# Your Arboriculture: Full or Partial



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 19, 2008)

In post #330 of this thread here...

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=58635

I asked about what services tree companies or workers offered, or did not offer. After reams of talk about climbing in trees, it was interesting to see that the thread went silent as soon as the question arose about what other arboriculture services are involved.

It can be useful for others to know what we offer or don't offer. Not just the "what" part, but the "why" part.

In my case, one thing I dropped entirely was my pesticide applications and pesticide consultant's license. Ocassionally, I'll review with a college class or something, but in Oregon, pesticide application specialists have started to emerge, focusing on that niche more and more. I find it very convenient to let them handle that niche.

Here's a definition of Arboriculture...



> Arboriculture is the selection, planting, care, and removal of individual trees, shrubs, vines, and other perennial woody plants and the study of how they grow and respond to cultural practices and the environment.



Here were a few questions from the other thread...

Do you climb?
Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
Do you study the environment: both lawn, small plants and soil?
Do you apply pesticides?
Do you select and plant trees? 
Do you consult for trees?
Do you consult for trees in the full landscape?
How limited is your service based on the description above for aboriculture?
With Vines, Shrubs - do you understand the arboriculture needs for them?

Which part do you like working with best?


----------



## BostonBull (Jan 19, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Here were a few questions from the other thread...
> 
> Do you climb?
> Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
> ...



Ill go first.

Yes all foreman in the co. climb. Not only pruning but removals and climbing for the crane. lot of the ground hands here are also proficient climbers.

Yes we prune everything from Boxwood, and Privet, to Jap. Maples and fruit trees.

We don't do very much with lawns. We do pay attention and keep up on the latest methods, and problems associated with them. We do study perennials, and of course soil. Soil is such an integral part of trees how could you ignore it?

Yes we apply Pesticides, and herbicides when needed.

It's not a HUGE part of our outfit but we do select and plant plenty of trees throughout the year. We have one of the best nurseries in the North East in our backyard, so we are lucky in that sense.

Yes we have a great reputation, especially with builders. We do a ton of consulting work for new projects to help protect existing trees. We will also consult with our customers on ANY questions they may have, trying to educate as many people as possible about PROPER Arboriculture.

Of course why only focus on trees that are in the lawn area, or the giant shade tree by the road. Those trees up by the house in the new $50K, patio area are just as important.


Vines and shrubs are just as important as trees. As an MCA we were required to know EVERY Vine, Shrub, and Tree that is in our State. To have them on the MCA test tells potential MCA's that its important. It is great when you can go to a property and give advice on everything. Not saying, we only focus on trees, BUT you can give Joe Schmo Landscaping a call.

That what you were looking for?


----------



## Mikecutstrees (Jan 19, 2008)

I have a small company, I climb and I have one full time ground worker. I do ground level pruning, I mostly concentrate on the trees, small plants and such I refer to a landscaper in the area who does very nice work. I don't apply pesticides because of the laws/ permits etc, and I don't have extensive knowledge in that area. Also I don't because I stay very busy with my other tree work. I don't select or plant trees because I don't have the equipment to do so, But I will make recommendations as to what trees would be suitable or do well on the site. I often consult as part of my original estimate on how what trees to keep/ remove/ prune and how they will adapt to construction etc. I guess my service is somewhat limited but I like to stay specialized and not be running around doing many different things and having equipment sitting idle for long periods of time. And I do understand the arboriculture needs for shrubs and vines. The parts I like doing the best are pruning big beautiful trees that can really benefit from pruning. Example I pruned about 10 large oaks (16-32" diameter) that had never been pruned before. They were loaded with deadwood and were a mess. After we were done they looked like a million bucks that was rewarding. Also I enjoy challenging removals. Where bucket truck couldn't reach and where you have to rig stuff down and be creative to do a good safe job. We also do stump grinding as part of our tree services. Hope this answers the q's sorry about the long response. Mike


----------



## clearance (Jan 19, 2008)

I am at a loss to check anything here M.D. I remove, trim and top trees around powerlines. My trade ticket says "utility arborist", I don't see a category for that essential service, one of the most important jobs in the tree industry. Perhaps you could add a category to your poll.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 19, 2008)

clearance said:


> I am at a loss to check anything here M.D. I remove, trim and top trees around powerlines. My trade ticket says "utility arborist", I don't see a category for that essential service, one of the most important jobs in the tree industry. Perhaps you could add a category to your poll.


10 options is the poll limit.

But your are doing what I hoped the "other" would do, is just write it down in reply - the unlimited section 

BostonBull...

"Yes" to your question. Just trying to see what people do or don't, and comments as to why the choice, if helpful.

At least in Oregon, when I read the Yellow Pages 15 years ago for Tree Service, the services listed were basically view clearing, pruning, removals, etc.. But in the past 4 to 8 years or so, I've seen more added in like lot mowing, irrigation, planting or landscaping. So that the advertising is becoming less stereotypical, but just an individual thing. One thing that came to mind, was that maybe those same companies used to offer various services, but didn't mention them in ads, feeling the need to fit an image.

That brings to mind a whole different matter that I'd never thought about before - women arborists. I'm curious about if a woman arborist company owner, would feel the need to use an image of a male climber in an ad? It's just that I've never seen an ad before with other than a male climber with a chainsaw. I wonder how much of a difference it would make to homeonwers and how much they would let the image affect their decision. It really should not matter. But somehow I think it would make a difference to people.


