# Falling cuts



## Trx250r180 (Mar 6, 2013)

is there any threads on falling cuts ,and why they do what they do ? only ones i usually use are humbolt and coos ,but ive been noticing different ones in pictures ,some backcuts low some high some angled ,is that just user preference or is there some physics with different cuts ?for lean etc


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## northmanlogging (Mar 6, 2013)

I've always heard that low was bad, angled is worse. 

Low and with a saginaw (conventional) can cause a kick back, where in the tree jumps backwards off the stump, you know at the faller..., using the humboldt negates this for the most part.

Crooked back cuts that cross the face, can cause the tree to fall away from the desired direction, similar to leaving more holding wood on one side or the other,

Crooked back cuts in the sloping toward or away from the face way, are mostly just sloppy, but if steep enough can make wedging a real nightmare, because instead of lifting the tree, you are in effect trying to push it over, this can lead to the holding wood breaking and having the tree choose its own path (i.e. very bad). It also makes pounding the wedges in difficult as Hel, especially if it slopes in an upward direction...

Having the back cut to high can lead to lots of fiber pulling or a premature holding wood release (cutter keeps on cutting and wacking wedges and before he know it he/she's past the face cut and the holding wood just splits off like cord wood...)

There are situations where you could use anyone of these methods for your benifit, but there are other and safer ways of accomplishing the same thing...

I usually try to have the back cut flush or up to 2" higher than the face cuts, and the back cut parallel with the face, unless its a soft dutch or some other fancy face then its perpendicular with the tree... ish... kinda... when I'm lucky... and not to tired...


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## sun64 (Mar 6, 2013)

One cut i have heard about and found interesting was where the back cut is done lower than the face cut .
I have heard they use this technique when tying a rope into a tree to either counteract a lean, or help pull the tree in the desired direction away from buildings etc. 
I was told it is used as a safeguard where the rope is not placed that high up a tree, perhaps only as high as the ladder goes and if the operator on the tow rope end pulls too soon , it stops the trunk being pulled off the stump and the canopy going over backwards where the faller is. 
Regards Wayne


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 6, 2013)

Ive noticed west coast guys the facecut is on the low side,east seems like face is up high,our stumps seem higher too,ive always been told back cut strait off my face unless you need more holding wood for wedging go up some,they go here i want them usually,if in question always can push with a machine if avalible


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## 4x4American (Mar 8, 2013)

My boss gets pissed when I use a humboldt. I throw in humboldt if I wanna do a sizwheel or a soft dutchmen. He likes me to do conventional notch cause then I can get the stump lower, he says that the stump should be no more than 4" tall. I was cutting down a small black birch that was in the way of the skid trail and I threw a humboldt in it in front of bossman and he really freaked out over it. We weren't using the tree for nothin, it was just in the way, and he flipped out over me doing a humboldt. saying who the hell cuts trees like that anyways blah blah blah! He's cut down big stuff out west on some island he heli logged there for a few years, showed me a bunch of cool pictures, I reckon they dint say nothin bout him using a conventional notch. Anyways, it's funny, GOL teaches that Humboldts are dangerous and risky, and that open face (split the difference) are the safest....bunch of bologna. Slowp posted a logging safety video thing from canada and they said that humboldt was safest and conventional was dangeroust. They also said it was required for a faller to have a wrap around handle bar on their saw and an ax and at least 3 wedges. My boss is the opposite, if he gets saws from out west for a good deal and they have full wrap handles, he takes a hacksaw to em and makes em half wrap! (what a nut job he is)...on top of that, he never carries an ax on him, he'll cut a piece of branch and use that to pound wedges. and I've seen him before cut up the wedge from the face cut and use them as wedges whilst pounding them in with a branch. he sure is something...61 years old and can outwork the whole crew too whatdoya know. his pops just retired from the logging business last year, at 80 something years old. they dont make em like they used to.


