# To sue or not to sue, a morale dilemma.



## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

*Warning: this thread has a low entertainment value. 
It gets a bit more substantial on page 4. But still not much fun.*

kid hurts himself at school. in college actually. the kid screwed up and the teacher screwed up.

I was livid when I heard this story, still am. I’m not a big fan of higher education, these schools charge obscene money to “teach” kids skills that the kids probably don’t need and won’t use. Then this same kid ends up starting his or her life 50k in debt with a useless degree. To some extent you have to blame the kids and their parents, but to me there is also a lot of false advertising going on, and for that the institutions of higher learning should be held accountable. 

Enough ranting, I’m angry because the kid is in school, this should be a place where safety comes before anything else. There is absolutely no reason for things to be otherwise. All of their deadlines are self imposed and there is no production figure that must be reached. 

But will there be an OSHA investigation? Will the safety meeting record of this school be scrutinized? How about their disciplinary records? How many students were counseled for not following safety protocol? And everything else that an OSHA inspector should look at. It makes me angry that a teacher would screw up, they should be trained to handle an accident like this. 

My question is should the kid sue the school? I would, but as I said earlier, I am quite biased against higher education. So I come here looking for some kind of morale direction. Am I over reacting, what do people here think? 

Thanks for your time CTM


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## Newfie (May 2, 2006)

Sue for what?

Being a retard and cutting his finger off? Not picking up the piece of his own finger before running around?

Where in your rant is any mention of the kids responsibility (and he is certainly mature enough to be responsible if he is in college)?


Maybe I should go back to school and do something stupid or accidental and sue the college. That'll get me rich quick.

WTF does our society feel the need to make our own mistakes and accidents someone elses financial responsibility?


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## Treeman14 (May 2, 2006)

No, the school should not be sued. The kid cut himself, it was an accident, no one else was involved. It really bothers me that people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Everyone wants to sue someone. Besides, what would be the basis for his suit. I'm sure the school has insurance to cover his medical bills, what more does he want?


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## rb_in_va (May 2, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> My question is should the kid sue the school? I would, but as I said earlier, I am quite biased against higher education. So I come here looking for some kind of morale direction. Am I over reacting, what do people here think?



ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!

Yes you are overreacting. It is this sue-happy culture that is to blame for sky high insurance rates. Is it the school's fault the kid cut himself? I remember in shop class one time a kid sanded part if his fingertip off and the teacher yelled at him for bleeding on the floor. How times have changed, eh?


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## Newfie (May 2, 2006)

Treeman14 said:


> I'm sure the school has insurance to cover his medical bills, what more does he want?




The winning lottery ticket seems to be the eventual aim.


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## b1rdman (May 2, 2006)

I would agree with the others. It seems that your bias against higher education may be stonger that even you imagine.


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## Newfie (May 2, 2006)

And why be biased against higher education?


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## sawn_penn (May 2, 2006)

I always liked the sound of the New Zealand system. You can't sue someone over an injury. They have a nationwide accident compensation system that ensures that people who are disabled can have an OK (OK, not fantastic) life.

Oh, and if gross negligence caused the injury in the first place they'll put someone in gaol.


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

Fair enough. I can own the fact that I may be overreacting, I thought as much. 

But to elaborate a little, the thing that doesn’t sit well with me is that kids go to school to get trained, they pay big bucks to do so. And yet in this situation the student cut his finger off, so there is either a problem with training protocol at this school, or the kid was negligent. 

A teacher became involved and another mistake was made (forgetting to bring the cut off finger to the ER) so there was another instance of either lack of training or negligence, this time on the part of the teacher.

Now law suits that revolve around negligence are a horrible drain on society, and are wrong in any context. I.E. If I cut my hand through improper use of a chainsaw I have only myself to blame. 

But lawsuits that address procedural error help to make procedures better. I.E. if the chain brake on my saw fails to work properly because the manufacturer switched to a cheaper material then a lawsuit will help them to see the error of their ways and hopefully to fix the problem. But if there is no lawsuit then the manufacturing corporation really has no reason to fix the chain brake.

As for overpriced liability insurance, I don’t really see it. I pay US$1400 per annum for US$ 1 million coverage. And last time I called a temp labor place it was $14 per hour per man, which included taxes, workmans comp, and whatever else they are required to provide.

Its true that healthcare is expensive, but I think that is because there are a lot of people who require medical assistance to exist, not so much because of malpractice suits


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

> “I'm sure the school has insurance to cover his medical bills, what more does he want? ”





Newfie said:


> The winning lottery ticket seems to be the eventual aim.
> __________________
> Mike”.




It works out well for big corporations if many people believe that way. It helps them to avoid costly court cases. And it is true that many people are out there looking for a looto ticket. Those people are wrong and vile and do great damage to society at large. But institutions must be held accountable for their actions and their procedures, and civil suits are not a bad way to do this. The alternative is government regulation, which allows to much opportunity for corruption.


