# not much of a face cut



## forestryworks




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## clearance

Thats is it. 1/3 is no good for that crowd, 70 degree plus under cut, a tiny ways into the tree. Then the esteemed bore cut. Pound the snot out of a couple of wedges and then back cut.

If he made a decent sized undercut, he couldn't bore cut, so........


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## fonzie

Is that for real??
Surely he hasnt got a fallers ticket!!


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## Greystoke

> not much of a face cut



Nuff said


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## cbolyard

I'm real curious to know the logic behind using that style "face cut"...


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## CollegeLogger

Yes that is an open face cut and yes he's actually one of the five Park Service C instructors in the U.S. If you see the saw tilted sideways he's boring into the tree to set some wedges to directionally fall the tree. I dont remember this tree or day, but he was my engine supervisor for the park I worked at this summer.


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## clearance

CollegeLogger said:


> Yes that is an open face cut and yes he's actually one of the five Park Service C instructors in the U.S. If you see the saw tilted sideways he's boring into the tree to set some wedges to directionally fall the tree. I dont remember this tree or day, but he was my engine supervisor for the park I worked at this summer.



That guy is an instructor????:monkey:


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## Meadow Beaver

I would have never thought of this guy as an "instructor", Bill Lindloff comes to mind.


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## 380LGR

thats no open face,you need at least 40% of the diameter. He just scraped off the bark!!!


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## hutch3912

anyone thats cut hardwoods professionally in the east can attest to the bore cut. I wasn't sold of it at first but it saves you loosing the but of the log because a small face cut is accepted by the scalers. It also gives you alot more control on medium sized trees 8 -25 inches dbh if your going to have to wedge it anyways. thats all the game of logger guys do is bore cut trees and they have pin point accuracy where that tree is going to fall.


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## 380LGR

That man needs to go watch his video again.


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## forestryworks

so much for maximizing the width of the hinge.

backcut first and then face... could get a decent face in that way.


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## John Ellison

Reguardless of the bore cut arguement, that is a chintzy face. It might just be the picture but it looks like just bark and a little sapwood. 90% of the vertical cut is wasted. Seems like you could just wallow out a kerf face and it would do the same.

But you never know about a picture, it can look "funny" when it is not. As someone said he probably is a good faller. I have went back and looked at some of my stumps and wondered What he heck I was doing????


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## 380LGR

They say pictures dont lie..


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## fonzie

CollegeLogger said:


> Yes that is an open face cut and yes he's actually one of the five Park Service C instructors in the U.S. If you see the saw tilted sideways he's boring into the tree to set some wedges to directionally fall the tree. I dont remember this tree or day, but he was my engine supervisor for the park I worked at this summer.



I did see the saw tilted, but still cant see the reasoning behind the miniature front (face cut) I have never seen a front that small, I should imagine even loading with wedges the tree will most likely sit on the stump, but again I cant see the head of the tree so there may be reasoning behind a small to virtually no front/face cut maybe substantial head lean?? but again each to there own I wasnt there!!


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## Greystoke

*How to fall a tree???*

For what it's worth; if you are going to cut a tree the way that it is displayed in the pic, and it has any side lean at all, and that is not where you want it to go:monkeywhere it is leaning) You will NOT be able to control it with a little scratch of an undercut like that. This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...I had a friend from Germany that went to a "tree faller" school, who would "blaze" an undercut on a tree like that too, and could never understand the logic of how us Pacific Northwest Timber Fallers did it until he spent some time with the crews that I worked with for Columbia...then he understood, and could see how us poor dumb old boys did it If I were a guy wanting to REALLY learn how to fall timber, I would pay more attention to more guys like hotsaws101's videos (although, most of the techniques that he displays in his videos are fairly advanced and should ONLY be tried if a guy has some good timber falling mechanics and fundamentals), and shy away from all of the "procedural" "by the book" types. Just my two cents! I know..."I would never make it in their world, and they would never make it in mine"


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## Greystoke

John Ellison said:


> Reguardless of the bore cut arguement, that is a chintzy face. It might just be the picture but
> 
> 
> 
> it looks like just bark and a little sapwood. 90% of the vertical cut is wasted. Seems like you could just wallow out a kerf face and it would do the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuff said
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you never know about a picture, it can look "funny" when it is not. As someone said he probably is a good faller. I have went back and looked at some of my stumps and wondered What he heck I was doing????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Man...you are too nice!I need to take lessons:bang:
Click to expand...


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## slowp

Maybe he's not falling it. Maybe he's just using a saw instead of an axe to see how cooked the cambium layer is?


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## 056 kid

hutch3912 said:


> anyone thats cut hardwoods professionally in the east can attest to the bore cut. I wasn't't sold of it at first but it saves you loosing the but of the log because a small face cut is accepted by the scalers. It also gives you alot more control on medium sized trees 8 -25 inches dbh if your going to have to wedge it anyways. thats all the game of logger guys do is bore cut trees and they have pin point accuracy where that tree is going to fall.




I have cut some hardwood and I can not STAND that game of logging ####.

I use humblodts, saginaws, and kirf faces, with dutchmans, steps, and shelves... and i rarely if ever do any bore cutting.

the open face notch has so many flaws its not even funny.
the biggest twos are

1. sch a shallow face is a sure bet on having the tree peel the stump if there is any side lean.

2. it is *completely* inefficient, ripping for 1 minute to face a 24 inch tree.

There are more, but IMO, this technique should be abolished!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 056 kid

tarzanstree said:


> For what it's worth; if you are going to cut a tree the way that it is displayed in the pic, and it has any side lean at all, and that is not where you want it to go:monkeywhere it is leaning) You will NOT be able to control it with a little scratch of an undercut like that. This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...I had a friend from Germany that went to a "tree faller" school, who would "blaze" an undercut on a tree like that too, and could never understand the logic of how us Pacific Northwest Timber Fallers did it until he spent some time with the crews that I worked with for Columbia...then he understood, and could see how us poor dumb old boys did it If I were a guy wanting to REALLY learn how to fall timber, I would pay more attention to more guys like hotsaws101's videos (although, most of the techniques that he displays in his videos are fairly advanced and should ONLY be tried if a guy has some good timber falling mechanics and fundamentals), and shy away from all of the "procedural" "by the book" types. Just my two cents! I know..."I would never make it in their world, and they would never make it in mine"






Listen to him. . .


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## bullbuck

on a good greedy day getting paid by the piece i would likely not even face that pecker pole,i would be apt to just one cut it,certainly not the safest way to go about it,but if my saw was cutting fast that tree wouldnt even know what hit it,the way that guys got it scraped or whatever that is?i hope he doesn't show to many people his technique there


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## 380LGR

Its just wrong I dont care how you look at it.


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## fonzie

380LGR said:


> Its just wrong I dont care how you look at it.



Couldnt agree more, I have studied it a dozen times and still cant work it out why "bore cut" load and bash wedges when one doesnt need to, put in a bigger front maybe load one wedge to hold if needed,Makes a long day of falling trees bashing wedges and boring trees.


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## RRSsawshop

OMGTHATS SCARY !!! Why not cut it at a 45 degree no notch!!! Hope he PRAYS alot!!


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## clearance

Back cut first, a bit less than 2/3 in, put in wedge with hand only. Make undercut 1/3 in, do not cut off your holding wood. Hit the wedge with your axe, down she goes. Done it many times on small trees.


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## CollegeLogger

Yea i have to agree that for this the face cut was too shallow even for an open face cut. I've been with him when he cut 30inch ponderosas with an open face cut that had more of angle to them than the one in the picture. If I remember the tree did have a decent amount of back lean to it along with all the others on the slope. Some days the stumps just are not that good i guess. Jason is a very skilled sawyer that has years of excperience sawing all over the country on fires. He is only one of five "C" instructors for the park service and has certed me on my fires as a fireline sawyer. By the way where did you get that picture? I thought we only had those pictures on the crew files on the computers in the office.


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## clearance

CollegeLogger said:


> Jason is a very skilled sawyer that has years of excperience sawing all over the country on fires. He is only one of five "C" instructors for the park service and has certed me on my fires as a fireline sawyer.



Maybe it was bad day for him, but.... What is pictured is so wrong, and I am amazed at it. I guess I could just slink off into my cave, but west coast fallers have cut down millions and millions of trees, I have never seen or heard of falling like this. There must be a better explanation, this cannot be standard, please tell me I am wrong.


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## RRSsawshop

hutch3912 said:


> anyone thats cut hardwoods professionally in the east can attest to the bore cut. I wasn't sold of it at first but it saves you loosing the but of the log because a small face cut is accepted by the scalers. It also gives you alot more control on medium sized trees 8 -25 inches dbh if your going to have to wedge it anyways. thats all the game of logger guys do is bore cut trees and they have pin point accuracy where that tree is going to fall.



I cut hardwood in the east and do it for a living would say I'm semi pro!!! AND I use a HUMBOLT most of the time!!!:monkey:Thanks to a few guys on here...


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## ShoerFast

forestryworks said:


>



My Guess?

He is checking if it's going to be a good log or not.


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## ShoerFast

slowp said:


> Maybe he's not falling it. Maybe he's just using a saw instead of an axe to see how cooked the cambium layer is?



Yes!

And leave it if it's rotted, it looks like it got singed pretty good, probely the only way to tell what is inside.


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## bullbuck

clearance said:


> Back cut first, a bit less than 2/3 in, put in wedge with hand only. Make undercut 1/3 in, do not cut off your holding wood. Hit the wedge with your axe, down she goes. Done it many times on small trees.


:agree2:that is the proper way.sometimes on small trees i will notch it then just cut one side of the backcut enough for a wedge and set it firmly just on the one side then work on the other half trying not to cut the wedge,not much room to work on small trees


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## Metals406

What are y'all yammerin' on about? . . He's obviously boring a hole for the dynamite.


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## bullbuck

Metals406 said:


> What are y'all yammerin' on about? . . He's obviously boring a hole for the dynamite.



now that explains everything!dynamite assisted directional falling,yup thats gotta be it.


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## Metals406

bullbuck said:


> now that explains everything!dynamite assisted directional falling,yup thats gotta be it.



I don't want to judge the guy. . . But he may have been boring a hole for black powder.

Who am I to assess his explosive technique?


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## bullbuck

Metals406 said:


> I don't want to judge the guy. . . But he may have been boring a hole for black powder.
> 
> Who am I to assess his explosive technique?


seen couple different methods,but yeah black powder will definately get it done!


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## bullbuck

ShoerFast said:


> My Guess?
> 
> He is checking if it's going to be a good log or not.



in these parts you get about 3 to 5 months to salvage burnt pondo(from what i have seen) bugs will eat it right up,fir you get maybe two years?if you are lucky?that log looks solid but i bet its still laying there


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## Gologit

*Not much of an undercut...*

....and not much of a tree, either. Flat ground, no brush, he's real clean to be a faller...where do I sign up?


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## slowp

Gologit said:


> ....and not much of a tree, either. Flat ground, no brush, he's real clean to be a faller...where do I sign up?



The Albuquerque No Service Center. Good luck getting out of that quagmire.


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## bullbuck

there was a guy that cut with us here for a couple years,we referred to his strip as hangerville,eventually one came loose and hammered him flat.he turned out to be o.k.,but i heard the other day that he was teaching the f.s."falling"class and i had to chuckle


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## Greystoke

> bullbuck;1730815]there was a guy that cut with us here for a couple years,we referred to his strip as hangerville



We always called it tipi-ville


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## cbolyard

tarzanstree said:


> This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...



I've never seen an FS faller use this technique, or recommend it, or even mention it. The FS (at least here in the PNW) uses the 'ol reliable 1/3 diameter face cut/notch then back cut method.


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## Greystoke

cbolyard said:


> I've never seen an FS faller use this technique, or recommend it, or even mention it. The FS (at least here in the PNW) uses the 'ol reliable 1/3 diameter face cut/notch then back cut method.




Isn't this guy Forest Service:


CollegeLogger said:


> Yes that is an open face cut and yes he's actually one of the five Park Service C instructors in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> If you see the saw tilted sideways he's boring into the tree to set some wedges to directionally fall the tree. I dont remember this tree or day, but he was my engine supervisor for the park I worked at this summer.
Click to expand...


Just going by what he said...I am sure that things are different according to geography(kind of like between here and New Zealand:jester


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## bullbuck

tarzanstree said:


> We always called it tipi-ville



tipi-ville,i like that,there was an old timer here that referred to hangers as "stand up comedians"


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## John Ellison

*Attn. GypoLogger*

If you read this please re post that picture where you were showing how to do an open face undercut. Very informative.

HaHaha Actually he was poking fun at another member and showing how he would do it. The top cut of the face was about five feet long.


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## cbolyard

tarzanstree said:


> Isn't this guy Forest Service:
> 
> 
> Just going by what he said...I am sure that things are different according to geography(kind of like between here and New Zealand:jester



Forest Service and Park Service aren't even close to the same thing. If thats how the parkies wanna cut trees then power to them... I'll continue to do it the "regular" way


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## slowp

cbolyard said:


> Forest Service and Park Service aren't even close to the same thing. If thats how the parkies wanna cut trees then power to them... I'll continue to do it the "regular" way



The park people get the neat hats. But I think they have to wear polyester.


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## hammerlogging

No, pretty slim face. BUT....
- you can do all your cutting, get prepared for escape route, etc., all before the tree even moves.

- Directional felling is not nearly as cool as all the tricks, some of which have been discussed here, but it is precise, safe, systematic- even on that tall straight small softwood, probably a good way to teach people till they can start playing around some.

- if you cut large diameter eastern hardwoods and you don't bore cut you are wasting money, the butt log grade, and compromising your safety from barberchair, tree falling before you've finished cutting to your hinge, etc.. You would be laughed off our falling crew. Theres time for play, and theres time for saving out big money wood ( er, 1/2 big money wood these days....).

- I really enjoy playing with humboldt techniques where apppriopriate--- like poplars. Still, If I tried to pull that crap with a 1000 ft redoak with 24' downhill lean to swing it sideslope, it'd bust, and still go over the hill.

- I can trim my hinge down to about 3/4 of an inch on 90% of the trees, trim my sapwood, tust me, its the way to cut big hardwood. The only time my hinge is more than 3/4 inch wide is of I REALLY want to pull it around or don't want it to go down hill. If it has a heavy downhill leasn and I'm going sidehill, I make generally just go for a wider hinge (>80% diameter) rather than thicker)

kiwilogger, if you read this, I've been curious if they preach directional felling down there---- I'm sure they use it on the native virgin timber, but what about on the radiatta? I know it wouldn't be necessay, but for safety and all, is it being pushed?

Its got its place. Just probably not for pro fallers on 12" pine!!!! But, just a little salt for the conversation.


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## 056 kid

" tried to pull that crap with a 1000 ft redoak with 24' downhill lean to swing it sideslope, it'd bust, and still go over the hill. "



I have to disagree with you there. but the rest is quite factual.


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## hammerlogging

true, headlean is the real culprit, but if you were backcutting in that scenario your hingewood on the uphill side would still be busting into the log some as it pulls around. I don't know but man I love swinging them around, no matter how you do it! So you in OR ot VA?


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## 056 kid

OR right now, then back to VA for some of Christmas break.


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## GASoline71

I can prolly count on both hands how many times I have used a bore cut to fall a tree... and those were HEAVY head leaners...

Seems like a lot of extra work and BS... instead of just makin' a 3 cut fallin' job...

Gary


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## bullbuck

GASoline71 said:


> I can prolly count on both hands how many times I have used a bore cut to fall a tree... and those were HEAVY head leaners...
> 
> Seems like a lot of extra work and BS... instead of just makin' a 3 cut fallin' job...
> 
> Gary


to me it either will or wont go with a stock humboldt?if my guts tell me it wont,they are almost always right,thats where gaffs and cables(or a d6 winch cat)my personal preferance come in around powerlines and such,not to say i havent tried some heavy pulls,i do enjoy turning a tree but limit my pull ability to 30 degrees off the head lean and that is max.for me in softwood two log trees


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## 2dogs

GASoline71 said:


> I can prolly count on both hands how many times I have used a bore cut to fall a tree... and those were HEAVY head leaners...
> 
> Seems like a lot of extra work and BS... instead of just makin' a 3 cut fallin' job...
> 
> Gary



Yep. I'd actually like to see a GOL guy face and bore a 4' redwood or fir.

I was falling some small pine snags this past weekend in the Sierras. They tend to be limb locked and can be a real pain in the rear. I (tried to) fall an 18" Lodgepole (Tamarack) pine that I figured would be limb locked and it was. I pounded the heck out of two wedge stacks to try to unlock it. How would you do that with a GOL backcut with the strap hanging there. Yes you could cut it off but that just means more saw cuts and more time at the stump. A conventional backcut just makes things easier.


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## Gologit

GASoline71 said:


> I can prolly count on both hands how many times I have used a bore cut to fall a tree... and those were HEAVY head leaners...
> 
> Seems like a lot of extra work and BS... instead of just makin' a 3 cut fallin' job...
> 
> Gary



Yup. If you're trying to get wood on the ground you don't have time to play.


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## Gologit

slowp said:


> The park people get the neat hats. But I think they have to wear polyester.



Aren't they the ones that sing the Monty Python song?


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## Meadow Beaver

Watch now this goof ball will sign up for AS and tell us all that's how your supposed to do it because he's "certified".


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## got6ponies

*Euro faced WTH for?*

<object width="660" height="525"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dPb4y-Y5q0Q&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dPb4y-Y5q0Q&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="660" height="525"></embed></object>
:monkey::monkey:


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## WoodViking

*not a 1/3*

Without going too much into the discussion about bore cut or not I am still amazed that a lot of people have the impression that you have to make your cut 1/3 into the tree. 

The general rule is more likely to be 1/5 or 1/6 which is a lot shorter/smaller than many guys cut.

I know it is a small tree but I don't care what anybody says Tim Ard knows exactly what he is doing. The fun begins at 3:15 and 4:07:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFTOlmCijjs&feature=related


I think his saw sounds bad###


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## 2dogs

Well I have trimmed the butt swell off many trees before so that part looked fine even though that was a small tree without much swell. It was hard to see the face but that part looked OK too. I don't know why he didn't just saw the backcut instead of boring it but that is just technique I guess. It did take him a LONG TIME to get that tree on the ground.

He was hard on the clutch too.


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## 2dogs

WoodViking said:


> Without going too much into the discussion about bore cut or not I am still amazed that a lot of people have the impression that you have to make your cut 1/3 into the tree.
> 
> The general rule is more likely to be 1/5 or 1/6 which is a lot shorter/smaller than many guys cut.
> 
> I know it is a small tree but I don't care what anybody says Tim Ard knows exactly what he is doing. The fun begins at 3:15 and 4:07:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFTOlmCijjs&feature=related
> 
> 
> I think his saw sounds bad###



1/3 is a petty deep notch esp with a big tree. I do cut one that deep when falling snags that have no top weight.


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## hammerlogging

Its still just three cuts. Only sometimes do i leave the strap top pop from behind.

I've cut more than a handful of 4' plus red oaks, poplars, white oaks with a bore.


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## John Ellison

2dogs said:


> I do cut one that deep when falling snags that have no top weight.


 Those are a pain arent they?
The first time I cut down a big swell butt cedar snag that was only about 20ft. tall I put what I thought was a big undercut in it. Cut the hinge up to almost nothing and spent about half a day wedging on it. Nothing to hit it with like another tree. Finally got it over about quiting time and crawled out to the crummy. I asked some other guys how they got them down.
Make the first cut of the face in until it starts to set down on your bar. Its always around halfway in. It worked and sure made the next one easier. Its the only way to fall something that is shaped like a small tipi with the top missing unless you have something to pull or push with.


