# Novice Climbers Thread



## PTS (Nov 27, 2005)

Once again we read on here another person wishing to start climbing and yet they don't know where to start, what equipment to get or who to contact with questions. I bring this up because I was there too. Seems like a lot of repeat threads, which is only caused because they are generally new to the site and haven't been reading it for years. I think it would be nice to have a thread especially designed for answering questions about climbing for the beginner. Maybe even a forum. A place for one to go to ask the simple questions and feel comfortable doing so. I know we like to give a guy a hard time once and a while but I would like to see a place on here where the new climbers don't have to worry about catching flack for some of the seemingly simple questions. A place to post pictures of gear and setups guys are using. A place to coach those willing to learn. 

I am not putting myself in the category to being a coach, I'm still learning myself, but there are a lot of guys on here with the ability to spread their knowledge and expand the professionalism in tree care.

Just a thought


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## DDM (Nov 27, 2005)

Okay I'll stick this thread and we will see how it goes. Lets change the name to Novice Climbers thread.


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## PTS (Nov 27, 2005)

I have the hardest time with a removal of a Vase shaped tree that is only 35-40 feet tall. The problem I have is that the limbs are small in diameter and at a terrible angle to try to climb. Spurring doesn't seem to work because of the diameter, walking the limb is almost impossible because of the angle and shimmying the limb is a major workout and very hard to keep your balance. If you do shimmy it, and then rope off of the limb you are on because it is the only option, you better hold on when you make your cut. The oak I did this past week, made me feel like a bull rider, but there was no other option. The frustrating thing is you got to go up and top the limb off or it will hit something below if cut toward the bottom. The other problem I have is tieing in at the top with no large branches or Y's to hook into due to the tree size. 

I enjoyed climbing down south with nice tall trees but around here 40-60 ft is average. Put that over a house and it doesn't give you much room for the tip to swing.


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## Redbull (Nov 27, 2005)

I know what you mean. We have a lot of trees like that here too. As far as cutting limbs like that goes, I'll tip-tie the limb with a webbing sling and pull it back toward the trunk as I cut it low. I'm not sure how big of a limb you're talking though. This only works on smaller stuff that you can handle by hand. For larger stuff you could use the method illustrated in the pic. It's not to scale but you get the idea.


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## PTS (Nov 27, 2005)

I do that a lot but when the top tie in is as small as the limb you are working on, it doesn't make you feel very good about tieing in.

Do you throw bag the tip tie?


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## Redbull (Nov 27, 2005)

I'll either use a monkey fist or a pruner. The pruner works well for retreiving the monkey fist too. I know what you mean about TIPs. I hate not having a high TIP, I get real uncomfortable when I have to work above or level with my TIP. Another thing I will do if the crotches are narrow or small, is girth hitch or wrap a friction saver around the limb I want to tie in to instead of using the crotch. You will have to tie in a little lower than normal, but it would be more secure.


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## boo (Nov 27, 2005)

In the rare cases that the tie in point IS the limb you have to remove, carry some extra slings and biners with you to tie in further as you go, so that if you fall, you just tied in a few ft. ago. (if the limb holds you)
No need to swing all the way back to the trunk.


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## Redbull (Nov 27, 2005)

Basicly the same concept boo. I love my webbing loops and biners!


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## Fireaxman (Nov 27, 2005)

Redbull said:


> I'll tip-tie the limb with a webbing sling and pull it back toward the trunk as I cut it low. I'm not sure how big of a limb you're talking though. This only works on smaller stuff that you can handle by hand. For larger stuff you could use the method illustrated in the pic. It's not to scale but you get the idea.



Somebody gave me some good advice to be sure and tag line the butt of a large limb as well as the top, to keep it from swinging in to me when it comes loose.


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## Redbull (Nov 27, 2005)

That's a good tip to keep in mind. Big swingin log+me= Crappy day!


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## rahtreelimbs (Nov 27, 2005)

boo said:


> In the rare cases that the tie in point IS the limb you have to remove, carry some extra slings and biners with you to tie in further as you go, so that if you fall, you just tied in a few ft. ago. (if the limb holds you)
> No need to swing all the way back to the trunk.



Almost sounds like a multiple re-direct!!!


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## DDM (Nov 27, 2005)

*New To Tree Climbing?*

Let's Dedicate this thread to the new Tree Guy.

IF you are a novice tree climber and need some help Post your questions here.

No one will make fun of you or I will DELETE Their post.

