# 404 verses 3/8



## carvinmark (Jun 24, 2006)

What are the advantages of running 404 on my mill? I run a 395xp w/42" bar and 3/8 chain. Just got a reconditioned bar with a 404 tip.I am thinking about changing the tip to 3/8 but maby the 404 would be better????Any info would be great.


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## casey v (Jun 24, 2006)

I have never run .404, always 3/8, however the .404 is a longer pitch and should have less teeth engaged in the cut. This means less resistance on the powerhead. What do you think?

Mike


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## woodshop (Jun 24, 2006)

.404 is heavier chain, theoretically would take more abuse before breaking. But it makes a wider kerf. The thinner the kerf, the less power your saw needs to pull it through the wood, and the less wood you turn into sawdust. Example, my Ripsaw (chainsaw powered little bandmill) makes less than a 1/8 inch kerf, and thus a 60cc saw is plenty of power for it. The whole idea of milling that log is to get usable lumber. For me, even if I get only one extra board from a days milling with a thinner kerf chain (or even thinner bandsaw blade), that's one more I take home. I would use even thinner 3/8 LP chain if it would hold up, but I'm told it's not strong enough to take the riggers of milling, so standard 3/8 is what most folks use.


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## carvinmark (Jun 24, 2006)

casey v said:


> I have never run .404, always 3/8, however the .404 is a longer pitch and should have less teeth engaged in the cut. This means less resistance on the powerhead. What do you think?
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the reply Mike,
I've been told that it takes more power to run the larger chain?


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## t_andersen (Jun 24, 2006)

I just bought a 41" bar with 404. I was told that 3/8 would be too weak for 41" bars. I don't think that Stihl makes 41" bars for 3/8. Other brands of 41-42" bars for 3/8 are hard to find? Am I missing something?


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## oldsaw (Jun 24, 2006)

t_andersen said:


> I just bought a 41" bar with 404. I was told that 3/8 would be too weak for 41" bars. I don't think that Stihl makes 41" bars for 3/8. Other brands of 41-42" bars for 3/8 are hard to find? Am I missing something?



That could be a European thing. I'm running a 42" 3/8 bar for milling, and have for the past year and a half or so. No problems, not even excessive stretch. Was using it on an 066 until a couple of months ago when I upgraded to a 3120 as my primary milling saw. No sign of added stress in a 34" wide walnut. I was actually amazed at how often I didn't have to adjust the chain. I was expecting to do it more often than with the 066 due to the added stress, not so. At least to this point.

Mark


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## lumberjackchef (Jun 25, 2006)

A friend of mine just bought an Alaskan MK III with a 48" bar and he had the option of either 3/8 or 404. He chose the 3/8 and when it arrived I brought over my modified 066 to try it out. We only had enough daylight after set up to make two cuts on some 35"+ oak. I liked the way it worked with the 3/8 just fine. I will take some pics to post when I have a little more time.


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## lovetheoutdoors (Jun 26, 2006)

My question is, why are the cutting teeth on a 404 pitch chain so much larger than the cutting teeth on a 3/8 pitch?


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## woodshop (Jun 26, 2006)

lovetheoutdoors said:


> My question is, why are the cutting teeth on a 404 pitch chain so much larger than the cutting teeth on a 3/8 pitch?


That's like asking why a 395XP chainsaw is larger than 365. .404 is designed to be larger than 3/8, which is larger than 3/8LP, which is larger than 1/4. Coffee at the 7-11 comes in different sizes, so does chain.


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## lovetheoutdoors (Jun 26, 2006)

i understand that chain comes in diffrent sizes. that didnt answer my question.


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## woodshop (Jun 26, 2006)

lovetheoutdoors said:


> i understand that chain comes in diffrent sizes. that didnt answer my question.


...didn't mean to insult you there lovetheoutdoors, I guess I don't understand your question. Can you ask again but maybe elaborate? Maybe somebody a little sharper than I can answer it for you.


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## lovetheoutdoors (Jun 26, 2006)

woodshop said:


> ...didn't mean to insult you there lovetheoutdoors, I guess I don't understand your question. Can you ask again but maybe elaborate? Maybe somebody a little sharper than I can answer it for you.




im just not familiar with the 404 pitch.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

I went to my stash of chains. I run 3/8" .063 chain on a 20" bar on my 034 and .404 .063 on a 28", 41" and 72" on my 084. 3/8" and .404 are shown in the picture and you can clearly see the difference (.404 is bigger).

