# Alright guys, let me have it.



## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

http://choicetreecare.com/pictures.htm#

I'm here to learn ( as well as have some fun ) so I may as well put it out there. I know our website needs some wok but it's a process that we're trying to handle ourselves and not have to pay anyone to do. What I want is your harshest critiques of my work. The oak was just a little deadwooding and getting the large branch leaning towards the house off but the comments I really want are on the silver maple. The customer did not want it taken down even though it was in bad shape. She wanted the danger factor lessoned so she didn't need to worry that it would fail and hit her house. We took close to half of it's height in order to accomplish this. Well, do some clicking and let me know what you think.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> On that maple you need to give your customer their money back and pray they forget your name.



That bad, eh? What could we have done differently?


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## skyhightree1 (Aug 7, 2008)

I thought the pictures were nice and clear but just my opinion the captions were going pretty fast I would slow them down if you can.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

skyhightree1 said:


> I thought the pictures were nice and clear but just my opinion the captions were going pretty fast I would slow them down if you can.



Yeah, I know. I just click 'em at my own pace instead of running the slideshow.


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## skyhightree1 (Aug 7, 2008)

whoopd read this wrong I thought was supposed to be judging the site...


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 7, 2008)

That was a pretty savage cut of the maple, just remember that often the customer isnt right. You should have the expertise and judgement in whats right to do with regards to the work on that tree. Think of yourself as a vet, your trying to do whats best for the tree while taking into account what the customer is after. 
I often quote jobs where the customer wants something overly severe done, I give other options and if they really want it done, I let the hacks have the job.

A job might be worth some money, but that tree and everyone who sees that tree in the years it stands (less years with a cutting like that) will remember your work.

Its a tough call to turn down money to do the right thing, but thats the difference between an arborist and a hired cutter/hack.


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## TreeChickee (Aug 7, 2008)

Yikes.
That's all I have to say about that one.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> That was a pretty savage cut of the maple, just remember that often the customer isnt right. You should have the expertise and judgement in whats right to do with regards to the work on that tree. Think of yourself as a vet, your trying to do whats best for the tree while taking into account what the customer is after.
> I often quote jobs where the customer wants something overly severe done, I give other options and if they really want it done, I let the hacks have the job.
> 
> A job might be worth some money, but that tree and everyone who sees that tree in the years it stands (less years with a cutting like that) will remember your work.
> ...



I get that. I know 1/3 is usually the maximum that we should remove in a crown reduction and we went to half in this one because of the proximity of the house and neighbors garage. I guess the pictures don't really do justice of just how bad off this tree was. One lead in the back was completely busted off and rotten, I chunked it all the way down to the trunk and it was about 25 inch diameter where it joined in. You can see in some of the pics just how decayed a lot of the wood was that we were removing. We tried to shape it at a higher point but could not for the life of us find any worthwhile branches to save. The only healthy ones were down low so we took it back to them.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> On that maple you need to give your customer their money back and pray they forget your name.



And I should get a clue. A guy like you would know better. Lady wants it done? Its done. 
Poor Blakey baby? No, he's a learning. Great job on the climb and getting it done. Now its done, let it stay done. The Dan abides. 
Anyman who goe up against a homeowner who want a tree at some given height like that and comes out with all ten fingers intact gets a PBR (@ about 28 degrees) from the cooler strapped to the pick- up. The Dan knows.
I do abide and I do bide. I am bide-ing time right now to see when the silver maple over my one neighbors house crushes it cause ain't nobody took a saw to it yet. Actually, they are in denial.
Let me ask you this: do you want to sleep or do you want to call 911? If they can't afford to cut it down at least... for now... one hopes.


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## epicklein22 (Aug 7, 2008)

I agree with Timber here. Don't do those hack jobs. That is your reputation on the line. I imagine that tree will go into shock soon, look at the first picture, then the last, just too much. I would suggest you do a crown clean and deadwood on these types of jobs. Opening it up too much will result in the trunk and crotches getting too much light. That will cause sucker growth and will also weaken the limbs.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

LET ME SHOW YOU HOW TO CARVE UP A HUNK OF SILVER! 
Shut up and start listing the logistic options... right NOW! 
Loud enough for ya NAilS? Come closer, my friend ( no joke), let's see how loud it gets.
I got some great pictures of some great maples.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 7, 2008)

OK Blakes, here we go, I'm going to be pretty critical but keep in mind I don't actually give a sh1t how you roll. This is only because you specifically asked for it.

The whole spikes are for sissies moto is tired. Good shots of Sean with no eye protection, one handing, running a saw that is not tied off, and sporting a large ear ring. Also, you state that topping is a bad practice yet you caption one of your pictures stating the tree is to be topped.

If I am seing something wrong, please disregard.

I like that you put it all out there Blakes, good luck with your gig.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

epicklein22 said:


> I agree with Timber here. Don't do those hack jobs. That is your reputation on the line. I imagine that tree will go into shock soon, look at the first picture, then the last, just too much. I would suggest you do a crown clean and deadwood on these types of jobs. Opening it up too much will result in the trunk and crotches getting too much light. That will cause sucker growth and will also weaken the limbs.



Alright. Now, I know the guy that I learned pruning from ain't all he thinks he is but I have gleaned some things from him as well as a lot from this site. I understand that suckers will come out at that these re-sprouts are not strong wood. But won't continued maintenance of topping the sucker growth and shaping the tree prevent it from getting to tall on this unstable wood thereby keeping it safe? I've walked away from jobs and customers that wanted me to do this type of stuff to an oak or hickory or a hemlock but in my experience trees like silver maples and willows will come back from this type of cutting. Granted I've only been in the biz 6 years so I can't see the long term effects yet I can only go on what I have learned from others. Does anyone know of a silver maple that died from a trim job?


