# Info on how to start a stump grinding buisness



## gink595

I have few questions on the stump grinding buisness. first i'll tell you my situation, I have been interested in doing this for some time now unfortunatly I've been plagued with two liver transplants this past year but am doing good now, anyhow i'm interested in knowing on how labor intensive this job can get, so far i've been able to work at a decent rate but fear i won't be able to tolerate as much as i used to. I have a Bobcat 773 not a high flow. I've heard that grinder attachments aren't worth much compared to the pull behinds, is this true? I have rented one and didn't really know wht to think seemed slow and beat the piss out of me but i had been out of the hospital only maybe 3 months after my second transplant.does ayone have experience with both. Also, I live in northeast Indiana and how does one price just by the inch or is there a charge for driving there also? How do you round up work? Do you advertise in the Yellow Pages or "stop and ask?" Any info will be helpful from people already experienced. thanks


----------



## Stumpgrinder

One trick I have used for creating jobs is to take landscaping flags and staple my Business card to them and stick them in the ground near stumps I see, that is if the people don't answer their door first.


----------



## BC WetCoast

gink595 said:


> I have few questions on the stump grinding buisness. first i'll tell you my situation, I have been interested in doing this for some time now unfortunatly I've been plagued with two liver transplants this past year but am doing good now, anyhow i'm interested in knowing on how labor intensive this job can get, so far i've been able to work at a decent rate but fear i won't be able to tolerate as much as i used to. I have a Bobcat 773 not a high flow. I've heard that grinder attachments aren't worth much compared to the pull behinds, is this true? I have rented one and didn't really know wht to think seemed slow and beat the piss out of me but i had been out of the hospital only maybe 3 months after my second transplant.does ayone have experience with both. Also, I live in northeast Indiana and how does one price just by the inch or is there a charge for driving there also? How do you round up work? Do you advertise in the Yellow Pages or "stop and ask?" Any info will be helpful from people already experienced. thanks



Glad to hear you are feeling better. In my opinion, a self-propelled unit is going to be more flexible for you than either the bobcat or towbehind. However, there is the cost. 

As for costing the jobs, I favour quoting each job, but this has been discussed ad infinitum on other threads. I think that per inch pricing screws you on the larger sized stumps and doesn't take access or travel into consideration. However, you still have to work in a market where you are not a price setter.

In terms of getting work, the first place I would look are small tree services who don't grind. Either sub to them or use them for referrals. Another would be landscaping companies. 

Advertising in the Yellow Pages really requires the proper timing as they are only published once a year and if you miss the deadline you are hooped. And it is expensive. I also know of one company who had their phone number printed wrong. It put them out of business because their work dried up.

I don't know your area, but in my neighbourhood, knocking on doors isn't going to get you anywhere. There has been so many media warnings about door to door scams, that people don't trust door to door anymore. May be different in your area. You may want to try a professional looking flyer with telephone number tags that you hang on community bulletin boards (ie grocery stores). 

Good luck.


You could also try slipping a flyer in the mail of houses that have stumps.


----------



## gink595

how do you go about quoting the whole job rather than going by the inch?what factors do you consider; stump diameter and the time you project it will take to grind plus traveling and fuel costs? what is your formula for quoting if you don't mind?


----------



## BC WetCoast

Factors I consider when I'm pricing a stump, but they all relate back to the time it takes to complete the job including clean up and travel.
- size, size is obvious, but also consider how high it has been left; are you going to have to recut it
- species - some species just take longer to grind because they are harder or have wierd grain patterns
- condition - fresh cut and wet; dry and case hardened; rotten and soft
- access - on flat front yard with no obstacles; in backyard through narrow gate that requires removal of dual tires; on top of small wall where you have to use ramps
- vehicle access - will you have to park halfway down the block and walk the machine for 10 minutes to get to the yard?; ease of parking
- depth of cut - 3"; 6" 10"
- surface roots
- rocks - has the owner used gravel as ground cover around the stump; is the area rocky
- clean up - let the chip stay where they fall; rake into a pile and blow the grass; pack all the excess mulch to the truck and dispose
- travel time - it costs time and money to travel
- underground wiring and irrigation - do you have to work around it?
- potential damage - do you have to put up plywood guards or is everything around protected from flying rocks - I can grind a 6" stump in the time it takes to set up plywood.
- do you expect payment as you complete the job or will you bill later - ie do you have to chase down the HO while you are there

Those are just some of the variables to consider when pricing a stump. Again it just comes down to time. You may want to price per inch for a while until you get a feel for how long some of these things take and whether they are sufficiently accounted for in the per inch price. 

