# Underbidding Idiots



## lxt (Feb 12, 2010)

Well folks I bid a state job this week, I get a call thursday from one of the other bidders who went to the site for a tour of what was to be done. I was at the site tour also, he asks me if I heard about who was awarded the bid, I said No & he proceeds to tell me the winning bid was from a minnesota company & they bid the contract at $125.00 an acre

I was dumbfounded, I called & checked to verify what I was told & to my dis belief it was true, I had to call back the gentleman & apologize cuz I thought he was messing with me, we talked for awhile...good guy!

But here is the scoop on what was bid, whatta ya think!

61 acres drop n leave as is, access roads must be kept clear, trees range from 1 DBH - 24Dbh with certain species to remain. The 61 acres is split into 9 different sections, you have till 4-15-2010 to finish. 2 months & must post a deadline surety of $2,000.00 non refundable if project is not complete, no extensions!!

The area is unreclaimed strip mines & access by machinery is not possible ( not to mention the 2ft of snow) stumps must be 12" or lower the acreage is game lands property & you are deep in the bush!! I mean deep.

who here would clear 61 acres for $7625.00, mind you this is PA & its hills & valleys...........I mean hills! 

I was figuring 6-8 men clearing 1.5 - 2 acres a day at best!! My minimum rate for just showing up no matter how small a job is $100.00 seems like a sweetheart contract to me?





LXT...........


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 12, 2010)

That is a whole bunch cheaper than I would work. 

If it is all a bunch of underbrush, you could maybe get by at that price with one of the brush cutters.


----------



## lxt (Feb 12, 2010)

1" dbh - 24 dbh fairly dense in spots, typical multifloral, vines, brush with the occasional opening here n there. 

think about where you would go hunting & look around, Now cut it all down except for the trees marked in red & dont cut the pines/ spruces or injure trees beyond the boundaries......machinery has no access!!



LXT..............


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 12, 2010)

In addition to having been bid too cheap, those spec's don't make any sense.

What is the purpose for the selective clearing, prohibiting machinery, leaving the brush where it falls, and then requiring a bond for a hasty completion date? Is somebody in a hurry to clearcut the trash trees for some sort of ecological reserve?


----------



## lxt (Feb 12, 2010)

Its to re introduce the aspen specie back into the game lands, the bond is a surety or a keep...but only if you dont complete the contract on time.

Machinery is allowed its just that it would be useless on all sites, you may be able to use it on 4-5 acres but the rest of the sites machinery can not access.

this is through the Pa Game commission, so who knows what its for???



LXT....................


----------



## lxt (Feb 12, 2010)

One can check out the prospectus at Pa portal website, but you have to register,
check out solicitation #6100014409



LXT..........


----------



## Sunrise Guy (Feb 12, 2010)

You hit the nail on the head---SWEETHEART CONTRACT!


----------



## treesquirrel (Feb 12, 2010)

Well I may be expensive but I would not touch that for a dime less that 750.00 per acre sight unseen. That would be me and two other men.


----------



## prentice110 (Feb 12, 2010)

My God! See my mini soda thread. I bid a job a month ago for a 30 year vet. Realitivly flat compared to what your talking about. Probably 40 acres of fence row and where the house was torn down. beautiful job to get and old time clearing pro that worked for us wanted my opinion since he needed me due to selling his big gear due to economy. Was happy to help, but he wanted to give it away to make bills. I said "this is gonna take 60 days, best case senario, we need 1000 a day." He told the guy 43000. I said if you get it dont expect my help. Apperently the next lowest bid was 62000. Owner, big time rich arse, still thought we were too high. Thank god. I'd love to have the 2000+ face cords of Black Cherry, but I dont feel like taking down 2000 foot+ diamiter boxelders and paying the hauling for nothing. Still wainting for more info on that one.


----------



## tree md (Feb 12, 2010)

Sometimes it's best not to win every bid...


----------



## prentice110 (Feb 12, 2010)

I want the wood , not the job oh wait, ...no, I want a brain, I wish I had a brain! Mr. Wizard! Get me outta here!


