# Best Rigging Rope For Natural/False Crotch, Pulling Trees Over, Tag Lines? 3 Strand?



## ApexTreeService (Nov 24, 2012)

Started out using rock climbing static kernmantle back in 2002 when I was new. The core provides the strength, while the cover provides the protection. Works perfect. You can beat on that rope all day, and the cover laughs at you. Mean while the core is untouched. Recently, been pulling over large trees with vehicles. This rope is too stretchy (nylon core). Started using stable braid. Awesome for pull lines. Problem is, it gets beat up FAST with bark contact. Even just sending a running bow line up over a limb to girth it off. Found a hank of Arbor-Plex 1/2" for $38 at surplus store, so put that in the kit. Just a few uses, 'furring' up, but also quit a bit of wear in my opinion for a few light uses.

Thinking of going old school 3 strand Samson 5/8" Tree Master 12,900lbs and 600' for $360 at my door! Samson says extremely durable, excellent abrasion resistance, economical, very strong, maximum wear life.

Can anyone talk me out of this or suggest a better product? Maybe it hockles, twists, too stretchy?

Main uses: Tag line, pulling over trees, natural crotch, works with blocks too. All around rope. I still have the Polydyne nylon core double braid for large dynamic.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 25, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Consider why you are thinking of moving in the opposite direction that experience takes most professional arborist.
> 
> Modern ropes, blocks and friction devices are a huge step forward. Most of what you are complaining about is the result of rope abuse.



I agree, I use blocks, double braid rope, and lowering devices. On the other hand, I am looking for the best rope for natural crotch rigging, setting tag lines from the ground (running bowline), basically a rope that will run over bark all day, be strong, have little to a medium stretch, last a long time, have a high breaking strength, and work wet. Two ropes I've found. 3 strand Arbor Master, and Sterling HTP.


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## Pelorus (Nov 25, 2012)

BlueStreak holds up really well to natural crotch rigging.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 25, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> BlueStreak holds up really well to natural crotch rigging.



I know, but only 8,000lbs or so. I would like a rope, I can tie to a back leaner weighing 9,000lbs, pull it over, and stay within the 20% WLL, yet run over the bark all day.


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## Pelorus (Nov 25, 2012)

The Lilliputians used some pretty small ropes to restrain ole Lemuel. Use a 3:1 or 4:1 or greater pulley system on your back leaners. Better still, use two ropes. Largest dia. rope in my inventory is 5/8 Stable braid, but I use 1/2' Blue Streak day in and day out for probably 90% of the removals I do.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 25, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> The Lilliputians used some pretty small ropes to restrain ole Lemuel. Use a 3:1 or 4:1 or greater pulley system on your back leaners. Better still, use two ropes. Largest dia. rope in my inventory is 5/8 Stable braid, but I use 1/2' Blue Streak day in and day out for probably 90% of the removals I do.



I would also like to account for residual rope strength, and knots. A knot will take 30%, wear and tear over a few months who knows how much. Now, you have a back leaner, and on the same hand you don't want to exceed 20% the break strength so as not to exceed wll and overly stress the rope. Pulley is fine, but the final single rope going to the tree has to be rated. Last pull, I used both ends of 10,000 stable braid, over hook. 20,000lbs, minus rope wear, running bowline on limbs, and bend over truck hook. Handled it no prob. 

But..., was queasy about wear on rope running it up over limb with running bowline. I need something tough!


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 25, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> The Lilliputians used some pretty small ropes to restrain ole Lemuel. Use a 3:1 or 4:1 or greater pulley system on your back leaners. Better still, use two ropes. Largest dia. rope in my inventory is 5/8 Stable braid, but I use 1/2' Blue Streak day in and day out for probably 90% of the removals I do.



I know Blue Streak is awsome. But..., I want something I can hook to top of 10,000lb elm and pull over. After full day of lowering other trees. Blue Streak is strong, but would you trust it to pull over 10,000 against tree over house? It would do it, but, what risk? Now let's compare price. 600', 12,900lbs, extreme abrasion resistance, for $360 can any line match that?


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## Pelorus (Nov 25, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> you don't want to exceed 20% the break strength so as not to exceed wll and overly stress the rope. QUOTE]
> 
> Going to 50% of the break strength is still gonna give you +/- 100 cycles to failure. Mebbe less; mebbe more; mebbe a lot more. I haven't got the inclination or disposition to keep a log of how many times I applied such and such a load to a rope. If it is starting to look ratty, it gets relegated to tag line duty.


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## ckliff (Nov 25, 2012)

That 5/8 3-strand is more difficult to tie good knots. I really like it for my lanyard though. It is easy to splice.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 25, 2012)

You can get a static kernmantle rope like used in the fire service. 10000 lb mbs. I use a piece of 1/2" alot for natural crotch, even after alot of use it doesnt show much wear. Only bad thing is that it is a stiffer rope, so you have to make sure you set your knots good. You should be able to get it from any place that sells rescue ropes. You can even get it in 5/8"

Here is the specs and discription of the rope rescue source sells:

1/2" New England KM III Static Kernmantle Rope - 150 Feet

New England KM III Static Kernmantle rope features a composite construction of nylon and polyester fibers, providing an excellent line for rescue operations. KM III provides high tensile strength and low stretch, with good heat, chemical and abrasion resistance. The rope is torque-balanced for no spin when rappelling. It is a balanced construction, with the cover and core each representing 50% of the total weight. The cover is made of continuous filament polyester, braided over a continuous filament nylon core. This provides excellent handling and knot-holding characteristics, as well as rugged protection from abrasion and cutting.

Construction: Block creel, low-stretch (static) kernmantle construction.

