# Trainee climber falls



## Jim1NZ (Jun 10, 2005)

Yesterday a trainee climber fell 14 foot, this not being a massive fall, although he still ended up smashing his ankle's, as he landed directly on his feet. I was not on sight when it happened, but was there not longer after to help stretcher him into an ambulance.

We peaced the scenario together and it turned out he lanyarded in for a change over, untied his climbing rope to throw up higher, lent back and fell. I believe he didn't lanyard in correctly, and also it was blamed on the snap clip he uses on his lanyard.

These snap clips on flip lines are dogy! Don't use them as they are basically only a single locking clip. Always look, listen and feel for a correct and safe change over!


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## Dadatwins (Jun 10, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> We peaced the scenario together and it turned out he lanyarded in for a change over, untied his climbing rope to throw up higher, lent back and fell. I believe he didn't lanyard in correctly, and also it was blamed on the snap clip he uses



When I see a new climber laynard in to make a change over I tell them to test the laynard tie in before unclipping main line. Reason #1 is to make sure they are balanced to make a higher toss with a climbing line and #2 to make sure laynard is secure. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 10, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> One time I clipped my lanyard into a carabiner that holds my hand saw scabbard.



I've done something similar, it was stupid, and I learned from it.


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## Ekka (Jun 10, 2005)

At arbor camp they tried to get us all to have a short prussik and a carabiner on the lanyard in addition to the existing snap clip, a back up. That way with the above incident the guy would have been alright.

I don't do it though, but I visually check it every time I click in. These snaps can rollout of the D rings too if there's a lot of twisting going on, so check, check all the time.


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 11, 2005)

Dadatwins said:


> When I see a new climber laynard in to make a change over I tell them to test the laynard tie in before unclipping main line. Reason #1 is to make sure they are balanced to make a higher toss with a climbing line and #2 to make sure laynard is secure. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.



Exactly, this is what is taught and is what he should have done, put weight on the lanyard before untying his climbing line (second rope point).

Ekka, i was issued with a set up like that, a prussic loop adjustable lanyard, with triple locking carabinas on each end, but they are crap! Takes two hands to tighten the lanyard!

I use a knut with a micro pulley on the lanyard, so the lanyard is fully adjustable with one hand both in and out. Smooth


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 11, 2005)

Watch those snap clips! I wouldn't trust them. You should really have triple locking carabinas...


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## kf_tree (Jun 11, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> Watch those snap clips! I wouldn't trust them. You should really have triple locking carabinas...



how can you say that? as long as it was a safety snap there is nothing wrong with it.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2005)

Yea, what's wrong with it? Locking snaps are all I ever use, I don't like biners.


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## darkstar (Jun 11, 2005)

*snap links*

ANSI directly staes climbers must use the triple locking biners... i use the petzl twist lock that has the tiny gree button locking mech. hard to get used to and am not really sure if it meets ansi ...


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 11, 2005)

ANSI can bite my ass.


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## tophopper (Jun 11, 2005)

darkstar said:


> ANSI directly staes climbers must use the triple locking biners... i use the petzl twist lock that has the tiny gree button locking mech. hard to get used to and am not really sure if it meets ansi ...



Check the regs again my friend you are mistaken....

ANSI states carabiners must be positive locking, not triple locking.
This means 2 seperate operations to prepare the gate to open, so in total 3 motions all together.
The ball lock biners are ANSI compliant.

Regarding snaps, ANSI states they must be self closing and of the locking type with a 5k tensile strength. 
Locking rope snaps are perfectly legal.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 11, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> ANSI can bite my ass.



And you could argue that it does not apply to you, being an owner operator.


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## TREETX (Jun 11, 2005)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> And you could argue that it does not apply to you, being an owner operator.



He could, but maybe he has an ass biting fetish :angel:


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## Ekka (Jun 11, 2005)

I love those locking snaps, stuff buggerizing around with one hand trying to open some BS biner when the heats on for a "get out the way" call etc.