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## hammerlogging

when in rome, fall em' like the romans
when in appalachia, fall'em like the scandinavians


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## bullbuck

many ways to skin a cat,i guess if that method works for him,more power to him


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## forestryworks

what a waste of gas and oil and time in that video.


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## hammerlogging

speaking of cats, my cutting partner pulled in a perfect condition roadkill bobcat he found on the way to work. Planned to skin it at the end of the day, but it got a little warm out today.....

Hell of an animal, sorry to see it go that way, a real waste, but what a specimen, what an athlete. Now, back to bashing.

BTW, as far as wedgin goes, when falling a block, I look at which way its going to be logged out, the slope, and the average lean tot he stand (which always has a downhill component), and cut all my trees to best fit all three. I maybe slip a wedge in every tenth tree, and actually have to give it a couple knocks every 20th tree. 1/40 have to get hit hard, 1/100 I'm double stacking. Some go fast, some just barely creak around, but by and large, they go on their own.


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## bullbuck

forestryworks said:


> what a waste of gas and oil and time in that video.


i agree,in the old days a good two mann crosscut crew could have got it down faster,maybe a bit of an overstatement but,im thinking the guys on a day wage for sure.if anyone in these parts saw me cutting on a tree that way they would be certain i had lost my mind


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## chevytaHOE5674

bullbuck said:


> many ways to skin a cat,i guess if that method works for him,more power to him



Exactly, if the guy gets the tree on the ground safe then whats the big deal? 

His extra .02 seconds isn't costing you money is it?


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## 056 kid

WoodViking said:


> Without going too much into the discussion about bore cut or not I am still amazed that a lot of people have the impression that you have to make your cut 1/3 into the tree.
> 
> The general rule is more likely to be 1/5 or 1/6 which is a lot shorter/smaller than many guys cut.
> 
> I know it is a small tree but I don't care what anybody says Tim Ard knows exactly what he is doing. The fun begins at 3:15 and 4:07:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFTOlmCijjs&feature=related
> 
> 
> I think his saw sounds bad###







QUOTE=WoodViking;1733365]
"Without going too much into the discussion about bore cut or not I am still amazed that a lot of people have the impression that you have to make your cut 1/3 into the tree." 


mabe you dont have enough experience to know any better,

&nd thats what you think...

but you & your buds are a joke in my book and im young as hell ha ha....


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## bullbuck

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> Exactly, if the guy gets the tree on the ground safe then whats the big deal?
> 
> His extra .02 seconds isn't costing you money is it?



safety is certainly first,second efficiency,without taking away from his ability,that was a painstakingly slow falling job in my book


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## smokechase II

*Forest Circus*

*"This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...


I've never seen an FS faller use this technique, or recommend it, or even mention it. The FS (at least here in the PNW) uses the 'ol reliable 1/3 diameter face cut/notch then back cut method."*

=========

From Missouri east it does happen in some Forest Service locations. This reflects he way GOL has caught on back there. Hey, they have got the OSHA site to say that Open Face is clearly safer.

On the West Coast in the FS the GOL stuff is regarded as better entertainment than a horny dog and a football.

- - - - -

Mr John Ellison is correct. To the guy that posted about you don't need to go but 1/5th of the way for a face you're without a clue on bigger trees.

Open Face was developed in the smaller sized Northern Latitudes of Scandanavia - second growth - for the purpose of maximum utilization of a limited size resource.
The small face can result in greater utilization but it is a compromise. Any time you make a compromise, think about how that relates to your safety.

--------

On the video. Look at the body posture. Bent over at the max - exposing the largest section of spine possible - while studying the face like a #### movie - no awareness of anything else around - I suppose he could have put an arrow pointing to the target on his back with a double dawg dare ya sign...........


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## Gologit

smokechase II said:


> *"This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...
> 
> 
> I've never seen an FS faller use this technique, or recommend it, or even mention it. The FS (at least here in the PNW) uses the 'ol reliable 1/3 diameter face cut/notch then back cut method."*
> 
> =========
> 
> From Missouri east it does happen in some Forest Service locations. This reflects he way GOL has caught on back there. Hey, they have got the OSHA site to say that Open Face is clearly safer.
> 
> On the West Coast in the FS the GOL stuff is regarded as better entertainment than a horny dog and a football.
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> Mr John Ellison is correct. To the guy that posted about you don't need to go but 1/5th of the way for a face you're without a clue on bigger trees.
> 
> Open Face was developed in the smaller sized Northern Latitudes of Scandanavia - second growth - for the purpose of maximum utilization of a limited size resource.
> The small face can result in greater utilization but it is a compromise. Any time you make a compromise, think about how that relates to your safety.
> 
> --------
> 
> On the video. Look at the body posture. Bent over at the max - exposing the largest section of spine possible - while studying the face like a #### movie - no awareness of anything else around - I suppose he could have put an arrow pointing to the target on his back with a double dawg dare ya sign...........



Well said.


----------



## WoodViking

*Kids*



056 kid said:


> QUOTE=WoodViking;1733365]
> "Without going too much into the discussion about bore cut or not I am still amazed that a lot of people have the impression that you have to make your cut 1/3 into the tree."
> 
> 
> mabe you dont have enough experience to know any better,
> 
> &nd thats what you think...
> 
> but you & your buds are a joke in my book and im young as hell ha ha....




This post says a lot more about you then anybody else. When you grow up and loose the childish angle you look at things from then you will have a different opinion about a lot of aspects of life - on this one too.


----------



## 056 kid

WoodViking said:


> This post says a lot more about you then anybody else. When you grow up and loose the childish angle you look at things from then you will have a different opinion about a lot of aspects of life - on this one too.



I bet this "kid" could out cut you 3:1...
what do you think of them apples?????


we all know im young and I have alot to learn, but I know enough to go to work, come home safe with the bread, and do it all again the next day. but we also know that "children" are naturally gifted when it comes to timber falling right? pft...

you can go make your 1/6 notch on a heavy side leaner and watch it plummet to its desired lay taking 1/6 of the stump with it, I will stick with my 'childish' methods...


Yall haters love to pull the "kid" card on me when you dont like what i am saying, hahaha 



grow up!!


----------



## 056 kid

hammerlogging said:


> when in rome, fall em' like the romans
> when in appalachia, fall'em like the scandinavians



You are killing me with that one friend,


----------



## WoodViking

056 kid said:


> Dont change the subject wood viking..
> 
> 
> we all know im young and I have alot to learn, but I know enough to go to work, come home safe with the bread, and do it all again the next day. but we also know that "children" are naturally gifted when it comes to timber falling right? pft...
> 
> you can go make your 1/6 notch on a heavy side leaner and watch it plummet to its desired lay taking 1/6 of the stump with it, I will stick with my 'childish' methods...
> 
> 
> Yall haters love to pull the "kid" card on me when you dont like what i am saying, hahaha
> 
> 
> 
> grow up!!





Just to make that straight I am not a "hater" internet forums are not enough to make me hate anybody or anything. And I am definently not calling your methods childish - It's your attitude I am referring to.

You can do it the way you prefer but from what you say and the way you say it my guess is that you have had no training at all. I just want to show you how more experienced and better trained guys do it. And Tim Ard is definently a lot more skilled and a lot better trained than you and me.

Take it easy and tell us how you feel about things but a good advise would be to turn down the attitude thing - because that is what makes people "pull the kid card". And I will bet a full grown saw collection that a lot of us had exactly the same attitude as you do when we were younger but for some reason that changed with time.


----------



## chevytaHOE5674

bullbuck said:


> that was a painstakingly slow falling job in my book



So you lost how much time and money today because some guy on the internet was slow at felling a tree? 

Id rather him be slow and safe then slap a notch in, gun the backcut in and have the tree fall on him.


----------



## bullbuck

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> So you lost how much time and money today because some guy on the internet was slow at felling a tree?
> 
> Id rather him be slow and safe then slap a notch in, gun the backcut in and have the tree fall on him.



i dont want the guy to get hurt either,but the less time you spend at the stump gnawing on it the safer you are to me?3 cuts is all that is required of any tree that i have ever seen,(unless its a large tree then 6 cuts)that guy went around the tree almost twice stumbling in the brush all the way,if it were me i would have gunned that tree with both feet firmly planted in the same spot until it was time to clear the area and i would hve used my standard 30degree away from direction of fall cleared path for a clear escape route what that guy was doing was not safe at all to me.


----------



## chevytaHOE5674

bullbuck said:


> if it were me i would have gunned that tree with both feet firmly planted in the same spot until it was time to clear



Exactly "if it were me". Different ways to skin the same cat. 

Just because its not "how you do it", or "doesn't look safe on a 1 camera angle shot" doesn't mean that it isn't a valid way to do the job. You can't see the crown of the tree, or the surrounding environment. There's many ways to fell a tree and that just happened to be one of them.


----------



## GASoline71

056 kid said:


> Yall haters love to pull the "kid" card on me when you dont like what i am saying, hahaha
> 
> 
> 
> grow up!!



I wonder why? Could it be that you even sound like a braggart kid in most of your posts?

Hmm... opcorn:

Gary


----------



## 056 kid

I dont really want to sound like all the rest of you adults, I dont want to hate anyone either.

I do feel strongly about the way I do things though.


And if you aare talking ablot the fellow in the vid with his 051, well that should have taken less than 3 minutes imo.

I appreciate you wanting to help but thoes methods are well, dumb...


----------



## 056 kid

GASoline71 said:


> I wonder why? Could it be that you even sound like a braggart kid in most of your posts?
> 
> Hmm... opcorn:
> 
> Gary



gary you loon, I am not a horse...


----------



## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> Its still just three cuts. Only sometimes do i leave the strap top pop from behind.
> 
> I've cut more than a handful of 4' plus red oaks, poplars, white oaks with a bore.


Hey Hammer, when you do cut the strap do you make your cut in line with the plunge, or below it? A faller here in Ohio told me he cuts the strap about 1/2" below the plunge cut mainly if he thinks the tree might barber chair.


----------



## 2dogs

fmaglin said:


> Hey Hammer, when you do cut the strap do you make your cut in line with the plunge, or below it? A faller here in Ohio told me he cuts the strap about 1/2" below the plunge cut mainly if he thinks the tree might barber chair.



If you cut the holding wood too high or even with the backcut it can take your saw. Make the cut 2" below the backcut. (This is for heavy head leaners, about the only time I borecut.)


----------



## hammerlogging

hey 2dogs, I figure those eucalyptus are good ones for the bore cut method.

Yes, just below the backcut is best if there's lots of tension, but usually I am cutting straight out the back, or as I near the back of the cut I rotate around the tree and side swipe the strap with the tip, again just in one motion. For heavy leaners or where there is some other hazard where a concerted escape route is necessary I will pause and cut the strap from the back, and below it is the best for the reason 2dogs said.

For real heavy leaners, the tree can sit before you pull out to cut the strap- basswoods are bad about this, as are rotten trees, thus leaving an awfully large strap in sometimes an already tense situation. Just hit it hard with the full belly of your bar and dig dig dig my man, She'll break free and all will be ok. 

If its a heavy leaner I may use a root for the strap, but avoid this otherwise as I don't like cutting them for the strap, again, they're prone to grabbing your chain (and saw).

I have had one awful barberchair with a bore cut. A large hollow as a gourd POS Beech cull. Faced it, bored from one side, left plenty of wood to be a strap- as soon as I bored in the other side POW she blew scared the hell out of me, about a 30' barberchair, the trunk just rested up there on top of the barberchair with the crown on the ground. Left it for the hunters to ponder. Only time though. FYI, beeches have been undesired since the beginning of time and they are usually large, heavy topped, and only have about a 2" rind of wood holding them up. Great den trees, otherwise worthless. I girdle em more than drop them these days, for wildlife and silviculture- makes too big of an unnecessary mess for the loggers to drop that big old top for an unmerch stick of wood.


----------



## smokechase II

*West Coast Husky owners hang your heads*

_Anyone seen the new Husqvarna saw commercial?_

It shows glimpses of open face technique. 
Might want to get some paint or paint remover. Or some real dark huge movie star sunglasses. 
Any association on the left coast with that stuff could hurt a fella's self esteem.

====================

At least its the first time I've seen an open face faller look along the sights toward the target. Phew.


----------



## fmaglin

2dogs said:


> If you cut the holding wood to high or even with the backcut it cam take your saw. Make the cut 2" below the backcut. (This is for heavy head leaners, about the only time I borecut.)


Thanks 2dogs!


----------



## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> hey 2dogs, I figure those eucalyptus are good ones for the bore cut method.
> 
> Yes, just below the backcut is best if there's lots of tension, but usually I am cutting straight out the back, or as I near the back of the cut I rotate around the tree and side swipe the strap with the tip, again just in one motion. For heavy leaners or where there is some other hazard where a concerted escape route is necessary I will pause and cut the strap from the back, and below it is the best for the reason 2dogs said.
> 
> For real heavy leaners, the tree can sit before you pull out to cut the strap- basswoods are bad about this, as are rotten trees, thus leaving an awfully large strap in sometimes an already tense situation. Just hit it hard with the full belly of your bar and dig dig dig my man, She'll break free and all will be ok.
> 
> If its a heavy leaner I may use a root for the strap, but avoid this otherwise as I don't like cutting them for the strap, again, they're prone to grabbing your chain (and saw).
> 
> I have had one awful barberchair with a bore cut. A large hollow as a gourd POS Beech cull. Faced it, bored from one side, left plenty of wood to be a strap- as soon as I bored in the other side POW she blew scared the hell out of me, about a 30' barberchair, the trunk just rested up there on top of the barberchair with the crown on the ground. Left it for the hunters to ponder. Only time though. FYI, beeches have been undesired since the beginning of time and they are usually large, heavy topped, and only have about a 2" rind of wood holding them up. Great den trees, otherwise worthless. I girdle em more than drop them these days, for wildlife and silviculture- makes too big of an unnecessary mess for the loggers to drop that big old top for an unmerch stick of wood.


Thanks for the info Hammer. Are you cuttin anywheres near to the Ohio River?


----------



## Jacob J.

CollegeLogger said:


> Yes that is an open face cut and yes he's actually one of the five Park Service C instructors in the U.S. If you see the saw tilted sideways he's boring into the tree to set some wedges to directionally fall the tree. I dont remember this tree or day, but he was my engine supervisor for the park I worked at this summer.





CollegeLogger said:


> Yea i have to agree that for this the face cut was too shallow even for an open face cut. I've been with him when he cut 30inch ponderosas with an open face cut that had more of angle to them than the one in the picture. If I remember the tree did have a decent amount of back lean to it along with all the others on the slope. Some days the stumps just are not that good i guess. Jason is a very skilled sawyer that has years of excperience sawing all over the country on fires. He is only one of five "C" instructors for the park service and has certed me on my fires as a fireline sawyer. By the way where did you get that picture? I thought we only had those pictures on the crew files on the computers in the office.



There's more than five now...I happen to be one of them...



tarzanstree said:


> This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...



No, we never taught this in the Forest Service, BLM, State government, or anywhere else...such an assumption is asinine...




> If I were a guy wanting to REALLY learn how to fall timber, I would pay more attention to more guys like hotsaws101's videos (although, most of the techniques that he displays in his videos are fairly advanced and should ONLY be tried if a guy has some good timber falling mechanics and fundamentals)



Jack has some pretty good tricks in his videos for sure...but he also pulls some dumb and foolish stunts...he's gotten lucky many times...


----------



## Mike PA

hammerlogging said:


> FYI, beeches have been undesired since the beginning of time and they are usually large, heavy topped, and only have about a 2" rind of wood holding them up. Great den trees, otherwise worthless. I girdle em more than drop them these days, for wildlife and silviculture- makes too big of an unnecessary mess for the loggers to drop that big old top for an unmerch stick of wood.



Huh? Beech trees worthless to wildlife? Never heard that one before. Ever hear of beechnuts? I always thought critters liked them. I guess the turkeys and deer I see eating the nuts must be wrong, too.


----------



## fmaglin

Mike PA said:


> Huh? Beech trees worthless to wildlife? Never heard that one before. Ever hear of beechnuts? I always thought critters liked them. I guess the turkeys and deer I see eating the nuts must be wrong, too.


I think Hammer is saying that most of the Beech trees are mostly suitable for animal dens due to the older growth trees usually having about a 2" thick rind holding them up, and the rest of the trunk being hollow. 

I would have to agree with that as the tract we are cutting in now has many Beech blow downs and everyone is hollow. The tops do make for good firewood though. Back in the late 1980s mostly every timber buyer out here would offer you "blocking" price for beech, with the exception of one that would pay a little more selling the logs (if not hollow) to a basket company.


----------



## chevytaHOE5674

On the eastern end of the UP they have beautiful beech trees. Makes great veneer and saw logs, if the beech bark disease hasn't killed them first. Great wildlife trees, great lumber trees, never in my life have I heard them called worthless before.


----------



## Greystoke

> Jacob J.;1735648]There's more than five now...I happen to be one of them...
> 
> 
> 
> No, we never taught this in the Forest Service, BLM, State government, or anywhere else...such an assumption is asinine...



Okay??? :monkey: I made my "asinine assumption" because I saw the picture that started this thread, and then somebody gets on here and confirms that he is an "instructor". So when you say "we never taught this", are you saying that this guy is not an instructor? Okay, so you do not teach that cut, but that "instructor" CLEARLY is at least using it for himself, and maybe his students see him, or photograph him using it and think: "if our instructor does it this way, then that must be how it's done".



> Jack has some pretty good tricks in his videos for sure...but he also pulls some dumb and foolish stunts...he's gotten lucky many times...



I have been around enough good timber fallers to know one when I see one


----------



## 2dogs

Mike PA said:


> Huh? Beech trees worthless to wildlife? Never heard that one before. Ever hear of beechnuts? I always thought critters liked them. I guess the turkeys and deer I see eating the nuts must be wrong, too.



I would agree that beech trees have no value. That can be confirmed by watching the wildlife. They only chew Redman. OK, sometimes Cope.


----------



## slowp

Ahhh, Falling Gentlemen, an explanation is needed. The original guy in the photo was Park Service, which is not to be confused with the other agencies mentioned. Not to worry, it is a common error. We have National Forests then we have National Parks. The two are different, although that difference is becoming less, but that would be a different topic. Now, shake hands if you don't have the flu, and all will be right with the universe for a brief time.


----------



## Jacob J.

tarzanstree said:


> Okay??? :monkey: I made my "asinine assumption" because I saw the picture that started this thread, and then somebody gets on here and confirms that he is an "instructor". So when you say "we never taught this", are you saying that this guy is not an instructor? Okay, so you do not teach that cut, but that "instructor" CLEARLY is at least using it for himself, and maybe his students see him, or photograph him using it and think: "if our instructor does it this way, then that must be how it's done".
> 
> 
> 
> I have been around enough good timber fallers to know one when I see one



I don't know the individual in the picture, but it's obvious he's NPS, not USFS, BLM, or a state agency individual. You made the blanket statement "That's how they teach it in the Forest Service" without doing any real research. I've worked for all of the above agencies and have been a falling instructor for all of the above, including certifying class "C" fallers (I got my "C" falling certification at age 19.) I've never seen that style of face cut used by an agency sawyer up until now and I've never seen it demonstrated in a falling class for any agency. I've also never seen it used in private industry during the many years I was a timber falling contractor.



slowp said:


> Ahhh, Falling Gentlemen, an explanation is needed. The original guy in the photo was Park Service, which is not to be confused with the other agencies mentioned. Not to worry, it is a common error. We have National Forests then we have National Parks. The two are different, although that difference is becoming less, but that would be a different topic. Now, shake hands if you don't have the flu, and all will be right with the universe for a brief time.



