# Removing large trunk



## Kaptain_K (May 21, 2010)

I am planning an upcoming removal of a big Cottonwood tree and it all looks manageable except the trunk. I'm not sure how to deal with the trunk, it's about 5' plus diameter and a good 15' tall. I'm guessing a nice long bar to make the cuts and a crane or a big loader would be the way to go but I'm not used to dealing with trunks of this size. The only way I can think of to get the job done with tools on hand (20" bar and truck/chain for tugging) would be to apple core out the base of the trunk and tug it over with the truck. Any advice would be great.
Thanks
Kapt K


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## treemandan (May 21, 2010)

What do you mean by " apple core" ?


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## Kaptain_K (May 21, 2010)

I meant that I'd use my 20" bar and take wedges out of the base until I can reach through to make a felling cut. It resembles an apple core..I guess I made it up. I thought it was official jargon.


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## Tree Pig (May 21, 2010)

20" bar your biggest bar. I guess if thats all you have you can make it work but common though is a bar at least half the diameter of the wood and a saw strong enough to run it. Good luck


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## randyg (May 21, 2010)

Kaptain_K said:


> I meant that I'd use my 20" bar and take wedges out of the base until I can reach through to make a felling cut. It resembles an apple core..I guess I made it up. I thought it was official jargon.




Works ok for beavers


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## Brodie (May 21, 2010)

Honestly you are just making things hard for yourself. I dont know what sort of position you are in but when i was in a similar situation I went and got a bigger saw and its paying for its self very well now i dont even have to think about saws being an issue. As for actually removing the trunk from the property well cheapest option is to block it up into manageable pieces and hand load onto the back of the truck otherwise you would have to look at some sort of loader. 

One of the best options would be to get a bigger saw if you are working with trees professionally. It may seem like alot of money up-front but it pays for its self. Think of it this way if it takes you 20 minutes to "Apple Core" the trunk it would take me no more that 5-10 minutes so you can you are already saving money in man hours. 

Just my two cents worth. 
Brodie


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## 2FatGuys (May 21, 2010)

I'm a little confused... 5' diameter and only 15' tall? The cottonwoods around here that are close to 5' diameter would still be at least 4' diameter at 15' high!

How are you taking down the rest of the tree? What are you using to get it down to 15' tall?

I'm thinking if you have to ask how to deal with this size wood, you probably don't need to take the risk of handling it.


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## Kaptain_K (May 21, 2010)

Yes, it's 5' diameter up to about 15', then the limbs separate into multiple trunks and are manageable with my 20"

Apple coring, Yep, works for beavers, exactly what I was thinking. I will use my bucket truck for the tree itself, it's a good 50-60' foot tall. No problems there.

I agree, I need a bigger saw. Last time I 'apple-cored' a trunk, it took me over an hour....plunging, wedging, sharpening up the chain, knocking out the wedges, pain in the arse. 

Moved on to Plan #2: I did a tradeout with another tree guy today...his chipper is down so I'm swapping him my chipper for the weekend, and he's bringing his 36" saw on Monday and we'll tackle the tree together. 

2FatGuys: Yes, it's true, I am not an seasoned tree man, but I do have lot of ground experience with trees, and saws, and now I've got some bigger tree equipment, so I'm putting it to good use by renting it out, using it, learning whenever I can, and stretching to bigger jobs whenever I can. I learn by watching, doing, and asking questions. I tackle new opportunities every day by reading, researching, asking questions, doing it wrong several times, and then ultimately mastering whatever task I'm up against. So yeah, that's why I'm here asking for typical ways or good ideas for removing that last massive hunk of a trunk that I'll be staring at towards the end of the job. Once I do it a few times, I won't ask anymore, okay?

Thanks for the replies guys. I do have a boner for a new jumbo sized saw....a couple more jobs and I'll have it. I told my girlfriend I "needed a longer bar", and she agreed, so it shoudn't be a problem to go buy one! 
Kap't K


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## squad143 (May 22, 2010)

If the trading thing works, great. 
If not, then check out the rental shops. 
No sense buying a saw that you'll only use once or twice a year. (unless you get a great deal on kijiji).


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## gilraine (May 22, 2010)

you bought a bucket truck, before a large saw?????????? am I the only one who sees this as backwards???? can you climb without the bucket???I don't want this to seem harsh, but I think you have the priorities a little skewed...