----------



## beastmaster (Jan 20, 2008)

The company I work for does everything, except lawn care and application of pesticides. We are knowledgeable about grasses as trimming or removing a tree can effect the lawn also. We don't apply pesticides as there are experts in the Field who can do that better then us. We do consulting work in all areas of arbor care so were knowledgeable even in things we may not do. We shy away from doing cabling and bracing these days because of the liability. We have lots of heavy equipment and a beast so we do a lot of demo also. I am a crew leader and a C.A and study a lot, my boss and our superintend are experts. We can and do, do it all.


----------



## Brush Hog (Jan 21, 2008)

I do full landscape but over past year gotten into tree work for a add on service and going after my arborist license. About the only things I don't do is pesticides and irrigation. My neighbor is a salesman for one of the top squirt/fert. companies so I just refer to him and he hands out my business cards. Once I get my license I may drop everything else and just do tree's but I don't know at this point.


----------



## John464 (Jan 21, 2008)

High canopy service with lifts or climbing 
Cabling and bracing 
Consulting for trees 
Pesticide applications 
Care of shrubs and vines 
Fruit trees 

I checked these in your poll. The answers after Fruit trees on, are all for landscapers. I do not do landscaping but refer landscapers to my customers to take care of these things we do not do. If I started to tell my guys today we are going to do 20 yards of mulch at the Smith residence today, they would start quitting on me. I pay my employees to care for trees and I can not possibly be able to price a job and get the bid anyhow by wheelbarrowing mulch or dirt with my current crews. Lets be realistic here. Unless the tree man is starved for work he is not doing that kind of mindless activity.

I use to own 3 divisions. A nursery, a landscape division, and a tree care division. They were divisions. Each has to be run differently to be effectived unless you are a small operation. Today we only operate in tree care.


----------



## BostonBull (Jan 21, 2008)

John464 said:


> The answers after Fruit trees on, are all for landscapers. I do not do landscaping but refer landscapers to my customers to take care of these things we do not do. If I started to tell my guys today we are going to do 20 yards of mulch at the Smith residence today, they would start quitting on me. I pay my employees to care for trees and I can not possibly be able to price a job and get the bid anyhow by wheelbarrowing mulch or dirt with my current crews. Lets be realistic here. Unless the tree man is starved for work he is not doing that kind of mindless activity.
> 
> I use to own 3 divisions. A nursery, a landscape division, and a tree care division. They were divisions. Each has to be run differently to be effectived unless you are a small operation. Today we only operate in tree care.



I respectfully disagre with this statement. Arborists should manage the soil aorund trees as it has different needs and prescriptions from other landscape areas. There arent too many landscape co's. around here that know how to plant. Too deep and usually have mulch volcanoes knee deep.

Not flaming, just my opinion.


----------



## John464 (Jan 21, 2008)

BostonBull said:


> Too deep and usually have mulch volcanoes knee deep.



that is absolutely correct. that is why I work closely with only a select few landscapers who are just as educated in landscaping as we are in trees. 

Just as one is to select the qualified tree care operation they have to equally scrutinize their landscaper as well. With literally 1,000 of landscapers to chose from believe it or not there are actually some that know their stuff. If a customer comes to me or I see a need for these landscaping concerns by referring to my preferred list it usually develops properly.


----------



## BostonBull (Jan 21, 2008)

John464 said:


> that is absolutely correct. that is why I work closely with only a select few landscapers who are just as educated in landscaping as we are in trees.
> 
> Just as one is to select the qualified tree care operation they have to equally scrutinize their landscaper as well. With literally 1,000 of landscapers to chose from believe it or not there are actually some that know their stuff. If a customer comes to me or I see a need for these landscaping concerns by referring to my preferred list it usually develops properly.



I agree 100%. We routinely refer to a great landscape/nursery co. in our area. We dont plan designs, walk/patios, or other landscape areas. They also get the referral on HUGE planting jobs.


----------



## ronnyb (Jan 21, 2008)

To answer one of MD's questions. My wife and I own a tree and landscape business. We both have degrees in horticulture and arboriculture, both are certified arborists, licensed pesticide applicators, and master gardeners. We find that we sell more tree jobs when I give the estimates than when she does. On the other hand, we sell more landscape jobs when she deals with the clients (unless it's along the lines of installing patios or retaining walls). People have the misconception that a woman isn't able to perform these manly duties. Did I mention that my wife has been to ArborMaster, and has been climbing for the last 12 years? I'm going to bet that she's more qualified to be doing tree work than 85% of the people on this site. Climbing big trees doesn't make you an arborist.


----------



## John464 (Jan 21, 2008)

I agree Dan, well said and nothing against MD, but I think you really have to be in business of tree care to understand how different it needs to be operated when you start working on those large trees you can't reach with the orchard ladder. Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint. It is best not to be a sub to a landscape co. but rather be a referrence... or if you want to do both, run two seperate divisions under one company.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 21, 2008)

John464 said:


> but I think you really have to be in business of tree care to understand how different it needs to be operated when you start working on those large trees you can't reach with the orchard ladder.



You mean different, as in if we prune to save the branch collar on a 20 foot tree, that we'd remove the collar in the big tree? 

Those would be some good points to get the Becoming an Arborist thread rolling again. 

But back to the aspects of arboriculture, someone mentioned that planting was for landscapers. I think that planting can easily be arboriculture. And when I listed planting in the poll, size wasn't listed.

