# Illegal loggers at the sawmill. Just curious how they are getting away with it



## matthew sparks (Jul 9, 2014)

As many of you know I have been working hard as a green feller. It has been about to kill me, but I love it at the same time. 

Today at lunch time we all went into town to eat. I rode in a logging truck with one of the guys. I just wanted to see what the sawmill was like we were using and why it always took him so long to get back once he dropped off a load. 

Well when we arrived there were several farm trucks pulling gooseneck trailers waiting to be unloaded. They were under 26k but they didn't even have DOT numbers. I thought maybe they didn't have to have a CDL in Kentucky since they are pulling small loads but how are they getting away with not even having DOT numbers?

Just curious. I don't want to just cut down trees the rest of my life. I want to make the money of running a logging company and just wonder how the heck these guys are getting away with this day in day out when the guy I work for gets pulled over if one little light is even shorting out and flashing.


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 9, 2014)

Not sure about KY laws, but in KS for example, if the trucks/trailers are farm tagged and they're hauling off of their ground (in-state) they don't need DOT#'s (under 26K). That's how I get around it, legally. If it was a for-profit business, they'd likely be S.O.L.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 9, 2014)

Well these aren't people hauling off of their own property. I figured they would get busted and pulled over a lot. I kind of assumed what you said but thought there must be more to it than that.


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## blumtn969 (Jul 9, 2014)

Here in Oregon I see a lot of 80 thousand big rigs using farm plates. It only makes sense for the guy who needs to haul some stuff but doesn't want to pay the quarterly license fee.


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## Red Elm (Jul 9, 2014)

Just a friendly word of advice, concentrate on becoming a top notch faller/cutter, keep your mouth shut and your ears open and you'll get your answers in time. Guys that are running around asking those kinda questions around sawmills and logging crews arent usually received well. Your questions my be well intended, but loggers are suspicious by nature. Don't give them a reason to be.


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## Homelite410 (Jul 9, 2014)

According to the laws here we can haul farm to market un processed farm goods on a farm plate. We CAN'T haul processed goods (sbm, ddg, etc) even tho its farm use from market to farm..

I am talking semi here.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 10, 2014)

Its been my understanding that under 26k you don't need a dot number, I've been told that with a trailer it drops to 16k? not sure if this is true or not and I should probably do some research on this for my own good, that being said every state has its own laws.

I still have to pay tonnage on my dump truck which is rated at 26k but never had a dot number.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses. I just started out as a feller but I want to take on my own jobs as low impact logging in the near future. I can't dodge flying limbs forever without reaping the rewards of a great market. Everytime I pass a truckload of White Oaks standing on a farmers property on my way to fell trees for 5.00 each I want to go cut that guys trees down and get 50% instead of 50.00......

As soon as I learn how to properly grade trees I will have to make a cut or two on my own.....


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## northmanlogging (Jul 10, 2014)

there is a little more to it then just putting them on the ground... I'm sure your aware of that...

The timber market is notoriously finicky, prices are good right now, but next week the the queen of south didymanjaro may have a bad case of gout that could set of a chain reaction depressing the economy of... wherever... thereby screwing us on what we get paid at the mill... its an eggs and basket thing I'll never really understand...

Anyway I'm a little tired right now, but keep asking questions, never learn if you don't ask, loggers are paranoid, but most it seems truly want to see a guy succeed, as long as your not in direct competition... besides if your asking questions it means your thinking, just remember to listen to the answers.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

I know I have a lot to learn. Before I cut down my first tree for the company I am working for now I told them I wanted to start my own. I just don't know how to grade and not get ripped off by sawmills. I wouldn't know what logs are not stave logs and are in certain situations. A sawmill could talk me out of premium logs at a railroad tie price until I learn a LOT more. As far as getting contracts I can get them where I live. I still live in a community where everyone knows everyone and I am fortunate enough to have a good name with all the people in the entire county. I was playing poker with a guy the other night that was saying he wished he could get all his cyprus cut in the swamps he bought. I drove by there and saw stumps to big for any of my bars to go all the way through. 

