# Old vs New wood stove



## jreed (Jan 8, 2010)

I have an old Alaska Kodiak wood stove. My house is a 1500 sq ft ranch and the stove is in the basement. Would I benefit from purchasing a new wood stove? Are they significantly better?


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## aharris (Jan 8, 2010)

Trying to contribute here, love the site. My thoughts are that we need more details. I am unaware of any clear advantage to a new vs. old stove other than EPA requirements. Assuming they have the same dimensions, I'd go with old for nostalgic reasons!


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## aharris (Jan 8, 2010)

Maybe similar to a car EGA valve re-burning gasses? More heat?


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## Dok (Jan 8, 2010)

I can second what Treeco said. When we replaced our pre-EPA stove with a Quadrafire 2100 our wood consumption went from 5 to 7 cords per year to under 3. Huge difference and no less heat.
Dok


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## stihl sawing (Jan 8, 2010)

I was like you, got rid of the old stove and got a new one, As TreeCo said it will use less wood and mine even puts out more heat than the old one and is smaller in size. Go for it you won't be dissapointed.


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## trouba (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> The EPA stoves use about a third less wood for the same heat output.



That is a very subjective statement, 1/3 less whew that's a lot. My past experiences with the Jotul #8 and my Lopi would be mixed. While I don't dispute they might burn less wood but 1/3 give me a break, in my case it has been negligible as I have been cutting the same amount of wood, its not like one day I put in the Lopi and then all of a sudden didn't have to cut 3 pickup loads of wood. So all I am sayin is lab testing doesn't always = the same thing in the real world. I think it would interesting to hear from some other members of their real world experiences after a change out as compared to the lab tests.


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## lobsta1 (Jan 9, 2010)

I think 10% less on average might be a more realistic figure. The most striking difference is the wood MUST be seasoned. Otherwise you will be fighting a never ending (& frustrating) battle of excessive coals building up. What's amazing is how little heat is given off by the coals.
Al


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## trouba (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Likely your Jotul #8 was a fairly efficient stove to begin with. I believe it's basic design is still seen in some of today's Jotul stoves....but with improvements made.
> I used for years a Riteway Model 37 that was a down draft design that was designed so the smoke exiting the stove had to go down near the coals...it was well known to be more efficient than the top exhaust types. I added a catalyst to it in 1981....well ahead of the EPA mandates that started in 1989.



No the Jotul is still around just moved it to the cabin, in fact we rebuilt it last year after it spent a week under water in the flood of 08 still works great. TreeCo I agree not all stoves are created equal new or old. So I guess the moral of the story is if you find a good used Jotul #8 buy it.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## trouba (Jan 9, 2010)

lobsta1 said:


> I think 10% less on average might be a more realistic figure. The most striking difference is the wood MUST be seasoned. Otherwise you will be fighting a never ending (& frustrating) battle of excessive coals building up. What's amazing is how little heat is given off by the coals.
> Al



:agree2:


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## wkpoor (Jan 9, 2010)

I too wonder about new stoves over the old ones. Do they just burn cleaner or do they put out more heat. So far I only know 2 people with new cat stoves. Me and my wife both have left their homes saying....nice stove but wheres the heat??


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## City Slicker (Jan 9, 2010)

*Vermont Defiant*

My brother is not sold on the catalytic stoves. His catalytic has been replaced twice and the third time removed it completely and stove burning much better.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 9, 2010)

The cat in my stove works but it has to be at a high temp for it too. Right now it's fine cause it's really cold outside but when the temps aren't that cold outside the stove will make the house too hot if you keep it hot enough for the cat to work. You can't stay in the house. A friend of mine has never used his cat, he just keeps the dampner open. Mine will get too hot with dampner open even with the air control shut off. I can't really see an advantage with the cat stove.

I know their supposed to burn the smoke and put out less pollutants, but untill you get the cat really hot it won't work and the stove still smokes. On some days that means it's gonna be too hot in the house to do that.

I have a Vermont Castings Dutchwest and while i'm happy with the stove itself i'm not really sold on the catalytic thing yet. When mine burns out it may not get replaced.

