# Sharpening with Dremel vs. File & Chain Breaking



## TedChristiansen (Sep 12, 2006)

I started CS milling in May 2005 with Logosol TimberJig, Husqvarna 385XP, and filed my chains (3/8" pico, Stihl 63PMX) using Pferd filing jig. Had some trouble with the bar dipping as the cut progressed. Dressing the bar and flipping the bar regularly seemed to help. I filed in the shop using the Pferd jig and Logosol filing device (vise to hold chains while sharpening). In the field I just used the Pferd.

To speed up the sharpenings I switched to a Dremel with 5/32" stone a few months ago. I sharpened in the shop on the Logosol filing device and in the field on the bar (just like the filing approach). Sharpening is faster, but since making this switch I have broken some chains. The first chains to break were the ones that I bought in 2005 - they lasted along time. So I thought that they broke because they were old. However, in two sessions recently, almost brand new chains broke, in both cases after having been sharpened a couple of times (with the Dremel). In both of these cases, the bar started dipping. I suspect the bar dipping is what caused the chains to break. In the second case, I had a new chain, bar and sprocket.

It seems sharpening with the Pferd lessens, but doesnt eliminate the problem with the bar dipping compared to the Dremel. Why would this be? When using the Dremel I take off very little material, so as not to overheat the teeth. The surface of the grind seems to be better than filing, and the teeth seem sharper with the Dremel compared to filing.

Why is sharpening with the Pferd better than the Dremel?

Ted


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## woodshop (Sep 12, 2006)

Don't know enough about chain to answer your question. I have heard from others though, that 3/8 picco chain is just not strong enough in general to take the torture that a csm dishes out. I've milled thousands of bd ft with my csm using standard 3/8 ripping chain, all kinds of hardwood and softwood, and never once broke a chain.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 12, 2006)

Woodshop,

The odd thing is that I never had a chain breakin the 1st year's worth of milling with just two chains (all filed). Since switching to the Dremel I have broken 4 chains (the two old ones and two almost new chains).

 

Ted


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## Adkpk (Sep 12, 2006)

I have never broken a chain milling or other wise. What would sharpening have to do with them breaking. I hope your just grinding the teeth. I'd look elsewhere for your problem. I don't know much about other chain either. How about the tension? Your chain should be real free on the bar. I tighten mine so I know where they're at then I loosen so they are free on the bar. I spend the time to get it the first time so I never have to retighten the chain. What is the quality of the brand? I've only used carlton chain.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 12, 2006)

What is PMX chain? Is that the small narrow stuff?
One difference in using a grinder is how the angles are maintained. If you're free handing, maybe your putting too much hook angle on the side plate. This would make the cutter more aggressive and put more strain on it.
If you were using a chain that is on the weak side for a saw that big, then you put a more aggressive angle on it, it might cause problems to start showing up.
Just guessing here.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Sep 13, 2006)

I've sharpened with a Dremmel for a long time but have never broken a chain while milling. I can't see how this alone could be the cause. 

I believe what Mike said is the most likely culprit. I've read somewhere to use the next size larger file to reduce the chances of having too much hook. Maybe it was here but i can't remember.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 13, 2006)

A bigger file, or in this case, a bigger grinder wheel would help, but just holding the the grinder higher on the cutter will reduce the hook angle.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 13, 2006)

Mike (and all),

Thanks for the helpful information - that makes sense. I'll look at using a larger stone.

What if the teeth are not all the same length? Would that make the chain pull to one side, causing the bar to dip/move?

Regards,

Ted


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## clearance (Sep 13, 2006)

The teeth and rakers should be the same sizes for the best production. The hook matter is perhaps a red herring, I have been hand filing saws from 020s to 394s for the last twenty years, sometimes no hook, sometimes huge hooks, both from the side and looking down from the top. I have had a few chains break on me, sometimes because of the straps being filed, sometimes cause the chain had been caught and bent, sometimes for no apparent reason. I can't say one way or the other that hooks make chains break. When I was juvenile spacing I ran a 266XP with an 18" bar and 73 lg chain (chisel, non-skip), I had hooks in the teeth, pounded that saw all day, like 8-10 tanks. Basically juvenile spacing is just revving up the saw a second before you hit the tree with the back of the bar and slicing right through it. Bars only lasted a month at best, even with constant care, chains broke on me maybe three times in two years. So many chains I filed right to nothing and hucked 'em in the bush, so, I have to call BS on the hook thing.


