# Grenade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warning, GRAPHIC content!!!



## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Time for a little CSI sleuthing. What happened to my saw?

This is my new MS440 I was preparing a little GTG surprise, and got a REAL surprise myself! This is a 046BB that I ported and installed today. I relieved the crankcase for the piston skirts, slotted the base mounting holes, ported it, and had it back together running. I fired it up, tuned the L a little, and let it set on the ground idling for about 5 minutes. I then walked over, blipped the throttle, and BAMMMMMM. It was barely above idle when this happened. She made the most aweful sound and locked up. There was no wondering about this one! I pulled the topend, and this is what I found.

I'm not 100% what failed, so your input is appreciated.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)




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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)




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## HittinSteel (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm gonna go with nuclear warhead over the grenade theory


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

I was very concerned about the bottom end of the saw, particularly the rod. I turned the saw upside down and put my parts washer nozzle directly into the case. I just let it flow and then began rotating the crank, while still upside down. I didn't want all that crap settling down into the bottom of the case and bearings. Fortunately no pieces got jambed enought to bust out the case. The bearings are as smoot as silk. I bolted the OEM topend back on, and it turns as free as can be. I think I got lucky on this one, despite all the carnage!!!


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## hamish (Jun 7, 2010)

Pissed and broke! oh wait thats me.........piston explosion caused by?? would luv to know


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

HittinSteel said:


> I'm gonna go with nuclear warhead over the grenade theory



And to think that this happened barely off idle as I blipped the throttle!


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## Brian13 (Jun 7, 2010)

Is that damage to the case I see? The first thing I noticed was a circlip in the crank but I think that might be due to piston explosion. Then I noticed what looked like case damage. Is it possible that the cylinder shifted when you hit the throttle causing the piston to hit the case. I have been thinking about doing that project one day and that has been one of the things that has crossed my mind a being a potential problem. Either way hope you figure it out and I am sorry to see that I would be in tears.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jun 7, 2010)

Ouch! JB weld will not help here!   :jawdrop:

Sorry to see that!


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Brian13 said:


> Is that damage to the case I see? The first thing I noticed was a circlip in the crank but I think that might be due to piston explosion. Then I noticed what looked like case damage. Is it possible that the cylinder shifted when you hit the throttle causing the piston to hit the case. I have been thinking about doing that project one day and that has been one of the things that has crossed my mind a being a potential problem. Either way hope you figure it out and I am sorry to see that I would be in tears.



There was definately no interference with the case. It would be impossible for the cylinder to shift. The case is fine, only scraped up a little.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 7, 2010)

Not "properly tuned" for E10?

opcorn:


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## Teddy.Scout (Jun 7, 2010)

There was a rotation (wooble, some sort of movement) to the piston.
I am guessing by the amount of damage to the piston, that it locked some how and with the force, loaded up and let loose. This would also explain the case damage.

But who am I to say!


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## rattler362 (Jun 7, 2010)

Brad i would like to tell you what broke first but i honestly don't know please if you figure it out let us know.

Mike


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## wigglesworth (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh crap. That thing tossed it's cookies for sure. 

Are you sure you clearanced the case enough? Maybe the piston hit? It was the 54mm kit, right?


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

There is no case damage that I'm aware of. Only gouges from the broken pieces of piston down in the rotating assembly.


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## mark360T (Jun 7, 2010)

sorry to hear that happened to you Brad, maybe it was a dud


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## wigglesworth (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> There is no case damage that I'm aware of. Only gouges from the broken pieces of piston down in the rotating assembly.



Well if it didnt hit the case....metallurgy failure? Maybe it tossed the clip? How does that clip that was out seat in what's left of the pin boss?


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## swamprat46 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yikes! I didn't realize they allowed X-rated pics on this site! Sorry for your loss, maybe just a little tight and got hot idling, just happened to get tight when you blipped it?????

John


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## polkat (Jun 7, 2010)

that is some carnage WOW, no bodily injuries I hope. my vote nitrous explosion, it would sound cool, maybe not. this is intresting


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Oh crap. That thing tossed it's cookies for sure.
> 
> Are you sure you clearanced the case enough? Maybe the piston hit? It was the 54mm kit, right?



Yes, 54mm. It wasn't even close to the case. I relieved the case to the diameter of the BB gasket, which is considerably larger than the bar. I also went far deeper than needed. The piston skirt only drops maybe .020" below the deck of the case. I think what you guys are thinking is case damage, may be where I ground on the case for clearance. I just double checked and it definately did not interfere with the case at all.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Well if it didnt hit the case....metallurgy failure? Maybe it tossed the clip? How does that clip that was out seat in what's left of the pin boss?



The clip is deformed. Did you notice the transfer bridge pushed in a cracked? Something definately got caught in there, whether that's what started it or not.


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## WildnCrazyGuy (Jun 7, 2010)

Peckerhead will be along shortly and give you the low down. He'll try to get all philosophical and talk about mixed gas, proper ratios, and the like. I'll just go with when you put the piston in you tapped the connecting rod with a hammer and bent it when putting it in.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> The clip is deformed. Did you notice the transfer bridge pushed in a cracked? Something definately got caught in there, whether that's what started it or not.



Yea, saw that. That's what got me thinking circlip.


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## Birdhunter1 (Jun 7, 2010)

A company called Alliant makes this gunpowder called Green Dot that is fast burning and tends to go KABOOM when you have an excessive oversharge of it..... looks like somebody might have replaced your gasoline with Green Dot.


On second thought maybe something just broke.


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## Thorcw (Jun 7, 2010)

I wonder if you might of had a little piston slap and with the widened porting it caught a port with the piston skirt and them wam broke it. I base this on how the pin boss broke like it did. Its either that or the pin boss is what failed.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

I have a theory. 

The cirlcip came out. As the piston was moving down, it got caught between the piston and transfer bridge, pushing it out and cracking it. At the same time the ring broke, and was pulled around some what. This allowed the ring end to drop into the intake port. As the piston moved back up, the lower ring caught on the top of the intake port, and broke the entire skirt off. 

I might be wrong, but this is the only way I can explain everything I see. The only other scenario would have been for the lower ring to have dropped into the port on it's own, but I don't believe the port to be wide enough for that to happen.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Thorcw said:


> I wonder if you might of had a little piston slap and with the widened porting it caught a port with the piston skirt and them wam broke it. I base this on how the pin boss broke like it did. Its either that or the pin boss is what failed.



No damage at all to the bottom of the intake port. The pin boss couldn't fail with abnormal force being exerted from some where else.


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## 2000ssm6 (Jun 7, 2010)

That will polish out....



















:jawdrop:A new 440.......:jawdrop:


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## jnl502 (Jun 7, 2010)

i think a ring hung on that wide intake port. that port is huge from the pictures. that is what i think. that sure was some nice port work Brad sorry for the loss
jnl


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> :jawdrop:A new 440.......:jawdrop:



I was FAR more worried about the saw than I was the topend!!!


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

jnl502 said:


> i think a ring hung on that wide intake port. that port is huge from the pictures. that is what i think. that sure was some nice port work Brad sorry for the loss
> jnl



That is a possibility I'm considering. I've lined everything up as carefully as possible, and don't believe that to be the case. I won't say it wasn't, but I don't think it was. Also, notice how far from the edge of the port that the marks from the ring are. Also, that also would not explain the damage to the transfer bridge, and the fact that it happened on the way down, and the skirt happened on the way up. The physical evidence verifies which direction the piston was moving when the two places were damaged.


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2010)

What brand aftermarket piston was it??

Looks like poor casting.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 7, 2010)

jnl502 said:


> i think a ring hung on that wide intake port. that port is huge from the pictures. that is what i think. that sure was some nice port work Brad sorry for the loss
> jnl



That makes sense. It did pull a big section off the top of the piston.


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Jun 7, 2010)

jnl502 said:


> i think a ring hung on that wide intake port. that port is huge from the pictures. that is what i think. that sure was some nice port work Brad sorry for the loss
> jnl



I hate to say it but I agree with this Jason. The port looked to be pretty wide.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> That makes sense. It did pull a big section off the top of the piston.



The piece missing from the top of the piston happened as the piston moved down. The skirt broke off as it moved back up.


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## WetGunPowder (Jun 7, 2010)

jnl502 said:


> i think a ring hung on that wide intake port. that port is huge from the pictures. that is what i think. that sure was some nice port work Brad sorry for the loss
> jnl



+1 Looks like the ring caught the intake port


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## Cantdog (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> The cirlcip came out. As the piston was moving down, it got caught between the piston and transfer bridge, pushing it out and cracking it. At the same time the ring broke, and was pulled around some what. This allowed the ring end to drop into the intake port. As the piston moved back up, the lower ring caught on the top of the intake port, and broke the entire skirt off.
> 
> I might be wrong, but this is the only way I can explain everything I see. The only other scenario would have been for the lower ring to have dropped into the port on it's own, but I don't believe the port to be wide enough for that to happen.




That looks like a possibliity as most of the piston damage is aft (intake side)of the wrist pin on the side that the clip is missing in the pics. I was pondering this as you posted. With so much damage it's hard to tell which came first the chicken or the egg!! Hard to tell if the clip came off by itself or was released by damage. Is the clip in the pic the one that's missing?? If it is, it doesn't seem to show any damage from being squished between the bridge and the piston??


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## Tzed250 (Jun 7, 2010)

.


Looks to me like it hung a ring on the way down. No matter what that happened, the evidence is the top land blown off. Circlips _usually_ don't cause that much damage. 


.


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## 2000ssm6 (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I was FAR more worried about the saw than I was the topend!!!



No doubt. Those pics make me stay farther away from the aftermarket stuff. That kind of failure can happen to either but that sure looks like the piston came apart. Bad thing was it wasn't even WOT.


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## ToXiC (Jun 7, 2010)

Possible something was in the exhaust that was sucked in when you blipped it, causing the the t-port and piston top damage from there that created an imbalance and piston slapped and grenaded. At least that's what i can come up with it's the only way I can explain the damage to the t-port and piston top


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## nmurph (Jun 7, 2010)

what i noticed is the small dings in the top of the piston. it looks like a circlip came loose, bounced around on the top for several revs and then hung in some of the lower transfers where it detonated the piston.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 7, 2010)

.


Yeah, the more I look at it the more it appears that the flywheel side of the upper ring pushed into the port. See how the piston is broken in line with the locating pin, and the port floor is broken down and out. My best guess anyway.


.


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## Fish (Jun 7, 2010)

I have seen a lot of toasted pistons, rings break, circlips, bearings etc.

Almost all if not all were oem, never have seen a piston reduced to gravel.

Which makes me still say it was a casting failure..


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## Deets066 (Jun 7, 2010)

Sorry for the loss, i know how you feel just when you think your goin to give her a run she takes a s#@t on ya. I put 2 out of 3 pistons in backwards in a snowmobiele once, dropped the rings on both but didn't do near that much damage.


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## ross_scott (Jun 7, 2010)

sorry to see all your hard work on that saw go up in smoke I guess you were lucky it never happened at a GTG.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Looks to me like it hung a ring on the way down. No matter what that happened, the evidence is the top land blown off. Circlips _usually_ don't cause that much damage.


I'm not following you. There's nothing for the rings to catch on the intake port on the way down. Or are you referring to the transfers? I don't think the transfers are near wide enough to catch a ring. Plus they were beveled after widening.



ToXiC said:


> Possible something was in the exhaust that was sucked in when you blipped it


Definately nothing in the exhaust. It was just assembled.



Tzed250 said:


> Yeah, the more I look at it the more it appears that the flywheel side of the upper ring pushed into the port. See how the piston is broken in line with the locating pin, and the port floor is broken down and out. My best guess anyway.


I'm still not following you. The top ring would never have dropped into the port. It would have to be the lower one.



Fish said:


> I have seen a lot of toasted pistons, rings break, circlips, bearings etc.
> 
> Almost all if not all were oem, never have seen a piston reduced to gravel.
> 
> Which makes me still say it was a casting failure..


There had to be an abnormal force that caused it to break. I'm not blaming a casting. I will comment that this piston is made out of something different than anything I've seen before. It is extremely hard and was difficult to cut, even with a carbide burr.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not following you. There's nothing for the rings to catch on the intake port on the way down. Or are you referring to the transfers? I don't think the transfers are near wide enough to catch a ring. Plus they were beveled after widening.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Operators left upper transfer. Is that not the side of the piston that has the top broken out?

Why couldn't the ring get in there, it passes all the way over the port on the way down...


.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Operators left upper transfer. Is that not the side of the piston that has the top broken out?
> 
> Why couldn't the ring get in there, it passes all the way over the port on the way down...
> 
> ...



I suppose it could be that would surprise me with it being no wider than it is. Also, I don't think that would puta gouge in the cylinder like it did.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 7, 2010)

.


That port is pretty durn wide Brad. 


.


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## troutfisher (Jun 7, 2010)

Is this the intake port with the Cylinder upside down? Looks like a ring snagged it on the way up.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Is this the intake port with the Cylinder upside down? Looks like a ring snagged it on the way up.



Yes, it is. I'm convinced the ring caught, but my theory is the the damage was started at the transfer port. IMHO, the ring end looks too far from the edge of the port to have been the initial cause. No? 

I appreciate all the opinions and feedback. Don't let my opinions stop you. This is a discussion. I'm not 100% convinced of any theory at this point. Probably no way to ever know for sure.


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## troutfisher (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Yes, it is. I'm convinced the ring caught, but my theory is the the damage was started at the transfer port. IMHO, the ring end looks too far from the edge of the port to have been the initial cause. No?
> 
> I appreciate all the opinions and feedback. Don't let my opinions stop you. This is a discussion. I'm not 100% convinced of any theory at this point. Probably no way to ever know for sure.



Very well could be. Man, that's a lot of damage to sort through and try to figure out what happened first!


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> That port is pretty durn wide Brad.
> ...



So I should make it wider next time


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## Rounder (Jun 7, 2010)

`


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## Tzed250 (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> So I should make it wider next time



Install the gapless rings and you are good to go!!!!


.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

mtsamloggit said:


> I've seen this several times before. That's all I'm going to say. There is a definite reason for what happened here. - Sam



That doesn't help us much


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## Rounder (Jun 7, 2010)

`


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Install the gapless rings and you are good to go!!!!
> 
> 
> .



I just need Husky pistons in my Stihls, where the ring ends are towards the middle of the port. Then I can make everything as wide as I want


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

mtsamloggit said:


> I wasn't going to say anything more, but I should add that I don't think Brad's port work was the issue. Not saying another word - Sam



Speak your mind. Just do so civilly. We're just discussing possibilities here. Hopefully we can learn from it. At least, hopefully I will!!!!!!!!!


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## breymeyerfam (Jun 7, 2010)

my personal opinion: lower ring dropped in intake at bdc and broke skirt off on its way up. then on its decent the skirt was laying under piston keeping it from traveling back to bdc thus breaking the bottom of the pin boss and then the c-clip came out doing the damage shown in the transfer on its next round before everything got piled up in the bottom. i've never saw a just a c-clip coming out do that kind of damage unless the wristpin catches the transfer port.


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## Showme (Jun 7, 2010)

Can I still keep my 440/460 your built or do I have to sent it back? Seem's to run pretty good, but what do I know?


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## edisto (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I don't think the transfers are near wide enough to catch a ring. Plus they were beveled after widening.



Beveled yes, but the side is pretty square.

More importantly, it doesn't matter how wide it is if the ends of the ring make their way in there. Hard to piece it together from the pics, but how far was the widened edge of the transfer port from the ring ends?


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## Nitroman (Jun 7, 2010)

Thorcw said:


> I wonder if you might of had a little piston slap and with the widened porting it caught a port with the piston skirt and them wam broke it. I base this on how the pin boss broke like it did. Its either that or the pin boss is what failed.



Bingo.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

edisto said:


> Beveled yes, but the side is pretty square.
> 
> More importantly, it doesn't matter how wide it is if the ends of the ring make their way in there. Hard to piece it together from the pics, but how far was the widened edge of the transfer port from the ring ends?



A ring end definately did not drop into the transfer port. That wasn't even close. The only thing close was the lower ring end to the edge of the intake port. Square sides don't catch rings. It's flat tops and bottoms you have to watch out for, particularly on the exhaust roof.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Nitroman said:


> Bingo.



The only way a the piston skirt can catch in the port, is on the way down. There are no marks on the bottom of the intake port at all.


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## Miniburbs36 (Jun 7, 2010)

I have seen blown up dirtbikes, blown up weedwackers, blown up chainsaws, blown up car engines, Not yet have I seen something that insane.

I really feel for ya, and Really I can't believe my eyes.


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## edisto (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> A ring end definately did not drop into the transfer port. That wasn't even close. The only thing close was the lower ring end to the edge of the intake port. Square sides don't catch rings. It's flat tops and bottoms you have to watch out for, particularly on the exhaust roof.



It's the flat top and bottom that make the side square...and that's what I was referring to.


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## stihlman32 (Jun 7, 2010)

Sorry to see the carnage Brad! I thought mine was bad...


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## bullittman281 (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm no 2t expert but looking at it think fish is on the right track. Its hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like the piston casting is less that perfect on the flywheel side of the piston. I think it took a little bit of help but poor casting of too brittle of a material and it might just grenade. I'm not sure though. It looks like some bubbles or something in the piston fracture. Got a good close up of the fracture? Its not normal for pistons to get torn in half.


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## songofthewood (Jun 7, 2010)

Looks like poor workmanship on the piston makers.Looks like air got into the casting of the piston.Sorry about the loss Brad.


