# Rainy days splicing



## Ghillie (Apr 15, 2009)

Haven't been able to work outside for the last couple of days so I went down to the basement and did some splicing.

Made two lanyards, one 15' with one eye and a 20' with two eyes. Then I made two split tails. All of these are 16 strand XTC Fire.

Here is the end of my homemade 14 ga copper wire fid (soldered the whole length to keep from wedging fibers). I have a snare made of a strand from the core of the rope fed through the end. I am ready to insert it into the rope and feed it back to the insertion point of the sheath bury.












Fid and snare inserted into the rope up to the loop handle, carefull to keep the ends of the doubled over wire out of the rope. I will smooth the ends of the wire to prevent accidental snagging.






End of fid out of the rop and snare around the end of the sheath ready to be inserted back into the rope.






I pulled the fid completely out of the rope leaving the snare inside of it, then snugged it up to the rope. I did not use any kind of hitch to connect to the sheath, it is just doubled over the loop of the snare.


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

I attached the pull end of the snare to an anchor I rigged to the ceiling.






Worked the snare and sheath into the rope.






Once the sheath was pulled through to where it starts to overlaps the core inside the rope, I pulled on the exposed section of the core. The inserted sheath is still doubled over the snare inside the rope.






Sharp tugs on the core pulls the sheath through the overlap area and back out of the rope.






And here are the fruits of my labor. Only one of the eyes is whip lock stitched in this picture.


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

Ends of the 20' lanyard whip locked. I should have some 8mm Ice arriving tomorrow to rig up with a swivel eye 'biner as self tending adjuster with a distel hitch.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2009)

You are obviously a man of many talents my friend. Looks good!


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

tree md said:


> You are obviously a man of many talents my friend. Looks good!



Thanks, I am by no means an expert on splicing. I just started a couple of weeks ago but I hope to keep learning.

I left a lot of details on the splice out of the post because I know it is no substitute for manufacturers recomendations.

This is just my technique for getting through the toughest part of this particular splice. It took me about 8 hours and 30' of rope to figure this out on my own.

I have about 40-45 minutes in each eye now with the stitching. Practice, practice, practice!


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## pdqdl (Apr 16, 2009)

That is some particularly pretty whipping.

What are you writing on it?


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> That is some particularly pretty whipping.
> 
> What are you writing on it?



month/year, length on the lanyards, and my initials.

Marker kind of bled a little.

I am just experimenting with the shrink wrap to see if it has any use.

EDIT: Oh, and I cross my 0's to differ them from O's and my Z's to differ from 2's. Doesn't make much difference when the ink bleeds does it?


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## Blakesmaster (Apr 16, 2009)

Looks great, man!


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## Tree Pig (Apr 16, 2009)

My fingers hurt just looking at that


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## masiman (Apr 16, 2009)

Very nice Ghillie. Couldn't rep ya, gotta spread the luv more .

I ordered the BT wand and video, it should be here any day.

To make your fid, did you actually solder all that or did you use a propane torch?


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

masiman said:


> Very nice Ghillie. Couldn't rep ya, gotta spread the luv more .
> 
> I ordered the BT wand and video, it should be here any day.
> 
> To make your fid, did you actually solder all that or did you use a propane torch?



Thanks for the luv! (or at least the thought!) LOL..

I "sweated" it with a propane torch.


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## Adkpk (Apr 16, 2009)

Looking good there hillie. Thanks for the step by step pics.


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## Ghillie (Apr 16, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Looking good there hillie. Thanks for the step by step pics.



Thanks, I had tried to explain the snare technique in some ealrier posts and the way it came out it even confused me. Pictures were the solution.


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## moray (Apr 17, 2009)

Great photos, Ghillie! With a presentation like that, you are bound to get a following of new splicers. Nice work!


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## Ghillie (Apr 17, 2009)

moray said:


> Great photos, Ghillie! With a presentation like that, you are bound to get a following of new splicers. Nice work!



Thanks, I really enjoy making my own gear instead of making do with what's in a catalog.

Plus I saved a bunch of money at $20 a splice.

I have about 16' of Ice I am going to try to make some eye and eye prusiks out of on Sunday.


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## Ghillie (Apr 19, 2009)

*Eye and eye prusiks*

How do they look. One is 36", it was the first one and I wasn't sure how much rope to start with. Next one was 32".... I was shooting for 28" but my math wasn't right. Tried the both on a hitch climber rig in my basement, seemed to work great, I would just like to shorten the gap between the hitch and the pulley a little.











Opinions, critiques or suggestions?


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## moray (Apr 19, 2009)

You could hang a truck from one of those.

Did you have any trouble making the second locked Brummel? How about cutting the yarns to make the taper--what tool did you use?


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## Ghillie (Apr 19, 2009)

moray said:


> You could hang a truck from one of those.
> 
> Did you have any trouble making the second locked Brummel? How about cutting the yarns to make the taper--what tool did you use?



Thanks, I have been told I am "like a truck"...LOL.

I thought the second brummel was going to be tough but it was not bad with loose braid compared to 16strand.

For a fid, I used 14 ga copper again, bent it the same way and didn't solder it. I inserted the wire into the rope in the same way I want the tail to go. Then I pulled a snare (core from the 16 strand splicing) back through the rope. I then just use the snare, no wire, to pull the tail through the brummel.

