# What to start with



## Thayne Teichmer (Apr 27, 2017)

Good evening all.

I'm needing a little bit of help here. 

I just ordered a MS 661 should be here in a week. I have a 48 in Alaskan Mill. What should I get for a bar and what chain??????? 

I got a power head only because the dealership said I couldn't get a 48 in bar. 

This saw will only be on the mill. 

I milled a little bit with way too small of a saw but now I want to buy once cry once.


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## Bedford T (Apr 27, 2017)

Cannon has some nice long bars. Cannon bars are the best, Stihl bars are excellent. I recently got mill and a big saw and had heck of a time deciding on bar length. There seems to be no published formula on what to buy. The 660 manual suggests 36" even a larger 070 was only a 35".


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## BlackCoffin (Apr 27, 2017)

I run a 28" mainly on my 660 for milling but will also run a 36" if I have to. Now that I have an 880 anything larger than 28" I use it. While a little slower the 660 will pull a larger bar fine. If you plan on doing a lot of large cutting I'd upgrade in the future or look into double powerhead setup.


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## Thayne Teichmer (Apr 27, 2017)

A little foot note on this.

Why I bought the 48 in Alaskan Mill was I have 1 storm damaged/ blown over tree that is 41 inches. 

I want to make a table out of this tree because it was in my front yard and my kids played in on and around it. 

Most of the stuff I will mill will be in the 20 on range.

All that being said. I Know nothing about milling lumber. And the same about chainsaw chain. I'm not wanting to learn by making the mistakes. 

So that is why I ask what I should be buying. 

A year ago when I started into this I picked up a MS 362 because it was the biggest thing on the dealer shelf. 60 CC ya baby. Great fire wood saw milling saw NO.

Was able to sell that saw for a ok price.
Now I'm setting up this 661.


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## BlackCoffin (Apr 27, 2017)

If you have the horsepower to pull it full comp chain lets you get many more cuts between sharpenings. I have yet to run milling chain but the little milling I do the skip tooth chain works fine. I'm still building up my chain supply, then I'll dedicate some to milling and start regrinding them and finding the seeet spot with angles and degrees and whatnot. A lot of this stuff is time and experience regardless of the info you'll receive.


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

A few of us are considering trying a roll of this chain. Learning costs and to start making it affordable is Paramount.
http://www.huztl.net/25FT-Roll-Saw-...hed-Connecting-links-and-6-Boxes-p228089.html


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## mdavlee (Apr 28, 2017)

50" cannon is about the only option. 154 or 156 DL of full skip square is what I would start with

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

thats a lot to start with. that bar is 350 and each loop will cost about 80$, 3-5 loops used a day. the OP is using a 661. I am new to the game but that is too long for the saw. we all need some 090 or 880 and if we had trees big enough a 50" would be sweet


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## Thayne Teichmer (Apr 28, 2017)

Is full skip what I want??? Less cutters in the cut. Will that be more aggressive??? Or less???


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## Thayne Teichmer (Apr 28, 2017)

Why 404 vers 3/8 pitch?? 

Saw will be in on Monday so I have to get moving. I have a 20 inch 0.50 3/8 bar and chain to match and a sprocket that will fit the saw. So I can at least cut with it because you have to correct?

Dealer couldn't tell what sprocket even was coming on the saw.

Life was simpler before I found CSM.


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## Bedford T (Apr 28, 2017)

404 I am told stays sharper longer. On the 661 you might be best to stay with 3/8. To me milling is different and seems to change normal


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## SeMoTony (Apr 29, 2017)

mdavlee said:


> 50" cannon is about the only option. 154 or 156 DL of full skip square is what I would start with
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