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## jmack (May 2, 2006)

Newfie said:


> Sue for what?
> 
> Being a retard and cutting his finger off? Not picking up the piece of his own finger before running around?
> 
> ...


 ayuh


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## jmack (May 2, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Fair enough. I can own the fact that I may be overreacting, I thought as much.
> 
> But to elaborate a little, the thing that doesn’t sit well with me is that kids go to school to get trained, they pay big bucks to do so. And yet in this situation the student cut his finger off, so there is either a problem with training protocol at this school, or the kid was negligent.
> 
> ...


 maybe he was jacked up on redbull pulling an all-nighter


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

jmack said:


> maybe he was jacked up on redbull pulling an all-nighter



Perhaps that is the case, but without an investigation we will not know what circumstances led to this unfortunate event. And the procedural error may never be corrected.

Is there a better way to force institutions to inspect their procedures and to correct any oversights?

Maybe the responsibility for this event rests solely with the student; in that case there is no need for the school to alter its training program. But it is not possible for us to make that evaluation here; we do not have nearly enough data. 

To dismiss the possibility of a legal investigation and subsequent law suit based on the idea that ‘all suits are wrong’ is probably premature.


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## Newfie (May 2, 2006)

personal responsibility can get us a long way.


Should you be required to pass an emt course and accident rescue course as a pre-requisite to getting your drivers license? What if you happened upon an accident and didn't know what to do but tried to help anyways? Lets sue you for negligence and sue the state for not making sure you were prepared for any traffic mishap.

I still don't see how the school is responsible for an adult having an accident, regardless of osha or any other kind of investigation. We are talking about an exacto knife not a table saw or welding rig. Common sense, not specialized training is required for use of an exacto knife. Where is the negligence?

Should the dining facilities have special training procedures for the employees in the event that some moron pokes himself in the eye with a fork or stabs himself trying to cut his food?

Accidents are usually just that. Sh!t happens.


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

Newfie said:


> personal responsibility can get us a long way.
> 
> 
> Should you be required to pass an emt course and accident rescue course as a pre-requisite to getting your drivers license? What if you happened upon an accident and didn't know what to do but tried to help anyways? Lets sue you for negligence and sue the state for not making sure you were prepared for any traffic mishap.
> .



Most states have a good Samaritan law that protects people who stop to help out in an emergency. One of my first aid instructors mentioned that fact, I haven’t seen any hard information on such a thing.



Newfie said:


> I still don't see how the school is responsible for an adult having an accident, regardless of osha or any other kind of investigation. We are talking about an exacto knife not a table saw or welding rig. Common sense, not specialized training is required for use of an exacto knife. Where is the negligence?.



An exacto knife is a tool that requires training to properly use, it is no different from a table saw. If the school gave him the knife, told him to use it, and failed to train him properly then the school is surely bears some responsibility for the accident. 



Newfie said:


> Should the dining facilities have special training procedures for the employees in the event that some moron pokes himself in the eye with a fork or stabs himself trying to cut his food?



everyone has to walk and eat and bath. i think it is reasonable to assume that adults can do these things on there own. So no, there is no need train people how to walk etc. As for employees of a cafeteria, they should minimally be trained in the Heimlich maneuver, and someone with first aid training should be on hand. 



Newfie said:


> Accidents are usually just that. Sh!t happens.



In my experience "accidents" require a string of poor judgment, improper training, dangerous circumstance, and some bad luck. If you remove any one of those elements the “accident” is often completely avoided.


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## Newfie (May 2, 2006)

Its attitudes likes yours that think there is some sort of moral dilemna here that is part of the problem this country has with responsibilty. Awful juvenile thinking for a supposed responsible adult.

Sue me for my opinion, because it's not my fault anyways and I can always rationalize it being someone elses fault.

I've used an exacto knife since I was 10 and I never cut myself never mind slice off a finger. No special training program or manual involved. Its a hobby knife for crying out loud.

I doubt you'll find the affirmation that you really came looking for.


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## Dadatwins (May 2, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Almost unbelievable.
> 
> I hope this case gets thrown out of court.



Unbelivable that someone should even have the thought to consider suing a school over something so ridiculus. If a school hands out knives to a bunch of kindergarten kids and one gets hurt, its a different story, but as I understand this was a young adult who had an accident. 
These are the threads that I miss Rocky J responses on. :angry2:


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

Training and procedure are part of a safe workplace. Enforcement of those protocols are part of what make up a sustainable, competitive, industry. 

I am flirting with the idea that institutions should be accountable for training. Its not a new idea.

When a climber falls out of a tree and paralyzes himself from the neck down who exactly assumes responsibility? It is certainly not the climber, he will probably never make any money again, so he is incapable of being responsible or accountable for his actions. 

