# Backbarring the undercut



## HuskStihl (Jun 29, 2013)

OK, I've received very different advice about this from people who all know their #### forwards and backwards.

If I am on the right side of a tree, and I make a gunning cut with the saw flipped over, is it ok to make my undercut from the same side with the top of the bar (completing the Humboldt)? This is a half-wrap vs full-wrap thread


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 29, 2013)

husk, I have done it but it's tricky. you not in a hurry so I suggest no. the saw will act differently pushing chain than pulling. if ya not used to backbaring I don't think ya should try that yet.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 29, 2013)

Depends on the tree, big ones I'll get away with using the bottom/normal side, little ones its easier to use the back side... also depends on your comfort level, and the length of bar, dirt can get in the way. Sometimes it seems easier to line up cuts with back side, but once you get the dog in and rotate deal down... its rock em sock em.


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## bustedup (Jun 29, 2013)

Master the pulling chain before ya start facing with the pushing imo


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## mdavlee (Jun 29, 2013)

I try not to back bar unless it's the only option. I'm lazy and like the saw to do the pulling instead of me having to push the saw into the undercut. Little tiny trees less than 10" then back barring isn't too bad.


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## bustedup (Jun 29, 2013)

Jon let the saw do the work use the dogs and buy a full wrap bro.........you'll get to back barring in time but for the mo stick to the pulling chain (bucking excepted here btw)


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## Cfaller (Jun 29, 2013)

Buying a 3/4 warp will be the best $100 you spend on your saw.:msp_biggrin: I'll back bar smaller trees, but like everyone else, big ones no way. If you will be backbarring a lot don't run an aggressive chain or it will feel like you went to the gym all day.:msp_angry:


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## woodchuck357 (Jun 30, 2013)

Cut a good sized tree, at least 2 foot DBH, leaving a chest high stump and practice notching all up and down it with the top of the bar. Plan your notches and you might come up with a nice start on a carving as well as learning to handle your saw!


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## 056 kid (Jun 30, 2013)

Root flair often makes the diagonal cut in a Humboldt easier to do back bar. The only streniouse part is starting a kerf before the doggies can bite. After that just keep footing and take a lean. Things even out if your tips burried though, after your satisfied with your aim, just finish with the bottom of the bar. Big dogs make more leverage which is good, keeping the two top two spikes sharp is important. I hit the outside top with the ax recently, that caused big grip issues.

Get a wrap handle and you won't even need to worry. About back barring, you can under buck though haha.


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## roberte (Jun 30, 2013)

Wrap handle, yes.

Backbar, next to or last option. Wait till you throw a chain in the middle of a big backbar, then get back to us.
I know there is a couple YouTube visa showing backbar, treeslingr being in a couple of em, but his experience level is off the charts.
Why fight it let the saw do the work.


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## madhatte (Jun 30, 2013)

All of the above advice is rock-solid. I would like to add that if you are cleaning out the face of just a nibble or two, and you're looking down the bar through the face itself, back-barring is often useful because it pushes the chips away from you. However, that only counts once you already have the face mostly complete. Otherwise, it's most often more work to pull a face with the back of the bar.


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## 056 kid (Jun 30, 2013)

Rhink


madhatte said:


> All of the above advice is rock-solid. I would like to add that if you are cleaning out the face of just a nibble or two, and you're looking down the bar through the face itself, back-barring is often useful because it pushes the chips away from you. However, that only counts once you already have the face mostly complete. Otherwise, it's most often more work to pull a face with the back of the bar.



It's difficult to do that with east haedwood. It's not impossible, but its q good way to throw a chain and wear stuff out faster. Stuff like hickory, ash, and locust along with others you just gave to duck behind your powerhead and hat or Line things up and cut by feel. Hickory chips on a hot day can be slightly unpleasent to the epidermis. Better than tan oak dust though!


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2013)

ever notice when ya start a cut in hickory, ya eyes get pelted with bark?


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## roberte (Jun 30, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> ever notice when ya start a cut in hickory, ya eyes get pelted with bark?



Standard issue out here.


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## bitzer (Jun 30, 2013)

Guess I'll have to be the turd in the punch bowl....

From a production standpoint in hardwood timber back barring is a necessity. Usually there is too much stump flair to have the powerhead down depending on which side of the tree you are on. If I'm cutting from the left side I put all of my face cuts in back bar (Humboldt or Saginaw) and then dog in for the back cut. I never have to flip the saw head over, which does mess with time and rhythm. Cutting from the right side its the opposite. Like the Kid said once you get past the ##### part of getting the diagonal started on a Humboldt its just dogging in and working it. Also if you throw a chain back barring it generally just flops off the bar because you are cutting wood away from you. The last thing it does is dig into the wood and then just lays there. When cutting towards you the thrown chain flies at you. 