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## RAMROD48 (Jun 7, 2010)

that's not that bad, its still recognizable....

this? Not so much....

So see....it could have been worse....


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## Erick (Jun 7, 2010)

Looks to me like the left side transfer snagged a ring on the way down and ripped the top of the piston off above the ring land shattering the brittle ring allowing the broken ring end to expand into the intake port causing the damage to skirt on the intake side. Skirt probably didn't happen all in one stroke, the ring end snag just started the failure and the skirt got beat to death with every stroke that came after. 

I can tell you one thing for sure... it was not a circlip issue, both of those clips were in when the catsasstrophy took place.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Well, I'm not too upset. The saw is back together and running with the OEM topend. It's no slouch with a popup piston and port work. I just wanted more. Maybe next time. How much you want to bet the intake isn't as wide next time!!!


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## bullittman281 (Jun 7, 2010)

DUDE! THAT'S AWESOME! The piston is sideways! At least Brads bottom end survived. Its got to be hard on rods to turn a piston sideways.


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## bullittman281 (Jun 7, 2010)

How 'bout a grenaded top end?


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Erick said:


> Looks to me like the left side transfer snagged a ring on the way down and ripped the top of the piston off above the ring land shattering the brittle ring allowing the broken ring end to expand into the intake port causing the damage to skirt on the intake side. Skirt probably didn't happen all in one stroke, the ring end snag just started the failure and the skirt got beat to death with every stroke that came after.
> 
> I can tell you one thing for sure... it was not a circlip issue, both of those clips were in when the catsasstrophy took place.



I can buy that. That's basically a combination of my theory, and TZeds. I still believe it started at the transfer side, and then progressed to the intake. This theory supports that.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Can you imagine what this would have looked like had I been tuning the H needle at WOT I probably wouldn't have a saw left to work on. It probably would have destroyed the crank and cases.


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## mtngun (Jun 7, 2010)

Kudos for the excellent photographs, Brad. I appreciate you sharing this.  I feel your pain.

The circlip is a chicken or egg question -- did the circlip pop out and jam the piston, or did the piston fracture first and let the circlip pop out ? 

You mentioned that the piston seemed unusually hard to cut with a carbide burr. That could be significant. How would aluminum get that hard, though -- too much silicon ? I hope Grande Dog will weigh in on the piston question.

I'd like to ask you something -- and I'm not pointing fingers, just gathering information, so don't take it wrong -- how wide were the ports as a % of bore diameter ? As you know, the general rule of thumb for a work saw is 65%. I noticed that one or two of your recent 660 build were going up to 70% ? Again, I'm not jumping to conclusions, just curious.


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I'd like to ask you something -- and I'm not pointing fingers, just gathering information, so don't take it wrong -- how wide were the ports as a % of bore diameter ? As you know, the general rule of thumb for a work saw is 65%. I noticed that one or two of your recent 660 build were going up to 70% ? Again, I'm not jumping to conclusions, just curious.



Fair question. You can't get the ports to 70% on most Stihls. They are far more limited than Huskys by both skirt width and ring end locations. The only way the "tractor saw" 066 got that wide was with use of a Husky 385 piston. The total width of the intake port was not a factor here. How close the ring end was to the edge may have played a part, but not necessarily. What looks to have burnt me here was a wider than stock transfer and not enough bevel on it. 

BTW, these were not the BB rings. These were Caber rings. So it can't be blamed on the infamous BB rings, which I've yet to have a problem with. Why did I use Caber? "Group think" I guess. I guess I'm guilty of believing some of the hype myself sometimes.


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## parrisw (Jun 7, 2010)

Yikes!


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

Showme said:


> Can I still keep my 440/460 your built or do I have to sent it back? Seem's to run pretty good, but what do I know?



I will rise again


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## rupedoggy (Jun 7, 2010)

Welcome to the world of hot rod chain saw failure. Having had all the various things happen to me or friends we got pretty good ideas what caused it. I will throw this out and you decide for yourself.
Everytime a circlip comes out it leaves up and down grooves. You will see the evidence in the piston or cylinder wall. Most times the clip is gone or embedded in the grooves. I don't see it and the clips look in too good of condition. Same if a screw of washer goes down the throat. Steel is hard and aluminum is not. Saw an actual imprint of a screw once on top of piston. It was the throttle shaft butterfly screw.
Ring snag is generally caused by lack of proper bevel. You don't need bevel at the side of the port only the horizontal part. A little more toward the middle tapering out toward the edge works well. Thing is a ring snags more at low RPM than high because it has more dwell time to jump into the port. If a ring is goint to snag you will feel it most when you are trying to pull the starter. If it is bad you will have the piston stop. Now if it is just slight the ring will beat a tell tale mark where it is catching. It doesn't just jump in there one time and explode (it was idling for 5 minutes). It will also leave a slight widened mark in the ring groove. I don't see that so have to discount that posibility.
OK then what? When you widen the intake port there is less support for the piston skirt. The side thrust in this area is tremendous. It increases with RPM and load. The aftermarket pistons seem more failure prone. I am no metalurgist but the alloys of aluminum are innumerable. Some are more brittle some tougher and some softer. When that piston is down near BDC the thrust is trying to force the piston into the intake port. When the skirt cracks, breaks and starts churning in the crankcase, pieces get ground up. Pieces get caught at the transfers. Pieces get between the top of the piston and the top of the cylinder. Castrophic failure is the result. It doesn't take much time, at say 8K, to do that kind of damage.
One last possibility is the material above the top ring breaks and the pieces destroy the engine. That always leaves lots of pinging, stippling, gouging on the top of the piston. Generally happens when we get to exeuberent in removing material for the popup and the ring is not supported above like it should be. Don't see that though. Brad? Mike


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## edisto (Jun 7, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I will rise again



Please tell me that is a phoenix reference, and not a Jesus complex...


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## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

rupedoggy said:


> Welcome to the world of hot rod chain saw failure. Having had all the various things happen to me or friends we got pretty good ideas what caused it. I will throw this out and you decide for yourself.
> Everytime a circlip comes out it leaves up and down grooves. You will see the evidence in the piston or cylinder wall. Most times the clip is gone or embedded in the grooves. I don't see it and the clips look in too good of condition. Same if a screw of washer goes down the throat. Steel is hard and aluminum is not. Saw an actual imprint of a screw once on top of piston. It was the throttle shaft butterfly screw.
> Ring snag is generally caused by lack of proper bevel. You don't need bevel at the side of the port only the horizontal part. A little more toward the middle tapering out toward the edge works well. Thing is a ring snags more at low RPM than high because it has more dwell time to jump into the port. If a ring is goint to snag you will feel it most when you are trying to pull the starter. If it is bad you will have the piston stop. Now if it is just slight the ring will beat a tell tale mark where it is catching. It doesn't just jump in there one time and explode (it was idling for 5 minutes). It will also leave a slight widened mark in the ring groove. I don't see that so have to discount that posibility.
> 
> ...



Everything you said makes sense to me. So your theory is that this was a case of the intake skirt failing due to lack of support, and possibly due to a brittle material? It was definately MUCH harder than normal. Your comments about lots of pieces churning around and getting ground up fit the bill. I was amazed how much small debris there was for an immediate and catastrophic failure.


----------



## AUSSIE1 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah that's a real bummer. 

It doesn't look like you have overly relieved the piston. 

What brand clips did you use?

I did notice in the "A tale of three saws" (I think it was) you like very wide transfers.

I suppose you get so wide it probably requires a bit of curvature like the Ex and In.


----------



## AUSSIE1 (Jun 7, 2010)

You don't need a lot of bevel. Coating thickness is usually all that's needed.
Too much bevel is only compensating for a lack of curvature at the top or bottom of the port.
But as Rupedoggy states more in the centre and lessening toward the sides would give a slight curvature.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Yeah that's a real bummer.
> 
> It doesn't look like you have overly relieved the piston.
> *
> ...



I used the clips from the kit. I really don't think it was a failure of the clip. Right now I'm thinking skirt failure or ring caught on the transfer. I'm still surprised to think a ring would catch in one of these transfers. They're not near as wide as an intake or exhaust. Plus I've ported too many cylinders like this and never had a problem. I guess there's always a first though. Fortunately, this was my saw, reguardless of the cause.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 7, 2010)

AUSSIE1 said:


> You don't need a lot of bevel. Coating thickness is usually all that's needed.
> Too much bevel is only compensating for a lack of curvature at the top or bottom of the port.



The transfers were beveled, both top and bottom. I bevel them with a stone, and then finish by hand with 600 grit paper. I still have a hard time imagining them hanging.


----------



## 04ultra (Jun 8, 2010)

File a claim with UPS .....








.


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

04ultra said:


> File a claim with UPS .....



I filed this one with Snellerized Saws. They've already got it back up and running. You can't beat their service:greenchainsaw:


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## Miniburbs36 (Jun 8, 2010)

Seems like snellerized saws has got something going for it, maybe I should send them a 346xp for porting once I get done clearing. 

btw did you see my muffler mod? you might only have to do porting as I am pretty proud of it.


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Miniburbs36 said:


> Seems like snellerized saws has got something going for it, maybe I should send them a 346xp for porting once I get done clearing.
> 
> btw did you see my muffler mod? you might only have to do porting as I am pretty proud of it.



Both of your mods look good


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## outdoorlivin247 (Jun 8, 2010)

04ultra said:


> File a claim with UPS .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





blsnelling said:


> I filed this one with Snellerized Saws. They've already got it back up and running. You can't beat their service:greenchainsaw:




No offense Steve, but :hmm3grin2orange:...LOL


----------



## ironman_gq (Jun 8, 2010)

I have to go with the brittle piston and a bad batch of casting on the pistons for this. As you said the piston was extremely hard which makes me think it was a bad casting or a mis-match alloy for the casting which ended up being extremely brittle. Where a normal piston probably would have survived what happened, yours exploded because it was extremely brittle. Different alloys can also have slightly different expansion rates which could also cause problems. I would let whoever sold you the kit know that they may have a problem with that run of pistons to prevent others from having the same problem.


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## Miniburbs36 (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Both of your mods look good



Haha, I sortof had to do it, will that be okay for porting? its like a 3/8 to 7/16, it melted a tiny bit while welding.

Sorry bout off topic :/


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## stihl86 (Jun 8, 2010)

I've never seen a loose circlip do that much damage.


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## spacemule (Jun 8, 2010)

That's what happens when you try to "fix" a perfectly good saw. Shame.

Maybe a cooling fin found it's way in there?


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## Miniburbs36 (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> That's what happens when you try to "fix" a perfectly good saw. Shame.



One could say "improve" but nobody will ever learn anything if we don't fail a few times. Many of the greatest improvements have been made with trial and error.


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## spacemule (Jun 8, 2010)

Miniburbs36 said:


> One could say "improve" but nobody will ever learn anything if we don't fail a few times. Many of the greatest improvements have been made with trial and error.



I've seen enough of Brad's "improvements." 


bent connecting rods, broken fins, slower than stock runs, etc. etc.


----------



## Miniburbs36 (Jun 8, 2010)

Haha, this is probably one of the best yet.


----------



## Justsaws (Jun 8, 2010)

I think that RD is correct.

It looks similar to some well worn piston skirt and cylinder bombs, perhaps on occasion encouraged by a grinder. 

I would have said hung ring but as previously mentioned usually there is more damage where the ring was feeling around for grip before the actual failure.

The images of the breaks in the casting are interesting. There seems to be a wide variety density present. Heat/duration during casting process was not correct for alloy. Could just be the images, but I would think that the modifications may have pushed that particular piston's quality past the safe zone.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> i've seen enough of brad's "improvements."
> 
> 
> bent connecting rods, broken fins, slower than stock runs, etc. Etc.



pos


----------



## vincem77 (Jun 8, 2010)

Sorry about the blowup.

Sounds like you might have gotten a California emission reduction piston. They shut down after 5 minutes of idling to save all the trees.


----------



## spacemule (Jun 8, 2010)

parrisw said:


> pos



asbl


----------



## belgian (Jun 8, 2010)

Miniburbs36 said:


> One could say "improve" but nobody will ever learn anything if we don't fail a few times. Many of the greatest improvements have been made with trial and error.



+1 ! and kudo's to Brad for posting the "error" with the public. 

Modding in general, which includes widening ports, piston windows, etc. involves also removing material and weakening the construction. I've seen pics here before from pistons that were really beefed down to the bone, so to speak. Combined with increased power/rpm, that also means that you may balance at the edge of construction limits sometimes. 

The risk also becomes higher if you work with aftermarket materials, whose specifications are unknown and untested under those circumstances.

Looking at the debries of this blow up, the piston casting doesn't shine really, but it's speculation really on my part. 

I am somewhat glad for Brad this blow up occurred on his personal saw and not on one of his customers. Customers have very little understanding for "errors" of such kind. That's why manufacterers spent millions in research and development and bring products to the market that are safe and lasting. It is also a reminder for sawnuts like us that we should be carefull with critique on sawmakers why things are done the way they are


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## nmurph (Jun 8, 2010)

Brad, what do you make of the dings in the top of the piston? something made those and it wasn't done in a single stroke or two. that took a bit of running to make that many and what happened with the bottom of the piston put an immediate stop to everything. i think you have a two part event.


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## MCW (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> That's what happens when you try to "fix" a perfectly good saw. Shame.
> 
> Maybe a cooling fin found it's way in there?





spacemule said:


> I've seen enough of Brad's "improvements."
> 
> 
> bent connecting rods, broken fins, slower than stock runs, etc. etc.



If you're studying "law" Space you should probably learn to open your mouth when you know it's absolutely necessary. I'd love to know how many of your 14,000+ posts actually contributed anything constructive to this forum...


Brad,
Are you sure your little throttle "blip" wasn't to 19,000rpm?


----------



## AUSSIE1 (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I used the clips from the kit. I really don't think it was a failure of the clip. Right now I'm thinking skirt failure or ring caught on the transfer. I'm still surprised to think a ring would catch in one of these transfers. They're not near as wide as an intake or exhaust. Plus I've ported too many cylinders like this and never had a problem. I guess there's always a first though. Fortunately, this was my saw, reguardless of the cause.



No not the clip, just noticed the shape, but that could have happened during the explosion and the pin is central.
The transfer doesn't look that wide with a second look. The grinding marks can be twice as wide as what's been removed.
Oh well if you reckon the ring end was well away it wouldn't have been here.
You don't normally go wider than 70%. Was this an exception or are you still at 70%?
If the lower ring drops into the inlet it seems to be pointing here or the skirt.
Damn lucky though in one respect as it could have been alot worse.


----------



## porky616 (Jun 8, 2010)

graphic images! im gonna need counselling after looking at these pics.


----------



## Arrowhead (Jun 8, 2010)

The damage _had_ to happen in several strokes. So who knows for sure what pieces were where at the time. It's possible a ring caught a port. I think this would be more likely at lower speeds though. I'm thinking it's a casting flaw. By the looks of the piston.... I say it was too hard/brittle. There could have been a tiny crack somewhere undetectable to the eye. The company's that make these BB kits are trying to do it as cheaply as possible. The cosmetics may have improved over the years, but who's to say they are using quality alloy to produce them. It makes sense to me that if there was a factory defect with the piston it sustained itself at idle. Once it warmed up and the heat expanded the problem area and the increased rpm..... she blew. Just my .02


----------



## john inglis (Jun 8, 2010)

*bad luck*

sometimes thing go wrong but you will never learn anything unless you have a go , thanks for the post brad , was just thinking about a big bore for one of my 460's but might wait a while . do enjoy all the modifications you do , keep it up .


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

belgian said:


> I am somewhat glad for Brad this blow up occurred on his personal saw and not on one of his customers.


I couldn't agree more!!! I made the same comment to my wife, and earlier in the thread. 



nmurph said:


> Brad, what do you make of the dings in the top of the piston? something made those and it wasn't done in a single stroke or two. that took a bit of running to make that many and what happened with the bottom of the piston put an immediate stop to everything. i think you have a two part event.


I really don't know. But I now do not believe the clip failed though. Something else instigated this.



MCW said:


> Brad, Are you sure your little throttle "blip" wasn't to 19,000rpm?


 Not even close. I hadn't even tried to tune the H at all. This was the first of a couple heat cycles I was going to put it through first.



AUSSIE1 said:


> No not the clip, just noticed the shape, but that could have happened during the explosion and the pin is central.
> The transfer doesn't look that wide with a second look. The grinding marks can be twice as wide as what's been removed.
> Oh well if you reckon the ring end was well away it wouldn't have been here.
> You don't normally go wider than 70%. Was this an exception or are you still at 70%?
> ...


The more I think about it, I'm just not buying that a ring caught in the transfer. They just aren't that wide, and they were beveled. I've done too many just like this.



Arrowhead said:


> By the looks of the piston.... I say it was too hard/brittle.


There's no question that this piston was extremelty hard, much harder than normal.


----------



## mtngun (Jun 8, 2010)

I went back and looked at the pics again, and still don't see a smoking gun.

It's probably not going to happen, since the government is not funding this project, but I'd love to see the piston remains checked out by a metallurgical lab.

Any major universities in your area, that would have an engineering lab, to test hardness, and ideally run a SEM on the piston, and compare the results to an OEM piston -- for free ?  

If it is true, as you say, that the piston metal was unusually hard, then that's your answer. 