In my experience square chisel skip cuts & clears chips better. Bobl indicates steady feed with consistent angle of cut makes for smoother cut surface. Learning to keep chisel cutters sharp w/file can be a challenge. My ms-460 came with 3/8" .063, so it is run on my other saws, in my avatar is 60 inch cannon bar spinning square chisel skip. It is a matter of feeding wood to the cutters at a rate the saw lives with- no bog. If you are close enough I might be convinced to loan the 50" cannon w/ couple chains for you to slice the tables from your log, since you think any more milling wil be narrower. Working up a frame for 72 inch dual power cannon miller bar just now, about 213 DL per cannon.
NE No Dakota is in my reach if I can catch train lol These old bones drive poorly comped w/a decade ago


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## mdavlee (Apr 30, 2017)

Bedford T said:


> thats a lot to start with. that bar is 350 and each loop will cost about 80$, 3-5 loops used a day. the OP is using a 661. I am new to the game but that is too long for the saw. we all need some 090 or 880 and if we had trees big enough a 50" would be sweet



50" skip I've run on a 660, 661, 385, 390, and 394. I wouldn't go full comp. A 395 will pull it better but a 661 was 2nd best and oils better than a 660. Buying a 88 is another $500 and a huge step to mill something like that once and then switch to smaller stuff. 

Loops from Madsens or loggerchain.com will be cheaper than $80 each. Madsen is buy one get one at around $.42-44 a drive link of 3/8". I square file on the mill after every other cut or every cut if needed.


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## Bedford T (Apr 30, 2017)

Madsen only charges 2.50 a loop off a reel. I buy from frawleys.


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## IyaMan (Apr 30, 2017)

Thayne Teichmer said:


> Why I bought the 48 in Alaskan Mill was I have 1 storm damaged/ blown over tree that is 41 inches...
> 
> Most of the stuff I will mill will be in the 20 on range.



If 41" is the maximum width then you do not need a bar that will get through this unless you wish to have live edges on your table with this maximum width (that is, edges that are not squared but instead retain the edge of the tree.)

If you trim the sides to square off the log, then cut boards/slabs from this, then you'll be able to use a 36" bar for everything. 

If you'll rarely if ever plan to encounter such a wide tree again, then having a shorter than 50" bar would be much easier to handle and be easier for your saw to pull. Such a big bar would be unnecessarily cumbersome when only cutting in the 20" range, and you'll eventually end up wanting to buy a shorter bar/chain while the big 50" sits and collects dust. You can also use more common type of chain on a 36" bar that won't cost nearly as much nor be as hard to find.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 30, 2017)

If running a long bar .404 oils better than 3/8


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## BobL (Apr 30, 2017)

If the log is 41" the max cut width needed to generate a square cant is indeed in theory ~29" but in practice is somewhat less than this when using an alaskan with conventional bar clamps and that's because the clamps themselves get in the way of sides of the log. The maximum diameter of a log that can be thus tackled in this way is about 2" less that the cut width. This also leaves the clamps jamming up against the side of the room and I've found it really pays to leave at least couple of inches of wiggle room (especially on Aussie trees) to take care of lumps and bumps in the sides of logs.

One way to increase this is to do away with the bar clamps and bolt the bar to the mill or, build a mill that connect the mill to the bar bolts.


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## IyaMan (Apr 30, 2017)

BobL said:


> If the log is 41" the max cut width needed to generate a square cant is indeed in theory ~29" but in practice is somewhat less than this when using an alaskan with conventional bar clamps and that's because the clamps themselves get in the way of sides of the log. The maximum diameter of a log that can be thus tackled in this way is about 2" less that the cut width.




True. Though I thought that with a 36" bar he'd get about 32" of cutting width, so the clamps should just about clear the edges.


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## BlackCoffin (Apr 30, 2017)

You can get close to 32" with removing the felling spikes with a 36" bar. My 41" bar I maxed out my 36" granberg at 32". Just upgraded to a 56" extension set and have plans for a 60" bar eventually.


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## Garrit (May 1, 2017)

Congrats on your new saw purchase! Lucky dog!! If you are milling on your own property then you could get away with one chain. I'm running a standard chain sharpened to 10 degrees. Most long bars like that are not used much, so a used one might be an option? 

Good luck!


