# Small diameter tree - no obvious lean?



## Billy_Bob (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm reading a book and the author mentions this happening to himself every now and then...

What do you do if you have a small diameter tree (say around 10 inches) and it has no lean any particular direction that you can see?

You cut the face cut, then start cutting the back cut and the tree sits back on your saw! (Actually tree was leaning back toward back cut, but this was not obvious.)

Again this is a situation where you can't stick a wedge in the back cut because there is not enough room for the saw and a wedge....

Now if you did the opposite, cut back cut first, stick in wedge, then face cut, then I suppose the tree could bind your saw while cutting the face cut???

So what to do in this situation to keep your saw from getting stuck?


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## ropensaddle (Jul 25, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> I'm reading a book and the author mentions this happening to himself every now and then...
> 
> What do you do if you have a small diameter tree (say around 10 inches) and it has no lean any particular direction that you can see?
> 
> ...



Take two large wooden pruner poles and snap them together and then
encapsulate them with pvc pipe to stiffen them up, now make a poker
end to fit on the head pole and make it sturdy. Then you can stick the
sharpened poker into the tree at ten foot up and push that puppy over!


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## tree_beard (Jul 25, 2008)

if youre a rope and throwline kinda guy, now would be a good time to use em...


if not its a hike back to the truck to get the second saw, and re-cut the tree a foot or so higher than your original cuts, taking into account the lean this time...


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## Bushler (Jul 25, 2008)

Use a plumb bob.


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## Zackman1801 (Jul 25, 2008)

do what ropensaddle said but easier. take your axe find a small diameter tree with a fork in it, chop it down cut to desired length, use the fork to stick under a branch or just wedge it against the tree and push, if the tree dosent fall over you might be able to kick your saw gentely out of the tree. if that fails, walk back to the truck and get the other saw.....or else just knock it over with your skidder......thats probably the quickest option.


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## Humptulips (Jul 26, 2008)

There isn't always a piece of equipment around to bail you out and I can't really see pushing over by hand that large of a tree so make sure you know the lean. If it truly has no lean (a rarity) it shouldn't set back on you unless you're overdoing the undercut.
After it has set back on you there are three things you can do.
#1 Cuss, this always helps me. If a couple good epitaphs don't free your saw up proceed to step 2
#2 Kick something. Pick something soft liked a clump of dirt. I've been known to kick my hat but I usually save that for bigger problems. It sometimes helps to kick something while cursing. If that doesn't free the saw up you're really bad hung. Go to step 3
#3 Go hunting for another saw. Truly a last resort but sometimes we are forced to grasp at straws.


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## smokechase II (Jul 26, 2008)

*Usually*

Often we ask for photos.

In this case, what is the name of the book?


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## Bushler (Jul 26, 2008)

Right, save kicking the hat for after the tree goes over the stump and smashes the saw. Never over react.

You can usually get the motor off the saw, and somtimes then you can pull the bar out from the chain, which limits your loss, and also by taking the motor and bar out you can drive a wedge in over the chain, (knocks off a couple teeth) and get the tree down.

It usually happens right at quitting time.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 26, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> There isn't always a piece of equipment around to bail you out and I can't really see pushing over by hand that large of a tree so make sure you know the lean. If it truly has no lean (a rarity) it shouldn't set back on you unless you're overdoing the undercut.
> After it has set back on you there are three things you can do.
> #1 Cuss, this always helps me. If a couple good epitaphs don't free your saw up proceed to step 2
> #2 Kick something. Pick something soft liked a clump of dirt. I've been known to kick my hat but I usually save that for bigger problems. It sometimes helps to kick something while cursing. If that doesn't free the saw up you're really bad hung. Go to step 3
> #3 Go hunting for another saw. Truly a last resort but sometimes we are forced to grasp at straws.


