# Chainsaw Milling Gabon Ebony STIHL MS 660 or MS 880?



## Wenge Man (Apr 28, 2009)

I have just recently purchased a 36" Alaskan Log Mill, 9' EZ Rail guides, and Log Wizard Debarker/Planer for the purpose of chainsaw milling 29" diameter logs of Gabon Ebony. I will be spending a week in the rainforest cutting the logs into slabs and log half's to make the wood portable and carry them out of the forest with brute strength and man power.

I have narrowed my search for chainsaws down to two choices:

1.) STIHL MS 660 (91.6 cc)

2.) STIHL MS 880 (121.6 cc)

Being that Gabon Ebony is about 3 times as hard as red oak and 40% harder than mesquite or persimmons wood, I am trying to decide if 91cc chainsaw will do the job well or if I NEED to go with the monster saw to make the work easier.

Any advice? Any experience cutting ebony logs or lumber with chainsaw?
:greenchainsaw:


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## timberwolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Even with oak or hard maple 066 on CSM is not fast work when dealing with 2 foot plus logs. Seems the extra cost for the bigger saw would pay you back in productivity. 

I wonder if a chainsaw driven bandsaw like a ripsaw would be worth it? with that expensive lumber kerf would be a considderation too, though I think it would be only practical up to 20 inch logs.


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## woodsrunner (Apr 28, 2009)

*Go big*

If you don't have a saw already my advice would be to go for the 880. Once you start milling you won't stop and I can tell you from my experience bigger is better. The last thing you want to do is go on an expedition and not have enough saw. If it is harder than red oak go with the 880. Be sure to read up on all the CSM posts here before you jump in to this. Lots of good info posted here. Make sure you have enough spare pieces and parts when you go to the jungle. Sounds like fun, good luck.

Scott


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## BobL (Apr 29, 2009)

I suggest the 880, with 3/8 full comp rip profile SEMI-CHISEL chain . Anything else will go blunt too quickly.


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## Wenge Man (Apr 29, 2009)

*Chainsaw Milling Gabon Ebony STIHL MS 880- Ripping Chain?*

Thanks guys, looks like I will be going with the STIHL 880. Now I need to consider the type of chain I can/(will need to) use. The problem is I will be in dense forest with no access to electricity, so i will need to be able to sharpen my chains without a power source.

My first choice is a Carbide tip chain but they will need a formed diamond grinding wheel to be sharpened. I need a good chain that can be sharpened with a bar mount filer, and will not dull so easily. Can ripping chains be sharpened with a bar mount filer?

Any suggestions

** Thanks BobL, I received messages saying you would have the good milling advice for chainsaw. I also studied your "Milling with BIL Mill and the 880" post and found it helpful. Thanks to everyone.---Wenge Man**
:chainsawguy:


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## timberwolf (Apr 29, 2009)

No problem at all to hand file rip chain, dead easy, many bar mounted jigs will adjust to the angles and heights required.

I find that 12 volt die grinder style sharpeners work very well for ripping chain and seam to hold the edge longer than filed. I think the reason being less fracturing of the chrome edge when ground than filed. I gues though you won't even have 12 volt from a truck or 4 wheeler to help there though.

Yes, I actually looked at ground and filed cutters under magnification.


Carbide and milling... thats uncharted water to me.


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## Wenge Man (Apr 29, 2009)

*Advice: Stihl rmc chain vs granberg ripping chain?*

ADVICE: STIHL RMC CHAIN VS GRANBERG RIPPING CHAIN?

I have heard that the difference in performance is hardly noticeable and I have also heard the opposite. Does anyone have any experience or oppinion on the difference in the two chains?


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## timberwolf (Apr 29, 2009)

I imagine you will be going through a fair bit of chain, expensive if you buy "ripping chain" easy to make chain up how ever you like it.

I think what works best depends on the wood. Some filed at 0 deg with every second top plate knocked off work well, others simple resharpening by filing at 0, 5 or 10 deg with file set lower work well too.


