# Fully Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil Vs Standard?



## Michael Kent (Apr 13, 2019)

Just curious as to how others feel about using fully synthetic 2 cycle oil in their chainsaws? Would this not be recommended for a saw breakin period if there is one, if used? Amsoil makes some good synthetic oils I’ve been told.

Thanks for any opinions.

Mike


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## full chizel (Apr 13, 2019)

Not really worried about anyone else’s opinion but I use synthetic and never had a problem with a break in. I use the FVP from Menard’s in 40:1 bottles.


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## Michael Kent (Apr 13, 2019)

full chizel said:


> Not really worried about anyone else’s opinion but I use synthetic and never had a problem with a break in. I use the FVP from Menard’s in 40:1 bottles.



Yes, opinions can be like assholes, “everyone has one.” But there are many people on this forum with a lot more experience than I, therefore I welcome and value what others have to say. Thanks for your opinion.
Have a nice day

Mike


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## full chizel (Apr 13, 2019)

I’m just saying there is an oil thread on here close to 1000 pages with 1 million opinions and they still don’t know what oil is best. Use a good oil at 40:1 and you’ll have no problems


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## Michael Kent (Apr 13, 2019)

full chizel said:


> I’m just saying there is an oil thread on here close to 1000 pages with 1 million opinions and they still don’t know what oil is best. Use a good oil at 40:1 and you’ll have no problems



Thanks for your reply, I’m new to this site so wasn’t aware. But I can understand your statement. Just thought I would ask.
Your input is valued, thanks. 

Mike


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## Colt Marlington (Apr 13, 2019)

For the 2 hours a year. Buy canned gas by the quart that is already premixed with oil.
It can stay fresh up to 2 years.


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## JoshNY (Apr 13, 2019)

I run Amsoil Saber in all my saws and trimmers and love it. Spark plugs and spark arrestor screens stay clean forever just about.
It has fuel stabilizer already in the oil also.
I mix at 40:1 or 50:1

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


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## JoshNY (Apr 13, 2019)

I have run the Stihl HP synthetic also and it seemed like good oil.
The Amsoil is actually cheaper if you are a dealer or preferred customer though, and I feel it is a better oil.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


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## full chizel (Apr 13, 2019)

Michael Kent said:


> Thanks for your reply, I’m new to this site so wasn’t aware. But I can understand your statement. Just thought I would ask.
> Your input is valued, thanks.
> 
> Mike


There is no problem asking but the more opinion you and get the more confused you’ll be


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## computeruser (Apr 13, 2019)

Only use synthetic. Never had an issue whether the saw was new, old, or rebuilt. Used to use Mobil MX2T before it went away. Now I run Klotz R50 for the aroma more than anything else.


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## Huskybill (Apr 13, 2019)

When my Husqvarna saws were new I used the husky oil. Mixed under 40:1 more like 38:1. They lasted me over two decades. I was told only to use husky oil in my new saws because they have tighter tolerances. I believe in using the manufacturers two stroke oil. I do run them oil rich. The little saws will foul but not that often. The bigger saws never fouled plugs running slightly oil rich,

In dirtbike engines old vs new. The cylinder liners went from castiron, to industrial chrome to nickasil. The old days with castiron they used castor oil, today maxima offers a blend of synthetic/ castor oil with there 927.. The industrial chrome and nickasil we can use the super maxima oil. 

My point is what material is the cylinder in the two stroke.

I tried to hone a cajiva cylinder on the husky once my hardest stones couldn’t do it. The stones in oil squeezed. The huskys chrome cylinders looks like the cajiva. This is why some seizures don’t mark the cylinders.


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## gyp69 (Apr 13, 2019)

Huskybill said:


> When my Husqvarna saws were new I used the husky oil. Mixed under 40:1 more like 38:1. They lasted me over two decades. I was told only to use husky oil in my new saws because they have tighter tolerances. I believe in using the manufacturers two stroke oil. I do run them oil rich. The little saws will foul but not that often. The bigger saws never fouled plugs running slightly oil rich,
> 
> In dirtbike engines old vs new. The cylinder liners went from castiron, to industrial chrome to nickasil. The old days with castiron they used castor oil, today maxima offers a blend of synthetic/ castor oil with there 927.. The industrial chrome and nickasil we can use the super maxima oil.
> 
> ...


My 2 cents, back around year 2000 l started getting paid on production cutting timber I ran a saw hard for 6.5 or 7 hrs 6 days a wk.I ran reg husky oil when I was running husky’s and I ran reg stihl oil when running stihls. I got a new saw and ran it hard right from the very first tank. Never even gave a thought to breaking in, later started running stihl synthetic. Then I got a computer about 2013 & started reading about oils & breakin etc & worrying about these things, started using Motul & running half throttle first little bit then stepping it up first few tanks. Long story short I never had a saw fail in any of these scenarios! I serviced them on Sunday,cleaned them, greased needle bearing, kept filter clean as I could.I believe one of the most important things I did was when I got bar pinched I didn’t jerk and wrench back and forth excessively I used a wedge or put on spare bar & got it out or if guy in next strip was close I got cut out, therefore I never caused an air leak and got it running lean. Lean equals saw failure I believe, sorry to ramble on about what was just supposed to be about oil. I still like Motul best because it just feels like it has way more lubricity between your fingers where the stihl & husky just feel thin but I’m not sure it makes a difference because I had luck with both!


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## ammoaddict (Apr 13, 2019)

Michael Kent said:


> Just curious as to how others feel about using fully synthetic 2 cycle oil in their chainsaws? Would this not be recommended for a saw breakin period if there is one, if used? Amsoil makes some good synthetic oils I’ve been told.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.
> 
> Mike


I use the Stihl ultra and it is made to mix 50:1, it's clean at that, but much richer it's pretty dirty. I will probably switch to amsoil saber when I use all the ultra.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Colt Marlington (Apr 13, 2019)

I'd like some purple oil. Might mix some red and blue together.


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## Huskybill (Apr 13, 2019)

Talk about break in time. I ran my new 2100/240 hard right away with husky oil and high test gas. They ran awesome from the get go. Note, after running stock craftsman sears saws I was in heaven cutting with the huskys. Soon after the 266SE joined the other two huskys.
Now fast forward my son hooked us up cleaning out big trees from a saw mill that wasn’t quality lumber. I purchased a new husky 385xp, a new 575, a new 353. I was told to run high test gas, and go easy while breaking them in. Only use husky two stroke oil in them because of the tighter tolarences. We cut 20 cords of firewood. As soon as we hit 20cords both saws turned on the after burners. At first they weren’t the same husky saws as my older husky saws were. They just weren’t cutting right. Once they were broken in they ran awesome.


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## Huskybill (Apr 13, 2019)

full chizel said:


> There is no problem asking but the more opinion you and get the more confused you’ll be



We must keep a clear mind and absorb it all fact wise then at some point sort it all out.

The husky two stroke oil looks similar to the maxima super M oil.


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## Marley5 (Apr 13, 2019)

I use Synthetics for the same reason I use LED flashlights......modern technology. Lol


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## madmarksolomon (Apr 13, 2019)

Motul 800 50:1 is king.


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## gyp69 (Apr 14, 2019)

madmarksolomon said:


> Motul 800 50:1 is king.


I mix Motul 44:1 because it is thick & leaves a little in the bottom of my little plastic mix ratio container unless you stand there for several minutes & let it drip drip drip.


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## U&A (Apr 14, 2019)

http://www.dragonfly75.com/moto/oil.html


I always like to here Oil opinions from guys that work on saws all the time. 

Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]


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## NickC (Apr 14, 2019)

gyp69 said:


> My 2 cents, back around year 2000 l started getting paid on production cutting timber I ran a saw hard for 6.5 or 7 hrs 6 days a wk.I ran reg husky oil when I was running husky’s and I ran reg stihl oil when running stihls. I got a new saw and ran it hard right from the very first tank. Never even gave a thought to breaking in, later started running stihl synthetic. *Then I got a computer about 2013 & started reading about oils & breakin etc & worrying about these things,* started using Motul & running half throttle first little bit then stepping it up first few tanks. Long story short I never had a saw fail in any of these scenarios! I serviced them on Sunday,cleaned them, greased needle bearing, kept filter clean as I could.I believe one of the most important things I did was when I got bar pinched I didn’t jerk and wrench back and forth excessively I used a wedge or put on spare bar & got it out or if guy in next strip was close I got cut out, therefore I never caused an air leak and got it running lean. Lean equals saw failure I believe, sorry to ramble on about what was just supposed to be about oil. I still like Motul best because it just feels like it has way more lubricity between your fingers where the stihl & husky just feel thin but I’m not sure it makes a difference because I had luck with both!



Sums it up well!

You wouldn't buy a brand new car and instantly drive it around everywhere on the rev limiter or sit on the drive with your foot flat to the floor needlessly revving it? You're a little gentle, let it rev, make it work but show it a little empathy? Probably...

So for the first tank try and be gentle, no WOT out of the cut etc. You're not going to 'bed' a hardened steel bearing into a hardened steel crank in a few tanks of fuel, I'd imagine it's more to ensure everything has a good coating of oil and moving properly before you expose it to excess load and heat.

I'd imagine that there are as many contradictory threads about oil mix, Stihl have been stipulating 50:1 for how many years? I'm not bothered by it so don't read them but I have glanced on threads saying that more oil is a waste of money and can be detrimental, lowering the octane, excess carbon etc. I use 50:1 plus 10% to allow for any miss-calculation or slight overfill of fuel / under measure of oil, works out about 45:1 on a good day. Still std red as the saws I have were designed to use it, modern stuff synthetic.


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## Deleted member 117362 (Apr 14, 2019)

Synthetic, mixed with e-free fuel. 40:1.


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## gary courtney (Apr 14, 2019)

schaefers 9000 full synthetic 32:1


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## NickC (Apr 14, 2019)

I'm not saying it's wrong but 32:1 is 56% more oil than the engine manufacturers design the engines around.

Without wishing to divert this thread any further is there any real evidence that this is beneficial? For example tests where two new saws have been run side by side for x thousand hours, one on 50:1 the other 32:1 then properly inspected and measured for wear? If there are such sites or threads please give me a link.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 14, 2019)

If you don't rinse out your mixing cup with fuel a good percentage of it is being left in the cup. Well unless you sit there and let it drip out for a few days.[emoji6]

There have been many side by side comparisons in the Cart and MX side of things, but not specifically with outdoor power equipment. Some models pretty much require more oil to keep the bottom end from letting go. We can argue whether or not the bottom end have a weak design, but that's a whole different topic.

One thing is pretty darn clear, with the appropriate oil and tuning, more oil is certainly not harmful. Although some of the thicker oils don't like the combust as well at richer mixtures. Motul 800 and Klotz R50 come to mind, great products, but saws have a hard time getting hot enough to burn them correctly IMHO, good for milling though.

Remember how many constraints manufacturers have to deal with. Do you really think 0W 20 is better for your cars engine? No it's to improve fuel economy and emissions. It's not about or designing what is absolutely best, it's about designing and recommending the best you can within the constraints of manufacturing and regulations. This is called the big picture IMHO.

Chainsaw engines are crude and have sloppy tolerances compared to other engines. Run them normally from the get go, just avoid really long cuts, and make sure to tune a little rich for the first 10 tanks or so. Run good quality oil and fuel and don't worry about it, especially with a stock saw. Most importantly keep the chain in good shape!!!!!!! that's far more important than the oil you run![emoji111]


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## North by Northwest (Apr 14, 2019)

Another vote for Amsoil Sabre , mix it 50:1 in all my 2-strokes . Previously used Klotz R which was primarily designed for its anti galling properties in high temp applications (Racing) . Any Premium Full Synthetic is a better oil than any Mineral based oil , you get what you pay for !


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## U&A (Apr 14, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> If you don't rinse out your mixing cup with fuel a good percentage of it is being left in the cup. Well unless you sit there and let it drip out for a few days.[emoji6]
> 
> There have keen many side by side comparisons in the Cart and MX side of things, but not specifically with outdoor power equipment. Some models pretty much require more oil to keep the bottom end from letting go. We can argue whether or not the bottom end have a weak design, but that's a whole different topic.
> 
> ...



Bingo!


Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]


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## HarleyT (Apr 14, 2019)




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## CR888 (Apr 14, 2019)

NickC said:


> 'You wouldn't buy a brand new car and instantly drive it around everywhere on the rev limiter or sit on the drive with your foot flat to the floor'


You want to see factory automotive test engineers start & run brand new 'off the line' engines in a factory. Those guys show NO mercy @WFOT! But...they DO know what their doing.


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## NickC (Apr 14, 2019)

CR888 said:


> You want to see factory automotive test engineers start & run brand new 'off the line' engines in a factory. Those guys show NO mercy @WFO! But...they DO know what their doing.



Yeah, very often testing to destruction or fault finding. I wonder if they would do the same if it was the zero miles motor in a car they'd just paid 40k for?

You don't have to nurse a new motor, but there's no harm in being a bit gentle with it for the first hour of it's life... It pains me when I see people start stone cold saws and instantly run them wot to 'warm them up'


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## gyp69 (Apr 14, 2019)

I am with you NickC, I only WOT to get an rpm on tach, still kinda cringe, I believe I may be a tad loony, although when cutting in wood I run the s—t out of them!


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 14, 2019)

Yes warming the engine up is good practice.


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## stihl86 (Apr 14, 2019)

Michael Kent said:


> Just curious as to how others feel about using fully synthetic 2 cycle oil in their chainsaws? Would this not be recommended for a saw breakin period if there is one, if used? Amsoil makes some good synthetic oils I’ve been told.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.
> 
> Mike


It's really impossible to know for sure. Been at a very large Stihl dealership for over 40 years as a mechanic.
Seen quite a bit over the years, but never an internal engine failure that could be directly linked to the use of Stihl HP.
It's a coventional oil. Very reasonably priced.
Mixing oil at the wrong ratio, as testing has shown, might cancel any advantages that a so called " Premium "oil can offer.
Most guys have a few saws. I handle 10-20 in a week.
Poor maintence kills saws. Not a quaility oil.
Not getting into a debate with the experts. Just my experiance.


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## Deleted member 117362 (Apr 14, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> It's really impossible to know for sure. Been at a very large Stihl dealership for over 40 years as a mechanic.
> Seen quite a bit over the years, but never an internal engine failure that could be directly linked to the use of Stihl HP.
> It's a coventional oil. Very reasonably priced.
> Mixing oil at the wrong ratio, as testing has shown, might cancel any advantages that a so called " Premium "oil can offer.
> ...



Or no maintenance at all!


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## HarleyT (Apr 14, 2019)

So more oil is better?


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## HarleyT (Apr 14, 2019)

Or less?


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## Deleted member 117362 (Apr 14, 2019)

HarleyT said:


> So more oil is better?


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## Deleted member 117362 (Apr 14, 2019)

HarleyT said:


> Or less?


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## HarleyT (Apr 14, 2019)

Or is 50:1 "Just right"?


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## TurboA2 (Apr 14, 2019)

Efree 93 (90 or 87 would be fine if I could get it) amsoil saber @ 45:1.


