# Milling Dead Wood



## DTrap (Feb 22, 2016)

Hello,
I am wanting to get started doing some milling and have tons of large standing dead ash around my property. Like a hundred trees at least. Most have been dead at least 2-3 years and are nice and tall and straight. I was wondering if this wood can be milled reasonable with my Alaskan Mill. It seems like it would be really slow going and would dull the chains pretty fast. Thanks for any help and advice.


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## Quietfly (Feb 23, 2016)

Well i can't comment from experience since I've just received my milling set up yesterday, however what i can say is, everything I've read says that dried wood is tougher on your mill. With that in mind, I'd say keep an eye on your chain sharpness, and run slow and rich.
All perfectly generic Semi- useful advice.
I'm hoping the pros chime in with the real stuff sometime soon. 
 
Good Luck!
Post Pictures!!! 
-Chris


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## Mad Professor (Feb 23, 2016)

It will mill up fine but get to it. Ash will start rotting quick. Be careful of dry rot in milled boards/beams from standing dead. End coat the logs as soon as you buck them ash likes to end check. If you find rot sacrifice that log to the firewood God.


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## DTrap (Feb 23, 2016)

Mad Professor said:


> It will mill up fine but get to it. Ash will start rotting quick. Be careful of dry rot in milled boards/beams from standing dead. End coat the logs as soon as you buck them ash likes to end check. If you find rot sacrifice that log to the firewood God.



Sounds good. I will give some a try in a few weeks when I get some time. I have cut a ton in the past year for firewood and most have been rot free. Thanks for the advice.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 25, 2016)

I milled some dead, bark falling off Red Oak, and it was easier than green Hickory. That being said, if I could peel the bark off I'd do that. The bark holds lots of wind blown dirt and dust that dulls the saw. I find that I only get about 3 slabs and I have to touch up the chain. My slabs are 7 to 8 feet long and 27 to 35 inches wide, 3 inches thick, Joe.


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## DTrap (Feb 25, 2016)

Joe,
Thanks, I will be sure to peel the bark. It comes off very easy anyway. I cut a ton for firewood and almost all of the bark fell off when the tree hit the ground and the rest would just fall off when I split it. I sure hope it mills nice cause I have access to a ton of it within a hundred yards of my back porch.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 27, 2016)

I mill dead tree's all the time,







They make GREAT lumber,






I built this entire building out of several year old dead tree's, that I harvested and milled,






SR


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## DTrap (Feb 27, 2016)

Thanks SR that building looks great. Im gonna give some a try in a few weeks. I am looking forward to seeing how it comes out.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 27, 2016)

Don't forget to take some picts! 

SR


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## DTrap (Feb 27, 2016)

Will do for sure. I've never milled before but have wanted to for some time. Bought an 066 last week to dedicate to my 30" Alaskan mill so I'm getting ready to give it a go. Just gotta get some free time away from work now and get it done.


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## Promac555 (Mar 4, 2016)

rarefish383 said:


> I milled some dead, bark falling off Red Oak, and it was easier than green Hickory. That being said, if I could peel the bark off I'd do that. The bark holds lots of wind blown dirt and dust that dulls the saw. I find that I only get about 3 slabs and I have to touch up the chain. My slabs are 7 to 8 feet long and 27 to 35 inches wide, 3 inches thick, Joe.



Green Hickory is the work of the devil and should be avoided at all cost!!
Every day - last July (gulp) I had a contract job to board out a big Hickory tree and it was super hard on both me and the saw.
The job paid great and a huge bonus was that I was smart enough to save the sawdust and now every time I smoke a ham, that AWESOME Hickory smoke reminds me of that job and now it doesn't seem half as bad!!

Joe - I never thought about how some species had bark that would "hold" the wind blown dirt. I guy I knew once in PA referred to Chestnut Oak as "dirt Oak" because it left his bar and chain covered in brown crud. Now all that makes sense - freaking learn something every day!!! Thanks Joe !!


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 4, 2016)

Promac555 said:


> Green Hickory is the work of the devil and should be avoided at all cost!


 Really? I don't ming milling hickory at all!






It makes some GREAT lumber,






I wish I had more of it!






SR


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## Promac555 (Mar 4, 2016)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Really? I don't ming milling hickory at all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Promac555 (Mar 4, 2016)

Nice sarcasm Sawyer Bob -
I was talking about using a CSM to drive through a green Hickory tree - by hand.
As opposed to you bragging about your high dollar band saw mill and a tractor with trailer
and then "talking down" to the guys who mill "old school."
I don't see you in any of your photos, sweating and covered in sawdust and doing any work.
We should support every other person on this forum and - have I made my point?


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## Sawyer Rob (Mar 4, 2016)

Promac555 said:


> Nice sarcasm Sawyer Bob -
> I was talking about using a CSM to drive through a green Hickory tree - by hand.
> As opposed to you bragging about your high dollar band saw mill and a tractor with trailer and then "talking down" to the guys who mill "old school."
> I don't see you in any of your photos, sweating and covered in sawdust and doing any work.
> We should support every other person on this forum and - have I made my point?



WOW, if you think THAT is what "I" was doing, then you need to have another cup of coffee or beer??

That is NOT what my post was about at all, I made the post because it's the truth! I DO like hickory and I try to get every one that I can... And YES, I mill them with my BSM, but it sure as heck isn't a "high dollar machine", it's just a manual mill that I've had a LONG time and it's paid for itself several times over.

That's something anyone can do, if they think positive and work at it a little...

Sorry you are having such a bad day...

BTW, I started out using a chainsaw, to mill with...

SR


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## Quietfly (Mar 12, 2016)

So today was my first experience milling dead wood with the csm. Man what a pain in the arse, according to the forestry service guy this ash has been standing dead for about 3 years. It was illegally ringed, but no one ever came back to harvest it. 
I had to stop mid cut to resharpen the chain, and it was litterally like cutting rock. I nearly quit twice. Also as an aside wedging is super important!
Anyway here's some pictures.


