# Wheres all the old Schoolers?



## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

This buisness is gone the way of the pulley. All this talk of pullies and cranes? I really don't know what to say. Is this the only way some guys can take a tree down. Cranes, I'd be embarassed to bring a crane to a job. 

I was reading some climbers ideas for boots and I'm thinking what the hell? You cant climb every day in low cut anything. I come from knowing almost every great tree man in Toronto. Guys that take down carolina popluers 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet tall in a 30x50 foot back yard starting at 9 am and there home with a check in there pocket by 6:30 pm the same day. I've done it countless times with my father over the years. With us and two other guys, some times one. Like really, is this the pulley way now or what?


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 18, 2004)

Troll...???


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

True tree man, not poluted with your can't break a twig can't dare stick a spur in bull???? while I'm getting 20 trees saved and claened up while your trying foot lock one tree.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

Your speaking from ignorance and ego. I'm not trying to rip on you.

Sometimes old natural crotch rigging is better, most of the time it is not.

If you can bring a crane on the job and have it to a stump in less time, for the same money why not do it?

What is there to be embarassed about doingg things differently then those who have doen it before? Espcially if it makes it easier on your body.

As for low cut climbing shoes, I could not do it, but I know guys who do. On a big trim why not where a lighter shoe? Your not in gaffs for that work (or should not be).

Pullies and friction breaks take a lot of the guesswork out of the rigging. You can tell the ground guy to take 2 wraps on the capstan and it is done. no waiting for the guy to wind it around a tree then off again when it needs to be lowered.

Scoff once youve tried a method enough to have ruled out its aplicability to the way you work.

Some of these thing may help you climb longer then without them.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Troll...??? *




No Tom, TROLL!!!!!

TC how do you block down a trunk that grows though a deck without a pulley and a false crotch? 

Why is everyone wrong, and you are the only one right?

Nine and a half hours is a long time for a pine removal with that sized LZ. With a 30x50 yard, it could be easily done in 2 hours. 

I recently did a 90' pine with a 15x15 LZ in 2 hours 30 min. 

Yesterday I did a 80 foot gum tree, with pulleys in a LZ of 30x15 (or so). Took 3 hours. Dropping limbs that were the full size of the LZ with absolute control (had to have it, one side had high voltage lines, another had 3 service drops, another side was a house, and the other side was a fence.)


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

TC how do you block down a trunk that grows though a deck without a pulley and a false crotch? 

Are you for real?


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

No Tom, TROLL!!!!!

TC how do you block down a trunk that grows though a deck without a pulley and a false crotch? 

Why is everyone wrong, and you are the only one right?

Nine and a half hours is a long time for a pine removal with that sized LZ. With a 30x50 yard, it could be easily done in 2 hours. 

I recently did a 90' pine with a 15x15 LZ in 2 hours 30 min. 

Yesterday I did a 80 foot gum tree, with pulleys in a LZ of 30x15 (or so). Took 3 hours. Dropping limbs that were the full size of the LZ with absolute control (had to have it, one side had high voltage lines, another had 3 service drops, another side was a house, and the other side was a fence.)




Sounds like the same as me with no pullies


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

This is a discussion group, he is asking a question.


Tone down your rehtoric and others will not jump on you so much





> True tree man, not poluted with your can't break a twig can't dare stick a spur in bull???? while I'm getting 20 trees saved and claened up while your trying foot lock one tree.




Do you understand how decay operates in trees? 

Explain to me how spiking saves a tree?


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *TC how do you block down a trunk that grows though a deck without a pulley and a false crotch?
> 
> Are you for real? *



Yes I am. 

Here is the senerio (spelling?). 90 foot (3'6" DBH) pine growing through a deck. The canopy starts at 60 foot, and runs the rest of the way up with no structural defects. There is no LZ as it is through a large deck. The deck backs up to a large million dollar home.

After you get the canopy down, how do you get the remainin 60 foot of smooth pole down without messing up the deck, the house, and not using a FC with a pulley?


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

ITS CALLED FALSE CROTCHING WITHOUT A PULLEY


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *Sounds like the same as me with no pullies *




Oh to add to that, I used both pulleys and natural crotches. The only time I used a natural crotch was to control the but end of a 30 foot long limb. Tip tie with rope through pulley, butt tie with rope through crotch. 

Natural croches have there place, it allowed me to hold the butt end with one hand while cutting with the other (no trolling there MM). But the main load was on the tip tie.

Spikes on trims is hack work plain and simple. That shows nothing to your experiance, rather to your knowledge of CODIT (albeit very little).

Experiance is a funny thing. I have 8 months experiance, but I get calls from people that have 30 years experiance that cannot do a removal because it is too hard. The funny thing about experiance is that they have 1 year of experiance 30 times over, I have 8 months experiance, but through AS and an open anilitical mind, I have more working knowledge (read experiance) than almost anyone else in my area.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *ITS CALLED FALSE CROTCHING WITHOUT A PULLEY *



Ok so you use a false crotch with a what? Binner, clevis?


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

I've done hundred of trees through decks over million dollar homes over pools over ravines never seen a pulley.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Is this limberjack guy for real? You don't know how to false crotch with just a rope? Go learn something thats not in a book


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *Is this limberjack guy for real? You don't know how to false crotch with just a rope? Go learn something thats not in a book *



I am for real. So you are saying that you set up a false crotch, run the bull rope throught the loop, and up to the peice that you are blocking down? So it is all rope, no metal?


