# Race chain



## the woolfe man (Sep 19, 2010)

Hi just wondering if anyone out there is willing to make me a cross cut race chain.
To suit a ms460 cutting 14inch blocks.
I haven't brought the bar yet so I'm after opinion's for size chain and bar etc.
I can pay for the chain to be made.And shipped to Australia.
I understand there is alot of work behind a race chain.

If i cant get someone to make a race chain.
What would be good chain to race with?


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## flushcut (Sep 20, 2010)

You should repost this in the hotsaw forum you might find a guy to help you. I don't think you will have any luck though race chains are kind of top secret. Madsens has some good info about basic race chains.  and good luck


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## MCW (Sep 20, 2010)

the woolfe man said:


> Hi just wondering if anyone out there is willing to make me a cross cut race chain.
> To suit a ms460 cutting 14inch blocks.
> I haven't brought the bar yet so I'm after opinion's for size chain and bar etc.
> I can pay for the chain to be made.And shipped to Australia.
> ...



Biggest problem may be finding someone to actually race against. Come for a drive, I'm up for a saw race


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## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 20, 2010)

You're looking at .50 cents per drive link or more for a race chain depending on the amount of work involved, so 150$+ for a basic race chain is common.


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## blsnelling (Sep 20, 2010)

Finding someone to make you a race chain is not easy. BTW, a race chain may look something like this.


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## blsnelling (Sep 20, 2010)

BloodOnTheIce said:


> You're looking at .50 cents per drive link or more for a race chain depending on the amount of work involved, so 150$+ for a basic race chain is common.



In my experience, it's more like $2.50-$4.00 / per link. They're usually $150-$250 for a 60DL chain to fit a 16" bar.


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## tdi-rick (Sep 20, 2010)

MCW said:


> Biggest problem may be finding someone to actually race against. Come for a drive, I'm up for a saw race



They're advertising the full programme at a forthcoming show on Seven Central (Queensland/NT regional TV) ATM 

Apart from Tommy and Dennis continuing to say "wood is wood" I have a hard time believing that a square chisel race chain sharpened for poplar or pine will standup cutting Eucs but i could be very wrong too.

Will/lumberjackau races in both speed and post rip events, you could drop him a PM.


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## gmax (Sep 20, 2010)

MCW said:


> Biggest problem may be finding someone to actually race against. Come for a drive, I'm up for a saw race



I'll race against you, 2 rules though.. your saw will have to be over 20 years old & not ported


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## MCW (Sep 20, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Apart from Tommy and Dennis continuing to say "wood is wood" I have a hard time believing that a square chisel race chain sharpened for poplar or pine will standup cutting Eucs but i could be very wrong too.



I've snapped cutters clean off with the same amount of meat as that pictured race chain in good old Aussie hardwood. Wood ain't wood thats for sure. Rakers set up on race chains for soft woods would bog my 3120 on a 16" bar in something like Box 



gmax said:


> I'll race against you, 2 rules though.. your saw will have to be over 20 years old & not ported



So you want to race my Echo 290EVL Wayne? Hmmm. I feel a whoopin coming on 

And I think I'll be copping it


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## gmax (Sep 20, 2010)

MCW said:


> I've snapped cutters clean off with the same amount of meat as that pictured race chain in good old Aussie hardwood. Wood ain't wood thats for sure. Rakers set up on race chains for soft woods would bog my 3120 on a 16" bar in something like Box
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That little Echo will be hard to beat.. I'll have to bring the beast.......................




















:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## 2000ssm6 (Sep 20, 2010)

BloodOnTheIce said:


> You're looking at .50 cents per drive link or more for a race chain depending on the amount of work involved, so 150$+ for a basic race chain is common.



Yup, $150 is about right for a non thinned chain. Thinned will start around $250...


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 20, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Finding someone to make you a race chain is not easy. BTW, a race chain may look something like this.



Those rivet heads could be lowered some more Brad.
Pioneerguy600


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## CentaurG2 (Sep 20, 2010)

Got a whole nail full of worn out chains that look just like that. At $2.50 a link, just how many would you like me to send you?


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## blsnelling (Sep 20, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Those rivet heads could be lowered some more Brad.
> Pioneerguy600



Need a surface grinder setup to do that kind of work. That was painful trying to do that by hand


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 20, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> They're advertising the full programme at a forthcoming show on Seven Central (Queensland/NT regional TV) ATM
> 
> Apart from Tommy and Dennis continuing to say "wood is wood" I have a hard time believing that a square chisel race chain sharpened for poplar or pine will standup cutting Eucs but i could be very wrong too.
> 
> Will/lumberjackau races in both speed and post rip events, you could drop him a PM.




When your world is full of conifers, yes maybe "wood is wood"...


Ask Dennis how his Stihl series chain did...again...lol

I pay 150 for 60dl unthinned...thinned ,surface ground, about 300 to 400..


Sabastian Bertrand makes good chain, available through Simon...

A couple of guys on here are supposedly making wicked chain...I just havn't seen it in person...yet


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Sep 20, 2010)

gmax said:


> That little Echo will be hard to beat.. I'll have to bring the beast.....................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## blsnelling (Sep 20, 2010)

Stihlboy has warned me that I shouldn't be plugging non-sponsors. Shame on me. I'm so so sorry


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## gmax (Sep 20, 2010)

ms460woodchuck said:


> gmax said:
> 
> 
> > That little Echo will be hard to beat.. I'll have to bring the beast.....................
> ...


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## Bill G (Sep 21, 2010)

CentaurG2 said:


> Got a whole nail full of worn out chains that look just like that. At $2.50 a link, just how many would you like me to send you?



Well you do you say hmmmmmm

Get some pics up then. 

You do realize the reason it looks like it does don't you?

Bill


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 21, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Need a surface grinder setup to do that kind of work. That was painful trying to do that by hand



Drill press,mandrel with a 1/4" wide stone mounted in the chuck and a section of guide bar of the gauge chain you are making mounted into a machine vice. Set the chain up to just touch the rivets to the stone and then slowly pull the chain around keeping a little pressure on the opposite side of the chain, two trips around should have them lowered considerably.
Pioneerguy600


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## timberwolf (Sep 21, 2010)

Something along this line. Photo is a bit trick, long exposure in low light to make it look fast and like a lot of sparks. Realy work is done quite slowly and with low feed pressure.

A great deal goes into making good chain seldom does a chain that looks incosistent cut really well. Easy to spend 8 to 12 hours on a chain, the ones that are taken apart and thinned are a bunch more work yet.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 21, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Something along this line. Photo is a bit trick, long exposure in low light to make it look fast and like a lot of sparks. Realy work is done quite slowly and with low feed pressure.
> 
> A great deal goes into making good chain seldom does a chain that looks incosistent cut really well. Easy to spend 8 to 12 hours on a chain, the ones that are taken apart and thinned are a bunch more work yet.



Yep, nice looking rivets = nearly flat. Thanks for the pict.
Pioneerguy600


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## timberwolf (Sep 21, 2010)

They ended up with a slight angle due to the chain rocking over in the bar rails but with a little shim under the jig that can be cleaned up. Stone could be dressed to take care of that too.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 21, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> They ended up with a slight angle due to the chain rocking over in the bar rails but with a little shim under the jig that can be cleaned up. Stone could be dressed to take care of that too.



A little plastic slide mounted on the opposite side just touching the rivet heads as they pass the grinder wheel helps a lot. Still a good looking job compared to some I`ve seen. 
Pioneerguy600


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Brian, your handy work or fathers?
.Looks pretty.


