# If you only had $20k to spend on a grinder...



## captain2morrow (Jul 11, 2006)

If you had *$20,000 *to start a small stump grinder business, what equipment would you buy?

Your client base is primarily suburban residences, many of them gated. Some hills, some flat land - mostly small to medium size stumps. You are not taking down the trees - just grinding the stumps.

You have used various brands of rented equipment (mostly junk), but have no brand loyalty. All the major brands have decent local dealer support or there are independent repair shops available to you. 

This would potentially represent up to 50% of your income - the other 50% would come from related seasonal lawn maintenance work.

You need a grinder, good chain saw and related gear, and a trailer to haul it to sites. You already have a good full-size pickup to use.

Let's start with just the grinder purchase - what models would be on your short list to give SERIOUS consideration? What model would be the best fit for this situation?


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## 911crash (Jul 11, 2006)

definately go with a mid size grinder either a vermeer or carlton, not sure of any reports on the new bandit grinders. I started with a 1625 rayco which served its purpose for the time then moved up to sc352 which is about twice as effecient as the other. one thing i try to think when im buying equipment is will i out grow this machine in 6 months or so. if you can go bigger than do it. you"ll always use and you won"t have any regrets. The only choice you have to make is your mfg. if you can try and demo acouble of mchines. good luck, you can definately make some coin stumping only.


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## jazak (Jul 11, 2006)

I would get a new or slightly used Carlton SP4012 with the Lombardini diesel. New I think they go for $14-16K. Then for the saw I would get a Stihl 440 and for the trailer maybe inclosed probobly not like a 6x12 or 7x14.

BTW Stay FAR AWAY from VERMEER they are known to tip easy, be under powered and overall just not a good machine.


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## captain2morrow (Jul 11, 2006)

With all the maintenance issues with grinders, are used machines really a good bet?


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## Oly's Stump (Jul 11, 2006)

I would recommend a used Rayco RG 50. You should a decent one for that amount!


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## Plyscamp (Jul 12, 2006)

No matter which machine you are looking at, Vermeer, Carlton or Rayco Etc. pay attention to the available torque provided by the engine. Horsepower does not mean much on a stump grinder. 
For example the 25 Horsepower Kohler that came on my Vermeer SC252 provides about 40 foot pounds of torque. The 28 Horsepower Lombardini 8LD-740-2 Diesel I replaced it with provides 65 foot pounds of torque. The new Briggs & Stratton Engines 31 to 35 Horsepower are providing Torque in the low to mid 50 foot pound range.
When the cutting gets tough the torque is what keeps the cutting wheel up to speed not the horsepower. The additional torque has at least doubled the cutting speed of my grinder. This makes for a small grinder that grinds like a big grinder.
I demoed the SC352 a while back and its a nice grinder but far to bulky to get in and out of the small back yards in southern California. The Rayco RG50 has the same problem.

What ever you buy make sure you get a Demo and run them before making your purchase decission.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 12, 2006)

Definately start with a hydraulic controlled portable - you mentioned residential stumps and just getting started. A good portable will do all the stumps and let you get into the tight places.

I've got a 25HP Kohler and the new Vanguards will smoke it! If I was buying new I would take a look at that engine!!!!

Once your business grows, keep the small machine you've already bought and go to a large self propelled or track. Then you'll have both bases covered.

Whatever you do - STAY IN NJ!!!!!


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## captain2morrow (Jul 12, 2006)

Can anybody give me specific models to check out?

Thanks,

Doug in Tennessee


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## superior72 (Jul 12, 2006)

If I were you I would have a look at the Alpine Magnum as a smaller machine with BIG results, I only run this in my business, and I am very busy. I can go through ANY gate and gind in any weather or place, on any size stump. Dont let anyone sway you, look for the best options for your area. I cand spend all my time grinding stumps that other guys just cant get to. Plus new tree take downs on top of that. Dont need a trailer and machine is no more maintenance than a saw.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 12, 2006)

One brand new vermeer 252,simply the best for residential work ,and there great for 600 hours,I know I had one!!,and add a husky 385!!


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## John464 (Jul 12, 2006)

Plyscamp said:


> . The 28 Horsepower Lombardini 8LD-740-2 Diesel I replaced it with provides 65 foot pounds of torque. .



which grinder is this? both bandit and carlton offer lambardini I believe?


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## Bigstumps (Jul 12, 2006)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> One brand new vermeer 252,simply the best for residential work ,and there great for 600 hours,I know I had one!!,and add a husky 385!!



The 252 moves like a constipated turtle!!! :deadhorse: :deadhorse: I'll be done grinding before its off the trailer!!! Are you the Digg'in Dutchmen??


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## Curbside (Jul 12, 2006)

Hey Plyscamp


You put the diesel on the 252? What modifications did you have to do if any? Does it make the machine any bigger or can it still get in the same as the Kohler? How about the weight difference and does that cause any unforseen problems? Do you have any pictures?


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## captain2morrow (Jul 12, 2006)

I have had suggestions to look at the Vermeer 252, Carlton 4012, and Rayco 1625 & 1631. Anyone compared these particular machines? Anyone have recent prices for these machines?


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## a_lopa (Jul 13, 2006)

a second hand 1625 and a second hand tow behind 10k each.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 13, 2006)

Bigstumps said:


> The 252 moves like a constipated turtle!!! :deadhorse: :deadhorse: I'll be done grinding before its off the trailer!!! Are you the Digg'in Dutchmen??



Why the need to be in such a rush?? during the 5 years I owned my 252 it was reliable,it cut well,it could tackle big and smal stumps,it could get through tight garden gates.And unlike the guys who used a manual swing machine I came home relatively energetic,and shoulders in one peice..

