# DDRT without footlocking?



## ForTheArborist (Nov 21, 2011)

I've been using the SRT up until now. I'm interested in the DDRT, and after a bunch of looking over the system variations on this site and elsewhere online, I have a question.

Do you DRT climbers always have to foot lock some how? I like the idea of just pulling down the rope nonstop until I'm there without bothering with my feet.


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## epicklein22 (Nov 21, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> I've been using the SRT up until now. I'm interested in the DDRT, and after a bunch of looking over the system variations on this site and elsewhere online, I have a question.
> 
> Do you DRT climbers always have to foot lock some how? I like the idea of just pulling down the rope nonstop until I'm there without bothering with my feet.



Aww, the old school way. There is no need to footlock and if you are feeling spunky, no need for a knot. 

Just tie a blake's hitch or tautline and hump your way up. That is how I do it. Might be "slow" and "caveman", but simple and efficient if you have the strength and good form.

The guys I work with call climbing without a knot "free pulling". Just tie yourself to your saddle and start pulling, you just can't let go!


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 21, 2011)

epicklein22 said:


> The guys I work with call climbing without a knot "free pulling". Just tie yourself to your saddle and start pulling, you just can't let go!



That's about the fastest way there is if the height is maybe 30 feet or less. Truthfully I shouldn't agree with this technique, but I'll just say my disclaimer now and I will not teach anyone this technique. Also if my assistants see me using this, then I'll give them a big warning about it before I rocket up.


I was also thinking this to. Instead of using a prussic in the DRT, use an simple ascender. I doubt there's a whole lot of humping then. It would basically be free pulling since the rope may pass through the mechanical device without resistance unlike the prussic knot.

I'd go try these all out right now, but I'm stuck behind the desk all day today.


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## Tree Pig (Nov 21, 2011)

I seldom footlock or even bodythrust, most of the time I just hand over hand for 5 or 6 pulls tend some slack and repeat until desired height is reached. Not the most energy efficient method but it will get you there. Just dont plan on using it for real long climbs unless your a monkey. and of course your limited to climbing right next to the trunk for the most part.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 21, 2011)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I seldom footlock or even bodythrust, most of the time I just hand over hand for 5 or 6 pulls tend some slack and repeat until desired height is reached. Not the most energy efficient method but it will get you there. Just dont plan on using it for real long climbs unless your a monkey. and of course your limited to climbing right next to the trunk for the most part.



What's holding you while you tend the slack?


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## thepheniox (Nov 21, 2011)

His other hand is holding the rope. I just have someone else tend my slack if I'm humping up the tree. Really you have to tie a knot at some point. I just don't get why anyone would free climb. It's so simple to do it safely.


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## Tree Pig (Nov 21, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> What's holding you while you tend the slack?





thepheniox said:


> His other hand is holding the rope. I just have someone else tend my slack if I'm humping up the tree. Really you have to tie a knot at some point. I just don't get why anyone would free climb. It's so simple to do it safely.



Yeah man hold position with one hand tend with other... or as he stated have someone tend slack from the ground, just make sure you tell them to pull down. If they pull sideways they can pull you away from the tree which can be a pain in the arse.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 21, 2011)

Well, I'd be glad to put all of this to use on the ropes right this minute, but I have to settle for a flat arse for right now. No way to get out of this desk, and it's a nice day. It's 62 degrees right now. Perfect tree working weather. I'll be at this desk until 11 tonight.


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## 802climber (Nov 21, 2011)

solo foot ascender..

btw the CMI cam is easier on tree ropes


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## the Aerialist (Nov 21, 2011)

*A.R.T. makes "free pulling" a science, not an art ...*



epicklein22 said:


> Aww, the old school way. There is no need to footlock and if you are feeling spunky, no need for a knot.
> 
> Just tie a blake's hitch or tautline and hump your way up. That is how I do it. Might be "slow" and "caveman", but simple and efficient if you have the strength and good form.
> 
> The guys I work with call climbing without a knot "free pulling". Just tie yourself to your saddle and start pulling, you just can't let go!




"Free Pulling" sounds dangerous to me without some sort of backup.

Essentially what the ascender/decenders from ART (LockJack & SpiderJack) and some other mechanical devices like the Yates or Ushiba rope grabs, allow you to do ~ "free pull" your way up the tree, but with a mechanical backup in case you "let go". 

The rope "flows" through the device as you ascend. No tending of the tail needed, at least after the first 10 feet or so. Once you are up that high the weight of the rope itself is enough to allow the device to just follow you up. Compared to tending a knot even with a micro pulley to advance it, these devices are far more efficient and natural. I also have a Unicender but find it takes some tending, at least with 13mm rope, with 11 or 12mm it would probably "flow" the rope better.

Once you have some branches to help you climb the devices stay with you without tending. If I need to go up a rope without help from the tree (i.e. straight up) I'll use my Kong double handled ascender w/ CMI Pantin for footlocking. Not a Wraptor for completely effortless ascents, but easy enough for an old man like me.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 21, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> "Free Pulling" sounds dangerous to me without some sort of backup.
> 
> Essentially what the ascender/decenders from ART (LockJack & SpiderJack) and some other mechanical devices like the Yates or Ushiba rope grabs, allow you to do ~ "free pull" your way up the tree, but with a mechanical backup in case you "let go".
> 
> ...



