# Lighter/thinner or heavier/thicker?



## EngineerDude (Aug 27, 2005)

Ash tree in front of house has to come down, but no way to fell it safely from the ground. So, I've made decision to invest in what I need to climb it and drop it from the top, a piece at a time.

Planning to use doubled rope technique with split tail and micro-pulley. Thanks to "The Tree Climber's Companion", I've figured this out on a conceptual level, and am confident I can make this work. Mechanical engineering background has been a help.

The process of researching this has reawakened a long-standing desire to climb for recreational purposes. (Some old growth forest about 20 miles from here interests me.)

Now I'm trying to refine some specifics. The immediate question involves rope. I'm looking at Velocity and ArborMaster. Given what I've described above as the immediate need combined with the longer term desire to use this equipment recreationally, I'm seeking advice on whether lighter is better, or if the thicker ArborMaster is the better choice. Or other?

(Also would be interested in recommendations on saddles. I'm leaning toward optimizing on maneuverability and light weight, sacrificing as needed on robustness/length of service.)


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## EngineerDude (Aug 27, 2005)

Have read pretty much everything on vendors' sites I've found. Have taken this as far as going to all the well-known rope mfr's sites and pretty comprehensively researching rope characteristics.

Unofrtunately, while the mfrs and vendors provide a lot of good data, their descriptions lack the experience factor. For example, how does it feel? How does it hold up? How much of a pain in the neck is it to drag a couple of extra pounds of rope around? Etc. It's this kind of input that I'm seeking.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 27, 2005)

It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?
Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun.

P.S. welcome to site


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## EngineerDude (Aug 27, 2005)

Dada and Dan, you underestimate me. You both are absolutely correct that I lack experience climbing. But what I lack in experience I'll more than make up for with preparation, based on EXTENSIVE research into the entire process (I have well over 100 hours invested in this to date (including the reference I mentioned and others, the websites of all the major manufacturers and vendors, and significant time observing and interacting with local crews, most of which frankly do an abysmal job of respecting safety considerations). Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk.

Bottom line is that I won't be going into this or any other tree until I'm qualified to do so, but I WILL be going into this tree and many more in the future.

I obviously can't stop you from your curious, annoying, elitist desire to look down your nose at me because I lack experience, but I will ask that you please don't post any more replies that might encourage others to also close their minds and so not reply with helpful information.


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## Newfie (Aug 27, 2005)

C'mon guys, he's an engineer! He can do anything that a bunch of tree climbing misanthropes can do.  

I guess it sucks when an elitist has the microscope turned around on himself.

"E Dude", what about training, or are you far too smart to require hands on?


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## Trinity Honoria (Aug 27, 2005)

<ahem> may i make a suggestion? that you seek out the recreation-climbers? and learn to climb in that arena, then perhaps tackle your tree in the yard? 

considering what i have learned from the folks on this list-- i have never perceived them as elitists, even when i have not responded in the way they encouraged... 

i applaud your plan, your ingenuity, but getting some hands on experience prior to also using gas powered machinery while hanging from a rope, high about the ground, would seem sound advice to me...

and who am i??? a simple woman, who owns a house, and has trees growing on the property. nothing more... nothing less...


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## 2Coilinveins (Aug 27, 2005)

Relax EngineerDude, these people aren't trying to be mean, they're trying to keep your a$$ out of the hospital or the morgue.


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## trimmmed (Aug 27, 2005)

C'mon, lets not knock engineers as a _profession_. Where'd we be without Charlie? He is singlehandedly taking on OPEC with his licorice fuel program 










_Once upon a time there was an engineer_
_Choo Choo Charlie was his name, we hear._
_He had an engine and he sure had fun_
_He used Good & Plenty candy to make his train run._
*Charlie says* _"Love my Good & Plenty!"_
*Charlie says* _"Really rings my bell!"_
*Charlie says* _"Love my Good & Plenty!"
Don't know any other candy that I love so well! _


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## Trinity Honoria (Aug 27, 2005)

2Coilinveins said:


> Relax EngineerDude, these people aren't trying to be mean, they're trying to keep your a$$ out of the hospital or the morgue.



thank you for being politically correct towards my gender... 

the pronouns are h*ll to get politically correct, tho... don't you think???


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## EngineerDude (Aug 27, 2005)

Newfie, trust me, I'm not elitist about being an engineer or anything else. By choice of screen name and reference to my engineering background I simply sought to avoid the anticipated "you're not qualified" stuff. And I certainly didn't imply that these guys or anybody else were misanthropes. It so happens that I deeply respect the knowledge and experience that's out within this member community. That's why I'm here; I hope to learn, as part of this process. As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process.

Trinity, thanks, already looking at rec-climbing. (Pursuing this from many angles.) For what it's worth, this tree in front has plenty of strong limbs to serve as support. I.E. The climbing portion of this is about getting to reasonably secure locations to make cuts. Also, I have considerable experience felling, and my saw and other equip are in excellent condition, and again, this will not be attempted until I'm confident I can pull it off.

2Coilinveins, I am relaxed. I appreciate it if the intention is to keep me from injury, but with all due respect, I've survived this long, and have tackled far more difficult/dangerous tasks with similar preparation and have not suffered anything more than minor cuts/scrapes. This is due to appropriate caution and preparation. I'll be happy to report same to this forum when this task is finished.

