# VT-hitch users: beware!



## pdqdl (Apr 20, 2010)

Hot news from Sherrill !

The VT is not suitable for tree climber's use. It "should only be used for rigging duties not related to human life support". Who'da thought it?

http://www.sherrilltree.com/site/PKnots/Valdetain.html


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## tree md (Apr 20, 2010)

Hmm... Imagine that. This is the first I have heard of that. Every other text I have come across says that it's fine for life support.

I bet this puts a bug up a lot of folks butts...


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2010)

And I was just gonna start using it again!
I swear! I have been sticking with the old taughline/prussik and just today I went and bought a Hitchclimber pulley and was messing around in the basement with it. After about 5 minutes I actually was gonna see if anyone on here wanted to buy the dam thing!
But I got re-acquantied with the set-up. Yes, its easy for the adjacent knot for the other end of the rope to push the VT knot and not allow it to grab but I fingered it out and hooked it up.
They are not really giving any particular reasons why one should not use the VT. They just say its finicky and I guess a lot of the problems are due to people not setting it up properly.


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2010)

Well TreeCo has been using it for years, its hard to tell from looking at him but he ain't dead.


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## tree md (Apr 20, 2010)

Well Wesspur is still selling an HRC split tail and advertising it for use with the VT so I guess they haven't caught on yet.

Must be something new coming down the pike. I'd like to know who Sherrill got that advisory from. I was looking at their knot page about two days ago and did not see that warning on the VT so it is brand new.

I've been climbing on the VT for over a year now and don't plan on changing anytime soon unless Sherrill backs up that claim with an ANSI recommendation or someone other than a distributor advisory.


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## The Lawn Shark (Apr 20, 2010)

I've been using the vt for about a year now....and I like it but have noticed unless I use 4 wraps and 3 braids it'll slip.....4/3 is kinda of tight to advance climb line...everytime I try 4/2 or 3/3 it will slip on occasion...what I mean is that when I take my weight off climb line and pull the slack out, the hitch stays bunched up and don't want to re-grab the rope without having to mess with it...using beeline w/ arbormater blue or gold streak??????????
thinking of trying the distel


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## Bermie (Apr 20, 2010)

Could be because the VT is a more advanced hitch, certainly not one for a beginner. Getting it dialed in right, right hitch cord for the rope you use, you weight, # of coils/wraps...maybe a case of CYA in case some newbie gets it wrong and goes for a ride to the basement!??

I've been on mine for two years...love it.


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## tr33thri11s (Apr 20, 2010)

*not new news*

If you look at the older product catalogs this has been put out for quite awhile. As most of us know, alot of hitches and knots were developed long ago for quite different uses. And even of late, knots have been developed to work in our industry for different purposes. Low and slow is a great way to be sure certain knots will work with an individuals techniques. Happy and safe climbing to you all!


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## tree md (Apr 20, 2010)

Could be a case of CYA, I have read warnings that it is an advanced hitch from different sources for some time now. This is the first I have ever heard of anyone flatout saying that it is not safe for life support.

My guess is that Sherrill has got their info from some other authority with the talk of the knot possibly inverting. We'll just have to wait and see.

As far as I'm concerned the knot is superb.

Lawn Shark, it took me a little while to get mine dialed in too. I tried different combos of coils/braids and ended up coming back to 4:2. I think getting my eye to eye dialed in to the correct length had a lot to do with getting it to bite well. Also, I think the HRC I am using needed to break in a little before it started biting really good as well. I am using the HRC on Poison Ivy and it works great.


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## Nailsbeats (Apr 20, 2010)

I climb on a VT, but it isn't the safest hitch out there. You must set it once it's been fully compressed and slacked most of the time.
It's old news.


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## beastmaster (Apr 21, 2010)

Its not a knot for unexperienced climbers. It is finicky. It does have to be dialed in. That being said I've been using it for a year and its my knot of choice for my climbing system. Its not very forgiving of mistakes. Maybe some noob bit the big one or something. I'll continue to use it. Hopefully ansi won't ban it or restrict it for life support.


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## Bermie (Apr 21, 2010)

Ha...the joy of working in an unregulated environment...sometimes!
I like my VT and ain't nobody around here can say I can't use it!


