# SRT RADS and Tree Frog demo



## moss (Sep 1, 2009)

This is a followup on the "SRT Training" thread. Bob and I went back to the woods and made some video, first Bob climbing on the Yo-Yo (RADS) and me demo'ing my Tree Frog configuration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlJc2ZL3Io
-moss


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## demographic (Sep 1, 2009)

Quite interesting, I used to rock climb a fair bit years ago and also had the Petzl ascenders for getting into old mines using SRT, I remember the Grigri coming out but never used one yet, looks a good bit of kit and makes changing over from ascenders to a descender a far simpler process than my mate and I used to do.

Thanks for posting it.

Scott.


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## bulldoglover (Sep 2, 2009)

Moss, I have to thank you. I found this thread last night and spent the rest of the night on your you tube page(till my wife yelled at me that I was keeping her up). I'v been climbing for a long time and was thinking of trying SRT. After your you tube I am all excited about it, Wish'n I had a few hundred bucks to go get the equipment. Keep those videos coming, I enjoyed the "how to" aspect. looks like you use one rope for Srt and one for Drt, is that the best way? Thanks for all the info.


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## moss (Sep 3, 2009)

bulldoglover said:


> Wish'n I had a few hundred bucks to go get the equipment. Keep those videos coming, I enjoyed the "how to" aspect. looks like you use one rope for Srt and one for Drt, is that the best way? Thanks for all the info.



You can get started with a couple of handled ascenders (Texas system) and an F8. You can do it all on one 150' arb rope, one of the 11mm ropes works best with the hardware. I use a dedicated 200 ft. static rope for climbs on taller conifers where I have to hike to the tree. For most hardwood trees you use an 11mm arb rope for regular friciton hitch climbing and SRT. If you cinch a 150' rope with say a running bowline you can SRT up, lanyard in and switch over to DRT/friction hitch to climb in the crown. I've done that method with a split tail on the rope as the lower ascender and a handled ascender up top When you switch over to DRT in the tree the hitch is already on the rope ready to go. So there's ways to do it safe without spending a ton of money on hardware.
-moss


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## deevo (Sep 3, 2009)

moss said:


> This is a followup on the "SRT Training" thread. Bob and I went back to the woods and made some video, first Bob climbing on the Yo-Yo (RADS) and me demo'ing my Tree Frog configuration:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlJc2ZL3Io
> -moss



Good video, I've been using the RAD system for 2 years now with 11 mm blaze and the fly. Great system, very simple/safe, and efficient. I recommend it for sure too anyone looking for a SRT set up! :greenchainsaw:


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## bulldoglover (Sep 4, 2009)

Thanks moss.


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## tree md (Oct 22, 2009)

How convenient, I was just trying to compare the RAD and tree frog systems and got this topic as my first hit when I searched. 

Great demo Moss! 

In your opinion, which is the most efficient system? Looks like the RAD would be a more energy saving system and I love the thought of having a gri gri for quick descent but the tree frog looks very slick as well. BTW, best demo of the tree frog I have seen yet.

I bought my saddle (Petzl Mini Boss) with the tree frog in mind but I am starting to lean toward the RAD system. It's more cost effective and like I said, I like the gri gri.

Keeping in mind that I am a top heavy climber, which do you think would work best for me? I do plan to switch over to DRT once topside.

Thus far I have been ascending on a doubled line with a foot and hand ascender.


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## moss (Oct 22, 2009)

Glad that demo did the job for you. Tree Frog is significantly more efficient but RADS is potentially a better work system since you can switch ascent and descent modes quickly. The TF excels for long climbs away from the trunk, I don't like it as much working through tight branches against the trunk in a conifer, RADS is much better for that. The good news is it's easy enough to switch between RADS and TF during a climb if you want to use one or the other.

For top heavy climbers some variety of rope walker system with a chest roller is going to be a good option. Here's a friend definitely in that category moving nicely up the rope on a modified arb/caving system, he calls it a bungee rope walker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkFE40ZrHo

He describes the system in this thread:
http://treeclimbercoalition.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1313

-moss


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## tree md (Oct 22, 2009)

Very cool system. I was reading about some sort of bungee system a little while back, maybe in On Rope. Sounds interesting. I also saw some footage of someone using a bungee system on a doubled rope on another site. Looked like a very efficient way to ascend on a doubled line as well. As soon as I get some play money where I can buy what I want to and not have to buy what I need I am going to get a croll, techcord and other goodies and try some new techniques. I wish I had someone close around me to rec climb with and learn.