Been a while since I opened the ISA study guide, but wasn't tree planting in there?



> I'm not saying this to run down M.D. but I have been reading him for some time now....and to me it looks like he is saying he would like to get the big tree work and then supervise and sub it out.....because he has the book knowledge



Actually, if you reread threads like the other one, you will notice reference to the referral link on my home page. I send most of the big tree work to a Certified Arborist who specializes in high climbing.

But... to get this clear. I can easily match your knowledge and your experience. In near 30 years, I've never quit working with big trees or little trees.

*Really, what you are saying, is that if I sub-contracted your service, and paid you your regular rate, and let you figure out how to prune most of the big tree your were in, that you would automatically revert to a sub-standard incompetent situation, even though the tree you were in was mainly in your hands.

Think about it. Because when I hire high climbing Certified Arborists, they are basically on their own. If anything, I follow their lead, since I'll take the ropes in hand.*

You see, it's not like all I have left for options is buying climbing gear so I can return to climbing in big trees. I can also oversee the management of a university campus - all the trees, all the turf, all the plants, all the pesticide applications: even the greenhouse operation.

I could coordinate or build a country club golf course from scratch. Grading, drainage, irrigation system, drainage. The entire thing minus the clubhouse. Greens, fairways, tees - the whole shot. I'm not sure if I could manage an entire Park Bureau, but definitely a large park, or multiple parks.

So when I hear you talk about a limited portion of tree work like it's some kind of gauge that is supposed to erase the abilities and experience of the heavyweights in the green industry, I have to sort of step back and scratch my head.

Maybe I don't think like you, because I never worked in just one niche of the green industry. The route I took sort of involved covering all the bases all the time.

I guess I hear you as a counterpart to a landscaper, telling some arborists that they don't know how to plant some trees, because they only plant one size. Something like that.


----------



## John464 (Jan 21, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> You mean different, as in that if I prune to save the branch collar on a 20 foot tree, that I'd remove the collar in the big tree?
> 
> Or do you mean that when deadwood is removed from a 100 foot tree, that deadwood should be left in a 30 foot tree because it's different.


read my post again. 

"_Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint_."

the difference is in the business not at the task per say


----------



## treeseer (Jan 21, 2008)

I dunno guys, I see no clear division in that list. I checked them all because even though I am first and foremost an arborist, in my mind I am not offering competent and comprehensive tree care without managing the soil and the plant associates. I branched out from "pure" climbing and cutting because I tried to spec or sub other tree care work, but it fell through too often, and the trees I was responsible for paid the price.

I probably could not do mulching etc. so much if I did not have cheap teenage labor though. But still it is arboriculture. Shrubs and vines belong in the arborists' market share, if they have the skill and the sense to grab it.

Personally, I draw the line at cutting the grass. But that's just me.

 

O and I do agree with Dan; no one is credibly doing high canopy work if they do not know high canopy work, from experience.

O and clearance, read #1. You're in, brother.


----------



## clearance (Jan 21, 2008)

Utility tree guys, the most important and essential treeworkers out there, toot, toot, yay, the top ones. Blowing my own horn for once, but can anyone deny it? No power, no A.S. to even talk about it.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 21, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Personally, I draw the line at cutting the grass. But that's just me.



That's my cutoff point too, mainly because the migrants infiltrated that aspect and drove the wage too low. So low, that college enrollment for turf management is about 40% lower than it should be for as much as Portland, Oregon, has grown. No money left in the job for education, except in a very few companies. Sure is nice that some outfits still promote the education.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 21, 2008)

John464 said:


> read my post again.
> 
> "_Certain similarities of knowledge is required to excell at either or(landscaping or tree care) however the operational approach is much different from a business standpoint_."
> 
> the difference is in the business not at the task per say



John, it's under control. I've been in the business a long time - when the jobs are done, the climbing arborists have every dollar they they need, and all the time they need in the tree. I can't recall one time of even suggesting to a Certified Arborist high-climber come down prematurely. And the work is usually completed within 60 minutes of what I estimated.

Had the customer called them first and never known me, those climbers would have done the same trees just as well. In most cases, I just refer the limited big tree work directly to the climbers and let them contract the whole thing.

But if there is other landscaping involved, the customers benefit my having my skills and experience included, so that they are not limited to merely a high-climbing big tree service, but gain the benefits of having every phase of knowledge and experienced.

As I've said before - and it wasn't just joking - when our company is involved, the service and knowledge is 300% of what some climbing service offer. Because our company is involved regularly in all phases.

You know what you make me think of.... You make me think of a hypothetical situation, that a golf course superintendent would try to tell me that I would not know how to manage turf, because I ended my 7 years of country club work (even though turf management is still part of my business). Sure, there's a few new fungicides, and a few new machines, but it's not like the end of the world.

Can you see such a rediculous superintendant believing that since I don't sharpen reels anymore, or core aerate greens, or adjust bed knives, that it would neutralize comprehension of what's going on?

I really wish that some of you climbers had more exposure and experience in the many other phases, so it would be easier to explain.

Some climbers have had extensive multi-faceted experience, but those are not the representative core of climbers. Then others, a significant number of pros, are not so multi-faceted in the green trade, and although they are masters at their niche, it's a bit more like having been developed in a single test tube or beaker. 

