# Logging with oxen or horses



## NateleeWi (Dec 10, 2015)

Ok so I live in northern Wisconsin and am seriously considering starting a sustainable low impact logging company using either horses, mules, or oxen to skid the wood out. Wondering if anyone has worked with either ox or mules. I have used horses before for farm chores but never logged with them. I see a desire for this type of company to go into smaller tracts of land and select cut with out destroying everything on the way out. It would be a one or possibly two man operation. Just kicking around the idea. Any input would be great.


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## Johnmn (Dec 10, 2015)

There's a guys close to me that logs with horses. He's in hill city mn I know he had some info online might be worth searching. His stuff sure looks nice when he's done


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## Marshy (Dec 10, 2015)

I wish I had the time and knowledge to do horse logging as a hobby. The amount of poise they have is impressive.


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## Gologit (Dec 10, 2015)

Horses are fine but a machine only eats when it's working.


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## slowp (Dec 10, 2015)

You need to be healthy. The horses do the heavy work, but you'll be running along with them. Oh, and it takes a bit to get the horse in shape too. 

The horse I saw work decided to go home one night. He was in a corral at the unit and got out and went home. He was too tired to work the next day. Just like people.


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## Marshy (Dec 10, 2015)

That is true but if your doomed like I am because your wife is a horse person then you might as well make the best of it.


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## NateleeWi (Dec 10, 2015)

Thanks for your input. My wife is a horse person but I am leaning towards ox but I have access to lots of Amish horses already trained. Never drove a team before so might see if I can get out and work with them.


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## Marshy (Dec 10, 2015)

The horses the Amish use would probably work but they are warmbloods and are not the big work horses people generally use for heavy work. You should consider a draft horse for thst.


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## Gologit (Dec 10, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Thanks for your input. My wife is a horse person but I am leaning towards ox but I have access to lots of Amish horses already trained. Never drove a team before so might see if I can get out and work with them.


 You might want to learn some farrier skills too. A horse is like any other piece of logging equipment...it helps the bottom line if you can work on it yourself.


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## M_S_S (Dec 10, 2015)

Showing horses is tough work, shoeing draft horses are double tough. When I was a young man I shod horses commercially. Mostly pleasure horses and ranch horses. I use to go up to the Sierra Valley about every two weeks and shoe ranch horses for about three days. Several of the ranches had teams they fed cattle with. They wanted them shod every fall. I never worked so hard in my life lol. Most were gentle, all were heavy. I would rather shoe ten rough horses than one gentle giant lol


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## Gologit (Dec 10, 2015)

M_S_S said:


> Showing horses is tough work, shoeing draft horses are double tough. When I was a young man I shod horses commercially. Mostly pleasure horses and ranch horses. I use to go up to the Sierra Valley about every two weeks and shoe ranch horses for about three days. Several of the ranches had teams they fed cattle with. They wanted them shod every fall. I never worked so hard in my life lol. Most were gentle, all were heavy. I would rather shoe ten rough horses than one gentle giant lol



Loyalton?


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## M_S_S (Dec 10, 2015)

Loyalton, Chilcote, Sierraville all over the valley. Shod lots of horses.


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## M_S_S (Dec 10, 2015)

My sister was payroll clerk at the mil at Loyalton in the early 70's


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## NateleeWi (Dec 10, 2015)

I know farrier work other than shoeing. And that's something them Amish could help with. And FYI the Amish up in Wisconsin team drafts for all field and wood work. Only use quarters for wagons and such. So I'll be getting in touch with someone and learning hopefully before snow falls.


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## Gologit (Dec 10, 2015)

M_S_S said:


> Loyalton, Chilcote, Sierraville all over the valley. Shod lots of horses.



Miserable cold country in the winter. We logged on the snow up there for a couple of winters. I don't think I'm thawed out yet.


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## DavdH (Dec 10, 2015)

There used to be a guy in Grass Valley that horse logged, went out on one of his jobs and it was mostly going for fire wood. Can't skid much of a log by horse if there is any adverse at all. Teams 2 abreast take just as much space as a small skidder and you are right about feeding equipment.. It was supposed to be low impact.
Here is paper from the 1980's..

http://www.fire.ca.gov/resource_mgt/downloads/notes/Note95.pdf

The wind doesn't blow in Loyalton it sucks! And cold , you are right Gologit! Truckee is warmer but lots more Sno...


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## jwade (Dec 10, 2015)

i live in virginia and belonged to the virginia draft horse and mule association, you might check and see if wisconsin has an equivilent association. i know here you could get help from members who horse logging both as a hobbey and working small tracts. oxen work hard and are durable, but i have seen them work until tired and then lay down and refuse to work until they are ready. you have to be careful with horses, as you can actually work them until they founder and die. if i was considering this endevor i woulrd highly recommend a belgium or percheron as both of these breeds are hard working, sturdy and relatively easy to train.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 10, 2015)

There's a guy "Len" in the Cloquet area that has a team of draught horses he works with and does shows, etc. I lost his email address and don't know how to contact him directly, but maybe if you snooped around you could find someone who knows him He was very willing to allow me to come visit and watch them work sometime. I'd imagine he'd be a good resource to consult and bounce ideas off.

He was retired from working in the prisons. Super nice guy!


