# How do you use "gunning" marks on a saw?



## NebClimber (May 18, 2004)

Can someone please explain to me how to use the gunning marks on a saw? I can't even find them, and if I could find them I wouldn't know how to use them anyway. But I need to figure it out. I have a husky 385xp and a 357xp, so these saw should have gunning marks on them.

Steven


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 18, 2004)

This is an inter- arresting thread: http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?threadid=13823


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## MasterBlaster (May 18, 2004)

That line on the top of your saw is your gunning line.

If you keep that pointed where you want the tree to fall as you make your topcut on the under bed, the notch will be correct to the lay.


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## Ax-man (May 18, 2004)

Most Sthils have a line on the flywheel side ( rewind housing)and on the clutch cover, in addition to the top line like MB described. I would think Husky has the same set-up.

If you ever get a chance to go to one of those Sthil Certification seminars, don't pass it up, they cover how to use those felling sights, plus much more.



Larry


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 18, 2004)

i think the sight line just sets the bar perpendicular to the target; with squared clean cuts using it to get bar perpendicular to target will:

Put thinnest point across hinge/ least leveraging to fold to target, as path of least resistance. (or backwards as a function of being on the same axis, hinge will have same charachteristics against.)

Place corners of hinge pulls equally form target to balance to it in the pre-face slap phase.

AS faces close and the motion is changed from vertical down, to throwing tree forward horizontally, the outside most leveraged points of push in faces would also be evenly spaced to target; serving evenly to it again.


They used to sell, or try to sell 'gunning stix'; idea was to place one end of each equal length pole in the corne apex where the faces meet on either side. Then touch them together at a point out in front of the face. Done siiting inside the formed triangle, you would line up from the center of the hinge, th where the stix came to a point, then forward to show target line of fall.

The outside corners of the hinge are most leveraged pull positition, so this takes that into consideration. The most leveraged/powerfull face push is is also at the leveraged outer reaches of the hinge corners i beleive.

Orrrrr something like that!
:alien:


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## murphy4trees (May 18, 2004)

Good question!!!! How many others never bothered to ask in two or more decades of falling trees...

This is how you use a gunning line... I left thre pic big on purpose so you could get a good look at the saw...

That black line on either side of the compression release button on top of the saw, just below my left hand is a gunning line...

Keeping the bar level and standing over the saw as the first and top cut of the notch is made, gives the faller a great view staight doen the gunning line... it's easier to judge than when judging the floor cut first, because you have a better angle to look from than when the saw is low on the floor cut..

I was just talking to a regional and the original safety and training coordinator for Bartlett Tree service and he had no understanding of the fine points and benefits of this technique...
To his credit though, he was very appreciative of the conversation, and a great guy as well..


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 18, 2004)

Pretty sharp!

In a perfectly round circle/stump, the cut entrance at very top of that peak like an arrow, will be online with the closest part of the circle's circumfrence towards the target. Keep bar pependicular to a line running from there to target evenly. This places most leveraged corners of hinge equal from target line to pull and push evenly to target.

If you could look up under tree after square lay to face/target; obviosly that "arrow" at top of upper face, willnow point from stump to target.

i think developing a feel for these things, leaves the gunning line behind.


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## murphy4trees (May 19, 2004)

> i think developing a feel for these things, leaves the gunning line behind.



Gotta strongly disagree with that statement. The "feel" starts and finishes with the gunning line... Start the cut looking right down that sight as pictured and finish looking the same to make sure you've stayed right on.... 

Using that gunnubg line is the cat's meow.....

You can see in this pic that the gunning lines runs right over the top of the saw... It is sometimes useful to double check the sight though mostly not needed as long as the top cut is gunned properly...

Come to think of it, the technical editor at TCI magazine had never heard the term "gunning" or "gun" used in this meaning before he read an article I submitted there... That just goes to show what a tremendous lack of good information is made a vailable in this industry...


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## glens (May 19, 2004)

Hey Murph

As long as you're resizing the images, think you could get them down to around 100K for us poor POTS modem folks?

Glen


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## murphy4trees (May 19, 2004)

Is this small enough?

Pic 1


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## murphy4trees (May 19, 2004)

Even smaller pic 2


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## NebClimber (May 19, 2004)

Murphy:

I see the gunning line on the saw. So what exactly do I do with it?

