# Chat over Beer w/ Loggers, Crescent City, CA - Amusing



## M.D. Vaden (Aug 24, 2014)

Couple weeks ago, I was in Nor Cal for photography in the redwoods, and went to the lounge of a Mexican food place in Crescent City at night for a beer. A man next to me, from WA, began conversation and we chatted about forests. Later that night I learned he was like a retired helicopter pilot.

Early on, a couple of younger guys near us overheard and chimed in. They apparently make a living doing logging. And had a lot to say about how good logging practices are on the west coast. Particularly noting Oregon.

Although the helo pilot did not agree with all they said, I thought it was commendable how completely he let them have their say. It was interesting to listen to young loggers present a point of view from what was evidently a logging only life-experience.

It was in stark contrast to 4 Danish loggers I met in the past couple of months, who were older, more experienced, and from another logging or forest management part of the world.

Personally, I've got a place for logging and no logging. Just depends where, how, and how much. But I like to hear-out everybody who does the work just to see what they think, how long they've done it, what they know, what they don't know, and what their ideas are.

One reason I put "amusing" in the thread title ... it's not like the loggers were to be laughed at. It's how they and the pilot interacted.


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## Brush Ape (Aug 24, 2014)

M.D. Vaden said:


> It was in stark contrast to 4 Danish loggers I met in the past couple of months, who were older, more experienced, and from another logging or forest management part of the world.



The main appreciable difference between logging there and doing it here is more of the forest management is done with satellites and computer programs which enhances the efficiency. Trimming the fat old Blagojevich used to say. lol


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## AKDoug (Aug 24, 2014)

I live in an aviation heavy community. You run into all types when it comes to pilots. Some are just plain ass arrogant. They see stuff from the air and think it's ugly that you really can't see from the ground. Just based on this emotion, they think its "bad". Some are smart enough to understand how mankind and nature interact and realize that human interaction is not all bad. The one thing all pilots have in common is that they see stuff from a different physical perspective than us ground pounders see it. 

Most helicopter pilots I interact with are from the industrial side of things; remote construction, mining and oil exploration. They are the heavy equipment operators of the pilot world and see things from a natural resources development viewpoint. Contrast that with a helicopter tour pilot and you'll get a completely different viewpoint.


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## madhatte (Aug 25, 2014)

Brush Ape said:


> more of the forest management is done with satellites and computer programs which enhances the efficiency.



There's only so much that can be done remotely, even with the best software and imagery available, and most of that is related to planning and inventory. Any forestry agency still needs boots on the ground to verify that things are as they believe they are. Boundaries still need marked, trees need measured, streams need buffered, etc. We dirt foresters may be an endangered species, but we're not extinct yet.


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## Brush Ape (Aug 25, 2014)

Bring beer.


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## madhatte (Aug 25, 2014)

Fair enough. I know how things work.


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## slowp (Aug 25, 2014)

madhatte said:


> There's only so much that can be done remotely, even with the best software and imagery available, and most of that is related to planning and inventory. Any forestry agency still needs boots on the ground to verify that things are as they believe they are. Boundaries still need marked, trees need measured, streams need buffered, etc. We dirt foresters may be an endangered species, but we're not extinct yet.


 
Yes. An example would be streams that show up on GPS layers, but that do not exist on the ground.
I've also run across streams inside units, that were missed. It works both ways.

One enviro group showed a picture of a deforested area to raise money. It was taken from the air in the middle of the winter. Underneath that layer of deep snow were healthy trees that were planted and growing well. I knew the area.


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## madhatte (Aug 25, 2014)

slowp said:


> Yes. An example would be streams that show up on GPS layers, but that do not exist on the ground.
> I've also run across streams inside units, that were missed. It works both ways.



Zackly. That's a big part of my job. Streams, wetlands, critters, homesteads, military resources, etc. Gotta make the map agree with the ground.


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## Samlock (Aug 25, 2014)

Forestry drones, Nathan. Get prepared.


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## madhatte (Aug 25, 2014)

Samlock said:


> Forestry drones, Nathan. Get prepared.



Give me a dozen and I'll figure out how to use 'em for LiDAR reconnaissance!


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## HuskStihl (Aug 25, 2014)

madhatte said:


> We dirt foresters may be an endangered species, but *we're not extinct yet*.