I couldn't have explained it better myself.


----------



## Greystoke

Jacob J. said:


> I don't know the individual in the picture, but it's obvious he's NPS, not USFS, BLM, or a state agency individual.
> 
> 
> 
> You made the blanket statement "That's how they teach it in the Forest Service" without doing any real research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is a "Blanket Statement" Park service, Forest service, you all look the same to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have worked for all of the above agencies and have been a falling instructor for all of the above, including certifying class "C" fallers (I got my "C" falling certification at age 19.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you get a merit badge for becoming a class "C" faller
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't have explained it better myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uhh...actually you could have explained it better, before accusing me of making "asinine assumptions"??? Oh well! Good thing slowp cleared it up
Click to expand...


----------



## Jacob J.

tarzanstree said:


> Did you get a merit badge for becoming a class "C" faller



No, but getting that certification at such a young age is almost impossible, especially in today's political climate.

Merit Badges don't pay the bills, son....






> Uhh...actually you could have explained it better, before accusing me of making "asinine assumptions"??? Oh well! Good thing slowp cleared it up



If I had known you were so thin-skinned, I would have phrased it differently...


----------



## Greystoke

2dogs said:


> I would agree that beech trees have no value. That can be confirmed by watching the wildlife. They ony chew Redman. OK, sometimes Cope.



Now that's funny rot thar!


----------



## Greystoke

=Jacob J.;1736685]


> No, but getting that certification at such a young age is almost impossible, especially in today's political climate.
> 
> Merit Badges don't pay the bills, son....



Sorry Dad...Just thought you needed a pat on the back.








> If I had known you were so thin-skinned, I would have phrased it differently...



Did not hurt my feelings I'm only funnin!


----------



## Jacob J.

tarzanstree said:


> =Jacob J.;1736685]
> 
> Sorry Dad...Just thought you needed a pat on the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did not hurt my feelings I'm only funnin!



Ok, ok, I do need a pat on the back now and then. It's a ##### getting old, you know...


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> Ahhh, Falling Gentlemen, an explanation is needed. The original guy in the photo was Park Service, which is not to be confused with the other agencies mentioned. Not to worry, it is a common error. We have National Forests then we have National Parks. The two are different, although that difference is becoming less, but that would be a different topic. Now, shake hands if you don't have the flu, and all will be right with the universe for a brief time.



What about National Monuments, huh, huh? What kind of fallers do they have?

BLM and USFS should be combined into one agency under the jurisdiction of the BLMUSFSNPSFWSNPCIA division of the Department of Non-Taxable Lands and Forests.

Whew, this Rockstar is causing me to halucinate!


----------



## RandyMac

Looks like a typical Fed project, overly complicated, half assed, dangerous and ineffective. Don't get me started on the NPS, in my book, they are pretty much the bottom of the lower shelf. There is way too much "book learnin'" and not near enough practical expirence in the Government services.
That guy in the pic, had he been on my crew, would have been carryin a McLeod, if I saw him cuttin like that. Panzyass new age crap.


----------



## Jacob J.

RandyMac said:


> Looks like a typical Fed project, overly complicated, half assed, dangerous and ineffective.



Good thing there's a population of experienced contractors to fall back on...


----------



## slowp

Now, don't judge everybody by that. We have a couple of guys here who do most of the hazard tree work. It is a different world, they're dropping big trees, really big trees, along with little ones. They aren't boa####l, aren't show offs and have worked together for 25 years. We like them. They will turn down trees, and then we call in the really big guns--former old growth production fallers. Both with old injuries that stop them from falling full time. 
The older injured guys were and probably still are amongst the elite fallers from that time. 

Unfortunately, both of our fallers have been kept as seasonals. I won't say why here, I think those who have worked in the FS know why. They deserve better. 

And I agree, the BLM and FS should combine. Except I want to wear cotton uniforms, none of that polyester stuff. That latter is something I fought for. 
But that's off topic.


----------



## Jacob J.

I think, as mentioned previously, that the differences in government are more regional rather than agency. I've worked for them all and they all had the same or similar problems. I was treated the best when I worked on the hotshot crews or when I was a contractor. I was treated the worst when I was an engine slug and fuels crew member.


----------



## slowp

I think our guys put this one on the ground. Barbie and hardhat are for scale.
They smoothed out the stump and butt because it needed to be tidy looking in the picanic area. The tree buried itself in the dirt a bit. I'd guess it to be around 6 feet in diameter or only a few inches shorter.


----------



## forestryworks

polyester clothing isn't good if you're gonna be on/near fires.

it does dry faster than cotton though.


----------



## hammerlogging

Mike PA said:


> Huh? Beech trees worthless to wildlife? Never heard that one before. Ever hear of beechnuts? I always thought critters liked them. I guess the turkeys and deer I see eating the nuts must be wrong, too.



I stand corrected, yes, wildlife food value AND den trees.
I guess I got narrow minded, all forestry, not comprehensive view. And yes, the wood can be exceptionally nice. I work in a disturbance regime forest type dominated by shade intolerant species. The beech that are around were hollow back in the 1920's and left, in the 70s/80s and still left, and now they're big dangerous trees taking up good space. VERY rare to find one that I would classify as timber. In this forest type.

So now I have a better rationalization than safety for the ones we dont girdle or drop. Den and food. BUT, the food from a quality growth timber tastes as good as from a 48" hollow rotten POS, so lets work on those.

We've had ones so crappy that once girdled, when they get bumped during the logging they collapsed right near the hookers. BS. Hookers don't deserve that (chokersetters).


----------



## Rftreeman

clearance said:


> That guy is an instructor????:monkey:


I puzzled as well..........


----------



## Danger Cat

*Who Are You???*



Jacob J. said:


> There's more than five now...I happen to be one of them...
> 
> 
> 
> No, we never taught this in the Forest Service, BLM, State government, or anywhere else...such an assumption is asinine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack has some pretty good tricks in his videos for sure...but he also pulls some dumb and foolish stunts...he's gotten lucky many times...



So Have we ever worked around each other.??? 
Things always look different when you are standing there...
Unless you have cut in everywhere on the planet my friend, there is still a lot of learning to be had! Additionally, I am not really sure what makes your opinion the end all in timberfalling knowledge? Please let me know.
By definition a faller takes risk just by being a faller. I probably take a little more than the average guy, but it is calculated and well thought out.. I show things that are possible, but it does not mean everyone should try it. Sometimes a maneuver has to be made you would rather not so the strip comes out right. I do not do to many things by accident any more..
Just because you never tried a move, seen it done before, or heard about it does not mean it is dumb or foolish. The guy doing it needs to make that determination and weigh it out > it is his life.
For the record: You first plumb a tree 90 degrees from where you want it to go. If it leans in the desired direction it is called head lean. If it does not lean the way you want it to go it is called back lean. The only other place you plumb from is 180 degrees from the way you want it to go unless the limbs (rare) make it so you can not see the bole. You would, at that point, plumb from where you want it to go. 
If you have any more comments about my style I would appreciate them being directed toward me instead of randomly on this site or some other, because essentially it is behind my back if they are not.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Jack


----------



## the dude

Well it took a while but I finally have something to say. First, that was worse than bad. Second, don't let that speak for all N.P.S. fallers some of us know better than that. Around here in yose-mite cuts like that will kill you. A few really good fallers and climbers around these parts. Don't let this guy speak for the rest of us.


----------



## Jacob J.

Danger Cat said:


> So Have we ever worked around each other.???
> Things always look different when you are standing there...
> Unless you have cut in everywhere on the planet my friend, there is still a lot of learning to be had! Additionally, I am not really sure what makes your opinion the end all in timberfalling knowledge? Please let me know.
> By definition a faller takes risk just by being a faller. I probably take a little more than the average guy, but it is calculated and well thought out.. I show things that are possible, but it does not mean everyone should try it. Sometimes a maneuver has to be made you would rather not so the strip comes out right. I do not do to many things by accident any more..
> Just because you never tried a move, seen it done before, or heard about it does not mean it is dumb or foolish. The guy doing it needs to make that determination and weigh it out > it is his life.
> For the record: You first plumb a tree 90 degrees from where you want it to go. If it leans in the desired direction it is called head lean. If it does not lean the way you want it to go it is called back lean. The only other place you plumb from is 180 degrees from the way you want it to go unless the limbs (rare) make it so you can not see the bole. You would, at that point, plumb from where you want it to go.
> If you have any more comments about my style I would appreciate them being directed toward me instead of randomly on this site or some other, because essentially it is behind my back if they are not.
> Thanks and have a nice day!
> Jack



I agree that there's always a lot of learning to be had in this job, and I've cut timber in every state west of the Miss., Alaska, and Canada. I'm still learning constantly and don't fool myself into thinking that I'm the be-all end-all of anything. However, when you post videos of yourself on the internet, in fun and for entertainment, you open yourself up for criticism. That's just the way of life, human nature, and the internet. I face the same thing every time I teach a saw handling and falling class or when I certify students as fallers (in both government and private industry.)

The reason I post the comments that I do here is because young guys see your videos and fall in love with what you're doing and how you conduct yourself. Then they want to be like you and do the things you're doing, as evidenced by the way they talk about it, the copycat videos I see, and people asking me if these techniques really work "well I saw hotsaws101 doing it", etc. etc. Part of keeping young log cutters healthy is teaching them patience, finesse, and not to be too aggressive for their skill level. 

As far as posting randomly on this site or any other, you were always welcome to join the discussion here and it's good that you're here now. This is the biggest forum and open discussion on the internet (as far as I know) on forestry and tree service related issues. The comments here are seen by tens of thousands of people every day. It's important that a professional manner be maintained. 

As far as head lean, back lean, and side lean go- How those and other terms are used in your area doesn't mean they're universal. Northern California is nice, but it's not the whole world.


----------



## Jacob J.

the dude said:


> Well it took a while but I finally have something to say. First, that was worse than bad. Second, don't let that speak for all N.P.S. fallers some of us know better than that. Around here in yose-mite cuts like that will kill you. A few really good fallers and climbers around these parts. Don't let this guy speak for the rest of us.



I don't know that we even really know what's going on in the picture for sure...


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Jacob J. said:


> I agree that there's always a lot of learning to be had in this job, and *I've cut timber in every state west of the Miss., Alaska, **and Canada.* I'm still learning constantly and don't fool myself into thinking that I'm the be-all end-all of anything. However, when you post videos of yourself on the internet, in fun and for entertainment, you open yourself up for criticism. That's just the way of life, human nature, and the internet. I face the same thing every time I teach a saw handling and falling class or when I certify students as fallers (in both government and private industry.)
> 
> The reason I post the comments that I do here is because young guys see your videos and fall in love with what you're doing and how you conduct yourself. Then they want to be like you and do the things you're doing, as evidenced by the way they talk about it, the copycat videos I see, and people asking me if these techniques really work "well I saw hotsaws101 doing it", etc. etc. Part of keeping young log cutters healthy is teaching them patience, finesse, and not to be too aggressive for their skill level.
> 
> As far as posting randomly on this site or any other, you were always welcome to join the discussion here and it's good that you're here now. This is the biggest forum and open discussion on the internet (as far as I know) on forestry and tree service related issues. The comments here are seen by tens of thousands of people every day. It's important that a professional manner be maintained.
> 
> As far as head lean, back lean, and side lean go- How those and other terms are used in your area doesn't mean they're universal. Northern California is nice, but it's not the whole world.



JJ you forgot Hawaii :greenchainsaw:


----------



## the dude

O.K. maybe I kinda made myself seem a little like a jerk or a little arrogant but that's not how meant to sound.I got a little defensive when everybody was saying how parkies suck. I take great pride in my job and where I work.Anyhoo what I was prolly trying to say is that where you are at is going to have a huge influence on how you cut. We cut decent size stuff quite often. Doesn't mean I'm or we are the greatest there ever was maybe just that I haven't seen a cut like that.Kinda seems like a waste of gas and sweat to face a tree like that. The only true bash on this thread is yes we do wear polyester but it's free polyester. So cheers and happy cutting.


----------



## slowp

You should fight to switch to cotton. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## the dude

No way polyeeester stinks way worse when you sweat,its cold in the winter and hot in the summer and makes you look way more official.


----------



## slowp

Is it true you have to go to a week long training session to learn to wear that hat?


----------



## the dude

That will get you started. Then,of course, there is gonna be some more training.


----------



## Danger Cat

Jacob J. said:


> I agree that there's always a lot of learning to be had in this job, and I've cut timber in every state west of the Miss., Alaska, and Canada. I'm still learning constantly and don't fool myself into thinking that I'm the be-all end-all of anything. However, when you post videos of yourself on the internet, in fun and for entertainment, you open yourself up for criticism. That's just the way of life, human nature, and the internet. I face the same thing every time I teach a saw handling and falling class or when I certify students as fallers (in both government and private industry.)
> 
> The reason I post the comments that I do here is because young guys see your videos and fall in love with what you're doing and how you conduct yourself. Then they want to be like you and do the things you're doing, as evidenced by the way they talk about it, the copycat videos I see, and people asking me if these techniques really work "well I saw hotsaws101 doing it", etc. etc. Part of keeping young log cutters healthy is teaching them patience, finesse, and not to be too aggressive for their skill level.
> 
> As far as posting randomly on this site or any other, you were always welcome to join the discussion here and it's good that you're here now. This is the biggest forum and open discussion on the internet (as far as I know) on forestry and tree service related issues. The comments here are seen by tens of thousands of people every day. It's important that a professional manner be maintained.
> 
> As far as head lean, back lean, and side lean go- How those and other terms are used in your area doesn't mean they're universal. Northern California is nice, but it's not the whole world.




I guess to me maintaining a professional atmosphere means you are dealing with or talking to that person directly, not about them. Especially when they are unaware it is even going on. I have seen a lot of interesting things on YouTube and have yet to make an unprovoked, snide comment about someone elses' style. If you are going to bag on my style then be decent enough to do it directly. I might be a little slow, but not stupid. 
I have cut logs in Washington, Oregon, all over northern Cali., and in So. Cal. - Julian to be exact. Head lean has been when it is already listing the right direction. Kind of like driving a car, a boat, or whatever - ahead is the way you go. This came from my grandpa who hand fell old growth with a misery whip and a sharp axe. This is also like how you plumb a tree. 90 degrees from where you need it to go. If it leans that way it is head lean, if it does not the tree leans back. You then plumb it from 180 degrees of the desired falling direction, unless (and this is rare) the limbs prevent you from seeing the bole of the tree. At that point, you have to go to the front or way you need it to go. This reading tells you the side lean. You can NOT compensate for the lean (and limb weight) with the face cut unless you know what the actual lean characteristics are. Therefore, if you do not know how the tree leans you can not be that accurate with the it. If you are plumbing it from other places you will get false readings, that is simple geometry.
Why is this important? Because when you are felling big, tall timber, to hit the shot it is CRITICAL they take off the right direction (unless a swing is used). The taller they are the more critical it becomes! I am talking about non pulled trees here, of course.
You are right, I post some of the vids. for the fun of it, to show what is possible (if all goes right), and my way of doing it. And yes they really work, I am not a computer whiz... I have never said it is the only way any of the manuvers can be done. They are always well thought out and calculated, with the escape route ready. The nickname was given to me because I will try things that are on the edge - this does not make me foolish, I am well aware of the ramifications if something goes wrong. Just because I do it does not mean everyone should. Log cutters are an independent lot and most will try new things. My thought is now, if one way to do it is shown, then at least there is a basis for the starting point. It is up to the individual to realize if they are capable. 
It is possible to show someone ways to do things and coversely, ways that will get you killed. However, you can not teach finesse, it is acquired. Just like timberfalling, they are learned things.
As far as influencing someone, that was never miy intention.
In regard to the Humboldt undercut, you guys only have it half right. Originally it was two paralell, flat cuts put in by the old drag saws that were nailed to the tree, around Humboldt Bay. You guys are talking about a "modified" Humboldt undercut where the bottom cut is put in at an angle toward the ground. 
It is important to realize, a modified Humboldt is less accurate than the original (when done correctly) and the farmers face - top cut taken out of butt of the tree. 
One more note in relating to that professionalism thing, some of the guys on this forum should take the time to ask a few questions of the guy doing the work > who knows, they might even learn something from this dumby.

___________________________________

If you are paying attention...there is still some learning to be had!


----------



## Gologit

Danger Cat said:


> I guess to me maintaining a professional atmosphere means you are dealing with or talking to that person directly, not about them. Especially when they are unaware it is even going on. I have seen a lot of interesting things on YouTube and have yet to make an unprovoked, snide comment about someone elses' style. If you are going to bag on my style then be decent enough to do it directly. I might be a little slow, but not stupid.
> I have cut logs in Washington, Oregon, all over northern Cali., and in So. Cal. - Julian to be exact. Head lean has been when it is already listing the right direction. Kind of like driving a car, a boat, or whatever - ahead is the way you go. This came from my grandpa who hand fell old growth with a misery whip and a sharp axe. This is also like how you plumb a tree. 90 degrees from where you need it to go. If it leans that way it is head lean, if it does not the tree leans back. You then plumb it from 180 degrees of the desired falling direction, unless (and this is rare) the limbs prevent you from seeing the bole of the tree. At that point, you have to go to the front or way you need it to go. This reading tells you the side lean. You can NOT compensate for the lean (and limb weight) with the face cut unless you know what the actual lean characteristics are. Therefore, if you do not know how the tree leans you can not be that accurate with the it. If you are plumbing it from other places you will get false readings, that is simple geometry.
> Why is this important? Because when you are felling big, tall timber, to hit the shot it is CRITICAL they take off the right direction (unless a swing is used). The taller they are the more critical it becomes! I am talking about non pulled trees here, of course.
> You are right, I post some of the vids. for the fun of it, to show what is possible (if all goes right), and my way of doing it. And yes they really work, I am not a computer whiz... I have never said it is the only way any of the manuvers can be done. They are always well thought out and calculated, with the escape route ready. The nickname was given to me because I will try things that are on the edge - this does not make me foolish, I am well aware of the ramifications if something goes wrong. Just because I do it does not mean everyone should. Log cutters are an independent lot and most will try new things. My thought is now, if one way to do it is shown, then at least there is a basis for the starting point. It is up to the individual to realize if they are capable.
> It is possible to show someone ways to do things and coversely, ways that will get you killed. However, you can not teach finesse, it is acquired. Just like timberfalling, they are learned things.
> As far as influencing someone, that was never miy intention.
> In regard to the Humboldt undercut, you guys only have it half right. Originally it was two paralell, flat cuts put in by the old drag saws that were nailed to the tree, around Humboldt Bay. You guys are talking about a "modified" Humboldt undercut where the bottom cut is put in at an angle toward the ground.
> It is important to realize, a modified Humboldt is less accurate than the original (when done correctly) and the farmers face - top cut taken out of butt of the tree.
> One more note in relating to that professionalism thing, some of the guys on this forum should take the time to ask a few questions of the guy doing the work > who knows, they might even learn something from this dumby.
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> If you are paying attention...there is still some learning to be had!



You're preaching to the choir. Don't tell us...show us.


