# Why In Spanish?



## lxt (Dec 18, 2007)

Ok, I dont want this to be a bash on immigrants or anything, BUT..... Im reading this months TCIA Mag & have noticed in past Mag`s along with ISA publications that it would seem they want you to learn spanish!!

their training materials are in spanish & they make a big whoop dee doo about new materials coming out in spanish!!!! So heres my problem!!

Whats sad is Both entities have talked about illegal immigration reform, But both pander to make them comfortable in our work place....can you say membership dues?


#1. why dont they learn english? their in America!!

#2. Why should I learn spanish to communicate to a group of people who by their being here & working for peanuts(whole families in tree care) undermine the very trade I love, respect & has provided for me & mine?

#3. If their Illegal send em back, companies in my area that are using "mexicans" know they can pay em little & love that fact!! & are making large profit from it.

#3. Illegals know what they are doing & got us by the ya know what!! their kinda like a mobile walmart.....

#4. our trade is going backwards in the laboring sense of things, what 19-20+yr old is going to come work for a company starting off at $7.50-$8.00hr?? our illegal counterpart will!!, many of them are in their 30`s or older this wont help in future training!! We need that 19-20yr old bracket to want to learn instead we drive them to search for other job/career opportunities.

Illegal Immigration has in some parts of this country put a hurtin on us & will make into all areas if let go!! wages will spiral downward & with the housing market on bust people are gonna want cheap!!!

I dont feel bad for em!! GO HOME!! yes they work hard/cheap but takes much longer, they are a liability in the work sense yeah they`ll do it!! with not a clue as to the proper way, they are a financial liability!! driving down wages & paid exclusively in cash so as to stay under the radar.

Did TCIA & ISA think this was a good idea? both should be ashamed! targeting a group of people who`s majority are here ILLEGALLY & then have the stones to try to train them by having me learn their language!!

Learn English, become Legal Citizens if not GO HOME!!! there are many other things I could rant on about pertaining to this situation but just wandered why the best sources of information for tree care would support & enhance this group of people whom are destroying the American Dream & know it?

I do apologize if I offended anyone, this may be a sensitive topic to some, Not Me!!! the answer to me is simple, I hate paying my own taxes, healthcare, pension, education expenses(daughter) & just plain out right making a living!!! let alone have to pay for illegals to have the same when they didnt earn it!!! why should this be put on my/Americas shoulders?



LXT....................


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## mckeetree (Dec 18, 2007)

It shouldn't be put on Americas shoulders and anybody that is offended by your post needs to be sent back to Mexico with them.


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## Job Corps Tree (Dec 18, 2007)

*Why in Spanish*

I do agree with your Post. I did not go to Mexico to work they came here. Had I gone to Mexico City to get a job I would have had to learn Spanish just to get by. I have worked with some real good Mexican climbers, but with the safety issues involved we must be able to talk to each other. 
No ablay Espagnol. HE## no I have enough trouble with English and TREE


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 18, 2007)

The situation is what it is. Blame can be given to many and more. However, to make good information available to those in our business, legal or otherwise, is to improve the quality of the work our client base receives. 

A positive way to spin this: As all workers learn more about arboriculture, they tend to value their added intelligence and come to expect a better wage for their work. This, in turn, leads to less "cheap labor" and thus, a less likely atmosphere where unbelievably low underbidding can take place.

I'm in Austin, Texas so, trust me, I'm in the middle of the scene cited in the original post. It is terrible, but one has to hope for a good outcome, ultimately.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 18, 2007)

*safety first*

Strictly from a safety point of view, I can see the method of their(TCIA/ISA)madness. It is a way to bring up the safety awareness to all workers in the industry, thereby lowering the reported accidents, thereby reducing OUR insurance rates.

On a side note, a friend who ownes a large tree co which does employ some "questionable status" immigrants, always tells me how much better the USA would be without unions. (he knows I am a Union guy and loves to bust my stones) His example is how Dubai is building all these great things by using cheap labor from other countries. 

So the question for me is; which is better, illegal workers or union workers?

This is a good thread don't let it turn into a why illegals are bad thread, there is already one of those on the OT forum...........


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## lxt (Dec 18, 2007)

I have worked Union & Non Union the thing to me is this: you will always have that $20hr man who knows he is protected & does enough to get by, however is that any worse than the CEO who runs the company in the red makes in the high 6 figures plus & gets a million dollar severance pay when he leaves?

I feel as long as you do your job give a fair days work & do it professionally there should be no problems, in our biz some days you should make more & other days your not worth your wage it all averages out(ideally).

A good company that treats its workers right then I feel no union is needed, however there are alot of garbage companies that workers need the representation in too.

as far as the Illegal Immigrants go!! why do they need to be given information for any job? not just arborculture!! why should they get a chance at a good paying job? they are Illegal!! Send them Back!!

As far as insurance rates go why are they higher pertaining to this situation? Sorry I have to pay for health care, etc.. & now for them too? NO WAY!! you not from here & your here Illegally minimum treatment followed by deportation!!

As far as the ISA & TCIA promoting spanish training aides I have no problem with this, target mexico!! In the borders of the USA speak english or dont work! simple, you & I and many other Americans work hard for what we have some dont(shame on them) & to know that Illegals can enjoy all the things I have to pay for just because of what they are is ridiculous!!

It seems that pandering to this sect of people is almost more of a law than what the real law is, I dont know about anyone else, SORRY you shouldnt be here unless you did it legally, Unions, Politicians, & many other entities that need votes or members just want them for the money they can get out of em, plain & simple.

My thought, Send em back!!, you had a child here Illegally it goes back at 18 it can come here but not you untill done so legally!! you work here No more & employers should have the S%^T fined out of them for hiring them. English is required!! cant speak It ? too bad!! spanish dont work here!

this may all seem harsh but wait till you go down the street & look at the job you bid days ago being done by spanish speaking Illegal`s, or your child doesnt get the college grant money cause Rico`s kid got it do to dads Illegal minority status, sorry sir health care, car ins., w.comp, etc... has doubled this year....................due to this problem!! were gonna PAY


LXT...........


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## BostonBull (Dec 18, 2007)

I think illegal immigrants should be gone!

I work with many immigrants from Guatemala. They are GREAT workers and AWEOME people! They came here, paid thier dues, work hard, pay taxes, and speak and CONTINUE to LEARN the ENGLISH language. Great in my book!

As for unions......hahahahahahaha!! I was in a Union for 3 years. I was on the E Board, I was the safety supervisor for 3000+ employees. 
I came from a PRODUCTION contractor, and made my way into the utility union. Utility unoins are not for me, or any other balls to the wall workers. Its just not my cup of tea. Sure there were times we worked hard, and definately knew we earned a check, but they were few and far between.

Are unions good for america? Sure I think they have to be patrolled/governed better, just like our borders.


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## BostonBull (Dec 18, 2007)

Oh yeah I almost forgot...........this thread will be OUT OF CONTROL by the end of page two. opcorn:


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## John464 (Dec 18, 2007)

I am glad they have both languages. Not offended by your post, but I must say without the two languages it would make it harder to teach safety to my many(all legal) latino decent employees. NOTE: spanish is not just for mexicans.

Without the work ethic latino's bring to my workforce I would be getting less done at a higher cost. These guys do not take entended breaks beyond their 1 hour lunch and do not go to sleep in my trucks like some of those gringo's Ive had.



FACT: Do you know Davey Tree, a multi-million dollar company, has over 75% of it's employees of latino decent? 

My company has about a 50-50 split of americans and latino's. But I see in the future the latino may become the better man for the job. All but very few of my brush draggers speak and read english. The others that arent too fluent. The spanish caution signs on my chipper, coupled with my 4 years in college of spanish help keep them safe. Maybe I will have 75% latino also, who knows? I am business and will follow the path needed to stay on top.

Take a look at the bigger co.'s and see what they are doing to succeed, one step to succes may be hiring the right people for the job. This is what it comes down to, reliable, loyal, and fair employees. I dont care what color or race they are. I am just lucky to have great help!

Im all for them to stay in a documented way and have adopted VISAs for them so they can.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

John464 said:


> I am glad they have both languages. Not offended by your post, but I must say without the two languages it would make it harder to teach safety to my many(all legal) latino decent employees. NOTE: spanish is not just for mexicans.
> 
> Without the work ethic latino's bring to my workforce I would be getting less done at a higher cost. These guys do not take entended breaks beyond their 1 hour lunch and do not go to sleep in my trucks like some of those gringo's Ive had.
> 
> ...


Well it sounds like you are on the fast track to
success probably the most paid for people are going
to be bilingual. All because greed to pay fair American wages
have ruined the American dream I hope you enjoy the success
at the cost of your children and grand children.


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## John464 (Dec 18, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Well it sounds like you are on the fast track to
> success probably the most paid for people are going
> to be bilingual. All because greed to pay fair American wages
> have ruined the American dream I hope you enjoy the success
> at the cost of your children and grand children.




Where did you read my Latino's get paid less for the same job than an american counterpart? Believe it or not they normally get paid more, because they earn their right to the higher wages. I have latino's making over $20 and have been with me many years and frankly the only white guys making that or more either certified arborists, foreman, or salesman. The american ground guys never have lasted long enough to earn that kind of pay. I pay well for hard workers. Again I could care less if they are america, asian, itlalian, mexican. Color nor race means nothing to mean. A good employee is of uptmost concern.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

2nd paragraph


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## John464 (Dec 18, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> 2nd paragraph


Clarification:
they COST me less money by not stealing from me, showing up on time, and doing things behind my back that they shouldnt be doing, and work harder. My expense is less. not their wages. 

Hope that clears it up


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## (WLL) (Dec 18, 2007)

iv got nothing nice to say. i did give green rep to who i support on this matter. i feel your pain and i will back you up to the end! *UNITED WE STAND*


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

John464 said:


> Clarification:
> they COST me less money by not stealing from me, showing up on time, and doing things behind my back that they shouldnt be doing, and work harder. My expense is less. not their wages.
> 
> Hope that clears it up



Oh so you like complete control and someone that will 
use up their back and then who pays for the meds?
I have worked around them and they won't outwork
me of course I wont work for what they do and can't
live fifteen deep.


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## lxt (Dec 18, 2007)

Look, if their legally here & can speak ENGLISH!!! Fine. why should I have to speak spanish? or anyone here in the states, if you wish to be bilingual I dont knock that, it is an accomplishment. But to have to for training or just communicating to an employee, NO WAY! thats absurd. 