For you .......anything in a tree could turn dangerous ... You could be climbing a viburnum and possibly cut your hand off ...


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## TreeAce (Nov 21, 2011)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I seldom footlock or even bodythrust, most of the time I just hand over hand for 5 or 6 pulls tend some slack and repeat until desired height is reached. Not the most energy efficient method but it will get you there. Just dont plan on using it for real long climbs unless your a monkey. and of course your limited to climbing right next to the trunk for the most part.



Thats basically how I do it myself. I like to get a pantin involved for any climbs that are long enough. Back in the day I never tied off until I was well under way. This was largely due to the fact that what climbed on back then was a taughtline. That knot was more work to tend than it was worth. Climbing was more than twice as easy if you didnt have to fight your slack through a taughtline. Now a days its a different ball game. With slack tender pulleys and the VT or a distel or even the blakes its just SSOOOO much better. I no longer move in a tree without being tied off with a proper hitch, but I used to. Just like someone else said...'ya just cant let go" LOL..so true. Just not an option. Reminds me a time , musta been back in '82 ( LOL ,kidding) but anyway I was climbing cowboy style and had about 5or 6 more feet to go before I could toss my safety around branch and suddenly notice a big a.ss spider sitting on my left forearm. I mean this sucker was big, WAY to big to be on me. I hate spiders. But there was NOTHING I could do but keep pulling, saftey off, and then brush ole spider off my arm. He never bite me or nothin but it was VERY uncool. But letting go was NOT an option.


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## the Aerialist (Nov 21, 2011)

*That's true for all of us ...*



treeclimber101 said:


> For you .......anything in a tree could turn dangerous ... You could be climbing a viburnum and possibly cut your hand off ...



Well, as I often say: "_Anytime both feet are off the ground at the same time there is an element of danger_" which would apply in a tree as well. The fact that I have climbed trees for over fifty years and not been hurt is a pretty good track record though.

Life is full of danger to the unwary. You could be using your vibrator and give yourself or your "partner" hemorrhoids ~ just saying' ...


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## Zale (Nov 21, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> Well, as I often say: "_Anytime both feet are off the ground at the same time there is an element of danger_" which would apply in a tree as well. The fact that I have climbed trees for over fifty years and not been hurt is a pretty good track record though.
> 
> Life is full of danger to the unwary. You could be using your vibrator and give yourself or your "partner" hemorrhoids ~ just saying' ...



Fifty years? Really? Show me the black and white photos!


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## Slvrmple72 (Nov 21, 2011)

Insert disturbing mental picture here


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## the Aerialist (Nov 21, 2011)

TreeAce said:


> ... Now a days its a different ball game. With slack tender pulleys and the VT or a distel or even the blakes its just SSOOOO much better...



From a safety standpoint any type of fall protection is better than "free pulling", but with knots you still must tend the tail of the rope to advance the knot. Today's best mechanical devices eliminate that, no footlocking or two handed operation is needed. You can just climb.


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## the Aerialist (Nov 21, 2011)

*What kid doesn't love to climb trees?*



Zale said:


> Fifty years? Really? Show me the black and white photos!



I guess I've always loved climbing trees. I can remember a Maple that I would climb to the very top of when I was probably 10 years old or so. No photos of me in a tree that I know of from that era though.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> I guess I've always loved climbing trees. I can remember a Maple that I would climb to the very top of when I was probably 10 years old or so. No photos of me in a tree that I know of from that era though.



Listen we all climbed trees momo , it part of being a child , but I don't go and say I have been climbing trees for 30 years jeeeeeeezzzzuuuussssssss........ I think your were dropped down a flight of stairs as a baby , or maybe under water for a minute or two because theres def. some damage there ....Partner


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## TreeAce (Nov 22, 2011)

Lol. Ya dude, climbing trees as a child doesn't count. What are you thinking?!?! Are you really trying to be serious? 
Lmao....wait until my 10 year old finds out she had 3 years experience as a climber! I better keep it on the down low cuz she may want more allowance.


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## NCTREE (Nov 22, 2011)

i guess all those years as a kid climbing the pine tree in the back yard to hide my weed payed off.


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## Grace Tree (Nov 22, 2011)

59 Years of experience is going on my website. I didn't climb until I was 5.
Phil


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## Mike Cantolina (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> I guess I've always loved climbing trees. I can remember a Maple that I would climb to the very top of when I was probably 10 years old or so. No photos of me in a tree that I know of from that era though.



And the negative rep campaign continues.


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

Seems that the usual suspects don't want to post anything of value to advance the topic. Today's best mechanical devices makes footlocking unneeded and time wasting. Spend the money to eliminate hours of rope tending over the course of a day, the payoff is more productivity and getting more work done for every hour you spend on rope.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> Seems that the usual suspects don't want to post anything of value to advance the topic. Today's best mechanical devices makes footlocking unneeded and time wasting. Spend the money to eliminate hours of rope tending over the course of a day, the payoff is more productivity and getting more work done for every hour you spend on rope.