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

yes


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Heres a tree my father walked up like nothing


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

heres a horizontal split


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *yes *




Rope on rope friction is unacceptable. How many FC have you burnt through before? why is it so crazy to use a pulley? Unscrew the pin, slip it over the loop of the FC, slip in the rope, and you can lower peices (or let them run to reduce shock load) without worry of melting the FC.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Heres what that leads to


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *Heres a tree my father walked up like nothing *



You seem to be stuck on your father. Without a shot of the whole tree, that pic does little. Trees that have defects in there bases should be supported if necessary.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

ha ha ha noo we haven't burned through a rope before not even close


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

To ensure the stability of the tree, from what I can see in the pic, I would add 1 or 2 racheting straps around the base to support the defect, to keep it from spreading.

My life is worth more to me and others to not do everything I can to make the tree as safe as possible on hazardus removals, such as that.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

The origionl term for false crotch was to cut a knotch for the rope to run through.

As you have already visuallized, it wears the rope faster.

Also the rope is running right by the climber, so there is a higher risk involved. Mike Oxman has a vid of it somewhere around here, maybe someone else knows where to link to.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *ha ha ha noo we haven't burned through a rope before not even close *



Then you must lower the wood at painfully slow paces. There is no way to run a load down when the FC is all rope without burning the rope. Rope on Rope friction is too great a force.

So I need to put down the book and get to work? Sounds like someone needs to pic up a book and learn some things. There is whole world out there.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 18, 2004)

Did you strap the two leads together before climbing? If not, it was reckless to climb into a tree that has failed that bad. 

It hurts to see the bravado and chest thumping of old school climbers. Just because you were successful once doesn't mean that you can do the same thing again. Remember, tree work is more like backgammon where skill is needed but you do have luck in the game. Not like chess where skill will win more games. 

Do you see the irony here? Discussing the benefits of old school and progressive on an electronic medium with digital pictures across country borders in real time!!! If this were truly old school, the only place this conversation would be taking place is at the curb leaning against the truck or down at the saw shop.

Tom


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Yep i am cocky about my father. Its because Ive seen ???? that is unbelivable. And I've worked with others that are supposed to be awsome and are. Alls I can say is that I get the same job done with two ropes, belt, spurs, two saws and a bar wrench. and some gas and oil. and a truck and chipper. You tell me whats wrong with that, nothing, it gives me more pride in what i do. 


Heres one side of that tree


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

Nothing is wrong with working in your comfort zone. We just know that adding tricks to you bag will help.

There is a problem with trimming on spkes though. It is bad for the trees.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 18, 2004)

Nothing "wrong" except that using spikes to prune trees will put you in the hack group. Nothing "wrong" except that the practices look very unsafe. 

I'm proud to say that I can rig out any tree with only manile rope but why would I want to? I can still use a typewriter to write but why would I? I can sew by hand but I would rather use my Pfaff. 

Don't let pride fog your understanding of what is right and safe. 

Do you know anyone who has been killed because they made a mistake or got in over their head because they didn't understand the risks that they were working in? Once you do know of a death, you might have a different view. Too many of us have lost friends to condone this behavior or attitude.

Tom


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

My fathers good freind was killed at the E.X. in toronto. I know about deaths I now about injuries. and the drop crotch runs down as fast as I wan't it to.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Using spikes on a tree puts me in the hack catigory?

NO it doesn't. Tom's over zellousness gives good tree men a bad wrap. Your not the final authority on trees Tom! Sure spiking hurts the tree, but if done right and as least as posible it can have no noticable ill effects which has been the case for myself for years 99% of the trees my father climbs I cant tell he's even spiked it. Go learn from experiance pal.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

We are nto trying to say that anyone is stupid or less manly because they do it "the old way".

It is just that we have done it that way and found ways that work better. 

Tom actually did start with Mailla rope. I know guy who started on a bolin saddle.

Old methods are good to know, and have their place in operations. Spikes for example are a must for large removals.

Natural crotch rigging cna be faster then low frction rigging. It can be safer in arear where a block will overload the rigging point.

If you would like some ageement on your points, then gove a little thought to ours. Let me explain the whys and wherefores.


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## rborist1 (Mar 18, 2004)

:Eye:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *Using spikes on a tree puts me in the hack catigory?
> 
> NO it doesn't. Tom's over zellousness gives good tree men a bad wrap. Your not the final authority on trees Tom! Sure spiking hurts the tree, but if done right and as least as posible it can have no noticable ill effects which has been the case for myself for years 99% of the trees my father climbs I cant tell he's even spiked it. Go learn from experiance pal. *



Spiking does hurt trees because of the nature of the wounding.

Will you let me expalin why? 
Are you willing to give me a chance or are you set on believing we are idiots??

I can point you to soe things to read if you would prefer.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rborist1 _
> *Why are you guys even wasting your time with this discussion?  *



The only thing he can say is no.

I'm spending my time here anyways. 

If we can plant the seed, maybe the tree will grow.

Both Tom and I started the way he is now.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

I think this is a good conversation.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *I think this is a good conversation. *



I do to, you're still here.

Will you give me the chance to try and convert you to going from just tree work to tree care? 

There is science bhind my beleifes

Look at this search on decay in trees. We would be happy to answer any of your questions as you go.

http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/decay+trees


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

I don't need to know that spikes hurt the trees. because any body can figure that stabing a tree isn't great, please. I'd like to hear some good input I love knowladge. Just understand when I say my eyes are open and I've payed attention to detail as far as what is harmful to trees. 

And my point is you don't know from experiance, maybe some idiot who spurred WAY to much. 

Which is what i'm saying 

what i consider way too much spiking most posters consider averadge therefore they think you shouldn't be done at all. Are you reading me?


