# Garden location in yard Question



## U&A (Jan 22, 2016)

My wife and I just moved into a new house the middle of last year. We have always loved having a garden but have never had much room for a big one. I grew up with a garden that was about 20' x 40' and its now time to have one of my own now that we have the room.

question is, there is one spot that is Ideal as far as location in the yard/layout of the yard. It gets lots of sun and it will take water well. my only concern is there are some tall red pines ( 70-90 feet tall, no low branches) that are close enough that they will drop needles on the garden if we put it in that spot. its not large amounts of needles, as the grass is in good shape their. its a little thinner than the rest of the yard but it still looks good and grows just as fast.

Do you think a garden will do well there? Michigan top soil is kinda sandy if that makes a difference but we will be using compost as well.

thank you in advanced.


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## Del_ (Jan 22, 2016)

Pine needles would be good for the garden but make sure the pines won't bring shade. In your northern location full sun from sunrise to sunset is best. Also make sure tree roots don't compete with your garden plants. Tree roots from pines that tall may go for 40 or 50 feet. Trees can provide a good microenvironment for a vegetable garden but shade and root competition can be a serious problem. A slight south lay of the land also improves garden production in your latitude. If you can orient the garden so the rows run true solar North/South you may get a fraction more production.


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## U&A (Jan 22, 2016)

Del_ said:


> Pine needles would be good for the garden but make sure the pines won't bring shade. In your northern location full sun from sunrise to sunset is best. Also make sure tree roots don't compete with your garden plants. Tree roots from pines that tall may go for 40 or 50 feet. Trees can provide a good microenvironment for a vegetable garden but shade and root competition can be a serious problem. A slight south lay of the land also improves garden production in your latitude. If you can orient the garden so the rows run true solar North/South you may get a fraction more production.




thank you very much. I appreciate it. I honestly have no idea how high the roots are but the base of the trees will be a good 20 feet from the edge of the garden. hopefully that fare away the roots are low enough to not interfere much. what do you think? 

the north and south thing wont work so well there but I will try for sure..... unless i make the rows short and just have more columns. 

thank you


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## Del_ (Jan 22, 2016)

Tree roots are %80 in the top 12inchs of the soil and extend far further than most people imagine.


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## U&A (Jan 22, 2016)

I will probably change my location then. thanks for the help and education.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2016)

I feel like the pine needles would give you trouble not sure how to explain what I mean .... Any garden book would say they're good I just feel like they've been dropping in the same place for so long it could mess with your ph. The roots can be a big pain also. I'm pretty sure you could add some lime to correct the ph but it may take a year or so I could be dead wrong but if it was my garden and wasn't a heck of a lot of trouble I'd just try to get away from trees in general full sun will give you your best results hope some of this makes sense and was helpful good luck w the garden


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## U&A (Jan 23, 2016)

jakethesnake said:


> I feel like the pine needles would give you trouble not sure how to explain what I mean .... Any garden book would say they're good I just feel like they've been dropping in the same place for so long it could mess with your ph. The roots can be a big pain also. I'm pretty sure you could add some lime to correct the ph but it may take a year or so I could be dead wrong but if it was my garden and wasn't a heck of a lot of trouble I'd just try to get away from trees in general full sun will give you your best results hope some of this makes sense and was helpful good luck w the garden



It makes sense. Thank you. 

I have decided to move it because of the roots. I understand what you are saying about the needles possibly messing up the PH.


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Jan 31, 2016)

I have lots of tall pines on my urban residential plot. it is sizeable. I deal with lots of pine needles annually. I deal with lots of pine needles all the time! I have been gardening with complete success there in for over 30 + years encircled by tall pines on the 180-degree line, in line with the sun... I am in growing zone 9a. summer and winter suns do matter, but not that much as dif seasons call for dif crops. generally, summer fruits, fall roots.

first and foremost, consider sun, sun and more sun... as your most important garden location consideration. all else can be rectified. if the tall pines will only drop _some..._ needles on ur plot then from my experience then that will not be a problem. mine drop a lot all over my plot. it is a never ending constant issue. worst in fall and feb, eases up some in summer. raking needles is kin to mowing the lawn... lol. from experience I have found the off shoot roots of pines will flow out deeper than only 12". pine needles will, if in excess... influence, as stated your soil's ph... but over the years... I really have not worried about it. and I don't fuss too much about it. I concentrate more on soil quality, friability and such. I have a significant compost program on-going, too. no shortage of good info on how to lower it online. a good start is a good ample compost program. can be as simple as just a pile or welded wire circles. I do not turn any of my compost. [too much work! lol]... I have tons of rich, beautiful forest floor like compost. so sweet is it, sometimes I just grab a double handful hold it up and savor the freshness!!! compost - good stuff.