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## bitzer (Dec 10, 2015)

I met a guy who logged with horses. He got paid by time not volume. If that tells you anything. Either that or you have to high grade a woods. He nearly got killed the day after i talked to him by his horses. I also skidded up a bunch of amish logs that were done with horses. How they had them tucked in on the skid trail i could tell they were good at it. They also WAY over cut the woods and left the crap. Believe it or not if done when conditions are right a small forwarder in a small woods can leave very little impact. The horse logging thing in WI (unless you are amish) is kind of a passing fancy.


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## slowp (Dec 10, 2015)

Years ago, I stopped to talk to some woodcutters. They had hauled up their Shetland Pony to thw woods and would hook pony sized logs to his harness, slap him on the butt and he'd drag the log to the road where a person was waiting to unhook it, and they'd send him back for more. Nobody had to run along with him. They said it was how he earned his keep. That little guy was working hard but willingly! Just a little story about a little pony.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 10, 2015)

Customer of mine used to log with horses ,he still does once in a while for recreation ,but prefers shovels and yarders now .


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## windthrown (Dec 10, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Ok so I live in northern Wisconsin and am seriously considering starting a sustainable low impact logging company using either horses, mules, or oxen to skid the wood out. Wondering if anyone has worked with either ox or mules. I have used horses before for farm chores but never logged with them. I see a desire for this type of company to go into smaller tracts of land and select cut with out destroying everything on the way out. It would be a one or possibly two man operation. Just kicking around the idea. Any input would be great.



Contradiction in terms there. Low impact logging with horses, oxen and mules. I lived on a 105 acre timber tract with my ex in Southern Oregon (where I was when I joined AS). That was horse logged circa 1900 and again in the 1940s, and there were still obvious evidence of the horse tracks, soil compaction, and erosion as a result. It still is not pretty, some 100 years later. The problem with horses and oxen (educated cows) is that they put a huge amount of weight on very small areas under their feet. They leave post holes all over the place. Also here in the west it is pretty well known that horse property is pretty bad when it comes to environmental issues, mainly from runoff from horse manure. You have to pasture the horses someplace when they are not working in logging teams, feed them, and deal with the manure piles. I have tractored out tons of manure into huge steaming piles myself, and we had to dig barrier trenches around the barn to keep the nitrogen from running into and damaging the streams there.

I know that it may sound contradictory, but it is actually better using the new tractors and logging equipment with wide treads and tires that go in and out pretty lightly and do far less damage. I have studied this and seen this myself in great detail. I have been through and to hundreds of logging locations, timber stands and clear cuts in the west. Best practices are actually quite different than what is being done for the most part. I have a certificate in silviculture from OSU, but the best way to plant and manage tree stands I learned from a guy named George Fenn in Elkton, Oregon. He died back in 2009, but he preached planting multiple species of trees and using newer light treading harvesting methods and equipment. He had a 240 acre timber tract that he dragged me all over, as well as his 400 acres of pastures. He showed me 1:1 comparisons of his stands to the logging company stands around his property which were not nearly as robust. He had planting to cut periods down to about 40 years, with thinning at 20 years. He was quite an amazing character, really. Timber was his second career he was an inventor and engineer before that.

Anyway, besides dealing with and managing horses in pastures and feeding them, you have to get them to and from the logging sites, you have to train them in teams and get the logging done, and you have to compete with logging companies that have machinery that can do the work cheaper and faster, and with the right equipment, and can leave less of an impact on the environment. Been there, lived that. Pretty much every property around me now is a timber tract, has horses on it, or both. No logging is done by horses here though. Its all skidders, yarders and trucks. Diesel is king.


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## slowp (Dec 10, 2015)

Windthrown, it would depend on soil types, topography, and amount of precipitation. I've been around only the one guy, but that was in AZ, on flat ground, during conditions that were too wet to use a skidder. It was a beautiful job of logging, and I saw less impact on the ground. The only caveat was decking. He couldn't deck logs with one horse and no rigged up old timey system. But roads were too mucky to get trucks in anyway. The tree size was small, that's why one draft horse was adequate.

Different areas of the country have different ways of doing things that are appropriate for that specific area. If I learned anything from working in different states, that was the main lesson.


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## 2dogs (Dec 11, 2015)

I worked for a horse logging outfit for several years, Shires, Belgians, and Percherons. We used a hand made logging cart it lifted the front of the log when the horses pulled. Horses can't carry much weight but they can pull massive loads if they can get the load moving. This means two 20" logs 16' long on flat smooth ground. Your team will eat 2 bales a day along with a couple cans of grain. They need shade in the summer and a windbreak or shelter in the winter. If you hire a farrier he will probably charge you $200.00 to shoe the team plus shoes. If your horses spend a couple months on pasture then they will need nearly a month of conditioning before they can work.

The biggest obstacles are training the horses and training the driver.
:


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## Gypo Logger (Dec 11, 2015)




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## windthrown (Dec 11, 2015)

They horse logged Oregon for years with high wheels to drag or haul logs around with. 

This is a typical high wheel 'skidder': 





This is a horse team using tandem high wheels to haul logs:


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## anlrolfe (Dec 11, 2015)

I've worked with a B.I.L. who keeps steers and work/trains them on a regular basis for exhibition and pulling competitions in Maine. Much of New England 4-H keeps steers as their project and county fairs for show. These animals can do incredible work and I have great respect for those that maintain the tradition. All that said for the rest of us its much more practical to turn the key than muck out a stall.