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## anlrolfe (Apr 14, 2019)

One more oil thread and I'm going back to SAE 30 mixed at 32:1
Use the same old oil for gas and bar...
Problem solved...
F- all those mosquitoes_ !!!_


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## TurboA2 (Apr 14, 2019)

anlrolfe said:


> One more oil thread and I'm going back to SAE 30 mixed at 32:1
> Use the same old oil for gas and bar...
> Problem solved...
> F- all those mosquitoes_ !!!_


Oil threads so fun though


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## sb47 (Apr 14, 2019)

Break in only apply's when you rebuild with un tempered parts. (i.e. new untreated piston)
I raced 2 strokes for years and I never had to break in a motor. Having said that, it is wise to run a NEW motor through a few heat cycles before you put a lot of stress on it.
I never broke in a chainsaw. I just run it the way I'm gonna run it rite from the start. Never had an issue.
As for oils, I use stihl 2 stroke oil in my stihl saws. seems to work just fine.


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## newforest (Apr 14, 2019)

I run Stihl HP Ultra. In both Swedish and German saws.

My Husqy 550 XP recently went over 800 hours on it. I might be the first customer at my shop to get one to 1,000 hours.

I just stick with regular 50:1 mixes.

Except ... one day this winter I was headed out to help a friend get through a blizzard weekend with a furnace out. I didn't want to fool with mixing some saw gas in the weather mess so I just picked up a can of pre-mix at the big box store. I forget the brand but I hadn't seen it before. It bragged about being good for either 50:1 or 40:1 somehow, for some reason. A little later I decided to just use it up at work, in my Stihl FS 560 brush-saw. That particular pre-mix fouled out the plug (M-Tronic in charge on this saw) within 20 minutes. I suspect it was actually a 40:1 mix and M-Tronic didn't like that, but dunno for sure. I won't be using that brand any more.

I sometimes get a kick out of how the HP Ultra can make exhaust smell like some weird food is being deep fried at the State Fair. Kinda makes me hungry sometimes.

I generally do keep a can of pre-mix in the toolbox for a day when I am not out running saws, but a tree might be in the road, etc. And today I used a little bit of Stihl MotoMix - I like to run that (or Husqy's version) in a saw that is going to be put away for a few months.

I only ran a half a tank through a Husqy 562 XP, finished up about 8 hours ago. I still can not get the taste of that exhaust off the tip of my tongue. MotoMix is HP Ultra + excellent 93 Octane gas. Works very well. But I truly hate how I can taste that exhaust when I use it.


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## gyp69 (Apr 15, 2019)

newforest said:


> I run Stihl HP Ultra. In both Swedish and German saws.
> 
> My Husqy 550 XP recently went over 800 hours on it. I might be the first customer at my shop to get one to 1,000 hours.
> 
> ...


I have a question about motomix, trufuel etc, they claim to have a shelf life of 2 yrs but stihl suggests that you don’t use gas you mix after 1 month because fuel & oil start to separate. I use e free gas & good mix oil so what is the deal? I know they use excellent gas not pump gas but still that doesn’t explain why their mix should last so much longer anyone know?


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## Marshy (Apr 15, 2019)

My saws says 40:1 on them... I use 42:1 because its 3 oz to one gal. And I slept in a Holliday Inn one time.


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## newforest (Apr 15, 2019)

The pre-mix stuff has fuel stabilizer additives to improve the shelf life of it. I find it quite handy to keep a little on hand for when working daily in timber-land but not running a saw. Otherwise, it is too expensive to use regularly.


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## JoshNY (Apr 15, 2019)

I honestly don't have any issues with the shelf life of my 2 stroke premix.
I use Amsoil Saber that has a,stabilizer additive in it with 91 octane ethanol free gas.
I keep it in a tightly sealed gas can and have had it last a year with no issue. (Although I don't store it that long anymore now that I'm burning wood).

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


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## gyp69 (Apr 15, 2019)

Thanks for info, fuel stabilizer additives would explain it.


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## ammoaddict (Apr 15, 2019)

gyp69 said:


> I have a question about motomix, trufuel etc, they claim to have a shelf life of 2 yrs but stihl suggests that you don’t use gas you mix after 1 month because fuel & oil start to separate. I use e free gas & good mix oil so what is the deal? I know they use excellent gas not pump gas but still that doesn’t explain why their mix should last so much longer anyone know?


The premix stuff is alkylate fuel, it doesn't have all the crap in it that gasoline does. That's why it has a longer shelf life. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Ted Jenkins (Apr 15, 2019)

_One more oil thread and I'm going back to SAE 30 mixed at 32:1
Use the same old oil for gas and bar...
Problem solved...
F- all those mosquitoes !!!_

Andy maybe you got it wrong because my old Mac book says 24:1 using 30 wt non detergent. Just maybe 60 and 70 years ago no knew how to measure. I do know that full synthetic does not mix with others. If you like synthetic you may keep it or not. I do agree mosquitoes do not like 30 wt as well as full synthetic. 

If my fuel gets more than a week or two old it is time to go cut some more even if the splitting pile is overwhelming, Never let the fuel sit more than a week and no problems. Thanks


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## kyle1! (Apr 15, 2019)

How many manufacturers make 2 cycle oil? I figure there is only 3 or 4 so just about any oil that is mixed correctly with E free gas is going to work. I think I have used 5 different brands of oil; stihl reg/ultra, husqvarna, FVP, Woodland Pro and Motul. Lately I have been using 40:1 Premix from Menards or Bomgaars when I find it on sale because I have not being using a lot of fuel. It seems to be all good.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes warming the engine up is good practice.


Ever hear the term "cold seized " lol.


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2019)

Yeah I remember back when manufacturers warned of full synthetic as detrimental to proper break in !


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2019)

Ted Jenkins said:


> _One more oil thread and I'm going back to SAE 30 mixed at 32:1
> Use the same old oil for gas and bar...
> Problem solved...
> F- all those mosquitoes !!!_
> ...


Nah farther back 1963 , 16:1 sae.30 lol. No mosquitoes , frogs , squirrels !


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## 944storm (Apr 15, 2019)

I see no mention of Royal purple. I have a quart and have started using it on my two stroke equipment. Any reason I don't hear about it?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## JoshNY (Apr 15, 2019)

944storm said:


> I see no mention of Royal purple. I have a quart and have started using it on my two stroke equipment. Any reason I don't hear about it?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


This is my opinion, so take it as you will.
I have studied a lot of oils over the years, and from what I have seen of Royal purple, it is an average synthetic oil, with purple dye added, and sold for a premium price.
There are better quality oils out there for the price.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


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## 944storm (Apr 15, 2019)

JoshNY said:


> This is my opinion, so take it as you will.
> I have studied a lot of oils over the years, and from what I have seen of Royal purple, it is an average synthetic oil, with purple dye added, and sold for a premium price.
> There are better quality oils out there for the price.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk


That explains why! Thank you for the input.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## stihl86 (Apr 15, 2019)

gyp69 said:


> I have a question about motomix, trufuel etc, they claim to have a shelf life of 2 yrs but stihl suggests that you don’t use gas you mix after 1 month because fuel & oil start to separate. I use e free gas & good mix oil so what is the deal? I know they use excellent gas not pump gas but still that doesn’t explain why their mix should last so much longer anyone know?



The fuel in the sealed / closed can will last 2 yrs. Once in the saw, it will last longer than pump fuel, but anything outside of 90 days is pushing it. As some have posted, run it through equipment when winterizing.


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## sundance (Apr 15, 2019)

JoshNY said:


> This is my opinion, so take it as you will.
> I have studied a lot of oils over the years, and from what I have seen of Royal purple, it is an average synthetic oil, with purple dye added, and sold for a premium price.
> There are better quality oils out there for the price.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk



With all the studying what have you picked to run?


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## Colt Marlington (Apr 15, 2019)

https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Purple...ocphy=9026912&hvtargid=pla-504072521007&psc=1
$13 a quart is fairly reasonable.


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## JoshNY (Apr 15, 2019)

sundance said:


> With all the studying what have you picked to run?


I run Amsoil Saber.
Stihl Ultra is pretty good.
Not saying they are the only good ones, just my personal choice.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


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## North by Northwest (Apr 15, 2019)

Just another consideration , ethanol prevents mineral oils to adhere to metal surfaces properly . Only Full Synthetic oil or Castor based oils fully adhere to metal surfaces when mixed with ethanol based gasoline !


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## ammoaddict (Apr 16, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> The fuel in the sealed / closed can will last 2 yrs. Once in the saw, it will last longer than pump fuel, but anything outside of 90 days is pushing it. As some have posted, run it through equipment when winterizing.


The trufuel that I bought says 5 years in unopened can. 2 years after opening.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## stihl86 (Apr 16, 2019)

ammoaddict said:


> The trufuel that I bought says 5 years in unopened can. 2 years after opening.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk




I don't doubt you, but I've never seen 5 yrs. But I do know, for sure, most advertising claims are 75% horse poop.
But that's just my opinion.
I own a MS290 that had MotoFuel left in it. It would not start after 7 months without a system flush.
Variables are endless I'm assuming.


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## ammoaddict (Apr 16, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> I don't doubt you, but I've never seen 5 yrs. But I do know, for sure, most advertising claims are 75% horse poop.
> But that's just my opinion.
> I own a MS290 that had MotoFuel left in it. It would not start after 7 months without a system flush.
> Variables are endless I'm assuming.


I'm not sure what went wrong with the motomix. I have a Stihl pole saw that I don't use very often and that's what I use the trufuel in. I left it for 1 1/2 years with the trufuel in the tank and when I finally went to use it, it fired right up and purred like a kitten.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Jan-Sietze (Apr 16, 2019)

Full synthetic @ 40:1 "developed specifically for high speed and heavy-duty (air or water-cooled) 2-stroke engines"


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## anlrolfe (Apr 16, 2019)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Andy maybe you got it wrong because my old Mac book says 24:1 using 30 wt non detergent. Just maybe 60 and 70 years ago no knew how to measure. I do know that full synthetic does not mix with others. If you like synthetic you may keep it or not. I do agree mosquitoes do not like 30 wt as well as full synthetic.



The SAE 30 is AMSOIL.......
See how I did that?

I use just about anything modern for air cooled engine. No TCW3


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## stihl86 (Apr 16, 2019)

anlrolfe said:


> The SAE 30 is AMSOIL.......
> See how I did that?
> 
> I use just about anything modern for air cooled engine. No TCW3



And whatever you use is probably just as good as any high priced, hyped oil.


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## NickC (Apr 17, 2019)

Oh dear, I've just ordered some HP Ultra - stepping into the future...

If my saws aren't twice as powerful, last twice as long, use half the fuel which lasts twice as long in the tank I'm not happy.... Or shall I run 100:1 then it's the same price as HP red?


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## stihl86 (Apr 17, 2019)

NickC said:


> Oh dear, I've just ordered some HP Ultra - stepping into the future...
> 
> If my saws aren't twice as powerful, last twice as long, use half the fuel which lasts twice as long in the tank I'm not happy.... Or shall I run 100:1 then it's the same price as HP red?



If you use Stihl brand saws, they already do. If you run those silly toys from that country better known for cheese, good luck.
Some guys swear by Ultra. Most swear at the price. If you feel it works better than HP, by all means, use it.
In a saw, I think the orange bottle is more than sufficient.
Stihl came out with Ultra, mainly because of their 4 Mix engines.
HP will carbon up a bac pac in 50 hrs.
HP never does it to a saw.


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## NickC (Apr 18, 2019)

Don't worry, all Stihl!

It's funny, I have very old saws that are perfectly healthy and have run mineral all their life, I have a 461 with the cylinder off atm that's had 50:1 mineral from new afaik. There's plenty of oil everywhere, no need to doubt it, but if all the hype is true I like the idea of synthetic. I have more saws than I need, I don't use them very frequently, I can't buy ethanol free where I am the best I can do is 5% in high octane pump fuel. So I like the idea of the fuel stabilisers to help it last a bit longer once mixed, and it working better with ethanol fuel. And if it does lubricate better that's great, I'll give it a try.

I expect the main benefit is the warm self satisfied feeling you get knowing you're feeding your saw the best, or just the most expensive oil available....

The price is outrageous! 20ltrs of full synthetic oil from Mercedes costs me around £50, 1 ltr of Stihl ultra? £23! Mugged off? Oh yes! And I'm not mixing it 32:1!


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## Huntaholic (Apr 18, 2019)

Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.


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## stihl86 (Apr 18, 2019)

Do you deal with the general public? If so, that is the root of your headaches. 
Idiots and morons *at *work could also be a source.


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## newforest (Apr 18, 2019)

Husqy XP oil is a synthetic blend I thought = not 100% synthetic? It doesn't create that same weird smell that HP Ultra does - which gets even weirder as part of "MotoMix." That exhaust is so strange I will go back to keeping a can of the Husqy pre-mix instead, for the random once-a-month cutting when I am not on saw work.

Few things create headaches like trying to run a saw for a government agency.


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## aokpops (Apr 19, 2019)

Might not be a 2 stroke but put amsoil in my Harley I never check it with a heat probe . But it seemed to run cooler made riding a lot more comfortable . My old 95 neon had like soap under the oil cap in the valve cover the engine light would be on the car would jump like at low speed or town driving . Put Mobile one in a few years back the engine cleaned up engine light went off no more jumping . I run amsoil in the air cooled engines mobile one in water cooled .


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## U&A (Apr 19, 2019)

I have been researching the **** out of 2 stroke oil lately for REAL info, not opinions. After months of doing this I settled on husky XP semi-Synthetic.

No need to worry anymore. 

And my new rebuilt 385XP, ported and MM’ed loves it at 32:1.


If you are a stihl guy, run your stihl oil. Great oil too. 

True synthetics that contain Esters can cause real troubles in 2 stroke engines. A little research and you can find this. 

Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]


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## Jan-Sietze (Apr 23, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> If you run those silly toys from that country better known for cheese, good luck.


The only 'Kaas koppen'* in the world are the Dutchman.

Unfortunately, no Dutch manufacturer of chainsaws is known to me...

* cheese heads


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## full chizel (Apr 23, 2019)

It doesn’t matter if you use Dino, synthetic, or semi-synthetic oil, If you run it at 40:1 with fresh fuel you will never have a oil related failure


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## tdiguy (Apr 24, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> If you use Stihl brand saws, they already do. If you run those silly toys from that country better known for cheese, good luck.


 Sweet, a saw bashing and oil thread! I just like one full of gas with a sharp chain....


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## sundance (Apr 24, 2019)

tdiguy said:


> Sweet, a saw bashing and oil thread! I just like one full of gas with a sharp chain....



I'm even more fond of one full of mix with a sharp chain.


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## tdiguy (Apr 24, 2019)

sundance said:


> I'm even more fond of one full of mix with a sharp chain.


 Yeah that stuff.


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## Termite (Dec 15, 2019)

Huntaholic said:


> Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.



The word "synthetic" is not a technical term but is an advertising phrase used by oil companies. Oil companies should really use the five oil groups to describe their product. The root cause of your headaches is probably an additive they use to make the group 4 and 5 oils work properly.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 15, 2019)

Termite said:


> The word "synthetic" is not a technical term but is an advertising phrase used by oil companies. Oil companies should really use the five oil groups to describe their product. The root cause of your headaches is probably an additive they use to make the group 4 and 5 oils work properly.


Correct!


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## Huskybill (Dec 15, 2019)

The two stroke oil saga continues,,,,,,,

All know is there’s a blend of synthetic/ Castor oil we use for castiron/steel sleeve two strokes and there’s a full synthetic blend we use in chrome and nickasil cylinders.

Hotsaws101 on you tube says for stock saws to use a full synthetic bel ray and for a ported saw to use the motul 800 full synthetic both oils produce less carbon deposits.