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## poleframer (Sep 14, 2006)

On inspection, which link in the chain broke? what evidence of the failure do you see? Should tell you right there. I run 404/ .063 ga on my 090, no prob. ,even with a lot of filing changes. On my ms200t I run micro picco chain, and have to be careful, cause their aint much room before I start to file close to a rivet if I dive with the file.


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## carvinmark (Sep 14, 2006)

I am so far from being an expert on filing a chain, but here is what has happened with my chains on my mill:
I used to hand sharpen-ok for the first 1 or 2 times and then the bar would dip or rise during the cut-Not good!
Then I would send my chains to different shops to be ground. Never got one back that cut even close to a new one and needed to be filed after first cut.I had deep conversations with shop owners and employees on this problem but it just didn't help in the end.
Next I used my dremel, by hand, with no guide and it worked real good for the first few times then I was back to the same situation I had with filing by hand-Not good.
After realizing that I needed to learn to file or come up with something so I got a bench mounted grinder,511a,and it has made milling fun again.

I'm not trying to say one way is better than the other! I admit it, I can't hand file worth a damn unless I use a guide,and I struggle with them too.
I absolutely love my grinder and for me, I will always grind my chains cause it works for me,REAL GOOD. Wish I would have got it sooner.


Mark   :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 15, 2006)

If anybody wants to take a close up picture of a chain that's giving them trouble, we can have a look and if it'sa good picture, let you know whats wrong.
Ted, do you still have one of those broken chains?
Also, when a chain breaks, it's a simple thing to repair.


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## manual (Sep 15, 2006)

Breaking a Chain ?
First thing that went through my mind was rakers. Or maybe lack of lube.

Mark I understand where you are coming from. The difference between
using a machine and by hand is consistancy.

Would like to see the chains that are breaking too.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 15, 2006)

I would also like some clarification on what Ted means when he says the chain dips? Is this intermittent crooked cutting?


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 15, 2006)

Here is a picture of the chain. The drive link broke.

Since it is pico chain, will a chainsaw shop be able to repair it (will they have the right drive link on hand)?

Ted


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 15, 2006)

*Bar Dipping*

Mike,

Bar dipping is how I describe it because the bar is horizontal. It is the same result as crooked cutting I suppose.

The unsupported end of the bar bends down as the cut lengthwise along the log progresses.

Ted


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 15, 2006)

TedChristiansen said:


> Here is a picture of the chain. The drive link broke.
> 
> Since it is pico chain, will a chainsaw shop be able to repair it (will they have the right drive link on hand)?
> 
> Ted


They should be able to fix it Ted. It's just like the 63 PM pico chain. I had the Stihl dealer fix a 24" for me a while back. Cost $4 if he did it. If you got a breaker & spinner, you can fix it for a buck.
I run a 385XP on the M7 and have cut with the 63 PM chain left at the 30* angle. Cut fine, just not as smooth. I also got caught in a bind once while building a deck and needed a 10 foot 2x10 to finish and my 385 went down. Finished up the last 2 cuts with a Stilh 310MS with a 20" bar and reg 30* chain. Cut just fine.
I don't understand why your cuts are pulling down as you cut through the log. Has it done this from the first cut, or just started to do it?
Rodney


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## manual (Sep 16, 2006)

Using a chain saw to mill logs to lumber is new to me.
If it were a bandsaw and you get dipping it eather have a bad set or band is streached.
just guessing I would say one side is sharper then other or bow in the bar.
What happens if you were to flip bar over.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 16, 2006)

I was thinking more about this bar dipping problem. What about the chain being tighter than it needs to be? If you add the effects of a the chain being unequally sharpened and the chain being tighter than need be, it seems the bar could dip like this. Narrow ripping chain is .050 gauge, with a thinner bar.

Next time I mill I am going to set the chain a little looser than I do normally and see how it does.

Ted


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## woodshop (Sep 16, 2006)

TedChristiansen said:


> I was thinking more about this bar dipping problem. What about the chain being tighter than it needs to be? If you add the effects of a the chain being unequally sharpened and the chain being tighter than need be, it seems the bar could dip like this. Narrow ripping chain is .050 gauge, with a thinner bar.
> 
> Next time I mill I am going to set the chain a little looser than I do normally and see how it does.
> 
> Ted


In my experience, a looser chain will wander MORE than a tighter one in my csm. A bar that wanders in a cut is often due to chain not sharpened correctly, like if you had a tendency to sharpen all the left teeth a little deeper than the right ones, it will pull to the one side.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 16, 2006)

I've been thinkin' more about it to Ted, and the truth is you may never know. You might have bent your bar so it might even dip with a new chain. It might be best to start over with every thing new on your powerhead.