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## M_S_S (Dec 11, 2015)

2dogs said:


> I worked for a horse logging outfit for several years, Shires, Belgians, and Percherons. We used a hand made logging cart it lifted the front of the log when the horses pulled. Horses can't carry much weight but they can pull massive loads if they can get the load moving. This means two 20" logs 16' long on flat smooth ground. Your team will eat 2 bales a day along with a couple cans of grain. They need shade in the summer and a windbreak or shelter in the winter. If you hire a farrier he will probably charge you $200.00 to shoe the team plus shoes. If your horses spend a couple months on pasture then they will need nearly a month of conditioning before they can work.
> 
> The biggest obstacles are training the horses and training the driver.
> :


2Dogs I dought you could get a team shod for $200 plus shoes. Cold shoers get a low of $80 to a high of $100 for saddle horses. Hot shoers get considerably more. I damn sure wouldn't want to shoe a draft cold. I bet the cost would be around $400 to shoe the team. You can buy ready made shoes but you still have to make them fit the foot. They are a hell of a lot bigger and heavier than saddle horse shoes and the nails are about twice the size. Then you should draw clips to help hold them on when pulling hard. Think I would look for a small skidder lol.


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## Frank Savage (Dec 11, 2015)

Depends on terrain. On flat land, horses can work on their own between choker setter and chaser. Sometimes in the mountains, it is a must. For some time, I was raised in the mountains and seen there horses working on their own. The most extreme thing I´ve seen was 45° to 52° slope (well, short portions even a bit steeper), that had to be selectively cut, the leade was set uphill only for horses. Not fun for the fallers. Then a horse was led from the top of the unit, he was shown the log and walked right and all along it, hitched up by long (some 25´) pullrope and told to go. From little gentle pull as to make the log (like 6"-18", 15´to 50´long) moving in very lazy walk, he was almost in galoop when finishing to the end of shalow gully in the slope. On last +/- 20yds, he pulled the butt slightly to the left, which made the upper end of the log starting to roll, run atop of the right bank of the gully, sending the log flying fiercefully, perpendicular to the direction of movement, on the pullrope with 4 to 6 swivels stacked in it. Three trees were left there as "stop-spars", the log smacked into them, falled on the ground and the horse (still in movement, sliding like in slide race) then pulled it over the edge of 20´, 60° bank down on the road. The log usualy ran up the deck on its own. Weight of the logs differed, lenght differed greatly-and the ballancing as how to hit the stop-spars was absolutely essential to stop the log, but ballance it so it needed just a little to run over the edge of the bank in one smooth, stop-less motion as the horse was sliding by. There were three horses running this unit, all of one owner. He was the kind of hell-knows-how-old (sure 70+, but knotty and tough as gordic knot on steel chain) stubby, sneazy man as rude, half-mouthed and ignorant to people around as you can imagine, but sure he was the most caring, gentle and comprehensive creature once one of those horses was in question.
It was the most dangerous, awesome thing I´ve ever seen with horses involved. Any mistake on their judgement as when to start pulling the butt to the left, the log would not run atop the bank of the gulley, would stay on course, fly over the road like a missile and end up in a stream some 60´below-towing the horse through the air. Once the horse started the pull too early, lost the tension in the pullorpe and the log ended up too far back as to be easily slid down the bank to the road. He obviously knew it is going wrong, because he was working the hell as to slide the bank as slow as he could-still there was a noticeable jerk when he was stopped by the harness, just below the bank. The pullrope was intentionaly longer than the bank slope, sure for this eventuality. Mostly, if ya do anything abrupt to a horse, he is nervous at least, so to say. This one? Calm as lead billet, just his ears and eyes were saying "f**ck, screwed up, could have been ugly. Sorry guys" and waited until unhooked, rehooked with longer rope and then just pulled the log over the edge as nothing happened.
They wer some mix breed about the size of small quarter. But I think most quarter champions are weak and feeble pussies compared to them, no pun or disgrace indeed...

Sorry for OT, just a story from when I was 5 or 6 old, still very bright and detailed floating in memories (albeit I´m not old). Have no serious experience with flatlands, except that heavier-framed breeds are desirable. The bigger the hoofs, the better-ground pressure, ya know? Fun aside, even horses can make a helluva mess from the skidtrail and it seems to me that small-hoofed ones are more prone to split front wall of the hoof when they badly hit a rock in the mud while in full pull...


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## NateleeWi (Dec 12, 2015)

Thanks everyone. Yeah. I'm still not sure. You have to understand that up here logging is huge and most companies have reps and are known for what they do. Trying to break out in the market I would have to do something different. A reason why they'd pick my business over someone else. I need to stand out. Can just be another guy with a Skidder and chainsaw. I'm sure there lots that would do it cheaper and faster with more help than I could offer. But that's why thinking about having my own niche of the industry up here would be a must.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 12, 2015)

You could wear a loin cloth and sing Bee Gee's songs while felling too. Doesn't mean you'll get any more business or make enough money to survive doing it.


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## bitzer (Dec 12, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Thanks everyone. Yeah. I'm still not sure. You have to understand that up here logging is huge and most companies have reps and are known for what they do. Trying to break out in the market I would have to do something different. A reason why they'd pick my business over someone else. I need to stand out. Can just be another guy with a Skidder and chainsaw. I'm sure there lots that would do it cheaper and faster with more help than I could offer. But that's why thinking about having my own niche of the industry up here would be a must.


Make some calls to the mills. You might be surprised. I was about 4 years ago. Nobody wants to handcut big timber anymore. Thats the niche!


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## NateleeWi (Dec 13, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> You could wear a loin cloth and sing Bee Gee's songs while felling too. Doesn't mean you'll get any more business or make enough money to survive doing it.