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## Matildasmate (Apr 30, 2009)

*Ripping chain*

I use 3/8 semi-chisel chain sharpened to 15degs x 45degs , I also use carbide tipped chain on anything that is going to give me the willies , nothing will beat carbide . cheers MM


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## BobL (Apr 30, 2009)

I would advise against using carbide for ebony unless the logs are very dirty - you simply cannot get carbide chain sharp enough to make a fast cut and you will be laboring the saw all day long with this chain. Ebony also does not cut but tends to chip almost like cutting a lump of coal. To extablish the chip the in first place the cutter needs to be sharp, as soon as it goes blunt it will just skid across the surface and blunten the cutter.

Cutting a 29" ebony will be about as much effort as cutting 45" spotted gum ie hard work. The best solution for these suckers is razor sharp cutters and touch up after every slab. Be prepared for a heap of filing.


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## BlueRider (Apr 30, 2009)

I would probably opt for an older 075 over either the 660 or 880. I agree that the 880 would be better than the 660 but unless you have the ability to do a muffler mod similer to Bobs you will have excessve heat bouncing off the log anf back into the saw. this may or may not be acceptable in most milling situations but in a hot humid jungle it will definately not be a good thing. the exhaust on bioth the 660 and the 880 exits out the side and is directed towards the front(log). on the 075 (111cc) the exhaust exits out the side and towards the ground. for the first few cuts it is fine but then you will need to elivate the log to avoid heat from bouncing back into the saw. there are plenty of threads on here about using a portable hydrlic jack or a highlift jack to do the lifting. 

The old 075's are pretty bullet proof, but because there were discontinued over 20 years ago you would want to have a spare ignition module but other than that a good strong 075 would be as reliagle as a new 066 or 880. with ANY saw you will want to take a spare air filter ot two, a starter recoil spring and rope and possibly a carb kit, or at least some starter fluid to use to clean the carb with as well as a spare plug. If your are heavy handed with a scrench I would take a spare fuel and oil cap as I have broken one and without it the saw is useless. ALso take along good quality tools to do the repairs you may need as well as plenty of spare screws and bolts for the saw and mill as they do seem to lossen at the most inopertune time and being deep in the jungle is just inviting things to rattle loose and become lost,(blue locktite is good stuff)

I would also recomend running stihl ultra hp mix oil because of its performance and stihl bio+ bar oil. Crawling around in oily sawdust in the heat and humidity I would want the bio oil vs dino.

The humidity will rob your saw of power and is another reasdon to go with the biggest saw you can.

Carbide will not sharpen as sharp as carbon steel. this will translate into requiring more power. I would also not recomend using a dremel type sharpener. When using one it is impossible to keep the height of the cutters consistant and this is much more important in milling than in cross cutting which is what these sharpenters are designed for. With minimal practice a hand held file will provide better results with nearly the same speed. a bar mounted wheel sharpener is a different matter and woulf be a good choice. I think Silvy used to make a 12v one and it cost a small fortune years ago.

pay attention to the height of the rakers I have been running mine at .035" vs the stock .020-.025 with good results but, forgetting about them can really slow your cutting time.


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## Matildasmate (Apr 30, 2009)

BobL said:


> I would advise against using carbide for ebony unless the logs are very dirty - you simply cannot get carbide chain sharp enough to make a fast cut and you will be laboring the saw all day long with this chain. Ebony also does not cut but tends to chip almost like cutting a lump of coal. To extablish the chip the in first place the cutter needs to be sharp, as soon as it goes blunt it will just skid across the surface and blunten the cutter.
> 
> Cutting a 29" ebony will be about as much effort as cutting 45" spotted gum ie hard work. The best solution for these suckers is razor sharp cutters and touch up after every slab. Be prepared for a heap of filing.



You obviously have no idea what tungsten tip chain cuts like bob , it craps all over any other chain . Cheers MM


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## mtngun (Apr 30, 2009)

Matilda's Mate, if you have time, would you show us pics of your sharpening setup for carbide chain, and a close-up of a sharpened chain ?

No carbide chains or hardwood trees of any sort in my neighborhood, so I can't offer any advice on cutting ebony, I'm just curious to learn.