TreeCo, I know the construction, tensile strength, diameter, weight per 100 feet, stretch, knot, break-in, abrasion and UV resistance, and flexibility characteristics of every current arborist rope from Atlantic Braids, New England, Buccaneer, Samson, Wall, and Yale. What I don't know, however, is what real users experience in the real world The intangibles. How does it feel, how does it stand up over time, etc. Accordingly, as stated originally I'm seeking advice.


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## 2Coilinveins (Aug 27, 2005)

Trinity Honoria said:


> thank you for being politically correct towards my gender...
> 
> the pronouns are h*ll to get politically correct, tho... don't you think???



No kidding! Some women get offended, some couldn't care less. I've had women get offended when I call them "ma'am." Go figure.

EngineerDude-

You'd get much better results if you didn't admit to no experience, ask for advice from experts(root word: experience? hmm....), get advice, then refute that advice with insults. On the other hand, I wonder how many here would actually consider being called an 'elitist' an insult? Not I.


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## Elmore (Aug 27, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> I've made decision to invest in what I need to climb it and drop it from the top, a piece at a time.


Video this feat and instruct your survivors or anyone else close to you, who is not permanently paralyzed, to post it to this site. That would be informative, educational and a hoot to boot.


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## JimK (Aug 27, 2005)

I've seen other forums enter into judgement issues. The purpose of these many arbor forums is to safely grow our respective aerial activities. Whenever a newbie announces the launch of a self guided tree adventure, the requisit cautionary notes are posted. It's always a question of how this should be carried out, but it should be done. There are climbers joining tree crews on an ad hoc basis without extensive training or education. That's how I started; I simply started work with a tree crew one day. My return to climbing on the recreational side had to be self-guided or it wouldn't have started. I started very slow. I posted in the forums. I read. I practiced a lot. I find it difficult to judge a newbie that wants to climb. It's to be applauded. If judgement is to be passed then it has to be against the equipment companies for unregulated sales on a potentially dangerous endeavor.

Getting to the point of the thread, I really like the New England Fly as a recreational climber. It holds it shape. I typically ascend via body thrust, so I like the thickness that it provides. Because RTC is about excercise for me, I remain a knots on rope guy. I don't use ascending devices. However, I understand that the benefit of the New England Fly is that it holds well for mechanical ascenders. The Fly has proven itself to work in wet conditions as well. I use the Sportline for long hikes. It's lighter and more compact. Though reliable, the Fly features leave it in the dust. I find that I like tieing knots in the Fly over the Sportline.

It takes a brave person to crank up the chain saw in a tree. It takes an equally brave person to share a posting that they'd like to teach themselves. Lastly, the responses were on the mark that it's a dangerous endeavor without training. 

Regards,
JimK
Keep FIT - Fun in Trees


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## R Schra (Aug 28, 2005)

Elmore said:


> Video this feat and instruct your suvivors or anyone else close to you, who is not permanently paralyzed, to post it to this site. That would be informative, educational and a hoot to boot.



Whats wrong with limbing from the top? been there, done that, seen it all and survived.  


mmmm, no not a recommedation to do so. It is extremly dangerous to do so. 

i have to admit i had much much fun (and adrealine)to drop a top trough a crown and starting from up to down removing limbs on 20 huge poplars on a creek side with overhang above the water. it worked very well to drop the limbs near the side so a crane could pick them out. i just though why the hell getting a top anchor and going down again, just ran up on spikes and worked my way down. fast, easy, DANGEROUS it was. you really need to see in advance to understand the things and way the limbs can react on the cuts, getting caught by other limbs/trees, and still be save upthere. no way to do so if not experienced. It took 45 minutes a tree (first one) to clear it from the bottom up, 20 minutes to spike up and cutting down again. and that way the wood was much easier to get with the crane. maybe stupid to do so but i learned some nice lessons......


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## EngineerDude (Aug 28, 2005)

R Schra - Thanks for sharing your experience. Every bit of insight I can gain into what I'm up against is helpful and is appreciated.

JimK - Thanks for your thoughtful perspective on the purpose and process of using these forums. I basically agree with these views, and that's why I'm here. Thanks also for the recommendation on rope. Again, every bit of insight is helpful and appreciated. Last item, I want to confirm that I recognize that this is dangerous without training, and I'll reiterate that I'm leaning toward ArborMaster when it comes here in October.

Elmore - Not sure you really intended your comment to be productive, but it may actually have some merit. Video is a good idea, and if I can get it to manageable size, I will post it once this is finished. So I guess thanks to you too for the idea.

2Coilinveins - As to "...get advice, then refute that advice with insults", I wonder if you were in my shoes if you would perceive Datawins' comment "Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun", to qualify as useful advice, particularly in the context of his comment "It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?" 

To all, I honestly didn't intend "elitist" as an insult. I simply was trying to prevent the direction of the thread from turning toward a groundswell of "you're not qualified, hire a professional". Still, upon rereading it, my comments do appear a bit heavy-handed. Accordingly...

Datawins and TreeCo, I sincerely apologize for any perceived insult. Please forgive me. I once again am learning how difficult it is to communicate in small discrete sound bites and do so in a way that eliminates the possibility of misinterpretation.


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## 2Coilinveins (Aug 28, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> 2Coilinveins - As to "...get advice, then refute that advice with insults", I wonder if you were in my shoes if you would perceive Datawins' comment "Please get out your local phone directory and hire someone qualified to do the work at your residence, then google your local recreational tree climbing folks and join up with them and learn and have fun", to qualify as useful advice, particularly in the context of his comment "It never stops amazing me the amount of folks that simply believe buying a rope and some books qualify them to climb up a tree hanging from a piece of rope running a motorized chain saw capable of cutting through 16" of wood in seconds, much less an human arm or leg probably quicker, and cut down a tree. I wonder if I buy an book about about building skyscrapers, will any one let me actually build one?"