Around me it does matter. People live a certain way We are traditional and most people would rather have a local boy come in and charge more and take longer as long as they take care with the land. I get brainerd ain't that far away but in towns of less than a thousand people how you conduct business matters. But I think I will sing bee gees. That sounds better than the abba I've been singing.


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## NateleeWi (Dec 13, 2015)

Still want to do it the old way but the wife did mention getting a tractor and a farmi winch or have someone build me a forwarding trailer with an a frame to still do the smaller scale thing. I do not want a skidder or large forwarder. I actually live next to and worked at prentice forestry equipment which is now cat so have seen all these machines come through and not a damn one is sold even remotely close. Most people are using 80s skidders and harvesters and just making a mess of a piece of paradise.


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## chucker (Dec 13, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Around me it does matter. People live a certain way We are traditional and most people would rather have a local boy come in and charge more and take longer as long as they take care with the land. I get brainerd ain't that far away but in towns of less than a thousand people how you conduct business matters. But I think I will sing bee gees. That sounds better than the abba I've been singing.


brainerd, is not to far away and there is a space for "low impact loggers" as well smaller equipment/horse's which ever you choose has it's ups and downs like all things! think of what you want and go for it! fast pace high production is not for the small land owner looking to have their forest product harvested this way! speaking for myself as a small lot, low impact logger that keeps busy all year tells me its out there, it's just up to you to find it an make it work!!!!! slow and easy at first to build a rep. is the best salesman to get the work done by show. good luck in you venture!


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Still want to do it the old way but the wife did mention getting a tractor and a farmi winch or have someone build me a forwarding trailer with an a frame to still do the smaller scale thing. I do not want a skidder or large forwarder. I actually live next to and worked at prentice forestry equipment which is now cat so have seen all these machines come through and not a damn one is sold even remotely close. Most people are using 80s skidders and harvesters and just making a mess of a piece of paradise.



That last sentence disturbs me and gives all loggers a bad name. It is what the anti-logging folks say and is just not true. Low impact logging is a misnomer to begin with. As stated in an earlier bit, an unthinking logger can make an impact no matter what he/she uses. Let's start with the falling. To be "low Impact" or I call it a good logger, you have to be able to fall trees directionally and not beat up/break/scar any leave trees. Are you able to do that? 

Next is the skidding. Can you figure out where to skid logs and cause the least amount of damage? Hopefully, you have directionally felled the trees so you can pull them out with the least amount of damage. Can you keep from rutting and tearing things up? A forwarder can do a nice job and run on top of the slash, but it has to go straight.
A good operator can do an excellent, "low impact" job on a D-9 with a humongus blade on the front. I've seen that done. A poor operator can't even get around without ripping things up on a small Kubota, or ATV or small skidder. It takes experience and skill. 

Then we have hauling. This used to drive me crazy in Wisconsin. Wisconsin log trucks are not our nice, built for the mountains piggy back style trucks. Wisconsin log trucks are basically flat beds with racks on them. They take 40 acres to turn around in. To me, that's not low impact, but I am spoiled by our PNW style of small landings. Equipment here can work on a road turnout--landing and loading logs on a very small piece of ground. A huge landing is not low impact. 

Logging "looks" bad. There's ways to make the final product more pleasant to the eye but that is an additional cost. Logging mimics natural disturbances and those do not look like city parks. Out here, a season of brush growth makes it "look" better. How the area looks does not necessarily equate to how healthy the land is, and people just don't get that. That's the problem with clearcuts. They may be sound forestry, but they "look" bad and therefore must be bad.

Rant over.


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

Oh, and what is your logging experience? Have you worked in the industry?


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

Nate, I was just saying that being different in and of itself isn't necessarily going to get you the business. I bought a tractor and a Wallenstein winch this year because the way I want my woods thinned/harvested isn't commercially viable and I too don't want big machinery in my woods. My neighbor's place was high graded 2 winters ago, and what they left will never be worth anything for another 60-80 years, if ever. They left the trash standing to choke out the regen, so the trees that will grow big from the open canopy are all junk.

Being small and low impact is a great option for people who want habitat work done for deer hunting, grouse, etc. I wish you the best!


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## Gologit (Dec 13, 2015)

Low impact logging means different things to different people. To those that don't have a lot of experience or any real knowledge about logging it might be an unrealistic mental image of the land being perfectly healed and groomed and looking like a city park as soon as the job is done. That doesn't happen.
Even low impact logging...however you define it...is going to create some environmental disturbance. People with no logging experience will create more damage than they'd planned on.


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> Nate, I was just saying that being different in and of itself isn't necessarily going to get you the business. I bought a tractor and a Wallenstein winch this year because the way I want my woods thinned/harvested isn't commercially viable and I too don't want big machinery in my woods. My neighbor's place was high graded 2 winters ago, and what they left will never be worth anything for another 60-80 years, if ever. They left the trash standing to choke out the regen, so the trees that will grow big from the open canopy are all junk.
> 
> Being small and low impact is a great option for people who want habitat work done for deer hunting, grouse, etc. I wish you the best!



Being small and "low impact" and cutting for habitat work does not mean it will look like a park or all tidy and neat. You still have to deal with the Time Is Money aspect and can't spend a lot of time dinking around to make things "look" nice if you plan to make a profit. 

You get the logging job that you let happen. Your neighbors maybe should have hired a reputable forester.