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 7, 2008)

Abiding Dan, give a guy some warning so I can get my ear plugs in before you start barking again. I want to keep my hearing right where it's at, and throw me a PBR while your at it. Signed, Labowski.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 7, 2008)

Blakes, I think you did a great job on that Silver, well within reason. That sucker will leech up the water and do fine, no worries. I mean it's on a lake, no shortage of sustainance.


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## oldirty (Aug 7, 2008)

the dude!


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> OK Blakes, here we go, I'm going to be pretty critical but keep in mind I don't actually give a sh1t how you roll. This is only because you specifically asked for it.
> 
> The whole spikes are for sissies moto is tired. Good shots of Sean with no eye protection, one handing, running a saw that is not tied off, and sporting a large ear ring. Also, you state that topping is a bad practice yet you caption one of your pictures stating the tree is to be topped.
> 
> ...



I know you don't like the motto, Nails, we kinda do though. I'll try to talk the boys into something more professional before too long, I'm sure. Yep, no eye pro, yet. Not many services in our area do and I'm still undecided as to whether or not to force the guys to wear it all the time. And yeah, I didn't word the captions ( topping ) and that will be remedied shortly as well. In my experience, everyone one hands from time to time and yeah, my bro likes his ear ring. I didn't notice his saw wasn't tied off though. I'll need to recheck.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 7, 2008)

I'm stayin, I'm drinkin my coffee.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 7, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Blakes, I think you did a great job on that Silver, well within reason. That sucker will leech up the water and do fine, no worries. I mean it's on a lake, no shortage of sustainance.



River/floodplain. Same difference. Thanks for the comment.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 7, 2008)

The Silver Maple is truly a travesty. What the :censored: were you thinking? You are a senior member here, right? I sincerely hope that you are not giving any arboricultural advice to others.

You should have walked away from that gig instead of butchering the tree.


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## epicklein22 (Aug 7, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Alright. Now, I know the guy that I learned pruning from ain't all he thinks he is but I have gleaned some things from him as well as a lot from this site. I understand that suckers will come out at that these re-sprouts are not strong wood. But won't continued maintenance of topping the sucker growth and shaping the tree prevent it from getting to tall on this unstable wood thereby keeping it safe? I've walked away from jobs and customers that wanted me to do this type of stuff to an oak or hickory or a hemlock but in my experience trees like silver maples and willows will come back from this type of cutting. Granted I've only been in the biz 6 years so I can't see the long term effects yet I can only go on what I have learned from others. Does anyone know of a silver maple that died from a trim job?



Yes, you want to eliminate small sucker growth when possible. Yes, you want to try and keep the shape of the tree as much as possible. Obviously, you want to prune with the thought of future growth. You need to take smaller cuts...too much of cutting entire leads off instead of trimming the branches Do you use pole prunners, hand saws or pole saws at all? A chainsaw should be used sparringly and when you have damage and rot.


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## JeffL (Aug 7, 2008)

Two words on that silver maple: bracing cables.

Nails got me to it, at least on the one handing and no eye protection. He forgot the no ear protection either though.


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## DDM (Aug 7, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> On that maple you need to give your customer their money back and pray they forget your name.


Now Dan tell him what you really think! Thats a nice Maple bush you made there!


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## oldirty (Aug 7, 2008)

how come no "finished" shot of that oak? she was kinda looking broccoli-ish from what i saw. that and the silver got its ass handed to it. lol.

anyway if your trying to look pro you do kinda need to be smothered in the PPE. usually when i drive by a crew and see nothing by way of PPE i end up screaming at the top of my lungs out the window "HACKA!" and continue on my way.

not calling you a hack mind you but appearences are what they are.


at least when that tree does go south the HO's will have your number.


you gotta eat though right? 

i remember one time (at a company i dont work at anymore) we ended up absolutely beating the tar out of a bunch of tree's that where leaning over the pool from the neighbors yard and when we finished up i remember hearing the boss tell the HO not to tell anyone who did the work. lol, it was that bad.


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## capetrees (Aug 7, 2008)

I love it when the know it alls chime in. 
Maybe the homeowner wanted it hacked way back. The tree is alive for now and the homeowner payed the bill. If it dies, its probably not due so much to the trimming but the fact that the homeowner probably never did any maintainace over the years thus the configuration of the trunks and the fact that it was over the house, thus the trimming. Bottom line IMO, the homeowner still has a treee which, if it makes it till next year or the one after can be trimmed again to bring it back into a decent shape. Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

BTW, unless they are officially labled "eye protection" nobody can tell. And as far as hearing protection, who in here can tell if he has ear plugs? I always ear plugs and I wear sunglasses too. The sidewalk supervisors of the world have no real idea what I am wearing.

opcorn:


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## oldirty (Aug 7, 2008)

oldirty said:


> not calling you a hack mind you but appearences are what they are.
> 
> .




and for real, i wasnt calling you a hack.


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## wdanforth (Aug 7, 2008)

*Website*

I will let you experts critique the tree work. The website is lacking content. Add some basic tree care info - do s and don't s. Outline services offered. Choose a better job to highlight than the maple.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I know you don't like the motto, Nails, we kinda do though. I'll try to talk the boys into something more professional before too long, I'm sure. Yep, no eye pro, yet. Not many services in our area do and I'm still undecided as to whether or not to force the guys to wear it all the time. And yeah, I didn't word the captions ( topping ) and that will be remedied shortly as well. In my experience, everyone one hands from time to time and yeah, my bro likes his ear ring. I didn't notice his saw wasn't tied off though. I'll need to recheck.