I do work with carbide in the machine shop and it can be sharpened just as sharp as steel, though it rarely comes that way from the factory. It takes a "micro-grain" carbide and a fine grit diamond sharpening wheel or stone.


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## Matildasmate (Apr 30, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Matilda's Mate, if you have time, would you show us pics of your sharpening setup for carbide chain, and a close-up of a sharpened chain ?
> 
> No carbide chains or hardwood trees of any sort in my neighborhood, so I can't offer any advice on cutting ebony, I'm just curious to learn.
> 
> I do work with carbide in the machine shop and it can be sharpened just as sharp as steel, though it rarely comes that way from the factory. It takes a "micro-grain" carbide and a fine grit diamond sharpening wheel or stone.



Hi Mtngun , I will take a couple of shots for you soon , its nothing special , just one of those 12 volt electric sharpeners {Sharp n eze or grind n joint} and a diamond stone , it take about 3-5 minutes to sharpen a 20" chain and about 10 to do a 36" chain .Cheers MM pics soon . Found a pic of the sharpener , doubt that I will be able get a closeup picture of a sharpened tooth , I cant figure out how the macro works on my digital camera. The instruction manual is about as handy as a burnt worm .


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## mtngun (May 1, 2009)

MM, are you saying that you sometimes use carbide chain for ripping hardwoods ? Does carbide chain cut longer before needing sharpening ? Any estimate of how much longer ?


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## Matildasmate (May 2, 2009)

mtngun said:


> MM, are you saying that you sometimes use carbide chain for ripping hardwoods ? Does carbide chain cut longer before needing sharpening ? Any estimate of how much longer ?



In hardwood a minimum of around 4-5 times as long , the manufacturers say around 10 , but I think they may be refering to softwood , which does not surprise me at all . Cheers MM


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## Wenge Man (May 2, 2009)

*Carbide Tip Chain*



Matildasmate said:


> In hardwood a minimum of around 4-5 times as long , the manufacturers say around 10 , but I think they may be refering to softwood , which does not surprise me at all . Cheers MM



When cutting ebony on a band sawmill it is advised to used carbide tip blades.

My first choice was the carbide tip chain, but in my STIHL catalog it says that their carbide tip chain can only be sharpened by formed grinding wheel. As I will be 4 or 5km (2.5-3miles) in dense forest, I will not have a power supply so I decided to go with the STIHL RMC chain and file the cutters to 40 deg and see how that works.


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## Matildasmate (May 2, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> When cutting ebony on a band sawmill it is advised to used carbide tip blades.
> 
> My first choice was the carbide tip chain, but in my STIHL catalog it says that their carbide tip chain can only be sharpened by formed grinding wheel. As I will be 4 or 5km (2.5-3miles) in dense forest, I will not have a power supply so I decided to go with the STIHL RMC chain and file the cutters to 40 deg and see how that works.



I just use my little 12 volt electric sharpener , but like you said no power supply makes that a little hard . Cheers MM


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## mtngun (May 2, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> As I will be 4 or 5km (2.5-3miles) in dense forest, I will not have a power supply so I decided to go with the STIHL RMC chain and file the cutters to 40 deg and see how that works.



Will you have access to 120V or 12V (car battery) back at your base camp/home ? If so, you could sharpen at home and then merely swap chains in the forest. You will want to have a few spare chains, regardless.

Regarding using a formed diamond grinding wheel, you probably don't want to hear this, but if your ebony adventures are profitable and if you decide to continue milling, eventually you will probably break down and buy an electric chain grinder, whether it is for standard chain or carbide chain. Most of us use a file to touch up chains in the forest, but after several filings, a grinder does a good job of restoring the correct angle and creating consistent cutter lengths. 

When you return, let us know what you learned, and how the sawing worked out for you.

Good luck !!!


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## BobL (May 2, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> When cutting ebony on a band sawmill it is advised to used carbide tip blades.
> 
> My first choice was the carbide tip chain, but in my STIHL catalog it says that their carbide tip chain can only be sharpened by formed grinding wheel. As I will be 4 or 5km (2.5-3miles) in dense forest, I will not have a power supply so I decided to go with the STIHL RMC chain and file the cutters to 40 deg and see how that works.