Even in a time elapsed video your slow in a tee so maybe your right ........ I saw you literally hump a tree while the sun moved over in the sky and john boy bombed pieces down on your head


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

*Small Minds talk about people, Large Minds talk about ideas ...*



treeclimber101 said:


> Even in a time elapsed video your slow in a tee so maybe your right ........ I saw you literally hump a tree while the sun moved over in the sky and john boy bombed pieces down on your head



Tiny little minds like yours see what they want to see and them make up something to criticize from their limited ability to perceive what's going on. I admit to being old and slow in a tree compared to a 20 something climber, but that doesn't change the fact that advanced gear can make anyone faster than sticking with century old techniques.

Why not address the topic and not attack the poster? That's a rhetorical question so I'll answer it for you: You're just a lamer who has nothing of value to add to the discussion.


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## Tree Pig (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> Today's best mechanical devices makes footlocking unneeded and time wasting..



Please explain to me how your attachment device can change the efficiency of a method of climbing. Is the ART also the reason you gave up on climbing with the ice axe?


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

*I thought I explained that already ...*



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Please explain to me how your attachment device can change the efficiency of a method of climbing. Is the ART also the reason you gave up on climbing with the ice axe?



Both my LockJack and SpiderJack allow the rope to be completely self tending. The rope just flows through them as you ascend without any tending on your part. With a knot, even with a pulley to slide it up, you must handle the tail of the rope to advance up the tree. Pretty simple concept really.

The ice axes worked well when set into the tree, it was pulling them out that was a headache. Maybe if I ground off the serrated edge or waxed then (thanks rope!) they would be easier to retrieve. They were a failed experiment, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'm an old dog but I like trying new tricks Getting the ART gear was very successful for me to make my climbing easier.


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## HeRoze (Nov 22, 2011)

I thought this would be interesting.

anyone care to continue enlightening the ignorant (like me) or have we spiraled into pre-pubescent banter to the point that folks who would have shared with the OP won't anymore.

opcorn:
:bang:
:chatter:


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## Tree Pig (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> Both my LockJack and SpiderJack allow the rope to be completely self tending. The rope just flows through them as you ascend without any tending on your part. With a knot even with a pulley to slide it up you must handle the tail of the rope to advance up the tree. Pretty simple concept really.



That really shows how much you dont use them for rope climbing or dont rope climb since we all know you spike trims anyways. The amount of effort it takes to tend slack when rope climbing is minute and to me not worth the money you spent of them. Now for limb walking they may be an advantage but for climbing it really wouldnt matter. But then again at 87 no one really expects you to be rope climbing. Ill be glad to get out of bed at your age.

I have to tell you the truth you complain about people hijacking threads and not contributing but you are the catalyst for a large amount of it. When you go in a thread and talk nonsense people are going to react.


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## treeclimber101 (Nov 22, 2011)

HeRoze said:


> I thought this would be interesting.
> 
> anyone care to continue enlightening the ignorant (like me) or have we spiraled into pre-pubescent banter to the point that folks who would have shared with the OP won't anymore.
> 
> ...



Sorry birdman your right ..... Proceed with the topic LOL


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

*Kindergarden Cop ~ the Aerialist for moderator ...*



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> That really shows how much you dont use them for rope climbing or dont rope climb since we all know you spike trims anyways. The amount of effort it takes to tend slack when rope climbing is minute and to me not worth the money you spent of them. Now for limb walking they may be an advantage but for climbing it really wouldnt matter. But then again at 87 no one really expects you to be rope climbing. Ill be glad to get out of bed at your age.
> 
> I have to tell you the truth you complain about people hijacking threads and not contributing but you are the catalyst for a large amount of it. When you go in a thread and talk nonsense people are going to react.



Your response is typical juvenile baiting and it's _your_ type of nonsense that pollutes these threads. Grow up or get smart, although I doubt if you are able to do either.

It's not that it's _hard_ to tend your rope after every move; up, down, or sideways. It's that you have to do it after every move and that takes time and attention. Using advanced gear gives you back that time and just does it's job without distracting you with repetitive (even if minimal) effort.

I wouldn't knock it until you've tried it for a day.


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## Tree Pig (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> Your response is typical juvenile baiting and it's _your_ type of nonsense that pollutes these threads. Grow up or get smart, although I doubt if you are able to do either.
> 
> It's not that it's _hard_ to tend your rope after every move; up, down, or sideways. It's that you have to do it after every move and that takes time and attention. Using advanced gear gives you back that time and just does it's job without distracting you with repetitive (even if minimal) effort.
> 
> I wouldn't knock it until you've tried it for a day.



again this just proves you have not done it... it is not every every move, only a few times in every climb that you have to tend. It is not all that distracting only takes a second to do. 

Your claim was that your ART set up takes away the need to footlock. Back this up with some reasoning and theory. You dont even have a clue when and were footlocking is used and why.


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## ssurveyor (Nov 22, 2011)

You could use my Bulldog OAR, just clip in at the top, and pull down on the down line. It self advances, and when you want to go down pull down on the bottom arms.


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## treemandan (Nov 22, 2011)

If yer not using yer legs yer losing money.


