# Had to quit first logging job after fitting in perfectly. How should I proceed?



## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

Yesterday afternoon they asked me to get a can of starting fluid out of the skidder and when I did about 10 beer cans were empty inside and I kind of just went on my way. I am new. I am good at knocking trees down but I don't know anything about logging. I haven't even bucked trees for this company. 

The boss is a great guy, but I knew the skidder driver was an alcoholic. This morning when we were fueling up off road diesel into 5 gallon buckets for the skidder I could smell alcohol on his breathe. I just knew to stay away from him. I have stayed away from the skidder as much as possibly anyways because I have heard stories of skidders hitting people with tree tops because they simply couldn't see them, even a skilled and sober operator. 

I had cut down and topped about 6 trees this morning and I pinched my saw. I knew the skidder would be by in a few minutes and planned to flag him down to release my saw. I heard the skidder coming and it stopped. After listening to it idle for about 10 minutes I assumed there was a problem with the skidder so I walked over there. He looked to be passed out cold with the skidder running. I yelled a few times and he didn't move. I had know idea it was alcohol related and I jumped up to check to see if he was alive. He jumped up and acted scared to death and revved up the skidder somehow. 

The skidder didn't move but he could have ran me over. He is constantly moving logs and tops near me and there were several times he never sees me when he should. I went and borrowed the owners saw, cut my bar out, and loaded up my equipment. 

They know he drinks all the time. I have four kids. I can't die over 5.00 a tree......

I had planned on starting my own operation. I don't know enough. I am addicted to the woods but I don't know how to proceed thanks to my lack of experience.....

This sucks.


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## blades (Jul 10, 2014)

Maybe a letter to the owner stating why you left. Just about what you posted above would be a fair start, if you didn't tell him up front when you left. 
As to the owner/employer well sooner or later it's going to bite him where it really hurts.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

He was on the same job site. He knows the guy is a drunk. He rides to work with them everyday.


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## Gologit (Jul 10, 2014)

You found that job. Find another one.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

Trying to figure out if I cut a log a day myself and took it to the market if I would make more and not have to worry about someone else killing me or if I could do it without getting ripped off. I am at least a year away from knowing what to do as far as bucking, grading, dealing with sawmills, etc., but this scared the hell out of me. Makes me want to head to the woods and find five white oak trees and make money without anyone else endangering me. 

Makes me want to head tot he credit union and buy equipment but I am afraid I just need to know more than all you very helpful people can teach me via the internet.


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## madhatte (Jul 10, 2014)

You're doing well to walk away. You aren't walking away empty-handed, either -- you learned a valuable lesson.


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## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2014)

Resign the proper way. 2 weeks notice, ask for an exit interview, DO NOT burn any bridges. Say nothing afterward, no gossip. Ask for a reference.

Oh, go back to school, get an even better job. Cut wood for fun on the weekends.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

I won't give someone two weeks to kill me drunk on the skidder, which is acceptable by the owner because he is a family member. I am a student at the UK college of engineering right now. I have kids to feed in the meantime and timber is the highest paying job in this area.

I also like cutting timber.


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## rwoods (Jul 10, 2014)

See post #4. Ron


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## slowp (Jul 10, 2014)

opcorn:


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## Red Elm (Jul 10, 2014)

Matthew, is this the first time you've experienced an alcoholic in the workplace? They're everywhere. Doesnt make it right, but they're there. You should have talked it over with the owner, family or not. You just pack out and quit everytime something going on you dont like, you'll get the reputation as a whiner. Believe me, contractors and owners talk to each other. Surprises me that someone smart enough to go to engineering school couldnt figure out something better than to pack out and quit. Fallers have many ways to get a skidder operators attention.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 10, 2014)

I have been self employed my whole life and have had no tolerance for people drinking when working for me. The owner wasn't mad at me. He said he shows up for work and is family so we have to give him a drink from time to time and not much I can do about it. I asked if there was a way to handle this without me getting squashed by a skidder or move me to the other side of the powerline and he said that he might be able to on days that it is too wet for the skidder but not normally. 

I then told him I have four children and my youngest child has down syndrome and my life is too valuable to my family. He said he understood and asked me if I wanted to work when it rains and I said to give me a call but I won't be around that guy. We shook hands and I headed home. 

I am not a whiner. This guy was asleep. Passed out. It wasn't a voluntary nap. He was so drunk he went out. If he had been lifting a log to get a saw out for me then he could have ran me over. That doesn't make me a whiner in my opinion. 

I guess I should have explained I didn't run off the jobsite. The owner understood why I was leaving. He is usually bore cutting more trees than anyone unless he is meeting with a amish buyer or something. He said he has had some close calls but that everyone is more cautious around him because he can fire them. 

I like being in the woods. I really liked the guy I worked for but on a weekly basis I was cutting down 75% of the trees and that puts me in line with that particular skidder driver way too often. When I feel like working in the woods alone would be safer than being around other workers then I thought it was time for me to leave. I can see everyone thinks I am being a baby so I will take the advice given but I do not feel I made a mistake leaving. I just wondered what my next step should be. I will eventually do this on my own but I don't know enough at this point. 

I also don't think I am better than anyone else. If your an alcoholic please don't take this to heart. I smoke 2 packs a day and have no room to talk about vices. I just don't trust this guy. 

Ready for the next step.


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## DanTheCanadian (Jul 10, 2014)

Next step is to find another guy to cut wood for. You say you don't know enough but obviously you have the capacity to learn so go to it. Good look


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## Red Elm (Jul 11, 2014)

Nope, not an alcoholic, rarely drink, dont smoke, do drugs or chew, I do however cuss, much to the dissapointment of my saintly wife.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 11, 2014)

you did right........i wouldn't work with a drunk 5 minutes. well........most would get away from me.......they couldn't stand what i have to say about stupidity.

yes you will make money at one load a day but you will spend it fast to. remember, 1 guy one load, 2 guys two loads......see what im saying here. if you hire stuff out, they better hustle or they will make more than you do.

if your still afraid you won't make it on yer own, then yea, look for another falling gig. and i'll tell ya this, the falling is the most relaxing part of logging, the rest is aggravating.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Thank you so much for such sound advice that I needed. The only thing that scares me is a grapevine or something stupid knocking me into the after life.....


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## northmanlogging (Jul 11, 2014)

Go find another outfit to log for, better to work for a few anyway, more tricks...

As for doing it yourself, taint much to it, learn as you go.

Barring finding another crew to work for, scrape some cash together (I mortgaged the house...) go find an abused old skidder, and some friends with timber, cut a few loads hire a self loader, wait for the check...

Most of logging is basic physics, push here this happens, a guy really just has to have an eye for it, and remember not to push to hard...

The rest is spacial awareness... (which most folks lack) I.E. knowing where everything is and how everything is going to react before anything moves, and also seeing what is should look like when your done.

As for me, I don't work with drunks or addicts, I will walk when I come in the next day said person is sober or absent, or I'm absent, even in machining I've seen way to many people get hurt from substance abuse to deal with it anymore. Logging is dangerous enough adding drunk/high to the mix just makes it stupid to stick around.

(granted tipping a few back while cutting firewood is a different story, everything in moderation, including moderation)


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 11, 2014)

I love beer, chainsaws, heavy-equipment, motorcycles, flying, boating, hunting and fishing. The only one that mixes well (to a point) with beer (or any other form of intoxication/incapacitation) is fishing. Beyond that all bets are off, as I long ago realized that I'm neither invincible nor replaceable (to my family anyway). Find another gig somewhere else or try it on your own. Otherwise, do like I do and enjoy your time cutting firewood while dreaming of the big ones.


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## bitzer (Jul 11, 2014)

Five bucks a tree sucks anyway. Say your cuttin 1000 board footers all day. Your not makin any money then. **** it I've got five kids and went all in logging 3 years ago for myself with no prevous production experience at all. I didn't even know any loggers locally. It can be done, just hope you can turn a wrench. Bucking and grading can be done on the landing with help of a forester. Call some local mills and cut for them rather than trying to buy your own.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Your right about the 5.00 a tree being no good. I was on VERY steep terrain and felt like I was going to stroke out in order to make enough to make the job worth it. I was just doing it for experience. I learned a lot in a few days. I have cut several hundred trees with just a notch and a backcut and they showed me how to bore cut. I only pinch my saw once on a back cut of the bore and two times on a top in almost 200 trees. I am shocked I never had a major barber chair just back cutting all these years. 

One day I cut 32 white oaks 18-28 inches on the stump and I would guess each tree were mostly stave logs. I sure would hate to do the math on what that was at the sawmill. I would probably go get a mortgage on my house myself. 

Additionally, You all have helped me a lot since I started. I was back in the woods cutting after having 18 teeth pulled out in 10 days. I am tough enough to be dumb at times but you guys have all given me very good guidance for the most part. 

I would go get new tires for my gooseneck and buy a skidder or just do low impact with my tractor and a arch if I learn how to sell. The only bad thing about that is I might get banned from the board for all the questions I would have.


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## SliverPicker (Jul 11, 2014)

Keep asking questions. No one is born knowing this stuff. Don't apologize. Your latest set back was nothing but a bump in the road. Shine it on. Take what you learned and don't look back.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Thanks SilverPicker. I was sitting here looking up hiring a forester in order to get proper prices out of logs until I learn proper grading. The % I would pay would probably cost me less than what a mill will underpay me. I don't know. Just throwing out ideas.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 11, 2014)

Matthew im not much for that GOL cutting but i won't discourage you for it. i back up white oak often with out busting them.

ill go over some pics with you some night and explain what the grades are, although it will likely be different in your area.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Thanks so much for the information. I don't know what GOL cutting is. I just know when I bore cut I don't pinch my saw but trying to plunge that tip in scares the hell out of me.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 11, 2014)

what they tought ya is GOL.........game of logging.........only time i bore is on a heavy leaner to gut the heart or for a block face, wich works good on some things and can eliminate the need for gutting on some timber. 
i can talk to ya about directional face n hinge falling but alot of these guys are better at it than me. i have just modifyed it a little to suit the hardwood. Bitzer has as well and can help ya on that if he has time to be on here. terminolgy will confuse ya at first till ya catch on to what the western guys are saying.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 11, 2014)

and like picker said, keep asking. there is some older members that can teach ya alot and they don't mind. just respect that there is some differences in the way they do things on the west coast but it may help you alot to look at their way.


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## Toddppm (Jul 11, 2014)

Couple enabling jackasses on here it seems **** that guy and the people who let him work like that. Sounds like you handled it exactly right. I wouldn't worry about anybody talking about how you left, if they have any brains they could probably figure out why, if not, **** them too.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 11, 2014)

gol=game of logging(not to be confused with game of thrones)=bore felling=bore and strap/trigger=ssd=swedish stump dance=tooshortabartodoanydamage... among other derisive terms on the west coast. It works, its mostly safe, its kinda slow, it takes the steering out of falling timber.

Most if not all west coast cutters learn to use a wedge, stuff it in there as soon as there is room, that way if the tree sits back you don't pinch a bar, and then all ya have to do is beat the snot out of a poor inanimate piece of plastic until there is a nice woosh and a boom (hopefully without any cracking and breaking). That being said our timber doesn't generally have much lean to it, what it does have is deceiving... and it grows ****ing tall, with all the branches up high like one of them big tri masted frigates from just before steam(oh yeah, those masts came from here...) so even a little breeze can mess ya up a bit.

There are hundreds of ways to fall timber, many of them very dangerous, some less so, all eventually get trees in the flat position.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 11, 2014)

Thanks guys. You are a wealth of information. Thanks for help with the logging language as well. I thought a wedge was the best tool for cutting trees but they only bore cut so thats what I did. 
As far as the wind I guess they had a scare in the past. They didn't work at all on windy days. A lot of weight moving around up there.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 11, 2014)

there are different levels of wind... if the tops are moving I try not to do any falling, if they are bending and swaying I stay out of the woods especially around any logging too many broken branches hung up there that like to fall down and kill people, not to mention all the trees that are now exposed to direct wind.


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## KiwiBro (Jul 12, 2014)

Just wanna say you guys are great. In other walks of life there are people who charge by the minute for nowhere near as good advice.


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## ReggieT (Jul 12, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I have been self employed my whole life and have had no tolerance for people drinking when working for me. The owner wasn't mad at me. He said he shows up for work and is family so we have to give him a drink from time to time and not much I can do about it. I asked if there was a way to handle this without me getting squashed by a skidder or move me to the other side of the powerline and he said that he might be able to on days that it is too wet for the skidder but not normally.
> 
> I then told him I have four children and my youngest child has down syndrome and my life is too valuable to my family. He said he understood and asked me if I wanted to work when it rains and I said to give me a call but I won't be around that guy. We shook hands and I headed home.
> 
> ...


Wise decision...you don't owe any explanations to anyone other than yourself, wife & family...UNLESS you post it here...which of course opens you up to the scrutiny and dubious counsel of everybody here & their kid brother! lol
Do what you gotta do for you...SAFETY & HEALTH 1ST! 
Blessings your way!


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 12, 2014)

While I have little offer compared to these guys, as a side note, it was interesting doing a bit of cutting in Northern Cali (being from KS). The "Big" trees around here are 40-50' tall. dropping some Oaks on my Great Aunt and Uncles land South of Shasta was quite intriguing adding another 20+/- feet to them. Looking up s mandatory. Derail over.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

I don't know how tall the trees are I have been cutting but they are pretty darn tall. I thought they were 40-50 ft but my eyes could have been playing tricks on me. I know it was hard to look up and see which way the top limbs were going so I could control the falling direction. I had a few fool me. I thought I was going to land every tree on a dime. Then I got fooled by the weight of those upper limbs..... But I don't know anything yet


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 12, 2014)

Red Elm said:


> Matthew, is this the first time you've experienced an alcoholic in the workplace? They're everywhere. Doesnt make it right, but they're there. You should have talked it over with the owner, family or not. You just pack out and quit everytime something going on you dont like, you'll get the reputation as a whiner. Believe me, contractors and owners talk to each other. Surprises me that someone smart enough to go to engineering school couldnt figure out something better than to pack out and quit. Fallers have many ways to get a skidder operators attention.


Thats unprofessional, and no way exeptable, A near miss is like attempted Assault with a deadly weapon or in the worst case scenario
Assault with a deadly weapon causing death, the same as drinking and driving, its not even exeptable in a pleasure boat here, as you could get a dwi and lose you road DL, So how the hell is this exeptable in the work force, if thats crown land( gov land )he could be charged for dwi. I'm sure of this.
Moreover, what kind of fool boss would risk his lively hood over some drunk, its just going to take that guy hurting someone bad or killing someone and someone breathing a word that he was fully aware of the mans drinking.
(To the OP) As far as a reference, who wants to be associated with that shlt. Tell the potential employer you have no tolerance for drinking in the work force, and refuse to work one minute in
that environment, and that was the reason for your departure.
He may respect and/or trust you if you don't drop names but tell him you would be happy to give him a day free trial or say "if your not happy after a couple of days then send me away free of charge.
Getting pinched? Pack an extra bar with your bag
those K&H 10" & 12" are really sweet for driving sideways
and will almost always get you out with minimal room.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Never thought of bringing an extra bar. I have a stihl 16" bar and chain just laying around that is never used. They told me to flag the skidder if I got pinched. I assumed this is what people did in the woods...I'm green. I still don't like plunging part of the bore cut. Right after I sharpened my drags the other day I thought I was going to get a life altering kickback before I got it into a tree. A week of bore cutting taught me how to do it, but still scares me a little. I guess if I had no fear then I would get cocky and get hurt anyways. 

