# Stihl MS194T vs Echo



## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

I am thinking about buying a MS194T.
Anybody have experience with this saw and how it compares to a Echo CS-341 or other?
Thanks


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## Rabid K9 (Mar 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> I am thinking about buying a MS194T.
> Anybody have experience with this saw and how it compares to a Echo CS-341 or other?
> Thanks



Have one running alongside 160T, 192T, 2 x 201T's & 200T.

Great little climbing saw, can't compare it with the Echo (having never used one), but it hold's it own. Not a much pizzaz as my well worn 192, which is an animal, but have used it for some very large removals. Much prefer it over the 201's. Run it with 14" bar, 3/8" picco.


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

Rabid K9 said:


> Have one running alongside 160T, 192T, 2 x 201T's & 200T.
> 
> Great little climbing saw, can't compare it with the Echo (having never used one), but it hold's it own. Not a much pizzaz as my well worn 192, which is an animal, but have used it for some very large removals. Much prefer it over the 201's. Run it with 14" bar, 3/8" picco.



I have a 201t and I mostly use a CS-2511t and a CS-271 becuase they are light = I am older now and have Lymes.
I have cut with all these = in the tree
2511t - 5.2lbs - 25cc
271t - 6.6lbs - 27cc
341t - 7.7lbs - 33cc
355t - 8.2lbs 36cc
194t - 7.3lbs - 30cc
201t - 8.2lbs - 35cc
200t - 7.8lbs - 35cc - unavailable
020avs - 9.7lbs -40cc - retired

So, I never cut with a 194t and would like to know if it has more power then a echo 341t

Would be nice for Echo make the 271t with a 30cc cyl


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## lone wolf (Mar 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> I have a 201t and I mostly use a CS-2511t and a CS-271 becuase they are light = I am older now and have Lymes.
> I have cut with all these = in the tree
> 2511t - 5.2lbs - 25cc
> 271t - 6.6lbs - 27cc
> ...


So get a 150T and advance the timing and open the muffler.


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> So get a 150T and advance the timing and open the muffler.



Did that with a 2511t and is my go to saw.
From what I hear from other arborists is that the 2511t outperforms the 150t
With that said, I have not had a 150t in my hands to compare and cut with and because of the price, do not want to experiment.


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## lone wolf (Mar 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> Did that with a 2511t and is my go to saw.
> From what I hear from other arborists is that the 2511t outperforms the 150t
> With that said, I have not had a 150t in my hands to compare and cut with and because of the price, do not want to experiment.


What part of Jersey you in?


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

MS151T is 5.7lbs and 24cc at $589 = not attractive


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> What part of Jersey you in?


Northern - Morris County


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> What part of Jersey you in?



Maybe I will buy a ms200t from ya


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## lone wolf (Mar 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> Northern - Morris County


Too far from me .I have 4 150T's here. IDK I love the Stihls.


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## lone wolf (Mar 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> Maybe I will buy a ms200t from ya


None available at this time.


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## Stihl User (Mar 20, 2022)

lone wolf said:


> Too far from me .I have 4 150T's here. IDK I love the Stihls.


Absolutely prefer STIHL above all others but my injuries demand light/power over power/weight.

Had Stihl made the 150t a 28cc saw they would not be able to keep them on the shelf.

We need high quality BB kits for these topper saws.


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## Captain Bruce (Mar 20, 2022)

FYI, common parts are different from the 192, to the 193, to the 194. Any cosmetic damage dealt with going forward, is confusing.

Sticking to your topic, ECHO makes a good chainsaw, across its product line. Husqvarna/Jonsered are a cut above in terms of quality in build. But you Stihl have to.........

The 150 is a tiny, light, durable toy........the 201T's are the road to the future of professional climbers. The new A/V system is beyond forgiving in the event of a fall. Its like Stihl designed them to be dropped.....

I work on alot of saws, from every market, and price point.....Having said all that, MS200T's continue to command, and rightly so, $1,500 ++. (if eBay has any credibility as to current market values, based on historic sales data for the last 22 yrs.)

There may be a good/better/best deal right on this forum?


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## hamesadam (Jun 20, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> I am thinking about buying a MS194T.
> Anybody have experience with this saw and how it compares to a Echo CS-341 or other?
> Thanks


Hello, which one did you buy?