Now what I want to add... It seems to me that pitch has little to do with width of kerf. I measured as best I could with calipers the width of both the 3/8" and .404 chain. The difference between the two is negligible. To me, this makes since as they are both .063 GAUGE. In a cut, they may perform differently but I think that would be due to the number of teeth in the cut (assuming they are both full comp), not the kerf. I don't have any .050 or .058 chain on hand to try out but do have some 3/8" .063 ripping chain (220 drive links) for the 72"er on it's way to try against the .404 .063 (190 drive links). I'll let you know how it goes. I really want to find the BEST combination for my needs but chain costing $40-$50 per loop and the fact that all my bars are .063 gauge will make it take a while.


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## carvinmark (Jun 27, 2006)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> I went to my stash of chains. I run 3/8" .063 chain on a 20" bar on my 034 and .404 .063 on a 28", 41" and 72" on my 084. 3/8" and .404 are shown in the picture and you can clearly see the difference (.404 is bigger).
> 
> Now what I want to add... It seems to me that pitch has little to do with width of kerf. I measured as best I could with calipers the width of both the 3/8" and .404 chain. The difference between the two is negligible. To me, this makes since as they are both .063 GAUGE. In a cut, they may perform differently but I think that would be due to the number of teeth in the cut (assuming they are both full comp), not the kerf. I don't have any .050 or .058 chain on hand to try out but do have some 3/8" .063 ripping chain (220 drive links) for the 72"er on it's way to try against the .404 .063 (190 drive links). I'll let you know how it goes. I really want to find the BEST combination for my needs but chain costing $40-$50 per loop and the fact that all my bars are .063 gauge will make it take a while.



Wow! I don't know anything about the 404,except that it is heavier and is supposed to require more power. I was told by a few shops that the kerf is a lot more than the 3/8,even the same guage. I know what you mean about $ in chains and I'm trying to get it right(for me) this time around.Thank you for your input and I look forward to hearing what you experience. 
Mark


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## woodshop (Jun 27, 2006)

Thanks aggie for helping to try and clear this up. I assumed from what I have heard and read before, that the .404 does cut a wider kerf since it's a bigger chain. My Stihl dealer did tell me that .404 does take more power to pull through wood, but I really didn't know if that was actually true or not.


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## oldsaw (Jun 27, 2006)

Well, a 3/8 chain is .375" and 404 is .404, .029" difference, about 1/32 of an inch. Not going to take a lot more power. However, beefier build. I don't use it because it isn't readily available in the prairie. 3/8 063 is hard enough to come by.

Mark


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

woodshop said:


> Thanks aggie for helping to try and clear this up. I assumed from what I have heard and read before, that the .404 does cut a wider kerf since it's a bigger chain. My Stihl dealer did tell me that .404 does take more power to pull through wood, but I really didn't know if that was actually true or not.



I'm trying to get through all the myths and BS myself. The more I look into this, the more I'm convinced that what many people think is fact, including myself, is a conglomeration of half-truths, misunderstandings and over simplifications. There are too many variables to simply state that 3/8" or any other chain cuts faster or slower than the next. I'll list what variables I can think of here and please fill in the blanks.

Output of saw- HP & torque @ XX RPM adjusted for atmospheric conditions
Length of bar
Pitch of chain
Gauge of chain
Mass of chain
Tooth pattern (full comp, half skip, full skip, ect.)
Attitude of grind
Quality of sharpening
Chain tension
Size of drive sprocket
Chain lubrication
Specie of wood being cut
......



Back to the original question, "What are the advantages of running 404 on my mill?" If you switch from a 3/8 to a 404 chain of the same gauge and tooth pattern, you will have fewer teeth in the cut. This is a fact. Will you get increased performance as a result? It depends on the sum of all of the variables above and then some. I've looked high and low and have yet to find any scientific data to help solve this problem. Dealers in my area have been little help.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters here. I just wanted to rant a bit. I'll something more helpful in a bit.


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## t_andersen (Jun 27, 2006)

Wouldn't a 404 be stronger than a 3/8? And, with a 41" bar on a big saw, the chain forces must be large? So, wouldn't a 3/8 wear faster and be more at risk for breakage?


