# Trailer brakes question??



## NYH1

My father and I built a 14x8 foot trailer for our ATV's. It has two 2,000 lbs axles. 18.5x8x8 inch tires, load range C, load capacity 940 lbs. 

Going by my tires I would say my total gross trailer weight is 3,760 lbs. The trailer weighs about 1,750 lbs. empty. That gives me 2,010 lbs. of cargo/payload capacity. Our ATV's weigh roughly 1,600 lbs. That puts my gross weight at 3,350 lbs. Please correct me if I am wrong. 

We want to go with electric brakes. My father and I both have factory tow packages on our trucks. Both have the wire set for the electric brake control box. 

Will 7 inch brakes fit under my 8 inch rims? Should I put brakes on both axles? 

Thanks!


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## Biker Dude

7" should fit but the best way to put brakes on is to figure out who built your axles and what model number they are. With that info a trailer supply store will be able to order the right brake system for your axles. I would wire both axles on the trailer for safety's sake. You never know when you might need to stop really quick.


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## KD57

Unless you have a really small truck, or using it on steep grades, why do you need brakes at that light of a weight? We generally don't even consider brakes until the GVW gets close to 7K. But BD is right, a trailer supply house can help you get the proper set-up, along w/ the proper controller.


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## gink595

I wouldn't brake both axles, one would be plenty. With that weight that you described I'm not sure I would even worry about trailer brakes. But if it makes you feel better about it go ahead but having both axles brake would be overkill.


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## valekbrothers

Post a pic of your axles and hubs........... If these are the "snowmobile trailer" style axles, I don't think you can get brake systems for them.
I may be wrong (I think it happened once) but I don't remember ever seeing a brake setup for those axle.
Good luck.

P.S. If you are hauling more weight than the tires are rated for, I would look at put higher load rated tires on also... IMO


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## NYH1

I have a Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4. It pulls and stops it great. I don't want to get into any legal trouble if something ever happens. We might go out of state once in a while too. I just want to be set up right. 

Both my axles have the square flanges on them for brake set up. I won't overload the tires. I don't think I can go with larger tires either. My tires are under the trailer like a snowmobile trailer. We built it like that so we could make it 8 foot wide.

Thanks again!


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## NYH1

I finally got through to the DMV. They said any trailer that weighs over 1,000 lbs. empty has to have brakes. Being that my trailer is for personal use, if I can stop completely in 30 feet going 20 MPH, I only need brakes on one axle. If I was using it commercially, I would be subject to the DOT. They require brakes on both axles. 

Now whether I can stop completely in 30 feet going 20 MPH is subject to be seen.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

*Going without trailer brakes is not worth the gamble.*

Towing a trailer without electric trailer brakes is Russian Roulette.

I used to own a small, single axle, Apache Solid State Tent Trailer equipped with electric brakes. It had 520-12, Load Range C, wheels and tires on it. The GVWR on it was 1,500#. The electric brakes on it made noticeable improvements in driver confidence and in stopping distance.

One day I was driving along without incident, when all of a sudden I had to make an emergency stop. The electric brakes on that little trailer saved my vehicle from going off the road and being wrecked and they saved my sanity.

Current models of electric brake controllers, such as the Tekonsha Prodigy, are a vast improvement over the brake controllers of a few years ago. The Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller automatically levels itself and automatically adjusts the gain (or amount of braking) to compensate for uphill and downhill driving.

Electric trailer brakes are a great backup for when you experience brake fading on your tow vehicle. Should your trailer have more than one axle, make sure that all axles on your trailer have electric brakes.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

*Where to find info on electric trailer brakes?*

The vast majority of trailer axles are manufactured by Hayes, Dexter and Fayette. Your 7" inch drums sound a lot like a Dexter. The mfr of your particular axle can provide technical advice on exactly what is needed for adding electric trailer brakes. Tekonsha also offers parts for electric trailer brakes. 

Hayes Axle, Inc./Al-Ko/Kober Corp. Full line axle and brake manufacturer.
http://www.hayesaxle.com/
http://www.al-kousa.com/

Dexter Axle
http://www.dexteraxle.com/

Tekonsha
http://www.tekonsha.com/product/default.asp
Tekonsha electric brake parts for 7" Dexter
http://www.tekonsha.com/product/parts.asp?cat=2170&titulo=Trailer Brake Parts#Dexter 7


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## ShoerFast

I am from the school that you don't need a lot of brakes on a 2 ton trailer, but also from the school that you don't get a lot of brakes on a 1/2 ton pick-me-up. 

Any trailer behind you and your need to add distance , you just can't stop as quickly. 

And here is a stamped in the pavement truth...

Never trust that the trailer brakes are going to work for you in an emergency situation. 

Test them offten, rolling to a stop on gravel is a good time to 'feel' for them, or going around a slight curve, test them on gravel to see if you can lock them up?

The ground is the first thing to fail, add an extra, but never drive like your trusting the trailer brakes.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

*I'm a little confused.*



ShoerFast said:


> I am from the school that you don't need a lot of brakes on a 2 ton trailer, but also from the school that you don't get a lot of brakes on a 1/2 ton pick-me-up.
> 
> Any trailer behind you and your need to add distance , you just can't stop as quickly.
> 
> And here is a stamped in the pavement truth...
> 
> Never trust that the trailer brakes are going to work for you in an emergency situation.
> 
> Test them offten, rolling to a stop on gravel is a good time to 'feel' for them, or going around a slight curve, test them on gravel to see if you can lock them up?
> 
> The ground is the first thing to fail, add an extra, but never drive like your trusting the trailer brakes.



It sounds like a few people could have attended the wrong school. Unlike them, I firmly believe in the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared".

Not being a felony reckless driving City Slicker from Los Angeles who careens thru red lights, who follows 4 inches from the vehicles in front of them, and who deliberately runs over pedestrians on sidewalks, I'm totally confused.

When did wimpy, lite-duty 1/2 tons equipped with wimpy axles and wimpy brakes actually qualify as trucks?

Have you ever driven a vehicle-trailer rig up and down steep mountain grades while smelling the overheated brakes of fully-loaded logging trucks? 
Have you ever had a slow-moving big-rig suddenly swerve in front of you without signaling on a steep mountain grade? Are you a flatlander? 

Are tow vehicle drivers supposed to be 100% clairvoyant in anticipating future emergency situations that may or not require emergency braking?; Such as when a deer could suddenly dash in front of us? Should I add a Crystal Ball to my dashboard?

Are we describing the dangerous, non-electrician technical-illiterates who jury-rig their vehicle and trailer wiring, and improperly ground trailer wiring thru their towing balls?; Install exposed and unreliable unsealed-splices in their trailer wiring?; Or tow fully-loaded 7,500# GVWR trailers with 3,500# tow bars?

If we adhere to standard safety and wiring practices, such as those practiced by aircraft electricians, auto manufacturers and the military, electrical connections and grounds should not fail.


FYI, There are heavy-duty disk brakes (with hydraulic boost) on all 4 wheels of my 3/4 ton pickup and I love them!!!!