Made in the USA

Fiber: The core is 100% nylon and the sheath is 100% polyester.

Sheath: Braided polyester jacket, 32 carrier, two-over- two construction with half of the strands having a Z-twist and half having an S-twist

Elongation: 1/2" - 3% at 450 lbs.

Temperature: Melt point 480 degree F (248 degrees C) Certification: UL Classified to current NFPA standards,CE approved to prEN 1891

Tensile strength:10,000 lbs.(44kN)


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## treeman75 (Nov 25, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I know Blue Streak is awsome. But..., I want something I can hook to top of 10,000lb elm and pull over. After full day of lowering other trees. Blue Streak is strong, but would you trust it to pull over 10,000 against tree over house? It would do it, but, what risk? Now let's compare price. 600', 12,900lbs, extreme abrasion resistance, for $360 can any line match that?



Where are you getting it for 360?


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## Seemlessstate (Nov 25, 2012)

Yale Dynasorb, or as I call is "dinosaur" is great stuff. It is some of the best rope to tie knots with that I've used. very resistant to abrasion, and is pretty stout stuff. 5/8 is rated at 18,000 and 1/2 is 10,500. 

it does have some stretch to it, as i guess it was kind of designed to snatch big logs. not much more than stable braid.

I've been really impressed with the stuff. I have used all sorts of lines, mostly stable braid for rigging, but its been working great.


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## no tree to big (Nov 25, 2012)

we were given a couple of those 3 strand ropes as replacements to our wore out double braids I hate um they twist up real bad. when your trying to let something run through the porty and you get a handful of twist it can try and rip your pinky off or if that makes it through your hand and slams into the porty well it stops and if you need it to run because your say playing the swing on a piece well that sucks cause now its swinging back into the obsticle


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 25, 2012)

treeman75 said:


> Where are you getting it for 360?



Wes Spur is having a black friday sale all weekend. 20% off one item. $440 retail.

I agree with the above post that static kernmantle is an excellent rope. I started off using that for many years. I'm also trying to figure out the most economical choice for a general purpose. If I bought a spool of 5/8 Tree Master for $360, that gives me 3x200' at $120 each. Or 4x150' at $90 each. That's pretty cheap.

If cost were not an issue, I would definately go with Sterling 1/2" HTP static kernmantle. 9,000lb, and lower stretch (tag line, pull line) than other kernmantles-2% at 10%MBS. Plus, you can choose from 7 different colors so you could for instance get red to signify not a life line, etc. A 600' spool of that is $684. Almost double.

Not sure if I am going to get the Tree Master now after a few comments about poor knotability, and twisting problems. Any old timers out there that still use it and like it after it's broken in?


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## cftc09 (Nov 26, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I agree, I use blocks, double braid rope, and lowering devices. On the other hand, I am looking for the best rope for natural crotch rigging, setting tag lines from the ground (running bowline), basically a rope that will run over bark all day, be strong, have little to a medium stretch, last a long time, have a high breaking strength, and work wet. Two ropes I've found. 3 strand Arbor Master, and Sterling HTP.



I wouldn't run a natural rigging system. We use blocks all the time it's less stress on the rope, and the guy handling rope. Now for a rope that'll do pratically anything you want I run the Yale Bull Rigger Line 5/8 on sherrilltree,it'll pull anything and handle just about anything that you'll put on ur rigging system. Yale Bull Rigger 16mm Rope : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment Hope this helps.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

cftc09 said:


> I wouldn't run a natural rigging system. We use blocks all the time it's less stress on the rope, and the guy handling rope. Now for a rope that'll do pratically anything you want I run the Yale Bull Rigger Line 5/8 on sherrilltree,it'll pull anything and handle just about anything that you'll put on ur rigging system. Yale Bull Rigger 16mm Rope : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment Hope this helps.



How well does it wear though? I know the braid is really loose. I can get a 600' 5/8 spool of it for $290, with a free RopeBos 250 rope bag. That's after they do their price buster math against BaileysOnline pricing ($360). My other choice would be Yale's orange Buzz Line (Yales version of TrueBlue), 1/2", 7,400lbx600' for $348.


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## chief116 (Nov 26, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I know Blue Streak is awsome. But..., I want something I can hook to top of 10,000lb elm and pull over. After full day of lowering other trees. Blue Streak is strong, but would you trust it to pull over 10,000 against tree over house? It would do it, but, what risk? Now let's compare price. 600', 12,900lbs, extreme abrasion resistance, for $360 can any line match that?



Whats more important to you, price or quality? if you are trusting the cheapest piece of #### rope you can get free shipping on to pull over a 10,000 lb elm tree, you're a moron. Don't be a fraid to pay a little bit more for a good, quality rope. I've used blue streak to do some incredibly stupid rigging and it has never let me down. Have i snapped it? yup (pulling a standing 40ft oak butt against its lean with an f350), but I was pushing the limits of a hank of rope that gave me all it had to offer.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

chief116 said:


> Whats more important to you, price or quality? if you are trusting the cheapest piece of #### rope you can get free shipping on to pull over a 10,000 lb elm tree, you're a moron. Don't be a fraid to pay a little bit more for a good, quality rope. I've used blue streak to do some incredibly stupid rigging and it has never let me down. Have i snapped it? yup (pulling a standing 40ft oak butt against its lean with an f350), but I was pushing the limits of a hank of rope that gave me all it had to offer.