Rodney


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## woodshop (Sep 16, 2006)

I'd be willing to bet, assuming your bar is not bent, that a new chain will not dip for you. When it did dip, were you cutting anything out of the ordinary? I ask because I have noticed that some situations, like the triple crotch piece of an oak log I sliced up yesterday, often give me trouble no matter how sharp or how tuned up my setup is. Just hard sawing, simple as that, tough to keep the thing on track. Once I got away from the crotch end of the log, the board milled easy as pie. Today I started to mill a 36" dia pecan, and that was tough going also. Some woods just give ya more trouble. Tomorrow I'll be milling some poplar raisedbywolves offered me, and that should go real smooth, as poplar cuts like soft pine, only better because its often without the knots. 

Dave


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 17, 2006)

The picture of the chain shows it ripped apart at the drive link, which indicates it was just overpowered. It's a small chain and a strong saw, and I understand you want to use the smaller chain to make a thinner cut, but know you are at the upper limits with this chain.
As to why you just started having trouble, I suspect it's a combination of factors. As mentioned, different wood will cut differently, along with the possibility that you were getting a little heavy handed, maybe pushing a little harder? 
Another possibility is bar wear. As you put miles on a bar, the grove gets worn which increases the play between the drive link and the bar rails. It's also important to dress your rails and flip your bar frequently, are you staying on top of this? Also try sticking a feeler gage all along the slot on your bar, how close to .050" are you?
You take a lousy picture by the way. Try using more light, hold the camera a little farther away, make sure your set at close up range, and hold the shutter button down half way until the camera focuses, before taking the shot.
What I can see looks like the the angles are pretty good, although it almost looks like the cutters on the far side are a little different than those on the close side of the chain.
Look at the close ups. Mill saw chain 1 shows what looks like too much hook, while Mill saw chain 2 looks perfect.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 17, 2006)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> I've been thinkin' more about it to Ted, and the truth is you may never know. You might have bent your bar so it might even dip with a new chain. It might be best to start over with every thing new on your powerhead.
> 
> Rodney


A bent bar is easy to diagnose, set it on your kitchen counter (best done while the wife is out shopping).
A bent bar will not cause crooked cutting, it will just cut along the curve in the bar, which would have to be very bad to cause trouble.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 17, 2006)

Ted, you didn't say if the dipping was intermittent or continuous, and whether or not flipping the bar solved the problem.


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## oldsaw (Sep 17, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> The picture of the chain shows it ripped apart at the drive link, which indicates it was just overpowered. It's a small chain and a strong saw, and I understand you want to use the smaller chain to make a thinner cut, but know you are at the upper limits with this chain.
> As to why you just started having trouble, I suspect it's a combination of factors. As mentioned, different wood will cut differently, along with the possibility that you were getting a little heavy handed, maybe pushing a little harder?
> Another possibility is bar wear. As you put miles on a bar, the grove gets worn which increases the play between the drive link and the bar rails. It's also important to dress your rails and flip your bar frequently, are you staying on top of this? Also try sticking a feeler gage all along the slot on your bar, how close to .050" are you?
> You take a lousy picture by the way. Try using more light, hold the camera a little farther away, make sure your set at close up range, and hold the shutter button down half way until the camera focuses, before taking the shot.
> ...



Too much power, too little chain. Chain designed for small wood in a low powered saw isn't a good match for a CSM. I've used only 3/8 rip chain with zero problems. When I've caught nails, the cutters bent and/or tore off, the chain stayed intact. That makes me feel good. If I get a lot of excess play in the chain, it is immediately "retired". Safety first.

Mark


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 17, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> A bent bar is easy to diagnose, set it on your kitchen counter (best done while the wife is out shopping).
> A bent bar will not cause crooked cutting, it will just cut along the curve in the bar, which would have to be very bad to cause trouble.


If I had a woman causing that much trouble, I would change woman. Done so in the past.
If a bent bar dosen't cause problems, why the hell spend money on a new one?
Rodney


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 17, 2006)

Mike Maas said:


> Ted, you didn't say if the dipping was intermittent or continuous, and whether or not flipping the bar solved the problem.