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## 046

you need to sell that trailer on craigslist and buy another dual axle trailer with brakes on both axles. 

8in wheels are not worth fooling with and will not carry much weight. 
that's why most trailers with 8in wheels will not have brakes. 

if you've got the budget and a truck that will pull it... best is trailer with tandem 7k lb axles with brakes on both. second best is tandem 5k lb axles. third choice is tandem 3500 lb axles with brakes. 

stay away from trailer made with mobile home axles. 

8lug = 7k lb
6lug = 5k lb
5lug = 3,500 lb

one cord of green can easily be 4k-5k lbs, for wood stay away from trailers without brakes on both axles. 

don't be in a hurry and keep an eagle eye on craigslist. 
deals pop up all the time... but the really great deals will be gone within minutes. 

recently a tandem 7k axle 20ft trailer with brakes popped up on craiglist for $1,250
needless to say... it was gone within minutes. 

the best trailer deal that I missed on craigslist was a 18ft dump with tandem 10k axles with extra hydraulics for $1,200. ad popped at 10pm... called and called... sent countless emails, etc... barely missed it ... arrrgggggg....



NYH1 said:


> My father and I built a 14x8 foot trailer for our ATV's. It has two 2,000 lbs axles. 18.5x8x8 inch tires, load range C, load capacity 940 lbs.
> 
> Going by my tires I would say my total gross trailer weight is 3,760 lbs. The trailer weighs about 1,750 lbs. empty. That gives me 2,010 lbs. of cargo/payload capacity. Our ATV's weigh roughly 1,600 lbs. That puts my gross weight at 3,350 lbs. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> We want to go with electric brakes. My father and I both have factory tow packages on our trucks. Both have the wire set for the electric brake control box.
> 
> Will 7 inch brakes fit under my 8 inch rims? Should I put brakes on both axles?
> 
> Thanks!


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## John D

046 said:


> you need to sell that trailer on craigslist and buy another dual axle trailer with brakes on both axles.
> 
> 8in wheels are not worth fooling with and will not carry much weight.
> that's why most trailers with 8in wheels will not have brakes.
> 
> if you've got the budget and a truck that will pull it... best is trailer with tandem 7k lb axles with brakes on both. second best is tandem 5k lb axles. third choice is tandem 3500 lb axles with brakes.
> 
> stay away from trailer made with mobile home axles.
> 8lug = 7k lb
> 6lug = 5k lb
> 5lug = 3,500 lb
> 
> one cord of green can easily be 4k-5k lbs
> don't be in a hurry and keep an eagle eye on craigslist.
> deals pop up all the time... but the really great deals will be gone within minutes.
> 
> recently a tandem 7k axle 20ft trailer with brakes popped up on craiglist for $1,250
> needless to say... it was gone within minutes.
> 
> the best trailer deal that I missed on craigslist was a 18ft dump with tandem 10k axles with extra hydraulics for $1,200. ad popped at 10pm... called and called... sent countless emails, etc... barely missed it ... arrrgggggg....



Did you even read his post? He is using it for ATV's. He has enough trailer for what his load is as is. Twin 7 k axles for a couple of ATV's?

I would put brakes on the front axle at least,and and buy a breakaway kit for it.If you were towing with a 3500 ,it wouldnt be as important.A 1500 isn't a lot of truck to stop it with.
Here in NY,if the trailer weighs over 1000lbs empty it needs its own brakes,or if its max gvwr is 3000lbs or more it needs its own brakes.If you have brakes,you need a breakaway system to be legal in all states.The fine is substaintial for not haveing a functioning breakway.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

046 said:


> you need to sell that trailer on craigslist and buy another dual axle trailer with brakes on both axles.
> 
> 8in wheels are not worth fooling with and will not carry much weight.
> that's why most trailers with 8in wheels will not have brakes.
> 
> if you've got the budget and a truck that will pull it... best is trailer with tandem 7k lb axles with brakes on both. second best is tandem 5k lb axles. third choice is tandem 3500 lb axles with brakes.
> 
> stay away from trailer made with mobile home axles.
> 
> 8lug = 7k lb
> 6lug = 5k lb
> 5lug = 3,500 lb
> 
> one cord of green can easily be 4k-5k lbs, for wood stay away from trailers without brakes on both axles.
> 
> don't be in a hurry and keep an eagle eye on craigslist.
> deals pop up all the time... but the really great deals will be gone within minutes.
> 
> recently a tandem 7k axle 20ft trailer with brakes popped up on craiglist for $1,250
> needless to say... it was gone within minutes.
> 
> the best trailer deal that I missed on craigslist was a 18ft dump with tandem 10k axles with extra hydraulics for $1,200. ad popped at 10pm... called and called... sent countless emails, etc... barely missed it ... arrrgggggg....



With or without electric brakes and even on small boat trailers, tiny 8 inch wheels and tires are a serious safety hazard! Even if they could carry the load, tiny 8 inch wheels spin so fast that they tend to overheat and burn out the wheel bearings. Tiny 8 inch wheels and tires are a train wreck waiting to happen!


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## 046

ooppsss... didn't catch the ATV part... thought it was a question about hauling wood on a trailer. 

that changes everything about loads... still would not trust 8in wheels
I'd still sell the trailer with 8in wheels and buy another one with at least 14in or 15in wheels single axle. most light duty trailers comes without brakes. 



John D said:


> Did you even read his post? He is using it for ATV's. He has enough trailer for what his load is as is. Twin 7 k axles for a couple of ATV's?
> 
> I would put brakes on the front axle at least,and and buy a breakaway kit for it.If you were towing with a 3500 ,it wouldnt be as important.A 1500 isn't a lot of truck to stop it with.
> Here in NY,if the trailer weighs over 1000lbs empty it needs its own brakes,or if its max gvwr is 3000lbs or more it needs its own brakes.If you have brakes,you need a breakaway system to be legal in all states.The fine is substaintial for not haveing a functioning breakway.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

046 said:


> ooppsss... didn't catch the ATV part... thought it was a question about hauling wood on a trailer.
> 
> that changes everything about loads... still would not trust 8in wheels
> I'd still sell the trailer with 8in wheels and buy another one with at least 14in or 15in wheels single axle. most light duty trailers comes without brakes.



The weight of green wood might be a good assumption. It always pays to be prepared for the heaviest load that a given-size trailer might be asked to carry. I see 1/2 ton pickups with loads of firewood pulled off to the side of the road with broken rear axles all of the time. Not to mention the blown out tires.


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## Crofter

You get over the notion real quick that you dont need trailer brakes when someone pulls into your space and jambs on their brakes. They outbreak you even with fully functional trailer brakes and you never have a legitimate excuses for why you tail ended someone. Yes I have pulled lots of trailers without brakes that should have had them but it never was or will be a wise thing to do. 
Re fitting brakes on an old axle is very often more pricey than buying new complete axles so do the math before you start that project.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

Crofter said:


> You get over the notion real quick that you dont need trailer brakes when someone pulls into your space and jambs on their brakes. They outbreak you even with fully functional trailer brakes and you never have a legitimate excuses for why you tail ended someone. Yes I have pulled lots of trailers without brakes that should have had them but it never was or will be a wise thing to do.
> Re fitting brakes on an old axle is very often more pricey than buying new complete axles so do the math before you start that project.



