# There are those that would end wood heating...



## CrappieKeith (Nov 10, 2010)

http://woodburnersmoke.net/


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## sjp (Nov 10, 2010)

that fourm going to p#ss alot of people off on this sightopcorn:
read their whole web site there out of control "we'll help you sue your neighbor"
''killing 300,000 people a year"


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 10, 2010)

Their success stories:



> Bylaws & Bans
> 
> Golden, B.C. passed a bylaw prohibiting the installation of any solid fuel burning appliance (Bylaw # 1150)
> 
> ...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 10, 2010)

They have a lot of friends and accomplices on this site.



All those guys who burn green wood, trash, RR ties, etc., and claim it's nobody else's business.


They are directly helping the idiots who want to ban woodburning.


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## sjp (Nov 10, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> They have a lot of friends and accomplices on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"All those guys who burn green wood, trash, RR ties, etc., and claim it's nobody else's business."
thats different than a property owner useing a wood stove to heat house


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## Muffler Bearing (Nov 10, 2010)

If i didn't burn wood?? How would I be able to get rid of all those old tires?


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## Jredsjeep (Nov 10, 2010)

that site is some scary stuff..........i thought burning wood was the green way to go. i guess that coal burning/nuclear power plant is greener than using a completely renewable resource i have in my own back yard.


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## Somesawguy (Nov 10, 2010)

I burn wood, but the guys that are smoking out the neighborhood with their OWB burning green wood are their own worst enemy. I came across a guy in the middle of town the other day, that had a good blanket of smoke going from his OWB.


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## Kingsley (Nov 10, 2010)

> I'm truly sorry you have been misinformed. You should have taken an unbiased approch to researching wood heat. I hope that you take some time away from your ranting website and read more about the long history of wood burning and the proper procedures in how to do so. The pictures of wood burning pollution "proof" are utterly ridiculous. To save yourself embarrassment from any intelligent reader of your website you should remove them, otherwise they may come to the conclusion they are dealing with a complete lunatic.
> 
> 
> 
> Marty



Email sent.
Marty


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## CrappieKeith (Nov 10, 2010)

Very well done Marty...most of the banning that I saw came from "cities".
However,they do have an agenda.I just thought you guys might be interested in what's going on out there.


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## Walt41 (Nov 10, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> They have a lot of friends and accomplices on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely, on my drive to Maine, I drove thru some areas that were completely smoked out from OWB's. Some were pretty bad and could easily serve as the poster child for these people. Once again we have a few jack bags ruining it for the rest.


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## HeX0rz (Nov 10, 2010)

I take it this is all for you canucks... One alternative to consider is to get a boiler that gasifies. Use seasoned wood, and they would never even know you had a boiler!


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## logbutcher (Nov 10, 2010)

Walt41 said:


> Absolutely, on my drive to Maine, I drove thru some areas that were completely smoked out from OWB's. Some were pretty bad and could easily serve as the poster child for these people. Once again we have a few jack bags ruining it for the rest.



First of all Walt those "jack bags" ( whatever the F that is umpkin2 could not have been in Maine ---"the way life should be". And definately not the land of milk and honey in New Hampshire--"love free or die"; or what we call here in Paradise call the "Dilemma State": "do you want to live or eat fries with that". Sorry WoodBooga, but that state motto has to go.

You and Mark do have good points. Wood stoves or wood burning full time is not for urban areas or valleys where inversions are common.
The OWB phenom has been something of a class thing here: "I'll burn anyway and anything I want damnit". Many OWB have short stacks, no gasification engineering, and no particulate or pollution rating. I'm opposed to any kind of govn't prohibition on this or most anything. 
Also many wood burners do it the way they did it as kids when wood was their only heat and cookstoves were common: throw the logs in, damp the air, go up on the roof ladder once a month to get rid of the stupid creosote you "always" get.

Those ideologues will look for any cause that an easy kill: wood burners are a tiny minority, an easy target since we're independent and usually characters in search of a "leave me alone".

I run Wood Workshops here from time to time. There's always some bird asking how I can say that burning trees is carbon neutral when everyone 'knows' that chainsaws emit carcinogens. Answer? I Ask them, politely, about their 3-4 vehicles, their electronics, their long flights to Bora Bora, vacation homes, their large homes heated by _______, and more.
Today an architect friend explained how one of his "green" homes, ~ 4000ft² was to be heated with a geothermal heat pump and of course 3 fireplaces.
He doesn't call tree burning "solar" energy. 

It's all ideology, a belief system never empirical.

All about choice. Good topic.


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## boyland (Nov 10, 2010)

I hope every member goes to that site at the same time and it crashes.

They can take the BS and shove it.


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## sjp (Nov 10, 2010)

boyland said:


> i hope every member goes to that site at the same time and it crashes.
> 
> They can take the bs and shove it.



+1 i think it would take a lot of people


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## lfnh (Nov 10, 2010)

taxmantoo said:


> Their success stories:



The Marion, Iowa City Council meeting October 21, 2010 Minutes (excerpt):

"Mayor Rehn opened the public hearing regarding an ordinance regulating outdoor wood boiler systems. Planning and Development Director Tom Treharne presented the staff report. Jackie Moore, 1649 Bloomington Road, Mt. Vernon, spoke in favor of the ordinance. Tom Bullis, 2233 3rd Avenue, spoke opposing the ordinance. Richard Dudak, 198 49th Street, stated that he has a wood boiler. He noted that Linn County already has an ordinance in place and he does not see a need for another ordinance regulating the outdoor wood boiler systems. No other comments, written or verbal, were received. Mayor Rehn declared the public hearing closed. "

hmmmm,


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## John R (Nov 10, 2010)

Flock em, I for one am getting sick and tired of the government deciding what I can and can't do.


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## jrr344 (Nov 10, 2010)

I think we should put another log on the fire out of respect of their opinion.


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## MNGuns (Nov 10, 2010)

Somesawguy said:


> I burn wood, but the guys that are smoking out the neighborhood with their OWB burning green wood are their own worst enemy. I came across a guy in the middle of town the other day, that had a good blanket of smoke going from his OWB.




I totally agree. I own and operate a CB5036 and think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I feed it ONLY SEASONED, DRY, WOOD, mainly oak but anything SEASONED WOOD will do nicely. I also watch the site here and try to "educate" other OWB owners to the benefits of seasoned wood. At times I think it is an uphill battle.

While I do like my 5036, I also look forward to purchasing a newer gassifier type boiler, that is more efficient and produces less emissions. I could give a rats arse about the EPA, but I believe the wood heating industry as a whole has a lot of potential growth and room for improvement. If one could produce a stove, boiler, furnace, etc that could heat a home with a couple few cord a year, and have minimal emssions, it would do a lot to reduce our dependancy on oil and gas. I think it completely possible with todays technology.

Please don't think I'm a super green hippy, I just think there could be a better way to do what we all here want


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## woodguy105 (Nov 10, 2010)

Check out the forum and go to smoke stories and click on the technology helps smog...info about something called http://www.fluecube.com/??


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## bluestem (Nov 10, 2010)

I agree with you 100% MNGuns, and no I don't think you are a super green hippy!! It only makes sense to increase the efficiencies of OWBs.


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## RCR 3 EVER (Nov 11, 2010)

*Incinerators and stupid people ruin it for everyone.*

Our city banned leaf burning several years ago which is great since I am highly allergic to the smoke. I ended up in emergency a few times with an asthma attack.