As far as Davey Tree goes that may be true, but did you notice that Davey`s prescence here in the easten states has greatly diminished, out in CA yep their boomin, canada too, Davey is on the verge of loosing their contracts in W.Pa to Lewis, Asplundh & Nelson. Nelson Tree was trimming right in front of their Kent office this summer. In this area latino workers dont go over well & your company will be looked down upon, those that use Illegals are hired for the budget wary cheap lowely profit mongoring go out of biz in 3-5yr general contractors(take the $$ & run)

John if your guys are Legal & good workers, Great!! nothing wrong with that I dont have a prejudice for latinos, mexicans or people of spanish speaking descent, Just Illegal Immigrants......get rid of em!!

But I still think they should have to know english & well, not just yes, no or I & to want me to learn spanish for the reasons you stated....just to communicate thats crazy!!

they wanted the job right? how did they fill out their application? if they cant speak it then they cant read or write it I would assume. traffic signs how do they know, when driving your vehicles & Mr. Policeman pulls em over is he suppose to know spanish too? hows he communicate with em?, how do the Home owners talk to em? NOPE..no speak english GO HOME!!!

LXT...........


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## (WLL) (Dec 18, 2007)

if you live in America and run an alien tree circus you are a hack. if you think you are on top and need anything more than a living you are greedy jack!! I WORK FOR A LIVING NOT A FORTUNE & I SUPPORT AMERICANS NOT ALIENS get out of the country!!! *my fore fathers fought to get here and i will fight to keep it*


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## reachtreeservi (Dec 18, 2007)

John464 said:


> Clarification:
> they COST me less money by not stealing from me, showing up on time, and doing things behind my back that they shouldnt be doing, and work harder. My expense is less. not their wages.
> 
> Hope that clears it up



Give it a few years and they'll put you out of business. Hispanic workers don't work any harder than any other worker, they are not more honest,
nor do they have better attendance. 

They do work cheaper, for awhile. Then they start their own companies, take your workers with them and totally cut your throat on bidding in your area. 

End result : You will be out of the business.

If you think you can dispute that, you are not dealing with reality. The greed of the American contractor is what put us in this situation in almost every other trade. 
Just a matter of time before the same happens to tree work.

The illegal immigration problem is the singe largest threat to the American way of life this country has ever faced.
Our entire social infrastructure is being overloaded by these ungrateful , illegal hordes. 

On the American frontier, everybody knew the way to get ahead was to work hard and take care of your own. A lot of people today would do well to relearn that .

I won't work them. I won't work with them. I love this country too much to destroy it , just to make a dollar.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

I think its funny how people using them say their paying them the same
as American wages. While it may be true and they may be legal now they have substantially reduced our wages for decades. I feel the same as some or most I don't have a hate for them as a people but as a standard of living my hackles go up! Being from Texas originally I have seen firsthand what swimmers do to the economy great for law breakers bad for legit biz!


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## John464 (Dec 18, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> if you live in America and run an alien tree circus you are a hack. if you think you are on top and need anything more than a living you are greedy jack!! I WORK FOR A LIVING NOT A FORTUNE & I SUPPORT AMERICANS NOT ALIENS get out of the country!!! *my fore fathers fought to get here and i will fight to keep it*



our forefathers entered this county by way of travel. Travelling to America in hopes of a better life is no different than what foreigners are doing now. If you go back far enough in your family tree you would see your roots are foreign as well. Only exception is the American Indians. Every other race traveled to America at one time. Why should we deny those that wish to LEGALLY enter, the chance that was once provided for our ancestors?

LXT, I am all for getting those who enter illegally out, but if they go by the rules and pay taxes just like everyone else why should they be denied a better life just because they are "mexican"? That my friends is prejudice.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

John464 said:


> our forefathers entered this county by way of travel. Travelling to America in hopes of a better life is no different than what foreigners are doing now. If you go back far enough in your family tree you would see your roots are foreign as well. Only exception is the American Indians. Every other race traveled to America at one time. Why should we deny those that wish to LEGALLY enter, the chance that was once provided for our ancestors?
> 
> LXT, I am all for getting those who enter illegally out, but if they go by the rules and pay taxes just like everyone else why should they be denied a better life just because they are "mexican"? That my friends is prejudice.



Big difference, we conquered this nation we did not have it handed to
us go home remember the Alamo. Ok I reread your post
legals no problem except we should limit the amount and
they need to speak English but we had to fight and conquer
this land it was not provided as you call it.


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## John464 (Dec 18, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok I reread your post
> legals no problem except we should limit the amount and
> they need to speak English but we had to fight and conquer
> this land it was not provided as you call it.



Ok, we agree.


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## coydog (Dec 18, 2007)

Many immigrants that built this country never learned English as fluently as their their native language and many never learned it at all, but they died as American as anyone. It's the second and third generations that grow up with English as their first language that have no trouble speaking and reading it. Lots of Spanish speaking workers here legally would not be able to absorb the training materials let alone pass the arborist exam if it was not available in Spanish, not to mention the invaluable resource to have training material available in both Spanish and English to create a better opportunity to read and write in English. The fact is that America was ,is,and will be shaped by immigrants. Immigants are not un-american. To say that we conquered this nation and did not have it handed to us only displays xenophobic ignorance. America is the land of opportunity. Who do you refer to? Custer? The Trail of Tears? My grandfather signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and fought along side Cherokee indians as well as those that died at the Alamo. I'm proud of that heritage and your post sickens me, you don't deserve to invoke the name of the Alamo, because the philosophy you preach is more akin to that of the mentally challenged national socialist biker gang "The Black Widows " forever chasing Clint Eastwoods character Philo Beddo than anything represented in the US Constitution, "right turn Clyde!"


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## DonnyO (Dec 18, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> Oh yeah I almost forgot...........this thread will be OUT OF CONTROL by the end of page two. opcorn:



can I borrow your crystal ball?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

coydog said:


> Many immigrants that built this country never learned English as fluently as their their native language and many never learned it at all, but they died as American as anyone. It's the second and third generations that grow up with English as their first language that have no trouble speaking and reading it. Lots of Spanish speaking workers here legally would not be able to absorb the training materials let alone pass the arborist exam if it was not available in Spanish, not to mention the invaluable resource to have training material available in both Spanish and English to create a better opportunity to read and write in English. The fact is that America was ,is,and will be shaped by immigrants. Immigants are not un-american. To say that we conquered this nation and did not have it handed to us only displays xenophobic ignorance. America is the land of opportunity. Who do you refer to? Custer? The Trail of Tears? My grandfather signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and fought along side Cherokee indians as well as those that died at the Alamo. I'm proud of that heritage and your post sickens me, you don't deserve to invoke the name of the Alamo, because the philosophy you preach is more akin to that of the mentally challenged national socialist biker gang "The Black Widows " forever chasing Clint Eastwoods character Philo Beddo than anything represented in the US Constitution, "right turn Clyde!"


First off wtf you do not know me or anything about my
heritage. My philosophy is invoked on fact current fact
and fact is they are hurting my legal business so I don't
give one cent if you feel I don't deserve to speak of a 
subject I learned in Texas history class! I am more of
the old there pard are ya gonna pull them pistol's boy
or whistle dixie!


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## juststumps (Dec 18, 2007)

i didn't want to get involved with this,,, but really,,, who are you going to hire?????

i don't know about where the rest of you live,,, but here in this area of NJ,,, kids don't want to work,,, they don't want to learn a trade,,they are to busy playing sports and getting ready to go to college... and i forgot the wii,,,, x-box, sega, and texting on the cell phone.....

in the home of the average $500,000 home price,,, i don't see a lot of people banging down the door at my employer ,,to do tree work !!!!!!

99 % of them never cut the lawn,,,know what to do with a screwdriver,,, etc!!!!!!

at the tavern, i heard one of the young servers,, #####ing about some of the other girls having new cars,,, saying how she was oppressed because her parents only gave her a 1991 MERCEDES to drive......this is a 17yr old !!!

when i was 17,, i alredy cut the grass,, knew not to hit myself in the hand with a hammer,,, etc !!! worked since i was 14,,real job,, did chore for as long as i can remember!!! saved for my own car,,, and couldn't drive it till i bought my own insurance....

that was over 30 years ago,,,,

company i work for is 100% legal,, but we lose a few guys every year....we replace 1 for every 2 we lose...

the labor pool is severly depleted as for who is availible to work...willing to work !!! to do manual labor...and legal !!!!!

maybe it is not that bad where you are at.... but it is here....

like i said,,,, who are you going to hire ??? it's going to get to the point where you are going to fill postions,, or go out of biz !!


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## (WLL) (Dec 18, 2007)

coydog said:


> Many immigrants that built this country never learned English as fluently as their their native language and many never learned it at all, but they died as American as anyone. It's the second and third generations that grow up with English as their first language that have no trouble speaking and reading it. Lots of Spanish speaking workers here legally would not be able to absorb the training materials let alone pass the arborist exam if it was not available in Spanish, not to mention the invaluable resource to have training material available in both Spanish and English to create a better opportunity to read and write in English. The fact is that America was ,is,and will be shaped by immigrants. Immigants are not un-american. To say that we conquered this nation and did not have it handed to us only displays xenophobic ignorance. America is the land of opportunity. Who do you refer to? Custer? The Trail of Tears? My grandfather signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and fought along side Cherokee indians as well as those that died at the Alamo. I'm proud of that heritage and your post sickens me, you don't deserve to invoke the name of the Alamo, because the philosophy you preach is more akin to that of the mentally challenged national socialist biker gang "The Black Widows " forever chasing Clint Eastwoods character Philo Beddo than anything represented in the US Constitution, "right turn Clyde!"


if thay cant build there own country up how they gonna help build ours?


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## ropensaddle (Dec 18, 2007)

juststumps said:


> i didn't want to get involved with this,,, but really,,, who are you going to hire?????
> 
> i don't know about where the rest of you live,,, but here in this area of NJ,,, kids don't want to work,,, they don't want to learn a trade,,they are to busy playing sports and getting ready to go to college... and i forgot the wii,,,, x-box, sega, and texting on the cell phone.....
> 
> ...


Yeah have heard that argument too and though it may 
have merit if the labor price was not turned to chit by
illegal underbidding maybe the kids would see a future 
in working with hands! That is more a parenting issue
as by the time I was 16 I had hauled hay detassled corn
moved grass and scooped chit.


