# Chainsaw timber framing?



## sachsmo (Jan 8, 2014)

Is there a book, or other good resources on the topic?

I want to do something with a bunch of 12-20" White Ash logs.


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## Greenland South (Jan 8, 2014)

http://www.loghomestore.com/c203-timberframe-books.php


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## sachsmo (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks!

which would you recommend?

probably just wing it, since i'm just going to knotch them with me saw.

planning on 20 foot logs supported with 10 foot tall 16 to 20 inchers (White Ash) spaced every 7.5 foot on center

It will be an enclosure inside a big pole barn.

Planning on 20x30, with a mezz on top. 

Then I could run everyone out with me old smoke dragon eh?


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## MustangMike (Jan 13, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Is there a book, or other good resources on the topic?
> 
> I want to do something with a bunch of 12-20" White Ash logs.



I don't have a book, but I will be glad to provide advice. I have 50 acres in upstate NY (Catskills) and lots of Ash (and some Cherry) have blown down the past few years, far too many for firewood. I am also worried that with the Emerald Ash Bore that they may never grow back. So I made (all 6.5" X 6.5") 8-12" posts, 2-17' posts, 4-20' beams, 2-27' beams, and a 3" X 9.5" X 27' Ridge Beam and I'm building a new Post & Beam Hunting Cabin. It will be 20 X 24 with overhangs front & back of 1.5'. Did it all at very low cost with my chain saws. It was a lot of work, but what I learned could save you some time.

If you are interested let me know and I will provide you with any details you want and pictures to show the results (it is not finished, but the framing is all up).

MustangMike


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## MustangMike (Jan 13, 2014)

sachsmo said:


> Is there a book, or other good resources on the topic?
> 
> I want to do something with a bunch of 12-20" White Ash logs.



Also, before I forget to tell you, even though Ash is a strong hard wood, do not forget to protect it, it is not as resistant to insects as some other woods.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 14, 2014)

I'd like to see that Mike.


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I'd like to see that Mike.



You got it, I will start posting stuff later today.


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I'd like to see that Mike.



The essential tools needed (in addition to a good Chainsaw) are 1) The Beam Machine (about $40 - $50), 2) Stihl Narrow Kerf Rip Chain and 3) I used a Granberg Hand Held 12V sharpener (about $40) with a 5/16 diamond stone.

Getting the logs: We did not have heavy duty equipment, so to transport the logs to our worksite my nephew (MechanicMatt) modified a boat trailer. The front of the log was chained to the boat trailer and the rest of it was dragged with an ATV. Otherwise, the log will dig into the dirt and you will go nowhere.

1) The Beam Machine - A simple device (available through Baileys, etc) attaches to your guide bar and runs along 2X4s. To get 6.5" X 6.5" adjust it out 3 turns from the recommended setting (or you will get 4" square). It is very important when you attach the 2 X 4s to the logs that they are both straight and level. We used deck screws and shims. It is also important as you pivot the saw, the pressure from you left hand is on the left top of your handle bar (otherwise the saw may toe in and your timber will not be square).

2) I used a 20" Stihl narrow kerf rip chain on my 044 and MS 441. The narrow kerf rip chain cuts much faster than a wider chain, but you will need to gas your saw often and sharpen your chain often. The angle on the rip chain is 10 degrees instead of 30 degrees. THESE CHAINS ARE NOT AVAILABLE THROUGH YOUR STIHL DEALER. Stihl makes them exclusively for Logosol and I believe Baileys is the exclusive Logosol importer (so you can get them, in various lengths, through Bialeys).

3) My property is 2 miles in on a 4 wheel drive road (no electricity) so the Granberg 12V hand held sharpener was indispensable. You can hook it up to the car battery and I also had a deep cycle battery that I used. DO NOT USE THE CRAPPY GRINDING STONE THAT COMES WITH IT, THEY ARE WORTHLESS. Buy the diamond stone sharpeners (I got 5/16 for my rip chains and 7/16 for my regular chains). Also found it was more convenient to have two sharpeners than to switch the stones. I also often kept a crosscut chain on one saw and a rip chain on the other.

We cut 1" notches in the beams to accommodate the posts, etc. For low cost connectors, we cut 4" angle iron 6" long and drilled 3 holes in each tab. 1 - 1/2" hole for a bolt and tow 3/8" holes for lag screws. We also used an industrial strength adhesive in the joints.

I will attache pictures in subsequent posts. Let me know if you have any questions.


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> You got it, I will start posting stuff later today.



