# How would you deal with this employee???



## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

We hold a year round municipal line clearance contract for a town in the Worcester area. Yesterday I received a call from the manager of the light dept. Where he requested some immediate service to clear a double Hendrix along a major commuter rt. to Boston, Ma. The Job contained about 12 sections that needed be completely ground cut, and all the major over hang was to be completely removed. We had a sign board, two police details, and two 3-man crews( one headed by my-self) with 65' aerial lifts to complete the job. The work conditions where very poor today, it rained heavy all day, and the wires are located up on a very steep hill, that needed to be completely cleared. In many areas the wires were burning( a recent outage prompted the urgency to do the Job Today) and the manager wanted the job completed in one day if possible. Due to the work conditions my crew was not very happy to say the least. Still we sucked it up and were on our way to completing the job by days end. The groundies were taking some very rough falls due to the steep incline and haggling with some tough vines and thorns. I noticed from above in the bucket that one of my employees working in the other crew was screaming and swearing. He was not calming down at all, and throwing a complete temper tantrum. When i came down from the bucket I asked him what his problem was, and he continued to scream. I told him to calm down and he said to shut the f$%#k up. I replied " listen, we are all out here dealing with the same thing, don't be the only baby on this crew." His attitude really pissed me off but getting the job done was my main objective. He seemed to calm down and we finished the area by 2:00 this after noon. This groundman is a good kid, only 20 years old, but his attitude today really bothered me. I haven't spoke with him yet, and am wondering how i should deal with this. I have never had an employee scream at me before, i am a pretty chill Boss, But i cant let something like this happen again. Should i let it go, and consider it a response to a really rough day. Or should I Give him a talk and on warning Monday.


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## rb_in_va (Jul 8, 2005)

diltree said:


> Or should I Give him a talk and on warning Monday.



That sounds good. Tell him you understand that he was not hapyy and everyone makes mistakes. The next time though, sayanora! That's what I would do.


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## Ekka (Jul 8, 2005)

rb_in_va said:


> That sounds good. Tell him you understand that he was not hapyy and everyone makes mistakes. The next time though, sayanora! That's what I would do.



I agree, do the guys get any extra for working in the rain or hazardous conditions like that day? 

Some out door awards over here say the employer must provide wet weather gear and workers may only "volunteer" to work, if so they get triple the hourly rate! Also if they get wet and soaked and have to go home you have to pay that high rate until they get home and not till they knock off!

So sometimes, the boss has to suck it up too.


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## Treeman14 (Jul 8, 2005)

Ditto


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

That's odd. I've never seen a treeguy get pissed and start cussing. What is this industry coming to?


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

We Knocked off at 2:00 and they got paid till 3:30, we provide wet weather gear, none of us used any today...because it was still pretty warm. Everyone is an employee at will, but when you do municipal work, your company is under contract to work on a 2 hour response time. Our employees are expected to be available in case of an emergency to service our contracts, whether it be an ice storm, or pouring rain. If they cant agree with that, I dont hire them in the first place. As far as sucking it up goes, my father and myself own the company, and we are both in the field everyday. So if there is a tough job we are right in the action, a quality our guys respect, especially considering the fact my Dad is 69 years old, and still taking down trees. Our employee retention is very good, this is the first time anyone had flipped like this.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

Always allow a 24 hr "cooling off" period before performing any actions, whenever possible.


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## Lawn Masters (Jul 8, 2005)

Well, IMO, you should talk to him, and find out what his problem was, then you can decide how to deal with it. be professional, and treat him as a professional. 

Some people need reminding sometimes that this is a job, and they cant act like kids and throw a tantrum just because they dont like being out in this kind of weather.


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## NWCS (Jul 8, 2005)

personally.. he would be out on his butt with me.. every employee must represent the company and keep the image up.. customers see that and they are not impressed.. even the lowest employee can drag an entire company down in the dirt.. i have had helpers get upset.. nothing like you described.. sounds like a very extreme case to me. even if he was one hell of a worker.. he would probly get paid and offered refrences and full details exactly why he was let go.


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> That's odd. I've never seen a treeguy get pissed and start cussing. What is this industry coming to?



Yah really! Blowing his top like the guy did, well it can happen if a person is somewhat immature and the conditions are very adverse. If everyone was feeling that way and one guy lets it out, maybe it's not so bad, but if the tantrum is to the point of being disruptive, then it is not a good thing. Having a chat with the guy as has been suggested, I think it's good advice. I also can see not saying anything at all, cut him some slack on it, but if it happens again, or his performance is questionable, adios! He is old enough to know better.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

But, in the final analysis, A-holes will always be A-holes.

