# Rigging Scenario. Has anyone done this before?



## Kottonwood (Mar 10, 2011)

I am thinking of a way to transport limbs over a target to another tree and then lower them to the ground.

Could I set a port a wrap at the base of the tree I am rigging from and set a block in the top of that tree. I could then tie off the working end of the line to the tree being removed. I could use a sling to tie the limb off on the line with a trolley (or just a carabiner). The Groundman could put just enough slack in the line to give it a nice slide down to the rigging tree and then he could lower it by just letting out the line through the port a wrap. It would require a fairly long rope.

Would you use a tag line as well? Would this be the most efficient way of moving wood over a target when you are two low or far apart to swing it?


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## imagineero (Mar 11, 2011)

it's almost impossible to comment on this without seeing the site in person. Even photos can only show so much. A lot will depend on the relative height of the trees, what the target is, the distance between the two trees and the access at the far tree. 

Having said that, I do a lot of speedlining wherever I can. One crew I work with has a lot of excess labour, 5 guys and a reasonable size chipper and truck. The rest of the time it's me plus one or two groundies, so I try to minimise the labour requirement. I'll throw a few points in about my speedlining routine that are worth mentioning.

I have about 30 slings which I made myself, they are just 1/2" tape and good for about 2T. They are all 3' long and knotted with a tape knot which is just an overhand knot. I bought a big roll of the tape for cheap. They are all the same color and I have some that are double this length in a different color for easy identification. They all have a single snaplink style karabiner (no locking mechanism, just a spring loaded gate). I think you really need a lot of slings to be efficient speedlining.

The slings come in handy a lot of the time even when not speedlining, I usually carry at least a half dozen. Great for false crotches, extra tie in points etc etc. You can easily join a few together.

The speedline needs to be very easily and quickly adjustable for length and tension. if it cant be done in about 5 seconds (literally) then the system will be very inefficient. The adjustment should be done by the groundy. The way I hook mine up is generally to tie of the end in the tree I'm working in as high as possible, and have them drop it down to my level by slacking it off. This means I only have to rig once. It then goes to the target (might be the truck, or another tree). If its the truck, I leave a few branches on as a buffer. I tie it off usually pretty high, at least 15' off the ground. The tensioning system I use is a 5:1 off a yacht mainsheet system, its fast, very simple and incorporates a cleat. It has loads of mechanical advantage.

I use a double clip and cut method. this is harder to explain than to do. On my way up, I start slinging branches, so I'm ready to go. I cut 2 branches at a time - usually a big one first, then a smaller 'holder'. I sling both, clip them in, and the holder is clipped *farthest away from me* on the rope. So I cut the first branch, and it drops.... but it isnt going anywhere because the karabiner hangs up on the 'holder' biner. This is great because its very predictable, especially when working over powerlines, trees overhanging houses etc. The first branch drops into position and you can then make the call about when (or if) to release it on the run by cutting the holder. Very low stress and high safety. 

The branches need to be taken off the speedline before you will be able to clip the next ones on, unless you have very long slings or are constantly moving the speedline tie in on the tree. For this reason, it goes; groundy releases all tension from speedline, I clip 2 branches. groundy tensions speedline, I cut the big branch and it hangs on the holder. Maybe tension a little more at this stage. I cut the holder and away they go. I start planning and slinging my next 2 while groundy lowers speedline and removes branches, hanging slings all in one place for when I run out. repeat, repeat, repeat. No need to ever re-rig the speedline in my tree until it's time to take the top out.

You probably need a lot more tension on the speedline than you think, and it will drop a lot further than what you think. Test this out with a small branch. Note that as you tension the speedline more and more, the loads on the anchors approach infinity. Raise the target tree point higher if you need more clearance.