Gathering & Cutting Lumber


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I'd like to see that Mike.



We used the side pieces from the logs for struts and will also use them for rafter ties.

The sides have 12' posts plus the 6.5X6.5. The bottom of the Ridge Beam is 17'. The 20' cross pieces are 8' high and will support the loft. The loft will be 9' high in the middle and 4.5' on the sides.

Not bad for a low cost using what was there job, right? Let me know what you think. We are done for the season due to the snow, but plan to finish in the Spring. The big delay (for us) was waiting for the site work to be done. Had to wait till the Bluestone company had some heavy duty equipment up on the mountain.


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## MustangMike (Jan 14, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I'd like to see that Mike.



Last thing I forgot to mention, they will try to tell you that you need a new bar to use the narrow kerf chain. The bars were back ordered, so I learned I did not really need them. The narrow kerf rip chain works just fine with your regular bar.

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 14, 2014)

Uncle Mike what is the gauge of the rip chain? .050??


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## MustangMike (Jan 15, 2014)

MechanicMatt said:


> Uncle Mike what is the gauge of the rip chain? .050??



Yes, on Baileys website search "stihl rip" and it will come up.

How do you think I did showing it?


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 15, 2014)

The pics are good, but seeing it in real life shows the real size of it.


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 17, 2014)

No replies guys??? Ya'll don't like what me and crew of old guys made out of some fallen timber? Took a LOT of muscle to get those trees turned into the new cabin, but well worth it.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 17, 2014)

I can't see the pics other than the thumbnails.


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 17, 2014)

Jim click on them.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 17, 2014)

I've been using computers since 1988, BBS's since '92, and the interwebs since `94. I clicked on them. They pull up a shadow box with a bunch of lines and no larger image.

It's either an IE11 bug, or a forum bug. I can't get any of your pics to work, and other threads have been wonky as well. I haven't tried another browser yet though.


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## hamish (Jan 17, 2014)

Looks good guys. All you need now is a lot more trees, time, and a sawmill!


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm on a nook, they start out with the lines then they clear up after a few seconds


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## Jim Timber (Jan 17, 2014)

I watched this the other night and found it quite informative:


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 17, 2014)

hamish said:


> Looks good guys. All you need now is a lot more trees, time, and a sawmill!


We have tons of trees, the retired guys have nothing but time. And man o' man! Id love to have a mill up there. We used a lot of steel brackets for strength, but the coolest is my uncles best bud is a real craftsman he notched and chisled the resesses out for the strut braces. His mallet is made out of leather, I thought the mallet was the coolest. Raising the ridge beam was wild, wish we had photos of that part. Jim, cool video.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 17, 2014)

I like the timber frame raising video's as much as the next guy, but I really like the ones that show you how and why. The second hour of that one I posted gets into some cool tricks and the how and why mortise and tenons are done like they are.


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## hamish (Jan 17, 2014)

Traditional timber framing definitely has its place. If I were to do it I would have to be retired or plan on working on it till I am retired. The use of different brackets and fasteners definitely speed the process along. We built our addition on our hunt camp using a mix of many different building techniques. Jointery was much easier incorporating different styles.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 18, 2014)

I don't think the joints are all that difficult or time consuming with the right tooling, but erecting the structure without a crane scares the bejezus out of me.

I also worry about doing all the milling, and end cuts, only to assemble it months later and not have stuff fit.


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

hamish said:


> Looks good guys. All you need now is a lot more trees, time, and a sawmill!



Thanks for the comment. We will likely use store bought lumber to finish it. I just could not all those straight blown down Ash trees go to waste, and with the Emerald Ash Bore in the area, they may never grow back again.


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I've been using computers since 1988, BBS's since '92, and the interwebs since `94. I clicked on them. They pull up a shadow box with a bunch of lines and no larger image.
> 
> It's either an IE11 bug, or a forum bug. I can't get any of your pics to work, and other threads have been wonky as well. I haven't tried another browser yet though.



These were all downloaded pictures my brother took. I will post some that I took and hopefully you can open them. Who knows what happens to pictures when they go through the internet filters. I just won't have pictures of me cutting!


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I don't think the joints are all that difficult or time consuming with the right tooling, but erecting the structure without a crane scares the bejezus out of me.
> 
> I also worry about doing all the milling, and end cuts, only to assemble it months later and not have stuff fit.



No electricity up there (unless we bring up the generator), the walls (12' X 27') weigh just under 1,000 lbs and we levered them up, then finish with a hand crank rope come along. I'll post some more pictures.


