# Milling Coast Live Oak - California



## Patrick Clark (Jul 9, 2019)

Newbie to the forums and to milling here and I’m trying to get some input on a big tree we have to take down. Here is info on the tree:
- Coast Live Oak (Quercus Agrifolia)
- Trunk diameter roughly 50”
- Diseased with sudden Oak death (SOD), mostly present at the base of the tree
- we have to take it down due to the SOD and it is leaning directly over our back yard, plus a large hollow also at the base of the tree.

I’ve read a lot on forums and articles that this is difficult wood to dry and then also difficult to work with. It would break my heart to have to cut the tree down AND not do anything but burn it. There’s a local milling service that gave me the following info:

- could get 20-30 slabs out of it ($150 per slab to mill)
- could get another 500-1000 bf of dimensional lumber ($1.25/bf)
- he stickers every 2 feet and straps the stack every 4 feet
- says he’s used to milling live oak and even makes flooring out of it with a mix of air and kiln drying. Not terribly interested in this due to the high cost per sf.

Other factors:
- I have no experience drying wood, but am generally very handy and have done some wood working (was a contractor for 10+ years)
- the chances of building anything specific (like a solar kiln) for drying the wood is low. I do have a garage I could use part of for drying, but also don’t want half the garage occupied for years on end. 
- id like to get slabs to build with and sell the extras to help offset the cost of milling
- Id like to get some rounds out of the biggest part of the tree to put up as decoration or splice together for table tops.
- I’d like to get some 5/4 or 4/4 stuff to make build-ins and basic things like that.

So, here are my questions:
- are the above prices reasonable? They almost seem too low, and I’ve heard that some sawyers start to ask for more once everything is all setup on the property.
- will it be a waste of money to try and get slabs/lumber/rounds out of this tree given it’s notorious reputation?
- is strapping a stack enough or does it need actual weight on it?
- the best solution I think I’ve come across is to seal the slabs right away and stack them vertically in the garage. Will this work, do they need to be strapped together to prevent warping? 

Thanks in advance for any and all input!!


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## grizz55chev (Jul 9, 2019)

Patrick Clark said:


> Newbie to the forums and to milling here and I’m trying to get some input on a big tree we have to take down. Here is info on the tree:
> - Coast Live Oak (Quercus Agrifolia)
> - Trunk diameter roughly 50”
> - Diseased with sudden Oak death (SOD), mostly present at the base of the tree
> ...


In my limited experience, it’s almost impossible to prevent warping, others may have had better results.


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 9, 2019)

grizz55chev said:


> In my limited experience, it’s almost impossible to prevent warping, others may have had better results.


Thanks! On the slabs too or just the dimensional stuff?


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 9, 2019)

Patrick my impression is you are absolutely wasting your time. I am sure that is not what you want to hear. You are doing a great deal of planning and effort on some thing you do not know a thing about. Is the tree solid completely or is there some decay here and there which will make all your effort worthless. I know of two people who slab Oak on a day to day basis. You could drive your pickup and trailer and pick up what ever you want at any time. Live Oak is not good to work with in my opinion because the grain is too inconsistent. The cost per BF seems high. From the custom mill's point of view that is what they need to do the work. I think if you shop around you could find nice white Oak that is real pretty. If you have an attachment to the tree then the cost should not matter. To mill your tree and have it slabbed
and then sell the slabs to make enough money to pay for your project seems backwards. If your time is worth nothing then push forward, but my friends have beautiful slabs that sits around for a year before it's sold. For most part they do not start up their mill unless they have a deposit on a particular cut. Best of luck Thanks


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 9, 2019)

Ted, thanks for the honest reply and information. Definitely not what I want to hear, but I also don’t want to mill $5,000+ of wood that ends up in a fire pit because it’s garbage. 

I wasn’t intending to mill the tree primarily to make money. The tree is massive (60-70’ tall) and is way more wood than I could store or use. We don’t have a huge emotional attachment to the tree, but it is a beautiful tree, probably 200 years old or more, and it just feels crappy to cut it down and throw it in the fire. 

Thanks again!