Lets try to keep this thread on topic so i dont have to edit and let a new climber ask the questions.

Here is another usefull thread
http://arborist.************/showthread.php?t=26924


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## PTS (Nov 27, 2005)

boo said:


> In the rare cases that the tie in point IS the limb you have to remove, carry some extra slings and biners with you to tie in further as you go, so that if you fall, you just tied in a few ft. ago. (if the limb holds you)
> No need to swing all the way back to the trunk.




I think that is half my problem, I tie in too much. I will tie in to the limb I'm on with a flip line and then tie in ahead of me as far as I can reach, undo the first work my way to the second, when I get there I tie in as far out as I can reach and repeat the process.


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## Diesel JD (Nov 28, 2005)

Well you may be a bit slow but at least you come home alive and in one piece. I like the idea of a novice climber thread.....heck I'll contribute...first question...what do you all who are more experienced climbers think us newbies need to do not to get ourselves killed or maimed out there trying to prove ourselves? Second...what do you all think is a good basic climbing equipment set for the beginner? Thanks,
J.D.


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## PTS (Nov 28, 2005)

To go along with your equipment question if there is anyone that has pictures of their setups could you post them. I was lucky to have a coach for a few months but some people may not have been so lucky and a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## NickfromWI (Nov 28, 2005)

I think the best thing newbies can do when seeking our guidance is to clearly define what it is they are doing now, so that we know exactly where best to make improvements. Sometimes new people sign up and their first post is along the lines of, "Hi guys, I've been reading these posts for like a year now and have never posted. Just thought I would officially sign up today. What can I do to be better?"

That gives us nothing to go on. Now if someone comes on and says, "I have been climbing for 7 years, I learned everything all from one guy, who is the BEST in the industry, and I am using a one of those adjustable flip lines where it's doubled back on itself and has a prussick knot on it, but sometimes the prusick knot is at the back of the tree and I can't adjust it. Is there a way to fix that? Oh, and my topline hitch is slipping. Any ideas?"

We can work with that!

There are also great videos available online, for free, that will help a newbie a LOT!

love
nick


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## Bermie (Nov 28, 2005)

I've been climbing for about two years, just fininshed another course 'cause I realized my initial training wasn't enough to deal with the increasing complexity of the jobs I was getting.
Advice - know your limits, ask for help (just what you're doing now) also, just before every cut ask yourself, what will happen if this goes wrong? It may just be enough for you to slightly reposition, or make that last check of tie in point or what will the tree or branch do when you cut it. I've had enough times where that extra 15 second was enough to ensure all went well instead of a nasty shock or jolt or swing. Be safe.


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## sjwrappel (Nov 28, 2005)

About 3 years ago I got really sick of scrounging free wood by the roadways, 'wood-fairy' style. So I hung up a flyer in the local supermarket for "Tree Service". I've been reading everything I can about knots and climbing and technique since. I borrowed some spikes and a harness and tore up some of the trees in my backyard, finally bought my own ropes and stuff and have been learning on every job since. I tell homeowners flat out, up front that I have no insurance and they will have to make the call. I tell them about how I am going to do the job, tell them what I think the risks are and let them make the call. Most don't care, they say their homeowners insurance will cover them. I turn down about 1 job in 10 because of the risk. Power lines, buildings, etc... I guess I'm the guy you big guys hate - the pick-up and chainsaw no overhead guy stealing all the cake removal jobs. I probably did 25 jobs in the last 6 months, strictly partime, weekends, etc. I charge $40/hr for just me and $20/hr if I have to bring a groundie(plus some minimum and some travel time, depending on the job)

Yesterday(Sunday) Pruning a large Silver maple for roof clearance:

I walked way out on a limb with a high tie-in point above me back at the main trunk. I would normally tie off to another branch to hold my position out from right below the tie in point like that, but there wasn't anything good to use. I was cutting a branch, it came free, I lost my balance because of the sudden extra weight of the freshly cut branch and the branch I was "standing" on springing up. I swung back into the trunk, crashing through some smaller branches on the way. I guess it's no big deal, it happens, that's why the ropes are there. I really seem to struggle with the 'limb walking'. Fun tree though, good tie in points, lots of really complicated maneuvering. The neighborhood wasn't any fun, though - gangs, hookers, gunshots, the whole deal. When the guy was paying me and we're shootin' the chit a little, I could hear him idly clicking his safety on and off in his pocket. I guess that's why I really like working in the better neighborhoods!