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## DTrap (Mar 12, 2016)

Thanks for the confirming what I was afraid of. I have cut tons of dead ash around my area for customers and it eats my chains up. Some of the bigger ones over 25"-30" I have to stop and sharpen my chain after only bucking 6-8 logs. We had three houses in a row last fall which had 23 standing dead ash total. They paid to remove 14 and left the rest as they were far enough from the houses not to worry about them. It took 3 days just to log them all out and load them up after laying them down. I will probably stick with the cherry, oak, and locusts around the property before worrying about the dead ash for a while.


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## BobL (Mar 15, 2016)

Dry Ash has a Janka hardness of 1320 lb force.
For comparison, Radiata is 710 lb dry, and about 500 when Green.

The softest stuff I usually mill is a Eucalypt called Marri which has a green hardness of 1452 Lb,
Typically I'm milling in the 1750 lb force hardness range
The Tuart I milled last week is 2068 lb when it is green and 2400 when dry. Worse still, this tree sucks up a lot of soluble silica (sand) when it is water stressed and unless the logs have come out of a park or garden they are all water stressed in my area. The silica precipitates out in the wood and its like cutting in dirty wood all the way through the cut. Sometimes you can even see the odd spark as the chain hits a grain. 
Touching up is advisable after about every 32 sq ft of cut.
There's also a lot of stuff quite a bit harder.

With these hardnesses you learn how to sharpen or like you said "give up"
Have you tried progressive raker setting?
If you want a diagnosis of your chain cutters post a close up side on picture of some of your cutters - as close up as you can and still be in focus.


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## Quietfly (Mar 15, 2016)

I took these pictures after i sharpened the chain, and before you asked for a side view.


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## Quietfly (Mar 15, 2016)

Ive read your progressive raker posts, and have set all my rakers using the regular file raker tool. Id love to try progressive, but dont completely understand it.


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## DTrap (Mar 15, 2016)

I am just now getting decent at sharpening my chains. I always paid someone before last year as I never had time to mess with it. I finally decided last year that I wasn't happy with the way my chains would come back so I started working on it quite a bit more. I haven't tried the progressive raker method yet but am not ever opposed to learning something new especially if it is a better system.


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## BobL (Mar 15, 2016)

Quietfly said:


> Ive read your progressive raker posts, and have set all my rakers using the regular file raker tool. Id love to try progressive, but dont completely understand it.



Even though your photos are not side on I can tell you don't have enough raker depth. Standard 0.025" depth gauges are extremely conservative in their setting and use a geometry that makes things worse as the cutter wears. For optimum cutting speed the raker depth should not be a fixed distance (eg 0.025") but increase as the cutter wears. By the time my cutters get to what yours look like I'm using around 0.040". A basic guide is to set the raker depth to 1/10th of the gullet width. This is still a moderate setting and for more aggressive cutting try 1/9 or even 1/8. The value used depends on power, width of cut and how hard the wood is. A regular miller that used to frequent this forum (Mtngun) milled the timber for his barn using an 066 from narrow logs and he used 1/6th for his milling. There is a down side to using these settings and that is more vibe, a bit more bar and chain wear, and when out of the mill , a greater chance of kickback.

Everyone I know that has tried this never goes back to gauges.

The other way to find your optimum raker setting for a given situation is to swipe the rakers a few times and try the saw out, repeat this until the saw starts to grab. Measure the raker depth and gullet width.. Of course the actual measurements are not important but the ratio ( raker depth/gullet width) is what matters.


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## Quietfly (Mar 16, 2016)

@BobL do you have a link to a post or a video that shows how to do this? 
Im guessing that you mean i should measure the gullet with calipers, and then divide that number by what ever ratio i decide to use ( i was thinking 1/9 or 1/8) and then set the raker to that height. My question is where to measure the raker height from, and which gullet do i measure. Sorry for all the questions, but im still a new born when it comes to this.


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## Quietfly (Mar 16, 2016)

so i was able to find the answer to most of my questions , Here http://www.**********/talk/threads/chain-sharpening-book.104725/, It discusses everything you talk about , and provides me pictures/ diagrams. I'm going to try to find a FILE O Plate today and try to progressively file my rakers. 
Wish me luck. 
LOL i haven't even asked about square filing yet.....


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## BobL (Mar 16, 2016)

FOP's are semi-progressive but ay least they work (sort of) for longer through a chain life than regular gauges do. FOPs are also not very aggressive and they do not allow the operator to optimise their cutting speed. BUT if you can't be bothered with full progressive raker setting then FOPs are a worth getting



Quietfly said:


> measure the gullet with calipers, and then divide that number by what ever ratio i decide to use ( i was thinking 1/9 or 1/8) and then set the raker to that height.


That is one way of doing it and the raker depth can be measure using feeler gauges. I would not suggest starting on 1/9 or 1/8. Start at 1/10 and see how this goes.

Here's a link to a vid showing how I do it.


A couple of explanatory notes about the video.
Instead of measuring gaps and distances I'm using a Digital Angle Finder (DAF). 
The DAF is far quicker for raker depth setting and is are also useful for other aspects of milling, like measuring and eliminating twist in log rails
The gullet width to raker depth ratio of 1:10 corresponds to what I call a raker angle of 5.7º (lets call it 6º)
Lower raker angle is equivalent to higher ratios and VV
A ratio of 1:6 = 9.5º (this will rattle your teeth)
Well worn chain set with a standard raker gauge will have a ratio of 1:20 or about 3º
One of my friends once brought me his CS so I could investigate why it was not cutting. The rakers were down to less than 1º - 15 swipes on each raker and he was back in business. 
The video shows the initial setting up of a chain that has rakers that are all over the place.
Some of those raker angles were less than 3º (powder makers) and you will see how much filing was involved to get them down to 6ª
It's takes some time to set a chain up but the results are well worth doing.

I don't use the DAF this in the field. I swipe the rakers 2/3 times every 3/4 touch ups and this is usually enough to keep the chain cutting well.
I check the rakers with the DAF back in my shop after every 2/3 days of milling. Usually I am within 1º of the desired angle.

Using this method means it is not necessary to make all the cutters the same length - PROVIDED there is a random scattering of cutter lengths on the chain. Sometimes the cutters on one side (LHS or RHS) do end up differing in length compared to the other side - this is not good and needs to be corrected.