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## Stihl User (Jun 21, 2022)

hamesadam said:


> Hello, which one did you buy?



Waiting on some payments and then will buy the 194t and pull the muf & cylinder and do a little work and see how it goes.


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## Stihl User (Jun 21, 2022)

hamesadam said:


> Hello, which one did you buy?



i picked up a echo 341t and did a muf mod.
Runs good but will buy the 194t soon and do the same, then compare the two.


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## Sierra_rider (Jun 21, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> I am thinking about buying a MS194T.
> Anybody have experience with this saw and how it compares to a Echo CS-341 or other?
> Thanks


I feel like we talked about this before, but did you gut the insides of the muffler when you modded it on your 2511? IMO, you're leaving power on the table if you don't split the muffler and rip out the divider on it.

I've got a 2511t that I gutted the muffler on and I preferred it to my muffler modded-only 201tcm. It didn't even seem that far down on power compared to the 201, but was quite a bit more responsive. I ended up porting the 201 and it's an incredible saw now, kind of made it a harder decision to choose saws. 

I hear you on the weight, I was dealing with some tendonitis in my right elbow most of this winter...at it's worst, I couldn't even run the 201 in the tree. I'm almost all healed up now, but I realized how much I like a lightweight climbing saw.

Full disclosure, I have no experience with the 194. The closest thing I had was the 192, and the 201 and modded 2511 stomp all over it.


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## Stihl User (Jun 22, 2022)

Sierra_rider said:


> I feel like we talked about this before, but did you gut the insides of the muffler when you modded it on your 2511? IMO, you're leaving power on the table if you don't split the muffler and rip out the divider on it.
> 
> I've got a 2511t that I gutted the muffler on and I preferred it to my muffler modded-only 201tcm. It didn't even seem that far down on power compared to the 201, but was quite a bit more responsive. I ended up porting the 201 and it's an incredible saw now, kind of made it a harder decision to choose saws.
> 
> ...


My 201t sits on the shelf.
i run the 2511t and after limbing the tree i drop down the 2511t and bring up the cs-361p with a 18" bar

All my saws are muf modded.

I drilled right thru the baffle on the 2511t.
But i will take your advice and buy a non-cat muf for the 2511t and then compare them as i have 3


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## Sierra_rider (Jun 22, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> My 201t sits on the shelf.
> i run the 2511t and after limbing the tree i drop down the 2511t and bring up the cs-361p with a 18" bar
> 
> All my saws are muf modded.
> ...



I should've bought the non-cat muffler...cutting the stock muffler in half and gutting it was a major PITA. It's quite the challenge welding it back together too.

I put a BIG outlet in mine, bigger than some people think you should put in a saw muffler...my theory is that a little convoluted muffler like that offers little tuning characteristics and only serves to cut down on noise and power. I just try to open it up so it would dump the exhaust out as quickly as possible. Mine runs extremely well and feels nothing like the stock saw. They are kind of a dog in stock form IMO.

I'm usually climbing nice straight conifers, so limb up with the 2511t and cut the spar down until I run out of bar(16" narrow kerf.) When I switch to a rear-handle, it's my ms400. 

I've also done it in the past where I'll limb up with the 2511 and then trade it for the 201 if I run out of fuel and still have a bit of limbing left to do. My 2511 can run the 16" bar, but if I only have a bit of limbing left to do, I prefer the 201 for finishing that and then beginning on the spar. That's my only complaint with the 2511, is the fuel capacity.


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## Stihl User (Jun 22, 2022)

Sierra_rider said:


> I should've bought the non-cat muffler...cutting the stock muffler in half and gutting it was a major PITA. It's quite the challenge welding it back together too.
> 
> I put a BIG outlet in mine, bigger than some people think you should put in a saw muffler...my theory is that a little convoluted muffler like that offers little tuning characteristics and only serves to cut down on noise and power. I just try to open it up so it would dump the exhaust out as quickly as possible. Mine runs extremely well and feels nothing like the stock saw. They are kind of a dog in stock form IMO.
> 
> ...



AGREE - i have done exactly this in the past but recently switched to the cs-361p/18 for finnish work.
Mostly hard wood trees over here - Ash killed by China
If wood gets bigger i will switch to my cs-501p or MS261.
If bigger wood then that i send up my 28yr old son with his 461.
i am 63 with a auto injury that weakened me severely and if that were not enough i contracted Lymes when i was 21 = before it was discovered in the medical field.