Dadatwins' assessment sounds spot-on to me. In your defense, you did say you would not touch your tree until you were qualified. Either way, good luck, I look forward to hearing about a successfully completed job.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 28, 2005)

My comments regarding no - experience homeowners who insist on doing thier own tree work should not be taken as an insult or an elitist attitude, I am simply stating the facts that there are to many wanna-be-treeclimbers getting hurt doing jobs that they have no business attempting. Simply read through the injury threads on this site and see how many folks, both novice and experienced, have been hurt doing this type of work. I applaud your efforts to want to learn about recreational climbing and would be glad to share any advice that I could regarding my opinion of tools and techniques. It is my opinion that recreational climbing and residential tree removal are two completly different subjects, but that is my opinion. Lets start with some pictures of the offending tree and grounds surrounding it and maybe give us a brief job plan as to how you would do this job. I am also curious about any ground help that may be involved and their experience level with aerial rescue, just in case things do not go according to plan.


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## DDM (Aug 28, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process.



I dont believe this is going to happen without W/C cert. Why not just hire a Freelance climber to come out and supervise you?
O and also Study the this Forum.
http://www.arboristsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23O


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## Elmore (Aug 28, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> Elmore - Not sure you really intended your comment to be productive, but it may actually have some merit. Video is a good idea, and if I can get it to manageable size, I will post it once this is finished. So I guess thanks to you too for the idea.



Actually I was thinking of a "new" Vonage commercial.


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## Ax-man (Aug 29, 2005)

Eng.

I got to give you a little credit for at least for not going out to buy a long ladder and then try to cut this Ash tree down.

As far as ropes go I like Samson's products, had good luck with them, they lend themselves nicely to my style of climbing. I can't tell you any more than that, because the rest is simply a judgement call on the part of the user. Everyone has different needs and styles when they climb, this is why there are so many different ropes to choose from. 

It really isn't about which rope is best or what type of climbing system is good or bad the crux of the matter is how skilled are you in the use of tools of the trade, especially using a chainsaw up in a tree. 

Rec climbing trees and doing research is helpful but is not really going to matter when you are running a chainsaw at eye level, inches away from your body blocking down a spar. I would almost bet this is where most people get hurt doing their own tree removal. Then there are times when you have to be tied in at some unnatural, uncomfortable and some times not so stable positions and still have to run a saw, felling trees on the ground do not count for experience in situations like this.

There is much information in the archives, but there is also much information missing that can not be communicated simply with a keyboard and screen on how to read a tree for removal.

Just putting in my little 2 cents worth is all. If you think you can pull this off we will try to help as best we can.

Larry


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

I see lots of activity on this thread yesterday while I was tied up with "honeydo" items. This post will be a bit lengthy as I try to comprehensively respond.

First item, as a result of a response on another forum, it's dawned on me that I mixed up two of my trees and referred to this as an ash. The ash is the one I took down 10 days ago, this one's actually an aspen.

Next item, Dadatwins suggested some photos, etc. I've included 5 photos. #1 shows the aspen at left, next to a red maple. My home also appears. #2 is a closup of the dead top from the same location as #1. #3 and #4 are from behind my home from same location. #5 is also from the backside, shifted slightly. More photos to follow in another post.

Dadatwins makes several other points that I'll respond to. Yes, I've reviewed the injury reports and will not proceed until I'm fully prepared and assess the risk as manageable. As to a job plan, I'm leaning at this point toward putting my rope high into the maple and pulling myself over to the aspen, to provide a quick escape route. (Comments?) I'd plan to stand on one of the two strong limbs that appear approx midway up on left in photos #3, 4, and 5 in order to take down the top. Another strong limb on the left side, just above roof line in #5 would provide another good perch for the next section. From there, I would fell the remaining spar.

DDM, interesting idea about a "freelance"/supervisor. I'll pursue local availability.

Elmore - Vonage commercial? Assume this is TV? I don't watch much and am not familiar. Is this relevant or an attempt at humor?

Ax-man, my thought process about this is classic chain/weak link. Of course you're right, it's not just about the rope (or any other link), but none can be ignored. I'm skilled at using a saw, but not yet in a tree. But then, I guess everyone who's ever used a saw in a tree has said this originally. I.E. Everyone has a first time! I take the risks seriously and will manage appropriately.

Yes, this post was moved from Homeowner Help. Curious, as it has substantially less to do with my future intent (rec climbing) than about my short term goal of dropping this tree. (Maybe it's as TreeCo suggests; the mod(s) were trying to "hide" it.) In any event, thx for comments on rope/saddle, and for your cautions and thoughts on stepping stone approach. I'm going into this "low and slow", am in no rush on this, and won't go until I'm comfortable I've minimized the risk to acceptable level.

TreeCo - Oh, man,


> It's to early for the "Arboricultural Injuries and Fatalities " forum.


 that hurts! I see I haven't yet convinced you that the probability of me completely this successfully is high, due to proper preparation and planning.


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## Trinity Honoria (Aug 29, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> TreeCo - Oh, man, that hurts! I see I haven't yet convinced you that the probability of me completely this successfully is high, due to proper preparation and planning.