Other than the piston alloy theory, there's no smoking gun. Yes, it was an aggressive port job, maybe a little too aggressive for my taste, but nevertheless, racers run aggressive port jobs and get them to last at least a few minutes.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> asbl



fjoeilsdfghde


----------



## cat-face timber (Jun 8, 2010)

john inglis said:


> sometimes thing go wrong but you will never learn anything unless you have a go , thanks for the post brad , was just thinking about a big bore for one of my 460's but might wait a while . do enjoy all the modifications you do , keep it up .



:agree2:


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

I've always been one to share the good, the bad, and now...the ugly. I figure we can all learn something from it.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I couldn't agree more!!! I made the same comment to my wife, and earlier in the thread.
> 
> 
> I really don't know. But I now do not believe the clip failed though. Something else instigated this.
> ...





How many catastrophic failures have you diagnosed Brad?

I promise you hung a ring. I have seen plenty of skirt failures and they don't turn out like that. The pin boss broke out from the bottom because the piston was stopped on the downstroke. 

If you are going to claim a problem with the metal then please start a new thread about how the quality of the Chi-com big bore kits is going downhill. 




.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> How many catastrophic failures have you diagnosed Brad?
> 
> I promise you hung a ring. I have seen plenty of skirt failures and they don't turn out like that. The pin boss broke out from the bottom because the piston was stopped on the downstroke.
> 
> ...



TZed, you don't always have to go on the offensive like that. Fortunately, this is the first catastrophic failure I have seen. *Your opinion is only one of many*. I'm not saying yours is wrong. But your implying that I should buy what your saying over everyone else. You might also do good to remember that a poorly cast piston was not my idea. Many others keep mentioning it, so I'm not throwing that out. There is evidence that the piston is far harder than a typical piston. Try to keep this a discussion, rather than a fight, if you can.


----------



## mtngun (Jun 8, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> I promise you hung a ring. I have seen plenty of skirt failures and they don't turn out like that. The pin boss broke out from the bottom because the piston was stopped on the downstroke.


Tzed, let's say your theory is right, what exactly was done wrong that caused the ring to hang in the transfer port ? What should have been done different ? How are Brad's port mods more radical than what is routinely done on race saws ?

I'm just trying to learn.........


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I went back and looked at the pics again, and still don't see a smoking gun.
> 
> It's probably not going to happen, since the government is not funding this project, but I'd love to see the piston remains checked out by a metallurgical lab.
> 
> ...



:agree2:

Here's a site on metal hardness FWIW: Metal hardness

As always, Brad posted his pics to his photo album. Here's a link to more/larger pics: Brad's pics


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> TZed, you don't always have to go on the offensive like that. Fortunately, this is the first catastrophic failure I have seen. *Your opinion is only one of many*. I'm not saying yours is wrong. But your implying that I should buy what your saying over everyone else. You might also do good to remember that a poorly cast piston was not my idea. Many others keep mentioning it, so I'm not throwing that out. There is evidence that the piston is far harder than a typical piston. Try to keep this a discussion, rather than a fight, if you can.




Blsnelling, no offense. I was simply looking for
information about how many failures of this kind you have dealt with. You started discounting theories but now admit your experience level brings extremely lImited knowledge to the table. Maybe you need to quit feeling defensive. 

The saw failed. You made a mistake. Either by modifying the parts, or by trusting low cost Chinese parts. If your work is flawless then you do your customers no favors recomending Chi-com parts. 

This ain't my first time at the rodeo Brad, but it is yours. If you don't want to hear what someone with more experience has to say about the blow-up that is fine. In a situation like this you were given two ears and one mouth for a reason. 

Carry on.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Blsnelling, no offense. I was simply looking for
> information about how many failures of this kind you have dealt with. You started discounting theories but now admit your experience level brings extremely lImited knowledge to the table. Maybe you need to quit feeling defensive.
> 
> The saw failed. You made a mistake. Either by modifying the parts, or by trusting low cost Chinese parts. If your work is flawless then you do your customers no favors recomending Chi-com parts.
> ...



Like I said earlier in the post, I value everyone's input. That means I value the input of those that don't agree with you. I'm using those two ear to listen to both your *and *everyone else. And just for the record, I won't install a BB kit on a paying customers saw. But that's beside the point. 

Yes, I did make a mistake, one way or the other. I'm fine with that, but want to learn from it. I'm also big enough to post it here for everyone else to see. I figure *everyone *has room to learn something. I guess you're done learning, ehh? You're still asserting your opinion over everyone else's.

I do want to hear what you, and everyone else has to say. But I'm not going to have one person's opinion shoved down my throat.

If your intentions here are what you say they are, you'll drop this and let the thread continue.


----------



## isaaccarlson (Jun 8, 2010)

was that the first time that piston ran in that saw?


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

isaaccarlson said:


> was that the first time that piston ran in that saw?



Brand new topend. I fired it up, tuned the L, which included a few very light throttle blips to check throttle response. I then let is sit and idle for 5 minutes. I picked up and just started to blip the throttle, very mildly, and BAMMMM! It immediately grenaded.


----------



## isaaccarlson (Jun 8, 2010)

ok...sorry, jusr reread the 1st post. Did you run the rpm up and down while setting the L screw? If it was a bad casting then the heat cycles could have made a small crack into, well...a blown up piston. I am putting my money on a bad casting/alloy.


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

isaaccarlson said:


> ok...sorry, jusr reread the 1st post. Did you run the rpm up and down while setting the L screw? If it was a bad casting then the heat cycles could have made a small crack into, well...a blown up piston. I am putting my money on a bad casting/alloy.



It never saw many RPMs at all. Not even close to WOT. This was to be a heat cycle with not high RPM loading.


----------



## BuddhaKat (Jun 8, 2010)

I honestly think you had a defective piston. It's pretty clear that the failure happened at the piston first and everything else in the aftermath. I don't think you did anything wrong, you just got bit by a part that had a flaw in it that wasn't visible as you assembled it.

Bummer.


----------



## olyman (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> I've seen enough of Brad's "improvements."
> 
> 
> bent connecting rods, broken fins, slower than stock runs, etc. etc.



then start showing the world how good a modifier you are--


----------



## olyman (Jun 8, 2010)

parrisw said:


> pos



that is being FARRRRRRR to nice to him-------


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

olyman said:


> then start showing the world how good a modifier you are--



Just ignore him. The only way I even see his posts is when you guys quote him. I reccomend you all do that. He'll quit and go away when you quit giving him attention.


----------



## olyman (Jun 8, 2010)

MCW said:


> If you're studying "law" Space you should probably learn to open your mouth when you know it's absolutely necessary. I'd love to know how many of your 14,000+ posts actually contributed anything constructive to this forum...[qutoe] the only way THAT is going to happen--if his mouth gets suddening shut by someone when he opens it too far--like he has a habit of----and with NO witness--so he cant sue them--


----------



## olyman (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Just ignore him. The only way I even see his posts is when you guys quote him. I reccomend you all do that. He'll quit and go away when you quit giving him attention.



never--hes been hammered sooo many times--but not by someone to his face--hes a wanna be know it all lawyer--


----------



## Justsaws (Jun 8, 2010)

Tzed250, are you thinking that after idling for five minutes it hung the ring on the down stroke, clipped the top off the piston with other small damage, tipped the piston, partial skirt shattering, stroked through once more, completed the shattering and and locked up?


----------



## edisto (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Tzed, let's say your theory is right, what exactly was done wrong that caused the ring to hang in the transfer port ? What should have been done different ? How are Brad's port mods more radical than what is routinely done on race saws ?
> 
> I'm just trying to learn.........



I think I'm going to have to add "Tzed is right" to my signature line, because he just keeps making sense. And how can you argue with someone with such a clean cylinder?

I can't see the top of the piston shearing off without a ring having caught to generate that force. The extent of the damage might have to do with casting issues, but I am convinced a hung ring is the root cause.

The transition on the top of the intake port is more square than I would like, but looking at where the blowout occurred on the piston, the intake isn't an issue.

Brad didn't actually answer your question of intake width, but assuming a width of 65% of bore diameter, and a 90 degree split between the pins, there is a little more than 2.1mm of cylinder wall between the edge of the intake and the pin. Looking at the pic that shows the separation between the intake and the transfer, Brad's conclusion that the end of the ring didn't make it into the transfer port seems to be valid.

So what caused the ring to hang? I would say the widened portion of the port was much too square. The pic might exaggerate this, but that profile would make me nervous before the piston cratered. The damage to the transfer appears consistent with this.







Widening the transfers can improve scavenging by decreasing velocity, but only if the flow remains symmetrical. I wouldn't widen transfers without some means of examining flow. From what I've read, it'll take the peak down a little and give you more in the middle.



blsnelling said:


> If your intentions here are what you say they are, you'll drop this and let the thread continue.



If your intentions here are what you say they are, you'll stop lashing out when you get answers you don't want to hear.

If you give all opinions equal weight, you'll never have an answer.


----------



## Grande Dog (Jun 8, 2010)

Howdy Brad,
As long as a lot of people are speculating, I think it was that German junk you hung under our fine top end. 
Based on the pictures I would most have to agree with Tzed250's scenario. This doesn't rule out what many have said that they thought it was poor, or improper casting. If you want to find a place that will test the damaged piston compared to OEM, I'll pay for it. As far as the disposition of what you have now, whether it was the chicken or the egg is to hard to tell with the photos. I know this came out of your pocket, so I don't have any problem replacing it, or refunding you.
Regards
Grenade Dog


----------



## spacemule (Jun 8, 2010)

edisto said:


> If your intentions here are what you say they are, you'll stop lashing out when you get answers you don't want to hear.
> 
> If you give all opinions equal weight, you'll never have an answer.



Just ignore him. He'll go away when you all quit giving him attention.


----------



## Dan_IN_MN (Jun 8, 2010)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Brad,
> As long as a lot of people are speculating, I think it was that German junk you hung under our fine top end.
> Based on the pictures I would most have to agree with Tzed250's scenario. This doesn't rule out what many have said that they thought it was poor, or improper casting. If you want to find a place that will test the damaged piston compared to OEM, I'll pay for it. As far as the disposition of what you have now, whether it was the chicken or the egg is to hard to tell with the photos. I know this came out of your pocket, so I don't have any problem replacing it, or refunding you.
> Regards
> *Grenade* Dog



 

Way to stand behind a product!

WOW


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Brad,
> As long as a lot of people are speculating, I think it was that German junk you hung under our fine top end.
> Based on the pictures I would most have to agree with Tzed250's scenario. This doesn't rule out what many have said that they thought it was poor, or improper casting. If you want to find a place that will test the damaged piston compared to OEM, I'll pay for it. As far as the disposition of what you have now, whether it was the chicken or the egg is to hard to tell with the photos. I know this came out of your pocket, so I don't have any problem replacing it, or refunding you.
> Regards
> Grenade Dog



Thanks for chiming in Gregg. German junk ehh?

It would indeed be interesting to have the piston tested, but I have no connections to anyone that does that kind of work. I'd be more than happy to send it back to you if you're interested in doing so.

Thanks for the offer. Baileys always stands behind their customers, even when they don't have to. There's not proof this was a problem with their product, yet they're more than willing to stand behind it.


----------



## spacemule (Jun 8, 2010)

MCW said:


> If you're studying "law" Space you should probably learn to open your mouth when you know it's absolutely necessary. I'd love to know how many of your 14,000+ posts actually contributed anything constructive to this forum...
> 
> 
> Brad,
> Are you sure your little throttle "blip" wasn't to 19,000rpm?



I made an announcement in off topic a month or so back that I'm no longer in law school and do not plan on finishing it. 


That aside, I have just about as many posts "contributing" something as you have complaining about my lack of contributing.  Truth is, people just get annoyed and attack me instead of what I'm saying because I say the glaring truth. You can't attack the truth, so throw mud and ignore.


----------



## edisto (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> Just ignore him. He'll go away when you all quit giving him attention.



I hate it when he comes up with a clever one. Must be the law of averages...



manyhobies said:


> Way to stand behind a product!
> 
> WOW



No kidding!


----------



## Paul001 (Jun 8, 2010)

breymeyerfam said:


> my personal opinion: lower ring dropped in intake at bdc and broke skirt off on its way up. then on its decent the skirt was laying under piston keeping it from traveling back to bdc thus breaking the bottom of the pin boss and then the c-clip came out doing the damage shown in the transfer on its next round before everything got piled up in the bottom. i've never saw a just a c-clip coming out do that kind of damage unless the wristpin catches the transfer port.



+1

Either that or it had a broken cylinder fin!



I've posted pictures of some pretty good kaboomies, nothing this far gone. Even most interesting is the fact it happened just off idle. Causes me concern as to the material used in the piston/cylinder. As others have said, circlips coming loose normally do not produce any where near this kind of damage. But add in the fact you are dealing with an unknown, the material this piston is made out of, and we can not rule it out.

Still the above quote most accurately presents my thoughts.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I can buy that. That's basically a combination of my theory, and TZeds. I still believe it started at the transfer side, and then progressed to the intake. This theory supports that.
> 
> The more I think about it, I'm just not buying that a ring caught in the transfer. They just aren't that wide, and they were beveled. I've done too many just like this.
> 
> ...




Looks like you were the first to state that you were done..ehh?


Best thing about this whole deal is that I don't have a blown top end. 
What I do have is 3 decades of experience with two-stroke engines to help form my opinions. 

BTW, just thought I would let you know that I'm impressed that you brought this into the light, even said something to that effect to my girl this morning. 

Awaiting your diagnosis and countermeasure...


.


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## Paul001 (Jun 8, 2010)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Brad,
> As long as a lot of people are speculating, I think it was that German junk you hung under our fine top end.
> Based on the pictures I would most have to agree with Tzed250's scenario. This doesn't rule out what many have said that they thought it was poor, or improper casting. If you want to find a place that will test the damaged piston compared to OEM, I'll pay for it. As far as the disposition of what you have now, whether it was the chicken or the egg is to hard to tell with the photos. I know this came out of your pocket, so I don't have any problem replacing it, or refunding you.
> Regards
> Grenade Dog



Class act at all times.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

Justsaws said:


> Tzed250, are you thinking that after idling for five minutes it hung the ring on the down stroke, clipped the top off the piston with other small damage, tipped the piston, partial skirt shattering, stroked through once more, completed the shattering and and locked up?



Pretty close. I believe it fractured the botoms of the pin bosses at the same time. 


.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

Paul001 said:


> Class act at all times.



:agree2:


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## Grande Dog (Jun 8, 2010)

Howdy All
It would be interesting to get the material inspected by an independent tester. I don't have anyone in the little black book that does this. Anybody out there interested or, know of a qualified tester?
Regards
Gregg


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## striperswaper (Jun 8, 2010)

*piston analysis*

there has to be at least one person with work or university connections on this site but will they read all the way thru to here?
start a new thread to ask for help? do you have the specs on what the alloy of the piston should be to compare?


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## Grande Dog (Jun 8, 2010)

Howdy,
Hopefully someone will see this and help out. I wouldn't have any specs for the OEM but, I could come up with a OEM piston for comparison. When I went to our piston manufacturers, It was pretty low tech. They buy there ingots from the middle east ( cheap electricity for processing). The just made it in batches. They had two different kinds of ingots that had different compositions. All they did was take like 5 of one kind, and 1 of the other kind and melt them til it's ready to cast.
Regards
Gregg


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## porky616 (Jun 8, 2010)

i would be looking into the piston myself. i have minimal 2 stroke experience but a lot of diesel experience and in the last 5 years ive seen 4 piston failures in earthmoving equipment. one such failure made court as one of the worlds number 1 heavy equipment builders would not have it that the piston failed. my boss won the case after the piston was inspected in a lab and found to have several casting flaws. quality and name brands dont always mean they are perfect. just my 2 cents worth


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 8, 2010)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Hopefully someone will see this and help out. I wouldn't have any specs for the OEM but, I could come up with a OEM piston for comparison. When I went to our piston manufacturers, It was pretty low tech. They buy there ingots from the middle east ( cheap electricity for processing). The just made it in batches. They had two different kinds of ingots that had different compositions. All they did was take like 5 of one kind, and 1 of the other kind and melt them til it's ready to cast.
> Regards
> Gregg



I just ordered a kit yesterday and I gotta say this scares the crap out of me. I can't beleive they don't know what the alloy is. Wow. I guess I just found out why OEM pistons cost so much


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## mtngun (Jun 8, 2010)

Grande Dog said:


> Hopefully someone will see this and help out. I wouldn't have any specs for the OEM but, I could come up with a OEM piston for comparison.


I don't have a Rockwell hardness tester (yet), otherwise I'd love to help. 

But as I suggested earlier, most engineering colleges will have a materials lab, and if you ask them nicely, and are willing to wait (because they may do it as a student project) they may be willing to help you for little or nothing. 

Brad claims the piston was unusually hard to grind. If that's true, a hardness test should show it, compared to OEM or another BB piston. Only thing I can think of that would cause that is unusual silicon content ? ? ? Porosity wouldn't cause it to be hard to grind, would it ?

Years ago, I had a local college test the hardness on a gun barrel. A student I knew did the testing, and it didn't cost me anything. Unfortunately for this thread, I no longer live near a college. 

There are fancier tests, but they take fancier equipment, and much more time. A hardness test would be quick and easy. 

I don't have any dog in this fight, I just want to learn. I'm sure Brad does, too.


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Would a simple hardness test be helpfull? Wouldn't a larger machine shop have one of those tools that puts a little dent in the metal to test the hardness?


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## blsnelling (Jun 8, 2010)

Any reason for me to save the fragments? I've already thrown them in the garbage, but could dig them out. I have the main part of the piston saved though.


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Any reason for me to save the fragments? I've already thrown them in the garbage, but could dig them out. I have the main part of the piston saved though.



you need a flat smooth peice for a hardness test. 