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## rborist1 (Mar 18, 2004)

:Eye:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

Ok, so you aggree that spiking is wounding the trees. How is a little harm OK? 

Damaging th bark allows pathogens an inroad to the tree.

Do you understand the concept of CODIT?

You talk about a pulley being a bad shortcut. i would say that spikes on a prune are a crutch from learning good climbing technique.

Any unnessesary wounding is bad, period.


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## TREETX (Mar 18, 2004)

It sounds like Daddies boy is drinking before noon.

I am sure daddy is the fastest you have seen. Good for you, good for daddy you gonna hold his hand too?.

There are many climbers that use pulleys that could hand your dad his a$$ when it comes to climbing and pruning.

Do some research, learn something. Climb with a few certified arborists for a start.


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Ok now so i like your argument that goes in circles. It sounds like its dangerouse with out spurs on alot of pruning. You don't know ???? from experiance just theory is all you know john


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *It sounds like Daddies boy is drinking before noon.
> 
> I am sure daddy is the fastest you have seen. Good for you, good for daddy you gonna hold his hand too?.
> ...


 I think you don't even have a clue. My fahter is considered one of the best PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Does any body on her know any body from toronto thats a tree man? Toronto is made up of millions of people and every body in the buisness know his name from being the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Any body that uses spikes on a prune job is a hack? 

Could you prove any more of how litte you know? NEVER use spurs on a prune job, are you nuts you shouldn't be in the buisness if thats your attitude


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

Tree tx your pretty awsome with the burns. And knocking my spelling good one. I'm going to do a tree that you couldn't handle right now


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

> I have done the paver thing and the flower pot thing.


 I guess the fact that ive only ever seen one window one fence post and a and an eves troph slightly bent in about 10 000 tree jobs means that we must be luckey right? And I'm not lying


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

heres another


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## Trees Company (Mar 18, 2004)

No more comments about how twice the gear and work is better?


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## rb_in_va (Mar 18, 2004)

Trees Company,

Where's the pics of you climbing?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 18, 2004)

Your comments and pictures are right on, for a line clearence guy. The objective in line clearing is to do as much damage to the tree as you can, in hopes that it will be a longer trimming cycle. If you kill the tree, next time round you don't have to trim it.
I bet you and your father are good at that, clearing lines and killing trees, it's tree care that you don't have a grasp on.
Manners are not a strong point for you either. There are people here that can not only out climb you and dad, they also actually know basic tree biology and can give much better care to a tree than you will ever know. Yet you come here and insult us like we just fell off the truck and don't have a clue.
A broke, stupid, hillbilly can probably remove a kidney with a pocket knife, and do it fast. I would not hire him though. I'd go to a doctor with all the good tools and knowledge to pick what tool to use and when.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *I'm going to do a tree that you couldn't handle right now *



Let's see a picture of you in this tree that no one on this forum can handle but you...


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## Newfie (Mar 18, 2004)

Sounds like McPeak has relatives north of the border?


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## dbeck (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *This buisness is gone the way of the pulley. All this talk of pullies and cranes? I really don't know what to say. Is this the only way some guys can take a tree down. Cranes, I'd be embarassed to bring a crane to a job.
> 
> I was reading some climbers ideas for boots and I'm thinking what the hell? You cant climb every day in low cut anything. I come from knowing almost every great tree man in Toronto. Guys that take down carolina popluers 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet tall in a 30x50 foot back yard starting at 9 am and there home with a check in there pocket by 6:30 pm the same day. I've done it countless times with my father over the years. With us and two other guys, some times one. Like really, is this the pulley way now or what? *



I would suggest that you at least give a chance to the members of this site and the knowledge they have. You could pick up on some of that knowledge you say you like.
If you do only removals, stay in your spikes and burn your ropes 'til they are useless. If you prune, start to care for those trees spikeless and try to do as little damage as possible (heavens, that might mean a pulley). When you get a grasp on that, start using modern climbing techniques - you might be surprised at how much fun you can have while working.


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## jamie (Mar 18, 2004)

*lack of false crotches*

i must put my hand up and admit that our company doesnt use false crotches and what not on takedowns, our old lowering ropes get used for the crane (with a timber grab for pulling in chunks where there is no access), towing etc.....

we dont use false crotches for removals and we do it quickly,

having said that i would like to start using things like this though, but i cant afford to buy them and the boss wont.

spikes on prunes are hack work its bad for the tree.

do short spikes damage trees with really thick bark.

imagine if a tree with bark as thick as a redwood had big limbs, would spiking a limb / bole with small shoprt spikes damage the cambium, i will repeate the imagine part and add THIS IS TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL. just trying to ask questions and further my knowledge.

anyway... trees company....try climbing without spikes its fun...... i like swinging around

jamie


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## dbeck (Mar 18, 2004)

I have heard of people spiking trees W/ super thick bark - I'm guessing that is because they feel the spike is not going through to transport organs and such.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

WHAT A THREAD!!!


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## Menchhofer (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Newfie _
> *Sounds like McPeak has relatives north of the border? *


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *Ok now so i like your argument that goes in circles. It sounds like its dangerouse with out spurs on alot of pruning. You don't know ???? from experiance just theory is all you know john *



 

I only started in the mid '80.

Atatched is me deadwooding a white pine tip.

No gaffs, no pole saw.


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## blue (Mar 18, 2004)

trees company,
why are you here?


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

*Excellent post there, Brian.*

Uhhh TreesCompany, what is your lanyard set-up?


