# Vermont Castings "Defiant Encore"...anyone have any pre-purchase advice?



## kentuckydiesel (Nov 2, 2011)

I spoke with a guy last night about his Vermont Castings "Defiant Encore" catalytic wood stove. Basically agreed to buy it, barring any major defects. Anyone have any info on this model or experience with it? 

My Dad and Grandparents used to have Vermont Casting stoves which everyone loved, so given that, I'm going to look at this stove with cash in hand and a trailer behind my truck. I believe it was made around '94 or so, and it's standard cast black color, not the porcelain-enamel coated. Does $350 sound like a good price? 

Thanks,
Phillip


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## coog (Nov 2, 2011)

You might want to check on parts availability; VC went through several upheavals, and parts/service suffered. Good luck.


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## cheeves (Nov 2, 2011)

kentuckydiesel said:


> I spoke with a guy last night about his Vermont Castings "Defiant Encore" catalytic wood stove. Basically agreed to buy it, barring any major defects. Anyone have any info on this model or experience with it?
> 
> My Dad and Grandparents used to have Vermont Casting stoves which everyone loved, so given that, I'm going to look at this stove with cash in hand and a trailer behind my truck. I believe it was made around '94 or so, and it's standard cast black color, not the porcelain-enamel coated. Does $350 sound like a good price?
> 
> ...


Philip, Brother's name! Used a Defiant years ago. Great stove!! Can load it from top, side , or front. Has a thermostat. Beautiful cast iron stove.If not cracked $350 is a good price. Use dead red oak in it and it will really throw the heat!


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## coog (Nov 2, 2011)

Was your stove a catalytic? Not sure you can load one from the top.


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## logbutcher (Nov 2, 2011)

*Caveat Emptor*

When operating to spec, the early ( before 3 buyouts during the 1990's ) VC cat stoves were exceptional works of engineering and manufacture. We've been burning VC stoves since the late 70's. They were high quality products.

Be aware however that this wood stove can be high maintenance and demanding technical skill in repair when ( not if ) one of the components fails: SS thermostat/primary air cable, cat, secondary air, gaskets ( have to be tight and replaced , both exterior and interior ), and especially the refractory assembly package which needs replacing every decade or so ( inside cast parts have to removed ). Are you willing to learn the how of burning a cat stove ?

When operating right it's fine, heating 100% a ~ 1200 ft² wing of our place since 2001. 

Sounds like a deal for you. But: are you experienced with cat stoves ? Willing to fight cast stove repairs and maintenance ( cast stoves deform-- NOTHING goes back or is removed without grinding, bloodly knuckles, drill taps, much #@^%* ! ).

Some ideas: 
1. The cat certainly needs replacing at ~ $175.
2. Check ALL the cast plates in and out with a strong light. No matter what anyone says, cast iron is tough to repair correctly.
3. Look carefully at the primary air control and its flap in the back of the stove for operation.
4. Be sure that the cat damper operates open and shut. Difficult and $$$ repair if you haven't done this once.
5. The inside paltes should not be warped. The bottom grill always warps in time ~ $40..

Good luck. I'd be more tempted to buy a wood stove new from a pro dealer if you have the $$$.

P.S. The original VC Defiant was non cat, pre EPA. A heating beast from the 70's.


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## Doghouse (Nov 3, 2011)

I burned a VC Defiant Encore 2550 for years before switching to OWB. They are awesome stoves, like people have already stated. I had no problem finding parts for the stoves and even downloaded the manual from VC's website.


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## kentuckydiesel (Nov 3, 2011)

Well...I bought it! Stove looks almost new! 


logbutcher said:


> When operating to spec, the early ( before 3 buyouts during the 1990's ) VC cat stoves were exceptional works of engineering and manufacture. We've been burning VC stoves since the late 70's. They were high quality products.


This one was bought by the previous owner around 1992...Model 2190. Should this be one of the good ones? 



logbutcher said:


> Are you willing to learn the how of burning a cat stove ?


 Sure! Machinery is my strong suite. Where can I get detailed info about what needs to be sealed and how close a tolerance we're looking at? 



logbutcher said:


> Sounds like a deal for you. But: are you experienced with cat stoves ? Willing to fight cast stove repairs and maintenance ( cast stoves deform-- NOTHING goes back or is removed without grinding, bloodly knuckles, drill taps, much #@^%* ! ).
> 
> Some ideas:
> 1. The cat certainly needs replacing at ~ $175.
> ...



I expect the cat to need replacement soon...no big deal.
As far as repairing parts or fixing things, that's no big deal either. I manage a factory with WELL over 1,000,000lbs worth of early-mid 20th century presses, shears, press brakes, machine equipment etc...all made of cast iron. We can repair cast iron like it's goin' out of style! (I think it may be) 

Thanks,
Phillip


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## logbutcher (Nov 4, 2011)

Good deal: the 2990 was the first of the 'new' EPA cat stoves VC manufactured in the late 80's. The cat box is accessed from the rear (newer ones--2550- changed it so that the cat access was from inside the firebox--easier ). 