Sure he did. You just didn't read it before typing.
Rodney


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## clearance (Sep 17, 2006)

A bent bar will screw you, this I know well. The kitchen counter idea isn't good enough, I use a quality 4' builders level. If its bent, even a bit, chuck it.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 17, 2006)

We will have to agree to disagree on this one (add it to the already long list), but I suspect you had other bar problems and noticed the bar was also bent, so you blamed that, not knowing the rails were uneven or spread, or the grove was worn.
Any flat serface will work, as well as eyeballing down the bar to see if it's bent. I'm not sure I own a bar that is perfectly flat, but they all cut straight.
If your kitchen counter isn't flat, I have to ask, who installed it?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Sep 18, 2006)

After studying the picture closely, I have to agree with those that have said this chain is simply too weak to withstand the stress applied to it by that saw. I would recommend a new 3/8" .063 bar and ripping chain. A slightly smaller kerf is really not worth the safety risk of broken chains I.M.O. As Mike pointed out, the hook angles are in fact quite inconsistent. All the right hand cutters are 5 to 10 degrees and left hand cutters vary from 30 to 45 degrees. This may or may not be the actual cause of the bar wandering but it's not helping either. Sharpening with a Dremel is tricky because you can get things way out of whack before you realize the damage is done. I took one of those cheap guides and modified it to produce less hook and scribed a 5 deg line for the top plate angle. With a light hand and proper technique, I get better results with the dremel than I have ever gotten from a hand file (I know I'm about to get blasted by the hand file purists). It takes practice but it worth it i.m.o.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 24, 2006)

All,

Thanks to Martin Hall at Logosol, the dipping bar problem is solved.

Turns out the clutch cover is not a high tolerance die-casting, so the surface where the extender nuts are installed is not parallel to the bar. This meant that the bar was not parallel to the guide rail - see attached picture.

I put a 4' long straight stick on the bar as shown in the picture. The leading edge of the bar was 1" low over the 4' span! No wonder the bar was dipping! This was the same for both 24" and 16" bars. It is clearly the clutch cover.

I shimmed the carriage to make the bar parallel to the guide rail. I was cutting the same white oak today that had the bar dipping/chain breaking two weeks ago and it worked great. No bar dipping (at all), and there was no gap between the bar and the log at the end of the cut.

I had the broken 24" chain repaired and used it today - no issues.

Regards,

Ted


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## woodshop (Sep 24, 2006)

TedChristiansen said:


> I had the broken 24" chain repaired and used it today - no issues.
> Ted



Glad you got your mill back on track (no pun intended)  

As per the chain issue, I have to agree with aggie on this one, if only for safety sake, and piece of mind going down the log, if I were you my next bar/chain would be a standard .375....050 or .063. Difference in kerf is negligible, and you would have a much stronger chain that would better take the rigors of milling.


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## Rodney Sinclair (Sep 24, 2006)

That's great Ted. I will file this one away for future use. Did Logosol have your chain fixed or did you have to and who did it?
Rodney


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 25, 2006)

Rodney,

I had the chain fixed at a local shop - cost me $5.

Woodshop,

The kerf loss isnt a concern, but milling speed is. The pico chains cut quite a bit faster than "regular." And since the only time I have broken chains was when I had the bar dipping problem, I am assuming that I shouldn't run into chain breakage. This means of course revisiting this paralellism again when the clutch cover is replaced, and replacing the rim sprocket as new chains are commissioned.

Ted


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## manual (Sep 25, 2006)

TedChristiansen said:


> All,
> 
> Thanks to Martin Hall at Logosol, the dipping bar problem is solved.
> 
> ...




Glad to see you r problem is fixed.
Sounds like your were cutting wood on an angle, more then dipping.


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## woodshop (Sep 25, 2006)

TedChristiansen said:


> The kerf loss isnt a concern, but milling speed is. The pico chains cut quite a bit faster than "regular."



I know that the larger .404 chain takes more power to pull through wood, thus cuts slower than .375 same powerhead. I know from my woodshop, that thin kerf blades on my tablesaw, which are 3/32 wide don't take as much power to plow through thick wood than standard 1/8 inch saw blades. However in the case of the table saw, if you have a large 3HP cabinet saw, that's really not an issue. I wonder if that same analogy holds for chainsaw mills. Regardless, logic (at the very least) dictates that the thinner pico chain takes less power regardless of what powerhead you run, thus goes a bit faster. Can you get as many sharpenings in that milling situation from a pico chain than 3/8 I wonder? Just being curious.


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## TedChristiansen (Sep 25, 2006)

Woodshop,

I have a 36" inch .063 3/8" chain for cutting big logs. The 24" pico chain cuts a lot faster, even if you factor out the 12" less bar!

The teeth on the 63PMX chain are quite long. I probably went through 4 chains (2 24" and 2 16") in one year, and cut about 1000 board feet with them.

I have been very happy with the setup and speed of milling. I have more than enough wood for my own use, and need to spend this winter using some of it to clear out my "drying area."

Ted


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