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## blue (Mar 18, 2004)

Rocky,
i guess you 'aint gonna be drawn in?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: Excellent post there, Brian.*



> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Uhhh TreesCompany, what is your lanyard set-up? *



That's an old fangled pole strap. They give them out for climbing poles.
To adjust, simplely unclip, guess about how big you want it, buckle it in the nearest hole, and reclip.
Pretty funny to the best tree climber in Canada using it for a lanyard!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: lack of false crotches*



> _Originally posted by jamie _
> *
> do short spikes damage trees with really thick bark.
> 
> ...



I've heard this before, and have been the devils advocate in a number of discussions on it. None of those who apose spiking any trim had been able to put forth a cogent argument against it.

I've been trying to find a reason why, then I was sitting in a conferance a few years ago on the nature of bark. That thick bark is not all dead tissue. The reason it grows out in thick fissured platesd is because of the cork cambium, or phelogen.

This got me thinking and looking in the line of "is there any evicance that pathogens can enter the tree through a wounding of the bark that only enters the phlogen."

I've not been able to find anything on it, but in February a speaker at the WAA conferance who is a noted expert in barck cankers said he "does not know for sure, but it is very likely to be true.".

If you wound into living tissue you risk exposing the tree to infection.

It comes down to how well we understand physiology and whether we want to learn, or we operate on assumptions.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

*Re: LMFAO!*



> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Man, it doesn't take much to bunch up everybody's panties around here! 4 pages of people trying to convince this old schooler how wrong he is. JPS and Carl- y'all go get'um! Beat him into submission! LMFAO!
> *



Brian, why dont you look at his age and jump in on that note 

I thought I would be able to at least plant a seed of doubt.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 18, 2004)

Every once in a while its fun to get in a fight with Tar Baby like B'rer Rabbit in the Uncle Remus stories. 
***

*Using spikes on a tree puts me in the hack catigory?*
***
Yup, that's the conclusion that arborists have come to. Here is my standing offer that I started making at least ten years ago: If you can show me documentation that shows that spiking live trees, for pruning, is an acceptable practice, you bring a printout of that to any of the trade shows that we both might attend, and I'll eat it! So far, I'm still looking for one peson to find that documentation. Until you do, the weight of evidence on spiking damaging trees is heavily on my side. Do you want to counter my offer? How does cellulose taste to an omnivore?
***

*NO it doesn't. Tom's over zellousness gives good tree men a bad wrap. *
***

Give me five points on your list of what a "good tree man" is? 
***

*Your not the final authority on trees 
Tom!*
***
Where did I appoint myself to that position? I do happen to know a thing or two about trees. Take a look at the way that this discussion is falling. How many of the other posts agree with my ideas and how many with yours? Seems like you're a lone voice.
***

*Sure spiking hurts the tree, but if done right and as least as posible it can have no noticable ill effects which has been the case for myself for years 99% of the trees my father climbs I cant tell he's even spiked it. *
***
Do a search for Harold McPeak. He is a real, legendary, person. You'll understand the jab that you got 
***
*Go learn from experiance pal.*
***
When I first started climbing professionally, way back in the cave man days of the very early 1970s, I did spike. That's because I didn't know any better and that is what I was taught. BUT!!! When I started reading trade literature and tree books I realized the error in my ways. Back before people had home computers and the Internet it was much harder to connect with other people in the profession. When I read the nasty terms used for tree spikers I knew that I didn't want to be part of that club. Hack is the nicest of the nasty terms.

By the way, how many years have you been climbing? How about your Dad? What's the name of your company? Your real name? Hiding out behind a screen name is convenient since there is no audit mechanism.
***

*I don't need to know that spikes hurt the trees. *
***
See, you're coming around already 

because any body can figure that stabing a tree isn't great,
***
Keep it up, just a little more...
***

* please. I'd like to hear some good input I love knowladge. Just understand when I say my eyes are open and I've payed attention to detail as far as what is harmful to trees.*
***
Keep your eyes open and now work no opening up your mind and closing your mouth so that you can calm down and absorb something here.
***

*And my point is you don't know from experiance, maybe some idiot who spurred WAY to much.*
***
What is too much? That's like saying you're only a little dirty. Either you're dirty or you're clean. 

There are few places where there are enough trees with thick bark to consider the use of spikes. Besides, it's way easier to ascend those big, thick barked trees by using SRT than spikes. OK, STOP!!! Don't go and take this thread off on an SRT tangent. Start a new thread if you want to discuss that 

You started the thread by looking for some old schoolers. I consider myself a graduate of the old school but I teach in the new school. 

Still looking for that literature. Would it be OK if I put some Chalula sauce on it? 

Tom


_ hope i got the code in the right place-jps_


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## Guy Meilleur (Mar 18, 2004)

I thought I was the oldest of the oldschoolers but this guy makes me seem SO progressive--and safe!

I just climbed an oak that a year ago I spiked a 10' section in the top of because there was no crotch to tie into, and I wanted to head back a jagged stub left by ice. The spike holes were rotting.  This is a vigorous, maturing willow oak and I couldn't find much callus around the spike holes even tho last season was moist and good for growing.

ANSI's wording on spiking says it's ok if "limbs are more than throwline distance apart" (so we should be improving our tossing) or if "bark is thick enough to prevent damage to the cambium". I'm w jps--bark cambium shouldn't be needlessly damaged. Next rewrite, ANSI needs to look at that one.Bill Chaney will give a good talk at the Minnesota Shade Tree Short Course next week---you'll hear about bark cambium there if you go.