1. ED, this group can be brutal... put on your brass protector, and hang in here... primarily, there are the best of intentions (ie. you not landing head first on the earth) here on this list... but if i can survive with my little homeowner questions when accused of not demonstrating sufficient cajones, anyone can!!! (i did buy extra brass polish, however...)  

2. praise you for doing Honey Do projects


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## Ax-man (Aug 29, 2005)

You have taken some good pictures Engineer, this is hardly what I would call a good tree for a first time attempt at getting your feet wet trying to take a tree down.

I don't know guys do we help EngineerDude out ??? Personally I would go the freelance climber route as DDM suggested.

How long has this Popular been standing dead ???? ( toooo long in my book ) It is an accident waiting to happen, for the uniniated.

As far as putting a rope high in the Maple tree, personally I wouldn't go that route, you would be fighting the rope angle the whole time trying to take this tree down. For you it might be the best approach, just to keep you out of trouble.

Get some climb time under your belt before taking this tree on.

Larry


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## Ax-man (Aug 29, 2005)

Engineer,

Have you selected which of the highest limbs your going to be using as a gin pole????

Larry


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

Trinity, can't believe you actually referred to "cajones" (actual spelling is cojones, you'll see why I know and note this in a moment). You'll probably think I'm making this up, but I swear it's true, my initial and name are actually C.A. Jones. Before the rest of you jump on this, I'm not trying to suggest anything with this, but was just too amused by Trinity's reference to pass up the opportunity to respond.

OK, as promised, here's some more pics. #8 looks from across the street in front of my house toward my house on right and neighbor's on left. (#1 from previous post looks at tree from in front of this neighbor's house.) #9 is another view of the top. #10 shows the large limb on which I'm tentatively planning to stand to take down the top. (Note that this is at about 43 feet up.) #11 shows the top portion of the tree looking up while standing next to the trunk.

Ax-man, yes, I wish this were a bit less of a first project. Unfortunately I don't have any small dead/dying trees. Not sure how long this tree has been on its way out. The torn-off limbs seen clearly in #10 broke during 70 mph wind in Sep '03. (Unfortunately, they didn't quite come down. I pulled them down with Zing-It sometime this spring. As to the integrity of my proposed perches, I've bounced with rope slung over both of them (separately), approx 6 feet from spar, with approx 390 pounds attached. (Teenage son and I.) No cracking sounds, etc., so I'm confident they'll support me.

Any perceived specific issues resulting from the characteristics of aspen/poplar with respect to taking down the dead top?


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## clearance (Aug 29, 2005)

Why all the talk about ropes, any good rope will do. Climb it with spurs and a steel core strap, strip and chunk. The rope might never be used. Done lots of removals and only used my rope to rappel to it or out of the butt log and only if it was tall. With a tautline of course, try not to over-intellectualize all treework people. Engineer Dude, go in the bush and climb at few easy little trees to get some practical experience. Before I ever climbed I ran a saw for years and fell and bucked thousands of trees but in the air it is a whole different world. Good luck.


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

TreeCo, yeah, I knew you were playing with me. My response was feigned pain. As to chunking down vs. rigging, I'm leaning toward the former, as the latter seems to add another element of complexity (not to mention cost; i.e. bull rope) to an already complex process. I'm not particular concerned with lawn damage (soil is clay, hard as a rock), and despite what many in this forum may think, I know my limitations, or at least what I allow them to be at the moment.

Ax-man, no, haven't yet chosen the specific approach. I've climbed the maple up to about 20 feet (without rope), and there look to be a number of good candidates up there, but I haven't refined it yet.


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## Elmore (Aug 29, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> Elmore - Vonage commercial? Assume this is TV? I don't watch much and am not familiar. Is this relevant or an attempt at humor?



An attempt at humor.


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

Clearance, the the reason for going at this with rope rather than spurs is that spurs don't allow me to accomplish the second purpose of having equipment for rec climbing.


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## Trinity Honoria (Aug 29, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> Trinity, can't believe you actually referred to "cajones" (actual spelling is cojones)



i stand corrected... <sigh> no wonder i only passed Spanish in college by giving blood and bringing can goods for the hungry... or maybe i am the list psychic (no, folks, not "psycho") and really knew that was your name but tried to play dumb... 

yep, the dumb is the act... maybe.

just in case anyone wants to know about their "cojones", here's a test... but notice the spelling on the link!

http://www.queendom.com/tests/minitests/fx/cajones.html


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## Dadatwins (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks for the Pics, my assessment is dead aspen / poplar very brittle wood, loose bark when dead, not much holding wood, limbs tend to pop when cut and shatter on impact with the ground. Limb conditions deterioate very quickly so what may be sound this week, is ready to fall next week. Also base rot sets in quickly because of all the water in the trunk, so the bases tend to break off at or just below ground level and fall over without warning. Live this would be a great size as a training tree, but dead it presents a hazard even to a pro. Regarding comments of climbing up 20' in the maple without a rope, this is a big no-no, believe anything over 6' requires tie-in. Not a flame again, just the facts as I see them.


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## Ax-man (Aug 29, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> Clearance, the the reason for going at this with rope rather than spurs is that spurs don't allow me to accomplish the second purpose of having equipment for rec climbing.