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## timberwolf (Sep 21, 2010)

That one is my messing about. I find it hard to find the time required to do much with chain. Made a few jigs and holders up, but I'd rather work on the motor end of the saw.


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 21, 2010)

I can feel your pain, I can't imagine disassembling an entire chain and surface grinding .011" off the inside of every connecting link and then removing more from the tooth itself.
Every 1/2 hour or so I'd have to run a lap around the yard, well walk anyways...


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## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 21, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> I can feel your pain, I can't imagine disassembling an entire chain and surface grinding .011" off the inside of every connecting link and then removing more from the tooth itself.
> Every 1/2 hour or so I'd have to run a lap around the yard, well walk anyways...



It's easier to buy the chain pieces, machine them, then assemble them into a chain I imagine.


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## CentaurG2 (Sep 21, 2010)

Bill G said:


> Well you do you say hmmmmmm
> 
> Get some pics up then.
> 
> ...



I was thinking he needed a chain for demolition. You know to cut an asphalt roof or maybe to cut a yard tree with several thousand nails in it from 6 generations of tree house designs. Might be good for a couple of roots too or at least that’s what I do with chains that look like that. Is there another purpose??


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 21, 2010)

BloodOnTheIce said:


> It's easier to buy the chain pieces, machine them, then assemble them into a chain I imagine.



Best built one link at a time, three grinds per cutter, dog bones made out of the tie straps and presets.
Pioneerguy600


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## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 21, 2010)

Around here dog boning and chassis work will get you disqualified at certain shows, because they are considered unsafe.


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## WoodChuck'r (Sep 21, 2010)

BloodOnTheIce said:


> Around here dog boning and chassis work will get you disqualified at certain shows, because they are considered unsafe.



Unsafe mah azz.


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## troutfisher (Sep 21, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I find something inherently immoral about buying a race chain.....



Why is that? people pay $250+ for a woods port, and race chain will shave more time off three cuts than a woods port. I think it's the most cost effective way to buy speed.


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## little possum (Sep 21, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Why is that? people pay $250+ for a woods port, and race chain will shave more time off three cuts than a woods port. I think it's the most cost effective way to buy speed.



Can you have race chain on the stock saws?


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## troutfisher (Sep 21, 2010)

three places I raced this year allowed race chains on work saws. Morristown, NY ; Lisbon, NY and Marlbank, Ontario.


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## MCW (Sep 21, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Unsafe mah azz.



True to a point but you'll always get some peanut take it just that bit too far, slap his forehead with a busted chain, and then the blubberment will ban chainsaw racing 



troutfisher said:


> Why is that? people pay $250+ for a woods port, and race chain will shave more time off three cuts than a woods port. I think it's the most cost effective way to buy speed.



I agree but in racing only. I have no interest in race chains as I have nobody to share the speed with  Most people will benefit far more from a wood's port as it is also beneficial in day to day saw work whereas race chains aren't.


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## troutfisher (Sep 21, 2010)

MCW said:


> True to a point but you'll always get some peanut take it just that bit too far, slap his forehead with a busted chain, and then the blubberment will ban chainsaw racing
> 
> 
> 
> I agree but in racing only. I have no interest in race chains as I have nobody to share the speed with  Most people will benefit far more from a wood's port as it is also beneficial in day to day saw work whereas race chains aren't.



yup, no point in taking fast chain to the woods. It won't be fast for long.


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## Chopwood (Sep 21, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> yup, no point in taking fast chain to the woods. It won't be fast for long.



There's a guy posting on this thread that makes a helluva chain. I've won a few races with one of his.


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 21, 2010)

And I'm waiting for mine


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 21, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Great thread guys but I find something inherently immoral about buying a race chain.....
> 
> 
> .....make the fastest chain you can.......and be happy with it.
> ...




Immoral maybe but even if you have the fastest stuff you'd still finish 5th. If thats your goal, a job well done


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## gink595 (Sep 21, 2010)

I've never seen a race chain, can someone post some pics of a true race chain.


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## MCW (Sep 21, 2010)

Hoping not to get off track here but do any saw races get run using control chains? At least then you'll see the fastest saw and not the fastest chain. I'd never be any good at racing otherwise because;

a) I'd never spend USD$150+ on a chain apart from maybe Carbide and...

b) I don't have multiple hours available to make and test my own chains and...

c) It wouldn't handle a dirty old Redgum log very well


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## AUSSIE1 (Sep 21, 2010)

Best to get yourself some chisel and practice square filling. When the cutter gets toward the end, do some more work to the chain.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 21, 2010)

AUSSIE1 said:


> Best to get yourself some chisel and practice square filling. When the cutter gets toward the end, do some more work to the chain.


I agree,when the chain is near the end of its useful life anyway why not experment.By then some of the crome will be honed off and provided the rakers are adjusted to the kerf it should cut well up to the point the teeth start breaking off.
More than likely most of what devoloped into race chain was learned in the field.


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## 4000fixed (Sep 21, 2010)

*Grinding race chains/reasonable*



the woolfe man said:


> Hi just wondering if anyone out there is willing to make me a cross cut race chain.
> To suit a ms460 cutting 14inch blocks.
> I haven't brought the bar yet so I'm after opinion's for size chain and bar etc.
> I can pay for the chain to be made.And shipped to Australia.
> ...



I've been grinding a simple race chain from stock chain for about 25 years. Safe as possible and fast. With factory drag height, and they are fast. Won't last long in the woods though. No rivet grinding, it is stock as possible. Here are some pics of .404 full chisel. I grind any size or pitch. Shipped anywhere in the world. PM me for prices, very reasonable.


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## redprospector (Sep 22, 2010)

4000fixed said:


> I've been grinding a simple race chain from stock chain for about 25 years. Safe as possible and fast. With factory drag height, and they are fast. Won't last long in the woods though. No rivet grinding, it is stock as possible. Here are some pics of .404 full chisel. I grind any size or pitch. Shipped anywhere in the world. PM me for prices, very reasonable.



Hmmmm! 

Andy


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## Andyshine77 (Sep 22, 2010)

4000fixed said:


> I've been grinding a simple race chain from stock chain for about 25 years. Safe as possible and fast. With factory drag height, and they are fast. Won't last long in the woods though. No rivet grinding, it is stock as possible. Here are some pics of .404 full chisel. I grind any size or pitch. Shipped anywhere in the world. PM me for prices, very reasonable.



Yup, that not race chain Ohio man.


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## MCW (Sep 22, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> I agree,when the chain is near the end of its useful life anyway why not experment.By then some of the crome will be honed off and provided the rakers are adjusted to the kerf it should cut well up to the point the teeth start breaking off.



I've always found that chain cuts faster and faster if set up properly as it gets closer to the end of it's life  Just when you're absolutely flying it's time to throw it in the bin, or the cutters snap off 



4000fixed said:


> I've been grinding a simple race chain from stock chain for about 25 years. Safe as possible and fast. With factory drag height, and they are fast. Won't last long in the woods though. No rivet grinding, it is stock as possible. Here are some pics of .404 full chisel. I grind any size or pitch. Shipped anywhere in the world. PM me for prices, very reasonable.



To me that looks like just a stock chain with the back ground off the cutter  I can do that on my grinder with Dinasaw wheels in 2 minutes.
I have to be honest but I doubt it would be any, if at all, faster than stock chain. Why would it be apart from slightly less drag from the back of the cutter? I'm no expert but the words "ground" and "race chain" don't go in the same sentence. Maybe "meticulously hand crafted with a file for hours" and "race chain" may sound better...