Got some pics coming... if you see one of the 3 saws on my hip tied off let me know cause it must of been by accident.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

oldirty said:


> how come no "finished" shot of that oak? she was kinda looking broccoli-ish from what i saw. that and the silver got its ass handed to it. lol.
> 
> anyway if your trying to look pro you do kinda need to be smothered in the PPE. usually when i drive by a crew and see nothing by way of PPE i end up screaming at the top of my lungs out the window "HACKA!" and continue on my way.
> 
> ...



On the way to job today we had to head down a little dirt road that had a bridge( no weight limit posted), there was a half baked paving crew who had a triaxle parked on the bridge and some kig running a chop saw with nothing on his face whatsover. The noise alone would have killed ya. 
We drove by all slow just looking, they were trying to be cool but started to jump when they saw the crane coming behind me... moved that triaxle right quick.
i felt sorry for that kid with all the old guys standing around while they told this poor bastard it was Ok to cut like that. Chop saw into asphault and the bridge and no protection?
Ahhh, its nothing, wait till you see this crane.


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## mckeetree (Aug 7, 2008)

Sunrise Guy said:


> The Silver Maple is truly a travesty. What the :censored: were you thinking? You are a senior member here, right? I sincerely hope that you are not giving any arboricultural advice to others.
> 
> You should have walked away from that gig instead of butchering the tree.



Mmmm. I wasn't going to say anything but I could not have said it better. That was the most pitiful mess I have seen since Virgil Zatarain's dad did something unspeakable to a live oak in Fort Worth back about 1985.


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## capetrees (Aug 7, 2008)

opcorn:


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## Dillweed (Aug 7, 2008)

*On your climbing*

Cool slideshow. One piece of advice on climbing. Never straddle a limb unless absolutely necessary. Pro climbers never do that.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> On that maple you need to give your customer their money back and pray they forget your name.



Would you? 
Come on: need a guy for a little? send me some gas money, least let me get some floor space. I would love to catch up on old times, remember the old times? Hey , what do I know ? Don't remember having your old Aspy bucket swinging over a cliff?
I don't hack up every tree I see, only when THEY tell me too. 
Anyway Blakey baby, you rope cllimbing girlscout ( no, really, good work, hard stuff to do), what options did you adivise your client of? The answer to that is what will make or break you SO- Did you tell them all about it or what?


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

Dillweed said:


> Cool slideshow. One piece of advice on climbing. Never straddle a limb unless absolutely necessary. Pro climbers never do that.



well, what if you were up there on you lunch break trying to cook a hot dog with your butane torch AND after that you used the butane torch to light a joint even bigger than that hot dog? Would a pro climber do that?
don't bother with the wise cracks, you are talking to The Dan now or moreover, The Dan is now talking to you.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

capetrees said:


> opcorn:



You must be awfully fat from all the popcorn eating and spectating you do.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

oldirty said:


> how come no "finished" shot of that oak? she was kinda looking broccoli-ish from what i saw. that and the silver got its ass handed to it. lol.
> 
> anyway if your trying to look pro you do kinda need to be smothered in the PPE. usually when i drive by a crew and see nothing by way of PPE i end up screaming at the top of my lungs out the window "HACKA!" and continue on my way.
> 
> ...



sometimes they REALLY want you to grab some ass and start handing it back. Sometimes I say NO and sometimes I say " don't tell anybody about this"


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## oldirty (Aug 7, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Sometimes I say NO and sometimes I say " don't tell anybody about this"




lol. you're tapped. lol.....


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2008)

oldirty said:


> lol. you're tapped. lol.....



well you have to consider that you have to satisfy the person paying you and in their mind they want something to be a particular way. Actually they want it a few ways, cheap and painless being a few. Some say " I just want it that way NOW, I want to take it down eventually...".
But one must be able to list all the things that come into play when dealing with a silver like that. Let em make their own GAT DAM choice once you have given the right advise.
Also Blakey is going to bust a few eggs and break a few hearts before his led Zepplin is running full speed like clockwork. Its all about seeing where the chips get blown if you catch my drift.
Rare is the time a client will opt for the " proper tree health technique", even with the right pruning and bracing the thing is still there presenting the same amount of variables. Some opt to just deal with what they can and the back- burner is a place we all know about. Its a tree, not a mortgage payment. Well actually it is. How much did you charge that lady to gomp up on that tree Blakes?
And then I get to a job where the place is full off half dead sapling in the way to a crazy TD and the HO won't let you even clear a path to the base of the tree.


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## Bermie (Aug 8, 2008)

While I'm waiting for the pictures to load....
You might want to refine your logo, it looks a bit like, how shall I phrase this...boy bits.

The only defense I can offer for an extreme reduction is to leave a nice anchor point high in the middle if at all possible, so you have somewhere nice to tie in for the sucker maintenance over the next few years.


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## treeseer (Aug 8, 2008)

Bermie said:


> You might want to refine your logo, it looks a bit like, how shall I phrase this...boy bits. .


Maybe that is intentional...

Nice job with the pictures and captions.

"Does anyone know of a silver maple that died from a trim job?"

Yes, i've seen several that rotted and split because huge wounds were made. That's the future for this one, I don't care if it sucks up Lake Superior and grows like gangbusters, there will be no stopping the rot.

"Yes, you want to try and keep the shape of the tree as much as possible. Obviously, you want to prune with the thought of future growth. You need to take smaller cuts...too much of cutting entire leads off instead of trimming the branches Do you use pole prunners, hand saws or pole saws at all?"

Excellent points. If you are reducing a tree, it needs to be done from the outside in. When will the oak close that big wound? Never. That limb could have been cut back to a natural shape. Broccoli-ish now, good term.