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 10, 2019)

Pat there are many things you could do with your wood and I am sure some of the wood is better than beautiful. You however do not want to go into the milling business or market wood. If this project were mine I would consider finding some some one who might want the wood give it to them in exchange for a couple of slabs. There are many AS people here who are experts at drying wood so check with them. I do not see why you would need to take up space in your garage as for me just stack the wood cover it up with plastic to let it dry slowly. The wood I mill is some what dry so not a big problem. You are in an area that has many acres that is covered with Oak so buy or replacing your wood does not seem difficult. When I am milling it is usually milling cedar for the purpose of getting rid of it. Thanks


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 10, 2019)

Thanks Ted. I will check around the area to see if there is any interest in the wood or slabs. Just to be clear, the guy I would beworking with does the whole thing - downs the tree, mills, stacks, stickers and straps. My end of things would just be telling him where to stack it, and applying a sealer to the ends/whole boards if that’s required.

Follow up question. We’re doing landscaping and I’m reading that live oak is very rot/water resistant. I wonder if I have the guy mill larger pieces, 4x4 and 6x6 and use it for steps, planter boxes, etc. perhaps if oiled/ sealed right after milling I could put it straight to use without having to let it dry. I imagine the larger dimensions would tend to warp less, plus it’s not furniture so it doesn’t have to be perfect. Plus, we’d have to buy this lumber elsewhere for landscaping, so could be a much cheaper alternative. Any thoughts on this?


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 11, 2019)

Live Oak is definitely a long lasting wood in an adverse environment. If you think that you could utilize a major amount of wood from your tree then go for it. If your wood is allowed to perfectly dry then the wood will be able to accept water sealer, log oil, stain and so on. If you put your wood directly into the soil when wet it will not last as long, but maybe plenty long enough. Larger diameter lumber can warp just like any thing else, but if it is part of a construction then it will be some what contained. You will achieve great satisfaction from working with your own tree. What makes wood very special is the different contrasting colors and grain. You never know until you open it up. You might want to spend plenty of time on a dinning table worth more than $10,000. Thanks


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 11, 2019)

Ted, thanks again for all your advice and input! This seems like probably the best use for the wood if I do decide to have it milled. I attached a pic of the tree, intended to do it before but forgot. I’ll keep the thread posted with results.


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## rarefish383 (Jul 12, 2019)

I think the price is way high. You could buy a new Stihl 880 and a chainsaw mill, slab it your self, sell the all but brand new saw for half price, and still be into it for less money.. I mill a lot of 30" Red and White Oak at 12/4 and have no big problem with warpage. The Live Oak may be a whole different animal. I have stacks of stickered Black Walnut that is 5 years air dried and I can't get $150 a slab for them. Maybe you were too exuberant and the sawyer thought he had a fish on the line, maybe the cost of living is that much more out there than here. But, in the DC metro area, things aren't cheap. I'm with Ted, if you want a project buy a slab/s. If you want to off set the price of the tree removal, it ain't gonna happen.

Oops, I just read the part of the post where he is the Tree Service taking the tree down. That brings the overall deal down to Earth, Still a lot of money, but much more reasonable. Get him to leave you a couple rounds for the table tops and let him haul off the rest. The rounds will check/crack, but I've seen where rounds have been quartered, dried, edges trued up, glued back together and they look fantastic.


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 13, 2019)

Thanks for weighing in! As much as I’d love to buy fun tools and do the work myself, I’ve got a whole yard to landscape, plus a number of other projects that take priority. Im not sure what’s normal per BF for milling, but I do know that walnut and other non-exotic hardwoods at the local hardwood shop goes for $10+ per BF, sometimes more. So to me milling at 1.25 seemed low, even though of course I have to wait for it to dry. Cost of living is definitely high around here. The guy says he sells dried slabs at a premium for 500+ per slab (when they’re large) but who knows what the market actually is. 

From everything I’ve read, live oak is very different than red and white. Twisted and uneven grain, and I think I read it’s the densest wood in North America?? 

All that said, I’m still a little conflicted. Honestly, I don’t mind spending the money as long as I get some usable lumber out of it. A few slabs and landscaping lumber is worth the cost (landscaping lumber isn’t cheap if I had to buy it). But if it’s gonna be difficult or impossible to get usable lumber, that would also suck. Also, and unfortunately, the cost didn’t include taking down the tree, that’s a $3,000 day rate.

