# Triangulating Fall with Stick Trick



## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 2, 2002)

Here is a diagram i made a while back in MSPaint for triangulating a fall or topping with 'Stick Trick' and why it works. i know it has come up a few times, and we use it a lot on removals. 

It plots the fall from the cut to the top, when the top of rake lines up with the top of the tree, and your hand points at the hinge, you should be standing where the top will hit, purtty darned accurate! This shows 1 of the 3 dimensions that the machine of the hinge controls. By raising the hinge, we shorten the fall.

As a .bmp file it was too big @ 901kb limit here is 100kb i believe.
i saved it as a .jpg and it was still 117 kb., i tried selecting it, right clicking it in MSPaint, to reduce it but the print readability fell. So i saved it as .gif today, and it kame out @ 24kb! a lil rough in Microsoft Photo Editor (that my .gif extensions are set to open as), but was clear when i opened through MSPaint.

i am removing this pic. for even replacing it doesn't let it werk, yet 2 posts down the same pic werks!!!!!!!????????


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## jbw (Aug 2, 2002)

*felling trick*

another old trick that i have used is to walk directly away from your wedge cut, then occasionally bend over and look back between your legs. if you can see the top of the tree, you are at the point it will land. you need to be in shape for this one and not have that big growler hanging over your belt. also look around before attempting, someeone may sneak up behind you and ask you to back up a little.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 2, 2002)

ok let's try that pic a 3rd time.

P.S. it worx here, let me know if there are any other problems. 

Once again the .gif pic. was the smallest file size of .bmp, .jpg, .gif of the exact same pic. just run through standard MSPaint con-verter.

On any of the formats i can make a smaller file size by selecting the whole picture then right clicking, choosing stretch/skew from control menu, then telling it to expand file to 80% or what ever. The pic and file size shrinx. But doing this made the text real rough, so i converted to .gif, and left it the same size.


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 3, 2002)

TS 
Wouldnt you have to roll your head down on to your shoulder to site accuratly?

The version I use is : 
1) Make a stick length the same as from your clenched fist to your eye.
2) Hold stick exactly in the middle
3) Sight top of stick to top of tree and bottom of stick to bottom( or felling point).
4) where you stand is where it lays.

Time we got a Clinometer hey Spider?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 3, 2002)

Hmm i've wondered about that error, nice adjustment maybe, will have to try that some.

But, how do you make arm longer so it is equal to fist to eye measurement of rake? i beleive as i understand it both legs of isoscles (equal legged, non-scalene according to Euclid) triangle must be equal.

i beleive the clinometer can be used, because it can adjust and work; without the fixed angles (45/45/90). But, i don't beleive you end up standing at the end of the lay; but rather gives a measurement, that you would then have to use to measure out from the trunk to calculate the lay. That would take extra move, and more for calculating the topping cut point to put that baby to rest in the open box (ie. safe laying area).


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 4, 2002)

TS 
In my version it is the eye to top-of-stick and eye to bottom- of-stick lines that are equidistant creating a isoseleses triangle......sorry will be back have to go to church.......cia


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 5, 2002)

When you grab the stick to set up the site don't use your eye as the "zero" point. Put the stick out to your side and measure to your jaw bone. the same distance but you don't have to worry about getting poked in the eye. Learned that from Tim Ard.

You can use the same projection trick to lay out the whole "shadow" of the tree. I did that one time when I had a side limb that needed to miss another tree in the fall line.

Tim Ard makes a nice, pocket sized, tool for siting trees. http://www.forestapps.com/
or use Forestapps in a search engine.

Tom


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 5, 2002)

I have been scratching my head over the math on the eye/jaw to fist one.....and it is not simple
The crutial things are:
that the distance out from the observer must be equal to 
the length of the stick/sighting tool
AND
The stick/sighting tool must be held vertical.

I did some scale drawings ......it works .....can anyone explain the math to me??????


