# 225 acre hardwood lot worth ?



## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

Hey guys so I am from nova Scotia Cape Breton, recently bought 225 acres of with my home and garage on it , my father found a good bit of birds eye maple , there maybe some curley maple as well the lot over from me had some he had sold.

It's mostly oak , ask , rock maple some birds eye etc etc ...mature trees it's never been cut its on a slight mountain incline but I have a bulldozed road up it!

So I looked further into it and passed my number alot I got a call from a guy in maine which offered to come get some wood and asked if he could send a good crew down....I'm not experienced with this but from my research a acre will usually yield u 20-25 cord depending on the wood size ....what would good price on 50 acre section be ? Or same a truck load I'm trying to get some numbers together for when he makes his offer, once I said it was never cut before he go real interested .

Thank in advance guys


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## woodenboater (Nov 4, 2016)

If it's never been cut before, I'd be inclined to get a timber cruiser to take a walk through your land with you so you can understand what u have and the value of the woods. Would hate to see someone take advantage of you and you lose out on what could be a valuable commodity. whereabouts on the island, roughly speaking ?


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

I live directly on the Cabot trail furthest north u can come basically , the land is in big interval it is called and the closest town is Cape north! 

I don't want to be taken advantage of by any means I've seen 700-1200 per truck load but that wasn't for birdeye or curley maple


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## woodenboater (Nov 4, 2016)

Ah, near Meat Cove, a place I've been wanting to visit since hearing friends talk about their camping trips there lol. If your trees are big, there's some seriously expensive dining room tables in that there curly. I'm typing on one as we speak  Hold tight to them until you find the right deal, we ain't talking firewood here if they're prime trees.

tbh, I'm surprised someone from Maine is interested. That's a long drive and I wonder if exporting it will be a hassle for them as well.


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

Yea I am about 30 minutes from meat cove ! And he has bought from down my way before in margree which is about a hour and 15 minutes from me .

I wonder how much it would cost someone to come take a look I'd like him to come look at first also .

My neighbour used to do some logging and the place he sold his to exported them for Veneer I believe not 100% on it tho are we talking maybe 50+ thousand for 50 acre lot ? It's likely about 14 hours from Maine it is a long haul but must be worth it for him lol


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 4, 2016)

It's all about marketing and getting the right buyer. I'd think long and hard before you sell impulsively.
If the stand is cut right it will yeild large dividends for many years to come.
There are lots of variables here to consider. Was the stand a sugar bush at one time?
As already said, I'd call a provincial forestor first. I doubt that they will charge you.
The timber could very well be worth more than you paid for the property.


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

I paid 175 thousand for the house which is 14 years old a 24x30 shop and another serviced lot up the road that's why I didn't pass up the deal !

Thanks for the help I will also call them and touch base and see if they can point me in a good direction , I'm only looking to sell a 50 acre chuck maximum ..I'm in no rush I told the buyer that as well. I like to do my research on this stuff so I'm glad you guys are willing to help.

There's alot of sugar maple they had 100s of feet of sap line there about 10 years ago


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## woodenboater (Nov 4, 2016)

imho, I wouldn't let Maine dude come up BEFORE you had someone cruise your stand. You want to know exactly what you have, where it is and get some idea how easy it will be to log and remove. iow, will they tear up your land to get to it. The terrain around there is very slopey as is much of CBI when u get past Cheticamp

If that were my property (wish I had known...) I'd be looking at very selective cutting and if it opened up bike/ski/snowshoe/atv trails, that's gravy. As Gypo said, this could be a long term investment so go slow. I'd sooner let it keep growing than to sell it undervalued. 

Good luck and take a few photos if you go for a walk through the back 40


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

I will for sure I am in Alberta for 12 more days I'm in no rush it's something that came my way ...thanks guys keep them coming !


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 4, 2016)

Would you consider logging it yourself? Which is a dangerous, long and exacting apprenticeship.
If you contract it out and settle on a price, I'd make it performance based. Ten acres at a time..
Often times, the steeper the ground the better the timber.
Can you give us an average diameter of the more mature trees and an approximation of how many mature trees there are per acre and the species percentage wise?
A mature tree suggest 18" dia or larger or one that when hugged your finger tips barely touch at breast height.


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

I can try get all that information when I get home it's so spread out I haven't seen most of it yet . 

Just a picture from last spring that's on the ridge behind my place comparing to a mountain across the way..thanks for the help guys unforutally I don't have the time to do the cutting myself I work away for 2 weeks of the month


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## bitzer (Nov 4, 2016)

According to what Gypo has said in the past cut the absolute best of the best out. In 225 acres that would mean about 20 trees. Then move on. Also the steepness of the ground has nothing to do with the quality. Hire a consultant forester and find out what you really have. 225 acres is a good piece and depending on timber you could get 250-500 per acre in a select cut. Possibly more and definitely less for poor timber. Too many factors here without experienced eyes looking at the woods.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 4, 2016)

If you took 250- 500 trees per acre, there wouldn't be anything left, but then again Bitzer takes anything that makes a 2x2. Lol


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## Toddburton (Nov 4, 2016)

Not sure guys I'll have someone come check it out I guess, definitely not interested in picking put 20 trees unless it's worth the time and effort and with that I'd need to find a buyer for single or a few logs Ata time I'm sure...thanks for all the help even tho I'm more discouraged now then anything hah


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## northmanlogging (Nov 5, 2016)

225 acres sounds like it would have a fair amount of timber, I'm a west coast guy so I know nothing about east coast logging. But my advice to you is contact a consulting forester, or county forester and have a cruise done, that will give you a pretty good idea of what kind of timber and its value.

