# Yoder, ecoliner, shovel yarder, cheap yarder+loader



## northmanlogging (Feb 10, 2016)

Got a call today... How would you like to log 160 acres...

Well duh...

Only catch is I'll need a yarder and a loader.

anybody got a line on some cheap serviceable units?

Made some calls to the locale equipment folks, lookin at like 150-200k for a yoder, or ecoliner(converted excavator).


Or am I crazy and should run like a maniac?


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## bitzer (Feb 11, 2016)

Sounds like time to head to the bank with a biz plan. You may wanna tuck yer hair up under yer hat for that meeting. Them bank folks get twitchy. Unless you can claim a minority. You part indian Matt?


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## bnmc98 (Feb 11, 2016)

There's a guy in Missoula that was selling some line machines on CL recently. dunno if he still is.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

banks... ick...


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## Woos31 (Feb 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Sounds like time to head to the bank with a biz plan. You may wanna tuck yer hair up under yer hat for that meeting. Them bank folks get twitchy. Unless you can claim a minority. You part indian Matt?


That is a minority anymore I think............white male doing everything in his power to work where and how he wants to and earn his sheckles in the woods lol. Through on your corks, tin hat, and best go to town riggin pants and waltz in into that their banker man and get your mo-chine. Nothin ventured nothin gained, cept heart ache and stress and when you get your show set up and running you can show us pictures!


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## madhatte (Feb 11, 2016)

It occurs to me that these guys have a credit union. Maybe give them a call.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Feb 11, 2016)

Our local banks won't touch loans for forestry equipment.


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## Skeans (Feb 11, 2016)

Anymore a bank won't touch a forestry loan, have you looked at the size of the wood? What the price of moving the size of say at least a 330 or 400 sized shovel with winches? A lot of guys around here have a 568 with drums and they are 120k without fuel in them. Another has a back up 4300 with a 5600 undercarriage because of them drums.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

Still waiting on access to the sale, apparently there is a bridge what needs replacing. But I ass-u-me that its second growth nothing special timber, with the possibility of maybe a few pockets of nice cedar. Its in an area that hasn't be cut for some time so who knows. Don't like to make decisions on stuff I haven't slapped my eyes and boots on.

Made some calls to the local equipment pedelers, and looking at 100-200k for a yoder, mostly on the 300 sized machines, though a smaller cat 225 was available. They really just want too ****ing much for em, and really can't wrap my head around why they need to be so large? dumb maybe?

anyway I've talked to a few folks about getting forestry loans, I have remarkably good credit all things considered. and with something being backed up by a purchase they sound like they would be willing to pony up the cash. 

Did find a Skylead yarder fairly close fore either 24000, or 240000? add wasn't exactly clear, but then I would still need a loader... so I'm crossing my fangers and hoping that an old nearly worn out yoder, in the 200 class might come available. And a truck mount koller 501 in Oregon... 

Comes down to find something affordable or walk away from this, and continue with plan A of building her up slowly.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Anymore a bank won't touch a forestry loan, have you looked at the size of the wood? What the price of moving the size of say at least a 330 or 400 sized shovel with winches? A lot of guys around here have a 568 with drums and they are 120k without fuel in them. Another has a back up 4300 with a 5600 undercarriage because of them drums.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



luckily I don't think its real far from civilization, so moving in shouldn't be more then a few grand, at least to the dirt road part?


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

madhatte said:


> It occurs to me that these guys have a credit union. Maybe give them a call.


I happen to be a member...

and they have really good rates too!


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2016)

How about leasing or renting the equipment you need on a cost-share/profit-share basis? Sometimes on a small job you can actually come out better that way than buying the equipment and then having it just sitting....and probably still not paid for...at the end of the job.

Equipment isn't really the biggest problem. The real challenge is finding and keeping a good crew, especially if they know you're just starting out and don't have much of a track record.
Having a good cash reserve for payroll and insurance is a must. A good crew doesn't _cost_ you money, they _make_ money for you...if you can hang on to them. Your lender should already understand this.
Just don't lose sight of the fact that they're not doing you a favor by lending you money. Be absolutely certain that banks consider you an idiot because of what you're doing. Don't prove them right.
You're renting money from them and that, in turn, is how they make money. They'll smile and bring you coffee and be your best new friend but don't forget for a minute that borrowing money is a straight up business deal that they will profit from. You're doing them a favor by using their bank and I think you'll be surprised at how much rates can vary if you shop it around a little.
Go for it. You're still young enough that if things don't work out you can drag up and try again some other time. And what the hell, if you go broke you'll still learn something for the next time you try it. Besides, you'll be in good company. Most loggers I know...including me... have gone broke a time or two. It builds character. More or less.