Even with 30 slings, you'll be surprised how quick you run out.... but that's 30 branches at a throw before you need to send the slings back up. When properly set up, this system is almost seamless, and you can cut as quick as you can sling, its very fast and efficient labour wise. If you can set your chipper up in the right spot you can do very big trees with just one climber and one groundy. The devil is in the details though, get it wrong and it slows down dramatically. A (much slower) variation on this theme is the chipper with winch used together with a porta wrap or friction drum. This is still a good way to go if you only have one or two branches to remove for property clearance and a fussy HO with a nice lawn.

The setup you are describing sounds like it can be done, but very slow and a lot of fussing. Have a look at old yarding systems, a lot of them are exactly what you describe. If you've only got a few branches then it might be worthwhile, but you'd need a fair bot of rope and rigging. The petzl website has some good examples of what you are describing. What you probably need is a mainline, a (perferably double) pulley, possibly a tagline, a hall line to bring the carriage back up, and maybe a second to take it down hill, and a lowering rope from the carriage. You'll need a good collection of biners, and some friction devices wouldnt hurt either. I can think of 2 or 3 different ways of rigging it off the top of my head but they are all dependant on height, labour and access to the rope over the run. None of them are elegant or fast.

Shaun


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## mpatch (Mar 11, 2011)

Would be too time consuming and if the wood is that low the line stretch will allow the target to be hit. Even with speedlining you need a decent amount of distance above the object you are trying to avoid. Rope stretches more than one would think when strung out over a long distance like when speedlining, don't forget that trees bend also.

One ? why are climbing up the back side of the tree in your avatar?


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## Kottonwood (Mar 11, 2011)

Shaun,

Thanks for all the tips on speedlining. I generally only use one groundy or maybe two on big stuff so I am always looking for ways to make it more effecient. I have thought about running a speedline many times but haven't done it yet. It would be nice if I had another climber around that has done one before. I only seem to get a decent size technical removal every few weeks, but I am definitely going to try speedlining next time I get a chance.

I use slings a lot, made some just like you are talking about out of 1" tubular webbing and I bring them up on every removal, can't imagine doing it without them.

If you ever get a chance can you send me a pic of your tensioning system? I was thinking of just using a port a wrap but from what you guys are saying it seems like the groundie won't be able to pull enough tension with that.

With the system I am talking about though you would not need as many lines as you think. As long as the block in the rigging tree is higher than the tip at the tree being removed the groundman could send your pulley back by lifting the rope. I am thinking as long as the groundie can control the rope well then the only line needed is the rigging line and maybe a tagline for safety. The other advantage I was thinking is that this would keep the limbs higher over a short distance.

There is a tree I just removed that I think this would have worked in (which is why I am bringing it up) I will try to post a video later today if I have a chance.

Patch, I wasn't going up when that pic was taken, I had actually finished my last cut and was about to head down.


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2011)

I have done this to some degree. I believe the loggers call it a 'high line'. Its tough to get set up and getting the high line tight enough can stress critical points of the rigging to much as well as the rigging itself if the load is large.
The loggers are using gear( cable rather than rope) designed for it and they are setting it up to use it a lot, not just for one little thing.
The few time I did it was to move some logs across the lawn. I used the winch on the truck as the high line set lower on the base of the trees I was using as an anchor. This isn't good for the anchor tree. It worked but was cumbersome, THANK HOLY JESUS FOR LITTLE LOADERS!
But if you think your senerio is condusive to setting up a high line then do it. It will be a good exercise though you might find you don't have a critical piece of gear or position that is needed to make the whole thing work.


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2011)

TreeCo said:


> A drift line may work better than a speed line in many situations. Place lowering lines and blocks in both trees.......catch the load in the tree you are cutting down......before lowering pull tight and wrap the rope in the drift tree. Lower the piece from the tree that caught the load and it will drift over toward the drift tree. Lower the load from the drift tree or from both trees or to any point between the two trees.


 
Good thinking. I think the drift line is more suitable for tree work than the high line.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Good thinking. I think the drift line is more suitable for tree work than the high line.


 
It is unless the tree your in is not rig worthy then the highline has merit. I sometimes like remote high point rigging tensioned with my winch then cut a very large section and let it swing to the ground the rope really does not have to carry the load it really just moves it in the fall.