Also if the birds eye and figure maple market is anything like out here, 20-25 trees is more then worth the effort, roughly 2 log loads of stupid high value timber.


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## bitzer (Nov 5, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> If you took 250- 500 trees per acre, there wouldn't be anything left, but then again Bitzer takes anything that makes a 2x2. Lol


250-500 dollars per acre numb nuts. That would be the landowners cut after logging/trucking. In 225 acres you could easily cut 5-10 sawtimber trees per acre and that would be taking about 30 percent of the stand out. That will open gaps for regen and still have plenty of woods left. Hard to tell the prescription for the cut with virtually no information. I was joking about the 20 trees and move on. That's high grader stuff and it would be just plain stupid to leave all that money standing in there with little change to the woods. irresponsible really but that's what you've preached. Timber stand improvement is the name of the game if you want to make money off of your stand every 10-15 years. We do it here all the time.


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

Sounds about right to me i don't mind throwing out the adress Blitzer if u wanna look at Google maps or viewpoint u can get some satellite imagines , there is one cut to the left of my house that was all cut and split for firewood though! What a waste I can honestly say no one home realizes the worth of the wood we have around there I had no idea untill someone suggested it to me


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## Gologit (Nov 5, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Sounds about right to me i don't mind throwing out the adress Blitzer if u wanna look at Google maps or viewpoint u can get some satellite imagines , there is one cut to the left of my house that was all cut and split for firewood though! What a waste I can honestly say no one home realizes the worth of the wood we have around there I had no idea untill someone suggested it to me



Bitzer knows what he's talking about.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 5, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Sounds about right to me i don't mind throwing out the adress Blitzer if u wanna look at Google maps or viewpoint u can get some satellite imagines , there is one cut to the left of my house that was all cut and split for firewood though! What a waste I can honestly say no one home realizes the worth of the wood we have around there I had no idea untill someone suggested it to me


That right there happens all over, folks think oh I'll just cut it for the stove, meanwhile there's 10k in a 5 acre thinning and they still have loads of fire wood.


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

Exactly just trying to find a foristier now! Maybe some one in the provincial park can assit


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## bitzer (Nov 5, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Bitzer knows what he's talking about.


 Thank you Bob. I've been getting pretty good at what a forest needs for proper mangement and how to keep a stand as a source of income every decade or so. The local dnr trusts me to mark MFL stands now because they have seen my work and know what I'm in this buisness for.


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## bitzer (Nov 5, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Sounds about right to me i don't mind throwing out the adress Blitzer if u wanna look at Google maps or viewpoint u can get some satellite imagines , there is one cut to the left of my house that was all cut and split for firewood though! What a waste I can honestly say no one home realizes the worth of the wood we have around there I had no idea untill someone suggested it to me


Without feet on the ground its really hard to estimate the quality of timber. I will look from the sky when I have time but even walking though a stand a guy can be fooled. The trees might look ok but if it was pastured heavily at one point you might end up with a lot of hollow butts. Who knows? It's a gamble either way. I would get some history on your woods. Who logged it last? Was it pastured at one point? Ask around to some of the older neighbors. Old guys have lots of great info if they have lived there ling enough. Also find a reputable consulting forester or DNR forester (government). The government forester might even walk it for free and give suggestions. When it's time to harvest get at least three bids. Personally I would want to get paid when the job is completed. A lot of landowners will take lump sum at the beginning but any extra board footage coming out beyond the estimate you will not get paid for. If you get paid after its all been tallied well you get paid for it all. Make sure you get loads slips of every load leaving the landing. You may want to hire a forester to oversee if you don't have the time.


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

Thanks man ! Appreciate all your guys help and I plan to contact one on Monday to take a walk on my days off because I am getting a appraisal done on my house and land ...

The lot was never cut before only some fire wood never for logging purpose that's from my grandfather who lives there for 75 years


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## madhatte (Nov 5, 2016)

Forester here. I concur with everybody above: find a forester, get your lot cruised, make a plan, sell according to plan. Don't get talked into anything. Get second, third, etc opinions. Be informed. Trees will wait. There's no hurry.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 5, 2016)

I'd make some trails first throughout so as to access the resourse, then take one ripe pumpkin per acre for a cool 125,000 gross, but the grade has to be there.
Hard to tell without cruising it first.
You could also do a pre commercial thinning of the lower grade. Lots of options.
Pasturing a bush makes it easier to work as all the understory disappears and doesn't hurt the more dominant trees.
Keep us posted.
In the 2 weeks that you are gone Bitzer and I should have the whole thing pulped and pillaged by the time you get back.
I'll pay him a buck a foot to fall and skid, while I sit on a stump. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 5, 2016)

madhatte said:


> Forester here. I concur with everybody above: find a forester, get your lot cruised, make a plan, sell according to plan. Don't get talked into anything. Get second, third, etc opinions. Be informed. Trees will wait. There's no hurry.


