# Tracked machine for skidding?



## bitzer (Mar 24, 2012)

Yesterday was the first day I was able to skid in weeks. The ground was soft from winter break up and I just couldn't do much. I've been trying to figure out how I can keep wood moving when a wheeled machine can't. There were a lot of days that I could not skid due to the non-winter we had and a wet fall last year. I'm thinking a small dozer with a winch although it may be slow as hell. I don't think a tracked skid loader would be heavy duty enough. I don't really know though. What I need is a tank with a winch! It rained all day today. It was really great to cut in compared to sunny, humid, and 80 degrees that we've been having, but there goes skidding for a while again. Any thoughts on tracked machines?


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## RandyMac (Mar 24, 2012)

Besides Caterpillers?


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## schmuck.k (Mar 24, 2012)

fmc makes a tracked skidder here is a video fmc skidding logs - YouTube


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## paccity (Mar 24, 2012)

the fmc's are the only one's i've seen. seen with grapples or cablearch.


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## floyd (Mar 24, 2012)

Tracked machine is as slow as the operator chooses to run it.


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## sharkness (Mar 24, 2012)

Cat makes the 527,but it is a grapple type.


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## palogger390 (Mar 24, 2012)

Cat makes the 517 and 527 in different configurations. The most common that I see are swing boom grapples. But they make both models with a cable arch, swing boom, or standard grpple with a winch too. Before cat came out with the 517 and 527 they made D4H-TSK and the D5H-TSK, if you are looking for something more affordable.
Your other option is a kmc/fmc. They are very impressive machines. In our area they use them to herbicide steep ground. I have a hard time believing where those machines go with out upsetting. But I have been told they are expensive machines to maintain. Mainly the undercarriage wears out quickly, which would be the case with any track machine skidding in mud continuously.
I have a d4h that we use on hillside and for bunching tight spots. I try to use it for logging as little as possible because it doesn't lift the timber far anough off the ground. Dull saw and muddy logs all the time. It also seems to create more mud than rubber tired machine.
The best machine I've had for producing in muddy conditions was a Deere 1410D 8 wheeled forwarder. With eco tracks all around it would almost walk on water. In hind sight I think it was the way to go.


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## HorseFaller (Mar 24, 2012)

My vote would be the forwarder also. You can get them with tracks or rubber tired with what we call ice tracks that go around the tires. Works pretty good.


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## coastalfaller (Mar 24, 2012)

Cats are slower than wheel skidders, but definitely the ticket for soft or steep ground. I ran a D5 high track one summer, it was used in conjunction with wheel skidders in a fairly big show. My job was to skid all the timber to areas where the wheel skidders could grab it, or to the landing if it was close enough. You definitely don't want to long of skids with a cat. The D5 I ran had a grapple, but not the swing boom which was frustrating at times. Backing up a steep slope to grab your turn, just.....inching.....up......then just when you're reaching for your turn with the grapple...you slide a bit. F***####k. Back down the hill and try again! Swing boom would have been great! 

Ideally you could grow your operation large enough where you can sustain both a skidder and a cat as both have their place.


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## Joe46 (Mar 24, 2012)

No more FMC's. Haven't been for several years. If they are still produced, they are now KMC's and made up in BC. They were fast as heck, costly and high maintenance. They'd get the wood out though.


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## Humptulips (Mar 24, 2012)

Those FMCs were an incredible logging machine and equally incredible when everything started wearing out in less then a year. Bankrupt a guy trying to keep tracks and suspension on them.


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## paccity (Mar 24, 2012)

that's probably why the ones around here are sitting all loanly in the corner of there lotts.


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## Oldtimer (Mar 24, 2012)

The Caterpillar track skidders are so heavy that they wouldn't be hardly any better than the skidder.
My best advice is to buy a set of "swamp logger" flotation skidder tires. It's the cheapest and easiest thing you can do.
What do you run for a skidder? I forgot if you said.