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

I consider the work these guys did as about as nice as it gets. BEFORE they started cutting, skid trails and road locations were flagged in. We had a meeting and explained what was wanted, and they explained how they would do it. This unit was along the second busiest forest road in the area. It is one of the main touristy routes to Mt St Helens. We all agreed that we wanted it to look as nice as possible. 

The logging company was one of the bigger ones but sent in a very experienced small group of guys. I'd worked a lot with their bullbuck and bribed him with cookies in the past. He'd tried  to kill me by dropping a tree where I had been standing in the past--I spent a day on crutches and lots more hobbling around after that. Back to the topic, these guys wanted to make things work and also make money. They did. Yup, you could see the slash and the skid trails afterwards. The contract required that the skid trails be scarified afterwards so these guys planned everything in advance--dropping trees so the limbs would be on the trails, leaving trees for rub trees--you name it, they had the experience and the skill and I was very pleased with it all. They could have put in a feller buncher, but we'd knocked heads in the past with damage done from whole tree skidding, so they hand fell the unit.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

Habitat guys pay good money to not have it look like a park. Parks are wildlife deserts.


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

Tell me, would you pay a logger enough for the logger to make a profit to make habitat? Is it possible to work full time, make equipment payments and still be in the black by only doing habitat projects? 

What did you do with the merch timber? Can you support yourself by doing that kind of work?


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

I haven't done any of it, but I know several rich hunters who just want the mature trees gone so that it'll regen into habitat. Getting paid isn't even a concern for them. So free tracts have to be worth something.

I'm not a logger, have no intention of becoming a logger, and have no intention of making a living full time doing habitat work. I do happen to know people who do just that though.


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## 1270d (Dec 13, 2015)

I have some knowledge of the area around Brainerd. A lot of it is even age management type wood. Jack pine, aspen, white birch. The oak is ugly in most places that I have been. 

Nothing wrong with not having merch timber for 70 years.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

1270d said:


> Nothing wrong with not having merch timber for 70 years.



They would've been better off clear cutting with what they left. That's my only issue with it. Other than dropping tops in some of my trees with the hot saw.  No buffer on my lot line, they cut right to the very edge.

As for the pine and such. We have a lot of private land which was logged in the 70's and 80's, then planted with red pine and sold for hunting. Those stands are over mature now and need thinning to be useful for wildlife again. I know of quite a few guys looking to have those trees taken out, some of them don't care if they get paid as long as the logger puts in some new trails, pushes the stumps out for food plots, and stays out of areas they've left as sanctuaries.

It's not 7 months worth of work for a crew of 8 with big expensive machinery, but it's enough to keep a couple guys busy if they wanted to.


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## bitzer (Dec 13, 2015)

Great posts miss p and Bob. I think the op has a romantic idea of what a working woods is. Also when you do a shelter wood cut believe me you'll have more critters than you know what to do with. Growth too. Just sounds like inexperience talking. Promoting sunlight promotes growth. The toughest jobs to cut are selective, but they look the most pleasing. If done wrong they can screw up a woods even if it doesn't seem like it at first glance. Like releasing shade species that will take over. Maple/beech woods are a case in point. There used to be oak in there, they just cut it all out, but didn't open the canopy enough to release oaks. 

By the way miss P a loader truck with pup can have some pretty tight landings. Usually consists of a back in tho. I know what yer saying.


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## Gologit (Dec 13, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> Parks are wildlife deserts.



Not in every case. I can think of three parks...given time I could probably think of more...that are wildlife _havens. _All three parks belong to land trusts or county agencies. The parks are managed for multi-use...recreation, timber production, and wildlife and they've been very successful at creating and maintaining a good balance between the three.
You're on the outside looking in. Spending more time actually working with the management side of a multi-use park might do you some good.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

The parks in reference were the clean floor "neat" looking manicured lawn type.

I'm aware of an atv park that had a timber harvest about 4 years ago, and that's just one of the ones I've been to.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

Red upper right is my lot, which has 80% or better canopy and needs thinning. Area to the left with the blue dotted lines is the neighbor's place that was cut 2 winters ago.

They left crooked, split, rotten, and small trees in clumps along the outside edges of where the harvester ran. Sadly, I didn't get any pictures when there was snow to show how they just worked around the junk. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure all they're going to get regenerated will be red maple. Having been in there this past fall, that's what's growing in the openings so far, and will only get faster next year.

To their credit, they left all the slash.

They also said they wanted to remove more, but the swamp to the South of my lot that they were accessing through was getting soft and they feared being left stranded. There's roughly 15 acres of the tract to the North they didn't get into.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

This is the atv park that was harvested. Lots of straight young trees with space around them, and a few junker's that I would've whacked.


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## slowp (Dec 13, 2015)

You do know that at least in these parts, deformed, rotten, broken top trees are the ones chosen to leave in place for wildlife. Those would be the trees that would turn into snags sooner naturally--another way to mimic nature. We also used to leave clumps of trees for wildlife. Clumps hold up better in the winds and are also easier to yard around than single trees scattered here and there, if the clumps are located in appropriate places by folks who know about yarding. We'd work with the loggers on that one and sometimes move the clump--black out one group and replace it with a better located clump. 

You'd probably not realize that the clearcut by a large landowner here did not leave the trees for a seed source. They are only for wildlife. The next crop of trees was planted.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 13, 2015)

We have primarily stump sprout or root system regen: aspen, oak, maple, birch, basswood, ash.

The neighbor's lot is roughly 10% of the block (boxed in by 2 county roads and a lake). There's no shortage of seed either.