Lee (the reloading tool company) makes a cheap brinell hardness (lower scale of measurement suitable for soft metals) tester. It works on the same principle; make a dimple and measure it under magnification. It is designed for lead alloys so not sure if it would translate to aluminum


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> I just ordered a kit yesterday and I gotta say this scares the crap out of me. I can't beleive they don't know what the alloy is. Wow. I guess I just found out why OEM pistons cost so much



I doubt you have anything to worry about.


.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

.


Hardness is only a small slice of the pie...


.


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## mtngun (Jun 8, 2010)

edisto said:


> So what caused the ring to hang? I would say the widened portion of the port was much too square.


.






So you think the upper transfer port was too wide and too square, and it snagged a ring on the downstroke ?

Fair enough.

The most severe piston damage does appear to be near the flywheel side transfer. That does make the transfer port look suspicious.

However, it doesn't explain why many, many people have widened transfers without incident ? ? ? 

If we buy the snagged-ring-in-transfer theory, then how should porters handle the upper transfer to avoid this problem ? 

It is easy to say the port should be less square, but...... few of us have an angle grinder to sculpt transfers. 

Personally, I would not have widened the ports that much on a work saw, but I understand Brad wants to have the fastest saw on the block.  

The only other preventative suggestion I can offer, is to run a new top end in stock form for a few tanks of gas before porting. I don't always have the patience to do that, but, if it had been done in this case, it would have made troubleshooting so much easier.


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## mtngun (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Would a simple hardness test be helpfull? Wouldn't a larger machine shop have one of those tools that puts a little dent in the metal to test the hardness?


True, a larger machine shop might have a Rockwell hardness tester. Any shop that does a lot of heat treating should have one. Maybe Nick knows of one in the area ?

The test point is tiny, so you don't need a big piece. It does need to be a shape that will sit still while it is being tested -- that may be a challenge with your shattered piston. A round piece is OK as long as it will sit still (the gun barrel that I had tested was round). 

Thanks for posting this, Brad. It would have been easy to pretend it never happened, but then we wouldn't learn anything.

Personally, I just like to have a definitive answer so I can either 1) rethink how to mod transfer ports or 2) rethink aftermarket pistons.


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## MCW (Jun 8, 2010)

spacemule said:


> I made an announcement in off topic a month or so back that I'm no longer in law school and do not plan on finishing it.



I don't read off topic very often unless a thread from the chainsaw section is moved there and I follow it 



spacemule said:


> That aside, I have just about as many posts "contributing" something as you have complaining about my lack of contributing.



That'd be two or three contributing posts then  



spacemule said:


> Truth is, people just get annoyed and attack me instead of what I'm saying because I say the glaring truth. You can't attack the truth, so throw mud and ignore.



Seriously though you pop up in the middle of a thread where people are talking about what may have gone wrong with this setup just to have what I would call a cheap crack at Brad? How many hundreds of builds has Brad done with no problems? There is some truth to what you're saying as in the risk of a failure will increase when modifying but if properly done shouldn't cause a reliability issue. I'm no modding guru but believe that what has happened here is a casting flaw. Of course I could be wrong 


I can see why some people think that by modifying a perfectly good saw you are wrecking it and to be honest I would have agreed until I got one (which to me was a very tough decision - just so happens I had a bit of money to waste at the time!). If I can take a 79cc Dolmar out tree felling that will perform the same as a heavier 395XP then count me in anyday...

By the way though, I do like your avatar


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> True, a larger machine shop might have a Rockwell hardness tester. Any shop that does a lot of heat treating should have one. Maybe Nick knows of one in the area ?
> 
> The test point is tiny, so you don't need a big piece. It does need to be a shape that will sit still while it is being tested -- that may be a challenge with your shattered piston. A round piece is OK as long as it will sit still (the gun barrel that I had tested was round).
> 
> ...



There is a hardness tester 10ft. from where I eat my lunch. Better to have a third party do it.


.


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## AUSSIE1 (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those single transfers do lack a bridge for the ring to ride on.
Is very hard to say if a port with this width would hang a ring unless there is a ring end issue.

Possibility of a broken ring upon assembly?

You can bevel a little more at the centre pettering out toward the ends to give slight curvature.


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## AUSSIE1 (Jun 8, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> There is a hardness tester 10ft. from where I eat my lunch. Better to have a third party do it.
> 
> 
> .



Why? No need for a third party. Have at it.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Any reason for me to save the fragments?



Do you want em analyzed, or not?

If there is to be a thorough analysis of the situation, dig out the fragments for such analysis. But which fragments are you referring to? The piston, I presume?

Any analysis of the situation worth 2 cents by any independent analyst will also require the cylinder -- which is where I put my bets on the failure of the piston in the first place. Asymmetrical cylinder condition by reason of either extreme modification pushing tolerances beyond acceptable, or general material weakness of the cylinder itself as has been otherwise attributed to the piston, or a combination of both.

The piston was an aftermarket piston. How many others of the same specific type/batch/brand (whatever) from whomever have committed such spectacular suicide in such spectacular fashion in non-modified cylinders? Hell, how about the same question relative to OEM pistons? Seems like a fair question to me.

My guess is the piston disintegration was simply a symptom of a major cylinder problem out of the gate before there was even any gas put in the tank or a spark put to the combustion chamber.

Your independent analysts are gonna wanna see both the piston remains AND the cylinder for any reasonable assessment of whatever it is they are
being expected to evaluate. Some specification and criteria there will also be required to establish what it is the independent expert is even attempting to analyze.

All the above stated, I know a very high-end physics prof at Oberlin College who is very pro-active in many areas of research from cable box power consumption to solar energy stuff to core drilling into landfills for methane recovery to whatever floats his boat and gets him going -- who also has tons of global research connections from NASA to MIT, and is a bit of a chainsaw enthusiast on a backyard level.

Want me to ask him if he'll look into Brad's blown up fragments and Gregg's pistons on an actual scientific level - you know, with material comparisons and facts and stuff?

Didn't think so. 

As you were.

opcorn:

Poge


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 8, 2010)

real testing that will generate meaningful results costs money. I would think the manufacturer would be the one to try and figure this out. However, if they are the kind of outfit that uses an unknown mix of scrap metal to cast pistons then how can they possibly know what the problem is? If they don't even care what the alloy was to begin with then how can they diagnose a problem with that alloy?


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## HARRY BARKER (Jun 8, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> real testing that will generate meaningful results costs money.


I thought that was real testing......it failed.

test over.


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## Grande Dog (Jun 8, 2010)

Howdy,
Sounds like the guy knows how to eat with a knife and fork. If he wants to do it for a nominal fee, or for free, I'll send him all he can stand.
Regards
Gregg


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## wigglesworth (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I don't have a Rockwell hardness tester (yet), otherwise I'd love to help.



I do...but...



Tzed250 said:


> There is a hardness tester 10ft. from where I eat my lunch. Better to have a third party do it.



I agree with Tzed, it would be better to have a third party do it, get some good analytical facts, not just my word on it.


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## mowoodchopper (Jun 8, 2010)

Gee, those aftermarket BB kits sure are sweet, and cheap too. I think Ill run out and buy one for all my saws, maybe itll make the old German junk run better. LMAO 

You can buy them books but you cant make them learn. Ever wonder why your stihl dealer, insist on stihl OEM parts, or why the local Ford dealer insist on motorcraft instead of napa? I dont!!!!! LOL

Did anyone's Grandad tell you, ya get what ya pay for?


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## edisto (Jun 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> So you think the upper transfer port was too wide and too square, and it snagged a ring on the downstroke ?
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> ...



I didn't say it was too wide, I said there is not enough curvature in the expanded portion for the width. Widening is fine, to a point, but the wider you go the more careful you have to be about easing the rings back into the cylinder.



mtngun said:


> It is easy to say the port should be less square, but...... few of us have an angle grinder to sculpt transfers.



If I couldn't get the shape right, I wouldn't be widening...



mtngun said:


> The only other preventative suggestion I can offer, is to run a new top end in stock form for a few tanks of gas before porting. I don't always have the patience to do that, but, if it had been done in this case, it would have made troubleshooting so much easier.



Excellent point. It's easier to work on a new cylinder, but in addition to finding out if it's going to crater on you, you can evaluate the improvements you make if you run it stock or blueprinted first.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 8, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Gee, those aftermarket BB kits sure are sweet, and cheap too. I think Ill run out and buy one for all my saws, maybe itll make the old German junk run better. LMAO
> 
> You can buy them books but you cant make them learn. Ever wonder why your stihl dealer, insist on stihl OEM parts, or why the local Ford dealer insist on motorcraft instead of napa? I dont!!!!! LOL
> 
> Did anyone's Grandad tell you, ya get what ya pay for?




To me the top end is a part of interest, but not the suspect...


.


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## woodguy105 (Jun 8, 2010)

Dayummm...That engine is Fubar with a capital F.


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## Fish (Jun 8, 2010)

Seems to me the thread has 2 extra variables.

One variable is: What initiated the failure?

The other is: Did the piston construction initiate it?

OK, more variables: Was the "grenading" exclusive to the aftermarket
cyl/assy?/

Was the failure exclusive?

Would a ring/skirt catching cause that catrostrophic of a failure if it was
Oem?

Woiuld the failure have occurred if it was oem?

My contention from the onset, is that if it was oem, the piston would have
not "grenaded" like that, no matter what initiated the failure.

But that is another "variable".

The modifications the original poster may have done to the assy., that is another very big, complicated variable as well........

Finding an "independant" "objective" party would be hard to find, as the variables are too numerous to even contemplate.

But that is me.

If you found a party to test the metal, and it was found "pourous", what would that say?

Or hard on one side? But the ring clipped a port, the specs were way off,
etc..

Too many variables....

And Brad wants to throw away the gravel!!!!!!

Don't you all watch motorsag csi???????


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## parrisw (Jun 8, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Gee, those aftermarket BB kits sure are sweet, and cheap too. I think Ill run out and buy one for all my saws, maybe itll make the old German junk run better. LMAO
> 
> You can buy them books but you cant make them learn. Ever wonder why your stihl dealer, insist on stihl OEM parts, or why the local Ford dealer insist on motorcraft instead of napa? I dont!!!!! LOL
> 
> Did anyone's Grandad tell you, ya get what ya pay for?



Do you work on cars for a living? Probably not. OEM in car market doesn't mean chit!! In domestic anyway. My brother has a 07 ranger with 60,000km on it and it now needs a $700 repair, outa warranty.


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## parrisw (Jun 9, 2010)

Fish said:


> Seems to me the thread has 2 extra variables.
> 
> One variable is: What initiated the failure?
> 
> ...



I agree, everybody can sit here and take their best guess, cause that's all it is. You'll just never know 100% what caused it, and if you think your 100% sure, then well, you can't be helped.


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## Arrowhead (Jun 9, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I agree, everybody can sit here and take their best guess, cause that's all it is. You'll just never know 100% what caused it, and if you think your 100% sure, then well, you can't be helped.



:agree2: Even testing pieces won't tell "exactly" why....


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 9, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Do you work on cars for a living? Probably not. OEM in car market doesn't mean chit!! In domestic anyway. My brother has a 07 ranger with 60,000km on it and it now needs a $700 repair, outa warranty.



this is true. I worked in automotive and industrial cooling systems for years. 

Honda oem radiators? Bulletproof. last darn near forever

Chev oem rads?.......always recommend the aftermarket options! 

Quality is quality no matter what the name on it. My brother worked as a partsman for years. They used to call the white box brake pads 'family killer specials' 

The alloy that these kits are cast from still bugs me. Alluminum alloys vary greatly. There is a huge range of how cast aluminum could perform depending on what the composition is. I ordered a BB kit and I will run it without worry due to Bailey's warranty and top notch customer service but it kind of makes me wonder. I do really appreciate the info from Gregg on this though. It is nice to have the straight poop on the subject.


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## shawn022 (Jun 9, 2010)

I remember watching Dirty jobs with Mike Rowe awhile back and he was working in a scrap yard. They were sorting through aluminum and using a hand held "gun" to determine the alloy of the aluminum. Better alloy better money. Maybe call a few recycling yards and see if anyone has a piece of equipment like this.


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## Justsaws (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Pretty close. I believe it fractured the botoms of the pin bosses at the same time.
> 
> 
> .



I can see that. I think that the piston became the dreaded hot dog in a hallway after five minutes of warm up at idle. The sloppy fit of the piston was compromised by the elongation of the port. 

If the P/C were not modified they would still be functional until the piston roof started banging on the cylinder.

That particular piston has some issues but it was the modification that killed the saw.

BS, interesting thread, thanks for putting it out there. If you want it tested you should save as much as possible including the cylinder.

Grande Dog, you are a generous sponsor. Thanks for playing a long.


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## belgian (Jun 9, 2010)

Fish said:


> Too many variables....



I agree with Fish. Analyzing that piston requires a lot of sophisticated test equipment. Hardness testing alone will learn you very little, you'll need a Spektrolab to analyse its composition, and several cuts to analyse defects in the casting, porosity, etc.

And you need to compare the results with OEM to be able to make a judgement. Casting technology is not everyone's specialty either.

And one bird does not mean spring...it could be a bad egg in the lot, and that doesn't mean much if a ring hung up...

bad things happen.


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## willysmn (Jun 9, 2010)

*Destroyed engine*

My two cents is this<
Its always difficult to know what happend first as you guys have said and I do better if I have the parts in my hands, although the photos are real good. Given that, I think the ring caught on the way down and ripped off the part of the piston top above the top groove. Then that piece went thru the engine until it blocked the piston skirt on its way down which broke the skirt and caused the wrist pin to pull out of the piston. Or The piston could have made a few more revolutions after the skirt broke and all those pieces could have blocked the downward motion of the piston and pulled the wrist pin out.

I've seen a 4 cyl airplane engine (old one) where one sleeve got loose and moved down where the top ring popped out at TDC and then ripped half the piston top off above the ring, with the other 3 cyls making power. I've also seen lots of incidents where steel parts go thru a 2 cycle and make nice grooves in the cylinder walls and piston sides. I'm sure you guys have too. 

So I don't buy the piston skirt breaking under side load. The load is applied thru the wrist pin and the piston is thicker and stronger in that area than at the thin skirt area, where its feels much less load. The skirts on hi performance Chevy pistons are just a tang and are there to keep the piston centered. the piston rides on the rings and the two skirt tangs. Modern automotive pistons are not round but oval


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Not that it particularly matters, but the wrist pin did no pull out of the piston.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Here's a shot I don't think I posted before. This shot leads me to believe damage was happening before the big crunch. IMHO, one big catastrophic crunch would not have yields so many ground up fine piece.







This piston didn't just break, it exploded!


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## Mastermind (Jun 9, 2010)

This has been a great read for me Brad, good on you for posting this. After all the grief you have taken you still have balls enough to post something like this.

I drag raced for several years and spent two years learning to be a automotive tech, I've also taken two different small engine courses. I've been wrenching for several years and have seen lots of imploded engines. 

I can't sit here at this computer and tell what happened to your engine. I will say things happen fast at 8 grand. 

I would love to see some comparisons between oem and aftermarket alloys.

For me, I love to try new and different things, I tend to skate out there on the edge, and I'm sure you are the same way. This being your own saw you may have pushed the limits a bit on the porting, only you can know that for sure. But if you're gonna make an omelet, ya gotta break a few eggs. 

Keep up the good work Brad. Thanks again for sharing this with us.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> This has been a great read for me Brad, good on you for posting this. After all the grief you have taken you still have balls enough to post something like this.



Tain't no thing man. I consider you guys my friends. Not only did I figure we could learn something from this, *I knew you guys would love the carnage*, lol


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## Mastermind (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Tain't no thing man. I consider you guys my friends. Not only did I figure we could learn something from this, *I knew you guys would love the carnage*, lol



In those thirteen pages of reading I learned a lot about the guys who were posting, for the most part there are some great folks here...but there are some others...


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Good news. I have a good friend that saw this thread and has offered to do a particle analysis for free. This will tell us the *exact *composition of the alloy. He'll be using a Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t, LINK, LINK. I'm going to send along a couple other pistons as well for comparison: 7900BB, NWP 372, and a Mahle 6400.


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## 7oaks (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Good news. I have a good friend that saw this thread and has offered to do a particle analysis for free. This will tell us the *exact *composition of the alloy. He'll be using a Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t, LINK, LINK. I'm going to send along a couple other pistons as well for comparison: 7900BB, NWP 372, and a Mahle 6400.



That's great. Though it won't be the end all of the OEM vs non-OEM parts debate it should help a lot of us make decisions on what we purchase in the future and add some scientific data to the debate.

Thanks to you and to your friend!


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I just got off the phone with him, and this piece of equipment costs >$40,000


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jun 9, 2010)

Here's a bit I found on the web about piston materials: 

Bill Miller Engineering Pistons are made with forged, 2618-T61 aluminum. BME has used 2618 for almost 25 years because Bill Miller believes it to be the best choice when strength and durability are prime considerations. 


Many other piston manufacturers use a silicon-aluminum alloy, such as 4032 or MS75. Pistons made from those have good wear characteristics because the silicon particulate's hardness improves the piston skirt's durability, however silicon is, also, their downfall because it makes pistons brittle. Through race track testing, BME found that silicon-aluminum alloys are prone to fracturing when subjected to extreme loads. 

This gets worse. With pistons made of brittle, silicon-aluminum alloys, once a crack starts; it doesn’t stop until the piston suffers a catastrophic failure. In the rare case of a crack in a BME, 2618-T61 piston, once the crack reaches an area of lower stress; it stops, making immediate failure less likely.