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## Thayne Teichmer (May 1, 2017)

For the time I found a 36 in bar. So it begins. Hopefully the saw shows up at the dealership today .


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## IyaMan (May 1, 2017)

Thayne Teichmer said:


> For the time I found a 36 in bar. So it begins. Hopefully the saw shows up at the dealership today .



You may want to run the saw for a bit before going full on with milling. Maybe 5 or 10 tanks of bucking and whatnot (though there are different philosophies on break in period, so maybe others have better advice for this saw).
Otherwise, Happy Milling!


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## Thayne Teichmer (May 1, 2017)

Well bad news. 
Saw will not start.
Dealership said it would be a few days till they will get to it. There backed up. 
I didn't even get to hold it.

Also was wondering about the break in on the saw. What do you need to do? 

What about the mix for the gas?

I have not looked at the manual yet but wanted some input from all of you.

The dealership never sold a saw of this size before and the mtronic is not something they have delt with much.

So I wait and after all the bad news I hope that it turns out well.


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## IyaMan (May 2, 2017)

Thayne Teichmer said:


> Also was wondering about the break in on the saw. What do you need to do?



Regarding the running of the basic saw itself, it may be better to post questions like this in the Chainsaw forum, not Milling.



Thayne Teichmer said:


> What about the mix for the gas?



Once up and running for milling applications, people will probably say that anywhere from a 32:1 up to 50:1 mix is best. But I don't run a Stihl and do not know the Mtronic, so don't take it from me. Let others advise.


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## BlackCoffin (May 2, 2017)

I run the the Stihl synthetic oil and ethanol free fuel on all my saws 50:1 mix with zero issues from milling to bucking and everything in between.


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## Thayne Teichmer (Jun 1, 2017)

Time for an update.

Finally got my MS661. She runs great and although I have only cut 2 passes through a 30 some in log I'm very impressed.

With the 36 inch bar and a full comp chain bar buried she didn't even bog. Granted I was not pushing it at all.

Pulled the muffler and will get the outlet enlarged tomorrow.

Further updates as time goes by.


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## SeMoTony (Jun 2, 2017)

Thayne Teichmer said:


> Time for an update.
> 
> Finally got my MS661. She runs great and although I have only cut 2 passes through a 30 some in log I'm very impressed.
> 
> ...


I don't have a pic now, but my 661 came with the exhaust ported (that is what I can see) and the can empty. I've since drilled a lot of 1/8" holes in the cover (just like a screen only different) at the angled corners to direct flow same way as hole in muffler. Not louder under helmet w/muffs & din't hurt running a 42" bar with 1/4" hole centered in sprocket tip.
I was told (by the reported porter) to run 1:32 in milling mix. I'm not exacting it may be 1:37 sometimes. I have not followed Snellerized advice that "661 likes a little more advance" yet since I've only run 6-7 tanks thru the saw and when the powerhead showed up there was no carbon at all in muffler. Now there is
Stay safe and enjoy the learning process


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## Bedford T (Jun 2, 2017)

I started using av100 gas this month, here forward. The airport makes it easy. Cash or credit. It has enough lead in it to where I feel like 40:1 is going to make my mixing easy between milling and cutting saws. Not having to keep 32:1 anymore. H1R stays suspended for me. I pulled my muffler on my 029 and replaced it with one I modded and the exhaust port was perfectly clean, that was 19.5 years on Stihl oil


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## coltree (Feb 1, 2018)

Bedford T said:


> I started using av100 gas this month, here forward. The airport makes it easy. Cash or credit. It has enough lead in it to where I feel like 40:1 is going to make my mixing easy between milling and cutting saws. Not having to keep 32:1 anymore. H1R stays suspended for me. I pulled my muffler on my 029 and replaced it with one I modded and the exhaust port was perfectly clean, that was 19.5 years on Stihl oil



With lead in it, aren't you inhaling lead fumes, unless you have a snorkel?