No I'm not talking about rope made in China, everything I have mention is all high quality. Guess I'm just sick of my double braids taking a beating if bark so much as looks at them. You have to fishing pole it up the trunk so it doesn't run on bark, cut the ends off after so much knot tying/lowering with a half hitch/running bowline. Really I'm just wondering if the Samson 3 strand Tree Master is a pain or not. With exceptional abrasion resistance, and 12,900 MBS, it would be good as a pull line, tag line, natural rigging where it would be quicker to lower light limbs off other limbs as opposed to breaking out all the gear.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

Got some answers from Yale today. 5/8 Bull Rigger (XTC12) is a 'good' rope (out of good, better, best), and price point (economical). It does have polypropylene core that the polyester fibers are wrapped around. Polypropylene has a low melting point, so the rope will glaze (surface fibers melt) if lowering at mach speed or high friction. Nonetheless, made by Yale, so highest quality fibers. It is a loose braid 12 strand construction, so if maximum abrasion resistance and life is needed they recommend XTC 16 strand. Very durable all polyester 16 strand braid over a core of polyester fibers. They said Davey Tree uses 9/16" due to increased service life over 1/2". He said other companies use 5/8" for an all around rope, even the heavy rigging. 9/16" is rated at 7800lb, and 5/8" is rated at 10,000. This would be a nice line to run even to replace the double braid because you could natural crotch it for small stuff and still run the PortO.

I guess the point of the thread is what is the most ECONOMICAL, abrasion resistant, strongest rope with good manners. Tree Master 3 strand seemed like the logical choice with 12,900MBS at 5/8", hard lay, and only ~ $350 for 600'. I'm sure the 5/8" 16 strand is perfect, but, with premium prices.


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## Pelorus (Nov 26, 2012)

10,000 lb tensile @ 5/8" dia sucks when 1/2" Blue Streak is 8100lb.
I think you should buy a decent 5/8" double braid, forget about wrecking it on natural crotch abuse.
For a supposedly educated smart guy, you are coming across as being pretty dumb here. Just sayin'


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> 10,000 lb tensile @ 5/8" dia sucks when 1/2" Blue Streak is 8100lb.
> I think you should buy a decent 5/8" double braid, forget about wrecking it on natural crotch abuse.
> For a supposedly educated smart guy, you are coming across as being pretty dumb here. Just sayin'



That's what thinkers do, over think. Blue Streak is also only available in 8,100. I'm talking about 10,000 +. I know I can get a Husky 5/8" nylon core double braid rope 18,000 lbs. Problems with that..., uneven load between core and cover from natural crotch friction can lead to unexpected failure. Rapid abrasion degradation. High cost. Heavy rope. The point of the thread is to explore ECONOMICAL, high abrasion resistant (long lasting), and strong rope. Hard lay 3 strand from Samson is 12,900lbs strong, and very abrasion resistant, and cheaper than any other option. 

Just wondering if 3 strand is ok to work with. Guess I'll get a hank only, and try it out.

I'm not looking for my main rigging line. I have Stable Braids, Polydynes, and an Arbor Plex I just started out using. Just exploring new options for an economical long life rope.

Thanks for the compliment


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> 10,000 lb tensile @ 5/8" dia sucks when 1/2" Blue Streak is 8100lb.
> I think you should buy a decent 5/8" double braid, forget about wrecking it on natural crotch abuse.
> For a supposedly educated smart guy, you are coming across as being pretty dumb here. Just sayin'



I guess Davey Tree is pretty dumb for using this exact same rigging line? Blue Streak is great, but high in cost.


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## treemandan (Nov 26, 2012)

You can work the crap out of thick 3 strand and it will work the crap out of you. Its good " slop" rope and its good to have around.


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## Pelorus (Nov 26, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I guess Davey Tree is pretty dumb for using this exact same rigging line? Blue Streak is great, but high in cost.



Why the requirement for natural crotch rigging of loads requiring a 10,000 + lb rope? I try to limit such lowering to lower weight stuff cause I care about my rigging. Guess I need to re-read this entire thread to see if it can make sense tyhe second time round.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> Why the requirement for natural crotch rigging of loads requiring a 10,000 + lb rope? I try to limit such lowering to lower weight stuff cause I care about my rigging. Guess I need to re-read this entire thread to see if it can make sense tyhe second time round.



Yes, re-read. Natural crotch few hundred pound limbs down, but be an all around rope for sending a running bowline up to a crotch I have set with my throwline for pulling over trees leaning over targets. All the while being cheap, and abrasion proof. I have been using my Stable Braid for pulling, but just the act of sending it up via running bowline via ground tears the sheath up pretty bad. I know you can sacrifice the double braids, but I like to be easy on my equipment and spend less $.


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## Pelorus (Nov 26, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Yes, re-read. Natural crotch few hundred pound limbs down, but be an all around rope for sending a running bowline up to a crotch I have set with my throwline for pulling over trees leaning over targets. All the while being cheap, and abrasion proof. I have been using my Stable Braid for pulling, but just the act of sending it up via running bowline via ground tears the sheath up pretty bad. I know you can sacrifice the double braids, but I like to be easy on my equipment and spend less $.



Makes sense now. And here I thought you were just being a cheap bozo! My bad.
I agree the Stable Braid gets quickly chewed up running over rough bark. Been there; done that.
Wouldn't a static kernmantle (mentioned by another poster) best suit your specs?


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 26, 2012)

To be honest I have only been in the residential tree service for 10 years, and been using static kenmantle rope for lowering (even with the port) until 2008 or so. Then bought the double braids, and very surprised at how sensitive they are to abrasion! So I'm use to a rope that is rugged enough for rock climbing, but with excellent energy absorption properties. Draw backs: Work hardens due to cover milking back and forth, poor knotability, and not splicable.

I am not use to lowering one branch and seeing my rope tore up from that one run cause I natural crotched it or it rubbed the trunk somewhere. I have a PMI Classis EZ bend static kernmantle that is 4 years old with negligible cover wear after doing anything I want to it.