The second brummel, I pulled a leg of the snare out of the rope, fed it through the eye of the other end of the prusik (the first eye you splice) then fed the leg of the snare back through the rope, knotted it and with constant pressure, manipulated the braid to get the eye to pass through.

I'm glad you asked about the taper in the overlap. Per instructions, I had 3 1/2" on each end to taper. I had 6 strands to taper so I cut 2 at 1 3/4" and two at 3 1/2". The other two where cut to length when I marked them at the extraction point. I think next time I will cut one strand each at 11/16", 1 3/8", 2 1/16" and 2 3/4" ( Those are not exact, I didn't want to divide it out into 32nds but you get the idea). You can't really see the bump where the strands end in the overlap but I can feel them.

Do you have any suggestions with the taper?

The fibers weren't too bad to cut with fiskers scissors. I already have a set for sewing but I will have to get some dedicated for cutting this stuff. A really interesting fiber.


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## canopyboy (Apr 20, 2009)

I joined this site today purely to look at the pictures. I'm expecting some velocity to show up today, and I want to make the splices myself. Not so much because I don't want to pay $20 each (although that helps), but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. I've been splicing single braid (and of course 3 strand) for years, but was wondering how it was going to work with the velocity.

Anyhow, nice pictures and nice work.


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> I joined this site today purely to look at the pictures. I'm expecting some velocity to show up today, and I want to make the splices myself. Not so much because I don't want to pay $20 each (although that helps), but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. I've been splicing single braid (and of course 3 strand) for years, but was wondering how it was going to work with the velocity.
> 
> Anyhow, nice pictures and nice work.




Welcome to the site!!

What kind of tools do you use for splicing?

Post some pics of your results, velocity is on my project list and anything to shorten my learning curve is welcomed.

Stay safe!


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## canopyboy (Apr 20, 2009)

I've got a set of Samson fids. Other than that a variety of bent and sometimes soldered wire ... and patience. Lots of patience. My goal today was to get some ideas as to what other people use.

I'll post pictures when I get the velocity to work for me. It might be a couple days - depends on how much patience I'll need for the job at hand and how long I can hide from the family in the basement undisturbed.


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## pdqdl (Apr 21, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> I joined this site today purely to look at the pictures. I'm expecting some velocity to show up today, and I want to make the splices myself. Not so much because I don't want to pay $20 each (although that helps), but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. I've been splicing single braid (and of course 3 strand) for years, but was wondering how it was going to work with the velocity.
> 
> Anyhow, nice pictures and nice work.



Good luck with the velocity. Let us know how that goes, because I had some very poor results with my efforts. Moray differed with his experience, so we will be anxious to hear from you.

My experience with velocity: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=95306&highlight=splicing+velocity


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## canopyboy (Apr 21, 2009)

Ok, I got some time last night and this is the first Velocity splice.

Next time I think I might wear mechanics' gloves, as I could crack a safe with my finger tips right now. It's definitely do-able, but maybe not for the faint of heart. That outer braid is tight, even once I got it wet.

I'm sure it will hold a truck, but I also think I could improve the process and the finished product a bit on the next go. I have 3 more to do, I'll try to post another picture of the last one next to the first once I get it done.


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## pdqdl (Apr 21, 2009)

Yep, that is a pretty nice looking splice.

I think my Velocity rope is wrapped too tight. Was that 10 mm, or the larger size?

Looking at your splice, do you see the slight constriction on the top side of the eye, just to the left of the re-insertion point? On my splice, that constriction is so tight it deforms the eye. It reduces the diameter of rope in the eye at that point by at lease 1/4th.

There are only two possibilities for my problem resolution: either figure out how to get more slack in the cover, or figure out how to make a tighter core/cover crossover.

Since you and Moray have pulled it off, I'll just presume that I need to improve my technique somewhere. I've been doing double braid for some time now, so I am clueless how to improve my efforts. 

Patience....



Practice...




More patience...


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## pdqdl (Apr 21, 2009)

Another thought, if you are doing 10 mm line: How far down the rope are you doing the tie-off knot?

As I recall, Samson specifies 11 times the diameter of the rope for a 1/2 fid length, 22x for a full fid. 5 fid lengths from x would be 1100mm=43 inches.

I think I'll try tying the knot further down the line.


Gee, was that a pun?


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## canopyboy (Apr 21, 2009)

Ok, when I start something new, I become obsessed with it for awhile. I had taken my rope with me to work to take a picture and post this morning, and threw my toolbag in as well in case I had some time to kill during lunch.

Well, lunch went a little long today (45min) as I put another loop in the other end of my new velocity line. The line itself was just a scrap from Wesspur to make some split tails out of. To answer your question, this it the 11mm velocity. Samson's site doesn't list a 10mm, and I can't find one online unless it's Sterling Velocity 9.8mm.

This second one went much faster, and I think came out much nicer. It's not lockstitched yet, but the picture is attached.

I'm following Samson's double braid splicing instructions -- well, kind of. I tie a figure 8 loop as a stopper knot about 5 ft. I don't think this dimension is critical. You want enough room to milk back the outer braid while not letting it go too far up the rope. The figure 8 also has the advantage of letting me put my foot in it to help with the last step.