The other problem I have with per inch pricing is the value goes down as the size increases. For example, say you charge $5/inch. A 10" stump will be $50, and a 20" stump will be $100. However, a 20" stump will have over 4x as much grinding. Why, because the volume increases by the square versus the diameter which increases linearly. The example, a 10" stump has a cross section of ~75 square inches, whereas the 20" stump has a cross section of ~300 square inches (formula pi r^2), and that's not including butt swell/buttress roots etc.

When we price a stump, there are usually a line item - price to grind to a specified depth, leave the mulch: and a second line item - price to haul mulch. I guess it is done more on feel than a strict formula and you are going to round to a half or full hour anyway.

You also have to decide whether to charge a minimum price. It costs a certain amount of money just to show up at the driveway, whether you grind a 3" stump or 100" stump. And you need to determine what rate you use in both your estimating and your Time and Material jobs. Finally, are you going to have a PITA premium for those "special" customers.

You may find in your area that people don't care about you doing any clean up, but >50% of the time we have to haul the mulch. That's part of your marketing.

Biggest stump I've ground was a broadleaf maple cluster (6 stems) and measured 9' across with pockets of rot. Took me 5-6 hours without cleanup, although I had to do a lot of digging to move mulch out of the way. It was on a golf course and they had summer students to move the mulch.


----------



## gink595

Yes, this is what I am looking for! This has been very informative. There are a lot more factors to consider than some of the ones i had thought of. I had ground one stump so far, for a buddy of course. I had the Bobcat and he had the idea! The stump i ground: i had to recut it as close to the ground as possible. I bet it was 4' in dia. with a lot of exposed roots. It took me around 8 hours to grind, clean up, and regrade the yard where the stump was at. not to mention the cutting and moving the huge sectioned trunks to the burn pile. All of this for free. At least he rented the stump grinder attachment and i got to get my feet wet a little.
When I ground, i had a massive pile of chips that were really a pain in the butt. i could never tell where the stump was at times. Do you get into more than just grinding, I guess what I'm asking is: are you expected to level the ground back to grade to match the rest of the proximity. Also i did read where you said you just rake the chips into a pile, do you charge extra to haul away or is that something HO is responsible for. I'm just trying to get a feel for what is expected from a customer aspect and what is charged extra for. What about putting top soil back in, is that worth pissing with.
Is the primary responsibilty to just grind the stump and everything after that is a charged item or should one qoute the whole deal at once, grind, cleanup, top soil and back grade level? What do you think or do?
Thanks for all the help so far I'm sure i will have alot more questions as the thought processes sink in. frank


----------



## BC WetCoast

gink595 said:


> Yes, this is what I am looking for! This has been very informative. There are a lot more factors to consider than some of the ones i had thought of. I had ground one stump so far, for a buddy of course. I had the Bobcat and he had the idea! The stump i ground: i had to recut it as close to the ground as possible. I bet it was 4' in dia. with a lot of exposed roots. It took me around 8 hours to grind, clean up, and regrade the yard where the stump was at. not to mention the cutting and moving the huge sectioned trunks to the burn pile. All of this for free. At least he rented the stump grinder attachment and i got to get my feet wet a little.
> When I ground, i had a massive pile of chips that were really a pain in the butt. i could never tell where the stump was at times. Do you get into more than just grinding, I guess what I'm asking is: are you expected to level the ground back to grade to match the rest of the proximity. Also i did read where you said you just rake the chips into a pile, do you charge extra to haul away or is that something HO is responsible for. I'm just trying to get a feel for what is expected from a customer aspect and what is charged extra for. What about putting top soil back in, is that worth pissing with.
> Is the primary responsibilty to just grind the stump and everything after that is a charged item or should one qoute the whole deal at once, grind, cleanup, top soil and back grade level? What do you think or do?
> Thanks for all the help so far I'm sure i will have alot more questions as the thought processes sink in. frank



