# Survival or death?



## deeker (Jul 10, 2010)

Has anyone here had to survive in the wilderness/semi wilderness situation?

Has anyone here had survival training??? As for the military, the Air Force has some of the best survival training...probably an understatement.

Can you survive for three or four days in the wilds???

How about a month or longer???

How about a medical emergency while fighting to survive???

I would like to see a good discussion on it. 

Kevin


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## tree md (Jul 12, 2010)

I never had a survive or die situation Deek but I have gotten lost in the woods twice. Once when I was about 12 and again when I was around 16. I had taken Hunters Safety Training when I was like 9 or 10, It wasn't required back then but you had to take it to be eligible to go on the youth only hunts. Anyway, they went in pretty good depth about wilderness survival. We didn't have to eat any snakes or anything but we did have to put together a wilderness survival pack. It was more involved than I figured a hunter's safety course would be. 

When I got lost at 12 everything I learned in that class went right out the window. I was in a large tract of state land and I panicked which is the first thing they teach you not to do. I ran through the woods looking for anything familiar which disoriented me even more. Just before dark another hunter in the woods could hear my dad calling for me and relayed the yell. I couldn't hear my dad but I could hear the other guy and he could hear me. I was able to key on his yells and get back into ear shot with my dad and then key off of his yells and find my way back. I was sure glad I didn't have to spend the night in the woods that night. If we had been carrying whistles with us (as I had learned to do in hunter's safety training) the situation could have been avoided. I carry a whistle with me these days in case I get injured in the woods or have a tree stand accident and become incapacitated or can't get out on my cell phone. It's a good idea to carry one with you so you can guide help in to you if you are injured and incapacitated.

I got lost at 16 as well. That time I was a little older and level headed. I was able to not panic, walk towards an area where I had heard traffic, find a blacktop road and found a house where someone could help me out. I found a good natured old guy who just chuckled when I told him I got lost while hunting. He was able to listen to me describe where I was camped, figure out where it was located and drive me back. After that I started paying a lot better attention where I am at in the woods. 

It is easy to forget to remember to pay attention where you are when you are trailing game. Especially if your blood tracking a deer that goes very far. And especially if you are tracking at night. I carry flagging tape with me now so I can mark last blood when I track. Makes it easy to come back and try to pick up the blood trail should you loose blood and also makes it easy to find your way back.


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## WesternSaw (Jul 12, 2010)

*Deeker*

Kevin this is a very good topic you have started here!there are lots and lots of variables that can be put into play.I truly believe though that some people are very gifted when it comes to orientation.My father inlaw was very good at knowing where he was in the bush while hunting.I think the correct term is spacial orientation,but I'm not positive.Oh man I just had the worst case of deja vue just now,I thought you had put a thread up like this awhile back,I'm loosing it!.Anyway some of the survival shows are a joke,like Man Vs Wild,I know the guy has credentials in SAS or something but a lot of the show is staged.I have been lost a couple of times while hunting, it can be a very frightening experience.
Lawrence


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## tree md (Jul 12, 2010)

When I was like 16 we were camped out North of Jackman, Maine and deer hunting. We were 50 miles off of blacktop up off of "The Golden Road". We had like 3' of snow come in while we were there and temps were dropping to -30 at night. A 14 year old kid got lost hunting while we were there. We had a State Ranger come by our camp and ask if we had seen any sign of the kid. They finally found him after 3 days. He survived 2 night out there in -30 temps, How he did that I will never know. His desire to survive must have been phenomenal though.


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## luckycutter (Jul 12, 2010)

I learned a good portion of my wilderness skills while in College. The University of Oregon has one of the largest outdoor leadership programs in the country. After taking the "wilderness survival class" students are then able to take the rest of the outdoor classes. Different levels of backpacking to canyoneering, mountaineering, rock climbing, Canoeing, ski touring and snow camping are a few the classes available. Then, if the teacher thinks you have the skills you can be an assistant in the classes and earn a certificate in outdoor leadership. The certificate gives you a leg up if you want to work for Outward Bound, NOLS and such. Many of the students are also volunteers for Search and Rescue. 
I have been lucky. I spent a few unplanned nights in the woods but nothing life threatening. been on a few searches that were a bit hairy though.