I measure off like the instructions show, pulling the core and tapering the cover. After inserting the cover into the core, I tie it off with a piece of scrap so it doesn't pull out while I'm fighting with the rest of the line on the next step. You can't use the fid to tuck the core back in. At least not between what they have labeled as X and Z. I took some 40lb spectra fishing line and made a loop in the end. Twist that loop into smaller loops and put the end of the core through. Pull and adjust into a finger trap like setup. A little bit of tape to cover the end helps. Then I used a homemade wire fid to pull the fishing line through. Attach the fishing line to something and wet the line between X and Z. Work the core through. Brute force isn't the answer, you have to massage it through.

I had much better luck this time because of two things. First, when tucking the braid and core I made sure everything laid out nice and straight and came in and out on the right side so there would be no twisting when I pulled it together. Second, when burying the core, I kept tension on the crossover with my left hand while working the cover up with my right. This kept the core from bunching up at the crossover.

I don't know if this helps you or not.

BTW, how does one insert the picture directly into my post, instead of as an attachment?


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## pdqdl (Apr 21, 2009)

Two notes from me:

1. Ooops. 11mm line. That is correct. When I bought ours, it seemed to me that there was a 1/2" line for sale as well.

2. You put your tie-off knot further back than me, which might help generate more slack when I try to pull the cover over the crossover. I suppose it might make more slack on reinsertion of the core, too.

You're absolutely right about not inserting the tubular fid in to re-insert the core.

Did you taper your core for reinsertion, or did you manage to force it through? I simply could not get it to reinsert past x, and I never made it to "Z".


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## canopyboy (Apr 21, 2009)

No, I didn't taper the core. I actually found that the tape was the "stickiest" part to pull through, and minimizing it to just the end seemed to help. I tried it without tape, but the fibers would catch and double back over making it too big to get through. Just moderate tension on the snare, wet the cover, and work the cover over the end of the core. It will come out eventually.


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

Nice looking splices!

I want to get some velocity for spare bridges for my harnesses.... I may just get enough to try some splicing.

BTW, canopyboy, Here is the "posting pics for dummies" thread. Parrisw did all the work.


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## teacherman (Apr 21, 2009)

Nice work, Ghillie!
So do you actually weave the sheath strands back in, or is it a tie off a ways back down the line? I see the whip stitch, nice work nice touch on the heat shrink! Is that done with the core strands? I have never spliced, never had a climbing rope apart, so please forgive dumb questions.

ROck climbing rope is often marked with a special marker designed for that purpose, something about chemicals in the marker solvent. I would like to learn a bit of splicing, my prussiks have big knots in them.

Thanks for posting the pics!


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

teacherman said:


> Nice work, Ghillie!
> So do you actually weave the sheath strands back in, or is it a tie off a ways back down the line? I see the whip stitch, nice work nice touch on the heat shrink! Is that done with the core strands? I have never spliced, never had a climbing rope apart, so please forgive dumb questions.
> 
> ROck climbing rope is often marked with a special marker designed for that purpose, something about chemicals in the marker solvent. I would like to learn a bit of splicing, my prussiks have big knots in them.
> ...



Thanks!

The sheath on a 16 strand splice is buried a total of 33 inches up through the rope from the insertion point.

I used core strands because they stretched a lot less than anything I had laying around and there are plenty left over after the splice ( about 60 " of core is removed for the splice)

You should use a rub-a-dub clothing marker, I can't remember the name of the chemical in sharpies that could be bad for ropes.

There are no stupid questions....just stupid people!  (not saying you are one of them, I am just saying)

Oh, the heat shrink I had bought a few years ago for another project and never used it. I thought I would shrink some of the stitching and leave some bare to see how it wears. I also have some waterproof paper that I will start sticking under the shrink to identify some pertinent data about the splice. Not sure what is pertinent yet...


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## canopyboy (Apr 21, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> BTW, canopyboy, Here is the "posting pics for dummies" thread. Parrisw did all the work.



Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.

BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.
> 
> BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?



It is called reputation, go to your control panel and look around. You just got some.

If you search for "reputation" in off-topic forum, you should be able to find out the specifics.

Some people make a big deal about how much rep they have, some don't... I am not going to say which group I fit into.

Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?


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## canopyboy (Apr 21, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?



I honestly don't know enough about either to say why one is better than the other for any reason besides personal preference. But the way I understand it, they both serve the same purpose. They don't add to the strength under load, but keep things from coming apart over time, etc. The lock stitch to me seems to be less obtrusive in the finished product. Whip locking looks cooler though. What are your thoughts, I noticed you whip locked in your pictures?


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## Adkpk (Apr 21, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> , but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. .



Same here and to make it mine of course. Nice splice.


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## pdqdl (Apr 21, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> ......................
> 
> Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?



A lock stitch is the proper way to secure a double braid splice, as both the inner and outer parts of the rope are holding the load on the eye. The lock stitch is there to hold the splice when it is NOT carrying a load

A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load. It is entirely a different story, however, when a double braid splice has no load. Bouncing around loose in a tool box can loosen a splice enough for it to pull apart gently, especially if you pull on the eye while holding the cover right beneath the eye.