If you read this site, there are several threads on stump grinding. There seems to be a gamut of ways people deal with mulch. It ranges from let the chips lay where they land, don't worry about the hole, grind the stump and you're gone through to total mulch removal and topsoil and seed. So what I'm trying to say is, there is no standard. I think it depends on how you sell the job. If the customer is only interested in the cheapest price then you sell with minimal cleanup. As I said, you may want to itemize your quote, ie price 1, leave mulch, rake and blow yard; price 2 remove mulch, rake and blow yard, price 3 grind stump, no raking, no cleanup and let the customer decide.

8 hours on a 4' stump is a lot, but you can probably see why I dislike quoting by the inch. A couple of tricks you may want to use the next time you have a stump like this. Grind in from one side to square off that side, then go to the other side and square off that side. Now you have a roughly rectangular shape.. Now start at one end and grind through the rectangle. When the mulch builds up, spend a few minutes with a pitchfork and clear it out a bit. If you are lucky to have a helper, they can do this.

If you have a high stump that is dirty around the sides and will rock your saw chain, you can grind the edges to give you clean stump sides, then saw it lower. However, for the most part, I find it is almost faster just to grind rather than saw. Everytime I go to saw, I invariably rock my saw and then waste time filing.

Another thing I just thought of. If you rent the grinder again, check the teeth. The edges need to be sharp. Even if they are just rounded a bit will give a significant drop in performance. And rental units are notorious for having dull teeth.

With the Bobcat and bucket, it would be easy to handle mulch. At least easier and a pitchfork, grainscoop, wheelbarrow and garbage can.

There are people on this board with way more experience than me. However, grinding gives me lots of time to think, and I spend a lot of time thinking how to make the job easier within the parameters I'm given.


----------



## gink595

yes mulching, i have read now on mulching for hours and see what a great debate people have on what to do with it. It seems to me that would be best to let the customer dictate what he wants and then charge accordingly, rather than just assuming clean-up, seems more profitable? Great tip on grinding edges first rather than going dirt diving and being pissed when you file in hand! I wonder how many times it would have taken me to figure out, none now thanks! 
Actually, the stump only took about four hours, the rest I mentioned took the other half. I did waste alot of time dropping attachments from grinder to bucket to remove mulch. But that sure seems better than the alternative that you'd mentioned, though it didn't at the time. I hate climbing in and out for that. If you ever invest in a skidsteer get the option with the power attach, just poke a button and unhook. Unless you have hydraulics to unhook than your no better off! I'm believeing you are correct in looking into the self propelled units, I had been searching posts for the skidsteer types and i can now see the advantages of having a SP unit. Now I have to go and research those after i finally came to decisions on a skid grinder. Oh well better to find out now...
Also I have been looking for sample contracts to view, would you have anything that I could look at or know where I might be able to get a clearer understanding on what a good draft is. thanks friend for all your ideas and time this has been a very good beginner lesson. Frank


----------



## marine1

*information*

I do have some information I can share since we sould allot alike, I am recovering from a heart condition. Its a great business to be in but you can make mistakes in buying equipment and advertising. Here is my take on your questions...
First ask your doctor, I have found that being outside and excercise works for me. However, I know not to over do it and when to and not to take on that difficult job. I dropped 30 lbs and have never felt better.

I use a Rayco 35 HP machine that I bought new and can do any job with it. The pull behind will limit your access to backyards and those hard to get to areas. Spend the 17K and the machine will be yours and not some used worn out piece of junk.

I price on what the market will pay. I never use inches but I use the same prices based on the job difficulty. I never work too cheap and generally make $150 per hour average. I do an excellent job and always check with the customer and clean up. Referralls are important. I plan on doing 3 to 5 jobs a day and thats good $$$ no credit cards.

Here is the most important part, look professional. Mark your truck with logo and give free estimates. I do not go door to door, it makes you look desperate. I use ths Yellow Pages, because I retired from there, and it pays off. Ask for a tracking number. I also use a shopper "Everybody's Business" that I buy in specific zip codes. Its cheap and I always justify it with average customer worth ($150.) Try several avenues and always ask your customer where they found you. Hook up with a good tree service and trade refferalls. The main problem with smakk businesses is they are afraid to spend money to make money. Don't be afraid its pays dividends after awhile.