My husky dealer says to use non ethanol high test gas and the husky Xp + two stroke oil.

Now with castiron with a high nickel content like for engine block cylinders and disc brakes they form a glaze that’s as hard as chrome. There’s nothing wrong with a castiron cylinder as long as we use a Castor blend oil in two strokes. In castiron cylinders in fourstroke engines when we install chrome rings they take longer to break in. But the wear actually stops or slows Down as the rings are seated. On the racing engines 30 seconds of wot it took to seat the rings.
But that’s another post.

I remember mixing one can of two stroke oil to one gallon of gas for my Clinton engine on my rupp dart go kart.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 15, 2019)

Castor has it's place, but not in a normal saw IMHO, a race saw sure.

H1R is not an oil I recommend for use in saws, it won't always run right, and most of the testing done says it robs power due to poor combustion. Motul 800 is good stuff but a bit much in most applications.[emoji111]

I have mentioned this a thousand times by now lol.[emoji6]


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## Jo3 (Dec 15, 2019)

My humble opinion....

Syntetic oil are ranked by some scales
API , JASO ,GLOBAL ,ISO-

Usually JASO is a good standard scale...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Automotive_Standards_Organization

A JASO-FD syntetic oil are the best choice.

But...

If you usually mix with mineral oil, DONT use fully Syntetic.
A good fully syntetic has additives that clean the foulings of the piston and the crank : and generally a 2T feeded with mineral oil mix has some of them.
foulings goes everywhere in the cylinder and piston, with catastrophic consequences.

This is an example : fully syntetic oil additives start to clean the foulings of 2T usually feeded with mineral oil :


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## sb47 (Dec 15, 2019)

Huntaholic said:


> Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.





I would suspect it is not the oil thats the problem for your headaches but the fuel. I raced motocross for decades and even when we ran all 4 strokes and I was the Finnish line flagger, At the end of the day I always had a pounding headache from the racing fuel everyone was using. Even though I love the smell of racing fuel, it always gives me a headache.


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## Whiskers (Dec 16, 2019)

Huntaholic said:


> Not really a debate on which is best but I figured I would throw this info in anyway. I saw a post some time back with the poster asking if the Husqvarna synthetic mixing oil gave anybody else a headache besides him. That set me to thinking, for the last several years now Ive lived with an almost constant headache. Since I use my saws to make a living, theres hardly a 3 day span that passes that I don't use a chainsaw. These headaches were so bad that I was basically living on otc pain meds. In those spans that I might go several days without using a saw, the headaches eased up. So I figured I would switch mixing oils just to see. I couldn't find any husky oil that wasn't full synthetic so I tried stihl full synthetic. No change in the headaches. Out of desperation I picked up a 6 pk of the plain old orange bottle stihl oil, enough to mix 15 gal of fuel. Im on my last bottle now and I haven't had one of those headaches since I switched!! Maybe its all in my head but after 15 gallons of gas burned without a headache, Im sticking with plain old stihl oil from now on. If it burns my saws up by not using synthetic then so be it! I can rebuild my saws a lot better than I can deal with the headaches.



I used a couple hundred gallons of 50:1 mix with the Stihl orange bottle in all sorts of saws, blowers and trimmers this last year with no problems. Employees breaking my stuff on the other hand is a different story.


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## U&A (Dec 16, 2019)

Huskybill said:


> The two stroke oil saga continues,,,,,,,
> 
> All know is there’s a blend of synthetic/ Castor oil we use for castiron/steel sleeve two strokes and there’s a full synthetic blend we use in chrome and nickasil cylinders.
> 
> ...



Great post!!


Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2019)

Whiskers said:


> I used a couple hundred gallons of 50:1 mix with the Stihl orange bottle in all sorts of saws, blowers and trimmers this last year with no problems. Employees breaking my stuff on the other hand is a different story.


4mix engines is where the orange bottle is a problem.


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## Whiskers (Dec 16, 2019)

I’ve got 3 br700s and a br800 that run on the orange bottle. The br700s have for a couple years with no issue. I know it’s been said it can carbon up the valves. I’ve never experienced the problem, but the stuff isn’t sitting around idling either.


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## BlacknTan (Dec 16, 2019)

Huskybill said:


> The two stroke oil saga continues,,,,,,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mine too, and that's what he uses himself..

I wonder if we have the same dealer?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2019)

They've toughened up the 4mix models since they first came out so that take more abuse, but running that mix will cause large amounts of carbon buildup. Stihl even offers a product to clean the carbon out, doesn't work all that well though. In regular 2 strokes the orange bottle works well enough, 4mix engines need a synthetic or synthetic blend.[emoji111]


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## Termite (Dec 16, 2019)

In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!


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## ammoaddict (Dec 16, 2019)

Termite said:


> In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.
> 
> SUMMARY:
> Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.
> ...


That is very interesting, thanks.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## CR888 (Dec 16, 2019)

Termite said:


> In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.
> 
> SUMMARY:
> Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.
> ...


But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!


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## Termite (Dec 16, 2019)

CR888, Sir you over rate my tenacity. I just enjoy sharing information. Searching the web for accurate information about oil is difficult. So much B.S. out there. I am very sick of going to a site and reading "specially formulated", boy I hate that term because it means nothing. I have learned a good Group 3 motor oil does not smoke nor does it fall out of suspension even without any "special formulation". LOL.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2019)

Termite said:


> In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.
> 
> SUMMARY:
> Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.
> ...


Some of what you said is simply incorrect. I've done the research over the last 20 years myself. Yes lot's of bad and misunderstood information out there.

One example is the fact Esther oils have such a low molecular weight it penetrates into the upper layers of metal, plus it's polarized so it clings to metal. Synthetic oils do not prevent break in, that's an old wives tale, and has been debunked by manufacturers time and time again. Break in oil is used simply to flush engines built in small shops, manufacturers send them out of the factory with synthetic oil.

Some of the synthetic oils with high flash points do have a harder time combusting in normal use, but are very good for milling and such. Synthetic oils are not made of one component, the dispersants, solvents and other additives will affect combustion properties. That said we really haven't seen a difference in power even with the heavier synthetic oils, at ratios down to 16:1 in fact small gains, maybe do to better ring seal.

The reason we tend to recommend synthetic oil is because we've seen no drawbacks in actual use. Less buildup, less engine wear better thermal protection. 

Will non synthetic oils do harm? No of course not, but the cost difference is non existent, and most convention oil has a % of some type of synthetic anyway.[emoji111]


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2019)

CR888 said:


> But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!


I have played with all types of not only oils, but fuels and additives. The gains can be substantial. I have a pretty good combination for cookie cutting, most guys do. For normal cutting I just run what I've see protects the best and runs good, don't worry too much about it in a work saw, pretty much any oil will work there, except maybe Lucas oil lol.[emoji111]


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## Jo3 (Dec 16, 2019)

My two cents....

*At best : *
Every single 2T engine need a specific 2T oil.... and in every manual, the indication of what kind of oil is written.

Example :
Suzuki 47P (120cc) installed on old Toro Commercial lawnmover has got a compression ratio *6:1* *: this "IRON" 2Stroke needs a very low flash point oil, 
A high 2 Stroke engine oil (competition kart) is not good.
*(*)*The suzuki is rated to run 30.000 hours without any overhaul.


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## rogue60 (Dec 17, 2019)

CR888 said:


> But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!


Best one is when they blame stuck gummed up rings, intake load side of piston skirt wear, plating warn through and bigend/crank bearing failures all on sawdust fines! lol


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## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

Lot of good information from some knowledgeable gents . Being 65 yrs young I have pretty well tested all oil technology offered in the last 50 yrs . Either while racing snowmobiles and dirt bikes semi professionally to recreational vehicles to chainsaws , trimmers and lawnmowers . Great discussion that has brought back some fond memories from my earlier yrs . Castor oil was a fad during my racing days for severe service engine anti galling protection , however decarboning was routine , Klotz was my choice in the day . 16:1 oil to fuel was the norm back in the early 60,s within 2 stroke air cooled engines via straight Sae. 30 dino oil technology . Today other then when warranted eg. old Lawnboy mowers , I utilize the best technology of the day which is full premium grade synthetic oil for obvious reasons . My choice Amsoil Sabre mixed at either 50:1 or 70:1 dependant on whether the engine is air cooled or liquid cooled . There are most likely 6 other equally adequate syn oils available that have already been mentioned . Mineral oils other than Lawnboy applications are a step backwards in my educated opinion  .


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## BlacknTan (Dec 17, 2019)

In spite of the heat they get, I always read mix oil threads with great interest.

I know nothing about 2 or 4 stroke oil. I'm not an engineer, and have no insider who's brains I can pick. All I can do is follow the manufacturer's recommendation, my dealer's recommendations (and my dealer knows alot about chainsaw and small equipment engines!,) and follow my own instincts about what information to trust, so, I follow my dealer's advice first and manufacturer's advice second. They both concur, so I figure I can't be_ too_ far wrong...

JMHO.


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## Termite (Dec 17, 2019)

Broken said:


> My choice Amsoil Sabre mixed at either 50:1 or 70:1 dependant on whether the engine is air cooled or liquid cooled . There are most likely 6 other equally adequate syn oils available that have already been mentioned . Mineral oils other than Lawnboy applications are a step backwards in my educated opinion  .


 
A question for ya, do you consider Group 3 oils synthetic or just groups 4 & 5.

This Amsoil product apparently mixes a group 5 oil with a group 1 oil and has a lot of solvents to bring the flash point down to 102C. I bet the business model loves this oil. It's only $52 a gallon.

AMSoil Dominator (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $13.17/liter
25-40% group 5 oil, 30-50% group 1 oils (CAS 64742-47-8 + 64742-48-9)
viscosity 7.2 @ 100ºC, 36.5 @ 40ºC, viscosity index 165, .87 density, 102ºC flash point
unapproved rating: API TC

This Amsoil product apparently mixes a group 5 oil with a group 1 oil and has a lot of solvents to bring the flash point down to 102C. I bet the business model likes this one.


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## bwalker (Dec 17, 2019)

Couple of things. There is no need a to break in a saw. The lower ends on saws have ball bearings so there is nothing to break in there. The top end does benifit from the rings being seated to the cylinder, but this only happens with load. I run the snot out of them right off the bat to seat the rings.
As for oil. What's more important than if the oil is synthetic or not is that the oil being specifically formulated for air cooled equipment. Any oil that is actually Jaso FD or ISO EGD certified will work great.


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## bwalker (Dec 17, 2019)

Jo3 said:


> My two cents....
> 
> *At best : *
> Every single 2T engine need a specific 2T oil.... and in every manual, the indication of what kind of oil is written.
> ...


How did you come to the conclusion a low flashpoint oil is beneficial in that particular motor?


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## bwalker (Dec 17, 2019)

Termite said:


> In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.
> 
> SUMMARY:
> Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.
> ...


Kelsey, the author of that article should stick to building heads. Almost none of it is factual.


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## bwalker (Dec 17, 2019)

Broken said:


> Just another consideration , ethanol prevents mineral oils to adhere to metal surfaces properly . Only Full Synthetic oil or Castor based oils fully adhere to metal surfaces when mixed with ethanol based gasoline !


Ethanol has the same effect and worse on castor and ester based oils.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

Termite , as a former Stationary Engineer and not a Chemical Engineer I classify Dino or Mineral Oils in the Group II & III API guidelines , Synthetics are governed more by the Group IV & V Spec,s . As for Amsoil Dominator or Interceptor Grade Synthetic Oils are 50:1 rated oils , although they do have the benefits of the additives of Sabre they do not have the additional viscosity lubricity and Shear strength of Sabre Professional which is Manufacturer recommended at ratio,s from 50:1 to 100:1 . This old school premix methodology gives me all he protection I require at various fuel to oil ratios for different 2 stroke small engine applications . P.S. Sabre @ $10.50 / litre my cost !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .


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## BlacknTan (Dec 17, 2019)

I remember when Stihl Ultra was the greatest thing since sliced bread on the boards...

Now, not so much??


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## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

Stihl Ultra is still a fine oil in my opinion , as is Bel-Ray , Spectrum and 3 other Syn Group oils . Some operators seem to be less tolerant within emmisions sensitivities than others . Often the application or duration of engine usage may be the basic if not contributing factors !  .


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## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

BlacknTan said:


> In spite of the heat they get, I always read mix oil threads with great interest.
> 
> I know nothing about 2 or 4 stroke oil. I'm not an engineer, and have no insider who's brains I can pick. All I can do is follow the manufacturer's recommendation, my dealer's recommendations (and my dealer knows alot about chainsaw and small equipment engines!,) and follow my own instincts about what information to trust, so, I follow my dealer's advice first and manufacturer's advice second. They both concur, so I figure I can't be_ too_ far wrong...
> 
> JMHO.


Black , Dealers do not always provide the customer with best long term advice . I remember back in the 70,s a snowmobile dealer telling customers that they must use their manufacturer oil @ 32:1 when every other brand was running 50:1 with no ill effects . Dealer 1 sold a lot of spark plugs and spent warranty dollers decarbonizing cyl.heads or replacing damaged pistons from carbon fouled engines !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 17, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> I have played with all types of not only oils, but fuels and additives. The gains can be substantial. I have a pretty good combination for cookie cutting, most guys do. For normal cutting I just run what I've see protects the best and runs good, don't worry too much about it in a work saw, pretty much any oil will work there, except maybe Lucas oil lol.[emoji111]


Ditto that Bud !


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## bwalker (Dec 18, 2019)

Broken said:


> bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .


Two cycle oils are not subjected to high shear nor high pressure. Gear oils are.
I am well aware of castor's strengths. Which in no way over come its many issues when used in O P E.
Just for giggles what anti oxidant and water dispersent additives do you suppose are present in two cycle oils?


----------



## bwalker (Dec 18, 2019)

BlacknTan said:


> I remember when Stihl Ultra was the greatest thing since sliced bread on the boards...
> 
> Now, not so much??


Ultra is pure garbage in a saw. Might be useful in a 4 mix, but I will never know, because I refuse to own one.


----------



## CR888 (Dec 18, 2019)

Broken said:


> The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .


Can you explain how SDR is related to 2stoke oils. Thanx


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

CR888 said:


> Can you explain how SDR is related to 2stoke oils. Thanx


If you insist mate ! All internal combustion engines oils are rated for specific engine service groups (Sae.) . Api-TC is the applicable group that my current choice " Sabre " qualifies . Api- EGD would be your European rating equivalent mate . As to larger automotive or commercial or industrial 2 cycle applications Api-CD or C. F. would apply as to most stringent standards . As a former Diesel Mechanic back in the day I serviced numerous industrial 2 cycle diesels in the Mining Sector for ventilation and auxiliary lighting gen sets .


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Ultra is pure garbage in a saw. Might be useful in a 4 mix, but I will never know, because I refuse to own one.


Nothing wrong with Ultra , a very stout Premium Grade oil with the Jasco rating to back it . I however prefer Amsoil or Redmax due to $/litre costs . Most complaints I have heard were from exhaust screen and port carb on fouling due to over rich conditions . Fuel to Air or Fuel to Oil situations . Often attributed to High octane fuel usage which contribute further to these symptoms .