Definitely true. Until the Nate-Bot3000 comes online, that is (picture a WallE with coffee, snuff and donettos)


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## Gologit (Aug 25, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Definitely true. Until the Nate-Bot3000 comes online, that is (picture a WallE with coffee, snuff and donettos)



Snuff? SNOOSE! Sheesh, Texans.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 25, 2014)

Gologit said:


> Snuff? SNOOSE! Sheesh, Texans.


TruDat. I actually have no idea what donetto's even are.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 25, 2014)

go to the Kum + Go/7-11 find the hostess rack... look for a bag full of chocolaty goodness... unless your all about White Powder...


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## Gologit (Aug 25, 2014)

They're one of the basic logger food groups, along with caffeine and nicotine.

They're actually Donettes but with the usual Left Coast poetic license and free spirited pronunciation they're always referred to as Donettos.

They're made out of sugar and starch and pseudo chocolate and a whole list of chemical ingredients that I have trouble pronouncing. They have an active shelf life roughly the same as nuclear waste. Their nutritional value is about the same as cardboard but they're very filling. They're best when combined with 7-11 coffee, Baby Ruth candy bars, and any kind of beef jerky.
They're a very handy size for eating whole and washing down with a slurp of coffee. One Donetto, one slurp, drive the crummy one handed at high speed in the dark sliding sideways around the switchbacks and tune the radio with your elbow.
One of our crews showed up late one morning. Their excuse was that the usual 7-11 was out of Donettos and they had to run clear across town to stock up. We understood.


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## slowp (Aug 25, 2014)

Ya beat me to it. The boxes are preferred, I believe. They fit better on the dash of crummies and log trucks. I hitched a ride out in a log truck once. There was a box of chocolate covered ones on the dash. The driver never offered any. Oh well...he was saving me from spending a long, cold night in a stuck in the snow pickup. It was the day when all radios were in the shop to get checked.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 25, 2014)

Those look...................................Awesome!


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## madhatte (Aug 25, 2014)

Snoose is forester-optional... coffee and "Donettos"? Not so much. I prefer the chocolate ones, and black coffee, in case any of you ever need to know that.

EDIT: dammit, you got me misspellin' things


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## Gologit (Aug 25, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> Those look...................................Awesome!




Good choice of words.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 26, 2014)

I like my sugar with coffee and cream...

yum... baby ruth...


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## slowp (Aug 26, 2014)

I have heard that my bribery cookies are missed-- Such an easy way to get good results in the woods.


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

slowp said:


> I have heard that my bribery cookies are missed-- Such an easy way to get good results in the woods.



Our Foresters never brought us cookies. We didn't expect any. We were just happy if the Foresters had good news for us. Usually they didn't. That's probably one of the disadvantages to working private ground. 
The Foresters got paid by the same people we did and cookie bribes were definitely not on their list.
They used to run parts for us occasionally or give somebody a ride out and they always complained bitterly about it. Running errands for the woods crew probably cut into their nap time or their trout fishing. We were always properly sympathetic and let them know how much we appreciated their help. They'd bring us flagging and paint and sometimes the latest mill specs. But cookies? Never happened.


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## madhatte (Aug 26, 2014)

I can't say I've ever had the people skills to anticipate the proper moment for bribery cookies, but I try really hard to make sure everybody has up-to-date maps. That's not at all easy.


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## slowp (Aug 26, 2014)

madhatte said:


> I can't say I've ever had the people skills to anticipate the proper moment for bribery cookies, but I try really hard to make sure everybody has up-to-date maps. That's not at all easy.


 
Bribery and reward. If it is a decent crew to begin with, you can make a statement like--"Hmmmm. Is the crew having a bad day? I noticed more trees than usual getting skinned up." Then, when things improve as they usually do in a big way, cookies are delivered. That seemed to keep the good work going except for tweaker crews. Tweakers just want to get paid. Tweakers don't care about damage. Tweakers suck.

Also, be careful who cookies are given to. One gypo logger never shared them with his crew. He kept them for himself.


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## madhatte (Aug 26, 2014)

Cookie Scrooges? Say it ain't so!


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

slowp said:


> One gypo logger never shared them with his crew. He kept them for himself.



