# GPS Mapping programs....need one.



## Oldtimer (Dec 26, 2011)

I need to invest in a quality GPS mapping setup. I need to be able to walk woodlot boundary lines, then be able to print out USGS topo maps with the lot lines overlaid on them.

What do the pros use?


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## DavdH (Dec 26, 2011)

Garmin


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## BrokenToys (Dec 26, 2011)

I use MapInfo 9.x (display) and a Trimble GeoXT (plotting). Geospatial Engineer is my 7 to 5 weekly job.


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## AndyB89 (Dec 26, 2011)

GIS , Geographical Information System. I don't know how what your budget is, but i learned this program in college. The program has overlapping abilities, boundary lines, ect. The program also has a hand held GPS unit that you can log in points ( ie trees). Hope this helps...


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## MtnHermit (Dec 26, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I need to invest in a quality GPS mapping setup. I need to be able to walk woodlot boundary lines, then be able to print out USGS topo maps with the lot lines overlaid on them.



What state? What's your budget?


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## Oldtimer (Dec 27, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> What state? What's your budget?



New Hampshire. Budget = $500-$700 but cheaper is always a plus. 

Thanks for the replies everyone.


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## MtnHermit (Dec 27, 2011)

*Cheap start, FREE:*

Download Garmin Training Center (Install into Win PC, not Mac), then MapSource (Install). You don't need TC after you install MS.
Google for a NH topo map to install into MS
Take your Garmin, even your car Nuvi will work, go to each property corner and record a waypoint.
Upload the waypoints into MS
You can use MS to connect the dots and see the property in topo map context.


*More Expensive*

Purchase a copy, free trial avail, of Global Mapper ~$400, it will load any GIS file available
Load your waypoints into GM
Download 24K topos from the USGS, free, as bitmaps directly from within GM
See your property on top of topo
Print, save to shapefile, etc in GM


*Much More Expensive, Budget Buster*

Buy a Trimble to more accurately record waypoints


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## madhatte (Dec 27, 2011)

Best-case: pro-grade GPS unit with pro-grade software. I can offer some detailed advice there if you're interested.

Next best-case: semi-pro hardware and software. I kind of like the Garmin Rino units for this as you can actually get datasets for them such as USGS quads or National Geographic software or the like. Priced pretty reasonably.

Bare-minimum: a laptop with a GPS receiver connected and some open-source software like Google Maps installed. You'll need to download the data you need ahead of time, the receiver will keep you on a leash, and the laptop is fragile and cumbersome in the woods. It'll work, though, and I've mapped that way before, but I don't recommend it.

Another option may be a smartphone with GIS/GPS software. Windows Mobile phones will run ArcPad, so that might actually be a very good solution, depending on your needs.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 27, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Another option may be a smartphone with GIS/GPS software. Windows Mobile phones will run ArcPad, so that might actually be a very good solution, depending on your needs.



Madhatte, the GPS in my particular smartphone will often lose signal if you so much as look at it wrong. I wouldn't consider it an option. I suspect many will be the same way. You just can't pack all the goodies into a pocket package, and expect good out of it.

Oldtimer, if you've got a fertilizer business nearby, they likely have a nice setup on an ATV for grid soil sampling and would likely run the borders for ya for not much money this time of year. You oughta see the stuff a modern farmer can pull up on a map these days, variable rate seeding and fertilizing, yeild mapping, field work done with auto steer to less than an inch error from pass to pass, really neat stuff. Trimble, mentioned above is one of the big players in ag.


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## Oldtimer (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks all. I have some thinking to do now.


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## madhatte (Dec 27, 2011)

Steve NW WI said:


> Madhatte, the GPS in my particular smartphone will often lose signal if you so much as look at it wrong. I wouldn't consider it an option. I suspect many will be the same way. You just can't pack all the goodies into a pocket package, and expect good out of it.



Heh. Welcome to GPS. Even the best of 'em don't work worth a crap under a forest canopy. Back in the day (ca 1996) we'd run an antenna up a 15-m fiberglass lineman's pole with coax cable dangling down to the ground; the weight of the thing made it not stay anywhere near centered above a point. What we'd do was swing it through an arc from one relaxed position to another, and as the antenna swung through the approximate apex of the arc, we'd collect data. For every post-processed data point, we probably took 15-20 swings. 