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

Jim Timber said:


> I don't think the joints are all that difficult or time consuming with the right tooling, but erecting the structure without a crane scares the bejezus out of me.
> 
> I also worry about doing all the milling, and end cuts, only to assemble it months later and not have stuff fit.



Got an error message about "file too large" after 3 pics, will try again.


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Got an error message about "file too large" after 3 pics, will try again.


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

I guess I can only do one picture at a time w/o error. Finally, would not let me show about 6 pics!


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## MustangMike (Jan 18, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I guess I can only do one picture at a time w/o error. Finally, would not let me show about 6 pics!



Sorry, I would love to post more pictures, but it keeps telling me they are too large. Go figure. Took them with my cell phone.

The left & right walls have 4-12' posts and a 27' beam on top (all 6.5" X 6.5") the Ridge Beam is 3" X 9.5" X 27' and is on 17" posts front and back. 4-20' Cross Beams will provide support for the loft, which will be 9' high in the middle and 4 1/2' high at the walls. The cabin will be one clear room 20 X 24 with 1.5' overhangs on front & back.


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## Jim Timber (Jan 18, 2014)

That'll be a nice size room.


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## sachsmo (Jan 18, 2014)

Mine should be pretty easy, just an enclosure inside a concrete floored pole building.

The outer 'beams' are 6x6 spaced ~7.5 foot on center.


Should be able to find a few 30 footers for the headers. Notch them for the beams and dowel them or just nail cleats under them?

22' out to uprights of 16 to 20 inch white ash.

Square up one end and leave the exposed natural on the 22 foot spans, 22'x30' ought to be just right for working on a vehicle eh? 

Got a boatload of 5/4s, enough to have a really nice mezz up above.


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 18, 2014)

Sachsmo, there are nicer more expensive devices out there.....but that beam machine paid for its self 100 time over. We used some pretty stout angle iron with 5/8th carriage bolts grade 8 to attach along with about a 1/4th inch notch. I took a old row boat trailer and shortened it and gusseted and welded like every seam. Attached it to my pops kawasaki 400 4x4 to skid the logs to our "landing zone" If your gonna be moving 30 footers, you better get one end off the ground so id doesn't just dig in. Sounds like your gonna have fun, oh yeah after getting the frame up I joked to the old guys that were gonna have to build one of these in my back yard next for a car shop : )


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## MechanicMatt (Jan 18, 2014)

My Uncle and Pops and there pal Harold were the brains of the operation. MustangMike can fill you in on the particulars of the angle iron. Id guess they were 6inch and 3/8 thick. The only thing my brain did was build a log trailer, looked in a northern tool catalog to get a picture of something then tried to engineer a picture in my mind out of that old trailer. Ive been known to say " A MILLERMATIC is a beautiful thing".


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## mainepatriot (Apr 6, 2014)

What are you treating the freshly cut beams with?


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## rarefish383 (Apr 6, 2014)

Mike, Matt, I don't know how I missed this thread earlier, but when you get rolling again please keep the pics coming. I'm sure there are a bunch of us wanting to do the same thing, Joe.


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## MechanicMatt (Apr 6, 2014)

I was just talking to my Uncle the other day. Hopefully this late April early May we get cracking again.


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## MustangMike (Apr 7, 2014)

Sorry I have not posted here for a while, my e-mail stopped notifying me of activity. I'll try to post the pictures of where we left off. Basically, the timbers are up. We were rushed because the site work was not done until Oct and winter was coming. This place is 2.5 hours from home. The ridge beam is 3" X 9.5" X 27'. The Ridge Beam posts are 17' to the bottom of the Ridge Beam.


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## MustangMike (Apr 7, 2014)

We used 4" angle iron for low cost brackets. We cut them 6" long (the posts & beams are all 6.5" X 6.5"). Each ear has a 1/2" hole for a bolt and two 3/8" holes for lags. We also cut a 1" notch at each joint. My buddy Harold cut Us at the top of the two Ridge Posts to accommodate the Ridge Beam.

I plan to use store bought 2 X 10 rafters to keep the roof straight. The struts are from the side pieces cut from the logs and will have the curve of the tree on the inside. Should look sharp.


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## MustangMike (Apr 7, 2014)

mainepatriot said:


> What are you treating the freshly cut beams with?



These are all from down trees. We did not treat them with anything, but will stain them (to protect from bugs) before covering them. We lost 2 posts from excessive checking and warping. You could hear one of them breaking as soon as we got done cutting it. It was scary! I may also do what I see the old timers sometimes did and run a bolt through a beam that is checking to keep it together. 

