# What Tonnage splitter?



## CaseyForrest (Nov 6, 2005)

I live in Central MI. I will be starting to cut and split wood to make a little extra money this winter, but dont yet have a splitter. It is still up in the air as to wether or not Im going to buy one or build one. In any event, I have done my research and know that I will be using an 8 horse motor with a 16GPM 2 stage Barnes pump. Now.....There is quite a price difference between 3.5" to 5" cylinders, which will give me a tonnage of 20 to 27. I know most of what I will be splitting will be Red Oak, White Oak, Silver Maple, and other assorted woods. Do I NEED 27 tons, or can I get by with 20 knowing that some tight areas may have to be split with the saw beforehand?


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## Davidsinatree (Nov 6, 2005)

Caseyforest,
I own a 5HP 20 ton husky I picked up from tractor supply about 6 years.
I really wanted the 8HP 27 ton at the time but didnt want to spend another $400.

I am satisfied that I went with the smaller splitter....it does a great job.
With big dia wood if you split with the grain you will have no problem.
6 years into this splitter.....I do not regret my choice to go with the smaller one.
Good luck.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 6, 2005)

What type of wood do you split more of?


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## DanManofStihl (Nov 6, 2005)

I would go with the 27 ton I split alot of wood and it is great to have the extra power it will come in really handy. It will be well worth it if you dont have to pry off a stuck piece of wood. In the eternal scheme of things you will be glad you spent the extra money. I am glad I payed the extra money and put a honda motor on my log splitter now that it is broken in and has 56 hours on the meter it starts on the first pull. It was $300 more then the tecumseh but worth it in the long run. I have run a 20 ton splitter and a 24 ton and the 24 is a world of difference. Also be sure to get a vert horizontal That is the best hing since sliced bread my back loves that thing.


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## Locoweed (Nov 6, 2005)

I have a 21 ton MTD that I use for splitting Oak that does the job for me. I would avoid Tecumseh engines.


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## Davidsinatree (Nov 6, 2005)

I have 5HP on splitter and 7HP on ariens rear tine tiller. Both engines are Techumseh.....no problems at all. Have owned many Techumseh engines with very good luck. Whats wrong with them?


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## Locoweed (Nov 6, 2005)

I have a neighbor that is a small engine mechanic. I was just passing on his feelings about them.


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## yukiginger (Nov 7, 2005)

*Log splitter*

I recommend buying this one here:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=55258


It is reconditioned (although there is no mention on the site), and the fluid capacity is 2.5 gallons. Cylinder is 4.5" See the model here:


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=46155


It's a heck of a machine for the money. I just got one and it is splitting some large oak and locust rounds without any problem. Add a bigger motor later and a higher flow pump and you will probably get the tonnage up a little, but I am no expert on these things.

If it doesn't meet your needs turn around and sell it on an auction site for more than you paid (I kid you not - a White (MTD) 20 ton that was 15 years old just sold for $772 on ebay.

Just my opinion.

Mark


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## ms180man (Nov 7, 2005)

*$599 splitter*

The splitter looks awesome for the money if you could get one! I just called harbor freight and they said it is out of stock for 20 business days, that means the rest of November! The they said a truck item (which it is) is usually 2-4 weeks for shipping! That means you won't see it until X-mas or the beginning of January! What good is that? This is prime wood season! I need this thing NOW! Or within a reasonable time (1 week or 2 at the most).


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## yukiginger (Nov 7, 2005)

*How about the bigger models, then?*

Harborfreight has the 30 ton with 9hp Robin engine on sale for $1099. That's a good price.

Shipping is said to be a while, but they ship freight and from California to me in Central NY took 7 business days (my buddy picked it up at the freight terminal otherwise I wouldn't have it delivered to me until tomorrow or Wednesday).

Good luck. 

MarkG


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## 046 (Nov 7, 2005)

how much was shipping?


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## yukiginger (Nov 7, 2005)

*shipping*

Shipping to me (delivered to a residential address) was a grand total of $38.99. This was from CA to NY.

Pretty unbelievable, I think for an item on a pallet weighing close to 600 lbs.