Conversely, a whipping below the eye is the proper way to secure a 16 braid splice because it causes the cover to choke down onto the inserted part of the rope at it's earliest point. It is the "binding" of the outer part near the eye that causes the rest of the rope to choke down on the rest of the inserted splice. It's not that a conventional lock stitch wouldn't do the job; rather, the whipping does it so much better and more evenly.

Ghillie: those beautiful lock/whips that you do on your splices are probably best of all for 16 braid: they do a splendid job of choking the cover onto the inserted tail, and the lock stitch buries the ends of the whipping to keep it from coming undone. The lock stitch included certainly can't hurt, either.

Years ago we made dog leashes at an animal hospital out of polypropylene (cheap, ski-rope) single braid. They never came un-done, and we wouldn't have considered whipping them. We only inserted the tail into the cover about 8", then reversed the core capturing a few strands of the cover and then ran it back up the middle toward the eye. But then, we weren't hanging 40' up a tree from them, either. 

[Why were we making them so often? The dogs were fond of fighting us, rolling over, and biting the rope in half. We were busy at the same time with lifting them up, choking them, and throwing them into a cage, etc.]


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## moray (Apr 21, 2009)

Nice thread, guys! Good detailed technical stuff. 



pdqdl said:


> A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load...



I would add to this that none of the other rope constructions needs any help from a whipping or stitching, either. Some people worry about the almost impossible scenario where the eye is unevenly loaded and the entire tension is on the buried leg. In 12-strand rope this will pull the splice apart. The remedy is stitching, not whipping. I have done experiments with unevenly loaded 12-strand that show that just 4 stitches of 2-lb. test sewing thread did far more to hold the splice together than a whipping made of 5 or 6 tight wraps of much heavier cord.



pdqdl said:


> Conversely, a whipping below the eye is the proper way to secure a 16 braid splice because it causes the cover to choke down onto the inserted part of the rope at it's earliest point. It is the "binding" of the outer part near the eye that causes the rest of the rope to choke down on the rest of the inserted splice. It's not that a conventional lock stitch wouldn't do the job; rather, *the whipping does it so much better *and more evenly...



I take mild issue with the phrase in bold. I would point out that beyond the experimental evidence that shows how much better stitching performs, there is a theoretical problem with a whipping that is meant to prevent the core slipping out. Under heavy tension the rope, including the thick splice under the whipping, will shrink in diameter. The whipping is no longer squeezing as hard as it was, and may not be squeezing at all! The stitching, on the other hand, provides a mechanical barrier to any movement of the core, and does not depend on friction at all. I admire a beautiful whipping as much as the next guy, but I think of them as pretty much useless decoration. Now if you put the whipping right on top of the stitching, there could be some value in that, as you would know your stitching was intact as long as the whipping was also intact.

Lastly, it is worth remembering that 12-strand is much looser than the other constructions, and therefore much more prone to come apart. Stitching is absolutely required for a 12-strand splice. When I make splices in 16-strand or double braid I do stitch them, but I always wonder to myself if there is any imaginable scenario in which the stitching will actually do anything. Until I know it is useless I will continue to do the prudent thing and put the stitching in...


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## Slvrmple72 (Apr 21, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.
> 
> BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?



Welcome to the site! Lot of good people on here to help answer questions and offer great advice. The green dots are reputation points and they accrue with good responses from other fellow ASers tagging the "scale" at the bottom of your sign on... unless you become a complete horses ass and then you get negative rep and go from green to red. Here is some green rep from me to you. Spend it wisely! The stuff is more valuable than gold! Great job on the velocity spliced eye!

Don't get sucked into the political thread, least of all when imbibing too much!-Kevin


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## Ghillie (Apr 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> A lock stitch is the proper way to secure a double braid splice, as both the inner and outer parts of the rope are holding the load on the eye. The lock stitch is there to hold the splice when it is NOT carrying a load
> 
> A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load. It is entirely a different story, however, when a double braid splice has no load. Bouncing around loose in a tool box can loosen a splice enough for it to pull apart gently, especially if you pull on the eye while holding the cover right beneath the eye.
> 
> ###Edited for brevity###



The Yale kit I bought to start this whole learning process recommended the whip lock for double braid.

That being said, I think the lock stitch is more secure. There is no way I would expect just whipping to do the job, the locks over the whipping make it acceptable to me (in 16 strand ) . 

The splice I did in the Icetail, I wouldn't dream of just whip locking it.

It dissapoints me how ugly that the lockstitching comes out on the Icetail but I can work on that. And besides, it is an ugly splice to begin with when you get all the fibers showing that would not take dye because of the nature of aramid fibers.


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## pdqdl (Apr 22, 2009)

Ease up there, Moray! I'm just quoting (sort-of) from the Samson Book. I'm not in the habit of pulling apart my splices like you are.

You should have a little more respect for securing the splices, too. I had a double braid splice come apart on me while I was in a tree. It was scary! My _whipping_ failed to hold the cover tight, and it pulled apart in my hands, 25' up a tree. I didn't own a needle to do proper lock stitching with, and I thought whipping was good enough. The splice was a year or two old, and I didn't inspect it before the climb.