Nowadays, the best way to handle this problem is to open and close all traverses with good points taken in clear view of the sky, even if the points are not on the transect itself. This way you can correct the traverse data to known good points at the beginning and end. Some software is good at this sort of jerry-rigging and some isn't. In the field, it's always a balance between speed and accuracy. So far, I have never had both. I don't know how many hours I've wasted standing there like an idiot, GPS unit in hand, waiting for the satellites to line up so that I can move to the next point. There are usually very good times of day for data collection and very bad times; these will vary from location to location and from season to season. 

GPS is a great tool, but it is most certainly NOT without limitations.


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## 2yb3 (Dec 27, 2011)

and heres the guy who does this for a living and cant even remember the name of the programs my buddy/party chief uses, i just use the trimble r8/rtk plot my lines and he does the printing out stuff


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## madhatte (Jan 4, 2012)

Just found this file while looking for something related. It has a LOT of very field-useful information for making raw GPS data into finished maps.


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## Oldtimer (Jan 4, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Just found this file while looking for something related. It has a LOT of very field-useful information for making raw GPS data into finished maps.



Thanks....too bad for me that is so beyond my understanding that it might as well be Sanskrit hieroglyphs.


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## madhatte (Jan 4, 2012)

P'raps we can approach this from the opposite direction: you find a hardware/software combination you are comfortable using, and we'll see if we can help make it do what you want it to?


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## Isna (Jan 4, 2012)

BrokenToys said:


> I use MapInfo 9.x (display) and a Trimble GeoXT (plotting). Geospatial Engineer is my 7 to 5 weekly job.



+1


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## Oldtimer (Jan 4, 2012)

A GPS in my phone with a Windows topo map program to download a track into would be perfect.

I don't want to launch and track the space shuttle. I want to print out an 8-1/2" x 11" topo map with yellow lot lines on it that are within maybe 5 feet of accurate. I want this _more for my landowners to get their head around the job I propose_ than for my own use.

Where have the days of simple electronic devices gone? These days the simplest device has 1000 different uses.


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## lfnh (Jan 4, 2012)

Thought some before posting at the risk of aiding and abetting confusion on this topic.
Sure hope it doesn't. But if so, Mods feel free to get the ole axe out.

Budget sometimes has other meanings and this is one of them. Part of the budget is cost of the equipment to get the position data. The other budget is what degree of accuracy is needed and the effort needed to get that accuracy. Turning on a GPS receiver and collecting data is one thing. Having confidence in the accuracy of the data and its limitations has a little more to it.

In this case something to consider in collecting GPS positions as the boundary line is walked, is the accuracy of the GPS data. Simply put a consumer grade receiver might produce positions accurate to 10-15 meters of true position horizontal, depending on many things (signal strength, GPS satellites in view, signal deflection).
This position accuracy can be improved several ways: by collecting data when gps satellites are in best sky position for your area; augmenting the receiver GPS signals with differential correction signals from a beacon in real time; and/or correcting your receiver positions after collection by post processing the position data with software (last is not trivial and not cheap).

Realtime differential corrected positions can improve position accuracy to 3 meters (cm in more expensive equipment). The two 'free' sources of real time differential correction signals are the Coast Guard (DGPS) and the FAA (WAAS). Note there are other private DGPS services that a paid subscription based (John Deere AG Starfire is one example mentioned). Private corrections are not cheap.
Corrected vs uncorrected receiver positions can be verified by locating an NGS benchmark and standing on it with a receiver. Comparing the NGS position with that of the receiver's uncorrected and corrected positions will give a good, quick sense of the receiver's accuracy at that time with that set of GPS satellites in view.

Coast Guard DGPS are radio beacon signals and usually good to correct positions down to 3 meters. DGPS signal reception is handled by a separate receiver (typical) or by builtin receiver in the more expensive GPS units. In any case, the GPS unit will automatically monitor and apply corrections to your positions in real time. Signal coverage for the US is shown on Coast Guard online maps and has improved a lot since the 90's. Line of sight to the Coast Guard beacons is not necessary to receive the signals and are less affected by terrain or obstructions. However, as Madhatte said, GPS satellite position signals can be compromised by tree canopy. Conifers are the biggest PITA. Hardwoods less so when bare of leaves.