Back in the 80's we were using the 020avs = 10lb powerhead


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## Lightning Performance (Jun 22, 2022)

Cool tread that discusses the saws and the climber as a cohesive unit not this vs that.
I'm almost sure it won't last but while the gittin is good...
TLDR!

I'm build and targeting "in the tree" saw builds being I'm also a retiring climber who had health issues back in his forties so now all the tools are being pressed for more power in my stable and others. Porting heads isn't anything new here. 200T ported is still my favorite with a fourteen picco 1.2 chisel loop wearing Total or Stihl bars.

My bought used 192Ts were used little, 193s all got sold off plus most were sold off by now and all my 201Ts were sold off, no thanks. Never bought myself a 194. The Echo 2511T running picco or picco NK is the rage according to many and Scotties heavily modded and ported by XS 2511T is running a picco sixteen NK Stihl setup and does quite well on the tiny chain. I've ran it and so so many others. Dan's ported 200Ts and my last 200Ts going out are some mean eaters we really all enjoy. If your talking 200Ts Wolf belongs here. The other Echo as mention here by the OP needs a jug update if possible or a custom swapped on cylinder. I've never been inside the 2511T but need to go there this fall or winter. Only modded a few for others but no port work was requested. Have no love for the heavy Huskies or lower RPM Echos. Husky 40cc tops are turds imho. Too many people miss the obvious about what is holding back a limbing saw it seems. It's not that hard to find the one or two major choke points to let it breathe better and then you can put a real chisel chain on it with some bite. Even semi chisel setup correctly does a fine job in wet wood or limbs.

It seems to me as we age, get broken, ect, ect and don't do full time work we demand more from these tiny tools to move faster sometimes or support a faster young buck who wants one. I'm looking for the best all around I can get from a 200T, the 2511T later this year and three 192Ts sitting here doing nothing. The other saws here all rear handle for climbing in my stable that do get used often for chunking down dead hardwoods or regular removals. They don't get used on the ground or for storm damage cleanup. Other tools here are better suited for that like a 435, 361, 362 or a few Dolkitas in the middle and the old PP bow. Was using a 260 but it just lacks in too many ways including the small fuel tank it seems on anything but a stock cylinder with a muffler mod and the tiny clutch with a stingy oil pump. Fuel economy is important to climbers but not like that.

The 194T with a serious muffler mod and timing advance seems to do very well although they are not my thing I've done the mods on new ones for others. Ported it seems would offer a bit more but how much IDK. Consider it's oil pump if your planning on a sixteen or eighteen bar. I run a fourteen on any limbing saw most times unless I'm chunking down pine with a longer bar. I have no love for the 150T but others praise them for trimming jobs. Start a build thread here we can follow as you do the mods on your next T build.

The three main rear handle saws on my chopping block for up the tree service are an 034, a custom 034S and a 360P. Haven't dug into a 400, yet. Also need a few new tools, again, to move forward on them. I'm not partial to spring AV limbing saws, it's the feel or the mush, that turns me off making accurate cuts sideways. This batch will be heavily modified outside and inside for longer runs, better intake systems, undated filters and ported with machine work. Many parts from other saws will find their way onto these as needed. Some are decomp buttons, some not and one button was added to a cylinder last week  so high compression can be tested in an easy to start limbing/chunking saw for larger weed control. Not big on the 66 up a tree.


Told ya
Tldr


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## Stihl User (Jun 22, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Cool tread that discusses the saws and the climber as a cohesive unit not this vs that.
> I'm almost sure it won't last but while the gittin is good...
> TLDR!
> 
> ...



The 'ultimate' lightweight topper saw would be taking the echo cs-271t cylinder and fitting it on a 2511t.
i am not a macinist but i believe it can be done = let me know your thoughts.
ALSO
the cs-271t would be awesome with a 30cc cylinder as well.
AND
let's not stop there but machine fit the 201t cylinder on the 194t
ALSO
the ms150t needs 30cc and has room for it

If i owned a machine shop i would absolutely produce these cylinder upgrades


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## Stihl User (Jun 22, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Cool tread that discusses the saws and the climber as a cohesive unit not this vs that.
> I'm almost sure it won't last but while the gittin is good...
> TLDR!
> 
> ...



i use the 12" on the 2511 and a 14 on my 201 as i mostly do hardwoods
Hate pine and maybe do one or two a year.