For wood consumption, it does use a little less wood. It's not 1/3 or even 30% better than my old one. Sometime i think it uses more especially on really cold days. The old stove i could put five sticks of wood in and they would burn till next morning, I can only get four sticks in this one and it will not last all night. Now on warmer days it will but when it's in the 20s and below it won't.


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## wkpoor (Jan 9, 2010)

> I know their supposed to burn the smoke and put out less pollutants, but untill you get the cat really hot it won't work and the stove still smokes. On some days that means it's gonna be too hot in the house to do that.


My old non cat stove typically burns clean with no visible smoke from the chimney unless I just put 6 or more big pieces in it. Once its back to temp its clear. I can build a small hot fire or a large hot one and get the same results. I just hate to spend thousands on a stove to end up finding out it isn't any better than the old school stove that cost a few hundred.


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## Ductape (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Vermont Castings is taking a beating reputation wise. The suggestion seems to be to avoid them all together these days. I believe they've been bought and sold a few times lately.




I hear this a bit also. My non-cat Defiant has been great. Granted, its only three years old...... but it looks good (had to get a stove the olady approved of) and cranks the heat out. Based on my experience with my stove so far I'd buy another one no problem....... but i'll admit i don't like hearing the rumors out there. Those rumors might have me looking at other brands of similar stoves. The stove we has prior was also an enameled VC, built in 1979. That one was great to me also....... no doubt still heating the house of the guy i sold it to.


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## cjcocn (Jan 9, 2010)

One other thing to consider is the heating area for which your stove is recommended.

If you have a stove that's recommended for (example) 1000 sq ft and you are trying to heat 1500 sq ft with it, then you are likely better off buying a new stove (one that is rated for the area that you are heating).


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## chuckwood (Jan 9, 2010)

*real world experience - the world is getting colder!*



trouba said:


> So all I am sayin is lab testing doesn't always = the same thing in the real world. I think it would interesting to hear from some other members of their real world experiences after a change out as compared to the lab tests.



I've noticed in recent years that from one winter to the next, come mid January my wood pile is increasingly smaller, this year I might run out of seasoned wood before the heating season's over. The reason is that winters are getting colder and I'm burning more, and this winter may be one for the record books, or at least I hope so. The weather is a factor on how much wood we burn, it's not just our stove efficiency.


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## jreed (Jan 9, 2010)

Anyone using a stove in their finished basement to heat the entire house? Just wondering how this would work...does the heat find its way upstairs. I have mine in an unfinished basement with no ceiling so Im wondering how one in a finished basement with a ceiling would do.


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## wkpoor (Jan 10, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Luckily your fears are unfounded! The new stoves are more efficient and have lower emissions. Emissions mean smoke, in case you didn't know. If the older stove you are referring to met the emission and efficiency requirements established in 1989, it would most likely still be in production. It didn't and it's not.



Well its hard to say why a stove company would have gone out of business. The basic reason I've fell in love with the Nashua is because it appears to be very efficient and does pour out the heat. Top of stove can be 700 degrees and pipe a foot above is 100 degrees. Can't understand why a stove company that built something that efficient decided to stop.



> Anyone using a stove in their finished basement to heat the entire house? Just wondering how this would work...does the heat find its way upstairs. I have mine in an unfinished basement with no ceiling so Im wondering how one in a finished basement with a ceiling would do.



Thats me heating whole house from the basement. It works but not exactly the best when its real cold out like tonight at or near zero. Open floor plans are best but still expect about a 10 degree drop form floor to floor. Main 2 floors are 1800sq ft. Basement adds another 1000 to it and if its 20 or above it does a real nice job on the whole house. We are considering a second stove for the first floor next year to use on the real cold days. Basement stove will always be main source. Or like some I know just spend most of your time downstairs on the really cold days. Weather in Ohio doesn't stay this cold all winter so its not too much to endure a few less than ideal nights till it warms back up a little. My basement runs a constant 80 and the 1st floor will be 70-74. Tonight it will be 65-68 unless I keep it fired hot all night.