On the other hand, the few individuals who have been trained across-the-board in a myriad of green trade niches, have experienced a situation comparable to being developed within an entire laboratory. They are reprentative of the entire collection of experiments - truly broad spectrum.


----------



## lxt (Jan 22, 2008)

Of the choices offered Id have to say Ive engaged in all of them at one time or another & still do but in a limited manner, the truth is some of what is mentioned in my area has had the infiltration of low bidders take over so I dont get much work in those areas.

I think many have chosen specialty work but will cross over into the other fields only when the pay is commensurate, IMO.



LXT...............


----------



## D Mc (Jan 22, 2008)

In our particular case, we focus on the climbing jobs as much as possible because that is my specialty. It makes no sense for me to be mowing lawns or digging holes. Our clientele is large enough now that we can start to pick and choose. All things considered we want to expand my energies in what I am good at (and we have a serious lack of capable climbers here). 

I understand your concerns, Mario, with the climber who finds a niche and doesn't want to expand his knowledge beyond that point and I don't have an answer for how to correct that. The gaining of knowledge on how everything interrelates is not only fascinating but very useful. Too many people (in all aspects) neglect to do this. 

The sad fact is I have seen very few truly talented climbers, so those who do have this special talent should focus on this; much as a skilled heart surgeon should focus on hearts and not be a GP even though that is an important aspect of health care as well.

Bottom line, find what you are good at and spend as much time in that area as you can. This would maximize the efficient useage of time for each individual.

D Mc


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 22, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> M.D. you are working under a mistaken assumption that we don't understand some of the phases of arboriculture in your poll......and that we need them explained to us! LOL.
> 
> .......When we say our tree crews are paid too much to spend time spreading mulch....we are not saying spreading mulch is a bad thing..or that spreading mulch isn't arboriculture.....or that planting trees isn't arboriculture.
> 
> This thread and poll reeks of the mistaken assumption that being 'partial' in the arboricultural services our businesses provide equates to us being 'partial' in our understanding of arboriculture when if fact, that is not the case at all.



Treeco..

I said "some"... So I'm neither making assumption, nor mistaken. My comment was not all-inclusive. But I suspect that your attention to what I wrote may not have been all-attentive. That kind of inattention, if you take it up in a tree, can be damaging.

And that's exactly the kind of testing and detail I look for in climbers. Your statement would have disqualified you as an applicant for our company. Had you responded as "some of us" instead of the "we" in your reply, it may have made more sense.

But since I already wrote in one of my recent replies to the effect that some climbers know many phases, your reply amounted to no more than re-writing what I already wrote. But why you attempted to make it look like you said it first, and that I didn't, seems kind of whacky.

My guess is that you don't read my other replies, and proceed partially equipped into the discussion. Not exactly a promotional bell-ringer if you were hoping to try and express some wisdom.

But when you try and tell me what I'd already written, as if I didn't write it and it was like knowledge that was going to die with you, you've got to be kidding yourself if you expect me to heed anything you have to offer. That approach is a fast way to cut-off anything you have to offer.

Maybe maybe some explaining is needed, like how to read what's written.

Most of my reply here is not even for you.

The user stats on AS show that 2/3 of the readers are visitors. Many times like this, I just write to make sure people who are reading will go back and see what I already wrote, so they don't get side-tracked thinking someone like you just introduced something factual for the first time. Although, I don't expect the silent 2/3 to make the same mistake, or miss the same vocabulary that you did.

Often, that's what makes many of the 2/3s want to be silent. They don't want people to respond to what they would write as if it were not written.


----------



## woodchux (Jan 22, 2008)

How much real climbing experience could you really have if you never even got comfortable enough to trust you gear?


----------



## John464 (Jan 22, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> John, it's under control. I've been in the business a long time .



so have I. Ive also done the landscaping and tasks you speak of. I've raised trees from saplings that I now care for on customer's properties that are 100ft tall. I chose to remove the landscaping services from my business and sell off all of my nursery stock and the land with it Ive been exposed and understand most(will not say all cause always learning) phases or arboriculture. What I am getting from this thread is similar to Treeco's reaction. It is taking somewhat of a shot towards tree care proffesionals.

You say you've been in the business a long time. Which business are you in? landscaping or tree care or both? Do you have 1 or more dedicated tree care crews that specalize 5-6 days a week in high work with either lifts or climbing? How many years have they been with you? Do these same guys come down after the big prune and start shoveling dirt?
How long do you expect them to stay? 

The way I look at it is that if you can correctly prune the large tall trees, you can prune the small ones. In reverse the guy who can prune the small tree may not be setup with the staff and equipment necessary for completition of the large tree. He may have the knowledge from the ground on how it's suppose to be done, but if you are not setup within your own business how much control do you really have over a sub? They don't need to pitch mulch, but can, however it's not something I expect an employee to do. There is so much work to be done on trees and woody plants, if you really want to offer additionals services such as the landscaping part of arboriculture you really need a dedicated seperate landscape crew unless you are working by yourself with a helper or two.The employees who like to work on trees do not like to install planting beds or dig and plant bushes all day. Tell us how you do it.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 22, 2008)

John464 said:


> so have I. Ive also done the landscaping and tasks you speak of. I've raised trees from saplings that I now care for on customer's properties that are 100ft tall.



Good for you.

That's why I posted earlier to the effect that a lot of tree workers are multi-faceted, however I worded it.