I'm busy in tax season till 4/15, but should be able to resume soon.


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## SCHallenger (Apr 7, 2014)

Fantastic stuff!!! You are building a lot of great memories & good times & having fun in the process!!


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## MustangMike (Apr 7, 2014)

SCHallenger said:


> Fantastic stuff!!! You are building a lot of great memories & good times & having fun in the process!!



Thanks, it is a lot of work, but the reward should also be really good.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 9, 2014)

Check out the forestry forum's timberframing forum for traditional timberframing methods.

When you buck up ash logs (or cut beams to length) coat them with anchorseal to prevent checking, ash checks easily. Store the beams stickered and covered on top out of direct sunlight. When you cut tenons coat them too.

Spraying ash logs/timbers with borax solution will keep the powder post beetles at bay.

Concerning stihl PMX picco chain you need a picco drive sprocket, and a picco tip or hardnose bar, otherwise the chain will mismatch with the sprockets. This will beat up the drivers on the chain. This has been beaten to death on the milling forum.


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## MustangMike (Apr 9, 2014)

The chain I used was compatable with my saw. When I get time to go out to the shed I will post the specs, but you can only get it though Baileys even though it is Shihl chain. The reason is Stihl produces it for Logosol, and Bialeys is the importer.

Thanks for the other advice on the wood. We really started this not knowing anything about it.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 9, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> The chain I used was compatable with my saw. When I get time to go out to the shed I will post the specs, but you can only get it though Baileys even though it is Shihl chain. The reason is Stihl produces it for Logosol, and Bialeys is the importer.
> 
> Thanks for the other advice on the wood. We really started this not knowing anything about it.




Logosol is the importer who brings stihl PMX chain (lo pro 3/8) into the USA, Baileys distributes it for them. It is EXPENSIVE! They also sell the *correct* spur picco sprocket for use with the 066/660, and 3003 mount picco bars. Note that stihl does not make picco rims for the larger saws.

You can buy this stuff from a stihl dealer outside of the USA.

Do a search on this forum, I believe the thread was "getting serious about lo-pro", started by mtgun.

It will explain why a normal 3/8 sprocket/bar is not compatible with PMX/lo-pro chains, with lots of pictures of what happens when you mismatch the bar/chain/sprocket setups.

P.S. get your favorite beverage before starting reading the thread, it's a long one with lots of info.......


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## MustangMike (Apr 9, 2014)

I will research that, but I ran it on both my 044 and 441 w/o any noticeable issues. I purchased (on Bailey's recommendation) 63 PMX 72. It also says, 72; 3/8*P; .050.


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## MustangMike (Apr 9, 2014)

I found the thread. I will check the chain when I get a chance, but they are basically talking about problems with 066 and larger saws. Perhaps the 044/441 don't have that problem. I did not have any issues, but after my busy tax season is over, I will compare chains.

One poster said they are both really .367 (not .375 like true 3/8) but that the side rails are thinner. Perhaps my size saws did not have a problem. I ripped 4-27' logs, 4-20' logs, 2-18' logs and 12-12' logs into 6.5 X 6.5 posts & beams w/o any problems. Sure cut a lot faster. Never noticed any damage to drivers. Would think the guys at Baileys (I spoke to one of the "experts" in the back room) would warn of these things if it was a problem. The Expert is the one who told me about this chain.

They did recommend different bar, but they were back ordered and my bars worked just fine.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 9, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I found the thread. I will check the chain when I get a chance, but they are basically talking about problems with 066 and larger saws. Perhaps the 044/441 don't have that problem. I did not have any issues, but after my busy tax season is over, I will compare chains.
> 
> One poster said they are both really .367 (not .375 like true 3/8) but that the side rails are thinner. Perhaps my size saws did not have a problem. I ripped 4-27' logs, 4-20' logs, 2-18' logs and 12-12' logs into 6.5 X 6.5 posts & beams w/o any problems. Sure cut a lot faster. Never noticed any damage to drivers. Would think the guys at Baileys (I spoke to one of the "experts" in the back room) would warn of these things if it was a problem. The Expert is the one who told me about this chain.
> 
> They did recommend different bar, but they were back ordered and my bars worked just fine.



It has nothing to do with the saw it is the fact that the picco/lo-pro drivers do not engage properly on regular 3/8 sprockets, the drive sprocket or the bar tip sprocket. Take a new 3/8 sprocket and wrap a new picco chain vs a new 3/8 chain around the sprocket, you will see the picco does not fit properly. 

