# direction of fall



## woodfarmer (Oct 11, 2006)

which way should this maple tree fall?, trunk of tree bows south, 20" dia approx 40', the branches all lean to the north side of tree, bottom branch to tip approx 30'


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## stihlatit (Oct 11, 2006)

Pictures please.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 11, 2006)

pictures won't be available till next week


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## stihlatit (Oct 11, 2006)

Okay because pictures will surely help from all angles.


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## logbutcher (Oct 11, 2006)

*Make it Go Where You Want It*



woodfarmer said:


> which way should this maple tree fall?, trunk of tree bows south, 20" dia approx 40', the branches all lean to the north side of tree, bottom branch to tip approx 30'


The DBH is ?
Anyhow, you should be able to put the tree anywhere you want. Skidder plow, front end bucket both can 'push' the trunk in the direction you want. Even come-alongs tied as high as you can get. All the "old" way.
Best way though is to use the correct combo of cuts--open mouth, and back cut bore--WITH wedges. Look up the Game of Logging (GOL) or CPL (Certified Professional Logger) programs that train the way to fell any tree where you want it. 
I don't use anything anymore but good cuts, planning, and plenty of wedges. No barber chairs, no unpredictable felling, no hangups, and it's all safer and faster.


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## windthrown (Oct 12, 2006)

*Agreed on direction...*

Unless there is a really steep slant to the tree, you should be able to drop it where you want to. I have used tractor buckets and bulldozer blades to push trees over where I want them to land in tight spots. Lately I have been pretty good picking a spot and trying to get within a foot or two of where I want a tree to fall with just chainsaw cuts and maybe a wedge here or there. If it hangs or becomes unstable or is in a tight spot, I put the tractor bucket on it about 6 feet up and push it over. Some trees are so bent over that there is no choice as to where to drop them. Madrones and maples grow at fairly sharp angles around here, and often there is only 20 degrees of angle that you can fell them on. 

As the local sawyers here say, if a tree has not split open and spun completely around and fallen 180 degrees of where you wanted it, while landing right on your chainsaw, well, then you do not have enough experience yet


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## smokechase II (Oct 12, 2006)

*directional control*

A 20" tree, 40 feet tall (be clear on dimensions), with solid wood to work with.............
There could be many answers to this question.

When you take the photos, see if you can put a weight on a string, (plumb bob - could be a budget one made with a rock), and place it a couple feet in front of the camera to indicate the lean. The string doesn't need to be in focus. Just there will be fine.

Many camera lenses will distort near the edge of the photo, (especially on a wide angle setting). So place the main trunk in the photo center.

This may not have application to your tree, but a general rule is the higher up a directional factor is the greater influence it will have on where the tree is going. I.e., a longer lever arm is more powerful. Again, some caveats here, but consider that many trees have two leans and the upper lean can be the greatest influence. Or the limb weight up high can often overpower the bow down near the butt.

Even with photos we could still be providing marginal advice.


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## logbutcher (Oct 12, 2006)

*Roger That !*



smokechase II said:


> Even with photos we could still be providing marginal advice.



Big marginals :hmm3grin2orange: Could even kill 

Hey, no joke here.


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## windthrown (Oct 14, 2006)

*Putting the tree where you want it...*

I cut down a 35-40 ft red alder snag today. 32 inch diameter. I cut a wedge, then changed my mind about which way to drop it, and cut another wedge from that side (which seemed heavier in top branches). Then I did a back/second cut above and toward the wedge from the other side, and... nothing happened. Damn thing just sat there. I swore that the heavy side was on the side of the 2nd wedge. I was also past the wedge cut with the back cut by about an inch. It should have fallen over right then. The tree was seemingly perfectly balanced, and was not willing to go over. So... I got on the tractor and pushed the thing over with a nudge of the bucket. Safer that way. Crash, bang, roll, debris flying... job done. It fell right between two other trees... where I wanted it. 

It is all firewood now, cut, split and stacked. Maybe 2 (real) cords of wood. Should keep us warm for a while. Damn Stihl 290 (24 inch bar) does not like to run when it is hot though. Cleaned the filter, pulled the plug, checked what little there is to check. Tends to die out and not wanna go when it is hot for some reason. ??? I had to finish with the Echo 14 inch saw today, unwilling to get the 36 inch monster out to finish the small stuff with.