Anyway, all this input is helpful and ultimately it’s going to come down to just making a decision knowing that the exact outcome can’t be predicted. Would just hate for such an old tree to go to nothing but firewood is my main concern. Thanks again!


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 13, 2019)

I thought that you had already decided as to the way you are going. After you posted your picture what you have. What you have is way less than what you described. The base of your tree is not even close to 50''. So you will not have a large diameter log to mill some exotic table tops from. Yes live Oak can be beautiful and hard to work with at the same time. The branches or limbs is where your wood is and yes they look nice, but not a table top unless jointed. You need a base that is some what uniform to have a hope for decent milling. Your base or trunk need to need to be at least 48'' at the thinnest like one pictured. Then again if you have priority projects and money is not a concern then get it done. Thanks


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 13, 2019)

Ted, apologies for the confusion. My intent for the original post was to a) find out if it was reasonable to expect usable lumber/slabs out of live oak and, if so, b) see if there were any tips or tricks to use during the drying process (I’ve read about sealing the ends, sealing the whole board/slab, wrapping the whole thing in plastic, painting the ends with latex, kiln drying vs air drying, etc.). The hard part is that I haven’t seen any definitive “here is how you dry live oak to get good results” information, which is a little worrisome. 

It’s not the money is not a concern, it’s just that I’m OK spending the money so long as I get lumber out of it.

Regarding the tree size, the picture might be a bit deceptive. Measured at the base of the tree, the circumference is 145” = 46” diameter. However, it’s ovular so it’s probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 50” in one direction and 40” in the other, or thereabouts. The tree is no less than 65’ or 70’ tall (measure with a laser to a branch not even at the top of the canopy), so the photo was take. From pretty far away to get the whole thing. Here are a couple more that might help clarify. For reference, from the base to that first crotch is about 14’

Thanks again for the time and info. I appreciate it and recognize I’m a newb, just trying to find good info and make a well informed decision.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 14, 2019)

You are not going to go wrong as you are asking good questions. Yes your tree is oval shaped which will detract from your available cuts. As I said it is a gamble. Your limbs look the best. I am sure you will end up with some usable lumber. I would recommend shopping around at least some to see what you can buy both in cedar and hardwood. At this point it is dollars and cents unless you have a great deal of sentimental value. You are worried about drying out your wood for nothing. If your wood starts drying too quick go get some damp blankets or wet carpet and wrap it around your stack. You will however have to keep watch as to if the wood is drying perfectly or not. If you can get some treated lumber that will meet your needs and come across some beautiful hardwood slabs then you should be able to compare your effort with what you can buy. Thanks


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 15, 2019)

Thanks Ted! I’m feeling pretty good about milling the tree. I also have a couple cedars which are much more straightforward to mill and dry, as I understand it. I’d really like to get some slabs and rounds out of that tree so I think it’ll be worth it, even if not every piece ends up usable. 

Thanks again for all the input, I really appreciate it.


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 15, 2019)

I agree that it is not worthwhile wood to pursue. I have property up at Clearlake in NorCal, mostly there are live oak on my property, but I have a couple blue oaks. It is possible to make usable lumber out of the live oak but it twists and checks pretty bad in most cases. I know that turners will use chunks of live oak on the lathe with decent results, but that's different. The way the trees usually grow will often not leave very much straight trunk section, so you have a lot of twisted and crooked boards if you were to saw them.

I'm not trying to discourage you Patrick, but keep an eye open for some free trees, they get cut and blown down in the Santa Cruz hills often. The bottom line is that live oak is not very good to saw.

live oak is not bad firewood, and what I plan to do with the trees I've taken down on my property. I think they have taken about 20 small to medium live oaks off my property. I am just putting a foundation in as I type. I'm saving them for firewood.

Alan


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## csmillingnoob (Jul 15, 2019)

I don't know anything about California live oak. However, the trunk of the variety native to the Southeast (_quercus virginiana) _ grows with a twist. Warping is usually encountered in boards.

Also, it's HARD. Extremely hard. Makes pecan feel soft. Probably the hardest commonly found wood in North America. Cookies make very good chopping blocks. Much, much harder than white oak chopping blocks.