----------



## lxt (Feb 13, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> Well I may be expensive but I would not touch that for a dime less that 750.00 per acre sight unseen. That would be me and two other men.



squirrel, I took the site tour & let me tell ya....3 men would never scratch the surface to finish in time, my bid was in the $1800 - $2000 range & I was unsure about finishing on time.

This is not brush you`re cutting...its trees, brush, multi floral, etc.. & the fact we just had a big snow storm....those game lands will have a ground coating of 2ft or better, I wouldnt take a TREE down for $125.00 let alone an acre.. I dont know?????? 

61 acres @ $125 an acre, what are you paying your men??? think about that at $8.00 an hour x 3 men @ 8....5 day wks is more than than the bid, not including fuel, bar oil, chains, files, ppe for everyone, work comp, adding the commonwealth as an additional insured, etc... you would literally need to finish in a week...... HOW????


LXT............


----------



## mpatch (Feb 13, 2010)

I bid a similar job last year for the NFS and it went for $90 an acre. My bid was 130 an acre. 225 acres if I remember correctly. some of it was thick some of it you could easily do 20+ acres in a day with 3 men. same deal though making room for stands of aspen to grow.


----------



## John Ellison (Feb 13, 2010)

I am curious about this. Was there any estimate as to the average volume or mbf. per acre? That would have a lot to do with it.


----------



## lxt (Feb 13, 2010)

On this job you will lose 2hrs a day just driving in & then driving out, Ive cut many Row`s in my day & a 4 man crew was lucky to get 2-3 spans a day, I couldnt imagine $90 an acre.........thats crazy!!

just the fuel costs to cut down 61 acres with chainsaws has to be close to $2000.00, I would understand if a hydro ax or mower could be used, but they cant be!!!! this is all by hand....

what kinda field are we in?, an acre for hardly anything, I could mow postage stamp lawns all day long & if you put it into acre format...Id make at least $1000.00 an acre & im on a riding mower by myself!!!!!


LXT............


----------



## lxt (Feb 13, 2010)

John Ellison said:


> I am curious about this. Was there any estimate as to the average volume or mbf. per acre? That would have a lot to do with it.




Not familiar with what you are asking? I didnt read anything like what you have mentioned....MBF. per acre...not familiar with this??


LXT.................


----------



## John Ellison (Feb 13, 2010)

mbf is thousand board feet. Just trying to get an idea of the density of the timber.


----------



## lxt (Feb 13, 2010)

I see, no nothing like that mentioned, its just unreclaimed strip mines approx 1/2 -1 mile in to the gamelands, some of the sections are off the access road while others you have to walk 100yards into the wood line to start.

no wood is to be taken out, its just being left there to rot, also....you may be required to provide white inoculated clover (seed) along with fertilizer & straw thatch to areas that have been rutted by accessing the sites.

the topography of this area is very hilly, the strip mines are shale mounds 10-20 ft high & are of a rolling fashion. also the boundaries are marked & no trees can fall out side of them, if so you must clean it up by putting back in the boundary, some trees within each plot are to be saved & have been marked.....good luck at not hitting them, also the pine grove has growth (mature) within it that needs removed without harming the evergreens (pine/spruce).......to do this properly some of the trees may need to be rigged for cum a long procedure so as to not damage what is to remain.

Ill be bidding on another site this Tues, its 80 acres & over 90% of it is not accessible to any form of machinery, not sure about 4x4 access...they were actually dozing paths for 4x4`s when I took the site tour, dont forget about the snow fall in this area also!!


LXT..............


----------



## tree md (Feb 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> I see, no nothing like that mentioned, its just unreclaimed strip mines approx 1/2 -1 mile in to the gamelands, some of the sections are off the access road while others you have to walk 100yards into the wood line to start.
> 
> no wood is to be taken out, its just being left there to rot, also....you may be required to provide white inoculated clover (seed) along with fertilizer & straw thatch to areas that have been rutted by accessing the sites.
> 
> ...



This is just a thought but I wonder if they could be preparing the area for the reintroduction of Elk. I know they did that with the old strip mines in KY. It sounds like they are trying to reintroduce extinct natural flora to the area, I wonder if they plan to reintroduce fauna as well. Will be interesting to keep an eye on.