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## BigJohn (Mar 18, 2004)

I think alot of us here have been where old trees something our other is comeing from. I remember when I never had a handsaw on my belt. I also rember thinking anything less than redwings for climbing were just K kickers. Throw balls were useless. I was ignorant too. I guess because all this new crazy fancy gear didn't work for because I didn't know how to use it or was proficient. Seeing is believing. I know what it is to block down a tree without a block. That's no problem but I sure do like having a block more. Sure I don't need it but it is easier on the rope, ground crew and me. Sure you get the work done by 6:30 but I would put money that on that same tree I would have it down in half the time with minimum new gear. This goes both ways here. I don't think in field should be with out the knowledg of how to get along with out their gear. And the old school guy should be open to useing some blocks and slings and throw ball.


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## Menchhofer (Mar 18, 2004)

TC is only 24-25 years old and has more than like learned everything from his daddy. Nothing wrong with that. But he does need to branch out and open his mind to newer, safer and modern techniques. 

Mouthing off simply puts the rest of us on the defensive.

He could be related to Mr. Peak, who knows?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Hey JPS,
> Even as smart as I am, I'm still learning stuff. This week I'm learning that not everybody will agree with me or see things from my perspective. Also, not everybody wishes to learn 'my' version of The Truth.
> 
> *



Heck, I've known that for a long time, I just try to not throw the towel in right away

Despite what liberals may say, not all truth is relative. There are some absolutes out there. Some people just stick their fingers in their ears and sing.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

Aight I am back now. Had to check out of school, after a test, to go work. Tomorrow night is prom, so I aint goin to school then either (as is everyone else). Plan on gettin in 8 hours of work before dinner reservations at 5:45.


Lets work down the lists of posts:

About TC's father: He very well may be the best around your area. I would reccommend looking at other climbers, such as Mark Chisolm (spelling of last name?). He is flat out awsome. From what I hear, Big John holds his on very well also. The local "legend" around here has the same setup as your father, very minimalistic in the approach to gear. A month or two ago I got a call from him, he needed me, a newbie to the field, to take down a large oak that he couldnt do. That made my day. 

About the 1st tree with the large defect in the base, I am assuming that yall didnt strap it together, and that is reckless.


Spiking on trim jobs is hack work. There is no way to "properly" spike a tree. Spiking the tree opens many holes to the cambium. While this may not kill the tree directly, it forces the tree to spread its energy reseves out even futher, which can lead to the introduction of diseases that can kill the tree.

TC, you say that you have done around 10,000 jobs. I am callin your bluff. You are 25 years old. If you did one tree job a day, 365 days a year; 10,000 jobs would take 27 years. 

I two want to see some pics of the unobtainium tree that only you can do.

I would think that spiking on thick barked trees wouldnt pose a problem, but the jury is still out, so I am just posting my thought.

Brana, I am amazed at you. You are a much calmer person now. Bravo, but dont let people get away with too much, people will think that you are getting soft.

Tom isnt the industry appointed wizard, but he really knows his stuff, as do many here (excluding me, I gotta learn those big words). Tom started old school, but now he is on the cutting edge of new techiques, and has been in the industry nationwide for many years now.

When I came to AS, I was full of ideas (still am, but I think about them more, now that I have some experiance.) I have learned alot from this site, which I think adds to my level of experiance. 

Someones sig says/once said something to the effect of I stand on the shoulders of those before me, so I can achieve even more. Something like that, anyone remember what it was?

I reckon that is it for now.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

I think our boy is still on that hard TD.


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## highpoint-utd (Mar 18, 2004)

or maybe him and dad are still looking through the bottle at that hard t/d.


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## kurtztree (Mar 18, 2004)

At the very least try a bigshot and throwline for about a month. I used to think they were useless but they aren't saved me from climbing some big trees to put a rope in. some thing I didn't try yet is using pullies and bunch of other things.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 18, 2004)

I guess so . 

I did the other tree on that gum job. Took 2 and a half hours. Not too bad. The power company came out and dropped the lines, i took down the cable lines, and everything was able to swing down to a butt tie (starting to like the runnin bowline) Blocked it down to the crotch, and cut the small snag/tall stump and pushed it over (man that was hard, but there was too much brush around the tree to make a notch and hinge, was pretty fun tho). Powercompany put the lines back up, we put the cable back up. Only thing that sucked was the groundy sent the 044 up without any gas in it. The GRCS wouldnt have made that big of help on this tree, but on the other 3 it woulda.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kurtztree _
> *At the very least try a bigshot and throwline for about a month. I used to think they were useless but they aren't saved me from climbing some big trees to put a rope in. some thing I didn't try yet is using pullies and bunch of other things. *



Any time you want to work with the new stuff give me a call  

We can spit the job on a weekend or soemthing. I can be flexable as an itroduction. You're less then two hours away from me.


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## lawmart (Mar 18, 2004)

wow this is a great thread, 
But i got appoligize for this guy i feal bad saying he's from the great white north
You now guys i tried to get more info on tc before, he saws he from toronto and his farther worked for the city of toronto i have worked for the city for about 10-12 years my self although they have about 60 climbers in the core of the city and probly another 90 climber in the broughs of the city.
I still have not got him to say who his father is or who he is and what company he/they own.
But what i can saw about old timers, is that they have a welth of knolage in that head of theres you have to now how to take it out with out damage there ego, and then when you get it out apply it to our new 'mordern' approch to tree work.

And this is to you TC take that one liner of or page about using a crane , WHY NOT have a crane lift that tree out of the back yard in 4-5 lifts in stead of fighting to get it down the having to drag it to the front of the house. You should be tring to make life easer withthis nwe mordern tool called the "crane". Pony up the 1000-1200 per day for a 45ton save your back.

