# Locating Arborist/Training Facility?



## AviD (Jun 28, 2006)

What is the best way of going about finding a local arborist and/or training facility to learn and ask hands on questions, preview equipment, techniques, etc?


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## jmack (Jun 28, 2006)

AviD said:


> What is the best way of going about finding a local arborist and/or training facility to learn and ask hands on questions, preview equipment, techniques, etc?


whats your end goal?


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## AviD (Jun 28, 2006)

jmack said:


> whats your end goal?



Ultimately I just want to learn climbing techniques, not interested in running chainsaws, not doing any heavy cutting/lowering or anything. Primarily gaff climbing and gear selection (harness, lanyard, etc)...but would like to learn single and double rope techniques eventually as well. I know the gaff vs non-gaff crowd is pretty split here, but for my climbing application, they are what I am interested in initially. I've extracted quite a bit of info on here as far as some of the gear, but I'd prefer to spend some time with an experienced climber rather than just reading and applying. I'm confident I can learn it on my own and I have non-climber profession friends that use gaffs and could "show me", but doing it the smart/right/safe way with someone that has the professional experience is my preference.


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## inztrees (Jun 28, 2006)

*hey*

thats a 4 letter word gaff :hmm3grin2orange:


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## clearance (Jun 28, 2006)

inztrees said:


> thats a 4 letter word gaff :hmm3grin2orange:


A four letter word? Does that mean good, like love, beer, meat, sexy,? Way to go Avid, learn with spurs, learn the other way later. My advice is to go and watch/work for someone on the weekends, why you want to be in a tree without a chainsaw puzzles me but whatever. Spurs and a steelcore, can't go wrong.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 28, 2006)

clearance said:


> ... why you want to be in a tree without a chainsaw puzzles me but whatever. Spurs and a steelcore, can't go wrong.



Other side of the story - if you are in the tree and you are not using a chain saw, you probably are not doing a take down. There may be times when it is not economicly feasable to climb on ropes for pruning, but those times are rare. If you are just climbing for recreation, or to put up a deer stand, ropes are safer for you and better for the tree. 

Gaffs injure the tree, and (my opinion) are actually harder to learn to use Safely. Your natural impulse is to stay close to the trunk of the tree. Hug the tree with gaffs and you will probably "Cut Out" and (at the least) scuff yourself up. Learning to lean back and trust my flipline was harder for me than "swinging" on a rope (most of us learn to trust "swings" in kindergarten). If I had someone to teach me "The Ropes" when I first started climbing, I may never have bought gaffs. Regardless if I have gaffs, I would always want ropes. There are a lot of things you can do with ropes that you cannot do with gaffs (limb walking for instance). I can't think of anything you can do with gaffs that you cannot do with ropes (maybe Clearance can educate me). 

Gaffs are faster, thats all. Ropes are safer, easier on the trees, and can be used for more varied applications.

Learn to use the ropes first. Better for the tree and better for you.


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## clearance (Jun 28, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> Other side of the story - if you are in the tree and you are not using a chain saw, you probably are not doing a take down. There may be times when it is not economicly feasable to climb on ropes for pruning, but those times are rare. If you are just climbing for recreation, or to put up a deer stand, ropes are safer for you and better for the tree.
> 
> Gaffs injure the tree, and (my opinion) are actually harder to learn to use Safely. Your natural impulse is to stay close to the trunk of the tree. Hug the tree with gaffs and you will probably "Cut Out" and (at the least) scuff yourself up. Learning to lean back and trust my flipline was harder for me than "swinging" on a rope (most of us learn to trust "swings" in kindergarten).
> 
> Learn to use the ropes first. Better for the tree and better for you.


Fair enough.


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## AviD (Jun 28, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> If you are just climbing for recreation, or to put up a deer stand, ropes are safer for you and better for the tree.



I am, this is for hunting, primarily for hanging stands and doing light trimming for shooting lanes/clearance.

Again, I am willing to learn SRT and DRT, but setting up stand locations for dark ascents and dark descents will potentially be problematic, especially when trying to be mobile. Additionally, finding suitable trees for hunting that also have a crotch or limb high/strong enough for SRT/DRT may be difficult (cedars for example). Gaffs are commonly used by many hunters. Alternatives are treesteps and treesticks or climbing stands. I use treesteps, and have for over 15 years of hunting now and probably on maybe 100+ trees with no disease or deaths to those trees even after repeated/seasonal usage. (steps in and out, and then into a new hole again). I know this may be a sore topic for "traditionalists", so I don't want to get into an argument about it...just letting you know where I am coming from. Again, with gaffs, I know guys that have used them for hunting purposes for years, again on the same trees, and have had no problems and no signs of disease or death of the tree.




