# Why Run a .404 Chain?



## Josh A. (Nov 17, 2010)

I hear a lot of talk about .404 chains for the big saws. I have a 084 that currently has a 3/8" sprocket and bar on it. What would the advantage of running the bigger chain be? The 3/8" should pull easier, if you look at it from a physics standpoint. It is cheaper, and a heck of a lot easier to find. In milling applications it would take less material away. I am sure there are good reasons to use the .404, but I do not have enough experience with the larger displacement/bar chainsaws to know why. 

Thanks in advance.


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## pops21 (Nov 17, 2010)

.404 is a tougher condition chain that take more abuse then 3/8's. In big wood it is also a tad faster then 3/8's. In smaller wood its a tad slower then 3'8's. .404 is also a stronger chain. It can handle high HP and torque without stretchin as bad or breaking. Thats why alot of the west coast fallers run them. They still have ALOT of big wood.


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## Josh A. (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks for the insight Pops! Knew there were advantages. Now, on to ponder something else...


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## Trigger-Time (Nov 17, 2010)

As far as I know from Stihl you can only buy .404 bars for MS880.
Unless you get a hard nose bar or buy .404 bar and change the
tip sprocket your self to what pitch you want.



TT


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## Winn R (Nov 17, 2010)

And then of course there are fewer of them to sharpen. A 36" seems to take forever anyway!


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## spacemule (Nov 17, 2010)

pops21 said:


> In big wood it is also a tad faster then 3/8's. In smaller wood its a tad slower then 3'8's.



Why's that? Chip clearance maybe?


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## pops21 (Nov 17, 2010)

spacemule said:


> Why's that? Chip clearance maybe?



Not really sure. I'm just stating info that I have gathered around AS over the years.


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## Modifiedmark (Nov 17, 2010)

pops21 said:


> Not really sure. I'm just stating info that I have gathered around AS over the years.



No offense meant at all, but that is info that you should divulge when answering questions. 

You made it sound like it was from experiance which don't appear to be the case. 

Your probably pretty much right on though, but you forgot to mention the extra power needed to pull .404.


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## holshot14 (Nov 17, 2010)

We use .404 chain on our rescue saws. MS460 (R)


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## rwoods (Nov 17, 2010)

I too have been left wondering after reading many posts on this site stating that .404 cuts quicker on big saws in big wood without any explanation. Assuming these statements to be true, the only theoretical conclusion I can arrive at (other than there is some design dynamic about .404 that is more efficient than .375 such as better chip removal or less overall friction due to fewer links) is the larger saws must have enough power that the chain size doesn't significantly effect the saw's WOT rpms thus with the same toothed sprocket the .404 has a faster chain speed resulting in a quicker cut. A little math shows the .404 should be 7.7 % faster if everything else is equal (.404/.375). True or not, I plan to put .404 on my newly acquired SP125C once I locate a nice long bar for it. Ron


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## pioneerguy600 (Nov 17, 2010)

We have always run .404 chisel chain on saws over 85cc , the cutters are bigger and outlast 3/8" chain a lot longer, don`t have to sharpen it as often as 3/8" and it does seem to cut faster with big engined saws. I have not timed the cuts but just by the feel of it as the bar drops when a high torque saw is self feeding in big hardwood it would seem the .404 is cutting faster and pulling chips more freely.
Pioneerguy600


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## Scooterbum (Nov 17, 2010)

I run 404 on everything 90cc and up.
I did compare it once with 3/8's on an 066 flatop.
Didn't have a stop watch but according to my mississippi counter it was faster.
Will take more abuse and less teeth to sharpin.:biggrinbounce2:


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## hoss (Nov 18, 2010)

I tried to run some 3/8 chain on a 2100 homelite I have with a rim drive just to see. It seemed a bit slower, but not much. Anyway I had no real cpmplaints till about an hour before quittin time when the chain let go and snapped. The bar was a 36" roller nose. The trees were mostly hardwoods ranging from about 24"-40". I'm not sayin this will always happen with 3/8 on a real big saw, but it has never happened to me with .404. I kinda always had the impression too that on the 6 cube and up saws that .404 seemed a little faster, but I don't have any recorded times, just seat of the pants feel to go on.