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## tree MDS (May 23, 2010)

gilraine said:


> you bought a bucket truck, before a large saw?????????? am I the only one who sees this as backwards???? can you climb without the bucket???I don't want this to seem harsh, but I think you have the priorities a little skewed...



No, I agree it seems a little fishy..

even his girlfriend agrees he needs a bigger tool for the job.


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## Blakesmaster (May 23, 2010)

gilraine said:


> you bought a bucket truck, before a large saw?????????? am I the only one who sees this as backwards???? can you climb without the bucket???I don't want this to seem harsh, but I think you have the priorities a little skewed...



Can't have a tree service w/out a bucket truck ya know.


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## rarefish383 (May 24, 2010)

If this is a home owner I'd say rent a bigger saw too. If this is a business, I'd say get a new business, because you are doing things in a dangerous way and are prone to wind up in one of our other forums. Sorry for being blunt, but it does not sound like you are a licensed and insured pro, Joe.


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## D&B Mack (May 24, 2010)

I understand what you are saying, many tree guys around here only run up to a 50cc saw with a 20" bar. Most of what they cut is less that 40" in diameter, so it works for them. I posted the following in another forum, but it could help you here. Many of those same guys put a 36" bar on their smaller saws but run a full skip chain. It will be slow cutting, but for the one or two trees a year you may be doing, it does work.


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## 2FatGuys (May 24, 2010)

D&B Mack said:


> I understand what you are saying, many tree guys around here only run up to a 50cc saw with a 20" bar. Most of what they cut is less that 40" in diameter, so it works for them. I posted the following in another forum, but it could help you here. Many of those same guys put a 36" bar on their smaller saws but run a full skip chain. It will be slow cutting, but for the one or two trees a year you may be doing, it does work.



A 50cc saw... with a 36" bar? You are kidding... right? You do know that underpowering the bar is one of the most dangerous aspects of felling... don't you? If you don't have power in reserve when you need to direct the fall, you could be the next YouTube disaster film.

I wouldn't put anything over a 20" bar on a 50cc saw (and then only if using .325 chain). I wouldn't go to a 36" until I had at least 70cc of grunt behind it even if using skip. Skip is NOT a license to go to an obnoxiously longer bar!

Around here, a tree guy with only a 50cc saw is called a landscaper.


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## Gumnuts (May 24, 2010)

*OH boy - we got a live one here.*

Are you having us on ?
Honestly.....is this a paid job ? If so get a bigger saw or pay someone to
drop.
Where is the tree in relation to obstacles/ other trees / houses / roads.
Do not attempt to prove you can do it.........repeat .
Your asking for grief.........apple core grief/danger.sigh
Know of a guy who has come to grief several times using the wrong tools.
he had one tree 7' Cypress fall across a road.Grief.Only had small saws and a loader.
Laughing stock of tree world my area.Need i mention the damage and waste of time he caused himself and others.
Look for another type job with your loader to pay for a bigger saw.


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## Brodie (May 24, 2010)

As I mention in a previous post I agree with the general consensus that this job is going to be dangerous with the wrong tools. 

Having said that have we all always had the right tools at hand to do the job. My point is that in most cases in our working life we have all pushed the boundaries of our tools and working team with that oversized job that when quoting looked like an in and out job but when we were actually doing it became a lot bigger. Ill be the first one to say that I will push the boundaries but ill also tell you that after I have pushed the boundaries (and gotten away with it just by pure luck) that I have fixed the situation in my case I started my career with a climbing saw and a 029 farm boss little undersized for the trees in Australia so at my first opportunity I got myself a 660. Point being there in no point questioning qualification or the way people run a business it is to get the message across to *GET THE RIGHT GEAR FOR THE JOB AT HAND* 
Kaptain_K I hope you make the right decision it would be a shame to hear that there was an accident just because you didn't have the proper gear.


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## discounthunter (May 24, 2010)

something else to factor in,what are you going to do with the 5ft wide 15 ft trunk when its on the ground? apple core it up into rounds? chip it?pick it up with yur bucket and put it in the back of the pickup?


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## D&B Mack (May 25, 2010)

2FatGuys said:


> A 50cc saw... with a 36" bar? You are kidding... right? You do know that underpowering the bar is one of the most dangerous aspects of felling... don't you? If you don't have power in reserve when you need to direct the fall, you could be the next YouTube disaster film.
> 
> I wouldn't put anything over a 20" bar on a 50cc saw (and then only if using .325 chain). I wouldn't go to a 36" until I had at least 70cc of grunt behind it even if using skip. Skip is NOT a license to go to an obnoxiously longer bar!
> 
> Around here, a tree guy with only a 50cc saw is called a landscaper.