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## climber338 (Jan 10, 2010)

no i didnt read what everybody said but in my experence the older stoves burn hotter than the newer ones. we have a large yodal or how ever you spell it that is 2 years old. firstly the top plate that sections that top from the botton parts is cracked. second it does not burn wood hot enough to make a big difference in our house. third our old small yodal has more of an affect that the big guy does. I have no idea why but we run the thing wide open all the time with 2-3 year old dry hard wood and it never gets hot enough for us to turn it down. My has a huge old vermont castings and they will have to open windows in there house becuase it get up to 110 degrees. Imo older stoves burn hotter than the newer stoves. They might use up more wood but you get alot more heat.


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## traditions (Jan 10, 2010)

I heat a 2 story 1800 sq ft from the basement with a new Pacific Energy Summit .It does a good job until the temps go below 15 .The new stove does not smoke at all when up to temp ,only for a few minutes after loading,and does use less wood than the old stoves I have had.The newer stoves use less wood but they do not heat like the older ones did in my opinion. I have had few stoves in this house and the biggest heater I had was the Harmon ,but the top load door was always jamming, so I had to replace it with the Summit.


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## wkpoor (Jan 10, 2010)

Last 2 posts pretty sum up my experiences too.


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## danrclem (Jan 10, 2010)

jreed said:


> Anyone using a stove in their finished basement to heat the entire house? Just wondering how this would work...does the heat find its way upstairs. I have mine in an unfinished basement with no ceiling so Im wondering how one in a finished basement with a ceiling would do.



I have an old Fisher Grampa Bear in my finished basement and it heats the upstairs really well without any type of blower or fan. I can usually feel a lot of heat on the basement ceiling when coming down the stairs. I'm sure that if I put a vent from the basement ceiling going to the upstairs hallway it would heat the upstairs even more but it really isn't necessary. I may put one in and see how it works and I could always block it off if the basement got too cool.

I hear a lot of people saying that their newer epa stoves use less wood but produce less heat. That doesn't sound like a very good trade off to me.


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## lobsta1 (Jan 11, 2010)

climber338 said:


> no i didnt read what everybody said but in my experence the older stoves burn hotter than the newer ones. we have a large yodal or how ever you spell it that is 2 years old. firstly the top plate that sections that top from the botton parts is cracked. second it does not burn wood hot enough to make a big difference in our house. third our old small yodal has more of an affect that the big guy does. I have no idea why but we run the thing wide open all the time with 2-3 year old dry hard wood and it never gets hot enough for us to turn it down. My has a huge old vermont castings and they will have to open windows in there house becuase it get up to 110 degrees. Imo older stoves burn hotter than the newer stoves. They might use up more wood but you get alot more heat.



There is something wrong with either your stove (cracked top section not allowing secondary burn maybe), improper installation or wet wood.
New EPA stoves create most of their heat from the secondary burning of the gases being released from from the primary burning of the fuel. Secondary burn takes place at over 1000F. That temp is reached by the air being preheated. If cooler air is being introduced through that crack, you probably are not getting a full burn. 

If your wood is wet, the water vapor being released is at 212F. That water is usually kept trapped under the bark. That cool temp prevents a good secondary burn. I can watch the temp in my house drop when trying to burn two year cut/split/stacked locust. My wood is stacked tightly under a lean to. Air can't circulate as the stack is 8'x8'x18'.

If you have the primary air wide open all the time, is any air being diverted to the secondary burn area? What happens when you initiate secondary burn?

Is your stove installed into a masonry flue? Do you have a stainless liner? Is it insulated? If in an old clay liner flue, it is probably way over sized. If it is an exterior chimney & not insulated, you are killing your draft. (& creating creosote) 

There is a reason you are not getting the heat you should be. You just have to figure out why not.

Good Luck
Al


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## deerlakejens (Jan 11, 2010)

We've heated our 3200 sq.ft. house with a Fisher in our finished basement for the past 5 years. During our 10 day power outage with lows in the teens and highs in the low 30's, we were able to keep the house in the mid 60's. I go through about 5 cords of fir a year and have also wondered about upgrading to a more efficient stove. The old Fisher heats up fast, though, and with a full load lasts through the night, it would be hard to see it go!