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## juststumps (Dec 18, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah have heard that argument too and though it may
> have merit if the labor price was not turned to chit by
> illegal underbidding maybe the kids would see a future
> in working with hands! That is more a parenting issue
> ...



it's not that,,, around here,,,mommie and daddie are pulling in excess of $150,000 per year,,, and thats on the low end.. kids don't have to work any more....

its the " I'M GOING TO GIVE THE KIDS, THE THINGS I NEVER HAD" thing !!!

the kids that are willing to work,, or have to work,, are like "i can drag brush for $10/ hr... or i can work at McDonalds for the same money,, my friends can cruise by,, and i can keep my feet dry, in a heated building,,, before i go to college...

look at any 7-11 type store,, or gas station... you don't see teenagers working at most of them !! or home depot, or lowes ...


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## juststumps (Dec 18, 2007)

#####


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 19, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> I think illegal immigrants should be gone!
> 
> I work with many immigrants from Guatemala. They are GREAT workers and AWEOME people! They came here, paid thier dues, work hard, pay taxes, and speak and CONTINUE to LEARN the ENGLISH language. Great in my book!
> 
> ...



Well Jim, you were right about this thread getting out of control. Lets see if we can't get it back on track
Your statement above doesn't answer the question originally posed by lxt. reading between the lines, I would say that you would appreciate arboriculture texts in spanish to help train your amigos. Si'?

I was going to let the "balls to the wall workers" comment go, but its not in my nature. You know my guys and I work hard, train hard, play hard. Just imagine TREE GUYS with real standards and rules. I'm not saying it would be perfect, just better than the way it seems to be going right now...........


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## diltree (Dec 19, 2007)

I think there should be a Union for Line Clearance, and municipal tree trimmers, those guys only get paid $16.88 per hr. and work around the wires all day...they need a union to get the prevailing wage up!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 19, 2007)

diltree said:


> I think there should be a Union for Line Clearance, and municipal tree trimmers, those guys only get paid $16.88 per hr. and work around the wires all day...they need a union to get the prevailing wage up!


Is that what it is there I had twenty years and quit at 15.10
as a danger tree and new row expert! Unions are only as good
as their rep and he needs to be a bad azz.


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## lxt (Dec 19, 2007)

(WLL) said:


> if thay cant build there own country up how they gonna help build ours?



EXACTLY!! some on here want to defend them because they hire them!!! Legal fine but speak english!! Sorry, spanish is not needed if they are here legally.....for education & training purposes please!!! how do you come here legally if you cant read, write or speak english? maybe we should have them legals watch "are you smarter than a 5th grader" then they will atleast know whats going on!!

John Im not prejudice against anyone, I just dont feel that a sect of people who come here anyway they want legal/illegal/work visa, etc... should dictate that americas 2nd language needs to be spanish just so WE can communicate with them!!

who ya gonna hire? good question kids today are lazier than ever, parents fault, but......today also demands a larger wage, I use to mow what seemed to be a 1/2 acre for $10 now you couldnt mow that lot for $100.00 If your starting the 18-20yr old out at $10hr you are gonna loose them especially in this trade, I start my men off groundwork only $12hr & had to raise that.

Kids today can go to Best Buy, target, American Eagle, Subway, etc... & start off at $9.00 why would they want to sweat their Azzes off draggin sticks for $10 an hr, this is the problem, its not like when we were their age work hard & succeed, they have seen how the corporate/business world today works, some of there parents loosing 401k`s, no health care, etc... they are not gonna be loyal to any company unless you pay em!! & I dont blame them, the days were you work the same job 30+yrs & retire with the ability to do ok are gone & these kids know it!!! So some of you think the answer is our spanish speaking counterparts......WRONG!!

LXT...........


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## BostonBull (Dec 19, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> Well Jim, you were right about this thread getting out of control. Lets see if we can't get it back on track
> Your statement above doesn't answer the question originally posed by lxt. reading between the lines, I would say that you would appreciate arboriculture texts in spanish to help train your amigos. Si'?
> 
> I was going to let the "balls to the wall workers" comment go, but its not in my nature. You know my guys and I work hard, train hard, play hard. Just imagine TREE GUYS with real standards and rules. I'm not saying it would be perfect, just better than the way it seems to be going right now...........



This is where the true conservative in me comes out......Screw em! 
learn english and then come back to get a job. I think we should have text in Spanish for the co.s that refuse to hire ENGLISH speaking employees. But as for my true feelings, NO, english only for training manuals. All of our "amigos" speak english well enough to understand what we need of them, how to SAFELY do it, and communicate back with any questions. They are no Jay Severin, one of the most well spoken people I have ever heard, but they are fluent. They also pride themselves on learning. They all have spent HUGE money on rosetta Stone books/courses for English, and they also read all safteymanuals we give them and enjoy/participate in the TCIA tailgate meetings we have.

As for unions yes their are hard workers in every union. I speak from my experience only. The utility unions in Boston, NSTAR, are full of lazy cry babies! Contractor unions, different ball game.

ROW, Line Clearnace guys should be MANDATORY Union. Not for the wages, thats just greedy, but for the training aspect. I have worked for both sides of utilities, and the training the unions push for and get in their contracts is second to none!


I hope this answers the questions................


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## Thillmaine (Dec 19, 2007)

*Ditto*

I feel the same way as BostoinBull. This isnt a spanish speaking country. We didnt go to mexico and expect signs to be in english. It is what it is. Enough witht he hating on the younger generation. I am 22, pay all my own bills, paid for my college, work hard, am not dishonest, and enjoy working for what I have. Dont get me wrong, I have friends in Jersey that are the same way as juststumps is speaking of. Keep in mind there are still useful workers among our younger generation, although the numbers are dwindling.


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## DonnyO (Dec 19, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> . The utility unions in Boston, NSTAR, are full of lazy cry babies! Contractor unions, different ball game.
> ................



National Grid now controls the utilities in Boston....haven't you driven by the gas tanks lately?


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## BostonBull (Dec 19, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> National Grid now controls the utilities in Boston....haven't you driven by the gas tanks lately?



They control the Natty Gas, that Keyspan used to have. not the electric or the old Boston gas.....NStar still controls these two. they are the biggest utility in MA, customers and revenue wise! And they only cover from Boston to the cape!


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## John464 (Dec 19, 2007)

BostonBull said:


> They also pride themselves on learning. They all have spent HUGE money on rosetta Stone books/courses for English



yup. my guys all have DVD's, books, and tapes to better themselves in the English language, even if they know and understand every question their superiors ask them except a few who have spanish speaking superiors. I watch these guys learn our language. They want to learn the Ameican language and continue to educate themselves in achieving fluency. The TCIA, ISA, Bandit Industries, Vermeer, etc do not expect us to learn spanish, but it helps if we do and is safer that way. That is the bottomline and the answer to your questions LXT.

You do not have to learn spanish, nobody is forcing you to. However, when the time comes that you need a good helper and the only guys visting your office willing and ready to work you may be a diservice to yourself if you do not know atleast some spanish. You can never have too much knowledge.

If If run out of Mexican help and Asians start wanting to work Ill be learning Chinese. haha j/k


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## oldirty (Dec 19, 2007)

wow this is a goooood thread.

any of you guys ever been to lawrence mass? from the way it was (of course i wasnt around then but the stories i've heard about it) and the way it is now is pretty gross.


back then when you floated in on your boat you made an effort to better you and your family from the get go. you took pride in your neighborhood and looked out for one another. sure where you lived might not be the ritz but people made the most of what they had and didnt really ask for anything but a chance.

now when "they" show up they think they are entitled to something for nothing. as much as i hate to reference the poem but WLL's poetry is almost right on. 

again i say look to lawrence. they just built a multimillion dollar school (supposedly the best school built in recent memory) that i can garauntee will be a dump in a fews years if not a couple.

now heres the Q. am i racist? no. but i do love a good sterotype and how do we end up with a sterotype? by people continuing to meet those standards. time and time again.


someone else said something about pay. how you gonna get a white kid outta bed for 10$anhr? the same kid who can sit and play PS3 allday and eat all he wants for nothing at home knowing damn well he can ask his mom for beer and weed money and get it. i know that little prick isnt worth 5 bucks an hour but what you gonna do?
thats the question.

and from what i am hearing from the higher up at work some of the homeowners are actually asking who is going to be showing up to do the work. they want to know if a pickup full of can's are going to show up to do the work or a will a couple of "americans" be there. i guess that might be the new way to push your company. "when you contract me to work for you , i will be bringing the white guys!" lol

for real though, how are we going to remedy this situation? 

i have no problem with instant deportation because i am thinking that it would be cheaper to fly em back to wherever they came from than putting them on the system's back like so many many idiots want to.

and this may seem harsh but the guns every few yards pointing into mexico and Canada might be a safe bet and a whole lot more cost effective. from what i understand bullets are pretty cheap. 

well compared to the 101 work days a year that i have to give to uncle sam.

you believe that? 101 days a year you dont get to call your own? ouch. that sucks.


oldirty


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## DonnyO (Dec 19, 2007)

*I hate cans too*

I prefer bottles.........:jester:


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## (WLL) (Dec 19, 2007)

John464 said:


> yup. my guys all have DVD's, books, and tapes to better themselves in the English language, even if they know and understand every question their superiors ask them except a few who have spanish speaking superiors. I watch these guys learn our language. They want to learn the Ameican language and continue to educate themselves in achieving fluency. The TCIA, ISA, Bandit Industries, Vermeer, etc do not expect us to learn spanish, but it helps if we do and is safer that way. That is the bottomline and the answer to your questions LXT.
> 
> You do not have to learn spanish, nobody is forcing you to. However, when the time comes that you need a good helper and the only guys visting your office willing and ready to work you may be a diservice to yourself if you do not know atleast some spanish. You can never have too much knowledge.
> 
> If If run out of Mexican help and Asians start wanting to work Ill be learning Chinese. haha j/k


shame people like you r way to common in the US. when it comes down to it the #1 goal in biz is to increase profits. they will and are selling our country to anyone with a dollar and have no care of the long term affects these company's named above are no different!! i think America is stuck on one day at a time crap. we need to look at the bigger picture and give us hard working Americans and our children a good future!!!we need a revolution not a union!!!stop trying to make a dollar out of 10cents. if you r willing to hire no speekety englass u r not helping american money keep its value.


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## fastbub (Dec 19, 2007)

lxt said:


> #1. why dont they learn english? their in America!!