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## Samlock (Mar 8, 2013)

4x4American said:


> My boss gets pissed when I use a humboldt. I throw in humboldt if I wanna do a sizwheel or a soft dutchmen. He likes me to do conventional notch cause then I can get the stump lower, he says that the stump should be no more than 4" tall. I was cutting down a small black birch that was in the way of the skid trail and I threw a humboldt in it in front of bossman and he really freaked out over it. We weren't using the tree for nothin, it was just in the way, and he flipped out over me doing a humboldt. saying who the hell cuts trees like that anyways blah blah blah! He's cut down big stuff out west on some island he heli logged there for a few years, showed me a bunch of cool pictures, I reckon they dint say nothin bout him using a conventional notch. Anyways, it's funny, GOL teaches that Humboldts are dangerous and risky, and that open face (split the difference) are the safest....bunch of bologna. Slowp posted a logging safety video thing from canada and they said that humboldt was safest and conventional was dangeroust. They also said it was required for a faller to have a wrap around handle bar on their saw and an ax and at least 3 wedges. My boss is the opposite, if he gets saws from out west for a good deal and they have full wrap handles, he takes a hacksaw to em and makes em half wrap! (what a nut job he is)...on top of that, he never carries an ax on him, he'll cut a piece of branch and use that to pound wedges. and I've seen him before cut up the wedge from the face cut and use them as wedges whilst pounding them in with a branch. he sure is something...61 years old and can outwork the whole crew too whatdoya know. his pops just retired from the logging business last year, at 80 something years old. they dont make em like they used to.



Your boss sounds an interesting piece of work to me. But, him having all that experience and merits, it's safe to say, as long as you're working for him, shut up and do exactly how he wants it done.


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## Gologit (Mar 8, 2013)

Samlock said:


> Your boss sounds an interesting piece of work to me. But, him having all that experience and merits, it's safe to say, as long as you're working for him, shut up and do exactly how he wants it done.



Yup.


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## 056 kid (Mar 8, 2013)

What if your on a slope? A Humboldt can be done with cuts good and close to the ground. 
Iv never cut any big enough, but I can imagine a conventional face on big timber day after day would wear a guy out a whole lot quicker than using a Humboldt and allowing gravity to do the work.


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## twochains (Mar 8, 2013)

4x4American said:


> My boss gets pissed when I use a humboldt. I throw in humboldt if I wanna do a sizwheel or a soft dutchmen. He likes me to do conventional notch cause then I can get the stump lower, he says that the stump should be no more than 4" tall. I was cutting down a small black birch that was in the way of the skid trail and I threw a humboldt in it in front of bossman and he really freaked out over it. We weren't using the tree for nothin, it was just in the way, and he flipped out over me doing a humboldt.
> 
> GOL teaches that Humboldts are dangerous and risky, and that open face (split the difference) are the safest....bunch of bologna. Slowp posted a logging safety video thing from canada and they said that humboldt was safest and conventional was dangeroust. They also said it was required for a faller to have a wrap around handle bar on their saw and an ax and at least 3 wedges.



Always respect your boss and his experience. 

I only use a humboldt on all species. Today however I threw in a conventional on a 4ft white oak using a 20 in bar. I only did it because it was a shell and I knew I would be butting alot off the tree. Conventional cuts will cause grief at the mills due to the missing wedge out of the butt. I have seen on first count basis where a conventional ruined ERC logs due to length. What happened was the cants were goin to a closet liner producer, he has to have say 8'2 at the minimum, if the logger measures from the long end...the log actually measures short. Same thing seems to go with tie logs, the mills around here absolutely don't want conventional notched butt logs...but to each their own I guess.

I don't understand the second statement where it says you HAVE to have a full wrap to do a humboldt...I have personally never even seen a full wrap except in pictures.

disclaimer...I'm no expert and learn everyday :hmm3grin2orange:


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## timberland ts (Mar 8, 2013)

East vs west i use what works best. Some times humbolt and sometimes conventional. I allways make my back cut level. Mills dont want the flair on the high grade so the stumps are a little higher. And guys on the east cost tend to run short bars.


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## twochains (Mar 8, 2013)

timberland ts said:


> East vs west i use what works best. Some times humbolt and sometimes conventional. I allways make my back cut level. Mills dont want the flair on the high grade so the stumps are a little higher. And guys on the east cost tend to run short bars.



I don't really see it as an East vs. West scenario...I would love to have the skill set the left coasters have! Also I'm central! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## timberland ts (Mar 8, 2013)

Lot of good cutters reguardless of where your form. An old timer told me once you have two ears and one mouth use them in that order.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 8, 2013)

sun64 said:


> One cut i have heard about and found interesting was where the back cut is done lower than the face cut .
> I have heard they use this technique when tying a rope into a tree to either counteract a lean, or help pull the tree in the desired direction away from buildings etc.
> I was told it is used as a safeguard where the rope is not placed that high up a tree, perhaps only as high as the ladder goes and if the operator on the tow rope end pulls too soon , it stops the trunk being pulled off the stump and the canopy going over backwards where the faller is.
> Regards Wayne



This may work, however if pulling a danger tree over its always better to go as high as you can with your pull rope so you have more leverage, more leverage means your less likely to pull the butt out.