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## sesmith (Jan 11, 2010)

Take a look at the graph on this brochure from Blaze King. 

http://www.blazefireplaces.com/Wood_Stoves/68051 Classic.pdf

While I'm not going to comment on whether I think I could ever see useful 2 day burns on one, the graph should say one thing if you look at the cat temp vs the flue temp. The cat stays lit throughout the burn, and burns gases that would just go up the chimney. The flue temp is lower, so the stove is turning these "waste" gases into useful heat. That means less wood for the same heat, period. How much less is anybody's guess and would probably vary depending on how the stove is burned.

I don't have a new epa stove personally. I added secondary burn tubes to my older 80's vintage stove last year. I can say that it completely changed the way the stove burns. I get more heat out of it when the secondary tubes are lit (I have to be careful not to overfire it). It does use some less wood although no where near a third less (the solar hot air collector I built this year is way more responsible for my savings of wood this year, so it's hard to tell how much less the stove is using). It also burns noticeably cleaner. So I can say there is some truth to the value of the new stove technologies.


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## des170stihl (Jan 11, 2010)

*I hate to get of rid things that work*

I agree that the new stoves that are EPA Certified run cleaner,, But I have a Old Fisher Mama Bear in one shop and a Fisher Baby Bear in another shop And a Jotul in my house. Those Old Fishers I bought over 25 years ago and still produce super heat. I don,t think I,m going replace them anytime soon. I guess it,s ones choice on weather to take the plunge or not. The New Wood stoves are not getting any cheaper. The longer you wait the more you,ll pay for sure.


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## kdp4th (Jan 12, 2010)

We have a Vermont Casting Large Winter Warm fire place insert and it works great to heat our two story home in Atlanta GA. We do keep the doors closed to the rooms that we are not using. It does use less wood and puts out more heat than the open fire place. I had a Franklin stove in the 80's and the insert seems to use less wood...


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## MarylandGuy (Jan 12, 2010)

Oh my gosh, the differences between my old stove from the 1970's and my 2003 (Non Cat) Hearthstone is unbelievable. I am burning at least a third less wood and possibly half as much. I could never go back to that old stove.

The new stove does have it's quirks. As mentioned earlier, it does not like green wood or wet wood. The old stove would gobble that stuff up with a little extra air in the firebox. The new stove just wants to smolder with wet wood. 

Where I used to use large splits and kept a small stack of large overnight logs, the new stove is just the opposite. It wants small splits, even for the overnight burn. 

The key it to allow the stove to get good and hot so that the secondary burn kicks in. When you see the flames in the ceiling of the stove, you know there is zero smoke coming out of your chimney.

Some of you may have had semi efficient stoves pre EPA days, but for those of you that have stoves that gobble up wood, think long and hard about getting a new stove. You will be soooo much happier!


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## kdp4th (Jan 13, 2010)

Yes, I found the same thing. The old fireplace likes large splits, the new stove likes smaller splits and is using less wood.


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## jreed (Jan 13, 2010)

Here's my delima...which Ive posted other places as well. Still not sure what direction to go in.

I am in the process of re-evaluating my heating method. I am in a 1500 sq. ft ranch home with an unfinished basement. I currently have an Alaska Kodiak wood stove insert propped up on blocks in the basement which I fire around 4 months a year. I typically burn about 6 cords of wood. It does an ok job heating and looks exactly like this:






My preference would be to stick with a wood stove but get something more efficient that would heat both the basement and upstairs. I will likely be insulating the basement in the near future which will help tremendously I would think. However, my question is what happens if I add a room in the basement and hang a ceiling? Will the stove still be effective at that point? My plans are to have a family room and possibly one bedroom in the basement, but it will mostly be open. Or, should I just bite the bullet and install duct work and a furnace? If the wood stove would still work once the basement I would prefer that.

Last question, would the insert I have be less efficient than a free standing stove of the same type? Or, are the basically the same?