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## coltree (Feb 1, 2018)

Hey, I need 2 ms661 saws (primary and backup, canopy and stump cut) for crane climbing, and I also need to mill bigger wood (~45" diameter burl oak trunk). Any recommendations for a double ms661 powerhead setup? Is the bar length doubled to 64"? And where can I buy lots of hardwood ripping chain for cheap?


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## rarefish383 (Feb 3, 2018)

coltree said:


> With lead in it, aren't you inhaling lead fumes, unless you have a snorkel?


Don't want to start another oil/fuel thread. But, I have 100CC Homelites that are 40-45 years old that still run strong. Back in the day we ran Amoco two cycle oil (32:1) and Amoco High Test, White Gas, no lead. Now in those same saws I run Stihl Synthetic at 50:1, and they are still running strong. I started running the Stihl Synthetic when I bought my MS 290 about 10-15 years ago. I do have a source of ethanol free fuel close to my property in WV, but I usually use pump gas I get here in MD. AV gas maybe better but I've never tried it. I'm trying to get down to 10 saws and I like to run the same fuel in all of them, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 3, 2018)

I mill mostly Red and Chestnut Oak with my 36" 660. I use out of the box Stihl chain because I cut more firewood than I mill. That way the saw can do double duty without swapping chains, I don't think it will work the other way. With a little practice you can get a pretty smooth cut with out ripping chain, Joe.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 11, 2018)

rarefish383 said:


> I mill mostly Red and Chestnut Oak with my 36" 660. I use out of the box Stihl chain because I cut more firewood than I mill. That way the saw can do double duty without swapping chains, I don't think it will work the other way. With a little practice you can get a pretty smooth cut with out ripping chain, Joe.


Hey Joe.
Saw this post and was thinking about all the CSM stuff as I want to mill some Red Oak trees I'm felling on my property.
I have a Stihl 044 Magnum and a Stihl 28" bar and standard cross cut chain.
I am buying a 36" Granberg mill and want to ask you if I should buy a ripping chain or two (or what you would do for a couple of Red Oak logs)
I'll be reading the whole CSM milling section to make sure I'm knowledgeable on some key factors before I start, but just wanted to get another perspective on starting out CSMing.
I also have a large White Pine I may mill after the Oaks.
Tell me what you'd do.
Thanks,
~Stan


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## rarefish383 (Feb 11, 2018)

Stan, I hope I don't embarrass BobL, he's forgotten more than I will ever learn. So I would read the 101 stickey at the top of the page. But, as to what I do. Somewhere years ago I read where Bob said that a smooth cut was as much technique as chain. I milled some white pine on my hunting property in WV with Stihl chain and it worked well. Being lazy I never tried milling chain, didn't want to take the time to swap it. I've found that if you get one end of the log off the ground, and keep your path clear, so you can walk smoothly next to the log, you can get a nice cut. The other thing is try not to take a step and stop, and definitely don't rock the bar forward and back, both leave what I call chatter marks, where the chain is spinning but not cutting. I mill with the tip leading in the cut a little. I just bumped my old thread "Two Oak Mantles" to the top. Take a look at that. Those are 3" Red Oak slabs. I ran each side through my planer 3 times and all the saw marks are gone. I gave a friend an old Homelite C5 and he bought milling chain for it. The first cut he made was smoother than my cuts, I was a little impressed, but not enough to pay for milling chain. If I'm in the woods cutting firewood, and the saw is cutting sharp, then I switch to milling, I touch the chain up even though it was cutting good. Just because it cuts well cross cutting, doesn't mean it will mill well. That was my first big learning curve. I can buck many, many logs and not need to touch up a chain, as long as I stay out of the dirt. Milling Oak I need to touch up the chain every 3-4 slabs. Just remember that any extra movement of the bar in the cut is going to leave marks. Rocking back and forth, stopping and going. If you have to push real hard your chain is dull. The 044 is about the same size as my Homelite 924 and I have a 30" bar on it. You get the feel of the difference of dull, and just cutting slower, with a smaller saw. The 924 might cut a little slower than the 1050 or 660, but it's still throwing saw dust and I don't have to lean on it. If your leaning on the saw and it's not throwing saw dust, you need a touch up. Don't try to mill dirty logs, debark them if you have to. Be patient and practice. Get a new chain for your first cut, it will give you a base line of how it feels. If your just starting don't trust your skill at sharpening. If you mill the couple trees you have and like it, by all means try the milling chain. If I wasn't so cheap, and have so many other projects going, I would have tried it by now. Good luck, Joe.


