# How to stop new growth around stumps



## 560Dennis (Sep 12, 2022)

I think it’s a mistake to cut in spring. Now that I did it . New growth comes up from everything I’ve cut in the past stumps in multiple.
what can I do to stop it . Been going for two years or more .


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## cookies (Sep 12, 2022)

bore or x cut the stump deep and immediately apply glyphosate to the cuts


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 13, 2022)

You could try spraying the sprouts with roundup or lawn weed killer and let the plant grow it into the remaining root system. Drilling wood like suggested above is questionable because a lot of the downward movement is in the outer layers. But if you spray sprout growth, it should pull the herbicide down and translocate it. I've done it quite a few times successfully. Right before autumn leaf color change is a good time, but it can be done in other growing season months.


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## Bill G (Sep 13, 2022)

Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 13, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.


When did glyphosphate stop killing roots?


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## Bill G (Sep 13, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> When did glyphosphate stop killing roots?


It never had been effective at killing the root system of a trees and most other perennials. I can post a lot of real life pictures tonight but all it will do is clog the mans thread up. If you want to believe it is effective at permeant killing of trees and some other perennials that is fine. It is effective on most annuals. It is too late in the year for you to try this but you can next year. Go select four similar sized trees that you would like to kill. Spray 25, 50,75and 100percent of them respectively. See what the results are. You will see the respective amounts appear to die but the untouched will live. Select a fifth tree and cut it down then spray the stump. In 2024 go back and look at the results. The four uncut but sprayed trees will be alive and the stump applied one will be sprouting shoots depending on species. Another quicker trial is to spray a small section of grass early in the spring. It will appear to die but then as the season progresses you will see the grass come back. This is one of the reasons when no till farming you have to spray a second application of Glyphosate as the first application burns everything down but does not kill the roots of the perennials such as grasses. It does kill grasses such as corn because corn is an annual.

You can believe what you want but that is real life experience Your experience will vary


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 13, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out.



I've never met "some say" before, but have sprayed and killed a lot of entire plants, weeds and small trees with Roundup before. There's been a few times it didn't work, but usually it worked if the leaves were not dusty. It even annihilates blackberry plants roots and all if applied around September to plants that are not badly stressed. About 40 years ago I maintained both pesticide consultant and pesticide applicator licenses here in Oregon, and repeated college classes to maintain my arborist CEUs. So I have a decent foundation about what works or not.

Anyway, Roundup is a TRANSLOCATING herbicide typically applied post emergent, and it will translocate to roots. It's one of few ways to kill small trees that have grown their roots amidst the root ball of desirable shrubs, where digging won't resolve the problem.

But if glyphosate has failed for somebody, that's worth keeping in mind. There's reasons or conditions that may have worked against them at times. Could be dust on the leaves. Maybe they left the site an an unknown downpour occurred while they were off site. Maybe the foliage and petioles were too far into autumn transition


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I've never met "some say" before, but have sprayed and killed a lot of entire plants, weeds and small trees with Roundup before. There's been a few times it didn't work, but usually it worked if the leaves were not dusty. It even annihilates blackberry plants roots and all if applied around September to plants that are not badly stressed. About 40 years ago I maintained both pesticide consultant and pesticide applicator licenses here in Oregon, and repeated college classes to maintain my arborist CEUs. So I have a decent foundation about what works or not.
> 
> Anyway, Roundup is a TRANSLOCATING herbicide typically applied post emergent, and it will translocate to roots. It's one of few ways to kill small trees that have grown their roots amidst the root ball of desirable shrubs, where digging won't resolve the problem.
> 
> But if glyphosate has failed for somebody, that's worth keeping in mind. There's reasons or conditions that may have worked against them at times. Could be dust on the leaves. Maybe they left the site an an unknown downpour occurred while they were off site. Maybe the foliage and petioles were too far into autumn transition


Since you are in the PNW with a different growing season how did those plants look like 90 days 120 days, 240 days and 360 days later after a single application? Are your no-till farmers using a single application for lifetime control? If so that is great as one application to a perennial is lifetime control with no more control needed. Then no one would ever need to buy Glyphosate again for perennial. . So on woody stem and basal bark applications no one uses the most effective treatments of Picloram or Triclopyr ? The poster asked about killing a woody stem from a cut stump and Glyphosate is ineffective at that task. You can believe what you want but real life experience by millions is hard to refute. I guess you want to believe it I am not going to argue with you. I just want to help the poster find an effective method of permanently solving the issue and not a "band-aid" for a few months or a year. In 30 years of using Picloram I have never had to treat a stump twice and no one that I have ever talked with has either. You can believe what you choose. If you do not believe me then go do the experiment I suggested. It will be quicker in your growing season. I am very interested in the findings.