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## Ljute (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm in a similar situation. We heat the whole house with an old Timberline stove that is in the basement. It has no windowed doors which is fine with me because it's not in an area where we would sit to admire the flames. I nicknamed the thing "Smokedragon".

Been shopping around for a replacement. One problem I have getting a new one (besides the price!) is that all woodstoves these days seem to have windows in them. I presently crank the ol' Smokedragon, sometimes getting it up to 800°. Would this harm a new stove, especially the glass?


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## cjcocn (Jan 13, 2010)

Ljute said:


> I'm in a similar situation. We heat the whole house with an old Timberline stove that is in the basement. It has no windowed doors which is fine with me because it's not in an area where we would sit to admire the flames. I nicknamed the thing "Smokedragon".
> 
> Been shopping around for a replacement. One problem I have getting a new one (besides the price!) is that all woodstoves these days seem to have windows in them. I presently crank the ol' Smokedragon, sometimes getting it up to 800°. Would this harm a new stove, especially the glass?



I believe that the glass is tempered or otherwise treated so that the higher temps will not affect it. I have had my little Regency cranked full-bore and the glass has not suffered because of it. Besides, the high heat will help keep the glass clear.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 13, 2010)

Ljute said:


> I'm in a similar situation. We heat the whole house with an old Timberline stove that is in the basement. It has no windowed doors which is fine with me because it's not in an area where we would sit to admire the flames. I nicknamed the thing "Smokedragon".
> 
> Been shopping around for a replacement. One problem I have getting a new one (besides the price!) is that all woodstoves these days seem to have windows in them. I presently crank the ol' Smokedragon, sometimes getting it up to 800°. Would this harm a new stove, especially the glass?


The heat will not hurt the glass, now you're avatar may break it if you look at it.


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## Ljute (Jan 13, 2010)

stihl sawing said:


> The heat will not hurt the glass, now you're avatar may break it if you look at it.



Hater.


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## Ljute (Jan 13, 2010)

cjcocn said:


> I believe that the glass is tempered or otherwise treated so that the higher temps will not affect it. I have had my little Regency cranked full-bore and the glass has not suffered because of it. Besides, the high heat will help keep the glass clear.



Good to know. Now if I can get over the prices.


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## blades (Jan 13, 2010)

In some of these reports, old vs new, one has to take into account the stove side & back shielding. Take a look at the clearances for the non epa vs approved units. There can be up to 12" less on the new models generally this means the radiant heat is somehow being focused in only a couple directions hence the provisions for blowers. Take a look at the ESW 30nc or 13 blower air flow for a better idea of what I am trying to convey. Not that the older designs did not use blowers but that they radiate heat from a lot more surface area due to the internal design ( or lack there of) differences. The old Ben Franklin in the middle of the room radiated 360 degrees, stuff tight in a corner or 12" of the back and the walls would be charcoal shortly ( kind of extreme ,just for illustration). My own stove ( 2000 Comfort Systems) has side and back shielding which when is at operating temp ( secondary's roaring) you can put your hand on them with out getting burned. They are hot but not blistering.


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## laynes69 (Jan 13, 2010)

I went from a old woodfurnace to a EPA model and its a night and day difference. While the old one would produce more heat, it gobbled the wood. We are at a normal temperature, instead of 70-80 degree swings and our chimney has stayed clean. The old furnace would have used all rounds and lots of them to get us through the night. The new furnace half the load and I don't have to worry about waking to a cold furnace. I wish we would have switched a long time ago.


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## Mgrella5 (Dec 10, 2012)

I'd find an old nashua n24. Just refurbished one and dropped it in my basement. 30yrs old and looks and runs like its brand new. These stoves are awesome. It throws so much heat


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## blades (Dec 10, 2012)

Nc 30 - I wouldn't want to touch the sides of my 30 when the top is registering 400+ as the sides are not far behind. Note NC 30 comes with rear heat shield side ones are optional.