Thanks for the info Moss!


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 1, 2009)

moss said:


> This is a followup on the "SRT Training" thread. Bob and I went back to the woods and made some video, first Bob climbing on the *Yo-Yo (RADS)* and me demo'ing my Tree Frog configuration:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlJc2ZL3Io
> -moss



*moss* -

The pulley in the RADS system, is it really needed? Is pulling the rope down really adding enough efficiency to warrant the addition of the pulley? What's the downside of simply running the rope through the biner? Or better yet, how about just pulling rope up out of the GRIGRI? 

... just looking to simplify, if reasonable

- Jack


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## moss (Dec 1, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *moss* -
> 
> The pulley in the RADS system, is it really needed? Is pulling the rope down really adding enough efficiency to warrant the addition of the pulley? What's the downside of simply running the rope through the biner? Or better yet, how about just pulling rope up out of the GRIGRI?
> 
> ...



To make the Grigri function properly you need to redirect the tail upward. It would be a huge waste of energy to do it by hand, could be done but I think you'd get tired off it pretty quick. You could substitute a biner for the pulley but having it run nice and easy over a pulley adds enough efficiency to make it worthwhile. Here's another way of looking at it. Climbers who use a slack tender on their DdRT system can install a pulley or just redirect the tail though the biner that holds the split tail. I've tried it and I always go back to using a micropulley. I think it's the same for RADS pulley, you can go with out it but it's much better with it.

Jim Dunlap on the Buzzboard has his rigged with a pulley with one cheek removed, that way it's quick to take the rope off when you need to. The downside is that the rope can jump off the pulley at the wrong time.
-moss


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 1, 2009)

moss said:


> To make the Grigri function properly you need to redirect the tail upward. It would be a *huge waste of energy to do it by hand*, could be done but I think you'd get tired off it pretty quick. You could substitute a biner for the pulley but having it run nice and easy over a *pulley adds enough efficiency to make it worthwhile*. Here's another way of looking at it. Climbers who use a slack tender on their DdRT system can install a pulley or just redirect the tail though the biner that holds the split tail. I've tried it and I always go back to using a micropulley. I think it's the same for RADS pulley, you can go with out it but it's much better with it.
> 
> Jim Dunlap on the Buzzboard has his rigged with a pulley with one cheek removed, that way it's quick to take the rope off when you need to. The downside is that the rope can jump off the pulley at the wrong time.
> -moss



Thanks! I've got the pulley and the other elements - just trying to evaluate all alternatives while determining if the GRIGRI is a worthwhile investment for tree work - it's good to have alternative techniques.


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## cookiecutter (Dec 1, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Thanks! I've got the pulley and the other elements - just trying to evaluate all alternatives while determining if the GRIGRI is a worthwhile investment for tree work - it's good to have alternative techniques.



In this set up I have substituded the GRIGRI with a mad lock http://www.madrockclimbing.com/madlockbelaydevice.aspx in cinch mode. A petzl reverso or similiar in cinch mode can also be used. There is an extra step involved when you decide to decend, but it works alright. I only propose this as an alternative technique with gear you may already have, it is much smoother with a GRIGRI.


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## moss (Dec 2, 2009)

cookiecutter said:


> In this set up I have substituded the GRIGRI with a mad lock http://www.madrockclimbing.com/madlockbelaydevice.aspx in cinch mode. A petzl reverso or similiar in cinch mode can also be used. There is an extra step involved when you decide to decend, but it works alright. I only propose this as an alternative technique with gear you may already have, it is much smoother with a GRIGRI.



Can you post a photo? Curious to see what this looks like rigged to climb.
-moss


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## cookiecutter (Dec 2, 2009)

moss said:


> Can you post a photo? Curious to see what this looks like rigged to climb.
> -moss



Here is a video showing it rigged up. 
In the video there are also two other techniques I've messed around with. One utilizing the Alpine clutch, the other a cinching munter (I'm not sure of the correct name). The madlock technique I have used in a tree, the other two I have only tried in my research lab aka college apartment.

I propose none of these as 'go to' methods and none of them will I use in a tree until I have done solid testing on them low to the ground. They are just what I could come up with with the limited gear I have. 

Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jsViEU3us8


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## moss (Dec 2, 2009)

Nice improvisations Cookiecutter. I like the Madrock belay device setup the most, it seems to have the quickest/easiest switchover to rappel mode.