As far as the skidder driver. I seriously doubt he has a drivers license. Oh well I think I will just go do this myself and see how many mistakes I make. I think making sure my stave logs are paid a stave log price will be my biggest hurdle. The mills will know I am green too.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

Westboastfaller said:


> Thats unprofessional, and no way exeptable, A near miss is like attempted Assault with a deadly weapon or in the worst case scenario
> Assault with a deadly weapon causing death, the same as drinking and driving, its not even exeptable in a pleasure boat here, as you could get a dwi and lose you road DL, So how the hell is this exeptable in the work force, if thats crown land( gov land )he could be charged for dwi. I'm sure of this.
> Moreover, what kind of fool boss would risk his lively hood over some drunk, its just going to take that guy hurting someone bad or killing someone and someone breathing a word that he was fully aware of the mans drinking.
> (To the OP) As far as a reference, who wants to be associated with that shlt. Tell the potential employer you have no tolerance for drinking in the work force, and refuse to work one minute in
> ...


Westboastfaller, no one ever said anything about a near miss, that's putting words in someone elses mouth. In the midwest US the fallers are usually cutting one on one, up to three fallers to one skidder depending on the circumstances. A common way to deal w a knot head skidder man is for the fallers to gradually ease up. then a chainfiling, a filter change or nature break by one or more can get him caught up to the point he takes a break or finds some way to loaf. The fallers tie in and cut solid and swamp him. In alot of outfits the skidder operators dont go home until the days cut is on the landing.

I never said he was wrong for quitting, thats his call. I never said anyone else was wrong for telling him he did the right thing. In all likelyhood he made a good decision,

BUT, when Matthew went to work that morning he had a wife, 4 kids, one w special needs, and probably like most younger family guys, bills, bills, and more bills. it just irks the crap out of me that at the end of the day, he still had the same responsibilities, but no job, the drunk still did. I have yet to see a logging or forestry crew yet that cant make life so intolerable for a person that they wont quit. And nothing illegal, immoral, or dangerous need take place. A missing lunch bucket one day, a snake in it the next, their personal pick-up up on blocks at quitting time, etc. We're not exactly talking about a bunch a girl scouts here, they're loggers.

And just for the record, at present I run a saw and oversee the daytime field operations for a forestry company that is owned by a man w a daytime federal govt job. He is VERY clear about the fact that im in charge while he is absent. NOT ONE of the crew has to worry about working with a drunk, a stoner, or a COCKY dangerous co-worker because I wont tolerate any of it for 2 minutes!!!


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

+1 on the k&h 10" wedges i use the triple taper..........couple in my back pocket any time i pick up a saw................but my wedge will be in the back cut.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)




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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

ok Matthew, here is a quickie.........that tree would grade like this; first 12' export #1 or super at 1.80 a foot, second log prolly went around 1.00. from there it would make stave at .55 until it got down to 14" little end. shave your knotts close and they shouldn't hurt stave logs at this time.
as you see i haul tree length now. that load would be almost all grade of some sort with very little saw log to it as long as tops are kept to 14".
most important, don't stress or pull fiber on the white oak, that will knock you back to stave instead of export prices. better to have a big face than pull on this timber. now if it has shake or big sap wood, theres nothing you can do about quality.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks treeslayer. Those are some nice looking logs. I learn a little more everyday.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 12, 2014)

Matthew, just FYI I'm more or less the village idiot of the logging forums, so take this fwiw. You need to focus first on the stuff that can kill you rather than the business aspect. I may be totally wrong, but I don't get the sense you'd be able to use a Dutchman to turn a tree out of harms way, throw in a block face if needed, confidently stack wedges on a heavier leaner, know what to do with a school marm, know how to handle a heavy head leaner, know when to chase the back cut to reduce pulling and when to run like hell. I advise joining another crew as something of an apprenticeship. In the meanwhile, pick up Douglas dents book "professional timber falling", as it covers a lot. Northman figured it out entirely on his own, but he is larger than most of the trees he cuts, and is therefore in no real danger. I'm pulling for ya


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

Very likely the best advice you've been given since you joined the forum.


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## bitzer (Jul 12, 2014)

Matt call some local mills and find out how much timber they are buying and how much they are paying for cutting and skidding. 100-120 bucks per mbf is pretty average. They buy the timber, you cut it and get a paycheck without having to look for, buy, and market your product. They will have a forester who sets up the sale, landing, trucking,etc. He will help you buck for the grade they want. Its a good way to get started. You need a skidder and a saw of course, but there is alot you don't have to personally invest in when you sub for a mill. They hold most of the liabilty, public relations, that sort of stuff. You don't get paid till logs hit the mill and there is alot to be done when you are cruising, buying, logging, selling, etc. Contracts, cutting notices, surveying, dnr restrictions, trucking, marketing, etc, etc. All kinds of fun stuff. Yeah you don't make as much as buying your own timber, but its a good place to get started and learn the buisness.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

Bitz you get that? but they pay for hauling right?


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## bitzer (Jul 12, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Bitz you get that? but they pay for hauling right?


Yeah I put the wood on the landing, they take it from there. Thats standard up here for subbing.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

thats not bad then, i hate to have to handle trucking for that...........one mill was paying 150 here for a 30 mile haul...........i declined. tucking is expensive, if i could find a contract hauler that could work with me i'd stop messin with a truck.

hey how did ya make out with the engine?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

The last several posts have been very helpful. I have a lot to learn about cutting. I don't know how much work the sawmills around here sub out but people are logging property they swore they would never log. I will see if they will buy at the landing. Its amazing they even help with the bucking to get things right. I was told buying a truck was important because you lose so much money by not delivering. Thats very interesting to find out there may be a way around that.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

boys, i bet no one in Matt's area knows any thing about directional falling.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

depends Matt, very few haulers in this area..........i almost couldn't function without a truck, log trailer and low boy.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

treeslayer2003post: 4877035 said:


> boys, i bet no one in Matt's area knows any thing about directional falling.


You are probably right. Almost none of the younger guys in this area do, they all bore cut or flush cut. The owner has hired a few younger guys to try, but none of them even care to learn directional falling. They look at you and say "well just have the skidder push it over if you want it dropped a certain way." Those guys arent kept around our outfit. Most outfits here bore them flush except the buttress roots (which they call spurs), then cut the roots and let'er go. Some crews cable them over if they have a cable skidder. Not this ole boy, I face every tree. That flush cutting is dangerous as it gets, no control over fall whatsoever.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

crown cutting.............no way. my buyer likes what im doing and he says the big notch dosen't hurt a thing.............pull and cracks do. my bottom line went up directional falling so its worth the extra minute to me.

on the crown cut, even good hardwood generaly has a defect that close to the ground so what purpose does it serve..........


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

oh, i came up stump jumping..........it seems to be the norm in the south. i'm surprised they were using gol.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

we need stump pics for Matt............where is all the western fallers? Bitzer had alot of pics, im not sure they are still here now.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

I guess I need to make sure I explain how they bore cut here. I am not saying this is the right way of doing it but this is how they do it. They cut the notch in the direction they "think" the tree will fall and then plunge in 3 inches behind the notch and bore into the middle of the notch and then span the saw back toward the backside of the tree until they are a few inches away from the back. Then they plunge in the same way on the other side. Some start in the back, some in the front on the second side cut. They called it half moon cutting. Just a redneck term I am sure. Then when all but the two small side hinges are cut they go cut down the back to release the tree. The only adjustments I saw them make was they would leave additional wood on one side of one leaning to one direction. 

I asked them one day about a wedge. They said they didn't use them so i made a mallet and and wedge out of a limb in order to have a wedge in my back pocket. That seems to be the way everyone does it around here though.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

i'm not sure what to call that.........................
that may be ok on a heavy head leaner but there are better ways of falling most trees.


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## madhatte (Jul 12, 2014)

The SE obsession with grade makes me nervous. I'll take the safety of a good hinge every time. Why put the waste on the log, anyway? Humboldts offer good directional control with very little waste.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Well i thought it was a crazy cut but its what guys taught me that I assumed knew what they were doing because they still had all their limbs. I just saw myself using the tip of my bar hundreds of times a day counting the tops and limbs and I thought there has to be a better way. Maybe there isn't.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 12, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Northman figured it out entirely on his own, but he is larger than most of the trees he cuts, and is therefore in no real danger. I'm pulling for ya



And I cut some pretty big wood too, wait you saying I'm fat?!

(actually I'm not entirely self taught, I sorta grew up doing this stuff, it s the business end I'm pretty much self taught on, and the whole how do I lay out a landing and tackle a clear cut etc etc etc thats all been by the seat of my pants)


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## slowp (Jul 12, 2014)

The GOL session that I went to would add placing a wedge in that cut. There is room to put it in from the side, if the tree is big enough. In fact two wedges can be placed and then the back strip cut off.
That helps keep the tree from sattin' back.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

madhatte said:


> The SE obsession with grade makes me nervous. I'll take the safety of a good hinge every time. Why put the waste on the log, anyway? Humboldts offer good directional control with very little waste.


the hinge don't hurt grade is what iv learned.......if it was done right and breaks off clean.

and i want my wedges in the back.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 12, 2014)

learn all you can about directionaly falling. Doesn"t matter if you use conventional or humboldt, just learn to aim the damn thing and hit what your aiming for, a tiny bit of fiber pull is nothing compared to breaking the last two logs or getting hung up in a leave tree or crossing the lay and screwing everything else up all day.

For the record I'm all about the humboldt... tall stumps are the norm around here anyway, and its not like you get paid for the root flare.

The GOL/SSD is all fine and good for folks that want to take their time and be as safe as possible, it does work... but if you know what your doing and have a saw that won't scoff at powering through the back cut, a normal face and back cut is by far faster than dicking about with boring waking around the tree, and nipping a strap...

this is a little different but illustrates my point.



enjoy


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

i guess i don't get how gol is safe.......you can't change any thing once youve bored it.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

[QUOTE="matthew sparks, post: 4877080, member: 1230 I guess I need to make sure I explain how they bore cut here. I am not saying this is the right way of doing it but this is how they do it. They cut the notch in the direction they "think" the tree will fall and then plunge in 3 inches behind the notch and bore into the middle of the notch and then span the saw back toward the backside of the tree until they are a few inches away from the back. Then they plunge in the same way on the other side. Some start in the back, some in the front on the second side cut. They called it half moon cutting. Just a redneck term I am sure. Then when all but the two small side hinges are cut they go cut down the back to release the tree. The only adjustments I saw them make was they would leave additional wood on one side of one leaning to one direction.

I asked them one day about a wedge. They said they didn't use them so i made a mallet and and wedge out of a limb in order to have a wedge in my back pocket. That seems to be the way everyone does it around here though.[/QUOTE]


Seems like a time consuming, bizzare cut for sure, especially if there isnt much head lean or weight to the lead, but hey, I figured out a long time ago that regional differences are USUALLY done for a reason.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> and i want my wedges in the back.



ME TOO!!!


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## northmanlogging (Jul 12, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i guess i don't get how gol is safe.......you can't change any thing once youve bored it.



I may be wrong... (probably wrong) its supposed to give you time to set the hinge wood and alleviate the danger from a barber chair, it also allows you to pop that trigger strap and be ready to run, rather then sitting there making sure its going where you want it to. Not to mention allowing a guy to start stuffing wedges in there without the tree having any chance of sitting back... although if your worried about sit back the you should learn to start a wedge as soon as there is room anyway.

even in chair prone wood it only helps, I've had a few chair even when using it... not that I use it often... Coos is way quicker and probably just as "safe"


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## bnmc98 (Jul 12, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I guess I need to make sure I explain how they bore cut here. I am not saying this is the right way of doing it but this is how they do it. They cut the notch in the direction they "think" the tree will fall and then plunge in 3 inches behind the notch and bore into the middle of the notch and then span the saw back toward the backside of the tree until they are a few inches away from the back. Then they plunge in the same way on the other side. Some start in the back, some in the front on the second side cut. They called it half moon cutting. Just a redneck term I am sure. Then when all but the two small side hinges are cut they go cut down the back to release the tree. The only adjustments I saw them make was they would leave additional wood on one side of one leaning to one direction.
> 
> I asked them one day about a wedge. They said they didn't use them so i made a mallet and and wedge out of a limb in order to have a wedge in my back pocket. That seems to be the way everyone does it around here though.



Sounds like a painfully long drawn out process to me, not much room for control for terrain and easy skidding.
I get very little fiber pull on my humboldts and its much more efficient for me to make 3 cuts same side of tree.
You just gotta learn technique and what the tree will do and that comes from time in the trenches.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

heavy leaner......chair prone, i gut it or block it. works for me..............if i bust one its because i didn't line up right. but that ain't happened in a long time.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

any body got a perfect hombolt stump pic? ya know one that the hinge broke clean.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

I guess the GOL Is similar to what we use on a hard leaner. Face, bore behind hinge, backcut out toward the back of tree opposite of face. But I dont see the need on most trees.


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## Red Elm (Jul 12, 2014)

bnmc98 said:


> You just gotta learn technique and what the tree will do and that comes from time in the trenches.



Amen to that brother!


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

hey i got one for y'all.........when blocking out a large stick, any tricks to lining up the block? like on a 40" plus and a 32 don't reach the other side.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 12, 2014)

Make yer gun cut, all the way across... then sight along the top of the bar...

I'll dig around and see what I got for humboldts... or timber is a little more fibrous then you east coast guys so having very little pull is kind of relative...


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks so much guys. You guys are so much help. I remembered when questioning on this cutting style they said that it kept the wood from cracking and you don't have to use over a 20" bar and the two plunges were quicker than trying to cut the whole tree with a large bar. 

Not saying any of that is correct. Its just what they told me.


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## SliverPicker (Jul 12, 2014)

Once you have about 10,000 sticks in the dirt it will all _begin_ to make sense. Wear out a few saws and never discount your instincts.