My poker has pushed trees much larger than you would imagine up
to thirty inches although I don't recommend pushing them over twenty.
It makes fast work out of no risk type felling and two people can scoot!
I am guessing you would chit your britches if you knew what the poker
pole patent pending can accomplish  It is better than the mighty
cancer curing saw the stihl heads rally you know the husky copy! ms361xp
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Rookie1 (Jul 26, 2008)

Id like to see pis of that patent pending poker stick.opcorn:


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## ropensaddle (Jul 26, 2008)

Rookie1 said:


> Id like to see pis of that patent pending poker stick.opcorn:



I will have to make another proto type someone stole my first!


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## Bushler (Jul 26, 2008)

Actually, the best solution is to avoid the hang up by using a plumb bob. As I get older, and older, (good accomplishment for a timber cutter) I find it more productive to take a little time and determine lean accurately.

One screw up will take up a lot of time, an hour lost is an hour lost. My normal cutting proceedure is to walk accross the top of the strip checking lean, a couple times a day. Remembering which trees lean how.

Not to say I don't get hung up...I do, probably once a week or so. Makes me mad. 5 minutes with a plumb bob will save an hour with ax and wedges and saves money too. A 3 oz sinker cost less than a new saw.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 26, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Often we ask for photos.
> 
> In this case, what is the name of the book?



"The Good Woodcutter's Guide" by Dave Johnson
(in the felling section)


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## Rookie1 (Jul 26, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I will have to make another proto type someone stole my first!


Youll have to make a miniature one to poke out the guys eye that stole the first one! ?You dont think hes going to beat you to the patant office do you?


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## ropensaddle (Jul 26, 2008)

Rookie1 said:


> Youll have to make a miniature one to poke out the guys eye that stole the first one! ?You dont think hes going to beat you to the patant office do you?



Actually I was joking about patenting it as they are easy to make
but I do miss the one I made and used it a lot on new powerline
rows we cut. I will have to get me some more big poles and pvc
the poker I made out of scrap it is heavy sort of but it will push
twenty inch trees with authority. I have tried to explain how to make
one so anyone could make their own for speedy felling of small timber.
Remember the pvc makes it long so you have to have enough length
on you trailer to store it but with out the pvc you will likely break the
poles and have a dangerous situation coming your way.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 27, 2008)

I've heard of old timers using push poles to get back leaners to fall, on the side of the mountain most of course want to fall downhill but there will be some up agasinst the bluff that need some help. Also, fellows having their sons walk witht them all day just pounding wedges, their bucket of wedges.


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## Dadatwins (Jul 27, 2008)

The poker trick will work, but the one thing not brought up is wind. Assuming a perfectly calm day you assemble the poker and get the job done, but the slightest breeze on a tree full of leaves could be a disaster. When in doubt put a rope in it.


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## smokechase II (Jul 27, 2008)

*Upon further review of "The Good Woodcutter's Guide"*

Hardly A Guide 2 stars (out of 5) 
The author has an easy readable, style that found me reading the book in one evening. It is laced with humorous anecdotes, but that is where the "goodness" stops. The information on saw and tree safety is a gloss over at best and very disturbing considering the immense danger involved in proper cutting, never mind improper. A chainsaw manual from a reputable dealer has more safety and technique information than this book. Novices beware; this book will not teach you how to be a "good" woodcutter. The pages on selecting clothing at the Salvation Army and driving around in a beater of a truck would have been better used discussing wood cutting, but it obvious that his self-taught methods and his "it's not the right way, but the way I do it" attitude will get some unlucky beginner killed. Don't buy this book if you are looking for info on Chainsaw milling, he knows nothing about it.
A better title might have been "Subsistence Living with Pulp and Cordwood." 

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The Good _Logger's_ Guide 3 stars 
The title is misleading. While they mention sawmills in the title, there is precious little information on milling, 11 out of 212 pages. If you are looking for info on wood and drying it, try Hadley’s "Understanding Wood", and "Fine Woodworking On: Wood and How to dry it". 