Maybe his wife or family will take on that responsibility. The constant requirements of care, the mortgage, the medical bills, the kids. Maybe the hospital will sue the homeowner or some other bystander. Maybe the wife has health coverage, and her health care provider will have to pay for climber for the rest of his life.

When my grandfather was a young man health care consisted of amputations and faith healing. In those days a man was responsible for his actions, if an arm was lost you had to get by without it, that or die. In that situation an individual is indeed accountable.

Today the only option is the best medical care available. We do not leave the weak and damaged alone to fend for themselves, to take responsibility for their actions. Rather we are all part of a connected whole. Like some massive human index fund the fate of one of us affects all of the others.

You say that law suits make insurance rates and products more expensive. I counter that it is medical costs associated with poor training that make insurance rates and products more expensive. The truth is probably in between.


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## CoreyTMorine (May 2, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Almost unbelievable.
> 
> I hope this case gets thrown out of court.




its not in court treeco, purely hypothetical. I was just curious is all.


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## stihlatit (May 2, 2006)

I'm thinking you got your answer to your over reaction as everyone before me has said it all. First words out sue!!!!! thats what peeves me more then anything.


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## BlueRidgeMark (May 3, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Perhaps that is the case, but without an investigation we will not know what circumstances led to this unfortunate event.



Here's a weird idea - how about we have the investigation before we decide if somebody should be sued?


Just a thought....



CoreyTMorine said:


> And the procedural error may never be corrected..




What procedural error would that be? The one you have ASSUMED prior to any investigation?


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## BlueRidgeMark (May 3, 2006)

Newfie said:


> Where in your rant is any mention of the kids responsibility (and he is certainly mature enough to be responsible if he is in college)?




Well, he's OLD enough. Whether he's mature or not is another question.  


I guess we'll find that out when we find out if he sues or accepts responsibility for making a mistake.


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## Newfie (May 3, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Well, he's OLD enough. Whether he's mature or not is another question.
> 
> 
> I guess we'll find that out when we find out if he sues or accepts responsibility for making a mistake.




I stand corrected. But you know what I was getting at.


I think he's got a pretty strong case. His parents brought him into this world without his prior consent. He was duped and probably forced to go to college and an art college at that. Some ill-willed instructor no doubt made him do this assignment and put some sort of unreasonable deadline on handing it in. He was probably rushing to get it done because his friends made him go out partying instead of doing his work.

We could play this silly game all day with BS excuses for why someone else should be financially punished for an accident.


Of course we don't have evn the most basic of facts, such as how did the moron in question manage to cut his finger off?:deadhorse:


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## PUclimber (May 3, 2006)

Well i am part of the higher education group. I am currently a junior at Purdue and our prof. that teaches us to climb is very well respected in the industry and has many connections. He's held many offices in the ISA and is a certified arborist. He makes sure that all ansi standards are followed and makes sure that everyone is following safety procedures at all time.


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## trevmcrev (May 5, 2006)

sounds like he just F:censored:"D UP!!

TREV


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## Newfie (May 5, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> sounds like he just F:censored:"D UP!!
> 
> TREV


 That answer is no longer acceptable in the US and will probably get you sued.

Someone, somewhere, somehow, let him down and deserves to pay dearly.:biggrinbounce2:


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## coydog (May 5, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> ...When a climber falls out of a tree and paralyzes himself from the neck down who exactly assumes responsibility? It is certainly not the climber, he will probably never make any money again, so he is incapable of being responsible or accountable for his actions...


you better believe it's his responsibility, who has to carry on and pick up the pieces may be another story, but the event up to him falling out of the tree is his responsibility.we all take that responsibility into our own hands every time we work a tree or start a power tool or get behind the wheel or get out of bed in general, that responsibility is what keeps us safe. All an instructor or employer can do is show someone the proper way to do something, whether they can execute the task without hurting themselves is ultimately up to them. I don't see the link to this story, so I don't know what happened or if there was or was not proper training involved, It must have gotten edited out of the threads or something.


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## Newfie (May 5, 2006)

There is no link to the story and the author didn't even have all of the facts when he started the thread.


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## TimberMcPherson (May 6, 2006)

Nothing like litigation to make the world a safer and better place, its made people take responsibility for there actions, brought communities closer together and has fairly judged how well people have shown care.

Yeah right.


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## Stumper (May 6, 2006)

Mike, You are such a right thinking individual-it must really chap your hind cheeks to hear over and over on your local news "Senator Kennedy" and "Senator Kerry".opcorn:


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## SilentElk (May 6, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> .... And yet in this situation the student cut his finger off, so there is either a problem with training protocol at this school, or the kid was negligent.
> 
> A teacher became involved and another mistake was made (forgetting to bring the cut off finger to the ER) so there was another instance of either lack of training or negligence, this time on the part of the teacher.
> 
> ...