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## Quietfly (Mar 16, 2016)

So i have a daf and saw your description of using a daf to set the raker heights. Ill definitely keep you in the loop.


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## BobL (Mar 17, 2016)

I'd still like to see a size on picture of a couple of rakers/cutters.


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## Quietfly (Mar 17, 2016)

I'll take a few pictures tonight before i start the "operation".


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## Quietfly (Mar 18, 2016)

@BobL
Here are the side shots


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## Quietfly (Mar 18, 2016)

@BobL

Here is after i DAFed to between 6and 6.9


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## BobL (Mar 18, 2016)

Good to see you have sorted the raker problem and thanks for posting the pics because I can see your chain has other issues
Sorry I can manipulate and label photos at the moment as the graphics card on my laptop but at least I can stop post old photos.

The first things is that it is some sort of safety chain which I don't recommend for milling on a big saw as it reduces the ability of the saw to clear sawdust.
The next thing is your cutters do not have anywhere near as much hook as is necessary.
Some of them like this one even look like they have a negative hook, slope backwards instead of pointing forwards - see below





This will make the chain very slow cutting especially in hard/dry wood. It also adds unnecessary load on the engine and increased B&C wear.
Have a look at these. The top one is Will Malloff cutter and the lower one is mine


Also look at how angled my raker is. This is because it is a wide raker. If the raker is narrow like WMs it does not need to be as sloped as mine.
While cutting the raker actually penetrates slightly into the wood and increases the raker angle and enabling it to grab more wood.
If the raker top is flat you have to file a higher raker angle to grab the same amount of wood as a more pointed or sharp raker.
Raker shape is a second order issue but for those chain ultimate cutter speeds flat tops add more wood/chain friction and so should be avoided.
Sloped or curved have less friction.

I can see a fair bit of tie strap wear on your chain. This is consistent with the cutters having no hook and maybe no getting enough oil.
I'd recommend getting a non-safety chain and setting the rakers to between 6 and 7ª and shape the rakers as discussed - then go and cut some wood and report on what you experience.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 12, 2016)

BobL said:


> Good to see you have sorted the raker problem and thanks for posting the pics because I can see your chain has other issues
> Sorry I can manipulate and label photos at the moment as the graphics card on my laptop but at least I can stop post old photos.
> 
> The first things is that it is some sort of safety chain which I don't recommend for milling on a big saw as it reduces the ability of the saw to clear sawdust.
> ...




Bob: Just wanted to say thanks for all your knowledge. I and others are learning alot from most all of your discussions in this one and other threads. I'm *finally* getting it on the progressive raker grinding with your video on it. I'm hobby milling just two years. I'm going to start trying it. I especially like how using this you don't have to have each cutter exact same length as that is tedius to do and somewhat wasteful of cutters and chain life too. 

I may have a question for you. I have a couple chains now that want to cut non vertical as they cut. You end up with rounded cuts that are supposed to be straight just trying to cut straight down milling a log. One side of chain/blade is cutting more than the other side. After a bit, the blade won't cut at all and gets stuck in the log. These chains are sharp. The cutter lengths I set to all be the same. The rakers are pretty deep but not progressive, about 0.040 and are all the same. One chain is missing two teeth, but one on each side. The other chain is missing about 3 teeth from hitting some barb wire. I' thinking that is the problem, but the missing teeth make it more like a skip chain there, which doesn't have any problems by nature. Should I cut off some more teeth to make it more of a skip chain? Does it matter if it isn't perfectly symmetric skip, as long as total number of missing teeth is same on left vs. right sides of chain? My one is same number, but still has the problem. I'm using an Echo 60 cc cs-590 for milling at the moment, soon to use a cs-8000 80cc. US hardwoods like Ash, English Walnut, Maple. I want to use these milling chains as long as I can possibly. They are only about 1/3rd life gone on them now. Thx- Paul


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## Quietfly (Apr 12, 2016)

post pictures of your cutters and he'll be able to give you an evaluation.


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## DTrap (Apr 12, 2016)

Paul,
Do you have the oiler on the echo turned all the way up. The smaller saws often won't put out enough oil to keep everything working smoothly and will cause excessive wear on the chain and bar. Is the bar nice and straight. Could have got a small bend or twist in the bar and that is causing the trouble.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 12, 2016)

DTrap said:


> Paul,
> Do you have the oiler on the echo turned all the way up. The smaller saws often won't put out enough oil to keep everything working smoothly and will cause excessive wear on the chain and bar. Is the bar nice and straight. Could have got a small bend or twist in the bar and that is causing the trouble.



Funny you ask just exactly that. Well, i did. I have a 20" and a 28" bar for my cs-590. I had it set all the way, but messed with it and found I had the direction wrong on it. So I did mill with the 28" bar a bit on "low" setting instead of intended high setting as I had it backwards. And that 28" bar does have a very slight bend to it now that I am fixing after only about 500 sq ft of milling use. But only the very bottom of bar has any wear to speak of, but is just slightly darker color there. I did manually add oil to the bar every foot of milling with it also, so not without any oil. I'm also not sure that bar didn't get the bend from the Alaskan mill clamps on the bar. I kind of think they did it. Talking about maybe 1/8" at end of bar vs. other end so not terrible. 

Having said all of that, I also have two other older chains that want to not cut straight down vertically on another saw I have (42 cc Poulan). And those aren't missing any teeth at all. So there is something I'm not doing right and missing. Could be a couple root causes of the problems. I can grind the teeth sharp no problems and cut 1" streams of wood milling, but after 6 or so grindings, I'm messing things up as they don't want to let the saw cut straight anymore, just noodling a log down vertically by hand. 

I use a Dremel with some diamond impregnated grinder bits to do all my chain sharpening by hand. I use flat teeth fronts with not more than 10 degrees on them, or less for milling. - Paul


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 12, 2016)

Quietfly said:


> post pictures of your cutters and he'll be able to give you an evaluation.