Know whut I mean, Vern?


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## Lumberjack (Jul 8, 2005)

Your the boss, he is the employee.

Ask him for an explanation, perhaps there is extra circumstances you dont understand.

If he persists to be a pain, give him the day off to think about it. Insubordination is unacceptable.


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

An old Chinese proverb says that the best government is when the people will govern themselves.


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

Send the lil baby packin'.


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

So NeTree was never a bad boy?


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

runninghot said:


> So NeTree was never a bad boy?



Daily.... but who's gonna fire the owner?


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

Well said, Greg.

Having survived the horrible working conditions we had during Ice Storm '98 up in Canada... days like today ain't nuthin'.


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

.... unless Greg's skeered of a few raindrops....


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

The "company" approach is a good one, but "employee" is too big a word for me to get a good handle on, also haven't much had the experience. Is the person still working more or less in a training capacity? If so, compared to someone with a fair amount of experience, it requires a different approach I think. Rules are all very practical and all that, but knowing how to hold on to people with promise who may blow it sometimes, that is a great skill, both for the benefit of the company and for the future of the individual, especially if he is able to mature as time goes along. There are a lot of issues here; safety, work atmosphere, (OK) respect....and a wee bit of compassion too. My two cents.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

When I was a ManPusher, my motto was "Work, Walk, or Fight!"

That probably ain't too pc, nowadays. :Eye:


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

GICON said:


> Runninghot I agree with what you said, except for the line about the employee being new and in a training state. Its one thing for one of your veterans to show disrespect but a New Guy Telling the boss to F*** Off??? I agree that requires a different approach.......let him walk home instead of driving him back to the base. I also think ground guys deserve a bid of respect because of their job description, but telling an elder, and someone above you at the company to F off is just plain out of line.



Yes, it does cross a certain line when it gets to the point of telling the boss off by a younger guy. Self control is important, and the guy would be better off in just about everything he does for having it. MB, the days are long gone when tree workers had to carry a six shooter.....sadly.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

Haha. Don't I know it!


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## runninghot (Jul 8, 2005)

Emotional outbursts..it brings to mind a person I used to work with. He was a fine tree worker who could very well operate a crane, and also the best cable rigging idea person to call on for a tricky job. Unfortunately, he had a stroke and lost the use of one hand, and was slightly handicapped in the same side leg. When he was able to work again, he had become a very short tempered and irritable s.o.b. Everyone cut him a lot of slack, felt sorry and could understand his frustration, his having been so competent before his illness. I finally had to tell him not to call me anymore to work with him, as I thought his outbursts were jeopradizing safety, and consequently we are no longer friends. I always feel bad about it. He is a good guy, was always fun after work, but his illness tore him up. He couldn't change despite a number of discussions about it, and knowing himself that he had become a problem. Sometimes I miss the friendship and think that I should have continued to put up with his stress. Que sera sera I guess.....


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

As Master Blaster made clear earlier, guys in the tree care industry are in many cases the same guys who use vulgarity as common diction. So a "shut the ???? up", especially by a 20 year old kid, choosing to be a tree guy, can be expected. I don't think id ever go to the extent of firing a kid over one incident. The question is: do i let It go and attribute the comment as a result of a young guys first hard day of work, or sit him down and have a talk with him; is a talk really necessary??? I have been a foreman for seven years and this is the first tantrum I have experienced on a Job i was running. The situation knocked me back, maybe a few years ago i would have been very confrontational with the kid, but i have learned to let the little things ride as I take on more responsibility in life. Its not easy managing people you like, being the bad guy can be tough, as well as necessary. Just as well, leniency can be an effective way to manage in some instances.


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## Ax-man (Jul 8, 2005)

Sounds like this guy needs a little more than a cooling off period. If it keeps up he needs to see a counciler and how to deal with that pent up anger and how to manage it.

Larry


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## a_lopa (Jul 8, 2005)

hes 20 yrs old i would laugh it off in front of him,if he cant see the funny side to it exit stage left.so what he had a bad day get over it,its not going to run thru your crew like the plague.