You can adapt the old style 036 clutch to the larger stihl saws and then use a picco rim used on stihls smaller saws. Problem with this is then you also need to use the wimpy little clutch bearing, that stihl deemed too small for the 036/360, on a larger saw milling.

Or you can but the pricey picco spur sprocket for the 066 from logosol.

Or you, or someone, can fabricate picco rims that will fit the medium spline stihl rim clutches. Some have done this by turning down 0.404 rims. I had a bunch of picco rims made up by a company that makes sprockets for race saws. I have a lifetime supply now and they were cheaper than buying the picco spur sprockets from logosol.

Read some more of the long thread I mentioned, there are plenty of pictures that illustrate what I have told you. Some showing the wear and damage that will occur.

As far as Bailey's "expert", he needs to be properly educated.


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## MustangMike (Apr 9, 2014)

I thank you for the advice and after tax season I will look into it further. I am also perplexed at how I got away with doing what I did w/o any problems. I will carefully compare the chains to one another after tax season. Also, regarding the Borax Solution, how often should that be done?

I was also planning on applying some home made Wallnut Stain and then covering that with a protective stain. Wallnut Stain is supposed to protect against bugs also. I made a bunch of it, but it washes off (outside) if you do not protect it.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 9, 2014)

Borax is a preventative, once the bugs (powder post beetles) get inside they will do their thing regardless. Coat things before you stack and sticker, and cover the top, so rain will not wash it off. A solution in a sprayer will work.

PP beetles will leave tiny holes and frass (chewings) when they emerge from wood. They really like ash especially when it still has some moisture.

Borax is cheap and relatively non-toxic unless you drink it (laundry additive). Boric acid (medical grade) is used for eye washes ( a mild disinfectant) and is found in things like Visesene (sp?). 

Borax/boric acid works great on other insects too, like ants and roaches, mix some up in a slurry with some sugar or honey (bait), and the insects will take it home to kill their kin. Sometimes ants want protein rather than sugar, put the borate on meat scrapes. Works great to keep carpenter ants out of firewood piles too.

If you need a connection to get mid size stihl picco rims PM me. I had to order a large run to make it worthwhile for the machinist to make them, and cheap enough for me to buy them. I am sure he would do another run but would need 40-50 to make it worthwhile.


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## MountainHigh (Apr 19, 2014)

Great project Mike ... nice photos.
Makes you really appreciate the effort that went into doing things in the old days.


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## MustangMike (Apr 19, 2014)

You got that right, it was a ton of work even with saws and drills and metal brackets. The old timers are to be respected.

Glad you liked it.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 20, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> You got that right, it was a ton of work even with saws and drills and metal brackets. The old timers are to be respected.
> 
> Glad you liked it.


Mike nice work , Happy Easter!

It does make you wonder how much work it was without electric and gasoline. I'm starting to know!

I had an old friend who did work that way and I'm still trying to get all the tools together to follow in his steps. I have learned joinery layout using a divider, plum bob, and chalk line. IMHO better than square rule. No tapes rulers squares gadgets needed.........


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## MustangMike (Apr 20, 2014)

Happy Easter to you also. Technology can be a good thing, but it is also a shame we loose so much knowledge due to technology. Many of the old methods were nothing short of brilliant.


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## Grande Dog (Apr 22, 2014)

Howdy,
You did a great job using that beam machine. I don't know if you plan on moving into larger projects after this one but, I found for larger beams, the basic Alaskan Mill does an excellent job. People generally think of them for slabbing. You only have to roll the log one time, 90 degrees. With the standard set up you can do very accurate beams up to 12" x 12". They do have extensions that allow beams up to 36" x 36".
You can drive picco with a .404 x 8 tooth rim with no damage to the chain.
Regards
Gregg


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## MustangMike (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks for the advice. The Beam Machine is a little crude, but that made it perfect for this project. I'm planning on buying rafters, not sure yet what I will do for siding, the basic Alaskan may be good for that. However, the bottom has to be porcupine proof (stone, metal or concrete board). They are a terrible problem, will eat plywood, treated wood, rubber & aluminum!

If you leave a vehicle too long they will eat the break lines and radiator hoses, and they even chewed through the tire of a skidder that was next door.

The trick with the beam machine is getting the 2X4 guide to be both straight & level, and then being very consistent with your saw so it stays square. It is nice that it lets the saw pivot.

I used that chain with my 044 and 441 w/o any issues, with the standard Stihl bars.