Speaking of Russian Roulette. I've seen many near collisions in Northern California where tiny econo-boxes suddenly whip in front of fully-loaded logging trucks while hitting their brakes. The air space between the econo-boxes and the front bumpers of the logging trucks they cut off is about as thick as a layer of paint. This is frequently seen on long and steep downgrades where fully-loaded logging trucks have difficulty maintaining safe speeds, much less trying to actually stop. I accord logging trucks lots of room and respect. Fully-loaded logging trucks cannot stop on a dime.

The major advantage of electric brakes on trailers is they don't fade like hydraulic brakes do. Brake fluid is hydroscopic (It absorbs water). Water lowers the boiling temperature. When your brakes get hot, hydraulic brake fluid can boil. When brake fluid boils, you lose your brakes.


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## ozzy42

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Speaking of Russian Roulette. I've seen many near collisions in Northern California where tiny econo-boxes suddenly whip in front of fully-loaded logging trucks while hitting their brakes. The air space between the econo-boxes and the front bumpers of the logging trucks they cut off is about as thick as a layer of paint. This is frequently seen on long and steep downgrades where fully-loaded logging trucks have difficulty maintaining safe speeds, much less trying to actually stop. I accord logging trucks lots of room and respect. Fully-loaded logging trucks cannot stop on a dime.
> 
> The major advantage of electric brakes on trailers is they don't fade like hydraulic brakes do. Brake fluid is hydroscopic (It absorbs water). Water lowers the boiling temperature. When your brakes get hot, hydraulic brake fluid can boil. When brake fluid boils, you lose your brakes.



Sorry ,but you are incorrect in your assumption that boiling brake fluid is the only thing that causes brakes to fade.Any brake can fade if it is overheated.
Ever notice the runaway truck ramps on long steep grades?Well they are made for semi truck trailer combos,no brake fluid there,just compressed air.


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## NYH1

I'm not selling the trailer. 

Electric brakes and drums for one axle is a little over $200. Like I said, the pads are on the axles to mount the brakes to. We also ran the wire to the area of the trailer where the brakes would go when we wired it. It's wired with the round 7 prong plug.

I have to get a electric brake controller.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

ozzy42 said:


> Sorry ,but you are incorrect in your assumption that boiling brake fluid is the only thing that causes brakes to fade.Any brake can fade if it is overheated.
> Ever notice the runaway truck ramps on long steep grades?Well they are made for semi truck trailer combos,no brake fluid there,just compressed air.



With light duty vehicles, overheated brakes are a double whammy. I was thinking of light duty tow vehicles, not big rigs with air brakes. City people overheat their brakes because they don't know how to drive on winding mountain roads. I've seen overheated brake pads so hot such that smoke was pouring from them. I've seen logging rigs with water-cooled brakes pulled off to the side with the driver pouring more water into them. I sure don't want to meet a loaded logging truck headed downhill on a narrow one-lane road while I am headed uphill. Nothing seems to deter the econobox crazies from diving in front of big rigs. When my son (a firefighter-paramedic) was at the Donner Summit Fire Station, he rescued plenty of people from wrecked cars and trucks, but mostly big rigs.


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## deeker

Ever hear of down shifting???? You don't sound like a driver to me. Semi truck brake fluid????????

Air brakes come to mind.


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## deeker

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Towing a trailer without electric trailer brakes is Russian Roulette.
> 
> I used to own a small, single axle, Apache Solid State Tent Trailer equipped with electric brakes. It had 520-12, Load Range C, wheels and tires on it. The GVWR on it was 1,500#. The electric brakes on it made noticeable improvements in driver confidence and in stopping distance.
> 
> One day I was driving along without incident, when all of a sudden I had to make an emergency stop. The electric brakes on that little trailer saved my vehicle from going off the road and being wrecked and they saved my sanity.
> 
> Current models of electric brake controllers, such as the Tekonsha Prodigy, are a vast improvement over the brake controllers of a few years ago. The Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller automatically levels itself and automatically adjusts the gain (or amount of braking) to compensate for uphill and downhill driving.
> 
> Electric trailer brakes are a great backup for when you experience brake fading on your tow vehicle. Should your trailer have more than one axle, make sure that all axles on your trailer have electric brakes.



A small lightweight trailer stopped your truck that outweighed it by...how much???? Physics....don't work somewhere here.


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## ShoerFast

Big thing here are arrestors , little trailers are little trailers, anything to make them safer with out giving the driver a blank sense of security is an improvement. 

Engine brakes that cut off the exhaust and make the engine (diesel) a big air-pump is the way to go. 

Banks makes one for most pick-me-ups, OTR's have them built into the engine valves to slow things down. 

The real slower-downer is a huge generators mounted on the drive-axle, it loads the drive-tires making electric. 

What is a sight to see is a OTR hit the arrest ramps along side some of the steeper hills here. 

Deep pea-gravel off ramps made just for the novice that cooked there brakes, they sould come with port-a-pottys at the end of them to wipe up the aftermath.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

deeker said:


> A small lightweight trailer stopped your truck that outweighed it by...how much???? Physics....don't work somewhere here.



That was back in the early 80s when I bought a new S-10 pickup to save gas. It was a learning experience. The cab was too small, not enough payload, and too light in weight for good traction on dirt roads. I owned a full-size 3/4 ton before that. Even tried 3 full-size 1/2 tons. Went back to full-size 3/4 ton with 4wd and 8,660 GVWR after that.

With the exception of city slickers, flat-landers and econobox crazies, down shifting on steep down grades is a no brainer.

Speaking of the need for those runaway truck ramps, I talked to a fellow from Frazer Park who clocked a big rig heading down the Grapevine towards Bakersfield in excess of 128 MPH. I have seen big rigs on the Grapevine traveling in excess of 85 MPH during heavy snowstorms with poor visibility when other vehicles were losing traction at 25-45 MPH and pulling off of the road. 

L.A. must be a mecca for crazies.


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## KD57

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> L.A. must be a mecca for crazies.



And when they move out, they move to Texas.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

KD57 said:


> And when they move out, they move to Texas.



Like to Dallas?


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## streeter

NYH1 said:


> I'm not selling the trailer.
> 
> Electric brakes and drums for one axle is a little over $200. Like I said, the pads are on the axles to mount the brakes to. We also ran the wire to the area of the trailer where the brakes would go when we wired it. It's wired with the round 7 prong plug.
> 
> I have to get a electric brake controller.



Put brakes on it. Cheap insurance for a peice of mind.

I travel a hill 6 days a week, @15.5 miles and hits 8% grade. I see atleast 2 semi's and alot of trucks/rv's in the runoffs and burned to the ground, cause of underbraking or over loading.