Also if pulling you can leave much more holding wood and still get the tree over, thereby reducing the risk of pulling the butt off, you do run a little risk of chairing this way but its slight. You run more risk of chairing from having a low back cut regardless of pulling it over or not... 


Now as far as humboldt vs conventional/saginaw... you can still use sizwheel with a conventional, but it burns butt wood so might as well start with a humboldt, in fact soft dutch, step dutch, all burn butt wood with a conventional, so just use a humboldt... Humboldt WILL stop a tree from kicking back, ( not might, will) where a conventional will not, unless you cut your back a little high and even then its iffy, in thinning or steep ground this is far more important then getting the lowest stump and highest chiropractor bill... you can alway cut the stump lower after the tree is on the ground.

And for GOL... well lets just say they would kick me out of that class... and not just for my foul mouth 

Short bars... :msp_confused: i just don't get it... we have hardwood out here too... walnut, maple, oak, (doug fir is considered by some to be a hard wood...???) but a 36" bar on an 70cc saw is not unusual... I guess if a guy/gurrl wants to make laps around a tree for half an hour that's up to him...


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## funky sawman (Mar 9, 2013)

4x4American said:


> My boss gets pissed when I use a humboldt. I throw in humboldt if I wanna do a sizwheel or a soft dutchmen. He likes me to do conventional notch cause then I can get the stump lower, he says that the stump should be no more than 4" tall. I was cutting down a small black birch that was in the way of the skid trail and I threw a humboldt in it in front of bossman and he really freaked out over it. We weren't using the tree for nothin, it was just in the way, and he flipped out over me doing a humboldt. saying who the hell cuts trees like that anyways blah blah blah! He's cut down big stuff out west on some island he heli logged there for a few years, showed me a bunch of cool pictures, I reckon they dint say nothin bout him using a conventional notch. Anyways, it's funny, GOL teaches that Humboldts are dangerous and risky, and that open face (split the difference) are the safest....bunch of bologna. Slowp posted a logging safety video thing from canada and they said that humboldt was safest and conventional was dangeroust. They also said it was required for a faller to have a wrap around handle bar on their saw and an ax and at least 3 wedges. My boss is the opposite, if he gets saws from out west for a good deal and they have full wrap handles, he takes a hacksaw to em and makes em half wrap! (what a nut job he is)...on top of that, he never carries an ax on him, he'll cut a piece of branch and use that to pound wedges. and I've seen him before cut up the wedge from the face cut and use them as wedges whilst pounding them in with a branch. he sure is something...61 years old and can outwork the whole crew too whatdoya know. his pops just retired from the logging business last year, at 80 something years old. they dont make em like they used to.



Well I will put this kindly, Your boss and I WOULD NOT GET ALONG. the second he told me not to use a humbolt, I reckon that old fart and I would be rollen round in the brush exchanging fists!!


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 9, 2013)

4x4American said:


> My boss gets pissed when I use a humboldt. I throw in humboldt if I wanna do a sizwheel or a soft dutchmen. He likes me to do conventional notch cause then I can get the stump lower, he says that the stump should be no more than 4" tall. I was cutting down a small black birch that was in the way of the skid trail and I threw a humboldt in it in front of bossman and he really freaked out over it. We weren't using the tree for nothin, it was just in the way, and he flipped out over me doing a humboldt. saying who the hell cuts trees like that anyways blah blah blah! He's cut down big stuff out west on some island he heli logged there for a few years, showed me a bunch of cool pictures, I reckon they dint say nothin bout him using a conventional notch. Anyways, it's funny, GOL teaches that Humboldts are dangerous and risky, and that open face (split the difference) are the safest....bunch of bologna. Slowp posted a logging safety video thing from canada and they said that humboldt was safest and conventional was dangeroust. They also said it was required for a faller to have a wrap around handle bar on their saw and an ax and at least 3 wedges. My boss is the opposite, if he gets saws from out west for a good deal and they have full wrap handles, he takes a hacksaw to em and makes em half wrap! (what a nut job he is)...on top of that, he never carries an ax on him, he'll cut a piece of branch and use that to pound wedges. and I've seen him before cut up the wedge from the face cut and use them as wedges whilst pounding them in with a branch. he sure is something...61 years old and can outwork the whole crew too whatdoya know. his pops just retired from the logging business last year, at 80 something years old. they dont make em like they used to.