Edit to add...it's just a personal preference but I always liked taking a line of credit versus a straight loan for operating costs. A straight loan, secured by equipment, is better when you're aquiring machinery.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

its that whole crew thing that has me really concerned...


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> its that whole crew thing that has me really concerned...



It _should_ concern you. Crews make or break an operation. That fact that you're concerned is a good sign. You've been in this business enough to know how many different ways things can go wrong. Multiply that by the number of crew you have.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

part of the reason I would rather go with a yoder, keep the crew small, 2-3 folks, guys I can trust or at least understand their fate for the moment is tied up in this adventure as well.

Part of the appeal of a yoder is that the guy in the cab can chase/and load logs, while the guy in the bushes can hook, and Hook? get the next road ready while yer loading logs...

Hopefully I can find someone that is a decent cutter, spend a day or two cutting, then a day or two yarding... rinse and repeat as necessary.

A proper yarder, you pretty much need at least one other person running a loader to keep the chute clear. A small yarder the chaser is also the engineer, no cab, just wireless controls or ground level levers. so a big yarder you need yet another dude in the cab, so then you might as well get another dude in the brush, and a proper hook tender... gets big fast.

And lets be honest here, a processor is not an option for now, all hand cutting... most folks would run away from.


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2016)

Can you get the production you need with a yoder? 160 acres isn't a huge job but they might want you to get done in a certain length of time.

You'll know more after you've walked the ground, figured out landings, looked at haul roads, lined up some trucking, and started to figure out the rough costs.

Keep us posted.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 11, 2016)

I'll know in a couple days, prospects as of now don't look good.


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2016)

If you need any help figuring layouts Madhatte and Slowp would give pretty good advice.
Plus, I hear a rumor that if you ask them nice they'll work for pizza and beer.


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## Skeans (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> luckily I don't think its real far from civilization, so moving in shouldn't be more then a few grand, at least to the dirt road part?


Talking to a guy with permits is nuts like 10k a move for their 568. Our 200 is a 1k to move per bridge. 

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## Skeans (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> part of the reason I would rather go with a yoder, keep the crew small, 2-3 folks, guys I can trust or at least understand their fate for the moment is tied up in this adventure as well.
> 
> Part of the appeal of a yoder is that the guy in the cab can chase/and load logs, while the guy in the bushes can hook, and Hook? get the next road ready while yer loading logs...
> 
> ...


Matt a crew is needed that's the biggest for a yarder crew you need minimum of four.

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## bitzer (Feb 12, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Talking to a guy with permits is nuts like 10k a move for their 568. Our 200 is a 1k to move per bridge.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


How in the hell can a guy make any money?


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## bitzer (Feb 12, 2016)

Matt- call the history channel and tell them you're starting a logging company. I'm sure they'll be right over to help. They can pick the crew and finance the equipment. Then we can all see how yer biz is going!


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## Skeans (Feb 12, 2016)

bitzer said:


> How in the hell can a guy make any money?


That 200 stays mainly at home on our place thank god.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 12, 2016)

bitzer said:


> How in the hell can a guy make any money?


Volume.

folks with the big toys can get like 20 loads a day, every day... I'm not quite at 1 load a day.


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## Skeans (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Volume.
> 
> folks with the big toys can get like 20 loads a day, every day... I'm not quite at 1 load a day.


I know most of the guys down here are pushing 35 to 40 a day on company ground.

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## bitzer (Feb 12, 2016)

35-40. Thats crazy but i believe it. I forget your volume per acre is a little different from mine.


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## 1270d (Feb 12, 2016)

4 guys pushing out 40 loads in a day? Wow that's incredible!
We run 5 man with a part time helper and can move 500 tons of hardwood on a good day. That still only about ten loads though.

North, maybe you could deal with another small time logger. Its your sale, but work something out to share the work?


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## madhatte (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I happen to be a member...
> 
> and they have really good rates too!


 
Excellent. I think that's their HQ here in Oly that I drive by all the time.


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## Woos31 (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Volume.
> 
> folks with the big toys can get like 20 loads a day, every day... I'm not quite at 1 load a day.


Good luck with all of er northman


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## northmanlogging (Feb 12, 2016)

1270d said:


> 4 guys pushing out 40 loads in a day? Wow that's incredible!
> We run 5 man with a part time helper and can move 500 tons of hardwood on a good day. That still only about ten loads though.
> 
> North, maybe you could deal with another small time logger. Its your sale, but work something out to share the work?



Considered that, only everyone that still has a yarder is booked until **** all knows when.


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## Skeans (Feb 12, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Considered that, only everyone that still has a yarder is booked until **** all knows when.