I never did another splice in double braid until I bought a stitching needle.


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## moray (Apr 22, 2009)

pdqdl, that is scary! 

The reason I tend to think double braid and 16-strand are more or less immune to coming apart is that they are so tight to begin with. You yourself entertained us all with your hilarious description of how tight they are. That extremely tight throat in these constructions does the very same job that stitching does: it holds everything together until rope tension generates the Chinese finger cuff effect.

Any other details on your mishap? Type of rope? Maybe the throat area softens up over time, though I haven't noticed that with any of mine.


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## Ghillie (Apr 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Ease up there, Moray! I'm just quoting (sort-of) from the Samson Book. I'm not in the habit of pulling apart my splices like you are.
> 
> You should have a little more respect for securing the splices, too. I had a double braid splice come apart on me while I was in a tree. It was scary! My _whipping_ failed to hold the cover tight, and it pulled apart in my hands, 25' up a tree. I didn't own a needle to do proper lock stitching with, and I thought whipping was good enough. The splice was a year or two old, and I didn't inspect it before the climb.
> 
> I never did another splice in double braid until I bought a stitching needle.



Wow, that is scary. Another lesson learned, I am glad to hear it was not a painfull one.


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## pdqdl (Apr 22, 2009)

1/2" Stable braid, on a double length lanyard, two eyes and a prussic loop in the middle.

It was one of my first splices, and was assembled with the proper instructions, but I did not have any fids to use as a measuring device. 

I know for a certainty that the core re-bury was not as long as it should have been, since it could be felt ending inside the eye. According to the book, that is not supposed to be a problem.


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## moray (Apr 22, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> ...I know for a certainty that the core re-bury was not as long as it should have been, since it could be felt ending inside the eye. According to the book, that is not supposed to be a problem.



Do you mean the crossover never got buried? If so, the throat may never have been very tight.


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## pdqdl (Apr 22, 2009)

No, NO!

The crossover was buried, but the tail of the buried core was not as long as the entire eye. In fact, it was only about 3/4 of the eye.


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## canopyboy (Apr 22, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> lock stitch instead of whip lock?



Wow, this has been an insightful discussion on finishing a splice. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm hoping to finish the rest of my splices tonight. And while I'm sure there is plenty of core buried, I think I'll inspect them before each climb now too.


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## pdqdl (Apr 23, 2009)

Samson says right in their splicing book that the buried core in the eye is not essential to the strength of the splice; the two sides of the cover that form the eye are strong enough.

If you get the buried core length right, it makes a prettier eye. Core-less eyes are flat and droopy.


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## moray (Apr 23, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> No, NO!
> 
> The crossover was buried, but the tail of the buried core was not as long as the entire eye. In fact, it was only about 3/4 of the eye.



Ah, I was confused before, but I can see clearly now...

So the buried part of the core in the throat of the splice, between X and Z, was MISSING??? Well, now we're getting somewhere. So the throat of your problem splice was probably loose as a goose because it was missing some of its stuffing. Since it was also missing the stitching, its a wonder it ever held anything. It didn't lack strength, as you point out, but it lacked security. Your story is a vivid reminder to everyone that the splice throat is vital--it better be tight or it better be well stitched.


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## pdqdl (Apr 23, 2009)

Um, well,....yeah. 

That about sums it all up. I wouldn't say the throat was loose when spliced, but over a year or two it certainly got loose enough to separate.


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## canopyboy (Apr 24, 2009)

A little closure... found the time to finish all of the splices. The first one was a learning curve. I think it's fine, but the others came out better and I just made another to replace the first.












Time to go climb with it.


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## Ghillie (Apr 24, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> A little closure... found the time to finish all of the splices. The first one was a learning curve. I think it's fine, but the others came out better and I just made another to replace the first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice looking splices canopyboy! I haven't tried to do any tight eyes with Class I rope yet but I noticed a spot on my XTC that looks like I nicked it with something. I am going to cut it out and resplice it so I might try a tighter eye to clean things up.

Any tips on making a tight eye with 16 strand?


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## moray (Apr 24, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> ...Any tips on making a tight eye with 16 strand?



No difference, really. It's the only kind I make anymore, and I can't even think of a good reason for a big eye in a climbing line. 

You seem to have a really nice rig for pulling everything home. Next time I do a tough splice I will have to set up a rig something like yours.


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## Ghillie (Apr 24, 2009)

moray said:


> No difference, really. It's the only kind I make anymore, and I can't even think of a good reason for a big eye in a climbing line.
> 
> You seem to have a really nice rig for pulling everything home. Next time I do a tough splice I will have to set up a rig something like yours.



Thanks. I did not think there would be much of a diffence.

I think the static anchor and being able to use your body weight really made a difference.


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## Adkpk (Apr 25, 2009)

Nice eyes canopy boy. What is that length of rope for? It looks a little short for a climbing line.


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## canopyboy (Apr 25, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Nice eyes canopy boy. What is that length of rope for? It looks a little short for a climbing line.



Double ended lanyard for moving around in the canopy. 45ft long. I've wanted to try it since reading about Sillett's spider rope in The Wild Trees. Yeah, too short to climb with. Just a side project to keep my self entertained.