I would rather error on the side of saftey then ooppss. Fluids weight @ 8 lbs a gallon. Now, I do overload my truck hard, I am no angle:greenchainsaw:


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

streeter said:


> Put brakes on it. Cheap insurance for a peice of mind.
> 
> I travel a hill 6 days a week, @15.5 miles and hits 8% grade. I see atleast 2 semi's and alot of trucks/rv's in the runoffs and burned to the ground, cause of underbraking or over loading.
> 
> I would rather error on the side of saftey then ooppss. Fluids weight @ 8 lbs a gallon. Now, I do overload my truck hard, I am no angle :greenchainsaw:



I live at Lake Nacimiento 15 miles from Paso Robles and experience the same type of driving. Our winding 2-lane road snakes over a steep grade having the nickname "Hell Hill". "Hell Hill" or Godfrey Grade will make you a firm believer in good vehicle and trailer brakes. Vehicles wrecked by running off of steep drop-offs are seen frequently. It would make me very happy to see all boat trailers and RVs staying on their side of the double yellow line.

I believe that a gallon of water weighs approx. 8.4# My 26' 5th wheel travel trailer has a 50 gal freshwater tank, a 40 gal gray water tank and a 35 gal black water tank. Do the math.


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## Banshee

I don't think you need brakes either. It's a full size truck pulling 3500 pounds. 
Your truck is built with bigger brakes for the extra weight it tows/hauls. That little a weight I don't think is an thing to worry about. 
You might go with better brakes shoes for the truck if you want the extra piece of mind. 

How many here has haul 2 ricks or wood in their truck bed? What do you that weight? Especially if it was still green.


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## Crofter

weight added to the truck as body haul does not increase stopping distance the same as unbraked trailer weight. Two isssues here; brake fade from long hills or increased max brake application distance. 3500 lbs from an unbraked trailer will come close to doubling your stopping distance with a pickup. If someone panic brakes close in front of you, there are three choices, go around to the left if there is no traffic, hit him, or take the shoulder of the road. I have never rear ended anyone but I have taken the other two options and got lucky. That is not from having no trailer brakes but just the fact that the third of a second delay in air brakes lays the facts that a car can outbrake a truck and most certainly one with a trailer and no brakes on it. Lots of people get away with it for years!


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## NYH1

I'm going to put electric brakes on the front axle and see how they work. I'll go from there. 
Thanks!


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

Crofter said:


> weight added to the truck as body haul does not increase stopping distance the same as unbraked trailer weight. Two isssues here; brake fade from long hills or increased max brake application distance. 3500 lbs from an unbraked trailer will come close to doubling your stopping distance with a pickup. If someone panic brakes close in front of you, there are three choices, go around to the left if there is no traffic, hit him, or take the shoulder of the road. I have never rear ended anyone but I have taken the other two options and got lucky. That is not from having no trailer brakes but just the fact that the third of a second delay in air brakes lays the facts that a car can outbrake a truck and most certainly one with a trailer and no brakes on it. Lots of people get away with it for years!




There are no exceptions to the Laws of Physics!

Consider the following from the California Commercial Driver Handbook:
Total Stopping Distance = Perception Distance + Reaction Distance + Braking Distance

Most states REQUIRE trailer brakes on ALL trailer axles. Cutting corners to save a dime is a gamble.

Think TOTAL STOPPING DISTANCE.


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## Crofter

One axle will help. You can only get braking power to the point the rubber skids; actually best just before lockup. Trailer brakes are a pain to balance and set for best effect. the newer brake actuators are a lot better in this respect. You dont want your trailer brakes (that you set for full load) to lock up empty as the trailer might try to pass you. 

No doubt every one of us has seen drivers pulling trailers that have no idea what they are doing. I have seen old and feeble as well as young and foolish and all in between. It probably should require an additional test to pull anything over 1500 pounds but there is more rules than we can remember or laws the cops can enforce now! I just know what a sucking feeling it is knowing you are not going to get stopped. I live right at the bottom of a steep hill with a 90 intersection there. You wouldnt belive the combinations of vehicles I have seen wind up in the swamp there. One of the cutest was a large boat on a too short and tail heavy trailer that was lifting about three hundred pounds off the rear of the pickup pulling it. The rear wheels of the truck locked up and the anti lock brake system held off the front brakes to match and he just sailed in with virtually no braking action at all.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

Crofter said:


> One axle will help. You can only get braking power to the point the rubber skids; actually best just before lockup. Trailer brakes are a pain to balance and set for best effect. the newer brake actuators are a lot better in this respect. You dont want your trailer brakes (that you set for full load) to lock up empty as the trailer might try to pass you.
> 
> No doubt every one of us has seen drivers pulling trailers that have no idea what they are doing. I have seen old and feeble as well as young and foolish and all in between. It probably should require an additional test to pull anything over 1500 pounds but there is more rules than we can remember or laws the cops can enforce now! I just know what a sucking feeling it is knowing you are not going to get stopped. I live right at the bottom of a steep hill with a 90 intersection there. You wouldnt belive the combinations of vehicles I have seen wind up in the swamp there. One of the cutest was a large boat on a too short and tail heavy trailer that was lifting about three hundred pounds off the rear of the pickup pulling it. The rear wheels of the truck locked up and the anti lock brake system held off the front brakes to match and he just sailed in with virtually no braking action at all.



The newest generation of electric brake controllers, such as the Tekonsha Prodigy, are no worry devices that make past generations of controllers obsolete. They self-level themselves and automatically compensate for uphill, level and downhill braking. They are set and forget devices such that constant monkeying with the gain level, insufficient trailer braking while headed downhill or the skidding of trailer tires while braking on flat terrain are a long gone memories of past generations of trailer brake controllers. Try one of the new models and you won't believe the difference it makes.


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## John D

Crofter said:


> One axle will help. You can only get braking power to the point the rubber skids; actually best just before lockup. Trailer brakes are a pain to balance and set for best effect. the newer brake actuators are a lot better in this respect. You dont want your trailer brakes (that you set for full load) to lock up empty as the trailer might try to pass you.



Trailer brake are more a pain on trailers that have a large weight differential between there light weight,and max loaded weight.Enclosed trailer,and campers are much easier to set up as there weight doesnt change very much.I find my 5 and 7 ton utilitys trailers near impossible to have any braking at all empty or near empty,all you do is end up flat spotting tires.I dont lend my trailers for that reason,tires are expensive.
One advantage of brakes on one axle of a tandem is it will never pass you or fishtail locking up.the non brake axle will keep it tracking straight.I find single brake tandem trailers a nightmare,esp those with torsion axles,as they never have equal weight on them,unless they are towed perfectly level.


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## CaseyForrest

NYH1 said:


> I'm going to put electric brakes on the front axle and see how they work. I'll go from there.
> Thanks!



Best bet, if you are going 1 axle is to put them on the rear.

Generally, when people hitch up the tounge is higher than the rear of the trailer. That puts more weight on the rear axle than the front.