WAAS, on the otherhand, is satellite based correction signals and can provide position accuracy to under 3 meters. These signals are handled by nearly all the GPS receivers directly without additional equipment. The WAAS signals are line of sight to the satellites low on the horizion and may easily be disrupted by terrain, trees, etc. These signals are more appropriate for air navigation or open ground navigation. However, it may work for your area and application. Just be aware of possible limitations.

Given your budget it might be worth looking for GPS receivers that are out of the box ready to receive WAAS and Coast Guard DGPS correction data. At least the capability is there if you need the enhanced position accuracy.

Again, if walking a boundary line once with good GPS signals and a relatively bare canopy and then plot the positions on a topo map with good confidence they are close to true positions, differential corrected positions are essential, ime. 
Might have some folks in the state extension service or USDA FSA office that could be of value in helping with practical use of equipment in your area for your application. Maybe someone local that maps snowmobile trails would be worth chasing down. They might have some practical woods experience with GPS receivers and mapping within your budget that could save a lot time and money. Maybe even offer a chance to see a unit in action under a forest canopy.

Getting accurate position data reliably, as simply as possible, in one walk though is 99% of the battle. Exporting the position data and plotting it on a digital topo is icing on the corks. Just a thought.

Hope this makes some sense.


btw, 20 years ago it was a lot harder, and insanely expensive, believe me.


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## madhatte (Jan 4, 2012)

lfnh said:


> btw, 20 years ago it was a lot harder, and insanely expensive, believe me.



I still have dents in my noggin from the damned antenna.


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## lfnh (Jan 4, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I still have dents in my noggin from the damned antenna.



lol, oh yeah know how that felt. Huge. probly why the Air Force restarted project Blue Book.

bad almanacs, corrupt ephemeris. Weekend shutdowns without warning.
Campfire stories.


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## madhatte (Jan 4, 2012)

And software? What software? We whistled Hayes code at 100 baud. 

Watch: "A T Z"

(lemme catch my breath real quick)

"A T D T"

Aw, ferget it


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## lfnh (Jan 5, 2012)

that is an understatement
still laughing over that..thanks!


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2012)

'S awright!


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 5, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Heh. Welcome to GPS. Even the best of 'em don't work worth a crap under a forest canopy. GPS is a great tool, but it is most certainly NOT without limitations.



That certainly used to be true. However, I am quite impressed with the new Garmin Rino (650 or 655). Myself (just got a 655) and my two sons (each have 650's) have them; bought them for hunting really. But - have never once lost signal due to canopy (moose and deer hunting); and have full signal strength in concrete building (in basement with two floors above). (it had full signal in every building we took it in; so had to try it in concrete building to see; and so far have not been able to get it to loose signal - has come a LONG way from previous versions they had though).

So, based upon this I suspect other high end units also have much more sensitive receivers than they used to even 2 years ago. I do not consider myself an expert on the subject; but am now using the 655 in my business (it has a camera in it as well - although have not used that much yet). Can you loose signal; of course you can; but so far we have not lost it. I am anxious to wait until next summer and try when canopy is thicker (but based upon reception in basement I am thinking it will be ok). The lower end units (even the older Rino's) were not that great.


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## spanky1205 (Jan 5, 2012)

Here is a link to a website that has Imagry and quad maps for the entire U.S. for free. Maybe it will help.

Have you ever considered google earth?


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2012)

TreeClimber57 said:


> But - have never once lost signal due to canopy (moose and deer hunting); and have full signal strength in concrete building (in basement with two floors above).



I have and use a Garmin Rino 530. It's a good machine. However, notice that circle around your location arrow that gets bigger and smaller as you move? That's the unit's confidence level about your actual position. It averages near-misses when it doesn't have a signal. I trust the Rino to about 25 meters, and no less. It's an uncorrected signal at best, and at worst, a passable guess. That's not acceptable for forestry boundary work.


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## slowp (Jan 5, 2012)

There's always this. Some of us Dinosaurs are familiar with it. Not the respirator, scroll down to Redy Mapper.

BAP Equipment: Respirators


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## teatersroad (Jan 5, 2012)

Many pros use ESRI ARCGis and Arcpad for the handheld. Too much. You just need to be able to create shapefiles and import them. Quantum GIS is a very powerful freeware program you can use on your desktop. You still need the handheld mapping software to pick up your lot line shape file. GIS programs can be one hella cluster headache to work with. Get familiar with 'projections' then actually making stuff work. Many counties and states GIS websites for map layers. USGS does too. Gimme a bit and I'll post up some resources. Google Earth also has some capabilities you might find useful.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2012)

I've used QGIS; it's like Arc on training wheels. It's not a bad program at all, and if you need more functionality, it dovetails nicely with GRASS, which is also freeware.