In the process the city allowed open burning in pits with seasoned dry wood *and* burning trash in a house incinerator. What a tradeoff especially the 2nd part. 

The problem it seems many people do not know what a piece of dry seasoned wood is and they burn crap that is wet or green and it billows out thick smoke. It is often impossible to see our trees 60 feet away through the smoke. The fire dept may see this and force the fire to be put out but it always starts up again. The incinerators can NOT be touched or checked since it is within a house. Back to the emergency ward. 
In cool weather (Spring & Fall) instead of opening the windows I HAVE to use the A/C to keep the smoke from entering house with the firepits burning. Ironically I am not bothered by a clean burning wood fire that smokes a little bit.

So bottom line I do not think our stupid city will ban our clean burning 86% efficient fireplace anytime soon. The only smoke seen is for a few minutes during startup.


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## unclemoustache (Nov 11, 2010)

I also sent an Email to that website. I was polite (fairly) and gave good reasons and arguments for why their position is extremist, and why burning wood was (potentially) the greenest and best heat source available.



Don't just sit there and whine, get in the fight.

.


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## WidowMaker (Nov 11, 2010)

John R said:


> Flock em, I for one am getting sick and tired of the government deciding what I can and can't do.



====


You ain't seen nothing yet....


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## avason (Nov 11, 2010)

I've owned mine for about five years and all I burned was green wood. This is the first year that I am burning seasoned, dry wood. I will never burn green wood again. it could be my imagination but I don't think I ever have to worry about the flame catching. i also am burning less wood. Really!

If they gave me a credit to buy one of those gasification systems then I would probably look into getting one. Until they do that it it is still costly for me. Let me point out that I heat over 4000 sqf in the winter. This thing has paid for itself two fold!

Oh yeah...I love turning my stat up to 75 degress and not have to worry about a propane bill!


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## forcedintoit (Nov 11, 2010)

Well look at it this way, they are getting exactly what they want. they go all you guys arguing amongst yourself. You all need to stand up for your rights. if they ban OWB's then the next step is the indoor wood stove. (they still smoke). It is no different than what they try to do with guns, ban the assault weapons, then when when you look at the law your assault weapon includes your favorite bird hunting shotgun or deer rifle. It is all a bunch of government control BS. And i am one that don't fall for it! I agree if you are going to burn try to get the wood seasoned as possible and keep smoke down! Also if you live "close to your neighbor stack your stove above the roof or as high as you can to help your neighbor out! "We need to quit arguing with each other and put that energy towards the Tree huggers / whiners"


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## Kingsley (Nov 11, 2010)

> Don't just sit there and whine, get in the fight.



:agree2:


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## xtm (Nov 11, 2010)

You need to realize that this whole issue has very little to do with smoke...

It's mostly about power and control - it's difficult to control behavior and voting tendencies of people who are self-sufficient. Certain politicians and their leftist lapdog organizations love to champion such causes - ostensibly for the overall good of the public, but actually to keep themselves in $$ and power - freon, incandescent lightbulbs, carbon credits, prohibition, etc., etc. When scholarship changes, proving the original premise incorrect, the juggernaut usually continues along the same path - ignoring the facts...

xtm


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## Jaberwky (Nov 11, 2010)

MNGuns said:


> I totally agree. I own and operate a CB5036 and think it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I feed it ONLY SEASONED, DRY, WOOD, mainly oak but anything SEASONED WOOD will do nicely. I also watch the site here and try to "educate" other OWB owners to the benefits of seasoned wood. At times I think it is an uphill battle.



We bought our rural home (4000sf or so) 6 years ago, with OWB being the chief means of heating. I was stupid and ignorant and had NO idea what I was getting into. Luckily I generally enjoy it so it's not a problem. My other options are propane or electric heat, but if I had to heat with those methods only, I’d go broke. The first few years I heated I cut green wood from cord lengths and happily burned away. My delivery guy told me rather casually that seasoned wood would burn more efficiently, but I still didn’t realize all of the implications of burning green wood – inefficiency, pollutants, creosote, etc. By burning green I was adding to the overall problem that OWBs portray.

This is the first year I can start to change that – I finally was able to get an overage of wood and will be able to stockpile almost another season. Yes, this season will still be a lot of green, but I’m trying to change that and hopefully by next season I’ll be ahead enough to correct the problem. Had I known all of the details about burning green I would have made steps to be a season or two ahead a long time ago. I have just started really reading on this site and understanding the implications.


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## H-Ranch (Nov 11, 2010)

CrappieKeith said:


> Very well done Marty...most of the banning that I saw came from "cities".
> However,they do have an agenda.I just thought you guys might be interested in what's going on out there.


She claims to be a moderate that is not against all wood burning, but her actions and newletters would tell a very different story. Most of us will agree that burning construction debris, painted/treated lumber, and trash is out of bounds, but she is an extremist by any definition. In fact it appears that she's becoming more extreme. Your wood burning apparatus is next on her agenda.

From her November 2010 newsletter:
Mission Statement
Our mission is to educate public officials, government and all citizens about wood smoke as a major form of hazardous air pollution that affects our health, use of our property, water, crops, livestock, the environment and climate change. We urge citizens everywhere to press for legislative changes to call wood smoke a public nuisance under state health codes and to ban all wood burning.

From her February 2009 newsletter:
Mission Statement:
We are dedicated to achieving environmental justice. We believe that justice is accomplished by an empowered community acting to make change. We organize and advocate to protect public health and the environment threatened by toxic pollution. We support broad efforts that create a just society which fosters a healthy and sustainable quality of life.


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## Jaberwky (Nov 11, 2010)

H-Ranch said:


> She claims to be a moderate that is not against all wood burning, but her actions and newletters would tell a very different story. Most of us will agree that burning construction debris, painted/treated lumber, and trash is out of bounds, but she is an extremist by any definition. In fact it appears that she's becoming more extreme. Your wood burning apparatus is next on her agenda.
> 
> From her November 2010 newsletter:
> Mission Statement
> ...



The mountain biking community saw a very similar groundswell from anti-MTB groups in the late 80s and most of the 90s. One in particular was entitled “Wheeled Locusts” and insisted that all mountain biking was bad; that cyclists were the scourge of the environment and a menace to other trail users. The anti-MTB groups got seats on local land use boards and lobbied politicians. Eventually the wave subsided, but cyclists were forced to defend by becoming very good at offense. We in turn got on control boards, came out for huge amounts of public volunteer hours – much of which was for trail systems that did not allow bikes at the time. We said “Nature is good, trails are good, and whatever we can do to get along with others is good”. And it worked.

This anti-OWB sentiment unfortunately has the backing of a very well-known government entity in the EPA. But it is exactly the same fight as the mountain bikers faced – extremist opposition who use twisted and fabricated information, all or nothing mentalities, holding the few bad guys up as representative of the whole, etc. And of course the truth is that almost all of their anti-agenda has some root in fact and truth, but is twisted so far away from logic that it loses any credibility.


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## woodbooga (Nov 13, 2010)

logbutcher said:


> First of all Walt those "jack bags" ( whatever the F that is umpkin2 could not have been in Maine ---*"the way life should be"*.












> And definately not the land of milk and honey in New Hampshire--"love free or die"; or what we call here in Paradise call the "Dilemma State": "do you want to live or eat fries with that". Sorry WoodBooga, but that state motto has to go.



Maine will repeal its state income and sales taxes before we give up the motto. And we know that's not gonna happen. 

Live Free or Die. Death Is Not the Worst of Evils.

-Gen. John Stark on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Bennington.