Wow... every post of your makes me shake my head.

So you are saying that the teacher should have been trained on how not forget fingers and other body parts? Come on! The kid cut it off himself, the teacher helps and the teacher is liable because some dumb kid cut off his finger and the kid forgets to bring HIS, not the teachers, finger along? Pleazeee... It's not like it it's the teachers finger. It's the kids. Does the kid have a problem forgetting where he puts gloves and shoes too? Here's a good idea, next time you fall go sue the shoe store for not training you how to walk.


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## SilentElk (May 6, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> its not in court treeco, purely hypothetical. I was just curious is all.



I think this is alot more than hypothetical. You really think the kid should sue and attempt to take the money and suspect you know in your heart it is probably the wrong thing. Of course, the next logical step is to post this on an internet arborist site and hopefully get some moral and ethical support to make you feel better about yourself. Best of luck.



CoreyTMorine said:


> My question is should the kid sue the school? I would, but as I said earlier, I am quite biased against higher education.


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## Sprig (May 6, 2006)

I may be off base here but at what point in life does one take responsibilities
for their own actions?

opcorn:


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## Treeman14 (May 6, 2006)

Sprig said:


> I may be off base here but at what point in life does one take responsibilities
> for their own actions?
> 
> opcorn:



Good question. I was going to answer, but the truth is, I'm not sure.


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## Newfie (May 6, 2006)

Stumper said:


> Mike, You are such a right thinking individual-it must really chap your hind cheeks to hear over and over on your local news "Senator Kennedy" and "Senator Kerry".opcorn:



I used to think I was a pretty liberal guy, mostly back in my care free college days. Now I don't mind helping my fellow man and all that jazz, but it does get tiresome when they want to fix healthcare on my dime alone and continue to allow insurance companies to raise premiums and make great profits while doctors leave the state and hospitals go bankrupt. If Fat Teddy doesn't croak soon, everyone in Mass will have health coverage but nowhere to use it. Don't even get me started on the organized crime syndicate called the pharmeceutical industry.


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## LightningLoader (May 8, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> As for overpriced liability insurance, I don’t really see it. I pay US$1400 per annum for US$ 1 million coverage. And last time I called a temp labor place it was $14 per hour per man, which included taxes, workmans comp, and whatever else they are required to provide.



 You're liability insurance is still cheap because you haven't been sued by a bunch of idiots yet an had your rates jacked up and your insurance dropped 3 different times. 

As an equipment manufacturer this thread almost makes my head explode. Every year we get sued by somebody that did something that we told them not to do, and we pay dearly. Imagine if you had to pay out $200,000 a year (just about every other year) for something that wasn't your fault...what your insurance rates would be like? 
:censored: :censored: :censored:


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## spacemule (May 21, 2006)

I find it an interesting stance, to say the least--railing on higher education and then desiring a kid to utilize professionals (lawyers, judges, doctors, etc.) to effect some kind of "procedural" change. Seems a bit hypocritical. Perhaps he's right though. Higher education gives "useless" certifications. Why should doctors, lawyers, judges, and other professionals have to go to some over hyped, over priced school? :biggrinbounce2: Why should people know the difference between "morale" and "moral?" lol


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## sawn_penn (May 22, 2006)

I find it interesting that people who want to sue are interested in talking about their rights and others responsibilities.

What about your responsibilities and the rights of the teacher?

When demanding our rights we must consider who should fairly shoulder the burden of responsibility.

Not who could, but who should.


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## coveredinsap (May 24, 2006)

It was just a finger...which is easy to forget in the heat of the moment. And besides, you've got 9 more.
Now, if it was a penis....now there's something you don't want to leave behind.


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## Husky372 (May 24, 2006)

This is got to be one of the stupidest people in the world if he needs training to use an exacto knife. Maybe the world would be better off if he would have been left there to bleed out so as to not contaminate the human population with his total stupidity anymore. I am so sick and tired of ignorant fools who feel that hey I am to stupid to watch out for my own well being so I think i'll sue. Maybe he should sue his parents for not giving him the sense god gave a rat or cockroach or any other living thing. 

One things for sure he will be more aware next time.


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## boo (May 24, 2006)

coveredinsap said:


> Now, if it was a penis....now there's something you don't want to leave behind.


yep..... just another angle
what if it was your daughter and her finger could'nt be re-attached because it wasn't there? 
trauma?
should someone have been contacted that DID know what to do?
does the school have a nurse?
I try to look at it from all sides and angles before I cut it > or pass judgement.
as far as the courts and justice system.... they work together every day with insurance companies. another one of those organized crime thoughts as mentioned above?
things that make ya go hmmmmmmmm


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## BlueRidgeMark (May 24, 2006)

boo said:


> I try to look at it from all sides and angles before I cut it > or pass judgement.