There is a point of diminishing returns with RADS alternatives, it's biggest virtue is that you have rappel immediately available. Especially if you don't have the ascender tethered to your harness, you can bail out instantly if needed. So the more involved the switchover on a RADS, the more you have to wonder if a Texas or other two ascender ascent technique is going to be better since the switchover on those systems is reasonably easy and they're more efficient for ascent then a RADS.

All that said I appreciate your thinking and obvious rope smarts.
-moss


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## cookiecutter (Dec 2, 2009)

moss said:


> There is a point of diminishing returns with RADS alternatives, it's biggest virtue is that you have rappel immediately available. Especially if you don't have the ascender tethered to your harness, you can bail out instantly if needed. So the more involved the switchover on a RADS, the more you have to wonder if a Texas or other two ascender ascent technique is going to be better since the switchover on those systems is reasonably easy and they're more efficient for ascent then a RADS.



Good points, I hadn't thought that over. Your level of experience is clearly shown here. After reading your post and some more testing I think my alternatives are best left as cool tricks, not a whole lot of practical application. Has been fun figuring it out though.

I have really appreciated your videos, they are enjoyable to watch and keep me learning!

-cutter


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## moss (Dec 3, 2009)

cookiecutter said:


> ..After reading your post and some more testing I think my alternatives are best left as cool tricks, not a whole lot of practical application. Has been fun figuring it out though.



Don't toss them, each of them is good to have in your bag of tricks, especially some of those locking setups on biners, if you only have hitches to climb SRT say in an emergency or in a backwoods minimal gear situation your systems are looking very good.
-moss


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## cookiecutter (Dec 3, 2009)

moss said:


> Don't toss them, each of them is good to have in your bag of tricks, especially some of those locking setups on biners, if you only have hitches to climb SRT say in an emergency or in a backwoods minimal gear situation your systems are looking very good.
> -moss



I'll definitely be keeping them in the bag of tricks. Here is one more way that works, in my opinion, much better than the 3 i previously showed. It is much more yoyo friendly, rappel is instant if needed. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5cHFx4Lz38


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 9, 2009)

moss said:


> To make the Grigri function properly you need to redirect the tail upward. It would be a huge waste of energy to do it by hand, could be done but I think you'd get tired off it pretty quick. You could substitute a biner for the pulley but having it run nice and easy over a pulley adds enough efficiency to make it worthwhile. Here's another way of looking at it. Climbers who use a slack tender on their DdRT system can install a pulley or just redirect the tail though the biner that holds the split tail. I've tried it and I always go back to using a micropulley. I think it's the same for RADS pulley, you can go with out it but it's much better with it.
> 
> Jim Dunlap on the Buzzboard has his rigged with a pulley with one cheek removed, that way it's quick to take the rope off when you need to. The downside is that the rope can jump off the pulley at the wrong time.
> -moss





SINGLE-JACK said:


> Thanks! I've got the pulley and the other elements - just trying to evaluate all alternatives while determining if the GRIGRI is a worthwhile investment for tree work - it's good to have alternative techniques.



*Moss *-

Yeah, you're right the pulley definately makes the RADS a lot easier. Please accept yet another question. 

I've been reading everything I can find about RADS and it's alternatives. I've found some pretty interesting (& strange) configurations. *So, do you know of any reasonable way to use the GRIGRI in a Tree Frog system?*

- Jack


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## moss (Dec 9, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *So, do you know of any reasonable way to use the GRIGRI in a Tree Frog system?*
> 
> - Jack



Tree Frog is very good as is. Putting a descender into it would make it way too complex, if it could be done. Don't think it's possible or desirable.
-moss


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 9, 2009)

moss said:


> Tree Frog is very good as is. Putting a descender into it would make it way too complex, if it could be done. Don't think it's possible or desirable.
> -moss



Yeah, I figured as much ... just exploring every branch on this tree (pun intended) ... Thanks!

BTW ... I've read Tom Dunlap (et al) removed a side plate on the RAD pulley to ease the change-over ... ever hear of anyone using the Rock Exotica Omni-Block with the push button side plate? I know it's a little pricey but it seems like a good idea if there's already one in your kit.