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## cftc09 (Nov 27, 2012)

My rope works real well. The only reason we had to replace it was cause somone was stupid and broke it at hurricane gustav. If you aint goin bull rigger I'd go sixteen strand. Also I'd look at copying sherrill trees knotless rigging kit. Thats what we've done and it saves a ton of time and makes the small stuff easy, real easy. But thats my opinion.


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## KenJax Tree (Nov 27, 2012)

Knotless is the way to go for me, sometimes you can send 3-4 down at once or have 3-4 more ready to go while the rope is coming back up.


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## cftc09 (Nov 27, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Knotless is the way to go for me, sometimes you can send 3-4 down at once or have 3-4 more ready to go while the rope is coming back up.



Not only can you send 3-4 but its pretty quick seting up the porty or while the guyis undoing the straps on the ground the guy in the treecan be putting straps on another set branches. But yes knotless is the way to go I've been running it for two years now.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 27, 2012)

Guess the point of the thread has been side tracked. Thanks for all the advice. I do use knot-less rigging, runner loops to girth hitch 4 small limbs at a time, I do use port o wraps and tailboard blocks. I also will isolate a 4"-6" crotch at the top of the tree with my throw line and use that to lower the whole tree without having to set a false removable crotch from the ground, or climb to the top to place the block. Here's a good scenario. Let's say you have a 45' Colorado Spruce to remove. 2,3, maybe 4" diameter limbs at the bottom, next to the house. You don't want the butt end of these to bust a window, so you lower it all. Now, your not going to climb to the top through very thick canopy to set a block to save friction are you? I'm going to toss my throw line over the entire top. Drag my lowering line up and over, and go to work with my running end while the friction through all the canopy will lower few hundred pound limbs just fine. If I want to girth hitch 4 or 5 limbs with runner loops as the limbs get smaller then fine. Friction on lowering line can be increased by running through the port o at the bottom. Still natural crotching at the top. Are you going to run your precious 'double braids' time and time again 'natural crotch' lowering (with or without) the port? No. You want to use the most affordable, abrasion resistant lowering line you can. Double braids are good ropes, but not the best choice for tree service due to their sensitive cover (the mantle). They weren't even designed for tree service. Did you know the energy absorbing Polydyne nylon core polyester sheath double braid from Yale was in in service 30+ years ago mooring boats to docks?

Looks like a few choices. 16 strand for great abrasion. 12 strand such as TrueBlue or Buzz are almost as good for abrasion, but may be more economical (Buzz) than 16 strand. Either way, still expensive. My original question: I have never used three strand, it's cheap and tough. Wondering if it works well. Sounds like it hockles, twists with port use, etc., so maybe not a good choice.

So what is the best all around that will save time and $? I think like Yale Cordage said it would be the 9/16" or 5/8" climbing line XTC16. Not as strong as a double braid polyester, but much more energy absorbing (like a spring), and much more resistant to abrasion. I run my ropes over bark all the time in many different scenarios. Double braid sailing rope is just not abrasion resistant at all. We need an industry designed rigging rope. Much like a static kernmantle rescue rope (very tough mantle, load bearing core), but with a more knotable core twist/cover braid, low stretch at loads up to 10% for efficient pulling/lifting, yet still good ultimate energy absorbing characteristics for the dynamic loads. Steam stabilized yarn so the cover doesn't work harden over time and you end up with an unknotable wire rope. Non milking as well. Preferably all polyester so it doesn't weaken when wet like nylon (storm damage cleanup) or glaze like poly-olefin. Bright color for safety and quick diameter identification. Non rotational, non hockling.

I run ropes over bark all the time. If I have one limb 10' up were removing cause it's too low or something, and the tree species has thick bark, I will natural rig it for speed sake (in back yard away from your cozy bucket truck). First toss throw line over higher limb. Pull rigging rope over. Next, toss throw line over limb to be removed. Pull working end of lowering line over limb to be removed, but keep hold of lowering rope so that when you get the working end you can tie a running bowline around it. Now, take a half wrap around the tree, reach up with motorized pole saw, cut the limb and finish with proper cut for the stub. Now wasn't that faster than setting your climbing line, getting out your climbing gear, installing a block after you climb up to the rigging point, cow hitching the port o, getting the lowering line, clipping on your climbing saw, etc.? I used one rope, a throwline, and my pole saw. Many reasons not to use a double braid and a port.


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## Pelorus (Nov 28, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Let's say you have a 45' Colorado Spruce to remove. 2,3, maybe 4" diameter limbs at the bottom, next to the house. You don't want the butt end of these to bust a window, so you lower it all. Now, your not going to climb to the top through very thick canopy to set a block to save friction are you? I'm going to toss my throw line over the entire top. Drag my lowering line up and over, and go to work with my running end while the friction through all the canopy will lower few hundred pound limbs just fine. If I want to girth hitch 4 or 5 limbs with runner loops as the limbs get smaller then fine. Friction on lowering line can be increased by running through the port o at the bottom. Still natural crotching at the top. Are you going to run your precious 'double braids' time and time again 'natural crotch' lowering (with or without) the port? .



My answer: Yes. Your 45" Colorado shrub is an absolutely perfect match for Blue Streak. It's like they were made for each other, and the relationship will last for a long time with very little detriment to the rope.
btw, why are you even bothering with a throwline for that scenario? Lower the limbs using the next set (or two, or three) above the ones getting lowered. It just sounds like you have far more "theory" than actual real world "practice", and I think your rock climbing background may be an actual handicap to common sense tree work.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 28, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> My answer: Yes. Your 45" Colorado shrub is an absolutely perfect match for Blue Streak. It's like they were made for each other, and the relationship will last for a long time with very little detriment to the rope.
> btw, why are you even bothering with a throwline for that scenario? Lower the limbs using the next set (or two, or three) above the ones getting lowered. It just sounds like you have far more "theory" than actual real world "practice", and I think your rock climbing background may be an actual handicap to common sense tree work.



