# The time has come to ask the big question...



## jimdad07 (May 12, 2010)

I am finding the saw and milling addiction to be overwhelming. That being said, I need to find a way to make it pay for itself, after the bills are paid, groceries take most of the rest. How do you guys make the hobby pay for itself? I am in to cabinet building, but the wood has to dry for a long time before I can do much of that. I also would like to tinker with rustic furniture, but am not sure if there is much demand or what to even sell anything for. I am just starting to toy with the idea maybe starting something beyond a hobby.
Here are the cabinets I built for my mother in law over the winter:


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## 820wards (May 12, 2010)

Nice cabinets Jim. I think that most people on this site mill for either fun, need for wood for their own projects and because it gives them wood you would normally not see in one of those big box stores. 

Me, I do it for fun and wood for future projects.

Chime in guys.

jerry-


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## luvsaws (May 12, 2010)

Very nice work
I think you could, if you have the time you could make a go of it!


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## BobL (May 12, 2010)

Nice work JD, it looks like you really could make a go of it.

RE: How do you guys make the hobby pay for itself?
My choices are in the negative. I either work on woodworking milling projects at $X per hour or I go to therapy at $X+ per hour. I have had many requests and made a few things for other people but found it too stressful so I no longer do it.


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## jimdad07 (May 12, 2010)

BobL said:


> Nice work JD, it looks like you really could make a go of it.
> 
> RE: How do you guys make the hobby pay for itself?
> My choices are in the negative. I either work on woodworking milling projects at $X per hour or I go to therapy at $X+ per hour. I have had many requests and made a few things for other people but found it too stressful so I no longer do it.



Have you ever thought about making Alaskan mills? You have made some good ones.


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## RVALUE (May 12, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> I am finding the saw and milling addiction to be overwhelming. That being said, I need to find a way to make it pay for itself, after the bills are paid, groceries take most of the rest. How do you guys make the hobby pay for itself? I am in to cabinet building, but the wood has to dry for a long time before I can do much of that. I also would like to tinker with rustic furniture, but am not sure if there is much demand or what to even sell anything for. I am just starting to toy with the idea maybe starting something beyond a hobby.
> Here are the cabinets I built for my mother in law over the winter:



That top pic looks like my kitchen, UNFINISHED!


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## jimdad07 (May 12, 2010)

RVALUE said:


> That top pic looks like my kitchen, UNFINISHED!



I put the last face on the island two months into it. This is only the second kitchen I have ever done, but it is just like putting fifty small projects into one. Built this one over many nights and weekends. Was worth the learning experience.


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## 820wards (May 12, 2010)

BobL said:


> Nice work JD, it looks like you really could make a go of it.
> 
> RE: How do you guys make the hobby pay for itself?
> My choices are in the negative. I either work on woodworking milling projects at $X per hour or I go to therapy at $X+ per hour. I have had many requests and made a few things for other people but found it too stressful so I no longer do it.



Guys, Bob's got it so bad he's paying for a shrink.... 

Also, I have used some of the slabs I have milled for bartering. I have made deals with rancher friends for hunting privileges in return for milling bench slabs.

jerry-


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## mtngun (May 13, 2010)

BobL said:


> I either work on woodworking milling projects at $X per hour or I go to therapy at $X+ per hour.


I feel the same way. A day in the woods is great therapy.



> Have you ever thought about making Alaskan mills?


Then it would be a job. 

I enjoy tinkering with saws, but if I started doing it for money, then it would be a job. And I don't care how much you like a certain activity, if you do it 5 days a week (or 6 or 7 days a week) week after week, year after year, it eventually stops being fun.

Actually, it is easy to justify my woodcutting addiction, because I heat with wood ...... and my heating season lasts 9 months. If I heated with electricity or propane, we'd be talking several hundred dollars per month times 9 months. Spending a few hundred each year on saws seems reasonable by comparison.


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## bobsreturn (May 13, 2010)

I always thought a day in the rainforest and milling was therapy , can be expensive though .cheers bob


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## gemniii (May 13, 2010)

After watching this site for a while I've come to realize that unless you've got either:
Special motive - got to cut up a tree anyways
or
Special wood - very valuable to someone else
or 
Special sales ability - A high demand by an established wood artisan

there is no way you will be able to cut up trees into lumber and make enough $$ to survive on with pride. 