Too bad I know nothing about cyprus. Biggest trees I ever saw in this area in my life.....


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## hammerlogging (Jul 10, 2014)

take 2 log buyers out individually there and ask them for a straight through price on all of it, then ask someone with some more experience if its a competitive number


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

Thanks hammerlogging. I have just now learned a lot of the log buyers will buy on site and not just at the mills. I have so much to learn


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## hammerlogging (Jul 10, 2014)

that would be a delivered price you'd be looking for


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

I just need to go cut logs and stack them up and find out what they will give me I guess. I will either make money or learn from my mistakes haha


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## northmanlogging (Jul 11, 2014)

Its better to have some clue as to lengths, diameters and species before you start cutting. So don't be shy about calling the mills and asking what they accept and what they prefer, seems most have caught on to e-mails now, I get a flurry of e-mails with just log prices and preferred lengths, one outfit even sends out little cheat cards with a list of accepted lengths, preferred lengths with trim lengths allready calculated for ya, of course they are still sitting on the desk next to the puter, so lets hope my memory is still working properly...


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Thanks so much. I will check with local mills. I know everyone wants white oaks here right now in 8 ft logs and 18" or bigger on the stump. I have some jobs lined out if I decide to move forward alone on any jobs.


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## 066blaster (Jul 11, 2014)

It probably depends on which roads your running. The county and local cops probably don't even know the laws regarding weight and dot numbers. The state cops watching the state highways and intestate do. Also the guys running goosenecks and pick ups probably don't know the laws either. Doesn't necessarily mean the crooks.


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## CRThomas (Jul 26, 2014)

I go from Illinois to Kentucky with logs for Westvaco I make sure I am under 26000. I got checked two times now they just wave me thru but I don't take no chances, when I get to Westvaco the scales man unload your self yes over there back on the scales and gone.


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## kjp (Jul 26, 2014)

i haul over 26 k with no dot almost weekly here. with no logos on the truck and being a srw pickup with a gooser no one seems to care.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

I wondered if anyone hauled small loads to westvaco. The first logging job I have has a bunch of big pines on it. What are they paying a ton there? I heard it wasn't much but I hate to leave 400 trees laying on the ground and no money for them.


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## CRThomas (Jul 27, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I know I have a lot to learn. Before I cut down my first tree for the company I am working for now I told them I wanted to start my own. I just don't know how to grade and not get ripped off by sawmills. I wouldn't know what logs are not stave logs and are in certain situations. A sawmill could talk me out of premium logs at a railroad tie price until I learn a LOT more. As far as getting contracts I can get them where I live. I still live in a community where everyone knows everyone and I am fortunate enough to have a good name with all the people in the entire county. I was playing poker with a guy the other night that was saying he wished he could get all his cyprus cut in the swamps he bought. I drove by there and saw stumps to big for any of my bars to go all the way through.
> 
> Too bad I know nothing about cyprus. Biggest trees I ever saw in this area in my life.....


 Were i live at you cut a cyprus tree get ready for a big fine. If you oun your own truck and what your hauling off of your land no problem. I only haul logs I can't cut in to firewood tho. There are places all over the states that buy cull logs by the ton


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## CRThomas (Jul 27, 2014)

kjp said:


> i haul over 26 k with no dot almost weekly here. with no logos on the truck and being a srw pickup with a gooser no one seems to care.