Bill


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## ChuckMI (Sep 14, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I've never met "some say" before, but have sprayed and killed a lot of entire plants, weeds and small trees with Roundup before. There's been a few times it didn't work, but usually it worked if the leaves were not dusty. It even annihilates blackberry plants roots and all if applied around September to plants that are not badly stressed. About 40 years ago I maintained both pesticide consultant and pesticide applicator licenses here in Oregon, and repeated college classes to maintain my arborist CEUs. So I have a decent foundation about what works or not.
> 
> Anyway, Roundup is a TRANSLOCATING herbicide typically applied post emergent, and it will translocate to roots. It's one of few ways to kill small trees that have grown their roots amidst the root ball of desirable shrubs, where digging won't resolve the problem.
> 
> But if glyphosate has failed for somebody, that's worth keeping in mind. There's reasons or conditions that may have worked against them at times. Could be dust on the leaves. Maybe they left the site an an unknown downpour occurred while they were off site. Maybe the foliage and petioles were too far into autumn transition


He must be thinking of some other chemical.


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## ATpro (Sep 14, 2022)

Picloram is better known as Tordon, in the forestry industry, we used the regulated product but consumers can use Tordon RTU to treat the stumps for sprouting or regrowth. 
Here is a vid that shows you how to apply.


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## Seachaser (Sep 14, 2022)

Arsenal is what you seek. But it will kill any other roots that might be near it.


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## sand sock (Sep 14, 2022)

tordon / T = traveles 
gordon/ G= stays where it is at on the ground


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## Jay Hansen (Sep 14, 2022)

I have had good results with 41% glyphosate concentrate applied full-strength to the cambium layer of freshly cut stumps.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

Seachaser said:


> Arsenal is what you seek. But it will kill any other roots that might be near it.


I have never used it but have heard it is effective. The active ingredient is imazapyr.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

ATpro said:


> Picloram is better known as Tordon, in the forestry industry, we used the regulated product but consumers can use Tordon RTU to treat the stumps for sprouting or regrowth.
> Here is a vid that shows you how to apply.



It is by far the most effective in my opinion. The RTU is available almost everywhere including even Amazon. As you noted the Tordon 22K is regulated and required an applicators license which of course I have as well as millions of other folks. 

How are you using the ,22K ? There is a lot of different opinions on it. Some say use it full strength which defeats to he purpose of buying it over RTU. Others mix it with one part 24D and two parts diesel. Others say forget the diesel and use water lots of varying thoughts on it.


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## Woody912 (Sep 14, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.


What he said!


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## ATpro (Sep 14, 2022)

Bill G said:


> How are you using the ,22K ?


We used it in a hand sprayer at 10% Tordon 22k with Basal Oil + DYE for spraying stumps on small scale. Needs to be sprayed soon after cut so the so the cambium area takes up chemical, can also add 2-4D to the mix for better control.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

ATpro said:


> We used it in a hand sprayer at 10% Tordon 22k with Basal Oil + DYE for spraying stumps on small scale. Needs to be sprayed soon after cut so the so the cambium area takes up chemical, can also add 2-4D to the mix for better control.


I have always just used the RTU but last winter I looked into getting the 22K because I needed a huge amount. I got conflicting answers from some folks on how to mix it. Some said 2 gallons of diesel with one gallon each of 22K and 24D. Others said to use water. So if I understand you correctly you are using the 22K as only 10 percent of your solution. If so how much 24D


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## capetrees (Sep 14, 2022)

I've had great luck with grinding the stump out and below ground. No growback


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## Mad Professor (Sep 14, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.


Glyphosate foliar spray will get to the roots, need to allow it to transfer from foliage before cutting. Can also paint fresh cut stumps/vines with concentrate.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

Here is a picture of a small tree sprayed with Glyphosate in about May. The picture was taken Tuesday night.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

Here is a cut stump with Tordon (picloram) applied after cutting last winter.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

I will allow the pictures to tell the story. I have tons more.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

capetrees said:


> I've had great luck with grinding the stump out and below ground. No growback


Well there is no doubt that grinding will work but that is not a real viable option when you are cutting more than a thousand trees over a winter/early spring. Also tough to get a grinder in a 60% slope ravine.


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## ATpro (Sep 14, 2022)

Bill G said:


> If so how much 24D


For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.

This was a hot mix, but effective.


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## Bill G (Sep 14, 2022)

ATpro said:


> For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.
> 
> This was a hot mix, but effective.


Thank you for the info. For many years I have always just used Tordon RTU as I could get it dirt cheap but now that price has went through the roof I started investigating the 22K -(2-4-D) and diesel mix. I could never find a source of information that I trusted and there was no way I was going to risk a failure so I finished the season with RTU. Now as I get close to the start of a new cutting season I need to get serious about finding a tank mix that works. I have never been a big believer in diesel in a cut stump treatment or in cold weather. It might make sense in hot weather for foliar application but not in a Illinois winter on stumps. 