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Dubious Authenticity 2 stars 
Although the "Good woodcutter's guide" reads well and is loaded with information from techniques to equipment, it does suffer from some shortcomings, most notably a lack of clarity in the description of potentially lethal activities and materials. For example, the discussion of chain saw "kickback" in which he disagrees with conventional wisdom is interesting, but if the novice is to follow advice that runs counter to other expert opinion, he'd better be supremely confident in the author's ability. I have found reason to question the reliability of some of the claims the author makes. An outstanding example is his advocating of a tree felling practice he calls the "open face" method in which the central concept is the cutting of a "notch of 90 degrees" in the trunk. The photographs and drawings shown decidedly contradict this since they appear to be 45 degree notches (Pgs. 91 and 109). It is actually mathematically impossible to cut a 90 degree notch in a trunk unless the bottom cut slopes upward to some degree, yet Mr. Johnson specifically states that the bottom cut must be a HORIZONTAL cut. Has he ever dropped a tree using his own method? I'd like to know how. If I'm going to engage in risky task like falling trees, I want to know that the person's advice I'm following can be counted on to be the safest available. I hate to be picky, but when the clock strikes thirteen, it's time to throw away the clock. On the other hand, if I've missed something, I'd appreciate an explanation and offer my apology. 

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The Good Woodcutters Guide 3 stars 
Dave Johnson is a practical guy, who writes a practical guide. He provides a very good review of chainsaw use, safety, and maintenance. He also does a pretty good job of discussing bucking, felling, and all other aspects of getting pine trees off your lot for money. 
The other areas discussed, such as sawmills, and economics were interesting, but only cursory. If you are already proficient with a chainsaw, but want to know more about woodlot management, this is not your book.

My only two minor criticisms of the book are Johnson should use diagrams more when he is describing the techniques of felling, bucking etc. Also, it was evident that the author was biased to recommend products sold by his publisher. In particular, his acclaim of a sawmill that the publisher sells, even though he admits that he never used one. 

If you are looking for a good book on using your chainsaw to get wood on the ground, this is the book for you. 


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A sad book. 1 star 
This book might be of interest for experienced woodcutters but is useless for an inexperienced person who wants to learn about chainsaws. The author does not define any of the dozens of technical terms he uses.
As a retired professor of mathematics I am full of sympathy for people who have great difficulties with elementary notions of arithmetic and geometry. Dave Johnson is obviously one of those. One example among many: "Cubic inch displacement is the volume swept by the piston in a single full stroke. Basically, it is the diameter of the piston time the length of the stroke" (page 35). A good book editor should have protected the author from flaunting his shortcomings.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 27, 2008)

I should have mentioned to take the above book with a grain of salt, but I don't like to post negative comments in general.

Note that I also have also read "Professional Timber Falling" by Douglas Dent, White Paper: "Felling and Bucking Techniques for Woodland Owners" by Oregon State University Extension Service, and "A Guide to Tree Felling and Cross Cutting" by Occupational Safety and Health Service - New Zealand.

Then of course I've read chainsaw instruction manuals, the Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual, and watched the Stihl chain Saw Safety, Operation & Maintenance DVD.

So having read all of the above, I can read the above book and recognize that there are many unsafe ideas suggested.

BUT... I always learn something from reading just about any book as I did reading this book. I frequently find tid bits of information hidden in different books on the same subject.

So just don't read that book first!


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## ropensaddle (Jul 27, 2008)

Dadatwins said:


> The poker trick will work, but the one thing not brought up is wind. Assuming a perfectly calm day you assemble the poker and get the job done, but the slightest breeze on a tree full of leaves could be a disaster. When in doubt put a rope in it.