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## bitzer (Jul 12, 2014)

Not sure if this will work or not cuz im on a tablet right now. Bar length red oak - 32 inch bar. Cuts bypass a little but i was going for speed on this to make a point. My saw i'm runnin now makes that one look like slow motion. http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=1696gh6s2&client=mv-google#/watch?v=Wc9eb3U5_w4


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## bitzer (Jul 12, 2014)

Mike- gun from both sides at a point in the distance. Make sure gap of block at least 4-5 inches so you can get bar back in there vertically to cean it up if you have to. You don't want any bypassing cuts. Once the block is out its easy to clean up if you have too. Severing any fibers either top or bottom will screw it up. The grain can be an issue too.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

yea i wind up cleaning it up most times on big sticks. i like to block on leaners..........cut several over size soft maple last week, yes they were solid. one was leaning hard.........blocked it and watched it turn 45 degrees without wedgeing and that hinge broke clean just as it hit the ground save for a strip that stayed on the butt.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

I just want to notch a tree and cut it. The bore cut sucks when your tired late in the day. I need to do a humbolt cut on some large trees and see how I do.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 12, 2014)

most trees thats the way to go......stick a wedge in soon as ya got room just for insurance.


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## madhatte (Jul 12, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> any body got a perfect hombolt stump pic? ya know one that the hinge broke clean.



Here's one. It's a red oak I cut inside the fence during storm cleanup a couple of years ago. I trimmed the root flare because I was having trouble keeping up the RPM's in that hard wood and didn't want to pack a bigger saw. 







And another, a sweetgum, following the same storm: 






Here's the butt end of an oak showing the hinge breaking cleanly:






Same oak (I think), stump pic: 






Here's a biggish walnut yard tree swung hard against its lean with a tapered hinge: 






Of course, I mostly cut fur, and they end up looking like this: 






or this, with a tapered hinge to swing it ~45 degrees: 






Here's a block face plus snipe: 






Every one of these is a Humboldt variation. I'm just a forester, not a cutter, so you can reasonably expect that a pro faller is better at this than I am. Humboldts offer a LOT of different ways to do things.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Sorry to start so many side discussions but when cutting hardwoods how big of a bar can a MS460 thats been gone through and at max power handle?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

Those pics look awesome. Looks like you could get trees on the ground a lot faster than I have been with a bore cut. I was making too many cuts and after 4-6 hours my notches weren't even straight.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 12, 2014)

I'm


Red Elm said:


> Westboastfaller, no one ever said anything about a near miss, that's putting words in someone elses mouth. In the midwest US the fallers are usually cutting one on one, up to three fallers to one skidder depending on the circumstances. A common way to deal w a knot head skidder man is for the fallers to gradually ease up. then a chainfiling, a filter change or nature break by one or more can get him caught up to the point he takes a break or finds some way to loaf. The fallers tie in and cut solid and swamp him. In alot of outfits the skidder operators dont go home until the days cut is on the landing.
> 
> I never said he was wrong for quitting, thats his call. I never said anyone else was wrong for telling him he did the right thing. In all likelyhood he made a good decision,
> 
> ...


I'm glad you run a clean professional ship,*RESPECT*Having said that I would have expected a different response from you.
its not that he quit because his wrist was sore or he's c**t struck (maybe those to are related) anyway you are indeed been the one that's suggestive, that's your quote below.
Of course it exists in industry, I myself in 28 years of work, 25 been saw related, have only one experience with this, the only two other people were drinking and one been the contractor.
Well I looked back and he's in me falling zone with a tree hung up that he proceeded to fence post down. It was facing away and I took my eye of him for a bit and looked back and the tree was just about to strike me I attempted to run and got hit with the top between the shoulder blades. Then a fist fight, then
3 years later I get skidded of a job because the client recognized me from that crew and he remembered it as we were all drinking. One experience and I lost two jobs, got in a fight and was about 2 ft from getting killed.
[/quote]
"There are many ways to get a skidder operators attention"

Well that statement would be true but were talking about nothing different that a perpetual drunk driver and at one point was passed out at the wheel, IDN, I know a lot of fallers would shake their axe at him and say " You c_ _ck sucker better not come within 500 ft of me" If he didn't listen to that he better hope he's got good FOPS in place..
Know a faller that got back at a cat operator that would had killed him had he not just moved to the other side and he told the guy he was working there. He waited for him as he had about a two ft tree set up to go off a bank and laid it over his roof. Scared the piss out of him and he never came where he worked again.


[/quote]
"You just pack out and quit everytime something going on you dont like, you'll get the reputation as a whiner. Believe me, contractors and owners talk to each other. Surprises me that someone smart enough to go to engineering school couldnt figure out something better than to pack out and quit. Fallers have many ways to get a skidder operators attention."

I wasn't trying to make out you said something you didn't, I was just saying HE'S DRUNK!!! He will have more near misses, hurt someone or kill someone. Its senseless, no excuse for it and no excuse to remain working in that environment. The worker that puts up with it, or the D' bag that employs 'THAT' is no better.
A D' bag like that May as well sell people for money.


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## madhatte (Jul 12, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> Sorry to start so many side discussions but when cutting hardwoods how big of a bar can a MS460 thats been gone through and at max power handle?



Most of those were cut with a bone-stock 440 and a 28" bar running full-comp semi-chisel chain. That's my setup at work.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

I know so many of you will tell me to never work alone but after reading that Westboatfaller I just want to go buy a skidder and work alone. HAHA


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## matthew sparks (Jul 12, 2014)

I bought a fully rebuilt 460MS that seems to have more power than a new 461. I was told my MS391 was not big enough to worry with so i traded my new 391 and 200.00 for the 460ms.


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## madhatte (Jul 12, 2014)

460 is a good saw. I ran one for a couple of years, never had a problem. I run a 440 now because it's lighter, and have a 660 in reserve for when I need the extra oomph.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

I don't know if I could handle a 660. Like I said my notches weren't straight when I got tired even with the 460. I am sure that stamina comes with cutting down thousands of trees like most of you guys have.


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## bnmc98 (Jul 13, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I don't know if I could handle a 660. Like I said my notches weren't straight when I got tired even with the 460. I am sure that stamina comes with cutting down thousands of trees like most of you guys have.



You will learn to line up your cuts with time, as for the saw, use what the wood calls for. dont lug a 660 around if you are cutting smaller trees, that will help your stamina and your wallet. as for bar length on a 460. I run a 32" on my 461 but I have to run a skip chain to keep rpm up, I log at 6000 plus feet and that robs hp. Pulls it fine in softwood, not a hardwood cutter so I dont know for sure on that one. I have always ran a 460 with a 28" bar and FC chain, but again we cut softwood.


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## madhatte (Jul 13, 2014)

660 is a nice saw. Good power-to-weight. I would use it more if I was in more of a hurry. 440 is good enough for 75% of my cutting.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I know so many of you will tell me to never work alone but after reading that Westboatfaller I just want to go buy a skidder and work alone. HAHA


Well there's working alone and there's working alone, that was some years back but that particular industry is removing danger trees after a narrow mechanically cleared swath.
Falling zones are still to be respected, 60 metres or two tree lengths, which ever is greater. The guy should have cut to the side by side (utv) and leapfroged ahead and I do the same.
Noboddy can enter you falling zone with out permission from the faller by radio or approach from the highside and yell from 60m away (200ft) like if Iwanted to cross your quarter to get to my wood I'd say , Mathew! Is it ok if I 'come' across your face... lol sorry man, but its pretty funny when you get to say it three times " you sure? Its ok to 'come' across your face.
and the guys saying yes of course you can come across my face...lol
See you couldn't have that kinda fun by yourself.
Most fallers are loners


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

HAHAHA! no you may not come across my face but I really appreciate the advice. I don't know if anyone has a radio in West KY. They all know how to scream really loud and all are hard of hearing though. I would just assume stick my wife in the truck and work alone and have her check up on me via radio. My first couple of days working I was worried about hurting myself or someone else. Then it got to where I worried more about someone else hurting me. I think the majority of loggers around here whether they are fallers or skidder drivers are all pretty reckless. I saw the owner domino four trees one day when we were all on lunch break. I asked him why he cut them that way and he said just for fun. He said he liked the adrenaline rush and he knew what he was doing.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I guess I need to make sure I explain how they bore cut here. I am not saying this is the right way of doing it but this is how they do it. They cut the notch in the direction they "think" the tree will fall and then plunge in 3 inches behind the notch and bore into the middle of the notch and then span the saw back toward the backside of the tree until they are a few inches away from the back. Then they plunge in the same way on the other side. Some start in the back, some in the front on the second side cut. They called it half moon cutting. Just a redneck term I am sure. Then when all but the two small side hinges are cut they go cut down the back to release the tree. The only adjustments I saw them make was they would leave additional wood on one side of one leaning to one direction.
> 
> I asked them one day about a wedge. They said they didn't use them so i made a mallet and and wedge out of a limb in order to have a wedge in my back pocket. That seems to be the way everyone does it around here though.


We call that a beaver tail and thats for big diameter/heavy leaner You wouldn't need to "heart it out"(cut the middle out and just leaving a post of holding wood on each side (still making it a legal stump here. on small diameter I just bore right through behind the holding wood then cut back and and leave what we call, a back strap. So you can get way back and
hit it with your tip. Always go a few inches below your main back cut or it may take your saw for a ride, and thats not always good. Thats a good way to do a push as well.
Instead of using a wedge.
Just do the same as well but leave a couple of inch back strap
and make another cut in the back again below the undercut
but about 8" this time and cut in a couple of inches (make sure its not to rotten at the strap) I pop an earmuff for saftey and walk to my "bullet" or pusher tree.
Back straps are used all the time for big cedar here.
On a big enough tree 7-8 ft you can bore the highside first and cut it back to your high 'corner' where your exit is( excape route) then
bore in and cut close to the lowest side corner and possibly heart it out to make sure because you cant go back there. Turn your saw around and walk the cut back to the high side meeting your cut.
Proper procedure would be to start your low side first especially on a leaner. also a diamond cut for small leaners.
Its move of a V cut . As much undercut as it will take but not over 25% (standard on heavy leaners /wedge trees 25%)
Then its basically a V cut cut low side then hight side without cuting a corner off then cut strait in on the back cut cutting out the V.
On the big leaners a big concern can be root mat pull, that back strap and/or beaver tail will save your life.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 13, 2014)

pushing for fun... STOOPid...

anyway to go back to your 460 question, ran an 046 for years with a 32" bar and full skip, never a problem, never cut any oak mind but she pulled fine in maple. Currently drag a 461 around, one muff modded the other bone stock, biggest issue with them is bar oil, I'll cut anything with them, and bar for bar they pull as good or better then a stock 660, just run out of clutch and oil anything over 32"


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

westboastfaller thanks so much even though I didn't fully understand all of that( I'm very green on various cutting methods) northmanlogging I haven't tried anything besides a 20" bar on the 460. The only thing I don't like about the saw is no autotune on the carb. When you guys talk about various chains all I have ever ran is Stihl .050 square top chains. Thats what I was told to use and not use safety chains. They seem to cut fast but the kickback after sharpening the drags when trying to plunge scare the hell out of me


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 13, 2014)

Considering I use my Stumpbroke 372 (7-pin) to pull a 28" bar of full-comp/round chisel in Hedge, that 460 having a few more CC's should do the same or a bit better while not straining quite as much. 32" with a full skip should be fine in about anything. I would experiment a bit with your raker height and find what your saw likes. If it's rough or grabby (even if it pulls it fine) then your drags are too low and you're asking for trouble. In softwood you can get away with a bit more, but ultimately smooth is fast (and controllable which is more important as you'd probably like to go home in the same condition that you left). On Hedge, Locust, Ash, Black/ Pin/ Burr Oaks and Mulberry I normally use the standard stihl file plate setting and a single file pass beyond and get a smooth, quick cut. A lot more has to do with your filing angles than your drag setting when to comes to production-vs-chain life though. What angles are you running for filing, or are you just eyeballing it?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

I am just eyeballing. Only way I have been taught to be honest.


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## Gologit (Jul 13, 2014)

Either of these two methods work well with leaners. I usually use the triangle but that's mostly because it's easier for me to match my cuts. Either way will work.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

Im surprised you can leave that much holding and the tree will still fall on the triangle. The T seems to be easier to me. I will see if I can draw how I have been cutting. It seemed to work but was slow. Thanks so much for the pictures.


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## slowp (Jul 13, 2014)

Do they not have workmens' comp in Kentucky? Out here, the insurance rate goes up from an already high premium, if you have accidents. That's a major incentive to be safe. When accidents happen, the safety inspectors visit more, and fines happen. Big fines. That's more incentive.

Chainsaws...fallers around here use 460s with 32 inch bars and may have a 660 in the pickup. It is all second or third growth timber getting cut. My neighbor says that a 440 is good until you get into a predicament and then you need the extra power that a bigger saw will give.

Long bars are used because of limbing techiniques and topography. Limbing is done by walking along on the tree and cutting. Long bars allow you to cut without having to move around to the other side and on steep ground, that will save time and energy. 

That's all I know, I'm not a faller.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

Well I was self contracted and had to provide my own equipment so I am not sure if he had to carry workmens comp on me. I never asked. I know I had to have it with my lawn care business when I had several employees.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

Nate, does all the oak over there have that much sap wood? looks funny to me as ours only will have a couple inches. oh and nice stumps.

Matt, to me 28" is good on a 461, i run a 32 on my 660 but its been modifyed...........our wood is kinda hard at the stump tho.
yes full skip square but round chisel is good too if filed right..........i don't take the rakers any lower than .020 or it will get grabby in oak....i do like more hook than factory tho.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

by the end of the week I will have so many different cutting methods and chain variations to choose from.. haha. thanks again for the info. i sure need it


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## Gologit (Jul 13, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> by the end of the week I will have so many different cutting methods and chain variations to choose from.. haha. thanks again for the info. i sure need it



Cutting techniques are just tools to get your job done. It's not as complicated as a lot of people like to make it seem but it does require focus and attention. Total focus and total attention. Every tree, every time. 

Use the methods that work the best for you. When you get enough experience you'll have a better understanding of that. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking "if I do this, the tree will do that" and expecting it to work every time without variation. Books, like Dent's or Beranek's can give you some good basic ideas on technique and safety and you should read and study them.
But remember, the trees don't read the books and very often they'll defy gravity, physics, logic, and try their very best to kill you.

Stay light on your feet. Look up. Look around. You don't know much yet but you're obviously learning. Keep at it.

I'm out of here.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

slowp said:


> Do they not have workmens' comp in Kentucky? Out here, the insurance rate goes up from an already high premium, if you have accidents. That's a major incentive to be safe. When accidents happen, the safety inspectors visit more, and fines happen. Big fines. That's more incentive.
> 
> Chainsaws...fallers around here use 460s with 32 inch bars and may have a 660 in the pickup. It is all second or third growth timber getting cut. My neighbor says that a 440 is good until you get into a predicament and then you need the extra power that a bigger saw will give.
> 
> ...


Thats more than I know


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## northmanlogging (Jul 13, 2014)

On the triangle and T coos, the idea is to nip the sides and then storm through the back cut, Tree won't (or at least shouldn't) fall until you sever the leg of the T or flatten the triangle... 

The object is to give you less wood to run through so less chance of a stall, and less wood for it to hang up on and cause a chair...


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## madhatte (Jul 13, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Nate, does all the oak over there have that much sap wood? looks funny to me as ours only will have a couple inches. oh and nice stumps.



Ha, who knows? Those aren't native here. They were all landscape trees that got the snot kicked out of them by an ice storm, which is why we were cutting them. 