I have to agree with Samlock, don't forget who signs the cheques


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 9, 2013)

056 kid said:


> What if your on a slope? A Humboldt can be done with cuts good and close to the ground.
> Iv never cut any big enough, but I can imagine a conventional face on big timber day after day would wear a guy out a whole lot quicker than using a Humboldt and allowing gravity to do the work.



How do you figure that? Seems to me if you're dogged in the tree should be bearing nearly all the weight


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## RandyMac (Mar 9, 2013)

I think, maybe the beanhead was thinking about levering or chunking out big face cuts. It can be a chore and dangerous to feet and shinbones.


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## StihlKiwi (Mar 9, 2013)

Good point Randy, hadn't considered that. Speaking from experience I take it?


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## RandyMac (Mar 9, 2013)

StihlKiwi said:


> Good point Randy, hadn't considered that. Speaking from experience I take it?



Yup.

There is a prime example in this video, a close call. I have seen a couple injuries due to chunking out.

Falling Old Growth Redwood - YouTube


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## northmanlogging (Mar 9, 2013)

here's one that shows gravity helping, and a dutchmen block Marcel-Falling - YouTube


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## floyd (Mar 9, 2013)

Been said before...logging is NOT a game.


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## twochains (Mar 9, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Short bars... :msp_confused: i just don't get it... we have hardwood out here too... walnut, maple, oak, (doug fir is considered by some to be a hard wood...???) but a 36" bar on an 70cc saw is not unusual... I guess if a guy/gurrl wants to make laps around a tree for half an hour that's up to him...



HA HA! a gurrl??? THH! See, the thing is we don't have monster trees like you all do out West. I have a couple long bars I could throw on if I wanted...however the percentage of trees I would actually use one on is so small that it really isn't worth it. Also, even with the new crew I cut for, they have a Hydra ax. I may start the day out falling, then hear that cutter start up, gather my gear, wait ten minutes and go to chasing that dang thing all over Hell's creation. I don't care who you are or where your from...ya won't go 8 or 9 hours straight limbing behind that dude with a long bar. The under brush and crap just won't let ya get around with a long bar, it's just not going to work out. 

When I say "you" or "ya" I'm not directing towards you northman...just making a general statement. :hmm3grin2orange: (don't make me get all internutz tough on you )


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## rwoods (Mar 9, 2013)

sun64 said:


> One cut i have heard about and found interesting was *where the back cut is done lower than the face cut *.
> I have heard they use this technique when tying a rope into a tree to either counteract a lean, or help pull the tree in the desired direction away from buildings etc.
> I was told it is used as a safeguard where the rope is not placed that high up a tree, perhaps only as high as the ladder goes and if the operator on the tow rope end pulls too soon , it stops the trunk being pulled off the stump and the canopy going over backwards where the faller is.
> Regards Wayne





northmanlogging said:


> This may work, however if pulling a danger tree over its always better to go as high as you can with your pull rope so you have more leverage, more leverage means your less likely to pull the butt out.
> 
> Also if pulling you can leave much more holding wood and still get the tree over, thereby reducing the risk of pulling the butt off, you do run a little risk of chairing this way but its slight. You run more risk of chairing from having a low back cut regardless of pulling it over or not...
> 
> ...



A year or so back another of our downunder friends stated this is the cut to make when pushing trees over with equipment. Otherwise he said you run the risk as described by sun64 of knocking the tree off the stump and it falling backwards on the equipment operator. Ron


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## northmanlogging (Mar 9, 2013)

twochains said:


> HA HA! a gurrl??? THH! See, the thing is we don't have monster trees like you all do out West. I have a couple long bars I could throw on if I wanted...however the percentage of trees I would actually use one on is so small that it really isn't worth it. Also, even with the new crew I cut for, they have a Hydra ax. I may start the day out falling, then hear that cutter start up, gather my gear, wait ten minutes and go to chasing that dang thing all over Hell's creation. I don't care who you are or where your from...ya won't go 8 or 9 hours straight limbing behind that dude with a long bar. The under brush and crap just won't let ya get around with a long bar, it's just not going to work out.
> 
> When I say "you" or "ya" I'm not directing towards you northman...just making a general statement. :hmm3grin2orange: (don't make me get all internutz tough on you )



no offense take'n or meant, I ass-u-me ya east coast guys don't walk the log to limb, if you did you would recognize the need for a long bar immediately, its difficult to bend over and get a limb when your already defying gravity, the extra length makes it possible...