Where are you getting your 22K? I tried this site last winter


https://www.forestrydistributing.com/tordon-22k-specialty-herbicide-corteva


I get a chuckle out of the fact the price is higher per gallon in a 30 gallon drum than 5 gallon packs of two 2.5 gallon jugs


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## CDElliott (Sep 15, 2022)

I use Tordon RTU also. I keep a small spray bottle of it on the ATV and spray it just on the outer cambium and it's one and done! The hand sprayer is convenient and allows for economical use of the product. Tordon RTU works well and a bottle lasts me a long time!


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## Hickahollar (Sep 15, 2022)

Well most of the time I try to cut my hard woods in the winter and early spring just so that they have a better chance to grow back. It's called copicing (maybe spelled wrong). I copice soo i can have a steady supply of firewood on my small acreage. Age of tree has a lot to do with it young trees will copice better than old one's that said I have seen 150 year old trees copice 1 or 2 branches but most die. Cut in summer and 90 percent of the time the tree dies. Mid fall they probably won't have enough food storage in their roots to survive fall and all winter, But they could. In my yard I cut down some Chinese bush tree thing that just kept coming back from the stump the roots all over the yard. I mixed a half gallon of vinegar with about an 1/8th cup of salt. And it killed it too never come back. The vinegar kills the green stuff and the salt gets taken up into the roots and dries the root out like gylophosate.


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## capetrees (Sep 15, 2022)

560Dennis said:


> I think it’s a mistake to cut in spring. Now that I did it . New growth comes up from everything I’ve cut in the past stumps in multiple.
> what can I do to stop it . Been going for two years or more .





Bill G said:


> Well there is no doubt that grinding will work but that is not a real viable option when you are cutting more than a thousand trees over a winter/early spring. Also tough to get a grinder in a 60% slope ravine.


The OP didn't mention a thousand trees on 60% slopes.


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## Bill G (Sep 15, 2022)

capetrees said:


> The OP didn't mention a thousand trees on 60% slopes.


No not all. I was simply saying that as many folks face many different situations.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 15, 2022)

Woody912 said:


> What he said!



Since Roundup works, the Tordon part sounds feasible. Both herbicides can work.

The names of the products noted in replies above are amusing. It would be fun to have a job thinking of names to give to chemical herbicide products.

For control around fence posts on farms, maybe something called "POLE DANCE"

For growth regulation or apex control, maybe "TERMINATOR"


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Since you are in the PNW with a different growing season how did those plants look like 90 days 120 days, 240 days and 360 days later after a single application? Are your no-till farmers using a single application for lifetime control? If so that is great as one application to a perennial is lifetime control with no more control needed. Then no one would ever need to buy Glyphosate again for perennial. . So on woody stem and basal bark applications no one uses the most effective treatments of Picloram or Triclopyr ? The poster asked about killing a woody stem from a cut stump and Glyphosate is ineffective at that task. You can believe what you want but real life experience by millions is hard to refute. I guess you want to believe it I am not going to argue with you. I just want to help the poster find an effective method of permanently solving the issue and not a "band-aid" for a few months or a year. In 30 years of using Picloram I have never had to treat a stump twice and no one that I have ever talked with has either. You can believe what you choose. If you do not believe me then go do the experiment I suggested. It will be quicker in your growing season. I am very interested in the findings.
> 
> Bill



There is no 90 to 360 days. For time yes, for growth no.

Most often when I used it, they were brown and withered in a few weeks, never to be seen again.

Assuming it's done right, and not to plants coated with heavy dust layers or that have been unusually drought stressed.

I particularly liked what happened to blackberry sprayed in September with Roundup. One yard had a 1/2 acre. I hedge sheared a few paths for a grid, then sprayed. Came back the following April with a broom stick size pole and swung it shattering the vines like broken glass. It's remarkable how tough green blackberry canes are, but how brittle they become. And in that case, the same roots did not grow, except some new seed germination which needed hoe or followup spray with something like Crossbow since it was months before autumn.


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## Bill G (Sep 15, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Since Roundup works, the Tordon part sounds feasible. Both herbicides can work.
> 
> The names of the products noted in replies above are amusing. It would be fun to have a job thinking of names to give to chemical herbicide products.
> 
> ...


Well there used to be a growth regulator named "Limit". There is now one called "Cutless".


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## Bill G (Sep 15, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> There is no 90 to 360 days. For time yes, for growth no.
> 
> Most often when I used it, they were brown and withered in a few weeks, never to be seen again.
> 
> ...


I do not know what you mean there is no 90 to 360 days. What have trees looked liked 1 year after spraying them with Glyphosate? Yes blackberry bushes are woody stem perennials but are very easy to kill even with low dosage 2-4-D. I can post some pics of those. Did you look at the pics I posted? It really does not matter though. What works for you works for you.


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## ATpro (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Where are you getting your 22K?