And, thank you. I definitely take my time to make sure things go well.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

Gologit said:


> Either of these two methods work well with leaners. I usually use the triangle but that's mostly because it's easier for me to match my cuts. Either way will work.


In regards to your post Mathew,
The triangle cut is one I referred to as a V cut or diamond .
Anyways its for smaller diameter/ heavy leaner and NO it won't fall with that much holding wood (if I understood you right??) Its a four step cut, the diagram only showing the three 
1)undercut
2) lowside back cut
3) highside B. cut
4) 'straight' B/C in the direction of fall (hinge wood)
Its to speed up the B/C and reduce the barber chair potential.
In large diameter
The beaver tail (Tcut) is the one you would use on larger diameter heavy leaners, 3-4ft) the other danger in heavier trees is on a regular cut if the tree starts to lift slowly, all that extra extended weight is now at even a sharper angle puting emence pressure on the root system so it has to be done fast at the end. I would use a modified version on a bigger tree than that
on slope, cutting the "T" out from inside the undercut (if tree is stable enough as it may not allow me to reach from my B/C ) When starting your lowside back cut leaving you finishing with a back strap on the high ground side of the back cut. A root wad could be 50-60 ft+ on some species and/or depending on where its growing (rock) who wants to be down by the hinge?just because your on the high side, doesn't mean your not down a hill at your hinge with most of the tree above you.

Confused yet?..me too


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## bitzer (Jul 13, 2014)

Here are some humboldts with cleanly broken hinges. Some hearts gutted some not. With a Humboldt face the butt hits the ground first and lays out nice, which will help save out yer timber. Snipe accordingly. A snipe will give the butt a little extra jump or movement on the stump and keep fiber pull to a minimum.

Mike- I have some old pics on an SD card with a block face on a 54" red oak. I will try to dig em up. That was my biggest tree to date. Still 44" at first 16'. Not crazy tall though. Only 2 1/2 logs.

Green ash-heart gutted



White oak



Hard maple- full throttle back cut




Here is the T style coos bay on a really hard leaning hard maple. Heart is gutted also which I advise in hardwood. Most of that pull stickin out is from the stump, but it did pull from the butt a little. Acceptable to me if you had seen the tree. I never bore any back cuts ever. I'll bet its been two years now since I had last.



Humboldts are not usually the fastest way to through a face in hardwood. Most of the stump wood can be pretty gnarly and you end up cutting a lot of flair. Unless I'm high stumpin or have a reason, like steep ground or something I throw a conventional in. Snipes and heart guts when needed.

This maple would be a nightmare of back barring and horsing on the saw to get a humboldt in er.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

When I see a really big tree or a leaner what will i choose?


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## bitzer (Jul 13, 2014)

Matthew-there are a lot of reasons for faces, snipes, swing cuts, etc. It takes some time on the stump to figure them out. Getting your lay out set up for the day goes a long way to good production. I've walked up to the first tree I think I'm going to cut for the morning and I'm like well can't cut that one until I cut that one and so on. Before I know it I've got an entire days worth of timber cut before I get back to the first tree.


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## SliverPicker (Jul 13, 2014)

Mathew, where has your new job search taken you so far?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

i guess the best thing i can say to ya on leaners is gut them..........i think bitz n i agree that on leaning hard wood, it is the best strategy.
i even did that when i jumped.
i like a block now as well on some things, but it is still a bore cut although vertical instead of horizontal.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm planning on trying to sub some jobs and lease or buy a skidder. I want to work at my own pace and be safe and productive. Its the weekend so that wont be happening.


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 13, 2014)

Matt,
Do yourself a favor and buy a Granburg brand filing guide. It's not as fast as traditional hand-filing, but you can get you chains set to whatever angles you want and the train yourself (muscle memory) to match those angles in the field. they're around $30.00.


Use one of these to adjust your various angles to what suits you. Trust me, it will be the best small investment you will ever make. In Osage Orange (Hedge) I run 35º on the top strap and 5° down horizontally (affecting the working corner). The chains seem to last long and pull chips very well in hard wood. I might change the top-strap to 30° and 10° in softwood, but I'm pretty happy right now. Give a try and you won't regret it.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

i didn't think those would adjust for down angle...........i to like 35* but 10 down.
i been useing square this year.........gotta wear glasses to file it lol.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

bitzer said:


> Here are some humboldts with cleanly broken hinges. Some hearts gutted some not. With a Humboldt face the butt hits the ground first and lays out nice, which will help save out yer timber. Snipe accordingly. A snipe will give the butt a little extra jump or movement on the stump and keep fiber pull to a minimum.
> 
> Mike- I have some old pics on an SD card with a block face on a 54" red oak. I will try to dig em up. That was my biggest tree to date. Still 44" at first 16'. Not crazy tall though. Only 2 1/2 logs.
> 
> ...


 The last stump looks like what we call a west coast swanson
which is a humboldt with a sharp angle out of the front
(unless its a masive 'Dutchman'...lol)
it holds on a little longer as the piece of the stump it would close on is now gone. Its way safer for falling on an up hill degree, as the buts hits first taking the whip out of it preventing it from comming back at 'you' as well does it save on breakage. 
A humboldt and a conventional are both 45° cuts 1: .5: ratio (depth to opening)where as the swanson and birdsmouth are a 1: to 1: ratio.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i didn't think those would adjust for down angle...........i to like 35* but 10 down.
> i been useing square this year.........gotta wear glasses to file it lol.


That's what you call a sh_t hook... lol, text book would be 10° up on round chisel and flate for square, I very from that though but 10 up on round is pretty smooth with the dogs and
Produces long shavinges, would be good for hard wood hunboldt using the dogs (not so grabby)


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

i get long chips.............we may be losing somthing in translation here.........what i meant was to drop the file handle about 10..........i hand file with out any guide so may be not exact.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

wbf, do u use round or square? i am undecided on witch i think is faster.......


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 13, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> wbf, do u use round or square? i am undecided on witch i think is faster.......


I personally use .063 round chisel, square has definitely got its advantages in CLEAN wood, said to be about 5 - 7% quicker
A box of tri files or double bevel files here are over a hundreds bucks a box and have been for a long time, its time consuming to file, So many learn to grind, I doubt they would want to learn to hand file square in BC, I'm definitely no expert
either but have put some time and money in.
Round works good in the softwoods but its a little rough for the light bars in longer lengths. I'm a really good consistent round filer as for many younger guys its easier to learn to grind, use a Stihl light bar and" bobs your uncle".
Its a lot easier cleaning out your undercuts as it will bite in anywhere but if I come up short with round I have to pivot back on the dogs and
take another half moon.
I wouldn't mind grinding and running a light soon
Its going to be all about how clean your wood is for you, I know you guys cut low to the ground.


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## rwoods (Jul 13, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> boys, i bet no one in Matt's area knows any thing about directional falling.



Not to derail this thread, but the above is worth noting. I have kept quite about this issue for some time now since I am not a logger and haven't been close to logging in many many years. 

Growing up in the rural south, almost any person who lived off the land logged at some point or another. To my knowledge in those times there was no formal training offered, and for most there was almost no use of safety equipment (no eye, ear, head or cut protection) and no workers compensation. Men just worked hard and put trees on the ground. Trees fell where they fell. Skidders - what's a skidder? An old farm tractor or crawler, a truck and a jig to load the truck. Got these three and a saw = logger. Face cuts? Many just used a single cut on tall slender pines. TS called that stump jumping. I didn't know the name but I know the practice. I believe this is where the "farmer cut" came in to play here as it was thought to be safer. Bow saws were common. Who knows how many trees were felled using a bow instead of swapping on a bar. Many were maimed or killed. Product liability suits in the 80s due to dismemberment and decapitation drove the switch to chain brakes and the demise of the bow. So what as that was years ago - many present loggers are carrying on just like dad, grandpa and great grandpa did except they have a more modern saw, a skidder or some other piece of true logging equipment and some safety gear - they do not have the same skill set or mind set as a trained faller. Nor do some have workers compensation. Out West it seems to be different - in a better way. 

Matt, this is why you are being directed to listen to the West coast folks when it comes to falling techniques. And sadly, West coast folks, this is why sometimes that Non-West coast poster you think has never cut a tree claims that he or his daddy is a "logger" may actually be telling the truth.

And before any of my neighbors get their feathers ruffled let me state that there are knowledgeable and skilled loggers around here. They all know the type I described. 

Ron


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## 066blaster (Jul 13, 2014)

The owner shouldn't allow drinking on the job. It's a dangerous profession to begin with. When I was young I dealt with that stuff quite a bit. Worked part time for a farmer who would drink a case a day and run the big tractors. His biggest problem is he would get grouchy as heck. And start throwing hammers and stuff. Seen him stick a pitch fork in the side of a cow for stepping on his foot. I always felt bad for his wife. Nobody would dare say a word about his behavior though.


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## rwoods (Jul 13, 2014)

066blaster said:


> The owner shouldn't allow drinking on the job. It's a dangerous profession to begin with. When I was young I dealt with that stuff quite a bit. Worked part time for a farmer who would drink a case a day and run the big tractors. His biggest problem is he would get grouchy as heck. *And start throwing hammers and stuff.* Seen him stick a pitch fork in the side of a cow for stepping on his foot. I always felt bad for his wife. Nobody would dare say a word about his behavior though.



Are you talking about my dad? He didn't drink while raising his family but he did throw things at the livestock. Our tractors and our truck all had heavy metal tool boxes on the side with hammers, crescents, nuts, bolts, etc. I still vividly recall when an old bull head butted the pickup as we were trying to herd it to the pen. Pop got out, reached into the box, grabbed a two pound ball peen hammer and a carpenter hammer, one in each hand, clobber the old bull from 15 feet, hit him with the other hammer as soon as he was in position to retrieve the first, and repeated this sequence for a good 50 yards until the old bull got the point and moved with the herd. An 18" crescent works too. The old metal barreled Hotshots worked pretty well in the chute but more than one was bent too badly to remove the batteries after smacking an obstinate critter in the head.

Ron


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## 066blaster (Jul 13, 2014)

The cows always got him back. They would lean over and pin him between them and the stantions. Or step on his foot good enough it would crush his steel toes down and he couldn't get his boots off. He would throw the hammers then 10 seconds later say go get me a hammer. He just threw them blindly.


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## rwoods (Jul 13, 2014)

Quick follow up on herding technique - don't try this at home but if you must you aim for the neck (or head if the neck isn't available) not the rear. The critical point is to keep the critter's head pointed in the right direction and not pointed at you. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

naw Ron, he was speaking as to the OPs original problem lol.
now what you just said was well said, and describes me to a T..........after generations in this b'ness, i am the first i believe to use true directional falling.
and that is largely due to the fine folks here.
oh, and if i have missed thanking any who have helped me along.....thanks! [where is owl]


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

yeah there are three generations on the log site I was just on. None of them can hear. The grandson has been in the woods since he was 7. Hardly any of them know the meaning of the word safety. Surprisingly the youngest who is 23 is the most aware of safety issues, even though they aren't used


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

well, alot of safety in the woods is awareness...........while i get what your saying, don't discount good sense.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

I'm already past the original post and ready to move on with life. Funny you mentioned the tractor instead of a skidder. I skidded 40' logs last summer alone with a John Deere tractor and an 800lb weight on the front.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 13, 2014)

My observations to this point.
1) Bitzer remains the man, even tho he's still a kid
2) Bob (real bob) is correct as always, and my statements are *not* based out of 50 years on the saw
3) westboast (I really hate that name, sorry),treeslayer, and silver are helping where they can.
4) the OP is not ready for a solo show. I understand (and can occasionally execute) everything that has been said so far, and I'm not ready for a solo show. If TS or the Bitz would take me under a wing for 6 months, maybe.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

IDK Jon,,,,,,,,,,,,,ol Matt may be sand baggin a lil lol..........any man pulled timber with a tractor for long has been around the woods a bit. i have skidded with every thing but a horse...............


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## matthew sparks (Jul 13, 2014)

I cut down a bunch of pine trees to build log cabins. I probably pinched my saw 50 times on 400 trees. That is how I had the equipment to go logging for a company. I was in a wooded area that was thin and flat. I just did a normal notch and sawed from the back. I had one land on the stump. All the other trees fell on a dime. I guess I got lucky. I had to keep a 400.00 saw from lowes with me to get all the pinches out. I did buy a wedge at harbor freight but I guess I didnt ever put it in far enough. my bar got hund a lot. This summer was my first time working for anyone else or cutting hardwoods


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 13, 2014)

sounds like reading a tree is where ya need to work on it..........but the wedge will work once ya get the hang of it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 14, 2014)

well i got better before I was done with the pines. I was scared to use my tip on limbs, etc., I finally figured out what I needed to get by but would still hate to be logging alone without an extra bar or saw


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## HuskStihl (Jul 14, 2014)

Ya, I'm probably putting a foot in my mouth again. I'm just used to the F&L boys pretty much knowing everything, but everybody has to start somewhere. As I've said, I'm pullin for ya. U'r dropping pines on dimes, and I'm putting them on fences/sheds/etc, so I've got no authority on this matter! Just think your way thru every situation, and if it's not adding up, don't do it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 14, 2014)

I guess my biggest thing is when things go wrong someday. It always will. I don't believe anyone is good enough to put a tree on a dime every time. The other day I was cutting a tree and after boring it and doing the angled back cut so it would break off. I was in a creek and almost shoulder deep and scared. When I cut the 28" red oak went right where it should but then the tree proceeded to back up into the creek about 3 feet after it fell. I was 10 ft back by the time it did this but I saw how fast that huge log was coming at me even though it was on the ground. I assume a limb or vine got hit or caught as it fell to the ground but it scared me. BAD! Only thing I have had happen. What I worry about is one falling so fast or kicking back the whole tree at a speed I can't get out of the way of. 

All of this has probably happened to all the experienced cutters here but it hasn't to me. I am more scared of what the tree will do when I don't do something right. Working with someone else won't really teach me that around here. They just all stay away from anyone falling trees and if they don't hear your saw after a while they yell to make sure your okay so I don't really know how to prepare myself for something like that. 

Additionally, we have seven pages here of discussion. Some was just conversation and most of it has been very thought out, helpful advice. I appreciate this more than you all realize


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## MountainHigh (Jul 14, 2014)

Matthew ... these links might be helpful to you:

*BC Faller Training*
http://www2.worksafebc.com/Publications/Multimedia/Videos.asp?ReportID=36885

Some info into how professional logging companies are expected to work:
*BC Faller Training Standard - Field Examination & Evaluation*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5t7e0FYdmw


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Ya, I'm probably putting a foot in my mouth again. I'm just used to the F&L boys pretty much knowing everything, but everybody has to start somewhere. As I've said, I'm pullin for ya. U'r dropping pines on dimes, and I'm putting them on fences/sheds/etc, so I've got no authority on this matter! Just think your way thru every situation, and if it's not adding up, don't do it.