No dilemma there. Not sure of the General's opinion of free love. Or Molly Stark for that matter. There is no mention pro or con in any surviving correspondence. 

Gen. Stark also fought in the French and Indian War with Rogers Rangers. I doubt he would indulge in a snack called French fries.

As for smokey fires, folks should just burn good seasoned firewood and it's a non-issue.


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## olyman (Nov 13, 2010)

xtm said:


> You need to realize that this whole issue has very little to do with smoke...
> 
> It's mostly about power and control - it's difficult to control behavior and voting tendencies of people who are self-sufficient. Certain politicians and their leftist lapdog organizations love to champion such causes - ostensibly for the overall good of the public, but actually to keep themselves in $$ and power - freon, incandescent lightbulbs, carbon credits, prohibition, etc., etc. When scholarship changes, proving the original premise incorrect, the juggernaut usually continues along the same path - ignoring the facts...
> 
> xtm


im fresh out of bullets--excellent post--one that the greenies,NEVER want you to rememeber--


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## logbutcher (Nov 13, 2010)

woodbooga said:


> Maine will repeal its state income and sales taxes before we give up the motto. And we know that's not gonna happen.
> 
> *Live Free or Die. Death Is Not the Worst of Evils.
> 
> ...



My god WB, you sure need some "french fries with that". 

It is written that Gen John and Molly had problems....serious conjugal ones. 
So one night while on one of his rare home leaves from battles, Molly refused to assume a desired _______.
It is written that she then said, "Live Free or Die ...you %#@&%". Meaning that he was to return to battle without satisfaction at home. 

And that's the truth. It is written.

Now the tax issue: you're only partly correct. Maine IS one of the more highly taxed and poor business climate states, rated just below California, N.J., N.Y. Fact. 
Butt: when we looked carefully at NET TAXATION that includes local property taxes, N.H. is only slightly behind Maine in net tax costs for property owners. Property taxation is one of the most regressive taxes. Yours in N.H. are exorbitant (sp.). Fact.
Maine has a porky bureaucracy, too many "revenue sources", a burdensome sales and lodging tax. Correct. We stihl love Paradise. Do not cross the bridge.


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## flotek (Nov 13, 2010)

the world is in the throes of a "silent crisis" that is killing 300,000 people each year.More than 300 million people are already seriously affected by the gradual warming of the earth and that number is set to double by 2030, the report from the Global Humanitarian Forum warns.

thats all i had to read to see they are complete envira-idiots and will say or makeup anything to advance their radical agenda.im just glad to have played a small role in the warming process cause lets face it ..its too dang cold on this planet and im not moving to florida .my wood furnace loaded with some finely seasoned red oak really puts out the BTU's and helps breakdown the ozone making my area become warmer so i can do my part to bring florida to me without all the tourists and high prices


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## GoRving (Nov 13, 2010)

Another thing..Moonshine made with wood-cooked mash is alot better than that cooked with gas.  Of course that's beside the point, but messing with ones heating source can trigger hostility. All I heat with is wood. I only use seasoned.


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## Labman (Nov 13, 2010)

Can I skirt the political by saying I though the election reflected many people agreeing with me that it is time for the government to butt out of many things?


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## deerlakejens (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm curious how some of you guys label Richard Nixon as a leftist? He created the EPA, didn't he? What am I missing in some of your comments? It's not right or left wingers who object to smoky fires, its people with common sense. Look where some of these bans have occurred, they are in both "red and blue" districts. I heat my house 99% with an older wood stove but my neighbors always ask where my wood goes because there is no smoke to speak of, aside from a few minutes at start up. I can't imagine why anyone who understood the advantages of seasoned wood burned hot would do anything else, so maybe we could drop a "brochure" listing the advantages at homes where we consistently see smoke. I am over a year ahead with my seasoned wood so I swapped an equal amount of my seasoned wood with a neighbor's green wood just to prove the point to him. Once he realized how much wood he saved, how much lighter it was and easier to handle and that there was no smoke, he has become a convert. I think eliminating the problem takes away a lot of the ammunition of those who don't understand how "green" wood burning can be!


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## Phil_Marino (Nov 14, 2010)

flotek said:


> the world is in the throes of a "silent crisis" that is killing 300,000 people each year.More than 300 million people are already seriously affected by the gradual warming of the earth and that number is set to double by 2030, the report from the Global Humanitarian Forum warns.
> 
> thats all i had to read to see they are complete envira-idiots and will say or makeup anything to advance their radical agenda.im just glad to have played a small role in the warming process cause lets face it ..its too dang cold on this planet and im not moving to florida .my wood furnace loaded with some finely seasoned red oak really puts out the BTU's and helps breakdown the ozone making my area become warmer so i can do my part to bring florida to me without all the tourists and high prices



Actually, by burning wood instead of fossil fuel to heat your house, you are indeed helping to slow global warming - whether or not that is part of the reason you burn wood for heat. 

I don't understand why, on this forum. it's generally considered bad to do something that helps the environment ( and the other 3 billion or so people who live here). 

Phil Marino


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## logbutcher (Nov 14, 2010)

deerlakejens said:


> I'm curious how some of you guys label Richard Nixon as a leftist? He created the EPA, didn't he? What am I missing in some of your comments? *It's not right or left wingers who object to smoky fires, its people with common sense. Look where some of these bans have occurred, they are in both "red and blue" districts. I heat my house 99% with an older wood stove but my neighbors always ask where my wood goes because there is no smoke to speak of, aside from a few minutes at start up. I can't imagine why anyone who understood the advantages of seasoned wood burned hot would do anything else, so maybe we could drop a "brochure" listing the advantages at homes where we consistently see smoke. I am over a year ahead with my seasoned wood so I swapped an equal amount of my seasoned wood with a neighbor's green wood just to prove the point to him. Once he realized how much wood he saved, how much lighter it was and easier to handle and that there was no smoke, he has become a convert. I think eliminating the problem takes away a lot of the ammunition of those who don't understand how "green" wood burning can be!*



:agree2: Excellent post....too true.

However, never underestimate the need for too many to find "causes" (A.K.A. : "solutions in search of problems" ) that will fill their empty lives.
A neighbor of a friend here is being sued for wood burning ( burning the right way ) because she is a victim of his wood smoke. Her home is oil heated, her car a clunker ( no catalyst )that she drives to demonstations and rallies against " corporate greed" and the evils of Amerika (sic), she uses scraps of plywood to "mow" since gas lawnmowers kill, and she flushes her toilet and has hot water like most, but........etc..... Beware , you bad bad wood killers out there.


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## laserboat (Dec 22, 2012)

*Read research instead of mocking and attacking people. Americans attack everything*

Smoke kills 60,000 U.S. Citizens a year; 3 million world wide. Respiratory illness is largest killer of infants. 4 People die daily in WA from Asthma attacks. Wood smoke is a major trigger. 1 in 10 children have Asthma. Infants who are exposed to wood smoke pollution early in life are 5 times more likely to be diagnosed with Asthma by age 5. Infants 17% increase in SIDS risk with wood smoke exposure. Asthma, COPD, Lung Cancer are increasing. 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer than normal lung folks are. 80% of air pollution is residential indoor/outdoor wood burning; not traffic/industry. Dioxin from smoke most toxic substance on earth. Dioxin is passed from Mothers to infants. Wood smoke triggers heart attacks. 73% of wildfires are human caused not lightening. 53% of lives, acres, strucures lost and cost to fight are from human caused fires. All wood burning aggravated/caused disease costs all of us billions in medical costs, billions in taxes to fight human caused structure/wildfires and increased home/medical insurance premiums. We all pay for this problem.