I don't like to put eyes in my climbing rope, seems like I have more trouble getting them stuck and through tree savers than it's worth.


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## Adkpk (Apr 26, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> Double ended lanyard for moving around in the canopy. 45ft long. I've wanted to try it since reading about Sillett's spider rope in The Wild Trees. Yeah, too short to climb with. Just a side project to keep my self entertained.
> 
> I don't like to put eyes in my climbing rope, seems like I have more trouble getting them stuck and through tree savers than it's worth.



Interesting. Here's what I use. I thought I was the only one. Although I am getting more used to using the tail end of my rope.


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## canopyboy (Apr 26, 2009)

Using the tail of the rope works for me if I need it, but I liked the idea of leaving the main climbing rope rigged high and moving around on a shorter line. I tried it out yesterday and climbed a small silver maple. Started on the ground and just used the new set up to move up the tree, from one side of the canopy to the other and then drop back down on the other side. 'Course, I'm limited with moving my tie in to about 20 feet at a time. Not sure I can throw and retrieve much farther than that though. Plus it was easy to stay tied in at two places and be well positioned for a cut or other work where you want a bit of stability from two lines.

The moral is I love my new double lanyard and highly recommend it. But everyone has their own way.


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## Ghillie (Apr 26, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> Using the tail of the rope works for me if I need it, but I liked the idea of leaving the main climbing rope rigged high and moving around on a shorter line. I tried it out yesterday and climbed a small silver maple. Started on the ground and just used the new set up to move up the tree, from one side of the canopy to the other and then drop back down on the other side. 'Course, I'm limited with moving my tie in to about 20 feet at a time. Not sure I can throw and retrieve much farther than that though. Plus it was easy to stay tied in at two places and be well positioned for a cut or other work where you want a bit of stability from two lines.
> 
> The moral is I love my new double lanyard and highly recommend it. But everyone has their own way.



That is what I want to try out, a shorter section for moving about. I have been double crotching a lot with my other 120' climbing rope but it becomes a mess quickly.

My last purchase was 120' of XTC that I made two lanyards and two splittails out of. I should have 60' left to put eyes on and use it for the second attachment point.


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## Adkpk (Apr 26, 2009)

It's definitely a lot easier to throw the snap end of the lanyard as opposed to the end of the climbing line. I will post a pic of my new retrieval tool later.


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## canopyboy (Apr 26, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> It's definitely a lot easier to throw the snap end of the lanyard as opposed to the end of the climbing line. I will post a pic of my new retrieval tool later.



I agree that throwing a snap or biner end is more convenient then using a throw bag while in the tree and much easier than throwing the plain end of the climbing rope over. And the shorter length is way easier to manage than a the loop in a 150' climbing line.

My buddy just ordered one of those sidekick rope retrieval sticks, we'll see how it works, I also just had a mini grapple from New Tribe show up I was planning to use with this lanyard but haven't had the chance yet. I'm interested to see what you use.


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## Adkpk (Apr 27, 2009)

Grapple hook


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## moss (Apr 27, 2009)

That double ended lanyard is plenty long enough to climb in the crown of any conifer and will work fine for plenty of hardwoods.

One problem with it is that you have to untie and retie your Blakes for each pitch. Probably best to anchor the end of each split tail to your harness so you have the biner on the end of each side of your lanyard free to throw over the next branch as you work your way up.

I prefer a biner over a snap because getting a snap in the face hurts a lot more than an aluminum biner. Not that I've been hit but I watched a friend take a steel biner in the face pulling his lanyard back though a crotch. I just wrap the biner in a monkey fist to throw over the next limb, the extra weight of a snap or steel biner isn't really needed.

The major problem with that type of long double-ended lanyard is that the loop is always getting hung below you, especially on conifers where there are usually stubs below.

My current strategy is a long and short lanyard, each with the tail hanging free, and alt climb with that. For the longer lanyard I choose a length based on the climb situation could be 40 ft. or 60 ft. The lanyard is configured on the spot as needed.

Here are my two lanyards for a tall conifer climb. The long lanyard is on the right, The split tail/hitch will be tied below the "pipe" when I start climbing. The long lanyard is about 50 ft., short one about 15 ft. I use the same hitch configuration on the long one (as on the short lanyard.)






Ok, back to splices 
-moss


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## Ghillie (Apr 27, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> Grapple hook



I see you read Silvermaple's post about the grapple. I already bent and then broke one of the tines on mine. I bought some M5x.8 shoulder bolts to make some more tines.


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## canopyboy (Apr 27, 2009)

moss said:


> That double ended lanyard is plenty long enough to climb in the crown of any conifer and will work fine for plenty of hardwoods.
> 
> One problem with it is that you have to untie and retie your Blakes for each pitch. Probably best to anchor the end of each split tail to your harness so you have the biner on the end of each side of your lanyard free to throw over the next branch as you work your way up.
> Ok, back to splices
> ...



There is no need to untie the Blakes. You slide the Blake on the end you're using back to give you enough length in the lanyard to go over the branch and back. You throw over the lanyard/biner and then clip the biner into the split tail and your harness. To undo the other end and move to the next pitch, unclip that biner from your harness, remove the split tail from it, and adjust the Blake's position as necessary before tossing the lanyard end over your next branch. As long as you never unclip both biners at the same time, you're always tied in. No need to ever untie the Blakes except to clean/inspect. 