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## fishhuntcutwood (Oct 14, 2006)

Even with pics it'd be hard to tell, but at least we could get on the right path. The only way to know is to walk up to the tree and decide from there. What's around it? Is this timber, or residential? Flat ground, or on a slope? Are all of your limbs live? Is the wood sound all the way through? Each tree is obviously different, but some rules always apply. Pics don't always paint an accurate picture.

What kind of experience do you have falling trees? Please, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask, maybe you should get someone on scene to help out.  

Jeff


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## woodfarmer (Oct 14, 2006)

*fish*

the tree is dead, there is hydro lines 40' one way and a highway 40' the other. i didn't have any rope with me so to avoid what windthrown posted above because i can't get the tractor near it, i just left it for now. i do have lots of experience i know which way i'm going to drop it, i just thought i'd put the question up for the members.


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## clearance (Oct 14, 2006)

windthrown said:


> I cut down a 35-40 ft red alder snag today. 32 inch diameter. So... I got on the tractor and pushed the thing over with a nudge of the bucket. Safer that way.


 Does your tractor have guarding, like a roll over protective structure with heavy screen and bars to prevent material, like say a huge chunk of alder from crushing you? I have done land clearing, me with the big saw and the guy with the big excavator that has a hydraulic thumb and most important of all (for him), the logging package (enclosed roll over protective structure, heavy guarding for the machine as well). I have seen snags break as they fell and come over backwards in pieces. I have seen all kinds of unexpected things, like the machine getting hammered by branches and tops, right over buddies protected head. Machines are great for treework, they have to be the right machines, take care of yourself.


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## Gologit (Oct 14, 2006)

Listen to FHCW and Clearance. Both these guys have real-world experience in what you're trying to do. Windthrown sounds like he's a very lucky man but not too experienced and maybe not too bright.


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## windthrown (Oct 15, 2006)

*Not too bright?*

Not too experienced or too bright? I have dropped a few hundred trees in my day, and I have several advanced university degrees, but what the heck. I will leave this thread to you experts.  

Adios and good luck out there...


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## fishhuntcutwood (Oct 15, 2006)

windthrown said:


> Not too experienced or too bright? I have dropped a few hundred trees in my day, and I have several advanced university degrees, but what the heck. I will leave this thread to you experts.
> 
> Adios and good luck out there...



C'mon wind, you just joined last month, stick around. AS is all about thick skin.


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## logbutcher (Oct 15, 2006)

*Stihl in Heat*



windthrown said:


> Damn Stihl 290 (24 inch bar) does not like to run when it is hot though. Cleaned the filter, pulled the plug, checked what little there is to check. Tends to die out and not wanna go when it is hot for some reason.



Most of the MS Stihls have "winter" and "summer" air positions for the carb air flow. Had the same problem with my MS260, until I read the manual :deadhorse: Also, check the kind of summer or winter filter you got. The fleece filter for warm weather cutting may look clean, but cannot pass air  I did not say that Herr Stihl.:greenchainsaw:


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## windthrown (Oct 16, 2006)

*Thanks for the tip...*

I will re-read my Stihl 290/310/390 owners manual and see if I can keep her going in winter/summer mode. 

In the meantime I fired up an Olympic backup mid-size saw with a 25 inch bar. Older odd brand saw, made in Italy w/o a chain brake. Runs good though, even after sitting around for 4 years unused. As I am apparently not too bright, I will see if I can cut my foot off with it or something. :greenchainsaw:


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## jomoco (Oct 16, 2006)

woodfarmer said:


> which way should this maple tree fall?, trunk of tree bows south, 20" dia approx 40', the branches all lean to the north side of tree, bottom branch to tip approx 30'



Why mess around or guess?

Use a throw bag to get a bull line through a good crotch. Make your felling cut leaving sufficient hinge wood to hold it in place. Then pull, winch or come along the tree over exactly where you want it.

This is the safest surest way to put a dead tree where you want it.

Beware of stacking more than two or three wedges to fall a tree or pounding wedges into a dead tree with out a spotter to give warning of falling branches.

Play it safe, it's worth the effort!

jomoco


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## woodfarmer (Oct 18, 2006)

*day in Bobcaygeon*

ok here are the pictures i know everyone has been waiting for, the straighter tree, tied the rope, notched, dad pulled rope tight(since they are his trees), back cut, hung up as expected, 04 gmc, chian pulled tree down, no problem. the leaner however is either going to take the winch to pull it a long way back or we may have to get it topped. ps check out the day in bobcaygeon thread in chainsaw for the 066 pics


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## woodfarmer (Oct 18, 2006)

*lost a picture*

here it is


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## woodfarmer (Oct 18, 2006)

*lost a picture*

here it is


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## smokechase II (Oct 18, 2006)

*thoughts*

A green tree that falls into an uninsulated powerline can conduct fairly well.
If that were to happen, let go of the rope etc.
Be humble and call the utility companies and don't take a chance.