That's it, 'as we like to say' ( do) "plan the work and work the plan"


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 14, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I guess my biggest thing is when things go wrong someday. It always will. I don't believe anyone is good enough to put a tree on a dime every time. The other day I was cutting a tree and after boring it and doing the angled back cut so it would break off. I was in a creek and almost shoulder deep and scared. When I cut the 28" red oak went right where it should but then the tree proceeded to back up into the creek about 3 feet after it fell. I was 10 ft back by the time it did this but I saw how fast that huge log was coming at me even though it was on the ground. I assume a limb or vine got hit or caught as it fell to the ground but it scared me. BAD! Only thing I have had happen. What I worry about is one falling so fast or kicking back the whole tree at a speed I can't get out of the way of.
> 
> All of this has probably happened to all the experienced cutters here but it hasn't to me. I am more scared of what the tree will do when I don't do something right. Working with someone else won't really teach me that around here. They just all stay away from anyone falling trees and if they don't hear your saw after a while they yell to make sure your okay so I don't really know how to prepare myself for something like that.
> 
> Additionally, we have seven pages here of discussion. Some was just conversation and most of it has been very thought out, helpful advice. I appreciate this more than you all realize


10 ft (3m)away from the stump is where you need to be...or a cover tree, and watch your canopy. ..in other words look up at all time.
once you find a 'hole' watch what the canopy is doing.
90% of fallers killed are found WITHIN 10ft of the stump.
and I'm sure you will find that in the BC Fallers legislation that
M H just provided. Follow those safe work practices.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 14, 2014)

I don't know if I go 6 ,10 or 30 ft. i hear a crack and run like hell haha. I do have my path clear before I even cut my notch. actually a few clear.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 14, 2014)

Its late but I have a lot to read over tomorrow. Im ready to get back to work. We have record low temps this week and wont have the 95-100 degree heat we had this weekend.


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 14, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i get long chips.............we may be losing somthing in translation here.........what i meant was to drop the file handle about 10..........i hand file with out any guide so may be not exact.



That's what I was getting at and yes the Granberg does have a horizontal axis adjustment. It just doesn't do square w/o modification.


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## madhatte (Jul 14, 2014)

Locust Cutter said:


> That's what I was getting at and yes the Granberg does have a horizontal axis adjustment. It just doesn't do square w/o modification.



It's easy enough to set up a File-N-Joint to file square. You do have to flip the saw and bar over to get the other side.


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> My observations to this point.
> 1) Bitzer remains the man, even tho he's still a kid
> 2) Bob (real bob) is correct as always, and my statements are *not* based out of 50 years on the saw
> 3) westboast (I really hate that name, sorry),treeslayer, and silver are helping where they can.
> 4) the OP is not ready for a solo show. I understand (and can occasionally execute) everything that has been said so far, and I'm not ready for a solo show. If TS or the Bitz would take me under a wing for 6 months, maybe.


Lol... I wont blame dyslexia for this one, people obviously didn't like my pun, poking fun of a stereotype, prehaps in poor taste on my part.
Well now you said it, its probably time to move past the user name
I do respect you and TS for Two that stand out to me for your individualism, as its clear you are your own men and aren't afraid to differ from the
the 'old' cronies.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 14, 2014)

Well, I regret saying anything about u'r name. I have one of the stupidest usernames on here 'cause I panicked when they made me sign up to ask my one question 2 years ago. I get the self-deprecating humor.

I am also definitely *not* my own man, as I am only able to respond to this because _she who must be obeyed _is not currently in my presence


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## Westboastfaller (Jul 14, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Well, I regret saying anything about u'r name. I have one of the stupidest usernames on here 'cause I panicked when they made me sign up to ask my one question 2 years ago. I get the self-deprecating humor.
> 
> I am also definitely *not* my own man, as I am only able to respond to this because _she who must be obeyed _is not currently in my presence


Lol, when the cats away the mice will play
.....In a respectful way
respecting your woman is respecting youself
...the user name?...lol me too, the best and worst things in life are most spontaneous my friend, I'm a very spontaneous person. "Self deprecating" self deprecating is cool in jest and exudes confidence IMO , deprecating one in a belittling sense is not !yes I don't mind been the butt of the joke either, as you obviously don't mind making light of yourself.
Peace, Jamie


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 14, 2014)

Jamie....i had forgotton your name.....sorry.
my own man? yes, but i have much respect for the older fallers here..........Bob, Randy, Glen, Owl and even bitzer tho he is younger than i.
i would still be jumpin every thing if i hadn't listened.
its ok Jamie, you have a little different way of speaking but ive figured you out.......your ok lol.
is it hot over there? i can't stand it........10 minutes on the saw n im soaked.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 14, 2014)

madhatte said:


> It's easy enough to set up a File-N-Joint to file square. You do have to flip the saw and bar over to get the other side.


thats totaly different angles than what i been useing but im using the 6 sided file...........i would like to try a three side file, i don't think it would hit the tie strap.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 14, 2014)




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## madhatte (Jul 14, 2014)

Those are the little 6-sided ones. If you look really close, you can see that the short side is in the corner with the long side under the top plate. It looks like you have the angle just about right, though. Also, don't fret hitting the tie strap. It's gonna happen, and it's OK.


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## bitzer (Jul 15, 2014)

Westboastfaller said:


> The last stump looks like what we call a west coast swanson
> which is a humboldt with a sharp angle out of the front
> (unless its a masive 'Dutchman'...lol)
> it holds on a little longer as the piece of the stump it would close on is now gone. Its way safer for falling on an up hill degree, as the buts hits first taking the whip out of it preventing it from comming back at 'you' as well does it save on breakage.
> A humboldt and a conventional are both 45° cuts 1: .5: ratio (depth to opening)where as the swanson and birdsmouth are a 1: to 1: ratio.



Actually that was a narrow conventional with a full face Dutchman (a little snipe in there too). I gutted about 80% of the hinge out. I needed the tree off the stump asap on that one. Kind of a funky camera angle on it. I like learning different terms for face cuts. Its funny how every region has their own dialect.


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## bitzer (Jul 15, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> My observations to this point.
> 1) Bitzer remains the man, even tho he's still a kid
> 2) Bob (real bob) is correct as always, and my statements are *not* based out of 50 years on the saw
> 3) westboast (I really hate that name, sorry),treeslayer, and silver are helping where they can.
> 4) the OP is not ready for a solo show. I understand (and can occasionally execute) everything that has been said so far, and I'm not ready for a solo show. If TS or the Bitz would take me under a wing for 6 months, maybe.



Hey who you callin a kid gramps?  As of yesterday I've got a teenager as my oldest! So it sounds like there is a chance you want to let loose and go loggin huh?


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## bitzer (Jul 15, 2014)

Mike- I bought the used on-road motor for $2k. It took me about 18 hours to get everything switched over. That's not including driving to napa and the local farm supply for various hoses, bolts, electrical, etc. I used my original fuel inj pump (1 year on rebuild) and turbo. Had some timing issues called a buddy and had her runnin. 2 miles down the road to next job (yep 2 miles to go chains and all) she dies and upon re-start is blowin oil out of the front main and breather like a *****. Get towed back to shed I was workin on it and made some calls. It seemed like the turbo was the only possibility for pressurizing the crankcase since it was the only part that was the same. Tried getting it apart myself (nope) so I took it to a shop and had it rebuilt ($500) . Threw new turbo on, same ****. REALLY?!! Took original engine apart. 3 busted rings on three different pistions. Took newer used engine out and apart, 3 busted rings on three different pistons. So aside from being super pissed and frustrated, my wife asking me if I know what the **** I'm doing and when am I going to be logging again ( no bills getting paid at this time) I decide to rebuild original motor with the guidance of a mechanic buddy who does it for a living. It needed to be bored and sleeved and the friend of my mechanic buddy was going to do it for $300. Well he only does it on the side when he has time, yada, yada, so I said **** it and I added on to an already growing loan and bought a re-con motor from Cummins. I traded the newer used one in for the core credit of $2k and I also got $500 out of the guy I bought the newer used one from. The re-con cost me $6500. 10 hours after I had the new motor I was logging. This entire process took about a month and yeah it was during break up and logging would have been slow anyway, but it sucked! Of course its been a really wet year (not record breaking yet, but I will bet its close). So sorry for the long drawn out de-rail but this thread was pretty well ****ed anyway. Hind sight I could have and should have done a lot of things differently, but I sure learned a lot. I tend to learn the hard way from ****ing things up and putting them back together a few times. I also plan to rebuild my original motor and sell it. Probably going to cost me about $1000 and I should be able to sell it for $4k or so.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 15, 2014)

No luck on jobs so far. The ones I solicited on my own are not worth it. The logs are just too small and not enough of them. The sawmill currently has no jobs to sub out. He was very nice but he said he has so many logs coming in that he has kind of given log owners the cold shoulder because he hasn't had time to mess with them. Seems strange but business is done weird in KY sometimes.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 15, 2014)

dam Bob that sucks.........but i been there..........i think one of the detroits is gonna crap out, and not the one i thought would.
i wonder if yer turbo was going and thats what got the rings in both engines?

Matt, its hard getting started bro..........just put yer head down and keep at it, it will get better but not easyer.


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## Locust Cutter (Jul 15, 2014)

I'm surprised if the turbo was that bad, that it didn't either hydro-lock worse (bending rods) or cause the newer engine to run away.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 15, 2014)

i was thinkin fins n debris goin in the chambers..........IDK


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## hammerlogging (Jul 15, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> it will get better but not easyer.



that's the truth right there!


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 15, 2014)

hammerlogging said:


> that's the truth right there!


hey there, hot enough for ya?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 15, 2014)

The weather here went from 95 degrees and humid to 77 and no humidity. This sure would be a good week to be cutting timber....


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## matthew sparks (Jul 18, 2014)

Well just an update guys..... I have a logging contract I am about to take. There are some variables or I guess you would say options and I have some wild ideas. I kind of wanted your thoughts. I could post this in a different thread but the ones who have followed this thread have taught me a lot and I would rather continue my journey from here.

I have contracted with someone that has a lot of hardwoods on 140 acres. I have the sawmill offering 1.10 a bd ft for stave logs. I haven't consulted other mills on prices or anything of that nature, so I don't know where I stand at that price. 

I do have another option with this property. This may be off the wall. but I have to ask. His property is full of HUGE Loblolly Pines. He said they are free. He wants them gone. I already did the math and there is no way to make money on these trees taking them to a pulp mill, but I hate to see these trees going to waste. If you were to cut these trees, take the logs home and mill them into tongue and groove flooring or just finished pine boards would it be a waste of time or would it actually make me some money for work on rainy days when you can't be in the woods?

I can just keep looking for other logging jobs but he is offering me free trees that aren't profitable on the stump so I just wanted everyones opinion. 

Thanks again everyone. I have already learned so much through all of you. I am excited to get started. It will probably take a few weeks for me to get things organized before I start posting pictures and results.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 18, 2014)

thats very good for staves......if the lobs are big why can't you sell them as logs? pays .30 a foot here.......was 40 some years back.
but now what ya call big.......30" 90' is a good pine here tho they do get bigger.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 18, 2014)

like these cut at 52'


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## matthew sparks (Jul 18, 2014)

Well the papermill is the only place within 40 miles that accepts Pine logs and they only pay pulp wood price by the ton. I am not sure what it is but it is low enough here most logging companies here mow the trees down just to get to hardwoods. Huge isn't huge I guess. These trees are 26-40".


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 19, 2014)

thats a shame.............i think i'd make a few calls if i was you.........they nice trees and with nuthin in um you could pay freight and still make money.


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## Gologit (Jul 19, 2014)

Sparks...you're going to get quite an education.

Do you have a skidder and a loader leased or are you going to hire it done?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

I am buying a grapple skidder. I will not be able to afford a knuckle boom or a truck for a while. This job is 3 miles form the sawmill. I am considering the option of hauling on my gooseneck or selling them at the landing. I really have to find out those options before I take this any further. 

I know I am going to screw some things up Gologit, but I see money there and have to try. I have had trouble getting financing for a skidder because I have only done business with my local credit union and they said they don't finance equipment that they don't have the ability to repossess or appraise. They even mentioned some possible banks and apologized. I will probably just be paying cash.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

Feel free to keep me from making some mistakes. If you say STOP or DON'T then I will probably listen. This land is flat and I almost considered buying one of those nice Grapples to go on my John Deere tractor for $5,000 but I have read through the posts and the people that started out said buy a skidder and go cut so unless I am select cutting and doing low impact with an ATV I may as well buy a skidder.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 19, 2014)

Just my opinion and its not worth much, you will probably be better off with a cable skidder, if your falling and bucking solo, then a grapple is going to be more machine then you can put to use, like I said though its just my opinion.

The goose neck thing works if you can get enough wood on there to make the trip worthwhile, while still being safe, 1000mbf is more like 1500 actual board feet, and a whole lot more weight then most folks take into account. Just make sure you're not overloading your brakes and trailer... 

Loading the damn thing is another question, while its possible to use the grapples on the skidder to load with I don't imagine its easy or efficient...
This is coming from a guy who spent the day loading a dump truck full of firewood logs with a backhoe... 

Call around, there may be a mill farther out that is paying a decent price for pine. Phone calls are cheap.

Also call the mills and see if they have any self loader jockeys that they will recommend. Or start chasing down any self loaders you see and get their number... Most of these folks are looking for work anyway, them truck payments are a headache. The self loader folks will have a pretty good idea as to who is a better mill to send to vis a vis, they've managed to keep me out of at least a little bit of trouble... It may seem like a lot of money to pay a self loader to haul your logs, but in the end you are left to skid more logs, they take over the loading, driving, waiting at the mill, dicking with the weight cops, insurance, traffic, flat tires, tree huggers cutting you off... and in the end the amount you would have spent on pulling 3 loads behind your truck is usually less then what you would loose the the loader jockey for one load, not to mention the mills are a whole lot happier to see 5k bf vs 1k.

Now that I reread yer posts and get my head a little clearer... You should be able to use your tractor to load logs with if it has a front loader on it and some girth, just add some fork looking things and go nuts, but be careful its fairly easy to have a log come over the top and pin you to the seat...

Anyway take her slow, look up, observe, make a plan, stick to the plan, and don't be afraid to alter the plan if needed... and look up


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## Hans1 (Jul 19, 2014)

A lot of good info for the OP don't discount the bore cut method you have learned it is one tool in the box but a good one in high value hardwood timber. One point that hasn't been brought up is to search to see is there is any TSI work in your area great way to have a lot of practice trees and build a good reputation in the forestry community. As this is my first post good move on removing yourself from the original situation.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

Thanks very much Northman. I have thought about just using my tractor for everything but it is only 2WD. I haven't ever got it stuck but I also haven't put a front end loader on it either. I just have a huge weight mounted to the front I made in order to keep it from flipping when I was skidding 40 ft logs for a log cabin last year. Poor tractor sure did spin a lot. 