Firestone 67x34.00x25 Tubeless Flotation Tires - Logging Equipment - Misc. Logging Eq. -


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## natems361 (Mar 24, 2012)

bitzer said:


> Yesterday was the first day I was able to skid in weeks. The ground was soft from winter break up and I just couldn't do much. I've been trying to figure out how I can keep wood moving when a wheeled machine can't. There were a lot of days that I could not skid due to the non-winter we had and a wet fall last year. I'm thinking a small dozer with a winch although it may be slow as hell. I don't think a tracked skid loader would be heavy duty enough. I don't really know though. What I need is a tank with a winch! It rained all day today. It was really great to cut in compared to sunny, humid, and 80 degrees that we've been having, but there goes skidding for a while again. Any thoughts on tracked machines?



i dont know the volume of wood your talking about or how far of a skid, but i use a mini excavator, bobcat 331 7500 lb machine that can do some work. i hauled out about 100 cord of firewood and five tri axle loads of mill logs, it took about a 150 machine hours . best part is the wood dose not get dragged through the dirt. ive been playing in the mud myself.


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## bitzer (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts guys! I am going to need a second machine regardless and I've just been tossing the tracked idea around a lot. I could see the skids making a lot of mud and long distance skids would be ####ty production though. I've thought about the higher float tires and haven't really figured out if I could run them. I've got a 1990 Franklin 132 single bunk forwarder. Its just killing me that I can't move wood more often. I've been running at about 50% since December or so. We never really had any frost in the ground and way too many days above freezing. Break up was quick, but its mud season for a couple of months now. I've done some digging and found some smaller dozers to the north of me set up with a winch and one even with a loader like my machine. I've got to get something in the works. With cool temps over the next few days I probably won't be moving anything until late in the week again as long as it doesn't rain. Thanks again!


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2012)

This one did well.

[video=youtube_share;rVJ4DT9dEoI]http://youtu.be/rVJ4DT9dEoI[/video]


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## slowp (Mar 25, 2012)

It is faster than the tree. Look, he's got blue wedges!

[video=youtube_share;PWwS85TXJGw]http://youtu.be/PWwS85TXJGw[/video]


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## Oldtimer (Mar 25, 2012)

If you need another machine, a mid-west sourced 8 wheel forwarder is the best choice. One with the eco-tracks. Pricey though. Ponsse, Rottne, JD, Fabtek, Valmet...maybe even the 8 wheel Timbco / Timber-pro, but those generally bring big dollars even used.

Used Logging Equipment - Forwarders - Forestry Equipment Sales


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## hammerlogging (Mar 25, 2012)

dozers are the norm around, whether bunching for skidders, or in rare cases, forwarders. The JD 650 is the best all arounder, an arch helps but is not required. Skid as short a distance as possible to main extraction routes. A 30 yo cat or jd might do you fine, really just winching to, almost no tramming. So when you can forward, weather permitting, it may be 3 18 hr days in a row but at least you've wood out, more wood. I'd say it'd be a good step, a real good step for you.


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## Slamm (Mar 26, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> dozers are the norm around, whether bunching for skidders, or in rare cases, forwarders. The JD 650 is the best all arounder, an arch helps but is not required. Skid as short a distance as possible to main extraction routes. A 30 yo cat or jd might do you fine, really just winching to, almost no tramming. So when you can forward, weather permitting, it may be 3 18 hr days in a row but at least you've wood out, more wood. I'd say it'd be a good step, a real good step for you.



There are a few in Southern Illinois that bunch up hitches with D4's and JD 450's and they pull about 400 board feet straight up a hill, but no more, or they are raring up in the air like a stallion, the logs are drug low with a small arch and get quite muddy.

My research had me wanting to get a JD650 with a grapple. The 750 is too big for serious mud work and the 550 is too small for serious use with a grapple.

My observations with cable skidding with a smaller dozer is simply just, acting like you are doing something in the mud, but in reality is sort of a waste of time, but everyone's level of productivity is different.

In our area the Catapillars are not the go to machine, the Deere's are easier to work on, easier on fuel and cheaper on parts.

I'm going the flotation tire route for my bottoms ground work that is always wet and muddy. I looked into those FMC?'s and they are expensive and hard to keep maintained, and they tear up a lot of ground.