Two thoughts on the leaner:
Pulling unnecessarily hard with a rope is one of the ways to sponsor a barber chair. 
Not being careful and cutting off holding wood means loss of control that even a rope may not be able to counter.

There is a lot of talk on this forum about logging and wedging. Good things, you bet. But the impression I have based on that second photo is that I wouldn't touch it without a rope up high.

All the best


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## windthrown (Oct 19, 2006)

logbutcher said:


> Most of the MS Stihls have "winter" and "summer" air positions for the carb air flow. Had the same problem with my MS260, until I read the manual :deadhorse: Also, check the kind of summer or winter filter you got. The fleece filter for warm weather cutting may look clean, but cannot pass air  I did not say that Herr Stihl.:greenchainsaw:



I found the season position on the pre-filter and the spark plug flippey-thingey and changed them to winterize the Stihl. But it _stihl _would not stay running. So I took it into the small engine shop here and the guy said it was a broken fuel line. He is fixing it tonight. Says it is so easy that he will do it for free. Nice guy... now I will have to buy a new chain from him or something.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 19, 2006)

*logbutcher*

i have the HD filter with the neck warmer around it, is that only for summer use? the repair manual only mentions the HD filter as an option no picture of it or any other mention.


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## stihlatit (Oct 19, 2006)

logbutcher said:


> Big marginals :hmm3grin2orange: Could even kill
> 
> Hey, no joke here.



Yes and without pics it is impossible.


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## stihlatit (Oct 19, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> A green tree that falls into an uninsulated powerline can conduct fairly well.
> If that were to happen, let go of the rope etc.
> Be humble and call the utility companies and don't take a chance.
> 
> ...



I am with you exacly smokechaser. Thats an ugly one thats hard to call from a picture. It has quite a lean and there is hydro. I would want to see that one but looks like a rope high tied back to another high spot to pivot it away from the hydro. Best advice is given above.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 19, 2006)

*leaner*

we hired a "professional" a few years ago for a tree about the same size with half the lean over a garage, he shot the rope through a crotch in the tree, down the trunk and tied about three feet above ground level. on the other end was a chainsaw winch anchored to a tree aprox. 100' or more in the bush. the helper took up the slack, he made his notch, helper applied a little pressure, as back cut was being made, helper started pulling and tree came over very nicely, again only half the lean as the one pictured above.


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## PWB (Oct 21, 2006)

windthrown said:


> Not too experienced or too bright? I have dropped a few hundred trees in my day, and I have several advanced university degrees, but what the heck. I will leave this thread to you experts.
> 
> Adios and good luck out there...



Clearance, how many have you dropped??

As for degrees, they're great, but they don't mean you have practical experience! a BA or MA in art history won't help in you in the bush! (you didn't say what field your degrees were in!)


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## windthrown (Oct 22, 2006)

*Art history?*



PWB said:


> Clearance, how many have you dropped??
> 
> As for degrees, they're great, but they don't mean you have practical experience! a BA or MA in art history won't help in you in the bush! (you didn't say what field your degrees were in!)



I was born in a forest in Oregon. I started cutting trees down with my daddy when I was 8 years old. Then later we got into knocking them over with a bulldozer. 100 ft Doug firs on his preperty up around Mt Hood. I had a landscape biz with my brother in California for 5 years. We made a lot of money felling a lot of trees down there. I got a degree in horticulture and landscaping then. After that I went back and got my engineering degrees. Then I designed computers for 15 years and made a small fortune in Silicon Valley. They have trees there too... 

Now I have returned to the woods in central Oregon. For the last 2 years here I have been terraforming, road building, tree cutting (maybe 50?) and planting thousands of trees, fencing, clearing brush, landscaping, installing a 90 ft RR bridge, growing garlic, raising sheep and doing a lot of other stuff on this 105 acre parcel. I have also been working on a certificate in silviculture from OSU. No art history though... sorry. But who cares? I got the girl, a lot of bush, and I have the money. 

Not bad for someone that is inexperienced and not very bright...