Lawmart

playsafe


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## kurtztree (Mar 18, 2004)

JPS I am taking you up on the offer the next big tree I get if you wouldn't mind working on a Saturday. Okay Thank You


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## rbtree (Mar 18, 2004)

Well, TC, I gotta hand it to ya!! 79 posts in 12 hours, you really got ASite rockin'

Ghees, did all youse guys stay home today to get in on the fun? 

I had my fun, came to the rescue of my young punk crew who were too scared to climb and remove a 70 foot fir in 35 mph wind gusts. Heck it was dwarfed and protected a bit by the 120 footers next to it. 

I let a couple branches fly over the fence, neighbor's yard was wide open. And used a sling to catch a couple a bit too big to handle..then cut 'em free...saves lowering them...ever hear of that simple trick TC? I guess not, as it is so gear intensive. Got all the way to within 10 feet of the top, timing the wind gusts, then handled the little top....I love wind!!!

No more comments on your old school stuff, about all that needs to be said had been said....just my personal history...climbing trees for 30 years, been there done that with old school...and believe me, gear is great....when needed. And cranes too boot! New school is where it is at. Period!!


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## rbtree (Mar 18, 2004)

Speaking of good old timers, I know a retired climber here in town, who had the reputation of being able to handle any tough tree. I think he worked for the pwr company at one time. If the job called for a crane, but there was no access, Floyd would be the "crane". Wish I got to see him climb...


..but very likely, the legend would come down to earth when seen at work.


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## rborist1 (Mar 18, 2004)

:Eye:


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

I still wanna know his lanyard set-up.


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## rbtree (Mar 18, 2004)

Shall I take a bow, craig ?? Never have I been called such a flattering name!! 

Hey TC, think your daddy'd lower trunk wood on this li'l specimen... with only a (manila?) rope.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Trees Company _
> *I've done hundred of trees through decks over million dollar homes... *




Thats amazing! Especially at such a tender age! I was only into my 4th year when I was your age. And even now, I've done maybe 3 or 4 removals thru decks.
Maybe you have more decks up there, eh?

So how did your difficult TD go today?


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## rbtree (Mar 18, 2004)

Ahh, but a million dollar home in the great white north is like, what, 79.95 in green backs.. 

Well, pre 2003 USD crash anyhoo....

And I've been climbing 30 years and doubt if I've done more than 20 trees in decks....and two growing through a house.


Anybuddy lookin' fer a trollin' motor???


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 19, 2004)

During a learning curve, time for some extras can seem dis-pro-portionate; once these strategies are polished, ready to load; know when to use'em; they are good habits i believe; and osme of the time thing can turn around. Especially when you take aim to do them consistantly quicker by virtue of their constant apllication and practice. Proper rope care etc. is older school than our tree strategies, used for centuries on ships with pulleys, bollards etc. We have grown to listen more to the manufacturers and testers of these lines we depend on.

Where are all the old Schoolers?

They learned the olde school rhyme:

There are olde climbers;
and there are bold climbers..........


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## BigJohn (Mar 19, 2004)

MB how come your hung up on lanyard? Maybe if you show him yours he'll show you his Anyway as you all know I don't see my lanyard as the most usefull tool on the saddle. I have one it's nice homade fly with a hard to find easy to use bulldog snap yall got to get one with a grigi for my long lanyard for larg removals and the same for small but I use friction hitch and pulley. This guy may not use a lanyard. I know my dad came from the old school and he didn't have a lanyard the saddle was a two D ring saddle no place for the lanyard. When I started climbing he called mine a chicken strap. I took this abuse and used my "chicken strap". It has its place if you need it fine. 

As JP offered I too am up for some weekend climbing with any of you out there who aren't too far me unless your paying airfair and pick me up at the airport.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2004)

I gotta thing for lanyards.


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## rbtree (Mar 19, 2004)

Out here, the term for a lineman's belted lanyard is "scare strap".

For the first couple years I climbed, it was all I had, if I recall. Talk about awkward..due to the slow procedure for adjustment.


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## SilverBlue (Mar 19, 2004)

Ok I know a lot of real climbers around the GTA and yes there still are the two bit operators with a saw and a rope, the old unionized city fellas who work a few ours a day for a full days pay and cash in on side work, many borrow the city's equipment overnight or they use their 011 cheapo saw with 10W30 for the bar. Worked fer Toronto municipality eh? Yeah we know how progressive Toronto works are with techniques and equipment.

Hey TC why don’t you PM me with your number and I’ll give you a call, I’m sure you have some great stories.


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## Matt Follett (Mar 19, 2004)

Silver Blue

I was waiting for you to jump in here before I did...

I think I may have heard of these guys... not sure though the name sounds like a 'company' name in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area for those of you unfimiliar with our affectionate tern for the Big Smoke) I've heard above before. (you know the 8/11 poster stapled to the telephone pole company)

TC your funny... I'm sure lot's of guys around the GTA would love to head to head with you and your dad, I don't think I've seen you out at any of the climbing comps (not that I am saying these fun days are where a climber is crowned).

Oh and with regards to gear, just to add fuel to the proverbial fire in terms of technology, do you pull your chipper with a horse!

Wow, I just got heated!!


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## BigJohn (Mar 19, 2004)

Hey don't start in on the horses. I'd love to bring my horse out help hall some chunks out of a back yard. I know there some new machines out there that could do the work. I think it would be quite a novalty to bring a horse out to a job. I am sure the people where I work would hire us just to see it. Maybe I am wrong cause I'm a horse lover.