Kinda hard to do when the only ''facts" we have are that somebody got his finger cut off at a school.


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## Treeman14 (May 25, 2006)

spacemule said:


> ... Why should people know the difference between "morale" and "moral?" lol


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## LightningLoader (May 30, 2006)

spacemule said:


> Why should people know the difference between "morale" and "moral?" lol



That's been bugging the heck out of me too. Guess that's really what this thread is about though, not "morals", but "morale." As in I should do what will make me feel better and raise my morale. Ahhh the truth that lies in Freudian slips...


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

Well, that seems to have struck a raw nerve . It’s true that the courts can make some seemingly outlandish rulings, much to the detriment of society at large. Judges are not infallible, they screw up just like everyone else. But judges are also competitive, they probably censure and review one another, over time this should lead to equilibrium. I have faith that it will.

Ira once said something about having faith that the universe would fulfill his needs. I have grown to share this sentiment. True, sometimes we get screwed or hurt, but life goes on and we rebuild or restructure to meet the demands of the new system.

Many voices here jumped all over my post, without asking questions or taking some time to look more thoroughly at the question. This reflex is exactly what causes people to jump on burning bags of dog ????. Do what you feel is right, my feet are clean. 

However there are some misconceptions on this thread that I would like to set straight.

1)	This is a story I heard second or third hand. I don’t even know the participants, I’m not trying to convince anyone to sue anyone else. 

The idea may not sit well with some folks, but Tort law is a form of oversight in the States; furthermore it the only system of regulation that I see investigating this particular incident. Some law suits are wrong; this fact does not mean that all suits are wrong. Many of the safety devices in our world have come about because of Tort law; Chain brakes, safety bars on the chipper, safer electrical outlets, seat belts, are a few possibilities.

My thought was that a suit filed against the school would force an evaluation of safety protocols that I feel are flawed. I may be wrong on both counts, I am often wrong, which is why I spend time asking questions and simulating possibilities. It’s a lot easier to change your mind before you make the back cut.

2)	“Morale” is a misspelling, I meant moral. I’m not really laughing, but it is kind of a funny mistake, sue me. 


So if you want to attack my argument you can go after;

Premise #1) Safety training at the school is inadequate.
Premise #2) A law suit is the best way to force evaluation and subsequent restructure of the school’s safety policy.

Or, you can try and prove that premise 1 and 2 do not lead to my conclusion;

Conclusion) The student is morally obligated to sue the school, otherwise more students may be hurt because of a flawed training program. 

A few stabs at Premise #1 are interesting, foremost is the idea that “personal responsibility” can get us a long way. I completely disagree with this statement. I spent 6 years in the US Navy, and the rest of my life in the trees, my personal experience is that people take responsibility for their actions up to the point where they are morally justified. Beyond that point they start to make excuses. 

A prime example is my buddy “Logger man”, he makes all of his guys wear hardhats, eye pro, saw pants, gloves, no loose clothing around the chipper (incidentally he does this partly because he is afraid of getting sued) but get this, none of his saws have chain brakes! LOL! I asked him about this once, he say’s “god damn things are a nuisance, they didn’t have ‘em when I was learning, they don’t need ‘em now.”

A combination of the Tort system and personal responsibility make “Logger man” act in the best interest of his crew, to the point where he feels morally justified. But once he is justified and when the situation goes beyond “Logger mans” training or experience he starts to make excuses.

If any one can shed a different perspective on this I would be very appreciative. I love training and safety, only a little less so than tree work. 

Thanks for your time and consideration of this matter.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> What a bunch of horse pucky!
> 
> Wonder how sharp the knives and forks are in the cafeteria and what kind of training program do they have if any?
> 
> ...




Fair enough TreeCo, can we look at another example?

What about a 27 year old treeguy using a handsaw for the first time? Is there any training required?

Because i gotta tell ya, i cut the heck out of my knee that first year. 2 or 3 times i had my left foot proped up on a branch, which put my left knee in the follow-through if i was cutting on the left side. No stitches or tendon damage so it took a while for me to learn not to do that. 

I guess your right in that i never thought about sueing anyone, but it is a hard, dangerous way to learn something.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

What about a 23 year old with a valid drivers license but no experience in a truck? Would you expect him or her to just jump in the chip truck and get it to the job? Or would you make them ride shotgun a few times and give some hints, question them about their driving habits, maybe run some mental simulations?

How about an experienced rope man who has never used a type 3 port-a-wrap? Are you just going to head up the tree and assume he can “figure it out”? 

To me these situations do not seem all that different from the student with the exacto knife, or the teacher who became involved in managing the situation. In all circumstances training is required to make sure things are done safely / correctly.


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## b1rdman (Jun 20, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Because i gotta tell ya, i cut the heck out of my knee that first year. 2 or 3 times i had my left foot proped up on a branch, which put my left knee in the follow-through if i was cutting on the left side. No stitches or tendon damage so it took a while for me to learn not to do that.