Briggs and stratton engines please!!


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 13, 2006)

One other thing theres no way in hell I would buy a second hand stump 'gas' grinder!!

Get a vermeer 252 they are the best,by far...................


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## jazak (Jul 13, 2006)

252s are POS they tip easy, are slow, and are way under powered, plus don't have the best componants.
Carlton 4012 or Rayco is yor best bet Vermeer and Brush Bandit don't even come close to the performance of those two.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 13, 2006)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> Briggs and stratton engines please!!




I know Briggs & Stratton does build some junk - small cheap engines for small cheap mowers - heck you can buy a complete mower at Wal - Mart for $145.00!!

The Vanguards are Briggs/Daihatsu (sic) made in Japan. They are smooth, quiet and powerful. Demo one!!


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## John464 (Jul 13, 2006)

jazak said:


> 252s are POS they tip easy, are slow, and are way under powered, plus don't have the best componants.
> Carlton 4012 or Rayco is yor best bet Vermeer and Brush Bandit don't even come close to the performance of those two.


the Vermeer 352 is the best and I believe the most powerful portable in it's price range. atleast it was when I bought them a few years back. I agree with you on the 252's (i had one for about a year)....way too slow

Rolla,
there is a need to be in a rush. instead of the crew of 4 guys watching you grind the stumps. by the time they are done raking up.... the stump is out. then its time for them to fill in the hole(s).

Carlton and Rayco do make some nice machine, but are more $$ than the 352 in similar power sizes


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## stumpy66 (Jul 13, 2006)

the 352 means you can tackle anything.....the 252 is a lazy mans dosko...sorry lee.....it would be nice to have a tracked 60 horse.....but 352 with a narrow pedestrian machine...or magnum is the way to go....+ the right attitude....that goes a long way.....


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 13, 2006)

THE 252 DOES NOT TIP EASY ,if you use the extra wheels and or common sense! I know one thing the 252 out sells most introductory machines 2 to 1..

Jazak have you ever ''owned'' a 252??? I have and not a problem with componont's ,power or cutting ability in 5 years ! [remember this guy is doing domestic stump cutting,not lot clearing] if you think a 252 is a POS i'd take a look at the operator first,I know some who shouldn't be let loose with a wheel barrow let alone a stump grinder!!

Sharp teeth are what you need with ALL stump grinders,and patience.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 13, 2006)

Bigstumps said:


> I know Briggs & Stratton does build some junk - small cheap engines for small cheap mowers - heck you can buy a complete mower at Wal - Mart for $145.00!!
> 
> The Vanguards are Briggs/Daihatsu (sic) made in Japan. They are smooth, quiet and powerful. Demo one!!



We get Brigs vanguards over here little chitty units under 15 hp ,but yes mate know where your coming from I have a Diahatsu/Vanguard on my 352..


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 13, 2006)

jazak said:


> 252s are POS they tip easy, are slow, and are way under powered,.



Last time I checked the 252 and 4012 both had the same gas engine.


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## a_lopa (Jul 13, 2006)

any grinders easy to tip over with the "right"operator,a new set of teeth on 252/ 1625 you will get thru some big stumps.


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## Curbside (Jul 14, 2006)

I would not call my 252 a POS. It has been a work horse for many years and if the teeth are fairly fresh it cuts great. I do agree I wished it moved faster between stumps. My 252 does not get used as much now that I have 60TX but it still can get to tight areas that the 60TX can't. I would diffently like to find out about Plyscamp 28hp diesel on the 252. That way I would only have to carry one type of fuel and a few extra HP would be nice.


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## Plyscamp (Jul 14, 2006)

I posted last night and it did not show up on the thread.

In regards to modifications to install the diesel on the 252, I had to make a new engine mounting plate and shift the clutch, belts and jackshaft about 4 inches to left. The new jackshaft is custom made out of 1.5" 4130 steel and is 4" longer than the original and now rides on 3 Ea 1.5" Pillow block bearings. Clutch belts are 2 Ea. Standard BX65, Cutter head belts are 3 Ea. BX45. new mounting brackets for the engine to jackshaft belt cover. Return fuel line to the gas tank for excess fuel from the fuel injectors. And I am sure I am missing other misc. items.

This engine wieghs about 200 pounds more than the Kohler and is phisically much larger, However it has not hampered the accsess to tight areas. The newer 9LD (used on the Carlton) which replaced the 8LD is smaller and lighter and would not take as much modification to install. I stumbeled into a deal on 2 of the 8LD engines new on the pallets for the price of one 35 H.P. Briggs and decided to give it a try.

I see many of you complaining about the ground speed on the 252. Put a smaller Pulley on the hydraulic pump. I think the one we use is a 3.5" diameter 1/2" belt and a 9/16" inside diameter. you will also need a new 4L250 belt. This will increase your ground speed, up an down response and increase your swing speed.

Someone asked about pictures and I do have them, just not sure how to post them.


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## stumpy66 (Jul 14, 2006)

The fact that the 252 is surely the most available and the most used, proves that it is not a pos!!. Its a classic..


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## Bigstumps (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm not the one that called it a POS but I do think there are better options. The 252 was a inexpensive copy of the 1625 at the time. Vermeer didn't invent or even improve on the 1625. They took a 1625 and got rid of the ground stake and tongue extension and put their name on it. Since then Rayco has redesigned the 1625. 

Rayco and Carlton were making the small hydraulic self propelled machines for years (the 1620 and the 2000 both with 20HP Kohler magnums) while Vermeer was still making the old 176 handlebar ( which is probably the best handlebar (imo) ever made.)


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## captain2morrow (Jul 14, 2006)

Anybody have experience with the Rayco 1631??