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Ha...the joy of working in an unregulated environment...sometimes!
> I like my VT and ain't nobody around here can say I can't use it!



I'm booking my flight tonight... one way, hope ya got enough work for me cause if I get bored I will probably start to annoy you, Hell, I might annoy you anyway. DO you have a comfy couch? Cable?


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## Bermie (Apr 21, 2010)

One way ticket, immigration will kick your ass back to the mainland...unless you can prove someone will vouch for you and pay your way...I'm broke and got no cable so your chances are slim...only work is tiddler trees with 4" leaders, you big fat boys can't handle the tree top tip toe...!


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

Bermie said:


> One way ticket, immigration will kick your ass back to the mainland...unless you can prove someone will vouch for you and pay your way...I'm broke and got no cable so your chances are slim...only work is tiddler trees with 4" leaders, you big fat boys can't handle the tree top tip toe...!



You know, that is a funny way to say " come on over". Anyway I am all over the tips.


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## Climb020 (Apr 21, 2010)

Least it doesn't say anything about the XT (VT variation) so gonna keep that one in the bag. Though don't understand what they are saying being everyone I know finds the old school tauntline to slip/creep more then anything else but nothing is ever said about that.


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## frashdog (Apr 21, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Hot news from Sherrill !
> 
> The VT is not suitable for tree climber's use. It "should only be used for rigging duties not related to human life support". Who'da thought it?
> 
> http://www.sherrilltree.com/site/PKnots/Valdetain.html



Of cour$e!
Tho$e knot$ are $o archaic. 
$tep it up to the new billet $uper jobbie$.
Cachingaling knot$ don't pay $herrill$ bill$ yo!
Oh yea Be $afe!


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## frashdog (Apr 21, 2010)

frashdog said:


> Of cour$e!
> Tho$e knot$ are $o archaic.
> $tep it up to the new billet $uper jobbie$.
> Cachingaling knot$ don't pay $herrill$ bill$ yo!
> Oh yea Be $afe!



Uh Oh
Actually maybe someone died cause of the knot then how would I feel about it? You know what they say abut OSHA's regs, "written in blood" that means some one probably died or was severely disfigured or even dismembered. Imagine your "member" being "dised"???


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

frashdog said:


> Uh Oh
> Actually maybe someone died cause of the knot then how would I feel about it? You know what they say abut OSHA's regs, "written in blood" that means some one probably died or was severely disfigured or even dismembered. Imagine your "member" being "dised"???



I think they should just come right out and say it, be honest about the whole thing... tree work is not recomended for life support.


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

But I didn't have a problem with today. First time in a long time since I used it. Sure once or twice it didn't grab right off, the scaffold knot pushed it down. Uhh, no ####, any friction hitch out there needs to be watched... REAL GOOD. That's the gig.


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## ozzy42 (Apr 21, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I think they should just come right out and say it, be honest about the whole thing... tree work is not recomended for life support.



:agree2:


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

Also I would say the VT is one of the most confusing friction hitches out there so that in itself would lead to people having problems which would lead to bad things being said about it. Tied right ( and its easy to tie wrong) the thing is fine.


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## treemandan (Apr 21, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> :agree2:



Thank you Thank you. My best one yet I believe... think about it a while longer.


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## mattfr12 (Apr 21, 2010)

when i worked for bartlett we where not allowed to climb on the VT. the company considered it unsafe. distel all the way for me


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## Nailsbeats (Apr 21, 2010)

I think it has to do with the way the braids open up when slack. A stick or something could wedge in there and you'd be going for a ride. That of course is also the genius of the hitch, slacks easily for self tending. Also, the hitch only works when weighted one direction unlike a true prussic. 

The XT variation helps keep the braids together.


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## Nailsbeats (Apr 21, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Thank you Thank you. My best one yet I believe... think about it a while longer.



That was outstanding Dan, made my day. I'll probably borrow it.


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## The Lawn Shark (Apr 21, 2010)

maybe a dumb ? but whats the The XT variation


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## 2FatGuys (Apr 22, 2010)

Bermie said:


> ...only work is tiddler trees with 4" leaders, you big fat boys can't handle the tree top tip toe...!



Hey now! I resemble that remark!


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## 2FatGuys (Apr 22, 2010)

treemandan said:


> ... tree work is not recomended for life support.