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## MNClimber (Oct 22, 2006)

That tree looks like it leans pretty bad to fell even with the use of rope. I would just hire a climber to get it on the ground. Doesn't't look to hard to get on the ground if you climb it. You could even tie into the white pine if the tree was to rotten to safely climb. But if you still want to do it your self could you get a rope in it and run a pulley to one or two trees behind it. If you can you could run the rope out under the power likes to a tractor or truck to gain the leverage that you would need.


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## Thomas Moore (Oct 22, 2006)

woodfarmer said:


> which way should this maple tree fall?, trunk of tree bows south, 20" dia approx 40', the branches all lean to the north side of tree, bottom branch to tip approx 30'


I would cut a nice notch, ( not too big ) and use a wedge and drop her where ever it would do the least damage . from the sonds of it ,it will go where ever you want it to !


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## Schultzz (Oct 22, 2006)

clearance said:


> Does your tractor have guarding, like a roll over protective structure with heavy screen and bars to prevent material, like say a huge chunk of alder from crushing you? I have done land clearing, me with the big saw and the guy with the big excavator that has a hydraulic thumb and most important of all (for him), the logging package (enclosed roll over protective structure, heavy guarding for the machine as well). I have seen snags break as they fell and come over backwards in pieces. I have seen all kinds of unexpected things, like the machine getting hammered by branches and tops, right over buddies protected head. Machines are great for treework, they have to be the right machines, take care of yourself.



Excellent Point. Murphy is always lurking when it comes to treework!


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## windthrown (Oct 23, 2006)

*Murphy's law...*

FYI, :deadhorse: our Kubota does have a roll cage... and at times I even wear a hardhat and chainsaw chaps. I have seen big trees crack, roll, bounce, flip, twist, split open, gush water, and shatter. At the same time, I do not see the need to have an OSHA representative and ambulence on site just to knock a damn 40 ft alder over with a tractor becasue after it is notched and back cut, it just sits on the hinge going nowhere. Safety is one thing, but tipping a tree over with a bucket in a controlled drop is not the end of the world. The alder dropped and went _exactly _where I expected and wanted it to go. It did not roll or bounce or flip. Limbs flew a few feet and that was it. No dead bodies, missing limbs, or other tragic events happened. Dead calm day; I do not cut down trees on windy or even breezy days. Wind can easilly put a tree where you do not want it.


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## clearance (Oct 24, 2006)

windthrown said:


> FYI, :deadhorse: our Kubota does have a roll cage... and at times I even wear a hardhat and chainsaw chaps. I have seen big trees crack, roll, bounce, flip, twist, split open, gush water, and shatter. At the same time, I do not see the need to have an OSHA representative and ambulence on site just to knock a damn 40 ft alder over with a tractor becasue after it is notched and back cut, it just sits on the hinge going nowhere. Safety is one thing, but tipping a tree over with a bucket in a controlled drop is not the end of the world. The alder dropped and went _exactly _where I expected and wanted it to go. It did not roll or bounce or flip. Limbs flew a few feet and that was it. No dead bodies, missing limbs, or other tragic events happened. Dead calm day; I do not cut down trees on windy or even breezy days. Wind can easilly put a tree where you do not want it.


Windy, as you know it all, quit asking for advice, what I said holds, its true, roll cage, yeah right, on a garden tractor, you mean a bar, not the same. Anyone else out there, read what I said about this, people have been killed pushing trees with the wrong machine (or the right machine improperly equipped).


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## tek9tim (Oct 25, 2006)

Experience doesn't mean jack damnit unless you have the correct habits and proper training in the beginning.

Candles (broken top snags) rarely fall with a standard face cut and no wedge. You have to change your technique, use a deeper face, wedge it over, and for god's sake DON'T CUT OFF THE HOLDING WOOD like you described doing. If you had quality experience, you would have talked about that like a screw up. I fall hundreds of trees a year without heavy equipment or ropes, just an axe and wedges.


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## woodfarmer (Oct 25, 2006)

boy this thread is getting legs, the only tree i havn't touched is the heavy leaner, it may have to wait for hydro to fell


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## windthrown (Oct 28, 2006)

*Garden tractor???*



clearance said:


> Windy, as you know it all, quit asking for advice, what I said holds, its true, roll cage, yeah right, on a garden tractor, you mean a bar, not the same. Anyone else out there, read what I said about this, people have been killed pushing trees with the wrong machine (or the right machine improperly equipped).



A Kubota M series ~garden~ tractor?  
I believe it is proper to call it a FAAAAAARM tractor. 