I don't understand the 40º? It is a very high top plate angle even for cross cutting. It will remove more wood than necessary which creates a bigger kerf and imposes a larger loading onto the saw and a lot of additional vibration, and give you a very rough finish.

I was getting and exception finish and a reasonable cutting speed on a slab recently and kept meaning to check the top plate angle because it looked very low. Today I checked the angle and it was between 2 and 4º! I'm not advocating this for ebony but 10º to 15º should be OK.


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## Matildasmate (May 2, 2009)

wenge man 4-5kms thats a long way to carry all your gear and then do your milling and cart all your gear and milled timber , that will be some adventure , you must be real fit mate , I hope all goes well for you , sounds like a massive job . Cheers MM


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## jake00 (May 18, 2009)

dont laugh... I use a ms390 with RMC chain to cut packs of brazilian cherry, ipe and cumaru at work (hardwood floor mill) a chain usually lasts a pack and a 1/2

a pack is usually 42" wide by about 36-42" high


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## Rob D (Jul 29, 2009)

I've tried both milling and cross cutting with carbide chain and can only really advise against it. I tried ripping carbide and cross cutting carbide in different hardnesses. In summary:

Yes you can easily sharpen it with a diamond wheel - that's not really the problem.

But you simply just cannot get it as sharp - that is an actual fact of science as carbide will not take an edge the same as steel.

But the main reason against it is the cost and the way you can write the entire chain off if you hit a nail or a rock. I wrote 3 whole chains off in a day on different trees.

Chain filing for a rip chain should be 5 degrees. Granberg chain I found to be the best http://www.granberg.com/ripping_chain.html but you have to sharpen correctly and it's critical to get the depth guages right to get advantage from it.


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## Mike Van (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm not a carbide expert for sure - I do know though that there are different grades of it. The stuff they use to tip tablesaw blades, router bits, etc - Will grind to a very keen edge. It will not however, stand up to dirt, stone, etc. worth a darn. It's a different grade used on the 'quick-vent' type saws the fireman use, these cut pretty slow in wood from what I've seen & heard. They use carbide for the cutting edges on rock drills too, really tough, stands up to impacting solid rock. Just between manufacturers, the quality of carbide will vary a lot. A saw blade made by Forrest is going to be a few steps ahead of one by Chaing Kai Chek.


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## Rob D (Jul 29, 2009)

I spent around a couple months looking on forums about carbide chain and despite the 97% of people out there who had tried it and then said forget it I had to go and try it myself. 

The way chainsaws cut and the way the tooth is shaped is very different to say a circular saw and other carbide tipped machinery. Yes carbide does take a sharp edge but it just is not as sharp as your normal steel/industrial crome chain. I could get the carbide tips sharp and they would cut nicely but not the same as a steel chain.

The firefighting chains will cut wood badly as they are not designed for it. And after cutting through a roof there is a good chance the chain will be written off... a very very good chance!. Well worth it for a getting a victim out of a burning house faster but when you're looking at £200 a chain not worth it when cutting wood.

Carbide will outlast steel by 5 times in the woods but only if you do not hit any small stones. Hit a nail in someones back garden tree and you will write off the chain whereas you can usually recover a steel chain.

I bought 6 chains of different cutter types and hardness and very quickly came to the conclusion there are very few applications for carbide in a tree surgery/forest situation. All in my opinion of course....!


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## dave k (Aug 1, 2009)

If you survive the experiance lets have loads of pics !
As for carbide chain, I have used it a great deal in conjunction with stump grinding and found that using it on a saw of more than say a 046 when you hit a nail or stone the carbide would just be ripped off ! as Rob D says not very cost effective. Also found that as the chain became dull it would cause a great deal of heat and boil the bar oil off very quickly.
So very good some of the time if you had dusty sandy timber to log but not much use for milling.


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## jandc (Aug 1, 2009)

I also think it's best to wear a dustmask while milling Ebony?