Sounds like you have things under the control you need too. 



woodchux said:


> How much real climbing experience could you really have if you never even got comfortable enough to trust you gear?



Never bothered to measure it.

Likewise, I can't tell you how many hours I have on a greensmower, a backhoe, a bucket lift, etc..

How comfortable are you with real horticulture experience? I mean the whole scenario - from turf to trees and roots to shoots. 20 years? 25 years?

How comfortable are you at prescribing fertilizer doses for Agrostis stolonifera? Are you comfortable identifying Lollium perenne?

How many trees and shrubs are you comfortable with for both nomenclature and ID? 400? 500? Maybe 600? Which ones are you comfortable with as far pruning goes, or habitat, etc?

In my case, I've got all the comfort I need to do whatever I need to oversee. Even enough comfort to realize that the questions I just presented to you, are one of the best ways to answer your question.

So let's hear where you are on the overall playing field, so we can determine what kind of information may or may not be useful for your professional development.

It looks like you may be a person who likes questions. If that's the case, I've got lots of questions for you. Answer those, then there's more to follow.


----------



## beowulf343 (Jan 22, 2008)

I've disagreed with you before Vaden and i do again. I much prefer specialization. The company i'm with actually does most of the things on your list and several others that aren't. Do i personally do all these things? Of course not. Each division has its own group of specialists who concentrate on their own speciality. For example, for the last eight years ever since i finished my stint in line clearance, i've been doing nothing but climbing removals usually six days a week. That is a fair amount of experience yet there are still moments i'm surprised or learn new ideas, techniques, reactions, and skills. (or maybe i'm just a slow learner.) And if i'm still learning and improving after thousands of hours in one specific discipline, how could i be considered an expert in something i may only do an hour or two a week? I mow my lawn once a week-can i be considered a landscaper? If i have a question on how a removal effects the surrounding lawn, i'll gladly go and ask one of the landscape guys for their advice. But i don't tell them how to do their job and they don't tell me how to do mine. We work better together-some of our guys have decades of experience in their chosen field, they have specialized and thus know more than i ever will. I'm not too proud to ask for their advice. My question is can any one man seriously be considered an expert in so many different aspects of arboriculture? You give the impression that you are and that may be why you rub me the wrong way. I've seen guys like you get guys like me hurt and hurt badly.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 22, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> You give the impression that you are and that may be why you rub me the wrong way. I've seen guys like you get guys like me hurt and hurt badly.



Reallly....

(Add a Majoy Payne emphasis to that)

I'll add a question / comment similar to one earlier in this thread.

So if I subcontracted a huge oak tree to you on one of my projects, and you were in total control of all your own climbing, pruning, debris removal - are you telling me you would do substandard work because my signature is on the line for the whole property?

Because that's what your comment and some other's comments are sounding like.

Maybe you guys do operate that way.

All I know is that sub-standard work is not going to proceed from me. And the arborists I hire don't compromise when they are on my projects. Especially considering they are climbing Certified Arborists in a far better position to realize reality than you are.

So based on your comments, I can only conclude that you would do inferior work for someone like myself, if you were allowed free reign in the tree.

See how awkward your fabrication sounds?

The reason that the arborist I hire don't experience the fantasy realm that you fabricated, is that we are working together as a harmonious team. They do their stuff in the trees, and if they need help, I follow their lead. Then I contribute my Certified Arborist skills and Certified Landscape Tech skills, and nobody gets hurt.

And the quality - as I've said - is like 300% better than some other services.

We don't experience the problems you suggested, so the way I see it, the "killing" kind of guys must have their wagons surrounding your camp - not ours. That kind of problem is not in sight for us.

You basically just vouched to that effect with your comment.

There are dozens of fine arborists on ArboristSite. So you are saying that if I hired any of them, that their work would be substandard if they were given full reign to do the project completely and safely.

That's really mystery to me, how any of these ethical arborists could all of a sudden do crappy work, while everything delegated to them is entirely in their own hands.

You really like to slap your own industry workers in the face don't you.


----------



## beowulf343 (Jan 22, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> So if I subcontracted a huge oak tree to you on one of my projects, and you were in total control of all your own climbing, pruning, debris removal - are you telling me you would do substandard work because my signature is on the line for the whole property?



No worries-i will never again subcontract out to an arborist who can't climb. My groundie spent two weeks in a hospital cause a non-climbing ca assured us he knew how to work a grcs and i was young and dumb enough to be in awe of his certifications and not question him.



M.D. Vaden said:


> The reason that the arborist I hire don't experience the fantasy realm that you fabricated, is that we are working together as a harmonious team. They do their stuff in the trees, and if they need help, I follow their lead. Then I contribute my Certified Arborist skills and Certified Landscape Tech skills, and nobody gets hurt.



This paragraph cracks me up. So i can assume these climbers are guaranteed to get hurt unless you contribute your capitalized skills?


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 22, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> No worries-i will never again subcontract out to an arborist who can't climb. My groundie spent two weeks in a hospital cause a non-climbing ca assured us he knew how to work a grcs and i was young and dumb enough to be in awe of his certifications and not question him.
> 
> 
> 
> This paragraph cracks me up. So i can assume these climbers are guaranteed to get hurt unless you contribute your capitalized skills?



What you can assume is that I can high-climb replies in here better than most, identifying the weakness, decay and epicormic words, sentences and ideas.

The more you guys post, the more paragraphs it gives me to go in and provide some teaching lessons.