1 in 2 deaths in the USA had COPD as a cause/contributor but 1 in 2 are NOT cigarette smokers. 120,000 people die each year from COPD. 4 people die every minute. 550,000 hospitalizations per year, 16 million office visits per year, and $13 billion per year in medical costs, including home care. A 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer. A recent study shows “At least 93 per cent of those who had COPD were not tobacco smokers,”. 23% of COPD occurrs in age groups less than 40 years. It is not just an old persons disease. At least 12 million have undiagnosed COPD.
. 
More people die from air pollution then car wrecks, fires and poisoning combined.

Tobacco use is illegal in public places, yet Lung Cancer is the most prevalent, hardest to detect early and treat. It is the number one killer in the USA of all types of cancer. It is the number 2 cause of death from all diseases in the US. It kills more women then breast and cervical cancer combined. It costs billions of dollars yearly!

Wood smoke pollution particles are so small that they enter homes/schools/public buildings even with all the doors, windows, heat/ventilation closed. The level of indoor air pollution is typically equal to 70% of the outdoor pollution level. Heat/AC/ventilation exhaust systems PULL smoke in!

Wood heating is the least efficient heat source; 53% efficient in perfect labratory controlled conditions. Less efficient in the real world.

Not just short term intense exposure but also Long term exposure to low-levels of wood smoke increases the risk of all diseases.

The US Surgeon General: research shows there is no safe level of ambient wood smoke. Wood smoke is harmful to human health at all levels! 

The US EPA warns that exposure to a fraction of a nanogram of PAH increases our risk of developing cancer.

Woodsmoke contains several carcinogens, including benzene, benzo[a]pyrene, formaldehyde. Burning 1 kg of wood in a modern heater produces more benzo[a]pyrene than the smoke from 27,000 cigarettes; more benzene and formaldehyde than the smoke of 6,000 cigarettes. Outdoor burning is exponentially worse! Including wood cooking and meat smokers!!! Composting, chipping, recycling, Propane recreation, cooking, campfires and electric meat smokers solve this problem! 

Burning two cords of wood produces the same amount of mutagenic particles as: Driving 13 gasoline powered cars 10,000 miles each at 20 miles/gallon or driving 2 diesel powered cars 10,000 miles each @ 30 miles/gallon. These figures indicate that the worst contribution that an individual is likely to make to the mutagenicity of the air is using a wood stove for heating. Outdoor fires are exponentially worse! Composting, chipping, recycling, Propane recreation, cooking, campfires and electric meat smokers solve this problem! 

Free radicals produced from wood smoke are chemically active for twenty minutes; tobacco smoke free radicals are chemically active for thirty seconds. Wood smoke free radicals attack our body’s cells and stress our immune systems up to forty times longer then tobacco smoke increasing our risk of ALL diseases and infections.

Statistics show that: 764 PEOPLE (not just a number these are human lives lost) per 100,000 per year in the Puget Sound die of lung cancer. Many of them were NOT tobacco smokers.

Wood smoke can travel 700 miles and can stay near the ground up to 3 weeks. You dont need to smell smoke for it to harm health. 

Burning wood is always unnecessary. Wearing long pants, shoes, polar fleece shirts. Using electric meat smokers, propane BBQ's, adding home insulation, caulking, plastic window film, numerous other inexpensive home weatherization techniques that pay for themselves first year heating cost savings. Recycle, compost, chip, leave in less obvious location on property to decompose naturally (just a few weeks in our climate the pile size decreases dramatically.) Use the compost and wood chips instead of spending hundreds/thousands on bark, mulch,peat-moss, topsoil, weed poison every year. Propane Campfires, fire pits, fire bowls, chimineas, outdoor and indoor fireplaces can all make smores without killing people with wood smoke.

EHHI :: The Health Effects of Wood Smoke
Welcome to "Take Back The Air"
http://woodburnersmoke.net/
Wood Smoke Fact Sheets
Wood Smoke Myths and Facts
Moms Clean Air Force | Fighting for Our Kids' Health
Wood Smoke Health


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## laserboat (Dec 22, 2012)

*American way attack and mock before read reasearch and death rates and cause of death*

Smoke kills 60,000 U.S. Citizens a year; 3 million world wide. Respiratory illness is largest killer of infants. 4 People die daily in WA from Asthma attacks. Wood smoke is a major trigger. 1 in 10 children have Asthma. Infants who are exposed to wood smoke pollution early in life are 5 times more likely to be diagnosed with Asthma by age 5. Infants 17% increase in SIDS risk with wood smoke exposure. Asthma, COPD, Lung Cancer are increasing. 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer than normal lung folks are. 80% of air pollution is residential indoor/outdoor wood burning; not traffic/industry. Dioxin from smoke most toxic substance on earth. Dioxin is passed from Mothers to infants. Wood smoke triggers heart attacks. 73% of wildfires are human caused not lightening. 53% of lives, acres, strucures lost and cost to fight are from human caused fires. All wood burning aggravated/caused disease costs all of us billions in medical costs, billions in taxes to fight human caused structure/wildfires and increased home/medical insurance premiums. We all pay for this problem.

1 in 2 deaths in the USA had COPD as a cause/contributor but 1 in 2 are NOT cigarette smokers. 120,000 people die each year from COPD. 4 people die every minute. 550,000 hospitalizations per year, 16 million office visits per year, and $13 billion per year in medical costs, including home care. A 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer. A recent study shows “At least 93 per cent of those who had COPD were not tobacco smokers,”. 23% of COPD occurrs in age groups less than 40 years. It is not just an old persons disease. At least 12 million have undiagnosed COPD.
. 
More people die from air pollution then car wrecks, fires and poisoning combined.

Tobacco use is illegal in public places, yet Lung Cancer is the most prevalent, hardest to detect early and treat. It is the number one killer in the USA of all types of cancer. It is the number 2 cause of death from all diseases in the US. It kills more women then breast and cervical cancer combined. It costs billions of dollars yearly!

Wood smoke pollution particles are so small that they enter homes/schools/public buildings even with all the doors, windows, heat/ventilation closed. The level of indoor air pollution is typically equal to 70% of the outdoor pollution level. Heat/AC/ventilation exhaust systems PULL smoke in!

Wood heating is the least efficient heat source; 53% efficient in perfect labratory controlled conditions. Less efficient in the real world.

Not just short term intense exposure but also Long term exposure to low-levels of wood smoke increases the risk of all diseases.

The US Surgeon General: research shows there is no safe level of ambient wood smoke. Wood smoke is harmful to human health at all levels! 

The US EPA warns that exposure to a fraction of a nanogram of PAH increases our risk of developing cancer.

Woodsmoke contains several carcinogens, including benzene, benzo[a]pyrene, formaldehyde. Burning 1 kg of wood in a modern heater produces more benzo[a]pyrene than the smoke from 27,000 cigarettes; more benzene and formaldehyde than the smoke of 6,000 cigarettes. Outdoor burning is exponentially worse! Including wood cooking and meat smokers!!! Composting, chipping, recycling, Propane recreation, cooking, campfires and electric meat smokers solve this problem! 