As far as the bid, I have gotten to where I don't even like to waste my time bidding government jobs. They always end up giving them to Asplundh who does the jobs for peanuts with cheap illegal labor. I will go toss my hat in the ring but I don't usually expect it to come to fruition.


----------



## vandiesel99 (Feb 13, 2010)

*logs?*

Is leaving the debris optional? Maybe the guy plans on pulling out all the logs and coming up on that side of the deal? Heli logger


----------



## fishercat (Feb 13, 2010)

*i got a request for an estimate this morning.*

from a home owner.He said he was interested in a "free estimate".

since he took the time to type free in there i lost some interest.

when he said he was getting several estimates i lost all interest.

The tree was in Stihl-O-Matic's town.I called to see if he wanted to run over and look at it but either he was still asleep or his wife took his phone away again.


----------



## ChiHD (Feb 13, 2010)

mpatch said:


> some of it you could easily do 20+ acres in a day with 3 men. same deal though making room for stands of aspen to grow.





hmmmmmm :monkey:

I call bull####.


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 14, 2010)

:agree2:

It is pretty hard to just MOW 20 acres of tall grass in a day with only a tractor and a 6' brush hog. Don't tell me three men with chainsaws can cover more ground than a single man with a mower.

Unless there is way more grass than trees to cut down.


----------



## mckeetree (Feb 14, 2010)

mpatch said:


> I bid a similar job last year for the NFS and it went for $90 an acre. My bid was 130 an acre. 225 acres if I remember correctly. some of it was thick some of it you could easily do 20+ acres in a day with 3 men. same deal though making room for stands of aspen to grow.



Aw come on man.


----------



## treesquirrel (Feb 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> squirrel, I took the site tour & let me tell ya....3 men would never scratch the surface to finish in time, my bid was in the $1800 - $2000 range & I was unsure about finishing on time.
> 
> This is not brush you`re cutting...its trees, brush, multi floral, etc.. & the fact we just had a big snow storm....
> 
> ...



Ouch, yeah, I did not factor in snow. But if I understand its is primarily felling the trees and leaving the access road clear. The handful of clearing jobs I have done around here were primarily pines. You can drop lots of pines in a days time.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Feb 14, 2010)

Could you run an excavator (eg Cat 235) with a chain flail head, with a hand faller to tidy it up?


----------



## lxt (Feb 15, 2010)

All debris is to remain...not even an option of cleanup, machinery access is not possible....it is, but you would destroy what they dont want touched, you would literally need to make a path through the woods to get to some of the sites..thats a no,no

Basically this is like logging with out retrieving the prize!! I thought 3 guys cutting 20 acres with chainsaws was a little out there!!!!!




LXT................


----------



## teamtree (Feb 17, 2010)

Is the machinery no access due to contract stipulations or you just think there is no access? How did you get to the property to check it out?


----------



## teamtree (Feb 17, 2010)

I would go out to the property and check out how they do it.....maybe you can learn something....maybe you will realize it was good not to get it.

I have lost some bids that were similar to that....one in particular...cut 700 trees and I lost the bid to someone who did it for like $3.67 per tree. Half the trees were 4" dbh or less but over 100 were over 20" dbh with at least 20 requiring the tops to be cut out. Our bid was around $12 per tree.

In the end, they worked for like $15 per hour per guy.


----------



## treemandan (Feb 17, 2010)

I know the terrain what grows up there. 2g 's for gas? sounds about right. I would say for 125 an acre idiot is fitting unless they have superpowers I don't know.


----------



## lxt (Feb 18, 2010)

teamtree said:


> Is the machinery no access due to contract stipulations or you just think there is no access? How did you get to the property to check it out?



We drove in on access roads, then walked to the sites...these access roads are literally off road 4x4, The terrain is so steep that standing on the hill to cut the trees would be hard.

The "Dan"...you know the area here, I cant beleive $125 an acre, I might just go watch em to see how its done!!


LXT.................