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## WesternSaw (Jul 13, 2010)

*Deeker*

Have you ever seen the show "Alive",at least I think that was the name of it.It's about this soccer team in South America and their plane crashes in the mountains while en route to a game.Man, you want to talk about survival!I think it was quite well done,showing the emotions people were going through and the terrible misery of those who passed away and those who survived.
Lawrence


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## TimberMcPherson (Jul 13, 2010)

I have had a few cold and hungry times hunting, tramping, mountaineering and with the army but nothing serious, providing you have survivable weather your good for a long time before you need fuel although I get cold fast when Im hungry. I liked travelling light, fast and far, pushed my luck to much but learned from it. Did a few survival exercises which were mainly set up to be mind screwers which taught me little in "survival" skills but really built up my coping skills. 
I shared a hut in the mountains with a dead guy when I was 19 who had died from hypothermia before I had got there, he was naked and all his wet cotton gear was on the ground beside him. Wearing cotton in the cold outdoors will kill you if you get wet, its a bit of a sore point for me, if I see people in jeans in the hills it drives me nuts. once they are wet your warmer naked.


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## DANOAM (Jul 13, 2010)

I really got into survival when I was in Boy Scouts and as an adult leader, I taught the survival related classes to the boys. I did a better job teaching than I received as a boy. I haven't practiced much of it lately though and have lost some of the knowledge. I guess it's time for a refresher, you never know.


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## luckycutter (Jul 13, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> I have had a few cold and hungry times hunting, tramping, mountaineering and with the army but nothing serious, providing you have survivable weather your good for a long time before you need fuel although I get cold fast when Im hungry. I liked travelling light, fast and far, pushed my luck to much but learned from it. Did a few survival exercises which were mainly set up to be mind screwers which taught me little in "survival" skills but really built up my coping skills.
> I shared a hut in the mountains with a dead guy when I was 19 who had died from hypothermia before I had got there, he was naked and all his wet cotton gear was on the ground beside him. Wearing cotton in the cold outdoors will kill you if you get wet, its a bit of a sore point for me, if I see people in jeans in the hills it drives me nuts. once they are wet your warmer naked.



We call blue jeans, "suicide pants". 
Surviving is as much mental as having all the needed items. That was always the most difficult concept for students to learn. They always figured that if they had everything they were good to go. If you want to survive you must have some skills and the will to survive or all the fancy things in your pack is useless.
In the late 1970's, the Federal bean counters decided that wool uniforms were too expensive and converted the Forest Rangers to cotton uniforms. Then they could not understand why the best and brightest rangers quit. Go figure.


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## WesternSaw (Jul 13, 2010)

*luckycutter*



luckycutter said:


> We call blue jeans, "suicide pants".
> Surviving is as much mental as having all the needed items. That was always the most difficult concept for students to learn. They always figured that if they had everything they were good to go. If you want to survive you must have some skills and the will to survive or all the fancy things in your pack is useless.
> In the late 1970's, the Federal bean counters decided that wool uniforms were too expensive and converted the Forest Rangers to cotton uniforms. Then they could not understand why the best and brightest rangers quit. Go figure.



Your bang on there regarding the blue jeans luckycutter!Although I have hunted in them with soft woolen long underwear underneath.For the upper torso I like to wear something that wicks moisture away as an undershirt,with a one of the gray woolen Stanfield's sweaters on top of that.
Lawrence


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## deeker (Jul 16, 2010)

One situation that happend to a friend Walter W. and I, in 2006.

Riding double on the grizzly 660, Walter leaned back as I was climbing a fairly steep hill to grab his loosened back pack.

I turned a bit to the left to dodge a snow covered rock...and hit a snow covered maple stump. ( learned this the next spring )

The wheeler flipped over, sideways....cracked Walter's skull just above the left eye and behind his left ear. Later the neurosurgeon said he would have been dead/decapitated had he been wearing a helmet.

I broke my left hind leg. And even though I had been told/trained/taught that one cannot walk on a broken leg....I know you can in an ugly situation.
I am and have been an Intermedite EMT for several years, with lots of wilderness survival training.

*When you are out in the sticks on a four wheeler or bike...take a cell phone and charger with you*.....

I could have had Walter out almost two hours earlier. Cell kept dying, dispatch said I could not call for the Life Flight helicopter.

A five plus mile trip on a broken leg...on top of a four wheeler in bitter cold...fearing the worst for Walter...I got to my truck...

Got the bird on its way..and the local Search and Resuce men on their way.

When I left Walter....he was dazed and confused, bleeding and I could see obvious skull fractures. I yelled at him several times to stay awake and I would be back asap.

The other thing that made it interesting was there was a large black bear in the local area. It was late october, utah's rifle deer hunt.

Had to drive the truck down the canyon to snag the county mounty to the right area....and the local volenteer amblance from Santaquin Ut showed up.

Back at the parking area....the EMT that chose to ride with me...grabbed her jump kit...and I grabbed mine...and we cut a private land owners gate, and later another gate...it cut about four and a half miles off.

