# Opinions on falling this tree...



## DeanBrown3D (Mar 3, 2006)

Hello all,

I want to fall this tree directly towards the camera, you can see the lean to the left (that's showing its full lean, directly left also).







I've never done a dutchman's cut before (I think that's what they are called), but this is maybe a good place to try.

Any opinions, can this tree fall the right way or is it leaning too much?

Thanks!

Dean


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2006)

Dean, do not try the dutchman, it is prohibited in BC, skilled fallers are not allowed to use it (many do of course but they have the skills), nevermind what Treespidey says, don't go there. This tree looks pretty small, scamper up it halfway, tie a rope to it with a bowline, take the other end and about 20ft. before a suitable tree (in the direction of intended fall) tie a bowline on the bight, run the end around the tree and through the bowline on the bight. Then put in the undercut, leaving more holding wood on the off lean side, yard the snot out of the rope and tie it off with some wraps and two half hitches. Then backcut, use a little wedge just in case, should work, done similar many times.


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks for the reply!

What do you mean _yard the snot out of it_? I picture what you have set up, except for that (I do assume you mean to tighten the rope).

The purpose of the exercise is to try some more advanced felling techniques, rather than just getting rid of the tree. We have a machine right next to the tree that can pull it out in a second. However, if you consider the dutchman to be so dangerous, maybe I'll think of something else to do.

It could break that rock too, I suppose.

Dean


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2006)

Dean, it is a saying, sounds a lot better than "yard on it like you are pulling a N off your old lady", does it not? Yes it means pull on something, real hard. Search this site for dutchman, use search, lots of opinions, but don't use it, it can be your demise.


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## jp hallman (Mar 3, 2006)

How big/small is the tree? Looks like it could be wedged over from the pics.


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 3, 2006)

clearance said:


> Dean, do not try the dutchman, it is prohibited in BC, skilled fallers are not allowed to use it (many do of course but they have the skills), nevermind what Treespidey says, don't go there.


Yeah if you try a "Dutchman" in NJ Tony Soprano will cut off you arms because it is prohibited in BC. 
Bla Bla Bla - who gives flying donkey's A$$ what is prohibited in BC while in a different country - do a "dutchmen" if you want it, is the simpliest yet most effective method of false directional felling around. I'm not telling you to do a "dutchmen" just do what you want.
Clearance - not tyring to be an A$$, but re-read your posts before you post and you will see why I sound so raunchy.
Have a good weekend fellas.


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2006)

You know what Dan, you are right about using a throwline to set ropes, it is superior to climbing up to do it. Treesling-you are a pro faller, it is not something for weekend warriors to mess with.


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## Tree Sling'r (Mar 3, 2006)

clearance said:


> You know what Dan, you are right about using a throwline to set ropes, it is superior to climbing up to do it. Treesling-you are a pro faller, it is not something for weekend warriors to mess with.


I totally agree with you, just more or less stating "do what you want". If you want to learn it - do it.
And like I said, didn't mean to sound so harsh.


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## jp hallman (Mar 3, 2006)

A dutchman is really a technique you should be shown how to use. Anybody there to teach?


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 3, 2006)

The tree is about 20-24 inches at shoulder height.

As I said, I'm looking to learn something new. If that's an advanced technique, then that's ok, I just want to know what the specific dangers are.


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## clearance (Mar 3, 2006)

The main danger is that as the tree falls,the flat spot in the undercut (dutchman) causes the tree to stop for a second, before the force is transferred, making it swing as intended. This second of stop puts stress on the tree vertically and can make some trees barberchair at this time, the chair might happen completely before the tree can fall. When falling in timber if the dutchman doesn't work out as intended the tree can be thrown into standing trees, possibly dislodging widowmakers or causing other problems.


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## jp hallman (Mar 3, 2006)

Or, the dutchman can cause the hinge to fail. The tree falls where it was last heading at this point. Which, might not be where you wanted it to go.
IF you have no qualms smashing things around this tree, and it looks like there are plenty of trees to go around, try your hand at using the dutchman technique. Never a better time to learn than now! It's not rocket science.


