# Fecon/Rayco Deutz engine issues



## driftless (Jan 13, 2009)

Hi all,

I'm dealing with a Fecon/Deutz engine failure. If anyone on here is dealing with, or has experienced, a similar failure (or a Rayco/Deutz failure), please contact me.

Jesse Bennett
[email protected]


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## CentaurG2 (Jan 13, 2009)

You will need to give us a little more information. I have run Deutz diesels in the past and they are almost indestructible. What problems are you having??


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## TDunk (Jan 13, 2009)

CentaurG2 said:


> You will need to give us a little more information. I have run Deutz diesels in the past and they are almost indestructible. What problems are you having??



That's kind of what i was thinking. The only time i've ever seen those go bad is from operator error.


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## driftless (Jan 13, 2009)

Those having this issue will know what I'm talking about. Fecon FTX90s and Rayco C87s were made with Deutz engines that deliver fuel incorrectly and fail prematurely. They replace the original with a Deutz EMR engine or a Yanmar. I'm dealing with one now and looking for others with similar experience.

Jesse Bennett
[email protected]


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## Curbside (Jan 13, 2009)

The only time I've seen problems with the Deutz is when Bobcat used them in the large frame loaders. The owners who ran the crap out of them seemed to have no problems the ones that let them idle for long times and treated them real nice seemed to have problems. The word I know about the Deutz is treat it bad and punnish it and they run forever.


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## CentaurG2 (Jan 13, 2009)

The old stationary Detroit’s were reported to have similar problems. If left to idle, the diesel would “wash” down the cylinder and quickly ruin the motor. Either off or max RPM and they were fine. Sorry to hear about your troubles but I will look out for these engines in the future.


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## TDunk (Jan 13, 2009)

CentaurG2 said:


> The old stationary Detroit’s were reported to have similar problems. If left to idle, the diesel would “wash” down the cylinder and quickly ruin the motor. Either off or max RPM and they were fine. Sorry to hear about your troubles but I will look out for these engines in the future.



I was told by an old time truck driver that to drive a detroit,you have to slam your hand in the door and drive pissed all day. That is the only way to drive them.


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## Mowingman (Jan 13, 2009)

I have heard about that engine problem in the Fecon/Rayco units. If you look at for sale adds, you see those models and they all say they have xxx hours on the machine, but a lower hour engine in them. The reason is, as was stated. There is a problem with that engine in those model of mulchers.
I believe some Carlton stumpo grinders also had failures on their Deutz engines.
Jeff


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## JohnH (Jan 13, 2009)

Knock on wood ours is still holding together. We have 1250 hrs on it. I have heard of a lot of engine faliures.


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## mini14 (Jan 14, 2009)

http://deutzdieselengine.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1448sQ83GrY


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## TDunk (Jan 14, 2009)

mini14 said:


> http://deutzdieselengine.com/
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1448sQ83GrY



Huh, learn something new everyday.


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## CentaurG2 (Jan 14, 2009)

Man that just plain stinks. I have always had nothing but good things to say about deutz but that is a real eye opener. I hope everything works out for you guys.


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## Curbside (Jan 14, 2009)

Boy oh boy. If this is the case I think Carlton has a lot of explaining to do. At this point my respect level is at zero. If they are monitoring this site they better start doing some speaking.


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## Curbside (Jan 14, 2009)

I just looked at the manuel and sure enough it says not to operate at more than 25 degrees. How can anyone do stumps and not go to 25 degrees or greater on many many jobs. I live in the flatest area on earth in the bald ase prairies and I have my machines on inclines greater than that all the time. Grinder good only working in a parking lot as long as it doesn`t have to climb over a curb. Sure glad I`m running a Vermeer SC60 in that horsepower range cause I know I would have blown that engine 200 times over.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 15, 2009)

Curbside said:


> I just looked at the manuel and sure enough it says not to operate at more than 25 degrees. How can anyone do stumps and not go to 25 degrees or greater on many many jobs. I live in the flatest area on earth in the bald ase prairies and I have my machines on inclines greater than that all the time. Grinder good only working in a parking lot as long as it doesn`t have to climb over a curb. Sure glad I`m running a Vermeer SC60 in that horsepower range cause I know I would have blown that engine 200 times over.



I ran a Vermeer 352 and now a Bandit 2100 and they both have 30 degree limits on them


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## epicklein22 (Jan 15, 2009)

You would think that these engines would be equipped with an automatic shut off switch if the oil level/pressure is low......but overall, this is a problem for both Deutz and Carlton. They were not on the same page and put out a faulty product.

We have a rayco at my my summer job with a deutz. It is in the shop now, but I don't know why. Looks like an investigation is in order.


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## Oly's Stump (Jan 15, 2009)

I always thought they were great motors until I watched the video. Are all the Deutz motors in grinders have the same 25-30 degree restriction. I have the Carlton 8018 and the Rayco RG50 Super with duetz motors but luckly have had no problems. I know I went on inclines at or over 30 degrees.


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## Oly's Stump (Jan 15, 2009)

Sure enough I just checked my manuel and there it was (engine not warranty if used over 25 degree angle). I will remember this at my next purchase.