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## chainsawwhisperer (Sep 22, 2010)

redprospector said:


> hmmmm!
> 
> Andy



+1


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## timberwolf (Sep 22, 2010)

Mostly a chain cuts faster towards the end due to the reduction in width as the tooth is filed back. On smaller lower HP saws works well right back behind the rear rivet. On bigger saws say 10-12hp and up it is often better to keep more tooth and not file back so far. I think the height of the tooth and chip clearing starts to become a factor. Gearing can change that, if running a low (small) gear a more forward bigger cutter will do a better job of getting the HP to the wood, but gear up with a big sprocket and a smaller cutter near the back ends up faster. 

There are a few simple things that can be done to a work chain and gain quite a bit of cutting speed without really hurting how long it will last. Maybe only worth while for someone doing production felling or tree work. Just the same I don't mind spending a few extra minutes on a chain just for cutting fire wood for 2-3 families.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 22, 2010)

4000fixed said:


> I've been grinding a simple race chain from stock chain for about 25 years. Safe as possible and fast. With factory drag height, and they are fast. Won't last long in the woods though. No rivet grinding, it is stock as possible. Here are some pics of .404 full chisel. I grind any size or pitch. Shipped anywhere in the world. PM me for prices, very reasonable.



Your style race chain would be a little faster than a stock out of the box chain but it would only win a race between you and your buddy running a stock chain on identical saws. IMO.
Pioneerguy600


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

Looks to be round ground to me. That won't win any races.


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## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 22, 2010)

little possum said:


> Can you have race chain on the stock saws?



There's a few smaller shows that have stock saw and work saw classes and a good chain can make a big difference. And also a competent operator helps.


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

Here are a couple pics another forum member sent me. I'm trying to figure out what holds this chain together!!!!!


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Here are a couple pics another forum member sent me. I'm trying to figure out what holds this chain together!!!!!
> 
> Yea, that is pushing it a bit on the tie straps and rivet heads.
> Pioneerguy600


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Here are a couple pics another forum member sent me. I'm trying to figure out what holds this chain together!!!!!
> 
> Yea, that is pushing it a bit on the tie straps and rivet heads.
> Pioneerguy600



I see no rivet heads at all to hold it together. I'd think the whole chain would just fly apart immediately.


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## Walt41 (Sep 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> pioneerguy600 said:
> 
> 
> > I see no rivet head at all to hold it together. I'd think the whole chain would just fly apart immediately.
> ...


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## timberwolf (Sep 22, 2010)

Well the rivets tops realy don't hold it together, alot of it is just the expansion of the whole rivet head in the hole in the tie strap.

None the less that is an ugly chain, likely not very safe to run and the cutter shown is dull to boot.

All that grinding on the sides is for what? the chain does not look to be thinned but enough to take the chrome off and the cutter is well forward so it won't do much anyhow. Rivets only really become a problem when the cutters get taken way back and are thinned. There then is a point where the chain/bar will bind in the cut and thinning the bar and rivets then makes a difference.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 22, 2010)

Walt41 said:


> blsnelling said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I'm guessing that the fella who runs that stuff says "hold my beer, watch this" right before he fires up his death saw.
> ...


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## logging22 (Sep 22, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Walt41 said:
> 
> 
> > It might stay together when cutting softwood cants at competitions but I would not want to hit a knot.
> ...


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

Safe looking or not, I just found out that's a winning race chain with 20 races on it


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## timberwolf (Sep 22, 2010)

Here is a chain done up for smaller saw, works well in the 3 cube modified and stock saws up to 5 cube. 

When the cutters on the chain are small and well back like these then the rivets become a problem as they become as wide the kerf.

LOL! "winning" is very competition dependant.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Safe looking or not, I just found out that's a winning race chain with 20 races on it



When a chain is put together and the rivets expanded they expand back beyond the tie strap sides. They will take a little effort to remove the tie strap even once the rivet heads are ground off but on that chain even the tie straps have been ground thinner, I myself would stop when the rivet heads are flush with the tie strap sides, some dog boning is ok, this all helps with reducing the friction between the chain and the wood being cut.
Pioneerguy600


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> When a chain is put together and the rivets expanded they expand back beyond the tie strap sides. They will take a little effort to remove the tie strap even once the rivet heads are ground off but on that chain even the tie straps have been ground thinner, I myself would stop when the rivet heads are flush with the tie strap sides, some dog boning is ok, this all helps with reducing the friction between the chain and the wood being cut.
> Pioneerguy600



That's basically how the chain owner put it. It's kind of like a crank and flywheel, since there's a taper there.


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## redprospector (Sep 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Safe looking or not, I just found out that's a winning race chain with 20 races on it



That's racing. I've seen chains that I just shook my head at, but in the wood were fast. It's all about experimenting, and finding out what *you* can do to something off the shelf to make it the fastest it can be. To be the fastest you have to take it to the edge. That point right before everything goes to :censored:.

Andy


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## 2000ssm6 (Sep 22, 2010)

redprospector said:


> That's racing. I've seen chains that I just shook my head at, but in the wood were fast. It's all about experimenting, and finding out what *you* can do to something off the shelf to make it the fastest it can be. To be the fastest you have to take it to the edge. That point right before everything goes to :censored:.
> 
> Andy



Red, I know you have some pics for us!:dunno:


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## redprospector (Sep 22, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> Red, I know you have some pics for us!:dunno:



I haven't taken pictures of a race chain in a long time, they've all been seen before.

This is an example of pushing it past the edge. KX250 made 11 pieces out of an 88 DL .404 chain. It might have held up on a chainsaw, but why would you want to run .404 as a race chain on a chainsaw?






This one's been seen before. It's 3/8 .050





Back of the cutter. Ya'll don't be stealing my tricks now! 





Andy


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## 4000fixed (Sep 22, 2010)

*Full race chain? not quite.*



redprospector said:


> That's racing. I've seen chains that I just shook my head at, but in the wood were fast. It's all about experimenting, and finding out what *you* can do to something off the shelf to make it the fastest it can be. To be the fastest you have to take it to the edge. That point right before everything goes to :censored:.
> 
> Andy



I have to agree with reds quote. The chain I've been grinding for the local guys is by no means any thing close to what your describing as a race chain. But, they are almost twice as fast as a stock chain with out the time involved. Haven't found anyone in my neck of the woods serious enough to pay $150.00 to $250.00 for a real race chain.i have sold over 400 of them.
4000fixed


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## nmurph (Sep 23, 2010)

4k.....i can't see anything you are doing other than filing off the back of the cutter. you mean your chains are twice as fast as stock with only this mod?


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## MCW (Sep 23, 2010)

4000fixed said:


> $65.00 and have sold over 400 of them.



$65 a chain and all you do is grind the back off the cutter? As far as the sharpening side of things goes there is nothing special there, in fact it may not even cut any better than a stock chain with what is quite simply a standard round grind job. I can go out to my grinder right now and therefore turn a $20 chain into a $65 chain in minutes. Twice as fast as a standard chain without touching even the raker height and still having it round ground?
400 sold you say? Hmmm...


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> That's basically how the chain owner put it. It's kind of like a crank and flywheel, since there's a taper there.



