# Design student developing new forestry product



## lewuk (Apr 3, 2010)

Hello everybody. I am eager to hear your ideas and suggestions for a new product I am developing. I am a Product Design student at Nottingham Trent University in the UK. Please give me your experiences of the problem, any methods you use currently, exactly what equipment you use, and suggestions for the design. Also please say how commercially successful such a product might be.

Even from my relatively limited experience in forestry, I identified a problem in having to carry felling equipment on foot from the vehicle to the site of work, when the site is some distance from a track. 

So my brief was to design a container that would help carry the necessary tools. The device can also provide a means of keeping track of tools.The product would have to be lightweight, relatively inexpensive, and durable. It would be used for smaller scale woodland management tasks rather than commercial logging. 

I have produced several concepts already but would like your comments first. I'd like to get your feedback on those designs.

Thank you,
Lewis


----------



## TheP1RATE (Apr 3, 2010)

lewuk said:


> Hello everybody. I am eager to hear your ideas and suggestions for a new product I am developing. I am a Product Design student at Nottingham Trent University in the UK. Please give me your experiences of the problem, any methods you use currently, exactly what equipment you use, and suggestions for the design. Also please say how commercially successful such a product might be.
> 
> Even from my relatively limited experience in forestry, I identified a problem in having to carry felling equipment on foot from the vehicle to the site of work, when the site is some distance from a track.
> 
> ...



allot of the guys on here already have some kind of container or sled type device for doing what your talking about.
so your design is not really new.
plus its not really that hard of a thing to design really, 
a container that you can slipe along the ground.

now if you could design one that hovers about a foot or so of the ground, so there's no drag at all and its easy as pie to pull along, also, i don't like to get ahead of myself, but perhaps a mechanical arm that could lift the wood up onto the hover sled.

if you could do something along those lines then i think you could be onto something.

or if anyone has to much trouble carrying stuff, i have the solution ..
how about a donkey:deadhorse:, there cheap and they,ll carry your tools all day for a carrot. or if that's not enough to carry all your stuff get the donkey and a sled and tie the sled to the donkey. 

there you go i have solved the problem, you don't have to design anything now, ...............unless a donkey sled with a mechanical arm like i mentioned earlier, hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm now there's an invention.

if you do design that, remember i gave you the idea and you will have to pay me royalties 
:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Billy_Bob (Apr 3, 2010)

Measuring!

How much wood is in that tree?

How high is that tree?

Where to cut that log into sections for the log truck?

Where to cut a log for firewood?

Etc.

Here is a search for the words tree measuring which may give you some ideas of how it is done now...
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source...=g4g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=ca6b5a4f84435186


----------



## Billy_Bob (Apr 3, 2010)

2nd idea...

Tree identification!

What kind of tree is that?

What kind of wood is that?

It would be nice to point a gizmo at a tree and have it tell you what kind of tree it was...

Let's see...
Fingerprint type technology used instead to identify tree leaves?

Color sensor...
http://www.parallax.com/Store/Senso...efault.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName

Various sensors...
http://www.motionnet.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?a=cat&no=4373

Maybe laser or microwave/radar to measure bark/wood/densities?

Spectrophotometry...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrophotometer


----------



## redprospector (Apr 3, 2010)

lewuk said:


> So my brief was to design a container that would help carry the necessary tools. The device can also provide a means of keeping track of tools.The product would have to be lightweight, relatively inexpensive, and durable. It would be used for smaller scale woodland management tasks rather than commercial logging.
> 
> I have produced several concepts already but would like your comments first. I'd like to get your feedback on those designs.
> 
> ...



Sounds a lot like a wheel barrow. 

Really though, keep thinking you'll come up with something. If it weren't for people trying to figure out a better way, we'd all be still skidding logs with mules, and cutting with cross cut's and axes. 

Andy


----------



## ryan_marine (Apr 3, 2010)

It is already out there. It is called am Marine Corps A.L.I.C.E. Pack. When you think that it is full let me know. I will show you that you still have room left. I also recomend that it has the frame on. Mine will carry 3 gallons of saw gas, 2 gallons of bar oil, and still have enough room for a 12"x12"x12" cooler for lunch. Can strap 2 660 stihl chain saws with 36" bars. Hold every tool to fix saw in the woods. At least 8 chains. I know when I went to Iraq my pack weighed in at just under 150#.