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## jazak (Jul 15, 2006)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> Last time I checked the 252 and 4012 both had the same gas engine.



They do but Carlton has the Lombardini diesel as an optoin Vermeer does not and will not provide it because it will hurt sales for their 352s.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 15, 2006)

Carlton and Rayco also both offer larger gas engines. I've seen the 35 horse Carlton 4012 cut - pretty impressive. I own an older Carlton self propelled - no need for me to upgrade as I have larger machines also.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 16, 2006)

Bigstumps said:


> Carlton and Rayco also both offer larger gas engines. I've seen the 35 horse Carlton 4012 cut - pretty impressive. I own an older Carlton self propelled - no need for me to upgrade as I have larger machines also.



I don't think they do,well not according to their websites!!!


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## jazak (Jul 16, 2006)

Carlton SP4012 27-29hp Gas Kohler Command Pro
Gas Briggs & Straton
Diesel Lombardini

Carlton SP7015 48 or 60hp Diesel Duezt Turbocharged 

Rayco 1625A & 1625 Super JR. 25-30hp Kohler Command
Briggs & Straton

Rayco RG50 48hp Duezt diesel


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## Bigstumps (Jul 16, 2006)

jazak said:


> Gas Briggs & Straton




That's the 35HP. I've seen it at shows (Southern ISA) and in the field with the competition. My old 630 I started with only had 35HP!!! Like to have the pile of money that machine turned!!!!


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## Mowingman (Jul 16, 2006)

I would not buy anything that did not hve a local dealer for parts and service. That eliminates the Carlton, right off the bat for me, and I would think, most people. Seems like they have few dealers, or maybe they just sell direct, I am not sure. When I was looking, I called Carlton, and they gave me all kinds of assurances how they could get any needed parts to me next day. The sales guy said he would call me the next day to give me a price, that included freight to my town. Well, never heard back from anyone at Carlton. I figured if they could not remember to call me back with a price on a new machine, well, then good luck getting any parts out of them.
No matter how good a Carlton, or any machine is reported to be, I will not buy without a demo of the machine I am sinking money into.
Now, as to the question, here is what I just did.
Rayco 1625A, new: Price with tax $13,600.00
Used 6x10, tilt bed trailer: " " " $675.00
Pickup, (already have one) 
Total invested to start my Stump grinding business: $14,275.00

I work a little, two evenings/week, and a half day on Saturday, and, am grossing about $800.00/week. I am stil increasing my pricing a little, as I am well below what my 2 competitors charge. However, I refuse to rip off customers like they do.


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## jazak (Jul 16, 2006)

You may need a saw or two.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 16, 2006)

Mowingman said:


> I work a little, two evenings/week, and a half day on Saturday, and, am grossing about $800.00/week.



Your business plan is flawed if you think you are going to consistantly make $800 "working a little two evenings/week, and a half day on Saturday"

I see you people come and go all the time. Sure there are days when you will make good money, but not $800/week working a little on less than a $20,000 investment. 

This is exactly why there are such good deals on used machines.


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## Mowingman (Jul 16, 2006)

I don't think my plan is flawed. I have a current backlog of over 125 stumps waiting on me. A friend of mine owns one of the 3 largest tree trimming/removal companies in our town. I do all his stump work. In fact, I do not advertise, or work for anyone else. My machine will pay for itself in less than 6 months, after expenses. After that, it is all profit after routine expenses. I have averaged the $800.00/week since I started this 12 weeks ago.There is no letup in sight, and my only limit now is how many hours I want to work/week. 
Do you think I am going to run out of stumps to grind? That is not going to happen.


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## jazak (Jul 17, 2006)

Well some one else could see how well you are doing and start their own company and the compitition will rise or your buddy will go get his own which like always happens and then you will have to advertise. I would get a contract from your buddy that states you get contracted out to do all his stumps from the date signed to *****. Good luck with your company though hope everything works out for you.


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## Mowingman (Jul 17, 2006)

My buddy will not get his own stump grinder.We have been working together for 15 years on landscape maint. projects. He sees the stump grinding as a sideline that he has no interest in. To him, it has always been a necessary evil, that takes time away from his trimming and removal business. He is also refering some smaller tree service companies to me. They are guys who he considers friendly competitors. Yes, others could buy machines and compete against me, but, that does not worry me. I have always been competitive in my lawn maint. business, and done well by offering reliable, high quality service. I see no reason why I can not succeed by doing the same with my grinding business.


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## Bigstumps (Jul 17, 2006)

Mowingman said:


> I have averaged the $800.00/week since I started this 12 weeks ago..



What machine are you using??? I didn't realize you were already grinding, I assumed (incorrectly) this was a startup!

It always helps to have someone feeding you stumps. I have a lot of local guys that use me. As long as you are prompt and do a good job - you'll keep the business. These guys have other headaches to worry about and other places to spend their money - chippers, trucks, cranes, saws. I also give my guys somes presents from time to time, take them out some cold drinks when I arrive - doesn't hurt to have the whole crew on your side!!!

If you're already makine good money stay with the machine you have for a while till you know exactly what you need.


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## Mowingman (Jul 17, 2006)

I just started my stump grinding business right at the end of April. So, it is a new startup, at least it was a couple of months ago. I am starting out with the Rayco 1625A with a 25hp engine. 
You are exactly right about their other "headaches to worry about". That is why my friend wanted out of the stump grinding end of things.
I plan to stick with my little Rayco for a year or two. If all goes well, I might get a machine with more horsepower. I believe my biggest market is going to be doing stumps in gated yards and tight locations, so a small, narrow machine is a must. But, as everyone knows, more horsepower is always nice.