Fireaxman said:


> Gaffs injure the tree, and (my opinion) are actually harder to learn to use Safely. Your natural impulse is to stay close to the trunk of the tree. Hug the tree with gaffs and you will probably "Cut Out" and (at the least) scuff yourself up. Learning to lean back and trust my flipline was harder for me than "swinging" on a rope (most of us learn to trust "swings" in kindergarten). If I had someone to teach me "The Ropes" when I first started climbing, I may never have bought gaffs. Regardless if I have gaffs, I would always want ropes. There are a lot of things you can do with ropes that you cannot do with gaffs (limb walking for instance). I can't think of anything you can do with gaffs that you cannot do with ropes (maybe Clearance can educate me).
> 
> Gaffs are faster, thats all. Ropes are safer, easier on the trees, and can be used for more varied applications.
> 
> Learn to use the ropes first. Better for the tree and better for you.




Good points. A few things from my personal experience with climbing with my current methods. I use a lineman belt or full body harness system for the my climbs and stand hanging with a single lanyard. Leaning back on my lanyard is no problem whatsoever, in fact is the only way I can hang a stand with two free hands out and away from the tree while my feet are pivoted on treesteps.

I don't think I'll be doing any limb walking, I won't generally be climbing trees that large nor have any need to walk limbs.

I don't doubt rope techniques are superior in many ways, but as in all things, certain tools lend themselves to certain tasks. I would really enjoy the opportunity to learn about rope only climbing methods and how I can apply them to my hunting, but honestly don't know where to start in respect to finding a "trainer" or "teacher". I'm open to learning new things and have no qualms about climbing. In the interim and short term, my interests is learning and using what many hunters use now, which is gaffs. It could be they use them because they are easier, or because they don't know rope only methods, or because they are best suited for the task. I honestly don't know, just going with what I know (which is clearly limited).


Hence my question about how best to go about finding a teacher/training facility to learn about tree climbing. As I said I am open to learning various ways. 

I guess the best way to understand my needs is to imaging having to hike several miles into a remote piece of woods (someone knows where you are at, you are with a buddy, etc) and having to climb up in the dark, position a platform, stay put, and then climb back down in the dark. Various tree types, various conditions (warm, cold, rainy, snowy, etc), various clothing and booting (lighter in warm, heavier/bulkier in cold), various gear required (might require one or two haul lines). Speed isn't important, complete tree to tree mobility and lightweight gear is essential.

How best would you achieve this? And if I am not familiar with it (or if you were in my shoes), what would you recommend to learn the practice?


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## Jumper (Jun 29, 2006)

Tree Climbers' Companion is always a good place to start.


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## AviD (Jun 29, 2006)

Thanks Jumper, I'll definitely grab that book.

Another side question, where are there Arborist supply stores in the NJ area? I'd like to check out some of the products before purchasing to see if they suit my needs. I can only get so much from a picture view.

Anyone in the NJ area have any suggestions?


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## AviD (Jun 29, 2006)

Well just an update, I swung into a rock climbing store just to take a look at some of the Petzl microcenders, macrocenders, etc....they didn't have them, but the guy pointed me in the right direction. He told me about an Arborist supply store literally right down the street from where I live, kind of tucked back off the street, never knew it was there. I swung by, but it was closed, I'll try to get hours tomorrow and stop in to talk with whomever works there.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 30, 2006)

*Confessions of a Deer Hunter*

I gaffed trees and drove spikes to hang deer stands for years, before I knew anything about ropes. Made some pretty elaborate deer stands out of 3/4" pipe and nailed them to the tree. Some trees died. Some lived but had ugly sores. All the trees grew around the stands to the point that the stands were irretrievable. After Katrina my brother trashed a couple of saw chains trying to clear some of the trees I had nailed deer stands to from across our roads.

If you don't put your stands in marketable timber, or in aestheticly important trees, gaffs are faster. We put a lot of our stands in sweet gum (a weed species down here, and hard to kill even with 2,4D or 2,4,5T). Some of them we put in sub-dominant trees that were going to be shaded out or thinned anyway. How does your land owner feel about it? Does he manage for market?

I use rope now for hanging and servicing tree stands. More mobility once you are at height, without making spur tracks all around the tree, and I feel more secure hauling up my stand without having to worry about body position. I set most tree stands at 15 or 20 feet, within easy reach of a throw line. If you have a long clear stem, you can set a false crotch - but long clear stems are marketable - best not to trash them out with deer stands and spikes. Rope Climbing at night? I do it just for fun.