Have you ever tried a cs-361p with muf mod and slight timing advance?
Easily handles the 18" bar i have on it.


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## Lightning Performance (Jun 24, 2022)

Never tried the 361P. It seems about equal to a 435 @41cc. Most of my rear handles for climbing will remain over 55cc. Already decided 35 to 50cc are too slow for myself in any form except a moddified 034. Find me something that can match it for broad band power, only my 036 does. Both can pull a two foot bar or more if asked and oil it all day everyday as is. Of course most times a 20" will work but not always. Your not putting a 28 or 32 on a 261 unless you like broken springs and burnt bar rails. Now the 034 filter system is lacking but it still out ran a stock 360P every time in the cut in my hand. Not sure much else can complete with stiff rubber AV and fall in this weight class besides an 026.

The cylinder swaps you speak of entail having both saws or the parts to swap on hand to see how things fall into place. Most of the modifications I'm doing involves little to no machine work beyond your standard stuff to lower a blind cylinder.

Most of the high rpm T models are preferred over lower rpm types for pure speed in the cut. The bore size, stroke length, piston or reciprocating weight, the con rod length and the transfer port volume determine most of what is going on inside these tiny air cooled motors. Doing a port job to some types with tiny carbs is genuinely a waste of time. Your dealing with a pump or vacuum pump here that can't get in what it can't get out. The inverse is also true. These things don't change unless we change them. There in lies the big hurdle to get from point A to B making it all fit without hours and days of work involved. Everything needs to be within the right combination or your still just wasting time swapping parts or doing performance enhancements. I didn't invent math just using it while I'm building. Sometime all that still won't fix a built in limit like mechanical limits or sizes. Skirt width, limited piston speeds and port volume are three that come to mind. Air filters are a very limiting factor in these packages along with baffles and noise reducing enhancements. Get through all that before you decide to add more weight and stress. 200T doesn't "need" a big bore but it does need a few other things changed besides bigger ports and a muffler mod. I don't believe a 2511T would gain much from a bigger bore based on the other parts surrounding it. Opinions are like having a nice day


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## Stihl User (Jun 24, 2022)

Lightning Performance said:


> Never tried the 361P. It seems about equal to a 435 @41cc. Most of my rear handles for climbing will remain over 55cc. Already decided 35 to 50cc are too slow for myself in any form except a moddified 034. Find me something that can match it for broad band power, only my 036 does. Both can pull a two foot bar or more if asked and oil it all day everyday as is. Of course most times a 20" will work but not always. Your not putting a 28 or 32 on a 261 unless you like broken springs and burnt bar rails. Now the 034 filter system is lacking but it still out ran a stock 360P every time in the cut in my hand. Not sure much else can complete with stiff rubber AV and fall in this weight class besides an 026.
> 
> The cylinder swaps you speak of entail having both saws or the parts to swap on hand to see how things fall into place. Most of the modifications I'm doing involves little to no machine work beyond your standard stuff to lower a blind cylinder.
> 
> Most of the high rpm T models are preferred over lower rpm types for pure speed in the cut. The bore size, stroke length, piston or reciprocating weight, the con rod length and the transfer port volume determine most of what is going on inside these tiny air cooled motors. Doing a port job to some types with tiny carbs is genuinely a waste of time. Your dealing with a pump or vacuum pump here that can't get in what it can't get out. The inverse is also true. These things don't change unless we change them. There in lies the big hurdle to get from point A to B making it all fit without hours and days of work involved. Everything needs to be within the right combination or your still just wasting time swapping parts or doing performance enhancements. I didn't invent math just using it while I'm building. Sometime all that still won't fix a built in limit like mechanical limits or sizes. Skirt width, limited piston speeds and port volume are three that come to mind. Air filters are a very limiting factor in these packages along with baffles and noise reducing enhancements. Get through all that before you decide to add more weight and stress. 200T doesn't "need" a big bore but it does need a few other things changed besides bigger ports and a muffler mod. I don't believe a 2511T would gain much from a bigger bore based on the other parts surrounding it. Opinions are like having a nice day


OK, ordered the non-cat muff for the 2511 and will update you when i test my muff mod vs non-cat.

