# termite damage



## CA arborista (Jun 23, 2007)

I'm treating two Black oaks imported to the valley. One displays mechanical damage the other has bark necrosis up the trunk a good 16" and shows termite damage at the base with cracks in the cambial tissue. I suspect that this tree may have been mechanically damaged, as well, creating dead tissue for the termites to feed on.

Dr. Shigo said that termites "eat in the tree and live elsewhere." Even if the tree doesn't have active termites, how can I determine the extent of damage and risk for failure (due to the damage at the base of the trunk)? The tree shows second-trauma spiral of decline symptoms. Can it recover?


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## ASD (Jun 23, 2007)

some pic's would be nice:bang:


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## treeseer (Jun 23, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> how can I determine the extent of damage and risk for failure (due to the damage at the base of the trunk)? The tree shows second-trauma spiral of decline symptoms. Can it recover?


Maybe.

what symptoms? termites do not damage trees unless they are formosan, do they?

remove dead tissue at wound and measure. Yeah post pictures.

Read the June Arborist News CEU article and/or the attached.


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## CA arborista (Jun 25, 2007)

Yes, pics would be nice but , really, not necessary.

Have the June article about hazard asessment - what did I miss? Please, some one comment on the hope of recovery.

Thanx


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## Ekka (Jun 26, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> what did I miss?



You missed that Treeseer is Guy who was the author of the document.  

We have some real aggressive termites here. Dont know about them eating the tree and living elsewhere, could contest that with some of the dirt mounds I've sawn thru.

One of the strange things is I rarely if ever have seen termites eating the sapwood, it's always the heartwood. Dont know why, seems little research done on this and in some cases defies common sense as there's be more goodies in the sapwood than the heartwood.

What also matters is how damaged the roots are, you may need to wash away or air spade the root crown area and test.

What's the wall thickness etc? Is it hollow? And you can treat termites in trees, improve health and vigor of tree to slow decay. Really need to get some numbers, I get a portable drill with a long 1/8 bit and drill them if you dont have a resistograph or fractometer.


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## CA arborista (Jul 2, 2007)

Ekka - are you a trekka?

Sorry, that's been rolling around in my head. I'll have to go back and re-read treeseer's article. Thanx for the enlightenment.

I can't remove the dead from the tree because it could create a hazard. The tree is surrounded with brick about 1' away from the flare so the roots are covered by them and a hedge - really tight next to the tree. The 1/8 long drill bit sounds good - read the chips as they're pulled like you can with a chain saw.

Yeh! I read about the Formosans, too. I think the eating of the heartwood is because termites eat deadwood (!). They like to live in wet and eat dry. That's part of what's bothering me, if they gained entrance through the dead tissue, could they be eating the heartwood? In any case, if removal is necessary, we need to wait until the sap is down.


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## treeseer (Jul 2, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> The 1/8 long drill bit sounds good - read the chips as they're pulled like you can with a chain saw. :


Actually the diagnosis is not visual but kinetic--when the drill is not resisted, you know wood strength is gone. i put a foam earplug on the bit and then pull the drillbit out when resistance falls and just measure from the bit tip to the earplug for wall thickness. Capish?

you'll have to pull the bit in and out when drilling an oak (note to ekka--that is a hard wood)  otherwise it will get stuck. therefore reading the chips is not always so precise.


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## Ekka (Jul 3, 2007)

Dont buy one of those really long auger bits. You know the ones, have like an aggresive deep flute spiral the entire length.

I made that mistake, when it enters the tree you better hang on and pull backwards coz that mamma is like cutting it's own thread!


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## joesawer (Jul 3, 2007)

I have seen huge old black oaks standing on three legs with the cambian completly around each leg and the trunk hollow, broken, and the top broken out still green and trying to regrow a balanced canopy. 
+1 It might live.
Evaluate hazard.


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## CA arborista (Jul 6, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Actually the diagnosis is not visual but kinetic--when the drill is not resisted, you know wood strength is gone. i put a foam earplug on the bit and then pull the drillbit out when resistance falls and just measure from the bit tip to the earplug for wall thickness. Capish?
> 
> you'll have to pull the bit in and out when drilling an oak (note to ekka--that is a hard wood)  otherwise it will get stuck. therefore reading the chips is not always so precise.



Thanx, Ekka, for the bit advice. 

treeseer - Actually, in this tree I expect for there to be less resistance at the first (cambium appears dead at the damaged area on the trunk). I need to determine the depth of dead tissue to assess the hazard. The area is right at the base of the trunk. Yeah! I got the method - the earplug slides against the outside and marks the entrance for you. Genius. I've seen the "oops! nothing there" done with a chainsaw to determine if the trunk is hollow. I'm hoping that it doesn't do that! 

What's strange is the die back isn't specific to that side of the tree but generalized throughout. It has that awful "spiral of decline" look with the dead sticking out past the crown margin. 

joesawer -I've seen hollow oaks surviving, too, on just the cambium. Very dangerous next to or over a house!


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## treeseer (Jul 6, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> cambium appears dead at the damaged area on the trunk). I need to determine the depth of dead tissue to assess the hazard. The area is right at the base of the trunk. !


well then why not just excavate the dead tissue, stop when you get to boundaries, and measure?

It's hard to visualize the decline spiral without a picture, but often a tree dies back to a certain point and then chugs on after that.