Burning two cords of wood produces the same amount of mutagenic particles as: Driving 13 gasoline powered cars 10,000 miles each at 20 miles/gallon or driving 2 diesel powered cars 10,000 miles each @ 30 miles/gallon. These figures indicate that the worst contribution that an individual is likely to make to the mutagenicity of the air is using a wood stove for heating. Outdoor fires are exponentially worse! Composting, chipping, recycling, Propane recreation, cooking, campfires and electric meat smokers solve this problem! 

Free radicals produced from wood smoke are chemically active for twenty minutes; tobacco smoke free radicals are chemically active for thirty seconds. Wood smoke free radicals attack our body’s cells and stress our immune systems up to forty times longer then tobacco smoke increasing our risk of ALL diseases and infections.

Statistics show that: 764 PEOPLE (not just a number these are human lives lost) per 100,000 per year in the Puget Sound die of lung cancer. Many of them were NOT tobacco smokers.

Wood smoke can travel 700 miles and can stay near the ground up to 3 weeks. You dont need to smell smoke for it to harm health. 

Burning wood is always unnecessary. Wearing long pants, shoes, polar fleece shirts. Using electric meat smokers, propane BBQ's, adding home insulation, caulking, plastic window film, numerous other inexpensive home weatherization techniques that pay for themselves first year heating cost savings. Recycle, compost, chip, leave in less obvious location on property to decompose naturally (just a few weeks in our climate the pile size decreases dramatically.) Use the compost and wood chips instead of spending hundreds/thousands on bark, mulch,peat-moss, topsoil, weed poison every year. Propane Campfires, fire pits, fire 

EHHI :: The Health Effects of Wood Smoke
Welcome to "Take Back The Air"
http://woodburnersmoke.net/
Wood Smoke Fact Sheets
Wood Smoke Myths and Facts
Moms Clean Air Force | Fighting for Our Kids' Health
Wood Smoke Health


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## Ayatollah (Dec 22, 2012)

laserboat said:


> Smoke kills 60,000 U.S. Citizens a year; 3 million world wide. Respiratory illness is largest killer of infants. 4 People die daily in WA from Asthma attacks. Wood smoke is a major trigger. 1 in 10 children have Asthma. Infants who are exposed to wood smoke pollution early in life are 5 times more likely to be diagnosed with Asthma by age 5. Infants 17% increase in SIDS risk with wood smoke exposure. Asthma, COPD, Lung Cancer are increasing. 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer than normal lung folks are. 80% of air pollution is residential indoor/outdoor wood burning; not traffic/industry. Dioxin from smoke most toxic substance on earth. Dioxin is passed from Mothers to infants. Wood smoke triggers heart attacks. 73% of wildfires are human caused not lightening. 53% of lives, acres, strucures lost and cost to fight are from human caused fires. All wood burning aggravated/caused disease costs all of us billions in medical costs, billions in taxes to fight human caused structure/wildfires and increased home/medical insurance premiums. We all pay for this problem.
> 
> 1 in 2 deaths in the USA had COPD as a cause/contributor but 1 in 2 are NOT cigarette smokers. 120,000 people die each year from COPD. 4 people die every minute. 550,000 hospitalizations per year, 16 million office visits per year, and $13 billion per year in medical costs, including home care. A 20-year study found that COPD patients are five times more likely to develop lung cancer. A recent study shows “At least 93 per cent of those who had COPD were not tobacco smokers,”. 23% of COPD occurrs in age groups less than 40 years. It is not just an old persons disease. At least 12 million have undiagnosed COPD.
> .
> ...



I'd rather die from the continued exposure to wood smoke than be strangled to death by government regulation. I almost choked to death on all those ...ahem...cough, cough...facts. That can't be too healthy for my stress problem


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## flyboy553 (Dec 22, 2012)

People throw out "statistics" all the time. However, we don't know who made them up. A person who is against any one thing can twist facts to make up "statistics" that favor their point of view. Before I believe ANY statistic, I want to know who funded the study and where their dog is in the fight.

Posts like the one above full of negativity get NEGATIVE REP from me. And I must say, I enjoyed doing it! And will do it again if need be!

Ted


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## Hddnis (Dec 22, 2012)

More pollution in those two posts than my woodstove makes in a decade of burning wood.:bringit:




Mr. HE


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## Ductape (Dec 22, 2012)

Another troll....... bringing up a two yr old thread to spew garbage. :bang: :bang:


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## smokee (Dec 22, 2012)

I just checked, I'm only 3.6gph.  just threw a couple splits on to celebrate. Lmfao


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## Hddnis (Dec 22, 2012)

The funny thing is that site has a lot of "facts" many of which are true, but are taken out of context and twisted to mean something they don't.

It is like saying that at some point every driver has run a red light, so that means anyone you meet that drives a car is a red light runner. You take a fact and use it to argue for a position that is wrong.

I bet their panties twist themselves into a screw and cause them slight discomfort everytime there is a forest fire.:hmm3grin2orange:



Mr. HE


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## stihly dan (Dec 22, 2012)

Anyone that say's burning wood is more dangerous than burning oil should be neg repped to death, then thrown off the site. What a loser.


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## smokee (Dec 22, 2012)

I went through the power point presentation, it looks like the neighbor's burning junk. 

I get smoke when I toss wood in but once I'm up to temp it very clean. I bought my wood this year as I just installed the insert and its pretty crappy wood. I can't see how anyone would complain next year when I'm burning all cherry. 

I can't see how this would get any where in Pennsy. We some wood burn'n people. Love our guns and hunting too!


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## Mac88 (Dec 22, 2012)

What's that old saying? Figures lie, liar's figure. NegRep sent. Oh, and I threw a couple more splits on the fire myself.


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## flotek (Dec 22, 2012)

A classic case where you can have all the facts but come to the wrong conclusion 
By skewing things to prove your position .radon ,poisonous building materials ,and second smoke could just as easily Caused increases in cancer and copd in this so called study .when practiced correctly 
And responsibly wood burning is safe and efficient way of heating your home and provides good cardio exercise to its users by the labor involved .tell 
These so called health stats to those 80-90 year old farmers and country folk who have been around wood stoves Their whole life .i guess it's healthier to sit your lard butt on your couch and burn thick dirty fuel oil consuming Hundreds of gallons per season 
...Makes a lot of sense right .does this sissy la la ignoramus realize we are burning wood In a steel box and not standing directly over the fire inhaling the smoke,you'd think we'd be dropping off like flies according to this poor fool


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## Fifelaker (Dec 23, 2012)

Hddnis said:


> .
> 
> I bet their panties twist themselves into a screw and cause them slight discomfort everytime there is a forest fire.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> ...



Only the ones started by man, the ones started by lightning are natural and therefore not as harmful


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## KiwiBro (Dec 23, 2012)

woodguy105 said:


> Check out the forum and go to smoke stories and click on the technology helps smog...info about something called FlueCube Chimney Cowl & Smarter Wood Heating


It works.
It's also been the centre of a number of good ole' mud-slinging fights over the last few years. Espionage and skulduggery have never been too far away from those guys.


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## Fifelaker (Dec 23, 2012)

His sunburn just got alittle worse!


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## Mac88 (Dec 23, 2012)

Fifelaker said:


> His sunburn just got alittle worse!



You suppose he's noticed the UNWELCOME sign yet?


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## Fifelaker (Dec 23, 2012)

Mac88 said:


> You suppose he's noticed the UNWELCOME sign yet?



Nope it's not written on an anti woodburning site.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 23, 2012)

Mac88 said:


> You suppose he's noticed the UNWELCOME sign yet?



He should be well on his way to maxed out on neg rep. I also reported him, cut and paste of stuff found elsewhere, in this case commentary to articles in the Kitsap (county in WA) Sun. That's spam in my book, dunno what the mods view will be.