Try rope. You might like it. Wish I could be there to help, but I'll help any way I can by e-mail. "PM" or e-mail me. Do you ever get down south? 

Rope climbing sounds kind of complicated when you hear about split tails, advanced friction hitches, false crotches, etc.; but it can be very simple - throw line and weight, saddle, carabiner or locking rope snap, Blakes hitch, body thrust. If you can just watch somebody do it once, it will be clear to you. 

The only "extra" expense (assuming you already own flipline, spurs, pads, straps, and steel shanked boots) is throwline, weight, and rope. If you have not bought your spur climbing equipment yet, maybe ropes would be cheaper. To hang deer stands you can use Arbor-Plex rope at about $0.56 a foot (Sherrill, page 6).

When you get old like me you can even get your hunting buddy or young son to pull you up into the tree on double rope dynamic climbing systems. 

If you want to stick (pun intended) with the spurs, I would just encourage you to select weed species or otherwise undesirable trees for your stands. Nature has invested 30 to 120 years of energy into a tree big enough for a deer stand. Be a good steward.


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## AviD (Jun 30, 2006)

Well I went to the arborist supply store, they had a fair supply, but pretty small shop.

I did get a chance to look at the Klein spurs, as well as work with the Petzl microcender on some 1/2" rope...nice little device (considering what I've been using). I might grab two of those, along with two fliplines for my climbing purposes for a dual lanyard, allowing me to navigate branches.

I looked at the steel core flip lines, they are pretty heavy (ala the core)...not sure how necessary they will be for what I'm doing (no chainsaw work, so no really risk of cutting through the rope outside of using a handsaw).

I also picked up a copy of The Tree Climbers' Companion while I was there, looks quite nice...I'll be reading it over the next few days.  

I asked the shop owner about a training course and he said most guys just join a crew and learn from the experience guys. He also said most guys are not really "graduated arborists", so I'd imagine they are what many here call "hacks". We talked about hunting a bit and he said many of the local guys he knows use gaffs, especially for drives, just to get up 8-10 feet and over the brush. He acknowledged from a purist, arborist perspective, rope only is the only way it should be done unless you are removing, then gaffs are an OK option. Nice guy, was good chatting with him.

Interestingly, as I was in the store a customer was there talking about a tree that fell (couldnt tell if it was cut or fell naturally) and landed on his neighbors fence. He said something about his policy saying he wasn't responsible but his neighbors saying he was...so he wanted to split it 50/50 for the damages or something. I wasn't listening too closely, just hoped he didnt decide to cut a tree and it splashed down on his neighbors fence.  

I also spoke to a friend of mine, who is an ex lineman for a power company. We were talking about gaffs primarily and it was an informative discussion. We briefly discussed something that interested me, which was how climbers manage to gaff themselves either on the top of the foot or through the achilles tendon.

Question for the gaff crowd, how exactly does one manage to gaff themselves? I would think your feet would be on opposite sides of the tree (nearly) most of the time...at what point do your feet come that close in contact that you might actually step down and gaff yourself?

Anyway, that's the latest update.



Fireaxman:

Thanks for the feedback as well. I don't hunt from permanent stands, just portables, which strap onto the tree. No nailing going on. Most of the lands I hunt are public WMA, and I've called the Law Enforcement division on the use of gaffs and they said they do not see a problem with it. Nothing in the game code forbids the use of them either, and again I know many hunters do use them.

Rope climbing is definitely interesting to me, but as you said...it does seem complicated to a beginner. I can see setting up throw lines at my locations, and then packing a climbing rope in for a climb with ascenders/stirrups and swapping it with the throw line...but its positioning them that I can see be problematic for several of the trees I hunt. Plus I wouldn't have a universal secure point height for the climbing rope, so I'd have to imagine the worst case possible and get an appropriate length of rope.

Really alot to it, and I have a ton to learn on it. Unfortunately working a full time job, I can't get on a work crew and learn the ropes, so my only other option is formal training or self teaching. Anyway, thanks again for the feedback!


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## Fireaxman (Jun 30, 2006)

AviD said:


> ... I looked at the steel core flip lines, they are pretty heavy (ala the core)...not sure how necessary they will be for what I'm doing (no chainsaw work, so no really risk of cutting through the rope outside of using a handsaw).!