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## teatersroad (Jan 5, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I've used QGIS; it's like Arc on training wheels. It's not a bad program at all, and if you need more functionality, it dovetails nicely with GRASS, which is also freeware.



I'm not familiar with the GRASS functionality. We mostly use our maps for field work, grants, and grant reporting.


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2012)

GRASS is really good for raster analysis. It's not as good as Arc for vector data. It's kind of big and bloated, and the interface isn't very intuitive, but if you really want to make sense of a lot of cells, it's the way to go.


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## teatersroad (Jan 5, 2012)

madhatte said:


> GRASS is really good for raster analysis. It's not as good as Arc for vector data. It's kind of big and bloated, and the interface isn't very intuitive, but if you really want to make sense of a lot of cells, it's the way to go.



So if I wanted a slope or soil or veg component analysis..I might try GRASS? Thanks. 

We do have one copy of Arc10 at work, it's on the fast computer- which sure ain't mine.


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## lfnh (Jan 5, 2012)

Trimble GEOEXPLORER 3 complete pkg and Trimble Beacon on Belt on bay.
Seems like a good setup for under 700 for mapping in that accuracy budget.
Pathfinder + CORS should get meter or better PP.

just a thought


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## madhatte (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh man the troubles I've had with Pathfinder. I wish it wasn't the best tool for the job. My biggest gripe is the way it strips attributes off of every export and renames each export generically, so I can't batch-correct or batch-export. perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but I can't find another way in the menus and the manual is silent on the subject. I've just gotten used to single exports and a moment in Catalog keeping things straight. Oh, and I REALLY like Arc 10. I can autohide most everything, and Catalog isn't a separate program. It's the best Arc yet. I remember the transition to 9.0 as painful; the transition to 10.0 has been the exact opposite. 

Teatersroad: try GRASS at home first. It's got quite a learning curve.


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## lfnh (Jan 6, 2012)

re pathfinder, aka well you know. a few choice ones come to mind, lol.

guess the point of throwing out the Explorer 3 (or like) was to show used commercial stuff capable of boundary line accuracy is out there and far better than consumer grade stuff for similar money. Probly more Trimble comm/pro stuff out there.
Something for the OP to ponder.


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2012)

I've seen the older GeoXM/XT units go for about $500 on the 'Bay. That's a lotta GPS unit for the dollar. Unfortunately, the software is still pretty expensive, even older versions. 

HOWEVER

There is an open-source GPS data collection program out there (it's still in Alpha so I won't call it out by name; PM me if you're interested in testing it) which does EXCELLENT work for free and corrects raw data from the NMEA stream mathematically by averaging a cloud of points rather than by using a differential correction. It even kicks out processed files as .shp! Again, there's a bit of a learning curve, but it's powerful stuff. That plus QGIS might be a good freeware software suite, even though it would still require a trip to the office to process field data.


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## teatersroad (Jan 6, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Teatersroad: try GRASS at home first. It's got quite a learning curve.




that's kinda funny..


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## lfnh (Jan 6, 2012)

Couple of additional thoughts regarding real time "correction" or "enhancement" of standard position service (CA) data. A subtle problem with WAAS is it can be tricky under field conditions to actually know when position accuracy has been enhanced unless the receiver has a user option to force it off or the receiver is able to monitor the integrity of the WAAS signal(s) and do something about it. Aviation naviagation and landing systems have that integrity monitoring (primary purpose of WASS).

CORS real time corrections using NTRIP servers and an internet connection seems to be moving forward (Calif, Oreg, Wash, Vermont) and may be a real boost to accuracy in the field. Hopefully, it won't turn into yet another dialing-for-dollars scam.That would be a shame.


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## madhatte (Jan 6, 2012)

teatersroad said:


> that's kinda funny..



Aw, you figured out my secret code.


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## BrokenToys (Jan 6, 2012)

Also for a quick and dirty road layout to use to put your points on you can pick up TIGER Shapefiles. It's all public domain so it's available by state/county. I use these a lot to get a landbase started.
I also been to a few ESRI roadshows and their product is top notch as well. My company went with PB MapInfo so that's what we're stuck with.


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