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## Curbside (Jan 15, 2009)

For the Vermeer 352 to have that restriction doesn't make any sense as just the motor movement on the machine at its deepest or highest point is going to be near 25-30 degrees.


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## pdqdl (Feb 5, 2009)

Some years back I measured the slope of the steepest grade that my John Deere 955 4 wheel drive tractor could climb with turf tires on it: 28° 

No way would I operate a stump grinder on that hill. Given that most stump grinder engines get rotated downward when grinding, I think that 30° is a pretty reasonable slope for an engine to run on.

I am told that Case backhoes have an oil pump on the front and rear of the engine to prevent that sort of problem.


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## Aaron Taylor (Mar 7, 2009)

*Rayco, Fecon, and Deutz*

Jesse, I have been through my fifth Deutz engine in a Rayco 87FM. All under warranty. They have lasted as little as 28 hours and as many as 150 hours. Machine has been well maintained. The last one installed was an electronic injected engine. These are still a new item to Deutz with some kinks to work out. The one being installed at this moment will be a Yanmar. All have been said to have failed due to engine issues. Rayco and Fecon have been battling these issues, Fecon decided to change any machine with a Deutz 87 horse to a Yanmar, be it at operator's request or engine failure, Rayco pretended that there were no long term issues. Operators were caught in the middle.


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## dyedfuel (Nov 16, 2009)

I can't for the life of me understand why operators, (especially _owner operators_) don't read the manuals their equipment comes with until there's a failure. I contacted the person that made the Carlton YouTube video and also posted the Deutz site, because he _inaccurately_ stated in his video that the angle restriction wasn't clearly stated in his manual. The manuals are available for download on Carlton's site, and the restriction is listed in at least two places. He also says Deutz "doesn't know" how the allowable angle is calculated, but yet oddly enough they do provide a specification.

He's upset because Carlton doesn't warranty the Deutz engine, and Deutz won't warranty it either. Unfortunately, engine manufacturers _never_ give warranty coverage when the engine had been used in a manner that the manufacturer clearly states is improper. If he had a case, he'd take it to court. If he provides what he's already said on video as proof to support his case, he's *s-o-l*...and he knows it.

Always read the manuals your machinery comes with, (_all of them_), before you ever turn the key.

;-)


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## redprospector (Nov 16, 2009)

dyedfuel said:


> I can't for the life of me understand why operators, (especially _owner operators_) don't read the manuals their equipment comes with until there's a failure. I contacted the person that made the Carlton YouTube video and also posted the Deutz site, because he _inaccurately_ stated in his video that the angle restriction wasn't clearly stated in his manual. The manuals are available for download on Carlton's site, and the restriction is listed in at least two places. He also says Deutz "doesn't know" how the allowable angle is calculated, but yet oddly enough they do provide a specification.
> 
> He's upset because Carlton doesn't warranty the Deutz engine, and Deutz won't warranty it either. Unfortunately, engine manufacturers _never_ give warranty coverage when the engine had been used in a manner that the manufacturer clearly states is improper. If he had a case, he'd take it to court. If he provides what he's already said on video as proof to support his case, he's *s-o-l*...and he knows it.
> 
> ...



Better yet, find out what the machines capabilities are before you buy it. It may not be the machine you need, or there may be some modifications that can make it what you need.
But it dosen't make sense that Fecon, & Rayco would use that engine in a machine built as a masticator. I've worked my ASV on slopes a *lot* steeper than 25 or 30 degrees.

Andy


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## dyedfuel (Nov 17, 2009)

That was his biggest mistake. He made assumptions based upon the machine's tracked undercarriage. _After_ the engine failed, and also _after_ he did sit down with the provided-for-free literature, he discovered the manufacturer's maximum angle specification. In his first video, he's outside of Deutz headquarters in Georgia. He walks around the property and points out a couple of stumps on a sloped area that fall outside of what the machine's listed spec is.

He believes that since the tracked undercarriage would allow the machine to access the stump, well then....it should work fine sitting and running at full throttle for an hour at whatever the angle it happens to be sitting at is.

He says the spec is "buried" in the manual, but it was pretty easy to "un-bury" it by applying the often-overlooked and tricky *reading* technique. He goes on to make his case by saying that the salesman "never told me that". I'd really like to be in the room while a salesman made an attempt to read an operator a manual. I know what would happen, because I've been in that situation more times than I can recall. If I get called out to a construction site for a problem with some piece of machinery, the problem is often due to operator unfamiliarity and the notion that "the machine should do this....because I say so". About half of the time when I pull out the manual to show the proper sequence of operation or a specification, I'm responded to with, "I've been running these for 20 years....".

All too often, those 20 years have been on a different brand/model/etc.

If the salesman's portion of the transaction was a conversation that lasted all of 10 or 20 minutes, well then _of course_ there are things in a 50 or 100 page manual that weren't covered. Nowadays you don't even need to visit a dealer to browse a copy of the manual, most manufacturers have them available for free online. Prospective owners really should take the time to do a little more research. If they choose not to, then they should also choose to blame themselves instead of someone else.