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## woodshop (Jun 27, 2006)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Output of saw- HP & torque @ XX RPM adjusted for atmospheric conditions
> Length of bar
> Pitch of chain
> Gauge of chain
> ...


Pretty comprehensive list there... only thing I would maybe add would be temperature. I remember when I was logging for a paper company that in winter when the pine trees were frozen hard as a rock we used to say the saws seemed to cut through them cleaner, easier than in the heat of summer. That may have been only in our heads though. Maybe had to do with how the sap was running (or not) that time of year? Your point is well taken though, there are LOTS of variables cutting wood with a chainsaw. 404 pitch chain being only one of many that effect the big picture. 

I just bought 2 more milling chains, 3/8 .063 119 links for my 36 inch GB csm, $24 each from Baileys. The same chain, but .404 .063 would be only $2 more each. Not a big difference. Aggie is running a 72 inch bar though... so double that, and it does start to add up. Thats not premium GB milling chain though, just the basic stuff Baileys sells ground to 10 degrees, but it works for me.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

oldsaw said:


> Well, a 3/8 chain is .375" and 404 is .404, .029" difference, about 1/32 of an inch. Not going to take a lot more power. However, beefier build. I don't use it because it isn't readily available in the prairie. 3/8 063 is hard enough to come by.
> 
> Mark



This is true, but the context is misplaced. The difference between .404 and .375 chain is the average distance between rivets on the drive links (.029" per link). From what I've learned, you are supposed to measure across 4 rivets and divide by three. I set the callipers to match the theoretical measurement of each pitch and compaired them against the chains. (see pics)

.404 x 3 = 1.212"

.375 x 3 = 1.125"

I have the same problem with availability. I wish I knew what I know now before I invested so much money in bars and chains.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

woodshop said:


> Pretty comprehensive list there... only thing I would maybe add would be temperature. I remember when I was logging for a paper company that in winter when the pine trees were frozen hard as a rock we used to say the saws seemed to cut through them cleaner, easier than in the heat of summer. That may have been only in our heads though. Maybe had to do with how the sap was running (or not) that time of year? Your point is well taken though, there are LOTS of variables cutting wood with a chainsaw. 404 pitch chain being only one of many that effect the big picture.
> 
> I just bought 2 more milling chains, 3/8 .063 119 links for my 36 inch GB csm, $24 each from Baileys. The same chain, but .404 .063 would be only $2 more each. Not a big difference. Aggie is running a 72 inch bar though... so double that, and it does start to add up. Thats not premium GB milling chain though, just the basic stuff Baileys sells ground to 10 degrees, but it works for me.




I ordered some chains myself yesterday for the 72"er from Bailey's. 
1 loop of .404 ripping chain - 190 links at $0.22 = $41.80
1 loop of .375 ripping chain - 220 links at $0.20 = $44.00

Great thing about this GB bar is it's a roller nose (NOT hard nose or sprocket). I can run any pitch chain by simply swapping the drive sprocket as long as its .063 gauge.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

t_andersen said:


> Wouldn't a 404 be stronger than a 3/8? And, with a 41" bar on a big saw, the chain forces must be large? So, wouldn't a 3/8 wear faster and be more at risk for breakage?



I would tend to agree in theory. If you look at the chains in the picture you can see the .404 tie strap is taller. However, I usually wear the teeth of a chain out from sharpening long before the links show excessive wear on either pitch.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

I found a .058 chain to compaire the .063 to. Here are pictures of the drive link thicknesses...


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

and here are pictures of the theoretical kerf they make. The actual kerf will be larger due to vibration, etc. Maybe I'll have time to make some cuts and measure 'em.

I included both .375-.063 and .404-.063 to show how little difference there is between the two.