Most important is to have fun and always always be professional and on time. I do 99% of my work the same day and always answer my cell phone or return calls within 1 hours after they leave a message

Hope this helps...............Marine1


----------



## gink595

marine1 said:


> I do have some information I can share since we sould allot alike, I am recovering from a heart condition. Its a great business to be in but you can make mistakes in buying equipment and advertising. Here is my take on your questions...
> First ask your doctor, I have found that being outside and excercise works for me. However, I know not to over do it and when to and not to take on that difficult job. I dropped 30 lbs and have never felt better.
> 
> I use a Rayco 35 HP machine that I bought new and can do any job with it. The pull behind will limit your access to backyards and those hard to get to areas. Spend the 17K and the machine will be yours and not some used worn out piece of junk.
> 
> I price on what the market will pay. I never use inches but I use the same prices based on the job difficulty. I never work too cheap and generally make $150 per hour average. I do an excellent job and always check with the customer and clean up. Referralls are important. I plan on doing 3 to 5 jobs a day and thats good $$$ no credit cards.
> 
> Here is the most important part, look professional. Mark your truck with logo and give free estimates. I do not go door to door, it makes you look desperate. I use ths Yellow Pages, because I retired from there, and it pays off. Ask for a tracking number. I also use a shopper "Everybody's Business" that I buy in specific zip codes. Its cheap and I always justify it with average customer worth ($150.) Try several avenues and always ask your customer where they found you. Hook up with a good tree service and trade refferalls. The main problem with smakk businesses is they are afraid to spend money to make money. Don't be afraid its pays dividends after awhile.
> 
> Most important is to have fun and always always be professional and on time. I do 99% of my work the same day and always answer my cell phone or return calls within 1 hours after they leave a message
> 
> Hope this helps...............Marine1



I hope that you are feeling better from your heart condition, I understand the weight loss, I went from 205 to 120 after my second transplant, now I'm starting to finally get some weight back about 150 now. What exactly is the tracking number and Everybodys Buisness? I'm not familiar with the advertisment world yet but sounds like i need to! I will have to look up the machine you have but I take it that is a walk behind or self propelled? So you say that going used would not be a wise idea? I will definately look in to it thanks for your suggestions. Frank


----------



## marine1

*Stump Grinding*

Thanks for the reply. First the number in the Yellow Pages I spoke of is what they call an intelligent number. A number provided by the phone company that is used just in your ad in the Yellow Pages. When dialed by a customer it is call forwarded to your exisitng number for you to answer, it is seamless to the customer. The Yellow Page people have the softare that will count those calls, tell you when, where, who, zip code, how many rings until answered if answered, duration of call and all sorts of demographics so you can see how well your ad is working. All telcom Yellow Page companys have this available, in most case for one year and at no cost. If pressed they should bend over backwards to get your business, their main drive is generating new business. As far as a machine the Rayco super I use is self propelled and is 35 HP. I find anything less than that is too under powered and you will wish you spent the extra money and got a 35HP. I don't know what part of the country your in but if you would like I can provide a good vendor and also send you some photos of my set up. Just ask............The Beaver


----------



## gink595

marine1 said:


> Thanks for the reply. First the number in the Yellow Pages I spoke of is what they call an intelligent number. A number provided by the phone company that is used just in your ad in the Yellow Pages. When dialed by a customer it is call forwarded to your exisitng number for you to answer, it is seamless to the customer. The Yellow Page people have the softare that will count those calls, tell you when, where, who, zip code, how many rings until answered if answered, duration of call and all sorts of demographics so you can see how well your ad is working. All telcom Yellow Page companys have this available, in most case for one year and at no cost. If pressed they should bend over backwards to get your business, their main drive is generating new business. As far as a machine the Rayco super I use is self propelled and is 35 HP. I find anything less than that is too under powered and you will wish you spent the extra money and got a 35HP. I don't know what part of the country your in but if you would like I can provide a good vendor and also send you some photos of my set up. Just ask............The Beaver