Hey now, there has to be _some_ reward for being the boss.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 26, 2014)

naw Bob, the boss [i hate that title] is just a mean ol sob.........you know that lol.

i never thought of dad that way, just that he had alot to think about...........today i'm just mean.........ah well, i guess i shouldn't say a word if they are hard on leave trees or the equipment.


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> naw Bob, the boss [i hate that title] is just a mean ol sob.........you know that lol.
> 
> i never thought of dad that way, just that he had alot to think about...........today i'm just mean.........ah well, i guess i shouldn't say a word if they are hard on leave trees or the equipment.



I never liked the title either and sometimes I didn't like the job very much. See how many of these you can relate to.
The boss is the one guy that wants to stay when everyone else is crying to go home on a bad weather day. His pickup is usually the dirtiest. The boss is the guy that gets there early and leaves late. Sometimes, if the machinery needs attention, he doesn't leave at all. The boss is the one that lays awake at night figuring costs, plotting skid roads and landings, planning how many trucks to order, thinking of new ways to sweet talk the banker, and trying to make sure that nothing gets forgotten. If he figured his net income against the hours he puts in the boss would be the guy that's making less money than the loader operator. The boss is the person who everybody with a problem comes to, even if he can't do anything about it. If he could just find a way to be in six places at once, have a few more hours of daylight, a bigger line of credit, a few more weeks of good weather, and the ability to talk on two phones and the company radio all at the same time life would be a little easier. A little.
The mill blames the boss for mis-measured logs. The Forester blames the boss for being out of compliance with the THP even though some of the requirements are ambiguous or just downright contradictory. The Fish and Game people blame the boss for stream siltation The truck drivers blame the boss if the haul road is rough. The truck owners blame the boss if the rate is too low. The loader operator wants a new shovel, the skidding crew thinks tires are indestructible, the fuel truck driver is lost again and the fallers want more money. The boss listens, councils, suggests alternatives, explains things and then tries his best to find the fuel truck driver who, since he doesn't know quite where he is, is having trouble finding out where he's supposed to be. The rest of the problems can wait. The conversation on the company radio with the wandering fuel truck driver would make a good comedy routine...if the boss had any sense of humor left.
The boss is the guy who makes it a rule not to hire anybody he doesn't know or who doesn't have a decent recommendation from somebody he knows and trusts. The boss is the guy that gets a bad employee occasionally despite his care. You know the kind...they show up late almost every day and usually not all on the Monday after payday. By Thursday they're hinting that they need an advance on next week's wages and get sulky when you point out that they're still behind from the last advance they got and there won't be any more advances until things balance out. They're the kind that run the skidder out of fuel, again, and blame it on the gauge. They move slowly when they move at all and have no problem leaving work for the other guys to do. The boss notices these things. If the crew thinks the boss doesn't notice they'll make sure to tell him. Repeatedly. The boss is the guy that almost always decides to give the new guy a decent chance to make it and almost always lives to regret it. This leads to a conversation between the boss and the side rod about whether to keep the guy...and hope he gets better before the rest of the crew mutinies or beats him senseless
...or to send him to town and work short handed until a replacement can be found. The boss has to tell the guy that he's all done. Sometimes this goes well. Other times it doesn't.
Everybody on the crew is firmly convinced that they could do a better job than the boss. Some of them probably could but they're the older and wiser hands who have been where he is and know what it takes. They're more inclined to suggest rather than just grumble and the boss knows the difference and appreciates the gesture.
The boss thinks that if it wouldn't him take a month to untangle all the mistakes it might be fun to appoint some of the critics as "boss of the week" and take off for some trout fishing with the Forester. And the fuel truck driver, too...if they ever find him. He's earned a break.


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 26, 2014)

He gets to travel and take lots of time off though


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 26, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> He gets to travel and take lots of time off though


huh...when?

well Bob ya pretty much hit it on the head.......of course i have a much smaller operation........i am the lost fuel man lol.

the bad thing for me is my only employees are dad and my son.........guess wich one always shows up on time and ready for what ever he can do?


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## HuskStihl (Aug 26, 2014)

It could be worse. My employees are women (and not real women like Ms.P, more like drama-laden teenagers)


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> He gets to travel and take lots of time off though


 You got the _travel_ part right


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## northmanlogging (Aug 26, 2014)

Wait a minute I'm always late... but I never miss work... I've been lost more this year then I care to think about, and I'm the one knocking holes in the skidder tires...