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> If you insist mate ! All internal combustion engines oils are rated for specific engine service groups (Sae.) . Api-TC is the applicable group that my current choice " Sabre " qualifies . Api- EGB would be your European rating equivalent mate . As to larger automotive or commercial or industrial 2 cycle applications Api-CD or C. F. would apply as to most stringent standards . As a former Diesel Mechanic back in the day I serviced numerous industrial 2 cycle diesels in the Mining Sector for ventilation and auxiliary lighting gen sets .


API TC is long obsolete. Most of the OEM oil is jaso FC/FD which is alot better quality than API TC. Sabre Carrie's no certifications either.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Two cycle oils are not subjected to high shear nor high pressure. Gear oils are.
> I am well aware of castor's strengths. Which in no way over come its many issues when used in O P E.
> Just for giggles what anti oxidant and water dispersent additives do you suppose are present in two cycle oils?


just for giggles Calcium Carbonate additive for anti oxident or non ionic sufactant additive for dispersant for phase separation control . These are common chemical additives utilized within numerous premium synthetic oils . I use Sabre over conventional Api- TD rated marine oils since it has these even in a TC Air cooled rated oil . P.S. Any high rpm small engine is subjected to High pressure and temperature , however the abilities of Castor or Syn oil is to resist the separation of these oils from the mating surfaces due to the solvancy of ethanol fuels is noted by numerous racing associations .


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Nothing wrong with Ultra , a very stout Premium Grade oil with the Jasco rating to back it . I however prefer Amsoil or Redmax due to $/litre costs . Most complaints I have heard were from exhaust screen and port carb on fouling due to over rich conditions . Fuel to Air or Fuel to Oil situations . Often attributed to High octane fuel usage which contribute further to these symptoms .


There is alot wrong with Ultra in a saw as many people have found out. Ultra is Jaso FB rated. Which is a 30+year old standard. It will not pass FC or FD.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> API TC is long obsolete. Most of the OEM oil is jaso FC/FD which is alot better quality than API TC. Sabre Carrie's no certifications either.


Whether or not it is obsolete today is not the point . It was in my day for its application as are other current ratings .


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> There is alot qrong with Ultra in a saw as many people have found out. Ultra is Jaso FB rated. Which is a 30+year old standard. It will not pass FC or FD.





bwalker said:


> There is alot qrong with Ultra in a saw as many people have found out. Ultra is Jaso FB rated. Which is a 30+year old standard. It will not pass FC or FD.


Neither is Sae. 30 mineral oil which was used in numerous Saw Manufacturers in the 60,s along with use as bar oil until tactility technology allowed development of bar oils . Nothing wrong with Sae 30 either if you understood it limitations and downside , which was primarily smoking and carbon fouling issues requiring routine cleaning . The biggest complaint with Ultra is nuisance odour complaints . P.S. The most stringent oil standard currently is EGD which supersedes all Jasco ratings .


----------



## full chizel (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Nothing wrong with Ultra , a very stout Premium Grade oil with the Jasco rating to back it . I however prefer Amsoil or Redmax due to $/litre costs . Most complaints I have heard were from exhaust screen and port carb on fouling due to over rich conditions . Fuel to Air or Fuel to Oil situations . Often attributed to High octane fuel usage which contribute further to these symptoms .



Yes it has a crappy Jaso FB rating to back it.


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## MacAttack (Dec 19, 2019)

The only bad 2 cycle oil is the one you forget to mix into your gas or use to fill up your oil injection tank.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 19, 2019)

It really makes little to no difference whatsoever what oil one chooses to run in their chainsaws. Is Homelite saws better than Stihl or Husqvarna or not. All saws have an important factor to the owner. One owner wants a saw to cut fallen limbs around his house another cuts logs for a living. They are not the same. In race motors extreme conditions exist that almost can not be forecasted. On liquid cooled motors engineers try to build a set up that can function well in extreme conditions, but with jetting just right motors still will score the cylinder walls. A motor often cools down after decelerating then suddenly it goes to full throttle and RPM which will often cause internal damage. With chain saws not the case. They are air cooled which is a good thing. All mix ratios have their pros and cons as well as all oils. One oil shines for one application another shines in yet another direction. Few here at AS will ever wear out their saw motor with a decent brand of oil with a decent mix ratio. If one over lubricates the engine will create more carbon than the one that is running lean. For me I shy away from synthetics because they are not all compatible with other oils. For the person who likes fully synthetic oil in all their equipment it will work fine, but not always can be mixed with another brand or non synthetic. Thanks


----------



## huskihl (Dec 19, 2019)

Ultra is a great lubricant, like for drill bits and such. 

Not so great when it gets ignited repeatedly


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## RedFir Down (Dec 19, 2019)

Here is what stihl Ultra looks like.
Look at the bottom of the ring land and notice the wear. 
It had 90 PSI of compression and would not run (obviously). Low hour machine too.









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## huskihl (Dec 19, 2019)

Ms362 I ported in April run on Ultra

I’d be nervous about a thicker piece of carbon flaking off and potentially smearing up the piston or sticking the rings


----------



## MacAttack (Dec 19, 2019)

RedFir Down said:


> Here is what stihl Ultra looks like.
> Look at the bottom of the ring land and notice the wear.
> It had 90 PSI of compression and would not run (obviously). Low hour machine too.
> 
> ...



Is that your saw that you ran personally, or one that you're fixing for a customer or the like?


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> just for giggles Calcium Carbonate additive for anti oxident or non ionic sufactant additive for dispersant for phase separation control . These are common chemical additives utilized within numerous premium synthetic oils . I use Sabre over conventional Api- TD rated marine oils since it has these even in a TC Air cooled rated oil . P.S. Any high rpm small engine is subjected to High pressure and temperature , however the abilities of Castor or Syn oil is to resist the separation of these oils from the mating surfaces due to the solvancy of ethanol fuels is noted by numerous racing associations . P.S.S. How many Upper, s does it take to screw in a lite bulb ?


Calcium carbonate is not used in two cycle oils. Calcium sulfanates are. Neither are an anti oxidant.
And no, the oil in a two cycle motor is not subject to high pressure at all.
Castor and synthetics are actually more affected by ethanol than mineral based oils.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> E
> 
> Neither is Sae. 30 mineral oil which was used in numerous Saw Manufacturers in the 60,s along with use as bar oil until tactility technology allowed development of bar oils . Nothing wrong with Sae 30 either if you understood it limitations and downside . The biggest complaint with Ultra is nuisance odour complaints . P.S. The most stringent oil standard currently is EGD which supersedes as Jasco ratings .


Actually no EGD and Jaso FD are the same rating using the same tests.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

RedFir Down said:


> Here is what stihl Ultra looks like.
> Look at the bottom of the ring land and notice the wear.
> It had 90 PSI of compression and would not run (obviously). Low hour machine too.
> 
> ...


FB oils had issues with port blocking like that often. I had a three wheeler when Inwas a kid that had the exhaust port almost completely blocked off.


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## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> E
> 
> Neither is Sae. 30 mineral oil which was used in numerous Saw Manufacturers in the 60,s along with use as bar oil until tactility technology allowed development of bar oils . Nothing wrong with Sae 30 either if you understood it limitations and downside . The biggest complaint with Ultra is nuisance odour complaints . P.S. The most stringent oil standard currently is EGD which supersedes as Jasco ratings .


Sae 30w in a two cycle sucked too. I tore apart a Wajax brand fire pump that was powered by a 300cc single cylinder Bombardier engine that was ran its entire life in 30w. It was possibly the nastiest two cycle I had ever been in. By the looks of it it didnt have many hours on it either, but it had no compression due to the rings being completely stuck in their grooves.


----------



## Kenskip1 (Dec 19, 2019)

Michael Kent said:


> Just curious as to how others feel about using fully synthetic 2 cycle oil in their chainsaws? Would this not be recommended for a saw breakin period if there is one, if used? Amsoil makes some good synthetic oils I’ve been told.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions.
> 
> Mike


 I have been using Amsoil Saber at 40/1 for the past 15 years without a single oil related issue.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Ted Jenkins said:


> It really makes little to no difference whatsoever what oil one chooses to run in their chainsaws. Is Homelite saws better than Stihl or Husqvarna or not. All saws have an important factor to the owner. One owner wants a saw to cut fallen limbs around his house another cuts logs for a living. They are not the same. In race motors extreme conditions exist that almost can not be forecasted. On liquid cooled motors engineers try to build a set up that can function well in extreme conditions, but with jetting just right motors still will score the cylinder walls. A motor often cools down after decelerating then suddenly it goes to full throttle and RPM which will often cause internal damage. With chain saws not the case. They are air cooled which is a good thing. All mix ratios have their pros and cons as well as all oils. One oil shines for one application another shines in yet another direction. Few here at AS will ever wear out their saw motor with a decent brand of oil with a decent mix ratio. If one over lubricates the engine will create more carbon than the one that is running lean. For me I shy away from synthetics because they are not all compatible with other oils. For the person who likes fully synthetic oil in all their equipment it will work fine, but not always can be mixed with another brand or non synthetic. Thanks


Ted I agree , if you have an older engine that has been accustomed to mineral oil , there will be residual residue or carbon that can cause issues , when some synthetics oils are introduced . Foaming is very prevalent with small engine splash lubrication systems such as lawnmowers and tillers etc . Good post Bud !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Sae 30w in a two cycle sucked too. I tore apart a Wajax brand fire pump that was powered by a 300cc single cylinder Bombardier engine that was ran its entire life in 30w. It was possibly the nastiest two cycle I had ever been in. By the looks of it it didnt have many hours on it either, but it had no compression due to the rings being completely stuck in their grooves.


Again nothing wrong with Sae. usage with Bombardier " Rotax " Air cooled engines , however the Oil service intervals had to be maintained back then . Carbon fouling of heads & rings was routine . Been there done that a hundred times back in the day , over my 65 yrs , where have you been dude ? Anyhow Michigander , " Here ends the Lesson " Have a Merry Xmas and even better New Yr ! Until we meet again at Deer Camp in Hessel or Houghton Lake .


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Actually no EGD and Jaso FD are the same rating using the same tests.


 Wrong , Try again Sport !


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Actually I am 100 % correct. 

"The ISO L-EGD and JASO FD are the exact same performance specification"

http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-2-2-stroke/


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## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Again nothing wrong with Sae. usage with Bombardier " Rotax " Air cooled engines , however the Oil service intervals had to be maintained back then . Carbon fouling of heads & rings was routine . Been there done that a hundred times back in the day , over my 65 yrs , where have you been dude ? Anyhow Michigander , " Here ends the Lesson " Have a Merry Xmas and even better New Yr ! Until we meet again at Deer Camp in Hessel or Houghton Lake .


Yea, nothing wrong except they perform like chit.. what alternate world are you living in?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Wrong , Try again Sport !


Sorry my friend, Ben and I haven't always seen eye to eye one everything, but everything he's said in response to your posts is correct. You're out of your knowledge depth, some of the things you've said do not even have relevance when discussing air cooled two cycle engines, the rest is just completely incorrect information.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Kenskip1 said:


> I have been using Amsoil Saber at 40/1 for the past 15 years





bwalker said:


> API TC is long obsolete. Most of the OEM oil is jaso FC/FD which is alot better quality than API TC. Sabre Carrie's no certifications either.


 Sabre carries Jasco FD , ISO & EGD certification !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Yea, nothing wrong except they perform like chit.. what alternate world are you living in?


Performed well for 70 yrs prior to you landing here Jethro , just not as well as Castor or Syn oils when subjected to the crap ethanol fuel we must consume today , which is where we started this conversation Junior ...sheesh , they say you can take a horse to water , however sometimes you must drown it to get it to Drink !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Actually I am 100 % correct.
> 
> "The ISO L-EGD and JASO FD are the exact same performance specification"
> 
> http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-2-2-stroke/


Currently EGD is the Standard World wide for the highest quality oil specifications than Asia or U S .


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## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Kenskip1 said:


> I have been using Amsoil Saber at 40/1 for the past 15 years





bwalker said:


> There is alot wrong with Ultra in a saw as many people have found out. Ultra is Jaso FB rated. Which is a 30+year old standard. It will not pass FC or FD.


So what ? FB was the Standard for saw applications for yrs Junior , Try to stay on point please .


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Sabre carries Jasco FD , ISO & EGD certification !


Incorrect it does not have JASO certification. All oils that have that certification will have this emblem with the certification number. Without the emblem the manufacturer is simply making a claim that it meets their standards, which it may or may not, but it has not been officially certified. This has been hashed out before. 

Here are two pictures of oils that have actual certification. Motul 710 and RedArmor.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry my friend, Ben and I haven't always seen eye to eye one everything, but everything he's said in response to your posts is correct. You're out of your knowledge depth, some of the things you've said do not even have relevance when discussing air cooled two cycle engines, the rest is just completely incorrect information.


 Sorry if I have disappointed you but what I have advised are correct and apply to various oil service group representing Recreational , Automotive and Diesel engine applications . I also outlined were Dino or Mineral based oil evolved through Castor to todays most advanced Synthetic based ester oils for usage within Vintage Chainsaws to todays micro computerized / cat muffed units Eg : Oil use in a 2 stroke diesel application has relevance to a chainsaw if you understand the lubricity & solvency equation !


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 19, 2019)

Tapatalk is turning a picture sideways for some reason, oh well.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Sabre carries Jasco FD , ISO & EGD certification !


No, it doesnt!


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Sorry if I have disappointed you but what I have advised are correct and apply to various oil service group representing Recreational , Automotive and Diesel engine applications . I also outlined were Dino or Mineral based oil evolved through Castor to todays most advanced Synthetic based ester oils for usage within Vintage Chainsaws to todays micro computerized / cat muffed units Eg : Oil use in a 2 stroke diesel application has relevance to a chainsaw if you understand the lubricity & solvency equation !


Not one thing you just said is true or factually correct..


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Incorrect it does not have JASO certification. All oils that have that certification will have this emblem with the certification number. Without the emblem the manufacturer is simply making a claim that it meets their standards, which it may or may not, but it has not been officially certified. This has been hashed out before.
> 
> Here are two pictures of oils that have actual certification. Motul 710 and RedArmor.


Would Specified be a better acrynom . I see on U.S. Bottles it does not mention Certification on Sabre ?


Andyshine77 said:


> Tapatalk is turning a picture sideways for some reason, oh well.


No Biggy Andre , I can work outside the box lol. Perhaps in the USA Amsoil oil is not Certified . In Canada it most certainly is .


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Performed well for 70 yrs prior to you landing here Jethro , just not as well as Castor or Syn oils when subjected to the crap ethanol fuel we must consume today , which is where we started this conversation Junior ...sheesh , they say you can take a horse to water , however sometimes you must drown it to get it to Drink ! Adios Jethro !!!


Actually for years two cycle oils performed very poorly..
Your assertions on castor and synthetics are also incorrect..


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## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Would Speci
> 
> No Biggy Andre , I can work outside the box lol. Perhaps in the USA Amsoil oil is not Certified . In Canada it most certainly is .


Yea..no its not.


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## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> So what ? FB was the Standard for saw applications for yrs Junior , Try to stay on point please .


Antique chainsaws are unlike today's chainsaws. Even if they were FB rated oils still are a very poor choice. They sucked back then and they suck now.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Not one thing you just said is true or factually correct..


Elaborate please ?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Sorry if I have disappointed you but what I have advised are correct and apply to various oil service group representing Recreational , Automotive and Diesel engine applications . I also outlined were Dino or Mineral based oil evolved through Castor to todays most advanced Synthetic based ester oils for usage within Vintage Chainsaws to todays micro computerized / cat muffed units Eg : Oil use in a 2 stroke diesel application has relevance to a chainsaw if you understand the lubricity & solvency equation !