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## jp hallman (Mar 3, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> The tree is about 20-24 inches at shoulder height.
> 
> As I said, I'm looking to learn something new. If that's an advanced technique, then that's ok, I just want to know what the specific dangers are.



To be honest with you. The hazards are far greater driving to this tree than trying your hand at a "swing dutchman". GO FOR IT!!!
Pick a few escape routes. When she goes shut off the saw while looking up and get behind the biggest tree you can(for protection) and don't stop looking up until all sharpnel is on the ground. Then look for limbs hung up you might have missed. I think you'll pull it off and there won't be anything hanging above.


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## jp hallman (Mar 3, 2006)

Oh, and if make's you feel better. High stump the little jewel so you'll be on your feet and ready to beat.(beat feet that is). You can always hang a fence on the high stump or cut er' again.


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## clearance (Mar 4, 2006)

Don't let a little fear stop ya Dean, or common sense. JP you make it sound easy, Dean you heard it here first, falling trees ain't no big thing. Any one with a saw is a westcoast falller (in his mind anyways). JP is the real deal, don't try this at home kids.


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## jp hallman (Mar 4, 2006)

What tha'!? Why you hoser', How do you know I'm the "real deal". Your girl been smiling a lot lately? <snicker>.


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 4, 2006)

Ok enough already! I've felled a few trees in my time. Is that angle too much for a dutchman or not? The base is solid and rot-free.


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## skwerl (Mar 4, 2006)

There's no way to tell with only one picture from that angle.YOU have to cut it to where there is more weight in front of your hinge than behind it. Seeing a picture of half a tree doesn't show that.


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## wradman (Mar 4, 2006)

*dutchman*

I don't have a problem using the dutchman ,the problem is to do a nice dutchman(one that works properly)you have to stay at the stump and know when to trim a little more on the way down. Even with my experience i would only try it in a residential area if there were no houses or powerlines that could get hit if your holding wood were to break prematurely. 
The dutchman is more commonly used to save trees when you are selectively logging not around houses.


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## jp hallman (Mar 4, 2006)

Go for it! Dutchman away! If it works be sure to remember what you did. Just in case you want to do it again!


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## smokechase II (Mar 4, 2006)

*Bow tie cut*

Dean:
The slides below are from the start of a powerpoint on a new cut I was taught last summer. Had to transfer them to a word document to get them to upload on arborsite. Hope this works for most of you.
Should anyone have a helpful hint on how to get these over in a friendlier manner to the general viewer. Please and thank you for that help!
You GOL guys can just ignore this. Sure it wouldn't work where you're at anyway.

24" diameter means maybe you can squeeze 3 wedges on this tree.
Expect to be doubling just two sets at the end if you angle double wedges.


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## John Ellison (Mar 5, 2006)

Dean, did it swing any on the way down?


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## wradman (Mar 5, 2006)

*pics*



smokechase II said:


> Dean:
> The slides below are from the start of a powerpoint on a new cut I was taught last summer. Had to transfer them to a word document to get them to upload on arborsite. Hope this works for most of you.
> Should anyone have a helpful hint on how to get these over in a friendlier manner to the general viewer. Please and thank you for that help!
> You GOL guys can just ignore this. Sure it wouldn't work where you're at anyway.
> ...


interesting, that i haven't seen before. I understand that you would use that against the lean, i usually just put in my backcut first,put wedges in to hold the presure ,then put my undercut in then finish working my wedges.
I thought we were talking about using a dutchman to swing a tree around the top of another tree, i guess i was missing the original point.


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## smokechase II (Mar 5, 2006)

*dutchman versus*

I was offering this technique as an alternate to a dutchman.
Clearance and others have pointed out the danger in a dutchman.

This cut can be used to wedge over more of a backwards lean than a standard back-cut first as it provides support with no wedge settling on some trees.


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## Pacific (Mar 9, 2006)

That tree doesn't look like a 24" tree judging by the size of the rocks etc around it.