Yes, high wind does have an effect but the original post was ten inch
diameter trees and if you have some grunt, it would have to be gale
force winds with that small of tree. I am not saying to try the impossible
with this pole but I will tell ya I have pushed some you would never have
thought I could. If you do make one start small and don't try more than
you can handle and don't use it if property or injury could be likely and
after several you get the idea of its limitations.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 27, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Actually, the best solution is to avoid the hang up by using a plumb bob. As I get older, and older, (good accomplishment for a timber cutter) I find it more productive to take a little time and determine lean accurately.
> 
> One screw up will take up a lot of time, an hour lost is an hour lost. My normal cutting proceedure is to walk accross the top of the strip checking lean, a couple times a day. Remembering which trees lean how.
> 
> Not to say I don't get hung up...I do, probably once a week or so. Makes me mad. 5 minutes with a plumb bob will save an hour with ax and wedges and saves money too. A 3 oz sinker cost less than a new saw.



Plumb bob I have level and plumb by sight I don't need a bob.
I can look at the tree first then walk to the stump and tell you
without a doubt where it wants to fall! Experience is what that
consists of while you are trying to get that plumb bob out of
your tool box I will have it on the ground unless climbing is needed
but then what would be the use for a bob? I truly can see plumb
and level by sight I guess I have a gifted perception but I can visualize
a rifle scope cross hairs that stay square with the world a sort of built in
transit if you will!


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## Dadatwins (Jul 27, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Yes, high wind does have an effect but the original post was ten inch
> diameter trees and if you have some grunt, it would have to be gale
> force winds with that small of tree. I am not saying to try the impossible
> with this pole but I will tell ya I have pushed some you would never have
> ...


I have 10" diameter pines here that reach 90' high, you ain't poking them over with no stick.  As with any tool or person I think Clint Eastwood said it best, "A man has got to know his limitations"


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## ropensaddle (Jul 27, 2008)

Dadatwins said:


> I have 10" diameter pines here that reach 90' high, you ain't poking them over with no stick.  As with any tool or person I think Clint Eastwood said it best, "A man has got to know his limitations"



I agree on knowing limitations but I would bet money on me being
able to push with my stick but I know my limitations well!


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## icthruu74 (Jul 30, 2008)

In a situation like that, I'd be likely to say you took too small a notch on the face, and should have made an angled back-cut....


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## Bushler (Jul 30, 2008)

Rope, I call bull####. If you can stand on a steep slope and accurately guage the lean of every tree on a strip by looking at the stump you have a gift I've never seen before. Limb influence, sweep, etc. is not readily discernable.


My plumb bob is in my pocket, not in my tool box. I use it constantly.


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## Bushler (Jul 30, 2008)

Furthermore, if your vast experience warrants, bring your tools out west and we can see just how productive you are. I have plenty of trees you can demonstrate your abilities on. Most are on steep slopes, make sure your insurance is paid, and bring your 'poker pole'.

I'll cut on one strip, you on the other, and we'll scale our production at the end of the day.

Bring it.


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## Humptulips (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm not going to jump into this plumb bob argument. Can say I never carried one but what do you expect from a hooktender. My pockets already stuffed with other stuff.
Anyway back to what I started out to say. I never had much trouble with straight trees but what about trees with sweep. 
What tricks to do use when falling a tree with sweep both way? In other words those S shaped ones or maybe sweep or lean one way but limb heavy the other way. Those are the ones I walk around scratching my head on.


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## ray benson (Jul 30, 2008)

icthruu74 said:


> In a situation like that, I'd be likely to say you took too small a notch on the face, and should have made an angled back-cut....



Please no angled back cut.


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## Bushler (Jul 30, 2008)

Pistol butts, sweep both ways, forked tops, heavy branches, ground sloped two ways,...all the mysteries are easily solved with a three oz. lead sinker and a piece of string.

One of the few things in life that stays consistent is gravity.


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## 2dogs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Pistol butts, sweep both ways, forked tops, heavy branches, ground sloped two ways,...all the mysteries are easily solved with a three oz. lead sinker and a piece of string.
> 
> One of the few things in life that stays consistent is gravity.



I don't know. Maybe the Canadians use metric gravity.