Its also generally faster to throw a Saginaw face in when making 8-12" stumps that have a lot of flair. Hard maple and red oak being two species that come to mind that can be a ##### to put a Humboldt into unless you really need it. Often you are cutting more wood with a Humboldt in those situations and its harder wood with screwy grain being that close to the roots. 

In Jon's case where stump height is not a factor, you can still run that half wrap like a full wrap when putting the face cuts in from the left side. Just keep your hand on top of the handle bar and make your stump higher to give yourself the room.

Its tough to get used to, but you can easily keep an eye on the top when back barring the back cut as well. It just takes some practice. I do it all the time when swinging trees. 

The only way to get away from back barring hardwood timber is either to bore it or circle the tree both eating up time and money.

Jon- to me its something worth while to practice. Just watch your tip for kick out and keep your hands on the saw at all times. A guy should know how to run his saw backwards and forwards. Situations will arise... Believe me.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 30, 2013)

yea, bitz is right on everything he said. I do all those things and more.... but husk ya not a production logger, you need not be in any hurry. you not making money on time here, so take your time and do what ya comfortable with. above all keep safe and don't try anything your not ready for.


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## bitzer (Jun 30, 2013)

Jon- here ya go. Its not rocket science. Just know where your tip is. Back- barred both face cuts on this ash from last winter. It still pisses me off that I took my hand off the saw to flip the chip out. I always just knick it with the top of the bar and it kicks it out. Cell phone only takes 1 min videos. If I only it had about 5 more seconds...

[video=youtube;Q3lDcz9lLxU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3lDcz9lLxU[/video]


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## hammerlogging (Jun 30, 2013)

yup backbar hardwood timber no-brainer do what you got to do be in control of the saw if you can't tak eit ease off and do what you're comfortable with, knowing that will limit your options. I'll sometimes bore in my undercut, rise to match the horizontal, then cut downward, usually just dog from the bottom up, either works, but your stumps will end up way too high on that other side if you don't backbar the undercut, at least some of the time. I'll backbar a backcut too, whatever. do what works.


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## HuskStihl (Jun 30, 2013)

Y'all must not be very experienced with falling. Everybody knows the proper time for back barring is when there are poison ivy vines on the tree. I will back bar the whole thing to avoid flingin' that #### all over me. You are all correct about my situation. I fall in a year what most of you do in a day. My time is not free, but I can take 15 minutes to fall a one minute tree no problem. I just have this thing about doing stuff right, even if it doesn't really matter. I am better at back barring the undercut. Seems to just fit my eyes better. Of course this is coming from a guy who did not know you shouldn't face from under the lean until two days ago:msp_biggrin:


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## dooby (Jul 1, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Guess I'll have to be the turd in the punch bowl....
> 
> From a production standpoint in hardwood timber back barring is a necessity. Usually there is too much stump flair to have the powerhead down depending on which side of the tree you are on. If I'm cutting from the left side I put all of my face cuts in back bar (Humboldt or Saginaw) and then dog in for the back cut. I never have to flip the saw head over, which does mess with time and rhythm. Cutting from the right side its the opposite. Like the Kid said once you get past the ##### part of getting the diagonal started on a Humboldt its just dogging in and working it. Also if you throw a chain back barring it generally just flops off the bar because you are cutting wood away from you. The last thing it does is dig into the wood and then just lays there. When cutting towards you the thrown chain flies at you.
> 
> ...



I agree w/ most all of this whole thread and mostly this one. Way to be descriptive, bitzer. It does have a lot to do w/ rhythm. I saw very similar to bitz' so I need not say more.opcorn:


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## HuskStihl (Jul 1, 2013)

dooby said:


> I saw very similar to bitz' so I need not say more.opcorn:



I _have_ a saw very similar to Bitz', but that's where the similarities end


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## twochains (Jul 2, 2013)

Here's one from day break. Still waiting on the other one. High stump due to fence, sweet gum.