Just watch it to make sure it is perpindicular to the ground? Or do I line it up with something else?

Do I look toward the intended fallng path of the tree? 

Again, whith what do I aline the gunning marks?

Steven


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## Gord (May 19, 2004)

The gunning lines are perpendicular to the bar of the saw so they point in the direction of the intended fall of the tree, of course other factors must be compensated for a lot of the time for true direction of fall.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2004)

You are gunning sight to where the gunning stix would aim at placed in the corners; the target. Any equal length stix would work, 2 equal length polesaws etc.

It might not look like it cuz he isn't bent down on one knee sighting across the line; but i think you can see his body lined up squarely next to tree, though standing; eye is lined up straight across mark then looking to target.

i'll have to give it another round their Murph; mebe i just got lazy, every once in a while i check a sighting with it; but generally make the top arrow of top face point towrds target, and keep bar straight, feeding squarely, evenly down cut. In tree, with ground target, i might point with the bottom face entrance point.

The feel i aim for is pointing this way, then keeping the bar square/perpendicular to target, perpendicular to a line from the pointer to the target; like a mirror trying to shine a light right from the bar, to the target.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2004)

So you guys are saying the gunning line is at a 90 degree angle to the bar and all you gotta do is stick the bar against the notch and look down the line? That's amazing.

Hey Murph, still cutting your notches 3/4 of the way throught he tree, I see.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2004)

In a shallow or back leaner or need more forward pull to overcome side pull; i think a deeper face might help.

Actually, i think Murph has written about going in1/3, to place the leveraged corner on the support side of the tapered hinge you love into the widest and most elastic fibers i think as a strategy.

And your dawg's................ oops wrong trhread....!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2004)

No wonder he has a brand new saw and the bar it already all shot, he spends half his day cutting notches.


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## murphy4trees (May 19, 2004)

Mike,
Wow I feel the love.... Actually you make a good point and it can serve as a teaching piece as well..
See the stump shot of that same cut in this pic...

It seems to me that that particular notch is just about 30%, maybe a little bigger.... However I don't strictly follow the 30% rule... it's a guideline... a basic idea of what to use.... in most easy falling situations 15-20% is plenty... I've actually been questioned about cutting such small notches...

In this situation a slight front leaner with a plunge and back release, there was no need to cut such a deep notch, so you are quite correct in bringing the subject up... However there is a good reason for this deep notch??? Look at the pic and see if you can figure it out....


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## murphy4trees (May 19, 2004)

I wanted to make the hinge right at the split in the trunk to keep the flush cut poice as small as possible... So I started the roof cut of the hinge using the gunning line and just kept cutting until the cut reached the desired height... To me that aslo is a big advantage to making the roof cut firston an open face notch... you can adjust the height placement of the hinge as you go, always being able to take it down... Sometimes doing that as you cut is advantageous.

Turns out in retrospect I could have made the notch even lower, very close to ground level, though I had some unfounded concerns about decay down there...

Now as far as the bar being shot... there is a good reason for that too .................................................

I bought that saw three days before Isabel hit 9/03, and took it down to Va. to do stump grinding... I beat 9 carbide chains with that 20" bar... cutting the stems off large sunk uprooted trees... sometimes plunging right into the ground. It took a beating.... We dug and hosed plenty of dirt off, but that kind of work is hard on the saws.... Those carbide chains cost 1.5x the cost of a bar... that is plenty of wear and tear... and all paid for too!!!!


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## glens (May 19, 2004)

A little better on the sizes.&nbsp; It's not just physical geometry of the image that's a factor, but also (and sometimes more so) the density of the image.&nbsp; A "quality" of "75%" is quite sufficient for Web-based stuff.&nbsp; The first newly resized image took 1&frac12; minutes to arrive, and it filled the pipe so full that no other traffic can use it.&nbsp; The second one was a bit better at 35 seconds, and the third was somewhere between.

I don't know exactly what information is in the images you put up, but running them through the "convert" program (included with ImageMagick, from from http://www.imagemagick.org/) in the one case, with no other options, reduced the size 60%.&nbsp; Actually, the same occurs with the other two, but they're still needlessly large, so I hit them with the "-resize 67%" parameter.