I have skidded some 200-300 board feet trees backwards with my Mustang MTL20 track loader. I would spike the end of the log with one of the grapple bucket's teeth and then literally sit backwards one the loader arms cross bar and I could drive that machine backwards just as fast, as I could forwards, after a little practice, but again, it was slow enough that it just seemed like a waste of time, better off to mount good lights and work 22 hours a day when its dry, then muck around for 8 hours when its wet and slow, I've done both and 22 hours and dry is much more profitable.

Thats my take on it,

Sam


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## hammerlogging (Mar 27, 2012)

Slamm, generally speaking when it comes to the mud I agree with you. There is that sweet spot where it'd be too wet to forward and not wet enough where as long as he's totally distributing his bunching activity, he'd never really be breaking through the duff with the dozer. They are used here so much because it is steep and there is far more road building to get to more timber, don't start me on whether this just means its really cable ground.... forwarders are intended to work bunched wood (from a processor, in traditional cases) which enables them to get more of a load each stop. A cable machine for bunching will be a natural progression anyhow, he can bunch and merchandise in any condition.


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## Slamm (Mar 27, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> Slamm, generally speaking when it comes to the mud I agree with you. There is that sweet spot where it'd be too wet to forward and not wet enough where as long as he's totally distributing his bunching activity, he'd never really be breaking through the duff with the dozer. They are used here so much because it is steep and there is far more road building to get to more timber, don't start me on whether this just means its really cable ground.... forwarders are intended to work bunched wood (from a processor, in traditional cases) which enables them to get more of a load each stop. A cable machine for bunching will be a natural progression anyhow, he can bunch and merchandise in any condition.



Yeah, I got locked into thinking about working these bottoms grounds. Those guys that I know that use the D4's and JD450's the bunch for the skidders that are running the ridge with the hitches out, but they can run those little dozers when it is completely soaked on the side hills for slow straight uphill pulling.

The thing I noticed is they can pull straight up and straight down those hills so well that, they can just back right up to every single log, I mean right up to it, on steep ground, and it just seemed to me that a grapple machine would be easily double the production, plus if you are cutting in wet conditions, its more likely that the log sinks and you can't get the choker under it, which I just hate. I'm not sure of Bitzer's board footage average, but if its not too big 200ish or so, I would sure look at a JD550 with some sort of grapple on it for bunching, once he gets to figuring out what size loads it can handle he can just buck the bigger logs to size, and pull up appropriate sized loads, instead of wasting time trying to get a choker under a muddy log and getting on and off the machine. Put lights on it and get it ready for working the short hour days, because a dozer, like a wide padded JD450 or 550 can go in any mud condition and most any slope and back right up to the log. It would be easier on the machine to grapple smaller logs or bucked up logs, than it would be to cable skid larger full length logs up the hill and have to drag them through everything, or at least I think so. A JD650 with a grapple would be the cats meow, I think, and they are pretty fast.

If I worked wet hills more, I would have an enclosed cab JD650 with a small swing grapple on it, that way when conditions are total crap, I don't have to get wet or muddy, and put lights on it, so I can work in any condition especially the short houred days, when there isn't anything else to do, but it just doesn't seem to me that I get into hills as much anymore which is great, so the flotation tire methods should work best for our pure mud conditions. I think Bitzer is working more hills than me, so the dozer with a cable arch or grapple would be pretty good for him. Make sure you get a wide track, they are night and day different on wet ground.

My opinion,

Sam


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## slowp (Mar 27, 2012)

The guys in the videos were working in the Winter. They couldn't always work due to the rain, but they were careful so they were able to work shortly after the rain stopped, and our soils have no clay and drain well. Machines are restricted to pre-planned skid trails, and these guys were smart enough to keep the trails on the higher areas of ground where they could. If they hadn't, I would have suggested doing that.

They fell the trees by chainsaw, even though it was flat ground (for here) and then walked their shovel out, and bunched the trees. He'd fling slash out in the trail ahead of the shovel, which also allowed them to work in marginal conditions. 