SAR boys showed up with weapons....snowmobiles....and four wheelers..

Life Flight landed...and we loaded Walter up.

The worst phone call I have ever made..was to his wife Pam. 

I drove over to Utah Valley Regional and saw Walter....then to Xray for the leg.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 16, 2010)

deeker said:


> One situation that happend to a friend Walter W. and I, in 2006.
> 
> Riding double on the grizzly 660, Walter leaned back as I was climbing a fairly steep hill to grab his loosened back pack.
> 
> ...



Sounds pretty frightening It is sometimes easier to be the victim , than the survivor desperate to save the victim. It sounds as if you expended all your energy to save your friend. I have had to spend the night with bears with minimal provision but never a real life and death situation. I do go far off the beaten path in turkey and deer season and sometimes worry about injury not being able to walk out and stuck with the bears and lions until someone finds me. I do feel I can survive as long as injury is not completely debilitating for a good spell if ever necessary IE red dawn. I know areas fortified and very secluded and would get there with my family if ever need be. I can get clean water there and there is plenty to sustain if you know where to look. Berries, nuts , fish, roots will keep you from starvation but deer will soon perish if we are all in the same boat so alturnatives will become necessary. I have aa native American hand guide to wild plants and there medicinal purposes and edible roots flower and fruit. I many times in hunting season eat these plants and drink from upland streams and springs. I hope to not have to survive but think I could but it would not be enjoyable.


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## scattergun13 (Jul 16, 2010)

Marine Corps wilderness survival/mountain warfare school 1987. Yes we ate worms...


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## dingeryote (Jul 16, 2010)

scattergun13 said:


> Marine Corps wilderness survival/mountain warfare school 1987. Yes we ate worms...



:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Chuckawallas too quick for ya eh? 

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## scattergun13 (Jul 16, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Chuckawallas too quick for ya eh?
> 
> ...



Much too quick!
Food deprivation made our metabolism grind to a near complete halt, at that point even the worms can be too fast. However, if you've ever seen someone use sticks to "fiddle up" worms out of the ground it is pretty interesting. Setting snares is a laborious hit and miss proposition and you cant always count on vegetation. It pays to know as much about the area you're going to be in as possible and let that knowlege determine what gear you take in.
Stew and Ajo...


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## ropensaddle (Jul 16, 2010)

scattergun13 said:


> Much too quick!
> Food deprivation made our metabolism grind to a near complete halt, at that point even the worms can be too fast. However, if you've ever seen someone use sticks to "fiddle up" worms out of the ground it is pretty interesting. Setting snares is a laborious hit and miss proposition and you cant always count on vegetation. It pays to know as much about the area you're going to be in as possible and let that knowlege determine what gear you take in.
> Stew and Ajo...



Scattergun if it gets so bad as vegetation being absent I would prolly just rather die. IE nuclear holocaust survival only to die of nuclear poisoning what is the point. roots are there winter and summer as long as nuclear weapons have not been released if that has happened getting out of the fallout zone would be the only option worthy of my effort.


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## dingeryote (Jul 16, 2010)

scattergun13 said:


> Much too quick!
> Food deprivation made our metabolism grind to a near complete halt, at that point even the worms can be too fast. However, if you've ever seen someone use sticks to "fiddle up" worms out of the ground it is pretty interesting. Setting snares is a laborious hit and miss proposition and you cant always count on vegetation. It pays to know as much about the area you're going to be in as possible and let that knowlege determine what gear you take in.
> Stew and Ajo...



Yep. Same here. JEST was the worst though, all those frogs and they were off the menu. LOL!!!

I kept a Grenade ring and cable snare in my wallet right up to 2004 when I realized the airport screeners might not like it much.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## deeker (Jul 16, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Yep. Same here. JEST was the worst though, all those frogs and they were off the menu. LOL!!!
> 
> *I kept a Grenade ring and cable snare* in my wallet right up to 2004 when I realized the airport screeners might not like it much.
> 
> ...



I have those, in all survival related gear...jump kit ( emergency medical kit ) and all of my hunting, fishing gear as well as all of my back packs.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Aug 10, 2010)

I always get crap from my buddies about all the stuff in my truck. I hunt all the time, and we get in pretty deep country for pigs. I have one backpack that goes in the field, and stays on the 4wheeler, but is always close. Got everything for first aid that you could imagine. Also matches mreS for food. Extra coat water, tape,extra bullets everythig! I also have that stuff, and more in m y truck that is in the field, and can be reached by 4whheler. We got two way radios, cb radio, and I have verizon cell phone, and my phone is the only one in the group that works at all! of our hunt spots. It is always on my side in the field! I was commended for what I carry by one guy I met. He is a close friend of my friend, he was a point man, and did more than one tour in vietnam, and saw some bad stuff. He told me he was impressed, and forget what people say because you can never carry to much survival gear.