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 9, 2013)

Id rather not have my face close to a tree limbing with 20 inch bar,a 32 feels much safer if a limb pops back at you


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## hammerlogging (Mar 10, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> Id rather not have my face close to a tree limbing with 20 inch bar,a 32 feels much safer if a limb pops back at you



this is true in the east too. there's lots of times I'm glad I have the extra length. the balance, and how well the saw carries onthe shoulder alone, is enough to convince a fulltime faller to switch.


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## twochains (Mar 10, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> Id rather not have my face close to a tree limbing with 20 inch bar,a 32 feels much safer if a limb pops back at you



I would like to apologize for turning your thread in the wrong direction. This is turning into a possible argument, and that kinda sucks. I think there are valid points and thats what makes a discussion...one that I am sensing has probably been hashed out over and over again on here and I am too new to know it. 

I think that the same limb you are worried about slapping you using a 20" bar will still slap you with a 32"...I mean, with the right amount of pressure, a limb isn't going to notice if you have 12 more inches on your bar? Right? Now come on, ya gotta give me that one.  

Once again I'm sorry to have turned your face cut thread into a long bar short bar thing...I feel to blame for it.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 10, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> this is true in the east too. there's lots of times I'm glad I have the extra length. the balance, and how well the saw carries onthe shoulder alone, is enough to convince a fulltime faller to switch.



Im sold on the es light bar now,stiff like an es ,but a 32 feels about like a 25 does for nose weight


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## 056 kid (Mar 10, 2013)

twochains said:


> I would like to apologize for turning your thread in the wrong direction. This is turning into a possible argument, and that kinda sucks. I think there are valid points and thats what makes a discussion...one that I am sensing has probably been hashed out over and over again on here and I am too new to know it.
> 
> I think that the same limb you are worried about slapping you using a 20" bar will still slap you with a 32"...I mean, with the right amount of pressure, a limb isn't going to notice if you have 12 more inches on your bar? Right? Now come on, ya gotta give me that one.
> 
> Once again I'm sorry to have turned your face cut thread into a long bar short bar thing...I feel to blame for it.




A 32 makes all the difference in the world when working with bound and sprung wood compared to a 20. The 32 faces a bigger tree faster and bucks faster too. People are just unwelcomed to change.


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## 056 kid (Mar 10, 2013)

twochains said:


> HA HA! a gurrl??? THH! See, the thing is we don't have monster trees like you all do out West. I have a couple long bars I could throw on if I wanted...however the percentage of trees I would actually use one on is so small that it really isn't worth it. Also, even with the new crew I cut for, they have a Hydra ax. I may start the day out falling, then hear that cutter start up, gather my gear, wait ten minutes and go to chasing that dang thing all over Hell's creation. I don't care who you are or where your from...ya won't go 8 or 9 hours straight limbing behind that dude with a long bar. The under brush and crap just won't let ya get around with a long bar, it's just not going to work out.
> 
> When I say "you" or "ya" I'm not directing towards you northman...just making a general statement. :hmm3grin2orange: (don't make me get all internutz tough on you )



Don't forget, brush can be cut with the chainsaw. I can now through tops quicker with a 32 than something shorter. If you carry it every day you will get use to it. Then you'll feel better cause you cut 75% more trees from one side instead of dancing around the stem front and back. To each his own though.


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 10, 2013)

twochains said:


> I would like to apologize for turning your thread in the wrong direction. This is turning into a possible argument, and that kinda sucks. I think there are valid points and thats what makes a discussion...one that I am sensing has probably been hashed out over and over again on here and I am too new to know it.
> 
> I think that the same limb you are worried about slapping you using a 20" bar will still slap you with a 32"...I mean, with the right amount of pressure, a limb isn't going to notice if you have 12 more inches on your bar? Right? Now come on, ya gotta give me that one.
> 
> Once again I'm sorry to have turned your face cut thread into a long bar short bar thing...I feel to blame for it.



I dont consider this a derail, your equipment is important has a lot to do with cutting and safety is important too,what works for us on the left coast may not be needed in other regions


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## Woody912 (Mar 11, 2013)

I wish I could make a level backcut!!!! Seems like I always run a little downhill and a little sloped down from me to the bar tip no matter how hard I look at it. Bad glasses maybe.   I do stay a little high when I'm pulling a tree, seems like I get more lean in the tree before the hinge breaks


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 11, 2013)

Woody912 said:


> I wish I could make a level backcut!!!! Seems like I always run a little downhill and a little sloped down from me to the bar tip no matter how hard I look at it. Bad glasses maybe.  I do stay a little high when I'm pulling a tree, seems like I get more lean in the tree before the hinge breaks



have you tried cutting using the sights on the saw ? or just eyball the bar ?