Here's the link where I got it from: BME Forged Aluminum racing pistons

I thought it might be an interesting read for this group. What I copied was about 2/3 down the page.


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Good news. I have a good friend that saw this thread and has offered to do a particle analysis for free. This will tell us the *exact *composition of the alloy. He'll be using a Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t, LINK, LINK. I'm going to send along a couple other pistons as well for comparison: 7900BB, NWP 372, and a Mahle 6400.



Perfect! 

Thanks for doin this Brad


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Good news. I have a good friend that saw this thread and has offered to do a particle analysis for free. This will tell us the *exact *composition of the alloy. He'll be using a Thermo Scientific Niton XL3t, LINK, LINK. I'm going to send along a couple other pistons as well for comparison: 7900BB, NWP 372, and a Mahle 6400.



Don't you think an equally important comparison of composition should be done on a small batch of each manufacturer's products to possibly also shed some light on their manufacturing QC (or lack thereof)? There's bound to be differences between the different manufacturer's pistons themselves, but what about in the manufacturer's own same line of piston? 

Seems like that could be as potentially revealing as any other tests, though might be a bit more cumbersome of a task than your friend would be willing to get into under the circumstances.

Just thinking out loud since Gregg offered bunches of pistons for analysis.

Poge


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Here's a shot I don't think I posted before. This shot leads me to believe damage was happening before the big crunch. IMHO, one big catastrophic crunch would not have yields so many ground up fine piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great pics Brad. 

The pics we haven't seen yet are the before and after photos of how much the piston windows were cut. May we see those please?




.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Great pics Brad.
> 
> The pics we haven't seen yet are the before and after photos of how much the piston windows were cut. May we see those please?



I honestly don't have any. I did not go crazy lightening the piston. It didn't need a lot. I've taken much more off pistons in the past. The windows were already nice and open. I did ramp the area from the bottom side of the crown to the top of window. I think you can get a pretty good idea from some of the pics in the first few posts.


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## gink595 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Time for a little CSI sleuthing. What happened to my saw?
> 
> This is my new MS440 *I was preparing a little GTG surprise, and got a REAL surprise myself! * This is a 046BB that I ported and installed today. I relieved the crankcase for the piston skirts, slotted the base mounting holes, ported it, and had it back together running. I fired it up, tuned the L a little, and let it set on the ground idling for about 5 minutes. I then walked over, blipped the throttle, and BAMMMMMM. It was barely above idle when this happened. She made the most aweful sound and locked up. There was no wondering about this one! I pulled the topend, and this is what I found.
> 
> I'm not 100% what failed, so your input is appreciated.



You weren't making a cheater saw were you


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> You weren't making a cheater saw were you



Can I keep a secret, lol?


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> You weren't making a cheater saw were you



Woods ported work saw.




.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> You weren't making a cheater saw were you





Tzed250 said:


> Woods ported work saw.



Are you suggesting I'd do anything to beat your 7900:greenchainsaw:


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## gink595 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Are you suggesting I'd do anything to beat your 7900:greenchainsaw:



I can believe that you would, I just don't know if you'll get it done:greenchainsaw:


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> I can believe that you would, I just don't know if you'll get it done:greenchainsaw:



It would be worth the effort to beat THAT saw

BTW, are you going to be at this GTG?


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## gink595 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It would be worth the effort to beat THAT saw
> 
> BTW, are you going to be at this GTG?



No I won't be able to make this trip, not sure how many I will be able to attend this summer.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> No I won't be able to make this trip, not sure how many I will be able to attend this summer.



Did you go and get your wife pregnant again too, lol?


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## gink595 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Did you go and get your wife pregnant again too, lol?



NO thank God! It was someone else's wife....LOL


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

gink595 said:


> NO thank God! It was someone else's wife....LOL



You made me laugh out loud for real!


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## Tohya (Jun 9, 2010)

My 2 cents.

With the large number of tiny dings and only about 3 larger dings (in any area). 

I think it may have started with a casting flaw in the piston skirt. But if it did, the first few pieces to break off got ground up, so it would be very hard to locate the flaw in the little bit that remain.

The top of the piston looks like it broke out at least twice, one big chunk then two smaller ones. The transfer port looks like a small piece got stuck between it and the rings.


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## gink595 (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah I kinda chuckled while I wrote that

This summer might prove to be one of my busiest yet at work. That and I've already traveled to South Carolina for Timberfest and a month later went to PA for a GTG, unless they are reasonably close I won't be able to make to many... Would love to go to Kentucky. There might be a GTG organized near me by another member, we were talking about it the other day when he stopped out to show off his new toy.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

Brad,

Just a question. Were there any modifications to the base of the cylinder and were there any witness marks you could see on the crank throws?

Jerry


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Sprintcar said:


> Brad,
> 
> Just a question. Were there any modifications to the base of the cylinder and were there any witness marks you could see on the crank throws?
> 
> Jerry



No mods were made to the base of the cylinder. There for a sec, you had me freaking that I had use the OEM 440 gasket, but I did not use a gasket at all. I used sealant and squish was .024.

I don't recall any witness marks on the crank, but can't verify that since it's now back together. It turned over smooth before starting up.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

In looking at the photographs again it appears to be impact damage on the skirt. One would need to do an in-depth analysis of all the remains of the piston to determine the original fracture point. If the saw has no other issues with the OEM parts reinstalled all this is a moot point and the underlying cause could be a bad forging. I have seen small block chevrolet pistons that appear the same as your example that had contacted the crank throws.

Great thread.

Jerry


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I sure wish I could check out the crank right now. I will comment that the skirts are way shorter on the 046BB piston than the 440 piston, making contact seem unlikely. That would sure snap a skirt off though.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> *Do I build the fastest saws? Of course not. I know nothing about building a true race saw. That's not what I do. *
> 
> I know that's a long answer for a simple question, but thought I'd lay my cards on the table. Hopefully it'll clear up some questions that may be floating around.










blsnelling said:


> It would be worth the effort to beat THAT saw
> 
> BTW, are you going to be at this GTG?


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Yes, I would love to beat a saw built by a guy that builds race saws I've done it couple times, and it is fun. But I don't expect to be beating Gink's 7900 anytime soon


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Yes, I would love to beat a saw built by a guy that builds race saws I've done it couple times, and it is fun. But I don't expect to be beating Gink's 7900 anytime soon



You could always borrow my 7900, you'd at least give him a run, well maybe.:spam:oke:


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> You could always borrow my 7900, you'd at least give him a run, well maybe.:spam:oke:



I'd take you up on that if he was going to be at the GTG


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Any reason for me to save the fragments? I've already thrown them in the garbage, but could dig them out. I have the main part of the piston saved though.



For the wall of shame...... That's what I do with my broken parts, etc. It's getting quite crowded there now...lol.

Thanks for sharing the story Brad so we can all try and learn a little from it!


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## JJuday (Jun 9, 2010)

One thing you may consider for next time Brad is if you are ever suspicious of another component you could always have it Eddy Current tested for flaws. That works great for checking structural members on aircraft wings ect. If you have a good local A.P with a good Avionics dept. it may be worth a try. We had to have on occasion Duncan Aviation out of Battle Creek, MI test our aircraft as part of routine maintnance. Cessna 402 wing spars are bad for hairline cracks. 

Could you tell by way of a spark test if there was too much silicon as has been suggested? I had a nice picture chart years ago that showed specific spark patterns of different materials. If this is possible, I got mine at a local welding shop. JJuday


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 9, 2010)

JJuday said:


> One thing you may consider for next time Brad is if you are ever suspicious of another component you could always have it Eddy Current tested for flaws. That works great for checking structural members on aircraft wings ect. If you have a good local A.P with a good Avionics dept. it may be worth a try. We had to have on occasion Duncan Aviation out of Battle Creek, MI test our aircraft as part of routine maintnance. Cessna 402 wing spars are bad for hairline cracks.
> 
> Could you tell by way of a spark test if there was too much silicon as has been suggested? I had a nice picture chart years ago that showed specific spark patterns of different materials. If this is possible, I got mine at a local welding shop. JJuday



aluminum doesn't spark. you are thinking of a chart that shows basic composition of carbon and tool steels


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

You guys talked me into it. I went garbage bin diving for piston shrapnel. I glued together what I could to perhaps give us a better idea what happened. Give it a few minutes and it'll be available in HD where you can see better detail.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WmccuGo4J-s&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WmccuGo4J-s&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## JJuday (Jun 9, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> aluminum doesn't spark. you are thinking of a chart that shows basic composition of carbon and tool steels



Yeah, I forgot that. Scratch that last part. JJuday


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## MR.STIHL036 (Jun 9, 2010)

I think that the saw was running to lean. too bad ms440s are good saws hop that you can fix it


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## AUSSIE1 (Jun 9, 2010)

Brad, what I noticed in the vid at 1.00 to 1.15 you can see where you have ground at the inside of the piston around where it is normally built up for the ring pins and land. It looks like the grinding has met the pin bore. Around here has been a concern to me with grinding as I have felt it possible to weaken this area.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

Sorry Brad, I've got to go with my gut on this one. It appears to be impact damage. Get the saw back and measure the OEM skirt against the BB 046 piston skirt. In looking at the remains of that piston and the intake side skirt, it looks like high RPM crank counter weight damage.

Just my WAFG on this, but thats what it looks like to me.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I remove a fair amount tapering the windows, which often uncovers the pin. In between the windows, on the bottom side, I only smooth out casting imperfections.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Sprintcar said:


> Sorry Brad, I've got to go with my gut on this one. It appears to be impact damage. Get the saw back and measure the OEM skirt against the BB 046 piston skirt. In looking at the remains of that piston and the intake side skirt, it looks like high RPM crank counter weight damage.
> 
> Just my WAFG on this, but thats what it looks like to me.



The skirt is way shorter than a 440 piston. I've got a Wiseco 440 piston and a aftermarket 460 piston I'll compare it to.

It definately wasn't high RPMs. This was the first startup of a new topend and was only being heat cycled. It saw no WOT or H tuning, only a couple mild blips of the throttle.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> The skirt is way shorter than a 440 piston. I've got a Wiseco 440 piston and a aftermarket 460 piston I'll compare it to.
> 
> It definately wasn't high RPMs. This was the first startup of a new topend and was only being heat cycled. It saw no WOT or H tuning, only a couple mild blips of the throttle.



Then it had to be a flaw in the piston around the wrist pin bosses. The good race car engine builders are using dye penetrate and other non-destructive inspections on both pistons, wrist pins and rods at each engine shop visit. You would be amazed as to what that will show in micro fractures.

Great thread, thanks for starting it.


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## ironman_gq (Jun 9, 2010)

Is it possible that the locating pin loosened up after the bore was uncovered for some reason, maybe a casing flaw? That might allow the ring to spin like it had and drop an end into a port. It does look a lot like the bottom ring caught first judging by how badly the lands are broken up between the rings.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I greatly appreciate yours, and everyone's, input.

In the picture below are the 046BB on the left, Wiseco 440 in the middle, and white box aftermarket 460 on the right. The measure left to right respectively, 1.440", 1.555", 1.556".


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

ironman_gq said:


> Is it possible that the locating pin loosened up after the bore was uncovered for some reason, maybe a casing flaw? That might allow the ring to spin like it had and drop an end into a port. It does look a lot like the bottom ring caught first judging by how badly the lands are broken up between the rings.



Neither locating pin is out of pisition.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

Are all the wrist pin compression heights the same? I would measure from the base of the skirt to the center of the wrist pin boss and compare the three.

Jerry


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

The way the pin bosses are fractured shows that only a force perpendicular to the fracture line could have caused the break. The only thing that is above the pin bosses that could have applied such force is the wrist pin. 

Nobody has mentioned the difference between a four-stroke and two-stroke piston. The pin bosses on a 4T piston have to accept loads from above and below. The above forces come from compression and combustion. The forces from below are the negative acceleration near TDC on the exhaust stroke. 

The 2T piston on the other hand does not ever see the decel loads near TDC, as it is always in the compression phase at this point. The lower area of the pin bosses on a 2T piston can be made very thin as no significant loading should normally take place in this zone. The pin bosses were fractured because loads were applied to the bottom of the pin bosses when the ring hung in the port. The pin did not have to leave the pin bores, it only had to apply enough force to cause plastic deformation of the metal. Castings will take very little strain before fracture. 



.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> The way the pin bosses are fractured shows that only a force perpendicular to the fracture line could have caused the break. The only thing that is above the pin bosses that could have applied such force is the wrist pin.
> 
> Nobody has mentioned the difference between a four-stroke and two-stroke piston. The pin bosses on a 4T piston have to accept loads from above and below. The above forces come from compression and combustion. The forces from below are the negative acceleration near TDC on the exhaust stroke.
> 
> ...



Very interesting and enlightening post. I do agree that at some point the ring hung in the intake. That's when the skirt was busted off, along with the pin bosses, as the piston travelled up. But I'm still not convinced that's where it started. I still think it started near the transfer, damage was done that then allowed the ring to fall into the intake. Just a theory though.


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## Sprintcar (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> The way the pin bosses are fractured shows that only a force perpendicular to the fracture line could have caused the break. The only thing that is above the pin bosses that could have applied such force is the wrist pin.
> 
> Nobody has mentioned the difference between a four-stroke and two-stroke piston. The pin bosses on a 4T piston have to accept loads from above and below. The above forces come from compression and combustion. The forces from below are the negative acceleration near TDC on the exhaust stroke.
> 
> ...



Excellent analysis.


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## Zombiechopper (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> The way the pin bosses are fractured shows that only a force perpendicular to the fracture line could have caused the break. The only thing that is above the pin bosses that could have applied such force is the wrist pin.
> 
> Nobody has mentioned the difference between a four-stroke and two-stroke piston. The pin bosses on a 4T piston have to accept loads from above and below. The above forces come from compression and combustion. The forces from below are the negative acceleration near TDC on the exhaust stroke.
> 
> ...



This makes the most sense of anything I've read in this thread thus far. I am not an engine guru but this logic really seems clear.


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## Brian13 (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree with Sprintcar that the skirt shattered on the down stroke. I just have no idea what it hit. I would think if it hit the crank both skirts would receive similar if not the same damage. And I definitely think the ,alloy was off, the breakage almost looks like it was cryogenicly froze with all the small shards. Looks to be too brittle to me. I would think there would have been more deformation and gouging at low rpms. Thats my take anyway, Im by no means an experienced mechanic but thats what I see with my limited understanding. Thanks for taking the time to post all the pics Brad.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Very interesting and enlightening post. I do agree that at some point the ring hung in the intake. That's when the skirt was busted off, along with the pin bosses, as the piston travelled up. But I'm still not convinced that's where it started. I still think it started near the transfer, damage was done that then allowed the ring to fall into the intake. Just a theory though.



The ring was hung in the intake when the fractured rear section of the piston was pushed down and into the intake. A ring failure may be the root cause. Remember that rings are castings also.




.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> ...This allowed the ring end to drop into the intake port. As the piston moved back up, the lower ring caught on the top of the intake port, and broke the entire skirt off.



I've said since post #26 that I believe the lower ring dropped into the intake port. It then caught the *top* of the port as the piston moved *up*. There's nothing for the ring to catch on on the way down on the intake port. Also, that would be the opposite force requred to strip the skirt off the piston. The wrist pin was pushing up, the ring stopped at the top of the intake port, and the skirt popped right off, taking the pin bosses with it.

If this were the only damage, that would be the end of the story, IMHO. But there's that big chunk that was broken off the *top *of the piston. It broke off as the piston was moving *down*. After carefully lining up the piston in the bore, I believe this happened first, and then allowed the ring to drop into the port.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> The ring was hung in the intake when the fractured rear section of the piston was pushed down and into the intake. A ring failure may be the root cause. Remember that rings are castings also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Say again? I didn't quite follow that.

Wouldn't that be something if it were a ring failure, lol! And here I used Caber rings instead of those that came with the kit, which I've never had a problem with, lol.


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 9, 2010)

In the video I see a long fracture under the bottom ring near the ring pin, it looks different than any of the other pieces, it looks more like it was ripped apart rather than bent.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

TZed, after reading again, I think we're agreeing, just saying it differently. No? You believe the ring caught as the piston moved up, stripping the skirt off the piston?


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

.


Another thing to think about for those wondering about all the crumbled pieces. 

Brad stated the the saw was coming back to idle or was at idle when the failure occurred. With a normal saw idle of ~2500RPM if the saw only continued to rotate for another 1/4 of a second that is an additional 10 revolutions. Plenty of time to make crumbles. 


.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> In the video I see a long fracture under the bottom ring near the ring pin, it looks different than any of the other pieces, it looks more like it was ripped apart rather than bent.



That's where the entire skirt was ripped off as the piston went up, and left the skirt behind.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> Another thing to think about for those wondering about all the crumbled pieces.
> ...



The saw was idling, probably 2800 RPM, I blipped the throttle, so maybe 3500-4500 RPMs? I guess a few RPMs do happen in a hurry don't they.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> TZed, after reading again, I think we're agreeing, just saying it differently. No? You believe the ring caught as the piston moved up, stripping the skirt off the piston?



The main force was applied when the ring caught in the transfer on the way to BDC. This popped the section off of the crown, and fractured the pin bores. Once the pin bores were cracked the rear section of the piston was shoved into the intake. On the upstroke the rear section of the piston was left behind, then turned into bits on the next revolution.