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## Adkpk (Jun 27, 2006)

Aggie that is great stuff, thanks. I was reading an old post http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&highlight=rakers.
If you havn't read this give yourself a day and read it.(it's like 30 pages) I did a search for rakers and couldn't get out of this thread for nothing. Somewhere in the middle Art Martin answered my question to the tee. Mind you the thread is of many other things, nothing to do with milling, non-the-less if you like chainsaws and chainsawing this thread will suck you in. Any he explains something about the angle of the raker pulling the tooth up in order to take the chip out of the wood. 
I think this has more to do with the pull of the chain on the saw. Let me get out of this by saying, if you want to expand your scienctific quest, that guy gets about as scientific about chain than anybody I have ever heard. He's talking race chain just so you don't waste your time if there is NO relation to milling chain. But I feel I am better chain sharpener for it.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Jun 27, 2006)

Adrpk said:


> Aggie that is great stuff, thanks. I was reading an old post http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&highlight=rakers.
> If you havn't read this give yourself a day and read it.(it's like 30 pages) I did a search for rakers and couldn't get out of this thread for nothing. Somewhere in the middle Art Martin answered my question to the tee. Mind you the thread is of many other things, nothing to do with milling, non-the-less if you like chainsaws and chainsawing this thread will suck you in. Any he explains something about the angle of the raker pulling the tooth up in order to take the chip out of the wood.
> I think this has more to do with the pull of the chain on the saw. Let me get out of this by saying, if you want to expand your scienctific quest, that guy gets about as scientific about chain than anybody I have ever heard. He's talking race chain just so you don't waste your time if there is NO relation to milling chain. But I feel I am better chain sharpener for it.



Thanks. It may be a long night.opcorn:


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## oldsaw (Jun 27, 2006)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> This is true, but the context is misplaced. The difference between .404 and .375 chain is the average distance between rivets on the drive links (.029" per link). From what I've learned, you are supposed to measure across 4 rivets and divide by three. I set the callipers to match the theoretical measurement of each pitch and compaired them against the chains. (see pics)
> 
> .404 x 3 = 1.212"
> 
> ...



I post the most retarded things at night...brain shutdown. I wanted width. Too tired tonight to look it up. Someone can go to the Oregon website.

Mark


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## upandcommer (Jun 28, 2006)

I have now milled with .325 .375 and .404 the .325 is far too weak to make cutting long boards in hard wood worth a damn the .375 is OK but .404 is where i place my hat the .375 is .50 guage and the other two are .63 guage the .375 does make a narrower curf but other than that the only difference I have noticed is time in the cut. It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. SO my suggestion is if you own a torque saw and don't feel like working all day on a single pass upgrade to .404. If however you are trying to mill with a 60 cc saw then stick with .375 I myself have an OLD mac 80cc that is not much for hp but has torque from the word go so the .404 is no problem for it in anything I have ever asked it to do.


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## rmihalek (Jun 28, 2006)

*Gearing*

The other difference between the .375 and the .404 is the effect that the pitch has on gearing. An 8 tooth sprocket pulling a .375 pitch chain will pull (8x.375=) 3 inches of chain per revolution whereas an 8 tooth sprocket pulling .404 will give 3.2 inches per revolution. If you're milling at 8,000 rpm, the difference is then 24,000 feet per minute of chain versus 25,600 fpm.

So, at the same engine speed you're pulling an extra 1,600 feet of chain through the wood every minute: that takes more power.


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## woodshop (Jun 28, 2006)

upandcommer said:


> It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. QUOTE]
> ...curious what you mean when you say "curly q"...are you talking about what the wood chips look like coming from your saw? I usually only get fine sawdust when milling, much finer than when regular crosscutting which is what the chain was designed to do. What kind of chain are you using to mill with?


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## carvinmark (Jun 28, 2006)

woodshop said:


> upandcommer said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that the larger the teeth the more of a bite said teeth take of wood on a single pass i.e. more torque required to pull said teeth to make the curly q's we all love. QUOTE]
> ...


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## woodshop (Jun 28, 2006)

I seem to remember reading on a thread somewhere in this forum about this. Since the chain is not crosscutting the fibers as it is when cutting normally, you won't get chips, or curly q's, you get lots of fine bits of wood, sawdust. I havn't had time yet to read through that chain info thread mentioned a few posts ago, but maybe he addresses this in there?


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## upandcommer (Jun 28, 2006)

I use standard .404 x.63 from bailey's i reground it to 15 degree angles has worked like a charm for me since i first through it on the saw minus the too short problem i have an old mac 1-43 circa 1963 80cc manual oiler 80cc 20 pound torque monster i have bought but not used a 3/8ths sprocket for the said saw since I was given a hard nosed bar with it as long as my sprocket and chain match the guage I am golden. I have yet to experiment with 3/8ths though. If it isn't broken don't fix it.