Another thing I'd consider is insurance especially with having to have a crew.

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## Joe46 (Feb 13, 2016)

Bekkavar out of Sequim is selling off some equp. NM. Pretty dandy little yarder, grapple cat, loader , ect


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## Skeans (Feb 13, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Another thing I'd consider is insurance especially with having to have a crew.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Matt having equipment and being around the stuff I'd look into a 200 class shovel and stay out of the high lead or yarder game because the big guys can hit a slow time then under bid you all day.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 13, 2016)

Looked at the timber cruize, mostly alder and maple, both are hard to make money on, probably enough fir, hem, and cedar to let a guy make a buck or two, but at the end of the day, not enough to justify 200k or more in equipment, and 20-30,000 in wages before the first check clears the mill.

So thanks for the words folks but I think the best thing to do here is dodge a bullet.


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## Deleted member 110241 (Feb 14, 2016)

The equipment is still there after the job is finished, they are more of an investment than cost.
Sometimes it is better to expand your business slowly, sometimes one needs to take the opportunitys that arise, too bad that you never know beforehand which is better.
I think it's best to follow your gut feeling


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## northmanlogging (Feb 14, 2016)

problem with this particular circumstance, is that I highly doubt that I'll have more yarder work in the near future, so once this job was completed I'd still be left with about 80-90k to pay of on a machine that is going to sit in the front yard and piss off the county.


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## madhatte (Feb 15, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I think the best thing to do here is dodge a bullet.



Bummer, that, but smart.


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## Gologit (Feb 15, 2016)

Yup.


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## Trx250r180 (Feb 15, 2016)

If you need Dave Bekkevars cel Northman let me know for the equipment .


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## northmanlogging (Feb 15, 2016)

contacted him on FB, he wants too much for that yarder to be worth it, 135,000 and I'd still need a loader...


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## northmanlogging (Feb 15, 2016)

granted its a wicked slick yarder, with a full up hill and down hill, eaglet cariage, and a mid support, just not enough timber in this project to cover the risk.


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## Skeans (Feb 15, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> contacted him on FB, he wants too much for that yarder to be worth it, 135,000 and I'd still need a loader...


Another idea to toss around would be a tonger if you're any good at redneck fly fishing.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

yeah... try $199,999 through pape for 12000 hour machine

The messed up thing is 2 years ago yarders where like flies at a picnic, now everyone thinks they have a gold mine in the scrap heap.


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## Skeans (Feb 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> yeah... try $199,999 through pape for 12000 hour machine
> 
> The messed up thing is 2 years ago yarders where like flies at a picnic, now everyone thinks they have a gold mine in the scrap heap.


What is happening is they are having to fly stuff out farther to keep working for the companies. 

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## KiwiBro (Feb 16, 2016)

With the strength of the US$, is it worth looking abroad?


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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> With the strength of the US$, is it worth looking abroad?


with the strength of us customs... not much is worth looking abroad, except drugs... but thats another forum.

There isn't much in the way of tariffs, but its a massive ass pain. lots of "homeland scrutiny" and rubber gloves.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

and then theres this http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/for/5441990789.html


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## Skeans (Feb 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> and then theres this http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/for/5441990789.html


Could you imagine what insurance would be with a setup like that?

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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

I'd rather not... might be cheaper then the payment on skagit in oregon though.


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## Skeans (Feb 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I'd rather not... might be cheaper then the payment on skagit in oregon though.


If they'd even insure it, I know we almost lost our insurance over an older two stage reach that used a pin instead of the clamp. What would hauling of even a small tower cost to move?

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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

Small like a koller 301 or 501? moving probably not much since they are either truck mount or small trailer mount (I.E. electric brakes even). Or even one of the Christy yarders usually mounted on a mack or Ferd l8000, most folks around here charge by the hour if they have to haul a trailer, I could con a friend into driving a truck fer me... hel they would almost do it just to get close to logging again... the koller trailer mounts I could move with Ye Ole Dumper Truck, and probably only spend a small fortune in gasahol. Granted a 301 is undersized for anything but the smallest jobs out here.

You start talking Skagit or Madil then you need a lowboy chase cars, permits, gets ugly fast. Unless you get somewhat smart and get a trailer mount Skagit.

moving one from Kanukia to the States is mostly a paperwork fiasco, declaring ownership, various fees, inspections, registrations, stamps, etc. The War Dept used to work for an outfit that had operations in BC and WA, moving from one side to the other took about 5k and a week of arguing, not including the actual haul, which has to be done with a truck licensed both in BC and WA.