I would encourage you to go for the best location with the best sun, given ur description of your plot area you are considering. get a good tiller and till up the plot to start with. assuming it has never been tilled, it will not be a till once plant and go. every time I till I always hit a root or two. pine tree roots, imo... no big deal at all! just deal with it. and it's easy to do. too big, I stop... and get down on it and sawsall it out... put back soil over it and carry on. 3/8ths to 1/2" diam roots may be common. yet, still never a real issue. but doubt they will be prevalent. not from my experience. you may want to start of with a small garden plot first year... a lot can be grown as such. then work out to larger plot as u learn more about your land, pines, their effects, etc. I use the needles in my compost, for mulch, weed control... etc. good soil, some tilled in pine needles, and good compost will make a nice friable soil. volumes could be written, shared to help you with your question... gardening is a vast, complex interesting activity. been with us as a species for almost forever. hunter/gathers. the latter is the gardening. (simplified) no two years will ever be the same, despite same plantings, and some stuff just wont do well in some growing zones. no two garden plots are the same, either. you didn't state ur location so hard to know ur growing zone. but every season will be a new learning experience no matter how many years you garden.

the other posts here are no doubt from gardeners, too. experienced. but unless they have indepth gardening experience under, with and along big looming pine trees... they can only offer help in generalities...

be cautious of buying too much this or that at the big box stores or even local feed-n-seed centers. really easy to spend $30-40 per trip... just remember... that buys a whole lot of fresh vegetables at your grocery store. I don't buy at any farmer's markets. you don't want to be showing off your nice newly ripened tomatoes... that cost you $10.00 each! lol... learn learn study and learn...

start small. go for sun, sun, sun! learn your land and plot. till it well. don't get too concerned about tilling deep initially, more so make raised beds. start small, think big!!  make raised beds. be optimistic... and have fun. and if you do not have a copy, get ahold of D-ick Raymond's book: _The Joy of Gardening_. he was very involved with Garden-Way and Troy Bilt Tillers before MTD. fabulous story of those companies... I can tell you this much... once I got a Troy Bilt tiller and read D-ick's book... I never looked back. and I never had a need to buy another book on gardening. I garden according to the methods and techniques in his book.. has worked for me flawlessly for over 30 years! my garden is the talk of my neighborhood!  it is a wonderful read and you will not regret getting a copy. its all about gardening strategy, methods, techniques, ideas, and on and on... and just full of tons of beautiful full color pix, too... D-ick is a master gardener of master gardeners!...

http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Ways-Gardening-****-Raymond/dp/0882663194

also: google The Bayou Gardener. many many vids on gardening. his vids are awesome!! his gardens even more so.

good luck and best wishes for many fun gardening seasons ahead...

pix memo: need I say more?  :

no shortage of big pines at my place, they encircle me, garden to L of garage...on S side.


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## U&A (Feb 1, 2016)

Wow! Thanks for the extensive/informative reply.


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## capetrees (Feb 1, 2016)

Pine needles are no problem, just get a soil test and adjust the pH with lime. Pine needles will make the soil more acid. Add compost to your soil if its sandy. Nobody has sandier soil that me. Pure sand right to the water table. Don't know how far from the trees you are or how large your garden will be but damage to the roots usually isn't a huge problem. Keep in mind all the other roots it has. Problem is the roots will invade and prosper even better in the new rich soil they can now live in.


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## Iron Head (Feb 1, 2016)

Backyard Lumberjack is absolutely right.
The sun is most important. You can change the soil condition but you can't change the sun condition.
As for the pine needles, it's no big deal. They make excellent mulch.
We have fir needles which are about an inch long and they are a pain in the rear trying to wash off of your veggies but that's about it.


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Feb 2, 2016)

beautiful day to be outside gardening or whatever. my pines seemed to glisten in the sun's rays today, hence: my pine trees foto essay:


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## Backyard Lumberjack (Feb 2, 2016)

today I finally got around to putting in some seed potatoes. ususally do it mid Feb, but I noted these in pantry few weeks ago... and they had started to root out, so cut them and let them dry somewhat... I didn't want too many spuds this season. I have planted as many as 40#s cert seed spuds, reds, and each spud was cut 2-3 times!!! [ugh] plenty spuds though!!  plenty pine needles on bed where I planted. had to clean some clover clumps first... grrrr! I could have tilled it, forked it or made rows... I chose to simply dig some holes. then I tossed in some 7-20-0. had a volunteer spud plant pop up from last season in another section... I just let it grow 3 months or so... noted it had died down... so wondered what if anything mite it yield? nuggets? nice, fresh red spud nuggets? I could hardly wait....

decided to plant some reds here... plenty of pine needles!






ended up with 15 planted spud seed starts... will produce anywhere from 50 - 100 or so reds... since I only will have 15 plants will up the fertz a bit to help ensure bigger spuds as they grow. harvest late spring/early summer....





today got these off the volunteer potato plant that popped up late summer...





should go well with some yard eggs and thick smoked country bacon...





red spud seed start, dried bit longer than need be, but it will grow well...





ran into some roots, too. some string, some like shoe lace sized and this one over along edge of spud spot... came out easily enough. my garden is over 30 years old, consequently soils excellent!!! I rarely till, ususally just fork or spade by hand. besides, I hate to turn all the worms into hamburger! and I got lots of worms in the beds...


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