One of the most foolish statements I've ever heard before is when climbers say they won't work for a non-climber. That leads people to wonder if they don't work for homeowners, since it's rare that homeowners climb.

That kind of pseudo-professionalism basically sounds like fear. And it's really inconsistent. It starts sounding like a business world of Baboons if some climbers are willing to work for homeowners if they don't climb, but won't work for other people if they call themselves arborists but don't climb.

This is why I enjoyed a book once, and a teaching about the same time, on words. The instruction was to take statements, and dismantle them into smaller component pieces to see where the strong or weak areas of logic may be located.

Basically, you guys are providing less to study about arboriculture, but a whole lot of paragraphs to analyze regarding inconsistency.

The way to have a role model for arboriculture or landscape architecture in the Oregon area, is by doing the opposite of what you just wrote. Out here, overall, we don't have a prejudice problem against people. If a guy with a degree in electrical engineering wants to hire an electrician to install new wiring in his house, the electrician just writes-up the contract and gets the job done.

If an automobile mechanic here who does bodywork and engines needs a transmission rebuilt, the tranny technician has no worries - they just write up the service agreement and get the job done.

The only real problem that we encounter, is among some climbers with fragile egos or fears. It's one of the few trades in Oregon where you see a few people afraid or unwilling to do qualified work, just because they feel some need to pass judgement.

That's why I think they would make a great study case for someone working on a thesis.


----------



## Mitchell (Jan 22, 2008)

*women*



M.D. Vaden said:


> 10 options is the poll limit.
> That brings to mind a whole different matter that I'd never thought about before - women arborists. I'm curious about if a woman arborist company owner, would feel the need to use an image of a male climber in an ad? It's just that I've never seen an ad before with other than a male climber with a chainsaw. I wonder how much of a difference it would make to homeonwers and how much they would let the image affect their decision. It really should not matter. But somehow I think it would make a difference to people.



In my experience it makes a massive difference. I originally advertised my business as "Two Daughters Tree." My motivation for starting my company was my two daughters. Big mistake, not one call from any ads I ran. I mean not one, even though we had the worst hurricane damage in modern history. I changed my add to a generic "tree service" and starting getting calls. People do not want a gal showing up to do a tree job, particularly a removal.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

Mitchell said:


> In my experience it makes a massive difference. I originally advertised my business as "Two Daughters Tree." My motivation for starting my company was my two daughters. Big mistake, not one call from any ads I ran. I mean not one, even though we had the worst hurricane damage in modern history. I changed my add to a generic "tree service" and starting getting calls. People do not want a gal showing up to do a tree job, particularly a removal.



Isn't it a shame that people think that way.

Even in Canada - eh?

Was that in Victoria?


----------



## treeseer (Jan 23, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> What you can assume is that I can high-climb replies in here better than most, identifying the weakness, decay and epicormic words, sentences and ideas.


A legend in his own mind. Stretching to find feeble fallacies is linguistic self-gratification.

If a boy pulls wings off of flies, it is true that they will not fly. But in becoming Lord of the Flies, he makes himself smaller.

 

:looser:


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

treeseer said:


> A legend in his own mind. Stretching to find feeble fallacies is linguistic self-gratification.
> 
> If a boy pulls wings off of flies, it is true that they will not fly. But in becoming Lord of the Flies, he makes himself smaller.



We saved you a seat on the fence.


:welcome:


----------



## Ekka (Jan 23, 2008)

I have a philosophical question.

Do all conductors know how to play every instrument in the orchestra? opcorn:


----------



## lxt (Jan 23, 2008)

M.D.Vaden, this thread is similar to another one!! If subbin out Tree care works for you.....god bless ya, I had a landscape contractor who wanted me to do his Tree Work, I go look at what Im gettin into & I tell him what I want money wise, Problem with this is I bid the job for what its worth, he gives the HO the bid which is my price + his fee which = no job, other services come in at around my price minus the middleman fee & they get the job.

Again depends on your area I guess, dont take this wrong!! you kinda come across as though you can do it all, but all we hear Is Subcontractors!!
Any one can do this!! We have all when starting done different facets of Arboriculture to make a buck as Biz grows we choose to specialize in one field


Teaching lessons.........C`mon!! you are arrogant!!

Climbers not working for non-climbers refers IMO to working for a contractor not a home owner, homeowners know they cant do it!! But contractors like you will bid it, get it & want to manage someone to do it when you dont have the skills to do it yourself!!!

Your analogies are so non related to the topic being discussed, break down the following sentence & depict whats logical you said you like to do such??

I will pay your way here, pay for your room & board cause I want *YOU* to give me a teaching lesson in one of the facets of Arboriculture, *Climbing* & not off an orchard ladder!! c`mon up Big Man, teach me!!


this guy is truely an arrogant knowitall that does a disservice to the title CA rather than promoting it "Logically".

LXT.............


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

lxt said:


> d
> 
> 
> Teaching lessons.........C`mon!! you are arrogant!!
> ...



Probably the opposite of that.

Like I wrote several times. Suppose any good climber on here works for a homeowner under contract and will do the job right, I defy them to explain why they can't work under contract for me and do it right? Or for virtually anyone and do it right, provided no one interferes with their perfomance of the contract.

If the contract puts no limit on that climbers ability to cause them to do any less than they would for the homeowner, then where is the arrogance? Where is the flaw? Where is the substandard work?