That`s it, but the taper is not huge and it would not take a huge amount of side pull to pop the tie strap off, however the pull is in , sheer, so if the cutting pressure is constant without any great amount of shock the chain will continue to stay together.
Pioneerguy600


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## timberwolf (Sep 23, 2010)

> That's racing. I've seen chains that I just shook my head at, but in the wood were fast. It's all about experimenting, and finding out what you can do to something off the shelf to make it the fastest it can be. To be the fastest you have to take it to the edge. That point right before everything goes to .



I agree sometimes it is surprising how well things work despite their looks, but having an ungly chain be a real fast chain is very much the exception to the rule.

It is like port work, a rough port job with good numbers and tuning will still look fast when run against a stock saw but when putting that rough porting up against a saw with good clean porting work and other factors being equal the rough work loses. Same goes for chain, to be fast every cutter needs to cut at maximum efficiency if even one tooth is off the whole chain will cut less efficently and the stop watch will run longer. If you can look at a chain and see differences in angles and the shapes of cutters one tooth to the next there is no question that each tooth is not cutting at its personal best and hurting the chain as a whole. 

Could not agree more, "the fastest it will be" is so often the point right before failure... endless compromise between fast and reliable.


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## ironman_gq (Sep 23, 2010)

MCW said:


> $65 a chain and all you do is grind the back off the cutter? As far as the sharpening side of things goes there is nothing special there, in fact it may not even cut any better than a stock chain with what is quite simply a standard round grind job. I can go out to my grinder right now and therefore turn a $20 chain into a $65 chain in minutes. Twice as fast as a standard chain without touching even the raker height and still having it round ground?
> 400 sold you say? Hmmm...



It also looks like the top plate angle has been changed. It looks a little steeper like 40* instead of 30-35*


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## 4000fixed (Sep 23, 2010)

*race chain?*



ironman_gq said:


> It also looks like the top plate angle has been changed. It looks a little steeper like 40* instead of 30-35*



400 in 15 years. Yes, 40 degrees. The back being ground off just makes the tooth smaller with a little less drag. I guess the only reason there buying them is that there comparing them to what there using already. Same reason my grandfather traded his Clinton 2 man gear drive in for a Stihl Lightning back in the day. "it was faster". Might be able to get the same results or better by grinding the 40 when the tooth is almost gone. 
4000fixed


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## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> I agree sometimes it is surprising how well things work despite their looks, but having an ungly chain be a real fast chain is very much the exception to the rule.
> 
> It is like port work, a rough port job with good numbers and tuning will still look fast when run against a stock saw but when putting that rough porting up against a saw with good clean porting work and other factors being equal the rough work loses. Same goes for chain, to be fast every cutter needs to cut at maximum efficiency if even one tooth is off the whole chain will cut less efficently and the stop watch will run longer. If you can look at a chain and see differences in angles and the shapes of cutters one tooth to the next there is no question that each tooth is not cutting at its personal best and hurting the chain as a whole.
> 
> Could not agree more, "the fastest it will be" is so often the point right before failure... endless compromise between fast and reliable.



I agree. An ugly weld generally won't be strong, and an ugly chain generally won't be fast.
I was refering to looking at someone's chain and wondering "what the :censored: were they thinking when they did that?" 
It's the same in any racing. Someone thinks outside the box and comes up with some little something that gains just a wee little bit. Many times being covered up by a bunch of other stuff that makes it real hard to see just what makes it fast.
A person admitting to how little they really know about chain, and a strong desire to learn is a crucial step to learning how to make a faster chain.
A lot of people admit they don't know much, but don't have the desire.
Even more people are too proud to admit they don't know everything there is to know.

Me? I've still got a lot to learn. 

Andy


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Great thread guys but I find something inherently immoral about buying a race chain.....
> 
> 
> .....make the fastest chain you can.......and be happy with it.
> ...


 Plus, you could end up with an Art Martin, "decoy" chain like I did or a Walt Galer 15 minute chain. lol
Remember the "Great Chain Race" thread.
John


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## J.W Younger (Sep 23, 2010)

Red, on your work square ground do you every lower the rakers below .025 as the cutter gets shorter.
On mine I'm using a feeler gauge and .025 even tho the cutters are well back.300 or longer gullet and it seems to cut well.
I suppose it depends on type of wood and the saw,just wondering your opinion on it.


----------



## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> Red, on your work square ground do you every lower the rakers below .025 as the cutter gets shorter.
> On mine I'm using a feeler gauge and .025 even tho the cutters are well back.300 or longer gullet and it seems to cut well.
> I suppose it depends on type of wood and the saw,just wondering your opinion on it.



.025 is about as low as I ever go.

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Plus, you could end up with an Art Martin, "decoy" chain like I did or a Walt Galer 15 minute chain. lol
> Remember the "Great Chain Race" thread.
> John



Decoy chain. 
Was it ground in the shape of a duck? 

Andy


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

redprospector said:


> .025 is about as low as I ever go.
> 
> Andy


 I think it's better to go .020 and play with sprocket size instead, but I'm just a GTG'er. Lol
John


----------



## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I think it's better to go .020 and play with sprocket size instead, but I'm just a GTG'er. Lol
> John



.025 on a work chain, race chain won't get close to that. 
Well what does a decoy chain look like you old GTG cull? 

Andy


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## J.W Younger (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I think it's better to go .020 and play with sprocket size instead, but I'm just a GTG'er. Lol
> John


I tend to agree with you high chain speed and long thin chips is cool.I'm allways looking for advice from people with more experience tho.


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

redprospector said:


> .025 on a work chain, race chain won't get close to that.
> Well what does a decoy chain look like you old GTG cull?
> 
> Andy



Lol, a decoy chain is a sub par chain sent to a GTG cull.
John


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## troutfisher (Sep 23, 2010)

DAMMITT!!!! I thought Sam Decoy was Art Martin's cousin..... I paid three hundred bucks for that Decoy chain.........


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> DAMMITT!!!! I thought Sam Decoy was Art Martin's cousin..... I paid three hundred bucks for that Decoy chain.........


 Ha ha ha, I only paid 200 for my decoy chain. Yours must have been a Mallard and mine was a goose. Lol
BTW, how did it cut?


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## troutfisher (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Ha ha ha, I only paid 200 for my decoy chain. Yours must have been a Mallard and mine was a goose. Lol
> BTW, how did it cut?



It was fast in false wood, but it only looked fast in real wood.


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> It was fast in false wood, but it only looked fast in real wood.



Lol, so it was a half ast chain then.
John


----------



## troutfisher (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Lol, so it was a half ast chain then.
> John



 Yup halfast chain for a halfast operator.


----------



## romeo (Sep 23, 2010)

redprospector said:


> I agree. An ugly weld generally won't be strong, and an ugly chain generally won't be fast.
> I was refering to looking at someone's chain and wondering "what the :censored: were they thinking when they did that?"
> It's the same in any racing. Someone thinks outside the box and comes up with some little something that gains just a wee little bit. Many times being covered up by a bunch of other stuff that makes it real hard to see just what makes it fast.
> A person admitting to how little they really know about chain, and a strong desire to learn is a crucial step to learning how to make a faster chain.
> ...



Hey Andy, here is what Ive learned. I am going to drop off the bikesaw chain that I used to run (and Jay train wrecked) so you can copy it *exactly* and make us a pair of new ones. My latest chain that I filed was quick, but it didn't _feel_ right like the old one did. No chain I have run on it has really felt right since, I really miss that one. That chain is the standard for "the edge" as far as a bikesaw chain.

edit: I am only going to give you back half of the old chain, so when you make me a new one, I can make sure you didn't _forget_ any details.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Yup halfast chain for a halfast operator.