If anyone with a CSM can cut a tree there is no special value in it.

In the case of the OP's cabinetry, it looks good, but I hope the details are a lot better than his photography.

My grandfather was a home carpenter/cabinetmaker. He made a living of it. But he wouldn't if he had to cut and dry and plane his own wood.

My prime reason for being here is to learn enough to accurately cut trees I've got to make raw, rough lumber I can use, in the same real close area that it grew up, while I'm RETIRED (i.e. paid for).

The OP could probably make a living off cabinetry, but he'd need a lot of start up time to cut, dry, plane and match his own wood.

And BobL could probably "patent" some of his Aussie Mills.


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## jimdad07 (May 13, 2010)

gemniii said:


> After watching this site for a while I've come to realize that unless you've got either:
> Special motive - got to cut up a tree anyways
> or
> Special wood - very valuable to someone else
> ...



Cell pictures stink. What I meant was in order for me to get into it the way that I would like is out of the question for me right now because like a lot of other people, my family and I are living on the edge of pay the mortgage or feed the kids. I heat with wood, so that justifies having the saws, but it is hard to come up with trees to mill on a regular basis. We have a lot of land in my family but most of it is hay field, and the trees we do have are littered with tree stands. Perhaps my best bet would be to just keep going like I am and just be happy with the occasional downed tree that comes my way. Not really looking to make it full time, just a fun side line, but I can see where it could be stressful.


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## Andrew96 (May 13, 2010)

Well JimDad, I work full time for myself....with wood. Supplying raw materials is not where the money is. Nor...I feel...is cabinet making. Everyone does it, it's not hard to do. The money is in custom work. Developing a name for yourself doesn't happen overnight. The raw materials are not that large of an expense in the big picture...but when you need it, you need it now! I mill to get cool stuff for my own projects..and for the fun of it all. Therapy if you'd like. A good change from it all and a way to get out of the shop. I'd say...be happy with what you can get in the way of trees, and make something with them. If you sell it off, do another. Custom made to order is the way to go (pick your product...be the master it). Do it on your time and make sure it's enjoyable. You never know what it will turn into down the path/trail/road but it's a long way before you get to pavement.


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## HUCKLEBERRY (May 13, 2010)

jimdad,

There are many tweener steps you could and probably need to take if you'd like to do more work for yourself. There are more opportunities to show your work and advertise now than there ever have been. Resources like Craigslist, Ebay, and even starting your own website are relatively inexpensive and a good way to build your business skills without "quitting your day job". Your decision could be easy if you let it make itself. If at some point you are making enough off of your hobby that you are losing money by not doing it full time it's a simple choice. The most important and difficult part of the decision in most cases is being totally honest with yourself regarding whatever thing you are pursueing. 
-Can I sell it? (Do you have solid evidence that you can?)
-Am I disciplined enough to: keep my own books, budget and not overspend, only promise what I can deliver, save during the good times etc.
-How will my decision effect my family?
-Have I really taken everything into consideration such as operating costs, insurance, travel expenses and time away from family, slow periods etc.

I've worked for myself doing work that I love for about six years. I wouldn't trade it for anything but it is a struggle. Many times I look around and think that the security and steadiness of a good "day job" would be nice. In the end it's your call. Just make a good decision based on solid evidence.


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## discounthunter (May 13, 2010)

i think woodworking falls into the starving artist catogory. my biggest project so far was a computer desk for my house so no money made. ive used some wood for game calls but i could have easily used any other means to cut that wood up. i like having a mill just for the fact if a good pieces of tree come along i can get something out of it. as far as making money well,thats what i have a full time job for.


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## mtngun (May 13, 2010)

As hobbies go, at least chainsaws produce something useful. 

Compare that to golf. How many golfers make enough money golfing to pay for their clubs, bags, carts, balls, shoes, country club membership, etc. ?

How many golfers heat their home with golf balls ?

Has anyone ever built a house with a golf club ?

Seen any furniture made with a putter ?