You are probably right, but it depends on how good your handsaw is. My Silky Sugoi would take a pretty good bite out of 1/2" arboplex if I got aggravated with a pinched saw and gave it a jerk at the wrong time. Steel core fliplines are also stiffer and easier to "Flip". Good info on this site available if you "Search" steel core.



AviD said:


> We briefly discussed something that interested me, which was how climbers manage to gaff themselves either on the top of the foot or through the achilles tendon.
> 
> Question for the gaff crowd, how exactly does one manage to gaff themselves? I would think your feet would be on opposite sides of the tree (nearly) most of the time...at what point do your feet come that close in contact that you might actually step down and gaff yourself?



(1). Check page 48 of Jepson's Tree Climber's Companion, "Climbing Tips". 

"Set gaffs firmly into the tree at a distance apart *no more than *the width of your shoulders". If your feet are on opposite sides of the tree you are hugging the tree, a sure recipe for a "Cut Out" and a face full of bark. Also, that would put your weight on your groin muscels, which are very weak compared to the muscels in the front of your leg. On small diameter trees your gaffs are much closer than shoulder width. Clearance could probably give us a good rule of thumb on this, but I would guess I keep my gaffs no more than shoulder width *or* no more than 1/3 of the diameter of the tree apart, whichever is less.

(2). If you go for the gaffs, you are going to be surprised to learn it aint as easy (or as safe) as it looks. People like Clearance that have been doing it every day for years forget how much coordination it takes. Foot coordination (without practice) is not nearly as good as hand coordination. Ask some of the girls I have danced with. I have not gaffed myself *yet*, partly because I was thoroughly warned before I started, but the fact that occasionally even some pros feed their gaffs a little fresh meat is a testament to how quickly it can happen. 




AviD said:


> I can see setting up throw lines at my locations, and then packing a climbing rope in for a climb with ascenders/stirrups and swapping it with the throw line...but its positioning them that I can see be problematic for several of the trees I hunt. Plus I wouldn't have a universal secure point height for the climbing rope, so I'd have to imagine the worst case possible and get an appropriate length of rope.!



How high are you setting your stands? Regardless of where the first solid branch is on the tree, all you need to carry in with you *for the hunt *is a little more than twice as much rope as the height of the stand. For me that is typicly 40 feet of 1/2" arboplex, since my highest stand is a little less than 20 feet.

When you first set your stand up, you need enough rope to reach the lowest solid natural crotch. But after you set your stand in place, install a "False Crotch" just a few feet above the stand. People like Tom Dunlap have posted very good illustrations of "Adjustable" False Crotches (adjustable for tree diameter, search "False Crotch") but it can be as simple as using a 10 or 15 foot piece of arboplex to tie a clove hitch with a better half around the trunk of the tree above the stand, then tie a locking carabiner or screw link (with lock tite) to the hanging end of the arboplex. Run a loop of parachute cord or throw line line through the screw link long enough to reach the ground.

When you go in for the hunt, carry 40 feet of arboplex and your saddle. Use the tag line to pull your climbing line through the screw link of the "False Crotch". Clip in, bounce on it a few times to make sure no critters have been chewing on your false crotch, make the climb, settle in for the hunt. The Blake's hitch and climbing line stay "Tied In" for security during the hunt. At the end of the season, you leave nothing behind but tracks. 



AviD said:


> Really alot to it, and I have a ton to learn on it. Unfortunately working a full time job, I can't get on a work crew and learn the ropes, so my only other option is formal training or self teaching.



Spur climbing is harder than it sounds. Rope climbing is easier than it sounds. Ask the dealer you met if he knows of any recreational climbers in your area. They climb just for fun, and would be glad to "Show you the Ropes". Or post in the "Recreational" forum here at arboristsite, and/or at any of the other web forums. Google search "Recreational Climbing". Check out "Tree Climbers International". See if any of your local schools have a "Climbing Wall", many of the techniques between rock climbing and tree climbing are the same. Recreational climbing is an excellent sport, there are more of us around than you would guess. There are also at least a couple of very good recreational climbing schools, one in Georgia, maybe there is one near you.

Private Message "Moss", active in this forum and a very good resource. He is from the Northeast (Mass.). Maybe he can give you some leads.


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## clearance (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for being so civil, Fireaxeman. Anyways, on to spurs, I have never gaffed my flesh, lucky, I know people who have, nasty stab wound. I have gaffed out before, a couple of times with both spurs at the same time, scary as I was freeclimbing once. I hold my scare strap when I climb so that if I gaff out and go down the tree for a few feet, my hands rub the tree, not my face. If you gaff out you stop pretty soon, but its a little alarming. Whatever you do, be safe.