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## Matt Follett (Mar 19, 2004)

Sorry I couldn't resist the comment.

I'm a big proponent of horse logging becuse of its low impact etc. And yeah growing up on a farm..., horses are cool, I'm sure they could be a great asset in a big back yard removal with no CRANE access to pull things over the house (sorry couln't resist there either...)


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## BigJohn (Mar 19, 2004)

Thats OK I too know what you mean. I find it hard resist as well at times. I think I am getting better at it. The president of Penn Del chapter of the ISA hasn't called the office about me in quite some time.


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## Dobber (Mar 19, 2004)

Add me to the whole Toronto crowd, would love to test my skills against the DAD and SON team.
I did 3 years worken contract For Toronto Hydro, trimming and removing some of the scariest trees around. As far as I am concerned, if you want to test your tecnical skills in removing a tree, Toronto back yards with 3 phases of 13.8 kv, plus underbuild, running under you [not to mention all the other obsticles in a back yard] is where its at.
If DAD and son are up to learning something, [and paying my wage] I can show them how a job is done with proper tools.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kurtztree _
> *JPS I am taking you up on the offer the next big tree I get if you wouldn't mind working on a Saturday. Okay Thank You *



Deal


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SilverBlue _
> *
> 
> Hey TC why don’t you PM me with your number and I’ll give you a call, I’m sure you have some great stories. *



Offer him a job so he can learn to climb sans-hooks.

You'll be doing the trees a favor.

Not that he would accept....


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## rborist1 (Mar 19, 2004)

:Eye:


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2004)

So wheres our boy? I was anxious to hear the tale of the killer TD he was gonna do.

Should we check an emergency room?


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## Dadatwins (Mar 20, 2004)

Wow what a thread! 7 pages of rip roaring fun. Been away from here a few days grinding and come back to see someone arguing against cranes and modern technique.  Makes me feel almost modern. I have done the rigging with rope and bull line thing and the heavy lifting and all that fun. Now its buckets and cranes and brush trucks with grapple to move stuff. First time I used brush truck back in '85 to load a truck I thought I was in heaven. Using a crane to take out 80' of tree in 5 cuts is the way to go. Of course some jobs still require some of those old-school technique but the new stuff does make life and job easier. Just ask my back and knees.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2004)

*TC's true identity...*


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 20, 2004)

I love this thread.


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## ArtB (Jul 20, 2004)

In view of the phrase "gear is great" this non-pro will add some history relative "knowing it all when mid-20's".

When 28 (1974) , normal day job was at an aerospace desk and moonlighted clearing a road with my old D2 cat. Had pulled hundreds of 20" plus alder down and 20 or so 24" and larger fir - D2 not big enough to push out the root balls - set a 3/4 wire rope choker at about 30 ft up and pulled'em over with pulley and 200 ft cable. All well and good, now I'm a smart young guy, etc., experienced, etc......... 
So, D2 clutch went, had to remove FOPs to get to clutch. Big snowstorm New years '73, a few alders leaning toward my own house. Hadn't 'had time' to put FOPs back on, but hey, this smart ass kid knows what's up, old school and all and have pulled 70-80 trees over (wait make that 10,000) ..... - anyway, woke up a few days later and 37 separate skull fractures, but survived.

Recently had to drop a couple of 150ft plus cottonwood in Renton WA backyard that were posing a threat to grandkids play area - found this site and got great advice on rigging, backcuts, correct to take them down, etc. , -- non of the 'old school guesses' from you pros. Am even such a chicken wutz now (DW saw me get hit 30 years ago and insists) that cables even got tensioned from 170 feet away with remote control winch on 6 total 5/8 cables - no risk for this "old school till hurt bad" 'boy'. 
Oh, yeah, even wutz enough also that DW wanted 'no climbing', so 70 ft high cable set by string over crotch with bow and arrow, followed by 1/8 WR which could pull the 5/8 wire rope.


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## ORclimber (Jul 21, 2004)

Old school?


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## ORclimber (Jul 21, 2004)

But it hurts to get on my knees without chaps on


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## a_lopa (Jul 21, 2004)

i dont think ive seen an old schooler on here yet,other than tree companys popa


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *I was working with shorts on the other day and putting my chaps on over my shorts.
> 
> It sure looked gay!....and I wasn't about to bend over
> ...



 

That woulda made for a GREAT pic for the Tree Huggers thread!


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 21, 2004)

Sore knee or hurt back? I kneel on one knee on big cuts and lean back. Keep those lumbar together!

And lopa if you saw me low-tech climb you may call me old school.


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## BigJohn (Jul 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *i dont think ive seen an old schooler on here yet,other than tree companys popa *



Really? I came from the old school. All that old schooling sure comes in handy when you get on a different truck or crew or left some things at home or shop. A balance of old school and new I believe is what makes me efficient and quick.


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## a_lopa (Jul 22, 2004)

actually i forgot about you john, i loved that thread were you asked murph if he had your phone no!i think that old schoolers,the hard core which i think you maybe(i havnt met you)are twice as quik than a very good new school.just with reading the tree sort of thing.