I almost hate to say this, but Clearance is right, you are going to need spurs if your going to do this right. I don't agree with his other statement about not using a rope, I would definately have one at my side, the lanyard is a matter of choice, wire core or rope is up to the individual. Using climbing spurs leads to another thing to master, climbing on them, a dead tree is not a good canadate for this either, it is not as easy as it looks, there is a technique to this just like using a rope and working with a chain saw in a tree.

How is the condition of that tree at the bottom ?? Have you checked it out??

Larry


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

Tree is definitely dead on top. But lower portion of tree still has limbs thick with green leaves (intertwined with maple limbs), and as stated in another post, I've "bounced" on the limbs I'm considering as perches. Also, no loose bark up to the limbs shown in aspen10.jpg. Especially if I use the maple as the high point, anybody got any serious energy for Dadatwins comments being a showstopper?

And yeah, I now know 20 feet without rope wasn't too smart. This was in the spring, before I knew better. Wouldn't do it now.


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

TreeCo, based on what I've read, my guess is root rot. Agreed?

Given the implications, even though I haven't dealt with this sooner, are you at all surprised that now that I've engaged, I've done so aggressively?


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## EngineerDude (Aug 29, 2005)

TreeCo, thanks for the input.

At this point I'm abandoning this thread and a parallel thread on the Buzz.

It'll take a couple of days before I come to a final conclusion as to how to proceed. You state that the communities on these sites are "not really very impressed". Not really sure how to interpret that, but your comment is enough to lead me to the conclusion that this pursuit isn't going to take me where I expected it would. Unrealistic expectations on my part, perhaps.

Thanks to all who have provided productive comments.


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## NickfromWI (Aug 30, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> I've figured this out on a conceptual level, and am confident I can make this work.



This mentality is responsible for the death of many men. Be careful.

love
nick


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## Elmore (Aug 30, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Do you know what has most likely happened to a tree that dies from the top down?
> 
> Dan


It gets shorter.


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## Dadatwins (Aug 30, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> Especially if I use the maple as the high point, anybody got any serious energy for Dadatwins comments being a showstopper?



Showstopper??? That a new one on me, I thought the guy asked for help and I offered my assessment on the tree. I usually charge $20.00 for the same if I had to drive out and do that locally, but he gets it for free and then runs off and hides. Good luck with your your climbing career ED.


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## Chuck R (Aug 30, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> And yeah, I now know 20 feet without rope wasn't too smart. This was in the spring, before I knew better. Wouldn't do it now.



Imagine the other million details and variables that fall into this category...

I too am an engineer and a new rec climber. (You guys are thinking "Oh, great!") Been climbing 8 months and have done around 50 climbs. Those climbs have taught me that I have barely scratched the surface. Have I done some trimming? Well, yes. (I own 3 saws.) Should I have done? Probably not. Would I block down a big tree? Nope. Would I climb with spurs. Hopefully never, unless I take up a new career.

I certainly would encourage dude to climb and hang out here. What a blast, particularly if you love trees and the outdoors. Right now I am loving my new econoledge hanging over the "big lake".


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## R Schra (Aug 30, 2005)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by EngineerDude
> > I've figured this out on a conceptual level, and am confident I can make this work.
> 
> ...




For that, nick, it should be read as 

*I've* figured this out on a conceptual level, and am confident *YOU* can make this work.



Ronald


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## Proj Eng (Aug 30, 2005)

I still don't see why you can't just dump the sucker across that driveway (pic #1). Sure, it'd be between the house and the other tree but looks to be simpler/cheaper than the sunken cost for a hobby. In a worst case scenario, damaging the house won't land you in the hospital or leave you scarred. 
Or... I thought take down's were cheap? Forget cleanup costs, just a takedown?


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## Ax-man (Aug 30, 2005)

We never got this far, but my first question would be is how much are those side limbs on the Popular growing into or are entangled in the neighboring Maple. To my way of thinking those would have to be the first to go, if they are into the Maple quite a ways. OH, I forgot those are perches so they have to stay.

Larry


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 30, 2005)

ED claimed to be leaving the parallel TB/AS discussions. I see that he hasn't yet.

IN case you are still here, you're walking on a thin limb claiming that your engineering education qualifies you to do takedowns. Five years ago, almost to the day, another engineer with a Doctorate in his resume, was killed doing a takedown that he wasn't prepared to do. His lack of tree knowledge lead him to doing something that he wasn't prepared to do. To give you an idea of this man's place in the arbo profession, I'll illustrate his connection to us. The accident happened in mid-afternoon. When I got home from our chapter TCC I had three seperate email announcments that had started about three hours previous. All three of them had circled the globe in forwards to friends in the industry. No matter, he is dead still.

There is no doubt in my mind that you understand the science of tree takedowns. How do you plan on learning the art? After looking at your pictures I'd be pretty concerned about climbing the tree. I've been working in the profession for close to forty years and climbing for thirty. What does that mean to you? 

If you choose to go on with this project you might consider taking the feasibility acid test. Print out all of the threads from TB and AS. Without any pump-priming have your wife, I'm making an assumption based on your "honey-do" comment, read them. Then, ask her if she still wants you to go ahead. If I make a wrong assupmtion about a spouse, ask your next of kin or a close friend. If they think that you're qualified, go ahead, climb on!

Have you bought the video series "The Art and Science of Practical Rigging" ? The man who was killed wrote the script for the book and videos. The ASPR'N series is considered by many in the profession the best instructions available. Pete Donzelli still lacked the understanding of the variablility of trees, especially decayed ones, that migh have kept him alive. 