Hey, you asked.


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## Redbull (Nov 28, 2005)

Swings like that CAN be fatal, and they CAN cause serious injury. If you're at risk of swinging a great distance, use a second tie-in.


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## Sizzle-Chest (Nov 28, 2005)

Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster. I have been wanting to get more into climbing but I need some new gear. What do you all recommend? Specifically, whats best?

That one's for you Nick!


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Nov 29, 2005)

I've been climbing around 6-8 months now. Being in the UK we all have to compleat a basic climbing and rescue course before we can climb commerically. The place i do my practice "recreatonal" climbing only lets me do it because i have the qualification and provided them with a risk assessment.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9828/dscf01705uj.jpg

Thats my gear i have the wide back version of Willans T22
All the Karabiners are 30Kn triple locking
Rope is Yale XTC 150' with a soft eye
Just got a basic lanyard at the moment but i'm thinking of using a 3m bit of XTC Fire with a pully and VT into a triple locking karabiner with a splice eye at the other end which would again be on a 3 way karabiner.

Its all out the bag for post use inspection from that day, chainsaw wasn't used but was still on the tear away strap. The rope normally sits coiled in a rope bag.

A useful website might be www.nptc.org.uk and click on assessment schedules and find tree climbing and areial rescue. Thats the basic minimum requirment to climb in the UK. Nearlly all the ones in Arbocultural operations i think its called are compusarly to do that task for insurance purposes.


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## Redbull (Nov 29, 2005)

I think that is cool that you are required to pass a battery of tests before you can climb. It would be interesting to see how many existing tree guys would pass that test here in the U.S. It would probably help the insurance rates here. Nice gear Brushcutter.


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Nov 29, 2005)

Redbull said:


> I think that is cool that you are required to pass a battery of tests before you can climb. It would be interesting to see how many existing tree guys would pass that test here in the U.S. It would probably help the insurance rates here. Nice gear Brushcutter.



Its not just climbing its anything to do with chainsaws we need to pass a test to use a chainsaw there are some 5 tests that i can think of to do with tree felling. I'd expect that at lot of US climber would get through the climbing part quite easily. I've never seen rope rescue dicussed on the boards so maybe its an area you don't do as much. We have to be trained in all 4 methods (Using your system and casulties, yours only, Belay and spike rescue using Belay) and you have to pass using yours and casulitys rescue system and you get to choose one more. I did rescue 2.


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## Redbull (Nov 29, 2005)

I think that's a good idea. How many here have been formally trained in rescue? I'll admit that I've only been very informally trained at Asplundh. I was shown on the ground what to do, but never got to actually try a rescue. What I do know is something that stuck with me though. Chainsaw training is very important also.


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## pantheraba (Nov 29, 2005)

PTS said:


> I think that is half my problem, I tie in too much. I will tie in to the limb I'm on with a flip line and then tie in ahead of me as far as I can reach, undo the first work my way to the second, when I get there I tie in as far out as I can reach and repeat the process.



I don't see that as a problem...not tying in ENOUGH, now that is a problem. I keep a 25 foot climbing line with me to help set up extra balance point/safety and sometimes have a 2nd full climbing line with me, too. 

Not ALL of these ropes were safety...but there are times when I have 3 safeties on (2 ropes and a lanyard).


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## pantheraba (Nov 29, 2005)

Bermie said:


> Advice - know your limits, ask for help (just what you're doing now) also, just before every cut ask yourself, what will happen if this goes wrong? It may just be enough for you to slightly reposition, or make that last check of tie in point or what will the tree or branch do when you cut it. I've had enough times where that extra 15 second was enough to ensure all went well instead of a nasty shock or jolt or swing. Be safe.



This is one of the most important posts I have read on any of these sites...AS, TB, TH.

Taking that extra few seconds to review it all and rethink it one more time is critical. I have discovered several errors in my setup or rigging before that could have been fatal...that extra look/think is tremendously important.


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## boo (Nov 29, 2005)

pantheraba said:


> This is one of the most important posts I have read on any of these sites...AS, TB, TH.
> 
> Taking that extra few seconds to review it all and rethink it one more time is critical. I have discovered several errors in my setup or rigging before that could have been fatal...that extra look/think is tremendously important.



Agreed.
After a double or triple check of the physics, I've found myself thanking God that I didn't make that cut yet.
Most times I have a good ground guy give a good view of things after he steps back and looks at the "big picture" just to make sure I see what I think I see.