MarkG


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 7, 2005)

Yeah, thanks for all the input. I have had no troubles with Tecumseh, B/S or Honda Engines, so what motor I use is not a big decision maker. I do know that simply putting a bigger engine and higher GPM pump will not raise you tonnage, you must increase the size of the cylinder, unless you raise your max working pressure from the norm of 2500 or 3000 psi. I would rather spend extra money on a frame that will take some abuse and allow upgrades when things break, which is why I want to build one. I can get ahold of all the steel for free, the tank, and a welder. Just not looking forward to scrounging that much. Lowes and Home Depot sell the same splitter under a different name, 27 ton, honda vert shaft 5.5 motor, Barnes 11 gpm pump and auto return on the cylinder for $1300.00. It is built VERY well, with the only weak spot I can see is the capacity of the hydraulic tank being either 17 or 31 pints, I dont remember.


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## eric_271 (Nov 7, 2005)

A 20 ton will work. A 34 ton with the 5 inch cylinder works better. What do you have in your wallet?


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 8, 2005)

Id like to keep it in my wallet! I know a 40 ton would work better than a 34 ton too, but thats overkill in my book.


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## Whiteindustries (Nov 8, 2005)

*I guess it all depends on how long you plan on doing this(Splitting)*



CaseyForrest said:


> Id like to keep it in my wallet! I know a 40 ton would work better than a 34 ton too, but thats overkill in my book.



If you are just doing this (splitting) for a hobby then buy a home owners model 5hp +-.The smaller machines are great for the four to five cord a year production but are not meant to be run hard.If a new bigger machine isnt in the budget try to find a clean used one rather than buying a new smaller machine.
I've been processing firewood with saw and splitter for over 14 years now(100 cord a year +-).The smallest machine I would consider if you plan on staying in the business would be a 8hp and 16 gpm pump,4 " piston.
Yes, Honda's are far superior to the other popular engines.You wont regret the extra cost of the Honda.I have gone threw two to three Briggs to One Honda,Honda was/is better on fuel ,quieter to run and easier to start for the most part.You might say well the Honda is twice the cost, if you want to waste your time running for replacement engines and installing them then buy all means go for the cheaper engine.Time is money and I have now switched both my splitters over to Honda's.
I do have a bit of a background in this as I was a service manager for a multi line dealership for over five years.
You may also want to consider if you may want to run a four way splitter head/wedge? I think a horizontal machine is the way to go.The Vertical/Horizontal machines that I have seen have the wedge on the piston, not allowing you to run a four way wedge.Maybe someone has seen a vertical machine that can run a four way wedge but I haven't yet.
Another investment is your saw(s),Talking with many loggers and firewood producers they are all pretty much on the same page in that a mid sized commercial saw will save you allot of time and money in the long run.I run a Jonsered 630super which is an old saw by todays standards ,approx 4.3 hp,I have a Husky 40 for limbing.My next saw will be something in the 5.0- 6.0 hp range,Dolmar 7900,Stihl 460,Husqvarna 372xp jump to mind.
Just my two cents,hope it helps as I have made some mistakes on the way.lol
Good Luck with your business.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the input. I agree that Honda Engines are by far the best out. I have a push mower thats 20 years old with a B/S motor and still runs, I have had good luck with all small engines I have come in contact with, but I also take care of them.
I have a 8 year old husky 36 with a 14" bar I use for limbing and cuts up to about 10". It handle anything I throw at it but knowing I need a bigger saw I got a Stihl MS310, put an 18" bar on it but may also get a 20" just to be safe.
Im leaning now towards building one. Ive got the beam, tank, and 4.5" cylinder with a 30" stroke. Just need 8 horse motor (I may go with 10 to be safe), 16 GPM pump, and valve and Im off to welding.