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## Ekka (Jul 6, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> with the dead sticking out past the crown margin.



We refer to that as "stag headed" like the gum in this pic.


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## CA arborista (Jul 7, 2007)

tree seer - Well, I guess I just keep seeing a "face" in that trunk (Humbolt preferred) and I get a little queesy!

Ekka - That gum's just alright with me!


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## treeseer (Jul 8, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> tree seer - Well, I guess I just keep seeing a "face" in that trunk (Humbolt preferred) and I get a little queesy!
> :


This means you want to cut it down, before you've found out whether it should come down?

See anything wrong with that? Is the cart before the horse?

Removing dead tissue does not hurt the tree.


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## fast*st (Jul 16, 2007)

I have a similar issue with a large white pine I don't want it
to come down and really don't want to take it down. On the 
back side there is a fist size hole bored by ants it seems and 
also by something chasing the ants. 

I'd guess the dbh to be about 30-32 inches and the injury is
about four inches deep with some upward progression. 

I sprayed around the trunk with ant / insect killer but is 
there any way to fill the hole to seal it up that nothing else
uses it for a home? I of course have seen cement but was
wondering if there was some new epoxy or urethane that'd
be good for filling the void to help the tree heal. 

I did by accident clip a birch with the backhoe outrigger and 
knocked off a hubcap sized piece of bark, tacked the piece 
back on with some short nails and sealed the edges with a 
small amount of tar, the piece is still alive so that seems to be 
a good sign, will remove the nails next year. 

-Jason


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## CA arborista (Jul 16, 2007)

treeseer -

Whoa! Hold onto your panty hose! Absolutely not! I was just commenting on the removal of dead tissue (...and who knows how deep or progressed?). This is why I don't want to take the "removal of dead tissue approach. In fact, I have an appointment on Wednesday to draw up a simple contract with the property owner to secure his permission to discover the extent of the termite damage, possibly treat the infestation, feed and clean the tree(s) (there are actually two) and do our darndest to save and restore both trees.

fast*st - The current approach is to not fill, tack back on, or coat any body parts. Clean the wound and let it heal. Trees can compartmentalize to contain ants and other invaders. Prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2007)

ok panty hose held...

what source do you have for not reattaching freshly torn bark?

how can you competently assess a cavity without removing dead tissue?


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## fast*st (Jul 16, 2007)

I don't have but one green dot, someone with a lot of them in
another thread, mentioned that if the outer bark is peeled
back and hasn't dried out and died, that it can be tacked 
back in place and it'll re-attach. I believe it was in response 
to repairing lightning strike damage. Will keep up with the 
bug killer stuff and hopefully they'll abandon this tree. Still 
don't like those huge holes 

-Jason


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## CA arborista (Jul 21, 2007)

treeseer - Had a discussion with a local arborist working in a nursery that felt that it was futile - if you have authority it would be wonderful! Seemed to me at the time (it was a magnolia) that it would work.

I've had a real time of it up here in the boonies. One guy kept telling a client that Sieridium canker was a bacteria and I had to print off the internet to prove that it wasn't. The quality of arborist service is only equaled by tree service and firewood sellers. Even though we are the only tree service with an arborist, there are two others that advertise as such - one states that he is a "master arborist" - all without cerification. Found this out from a client that simply asked, " What do you have to do to be an arborist?", and no one could produce verification but me. 

My greatest desire is to be a really good arborist. I love science and love the "bigger picture" of the whole thing.

Jason - I appreciate your heart. I've found that seeing tree physiology as similar to ours has been helpful. What caused the hole?


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## treeseer (Jul 21, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> Even though we are the only tree service with an arborist, there are two others that advertise as such - one states that he is a "master arborist" - all without cerification. ?


if you get a copy of their ad, send a copy to isa. [email protected] for details.


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## CA arborista (Jul 27, 2007)

treeseer - Thanx. I already spoke with Anne at the ISA. Faxed her the ad. Couldn't wait to see the new AT&T ads but everything was the same. Oh, well.

You never told me who to reference for tacking fresh bark back on. And there's nothing wrong with removing dead tissue - just didn't want to compromise the tree's stability by removing too much.


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## treeseer (Jul 27, 2007)

CA arborista said:


> who to reference for tacking fresh bark back on.


well you can look at page 15 here in the sidebar-- http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_June_07.pdf Also shigo talked about it. don't know of formal research on it.


> And there's nothing wrong with removing dead tissue - just didn't want to compromise the tree's stability by removing too much.


 Right; I usually remove the soft stuff and leave the hard stuff for stength. 

airspades make great cavity cleaners.


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## CA arborista (Aug 2, 2007)

treeseer - thanx for the reference. I resently had a run in with some flying broken potery and had a very deep scrape on my arm. Part of the original skin was still attached so I smoothed it over and applied anti-bacterial ointment and a bandaid, to allow the wound to heal from the inside out. What would correlate to this procedure in the world of arboriculture? I think that trees are alot like us.

Good news on the termite tree - we did the drilling with the 1/8" bit and the heart wood was sound. I placed termite killer around the base of the tree, in the dirt, we cleaned the crown removing deadwood and potentially hazardous branches, and the old gardener was replaced with two guys I was able to talk to and discuss good sustained release fertilizer. The owner was pleased. His wife still had her tree with its squirrels and birds to watch. 

Happy Ending!


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