Best advice yet.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 5, 2016)

bitzer said:


> 250-500 dollars per acre numb nuts.


Lol, I can see what a scam artist you are! I pay more than that for a single tree, but it sounds like you drive by all those ones. Lol


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

I have a bulldozed road to the top of the mountain or Ridge as we call it, so when whoever comes to look we will have no issues getting to it ! Big bonus lol....hahah you are funny gypo unforutally I don't think my community would let that happen hah

I totally agree with everyone I'm going to have one come in and see what he thinks it's hard to fund the right buyers honestly I tried a few and that is how this guy got mt nunber so we will see!


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## northmanlogging (Nov 5, 2016)

From what I've seen out here, most of the jobs I get I'm the only sucker that shows up, folks make lots of calls, other folks make big promises... but I'm the guy that comes out and sees what they have.


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

Fly yourself to the east coast and take a look hah


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## northmanlogging (Nov 5, 2016)

Me and tsa don't get along so much... they wan't to probe and I wan't to swing fists at morons... that and I don't think they will appreciate my calk boots... and the axe in muh carry on...

Seriously though 225 acres is worth a look, but I couldn't do it justice not knowing yer mills or markets would be a bad mix


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## Toddburton (Nov 5, 2016)

Hah, no worries my friend wouldn't imagine it'd be worth the driving for you to get the logs home


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Without feet on the ground its really hard to estimate the quality of timber. I will look from the sky when I have time but even walking though a stand a guy can be fooled. The trees might look ok but if it was pastured heavily at one point you might end up with a lot of hollow butts. Who knows? It's a gamble either way. I would get some history on your woods. Who logged it last? Was it pastured at one point? Ask around to some of the older neighbors. Old guys have lots of great info if they have lived there ling enough. Also find a reputable consulting forester or DNR forester (government). The government forester might even walk it for free and give suggestions. When it's time to harvest get at least three bids. Personally I would want to get paid when the job is completed. A lot of landowners will take lump sum at the beginning but any extra board footage coming out beyond the estimate you will not get paid for. If you get paid after its all been tallied well you get paid for it all. Make sure you get loads slips of every load leaving the landing. You may want to hire a forester to oversee if you don't have the time.


It's quite apperant, like your mentor, you'd give your father a blowjob to do your mother out of a piece of tail. 
Screw you and your forest prescription.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

Todd, please remember your talking to a bunch of americans lol to be honest, even though gypo logger is a ****'n has been cull he's probably the best guy your gonna talk to about this on this site simply because he cut hardwood back east for 20+ years IN Canada. the forest industry between countries is very different and while there has been alot of good advice given regardless you need to talk to canadian professionals. yanks can buy it but they can't log it. not trying to scare you off but this was probably the worst F&L section to post in for you lol if your into online discussion in the meantime you will have much more canadian industry info at the forestry forum.


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## bitzer (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> It's quite apperant, like your mentor, you'd give your father a blowjob to do your mother out of a piece of tail.
> Screw you and your forest prescription.


Thats very clever John. You come up with that on your own or you read that in hustler? When did you last mark a woods? Things are a little different from twenty years ago.


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## bitzer (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> Todd, please remember your talking to a bunch of americans lol to be honest, even though gypo logger is a ****'n has been cull he's probably the best guy your gonna talk to about this on this site simply because he cut hardwood back east for 20+ years IN Canada. the forest industry between countries is very different and while there has been alot of good advice given regardless you need to talk to canadian professionals. yanks can buy it but they can't log it. not trying to scare you off but this was probably the worst F&L section to post in for you lol if your into online discussion in the meantime you will have much more canadian industry info at the forestry forum.


Much different then getting a forester and a bunch of bids? Explain... You're Canadian. Let's get your insight.


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

Come on now guys I don't want this to turn into a battle of Canada vs merica...your all gonna move here when trumps elected anyways lol JOKING

Here is a small picture where u can see very little of what the woods looks like


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## woodenboater (Nov 6, 2016)

can't tell, cow or bull ? That's a good freezer load right there and will be great through the long winter coming up. moose ribs, moose steaks, moose burgers, moose nose (yano it's a delicacy right ?)...smoke the hides....


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> Todd, please remember your talking to a bunch of americans lol to be honest, even though gypo logger is a ****'n has been cull he's probably the best guy your gonna talk to about this on this site simply because he cut hardwood back east for 20+ years IN Canada. the forest industry between countries is very different and while there has been alot of good advice given regardless you need to talk to canadian professionals. yanks can buy it but they can't log it. not trying to scare you off but this was probably the worst F&L section to post in for you lol if your into online discussion in the meantime you will have much more canadian industry info at the forestry forum.