Ray


----------



## mile9socounty (Apr 4, 2010)

ryan_marine said:


> It is already out there. It is called am Marine Corps A.L.I.C.E. Pack. When you think that it is full let me know. I will show you that you still have room left. I also recomend that it has the frame on. Mine will carry 3 gallons of saw gas, 2 gallons of bar oil, and still have enough room for a 12"x12"x12" cooler for lunch. Can strap 2 660 stihl chain saws with 36" bars. Hold every tool to fix saw in the woods. At least 8 chains. I know when I went to Iraq my pack weighed in at just under 150#.
> 
> Ray



Ray. You took the exact words out of my mouth. I use my old A.L.I.C.E. Pack as well. Rep you for that one bud.


----------



## joesawer (Apr 4, 2010)

A small back pack and a sturdy belt carry all I need for a whole day. My saw gas and oil are tied together and slung over my shoulder or saw bar.


----------



## madhatte (Apr 4, 2010)

I got a few thingamajigs and doohickeys. All told, it's gonna be hard to beat my setup... as far as I'm concerned. My duct-tape-and-bailing-wire atrocity is comfy as all-get-out. 

Meanwhile, The US Forest Service has been pondering such issues for awhile, as have some commercial outfits.

I'm not trying to discourage you, not by a long shot -- I'm just trying to point out that, by and large, folks who work in the woods figure things out pretty quickly. Also, we've been known to resist change.

Just sayin'.


----------



## joesawer (Apr 4, 2010)

madhatte said:


> I got a few thingamajigs and doohickeys. All told, it's gonna be hard to beat my setup... as far as I'm concerned. My duct-tape-and-bailing-wire atrocity is comfy as all-get-out.
> 
> Meanwhile, The US Forest Service has been pondering such issues for awhile, as have some commercial outfits.
> 
> ...




I am all for something lighter, simpler and more convenient. 
Like you say, there has been a huge amount of research and development in this area that he thinks is new.
Good luck.


----------



## lewuk (Apr 4, 2010)

Thanks for all your input. Well most of you anyway! I understand what you guys are saying. It's all very helpful.

I realise that people have found their own ingenious ways to carry tools but I haven't found an ideal solution that is specifically for foresters. Most carrying cases/bags are just for the saw and maybe a few tools and oil. But there is other equipment to carry too, like lunch, waterproofs, first aid, breaker bar, fuel, sledge hammer, wedges etc.

I found that a wheelbarrow was unstable across rough terrain and it's not exactly compact for putting it in a vehicle. Most of the time it isn't possible to slide something along the ground because of roots and brash. 

Most of the people I have heard from operate differently from the market I'm aiming at. Seems like the lightweight canvas rucksack is ideal for moving over longer distances, but I am concentrating on smaller scale woodland management tasks. This may be line thinning in areas a little way off the vehicle track.

My research amongst fellow foresters favours a more rugged plastic container. It would be purpose-built for carrying the necessary tools, and would have features like a seat, compartment for valuable items and a flat surface for saw maintenance. Obviously it would still need to be as inexpensive as possible and not be too heavy. Also whether it is pulled/pushed along, carried on the back or infront etc.

Please keep your suggestions coming because it is so important to get feedback from potential users.

Lewis


----------



## demographic (Apr 4, 2010)

Billy_Bob said:


> 2nd idea...
> 
> Tree identification!
> 
> ...



I've been told theres a programme for the iPhone called TreeID for tree identification but as i don't carry one of those massive slabs of phone about in my pocket i've never tried it.

Maybe I'll have a go if a Java based application comes out that goes on a more normal sized phone.
Till then I'll just make do with my little Collins Gem Book in my back pocket.


----------



## fmaglin (Apr 4, 2010)

ryan_marine said:


> It is already out there. It is called am Marine Corps A.L.I.C.E. Pack. When you think that it is full let me know. I will show you that you still have room left. I also recomend that it has the frame on. Mine will carry 3 gallons of saw gas, 2 gallons of bar oil, and still have enough room for a 12"x12"x12" cooler for lunch. Can strap 2 660 stihl chain saws with 36" bars. Hold every tool to fix saw in the woods. At least 8 chains. I know when I went to Iraq my pack weighed in at just under 150#.
> 
> Ray


How's it goin Ray? Can you post a picture of that pack? I'd like to see it.