I can manage the extra length in a small rope bag on the back of my belt that I carry the lanyard in when not in use. Although so far it looks like my loop never really hangs down more than about 15 ft at a time, which makes it fairly easy to manage.

I don't think it's much different than your setup Moss, if you tied the butt ends of your two lanyards together and swapped the VTs for Blakes. (Not considering the tubes.) The advantage from my pov is that as I traverse I let out on one end and pull in on the other, essentially switching which is my short and long lanyard. I want to play around with it some more, but have been toying with the idea of switching the Blakes to VTs.


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## canopyboy (Apr 27, 2009)

BTW Moss, how do you get those tubes up and over the branch when you're throwing the lanyard over? I have no problem doing it when I'm pulling my rope over with a throwline. But if I'm throwing over the lanyard, it seems I would need to have some extra length after retrieving the biner end to pull it up or make the lanyard into a loop in order to set the tree saver tube. It would definitely be desirable when climbing conifers or anything else that gums up your rope though.

I'm still a bit new to this site, at what point have we moved away from splicing enough that we should start a new thread?


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## Adkpk (Apr 27, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> I see you read Silvermaple's post about the grapple. I already bent and then broke one of the tines on mine. I bought some M5x.8 shoulder bolts to make some more tines.



Yes, you got it. Good advice on the replacement tine. I'll start the lanyard thread.


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## moss (Apr 28, 2009)

Hmmm.. not getting your explanation. Looking at your system I'd have to slip either the split tail eye or the lanyard eye off the biner to advance the end of the lanyard over the next branch. For your lanyard I'd attach the split tail eye directly to my harness (not the same biner on the lanyard eye) so the rope eye/biner were free to put over the next branch.
-moss




canopyboy said:


> There is no need to untie the Blakes. You slide the Blake on the end you're using back to give you enough length in the lanyard to go over the branch and back. You throw over the lanyard/biner and then clip the biner into the split tail and your harness. To undo the other end and move to the next pitch, unclip that biner from your harness, remove the split tail from it, and adjust the Blake's position as necessary before tossing the lanyard end over your next branch. As long as you never unclip both biners at the same time, you're always tied in. No need to ever untie the Blakes except to clean/inspect.
> 
> I can manage the extra length in a small rope bag on the back of my belt that I carry the lanyard in when not in use. Although so far it looks like my loop never really hangs down more than about 15 ft at a time, which makes it fairly easy to manage.
> 
> I don't think it's much different than your setup Moss, if you tied the butt ends of your two lanyards together and swapped the VTs for Blakes. (Not considering the tubes.) The advantage from my pov is that as I traverse I let out on one end and pull in on the other, essentially switching which is my short and long lanyard. I want to play around with it some more, but have been toying with the idea of switching the Blakes to VTs.


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## moss (Apr 28, 2009)

Be glad to join the lanyard conversation in a new thread when it starts.

For the long lanyard the sleeve is installed same as if from the ground. For the short lanyard it depends on the situation, I might put a slip knot behind it to position on the branch or I might put it in by hand. 

I climb in white pine quite a bit so the sleeves are a big help protecting the rope from sap and the upper pine branches from the rope. Young white pine branches have very thin bark.
-moss




canopyboy said:


> BTW Moss, how do you get those tubes up and over the branch when you're throwing the lanyard over? I have no problem doing it when I'm pulling my rope over with a throwline. But if I'm throwing over the lanyard, it seems I would need to have some extra length after retrieving the biner end to pull it up or make the lanyard into a loop in order to set the tree saver tube. It would definitely be desirable when climbing conifers or anything else that gums up your rope though.
> 
> I'm still a bit new to this site, at what point have we moved away from splicing enough that we should start a new thread?


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## moss (Apr 28, 2009)

I used to use a double-ended lanyard but found I was spending too much time pulling rope through the hitches. Long lanyard crosses large vertical gaps and allows me to rappel out of the top in less pitches. The short lanyard provides life attachment while I'm advancing the long. With tails hanging down unencumbered no twist is captured, very few rope hangups below. A rope bag works for carrying the loop on a double-ended lanyard but I'm working hard to minimize gear on my harness.

A closed split tail is nice on a lanyard, most importantly it gives you one-handed operation for tightening up the lanyard. You can release it one handed as well depending on how you're hanging. VT is too sloppy for me, I use an XT which has VT performance without the slop. Mileage varies with closed split tail hitches, everyone has their favorite.
-moss




canopyboy said:


> I don't think it's much different than your setup Moss, if you tied the butt ends of your two lanyards together and swapped the VTs for Blakes. (Not considering the tubes.) The advantage from my pov is that as I traverse I let out on one end and pull in on the other, essentially switching which is my short and long lanyard. I want to play around with it some more, but have been toying with the idea of switching the Blakes to VTs.