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## Mad Professor (Apr 22, 2014)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> You did a great job using that beam machine. I don't know if you plan on moving into larger projects after this one but, I found for larger beams, the basic Alaskan Mill does an excellent job. People generally think of them for slabbing. You only have to roll the log one time, 90 degrees. With the standard set up you can do very accurate beams up to 12" x 12". They do have extensions that allow beams up to 36" x 36".
> You can drive picco with a .404 x 8 tooth rim with no damage to the chain.
> Regards
> Gregg



Gregg, I think you need to turn the 0.404 rim down a bit to match 0.375 picco pitch.

Pi R squared is circumference. Do that with 0.0404 X 8 , then with 0.375 X 8, what do you get? How is circumference? Why does a 9 pin 03twofive run a chain as fast as a 8 pin 0.375?

But even though, picco and standard 0.375 have the same pitch, the DRIVERS engage DIFFERENTLY. LOOK at the drivers!!!

Try to match 0.375 sprocket to new chain, then do it with 0.375 picco. And vice versa.......

It don't fit........NOPE!

I did not go this route. After buying $tihl picco $purs I had some rims made up... $$$$$

Maybe you guys could hook up with Dan(see)co ( my PC keypad is broken) and offer correct picco rims that are not special order? Ed is good to talk/deal with.

It is too bad Stihl does not Stihl offer 3003 mount bars with picco tips. Yes they are different, and there is a reason.

I have those bars where my mill is and can post OEM part numbers, later on.

P.S, For us Millers, since you have the "magic" connection, with Logosol now. Why do they extort Americans for picco chains/bars, when you you can buy them CHEAP , overseas???

NOT, NOT, NOT, a critisism. Just know you can get Stihl chain in Europe for 75-50% less. Stihl Chain always costs a bit more, here, but PMX at least 100% more. Why???


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## Grande Dog (Apr 23, 2014)

Howdy,
The reason the .404 x 8 works is because of the radial length of the ported grooves of the rim. (would never work with a spur) It basically never engages more than one driver at a time, whereas normal engagement is say 3 drivers at a time. Take your saw, and get it to the edge of your bench so that it will allow the chain to hang straight down. Have the rim so the open ports are facing you. Now roll the chain back and forth. It'll be smooth as silk, no climbing or pushing of the chain. If you look close as it rolls, you'll see that really only 1 driver is engaged at a time.
The reason that PMX is so high is because there's only one game in town, and they know it.
You can get around the picco bar tips by using a hardnose bar, and a helper handle with a roller
Regards
Gregg


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## Mad Professor (Apr 24, 2014)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> The reason the .404 x 8 works is because of the radial length of the ported grooves of the rim. (would never work with a spur) It basically never engages more than one driver at a time, whereas normal engagement is say 3 drivers at a time. Take your saw, and get it to the edge of your bench so that it will allow the chain to hang straight down. Have the rim so the open ports are facing you. Now roll the chain back and forth. It'll be smooth as silk, no climbing or pushing of the chain. If you look close as it rolls, you'll see that really only 1 driver is engaged at a time.
> The reason that PMX is so high is because there's only one game in town, and they know it.
> You can get around the picco bar tips by using a hardnose bar, and a helper handle with a roller
> ...



But that will put all the stress on one driver/link, on a picco/lo pro chain, that will be used on a 90+cc saw.

How come woodland lo pro 3/8 ripping chain is NLA?


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## Grande Dog (Apr 24, 2014)

Howdy,
As far as I know, (no high speed photography) you're right about all the stress on one link. I've seen chains run this way, and it doesn't damage the drive links. As far as breakage goes, I don't have any solid information on the ratio. Of course I've seen more breakage using standard 3/8 rims but, that has to be because way more people are using them.
You'll be seeing quite a few of the Woodland PRO / Carlton chains going away. You can thank Blount for that.
Regards
Gregg


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## Mad Professor (Apr 24, 2014)

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> As far as I know, (no high speed photography) you're right about all the stress on one link. I've seen chains run this way, and it doesn't damage the drive links. As far as breakage goes, I don't have any solid information on the ratio. Of course I've seen more breakage using standard 3/8 rims but, that has to be because way more people are using them.
> You'll be seeing quite a few of the Woodland PRO / Carlton chains going away. You can thank Blount for that.
> Regards
> Gregg



Thank you Gregg,

I should have stocked up on chains longs ago, the price of sprockets and bars were worse. I am set on picco 3003 bars and the 3/8 picco rims I had made up.

I have some friends in Europe that might be able to send me some "care" packages of PMX chains.


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