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## Humptulips (Jul 30, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Pistol butts, sweep both ways, forked tops, heavy branches, ground sloped two ways,...all the mysteries are easily solved with a three oz. lead sinker and a piece of string.
> 
> One of the few things in life that stays consistent is gravity.



Ok, but when half the tree is in one side of your string and half on the other how do you decide which is heaviest?
Also I've seen many trees that had lean one direction but were limb heavy enough to take the tree the opposite direction.
I just use my best judgement but sometimes I get it wrong. As an example I fell a tree a couple months ago that I looked at for a long time wondering. Two about 4 foot spruce growed together for about 30 feet and limbs tied together above that. Couldn't fall at right angles to lean because of power lines. Your plum bob would have showed air with a tree on each side. Both had obvious lean but which was heaviest. With a lot of pounding it hit the ground.
Just wondered if you had any tricks up your sleeve beyond the plum bob.


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## slowp (Jul 30, 2008)

Here's real life. The rigging crew needed some trees cut for guylines and room for more landing. This cutter was nearby so they got him and asked him to please drop the trees and by the way, don't block the road because we have trucks hauling. It is very steep, and both trees were leaning downhill towards the road. I wish I'd gotten the pumice cutbank in the picture.






So, he took his time and got one down where it was wanted, and the second one, which had a harder lean to it, went the intended direction after a lot of work. But, although it landed in the intended spot, it then rolled DOWN ONTO THE ROAD. Just another thing to worry about.


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## Bushler (Jul 31, 2008)

Hump, when you look at the plumb line you see where the weight is, whether its from limbs, second tops etc. For example, a school marm, one leg might be straight up, the other leans slightly. If the crotch is tight then fall both togeather. 

Heavy limbs high up have a lot of drag. If the tree leans only slightly, but has some heavy branches on the opposite side, go with the limbs. Spruce are a good example of this.

Checking lean against sweep, use some judgement on which side is heavier, and how far out of plumb the top is.

Point is, a $.50 sinker can save a $500 saw and/or a lot of wedging and frustration and time.

Next time you cut, take a plumb bob and try it. It takes very little time to know for sure, maybe 30 seconds for each of two sides. 

I usually park above my strip and walk in the morning plumbing trees as I go. same going out at night, always plumbing and thinking ahead how I'm going to cut this or that.

The guys that taught me always carried plumb bobs. Part of your tools.


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## Humptulips (Jul 31, 2008)

That's what I'm talking about. A few more details.
Good advice always appreciated. Thanks


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## Bushler (Jul 31, 2008)

I bet your Dad carried a bob when he was topping tall spar trees.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 31, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Furthermore, if your vast experience warrants, bring your tools out west and we can see just how productive you are. I have plenty of trees you can demonstrate your abilities on. Most are on steep slopes, make sure your insurance is paid, and bring your 'poker pole'.
> 
> I'll cut on one strip, you on the other, and we'll scale our production at the end of the day.
> 
> Bring it.



I will say we have steep ground here too and I do it here I have
an excellent equilibrium and cross hairs ingrained into my mind.
I have set windows and things of that nature and leveled my
trailer with no level. I can the put one on it and she bubbles.
I am sorry I did not mean to make you mad it is a gift I guess.
I would take you up on the west deal but I am not into production
type labor! :Eye:


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## 056 kid (Jul 31, 2008)

When you are staring up an old ass fir that looks to have the same girth as a grain silo, You will get it wrong one day. I wish that i ws still out west!!


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## redlaker (Jul 31, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> I would take you up on the west deal but I am not into production
> type labor! :Eye:



I wasn't aware there was any other kind of labor??? not in the industry that I work in anyways


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## ropensaddle (Jul 31, 2008)

redlaker said:


> I wasn't aware there was any other kind of labor??? not in the industry that I work in anyways



Well I meant logging vrs climbing and felling near property!


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## ropensaddle (Jul 31, 2008)

056 kid said:


> When you are staring up an old ass fir that looks to have the same girth as a grain silo, You will get it wrong one day. I wish that i ws still out west!!