I have found it quicker to set the lowering line once, than to constantly reroute it over the one above it, the one above it, the one above it, the one above it....

I can do any job you can safer and faster, I will bet my life on it so shut your ass up. If you don't have anything positive, then go back to your lame life. It's not always the 100' trees. And when it is, guess what, call in the crane redneck. You even know what polyester is..., or where your rope came from? How is your rope braided?? Yeah, I do 45' shrubs all day every day. That's what I do. Blue Spruce LLC. Yeah, you guessed it. Let me guess, you only do 1000' Avatars, right?


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 28, 2012)

*#####*



Pelorus said:


> My answer: Yes. Your 45" Colorado shrub is an absolutely perfect match for Blue Streak. It's like they were made for each other, and the relationship will last for a long time with very little detriment to the rope.
> btw, why are you even bothering with a throwline for that scenario? Lower the limbs using the next set (or two, or three) above the ones getting lowered. It just sounds like you have far more "theory" than actual real world "practice", and I think your rock climbing background may be an actual handicap to common sense tree work.



Your such an ignorant ####. So you only work on trees 1,000 feet and taller? I trim parkstrip 15' trees, all the way up to how tall a species grow. I made an example, of where one would want to simply use a single line for quick rigging. Actual tree work? What is your experience? Your a lame. You have any credentials? I will out rig, out cut, out think you loser. I invent ####. You, follow me #####. Yeah let's keep redirecting your lowering line over the one above it, the one above it, when I set my lowering line once. You should try some of my techniques. You even know how to set a false removable crotch from the ground? Explain it, and I'll praise you. Do you even know what that is? That's a pulley, girthed around a high limb, with a lowering line in the pulley, and a tag line connected to the pulley so you can retrieve it after you are done--from the ground. Do you know why that might be advantageous???


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 28, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> My answer: Yes. Your 45" Colorado shrub is an absolutely perfect match for Blue Streak. It's like they were made for each other, and the relationship will last for a long time with very little detriment to the rope.
> btw, why are you even bothering with a throwline for that scenario? Lower the limbs using the next set (or two, or three) above the ones getting lowered. It just sounds like you have far more "theory" than actual real world "practice", and I think your rock climbing background may be an actual handicap to common sense tree work.



I never said Blue Streak, you ignorant cu##. 
Rope jumping. The act of jumping 1000' off a cliff with nothing but static kernmantle and dynamic rock climbing rope to arrest your fall. I think rock climbing is a little ahead of tree climbing. Tree climbing uses all borrowed technologies. Caribiners, rope from boating, tenex from boating, blocks from construction.


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## ApexTreeService (Nov 28, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> My answer: Yes. Your 45" Colorado shrub is an absolutely perfect match for Blue Streak. It's like they were made for each other, and the relationship will last for a long time with very little detriment to the rope.
> btw, why are you even bothering with a throwline for that scenario? Lower the limbs using the next set (or two, or three) above the ones getting lowered. It just sounds like you have far more "theory" than actual real world "practice", and I think your rock climbing background may be an actual handicap to common sense tree work.



Lets imagine a rigging rope that has appeared from the top of the tree, and will lower every limb until I reach the top. Now, picture your rope. One you have to constantly throw higher just to rig 3, 4 limbs. What is going to be faster? If you see it any other way than mine, you are a cu$# and deserve to be making $12 an hour like you are. Time is $ idiot. No wonder you are Canadian. Fag#ot french.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2012)

Well if natural rigging three strand is gonna be best choice. I use new England 3 strand many times as I hate to carry blocks and stuff up with me. I however am knotless as it is so much faster. However if making a money cut on a 3k limb I set block and tie a bowline!


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## beastmaster (Nov 28, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Lets imagine a rigging rope that has appeared from the top of the tree, and will lower every limb until I reach the top. Now, picture your rope. One you have to constantly throw higher just to rig 3, 4 limbs. What is going to be faster? If you see it any other way than mine, you are a cu$# and deserve to be making $12 an hour like you are. Time is $ idiot. No wonder you are Canadian. Fag#ot french.



Boy don't want to piss you off. But back on topic, me and every other tree man used three strand 20 years ago for the most part for everything. I just ordered 200' of 1/2''. I use it for lowing branches over natural crotches. It'll ware for ever, Its cheap priced, and so long as you don't exceed the wll it'll last ,same as any other rope. I have no problem tying knots in it. It's easy to splice, I like to splice a snap on one end. I also ordered 200' of 5/8'' husky.($200.00)The 3 strand is for grunt work, that way I save my other,"better," ropes for use with a pulley. You stay with in the working weight of the rope no matter what kind or brand it'll preform well. You can run 3 strand through the mud ,over a big rough limb, and it'll take it. Like treemandan said,"it has its place."


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## ropensaddle (Nov 28, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I never said Blue Streak, you ignorant cu##.
> Rope jumping. The act of jumping 1000' off a cliff with nothing but static kernmantle and dynamic rock climbing rope to arrest your fall. I think rock climbing is a little ahead of tree climbing. Tree climbing uses all borrowed technologies. Caribiners, rope from boating, tenex from boating, blocks from construction.