OooooKaay,since my hip waders nearly drowned my ass last time I had em on,I'm outta here..


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Yup halfast chain for a halfast operator.



Culls like us never get good chain from chain builders, much better to impersonate Donald Lambert or Gaston Dupreire. That way you get your chain for free. Lol
John


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## troutfisher (Sep 23, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Culls like us never get good chain from chain builders, much better to impersonate Donald Lambert or Gaston Dupreire. That way you get your chain for free. Lol
> John



Ya, no kidding. I've met one pro who gets entire bikesaws built for free.......sponsorship is a cool deal.


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Yup halfast chain for a halfast operator.


 Another thing you could do is contact Tommy Fales Jr. and say that you're Big Dutchman and he'll prolly send you his good stuff. Lol
John


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## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Ya, no kidding. I've met one pro who gets entire bikesaws built for free.......sponsorship is a cool deal.



Them factory guys get the best gear, best booze, and prettiest women until them I'm happy with my halfast gear, rot gut booze, and butter faced girls.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

BloodOnTheIce said:


> Them factory guys get the best gear, best booze, and prettiest women until them I'm happy with my halfast gear, rot gut booze, and butter faced girls.


 Like me your not kissing enough azz. Lol But I'm sure Fales , Cahoon, Ed or Woodsjunky would send me a chain if I asked them nicely if I only had a GTG to go to and split the winnings. Lol
John


----------



## little possum (Sep 23, 2010)

John Ill send ya super special race chain


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

little possum said:


> John Ill send ya super special race chain



Got pics, no decoys ok! lol
John Lambert
Box 4
Altin B.C V0W 1A0
Thanks Mang


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 23, 2010)

Looks like it's gonna be a great night to howl at the moon.
John


----------



## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

romeo said:


> Hey Andy, here is what Ive learned. I am going to drop off the bikesaw chain that I used to run (and Jay train wrecked) so you can copy it *exactly* and make us a pair of new ones. My latest chain that I filed was quick, but it didn't _feel_ right like the old one did. No chain I have run on it has really felt right since, I really miss that one. That chain is the standard for "the edge" as far as a bikesaw chain.
> 
> edit: I am only going to give you back half of the old chain, so when you make me a new one, I can make sure you didn't _forget_ any details.



Sean, that chain you did up the other day was pretty quick. You just need to leave a little more raker.
I'll build you a couple if ya need them. They might be ready by the end of next September. 

Andy


----------



## redprospector (Sep 23, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Ya, no kidding. I've met one pro who gets entire bikesaws built for free.......sponsorship is a cool deal.



I am sponsored by A&E Enterprises. Those tight wads won't give enough to pay entries...................Oh yeah, I own A&E. Never mind. I need to talk to the boss. 

Andy


----------



## troutfisher (Sep 23, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> They're advertising the full programme at a forthcoming show on Seven Central (Queensland/NT regional TV) ATM
> 
> Apart from Tommy and Dennis continuing to say "wood is wood" I have a hard time believing that a square chisel race chain sharpened for poplar or pine will standup cutting Eucs but i could be very wrong too.
> 
> Will/lumberjackau races in both speed and post rip events, you could drop him a PM.



How about some more info on the Aussie racing gear? What is the wood, comparable to US hardwoods? Any pics of race chain for this stuff?


----------



## J.W Younger (Sep 23, 2010)

Closest I will ever come to droppin a cookie is cutting the root spread off a stick of firewood thats too long.Still, chains intrest me and whats being done by the factorys and racers to improve em or make em faster is more intresting to me than modifying powerheads,but I like that as well.If a man was gonna build a chain from scratch would there be any advantage to using a narrower than.058 drive link?I belive all stihl chain is.063 and oregon is .058 unless its.063 guage,so is there any.050 gauge d/l available other than low profile?Narrowing.058 down to .050 sounds like a real PITA.
Not that I'm ever going to do it anyway,just gathering info..


----------



## pioneerguy600 (Sep 23, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> Closest I will ever come to droppin a cookie is cutting the root spread off a stick of firewood thats too long.Still, chains intrest me and whats being done by the factorys and racers to improve em or make em faster is more intresting to me than modifying powerheads,but I like that as well.If a man was gonna build a chain from scratch would there be any advantage to using a narrower than.058 drive link?I belive all stihl chain is.063 and oregon is .058 unless its.063 guage,so is there any.050 gauge d/l available other than low profile?Narrowing.058 down to .050 sounds like a real PITA.
> Not that I'm ever going to do it anyway,just gathering info..



There sure is, .050 is a common drive link for 3/8" chain by most makers. Stihl RSC in 3/8" is what I run on almost all of my production saws.
Pioneerguy600


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## J.W Younger (Sep 23, 2010)

pioneerguy600 said:


> There sure is, .050 is a common drive link for 3/8" chain by most makers. Stihl RSC in 3/8" is what I run on almost all of my production saws.
> Pioneerguy600


Not talkin about the guage but the width where the tie straps attach.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 23, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> Not talkin about the guage but the width where the tie straps attach.



Just re read your post, gotcha.
Pioneerguy600


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## the woolfe man (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the information.
I think ill just have to tinker around and experiment.
Thanks for the ideas


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## tdi-rick (Sep 24, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> How about some more info on the Aussie racing gear? What is the wood, comparable to US hardwoods? Any pics of race chain for this stuff?



I'm the wrong person to answer, lumberjackau is the man, but haven't seen Will on for a bit so I'll have ago.

The timber varies, depending on what's native to the area but it'll be Eucs of some description 

lumberjackau has a you-tube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/aussieracesaw and they've used 'Bloodwood' (Janka hardness, 8.8kN) at a number of his state's shows. You'll find that whatever Eucs they use, generally it'll be harder than Black Locust (Janka 7.6) and often harder than Hedge (Janka 9.1) too and a lot of Eucs are very dense.
To give an idea of how tough it may be, if they use something like Grey Ironbark for the post rip (common fence post timber) it has a Janka hardness of 16.

Chains in the speed events are a closely guarded secret, but in the post rip it's generally Oregon 21LP (I was told 'Pixel' chain, which is the Husky name) with the top plate angle re-filed running 18" bars (+-2") driven by 3120's and 088/880's.
The post rip is an endurance event, so the saw needs a bit of a different setup to a cookie cutter and the chain needs to be pretty robust. 

This is one of Wills vids of the Post Rip final at a big show that I've posted up a few times already.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MM0KcjOMgr8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MM0KcjOMgr8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 24, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> Closest I will ever come to droppin a cookie is cutting the root spread off a stick of firewood thats too long.Still, chains intrest me and whats being done by the factorys and racers to improve em or make em faster is more intresting to me than modifying powerheads,but I like that as well.If a man was gonna build a chain from scratch would there be any advantage to using a narrower than.058 drive link?I belive all stihl chain is.063 and oregon is .058 unless its.063 guage,so is there any.050 gauge d/l available other than low profile?Narrowing.058 down to .050 sounds like a real PITA.
> Not that I'm ever going to do it anyway,just gathering info..




Bar width is the same. Its whats outside the bar width that counts, so your driver width isn't ever touched.Some bars have been thinned also, but only marginally
Take a look at a chain, its the tie straps and tooth width(curf) that's played with.