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## Woody912 (Mar 11, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> have you tried cutting using the sights on the saw ? or just eyball the bar ?



Only sight I know about is the one perpendicular to the cut in the falling position, maybe I'm missing something but yes I eyeball the bar. I'm sure if I could stand back and look I would see it but a lot of my cutting is against a fence, have to bore a lot of them to start. My saws are 036 Pro's


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 11, 2013)

the black line across top of your saw and follows onto starter cover and clutch cover is the sight on the 036 ,sometimes i use those to line my cuts up and get direction i want tree to fall ,kind of like a gun sight


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## 4x4American (Mar 11, 2013)

056 kid said:


> What if your on a slope? A Humboldt can be done with cuts good and close to the ground.
> Iv never cut any big enough, but I can imagine a conventional face on big timber day after day would wear a guy out a whole lot quicker than using a Humboldt and allowing gravity to do the work.



yea it gets old, he makes us do a conventional notch, then bore cut in from the middle of the notch far as you can so that there's a "double hinge," then bore cut far as the little 24" bar will go parallel to the notch, about 2" back, then walk it back a bit on the heavy side first, stick a wedge in, then bore cut in from the other side, trying to line it up perfect with the first bore cut, then dance around the tree, and with a half wrap saw you can't cut with the bottom of the bar on half of the tree so you work against yourself half of the time which isn't that much fun. (most everything we cut is oak and it doesn't like being bore cutted most of the time, and good lord when we're sawin on hickory, you could have a razor sharp chain and it'll cut like its rocked)...anyways, you leave a little strip in back, pound in some wedges, and then finally, if your cuts line up, the almanacs right, the fish dont bite and the groundhog sees his shadow, you cut that last strip in the back and hope you got all the holding wood whilst dilly dallying around boring the tree from every which angle and it'll go over right where you figured it to go. Bossman thinks it's the safest way to cut trees, and that then it won't pull heart out from boring it so much. I think it's ridiculous, but I have to play by the rules.


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## Isna (Mar 11, 2013)

Woody912 said:


> I wish I could make a level backcut!!!! Seems like I always run a little downhill and a *little sloped down from me to the bar tip *no matter how hard I look at it. Bad glasses maybe.  I do stay a little high when I'm pulling a tree, seems like I get more lean in the tree before the hinge breaks



Many of the guys I train do the same in the beginning. haven't found the perfect solution but I noticed putting one knee on the ground helps (instead of bending over). It is also much better to prevent back ache... Many employees have the same problem and I am open to any ideas to help solve it quickly. Worse is when they do a sloped face cut from one side of the tree and move to the other side of the tree to do the back cut, sloping the other way. They usually do end up "getting it" after a while.


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## Woody912 (Mar 11, 2013)

Isna said:


> Many of the guys I train do the same in the beginning. haven't found the perfect solution but I noticed putting one knee on the ground helps (instead of bending over). It is also much better to prevent back ache... Many employees have the same problem and I am open to any ideas to help solve it quickly. Worse is when they do a sloped face cut from one side of the tree and move to the other side of the tree to do the back cut, sloping the other way. They usually do end up "getting it" after a while.



You just described me!!! I usually do cut on the ground (frozen) and have the sore knees to prove it. Ran a saw for about 35 yrs but little felling until about 4 yrs ago, last tree I dropped I started 1" high on my side and hit the notch on the other (26" hickory), safe cut but wish I was better. Do the same darn thing when I block them on the ground, about 5 degree tilt in 2 directions. Just my view of the world I guess. Always wanted the chance to watch a good faller work, pretty much in awe of you guys. My stumps look better than most of the firewood cutters around here but I want mine to look like the pros!


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## Samlock (Mar 11, 2013)

Isna said:


> Many of the guys I train do the same in the beginning. haven't found the perfect solution but I noticed putting one knee on the ground helps (instead of bending over). It is also much better to prevent back ache... Many employees have the same problem and I am open to any ideas to help solve it quickly. Worse is when they do a sloped face cut from one side of the tree and move to the other side of the tree to do the back cut, sloping the other way. They usually do end up "getting it" after a while.



The well sized felling dogs make the leveling a lot easier.


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## 4x4American (Mar 11, 2013)

Samlock said:


> The well sized felling dogs make the leveling a lot easier.