I've been trying to find the pics I took of his place that spring from the ground, but I think they're still on my old phone. The aerial was taken this fall right before leaf turn in late September or early October. I widened my driveway about 60% after that shot was taken by the google folks.


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## bitzer (Dec 14, 2015)

You're basically working off of one patch of timber you've seen logged. The loggers may have had good intent or not. Did your neighbor have more than one company look at it prior? Sometimes the edge trees are left cuz you don't know what the neighbors reaction to dropping one over the line mite be.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 14, 2015)

I haven't spoken to the guy about the logging. He's got another 60 on the other side of the lake with his cabin and only bought the parcel next to mine for hunting/investment. I've got a good relationship with my Southern neighbor and he needed my help with a trespasser in deer season last month, so I got a look at the place better when I went to assist. Those two guys have a hunting rights swap, so my South neighbor gets his place for rifle season, and his kids get my South neighbor's place for archery.

I'm not the most well versed on logging on this forum, that's for sure. But I have read a lot of info on the subject and had numerous discussions with timber managers and forestry experts (DNR forestry, County lands supervisor who used to work for Sappi, and another guy who worked for the Nature Conservancy). I still have a lot to learn.

What was left behind was abandoned, or avoided because it was worthless per my neighbor who granted them access. They scalped right up to my survey markers. They also used my land for a latrine. It's a good thing I found them on their way out instead of while working. I probably would've soured that relationship over the trespassing. My land is posted, and both neighbors know it.


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## slowp (Dec 14, 2015)

Why does it matter that they left trees? Why should you care? Since trees sprout from stumps, it hurts nothing, and gives the tweetybirds something to perch in. 

Why not add that you stayed in a Holiday Inn also?


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## Jim Timber (Dec 14, 2015)

Why I care is because I was hoping to buy those parcels some day. Now I don't want it.

You might want to take a look at my thread in the photo's section about my swamp road. It looks a little different than the last time you tried mocking me.


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## Gologit (Dec 14, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> They also used my land for a latrine.



Really? They peed and pooped on your side of the line? The bastards. 
Next time maybe you can insist that they drag a Porta Potty around the woods with them. Let us know how that works out, okay?


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## Jim Timber (Dec 14, 2015)

Trespassing is trespassing. If you don't own it, stay the eff out!


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## chucker (Dec 14, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> Trespassing is trespassing. If you don't own it, stay the eff out!


a socialist state like California has an open boarder for trespassers jim, so they don't under stand the word or meaning of "NO TRESSPASSING" as well as they probably don't own a danged thing that's worth protecting ...... ?? perhaps one day it really will slide off into the great blue abyss .......


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## Jim Timber (Dec 14, 2015)

Funny thing is, they had plenty of trees to pee on before they removed all of them from the neighbor's lot.

It was a singular event, there's nothing left worth moving equipment in to go back for (not likely to happen again), so I let it go.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 14, 2015)

NateleeWi said:


> Thanks everyone. Yeah. I'm still not sure. You have to understand that up here logging is huge and most companies have reps and are known for what they do. Trying to break out in the market I would have to do something different. A reason why they'd pick my business over someone else. I need to stand out. Can just be another guy with a Skidder and chainsaw. I'm sure there lots that would do it cheaper and faster with more help than I could offer. But that's why thinking about having my own niche of the industry up here would be a must.




So, 7 years ago maybe a little longer I took the plunge and started logging, this was in 2008 timber prices where in the toilet, Hel they where in an overfull septic tank waiting on a well fare check to get pumped out...

Anyway everybody told me that there was no money in logging, I'd be a fool, etc. Granted at the time it was more of hobby that happened to make some ok cash to buy more crap I still don't need.

Like yerself I considered going with horses, still think about it at times, also thought I could build a short dog skidder for cheap in reality I had lots of dreams and little time or money to pull any of them off, so I nearly stole an old tractor from a friend for $300 and a bottle of whisky, spent a few weeks making it go and work properly (and mostly safely... mostly...) built up a simple arch and away I went. 

But it was ****ing slow, took 5-6 weekends of brutal ass kicking work to make up one load of logs, something had to change.

So I mortgaged the house and bought myself a skidder about 3 years ago, its not big, just under 12k, not much bigger foot print then your average pickup truck, but it moves the wood. Now I can reliably bring in 1-2 loads a weekend vs 5-6 weeks for one load, and with a small amount of luck and lack of anything important breaking I'll be full time logging within a year or so.

Today I like to think I've built a reputation for the guy that can do a small job and still make money at it, without being a jerk in the process, its a slow climb but its a constant and rewarding climb. 

Also I do my damndest to leave good looking sites, plan my trails to avoid soft spots, play nice with the neighbors, use existing trails when available, (if they aren't already shitty), never leave a tree hung up if I can avoid it, avoid barking leave trees when possible.

One last thing that a horsey can't do is push brush, leaving the brush laying around is fine in some places, but others they want a pile so they can burn it at first chance, pony's will not push...

Anyway what I'm gettin at in my long winded rendition is that get what you think your going to be comfortable with, and make it work, do a good job and your work will speak for you, the Hel with what the competition has to say about it, make money at it and leave happy landowners the rest is just details.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 14, 2015)

One last perk for a skidder is that you can hide behind the tires to urinate, Pooing usually involves elaborate stances and large stumps in strategic locations... pooing in the woods is best left to the deer...

And no bears don't poo in the woods they use the roads... its like a handicap stall for wildlife.