Then they skidded the bunches out with the little cat. Everybody seemed to be committed to do a nice job. 
That unit was right up against a heavily used (in the Summer) tourist road.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 27, 2012)

What kind of distances are your skids? Primarily adverse or favourable skids? Do you often work on steep slopes? Maybe I missed it in the previous replys. Just trying trying to get a feel for your ground.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm not saying there's a one system that fits all. I know back east you guys use skidders and forwarders primarily but if you work lots of soft broken ground with steps you might want to think about shovels. My reasoning is here in Western WA on the coast skidders or cats are not allowed as they cause too much compaction because the constant back and forth over the same skid trail causes severe compaction and muddying in our soft clay soils. Shovels do have shorter skid distances but in choppy ground with benches they have the advantage. They can reach out from the trail and they move the wood in swings instead of moving back and forth.They can also chunk up the ruts they do leave and you can put in puncheon in real soft places. Further more they can also be used to bunch and you could forward your bunches to a dedicated skid trail to pick up with your skidder. Just some thoughts and here's some pics of what I was talking about. It's also been my observation that they can work on pretty steep ground... steeper than most people would think.

View attachment 231082


View attachment 231086


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View attachment 231092


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## Oldtimer (Mar 28, 2012)

Hey, Bitzer...

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices


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## HorseFaller (Mar 29, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> I'm not saying there's a one system that fits all. I know back east you guys use skidders and forwarders primarily but if you work lots of soft broken ground with steps you might want to think about shovels. My reasoning is here in Western WA on the coast skidders or cats are not allowed as they cause too much compaction because the constant back and forth over the same skid trail causes severe compaction and muddying in our soft clay soils. Shovels do have shorter skid distances but in choppy ground with benches they have the advantage. They can reach out from the trail and they move the wood in swings instead of moving back and forth.They can also chunk up the ruts they do leave and you can put in puncheon in real soft places. Further more they can also be used to bunch and you could forward your bunches to a dedicated skid trail to pick up with your skidder. Just some thoughts and here's some pics of what I was talking about. It's also been my observation that they can work on pretty steep ground... steeper than most people would think.
> 
> View attachment 231082
> 
> ...



+1


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## bitzer (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks again for the discussion boys! The ground has been a real teaser. Almost ready yesterday and rain again today. I cut last friday all day in the rain, but it was 50 degrees. Today it is in the 30s. I said nuts to that. I've got about 3 tuckloads of logs and 3 of pulp sittn on the ground now. Just waiting...

I found these a few hours north of me and it looks like they are on my rims. I'm going to give them a call today and see whats up and their impression of them. I should get a hold of someone running them up here because I can guess what the dealer would say. With the float tires I'd still be maintaining one machine instead of two.

Float Tires-Logging

I can't get over the tracked machine idea though and I'm going to call around to see if there are any I can demo or something. I don't mind getting wet or muddy. I think I was built for that kind of crap or maybe too dumb to care. The grapple sounds good to me, but that could be tough to find around here. 

Either way I've got to up production when the ground is good. I'm thinking about a winch on the back of my machine too. Even another 2-300bf per skid would help. With logs and pulp on the bunk I'm getting an average of 600bf per skid and about a cord of pulp. The job I'm in right now I started back in January so it was a whole different animal back then. There are a lot of low spots in the first forty which is primarly flat back to the back forty which has two ridgelines and a valley. There are several drainage creeks running through-out. Of course I'm working the back right now and its about an 8 minute skid one way. This is the longest skid I've ever had so far. As the time goes on I am getting a lot more say in where the landing and roads should be. It may sound dumb, but just little tweaks in placement of roads/landing can make all the difference I think. Spring up here is wet and bound to happen. Usually it will dry up in mid may and then I can crank away again. 

A small cable skidder like a JD 440 will be in my near future I'm sure of that. I could haul that with my truck and start other jobs where the ground has good drainage and is good. I've talked with my forester and he said he'd have no problem with me having two jobs open at once. Just to keep moving. We have some pretty steep ground around here that would not be forwarder friendly and would make me more versatile. Not real long hills, but stuff that will make you roll the leather out the sides of your boots.