That is very insiteful, I will definatley keep that piece of advice in mind. I live near Ft. Wayne, Indiana. For sure, I'd like to see your setup! It would be helpful to see what works for others in the industry. How long have you been doing this for a living, did it take off fairly easily or is it a struggling buisness, I'm sure it varies from different regions but just curious to see. I'm still trying to get a feel for if this is even profitable to depend on. Thanks for your time. Frank


----------



## marine1

*business startup*

Frank in answer to your question, I have been doing this for about a year. I retired from AT&T a couple of years ago. I did some consulting work but it was the same old stuff I retired from so I quit that and opened up a stump removal business. I have a retiree friend that has one and he loves it and I went to work on a business plan after shadowing him for a couple of days. So far so good and I work the business like any other with profit in mind. I am not the cheapest and I don't want to be but with my sales experience I get almost 100 of the jobs that I am called on. I approach the business in a professional manner, logos on shirts, truck and tralier etc. I always return phone calls within 1 hour and keep my cell with me all the time, getting in front of the customer fast is very important. I will work 7 days a week except for Sunday morning and consider myself like a fireman, on call. Of course being retired helps but I in no way consider this a part time job, I'm in it to earn a living and control my time. As far as the business taking off? I launched this business when I had another job and tried to do both at the same time and if your a fireman you can (one day on one off) but I enjoyed it so much I decided to do it full time. The only advice I can give you with your startup is make sure you advertisng is in place before you jump in there. Going door to door in my opinion is a waste of time, I track every call and it produced 1% return so I stopped doing it. However, if I am in a neighbor hood and see a potential job I'll ring the doorbell and give an estimate. Also hook up with a good tree servive, concrete contractor, landscape contractor and fence guy for potential jobs. The difference between you and I is that I live in an area that is warm almost year round. In your case you have to deal with the winter and I cannot advise you on that. I would imagine if you did only stump removal you would have to really work like hell those good months and coast in the winter and sit by the fire or do something else for a living. But aren't all jobs seasonal in someway or the other?


----------



## marine1

*To Pav*

Everything is slow right now even in Florida. I have spoken to landscape guys, tree guys and so on and they all say the same thing. It is seasonal but I still say advertising is the key and you have to put your name out there in creative/directional as well as permanent advertising. When I say creative/directional thats truck logos, yard signs etc where people see you logos and tagline if you have one. By permanent thats means something won't throw away and refer to often when needed ie Yellow Pages, Web site etc. I have not tried the web sites as yet but I do keep a good mix of the other stuff. I also, as I mentioned, did not have alot of luck going door to door or even doing door hangings when I saw a stump in the yard. As far as the economy, I feel when the weather warms up and people get back out into the yard the calls will increase. In Florida I have noticed the hotter the better................


----------



## treedoc1

*Here are the different options that I offer*

1. Grind down the stump (# of " ) below grade. The stump hole will be backfilled with the stump chips and a mound would be left on site unless otherwise stated on the work order.

2. Grind down (# of) prominent surface roots 4”- 6” below grade

3. Remove excess grindings.

4. Remove excess stump grindings, backfill with top soil and install new sod.

5. Remove excess stump grindings, backfill with top soil, cover with grass seed and straw.

I must average $150 / hr to be profitable and that includes travel time to and from the job site. I find that with traffic and associated delays, a basic stump is $375. Remember that in most places, stump grinding is an extra service to the removal, requires special equipment, and should be priced as such.

Wheelbarrowing out grindings from a back yard, wheelbarrowing in topsoil (remember you had to pick it up, load it and transport it), seeding or sod will add at least another hour ($150) to the job, if not more. I have found that bagged topsoil is most efficient. Why? How are you going to load the grindings into a truck before you unload the loose topsoil?

Some things to think about as you set up your business. Good Luck


----------



## marine1

Here in Florida we grind and go. However, I do rake and cleanup after myself. This allows me to average $150 per job and I do most jobs in 45 minutes or less. If I find a really difficult job that would take me all day I generally price it high so it makes it worth my time. Personally I like the small jobs where I can be in and out in under an hour..........


----------