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## beastmaster (Nov 22, 2011)

Long time ago when I first started climbing I pulled my self up the rope with my arms. It didn't take long I learned how to footlock. I was now faster and less tired on rope climbs of any ht. Then buy some fluke I learned to ddrt. It was faster yet on long climbs and easier to footlock then a single rope. Then there are other little advancments, blake,s , split tail, micro pulleys etc. 
I researched Spider jack and it seemed like it would be a big improvement.(but you can't footlock) But then I discovered SRT.
I use two Technic's, but the one I use everyday is the yo yo or rads. If you really feel the need to pull your self up with your arms it beats doing just a rope pull over the branch. The gri gri protects you from falling should a pine cone or widow maker knock you out on the ascend, and you have a pulley and hand ascender to help you pull your self up. I do footlock and on a rads system its almost effortless. I won't even go on about how much easier it is to set your rope. Each advance has made getting up a tree a little easier and safer.
Each new thing has a learning curve so it seems foreign at first. You wouldn't buy a fred flintstone car over one with a engine would you? So why not learn and master a Technic that is safer and faster and easier, then going back to one that is harder, dangerous, and unsafe? 
I am not as young as I use to be, just the easier part appeals to me. Beastmaster


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## HeRoze (Nov 22, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> Long time ago ====part appeals to me. Beastmaster


+1




treeclimber101 said:


> Sorry birdman your right ..... Proceed with the topic LOL



Yea, it's a tufted titmouse. I'm beating a dead horse in WTF. I guess you had to be there to get it.




ssurveyor said:


> You could use my Bulldog OAR, just clip in at the top, and pull down on the down line. It self advances, and when you want to go down pull down on the bottom arms.



looks interesting. gotta video by chance?


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Nov 22, 2011)

*ft lock*

Beastmaster, your reply makes more sense than most post on this thread. Use the tools available to work more effeicient. Saves the body and time!!


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

ssurveyor said:


> You could use my Bulldog OAR, just clip in at the top, and pull down on the down line. It self advances, and when you want to go down pull down on the bottom arms...



That thing looks a lot like my Unicender:






While true that it self advances if you haul on the line below it, (which is why I have it rigged on a tether, to put it above me) I find that it doesn't pass the rope through it as smoothly as the ART products do.


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## the Aerialist (Nov 22, 2011)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> ... Your claim was that your ART set up takes away the need to footlock. Back this up with some reasoning and theory. You dont even have a clue when and were footlocking is used and why.



You don't _need_ to footlock, you can if you want to. If I feel that need I just put on the Pantin. The point being that with the LJ & SJ if you pull yourself up, say using a double handled ascender, the tail of the rope just glides through the device until you load it by putting your weight on it.

Footlocking gives you enough purchase on the rope to advance the knot up the rope, beyond that, I don't think it adds much to actually get you up the rope. Try foot locking and letting go with your hands and see how long you can stay there without sliding down.


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## ssurveyor (Nov 22, 2011)

No video. Yet. 

I have not used the spiderjack, but having had a chance to use the unicender for a short while, I know that it is spring loaded to reliably grip when un-weighted, and it releases differently. The Bulldog OAR uses rollers and pins and loads midline from the front between the side arms and then around the pins. It captures the line very effectively and releases very smoothly by fully pulling down on the bottom arm and then pulling gently on the middle arm to get it to start releasing (on a doubled rope). The top arm functions just like a built in rope wrench. It uses a set pin screw to adjust the tension on the rope as needed or desired. It also has all steel friction points. My intent was to make something that would last for crane work on a doubled rope.


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## beastmaster (Nov 22, 2011)

Your legs are the strongest muscles on your body, and by what they do built for endurance. Learn to use your legs and you'll eliminate tiring out the arms, that your going to need once up in the tree to work. Footlock or foot device both are going to free up energy your going to need in your arms to do work. If your just doing one small tree, maybe it doesn't matter. But if its a really long ascend or a whole bunch of small ones then its all about not tiring your arms out.
Many times Iv'e seen several climbers not come down for lunch, because they couldn't do the ascend again. I would repel down and footlock back up after lunch 
Now I SRT and some climbers are always racing me up the tree pulling them selfs up. Sometimes they beat me, but I'm not even hurrying, and I don't even brake a sweat SRTing up. They'll learn, just some people are really stubborn.
If your not using your legs or a wraptor, your cheating your self.
PS I can footlock and not use my arms to hold me up. Ive worked off of a footlock many times.


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## Tree Pig (Nov 22, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> You don't _need_ to footlock, you can if you want to. If I feel that need I just put on the Pantin. The point being that with the LJ & SJ if you pull yourself up, say using a double handled ascender, the tail of the rope just glides through the device until you load it by putting your weight on it.
> 
> Footlocking gives you enough purchase on the rope to advance the knot up the rope, beyond that, I don't think it adds much to actually get you up the rope. Try foot locking and letting go with your hands and see how long you can stay there without sliding down.




Beastmaster is explaining exactly what I am talking about. Rope climbing for a trim (without spikes) footlocking is fast an efficient, you cant comprehend the concept because you dont do it. Other then mentioned a full tree frog or rads system footlocking is prolly the fastest most efficient system. A single pantin is not nearly as good for long climbs. You must be basing your theory on some of them short 5 - 10 foot climbs you do off your ladder. Make a fifty foot climb on a pantin after take a few weeks to learn to footlock and then you tell me pantin is faster or easier.