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 18, 2010)

Schedule a get-together for your region while they will be working on-site. Bring refreshments & food; *you could probably sell tickets and make money!*


----------



## BC WetCoast (Feb 18, 2010)

lxt said:


> We drove in on access roads, then walked to the sites...these access roads are literally off road 4x4, The terrain is so steep that standing on the hill to cut the trees would be hard.
> 
> The "Dan"...you know the area here, I cant beleive $125 an acre, I might just go watch em to see how its done!!
> 
> ...



I don't know how steep is steep in your opinion (it varies), but there are tilt table feller bunchers that can operate on 100% slopes (45 degrees) and could easily clear an acre an hour. They can fall full trees at an acre/hour. Is this what they are planning?


----------



## pdqdl (Feb 18, 2010)

Whether or not that kind of machine would work in that site is a bit irrelevant. Could you transport such a machine to that site and do the work with a high dollar machine for $125/hr? You can pick up a decent used unit for about 100K.

They might loose more money that way than with a crew of men.

Look what I found: http://www.allbusiness.com/agriculture-forestry/forestry-logging-forest-nurseries/304703-1.html

This huge article probably has some useful production numbers that might answer the question. Lots of reading.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Feb 20, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Whether or not that kind of machine would work in that site is a bit irrelevant. Could you transport such a machine to that site and do the work with a high dollar machine for $125/hr? You can pick up a decent used unit for about 100K.
> 
> They might loose more money that way than with a crew of men.
> 
> ...



If one was to assume that you already own the machine, then as long as you can pay for the variable costs, you are better off. If you are losing money on the variable costs, then you should let the machine sit. 

Your fixed costs are sunk, that is, you pay them whether you operate or not. So any many made that is greater than your variable costs will contribute to the fixed costs.


----------



## jsk (Feb 20, 2010)

*low bid*

Im just blown away by this I see low bids all of the time here. But this is just crazy. I wish that I lived closer lxt I would bring a nice big lunch and have some good laughs watching these guys do the clearing. He must be getting his pocket padded in some way that is sneaky, otherwise it just doesnt make sense.

I just lost a job that I was gratful to lose last fall dropping about 60 ash trees. wood removed brush chipped prob a 45 degree slope. I bid for $350 a tree making up loss selling firewood. winning bid was like 75 a tree. he lost big money the guy told me.


----------



## lxt (Feb 21, 2010)

jsk said:


> Im just blown away by this I see low bids all of the time here. But this is just crazy. I wish that I lived closer lxt I would bring a nice big lunch and have some good laughs watching these guys do the clearing. He must be getting his pocket padded in some way that is sneaky, otherwise it just doesnt make sense.
> 
> I just lost a job that I was gratful to lose last fall dropping about 60 ash trees. wood removed brush chipped prob a 45 degree slope. I bid for $350 a tree making up loss selling firewood. winning bid was like 75 a tree. he lost big money the guy told me.




I know, Im bidding some work in that area this week & have to drive by /walk in & see how they`re doing this. I think there is some sneaky money issues here too.



LXT................


----------



## capetrees (Feb 21, 2010)

jsk said:


> Im just blown away by this I see low bids all of the time here. But this is just crazy. I wish that I lived closer lxt I would bring a nice big lunch and have some good laughs watching these guys do the clearing. He must be getting his pocket padded in some way that is sneaky, otherwise it just doesnt make sense.
> 
> I just lost a job that I was gratful to lose last fall dropping about 60 ash trees. wood removed brush chipped prob a 45 degree slope. I bid for $350 a tree making up loss selling firewood. winning bid was like 75 a tree. he lost big money the guy told me.




+1

I can't see how anyone, even on accessable flat land with machinery available could make any money on $125/acre. After paying help, fuel and insurances, where's the profit?


----------



## treemandan (Feb 21, 2010)

lxt said:


> We drove in on access roads, then walked to the sites...these access roads are literally off road 4x4, The terrain is so steep that standing on the hill to cut the trees would be hard.
> 
> The "Dan"...you know the area here, I cant beleive $125 an acre, I might just go watch em to see how its done!!
> 
> ...



Don't forget a camera!