----------



## fmaglin

Danger Cat said:


> I guess to me maintaining a professional atmosphere means you are dealing with or talking to that person directly, not about them. Especially when they are unaware it is even going on. I have seen a lot of interesting things on YouTube and have yet to make an unprovoked, snide comment about someone elses' style. If you are going to bag on my style then be decent enough to do it directly. I might be a little slow, but not stupid.
> I have cut logs in Washington, Oregon, all over northern Cali., and in So. Cal. - Julian to be exact. Head lean has been when it is already listing the right direction. Kind of like driving a car, a boat, or whatever - ahead is the way you go. This came from my grandpa who hand fell old growth with a misery whip and a sharp axe. This is also like how you plumb a tree. 90 degrees from where you need it to go. If it leans that way it is head lean, if it does not the tree leans back. You then plumb it from 180 degrees of the desired falling direction, unless (and this is rare) the limbs prevent you from seeing the bole of the tree. At that point, you have to go to the front or way you need it to go. This reading tells you the side lean. You can NOT compensate for the lean (and limb weight) with the face cut unless you know what the actual lean characteristics are. Therefore, if you do not know how the tree leans you can not be that accurate with the it. If you are plumbing it from other places you will get false readings, that is simple geometry.
> Why is this important? Because when you are felling big, tall timber, to hit the shot it is CRITICAL they take off the right direction (unless a swing is used). The taller they are the more critical it becomes! I am talking about non pulled trees here, of course.
> You are right, I post some of the vids. for the fun of it, to show what is possible (if all goes right), and my way of doing it. And yes they really work, I am not a computer whiz... I have never said it is the only way any of the manuvers can be done. They are always well thought out and calculated, with the escape route ready. The nickname was given to me because I will try things that are on the edge - this does not make me foolish, I am well aware of the ramifications if something goes wrong. Just because I do it does not mean everyone should. Log cutters are an independent lot and most will try new things. My thought is now, if one way to do it is shown, then at least there is a basis for the starting point. It is up to the individual to realize if they are capable.
> It is possible to show someone ways to do things and coversely, ways that will get you killed. However, you can not teach finesse, it is acquired. Just like timberfalling, they are learned things.
> As far as influencing someone, that was never miy intention.
> In regard to the Humboldt undercut, you guys only have it half right. Originally it was two paralell, flat cuts put in by the old drag saws that were nailed to the tree, around Humboldt Bay. You guys are talking about a "modified" Humboldt undercut where the bottom cut is put in at an angle toward the ground.
> It is important to realize, a modified Humboldt is less accurate than the original (when done correctly) and the farmers face - top cut taken out of butt of the tree.
> One more note in relating to that professionalism thing, some of the guys on this forum should take the time to ask a few questions of the guy doing the work > who knows, they might even learn something from this dumby.
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> If you are paying attention...there is still some learning to be had!


Well said.


----------



## Jacob J.

Danger Cat said:


> I guess to me maintaining a professional atmosphere means you are dealing with or talking to that person directly, not about them. Especially when they are unaware it is even going on. I have seen a lot of interesting things on YouTube and have yet to make an unprovoked, snide comment about someone elses' style. If you are going to bag on my style then be decent enough to do it directly. I might be a little slow, but not stupid.
> I have cut logs in Washington, Oregon, all over northern Cali., and in So. Cal. - Julian to be exact. Head lean has been when it is already listing the right direction. Kind of like driving a car, a boat, or whatever - ahead is the way you go. This came from my grandpa who hand fell old growth with a misery whip and a sharp axe. This is also like how you plumb a tree. 90 degrees from where you need it to go. If it leans that way it is head lean, if it does not the tree leans back. You then plumb it from 180 degrees of the desired falling direction, unless (and this is rare) the limbs prevent you from seeing the bole of the tree. At that point, you have to go to the front or way you need it to go. This reading tells you the side lean. You can NOT compensate for the lean (and limb weight) with the face cut unless you know what the actual lean characteristics are. Therefore, if you do not know how the tree leans you can not be that accurate with the it. If you are plumbing it from other places you will get false readings, that is simple geometry.
> Why is this important? Because when you are felling big, tall timber, to hit the shot it is CRITICAL they take off the right direction (unless a swing is used). The taller they are the more critical it becomes! I am talking about non pulled trees here, of course.
> You are right, I post some of the vids. for the fun of it, to show what is possible (if all goes right), and my way of doing it. And yes they really work, I am not a computer whiz... I have never said it is the only way any of the manuvers can be done. They are always well thought out and calculated, with the escape route ready. The nickname was given to me because I will try things that are on the edge - this does not make me foolish, I am well aware of the ramifications if something goes wrong. Just because I do it does not mean everyone should. Log cutters are an independent lot and most will try new things. My thought is now, if one way to do it is shown, then at least there is a basis for the starting point. It is up to the individual to realize if they are capable.
> It is possible to show someone ways to do things and coversely, ways that will get you killed. However, you can not teach finesse, it is acquired. Just like timberfalling, they are learned things.
> As far as influencing someone, that was never miy intention.
> In regard to the Humboldt undercut, you guys only have it half right. Originally it was two paralell, flat cuts put in by the old drag saws that were nailed to the tree, around Humboldt Bay. You guys are talking about a "modified" Humboldt undercut where the bottom cut is put in at an angle toward the ground.
> It is important to realize, a modified Humboldt is less accurate than the original (when done correctly) and the farmers face - top cut taken out of butt of the tree.
> One more note in relating to that professionalism thing, some of the guys on this forum should take the time to ask a few questions of the guy doing the work > who knows, they might even learn something from this dumby.
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> If you are paying attention...there is still some learning to be had!



This forum is much more open than making comments on youtube. 99% of what I see there is ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blind praise. If you want talk on the phone, I'd be more than happy to do that...

Around here (southern Oregon), the "modified" Humboldt became the Humboldt undercut in the mid-late 40's, about the time when modern one-man chainsaws became reliable enough to use everyday. The style you're referring to became known as the "block-out" style Humboldt or old-growth Humboldt. I got my info first hand from guys that were there doing the work- my dad, uncles, grandpa, great-grandpa, great-great grandpa, and all their brothers. There's a lot of guys on this forum that know what the block-out style Humboldt, modified Humboldt, modified Conventional, and open face are. The block-out Humboldt isn't necessary in smaller timber or in most species, that's why the modified Humboldt became the standard. I have used the block-out cut in large Redwood, Western Red Cedar, and old, old Ponderosa Pine. 

Finesse can be taught. If you have or ever teach someone how to run a saw and cut timber, you will see how easy it is to teach finesse. Showing someone how to keep their tip out of the dirt is one example. 

I do respect the fact that you've posted some videos showing what can go wrong too. I went back and watched some of your older videos last night. There's good stuff in there. 

I have actually talked to you before. I bought some stuff from your e-bay store and there were some problems. I still have parts in my spares box with the "hotsaws101" card attached to them because the saws I ordered them for were long gone by the time I finally got the parts.


----------



## Metals406

Jacob J. said:


> This forum is much more open than making comments on youtube. 99% of what I see there is ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blind praise. If you want talk on the phone, I'd be more than happy to do that...
> 
> Around here (southern Oregon), the "modified" Humboldt became the Humboldt undercut in the mid-late 40's, about the time when modern one-man chainsaws became reliable enough to use everyday. The style you're referring to became known as the "block-out" style Humboldt or old-growth Humboldt. I got my info first hand from guys that were there doing the work- my dad, uncles, grandpa, great-grandpa, great-great grandpa, and all their brothers. There's a lot of guys on this forum that know what the block-out style Humboldt, modified Humboldt, modified Conventional, and open face are. The block-out Humboldt isn't necessary in smaller timber or in most species, that's why the modified Humboldt became the standard. I have used the block-out cut in large Redwood, Western Red Cedar, and old, old Ponderosa Pine.
> 
> Finesse can be taught. If you have or ever teach someone how to run a saw and cut timber, you will see how easy it is to teach finesse. Showing someone how to keep their tip out of the dirt is one example.
> 
> I do respect the fact that you've posted some videos showing what can go wrong too. I went back and watched some of your older videos last night. There's good stuff in there.
> 
> I have actually talked to you before. I bought some stuff from your e-bay store and there were some problems. I still have parts in my spares box with the "hotsaws101" card attached to them because the saws I ordered them for were long gone by the time I finally got the parts.



:sword:

opcorn:


----------



## hammerlogging

Jacob J. said:


> Finesse can be taught. If you have or ever teach someone how to run a saw and cut timber, you will see how easy it is to teach finesse. Showing someone how to keep their tip out of the dirt is one example.



thats not finesse, thats chainsaw 101, if I may. (if any feathers are ruffled it was only in a punny sort of way)

I do not believe that just anybody's got it, seen too many fallers that can get em on the ground, but dont have that fluid skillz. The flow. The spirit. And their production falters for it, and they wear out. Suckers.


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## 056 kid

nicely spoken


----------



## Jacob J.

hammerlogging said:


> thats not finesse, thats chainsaw 101, if I may. (if any feathers are ruffled it was only in a punny sort of way)
> 
> I do not believe that just anybody's got it, seen too many fallers that can get em on the ground, but dont have that fluid skillz. The flow. The spirit. And their production falters for it, and they wear out. Suckers.



My experience has been different. I was clumsy doofus when I first started and the old timers showed me how to 'get it'. Since then I've started a bunch of guys out who were also clumsy doofuses and showed them how to 'get it'. There will always be people who will never get it, but most people are trainable in all things...


----------



## Danger Cat

Jacob J. said:


> This forum is much more open than making comments on youtube. 99% of what I see there is ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blind praise. If you want talk on the phone, I'd be more than happy to do that...
> 
> Around here (southern Oregon), the "modified" Humboldt became the Humboldt undercut in the mid-late 40's, about the time when modern one-man chainsaws became reliable enough to use everyday. The style you're referring to became known as the "block-out" style Humboldt or old-growth Humboldt. I got my info first hand from guys that were there doing the work- my dad, uncles, grandpa, great-grandpa, great-great grandpa, and all their brothers. There's a lot of guys on this forum that know what the block-out style Humboldt, modified Humboldt, modified Conventional, and open face are. The block-out Humboldt isn't necessary in smaller timber or in most species, that's why the modified Humboldt became the standard. I have used the block-out cut in large Redwood, Western Red Cedar, and old, old Ponderosa Pine.
> 
> Finesse can be taught. If you have or ever teach someone how to run a saw and cut timber, you will see how easy it is to teach finesse. Showing someone how to keep their tip out of the dirt is one example.
> 
> I do respect the fact that you've posted some videos showing what can go wrong too. I went back and watched some of your older videos last night. There's good stuff in there.
> 
> I have actually talked to you before. I bought some stuff from your e-bay store and there were some problems. I still have parts in my spares box with the "hotsaws101" card attached to them because the saws I ordered them for were long gone by the time I finally got the parts.



I had to laugh after reading the latest. So now you are bagging on the YouTubers that are "making 99% of the ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blind praise" comments as if they are a bunch idiots. That they are unable to discern smooth workmen ship, and generally cannot tell where they might be with their skill set. This is just not true. There are quite a few fallers making comments that have just as much (maybe more) experience as the rest of us.
Unfortunately, you have it backward. The original Humboldt undercut (blocked out undercut) was first. Let’s review. The Humboldt undercut was two parallel cuts put in with a saw (most of the time a foot or two apart). Side note; if the mondo trees did not start off going the right direction, generally, the shot was missed which is one reason why most of the time the cuts were not that far apart, also the smaller blocks were easier to handle. Back on track now… It was then taken out in, a or several, blocks via a peeling bar or corner bit of a cat blade if handy, or what ever else worked. Later on, the fallers started taking the bottom cut out at a angle toward the ground. This is a variation of the original, hence MODIFIED Humboldt. It is easier to get out but not necessarily more acc-u-rat. I got my information from being there, doing the work, and trying variations of all, not second hand. Incidentally, I never heard anyone refer to the original as an old growth Humboldt. Just Humboldt. It does not really matter where you use it or what kind of tree. Side note, if there are special timing needs it is one of the better choices. What you are saying is like the race guys showing up with a 500cc Rotax sporting a bar and chain. Then saying it is a chainsaw because this is how we do it now > ??? 
My Dad had an adage : those who can’t, teach. Mine is; if you are going to teach, get it right.
Hammerlogger says it best, “thats not finesse, thats chainsaw 101, if I may. (if any feathers are ruffled it was only in a punny sort of way)

I do not believe that just anybody's got it, seen too many fallers that can get em on the ground, but dont have that fluid skillz. The flow. The spirit. And their production falters for it, and they wear out. Suckers.” 

Who can argue with that? The HammerMan (if I may call you that?) nails it, except, maybe, for the suckers part. It is pain full to watch, pain full for the guy, and pain full for the trees when it is a "no flow" thing. Just like everone else, I am gulity of this on occasion. I kinda feel sorry for a guy that is always beating his brains out because he cannot seem to figure out the plumb operation. Additionally, you do not go from clumsy doofus saw in the dirt guy, and after someone shows you one time how to look for the color change between the bark and cambium layer, to Mr. Finesse Extraordinaire. That takes time, some never get it. I still hit the deck occasionally, usually the bark is gone though.
I show some things going wrong because it gives others that might try a heads up on what to possibility watch out for. But mostly, it is because I am far from perfect, and can admit it. Not really sure why you would waste the time checking out the videos of a “dumb fool” like me. Do me a favor, don’t bother any more. There is nothing for you to learn. You are obviously smarter, a better faller, and of course better looking than I. Nobody has to ask…
One more poke at the professionalism comment that you made first. In regard to the eBay problems, you make it sound like it was months and months before the parts arrived. You and I both know this is not true either. Unless the P.O. had problems delivering them? There was a time that I had to go out of state to attend to some family matters. Twice within a few days of one another. Everyone that bought parts was understanding , except one… You probably know him though. If there was a real issue, you should have made it known long, long ago. When you do not , it is not me that looks like the snake in the grass. Send them back, I would be happy to give full credit.
It is unfortunate that you feel the need to try and slander me (eBay comments) here on this forum. You must be a very bitter human being, and that is really to bad. I will be praying that you realize we all make mistakes, and that no one is immune from them. 
In summation, we could talk on the phone but, it would not get us anywhere. I have never been able to help out the self righteous that are among us.
I wish you the best with your endeavors, though. Good Luck!
_________________________________________

If you are paying attention, there is still some learning to be had!


----------



## 056 kid

Guys around would argue with Sir Isaac Newton about gravity...


----------



## Gologit

056 kid said:


> Guys around would argue with Sir Isaac Newton about gravity...



LOL...Yup kinda like bar room or bunkhouse arguments...but without the fist fights. So far anyway.

But...look beyond the arguing and listen to the information both are providing. There's stuff to learn from in there. You just have to figure out which is good and which is bad and which you can use.

Arguments are another way to spread information...the decibel level just gets kinda high.


----------



## hammerlogging

What makes me think "STUPID" is all this crap about better not tell so and so how to do something because they might not be good enouth to handle it. Cause we do things every day that are risky, we constantly take calculated risks, that we dance on the edge and atleast for me, in addition to the great views, outside work, "national geographic moments" (seeing cool stuff), chance to use my body and get in the flow etc., is why I am a ####ing logger. If some dude wants to ask a ####ing logger is this or that possible, he can. If some dude wants to try this for himself, he can. And he can die. And I can die. And we are not responsible for ech other because nobody made nobody do nothing. Whats the point of this forum, not talking about advanced technique so no nobody tries something over their head? Its Darwin, he'll sort out the mess for us. If a non pro asks a pro something, he'll get (hopefully) a pro answer but PLEASE let each of us be accountable for our own actions. If some dude is stupid enough to cut a tree with 2 leaners in it because he heard it could be done, welll, it can be done, its not safe, but we can explain that it may be possible......DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.

BTW, my new Wesco timber boots are SWEEEEET comapred to my old POS hoffman calks w/ block heels. Weathers good, leaves are turning, couldn't be happier than to be a logger.


----------



## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> What makes me think "STUPID" is all this crap about better not tell so and so how to do something because they might not be good enouth to handle it. Cause we do things every day that are risky, we constantly take calculated risks, that we dance on the edge and atleast for me, in addition to the great views, outside work, "national geographic moments" (seeing cool stuff), chance to use my body and get in the flow etc., is why I am a ####ing logger. If some dude wants to ask a ####ing logger is this or that possible, he can. If some dude wants to try this for himself, he can. And he can die. And I can die. And we are not responsible for ech other because nobody made nobody do nothing. Whats the point of this forum, not talking about advanced technique so no nobody tries something over their head? Its Darwin, he'll sort out the mess for us. If a non pro asks a pro something, he'll get (hopefully) a pro answer but PLEASE let each of us be accountable for our own actions. If some dude is stupid enough to cut a tree with 2 leaners in it because he heard it could be done, welll, it can be done, its not safe, but we can explain that it may be possible......DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.
> 
> BTW, my new Wesco timber boots are SWEEEEET comapred to my old POS hoffman calks w/ block heels. Weathers good, leaves are turning, couldn't be happier than to be a logger.


I hear this all the time., both from bosses and other workers. "Why did you do it that way?" "That way is too dangerous." "Here's how I do it". My answer goes like this: Because that's the way I do it! It might be the right way or it might be the wrong way; however, it is the way I am comfortable with. Sometimes I may have to use extra caution sometimes not. I feel that I'm a mature enough individual to make sound decisions based on my experience. I'm always looking for a better way, and am willing to try different techniques that would improve my productivity, but as you said earlier, one must DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. 
By the way, what size are your old POS Hoffmans? Maybe you'd be interested in workin a deal?


----------



## 056 kid

hammerlogging said:


> What makes me think "STUPID" is all this crap about better not tell so and so how to do something because they might not be good enouth to handle it. Cause we do things every day that are risky, we constantly take calculated risks, that we dance on the edge and atleast for me, in addition to the great views, outside work, "national geographic moments" (seeing cool stuff), chance to use my body and get in the flow etc., is why I am a ####ing logger. If some dude wants to ask a ####ing logger is this or that possible, he can. If some dude wants to try this for himself, he can. And he can die. And I can die. And we are not responsible for ech other because nobody made nobody do nothing. Whats the point of this forum, not talking about advanced technique so no nobody tries something over their head? Its Darwin, he'll sort out the mess for us. If a non pro asks a pro something, he'll get (hopefully) a pro answer but PLEASE let each of us be accountable for our own actions. If some dude is stupid enough to cut a tree with 2 leaners in it because he heard it could be done, welll, it can be done, its not safe, but we can explain that it may be possible......DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.
> 
> BTW, my new Wesco timber boots are SWEEEEET comapred to my old POS hoffman calks w/ block heels. Weathers good, leaves are turning, couldn't be happier than to be a logger.





Its the basic dumbing down of america, 

Making sure people are ####ing retarded frome coast to coast.

Thats why I get so agrivated when smartasses tell me my way of doing things is wrong & dangerous and I am infact un-skilled and careless,

#### then the smartasses post up pics of there saw is binded UNDER a leaning tree cause they didnt notice the lack of sound wood on the upper side of the tree.