If laserboat would like to have a civil debate using his own words, I'm more than willing to take the opposing view. If he's just gonna spam his anti-smoke agenda, he can take a flying leap.


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## deepsouth (Dec 23, 2012)

Write it in a scientific manner, referencing every statement / assertion / fact? With a specific URL or publication to a recognized academic standard. 

Not just a few websites at the end. And aim for credible institutions or studies. 

No matter what the source of your heat there is a downside. 

Where I live in Tasmania, practically all our electricity is Hydro power. There is a natural gas plant for backup for very high load or drought or other outages and also a underwater cable to mainland Australia (Victoria) which can run one way at a given time to either export hydro power or import dirty brown coal power.....

But even hydro power means dams have to be built and land flooded. And the green idiots say no to that as well.


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## Bocephous (Dec 23, 2012)

smokee said:


> I can't see how this would get any where in Pennsy. We some wood burn'n people. Love our guns and hunting too!



Look how our state voted a month and a half ago. There are a lot of sheeple in the metro areas (and a surprising amount in the sticks), if the results were actually accurate. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best.


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## mountainmandan (Dec 23, 2012)

I just want to say that beware of when someone says that factor X causes cancer or another disease. We cannot isolate variables in humans to study cause and effects of disease processes. Can you take an over 50's gentleman and say his colon cancer was caused by lack of fiber, or food additives, or maybe toxic hydrocarbons? Of course not, we do not know and he will have had too many variables for us to look at.

More people are sick today because more people get diagnosed with diseases that get charted on electronic health records. It does not mean they did not have the disease before, it means it is easy for researchers to access health records. You will be seeing many diseases that are "on the rise" due to easier data mining as more hospitals convert to EHR's. 

Everyone of you has cancer right now. Your body is quietly dealing with it through your immune system. If you live long enough that something else does not kill you you will die of cancer. If we manage chronic diseases like heart disease and diabetes effectively, these people will die of something else.

More people are sick today because the population in America and Canada is aging, and if you live long enough you will have a slew of chronic diseases. Does this mean you live in a dirty polluted environment, no. It means you lived long enough to get all of the chronic diseases. 

I could go on.

Dan


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## sb47 (Dec 23, 2012)

The guy that lives behind me call the EPA on me for installing a wood stove in my house and clamed that the smoke from the chimney was getting in his house.
He comes rite out and told me and the EPA inspector that he had a problem with his attic and there was a hole where the smoke was getting in.
I looked at the inspector and then told the guy that it sounded like he needed to fix his problem and not crate another.
The inspector didn’t even want to come in my house because having a wood stove is not against the law.
I invited him in so he could look at it, and he refused.

My wood stove is a new EPA rated model and only at start up do you see any smoke coming form the stack. I also live in a very flat area with plenty of wind to blow any smoke away. 
I only burn seasoned wood.

This guy calls the EPA on me every time I strike a match, and I’m amassing evidence for a law suite in the future with him.
I live in a rural area where people move to so they can enjoy the country life.
He moved in next to me and started complaining about my horses and anything else that he doesn’t approve of.
He is one of those Holly Rollers, and tries to use God as his defense. 

He moved out to the country and is trying to dictate what us, real country folks do as a way of life.

After 20 years of dealing with this fool, I’m still burning my wood stove and cooking in my BBQ pit. Yes he called the EPA about my BBQ pit as well.
And my horses are still in the pasture next to his house.

I will not stand for a dumb ass moving next door in the country to enjoy the country life and then complain about it.

The so the battle continues!


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## smokee (Dec 23, 2012)

I cannot believe that after reading this thread and sharing it with a local friend that my neighbor just made a comment about my smoke after I just tossed in a couple splits. She's a PITA and ill bet its not the last I hear about it. Unbelievable!


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## trophyhunter (Dec 23, 2012)

Smokee, just wait till the power goes out for a few days in the dead of winter's icy cold and see if she's got her face pressed to the window wanting in where it's warm. 

Just point at the stove and yell out "Sorry -smoke."


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## smokee (Dec 23, 2012)

trophyhunter said:


> Smokee, just wait till the power goes out for a few days in the dead of winter's icy cold and see if she's got her face pressed to the window wanting in where it's warm.
> 
> Just point at the stove and yell out "Sorry -smoke."



Good one, T.H.! Rofl.


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## Mac88 (Dec 23, 2012)

Buy acreage. Lots and lots of acreage. Folk move to the country to get away from the city people. Then they try to force the country people to become like city people. Buy acreage, lots and lots and lots of acreage.


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## sb47 (Dec 23, 2012)

Here is one for ya.
The same guy as I mentioned before.
His property is next to mine and I had an old barbwire fence that had a bunch of junk tallow trees growing along and through the fence line. 
After ha had called the EPA on me many times for my BBQ and my wood stove, he had the nerve to ask me if he could put up a new fence. But he wanted to put the new fence on my side of the trees that were growing on the line and take up ¾ feet of my property. Some nerve rite!

I said hell no, you can put the fence on your side or you can cut the trees down and put the fence on the actual property line where it belongs. 
He agreed, and soon he started cutting and removing not just the trees but he dug up the stumps too.
Trying to be a good guy and all I offered to let him pile some of the wood up on my property because he had already had a huge pile on his side.
I told him I was going to burn the pile and if he didn’t like that then he could haul off the wood and not pile it over here.
He said he was going to burn his pile so it wouldn’t be a problem.

Three months later I light the pile and let it burn. Yep you guessed it. He called the EPA.lol

The EPA inspector came out and did his inspection and determined I was not doing anything wrong or illegal and it wasn’t a problem.
I explained why I had the big pile of wood and where it came from.
The guy (Jimmy) still had his pile yet to burn and he told the EPA guy he planed to burn his at a later date. 
Jimmy had pilled a bunch of cross ties and PVC pipe in his pile along with a few tires.

The inspector told me he was going over to write him up because of the stuff he had in his pile.

I don’t know if he actually wrote him up with a fine because he hadn’t actually burned his pile yet. So I don’t know if he could do that because of intent, but he stayed over there for at least an hour.

Jimmy has not called them on me since. So maybe a little reality check was in order.

I told Jimmy if he called them one more time I was going to file an harassment suit on him.
Yes, he has called the EPA by my count (I keep track) 56 times in the last 5 years.

56 times the EPA has been out here because of Jimmies complaints and not one time has the EPA sided with him. He even tried calling the fire department a few times. it didn't work, they came out and looked at my fire and said to enjoy myself and not worry about Jimmy.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 23, 2012)

It seems like the more people there are, the more likely there is to be a group opposed to any given thing.

Jimmy sounds like "a treat". 

People suck.


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## KiwiBro (Dec 23, 2012)

sb47 said:


> Here is one for ya.
> 
> 
> 56 times the EPA has been out here because of Jimmies complaints and not one time has the EPA sided with him. He even tried calling the fire department a few times. it didn't work, they came out and looked at my fire and said to enjoy myself and not worry about Jimmy.


Holey smoke. At the rate the crazies are coming to the country, at some point, country people will be moving TO the big cities to 'get away from it all'.


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## Mac88 (Dec 23, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Holey smoke. At the rate the crazies are coming to the country, at some point, country people will be moving TO the big cities to 'get away from it all'.



Not likely. Too much crime. :msp_angry:
It's coming our way. Our next (and hopefully final) move will include no neighbors with 1/4 mile in any direction.