Yes, pics maybe later on. I'm not setup at the moment to do photos well at all. By the way Quietfly, I have milled lots of hard white ash about 18" width, 8' long with just my 60 cc CS-590 last year. About 800 board feet of it or so, some dead at least two years. It cut it no problems, just took some time. I could do one pass in about 8 minutes. So I think if you can follow Bob's advice, you should be able to cut all that hard ash with your setup as your saw is much more powerful. A smaller bar also would increase your chain speed which would help due to less friction, as would considering using a full skip chain instead of a normal chain for less force required or torque required per spin around the bar from the saw. That would increase chain speed too. I found using the 28" with full skip, the CS-590 would cut just as fast speed or better milling than using normal non-skip chain with my 20" bar setup. - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 12, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Funny you ask just exactly that. Well, i did. I have a 20" and a 28" bar for my cs-590. I had it set all the way, but messed with it and found I had the direction wrong on it. So I did mill with the 28" bar a bit on "low" setting instead of intended high setting as I had it backwards. And that 28" bar does have a very slight bend to it now that I am fixing after only about 500 sq ft of milling use. But only the very bottom of bar has any wear to speak of, but is just slightly darker color there. I did manually add oil to the bar every foot of milling with it also, so not without any oil.


That's nowhere near enough oil - oil added to a chain on a one short operation lasts for 2/3 passes of the chain around the bar as it is rapidly flung off the drive and nose sprockets by the severe centrifugal forces. It time that translates to about 0.1 s before it needs more oil so the oil must be added continuously to be effective.



> Having said all of that, I also have two other older chains that want to not cut straight down vertically on another saw I have (42 cc Poulan). And those aren't missing any teeth at all. So there is something I'm not doing right and missing. Could be a couple root causes of the problems. I can grind the teeth sharp no problems and cut 1" streams of wood milling, but after 6 or so grindings, I'm messing things up as they don't want to let the saw cut straight anymore, just noodling a log down vertically by hand.


Thos chains have been run on an bar with bar rail tops not square to the side of the bar. This wears the underside of one side of the ties more than the other - after that the chain will never cut straight. Keeping the bar dressed square eliminates this problem


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## DTrap (Apr 12, 2016)

I had a feeling this might be the case. Glad Bob showed up to offer his info. Paul it isn't that hard to build a rudimentary auxiliary oiler that will help out a lot. Just need something to continually drip some oil near the edge of the bar after the chain rounds the tip. The oil will find its way to the edge of the bar and do its job.


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## BobL (Apr 12, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Yes, pics maybe later on. I'm not setup at the moment to do photos well at all. By the way Quietfly, I have milled lots of hard white ash about 18" width, 8' long with just my 60 cc CS-590 last year. About 800 board feet of it or so, some dead at least two years. It cut it no problems, just took some time. I could do one pass in about 8 minutes. So I think if you can follow Bob's advice, you should be able to cut all that hard ash with your setup as your saw is much more powerful. A smaller bar also would increase your chain speed


No it won't, the chains speed is determined by the RPM of the sprocket and the size of the sprocket.
Shorter bars do have less friction but having fewer cutters means they are used more often so go blunt faster - overall you won't see much difference between say a 25 and a 28" bar but you would of course see a difference if you went to 42"



> as would considering using a full skip chain instead of a normal chain for less force required or torque required per spin around the bar from the saw.


There is a poor understanding of how useful skip chain is on short bars.

What most folks don't understand is that not every cutter on a full comp chain takes the same size cut or chip. Saw chain does not operate like a wood plan sliding along the bar rails taking nice shavings. Saw chain porpoises up and down on the chain and carves out chips more like a chisel.

The first thing that happens is - [IN SLO MO] the cutter grabs a little wood. This lifts the cutter off the chain slightly and pushes the raker into the wood so digs in a little increasing the raker angle. The cutter then starts to bite more lifting the cutter more, the raker digs in a little more, further increasing the raker angle and this is repeated until the cutter can penetrate no further. By now the cutter is well above the bar rails. Except when noodling the chip is not shaved out, but pulled out by a combination of the engine power and chain tension. This, by the way, is why chainsaw injuries are so traumatic because the meat is literally pulled out !
The cutter behind the cutter that has grabbed wood does not grab as much wood, and the cutter behind that grabs even less wood. 
Then the cutting sequence starts all over again. This means in practice that full comp already acts like sort of skip chain.
Only in really long bars will skip make much difference.
Skip chains have fewer cutters so they grab wood more often and so go blunt quicker so the net effect is not as pronounced as people think.
The differences people observe are often due to the use of new chains, or chains with incorrectly set rakers.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 13, 2016)

BobL said:


> No it won't, the chains speed is determined by the RPM of the sprocket and the size of the sprocket.
> Shorter bars do have less friction but having fewer cutters means they are used more often so go blunt faster - overall you won't see much difference between say a 25 and a 28" bar but you would of course see a difference if you went to 42"
> 
> 
> ...



Hey guys and Bob: Thanks much for your replies. Bob: can you please answer my original question? What to do with my chain with a few teeth out of it: Should I cut off some more teeth to make it more of a skip chain? Does it matter if it isn't perfectly symmetric skip, as long as total number of missing teeth is same on left vs. right sides of chain? What should I do to get these chains usable again with the missing teeth?

I'll comment a bit on some of the other comments:

No it won't, the chains speed is determined by the RPM of the sprocket and the size of the sprocket.
Shorter bars do have less friction but having fewer cutters means they are used more often so go blunt faster - overall you won't see much difference between say a 25 and a 28" bar but you would of course see a difference if you went to 42"

Bob, not questioning "MAX SAW CHAIN SPEED POSSIBLE", which is controlled as you say by the RPM of the sprocket and size of the sprocket. But when buried deep in a log milling, and NOT HAVING A 80cc or huge saw doing it with huge torque, smaller saws WILL bog down in the cut as the friction of milling is high, especially if the streams of cuttings just can't get out and ACTUAL REALIZED chain speed then drops. What I was stating above was NOT OPINION. I am stating FACTS from running my saw this way in the same wood cutting it the same way. The 28" bar with full skip chain on my Echo CS-590 60 cc cut FASTER, more CONSISTENTLY, without BOGGING DOWN deep in the cut as with full normal tooth cutters with the 20" bar on it. This is a fact. Now we can all discuss and debate WHY this is, but it is a fact, and one I think can help this forum to consider. I believe it is mainly due to having the space on the chain to allow the streams of wood to actually get out of the cut much better with the full skip. AND the actual speed of the chain WAS much faster as the wood chips did not bog down the saw due to friction.