----------



## Jacob J.

Danger Cat said:


> I had to laugh after reading the latest. So now you are bagging on the YouTubers that are "making 99% of the ridiculous knee-jerk reactions and blind praise" comments as if they are a bunch idiots. That they are unable to discern smooth workmen ship, and generally cannot tell where they might be with their skill set. This is just not true. There are quite a few fallers making comments that have just as much (maybe more) experience as the rest of us.
> Unfortunately, you have it backward. The original Humboldt undercut (blocked out undercut) was first. Let’s review. The Humboldt undercut was two parallel cuts put in with a saw (most of the time a foot or two apart). Side note; if the mondo trees did not start off going the right direction, generally, the shot was missed which is one reason why most of the time the cuts were not that far apart, also the smaller blocks were easier to handle. Back on track now… It was then taken out in, a or several, blocks via a peeling bar or corner bit of a cat blade if handy, or what ever else worked. Later on, the fallers started taking the bottom cut out at a angle toward the ground. This is a variation of the original, hence MODIFIED Humboldt. It is easier to get out but not necessarily more acc-u-rat. I got my information from being there, doing the work, and trying variations of all, not second hand. Incidentally, I never heard anyone refer to the original as an old growth Humboldt. Just Humboldt. It does not really matter where you use it or what kind of tree. Side note, if there are special timing needs it is one of the better choices. What you are saying is like the race guys showing up with a 500cc Rotax sporting a bar and chain. Then saying it is a chainsaw because this is how we do it now > ???
> My Dad had an adage : those who can’t, teach. Mine is; if you are going to teach, get it right.
> Hammerlogger says it best, “thats not finesse, thats chainsaw 101, if I may. (if any feathers are ruffled it was only in a punny sort of way)
> 
> I do not believe that just anybody's got it, seen too many fallers that can get em on the ground, but dont have that fluid skillz. The flow. The spirit. And their production falters for it, and they wear out. Suckers.”
> 
> Who can argue with that? The HammerMan (if I may call you that?) nails it, except, maybe, for the suckers part. It is pain full to watch, pain full for the guy, and pain full for the trees when it is a "no flow" thing. Just like everone else, I am gulity of this on occasion. I kinda feel sorry for a guy that is always beating his brains out because he cannot seem to figure out the plumb operation. Additionally, you do not go from clumsy doofus saw in the dirt guy, and after someone shows you one time how to look for the color change between the bark and cambium layer, to Mr. Finesse Extraordinaire. That takes time, some never get it. I still hit the deck occasionally, usually the bark is gone though.
> I show some things going wrong because it gives others that might try a heads up on what to possibility watch out for. But mostly, it is because I am far from perfect, and can admit it. Not really sure why you would waste the time checking out the videos of a “dumb fool” like me. Do me a favor, don’t bother any more. There is nothing for you to learn. You are obviously smarter, a better faller, and of course better looking than I. Nobody has to ask…
> One more poke at the professionalism comment that you made first. In regard to the eBay problems, you make it sound like it was months and months before the parts arrived. You and I both know this is not true either. Unless the P.O. had problems delivering them? There was a time that I had to go out of state to attend to some family matters. Twice within a few days of one another. Everyone that bought parts was understanding , except one… You probably know him though. If there was a real issue, you should have made it known long, long ago. When you do not , it is not me that looks like the snake in the grass. Send them back, I would be happy to give full credit.
> It is unfortunate that you feel the need to try and slander me (eBay comments) here on this forum. You must be a very bitter human being, and that is really to bad. I will be praying that you realize we all make mistakes, and that no one is immune from them.
> In summation, we could talk on the phone but, it would not get us anywhere. I have never been able to help out the self righteous that are among us.
> I wish you the best with your endeavors, though. Good Luck!
> _________________________________________
> 
> If you are paying attention, there is still some learning to be had!




You misunderstood my post about the "block-out" style Humboldt. I said the block-out style Humboldt came first and then the modified Humboldt (where the bottom cut is angled towards the ground) came along...it was easier to cut the block-out style with crosscuts, and then 'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom. The modified Humboldt was the standard when I went to work in the woods in '90, we just weren't cutting timber big enough to warrant a block-out style cut. Further directional control could be established by leaving a gap where the flat and angled cuts meet on the modern Humboldt...

Finesse does take time to acquire, regardless of the industry. It takes time to build skills and learn control. If we were to take you out of the woods and put you in a helicopter, you wouldn't be smooth or have much finesse right away. However, if you trained and worked with someone who was experienced and could show you the right moves, you'd get it eventually. Most new cutters are painful to watch...

The reason why I mentioned the e-bay deal is that I thought it was quite interesting that you were not willing to communicate with me when I was a customer with a problem, but you wanted to communicate when you though I was 'bagging' on your style. That's very telling of how you operate...
You never mentioned family problems or anything to me (if you had said something, anything- it wouldn't have been an issue.) And it did take two months to get the parts. What you finally told me was that you were busy with work and simply did not have time to ship the parts. I made it known to you immediately and was very easy-going about the situation. You created the acrimony and animosity. I was fixing up saws for log cutter buddies of mine that took a Superior contract down by Gold Beach and needed the extra saws. When I decided you weren't going to send the parts I simply bought new ones. No worries there. I'll gladly send your parts back though. 

Your defensive reactions tell me everything I need to know...


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Jacob J. said:


> You misunderstood my post about the "block-out" style Humboldt. I said the block-out style Humboldt came first and then the modified Humboldt (where the bottom cut is angled towards the ground) came along...it was easier to cut the block-out style with crosscuts, and then 'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom. The modified Humboldt was the standard when I went to work in the woods in '90, we just weren't cutting timber big enough to warrant a block-out style cut. Further directional control could be established by leaving a gap where the flat and angled cuts meet on the modern Humboldt...
> 
> Finesse does take time to acquire, regardless of the industry. It takes time to build skills and learn control. If we were to take you out of the woods and put you in a helicopter, you wouldn't be smooth or have much finesse right away. However, if you trained and worked with someone who was experienced and could show you the right moves, you'd get it eventually. Most new cutters are painful to watch...
> 
> The reason why I mentioned the e-bay deal is that I thought it was quite interesting that you were not willing to communicate with me when I was a customer with a problem, but you wanted to communicate when you though I was 'bagging' on your style. That's very telling of how you operate...
> You never mentioned family problems or anything to me (if you had said something, anything- it wouldn't have been an issue.) And it did take two months to get the parts. What you finally told me was that you were busy with work and simply did not have time to ship the parts. I made it known to you immediately and was very easy-going about the situation. You created the acrimony and animosity. I was fixing up saws for log cutter buddies of mine that took a Superior contract down by Gold Beach and needed the extra saws. When I decided you weren't going to send the parts I simply bought new ones. No worries there. I'll gladly send your parts back though.
> 
> Your defensive reactions tell me everything I need to know...



I'm smell bad blood between the two of you. :fart: :check: :sword: :sword:


----------



## hammerlogging

fmaglin said:


> By the way, what size are your old POS Hoffmans? Maybe you'd be interested in workin a deal?



Not to my worst enemy. 13. Torture chambers, you can really tell once you get back on a pair of decent boots. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> Not to my worst enemy. 13. Torture chambers, you can really tell once you get back on a pair of decent boots. I'll keep you posted.



"Torture Chambers"?


----------



## Jacob J.

MMFaller39 said:


> I'm smell bad blood between the two of you.



Not as far as I'm concerned. Mistakes happen, I've made plenty myself. It's time to move on...


----------



## Tzed250

Just finished reading this thread, it is just like the rest that came before it.....


----------



## 2dogs

hammerlogging said:


> What makes me think "STUPID" is all this crap about better not tell so and so how to do something because they might not be good enouth to handle it. Cause we do things every day that are risky, we constantly take calculated risks, that we dance on the edge and atleast for me, in addition to the great views, outside work, "national geographic moments" (seeing cool stuff), chance to use my body and get in the flow etc., is why I am a ####ing logger. If some dude wants to ask a ####ing logger is this or that possible, he can. If some dude wants to try this for himself, he can. And he can die. And I can die. And we are not responsible for ech other because nobody made nobody do nothing. Whats the point of this forum, not talking about advanced technique so no nobody tries something over their head? Its Darwin, he'll sort out the mess for us. If a non pro asks a pro something, he'll get (hopefully) a pro answer but PLEASE let each of us be accountable for our own actions. If some dude is stupid enough to cut a tree with 2 leaners in it because he heard it could be done, welll, it can be done, its not safe, but we can explain that it may be possible......DECIDE FOR YOURSELF.
> 
> BTW, my new Wesco timber boots are SWEEEEET comapred to my old POS hoffman calks w/ block heels. Weathers good, leaves are turning, couldn't be happier than to be a logger.



I respectfully disagree with you on this one. I won't hand out advice on a situation where there appears to be significant risk and the cutter is a rookie. I believe there are times when a pro is called for.


----------



## 056 kid

2dogs said:


> I respectfully disagree with you on this one. I won't hand out advise on a situation where there appears to be significant risk and the cutter is a rookie. I believe there are times when a pro is called for.



Then how would you expect the rook to ever get better?


If you are so stupid to blatantly surpass your level of skill, #### you have no business in the business.

timber falling in itself is a game of calculated risk, there is no safe tree, they all have different variables that need consideration..


----------



## 2dogs

056 kid said:


> Then how would you expect the rook to ever get better?
> 
> 
> If you are so stupid to blatantly surpass your level of skill, #### you have no business in the business.
> 
> timber falling in itself is a game of calculated risk, there is no safe tree, they all have different variables that need consideration..



I would expect a rookie to improve by being shown personally by an experienced person. I think in a dangerous situation like a leaner that just reading about how to mitigate the problem on the internet is an invitation to disaster. Some instruction requires that student have the instructor right next to him. Kind of like flying an airplane.


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Jacob J. said:


> Not as far as I'm concerned. Mistakes happen, I've made plenty myself. It's time to move on...



Well that's good, sorry you had to wait so long for your stuff. I got a set of dogs from him and they made to my house, all the way across the country in 4 days.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> I respectfully disagree with you on this one. I won't hand out advise on a situation where there appears to be significant risk and the cutter is a rookie. I believe there are times when a pro is called for.



Agreed...up to a point. One of the reasons I seldom, if ever, reply to those goofy "how would you fall this tree" threads is that I'm not right there at the tree to look at it. Photography and diagrams are fine but unless I can walk around it, plumb it, check the lean, check the lay, watch the wind...all the things I do in real life every day, I really hesitate to make any kind of comment on it. Too many variables. I can't really assess the faller's level of skill either unless I've seen him work and seen him work for awhile. Again, too many variables. I don't mind rookies, everybody starts out that way, but too many guys on here figure if they can get a tree to fall over by gnawing away at it with a saw that they're fallers. I have more respect for the guy _asking_ the question than some of the guys _answering _ it sometimes.

The guys on here who know their stuff about falling, and logging in general, 
are easy to identify and their information is almost always good. One of the themes that run through all of their threads is the advice to get help with any situation that you feel uncomfortable about. If your gut tells you that a falling job is dangerous...listen to your gut. Either pick somebody you damn well[ I]know[/I] is competent to help and advise you or hire a pro and watch how they make things happen.

That being said, I _will_ chime in, and loudly too, if a situation is obviously dangerous or if the guy with the saw is doing something stupid that can hurt him. I think we owe that to each other. I've taught a few guys to fall but it sure wasn't some kind of correspondent course.


----------



## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> Agreed...up to a point. One of the reasons I seldom, if ever, reply to those goofy "how would you fall this tree" threads is that I'm not right there at the tree to look at it. Photography and diagrams are fine but unless I can walk around it, plumb it, check the lean, check the lay, watch the wind...all the things I do in real life every day, I really hesitate to make any kind of comment on it. Too many variables. I can't really assess the faller's level of skill either unless I've seen him work and seen him work for awhile. Again, too many variables. I don't mind rookies, everybody starts out that way, but too many guys on here figure if they can get a tree to fall over by gnawing away at it with a saw that they're fallers. I have more respect for the guy _asking_ the question than some of the guys _answering _ it sometimes.
> 
> The guys on here who know their stuff about falling, and logging in general,
> are easy to identify and their information is almost always good. One of the themes that run through all of their threads is the advice to get help with any situation that you feel uncomfortable about. If your gut tells you that a falling job is dangerous...listen to your gut. Either pick somebody you damn well[ I]know[/I] is competent to help and advise you or hire a pro and watch how they make things happen.
> 
> That being said, I _will_ chime in, and loudly too, if a situation is obviously dangerous or if the guy with the saw is doing something stupid that can hurt him. I think we owe that to each other. I've taught a few guys to fall but it sure wasn't some kind of correspondent course.



Did you just agree with me? LOL

Hey, how is the weather up your way? I just fed the horse and got drenched just opening the gate. The coast north of Santa Cruz got hit pretty hard by wind and rain. This was the area of the Lockheed fire this past summer. A reverse 911 call went out and SO was going door to door today advising people to evacuate all the low lying areas. My wife had an emergency call back today also.


----------



## hammerlogging

Gologit said:


> I've taught a few guys to fall but it sure wasn't some kind of correspondent course.



Roger that, you and 2dogs both, I understand your point.
I still think anyone has to be accountable for themselves, but I'll reconsider your points


----------



## 056 kid

2dogs said:


> I would expect a rookie to improve by being shown personally by an experienced person. I think in a dangerous situation like a leaner that just reading about how to mitigate the problem on the internet is an invitation to disaster. Some instruction requires that student have the instructor right next to him. Kind of like flying an airplane.



Cant argue that..


----------



## Burvol

In terms of learning to fall and buck  logs, everyone looks at it in a different light. I want to be as good or better than the guys in my family that came before me, as I love my Dad and what he has done with his carreer. He saw potential in me and knows I love the work. I respect what he did for me in helping me grow, therefore anything short of all that I have is complete dishonorment in my opinion. 

What makes other cutters tick is their business, but I feel that if your not into trying to grow into a good log cutter and work on your game every week you should not attempt it. I am not claiming to be the cutter to end all log cutters, but I have my heart and life invested into it now and I know how it feels to crawl out of bed and do it all over again. _There has to be some comitment there_. There are always going to be naysayers, has beens, wash-ups and hacks who will critize the one questionable thing you did instead of walking your whole strip or an entire unit. Falling timber is a body of work, not a few sticks here and there around a landing. 

When I met Bushler last fall, he was kind enough to give me a couple weeks of cutting and a place to stay. He was shovel logging cable ground out of Gold Beach. I had strip all cut except two wolfy, hammer azz Hemlocks on a wierd bench on a steep, steep face. Tan Oak cut and shotgunned friggin' every where. They both leaned up the hill pretty hard. I knew they were both going to come right back on me if I let them loose up the steep cut, so I put a Dutchman in them (not the best species to do so) and pulled them around, quarted down hill. He made a comment to me about having balls, and we talked about log cutting.

I told him that I didn't think that was a brave move. I thought falling it up that mess with no place to hardly go was. I guess it's all how you calculate the risk, and what your skill level can do with it. You can grow and learn alot if you can keep your pride in check and your ear plugs out when there is good cutter around.


----------



## 2dogs

Burvol said:


> In terms of learning to fall and buck  logs, everyone looks at it in a different light. I want to be as good or better than the guys in my family that came before me, as I love my Dad and what he has done with his carreer. He saw potential in me and knows I love the work. I respect what he did for me in helping me grow, therefore anything short of all that I have is complete dishonorment in my opinion.
> 
> What makes other cutters tick is their business, but I feel that if your not into trying to grow into a good log cutter and work on your game every week you should not attempt it. I am not claiming to be the cutter to end all log cutters, but I have my heart and life invested into it now and I know how it feels to crawl out of bed and do it all over again. _There has to be some comitment there_. There are always going to be naysayers, has beens, wash-ups and hacks who will critize the one questionable thing you did instead of walking your whole strip or an entire unit. Falling timber is a body of work, not a few sticks here and there around a landing.
> 
> When I met Bushler last fall, he was kind enough to give me a couple weeks of cutting and a place to stay. He was shovel logging cable ground out of Gold Beach. I had strip all cut except two wolfy, hammer azz Hemlocks on a wierd bench on a steep, steep face. Tan Oak cut and shotgunned friggin' every where. They both leaned up the hill pretty hard. I knew they were both going to come right back on me if I let them loose up the steep cut, so I put a Dutchman in them (not the best species to do so) and pulled them around, quarted down hill. He made a comment to me about having balls, and we talked about log cutting.
> 
> I told him that I didn't think that was a brave move. I thought falling it up that mess with no place to hardly go was. I guess it's all how you calculate the risk, and what your skill level can do with it. You can grow and learn alot if you can keep your pride in check and your ear plugs out when there is good cutter around.



I've been told God gave us two ears and one mouth so we would listen to twice as much as we speak.


----------



## 056 kid

Burvol said:


> In terms of learning to fall and buck  logs, everyone looks at it in a different light. I want to be as good or better than the guys in my family that came before me, as I love my Dad and what he has done with his carreer. He saw potential in me and knows I love the work. I respect what he did for me in helping me grow, therefore anything short of all that I have is complete dishonorment in my opinion.
> 
> What makes other cutters tick is their business, but I feel that if your not into trying to grow into a good log cutter and work on your game every week you should not attempt it. I am not claiming to be the cutter to end all log cutters, but I have my heart and life invested into it now and I know how it feels to crawl out of bed and do it all over again. _There has to be some comitment there_. There are always going to be naysayers, has beens, wash-ups and hacks who will critize the one questionable thing you did instead of walking your whole strip or an entire unit. Falling timber is a body of work, not a few sticks here and there around a landing.
> 
> When I met Bushler last fall, he was kind enough to give me a couple weeks of cutting and a place to stay. He was shovel logging cable ground out of Gold Beach. I had strip all cut except two wolfy, hammer azz Hemlocks on a wierd bench on a steep, steep face. Tan Oak cut and shotgunned friggin' every where. They both leaned up the hill pretty hard. I knew they were both going to come right back on me if I let them loose up the steep cut, so I put a Dutchman in them (not the best species to do so) and pulled them around, quarted down hill. He made a comment to me about having balls, and we talked about log cutting.
> 
> I told him that I didn't think that was a brave move. I thought falling it up that mess with no place to hardly go was. I guess it's all how you calculate the risk, and what your skill level can do with it. You can grow and learn alot if you can keep your pride in check and your ear plugs out when there is good cutter around.





Great post! the comitment deffinently shows at 4:15 AM when you get out of bed & can barely lace up your boots.

Cranking a sharp saw & facing up the first stick always woke me right up though!

Why didnt you put the jacks to thoes hemlocks?

Now that question is just me wondering, nothing more.

Btw, you are lucky to have a timber faller for a Dad.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Did you just agree with me? LOL
> 
> Hey, how is the weather up your way? I just fed the horse and got drenched just opening the gate. The coast north of Santa Cruz got hit pretty hard by wind and rain. This was the area of the Lockheed fire this past summer. A reverse 911 call went out and SO was going door to door today advising people to evacuate all the low lying areas. My wife had an emergency call back today also.



Rain...lots of it and we're glad to see it. We were still having red flag days a week ago. The snow level is high, 7 or 8 thousand, but for right now the rain is welcome. Give us a week of this, though, and we'll all be complaining about the mud. 

And yeah, I took the day off. Slept in, too. Well, 'til 4 anyway. LOL


----------



## Gologit

hammerlogging said:


> Roger that, you and 2dogs both, I understand your point.
> I still think anyone has to be accountable for themselves, but I'll reconsider your points



Your points were valid, too. A lot of what you say makes good sense. It's hard to generalize or make rules for situations like ours. Every tree is different, every guy is different.`Our methodology might be different but we're all wanting the same thing.


----------



## Jacob J.

MMFaller39 said:


> Well that's good, sorry you had to wait so long for your stuff. I got a set of dogs from him and they made to my house, all the way across the country in 4 days.



In the long run, it doesn't mean a thing. I did consider the fact that I might be an ####### for even bringing it up... 



2dogs said:


> I would expect a rookie to improve by being shown personally by an experienced person. I think in a dangerous situation like a leaner that just reading about how to mitigate the problem on the internet is an invitation to disaster. Some instruction requires that student have the instructor right next to him. Kind of like flying an airplane.



I have to agree. A bullbuck doesn't send a new guy out there by himself. I've seen several companies who have a new guy buck for an older cutter for quite a while before throwing them into the falling part of it.


----------



## Jacob J.

The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?