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Lopa...thats what I did, a laughed at him, and told him not to be the only baby on the crew. I just wanted to see how others would deal with this type of a situation. I'm leaning toward your sediments


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

I think it would definitely drop my perception of the company a notch; seeing someone who's supposed to be a professional in that situation losing their cool.


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Greg, You should read the post a bit closer, The Job was on the side of rt. 9, you know where that is, being from Shrewsbury. No houses or Home owners and he said to shut the ???? up, when i interrupted his thorn bush induced temper tantrum. I agree acting that way on a private job is completely unacceptable. We only have seasoned veterans on our private work crew, honestly i don't think we have one guy with less then five years experience, when working for a homeowner. So your hypothetical situation is a bit unfathomable for my company. Still thank you for sharing your wisdom


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## a_lopa (Jul 8, 2005)

your generalising, if it was me sitting inside watching that it would be free entertainment springer style


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

The post was not unfathomable, nor is the idea. In fact i agree with you. We are in the habit of starting our rookies on hourly contract Jobs; Jobs that are less fast paced, where they can learn the basics. The private work( especially tree removal), requires a crew with a lot of experience, because we work at a fast pace and don't have time for on the job training, the groundman must be able to anticipate the Foreman's next move. We wouldn't have a greenhorn like this kid on a crew performing private work. No need to apologize gregory


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

So... when we gonna have a Massachusetts Tree Guy's BBQ?


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Sounds like a great idea.....BBQ...BEER...and CLIMBING GEAR


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

I dont smoke, but if an employee wants to, what the hell we are not in doors, im not inhailing it, just not on the homeowners property. I prefer Company apparel, but understand if mom didnt get to the laundry this week. Shorts at your own risk, I prefer shorts in the summer pants in the winter.


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

Company apparel is more professional-looking.


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Its great to look like a professional, better to be a professional, but best to achieve the reputation as a professional. Company apparel can never hurt in any facet


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

diltree said:


> Its great to look like a professional, better to be a professional, but best to achieve the reputation as a professional. Company apparel can never hurt in any facet


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Actually my B.A. was in English,and Business management. Still i am well versed in the teachings of Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, and Shigo


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 8, 2005)

Well, slap me around and call me Susan!


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

Let it go.....he's still a kid....another tantrum will require a talk. i think if he was older id expect more out of him, and would let him go, but i realize he has a long way to go, and maybe his employment with us can be a positive growing experience..................... Ahh maybe i should just go with NE and can his ass for being a baby. Maybe he can find employment at New England Tree


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

A wiser man then both you and I once said " they come and go like the flowers of spring" Its just a fact of life, being in this business isn't for evreyone, maybe he's just not cut out for this line of work.......Very few survive the long haul.


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## NeTree (Jul 8, 2005)

diltree said:


> Maybe he can find employment at New England Tree




HAHA! Why would I want him?


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## diltree (Jul 8, 2005)

I hear the kid is a great guitarist...maybe you could share a jam session at lunch time, or play a ditty for the crew during coffee break


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

diltree said:


> I hear the kid is a great guitarist...maybe you could share a jam session at lunch time, or play a ditty for the crew during coffee break



Some arpeggio work would be great.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Of course you were gregory.....thats an old school "one liner" certainly not from our generation, you have a sharp memory


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

could you enlighten me NE, on the term " arpeggio"


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

Arpeggio...

The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

like I said...BBQ...BEER....CLIMBING GEAR....and they can bring the guitar...as long as they stick to the classic rock


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

I prefer the blues, but sure... I can dig some old school rock. =)


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

NeTree said:


> Arpeggio...
> 
> The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.



Thanks man....I am bit ignorant when it comes to musical instruments...thank for the education


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

diltree said:


> Thanks man....I am bit ignorant when it comes to musical instruments...thank for the education



I am still myself a humble student of Leo Fender.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Greg.....BBQ...BEER...and you can bring your bucket truck...that should make it easier


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

My pallet for beer is very advanced...there are many flavors i enjoy in moderation


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

Molson or Sam Adams.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Was that a question....They are both great beers, but very different, kinda like comparing a sycamore to a Lyndon


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

No, I meant either is fine with me.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Good choices...your ok in my book...even if New England Trees pilon colored shirts and not the most fashionable in the bizz..at least you have good taste in beer..thats whats really important


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Greg you dont even drink...how could you make such an association


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

pilon? LMFAO!

With safety in mind, NETREE has visibility in mind, not fashion. 

Green is sooo passe.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

you know the cones you place around your truck when you park it roadside...A synonym for the orange cone things, is the Noun: Pylon


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

At New England Tree...