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## treemandan (Mar 11, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It is unless the tree your in is not rig worthy then the highline has merit. I sometimes like remote high point rigging tensioned with my winch then cut a very large section and let it swing to the ground the rope really does not have to carry the load it really just moves it in the fall.


 
I was wondering where you've been and that sounds about right.


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## flushcut (Mar 11, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It is unless the tree your in is not rig worthy then the highline has merit. I sometimes like remote high point rigging tensioned with my winch then cut a very large section and let it swing to the ground the rope really does not have to carry the load it really just moves it in the fall.


 
Rope has spoken! nuff said


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## Kottonwood (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks for all the input. The driftline sounds like a great technique and I definitely want to try it out but from what I understand it takes two Groundmen to do it, right? I suppose I could use a small porty in the tree and control one line.

Here is a video for the tree I was thinking about this for. Word of caution the video is somewhat cheesy and was made as an advertisement for my website and googlemaps not to show rigging techniques.

YouTube - ‪Tree Removal, Denver and Boulder Colorado Arborist, Patriot Tree Company‬&rlm;


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## Kottonwood (Mar 11, 2011)

> THANK HOLY JESUS FOR LITTLE LOADERS!



Amen to that. I just bought a truck and chipper so I am strapped for now, but if this season treats me well a mini loader is next on my list.



> It will be a good exercise though you might find you don't have a critical piece of gear or position that is needed to make the whole thing work.



I'm always looking for a good excuse to buy more gear!


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## squad143 (Mar 11, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO,

I don't know if this is what your looking for, but hopefully this article helps you out.

http://allabouttrees.net/images/guides/climber/Setting_a_Speed-Line.pdf

I can't stress enough on how you have to be carefull with the load that a speedline or highline can put on their anchor points. Unless you have a very good understanding of rigging, it may be best to work with someone who has done this technique before.



Here is a pic. of a birch removal over a garage that I used a speedline on:









I was using the spar to attach the speedline to. A sling was attached to the stub and I would use a snapcut to then manually lower the chunk onto the speedline:








Here is a bunch of slings on a hemlock, ready to be sent down the speedline. Just have to remember the order to cut them.:msp_biggrin:


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## mpatch (Mar 11, 2011)

squad143 said:


> PatriotTreeCO,
> 
> I don't know if this is what your looking for, but hopefully this article helps you out.
> 
> ...


 
Why spend the time speedlining that Birch? Plenty small enough to cut and chuck wherever need be ie the wood line to the left of the garage? Looks to be way overcomplicating a simple removal.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2011)

I think he was saving his groundie a drag but I could be wrong!


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## squad143 (Mar 11, 2011)

mpatch said:


> Why spend the time speedlining that Birch? Plenty small enough to cut and chuck wherever need be ie the wood line to the left of the garage? Looks to be way overcomplicating a simple removal.


 
I speedline to save time or eliminate the risk of hitting targets.
Most of the brush was speedlined. Where I could, the spars were cut & chucked. Hard to tell from the pic, but it would be quite a throw, over my shoulder. The line was already in place for the brush, so why take a chance on a few sections of the spar?





ropensaddle said:


> I think he was saving his groundie a drag but I could be wrong!



That was an added benefit. I had one groundie and the speedline put the pieces right at the chipper.

Here is a pic. before we started:





And After:


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2011)

squad143 said:


> I speedline to save time or eliminate the risk of hitting targets.
> Most of the brush was speedlined. Where I could, the spars were cut & chucked. Hard to tell from the pic, but it would be quite a throw, over my shoulder. The line was already in place for the brush, so why take a chance on a few sections of the spar?
> 
> 
> ...


 
I almost always look for a way to speed line the greatest thing is not having to come down into a maze of brush lol. My wife is usually my groundie and it makes her job simple!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 11, 2011)

squad143 said:


> I speedline to save time or eliminate the risk of hitting targets.
> Most of the brush was speedlined. Where I could, the spars were cut & chucked. Hard to tell from the pic, but it would be quite a throw, over my shoulder. The line was already in place for the brush, so why take a chance on a few sections of the spar?
> 
> 
> ...