Why don't you learn English? They're in America.........not their:jester:


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## juststumps (Dec 19, 2007)

fastbub said:


> Why don't you learn English? They're in America.........not their:jester:



LOL


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 19, 2007)

John464 said:


> yup. my guys all have DVD's, books, and tapes to better themselves in the English language, even if they know and understand every question their superiors ask them except a few who have spanish speaking superiors. I watch these guys learn our language. They want to learn the Ameican language and continue to educate themselves in achieving fluency. The TCIA, ISA, Bandit Industries, Vermeer, etc do not expect us to learn spanish, but it helps if we do and is safer that way. That is the bottomline and the answer to your questions LXT.
> 
> You do not have to learn spanish, nobody is forcing you to. However, when the time comes that you need a good helper and the only guys visting your office willing and ready to work you may be a diservice to yourself if you do not know atleast some spanish. You can never have too much knowledge.
> 
> If If run out of Mexican help and Asians start wanting to work Ill be learning Chinese. haha j/k



Chinese would be a very good idea. Considering the Chinese own 52%+ of American Treasury Bills, they may start demanding Chinese become an official language.

It's interesting that the ISA doesn't have it's literature in French, considering it is an official language in a jurisdiction the ISA services.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 19, 2007)

oldirty said:


> wow this is a goooood thread.
> 
> any of you guys ever been to lawrence mass? from the way it was (of course i wasnt around then but the stories i've heard about it) and the way it is now is pretty gross.
> 
> ...



Looked at a map lately, xxxxx, you haven't xxxxx


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## (WLL) (Dec 20, 2007)

oldirty said:


> wow this is a goooood thread.
> 
> any of you guys ever been to lawrence mass? from the way it was (of course i wasnt around then but the stories i've heard about it) and the way it is now is pretty gross.
> 
> ...


Canada!!!! iv never even seen one here , they r good people and not problem for U.S.A. Americans in south amreeka are looked at like food and are often killed!! i say treat em here like they treat us there!!!


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## Mitchell (Dec 20, 2007)

*Canadian Illegals work for less*



oldirty said:


> wow this is a goooood thread.
> 
> 
> and this may seem harsh but the guns every few yards pointing into mexico and *Canada* might be a safe bet and a whole lot more cost effective. from what i understand bullets are pretty cheap.
> ...



Since you bring Canada into the Equation I'll comment some...

I would think Canadians might just stay home and earn more, which is generally what happens in Canada, much higher wages then the USA for standard jobs. More unions and a socialist approach to governance see to that. The UN lists standard of living formulas which puts the average Canadian better off then the average American. Rich Americans live better then rich Canadians. 

I'm Canadian however, my father is a dual citizen and lives in Washington. I also happen to have done post secondarily education in Washington State and I married a Texan. 

When I was in Washginton doing my education in the mid 90's the going concern was the fruit pickers. On a somewhat humerus note, the orchard owners used to get peeved by local kids driving by and yelling "immigration," which would send them running. 

One of the courses I did was American pluralism, which looked at immigration and minority groups. One of the few things I remember from that course was learning America has at times in its history encouraged and welcomed Mexican immigration. The problem as I see it is when large minority groups hit a certain mass they have no incentive to acclimate into their adoptive mainstream society. 

in so far as unions they are the better by far of two evils, the other being corporate greed and those who drive that bus. 

Interestingly, as their is such a labour shortage here the Mexican president when he last met our prime minister, suggested we open our borders to Mexican immigration. Seems to be happening, I was at a construction site [in my very white town] here and Spanish was the language well tanned was the colour by the hundreds.

I heard from a friend who works for the large company that they are actually all American on work visa's. Looks like the Americans are going drive down our wages...


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## pbtree (Dec 20, 2007)

mckeetree said:


> It shouldn't be put on Americas shoulders and anybody that is offended by your post needs to be sent back to Mexico with them.



Amen


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## DonnyO (Dec 20, 2007)

oldirty said:


> oh wetcoast i was only being fair. if you have guns on one border people are going to want the other side covered as well. believe me man i like Canada. alot. i spent 1 full year of my life up there. if i had to face a gun towards Canada i'd leave it empty.
> 
> jeez you are sensitive. would this bother you? Canada will become part of the USA when you get absorbed by us when we need some of your food and water. (you have alot of that of that good stuff)
> 
> ...



sweet comeback bro, I neg repd 'em for calling you a moron.


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## squad143 (Dec 20, 2007)

lxt said:


> Ok, I dont want this to be a bash on immigrants or anything, BUT..... Im reading this months TCIA Mag & have noticed in past Mag`s along with ISA publications that it would seem they want you to learn spanish!!
> 
> their training materials are in spanish & they make a big whoop dee doo about new materials coming out in spanish!!!! So heres my problem!!
> 
> ...




Turns out that this is becoming a bash on immigrants. 

I believe that TCIA & ISA are not interested in YOU learning Spanish for they print materials also in English. I believe you may have more of an answer with your comment on membership. Perhaps they have taken a look at the group that they are trying to serve and realize that they would be better serving their membership if materials were both in English and Spanish.


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## 3yrclimberARK (Dec 20, 2007)

My 2 cents towards this out of control forum.

Mexicans, Guatamalans, Cubans, Chinese, where ever the hell you ar they are from: illegal, citizen, work visa, and all statuses in between. This is the USA, land of opportunity, home of the brave, the greatest country to live in, work in, or be associated with. We are currently the world power of the planet. Every country has their own list of problems. The USA is just too attractive to ALL!! immigrants. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Living and working elsewhere sucks balls if coming here means a better life for me and my family you bet your ass I'm swimming, paddling, and climbing my way in legal or not.

As far as what the government is or can actually do about this problem is little or nothing. For every one that's deported a dozen more are coming in and he'll be plotting his way back even before he's left the country. There is no feasable solution to stopping or slowing the influx of spanish speaking immigrants, it is only going to get worse, and the only thing we can really do is suck it up and deal with it. #####, moan, and gripe all you want we are still stuck with them.

TO EACH HIS OWN!!!! Hire em or don't hire em. Learn spanish or hand out spanish/english dictionarys. Do whatever you feel is justified by your own opinion. Work every day. Go home tired. Kiss your wife goodnight, and do it again tomorrow. The guy next to you is just trying to do the same.


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## Darin (Dec 20, 2007)

Ok, I don't want to hear anyone bash immigrants any longer here. 
Illegal Immigration is a problem. Why? Because it is illegal. If you want to have a discussion of how to make it better. Great. If it gets into bashing the mods will have no alternative than to give infractions out. Throwing out racist names does nobody any good. It doesn't make you a bigger man, it only shows your ignorance. Please make this a constructive conversation. It is easily a hot debate. That is fine. Nothing personal or racist. Or you join the Suitcase Club and I send you packing!!!


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## fastbub (Dec 20, 2007)

lxt said:


> Im sorry bike store manager!! due to your grammar brilliance & spelling wizardry I will consult you in the future, maybe Ill borrow some of those training aides all the biz`s are using for our non-english speaking friends, which I dont beleive for a minute, most companies quibble over a .25cent hr raise but they`re(looky fastburp) going to purchase thousands worth of spanish to english training materials........yeah right!!
> 
> 
> Ohh by the way fastdud, how do you spell cyclist? this is correct right? if so how about you take your own advice & re-spell it in your Bio. under interest`s LOL..........smart guy cant even spell in his own Bio page!!! touche.
> ...



Dude, RELAX!!!...... I was just busting your balls because of the English reference and using the wrong their, or there or they're or whatever. I was joking, hence the little jester guy:jester: . I am sorry I didn't spell a word right in my profile. It seems pretty petty to go after that and poke fun at my past employment when you don't know me. I have been in the business working for someone else many years and took some time off when I was injured to manage a bike shop while I was recovering. Now I have my own business, am successful, just bought a new house and am too busy to update my profile. Sorry you are so touchy about your grammar! Just a joke man.


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## fastbub (Dec 20, 2007)

3yrclimberARK said:


> TO EACH HIS OWN!!!! Hire em or don't hire em. Learn spanish or hand out spanish/english dictionarys. Do whatever you feel is justified by your own opinion. Work every day. Go home tired. Kiss your wife goodnight, and do it again tomorrow. The guy next to you is just trying to do the same.



Amen


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## lxt (Dec 22, 2007)

Fastbub, sorry!!! this topic just bums me out!! easy to get off track & mad, no offense taken & hope none given!!

3yrclimberark, you are WRONG my man Wrong, why dont we just open up and let em all in!! I hear the "we had immigrants in this country in the past" Yes we did!! they came to build a nation!! not detroy it!!

If all latinos came here for opportunity what would become of their homeland, I dont go there to work!! that country will be nothing but a maunufacturers dream build, a dump site, a non regulated place for what ever doesnt muster USA approval!!

I think about both sides, that countries market & ours!! The problem is too many people like yourself think what is happening is ok!! in todays global market if you have to come to the USA to make it somethings wrong!! MFGS are swarming south of the border in droves, kodak, hershey, masterlock & many more....... with all this opportunity why are they still coming here? why dont they wanna work at home in a nice new plant? answer that & you will see what big biz is really about!!! SPEAK ENGLISH!!!


LXT.............


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## squad143 (Dec 22, 2007)

Just curious, but I wonder if all the American oil workers in the middle east are speaking Arabic? LOL.


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## lxt (Dec 22, 2007)

squad143 said:


> Just curious, but I wonder if all the American oil workers in the middle east are speaking Arabic? LOL.



NO! But I bet they`re not there Illegally!! LOL.


LXT..........


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## lxt (Dec 22, 2007)

OK, Look the thread topic is why in spanish? Why do we as Americans need, should learn it? If I have to be Bi-lingual to accomadate someone what need/want will there be for them to learn English?

From a biz standpoint I understand hiring them is good biz, cheap labor more profit BUT..... this race to the bottom is gonna have a long term affect that we are not going to be able to come back from, If your mindset is it will only affect a certain wage group your`re dead wrong!! this practice will find its way going up the ladder too.

I dont understand if american businesses are setting up in other countries & providing a liveable? wage, why do they still need/want to come here?


LXT.................


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## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2007)

lxt said:


> OK, Look the thread topic is why in spanish? Why do we as Americans need, should learn it? If I have to be Bi-lingual to accomadate someone what need/want will there be for them to learn English?
> 
> From a biz standpoint I understand hiring them is good biz, cheap labor more profit BUT..... this race to the bottom is gonna have a long term affect that we are not going to be able to come back from, If your mindset is it will only affect a certain wage group your`re dead wrong!! this practice will find its way going up the ladder too.
> 
> ...