I mean no offense. However you're way out in left field. In fact I believe you know so little about the subject, you think you actually do. I am not disappointed, I just think you need to slow down and stop spending inaccurate information based off of what is obviously not the best understanding of the subject.

Just for starters the use of heavy minerals in 2-cycle engine is limited, as the oil is burned in large quantities compared to engines with an oiling sump. These additives would cause large amounts of Ash build up.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Would Specified be a better acrynom . I see on U.S. Bottles it does not mention Certification on Sabre ?
> 
> No Biggy Andre , I can work outside the box lol. Perhaps in the USA Amsoil oil is not Certified . In Canada it most certainly is .


That makes no sense, as the certification is universal in all countries, JASO is actually a Japanese certification. The mention of a certification does not mean it is actually certified, it has to have the emblem along with the certification number, otherwise it is nothing more than marketing.[emoji111]

Amsoil Saber is in fact an excellent product nonetheless.


----------



## rogue60 (Dec 19, 2019)

I actually ran out of my 2T oil at work once I had to get the job done no matter what and in a timely maner.
Anyways I made up a mix with used diesel oil the mix was black as! Lol
Long story short ran a few tanks of this mix and I got the job done no complaints or ill effects to the saw the mix performed well and yes it did smell but no worse than nasty Ultra. long term IDK how it would go maybe it would still outperform Ultra? Lol.
Oh I better add it was a rated used diesel oil for 2T's as I did write on the mix jug THE GOOD STUFF!


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## Termite (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Termite , as a former Stationary Engineer and not a Chemical Engineer I classify Dino or Mineral Oils in the Group II & III API guidelines , Synthetics are governed more by the Group IV & V Spec,s . As for Amsoil Dominator or Interceptor Grade Synthetic Oils are 50:1 rated oils , although they do have the benefits of the additives of Sabre they do not have the additional viscosity lubricity and Shear strength of Sabre Professional which is Manufacturer recommended at ratio,s from 50:1 to 100:1 . This old school premix methodology gives me all he protection I require at various fuel to oil ratios for different 2 stroke small engine applications . P.S. Sabre @ $10.50 / litre my cost !


 
Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $17.83/liter
under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For stock to moderately modified engines.
15.4 viscosity @ 100ºC, 89.6 @40ºC, viscosity index 183, density .88, 155ºC flash point
unapproved rating: JASO FC 
If under 70 percent of this oil is actually oil what is the remainder of their "specially formulated" concoction. Notice they don't mind charging you plenty for group one oil and probably a lot of cheap solvent to help it mix with the gasoline. Although I don't know for certain I bet they call this oil full synthetic.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Termite said:


> Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
> You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
> Cost: $17.83/liter
> under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
> ...


Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Antique chainsaws are unlike today's chainsaws. Even if they were FB rated oils still are a very poor choice. They sucked back then and they suck now.





Termite said:


> Stationary Engineer, I had to look that up.
> You may classify synthetics as group 4&5 but these oil companies don't. Group 3 is considered synthetic even though it is made differently. These oil companies are the most deceitful group on the earth if you take away politicians and lawyers. Now how can we have a conversation if we don't agree on the definition of "synthetic". Also, how can someone recommend a mix ratio when it is difficult to tell how much oil is actually in the oil? For Example. Red Line AllSport (data: #1 #2)
> Cost: $17.83/liter
> under 45% group 5 oil (CAS 68334-05-4), under 25% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
> ...


Termite , the class III rating is a semi synthetic or blended synthetic oil actually if memory serves me correctly . At 65 it's over 40 yrs since I served my Diesel apprenticeship lol. Actually a lot of the issues with 2 cycle engines today in my opinion especially mineral based dino oils usage , is the synergistic effect of the base oil and ethanol fuel . Thus my original recommendation for Synthetic oil over cheaper mineral oil in today's fuel market .


----------



## Termite (Dec 19, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
> Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
> The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.



Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick? 
My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Broken said:


> Termite , the class III rating is a semi synthetic or blended synthetic oil actually if memory serves me correctly . At 65 it's over 40 yrs since I served my Diesel apprenticeship lol. Actually a lot of the issues with 2 cycle engines today in my opinion especially mineral based dino oils usage , is the synergistic effect of the base oil and ethanol fuel . Thus my original recommendation for Synthetic oil over cheaper mineral oil in today's fuel market .


Your memory is off so is the rest of the stuff you posted.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 19, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes warming the engine up is good practice.


Cold seize mean anything to you ?


----------



## bwalker (Dec 19, 2019)

Termite said:


> Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick?
> My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
> I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.


API group three is a real thing.
Your assertion about juicing poor oils with additives is completely false. For starters with two cycle oils there are pretty narrow standards for things like sulfated ash which prevents this. Which is why buying an actually JASO certified oil instead of trusting Scamsoil is important.


----------



## CR888 (Dec 19, 2019)

A lot of the poor info broken is spewing is just wrong and conflicting. I'm not going to even start to go into it. Just stop.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

Termite said:


> Actually, I do agree with you about group 3 oils. I think a highly refined mineral oil works great. Is group 3+ a true rating in the oil industry or just another sales gimmick?
> My point, I am not very good at making, is the oil blenders who try to sell their magic concoction, with a bunch of additives to make up for the use of poor base oils, all to make maximum profits. Now I know everybody has to make profits but a little honesty wouldn't hurt.
> I worked maintenance in a chemical plant I know the mentality. I still hate it when they use the term "Specially Formulated" and then won't even tell you what the base oil is or how much of it is even oil.


Termite , yeah numerous snake oils out there . Most definitely Api Grade III oils are valid specs for semi or blended syn. oil . Grade IV & V are full syn & full syn with additives . It would appear that certain members of this forum presume Amsoil Products to be in the snake oil classification . As to base oils mineral oil is mineral oil just a carrier and combustion product . Additives in my opinion are specific to the intended usage of the product . The point I unsuccessfully was trying to convey , is that a Premium Synthetic oil would be prudent over a mineral grade 2 cycle oil combined with current ethanol fuel available today . Proprietary issues are common in oil , grease and fuel additives . However current Safety legislation provides the basic chemical analysis via msds sheets for any hazardous component . As I have previously mentioned , I have used Sabre in numerous 2 cycle applications for over 10 yrs without any mechanical wear or failure . However as I also advised there are at least an additional 6 Syn oils on the market of equal quality available . The jest of Sabre use for me is the flexibility it provides within numerous air cooled , liquid cooled or even marine small engine applications @ a reasonable price point , obviously others disagree !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Honestly, if you realised what went into making a group 3, or 3+ base oil you might look at it differently. I work in a refinery currently and have seen the equipment. Not to mention the fact that there is testing that suggests some group 3 oils are better than group 4,5 base oils in 4 cycle engines.
> Regardless, none of this group crap really applies to two cycle oils.
> The other thing missed by many is the fact that there isnt a single Jaso FC or FD oil that is straight mineral oil. All of them are at least a synthetic blend typically of PIB and highly refined mineral oil.





bwalker said:


> Actually I am 100 % correct.
> 
> "The ISO L-EGD and JASO FD are the exact same performance specification"
> 
> http://www.mototribology.com/articles/jaso-explained-part-2-2-stroke/


Not when I last was evaluating oils , EGD rating was always a 3 hr test evaluation where as FD was only 1 he failure rating . Anyhow I digress , have it your way Jethro , ratings change !


----------



## MacAttack (Dec 20, 2019)

Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?

I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?
> 
> I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.


Echo Powerblend or Echo Powerblend Gold ? lol. FD Rating would put it in the Ashless Group ( less than .18 % ) ash content . FB & FC Rating Low Ash Group ( .18 -.25 % ) ash content . The Old TCW-3 Marine Oil specifications dealt with low ash compliance for environmental compliance back in the day , hope this helps within your application Bud !


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## MacAttack (Dec 20, 2019)

Broken said:


> Echo Powerblend or Echo Powerblend Gold ? lol. FD Rating would put it in the Ashless Group ( less than .18 % ) ash content FB & FC Rating Low Ash Group ( .18 -.25 % ) ash content . The Old TCW-3 Marine Oil specifications dealt with low ash compliance for environmental compliance back in the day , hope this helps within your application Bud !



Thanks, it does help!

I think i have a bottle of Power Blend "Extended Life", was wondering if it was low ash for small air cooled engines or if that ideology is going away.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Thanks, it does help!
> 
> I think i have a bottle of Power Blend "Extended Life", was wondering if it was low ash for small air cooled engines or if that ideology is going away.


As previously advised the Jaso rating will supply your answer lol. Ash is still a very prevalent issue within engines . It can be a simple lubricity product or liability long term with potential for internal engine component deposit damage potential under certain operating perimeters . Secondarily is the Environment impact potential . Hope this helps within your intended usage Bud !


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## MacAttack (Dec 20, 2019)

Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?


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## Termite (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> API group three is a real thing.
> Your assertion about juicing poor oils with additives is completely false. For starters with two cycle oils there are pretty narrow standards for things like sulfated ash which prevents this. Which is why buying an actually JASO certified oil instead of trusting Scamsoil is important.



Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $9.92/liter
Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
8.5 viscosity @100ºC, 55 @ 40ºC, Viscosity Index 128, .88 density, 174ºC flash point
rating: not tested (probably FC due to its group 1 + 2 oils)

Here is a well know oil. I consider it a "ScamOil". At almost $40 a gallon I expect more. It must have one hell of an additive package to be good for high performance, high temperature applications.
Does it work? Hell Yes. Is it the best? No. Is it a rip off? Without a doubt.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?


Yep , Thats what I have done with Amsoil Sabre , even though it only rated for air cooled small hand held engine unit service by Amsoil it does carry Jaso FD I-SO & EGD Designation . I utilize it even in my liquid cooled Polaris 700 SKS snowmobile and Yamaha 4 Hp outboard on my duck boat . I only change the mix ratio,s according to application . I have not used the Powerblend rather the Red bottle product from Shindawa previously which is Echo,s Parent Company . Ashless or Low Ash @ 40:1 ratio is a safe bet with your units described , keep any eye on your plug and exhaust screens to access your optimal engine operation criteria . All the Best Bud !


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## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Do any of you smart dudes know if FD rated oils (Echo Powerblend) are ashless or low-ash oils?
> 
> I couldn't seem to find this info on the Echo site.


Low ash.


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## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Termite said:


> Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
> Cost: $9.92/liter
> Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
> For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
> ...


You have O clue what your talking about..again...


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Termite said:


> Yamaha Yamalube 2R (data: #1 #2)
> Cost: $9.92/liter
> Under 69% group 2 oil (CAS 64742-54-7), 17% group 1 oil (CAS 64742-47-8)
> For the high temperatures, rigorous demands and stresses of competition engines.
> ...


And btw CAS#CAS 64742-54-7 is one used for group three oils..


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> No, it doesnt!


I stand corrected , I looked at my Amsoil Sabre Professional where it is a Designated ISO-L EGD & Jaso FD Compliant , Not Certified , actually a moot point in the real world , but Ben is correct !


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Only a moot point if you prefer to deal with companies that try to mislead you.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Actually for years two cycle oils performed very poorly..
> Your assertions on castor and synthetics are also incorrect..


Ben , they worked fine within the perimeters of the oil technology and engine designs of the time and the tested applications that they were utilized , that was and is my point Bud !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Only a moot point if you prefer to deal with companies that try to mislead you.


Nothing misleading , Sabre is a fine oil for my applications , ever hear of the term Equivalency ? Eg: Certified vs Specified Compliant !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> I mean no offense. However you're way out in left field. In fact I believe you know so little about the subject, you think you actually do. I am not disappointed, I just think you need to slow down and stop spending inaccurate information based off of what is obviously not the best understanding of the subject.
> 
> Just for starters the use of heavy minerals in 2-cycle engine is limited, as the oil is burned in large quantities compared to engines with an oiling sump. These additives would cause large amounts of Ash build up.


No offence taken Andre !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> That makes no sense, as the certification is universal in all countries, JASO is actually a Japanese certification. The mention of a certification does not mean it is actually certified, it has to have the emblem along with the certification number, otherwise it is nothing more than marketing.[emoji111]
> 
> Amsoil Saber is in fact an excellent product nonetheless.


Yes , Sabre Professional is a very fine ester 10 yrs use in real world testing has proven that to me !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Antique chainsaws are unlike today's chainsaws. Even if they were FB rated oils still are a very poor choice. They sucked back then and they suck now.


My Pioneer 11:60 & P-20 or the Quaker State Mineral oil , did not suck then or now , both saws manufactured with Chrome Plated Bore , Full Torrington Crank Caged Ball Bearings with 18 " & 16 " bars and 404 chains . Specified for 16:1 ratio Mineral oil in the 60,s . Today 60 yrs later run within original compression spec,s on Sabre @ 40:1 the last 10 yrs !


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## CR888 (Dec 20, 2019)

Broken said:


> I stand corrected , I looked at my Amsoil Sabre Professional where it is a Designated ISO-L EGD & Jaso FD Compliant , Not Certified , actually a moot point in the real world , but Ben is correct !


Oh really.....you just worked that out. Well done! Keep digesting the look aid.


----------



## CR888 (Dec 20, 2019)

Broken said:


> nothing misleading , Sabre is a fine oil for my applications ever hear of the term Equivalency ? Eg: Certified vs Specified Compliant !


Its either certified or its NOT. Clearly you got taken.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

CR888 said:


> Its either certified or its NOT. Clearly you got taken.


@ under $10:00 / litre ..not !


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

CR888 said:


> Its either certified or its NOT. Clearly you got taken.


And you cant tell if it is equivalent without running the tests, which Scamsoil hasnt.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 20, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Low ash.


I see redundancy is another one of your traits , I think this question has already been adequately answered to the op,s satisfaction !


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Broken said:


> I see redundancy is another one of your traits , I think this question has already been adequately answered to the op,s satisfaction !


You dont even have a clue what ash content is..that's pretty apparent.


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Broken said:


> Ben , they worked fine within the perimeters of the oil technology and engine designs of the time and the tested applications that they were utilized , that was and is my point Bud !


No, it didnt. It actually worked terribly by any measure.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 20, 2019)

Rating and specifications in my view can be thrown out the window on two strokes. Three things happen simultaneously on two strokes that is very difficult to measure exactly. Gas mixed with oil is introduced into engine via carburetor. First the oil need to settle often through small ports on the connecting rod and at the same time also settle around main bearings thus lubricating all the bearings. The bearings are not very sensitive to heat likely less than 300 F. So the easiest items to lubricate are the bearings. Should a high performance oil throughly mix with gas or merely be suspended in the gasoline. The fuel mixture gets pumped into the combustion chamber and ignited. Regardless of many conditions the fuel and oil can not completely oxidize in the combustion chamber or there would be little or very little lubrication for the rings. So oils that burn really clean are not very desirable in two strokes or if the oil again is suspended with out burning might be better. Fully synthetic oils have the ability to experience very high temperatures with out braking down as compared to petroleum based oils, but they the petroleum oils burn more efficiently than synthetic. So the process still seem to have pros for one and cons for another. Thanks


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## RedFir Down (Dec 20, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Is that your saw that you ran personally, or one that you're fixing for a customer or the like?