Am retired now and haven't bought any in years. Most of the forestry services we worked through had certification's and they did bulk buying. As a contractor we could work through their Lic's and certification's. Keeping up with certification requirements for recertification every few years was a pain in the butt, that is why we chose to use forestry services that were available to work through.

Many of the contracts we serviced were for clients that were getting government assistants with detailed specifications and the work had to be approved along the way. Most of the time the forestry service we worked through handled the paperwork and we did the fieldwork.

Most of the time with these government assistants programs we had a project budget to work within and the more economical we could make it, the better for the client, Often the client could come out with a "0" factor cost and sometimes a little pocket change.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill G said:


> It really does not matter though. What works for you works for you.



Your post reminded me of something when you say "what works for you".

It should be clear from my several replies above that Roundup is successful for me, and it should be for plants of small or large size since it's a translocating herbicide.

One thing I did not mention, was that I often apply at reduced rates of 50% to 75% strength. 

In college our pesticides instructor told us that a slow kill is often a better kill. It means that a plant or tree can live longer to translocate the herbicide into its roots more completely before croaking. So about 80% of the time, I apply at reduce concentration.


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## Bill G (Sep 15, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Your post reminded me of something when you say "what works for you".
> 
> It should be clear from my several replies above that Roundup is successful for me, and it should be for plants of small or large size since it's a translocating herbicide.
> 
> ...


What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? Is that basal bark, cut stump, or foliar. I assume you alter for each method. What is you concentration level for each method. It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 15, 2022)

Bill G said:


> What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? Is that basal bark, cut stump, or foliar. I assume you alter for each method. What is you concentration level for each method. It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.



My previous replies should connote that I spray foliar. Whatever the concentration is, I reduce it to 50% or 75% but definitely not 100%.

I do the same thing for "weeds" in lawns too, including Dandelion. Before my college pesticide classes in the 1980s I'd apply full strength spray to old established dandelion and see quite a few sprout new plants or ever rosettes from the same root. Afterward I applied reduced so it could grow and translocate the triple herbicide lawn weed solution deeper into the root system. Then there were no new plants. Just little holes in the ground where the center roots decayed.

But that's why I do the same for any size plant or small trees I decided to spray.


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## ATpro (Sep 15, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> My previous replies should connote that I spray foliar. Whatever the concentration is, I reduce it to 50% or 75% but definitely not 100%


Well you're spraying a hot spray not a not a reduced rate. Even a reduced concentration of 75% would be way over specifications. Concentration of 4oz per gallon of 41% Glyphosate are required for woody plants which is only 3.0% of chemical per gallon. For a slow kill on weeds we use 2oz per gallon which takes longer to kill but will work. We even spray overgrown pasture at a fast rate of travel with spray bar equipment on a UTV at 2oz per gallon to knock down growth but not kill the pasture. One warning, never spray Glyphosate around bee hives or on a field where the hive is. Bees will pack up and move. If you want bees to move from an old barn or house spray Glyphosate around and they will leave without you having to kill them, bees hate the stuff.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 16, 2022)

ATpro said:


> Well you're spraying a hot spray not a not a reduced rate. Even a reduced concentration of 75% would be way over specifications. Concentration of 4oz per gallon of 41% Glyphosate are required for woody plants which is only 3.0% of chemical per gallon. For a slow kill on weeds we use 2oz per gallon which takes longer to kill but will work. We even spray overgrown pasture at a fast rate of travel with spray bar equipment on a UTV at 2oz per gallon to knock down growth but not kill the pasture. One warning, never spray Glyphosate around bee hives or on a field where the hive is. Bees will pack up and move. If you want bees to move from an old barn or house spray Glyphosate around and they will leave without you having to kill them, bees hate the stuff.



Not really.

For example, a 4 Pound Casoron is not a "HOT" application compared to a 2 G (pound) casoron, because the directions compensate. Typically, 1/2 of a 4G will end up on the ground than when using the 2G. Same principle often applies to liquids like Roundup. Higher concentration formula directions call for less ounces.

So Roundup has different concentrations, but the directions compensate. When I say I'm applying at reduce rates or concentrations, that's what's happening. If there's a super concentrate, the directions should be calling for less oz. per gallon. But in addition, I cut that amount again.

Where you missed the mark about my posts, seems to be confusing concentration ("hotter") with the final result (amount released). However I happen to phrase it, the amount of active ingredient applied to foliage is less than the maximum so I can get a slower kill. 

No need to complicate the simplicity of that. Whatever the bottle says to apply, I apply less.


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## ATpro (Sep 16, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> For example, a 4 Pound Casoron is not a "HOT" application compared to a 2 G (pound) casoron, because the directions compensate. Typically, 1/2 of a 4G will end up on the ground than when using the 2G.


Word Salad, you're trying to compare a ready to use product with formulations that are concentrated and require dilution for application.
You can buy ready to use Glyphosate and cut that, but it depends on the Glyphosate concentration in the product as to what the final result will be.