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 10, 2005)

I just picked up a 24 ton Northern hydraulic splitter for $500.00 bucks. It a very good splitter and has split everything I have thrown at it so far. Thats the good. The bad. Its a bit slow 13 sec. cycle time and is to low to the ground. That slight bend in the back makes for a very sore back after 1/2 a cord. I also blew the filter housing off. You could tell the filter had been hit by something in the past and that must have put a hair line fracture in the filter housing threads. A $13.00 part with new filter no big deal. I have been cutting wood with my son for a while and I have decided to go full time. Like everyone has said time is money but more importantly why work yourself to death. Get a splitter that has a 5x24x2 inch cylinder or if you can find it 2-1/2" or 3" rod (good luck there) a 22 GPM or Higher pump and at least a Honda electric start 13 HP motor. Go to a higher HP if you get a bigger pump. Your cycle time will be determined by the GPM and HP plus actual line pressure. The 5" cylinder will be slower than a 4" but if you are splitting oak then I believe the bigger cylinder will be best so up the HP and GPM pump for a faster cycle time.


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## eric_271 (Nov 10, 2005)

I dont know why splitters are built so low. I would rather pick the wood up a little higher then be bent over all day. Kills my back also. Thats the good thing about building your own, build it to a good working hight. I had a 5 inch cylinder built with a 2'' 3/8 rod at a local shop. I need to get back to work on that project. Its a 34 ton. Seems like all I want to do is play here lately.


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## keith c raymond (Nov 10, 2005)

Ive got a 25 ton from home depot that is made by mtd .works great, with a Briggs industrial 6.5 on it ,good unit.


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## postframer82 (Nov 10, 2005)

I myself am new to the splitting and have decided to build my own, It isn't really all that much cheaper than buying on considering the time and effort. I'm up to about $600. The engine Was given to me from my uncle, an 18 hp. twin B&G vert. I know it sounds like a big motor for a splitter, but I have it, It has electric start, but most importantly, I think it should have the power to maintain rpms when the ram hits the log. The mechanic that we take our heavy epuipment to for our polebarn buisness told me that when it comes to hydraulics, pressure is power. Knowing that, m houghs are tha he higher he rpms stay on the motor, The more pressure the pump will push, mainaning constant pressure to he ram for smooher, quicker splitting. I have also selected a 16 gpm barns pump to put on that after talking to a hydraulic tech. He had an equation that he put my engine into and came back with the recomendation of a 14 or 16 gpm pump. I wanted a little faster cycle time so went with a 16. I thought about a 22 gpm, but he said bad idea. I'd recomend to you that if your running a 8-10 hp, go with the 12 or 14 gpm. That will help the engine from working so hard to maintain its rpms which in turn keeps up the pressure.... those are my thoughts. If anybody knows otherwise please do correct me! I need to know for myself! Hope I could be of an assistance to ya. Oh, Keep your eyes open for a junk lawnmower with a decent motor in it. Its a cheaper way to get started (engine, battery, throttle, motor mount, etc.) with a bigger motor!


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## postframer82 (Nov 10, 2005)

Oh, also one more thing... That mechanic also told me that the bigger the cylinder diameter, the more power, but slower cylce times because it takes more fluid to fill it. I wanted to go with a 6" or 7" but didn't like the $ more them and decided to go with a 5"x28"x2" at northerntool.com for $220


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## Whiteindustries (Nov 10, 2005)

*A 16gpm with a 5" maybe slow.*



postframer82 said:


> Oh, also one more thing... That mechanic also told me that the bigger the cylinder diameter, the more power, but slower cylce times because it takes more fluid to fill it. I wanted to go with a 6" or 7" but didn't like the $ more them and decided to go with a 5"x28"x2" at northerntool.com for $220



I havent sat down with any formulas but I have been running 8hp with 16 gpm pumps for years and the engine has no problem keeping up rpms for the pump(Splitting big up to 30" dia 16"-18" oak).The pump will kick down to the slower stage buts thats about it.Engine doesnt change rpm just keeps running away.
If you are going to run a 5"piston I would recommend a 22gpm pump with all that horse power you have it will be wasted on a 16gpm pump.18hp and 22gpm is what you see on small processors as a setup NOT a 16gpm pump.
I am in the process of upgrading to a 13hp with 22gpm pump to get more speed out of my splitter.
I believe the pumps are constant flow once they hit a certain rpm so as long as the engine reaches that rpm or above the flow wouldnt change.
Just look around at the specs on the commercial splitters(Timberwolf,Rayco,big Northern), you wont see a high end splitter running a big motor and 16gpm pump.
Just my two cents.
http://www.timberwolfcorp.com/splitters/tw7/tw7.htm
http://www.raycomfg.com/Environmental/LS2526LogSplitter/LS2526LogSplitter.html
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...0&productId=200306949&R=200306949#productinfo
http://www.americanmsr.com/product-specs.htm