I thought a grapple would be best so I didn't have to get on and off the skidder. Again another lesson I need to learn before I buy I guess. I have jsut been shopping until my mechanic buddy who knows a lot about skidders can go look at it


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

HANS I just now saw your post. I am sorry to seem like the greenest timber cutter you will ever meet but what is TSI? Is that cutting government jobs?


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## northmanlogging (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm not big on 4 wheel drive tractors, if you need 4 wheels drive to plow ground its too ****ing wet... but I digress

Anyway, if you build yourself a decent landing, one with solid ground and good drainage, you shouldn't need 4x4 to move logs with the tractor, granted a skidder is a different beast altogether and if you don't need 4wheel drive in a skidder your doing something wrong.

Been using the hoe on the back hoe, set up with a crappy set of log tongs for the firewood thing, its slow but it works, works a little fast with two people but a guy can get the job done. For a trailer I would probably go from the side though and use forks on the front bucket like I said, down side is you need to have a fairly large chunk of ground to move around in.

I don't haul much fire wood so a the odd load here and there its not so bad. Plus its pretty good side money.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

I wish I thought I could make money cutting firewood. I just don't think I could afford the production equipment to go big enough to make a large income.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

ah TSI is timber stand improvement. I don't know where you get those exact contracts but I would take them. I have bills to pay but learning and building a reputation will help a lot


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## HuskStihl (Jul 19, 2014)

Hey Matthew, what size tractor do you own, and do you have a way to add counterweight in the back? I have zero logging experience, but lots of "putting something way too heavy in my tractor bucket/grapple" experience. Start with as little equipment as you can safely get by with, and acquire more as your workload increases. 
I'm sending imaginary rep to Northy and the Slayer for being so helpful to a fellow "one man bander". Good on'ya mates.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 19, 2014)

Matt, a grapple works good for selections but only if you get a small one..........a 12' wide monster will drive ya nuts unless yer doing a clear cut.
we can help ya alot with skidder info, let us know the make n model of what yer lookin at.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 19, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I wish I thought I could make money cutting firewood. I just don't think I could afford the production equipment to go big enough to make a large income.


The fyrewood game is a racket, unless you get a processor you'll end up spending all your money at the chiropractor, even then... Granted I still sell a load now and then, I try to stay out of the work of it.


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## Gologit (Jul 19, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I know I am going to screw some things up Gologit, but I see money there and have to try.



Of course you'll screw up, everybody does. Anybody that tells you different is lying. New guys tend to screw up more but that's to be expected. Just try to keep small mistakes from becoming major disasters. Screw ups can be learning opportunities if you let them. If you find yourself making the same mistakes more than a couple of times you better take a look at what you're doing wrong. Soon, too.

That old saying "do something, even if it's wrong" never works very well in logging. _Plan_ your work, but be flexible too. Don't give yourself any days off at first. If you're not logging on weekends go out there anyway, while it's quiet and you can look things over without being bothered.
Walk the ground, think about ways to move your logs more efficiently. Every time you move a log it costs you money. Look for ways to eliminate excess handling. Time is your enemy.

Know your markets. Mills aren't in business to make you rich and if you fail they don't really care. Be very aware that they think you're an idiot for working like you do. Don't prove them right. Know your prices. Don't depend on their sense of fairness or even their honesty in every case. Watch your scale tickets. Get your prices set before you ever cut a stick.
Learn how to buck for grade. I don't know much about the timber in your part of the country but from all the different species, grades, and buyers it would seem that bucking is where you'd determine the best value out of every log. And every log counts.

Know your expenses and I mean every expense. Every penny. That doesn't mean you have to be a cheapskate but unless you know what it's costing you to log you might not know how much you're losing until it's too late. Logging is one of the few businesses where you can be working so hard that you don't know you're going broke until you have. 

Work on your own machinery as much as possible. If that means staying in the woods all night working by pickup headlights to get something ready for the next day that's what you do. If it calls for working all weekend to be up and running for Monday that's just part of the program. If something breaks, fix it as soon as you can. Maintenance doesn't cost as much as down time and down time will just absolutely kill you.

These are just generalities but maybe they'll help. I can't advise you on everything that you'll need to be successful but some things about this business are constant no matter where you work. I don't know much about logging except the logging I've done. To me an oak or a maple, or any hardwood for that matter, is just a damn weed. I've logged a lot of oak but it was never any more than necessary to open up roads or clear landings. A lot of what I do out here doesn't really relate to what you're doing but the way I've been taught and the way I've worked has provided me with a good living for many years.

If you really want to log I think you should give it a try. If you find that it's not what you really wanted you'll at least know for sure.


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## slowp (Jul 19, 2014)

How is your family going to deal with it? Something else to think of. Some spouses know and went into the marriage knowing that the logger they were marrying was not going to be home much. Some can't handle it. Some go out and help. Some loggers take their whole family out when there is machinery maintenance to be done on the weekends. Some friends of mine were married with the caveat that he would find another line of work because she wanted him to be home at reasonable hours at night. He did and they raised some pretty good kids. He's getting back into doing small jobs, but the kids are all adults and two of the boys help out. 

Work hard, but don't neglect your family and keep them up and maybe even out on what you are doing.

I agree with Northman that a grapple skidder would be more versatile. You can work steep ground if you have enough winch line. Remember, it is easier to pull line DOWN the hill.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

I have a 4400 series John Deere. It had been up at the farm for almost 9 months so I can't remember the exact series number. It is an open cab diesel with no loader on the front. I have a 12.000lb badlands winch on the front that was used maybe 3 times when I was logging those pine trees when the tractor would just spin. 

Gologit I really enjoyed your post. I have to be honest with you I am scared about starting this, but that doesn't mean it will stop me. I have had a commercial caviar business and still do. I have found myself swimming in 33 degree water from a small mistake that turned into a huge disaster( no I didn't leave the plug out) However, the following month I made 30k fishing alone. 

You touched on the bucking and log value. That is my biggest concern. I know what a stave log is on a nice white oak, but I don't know how to tell about anything in between there and railroad tie logs. I know I will make my money at the landing. I had touched on selling my logs at the landing and hiring a forester or broker to grade my logs. I think thats the only question I have asked that I still don't know is completely stupid or if I should be paying someone to grade for me. What you mow down to make a road is what sells here. White oaks are being bought up in this area like crazy with big prices compared to what we usually get here. If i get a 1.10 a bd ft thats great. I just have to make sure I'm not getting paid .70 a bd ft because of made up defects by buyers that they would pull because I am green.

I am not going to be a whiner. I am however going to work as hard as I can not to make mistakes. All cutting here seems to be select cutting 18" or more of any hardwood. Nothing else is touched.

My wife has known nothing slows me down. I have four boys that have been raised around commercial fishing and have no worries of including them in the logging industry. All of the work ethic you have touched on is who I am. I am used to 100+ hour weeks. I can't stand the thought of working for an hourly wage, or sitting around when there is money waiting on me. My wife doesn't care what business I am in as long as her credit card to her favorite store in the mall still works.


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## rwoods (Jul 19, 2014)

Matthew, what are we talking here "4400 series"? Something like this: 
or something like this: 
. If it is the little guy then I have one and you should get something else. Ron


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## HuskStihl (Jul 19, 2014)

I had the same question. If it's the 35 hp yanmar, prolly not gonna work with a grapple. Matthew you have the advantage of having run a small business before. Gologit's post could easily be applied to any small business model. Every penny you can avoid spending at the job is one you can have at home. Every ounce of energy you can avoid putting into the woods is one you can spend playing with u'r kids. Again, best of luck


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## matthew sparks (Jul 19, 2014)

It is a bigger tractor. Not the second picture. Last year when I was trying to order a 3 point grapple I cant remember exactly but it basically looks like your first picture with an open cab. It seems like it was 86 hp. I cant remember if that was at pto or at engine. It is a category 2 so you know its over 50 hp. I will go to the farm later and see what it is because its bugging me. I could have swore it was a 4420 but when I looked on tractor data it was not my tractor. I will just take a picture of it today or tomorrow for that matter. If I was going to use something as small as your other picture I would just use my 4x4 honda fourtrax and a logging arch which I thought about doing before to offer strictly low impact logging. I just don't know if I would make any money that way. 

Thanks guys.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 19, 2014)

If you got the cash go ahead and get a skidder, tractors are fine and all for farmers wanting to pull a load or two while the corn is growing or the snow is blowing, not so much for a person wanting to make a living at it. Barring a skidder a small dozer with a winch would work fairly well, just slower then a skidder, although you could work steeper ground.

To put it in perspective one of my early jaunts into logging involved a ford 9n and a crappy 3pt arch, 6 week ends(probably more its been awhile), one light load, spread out like pick up sticks. Watching the self loader toss them logs around and load the truck in 30 minutes with us trying to drag the strays to him, pretty much set the tone for my next purchase.

Gologit pretty much nailed it though, lots of crazy hours, lots of broken stuff that needs fixing... lots of grease... still would rather be doing this than the current day job (which is looking less and less necessary every week).

As far as selling the logs at the landing, its more of a regional thing, not done so much out here. Some mills want to send out a buyer, so they can give you a price fitting the wood while its standing, my experience with them has been less then savory, (oh yeah they shut down a couple years ago... bastids...) others really do want to come out and make a cruise so they can give you a price that fits the timber. Some outfits still buy on the landing (poles) but most would just like to see yer logs in their yard. Here they buy everything, and cull the culls, grading is done by the log rather then the load, although some mills scale by weight. Which I admittedly don't know much about. Anyway what I'm getting at is call around see how each mill prefers to operate, and go with it. 

Private foresters are a mixed bag as much as gypo loggers are, (which by default you are soon to be a gypo, make us proud). Some are crooks with borderline educations, others are geniuses with borderline crookedness... just have to be careful while working with them until you find one that's not going to get you hosed.

For the forest brokers, most of the wood I send goes to what is technically a broker, they buy everything, and I mean everything, then they have to turn around and sell it. They may not pay as well on some species, but its easy the checks don't bounce and the rate isn't so much lower that I feel robbed at the end of the day. On some things they will pay much higher, since they are really an exporter, and export is gold... The bonus with these folks is they take mixed loads, so I can send them Fir, Pine, Maple, Cotton Wood, Ceder, Alder, Cherry, Hemlock, White Fir, Tamarack, and a few more I can't remember... all in one load, they don't care. Well they might but the scales are always OK so I don't *****... much...

Anyway to reiterate you really need to make some phone calls to the local mills talk to their log buyer, or at least the nice office people and find out for yourself what they want and how.

Also there is a program called height weight buck? kind of a redneck video game for bucking logs, I believe its from the university of Minnisota? Gives you a sudo 3d "log" complete with knots, heart rot, and crooked bits, you draw lines on it and compare the "ideal" bucking to what you did, points are how much cash you made vs how much you could have made... its geared towards hard maple but really all logs are about the same as far as defect, Stave, peelers, 1-2-3 saw logs, pallet etc, all depends on length+diameter-defect (not to be confused with board feet, as in logs X big or bigger and such length, of good quality=peelers or stave, anything less is well less...)


boy that's a mouthful enjoy, now quit talking and start making logs....


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## HuskStihl (Jul 19, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> , now quit talking and start making logs....



Just made one, thanks!


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## matthew sparks (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks so much northmanlogging. By the way I was thinking of my old tractor. My tractor is a 5220 53 hp diesel John Deere. 

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/001/5/6/1569-john-deere-5220.html

I will have to read what you wrote a few times and have to wait on logging until I get a skidder. Then I have to learn how to run the skidder . haha. oh well at least they are designed to handle a roll.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 20, 2014)

not much different than a tractor to drive, the articulation is a little weird to get used to, but don't take long to figure out.

They may be built to handle a roll... but they sure don't like it, and they are very expensive to put right side up.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 20, 2014)

Luckily the first site I will be working on is so flat i could probably used my truck to skid. Will be a good practice area.


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## rwoods (Jul 20, 2014)

Matthew, a man can go broke before he even starts work by buying equipment and you can go broke because you don't have the right equipment. Below is a link to the specs of a JD440B. As you can see it weighs at least 3 times as much as your tractor. The loggers here can correct me but I believe this is considered a small skidder by today's standards. Not saying you can't get by skidding small logs on flat ground with your tractor but you got to be more careful with impact loads, including snagging your log or tractor on a stump. The cost of a new rear-end or transmission work on your tractor could easily exceed the price of an old skidder. If you are not using your tractor for other purposes you might should consider cashing it in or trading it for the right equipment. If you are using it for other purposes then a break may have other costly consequences. Other than generalities you can value my comments at what you paid for them. Ron

https://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/non_current/skidders/440B cable skidder.pdf


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## Gologit (Jul 20, 2014)

That's good advice.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 20, 2014)

yes, northy nailed it! i too sell mostly to a broker and he treats me very well on tree length loads......he grades them.......i am lucky.
for the record, i don't trust those that want to come and look at my standing timber.......you will find there are sharks in the water.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 20, 2014)

U'r current tractor is roughly the same weight and power as my old 2wd tractor, which really wasn't enough to move logs at a rate I was happy with. I also broke a tie rod when I hit a stump while looking backwards, which wasn't expensive, but was a PITA waiting for the part. Regarding the truck, my property is pretty flat, and my "skidder" (old land cruiser with a cable and hook) can pull 36" ~16' without much drama.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks guys. I can't trade in the tractor. I will have some issues over the next week. I have good credit but my credit union is small and they can't finance me on a skidder because they do not finance money on things they do not have in a valuation chart or some crap and they don't lend on things they don't have the ability to repossess. 
The only place around here that would finance me on one was a kubota dealer with a very, very, small skidder that costs way too much so I am going to go to a national bank tomorrow and try there. I know my credit score is high enough. If that bank gives me the same run around I will have to go to a Cat dealer but there just aren't any Cat dealers around here listing used equipment as far as skidder. I have looked online at equipment leasing companies but haven't proceeded with them and don't want too many inquiries on my credit report. 

Gologit I am trying to find a broker now. I just feel like if I find someone that treats me right it will take a lot of the guess work and worry out of selling logs. The only person I have found so far is a white oak buyer for american stave company. Nobody else for all of my logs so far. 

Thanks for all the advice everyone.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 20, 2014)

Sorry for putting this in the same post but I just had a lightbulb go off from a phone call that is forcing me to ask this question and I have to focus on a skidder but wondered what if there would be any money in this.

I live in a very small community and a guy called I went to school with years ago that heard I was logging. He cuts firewood for a living. He clearly doesn't make any money. Old trucks, lives in a camper. Just a redneck from KY as you would picture. 

He was looking for treetops and any log ends I cut off when bucking. Nice guy, but of course I had to tell him I don't even have a skidder to start work yet but he was more than welcome to call me back in a few weeks. I had mentioned firewood cutting before and discussed I thought there was no money in it or didn't see how to make money in it. 

I then proceeded to ask him his prices because he was a talkative guy and he said he makes 100.00 a cord. I then proceeded to ask him if that was a face cord. He said no. That was a full cord. 