----------



## Rudedog (Apr 4, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> How's it goin Ray? Can you post a picture of that pack? I'd like to see it.



ALICE is just a fancy acronym for an olive drab Kelty backpack. I was not a particular fan of them. They did work well if you used the load strap around your hip and balanced the load well. You'll get more info from hippy magazines/websites than you would if you looked for it on any USMC website.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_gear_alice.php


----------



## hammerlogging (Apr 4, 2010)

I hope you do come up with something useful. I think you need to identify where the need is at, and get a little better understanding of the operations out there. I think you'd benefit greatly by getting out on some active job sites to identify where the need is for a product.

smaller woodlot mgmt.? The way I see it is you must be addressing the felling where the extraction system (i.e. skidder, dozer, forwarder, whatever) has not opened it up yet forcing a hike in for the fallers. The longest )and steepest) hikes we have is cutting for a big yarder or a helicopter. Cause if the machine can get there, whatever is pulling the wood out, then it can tote whatever you or it needs. But us fallers can have a heck of a hike sometimes, although not so much on small woodlot jobs.

Pack animal is definately the first thing that comes to mind. 4 wheelers have there place. and side by sides. and toyota pickups. I know a faller with a heck of a little dog that helps him a little. I suppose theres some hooktenders out there that would like something to make toting blocks easier, but they have pimps for that..... but if its super steep and deep, its a long tough walk. But think about it, we can leave our saw, entire tool belt, felling axe, and extra gas and water down in that hole each night (well hidden) so all we're carring is more water, gas and oil, and food and all in our backpack.

Go watch some jobs.


----------



## ryan_marine (Apr 4, 2010)

fmaglin said:


> How's it goin Ray? Can you post a picture of that pack? I'd like to see it.



I have not packed it for a while. But if you want you can stop by and I will show it too you. I also have a brand new M.O.L.L.Y. Pack. I have not heard anything good about them. So I have not tried it. They hold about 1/3 more gear.

Ray


----------



## fmaglin (Apr 4, 2010)

ryan_marine said:


> I have not packed it for a while. But if you want you can stop by and I will show it too you. I also have a brand new M.O.L.L.Y. Pack. I have not heard anything good about them. So I have not tried it. They hold about 1/3 more gear.
> 
> Ray


Rudedog posted a link that shows a pretty good illustration. I carry a regular backpack that holds my necessary tools, spare chain, extra gloves, rain gear, lunch, drinks, and most importantly, my first aid kit. Working alone most of the time my first aid kit is a priority.


----------



## joesawer (Apr 4, 2010)

lewuk said:


> Thanks for all your input. Well most of you anyway! I understand what you guys are saying. It's all very helpful.
> 
> I realise that people have found their own ingenious ways to carry tools but I haven't found an ideal solution that is specifically for foresters. Most carrying cases/bags are just for the saw and maybe a few tools and oil. But there is other equipment to carry too, like lunch, waterproofs, first aid, breaker bar, fuel, sledge hammer, wedges etc.
> 
> ...





One thing about working in the woods is not carrying anything thing that is not essential.
What on earth are you doing with a sledge hammer and a breaker bar in the woods. And a seat and work bench are not something I intend to carry around much. What is next an anvil and vice to go with the sledge hammer and breaker bar?
You need a saw, gas and and oil for it. Water, food and first aid kit for you. But they don't need to be carried in the same container.
An ax and wedges and tape need to be on your body. That means a good belt.
How much stuff to you intend to carry and over what kind of terrain?
A large ruck sack or back back will carry more than I can.
Have you seen the five gallon bucket organizers they sell for carpenters?
Or the rough terrain game toters made with a bicycle wheel?


----------



## hammerlogging (Apr 5, 2010)

joesawyer, thats pretty much what I was thinking


----------



## Gologit (Apr 5, 2010)

Yup...keep it light, keep it simple. Whatever you're carrying, even just the basic stuff, is twice as heavy at the end of the day.


----------



## slowp (Apr 5, 2010)

Perhaps a table for lunch?

I often end up running after the rigging crew up or down the hill. They pack the coils of line over their shoulders, the block is flung over a shoulder and held with the other arm...it looks very awkward. I've asked why nobody has come up with a pack that would make it easier on their bodies for carrying that gear. The answer I get is that they need to be able to fling it away when they take a tumble. 