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

here is a pic of an adjustable system, which would work well for body-thrusting. You can set the distel (or w/e knot you like) up higher at first so you can get the most out of each thrust; when you get to a standing point, slide your knot, and the prussic cord (which keeps the whole system at the length you set it) down close to your saddle and you can limb-walk and work the tree like you normally would. This system is convenient for guys who are used to old school, but recently switched to closed system, who are now reefing their line hand over hand and then tending slack every couple of pulls -- it will feel quite a bit more natural if you're used to Blakes or tautline. And you wont have to re-tie once you get up there, just slide it all down close, and you're ready to go.


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## Scrat (Nov 22, 2011)

Aerialist,
I agree with Beastmaster and Stihl-o-matic
It is absolutely about efficiency and energy conservation. It sounds like your foot locking method may need improvement if you feel that using your legs aren't helping you. I find when SRTing my arms primarily aid in balancing and progressing my foot loop and hitch, my legs are what really propel you up. I believe a fair comparison in effort used and by what muscle groups would be like going up a ladder. Please don't tell me you pull yourself up with your arms and drag your legs behind. And if you do (I mean the arm to leg effort ratio) than you need help with your ascending skills-once you get it down pat then you will most likely not go back to arm hauling. 

Sorry you are getting a bit bashed but I saw a video that a guy (no name....) went up a ladder while on DRT to Ascend, which could be seen as lazy or energy efficient, then limb crawl...ok everyone has their skill/comfort level but then they did not tie in their lanyard and proceeded to one hand a chainsaw repeatedly while in poor work position and maximum arm extension. Personally if this has been this individuals mode of operation for 30 years than he is real lucky and should stop at EVERY church he drives by and put a sizable donation in the basket.

Just being objective and observant -no ill intended


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## Zale (Nov 22, 2011)

I had to go back and read the OP question. Like others have said, your leg muscles are the strongest muscles in your body. Footlocking is a skill that takes time to develop. I prefer footlocking on ascenders. Its up to you which method you like. There is no one right way. If I had footlocked earlier in my career, my shoulders and elbows might not hurt like they do. Economy of motion and energy will extend your climbing career.


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## husabud (Nov 22, 2011)

Buy a Wraptor and leave your damn spikes at home. no foot locking and no holding on. Better yet no Bull sheet in the thread.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 22, 2011)

The DRT was OK today :msp_thumbup:, and just for sport I taught my "roady" everything I know about it as I set up. Teaching always helps the full understanding of subjects, and it's a good investment to keep teach somebody your craft. 

I only put on the prussic tender and put on a medium petzl rope grabber from my old flipline. That was it. No foot locking, but these were all only about 15'+ climbs today. 


Beast is def right about foot locking the long climbs, but I will keep snapping on the petzl ascenders w/ handles on them and the stir-up on the bottom of one of them for the high climbs.

I thought it was slick idea to wrap the rope around the boot once on the descent, and step on it with the other one before loosening my rope grabber. One wrap around the boot was essentially a figure 8 on the line.







This cheap device is probably all a guy needs and maybe a shunt above it, but will it ruin the rope? 

I think it's a good idea to stick to the prussic or blakes knot when actually working in the tree and not just entering the tree. None of the mechanical devices I've seen are capable of immediately grabbing the rope if there is a fall except for the ascenders with the little teeth. The problem is the teeth don't let the mechanical device slide like I want when I'm working.

So that's enough of this subject for now. Thanks for the knowledge. I always brag on you guys here to anyone I talk Arb-talk to. My "roady" and I got a kick out of the new techniques and so forth today. 


Aerialist's, that system is genius. Definitely slick. +1


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

*tibloc*



ForTheAction said:


> The DRT was OK today :msp_thumbup:, and just for sport I taught my "roady" everything I know about it as I set up. Teaching always helps the full understanding of subjects, and it's a good investment to keep teach somebody your craft.
> 
> I only put on the prussic tender and put on a medium petzl rope grabber from my old flipline. That was it. No foot locking, but these were all only about 15'+ climbs today.
> 
> ...



tibloc is not ansi compliant for life support, if that matters to you. handy lightweight tool, but I don't climb on it.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 22, 2011)

Iustinian said:


> tibloc is not ansi compliant for life support, if that matters to you. handy lightweight tool, but I don't climb on it.



Thanks for the word. Yeah, it matters.


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## Iustinian (Nov 22, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> Thanks for the word. Yeah, it matters.



Right on. One of my favorite ropes is a 10mm, and it's technically not ANSI complaint either, but my 10mm is rated for my geared up weight, and I've never had a problem with it, thought maybe you felt the same about your tibloc. 

That having been said, I just found this: 

"I think it is important to have a contrasting view on this piece of hardware. If it is not used correctly it will DESTROY a rope. Although this is true for several pieces of climbing equipment, I have yet to see something that has as many dangerous set up methods. You can view the documentation at the Petzl website on all the precautions for this device. 