That tree is a pecker pole what are you scared of  

I had a alder tree that size beside a building leading towards a power line and a large window beside it. Not much room for error I got a rope on it and pulled it in the direction I wanted.

The largest tree I have dropped is a couple red cedars both 44"s in diameter and 60' tall with one hell of a canopy of branches on it.

The first one dropped nice the second one was tougher I couldn't stand on one side of the tree because it was a drop off bank. I wedged the hell out of it I should have cut a notch and used a hydraulic bottle jack to make it go.

I only run a 28" bar on my Stihl 46 which is a little short when your limited to where you can stand around the tree.


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## wradman (Mar 9, 2006)

*i'd say 22"*

haha just giving you a hard time , close enough i put a few pics in the picture forum under the thread help uploading videos you guys might like.
I use my 28" bar on just about everything except for my 335xp ,using the same bar all the time keeps me familiar with the same equiptment and i hit the dirt and rocks less.


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 12, 2006)

The tree is down, one of the kids did it and it just crashed forward and took out a bunch of other trees, oh well.

Thanks all,

Dean


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## woodfarmer (Mar 12, 2006)

*leaner*

db, you mean after all that you let one of your kids fall the tree?
smokechaser, just so i'm clear, you bore the side of the lean, face cut on the side in the direction you want it to fall, set wedges into bore cut, and nip the corners, am i following the slides correctly?


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 12, 2006)

No the land-owners kids. My daughter is only 3

It fell down into all those trees on the left of the pic


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## cord arrow (Mar 12, 2006)

*smokechase slides*

these should be more accessible, quality won't be near as good, however:


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## wradman (Mar 12, 2006)

*hm*



cord arrow said:


> these should be more accessible, quality won't be near as good, however:


out of the couple hundred thousand trees i have cut i don't think i would use that one ever


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 12, 2006)

wradman said:


> out of the couple hundred thousand trees i have cut i don't think i would use that one ever



200,000 trees?


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## wradman (Mar 12, 2006)

*reply*

no bull


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 12, 2006)

Impressive!


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## wradman (Mar 12, 2006)

*thanks*

I know it sounds like bull, I will see if i can work on getting a few video's i have working.
might take me a coulple of weeks


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## DeanBrown3D (Mar 12, 2006)

Its 40 trees a day for 20 years. Sounds like a dream of a job. 

But I bet you didn't buck them all up and load them onto the back of a trailer (my style)


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## wradman (Mar 12, 2006)

*nope*

straight production falling

check this one out i was called to investigate what this city worker did wrong what do you think.


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## wradman (Mar 12, 2006)

*jackpine*

You do the math sometimes i do production falling in jackpine(lodgepole pine)

in jackpine i get about 50-100 trees per tank 5"-12"trees about 70 ft tall, a tank last about 40 minutes in small wood like that , i fall about 10 tanks a day in small wood ,more in bigger wood because the saw eats it up quicker.
When i'm in bigger wood (interior falling oversize i still fall about 150 trees per day) My big wood is not big for everyone , big wood for me is usually between 2' and 4' not big for a coastal faller.
I don't know my exact #'s of trees i have fell but if i ever meet my maker and he makes me put them back in the ground i'm going to be busy for a long time ,i've been production falling over 15 years


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## clearance (Mar 13, 2006)

wradman said:


> straight production falling
> 
> check this one out i was called to investigate what this city worker did wrong what do you think.


 Win some, lose some, thats the way it goes, is that an acceptable answer? I figure it was some guy who cut firewood with his uncle years ago and figured that qualified him as a faller. What happened Wrad?


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## wradman (Mar 13, 2006)

*not acceptable*



clearance said:


> Win some, lose some, thats the way it goes, is that an acceptable answer? I figure it was some guy who cut firewood with his uncle years ago and figured that qualified him as a faller. What happened Wrad?


he works for the city ,do you think that is acceptable


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## clearance (Mar 13, 2006)

wradman said:


> he works for the city ,do you think that is acceptable


Wrad, city workers don't usually work, they "work". Not very impressive, nothing happened to him, life goes on, just another day, at "work".