Sorry, you are wrong "Mr Integrity." Our tractor has a full custom tube steel roll CAGE setup, like in a stock car setup. Not the stock flip-up roll bar. Welded tube steel, along with.. never mind. You people seem to love filling in blanks with pure BS to amuse each other or make up for small stature or something. I give up. I will take my degrees in what was it? Oh yah, art history, and my baby tree pushing garden tractor and evanesce out of here...


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## Ekka (Oct 28, 2006)

Crikey

A whole lot of egos getting slammed around this thread ...

... hey windthrown, buy a MS460 off that bloke, trade in that plastic saw ... you can afford it. :rockn:


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## windthrown (Nov 4, 2006)

*Stihl...*

I was talking to the local Stihl/Husky dealer here today when looking at mid-range buzz saws. He was a sawyer for over 20 years. Anyway, he loves my tractor method for tipping alders... says it is probably safer, as he has cut a lot of alder and says that alders tend to split and split fast (faster than you can cut... or run). :yoyo:


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## woodfarmer (Nov 4, 2006)

*wind*

show us a picture of this mighty kubota!


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## windthrown (Nov 5, 2006)

*Naw...*



woodfarmer said:


> show us a picture of this mighty kubota!



What, go down and snap a photo in the driving rain here, upload it to AS so that the AS group can blast me with more endless BS about the garden tractor? <blink blink> 

:notrolls2:

Sorry, methinks not. Also the _Girlfriend _has the roll cage off and the tooth bar on the bucket to muck out the barn before putting her breeding groups of sheep together for the winter. The cage is too high to fit through the barn doors.


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## theoldfarmer (Nov 6, 2006)

*Robin Hood method*

Thanks to those who kindly shared their experieces. On our farm our Blue Gum Eucalyputus trees border public roads over which they are often leaning. We have 40 each +/- trees as large as 48 + " Dia.

I attempt to shoot an arrow, with a light cord attached, over a high side branch. Then pull a rope through with a 1/2" Dia x 90' cable attached. Route the loose end so that it will tighten around the main trunk then attach to the main-line with a clevis. 

Then hook to a tractor and put enough tension on the cable to encourage directional falling but not enough to split the trunk as the cutting progresses. Prefer to use our crawler tractor on the larger trees since our wheel tractor weighs less than 4000 pounds. Again, we use a 90 foot cable for safety.

Much appreciation for all that post on the Forum.

theoldfarmer
N. California

Not everone will have this advantage of an open farm field for
the pulling tractor.


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## Monk (Nov 9, 2006)

*the tree in question*

I would recommend getting a climber to do it but if that is an option, and you say the rest of the trees are removed stand directly behind the tree from the powerline look up the trunk which ever direction it leans the most left or ight notch it to go that direction not completely that way but enough it will miss the line start in the tree at the bottom side and come around leavin about an inch of hinge at the bottom and slowly come around the the back of the tree away from the line until it starts to fall dont cut it off the hing on the back is what will swing it. If you use this method fasteniing a rope as high as you can get it and achoring it to another tree direct behind is encouraged. You can also use a wedge to help guide it but dont try to wedge it straight back.




Jeremy Hart
2-ms660, ms084, ms200t 
2-JD440B


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## Eppleton (Nov 14, 2006)

*sight lines*

Another 2-cents,

All newer professional saw models, regardless of brand, have sight lines embossed on both the rewind and sprocket (sp?) covers... they run perpendicular to the bar and allows a faller to make minute directional adjustments, if nesscessary, during the undercut (conventional and humbolt) process. 

An analogy - similar to the sights on the gun - the bullet should follow the sights. Of course, there are numerous varibles that can compromise direction (ie. wind, lean, etc.), however the slight lines are another usable item to assist in direction.

Eppleton


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## gitrdun_climbr (Nov 14, 2006)

*windthrown, lol*

I don't think that people in this forum set out to belittle you but I cringed when I read your post...and knew it was coming. I mean you cut an inch PAST your wedge leaving NO holding wood for a hinge? After cutting multiple wedges in the tree before determining which way the tree leaned? Using a saw you knew wouldn't stay running once warm? Then shoved that dangling spar forward with a Kubota? Claimed the 35' Alder produced two true cords of firewood, lol. Now if you had been writing about how NOT to take down a tree I could understand but to take the tone that it was just another highly skilled day in the office will bring the noise in this forum every time; degrees, girls, experience or whatever you 'said' you got.

Sorry to go off topic woodfarmer. I'm out.


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