That is easy free health care,and no tax


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## af7850 (Dec 22, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> Since you bring Canada into the Equation I'll comment some...
> 
> I would think Canadians might just stay home and earn more, which is generally what happens in Canada, much higher wages then the USA for standard jobs. More unions and a socialist approach to governance see to that.
> 
> in so far as unions they are the better by far of two evils, the other being corporate greed and those who drive that bus.



I was at an engagement party luncheon for one of my close friend's daughters about a year ago. It started at about 1pm and most people were gone by 3:30 or so, but I stayed for a few drinks with a couple of the other guests. 

At about 4:30, after 2.5 hours of solid drinking, one of the guys stood up and said that he had to leave. I objected, as he bought the last two rounds, and I wanted to repay the favor. He kindly refused the drink, and explained that he had to go back to work at the Chrysler plant to punch out his time card! Turns out he had been "at work" all day.

BELIEVE ME, as a born-and-bred native of Detroit, unions are NOT the way to go. Across many industries and labor groups, unions have destroyed the American worker in a way that has made it possible for the illegal foreign workers to become "attractive" to hiring companies.

While working at a State University, I befriended a carpenter who was repairing the drop ceilings in one of my buildings. On the fourth day of the five day project, I asked him if he did side jobs. He said that he did. I then asked him how long the job would have taken if he was doing it "on the side". He said that he could do the job in 10 hours. He explained that he couldn't do the job any faster at the university because his union "brothers" would retaliate against him for setting too high a standard.

My grandfather is a retired GM foreman. He has had union workers who would show up late o work, and drunk or high, on a regular basis. Not only could he not punish them, but GM had to pay for the worker to take several weeks off of work, and pay for their rehab!

I have seen, first hand, "union apartments". These nifty little sanctuaries are built high in the warehouses of the Big 3. They are furnished, and many have card tables and TVs. The workers will use the break room for their scheduled breaks, and then retire to the "Union Apartment" for a couple hours of post-lunch relaxation (on the clock, of course).

To this day, the workers that I have hired who have Union history are the laziest, tardiest, slowest, whiniest, "sickliest" guys around, and they are totally shocked when I send them packing without their graduated punishment curriculum (verbal warning, written warning, 1 day off, 3 days off, 5 days off, fired).

There was a time when the American worker was second to none. The unionization of these people, while originally necessary and beneficial, has become a cancer, destroying the motivation, work ethic, and employability of the very people it was meant to protect.

Getting back on topic: If you want to reduce the employability of illegal aliens, unionize them. They will quickly learn to work slower, whine more, be less punctual, and expect alot more money.


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## oldirty (Dec 22, 2007)

almost 100% true man. i am sure there are the hard workers here and there in a union but the rate they demand and the effort put in is absurd. plain and simple. 

cant tell how many times ive driven by a union crew with 5 guys watching 1 guy work.

i know the main goal to "get yours" but does it have to be me me me all the time?


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## squad143 (Dec 22, 2007)

lxt said:


> OK, Look the thread topic is why in Spanish? Why do we as Americans need, should learn it? If I have to be Bi-lingual to accomadate someone what need/want will there be for them to learn English?
> 
> Re-read Post #59. They are not trying to get you to learn Spanish or speak it. They are just making information available in both languages.
> 
> ...


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## (WLL) (Dec 22, 2007)

simple its not about safety,its all about money the big companies that put the Spanish on our American stuff are the same people who bring them here!!!! now there is so many here after many yrs of bringing em over that a lot of em have money and business in our country. big company's dont care about nothing but green and if printing label's can sell more stuff they will do it. O don't forget these Spanish co,s will never hire anyone not of there kind. i think most countries and people are racist. only big business in America has an open mind when it comes to making money.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 24, 2007)

Geez, some of you get your undies in a bundle easy. 

The US government is complicent in the illegal worker thing, they have a "Individual tax code" or the like as a substitute for an SSN.

I do not know how it is where the dissenters are, but here in the MKE metro area it is very hard to fill a labor position with a white person. There is an assumption that they should not have to put up with an entry level wage. Skilled people may move around, but most start their own company. 

As for the thing about this was always an English speaking country, that has been true only til around WWI, when national unity forced it on the germanic/franco/whatever communities there were prior to that.

What about the Spanish speaking populations that were in the Southwest prior to the Gringos stealing the land form them? Many of them fought against the so called Mexican Empire with the Texans, only to get screwed by the whiteman.

There is a joke thats been a round for a while

Poly lingual is for a person who speaks many languages, take Belgins who speak at French German and Dutch along with some English.

Bilinguals speak two languages, like many of the amigos that are getting lambasted her.

WHat is the word for a people that speak only one language? American, and darned proud of it you pinko, bleeding heart, liberal....

Why learn Spanish? So you know what they are saying behind your back


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## ROLLACOSTA (Dec 24, 2007)

Our UK government doesn't keep records of people entering and leaving the country:jawdrop: estimates vary but the thinking is we have over 1 million ilegals in the UK, last year we opened the EU flood gates [anyone from Europe can live anywhere in Europe as long as they are members of the European Union] the best part of 3million ''poor'' Europeans decended on to our shores!

No wonder our country looks like its heading for recession, and wages haven't gone up in years


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## Mitchell (Dec 24, 2007)

*unions*



af7850 said:


> To this day, the workers that I have hired who have Union history are the laziest, tardiest, slowest, whiniest, "sickliest" guys around, and they are totally shocked when I send them packing without their graduated punishment curriculum (verbal warning, written warning, 1 day off, 3 days off, 5 days off, fired).



Won't side track the thread for long; That is why I said unions are the better of two evils. 

Back on topic: Not trying to be overally philosophical, however, every marginalized group eventually wants what the rest of their society has so as important as what we do or don't do with them is what they will do. They are likely in the best position to address the issues you are facing.


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 25, 2007)

What a dynamic thread!

Can't say I didn't see it coming. Read the whole thing.

Anywise...

Why in Spanish?

Why not? 

If we weren't in the death throws of this whole Illegal Immigrunt thing, would it matter so much?

Simple fact is, despite this underlying issue, we need communication.

I see good points from both sides of this issue, but the things I read about concerning the events surrounding it gives me little to no hope towards any relief. This coupled with other, shall we say, current global events leaves me looking all the more so at the only Government I can trust, not the Government that seeks a one world order, but the One that will accomplish it in perfect time. That being the Lord's.

On a side note, it is interesting to me that a country that boasts, in God we Trust, does so little to prove it, nor strive according to His principles. Or is their another god these days? god Money?

I see two overwhelming entities at work in this arena: Greed and Fear.

Meanwhile, back to my everyday experience. Since I personally can't do anything to stop the influx all by myself, I have to deal with it...and do so according to the principles I see as best, regardless of the time period, regardless of the situation. Sort of like an anchor, or a Rock, that gives a peace in the storm, even if that storm brings down a relatively recent empire foolish and prideful in its youth and illusion of power, regardless if I once loved and served it exclusively. Yet, as I'm still an American, I love and serve another Kingdom more so. It has been around alot longer and looks to be a sure bet for the future. This is where two worlds collide. What will be the witness thereof? What can I bring from one world to be a positive influence on another in the midst of such chaos?

There are still some good things left here in America to be had, though it is not what it once was. One of which is my freedom to allow my faith to be a blessing to strangers, the poor, the weak, and the downtrodden. 

The plight of our forefathers that led to invasion and immigration of this land is not unlike those of present..how soon we selectively forget and replace with our own version of history. In fact, in some ways it was much more shameful. See the true American History.

In this light, I see my fellow man. 

I just recently worked with some of these Spanish speaking tree workers at the ice storms of the midwest. I see where they lack, I see were they might kill themselves, someone else, or me. I see where they work hard...not harder.

I see a need for communication.

They understood very little English, I know and understand a little Spanish. (what I remember from high school daze)

We got though seven very interesting days. I worked very closely with one Sergio. Late thirties, early forties?

Honestly, I had to force myself to see past the paradigms and prejudices that I'm lambasted with on a daily basis. It was a test. Who gave it?

I ate my lunch one day, cold and soaked in the chipper box of my own truck while Sergio sat in my cab. That was a tuffy, but I had compassion. I waited patiently until we were finished and took my turn to warm up and dry out. No biggie.

I put up with him taking my saw to go groundpound. (It's a good thing I know how to use a file.) I didn't deal with this so well, but I got past it.

Next thing I know, I'm deployed with him and his saw to go clear the line. That was a trip, but I learned to communicate and a need for better communication and training. We got through it, even if I had to take the saw and teach him something on occasion.

I had breaks in between working with him, but it was like he was always popping up around me and my crew. Maybe somebody saw my and my crew's compassion and willingness and ability to work with him in a positive fashion.

I found myself doing a little groundpounding with him, fixing his saw, helping him out in general. I learned a little more Spanish. For example, I asked him, pointed at my saw and said: “en español?" Stuff like that. He kinda lit up that I would even care to know.

I found myself looking out for this guy, swinging saws together (not too close), getting the real dangerous trees down and letting him grow in practice with the smaller and safer ones. 

Yeah, he kinda grew on me. Last day in Oklahoma, we were cutting big weeds in a good snowfall. It's near dusk and we are bringing it in and counting heads because they were going to fire up the lines. There was no room in my truck for Sergio. There he was standing out in the cold just as wet, cold, and tired as me. He worked all day long while even some white boys were too busy looking for ways to stay warm, dry, and rested. Well I couldn't stand to let him freeze like that as hard as he worked, so I grabbed a spare hat and gloves, gave him a place to warm up while I pulled our chains off the tires and we made it to the rally point with four crushed in the front cause nobody would take the time to go out of their way to come get him.

I like Sergio. I care about the man. Why in Spanish...why not?

I took a factory job years ago and quit because it was all Spanish on my shift save a black guy that called me the Doctor because of the way I operated a fork truck and managed to load so many trucks right off the production lines. Oh and one French guy.

I asked why do I have to learn Spanish...this is America, teach them English!

They told me that it was easier (because I was educated) and cheaper (I'm one, they are many) to teach me Spanish than to teach them all English. True, but I still quit on general principle. I wish I hadn't.

In practical reality, it's easier and safer to print material in Spanish than to wait till they learn enough English, though I still believe it is in their best interest to learn English. Meanwhile, it might not hurt for me to ditch some foolish pride and pick up a little Spanish.