Let me make sure I'm getting this right... 

You injured yourself MORE THAN ONCE performing that same task, in the same manner, with the same tool (a hand saw)? 

How much blood did you loose before you figured out that it's not always someone elses fault?

Were you the college student who couldn't use an exacto knife?

When did you get the "training" that prevented you from sawing into your leg?

or 

Are you still sawing into your leg saying "Geez...I gotta gets me some of that saw training"?


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Corey I would think cutting yourself the first time would have been a good lesson to not have your knee in the follow through path.
> 
> What possible training could an employer give that would have prevented you from cutting yourself a second and third time if bleeding from your first cut wasn't enough to teach you a lesson?



When I'm showing kids how to work in the tree I make them keep their flip line down low, that way they have to push up with there legs. This does a few things; it strengthens their legs, and it forces them to keep their legs below their butt, and out of the follow-through. I also tell them of my own experience, and how I cut myself. 

Granted I didn’t hire on as a knob, and it is unlikely that anyone ever considered the notion that I never used a handsaw. Ownership of those events is completely on me, and fortunately, because damages were limited to a sore knee, I was also able to take responsibility for my mistakes.

I was learning and seeing so much new stuff that first year out west that it took awhile for me to get over my bad habits.

But this is my point exactly, it is dangerous to assume that a person knows how to do something safely. Even something that is common and easy to most people.


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## b1rdman (Jun 20, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Ownership of those events is completely on me, and fortunately, because damages were limited to a sore knee, I was also able to take responsibility for my mistakes.
> .




What does this mean? 

Wouldn't you still be responsible if the injury were more serious?


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## Ollbuster (Jun 20, 2006)

So were do you start the training, walking 101. A certain level of common sense is expected of all people at certain times in there lives. If I gave my five year old son an exacto knife without supervision, close supervision I would expect he would cut his finger off. The idea that we have to assume everyone is an idiot is ridiculous. Great site bye the way.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Wouldn't you still be responsible if the injury were more serious?



Good question. Let’s look at the definition of responsibility; 

Responsibility, n.;1. the condition, quality, fact, or instance of being responsible, answerable, accountable, or liable, as for a person, trust, office or debt. 

The source of this definition is Webster’s New 20th Century (Unabridged) 2nd Edition, which was printed in 1964. 

In our modern day, no fault, self serving world, the assumption seems to be made that “responsibility” means “moral responsibility”. 

In a situation where one is “morally responsible” that person has to shoulder the guilt of a poor decision, and subsequent damages caused by said decision. However, as we were all taught by our mothers and teachers, if you accept responsibility and say “I’m sorry”, all will be well.

If we take the older definition of “responsibility” then any damages from a poor decision must be accounted for, losses must be measured and made good. 

In answer to your question; suppose I had really hurt myself, to the tune of 35,000 USD. They would ship me of to the hospital and patch me up, but there is no way that I could repay the thirty five thousand dollars. I did not at the time have the wherewithal to be accountable, or responsible, for my action. That is true of most people who are severely or permanently damaged. So the insurance companies and the government foot the bill, not the injured party. 

This is why law suits get so infuriating , because the person who directly caused the accident is so often unable to make good on the damages. In our world it matters not that said damages were received bodily by the very person who caused them. There is still the matter of medical expense and disability, and at the end of the day the scales must balance.

This may scream “unfair” or “wrong”, it may make your skin crawl and bring about a flash of nausea; but this truth is axiomatic. “Loss within a closed system must be made up from within the system, or the system will die.” It is a direct corollary of the 1rst or 2nd law of thermodynamics, and it holds true for economic systems. 

I often wonder if this is why many people find tort law to be so unpleasant; because it raises the curtains on moms very comforting notion that if you say sorry, and really mean it, all will be well. Rather a law suit puts things in black and white, it counts the beans, and discharges a bill. Then, in the very pragmatic manner of US law, the bill doesn’t necessarily go to person who deserves it, rather it goes to the entity that can pay it.


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## b1rdman (Jun 20, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Good question. Let’s look at the definition of responsibility;
> 
> Responsibility, n.;1. the condition, quality, fact, or instance of being responsible, answerable, accountable, or liable, as for a person, trust, office or debt.
> 
> ...



That sure is a long winded "NO"...

Is this the way you feel or are you just playin "Devil's Advocate?


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> That sure is a long winded "NO"...
> 
> Is this the way you feel or are you just playin "Devil's Advocate?



Isn’t that a bit like asking me if I’m bluffing before you call.:taped:


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## Ekka (Jun 20, 2006)

opcorn: 

Darn it, you guys haven't even put ya gloves on yet, come lets step it up some. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

Ekka said:


> opcorn:
> 
> Darn it, you guys haven't even put ya gloves on yet, come lets step it up some. :hmm3grin2orange:




Sorry Ekka, I'll edit the first post to say "Low entertainment value."