It would have been better to spike both trees and make the cuts farther out.

Good for you Blakes for putting it out there. Next, how about leaving the 200t on the ground for a while and prune the whole tree, and leave a tree when you are done.

Pros do not straddle branches?? Whaa???


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## Booshcat (Aug 8, 2008)

Getting back to the original question about the site....
If you widen the cross "tee" on the logo it will look less like a big D**k
As far as the main page...you need pictures, and lots of em. You can use the pictures as buttons as well
You don't want much, if any white space.
Check out some of the site building tools like Frontpage.
Good Luck


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2008)

Well I'll at least say that looked like some highly skilled hacking anyways. You just cant take every hack job tha comes along blake-and then to make a web site about it!! :monkey: Sorry man, tough crowd. Keep at it though you're learning, like someone said, smaller cuts man-all too big wounds. I kinda hate pruning but at least I'm good at it when I have to be. That tree to do the right way would have been a total pita but it looked like you had more to work with than you are saying there man c-mon.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2008)

mckeetree said:


> Mmmm. I wasn't going to say anything but I could not have said it better. That was the most pitiful mess I have seen since Virgil Zatarain's dad did something unspeakable to a live oak in Fort Worth back about 1985.


 Now I just know you've been licking yer chops just a waitin fer this one-I wasnt gonna say anything but, lol.


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## memetic (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't understand why blake & company didn't wear spikes for the silver maple.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2008)

memetic said:


> I don't understand why blake & company didn't wear spikes for the silver maple.


 A real climber wouldnt need them to get even way up and out there.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 8, 2008)

capetrees said:


> I love it when the know it alls chime in.
> Maybe the homeowner wanted it hacked way back. The tree is alive for now and the homeowner payed the bill. If it dies, its probably not due so much to the trimming but the fact that the homeowner probably never did any maintainace over the years thus the configuration of the trunks and the fact that it was over the house, thus the trimming. Bottom line IMO, the homeowner still has a treee which, if it makes it till next year or the one after can be trimmed again to bring it back into a decent shape. Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.
> 
> BTW, unless they are officially labled "eye protection" nobody can tell. And as far as hearing protection, who in here can tell if he has ear plugs? I always ear plugs and I wear sunglasses too. The sidewalk supervisors of the world have no real idea what I am wearing.
> ...



Aughhhhhh what would we all do without the sidewalk supervisors
and armchair quarterbacks  Blakes I am on the dial and spooky
of downloading a file so did not look. I have had some preservation
work that looked bad as half the tree was dead, so all you can do
is; drastic measures, if they won't take the suggestion of removing
and replanting a better suited species. I had one white oak this 
summer that I hated to leave but I informed the owner of the facts
and done my best to leave all the green posible but without suitable
laterals, it is sometimes hard to work on trees of this nature and 
never pays enough ime.


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2008)

What I'm saying is dont take jobs that you dont want to do because its hacking the tree to nothing. And dont sell work that you cant do properly. It actually takes some time to learn all this crap, jmho.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks to those of you that actually gave me constructive criticism. It is helpful and I will apply it in the future. We do have pole pruners and saws and I'm debating ordering the Silky Sugoi as well. The options I gave the HO on this one ( who happened to be my GF's mother, which somewhat hindered walking away ) were to remove all deadwood and sucker growth but this still leaves the height issue on a half rotten tree, take it all down, or do what we did. She chose the latter. So that's what I did. Maybe I could have worked the tips a bit more and tried to preserve more foliage but bottom line is if that tree were any taller it would be a danger to the house/garage. It might still die, and I informed the HO of this but she wanted to give it a shot so I said ok. Better it fail when small than when large, right?


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## tree MDS (Aug 8, 2008)

you could have reduced it a bit more gently is what I was saying-quite a bit, lol.


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## treeseer (Aug 8, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> T...The options I gave the HO on this one ( who happened to be my GF's mother, which somewhat hindered walking away ) were to remove all deadwood and sucker growth but this still leaves the height issue on a half rotten tree, take it all down, or do what we did.


Other options include cabling, to hold up the rotted stem, and to cut less. "Fixing" the height issue as you did is an illusion, due to the rapid sprouting to come. Your client/future MIL?/should have the sense to see that, as I am sure you do.

The Sugoi is an okay tool, but I make 6" cuts on oak with my Zubat all the time. That plus a Huayuche could have done a proper, outside-in job on that oak. Now it is more top-heavy and, combined with the decaying wound you left, will increase the risk that oak poses to the house.

I like broccoli a lot but trees that look like trees are safer.

Good job with the pics tho and for standing up to destructive criticism about irrelevant stuff like earrings etc. Keep working and keep learning like we all are, and clients will respect your opinion more and not demand hack jobs in the future .


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 8, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Other options include cabling, to hold up the rotted stem, and to cut less. "Fixing" the height issue as you did is an illusion, due to the rapid sprouting to come. Your client/future MIL?/should have the sense to see that, as I am sure you do.
> 
> The Sugoi is an okay tool, but I make 6" cuts on oak with my Zubat all the time. That plus a Huayuche could have done a proper, outside-in job on that oak. Now it is more top-heavy and, combined with the decaying wound you left, will increase the risk that oak poses to the house.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about. "Destructive criticism" "irrelevent" my @ss, I am looking out for the guy who is at a threat of getting his ear ripped off. You don't wear that kind of stuff in the tree. You should know that Joe pro.


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## capetrees (Aug 8, 2008)

I think Blakes latest post sums it up the best. She at least wanted to give it a try and, chopped up as it may be, it also just may live. Why not try. If it dies, then it has to come down. If it lives, all you genius' will be eating crow for quite while. I'd love to see some pics next summer to see what happens.