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## ironman_gq (Sep 24, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> Bar width is the same. Its whats outside the bar width that counts, so your driver width isn't ever touched.Some bars have been thinned also, but only marginally
> Take a look at a chain, its the tie straps and tooth width(curf) that's played with.



If your talking about 3/8 chain than most of the stuff out there is .050. Husky seems to use the .058 on a lot of their stuff but most of it is .050. in .325 I mostly see .063 and .050. Not sure about .404 I never use it


----------



## adam32 (Sep 24, 2010)

nmurph said:


> 4k.....i can't see anything you are doing other than filing off the back of the cutter. you mean your chains are twice as fast as stock with only this mod?



I have one of his chains. Definitely faster then a stock off the roll chain, not twice as fast though, and not built to run against a full blown thinned, dog boned race chain, but it would work fine to run up against your buddy or at a small show or gtg...


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## J.W Younger (Sep 24, 2010)

ironman_gq said:


> If your talking about 3/8 chain than most of the stuff out there is .050. Husky seems to use the .058 on a lot of their stuff but most of it is .050. in .325 I mostly see .063 and .050. Not sure about .404 I never use it


I know nothing about .404 either, what I do know is carlton and oregon 3/8 chain uses a .058 drive link whether it is .050 or .058The portion of the link that rides in the bar will be either.050 or.058 depending on the guage.Both will have a.063 d/l in.063 guage.I don't have a stihl chain handy to measure but belive they are .063 in all three guages.This is all in 3/8th, no picco or low profile included.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## ronT2 (Sep 24, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> I know nothing about .404 either, what I do know is carlton and oregon 3/8 chain uses a .058 drive link whether it is .050 or .058*The portion of the link that rides in the bar will be either.050 or.058 depending on the guage.Both will have a.063 d/l in.063 guage.I don't have a stihl chain handy to measure but belive they are .063 in all three guages.*This is all in 3/8th, no picco or low profile included.
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.



Looks like you're right about the .058 gage. I just checked the one .058 gage stihl chain that I have and it is stepped down from .063. I don't have a .050 gage chain to check.


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## MCW (Sep 25, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> How about some more info on the Aussie racing gear? What is the wood, comparable to US hardwoods? Any pics of race chain for this stuff?



I am certainly not up on the race saw scene in Australia but did ask one of the larger Tasmanian Stihl dealers about whether they have any racing down in that part of Australia. Apparently Stihl provide saws for some sort of racing tour that follows the various shows around the state - at the end the saws are refurbished (with extremely low hours) and sold with full warranty at around $400 less than retail. It may even be along the lines of the post ripping that Rick posted earlier as a video.
The dealer did say that a few guys down that way self mod their saws but none of the pro fallers use modded saws. Basically all use stock MS660's and 395XP's.



J.W Younger said:


> I don't have a stihl chain handy to measure but belive they are .063 in all three guages.This is all in 3/8th, no picco or low profile included.
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.



Correct


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 25, 2010)

ironman_gq said:


> If your talking about 3/8 chain than most of the stuff out there is .050. Husky seems to use the .058 on a lot of their stuff but most of it is .050. in .325 I mostly see .063 and .050. Not sure about .404 I never use it




Up here .063 Stihl is almost extinct almost exclusive .050, Husky is .058.

what I was explaining was the driver width isn't played with, its above that that counts.The kerf.
The amount of friction created.
Make the "cut" narrower,and its less friction, meaning less energy= more speed.


----------



## little possum (Sep 25, 2010)

Why not run .325 for less friction, or is it too much of a risk because it is smaller?


----------



## J.W Younger (Sep 25, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> Up here .063 Stihl is almost extinct almost exclusive .050, Husky is .058.
> 
> what I was explaining was the driver width isn't played with, its above that that counts.The kerf.
> The amount of friction created.
> Make the "cut" narrower,and its less friction, meaning less energy= more speed.


This is easy to understand since all drive link will either be .058 or .063 a cutter attached to a .063 d/l will only be .0025 farther from the bar than a cutter attached to a.058 d/l because the difference in thickness is only .005".
If the D/L was.050 all the way to the top instead of the step down from either.063 or.058 the difference would be .0065.
When you speak of narrowing the cutter is all this done from inside the cutter or is some material removed from the outside of the side plate?I measured a new cutter and there is .008 taper front to rear with some of the taper on the inside.


----------



## J.W Younger (Sep 25, 2010)

All the pics of race chain I see are based on oregon .050 chain and by the looks of them most started as 72 lp. Is this due to the thickness of the crome/shape of or location of the raker ?


----------



## pioneerguy600 (Sep 26, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> This is easy to understand since all drive link will either be .058 or .063 a cutter attached to a .063 d/l will only be .0025 farther from the bar than a cutter attached to a.058 d/l because the difference in thickness is only .005".
> If the D/L was.050 all the way to the top instead of the step down from either.063 or.058 the difference would be .0065.
> When you speak of narrowing the cutter is all this done from inside the cutter or is some material removed from the outside of the side plate?I measured a new cutter and there is .008 taper front to rear with some of the taper on the inside.



Some chains have been ground on the outside of the cutter to give it sort of an offset at the front cutting edge, 15 degrees seems to work well to provide extra clearance and reduce drag.

Pioneerguy600


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 29, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I'm not in to racing, just production arboriculture. Everybody loves a fast chain though and I'd love to give one of those race chains a spin. I've got a collection photos of a lot of race chains sent in here. The work done is amazing.....for instance....grinding off the back of the tooth until the witness mark......the dog boning...the beveled edges of other parts of the tooth...the steep angles, etc.




I give huge credit to the artists that can do it, grinding with a machine is more of a science but also very effective especially when you want to change a few degrees for different wood.
The chassis work is the last 10ths of a second.


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 29, 2010)

gink595 said:


> I've never seen a race chain, can someone post some pics of a true race chain.



your saw porter makes a few chains, maybe you'll post a few pics of his.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 29, 2010)

I don't know if I'd call it race chain, but here's some GTG chain I made.
John
































And some basic round filed.


----------



## troutfisher (Sep 29, 2010)

Nice pics John! I see you're putting a slight top beak on some chains, not on others. Some say that it's faster in soft wood where It can survive. What do you think?


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 30, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Nice pics John! I see you're putting a slight top beak on some chains, not on others. Some say that it's faster in soft wood where It can survive. What do you think?


 The ones without the beak were work chains I think. It seems to cut faster with the side beak.
John


----------



## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2010)

Some of you so called race chain makers cannot even graduate from the work chain class.


----------



## troutfisher (Sep 30, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Some of you so called race chain makers cannot even graduate from the work chain class.



Please explain


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 30, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Please explain



I think the kid is just trying to tell us that we're all culls. Lol
John


----------



## timberwolf (Sep 30, 2010)

John, it does not take a lot of reading of the kids posts to pick out who the cull is... LOL



> 056 kid
> Arboristsite MVP
> 
> 
> ...


__________________
# 1


----------



## nmurph (Sep 30, 2010)

if 56 can hit a stick several times from 25yds with rocks, he would be playing baseball, not serving as bombing practice for hornets.


----------



## Gypo Logger (Sep 30, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> John, it does not take a lot of reading of the kids posts to pick out who the cull is... LOL
> 
> 
> __________________
> # 1



Lol, so what you're trying to tell us Brian, is that the Kid should get the Darwin Award?
Lol
John


----------



## timberwolf (Sep 30, 2010)

If one throws rocks at a hornets nest they should expect to get stung. I'd pretty much add that one up to karma, arsing off while the boss was working.