Here's a partial directory listing, showing the file sizes in bytes, date, and name:

<font face="fixed">&nbsp; 364853 May 19 01:11 12911.jpg
&nbsp;&nbsp; 96918 May 19 09:04 12911.jpg.67.jpg
&nbsp; 178679 May 19 01:13 12912.jpg
&nbsp; 106229 May 19 09:04 12912.jpg.jpg
&nbsp; 422427 May 19 08:30 12913.jpg
&nbsp; 111232 May 19 09:11 12913.jpg.67.jpg</font>

I'll attach the smallest.&nbsp; It's not too small is it?

Glen


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2004)

i grew up learning that thinking outside of the Box, din't have to be so sir-real even if others didn't go along, like a seperate Life.

Kinda a you try it, noy you try it, no you;
Let's get Mikey to try it;
He won't try it
He don't like anything
kinda re-deal 

So, like they used to say;
Who wants to be like Mike?
Ooooooooooops, sorry, wrong thread; i think Mike's knew logo is "Don't T(h)read on Me"  



i guess not always necessary; i can see uses both ways; different uses for different times

Stumper has made a proper sounding theory, that the wood is better medium as a hinge long and thin, rather than short/fat. Mechanically it could fight sidelean better with a longer, levraged run of the hinge i think. 

But time, gas and chainlife etc. might make ya ask if it is worth it with other avenues/shallower face. take power away from a forward leaner

Undermining the C.o.B. more in a balanced, shallow, or back leaner could definitely put some things positively on your side quickly as a deeper face strategy i would think. Also to give more power to push cleaner through side or front obstachles to the fall.

Or to give more lean to target, for more power pulling to that point; to pull more cleanly through, distracted less by the sidelean axis. Also, sets pivot of hinge in wider part of stump, to give sidelean less lean as calculated from C.o.B. to hinge pivot, as a compounding factor. 

Also, some of the extra cutting for open deep face, is done easier, by flat flooring the bottom face, instead of cutting up against gravity, then extra slanting topcut that is easier to do, as you guide lightly as gravity pulls saw down. i think that is what Daniel tried to show before on disgustion about if an open face has to have a dropped floor, or as he pointed out, just open top wider, and let saw ride down on it's own, then for bottom face, flat floor to.

Or something like that.


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## igetbisy (May 19, 2004)

the gunning sight is on most saws, some people use the handle, as long as whatever you use is perpendicular to the bar, it will work fine, set your dogs, make sure that the bar is all the way in the cut, all the way from one side to the other, and look down your gunning sight, that's where the tree should fall, given there are no unusual circumstances, and your backcut is correct.


OR, take a carpenters square, once the pie cut is out, put the square against the back of the notch, and mark the line perpendicular to the cut then, standing in front of the notch, line your saw up with the pencil line, and bore through the tree. blow the hole out, walk around and look through the hole. whatever you see through the hole will be destroyed by the falling tree.


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## jamie (May 19, 2004)

*gunning*

gunning lines point where the tree is to fall (just to reiterate what others have said). i find that looking where its going, checking and rechecking always help. when the gob is cut, i find standing in line and checking again helps....

as for cut sizes i have always been told, 20 - 25% for the gob and a hinge of 10% works best.....none of this 3/4 gobs....

we have pinoneerd a new back cut, we were burning a couple of big pine, had the fire next to a skinny (3") sycamore pole (Acer psuedoplatnus) and well the fire burnt through the tree...viola the flaming backcut.....

jamie


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2004)

i guess what ever you are comfortable with, that serves the same purpose; that you use most pro-efficiently.

i see a common denominator of geometry and mechanichs that i would true my system to; i believe we talk of a mathematical definition as a basis for this. Givng confidence of accuracy by following the math, through whichever device we use.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2004)

Jeeze, can't I give you a little crap Murph, without you writing a two post answer, with pictures of your giant, goofy angle notches? Save yourself some wear and tear on that poor bar and cut both the roof and floor angles the same on those open face notches. 

And Spyder, you're writing poetry about my antics now? Take it to the fight thread.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2004)

One more thing Spydy, what the heck do you think we have for moniters on our computers? Some giant, big screen, movie theater screens? Your drawings are bigger than one of Murphy's notches! Did you ever hear of resize?


