# Is oak hard on chains?



## Sheldon Cooper (Jan 1, 2012)

Was cutting up some big frozen oak trees today with a freshly ground chain. The chain went dull after 1 tank of fuel. Is this normal for oak, I've never cut this stuff before. Running RSC .375 chain and a 25" bar on a 660. I touched up the chain with the file and it made no difference, I had the wood smoking and not cutting. Should I be using semi chisel for a hard wood like oak or a semi skip?opcorn:


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## lmbrman (Jan 1, 2012)

oak can be hard on chains, especially frozen white oak, but it sounds like you have more than the average dulling problem -

trees near a plowed field can have sand imbedded in the tree - not sure if that is an issue where you are


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## PA Plumber (Jan 1, 2012)

Working on a 42" Diameter downed, frozen, White Oak, I could get 2 blocking cuts until the chain needed touched up again.

This past June, I could get 3 tanks of gas out of a sharp chain, cutting on a 44" diameter White Oak.

Maybe temp had something to do with it, or maybe there was more abrassives in the first tree. 

I don't have as much trouble keeping a chain sharp in Red Oak.


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## CTYank (Jan 1, 2012)

Sheldon Cooper said:


> Was cutting up some big frozen oak trees today with a freshly ground chain. The chain went dull after 1 tank of fuel. Is this normal for oak, I've never cut this stuff before. Running RSC .375 chain and a 25" bar on a 660. I touched up the chain with the file and it made no difference, I had the wood smoking and not cutting. Should I be using semi chisel for a hard wood like oak or a semi skip?opcorn:



How did you guide the file? Makes all the difference. Been using Granberg's guide for 35+, and it makes it simple to touch up the cutting edges precisely in a few strokes. I suspect strongly that you did NOT sharpen the chain. Frozen wood, really frozen wood, will dull a chain quickly, but you can sharpen it even more quickly. I suspect that semi-chisel will dull more slowly in frozen wood; experts will hopefully enlighten.

Running any chainsaw to send smoke-signals really beats on b&c and engine. Not advised.


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## indiansprings (Jan 1, 2012)

Don't know where you are located, but we prolly cut 80% oak in our firewood business. Normally it would be more red oak than white, but this last piece of property has had as much white oak if not more than red oak. We don't have dandy soil conditions, really the only dirty conditions we fight is when we drag tops to a central cutting/splitting "landing". Normally we do not see much of a difference between the red and white oak, but most of our wood has been off the stump for four to six months if not longer, so if it does freeze the moisture content isn't very high. About a month ago I ran into a tree I dropped that was one of the worst "wind shook" or twisted tree's I've ever run into, up on flat prairie ground by out by itself, not dirty, but it was sue hell on chains. It seemed like it took two or three times the normal amount of filing.
Depending on the soil conditions around your location I'd say that has prolly more to do with dirt or sand in the wood vs. it being frozen. We cut frozen oak all the time and don't see the conditions like you've described with this tree.


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## dingeryote (Jan 1, 2012)

OP, Is the soil around there predominantly sandy or sandy loam?

Usually Oak isn't too bad on chains, frozen or not, unless the local soil has gotten into the bark, then it's game on, and time to grab a loop of semi-chisel. High silica soils can also make for trees that eat chains. I can go 5 Miles from here and get double the time between touch ups, but head into our woodlot, and the sparks fly from the silica.

Either way, Semi-chisel is the answer. 

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## rob066 (Jan 1, 2012)

I cut White Oaks that have been dead for a few years. Trust me they are cured so hard the sparks fly off the chain at dusk. The Red oaks tend to be softer and cut like butter compared to them White Oaks. One problem also with the White Oaks is that the bark that is left on them has a thin layer of dirt on them from decay. Sharp semi chisel all the way for Oak duty. The bark peels of the Red Oak easy but not so easy on the White Oaks. The Red and White Oaks have been down the same priod of time. I normally dont have to sharpen to often though maybe every tank and a half. .


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## sb47 (Jan 1, 2012)

I cut a lot of water oak (don’t know if it’s the same as white oak) but I suspect it is.
I found that it depends a lot on the grain of the wood. Get near forks where the grain changes and it seems to get dull faster. 
I generally have to hit the chain with a file every tank but sometimes I get 2 tanks through before the fill is needed. It all depends on how long the cut is, if I stay on anything under 16” diameter I get better life on the chain but if I jump on the big stuff then chain sharpness goes way down. Probably do to more heat build up on the longer cuts. 
Surprisingly I had some pine about 18” and one pass through and it was dull city.lol
Bailed on that wood and through it all in the burn pile.lol


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## Chris-PA (Jan 1, 2012)

I cut up an oak on Friday - either a red or a shumard, I can't tell without the leaves - and it was about 36" at the base. I used my 24" bar with 72LGX full chisel, and it cut like butter. It did not dull very bad, I just had to sharpen it after I got back to the barn. It was green and not frozen though, it was one of several that fell over in October, and it was propped up by the root mass and a big branch - so clean and green. When I get into dry, dead oak you can sure feel how much harder it is to cut, even though most of the ones I find like that are much smaller.