Sometimes they are packing it through the fell and buck, sometimes they've found a way through a leave strip without fell and buck on the ground.


----------



## treedogg (Apr 11, 2010)

da kine makes a backpack that holds a saw...never tried it but i have been satisfied with all their backpacks that i have owned. at a certain point i would rather make two trips that haul anywhere near 150lbs. up or down.....


----------



## madhatte (Apr 11, 2010)

I have one of these:







but I've never worn it. I'll report at the end of this fire season how useful it proved to be. I have it set up a bit differently than is pictured. One thing i noticed immediately was that I can't just whip a saw off my back and slap it home when I'm done with it; rather, the pack resign requires that I take the whole mess off to load/unload. I'm not sure that's OK. However, the bar is held far enough back from my head that I couldn't cut myself with this rig if I tried. 

No, I didn't spend any of my own money on this thing. I didn't spend any of YOURS, either. I'm a Fed, yes, but my paycheck comes from 100% non-appropriated funds. We pay our own salaries through timber sales.


----------



## dingeryote (Apr 11, 2010)

madhatte said:


> I have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a neat looking rig, but the bar is in a bad place for sure.

More like a "De-scalpinator" than a pack.

Be carefull with that rig if ya run it... and keep some butterflys in your Firt aid kit. One quick drop to your butt to slide down a bank, or wrong move climbing over a log and BAM!!! 

The weight seems all wrong too. 
Wierd kit.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## madhatte (Apr 11, 2010)

Bar isn't a worry at all -- the flat part of the pack against the back is semirigid poly corrugate, and there's a 3"x3"x3" foam block holding the bar even farther from the head. I tried and couldn't even touch the brim of my helmet with the bar, no matter how hard I thrashed my head. You're welcome, True North, for the product testing and whiplash I have endured on your behalf. 

The weight is perfect: all on the waist, with quick-adjusts to put some percentage on the shoulders. For the hour or so I carried the thing, it seemed very comfortable. 

Downside is the same: it needs to be dropped to the ground to put the saw on or take it off. Also, the semirigid back of the pack is not comfortable without the weight of the saw to pull it away from the body and allow air movement. 

I have my line gear set up so that all of my instruments are hung from a carabiner. Usually, I'm not more than 500m from my truck, so a big pack isn't necessary. When I switch from my normal Spyder Gear to this saw pack, I will only need to move the carabiner and the fire shelter. I'm not sure this would be at all practical for a Hotshot, but it's A-OK for an Engine Slug like myself.


----------



## catbuster (Apr 11, 2010)

madhatte said:


> I have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wouldn't it be more practical to have the saw on your back right corner,with everything else on the back left? That way,you could pull out the saw way easier and still get to your stuff?


----------



## slowp (Apr 11, 2010)

madhatte said:


> I have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The model is too clean. Way too clean. Even his gloves!


----------



## madhatte (Apr 11, 2010)

catbuster said:


> Wouldn't it be more practical to have the saw on your back right corner,with everything else on the back left? That way,you could pull out the saw way easier and still get to your stuff?



I'd have to approach hillsides from the right, but it just might work. I'd cartwheel right down the hill if I approached any kind of slope from the left!

@SlowP: That was the first thing I noticed as well. I can't keep my green-and-yellows anything at all like clean, and I like to wash them long before they can stand and walk on their own.


----------



## lostcoastland (Apr 11, 2010)

whoa..Wheres the scabbard..that just looks obviously dangerous and the teeth of the saw would hook on brush..nice to be hands free though..they should have more storage that goes overtop of the saw and looks like you cant use a full wrap handle but o well..looks kinda nice not lugging a saw on your shoulder or carrying it..4 wheelers are my favorite for carrying your stuff around..the old honda 300's are small light and dependable as all hell


----------



## madhatte (Apr 11, 2010)

Carries a full-wrap just fine. You're right about the brush -- I imagine that will be a problem. Don't need a scabbard -- it's pinned down pretty well at the top of the pack. I usually just split old 2 1/2" hose for scabbards anyway, so if I get nervous, that's what I'll do.


----------



## lostcoastland (Apr 11, 2010)

you could also take the bar off the powerhead and slip it in the frame for extra sleekness


----------