I see you quoted using the suggested formulation chart on the product and cutting that, maybe we had a miscommunication at the start.

The formulation charts on the product are there to help guide application for effective result. They are the approved upper level application rates for FDA/EPA approval. As a registered chemical applicator we were required to follow guidelines when it came to upper level concentrations. When doing work where Government Assistance Programs were involved we were required to use exact concentration and spread application levels as dictated in the contract.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 16, 2022)

ATpro said:


> Word Salad, you're trying to compare a ready to use product with formulations that are concentrated and require dilution for application.
> You can buy ready to use Glyphosate and cut that, but it depends on the Glyphosate concentration in the product as to what the final result will be.
> 
> I see you quoted using the suggested formulation chart on the product and cutting that, maybe we had a miscommunication at the start.
> ...




Rather than repeat myself with different vocabulary just for your sake, I'll just leave my other posts for other readers. Past experience teaching and lectures leaves me with the impression that 9 out of a 10 readers will get the meaning of my posts clearly.


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## Bill G (Sep 16, 2022)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Rather than repeat myself with different vocabulary just for your sake, I'll just leave my other posts for other readers. Past experience teaching and lectures leaves me with the impression that 9 out of a 10 readers will get the meaning of my posts clearly.


I am still lost at your concentration. I asked


Bill G said:


> What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? Is that basal bark, cut stump, or foliar. I assume you alter for each method. What is you concentration level for each method. It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.


You posted this but failed to actually answer.


M.D. Vaden said:


> My previous replies should connote that I spray foliar. Whatever the concentration is, I reduce it to 50% or 75% but definitely not 100%.
> 
> I do the same thing for "weeds" in lawns too, including Dandelion. Before my college pesticide classes in the 1980s I'd apply full strength spray to old established dandelion and see quite a few sprout new plants or ever rosettes from the same root. Afterward I applied reduced so it could grow and translocate the triple herbicide lawn weed solution deeper into the root system. Then there were no new plants. Just little holes in the ground where the center roots decayed.
> 
> But that's why I do the same for any size plant or small trees I decided to spray.


This is an informational thread that is here to help educate folks on different methods so it would be best to actually attempt to provide some information like ATPro did here.

I said


Bill G said:


> It is by far the most effective in my opinion. The RTU is available almost everywhere including even Amazon. As you noted the Tordon 22K is regulated and required an applicators license which of course I have as well as millions of other folks.
> 
> How are you using the ,22K ? There is a lot of different opinions on it. Some say use it full strength which defeats to he purpose of buying it over RTU. Others mix it with one part 24D and two parts diesel. Others say forget the diesel and use water lots of varying thoughts on it.


He replied


ATpro said:


> We used it in a hand sprayer at 10% Tordon 22k with Basal Oil + DYE for spraying stumps on small scale. Needs to be sprayed soon after cut so the so the cambium area takes up chemical, can also add 2-4D to the mix for better control.


I asked


Bill G said:


> I have always just used the RTU but last winter I looked into getting the 22K because I needed a huge amount. I got conflicting answers from some folks on how to mix it. Some said 2 gallons of diesel with one gallon each of 22K and 24D. Others said to use water. So if I understand you correctly you are using the 22K as only 10 percent of your solution. If so how much 24D


He said


ATpro said:


> For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.
> 
> This was a hot mix, but effective.


He provided detailed information. I ask again.........What concentration level of 41% Glyphosate are you using to kill trees? It is easiest to specify in ounces per gallon as that is the way it would be applied to trees since it would be a site specific spot spray treatment. If you are applying on a per acre basis what is your gallon per acre and ounce per acre. If you calculate by AI that is fine and you should be able to do the math for those reading the thread that do not work with it. If not I will help you so folks can be informed.

Let's try helping some folks


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## Hickahollar (Sep 16, 2022)

I still vote vinegar and salt.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

Hickahollar said:


> I still vote vinegar and salt.


That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .


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## Hickahollar (Sep 17, 2022)

I suppose the acid would help dissolve rust but you would surely have to put in a lot of elbow grease with salt as the agitator. It could work but in this instance I prefer a medium stiff wire brush attached to a drill. Works great and lasts a long time compared to sand paper.


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## pdqdl (Sep 17, 2022)

Bill G said:


> I have always just used the RTU but last winter I looked into getting the 22K because I needed a huge amount. I got conflicting answers from some folks on how to mix it. Some said 2 gallons of diesel with one gallon each of 22K and 24D. Others said to use water. So if I understand you correctly you are using the 22K as only 10 percent of your solution. If so how much 24D



22k might not happen for you, as it is a restricted use pesticide and requires a license. Apart from that, there is nothing special about the product. It's just a more concentrated formulation of picloram. Tordon RTU has a little 2,4-D added, but I rather doubt that is essential for killing stumps.