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## jimdad07 (May 13, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys. As I said, I was thinking more of an enjoyable side line and paying for the saw/milling hobby. I have to work on the side any way to make ends meet, I wire houses on the weekends and work in the HVAC/Refrigeration field as a technician on commercial equipment during the day. I love what I do, but I would love to do side work right out of my wood shop and be able to spend time with the kids when I want to rather than spending most of my time away from home, plus it would be cool to pass the love of working with the wood down to my kids. I do understand that milling the wood and then trying to sustain a full time shop with it is not realistic, but I think a few small projects a year may be.


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## Sawmill (May 13, 2010)

This is what happened to me. In 1994 I bought a used Woodmizer sawmill for my own use. I added Hyds to it before I used it. Many people went buy and seen it sitting there and wanted me to saw lumber for them. I wanted to get use to sawing my own before I did anyone elses in case of a major screwup. Well as I sawed up my lumber the phone kept ringing off the hook. So in the fall of 1994 I did my first paying job with the sawmill. Then it went wild. I was working in the shop 60 hours a week and trying to mill at nights and the weekends being carefull of the jobs I booked ahead. In 2001 the shop where I worked for 26 years was in the process of being downsized and after talking with my wife and an accountant I took an early retirement package and the flood gates opened up. Within 3 weeks I had a backlog of 6 months. I never dreamed that there was this much business for a sawmill. I payed for the sawmill off in 2001 and then bought a skidsteer. I got a good deal and it was also paid off in 2001. In 2005 I bought a second mill with all the bells and whisles on it and I paid it off in 2006. This is the mill I sold with the business. As the ecomny slowed down the orders tapered of some but I always managed to have at least a 3 month backlog of business. This was all by word of mouth. I always tried to be fair and saw good lumber. I started out sawing at .20 cents a board foot and when I sold the business in 2007 I was sawing for 40 cents a BF and was sawing 1500 or more BF per day. I think in todays ecomny a person would have a hard time making ago of it beause of fuel prices and the cost of parts. I really miss sawing and nothing is more relaxing the being in the woods sawing on an Oct day with the sun shinning and the leaves falling. The biggest draw back I was a custom portable business and was gone everyday from daylight to dark. I was very impressed with the people that I sawed for I still get calls from some of them just to BS. I kept the first mill and used it some on our property where I now live. I really enjoyed the experence and would not hesitate to do it again.


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## redprospector (May 14, 2010)

Sawmill said:


> This is what happened to me. In 1994 I bought a used Woodmizer sawmill for my own use. I added Hyds to it before I used it. Many people went buy and seen it sitting there and wanted me to saw lumber for them. I wanted to get use to sawing my own before I did anyone elses in case of a major screwup. Well as I sawed up my lumber the phone kept ringing off the hook. So in the fall of 1994 I did my first paying job with the sawmill. Then it went wild. I was working in the shop 60 hours a week and trying to mill at nights and the weekends being carefull of the jobs I booked ahead. In 2001 the shop where I worked for 26 years was in the process of being downsized and after talking with my wife and an accountant I took an early retirement package and the flood gates opened up. Within 3 weeks I had a backlog of 6 months. I never dreamed that there was this much business for a sawmill. I payed for the sawmill off in 2001 and then bought a skidsteer. I got a good deal and it was also paid off in 2001. In 2005 I bought a second mill with all the bells and whisles on it and I paid it off in 2006. This is the mill I sold with the business. As the ecomny slowed down the orders tapered of some but I always managed to have at least a 3 month backlog of business. This was all by word of mouth. I always tried to be fair and saw good lumber. I started out sawing at .20 cents a board foot and when I sold the business in 2007 I was sawing for 40 cents a BF and was sawing 1500 or more BF per day. I think in todays ecomny a person would have a hard time making ago of it beause of fuel prices and the cost of parts. I really miss sawing and nothing is more relaxing the being in the woods sawing on an Oct day with the sun shinning and the leaves falling. The biggest draw back I was a custom portable business and was gone everyday from daylight to dark. I was very impressed with the people that I sawed for I still get calls from some of them just to BS. I kept the first mill and used it some on our property where I now live. I really enjoyed the experence and would not hesitate to do it again.



:agree2:
Sounds kinda like my story, except I haven't sold out yet. 

Everyone else sounds like "the glass is half empty" kinda people. Even with a CSM, if you have the right kind of wood, and the right kind of customers I think you could make a go of it (Just don't quit your day job untill things are swinging your way).
Custom sawing, and specialty products are the best ways to make money with a mill.