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## wradman (Mar 13, 2006)

*your right*

nothing happened to him a little slap on the wrist, i got some good pics from last week for you but they were sent to me in email bummer having a bad time with them.


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## TimberPig (Mar 13, 2006)

wradman said:


> straight production falling
> 
> check this one out i was called to investigate what this city worker did wrong what do you think.



Underestimated the height of the tree, and failed to make sure that an adequate area around the tree was free of anything or anyone who could potentially come into harms way. Might have been trying to put the tree somewhere other than where it fell, but due to inadequate skill and training, it didn't go where he wanted. As a result, it hit the Mercedes, that should never have been allowed to remain where it was while the tree was being taken down.

Am I anywhere close to what you determined?


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## wradman (Mar 13, 2006)

*tree*

i had lots of pics , the stump was terrible cut his holding wood off.
was fighting the saw big time couldnt cut straight
I tried to spend more time showing them how not to let it happen again rather than bashing the faller(which i would have liked to do)
I was more pissed with the guy that trained him, giving the guy just enough kknowledge to be dangerous . We had a pretty good fight about that.


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## PWB (Mar 14, 2006)

wradman said:


> i had lots of pics , the stump was terrible cut his holding wood off.
> was fighting the saw big time couldnt cut straight
> I tried to spend more time showing them how not to let it happen again rather than bashing the faller(which i would have liked to do)
> I was more pissed with the guy that trained him, giving the guy just enough kknowledge to be dangerous . We had a pretty good fight about that.


I'm a municipal worker in ontario, couldn't agree more. Had a course 15 years ago when I started that was pretty good, 2 days. Last time we were run through a course it was 1/2 a day, ran saws for about 20 minutes, didn't do any teardown, cleanup, nothing. Some of us cut a lot of wood, both for ourselves and for the municipality, have for years. All we got was a few reminders that may have been enough for someone that cuts all the time, no good for a newbie. These guys are now officially "trained", many of them have never picked up a saw before that day. I see accidents waiting to happen.......


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## clearance (Mar 14, 2006)

PWB said:


> I'm a municipal worker in ontario, couldn't agree more. Had a course 15 years ago when I started that was pretty good, 2 days. Last time we were run through a course it was 1/2 a day, ran saws for about 20 minutes, didn't do any teardown, cleanup, nothing. Some of us cut a lot of wood, both for ourselves and for the municipality, have for years. All we got was a few reminders that may have been enough for someone that cuts all the time, no good for a newbie. These guys are now officially "trained", many of them have never picked up a saw before that day. I see accidents waiting to happen.......


Splendid, it really isn't that big of a deal, anyone can do it, now working in an office, thats really a big thing, thats where all the smart people are in this municipal department..............


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## wradman (Mar 15, 2006)

*honesty*



PWB said:


> I'm a municipal worker in ontario, couldn't agree more. Had a course 15 years ago when I started that was pretty good, 2 days. Last time we were run through a course it was 1/2 a day, ran saws for about 20 minutes, didn't do any teardown, cleanup, nothing. Some of us cut a lot of wood, both for ourselves and for the municipality, have for years. All we got was a few reminders that may have been enough for someone that cuts all the time, no good for a newbie. These guys are now officially "trained", many of them have never picked up a saw before that day. I see accidents waiting to happen.......


thank you for your honesty 
Not trying to bash the guy but you need a ticket and about 4 years of training to be an electrician. Now people think they can fall trees with 1/2 day of training. I am not exaggerating when i say i have fell more than 200,000 trees after 15 years i still am learning things everyday. The biggest fight with actual falling of trees is keeping your saw cutting straight, I have had allot of fallers work for me and it is a constant battle even for myself,knowing if it is a worn out bar,bad filing or just guys pulling on the saws in a bad way when using the Humboldt cut. Some times you get a chain that cuts straight all the time right out of the box , sometimes you fight the next chain from day one to day 21 , taking extra off one side , measuring raker's etc.Let me tell you i've worn out quite a few saws my biggest ????? lately was when they changed the 404 chain i had to go back to 3/8's and i'm real happy with the results.