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## oldirty (Aug 8, 2008)

dont get the sugio. the handle sucks, it grabs everything and on the odd occasion will get pulled out.


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## treemandan (Aug 8, 2008)

oldirty said:


> dont get the sugio. the handle sucks, it grabs everything and on the odd occasion will get pulled out.



what is the correct pronunciation to that? sugg- ee-ohh, sue-guy-ohh, ohh I don't know?


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## treeseer (Aug 8, 2008)

capetrees said:


> ...If it lives, all you genius' will be eating crow for quite while. I'd love to see some pics next summer to see what happens.


It's how safe it is 5 or 10 or 20 summers from now that matters, not whether it "lives". :monkey: 

I never understood earrings on men, but the worst that can happen is a tear in the earlobe. Not a job safety concern that I can see. :Eye:

Yeah the sugoi (gee i hope i passed the spelling test; such hardasp critics here  ) is overkill for me; I traded mine away, but wish i had it on some jobs.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 8, 2008)

treeseer said:


> It's how safe it is 5 or 10 or 20 summers from now that matters, not whether it "lives". :monkey:
> 
> I never understood earrings on men, but the worst that can happen is a tear in the earlobe. Not a job safety concern that I can see. :Eye:
> 
> Yeah the sugoi (gee i hope i passed the spelling test; such hardasp critics here  ) is overkill for me; I traded mine away, but wish i had it on some jobs.



I had a guy come in with them in his ears, eyes, and nipples.
I told him out or home his choice 1 I ain't going to have a funny bunny around my as? 2 If he made contact with a powerline extra hazard and I ain't doin cpr on him. 3 I am an old school sob with an attitude about who hangs with me and it is my right to do so.


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## memetic (Aug 8, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> 3 I am an old school sob with an attitude about who hangs with me and it is my right to do so.



What about cock rings?


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## ropensaddle (Aug 8, 2008)

memetic said:


> What about cock rings?



I suppose I will not know of that to me it is stupidity anywhere 
but I am old school. If you want to be an idiot fine but don't expect
me to hire you and it is not discrimination. I should have a right to
have a representative of my company appropriate.


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## M.D. Vaden (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Alright. Now, I know the guy that I learned pruning from ain't all he thinks he is but I have gleaned some things from him as well as a lot from this site. I understand that suckers will come out at that these re-sprouts are not strong wood. But won't continued maintenance of topping the sucker growth and shaping the tree prevent it from getting to tall on this unstable wood thereby keeping it safe? I've walked away from jobs and customers that wanted me to do this type of stuff to an oak or hickory or a hemlock but in my experience trees like silver maples and willows will come back from this type of cutting. Granted I've only been in the biz 6 years so I can't see the long term effects yet I can only go on what I have learned from others. Does anyone know of a silver maple that died from a trim job?



What time of year did you prune that in that fashion - the maple?

Because if it was late June until about early September, not enough sprouts will come up fast enough to prevent sunburn damage.

That kind of heavy top growth removal should be done in the cooler season and probably not as significantly.

What's running the slideshow - it's a nifty setup.


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## Slvrmple72 (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakes, The Silver job was very rough but it will survive. I have seen them totally butchered, hacked to heck, even cut to a stump and grow back to full-sized trees. You will have to do a lot of upkeep as it grows new sprouts. On the whole ppe thing... Who will foot the bill for the first eye trauma? Removals are easy, proper tree care is the tough part and oftentimes the tough sell. I hate the "remove that big limb coming out of the base of the trunk" jobs because I know it will be the death cut for the tree and I let the homeowner know it. They call me back years later and I cut down a tree with a rotted out trunk. On the whole spikeless climbing thing ... to each his own. The website is off to a good start but keep tweaking it. Sometimes you gotta work to eat ... sometimes you gotta eat your work.


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 9, 2008)

Blake, good on you for posting, takes balls and an attitude to want to do the best to open yourself up like this. Your on the right track mate.

We get so caught ported saws, chippers, GRCS's etc that we forget that in such a segmented industry there is often a gap in discussion of how we should be properly treating those big green things that are so important to our lives.

I know your far from the only guy on this site that finds themselves doing work like that, we have all done the odd job we would rather not remember, the important thing is to relise whats the right thing to do. If we were vets we wouldnt do whatever people asked us to, why should arborists?

Again, good on you for posting this.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

Good stuff guys, thanks. Cabling was an option I hadn't considered. Feel like an idiot now. I also deserve a kick in the arse because of the sun scald issue. Just did the job last month. Lesson learned. 

As far as the Silky's go, the consensus is the Zubat? The main reason I was looking into the Sugoi was for the leg scabbard. I have enough crap 'round my waist when I'm up the tree. The scabbard for the Sugoi work for the Zubat? 

Earrings, shmearings. Yeah a bit of a safety issue, I s'pose, but I don't care what a man looks like, it's his skills, attitude and work ethic that count. I'd take my bro over a lot of Joe Clean-cuts that I've met in my days. My old boss ( a very old school guy as well ) was leary when he first met him but after the first 12 hour day my bro put in up in the trees last year he was all smiles and handshakes, "Thanks for coommminnn' out!" with him. To each his own.

Onto the oak. Lots of dead branches, over some serious lines, over a very main road in town. Last tree service ( who actually has a certified arborist on staff ) did the same thing to a different branch a few years back which healed/sealed just fine and recommended removal in the near future. The thing is old and big as heck. So we simply took off the most dangerous branch ( probably could have done a bit less but I hadn't considered it /hand slap/ ) , dead-wooded the top and told her to watch it for more dead and decay because it will probably need to go before too long. 