I've been making my own RTU for years, as the final cost per ounce of herbicide is much less if you start with the more concentrated product. I'd use water for stump treatments, as that is how the regular RTU is formulated.


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## pdqdl (Sep 17, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Some say to use Glyphosate which is roundup. That will kill only the new growth and is like locking the barn after the horse is out. You will continue to have new shoots. Cut your stumps and apply Tordon around the outer ring for existing shoots cut them and apply Tordon to the small stumps. It will be taken into the root system and end your problems.



That is a mistaken notion. Glyphosate is indeed translocated to the roots, and does provide a total kill. That being said, I think it is not as effective as Picloram products at killing the stump. One bonus for the glyphosate treatment: there is no concern for killing adjacent plants that might also have roots in the treated area. Tordon remains in the soil, and sometimes can injure adjacent plants.

Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> 22k might not happen for you, as it is a restricted use pesticide and requires a license.


That made me chuckle. If you look back to post #15 I said


Bill G said:


> It is by far the most effective in my opinion. The RTU is available almost everywhere including even Amazon. As you noted the Tordon 22K is regulated and required an applicators license which of course I have as well as millions of other folks.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


So making it "happen" is not a problem. I have an applicators license and got my first one at age 16. I was in high school when that law came into effect. Of course that was in the pen and paper days. Illinois at that time required you to sit through a 3 hour training session prior to taking the test. The closest test site was 50 miles away and my father did not want to stop working to go do it. I was 16 and I had no problems skipping school to go do it. I sat through the session, took the test, and got my first applicators license. After that the renewal did not require the long training sessions. I just renewed in January via the online test although the testing service "proctor u" screwed up my computer. On another note one of my sons has his commercial applicators license.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> ......................I've been making my own RTU for years, as the final cost per ounce of herbicide is much less if you start with the more concentrated product. I'd use water for stump treatments, as that is how the regular RTU is formulated.


There en lies the question I asked ATpro about. There are a lot of different thoughts on specific mixtures. Some say to use water because as you noted that is what RTU uses. Others say to use diesel while others use crop oil. A few use liquid nitrogen. 


Bill G said:


> How are you using the ,22K ? There is a lot of different opinions on it. Some say use it full strength which defeats to he purpose of buying it over RTU. Others mix it with one part 24D and two parts diesel. Others say forget the diesel and use water lots of varying thoughts on it.


Then after you choose which of those to use the next question is to add 2-4-D or not. The current formulation of RTU is 5.4% Picloram, 20.9% 2-4-D, and 73.7% other ingredients. I asked ATpro about how much of it he used in his mixture. He answered ...


ATpro said:


> For a basal spray we added to the mix about 6 to 8 oz per gallon of mix in the water. Spec for 2.4-d Amine calls for 1 pint of 2,4-D with 3 gallons of diesel, half a pint of Silvex, but we used water instead of diesel. 2,4-D mix by itself isn't as effective on cut stumps much larger than 6" to 8" but added to the tordon mix it helps to provide ground saturation to control sprouting.
> 
> This was a hot mix, but effective.


Since I am trying to gather as many opinions from folks that actually use it I will ask you.....what is your specific tank mix for using 22K on cut stumps. I asked M.D. Vaden about his/her specific tank mix of Glyphosate for cut stumps and he/she did not reply. Not sure why.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> That is a mistaken notion. Glyphosate is indeed translocated to the roots, and does provide a total kill. That being said, I think it is not as effective as Picloram products at killing the stump. One bonus for the glyphosate treatment: there is no concern for killing adjacent plants that might also have roots in the treated area. Tordon remains in the soil, and sometimes can injure adjacent plants.
> 
> Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.


If you feel Glyphosate is effective then try the experiment I purposed here.


Bill G said:


> ............... Go select four similar sized trees that you would like to kill. Spray 25, 50,75and 100percent of them respectively. See what the results are. You will see the respective amounts appear to die but the untouched will live. Select a fifth tree and cut it down then spray the stump. In 2023 go back and look at the results. The four uncut but sprayed trees will be alive and the stump applied one will be sprouting shoots depending on species. Another quicker trial is to spray a small section of grass early in the spring. It will appear to die but then as the season progresses you will see the grass come back. This is one of the reasons when no till farming you have to spray a second application of Glyphosate as the first application burns everything down but does not kill the roots of the perennials such as grasses. It does kill grasses such as corn because corn is an annual.
> 
> You can believe what you want but that is real life experience Your experience will vary


 I just altered my quote to take out where I said it was too late this year and I exchanged 2024 for 2023. Since you are in the KC area it is not too late to try this. Go out and give it a try then go back in the spring of 2023 and see what those trees look like.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> .....................Another good stump treatment is any herbicide that contains triclopyr.