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## chucker (Dec 14, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> One last perk for a skidder is that you can hide behind the tires to urinate, Pooing usually involves elaborate stances and large stumps in strategic locations... pooing in the woods is best left to the deer...
> 
> And no bears don't poo in the woods they use the roads... its like a handicap stall for wildlife.


lol try it on a round rock with it being covered with an ice sheet no wider than a footing stance! makes for a good laugh when watching the ravens "pickin chit with the crows"........ or the chitter trying to do the job???? lol


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## northmanlogging (Dec 14, 2015)

all the more reason to wear calk boots, sure not to slip and fall in, got story about a cousin... well it should be two stories but its the same cousin just 2 different years in nearly the same location.


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## chucker (Dec 14, 2015)

what people wont do when bored? lol stay dry northy, were not.


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## bitzer (Dec 15, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> Why I care is because I was hoping to buy those parcels some day. Now I don't want it.
> 
> You might want to take a look at my thread in the photo's section about my swamp road. It looks a little different than the last time you tried mocking me.


The thing is you're assuming the loggers are to blame. Maybe the land owner demanded max dollar. Maybe the merch timber was over ripe and needed to come off and there wasn't much worth a dam left cuz it hadn't been managed for so long. Lots of scenarios here that you could be unaware of. Every woods has its own prescription and reason for being cut.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 15, 2015)

Sometimes the LO wants it ravaged and left, don't want to pay for cleanup, just want the money and doesn't care how they get it. In reality that is pretty much what most LO's want when they do log, money... After all that is the purpose of having all those nice trees, otherwise they would clear it and plant horses or something.


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2015)

Northman, had you worked in logging before? I think that's important here.


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2015)

Jim Timber said:


> Trespassing is trespassing. If you don't own it, stay the eff out!



And do not covet thy neighbor's land.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 15, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Every woods has its own prescription and reason for being cut.



My issue isn't with what they took, but what they left. This parcel would be better off being fully clear cut than how they left it, and that was confirmed by a forestry professor who's also seen it from the ground (and happens to be another neighbor). 

Slowp, when you get into the New Testament, it says be nice to people even if you disagree with them. Just say'n. Since you're not my mother, you can also stop telling me what to do. Thanks!


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## NateleeWi (Dec 15, 2015)

Thanks for all the input. Honestly I've been OTR trucking this last week and haven't had time to read everything but after a little math I figured out conservatively that using a tractor with a a winch I would come out ahead annually but in the sense of accomplishment. Idk. But I am excited to see in the next year where I'll end up. What my choices will be and truly either way doing this ill still make more than I am now and will enjoy work immensely more


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2015)

Some pictures taken today. I can't say if this is a second or third entry. I suspect a third because it is easy to access. This was logged about a year ago. It was cut with a feller buncher. It hasn't been planted yet. They left hemlocks for wildlife trees, and some have blown down where they become "down woody debris" and supply habitat for little critters whilst rotting and supplying nutrients to the soil. The loggers made a few snags with their machine. Note the cedar that is slabbed off.



Here is a clump. I'm not sure if it is a zag in the boundary or a clump left for wildlife, but trees have not blown over in it.




They took a cull tree and made it into a snag.




Nearby, we walk by an older stand where they left a few wildlife trees here and there.




This is a tree farm, but I have seen deer, owls, hawks and the Demon Dog usually flushes up a grouse. There are elk tracks, but I've never seen the elk. On down the road there is a unit that had the cedar munched on big time. Yes, they had tubed the seedlings. The company replanted amongst the cedar with Doug-fir which is less tasty to deer and elk. This year I noticed that some of the surviving cedar has caught up to the Doug-fir in growth and seems to be coming out of the shock of being munched on.
The roadside has had the Scotch Broom sprayed but there are a few surviving twigs of it. 

I expect they'll replant the first cutting unit this spring. I'm curious what it will be planted with. If it is a third entry, I'd put in some alder seedlings--maybe interplant that with conifer seedlings.


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## 1270d (Dec 15, 2015)

slowp said:


> I'd put in some alder seedlings--maybe interplant that with conifer seedlings.




How come? Does the soil need a break?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 15, 2015)

Wow lots of stuff...

Yes I did do some logging before striking out on my own, teenage years helping my uncle. Cat arch, and skidder logging.

Alder is a nitrogen fixer, helps rebuild the soil fer the money trees.

And to no one inparticular, coveting thy neighbors property is just rude, and verboten in Norse mythology as well, you wan't it make an offer if not shut up move on or start a small neighborly war over it. Its not your dirt not your decisions, and not your timber to manage.

Done enough cutting trees over lawsuits involving "the view" to know there are no winners in that feild


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## Jim Timber (Dec 15, 2015)

Who said anything about coveting it? Wanting to buy it in the past and not wanting to buy it now is all that was said.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 15, 2015)

wanting to buy is synonymous with coveting... desire to own what is not yours and not available.


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2015)

1270d said:


> How come? Does the soil need a break?



Red Alder is a good thing. It used to be considered a weed. It will seed in on its own at this elevation, but things can be speeded up by planting it. Like Northman said, it is a nitrogen fixer. A guy who bought a stump farm near that unit planted Doug-fir. It started turning yellow. This spring he was interplanting with alder and we are waiting to see if it helps. 

The same company actually did plant alder in another clearcut. It is doing well.


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## Jim Timber (Dec 15, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> wanting to buy is synonymous with coveting... desire to own what is not yours and not available.