I have a 2511t and a 271T and the 271 has more power/torque.
Had Echo made the 271t a 30cc saw every climber would be using one = only 6.5lbs.
AGREE = 200t is fine - but the 201 could use a bump especially since it is a heavier saw.

This winter i will remove cylinders on the 2511t/271t and compare to see if i can make it work.

The smaller the saw = the more beneficial each increase of cc is given to it.

What are the rpm's on your 2511t?

cs-361p is a inexpensive ($375) powerful lightweight saw that can handle a 18 with muff mod.
It's for climbers(like myself) that want to go as light as possible while maximizing bar length in the tree.

Buy one and test it out - that's what we do.


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## Lightning Performance (Jun 26, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> OK, ordered the non-cat muff for the 2511 and will update you when i test my muff mod vs non-cat.
> 
> I have a 2511t and a 271T and the 271 has more power/torque.
> Had Echo made the 271t a 30cc saw every climber would be using one = only 6.5lbs.
> ...


Just remember the case volume changes some most times with a bigger bore.

2511 hum... rpms, idk. Most guys do several other mods and port them. 
If you mean tuned dry like not in the wood?... most saws hit the rev limiter before you need to worry about tuning for higher rpms. Besides that the rpms in the wood is all that really matters. 

Agreed on the 201T bump.

"The smaller the saw = the more beneficial each increase of cc is given to it."
But... I'd rather have a smaller more efficient bore. Less is more climbing.
Again you say a 201T needs a bump. It sure does but the carb and air intake is the place to start off if you already modified the muffler some.
Prove me wrong.

435 comes stock with a 16" 66dl 325 nk 050 bar and they sell 18" or 20" mounts. This power head is identical to the 440 inside. The 440 has a bit bigger oil pump, I'm told, so with a dog mount it seems like a better pic than a plastic dog with no mount holes. Don't like the AV system, mush! 
That saw sees little tree time now with an 18" 325 Sugi LW 034. It's getting a jug swap soon to a very nice used ported Stihl 034 with a popup. Two more KS jugs are sitting with that one already machined down. It's fine now as is but changing it to a 360P air filter system. Machine work with port work makes it ready to pull any bar up to 28" with ease. Also added a decomp button for easy starts. This doesn't mean the bigger bore 48mm 360 isn't getting used, it will, for a custom saw with better offerings put on it. Have one more jug to swap on there to an 034S ported. That should make a spicy climbing beast. This other thing I built was good but still don't like the AV for climbing just ground work. My 361 and 362 are just too mushy for my tastes in trees.

Have a pair of 440 or 4400 Echo saws that would make nice climbers for a rear handle as is. I used them very little. They came all greasy and still are. Parked for seven or eight years now doing nothing sitting with a pair of 530 Echos and a 520 parts saw doing nothing. Two more full shelves under them mostly top handles and few 009's and one 011L.


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## magreeable (Jul 21, 2022)

I bought a 194T today. I just wanted to try one.


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## snobdds (Jul 21, 2022)

I bought my dad a 151T and it's a sweet little saw. With that 1/4 chain, it can get through some wood. 

I'm thinking of getting another one just to put on the shelve for a later date and before they turn it into a computer saw.


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## Stihl User (Jul 29, 2022)

magreeable said:


> I bought a 194T today. I just wanted to try one.



Please let me know how it performed - thanks


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## magreeable (Jul 30, 2022)

Stihl User said:


> Please let me know how it performed - thanks


It's OK. I don't think I'd buy another one.


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## ZinTrees (Jul 31, 2022)

been using my 194 for around a year, low power, even lower RPM, cant lean on it
however it does start easy, and can get much more power out of my by pulling the deflector (part that holds the spark screen in place) off
take clutch cover off, remove T27 on the muffler that holds the little rectangle flap (that points exhaust gasses downward) take that rectangle and spark screen off, opens it way up
may melt side cover but im not experiencing that, been like that a few months
mainly we run the t540Ixp, and a 200t
I would but a 194 again without hesitation, IF i couldnt afford a 201, or another 200
want to try the 151 and 2511t


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