I'm sharing this here because not everyone milling has huge saws yet, and this was key for me to be able to cut the ASH well with a smaller saw. Lower the friction in the cut as much as possible to maximize the potential any saw has. I'm now of the opinion myself that FULL SKIP or at least SEMI-SKIP can make a much better ripping/milling chain than normal chains, just to allow the streams of wood an easy path to get out of the cut and not bog it down, more so with the horizontal cutting Alaskan type mills than vertical. It worked for me. I spent my first year milling with a little 42 cc saw. So I'm learning what matters with a little, low torque, lower power saw to mill. May be a different perspective than most people on this forum with only the giant milling saws... The Poulan with a semi-skip did fine with the vertical min mill up to 16" dia or so max.

The explanation on how the cutters work is excellent Bob and thanks for that!

Thos chains have been run on an bar with bar rail tops not square to the side of the bar. This wears the underside of one side of the ties more than the other - after that the chain will never cut straight. Keeping the bar dressed square eliminates this problem

Thanks, I will do some serious bar investigation on those chains/saw next. Could be. The bar isn't that old though or worn. Paint still all on it. I will do some careful inspections.

That's nowhere near enough oil - oil added to a chain on a one short operation lasts for 2/3 passes of the chain around the bar as it is rapidly flung off the drive and nose sprockets by the severe centrifugal forces. It time that translates to about 0.1 s before it needs more oil so the oil must be added continuously to be effective. and ... Paul it isn't that hard to build a rudimentary auxiliary oiler that will help out a lot.

Right, milling on "low" was not intended. Milling on "high" isn't bad though with the echo. It puts out alot of oil. I do need to make an auxilliary oiler for the big bar once I get the bend out of it and use it again. What I did without having that setup yet was to add a bit to the end of the blade every foot or so of cutting which did help a bit when I did it. Also let the saw cool down and idle a minute or so every foot this way. I've only cut about 300 board feet so far with my 24" Alaskan Mk2 Mill using the 28" bar. All my previous milling was just with the top down mini mill that pivots on the bar. I've found with that, it requires less saw size and less oil to mill well than with the horizontal milling with the Alaskan. I think again because the chip streams can easily get out of the cut vertically vs. horizontally, plus the binding on the saw blade isn't there with vertical cuts, as with horizontal the wood slab will press down on the blade while cutting more (even with wedges moved frequently). Low friction is good, high is bad, unless you have a giant saw and it doesn't matter much.

One more quick question: What oil type is best for milling? I've heard car oil like 10W-30 is terrible, bad, don't do it! And I've also heard the lower viscosity is great for milling and getting where it needs to be. What does the forum recommend?

thanks all - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 13, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Hey guys and Bob: Thanks much for your replies. Bob: can you please answer my original question? What to do with my chain with a few teeth out of it: Should I cut off some more teeth to make it more of a skip chain? Does it matter if it isn't perfectly symmetric skip, as long as total number of missing teeth is same on left vs. right sides of chain? What should I do to get these chains usable again with the missing teeth?



I don't think it really matters if there is a tooth or two missing on a chain as long as they are not adjacent to each other



> Bob, not questioning "MAX SAW CHAIN SPEED POSSIBLE", which is controlled as you say by the RPM of the sprocket and size of the sprocket. But when buried deep in a log milling, and NOT HAVING A 80cc or huge saw doing it with huge torque, smaller saws WILL bog down in the cut as the friction of milling is high, especially if the streams of cuttings just can't get out and ACTUAL REALIZED chain speed then drops.



Sorry I read it as Max speed. I agree freshly sharpened skip chain will maintain a higher chain speed in a cut, and a smaller cc saw with a longer bar may only ever be able to cut that full width with a skip chain. Although they don't scale exactly there's some similarities between a 50 cc saw with a 30" bar and a 100cc saw with 60" bar

However some of the "cutting speed" skip chain gains by extra chain speed may be lost because there are fewer cutters removing wood. If the chain has fewer cutters and the CS is up to it then it may be possible to get the cutters to grab more wood by lowering the rakers - but of course this will drop the chain speed and blunten the cutters faster so it/s swings and roundabouts again.

If the max chain speed generated by the saw can be cranked up by increasing engine rpm and using larger sprockets (like on hot saws) then skip chains have a definite advantage which is why skip are used on hot saws. But milling is not like a sprint, its more of a marathon. Skip chains have fewer cutters so have to go blunter quicker, which hot saws running for a few seconds don't care about. I admit I haven't tried skip on anything shorter than 42" and a 111cc saw in hard hardwoods so maybe in softer woods bluntness is less of an issue. It would be good if someone was to time some milling cuts comparing skip and full comp chain. I couldn't detect any difference on narrow cuts but that was probably due to plenty of engine power while several times I recall my skip chains struggling to get to the end of a wide cut on a long log. I've not had this with full comp chain.

The other way to get increased chain speed in the cut is to run a smaller chain like the lopro. Its my standard chain on my 441 - like you say less friction



> > Thos chains have been run on an bar with bar rail tops not square to the side of the bar. This wears the underside of one side of the ties more than the other - after that the chain will never cut straight. Keeping the bar dressed square eliminates this problem
> 
> 
> Thanks, I will do some serious bar investigation on those chains/saw next. Could be. The bar isn't that old though or worn. Paint still all on it. I will do some careful inspections.



It doesn't take much to kick it over. I have one of those chains for my 441 - I just let it go too far and theres naught I can do about it




> I've found with that, it requires less saw size and less oil to mill well than with the horizontal milling with the Alaskan. I think again because the chip streams can easily get out of the cut vertically vs. horizontally, plus the binding on the saw blade isn't there with vertical cuts, as with horizontal the wood slab will press down on the blade while cutting more (even with wedges moved frequently). Low friction is good, high is bad, unless you have a giant saw and it doesn't matter much.