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## Rob Murphy (Aug 5, 2002)

Cool tool Tom

BUT it doesnt really explain the math.....if you think about it for both sides of the sight lines to be equidistant the observer would be standing half the height of the tree above the ground.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 5, 2002)

Well, i described it as i saw it in old NAA cartoon (i beleive) plus a mixture of patchy geometry. But ya guys got me thinking, guess gonna have to do some experiments on that one!

Strictly in the geometry part (math?); i would beleive that the 90 degree angle (arm parallell with ground, stick plumbobbing vertical) and equal legs of triangle on either side of 90 would make the isosoles/ right triangle that would be the root or any method i think. Have queried over the sighting eye not being at apex, as allowable error before, but have had very good luck with this; so told it as i (remember) learning it.

Hmmmmmmmmmm; where's Joe?!!!!!!!!! Like i mentioned before; i ask him some of the math stuff that gets beyond me!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 6, 2002)

One guy didn't show up today, we all had too much sun yesterday; so as it became to hot to be cutting out our own shade we went to saw cleaning etc.

So i set some lines to a plumbed telephone pole, got a 45/45/90 with roofing square, bubble level, post, got to use my PHD (post hole digger).

It seems that Tom's way is best (to jawbone) most accurate by this measure; we found a user variable though- sighting over top of stick or next to the top of it (rake). 2nd place would go to under the armpit; but not sighting over the top of rake/stick,but next to the top of rake.

Tom's jawbone example came up most correct, under armpit gave some leeway for error, to eye in our trials came too close. i think to armpit is 45/45/90 most correctly, but then you would have to have eyes at apex of angles (armpit) to site. Tom's way seemed to correct for that error.

Very good lesson!

i picked this up from an NAA cartoon (then reasoned the math behind it) long ago, so Tom has improved on them! Roughly the error to armpit is about 5% forgiveness; perhaps that was purposeful on their part!

Will have to adjust my drawing to reflect that!


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Hi Spydie.
I wouldn't worry yourself about triangulation and silly things like that. All you need to know is that the average tree around the Great Lakes region is 90 ft. tall, but that's in the forest. So when your on somebodies front lawn simply count off at least 33 paces and your good to go. Or just do what I do and see how close you can come to your camera!  
John


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2005)

Note the woodrat retreiving his camera.:blob1:
John
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27845&stc=1


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## KentuckySawyer (Oct 30, 2005)

Rob Murphy said:


> Wouldnt you have to roll your head down on to your shoulder to site accuratly?




Or lift your fist a little.

I use this method a lot, and get good results. Some of us make bets on were the tip will land. See of you can drive a stick into the ground like that.


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## BoesTreeService (Oct 30, 2005)

This is the method I have been using to determine safe distance for dropping a tree, someone let me know if there are any faults with this method. Im not a math expert, so I dont know any principals its based on, it just made sense to me. So far it has seemed to work okay, but I've never thought to measure it all out after the fall. I drew the picture with Microsoft Word, I dont know if it will post or not.


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## rbtree (Oct 30, 2005)

Here's a link to Tim Ard's tool, which would be nice to have..As well as making it easy to determine tree height, it also allows one to determine how much wedge lift will be needed to fell a tree. Variables are tree height, trunk width at felling point, and back lean, if any..

http://www.forestapps.com/images/csinfo.pdf


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 30, 2005)

Boes,

That's a clever system.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 30, 2005)

Pretty clever, and not a mess working within metric instead of English units. but an extra step, to then measure the lay compared to rake?

Lots of times the triangulating is just to see/ 2nd guess when i can stop cutting before descending and felling tree into small yard etc.

i've also used the triangulating in reverse by: walking off the available small landing zone; then setting up rake per Tom's adjusted model, and ~calculating where to take successive topping cuts. Then get in tree, and top it down sequentially, filling small box/safetyzone to capacity with about every shot, for most efficient use of that space; with extra confidance due to the measuring.


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