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## c5rulz (Jan 1, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> Don't know where you are located, but we prolly cut 80% oak in our firewood business. Normally it would be more red oak than white, but this last piece of property has had as much white oak if not more than red oak. We don't have dandy soil conditions, really the only dirty conditions we fight is when we drag tops to a central cutting/splitting "landing". Normally we do not see much of a difference between the red and white oak, but most of our wood has been off the stump for four to six months if not longer, so if it does freeze the moisture content isn't very high. About a month ago I ran into a tree I dropped that was one of the worst "wind shook" or twisted tree's I've ever run into, up on flat prairie ground by out by itself, not dirty, but it was sue hell on chains. It seemed like it took two or three times the normal amount of filing.
> Depending on the soil conditions around your location I'd say that has prolly more to do with dirt or sand in the wood vs. it being frozen. We cut frozen oak all the time and don't see the conditions like you've described with this tree.



I agree with the above.

The worst is oak cull logs that were dragged when muddy and then froze with ice on them. 

Tops aren't quite so bad as the crown keeps the wood off the ground.

One of the worst tree I cut up was a sole shagbark hickory that sat all it life on the edge of a farm field. The bark was so full of dirt you coulnd't cut half a tank with touching up. That tree hadn't been dragged either.


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## Whitespider (Jan 1, 2012)

I cut a lot of frozen hardwood during the winter months; not a lot of White Oak, but a lot of Bur Oak (which is a kissin'-cousin). My woodlot, like most any woodlot in Iowa, is surrounded by farm fields and limestone gravel roads... if'n there's gonna be dirt in the bark, we'll have it. Cutting frozen hardwood I don't have to sharpen near as often as many others say they do.?.?.?.?

Three things come quickly to mind as possible explanations why your chain dulled so quickly...


Who did the grinding on your chain? Could they have over-heated the cutters, taking out the temper?
Top-plate angle... if you're sharpening at 35-degrees it will dull really fast in frozen hardwood. A 30-degree, or even better, a 25-degree top-plate angle is gonna' last a lot longer in frozen hardwood. Fresh off the file a 25-degree won't cut quite as fast as a 35-degree, but it will cut a whole lot longer before dulling... a whole lot longer!
If the wood is frozen I'm assuming its really cold where you're at. Are you running a winter grade bar oil? If the chain ain't getting enough lube it's gonna' over-heat and dull fast.


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## Sheldon Cooper (Jan 1, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> oak can be hard on chains, especially frozen white oak, but it sounds like you have more than the average dulling problem -
> 
> trees near a plowed field can have sand imbedded in the tree - not sure if that is an issue where you are



The trees are from an old farm stead that my buddy dug up for more farm land. I try not to cut dirty wood but it's been pushed around on the ground a lot.


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## Sheldon Cooper (Jan 1, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> OP, Is the soil around there predominantly sandy or sandy loam?
> 
> Usually Oak isn't too bad on chains, frozen or not, unless the local soil has gotten into the bark, then it's game on, and time to grab a loop of semi-chisel. High silica soils can also make for trees that eat chains. I can go 5 Miles from here and get double the time between touch ups, but head into our woodlot, and the sparks fly from the silica.
> 
> ...



It's potatoe soil around here soil it has sand in it. Normally I cut a lot of poplar and a chain seems to last forever in that stuff. All these trees are just pushed up in a wind row so it's probably not ideal cutting. I'm not sure if I should waste anymore time with it or just find standing timber instead. So frustrated because I finally found some nice big oak I can cut up but cutting it is the problem it seems. Does semi chisel handle dirty wood better?


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## Sheldon Cooper (Jan 1, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> I cut a lot of frozen hardwood during the winter months; not a lot of White Oak, but a lot of Bur Oak (which is a kissin'-cousin). My woodlot, like most any woodlot in Iowa, is surrounded by farm fields and limestone gravel roads... if'n there's gonna be dirt in the bark, we'll have it. Cutting frozen hardwood I don't have to sharpen near as often as many others say they do.?.?.?.?
> 
> Three things come quickly to mind as possible explanations why your chain dulled so quickly...
> 
> ...