Knowledge is what? My people are destroyed for lack of what? 

Like it or not the more equipped we are to negotiate the real world obstacles ahead of us, the better our chances of survival and success.

Whether that be learning languages or following principles of a higher power, even if it doesn't make sense, perhaps especially when it doesn't make sense. Maybe that's the logical answer to a seemingly illogical situation.

One that has been given a deaf ear to by too many in this hour.

Does this mean I believe that the issue is beyond criticism? No, constructive criticism in open forums and the arena of ideals is always welcome. It is a problem, we must be patient for solutions. In the meantime, we must adapt and overcome what is coming at us in society and in the industry whether it speaks Spanish or not. You either find a way to swim or get washed away.

I'm sticking around, I love trees more than the huggers. I'll teach that and more in any language.

Feliz Navidad!


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## oldirty (Dec 25, 2007)

great post bigus


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## lxt (Dec 25, 2007)

Bigus Termitius said:


> What a dynamic thread!
> 
> Can't say I didn't see it coming. Read the whole thing.
> 
> ...



It is a dynamic thread!! why not in spanish you say? why in spanish is the thread topic, Yes, not to be cruel but your love for a fellow co-worker is admirable in the human sense!! but not in the real world sense pertaining to jobs, finances, education, pensions, healthcare, insurances, taxes, & just fair labor practices!!!!!

We need communication!! why? I communicate fine as do others & there is no need to learn a different language, those of you who find this "the new best thing" or think its an advance in future relations..SCARE ME how soon you forget most are here illegally & with all the legal methods of entry into this country why cater to em? they are given more opportunity than any of us & are given it through a manner of amnesty & pity!! many of you are the same who would bash me or any one else for crying or whining & would say its up to the individual, why so different a view in this case?

our forefathers came here to avoid tyranny, taxes & to set up a new land with freedom in thought & many more reasons.... you think they werent looked at differently by the native american`s, some helped our forefathers & look at what it got them!!!! wait till you have a plot on a reservation designated American!!

I beleive wholeheartedly in GOD!! & wish that everyone could prosper but at what expense? I think those that defend this problem have the greedy intent you speak of, they dont pay em the same to me its a type of labor slavery, while my view may seem harsh it is for the better of all!!

like I said manufacturing firms are moving south by the droves, plenty of jobs to be had, so if spanish needs to be spoken it should be for the purpose of doing LEGAL business!!! not for the purposes you speak of!! Im not against a good thing, I just see no good coming from what is at hand & getting worse!!

the next revolution will be from within & wont be pretty!! we need to become a self sufficient country once again, then we will be the super power that many think we are now & above all keep the creator in mind!!!

merry x-mas

LXT..............


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 25, 2007)

lxt said:


> It is a dynamic thread!! why not in Spanish you say? why in Spanish is the thread topic, Yes, not to be cruel but your love for a fellow co-worker is admirable in the human sense!! but not in the real world sense pertaining to jobs, finances, education, pensions, healthcare, insurances, taxes, & just fair labor practices!!!!!



My response to the premise of 'Why in Spanish?' is:

Why Not? We need the communication. 

I'm not attempting to threaten the topic's sovereignty.

How do you detach the human sense from the real world sense? 

I for one believe if we as a human race apply sound principles in the human sense, the _real_ world, as you say, would be a much better place and these issues might see sound solutions quicker if they would become issues in the first place.

Furthermore, it's not as if these _real world issues _that you've given were in great shape before this influx put its burden upon them anyway. There is no question that there is a burden, and some of it is obviously unfair, but that isn't going to infect how I treat Spanish speaking people. Nor will it blur my vision about why things, even in our industry, are available in Spanish.

I gave the account of my limited experience with Sergio as a real life example about a point of contact I have with the situation that clarifies a real world need to educate and communicate industry related topics as a priority above their English as a second language needs.

Not to pull on heart strings, though there be a human element to the account. I will not separate the two, because it is that human element that illustrates perfectly the need for communication here.



> We need communication!! why? I communicate fine as do others & there is no need to learn a different language, those of you who find this "the new best thing" or think its an advance in future relations..SCARE ME how soon you forget most are here illegally & with all the legal methods of entry into this country why cater to em? they are given more opportunity than any of us & are given it through a manner of amnesty & pity!! many of you are the same who would bash me or any one else for crying or whining & would say its up to the individual, why so different a view in this case?



You just said it yourself and answered your own question perfectly. "...there is no need to learn a second language..." 

Like it or not, the Spanish speaking people are here and communicating things of importance are paramount to waiting for them to acquire English as a second language.

I believe it is to their benefit to learn English, just as I believe it's to my advantage to learn Spanish. It's optional, but the reality(real world) is that I'm going to be around them, and often times in charge of them, I'd like to know what they are saying and direct them safely.

I worked a retail leather store in college here in Champaign, IL. home to the University of Illinois. You talk about a multicultural melting pot! I would be dealing with customers that spoke about everything and speak English to me only when necessary. I felt that it was rude, but I lived with it was a part of the reality of the situation.

You see my friend, sometimes we need to deal productively with a situation regardless of how we feel about it. That is another answer to "Why Spanish?"

Anyway, This Spanish speaking couple comes in one night and pulls this usual stunt on me. I am fair enough with my Spanish to pick up that one asked the other if he knew how long the sale would last.

I answered before he could in English and smiled. Mind you friend, it was a bluff, but it worked. They spoke English the rest of the sale. Why? Because they had no way to know just how good my Spanish was for one, and second the only advantage had seemingly vanished. Perhaps they honored me with English the rest of the way out of embarrassment for their rudeness, or because I knew Spanish as an American and being in America they felt it more appropriate to speak the English language. Who knows really. I finished the sale, after they thanked me in English, with a little Spanish in parting. It was fun, but I learned an important lesson. One that I will apply in this industry and beyond. You are at a clear advantage to understand and speak Spanish. If for no other reason than to understand what they are saying while they figure you for an English speaking gringo. I find the same advantage around some of the German speaking Anabaptists as I have enough German from college to be dangerous as well.

Overall, my point is one of communication and the importance of it. You surely understand the need for communication in this industry, I'm just taking it one step further and seeing the need in a multilingual sense, regardless of these other issues and how we feel about them.

Furthermore, I'm not bashing you, nor do I support illegal immigration or any of its tenants. I suppose you misunderstood me when I mentioned that I see points on both sides. I meant the general arguement with respect to solutions in tandum with the general arguement concerning the impacts and effects on the workforce along with other areas of concern with regards to legals and illegals alike. It's clearly a problem, but the supposed topic of this tread is "Why Spanish?" If you or others choose to use it as a springboard to voice frustrations concerning other semi related topics then who has gone off topic? 



> our forefathers came here to avoid tyranny, taxes & to set up a new land with freedom in thought & many more reasons.... you think they werent looked at differently by the native american`s, some helped our forefathers & look at what it got them!!!! wait till you have a plot on a reservation designated American!!



Really we are comparing apples and oranges to a great extent here. My comments to this are simply reactive to others just to point out that our forefather’s invasion and subsequent immigration wasn't entirely without reproach. That doesn't grant a bye for those that are invading from the south, just puts things in perspective as it removes any illusions of purity to reveal the truth of our history. One we ought to keep in mind when we consider the Mexican plight in its entirety. It doesn't make them right, but it helps us to understand, and helps us to remove judgment from a position that we do not truthfully have. I should think that this would assist in helping us come to fair solutions while treating them properly in the meanwhile. 

I don't agree with all that is being done and not being done, but I stress that this is besides the premise of this thread.

Besides, we shouldn't punish those that speak Spanish that are here legally for the ones that aren't here legally, even if they hold a majority. Thus 'Why Spanish?' gets another credible answer.



> I believe wholeheartedly in GOD!! & wish that everyone could prosper but at what expense? I think those that defend this problem have the greedy intent you speak of, they dont pay em the same to me its a type of labor slavery, while my view may seem harsh it is for the better of all!!



I'm glad to hear of your faith, but faith without works is dead. We need to exercise the tenets of our faith no matter the time, nor place, nor political climate.

If an illegal came to me with a need, I stress need, and it was in my power to give it I would. If I could communicate(see the need) then I would stress their need to be here legally. I'd help them in that endeavor if I could. I'd help them get home if I felt a phone call would do any good. Howbeit if the government fails to uphold its own laws and create a quagmire, I will help my fellow man in the midst of it.

There is greed in those that support the breakings of the law, greed in those that lend a blind eye from a position of political power, and honestly there is a greed found often among the illegals. They have foolishly lent themselves to a type of slavery, but to them it is beneficial. They do threaten the very system that affords them this obscure opportunity.

I have the solution in one somewhat overlooked Achilles tendon. Housing. Take away their ability to live in overloaded housing situations and their ability to undercut and work for peanuts is no longer of any advantage and the realities of expense appear seemingly out of nowhere. Then the new opportunities in their homeland don't look so bad.

I feel some of your frustrations, but meanwhile in the midst of the reality of the situation, I feel a higher calling to treat Spanish speaking people as I should and see a need to communicate one way or another. That is my answer to the original premise.


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 25, 2007)

> like I said manufacturing firms are moving south by the droves, plenty of jobs to be had, so if Spanish needs to be spoken it should be for the purpose of doing LEGAL business!!! not for the purposes you speak of!! Im not against a good thing, I just see no good coming from what is at hand & getting worse!!



I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. I'm not in support of illegal activity, but I'm confident that this misunderstanding has been remedied. Let us try and separate the issues briefly for the record. 

Spanish does not equal illegal. 

There is a need to communicate with the Spanish, illegals may benefit, but that doesn't take away from legitimate needs otherwise, nor should it effect it.

Illegals are breaking the law and causing troubles, but they are still God's creation and deserve treatment accordingly despite how we feel about the overall matter. 

For that matter, many US Citizens break laws and deserve fair treatment in spite of their mistakes as well.

Let us not separate the human element from the real world..this is the human condition..we are in it together, on a planet, somewhere in the middle of a very large creation called the universe...let's try and get along.



> the next revolution will be from within & wont be pretty!! we need to become a self sufficient country once again, then we will be the super power that many think we are now & above all keep the creator in mind!!!



You might be right, but you might find the illegal immigration to be the least of this country's worries, all things considered. Who knows, you might also find America needing all the help it can get. Don't be so quick to get rid of someone that might be of service if someone else wants to play super power and spies an opportunity.

You think Spanish is hard to learn!