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## Oldsawnut (Nov 18, 2010)

404 also seems to last forever.. Both in how long it stays sharp and how many times you can sharpen it.. Much bigger tooth...


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## FrankHgh (Nov 18, 2010)

*404 vs 3/8*

i have 404 full comp on my 056. 54mm cyl-piston, and compared to my 066 w/54mm cyl-piston with 3/8 semi skip, and by far the 404 is faster, both are square ground.

hope this helps. i use oregon chain


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## BobL (Nov 18, 2010)

rwoods said:


> . . . . A little math shows the .404 should be 7.7 % faster if everything else is equal (.404/.375).



A little math can be a dangerous thing. All you have taken into account is the fewer number of cutters. 404 cutters are also a little wider (7% as it so happens) so these cancel each other out. (see here for a post on real kerf sizes)

I'm not convinced its faster but if it is probably has something to do with better big chip clearance.


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## Phil_C (Nov 18, 2010)

Trigger-Time said:


> As far as I know from Stihl you can only buy .404 bars for MS880.
> Unless you get a hard nose bar or buy .404 bar and change the
> tip sprocket your self to what pitch you want.
> TT



Not according to the Chains, Bars and Accessories catalog. There are 4 different bar lengths in Rollomatic ES available with the 3003 mount which suits the 064-MS660 series. 3003 mounts fit smaller saws as well but Stihl don't recommend using it on them.

We used to use 404 on anything that requires a wider cut. On the bigger hardwood trees we used to have to ring bark the tree before falling it if we used 3/8 chain but with 404 we did not need to ring bark the tree. The old 051 would handle the 404 chain with ease but the 056 would struggle.

Regards

Phil


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## MCW (Nov 18, 2010)

Phil_C said:


> There are 4 different bar lengths in Rollomatic ES available with the 3003 mount which suits the 064-*MS660* series.
> Regards
> 
> Phil



Me thinks you boo booed? Sure you didn't mean MS880? MS660 and MS880 have different mounts.
MS660 takes the standard Stihl 12mm slot bar, the MS880 takes the 14mm bar 

But anyway, .404" in my book and experience has a number of advantages over 3/8". Loggers that fell Stringybark for example favour .404" due to the wider kerf and less bark getting jammed. On long bars .404" clears chips better. The second I converted a 42" Oregon Power Match Plus from .404" to 3/8" it started having all sorts of chip clearance and jamming problems in certain types of wood. This isn't noticed when milling however due to the direction of the grain cut (smaller chips) and this same 42" bar works a treat when milling with 3/8", cross cutting in some wood it's a pig with some nasty kickback tendencies from the 3120 when the chips jam it up in the cut.
Even on shorter bars I believe it has the wood on 3/8", *providing* your saw has the nuts to pull it swiftly and it has been set up correctly. When you take into account how much longer the chain stays sharp, *plus* how much longer the cutters can be used before the chain gets thrown away and it becomes far more appealing.
I ran a 20" .404" .063" Tsumura with semi chisel on my modded 7900's for a while and I was a big fan. Unfortunately I had to come to terms with the vast array of chains hanging in my shed and my failing memory as to just which saw and bar they belonged to  I swapped the tip to 3/8" once that one loop of .404" wore out as I already had a swag of 72DL 3/8" .063" chains there to use. No regrets and the guys flaming anybody that uses .404" should remember that cutting cants and racing is far different to felling or firewood cutting in the field.


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## pops21 (Nov 18, 2010)

Modifiedmark said:


> No offense meant at all, but that is info that you should divulge when answering questions.
> 
> You made it sound like it was from experiance which don't appear to be the case.
> 
> Your probably pretty much right on though, but you forgot to mention the extra power needed to pull .404.