Bark is loaded with chainkilling sand.

Limbs are covered with decayed fern filth that is chainkilling dirt.

Sap sticks to chain like cement.

All in all it is a misery to mill. Furniture makers have told me it's death on router bits, etc.

but, our termites don't like it and the beams are strong.


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 15, 2019)

Thanks Alan and csmillingnoob!

As I understand it, ca live oak is notably different. Plus, as I’m hiring the sawyer, I’m not terribly concerned with how hard it is to mill. He has a number of photos on his site google site (https://www.google.com/search?q=out...W1H73PX3VkYFpcFKCPwGO0nVFiPtdd&viewerState=ga) of live oak slabs, so I know he can do the cutting.

My current plan is to get a few slabs out of the biggest part of the trunk, plus some 6x6 or similar out of the straight part of the trunks for landscaping timbers. That way I don’t have to worry as much if the timbers check a bit or warp, and the hardness won’t matter much either as there will be minimal cutting/drilling for my purposes. This allows me to keep the nostalgia and beauty of the tree (the slabs) and also offset cost by getting timbers I need anyway for a fraction of the cost of purchase.

Thanks!


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## Daniel W (Jul 16, 2019)

Good luck in your endeavor with the live oak. I’ve not performed any milling, though at some point I hope to. I have however worked with a fair amount of live oak living in Northern Ca and I will echo the above statements, it moves a lot!

I’ve turned a number pieces from live oak and of all the wood I’ve used it’s the most unstable and challenging. The bowl in the photo started round and and wound up oval. Often when trying to dry or maintain smaller pieces they check and split so much they are useless, even with anchor seal. 

I would anticipate losing a fair amount of the ends of your slabs due to checking and warping. I’d be curious to know how it works out for you.


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks Daniel. I intend to keep the forum posted with updates. Someone else posted here but now I don’t see it, thanks though!


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## csmillingnoob (Jul 16, 2019)

Patrick Clark said:


> Thanks Alan and csmillingnoob!
> 
> As I understand it, ca live oak is notably different. Plus, as I’m hiring the sawyer, I’m not terribly concerned with how hard it is to mill. He has a number of photos on his site google site (https://www.google.com/search?q=out...W1H73PX3VkYFpcFKCPwGO0nVFiPtdd&viewerState=ga) of live oak slabs, so I know he can do the cutting.
> 
> ...



Should be great for landscaping timbers. Bugs don't like live oak and it's fairly water resistant. Not as insect/moisture resistant as cedar, but will last many years.

I seem to remember a story about the US navy burying a supply of live oak in Virginia when they quit building wooden fighting ships. It was dug up and "reclaimed" about 100 years later despite a century of bugs and moisture.


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 17, 2019)

There seems to be quite the relationship between live oak and ship building, I kinda wish I built boats! 

Perhaps y’all could weigh in: I’ve read a fair amount and it seems that cedar, though good above ground to resist moisture and insects, is not good at resisting rot when in ground contact, is that correct? I have a couple (smaller) cedars they also have to come down, and would like to plan for those to be milled as well, but would like to have a plan for how to use them first so I know what size to have them milled. Thanks!


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 17, 2019)

Patrick Clark said:


> There seems to be quite the relationship between live oak and ship building, I kinda wish I built boats!


I'm not sure why, I've not heard that but I don't doubt it.



Patrick Clark said:


> Perhaps y’all could weigh in: I’ve read a fair amount and it seems that cedar, though good above ground to resist moisture and insects, is not good at resisting rot when in ground contact, is that correct? I have a couple (smaller) cedars they also have to come down, and would like to plan for those to be milled as well, but would like to have a plan for how to use them first so I know what size to have them milled. Thanks!


No wood is good in the ground, period. That goes for redwood which people think is rot resistant in most cases, but it's really not and will rot just like other wood. My experience is that redwood will rot, it's just less likely to do it and will do it slower.

I like cedar, but be warned on it as it has a lot of silica in it which is really tough on the blades. I have 4 cedar logs sitting in my yard as I type.