I genuinely want to know how is it different? 

Both sides either hand fall or mechanized, canada has some more hoops to jump through to be able to work, but at the end of the day we're just killin trees and shipping them to a mill, markets on the left coast are about identical except export, i would imagine the east coast wouldn't be much different . 

Maybe a few more regulations to weed through... or less hopefully less...


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

It's a small bull not mine ! My old man guided this kids dad years ago and the kid had shot the moose so the kid got his own tag about 10 years later and called the Ole fella back ! Had him within 4 hours lol...


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> Todd, please remember your talking to a bunch of americans lol to be honest, even though gypo logger is a ****'n has been cull he's probably the best guy your gonna talk to about this on this site simply because he cut hardwood back east for 20+ years IN Canada. the forest industry between countries is very different and *while there has been alot of good advice given* regardless you need to talk to canadian professionals. yanks can buy it but they can't log it. not trying to scare you off but this was probably the worst F&L section to post in for you lol if your into online discussion in the meantime you will have much more canadian industry info at the forestry forum.





bitzer said:


> Much different then getting a forester and a bunch of bids? Explain... You're Canadian. Let's get your insight.



don't think that could have been the good advice given? i have no experience with eastern sapling trimming but i hear it's a ****'n cake walk compared to **** here going by guys who have done both. it's rare that we even see a small time private show here and that's all you do. there have been a few cases where land owners weren't even allowed to log their land. **** like that he need someone in the know for. someone from here would only be able to tell him what he has. when it comes to "marking the woods" as you say you wouldn't know where to start here just like Jon wouldn't know where to start there.



northmanlogging said:


> I genuinely want to know how is it different?
> 
> Both sides either hand fall or mechanized, canada has some more hoops to jump through to be able to work, but at the end of the day we're just killin trees and shipping them to a mill, markets on the left coast are about identical except export, i would imagine the east coast wouldn't be much different .
> 
> Maybe a few more regulations to weed through... or less hopefully less...



regulations is the big thing. some lands were put aside as wild life tree patches years ago or can even be a part of an old cultural site. there have been times land owners can't even do anything with their land even though they own it. doubt a whole 225 acres though. regardless, madhattes advice was the best and he stopped it right where he had to because he cannot give anymore advice then that. for anyone from the states other then a buyer to walk his property would just be a complete waste of time. some hoops is an understatement too. i swear it's more work to keep people logging then it is the log lol at least here in the west. the hoops of fire is why he needs someone from Canada to look at what he has and hear his plan.


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## slowp (Nov 6, 2016)

Just wondering how steep is steep? Although anything can be logged, not everything can be logged with ground based equipment. The steeper the ground, the more your ground might be torn up. That all depends on the skill level of the logger. Also, your road may not be in a place that is ideal for logging. Maybe it is. 

Before signing any contract, check references! Local people know who the crooks are. Go look at an actual logging job. Look for skinned up trees, ruts, and locations of roads and landings. You might change your mind.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

I officially and sencerly apologize to anyone I may have offended last night with my snide and unwarranted comment.
When I die, I don't think I will be needing my snowshoes.
Sincerely,
John


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

Here's how it works: Proper forest management is a three way cooperation between the forestor, the landowner and the operator. A guy like Bitzer would screw you into next week at 500$ an acre. He simply just doesn't have the experience or marketing skills, let alone how to cut for grade or yield. He's the kinda guy you chase off the landing. Sorry Bitz. Lol
On a more positive note take your time before you sell. Government forestors rarely if ever will give you specific references, but rather a list of all operators. Private forestors can be in the pocket of a mill or log buyer.
Everyone needs to get their cut. Selling to the horses mouth always worked for me, sans any middle man.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Here's how it works: Proper forest management is a three way cooperation between the forestor, the landowner and the operator. A guy like Bitzer would screw you into next week at 500$ an acre. He simply just doesn't have the experience or marketing skills, let alone how to cut for grade or yield. He's the kinda guy you chase off the landing. Sorry Bitz. Lol
> On a more positive note take your time before you sell. Government forestors rarely if ever will give you specific references, but rather a list of all operators. Private forestors can be in the pocket of a mill or log buyer.
> Everyone needs to get their cut. Selling to the horses mouth always worked for me, sans any middle man.



quit talking like you know! your experience is limited to the fireweed and cullberry vinyards! now go poor another refreshment!!! lol


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 6, 2016)

$500 an acre?! The last property we did we paid about $120 a acre.
This property we are paying by load.


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

Haha my God you guys Crack me up lol! 
It's not overly steep and one deal that WILL be made is whatever road they use to get to the wood will be fixed as good as possible before they pull out and if they don't want to do that and respect my land I can leave it be and just hunt on it as I do and cut firewood , it's not a big deal I'm 28 and a pipe welder I just am looking for ways to get myself out of the oil patch earlier in life then I had planed sick of the traveling....it's no rush tomorrow I will call and see if I can find a forestier and start there.