 
Good job man the birch seem brittle to me not quite as bad as willow or cottonwood but close


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## imagineero (Mar 12, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Shaun,
> If you ever get a chance can you send me a pic of your tensioning system? I was thinking of just using a port a wrap but from what you guys are saying it seems like the groundie won't be able to pull enough tension with that.


 
No Worries. You've already received some pretty good advice form other posters here with general speedlining tips, as well as some reinforcement of the rigging loads when overtensioning. To some extent you get a bit of a safety margin because trees flex, which reduces the load a bit. The tensioning system I use is a common mainsheet tensioning system from yachts, I dont have a pic of it but it looks like the 4:1 system shown here as system number 6;

Ronstan Sailboat Hardware World - Mainsheet Systems

In real life, this looks like this;

http://0.tqn.com/d/sailing/1/0/-/4/-/-/Mainsheet-tackle.jpg

You can pick these up second hand off ebay sometimes from people who have upgraded to fancier 4:1/8:1 combined systems or newer higher tech stuff. They are ait xpensive new. The bottom end of mine is attached to the tree by a sling, and the upper end attached to the speedline. If you have lots of devices its tempting to attach to the speedline by means of an toothed friction device (croll, ascender, jumar etc) but don't go this way because the toothed ascenders are only rated for a human load. At high loads they will strip the sheath straight off your rope. The friction style grabs (shunt, microcender etc) are better in this respect but still not really up to the task. The way to go is a prussik, that way you can easily adjust the position on the rope. 

Also note that at the bottom of the 4:1 system is a 'pull to release' style cleat. These are fast, simple and brilliant. Worth noting is that these systems will only work with 1/2" line at most, but prefer 10mm.

I've often wondered why more yachting blocks/technology haven't found their way into climbing. Yacht winches have dropped by in the guise of the GRCS et al. Rope handling has been a part of boating for so long that there's a gizmo to do every thing you could imagine, and then some. There are all combinations of pulleys in side by side, under/over, with and without beckets, cleats of all types, exotic light weight materials, and every load rating you'd ever want up to about 15T. The prices aren't any more expensive than conventional plain old crappy climbing blocks that we use. The downsides seem to be that most only go up to 1/2" (this is the line that i use, but many climbers are using 9/16 or bigger) you often cant open them (meaning you need to thread the rope all the way through) and a lot are rated only up to 1500kg unless you want to order in. They are pretty high tech and lighter than a wet fart. Here's an example of one;

https://whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=200&item=6690&intAbsolutePage=1

This one is only rated to 700kg SWL (1400kg breaking). multiply numbers by 2.2 to get pounds. They have heavier duty ones.

One block I've been toying with using are the automatic ratcheting style blocks like these;

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=200&item=8474&intAbsolutePage=5

The concept is pretty cool, they are automatically ratcheting with the ability to turn the auto ratchet feature off so they can be used as a standard pulley. When turned on, with small loads they freewheel, but with bigger loads they freewheel in one direction only and lock in the other to become a friction device with up to 15:1 holding power. The standard 'kick in' point of the ratchet is about 110lbs, but can be turned up or down. This would be a great thing for hand holding simple branch lower offs, the groundie can still pull up hard on the line easily, but with the branch on they get a big help holding it. Once the weight is off the pulley freewheels like normal.

Downside? apart from the cost (not too bad), the working load is only rated to about 700lbs with a breaking point at 3000lbs. I don't think they make a higher rated one. 700lbs sounds not too bad, but remember that loads are at least doubled at the pulley ie. if you have a 200lb branch on the line, the groundie will have to put 200lbs on his side of the line to hold it adding up to 400lbs at the pulley. When you are dropping branches the loads can quickly get bigger. I think for smaller stuff this is well within the 700lb working limit though, so I'm going to pick one up some time soon. They also only take 1/2" line. Every other pulley I have is at least 2t, and my main lowering pulley rated to 3t with a 9t breaking point and takes up to 1" line. 