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## CaseyForrest

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> The newest generation of electric brake controllers, such as the Tekonsha Prodigy, are no worry devices that make past generations of controllers obsolete. They self-level themselves and automatically compensate for uphill, level and downhill braking. They are set and forget devices such that constant monkeying with the gain level, insufficient trailer braking while headed downhill or the skidding of trailer tires while braking on flat terrain are a long gone memories of past generations of trailer brake controllers. Try one of the new models and you won't believe the difference it makes.



I don't believe the Prodigy compensates for road grade. If it did, it would need to be leveled. It something self levels, it wont know if its on an incline as it will constantly be adjusting itself.

I have the P3, and what it does offer is proportional braking. In lay terms..the harder I step on the brake, the more current is supplied to the trailer brakes. It does this by sensing how quickly the tow vehicle is being slowed.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

CaseyForrest said:


> I don't believe the Prodigy compensates for road grade. If it did, it would need to be leveled. It something self levels, it wont know if its on an incline as it will constantly be adjusting itself.
> 
> I have the P3, and what it does offer is proportional braking. In lay terms..the harder I step on the brake, the more current is supplied to the trailer brakes. It does this by sensing how quickly the tow vehicle is being slowed.



The P3 must be an older or a cheaper design. The Prodigy Part No. 90185 is Tekonsha's top-of-the line controller. It does proportional braking. There is no adjustment for level on it and no provision for level adj on it. NADA. No need for it. The motion detector technology incorporated in it makes manual level setting obsolete. Set the gain for optimal braking on level ground and it automatically compensates for uphill and downhill driving. Set it and forget it! The Primus is self-leveling as well, but it isn't as intelligent as the Prodigy.

Don't take my word for it, Check Tekonsha's website. Read the print and watch the video.
http://www.tekonsha.com/product/details.asp?ProdID=90185&cat=1435


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## 046

a true proportional brake controller is best. 

prodigy while being an excellent controller is still inertia controlled. I find it strange prodigy's brochures claim it's a proportional controller.

only aware of two types of proportional controllers. 

first is a hydraulic controller based upon feedback from sensor teed into hydraulic lines. several mfg offer hydraulic controllers... a PITA to install, typically $500+

second type of proportional controller uses brake pedal linkage movement to give feedback to sensor. (Ultima $120, not currently available) if your hydraulic brakes ever should go out while pulling a trailer. Ultima would still work. 

with proportional controllers... trailer braking feedback is based completely on how hard you step on brake pedal. vs inertial controllers requires tow vehicles brakes to slow down trailer and tow vehicle before trailer brakes starts to work. 

with proportional controllers it's totally possible to adjust feedback to where trailers brakes first. this allows tow vehicle's brakes to remain cool. 

this is only critical when towing heavier loads. when you are towing a 20k+ lb loaded trailer with a Cummins truck. the last thing you want is brake fade. Really fortunate to have a Ultima controller on my Cummins truck. Too bad Ultima controllers are not back in production yet. 

here's a pic showing how it works.


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## Taxmantoo

046 said:


> a true proportional brake controller is best.
> 
> prodigy while being an excellent controller is still inertia controlled. I find it strange prodigy's brochures claim it's a proportional controller.
> 
> only aware of two types of proportional controllers.
> 
> first is a hydraulic controller based upon feedback from sensor teed into hydraulic lines. several mfg offer hydraulic controllers... a PITA to install, typically $500+
> 
> second type of proportional controller uses brake pedal linkage movement to give feedback to sensor. (Ultima $120, not currently available) if your hydraulic brakes ever should go out while pulling a trailer. Ultima would still work.



Non proportional systems just plain suck. They either apply the brakes a set amount when you trip the switch, or they start braking lightly and increase current to the brakes the longer you keep the brakes on. A friend of mine spent way too much money on the latter when he put a gooseneck hitch in his F250. I hate driving that thing, and I could have gotten him a Prodigy for less than he spent on the controller.

A proportional controller tries to guess how hard you are stopping and activates the trailer brakes to match. This guess can be based on hydraulic pressure, inertia, or pedal travel. Of the three, pedal travel is the least useful. 
To claim a pedal travel system (Jordan) is proportional and an inertial system (Prodigy) is not would be rather silly.


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## 046

now how would you know pedal travel brake controller is least useful? have you used one? 

by the way..a true proportional controller doesn't guess how much brakes to apply to trailer. it applies brakes on trailer proportional to how hard you are stepping on your brake pedal. not how hard the brain box guesses both vehicle/trailer combo should be stopping. 

where this makes the biggest difference is pulling large loads. your tow vehicle's brakes must do ALL the initial braking for both vehicle and loaded trailer before inertia brakes can start working. when towing lighter loads ... this small difference make not mean much. but when towing 20k+lb loads... you can easily overheat your brakes to point of brake fade. ask me how I know :taped:

do a search on RV forums for people that tried both Jordan and prodigy. they go back to Jordan Ultima. don't get me wrong, of the inertia brake controllers, prodigy is the best one and does a good job for most folks. Just that Jordan does a better job on my truck. this is a moot point for most... as Jordan is out of production. 

----------- 
"The problem with an inertial controller is that it measures the rate of deceleration of the truck to determine how much braking to call for from the trailer brakes. Now, if you're in a situation (heavy rain, ice, snow, etc.) where the truck can't generate sufficient deceleration.......well, hopefully, you get the picture. You can wind up like me with a locked brake on the truck (sticking caliper) and no trailer braking whatsoever. Not recommended.

So, yes, it's worth $20 (or $200) more money to me to have a brake controller that applies trailer brakes in direct proportion to what I do with my right foot on the truck's brake pedal. The Brakesmart and Jordan do this. The others mentioned don't."
------------

here's a pic of a prodigy brake controller on the truck I purchased today. a 96 12v cummins turbo diesel with 67k miles. super clean! A 4x4 stick in a 3/4 ton 12v club cab w/super low miles is super hard to find. could have purchased a 2004 CTD with what $$$ I paid. 

anyways... one of the first things I'm going to do is yank out that Prodigy controller and install my Jordan Ultima controller. 









taxmantoo said:


> A proportional controller tries to guess how hard you are stopping and activates the trailer brakes to match. This guess can be based on hydraulic pressure, inertia, or pedal travel. Of the three, pedal travel is the least useful.
> To claim a pedal travel system (Jordan) is proportional and an inertial system (Prodigy) is not would be rather silly.


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## gink595

I have the same electric controller in my truck that I bought ten years ago a Tekonsha Voyager. It took me a few times to fully understand how it operated, and like JohnD said, you will flat spot your tires if you don't adjust it I'd buy another one like it it has never failed me, the unit. But I have had a broken feed wire under the truck that put it out if order.

Here is a couple of items I depend on the Brake controller working. I have pulled the JD without trailer brakes and it was plain horrifying.


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## Crofter

CaseyForrest said:


> Best bet, if you are going 1 axle is to put them on the rear.
> 
> Generally, when people hitch up the tounge is higher than the rear of the trailer. That puts more weight on the rear axle than the front.