How about making up a map to show us how the yard is laid out. Show tree and house locations and tree heights.It sure looks like the aspen would be a flopper directly towards the camera in one of the long/wide pics that you posted. 

What kind of engineering do you practice? Can you share some insights into what type of projects that you've worked on?

PS...is this an attempt by the mods at humor? RTC? I agree, it seems like the thread is on the way to the accident/death forum. Pretty macabre....


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## Stumper (Aug 30, 2005)

Tom , You aren't telling ED what he wants to hear.

Dude, Just shinny up there with some utility rope tied to your belt and whack it down in pieces. You will probably survive-most people get away with doing stuff they aren't qualified for a few times. On a more serious note-it isn't a very complex tree-decay is the only big concern. If you spent over 100 hours of your time "preparing" you are getting a lousy return on your investment-An hour spent with professionals who came to bid and a few hours of you working at YOUR profession to pay the bill would have it done already.


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## Acer (Sep 2, 2005)

I know many people with an awful lot of climbing experience simply wouldn't climb such a tree. They'd get a work platform (aka bucket) in and work from that.
I think Tom Dunlap's comments hit the nail squarely on the head.

EngineerDude, you seem to believe that everything can be learned through bookwork. I have a reference for you.

Kruger, J. & Dunning, D., 1999. "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments *Journal of Personality and Social Psychology* December 1999 Vol. 77, No. 6, 1121-1134

To save you looking it up, it's here


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## jerseydevil (Sep 2, 2005)

what is your time worth? I thought engineers made decent money. Why not just pay the 200 bucks or so to have it dropped and removed. I mean if you really want it gone soon. That way the problem is solved and you can practice climbing. I am no expert but your ideas seem out of touch with reality. You could drop that tree whole, and land it on a dime. Just use the force, like that little green dude did in that movie about those starwars. I think it was called Fighting Green Guys In Space.
Good luck ED. don't forget to let us know how you do it and how it goes. :alien:


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## clearance (Sep 3, 2005)

I never said not to climb the tree without a rope. I said it might not be needed, always take a rope up in the tree with you, always.


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## RedlineIt (Sep 5, 2005)

Engineerdood,

If you believe that climbing with spurs means you won't have a rope and saddle to go Rec-climb, I don't know what to say, other than that the Arbormaster courses can't happen soon enough for you.

Oh, I forgot, you're an engineer and have a better understanding of the "phyics" (sp) than the average arborist.

Wait a minute, you never actually claimed to be an engineer. Just that you have an engineering background. Care to expand on that?

On the other hand the tree is a piece of piss. (Local slang for easy).

You are on the right track to tie into the taller maple, it is what I would do if I doubted the dead top at all.

I know you started this thread asking about rope "Feel" and climber preference for rope, but it is immaterial. I have long and short climb ropes of old and new from different sources, I know what to expect from each rope because I know each rope, personally. I like light, next guy likes heavy.

Next, and this is the best piece of advice I can give you, do this, your first removal with a brand new hand-saw. I saw nothing in your photos you need to put a chainsaw to before it can be dropped from the ground.

Take the chainsaw out of the picture. The new handsaws are awsome! You'll get more exersize, you'll be much safer and you don't intend to Rec-climb with a chainsaw anyway.

RedlineIt


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## BostonBull (Sep 5, 2005)

EngineerDude said:


> As to training, I'm leaning toward one or more of the ArborMaster sessions coming to Syracuse in October. That's another part of the process..




You do realize that Rip and Ken (Owners) DO NOT allow homeowners into their programs right? And they will find out QUICK if you are not an arborist or arborist in training with a real co.

Happened last month in my Arbormaster Class I took and they kicked the guy and his girl out NO refund!


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## Chuck R (Sep 6, 2005)

BostonBull said:


> Happened last month in my Arbormaster Class I took and they kicked the guy and his girl out NO refund!



Really!?! What happens if they find out that you rented their videos? My wife even watched most of it.


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## BostonBull (Sep 8, 2005)

Cant comment but the way Rip stated was ARBORMASTER is for ARBORists! Hence the name if it was for homeowners he may have called it tree training for everyone.


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## BostonBull (Sep 8, 2005)

Plus think of the liability he would have if any homeowner came in tooka 2 dy course on climbing and then went and killed themselves!


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 8, 2005)

BostonBull said:


> Plus think of the liability he would have if any homeowner came in tooka 2 dy course on climbing and then went and killed themselves!



There wouldn't be any difference if anyone took the class. That's what liablility insurance is for.


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## helpmytrees (Sep 9, 2005)

Who wants insurance as protection against a multi-million dollar lawsuit (and there are maximums on that coverage) brought on by a rich guys family claiming neglegent training of regular Joe. Besides, you gotta keep Tom, **** and Harry out of programs like this unless they are looking for a career. There is doctor assisted suiside in some states so you could avoid the training altogether.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 10, 2005)

I'm not making my point clear I guess.

ANYONE can bring a suit against an instructor or trainer. If I chose to take an AM class and got hurt using something that I learned there I could sue them. The chance of me collecting might be much less than a non-pro climber, but the novice pro climber would have just as good a chance of collecting as the non-pro. 

If a case can be made that something wasn't covered in the training there is a basis for a suit. Right or wrong, that's the way it is in the US.

It's a shame for the people who got booted that they weren't told about the qualifications needed to attend the class. I'm betting that there might be more to the story than we're getting here.