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 18, 2010)

Always had parts of rat packs (mre type packs) in my vehicle, when the other guys were ditching whatever was left after exercises I would be gathering them up, never came across anything I didnt like when I was hungry. Came in handy many times, from partys that went on to long to being stuck on a worksite. But its greatest contribution was to be able to impress women at the time, instant romantic picnic was available day or night.

I have done a few survival courses and exercises, a few were set up just to be head benders. I was always very sceptacle so expected them to do there worst. They would give you stuff that looked like it was going to be helpful but would often be damaging. Special matches that were NEVER going to work were my favourite. Impressively depressing.

Had some pretty long and uncomfortable times outdoors, nothing serious although at the time a few had me concerned, I ruined more than one pair of boots carving bits of rubber off the soles to get a wet fire going. I used to do a bit of moutaineering and being stuck in a snow cave for a few nights longer than you have food and fuel for gets old quick. You go a little mad. Never travelled without a book after that. Shared a hut with a dead naked guy which was a great reminder how important prep is. (hypothermia got him)

As for medical stuff Im no medic but I know the basics and have a couple of quals, and have applied them a little, mostly car wrecks as we lived on a bad stretch of the main highway for accidents. Have stitched up a few wounds and used to have to "help" as a med care person for events such as races when the medics didnt show. My grandfather was an undertaker and my dad a farmer, bodies and blood dont bother me much if its other peoples!


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## jjett84724 (Aug 19, 2010)

This is a great thread Deek. 

My only survival experience was elk hunting with my cousin on the Manti. We were two weeks into the hunt and only two days left until the hunt was over. The night before our fun was unusually warm, but for some reason it didn't cross my mind that a storm was coming. 

We got into the elk that morning. 150 head or so came across the slide (Deek probably knows where this is) and we were waiting for them on the other side. I noticed an elk that was a spike on one side and a 3 point on the other. That's a legal spike elk in Utah and I told myself that he was the one for me. My cousin and I chased those elk around the slide for hours. It was so fun. 

We were taking a break under a pine tree when we felt the temperature plummet. I mean, wow, it got cold all of a sudden. We looked up and saw the clouds come over the top of the canyon and the rain, snow and cold dropped on us. We figured we would wait it out and crawled up under a pine tree. We tried to start a fire, but everything was too wet. Two hours later we decided it probably wasn't going to stop before dark and started hiking out to the wheelers. It took us a couple hours to get to the wheelers, and then it was a 2 hour ride back to camp. Holy crap, that was a cold ride. We had our coats, but no gloves, or beanie hats. While we were never in any mortal danger, we could have been better prepared. 

I had a lighter and matches. I should have had some magnesium to start the fire with. I had a big bag on the back of my ATV. No excuses why I didn't have an extra pair of gloves and a couple knit hats. It wouldn't have taken up much room at all.


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## deeker (Aug 20, 2010)

jjett84724 said:


> This is a great thread Deek.
> 
> My only survival experience was elk hunting with my cousin on the Manti. We were two weeks into the hunt and only two days left until the hunt was over. The night before our fun was unusually warm, but for some reason it didn't cross my mind that a storm was coming.
> 
> ...



Sounds like the nine mile area. A friend and I slid his truck off of one side of that lovely little clay covered hell. A month before we could get it back onto the road.


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## deeker (Aug 22, 2010)

Another thing we do, is fill 2 liter bottles half to 3/4 full of saw dust then water....put them in the freezer. Use these to keep our coolers cold in the summer...and now it is hunting season....use these ice bottles to cool down deer/elk/pronghorn and small game.

The saw dust filled ones stay frozen almost twice as long as those filled with just water.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Aug 22, 2010)

I graduated from the Explorer Emergency Service course co-sponsored by the Boy Scouts of America and the U.S. Air force. This multi-weekend course in survival skills was taught by USAF personnel at Parks Air Force Base near Pleasanton, CA.

A few Explorers in my Explorer Post graduated from the wilderness/desert Survival School at Stead AFB, Nevada.

One can never be too prepared.


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## jjett84724 (Aug 23, 2010)

deeker said:


> Sounds like the nine mile area. A friend and I slid his truck off of one side of that lovely little clay covered hell. A month before we could get it back onto the road.



Pretty dang close. We were up on 12 mile, just South of Deep Lake.


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