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 10, 2005)

Yeah..Postframer, with that 18 horse motor you can turn a 2 stage, 28 GPM pump with no problem. You friend is right if you arent using a two stage pump, single stage pumps need constant power. But a 2 stage pump will run full GPM at 650 psi, once you get over 650 psi it will kick down to 2.9 GPM up to 3000 psi, which is how you can get away with using a low HP motor and still get quick cycle times.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 10, 2005)

On another note, just bought a 27 ton splitter from Homey D. Its built well, has a honda motor, albeit only 5.5 horse, but can upgrade to 10 horse and 16 GPM pump when things break. The only immediate upgrade I will do is either add a cooler for the Hydro oil as its only got 3.5 gallons in reserve, or add another tank inline or cut the smaller one out and replace it with something in the order of 10 to 15 gallons.


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## eric_271 (Nov 10, 2005)

The last splitter I built I used a 4 or 4 1/2 inch cylinder with a 16 gpm pump. It was fast and had plenty of power to split osage orange and its harder then oak. I used more engine on it then I needed, a 14 hp kohler. I could set it just over idle and it split good with out pulling the motor down. At less then part throttle it ran the pump as fast as it would go and faster cycle time. With a 5 inch cylinder and a 16 gpm postframers cycle time will be slower then a 4 or 4 1/2 cylinder. That 5 inch cylinder will go noticeably faster with a 22 gpm pump.


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## postframer82 (Nov 10, 2005)

hey thanks for the points, I will definatly look into the 22 gpm then. You seem to have some experience. The tech that I talk to just seemed to have an equation, not ewperience with splitters I think your input seems more creditable. Thanks! Hey Caseyforest, I think that maybe you should consider disregarding my thoughts.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 11, 2005)

LOL....I dont disregard anything, if everyone was right all the time it would mean no one is wrong and hence give no one a reason to think! I still plan on building a heavier splitter, I already have half the parts I need. I now dont have to scramble to build one, I can take my time and build it heavy.


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 11, 2005)

Definatley go with the 22GPM pump. Also look into a 10 gallon (Minimum) hydraulic tank. That would give you about 12 gallons. Also get a 10 micron filter. If it were me I would go with as big a hydraulic reserve tank as possible. Say 20 gallons if you have the room. The valves also can be adjusted to get 2750 PSI but if you can find one get a 3,000 psi valve. 3/4"(minimum) inlets and outlets as well and try and avoid 90 degree turns (you may not be able to everywhere). For every 90 degree turn or elbow its like adding 15' to your hoses. Also keep your pump as low as possible in regards to your hyraulic tank. Most people think they have a 24 or 30 ton splitter. That was a cheap trick by the log splitter manufacturers. If your splitter is rated at 24 tons then its most likely a 15 to 18 ton splitter. I believe EYEINSTINE said this before, but that rating is for 3,000 psi across the entire system. 99% of all your log splitter valves (the handle you pull and push top operate splitter ram) come set at 2250 psi. Thats a 25% reduction in the log splitters rating. So if you have a 20 ton splitter its really a 15 ton and thats just with the valve figured in. Now figure all the 90 degree fittings and small hose diameters ect ect. Hydraulic fluid Temp. is another equation (thats the need for a large capacity reserve). All that plays a part. Hope this helped.