----------



## Bill G (Sep 30, 2010)

I wonder what he would have done if the bees would have stung the boss.

Bill


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 30, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> If one throws rocks at a hornets nest they should expect to get stung.




apple don't fall far does it.......


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 30, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> Nice pics John! I see you're putting a slight top beak on some chains, not on others. Some say that it's faster in soft wood where It can survive. What do you think?




You mean the beak on the top plate??? I don't know if its faster but it sure doesn't hang around long.
John adjusted or advanced the chain not far enough forward so the wheel hits under neath the top plate.It happens very easily and I've done it a million times.
Also all the race chain I've seen has a more aggressive side plate/top plate angle.

If I can explain myself properly, the "line" where the side plate and top plate angle meets should be more steep, downward.So if it was a file, tip your top hand up.
Grinders have to modified to do this or it starts grinding into the pawls and connector links.Mine are severely marked from the previous owner, Jokers.

Okay maybe I've put a few scratches in it



That round filed looks aggressive and think it would cut well.


----------



## Terry Syd (Sep 30, 2010)

I keep hearing references to 'chip clearance'. What would be a symptom of inadequate chip clearance?

I've assumed that a chain filling up with chips would not allow the cutters to do their job, so would a symptom be an increase in chain speed without a increase in cutting speed?

Is there more to the chip clearance issue, perhaps directing the chips away from the cutters?


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 30, 2010)

Terry Syd said:


> I keep hearing references to 'chip clearance'. What would be a symptom of inadequate chip clearance?
> 
> I've assumed that a chain filling up with chips would not allow the cutters to do their job, so would a symptom be an increase in chain speed without a increase in cutting speed?
> 
> Is there more to the chip clearance issue, perhaps directing the chips away from the cutters?


Low gullets and yes directing the chip in upward (were upside down now) direction to keep the cutter clear.


----------



## Terry Syd (Sep 30, 2010)

OK, so is there a symptom during the cutting that would give an indication of poor chip clearance?


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 30, 2010)

Terry Syd said:


> OK, so is there a symptom during the cutting that would give an indication of poor chip clearance?


Yes the chain loads up.
How do they cure that, I'm not sure because it has never happened to me.



I don't own a fast enough saw to have that problem. I've heard of the racers having to lift the saw a touch to clear the chips


----------



## troutfisher (Sep 30, 2010)

Terry Syd said:


> OK, so is there a symptom during the cutting that would give an indication of poor chip clearance?



My expirience has been that the saw stops feeding into the wood like it should. A chain that is clearing out good will respond instantly to changes in how hard you're pushing or pulling. The link between the saw's rpm and the operator's ear is the chain.


----------



## J.W Younger (Sep 30, 2010)

I have a little different take on some of this but don't have enough experience or confidence to chime in.
I know there are guys out there sitting on a lot of knowledge but understand if they don't wanna share it.
I have an untouched loop of CL used to compare my work chain with .I think
it might be faster than stock just by removeing some slag at the back of the gullet.
This is a good thread and I hope it continues.


----------



## gink595 (Sep 30, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> your saw porter makes a few chains, maybe you'll post a few pics of his.



Maybe I will


----------



## PLAYINWOOD (Sep 30, 2010)

I knew you'd both come through

thinned? hard to tell.Machine ground,
a little boning,
no work on the back of the tooth?

aggressive lookin bite, 
I'd love to try it.


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## logging22 (Sep 30, 2010)

I too would like to try it. Looks great. Still learning. Making the horsepower just need to learn how to grind.


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## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2010)

nmurph said:


> if 56 can hit a stick several times from 25yds with rocks, he would be playing baseball, not serving as bombing practice for hornets.



Hitting a stick 3 times in a period of 30 or so minutes aint gonna get anyone to the world series. .


I am also just devastated to hear that I am the cull of AS. . completely gone, cant even keep myself together. .


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## logging22 (Sep 30, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Hitting a stick 3 times in a period of 30 or so minutes aint gonna get anyone to the world series. .
> 
> 
> I am also just devastated to hear that I am the cull of AS. . completely gone, cant even keep myself together. .



What makes you a cull? Me no understand?


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## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2010)

Some uppity dudes say I am, im not gonna get too worried about it though. .

Typical "if I aint seen it, I dont like it, & if I cant do it no one can. ." type stuff.


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## nmurph (Sep 30, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Hitting a stick 3 times in a period of 30 or so minutes aint gonna get anyone to the world series. .
> 
> 
> I am also just devastated to hear that I am the cull of AS. . completely gone, cant even keep myself together. .



maybe i don't know what your definition of a stick is. when i think stick, i think some thing the size of my thumb. i would be happy to hit it one time at 25yds........and i'm (was) a pretty decent BB player.

hornets will track you for hundreds of yards. just when you think they have stopped chasing you, powwwwwww!!!!!! it feels like getting hit with a stick....i remember my cousin shooting a nest with a shotgun while we were squirrel hunting. as the ol' saying goes about bears; you don't have to be the fastest person in the wood, just be faster than the guy next to you.


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## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2010)

more like the size of my wrist.


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 30, 2010)

nmurph said:


> maybe i don't know what your definition of a stick is. when i think stick, i think some thing the size of my thumb. i would be happy to hit it one time at 25yds........and i'm (was) a pretty decent BB player.
> 
> hornets will track you for hundreds of yards. just when you think they have stopped chasing you, powwwwwww!!!!!! it feels like getting hit with a stick....i remember my cousin shooting a nest with a shotgun while we were squirrel hunting. as the ol' saying goes about bears; you don't have to be the fastest person in the wood, just be faster than the guy next to you.



Lol, if a bear attacks, just throw rocks at your partner, that way the bear knows who's side you're on.
John


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## tlandrum (Sep 30, 2010)

remind me not to go into bear country with john lol


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 1, 2010)

Lil Jackie in the above picture putting the run on the grizz almost got it today when a Hawk almost got the little basterd. Glad I was there. I think Jacky has nine lives and he's only spent four. Lol
John


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2010)

bad ass country there!



I bet those bears can really file a race chain, you should bring them down to the lower 48 so they can hold tutorials with the non filers. Who knows maybe some will get culled out for scoring too low the BBRFT test. (Basic Bear Race Filing Technique)


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## madhatte (Oct 1, 2010)

I can't rep any of you guys again just yet. Too bad. The last page has been a hoot.


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## AUSSIE1 (Oct 1, 2010)

tlandrum2002 said:


> remind me not to go into bear country with john lol



I'd take the bears....I'd be more concerned if he called you his "partner"!


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 1, 2010)

Any man worth his salt would have ran and rescued his dog. Mans best friend ya know.
Thats why the dog stays in the car with me and the wimmins go out for the pictures.
Momma's just inside that bush ,a minute before she was walking across the road with twins, my photography luck though, a dollar short and a day late


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## gink595 (Oct 1, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> I knew you'd both come through
> 
> thinned? hard to tell.Machine ground,
> a little boning,
> ...



That chain is thinned & hand filed, and all kinds of work to the back of the cutter. I showed you mine now it your turn to show me your saw porters chain


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 1, 2010)

Which porter?