BTW I thought you were kind of a jerk before i got a highspeed connection. Now though, I have to say I'm pretty impressed. 

What do you do w/ all of the palm chunkies?


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## boo (Jun 20, 2006)

boo said:


> yep..... just another angle
> what if it was your daughter and her finger could'nt be re-attached because it wasn't there?
> trauma?
> should someone have been contacted that DID know what to do?
> ...



not to ruffle any feathers but, common sense is contradictive of absolute.
I think we should try to use common sense but, not to the point that it steps on absolute.
yep, I quoted myself >


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 20, 2006)

boo said:


> not to ruffle any feathers but, common sense is contradictive of absolute.
> I think we should try to use common sense but, not to the point that it steps on absolute.
> yep, I quoted myself >



Can you elaborate on that a little bit there Boo? What exactly do you mean by absolute?

PS did you ever find out anything about your truck?


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## boo (Jun 20, 2006)

absolute > facts.


no word on the truck


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## b1rdman (Jun 20, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> Isn’t that a bit like asking me if I’m bluffing before you call.:taped:



Yes it is isn't it...

Sorry after reading that nonesense I was considering "pulling a Sap on you" (unwarranted slander). 

I've calmed down so we're good. If that's the real you then I fold. If it's not then send me the source of that garbage so he/she can be added to "my list".


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 21, 2006)

b1rdman said:


> Yes it is isn't it...
> 
> Sorry after reading that nonesense I was considering "pulling a Sap on you" (unwarranted slander).
> 
> I've calmed down so we're good. If that's the real you then I fold. If it's not then send me the source of that garbage so he/she can be added to "my list".



Personal feeelings aside, what part of my position do you believe to be nonsensical garbage? 

-#56 “The definition of responsibility”

-Or perhaps you are onboard with Treeco; 


TreeCo said:


> CoreyTMorine said:
> 
> 
> > Conclusion) The student is morally obligated to sue the school, otherwise more students may be hurt.
> ...



My position is that the first person to become aware of an issue has an obligation to bring that issue before the people who are responsible or able to fix or evaluate the problem. 

The kid in my “student who cut his finger off” example discovered something, ‘improper tool use and improper first aid procedures’ that became a problem for him. I think that he is obligated to make others aware of these issues.

To give another example; If a company driver starts his truck and sees that the low oil light is on he should go and get the maintenance guy.

The difference between the two is that the driver has to find one guy for what is probably an easy fix. Whereas the student must bring together a whole bunch of people, and get them motivated to do some real work, I.E. evaluation and subsequent restructure of a complex, pre-existing system. 



As usual I have gotten more wordy than I wanted to, sorry about that. And thanks for not pulling a Sappy on me. Phrases like “Bite me you misanthropic eunuch.” While admittedly entertaining, don’t really matter much otherwise.

So, give me one specific example of what is garbage, and why it is nonsensical garbage. Else I fear that I will fall into the deep abyss of non-right thinking, and Boo might go with me. 

PS, sorry ‘bout the truck Boo. If I thought that all law suits were a type of thievery I would be livid with myself for starting this thread. Thieves are the some of the worst.


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## Husky372 (Jun 21, 2006)

I think that the problem is that some collage moron was more worried about checking out the coed hottie instead of paying attention to what he was doing. An exacto knife is just that a knife. If he is to stupid to pay attention and know proper handling he is an idiot. Maybe his finger should have been brought or maybe the teacher fainted. Is fainting at sight of blood punishable. Maybe was just more worried about hurrying up to hospital. Who knows. All I know is if the moron would have paid closer attention he wouldn't have *hurt himself ]* The only one to blame is this idiot. Maybe professor should sue him for making a mess in his class. And usually when someones the first to hurt themselves they aren't the first. We all do stupid ????. I guess by your reasoning the lady who burnt herself with *hot coffee* was right to sue because she was to stupid or in to much a hurry to sip not gulp. People need to relearn to take responsibility for there own actions.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 21, 2006)

http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm

POSTSCRIPT - Following the trial of Ms. Liebeck's case, the judge who presided over it reduced the punitive damages award to $480,000, even though the judge called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. This reduction is a corrective feature built into our legal system. Furthermore, after that, both parties agreed to a settlement of the claim for a sum reported to be much less than the judge's reduced award. Another corrective feature. 
ADDITIONAL NOTE - Prior to the Liebeck case, the prestigious Shriner's Burn Institute in Cincinnati had published warnings to the franchise food industry that its members were unnecessarily causing serious scald burns by serving beverages above 130 degrees Fahrenheit. 
OUR COMMENT - Any common consumer product which can cause third-degree burns (the worst kind) in two to seven seconds is seriously dangerous. Who could have imagined this risk from a cup of coffee? But, McDonald's had ample evidence of it. 
These hyper-heated beverages should be eliminated from the marketplace. The Liebeck jury can be commended for its courage in sending this message to the food service industry. Remember, these horrific burns could have happened to you or your family members and friends.