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## carvinmark (Jun 28, 2006)

upandcommer said:


> I use standard .404 x.63 from bailey's i reground it to 15 degree angles has worked like a charm for me since i first through it on the saw minus the too short problem i have an old mac 1-43 circa 1963 80cc manual oiler 80cc 20 pound torque monster i have bought but not used a 3/8ths sprocket for the said saw since I was given a hard nosed bar with it as long as my sprocket and chain match the guage I am golden. I have yet to experiment with 3/8ths though. If it isn't broken don't fix it.



My experience with more than 10 degrees is a rougher finish on my lumber.Lately I have been going with 5 degrees. How is the finish on your cuts?


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## Adkpk (Jun 28, 2006)

I grind at 5 degrees also. And ya, the curly Q's, I've seen um. The first time I use my saw and mill. It was on a hugh maple. I was really excited. But that was it. Even after using new chain. That is one reason I went looking for the raker info. Dave there is no mention of anything about milling in that thread, nor curly Q's. This guy Art Martin goes on and on about grinding chain like it would set him free from hell if he got it right. He's like Divinci on saw chain. And you being the master at jigs, this would be interesting to you. You can learn stuff but it's not about milling. we need the Art Martin of ripping chain. I tried grinding down the rakers, that wasn't it. It was something that's for sure but no curly Q's. Lets hear about how you guys grind your rakers. My chains cut pretty good after I sharpen them but I will always be able to get it better.


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## upandcommer (Jun 28, 2006)

Well the first thing I do not do that most do is hand file. I can't do it and I reserve myself to this basic fact of human nature. I only use my bench mounted chain sharpener for all my sharpening needs. This may be why my chain pull curlies and yours doesn't minor imperfections in the angles of the leading edges would cause slight variations in the depth of each cutter. However it might be that I am doing something entirely wrong why my saw pulls curlies and yours throws dust. I have only milled say 5000 bf so far so I am a newbie by most of your standards. It very well could be the kinds of wood I mill too I have milled nothing but walnut and white and red oaks all very hard woods all under 23" across. I am just trying to think of reasons why my milling setup is different. I have reground the chain I would say 5-10 times so I know it is not the grinding that is doing it. I try to almost shine the links as opposed to cut them off with the grinding wheel I go super slow and try to almost use the course wheel as a buffer by the time my last pass is done on each cutter. And to answer your question my boards are fine as long as I go 15 degrees or lower any higher and I start to get chain chatter I call it.


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## Grande Dog (Jun 28, 2006)

There are a few things that are the major contributors to kerf for any chain onto itself. The newer a chain is the wider the kerf because the tooth gets narrower towards the tail. The greater the grind angle is more the chain will pull from center. The looser the bar grove is the more the chain is allowed to deflect off center. To get the narrowest kerf on any given chain, the tooth needs to be at the end of its life, the chain is ground at 0, and the bar groove is tight. The following measurements are from our ripping chain that is manufactured by Carlton. From the center of the drive link to the outside edge of the cutter on .404 is .160" making the minimum possible kerf .320". The .375 is .135" making its smallest possible kerf .270". That makes a minimum of 16% more kerf for the .404. There might be some curves here but, I would say it takes that much more power for the same cut. As far as chain speed goes this is the math I came up with. Using an earlier post example, if you have an 8 tooth rim turning 8000 rpm's there will be 64000 drive links per minute whether it's .375 or .404. The .375 has 16.4 drive links per foot which comes out to 3900 feet per minute. The .404 has 14.8 drive links per foot which comes out to 4300 feet per minute.


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## woodshop (Jun 28, 2006)

THANKS Grande Dog for helping to clear some of this up. I never thought of the tooth taking less of a kerf as you sharpen it, but it makes sense now that you say that. So from what you have just said, when that Stihl dealer told me .404 takes a bit more power to pull through wood, he was correct. 16 or so percent isn't a lot, but when you're milling wide stuff, you need all the power you can get, and waste as little as you can. Nothing wrong with using .404 for those that do, but I'll stick with 3/8 .063. on my 36" GB. I just can't see any good reason to move to .404 for what I do and how I mill.


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