Who's my Boss?


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> huh...when?
> 
> well Bob ya pretty much hit it on the head.......of course i have a much smaller operation........i am the lost fuel man lol.
> 
> the bad thing for me is my only employees are dad and my son.........guess wich one always shows up on time and ready for what ever he can do?




LOL..the story of the lost fuel truck driver was a real one. He was a good kid and tried real hard but he was a little slow on the draw.
He called me on the company radio and said "I can't find you guys and I think I'm lost. You guys must have moved the landing and I can't find it". He was right, we'd moved. We'd moved about a half mile on down the main haul road that we'd been inching our way along all summer. He couldn't remember if he was on the right haul road 'cause "everything looked different with all the trees cut down". Okay, I asked him if he knew where he was. He didn't. I asked him for road numbers. He couldn't remember any. He was aware that he was on a dirt road, though. That gave me hope. I asked him for landmarks...creeks, bridges, old buildings, new cuts, gravel dumps, painted trees, junk cars, mile markers, anything...and all he could remember was crossing a creek on a bridge with a weight limit on it. I didn't ask what the weight limit was. He asked again how to find us and I had to give him the bad news..."if I don't know where you are I can't tell you where to go". Maybe I didn't explain that right 'cause he had trouble grasping the concept. I explained it to him about five different ways and I guess it finally sunk in. I asked him if there was other traffic on the road and he said that every once in awhile an empty logging truck would go by him . Okay, that fit in with the restricted bridge. The trucks were going in one way empty and coming out another way loaded and hauling for another outfit. I didn't want him trying his luck with the restricted bridge again so I had him follow an empty to the landing, find a loaded truck, explain the situation, and follow the load out to the highway. It put him way the hell and gone away from us but I didn't want any more wandering experiments. I had a very rough idea of where he was but I still didn't know exactly.
When he hit the highway he was about 50 miles from me...in a straight line...and 100 miles by road. I'm still not real sure how he did that and what roads he traveled before the log trucks guided him out but he sure saw the country that afternoon. I know most of the goat trails in that country and I still can't figure out how he got from A to B. Magic maybe. I dunno.
I had him go back to the yard and I met him there early the next morning and had him follow me to the landing. After he unloaded I had him wait and follow one of our loaded trucks out. That was the pattern for the rest of the season.
Like I said, he was a good kid and he tried real hard. He just wasn't much for quick thought and common sense.
I heard later that he went back to college and became a Forester.


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## Gologit (Aug 26, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> Wait a minute I'm always late... but I never miss work... I've been lost more this year then I care to think about, and I'm the one knocking holes in the skidder tires...
> 
> Who's my Boss?


 YOU are, you lucky devil. Just don't be in a hurry to fire yourself. Nothing will get done.

And remember what Finley Hayes said about being lost? "You're not really lost until you don't get there at all. Otherwise you're just geographically challenged".


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## madhatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Waited a long time for that punchline. You delivered, for sure!


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## Gologit (Aug 27, 2014)

madhatte said:


> Waited a long time for that punchline. You delivered, for sure!



Sometimes there isn't any punch line. Sometimes it's just everyone who knows the business, looking at each other and nodding, and saying "yup, another day in the woods".


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## RandyMac (Aug 27, 2014)

There are some woods east of town that need thinned.


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## slowp (Aug 27, 2014)

My woods need to be thinned except it is mostly limblocked bastard growth and would be a major pain to do unless a much hated feller buncher was used.


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## Gologit (Aug 27, 2014)

RandyMac said:


> There are some woods east of town that need thinned.



Well...you got the saws. You got the experience. Go get it!.


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## RandyMac (Aug 27, 2014)

Gologit said:


> Well...you got the saws. You got the experience. Go get it!.



Need a good equipment operator for layouts, draggin' logs off and such....Bob.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 27, 2014)

you guys ought to team up


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## RandyMac (Aug 27, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> you guys ought to team up



Yup, between the two of us, we might get a tree a day done.


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## treeslayer2003 (Aug 27, 2014)

lol, oh i think y'all would do better than that........besides its all about quality work, not speed.


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## Eccentric (Aug 27, 2014)

You also need a second sawyer to carry gear, beat wedges, and get yelled at. Just say when...