I grind all my own chains on an Oregon grinder and I'm very fussy with them being perfect. I never overheat the metal. I grind at 30 degrees top plate and 60 side plate by 0 gullet. I run light bar oil in the cold. My filling isn't that great because I don't have enough practice and I find it hard even using a guide. I do about 4 strokes a tooth, after about 2 tanks of fuel, is that enough?


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## TXTreeSurgeon (Jan 1, 2012)

Dead oak is hard on chains. I cut mostly standing dead oak since that is what landowners will allow me to cut for firewood. I use only RSC (full-chisel) now and usually sharpen every 2 tanks of fuel, but it all depends on the conditions. I have sometimes gone for hours without sharpening, and I have sometimes had to stop to sharpen before refueling. I have found that lowering the rakers a little bit helps my chain get more of a bite. This seems to blunt the effect of a dull chain (notice that pun?). Try using semi-chisel and lower the rakers a little more than you normally run them. Don't get too carried away though, because the saw will bounce all over the place if the rakers are too low.

By the way, I notice that my chain stretches a lot when I noodle dead oak. I guess this is due to overheating. I have to tighten my chain every tank of fuel when noodling that stuff. I have one chain that won't fit on the 20" bar anymore because it is too stretched, but it still has some life in the teeth. Tough stuff that dead oak!


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## dingeryote (Jan 1, 2012)

Sheldon Cooper said:


> It's potatoe soil around here soil it has sand in it. Normally I cut a lot of poplar and a chain seems to last forever in that stuff. All these trees are just pushed up in a wind row so it's probably not ideal cutting. I'm not sure if I should waste anymore time with it or just find standing timber instead. So frustrated because I finally found some nice big oak I can cut up but cutting it is the problem it seems. Does semi chisel handle dirty wood better?



Yep! 3-1. Semi-chisel will deal with that a LOT better. Anything that has been skidded, dragged or pushed and then parked near a routinely plowed field is going to eat chisel chain. 

Get a loop of Stihl RMC, or Baileys SC on the saw, and give that Oak hell. 
You might still have to touch up every tank, but it wont fall plumb off and go to shooting powder after a couple cuts like with Chisel.
It's also a lot more forgiving to file in the field. 

Screw Popple when there's Oak to be had. 
Good luck to ya!


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## DarkTimber (Jan 1, 2012)

Cut some red oak a few years back that was 2 years dead and had been lightning struck on top of that now that was some hard oak 3 cuts then take about 5 to 10 strokes on each tooth to get it back up to snuff. I have to agree with the others who have said go semi chisel but must add my on 2 cents worth if you run into trees like this very often or in the habit of getting give away wood such as I am invest in a .404 rim for your 066 and a bar and chain to match .404 semi chisel or micro chisel is real good in dirty or really hard wood and the edge lasts a long time. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Whitespider (Jan 2, 2012)

Yep, semi-chisel will hold up a lot longer in tough, dirty conditions... at least twice as long, if not longer.
When I'm cutting standing-dead, blow-downs, flush-cutting stumps, even close-to-the-ground felling cuts and around crotches on live trees I stick a semi-chisel chain sharpened to 30[sup]o[/sup] on the bar. Also, semi-chisel doesn't seem to get _as_ dull... or at least will keep cutting even when dull? Again, fresh out'a the box a semi-chisel won't cut quite as fast, but will cut a lot longer between sharpening.

Something else... and I'm not trying to bad-mouth chain grinders, or put anyone down for using a grinder... but I've always found that a file sharpened chain will out-last and out-cut one that's been sharpened on a grinder. No matter how careful the operator is, it's impossible to grind steel to a fine edge without over-heating that micro-thin leading edge, especially at the junction of the side and top plates. You may not see the over-heating, but it's there... enough that it takes more than a couple swipes with a file to remove.


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## olyman (Jan 2, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> Don't know where you are located, but we prolly cut 80% oak in our firewood business. Normally it would be more red oak than white, but this last piece of property has had as much white oak if not more than red oak. We don't have dandy soil conditions, really the only dirty conditions we fight is when we drag tops to a central cutting/splitting "landing". Normally we do not see much of a difference between the red and white oak, but most of our wood has been off the stump for four to six months if not longer, so if it does freeze the moisture content isn't very high. About a month ago I ran into a tree I dropped that was one of the worst "wind shook" or twisted tree's I've ever run into, up on flat prairie ground by out by itself, not dirty, but it was sue hell on chains. It seemed like it took two or three times the normal amount of filing.
> Depending on the soil conditions around your location I'd say that has prolly more to do with dirt or sand in the wood vs. it being frozen. We cut frozen oak all the time and don't see the conditions like you've described with this tree.



ive had some frozen trees,,rip the chisel chain,,and others not..in the same soil and wind conditions...hard to figure,sometimes..