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## Tree guycnd (Jul 18, 2006)

I have a SC 505 for sale. It's 50 hp and on tracks, best grinder I have ever seen.

I live in Vancouver CND but with the USA Dollar it my still be a good deal.

I want $25,000.CND for it and it comes with a trailer.


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## Sand Dollar (Jul 29, 2006)

*Carlton 4012*

Anyone heard if there are any problems with the deisel motor on the carlton 4012. I talked to the dealer who stated they are very bad so buy the 35 horse Briggs vanguard instead.


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## howel07264 (Jul 29, 2006)

*buying equipment free of liens*

I am looking to purchase a second stump grinder. i would really like to purchase used but i fear purchasing from an individual and later finding out there is a lien on the equipment. Seems to me your really depending on the sellers honesty. Wondering if there is a way of running the equipment through some data base to check for liens or encumbrances. Its crazy that you can buy $100 car and get a clear title or buy a $50k piece of equipment and pray its free and clear. Anybody out there have any ideas?...Thanks,Regan


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 30, 2006)

Sand Dollar said:


> Anyone heard if there are any problems with the deisel motor on the carlton 4012. I talked to the dealer who stated they are very bad so buy the 35 horse Briggs vanguard instead.



Not heard anything bad about the Lombardini over here


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## a_lopa (Jul 31, 2006)

leave the 20k in the bank!!!


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## captain2morrow (Jul 31, 2006)

a_lopa said:


> leave the 20k in the bank!!!



I'm starting to think you are right!! It seems that grinding only brings $2 per inch around here. Can you really make a living at that rate??? After fuel. repairs, insurance, etc. will there be much leftover?

Not sure grinding is a good idea after all!

Somebody convince me to give it a try!!!


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## juststumps (Jul 31, 2006)

2004 vemeer sc352 : 19,900 + 6% nj sales tax 1,194 = $ 21,094

2004 rayco rg 50 $29,000 out of state quote, no sales tax...

i went with the 352,,$ 8,000 ,,,, is a lot of stumps!!!!

2004 carmate 6x12 enclosed tandem axle trailer with ramp door: $3,000

brake controler,, tie downs,,,other stuff i got from the trailer place,,,plus sales tax: $500

tools, supplies,, rakes ,,shovels ,,chain saw ( 361 sthil) ,, fuel cans,, spare teeth: ,,,,,,,$ 2000

redmax ebz 8000 blower: $ 500

a year of 1 million dollars of liability : $2500

so, for under $30,000,,, i have a self contained,, go any where,, do any thing,, set up.....thats out of the weather,, and i can lock up...

machine is on a 5 year lease with a 100 buy out,,, every thing else is paid for...

between the lease and insurance,, its 700 per month...

i bill $ 80 per hour flat,, no clean up!! the only thing i do is blow off driveways,, side walks... just did a stump next to a tennis court,,, blew that off,, of course...

the only thing i would change with my set up is,,, 1: i need a bigger saw ( will probably get a sthil 460 next week) 2: THIS IS THE BIG ONE ,,,,,FOUR WHEEL DRIVE!!!!!

the 2006 vemeer 352 is availible with 4wd,, as an option, for a few more bucks....4wd IMO is a must have !!

other than the fwd,, i make out pretty well with my setup !!!


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## a_lopa (Aug 1, 2006)

i did a polychain today after hitting a star picket i:angry2: nbedeed in a stump,made a mess of the teeth.


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## howel07264 (Aug 1, 2006)

*your working way to CHEAP!*



juststumps said:


> 2004 vemeer sc352 : 19,900 + 6% nj sales tax 1,194 = $ 21,094
> 
> 2004 rayco rg 50 $29,000 out of state quote, no sales tax...
> 
> ...





Man your selling your work way to cheap. you should bid by the job not the hour. with the 352 you should be able to average at least $150 per run hour. remember some jobs only take 15 min. so what is that $20? also quote a min. of at least $75 to haul your equip. out for the smallest job.
Also one thing your forgetting is the dedicated truck to haul all this around. Add another $5 to40k to your equipment total. good luck.


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## juststumps (Aug 1, 2006)

howel07264 said:


> Man your selling your work way to cheap. you should bid by the job not the hour. with the 352 you should be able to average at least $150 per run hour. remember some jobs only take 15 min. so what is that $20? also quote a min. of at least $75 to haul your equip. out for the smallest job.
> Also one thing your forgetting is the dedicated truck to haul all this around. Add another $5 to40k to your equipment total. good luck.



half hour minimum,,,40 bucks,,, i do a lot of land clearing,,, no estimates,,, no running around....i sub mostly,, all local....why get greedy...grind and go...i hit home owners a little different,,,, just did a job,,,10 hrs x $80 = $800,,,
parked the truck,, unloaded the machine,,, made $800 on one job,,, life is good....


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## howel07264 (Aug 2, 2006)

juststumps said:


> half hour minimum,,,40 bucks,,, i do a lot of land clearing,,, no estimates,,, no running around....i sub mostly,, all local....why get greedy...grind and go...i hit home owners a little different,,,, just did a job,,,10 hrs x $80 = $800,,,
> parked the truck,, unloaded the machine,,, made $800 on one job,,, life is good....



Trying to gross at least $150 per run hour is not being greedy...trust me. You might have grossed $800 for 10 hours work but what matters is what you net! At the rates your charging youll be lucky to net 20% of what you gross after all expences..Iive been doing this for a long time and what matters is making a fair return on your investment,time,labor,expertise and liability. HAD YOU RATHER WORK TWICE AS MUCH FOR HALF THE PRICE OR HALF AS MUCH FOR TWICE THE PRICE? I know what i choose. Not trying to flame you just offering advice...good luck....regan


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## John464 (Aug 2, 2006)

An $800 stump jump job should not take you all day, nor 10hrs. These are 20k+ machines. High repair bills. fuel is expensive(truck and grinder) An $800 stump job should take a max of 3hrs of steady grinding.