 Wesvco at Wickliffe Ky you call that voice comes on and say what they are doing that day and the price.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 27, 2014)

I am hauling from Benton, KY. I have heard so many different things about the price I didn't know. I knew a lot of loggers do it and a lot say to not mess with pulp. I commercial fish at Columbus for Spoonbill in the winter and have been through there a bunch.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 27, 2014)

CRThomas said:


> Were i live at you cut a cyprus tree get ready for a big fine. If you oun your own truck and what your hauling off of your land no problem. I only haul logs I can't cut in to firewood tho. There are places all over the states that buy cull logs by the ton



May sound silly... but you only haul really crappy stuff for pulp? Everything else goes to firewood? If so you may want to look at how much work your putting into what your getting for a cord of wood vs sending it to the mill. May seem like your getting paid less for logs, but you may want to crunch the numbers a bit. Also if your getting such low numbers for logs, you should maybe look at how they are being bucked and delivered. Just say'n not trying to be a jack ass, even though I'm good at it.

Also if hauling pulp is so bad, how come so many folks do it? Granted some times its part of a job to clean up all marketable wood, still if its not worth the trip then it would stay in the woods.

Personally I make more on what would be considered pulp by cutting it at 10 feet and tossing it in the dump truck, then getting paid for it as firewood, or selling it straight to the self loader jockey who then turns around and sells it as fire wood. Still though entire markets are made up of mostly pulp wood.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 27, 2014)

i hate messing with chip wood..............i got two nice loads of long gum chip wood now no one wants unless i haul it 60 miles.
if it was small oak or hickory, the fire wood buyers would fight over it.
all about the local market.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 27, 2014)

Well here all pine trees are considered junk. Most logging companies mow it over. I know that southern yellow pine is made into lumber and logs for log cabins but here they won't touch it. I peeled a bunch of it last year and had no bug problems after an instant peel and then sealing with Behr Log Cabin sealer. Here everyone says it is junk and send it straight to the mill. I don't know if it is because of wood boorers or what. My log held up fine. Its funny people where I live laugh if you try to use Pine but I see a guy by andersonville about 120 miles away and he has a full time saw mill selling lap siding, d logs, etc. He seems to sell about .60 a bd ft and stays busy. Its a low price for moulded wood, but I bet he gets it for free. As I can if I want it. 

I have yet to figure out the pulp softwood here but CRT is close enough that he may be able to explain it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 27, 2014)

Northman if you don't quit talking about firewood I am gonna go buy logs or chase tops in the woods and sell firewood. I wish I could export. Firewood is so cheap here that buy just buying and reselling I could make more brokering firewood to Chicago. I saw they have expo's of firewood that average 450.00 a cord and its always 100 or less here.


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## DanTheCanadian (Jul 28, 2014)

Supply and demand is a funny thing.


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## CRThomas (Jul 30, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> Well here all pine trees are considered junk. Most logging companies mow it over. I know that southern yellow pine is made into lumber and logs for log cabins but here they won't touch it. I peeled a bunch of it last year and had no bug problems after an instant peel and then sealing with Behr Log Cabin sealer. Here everyone says it is junk and send it straight to the mill. I don't know if it is because of wood boorers or what. My log held up fine. Its funny people where I live laugh if you try to use Pine but I see a guy by andersonville about 120 miles away and he has a full time saw mill selling lap siding, d logs, etc. He seems to sell about .60 a bd ft and stays busy. Its a low price for moulded wood, but I bet he gets it for free. As I can if I want it.
> 
> I have yet to figure out the pulp softwood here but CRT is close enough that he may be able to explain it.


 To start with I only do bundles firewood. The wood has to split straight and I only do Ash. So any other wood is trash to me but could be a gold mine to some one else. If I get a Ash and it is real knotty it is trash to me I make a very comfortable live with the way I do it. The area I live in you can not give firewood away you have to deliver it free thats the way the folks are. I take a cord of Ash and bundle it were it is nice and straight looks good that cord brings me about $750.00 minum that is at whole sale $2.50 a bundle with a order of 40 bundles or more. If I put peoples pictures or sayings or the pet picture or wrape it in krispie paper or they order it in colors it goes up as high as $10.00 dollars a bundle minum of delivered no less than 10 bundles. But a box of xmas wrap cost me $245.00 4 rolls. The first 6 weeks in this year I sold thousand of bundle because firewood sellers run out of dry wood and was selling green so they bought my wood to get there green started. The price at Westvaco today was $27.00 a ton at Westvaco or Scott City some of the wood is for paper and some for the boiler. Later