I stopped in with the forester yesterday to check a landing at an Amish horse logging job. They were working some pretty steep and broken up ridges. I think I should quit my #####in after seein that! Block and tackle and all kinds of crazy stuff. They run Stihls. I saw a couple of 440s and a 441. 

Thanks Again!


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## Oldtimer (Mar 30, 2012)

Those tires would keep you above ground for sure! Offer them $8K.

Here's one that was for sale @ Oregon Tractor..

[video=youtube;yzkPkmr_a2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzkPkmr_a2w[/video]


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## Slamm (Mar 30, 2012)

Good god, don't offer them anything. You can get the same tires for around $2,000-3,000 and the rims for about $100-200 each, pm me for more information.

If you are going to get a Deere cable machine, I would highly recommend a 540B over the 440's and 540A, I've owned and driven all three. The 540B has differentials that unlock and will allow your trails and landings to last much longer than machines with locked up differentials. They also turn tighter than even the smaller machines like the 540A, they have very fuel efficient 4cylinders with turbos and they are tough, you can pull 800 board feet at a good clip and even 1,000 in the lower gears and right terrain. With 23.1x26's they are good on hills.

The next time we are logging up north, probably Wednesday, we have a 10 minute one way skid and that sucks, gotta have the batteries charged on the radio earmuffs for that skid, its 1/2 mile long. We have about 10 acres left back there and then we move to 120 acres that is closer to the landing.

Later,

Sam


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## bitzer (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks OldTimer for the video clip! Thats interesting to see.

Sam- I had that talk with Hammer last summer and he pointed me in that same direction with the 540s. I've seen in person, but never run both sizes of machine and the 540s seem like they'd be the ticket. How are they as far as hauling though? What do they weigh out at? I'd be looking for something I could haul easily with my pick up. I should be able to tow 8-9 tons with my truck. Its a pain in the ass calling in a lowboy for the forwarder at $2-300 a crack. When I move it, its for a while. I'd like to be a little more mobile. 

Thanks!


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## Slamm (Mar 31, 2012)

Well a 540B cable is in the 18,000+ish range. I don't know for sure, as I have never pulled across the scales with one. I have pulled mine on a 25K gooseneck behind my 3/4 ton Duramax, all over southwestern Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Northern Missouri and Illinois, but I wake up early in the morning and don't kid myself about it being legal. If you have a bigger truck and a pintle hook equipment trailer, then I think its okay. Lotsa guys pull them behind duallies, but a smaller 440 or 540A would of course be lighter, but I think in the woods they fall just short of having the weight and umph to get work done without haveing to overwork, because your machine is too little.

My 540B cable machine is 8' wide, my grapple machine is 8.5' wide, you can really sneak around the woods and not knock anything over with them. I have been told by one of the larger sawmill operators that has two crews that they ran those larger floatation tires on a 540B grapple and in his own words, he said,"You could skid logs where no man could walk."

So that is the route I'm going to take, for muddy and soft work.

Sam


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## Oldtimer (Mar 31, 2012)

Bitzer, the 540B is too much to move with a pickup, even a ton dually, if you want to be legal and be able to stop in a hurry. So, with that in mind, I humbly suggest a 648 grapple...I put mine wherever I could put the C5d Tree Farmer and most times with less rub damage. You can buy a 648D or E dual arch with a winch for $18 to $25K. It might have hours on it, but mine has 20,500 and is still going..
My reasoning is that the 540 cable is simply no match for a 648. The 6 will move 3x as much wood with 1/2 the effort. It will use more fuel, but when you move 3x more wood it's a non-issue. Set the hand throttle to 1/3 and use the transmission to go faster.

Trust me on this one. I have run a 440B, 440C, 540A, 540B, 540D, Tree Farmer C5D, Tree Farmer C6D, 640 single arch, and now my 648D D/A. 

Your SO want the dual arch with a winch.

Work SMART, not hard. And don't be scared to take on a little bigger payment when the result is more wood moved for less effort.


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## hammerlogging (Mar 31, 2012)

oldtimer, its a little different since he'll just be bunching for the forwarder, no skid distance really over 200'. Agreed on the transport though, either one can be pulled on a 20 ton tilt deck behind a dump truck, and if they're close to the same price, why not?