I'm happy you put that thought in my head...good thing to chew on. my 461r has got the dandy felling dogs and i will for sure use them as a guide from here on out. At work we just got half wrap 372's and their dogs are junk for falling, in lots of situations they dont grab anything and I'm not a fan. I was showing my 461r to my buddys pops whos nickname is woodcutter, been an east coast logger all his life, anyways, I was shootin the bull with him saturday and he was telling me that I'd hate the felling dogs on my saw when I get working with them in the bush. I said that I like them better than most smaller dogs I've worked with. My favorite is that you can stick the saw pretty much anywhere and it'll stay, second favorite part is that the dogs actually grab most of the time.


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## hammerlogging (Mar 11, 2013)

I've helped fallers with this bad habit. To me its about muscle memory. Getting on a knee does help. I've theorized on an invention, but I better wait on that one. I know that facing on one side and backcutting from the other really reveals some faults in my saw handling, so I avoid it. 

I will, over and over, have them hold their saw down and then BANG hit the level position. See it, feel it. Eyes closed. Then I will hold the tip perfectly level, their eyes shut, until they fell it. Repetition, over and over, and it works. Also, stump reading. Hounding them about stumps, "what is wrong with this one" "what do you need to do to make it perfect?" make perfect stumps! 

I'm sure I'm not the only full timer who will catch a bad habit. the important this is to identify it and then fix it.


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## northmanlogging (Mar 11, 2013)

big thing that helped me is just to stop and look double check that it really is level, don't just hack it down, but take your time and do it right, speed will come later. granted towards the end of the day mine start getting pretty crooked... I blame my belly though


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## 056 kid (Mar 11, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> I've helped fallers with this bad habit. To me its about muscle memory. Getting on a knee does help. I've theorized on an invention, but I better wait on that one. I know that facing on one side and backcutting from the other really reveals some faults in my saw handling, so I avoid it.
> 
> I will, over and over, have them hold their saw down and then BANG hit the level position. See it, feel it. Eyes closed. Then I will hold the tip perfectly level, their eyes shut, until they fell it. Repetition, over and over, and it works. Also, stump reading. Hounding them about stumps, "what is wrong with this one" "what do you need to do to make it perfect?" make perfect stumps!
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only full timer who will catch a bad habit. the important this is to identify it and then fix it.



I'll go weeks. Then all the sudden my back cuts start sloping down the far side. How annoying...


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## Isna (Mar 12, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> I've helped fallers with this bad habit. To me its about muscle memory. Getting on a knee does help. I've theorized on an invention, but I better wait on that one. I know that facing on one side and backcutting from the other really reveals some faults in my saw handling, so I avoid it.
> 
> *I will, over and over, have them hold their saw down and then BANG hit the level position.* See it, feel it. Eyes closed. Then I will hold the tip perfectly level, their eyes shut, until they fell it. * Repetition, over and over, and it works. Also, stump reading. Hounding them about stumps, "what is wrong with this one" "what do you need to do to make it perfect?" make perfect stumps!
> *
> I'm sure I'm not the only full timer who will catch a bad habit. the important this is to identify it and then fix it.



+1
That is exactly how I teach them except I never tried to have them close their eyes to really feel it. I'll try next time. I also have them describe what's going on with their stumps and how to improve it. As said previously, they do catch it after a while.


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## Samlock (Mar 12, 2013)

4x4American said:


> I'm happy you put that thought in my head...good thing to chew on. my 461r has got the dandy felling dogs and i will for sure use them as a guide from here on out. At work we just got half wrap 372's and their dogs are junk for falling, in lots of situations they dont grab anything and I'm not a fan. I was showing my 461r to my buddys pops whos nickname is woodcutter, been an east coast logger all his life, anyways, I was shootin the bull with him saturday and he was telling me that I'd hate the felling dogs on my saw when I get working with them in the bush. I said that I like them better than most smaller dogs I've worked with. My favorite is that you can stick the saw pretty much anywhere and it'll stay, second favorite part is that the dogs actually grab most of the time.



I know what you're talking about. I was told to throw the dogs away back in days because we didn't want to lose any of the already short bars. Once I accidentally tried out a saw with large spikes, I was amazed how easy it was to operate on the stump and make the corners match, especially when the cutting position is not optimal.


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## 4x4American (Mar 12, 2013)

Samlock said:


> I know what you're talking about. I was told to throw the dogs away back in days because we didn't want to lose any of the already short bars. Once I accidentally tried out a saw with large spikes, I was amazed how easy it was to operate on the stump and make the corners match, especially when the cutting position is not optimal.