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2004)

Sorry, i'll try and watch it;
i am running 21"...
no really.

And i did chant your name in the thread, and now all over!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2004)

Whatever size those drawings are, they don't fit on my 8" screen and clog up my Commadore 64 computer.


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## MasterBlaster (May 19, 2004)

I've got 10" on ya, Mike.

Wal-Mart.  

LCD.


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## Nickrosis (May 19, 2004)

I'm using a 3.5" TFT screen on my handheld since I don't need to compensate.


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## Husky372 (May 20, 2004)

hey nick if its handheld i quess it really does'nt matter what size it is


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## murphy4trees (May 20, 2004)

*HI Mike*

MM wrote:


> pictures of your giant, goofy angle notches



The problem with a staement like the above is that some newbie might read it and think you have the slightest idea about the subject... Flat out..... dis'in the open face notch like that is a diservice to the readers here... In my judgment you lack an open mind on this one, which is surprising coming from an arborist of your skill and experience....

Look at what Arbormaster is saying, Tim Ard, Mark Chisholm, Weyerhouser, and all loggers' trainings are teaching...
The conventional notch is old school... about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch.....

Correction: "about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch" is a bad analogy... I retract the statement.


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## rbtree (May 21, 2004)

Sorry murph, but I diasgree...There's lots of reasons for 25-50 degree notches.....when aloft...for making a top pop off and land flat, for helping a stick to rotate less and land better....

and on the ground, a nice straight conifer will be well committed and fall just fine with a 40-50 degree notch. 

But check MM's words, he didn't say not to use an open face, he said to drop the floor cut down, so that the top cut is easier...less of a ripping cut.


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## rborist1 (May 21, 2004)

:Eye:


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## Nickrosis (May 21, 2004)

And I think MM was talking about the notch that was greater than 70* or whatever yet didn't go into the tree more than an inch. In my mind, that's a goofy notch, too. Not really a cause for a battle around here....


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## a_lopa (May 21, 2004)

when roping a limb down one or more ropes attached,most times you shouldnt have to put a notch in anyhow let it tear off where you want it to go especially if you want to deflect it and are already holding its weight why scarfe it?only adds danger eg using two ropes to move limb one side of tree to the other in situations where there is no hang room


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 21, 2004)

i think that the cuts are mechanical commands, in machine language/code to the hinge and face machines both.

So there are times when you want to only allow so much movement before the faces force tearoff; like so a top doesn't get hung, or facing a hill, a crane lifting up, a rig lifting up- by the time it gets to where the line is pulling straight from the hinge to the pulley-you want the faces to be narrow enough to force tearoff.

i beleive the tapered hinge provides best support to an offside load. The same forward felling forces imposed on a normal strip hinge, would have to bend over fibers on the rear -lean side of hinge; this is a waste of forward force i think. As the tree leans over on the hinge; that side that 'cost' so much of the available forward force; returns very lil support to the heavy-first moving heavy side/C.o.B. The same amount of forward moving force applied to a tapered hinge, releived of the load of bending the rear fibers of hinge on the lean side; will now use it's forward force to bend more fibers on the control side, for a higher return from the strategic use of the forward moving force available of lean, line and wedge. This will give more travel slower on hinge i think. In a hinge the increasing leveraged weight through the arc of felling might rip the hinge before the faces meet; the heavy side would cause this first; this gives more support to the heavy side that is pulling; addresses the C.o.B. directly with more. i use all my actions to address the C.o.B.; it is the lead force, and if it don't move,neither does the rest IMLHO.

Which makes a wide face knotch a perfect compliment to the tapered hinge. The angle of the faces would dictate the outside constraint on the amount of movement on the hinge. Hinge strength and flexability (lacks of) might cause tearoff before reaching the outer constraint of the face angles/allowable sweep. So both permit more travel on hinge, one might said to be a waste in some situations without the other.

As far as having all of that open face angle on the top face like Daniel has tried to show; it looks just like a text book example of what Tim Ard and Mike Bolin recomend and picture in their "Forest Applications Training" (FAT?); and exactly as pictured in the "notching Tips" option of Tim's Tips .