There are products containing triclopyr and it is simply another tool in the tool box .
Some products are Garlon, Vastlan, Tailspin, Remedy, Pathfinder and others. This entire thread is starting to look very similar to one along time ago on the Missouri Whitetails website




__





Triclopyr General Fact Sheet






npic.orst.edu


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## sean donato (Sep 17, 2022)

Bill G said:


> That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .


I've used a mix of vinegar and Epsom salt to keep stumps from sending new shoots off. Although its a bit more involved then just spraying it on, and depending on stumps size I guess it can get expensive as well. Small scale it works fine. Use a 1.5" wood auger to drill a few holes along the outer perimeter of the stump about 4 to 6" deep. Fill with Epsom salt then vinegar. I typically space the holes 6" apart give or take. I did a bunch of poplars a few years ago with this method, no new shoots and the stumps degraded pretty fast.


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## quahog (Sep 17, 2022)

Bill G said:


> That is the first I have heard of that and in no way am I in disagreement as I do not know. What I do know is white vinegar and salt is said to be a rust remover but when I tried it the result was less than "advertised". I think my concentration level and time factor was incorrect .



A vinegar soak will definitely help with rust removal, but it is a smelly mess that you'll still have to go hands on with a scrub brush afterwards.

When i lived in Indiana, I would hit all the indoor flea markets/consignment shops for the old flat irons and any older(or at least US made) vise. I use the flat irons on bookshelves and the vises are self explanatory.

I would soak items for a few days in white vinegar-no diluting just the regular 5% stuff from the supermarket. This would soften the rust enough to come right off with a soft brush. 

Earlier this year, I did the same with some rusting Conibear 110 traps.

The cons of using this is it will eat the metal and you may lose fine details you don't want to lose. 

Some gurus at cleaning up old metal are on the Garage Journal forum and in their vises thread. 


because of this thread, I have some Tordon RTU on order. It sounds like just what i need after clearing some crab apple and other stuff from my future front yard.


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## Bill G (Sep 17, 2022)

quahog said:


> A vinegar soak will definitely help with rust removal, but it is a smelly mess that you'll still have to go hands on with a scrub brush afterwards.
> 
> When i lived in Indiana, I would hit all the indoor flea markets/consignment shops for the old flat irons and any older(or at least US made) vise. I use the flat irons on bookshelves and the vises are self explanatory.
> 
> ...


Trust me sir Tordon RTU is by far the most effective especially on a smaller scale. I know other disagree but heck we cannot all agree.

As for flat irons are you talking about the old heavy clothing irons that were used to press clothing? If so I have some to part with.

As for the conibears they must have been really bad. I was out today and last night scouting trapping locations. Looks like the ole beavers are back for another round. As for 110's they are a bit of a sore subject with me.


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## quahog (Sep 17, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Trust me sir Tordon RTU is by far the most effective especially on a smaller scale. I know other disagree but heck we cannot all agree.
> 
> As for flat irons are you talking about the old heavy clothing irons that were used to press clothing? If so I have some to part with.
> 
> As for the conibears they must have been really bad. I was out today and last night scouting trapping locations. Looks like the ole beavers are back for another round. As for 110's they are a bit of a sore subject with me.



Looking forward to trying the Tordon RTU for sure.

Thanks regarding the irons. I'm good now and well stocked up. Most of what I bought was in the 5ish dollar range, but I saw many for more money. They are useful for all sorts of stuff, book ends, door stops, paperweights, etc.

These conibears were bad and abused. I just use them for squirel pest control around the house here. Cleaned them up with vinegar, made sure the friction spots by the trigger was cleaned up, and painted black. Works like a charm. I'm not thrilled with the 110s-even with gray squirrels I often have to pop them in the head with a 22 to get a humane kill.


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## pdqdl (Sep 18, 2022)

Bill G said:


> There en lies the question I asked ATpro about. There are a lot of different thoughts on specific mixtures. Some say to use water because as you noted that is what RTU uses. Others say to use diesel while others use crop oil. A few use liquid nitrogen.
> 
> Then after you choose which of those to use the next question is to add 2-4-D or not. The current formulation of RTU is 5.4% Picloram, 20.9% 2-4-D, and 73.7% other ingredients. I asked ATpro about how much of it he used in his mixture. He answered ...
> 
> Since I am trying to gather as many opinions from folks that actually use it I will ask you.....what is your specific tank mix for using 22K on cut stumps. I asked M.D. Vaden about his/her specific tank mix of Glyphosate for cut stumps and he/she did not reply. Not sure why.



I just duplicate the math for the RTU. I don't figure there is any reason to try to beat the system that has been working for a long time.

For those fellows that want better kill, just put more of the stuff down. I killed a 100' tall stump in front of a billboard once with 1/2 gallon of Tordon RTU. Somehow that big cottonwood never woke up the next spring...