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## olyman (Jan 2, 2012)

Sheldon Cooper said:


> The trees are from an old farm stead that my buddy dug up for more farm land. I try not to cut dirty wood but it's been pushed around on the ground a lot.



sheldon,,you answered your own que,,dirt plus!! go to semi chisel. it will help..


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## saw dog (Jan 2, 2012)

Watch the amount of hook on the tooth, to much hook in frozen wood dulls rapidly. Lowering the rackers enough to to get a bight in frozen wood is a must, if the chain isn,t getting a bight it will dull prematurly just spinning in ice impragnated oak.


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## Sheldon Cooper (Jan 2, 2012)

I also tried grinding my chain with a .404 width wheel to see if there was a difference in cutting. I don't know if it helped or made things worse in that oak using a .375 chain. It did open up the gullet of the chain quite a bit.


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## jonas302 (Jan 2, 2012)

Probably just me but I would never give up on Oak for firewood Forget about that electric grinder get a file in your pocket and sharpen whenever necessary a stump vise will help in the field you will get the hang of it fast enough even if it isn't perfect 

If nothing else get a carbide chain from Baileys or take an Axe and knock the bark off where it is dirty


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## rtrsam (Jan 2, 2012)

Sheldon Cooper said:


> I also tried grinding my chain with a .404 width wheel to see if there was a difference in cutting. I don't know if it helped or made things worse in that oak using a .375 chain. It did open up the gullet of the chain quite a bit.



.404 versus .375 refers to the pitch of the chain, the distance between the drive links. It has nothing to do necessarilly with the thickness of the wheel or its performance on your chains.

I've taught people to hand file chains and always tell them, if you can't recognize a sharp tooth, you'll never be able to sharpen a chain. Same applies to using a grinder, if you con't know to the tiniest detail what a sharp tooth looks like, you'll never be successful at sharpening a chain with a grinder. The fact that a new (or different) wheel "opened up the gullet" of your chain probably just means the new wheel was slightly larger diameter (not thickness) than the weel you took off, therefor it reached a little deeper into the gullet.

Regardless of the brand chain you use, Oregon produces a pretty good reference manual (OREGON Maintenance Manual) with images to show what sharp teeth look like, as well as a description of spme pf the damage that might happen to your teeth that could cause difficulties in sharpening.

Frozen or thawed, hard or soft, a properly sharpened chain will cut a lot of wood before it gets dull. If your freshly ground or files chain does not cut long before getting dull, it was (a) not sharpened correctly, or (b) there is other stuff than wood getting cut (sand, dirt, rocks in the bark or wood).


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## flyboy553 (Jan 2, 2012)

About the only wood I cut is oak. In fact, I am sure it is over 10 years since I have cut anything other than oak. Mostly red oak, some burr oak and pin oak. If I cut any green oak, it has been blown down. By far, the majority of what I cut is either standing dead or down and dead oak.

I guess I just don't know what it is like to cut anything else! I touch my chain up about every other tank of gas. Some times, if I keep it out of the dirty bark and the dirt, I can cut nearly half a day without touching the chain up. I use Stihl semi-chisel as much as I can, but if I have to put a different chain on, it is Stihl full chisel. 

I cleaned out a wind break between 2- 100 acre fields a couple yrs ago that was pure he** on chains though. When you walk up to the windbreak and that area is 3 or 4 feet higher than the fields, you know you have some nasty cutting coming up!

Ted


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## J.W Younger (Jan 2, 2012)

Best I can tell oak thats dullin chain with no metal or rocks in it has dirt grown in it fer whatever reason. Thats why we have semi chisel. Purty much the same fer hickory and all of it..Near the ground its all likely to have dirt in it cept for some of the slick bark stuff. Deal with it best you can, git wood under it before you drop it and don.t drag it if you don't have too.


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## sunfish (Jan 2, 2012)

I cut mostly dead Oak, standing, or blow downs and a lot of it. 

I much prefer semi chisel. Stays sharp longer and is easier to sharpen with a file. No grinder here!


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

sunfish said:


> I cut mostly dead Oak, standing, or blow downs and a lot of it.
> 
> I much prefer semi chisel. Stays sharp longer and is easier to sharpen with a file. No grinder here!



After hours of cussing at my grinder, I have found a use for it... Cleaning up angles, and making the next hand filing more productive... I can also sharpen half a dozen of my brother in law's trench digging / fence cutting / rock carving chains while off the bar. Other than that, that grinder really is a POS...
I too am gravitating toward the semi chisel for real production work... I can just get more mileage out of it between touch ups...