Most of all, if we truly keep the Creator in mind then who's king and what is country is put into perspective. Then simple language barriers seem elementary and relative.




> merry x-mas
> 
> LXT..............



Merry Christmas to you sir...I often enjoy your posts. God Bless, Ryan.


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 25, 2007)

oldirty said:


> great post bigus



Thank you sir...Merry Christmas. 

I'm going to take a break and finish enjoying it.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 25, 2007)

Bigus Termitius said:


> Thank you sir...Merry Christmas.



Amen I say to you!

Love thy neighbor...do unto others...speak not so you offend

If everyone who claimed to follow Christ struggled to live their life so, then we would have a much better world.

Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses!

What a concept!

My paternal ancestors came over here in the early 1600's as convicts and religious discentors, how do they compare to the a modern day immigrant? Some probably turned into the Scots-Irish people who pushed the Amerind people back. Any comparison is hyperbole, or inaccurate historical commentary, the Irish and Swede that later mingled in were ridiculed by those whos parents came here before, just as some of us do now. "no blacks or Irish welcome!"

Milwaukee was a predominantly Germanic speaking community prior to WWI, then they started beating kids in school who spoke it.

I'll hold to my belief that it is very difficult to find labor worth their salt from the current crop of young people. You really have to winnow the chaff, even at 12-15 an hour to start.If they are Indian, Hmong, Hispanic or whatever, if they are legal, I will do whatever needs be done to get the job done well and safe.


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## squad143 (Dec 25, 2007)

Love the post Bigus.

Hope you and everyone is having a great Christmas and all the best for the New Year.


"Man fears what he does not know, and what he fears, he despises"

I can't remember who said it, but it is a quote that I've remembered for a long time.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2007)

I am sick of people saying the spanish only speaking people are here, like it or not. The illegals are here, like it or not. Well no, it's not "like it or not" We don't have to accept it at all and it's high time we all realized that. We need to either wake up or just go ahead and declare spanish and english both co-official languages of the U.S. and get it over with.


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## coydog (Dec 25, 2007)

well let's get it over with then,
feliz navidad


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 26, 2007)

mckeetree said:


> Well no, it's not "like it or not" We don't have to accept it at all and it's high time we all realized that.



Many of these people have been here as productive residents with tacit approval of the US government by using the Individual Tax Number system. Wink & Nod pay your taxes and nothing will be said. They've been here for 10-20 years, maybe more. Their kids know nothing but the USA, and may have been born here (making them citizens...)

I'm all for making sure the criminals do not get through. 

I think they should make it easier for legal migrants to come in.

I'm for a program for those people who have been paying taxes to get naturalized. Call it amnesty if you want, if we want to change the rules, or narrow them down in this case, then we should grandfather those who have been good the entire time they have been here.

Do not villify the worker, they just want a better life.

Boycott those companies that perpetuate the system, or do you want the cheap prices, but not work for the cheap wages?


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## lxt (Dec 26, 2007)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here. I'm not in support of illegal activity, but I'm confident that this misunderstanding has been remedied. Let us try and separate the issues briefly for the record.
> 
> Spanish does not equal illegal.
> 
> ...




Ryan, what I was trying to point out is job opportunities are becoming more available south of the border & elsewhere for that matter, I just dont understand the claims of "americans dont want these jobs", they work harder for less pay, they this they that!!! this is the spin being broadcast to us!! I dont think spanish is hard to learn if I wanted to learn it in the first place.

I harbor no prejudice toward the latino/hispanic people, I just dont think their language should be imposed on us, how many of us learned the Native American language? you`re right Spanish doesnt = Illegal.

You speak of Rude in your post, the reason Americans are angry is because of just such, how ignorant is it to break the law, work a job for much less than what an american would, put the burden of leagality on americans shoulders, put safety, language, taxes, healthcare, pensions, transportation, education, etc... on Americans shoulders & do it knowingly!!!!

So not only do we foot the bill for them but we loose jobs to them & all at our expense, they know what they are doing is wrong but continue to do it any way......this is not only rude but an ignorant slap in the face as well.

I follow the word of God best I can, am a sinner, thank Christ often!!! do I backslide on occasion? Yes! but all in all I try my best to follow God`s law first & mans law second, I just wonder what Law it is that they we speak of follow? Cause as I see it they follow the God named money!! Break the laws of man & the love thy neighbor....do unto others.....speak not to offend seems one sided to me in this situation.

I dont think it is rude of us (Americans) to send Illegal immigrants back home, I dont think it is rude of us to ask them when in America to follow our laws, speak our language, support youself at your expense, etc..etc.. Do this & do it legally.........well then.......Welcome to America!


LXT..........


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Many of these people have been here as productive residents with tacit approval of the US government by using the Individual Tax Number system. Wink & Nod pay your taxes and nothing will be said. They've been here for 10-20 years, maybe more. Their kids know nothing but the USA, and may have been born here (making them citizens...)
> 
> I'm all for making sure the criminals do not get through.
> 
> ...



You are right about the individual tax number system, some illegals do pay taxes based on an assigned number and I guess if some sort of amnesty program were to be put into place they should be the ones to benefit from it.  But the thing about it is recent studies have shown that out of 13 million illegals here now only about 160,000 have ever, that's EVER at any time, paid any social security or income taxes. That looks like this:13,000,000 vs. 160,000. I guess the other 12,840,000 can go home.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 26, 2007)

mckeetree said:


> You are right about the individual tax number system, some illegals do pay taxes based on an assigned number and I guess if some sort of amnesty program were to be put into place they should be the ones to benefit from it. But the thing about it is recent studies have shown that out of 13 million illegals here now only about 160,000 have ever, that's EVER at any time, paid any social security or income taxes. That looks like this:13,000,000 vs. 160,000. I guess the other 12,840,000 can go home.


+20000000000 Illegals go home we have had enough take
your greedy employers with ya and stay out until ya learn 
English and come legal.


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## Frog (Dec 28, 2007)

I have been ready this post since it was started. I was going to stay away from it, but since it's start a fairly big tree company in this area has been busted twice with illegals. I think that we as AMERICAN people should demand stiffer penalities for those people who hire them PERIOD!!!!

It is based out of greed and nothing more. For all of those who say they work harder and show up every day to work. B.S.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are all kinds of us small time tree guys out there who do it every day. So think up another excuse to tell your future generations why they are stuck working for peanuts..


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 28, 2007)

Frog said:


> There are all kinds of us small time tree guys out there who do it every day.




There in lies the rub. As I mentioned above, many of the good workers go off and start their own buisness after a few years.

We've heard it lamented on this site on many occasions, "I'm sick of training my competition!" The ones with excellent work ethic, but a disinterest in actual Arboriculture drift off to other industries that pay better, construction, concrete, trucking.

The only companies that have a high tenure of production employees are the ones with enough crews to work them regularly at a high wage.

How can the little guy, who does everything; sales, production, repair, collections, bookkeeping... expect to keep good people if he will not pay more then other industries.

The bigger company that needs to winnow the chaff for entry level employees has to lower the bar, the small guy laments the dirth of willing applicants because he does not have the resources to mine for that diamond in the rough.

Yes there are qualified people out there, but the reported unemployment rate is still less than 95:5. If five out of 100, or 1/20th of the population is not working, how many applicants are;

with violent felony convictions
suspended/revoked DL
truely mentally challenged
LSoB's
carrying anger management issues
think they are worth more then their demonstrable abilites
quit after 2 days because the work is too hard

The above list is compiled from conversations with my clients who advertise with starting wages above industry standard.

A couple have gone with Hispanics who will work their buts off for $10/hr just dragging brush

Many of the ones where they say they can climb, insist on a high industry wage, often show a meager, if not scary level of skill. 

I do not condone the hire of undocumented work, but our society perpetuates it as much as much as the industry.


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## lxt (Dec 28, 2007)

JPS, I know were you are coming from, I go through it every year!!! BUT I dont lower myself to hire Illegals, This industry is ruthless as far as competitive wages go & those that HIRE the hispanics/latinos for $10.00hr & claim they work their butts off should re-read my post responding to Ryan.

This industry doesnt perpetuate this type of hiring behavior, greedy, wantin to make more profit, lawbreaking Bum Employers!!! are who perpetuate this, as you say!!

I guess they would work hard(not harder), hell if a good wage where I came from was $6.00hr & someone offers me $12.00 Ill work hard too!!! that would be like me paying my climber over $60.00 hr( hes worth it) but I cant incorporate that kinda wage in my price.

Jeeezz Im going about this wrong, dont pay the men you have any more, ask them to take a pay cut by atleast 1/2 & if not I get Illegals & pay them double what they would normally make at 1/2 what I pay my men now!!!! yepper this will jump start any economy!!! LMFAO Well should I make them this offer? cause thats what the hack bum Employers who hire em are doing!!

LOL..........

LXT....................


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 28, 2007)

lxt said:


> This industry doesnt perpetuate this type of hiring behavior, greedy, wantin to make more profit, lawbreaking Bum Employers!!! are who perpetuate this, as you say!!



Well, in a way the industry does at least exacerbate the situation; so many of the good climbers break off to do it on their own, lawn companies see more profit and go into trees. For whatever reason the only limiting factor to competition is working at heights, or getting people to do it. More people competing for a limited number of clients (people with trees who will pay to have them worked on) drives prices down yada yada yada...

Some of the companies are cheapskates, but many are just trying to make do with what comes through the door. Then they hire Juan, who works out. They need another, Juan knows Jesus...

The one good thing about the housing crash is that less people are coming across the border.


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## Darin (Dec 28, 2007)

Frog said:


> I have been ready this post since it was started. I was going to stay away from it, but since it's start a fairly big tree company in this area has been busted twice with illegals. I think that we as AMERICAN people should demand stiffer penalities for those people who hire them PERIOD!!!!



Well unfortunately you don't know the governments stupid laws. I hire hispanic people all the time. As a company I check the legality of each individual hired. Unfortunately, I have to break the law everytime I hire somebody. You cannot check the validity of a person's social security number without hiring them. If you call social security without them as a hired worker, it is called profiling. So since you can't actually hire somebody that is illegal and it is illegal to profile them as a possible illegal. Then what is a company to do? This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. At one time I had 80 laborors (all hispanic) working for me. I had to let many of them go after implementing my policy of checking each one. Several had illegal info as the social security office will tell you who the number belongs too (as long as they are actual employees). I had many of them with women's ss#'s. So thought you guys should know that you need to break the law one way or the other to find out if they are legal or not. They figure you have rules to fire them if they give you false info. But for a certain period of time you will be running illegal at any rate if they are illegal.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 28, 2007)

Ok the amnesty thing may work if they pay their share,
but our human assistance off limits. This is the biggest
expense about them and also,illegals born here not a
citizen we are not going to raise you azz no more.
I got an idea since our government seems to be 
representing illegals, make the illegals pay the taxes
and Americans be free of it! Works for me


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## Bigus Termitius (Dec 28, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok the amnesty thing may work if they pay their share,
> but our human assistance off limits. This is the biggest
> expense about them and also,illegals born here not a
> citizen we are not going to raise you azz no more.
> ...



