# Barber Chair Question



## smokechase II (Feb 19, 2008)

Time for my annual Barber Chair Question.

Have any of you ever seen a tree barber chair that has been either Face Center Bored or had a rotten center that connected with the face cut?

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My agenda:
I think a face center bore may be the best cutting technique for 'almost' eliminating a barber chair risk.
(Proper use of binders may be the best.)

More important than boring the back-cut.

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Here is an Oak with some rot in the center.
Picture this rot going through the hinge to the face.


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## smokechase II (Feb 19, 2008)

*Reasons*

I've read at least twice here on AS where fallers have had barber chairs even when they bored the back cut.

This is easy to understand. If the hinge size is too big, regardless of whether cut by boring or other technique, a barber chair could result.

How to eliminate that risk, and this is something we all need to consider as:
1) Everyone makes mistakes,
2) None of us are experienced in all cutting scenarios, different woods of varying strengths etc.

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The input available from AS is fairly broad.

Thanks for any help.


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## sILlogger (Feb 19, 2008)

yup..ive seen them barber chair with a bored face cut...they were flukes..but they happened..i think some trees just have it in them that they are gonna split..and if they don't do it on the stump they will when it hits the ground


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## smokechase II (Feb 19, 2008)

*details*

For the good of the order:

Details.

Thanks


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## sILlogger (Feb 19, 2008)

I was cutting a 3 1/2 ft white oak one day..bore cut face and bore cut all the way around...left my holding "ears" on the corners of the face. had to leave a little bit bigger of "ears" due to the size and lean of the tree to keep the tree from breaking the hinge and sitting down (ears were prolly 4x6"). tree had a bit of rot in the center. turned it loose it started splitting right behind the hinge..barberchaired for 6 or 8 feet...elevating the butt of the tree several feet up in the air. and then the hinge broke and shot the tree back at me..

that was a fluke thing thing happened. ive cut solid and not so solid trees the same way in the same situation and it never did it 

last fall i was cutting a Chinkapin oak(type of white oak) bored the face and sides (leaving "ears")...just left a small portion of wood holding to try to keep fibre pull to a bar minimum, and keep from pinching the saw...turned the tree loose...and that SOB split!!! it blew clean in half....and it left a plank like piece of wood, the width of the stump, and 12 ft high attached to the stump...and split the tree from around it...even tho i had bored out the heart of it..it still split from around it......it was one of those weird thing that happen from time to time...that can't hardly be understood


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## 2dogs (Feb 19, 2008)

SCer I have never had a real barber chair like I have seen pics of. I do on occasion bore the face but not very often. I bore bigger trees when I have a shorter bar or maybe if I hit rot but still bore cuts are few and far between because most trees are small. Also I like to Humboldt where possible. I really should practice boring the face more often since for me holding the saw up in the face and starting the bore on the diagonal face takes skill. I like to use the smallest saw I have with me to start that cut.


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## smokechase II (Feb 20, 2008)

*Wow*

sILlogger:

If you had those trees to do over again.
What would you have done different?

Would binders above and below have worked?

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How strong a lean did they have?
Any wind, wedging forces etc come into play?

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By "turning it loose" do you mean you had completed the bore toward the rear and then finished with cutting the remaining strap at the rear from the outside?

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The ears, about 6 inches down and in 4 inches?

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Did the Chinkapin also split at the back of the hinge?

(Not trying to be a pest, just trying to understand.)
It sure sounds like you did everything right.


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## stihl 440 (Feb 20, 2008)

*loggin'*



smokechase II said:


> sILlogger:
> 
> If you had those trees to do over again.
> What would you have done different?
> ...



What sILlogger meant when he said ears is his hinge. Not ears cut in the outside of the notch to cut side fibers.:greenchainsaw:


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## 046 (Feb 20, 2008)

when cutting leaners not big enough to bore cut. I'll wrap trunk several times with a 4in truckers cargo strap. 

this insures trunk cannot split.... if strap is tie correctly, no way that 4in strap will fail. these typically have a 5,000lb working load. 

if some one would mfg a strap attachment similar to how GRCS attaches. this would give a safe way to prevent barber chairs. 

http://www.westfleet.com/cargo/scc-4inch.html


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## smokechase II (Feb 20, 2008)

*Ears and straps*

That strap looks good. Not sure what its upper limit is but I bet snugged down it is enough on most leaners.

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"What sILlogger meant when he said ears is(are) his hinge. Not ears cut in the outside of the notch to cut side fibers."

I need a drawing to be sure.


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## sILlogger (Feb 20, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> sILlogger:
> 
> If you had those trees to do over again.
> What would you have done different?
> ...



to be honest..i prolly wouldn't do anythign different...about the only other thing would be to cut the hinges a little thinner...but then you run the chance of the tree setting down on your saw... 