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## Oldtimer (Apr 1, 2012)

With a 648, he might just skid whole tree more often than not. It'll move more wood in the run of a day, there's no doubt of it.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 1, 2012)

There is definatly alot to be said for mechanizing . I just don't like payments . At this point it looks like u definatly need another machine . A shovel is pretty ideal , but alot of maintenence. And they aint lite .




.

This Mountain Logger 200 did pretty good in wet conditions . If it would have been used more intelligently it would have got alot more wood out . But it wasn't worth much if it got on steeper ground with lots of wet roots in the ground . Chains would have solved that tho .


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## rodeo (Apr 1, 2012)

tramp busheler. Were those Mountain loggers the ones with the chassis (and by chassis I guess I mean everything but the motor and the winch) made in Kalispell, MT? A guy I met this winter was using a 174 that seemed to be doing what he needed it to. Anyway, just wondering. thanks.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 2, 2012)

Could be but I thot they were made in Washington . The 200 have 653 Detroits and Clark tranny's . It had lots of snort . A 2 cord tree length skidder for sure .more if its bucked in half decent conditions I'm sure it would handle 2 bushel soft wood . One thing I didn't like about it was it was an extra step up into the cab .

What engine did the 174 have in it.


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## Joe46 (Apr 2, 2012)

I" believe" they were made in Wash, and sold by Lynnwood Equip. They were real popular on the Peninsula. Cut for a couple of gyppos that ran em.


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## rodeo (Apr 2, 2012)

View attachment 231925

Not sure if I have the picture thing figured out, but this is the skidder I referenced earlier. The motor is a detroit 4 I think.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 2, 2012)

That is nice . Wish I had it here . It looks like its a little older than the 200 . On the coast wheel skidders were mostly used as auxillary suppers machines for support of tower logging . .
Moving and stringing guyline extentions . Winching out r.o.w.logs that a road shovel can't reach ect . Winching loaded log trucks up steep grades at landings . Ect . On the flat ground of the Interion theywere primary yarding equipment . The 200 had the power for the heavier wood and work .


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## bitzer (Apr 2, 2012)

There are a lot of times I could be skidding tree length to a staging area before the landing where I could buck and then pick up with the forwrder and then stack out at the landing. There are also jobs where I could skid tree length to the landing and some that there is only room for the forwarder. I spent a day laying out timber on a different guys job a couple of weeks ago. Just limbing, topping, and leaving tree length. Holy #### did I put the wood on the ground and I had energy to spare at the end of the day. It changed my whole perspective on how I deal with pulp and how much I'm willing to chase the ####. I went home that day thinking I could get used to that. 

It seems that optimizing my skid time is what its all about right now. Like you guys said, balls to the walls when the ground is good and cut like crazy when its not.

The second machine is a given no matter what it is, but now for the tricky part.... How to convince the wife I need more equipment.


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## tramp bushler (Apr 2, 2012)

Just show her how those days and weeks when no $$ are coming in there could be full paychecks . At least mine likes those full weeks of money .


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## Slamm (Apr 5, 2012)

Here is a tracked death machine with no cab, LOL.
HD4 dozer with log loader

Neat idea though.

Sam


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## AL KMC (Jul 25, 2018)

bitzer said:


> Yesterday was the first day I was able to skid in weeks. The ground was soft from winter break up and I just couldn't do much. I've been trying to figure out how I can keep wood moving when a wheeled machine can't. There were a lot of days that I could not skid due to the non-winter we had and a wet fall last year. I'm thinking a small dozer with a winch although it may be slow as hell. I don't think a tracked skid loader would be heavy duty enough. I don't really know though. What I need is a tank with a winch! It rained all day today. It was really great to cut in compared to sunny, humid, and 80 degrees that we've been having, but there goes skidding for a while again. Any thoughts on tracked machines?



KMC Forwarders TODAY Skid 12 Months a year in both Wet & Steep Ground Conditions


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## KYLogger (Jul 29, 2018)

Blast from the past!


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## RandyMac (Jul 31, 2018)

spamer


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