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## AviD (Jul 1, 2006)

Fireaxman:

Thanks again for the detailed response, alot of good info there.

It's funny you said this:



> "Set gaffs firmly into the tree at a distance apart no more than the width of your shoulders". If your feet are on opposite sides of the tree you are hugging the tree, a sure recipe for a "Cut Out" and a face full of bark. Also, that would put your weight on your groin muscels, which are very weak compared to the muscels in the front of your leg. On small diameter trees your gaffs are much closer than shoulder width. Clearance could probably give us a good rule of thumb on this, but I would guess I keep my gaffs no more than shoulder width or no more than 1/3 of the diameter of the tree apart, whichever is less.



because I read it shortly after posting. TCC is an excellent little book, just a ton of great information.

I was studying the false crotch and adjustable false crotch diagrams as well, again very good info on it. I will see what I can do to find some recreational climbers in the area and learn the ropes. 

As far as heights, it somewhat varies...anywhere from 20-35 feet depending on location, time of year, relative weapon, available cover, etc. So I would need a pretty versatile rope to accomodate the worst case height scenario.

Thanks again for the great info, clearance as well. I appreciate your civility and detailed responses! 

Be safe.


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## jmack (Jul 1, 2006)

AviD said:


> Ultimately I just want to learn climbing techniques, not interested in running chainsaws, not doing any heavy cutting/lowering or anything. Primarily gaff climbing and gear selection (harness, lanyard, etc)...but would like to learn single and double rope techniques eventually as well. I know the gaff vs non-gaff crowd is pretty split here, but for my climbing application, they are what I am interested in initially. I've extracted quite a bit of info on here as far as some of the gear, but I'd prefer to spend some time with an experienced climber rather than just reading and applying. I'm confident I can learn it on my own and I have non-climber profession friends that use gaffs and could "show me", but doing it the smart/right/safe way with someone that has the professional experience is my preference.


 whole lot here,again why?


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## AviD (Jul 1, 2006)

jmack, why what? Why do I want to learn to climb or why do I want an experienced person to show me?

Stated earlier, the reason is for hunting purposes. Minor trimming with a hand or pole saw when need be, but generally just for climbing trees to attach portable platforms (strap or chain wraps around the tree and secures to a platform, all are TMA certified for safety). No chainsawing at all, and the climbing will be roughly 1-2 times per week between July-March, and maybe 5-7 days per week through some of November and December.


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## lync (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm sure you do some pre-hunt scouting for rubs and droppings. Why not set a throw line and leave it in the tree while your scouting, then when your going to hunt pull thru the climbing line tie it off at the base, use a set of handled ascenders srt to gain access. You could set up numerous trees just leave the throw lines in place. Trim branches set lines one day climb and hunt, the next.

Corey


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## AviD (Jul 3, 2006)

lync said:


> I'm sure you do some pre-hunt scouting for rubs and droppings. Why not set a throw line and leave it in the tree while your scouting, then when your going to hunt pull thru the climbing line tie it off at the base, use a set of handled ascenders srt to gain access. You could set up numerous trees just leave the throw lines in place. Trim branches set lines one day climb and hunt, the next.
> 
> Corey



Corey, I am thinking about this approach more now that I've purchased TCC.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

Corey's honing in on how simple it can be.


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## treeseer (Jul 4, 2006)

Before your state's forest service says it's hunky-dory to spike their trees, they should review the up-and-coming pests that can cause them serious losses.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

Yea, and in given the right set of gear and technique, spikes are just extra luggage to hump in.


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## jmack (Jul 5, 2006)

AviD said:


> Well I went to the arborist supply store, they had a fair supply, but pretty small shop.
> 
> I did get a chance to look at the Klein spurs, as well as work with the Petzl microcender on some 1/2" rope...nice little device (considering what I've been using). I might grab two of those, along with two fliplines for my climbing purposes for a dual lanyard, allowing me to navigate branches.
> 
> ...


what store??


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## jmack (Jul 5, 2006)

AviD said:


> jmack, why what? Why do I want to learn to climb or why do I want an experienced person to show me?
> 
> Stated earlier, the reason is for hunting purposes. Minor trimming with a hand or pole saw when need be, but generally just for climbing trees to attach portable platforms (strap or chain wraps around the tree and secures to a platform, all are TMA certified for safety). No chainsawing at all, and the climbing will be roughly 1-2 times per week between July-March, and maybe 5-7 days per week through some of November and December.


your end goal was what i wanted, you stated it and looks like you got help on yur ?? good luck to ya


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