It was a handheld stihl blower BG56 a guy brought in (99% of the time I only work on saws but I have kept up on his equipment for years so I told him I would look at it).
The manufacture date on the blower was 8/18 and he brought it to me 8/19.
What difference does it make?


----------



## bwalker (Dec 20, 2019)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Rating and specifications in my view can be thrown out the window on two strokes. Three things happen simultaneously on two strokes that is very difficult to measure exactly. Gas mixed with oil is introduced into engine via carburetor. First the oil need to settle often through small ports on the connecting rod and at the same time also settle around main bearings thus lubricating all the bearings. The bearings are not very sensitive to heat likely less than 300 F. So the easiest items to lubricate are the bearings. Should a high performance oil throughly mix with gas or merely be suspended in the gasoline. The fuel mixture gets pumped into the combustion chamber and ignited. Regardless of many conditions the fuel and oil can not completely oxidize in the combustion chamber or there would be little or very little lubrication for the rings. So oils that burn really clean are not very desirable in two strokes or if the oil again is suspended with out burning might be better. Fully synthetic oils have the ability to experience very high temperatures with out braking down as compared to petroleum based oils, but they the petroleum oils burn more efficiently than synthetic. So the process still seem to have pros for one and cons for another. Thanks


For starters pre mixed oil and gasoline is not what lubricates your engine. When the premixed oil and gasoline pass through the carb and enter the engine the vast majority of fuel portion of the mixture flashes into vapour and the oil drops out of suspension coating the cylinder walls, bearings, etc. The piston then descends and pushes the vapour into the combustion chamber where it can be compressed, ignited and do work. The only oil that's in the combustion chamber is the small amount above the piston rings and excess that is forced up through the transfers. This oil must combust cleanly and fully or you end up with all sorts of problems such as exhaust port blockage, fouled spark plugs and stuck pistons rings.
Synthetics like some esters and PIB's are useful because they combust very cleanly, yet maintain excellent film strength on bearings and cylinder walls. In the old days high density mineral base oils or bright stock were used to provide the same sort of film strength, but instead of reaching there critical point and unzippering into the easily combustable components they where made of like synthetics they instead partially combusted and form all kinds of residue. This manifested itself in port blockage, heavy smoke, etc. Castor functioned similar to heavy oils except under high heat it polymerize into ever more complex carbon chains and form a varnish that all but the highest temps will not combust fully. Of course the penalty for this is port blockage, smoke, and heavy deposits on the ring lands which will stick a ring sooner or latter. Additives can be used to mitigate some of the deposit issues of castor's and heavy mineral oils, but they also lead to their own issues such was mettalic deposits on the crown and head that cause pre ignition and plug fouling due to metallics grounding out the spark plug.
So oils that burn very clean are indeed very important and have in fact been the main advancement in two cycle oils over the years. Not only do they provide for less smoke, but they also provided for longer engine life and higher HP over time due to better cleanliness of the ring grooves.
Ratings and specifications are very important because different applications require different formulations. What works well in a outboard motor, works poorly in a chainsaw. Specifications tell a guy which oil is suitable for which application and that set oil meets certain test criteria that pertain to the quality of the lubricant.


----------



## MacAttack (Dec 20, 2019)

RedFir Down said:


> It was a handheld stihl blower BG56 a guy brought in (99% of the time I only work on saws but I have kept up on his equipment for years so I told him I would look at it).
> The manufacture date on the blower was 8/18 and he brought it to me 8/19.
> What difference does it make?



I was curious because I have a very difficult time believing that a chainsaw, leaf blower, anything running such a popular oil, at the correct mixture, operated correctly, without some other inherent issue, would develop that kind of carbon buildup as a direct result of using that particular Stihl oil. 

My guess is the guy is doing something like mixing it 20:1 or more, either by accident or knowingly, for whatever reason. 

Why isn't every user of that oil reporting the same issue?


----------



## RedFir Down (Dec 21, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> I was curious because I have a very difficult time believing that a chainsaw, leaf blower, anything running such a popular oil, at the correct mixture, operated correctly, without some other inherent issue, would develop that kind of carbon buildup as a direct result of using that particular Stihl oil.
> 
> My guess is the guy is doing something like mixing it 20:1 or more, either by accident or knowingly, for whatever reason.
> 
> Why isn't every user of that oil reporting the same issue?


I hate to break it to you but you are wrong.

First off believe what you want to and think what ever you would like.
I have seen this probably a dozen times in the last 10 or so years.

Second, he mixes 1 gallon of ethanol free fuel (gets his fuel the same place I do) to a 1 gallon ultra oil bottle. He got them with a warranty deal.

Lastly why would I waste my time posting false/inaccurate findings? It is what it is, I really dont care.

For the record like I mentioned before I have worked on his equipment for years and he runs several pro grade saws using different oil with the same ratio and fuel and all of them have checked out fine for years and years.


----------



## MacAttack (Dec 21, 2019)

RedFir Down said:


> I hate to break it to you but you are wrong.
> 
> First off believe what you want to and think what ever you would like.
> I have seen this probably a dozen times in the last 10 or so years.
> ...



No need to take offense, i didn't mean any. 

If you've observed this a number of times and are very confident in the user not doing something wrong, then I can believe the oil could cause this. I had a hard time believing it because I've run a lot of 2 strokes for many years using WHATEVER was laying around mixed 32:1, and i also maintained a tree company's fleet of Huskys and Stihls (we exclusively used Husky XP oil), and i never saw an exhaust port that looked that bad. 

I guess I'll stick to Echo oil.


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## Termite (Dec 21, 2019)

This paragraph was taken from the Bel-Ray website. Link https://www.belray.com/2-stroke-lubrication/

Ester based fluids will withstand great amounts of heat and will not burn in the combustion chamber. Since they do not burn, the emissions are clear of soot and ash that are commonly found when using lower grade lubricants. These esters naturally adhere to metal surfaces and create a very tenacious film, so when the lubricant is brought onto the piston, it creates a film and spreads along the surface to protect the entire component. This film is difficult to eliminate, therefore, the engine will remain lubricated through very harsh conditions.

bwalker's comment
The only oil that's in the combustion chamber is the small amount above the piston rings and excess that is forced up through the transfers. This oil must combust cleanly and fully or you end up with all sorts of problems such as exhaust port blockage, fouled spark plugs and stuck pistons rings.

Seems like a contradiction. bwalker, you say the oil combusts Bel-Ray says it does not. You also say only a small amount of oil is above the piston rings. I contend that all the oil in the mix at some point in time is above the piston rings.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> Well my intention is to use the Power Blend at 40:1 in all my 2-cycle tools, everything from trimmers, leaf blowers, and chainsaws ranging from 1961 - current production. I am thinking it would be a good idea?


I should of added for additional clarification . Ashless is also normally recommended in Marine Oil application due to the lower rpm & internal temps that these units work within . Ash additives at lower temps will not burn off during combustion and will leave deposits detrimental to internal engine components and potential for excessive discharge than is admissible to the atmosphere. Low Ash formulated oil in Air Cooled application s of moderate to high rpm and more severe temperature can more readily burn of these deposits & benefit from the ash,s additional lubricity factor . Again I hope this helps and clarifies the proper use of these oil designs within your small engine applications !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

huskihl said:


> Ultra is a great lubricant, like for drill bits and such.
> 
> Not so great when it gets ignited repeatedly


Now that's funny !  .


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Actually for years two cycle oils performed very poorly..
> Your assertions on castor and synthetics are also incorrect..


Poorly compared within todays Standards perhaps if thats your contention . As for Ester based Premium Syn. and Castor oils not having better cling performance when used within Alcohol based fuels your absolutely wrong . As I stated initially I successfully used Castor based Klotz BC172 racing oil blended with Methanol @ either 16:1 or 20:1 in the early 70,s Snowmobile Racing Competition . The only plant base mineral oil that would provide the cylinder wash protection and anti galling protection that this application involved . Was it dirty and necessitate routine carbon fouling tear downs , Hell Yeah ! Also have tested same oils in Hotsaw usage . Not testimonial or recommendation for your daily driver or Woodsaw !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .


Andre , just curious as to what had changed from last week when you actually " liked " this response . You seem a little inconsistent . Although CR & Ben cannot understand transferring the rational of the merits of an Automotive or Commercial Truck Fleet Oil Group Rating to a 2 Cycle Oil Group Rating for Clarification of various operating situations , I expected better from you !


----------



## Ted Jenkins (Dec 21, 2019)

bwalker said:


> For starters pre mixed oil and gasoline is not what lubricates your engine. When the premixed oil and gasoline pass through the carb and enter the engine the vast majority of fuel portion of the mixture flashes into vapour and the oil drops out of suspension coating the cylinder walls, bearings, etc. The piston then descends and pushes the vapour into the combustion chamber where it can be compressed, ignited and do work. The only oil that's in the combustion chamber is the small amount above the piston rings and excess that is forced up through the transfers. This oil must combust cleanly and fully or you end up with all sorts of problems such as exhaust port blockage, fouled spark plugs and stuck pistons rings.
> Synthetics like some esters and PIB's are useful because they combust very cleanly, yet maintain excellent film strength on bearings and cylinder walls. In the old days high density mineral base oils or bright stock were used to provide the same sort of film strength, but instead of reaching there critical point and unzippering into the easily combustable components they where made of like synthetics they instead partially combusted and form all kinds of residue. This manifested itself in port blockage, heavy smoke, etc. Castor functioned similar to heavy oils except under high heat it polymerize into ever more complex carbon chains and form a varnish that all but the highest temps will not combust fully. Of course the penalty for this is port blockage, smoke, and heavy deposits on the ring lands which will stick a ring sooner or latter. Additives can be used to mitigate some of the deposit issues of castor's and heavy mineral oils, but they also lead to their own issues such was mettalic deposits on the crown and head that cause pre ignition and plug fouling due to metallics grounding out the spark plug.
> So oils that burn very clean are indeed very important and have in fact been the main advancement in two cycle oils over the years. Not only do they provide for less smoke, but they also provided for longer engine life and higher HP over time due to better cleanliness of the ring grooves.
> Ratings and specifications are very important because different applications require different formulations. What works well in a outboard motor, works poorly in a chainsaw. Specifications tell a guy which oil is suitable for which application and that set oil meets certain test criteria that pertain to the quality of the lubricant.



I have torn down hundreds or perhaps a thousand or so and one thing became clear that certain oils did not matter much over others. I concluded like I said there are pros and cons. That does not mean that all specifications is with out value. Just my take. Thanks


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

RedFir Down said:


> Here is what stihl Ultra looks like.
> Look at the bottom of the ring land and notice the wear.
> It had 90 PSI of compression and would not run (obviously). Low hour machine too.
> 
> ...


Red , I have neighbours that use Ultra in their saws for over 100 hrs no issues since they use Non E-fuel efuel as do I . On the other hand I have decarboned numerous saws and blowers and trimmers with these same issues using Synthetic Ultra and numerous other Mineral oils with Ethanol Fuel . My contention is the Oil may not be the basic problem ? In any case Thanks for the input Bud !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> No offence taken Andre !


 Andre , further yes I am quite aware of of the additives Eg. acidic oxidizing & deposit inhibitors (Calcium & Magnesium Phenate chemicals) that combustion produce , these products are even used within today s Diesel Supercharger specific oils , former Diesel Mechanic remember ? Nothing dirtier than a Detroit Diesel . Also aware of the of the necessity of dispersant / sucfactant additives for moisture entrainment caused from thermal cycles of operation and storage of these small engine units . As I have previously indicated have further experience within Heavy Industrial Steam Driven Turbines , Multi Phase Compressors and Blowers which are factually the most extreme oil usage you will experience , South of Jet Engines friend ! P.S. I believe my former chemical analysis of Calcium Carbonate "Typo" would be better utilized for Acid Reflux control that JWalker may generate lmao  .


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I have torn down hundreds or perhaps a thousand or so and one thing became clear that certain oils did not matter much over others. I concluded like I said there are pros and cons. That does not mean that all specifications is with out value. Just my take. Thanks


Well said Ted , especially within the realm of the demands of rudimentary 2 cycle engines , hence the ability for them to run on any oil from fruit oil to used diesel oil and kerosene blend lol. P.S. Sorry Ted see you indicated the fuel use was " Non " ethanol based my bad ! As I stated have friends that use ultra with no issues with their saws , even POS Poulans . I personally do not purchase Stihl Products lol.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

CR888 said:


> Its either certified or its NOT. Clearly you got taken.


You would rather I spend over $30 for Motul 800 just to get the warm and fuzzy feeling Certification gets you ? Sabre performs as well in the real world as do many other Non Jasco FD rated oils . I have torn down numerous units ran on Sabre to validate. Don,t require any boy from the land of the Rising Sun developing Criteria and Standards & Proceedures to validate my selection Mate !


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 21, 2019)

The reason Klotz oils like Original techniplate "which has no castor oil in it" is used with alcohol and nitro is simple, it will mix with throes fuels, it has nothing to do with anything else. I'm done with this absurd thread, some are clearly lonely and like to talk in circles just to hear themselves. Get a life move on. 

Merry Christmas.


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

CR888 said:


> Oh really.....you just worked that out. Well done! Keep digesting the look aid.


Hey Mate I admitted the oversight , give it a rest before I have to force feed you some Kangaroo Dung ....Cheers !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> The reason Klotz oils like Original techniplate "which has no castor oil in it" is used with alcohol and nitro is simple, it will mix with throes fuels, it has nothing to do with anything else. I'm done with this absurd thread, some are clearly lonely and like to talk in circles just to hear themselves. Get a life move on.
> 
> Merry Christmas.


Before you take your soiled diapers and run BC172 was Castor bean oil , noted for its extreme temperature cling characteristics , limited availibility . Never available to the general public has not been available anywhere since the 70s . What are you accreditations , said nothing of commercial grade Technicplate ! Yes of course it mixed well ....seriously ? Happy New Yr !


----------



## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry my friend, Ben and I haven't always seen eye to eye one everything, but everything he's said in response to your posts is correct. You're out of your knowledge depth, some of the things you've said do not even have relevance when discussing air cooled two cycle engines, the rest is just completely incorrect information.





Andyshine77 said:


> That makes no sense, as the certification is universal in all countries, JASO is actually a Japanese certification. The mention of a certification does not mean it is actually certified, it has to have the emblem along with the certification number, otherwise it is nothing more than marketing.[emoji111]
> 
> Amsoil Saber is in fact an excellent product nonetheless.


I rather doubt Certification is Universal , since ISO . Compliance within Standards and Proceedures are still lacking . I will have to check out my old container of Redmax !


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> Before you take your soiled diapers and run BC172 was Castor bean oil , noted for its extreme temperature cling characteristics , limited availibility . Never available to the general public has not been available anywhere since the 70s . What are you accreditations , said nothing of commercial grade Technicplate ! Yes of course it mixed well ....seriously ? Happy New Yr !



How did you know I wear diapers.[emoji15] I didn't respond to your PM because it made no sense, just like everything you've said the past few days. I get it your trying to trigger people for fun, that's cool, not much to do when it gets cold up north I suppose, so you type away in you're dungeon, while eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew Code Red, hoping for a response form someone who actually tries to contribute actual information. Guys like yourself are a dime a dozen, guess you didn't get enough attention as a child, so you still behave like one. You're at least entertaining I'll give you that, every time this thread pops up I get a chuckle.

I believe Bob's correct, social media will be the death of reason. 