BTW, I don't know what "Out of the Woods" slabbed up with live oak, I didn't see any specific on his site you linked to. I have listened to some of his YT videos, he cuts quite a bit and has a kiln, and I'm not sure what type of live oak they have growing down in TN where I believe he resides, I can tell you mostly about the live oak in California. FWIW, live oak is a part of the conifer family, as such it has leaves on it which are pointed. The leaves do not shed during the winter, so they are no deciduous. Because of this they are not very desirable around houses as the leaves do not shed during the winter. Blue oak, OTOH, is a deciduous tree which sheds it's leaves in the winter and provides more of a 4 season effect and desirable around homes. The leaves on the Blue oak have rounded tips, not pointed like the live oak.


csmillingnoob said:


> Should be great for landscaping timbers.


I second that! 

Cheers,
Alan


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## Patrick Clark (Jul 17, 2019)

Thanks Alan! I should clarify a few things:
1. The photos are actually on the google “listing” and not his website. I believe that link takes you right there, and the photos have captions on them as “live oak slab” and similar. If the link doesn’t work you can google “out of the woods milling” then click the photos link on the listing. Both me and the sawyer are in the Santa Cruz, ca area.
2. Whatever I use the timbers for, they’d be surrounded by drain rock or gravel as to not be in direct contact with earth. I’m assuming that since much of the moisture issues are from dirt holding water, plus breeding bacteria and fungus, that should solve many of the issues. I don’t expect the timbers to last forever, but if I get 20+ years out of them I think that’s a win. 

I’ve heard of people mentioning “pressure treated cedar” but cannot find any such product online. Is this a treatment that people do to regular cedar (type of sealer or oil)?

Speaking of wood in the ground, I harken back to the home I grew up in. It was a 100 year old Victorian in San Jose. The “foundation” was 2x10 redwood laid directly on the dirt with 3” pony wall built on top supporting the floor joists. After that 100 years my dad finally redid the exterior foundation and the wood was almost in perfect condition. I think the key was that it stayed dry. For whatever reason, me and my friends always played under the house when we were little and it was always very dusty. Now that I think about it, it’s a little weird that my parents let us play under there!


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## csmillingnoob (Jul 18, 2019)

Patrick Clark said:


> There seems to be quite the relationship between live oak and ship building, I kinda wish I built boats!
> 
> Perhaps y’all could weigh in: I’ve read a fair amount and it seems that cedar, though good above ground to resist moisture and insects, is not good at resisting rot when in ground contact, is that correct? I have a couple (smaller) cedars they also have to come down, and would like to plan for those to be milled as well, but would like to have a plan for how to use them first so I know what size to have them milled. Thanks!



The curvature of live oaks makes it great for building the ships "ribs." it is much stronger than splicing to achieve the curvature.

You will like this:  (A battle of two dialects)


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## Patrick Clark (Sep 15, 2019)

Well, the tree is down and the first, and largest, section had been milled into slabs. I wanted to update the thread with some photos. 

It looks like really pretty wood and I’m really hoping it stays relatively straight so I can make it into some tables, bars, etc. I had the thought of using one of the slabs to make a front door for the house, but my wife isn’t huge on the idea (our current front door is basically all glass and she likes all the light that comes through, understandable). Might use one piece as a sliding barn style door inside though. We’ll also be using sections to create an outdoor staircase with thick treads out of the slabs (they’ll end up being roughly 2.25x16x72), that should end up looking nice, I think. Any recommendations on a high quality exterior sealer that won’t be slippery (I’m thinking something like a marine sealer as lots of boats have wood sections that are both sealed and not slippery)?

Anyway, I’ve anchor sealed the ends and had the idea to strap the ends of the slabs to *hopefully* prevent/limit any checking. I’m not sure if it’ll work, but the strap and screws are fairly cheap, and it didn’t take too much time, so I figured it’d be worth a shot.

In other news, the wood rounds are in pretty poor shape. Unfortunately, the anchor seal didn’t arrive until a few days after the rounds were cut, and it took another day or two for me to use the router to get them down into even rounds (the arborists cut them for me and most of them were thicker on one end then the other). I watered them every day, but one had already cracked by the time I applied the anchor seal, the other two cracked afterwards and one is cupping pretty badly.


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