My main reason for writing this is to tell my Tibloc experience: At the climbing gym I work at, the new classes we teach are always first taught to some staff members. I was part of a self rescue class, taking it with my climbing partner. He had bought the Tibloc a week earlier, having been convinced of its versatility, especially in rescue. We were practicing hauling up an "incompetent second". He was hauling, I was hanging there next to him watching. He set up a vertical z-pulley system (no pulleys, just dual carabiners. Think of a crevasse rescue z-pulley turned vertically.) He added the tibloc to the pulling end of the rope. I know this is kind of hard to imagine, but the general idea is that he wanted to be able to use his body weight to push down on the hauling end of the rope, instead of trying to just pull with his hands. This was especially important because of how much friction the rope experienced with out any pulleys. Anyway, the tibloc was attached to the end of the rope he was pulling on because the prussic would not hold. (Just in case there is still confusion, the set up was: Tibloc and carabiner attached to end of rope being pulled, which was attached to a length of cord which was stood on by the hauler to push down the rope and, through the z-setup, pull up the second climber) I had doubts about the tibloc, but the first few pulls started to convince me that it was a good emergency device. Then it happened. The hauler stood on the cord attached to the tibloc to do another pull and RRRRRIIIIPPPPP!!!!!. I had never heard a sheath rip before, and i hope never to hear it again. My partner had gotten into a rhythm and had not set the tibloc properly and the tibloc ate up a half foot section of sheath. Luckily, we were in a controlled environment and the rope was a training rope, but the person being hauled still jumped right back on the wall and became much more "competent" at that point. I have since told my climbing partner that unless one of us is about to die, and there is no other option, I never want this thing touching any rope that I am on. 

The point is that the tibloc is being praised as a great piece of emergency equipment. However, when the s**t hits the fan and you need to use this thing, you may not pay attention to it enough, and end up in a far worse situation. It is very important for everyone who owns one of these things to get a piece of scrap rope (ask your local gym or climbing store) and at least go though the proper set up of this thing several times. All the right, and wrong, ways of set up should be seen, and the correct uses should be practiced over and over again. You should actually watch it lock as you put weight on it 

I feel that it is counter-intuitive to have a piece of emergency equipment that needs constant attention to be used safely." This thing is dangerous - Petzl Tibloc - Epinions.com 


Based on what he/she said, and the fact that they were in a climbing gym, under the supervision and approval of trained climbers and not subjecting this equipment to the rigors of tree work, I hope that you will stop using that Tibloc for life support. 

stay safe bro


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## beastmaster (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes a tibloc will tare up some ropes. Any ascender that has teeth is bad news if your shock loaded with full weight plus what ever force is generated by a short fall. A toothed acsender can cut throu a line if there is enough shock load on it. I some times use less then perfect tie ins on My SRT. That is why I like a gri gri. If my rope should somehow drop me a few feet from a branch folding or breaking I am still all right. I sometimes use a lot of smaller branches to support me over a canopy. Your not going to fall but you could move suddenly. 
The only toothed acsender I use is a chest croll sometimes and I make sure to have a super good support system.


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## Iustinian (Nov 23, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> Yes a tibloc will tare up some ropes. Any ascender that has teeth is bad news if your shock loaded with full weight plus what ever force is generated by a short fall. A toothed acsender can cut throu a line if there is enough shock load on it. I some times use less then perfect tie ins on My SRT. That is why I like a gri gri. If my rope should somehow drop me a few feet from a branch folding or breaking I am still all right. I sometimes use a lot of smaller branches to support me over a canopy. Your not going to fall but you could move suddenly.
> The only toothed acsender I use is a chest croll sometimes and I make sure to have a super good support system.



I agree 100%. I've used several ascenders, hand, foot, chest, etc., but never without a friction hitch or gri gri back-up (you can always let go of your ahnd ascender to let the gri gri take that impact . Personally, I refuse to use the Ropewalker, Gibbs, or any of the mechanical camming adjustors, because of the simple fact that upon impact, the cam in the Gibbs etc has the possibility of cutting the rope just like the toothed ascenders -- specifically the reason why its stamped right on the device "not for self belay". It was designed for positioning, and not impact. That's precisely the reason why belayers use the Munter Hitch on a HMS biner, and eventually devices like gri gri, reverso, ATC, and now the ID and RIG came out. 

I've just recently started using SRT instead of DRT to see what all the hype was about -- its becomming more natural to me, and is definitely easier -- saves energy, and faster. 

have you been using the rope wrench?


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## the Aerialist (Nov 24, 2011)

*Unicender set up for SRT ...*



Iustinian said:


> ... I've just recently started using SRT instead of DRT to see what all the hype was about -- its becomming more natural to me, and is definitely easier -- saves energy, and faster.
> 
> have you been using the rope wrench?



This was a SRT setup I put together last Winter:






Once the work started coming in I went back to the LockJack out of familiarity. If work slows up this Winter I may put some effort into working with it.


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## limbwalker54 (Nov 24, 2011)

Guess that Blake's hitch was too hard to slide on up, eh?

You know I use a VT on a nice little prusik cord with a tending pulley when I prune large trees, and find it very easy to footlock with that system to grab that next dead limb, etc. 