It's not to steep to use a ported one was used next door last year for firewood lol


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> $500 an acre?! The last property we did we paid about $120 a acre.
> This property we are paying by load.



Hope your talking firewood at 120 $ a acre is a joke , I can sell a cord of hardwood home cut and split for 225-250


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Hope your talking firewood at 120 $ a acre is a joke , I can sell a cord of hardwood home cut and split for 225-250



Firewood and saw logs. No, not a joke, that's an average price. Might see 5 cords an acre.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

And i thought 7k fer a shy half acre was horrible


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> $500 an acre?! The last property we did we paid about $120 a acre.
> This property we are paying by load.


They are skining you alive Nate, the last 1000 cords I cut were free!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 6, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> And i thought 7k fer a shy half acre was horrible



I'm talking just the timber rights/stumpage, not buying the land too. Can buy wooded land around here for 1-10k an acre, depending on location


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> They are skining you alive Nate, the last 1000 cords I cut were free!



That was a state timber sale. We have done some properties where it was free, or even got paid.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Haha my God you guys Crack me up lol!
> It's not overly steep and one deal that WILL be made is whatever road they use to get to the wood will be fixed as good as possible before they pull out and if they don't want to do that and respect my land I can leave it be and just hunt on it as I do and cut firewood , it's not a big deal I'm 28 and a pipe welder I just am looking for ways to get myself out of the oil patch earlier in life then I had planed sick of the traveling....it's no rush tomorrow I will call and see if I can find a forestier and start there.
> 
> It's not to steep to use a ported one was used next door last year for firewood lol


Todd, lets make it simple. I'll pay you 62,500 for 250 trees, but I get to do the cherry picking.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Todd, lets make it simple. I'll pay you 62,500 for 250 trees, but I get to do the cherry picking.



i'm just hoping the stand isn't all looking like what was in the pic. gonna go do some slashing John? lol


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> i'm just hoping the stand isn't all looking like what was in the pic. gonna go do some slashing John? lol


Ya, Bitzer's probably got all the good stuff while the OP was away on the pipeline. Lol
I'm visualizing butt shatter, fibre pull and lots of jackpots.


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

No idea what any of these comments mean but u come in down give me 6200 u can have 40 acres of where ever ya want lol...

That was one spot in what 20x30 area lol ...


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

By the way look behind the guy standing in the pic see if ya can get ur arms around that one...lol many more like it


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> By the way look behind the guy standing in the pic see if ya can get ur arms around that one...lol many more like it


The tree in the picture looked somewhat burly and of low grade. When you get a chance could take more pics?
There are several different grade of logs. The best being a perfect cylinder with minimal taper and no visual external or internal defects.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> No idea what any of these comments mean but u come in down give me 6200 u can have 40 acres of where ever ya want lol...
> 
> That was one spot in what 20x30 area lol ...



don't tempt him. you don't wanna meet ol' cullberry vino. he's in the yukon for a reason lol


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## Big_Wood (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> View attachment 535658
> View attachment 535657
> 
> The tree in the picture looked somewhat burly and of low grade. When you get a chance could take more pics?
> There are several different grade of logs. The best being a perfect cylinder with minimal taper and no visual external or internal defects.



i don't recall ever being in the woods and being able to see more then 20' in front of me. at least before i hacked the area down lol


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

Ok ic and what kind of log is that ? Maybe it's all garbage know my land not sure yet I will let you all know tho !


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Ok ic and what kind of log is that ? Maybe it's all garbage know my land not sure yet I will let you all know tho !


I have the feeling that if you had much highgrade, loggers would be knocking at your door, especially the ones that logged you neighbors bush, but still you never know.
The pics I posted were Rock Maple and Black Cherry.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> i don't recall ever being in the woods and being able to see more then 20' in front of me. at least before i hacked the area down lol


You mean like this?


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

It was done by local guy 14 years ago that sold the outfit after 5 years or so he didn't like it , the other one as I said was for firewood for people around home, not arguing it very well could be junk if it is I won't be hurt just here looking for the info you guys gave me ! 

Those are some big trees man !we have rock maple at home as well


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I'm talking just the timber rights/stumpage, not buying the land too. Can buy wooded land around here for 1-10k an acre, depending on location



7k is what i'll get out of the timber... roughly half will go towards stumping etc, 150 an acre a guy would be laughed out of the woods around here


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 6, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 7k is what i'll get out of the timber... roughly half will go towards stumping etc, 150 an acre a guy would be laughed out of the woods around here


Not a bad lil paycheck. It takes me 6 months to make that kind of green up here, but expenses are minimal and the wood is always close by. Its a curse I tell you, it's a curse! Lol, but I like it.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 6, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 7k is what i'll get out of the timber... roughly half will go towards stumping etc, 150 an acre a guy would be laughed out of the woods around here



Yeah, but didn't you say something like 60 cords off 1/2 acre (even still way too much though, I've never paid more than $50/cord for timber). Around here we might see 4-6 cords an acre.