.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I greatly appreciate yours, and everyone's, input.
> 
> In the picture below are the 046BB on the left, Wiseco 440 in the middle, and white box aftermarket 460 on the right. The measure left to right respectively, 1.440", 1.555", 1.556".



Why is there such a big difference in the piston height's? Did it free port at TDC? Looks almost like the wrong piston or something???


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> The saw was idling, probably 2800 RPM, I blipped the throttle, so maybe 3500-4500 RPMs? I guess a few RPMs do happen in a hurry don't they.



Imagine an 18,000rpm F1 engine...


.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> The main force was applied when the ring caught in the transfer on the way to BDC. This popped the section off of the crown, and fractured the pin bores. Once the pin bores were cracked the rear section of the piston was shoved into the intake. On the upstroke the rear section of the piston was left behind, then turned into bits on the next revolution.
> 
> 
> .



I'll entirely buy that. But it still blows my mind that I could have caught a ring in the transfer! Anything's possible though in the world of mods.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Imagine an 18,000rpm F1 engine...
> 
> 
> .



Can you say, "*complete disintigration*"!!!


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Why is there such a big difference in the piston height's? Did it free port at TDC? Looks almost like the wrong piston or something???



That's typical for the BB kits. They do this for case clearance. It did not freeport at TDC, although it was very close. This was a problem with ealier 066BB kits, but that has been rectified as well.


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> That's where the entire skirt was ripped off as the piston went up, and left the skirt behind.



Correct. Isn't that a bit abnormal? I agree the ring did catch, but what happened first? I'm starting to think there was a hairline fracture that was opening up more and more as the piston was going up and down, this could allow the ring to possibly spin around the pin momentarily. It's just a thought.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'll entirely buy that. But it still blows my mind that I could have caught a ring in the transfer! Anything's possible though in the world of mods.



It does not take much Brad. You know how much force it takes to put bearings in a case half. That is a .001 or .0015 interference fit. Now imagine the ring in one of the ports .001 too far. 


.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Correct. Isn't that a bit abnormal? I agree the ring did catch, but what happened first? I'm starting to think there was a hairline fracture that was opening up more and more as the piston was going up and down, this could allow the ring to possibly spin around the pin momentarily. It's just a thought.



Yes, something abnormal happened, as the saw started and ran. It just fell off of the wrong side of the razor.


.


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Yes, something abnormal happened, as the saw started and ran. It just fell off of the wrong side of the razor.
> 
> 
> .


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## edisto (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'll entirely buy that. But it still blows my mind that I could have caught a ring in the transfer! Anything's possible though in the world of mods.



You just have to increase the radius of the corners more when you increase the width.


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## Mastermind (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I've said since post #26 that I believe the lower ring dropped into the intake port. It then caught the *top* of the port as the piston moved *up*. There's nothing for the ring to catch on on the way down on the intake port. Also, that would be the opposite force requred to strip the skirt off the piston. The wrist pin was pushing up, the ring stopped at the top of the intake port, and the skirt popped right off, taking the pin bosses with it.
> 
> If this were the only damage, that would be the end of the story, IMHO. But there's that big chunk that was broken off the *top *of the piston. It broke off as the piston was moving *down*. After carefully lining up the piston in the bore, I believe this happened first, and then allowed the ring to drop into the port.



:agree2:


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I think we may have the smoking gun here. You can't hardly see this stuff by must looking at it normally. It takes a very bright light, and the magnification of a picture to bring it into view. This is a shot I've been wanting to get, and I think it may prove some theories.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I think we may have the smoking gun here. You can't hardly see this stuff by must looking at it normally. It takes a very bright light, and the magnification of a picture to bring it into view. This is a shot I've been wanting to get, and I think it may prove some theories.
> 
> ]



That is where it all started. Finding _why_ it started there will show the root cuase of the problem. Once the root cuase is determined then a countermeasure is put into place. 

A_ Failure Mode and Effect Analysis _ (FMEA) is designed to prevent these things from happening in the first place. 

Dealing with the QA section of Toyota Industrial Equipment Manufacturing for quite a while will set you on a path of righteousness...


.


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## Andyshine77 (Jun 9, 2010)

Looks like it was scuffing a bit before it finely caught.


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## blsnelling (Jun 9, 2010)

I thought that real bright edge was a ring snag. Upon closer inspection, the other side looks the same way. That's actually the factory bevel that was polished with 600 grit paper. I still believe it started here though. I give up trying to figure this out, lol. No, that wouldn't be any fun. This has been a blast trying to figure this out


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## Mike PA (Jun 10, 2010)

I should have posted this yesterday and after seeing the vid, it really looks like the chunk from the top of the piston happened first (see the compression lines? These happened as the top failed, not after), most likely as a result of the ring catching. So, the piston was on the down stroke when the failure started, popped the chunk off the top and broke the skirt, then the lower ring caught on the way up and broke that portion of the piston. I think you can see where one break is truncated by the other in the earlier pics, which indicates which happened first.

I think in the set of pics, that the ring snag is evident, as there is a v-shaped crevice that formed from a force in the direction of the "v", or on the downstroke. That should be where the ring caught the hardest and had the most force. This occurred on the downstroke, breaking the pin bosses. What I am not sure of with this is the displacement of the metal, as the side away from the "crevice" is lower, which suggested that the failure started on that side. However, the cracks that formed from the original impact may have allowed a lesser force to cause more displacement on the other side on a later stroke.

I think this is the same as what Tzed is saying, I just wish I had said it yesterday when I looked at this, but I wasn't confident enough to say it. I hadn't noticed the compression lines on the top of the piston before the vid, which was a very good quality.


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## andrethegiant70 (Jun 10, 2010)

That's one seriously amazing failure. It's really a tribute to the integrity of the saw that it's up and running again. Sounds like you got some knowledge out of it. Great pictures!


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## Tzed250 (Jun 10, 2010)

Mike PA said:


> I should have posted this yesterday and after seeing the vid, it really looks like the chunk from the top of the piston happened first (see the compression lines? These happened as the top failed, not after), most likely as a result of the ring catching. So, the piston was on the down stroke when the failure started, popped the chunk off the top and broke the skirt, then the lower ring caught on the way up and broke that portion of the piston. I think you can see where one break is truncated by the other in the earlier pics, which indicates which happened first.
> 
> I think in the set of pics, that the ring snag is evident, as there is a v-shaped crevice that formed from a force in the direction of the "v", or on the downstroke. That should be where the ring caught the hardest and had the most force. This occurred on the downstroke, breaking the pin bosses. What I am not sure of with this is the displacement of the metal, as the side away from the "crevice" is lower, which suggested that the failure started on that side. However, the cracks that formed from the original impact may have allowed a lesser force to cause more displacement on the other side on a later stroke.
> 
> I think this is the same as what Tzed is saying, I just wish I had said it yesterday when I looked at this, but I wasn't confident enough to say it. I hadn't noticed the compression lines on the top of the piston before the vid, which was a very good quality.







Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> Looks to me like it hung a ring on the way down. No matter what that happened, the evidence is the top land blown off. Circlips _usually_ don't cause that much damage.#
> ...





You might notice I was saying it three days ago...




.


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## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> You might notice I was saying it three days ago...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And I said basically the same thing within the first hour in post #26


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## edisto (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> And I said basically the same thing within the first hour in post #26



Post 26:


blsnelling said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> The cirlcip came out.



Post 46:


blsnelling said:


> I don't think the transfers are near wide enough to catch a ring. Plus they were beveled after widening.



:monkey:


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## Mike PA (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> And I said basically the same thing within the first hour in post #26



Not quite. You were still on something other than a ring catching. Just sayin - not trying to be critical or anything... You caught up later.

Tzed - Yes, I noticed you were saying that early, but there was still a lot of debate. I didn't read the post 'till yesterday. I know I'm late to party, but I'm just fashionably late. :jester:

Yesterday, I had a whole post laid out that included the law of superposition and decided not to post it. I was taking a slightly different approach to show what happened first.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> The cirlcip came out. As the piston was moving down, it got caught between the piston and transfer bridge, pushing it out and cracking it. At the same time the ring broke, and was pulled around some what. This allowed the ring end to drop into the intake port. As the piston moved back up, the *lower ring caught on the top of the intake port, and broke the entire skirt off.*
> 
> I might be wrong, but this is the only way I can explain everything I see. The only other scenario would have been for the *lower ring to have dropped into the port *on it's own, but I don't believe the port to be wide enough for that to happen.



Right there. I just didn't figure it was a ring that caught the transfer to start the sequence of events.


----------



## edisto (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Right there. I just didn't figure it was a ring that caught the transfer to start the sequence of events.



We just have different interpretations of what "basically the same thing" means.

The main thing is that there appears to be a pretty good consensus as to the sequence of events.

Hopefully next time Tzed's opinion will carry a little more weight than "one of many voices".


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

Now that we believe we know the sequence of events, what else are we going to discuss other than who said it first, lol?


----------



## edisto (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Now that we believe we know the sequence of events, what else are we going to discuss other than who said it first, lol?



We know that too.

We could discuss what kind of video camera you used to shoot that vid.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

I saw it first! I got you last!


----------



## edisto (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I saw it first! I got you last!



Seriously...I have a Canon HG10 that produces excellent quality given the right lighting conditions, and the quality of that video was as good or better.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

edisto said:


> Seriously...I have a Canon HG10 that produces excellent quality given the right lighting conditions, and the quality of that video was as good or better.



I used a Canon HF-S100 for this video. I sometimes use a Canon 7D DSLR for my vids.


----------



## mtngun (Jun 10, 2010)

The alleged smoking gun.






I've been away from this thread for a day or two, so let me try to sum up the conventional wisdom of the moment:

-- majority opinion is that a ring snagged the flywheel side upper transfer on the downstroke ?

-- Edisto thinks the end of the transfer should have been rounded rather than square.

My thoughts and questions on the snagged ring theory:

-- I presume Brad chamfered the bottom edge of the transfer, where the ring allegedy snagged ? Then how did it snag ? Either it was chamfered or it wasn't ? (I can't tell from the pic). In hindsight, do you think it was chamfered ENOUGH ? 

-- the modded end of the transfer is not oval like we'd prefer it to be, but lots of luck sculpting the upper transfer to a perfect shape without an angle grinder.

-- Brad has widened many transfer ports in the past. I presume he modded them more or less the same way he modded this transfer port, yet this is the only failure. What was different about this top end ? My suspicions -- ports perhaps a little wider than usual ? And I'm still suspicious of the piston, based on Brad's comment that it was difficult to cut with a carbide burr.

-- Remember a couple of years ago when there was a rash of broken rings on ported BB kits ? Turned out to be brittle rings. The brittle rings works fine on the stock kit, and only broke when the jug was ported. Point being, even a good porting job makes the rings more likely to snag, and can be the straw that broke the camel's back. 

I'm still suspicious that the piston was brittle or had casting flaws, cuz like I said, Brad's widened many a transfer in a similar manner and this is the only one that has failed.

For laughs, here's a pic of the very first transfer that I ever modded. Like Brad, I used a straight grinder and was unable to make the end of the port oval. However, I accidentally tapered the modded portion of the port floor, which should make life easier on the ring. The modded section also has a decent chamfer. I don't subscribe to the school of thought that says you merely need to knock off the sharp edge of the port.

Dotted line represents the nearly square corner on Brad's modded transfer port.


----------



## edisto (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I used a Canon HF-S100 for this video. I sometimes use a Canon 7D DSLR for my vids.



Pretty similar systems...except that yours has almost 3X the resolution!

I still use film for photos. I have a great slide scanner at the school, and can't afford to switch to digital that would give me the same resolution....especially for my underwater setup.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

mtngun said:


> My thoughts and questions on the snagged ring theory:
> 
> -- I presume Brad chamfered the bottom edge of the transfer, where the ring allegedy snagged ? Then how did it snag ? Either it was chamfered or it wasn't ? (I can't tell from the pic). In hindsight, do you think it was chamfered ENOUGH ?



I've got ports wider than this one, all with the same shape. 

I still don't see what looks like marks of a snagged ring on the bottom of the transfer port. I see marks that looks like something got stuck in there, which also would explain why it's bulged out like it is. There is not a sharp edge on the bottom of the port like there would be if it caught a ring. That would be across the width of the port. It is still smooth except where the gouges are. Maybe a piece of the crown fracture off, fell into the transfer, and then got caught on a subsequent stroke?


----------



## jra1100 (Jun 10, 2010)

Well, now that we have figured this out and moved on to cameras, I'll just say that I prefer Leica.

Great sleuthing by all, and kudos to Tzed for his efforts. None of us will know exactly what happened, but are probably close. Tzed what do you do in real life that gives you experience in blown up engines etc.?

Brad thanks for posting, many would hide it under the bench and never say a word. This was great fun, can't pay for this kind of entertainment. JR


----------



## spacemule (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I've got ports wider than this one, all with the same shape.


I hear some guys who are still around play Russian roulette with two loaded cylinders.


----------



## CHEVYTOWN13 (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Time for a little CSI sleuthing. What happened to my saw?
> 
> I fired it up, tuned the L a little, and let it set on the ground idling for about 5 minutes.



Heard of something similar happen to a fellow AS'r.

Just out of curiosity, was it sitting on asphalt or cement? And did you have the filter and cover off when it was idling?

I can't recall the exact details, other than somehow, it ingested some foreign material while it was idling on the ground. And almost the same thing happened.


----------



## AUSSIE1 (Jun 10, 2010)

How much do people think rings deflect, especially in a port of this size?

I don't see any issue with square ends on a port of this length.

Heavier beveling at the centre compared to the outside will give all the "curve" that's needed.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

CHEVYTOWN13 said:


> Heard of something similar happen to a fellow AS'r.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, was it sitting on asphalt or cement? And did you have the filter and cover off when it was idling?
> 
> I can't recall the exact details, other than somehow, it ingested some foreign material while it was idling on the ground. And almost the same thing happened.



Idling on the grass, filter on. It was in my hands when it crunched.


----------



## BigJ (Jun 10, 2010)

mtngun said:


> -- Brad has widened many transfer ports in the past. I presume he modded them more or less the same way he modded this transfer port, yet this is the only failure. What was different about this top end ? My suspicions --



Bad ring? What would have cased that indentation right in the middle of the transfer..where the middle crack is? Is that a ring width? Seems like there's a matching mark on the piston, but who knows when in the cratering it all went down. A chunk of ring floating about then getting caught and pulled down would explain the transfer bridge getting pushed out like that.

Seems like lots of pointing towards port shape, etc, but if it's "milder" as Brad says then why would that be the cause? 

Bad rings? Overly tight ring gap? Why did it crater when the throttle was blipped? I thought your typical ring hang was at low RPM's?

Just spoutin ideas...

-Desk Jockey


----------



## Tzed250 (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> *The cirlcip came out*. As the piston was moving down, it got caught between the piston and transfer bridge, pushing it out and cracking it. At the same time the ring broke, and was pulled around some what. This allowed the ring end to drop into the* intake port*. As the piston moved back up, the lower ring caught on the top of the intake port, and broke the entire skirt off.
> 
> I might be wrong, but this is the only way I can explain everything I see. The only other scenario would have been for the lower ring to have dropped into the port on it's own, but I don't believe the port to be wide enough for that to happen.



A stretch Brad. The circlip and the intake port were innocent bystanders, the transfer port/ring was the perp. The little gold stars go at the top of the paper...



jra1100 said:


> Well, now that we have figured this out and moved on to cameras, I'll just say that I prefer Leica.
> 
> Great sleuthing by all, and kudos to Tzed for his efforts. None of us will know exactly what happened, but are probably close. Tzed what do you do in real life that gives you experience in blown up engines etc.?
> 
> Brad thanks for posting, many would hide it under the bench and never say a word. This was great fun, can't pay for this kind of entertainment. JR




Well, in real life I am a Master CNC machinist. There were many former lives, but they include being a Production Engineer at a Tier 1 supplier to Toyota Industrial Equipment Manufacturing (TIEM)(Toyota lift trucks). The lives before that included 5 years of owning my own tree service, and more than 10 years spent as a professional motorcycle technician. The PE and bike tech jobs both had me dealing with warranty claims/failure diagnosis. For every warranty claim/defective part from Toyota, a report had to be made by the QA engineer. The QA engineer and I collaborated to provide countermeasures to the failures. As a motorcycle technician, all warranty claims had to include diagnosis. 

The years spent at the racetrack, both as a racer and a mechanic, showed the most failures of high performance engines. As a mechanic for a MX team I saw many blown up engines. 


It has been a long and winding road, but one that has let me see many facets of how the internal combustion engine meshes with our lives. I took my first case reed inducted two-stroke apart and put it back together when i was eight years old(Cox .049...). The fascination has never left me.


.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jun 10, 2010)

BigJ said:


> Bad ring? What would have cased that indentation right in the middle of the transfer..where the middle crack is? Is that a ring width? Seems like there's a matching mark on the piston, but who knows when in the cratering it all went down. A chunk of ring floating about then getting caught and pulled down would explain the transfer bridge getting pushed out like that.
> 
> Seems like lots of pointing towards port shape, etc, but if it's "milder" as Brad says then why would that be the cause?
> 
> ...




What was the ring gap Brad???


.


----------



## blsnelling (Jun 10, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> What was the ring gap Brad???
> 
> 
> .



I didn't write it down, but did check it. I believe it was .012-.013. Again, just a reminder that these were not the rings that came with the BB kit. They were new Caber rings.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jun 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I didn't write it down, but did check it. I believe it was .012-.013. Again, just a reminder that these were not the rings that came with the BB kit. They were new Caber rings.