FTA, Doesn't it make sense to use all of your muscle groups as a whole for your initial ascent? Why try to avoid a practice that can help, even if you get some foot ascenders you will still be using the same concept of full body motion to get you up that tree. Then tie in proper and get to work on the way down.......


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Nov 24, 2011)

*how*

How does all that work together? Seem like something gets added to the uni everyday for improvement. Maybe uni needs to redo there product?


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## the Aerialist (Nov 25, 2011)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> How does all that work together? Seem like something gets added to the uni everyday for improvement. Maybe uni needs to redo there product?




I added the pulley to advance a CMI rope grab with a stirrup on it while my Pantin on the other foot pulls the rope down. The result is a stair step climbing motion using both legs to walk up the rope, just like climbing a ladder. For those of you with advanced foot locking capabilities you can do away with the pulley, Pantin and stirrup and just shinny up the rope.

As I said though, once work started coming in I went back to my dDrt and LockJack, then added the SpiderJack to my bag of tricks so the DRT project got shelved for the Season.

Here's another variation on using the Unicender with SRT where you could use foot locking, although I used a single Pantin to avoid slipping.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 25, 2011)

limbwalker54 said:


> FTA, Doesn't it make sense to use all of your muscle groups as a whole for your initial ascent? Why try to avoid a practice that can help, even if you get some foot ascenders you will still be using the same concept of full body motion to get you up that tree. Then tie in proper and get to work on the way down.......



Body builders......just like to do it the hard way sometimes I guess. :lifter: On the long hauls though, you're right.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 25, 2011)

Aerialist, that's a compact system you have there. What is the little red guy on your line???


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## the Aerialist (Nov 25, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> Aerialist, that's a compact system you have there. What is the little red guy on your line???



In the photo above the "red guy" is a DIM "revolver" carabiner that I put in there to keep the rope aligned with the Unicender. It keeps the rope from jumping out of the last L shaped restraint. Kind of hard to explain, it just keeps things tidy and running smooth.

The green device on the blue Prussic is a Kong "duck" to adjust the distance from the Unicender, you have to pull on it from below, and the Prussic gives me enough room to get a good pull on it. The way the "duck" is set even if it fails my carabiner is through the prussic loop for backup. I don't trust the "duck" as my main attachment.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 25, 2011)

the Aerialist said:


> In the photo above the "red guy" is a DIM "revolver" carabiner that I put in there to keep the rope aligned with the Unicender. It keeps the rope from jumping out of the last L shaped restraint. Kind of hard to explain, it just keeps things tidy and running smooth.
> 
> The green device on the blue Prussic is a Kong "duck" to adjust the distance from the Unicender, you have to pull on it from below, and the Prussic gives me enough room to get a good pull on it. The way the "duck" is set even if it fails my carabiner is through the prussic loop for backup. I don't trust the "duck" as my main attachment.



I'm going to the Sherrill Store now. I'm going to have to clone that system. It must work great, or you wouldn't bother with it.


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## the Aerialist (Nov 25, 2011)

*Now hold on there FTA ...*



ForTheAction said:


> I'm going to the Sherrill Store now. I'm going to have to clone that system. It must work great, or you wouldn't bother with it.



It would work great if you are committed to SRT ~ for me at this time not so much. I did, after all, shelve the SRT project once the work started rolling in this year. In the end I preferred the dDRT setup with my LockJack and SpiderJack. Your individual style must be taken into consideration, and I am not accomplished at SRT climbing. My advice is to master, or at least become familiar with using SRT with just the prussic before you drop $238 on a Unicender. 

Of course if you are a gear geek like me then by all means go for it, I mean after all, what's a couple of hundred for some climbing bling like the Unicender?


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## Iustinian (Nov 25, 2011)

yea, you shouldnt trust the duck, or the wildcountry ropeman, which is identical -- neither are *gasp* ansi compliant for life support.

Unicender is one peice of gear I havent tried yet, although I've heard it's nice. I might try the rope wrench soon though. 

I've been trying RADS, yo-yo, w/e you want to call it lol. works well, just haven't gotten used to it like I have drt -- wont take long though I think.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 28, 2011)

OK, on a serious note now. 


I think Spiderjack II. 


Mostly that's all I'm thinking 
.....plus a 2xhandle CMI ascender up-top with foot harness down-low to clip on the saddle for the long climbs and redirects. The ART retrievable friction saver or quick kit is kind of looking right to me too.


That's it. It doesn't get any simpler, faster or versatile for next season.


Anybody see the pros and cons to this setup????


:spiderman:

http://new.climb-art.com/


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## the Aerialist (Nov 28, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> OK, I think Spiderjack II... The ART retrievable friction saver or quick kit is kind of looking right to me too... Anybody see the pros and cons to this setup????



About the only "con" to the SpiderJack is that it can not be installed mid-line so you end up with it on a dedicated rope. It also limits you to only one spliced end so you can slide it on the rope from the non spliced end. Optimal use for this device is with a pulley, although I use it with a leather cambium saver for rapid deployment. Yesterday I worked in a drizzling rain all day and once thoroughly soaked the friction through the leather tube became objectionable. The friction through the SpiderJack also increased and the wet rope didn't "flow" through it as well, but it was still usable although it seemed like I was back to tending a friction knot. The SJ's holding power was even better than with dry rope so I never felt insecure.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 28, 2011)

That's good to know.