I agree about the vertical mill. Mine is able to cut using the back of the bar which fires the sawdust straight onto the ground
If you want to experience friction from poor sawdust removal try making a long blind cut with a saw held vertically (i.e. no bar nose poking out the other side of the cut).
Like this





If not enough sawdust is ejected and there is a need to deepen the cut then the residual sawdust really chokes the cutting action. It's a bit like trying to make a cut with a whole lot of small wooden balls in the way



> One more quick question: What oil type is best for milling? I've heard car oil like 10W-30 is terrible, bad, don't do it! And I've also heard the lower viscosity is great for milling and getting where it needs to be. What does the forum recommend?



Old engine oil is full of gunk and makes a real mess.
New engine oil is fine (Lucas mill slabbers with 6o" bars use it neat) for lower speed chains but for higher speeds some tackifire is needed.
I used to use premium bar oil in the saw, and to save a few $$ , canola in the Aux oiler but over a couple of years the canola made a real mess of the mill.
I now use re-cleaned engine oil with tackifire added to my specification in both[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## Adamant (Apr 13, 2016)

There are a lot of things that can cause curving in the cut. My B&C was diving and binding ie. By the end of the cut the bar is being pushed down so hard (by the extra thickness of the slab between the mill and the B&C) that I sometimes could not even finish the slab. So, things to check


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## Adamant (Apr 13, 2016)

Sorry, always seem to accidentally post before finishing. Anyway, short answer: buying a chain grinder fixed my problem... sort of. So , some things to check: *uneven bar wear* (can be bar rail tops not square with bar sides, but also after a while the inside surfaces of the rails wear unevenly so the top of one rail can be thinner than the other) this leads to the chain angling more to one side than the other. *Uneven chain sharpening*, this was where the grinder came in handy. I'm just not good enough at hand filing to get the consistency required (all angles and hook) to eliminate the chain as the problem. *Bar, mill rails and tracks flat, straight and in parallel planes. *A combination square or vernier callipers and straight edge check distance vertically between the bar and bottom of mill rails at front and rear of bar at both ends


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## Adamant (Apr 13, 2016)

It's so fiddly doing this on my phone! Keep hitting post ! Grr! Check mill rails are parallel to each other also. And if bar is parallel with mill in direction of travel is it flat along its length, not bowed up by mill or weight of power head and not sagging down under its own weight (this can affect the angle of the chain). Like Bob said, check the straps on the chain for uneven wear comparing one side to the other. Even small differences will matter.

I believe the biggest single thing is uneven chain sharpening, followed by bar rails not square or splayed. Good luck. I probably have the least experience but I spent a lot of time on this one problem.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 14, 2016)

BobL said:


> I don't think it really matters if there is a tooth or two missing on a chain as long as they are not adjacent to each other
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Bob: Many thanks for your thorough replies. Lots of great information, as the norm!

Good discussion on the skip chain. YES, with 1/2 the cutters, they will and do wear down and need a resharpening more rapidly. This is a very small tradeoff for me as I could not do it at all in 28" otherwise. I found I could cut easily 2 passes in my English Walnut, which was 8' long and 22" wide at the greatest in the log before needing a touch up. Could almost do 3 passes. Not bad. I really had to do the same thing when I used the 20" bar and normal chain though too. Using the Dremel with the diamond coated grinder bits, I can sharpen a tooth in 3 passes in about 20 seconds each tooth and I don't take the chain off the saw. So sharpening for me is not a big deal. The max blade they recommended for the echo cs-590 was 27" by Echo. So using a 28" on it, *and* milling with that, I am pushing beyond what the manufacturer said you could even do. So I bought full skip and it works just great on it. I did not even buy normal non-skip chain for the 28" bar and probably won't for it. Now I might though when I get my new to me old cs-8000 going at 80 cc. as they can share bars/chains. If I do might be a good "timed" excercise between them, but don't have any normal chain for now there.

I really like that beam structure for that top down mill! and the way it clamps to the bar. I used a 2x4 for mine but it worked fine. Planar accuracy not perfect, but I cut pretty thick slabs and will plane and joint them when dry, so doesn't matter too much for me. I can see how not getting the chips out would make that cut really hard to do there. I would not ever try to do that milling, any way you wanted to unless there was just no choice.

I think for new people wanting to mill I want to share a few thoughts as I am only now on year 2 of it: I can recommend rather than going whole hawg into it with a giant 80cc + saw, start out more like I did: 1. Get a beam machine or similar top down mini mill like above to learn how to do it and what matters with a smaller saw or whatever you have, 40 cc +. If you blow it up also, much less entry cost to the milling hobby as you're learning things. 2. Start on less wide wood like 6" or 8" wide first. 3. Learn how to safely do the cut while milling. Basically, entry and exit of the ends of the log are the hardest parts to be safe about. It is trapped in the middle after that and more safe to use. Learn how to be totally safe before using that giant saw and milling 16" + wide boards. 4. Learn about how to sharpen chains to be *really* sharp. This is required for milling really and absolutely needed to cut hard woods with smaller size saws. I spent my first year milling learning how to do this part. I recommend doing at least some yourself with a hand file or Dremel hand grinder. I think you just can't replace the "feel" of what you are doing using a full grinder machine all the time with the more manual process. 5. Learn about Bob's raker method too. I missed that part and now see how my not quite same length cutters and "variable" raker depth as I was putting different sorts of front side rounds on mine not controlled at all for progressive angle could be causing variable cuts per tooth. I was just controlling normal raker depth with normal methods and squaring off the top to depth. This may be part of my chain problems I can try to fix next. 6. Also don't forget the bar, which i did a bit on some of mine. 7. This sort of process helped me learn all about friction and sharpness and "actual" chain speed in a cut well. Now I'm more ready to handle bigger cuts with a bigger saw, which I'll do soon with a CS-8000 once I get it going. The Echo Cs-590 at 60 cc makes a *great* hobby milling saw for most people! I would highly recommend getting one of those to start with milling! I could use mine forever for it, but want to see what an 80cc class saw can do next. Look for the rare 30% off coupon deal from Zoro Tools (division of Grainger). I got my new Cs-590 for about $330 during that sale, a super deal. Sign up for their email deals. They usually do this on cyber Monday after Thanksgiving for a day only. 8. Learn about how to *fix* and repair small engines and saws at least a little bit yourself. I do whatever myself completely whenever I can. It is about learning but also then better understanding how it all works together after you have learned. Bob is a great example of this concept, how doing it all yourself leads to learning and then mentoring others too. I love that! 9. Lastly, be sure to learn how to grind milling or ripping chain teeth vs. normal crosscutting chain teeth. People say you can cut with whatever, but milling teeth makes a *huge* lower cutting friction difference than normal teeth when milling with a smaller saw. If you can fit the smaller width chain on your saw as Bob mentioned above, that is great too, but I would absolutly use milling chain, which is flat on the front of the teeth and with little angle vertically at the tooth edge, 10 degrees or less. This also is one less angle to worry about when hand grinding the teeth to sharpen and it is easy to just get one angle the same (harder to get two the same by hand but I can do it after practice).