Yeah I didn't think about saying I had no hands on experience. I've been thinking about trying some .404. Just havent pulled the trigger. I've done tons of research.


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## Phil_C (Nov 18, 2010)

MCW said:


> Me thinks you boo booed? Sure you didn't mean MS880? MS660 and MS880 have different mounts.
> MS660 takes the standard Stihl 12mm slot bar, the MS880 takes the 14mm bar



No error on my part. Poster said the only rollomatics available were to suit the MS880 which takes a 3002 mount. I pointed out that there are 3003 mount rollomatic ES 404's available which suits saws up to an MS660.

Regards

Phil


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## MCW (Nov 18, 2010)

Phil_C said:


> No error on my part. Poster said the only rollomatics available were to suit the MS880 which takes a 3002 mount. I pointed out that there are 3003 mount rollomatic ES 404's available which suits saws up to an MS660.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Phil



Sorry mate. I've re read it and must be reading it differently to you. The poster said that only .404" bars were available from Stihl to suit the MS880 and you mentioned 3003 mount bars that are available in .404" which don't fit the MS880?
No argument mate just a bit of confusion at my end 

EDIT: I think I know where we're confused. You're reading it as the only .404" bars made by Stihl are to suit the MS880. I'm reading it that only .404" bars are available from Stihl to suit the MS880. Hope that makes sense. I think the poster meant that the only sprocket nosed bars available from Stihl to suit the MS880 are in .404"


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## Phil_C (Nov 18, 2010)

MCW said:


> I think the poster meant that the only sprocket nosed bars available from Stihl to suit the MS880 are in .404"



I don't read his post that way, sorry and there is a Rollomatic ES bar available to suit the MS880 in 3/8



> You're reading it as the only .404" bars made by Stihl are to suit the MS880.


That is correct. I am reading his post that way provided we are talking about Rollomatics

Either way no animosity is intended towards yourself

Regards

Phil


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## Josh A. (Nov 18, 2010)

I think rwoods is on to it. The faster chain speed according to the mathematics means more teeth in the wood. And, the big saws havd the power to offset the larger width of the teeth. Just like putting 35" tires on a Toyota verses my Powerstroke. No knock on Toyota pickups.


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## MCW (Nov 18, 2010)

Phil_C said:


> I don't read his post that way, sorry and there is a Rollomatic ES bar available to suit the MS880 in 3/8



I know, a mate ran one on his 880 and I've seen an 880 in a Stihl shop with one on it getting serviced 



Phil_C said:


> That is correct. I am reading his post that way provided we are talking about Rollomatics
> 
> Either way no animosity is intended towards yourself
> 
> ...



No worries mate  I'm not familiar with Stihl bar mount codes and every other bar manufacturer that I've got specs on make 3/8" bars in that mount.


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## mdavlee (Nov 18, 2010)

If you want to try out .404 sized cutters oregon has the durapro chain in square ground that has bigger cutters like .404 but on a 3/8s chassis. I've got some for the 32" bar I run on the 390. It did seem to pull the engine down a little more with it but cut the same speed. Here's a picture of the chips off of the durapro and stihl rsk, and oregon ck.


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## Trigger-Time (Nov 18, 2010)

Trigger-Time said:


> As far as I know *from Stihl you can only buy .404 bars for MS880.*Unless you get a hard nose bar or buy .404 bar and change the
> tip sprocket your self to what pitch you want.
> 
> 
> ...





Phil_C said:


> Not according to the Chains, Bars and Accessories catalog. There are 4 different bar lengths in Rollomatic ES available with the 3003 mount which suits the 064-MS660 series. 3003 mounts fit smaller saws as well but Stihl don't recommend using it on them.
> 
> We used to use 404 on anything that requires a wider cut. On the bigger hardwood trees we used to have to ring bark the tree before falling it if we used 3/8 chain but with 404 we did not need to ring bark the tree. The old 051 would handle the 404 chain with ease but the 056 would struggle.
> 
> ...



