# A big splinter



## TNMIKE (Sep 8, 2007)

I posted this on the chainsaw forum as well..Dont forget your face and ear protection. This guy did and he paid a big price as you can see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEU2qQuhjJg


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## woodshop (Sep 8, 2007)

Begs as to how it happened... was it a big chipper? Can't see how a chainsaw could throw something that big with that much force into the face.


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## roy clarke (Sep 8, 2007)

Looks suspiciously like a bit of theatre to me. There are a number of pointers, not least of which is how does a chainsaw shift a piece of wood like that without marking it.


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## b1rdman (Sep 8, 2007)

roy clarke said:


> Looks suspiciously like a bit of theatre to me. There are a number of pointers, not least of which is how does a chainsaw shift a piece of wood like that without marking it.



It's from a table-saw.


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

So it's not so much face protection that's needed, more machine guards that should be fitted. Guys in the US have tens of thousands of table saw accidents each year, and still they run unguarded blades. They also use straight through fences, which is asking for trouble.


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## Sawyer Rob (Sep 9, 2007)

> So it's not so much face protection that's needed, more machine guards that should be fitted. Guys in the US have tens of thousands of table saw accidents each year, and still they run unguarded blades. They also use straight through fences, which is asking for trouble.



The problem is, a huge amount of the cuts made on a tablesaw can't even be made with the guards on. I've owned tablesaws since the 70's and had my own cabinet shop for many years and still have all of my fingers and no pierceings. In fact i have 3 tablesaws right now, all without guards.

How about just not standing in front of the blade???????????????????????

Sooo, i guess no one ever gets hurt in the UK on a tablesaw? I wonder how many people even own a tablesaw over there "compared to here"???

DM


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> The problem is, a huge amount of the cuts made on a tablesaw can't even be made with the guards on.



What cut that can't be made by a guarded saw can't be made by some other means?



> How about just not standing in front of the blade???????????????????????



Finger mincing is still available where ever you stand.



> Sooo, i guess no one ever gets hurt in the UK on a tablesaw? I wonder how many people even own a tablesaw over there "compared to here"???



You had better guess again then, BUT Europe has MUCH stricter requirements for guarding and use of circular saws while the US has virtually none. With a cavalier attitude like that to safety, what hope is there? Still as is written in the good book, how can you remove the splinter from your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own? or in this case, up your nose.


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## woodshop (Sep 9, 2007)

roy clarke said:


> What cut that can't be made by a guarded saw can't be made by some other means?



Roy, never said it couldn't be made by other means... there are many ways to make many different cuts in wood with many types of machinery in my woodshop. However, some cuts, like putting a dead strait dado in a piece of wood, although CAN be made by other means than a dado blade on the table saw, usually can't be done as precise or as quickly with less setup than when done on a table saw. Sorry but I'm with Sawyer Rob on this one. I'm all for safety. I do have a splitter right behind the blade on my table saw that keeps the wood from catching the back of the blade and shooting it 80 mph at my face, but it is easily removed when doing a dado cut for example, where the blade is unseen below the wood. But that's all I have... no guard to get in the way and keep me from seeing what I'm doing. Common sense and constant respect for the saw does the rest. Curious what you mean by a "strait through fence". Can you explain that for me?


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## MJR (Sep 9, 2007)

European government regulation is the main reason many of our American ancestors left Europe. Most people who are milling their own wood are independent souls and do not need a government "official" telling them the safest way to do it. I will intelligently run my power equipment the safest and most productive way I can. When something does happen I do not blame the government ( They should have a law about that) or the manufacture ( They should have a label for that or that guard should have been "better"). This site is to spread ideas and answer questions about milling. If any one has any ideas on ways to increase safety I am all ears. Thanks.


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## TNMIKE (Sep 9, 2007)

*My point for posting this*

My point for posting the video was you can get hurt very easily with power tools or chainsaws. It pays to wear and use whatever safety equipment is available. You usually get hurt when you have used a piece of equipment for a long time and get too complacent using it. 

I cut the end of my right index finger off on a jointer about twenty years ago. I had turned the machine off and turned my head for just a second and the blades pulled the work piece and my hand into the cutter head. I had used this tool for years and most always used push sticks but on this one occasion didnt. 


Take care, take time and be safe. Its up to you.
__________________
Mike


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## Sawyer Rob (Sep 9, 2007)

> What cut that can't be made by a guarded saw can't be made by some other means?



Can't be made by some other means?????? Hell, what cut made on a tablesaw "can't" be made by some other means???

Maybe we should ban those terrible people maiming tablesaws???






Rob


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

sawyer rob said:


> The problem is, a huge amount of the cuts made on a tablesaw can't even be made with the guards on.





sawyer rob said:


> Can't be made by some other means?????? Hell, what cut made on a tablesaw "can't" be made by some other means???


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

woodshop said:


> .............. However, some cuts, like putting a dead strait dado in a piece of wood, although CAN be made by other means than a dado blade on the table saw, usually can't be done as precise or as quickly with less setup than when done on a table saw.



I don't disagree. It does do a better job.