NO Taxation without representation ought to work both ways....

...no representation without taxation.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 29, 2007)

Darin said:


> Well unfortunately you don't know the governments stupid laws. I hire hispanic people all the time. As a company I check the legality of each individual hired. Unfortunately, I have to break the law everytime I hire somebody. You cannot check the validity of a person's social security number without hiring them. (snip)



There are web sites that let you enter SSN's to check validity. They do not identify the person but do give the city where the number was issued. Those sites have helped me weed out blatant fake numbers, and if the city is different from mine, I ask the person where they got their SSN. If they say they don't know, or give an incorrect answer, it's a good bet that they're illegal.


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## Darin (Dec 29, 2007)

Sunrise Guy said:


> There are web sites that let you enter SSN's to check validity. They do not identify the person but do give the city where the number was issued. Those sites have helped me weed out blatant fake numbers, and if the city is different from mine, I ask the person where they got their SSN. If they say they don't know, or give an incorrect answer, it's a good bet that they're illegal.



Cool. Didn't know about the websites. Do you have any links? That would be helpful for everyone here including me. They never told me about any website. Go figure!!
Thanks for the info.

It looks like you are going above and beyond the call of duty on investigating. That is great, but where do we have to say enough is enough on our end. The gov needs to set a guideline up on what to ask, how to ask it and maybe an online form. This way it is consistent for every business. I can see it now, there wouldn't be any proof that you asked extra questions. One illegal does his homework and he is working for you. Good 'ol uncle same says you aren't doing enough. The guidelines are pretty week or non existant at the moment. That is where we as businesses need something that is consistent. That is why I started with the phone (this was about 3 years ago). This is all the info I got. I called several dozen times. I haven't hired anyone since then. I use only subs now. Only check the main guy now and make him sign on of those forms that says he has validated his employees. The rest are his problem. Thanks again for the info. I will go that route the next time I need to check.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 30, 2007)

The Italians, Germans, Polish, Dutch, Chineese, Swedish, Vietnameese & all other people came to America ( I guess they learned English as a primary language skill ) Why not Mexicans ?????


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## lxt (Dec 30, 2007)

Exactly!! & these people grew America!!! they entered Legally & provided their skills for top dollar!! not to undercut those already here!! Better yet Im glad I dont have to speak all those languages!!


LXT...........


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## mckeetree (Dec 30, 2007)

lxt said:


> Exactly!! & these people grew America!!! they entered Legally & provided their skills for top dollar!! not to undercut those already here!! Better yet Im glad I dont have to speak all those languages!!
> 
> 
> LXT...........



Exactly times two, those were the folks that came here and built America, not come here and tear it down.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 30, 2007)

One thing annoys me picking up the phone , then, press one for English or press two for Spanish . I have yet to pick it up & then press 2 for French, German, Polish or any other language. Most foreign countries teach English as a secondary language. Let the USA remain strong & everlasting. Just an old tree guy venting frustration.


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## Shaun Bowler (Dec 30, 2007)

*Hypocrates*

If only the state and local goverments would enforce the laws that have been accepted by the people, this would not be an issue.

I am sure most of us at one time or another have worked at places that have the "employee handbook". Or even written "the book". It does not become enforced because of lots of things.
Due to P&L the book gets thrown out the window to make payroll-etc.
If the power to make laws does not enforce the laws then everyother thing becomes a peronel intepreratation, depending on individual concerns.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 31, 2007)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> One thing annoys me picking up the phone , then, press one for English or press two for Spanish . I have yet to pick it up & then press 2 for French, German, Polish or any other language. Most foreign countries teach English as a secondary language. Let the USA remain strong & everlasting. Just an old tree guy venting frustration.



Phone the Canadian federal government you get a bilingual greeting. And you have no chance of becoming Prime Minister or a senior cabinet member if you can't speak both languages (French and English).

Just for giggles, I looked it up and there are 28 - 30 million Spanish speaking people in the US (10% and growing). In 2004, 120 million people voted. A 12 million person block vote could significantly change the election landscape. I'm surprised that the major candidates don't begin doing some of their speeches in Spanish to cater to that block vote.


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## lxt (Dec 31, 2007)

Already happening, some of the public relations people are speaking spanish while campaigning for em!

Whats sad is these people get used by everyone who want /have something to gain, first corporate america uses them for cheap labor, now the politically wealthy use them for their vote. Only in America!!



LXT..................


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## woodchux (Dec 31, 2007)

The State of Arizona knows what to do about the problem of illegals.
Hire one and they suspend you biz license for 10 days... do it twice they take your business license FOREVER.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazin...p+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives


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## Limbknuckle (Dec 31, 2007)

*Illegal Unions*

Unions pretty much are just a big load. The majority of union reps" not all" are employees of the workers companies they represent. If you don't play ball neither do the companies. I've seen unions in govt.(feds & state) that are nothing but a joke. A lot of the throw a dog a bone c??p. Some locals like teamsters and longshoreman still have good reps and some civil service but there are only a handful.
As for illegals. Enter our country legally,get a ssn,pay taxes,pay for your own medical expenses,if not you should be gone. Put marines on the border. Challenge the Mexican prez's bank account . Found out which of our politicians are making the dirty deals and nuke'm. This is a different time. Tree trimming has evolved why not our policies on a "free for a reason" USA.


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## glenn31792 (Dec 31, 2007)

If you are to stupid or to lazy to learn English , please leave.
If you do not love or respect my country enough to learn our language, please leave.

I resent your kind because the emt’s and doctors are having to waste their time to
learn you language instead of spending time reading medical journals. Knowledge that
Could help 100% of their patients not just the 4% who don’t love my country.


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## underwor (Jan 1, 2008)

The hispanic voting block is not a problem if they vote as often as most young people in the country -- almost never. If the other 78% vote, then their 12% is not a problem, but what percent actually vote each election? 

As you might guess, this is my big beef. People who complain, but will not exercise their right to change things. In our last national election I did a survey of my students to see how many voted. 10%!! and these were the older than average students in the group. We need a good draft to get people paying attention to the news and giving a damn about issues. Most people do not know what the issues are, let alone what is being done about them. 

Enough for now.


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## Darin (Jan 1, 2008)

underwor said:


> The hispanic voting block is not a problem if they vote as often as most young people in the country -- almost never. If the other 78% vote, then their 12% is not a problem, but what percent actually vote each election?
> 
> As you might guess, this is my big beef. People who complain, but will not exercise their right to change things. In our last national election I did a survey of my students to see how many voted. 10%!! and these were the older than average students in the group. We need a good draft to get people paying attention to the news and giving a damn about issues. Most people do not know what the issues are, let alone what is being done about them.
> 
> Enough for now.



Bob, I can't agree enough!! This needed to be said. People really don't think their vote is worth anything. You would think with hanging chads and recounts that something would make them think that every last vote counts.


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## (WLL) (Jan 1, 2008)

underwor said:


> The hispanic voting block is not a problem if they vote as often as most young people in the country -- almost never. If the other 78% vote, then their 12% is not a problem, but what percent actually vote each election?
> 
> As you might guess, this is my big beef. People who complain, but will not exercise their right to change things. In our last national election I did a survey of my students to see how many voted. 10%!! and these were the older than average students in the group. We need a good draft to get people paying attention to the news and giving a damn about issues. Most people do not know what the issues are, let alone what is being done about them.
> 
> Enough for now.


good thing only legal's can vote!!! the Hispanic voting block is not a problem because most are here illegal. my vote goes to LXT!!! hay LXT please let me know who to vote for!!! seems like they all tell a good story until they get in it is so hard to follow I'm just


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Jan 1, 2008)

Yes, I agree 100 per cent with BCWetCoast about the language acceptance in Canada. English or French are indeed needed for your existance or daily transactions. All I'm trying to point out is the fact English is the spoken & accepted language in the United States of America. May it remain so, in persuit of life, liberty & happiness. Please stay tuned for more annoying verbalizations.


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## glenn31792 (Jan 1, 2008)

John464
Why should we deny those that wish to LEGALLY enter, the chance that was once 
provided for our ancestors?


As the population density goes up our quality of life goes down. More wooded land, 
open land and farms get turned in to housing. Once its gone its gone forever. 
Deport the illegal’s and our schools will be able to provide a better education for 
OUR CHILDREN. Same thing for hospitals.



juststumps
it's not that,,, around here,,,mommie and daddie are pulling in excess of $150,000 a year

The more the parents make the more important it is for the kids to get out and earn
some $$$. It’s the only way they can learn the value of a $. I never met a rich kid who
took care of the car his daddy bought him the way we took care of the cars we earned
working as kids. What happens once the kid hits 20-25? Is daddy going to buy him 
everything for the rest of his life?


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Jan 1, 2008)

Glenn31792; Your public profile "farmer" , a noble profession. Keep up the good work.


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## lxt (Jan 1, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> good thing only legal's can vote!!! the Hispanic voting block is not a problem because most are here illegal. my vote goes to LXT!!! hay LXT please let me know who to vote for!!! seems like they all tell a good story until they get in it is so hard to follow I'm just



Amen to that brother!! Ill tell ya this election is gonna be a tough one, no one wants to put their neck out there for whats right afraid of retaliation I guess!!! everyones busy bustin on the other guy!! As long as the very wealthy are running for office we are in trouble!!

we need; farmers, utility workers, truck drivers, tree trimmers, secretaries, nurses, laborers of all fields & people who wake up early every day to go make the doughnuts!!!! to run this country & be voted in to office!!

LXT..................


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## underwor (Jan 1, 2008)

lxt, 

Let us know when you file to run for office. 

We will listen to your platform as we have here.

You are right that we need more commoners in office, but few want to run. Our last local election saw two town counsel members get voted in with one and two votes respectively. No one else had the time or desire to run. But we have had plenty of complaints since about the situation. It will be interesting to see if this spurs more of a race next time.


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