Back to the cabling. What method do you guys use? My ISA study guide seems to recommend the bolting method while my old boss was all about the wrapping method. Seems to me that wrapping would be better for the tree but wth do I know? Pros, cons, finger pointing, laughing at the new guy? Give it to me I can take it. 

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

Your favourite man with the penis logo'd company.

Blakes.


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## serial killer (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm not going to comment on your work, as there has been more than enough of that. But there are some other questions you had that I feel like I can help answer.



Blakesmaster said:


> As far as the Silky's go, the consensus is the Zubat? The main reason I was looking into the Sugoi was for the leg scabbard. I have enough crap 'round my waist when I'm up the tree. The scabbard for the Sugoi work for the Zubat?



The Sugoi is one of my favorite hand saws simply because of the big hook on the end of the blade. The thing can be used as a two foot arm extender when needed, which becomes a valuable asset in the tree. If you're reaching for a rope, hold the blade and hook it with the handle. If you're reaching for a hanger, whack it with the last couple inches of the blade. The scabbard for the Sugoi will most likely work for the Zubat, because it's a bigger saw. I'll try it out in a couple hours and get you a definitive answer by this evening. 

But a leg scabbard shouldn't be a reason for choosing a handsaw. Bailey's offers a product called the sawpod that enables you to attach any scabbard to your leg. http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=47360&catID=30



> I don't care what a man looks like, it's his skills, attitude and work ethic that count.



This is a dangerous point of view for a business owner. You may recognize skills and attitude in your crew members, but the general public typically only recognizes the appearance of skill and attitude. Looking professional is often more valuable than actually being professional. That said, earrings are not a big deal. It's 2008, and everybody has seen a heck of a lot weirder stuff than a dude with an earring. Neatness, a polite demeanor, and professional attire are what really count. By professional attire, I mean clean matching shirts and a bunch of PPE. 



> Back to the cabling. What method do you guys use? My ISA study guide seems to recommend the bolting method while my old boss was all about the wrapping method.



It's been my experience that a bolt is not a truly significant wound to most trees, whereas wrapping a cable has the potential to effectively girdle a tree and cause future problems. Minor movement from wind can over time cause a cable that is looped around a trunk to wear through the bark and wound the tree much more than a half inch drill hole will.


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## frashdog (Aug 9, 2008)

Maye I missed it in the post some where?

Are you and all your "climbingfriends" legit? 
Insured and covered under wc? I hope so, especially if you are putting yourself out there. 

If so please disregard the following.

On the topic of ppe. I've heard of too many stories here in NY state about people getting screwed when someone gets hurt on the job. 

I'm and independantly insured arborist (sole propietors exempt from wc in NY) that sub contracts other independant arborists, landscapers,ect..

I paid a lawer and accountant to set me up and point me in the right direction to be ligit.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

Yup, we're insured. The three of us are partners so WC doesn't apply unless the customer requires it. We walk away from those jobs. I have a running " Wth am I doing? " thread in the business management forum where I've been posting my questions and progress from uninsured, underbidding hack to insured, on the books, highly skilled hack throughout this season. Slow process, but I'm getting there.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yup, we're insured. The three of us are partners so WC doesn't apply unless the customer requires it. We walk away from those jobs. I have a running " Wth am I doing? " thread in the business management forum where I've been posting my questions and progress from uninsured, underbidding hack to insured, on the books, highly skilled hack throughout this season. Slow process, but I'm getting there.



There was this pic of the maple LOGS on the ground from this " pruning" job and the caption read " Maple safely on the ground" I thought: Thank F-ing God for that!
I mean, who has logs on a prune job? You boys got to get up there and tie in so you can do something. The work spent in the tops pales to what is invloved with moving logs. You need much more time practicing before. 
Treeco is right, very much so, BUT I always root for the underdog. How much further could you have tied in? What about this decay I heard mentioned?
I am sorry Treeco for ever doubting.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> There was this pic of the maple LOGS on the ground from this " pruning" job and the caption read " Maple safely on the ground" I thought: Thank F-ing God for that!
> I mean, who has logs on a prune job? You boys got to get up there and tie in so you can do something. The work spent in the tops pales to what is invloved with moving logs. You need much more time practicing before.
> Treeco is right, very much so, BUT I always root for the underdog. How much further could you have tied in? What about this decay I heard mentioned?
> I am sorry Treeco for ever doubting.



C'mon, Dannyboy. You could see how rotten those bastads were in the middle, couldn't you? I coulda put my fist through the middle of most of 'em and I ain't THAT strong of a fellow.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> C'mon, Dannyboy. You could see how rotten those bastads were in the middle, couldn't you? I coulda put my fist through the middle of most of 'em and I ain't THAT strong of a fellow.



It might be the pics but it looked like anything on the ground was more than substaintial for tie in. So it stands to reason that one could get higher in the canopy. You know me- the higher in the canaopy the better. 
Live and learn, get high, go up and ponder... you will see the cuts to make, you have to be the tree and use its force. loling but not as much as " " Logs from trimm job", Them's was really some logs.
Now come clean and tell us what you billed for both jobs. do you want to learn or do you allready know? Tell us how you feel about how everything was done from your side and be honest.... I sure Iam.
Keep climbing them silvers and such like that and you will get it. really good work though.


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## woodchux (Aug 9, 2008)

You have a lot of pics that mention being almost done etc. but still have deadwood and or lots of cleanup to do. When you use captions like completed etc. you should show pics of clean yards or
trees with out alot of deadwood. Also showing pics of prune jobs with huge bark peeling cuts will not help your business reputation.

As far as an earing goes...small studs or whatever is not a problem , but climbing with hoop earing is a bad idea. That hoop will get caught at the worst possible moment.