That would have been plenty. No ring gap will stuff a ring into a port easily!


.


----------



## Fish (Jun 10, 2010)

You boys need to take this out back.....


We love you both, but you need to settle this........

Whoever wins will be "our" new leader.........

Using big words doesn't count...

Well, they do, only if they are spelled correctly.....


----------



## Tzed250 (Jun 10, 2010)

Fish said:


> You boys need to take this out back.....
> 
> 
> We love you both, but you need to settle this........
> ...




Baliff.....wack his peepee.....


.


----------



## wigglesworth (Jun 10, 2010)

Fish said:


> You boys need to take this out back.....
> 
> 
> We love you both, but you need to settle this........
> ...



supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.....do I win???


----------



## wigglesworth (Jun 10, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Baliff.....wack his peepee.....
> 
> 
> .



Ouch....that's not what I win...is it?


----------



## Sprintcar (Jun 10, 2010)

Done, Go see Mandatory Retirement!


----------



## parrisw (Jun 10, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> I took my first case reed inducted two-stroke apart and put it back together when i was eight years old(Cox .049...). The fascination has never left me.
> 
> 
> .



LOL, I bet that was the hardest tear down and rebuild of your Career.


----------



## Zombiechopper (Jun 11, 2010)

Fish said:


> You boys need to take this out back.....
> 
> 
> We love you both, but you need to settle this........
> ...



unrelated to the topic at hand. 
RETIREMENT NOW!!


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## mowoodchopper (Jun 11, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Do you work on cars for a living? Probably not. OEM in car market doesn't mean chit!! In domestic anyway. My brother has a 07 ranger with 60,000km on it and it now needs a $700 repair, outs warranty.



Yes I do, as a matter of fact! And your little story means nothing just chit as you say. A ranger that we have no idea how it has been treated and has a prob at 60.000km who cares. The point is when replacing parts on a car such as fuel pumps, plug wires, brakes, alternators, Have you ever heard all the people say my first fuel pump lasted 100,000 miles then the next 2 only lasted 15000! Bingo! Work on cars everyday for a living and you'll come to trust the quality of oem, we dont use junk aftermarket parts and if the customer buys them and wants us to put them on, no cigar! We dont use anything other than oem.


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## CHEVYTOWN13 (Jun 11, 2010)

*Hounding this Camel Toe Member™ every chance I get because he's a PANOCHA*



mowoodchopper said:


> Yes I do, as a matter of fact! *And your little story means nothing just chit as you say.*



Get 'em Chopper!:greenchainsaw:


----------



## spacemule (Jun 11, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Yes I do, as a matter of fact! And your little story means nothing just chit as you say. A ranger that we have no idea how it has been treated and has a prob at 60.000km who cares. The point is when replacing parts on a car such as fuel pumps, plug wires, brakes, alternators, Have you ever heard all the people say my first fuel pump lasted 100,000 miles then the next 2 only lasted 15000! Bingo! Work on cars everyday for a living and you'll come to trust the quality of oem, we dont use junk aftermarket parts and if the customer buys them and wants us to put them on, no cigar! We dont use anything other than oem.



I'd say it depends on the aftermarket company. But then, the advantage of oem is that you *know* it meets the manufacturer's specifications and it will work right. That's worth a lot when time is money.


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## mowoodchopper (Jun 11, 2010)

spacemule said:


> I'd say it depends on the aftermarket company. But then, the advantage of oem is that you *know* it meets the manufacturer's specifications and it will work right. That's worth a lot when time is money.



 Agreed spacemule, There are high quality aftermarket companies no doubt, like edelbrock for instance not the type companies I was referring to. I was talking about the walk into napa and get the cheapest fuel pump they have type junk.


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## redprospector (Jun 11, 2010)

Yep, OEM is the stuff.
That's probably why I had to put 2 OEM alternator's on my Dodge before I was forced to buy an Autozone cheapie.
The first one lasted about 6000 miles.
The second one only went about 4500 miles. I was out of town, and it was after dark. All those guy's that sell OEM had gone home for the night. So I crippled into the Autozone. I put that alternator on in their parking lot and it's been there ever since (about 50,000 miles).
I put 5 OEM lift pumps on that truck in less than 3 years before I finally went to an aftermarket pump that lasted a lot longer than OEM. Then I finally went to an Airdog.

Now I really don't care much for Autozone. They are a PITA to deal with. But their cheapie re-manufactured alternator has held up 10 times as long as the OEM's.
If OEM was as good as what I'm reading here, there wouldn't be any vehicle breakdown's or re-call's.

Andy


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## outdoorlivin247 (Jun 11, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Agreed spacemule, There are high quality aftermarket companies no doubt, like edelbrock for instance not the type companies I was referring to. I was talking about the walk into napa and get the cheapest fuel pump they have type junk.



It's funny you mention NAPA and fuel pump...Most of the NAPA pumps are reboxed Delphi and Bosch, which are the same manufactuars that OE use...

I will agree that not all aftermarket is good, but there is a lot of parts out there that are the same or even better that are sold under different badges...


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## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep, OEM is the stuff.
> That's probably why I had to put 2 OEM alternator's on my Dodge before I was forced to buy an Autozone cheapie.
> The first one lasted about 6000 miles.
> The second one only went about 4500 miles. I was out of town, and it was after dark. All those guy's that sell OEM had gone home for the night. So I crippled into the Autozone. I put that alternator on in their parking lot and it's been there ever since (about 50,000 miles).
> ...


I put six of those POS oem lift pumps on before going to a FASS Fuel system. No problem since. Some After market stuff is good. Some of it is China crap.


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## redprospector (Jun 11, 2010)

stihl sawing said:


> I put six of those POS oem lift pumps on before going to a FASS Fuel system. No problem since. Some After market stuff is good. Some of it is China crap.



Yep, and some of the OEM stuff is cheap crap too. As you and I have learned with those crappy OEM lift pumps. Too bad they don't price them like the cheep crap they are. They'd only cost about 99 cents instead of the $240 they get.

Andy


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## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep, and some of the OEM stuff is cheap crap too. As you and I have learned with those crappy OEM lift pumps. Too bad they don't price them like the cheep crap they are. They'd only cost about 99 cents instead of the $240 they get.
> 
> Andy



Those pumps and where they were mounted was a poor design from the beginning. They could not handle the constant amount of pressure required to pull the fuel from the tank. They also was made very cheaply as you said and very expensive as you said. I have bought a lot of aftermarket stuff that was better than the original. 

Speaking of auto zone, I went there last year for driveshaft bearing and two u-joints for a 3/4 ton truck. He brought out some Ho Chi Mihn made in china crap.

I ask him do you have something made in the USA. This is going on a truck that pulls weight. I don't want no china junk on it to fail. His answer was no.

haven't been back to auto zone since.


----------



## redprospector (Jun 11, 2010)

stihl sawing said:


> Those pumps and where they were mounted was a poor design from the beginning. They could not handle the constant amount of pressure required to pull the fuel from the tank. They also was made very cheaply as you said and very expensive as you said. I have bought a lot of aftermarket stuff that was better than the original.
> 
> Speaking of auto zone, I went there last year for driveshaft bearing and two u-joints for a 3/4 ton truck. He brought out some Ho Chi Mihn made in china crap.
> 
> ...




Hahaha. I got off of Auto zone when I was converting a 67 Ford truck to take a 3 wire Delco alternator. Auto Zone wouldn't sell it to me because that wasn't an application that their computer called for. Said the warranty wouldn't be good. I told them it's $29, I don't want your damn warranty, I want an alternator. I had to go down the road to Napa. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


----------



## Fish (Jun 11, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Baliff.....wack his peepee.....
> 
> 
> .



She will.........

A lot, hopefully.....


----------



## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. I got off of Auto zone when I was converting a 67 Ford truck to take a 3 wire Delco alternator. Auto Zone wouldn't sell it to me because that wasn't an application that their computer called for. Said the warranty wouldn't be good. I told them it's $29, I don't want your damn warranty, I want an alternator. I had to go down the road to Napa. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy


:hmm3grin2orange: Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Arrowhead (Jun 11, 2010)

Well sense we talkin junk truck parts..... Do not buy autozone ball joints! I went through 3 sets of uppers in 15 months. The top of the joint would completely blow off! The last one I bought was a Spicer from Napa. It was twice as heavy.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 11, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Yes I do, as a matter of fact! And your little story means nothing just chit as you say. A ranger that we have no idea how it has been treated and has a prob at 60.000km who cares. The point is when replacing parts on a car such as fuel pumps, plug wires, brakes, alternators, Have you ever heard all the people say my first fuel pump lasted 100,000 miles then the next 2 only lasted 15000! Bingo! Work on cars everyday for a living and you'll come to trust the quality of oem, we dont use junk aftermarket parts and if the customer buys them and wants us to put them on, no cigar! We dont use anything other than oem.



I work on cars every day for a living, and see allot of JUNK OEM Domestic chit. That was my point. Obviously you didn't get the point.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 11, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Agreed spacemule, There are high quality aftermarket companies no doubt, like edelbrock for instance not the type companies I was referring to. I was talking about the walk into napa and get the cheapest fuel pump they have type junk.



ha ha. Napa is about the worst for fuel pumps, AC Delco pumps are good, as well as Carter, Carter makes allot of "other" pumps.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

parrisw said:


> ha ha. Napa is about the worst for fuel pumps, AC Delco pumps are good, as well as Carter, Carter makes allot of "other" pumps.


Carter is who made the cheap dodge cummins pumps. I have seen some very good pumps made by them but they screwed the pooch on those.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 11, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Yep, OEM is the stuff.
> That's probably why I had to put 2 OEM alternator's on my Dodge before I was forced to buy an Autozone cheapie.
> The first one lasted about 6000 miles.
> The second one only went about 4500 miles. I was out of town, and it was after dark. All those guy's that sell OEM had gone home for the night. So I crippled into the Autozone. I put that alternator on in their parking lot and it's been there ever since (about 50,000 miles).
> ...



AHHH, finally someone that agrees with me. Your totally right!!!! I see allot of OEM JUNK in Domestic cars. Anybody that disagrees with me should pull their head outa their ass. 

I've done Chrysler ECM's, plug them in, hmm, no good. Phone them back, ahh, can I have another! LOL Usually its second time's the charm. 

Ford is the only Domestic I have any respect left for. Minus their 3v 5.4L Triton.


----------



## parrisw (Jun 11, 2010)

stihl sawing said:


> Carter is who made the cheap dodge cummins pumps. I have seen some very good pumps made by them but they screwed the pooch on those.



Yup your not kidding. I just replaced a Carter lift pump in a 94 Cummins 2 days ago at work.


----------



## mdavlee (Jun 11, 2010)

The one on the 94 probably was just worn out. They really are supposed to be changed every 150-200k any way. The 98-02 24 valve trucks are the one with the crappy fuel pumps.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> The one on the 94 probably was just worn out. They really are supposed to be changed every 150-200k any way. The 98-02 24 valve trucks are the one with the crappy fuel pumps.


The first one of mine died at 41,000 miles and then i couldn't get 2000 miles off one. I replaced a couple and thought well hell maybe i'm doing it wrong. Nope, took it to dealer and bent over so they screw me good. Crapped out again. After six of em, I bought a Fass fuel system and solved that problem. Mine is a 2000 model. I took one apart and looked at it. I fully understood why it wouldn't last.


----------



## mdavlee (Jun 11, 2010)

Yeah running electricity in the fuel doesn't seem too bright to me either. I think dodge should have just give a $500 check to people that bought a truck from 98-02 to go towards a FASS or Airdog.


----------



## stihl sawing (Jun 11, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah running electricity in the fuel doesn't seem too bright to me either. I think dodge should have just give a $500 check to people that bought a truck from 98-02 to go towards a FASS or Airdog.


Yep, They would probably have saved money. What pisses you off is when you take one back for replacement, They will only replace it one time. then you have to buy another even though none of them lasted a month.


----------



## komatsuvarna (Jun 11, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ford is the only Domestic I have any respect left for. Minus their 3v 5.4L Triton.



Ill have to add the 6.0L international diesel to that list. Have a 04,05,and 07 and all three of them live at the repair shop. There ok until the warranty runs out and you gotta shell out 4000.00+ dollars ever 9 months to a year per truck. Big POS's


----------



## mowoodchopper (Jun 11, 2010)

outdoorlivin247 said:


> It's funny you mention NAPA and fuel pump...Most of the NAPA pumps are reboxed Delphi and Bosch, which are the same manufactuars that OE use...
> 
> I will agree that not all aftermarket is good, but there is a lot of parts out there that are the same or even better that are sold under different badges...





redprospector said:


> Yep, OEM is the stuff.
> That's probably why I had to put 2 OEM alternator's on my Dodge before I was forced to buy an Autozone cheapie.
> The first one lasted about 6000 miles.
> The second one only went about 4500 miles. I was out of town, and it was after dark. All those guy's that sell OEM had gone home for the night. So I crippled into the Autozone. I put that alternator on in their parking lot and it's been there ever since (about 50,000 miles).
> ...






I can see you guys know it all when it comes to oem parts! I'm not nears as smart or as informed as you guys, I just deal with them every day all day. When you turn wrenches for a living you learn a few things about quality.


----------



## BIGBORE577 (Jun 11, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ford is the only Domestic I have any respect left for. Minus their 3v 5.4L Triton.



Rock on! My 01' Excursion 7.3 still rolls on without anything but the usual at 188K. Brakes, alternator,... well that's it besides the CPS which I replaced with the blue International unit. I know it's young for a diesel but, it keeps rolling on. Not quite stock and not yet beat, even by a 1/2 ton Chrysler Hemi.


----------



## mowoodchopper (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> . Anybody that disagrees with me should pull their head outa their ass. plug them in, hmm, no good. Phone them back, ahh, can I have another! LOL Usually its second time's the charm.
> 
> 
> Sounds weird to me! LMAO


----------



## redprospector (Jun 12, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I can see you guys know it all when it comes to oem parts! I'm not nears as smart or as informed as you guys, I just deal with them every day all day. When you turn wrenches for a living you learn a few things about quality.



Hahaha. Nope I don't know it *all* when it comes to anything. We can all always learn a thing or two.
I'm not saying that OEM is all bad, there are some things I won't replace with anything but OEM. But some OEM parts are pure crap.
I don't turn wrenches for a living, well, maybe I do. I guess it depends on your outlook.
I have a 98.5 Dodge Cummins 3500 4x4, a 97 Ford 250 Powerstroke 4x4, and 86 Chevy 2500 gas 4x4, a 94 Vermeer BC 1250 chipper, a 78 JD 440 b log skidder, a 2001 Gyro trac GT10, an 03 Chomper firewood processor, a 16' conveyor, 3 gooseneck trailers, 3 bumper pull trailers, and 15 assorted chainsaws.
I do all of the maintenance and repairs on this equipment. When I'm turning wrenches on it, it's not making me money. So I've learned a thing or two about quality myself. When I spend my money & time on parts they had better hold up. I've had almost as many OEM parts go south as I have after market, and when my business is down for a day or 2 over some $200 part that some dip #### didn't have the gumption to assemble right because it was Monday or Friday, I get pissed.

Andy


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## parrisw (Jun 12, 2010)

komatsuvarna said:


> Ill have to add the 6.0L international diesel to that list. Have a 04,05,and 07 and all three of them live at the repair shop. There ok until the warranty runs out and you gotta shell out 4000.00+ dollars ever 9 months to a year per truck. Big POS's



Ya the 6.0 wasn't the greatest.



BIGBORE577 said:


> Rock on! My 01' Excursion 7.3 still rolls on without anything but the usual at 188K. Brakes, alternator,... well that's it besides the CPS which I replaced with the blue International unit. I know it's young for a diesel but, it keeps rolling on. Not quite stock and not yet beat, even by a 1/2 ton Chrysler Hemi.



YUP, the 7.3L is a wicked motor. I have one. Its a 97 F350 Powerstroke. Its awesome. 01 was the last year of the 7.3L


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## redprospector (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ya the 6.0 wasn't the greatest.
> 
> 
> 
> YUP, the 7.3L is a wicked motor. I have one. Its a 97 F350 Powerstroke. Its awesome. 01 was the last year of the 7.3L



I guess I just got a lemmon. My 97 Ford 250 is bullet proof, but I have to work on that stinkin' Powerstroke more than anything else I have. I'm thinking about droppin' a Cummins in it.

Andy


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## BIGBORE577 (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ya the 6.0 wasn't the greatest.
> 
> 
> 
> YUP, the 7.3L is a wicked motor. I have one. Its a 97 F350 Powerstroke. Its awesome. 01 was the last year of the 7.3L



Thanks Parris, for some odd reason, I thought you might agree! It is a bad boy, not just because I own one.


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## 04ultra (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> YUP, the 7.3L is a wicked motor. Its awesome. *01 was the last year of the 7.3L*





Hmmmmmmmm you sure it wasnt 2003..........





.


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## parrisw (Jun 12, 2010)

BIGBORE577 said:


> Thanks Parris, for some odd reason, I thought you might agree! It is a bad boy, not just because I own one.



Yup I like mine.



04ultra said:


> Hmmmmmmmm you sure it wasnt 2003..........
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Umm, hmm, I really thought it was 01? But I've been known to be wrong before.


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## 04ultra (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Yup I like mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm, hmm, I really thought it was 01? But I've been known to be wrong before.



The Company I plow snow for has three 7.3L 03 F350's and two 02 F350's all 7.3L's 



.