Pilon is what our groundies do....

pilon the brush to get it chipped and git'r'done.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Yeah but when you think bright orange, you think Pylon, when you think pylon, you think standing around, you don't want your motif to project that image


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

Naw... just an orange blur of exceptional performance.


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

Red, too.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

You wouldnt want to be associated with any of those newbies greg.....asplundh runs with the orange......I hate asplundh...but orange is fine i was just jokeing. Forest green is the old School ????, people always say if you cant beat'em join em...thats why the newbies run the green


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

(This has got to be the most fun I've had on ASite in a long time!)


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

well we are rained out here...cant bring the trucks in the back yard...cant earn our sat. extra......so we don't really have Sh*t to do...why not sit on the computer till late at night taking in each others rhetoric. NE we will have to meet up at some point for an eyeball and some calories.....no doubt(assumeing calories would be derived from the nutritious molson lager we all enjoy)


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

Greg... if we're still on for that $5k removal in the AM, I better get some zzzz's.

Been fun dil, look forward to a BBQ sometime soon.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Greg the 60 ton is a lieber crane...the company is astro.......I worked in the rain all week, im takeing the day off tomorrow, aside from a small micro-injection job. I would enjoy eating burgers and drinking lager watching you guys work in the rain. Where is the job...ill bring my slicker....Nah, i better spend the day with my wife. Be careful, hopefully the job goes smooth for you guys


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## NeTree (Jul 9, 2005)

With that, we return this slighly used, abused, and hijacked thread back over to normal arboricultural use. 

Thanks to all who participated, and to those who stood by to watch the show.


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## diltree (Jul 9, 2005)

Good Night and God Bless


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## notahacker (Jul 9, 2005)

Everyone understands the miserable conditions. This kid needs to be told that you will not be disrespected like that again. If he does it agian fire his arse! I complain about harst working environments when it is nasty out, but lashing out at a superior is wrong. Back in the old days that kid would have been popped in the mouth.


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## diltree (Jul 10, 2005)

If only things could be done like they where in the old days. A pop in the mouth would solve any insubordination, put a young guy in line in record time.


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## NeTree (Jul 10, 2005)

....and if that didn't work, hang 'em.


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## diltree (Jul 10, 2005)

I dont know how to tie the knot to do that, well i geuss a running bowline would work


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 10, 2005)

It's in The Tree Climber's Companion.


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## NeTree (Jul 10, 2005)

diltree said:


> I dont know how to tie the knot to do that, well i geuss a running bowline would work



Standard training for management.


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## diltree (Jul 10, 2005)

Your a sick man NE, im really starting to like you


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## NeTree (Jul 10, 2005)

diltree said:


> Your a sick man NE, im really starting to like you


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## Yellowdog (Jul 11, 2005)

after noon. This groundman is a good kid said:


> It's just a matter of time before he screams at a customer OR is in a life-threatening situation AND WILL NOT listen to reason. Let him go.. Tempers have no place on a dangerous job site (period). If I get yelled at by anyone other than family, I would want to end that working relationship.


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## rb_in_va (Jul 11, 2005)

Yellowdog said:


> If I get yelled at by anyone other than family, I would want to end that working relationship.



YD,
You've never lost your cool and yelled at someone? You must be a saint or sumthin'. I figure everyone makes mistakes. Better that someone points it out and calls the person on it. If it happens on a regular basis I agree with your solution.


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

Update: Today was over 95 degrees here in mass. I was running a five man crew taking out a bunch of State tree's over a guardrail and down a banking on the highway. We worked real hard, taking down tree after tree and lugging them up the hill to the road for chipping. The same kid from the original post ?????ed and moaned all morning. He started slacking, completely not pulling his wait, he was letting every one else do the work. I personally hauled a big log up the hill, when he reached over the guardrail for a hand off i threw it to the ground, and said pick it up, and enough with standing up here, go down the hill and get some!!!!! As a descended down the hill, he started screaming and swearing down at me, i admit i lost my temper, i ran up the hill got right up in his face and said you got something to say!!!!! I told him id roll his candy ass right down that hill. He said " I'm done, I'm not doing anything" and i responded "you bet your ass your done, and told him he can walk his ass off the job sight and find his way home" I fired him on the spot. I was angry for a minute, but quickly calmed down and felt very happy that i would not have to listen to him anymore, there just is no room for attitudes like his on any of my crews, he can find himself a job at McDonalds...i have already replaced him, have a new guy coming in tomorrow.