FILE0002 - YouTube


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## HuskStihl (Jul 2, 2013)

Whoa there TC! Ya wanna post on my thread ya gotta learn to fall like me! Your whole ####ing video was a minute. I take 15 minutes minimum to overcome gravity. Matching cuts?!? What kind of bull#### is that?! There are no matching cuts allowed on my threads! Seriously, u'r first video a ways back I was thinking I hang with this skinny assed dude no problem. Man was I wrong, you are moving *through* the timber these days. Good on ya mate!
With all earned respect, HS


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## roberte (Jul 2, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Whoa there TC! Ya wanna post on my thread ya gotta learn to fall like me! Your whole ####ing video was a minute. I take 15 minutes minimum to overcome gravity. Matching cuts?!? What kind of bull#### is that?! There are no matching cuts allowed on my threads! Seriously, u'r first video a ways back I was thinking I hang with this skinny assed dude no problem. Man was I wrong, you are moving *through* the timber these days. Good on ya mate!
> With all earned respect, HS



Easy there tiger, f:censored:


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## twochains (Jul 5, 2013)

back barring some undercuts opcorn:

pine vid - YouTube


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## HuskStihl (Jul 5, 2013)

twochains said:


> back barring some undercuts opcorn:
> 
> pine vid - YouTube



I would have thought about each tree for 10-15 minutes, come up with what may or not have been a good plan, and then ####ed up the execution anyway. That looked like pro production falling to me


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## roberte (Jul 5, 2013)

:coffee::cowboy::censored:


HuskStihl said:


> I would have thought about each tree for 10-15 minutes, come up with what may or not have been a good plan, and then ####ed up the execution anyway. That looked like pro production falling to me



:coffee::cowboy::kilt::censored:


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## twochains (Jul 5, 2013)

roberte said:


> :coffee::cowboy::censored:
> 
> :coffee::cowboy::kilt::censored:



giggles...:hmm3grin2orange:


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## jrcat (Jul 6, 2013)

:msp_confused::yoyo:


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

need to open up the exhaust on that 460 ,let it breathe some :msp_wink:


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## HuskStihl (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> need to open up the exhaust on that 460 ,let it breathe some :msp_wink:



You're about six months late to the "TC's tired 460" discussion. We've already decided it needs a new top end. He's been offered free porting by Bitz. But that man is dead set on hauling around 1/6th of his body weight in the form of an ms660


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> You're about six months late to the "TC's tired 460" discussion. We've already decided it needs a new top end. He's been offered free porting by Bitz. But that man is dead set on hauling around 1/6th of his body weight in the form of an ms660



my 460 sounded like that when it was bone stock ,i opened up the stock outlet to about 14mm ,and added a dual port front cover ,has a nice deep throaty sound now ,(has some cylinder and piston mods too )


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## twochains (Jul 6, 2013)

Yeh...needs work for sure. I am now rotating (3) 046 and they are pretty equal. The vids I made this morning are from the 3rd saw but I will bet it sounds just as tired.


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

do you have 150 psi comp or better ? i think mine has around 175 by taking the base gasket out and running sealer instead of a gasket ,my squish is .023 without a gasket ,doing that and the dual port adds about 1/2 a horse i think ,doesn't sound like a lot ,but its noticable in tourque ,helps pull the longer bars better


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> You're about six months late to the "TC's tired 460" discussion. We've already decided it needs a new top end. He's been offered free porting by Bitz. But that man is dead set on hauling around 1/6th of his body weight in the form of an ms660



It's better to have a 660 and haul it around, than to not have one and wish you could. So what, its heavy , its supposed to be. Like the 394 or 395 isn't.
50 lb barbell curls and shoulder press will cu:hmm3grin2orange:re all that


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## HuskStihl (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> do you have 150 psi comp or better ? i think mine has around 175 by taking the base gasket out and running sealer instead of a gasket ,my squish is .023 without a gasket ,doing that and the dual port adds about 1/2 a horse i think ,doesn't sound like a lot ,but its noticable in tourque ,helps pull the longer bars better



I got the exact same results from my 385. If you have enough squish, I really can't unlerstand leaving that gasket in. 25 "free" psi in my case. Very noticeable torque increase


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

View attachment 303409




Trying to have your back tc.


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## jrcat (Jul 6, 2013)

Keep it down in here or Randy is gonna come and bump some knots lol


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

this is how my 460 sounds with the dual port ,its on the sawmill so it looks like the chain is dull ,but its not ,when milling the way your cutting it just is slow ,but it gives you a nicer finish with the ripping chain [video=youtube;K--HTUhYpFk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K--HTUhYpFk[/video]


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## HuskStihl (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> It's better to have a 660 and haul it around, than to not have one and wish you could. So what, its heavy , its supposed to be. Like the 394 or 395 isn't.
> 50 lb barbell curls and shoulder press will cu:hmm3grin2orange:re all that



660's and 394/395's are awesome. They're the kind of saw I can run because I'm not doing the work and moving at the pace TC runs. Also, a 660 is not going to be any faster in the stuff TC has been cutting than a good 460


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Keep it down in here or Randy is gonna come and bump some knots lol



I keep telling ya, not afraid , heck we need his .02 on this. :angry2:


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> 660's and 394/395's are awesome. They're the kind of saw I can run because I'm not doing the work and moving at the pace TC runs. Also, a 660 is not going to be any faster in the stuff TC has been cutting than a good 460



All good points, IMHO, tc is at point of need vs want, for a $100+- more and the boss is picking up the tab.....