Check that the molded refractory ass'y over and under the catalyst is solid, that the thin metal plates on either side are in place and in one piece.

Cast iron stove repair is not the same as your cast tools NOT under heating expansion and contraction. Somehow the cast iron structure changes in time with heat. Don't understand why. Brazing works only some of the time for wood stoves.

The Encore and Defiant were complex; look at the schematic. The damper plate for the cat must 'lock' in place and be easily operated. It is the key to the efficient operation of the cat cycle. There's a gasket on the damper that usually wears in a couple of seasons of 24/7 northern heating. Do the "dollar bill" test on all the gaskets; special attention to the ash door.

Cat operation has been discussed here many times. There's one extra step in the burn cycle getting the cat up to temperature to "burn".

If you have a stove/HVAC smoke bomb, test the integrity of the cast plates. VC used furnace cement for the joints that dries and falls out in time. This beast needs be pretty well air tight. Rebuilding one can be like having a baby.:hmm3grin2orange:

Best success Kentucky.


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## kentuckydiesel (Nov 4, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Cast iron stove repair is not the same as your cast tools NOT under heating expansion and contraction. Somehow the cast iron structure changes in time with heat. Don't understand why. Brazing works only some of the time for wood stoves.



Actually, I have a good answer for the changing of cast iron with heat.

I'm sure you've heard of metals being hardened, tempered, or annealed. We use these processes to change the actual crystalline structure of metal in order to make it harder (less easily bent, but more brittle), softer (more easily bent, less brittle) or anywhere in between. 

The only thing actually being done in these processes is heating the metal to above, at, or just below the "upper critical temperature" of the particular metal, then either fast "quench" cooling (usually in water, oil, with compressed gas, etc), air cooling, or cooling very slowly (such as reducing heat while left in a furnace).

What goes on in a more complicated wood stove is uneven heating/cooling of assorted thickness metal used in dampers, baffles, etc, etc which leads to warpage/cracking. This isn't much of a problem in your basic box stoves for obvious reasons...everything is is about the same thickness and heats/cools at the same rate.

Also, brazing really isn't the best process with a cast stove. Brazing is basically "gluing" metal together with other metal. When cast iron expands and contracts, it can break this joint, not to mention the melting temp of some brazing metals being around 1150*F which can be reached in a stove.

The way we repair cracked/broken cast is to preheat the cast, then weld (DC stick welder, usually on reverse polarity) with a properly matched cast iron rod. Best to use short/narrow beads. In preheating and using short beads, you minimize the metallurgical change between the welded area and the surrounding metal which prevents future cracking from stresses such as the heat seen in a wood stove.

-Phillip


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## logbutcher (Nov 4, 2011)

Wayyyy over my lowly "homeowner" state. Informative...thanks.

That sounds like a long learning curve to get where you are. My friend the Pipe Fitter ( works on nukes and drinks my brand ) said that those skills take many years in the trade to reach the level you're talking about.

Anyhow, check out the Encore carefully before you burn. With any air leaks it can run away ( I know :msp_sad. Mostly: gaskets, joints, and look over the primary air flap for proper closure ( it's adjustable ).


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## kentuckydiesel (Nov 4, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Wayyyy over my lowly "homeowner" state. Informative...thanks.
> 
> That sounds like a long learning curve to get where you are. My friend the Pipe Fitter ( works on nukes and drinks my brand ) said that those skills take many years in the trade to reach the level you're talking about.
> 
> Anyhow, check out the Encore carefully before you burn. With any air leaks it can run away ( I know :msp_sad. Mostly: gaskets, joints, and look over the primary air flap for proper closure ( it's adjustable ).



No shame in being a "homeowner"! :cool2:

I work in our 125+/- yr old family business...just been raised around such talk then thrown in the ring to get it done. 

I'm gonna go through the stove well. Appears to have some warpage in the fireback, so I'm gonna pull it out, heat it, and straighten VERY SLOWLY. If it's a no-go, I'll just fabricate a new one.


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## logbutcher (Nov 4, 2011)

"Homeowner" is what the self-anointed pros use here....silly stuff.:confused2:

The fireback has a gasket around its edge. Usually replaced after many seasons' hard burning. That gasket along with the damper gasket is what seals the burn flow through the cat and ass'y. When you pull the fireback vacuum the areas behind it; careful, the refractory ass'y is soft, brittle, fragile.

Can you forge a new fireback ? 

A strong light such as halogen in a dark room may work to check the cast plate seams. Any air leaks solved with shoving gobs of furnace cement into the cracks without taking the stove apart. Sound like work ? But when you get it up to par, it's one of the finest heaters made.


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## kentuckydiesel (Nov 4, 2011)

I should specify, it is the upper fireback (the part the main damper seals against) which has a warp to it. The main fireback looks to be fine. I can make that upper fireback better than Vermont Castings did if it comes down to that. 


Might as well throw a new cat in while I'm at it. Know a good source?

-Phillip


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