Andy


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## BobL (May 14, 2010)

mtngun said:


> As hobbies go, at least chainsaws produce something useful.
> Compare that to golf. How many golfers make enough money golfing to pay for their clubs, bags, carts, balls, shoes, country club membership, etc. ?
> How many golfers heat their home with golf balls ?
> Has anyone ever built a house with a golf club ?
> Seen any furniture made with a putter ?



That's my argument with SWMBO and her horse. Thing is she's pretty crafty (jewelry, crochet, sewing, etc which she has sold) herself so I don't complain too much.


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## Sawmill (May 14, 2010)

redprospector said:


> :agree2:
> Sounds kinda like my story, except I haven't sold out yet.
> 
> Everyone else sounds like "the glass is half empty" kinda people. Even with a CSM, if you have the right kind of wood, and the right kind of customers I think you could make a go of it (Just don't quit your day job untill things are swinging your way).
> ...



I think that is the only way to go when custom sawing. I sawed out gunstock material for on place, saw lumber for boat builders, got hooked up with a woodworkers guid and sawed for them on a regular bases, but the best one was the house builders in the area started using the trees cleared off the lots and using the lumber back into the houses being built. There are some housing developments that I sawed all the lumber for the floors and a lot of the lumber for the trim. But these jobs were the hardest hit when ever thing slowed down. But with a little planning I think you could still get buy as a part time operation if you already had the equitment


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## huskyhank (May 14, 2010)

Do something that others won't, can't or don't do. I just cut a log with my chain saw mill that was too big for any of the real sawmills here. That's a good job for a CSM. On the other hand, there is no way that I could cut 1" barn siding efficiently, not even for my own use. I'd go buy it from a mill.


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## Sawmill (May 14, 2010)

huskyhank said:


> Do something that others won't, can't or don't do. I just cut a log with my chain saw mill that was too big for any of the real sawmills here. That's a good job for a CSM. On the other hand, there is no way that I could cut 1" barn siding efficiently, not even for my own use. I'd go buy it from a mill.



That is a big advantage of the chainsaw mill. I turned several jobs down because the logs were to big for my mill. This is where it all comes down to finding a nich and making it work for you


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## gemniii (May 14, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> Thanks for the input guys. As I said, I was thinking more of an enjoyable side line and paying for the saw/milling hobby. I have to work on the side any way to make ends meet, I wire houses on the weekends and work in the HVAC/Refrigeration field as a technician on commercial equipment during the day. I love what I do, but I would love to do side work right out of my wood shop and be able to spend time with the kids when I want to rather than spending most of my time away from home, plus it would be cool to pass the love of working with the wood down to my kids. I do understand that milling the wood and then trying to sustain a full time shop with it is not realistic, but I think a few small projects a year may be.


Warning - old fart advice coming - 
As a sideline to start with it does make sense. Try putting out feelers for some quality trees, get some free trees and start making lumber and firewood. Lumber is just thin firewood.

And if your wiring houses for the rich vacationers let them know with GOOD pictures that you also do custom cabinetry. If you've already proved you are a good, trusted, honest worker that's half the battle in getting a contractor. This might let you do some cabinetry more at your leisure over the off season. Although I suspect wiring would pay better than cabinetry.

I've got to agree with Sawmill that's there's something special about milling.

Take standing trees, chainsaws, noise, fumes, a chain that could dismember you in seconds only inches from your body, mix with some sweat and skill and end up with some beautiful wood you won't find in a big box store.


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## jimdad07 (May 14, 2010)

gemniii said:


> Warning - old fart advice coming -
> As a sideline to start with it does make sense. Try putting out feelers for some quality trees, get some free trees and start making lumber and firewood. Lumber is just thin firewood.
> 
> And if your wiring houses for the rich vacationers let them know with GOOD pictures that you also do custom cabinetry. If you've already proved you are a good, trusted, honest worker that's half the battle in getting a contractor. This might let you do some cabinetry more at your leisure over the off season. Although I suspect wiring would pay better than cabinetry.
> ...