First, I'm not talking about myself. Other guys around here do it.

Second, I'm not saying it is the "best" scenario, all I am saying is that guys around here do it and make it work.

Third, saying you need a bigger saw than 50cc around here to be a "tree" guy I think would be an incorrect statement. I did a lot of tree work for years with only having a 50cc saw. I only purchased bigger saws when I started doing large clearing projects on old growth sites. To have trees around here larger that 36" is pretty uncommon for the typical tree job.


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## tree md (May 25, 2010)

I agree that buying a bucket before you even have a large enough saw to do the work is pretty whacked out. No offense but I have to look at hat racked trees all up and down the road from guys who never learned the job or how to climb and prune but jumped in there and bought a bucket and now they call themselves "treemen".

As far as the saw. I have always used larger jobs to finance my operation. I started out small and when I would need a larger saw or other item to complete a job I would always bid that job to finance what I needed. If I needed a 441 I would buy it and cover the expense in my bid for the tree that I needed it for.

As far as dealing with the wood. If you have a big enough saw you can cut your rounds as thin as you need to to move and roll them. We call them wagon wheels. You can pie the stump up small enough to carry it out. Hard work and time consuming but that is the old school way of doing it. Be sure to bid enough to cover your labor. I often find it just a cheap if not cheaper to take it down and load it out with a crane.


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## Bermie (May 25, 2010)

Whew...you need to learn how to cut a large trunk with an undersized bar...there are several techinques, 'fishtailing' out the centre of the tree by boring though the middle of the hinge, boring in from either side, walking the saw from one side to the other, using wedges as you go...thing is these are advanced techniques that need practice first. Type of tree matters too...some timber is real hard and dense, will affect which sequence of cuts to choose.

Get on the net and start your research.
20" 60cc is my biggest saw and I can easily take out trunks almost up to 3x the length of the bar without 'apple coring'!!! These are few and far between, so having a monster bar doesn't make sense for me...or I can borrow one. 
You don't necessarily need a big bar, you just need to know how to use a smaller one to your advantage. Cost effectiveness is key...got LOTS of big trees maybe its more cost effective to get a big saw, only have a few, use a good smaller saw effectively and use the money somewhere else...

Once that puppy is on the ground, get a crane truck and cut it as few times as possible, load it up and off you go, otherwise you'll be there forEVER!


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## 2FatGuys (May 25, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Whew...you need to learn how to cut a large trunk with an undersized bar...



Dangit Bermie! We KNOW that YOU (and some others on here) can do it with a 20. We're talking about a relative newbie. If someone asks about "apple coring", then odds are he's not got any idea how to "fishtail" or do any other advanced technique. My concern is for the safety and the risk management. The larger saw and longer bar remove several risk factors (ok... yes I know they add other risks... ).

i just don't want to be reading about the OP in the Injuries forrum.


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## Bermie (May 26, 2010)

2FatGuys said:


> Dangit Bermie! We KNOW that YOU (and some others on here) can do it with a 20. We're talking about a relative newbie. If someone asks about "apple coring", then odds are he's not got any idea how to "fishtail" or do any other advanced technique. My concern is for the safety and the risk management. The larger saw and longer bar remove several risk factors (ok... yes I know they add other risks... ).
> 
> i just don't want to be reading about the OP in the Injuries forrum.



Dang it, smack me down!! Ok point taken, but at least letting him know that there are alternatives to his apple core technique that he could begin to look into might start to broaden his skill set.

So ok, a bigger saw, one cut would probably be safer for this project this time, get some PPE and let 'er rip.

Have a  FatGuy


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## pdqdl (May 26, 2010)

I have noticed that Bermie gets a bit thin skinned every time we start talking about needing longer bars.

I wonder if she is just trying to educate all the guys that size doesn't matter; it is using the right technique that gets the job done...


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## Mikecutstrees (May 26, 2010)

If your removing a tree of that size you should be getting a few grand. Put $1,000 into a MS660 or 460 Mag. It will pay for itself many times over in your career. Besides it isn't any fun cutting a tree that size with a 20" bar. Have some fun get a big saw. I love the looks when I pull out the 880 with 36" Cannon Superbar. One Bad AZZ SAW!!!!