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## buff (Aug 2, 2006)

If you ever figure out how grind enough stumps to pay for a new grinder and recover the depreciation too along with the expenses, please send me your method.


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## a_lopa (Aug 2, 2006)

got offered a 1660 the other day 500hrs at under half retail $$$.no way would the machine have paid in depresiation.the catch 22 is subbing the stumps and watch $$$ go out the door.


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## howel07264 (Aug 2, 2006)

*charge enough*



buff said:


> If you ever figure out how grind enough stumps to pay for a new grinder and recover the depreciation too along with the expenses, please send me your method.



Buff, it can be done but you have to charge enough to make it work. Also you need to spend on advertising to consumers. I also limit the work i do as a sub to tree services and loggers. They want the job done "right now" to collect on a job and dont want to pay enough to make it worthwhile. When i first started i solicited that work, now i dont have to fool with sub work.I have a high production carlton 4400-4 self propelled. All large clearing jobs i sub out for 15% to a friend with a high horsepower tow behind. i let him wear out his equipment. i do no door knocking soliciting work. i simply spend enough on advertising to take the good jobs and sub out what i dont want to do. Also you must be in a large metro area to make any money. From what i hear if you work in a rural area no one will pay enough to make a living. One things for sure your not going to get rich grinding stumps.....Regan


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## buff (Aug 2, 2006)

There are many cost to grinding stumps. Some are as follows:

1. Cost of grinder
2. Depreciation of grinder
3. Parts and service of grinder
4. A vehicle to tow the grinder
5. Phone book and other advertising for grinding
6. Cell phone for ginding
7. Fuel cost for vehicle and grinder
8. Income tax

When all cost are considered, how much do you really make? Simply saying that you "charge enough" to cover all of the cost is not enough. You have to get people to agree to pay. You also have to consider the cyclical nature of the business. If you sub out jobs, you must consider that others will sub out to you. They will also want their 15% and more too. I have had many tell me how much they charge. But none have yet to tell me how much profit per year they make by stump grinding. If anyone tells me there is a living in this or even good part time money I say that they are not counting all of their cost.


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## stumpy66 (Aug 3, 2006)

Its a tricky one, i think that you price at what you need and what the customer will tolerate...i am a new company, so i will charge so that i get the job and people will pass the word on. If i was out all day everyday and turning work down then my rate will go up....that is not to say that i will price it cheap because i know its worth and mine.

Pricing is a difficult one and one where folk in an area should ideally talk to each other (if they can manage that) and make sure that they are all in the same ball park area for pricing.....its when folk slash prices to get work that it can cock the job up.....but again if people trust you and know you are good at the job and leave the site looking good then they will use you from choice....


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## ROLLACOSTA (Aug 3, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> Its a tricky one, i think that you price at what you need and what the customer will tolerate...i am a new company, so i will charge so that i get the job and people will pass the word on. If i was out all day everyday and turning work down then my rate will go up....that is not to say that i will price it cheap because i know its worth and mine.
> 
> Pricing is a difficult one and one where folk in an area should ideally talk to each other (if they can manage that) and make sure that they are all in the same ball park area for pricing.....its when folk slash prices to get work that it can cock the job up.....but again if people trust you and know you are good at the job and leave the site looking good then they will use you from choice....




I can see stump grinding ,going down to less than £200+vat per day,there are just to many machines out there and not enough stumps,I remember the day you could get £500 per day for a 252..


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## a_lopa (Aug 3, 2006)

ROLLACOSTA said:


> I can see stump grinding ,going down to less than £200+vat per day,there are just to many machines out there and not enough stumps,I remember the day you could get £500 per day for a 252..



me too rolla


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## howel07264 (Aug 3, 2006)

*your right on!*



TreeCo said:


> Being a 'new company', how do you know what your real cost are going to be? What is your equipment cost per job?
> 
> One problem this industry faces is new companies that charge low prices to get the job figuring they will build up clientele even though profit is low.
> 
> ...



Dan, your right on with your comments. I see the same thing all the time.
everyone starts with great expectations then buss. gets slow, they get desperate and start to bid their work cheap to get the job. then after a while they find they cant make it and out they go. Probably the average grinder runs maybe 300hrs. a year. weve seen people quoting "flat" $80 per hour. What is that 24k a year gross. Gee you could do better working at walmart! Some people need to do the math before quiting their day job. Ive got a friend i sub out large clearing jobs to, been grinding for 10 years told me he has never grossed more than 30k in a year. Sad..very sad. If theres not any money in a job my equipment doesn't leave the yard....Regan


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## howel07264 (Aug 3, 2006)

*Dont do sub jobs!*



buff said:


> There are many cost to grinding stumps. Some are as follows:
> 
> 1. Cost of grinder
> 2. Depreciation of grinder
> ...




Buff, Just telling you what works for me. you said "if you sub out jobs others will sub out to you" Thats not a concern to me with the price i charge for my work.i would price their job at the same rate i would charge any other customer. by the way i do count All my costs. Ive said it before your not going to get rich grinding stumps.....Regan


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## buff (Aug 3, 2006)

TreeCo......If you are new you should do your research before plunking down hard earned money. You know what you will pay for a grinder, you paid for a truck, you have advertising, a cell phone, you know what depreciation on a grinder and a truck will be, there will be fuel and there will be unexpected cost like the exact cost of maintaining your grinder. But this can be estimated too. If you have no idea of what your cost and revenue will be, it is not a good idea to put money in a venture.