> How strong a lean did they have?
> Any wind, wedging forces etc come into play?
> 
> *****************


the bigger white oak had a pretty far lean to it..but nothing extradinary..the chinkapin didn't have a great deal of lean on it either...they were just fluke things that happened..ive cut worse trees before and since the same way...you can do it 100 times....and the 101st might get you..

ive got pretty good sized hardwoods with hard leans on them....notched them(shallow) bored the face(shallow) bored one side(left my "ear" of holding wood on the corner of the notch) and gone pretty well all the way to the back of the tree...and went around the to other side and bored in and left and "ear" and got 1/4 the way around that side and it would pull the entire back part of the stump out out of the ground....root and all....

...i think the last one that i cut that did that was a sycamore on the edge of a creek..it was right at 50" on the stump..and was prolly leaning at a 50-60 degree angle... shallow undercut..bore off one side..just got started in the other and it pulled the last 2' of the back that i still had to cut up out of the ground.......never hurt the log...a facecut/backcut and the tree would have exploded



> By "turning it loose" do you mean you had completed the bore toward the rear and then finished with cutting the remaining strap at the rear from the outside?
> 
> *******************



yea..when i say turn it loose i mean i either cut all the way out the back after boring it...or i left some wood, pulled the saw out nipped the wood with the saw to let the tree to over. if you don't leave enough...or the tree is leaning really hard it can split out the back of the tree..or pull the root out of the ground(fairly common)



> The ears, about 6 inches down and in 4 inches?
> 
> *******************



that 6x4" the size of the "holding ears"...6" towards the center of the tree from the end of the notch and 4" deep into the tree....those are good sized "ears"...i typically don't cut them that big...alot of times i'll cut 30" trees and i'll cut my "ears" and they will only be a 1"x1" piece of holding wood...(on hickory i cut them as small as possible to keep from pulling the side of the tree out) if the tree species is known to split or if it is a high grade tree in which i don't want any fiber pull..i will nip the ears off after i turn the tree loose and let it free from the stump=no fibre pull

you can also use the ears...or the cutting of them to turn or roll a tree as it falls...if you need a tree to go in a gap...but the tree is wantin to hit another one...you can cut the ear off opposite of the side of the area where you want it to land...and when it hits the other tree it will roll.......right where u want it if you do it right... you can also use this method to land the tree with a fork in a way that it won't split....(if the trees land with one fork above the other they will often split the tree...sometimes all the way up the butt and blow the tree clean in half.



> Did the Chinkapin also split at the back of the hinge?
> 
> (Not trying to be a pest, just trying to understand.)
> It sure sounds like you did everything right.



as for the chinkapin...i make the undercut...bored it while i was doing it..cut the notch...made my ears on both sides...
(all while on one side of the tree)...dogged in and motored out the back of the tree....the tree split out the rear...about the last 3/4"(yes...i only had 3/4" of holding wood left when it split and started to go....and then split out the middle...my ears on this tree were prolly 1.5"x3"......it was another one of those fluke things


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## 056 kid (Feb 20, 2008)

*Big hardwoods*

we just started cutting near Salem VA today. Lots of big red,white, and chesnut oaks along with poplars... 
I dropped a really clear white oak bout 3 foot at the cut. leaving 2.5 by 8 inch ears with a humboldt. Plunged in behind da da da let it loose and upon face compression the ears gave and everything was fine. But if you look close you could see a nice tiny crack parallel to the hinge.
They just do it to spite!!

There was this big black wallnut line tree that was under discussion on who's tree it actually was. Ended up cutting it and damned if that thing didn't split all the way down TO the stump. The forks hitting the deck split 45 feet of clear log, the split started at the top.


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## 046 (Feb 20, 2008)

with a 5,000 lbs working load... it's got to have 20,000 lbs+ breaking strength. 

have not figured out actual loads, but that should be well within a 4in strap's limits. 



smokechase II said:


> That strap looks good. Not sure what its upper limit is but I bet snugged down it is enough on most leaners.
> 
> ***********************
> 
> ...


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## sILlogger (Feb 20, 2008)

the blue portion have been bored out already...the orange is the remaining holding wood....all that needs to be done is the rear holding wood cut....tree falls over..very minimal fibre pull


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## sILlogger (Feb 20, 2008)

056 kid said:


> was this big black wallnut line tree that was under discussion on who's tree it actually was. Ended up cutting it and damned if that thing didn't split all the way down TO the stump. The forks hitting the deck split 45 feet of clear log, the split started at the top.