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## madhatte (Nov 6, 2016)

westcoaster90 said:


> regardless, madhattes advice was the best and he stopped it right where he had to because he cannot give anymore advice then that.



Zackly. I'd give anybody the same advice, too, and have. I've even acted as expert witness on a timber theft case based on the exact same advice, namely "this is what your forester didn't give you". I'm no expert on woods more than about 200 miles from where I currently live and work, and even then my expertise fails the further I get from home. Forestry is all about local knowledge. It's not easy to accumulate, and experts are few and far between. We call on each other a lot to fill in gaps in knowledge. That's one of the many reasons for professional associations like SAF (Society of American Foresters). It gives you an idea of who to call when you need to know something that you don't know. The rest is all about networking.


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## slowp (Nov 6, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Haha my God you guys Crack me up lol!
> It's not overly steep and one deal that WILL be made is whatever road they use to get to the wood will be fixed as good as possible before they pull out and if they don't want to do that and respect my land I can leave it be and just hunt on it as I do and cut firewood , it's not a big deal I'm 28 and a pipe welder I just am looking for ways to get myself out of the oil patch earlier in life then I had planed sick of the traveling....it's no rush tomorrow I will call and see if I can find a forestier and start there.
> 
> It's not to steep to use a ported one was used next door last year for firewood lol



What is a ported?


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

A Porter....couldn't put that one together?

Phone likes to spell and add words lol


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Yeah, but didn't you say something like 60 cords off 1/2 acre (even still way too much though, I've never paid more than $50/cord for timber). Around here we might see 4-6 cords an acre.



12,000 bf in three loads so far, another 7k-9k bf I'm either waiting on the check or its sitting on the landing or standing on the stump,

So 19000+- bf all said and done... ish... off .5 acres, not sure what that translates into cords, roughly 11 cord to the truck load. so 55cord?

I leave cord counting to the firewood guys. Pulp isn't really a market in these parts, and firewood has been taken over by tweekers and adicts, or dudes with firewood processors. For me to cut and split 2 cord a day, I would only get about $50 after fuel etc.

Then I don't really pay stumpage either, I go percentage of the load, easier math for everyone involved, 50% is the starting point. Roughly $90 a cord depending on species.


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## slowp (Nov 6, 2016)

So, what is a Porter? I've not heard of that.


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

Skidder Porter? Your logging machines not sure what u call them


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## slowp (Nov 6, 2016)

Skidders, we got. Forwarders aren't used much around here but I did see one used to tie a guyline to for a yarder set up.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

Porter is a guy what carries/drags luggage, usually at a fancy Hotel.

Skidder is a usually rubber tired articulating tractor what carries/drags logs.

Back east they are fond of forwarders, like a skidder but with bunks and a crane to load said bunks. Bitzer runs an older one.


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## Toddburton (Nov 6, 2016)

Yes that's the style home have there own picker and carriee to take the logs out on the SKIDDER hah


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## northmanlogging (Nov 6, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Not a bad lil paycheck. It takes me 6 months to make that kind of green up here, but expenses are minimal and the wood is always close by. Its a curse I tell you, it's a curse! Lol, but I like it.



If ya wanna be more then a little crooked there is lots of money in timber down here. The dude I bid against, bid 30k to stump it and remove brush, they keep the timber, and wanted 3k to move the machine in. The ****ed up thing is these guys are staying busy...

Granted I screwed this bid up, in I would clear it for the timber alone, so I probably won't make a whole lot of money on it as most of the brush is going to get hauled of at around 800 a load for trucking and dump fees.

I did manage to get a burn permit so where going to piss off all the neighbors and torch as much as possible.


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## madhatte (Nov 7, 2016)

slowp said:


> Forwarders aren't used much around here but I did see one used to tie a guyline to for a yarder set up.



First and last time I've seen a forwarder hereabouts was on Champion ground in 1996 or 1997. Haven't seen one since.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 7, 2016)

Forwarders were quite popular for pulpwood in pine plantations for row thinning. I once had a Treefarmer forwarder with an air cooled Deutz with an 8' bunk, but sold it because when loaded it had to much ground pressure and made ruts. They are a fun machine to operate, great for stacking and sorting on the landing.


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2016)

Processors and forwarders were and I bet still are, all the rage in Wisconsin. They cut short logs there, but don't have our clever style of log trucks so their landings are huge in comparison. Gotta turn that truck around. 

Two guys moved over to this side of our state from the east side, where they used a processor and forwarder. They did one flat unit, then discovered that short logs are not the best value here. They had a few yarder units to log so used the forwarder on one setting as a guyline stump. Then I think they sold their forwarder. 

Those guys turned into some pretty good loggers, but the economic crash finished them and they got into different lines of work. 

Don't laugh too hard when asked about how steep your ground is. Steep and how broken up the ground is governs where skid trails and haul roads will be located. Hope you get a forester to walk about with you who can explain that. 