A full cord up in Chicago is advertised at 450.00 a cord. I could buy it processed for 100.00 a cord. We are in the same quarantine area as them for the bugs. I wonder how hard it would be for the USDA allow me to skip right over the state line to haul wood up there to a wholesaler? I wouldn't even have to cut it. Just broker it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 21, 2014)

Looks like a guy through LeaseQ has approved me for a skidder. I may be asking some questions on the skidders available for purchase. Too you guys with small scale or 1 skidder operations what is the cheapest I can get a good quality skidder for in your opinion of what a good skidder is? Thanks guys


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 21, 2014)

MO....7500 cable, 10000 grapple.............much less would be pretty junky. but thats my expieriance here.

i much prefer power shift..........shy away from any thing straight manual.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 21, 2014)

I was thinking at least 15k. For that money I can get in the woods pretty quick


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 21, 2014)

you should be able to find somthing, look for exesive play at the articulation center section and front cradle.......worn egged out housing is alot of work to fix.
power shifts should be shifted up under full power and there should be no lag what so ever.......soft dirt it should almost spin the wheels at shift.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 21, 2014)

Skidders, saws and trucks... many opinions and they all stink!

I'm partial to my manual tranny... partly cause I've never ran a skidder with a power shift. but then the Deere phsycho rage is a little different than the standared trannys is most manual skidders

A few names and by all means not a comprehensive list.

Timberjack now owned by Deere, old ones are off the shelf parts

CanCar/Garrett/Tree Farmer/Franklin, Garretts started it, they all pretty much use off the shelf parts, All names derive from the original Garrett licence, just made in various factorys and countries overt the years

Clark, heavy beasts that from all accounts are nearly indistructable

International, hard to find these as they didn't make comparitively many, but its still an international, also know as a houghs

Deere, the 440-540 skidders are everywhere and cheap!, the newer versions are like flys, parts on anything Deere can get spendy... (I own a 440a)

Mountain Loggers, These are an odd duck, powerfull well made machines, but a little rare, still off the shelf parts... they made one with a 6v71 detroit... ****ing monster, 1" skid line breaking beasty... Really more of a regional thing, count yerself lucky to see one east of the mississippi...

Then there are the various tractor makes that never really took off, Masey Ferguson, Case, Allis chalmers, all made something resembling a skidder just not very many, Deer and Timberjack pretty much dominated, with garrett/cancar/franklin holding out for many many years (Garretts finally got sunk by old age)

Anyway they all have good points, just make sure you can get parts for whatever you end up getting, and that the winch works.

If I had it all to do again... And I had a choice of machines... I'd probably go with an older timberjack 200 series, with the funky off center super low slung cab. Or I would stick with the Deere, only get a slightly newer version with a turbo...

Then again I still have a feaky man crush for an old Garrett 15... v-4 ford power, gearamatic 9 winch, skinny little tires, slap stick steering...

As far as price, here you can get a decent machine for under 10k, sometimes closer to 5-6k. Not really skidder country

Don't be afraid to look for equipment out of state, shipping isn't to horribly bad to make a good deal not worth it.


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## bnmc98 (Jul 21, 2014)

dont forget CAT 518. 13k-18k around here


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## matthew sparks (Jul 21, 2014)

I have found two skidders so far under 10k. They are in Virginia. I don't know if your allowed to post links on here so here are the descriptions.

TIMBERJACK 230 Skidder, runs good, tires fair, new cable on winch, new seat, new rebuilt transmission, $8,000

CLARK 666 Skidder, runs good, everything works, tires fair, winch, $8,000


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 22, 2014)

that clark is twice the machine as that 230..........as long as its good.

northy, if you ever own a side winder jack, you'll run screaming back to yer 440 lol. they give alot of trans trouble.
of all the skidders we've had, a 230 and all the franklins i hated the most...........i know some folks love um, i'm just goin off my time with um.

i never had a cat.........they look good and im sure they will pull........parts are prolly high but they all are.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2014)

Forgot about the Cats... helluva machine there, funky articulation though...


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2014)

really the only reason I like the 200 jacks is they sit so low, easy in and out...


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 22, 2014)

it looks good......but once in the seat, if your used to sitting in the middle, its a pain. can't see what the right side wheels are on, dirt flyin in yer eyes from the tire.
and what seems like 20-30 levers lol.
yea the old cats roll in the back like a franklin.
i'd like to try a 300 of 400 sieries jack, they look good.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 22, 2014)

Hey Matthew, how are your mechanic skills? Mike is pretty humble, but he's a hell of a mechanic in addition to being a logger (which almost seems like a prerequisite). If you're not as comfortable with diesel repair (you may be, having been a fisherman) or hydraulics, you may want to spend some extra $ up front on something with less of a "fixer upper" aspect to it


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## bnmc98 (Jul 22, 2014)

good advice, might want to know how to weld as well, comes in handy when your wheel is laying in the road due to a broken axle housing and that kind of stuff.


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## rwoods (Jul 22, 2014)

*JD440C $12,000* http://swva.craigslist.org/grd/4569738636.html 
*JD640E $22,000* http://eastky.craigslist.org/hvo/4565432520.html *
450C Timberjack $18,000 * http://knoxville.craigslist.org/hvo/4535539531.html 
*JD440B $10,000* http://eastky.craigslist.org/hvo/4551984152.html *
Grapple for JD640 $1200* http://knoxville.craigslist.org/for/4491946184.html 

Every now and then there is a JD440 for $4500 - 5000. 

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2014)

My vote is for either 440 the b lookin just a wee bit better

the 640 is a large machine, the jack falls in the same boat.

don't discount the older deeres for under 5k, they may be old but they still pull wood, as long as they run good, Hel I paid 4500 for mine 2 years ago its moved plenty of wood since then


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 22, 2014)

skidders seem to be cheap out yer way northy.................hey ups me a nice 666 grapple when ya get a chance lol.


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## 1270d (Jul 22, 2014)

ive got a 648 deere grapple to sell ya. brand new engine, maybe 20hrs of use since.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2014)

C's list baby! although they dry up in summertime... though there is a clark 666 that keeps appearing for 7k, you worry about the shipping!


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## northmanlogging (Jul 22, 2014)

http://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/hvo/4574619450.html nice deere 540A

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/hvo/4544646330.html mountain logger

http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/hvo/4554772220.html cancar C8

http://olympic.craigslist.org/hvo/4579856221.html here's the deal of a lifetime...

http://abbotsford.en.craigslist.ca/hvo/4549564650.html TimberJack

http://bellingham.craigslist.org/hvo/4570897730.html Here ya go slayer, clark 666 runner

This is all just from the Seattle C's list, there are probably more if I search the east side... although some of them might be a little dark around the edges now..

Most of these adds have been up for a month or so.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 22, 2014)

I have bee very busy. Thanks guys! Its so weird how the local craigslist has nothing and everywhere else has so much listed. I am reviewing it all now.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 22, 2014)

Here is the info I found on my local craigslist. Not that I need what I am listing, but this is what I saw. You made a good point above about the mechanical issues. I am a hell of a mechanic and I have a welding trailer. The only problem is I have never worked on diesels. 

http://westky.craigslist.org/hvo/4579974024.html
http://westky.craigslist.org/hvo/4566307097.html
http://westky.craigslist.org/hvo/4527022893.html

That was me looking through a months worth of ads. 

Thank you all so much for going through everything and taking the time to do so. Looks like I may have to go to Seattle to buy a skidder. I haven't smoked weed in 20 years. Maybe I should go out there and relax myself and pull out the checkbook. Just kidding.........


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## matthew sparks (Jul 23, 2014)

http://bgky.craigslist.org/hvo/4515834765.html
http://bgky.craigslist.org/hvo/4547177858.html
http://nashville.craigslist.org/hvo/4552921234.html

Found a few more pieces of equipment here. Looks like the two skidders need work though....


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## Hans1 (Jul 23, 2014)

I went the route of TJ had a 225 good machine did have a lot of trouble but not more than can be expected of a 40 year old machine. Parts were easy to come by and not real expensive. I am not much of a mechanic but got by ok with this machine pay attention to the tires a new set could cost as much as some of the machines listed here. I used mine to select cut walnut good machine for that purpose.
Good luck with you choose


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## 056 kid (Jul 25, 2014)

So was it meth or just bad hygiene that took your chompers?


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## HuskStihl (Jul 25, 2014)

056 kid said:


> So was it meth or just bad hygiene that took your chompers?


I lost mine from meth _and _bad hygiene
Although in my defense, when you do as much meth as I do, hygiene becomes a challenge


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## matthew sparks (Jul 25, 2014)

When I was a kid it was bad hygiene. Everyone in my family has bad teeth. I will admit not taking care of them as an child but as an adult I did. My mom always took care of her teeth better than anyone I know and after partials and everything else she had to get upper dentures at 50.

Thats all over with now though. Now I am trying to get all my equipment and work. I have been out talking to mills and haven't updated all of you that have helped. I am still having trouble finding a skidder a lender will approve on a start up so I just went to my credit union yesterday and took out a loan against some property I have had paid off for about a year. It took me 10 years to pay it off and one day to put it right back in the banks hands.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 25, 2014)

Could you do it like Northman did? Start with just a tractor and buy stuff with the proceeds from the jobs you complete? Debt makes me personally very nervous


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## matthew sparks (Jul 25, 2014)

Northman was one of them telling me to get a skidder before I start I think. I already have a nice tractor. I couldn't find which page. I could be mistaken. I have the money waiting in my checking account now so I guess there is no turning back.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 25, 2014)

I think u'r right on his recs, but I seem to remember he started with an old ford tractor. I'm not trying to be a ****, and my discomfort with my personal debt should not be transferred onto you, but that money's not spent until you spend it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

Well there is a reason it is still in the bank. I may buy something tomorrow or I may proceed with logging until the right piece of equipment comes along. I hate debt, but with 4 kids I will be in debt forever anyways.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 26, 2014)

Husk yer correct I started with a tractor... and I should have had a skidder!

I ended up using the second mortgage on an already underwater loan to buy the skidder, but it was a Hel of a deal and I managed to pay it off in around 12 loads, thats working full time and logging on weekends. (about 2 months of working)

However, if I where logging full time imagine those 12 loads being doubled or tripled, 3-4 loads a week with enough wood in front of me easy enough. (if I wasn't so fat and tired I could probably get more wood...)

The trick is to put one load to you the other to your equipment, sometimes its just enough to move the equipment and keep beans on the table, payments are a horrible thing to have over your head, but it is doable. Many many folks have done it.

The messed up thing is I managed to get one payment away from paying off the second mortgage, completely... then bought a dump truck... among other things


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

Northman you sound like me with the loans. If skidders weren't so heavy I might be coming out there and paying you an inspection fee on the skidders you have in your area. Not only are they cheap there but you would know if it was junk or not when you saw it.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

Also if you just started with a tractor what else was in your arsonal? Did you have a logging truck, have them hauled, or use a trailer? My first big job is 3 miles form the mill. I have more to think about than a skidder and I don't know which direction I will go but would love to hear your thoughts.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 26, 2014)

Take a look at shipping them out there, could be worth the effort? The little skidders arn't too heavy like 8-14k ish... Flights are cheap

Equipment trader could probably get you some info on haulers.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

I was thinking about driving my gooseneck out but USHIP would be cheaper. What did you do about hauling logs when you started? DId you have a logging truck?


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## northmanlogging (Jul 26, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> Also if you just started with a tractor what else was in your arsonal? Did you have a logging truck, have them hauled, or use a trailer? My first big job is 3 miles form the mill. I have more to think about than a skidder and I don't know which direction I will go but would love to hear your thoughts.




Self loading log trucks, still use em. Have a list in fact...

Every now and then I drag one in on a car trailer or my equipment trailer. Loading them is fairly easy with a decent winch, parbuckle them over the side.

Otherwise my "arsenal" was at the time a basket case 046, a beat up tin hat, a log tape, a few cheap wedges, few hundred feet of 1/2" cable, couple of snatch blocks, the tractor, a 4x4 truck, and a peavy or two.

I used a cable gripper on chokers hooked to the tractors 3pt arch thing, that way I could choke a log and keep it short enough to still lift the end with the 3pt. Works better then it sounds, but tractors are slow... and its one log at a time, and climbing hills is just not going to happen, hence the mile of cable and piles of snatch blocks. 

The other trick is to climb a stout tree hang a snatch block and run yer cable through it, drag the cable out hook a couple of logs, attache other end to truck or tractor and haul ass... Scary but effective.

If you do plan on giving it a go with a tractor the peavy is going to save you hours of frustration, just being able to roll a log a little bit, to get around a stump say or to line them up in a pile...


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

I have used a peavy a lot. I built a log cabin last year. I skidded those logs with my tractor and I kept adding more weight to the front end. At first I was hauling 40 ft logs and couldn't move them. I was trying to take off slow so the tractor wouldn't flip. Finally I figured out I just had to give it hell. 

I don't want to start without a skidder. I also have no logging truck or CDL etc so I am a bit concerned about spending a lot on a skidder. A tree trimming company had a knuckleboom truck sit for sale for almost a year for 7500.00 I bet they didn't get over 5k for it. Too bad I wasn't buying then.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 26, 2014)

Lately I've been using my backhoe rigged with a set of tongs to load logs with, faster then winching them over the side... but be careful with them tongs. It won't lift much compared to a real loader, but when I need to load a short log on the trailer or stuff the dump truck full of fire wood logs it works good enough.

With a front loader and a set of forks, a guy can load logs fairly easily, just have to have enough ass to keep the back wheels on the ground, and a large enough landing to turn around without denting anything... Don't even think about doing this without a cage though, logs have a habit of rolling off the top of the bucket and then crushing everything in their path.

Some folks use a tracked loader for loading with, more stable then a wheeled tractor, and better traction.

The other option is to dig a loading hole (they have a clever name for this I just can't remember), drive the truck and trailer in to said hole and shove yer logs onto the trailer. Not exactly pretty or real good on the trailer but it is effective.

If you really want to use yer goose neck to haul logs, look into fabing up some bunks, the mill will appreciate it and so will the coppers, not to mention you can get a decent load on then, with just a flat bed your limited to how many rows you can safely get on there, with bunks your limited by weight.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 26, 2014)

As far as CDLs go, I taint got one either, keep your loads to a reasonable weight, check state regs, keep every thing tied down good, keep it clean and make sure all your lights work, no worries except for stopping... stopping is a ***** with lots of weight on...

Anything real heavy or long distance (more than 30 mi) I hire it out, plenty of folks willing to move equipment, just maybe not when you are ready to have it moved. Plenty of log trucks out there too, let them worry about tonnage, insurance, tires, diesel, maintanence. Owning a log truck for gyppo's like me is asking for bankruptcy, guy needs ten loads a month just to make insurance and tonnage, not to mention fuel and maintenance, more if he wants to make a profit at it and have any chance of paying it off.

A good friend told me once, you can be a logger or a truck driver, not both. Hel even the dump truck has me spending more time on pavement then I really want to think about.