AND YOU STILL HAVE A JOB?!?!??!?:monkey:


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## sILlogger (Feb 20, 2008)

056 kid said:


> we just started cutting near Salem VA today. Lots of big red,white, and chesnut oaks along with poplars...
> I dropped a really clear white oak bout 3 foot at the cut. leaving 2.5 by 8 inch ears with a humboldt. Plunged in behind da da da let it loose and upon face compression the ears gave and everything was fine. But if you look close you could see a nice tiny crack parallel to the hinge.
> They just do it to spite!!



unless that thing was leaning pretty hard you left too much holding wood...your hinge was almost half the width of the tree (8"
+8"=16")...that is an awfull lot of holding wood for a good clean white oak that isn't leaning really had...you can get away with it on a red oak...

white oak=splits and fibre pulls easier on the stump....more forgiving on the landing

red oak=more forgiving on the stump...easier to split on landing...

poplar&sweetgum=I'm like a kid in a candy store...saw cuts fast...trees are forgiving...tall and straight with few limbs...i love those days.. 

not trying to tell you how to cut trees(prolly sees like i am tho)..i cut my hinges thin...minimize fibre pull.......and i get work because of it


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## 056 kid (Feb 20, 2008)

hell it wasent my fault. that sob hit allmost flat on 3 feet of laps 
They do it some times


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## sILlogger (Feb 20, 2008)

056 kid said:


> hell it wasent my fault. that sob hit allmost flat on 3 feet of laps
> They do it some times



laps? was it a double fork-2 main limbs?(alot of walnuts are)

btw..how big of a tree was it?


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## 056 kid (Feb 20, 2008)

Laps=tops...
I had cut nothing but monster poplars off several flat acres and 6 or 7 incline behind my bosses daughters house so there was a ton of laps everywhere. It was definently a soft landing. He was waiting for me on the skidder so he saw what happend.


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## 2dogs (Feb 21, 2008)

sILlogger said:


> AND YOU STILL HAVE A JOB?!?!??!?:monkey:



LOL!!!


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## smokechase II (Feb 21, 2008)

*No answer*

sILlogger:

Nice job on the illustration and cutting thought/technique.

I have no explanation other than there might have been a hidden defect in those trees.

Here is a shortened statement by John Ellison:
_"The weirdest one was a spruce in Alaska. It never had a saw cut in it … the hook tender had just rigged a lift tree. It was not topped. Two 11" blocks, two chokers and two sections of haywire were hanging from the tree. He had just taken off the belt and spurs … we heard a noise and the tree barber chaired from some fault inside starting at 5 feet. No wind at all."_ 

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So on that thought, for the good of the order, here are a couple powerpoint slides converted to jpeg.
They show dealing with *visible* splits.


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## 046 (Feb 21, 2008)

smoke.. that's a really dangerous looking split trunk.


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## sILlogger (Feb 21, 2008)

046 said:


> smoke.. that's a really dangerous looking split trunk.



ahh...the real fun ones are the ones that are busted into too sections over your head....but they are still together.....30ft over your head....the tree is already in two pieces sitting on the stump..an upper and lower portion


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## smokechase II (Feb 21, 2008)

*Odd thought*

That second tree, the Oak, I think was actually more dangerous.

Here is a view of its crown.
If it had been dropped with that split parallel to the hinge............


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## hammerlogging (Feb 21, 2008)

I think some hinges are being left too thick. The width of the hinge, as a guidleline, is 10% diameter MAXIMUM. But even 30" white oaks only need a 3/4" hinge width. Sometimes there is nothing we can do, but really narrowing down your width is going to help. Hickory facwe slabbing, for instance- even 1/2 hinge width and they'll still slab up the face. Sillogger- your technique and description and all tells me you do know whats up but I wonder if your ears are too thick too. Do youclip the outside bark of each side of your hinge? But what i did hear from you is about doing the center bore at the same time as the bottom cut of the face, I always did it as its own step but why? Cause I'd never thought of the way you're saying. 

We're allgoing to be tempted to blame the faller for breaking a nice black walnut and there are enough soso cutters who we can blame, but we cant say for sure, it happens eh. We're a proud sort and we can definately talk some crap right?

Its the length of the hinge that is your best tool for precision felling. And the center bore is a great tool.

The root pull can be nasty, especially if it say catches the strap on your chaps or something. SOmetimes I use a buttress root to add strength to my holding wood, but other times I make sure to cut through a buttress root even if it means my holding wood is not at the total back of the stump to avoid chance of root pull.

I like the pics about felling the problem trees. thats the thoughtfulness it takes to be great observe and adapt. We have a skill profession and its art, its a dance


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## sILlogger (Feb 21, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> I think some hinges are being left too thick. The width of the hinge, as a guidleline, is 10% diameter MAXIMUM. But even 30" white oaks only need a 3/4" hinge width. Sometimes there is nothing we can do, but really narrowing down your width is going to help. Hickory facwe slabbing, for instance- even 1/2 hinge width and they'll still slab up the face. Sillogger- your technique and description and all tells me you do know whats up but I wonder if your ears are too thick too. Do youclip the outside bark of each side of your hinge? But what i did hear from you is about doing the center bore at the same time as the bottom cut of the face, I always did it as its own step but why? Cause I'd never thought of the way you're saying.



alot of times it doesn't take much to keep the tree from setting down on the saw...and on a typical tree w/o alot of lean i don't leave very much wood holding....as for clipping the bark...it depends on the tree....hickory, walnut & good white oak=alwasy...some of the other just depend.

that hickory sure is a PITA isn't it!!


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## 056 kid (Feb 25, 2008)

You can also chase what hinge wood. 2.5'' to .5'' in maby .5 seconds.


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