;-)


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## VA-Sawyer (Nov 17, 2009)

I agree with saying the operator should read the manual, but sometimes that isn't possible. I often end up running a piece of machinery without having access to the manual first. I do take time to read all the warning and caution stickers I can find and do a walk around inspection to look for problems. A track machine with a 25 degree limitation should have a caution sticker clearly stating such limitation and the fact that it is due to loss of oil pickup.

On a stump grinder where the engine tilts as the head is moved, there should be an inclinometer with the max allowable tilt clearly marked in red.


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## Mowingman (Nov 17, 2009)

Some stump grinders have that exact setup, so you know when it is safe/unsafe to operate the engine. It is standard from the factory on some models of Bandit machines that I have operated.
Jeff



VA-Sawyer said:


> I agree with saying the operator should read the manual, but sometimes that isn't possible. I often end up running a piece of machinery without having access to the manual first. I do take time to read all the warning and caution stickers I can find and do a walk around inspection to look for problems. A track machine with a 25 degree limitation should have a caution sticker clearly stating such limitation and the fact that it is due to loss of oil pickup.
> 
> On a stump grinder where the engine tilts as the head is moved, there should be an inclinometer with the max allowable tilt clearly marked in red.


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## dyedfuel (Nov 17, 2009)

> A track machine with a 25 degree limitation should have a caution sticker clearly stating such limitation



That's just it....it does have a sticker. Not only is the warning already written into the manual's text, but there's also a section in the manual that illustrates all of the warning decals on the machine in case one of the labels becomes defaced and needs replacing.

It's no subtle warning either. It's on Carlton's site for everyone to see in the manuals download section. It doesn't say anything that _really_ could be misinterpreted. At least not without some serious effort.

From decal # 0700075A:

"Warning! Severe engine damage *WILL* occur if this engine is operated at an angle greater than 25 degrees. Proper engine oil level must be maintained to achieve maximum angle of operation of 25 degrees. (See engine owners manual for proper oil level)"

On the decal and in the manual the warning that damage will occur has the *will* typed in bold print. The decal also tells the operator to refer to the engine manual itself for proper instructions on checking the oil.

As far as I can tell, there's not much the manufacturer could do to make it any clearer. 

;-)


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## RVALUE (Nov 18, 2009)

Curbside said:


> I just looked at the manuel and sure enough it says not to operate at more than 25 degrees. How can anyone do stumps and not go to 25 degrees or greater on many many jobs. I live in the flatest area on earth in the bald ase prairies and I have my machines on inclines greater than that all the time. Grinder good only working in a parking lot as long as it doesn`t have to climb over a curb. Sure glad I`m running a Vermeer SC60 in that horsepower range cause I know I would have blown that engine 200 times over.



This was a problem on a friends skidder, I remember it was 15 degrees, what ever it was bad design.


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## dyedfuel (Nov 18, 2009)

> only working in a parking lot as long as it doesn`t have to climb over a curb



Of course you can climb over a curb, or go up and down an incline to load/unload from a trailer. What you _can't_ do, is set the machine up on an incline that exceeds the manufacturer's recommendations and then run it at high rpm under load for minutes/hours/etc. at a time.


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## Bigstumps (Nov 18, 2009)

On my 4012 it does have an inclinometer (??) because the engine moves with the head. On the track machines the engine doesn't go up and down.

I've watched my meter on some pretty steep hills - 25 degrees is a lot steeper than that guy shows in his video.

I talked to my sales rep about the whole thing. He claims Deutz says the engine will take 30 degrees and Carlton says 25 just to add in some safety factor. I would bet there is some safety factor built into the Deutz recommended 30 degrees also - so you know this guy probably was on something crazy(hill wise not drug wise.) 

Why doesn't he take us to the scene of the crime?? Maybe a reenactment would be nice! Someone on here with a track machine could volunteer and video it!!!!


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## gr8scott72 (Nov 19, 2009)

dyedfuel said:


> Of course you can climb over a curb, or go up and down an incline to load/unload from a trailer. What you _can't_ do, is set the machine up on an incline that exceeds the manufacturer's recommendations and then run it at high rpm under load for minutes/hours/etc. at a time.



I put the angle meter on the grinder as it went up the ramps for the trailer. At the steepest point, it was only 15° and those are pretty short ramps.


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## Mowingman (Nov 19, 2009)

Yep, I checked my ramps too, and while steep, they are not even close to 25 degrees.
As to the original post about failures on the Rayco/Frcon machines. I was running a leased Fecon, and thinking of buying a used Fecon with the Duetz engine. I talked to the Fecon mechanics and to the factory folks at Deutz.
While steep angles are a problem for those engines due to the shape of the oil pan, the real reason the Fecon/Rayco machines had engine failures was due to heat.
The machine I used had the J.D, diesel, and the engine compartment got so hot in the summer you could not touch anything in there. In fact, wires and insulation were actually melting. Deutz engines could not survive in that inclosed environment. They need lots of airflow, as they are air/oil cooled.
I have no fears about running my 7015 grinder, as I know exactly how steep an angle it can operate at, and that angle is way steeper than most any situation I will come across.
Jeff


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