So it is now clear to me what I need to do next: Properly go over each of my problem chains/bars again using your progressive raker settings and check for uneven wear on the chain and the bar. Also finish straightening out my one bar. This all may take me a while as I got two little kids! Yikes! And just a hobby. But I want to get back into finishing a 100 year old English Walnut I've been working on in next few months.

Thanks again Bob! - Paul


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 14, 2016)

Adamant said:


> It's so fiddly doing this on my phone! Keep hitting post ! Grr! Check mill rails are parallel to each other also. And if bar is parallel with mill in direction of travel is it flat along its length, not bowed up by mill or weight of power head and not sagging down under its own weight (this can affect the angle of the chain). Like Bob said, check the straps on the chain for uneven wear comparing one side to the other. Even small differences will matter.
> 
> I believe the biggest single thing is uneven chain sharpening, followed by bar rails not square or splayed. Good luck. I probably have the least experience but I spent a lot of time on this one problem.



Adam, thanks for your *many* cell phone replies above! 

Yes, everything you said. I have a set of mics and calipers and will be doing this thorough inspection next. I do know *now after the fact* my Alaskan wasn't set up just perfect distance above bar at front to rear of it. Off maybe an 1/8" of inch before. I don't know if that helped create the bend or not, but when I clamped down the Alaskan, it may be put in the bend. Then running it just a little hot messing up the oil setting may have helped to set that bend in. I have to figure out how to get the bar straight next. I don't think this bar has much wear but I need to check everything. I have other bars/chains though I have used alot with wear and I'm sure I'll find some things there when I get to it. Right now, my milling or chain saw hobby time is only about 20 hours a month at the most free, so may take me some time! I have a 4 year old boy and a 2 year old girl later in life! Yikes! Takes a lot of time, but even more rewarding than a curly pattern in a 20" wide 8' board you just opened up!  - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 14, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Using the Dremel with the diamond coated grinder bits, I can sharpen a tooth in 3 passes in about 20 seconds each tooth and I don't take the chain off the saw. So sharpening for me is not a big deal.



While it's better to be careful than not, 20s sounds like a longish time per cutter using a diamond dremel. Just using a file in a file guide my touch ups take 4 seconds per cutter. A full comp 42" bar has 68 cutters so that's about 272 secs which is about 3.5 minutes. If you really need 20 seconds it could be you are letting the chain get too blunt or you are removing too much metal. All that is needed is to remove enough metal to remove the edge glint.



> I really like that beam structure for that top down mill! and the way it clamps to the bar. I used a 2x4 for mine but it worked fine. Planar accuracy not perfect, but I cut pretty thick slabs and will plane and joint them when dry, so doesn't matter too much for me. I can see how not getting the chips out would make that cut really hard to do there. I would not ever try to do that milling, any way you wanted to unless there was just no choice.


It wasn't really milling - that was carving some park bench furniture.



> So it is now clear to me what I need to do next: Properly go over each of my problem chains/bars again using your progressive raker settings and check for uneven wear on the chain and the bar. Also finish straightening out my one bar. This all may take me a while as I got two little kids! Yikes! And just a hobby. But I want to get back into finishing a 100 year old English Walnut I've been working on in next few months.


 Kids - my "ne and only" had left home by the time I got into milling and SWMBO rediscovered horses. so I had a lot of spare time to put into it even when I was working.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 14, 2016)

Wow you are fast, my internet ink electrons didn't even dry on the screen yet Bob! 

Well, I say 20 seconds, that is really 1.357 seconds per pass per tooth and 15.929 seconds per tooth of making sure the angle and start of cut are just what I want on that tooth before I have the courage to move the Dremel forward just slightly to do the job!

Ah, carving the park bench makes sense as it almost looked like that blade would have cleared the log diameter if tried. Very good.

Yeah, we had lost two babies to miscarriage younger and told we couldn't have kids. Later found on the 2nd just needed a hormone lacking. Later still ended up having our first at 43 each! Yikes! Then ran across a drug baby up for adoption and we went for it as we had the one and how hard can two be than just one! All the brochures said it would be easy! So have an almost 2 year old baby girl addicted to drugs at birth. She was stoned the first month of her life. Doing pretty well now but refuses to talk much! Or do anything she is told to do! Though she understands fine! I'm hoping this aspect improves as she grows and later becomes a teenager! So at 47 each, we got two under 5! Yikes! By the way, Red River Birch comes out with a beautiful pink interior color. I'm going to make some girl stuff with it for the baby girl. My "shop" is woodworking. The milling is to get my own free wood for my woodworking hobby! - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 14, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Well, I say 20 seconds, that is really 1.357 seconds per pass per tooth and 15.929 seconds per tooth of making sure the angle and start of cut are just what I want on that tooth before I have the courage to move the Dremel forward just slightly to do the job!



1.357 + 15.929 = ~18s , so what's the other 2 seconds for?


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 14, 2016)

BobL said:


> 1.357 + 15.929 = ~18s , so what's the other 2 seconds for?



Ah, recall I said 3 passes per tooth. 1.357 x 3 + 15.929 = 20s

Note, the error in my measurements above is +/- 0.843s per pass, depending on how hasty I am feeling at the time to get the work done or whether the exhaustion of the work requires a quick sip of brew before the next pass gets done. 