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## parrisw (Jun 12, 2010)

04ultra said:


> The Company I plow snow for has three 7.3L 03 F350's and two 02 F350's all 7.3L's
> 
> 
> 
> .



Yes, I just checked, your right. it was 03. Don't know why I thought 01????


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## BIGBORE577 (Jun 12, 2010)

04ultra said:


> The Company I plow snow for has three 7.3L 03 F350's and two 02 F350's all 7.3L's



Perhaps, but I hear you never leave the driveway?


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## mdavlee (Jun 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I guess I just got a lemmon. My 97 Ford 250 is bullet proof, but I have to work on that stinkin' Powerstroke more than anything else I have. I'm thinking about droppin' a Cummins in it.
> 
> Andy



That would be the best thing to do if you're tired of working on the stroke. Get a engine out of a 89-93 with the VE pump. They won't make big power but pull just as good as the newer engines and are better on fuel than any cummins they ever put in a pickup. They only take about 4 wires to get running too.


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## mowoodchopper (Jun 12, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> that would be the best thing to do if you're tired of working on the stroke. Get a engine out of a 89-93 with the ve pump. They won't make big power but pull just as good as the newer engines and are better on fuel than any cummins they ever put in a pickup. They only take about 4 wires to get running too.



#1


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## komatsuvarna (Jun 12, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Yes, I just checked, your right. it was 03. Don't know why I thought 01????



Yep, they switched engines midstream 2003. Early 03 have 7.3s and later 03 have 6.0s.


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## redprospector (Jun 12, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> #1



Would a Cummins engine in a Ford pickup be considered OEM? :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


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## redprospector (Jun 12, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> That would be the best thing to do if you're tired of working on the stroke. Get a engine out of a 89-93 with the VE pump. They won't make big power but pull just as good as the newer engines and are better on fuel than any cummins they ever put in a pickup. They only take about 4 wires to get running too.



That's what I was thinking about. Either that or sell the Ford & buy an old Dodge that already had the engine I wanted.
It dosen't take big power to pull good, just good gearing. There's a lot of semi's out there that are only pushing 250 horses or so. 
I'd also like to figure out a way to put a 3 speed behind the 5 speed in it, and still keep the 4x4 intact. It's a shame that US Gear quit making their splitter.

Andy


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 12, 2010)

stihl sawing said:


> I put six of those POS oem lift pumps on before going to a FASS Fuel system. No problem since. Some After market stuff is good. Some of it is China crap.



I got so danged tired of changing those Carter lift pumps that I put a new cam in with a lobe to drive the old 12 valve lift pump. Never given it a second thought since.


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## komatsuvarna (Jun 12, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Would a Cummins engine in a Ford pickup be considered OEM? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy



Itd be better if it was.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 12, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Yeah running electricity in the fuel doesn't seem too bright to me either. I think dodge should have just give a $500 check to people that bought a truck from 98-02 to go towards a FASS or Airdog.



.....or Formula 1 cam and 12v lift pump......


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## willysmn (Jun 12, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> That would be the best thing to do if you're tired of working on the stroke. Get a engine out of a 89-93 with the VE pump. They won't make big power but pull just as good as the newer engines and are better on fuel than any cummins they ever put in a pickup. They only take about 4 wires to get running too.



Tell me more about the VE pump. I'm interested.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 12, 2010)

My vote would be for the P7100. More power, easy to build up big power with even the lower powered p-pumps. Plenty of driveability with the right turbo.


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## haywire4130 (Jun 13, 2010)

i'm not gonna lie, i didnt read all 24 pages of this but i have seen snowmobile engines where the piston-to-cylinder clearance was excessive and it will hammer the skirts as the piston goes up and over tdc and will cause the skirt to shatter like that. did you mic. the piston and measure the bore before assembly? i'd say that or the piston was pretty weak. theres no signs of overheating, seizure, or detonation so it must have been a mechanical breakage. unless the thing was w.f.o. a snagged ring wouldn't have caused carnage like that...
and yeah, o.e.m. truck parts have gone south in the last 10 years. i work on a fleet and have gotten sick and tired of opening up "genuine g.m." or ford parts and seeing "made in mexico" or worse: "made in china"... junk!


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## redprospector (Jun 13, 2010)

haywire4130 said:


> i'm not gonna lie, i didnt read all 24 pages of this but i have seen snowmobile engines where the piston-to-cylinder clearance was excessive and it will hammer the skirts as the piston goes up and over tdc and will cause the skirt to shatter like that. did you mic. the piston and measure the bore before assembly? i'd say that or the piston was pretty weak. theres no signs of overheating, seizure, or detonation so it must have been a mechanical breakage. unless the thing was w.f.o. a snagged ring wouldn't have caused carnage like that...
> and yeah, o.e.m. truck parts have gone south in the last 10 years. i work on a fleet and have gotten sick and tired of opening up "genuine g.m." or ford parts and seeing "made in mexico" or worse: "made in china"... junk!



Oh yeah, this thread did start out about a grenaded chainsaw.
Ok, snap to guy's. Back on topic. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


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## outdoorlivin247 (Jun 13, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I can see you guys know it all when it comes to oem parts! I'm not nears as smart or as informed as you guys, I just deal with them every day all day. When you turn wrenches for a living you learn a few things about quality.



Maybe you should do your math before you tell us we know it all...Who makes AC Delco pumps?......Delphi which is owned and operated by GM...


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

willysmn said:


> Tell me more about the VE pump. I'm interested.



They are very similar to some of the volkswagon engines used in the 80s. I don't have a picture of one on my computer to show you. The have a rotor head that looks almost like a distributor cap with injector lines instead of spark plugs wires. I think if someone is going to use one without trying to get over 350hp and 850ish on torque the VE is the way to go. The P7100s are great at big power but that is not what he is after. 

I would get a Mitusa or Fuel boss before I spent the time to change a cam out.


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## Tzed250 (Jun 13, 2010)

haywire4130 said:


> i'm not gonna lie, i didnt read all 24 pages of this but i have seen snowmobile engines where the piston-to-cylinder clearance was excessive and it will hammer the skirts as the piston goes up and over tdc and will cause the skirt to shatter like that. did you mic. the piston and measure the bore before assembly? i'd say that or the piston was pretty weak. theres no signs of overheating, seizure, or detonation so it must have been a mechanical breakage. unless the thing was w.f.o. a snagged ring wouldn't have caused carnage like that...
> and yeah, o.e.m. truck parts have gone south in the last 10 years. i work on a fleet and have gotten sick and tired of opening up "genuine g.m." or ford parts and seeing "made in mexico" or worse: "made in china"... junk!





Pfffft....:monkey:




.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> They are very similar to some of the volkswagon engines used in the 80s. I don't have a picture of one on my computer to show you. The have a rotor head that looks almost like a distributor cap with injector lines instead of spark plugs wires. I think if someone is going to use one without trying to get over 350hp and 850ish on torque the VE is the way to go. The P7100s are great at big power but that is not what he is after.
> 
> I would get a Mitusa or Fuel boss before I spent the time to change a cam out.



I agree Mitusa is an excellent pump from what I have seen from friends that run them. They weren't out when I changed my cam. I was FASS, Holly Blue, BD double pusher set up and I think Bully Dog had a double as well of which all had issues at times. Last I heard was that folks were having pretty good luck with the Walbro set up similar to the Ford applications. 

I've got a friend that run's an Air Dog on his drag truck and had some issues at first but they worked around it and it supply enough fuel now. I think in general Air Dog had some issues at first but I believe has them ironed out at this point.

If I had to do it all over again I think I might do either the Mitusa or Walbro pumps for a little more cost effective solution, however I do like not having to worry about fuel supply anymore with the mechanical lobe driven and time tested lift pump I have.


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## mowoodchopper (Jun 13, 2010)

outdoorlivin247 said:


> Maybe you should do your math before you tell us we know it all...Who makes AC Delco pumps?......Delphi which is owned and operated by GM...



I have no idea what your point is! But as far you knowing it all, you do a good job of informing everyone of that yourself!


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

Tiger Rag said:


> I agree Mitusa is an excellent pump from what I have seen from friends that run them. They weren't out when I changed my cam. I was FASS, Holly Blue, BD double pusher set up and I think Bully Dog had a double as well of which all had issues at times. Last I heard was that folks were having pretty good luck with the Walbro set up similar to the Ford applications.
> 
> I've got a friend that run's an Air Dog on his drag truck and had some issues at first but they worked around it and it supply enough fuel now. I think in general Air Dog had some issues at first but I believe has them ironed out at this point.
> 
> If I had to do it all over again I think I might do either the Mitusa or Walbro pumps for a little more cost effective solution, however I do like not having to worry about fuel supply anymore with the mechanical lobe driven and time tested lift pump I have.



If I get back into a cummins anytime soon I'll probably get a fuel boss or mitusa whichever is cheaper. Both of them will supply plenty of fuel for most of my needs. I don't have an unlimited budget anymore to play with trucks. The Fass on the 01 I traded off years ago has around 50k on it with the only problem was a leaky filter seal. That truck has somewhere in the mid 400s for hp. The eliminator from wicked diesel was what I run on the 07 I built that is somewhere in the 600s on hp. He quit building them when Airdog started selling for $500.


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2010)

I think we have redefined off topic here


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> If I get back into a cummins anytime soon I'll probably get a fuel boss or mitusa whichever is cheaper. Both of them will supply plenty of fuel for most of my needs. I don't have an unlimited budget anymore to play with trucks. The Fass on the 01 I traded off years ago has around 50k on it with the only problem was a leaky filter seal. That truck has somewhere in the mid 400s for hp. The eliminator from wicked diesel was what I run on the 07 I built that is somewhere in the 600s on hp. He quit building them when Airdog started selling for $500.



Formula 1 did the cam and the massaged the mech lift to pull around 30 psi. Never drops down below about 24psi. Last time I dyno'd my 01 24v is did 624on fuel only probably 3-4 years ago. That set up provides more fuel than a VP44 will ever need. Haven't really messed with mine in probably 2 years so haven't kept up....not much more you can do to a VP44 truck so not familiar with the Fuel Boss.


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I think we have redefined off topic here



Its high performance diesel stuff.

The fuel boss is from Glacier Diesel. 624 is a good number out of a vp truck.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Its high performance diesel stuff.
> 
> The fuel boss is from Glacier Diesel. 624 is a good number out of a vp truck.



Glacier is who was making the nice Walbro kits. If memory serves, Richard is the owner. Talked to him about a nice set of ladder bars that he was making with the dog bones....but he was only making them for the 3rd gen trucks then. Went with Caltracs instead. Nice little company though and a good guy.

Yeah, some VP guys did around 650 on fuel with bigger twins than mine but that's about all you're going to do without one of those monster pumps and last time I checked they weren't streetable. I was hunting for 13's in the 1/4 but never could quite get there in my 6spd. Tried nitrous and started breaking too many things.....it's back to tow rig trim....well never really changed from that....might have made 13's if I lightened her up a little.

Would love to have a CR truck but got too much in this one. Does what I need and I still like it.

Sorry for the hijack Brad.


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## blsnelling (Jun 13, 2010)

Tiger Rag said:


> Sorry for the hijack Brad.


No problem


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## stihlboy (Jun 13, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Would a Cummins engine in a Ford pickup be considered OEM? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy



depends as the cummins is a factory option on the bigger trucks ford has stake in cummins also



oh yeah and what happens if that 440 was ruined? granted it wasnt stock
is everything ok? sucks that you put so much time in it and it fails oh well im sure you will build it up again


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> depends as the cummins is a factory option on the bigger trucks ford has stake in cummins also
> 
> Ford sold all of the stock it had about 10 years ago when dodge and cummins signed a new contract. You can only get a cummins in a 650 and up. NOthing that competes with the dodge 2500-5500.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> [
> 
> Ford sold all of the stock it had about 10 years ago when dodge and cummins signed a new contract. You can only get a cummins in a 650 and up. NOthing that competes with the dodge 2500-5500.


Yep, You would be correct.


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## stihlboy (Jun 13, 2010)

when it has the 6 speed tranny oh boy its a fun truck

odd though, why would ford still have it as an option if they have no stake in the company


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

In any road tractors and bigger vehicles Cat, Cummins, and Detroit are options as well as some of the vehicle manufacturers like Volvo. Volvo will sell you a road tractor with a Cummins in it if you desire. Personally I wish it was like that in the pickups. I would love to have a F-350 srw with a Cummins in it.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> In any road tractors and bigger vehicles Cat, Cummins, and Detroit are options as well as some of the vehicle manufacturers like Volvo. Volvo will sell you a road tractor with a Cummins in it if you desire. Personally I wish it was like that in the pickups. I would love to have a F-350 srw with a Cummins in it.



There are a good many Fummins out there......just got to build it yourself...lol. Dodge makes too good a truck for it to be worth it to me. I like a Ford truck but I like my Dodge just fine too.


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

I really like the super duty body style. I drive a 09 F-250 right now. I've had 10 dodges with cummins, 2 strokes, and one duramax. I'm currently shopping for a cheap cummins 1st or 2nd gen to beat around in.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2010)

Tiger Rag said:


> There are a good many Fummins out there......just got to build it yourself...lol. Dodge makes too good a truck for it to be worth it to me. I like a Ford truck but I like my Dodge just fine too.


What's a "Fummins"?


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

Ford with a cummins.


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Ford with a cummins.



Thank you.....beat me to it.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Ford with a cummins.


lol Ok thanks, Ive seen a ford with one in it. he done a lot of work on it to make it fit. Think it had like 5 or 600 horsepower.


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## stihl sawing (Jun 13, 2010)

Wishin i had one in my old 88 model F-250, instead of the gas hog 460ad


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## Tiger Rag (Jun 13, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I really like the super duty body style. I drive a 09 F-250 right now. I've had 10 dodges with cummins, 2 strokes, and one duramax. I'm currently shopping for a cheap cummins 1st or 2nd gen to beat around in.



Biggest thing I like about the Ford's is the size of their crew cab. Nice big cab and you can still have a long bed. Mega cab Dodge would be fine if you could get an 8' bed with it.

Buddy has an 6.4l F-350 dually. Can't believe how well that truck rides for dually.....heck for anything. I think it rides better than my taurus company car.


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## mdavlee (Jun 13, 2010)

The guy that built an engine for me was building a cr cummins to go in an 02 ford and the guy wanted 800-900hp in it. His neighbor had an 05 dually with around 700 that he wanted to outrun. These guys brought their trucks from Florida to Tennessee to get the work done. 

I traded an 07 4 door shortbed dodge on the 09 ford mainly for the cab room with the baby. She was almost sitting on the console with her facing backwards. Sometimes I wish I had a longbed but they are a pain to park.


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## redprospector (Jun 14, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I think we have redefined off topic here



Sorry Brad. It was a natural progression though.
We were talking about aftermarket chainsaw parts, then it went to aftermarket in general, and now it's just...................well, you can read. 

Andy


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## mdavlee (Jun 14, 2010)

It's all high performance. We just need to get Brad hooked on oil burners too. He would be wanting to build a 1000hp daily driver.


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## outdoorlivin247 (Jun 14, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I have no idea what your point is! But as far you knowing it all, you do a good job of informing everyone of that yourself!



I know nothing...And the way I look at it the less I know the better off I am...

But I do know I have worked in the parts business most of my adult life...I am not arguing that aftermarket is better than OEM, but what I am arguing is the fact that this world has turn to a bunch of ####ing idiots that work on cars-trucks...

Not calling you a ####ing idiot, but in general most mechanics today are not mechanics at all...They are just parts changers that blame the parts for failing...Parts fail for a reason, be it human error, wear and tear, just plain wore out or the biggest reason SOMETHING CAUSED IT TO FAIL...That cause could have been low voltage, improper installation, improper lubrication and until you find out why it failed you can't blame the part...I sell probably 10 Cummins ECM in Sept-Oct b/c farmers get in their truck that is used for hauling grain 1 month out of the year and they don't have enough common sense to put a battery charger on it for a ½ an hour before they try to start it...

I guess it really pisses me off that people want to pull the OEM card when a vehicle that has 200,000 miles on it starts to have problems...I guess if OEM was so good there would be no reason for the would of aftermarket...


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## isaaccarlson (Jun 15, 2010)

If I ever get the funds I will be getting a cummins. My dad has had one for almost ten years in his ram 3500. He pulls a 22' 7 ton trailer with 5 foot sides stacked FULL and a full bed.....all WET OAK. He lives on a tall ridge and pulls that load from up to 40 miles away and then pulls it up a mile long road to the top. He has extra tranny coolers and oil coolers and still gets hot:hmm3grin2orange: But it gets the job done. I don't know how much that much wood weighs but the trailer tires are almost to the rim and and truck is squatting. He said it (the wood) weighs close to 20 ton.


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## parrisw (Jun 15, 2010)

isaaccarlson said:


> If I ever get the funds I will be getting a cummins. My dad has had one for almost ten years in his ram 3500. He pulls a 22' 7 ton trailer with 5 foot sides stacked FULL and a full bed.....all WET OAK. He lives on a tall ridge and pulls that load from up to 40 miles away and then pulls it up a mile long road to the top. He has extra tranny coolers and oil coolers and still gets hot:hmm3grin2orange: But it gets the job done. I don't know how much that much wood weighs but the trailer tires are almost to the rim and and truck is squatting. He said it (the wood) weighs close to 20 ton.



Yup they sure can pull. Most important thing when pulling loads like that is to watch your EGT, you can melt a motor fast, especially if you got a few things done to to. When I put a chip in my truck its very easy to spike up the EGT, so I put in a gauge to monitor. I don't have a Cummins though.


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