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> this is how my 460 sounds with the dual port ,its on the sawmill so it looks like the chain is dull ,but its not ,when milling the way your cutting it just is slow ,but it gives you a nicer finish with the ripping chain [video=youtube;K--HTUhYpFk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K--HTUhYpFk[/video]




Saw sounds good, nice looking lumber too.


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## jrcat (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> I keep telling ya, not afraid , heck we need his .02 on this. :angry2:



But he is just going to say that we all need to run MACs lol


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## roberte (Jul 6, 2013)

jrcat said:


> But he is just going to say that we all need to run MACs lol



Ok, mccullochs are good saws, no arguement from me.


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> Saw sounds good, nice looking lumber too.



that has one of simonizers top ends on it ,he is north of here ,cambell river bc ,he is a member of this forum


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## HuskStihl (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> All good points, IMHO, tc is at point of need vs want, for a $100+- more and the boss is picking up the tab.....



Absolutely. His 69th amendment rights allow him to run an 880 if he chooses. He just goes hard for 10 hrs a day in 100 degree weather and is about half the size of Cat and Northman, and extra weight is only gonna slow him down and wear him out. He's a big boy, works harder than anyone I know and will figure out what's best for himself without our help. If I had his job I'd run a ported 562xp. Carrying heavy stuff in hot weather makes me tired


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## bustedup (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Absolutely. His 69th amendment rights allow him to run an 880 if he chooses. He just goes hard for 10 hrs a day in 100 degree weather and is about half the size of Cat and Northman, and extra weight is only gonna slow him down and wear him out. He's a big boy, works harder than anyone I know and will figure out what's best for himself without our help. If I had his job I'd run a ported 562xp. Carrying heavy stuff in hot weather makes me tired



You fixated with this 562 lol.......Husk it depends on ya quota's etc etc and how ya get paid as to how much board feet ya gotta put on the floor in a day.......and also what ya cutting too


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> do you have 150 psi comp or better ? i think mine has around 175 by taking the base gasket out and running sealer instead of a gasket ,my squish is .023 without a gasket ,doing that and the dual port adds about 1/2 a horse i think ,doesn't sound like a lot ,but its noticable in tourque ,helps pull the longer bars better



i'd love to try that, not sure I want the hassle of taking off the jug 2-3 times. would not all of um be the same? comp. and timeing is what I suspect is lacking in all the newer saws.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> It's better to have a 660 and haul it around, than to not have one and wish you could. So what, its heavy , its supposed to be. Like the 394 or 395 isn't.
> 50 lb barbell curls and shoulder press will cu:hmm3grin2orange:re all that



almost gotta have both. 660 for the big oak, 460 for every thing else. I don't want to pack around that extra weight unless I need it.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

bustedup said:


> You fixated with this 562 lol.......Husk it depends on ya quota's etc etc and how ya get paid as to how much board feet ya gotta put on the floor in a day.......and also what ya cutting too



honestly, I don't know how he does it. 10 loads be about my best and I ain't done that in a while.
course, I am skidding too.


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i'd love to try that, not sure I want the hassle of taking off the jug 2-3 times. would not all of um be the same? comp. and timeing is what I suspect is lacking in all the newer saws.



take a roll of solder ,stick it in the spark plug hole till it hits the back of the cylinder ,if you take the muffler cover off ,can see in there if roll piston down ,pull the engine over with the pull cord ,the piston will come up and smash the solder ,measure the smashed solder with micrometer if its .050 and gaskets say .025 for example ,you will have a 0.25 squish ,i like .020-.025 to be safe ,some guys run as tight as .015-.018


the best way to check is pull the jug ,take the rings off the piston ,put solder in 4 spots of the piston with some grease to hold in place ,put jug on ,2 bolts will hold it ,but the solder down the plug hole will get you there


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## HuskStihl (Jul 6, 2013)

bustedup said:


> You fixated with this 562 lol.......Husk it depends on ya quota's etc etc and how ya get paid as to how much board feet ya gotta put on the floor in a day.......and also what ya cutting too



Just based on what's usually going on in his vids. 562's are crazy small and light


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## bustedup (Jul 6, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Just based on what's usually going on in his vids. 562's are crazy small and light



Aye ok lol


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> take a roll of solder ,stick it in the spark plug hole till it hits the back of the cylinder ,if you take the muffler cover off ,can see in there if roll piston down ,pull the engine over with the pull cord ,the piston will come up and smash the solder ,measure the smashed solder with micrometer if its .050 and gaskets say .025 for example ,you will have a 0.25 squish ,i like .020-.025 to be safe ,some guys run as tight as .015-.018



thanks, no one ever told me to do it that way. do you alter ignition timing or no?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

hot there Jon? bout 97 in the shade here and of course humid.