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## buff (Aug 3, 2006)

Those things are unpredictable. That is why one can not say " I wil just charge enough to cover everything."


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## howel07264 (Aug 3, 2006)

buff said:


> Those things are unpredictable. That is why one can not say " I wil just charge enough to cover everything."


 Buff, your right there are a lot expences that are unpredictable and beyond your control. One thing you HAVE control of is how much you charge for your work. Sounds like you might want to put your money in a CD.gauranteed,gov. insured,no sweat! Seriously i would advise anyone considering stump grinding not to do it. too many people out there already desperately underbidding jobs trying to make the payments on the equipment. good luck! ....Regan


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## buff (Aug 3, 2006)

It is true that we have control over what we charge. What we do not have control over is the number of people who are willing to pay it.


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## howel07264 (Aug 3, 2006)

*Salemanship!*



buff said:


> It is true that we have control over what we charge. What we do not have control over is the number of people who are willing to pay it.



BUFF, Thats where salesmanship comes in. Im not talking about pricing a job trying to rip off a customer. just a fair price for the job.As for as the number willing to pay my price, it runs about 70% of all prospect calls. Being realistic the customer could rent a small grinder for $190 a day and do it themself. Some do.
Most of the time on residential jobs i can come out and do it for them cheaper than they can rent. If i find they are price shopping and getting multiple bids, i dont pursue the job. Could i get 100% of the jobs ?...impossible. could i get 85-90% of the jobs?...possibly,but i would have to cut my prices in half. Thats not a bussiness plan that proves successful....good luck!...Regan


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## Bigstumps (Aug 3, 2006)

buff said:


> There are many cost to grinding stumps. Some are as follows:
> 
> 1. Cost of grinder
> 2. Depreciation of grinder
> 8. Income tax




Depreciation of an asset is the cost associated with owning it!! Income Tax - you'll pay this on any net revenue - that's why accountants look at income before tax - and we all know the beauty of running a business that sees a little cash.

No where can you invest $20,000 and get the kind of return you will with grinding. I'm not saying you'll get rich, but it is the perfect part time or retirement job. It gives you a good return per hour and allows you great flexibility.

If everything were approached with such scepticism as this has been on this board nothing would ever get accomplished. It really surprises me as most tree guys are somewhat entrepreneurs.


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## howel07264 (Aug 3, 2006)

Bigstumps said:


> Depreciation of an asset is the cost associated with owning it!! Income Tax - you'll pay this on any net revenue - that's why accountants look at income before tax - and we all know the beauty of running a business that sees a little cash.
> 
> No where can you invest $20,000 and get the kind of return you will with grinding. I'm not saying you'll get rich, but it is the perfect part time or retirement job. It gives you a good return per hour and allows you great flexibility.
> 
> If everything were approached with such scepticism as this has been on this board nothing would ever get accomplished. It really surprises me as most tree guys are somewhat entrepreneurs.




BUFF,BIG STUMPS, I still say dont do it! stick with the CD. ...much safer.
By the way depeciation is a plus on your taxes. unless you expence it. section 179 of the tax code allows you to expence full purchase of equipment in the first year.{offsets your taxable income}....Still say Dont DO IT!
Many more failures in this buss. than success stories.....Regan


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## buff (Aug 3, 2006)

I guess salesmanship is good. But not good enough when the phone stops ringing because you are the highest guy in town. The cost associated with owning something is called expenses. Depreciation is the decreasing value of an asset. Where else can you get the quality return from stump grinding? I have $20,000 cash and I can tell you that I am not buying another stump grinder with it. Again, anyone who tells you that there is a living or even a good part time income in stump grinding is not counting all of his cost. Let us go over them again. 

1. $20,000 stump grinder
2. $15,000 for old used truck
3. maintenance cost for truck and grinder
4. expenses 
5. yellow pages
6. cell phone
7. fuel for truck and grinder
8. depreciation on grinder and truck
9. other


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## howel07264 (Aug 4, 2006)

*o-tay*



buff said:


> I guess salesmanship is good. But not good enough when the phone stops ringing because you are the highest guy in town. The cost associated with owning something is called expenses. Depreciation is the decreasing value of an asset. Where else can you get the quality return from stump grinding? I have $20,000 cash and I can tell you that I am not buying another stump grinder with it. Again, anyone who tells you that there is a living or even a good part time income in stump grinding is not counting all of his cost. Let us go over them again.
> 
> 1. $20,000 stump grinder
> 2. $15,000 for old used truck
> ...


 BUff, your preaching to the choir. AMEN brother!!


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## Bigstumps (Aug 4, 2006)

buff said:


> I guess salesmanship is good. But not good enough when the phone stops ringing because you are the highest guy in town. The cost associated with owning something is called expenses. Depreciation is the decreasing value of an asset. Where else can you get the quality return from stump grinding? I have $20,000 cash and I can tell you that I am not buying another stump grinder with it. Again, anyone who tells you that there is a living or even a good part time income in stump grinding is not counting all of his cost. Let us go over them again.
> 
> 1. $20,000 stump grinder
> 2. $15,000 for old used truck
> ...



Buff,

You can't figure both the cost of the truck and the depreciation!! The Depreciation is the cost!! This is the same for all assets on your books. If you take the accelerated depreciation allowed and write it off in the 1st year, as I did last year, this year you have zero value in the machine, hence no costs as these were already accounted for last year. Of course you still have maintenance and fuel.

One Guy, One Truck, Two Grinders, No Yellow Page Ad, Cell Phone - $135,000 last year before expenses. And of course I put all fuel and tons of other maintenance items against it. Expensed my new machine with accelerated depreciation and showed the IRS as little as possible.