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## BostonBull (Jul 27, 2005)

Good for you its about time!!! I wouldve done the same take your tools and walk! No matter how far from the shop you were!


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## Trinity Honoria (Jul 27, 2005)

diltree said:


> Update: As a descended down the hill, he started screaming and swearing down at me, i admit i lost my temper, i ran up the hill got right up in his face and said you got something to say!!!!! I told him id roll his candy ass right down that hill. He said " I'm done, I'm not doing anything" and i responded "you bet your ass your done, and told him he can walk his ass off the job sight and find his way home" I fired him on the spot. I was angry for a minute, but quickly calmed down and felt very happy that i would not have to listen to him anymore, there just is no room for attitudes like his on any of my crews, he can find himself a job at McDonalds...i have already replaced him, have a new guy coming in tomorrow.



i see one thing here-- you gave him every chance. and now you will never wonder if you could have salvaged an employee... i am very thankful no one was injured due to his surly attitude and not doing his share...

i do have one question-- do you have pics of his face when you told him you'd "roll his candy ass right down the hill"?


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

Trinity......I wish I did have a pic...it was classic; im usually so calm, he never expected me to snap like that...it was priceless, his pouty walk down the highway was pretty funny too.


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## Trinity Honoria (Jul 27, 2005)

diltree said:


> Trinity......I wish I did have a pic...it was classic; im usually so calm, he never expected me to snap like that...it was priceless, his pouty walk down the highway was pretty funny too.



i imagine that your other employees will decide to NOT behave as this fellow did... and your actions will remain legend among your workers... passed on from generation to generation... 

you can now go to work without wondering how this kid will push your buttons during the next few hours...

years ago, someone told me one method of good parenting when the kids were acting up was to shoot one, then the others would toe the line. 

i never tried it. made certain there was never a gun in reach


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

You got it greg.......Message sent


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## NeTree (Jul 27, 2005)

Unfortunately, you lowered yourself to HIS level. Very unprofessional.


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## diltree (Jul 27, 2005)

To hell with being professional, it was unprofessional to hire the punk in the first place, Huge error in human resources......I seen no need to keep my cool, we were in the woods aside of a highway, was the perfect time to mix up current day professionalism with a little bit of the old school way of dealing with guys. My dad and my older brother once got in a fight on the Job, and my dad made him walk home with his climbing gear; my bro walked 16 miles from the job.......thats what i call human resource management


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## Buckeye_Jim (Jul 28, 2005)

You definitely had the authoritative edge and probably the physical edge over this kid. So why the bully stuff?

It's amazing that among all the options that people had taken the time to offer, you just chose to go apesh1t - now you're bragging and gloating about it online.

Whether you fired him or not you should have talked to the kid. You're fortunate enough to have a dad who works with you and taught you about work. Maybe this kid could have used a constructive critical word or two before you let him go.


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## diltree (Jul 28, 2005)

Yeah, I hear you Jim....I'm not a violent person, i never yell at any of my guys, and I'm not bragging, just updating the original post....but I have had three talks with this kid, this is the third time he has screamed at me. His actions were pretty blatant, he was leaning over the guard rail challenging me in front of my entire crew. I would never bully anyone, but i also refuse to take crap from some punk that thinks he's a tough guy. I have treated him with respect, but he crossed the line and i responded at his level. I think it was what he needed to be honest with you.


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## diltree (Jul 28, 2005)

Jim....I also took many options on this thread, i have had two talks with him about his temper, but this time his temper was directed at me, in a very aggressive manner, honestly im proad i was able to restrain myself, cause i really felt like sending the punk for a tmble down the hill.....I wish i had let him go in the first place, in the future I will not employ any other guys that cant control their tempers, im an arborist, not Dr. Phil....ok Buckeye Jim


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## NeTree (Jul 28, 2005)

Well.. the weather gets hot... and tempers flare.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 28, 2005)

If it was here, the entire crew would have smashed him before the boss got a chance, but its NOT the way.

As the boss, its you responsibility to be professional, keep your cool in heated situations, there are other ways you could have handled it. You know what I'm saying?


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## sharpstikman (Jul 29, 2005)

curious,to know what your other help thought of the situation,maybe it needs to be a group meeting, because if the others were in ear shot of him before you came down ,it may have been something different that you heard the end of .


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