My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)


----------



## Burvol

Jacob J. said:


> The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?
> 
> My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)



Sorry to hear about your brother Jacob, that is horrible. Logging is a team sport, or is supposed to be anyway. I hope you don't think that I would make a dangerous choice in my cutting, affecting others -as I do care for the safety of others. I'm sure your brother was pissed the whole time he was in that mess, untagling it and wanting to strangle that guy. He obviously was the man on the crew to do it, but it is sad that good guys have to be shreaded meat for not only unsafe, but unproffesional practices- in any major industry.


----------



## 056 kid

Jacob J. said:


> The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?
> 
> My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)





Just another pawn in the game of "lets trash america"

No accountability.

No respect.

No ANYTHING.


Sorr to hear about that.



Wanna answer my jack(?)?


----------



## Greystoke

2dogs said:


> I've been told God gave us two ears and one mouth so we would listen to twice as much as we speak.



That sounds like good advice to live by.


----------



## Greystoke

Burvol said:


> In terms of learning to fall and buck  logs, everyone looks at it in a different light. I want to be as good or better than the guys in my family that came before me, as I love my Dad and what he has done with his carreer. He saw potential in me and knows I love the work. I respect what he did for me in helping me grow, therefore anything short of all that I have is complete dishonorment in my opinion.
> 
> What makes other cutters tick is their business, but I feel that if your not into trying to grow into a good log cutter and work on your game every week you should not attempt it. I am not claiming to be the cutter to end all log cutters, but I have my heart and life invested into it now and I know how it feels to crawl out of bed and do it all over again. _There has to be some comitment there_. There are always going to be naysayers, has beens, wash-ups and hacks who will critize the one questionable thing you did instead of walking your whole strip or an entire unit. Falling timber is a body of work, not a few sticks here and there around a landing.
> 
> When I met Bushler last fall, he was kind enough to give me a couple weeks of cutting and a place to stay. He was shovel logging cable ground out of Gold Beach. I had strip all cut except two wolfy, hammer azz Hemlocks on a wierd bench on a steep, steep face. Tan Oak cut and shotgunned friggin' every where. They both leaned up the hill pretty hard. I knew they were both going to come right back on me if I let them loose up the steep cut, so I put a Dutchman in them (not the best species to do so) and pulled them around, quarted down hill. He made a comment to me about having balls, and we talked about log cutting.
> 
> I told him that I didn't think that was a brave move. I thought falling it up that mess with no place to hardly go was. I guess it's all how you calculate the risk, and what your skill level can do with it. You can grow and learn alot if you can keep your pride in check and your ear plugs out when there is good cutter around.



Good post! You sound like a wise man.


----------



## Greystoke

Jacob J. said:


> The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?
> 
> My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)



Sorry to hear about your Brother. Unfortunately I have noticed in my travels that there are always a few cull fallers around that pull those kinds of stunts. Unfortunately those guys call themselves "Professional Timber Fallers", when they do not even deserve the title, or to be performing their antics. As far as posting on these forums and adding our wisdom...a guy with some decent experience can usually tell who knows what they are talking about. I like to try to share from my experiences, but I also try to really think about what I am posting, always realizing that my words can be translated numerous different ways.


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## fmaglin

Jacob J. said:


> The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?
> 
> My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)



First off, I'm sorry to hear about your brother; however, I believe you are mis-interpreting my previous post. When I commented "That's the way I do it" I made no indication of putting any other person in jeopardy for my actions. Safety is always my main, number one concern, and I am very respectful of the people that I work around. The point I was trying to make is that everyone has their own technique. A way of working that is comfortable to them. Your technique may not be comfortable for me, as mine may not work for you, when in reality both methods will get the job done. When I'm asked why I did something a certain way, that's my reply. That's the way I do it. Not implying to be a smart azz, or reckless.


----------



## Danger Cat

Jacob J. said:


> You misunderstood my post about the "block-out" style Humboldt. I said the block-out style Humboldt came first and then the modified Humboldt (where the bottom cut is angled towards the ground) came along...it was easier to cut the block-out style with crosscuts, and then 'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom. The modified Humboldt was the standard when I went to work in the woods in '90, we just weren't cutting timber big enough to warrant a block-out style cut. Further directional control could be established by leaving a gap where the flat and angled cuts meet on the modern Humboldt...
> 
> Finesse does take time to acquire, regardless of the industry. It takes time to build skills and learn control. If we were to take you out of the woods and put you in a helicopter, you wouldn't be smooth or have much finesse right away. However, if you trained and worked with someone who was experienced and could show you the right moves, you'd get it eventually. Most new cutters are painful to watch...
> 
> The reason why I mentioned the e-bay deal is that I thought it was quite interesting that you were not willing to communicate with me when I was a customer with a problem, but you wanted to communicate when you though I was 'bagging' on your style. That's very telling of how you operate...
> You never mentioned family problems or anything to me (if you had said something, anything- it wouldn't have been an issue.) And it did take two months to get the parts. What you finally told me was that you were busy with work and simply did not have time to ship the parts. I made it known to you immediately and was very easy-going about the situation. You created the acrimony and animosity. I was fixing up saws for log cutter buddies of mine that took a Superior contract down by Gold Beach and needed the extra saws. When I decided you weren't going to send the parts I simply bought new ones. No worries there. I'll gladly send your parts back though.
> 
> Your defensive reactions tell me everything I need to know...




For starters. I would like to say that I am very sorry to here about your brother. No one should have to have that happen to them. Especially because some a-hole did not do their job correctly, or professionally for that matter. There were some guys around here pulling that stuff but, thankfully, the economy has weeded most of them out. Segue way, I was pulled out of a strip and the first thing the next morning the new cutter was being packed out, never to cut logs again. The 'tricky stuff' was already finished but I am thinking maybe somebody did not understand what they were looking at. Back now. My policy is and has been for quite awhile to 'narc' myself off first. It is most critical to try and communicate with the riggin' crew directly about any and all seen potential hazards. < Sometimes they roll their eyes??? If you leave it, say it! < I write this without under tones, only sincerity.

Now to address the personality comments. If you would have said extremely sarcastic, buttface, snide, or anal, then yes. Defensive is just not it, though. The anal portion lends itself to the long and detailed (boring?) responses. The rest are self-evident.

Last time on this, for me anyway. I remember apologzing profusely in a blanket email to 6 or 8 customers for my tardyness with an explaination. Maybe it never showed in your box... And maybe that is why I do not remember anything "easy going" coming from your side. It took about two weeks for me to get the parts "in the mail". When the order actually showed I cannot be positive - behind at work < out of town < dealing with family matters.... For that, I will apologize again. The" it took two months" comment could be courtesy of the U.S.P.S. I had a few packages not arrive at there intended destinations. Then people get pissy (usually in a very short time span) and I send them their $ back + shipping, etc. etc. Somehow though the parts never get returned??? Or the times eBay changes the format and your orders do not show up in the right area, but yet they are still registering as posted by the ebay techs. Furthermore, I will make a special trip to the PO the same day if at all possible. Lastly, I did a little reasearch, as far as I could tell, a negative assessment was not left regarding the transaction in question. Since the oppurtunity to leave negitive feedback was not taken advantage of at the appropriate time, then in my humble opinion, to bring it up here was uncalled for and underhanded.  I expect that kind of behavior from my 8 year old. In summation, I never found a request for a refund in my email or eBay email? I do not have e.s.p., addmitedly. My offer still stands on refunding your money for the eBay parts. The ball's in your court. I am now officially DONE with the eBay tirade.

It is not neccessarily about communicating with anyone in particular. It is about setting the record straight. You make blanket statements that are not necessarily accurate. Like I make 'dumb and foolish' moves, this , without being there to SEE the situation in person. To know how long I have been looking at, scheming, thinking about it, or what is NOT seen that was done to facilitate the maneuver. Just to let you know, it is not me that looks foolish when commentary like that is made. There is a misstatement in the first sentence of this quote where you mention the "'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom ". For clarifcation purposes, a 'snipe' is taken out of the stump and a 'scarf' is taken out of the butt of the tree. Again, these are done for timing issues you need for the individual tree. 

Regarding the modified Humboldt being the standard when you went to work in the 90's, that was a regional 'thing', for your specific locale. There were still fallers using the original around here. Additionally, I did not think the miss understanding was in the reading, but rather, in the writing. It reads backward to me. I first came across the post talking about the modified Humboldt without the modified part being stated. If someone is going to get 'in depth' about cutting technique then they need to be acc-u -rat about it, just my opinion though. I use so called miss matched (gap) undercuts with the modified Humboldt, the farmer, the halfy - 1/2 farmer 1/2 modified Humboldt, and Humboldt (on occasion) style faces all the time. Most notably, when the gap is larger on one side to try and leverage the tree a certain way or compensate for ???. It can bite you in the butt when there are holding wood issues, however. (the last sentence is for any would be tree assassins)

Finesse, in my humble opinion, can be learned over time yes. Taught, no. You might be able to speed the process up a little. Mistakes have to be made first (sometimes repeatedly) by the faller or whoever. Finesse is an internal thing. It is up to the individual, period. I have seen guys that started out being able to tear up an anvil, and with time, can tear it up faster. Although, we might be measuring the same thing, just talking about it from different angles.


____________________________

If you are paying attention... There is still some learning to be had!


----------



## tramp bushler

tarzanstree said:


> For what it's worth; if you are going to cut a tree the way that it is displayed in the pic, and it has any side lean at all, and that is not where you want it to go:monkeywhere it is leaning) You will NOT be able to control it with a little scratch of an undercut like that. This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...I had a friend from Germany that went to a "tree faller" school, who would "blaze" an undercut on a tree like that too, and could never understand the logic of how us Pacific Northwest Timber Fallers did it until he spent some time with the crews that I worked with for Columbia...then he understood, and could see how us poor dumb old boys did it If I were a guy wanting to REALLY learn how to fall timber, I would pay more attention to more guys like hotsaws101's videos (although, most of the techniques that he displays in his videos are fairly advanced and should ONLY be tried if a guy has some good timber falling mechanics and fundamentals), and shy away from all of the "procedural" "by the book" types. Just my two cents! I know..."I would never make it in their world, and they would never make it in mine"



..Their world sucks , so don,t worry about it ... You got to go to alot of college to learn how to do something that wrong and think it is right ...... The proof is in the $$$$$$ ... We fall the most expensive timber in the world and we don,t do alot of bore cuts , and we sure as #$%^ don,t senselessly pound wedges ..... Beating wedges on everything means you don,t know how to fall timber so it goes where it is supposed to go on it,s own , ... I set a wedge in the back cut on alot of trees ,but I don,t pound on the thing to try to horse a tree around very often .....With these stubby bars it is easy to see why the hard wood boys don,t use humbolt faces ........ 
. I believe in a procedural aproach to falling timber , as taught by D. Doug Dent , in his book Professional Timber Falling ..........But then he isn,t a college edjucate stupid @#$%^& !! Sorry about that boys but there are a million ways to do it wrong and beating wedges into a bore cut on a straight tree is just ignorant !!!!! Putting in a good part of the back cut first ,then pounding it up , is doable and I do it sometimes with smaller trees that I want to go hard against the lean ..... But it doesn,t take much more time , and often much less time with better results than conventionally falling the tree,(ie face first ,then back cut ,then wedge .) if there isn't enough room in the back cut for both the bar and the wedge ....


----------



## Jacob J.

tramp bushler said:


> ..Their world sucks , so don,t worry about it ... You got to go to alot of college to learn how to do something that wrong and think it is right ...... The proof is in the $$$$$$ ... We fall the most expensive timber in the world and we don,t do alot of bore cuts , and we sure as #$%^ don,t senselessly pound wedges ..... Beating wedges on everything means you don,t know how to fall timber so it goes where it is supposed to go on it,s own , ... I set a wedge in the back cut on alot of trees ,but I don,t pound on the thing to try to horse a tree around very often .....With these stubby bars it is easy to see why the hard wood boys don,t use humbolt faces ........
> . I believe in a procedural aproach to falling timber , as taught by D. Doug Dent , in his book Professional Timber Falling ..........But then he isn,t a college edjucate stupid @#$%^& !! Sorry about that boys but there are a million ways to do it wrong and beating wedges into a bore cut on a straight tree is just ignorant !!!!! Putting in a good part of the back cut first ,then pounding it up , is doable and I do it sometimes with smaller trees that I want to go hard against the lean ..... But it doesn,t take much more time , and often much less time with better results than conventionally falling the tree,(ie face first ,then back cut ,then wedge .) if there isn't enough room in the back cut for both the bar and the wedge ....



Actually...Doug Dent has a Master's Degree in Business Management is about one of the smartest men I've ever met. He's also a real good egg.


----------



## hammerlogging

Hold on now.

At what point was it determined that he was not photographed while demonstrating a too thin of a face?

Or, if it is as intended, why have a hinge wider than necessary if there is no side lean?

lastly, a question that I can ask with great certainty, is what is the difference between an open face hinge on a butt swollen (eastern hadwood)tree where the hinge length is approx. 80% dbh, and a humbolt hinge on a non tapered tree where the hinge length is 1/3 to 1/2 the deep--- wait, that creates a hinge that is 80% the dbh. ITS THE SAME!!!!

And now, for some math.... If my vertical cut is 6 inches tall, and my horizontal cut is 2 inches deep, but Gary's (just for fun, cause I know you love these discussions, again) humbolt has 4 inches deep vertical cut and a 4 inch deep inclined cut, who has cut more wood? Hmmmmm, 6+2=4+4.

And due to different growth styles, neither have removed merchantable material from the butt log. Wow, different trees, different technique, same results.

You can swing trees with an open face, and no east coast production faller wants to pound wedges any more than you.

Now, if you say well that ripping crap is slower, I suggest asking someone to file for you and try it with a sharp chain.

That box ain't locked, you're free to think outside it of you feel like it.

Jeez, it so simple.


----------



## Burvol

A lot of how deep you face a tree has to do with how much leverage you need... The hinge is the leverage. Weight fore or aft. A sheep's you know what can be used in straight ahead, no gimmick timber that is bar width or less, but bigger trees need a little more finese and attention in my opinion. On bigger timber on steep ground with a 32, I like to cut the face, go over and finish the face on the far side, start cutting up the far wood, and walk the saw around to the high side, when possible. All situations are different, and the wood has to be solid to do some of the tricks. Soft or rotton wood needs a true, fundemantal approach with no games or tricks in my opinion.


----------



## tramp bushler

. Whether Doug Dent went to college or not he has the smarts to know how to fall timber . Or to put it another way , college didn,t make him stupid ....I really like his book and learned alot from it ..... 
Hammer , what are you talking about ????? I know what you said , ,but I don,t see your point ..........That odd looking chicken face the wedge pounder had put in at the start of this thread was useless . At first glance I thot he had just knocked the bark off with an ax , like you would if there were fly rock in the bark ......


----------



## hammerlogging

tramp bushler said:


> Hammer , what are you talking about ????? I know what you said , ,but I don,t see your point ..........That odd looking chicken face the wedge pounder had put in at the start of this thread was useless . At first glance I thot he had just knocked the bark off with an ax , like you would if there were fly rock in the bark ......




I know I know it was a stupid shallow as heck face cut, I just wanted to point out some basic concepts to address the ongoing east coast felling bashing because a lot of this bashing is uninformed, or at least not considering all of the circumstances such as heavier crowns, harder (slower cutting) wood, butt swell, elements that lead to our widely adopted and HIGHLY recommended technique. Call any mill in Appalachia thats ever had a helicopter with west coast fallers log a unit and ask them how their fallers did. Or, ask my boss why we cut our own wood when we sub the logging to the birds. We cut the way we do for a damn good reason. Its not you, its the greater conversation I am addressing.


----------



## 056 kid

hammerlogging said:


> I know I know it was a stupid shallow as heck face cut, I just wanted to point out some basic concepts to address the ongoing east coast felling bashing because a lot of this bashing is uninformed, or at least not considering all of the circumstances such as heavier crowns, harder (slower cutting) wood, butt swell, elements that lead to our widely adopted and HIGHLY recommended technique. Call any mill in Appalachia thats ever had a helicopter with west coast fallers log a unit and ask them how their fallers did. Or, ask my boss why we cut our own wood when we sub the logging to the birds. We cut the way we do for a damn good reason. Its not you, its the greater conversation I am addressing.



Now,
I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.

Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.) 
The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...

And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.

Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..


----------



## forestryworks

056 kid said:


> *the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.*



what are you gettin' at?


----------



## hammerlogging

056 kid said:


> Now,
> I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.
> 
> Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.)
> The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...
> 
> And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
> I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.
> 
> Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..



I hear ya dude I know what you're sayin, just pointing out some concepts to some naysayers. 

I don't think you can get your hinge down to 1/2" to 3/4" max thickness backcutting though, without having to be under a falling tree and too little time for escape, except for poplars. Just depends. Yes, you can back cut lots of them, and you can bore a humbolt too, if desired.

Even today, i was cutting another SMZ (with hella fine timber too) and had to drop a couple clear across the steep drain and did the block face with the little slope (some sort of modified humbolt) and had extraordinary results not breaking logs by getting the butt to hit the ground first. Poplars. 

Not a big deal, and I'm sure you understand both sides of the conversation.


----------



## 056 kid

Fo sho..


----------



## 056 kid

forestryworks said:


> what are you gettin' at?



Im gettin at when you dont need to control a tree more than (x) degrees, dont waste time on some (x)+ 30 degree face...

Every tree that falls starts out completely controlled, as gravity takes over, the control lessens until near the end of the fall, the tree is controlling itself completely just before smacking the ground. So if a 1/3 deep 25 degree face can produce the same results as a 1/8 deep 85 degree face, what is the advantage of the latter setup? I have not run stop watch tests, but I would bet 50 dollars that the deeper narrower face will take less time to cut up(to the deck) than the shallow wide face.Because cutting straight across the grain produces faster cuts than ripping down the log.
And there is less wood to cut behind the deeper face(2/3) than the shallow face (7/8). less when holding wood is accounted for.

Som may argue that you are cutting the same no matter what..




but then you get a tree that has considerable side lean and everything changes...


----------



## hammerlogging

056 kid said:


> Im gettin at when you dont need to control a tree more than (x) degrees, dont waste time on some (x)+ 30 degree face...
> 
> Every tree that falls starts out completely controlled, as gravity takes over, the control lessens until near the end of the fall, the tree is controlling itself completely just before smacking the ground. So if a 1/3 deep 25 degree face can produce the same results as a 1/8 deep 85 degree face, what is the advantage of the latter setup? I have not run stop watch tests, but I would bet 50 dollars that the deeper narrower face will take less time to cut up(to the deck) than the shallow wide face.Because cutting straight across the grain produces faster cuts than ripping down the log.
> And there is less wood to cut behind the deeper face(2/3) than the shallow face (7/8). less when holding wood is accounted for.
> 
> Som may argue that you are cutting the same no matter what..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but then you get a tree that has considerable side lean and everything changes...



Roger that. In fact, GOL emphasizes the open face so that the tree stays on the hinge longer but in fact when you're threading the needle I want it to pop off the hinge early so that it can "fold" through the canopy- let the trunk turn as lateral limbs brush through adjacent trees. If your hinge is too thick you'll slab the face of the butt log BAD for $. So face it how you want, fine, but you better still bore that money wood. Open face, better have a super thin hinge. Back cut, trees falling while your finishing the hinge increasing the hazard cause you're still under there cutting finishing the hinge. Bore cut any and all $ trees. (hardwood)

Its a lot easier to see your bore to make a perfect hinge on an open face though.

And, back to what I was originally saying, its not whats right or wrong, its different, for a purpose. Anthropocentric is the word I think, for what I'm suggesting is avoided.

I guess I'm talking about more than one subject here, faces and bores, and #### it anyhow. Have a good evening all.