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## madhatte (Aug 27, 2014)

A tree a day in big redwood is not an insubstantial volume. Lemme know if you need any blue paint slung.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 27, 2014)

If y'all need any snarky sarcasm, I'd be happy to help


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## RandyMac (Aug 27, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> If y'all need any snarky sarcasm, I'd be happy to help



You wants beaten with a whippy Redwood limb?


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## HuskStihl (Aug 27, 2014)

RandyMac said:


> You wants beaten with a whippy Redwood limb?


It would depend on the company. It would be a privilege to be in the woods with you two, and I'm married to an Aggie, so I'm pretty accustomed to physical abuse


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## Locust Cutter (Aug 27, 2014)

Gologit said:


> They're one of the basic logger food groups, along with caffeine and nicotine.
> 
> They're actually Donettes but with the usual Left Coast poetic license and free spirited pronunciation they're always referred to as Donettos.
> 
> ...



Well, I definitely ain't a logger, but the 2-3x packages of the white ones, some Copenhagen Long-Cut Straight and 2 thermoses of coffee will just about get me going for a morning of building barbed-wire fence and cutting trees on the ranch. That and Bacon...


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## slowp (Aug 27, 2014)

Randy, I'll volunteer to come down and tell you what you are doing wrong, and bribe with cookies. Mmmmm, cookies.


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## slowp (Aug 27, 2014)

madhatte said:


> A tree a day in big redwood is not an insubstantial volume. Lemme know if you need any blue paint slung.


 
I'm curious. Why do we call it slinging paint? What is the ancient origin of this term? It's been around a while.


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## madhatte (Aug 28, 2014)

slowp said:


> I'm curious. Why do we call it slinging paint? What is the ancient origin of this term? It's been around a while.



Dunno. I just speak the language of the paint-slinging ancients.


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## Eccentric (Aug 28, 2014)

*My S.W.A.G.:*

Your predecessors probably dipped a brush (or little mop on a stick) into a can/pot of paint and then brushed paint on da tree. Those that were in a hurry (or bored) probably just 'slinged' some paint offa said brush/mop onto the tree and moved onto the next one. Slingin' paint.....


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## M.R. (Aug 28, 2014)

Yup... It had to be a Woman that coined this phrase, dating clear back to 'Hunters & Gathers' as no man can do everything right / to their Spec's.


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 28, 2014)

Eccentric said:


> You also need a second sawyer to carry gear, beat wedges, and get yelled at. Just say when...




What is that in your right hand ?


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## madhatte (Aug 28, 2014)

Eccentric said:


> *My S.W.A.G.:*
> 
> Your predecessors probably dipped a brush (or little mop on a stick) into a can/pot of paint and then brushed paint on da tree. Those that were in a hurry (or bored) probably just 'slinged' some paint offa said brush/mop onto the tree and moved onto the next one. Slingin' paint.....



Or just, you know, spun around in a circle really fast hoping to land a perfect stripe everywhere all at once. That practice was halted when the district forester's truck was accidentally felled by an overzealous cutting crew.


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## slowp (Aug 28, 2014)

I have kind of flipped my hand whilst shooting paint to give it extra velocity because I didn't want to wade through nasty brush or something. I guess that is slinging although it is more of a fling.


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## Eccentric (Aug 28, 2014)

madhatte said:


> *Or just, you know, spun around in a circle really fast hoping to land a perfect stripe everywhere all at once.* That practice was halted when the district forester's truck was accidentally felled by an overzealous cutting crew.



With "The Sound if Music" playing in the background?


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## madhatte (Aug 28, 2014)

Eccentric said:


> With "The Sound if Music" playing in the background?



I can neither confirm nor deny.


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## madmarksolomon (Aug 29, 2014)

HuskStihl said:


> TruDat. I actually have no idea what donetto's even are.


You should wash your mouth out with soup for that statement,
Don't know what donettos are sheeeeesh they are only pure logger fuel


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## madhatte (Aug 30, 2014)

madmarksolomon said:


> they are only pure logger fuel



ain't never seen a "pure" logger in my life


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## northmanlogging (Aug 30, 2014)

We've met haven't we?

(as if I"m pure anything... pure butt mudd maybe...)


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## Eccentric (Aug 30, 2014)

Metcha at Bob's place last June. Thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Got the NML stickers to prove it too.


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