Really? Such an obvious, but brilliant, statement!


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## tree MDS (Apr 22, 2010)

Ahh yes.. the "suicide knot", as a friend calls it.

Tends nicely though. Just keep an eye on it... it is french - and we know the deal there!


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## pdqdl (Apr 22, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Also I would say the VT is one of the most confusing friction hitches out there so that in itself would lead to people having problems which would lead to bad things being said about it. Tied right ( and its easy to tie wrong) the thing is fine.



I disagree! A blakes hitch is more confusing to tie, and the tail can easily be inserted in the wrong spot.

To get a servicable VT, all you need to do is keep making wraps around the climbing line. [It might not work out the way you want, but it will hold]


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## Job Corps Tree (Apr 22, 2010)

*VT Hitch users bewear*

It is so good to see how Far we have gone since the Taut line hitch a lot of us were shown as the only way to do it. I looked at this VT when it had other names. I did not care for it.
But wow we have so many to pick from now some are good some not so good
this is great!
We have a Choice and like tools the right one for each job


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## Bermie (Apr 22, 2010)

treemandan said:


> You know, that is a funny way to say " come on over". Anyway I am all over the tips.





2FatGuys said:


> Hey now! I resemble that remark!



Glad you guys can take a joke!!! Honestly today I was about 5' off the ground thinning a Pittosporum...next week bucket baby, then back to the 60' ers!

VT all the way...never had a stick or anything get into it...you just have to make keeping and eye on all your attachments an instinctive part of how you work...then barring an absolute disaster...what works for you will keep you in the air!


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## treemandan (Apr 22, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Ahh yes.. the "suicide knot", as a friend calls it.
> 
> Tends nicely though. Just keep an eye on it... it is french - and we know the deal there!



Ya know, I think you may have something there. Now I'm scared.


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## 2FatGuys (Apr 23, 2010)

Bermie said:


> ...you just have to make keeping and eye on all your attachments an instinctive part of how you work...then barring an absolute disaster...what works for you will keep you in the air!



This should be standard practice for any REAL climber anyways!


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## treevet (Apr 24, 2010)

You would think they would go after the hitch climber or the term or the practice of slack tending thru a pulley. Any hitch that is "tended" this way has the propensity to loosen and when you sit back it may not engage.

Tree climbing is based successfully so much on experience and "feel".

Furthermore so much of all we do (successfully) is based on "conditioned response" and intuitive impulses that will alarm us that "something is not right".


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## treesquirrel (Apr 24, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Could be because the VT is a more advanced hitch, certainly not one for a beginner. Getting it dialed in right, right hitch cord for the rope you use, you weight, # of coils/wraps...maybe a case of CYA in case some newbie gets it wrong and goes for a ride to the basement!??
> 
> I've been on mine for two years...love it.



I suspect this is a CYA on sherrills part to avoid liability for indirectly recommending its use where a inexperienced beginner might get hurt or killed.

Me, I have never used it and am perfectly happy with a Schwabish or prussic for my work.


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## Tobe (Apr 27, 2010)

Guys,
Just got a report on this web based knot tip a few weeks ago from Mahk Adams and haven't had a chance to edit it yet. 

I personally wrote the copy several years ago, like early 2000 when the VT was scarcely used or trusted and haven't paid it the deserved attention on our knot page. 

I also noticed that some where in the interim a web editor blended the VT and MT graphic without appropriate corresponding text such that viewers see unwoven coils (MT) next to woven coils (VT) without getting the story. Duh.

Thanks for not crucifying SherrillTree for MY mistake. I promise it will be repaired soon ...oh, and a few other knots in need of attention.

Peace


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## 2FatGuys (Apr 27, 2010)

Tobe said:


> Guys,
> Just got a report on this web based knot tip a few weeks ago from Mahk Adams and haven't had a chance to edit it yet.
> 
> I personally wrote the copy several years ago, like early 2000 when the VT was scarcely used or trusted and haven't paid it the deserved attention on our knot page.
> ...



Tobe - - - Thanks for clearing it up! You guys are great at follow through.

FYI - In the interest of site support, another AS member is starting a cool idea (http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=134452). If you'd like to participate, I'll be glad to drive the helmet to you (or to Brian at Vermeer) for local site members to sign...

(Sorry for the thread hijack..)


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