In the PNW I have heard the tale that landowners had good timber for poles but they fail to realize that part of their fence, and mailbox and beautiful landscaping would have to go in order to make the corner and get the load of poles onto the highway. Sometimes things sound good but reality sucks.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2016)

speaking of poles...

There are a lot of good pole trees out here, but getting them to the highway is more trouble then its worth most of the time.

This job I'm on probably had 2 loads of just poles, but the regular trucks have trouble turning onto the paved road, imagine if they where stretched out another 20'


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## madhatte (Nov 7, 2016)

Arrh, poles are often more trouble than they're worth. If the expense to get 'em out outweighs the premium, they just became sawlogs.


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2016)

Yes, there's more to a timber harvest than just the falling. Time for one of my favorite pictures.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Porter is a guy what carries/drags luggage, usually at a fancy Hotel.
> 
> Skidder is a usually rubber tired articulating tractor what carries/drags logs.
> 
> Back east they are fond of forwarders, like a skidder but with bunks and a crane to load said bunks. Bitzer runs an older one.



I grew up in Maine, never even heard of a forwarder or yarder. Most loggers ran Deer 440s & 540s. Mechanical harves


northmanlogging said:


> 12,000 bf in three loads so far, another 7k-9k bf I'm either waiting on the check or its sitting on the landing or standing on the stump,
> 
> So 19000+- bf all said and done... ish... off .5 acres, not sure what that translates into cords, roughly 11 cord to the truck load. so 55cord?
> 
> ...



Yeah I'm not sure on bd ft to cords. I focus on firewood.

We have a sawmill, I don't run it though. There are no "mills" here beyond small Mom & Pops and we are all "tree to final form"

Well... there was a guy that came by the shop last week needing a bar for his Hahn processor (skid steer one). He contracted out to a guy, logging & processing firewood for $100/cord.... oh, that processor.... 1/2 to 3/4 cord an hr, not counting prepping all the logs (ie.... SLOW!).
I tried to get him to come work for me. Shoot a cost of $100/cord and all I'd do is deliver?! By the time I have logs in the yard and processed, I have around $175-200 a cord invested.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 7, 2016)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Yeah I'm not sure on bd ft to cords. I focus on firewood.


I always thought a 1000 bf was 4.4 cubic metres and one cord was 2.4 cubic metres, but the conversion is region and scale specific.
According to a calculator 1000 bf is 83.3 cubic ft which suggests 1000bf is a single cord, since a cord is 80 cubic ft of solid wood.
Someone with more math skills than I will hopefully chime in.
My feeling has always been that 1000bf was closer to two cords.
Maybe it's dependant upon weather we are talking roundwood or sawn lumber.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> I always thought a 1000 bf was 4.4 cubic metres and one cord was 2.4 cubic metres, but the conversion is region and scale specific.
> According to a calculator 1000 bf is 83.3 cubic ft which suggests 1000bf is a single cord, since a cord is 80 cubic ft of solid wood.
> Someone with more math skills than I will hopefully chime in.
> My feeling has always been that 1000bf was closer to two cords.
> Maybe it's dependant upon weather we are talking roundwood or sawn lumber.


Its deceiving, 1000bf is about equal to a cord, but board feet is assuming everything is square and solid. Logs are scaled in the round with most scales (doyle scribner et al) only accounting for the "useable" wood roughly one third ends up as waste.

Then factor in the space between fire wood, when its all said and done its about 3 cords per 1000 bf of logs. None of this is math to relly on though.

Also bigger wood gets more bf and fire wood


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## madhatte (Nov 7, 2016)

Yep, all of the above is true. I always eyeball it at about 1500 bf/cord, knowing that there's a lot of ifs left unaccounted for.


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## Gologit (Nov 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Logs are scaled in the round with most scales (doyle scribner et al) only accounting for the "useable" wood roughly one third ends up as *waste*.



Or, depending on the mill, everything that doesn't scale as saw logs...and doesn't pay anything to the logger either...winds up as _over-run._
Sometimes there's quite a bit over over-run.
They make some really nice lumber out of over-run.


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2016)

Odd, I always figured that a perfect load of wood at the perfect weight on a regular log truck was 10 cords. Perfectly 5mbf too, if the weigh cops aren't present. Weigh stations kinda keep things light and low.


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## bitzer (Nov 7, 2016)

2.2 cords per 1000 bf is the conversion standard here. Thats how guys get paid, things get scaled, etc. A typical truckload is 12 cords or 5mbf. Our trucks load themselves that's why they need to turn around. At the Logging show this year and the last show I went o was all forwarders, harvesters, and bunchers. Not a skidder on the premises. They did have chainsaws though. They don't embrace the hand cutting community that's for sure. Not a lot of hand cutters left.


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## bitzer (Nov 7, 2016)

Northy that 7k for half and acre was a clearcut right? In a hardwood thinning of 225 acres a guy could be pulling 225mbf out in a typical stand and in big timber maybe double that. I'm guessing by his location the trees aren't real tall. On average a landowner will get $250+ per mbf after logging and trucking.


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## madhatte (Nov 7, 2016)

Gologit said:


> They make some really nice lumber out of over-run.