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## matthew sparks (Jul 26, 2014)

I am 3 miles from the mill. I will probably just buy a skidder and use my gooseneck. I am assuming I can get away with just DOT numbers as long as I stay under the 26,000lbs. I will contact DOT via email this weekend so it is clearly understood and then if they don't answer I will call them. 

Thanks so much for your advice.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 27, 2014)

056 kid said:


> So was it meth or just bad hygiene that took your chompers?


hey kid, when you get a little older you may find out you didn't know as much as you think you do now.


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## HuskStihl (Jul 27, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> hey kid, when you get a little older you may find out you didn't know as much as you think you do now.


I'm _still _trying to figure that out


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## matthew sparks (Jul 27, 2014)

I responded honestly to him about that Treeslayer. I am here to learn about logs. I don't care if he judges me for having false teeth at 33.....Dentists judge people even though they know what a gum disease can do to your teeth in a short amount of time. 

Instead of meth. I have four kids I make brush their teeth no matter how much they complain instead of giving in like my parents. 

Now back to logging.


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## 1270d (Jul 27, 2014)

no matter how much you brush, if you have bad teeth, you have bad teeth. My kids have a low sugar/junk food diet, brush at least twice a day, use mouthwash, as well as fluoride pills. I'm still financing a new car for my dentist it seems.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 27, 2014)

don't worry about it Matt, kids ok but somtimes he acts like a punk and somtimes he talks like a guy twice his age........ya never know what you'll get.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 27, 2014)

1270d said:


> no matter how much you brush, if you have bad teeth, you have bad teeth. My kids have a low sugar/junk food diet, brush at least twice a day, use mouthwash, as well as fluoride pills. I'm still financing a new car for my dentist it seems.


good point, i had perfect teeth until i was 25..........i finely found a dentist that wasn't a smart azz and he told me after he and i talked alot about it, that my sinuses were probobly a big factor in what happened to them. i do not have gingevitus nor was i on meth or not brushing my teeth.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 27, 2014)

I blame landing on my face a lot, that and living on well water for 30+ years no floride... front teeth are mostly chipped, where their not crooked, molars have all been cracked... Managed to get most of them fixed, still missing a few though. 

Drinking is hard on your teeth too...

To bring this back to logging hows that skidder search going?


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## matthew sparks (Jul 27, 2014)

Well I have been busy dealing with the Credit Union all week and finally got that finished. I will be taking care of everything this week. I have to go to the property owner and get the contract done tomorrow and we will be marking trees.


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## 056 kid (Jul 28, 2014)

How do I talk like double my age? I do act like a callus ****, but most of what comes out of my fingers is accurate.. take it as you will I guess..


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 28, 2014)

Ted, just that sometimes you can talk very mature and some times you ah.....don't.............so double yer age is a complement.


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## northmanlogging (Jul 28, 2014)

056 kid said:


> How do I talk like double my age? I do act like a callus ****, but most of what comes out of my fingers is accurate.. take it as you will I guess..



Its accurate allright, just pretty blunt sometimes, hence the cranky old neighbor that steals frizbees... other times yer fun'n, hence the kid part.


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## rwoods (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm just glad the kid is still with us. I was beginning to think he had left us like many others. Ron


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## madhatte (Jul 28, 2014)

Ted's alright in my book.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jul 28, 2014)

i don't wish to be takin wrong so let me clarify.........i like Ted, i don't want him to go away. just think his comment was not thought out this time.


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## rwoods (Jul 28, 2014)

I don't always know when someone is jesting or serious around here so it keeps me on my toes. I hope young Matthew finds what he wants. Ron


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## matthew sparks (Aug 1, 2014)

I know you guys told me to get a winch skidder but this one makes me drool. I know I don't know what I'm doing.....


http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=9032731


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## Gologit (Aug 1, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I know you guys told me to get a winch skidder but this one makes me drool. I know I don't know what I'm doing.....
> 
> 
> http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=9032731




Don't get machinery just because you _like_ it. Get machinery that fits the job.


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## matthew sparks (Aug 1, 2014)

I know. I won't. It sure is pretty though. I like big toys even if that is not what I need.


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## Gologit (Aug 1, 2014)

I figured you knew that. Boys and their toys...sometimes you don't outgrow that. Ask me how I know.

Every year out here they have a huge logging show and all the latest equipment, and I mean _everything,_ is on display. I always go. And I always leave my checkbook at home. Boys and their toys...


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## matthew sparks (Aug 1, 2014)

I couldn't imagine already knowing a lot about the industry and going to a show like that and leaving without utilizing equipment that would do so much for you. I would be in trouble in your shoes.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 1, 2014)

depends what yer doing, that skidder be nice on a clearcut but drive ya nuts on a selection.


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## Gologit (Aug 1, 2014)

matthew sparks said:


> I couldn't imagine already knowing a lot about the industry and going to a show like that and leaving without utilizing equipment that would do so much for you. I would be in trouble in your shoes.



Think about it for a minute. It's _because_ I know so much about this industry that I'm able to walk away empty handed but with my bank balance still fairly intact. I know so much because I made enough bad decisions over fifty years of logging that the resultant lessons stayed with me like scars.
I've been through the "buy more equipment, bigger is better, and there's no problem that can't be solved by throwing more machinery and people at it" stage of my career development. Been there. Not going back, either.

It got to the point where I didn't even go to the woods very much. I didn't have time. I was too busy with employee meetings, phone calls, conferences with lawyers, meetings with vendors, depositions, meetings with suppliers, more phone calls, meetings with insurance people, meetings with bankers, meetings with my side rods, meetings with the shop people, meetings with DOT, meetings with the Highway Patrol, and more phone calls. This isn't even counting meeting with the occasional sleazoid lawyer or bail bondsman when one of my key people had a little too much fun on Saturday night and I needed him back in the woods Monday morning.

Did I mention that there was a lot of time spent in meetings.?

I finally decided that bigger definitely wasn't better and dropped back to a more comfortable and less stressful level. I really think I lived longer without the stress.

But...that new shovel that Cat came out with last year sure looked good!


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## HuskStihl (Aug 1, 2014)

rwoods said:


> I don't always know when someone is jesting or serious around here so it keeps me on my toes. Ron


I'm pretty much always serious. Very, very serious.


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## rwoods (Aug 1, 2014)

The contractor who build my house had previously become one of the largest siding contractors in the region - many supplier paid trips to exotic places, etc. - but found himself working harder with 30+ employees and making less money than he did by himself. He walked away from it and when back to building houses one at a time with no employees. Less stress and a better living.

Matt, my contractor taught me something that NML has been stressing to you about hauling your own logs. As I tried to save money by doing things myself or getting him to do with me, he would say to me "It is hard to beat a man at his own game." In other words, generally speaking a dry wall man can hang dry wall cheaper than me (and better), a plumber can plumb cheaper than me ... . I didn't agree with him at first nor did I like his advice but over time I realized that what he said was true.

Ron


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## rwoods (Aug 1, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> I'm pretty much always serious. Very, very serious.



Like when? Did your wife say "yes" when you first proposed or did you have to repeat the question? Ron


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## matthew sparks (Aug 1, 2014)

Finding someone to haul in this area is harder to find than I thought. I talked to a logging company that own two trucks and he said he wished he had 1-3 more trucks. This dry weather has every truck around hauling logs I guess.


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## rwoods (Aug 1, 2014)

Sometimes you just got to do what you got to do, but be careful making capital purchases for a short term need. Ron


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## HuskStihl (Aug 1, 2014)

rwoods said:


> Like when? Did your wife say "yes" when you first proposed or did you have to repeat the question? Ron


Pfft....As if............She proposed to me


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## rwoods (Aug 1, 2014)

Somehow I knew you were going to say that. Both of us should take a few days off and offer our "help". Say a two man skidder crew. We can take turns running over stuff and hooking to the stump instead of the stem. Ron


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 1, 2014)

you two guys would do just fine i bet.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 1, 2014)

rwoods said:


> Somehow I knew you were going to say that. Both of us should take a few days off and offer our "help". Say a two man skidder crew. We can take turns running over stuff and hooking to the stump instead of the stem. Ron


IDK, I get the feeling you are actually somewhat competent in the woods (no pun intended). I can assure you........I am not


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## Gologit (Aug 1, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> you two guys would do just fine i bet.



Yup. I wouldn't mind having those two around. Ron is level headed with a good sense of humor and he can run machinery.
Jon is a little different...okay, he's a _lot_ different... but not always in a bad way. I think he'd probably have fun. It would be nice to have a good medic available instead of the usual "keep this dressing clean and for Christ sake quit bleeding all over everything" approach that we usually see now.

And while I'm thinking about it and back on topic...Matt, have you had First Aid training? If not, get some. And keep First Aid kits in every rig. Look in them when you get them. Know what's in there and how to get your hands on it fast.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 1, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Pfft....As if............She proposed to me




Somehow I don't believe this... not one bit...

R+J, I'd work with both of ya, probably wouldn't get anything done on account of everyone laughing at me... but we could call it a good day when no one gets hurt, minus the stomach cramps...


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## HuskStihl (Aug 1, 2014)

Y'all are way too kind. I'd drop trees on everything, douse everybody in hydro, and run over saws with machinery. I have a track record...........


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 1, 2014)

well........none of us said we'd let you fall lol.............nah, y'all allright.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 1, 2014)

I guess I could let ya drag chokers... and bump knots, maybe... and the missus really could use a bath..., just don't go to messing with any fluids...

Speaking of hoes, Kandi (my hoe) could use a paint job and a good, Hard, Scubbing... and a swing cylinder packed... bring your own "tool" and trust me wear a rain coat...


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## HuskStihl (Aug 2, 2014)

Now _that's_ the kinda work I'd be qualified for!


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## Gologit (Aug 2, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Now _that's_ the kinda work I'd be qualified for!



But remember..."First, do no harm".


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## matthew sparks (Aug 2, 2014)

Gologit, I was a junior firefighter when I was a kid, but SCVA training wouldn't do much good in the woods. I think that is about all I remember. I know things happen fast. When I proceeded in all of this I told you about the drunk skidder driver, but the owner almost got me too. He was knocking down trees and I was topping. He got hung in a tree on a back cut. Well he had me grab the rope of a chainsaw and jumped on the skidder himself and went to free the pressure off the saw. He somehow flung a tree top and I jumped back. That little 2" limb looked like it was flying at me at 1000mph. I don't know if it was under the main tree or what but it scared me. That guy knew what he was doing and about got me. Things can happen fast and I do need first aid training I am sure. It doesn't take drunks or idiots for things to still go wrong.


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## rwoods (Aug 2, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> Somehow I don't believe this... not one bit...
> 
> R+J, I'd work with both of ya, probably wouldn't get anything done on account of everyone laughing at me... but we could call it a good day when no one gets hurt, minus the stomach cramps...



Better make us post bond first. Ron


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## northmanlogging (Aug 2, 2014)

nah carry yer own insurance... Bonds are overrated anyway...


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## Locust Cutter (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm thinking y'all need to come to Kansas and play with some large Osage Orange trees... They may not be 90' tall, but 3' diameter Hedge has some weight and will make a 390xp groan... Plus it would be fun to run a skidder and stuff... Just saying.


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## rwoods (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm scared of Kansas - isn't that where Dorothy was from? Ron


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## northmanlogging (Aug 2, 2014)

I cut a Dough fir that had 97 feet of good logs in it today... not to mention the top...

Been to Kansas, not sure I'd be willing to go back, even if someone where to pay me...


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## rwoods (Aug 2, 2014)

NML, you scared too? Or all those endless fields got you longing for the woods? Ron


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## Locust Cutter (Aug 3, 2014)

Yes, but it worked out well for her in the end... LOL I'm actually dropping a problem Locust for a neighbor tomorrow as it's dying out and is within striking distance of the house. It's not large, roughly 20-25" DBH, but it's around 48' high with a bad lean. Luckily beyond wedges, I can cheat with their tractor, snatch blocks and rope...


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## northmanlogging (Aug 3, 2014)

rwoods said:


> NML, you scared too? Or all those endless fields got you longing for the woods? Ron



Flat dead Flat... I need mountains... that and the billboards had me nervous, Oz museum, Corn Museum, Jebbus, rinse repeat for 400 miles.


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## Gologit (Aug 3, 2014)

Kansas? A friend of ours is a correctional officer at a prison there. He said that nobody ever bothers to escape because you can see them for three days after they leave.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 3, 2014)

Gologit said:


> Kansas? A friend of ours is a correctional officer at a prison there. He said that nobody ever bothers to escape because you can see them for three days after they leave.


"Don't bother trying to escape, the boredom extends for three weeks in every direction, you'd never make it"


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## cat10ken (Aug 6, 2014)

I don't know why you are worried about buying a skidder. Take my experience for example. I am a retired operating engineer and I needed something to keep me out of trouble, keep me in shape and keep me in firewood. I was watching two skidders on an internet auction, a 440 and 540 JD, the 440 was going for more than I was willing to spend, about $14,000 and the 540 was stuck at $8000 but hadn't met reserve. With only minutes left in the auction I told the wife I was going to put in a bid on the 540. I bid $8100 and met the reserve price and no one else bid so I was the winner! After taxes and buyer's fees and trucking I had about $9500 in it. It ran good, looked good, it had all new paint, two good tires but the others were usable. It needed a new mainline cable and some springs in the winch but all in all a pretty tight machine.

I used it for 4 years mostly dragging tops for my own use and some to sell and supplying wood for my brother-in-laws two outside boilers. I moved an Amish house with it, helped a farmer who slid a tractor and loaded chopper box off a hill road and dragged tops for an Amish work day. It was a very handy machine with lots of power and maneuverable in the woods and didn't need a super wide skid road.

I reluctantly sold it this spring for $14,500.

So what I am getting at is if you buy a decent machine and take care of it, you can always get your money back if things aren't working out for you.

Good luck.


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## blades (Aug 16, 2014)

Bought a decent LX485 about 6 years ago, about 200 in maintenace over the years, sold for what I paid for it last fall. I need to go bigger or smaller with bigger being the better option as a compliment to my MF 1230 tractor. Hard to find SS units that are not beat to death at a reasonable price. Used SS , Compact tractors w/mfwd, and 3/4 or 1 ton pickups w/4x4 all share the same common ailment- overpriced.


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## matthew sparks (Aug 16, 2014)

Sorry I haven't reported guys. I have been dealing with engineering school and also dealing with everyday bills. I will probably be out a little while due to some more health issues that aren't worth talking about since I made this post for advice on logging and not health. 

I really thank you all very much for all the advice and can't wait to get started as soon as time and health allows. You are really a good bunch of guys.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 16, 2014)

good luck to you Matthew


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## RandyMac (Aug 16, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> I cut a Dough fir that had 97 feet of good logs in it today... not to mention the top....



Was that a poppin' fresh fir?


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## northmanlogging (Aug 16, 2014)

RandyMac said:


> Was that a poppin' fresh fir?



It was older second growth, nice little stand on the edge of civilization... Got like 7 loads of Ceder and Fir out of that one... With enough to come on back in a couple of years when they LO needs a roof.

If memory serves it was only like 36" on the stump.


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