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## Husky372 (Jun 21, 2006)

CoreyTMorine said:


> http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm Remember, these horrific burns could have happened to you or your family members and friends.


No they couldn't and wouldn't have. Why you may ask. Becuase they have more sense than rock.

Sorry but if when you are holding something in your hand that is very warm but yet it is insulated. You know contents are hot.

Might also consider how is coffee made? *You boil the water* Knowing that the sensable know that coffee is *HOT*


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## spacemule (Jun 21, 2006)

Guys, I started using Xacto knifes when I was 7 years old building model rockets with no supervision or "training." I never cut myself worse than a paper cut. I would be greatly offended and inconvenienced if I had to be "trained" to use an Xacto knife at the college level. Such regulations, not to mention the inefficiency and pointlessness of, would hamper our educational systems that provide pertinent and necessary training. Not only is this thinking stupid, it is dangerous.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 21, 2006)

Husky372 said:


> No they couldn't and wouldn't have. Why you may ask. Becuase they have more sense than rock.
> 
> Sorry but if when you are holding something in your hand that is very warm but yet it is insulated. You know contents are hot.
> 
> Might also consider how is coffee made? *You boil the water* Knowing that the sensable know that coffee is *HOT*




Mickey Dee's has been sued many times over this. Their coffee temperature is well above industry standards. Shriner's and other burn hospitals have been begging them for YEARS to lower the temperature _to industry standard_, which will NOT cause 3rd degree burns.

Mickey tells them to shut up and mind their own business.

All she asked for in the first place was for them to pay her medical bills, which included skin grafts to repair the damage. No punitive damages, no "emotional distress". Just the actual medical bills. They told her to pound sand.

The jury, seeing and being outraged at the arrogance of Mickey's lawyers and corporate spokespeople during the trial, fined them ONE DAY'S WORTH OF COFFEE SALES.

This was NOT a case of an ambulance chasing lawyer and a greedy slip & fall shyster. I suspect she gladly settled for the original medical bills, plus legal fees.


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## CoreyTMorine (Jun 23, 2006)

spacemule said:


> Guys, I started using Xacto knifes when I was 7 years old building model rockets with no supervision or "training." I never cut myself worse than a paper cut. I would be greatly offended and inconvenienced if I had to be "trained" to use an Xacto knife at the college level. Such regulations, not to mention the inefficiency and pointlessness of, would hamper our educational systems that provide pertinent and necessary training. Not only is this thinking stupid, it is dangerous.





Thinking being a dangerous pastime? well, that may be true for some people, but I think that most of us here have a pretty good handle on it.

Remember; thoughts don't kill people, people kill people.

There are many occasions on which I have been greatly offended and inconvenienced by the idea that I should hang on to my chainsaw with both hands while cutting. 

“Convenience.” How has that become the war cry for californicated people everywhere? Do you always do what is easiest Spacemule? 

Working people get out and do the work that is in front of them, and hopefully by the time it is finished more work will have surfaced. The world wasn’t easy or convenient to build, and it wasn’t done by part timers. If you want to take a stance against my position you knuckle up and make an argument. Rules of engagement can be found on post #46.

Bar room ethics and sound-bites, while they sometimes ammusing really don’t do much as far as completing a line of thought.

Good luck, and thanks for taking the time to post.
*EDIT: I’ve just read through your post again mule, there is an argument there, a pretty good one i think, regarding cost of traning and enforcement vs. cost if injuries. I have to get to work, but I’ll come back to it this evening.*

I read somewhere that it is difficult to buy a hobby knife in the UK. Is there anyone from Great Britain out there who could shed some light on this situation?

Are hobby knives regulated there? Is it a post 9/11 security measure? Or has parliament decided that hobby knives are too dangerous for willie nillie over the counter sales?

Or did I read something and misinterpret it?


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## Ekka (Jun 23, 2006)

Why not sue the knife manufacturer instead of the school, perhaps like the coffee it should be a blunt knife!  

My goodness, what a pathetic world it's become.

MacDonalds didn't spill that coffee on her lap ... she did. 

And the jury got sucked in by horrific graphics.

But by that stage it was her coffee and what she did with it was her responsibility.

Think about it like this .... you are looking at saws on a rack. The rack collapses just while you are there and a saw with no bar cover gashes your leg bad .... yep, that's a case for sure.

But this isn't, wanker takes the bar cover off the saw in the carpark and gets excited, drops it and it gashes his leg, stiff cheddar mate ... you are an idiot regardless of how ugly those pictures are.

But oh no, poor guy, lets sympathise and blame some-one else.


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