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## helpmytrees (Sep 10, 2005)

Whatever on the lawsuits, the legal fees they would incur to fight the lawsuits could be devastating enough. Agree on the unfortunate aspect. Also agree that there is likely more to the story.


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## Dadatwins (Sep 10, 2005)

I am sure there is some type of disclaimer that must be signed prior to participating in the class. Those folks have been giving those classes a while, have the blessing of the ISA and follow strict ANSI requirements, and I am sure they talked to some legal counsel to protect themselves. Don't know why they would deny anyone from participating in a training class, regardless of skill level, unless they felt it was a liabilty issue for the company. JMO

Back to original thread, Engineer Dude, where are you on the tree removal?


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## helpmytrees (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey Dada, check the new thread "lighter/heavier #2" still in rec climbing forum for the latest.


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## EngineerDude (Sep 23, 2006)

*Lighter/thinner - brief revival*

Been a long time since I've visited this forum. Been meaning to do so throughout the summer, but things have been too busy. Raining here today, though, so it seems like a good time to post that the aspen removal that was discussed (energetically at times) last summer was completed successfully earlier this year. With rope high in the adjacent maple, I was able to get over and top the aspen. (Ax-man, as I intuitively knew would be the case, your prediction that the rope angles would work against me was certainly true. Getting properly (safely/securely) positioned was the most strenuous physical thing I've done in a while.) Once past the topping, positioning myself lower was much easier. Rigged the top and the next piece, then chunked down 2 or 3 more pieces w/o rigging, and the last 12 feet or so was just dropping the stem. No injuries, no damage to house or property, etc.

Also, took down another tree this summer. 75-foot red maple in back yard, 3 feet in diam @ 2 feet above ground, 10 feet from house, 5 feet from deck. Limbed if from down to up (lots of rigging), then topped it to 45-foot twin spars, then dropped the spars. Again, no injuries. Also, no damage to my deck, house or the neighbor's house, the latter an issue as several 10 to 12-inch diam limbs hung partially over it.

In both cases, safety was the first priority. Planning and preparation were commensurate.

By the way, all who told me running a chainsaw in a tree (used in both removals) was challenging were correct. It is an interesting mental hurdle. Definitely not something I'd choose as weekend relaxation.

Anyway, just wanted to bring closure to this. In particular, wanted to leave no questions as to whether this had ended up in the fatalities category.

Thanks to all those who provided positive input to the original thread, and even to some of those who offered sarcasm and abuse. To the latter group, you strengthened my resolve.


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## Dadatwins (Sep 24, 2006)

I am glad the removal went well and no injury to report, just one question based on all the research and reading you did before starting the job, did the job seem easier on paper than actually being in the tree?


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## EngineerDude (Sep 24, 2006)

Dada,

I expected it to be difficult, but I must admit that yes, it was at times far more difficult than I thought it would be.

In retrospect these two trees were probably not optimum removals for a novice, but my real point with this comment is that the process of insuring I was confident that my actions were safe to both people and property led to an unanticipated inefficiency. As it relates particularly to the potential for property damage, had these trees been in the open, I could have been more aggressive in my approach. Bottom line on this, these were probably not the place to learn the paths that long limbs follow as they drop, etc.

Also, as many suggested to me before I began, running a saw in a tree is different from running it on the ground. Firing it up aloft for the first time was definitely an adrenaline moment! And, my saw was too big (Jonsered 2159) and the rear handle was awkward. If I had it do over again, or if I had more of these to do, I'd probably go with a Stihl 200T. The difficulty and overall challenge of running this too big saw in the tree was made worse by doing it without climbers. I'd buy some of these too if I could roll back time or if I had more to do.

Summarizing, proper planning and lots of preparation yielded successful results, but lack of experience and $$ constraints that affected equipment decisions made for a slow and difficult experience. But if I had it to do over again, I'd do it over again, just with the noted equipment changes.

By the way, having gone through this, if ProblemTree is reading this, with reference to his post "Hello !!!" in the Commercial Tree Care and Climbing forum, if you're not a troll, as some are suggesting, then my advice to you is to follow their advice and hire a pro. I know this sounds hypocritical, as they told me the same thing and I went ahead anyway, but as challenging as my removals were, they pale in comparison to yours. I spent conservatively a hundred hours researching, gathering data, and planning, and still I wouldn't tackle that tree as my first (or second, or third, or ...)

Last item, just for grins I'm tacking on a couple of photos from dropping the maple. Not fishing for comments, but just adding these because I know I like looking at pics and guess others must too. 133 is the best shot I have of early in the process, 213 and 218 are obviously later.


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 25, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> ED claimed to be leaving the parallel TB/AS discussions. I see that he hasn't yet.
> 
> IN case you are still here, you're walking on a thin limb claiming that your engineering education qualifies you to do takedowns. Five years ago, almost to the day, another engineer with a Doctorate in his resume, was killed doing a takedown that he wasn't prepared to do. His lack of tree knowledge lead him to doing something that he wasn't prepared to do. To give you an idea of this man's place in the arbo profession, I'll illustrate his connection to us. The accident happened in mid-afternoon. When I got home from our chapter TCC I had three seperate email announcments that had started about three hours previous. All three of them had circled the globe in forwards to friends in the industry. No matter, he is dead still.
> 
> ...


This exact story was going through my head the whole time I've been reading this thread. I saw the guy do a talk on dynamic loading. Throughout the lecture he repeatedly said, "I'm not a treeclimber, I'm an engineer." A few months later he was gone.