Yeah, it doesn't pop on and off midline, but I think that is a tiny price to pay for the advantages that piece. 

Do you know if that TWINJACK is a dual cam deal? 

Here is why I ask. When I shoot a rope up into the tree, I just want a 1:1 ratio climb because that is as fast as I can get along. So I'm getting a KONG or Ascentree dual rope/2 hand ascender and a foot harness + elastic cord. 

I would just climb up both legs of the rope together with a KONG and foot harness. Then once I'm in a spot, I can just toss the KONG and harness back on the saddle until I need them again for the next high climb in the tree. 

The KONG and foot harness are the "elevator gear," and the SJ2 is the "working gear." It's a simple plan. The thing is that don't think any of the JACK devices have a dual cam for two legs of rope at once do they? Do you know?

For "elevator moves," I'll probably just find some kind of dual ascender that I can attach right at the saddle bridge where the SJ2 should be. Oh, and of course since the SJ2 does not detach/reattach, I'll just leave it on the line as I transcend. No need to take it off.


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## Iustinian (Nov 28, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> That's good to know.
> 
> Yeah, it doesn't pop on and off midline, but I think that is a tiny price to pay for the advantages that piece.
> 
> ...



I quit buying Kong gear after reading about a few accidents with their stuff breaking. In particular, if I remember correctly, they subbed out production of some rings to China and they were not laser etched nor batch tested. They had a huge recall on them after at least one fatal accident, possibly more if remember right. Tobe Sherrill refunded the replacement value of them, which was a stand-up move, but I quit buying any Kong products after that. Additionally, warnings have been issued that the Chinese have copied several Petzl products down to the packaging, so you should only buy Petzl products from a licensed dealer hereinafter.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 28, 2011)

It seems like you know a lot about this business.


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## Iustinian (Nov 28, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> It seems like you know a lot about this business.



thanks ya thanks ya lol.

When I'm at work, I'm at work; When I'm at home, I'm at work hahahahahaha


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 29, 2011)

I compare the two, home and work, to driving a noice little Ford 500 or the nice, new Boeing 787 Dreamliner. Who can help it?


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 29, 2011)

I left the piece hanging about an SRT line over a fork at the end of a branch. I guess everyone else has already been there, and I'm the one just coming to this point in climbing finally. 

*Is this the trick in the diagram common for anyone?*

The theory is based on the concept that you would avoid limb walking all of the branches. A climber sets up a TIP or "redirect" on the end of a high branch, and then he DRTs from it on the outside of a tree. He can access it from top to bottom from the outside, and in concept it's a bit like bucket truck access except with a rope trick. 







I'm not getting paid for art tricks, so art-critics just stand by. :tongue2:


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## beastmaster (Nov 29, 2011)

Modern Art I love it.:smile2: Other then haveing the end of the srt tied off, no reason you have to do that. The concept is correct. I would just work off of the single line in that situation But we were talking about drt off the sw. May not of been the best example of that.
Yes with multiple lines you could quickly cover the outside of the tree. The fact you can quickly and easily come back up with out getting wore out is what makes this so feasible. Now if you had to really redirect while on a out side SRT line that is were switching over to DRT off of the srt would be advantages.
Today after I finished a crane removal I had to remove several big very dead branches from an Oak tree that were over a roof and deck right on the lake in Lake Arrowhead. This was a tall Oak with all its leaders starting at over 50 feet. Can't gaff it, but it was a piece of cake to shoot a line up high and SRT up. You would of had to been on superman status to pull your self up that tree. On another trunk over the driveway. that had a savoir lean and also a big dead branch, this was 45 ft up or so. I easily throw a line over it.( From the deck) and SRTed right to the dead branch, cut it from underneath and was out of there. A year ago I would of walk out on that sucker using a good high tie in. Bottom line Thanks to SRT and the Rads, I finished that job in half the time it would of took me a year ago. Two high ascends and never broke a sweat.(maybe a little cradleing the big dead branch down over the roof) I am sure if I hadn't of did that tree it would of got gaffed by some one else.
It wasn't me I give credit to, but SRT for getting that job done. Just an example.


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## ForTheArborist (Nov 30, 2011)

Yep, tactical moves, BM.

You are in the good parts with all the trees :msp_thumbup: I bet it's freezing. It's not even cool down here except at night. Nights here would be warm for anyone else except who lives here. 

You know, the deal with that diagram and the red line looping back to the trunk is to pull yourself back in. Otherwise you'd just SRT up and down the outside w/o being able to come back in. I think I might use this stunt this week to refine an Aleppo Pine. Eh, and I guess I'll do it even without the Spiderjack II or Secret Weapon in the mix. 

There's plenty of opportunity for the DRT off of the SRT, but it's not going to be every single job. 

So what do you know about buying an SJ2 in the US? Sherrill is the only ART dealership, and they don't carry the SJ2. Maybe I should order it from England or something. I'm sure someone in Ausy would think it would something to send something here.


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