(I am actually a mechanical engineer in real life Bob, as you can probably discern from my accuracy in my numbers above and my focus on friction, but I didn't want to focus on that here, as I have much to learn about things too and people get all touchy when they know they are talking to an engineer. I've put engine parts into production though and I actually have a couple patents. Not small engines like these cute little saw engines though! We can all learn from each other something or many things, every day. I've learned a lot from you and others here so far and sharing just a few things I can pass on along the way! ) - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 14, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Ah, recall I said 3 passes per tooth. 1.357 x 3 + 15.929 = 20sl


OK



> Note, the error in my measurements above is +/- 0.843s per pass, depending on how hasty I am feeling at the time to get the work done or whether the exhaustion of the work requires a quick sip of brew before the next pass gets done.
> (I am actually a mechanical engineer in real life Bob, as you can probably discern from my accuracy in my numbers l


A scientist would write 20.000 s



> above and my focus on friction, but I didn't want to focus on that here, as I have much to learn about things too and people get all touchy when they know they are talking to an engineer. I've put engine parts into production though and I actually have a couple patents. Not small engines like these cute little saw engines though! We can all learn from each other something or many things, every day. I've learned a lot from you and others here so far and sharing just a few things I can pass on along the way! ) - Paul


Yep we're all learning. 
When I joined here in 2007, 3 members I learned a lot from were WoodShop and AggiewoodButchr and Mtngun. AggiewoodButchr's CSM mods are what inspired elements of BIL mill. 
Woodshop's jigs and the crafty things he made with the wood he milled ere legendary. Its a shame their photos are gone and they are not still on the forum.
Any good point - being able to see an application of one process/part to another is


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 14, 2016)

Yeah, what is up with that? The site lost all its old photos? Not good. That is what backups are supposed to be for. I would love to see all their posts. 

I'm not a scientist. I just round up or use my thumb!  - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 15, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> Yeah, what is up with that? The site lost all its old photos? Not good. That is what backups are supposed to be for. I would love to see all their posts. I'm not a scientist. I just round up or use my thumb!  - Paul



The site was compromised in 2013 and all the images were lost. For about a year members were able to reinsert their own pics and I did reinsert a few of mine, Fortunately I keep copies of all my pics and I post almost identical pics and posts on another site so I could find them all quite easily.


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## Pauls_Workshop (Apr 15, 2016)

BobL said:


> The site was compromised in 2013 and all the images were lost. For about a year members were able to reinsert their own pics and I did reinsert a few of mine, Fortunately I keep copies of all my pics and I post almost identical pics and posts on another site so I could find them all quite easily.



So I went over today and reread the whole Milling 101 thread. I'm so glad Bob you took the time and effort to reload your photos there. The bit on the details of the chain sharpening is just gold. I did NOT realize you like not quite 0 degree top plate as Madoff suggests but just slightly higher. I'll employ that as well as I've been doing Zero. I have read Madoff's book. Also the bits on the other details of Madoff vs Bob method. Just fascinating stuff in there! I've become "good" at my manual chain sharpening for milling but I hope to get to "great" now with this knowledge once I can apply it correctly. You may go and have a beer sir!

I may try to run my 8000 an hour or two this weekend and see how it does vs the cs-590. I like to also sometimes just "noodle" my way down a log vertically by hand without any guide rails when doing smaller dia shorter logs. I have some maple I need to get cut as they've been sitting out all winter and may noodle a bit with the 8000. I find I can get to about +/- 3/16" planar accuracy just noodling a 5' long log or so and not take any setup time for any mill at all. After drying/warping, that is accurate enough for me as it will go through jointer/planer later on. I like to at least get one cut in them down the middle to begin the drying process right as soon as possible. You would find some of my hobby milling humorous Bob compared to your serious Aussie trees! Wow! But I refuse to throw any good wood away to be burned or composted!

So far here is some of what I've milled (some of which you cannot buy from lumber yards here in the US at all):

Hawthorne (really hard and strong stuff that blacksmiths would use to burn in their forge hotter than almost anything else), Dogwood (very strong bushy small tree), Silver Maple, English Walnut, Apple, Plum, White Ash, Black Walnut, and a favorite in Black Locust, another horribly hard wood to cut at all much less mill! The sparks fly there and a dull chain doesn't just not cut, it bounces off like rain! Some of mine is spalted too lihe the Hawthorne and some Ash, just some beautiful grain varieties all for future woodworking projects once it all dries. Oh left out a bit of Red River Birch, beautiful pink grain color there. Will do more of that soon. Later in the summer I will tackle a giant Black Cherry tree at my sister's that has to come down, two big trunks, about 25" dia each at the base and about 80' tall. Perhaps the biggest Cherry I've ever seen. And finish up my English Walnut this season. For my hobby, two-three big trees is the whole year! - Paul


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## BobL (Apr 15, 2016)

Pauls_Workshop said:


> So I went over today and reread the whole Milling 101 thread. I'm so glad Bob you took the time and effort to reload your photos there. The bit on the details of the chain sharpening is just gold. I did NOT realize you like not quite 0 degree top plate as Madoff suggests but just slightly higher. I'll employ that as well as I've been doing Zero.


If you use a grinder and can accurately set zero top plate filing angle then that's fine. It's just that it is difficult to do that by filing and if he angle is less than zero that is not good as it slews the cutter towards the middle of the bar so that it cuts a narrower kerf. This is less of an issue when the cutters are long (and wide) but as the cutters get shorter they cut a narrower kerf so a <0º TPFA can end up jamming the bar - not a good thing to happen on a SCM



> I have read Madoff's book. Also the bits on the other details of Madoff vs Bob method. Just fascinating stuff in there! I've become "good" at my manual chain sharpening for milling but I hope to get to "great" now with this knowledge once I can apply it correctly. You may go and have a beer sir!


Cheers.


> I may try to run my 8000 an hour or two this weekend and see how it does vs the cs-590. I like to also sometimes just "noodle" my way down a log vertically by hand without any guide rails when doing smaller dia shorter logs.



Yeah its fun, at least for a while


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