Isn't it funny that in rock climbing they use those simple non locking alloy carabiners and take falls on them ... that's like standard. There's no rule that says it's gotta be double or triple lock there.

In this instance the guy was new/inexperienced. Probably didn't do the visual check or the lean back is it OK check before detaching from the lifeline.

JiM1NZ, I meant an extra carabina and back up on the non-adjustable side, rope snap + the back up so there would be 2 connections on that end of your lanyard. I use mechanical adjusters, one is a Moxham rope adjuster the other a Gibbs goldie. Both work real easy with one hand.


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## darkstar (Jun 11, 2005)

oh cool ..i mis read that ... im glad to hear my ball locks are ansi approved haha.. no seriously if an accident ever occurs i want all ducks in a row. 2 years ago i had to finish a job where a good climber fell . his really old school snap lock supposedly came un done .... terrible ... the new guy mentioned here umm i doubt he ever makes that mistake again ...


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## Lumberjack (Jun 11, 2005)

I support my weight on my secondary before I unhook the primary, that way if its caught on something I cant see I will know before I unhook the primary and at best smash my jewels on the tree.

Its important to know how normal things sound and feel and when they arent right. I can tell when the gate on my biner didnt rotate to a fully locked position, then a quick visual check is always important. 

Once I nearly came outta a tree in a bad way. I was about 50' up setting a rope to pull a forked top out. I had my lanyard around the tree and was fixing to come down on my 8. I loosened my lanyard and had a firm grip on the tail, unhooked the lanyard and started leaning back. I realized something was wrong when I didnt feel my weight being put on the 8, looked down and the biner wasnt hooked to the saddle! Talk about a pucker factor.

Double check, its often the simple things we mess up on. Last cut syndrom is a huge issue that is easy to fight.


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 11, 2005)

I used snap locking clips in forestry on high lifts, they are about a second faster than a carabina. I don't think thats what its about though, snap clips are double locking, but i found when tree climbing, that if your up against something the first locking mechanism is easily pushed in and all it takes is a stick to hit the gate and open it. But what are the chances?

The snap clips are not banned in NZ, but are 'frowned upon' 

I bet there are count less people who climb on single locking carabinas or simply free climb and are still alive. Hel i know one guy that climbed on a 5lb carabina, the outcome when he fell was not so good though.

Il stick to my triple locking system, besides you cant competition climb with snap lock clips.


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 11, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> Double check, its often the simple things we mess up on. Last cut syndrom is a huge issue that is easy to fight.



I agree, its more about the double checking thats gona save you


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## Ekka (Jun 12, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> besides you cant competition climb with snap lock clips.



You can here if they're on your lanyard.

Here's a pic of the back up idea.


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## tophopper (Jun 12, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> besides you cant competition climb with snap lock clips.




ummm, chech the rule book.....

from the 2005 ITCC rule and regs
rule number *2.2.8*-_All rope snaps shall be of the self closing, locking type._


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## darkstar (Jun 12, 2005)

from all the snap links if seen and have not used ... the biners are generally much lighter ...


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## kf_tree (Jun 12, 2005)

darkstar said:


> from all the snap links if seen and have not used ... the biners are generally much lighter ...



you have never used rope snap's? how long have you been climbing?


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## R Schra (Jun 12, 2005)

Ekka said:


> You can here if they're on your lanyard.
> 
> Here's a pic of the back up idea.



So you feel save with an selfclosing NOT locking biner as back-up?


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## Lumberjack (Jun 12, 2005)

I have used 1 snap that came on a wire core I used to use. Its all biners for me.


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## Ekka (Jun 12, 2005)

R Schra said:


> So you feel save with an selfclosing NOT locking biner as back-up?



Put what ever carabiner you prefer, personally I don't run a back up system but that's what they were enforcing us to do at Qld arborcamp. As it's not the primary locking device and only there for backup we could get away with this, the idea being it should never have to be used.