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 10, 2009)

Hey Moss I know this is a little off topic, but I notice you really like to climb those White Pines in your area... I'm up in Ontario and they're the tallest trees we have around here as well, I've done a fair bit of rec climbing myself playing around on weekends, but never using SRT like you do. With a bit more gear I'd like to give it a shot. 

But what I was initially getting at was some trees we have up here in Algonquin park. A few buddies of mine made the trek in to the interior last summer, its a good 3 day round trip minimum. Its a place just off the North arm of a lake called Opeongo, the route from there goes Proulx lake --> crow river --> little crow --> big crow. On big crow lake there are a couple neat features, the first is an old firetower about 80ft tall on the top of a big hill overlooking the lake, still a ladder on it so its a fun place to do some rappelling with figure 8s and just playin around in the air with a beautiful view of the area. (Have a few pics of that one I think.) The second place is a hiking trail off the North Eastern shore of the lake, its about 2km in to the trees. In that stand you will find the biggest white pine I have seen in the 4 years I've been paying attention to trees. The stand is totally land locked by water and steep terrain so it have never been logged... these are trees like those that the settlers first saw when they arrived on this continent and exist in very few places today. They are easily 140ft, with the first branch being just under 60ft. We made an attemt to climb them but were Ill equipped to get anywhere past that first tie in point safley... They will be conquered next time now that we know what we're walking into. I have a pic at the base of one of these trees from the first trip I made in there w/o climbing gear just to show diameter.

If you're into portaging at all then you should definatly come check out algonquin sometime, this particular trip is a good one to bring climbing gear on because its mostly paddling and only 1km of hiking between Opeongo and Proulx lakes.


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## moss (Dec 12, 2009)

Nice photos Lumberjack, beautiful area, love to get up there someday. Interesting white pine you've got in the photo. It's not that big in diameter but the bark has the look of an old-growth white pine. I wonder if they grow slower there due to the cooler climate/longer winters. Would be very interesting to get a core sample to know how old it is. I'm guessing that 140' is the upper limit of what white pine can reach in that area. Thanks for the post.
-moss


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 12, 2009)

Yeah pictures do no justice, thats one thats close to the trail... there are more further in I could see from the top of the canopy, gotta do some bushwacking though and firing a throwball through the thick stuff without a bigshot would be a tangled mess... Hopefully I'll get to the top on our 2010 trip, get a good pic of the 20 or so monster crowns poking through the beech and maple. Its kinda neat really, looking at the last few remaining dominant pine in a stand that is succeeding into tolerant hardwoods. (The beech there are full of claw marks as well, black bears love the beech nuts) Gives the whole place an eerie feel, like you're being watched. I have no doubt we'll see a bear or two in there if we keep going back. 

There is also a a stand of red pine on another lake, rumored to be over the 100ft mark, thats about a 5 day trip though... maybe for another year. After that ---> West Coast redwoods? Yes. Looking at those pictures in national geographic... too cool.

Thanks for the info moss, keep these posts and videos comin!


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## demographic (Dec 27, 2009)

Just got this when I looked for it this time...


> This video has been removed by the user.


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## moss (Dec 27, 2009)

demographic said:


> Just got this when I looked for it this time...



It's here now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCtYosiOY5I
-moss


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## demographic (Dec 28, 2009)

moss said:


> It's here now:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCtYosiOY5I
> -moss



Great stuff, cheers.


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## Josh777 (Apr 28, 2010)

Does the pulley in the RADS system actually provide a mechanical advantage, and therefore make you pull extra rope for the achieved distance. Or is it merely a redirect of the force?

In other words, if someone is using the RADS, are they trading ease of pulling for a shorter amount of movement up the rope? 

-Josh


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## moss (May 2, 2010)

Josh777 said:


> Does the pulley in the RADS system actually provide a mechanical advantage, and therefore make you pull extra rope for the achieved distance. Or is it merely a redirect of the force?
> 
> In other words, if someone is using the RADS, are they trading ease of pulling for a shorter amount of movement up the rope?
> 
> -Josh



The pulley (redirect) is simply allowing you to have a Grigri or similar device installed on the rope while you're ascending SRT. The benefit to having a Grigri installed on the the rope is:

a. It's capturing progress and is functioning as an ascender in that mode
b. You can instantly switch over to descent without having to lanyard off to the tree or do any major gear reconfiguration (simply take the ascender off the rope and descend).

RADS is not as efficient as SRT systems that utilize only mechanical ascenders but it is useful when you wan to be able to quickly change back and forth between ascent and descent.
-moss


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