I'm glad you made it through successfully ED


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## CJ-7 (Oct 3, 2006)

Been a while since I posted, but Like ED, I too am an engineer and a rec climber. While engineers are certainly not the only ones in this category, they are generally trained to set realistic goals, analyze the situation and risks, look at the alternatives, and plan a solution that will meet the goals and solve the problem within an acceptable level of risk. I'll bet there are a lot of rec climbers who carry a saw into the trees but don't admit to it as they will get flamed on this site. As I have said before, I believe someone like ED who has read of the horror stories on this forum and probably read a thousand posts, is in a much better position to climb a tree and cut wood safely than many wannabees who get 10 minutes of instruction by a hack. To me the key is knowing and accepting the risks, period.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 3, 2006)

EngineerDude said:


> Dada and Dan, you underestimate me. You both are absolutely correct that I lack experience climbing. But what I lack in experience I'll more than make up for with preparation, based on EXTENSIVE research into the entire process (I have well over 100 hours invested in this to date (including the reference I mentioned and others, the websites of all the major manufacturers and vendors, and significant time observing and interacting with local crews, most of which frankly do an abysmal job of respecting safety considerations). Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk.
> 
> Bottom line is that I won't be going into this or any other tree until I'm qualified to do so, but I WILL be going into this tree and many more in the future.
> 
> I obviously can't stop you from your curious, annoying, elitist desire to look down your nose at me because I lack experience, but I will ask that you please don't post any more replies that might encourage others to also close their minds and so not reply with helpful information.




"elitist"??!!

Maybe you should look in a mirror. Why do you think anyone is going to give you a straight answer if the first thing you do is insult them? You want to learn how to climb and trim trees? Join a tree crew, and express a desire to be a climber trainee (you'll probably have to feed the chipper for a few weeks first). 

Am I impressed with your impression of yourself:

"Beyond this, my engineering background allows me to understand the phyics of this better than the average arborist/climber, and the engineering mentality also drives me to consider the process comprehensively, minimzing the risk."

No.


It is very easy to screw up in a tree, even with all the knowledge and training of an expert. Here is a little quiz---maybe some others can add to it.



How are you going to get down if your jumars are jammed and you didn't bring a prusik loop to take tension off of the rope?

How are you going to move across the crown to another subtrunk?

Rapel with a figure 8 or friction knot? 

Should you bring a steel core flipline and a lanyard or just the latter,and why?

How do you get out of a tree you're top-roped in if your rope is too short?

How much of the top of a conifer should you drop with the first cut?

Where should you be?

Should the trunk be on your right or on your left when you cut a branch you are going to hinge/tear?

Why do you tie-in to two points before you make a cut, aside from a back up in case you cut the rope? (of course, with your research, you ain't gonna do that).

Why bring a pole saw in the tree with you?

BTW, I spent far too many years in higher ed. (biology, forest ecology) than I want to admit, and trees still surprise me, sometimes at inopportune times.


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 3, 2006)

Hey Doc,

He successfully completed the mission, give 'em a break, the Boys were kinda piling on him last year. He gave credit where it was due.


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## beowulf343 (Oct 3, 2006)

Doctor Dave said:


> It is very easy to screw up in a tree, even with all the knowledge and training of an expert.
> 
> BTW, I spent far too many years in higher ed. (biology, forest ecology) than I want to admit, and trees still surprise me, sometimes at inopportune times.


Boy, you are not kidding there! Reading about tree work, watching tree work done, and figuring out what to do is all well and good, but until you actually get up in a tree and see what can happen, (and how quick it can happen), you have no idea what the job entails. I swear i've seen branches defy the laws of gravity!


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 4, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> He successfully completed the mission, give 'em a break, the Boys were kinda piling on him last year. He gave credit where it was due.



I jumped in on the thread without reading the first few pages. I just got a bit set off by his tone in one of his replies. Nice to know he wasn't scraped up off of the ground.


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## EngineerDude (Oct 4, 2006)

*Jeez, I hope this can be my last post on this thread*

CJ-7 said:



CJ-7 said:


> ... While engineers are certainly not the only ones in this category, they are generally trained to set realistic goals, analyze the situation and risks, look at the alternatives, and plan a solution that will meet the goals and solve the problem within an acceptable level of risk.
> 
> ...
> 
> To me the key is knowing and accepting the risks, period.



Well put. And I completely agree. And in an effort to avoid another feeding frenzy on engineers and their attitudes, I wish to re-emphasize CJ's statement that the thought process he refers to is shared by non-engineers as well. It is this thought process that I'm focusing on, rather than education/vocation.

Still, the thoughts that some reading this thread will have is that lacking experience, I couldn't possibly have fully known (and therefore managed) the risks. My two-part response to this would be that: 1) if we all held to this position, would anything new ever be attempted? (and is that the way we want to live?), and 2) training, other life experience, and proper preparation do render it possible to effectively manage risk to an acceptable level. We all do this constantly in our daily lives. What differentiates tree climbing and all other pursuits that involve life safety is the fact that these are extreme activities, and in these situations the level of "acceptable risk" is orders of magnitude lower than for most day to day stuff.

By the way, I also respect the views and agree with the statements made by many of the others responding to this thread, in particular that this is a lot harder than it looks (i.e. from the ground), and that unexpected things can happen, generally very quickly, and that generally these are not good.

That's about all I've got left for this thread. So, now the work climbing is done (at least for now), and it's on to rec climbing.


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