Webster's would disagree with your definition. To yearn for, or lust after something is coveting. I never yearned after that parcel, nor mine for that matter. I bought a tiny lot next to it and made an offer which was accepted. There was all of about 5 weeks between those two events. No time to lust. 

I want to buy out the whole block, but that doesn't mean I covet it.  I'm content with my acreage, but not looking at future possibilities is rather narrow sighted. I have expressed an interest in buying out my South neighbor's land should he decide to sell. I guess I should go to confession?


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## 1270d (Dec 15, 2015)

slowp said:


> Red Alder is a good thing. It used to be considered a weed. It will seed in on its own at this elevation, but things can be speeded up by planting it. Like Northman said, it is a nitrogen fixer. A guy who bought a stump farm near that unit planted Doug-fir. It started turning yellow. This spring he was interplanting with alder and we are waiting to see if it helps.
> 
> The same company actually did plant alder in another clearcut. It is doing well.



I believe it is the same with our northern hardwood stands. Basswood is good for nitrogen and shouldnt be eliminated from a stand. Does this effect come from the decomposing leaves? I appreciate the enlightenment.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 15, 2015)

Alder is a legume from what I've been told, not a forester or ologist by any means, so it fixes nitrogen in its root system, much like beans and clover.

Locust will do the same thing, and we get some around here, probably planted by pioneers lookin for decent fence posts... probably didn't do any readin about cedar...


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## slowp (Dec 15, 2015)

Hmmm, I'm a learnin' neat stuff. Here's the stuff that likes alder and does the nitrogen bit. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankia


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## 2dogs (Dec 16, 2015)

Patty those are nice pics you posted. Do you know what the forest consisted of before logging? Also, were there Indians there before logging?

Scotch Broom?! Kill it! Kill it with fire!!


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## slowp (Dec 16, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Patty those are nice pics you posted. Do you know what the forest consisted of before logging? Also, were there Indians there before logging?
> 
> Scotch Broom?! Kill it! Kill it with fire!!



The Cowlitz tribe hung out in this area. There is a little chunk of "reservation" somewhere near where I live. I'm not sure what the story is on that. They had quite a trail system over the mountains where they traded with the Yakamas. Those trails are now official trails where they aren't roads. I'm thinking the forest was Western Red Cedar, Doug-fir and hemlock with the usual maples scattered about. There are a few big stumps in there--nothing huge though. 

There is some kind of logging going on hot and heavy on another nearby chunk of land owned by the same landowner. I saw a nice load of alder going down the road. I'll have to go in on a weekend with my bicycle and go see what is going on. I had 6 loaded log trucks go by in about an hour from that spot. They've either got a big deck or are hitting it hard.


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## dancan (Dec 18, 2015)

Back to logging with oxen or horses , I did a service call this week , was talking to the chap while working on his truck , his uncle logged with horses many years back , one day while hitching a haul his cutting partner started a saw to top a log , the horses got spooked and bolted , he lost 2 fingers when the chain cinched tight .
Oxen on the other hand are slower but they don't know fear .


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## Cycledude (Jan 4, 2016)

Amish loggers , I wonder how much timber they actually cut ?


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## Gologit (Jan 4, 2016)

Cycledude said:


> Amish loggers , I wonder how much timber they actually cut ?



Enough.


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## bitzer (Jan 5, 2016)

Cycledude said:


> Amish loggers , I wonder how much timber they actually cut ?


The thing is when they cut timber the whole village shows up. I've seen em in action. Fricken 90 degrees in long sleeves and pants with their hats on. They can use power saws tho. Thats where the modern conviences ended for them. I know of amish that run harvesters and forwarders. I think they can't own them tho.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 6, 2016)

different rules for different communities, the Elders decide what is good and what is bad, constantly evolves. Some have phones, some only have one phone per village etc. From what I've heard its supposed to be what can hurt or benefit a community... so cars mean no walking and talking face to face with neighbors, etc.


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## bitzer (Jan 6, 2016)

Do you guys have any substantial populations out there? We have an area called Amish country. I honestly don't know much about em. Its fun talkin to em tho. One told me once that what I do is a lot of work. Meaning cutting/skidding alone. I thought that was funny. Amish callin english a hard worker.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 7, 2016)

More and more Mennonites, but no "Amish" (though the Amish would consider themself's Mennonites). 

They meat at a Grange down bellow in the biggish town, and there are a handfull of CSA's they run.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 7, 2016)

To be honest the whole thing is fascinating, and I think it would be fun to spend a year or so with some hard core amish just learning how they do things with armstrong power, and the whole community thing is pretty awesome. Granted all that praying and singular god thing isn't my cup of tea.


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## bitzer (Jan 7, 2016)

Its funny when you get to talkin to em. I get a kick out of it.


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## Gologit (Jan 7, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> More and more Mennonites, but no "Amish" (though the Amish would consider themself's Mennonites).
> 
> They meat at a Grange down bellow in the biggish town, and there are a handfull of CSA's they run.



There is a large Mennonite population in the northern Sacramento Valley. A lot of them are farmers but there are quite a few that have logging trucks too.
I've worked with some of them for many years and I've found that they're one of the most honest, industrious, and hardworking group of people that I've ever seen. They have a work ethic that is beyond compare.
They tend to be clannish but I think that's a natural response to many years of poor treatment and ridicule by people who don't really understand them.
If you're straight with them they'll be straight with you. Once they know you're alright they're just as personable as anybody. I've never had a Mennonite truck on a job that I had any problem with.


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