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

Thanks CRThomas! I sure wish I knew how to market firewood in this area. Everyone wants it for free here. White Oaks seem to be king in the woods for the sawmills just across the river from you. I was trying to figure out what my fuel would be to take wood to Westvaco. The only stores I have seen selling bundles around here is Huck's none of the other gas stations seem to buy bundles. I know we have Ash in this area too but I sure don't see those bundle sellers around Paducah. Maybe they are here but I am not seeing it. Maybe your the one selling here. The only wood I saw at Huck's was actually sawmill slabs cut into firewood length and put in little metal stacking containers. I assume it is for the campers headed to the lake.


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## CRThomas (Jul 30, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I just started out as a feller but I want to take on my own jobs as low impact logging in the near future. I can't dodge flying limbs forever without reaping the rewards of a great market. Everytime I pass a truckload of White Oaks standing on a farmers property on my way to fell trees for 5.00 each I want to go cut that guys trees down and get 50% instead of 50.00......
> 
> As soon as I learn how to properly grade trees I will have to make a cut or two on my own.....


 When going on your own make sure you have back up money if you work every day for cash flow you never get a head. Back up money is a must Later


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

Thats the whole reason I have 20k in the bank now and haven't bought a skidder yet. I don't want to go into this too small, but I also don't want a second mortgage on my house. Appreciate the advice.


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## CRThomas (Jul 30, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> Thanks CRThomas! I sure wish I knew how to market firewood in this area. Everyone wants it for free here. White Oaks seem to be king in the woods for the sawmills just across the river from you. I was trying to figure out what my fuel would be to take wood to Westvaco. The only stores I have seen selling bundles around here is Huck's none of the other gas stations seem to buy bundles. I know we have Ash in this area too but I sure don't see those bundle sellers around Paducah. Maybe they are here but I am not seeing it. Maybe your the one selling here. The only wood I saw at Huck's was actually sawmill slabs cut into firewood length and put in little metal stacking containers. I assume it is for the campers headed to the lake.


 If you live close to Paducah the size of that town is a little gold mine in the bundled firewood business I only servic a town of the same size and they keep me busy. If your local and reliable and sell Ash because it make your job easier if you go in to that venture you will see You have to get that thought train out of your mind that you but firewood for heat bundle dry Ash is for every thing else.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

I am 3 miles from Paducah in Ledbetter KY on HWY 60. I guess I need to look into this bundled firewood business more. i had thought about buying rounds from the sawmill at one point but I honestly don't know how the business is marketed.


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## CRThomas (Jul 30, 2014)

066blaster said:


> It probably depends on which roads your running. The county and local cops probably don't even know the laws regarding weight and dot numbers. The state cops watching the state highways and intestate do. Also the guys running goosenecks and pick ups probably don't know the laws either. Doesn't necessarily mean the crooks.


 I was in the cafe with a load of logs couple weeks a go two trooper and two DOT came in one DOT said you going to strap you log down I said I guess to stay out of trouble I told the gal at the counter I got there coffee one of the trooper said Bobbys out of wood take care of him hes our buddy you know thats the kind of place I live. Later


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

I live in the same place. Here if you get pulled over and the cop doesn't like you then you better buy another truck or you will get pulled over everytime they see you. If they like you then you can keep your truck and they will just wave.


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## CRThomas (Jul 30, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I am 3 miles from Paducah in Ledbetter KY on HWY 60. I guess I need to look into this bundled firewood business more. i had thought about buying rounds from the sawmill at one point but I honestly don't know how the business is marketed.