Scaled vs graded is always different, more so at certain diameters. Here's a table I made awhile ago to help predict overrun. Look how the lines cross at around 40" DBH. That alone is a good argument, I think, for cutting old-growth, don't you think?


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2016)

bitzer said:


> 2.2 cords per 1000 bf is the conversion standard here. Thats how guys get paid, things get scaled, etc. A typical truckload is 12 cords or 5mbf. Our trucks load themselves that's why they need to turn around. At the Logging show this year and the last show I went o was all forwarders, harvesters, and bunchers. Not a skidder on the premises. They did have chainsaws though. They don't embrace the hand cutting community that's for sure. Not a lot of hand cutters left.



We have piggyback (when empty) self loading trucks. No excuse for humongus landings!  Except when the helicopter gods are logging.


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## bitzer (Nov 7, 2016)

slowp said:


> We have piggyback (when empty) self loading trucks. No excuse for humongus landings!  Except when the helicopter gods are logging.


I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.


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## madhatte (Nov 7, 2016)

Mostly there's a shovel to pick up the piggyback and load the truck. Landing only has to be long enough for the deck, and only wide enough for the deck plus the shovel.


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.



A few are self loaders. Most are not.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 7, 2016)

Self loading trucks here. Granted there's only 6 trucks in the area that are road legal and we have 2 of those. Timber is not much of a economy here.
Been a few people that pissed off a logger enough that phone calls were made and they quickly became SOL for getting logs or having logs hauled. It's a small community!


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## northmanlogging (Nov 8, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Northy that 7k for half and acre was a clearcut right? In a hardwood thinning of 225 acres a guy could be pulling 225mbf out in a typical stand and in big timber maybe double that. I'm guessing by his location the trees aren't real tall. On average a landowner will get $250+ per mbf after logging and trucking.



yup scalped it down to nuthin, its really about 3/8s of an acre, the county hosed me on 2-3 loads on the other end... Normally the LO would have gotten 50% or so, so like 3500, but I'm stumpin this patch and hauling the brush... so we shall see where its at, at the end.



bitzer said:


> I know you guys have the piggy backs. Didn't realize they were self loaders. You need long logs to keep em together though? Maybe that's it. My landings are always pretty small but I'm usually no more than a mile off the road. Right now I'm using a driveway. Truck backs in.



All I use are self loaders, If a full size dump truck can get turned around somewhere and back in the self loaders can figure it out... I've heard stories of one of the old retired guys, reversing all the way up a mountain, his trailer was down, he's the one legged one, yacking on the radio and jamming gears on a 5-4, with the guys going forward having trouble keeping up...

That aside, most of the self loaders can bunk at 20' minimum, but they prefer to be stretched out, the way the piggy back trailers work is that they counter steer, so when you shorten them up too far, it gets kind of weird.

For now at least I don't think that using my little 120 to load logs would be wise, It could probably do it, but it wouldn't be pretty, at least not on a full sized truck, folks tell me I won't be able to unload the trailer either, though I wonder about that...

Besides the outfits with dedicated loaders here have trouble finding trucks as it is, so me and my 1-2 loads a week isn't going to have the pull to convince some joker to swing by and burn an hour while I **** about and try not to tear his bunks off.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 8, 2016)

Dis here's an older vid, fun job too, made some good friends on that one...


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2016)

Of course I can't see knots or shake or anything from here but that butt log looks like a nice stick.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 8, 2016)

lost of limbs, you know cause spruce... but was a good stick otherwise... think it ended up paying nearly 2k just fer 3 logs.


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2016)

Not bad at all!


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 8, 2016)

It's interesting to note the variances of weight, scale and measure between different log rules.
According to my copy of 'Log Rules and Other Useful Information', published Jan 1994 (third printing),by the North Eastern Loggers Association Inc.,:
1MBF of Fir Douglas green logs weigh 6950 lbs Int'l log rule, but 10,350 lbs on the Dolye.
1MBF of Fir Douglas green lumber weighs 4400 lbs
A cord of Douglas Fir green weighs 4200
Where'd all the wood go!
To be fair the above #'s were based on 12" wood and although softwooods are usually scaled using Int'l, the Doyle severely beats up on small dia. wood because its an exponential scale but evens out with the Int'l when log dia is around 24".


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## daniel george (Nov 17, 2016)

Hi Todd I have selectively logged Hard Wood on private land for decades with references to no end.I have cut all the species mentioned for Veneer and sawlogs with the by product for firewood.If the the stands contain figured woods such as birds eye and curly I have a market for that as well. My name is Danny George.Phone 902 533 3088


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## woodfarmer (Nov 19, 2016)

Toddburton said:


> Come on now guys I don't want this to turn into a battle of Canada vs merica...your all gonna move here when trumps elected anyways lol JOKING
> 
> Here is a small picture where u can see very little of what the woods looks like


I don't know the land out east, but for bush that's never been logged, those trees don't look very big. Most of our prime sugar maples are 24" dbh.


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