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## Bill G (Sep 18, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> I just duplicate the math for the RTU. I don't figure there is any reason to try to beat the system that has been working for a long time.
> 
> For those fellows that want better kill, just put more of the stuff down. I killed a 100' tall stump in front of a billboard once with 1/2 gallon of Tordon RTU. Somehow that big cottonwood never woke up the next spring...


That is my point. Some want to re-invent the damm wheel. Tordon is as close to 100% effective as any chemical can get at controlling what it is *labeled* for. Glyphosate is not designed for nor labeled for stump spray. It is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back. Anyone who does not believe me go talk to a farmer that took first cutting hay off a long established Alfalfa/Brome field with the intention to spray it with Glyphosate and follow with no till beans. Ask them whatt happened. How many re-sprays


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## pdqdl (Sep 18, 2022)

I'm not gonna argue about whether glyphosate doesn't kill plant like farmers expect. I know it does kill perennial plants for me. Failure to put down a pre-emergent or soil sterilant will be the cause of more plants coming up. It is also labeled for perennial grass suppression at reduced rates. If you are experiencing re-growth problems, I suggest you increase your rate of application.

Do you ever read the entire label on your herbicides? Here is the label for Roundup:




__





Product labels and SDS labels: post them or recover them here!


This sticky is limited to the inclusion of all your Turf & Ornamental Pesticides. Please load any you might have saved up as a PDF file only. Herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, algicides, whatever you got! We'd like to have a copy. With each post, try to include the text name of the Brand...




www.arboristsite.com








Bill G said:


> ...Glyphosate is not designed for nor labeled for stump spray. ...


A quote from the product label:
"*Cut Stump (Tree Crops)*​USE INSTRUCTIONS: Cut stump applications of this product may be made​during site preparation or site renovation, prior to transplanting tree crops. This​product will control regrowth of cut stumps and resprouts of many types of tree​species, some of which are listed below."​​


Bill G said:


> ...it is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back. ...


And then there is this:
"Product Description: This product is a postemergent, *systemic* herbicide with​no soil residual activity. It is generally non-selective and gives broad-spectrum​control of many annual weeds, *perennial weeds, woody brush and trees*.​​
I also have no doubt that herbicide resistance could be a problem with your observed re-growth of some plants. Roundup is so commonly used it should be expected that some plants will become resistant. I have a property I have been putting total soil sterilant on for about 35 years. Some of those weeds will laugh at Krovar, my old standby.


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## pdqdl (Sep 18, 2022)

Bill G said:


> ...It is a burn -down and will allow perennials to come back.



Perhaps you are confusing Reward Herbicide, or several other like them. Anything with Diquat as the active ingredient will perform that way, and their labels clearly state that. 

Liberty herbicide will do the same thing in my very limited experience. It never mentions the word "systemic" but it does claim to control perennials.


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## Bill G (Sep 18, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Perhaps you are confusing Reward Herbicide, or several other like them. Anything with Diquat as the active ingredient will perform that way, and their labels clearly state that.
> 
> Liberty herbicide will do the same thing in my very limited experience. It never mentions the word "systemic" but it does claim to control perennials.


No I am not confused and neither are all the others that farm and has used Roundup for years. Roundup is one tool. It is not the best tool in many situations. It is highly ineffective in many. That is why seed companies are getting far away from it by adding better genetics to allow better tool.. You mention a pre-emergence. Well that is tough and quite funny as the example I referenced was an actively growing alfalfa field. Just how do you treat that with a pre-emergence? The regrowth is not from seed it is from the root system that Glyphosate failed to kill.

Now it is getting way off subject so I will attempt to bring it back. The thread was about killing mature stumps that are sprouting immature sprouts. You and others talk about hw effective Glyphosate is for the task. How many commerically available "brush killers" use Glyphosate as their primary ingredient versus 2-4-D, Picloram, Triclopyr, or Imazapyr? I would really like to know.


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## pdqdl (Sep 19, 2022)

You wouldn't need to be so argumentative nor contentious with my statements if you would just read 'em a bit more carefully. 

Like I said, I'm not gonna argue with you about whether or not roundup kills perennials in farmers's fields.
Every jug of glyphosate sold is a brush killer, and I haven't yet seen one that didn't say so on the label. Which is kind of beside the point, because we both know it doesn't work quite as well. Same for stump treatment.
Like I said before, the glyphosate has an advantage: it poses no risk to adjacent vegetation that might be desired to retain. That's when you pull out the roundup, add some dye, and start treating the mulberry stump next to your wife's anniversary-planted rose bush. Or other weed trees in the landscape.


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## malquid (Sep 19, 2022)

I swear you guys would argue over a potato. 
I spray my slop tank(motor oil, thinner, gas, diesel), on cottonwoods. That works great.


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## Bill G (Sep 20, 2022)

V


malquid said:


> I swear you guys would argue over a potato.


Mashed, baked, or fried?


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## pdqdl (Sep 20, 2022)

Saladed!


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