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## BobL (Feb 11, 2018)

Smooth cut is mostly technique unless you strike a synchronisation of cut width, chains speed and cutting speed and this produces the well known washboard effect.
Because I'm lazy and a bit older than most CSMers, I also adopted techniques to minimise the physical effort required so use arms and shoulders less and use legs more. 
A remote lockable throttle is a real help. 
Sloping logs (even a little) reduces the need to push. 
Where possible I apply pressure on the wrap handle with my legs like this.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 13, 2018)

rarefish383 said:


> Stan, I hope I don't embarrass BobL, he's forgotten more than I will ever learn. So I would read the 101 stickey at the top of the page. But, as to what I do. Somewhere years ago I read where Bob said that a smooth cut was as much technique as chain. I milled some white pine on my hunting property in WV with Stihl chain and it worked well. Being lazy I never tried milling chain, didn't want to take the time to swap it. I've found that if you get one end of the log off the ground, and keep your path clear, so you can walk smoothly next to the log, you can get a nice cut. The other thing is try not to take a step and stop, and definitely don't rock the bar forward and back, both leave what I call chatter marks, where the chain is spinning but not cutting. I mill with the tip leading in the cut a little. I just bumped my old thread "Two Oak Mantles" to the top. Take a look at that. Those are 3" Red Oak slabs. I ran each side through my planer 3 times and all the saw marks are gone. I gave a friend an old Homelite C5 and he bought milling chain for it. The first cut he made was smoother than my cuts, I was a little impressed, but not enough to pay for milling chain. If I'm in the woods cutting firewood, and the saw is cutting sharp, then I switch to milling, I touch the chain up even though it was cutting good. Just because it cuts well cross cutting, doesn't mean it will mill well. That was my first big learning curve. I can buck many, many logs and not need to touch up a chain, as long as I stay out of the dirt. Milling Oak I need to touch up the chain every 3-4 slabs. Just remember that any extra movement of the bar in the cut is going to leave marks. Rocking back and forth, stopping and going. If you have to push real hard your chain is dull. The 044 is about the same size as my Homelite 924 and I have a 30" bar on it. You get the feel of the difference of dull, and just cutting slower, with a smaller saw. The 924 might cut a little slower than the 1050 or 660, but it's still throwing saw dust and I don't have to lean on it. If your leaning on the saw and it's not throwing saw dust, you need a touch up. Don't try to mill dirty logs, debark them if you have to. Be patient and practice. Get a new chain for your first cut, it will give you a base line of how it feels. If your just starting don't trust your skill at sharpening. If you mill the couple trees you have and like it, by all means try the milling chain. If I wasn't so cheap, and have so many other projects going, I would have tried it by now. Good luck, Joe.


Thanks so much Joe.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 13, 2018)

BobL said:


> Smooth cut is mostly technique unless you strike a synchronisation of cut width, chains speed and cutting speed and this produces the well known washboard effect.
> Because I'm lazy and a bit older than most CSMers, I also adopted techniques to minimise the physical effort required so use arms and shoulders less and use legs more.
> A remote lockable throttle is a real help.
> Sloping logs (even a little) reduces the need to push.
> ...


Thanks Bob


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## Marine5068 (Feb 13, 2018)

I'll fell the trees and may buy a couple loops of 28" milling chain before slabbing.
And I will definitely take lots of pics and maybe some video of my first attempts at CSM... because you know what we say on here, if no pics, it never really happened...lol.
Thanks again for your tips and help fellas. I appreciate your time and advice.


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