So theirs you're reaction, have fun who ever you really are.[emoji111]


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## BlacknTan (Dec 21, 2019)

I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.

What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.

It seems to me that all oils today are purpose built. Blended for a specific application, so, I don't understand why a lubricant designed for a dirtbike, outboard motor, or any other 2 stroke application would be right for a chainsaw? I well could be wrong, but i'd like to hear some thoughts..

Second, I believe the big saw manufacturers farm out the manufacture of their oils to third party vendors, or blenders. Who decides on the blend, the big manufacturer, or the blenders themselves? And who possesses the knowledge to design for each application?

People who know always tell me not to "overthink it," and that worked for awhile, but I think we'd all like to feed our saws the best lubricant available. and I'm once again questioning my decisions.. I was dumb and happy.... Maybe I should just stay that way?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 21, 2019)

Outboard oil shouldn't be used in saws. Some oils are intended for use with oil injection systems only, these oils are often very thin and the engines are often water cooled. Some oils will work in both premix and injector applications.

Other than that most premix oils of a high quality will work just fine in a chainsaw. The manufacturer ask companies to make them an oil with the basic approval ratings, they test the oil to make sure it does what it needs to, and then go with the lowest bidder. Sometimes this doesn't work out and a formula change is required or a different manufacturer is used. Echo Powerblend has been produced by at least two manufacturers I can remember. Cost is the main concern, as long as the oil provides a reasonable service life, the least expensive product is chosen. Saws run under little stress compared to a race bike making crazy power and being ran at full throttle the whole time, so generally speaking bike oils are far superior in quality, although they're exceptions. 

In a normal work saw you do need to choose the product for the application, some of the race oils are, in a sense too good and tend to not burn that well under normal operation. But at that same time may be perfect if you're going to mill with the saw. some racing oils attract moisture and have no additives to protect against corrosion. But in general any premix for air cooled engines is going to work in a saw, although one should select the best oil for the intended use. Even racers will use different oils depending on the track.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> How did you know I wear diapers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Andre , Sorry no offence intended I was joking about the diapers , however I requested you numerous times to simply advise of certain specific detail s only to receive more disparaging remarks! Entertaining ? Your Welcome Bud !



BlacknTan said:


> I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.
> 
> What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.
> 
> ...





BlacknTan said:


> I know little about mix oil. I'd like to know more so I could pick the best oil for my own application.
> 
> What I'm asking here are honest questions.. not meant to start a ruckus of get anyone upset.. Honest, for my own education.
> 
> ...


 Black , I believe you are mostly correct in task specific oils today . However there are still several oils that allow multi tasking of oils within numerous small engine applications . Good Post Bud !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Outboard oil shouldn't be use in saws. Some oils are intended for use with oil injection systems only, these oils are often very thin and the engines are often water cooled. Some oils will work in both premix and injector applications.
> 
> Other than that most premix oils of a high quality will work just fine in a chainsaw. The manufacturer ask companies to make them an oil with the basic approval ratings, they test the oil to make sure it does what it needs to, and then go with the lowest bidder. Sometimes this doesn't work out and a formula change is required or a different manufacturer is used. Echo Powerblend has been produced by at least to manufacturers I can remember. Cost is the main concern, as long as the oil provides a reasonable service life, the least expensive product is chosen. Saws run under little stress compared to a race bike making crazy power and being ran at full throttle the whole time, so generally speaking bike oils are far superior in quality, although they're exceptions.
> 
> In a normal work saw you do need to choose the product for the application, some of the race oils are in a sense too good, and tend to not burn that well under normal operation. But at that same time may be perfect if you're going to mill with the saw. some racing oils attract moisture and have no additives to protect against corrosion. But in general any premix for air cooled engines is going to work in a saw, although one should be select the best oil for the intended use. Even racers will use different oils depending on the track.


Agree with everything Andre has stated . I would like to add that power valves on water craft and more specifically deep powder snowmachines with same exhaust valving and subjected to extreme thermal cycle engine applications and engine Torque loading require their specific oil group usage only also . P.S. Liquid Cooling is the appropriate terminology , however was impressed with your knowledge of the hydroscopic potential of ester based synthetics , another additive that is routinely now added Bud , Good Stuff !  .


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> Agree with everything Andre has stated . I would like to add that power valves on water craft and more specifically deep powder snowmachines with same exhaust valving and subjected to extreme thermal cycle engine applications and engine Torque loading require their specific oil group usage only also !


 Very interesting information as to the bidder involvement via a manufacturer for the blending of oil to engine specification , where did you acquire this education Andre ?


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

What is the Price throughout the US. for Motul -700 & 800T currently , just curious !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

bwalker said:


> And you cant tell if it is equivalent without running the tests, which Scamsoil hasnt.


I would think Ben due diligence would indicate they would handle this testing in-house or via a competent consulting agent , No ? I saw enough Kawaski Engine Ltd Dyno testing back in Grand Rapids in the late 70,s during my Snowmobile Racing days . Not all that hard to analysis nox emissions lol.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 21, 2019)

Termite said:


> This paragraph was taken from the Bel-Ray website. Link https://www.belray.com/2-stroke-lubrication/
> 
> Ester based fluids will withstand great amounts of heat and will not burn in the combustion chamber. Since they do not burn, the emissions are clear of soot and ash that are commonly found when using lower grade lubricants. These esters naturally adhere to metal surfaces and create a very tenacious film, so when the lubricant is brought onto the piston, it creates a film and spreads along the surface to protect the entire component. This film is difficult to eliminate, therefore, the engine will remain lubricated through very harsh conditions.
> 
> ...


I feel for you Termite , however Ben has gone to the trouble of creating a rather concise explanation of the combustion process and the latent energy or btu,s more precisely that ensure efficient vaporization of a 2 cycle fuel charge . I believe we all realize that the actual fuel is a cooling effect agent . Actually 80 % fuel approx 20% combustion air , since a engine is a air pump primarily . Unfortunately the vaporization of fuel & oil due to density are vastly different therefore residual oil remains as the fuel flashes off to as Ben has advised , important internal engine components to provide the necessary lubricity ( I can hear Andre Chuckling ) . This is where we differ I believe ? Ben & I have stated that ester based synthetics are far superior within providing this lubricity within the engine at lower viscosity to provide maximum protection with no or minimal carbon forming deposit potential , due to their formulated homogenous additives . However I agree with you also in principle , that numerous other mineral based oils are more than adequate for extended saw usage applications especially Group II & III oils . There are also as previous mentioned by another forum member metallurgical structural changes as to Nikisil cylinders vs former Chrome Plated and tighter piston to cyl. Specs which effect heat transfer coefficient changes that have required these oil upgrades , combined with more stringent EPA guidelines . Sorry for the lengthy dissertation , actually can,t compare to Ben in that category , since i,an not a former Chemical Engineer as Previously advised ....Peeps !


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## huskihl (Dec 21, 2019)

tl;dr


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## bwalker (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> I would think Ben due diligence would indicate they would handle this testing in-house or via a competent consulting agent , No ? I saw enough Kawaski Engine Ltd Dyno testing back in Grand Rapids in the late 70,s during my Snowmobile Racing days . Not all that hard to analysis nox emissions lol.


And how would you know?
And wtf does NOX have to do with anything?


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## bwalker (Dec 21, 2019)

Termite said:


> This paragraph was taken from the Bel-Ray website. Link https://www.belray.com/2-stroke-lubrication/
> 
> Ester based fluids will withstand great amounts of heat and will not burn in the combustion chamber. Since they do not burn, the emissions are clear of soot and ash that are commonly found when using lower grade lubricants. These esters naturally adhere to metal surfaces and create a very tenacious film, so when the lubricant is brought onto the piston, it creates a film and spreads along the surface to protect the entire component. This film is difficult to eliminate, therefore, the engine will remain lubricated through very harsh conditions.
> 
> ...


I am sure Belray oil doent combust. Thats why its dirty junk. That's not to say modern ester formulations are not designed to combust. Indeed they are.


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## bwalker (Dec 21, 2019)

Broken said:


> Poorly compared within todays Standards perhaps if thats your contention . As for Ester based Premium Syn. and Castor oils not having better cling performance when used within Alcohol based fuels your absolutely wrong . As I stated initially I successfully used Castor based Klotz BC172 racing oil blended with Methanol @ either 16:1 or 20:1 in the early 70,s Snowmobile Racing Competition . The only plant base mineral oil that would provide the cylinder wash protection and anti galling protection that this application involved . Was it dirty and necessitate routine carbon fouling tear downs , Hell Yeah ! Also have tested same oils in Hotsaw usage . Not testimonial or recommendation for your daily driver or Woodsaw !


You are comparing the ability of castors and some esters to mix with ethanol or methanol fuel with the ability of the same oils to resist being wiped off the cylinder walls by the solvency of both alcohols.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> And how would you know?
> And wtf does NOX have to do with anything?


Not sure Ben , thus the ? within 2cycle inhouse testing . I would presume that any million dollar company would protect them selves from libel suits. As for Nox testing sorry , this testing is more prevalent within Diesel Engines that can produce extreme temps over 1300 Deg . F and require intercoolers . Much as auto,s utilize EGR systems . Poly Aromatic Hydrocarbon (PAH) or more precisely Poly Cyclic hydrocarbon (PCH) testing may be more accurate within 2 cycle emission testing Protocals ? Not sure not a Chemical Engineer or Emissions Anaylist for the 2 cycle small engine Industry , however I do have 1 st hand real world experience within the Integrated Steelmaking Process. As to where our multiple Industrial 10 kilowatt Package Boilers were heavy producers of Nox emissions due to their fossil fuel dependence of Heavy C fuel blended with Natural Gas Injection . Abatement equipment were normally rather prohibitive !


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

The point is you don't know. You have to trust the company. Given Amsoils long history of deceptive marketing bogus tests, and bogus claims Indont trust anything they say.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> You are comparing the ability of castors and some esters to mix with ethanol or methanol fuel with the ability of the same oils to resist being wiped off the cylinder walls by the solvency of both alcohols.


well that would be my assertion Ben , they mixed rather well for the technology castor allowed at relative ambient temps and were quite stubborn to remove from cylinder walls " cling " under extreme temps . I recall the gunk coating all top end components including the lower crankshaft and bearing assemblies during decarbonizing tear downs , which I feel is the same integrity premium ester class syn Group III , IV & V oil provide within 10% Ehanol fuel usage today .


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

Think for a minute what you are asserting. If said oils mixed completely in a solvent like alcohol wouldnt it stand to reason that the same solvent would indeed wash them of the cylinder walls?


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> The point is you don't know. You have tontesutbthe company. Given Amsoils long history of deceptive marketing bogus tests, and bogus claims Indont trust anything they say.


Well all I can say is I trust you call on that . How say you on my 10 yrs of non incident issues with Amsoil Sabre on various relatively modern former saws including Stihl MS 260 , 360 , 660 . Husky 288 xp , 357 xp & Vintage Pioneers you are already aware of and my newer Husky 576 xp , 243 xp , 346 xp & current new Dolmar 5105 H all fueled with Non Efuel ?


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

Broken said:


> Well all I can say is I trust you call on that . How say you on my 10 yrs of non incident issues with Amsoil Sabre on Various a Modern saws including Stihl MS 260 , 360 , 660 . Husky 288 xp , 357 xp Vintage Pioneers you are already aware of and my newer Husky 576 xp , 243 xp & current brand new Dollar 5105 H all fueled with Non Efuel ?


Maybe it's great oil. Maybe you got lucky. Maybe you havent accumulated enough hours to tell.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Think for a minute what you are asserting. If said oils mixed completely in a solvent like alcohol wouldnt it stand to reason that the same solvent would indeed wash them of the cylinder walls?


Yes , it does sound bizarre when you mention it like that , however it worked for the short duration racing application then in competition . Perhaps my old age is catching up with me on the Castor situation , for other than extreme event usage . I think you have converted me Bro , off to Bed for this old-timer , thanks for the patience and enlightenment !


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

Broken said:


> Yes , it does sound bizarre when you mention it like that , however it worked for the short duration racing application then in competition . Perhaps my old age is catching up with me on the Castor situation , for other than extreme event usage . I think you have converted me Bro !


Ethanol is naturally a pretty powerful solvent and it will wash any oil of cylinder walls. At 10% as is blended in most gasoline it isnt a catastrophic issue. When using it at 100% it can be, which is why guys that run ethanol and methanol use oils that are ester or castor based that are designed specifically for alcohols and they also tend to run much higher concentrations of oil as well.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Ethanol is naturally a pretty powerful solvent and it will wash any oil of cylinder walls. At 10% as is blended in most gasoline it isnt a catastrophic issue. When using it at 100% it can be, which is why guys that run ethanol and methanol use oils that are ester or castor based that are designed specifically for alcohols and they also tend to run much higher concentrations of oil as well.


well yeah I mixed the caster at 16:1 normally back in the day , prohibitive today and counter productive and a definite step backwards as you have indicated Cudo,s Bud !


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 22, 2019)

16:1 is still common in racing. I have my own blend now I use with either Klotz original techniplate, or super techniplate, 927 would work as well. Even with the right oil some of these concoctions will still fall out of suspension quickly, only good for a few second run obviously.

As Ben explained it was about the oils ability to mix with the fuel. Gasoline is a strong solvent in it's own right and can wash the cylinder walls down too.


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> 16:1 is still common in racing. I have my own blend now I use with either Klotz original techniplate, or super techniplate, 927 would work as well. Even with the right oil some of these concoctions will still fall out of suspension quickly, only good for a few second run obviously.
> 
> As Ben explained it was about the oils ability to mix with the fuel. Gasoline is a strong solvent in it's own right and can wash the cylinder walls down too.


As it pertains to solvency the differance between gasoline and ethanol is the fact that gasoline vaporizes at much lower temps than ethanol. Thus with straight gas and a warm engine there is very little liquid present to wash oil off wear surfaces. It's for this reason that if you tore a motor down immediately after you shut it off you would find no appreciable amount of gasoline in the crankcase.


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

FWIW I use supertechniplate and 927 in certain applications. A chainsaw isnt one of them. Even in applications that benifit from castor there are real and apparent trade offs that you have to deal with.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> As it pertains to solvency the differance between gasoline and ethanol is the fact that gasoline vaporizes at much lower temps than ethanol. Thus with straight gas and a warm engine there is very little liquid present to wash oil off wear surfaces. It's for this reason that if you tore a motor down immediately after you shut it off you would find no appreciable amount of gasoline in the crankcase.


Correct, I understand that. When you try and start an engine by squirting fuel down the carburetor, I always use mixed fuel, to prevent the possibility of washing down the cylinder walls. Which is the main scenario I was referring to.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> FWIW I use supertechniplate and 927 in certain applications. A chainsaw isnt one of them. Even in applications that benifit from castor there are real and apparent trade offs that you have to deal with.


Yes only for cookie cutting. Ran ST for a few tanks in a work saw once just as a test, made a mess, as expected.


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## bwalker (Dec 22, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes only for cookie cutting. Ran ST for a few tanks in a work saw once just as a test, made a mess, as expected.


FWIW it does tend to burn a bit cleaner in a liquid cooled bike motor. The higher compression ratio and cooler piston temps is the reason why I believe.
I did run a gallon and a half of leftover ST mixed at 32:1 in my Redmax 8000 backpack blower. I was using the blower to burn slash from a lot clearing job I was doing. Basically I would start a fire and run the back back blower wide open to help burn up the green, wet and dirty stumps and limbs while I fed the pile with fresh material. Worked pretty good. However, I was appalled when I inspected the piston crown through the plug hole afterwards. I ended up pully the muffler and found the entire piston skirt had very heavy varnish. It took several years of running on K2 and several treatments of mercury marine power tune to remove 90% of it.