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## zogger (Dec 23, 2012)

sb47 said:


> Here is one for ya.
> The same guy as I mentioned before.
> His property is next to mine and I had an old barbwire fence that had a bunch of junk tallow trees growing along and through the fence line.
> After ha had called the EPA on me many times for my BBQ and my wood stove, he had the nerve to ask me if he could put up a new fence. But he wanted to put the new fence on my side of the trees that were growing on the line and take up ¾ feet of my property. Some nerve rite!
> ...



FIFTY SIX TIMES and they didnt smell a rat???? 

Yep, you are way past some sort of actionable area I think. Well, maybe, I dont know, but geez loweez.


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## Fred Wright (Dec 23, 2012)

Well... I can understand allergies to wood smoke and its effect on asthma. One of my sisters (got stuck with two of 'em) is severly asthmatic. A fella I worked with for years was allergic to wood smoke, coke gas from the old foundy in town, plug-in air fresheners, other things. It happens.

But neither is or was wingnut-minded. :dunno:

What I don't understand is how people like the ones mentioned in the OP link can expect to be taken seriously when their arguments are so one-sided.

Folks, I don't like a lot of rules any more than the next guy. We live in Amish country... nobody out here needs rules. We respect each other.

Am gonna guess that most municipalities already have environmental pollution regs. If some bonehead is burning tires or his OWB is smoking up the neighborhood, deal with him. Don't go on a crusade to regulate the rest of us.

And for Chrissakes, don't manipulate science to further an agenda.


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## Ayatollah (Dec 23, 2012)

Mac88 said:


> Not likely. Too much crime. :msp_angry:
> It's coming our way. Our next (and hopefully final) move will include no neighbors with 1/4 mile in any direction.



I remember when we were touring Alaska in our trailer about 13 years ago, and meeting this one guy originally from New York, while we were getting some tire work done in the middle of nowhere. He said he traded his property in NY to the US Military for some cash and a big piece of property in AK. He said, "if you can see my house, you're trespassing"


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## sb47 (Dec 23, 2012)

She smokes a little but she runs good!lol
Lets put that smoke to some good use.

Wood Gas Truck: Road Power From Wood Gasification - Green Transportation - MOTHER EARTH NEWS


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## Mac88 (Dec 23, 2012)

sb47 said:


> She smokes a little but she runs good!lol
> Lets put that smoke to some good use.
> 
> Wood Gas Truck: Road Power From Wood Gasification - Green Transportation - MOTHER EARTH NEWS



FEMA has a good how-to (pdf) on a practical gasifyer system. I don't have the link handy but you can find it by Googling "gasifyer". I think you could run a home generator with one if you could maintain constant engine rpms.


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## Hddnis (Dec 24, 2012)

My dream is to one day have a gasifier that runs a motor that turns a generator to power my place, the excess heat will heat the buildings in winter. In the summer the excess heat will just heat hot water and run a cooler.

The only rub is making it as maintenance free and automated as possible, because I don't want to spend a huge chunk of time babysitting it. It can be done, but I've got other projects that are in line ahead of it. Can't wait to be rid of this over priced joke of a power "co-op".




Mr. HE


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## smokee (Dec 24, 2012)

I have a new EPA insert and have been paying attention since my neighbor said something to me yesterday about the smoke and, other than the first couple minutes after I add wood, there's nothing visible coming out of the chimney. It always has a strong secondary burn coming from the secondary air tubes and I usually run it hot. I don't burn garbage either... Nice oak, cherry, hickory only.

She can stick it, I won't stop burning till they pry my maul from my cold, dead hand. :msp_angry:


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## half (Dec 24, 2012)

*wood burning*

People who complain about burning wood are justified in some cases, there is always the knobhead who burns wet wood and rubbish in their fire..
But really most people who are regular wood burners, for heat or water, are responsible and know that wet wood wont burn ect.

My thought is, these moaners, they must have an agenda to increase their community standing/wealth.And they are really good at bending the facts to suit the agenda. I bet they own power company shares or want to get on local government , or work in the LPG industry. people dont do protests and lobbying for nothing,it takes time and energy, there is always a reason, and I bet most times its not for the greater good, its personal gain. See how many people in public office started in the picket line over something. Scratch the surface and there is a photo in the local paper of a protester10 yrs ago


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## Mac88 (Dec 24, 2012)

Hddnis said:


> My dream is to one day have a gasifier that runs a motor that turns a generator to power my place, the excess heat will heat the buildings in winter. In the summer the excess heat will just heat hot water and run a cooler.
> 
> The only rub is making it as maintenance free and automated as possible, because I don't want to spend a huge chunk of time babysitting it. It can be done, but I've got other projects that are in line ahead of it. Can't wait to be rid of this over priced joke of a power "co-op".
> 
> Mr. HE



I like where you're going with this idea.


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 24, 2012)

I didn't read all of the posts here, but has anyone mentioned that burning wood for heat and hot water reduces net carbon input to the atmosphere over using oil, coal, tar sands oil, etc.? 

Wood is in the short lived carbon pool, in that in most of NA, a tree 'cycles" in less than a few hundred years from seedling to tree to relatively short-lived wood products, rapidly decaying parts, or firewood. 

Plus, by thinning forests and reducing fuel load, the chance of wildfire is reduced, which benefits no one (except the wildland firefighters) while producing useful products. Converting un-merchantable trees and slash to liquid fuels is the next step, almost ready to go. 

In spite of all this, if there is a temperature inversion in a mountain valley and a lot of people heat with wood (and may not have very efficient stoves or nice dry wood), bad air pollution is produced. Wood smoke IS bad for you --- ask any third worlder who has an open fire in their house for heat and cooking and a hole in the roof to vent the smoke.


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## allstihl (Dec 25, 2012)

i guess im lucky. my nearest neighbor is a 1/4 mi away.most out this way burn wood and 3 sell alot. besides burning wood most around here have another thing in commenView attachment 269534


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## Bocephous (Dec 25, 2012)

allstihl said:


> i guess im lucky. my nearest neighbor is a 1/4 mi away.most out this way burn wood and 3 sell alot. besides burning wood most around here have another thing in commenView attachment 269534



I'd advise friends to keep pics of such stuff off the internet lest people such as Feinstein and her ilk show too much interest in what their employers own.


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## Mac88 (Dec 25, 2012)

Bocephous said:


> I'd advise friends to keep pics of such stuff off the internet lest people such as Feinstein and her ilk show too much interest in what their employers own.



Seriously. There are lots of people (I wouldn't call them folks) around that would like very much to take that away from you. I personally thing every family needs at least one fully automatic rifle in their gun cabinet.


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## benp (Dec 25, 2012)

Mac88 said:


> Seriously. There are lots of people (I wouldn't call them folks) around that would like very much to take that away from you. I personally thing every family needs at least one *fully automatic rifle* in their gun cabinet.



Good God, I wish. 

Between the $$$$$$$$$ for a full auto and the hoops to jump through for a Class 3 weapon, majority of folks will never get to experience one. 

Semi Auto without the fun switch is as about as close as it gets.

ETA - Funny story about the fun switch. 

Years ago, my dad came here for a visit and in casual conversation he asked to see my AR. 

So, I went to the safe got it, cleared it, and handed it to him. 

I turned around and went to the fridge and I could hear him checking it out. 

The next thing he says is "There's something wrong, your selector only has 2 positions, it's broke. Where's "##### Yeah" at?"

The last time my Dad handled an AR platform was 1969 and it was an M16. 

