# Red Oak Problem



## dhuffnmu (Apr 5, 2008)

I was called out to look at this large Red Oak last night that the homeowner thought needed to be removed. They do not want to remove it if at all possible which I do not blame them. But some other tree guy said he THINKS it has oak wilt and should be removed. The tree is obviously leafless right now. There is no excess dead in the tree there are a few large dead limbs and just the normal smaller stuff here and there. I recommended to not take action right away until you can 100% identify oak wilt or not. They agreed and asked me to look further into it for them. So I figured I would post some pictures here and see what you guys think it may be hard to tell anything from them but it will atleast let you get a look at the tree in question. Would it be possible for a lab to diagnos it right now with old leafs from the tree that were on the ground or a twig or bark sample???

Thank you.


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## dhuffnmu (Apr 5, 2008)

Another Picture of the tree.


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## dhuffnmu (Apr 5, 2008)

Sorry finally realized you could upload more than one photo per post.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 5, 2008)

The problem is not Oak Wilt, the problem is root damage.

The trunk flare is higher than the surrounding grade, and the new planter is a dead giveaway. The tree is not safe if the pictures are representative of the root damage.

People think they can save the roots within a couple feet of the tree and all the rest can be cut off. 

Oak Wilt symptoms happen fast. By the time you notice it, the tree is dead, within a week or two, the tree is completely shut down. You'll see leaves all over the ground like it's fall.
Construction damage will show up at the top and tips of the tree and limbs, and more slowly work back toward the ground.


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## dhuffnmu (Apr 5, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. That is exactly what I told the homeowners on this tree. I saved the tree from removal and we are going to do a trimming on it and get some Cambistat in the tree. Then we are going to look at some possible airspade work. We will see how it goes here.


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## D Mc (Apr 5, 2008)

dhuff, I think you need to slow down a bit here and take the time to understand the ramifications of compromised buttress roots. This needs to be the first area of investigation because if significant structural roots were damaged, which all your pictures seem to indicate, you need to know this prior to climbing or any other work. This is important for the safety of all involved. After this step is analyzed your course of action will become more clear. 

D Mc


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## Dadatwins (Apr 5, 2008)

D Mc said:


> dhuff, I think you need to slow down a bit here and take the time to understand the ramifications of compromised buttress roots. This needs to be the first area of investigation because if significant structural roots were damaged, which all your pictures seem to indicate, you need to know this prior to climbing or any other work. This is important for the safety of all involved. After this step is analyzed your course of action will become more clear.
> 
> D Mc


Strongly agree, a root and butress inspection should be done prior to any work being done on that tree. Move the gravel and stone away from the base and see if there are any buttress roots left holding that tree up. If the sidewalk is also new, the roots were probably cut on that side and you may have a very serious problem with stability.


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## deercatcher (Apr 5, 2008)

Please bear in mind a am a southern specialist commenting on a few photos of a northern tree! But I often make some fairly good intuitive judgements, so here goes. First of all, determine if the grade has been changed. Ask older neighbors. Homeowners will hide their own bad behavior. If the bed has been in place over a year, the changes and impact on the tree is longterm. The tree will be adjusting to the change, and if you modify it again, you are forcing it to adjust again. Next, consider the target if the tree windthrows. What is the direction of the strongest winds in the area? What is the apparent target? Talk to your cooperative extention agents to find out protocols and amount of oak wilt activity in your area. The fungal fruiting bodies on the dead close up included Hypoxilon simplex, which is a colonizer of sapwood of weak trees. Disinfect your saws as you prune with some spray lysol. I think you will be much better able to evaluate the tree by measuring the strength of the foliation effort. Remember that the tree is investing stored energy in a factory of leaves, expecting a return. Avoid removing it. Deadwood removal, reduces the amount of chemical producing pathogens engaging the margin of the living tree, and relieves the tree of some energy needs resisting the invasion. Avoid fertilizing with high nitrogen. You don't need to force tissue growth, you need to stabilize the tree. the Cambistat is a good way to go, but you need , the consensis seems to be, to do some compaction, nutrition remediation.


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## Urban Forester (Apr 5, 2008)

dhuffnmu said:


> ...get some Cambistat in the tree. QUOTE]
> 
> I would be very wary of using a growth regulator, they rely on good translocation for to be effective. With a comprimized root system movement could be uneven and result in spotty (uneven) control.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 6, 2008)

deercatcher said:


> Deadwood removal, reduces the amount of chemical producing pathogens engaging the margin of the living tree, and relieves the tree of some energy needs resisting the invasion.



Let me think about that... 
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Uh...
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Um...
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Nope, I don't agree. I've heard that theory before, but my intellectual intuition and anecdotal observation tells me it is false.

Not that a good dead wooding would hurt from a safety or cosmetic point of view.

Let me explain. Once a limb is dead, the tree loses communication with all parts of the limb. It doesn't know if you remove 1/4, 1/2, or all the dead wood.

Now consider the physical construction of wood. It is very much like a bundle of straws, Pathogens move quickly up the vascular tubes, but rather slowly across them.
An in tact limb has few open tubes.

While a limb is dying, the tree is setting up physical and mechanical barriers at and near the collar. Once those are set up, that's about it, other than adding new wood where it can, the defense process is done.

This defense is known as CODIT, and it is a process that takes time. 

Now you come along and open up the vascular tubes as close to the barriers as you can, allowing those pathogens fast, close, easy access to the tree's barriers that are just being formed.

The success or failure of the barriers is determined first by the health of the tree and the size of the cut, and to a lesser extent by factors like how much time the tree has to set up compartments before the vascular system is opened up to pathogens.


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## dhuffnmu (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for the replys guys. Keep them coming. That is why I posted it on here to get all the different points of view to do what is the best for the tree. Thank you.


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## treeseer (Apr 9, 2008)

Kneejerk Bombas said:


> The success or failure of the barriers is determined first by the health of the tree and the size of the cut, and to a lesser extent by factors like how much time the tree has to set up compartments before the vascular system is opened up to pathogens.


Most urban trees are challenged enough that we cannot take for granted good codit barriers behind a shedding limb. decay does emit enzymes, which can pierce many barriers. Deadwood out is a good general rule, but there are several exceptions and Mr. Bombas describes some of the reasons behind them.


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