Shaun


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## beastmaster (Mar 12, 2011)

I speedline a lot my self when I can, but some times on heavy wood I set up a pulley in a other tree up high, and then secure the other end with a running bowland (sp?)under where Im going to make my cut. Using a sling and a clevis tie off the chunk and hook it to the rope. So its like doing a dead drop and catch with out the shock.(the shock being distributed between the two tie in Points and the stretch of the rope) 
Then a grounds man can slowing lower the rope and the piece will slowly slide down the rope away from the tree. Slide the bowland knot down and do another 
You can get pretty close to a roof and safely control some big pieces and it doesn't take but one other person.
Some times you can hook up a sling on each end of a piece and send it down vertical and get more clearance on a speedline.
Every situation is different and changes as you remove parts of the tree, so you need to be versatile some times. Beastmaster


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## Kottonwood (Mar 12, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I speedline a lot my self when I can, but some times on heavy wood I set up a pulley in a other tree up high, and then secure the other end with a running bowland (sp?)under where Im going to make my cut. Using a sling and a clevis tie off the chunk and hook it to the rope. So its like doing a dead drop and catch with out the shock.(the shock being distributed between the two tie in Points and the stretch of the rope)
> Then a grounds man can slowing lower the rope and the piece will slowly slide down the rope away from the tree. Slide the bowland knot down and do another
> You can get pretty close to a roof and safely control some big pieces and it doesn't take but one other person.
> Some times you can hook up a sling on each end of a piece and send it down vertical and get more clearance on a speedline.
> Every situation is different and changes as you remove parts of the tree, so you need to be versatile some times. Beastmaster


 
Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking about, glad to hear that someone else has done it before. 

So do you use a port a wrap on the bottom for the groundman or are you using some other friction system?

PS I believe it's "bowline"


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## Kottonwood (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks again Imagineero.

I usually rig on a 5/8 line, though I just got 200 ft of 1/2 in stablebraid that I haven't used yet.

I definitely agree that the prussic is the way to go as far a a friction system. I can't think of any mechanical devices that I would trust to hold that sort of load.

What type of line do you use for a prussic? Definitely need something strong for the forces it has to handle.


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## squad143 (Mar 12, 2011)

I perfer prussics over a rope grab in most cases. If overloaded a prussic will slip, where as a rope grab will bite into the rope and desheath it. (or worse).

When anchoring the base of my speedline, I usually terminate it on a portawrap. I'll use a seperate 3:1 haul system to tension the line and then take up the speedline slack in the porty and tie it off. Then I'll take the tension out of the haul system.

Major advantage of using the porty is that when you need to release tension on the speedline, it can be done quickly and safely. (under control).

Sherrill sells a fiddle block kit for adding mechanical advantage: Fiddle Block Kit : SherrillTree Tree Care Equipment

However, at $300, I'll keep using the many pulleys that I have.

I find that I never have to use more than a 3:1 MA when tensioning my speedlines.

For tensioning lines, I perfer the VT knot (french prussic) using beeline with eyes. This knot grabs both sides of the rope and is easy to undo, even when heavily loaded.


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## mpatch (Mar 12, 2011)

And After:






is the job complete in that pic?


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## squad143 (Mar 12, 2011)

mpatch said:


> is the job complete in that pic?


 
Except for stacking the wood that is beside the garage and the small hanger, Yes.