Find a Mini mart close to the money and a hudson bundler will run you about a $1000.00. A true rank of firewood will make a 100 bundles and remember most of your customers will be over 50 years old most of the little old ladys have trouble with a 10 to 12 lb bundle so don't do a full 12 x 12 your selling bundles not size of bundle. Let me back up I do sell bulk wood to some lady that buy the knots off me but they been customers for $20.00 they are Gay but that doesn't bother me When you deliver it to there homes they ask you to walk there dog or take out the trash it won't hurt a bit to do it some times you get a good tip. Some of my customers been with me so long they know more about me than I do. Later remember the sticks about the size of your wrist and only 8 to a bundle thats 10 o 12 lb dry Ash


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## northmanlogging (Jul 30, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I live in the same place. Here if you get pulled over and the cop doesn't like you then you better buy another truck or you will get pulled over everytime they see you. If they like you then you can keep your truck and they will just wave.



The little crap town I'm in had an issue with the police similar to this... Had a little pow wow with the "cheif" I made it clear I didn't appreciate being threatened or harassed, and the next time one threatened me they would get what they where looking for... Haven't been pulled over since. 


They have all been replaced by a sheriffs, the rest of the town has had enough as well.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeah I was trying to look up what I needed to know about GVWR and CGVWR and understand it all. We used to only have county cops. Now state troopers are everywhere looking for the next ticket. I am trying to stay under 26k whether I am logging full time or doing firewood. I saw on one site where you have to have your truck moved up on the license plate which makes no sense to me since nobody around here does for farm trucks to go to the cattle auctions. I also know they are over 26k between truck and trailer if it is added up by what the trailer says. My buddie hauls over 20k lbs on a 7klb trailer all the time hauling scrap metal and they don't even look at him. If it were logs I bet they would pull him over in a heartbeat.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 30, 2014)

There is gvwr and gvw...

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, as in how much can you carry, largely depends on the pulling vehicle, but is a combination of truck and trailer ratings, this is what you can haul legally (no cdl 26k regardless, most trucks are not rated for 26k, even if the dealer says they are either way you may still have to pay tonnage), and just because your trailer is rated for 16k, does not mean your truck is rated for 16k, or with truck trailer and load 26k or more... 

Gross Vehicle Weight, this is what you weigh, truck trailer, occupants, and load, this cannot exceed your GVWR, or you get fined...

Just be careful out there.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 30, 2014)

Well if I hooked a trailer to a 3/4 ton i just wondered what I was allowed to haul. Sawmill is 3 miles away but I would probably get popped the first load out. The sawmill does not buy at landing.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 31, 2014)

Contact your local DMV, could be that 16k is all you can haul without buying tonnage, and placing the GVW stickers on your truck. Tonnage isn't real bad until you start going up in weight, every state is different though. If I remember correctly a years tonnage on the dump truck was only like 500.

Other wise it comes down to what you feel comfortable stopping with a 3/4 ton truck, pulling isn't the issue, like so many believe its stopping that gets people hurt.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 31, 2014)

Electric breaks is my number one idea of stopping. I have hauled 24 ft boats full of fish as a commercial fisherman. I have bent some axles but never had trouble stopping.


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## CRThomas (Aug 8, 2014)

Sparks when I started all I heard was in these hill Billy's was hey man if you don't burn Oak there is some wronge with like stupid. They still think the same way and I still sell my Ash. If you going to sell bundled firewood you have to think it's for looks so you go where the customers are stay away from low end of town they buy it by the truck load. When I started I thought I had messed up. But as time went on I became the bundled firewood man with the dry wood. I pickup a good bunch of jobs cleaning up broken limbs a plugged up drain walking the dog take out the trash. I can pick my jobs now because it's just me and my wife she do the paper work I do the dumb part. Paducah has a money end of town start there. Get one store in the money end of town with a lot of traffic keep it full and watch it grow. It don't happen over night. All ways have your truck bed full my grand daughter sold 20 bundles waitin on me to eat breakfast. Could have sold more but that's all we had. All ways got my chain saw and equipment with me. Later


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