Not to disappoint you but your in error here, trees been around longer than ships and man had to learn to deal with them before making boats. Moving objects with rope was likely first employed by ancients in the making of pyramids. Tree climbing and rigging has many variable loads and takes time to master. No one just jumps into it from mountain climbing and instantly knows all! I'm not looking to start a fight but just letting you know that downplaying professional tree work is the wrong direction to take here imo.


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## Pelorus (Nov 28, 2012)

Mr. Apex: your method of dealing with your hypothetical 45' shrub is BS even if it sounds efficient on paper. I think a lot of the other stuff you say you have done is also a load of BS.
btw, 90% of my work consists of removals on spurs, and I've been at it since 1987.


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## deevo (Nov 28, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Lets imagine a rigging rope that has appeared from the top of the tree, and will lower every limb until I reach the top. Now, picture your rope. One you have to constantly throw higher just to rig 3, 4 limbs. What is going to be faster? If you see it any other way than mine, you are a cu$# and deserve to be making $12 an hour like you are. Time is $ idiot. No wonder you are Canadian. Fag#ot french.



So what kind of throw line do you use? Easy on the language here big guy:msp_scared: I am not French either.


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## newsawtooth (Nov 28, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Your such an ignorant ####. So you only work on trees 1,000 feet and taller? I trim parkstrip 15' trees, all the way up to how tall a species grow. I made an example, of where one would want to simply use a single line for quick rigging. Actual tree work? What is your experience? Your a lame. You have any credentials? I will out rig, out cut, out think you loser. I invent ####. You, follow me #####. Yeah let's keep redirecting your lowering line over the one above it, the one above it, when I set my lowering line once. You should try some of my techniques. You even know how to set a false removable crotch from the ground? Explain it, and I'll praise you. Do you even know what that is? That's a pulley, girthed around a high limb, with a lowering line in the pulley, and a tag line connected to the pulley so you can retrieve it after you are done--from the ground. Do you know why that might be advantageous???



The lady doth protest too much, methinks.


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## arborjockey (Dec 5, 2012)

For natural crotching small conifers (under 120'), with lots of limbs, the rock climbing rope is actually a good idea. That tight ass kermantel jacket is bullet proof. 10mm so its light and easy to handle. No joke i have one from 10 years ago that visually still looks ok. Its also static so theirs no stretch which I prefer with small stuff. 

I also dont tie but one knot when cutting 5-10 braches at a time in those trees(when the job call for it). just 1/2 hitch em'. 

Also Im using blocks in the tree as least as possible lately. going back up to get them sucks. 

we make good $ why is price such a factor. if i burn up a rope in a year but it saved me time to get 2 other jobs at the end of the year im thousands ahead. 10 minutes a day makes a huge deal at the end of the year. 

BTW is he asking or telling. 
opcorn:


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## ApexTreeService (Dec 5, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Not to disappoint you but your in error here, trees been around longer than ships and man had to learn to deal with them before making boats. Moving objects with rope was likely first employed by ancients in the making of pyramids. Tree climbing and rigging has many variable loads and takes time to master. No one just jumps into it from mountain climbing and instantly knows all! I'm not looking to start a fight but just letting you know that downplaying professional tree work is the wrong direction to take here imo.



Ancient people did not rig down trees from within the canopy with blocks, ropes, and lowering devices. Not that I have heard of. They cut once at the base. Then they built boats from them, used them as rollers for big stones, and other building uses.


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## ApexTreeService (Dec 6, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> Mr. Apex: your method of dealing with your hypothetical 45' shrub is BS even if it sounds efficient on paper. I think a lot of the other stuff you say you have done is also a load of BS.
> btw, 90% of my work consists of removals on spurs, and I've been at it since 1987.



I do not lie. What have I done that is BS? Try it next time. Toss your throw line, up over a 60' spruce, pile hitch (you know what that is?) the running end of the throw line to the working end of your lowering line and haul your lowering line up and over the APEX, and down to hand level. Now, you have a lowering rope from above, which does not require any resetting. Also useful when you want to pull that 60' shrub over. What is the quickest way to set a tag line at the very top to pull it over against lean? Throw your throw line over, drag your pull line over same direction via pile hitch, then tie working end of pull line to trunk at standing height via running bowline. Now, you have running bowline, from there going straight up trunk, and over top of tree, and down to your alpine butterfly knot that is hooked to your truck. Once you place your wedge cut (1/3), and your back cut to leave appropriate hinge width (5-10%), pull tree over!

You can do something the wrong way your entire life. It's not until someone comes up with a better way you ask yourself "what was I thinking?"


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## ApexTreeService (Dec 6, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.



Si Senor. Simple defense mechanism employed by lesser-then-thow inferior humans. See hater-ism, name calling, and other elementary ridiculous thought processes perpetuated by the ignorant. I'll lead, you follow and shut the hell up. Get an education instead of drinking beer and playing ####.


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## arborjockey (Dec 6, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I do not lie. What have I done that is BS? Try it next time. Toss your throw line, up over a 60' spruce, pile hitch (you know what that is?) the running end of the throw line to the working end of your lowering line and haul your lowering line up and over the APEX, and down to hand level. Now, you have a lowering rope from above, which does not require any resetting. Also useful when you want to pull that 60' shrub over. What is the quickest way to set a tag line at the very top to pull it over against lean? Throw your throw line over, drag your pull line over same direction via pile hitch, then tie working end of pull line to trunk at standing height via running bowline. Now, you have running bowline, from there going straight up trunk, and over top of tree, and down to your alpine butterfly knot that is hooked to your truck. Once you place your wedge cut (1/3), and your back cut to leave appropriate hinge width (5-10%), pull tree over!
> 
> You can do something the wrong way your entire life. It's not until someone comes up with a better way you ask yourself "what was I thinking?"