None of which is gospel; but hopefully the sources Daniel learned the technique from, his own experience, and it being pictured for training etc.

i think that dropping the floor makes that more of a ripping cut in trade, and at least with Daniel's option the weight of the saw is being powered by gravity as it makes the cut on top. Arm powered on bottom cut coming up; also Daniel walke the learning curve with it i think he said in another thread for having the power of an open face, almost flat on the ground for most leverage too added to the formulae, and no stump cut to boot. i think there are 2 places to set/adjsut the mechanical command of how much sweep on the hinge to have as an outside constraint.


Aussie i think your technique works fine sometimes, using the compression underneath as some of the support pushing up and not cutting into the compression. Cutting more to the neutral fibers on the side as not to pinch. i think it makes more ripping fiber in the cut, and should not be made any where near a branch collar to be pre-served. None of the disturbed fiber should end up in the final cut i think.


Or something like that..........
:alien:

P.S. i could use a pic or referance to drawing etc. to give me a better idea of what fills the screen best without scrolling around sideways. i got this $100 21" monitor 3 years ago at the computer show, so none of 'em give me that problem, i tried to guess; but had not the perspective.

i had a TRS80; never had the Commodore; i'm not that kind of guy.

Mr. Morally bankrupt, i did have to take it to the fight thread, even had to start without ya, whenst ya din't show. i magine you were practicing laying there bleeding and moaning so that you will look good for the crowd? Waht is the tree fight about write now? When was the last time you dared go thar?


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## murphy4trees (May 21, 2004)

OK,
My bad... it was a bad analogy.... written in haste.... might have been better to say "use in falling trees" instead of 


> about as much use in modern arboriculture as the tautline hitch.....


Of course then there are guys like the Master out there that are still getting the job done with the tautline  , but I wouldn't want to give trhe impression I was advocating the tautline....

And yes there are plenty of variable that would make a smaller notch desireable. I'll give one example of RB's point as a pennance here... When falling the top from in the tree, if the log or top tumbles past horizontal and comes down tip first, the but of the piece can kick back past the base of the tree, damaging whatever might be there. Or if the tip spears into the ground the butt can "spring" forward far away from the tree. Thus the need to lay the top down flat.... And in critical situations some prefer to use the humboldt to create a ramp for the butt to slide off the tree...
Here's the top of an 80'+ fir I removed yesterday, in a tight backyard... I cojuld have blocked it down, but used a conventional notch to make it fall flat..


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *And I think MM was talking about the notch that was greater than 70* or whatever yet didn't go into the tree more than an inch. In my mind, that's a goofy notch, too. Not really a cause for a battle around here.... *



Nick, you haven't come to know me very well, to say something as dumb as _anything _ is not cause for battle.

I don't have a problem with an open face notch. I was teasing Murph about the way he and Tim Arndt cut their open face notches. It's just that I'm lazy and don't to waste time or wood.
If you're cutting firewood, a huge notch wastes a good part of the log and makes it hard to split, along with leaving two big sections of sniglets (odd size firewood that can't be sold for full retail), you end up with the notch wood and the half a piece of log.
If you're using the wood for lumber, a big notch really wastes the wood. The log is sold by length, to a square end.

Look at my drawing. It's easier and faster to cut a normal open face, than an MGGAN (Murphy Giant Goofy Angle Notch).


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## a_lopa (May 21, 2004)

yeah spida, i usually leave just a tip in the direction i wnt it to go either way is fine really it just works a bit better for control when cradling i think not as much jerk less room for error but thats only my opinion.you have to know your species how it hangs on but thats all part of it


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 21, 2004)

Notice in my picture that the small notch is a wider angle (about 90 degrees) than the MGGAN (about 60 degrees).


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## The Best GM (May 21, 2004)

That is a big goofy notch! The thought of cutting an oak or sugar like that makes me crindge. The tre would be half cut up buy the time murph notches her. The angle should be enough that it does not meet the botom cut before the tree is almost on the ground. Murphys got to stop being soooo by the book man, that just is soo anyoing. 

What is the tuantline hitch anyways? I have never been to keen an formal names and formal training. Ive probably seen it 1 thousand times but never told THIS IS a TAUNTLINE. This is the only place ive been where people think training is any equal to expieriance, Not that he doesn't have expieriance, its just some times when some thing says DO NO tOUCH you gotta touch it to find the true path.