----------



## treemandan (Feb 21, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Whether or not that kind of machine would work in that site is a bit irrelevant. Could you transport such a machine to that site and do the work with a high dollar machine for $125/hr? You can pick up a decent used unit for about 100K.
> 
> They might loose more money that way than with a crew of men.
> 
> ...



Its not 125 per hour unless you can clear an acre and hour but your right anyhow. A machine that can clear a Pittburgh acre in hour probably costs more than 125 per hour to operate.


----------



## lxt (Mar 3, 2010)

Well the company that got the bid is: DCP Forestry.

anyone here ever hear of them? drove out that way the other day & nothing seems to be going on, of course I didnt drive up into the gamelands & by the looks of the access roads no one else did either.

I checked out the bids submitted & couldnt believe what some people would cut an acre for....but the company above, they`re just gonna loose their arses.



LXT................


----------



## wheelloader123 (Mar 3, 2010)

*Government Work*

Guys,
Unfortunately we are seeing this everywhere in the country with clearing and related projects. It's truly insane, I know. Our only hope is that enough of these idiots will get their contracts and go bankrupt! Unfortunately, it seems the government playbook is changing-if they have to go through multiple contractors to get the job done(even if it is behind schecule) it seems not to bother them. They (the government) simply don't pay for incomplete services, keep the performance bonds of each and every deliquent contractor, and the Uncle Sam saves money. I have now seen this happen on numerous occasions where the job was simply impossible to do for the winning bid. Corrupt, Unethical, Evil, Yes! But to keep fueling the fire we have a constant stream of ignorant contractors who got "too big for their britches" a few years ago and are now in dire financial straits.


----------



## kajudude (Mar 3, 2010)

just like the thread states "UNDERBIDING IDIOTS"ran into the same kinda problem 2 days ago not a large acre job just a large oak tree in back yard ,75 ft tall,40 ft spread,aprox 60in diameter at bh half over house,hlf over street i bid 5500.00 guy who got bid 2500.00.iwouldnt have done the job for that no way to remove wood without a lot of saw time or crane rentel i.m.o.wet by the job to take a peek looks like a war zone.know the guy seems like a nice enough fella we talked when i told him what i bid his first reply was S##T.he realized he left that money on the table he will be there another day and a half with his 4 men two trucks and dump trailer that was in a small way better than getting the job.


----------



## fishercat (Mar 3, 2010)

*this needs to happen.*



kajudude said:


> just like the thread states "UNDERBIDING IDIOTS"ran into the same kinda problem 2 days ago not a large acre job just a large oak tree in back yard ,75 ft tall,40 ft spread,aprox 60in diameter at bh half over house,hlf over street i bid 5500.00 guy who got bid 2500.00.iwouldnt have done the job for that no way to remove wood without a lot of saw time or crane rentel i.m.o.wet by the job to take a peek looks like a war zone.know the guy seems like a nice enough fella we talked when i told him what i bid his first reply was S##T.he realized he left that money on the table he will be there another day and a half with his 4 men two trucks and dump trailer that was in a small way better than getting the job.



they will either learn or cease to exist.I just hope it doesn't take as long as I think it's going to to get prices back to where they should be.

the last couple of years I think a lot of tree guys left their employers to make it on their own and are finding out there's a lot more to this than swinging a saw or feeding a chipper.

the other angle is all the landscapers thinking they are going to get some of the glory and riches of doing tree work.

this years is going to break a lot of guys.guys with too much debt or guys working for too low of a wage.


----------



## kajudude (Mar 3, 2010)

fishercat said:


> the other angle is all the landscapers thinking they are going to get some of the glory and riches of doing tree work.
> 
> 
> 
> most landscapers in my area refer us to do there tree work,the biggest problem were having is the dopers that need to support there habit,so ther bidding stupid.the prvious post i made in this thread.that guy was not the lowest,the lowest was 1500.00 DOPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## lxt (Mar 4, 2010)

I checked out the bids for this job & they weere all over the place, they ranged from $7625.00 for 61 acres to over $600,000 for 61 acres.

you can check it out on the following site: www.pgc.state.pa.us

hit the about us tab, go to business center & there are the bids!!, I wouldnt care if I was beat by 10k 15k.....hell, big orange would destroy me, but some of these guys prices are sight unseen......they should really go look, I talked to the lady in charge the other day & she said at least one of the bid contracts is being reopened!!! wonder why?