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## tophopper (Jun 12, 2005)

I dont understand how that is a backup?


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## okietreedude1 (Jun 12, 2005)

darkstar said:


> from all the snap links if seen and have not used ... the biners are generally much lighter ...




Apparently you dont have one of my aluminum snaps. 

The fp8002

http://okarboristsupply.com/climbing_aids.htm

Super light and rated higher than the steel.


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## clearance (Jun 13, 2005)

Steelcore flipline, mechanical cam type slack adjuster at one end and a double locking rope snap at the other end, good spurs. Safest, surest way to climb. Tautline to rappel from the t.i.p. you can look directly at. Never can fall unless you do something very wrong.


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## Ekka (Jun 13, 2005)

tophopper said:


> I dont understand how that is a backup?



If the double locking guy comes off/out then the prussik's gotcha.


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## jason j ladue (Jun 13, 2005)

i still say hurrying is the most common cause of injury. it is so easy to lose focus and not realize. always double check. then check again before making any move. this profession is far too unforgiving of any error to not take your time.


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## darkstar (Jun 13, 2005)

unless im mistaken it doesent show the weight and the dmm locking aluminum biner is 45 kl. thats almost twice the strength ... not that you really need that much xrta strength ... oh and yeah i used the snap links once or twice but i prefer the locking biners plus i get them for free ... and 20 years climbing trees ... ive been around the block ...alot of climbers around here use biners now .... dark


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## tophopper (Jun 13, 2005)

Ekka said:


> If the double locking guy comes off/out then the prussik's gotcha.



So.... evertime you use the lanyard you have to unclip both and reclip them both to the opposing dee?  Sounds like like a pain. Why not just use 2 lanyards then?


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 15, 2005)

tophopper said:


> So.... evertime you use the lanyard you have to unclip both and reclip them both to the opposing dee?  Sounds like like a pain. Why not just use 2 lanyards then?



Na mate, thats the adjusting side on Ekka's set up, never to be undone unless the lot is to be taken off. You cant see the other clip which will be on the other end of his flip line.

In NZ, no one that i have seen uses the snap lock clips in competition, maby the rules are different overseas?


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## darkstar (Jun 15, 2005)

having climbed in 7 countries and at least 10 states im more used to seeing locking biners in action ... but i do see plenty of super hard core climbers using the old snap locks ... personally i think light is right .... i hated the spin ball petzl locking biners ... com oon how u gonna use that with a glove .. i dont use gloves but .... anyhow the late jeff lowe used them alot mountain climbing and ice climbing so i figured they must be pretty good ....now i love them ..very fast ..... green = go no green no go .... everybody has their own preferance ....im used to the grillion ... well home made styl;e ...anyhow since i read here ive been using a schwabisch and a micro pulley ....very smooth .... but i doubt ill take it up for good .... havent tried the art yet ...hmmm wish i could borrow one first .... 200 us ...ouch oh well 
hope the trainee is healing up fast ..... and no doubt will be x tra safe from now on .....i got a chain saw cut really bad in my second year .... hmmm ive been as safe as possible since .... i dunno ' never hurry ' ....yeah rt.


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 16, 2005)

hey dark, just cut the finger tips off the gloves and you can use the ball lock no sweat, wouldn't be too keen to do so if its freezing cold though


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## darkstar (Jun 16, 2005)

shoot i never use gloves anyhow ...hey never climbed in new zealand must be a blast ... spent a year working the bluies though... my boss tried to kill the yank ...i got hired first day there ..he said any climber who would bring all that stuff all the way to oz must be ok ... 300 ozie a day i loved it ...but the rego ...ouch


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## Jim1NZ (Jun 16, 2005)

Na me neither, NZ is great, some big trees and heaps of different species, everything seems to grow here! Wouldn't mind cruzing over to the USA for a look a


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