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## bustedup (Jul 6, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> honestly, I don't know how he does it. 10 loads be about my best and I ain't done that in a while.
> course, I am skidding too.



Oh my days of big production are gone lol ........but I 100% agree with ya that you pack what ya need and I'm afraid Husk a 562 wouldn't be the one I'd pack lol


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

bustedup said:


> Oh my days of big production are gone lol ........but I 100% agree with ya that you pack what ya need and I'm afraid Husk a 562 wouldn't be the one I'd pack lol



if a saw that size will do it, i'll jus use the cutter. :msp_razz:


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> thanks, no one ever told me to do it that way. do you alter ignition timing or no?



mastermind does when he does my saws ,he grinds 1/3 off the key then turns the flywheel on the key ,and holds it when tightens the bolt ,you need to run premium gas then ,he has me running bel ray h1r dirt bike oil 32 to 1


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> mastermind does when he does my saws ,he grinds 1/3 off the key then turns the flywheel on the key ,and holds it when tightens the bolt ,you need to run premium gas then ,he has me running bel ray h1r dirt bike oil 32 to 1



really? that's a hassle. I been runnin stihl orange bottle at 40-1 since I started. that much diff. in the oil?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

hello clint


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## Trx250r180 (Jul 6, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> really? that's a hassle. I been runnin stihl orange bottle at 40-1 since I started. that much diff. in the oil?




with 200-220 psi it helps the main bearings last longer ,it doen't build carbon on the piston like the stihl mix does ,this piston has about 20 tanks of fuel ran through it View attachment 303425



have a good weekend , i'm out


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 6, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> with 200-220 psi it helps the main bearings last longer ,it doen't build carbon on the piston like the stihl mix does ,this piston has about 20 tanks of fuel ran through it View attachment 303425
> 
> 
> 
> have a good weekend , i'm out



well, it is clean. have a good one man.


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## jrcat (Jul 6, 2013)

roberte said:


> Ok, mccullochs are good saws, no arguement from me.



No argument from me either. Someday I will get one of those PM850's just to have. Theres a few on flea bay all the time. Just getting parts for em around here kinda sucks.


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## bitzer (Jul 7, 2013)

HuskStihl said:


> Also, a 660 is not going to be any faster in the stuff TC has been cutting than a good 460



Totally disagree with you there. You will absolutely put more wood on the ground in a day with a 660 vs a 460. 

That extra weight of a larger saw you get used too. When I'm out cutting the saw doesn't feel like much until the last hour of the day or so. At that point it doesn't matter what saw you are running.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 7, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Totally disagree with you there. You will absolutely put more wood on the ground in a day with a 660 vs a 460.
> 
> That extra weight of a larger saw you get used too. When I'm out cutting the saw doesn't feel like much until the last hour of the day or so. At that point it doesn't matter what saw you are running.



I retract my previous statement:msp_confused:
As a saw guy, I would expect a good 76cc saw with a 7pin and a good chain to get through what appears to be 20" pine just as fast as a good 92cc saw with the same setup. As I have never logged a day in my life I will leave best falling saw to people who actually fall. I still think a Bitzerized 460 is his best bet, #### there I go again!:jester:


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## roberte (Jul 12, 2013)

So do you have a 394 backbar vid coming ? :msp_thumbsup:


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## dooby (Jul 13, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Totally disagree with you there. You will absolutely put more wood on the ground in a day with a 660 vs a 460.
> 
> That extra weight of a larger saw you get used too. When I'm out cutting the saw doesn't feel like much until the last hour of the day or so. At that point it doesn't matter what saw you are running.



I Concur. With all of it.-Howdy bitz! Find a forwarder op. yet? that way you can run yer big block saw!!! I just sold a Ms441. To big to thin w/ and to small to cut w/. i like a 5 c.i. plus saw myself. The ms 460 as far as Stihl goes is were i start w/ a fallin' saw. thin w/ 362's . Power waitin' is better than pow:chainsawguy:er expectin'


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