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## rfalk (Sep 3, 2009)

*Heck, I'll lend you my Stihl 075 AV powerhead in trade for some ebony.*



Wenge Man said:


> I have just recently purchased a 36" Alaskan Log Mill, 9' EZ Rail guides, and Log Wizard Debarker/Planer for the purpose of chainsaw milling 29" diameter logs of Gabon Ebony. I will be spending a week in the rainforest cutting the logs into slabs and log half's to make the wood portable and carry them out of the forest with brute strength and man power.
> 
> I have narrowed my search for chainsaws down to two choices:
> 
> ...



Heck, I'll lend you my Stihl 075 AV powerhead in trade for some ebony.


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## Wenge Man (Oct 11, 2009)

*Gabon Ebony- MS 880, RMC Chain.... Does The Job*

Thanks for all the tips guys, I went with the beast MS 880, RMC Chains, no dust mask, no generator, no communication. We are spending a few days in village suburb before going back to work.

More later, wanted to post some pics real quick as the connection here is not strong.

Wenge Man


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## mtngun (Oct 11, 2009)

Thanks for the pics.

Love that coffee colored sawdust ! ! !

When you have time, tell us what you have learned, what works well, what doesn't.


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## TheKid (Oct 11, 2009)

cool pix! can't wait to see more! would love also to hear how you made this all happen.


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## mikeb1079 (Oct 11, 2009)

*cooooool thread!*

this is one of the more interesting threads on the milling forum. hey wenge, not trying to get into your personal business, but how the heck do you get this opportunity? sounds awesome, btw. thanks for those pics, and keep em comin. also, care to elaborate on intended uses for the wood? 
cheers
mb


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## akennyd (Oct 21, 2009)

Cooool thread, I've never seen pics of a live ebony tree before. I had no idea the outer wood was light colored!!!

Thanks for the pics and as the others have said, please send more!

Kenny
John 3:16


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## rusty shackel (Oct 21, 2009)

exc. pictures , man that was a blast . those rubber boots must have been hot everybody else had sandles or no shoes on .

rusty


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## Wenge Man (Oct 24, 2009)

mikeb1079 said:


> this is one of the more interesting threads on the milling forum. hey wenge, not trying to get into your personal business, but how the heck do you get this opportunity? sounds awesome, btw. thanks for those pics, and keep em comin. also, care to elaborate on intended uses for the wood?
> cheers
> mb




My family is spread through western and central/eastern Africa. Most elder members are farmers and politicians. This is how I come to have the opportunity to legally harvest ebony in a quantity not to exceed 250 cubic meters per year.

My small brother, my cousin, and myself are looking for partners in USA to start a small business for furniture and lumber. We want to market lumber to small companies (mom n pop shop), woodworkers, and interior designers. One main focus is the promise to deliver under-market price points. A big thing for us is to give more people opportunity to buy/use/work with, ebony without paying the extreme high price.

We obviously cant cut enough to offer the good price to the whole country but many persons I think will benefit from what we are doing. For this reason we do not plan to advertise.

We plan to take 20% of revenue to invest in planting ebony, wenge, Ngola, and bois rouge for future generations. I want to start trend to tradition of cutting AND PLANTING. Many woods are rare because one only cuts but one does not plant. We will cut and plant. This philosophy has drawn support from, and created good relations with, different rural/indigenous villages.

The main thing is to plant trees, offer excellent wood at the good price below market, and gain exposure for my countrymen who are wicked artisan and woodworkers.

My small brother Wenge Jr. is in USA now, we are waiting for him to send us some supplies before returning to work. He will be joining the site soon.

I will post more photo today.

Thanks for interest and enthusiasm. Makes me think I'm not crazy for trying this.

:greenchainsaw:



also-

Yes it was extremely hot, but much cooler at night. I whore boots, some requested rubber boots, others whore sandal and barefoot. Most of my crew come from villages who make living partly by catching alligators (tough bunch).

MTN GUN,

More to come...


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## BobL (Oct 24, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> The main thing is to plant trees, offer excellent wood at the good price below market, and gain exposure for my countrymen who are wicked artisan and woodworkers.



I agree, cut one and plant 5 and at least one of those 5 should make it into a tree. 