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## horseloggerMont (Apr 9, 2006)

wradman said:


> out of the couple hundred thousand trees i have cut i don't think i would use that one ever


 having worked as a logger and horselogger...my only comment is ...did you notice the nomex shirt?.......can you say this was what some genius in the forest service came up with?


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## gavin (Apr 23, 2006)

i've got the B.C. fallers and buckers handbook (its not the newest one) and it says dutchmans (i've always heard them called swinging dutchmans, i guess for the swinging motion) are not recommended but permitted. (page 32 of the 2001 edition)


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## gavin (Apr 23, 2006)

wradman said:


> You do the math sometimes i do production falling in jackpine(lodgepole pine)
> 
> in jackpine i get about 50-100 trees per tank 5"-12"trees about 70 ft tall, a tank last about 40 minutes in small wood like that , i fall about 10 tanks a day in small wood ,more in bigger wood because the saw eats it up quicker.
> When i'm in bigger wood (interior falling oversize i still fall about 150 trees per day) My big wood is not big for everyone , big wood for me is usually between 2' and 4' not big for a coastal faller.
> I don't know my exact #'s of trees i have fell but if i ever meet my maker and he makes me put them back in the ground i'm going to be busy for a long time ,i've been production falling over 15 years



wow thats impressive falling! i'm not a faller, but i lay out standing stem wood on coastal vancouver island. i've marked some massive firs and cedars. some well over 6 foot DBH with 30 meters of high grade...then there's the the peelers and standard saw logs on top. i would kill to be allowed to cut those monsters down, but the value in those trees makes them get really good fallers to jack them over. i'd post a pic if i knew how. the wood looks like this: http://www.remcontracting.com/NZ_Forest_Industries.pdf this is one of the companies that does topping around here.


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## wradman (Apr 23, 2006)

*pic*

what is that saw gavin looks like around a 385 full wrap or a little smaller


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## wradman (Apr 23, 2006)

*awesome*

you know i had to read that entire article it was great,i'm sure in my younger days i would have been all over that one . i think after app. 15 yrs of production falling my knees and ankles couldn't take that abuse anymore, and i'm not sure if i'm quite as brave as i used to be lol.

I'm not sure if you know this or not but here is something i don't know if you ever heard of , when i went to new zealand for a visit a few years ago i noticed that on all of ther tree farms the trees looked like they were planted like carrots . you could honestly look right through the forests down the isles of trees it was wierd to drive down the road and be able to see over 1/2 a kilometer through the bush and all the trees were the same size. freaky dude.
no small trees they were all around 24 inches plus hardly any underbrush it looked almost science fiction to me.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 23, 2006)

unfortunately REM went bankrupt this year


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## gavin (Apr 23, 2006)

1I'dJak said:


> unfortunately REM went bankrupt this year



yeah now there's a few new companies around. AFO is really good. a guy i know tops for them. so is another one i think its called south island standing stem or somethign like that.


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## gavin (Apr 23, 2006)

wradman said:


> what is that saw gavin looks like around a 385 full wrap or a little smaller


its a 394. haven't had it long but i love it.


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## gavin (Apr 23, 2006)

wradman said:


> you know i had to read that entire article it was great,i'm sure in my younger days i would have been all over that one . i think after app. 15 yrs of production falling my knees and ankles couldn't take that abuse anymore, and i'm not sure if i'm quite as brave as i used to be lol.



yeah it looks like fun. at work we've ran into the toppers and watched them work, looks like tons of fun. especially grapple hooking over to the next tree. makes me want to quit school and start climbing. decisions, decisions eh? I've never seen but i've heard about the tree farms like that. i hear they farm trees like that in europe too. must be nice falling, but nothing beats the look of a good old growth fir and cedar stand through my eyes.


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