Be safe in the tree... it's a long way down!


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

Boy oh boy, wouldn't you like to know what I made? Honestly, until receiving the treatment I got here for the work I was feeling dern good about it, and my price. Now, perhaps I feel a little guilty but should the tree go south, I know I'll be the one to haul 'er away and I know that I'm going to be pruning it in the years to come if she lives. In fact I'll do either of those for free. Free removal to help assuage guilt or free trimmings to help make sure that this thing survives. Don't worry, I'll be sure to post pics when the latter happens.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

woodchux said:


> You have a lot of pics that mention being almost done etc. but still have deadwood and or lots of cleanup to do. When you use captions like completed etc. you should show pics of clean yards or
> trees with out alot of deadwood. Also showing pics of prune jobs with huge bark peeling cuts will not help your business reputation.
> 
> As far as an earing goes...small studs or whatever is not a problem , but climbing with hoop earing is a bad idea. That hoop will get caught at the worst possible moment.
> ...



Double check them pics, boss. You won't find a rip cut on one of my finished trees.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 9, 2008)

There were some rips in the pics, but I didn't see any on the finnished product.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

I know I caught one on the oak, but it was quite obvious that was not the finishing cut.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

*Honestly, TreeCo.*

My post began with, "I'm here to learn." Your opinion and even those knee-jerk reactions are fine but I must say, that as a mod, I think you should have done more to teach me and point out the mistakes I made instead of just tossing mud. But that's just my opinion, and it's your guys' site. Your decision, if you want it to be educational or just a flame-fest. Not my issue.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> My post began with, "I'm here to learn." Your opinion and even those knee-jerk reactions are fine but I must say, that as a mod, I think you should have done more to teach me and point out the mistakes I made instead of just tossing mud. But that's just my opinion, and it's your guys' site. Your decision, if you want it to be educational or just a flame-fest. Not my issue.



Yes, he is not doing a good job at educating the boys who are willing to go out and look bad. Maybe it would behoth him to try to help them look good. Maybe he thinks you are the vile source of his troll-like angst; the feeling that he alone ( and his cronies I am sure) is worhty of speaking for the trees. And a hallowed F-ing job it is. Treeco knows way to much about this crap and that is a whole helluva lot, it really is.
If you want to training day with a honest hustler the phone is open bubba.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Boy oh boy, wouldn't you like to know what I made? Honestly, until receiving the treatment I got here for the work I was feeling dern good about it, and my price. Now, perhaps I feel a little guilty but should the tree go south, I know I'll be the one to haul 'er away and I know that I'm going to be pruning it in the years to come if she lives. In fact I'll do either of those for free. Free removal to help assuage guilt or free trimmings to help make sure that this thing survives. Don't worry, I'll be sure to post pics when the latter happens.



That, my friend, is a dern good answer i suppose. But what in the hell are you talking about giving it away? Free removal to to what? What in the hell does assuage mean?
Quick, tell me, how many years you got into trees total, that's real trees not no landscraping or anything TREES!


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Yes, he is not doing a good job at educating the boys who are willing to go out and look bad. Maybe it would behoth him to try to help them look good. Maybe he thinks you are the vile source of him troll-like angst- the feeling that he alone ( and his cronies I am sure) is worhty of speaking for the trees. And a hallowed F-ing job it is. Treeco knows way to much about this crap and that is a whole helluva lot, it really is.
> If you want to training day with a honest tree hustler the phone is open bubba.



Dan. I read that 3 times and still can't figure out what the heck you are saying. S'all right. I'm not here to p*** off a mod, or start a war, just wanted to learn some stuff, which I did, thanks guys.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> That, my friend, is a dern good answer i suppose. But what in the hell are you talking about giving it away? Free removal to to what? What in the hell does assuage mean?
> Quick, tell me, how many years you got into trees total, that's real trees not no landscraping or anything TREES!



Assuage? Google it, Dan. You're sure to have better luck with that than I did with "behoth". And I got about 6 years in, honey.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 9, 2008)

treemandan said:


> That, my friend, is a dern good answer i suppose. But what in the hell are you talking about giving it away? Free removal to to what? What in the hell does assuage mean?
> Quick, tell me, how many years you got into trees total, that's real trees not no landscraping or anything TREES!



Dan, I think he meant "sausage".


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I didn't have time at the time. Please take my comment as coming 100%from a disgusted arborist, and 0% from a mod!



Understood. Sometimes it's hard to not do the absolute right thing when more important stuff is at stake. Kinda have to see the whole picture and put it into perspective sometimes.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 9, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Dan, I think he meant "sausage".



Don't be pickin' on my logo, Nails.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Dan. I read that 3 times and still can't figure out what the heck you are saying. S'all right. I'm not here to p*** off a mod, or start a war, just wanted to learn some stuff, which I did, thanks guys.



Yeah, there are somes lines to read between. Its not you tryin to piss off a mod that is for sure. 
Treeco had a crew, the first crew I ever worked on back in the winter of 91. Probably a crew that would send you scurrying back to the man cab. I could see then that Treeco put his heart and soul into it,no joke. 
Treeco knows the ins and outs of this business better than any one man could.He truly is a stone cold 100% arborist like he said. This guy is a real old time stickler, ornery about his craft to the hilt. 
Treeco, now, hates my F-ing guts so now you know. you think you have disgusted him?


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Assuage? Google it, Dan. You're sure to have better luck with that than I did with "behoth". And I got about 6 years in, honey.



behooved?


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## oldirty (Aug 9, 2008)

you and treeco got some history? 

what happened treeco you run "the dan" off your squad a few years back?


i still have a strong dislike (but respect) for the guy who canned me......twice. prick that he is. lol


tman, treeco pay well or is he tight with it?