> Sorry but I'm with Sawyer Rob on this one. I'm all for safety. I do have a splitter right behind the blade on my table saw that keeps the wood from catching the back of the blade and shooting it 80 mph at my face,.........



Is is just a short splitter, or is it a riving knife that comes almost to the top of the blade? 



> Curious what you mean by a "strait through fence". Can you explain that for me?



A fence that stretches in one continuous piece from the input side of the bench to the output side of the bench. 

The fence only needs to go just to the front of the saw blade, as anything behind that shouldn't have any effect on the cut. If it goes the width of the bench, it can cause wood to bind against the back of the blade if the wood has the wrong tensions in it when ripping.


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

MJR said:


> European government regulation is the main reason many of our American ancestors left Europe.



Religeous persecution, and economic conditions inflicted by landowners and politicians were the main reason. Not Eoropean government regulation.



> Most people who are milling their own wood are independent souls and do not need a government "official" telling them the safest way to do it. I will intelligently run my power equipment the safest and most productive way I can.



They may not WANT to be told what to do, but safest and most productive are often conflicting requirements while the job goes well. When it goes badly, "safest" would have been better than the apparently "most productive", but it doesn't seem so at the time.



> When something does happen I do not blame the government ( They should have a law about that) or the manufacture ( They should have a label for that or that guard should have been "better"). This site is to spread ideas and answer questions about milling. If any one has any ideas on ways to increase safety I am all ears. Thanks.



Unfortunately manufacturers produce things as cheaply as possible whilst avoiding prosecution. The car makers did this until Ralph Nader stirred things up until the US now has some of the strictest safety requirements for safety in vehicles anywhere in the world. 

While you may not blame the government or the manufacturer, there are MANY lawyers in the US who get rich taking on cases on behalf of those who DO.


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## roy clarke (Sep 9, 2007)

TNMIKE said:


> My point for posting the video was you can get hurt very easily with power tools or chainsaws. It pays to wear and use whatever safety equipment is available. You usually get hurt when you have used a piece of equipment for a long time and get too complacent using it.
> 
> I cut the end of my right index finger off on a jointer about twenty years ago. I had turned the machine off and turned my head for just a second and the blades pulled the work piece and my hand into the cutter head. I had used this tool for years and most always used push sticks but on this one occasion didnt.
> 
> ...



It's a good point Mike, and fortunately chainsaws must have inertia operated chain brakes by law (dreadful for all those independant souls who wanted to make their own decisions) since it was easy to do something that seemed ok at the time, but 8 milliseconds later, smashed it's way into their face. Who would use a saw nowadays without a chain brake that they tested every day to ensure it was working?


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## woodshop (Sep 9, 2007)

roy clarke said:


> Is is just a short splitter, or is it a riving knife that comes almost to the top of the blade? .... The fence only needs to go just to the front of the saw blade, as anything behind that shouldn't have any effect on the cut. If it goes the width of the bench, it can cause wood to bind against the back of the blade if the wood has the wrong tensions in it when ripping.



It's not a riving knife, but a splitter higher than the blade, with a pawl on it to prevent the wood from coming forward towards the operator (me). I can remove and replace it in seconds. Here is a pic...










As for my fence not having to go all the way across the whole table... I can see your point, I suppose technically the fence does not HAVE to go the full length of my table. However, I think I would miss the stability and rigidness of a fence that locks both front and rear as most good ones do. For small thin stuff I guess I COULD live without a full fence, but when I'm pushing a big chunk of 8/4 maple through that saw I'm pressing good and solid against that fence the whole way down the fence which is supporting the WHOLE piece, not just the front that has yet to meet the blade as a "half" of a fence would only seem to do. With a full fence, pressing hard and firm the whole way, the piece doesn't wander even a slight bit and my rip is strait and burn free. Yes occasionally I get a piece of wood that wants to bind a bit, but never had anything I couldn't muscle through the cut without much trouble. Worst case scenario, just stop and reach for the kill button, then rough the rip on the bandsaw to within a quarter inch of your original rip and THEN go back and finish on your tablesaw. 

Hey, thought this was a milling forum... well I guess we were on the subject of safety. Sawmills, tablesaws... they both cut wood


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## TNMIKE (Sep 9, 2007)

*Nice looking table saw*

What make is the saw and is the fence aftermarket.?? Isnt a table saw pretty much a small sawmill? Your on message here as far as I can tell


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## woodshop (Sep 10, 2007)

TNMIKE said:


> What make is the saw and is the fence aftermarket.?? Isnt a table saw pretty much a small sawmill? Your on message here as far as I can tell



It's a standard Taiwan 3HP cabinet saw... aka Grizzly or Jet or many others, but yes it's an after market fence, a Shopfox. I needed something more accurate and solid than the original that came with it. I got this fence 10 years ago, attached the quartersawn birch to it and never looked back. Only once did I have to readjust it slightly in all those years. When you toggle that handle in front, it locks both ends of the fence to the rails, so you get a pretty solid accurate fence. 