That should not be the case if the equalizer linkage is working. Now if it is a homemade with two or more non equalized suspensions it could happen or if the tongue height is so out of whack that the linkage goes to the limit. In that case you will potentially overload the rear axle.

What I have heard is that if all axles are not braked there is a tendency to have brake induced axle hop from the equalizing linkage going into occilation. 

From the posts it looks like there is a fair bit of dinking around to get a good balanced effective trailer braking setup, which has been my experience. In any case it would have to be a *very* bad setup to be worse than no brakes at all on the trailer.


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## CaseyForrest

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> The P3 must be an older or a cheaper design. The Prodigy Part No. 90185 is Tekonsha's top-of-the line controller. It does proportional braking. There is no adjustment for level on it and no provision for level adj on it. NADA. No need for it. The motion detector technology incorporated in it makes manual level setting obsolete. Set the gain for optimal braking on level ground and it automatically compensates for uphill and downhill driving. Set it and forget it! The Primus is self-leveling as well, but it isn't as intelligent as the Prodigy.
> 
> Don't take my word for it, Check Tekonsha's website. Read the print and watch the video.
> http://www.tekonsha.com/product/details.asp?ProdID=90185&cat=1435



I wont take your word for it. 

And take your own advice, read the print...



> Features:
> Prodigy® is the most intelligent brake control. This powerful control features new motion sensor technology similar to what is used in the aerospace industry. With Prodigy® no manual level adjustment is necessary, it adjusts itself to varying terrains as you drive. *It is equipped with a sensor that detects the tow vehicle's rate of deceleration, applies proportional braking to the trailer and features an exclusive "BoostSM" feature that gives users the ability to apply more initial trailer braking power (especially when towing heavier trailers).* For backing into tough spots this is the only inertia control that works proportionally in reverse. A digital display depicts voltage delivery to the trailer during braking and displays continual diagnostics check for proper connection, shorted magnet condition, open ground and much more. A unique pocket mount allows for flexible mounting options (standard mounting bracket included). Prodigy® includes a 3 ft. pigtail connector for ease of connection when using a vehicle's brake control wire harness. A quick and easy disconnect feature allows users to remove the control when not in use and store in a supplied protective pouch. Prodigy® meets National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) regulations regarding tow vehicle/trailer light activation. It also offers a limited lifetime warranty (some conditions apply).



It does not adjust itself based on the incline of the vehicle, other than to automatically adjust the level. This has no effect on how much braking effort you get from the controller.

And you obviously didnt _look_ at the link you put up, right on it is the P3....

http://www.tekonsha.com/video/runvideo.asp?video1=p3-intro.flv

Id say a step above the Prodigy, and not an older design.


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## CaseyForrest

Crofter said:


> That should not be the case if the equalizer linkage is working. Now if it is a homemade with two or more non equalized suspensions it could happen or if the tongue height is so out of whack that the linkage goes to the limit. In that case you will potentially overload the rear axle.
> 
> What I have heard is that if all axles are not braked there is a tendency to have brake induced axle hop from the equalizing linkage going into occilation.
> 
> From the posts it looks like there is a fair bit of dinking around to get a good balanced effective trailer braking setup, which has been my experience. In any case it would have to be a *very* bad setup to be worse than no brakes at all on the trailer.



I thought this would be the case too, but its not.

If it had a walking bar type suspension, both axles would carry the same weight no matter the tilt of the trailer. But since the front axle leaf is hard mounted to a hanger, anytime you raise the level of the tongue, you take weight off the front axle.

Go give it a try...jack your tandem axle trailer up past level so the front is higher and see if you can lift the tongue by hand....now take the weight off the jack, so the front is lower and see if you can lift it by hand.

With mine, that I built here...http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=44000&highlight=trailer

I can take all the weight off the jack, fold it up so the tongue is hanging and lift it up almost 10". If I jack the tongue up to the same height, I cant lift it at all.

Also...Ive changed front axle tires using the jack to lift the front axle off the ground. That means all the weight is on the rear axle. Which means as the tongue goes past level towards being higher than the rear, the rear axle carries more weight.

I have noticed if I hit the manual override hard, it will tilt the equalizer towards the front of the trailer before the wheels lock up. However, the smoothness of the P3 controller, this never happens under normal or even hard braking conditions. Ive got it set at level 6.5 with the brakes freshly adjusted.


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## CaseyForrest

046 said:


> a true proportional brake controller is best.
> 
> prodigy while being an excellent controller is still inertia controlled. I find it strange prodigy's brochures claim it's a proportional controller.
> 
> only aware of two types of proportional controllers.
> 
> first is a hydraulic controller based upon feedback from sensor teed into hydraulic lines. several mfg offer hydraulic controllers... a PITA to install, typically $500+
> 
> second type of proportional controller uses brake pedal linkage movement to give feedback to sensor. (Ultima $120, not currently available) if your hydraulic brakes ever should go out while pulling a trailer. Ultima would still work.
> 
> with proportional controllers... trailer braking feedback is based completely on how hard you step on brake pedal. vs inertial controllers requires tow vehicles brakes to slow down trailer and tow vehicle before trailer brakes starts to work.
> 
> with proportional controllers it's totally possible to adjust feedback to where trailers brakes first. this allows tow vehicle's brakes to remain cool.
> 
> this is only critical when towing heavier loads. when you are towing a 20k+ lb loaded trailer with a Cummins truck. the last thing you want is brake fade. Really fortunate to have a Ultima controller on my Cummins truck. Too bad Ultima controllers are not back in production yet.
> 
> here's a pic showing how it works.



Ive never seen a controller like that. Makes sense.

My P3 hasnt failed me yet. I dont really tow that much, but when I do the trailer is usually fully loaded.


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## 046

do a search for Jordan Controller... they've got cult status among RV'ers. ask anyone that's used both Prodigy and Jordan. they will tell you Jordan is better everytime. 

works exactly like Brakesmart which is a hydraulic proportional controller. a pita to install because you've got to crack your hydraulic lines to tee in a sensor. end result is stepping on your brake pedal results in trailers brakes applying proportional to amount of brakes applied in tow vehicle. this means if you feather your brakes ... trailer brakes is feathered. put your brakes on hard... trailer brakes goes on hard. 

Jordan Ultima controllers works exactly the same. difference is how braking feedback is achieved. Jordan uses a cable that runs from control box to brake pedal. if one follows instructions .. not a big deal to install. it's not necessary to generate braking forces to activate trailer brakes. 

vs inertia brake controller MUST sense a braking motion before trailer brakes are applied. Prodigy's brain makes an educated guess at how much force should be applied. Prodigy is hands down the best of the inertia controllers. what I don't understand is how prodigy can claim to be a proportional controller. when in fact it takes braking inertia to activate trailer brakes first. 

an yes... there is a HUGE difference between the two when towing extremely heavy loads.