With the climber, not with the other party who signed the contract.

You have been taught. You have been asked. You have been given the crystal clear example.

And some climber replies are dodging that kind of example and question like the plague.

That's why I keep repeating it. To lay the responsibility where it needs to lay.

If someone - no matter who - hires a climber under contract and the contract does not tie the climbers hands as far as good craftsmanship goes, then performance of poor craftmanship can only lie with the climber.

Since the thread is on arboriculture, and since some climbers have indicated that they would not work for non-climbers, I'll keep repeating this angle again, and again and again.

For the simple reason that a simple contract takes care of the situation. And refusal to work must be involve some kind of pychological or attitude matter - like fear, prejudice, etc..

As far as my classes, the best ones and most well recieved by the students, are the ones where I teach them what they don't know, not what they do know.

An arrogant person is recognized by them challenging others to teach them about what they do know. For example, like what you wrote.

To coordinated an effective class situation, I avoid the pitfall of teaching students what they already know. In several classes, students already had preconceived ideas of what a class should be like, as if they were mentally trying to predetermine the content. After about 20 minutes their minds start to adjust that they material is headed into new territory for them.

So one, I would not waste my time teaching you. But if I did, I would schedule to interview you for a hour or so to see what kind of background you had. Preferrably on a campus size grounds situation to ask you a few questions as a core sample of your plant, turf, soil and tree care. After that, I'd know what what aspects to share with you in a teaching situation.

But I'd take 30 people who want to learn something new any day, over one person who asks to be taught about what they think they already know. That's the best way to expand arboriculture and horticulture.

To av


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

Ekka said:


> I have a philosophical question.
> 
> Do all conductors know how to play every instrument in the orchestra? opcorn:



That's actually a fairly good question.

Because they and a lot of the orchestra, are still adhering to a bit of a blueprint in many cases, with a bit of variation. But they still follow a written standard - the symbols.


----------



## lxt (Jan 23, 2008)

Regardless of who contracts me & my team we do the job professionally!! How ever one problem I have ran into is that the contractor who sub`s work has agreed to things with the Home owner/other that may not be the best way to do it. therefore I talk directly with the homeowner to get a feel of what they`re trying to accomplish & advise them of unforeseen things that may arise & provide alternatives.

If the contractor/You cannot convey what else may need done if a certain scenario arises while aloft!!!, then the outcome may not be what the contractee expected, If you dont climb & cannot inspect the tree fully then how can you justify a regiment of treatment or care, let alone sell the homeowner or other on a specific job task when that agreed upon "Care" doesnt fit the situation at hand.

So to answer your question, No I would not refuse to sub to a non climber as long as I can speak with the person the work is being done for first!! It would be better for one as yourself to refer work rather than trying to sub it out, why would even need to be there? If your answer is to manage then you have contradicted your post.

My thought is you cant do it!!! but still want to make money from it!! around here that will get you into trouble by no one wanting to work for you and being left out in the cold by having bid work you youself cannot do!!

Are you trying to be a General Contractor? 

LXT..........


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

lxt said:


> Are you trying to be a General Contractor?
> 
> LXT..........



I figured I'd answered that several times.

I'm about as anti-general contractor as they come.


----------



## lxt (Jan 23, 2008)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I figured I'd answered that several times.
> 
> I'm about as anti-general contractor as they come.




You do realize that what you describe & the way you operate your biz is the same as that of a General Contractor?

If you sub work out you in essence are a GC, how can you say you`re anti GC?

LXT...........


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

lxt said:


> You do realize that what you describe & the way you operate your biz is the same as that of a General Contractor?
> 
> If you sub work out you in essence are a GC, how can you say you`re anti GC?
> 
> LXT...........



Well lets take a look at your history and see what nature of background you are utilizing to arrive at these type of conclusions.

Let's start with soil.

How do you approach soil care?

Which are the most prevalent types of compaction in your area that would be important to keep in mind.

What would you consider the most practical practice in your area for soil conditions - the practice that most likely would do the most good, most of the time, for most people?


----------



## Scots Climber (Jan 23, 2008)

First off, hello everyone.

Do you climb?
Yes, I have specialized in hardwood crown reduction and dismantling fallen and wind blown trees. 
Do you include ground level pruning and shrubs?
Yes.
Do you study the environment: both lawn, small plants and soil?
Yes, it is a very important element of the the work.
Do you apply pesticides?
Yes, where appropriate.
Do you select and plant trees?
Yes, although my experience is substantially with British (Scottish) indigenous species and cultivars. 
Do you consult for trees?
Yes, but only after consultation with Arborist (my employer).
Do you consult for trees in the full landscape?
Yes.
How limited is your service based on the description above for aboriculture?
I'm really only a ground worker and climber, so my service, personally, is limited to pure hands on tree work. The company I worked for (until yesterday) provide a full Arboricultural and Landscaping service including environmental and ecological consultation.
With Vines, Shrubs - do you understand the arboriculture needs for them?
Yes, but I'm still learning. 

:greenchainsaw:


----------



## lxt (Jan 23, 2008)

WTF, do you ever answer the questions you`re asked? or do you just answer questions with questions?