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

oldirty said:


> you and treeco got some history?
> 
> what happened treeco you run "the dan" of your squad a few years back?
> 
> ...



Treeco is cool as ####.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Nope, didn't run him off. He left of his own accord and moved from the area. His name was Ben back then. I had one guy leave and join the circus but I don't think it was him but it may have been.



I never thought there were anybad feelings whatsoever. had agood time for the season i stayed. Even back then he was tight with his chops.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 9, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Don't be pickin' on my logo, Nails.



You love it! Got the modified designed yet, I have a few ideas.


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## treemandan (Aug 9, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> .



what I want to know is where that great sense of humour went. No more bubba's?
Got some pics of my rigs from the early ninties on up. I hope they come out.


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## treemandan (Aug 10, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Same as it ever was!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZONBKy7qNw



I am still waiting on the road to nowhere and feeling crosseyed and painless, sounds like you are speaking in tongues. what is this?


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## Eagle1 (Aug 10, 2008)

Not a bad job at all. A large Silver Maple is not easy to reduce without it looking alittle.....topped. But good work.


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## wdanforth (Aug 10, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Same as it ever was!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZONBKy7qNw



Now that was some good humor! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treemandan (Aug 10, 2008)

wdanforth said:


> Now that was some good humor! :hmm3grin2orange:



ques que ce'?


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 10, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> You love it! Got the modified designed yet, I have a few ideas.



Yup, I just lengthened the T in the middle like was suggested by the other guy. This was done a few months back too. The Yellow pages add has the new one as does our new T-shirt design. Same with the trucks too, I think. Just haven't updated the website yet.


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## tree MDS (Aug 10, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yup, I just lengthened the T in the middle like was suggested by the other guy. This was done a few months back too. The Yellow pages add has the new one as does our new T-shirt design. Same with the trucks too, I think. Just haven't updated the website yet.


 Should have left it the other way, maybe you'd get alot of chicks calling, lol. Kind of the old subliminal message thing-might have worked out sweet, who knows! I dont work for enough chicks thats for sure, lol.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 10, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> Should have left it the other way, maybe you'd get alot of chicks calling, lol. Kind of the old subliminal message thing-might have worked out sweet, who knows! I dont work for enough chicks thats for sure, lol.



I know, right? You should see the design we got coming for our girls. 

Choice Tree Care Chicks
Too Good For Small Wood


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## tree MDS (Aug 10, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> I know, right? You should see the design we got coming for our girls.
> 
> Choice Tree Care Chicks
> Too Good For Small Wood



Yeah right! just a big fat #@#% and $#@%$ on the chip box, lol.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't learn this much in 4 years of business school. A+, all solid advice for "nailing" your target market, lol.


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## woodchux (Aug 11, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Double check them pics, boss. You won't find a rip cut on one of my finished trees.



We know that that those arent finished cuts ... but the potential customer looking at pics might not realize that.
I'm not ragging you on your work... just some constructive criticism about your website.
Also it might be considered deceptive to advertise as "fully insured' when you dont carry WC.

Great work on the spurless climbing by the way.


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## treemandan (Aug 12, 2008)

*Lets get back on track fellas*

Blakes, What the heck are you doing? Hey, you did ask for it so what can you say?

First, your captions are lame, quite lame. You do NOT say " so and an so safley lowers the branch" you say" Smacks it down in the zone like text book"

Anyway 12 years? Suddenly that maple is looking real bad. There are no CHUNKS in trim jobs. Whatever with that tree buddy for real, my God whatever.

this oak project kinda looks just as bad. There actaully is a whole lot of crotch sitting and low tie in points going on. I think anybody with the years you claim on the job you might have thought to put some spikes on just to at least take off that one limb. What was that you were lowering? Not very much at once it seemed.

Both jobs looked like the climber should have been tied in MUCH further up, correct me if I am wrong, it did look possible from the pics. One thing I liked was that it didn't look like anything got broke.
go ahead , get back to me.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 13, 2008)

treemandan said:


> Blakes, What the heck are you doing? Hey, you did ask for it so what can you say?
> 
> First, your captions are lame, quite lame. You do NOT say " so and an so safley lowers the branch" you say" Smacks it down in the zone like text book"
> 
> ...



12 years? No buddy, I said 6. Anyway, the main reason we didn't use spikes on that oak was because...ding ding ding! The pics were going on the website. That's it.


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## treemandan (Aug 13, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> 12 years? No buddy, I said 6. Anyway, the main reason we didn't use spikes on that oak was because...ding ding ding! The pics were going on the website. That's it.



Ding, ding? Whats that supper? So the theory was to do the job like a beeched purpoise as to take pictures of yourselfs busting your ass slasheing it up AND ( it has not been answeres as of yet) Where is the guys upper support line? 
Those pics were in NO WAY depicting any sort of " trim" or "prune". Full fledged massacre my friend. Not only does The Dan NOT abide but his principle mentor does not either, he was on you like white on rice.I am aleast giving more than his old wrinkled tushy is.
But you got it, With your experience The Dan Advises taking a break at looking at what you are doing from any logicall standpoint. Yup, That'll do her for you. Think for a minute like Ty Webb, the golf pro. " You have to be the ball.", is what he would say. 
You really should be looking at that little yellow thing ( under 200) and thinking about putting high shots in with the throwball. Just get to the top fast, easy and with energy to be ON TOP of what you are working, not nut hugging and ready to do a flip over. That one picture with the bigger saw up there? At that angle? On his nuts? No REALLY ON HIS NUTS? Boy you won't be doing that for another 6 years I bet ya.


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