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## NCTREE (May 26, 2010)

Go with a 460 mag I think you'll get much more use out of it then a 660. I have a 385 with a 28" bar thats my biggest saw, never did a tree that I couldn't get through with that. I cut a 6' dia cottonwood trunk with it before. Takes some skill to make your cuts right but it works.


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## treeclimber101 (May 26, 2010)

I don't care what size the tree is you give a 25" on a 066 and I will cut any tree into tooth picks if you want , the problem is people let big wood scare them , its all just saw chips to me


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## Bermie (May 27, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I have noticed that Bermie gets a bit thin skinned every time we start talking about needing longer bars.
> 
> I wonder if she is just trying to educate all the guys that size doesn't matter; it is using the right technique that gets the job done...



Oh man, you figured out the code...BUSTED!!!

Really though, sorry if I sound like a broken record...


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## pdqdl (May 28, 2010)

Actually, I just saw a good opportunity to be a wise-ass. 

I thought about commenting that since we all knew that you proudly declared that you didn't have a big bar and didn't need one, so you couldn't appreciate how fun they are to use, nor how much easier it is to get the job done when you are working with a more capable tool.

Fortunately, I restrained myself, as I have too much integrity to pass along suggestive and salacious comments like that.


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## Bermie (May 28, 2010)

No worries...if I can't handle it in a forum swimming in testosterone I don't deserve to be a tree girl!

AS for bigger bars, the returns diminish quickly for me as I am so small, it becomes a bit difficult to handle them efficiently...but here's a pic for you all...

Sorry for the derail....


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## tree md (May 28, 2010)

Nice saw Bermie! 

I was able to use an 880 for the first time a month or so back on a large Oak removal. Up to that point the 660 was the biggest I had used. I hear you on diminished returns. I want to be able to use the most adequate saw for the task at hand. I surely wouldn't want to be having to wield that 880 on a regular basis all day long. Not easy to notch with it because it is so heavy (especially with the 5' bar). Hard to cut a level notch. Great saw to have when you need it though.

Remind me to tell you about the job I did where I took down a 6' DBH cotton wood, cut it into rounds and rolled them through the gate from the back yard to the front to load them with a small echo climbing saw and two 029's with 18" bars. The tree sprawled over two homes. Man, it took us a week to finish that job. Me and one other guy. It was one of the first large removals I tried to do on my own... On second thought, don't remind me to tell you about it... I'm still trying to forget that one.


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## pdqdl (May 28, 2010)

That can't be Bermie in the picture.

1. That saw is too new. If it was her saw, it would be well used. The paint on the bar would be at least a little bit scuffed up.
2. She lives in BERMUDA. It's too warm to dress like that down there. Do you even own any sweat suits like that?

It does look like her hard hat though... Where did you do the 880 demo at ?


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## Bermie (May 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That can't be Bermie in the picture.
> 
> 1. That saw is too new. If it was her saw, it would be well used. The paint on the bar would be at least a little bit scuffed up.
> 2. She lives in BERMUDA. It's too warm to dress like that down there. Do you even own any sweat suits like that?
> ...



Ya mon, that's me!

1. Yes it was a brand new saw...Ha, I wish it was mine...
2. Bermuda in the winter is cold...well cold to us, fleece is good...I have many

That's my old hat...five years ago, its now the groundies loaner...that was in England, recert at the College...in November! Hence the fleecies and the chainsaw pants...


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## Kaptain_K (Jun 2, 2010)

*Got er done*

Got a bigger saw. All done. 

Thanks for those comments that were helpful and actually pertained to my question. The rest of you should be out working instead of putting down newbies who are trying to learn in the 101 section. If some of you spent as much time working and learning as you did judging others, you would be happier people I'm sure. You *experts* can't even agree amongst yourselves on proper technique or tools, because there are many ways to skin every cat.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do. Lots and lots of work.


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## Mikecutstrees (Jun 2, 2010)

Kaptain_K said:


> Got a bigger saw. All done.
> 
> Thanks for those comments that were helpful and actually pertained to my question. The rest of you should be out working instead of putting down newbies who are trying to learn in the 101 section. If some of you spent as much time working and learning as you did judging others, you would be happier people I'm sure. You *experts* can't even agree amongst yourselves on proper technique or tools, because there are many ways to skin every cat.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I've got work to do. Lots and lots of work.



Good! But whats with the secrecy? What did you get? We need TO KNOW!!!!! 

Haha


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## tree md (Jun 3, 2010)

You just hold the tail. Who's ####ing this cat anyway???...


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