What does *SOIL* have to do with the General Contractor question above?..........Nothing!!! you just go off topic to try to impress us with your book knowledge.......I have a library of information too that I can gloss through & ask questions about 

Answer this, on your website theres a picture of you which appears you`re doing hand pruning or providing some form of inspection/care to an evergreen or a shrub, its hard to ID the specie or what is actually being done, On the ground is a stihl chainsaw looks like a 460? with a 24"+ bar......is that a prop? cause nothing there required use of a saw that big!!

I honestly think most of the work you speak of is done by others & you take the glory!!!!!! have the companies you refer jump on site here to back you up, cause I for one think you have a bladder full of hot air!!

Again *I will pay your way to come up here to show me how good you are!* *Your site says you travel & Train!!!* So come up & train us who dont know!! Manage us with your wisdom!! &*BRING YOUR GEAR!!*

enough BS, Man up & practice what you preach!!!

LXT........................this reply should be good


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 23, 2008)

lxt said:


> WTF, do you ever answer the questions you`re asked? or do you just answer questions with questions?
> 
> What does *SOIL* have to do with the General Contractor question above?..........Nothing!!!



Nahhhh....

Got a lot to do with it. Once we understand how you think things through from ground level to limb level, we may be able to understand your view of relationships between contractors or subcontractors.

In other words, there is no reason at this point to talk about what you believe about general contracting or subcontracting. Because it makes no sense - not yet. But with a close look at your side of the coin, things might become more clear.

Your view of contract relationships will be built on your belief system. And your belief system will be built on your knowledge system. And your knowledge system will be built on details.

*So, back to the details, what is your approach regarding those aspects of soil?* Post #43.

You express familiarity with canopies. Based on your familiarity with tree canopies, *if an elderly couple asked you what type of evergreen conifers to use around their driveway for a thick forested canopy, which tree type would you suggest to best serve their needs?*

Again, this will all eventually tie-in to the contracting discussion.


----------



## beowulf343 (Jan 23, 2008)

Ah lxt, quit feeding the trolls! Lol. No matter what you say, vaden will twist it around to stroke his ego. 

But if you do get him to come out to teach you a few things, drop me a pm. The PA border is a short distance away and it may be worth the drive to see such a legendary god in action.


----------



## lxt (Jan 24, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> Ah lxt, quit feeding the trolls! Lol. No matter what you say, vaden will twist it around to stroke his ego.
> 
> But if you do get him to come out to teach you a few things, drop me a pm. The PA border is a short distance away and it may be worth the drive to see such a legendary god in action.




Hell if he musters up the courage, I will do that.....Wulf, Ill even put you up(room & board) But dont count on it! LOL.

I thought his website said he will travel & teach? I guess only for people that dont know anything that way he can BS his way through & feel good!!

Legendary God...LOL, thats a good one!! Hey Vaden My lawn needs cut, snow shoveled & Ill have a few plantings for ya, Ill even supply the *SOIL* then you can explain all aspects of it & its uses!!!

*How much will it cost to get your Azz here with gear? I think you`re a joke, show up & prove me wrong!!*

LXT...............LOL, he is a troll uhh?


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 24, 2008)

lxt said:


> Hey Vaden My lawn needs cut, snow shoveled



It was more essential for you to answer the questions in post #43 and post #48. If you don't know the answer, that's fine, just let us know. So far, it seems that you don't have an answer, but we don't have to clearly assume that.

*As far as your lawn goes, what kind of maintenance schedule have you been on for it, and what species is it, that you have the need for lawn cutting and snow shoveling at the same time?

Has it been maintained?

What is the vernation of the grass?*

The more we circumvent these questions, the longer it will be until your questions about contracting will be wrapped-up.


----------



## woodchux (Jan 24, 2008)

What a JACKASS way to avoid direct questions....read you own thread and answer the DIRECT questions you have been asked. you expect everyone to hang on every word you post and you cant even answer direct questions!

"when a man is all wrapped up in himself ... it makes for a very small package"


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Jan 24, 2008)

woodchux said:


> What a JACKASS way to avoid direct questions....read you own thread and answer the DIRECT questions you have been asked. you expect everyone to hang on every word you post and you cant even answer direct questions!
> 
> "when a man is all wrapped up in himself ... it makes for a very small package"



You seem very touchy.

No crisis, I didn't ask you the questions. If you feel that way, why wait around. No one needs to "hang" or sit in suspense waiting for what they feel is the right sentence.

LTX's ideals about contracting will hinge entirely on his perception of horticulture. After being on a contractor license board for 6 years, and seeing the communication gap within the experiential background of board members, I witnessed firsthand how the 7 (plus) individuals had to get into each other's background as an interpretation tool. It took up to a year sometimes.

What each of the contractors appointed to the board did professionally; how they did it and how much they did it, altered their views on contracting and the green professions.

From your response, I can see you do not understand why I'm taking this approach.

So as for a few of the questions I'll be involved in WOODCHUX, sit back in your seat and strap on your seat belt, because you don't know where to direct the nature of questions I'm listing. There is a reason for them, and the order in which they are being listed.

So far, I'm waiting for LTX to answers at least 3 small things:

*Something soil related.

Something tree selection related.

Something turf related.*


----------



## lxt (Jan 24, 2008)

*Why not show up in person & teach me? I said Ill foot the bill!!* That way when you ask me a question here I will have obtained your knowledge through teaching & be able to answer it correctly *According to you!!*

C`mon Vaden....Man up!! *YOU DO TEACH RIGHT? or is what you say on your website FALSE ADVERTISEMENT?*



LXT...........


----------