Yup, from my experiences here out east, i've found that alot of people feel shorter bars are all the rage...i'm 6'1" and I hate bending over as much as i can avoid it, i prefer the longer bars for that, and they allow me to run larger felling dogs without losing important room on the bar, I have more wiggle room. I like to run a 32" or a 28" on my 461...the extra weight just makes ya stronger anyways, and wouldn't ya rather be stronger than weaker


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## timberland ts (Mar 12, 2013)

Its like with everything some people get it and others dont. Ive had guys that get it in two weeks and guys that never get it. My guys wonder why myself and my other cutter seldom hit the ground or pinch a saw. You just feel it. Same as sharpening a saw.


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## roberte (Mar 12, 2013)

View attachment 284198


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## Trx250r180 (Mar 12, 2013)

roberte said:


> View attachment 284198




nice stump, i like the wet ground and the slough brush ,looks like my back yard :msp_thumbsup:


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## roberte (Mar 12, 2013)

trx250r180 said:


> nice stump, i like the wet ground and the slough brush ,looks like my back yard :msp_thumbsup:



we pretty much share the same back yard :cheers
View attachment 284199

so so stump...


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## RandyMac (Mar 12, 2013)

roberte said:


> we pretty much share the same back yard :cheers
> View attachment 284199
> 
> so so stump...



A bit more angle will reduce the fiber pull.


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## roberte (Mar 12, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> A bit more angle will reduce the fiber pull.



True. I also could have stayed in the cut for a couple more seconds before I pulled out.


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## GRTimberCO (Mar 13, 2013)

roberte said:


> True. I also could have stayed in the cut for a couple more seconds before I pulled out.



Is your nickname Big Ern?

[video=youtube;mnQSg2ZB0Tw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnQSg2ZB0Tw[/video]


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## roberte (Mar 13, 2013)

GRTimberCO said:


> Is your nickname Big Ern?
> 
> [video=youtube;mnQSg2ZB0Tw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnQSg2ZB0Tw[/video]



no, but the bait was took


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## Deleted member 110241 (Mar 13, 2013)

Isna said:


> Many of the guys I train do the same in the beginning. haven't found the perfect solution but I noticed putting one knee on the ground helps (instead of bending over). It is also much better to prevent back ache... Many employees have the same problem and I am open to any ideas to help solve it quickly. Worse is when they do a sloped face cut from one side of the tree and move to the other side of the tree to do the back cut, sloping the other way. They usually do end up "getting it" after a while.



I did the same thing, the nose of the bar pointing down. Was adviced to hold my right wrist straight and use the thumb to control throttle, instead of twisting your wrist to be able to rev with your finger.
Felt really strange at first but now it's second nature, the saw automatically sits level and my cuts are much cleaner.


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## bitzer (Mar 14, 2013)

056 kid said:


> I'll go weeks. Then all the sudden my back cuts start sloping down the far side. How annoying...



Yep, or you're hittin the corners day after day after day, to the point where you don't even check how clean your face is you just know. Then one day you're busting every damn face out thinkin wtf? 

I tend to go low on my backcuts when I'm moving to fast.


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## Isna (Mar 14, 2013)

Markus said:


> I did the same thing, the nose of the bar pointing down. Was adviced to hold my right wrist straight and use the thumb to control throttle, instead of twisting your wrist to be able to rev with your finger.
> Felt really strange at first but now it's second nature, the saw automatically sits level and my cuts are much cleaner.



Interesting approach. I am actually training a guy that just can't get it. He's a really hard worker but he just wants to go too fast and doesn't stop to think and look at what he is doing. I will try that on him.


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## 056 kid (Mar 14, 2013)

bitzer said:


> Yep, or you're hittin the corners day after day after day, to the point where you don't even check how clean your face is you just know. Then one day you're busting every damn face out thinkin wtf?
> 
> I tend to go low on my backcuts when I'm moving to fast.



Same here. Funny thing iv noticed, some of the best stumps iv made where when I was injured. Wonder how that works?


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## floyd (Mar 14, 2013)

Because you cannot get away from screw ups then so you are more careful.


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## Gologit (Mar 14, 2013)

I agree with Floyd...when you're hurt you move slower. That's okay, you don't want to cut faster than you can think anyway.


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## timberland ts (Mar 14, 2013)

Gologit is right on. We have had about six people killed with in 30 miles in the last year. Dont let your balls overload your brain.


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## RandyMac (Mar 14, 2013)

Every now and then, I would find a saw I couldn't make friends with, cut crooked every time.
My cousin MacKnothead cut true almost every time, perfect stumps, too bad he couldn't read trees worth a damn.


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## 056 kid (Mar 14, 2013)

floyd said:


> Because you cannot get away from screw ups then so you are more careful.



That makes sense.


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