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## Skeans (Feb 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Small like a koller 301 or 501? moving probably not much since they are either truck mount or small trailer mount (I.E. electric brakes even). Or even one of the Christy yarders usually mounted on a mack or Ferd l8000, most folks around here charge by the hour if they have to haul a trailer, I could con a friend into driving a truck fer me... hel they would almost do it just to get close to logging again... the koller trailer mounts I could move with Ye Ole Dumper Truck, and probably only spend a small fortune in gasahol. Granted a 301 is undersized for anything but the smallest jobs out here.
> 
> You start talking Skagit or Madil then you need a lowboy chase cars, permits, gets ugly fast. Unless you get somewhat smart and get a trailer mount Skagit.
> 
> moving one from Kanukia to the States is mostly a paperwork fiasco, declaring ownership, various fees, inspections, registrations, stamps, etc. The War Dept used to work for an outfit that had operations in BC and WA, moving from one side to the other took about 5k and a week of arguing, not including the actual haul, which has to be done with a truck licensed both in BC and WA.


Going to say some friends of ours have a 330 cat shovel mid 90's build from Vernonia to enterprise Oregon cost 10k.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2016)

330 is a big machine, chase cars, permits etc


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## Skeans (Feb 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 330 is a big machine, chase cars, permits etc


It's one of the B's so just a jeep or a tail, they did all the flagging and had to buy the permits for the haul.

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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 330 is a big machine, chase cars, permits etc


https://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/hvo/5462027554.html
Not a bad deal

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## northmanlogging (Mar 7, 2016)

Saw that, and a christy in oregon for like 64k...


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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Saw that, and a christy in oregon for like 64k...


To me that little truck mount would be more handy and they will lift a ton too.

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## northmanlogging (Mar 7, 2016)

the truck mounts are wicked cool, cause you can just pack up and go, but having a excavator would be more versatile for where I'm at for now, can't really shovel log or pop stumps with a truck mount loader.


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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> the truck mounts are wicked cool, cause you can just pack up and go, but having a excavator would be more versatile for where I'm at for now, can't really shovel log or pop stumps with a truck mount loader.


I understand that completely but it's a great start into a track machine as we did, especially using a pull through delimber, I will say we have broke a 210 boom before but we over use our equipment at times.

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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> the truck mounts are wicked cool, cause you can just pack up and go, but having a excavator would be more versatile for where I'm at for now, can't really shovel log or pop stumps with a truck mount loader.


I remember our old 210 as a kid with a screaming Jimmy, foot swing and 5 stick lever set up my grandfather loading 125 ft poles with a live heel on it.

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## northmanlogging (Mar 7, 2016)

Me uncle would "borrow" a neighbors from time to time, some massive prentice thing on a carrier platform, thing could probably move a d8 without grunting too hard.


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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Me uncle would "borrow" a neighbors from time to time, some massive prentice thing on a carrier platform, thing could probably move a d8 without grunting too hard.


Probably a 600 series, they make a 330 look weak.

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## northmanlogging (Mar 7, 2016)

think most of that stuff went to the scrap yard, the mountain logger is still parked out there, has a friend for parts now, and some kind of shovel crammed into too low of a shed, me uncles ole Cat is stuck up in the hills on private ground... Very steep log roads to go get it, and I really don't think my poor truck is up to pulling that hill, not without a locked rear and probably a pull truck, at least not with 14k of cat and 5k of trailer behind it...

Most of the loggers back there have either went to Boeing, died or retired, Lost one last week to something, What used to be shops full of yarders loaders and Cats have subarus and priuses parked in em or a few random chainsaw carvings and the usual painted fake misery whip... 

Drove out through Concrete last Friday, and saw lots of yarders parked, 4 in one yard... there's logging going on just not like it used to be.


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## Skeans (Mar 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> think most of that stuff went to the scrap yard, the mountain logger is still parked out there, has a friend for parts now, and some kind of shovel crammed into too low of a shed, me uncles ole Cat is stuck up in the hills on private ground... Very steep log roads to go get it, and I really don't think my poor truck is up to pulling that hill, not without a locked rear and probably a pull truck, at least not with 14k of cat and 5k of trailer behind it...
> 
> Most of the loggers back there have either went to Boeing, died or retired, Lost one last week to something, What used to be shops full of yarders loaders and Cats have subarus and priuses parked in em or a few random chainsaw carvings and the usual painted fake misery whip...
> 
> Drove out through Concrete last Friday, and saw lots of yarders parked, 4 in one yard... there's logging going on just not like it used to be.


I know a lot of us that are small companies and old companies are now doing CTL, not enough money to clear cut.

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## 1270d (Mar 30, 2016)

Couple machines here North, might go cheap.


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