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## CaseyForrest

046 said:


> do a search for Jordan Controller... they've got cult status among RV'ers. ask anyone that's used both Prodigy and Jordan. they will tell you Jordan is better everytime.
> 
> works exactly like Brakesmart which is a hydraulic proportional controller. a pita to install because you've got to crack your hydraulic lines to tee in a sensor. end result is stepping on your brake pedal results in trailers brakes applying proportional to amount of brakes applied in tow vehicle. this means if you feather your brakes ... trailer brakes is feathered. put your brakes on hard... trailer brakes goes on hard.
> 
> Jordan Ultima controllers works exactly the same. difference is how braking feedback is achieved. Jordan uses a cable that runs from control box to brake pedal. if one follows instructions .. not a big deal to install. it's not necessary to generate braking forces to activate trailer brakes.
> 
> vs inertia brake controller MUST sense a braking motion before trailer brakes are applied. Prodigy's brain makes an educated guess at how much force should be applied. Prodigy is hands down the best of the inertia controllers. what I don't understand is how prodigy can claim to be a proportional controller. when in fact it takes braking inertia to activate trailer brakes first.
> 
> an yes... there is a HUGE difference between the two when towing extremely heavy loads.



My P3 will apply anywhere between .3 and 1.5 volts to the trailer by me just stepping on the pedal. Everything after that is proportional.

The sensor in it is very sensitive.


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## 046

not familiar with new P3... how many amps not volts does P3 deliver to brakes upon stepping on pedal? 

how does P3 activate trailer braking? via a inertia sensor? or via a mechanical or hydraulic sensor? 

what I'm referring to a proportional controller is one that apply trailer brakes proportional to brake pedal pressure. an inertia triggered controller can only be activated after braking motion has been started by tow vehicle's brakes. 

this is not a true proportional controller. which can be set to have trailer brakes slow the tow vehicle. or any other setting desired by tow driver. 

seems what P3 has done is make controller's response proportional to tow vehicle's braking response. which again is triggered by inertia. 

a true proportional controller doesn't rely on anything except brake pedal pressure. step on the brakes and it works. even when dead stopped or flying down the road. 



CaseyForrest said:


> My P3 will apply anywhere between .3 and 1.5 volts to the trailer by me just stepping on the pedal. Everything after that is proportional.
> 
> The sensor in it is very sensitive.


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## CaseyForrest

046 said:


> not familiar with new P3... how many amps not volts does P3 deliver to brakes upon stepping on pedal?
> 
> how does P3 activate trailer braking? via a inertia sensor? or via a mechanical or hydraulic sensor?
> 
> what I'm referring to a proportional controller is one that apply trailer brakes proportional to brake pedal pressure. an inertia triggered controller can only be activated after braking motion has been started by tow vehicle's brakes.
> 
> this is not a true proportional controller. which can be set to have trailer brakes slow the tow vehicle. or any other setting desired by tow driver.
> 
> seems what P3 has done is make controller's response proportional to tow vehicle's braking response. which again is triggered by inertia.
> 
> a true proportional controller doesn't rely on anything except brake pedal pressure. step on the brakes and it works. even when dead stopped or flying down the road.



Yes, "technically" its an inertia controller.

However, the more deceleration it senses the more voltage it applies to the trailer. as the deceleration decreases, so does the voltage it sends to the trailer. Proportional, but done electrically. Its extremely smooth as well. No jerking, or getting that "pop" when you take your foot off the pedal after a hard stop.

Id have to switch it over to the amp gauge and watch it...so Im not sure on that.

I know what you are saying about a true proportional controller.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

Even with splitting hairs and trying to slice and dice the minute variations between specific models, the current generation of electronic brake controllers is light years ahead of previous generations. Most of the improvement in them can be attributed to improved sensors, the increasing power of microprocessors and improved software. I suspect the differences are mainly in user interface.

My first trailer brake controller was a Kelsey-Hayes connected directly to the hydraulic brake lines in my 1968 Dodge D200. It braked my trailers smoothly and was a total no-worry device.

My first electronic brake controller was a heavy monster-sized, circa 1985, Tekonsha. My second electronic brake controller was a Voyager which was 1/4 the size of the original Tekonsha. The Voyager braked much smoother than my original Tekonsha, but it was still somewhat Herky Jerky. 

Today's generation of Tekonsha brake controllers brake much more smoothly than previous models. They are worry-free and transparent to their users.


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## NYH1

Here are a few pic's of my trailer. My father built the log splitter in the one pic!





My best helper and I (7 year old son, 5 at the time) unloading the truck and trailer!


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## 046

just finished yanking out Prodigy and installing my trusty Jordan Ultima controller in my 96 Cummin Turbo Diesel 5sp 4x4 CC with 67k miles. 

digital display shows amps delivered to trailer brakes. a set of healthy tandem axles brakes should draw aprox. 12-15amps locked up. if trailer brakes does draw correct amps, then there's usually a ground issue.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

I loved my former Kelsey-Hayes hydraulic-electric brake controller. Unfortunately, we can't tap into the hydraulic brake lines on the newer tow vehicles.

I read a comment where an RV user replaced a Tekonsha Prodigy with a P3. He didn't notice any difference.


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## 046

you can always tap into hydraulic lines. simply cut tube and flare ends. sensor has almost zero movement so will not affect braking. 

but it's a pita to do... especially with newer systems with ABS brakes, which may have special bleeding procedures beyond most shade tree mechanics. unless you have the new injection bleeder tool. 



PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> I loved my former Kelsey-Hayes hydraulic-electric brake controller. Unfortunately, we can't tap into the hydraulic brake lines on the newer tow vehicles.
> 
> I read a comment where an RV user replaced a Tekonsha Prodigy with a P3. He didn't notice any difference.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

046 said:


> you can always tap into hydraulic lines. simply cut tube and flare ends. sensor has almost zero movement so will not affect braking.
> 
> but it's a pita to do... especially with newer systems with ABS brakes, which may have special bleeding procedures beyond most shade tree mechanics. unless you have the new injection bleeder tool.



Unfortunately, I tossed the Kelsey-Hayes years ago while cleaning clutter from my garage.

Are you referring to pressure brake bleeders similar to the following? Speedvision has also shown an alternate type of pressure bleeder that injects fresh brake fluid in the opposite direction. (i.e., directly into the wheel cylinders). Since air bubbles rise, the theory is that brake fluid injected into wheel cylinders, instead of the master cylinder, will be more efficient at removing the trapped air.

Motive Products 0250 
Bleed your brakes by yourself.
These Motive Products Power Bleeder kits use pressurized brake fluid to force air and old fluid out of your brake lines. Just pour clean fluid into the pressure tank, attach the Power Bleeder cap to your fluid reservoir, and pressurize the system using the built-in hand pump and pressure gauge. The kits are available for Ford 2-prong caps, Ford 3-prong caps, hydraulic clutch fluid reservoirs, GM applications with flat fluid covers, and thread-on master cylinder caps.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MVP-0250&FROM=MG


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## 046

bummer ... should have kept the old hydraulic controller. 

here's a picture of my Pheonix injector ... allows cross bleeding from point to point. 
and yes.. I'm a bonified tool nut. 













PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Unfortunately, I tossed the Kelsey-Hayes years ago while cleaning clutter from my garage.
> 
> Are you referring to pressure brake bleeders similar to the following? Speedvision has also shown an alternate type of pressure bleeder that injects fresh brake fluid in the opposite direction. (i.e., directly into the wheel cylinders). Since air bubbles rise, the theory is that brake fluid injected into wheel cylinders, instead of the master cylinder, will be more efficient at removing the trapped air.


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## CaseyForrest

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Even with splitting hairs and trying to slice and dice the minute variations between specific models, the current generation of electronic brake controllers is light years ahead of previous generations. Most of the improvement in them can be attributed to improved sensors, the increasing power of microprocessors and improved software. I suspect the differences are mainly in user interface.
> 
> My first trailer brake controller was a Kelsey-Hayes connected directly to the hydraulic brake lines in my 1968 Dodge D200. It braked my trailers smoothly and was a total no-worry device.
> 
> My first electronic brake controller was a heavy monster-sized, circa 1985, Tekonsha. My second electronic brake controller was a Voyager which was 1/4 the size of the original Tekonsha. The Voyager braked much smoother than my original Tekonsha, but it was still somewhat Herky Jerky.
> 
> Today's generation of Tekonsha brake controllers brake much more smoothly than previous models. They are worry-free and transparent to their users.



Agreed.

I just didnt want anyone to think their brake controller could sense hills and adjust trailer braking accordingly. Thats not true and would lead to a false sense of security.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

046 said:


> bummer ... should have kept the old hydraulic controller.
> 
> here's a picture of my Pheonix injector ... allows cross bleeding from point to point.
> and yes.. I'm a bonified tool nut.



Yup! I located the Phoenix reverse fluid injector on the web. There are 3 models: The high end Max Pro, the middle price V-12-205 and the low price V-12-DIY. Any of the 3 could work for the average backyard mechanic. I'm leaning towards the V-12-205 kit in the middle. 
http://www.brakebleeder.com


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

CaseyForrest said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I just didnt want anyone to think their brake controller could sense hills and adjust trailer braking accordingly. Thats not true and would lead to a false sense of security.



Salesdroids tend to get carried away with the marketing hype.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

CaseyForrest said:


> I thought this would be the case too, but its not.
> 
> If it had a walking bar type suspension, both axles would carry the same weight no matter the tilt of the trailer. But since the front axle leaf is hard mounted to a hanger, anytime you raise the level of the tongue, you take weight off the front axle.
> 
> Go give it a try...jack your tandem axle trailer up past level so the front is higher and see if you can lift the tongue by hand....now take the weight off the jack, so the front is lower and see if you can lift it by hand.
> 
> With mine, that I built here...http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=44000&highlight=trailer
> 
> I can take all the weight off the jack, fold it up so the tongue is hanging and lift it up almost 10". If I jack the tongue up to the same height, I cant lift it at all.
> 
> Also...Ive changed front axle tires using the jack to lift the front axle off the ground. That means all the weight is on the rear axle. Which means as the tongue goes past level towards being higher than the rear, the rear axle carries more weight.
> 
> I have noticed if I hit the manual override hard, it will tilt the equalizer towards the front of the trailer before the wheels lock up. However, the smoothness of the P3 controller, this never happens under normal or even hard braking conditions. Ive got it set at level 6.5 with the brakes freshly adjusted.



In my experience, trailers equipped with dual axles tow better and ride smoother than those with single axles. Longer trailers with dual axles are also easier to back up without jackknifing. Fifth wheels are the most stable. Is the triangular pivoting connector located between the front axle spring, the rear axle spring and the frame called an equalizer? I have always wondered how they worked. I have heard that worn bushings in those things can cause poor handling.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Yup! I located the Phoenix reverse fluid injector on the web. There are 3 models: The high end Max Pro, the middle price V-12-205 and the low price V-12-DIY. Any of the 3 could work for the average backyard mechanic. I'm leaning towards the V-12-205 kit in the middle.
> http://www.brakebleeder.com



For about $30 more, Phoenix also offers a "Secret Weapon" combo which includes the MaxPro-205, Brake Strips, and Brake-Free.


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## CaseyForrest

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> In my experience, trailers equipped with dual axles tow better and ride smoother than those with single axles. Longer trailers with dual axles are also easier to back up without jackknifing. Fifth wheels are the most stable. Is the triangular pivoting connector located between the front axle spring, the rear axle spring and the frame called an equalizer? I have always wondered how they worked. I have heard that worn bushings in those things can cause poor handling.



Each has their place. Ive pulled everything between a 10' utility trailer I built, to a 48', 10' wide drop deck with a CAT 330 or D7 on it.

The nice thing about having two axles is the ability to load the trailer for better towing. With a single axle, load placement is critical to get proper tounge loading. With a tandem axle, its not quite as critical since if your tounge is above level, you are essentially adding weight to the hitch. I prefer to have my trailer level, and build proper tounge loading into the suspension. With my current trailer sitting level, Ive got about 75# on the tounge. Enough to keep it under control unloaded, but not so much I cant move it around by hand.

As for backing...The farther you get from the hitch with the centerline of your suspension the easier it is to back. With a tandem thats the equalizer hanger, with a single thats the axle. The downside is the longer you are the more room it takes to back around corners and such.

And yes, that thing is called an equalizer. They help the suspension "walk" over small road imperfections. Essentially always keeping 1 axle on the road surface. Whereas a single axle has a tendency to bounce if the road surface gets rough.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy

CaseyForrest said:


> Each has their place. Ive pulled everything between a 10' utility trailer I built, to a 48', 10' wide drop deck with a CAT 330 or D7 on it.
> 
> The nice thing about having two axles is the ability to load the trailer for better towing. With a single axle, load placement is critical to get proper tounge loading. With a tandem axle, its not quite as critical since if your tounge is above level, you are essentially adding weight to the hitch. I prefer to have my trailer level, and build proper tounge loading into the suspension. With my current trailer sitting level, Ive got about 75# on the tounge. Enough to keep it under control unloaded, but not so much I cant move it around by hand.
> 
> As for backing...The farther you get from the hitch with the centerline of your suspension the easier it is to back. With a tandem thats the equalizer hanger, with a single thats the axle. The downside is the longer you are the more room it takes to back around corners and such.
> 
> And yes, that thing is called an equalizer. They help the suspension "walk" over small road imperfections. Essentially always keeping 1 axle on the road surface. Whereas a single axle has a tendency to bounce if the road surface gets rough.



RVers prefer dual axles because they don't shake up the contents of their trailers. Proper tongue weight is critical. Most all RV trailers have 10-15% of their total weight on the ball. I once bought a used boat and trailer rig that wandered all over the road. The tongue on the 1,500# GVWR boat and trailer combo weighed 750#. I unbolted the axle from the frame and moved it forward until about 150# was on the ball. After that, it towed like a dream. Keeping the trailer level helps as well. 

A body shop repairing the rear end of my GMC Suburban aligned the factory bolt-on receiver hitch at a slight down angle instead of level with the frame. My 26' travel trailer didn't feel right. I made the body shop grind off the welds and do it right.


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