How do you know your rope isnt over a pinky size branch thats snaps at that wrong moment ? oh its only 60' never mind. did you cut and paste that 1/3 and 5-10% out of a handbook?opcorn:


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## ApexTreeService (Dec 6, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> How do you know your rope isnt over a pinky size branch thats snaps at that wrong moment ? oh its only 60' never mind. did you cut and paste that 1/3 and 5-10% out of a handbook?opcorn:



Are there only pinky size limbs in the entire tree? Sure the first 3 or 4 feet will be sparse with vegetation, that's why your groundy throws on the 5:1 via Valdotaine Tresse style mechanical advantage pulley on the lowering line and takes up about a 1000 lbs slack on the first lowering line: to set the line! That is, if you care like you. No, I did not cut and paste. I learned how to fell large timber as a wild land fire fighter. Red carded fire fighter, and certified tree feller. Let me ask you expert, on a dead Siberian Elm tree 4' in diameter, how large would your hinge be?


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 6, 2012)

I'll just mention that I switched to pulleys for two reasons:

I hired a good climber I have learned a lot from who always uses them, and i wrecked a 200 ft. piece of 5/8 yellow stable braid Samson, which had the shell slip an inch or so the first time I used it even with a pulley (lowering a 25 fir top -- no big deal). Then I used it a second time, lowering around 6 oak limbs using natural crotches (this was before I hired the climber) and had it really cut loose -- you could just pull it apart. 

So I tried sending it back, and got nowhere. Before i sent it back, I had cut a small piece to use to haul some logs out of a ditch, and threw that in too -- and the Samson rep said (in a letter -- never did manage to talk to anyone) that the rope failed because I cut it with a knife, leaving it unsealed, instead of with the melt-cutter thing. And this after I wrote a long letter describing exactly what happened, and even included a CD with pics of me rigging the top and using the rope for the first time with a pulley!!:msp_mad:

I have 1/2, 5/8. and 7/8, stable braid as well as 5/8 three strand (actually, I thing the 1/2 is technically something else). I use it all with pulleys, although I started out using the three strand without -- and it got fuzzy. I think the 7/8 is 28,000 lb. I have some specially hard 1/2 in. three strand for use with my arborist come-along.


No natural crotch rigging for me anymore -- one reason is control -- it's way easier to un-stick a hung up limb o re-direct a chunk if you can easily pull it up. Combine a pulley with a tag line, and you can move a piece anywhere you want.


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## ApexTreeService (Dec 6, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> How do you know your rope isnt over a pinky size branch thats snaps at that wrong moment ? oh its only 60' never mind. did you cut and paste that 1/3 and 5-10% out of a handbook?opcorn:



Serious: Have you never thrown your throw line over the top of a tree, hauled your bull rope over, then tied it to the trunk, then your truck, tensioned up, placed your cuts, and pulled the tree over????


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## murphy4trees (Dec 6, 2012)

I didn't take the tie to read more than half a page on this one.. Del's point about going with pulleys all the time is silly... There are plenty of situations to use them and plenty to go NC..

Looking for an everyday rope that can also be loaded over 10,000 lbs is also silly... 1/2" true blue is your work horse... when you need to pull a big back leaner over switch out to a bull rope.. Pretty simple.


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## treemandan (Dec 6, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Serious: Have you never thrown your throw line over the top of a tree, hauled your bull rope over, then tied it to the trunk, then your truck, tensioned up, placed your cuts, and pulled the tree over????



Its always best to test pull first before any cuts are made to seat the rope real good.


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## Pelorus (Dec 6, 2012)

What works good for person A may not be so good for person B.
I've seen throwlines turn into a schmozzle and cost a lot more time than just taking a ladder off a truck, or climbing the tree in the first place. I don't feel confident pulling over a conifer with a line set with a throwbag in the very top of a tree; I've busted out tops that way before.
But it is good to see that the 45' spruce has now grown to 60'


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## treemandan (Dec 6, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> I do not lie. What have I done that is BS? Try it next time. Toss your throw line, up over a 60' spruce, pile hitch (you know what that is?) the running end of the throw line to the working end of your lowering line and haul your lowering line up and over the APEX, and down to hand level. Now, you have a lowering rope from above, which does not require any resetting. Also useful when you want to pull that 60' shrub over. What is the quickest way to set a tag line at the very top to pull it over against lean? Throw your throw line over, drag your pull line over same direction via pile hitch, then tie working end of pull line to trunk at standing height via running bowline. Now, you have running bowline, from there going straight up trunk, and over top of tree, and down to your alpine butterfly knot that is hooked to your truck. Once you place your wedge cut (1/3), and your back cut to leave appropriate hinge width (5-10%), pull tree over!
> 
> You can do something the wrong way your entire life. It's not until someone comes up with a better way you ask yourself "what was I thinking?"



Don't really see anything wrong here.


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## arborjockey (Dec 6, 2012)

This guy thinks he invented tree work. Who do you think your talking to moron. 

To answer your question NO 90% of the time I don't pull a conifer over with a line, set by throwing the throw ball over the "apex of the tree. Other trees where I can visually see where my line is over a branch yes.....here's why I dont. I work around million dollar homes, hotel, condos, cars , and people. Can't believe im waisting my time with this.

1st let's start with this 60' spruce. You say theirs not much foliage below. What does that have to do with anything. You said its not over a little branch. Its over the top of the tree? Where Im from spruce trees branches get smaller as you go up. A. V.T knot on a mechanical advantage putting a 1000lbs of pressure ...who cares. 