I do mill small logs in my shop, 8 inches dia and under, and less than 5-6ft long. I start on the resaw bandsaw (with outfeed table to support log) to slab off the sides and then mill into planks. Often I stop there... but occasionaly depending on the wood I will run them through the planer, jointer and then tablesaw to get them semi-cleaned up and THEN sticker them.


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## TNMIKE (Sep 10, 2007)

*Bandsaw resaw*

What kind of bandsaw do you have and what width blade are you using to resaw.

Ive used my Delta tablesaw to rip all sorts of green wood but ive not used my bandsaw because I havent had a blade wide enougth to make smooth accurate cuts.


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## roy clarke (Sep 11, 2007)

When you look at what a Woodmizer does, I don't think that "wide" is the most significant attribute of a blade.


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## belgian (Sep 11, 2007)

I have to agree with Roy Clarke. He made some very good comments with regard to safety imo. European background and education with regard to safety may explain this view. I had a very simular discussion on the safety issues related with a homemade cordwood saw. see http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=45233

the same discussion started as of post 34 +


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## BobL (Sep 11, 2007)

Sawyer Rob said:


> The problem is, a huge amount of the cuts made on a tablesaw can't even be made with the guards on.



+1 and (sorry to do this here) Rob can you please check your PMs . . . or maybe you have and you don't wanna reply . . . . that's fine too.

Thanks


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## Sawyer Rob (Sep 11, 2007)

> Ive used my Delta tablesaw to rip all sorts of green wood but ive not used my bandsaw because I havent had a blade wide enougth to make smooth accurate cuts.



I think your going to find that it "isn't" the band nearly as much as it is the bandsaw itself! A heavy "tuned up" bandsaw will resaw very straight with a 1/4" band.... I've been doing it for many years useing Lenox bi-metal skip tooth bands...

Small bandsaws are VERY hard to get to resaw accurately...

DM


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## woodshop (Sep 11, 2007)

I seem to remember hashing this out before a bit... but... bottom line on using a bandsaw for milling small logs, is you gotta have a powerful bandsaw or a LOT of patience. As with using a little electric chainsaw to mill large logs, you will eventually get down the log alright, but don't hold your breath. I have used my 3/4HP 14 inch Delta for milling very small stuff, like 4-5 inch osage orange to get a small blank out of a limb. Works even with a thin blade, but 1/2 inch 3tpi works better. However, my resawing (milling) larger logs, up to say 8 inches is done on a Laguna 220V 2 1/2 HP bandsaw. Even that doesn't really have enough power, but if you take it easy and your blade is sharp, it will do the job. I use standard 3TPI 3/4 inch wide blades on my resaw. Although it will resaw up to 12 inches, I never tackle much over 6, as it just gets too hard to handle. Again, the power for slicing through wet wood that thick is just not there in most bandsaws. 

As for the European vs US safety laws and regulations... lets just say I'm glad I live here. I read through that other thread about the buzz saw... interesting. I posted pics of a similar saw run off of a tractor a while back ( it was my brother-in-laws). That thing sure did scare me to death... but I don't want somebody telling me (or my brother-in-law) that we can't build or use one for our own personal use. I did spend 3 years in Europe a ways back, and traveled to most countries while there, and although I loved many things about most of Europe I spent some time in, the cradle to grave socialist mentality over there just turned me off. Within reason, I like the fact that I am free to make my own mistakes, and hopefully learn from them. Yes in a socialist state that means everybody then has to pay for that... but then that's why I wouldn't like living in a socialist state in the first place!!


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## aquan8tor (Sep 12, 2007)

woodshop said:


> It's a standard Taiwan 3HP cabinet saw... aka Grizzly or Jet or many others, but yes it's an after market fence, a Shopfox. I needed something more accurate and solid than the original that came with it. I got this fence 10 years ago, attached the quartersawn birch to it and never looked back. Only once did I have to readjust it slightly in all those years. When you toggle that handle in front, it locks both ends of the fence to the rails, so you get a pretty solid accurate fence.
> 
> I do mill small logs in my shop, 8 inches dia and under, and less than 5-6ft long. I start on the resaw bandsaw (with outfeed table to support log) to slab off the sides and then mill into planks. Often I stop there... but occasionaly depending on the wood I will run them through the planer, jointer and then tablesaw to get them semi-cleaned up and THEN sticker them.






Do you like the shopfox fence? I need to replace the fence on my 1970's rockwell contractor saw. The saw only has a 1.5 hp motor, but I'm looking for a suitable replacement......It has a 50" table on it. I'm looking at the vega and accusquare fences now, but I'm not set on anything yet. The guy that I bought the saw from was a machinist, & built a table like the unisaw table extension out of aluminum angle & tube. The factory fence's 35 year old plastic pieces are degrading, and have been repaired a couple times. I want something better than another fix. 


BTW, how big are the wheels on the laguna saw? I've seen their setups and they're pretty sweet looking. I have a meager Ridgid 14" saw, but I put a riser block on it, built a nice rolling stand from a "fine woodworking" project, & put a riser block on it, as well as a 2HP baldor motor, which works a lot better than the crap 3/4hp motor it came with. I spent the better part of the afternoon "milling" up some mulberry firewood logs on it. (pics later--couldn't find camera today).


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