LXT...................


----------



## vandiesel99 (Mar 4, 2010)

*6100014422*

Go to 6100014422, Agency seeking vendor for tree felling of an estimated of 56,400 trees with diameter breast high ranging from 1" to 18" found on 76 acres (two seperate blocks). 

I like Michael Laveing, he bid this at $2,454,800. 

$32000 per acre


----------



## lxt (Mar 4, 2010)

vandiesel99 said:


> Go to 6100014422, Agency seeking vendor for tree felling of an estimated of 56,400 trees with diameter breast high ranging from 1" to 18" found on 76 acres (two seperate blocks).
> 
> I like Michael Laveing, he bid this at $2,454,800.
> 
> $32000 per acre





I know.....the ranges are crazy!!! although he might be a tad high!! LOL



LXT.............


----------



## kyguy076 (Mar 4, 2010)

*Underbidding*

I was just outbid today on a state job. Taking down and cleaning up 45 trees. On average from 9 dbh to 24 dbh. Anywhere from 40 to 80 ft tall. The park wanted the trees taken down and removed without hurting the surrounding trees or the land. It was in the middle of a state park camp ground. Low bidder was $6600 high bid was 24000. I was right in the middle. I dont see how someone could do the job for that. Not with cost of fuel today.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 4, 2010)

it sounds like the underbidding idiots have lost thier 2 grand? I mean time is getting short on the deadline right?


----------



## ewoolsey (Mar 4, 2010)

what! that is $146.66 a tree, there better be mostly 9" trees ? , i just bid on a job of a big cotton wood that is over 6 feet threw and a 20" ash by house, for $ 1200, haul only tops to field , he said the last guys bid was for only $600 , BUT they never have done it ,its been over a year.


kyguy076 said:


> I was just outbid today on a state job. Taking down and cleaning up 45 trees. On average from 9 dbh to 24 dbh. Anywhere from 40 to 80 ft tall. The park wanted the trees taken down and removed without hurting the surrounding trees or the land. It was in the middle of a state park camp ground. Low bidder was $6600 high bid was 24000. I was right in the middle. I dont see how someone could do the job for that. Not with cost of fuel today.


----------



## kyguy076 (Mar 5, 2010)

22 of the trees were 15 to 18 dbh.


----------



## lxt (Mar 5, 2010)

Yes the time is getting short, deadline is april 15th. when you break it down it becomes even more ridiculous, think about it this way!!

$125.00 an acre  1/8 acre cleared for $15.63...how many trees are on an 1/8 acre in the game lands?? I have the tree census of how many trees there are on each block......when you figure it out DCP forestry is doing almost 50,000 trees give or take @ just under or about .10 cents a tree  

Wow....... im thinking something else is going on?? there is no way that can be right...just cant be! if it is then we are all doomed!!


LXT.............


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2010)

Land clearing around here starts at around 10k per acre. That is cleared though(stumps, logs out, brush gone) not just dropping trees. Now a small outfit might be able to get away doing this Pittsburgh job for what they are charging cause really its just walking ( I mean clambering) through the woods ( I mean overgrown mountainous terrain) with a saw and having at it but right now the deadline is a short month away.
Well that is free enterprise for ya I guess, take it or move to China... oh I forgot we allready did.


----------



## ozarktreeman (Mar 7, 2010)

Just found out what a fed job I bid on in Jan.went for.
It was 80 acres cleared of all cedars in the panhandle of Ok.Had a site visit,all 80 acres was dense with growth,sandy soil,hardwoods to cedar ratio was around 70 % hd 30%cedar.

The bid went for $9600.How the hell can that be done for that amount and make money.$120 an acre.This place was 45 min from nearest fuel and lodging. I had planned on skidding every thing out,chipping majority,and giving logs to locals.at $250 a acre and I was hungry then.

the winning bid went to tejas tree's maybe that's why.


----------