There is something special about making your own lumber. I have just been taking some of the better oak logs from my firewood logs and sawing boards. It is so addicting it's not even funny. I have been thinking of what was said earlier in the discussion about finding one thing and becoming the master at it. I was thinking of custom gun cabinets with hidden compartments. There is a hardware/furniture store near where I live that caters to the wealthy islanders that just have to have anything that say Thousand Islands on it. I was thinking the Thousand Islands Gun Chest or something along those lines. This store told me they would put anything on the floor that I want to make and sell. May be a good place to start. As for the bad pictures, I use my cell phone because I can't get the file size small enough with a regular camera to upload on here.


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## gemniii (May 14, 2010)

The gun cabinets sounds like an EXCELLENT idea.

Your probably windows based, but i think microsucks paint will resize photos. I use Gimp on Linux, and I'm pretty sure there is a version of gimp for windoze.


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## gr8scott72 (May 14, 2010)

gemniii said:


> The gun cabinets sounds like an EXCELLENT idea.
> 
> Your probably windows based, but i think microsucks paint will resize photos. I use Gimp on Linux, and I'm pretty sure there is a version of gimp for windoze.



Free account at Photobucket, upload pictures there, pictures auto resize, then just post link in your post.

I know some argue that doing this can make for posts with missing picture links down the road but I never delete pictures that I upload and have active links from stuff I did many years ago.


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## Andrew96 (May 15, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> T I have been thinking of what was said earlier in the discussion about finding one thing and becoming the master at it. I was thinking of custom gun cabinets with hidden compartments.



Yup...now you're talking. I said make something and be the master of it for two reasons. You'll not only need to make a cabinet like no one has made before, but have some visible feature that makes it your own. Maybe a carved thingy, some curve somewhere, some special door pulls, a certain shape, or feature Something that makes it 'yours'..so someone can see from a photo (a good one), or from across the room, that that cabinet is a 'JD cabinet'. You'll then need to be the master of that cabinet. Create templates for any trick cuts you need. Make a gluing fixture up for any draws or any feature. Make templates for any parts you need to cutout (lay them over the wood to choose the best grain for that part). Everything has be done in the interest of speed and quality once you have your own design. Making a one off to be sold in the vacation area is a great start...make it right though...with an individual look, a special feature, a good name...get your shop together to make them true and fast, and you'll have full time orders lined up in a matter of one vacation season. Oh...don't just make a cabinet...make an example of a custom one to always have in that store. Get your name in there somewhere....sign them, date them, join the world of naming your price, working at your own speed. It does happen that fast.


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## jimdad07 (May 15, 2010)

[..so someone can see from a photo (a good one), 

I have never seen so many who are so serious about photos I have a couple details worked out in my head that I have never seen on gun cabinets before, I was thinking of an inlay in the bottom drawer with a canoe or something along those lines.


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## discounthunter (May 15, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> [..so someone can see from a photo (a good one),
> 
> I have never seen so many who are so serious about photos I have a couple details worked out in my head that I have never seen on gun cabinets before, I was thinking of an inlay in the bottom drawer with a canoe or something along those lines.



photos are peoples only link to see stuff.you can decribe it all you want but no 2 people will visualize it the same.also,(no discredit to you) people can claim to be masters at something,with no pictures to say other wise theres no way to prove one way or the other.its like decribing a noise to a mechanic,some people just dont have the vacol cords to reproduce funny car noises,thats why the say,"bring it in". so yes pictures are needed,are good clear pictures are the best.


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## jimdad07 (May 15, 2010)

discounthunter said:


> photos are peoples only link to see stuff.you can decribe it all you want but no 2 people will visualize it the same.also,(no discredit to you) people can claim to be masters at something,with no pictures to say other wise theres no way to prove one way or the other.its like decribing a noise to a mechanic,some people just dont have the vacol cords to reproduce funny car noises,thats why the say,"bring it in". so yes pictures are needed,are good clear pictures are the best.



I know, I was mostly joking. I am constantly getting the service calls that say the "rooftop unit sounds like it is coming off of the roof etc.".


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## BobL (May 16, 2010)

discounthunter said:


> photos are peoples only link to see stuff.you can decribe it all you want but no 2 people will visualize it the same.also,(no discredit to you) people can claim to be masters at something,with no pictures to say other wise theres no way to prove one way or the other.. . . .



I agree 100%, on another woodies form where I post, one guy wanted some advice about an old machine he was thinking of buying but He would not post any pictures of it. He kept trying with words to explain the problems it had but no one could help him and he got quite upset about.


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