Am only talking 3002 bar mounts.........051,075,880,090 and such.

Yes I know you can get 404 in 3003 mounts but can not get .375 3002 mounts.

Which I thought I had written as plan as day.........guess not 


TT


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## Tzed250 (Nov 18, 2010)

3005 is for the little saws...


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## Trigger-Time (Nov 18, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> 3005 is for the little saws...




Yes it is, I made a mistake, 


Should be 3002 


Thanks,
TT


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## Asawbum (Dec 28, 2019)

I am a logger in CA. I am the only person I know that runs .404 I got lucky and got to try it for free. My buddy's dad has a bunch of it still hanging around from a Bailey's mess up and my buddy doesn't use it. Lucky me. 
So I have to say this... In the morning yeah it takes more to pull it but at the end of the day it is sure doesn't. I prefer 3/8 full comp (all this is aggressive square file,) as it limbs way the best. The .404 skip sure is quick to file out at the end of the day and the teeth don't get as beat up like 3/8 skip. I saw a Redbull 661 test the other day that backs this up. My bars are junk ass old Windsors for the .404


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## Huskybill (Dec 28, 2019)

I learned by setting up my 2100 for speed cutting at the local fairs were the local loggers compete for fun.

On my 2100, add 16” bar with 404/050” chain, change the sprocket nose to 404”, i hogged out the gullet, sharpen with a 7/32” file n guide the top of the tooth only. Add a 8 tooth rim, plug the governor. Since the fairs were two weeks apart I took the saw set up for the fair in the woods. I had many 12”/15” diameter tall oak trees to cut. The 2100 destroyed all of them. I set the rakers at .050”.

The 2100’s back then came with 24’/404” bars and chain. I was judging how many 3/8” vs 404” chain loops it took per season. I used them as equally as I could. It was on average 2 to 3 loops of 3/8” chain to one loop of 404” chain. The 404” lasted longer as long as I didn’t hit anything.
The 100 cc saw would pull a dull 404” chain in hardwood.


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## Oldsawnut (Dec 28, 2019)

Huskybill said:


> The 2100’s back then came with 24’/404” bars and chain. I was judging how many 3/8” vs 404” chain loops it took per season. I used them as equally as I could. It was on average 2 to 3 loops of 3/8” chain to one loop of 404” chain. The 404” lasted longer as long as I didn’t hit anything.
> The 100 cc saw would pull a dull 404” chain in hardwood.



I gave a shorter version of this 9 years ago in this same thread


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## Huskybill (Dec 28, 2019)

I purchased 3/8” sprocket nose Oregon .063” d009 mount bars with replacement noses so I can change them to sprocket 404 noses. I also purchased the non sprocket nose bars in .063” too. My bigger saws 80 cc and up will use full chisel 404”/.063” shorter bars while the longer bars on the bigger cc saws will run full chisel skip or semi chisel chains. These will out last my lifetime but my sons won’t need nothing. I’m stocking it up for them.


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## Huskybill (Dec 28, 2019)

Asawbum said:


> I am a logger in CA. I am the only person I know that runs .404 I got lucky and got to try it for free. My buddy's dad has a bunch of it still hanging around from a Bailey's mess up and my buddy doesn't use it. Lucky me.
> So I have to say this... In the morning yeah it takes more to pull it but at the end of the day it is sure doesn't. I prefer 3/8 full comp (all this is aggressive square file,) as it limbs way the best. The .404 skip sure is quick to file out at the end of the day and the teeth don't get as beat up like 3/8 skip. I saw a Redbull 661 test the other day that backs this up. My bars are junk ass old Windsors for the .404



I just purchased two 100ft rolls of raisman 404”/.063” semi chisel chain for $149 each with shipping. They list for $500+ for 100 ft. I also purchased the huztl 404”/.063 in 25’ rolls for $25 each. For the cost of the 404” saw chain plus the change over to the .063” bars in the long run it will pay off.


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