----------



## bullbuck

056 kid said:


> Now,
> I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.
> 
> Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.)
> The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...
> 
> And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
> I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.
> 
> Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..



i agree "no wedges"but have you ever skidded your own strip 056?not trying to start a battle,just wondered how much you know about removal?


----------



## clearance

056 kid said:


> I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools



What?


----------



## 056 kid

bullbuck said:


> i agree "no wedges"but have you ever skidded your own strip 056?not trying to start a battle,just wondered how much you know about removal?



Yep.

For a while i cut, hooked, and drug to a "safe place" then the other dude would take it on..


If the skidder cant push pr pull it over, and I cant push it over with a tree, there are plenty of wedges in the skidder.

Good hickory saplings make good wedges & good hammers if things get hairy...


----------



## bullbuck

056 kid said:


> Yep.
> 
> For a while i cut, hooked, and drug to a "safe place" then the other dude would take it on..
> 
> 
> If the skidder cant push pr pull it over, and I cant push it over with a tree, there are plenty of wedges in the skidder.
> 
> Good hickory saplings make good wedges & good hammers if things get hairy...


understood


----------



## tramp bushler

A wedge in each back pocket can hardly be considered burdensome ....You wouldn,t get away with that up here cutting in the wind ..


----------



## 056 kid

tramp bushler said:


> A wedge in each back pocket can hardly be considered burdensome ....You wouldn,t get away with that up here cutting in the wind ..



I bet!
cutting in the wind isent very fun
like, cut cut, wait wait wait, cut cut wait. . .

i have tried the back pocket thing and it dosent bother me, but they are usually not there when I reach for them, the right back pocket is for the saw wrench any way.


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## redprospector

Going to work without wedges (& an ax), would be like going to work with no sox.

Andy


----------



## tramp bushler

Since ya gotta have a tape , if nothing else than cause you need your tape nail to clean the bar groove and oiler hole when you change chains , and you need 2 wedges , or 3 . Me I use a 28 oz. Vaughn Riggin Ax for my fallers ax . I pack it in a hammer loop , or an upside down ax holder . And I usually pack a mountain stove fuel bottle w/ saw gas and a little one with bar oil ... That little trick usually makes me about 3 bushel by the end of the day ..... Any way , I,ve done plenty of the , (aint got nothin but my saw ) thing , Aint I fast .... But when you are getting your logs bucked clean off , you better be fast to run and get your wedges , and ax , and spare bar and chain , oh ya then your out of gas , better run and get that ... RUN RUN RUN .. While your runnin , I,m pullin chips and puttin numbers on my hat .......... If you don,t get pinched in a buck once in a while , you arn,t buckin your logs clean ..............No doubt Humptulips would want to have a talk with you with a club if he had to log your strip !!!!. 
. One of the light weight nylon wedge pouches with a 12" and a 10 " wedge , on a leather belt , or your chaps belt . Or a light weight nylon belt will solve lots of trouble , and make for a smoother , funner day . with less foot raceing for the dollar involved ........... I,ve had plenty of bullbucks who would tramp a guy on the spot the 2nd time they caught a guy goin to the crummy for his spare bar , ect ect. Also a wedge pouch is good for packin your spare chain .. . Can,t be runnin a dull saw , easy to get in the dirt gettin your bucks clean off ........................


----------



## 056 kid

What I take out of the truck in the morning;

Lid, saw, chaps for good measure, wrench, bar groove cleaner/raker guage, flat & round files, carb screwdriver 1 gallon gas, 1 gallon oil.

the gas wrench, & flat head stay near me all day, the rest stays on the skidder which I get to see all the time.


If I where to find me a job out here, a little sack to put all that stuff would be imparitave to keeping things organized. Its gust a matter of where you work. Trees out East on average have enough lean that you really dont need to pack wedges, plus drivinig trees is lots more fun!


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## Metals406

tramp bushler said:


> Since ya gotta have a tape , if nothing else than cause you need your tape nail to clean the bar groove and oiler hole when you change chains , and you need 2 wedges , or 3 . Me I use a 28 oz. Vaughn Riggin Ax for my fallers ax . I pack it in a hammer loop , or an upside down ax holder . And I usually pack a mountain stove fuel bottle w/ saw gas and a little one with bar oil ... That little trick usually makes me about 3 bushel by the end of the day ..... Any way , I,ve done plenty of the , (aint got nothin but my saw ) thing , Aint I fast .... But when you are getting your logs bucked clean off , you better be fast to run and get your wedges , and ax , and spare bar and chain , oh ya then your out of gas , better run and get that ... RUN RUN RUN .. While your runnin , I,m pullin chips and puttin numbers on my hat .......... If you don,t get pinched in a buck once in a while , you arn,t buckin your logs clean ..............No doubt Humptulips would want to have a talk with you with a club if he had to log your strip !!!!.
> . One of the light weight nylon wedge pouches with a 12" and a 10 " wedge , on a leather belt , or your chaps belt . Or a light weight nylon belt will solve lots of trouble , and make for a smoother , funner day . with less foot raceing for the dollar involved ........... I,ve had plenty of bullbucks who would tramp a guy on the spot the 2nd time they caught a guy goin to the crummy for his spare bar , ect ect. Also a wedge pouch is good for packin your spare chain .. . Can,t be runnin a dull saw , easy to get in the dirt gettin your bucks clean off ........................



I'd like to hear more about the above setup. . . Got any pics, etc??


----------



## hammerlogging

056 kid said:


> Yep.
> 
> For a while i cut, hooked, and drug to a "safe place" then the other dude would take it on..
> 
> 
> If the skidder cant push pr pull it over, and I cant push it over with a tree, there are plenty of wedges in the skidder.
> 
> Good hickory saplings make good wedges & good hammers if things get hairy...



I remember the days, thats called hot logging. What you cut is skidded immediately, decked, and probably even hauled to the mill. What I cut is logged anywhere from about 2 days to 12 days after its cut-- we even have a new trick to fall ahead when the sap is rising and not have butt split problems.

We cold cut. There is no equipment to carry your stuff, pull over a hanger, or to hook to your log if you get hung. We are cutting strips often over 300' wide and 300' deep. Keeping trees in lay is cleaner, better for logging, nice and systematic, and butts aren't nearly as covered up, logs not all crossed up. You gotta have axe and wedges on our setup. When we try a new faller generally they ask "what if you get hung?" cause nobody else in the east cold falls timber away from equipment. Well, worst case radio another faller, they're going to be less than 1/4 mile away, ideally, take care of it yourself. Rarely do we find a faller we keep.

I've never had much luck getting a wedge to pound with a club or lifting a tree with a home made wedge. right now we have 3 fallers, I carry 3 12" wedges and a 4 pound axe, another may carry as small as a 2 10" and a 3lb axe, ok if it does the trick, I like my system and don't find it trouble- and I can pretty well take care of anything that sits back on me. I think the 12" drive far better- less taper.

I LOVE cutting away from equipment. Pace yourself, and no distractions. SLAM SLAM SLAM.


----------



## hammerlogging

1 1/2 gal. mix and bar oil in a tandem container (whats it called?). I attach one of my water bottles to my can, this floats around the strip with me.

In backpack: (left at "base camp")
1-2 gal. water
raincoat, spare sharpened chain, lunch, small coffee thermos, little bit of TP, salt packs (sometimes summer cramps you up) , spare Oregon tip, punch, star wrench, little kitchen knife (for cleaning bar rails), raker gauge, little rag, carb screwdriver. maybe a sweater and a cap for lunch time if its cool. Tobaccy and a lighter, sin sin sin. 

Chest radio pack w/ radio 

Tool belt: Leather belt w/ suspenders, leather wedge pouch, 3 12' wedges, double bevel flat file, saw wrench, Madsens axe scabbard and 4 lb axe, usually a 50' spencer tape.

Cutting pants, calks, shirts, gloves, and a dorky face screen helmet (like it)

Works for me. What about anyone else?


----------



## RandyMac

Any Pro who isn't prepared for every situation, should back sent back to the rigging. God made back pantspockets to put wedges in, He also made jacks, never leave home without one.
As for the history of the Humboldt cut, I'm doing some local research, I'll report back soon.


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## 056 kid

the only ones I like are the red top 12 inchers. 

cant get any lift from the short ones, they just come back at ya.


Bout the only time i will carry a wedge is in flat stands, or small stands of poplar, they are really bout the only tree that will grow without any sort of crown lean, say there are 4 trees in a 30 spare foot area, usually all are destined for a different direction. Wedges help then but still can be avoided with a good driver tree.

I had never herd the term "hot logging" but I like it, seems fitting due to how hot you can become from the up & down & up & down & up & down... even on the coldest days!


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## redprospector

Metals406 said:


> I'd like to hear more about the above setup. . . Got any pics, etc??



Not sure how trampbusheler's set up is, but I used to carry 2 of the mix oil bottles (for 5 gal. of gas). One with bar oil, the other with gas mix. I made a leather pouch that they fit snug in with a belt loop. I could cut till I ran outa gas, dump them in the saw and cut my way back towards my gas jugs. The other fallers would just walk back the their jugs. It does gain you quite a bit in a days time.

Andy


----------



## Gologit

redprospector said:


> Not sure how trampbusheler's set up is, but I used to carry 2 of the mix oil bottles (for 5 gal. of gas). One with bar oil, the other with gas mix. I made a leather pouch that they fit snug in with a belt loop. I could cut till I ran outa gas, dump them in the saw and cut my way back towards my gas jugs. The other fallers would just walk back the their jugs. It does gain you quite a bit in a days time.
> 
> Andy



Well said. A little juice bottle with mix in it works pretty good, too. Same for bar oil. If you're busheling, or even if you're day-waging for a picky side rod, taking time to hike out for stuff you should have with you is just a waste of everybody's time.


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## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> 1 1/2 gal. mix and bar oil in a tandem container (whats it called?). I attach one of my water bottles to my can, this floats around the strip with me.
> 
> In backpack: (left at "base camp")
> 1-2 gal. water
> raincoat, spare sharpened chain, lunch, small coffee thermos, little bit of TP, salt packs (sometimes summer cramps you up) , spare Oregon tip, punch, star wrench, little kitchen knife (for cleaning bar rails), raker gauge, little rag, carb screwdriver. maybe a sweater and a cap for lunch time if its cool. Tobaccy and a lighter, sin sin sin.
> 
> Chest radio pack w/ radio
> 
> Tool belt: Leather belt w/ suspenders, leather wedge pouch, 3 12' wedges, double bevel flat file, saw wrench, Madsens axe scabbard and 4 lb axe, usually a 50' spencer tape.
> 
> Cutting pants, calks, shirts, gloves, and a dorky face screen helmet (like it)
> 
> Works for me. What about anyone else?


I usually carry 1 gal of mix, 1 gal of bar oil, that goes wherever I go. 

In my pickup: drinking water, my lunch, a first aid kit, roll of toilet paper, a complete tool kit, a cordless impact driver, a six pack of mix oil, a spare gallon of bar oil, a 2 gallon can of 93 octane gas, rain gear, some extra gloves, and various pieces of clothing should the weather take a change. 

In my homemade wooden tool carrier:a spare chain, a carb adjusting screwdriver, a small adjustable wrench, a scrench, a swiss army knife I use to clean the bar groove, a roll of electrical tape, a can of insect repellent, Tecnu in case I come in contact with poison ivy,various files and handles, a raker gauge, file gauge, lumber marking crayons, and a red felt marker to mark and quickly identify which cutter I started to file (makes identifying it easier). 

Worn on me: my old Mac T hard hat, ear plugs, safety glasses, gloves, my Nextel direct connect phone, my spenders, chaps, Danner boots, and a leather belt with my axe, and my tool pouch. 

In my tool pouch: a K&H 10" triple taper wedge, 2 -8" double taper wedges, 1- 5-1/2" double taper wedge, a scrench, and my 50' Spencer tape.


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## Taxmantoo

fmaglin said:


> I usually carry 1 gal of mix, 1 gal of bar oil, that goes wherever I go.
> 
> In my pickup: drinking water, my lunch, a first aid kit,



What good does the first aid kit do in your truck?
Could you at least stuff a bandage into your hat?


----------



## fmaglin

taxmantoo said:


> What good does the first aid kit do in your truck?
> Could you at least stuff a bandage into your hat?


Actually, I do keep several bandages in my wallet. The first aid kit in my truck has all the bigger gauze and blood stoppers.


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## tramp bushler

hammerlogging said:


> 1 1/2 gal. mix and bar oil in a tandem container (whats it called?). I attach one of my water bottles to my can, this floats around the strip with me.
> 
> In backpack: (left at "base camp")
> 1-2 gal. water
> raincoat, spare sharpened chain, lunch, small coffee thermos, little bit of TP, salt packs (sometimes summer cramps you up) , spare Oregon tip, punch, star wrench, little kitchen knife (for cleaning bar rails), raker gauge, little rag, carb screwdriver. maybe a sweater and a cap for lunch time if its cool. Tobaccy and a lighter, sin sin sin.
> 
> Chest radio pack w/ radio
> 
> Tool belt: Leather belt w/ suspenders, leather wedge pouch, 3 12' wedges, double bevel flat file, saw wrench, Madsens axe scabbard and 4 lb axe, usually a 50' spencer tape.
> 
> Cutting pants, calks, shirts, gloves, and a dorky face screen helmet (like it)
> 
> Works for me. What about anyone else?



Similar . for wedges I,ve been packin the same 15" bannana for 6 of 7 years . It's for tappin . 1 12" and one 10" . The 10" gets 75% of the use . Then the 12 . and IF I have to use the bannana its because there are no other options . I usually have 2 spare wedges in my pack ..... 3 sharp chains in my pack , carefully wrapped up in chain rags . Spare spencer tape in the pack , one on my belt . I use a weight lifting belt that I trimmed down to about 3" wide . I put a couple brass halyard clips on the belt and snap the cap for the gas and oil bottles to them ... I keep a pistol on the hip belt of my pack . I keep a spare clutch bearing , E clip and washer and a spare drive sprocket .. spare spark plug , and any more a spare key back with a crayon and pencil on it in my pack .. had a D ring come off my suspenders and lost my crayon once and caught hell from the bull buck over it ... of course a spare bar . and If I,m in real big timber a long handled 5 lb rafting ax ....... for the run of my cuttin , if I need to pound over a tree , I cut a mallet . find a sapling with a good handle size limb where the trunk of the sapling is 5 or 6 " dia. . cut about a 10" long section and cut the limb 2 or 3 feet long ,and there ya go . you have a mallet that will usually lift your tree ....... for most things my Plumb or Vaughn Rig Builders ax is ideal ....... For one thing , you arn,t supposed to be beating wedges .. your sposed to be fallin timber ... that ideally entails a sharp power saw and a sharp mind ........................My ( hatchet's ) main job is getting my tip out when I get hung limbing . usually in the afternoon . but I,ve got so used to it , it is part of how I fall timber ... I saw my faces out , instead of beat them out .. I try not to use my dogs to knock faces out also .......... I don,t know if I have any pics of my wedge belt ....... I prefer to use gallon jugs for gas and oil jugs .. With the 044 / 372 / I never burned over 1 1/2 gallon of fuel in a day ....... With the 046 / 460 1 1/2 gal , maybe 1 3/4 on a good day ...... 064 and 288 2 gallons a day . 394 , 056 or 066 / 660 2 1/2 gal a day . 3120 , 3 gallons a day , and 1 1/2 gal . of oil ......Nuff to kill a guy off ........ 1 water bottle with water , 1 with Cytomax . and 1 with Whey Protein ..... gettin tired of typing ....


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## tramp bushler

*Canadian Tree Spacers*



redprospector said:


> Not sure how trampbusheler's set up is, but I used to carry 2 of the mix oil bottles (for 5 gal. of gas). One with bar oil, the other with gas mix. I made a leather pouch that they fit snug in with a belt loop. I could cut till I ran outa gas, dump them in the saw and cut my way back towards my gas jugs. The other fallers would just walk back the their jugs. It does gain you quite a bit in a days time.
> 
> Andy



I got the idea from when I was Pre Commercial Tree thinning . Chevron gallon jugs were the best . Then I met some Professional Pre Commercial tree thinners and they had these Canadian tree spacer ( what the Canadians aparrantly call tree thinning ) Fuel and oil carrying systems . It made sense , so I started using them . ..... By carrying a quart and a pint when I,m bushlin , I don,t have to baby sit the tank on my saw all the time .. Cut till I run out then do bunkers and cut back to my camp where my stuff is , or if I have a wide strip , my next set of jugs ..


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## tramp bushler

taxmantoo said:


> What good does the first aid kit do in your truck?
> Could you at least stuff a bandage into your hat?



Maternity Kotex in the suspension of my tin hat sealed inside 2 zip lok baggies . And , most importand , a roll of BLACK TAPE . preferably 3M brand . It'll fix almost anything ..I keep it in a pants or shirt pocket .....


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## coastalfaller

I typically pack a 2 gallon jug of gas & 1 gallon of oil. 

On my wedge belt I pack a saw wrench attached to the belt with a length of starter cord, 2 10" wedges & 1 12", and a pouch for my radio, plus the fire out powder in fire season. 

On my suspenders are I have a small first aid kit ( I prefer it there rather than in my hard hat. If a guy gets wacked hopefully your suspenders are still attached! Sometimes the hard hat goes flying and you may not be able to reach it.) The mike for my radio (attached high up so it's close to my mouth, again in case I'm pinned or unable to reach it). 

On my face I'll typically have a few sets of jugs placed strategically along the face for fuelling up, a tool cache with a spare tape, spare bar, 2-3 spare wedges, sparkplug, the ubiquitous black tape, allen keys, spare boot lace, various Husky screws, carb screwdriver, and various other goodies accumlated over the years. My pack also sits there with my water, sometimes with gatorade, my lunch, rain gear and a woolie sweater. My tools stay on the face at the end of the day so my pack is as light as possible, especially working on the low side of the road!

On the road or at the pad is a spare saw.


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## 056 kid

Yall tote ALOT of stuff around!!!!


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## redprospector

056 kid said:


> Yall tote ALOT of stuff around!!!!



That's because we're trying to get ALOT done without wasting ALOT of time going back to the truck.

Andy


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## tramp bushler

redprospector said:


> That's because we're trying to get ALOT done without wasting ALOT of time going back to the truck.
> 
> Andy


 .

.

. I may make that statement my signature line ....... 056 , heres something to think about , if we all didn,t need it ,we wouldn,t be packin it around for fun ... I,ve seen guys tramped for stump wrenchin ,for not having a spare saw when they needed it , tho if they were a good cutter the bull buck would let them slide as long as they were ready to go in the morning ..... I won,t change a tip in the brush , just swap bars , no biggy,, fix it @ the saw shop after supper when I go to grind my chains ......
If my strip is big , I keep a spare saw , fueled up on my strip ..... Some cutting situations don,t require me to wear my fuel/oil bottles , so just use my jugs or a piggy back .. Thats what the gas/oil combo plastic jugs are called ...... In the variable timber we have in Southeast I keep 2 different size saws around ... If I,m in small junk or poles I,ll use the 372 or 460 , W/ 30" bar but keep the 90cc plus saw out of the way or by the big stuff . sometimes all set up with the long bar on it ..... I,ll do the swampin out with the regular saw , and spring board cuts , then use the Fallin saw to put it on the ground and take the butt cut off ..........


----------



## forestryworks

056 kid said:


> Yall tote ALOT of stuff around!!!!



it's all about being prepared.


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## Meadow Beaver

What saw do you use fir the biggins?


----------



## tramp bushler

MMFaller39 said:


> What saw do you use fir the biggins?