Besides my macro setting isn't doing its macro thing very well


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## gink595 (Oct 1, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> Which porter?
> 
> 
> 
> Besides my macro setting isn't doing its macro thing very well



I don't care which one, the fast stuff, I wanna see the fast chains, that okay on the Macro setting, mine isn't worth a flip either, I took about 20 pics just to get that one, if there's a will there's a way:greenchainsaw:


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 1, 2010)

gink595 said:


> I don't care which one, the fast stuff, I wanna see the fast chains, that okay on the Macro setting, mine isn't worth a flip either, I took about 20 pics just to get that one, if there's a will there's a way:greenchainsaw:




I've tried everything,setting the camera on a counter and putting a white sheet behind, it don't matter it sucks.

BTW I don't have any fast stuff, the southern guys have that market sewn up, we Canucks just weld nails on chain and hope for the best.


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## gink595 (Oct 1, 2010)

Hahaha, I think I ended up covering up part of the flash with my finger so it wouldn't white wash the whole chain, the best I found was to hold the camera as far away as I could and then zoom in until it cleared up, and then hope for the best, there was only about 2 that were decent enough to post.


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 1, 2010)

and one little shake......I have a picture of a wall or ceiling
I've even stacked books up to set the camera on...


Just tried again and the batteries went dead with no spares, I go to the store,get gas,root beer, shoot the chit with a farmer, heavy equipment Auto Trader,and forget batteries.


It just ain't meant to be man


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 1, 2010)

not very good I know


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## redprospector (Oct 1, 2010)

PLAYINWOOD said:


> not very good I know



Is that one of Ed's chains?

Andy


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## troutfisher (Oct 2, 2010)

How about frozen wood? does anyone use different chain for racing in frozen wood? There are a few shows up in Canada in the dead of winter.....

http://www.youtube.com/user/chainsman1#p/u/27/3LzW-SP2qEA


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## Fish (Oct 2, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Finding someone to make you a race chain is not easy. BTW, a race chain may look something like this.



Look's just like the "PowerSharp"!!!!


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## Fish (Oct 2, 2010)

Where is Walt Galer when you need him!!!!??????


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 2, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> How about frozen wood? does anyone use different chain for racing in frozen wood? There are a few shows up in Canada in the dead of winter.....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/chainsman1#p/u/27/3LzW-SP2qEA




More aggressive top plate angle and LOW rakers for it to even bite has been my fire wooding experience.

Come thaw time you can't use that chain anymore, it's too low and vibrates like crazy.
The game plan is to burn the entire chain during the deep cold season.

As for winter racing consists of, last one to the wood stove, buys.


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## PLAYINWOOD (Oct 2, 2010)

redprospector said:


> Is that one of Ed's chains?
> 
> Andy


 Possibly


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## wooddog (Oct 2, 2010)

Fish said:


> Look's just like the "PowerSharp"!!!!



That explains why it's two to three times more expensive then good ole regular chain. It's racechain :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange: http://www.oregonchain.com/images_consumer/products/powersharp_chain_detail.jpg


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## Fish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes, the powersharp stock chain cuts like a scalded dog, and the neighbor
ladies came over and tossed their panties at me and the tree I was cutting,
one of them tossed her teeth as well.......

I believe Walt Galer moved out West and found him a job at Oregon/Blount!!!!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 2, 2010)

Fish said:


> Yes, the powersharp stock chain cuts like a scalded dog, and the neighbor
> ladies came over and tossed their panties at me and the tree I was cutting,
> one of them tossed her teeth as well.......
> 
> I believe Walt Galer moved out West and found him a job at Oregon/Blount!!!!



That's a dangerous situation Fish when the girls do the panty toss, especially while cutting down trees. Did you buck the crotch out? Lol They were trying to land the panties on your bar I'll bet. Brings a whole new dimension to "panty waste."
John


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## Fish (Oct 2, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> Did you buck the crotch out?
> John



Well, sir, I am a gentleman!!!!!!!

So I cannot say......


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## little possum (Oct 2, 2010)

Got a look at some race chains. Amazing the amount of work that goes in them. And then the way they cut :jawdrop:


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## Tzed250 (Oct 3, 2010)

.


I like to take pictures of chain...






.


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## J.W Younger (Oct 3, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> I like to take pictures of chain...
> ...


nice,any possible way you can do a top and left side view?


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## troutfisher (Oct 3, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> I like to take pictures of chain...
> ...



That's a nice looking cutter! Your work?


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## parrisw (Oct 3, 2010)

Here is my first attempt at a goofy file.


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## Tzed250 (Oct 3, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> That's a nice looking cutter! Your work?



I wish....Bushweasel actually ground that one...

I can hold my own with a square file though..


.


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## J.W Younger (Oct 3, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Here is my first attempt at a goofy file.


Looks pretty darn good,not much side plate filed but only whats above the raker counts.
Hows it cut?


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## parrisw (Oct 3, 2010)

J.W Younger said:


> Looks pretty darn good,not much side plate filed but only whats above the raker counts.
> Hows it cut?



Cuts quite well actually, it's on a 357xp.


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## troutfisher (Oct 3, 2010)

We interupt this thread to bring you THE coolest car in the history of the world....the General Lee....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFl1ZWdMgI

We now return to your regular scheduled Arboristsite.


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## Walt41 (Oct 3, 2010)

At first I thought this was madness but, now I'm rethinking everything I thought I knew about chains. At the very least I am going to teach myself square filing over the winter.


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## AUSSIE1 (Oct 3, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> We interupt this thread to bring you THE coolest car in the history of the world....the General Lee....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFl1ZWdMgI
> 
> We now return to your regular scheduled Arboristsite.



Would have gone through nearly as many tyres as they did cars! 

The original drifter!


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## ronT2 (Oct 3, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Here is my first attempt at a goofy file.



That looks really good Will. I have a harder time finding the corner of the cutter with the corner of the file with a goofy file than I do with a double bevel file.


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## ronT2 (Oct 3, 2010)

troutfisher said:


> We interupt this thread to bring you THE coolest car in the history of the world....the General Lee....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFl1ZWdMgI
> 
> We now return to your regular scheduled Arboristsite.



Where's Daisy??? :love1:


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## troutfisher (Oct 3, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> Where's Daisy??? :love1:



Aussie1's avatar is pretty close


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## parrisw (Oct 3, 2010)

ronT2 said:


> That looks really good Will. I have a harder time finding the corner of the cutter with the corner of the file with a goofy file than I do with a double bevel file.



Thanks!


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## mweba (Nov 12, 2012)

Bumpiddee bump


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## Fish (Nov 12, 2012)

mweba said:


> Bumpiddee bump



Yes!!!!


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## mweba (Nov 12, 2012)

Fish said:


> Yes!!!!



Dang good thread eh?! I miss a couple people in it.


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## flushcut (Nov 13, 2012)

opcorn:


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2012)

Bill G said:


> You plugging a non sponsor ohhhhhhhhhhh say it aint so



So, when are you going to man up?:chatter::notrolls2:


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2012)

Bill G said:


> Man up for what. I call a spade a spade. The only one chattering is you Brad.



Who's chattering?:chatter: :bringit:


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2012)

Bill G said:


> You are, you got something to say then say it if not be quiet



Do you EVER have anything positive to say? You're the one that came in here looking for trouble, dragging up 2 year old crap. Then you try to project it on me. Pathetic!


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## Dennis Cahoon (Nov 13, 2012)

Better watch it Brad!.....ole Bill G. might teach you another lesson!!!!......Hahahahahahaha!


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## blsnelling (Nov 13, 2012)

Why don't you come teach it to me, lol. Just make sure and bring a 250 with a race chain for me BTW, flattered that you're still saving that picture of me! Hahahahahaha


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