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## a_lopa (Jul 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *Sore knee or hurt back? I kneel on one knee on big cuts and lean back. Keep those lumbar together!
> 
> And lopa if you saw me low-tech climb you may call me old school. *



guy it would be good to see you in action old school,but you might change my ways to much,i think if you saw my climbing kit you would have a heart attack.i might even buy a macro adj soon


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## a_lopa (Jul 22, 2004)

there would be plenty of old schoolers on here,i bet if some crisp greenbacks were on offer thered be plenty of old spurs being strapped on,there out there even guy would be up there letting it rip if the bugs bunny was right there


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## murphy4trees (Jul 22, 2004)

I'll vouch for Big Jon's proficiency at old school..
We took down a pair of fairly big sweet gums and I only had the monster sling to block down the wood, so Jon proceeded to notch the trunk to set the lowering line... He was quick....

I asked him if he was punishing me for forgetting the small sling, by beatring up on my rope....

He replied "this isn't a rope"... He was right


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## a_lopa (Jul 22, 2004)

ill bet he did that job in no time,we had a little bit of payback this week did 2 resonable jobs today,told the guys that the last job which we started at 2.30 was 2 trees when it was 6 we use speed lines to pay each other back


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## hobby climber (Jul 25, 2004)

TC - Something to think about. When a man stops learning , he knows everything,(up to that point). If he continues his quest for knowledge, he'll soon find out that the more he learns...the less he realy knows! Only a fool stops learning. :jester: Now I'm not the most experienced climber in the world but in this forum, you have a lot of experienced climbers from around the world. Even after you insulted many of them, they still are offering you their help. Do whats best for the trees you climb. Good luck in your quest for greater knowledge.


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## SteveBullman (Jul 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *I was working with shorts on the other day and putting my chaps on over my shorts.
> 
> It sure looked gay!....and I wasn't about to bend over
> ...



mmmmmmmm carmen electra in a thong and chaps.
how much would you pay to have that as a grounds person.


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## John Stewart (Jul 27, 2004)

And people ask me why I am in favor of manditory certifaction with industry follow ups on these guys and companies!
These are the guys that make it bad on all of us
Tree Company you are going to bite off more than you can chew with these cowboy tatics
I say this with great concern for you and your Dad
Oh buy the way I know just about every company also in the GTA
Care to throw a name of your Dad or company out here and I will put some input in to this if the industry around here knows and respects you guys!
Be Safe
John


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## John Stewart (Jul 27, 2004)

Sorry if I copied some of you canucks on your replies
This dude got me ticked about 3 comments in and I broke the cardinal rule of jumpin in before I read them all!
John
P.S
Hey Matt glad your back

"what happened?"


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## John Stewart (Jul 27, 2004)

Ya thanks Rocky
Me feel stupid, duh


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## Ax-man (Jul 27, 2004)

It is about time for him to show up again, isn't it. Wonder what name he has cooked up to use this time?? Even better is what are some of the tall tales he is going to be telling us about Super Dad climber and his side kick Wonder Worker ground man. 

Larry


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## rb_in_va (Jul 28, 2004)

You can bet he is still lurking anonymously.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *i dont think ive seen an old schooler on here yet,other than tree companys popa *



i doubt any old schooler can be botherd to use one of them there computers


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## a_lopa (Jul 28, 2004)

trees company are you there my man,hows father?


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## Nickrosis (Jul 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Stewart _
> *Ya thanks Rocky
> Me feel stupid, duh *


Best to delete posts like that.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 29, 2004)

Perhaps I could help...

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13299


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## Nickrosis (Jul 29, 2004)

I meant he could delete it by himself. I do that pretty often if I don't like how something came out. Like NickfromWI, I edit posts right away after putting up pictures, but I also proofread them and edit them multiple times. If you edit after a minute has gone by, you get the little text at the bottom saying when you did.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 29, 2004)

Yea. A lotta people don't understand that. You can fix whatever you want.

I think it's a tad bit longer than a minute.


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## a_lopa (Jul 29, 2004)

if i got to edit well i got to edit


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## a_lopa (Jul 29, 2004)

im missing trees companys father....you got to respect the seatbelt ....and letting kids smsh crayfish into your bare hands...thats cool


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## John Stewart (Jul 29, 2004)

Hey Nick
I got no problem with making a mistake or saying something wrong.
It is what keeps this site real and if I wanted to watch what I said I would go to the buzz
Nobody is perfect and if you edit and delete every little statement you might as not make any statements cause someone will find something wrong with what you said anyways
It is human nature
But thanks for the tip!
Later 
John


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Stewart _
> * if you edit and delete every little statement *



Actually, I was refering to just trying to keep the basic english language recognizable, and hopefully, correct.

We don't wanna sound like a buncha loggers, eh?


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## John Stewart (Jul 29, 2004)

Whats rong with dat I speak it fluentlee!
 
John


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## Derek (Sep 4, 2004)

*dontknowwhereelestoputit*

Bump| Derek your up to page 5...

u wood off red it kwicer iv knot fer alls tha sshokken speln...

Derek edit that and put in a note

P.S try to save that "Dogpile" chit that jps put up somewhere that you can find it...


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## Derek (Sep 5, 2004)

*wheresalltheoldeditinggone*

has someone been editing this thread?? aussie??
Must of been a bump sos i'd find that dogpile chit That great reading jps, thanx

In fact the WHOLE thread would of been better reading...I hate being late....

Are ya learking somewhere tc?? time for round(i mean page) 11

or can you and your dad only handel 10 between you?

Figured your dad alone could handel 15...YOU well now theres a question for a poll......------.....---.-.-.-.yousguyz


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## Shaun Bowler (Sep 6, 2004)

Being a part of this "community" for a couple of years now has given me the perspective to share with you professionals this, I have been there, done that, and, SO WHAT?

RE: Lurkers...

You guys put it out there, and I thank you for it. 
I appreciate all that you share. I wish I had this forum when I started.
Great web site...


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