This year I will buy a new truck just for the write off. My truck, tools, grinders have all been depreciated to zero!!!

It is a lot easier to sit at your computer and say "that will never make money" than actually getting out doing it.

Lets face it, grinding stumps, or cutting down trees is not rocket science. All it takes is doing it a little better and smarter than your competition. Everything is competitive these days, but to not try because there are too many people already in it is a cop out. If there are that many people in it, it just means there are that many I can easily take business from.


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## howel07264 (Aug 4, 2006)

*rock and roll*



Bigstumps said:


> Buff,
> 
> You can't figure both the cost of the truck and the depreciation!! The Depreciation is the cost!! This is the same for all assets on your books. If you take the accelerated depreciation allowed and write it off in the 1st year, as I did last year, this year you have zero value in the machine, hence no costs as these were already accounted for last year. Of course you still have maintenance and fuel.
> 
> ...



Bigstumps, great gross for a stump grinding buss. Your gross is probably in the top 1% of all stump buss. just a guess. keep it going....Regan


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## buff (Aug 4, 2006)

I have had a lot of guys tell me what they gross and what they charge and about the magic of depreciation. But I have yet to have anyone tell me their profit.


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## howel07264 (Aug 4, 2006)

*Net....50 bucks a year*



buff said:


> I have had a lot of guys tell me what they gross and what they charge and about the magic of depreciation. But I have yet to have anyone tell me their profit.



Buff, I gross about 500k a year. after ALL expences i net about $50 per year. Net just enough to keep me in levi garrett chew. tobacco. I really consider what i do a public service. Dont look to make anything, just want to make a lot of friends....What i really want is just to be LOVED!.....Regan

As Rodney King once said "CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG"


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## buff (Aug 4, 2006)

How did you get from $135,000 gross grinding stumps to $500,000 gross with only a ten percent return paid with a lot of love. You have been sniffing too much diesel fume.


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## howel07264 (Aug 4, 2006)

*What???*



buff said:


> How did you get from $135,000 gross grinding stumps to $500,000 gross with only a ten percent return paid with a lot of love. You have been sniffing too much diesel fume.



IM CONFUSED. I THINK YOUR COMBINING MINE AND BIGSTUMPS POSTS TOGETHER. DONT UNDERSTAND "ONLY A TEN PERCENT RETURN WITH LOTS OF LOVE". MY NET PROFIT OF $50 ANNUALLY IS ACTUALLY .001 PERCENT OF 500K GROSS. NOT BAD HUH? . YOUR RIGHT ABOUT SNIFFING TO MANY FUMES,BUT THEY WERE GASOLINE FUMES. I DID ALL THAT VOLUME WITH MY ALPINE MAGNUM.....AMAZING MACHINE!...HAVE A LITTLE FUN BRO!..REGAN

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS,FORGOT IT WAS ON.


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## stumpy66 (Aug 4, 2006)

its all very well talking about how much is charged and how much you make...and whether you do this or that. A business is a risk which ever way you look at it, owning a bar happens more than starting a stump business, that is risky..but some make money, some go bust...owning a stump business is the same. there aint no golden pot waiting for everyone at the end of a rainbow. But if you see an chance take it. As for all the pessimism, some talk of 200 pound a day for stump removal....it will only happen for a while if folk let it, then there will be no grinders about cos there are all bust or running 2nd hand slow unreliable equip. the circle continues. I charge what i think is a fair amount for the job, i think long term and care for my customers. whether i will be here in 2, 3 or 10 years time will be down to market forces and how i have adapted to them. Life is not all about the money, if you can earn more at walmart, go work for them. i like stumping....i will take the risk and see what adventures lie in store for me...... fortune favours the brave.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Aug 6, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> its all very well talking about how much is charged and how much you make...and whether you do this or that. A business is a risk which ever way you look at it, owning a bar happens more than starting a stump business, that is risky..but some make money, some go bust...owning a stump business is the same. there aint no golden pot waiting for everyone at the end of a rainbow. But if you see an chance take it. As for all the pessimism, some talk of 200 pound a day for stump removal....it will only happen for a while if folk let it, then there will be no grinders about cos there are all bust or running 2nd hand slow unreliable equip. the circle continues. I charge what i think is a fair amount for the job, i think long term and care for my customers. whether i will be here in 2, 3 or 10 years time will be down to market forces and how i have adapted to them. Life is not all about the money, if you can earn more at walmart, go work for them. i like stumping....i will take the risk and see what adventures lie in store for me...... fortune favours the brave.



I can hire a mini digger [brand new] for £50 per day or a man/driver with a new 50k JCB backhoe for £180 per day,all i'm saying is the market determines your pricing,we are heading the way of the mini digger or JCB there just aren't enough stumps to go around ,my machine has only got 65 hours on the clock,I hope fortune favours me this week..


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## howel07264 (Aug 6, 2006)

*hours woked*



ROLLACOSTA said:


> I can hire a mini digger [brand new] for £50 per day or a man/driver with a new 50k JCB backhoe for £180 per day,all i'm saying is the market determines your pricing,we are heading the way of the mini digger or JCB there just aren't enough stumps to go around ,my machine has only got 65 hours on the clock,I hope fortune favours me this week..



Rolla i bought a new truck 2 years ago with an hour meter.only use it to haul my grinder around. i find i have put more time on the truck driving to and from the job than hours on the grinder. i wish it was the other way around. Since fuel costs exploded after last years hurricaines the jobs have really dried up. has your 352 had any problems?...Regan


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## ROLLACOSTA (Aug 6, 2006)

howel07264 said:


> Rolla i bought a new truck 2 years ago with an hour meter.only use it to haul my grinder around. i find i have put more time on the truck driving to and from the job than hours on the grinder. i wish it was the other way around. Since fuel costs exploded after last years hurricaines the jobs have really dried up. has your 352 had any problems?...Regan



Hi no problems other than one leaking steering ram,and I had a mod done to stop the muffler/exhaust from coming loose,and a relay worked loose and the machine wouldn't start..Work over here has seriously dried up ,to many grinders not enought stumps me thinks..