.
.Historically , 056 Mag 2 , 288 Husky . 2100 and 2101 Huskies ... A real good saw !!!!! , 394 Huskies , and the Best big saws I,ve ever run 3120 Huskies .....
.
.While the small saw was a 044 , 266 , 272 .or sometimes an 064 ... I,ve even had the 288 w/32" bar as my main saw and the 394 w/ 36" for the bigger stuff and had a 42" bar & chain to put on in the crummy behind the back seat ...


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## coastalfaller

redprospector said:


> That's because we're trying to get ALOT done without wasting ALOT of time going back to the truck.
> 
> Andy


----------



## coastalfaller

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> . I may make that statement my signature line ....... 056 , heres something to think about , if we all didn,t need it ,we wouldn,t be packin it around for fun ... I,ve seen guys tramped for stump wrenchin ,for not having a spare saw when they needed it , tho if they were a good cutter the bull buck would let them slide as long as they were ready to go in the morning ..... I won,t change a tip in the brush , just swap bars , no biggy,, fix it @ the saw shop after supper when I go to grind my chains ......
> If my strip is big , I keep a spare saw , fueled up on my strip ..... Some cutting situations don,t require me to wear my fuel/oil bottles , so just use my jugs or a piggy back .. Thats what the gas/oil combo plastic jugs are called ...... In the variable timber we have in Southeast I keep 2 different size saws around ... If I,m in small junk or poles I,ll use the 372 or 460 , W/ 30" bar but keep the 90cc plus saw out of the way or by the big stuff . sometimes all set up with the long bar on it ..... I,ll do the swampin out with the regular saw , and spring board cuts , then use the Fallin saw to put it on the ground and take the butt cut off ..........


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## tramp bushler

My wedge belt w/out fuel bottles





.
. and my fallers pack



..
.. I can stull a fallin saw powerhead into this pack and it doesn,t gouge a hole in my back packin in or out and it,s short enough I can walk under limbs and it doesn,t get hung up ...


----------



## 056 kid

I completely understand the reason for packing the stuff around.

Same for needing it, it is more time affective for me just to carry a saw wrench an saw liqiuds attached to a string. the wrench is in the pocket and the gas stays a few trees away.

Likei stated previously if I was out there like TB and the others, would be self contained & self sufficent.

But as far as waisting time, I dont think i would have kept a job if I was waisting too much time.


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## Meadow Beaver

tramp bushler said:


> .
> .Historically , 056 Mag 2 , 288 Husky . 2100 and 2101 Huskies ... A real good saw !!!!! , 394 Huskies , and the Best big saws I,ve ever run 3120 Huskies .....
> .
> .While the small saw was a 044 , 266 , 272 .or sometimes an 064 ... I,ve even had the 288 w/32" bar as my main saw and the 394 w/ 36" for the bigger stuff and had a 42" bar & chain to put on in the crummy behind the back seat ...



I wish I had a good excuse to buy a 3120. We don't even pack gas or bar oil, we just wait for the skidder to come back and refuel.


----------



## tramp bushler

I,m pretty hard core about keeping the operators in their place , which means I am self contained .... It leads to cutters making more money .....This 18 bucks and hour don,t cut it .. A dollar a minute is barley enough ... having a skidder fall your trees for you puts you 1 step from being unnecessary in the woods .......... Unless you just want to be an equipment operator , but thats not much of a life ,............................. ,........... Fallers are smarter than anyone else 
Fallers are tougher than anyone else 
Fallers work harder than anyone else 
Fallers make more money than anyone else 
Fallers in Southeast, Alaska do the most dangerous job in the free world ...
I,m a Timber Faller from Southeast Alaska !!


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## tramp bushler

No disrespect ment to any brush apes or operators who arn,t fallers . But when the cuttin crew does their job right , it makes life better for everyone ... If I was running a skidder and someone wanted me to push their trees over .:censored::spam::censored::censored::censored:


----------



## redprospector

MMFaller39 said:


> I wish I had a good excuse to buy a 3120. We don't even pack gas or bar oil, we just wait for the skidder to come back and refuel.



When you're looking for an excuse, any excuse will do.  Just buy one.

A man could get lazy with someone packing his stuff for him. 


Andy


----------



## redprospector

tramp bushler said:


> I,m pretty hard core about keeping the operators in their place , which means I am self contained .... It leads to cutters making more money .....This 18 bucks and hour don,t cut it .. A dollar a minute is barley enough ... having a skidder fall your trees for you puts you 1 step from being unnecessary in the woods .......... Unless you just want to be an equipment operator , but thats not much of a life ,............................. ,........... Fallers are smarter than anyone else
> Fallers are tougher than anyone else
> Fallers work harder than anyone else
> Fallers make more money than anyone else
> Fallers in Southeast, Alaska do the most dangerous job in the free world ...
> I,m a Timber Faller from Southeast Alaska !!



I hate working by the hour (which is what I'm doing now). I'd much rather get paid for what I get done.

Andy


----------



## fmaglin

MMFaller39 said:


> I wish I had a good excuse to buy a 3120. We don't even pack gas or bar oil, we just wait for the skidder to come back and refuel.


I wish I had the money to buy a 3120. If I had the cash I'm sure I could find a good excuse.


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## coastalfaller

redprospector said:


> I hate working by the hour (which is what I'm doing now). I'd much rather get paid for what I get done.
> 
> Andy



Absolutely, it's also good job satisfaction to be able to look back at the end of the day and see what you've accomplished (and earned your money!). Much more so than the stack of papers you've piled in your outbox!


----------



## bullbuck

redprospector said:


> I hate working by the hour (which is what I'm doing now). I'd much rather get paid for what I get done.
> 
> Andy


i dont neccesarily agree andy,you put me on by the piece on a d6c,and i wont let off the fuel for nothing! upshifting the whole way down the hill...stumps?what stumps?trust me i can hang on tighter than that machine can hold together!but you running your own machines i bet you have found a good balance,as i did by the hour working for george...one thing i learned for sure is that a machine that continues to move continues to make money


----------



## MR4WD

tramp bushler said:


> Fallers are smarter than anyone else
> Fallers are tougher than anyone else
> Fallers work harder than anyone else
> Fallers make more money than anyone else
> Fallers in Southeast, Alaska do the most dangerous job in the free world ...
> I,m a Timber Faller from Southeast Alaska !!



I'd beg to differ. i'm not trying to start a fight, but c'mon. Really?


----------



## redprospector

bullbuck said:


> i dont neccesarily agree andy,you put me on by the piece on a d6c,and i wont let off the fuel for nothing! upshifting the whole way down the hill...stumps?what stumps?trust me i can hang on tighter than that machine can hold together!but you running your own machines i bet you have found a good balance,as i did by the hour working for george...one thing i learned for sure is that a machine that continues to move continues to make money



Hahaha. Chris, that's what I call the bull in the china closet syndrome. 
A guy that tears :censored: up, dosen't usually have a job long, and word spreads pretty quick. A good piece worker knows, as you have learned, that a machine that continues to move, continues to make money........for everyone.

Andy


----------



## Danger Cat

*3120 Or Bust!*



MMFaller39 said:


> I wish I had a good excuse to buy a 3120. We don't even pack gas or bar oil, we just wait for the skidder to come back and refuel.



I agree with the any excuse commentary... 
I have a new 60" Cannon bar with your name on when the time comes. Also, if you want it to really run, there are a few tricks that, for a small fee of course, can be done to make it an animal.


----------



## Metals406

Danger Cat said:


> I agree with the any excuse commentary...
> I have a new 60" Cannon bar with your name on when the time comes. Also, if you want it to really run, there are a few tricks that, for a small fee of course, can be done to make it an animal.



More YouTube videos of you falling timber. . . Please and thank you.


----------



## tramp bushler

MR4WD said:


> I'd beg to differ. i'm not trying to start a fight, but c'mon. Really?


. 

You ever cut in Southeast ????? How many guys you work with died working , or got busted up for life ???????? When you are cutting all the time so you can see salt water , it really increases the challenges ..... There are some nice steep places in BC but I figure you guys can speak for your selves ... Do you guys bushel ????????????????


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Danger Cat said:


> I agree with the any excuse commentary...
> I have a new 60" Cannon bar with your name on when the time comes. Also, if you want it to really run, there are a few tricks that, for a small fee of course, can be done to make it an animal.



Jack when I do get one you'd have to make a vid to go along with your work.


----------



## RPM

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> You ever cut in Southeast ????? How many guys you work with died working , or got busted up for life ???????? When you are cutting all the time so you can see salt water , it really increases the challenges ..... There are some nice steep places in BC but I figure you guys can speak for your selves ... Do you guys bushel ????????????????



Bushel?? I'm guessing piece work / by the volume / ton whatever measure you use in the US.

Not around here...our fallers are paid by the hour and / or day rates. Our hand fallers are doing the nasty steep stuff around here (cable or heli work), everything else is done with feller bunchers. There are expectations with regards to production numbers but I also expect that it will all be quality work. Nobody gets paid if the wood doesn't go on the truck.

Anyone can slam wood down and go for the high production numbers if thats how they get paid...in my experience thats how people usually get hurt. 

As far as fatalities or maimings ... none for several years thankfully. I don't expect people who work for us to go out and get themsleves hurt or killed.

Some of the heli fallers on the BC cost may still get paid by volume scale - someone will correct me but I think it mostly day rate with production targets.

And I think MR4WD's point is that there are other big brass ball type jobs out there .... I think he swings off high voltage transmission towers for a living....I think dropping trees is safer IMHO.


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## tramp bushler

Not according to OSHA ...... We are number one by a good margin , next in line is Bering Sea crabbing ........Lots of things more dangerous than working high steel ...... Not that I,m bragging about cheating death . Thank God I,m still alive and upright .... My point is , there is a reason we get paid well . And to earn the pay you have to do the work without bustin up the timber .... But in fact , very few men can put alot of wood on the ground on a consistent basis ... To say " anyone " can is just being un knowing !..... How much a day do the fallers working for you make ........How many hours a day do they work ????


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## MR4WD

tramp bushler said:


> Not according to OSHA ...... We are number one by a good margin , next in line is Bering Sea crabbing ........Lots of things more dangerous than working high steel ...... Not that I,m bragging about cheating death . Thank God I,m still alive and upright .... My point is , there is a reason we get paid well . And to earn the pay you have to do the work without bustin up the timber .... But in fact , very few men can put alot of wood on the ground on a consistent basis ... To say " anyone " can is just being un knowing !..... How much a day do the fallers working for you make ........How many hours a day do they work ????



I don't beleive your job is more dangerous than mine. There is no way it could be. The fact more people die logging, is because there isn't the money in it for safety. The reason Canadians wear more safety crap is because we have a government run health care set up. If it wasn't for the government paying for the hospital, then they wouldn't spend money on mandating safety.

I don't work high steel, I work high steel with helicopters energized at 500,000 volts. I did a job on the north BC coast this year with 7 helicopters where I lived at 200' above sea level but worked at 6500'. I climbed spruce over 10' wide just to top them for powerline clearance... Felled a few with an 880 and a 42" bar. 

Got trapped once in the clouds on a what's called a catenary, the only one in the world. The only way to get on the catenary is a helicopter. I had to repel 650' to the ground, which was the highest repel in north america and the highest work related repel in the world. there was 6 of us up there that day. I've spent 103 days in, on or under a chopper this year, and about 50 days working barehand at 500,000 volts. I was inserted twice, in heavy cloud by a helicopter long line (80' rope underneath the chopper) onto energized conductor. I spent july in 30' of snow in grizzly country. 

I could elaborate more, but the few guys I work with couldn't be beaten in terms of job danger, or pay...

I'd like to try a few months high-leading, but all the good hands I've got workin for me say it's no good, especially now with this cheap market.

Sorry for getting this thread soooo off topic.


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## 056 kid

MR4WD said:


> I climbed spruce over 10' wide just to top them for powerline clearance... Felled a few with an 880 and a 42'' bar



Thoes would be some nice photos!


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## tramp bushler

.... The fact is that being a bushler in Southeast Alaska is more dangerous than what you do ......... Wether there is alot of money spent on safety or not... I,m not tower loggin , that isn,t nearly as dangerous .... Just fallin and buckin for production ... .... Just go thru the people you know and have worked with over a ten year span and see what percentage are dead from job related deaths ...... I,m not braggin .. its actually very sad . But working for a power utility , isn,t on the same page ......... I know a guy who repelled about 550 ft.into a sink hole near Nauketi Bay on Prince of Wales Island .. He was doing it for fun ......
.
. But there is a serious danger question I have for you about what you do ..... It seems there is a very high percentage of electrical lineman that get alot of health problems that seem to be related to working in close proximity to high voltage .. You say you are working bare handed on the wires while they are energized . it seems that wouldn,t be too good for you !. I understand you are only on one line and not grounded . But all that juice has to go somewhere ......


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## MR4WD

tramp bushler said:


> .... The fact is that being a bushler in Southeast Alaska is more dangerous than what you do ......... Wether there is alot of money spent on safety or not... I,m not tower loggin , that isn,t nearly as dangerous .... Just fallin and buckin for production ... .... Just go thru the people you know and have worked with over a ten year span and see what percentage are dead from job related deaths ...... I,m not braggin .. its actually very sad . But working for a power utility , isn,t on the same page ......... I know a guy who repelled about 550 ft.into a sink hole near Nauketi Bay on Prince of Wales Island .. He was doing it for fun ......
> .
> . But there is a serious danger question I have for you about what you do ..... It seems there is a very high percentage of electrical lineman that get alot of health problems that seem to be related to working in close proximity to high voltage .. You say you are working bare handed on the wires while they are energized . it seems that wouldn,t be too good for you !. I understand you are only on one line and not grounded . But all that juice has to go somewhere ......



I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I just couldn't see dropping big trees as world class danger. I don't work for a utility either, btw.

I don't know of a single lineman with a health related problem, from working in the proximity of high voltage. I don't know of anybody in the world with a health related problem from high voltage. It's all hysteria.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3q9WdjD5wc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3q9WdjD5wc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

This is a closer look at what I'm pretty good at.


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## tramp bushler

Cool video !!! Must be hard on the legs crawling around like that ... What is tyhat called , a Fairaday cage ??? I have a slow dsl connection ..


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## hammerlogging

*on another note...*

Fell a tree today- left a good enough pause before i went down to buck it and top it, looked up as it fell and all, didn't notice a hanger. I was bucking the stem in half on the way down to top it, looking down at my work and damn hanger butt end hit me, a branch about 3" round right behind the ear-- hit the rear strap of the helmet harness. Just about knocked me out. Seeing stars. Just so happens it was the last tree I was falling before I had to leave early today, good thing, I wasn't mentally normal for a good 2 hours.

I radioed over to the other 2 fallers that I'd just had a head shot, to hang tight while i figured out if I was ok but they were there in a second anyway. Nice of them. Nice to have radios. Packed my #### out for me even, hung out telling stories while i decided if I could drive or not.

Wake up call. Just have a big bump there now. Be safe.

Kind of an exposed spot on a helmet, when your head is tilted down like that


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## coastalfaller

hammerlogging said:


> Fell a tree today- left a good enough pause before i went down to buck it and top it, looked up as it fell and all, didn't notice a hanger. I was bucking the stem in half on the way down to top it, looking down at my work and damn hanger butt end hit me, a branch about 3" round right behind the ear-- hit the rear strap of the helmet harness. Just about knocked me out. Seeing stars. Just so happens it was the last tree I was falling before I had to leave early today, good thing, I wasn't mentally normal for a good 2 hours.
> 
> I radioed over to the other 2 fallers that I'd just had a head shot, to hang tight while i figured out if I was ok but they were there in a second anyway. Nice of them. Nice to have radios. Packed my #### out for me even, hung out telling stories while i decided if I could drive or not.
> 
> Wake up call. Just have a big bump there now. Be safe.
> 
> Kind of an exposed spot on a helmet, when your head is tilted down like that



Glad your OK, could have been much worse. One of my guys spent a night in hospital last month from the same thing. He actually was out for a bit. He's OK now though too. Stark reminders of the dangers of our job. Best to pay attention to these "little" wake up calls.


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## fmaglin

hammerlogging said:


> Fell a tree today- left a good enough pause before i went down to buck it and top it, looked up as it fell and all, didn't notice a hanger. I was bucking the stem in half on the way down to top it, looking down at my work and damn hanger butt end hit me, a branch about 3" round right behind the ear-- hit the rear strap of the helmet harness. Just about knocked me out. Seeing stars. Just so happens it was the last tree I was falling before I had to leave early today, good thing, I wasn't mentally normal for a good 2 hours.
> 
> I radioed over to the other 2 fallers that I'd just had a head shot, to hang tight while i figured out if I was ok but they were there in a second anyway. Nice of them. Nice to have radios. Packed my #### out for me even, hung out telling stories while i decided if I could drive or not.
> 
> Wake up call. Just have a big bump there now. Be safe.
> 
> Kind of an exposed spot on a helmet, when your head is tilted down like that


Wow! Glad you're okay. Last Friday as I was falling a snag I had a limb come loose and fall hitting my left arm which made my saw just brush my chaps. Chaps were cut but not my leg. Worst that came out of it is a black and blue forearm. That was my wake up call!


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## Jacob J.

Good thing you left with just a headache, were you seeing stars? I'm glad you're ok...

The radios do come in real handy and are considered a safety item here now. 

There's always room for one more thing to go wrong in the woods, that's why it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there...


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## 056 kid

MR4WD said:


> I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I just couldn't see dropping big trees as world class danger. I don't work for a utility either, btw.
> 
> I don't know of a single lineman with a health related problem, from working in the proximity of high voltage. I don't know of anybody in the world with a health related problem from high voltage. It's all hysteria.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3q9WdjD5wc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z3q9WdjD5wc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
> 
> This is a closer look at what I'm pretty good at.




that looks like fun. What do you end up doing up there besides checking for problems?


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## MR4WD

Don't really check for problems in a situation like that, but I've changed spacers and dampers before.


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## tramp bushler

*Hammer , Your not supposed to get Hammered*

I,ve got a big old permanent lump on the back of my head and neck from getting smashed back there , on the right side ......... It didn,t knock me out either , but I was a bit dazed laying upside down on the ground ...... If you start noticeing things with your body starting to not work right I recommend going to a GOOD chiropractor ..... One may have saved my life when I got smashed in the chin by a loaded up limb that tore my bottom lip half off ... Got a sever case of whiplash that I didn,t know I had , till my body started shutting down 2 weeks later ...... 2 visits to the spinal kraker and I was on my way back to health .......I caught myself not checking out a couple trees I had to blast a tree thru yesterday when I was limbing and bucking the one I fell .... It doesn,t take a big limb to kill a guy ....... Very glad you are ok !!!


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## hammerlogging

056 kid said:


> that looks like fun. What do you end up doing up there besides checking for problems?



BC indo bingers of course, except for Fridays, tequila shots. And checking out the killer view.


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## hammerlogging

tramp bushler said:


> It doesn,t take a big limb to kill a guy ....... Very glad you are ok !!!




No, in fact more often than not its little crap.

Just a knot now, and a good conversation starter to review safety issues at the worksite. All grins now, what is it a notch on the belt I get?

BTW, definately like the gypo shotgun system.


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## tramp bushler

*Shotguns and Knots*

 Ya , There were alot of Shake Rats on the West coast who would use #9 wire and staples . They would split the blocks to handleable weight , pull the wire over , drive in the staple and have the guy on the road go ahead on what ever ..... Worked like a million bucks !!! You just need enough lift ...


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## Ivan H.

Why doesn't he just slash fall that little pole?


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## tramp bushler

Ivan , we stopped arguing about that guy some time ago .. He must be hung up any way cause he still doesn,t have the thing on the ground .......


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