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## MacAttack (Dec 22, 2019)

bwalker said:


> FWIW I use supertechniplate and 927 in certain applications. A chainsaw isnt one of them. Even in applications that benifit from castor there are real and apparent trade offs that you have to deal with.



I've used Klotz Techniplate in my snowmobile (it's an old Polaris 700 triple cylinder) for years and it seems to be good oil, engine is still tight.

What do you run in your saws?


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## Marshy (Dec 22, 2019)




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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

Broken said:


> Well all I can say is I trust you call on that . How say you on my 10 yrs of non incident issues with Amsoil Sabre on various relatively modern former saws including Stihl MS 260 , 360 , 660 . Husky 288 xp , 357 xp & Vintage Pioneers you are already aware of and my newer Husky 576 xp , 243 xp , 346 xp & current new Dolmar 5105 H all fueled with Non Efuel ?


Actually small white lie as to Ehanol usage with the Pioneers , with the Chrome plated bores any oil washes off more readily . I run 40:1 ratio with them since their almost as old as your truly . They have been rather bullet proof normal exhaust cleaning on both every few yrs and a head gasket replacement on the P-20 in the 80,s and a primer replacement on the 11:60 and normal rim sprocket change outs b&c , filters etc. As to the usage hrs Ben well over the 500 mark estimate . These were my 1st saws in my teens bud . I cut approx 40 cord annually back then on our homestead of mixed Hard Rock Maple , Mountain Ash , Ironwood and Silver Birch & Cedar . For sentimental reasons I still fire up the Old Girls annually , however with no chain brakes or kick back guards at my age not lot of cutting for either of us !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

huskihl said:


> tl;dr


Do all you Michiganders utilize Acronym,s or Beta Code,s ? tl;dr ?? lol.


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## huskihl (Dec 22, 2019)

Broken said:


> Do all you Michiganders utilize Acronym,s or Beta Code,s ? tl;dr ?? lol.


Only the ones with short attention spans


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

huskihl said:


> Only the ones with short attention spans


Baha , that's a good one , just spit out my coffee Kevin ! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> 16:1 is still common in racing. I have my own blend now I use with either Klotz original techniplate, or super techniplate, 927 would work as well. Even with the right oil some of these concoctions will still fall out of suspension quickly, only good for a few second run obviously.
> 
> As Ben explained it was about the oils ability to mix with the fuel. Gasoline is a strong solvent in it's own right and can wash the cylinder walls down too.





Andyshine77 said:


> Correct, I understand that. When you try and start an engine by squirting fuel down the carburetor, I always use mixed fuel, to prevent the possibility of washing down the cylinder walls. Which is the main scenario I was referring to.


Same reason you use carb cleaner over ether based quick start fluids on small trimmers or blowers , although there are some quick start ether sprays that have lubricity additives . Old diesels with pup engines had a cold start ether injection system , however cyl.wall wash from ether solvency was not a concern , starting in sub zero temps was ! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 22, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> 16:1 is still common in racing. I have my own blend now I use with either Klotz original techniplate, or super techniplate, 927 would work as well. Even with the right oil some of these concoctions will still fall out of suspension quickly, only good for a few second run obviously.
> 
> As Ben explained it was about the oils ability to mix with the fuel. Gasoline is a strong solvent in it's own right and can wash the cylinder walls down too.


I agree Andre as to caster usage duration . The Competition I was referring to , that I utilized BC 172 with Methanol was Snowmobile Drag Racing via very well Modified Sleds . Eg. 650 Free Air Arctic Cat Exterminator in the early 70,s to Liquid Colexd 440 Mercury S/T & Yamaha 440 SRX in the later 70, s . Yes this 30% caster blended oil would fall out of suspension nessitating mixing and storing it in the heated trailer when not in use . Any of you Michiganders involved in MISRA will recall some of these world class racers that I eventually raced for and at times against . I eventually began running Oval & Cross Country as an Independent and then Semi Professional with backing from Polaris (Leroy Linblad) Sno-Jet (Jim Adema) until his death @ Ironwood Mich. In 75 . Then finally Mercury (Brad Hulings) my expertise was clutching and track / suspension prep . I learnt a lot from Jim on engines when I was running Thunder Jets , and suspension / track prep from Leroy may he rest in peace while running RXL,s both engineers and Brad who was a little younger than me ( both wet behind the ears still ) then and still involved in the trade today in Design . I successfully competed in the Soo 1-500 4 times also the TC-250 twice and then Sno Pro @ Ironwood Mich 3 times along with Series Championship @ Eagle River Wisconsin and the International World Championship Kawatha Cup in Peterbourough Ont . In the Spring and Summer Ran moto-cross with 350 Kawasaki & later 400 Can-Ams . I officially retired from competitive racing in 1989 at age 35 after 18 yrs to pursue my 1st love , Race Sled Prep and Design . Anyhow , yes castor has its limitations I only through it out there for consideration of its merits under certain circumstances since it was successful for me . P.S. For the record the oil I utilized regularly back then on Ovals & X-C Circuit was 1 st generation Quaker State Proprietary Race Blend or Opti-2 a very advanced oil product in the 70 s never used Techniplate ever actually . Seems like a life time ago , actually it pretty well was lol. Thanks for the Conversation , have to fire up the woodstove in the garage friends !


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## Dave86 (Dec 22, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> It's really impossible to know for sure. Been at a very large Stihl dealership for over 40 years as a mechanic.
> Seen quite a bit over the years, but never an internal engine failure that could be directly linked to the use of Stihl HP.
> It's a coventional oil. Very reasonably priced.
> Mixing oil at the wrong ratio, as testing has shown, might cancel any advantages that a so called " Premium "oil can offer.
> ...


What maintenance problems are the main culprits?


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

MacAttack said:


> I've used Klotz Techniplate in my snowmobile (it's an old Polaris 700 triple cylinder) for years and it seems to be good oil, engine is still tight.
> 
> What do you run in your saws?


Super Techniplate is different than Techniplate. It is formulated with 10% castor.
I ran mostly Honda HP2 in my O P E this year, but I am down to 1 saw and only use it a few times a year since I moved to Montana. Most of my mixed gas usage in in my BP blower, snowblower and trimmer now.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Dave86 said:


> What maintenance problems are the main culprits?


Improper fuel to oil ratios or fuel to air come to mind immediately , actually as Stihl86 attributes a lack of oil not quality kills . Poor air filter maintenance , goes along way to over rich engine fuel condition with blend oil mixture going along for the ride , causes excessive oil and carbon deposits that can contribute to preignition , localized piston to cylinder head hot spots , ring fouling etc . All part of the general mtce. circle , back in the day with inferior or conventional dino oils routine 100 hr decarbonizing was part of general mtce criteria . Thank God for the new Generation Ester ( syn ) based oils of today !


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> Improper fuel to oil ratios or fuel to air come to mind immediately , along with poor air filter maintenance , goes along way to over rich engine fuel condition with blend oil mixture going along for the ride cause excessive oil and carbon deposits that can contribute to preignition , localized piston to cylinder got spots , ring fouling etc . All part of the general mtce. circle , back in the day with inferior or conventional dino oils routine 100 he destabilizing was part of general nice criteria . Thank God for the new Generation Ester ( syn ) based oils of today !


Most often rich air to fuel ratios result in very clean engines with very little carbon buildup. The mufflers and spark screens do get gunked up. Higher quantity oil ratios also tends to make engines cleaner as you simply have much more detergents passing through the engine.
And the vast majority of modern two cycle oils are not nester based. I would guess that 80-90% of the JASO/ISO GD oils are do not contain ester. This is for good reason.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

stihl86 said:


> If you use Stihl brand saws, they already do. If you run those silly toys from that country better known for cheese, good luck.
> Some guys swear by Ultra. Most swear at the price. If you feel it works better than HP, by all means, use it.
> In a saw, I think the orange bottle is more than sufficient.
> Stihl came out with Ultra, mainly because of their 4 Mix engines.
> ...


No , apparently only Ultra carbons up a saw lol.


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> No , apparently only Ultra carbons up a saw lol.


Ultra was designed as a band aid fix for the poorly design 4-mix line of engines. To solve valve deposit issues they where having from burning air cooled low ash two cycle oil in a four stroke motor. They decided it would be a great idea to go with an ashless additive chemistry oil aka marine oil. This would have been fine had they not also decided to market said oil to the two stroke user as well. Ashless oils have never worked in a 2 cycle air cooled or high bmep liquid cooled 2 motor despite plenty of attempts. The end result was very predictable.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Ultra was designed as a band aid fix for the poorly design 4-mix line of engines. To solve valve deposit issues they where having from burning air cooled low ash two cycle oil in a four stroke motor. They decided it would be a great idea to go with an ashless additive chemistry oil aka marine oil. This would have been fine had they not also decided to market said oil to the two stroke user as well. Ashless oils have never worked in a 2 cycle air cooled or high bmep liquid cooled 2 motor despite plenty of attempts. The end result was very predictable.


Yepper !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Super Techniplate is different than Techniplate. It is formulated with 10% castor.
> I ran mostly Honda HP2 in my O P E this year, but I am down to 1 saw and only use it a few times a year since I moved to Montana. Most of my mixed gas usage in in my BP blower, snowblower and trimmer now.


Semi or blended Synthetic rated oil with what they advertise 20% Benol caster Ben . P.S. in a 2 cycle Toro snowblower ?


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

*R*


bwalker said:


> Most often rich air to fuel ratios result in very clean engines with very little carbon buildup. The mufflers and spark screens do get gunked up. Higher quantity oil ratios also tends to make engines cleaner as you simply have much more detergents passing through the engine.






bwalker said:


> And the vast majority of modern two cycle oils are not nester based. I would guess that 80-90% of the JASO/ISO GD oils are do not contain ester. This is for good reason.


 Yes , "Thank God for today's modern Full Synthetic or ester oils" would be more precise . Yes , more oil or less oil , as Harley -T suggests , which does the most damage when neglected maintenance causes a restricted air filter what says you Ben ?


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> Semi or blended Synthetic. rated oil with what they advertise 20% Benol caster Ben . P.S. in a 2 cycle Toro snowblower ?


Your right 20% castor. Brain fart on my part.
Yes, 2 cycle Toro.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

bwalker said:


> Your right 20% castor. Brain fart on my part.
> Yes, 2 cycle Toro.


No problem partner , To error is human to forgive Devine us Irish always say , just step away from the Guinness !


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> What is the Price throughout the US. for Motul -700 & 800T currently , just curious !


About what I thought , around $ 35 / litre here in the Great White North , for this ester synthetic 800 T oil not cheap ! 700 $ 25 / litre pricing . The Maxima 927 does not appear all that special more like original Techniplate in comparison . It would appear Sabre shall remain my go to oil still at these price points !


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2019)

927 is a Castor synthetic blend like Klotz super techniplate, it's an awesome product in certain applications, I probably prefer it over the Klotz.


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> 927 is a Castor synthetic blend like Klotz super techniplate, it's an awesome product in certain applications, I probably prefer it over the Klotz.


927 has alot more castor in it than Klotz, but I also have the same opinion as you in that I think it's a much better product than ST. In fact Maxima makes better products than Klotz, period as far as I am concerned. Klotz sure does smell nice though.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> 927 is a Castor synthetic blend like Klotz super techniplate, it's an awesome product in certain applications, I probably prefer it over the Klotz.


Yeah but not all that good in my current overall applications Andre . Perhaps if it was available during my snowmobile or moto and enduro racing days . If I change from Sabre it would be to a ester based syn or full syn . Just can,t get my head around the elevated pricing !


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> Yeah but not all that good in my current overall applications Andre . Perhaps if it was available during my snowmobile or no to racing days . If I change from Sabre it would be to a ester based syn or full syn . Just can,t get my head around the elevated pricing !


Sabre costs more than something like Honda Hp2, Maxima K2 or Yam 2R here. All of those three are great oils.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2019)

Broken said:


> Yeah but not all that good in my current overall applications Andre . Perhaps if it was available during my snowmobile or no to racing days . If I change from Sabre it would be to a ester based syn or full syn . Just can,t get my head around the elevated pricing !


It's used when making racing fuel mostly, I wouldn't use it in a normal saw, as it would leave hard deposit, although not on the level of ST.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Never say never ! I just found the BC172 castor I used back in the 70,s . Its advertised as twice the film strength of current premium casters . The old BC was a 30% caster blended oil . Klotz Benol is the current generic name . Unfortunately all these Caster blends are more suited to snowmobile and motorcycle racing or high performance requirement than air cooled saws as we have agreed other than perhaps milling applications , shame price point is attractive too !


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2019)

bwalker said:


> 927 has alot more castor in it than Klotz, but I also have the same opinion as you in that I think it's a much better product than ST. In fact Maxima makes better products than Klotz, period as far as I am concerned. Klotz sure does smell nice though.


Original techniplate is probably the only Klotz oil I would consider running in a normal saw, well R50 worked well for enough, crazy good film strength. Bad part about ST is the fact it's a moisture magnet, although many have ran it without issue.


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> It used when making racing fuel mostly, I wouldn't use it in a normal saw, as it would leave hard deposit, although not on the level of ST.


Yeah limited to my old Sachs or Rotax hot saw perhaps that are long gone lol .


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## North by Northwest (Dec 23, 2019)

Well Thanks gents for the brainstorming sessions , its been a slice . I, 'll check out the K-2 Specs Ben for consideration as a multi duty substitute to Sabre within my current 2 cycle applications . May you all have a very Merry Xmas and a Enjoyable New Yr. Cheers !


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

Andyshine77 said:


> Original techniplate is probably the only Klotz oil I would consider running in a normal saw, well R50 worked well for enough, crazy good film strength. Bad part about ST is the fact it's a moisture magnet, although many have ran it without issue.


Esters and castor both attract moisture like crazy. Some are worse than others. I have had certain esters turn carb brass black with in a week. The Banshee I currently own had its lower end corroded to failure from being stored with ST by the previous owner.


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## full chizel (Dec 23, 2019)

What about Maxima Super M? Its a synthetic blend and cheaper that K2.

How does it compare to other blends like 2R?


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## bwalker (Dec 23, 2019)

full chizel said:


> What about Maxima Super M? Its a synthetic blend and cheaper that K2.
> 
> How does it compare to other blends like 2R?


It's a quality product too and a decent choice for a chainsaw.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 23, 2019)

Super M is pretty much just as good as K2 just has less synthetic in the blend.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 23, 2019)

full chizel said:


> What about Maxima Super M? Its a synthetic blend and cheaper that K2.
> How does it compare to other blends like 2R?



Of all the oils on the market Super M is the go to oil for me. I built an immense amount of engines using super M during my dirt bike days I would not say there are not good oils out there, but several shops got me into the Maxima lines. When I had to pay for my own oil I still ordered it for dirt bikes. When I was building snow mobile motors in the seventies I used a lot of formulas depending on ratio of alcohol. I still believe that set up is far more critical than brands of oil. Since the sixties I have never had a oil related issue with any chainsaw. Thanks


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## full chizel (Jan 28, 2020)

I bought some today. The Honda dealer was out of HP2 until Friday so i just bought some Super M.


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