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## canopyboy (Apr 28, 2009)

Moss - I think you've got it, but I also think that it just doesn't seem right to you. Only talking about one end of the lanyard at a time, there is a single 'biner through the split tail eye, the lanyard eye, and my harness. Remembering that I'm tied in on the second end of the lanyard before advancing, I unclip my harness and like you said unclip the split tail from the 'biner. I toss over the lanyard with the 'biner for a bit of extra weight, bring it back and reattach the split tail and then the whole thing to my harness. So far it's been very efficient and effective for me, but each to his own.

I try to avoid having a bunch of carabiners on my harness tie-in, and if I have the lanyard and split tail separate I would have at least 4 clipped in when I was using both ends of the lanyard. I guess I could see both split tails permanently clipped in with only a 3rd 'biner. Maybe I'll give that a try for giggles.

And thanks for the rest of your explanations. Always trying to improve a bit, and seeing what other people do helps.


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## moss (Apr 28, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> ....and like you said unclip the split tail from the 'biner. I toss over the lanyard with the 'biner for a bit of extra weight, bring it back and reattach the split tail and then the whole thing to my harness.



Ok, we're on the same page. 
-moss


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## canopyboy (Apr 28, 2009)

moss said:


> VT is too sloppy for me, I use an XT which has VT performance without the slop.



Can you help enlighten me to what an XT is and what makes it different from a VT?


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## moss (Apr 28, 2009)

canopyboy said:


> Can you help enlighten me to what an XT is and what makes it different from a VT?



XT crosses below the coils before you start the braid, holds it's shape better. VT collapses too much for my taste when it's not loaded.

XT hitch photos

Photos show a 5-wrap and 4-wrap coil, I climb a 4-wrap w/8mm Beeline on Tachyon.
-moss

Edit: the pre-fab eye n' eye prusik cords aren't going to be the right length for your configuration, best to tie with double overhand noose knots to tune the length, then order (or make the splice yourself) based on what length you settle on. I stick with tied eyes, I like the way they grab the biner tight, the spliced eyes tend to stretch a little over time and move around on the biner.


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## canopyboy (Apr 28, 2009)

Thanks, seems like I've seen that before, but wasn't able to find it anywhere once you mentioned it.

Back to splices:

I was thinking of keeping with tied eyes for a couple reasons. Aside from being able to tune the length, you mention keeping it tight on the carabiner. But I was also looking at the splice length. I have some of Ultra Tech and flipped through Samson's Class 2 splicing directions. After you splice both ends, you have a core that doubles almost the entire length of the prusik lanyard, making it quite a bit stiffer I would think.


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## iliketrees (Oct 11, 2010)

Ghillie said:


> I see you read Silvermaple's post about the grapple. I already bent and then broke one of the tines on mine. I bought some M5x.8 shoulder bolts to make some more tines.



would you be so kind as to direct me to that thread? I tried searching, but all I can find are threads refering to grapple trucks....

Also, no user silvermaple.


Thanks!


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## FanOFatherNash (Apr 20, 2011)

Ghillie said:


> I attached the pull end of the snare to an anchor I rigged to the ceiling.
> [/IMG]


 
Nice work for a guy that lives in a dungeon. No really nice work


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## zogger (Apr 21, 2011)

*Those are very nice*

Of course I have no idea whatsoever *what* they are or what they are for, but still nice.

I just wish I had gotten into you guys work when I was younger, I think I would have been good at it. Had one offer back in the 80s (typical start out on the ground, work your way literally up..) but it was working in solid poison ivy encrusted trees so I passed on it. The pay was roughly what I was making at another job, just looked to be challenging and more fun. But still..solid poison ivy laced everything, several jobs in a row..what I was told anyway. 

Proly why they were looking for help...I knew it was a mistake so I didn't take the offer.

Funny, now, I hardly ever get it and when I do it is no big deal but back then and all the way back to when I was a little kid I would get it so bad I stayed as far away as I could. got hauled to the hospital once for it, and another time was part of a pharmco experiment for a pill/vaccine (that worked, never saw it on the market though, but only summer I never got poison ivy either)

I am around it all the time now..but don't get it. I have no idea why not either. About the only difference now is I have become a fanatic about using gloves, I always carry two pair on me, one cotton, one leather. Always as in all the time, and I put them on before doing any work whatsoever.


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## zopi (Apr 21, 2011)

Something I learned awhile back, which is of limited use to climbers, but is still interesting, is how to splice double braid line to wire rope..7x19 or so...

Skin the sheath back a foot or two and knot to secure it, then unravel a foot or so of the core, unweave the core and divide into groups of three...taper the wire rope back eight or ten diameters, and cover the end and taper with rubber tape to keep the spurs in...feed this into the center of the core and snug the end of the tape just above where you stopped unravelling the core...take the three strands you developed from the core and splice to the body of the wire rope, as if it were three strand rope...now loosen the cover and basically repaet the same steps as above, starting with the end of the core splice..then whip the whole splice over with marline to protect it. 

like I say, not alot of use to a climber maybe, but every time I do one for a sailboat owner I get a hundred bucks or so..and I never have to buy another halyard..:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Ghillie (Apr 27, 2011)

iliketrees said:


> would you be so kind as to direct me to that thread? I tried searching, but all I can find are threads refering to grapple trucks....
> 
> Also, no user silvermaple.
> 
> ...



Sorry it took so long.

YouTube - Pocket Grappling Hook by Maratac


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