I then proceeded to discuss with him Class 3 NFA weapons and what's required to legally own and possess them. 

His reply to all of this...."Well, that sucks."


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## TreeGuyHR (Dec 25, 2012)

benp said:


> Good God, I wish.
> 
> Between the $$$$$$$$$ for a full auto and the hoops to jump through for a Class 3 weapon, majority of folks will never get to experience one.
> 
> ...



There is something about dads that have been in the service -- after 911, my dad patrolled the yard with a shotgun (loaded with 5 rounds, one in the chamber), flash light taped to the barrel, for a couple days (at age 73).


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 25, 2012)

Ben, the "fun" setting was just that when I was in the Army. For real serious full auto fun, I'll take an M2 though. As long as I'm wishing, I'll take an M925 5 ton with a ring mount to carry that thing around. Been pondering getting an AR just for nostalgia's sake, but looks like that won't happen any time soon now.







Of course, the old man raised me to hit what you're aiming at the first time, he was a child of the Depression and hated wasting bullets. I still prefer a gun that shoots straight to one that shoots a lot, probably why I only have one auto pistol, and that's a .22.


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## Mac88 (Dec 25, 2012)

This would do. For cutting firewood, you understand. Just to keep it "topic-related". 

Barrett M107


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## sb47 (Dec 25, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Ben, the "fun" setting was just that when I was in the Army. For real serious full auto fun, I'll take an M2 though. As long as I'm wishing, I'll take an M925 5 ton with a ring mount to carry that thing around. Been pondering getting an AR just for nostalgia's sake, but looks like that won't happen any time soon now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely “no one” needs an assault weapon for hunting. And most of the lookalike semi autos out there are nothing more then the semi auto guns that have been out there for decades. They just look like AK’s.

The people against guns want all semi autos band as assault weapons.
The last time there was a vote on an assault weapons ban, it included “all” semi auto guns period. 
Anything that holds more the one bullet would be considered an assault weapon.

But guns are for more then just hunting. They are also for personal protection and for defending your home and family.
Because the type of people that would be likely to attack me in my home may be using assault weapon to do so, therefore I need the equivalent in order to fend them off.

It would be very hard to defend your home when the attackers are armed with semi auto weapons and you as a legal citizen with a single shot rifle. 
The criminals will always use illegal weapons, there criminals, so they don’t care about the law.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 25, 2012)

sb47 said:


> The people against guns want all semi autos band as assault weapons.
> The last time there was a vote on an assault weapons ban, it included “all” semi auto guns period.
> Anything that holds more the one bullet would be considered an assault weapon.



There's no such thing as an "assault" rifle in this house. If I have to use it, it'll be more than a couple steps above assault.


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## tld400 (Dec 27, 2012)

I just read this whole thread and it made me sick. Most people don't have a problem with things that other people do until it affects them personally or someone they know. Then look out they are all for banning it. Dam near everything in this world might harm someone in one way or another but that doesnt mean we get the government to ban it. And when some people act stupid and do stupid things doesn't mean we need another law to stop it. These people that want to ban wood burning are just out of their mind and they dont realize or just don't care that alot of people don't have the money to heat other ways and are willing to do some grunt work to heat their house. I cant afford any other way to make my home warm for my family other than to cut and burn wood in the proper manor. And because of sites like this that will help educate people who are new to wood burning to do it properly. These people need to get their head out of their ass and check out facts on both sides of the problem before they just swing one way and bash things. I bet for every person who is against wood burning is doing something in their life that I or anyone else could complain about if we wanted to be complaining idiots. Just loaded up my stove and felt good about doing it too. We can't let people like this push us around. And thanks again for this great site.


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## stihly dan (Dec 29, 2012)

So in Spokane, the smoke doesn't leave? So why would the toxic fumes of oil being burnt rise out. If I where to stick my head over a chimney and take a big hit of flue gas, it would be a wood one, not oil. oil will knock you on your a$$ immediately.


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## benp (Dec 29, 2012)

Mac88 said:


> I got him for ya, Stihly.




Me too.


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## Gologit (Dec 29, 2012)

I just went through this thread and deleted anything that mentioned guns...for or against. The topic here is burning wood...not firearms.

There are several firearm threads in Off Topic where you people can snarl at each other. Use them. Please.


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## Ayatollah (Dec 29, 2012)

slowp said:


> And just like guns, smoke is not always equal. Folks who live in populated valleys out here have to have dreaded guvmint regulations because they did not have enought self discipline or thoughtfulness to not burn when inversions were happening. That would be Wenatchee, Spokane, Yakima, Omak, etc. all valley towns, all have inversions every winter. I doubt if you flatlanders have such events. An inversion happens when cold air is trapped in the valleys, there is no air circulation so the smoke builds up and keeps building up until some kind of a front moves through and clears things out. They occur mainly on the colder, east side of our mountains and can go on for weeks. Climb or drive up high enough and you'll get above them and you can see the smog and fog below. It is why I didn't care to settle on the east side of the Cascades. Yeah, it is dry but winter can be very gray and depressing. I'd rather have the woodsy green vegetation and cleaner fog.
> 
> Common sense is scarce these days. We, or maybe just you, seem to live in all or nothing times. I believe in compromise.



I would agree with the necessity of air quality management IF it weren't being used as a tool for other desires at the same time, and the latter wasn't the primary force driving it. There are always many discrepancies in the air board's reasonings, and they aren't elected reps either. If the problem of foolish and haphazard burns was at the core of the restrictions, then education should be the air boards primary tool. But noooo. It's used to restrict. Less burning overall, instead of less careless burns. The real goal for them is to halt all the burning so they can use that air quality savings to offset the developer's and industries desires for expansion in the area.
I weote this here somewhere before, but again, the air board offers a rebate to upgrade your openhearth to an EPA approved unit. the catch is though, if you take the rebate, you must also agree not to burn on the days that only EPA units are allowed to burn. See how impure they are? They want to make sure you burn less days, not so much burn cleanly.


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## Gologit (Dec 29, 2012)

Ayatollah said:


> I would agree with the necessity of air quality management IF it weren't being used as a tool for other desires at the same time, and the latter wasn't the primary force driving it. There are always many discrepancies in the air board's reasonings, and they aren't elected reps either. If the problem of foolish and haphazard burns was at the core of the restrictions, then education should be the air boards primary tool. But noooo. It's used to restrict. Less burning overall, instead of less careless burns. The real goal for them is to halt all the burning so they can use that air quality savings to offset the developer's and industries desires for expansion in the area.
> I weote this here somewhere before, but again, the air board offers a rebate to upgrade your openhearth to an EPA approved unit. the catch is though, if you take the rebate, you must also agree not to burn on the days that only EPA units are allowed to burn. See how impure they are? They want to make sure you burn less days, not so much burn cleanly.



Would you like to go back to the days when I could burn my rice stubble any time I wanted? If you can burn your fireplace or stove without regard for your neighbors shouldn't I, and others like me, be allowed to blanket your entire city with smoke from agricultural burning?


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## Mac88 (Dec 29, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Would you like to go back to the days when I could burn my rice stubble any time I wanted? If you can burn your fireplace or stove without regard for your neighbors shouldn't I, and others like me, be allowed to blanket your entire city with smoke from agricultural burning?



That still goes on in a lot of places (outside California). I used to live in a paper mill town. When I commented on the smell to a local, he inhaled deeply through his nose and said "Yep, smells like money to me". I guess it all depends on your perspective.


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