I must admit you can grind a lot of stumps in an hour..


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## Bigstumps (Aug 10, 2006)

Buy this and go make money! Looks like a good deal if it doesn't go crazy at the end.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-Carlton-SP...9QQihZ020QQcategoryZ63924QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## buff (Aug 10, 2006)

If the owner of the grinder is making good money, why is he selling his machine?


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## howel07264 (Aug 10, 2006)

*Desperation*



buff said:


> If the owner of the grinder is making good money, why is he selling his machine?



For a bigger ,badder machine. more hp.=more money. In reallity probably out of desperation. only 110 hours in 1 to 2 years cant produce much revenue.
Regan


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## Bigstumps (Aug 10, 2006)

It would be a cheap way to test the water. Doesn't work out sell it and not lose much. Hell I'll buy it for $5K if you decide you don't like it after 40 hours!:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## juststumps (Aug 17, 2006)

John464 said:


> the Vermeer 352 is the best and I believe the most powerful portable in it's price range. atleast it was when I bought them a few years back. I agree with you on the 252's (i had one for about a year)....way too slow
> 
> Rolla,
> there is a need to be in a rush. instead of the crew of 4 guys watching you grind the stumps. by the time they are done raking up.... the stump is out. then its time for them to fill in the hole(s).
> ...


i grind alone,, and why do you need 4 guys to fill in the holes?? why are 4 guys even there??? they should be out making more tooth picks!!!


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## John464 (Aug 17, 2006)

juststumps said:


> i grind alone,, and why do you need 4 guys to fill in the holes?? why are 4 guys even there??? they should be out making more tooth picks!!!



after the trees are down you have branches to chip, stumps to grind, a whole yard to rake up. The cleanup doesnt take that long and the stumps should be finished nearly the same time everything else is if you have a fast efficient machine. That way the crew can move as one force to the next job. Having the grinder while the job is still in progress can also speed production allowing you to back trucks further to the wood etc. Why go back to remove the stumps or have one guy stick around longer while the rest of the guys go to lunch? then again if you dont have a crew or only are in the stump grinding business it wouldnt make sense to ya.


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## juststumps (Aug 17, 2006)

buff said:


> If you ever figure out how grind enough stumps to pay for a new grinder and recover the depreciation too along with the expenses, please send me your method.


buff, my expenses equal $ 700 per month.. at $80 per hour, it's less than 10 hours a month...


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## juststumps (Aug 17, 2006)

buff said:


> There are many cost to grinding stumps. Some are as follows:
> 
> 1. Cost of grinder
> 2. Depreciation of grinder
> ...


i lease my machine,,, have a 5x8 job,,, don't advertise,, have a truck,,, work local,, its the biggest tax write off in the world


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## juststumps (Aug 17, 2006)

buff said:


> If you ever figure out how grind enough stumps to pay for a new grinder and recover the depreciation too along with the expenses, please send me your method.


you don't recover deprecation,, you write it off...


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## juststumps (Aug 17, 2006)

John464 said:


> after the trees are down you have branches to chip, stumps to grind, a whole yard to rake up. The cleanup doesnt take that long and the stumps should be finished nearly the same time everything else is if you have a fast efficient machine. That way the crew can move as one force to the next job. Having the grinder while the job is still in progress can also speed production allowing you to back trucks further to the wood etc. Why go back to remove the stumps or have one guy stick around longer while the rest of the guys go to lunch? then again if you dont have a crew or only are in the stump grinding business it wouldnt make sense to ya.


let me get this straight,,, becuase all jobs are different... you drop a tree,, and while the ground guys are chipping brush, bucking the stick up, then raking the mess up,, you send a stump grinder into the work zone???? your kidding, right???


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## John464 (Aug 17, 2006)

juststumps said:


> let me get this straight,,, becuase all jobs are different... you drop a tree,, and while the ground guys are chipping brush, bucking the stick up, then raking the mess up,, you send a stump grinder into the work zone???? your kidding, right???



no not kidding at all. there is plenty of stuff for them to do after the tree is down. they just have to keep a safe distance away from the grinder. my point is the grinder should finish just before the crew of guys run out of things to do and decide all there is to do is stand around. if you know how long the stumps will take you wont have guys watching you grind. slower grinders, ala 252, cant keep up to a full crew.


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## juststumps (Aug 18, 2006)

John464 said:


> no not kidding at all. there is plenty of stuff for them to do after the tree is down. they just have to keep a safe distance away from the grinder. my point is the grinder should finish just before the crew of guys run out of things to do and decide all there is to do is stand around. if you know how long the stumps will take you wont have guys watching you grind. slower grinders, ala 252, cant keep up to a full crew.


whats your idea of a safe distance??? i can't imagime running a grinder while there are groundies, working around the machine!!!! when i do my own gig, it's usaully after the fact.. tree's gone... if i'm in on a side job take down,, i don't grind till the site is clear..at my day job, if we have to grind,, we send a man out with the grinder, and he helps till we leave.. then he grinds... then he goes to the next job,,, etc..


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## swaltman (Aug 20, 2006)

*Raygo RG 50 Stumper*

The rayco rg50 66 hp diesel is a great machine. If you are interested in one. I have one with about 200 hrs. Pics available. Price is 25K. 2004 model.
shoot me an email at [email protected]


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