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## pantheraba (Nov 29, 2005)

boo said:


> Agreed.
> After a double or triple check of the physics, I've found myself thanking God that I didn't make that cut yet.
> Most times I have a good ground guy give a good view of things after he steps back and looks at the "big picture" just to make sure I see what I think I see.



I totally agree with that...all of it. I also invite input from others...they might see something I don't...and I tell them not to be shy about suggesting something. It may be something I did not foresee.


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## Redbull (Nov 29, 2005)

Having a knowledgable groundman (preferably one that is a climber too) is probably one of the best tools you can have, IMO.


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Nov 30, 2005)

Redbull said:


> I think that's a good idea. How many here have been formally trained in rescue? I'll admit that I've only been very informally trained at Asplundh. I was shown on the ground what to do, but never got to actually try a rescue. What I do know is something that stuck with me though. Chainsaw training is very important also.



Most companies here are expected to practice rescue at least once a month.


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## Redbull (Nov 30, 2005)

Nothin wrong with that!


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## bottlefed89 (Nov 30, 2005)

I agree with you redbull, having another climber as a groundie would be awesome, I find that my skills improve most when I am pushed by someone else. It's kind of like running, I ran cross country in high school. When I was younger and there were several runners faster than me, I had a clear goal. When I was the fastest at the school and had no one along to push me, I worked or ran at the pace that worked best at the time. Working with another climber is awesome in that you have two sets of trained eyes, but I really like the ability to learn from someone else. Also, I wouldn't necessarily compete with another climber, but like running, it would defenitely help keep me at the top of my game.. if that makes any sense.


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## chicken89 (Nov 30, 2005)

being pushed is good, however, i think that we as climbers should be good at one type of felling before working on another. one problem that i had was that i was climbing 1x every other week. one time it would be light pruning, next time removal near building, next time removal into open space. i feel that training should happen in clumps: learn how to climb by pruning- get some under the belt-> learn to do removals into open space -> climb for removals with objects around (fences, brick walkways)-> removals near buildings. the BIGGEST problem that i had was that i felt that i was not trained enough to move to the next step, but was pressured into it becuase i knew that i would not climb for another week. i remember climbing a catalpa near a building. i removed everything away from a house, then i had no clue how to do the rest. the only rigging i had ever done was to slowly lower branches, never to swing branches away from buildings. i had to climb down and the owner had to finish it the next day


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## boo (Nov 30, 2005)

bottlefed89 said:


> I agree with you redbull, having another climber as a groundie would be awesome,....


I've always said another climber is the best groundman, but I also like being in a large tree training noobs.
Makes them more comfortable being up there with someone to explain things 1st hand and not having to yell so everyone can hear you give direction.
Cuts down on relocating tie in points too.


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## hi-jacker (Dec 15, 2005)

I did tree work with my dad about 40+ years ago and I wish we had the equipment I'm seeing today. A climber used one climbing rope--1/2" manila--with a snap tied about 16" from the saddle-connection end...the 16" was to tie the old climber's knot. Don't get me wrong--I'm not being critical; I think the newer equipment is great. Even our saddles were laced with 1/2" manila.

I was around the business from age 13 to 19 and my dad was the greatest climber I ever saw. He never used spurs unless the tree was coming down; I've seen some climbers today who always use them.

I know my post adds nothing to this site, but I enjoy reading those put here by you youngsters who are still in the business. Thanks.

Jack


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## pantheraba (Dec 15, 2005)

hi-jacker said:


> I did tree work with my dad about 40+ years ago and I wish we had the equipment I'm seeing today. A climber used one climbing rope--1/2" manila--with a snap tied about 16" from the saddle-connection end...the 16" was to tie the old climber's knot. .........
> 
> I know my post adds nothing to this site, but I enjoy reading those put here by you youngsters who are still in the business. Thanks.
> 
> Jack



I think you just did a good job of adding there. Your post helps remind some of us what it was like then...I learned on manila in the early 70's, too. Used a tautline hitch ("tree knot" I called it) off the double butterfly that I snapped into the saddle.

Your post helps us realize how far things have come. I had some rockclimbing experience before tree climbing. When I brought my Eiger oval plain biners to work to use, to try to adapt them to what we were doing, it was a first for the other climber, my teacher. 

And your post might help the younger guys think about how much was done then with so little. Pass along what you remember about how y'all did it...may help jog the memory of others.


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