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 11, 2005)

Remember this. A commercail hydraulic system on anything has about (minimum) 3 gallons per GPM rating. Hydraulic systems get very hot so the larger the reserve the cooler the system stays. The exception is always log splitters. You dont have the room to put a 60 gallon reserve tank for your 20 gpm pump. The good thing is that the system operates outside which helps keep it cool (not much though) and doesnt go 24 hours a day. Still a minimum of 10 gallons is needed for any splitter (home owner use) and 20 gallons for commercail use. These are minimums.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 11, 2005)

I just got my spliiter and have been thinking of a way to increase the measely 3.5 gallon reserve. It is an MTD 27 ton from Home Depot. Im tossing around the idea of hacing a welding shop weld a tank just like the one thats on it now, but bigger. Not sure if any of you are familiar, but the hydraulic tanks is basically a piece of rectangular tube with ends welded on and wheel spindles welded to that. SO, my other thought is buy a 10 gallon tank and mount it under the tounge, and then plumb it inline with the stock one. Or....add a cooler over top of the engine, and let the engine draw air over it...what do you all think?>


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 11, 2005)

Instead of adding another tank and possible 2 more areas for leaks I would just replace that tank if easy to do so. Does your system have a filter? If not get one.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...ngId=-1&productId=12006&R=12006&issearch=4020

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...tDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=23548&R=23548

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTELargeImageView?rfno=23548&storeId=6970


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 11, 2005)

Your system should be holding about 5.5 gallons. IF the tank is 3.5 then there should be about 2 gallons in the cylinder and lines. I'm not sure how to modify that system. Check the hydraulic oil level after you run it for a few times. (check before start up and at end of each splitting session) :Eye:


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## postframer82 (Nov 12, 2005)

First of all I would like to thank you all for sharing Ideas. Its kind of a pain in the ... to think of everything by yourself or from freinds and family who don't really have any experience with what your trying to build. Second, I don't remember who it was that mentioned it, but someone said on another thread here a few weeks ago to use another I beam rotated to H and weld that to the underside of your splitting beam. Plug the ends and bottom drill some holes and hook up the pluming from there and you have a large Hyd. tank that is out of the way and has more surface area to help with the cooling. Oh, I have also decided to return the 16 gpm and bump it up to a 22 gpm, but can't quit afford to go all the way to a 28. Thanks!


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 12, 2005)

I am going to use a piece of heavy square tube as my beam for the splitter I am going to build. I will also add a 7" piece of flat stock 1/2" thick to the top to help stiffen and also give the wedge something slide and lock onto. I also got the suggestion to use the square tube as my hydro tank, but after thinking about it, you may have plenty of capacity, but run the risk of running the pump dry if you are at all on any incline. You MUST make sure your suction port always has oil to it. After much thought about it, even though it would be easier and take up less space to use the beam...Im leaning towards using a 20 gallon tank, as I can get it for free.


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## postframer82 (Nov 12, 2005)

That is a good point with the incline


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## Whiteindustries (Nov 13, 2005)

*Hydraulic parts*

Someone had mentioned Balieys Hydraulics above, below is their website, looks like a pretty good place.

http://www.baileynet.com

I am rebuilding one of my splitters ,It is an American MSR 25H.Had a 8hp 16gpm pump with a four way wedge,I am in the process of adding a 13hp with 22gpm 2 stage pump and a 15 gal tank.
I am sticking with the 4" cyl for now as it had plenty of power before, just trying to quicken it up for now.
I will be adding a log lift/table as time allows and maybe a hydraulically controlled wedge.
I am going to try and take the 8hp and 16gpm pump/tank and convert my chain conveyor from belt drive to Hydraulic drive.Just need to figure out what size hydraulic motor I need for that.


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## jokers (Nov 13, 2005)

CaseyForrest said:


> I also got the suggestion to use the square tube as my hydro tank, but after thinking about it, you may have plenty of capacity, but run the risk of running the pump dry if you are at all on any incline. You MUST make sure your suction port always has oil to it. After much thought about it, even though it would be easier and take up less space to use the beam...Im leaning towards using a 20 gallon tank, as I can get it for free.



If you are on enough of an incline to compromise net positive suction head(npsh) to the hydro pump, what are you doing to the engine`s oil pump, or worse yet an engine with a dip lubricator? I`ve seen many splitters incorporating some type of rectangular tube as an oil reservoir with no problems.

Russ


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## Wolfcsm (Nov 14, 2005)

If you have a Tractor Supply there, you might look at the ones they have available. I have used the smaller one quite a bit but bought the larger model. Most all of what I split is Oak and ranges in size from 6" to 36". I have never found a piece of wood that my splitter could not split or cut.

Hal


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 14, 2005)

Joker, rectangular, yes, but Im talking square tubing 4" x4" and 6' long, there would be a problem with suction at some point Im sure.