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## J.W Younger (Jan 3, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> After hours of cussing at my grinder, I have found a use for it... Cleaning up angles, and making the next hand filing more productive... I can also sharpen half a dozen of my brother in law's trench digging / fence cutting / rock carving chains while off the bar. Other than that, that grinder really is a POS...
> I too am gravitating toward the semi chisel for real production work... I can just get more mileage out of it between touch ups...


Like you seen I file square, it takes longer, about as long per side as both sides round. If the side plate is near verticle and the angles are @ 45 top and side the point is well supported and pretty durable. As long as one saw is set up with semi for the flush cuts, hollow sections and other dirty stuff the chisel holds up well ,longs you don't trench it or hit something. No way it'd work in that yellow stuff you cut tho, but I'd stihl trade you my oak and hickory for it


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> Like you seen I file square, it takes longer, about as long per side as both sides round. If the side plate is near verticle and the angles are @ 45 top and side the point is well supported and pretty durable. As long as one saw is set up with semi for the flush cuts, hollow sections and other dirty stuff the chisel holds up well ,longs you don't trench it or hit something. No way it'd work in that yellow stuff you cut tho, but I'd stihl trade you my oak and hickory for it



I loved how smooth that square filed stuff was you had at the GTG... I got a hot 028 wood boss that sure could use one filed up for a 16" .325 to play with J.W.. 
Trade for some Hedge???
:msp_rolleyes:


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## J.W Younger (Jan 3, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I loved how smooth that square filed stuff was you had at the GTG... I got a hot 028 wood boss that sure could use one filed up for a 16" .325 to play with J.W..
> Trade for some Hedge???
> :msp_rolleyes:


done deal...
We'll giterdun then.


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> done deal...
> We'll giterdun then.



Make it extra sharp... I gotta kick Sunfish's butt... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## J.W Younger (Jan 3, 2012)

I'll try and do u up a 67link fore the next gtg. Strickly fer play tho. Think I got a purty good handle on just how narrow u can git away with after fubarin a couple


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## Misfit138 (Jan 3, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> I cut up an oak on Friday... It was green and not frozen... When I get into dry, dead oak you can sure feel how much harder it is to cut....




I have the same experience with Oak. Around here there's lots of it. When cutting green, the water literally sprays out of the wood and cutting is much easier.
Dry Oak has always chewed up my chains.


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

Want hard??? This is hard... :hmm3grin2orange:

[video=youtube;qY6jrrs8r_8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY6jrrs8r_8&list=UUfB03KVhJRBISPufMa8F7GA&index=26&feature=plcp[/video]


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## Misfit138 (Jan 3, 2012)

Osage Orange? Mulberry?


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

Misfit138 said:


> Osage Orange? Mulberry?



Yup, it's a big Hedge post... And that's a vicious 372 Stumpy had just ported... Hank Chinaski got that one...


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## sunfish (Jan 3, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Make it extra sharp... I gotta kick Sunfish's butt... :hmm3grin2orange:



You and Stumpy both better come up with something HOT to beat the old 346xp. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Hedgerow (Jan 3, 2012)

sunfish said:


> You and Stumpy both better come up with something HOT to beat the old 346xp. :hmm3grin2orange:



Workin on it... And if I don't, we can sit around the fire and drown my sorrows...:hmm3grin2orange:


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## sunfish (Jan 3, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Workin on it... And if I don't, we can sit around the fire and drown my sorrows...:hmm3grin2orange:



With a fine bourbon or three... :msp_thumbup:


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## Hedgerow (Jan 4, 2012)

sunfish said:


> With a fine bourbon or three... :msp_thumbup:



After three or so, we may just say forget the saws, and open a discussion on fried fish...
:msp_rolleyes:


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## sunfish (Jan 4, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> After three or so, we may just say forget the saws, and open a discussion on fried fish...
> :msp_rolleyes:



Now you're talkin Bro!!! :msp_biggrin:


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## Hedgerow (Jan 4, 2012)

sunfish said:


> Now you're talkin Bro!!! :msp_biggrin:



This thread has been derailed by FISH!!! The only topic as awesome as Saws!!!


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## sunfish (Jan 4, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> This thread has been derailed by FISH!!! The only topic as awesome as Saws!!!



NICE ONE, Bro!!!

And when fried up crispy, it taste better than saw chain. And stuff! :msp_biggrin:


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## J.W Younger (Jan 4, 2012)

Sure do like me sum big mouth, caught a bunch of em from our pond when i wus a kid.


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