So now your pulling on the top of tree, over something right....but what? a dead stub a little twig or maybe just pushing on some foliage. If it pops the tree sets back and compromises your (highly calculated) hinge and the tree go's? Wherever. I can climb and set that rope before you get that kite string out of your purse. 

Dead 4' elm who cares? Lots of factors going into a tree. "what you would do would?" I don't know I can't see the tree. Id use a chainsaw.

Now to your vast tree falling career. Read more post. Everyone here has learned from the BEST. My bossis a 3rd generation logger who has been cutting old growth since he was a teenager. We had a guy who had some piece of paper that he said only about 6 guys a year acquire. Its for falling extremely hazardouse,large burnt trees. He moved his hole family out from Colorado. He lasted 1 week.


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## treemandan (Dec 6, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> What works good for person A may not be so good for person B.
> I've seen throwlines turn into a schmozzle and cost a lot more time than just taking a ladder off a truck, or climbing the tree in the first place. I don't feel confident pulling over a conifer with a line set with a throwbag in the very top of a tree; I've busted out tops that way before.
> But it is good to see that the 45' spruce has now grown to 60'



You didn't do it right then...


jess sayin.


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## arborjockey (Dec 6, 2012)

3 strand rope is great....to tie your dog up with. It has 1 use in my book. 3\8's waxed to make it stiff as a bored then used as a chainsaw lanyard. The rigidity keeps it away fron the saw. 

As far as rigging. That junk got on the bus with manila rope and left town in the early 80's


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 6, 2012)

snip

Now to your vast tree falling career. Read more post. Everyone here has learned from the BEST. My bossis a 3rd generation logger who has been cutting old growth since he was a teenager. We had a guy who had some piece of paper that he said only about 6 guys a year acquire. Its for falling extremely hazardouse,large burnt trees. He moved his hole family out from Colorado. He lasted 1 week.[/QUOTE]

I believe that's called a "C-Class Faller" certificate, issued buy the US Forest Service. I helped teach the field class portion of the certificate with another guy who has taught it for years -- and he has said that HE learned a lot of his "tricks" from the old tin hat crew in the 70's. He also brags a lot and pisses people off -- but he ALSO has ability -- and still climbs even though he is losing his sight:msp_scared:

Logging (and arborist) rep is all about demonstrated ability and word-of mouth recommendation. I could brag about my book learnin' but that would ALSO be useless. 

Anyone thinks they're an expert faller, give 'em the beer can test and check out their stump. Expert rigger? See if they make any money or waste a lot of time in a cluster-f. Note -- I'm still learning -- I now own several ladders, abd yes, I once calmly took my knotted up throw line, cut it up, and set it on fire in the driveway


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## arborjockey (Dec 6, 2012)

TreeGuyHR said:


> snip
> 
> Now to your vast tree falling career. Read more post. Everyone here has learned from the BEST. My bossis a 3rd generation logger who has been cutting old growth since he was a teenager. We had a guy who had some piece of paper that he said only about 6 guys a year acquire. Its for falling extremely hazardouse,large burnt trees. He moved his hole family out from Colorado. He lasted 1 week.
> 
> ...


Hood river...hmmm we're in Tigard/Durham area
The 3G logger does 90% urban tree work. About 58 years old and climbs the snot out of big trees. I won 10 out of 11 events in some crappy arb class and went to him with a big head. He told me I do most my stuff wrong? No ones ever question my work. He was right. That was 7 years ago. He teaches me 2 new things every day. I love that guy.....Pastor George chrisman one of the best ...of the best.

We show up with really basic equipment and blow through jobs. Not that he doesn't have 7 skiders and a million dollars worth of equipment he chooses to keep it basic. And yeah no throw lines on his job. Not that I don't use them. But when He sees them he ask me where my kites at


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 6, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> Hood river...hmmm we're in Tigard/Durham area
> The 3G logger does 90% urban tree work. About 58 years old and climbs the snot out of big trees. I won 10 out of 11 events in some crappy arb class and went to him with a big head. He told me I do most my stuff wrong? No ones ever question my work. He was right. That was 7 years ago. He teaches me 2 new things every day. I love that guy.....Pastor George chrisman one of the best ...of the best.
> 
> We show up with really basic equipment and blow through jobs. Not that he doesn't have 7 skiders and a million dollars worth of equipment he chooses to keep it basic. And yeah no throw lines on his job. Not that I don't use them. But when He sees them he ask me where my kites at



The guy I am referring to is up near Seattle; I used to live in Seattle before coming down to the Gorge in 1999. Going way back, I worked for a tree service out of Sherwood OR in 1987, when I first moved to the west coast --- I'm originally from CT. That company, though, was a bit screwed up, even though it was run by a retired logger; he put no effort into training and safety gear, leading to high turnover in the crew. I was an old timer when I quit after a year.


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## newsawtooth (Dec 6, 2012)

ApexTreeService said:


> Si Senor. Simple defense mechanism employed by lesser-then-thow inferior humans. See hater-ism, name calling, and other elementary ridiculous thought processes perpetuated by the ignorant. I'll lead, you follow and shut the hell up. Get an education instead of drinking beer and playing ####.




I tried to get an education but it wouldn't take, that's why I'm here. Sure, I'll follow because I'm dazzled by your arboricultural acumen. But how are you going to lead if you're so wound up about running ropes over bark?


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## expertech (Dec 7, 2012)

I prefer 3 strand hard twist for rigging (sized appropriate for the load).


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## arborjockey (Dec 7, 2012)

Do the cactus thorns pull out of 3 strand easier ? :msp_tongue:


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## expertech (Dec 7, 2012)

arborjockey said:


> Do the cactus thorns pull out of 3 strand easier ? :msp_tongue:



Never roped out a cactus though I do offer the service!!!!


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