How often are you sharpening?


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## mikeb1079 (Oct 24, 2009)

*wow*

awesome, awesome. been checking back to see when you'd be able to post some more photos/info.  i'm just jealous of this whole experience. that's a rad photo of that little canoe in the rainforest.


> The main thing is to plant trees, offer excellent wood at the good price below market, and gain exposure for my countrymen who are wicked artisan and woodworkers.


who could argue with such an excellent idea?!
good luck and keep those pics comin!


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## ray benson (Oct 24, 2009)

Very interesting photos.


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## Wenge Man (Dec 2, 2009)

*Cutter Filing? Anchorseal and shrinkwrap?*

Thank for all et positive feedback. Rains and camp floods have caused longer delays than we expected but we have successfully transported 13 cubic meters into two storage location to prepare for shipping. Applying anchorseal should be finished today, and we return to the forest to cut another 20 cubic meters.

This time we are going to square the boards, apply anchorseal, and wrap them in plastic. One importer from California said that this process will control surface and end checking. Has anyone heard of doing things this way?

On advice of a STIHL guy who has milled ebony with chainsaw we have been using 45 degree filing on the cutters. Cuts fast but a lot of skip patterns on the boards as a result.

I am wondering if I file them to 20 or 25 degrees will I get a better cut? Will this make the cutters dull faster?

Trying to post some pics but having difficulty with the connection….

Try again later tonight


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## Can8ianTimber (Dec 2, 2009)

Very Cool, I love the picture, personally I don't think I would take as much of the sap wood off. You are bound to get into some of the heartwood. Althought it is probably a very small amount, you are working with ebony and sawdust is like gold. 

Here is the only project I have ever done with ebony. I could not afford to do any more of it with ebony b/c it was so expensive. Woods are ebony, kingwood and maple burl.






One more pic


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## Wenge Man (Dec 2, 2009)

Can8ian Timber,

The chess board is excellent! I cannot see the other two photos on the message though.

Most of the trees were felled, and the sapwood removed with pick axes, before I arrived on location. When we return to the foret we will cut square planks. The ones with sapwood I will use for furniture. I will give the good price when the big quantity will arrive in February or March (USA). A very good price.

Ebony is expensive yes, but my partners in USA and I plan to sell at price that will lees than market so that talented woodworkers like yourself can use it for more projects.

That slab looks awesome too. I plan to make some live edge desks and tables with the ebony. I am complete novice though but my eyes are good to determine scale, consistency, and lines. I can draw objects from sight pretty well and I will be apprentice to some highly skilled craftsmen/artisan.

I want to lok at more of your projects. Excellent work!

The logs containing sapwood are for a 7'-8' wide desk and 10' dining table that will showcase the contrast.

I'm trying to load more pics before morning


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## mtngun (Dec 3, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> On advice of a STIHL guy who has milled ebony with chainsaw we have been using 45 degree filing on the cutters. Cuts fast but a lot of skip patterns on the boards as a result.
> 
> I am wondering if I file them to 20 or 25 degrees will I get a better cut? Will this make the cutters dull faster?


Most of us use 10 degrees on the top plate angle, but then, we don't cut ebony. All I can suggest is that you experiment and see what works best for you. 

Thank you for the excellent pictures. I hope your business venture is successful.


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## BobL (Dec 4, 2009)

Wenge Man said:


> On advice of a STIHL guy who has milled ebony with chainsaw we have been using 45 degree filing on the cutters. Cuts fast but a lot of skip patterns on the boards as a result.


Do you mean like this?





If so this is called a "washboard effect" and is a result of a resonance between the size of the chain wave and the size of the log. A 45º cutter top plate angle will just exacerbate this effect. BTW the above was done with a 10º top plate angle so you can see the smaller angle does not eliminate this problem.

I tried to minimize this by significantly changing the chain speed when cutting smaller logs by going to a bigger sprocket but it did not seem to make any difference.



> I am wondering if I file them to 20 or 25 degrees will I get a better cut? Will this make the cutters dull faster?



All you can do it try filing it and do some timed cuts


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