Well ok if you say so but hell I would do the same with bob.


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## Bushler (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm not mad, can I call you Leupold?

Two years ago I was bull bucking for a crew of three cutters, and myself. Two of the cutters were constantly having me come get them out of jack pots. Agitated I asked one of them where his plumb bob was....he didn't know what I was talking about.

His strip was a mess. The second cutter was the same, not a clue. I let both of them find other employment.


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## Humptulips (Aug 1, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I bet your Dad carried a bob when he was topping tall spar trees.



You would lose that bet. 
The trees I have topped no trouble deciphering lean. Most are limb heavy and you can go with that. Only had one set back on me and that was wind. Topping trees in gusty wind not the most intelligent thing to be doing but kind of forced to do it. It was white fir to boot. Scared the begeebers out of me. Didn't pinch the saw though and fell it the way it set back although it made a kind of a mess. Right on a bunch of coils I had cold decked.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 1, 2008)

Bushler said:


> I'm not mad, can I call you Leupold?
> 
> Two years ago I was bull bucking for a crew of three cutters, and myself. Two of the cutters were constantly having me come get them out of jack pots. Agitated I asked one of them where his plumb bob was....he didn't know what I was talking about.
> 
> His strip was a mess. The second cutter was the same, not a clue. I let both of them find other employment.



Heck no, I am not a generic, more like Carl Zeiss or Swarofski not
something you can get at wally world  I don't think ya would have to
worry about a mess with me but I may be slacking some as I have slowed
down some as the dust is starting to settle in me hair


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## Bushler (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm surprized your dad didn't carry one. Maybe he used his ax for plumb. Lot of guys do...I just never liked that as much.

Give it a try...see if you don't like it. I'll shut up about it now.


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## joesawer (Aug 2, 2008)

Just for the fun of it, and in the name of science, I tried a variation of your theory on cutting a kerf on one side to move a small tree towards the needed lean.
I had to cut a small pine on a steep bank that grew out of the ground at about a 30 degree angle for about 3 feet, then made an abrupt turn nearly straight up and just slightly up the hill. 
The sharply angled lower 3 feet leaned down the hill. This put the hinge wood close to the ground above the center of mass, so that if cut close to the ground the favor was down the hill. If cut at the crook the favor was slightly up the hill.
I wanted the tree to go up the hill, so I cut into it above the crook until it started to open the kerf on the back cut with no face. This moved the top of the tree farther up hill. Then I faced and back cut the stump, and it tried to set back. So I moved back to the upper cut and cut a little deeper, the top moved some more, but not enough. 
I wound up cutting the top cut until it peeled off and then cut the stump off.
I would have been better off to have cut a small face in the upper part and let it close on the face, or make a more open face and just cut if off.
In relevance to your situation I could not get the top to move very far before it wanted to split and fall without a face.

On the plumb bob, I don't carry a weight and string, but use my ax often. It is not nearly as precise, but it gives a good reference. 
When there is absolutely nothing level or square in sight and the whole world seems to be turned on edge, I need a good reference to judge the lean.
With an ax you have to be careful not to influence it with your grip. You have to pinch the handle so that the head hangs down with out being pulled off to one side or the other. You also cannot see the whole tree at one time. I will often line up where my hinge is going to be, then site up one side of the handle then the other.
Bushler is absolutely correct, you have to judge the whole mass of the tree, not just the trunk.
A while back some one on here commented on The wind blowing the plumb bob over and making it ineffective. If the wind is fairly steady and from generally the same direction, it can make directional falling a "breeze".


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## ropensaddle (Aug 2, 2008)

Yeah on the whole mass but I don't need the bob I do understand
the rest though. I have seen many people make the mistake of looking at
log lean only and fooled because top weight grown opposite the tree
will nearly always follow the top weight. Every once in a while it don't
matter if you shoot it with a transit, use a bob or have a keen eye as
I do, the tree is dead set against fooling ya's!


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