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## murphy4trees (May 21, 2004)

Well I Am glad I finally got something named after me... Just think of it .... the open faced notch has now been renamed after me!!!!
What an honor 

That said with a smile I wholeheartedly disagree with MM's, GM's and Treeco's position.... It may be that we have different perspectives because we work and get paid in different situations... Its been many over a decade since I sold firewood.... and never made much money at it anyhow... and getting paid for a log happens every blue moon or so....

I get paid for precision felling... dropping trees with control in tight areas....

And mike... that diagram is total spin...


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 21, 2004)

i don't do it; but Murph's idea of taking an opener face lower (by not needing lower space for bottom face; gives more leverage of pull agianst a slightly lower C.o.B., and more wood etc. i think, and powers the stump over in one move; is pretty efficient, good mechanichs, depending on cutting time. i think cutting bottom face up is harder than cutting top face down. Now at what angle the saw hitting the fiber comes into play, and at what angle it is efficient to do so , may be another matter.



i think that quite logically, the only travel on the hinge needed is the smallest constraint of:

When the arching overcomes the flexibility of the fibers(brittleness)

When the leveraged load overcomes the hinge(strength)

or the allowable arc of movement between lean and arrival(arc).

Any more open in the face than this smallest of the 3 constraints, is superfluous(?). The first thing that gives, determines the point where the arch on hinge stops; the lean determines the starting positon, arc needed, the distance between.

On the allowable arc, 90 degrees would only be needed for falling from straight vertical to straight horizontal. Any lean towards target would need less degrees of arc; could use less opened face. Then, the stop would be when the head hit firmly, perhaps lessening needed arc space from that side too.

But it would only need that much of the alllowable arc, if it had enough strength and flexability to hold on that long against the ever increasing leveraged load. Few hinges can hang on to a spar parallel to the ground/ most leveraged position like one of Daniels recent pix in another thread, so the allowable arc on hinge needed is usally less than 90 degrees without being a back leaner IMLHO. In the air, a different story; sometimes go towards reaching for a 180, in proper wood and support line Aussie's faceless trick into the less loaded axis to the side of the branch works well here too i think.

Sometimes closing before needed changes the direction of the force from down forward to throwing forward into the face and up to thump ground less hard with butt end i think.

8.)Weather or not, looks of disdain would rain from being caught with such a monstrocity of hinge/face machine would kinda depend on if the observer knew off/applied to the theories and practices of the international champions and recognized , accreditated sources mentioned.

And Daniel's make better wheel chocks too:Monkey: 

Or something like that
:alien:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *
> And mike... that diagram is total spin... *



Here, is this attachment more accurate?

How can you fell with percision if the best you can do is 60 or 70 degrees, sometimes you need the the notch to hold all the way down.
After about 45 degrees from level, increasing the angle of the top cut has exponentially diminishing increases in the openness of the notch.
This means you need to have your bottom cut at an angle to make it an open notch.
Doing both cuts at about 45 degrees from level, gives you a full 90 degrees of notch, something you can't get with your namesake (MGGAN).


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## MasterBlaster (May 21, 2004)

Hey, I'm a 'precision feller', too!


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 21, 2004)

*Another 5 star thread*

Brutha Daniel; i been trying to stand up fer ye; please come forward and answer the accusations as to/per had on record in Dan vs. Dan. What of this loss of usable allowable arc in such a face as you make

If tree is leaning to 1 oclock before felling (bout 30 deg.), do degrees movement + 90 = 120 degrees; well anyway, we expect more control than stands in mute testimony to where you are trying to take us.

Do you have a better picture than this that we can more fairly appraise your skills in your favour, to give you an even chance? It outdoes more than a few i've done; so don't take me wrong i'm just trying to learn!

Of course if you find it esier to hinge part of it down slowly to the side on trailer or something, or just not rock out......... ahhh never mind......!



:alien:


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## murphy4trees (May 21, 2004)

Gotta go on estimates.....

I"LL BE BAACK--------------------------


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## murphy4trees (May 21, 2004)

Since this thread got off-track... see this one

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=14902


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## a_lopa (May 22, 2004)

thev only reason that tree has stayed on the stump is cause its full of water, and the notch as you say in usa


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