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## beastmaster (Mar 12, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking about, glad to hear that someone else has done it before.
> 
> So do you use a port a wrap on the bottom for the groundman or are you using some other friction system?
> 
> PS I believe it's "bowline"


 
It depends on the size of the wood. When we have a pulley up high and removing heavy pieces we'll use a hobbs devise. Sometimes I'll just have the guys hold the rope if I'm just speedlining some small stuff, or have them tie a knotless truckers hitch at the base of a tree.(some times I tie off to the truck)
A porta wrap works good , also a come- a- long with a prussic will work in a pinch .
Sometimes you can set it up, and not even be tied into the tree your working on but to an other leader or near by tree, so when the piece is cut, it's slingshoted off and out and hangs off in space between the two attachment points tell its lowered down staying in the middle of the two.
Having the pulley higher then the tie in point has its place, but its not as fast as speedlining. It works pretty good if your craning off an other tree and start running out of room to swing, you just tie it off and your set to go.
Thanks, of course it "Bowline", Its been a hard week. Beastmaster


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## imagineero (Mar 13, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Thanks again Imagineero.
> What type of line do you use for a prussic? Definitely need something strong for the forces it has to handle.



There's a read worthy report here;

www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/.../03_Tests_Equipment_BWRS.pdf

where a local australian rescue crew got ahold of a load cell and did a bunch of tests on what weight you can hold with different devices, fail points for different devices and different types of prusiks. It's not exactly riveting, but worth a flick through. I've traditionally used 5mm or 6mm exotics on my 12mm because I always think anything bigger wont bite, but it depends on the prussik not you choose i guess. In their tests when the 8mm held it did (obviously) hold more. There are other users on AS who have a lot more experience and knowledge about prusik materials than I do. I remember from reading that some prusik materials are very grabby, so maybe that opens up the whole 8mm route a bit more, and if you are using 9/16 line then 8mm is definitely more of a possibility.

JUst remember that you'll get theoreticall double the breaking strain of the cordage used if you use a standard prusik knot. In reality, it's a bit less due to the loss of strength at the knot, but if you have a SWL of say, 1500lbs then with a looped prussik you could expect about 2500lbs. THe results of the tests show that the prussik will fail at lower than the SWL of the cordage though.

Shaun


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## imagineero (Mar 13, 2011)

the above link somehow got crossed up with another one I had and doesn't work anyway ;-)

The correct link to the research pdf should have been;

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...sg=AFQjCNH6Cu5f_Vm_RknknFWm_8PnLaQO7w&cad=rja

The interesting thing was that the ascenders mostly passed their rated loads, despite being 20 years old in some cases, while the karabiners failed at much less, in one case at little more than half the rated load (!).

Another good research paper from the same bunch shows slip and fail points for many types of hitches and cordage combinations including the distal and VT. Was interesting reading for those who climb on hitches. I climb in devices personally, so it was pretty much just academic for me;

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...sg=AFQjCNFhL-zn1dgzVz915sMmc-w4dHHFWQ&cad=rja

Shaun


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## mpatch (Mar 13, 2011)

squad143 said:


> Except for stacking the wood that is beside the garage and the small hanger, Yes.


 
that's what I was wondering, if you saw the hanger.


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## squad143 (Mar 13, 2011)

mpatch said:


> that's what I was wondering, if you saw the hanger.


 
Good eyes.

I usually try and take care of hangers on the way down, but I believe with this one it was too far from the spar. A throw ball on some thin line is all it takes to pull them down...... usually:msp_laugh:




ropensaddle said:


> Good job man the birch seem brittle to me



Thanks Rope. The biggest thing I dislike about Birch is they seem to die from the top down. A few times I've found them "soft" a lot further from the tips than I thought they were when I quoted the jobs. This can turn an easy job into something more than I had planned. I've since learned to factor this in when quoting them.


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## squad143 (Mar 13, 2011)

Here are a couple of videos I posted a while back. 

Both of these trees were on the same property (same day).

The trees angled over the rocks/water. 

Most of the branches were speedlined and the blocks chunked out, either by directional pull line or cut and chuck.

[video=youtube;DXhIB8hRcXE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXhIB8hRcXE[/video]

[video=youtube;zC6ptlpH0r8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC6ptlpH0r8[/video]


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## flushcut (Mar 13, 2011)

Nice, so who got their feet wet going after those chunks in the water?


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