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## postframer82 (Nov 14, 2005)

I've been looking aroud for the best price on that 22 and 28 gpm pumps that you guys recomended me, any of you have a good Ideas for places to look for good prices, the only two that I've found online are Northern tool and Surpluscenter.com. My local TSC doesn't carry any that big.


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## WESCOMAN (Nov 14, 2005)

Try baileys for 2 stage pumps as well.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 15, 2005)

Im pretty sure Northern is going to be your best bet as far as price.


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## keith c raymond (Nov 15, 2005)

Ive got 5 gallons plus 1.5 qt.in my 25 ton model.


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## DanManofStihl (Nov 15, 2005)

My northern tool 24 ton takes 5 gallons of fluid I made a mistake when I changed it and over filled it what a mess. As soon as i ran it went everywhere. Becareful not to over fill it.


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## postframer82 (Nov 15, 2005)

WESCOMAN said:


> Try baileys for 2 stage pumps as well.


I tried the search (pumps) and it didn't give me any results for pumps, looked to me like they only carry cylinders


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## woodchop (Nov 15, 2005)

I build a 30 Ton horizontal splitter, 22 gallon pump, 5" x30" cylinder and loglift all from Northern. I split elm and oak. Email me if you need plans, I have them here somewhere.


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## Whiteindustries (Nov 15, 2005)

*Hello,Try this link. Pumps at Baileys*



postframer82 said:


> I tried the search (pumps) and it didn't give me any results for pumps, looked to me like they only carry cylinders



http://www.baileynet.com/links/catalog.pdf


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## ray benson (Nov 15, 2005)

Haldex 2 stage pumps - bottom of page 40 in the baileynet pdf catalog.


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## cord arrow (Nov 22, 2005)

*Ramsplitter*

i'd heard positive reviews of this splitter.
upon arrival i wasn't all that impressed.
however, it's proven it's worth.
this is the 20 ton, ramsplitter says it compares favorably to other's 27 ton units.
i'm not sure about that, but here it is making short work of some gnarly osage orange this afternoon.


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## Former Saw Builder (Nov 24, 2005)

*Cheap Log Splitter*

I bought a 22 ton splitter from TSC http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pcID=5&paID=1037&sonID=778&productID=14590 and it works fine for me they sell for 999.00 it has a B$S 6.5hp engine. My brother bought a 30 ton splitter from Harbor freight http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91840 with a Robin engine on it and it also works fine ( it uses a lot more gas splitting a cord of wood then mine does ) his only cost 1100.00

I think if I had it to do all over I would still buy the 22 ton model from TSC it is the same model that a local hardware store here rents out to people on a regular basis and they told me they hold up well... :angel:


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## DanManofStihl (Nov 24, 2005)

I love my 8 hp honda motor I run it at full power for 20 idle for 10 while I move more wood over to it then full power again. It burns 1.5 gallons in 4 hours at this cycle my other splitters with Briggs engines burn 1 gallon an hour. It saves a ton on a fuel bill and since it is so efficient I just let it idle and don't turn it off when I cut and move logs over to it. I don't think I could back to the other manufactors I might try Kohler though they are susposed to make some good ones.


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## MOE (Nov 25, 2005)

I'm building a hoz/vert right now. It will have new a 9 hp BS vangaurd, 16 gpm pump, 4.5X24" cyl 15 gallon tank and a plymouth voyager rear axle. It should cost $600-$700 but finding time to finnish it is the big problem.


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## Schultzz (Nov 30, 2005)

*Logsplitter*

I bought an Iron & Oak logsplitter from Ficht Supply. 26 ton vert/horiz, 9hp Honda, log cradle (very useful). It is built like a tank and what it doesn't split, it will shear including nasty gum trees. However, if you want a 4 or 6 way you will have to modify these wedges to use them as the spliiting wedge is located on the ram. 9 gallon hydraulic tank. I haven't found anything it wouldn't split yet.


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## CaseyForrest (Nov 30, 2005)

Ive seen that Iron & Oak splitter at my saw shop...nice machine, but $1900 for a 26 ton machine....ouch!


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