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## zogger (Dec 10, 2012)

Seems to me the newer stoves all mostly work much better and use less wood, at a variable, but also require a lot more expensive repair parts all the time. Plus, initial cost. they ain't cheap, at least not for me they ain't. (yes, I know I am at the bottom of the scale here on this site for income...) That's what is keeping me away from a newer heater, geez loweez even the used ones cost a lot. New is out of the question right now. I've looked at all the various cheap entry level new stoves and heaters I could find, meh, can't see them working any better than what I have now. I could add ambience with a glass front as the only upgrade part at cheap levels. meh..

Then the repairs, the stuff that wears out and has to be replaced with these new high tech stoves,, those tubes and burners and fireblankets and blowers and so on. Plus mostly having to have the electricity going for a lot of them to work properly. That's a big negative to me, big ice storm hits, cold windy nasty..dang power is gonna go out, you just know it will, right exactly when you really want the old dragon throwing some heat. Heck, supposedly some of the boilers can fail pretty good if they don't have electricity working to run them.

ya, I know having a genny is a good idea and I have one, you just don't know i it will really work or not, might start then crap out, then uel storage. got enough for a day or two, how about a month? Questions like that. I want my all back reality here to not be entirely dependent on electricity up, OR easy cheap close by more fuel supplies..because that might just not exist, as we have just seen. My wood heater.no electricity needed, my backup propane heater, no electricity needed, just a wall unit with a piezo click start or use a match.

My old heater cost 25 bucks used. antique, no idea when it was made. Cast iron with sheet metal sides. Well, it's an oval shape. Only one side to an oval.... Have to go around ten times price of that to even think about a newer stove,(and those cheap ones just ain't that great) and they go up from there into way over a thousand bucks-two grand, whatever, or those outside boilers, which cost like a late model decent used truck... and I sucketh at welding so can't make my own.

Every few years I get a few black stove pipe sections to use as liner and reline it on the inside (the exisiting sheet metal) with some pop rivets and sheet metal screws.(most likely there was exact factory new sheet metal for it, way out of production, so came up with that idea) Not too expensive or hard to do. Besides that, looks like it would work pret near forever. I know I burn a lot of wood, but I think that is way more to do with the leaky no insulation cabin then the design of the stove. If the cabin was actually built well and insulated well and good windows, etc,, meh, proly a heater 1/3rd the size and only 1/3rd or less for the wood would work fine. Or, could work for a 3-4 times larger house if it was more modern and tighter, etc.

ME, if I had the extra loot, and owned here, I'd put the loot into an actual 21st century (this is important, 21st century, not last century level, or century before that) insulation update, and skip the new expensive heater. You'll cut the wood supply down much farther (and forever, a point) than you would with an updated top of the line heater, in almost any case. Now that's just my opinion, but based on working in the field and looking at and living in a variety of homes and seeing what people consider to be "good" insulation levels as opposed to what real engineering studies have shown is actually "good".

Analogy time! This is what I have seen, I'll be as close and accurate as I can get with this

For example purposes, we are talking very cold winter day, "you" are the house..ask yourself what you want to be wearing for the outside temps...

my cabin = wearing a T shirt..absymal two centuries ago levels of air infiltration and insulation construction, basically nothing, just planks and some cheap panelling on the inside to cut the draft down a little

most residential units, the vast hugemongous majority, even relatively new construction, at best = long sleeve sweat shirt

what most consider to be very good insulation and very best quality windows and doors etc = nice jacket (getting better finally now, maybe one home in a hundred like this, something like that)

There are maybe, some sort of SWAG at this from what I have read, a few hundred to maybe small single digit thousands (no one knows other than not very many) "winter parka" level residences around in the US-you get to that level, very little if any additional winter heating is actually needed (also for cooling purposes)

I know it ain't sexy, but it has been my experience most folks only think in terms of throwing more energy at a situation, or somehow altering what energy source they use, or energy consuming device, rather than conserving what they have better. Talking about the longer term economics of it and so on. It's an all of the above solution, not just one or the other. 

""Conservation" the entire topic of it, has turned into "boring", "can't work" "stupid green hippie nonsense" "must be subsidsed by the tax payer/government" etc. Well, that's just not true, none of it, but there ya go, anyone can take it for what it is worth. I hope my analogy makes some sense, because that is really what it is. Burn more and more with what you have, get some modest gains with throwing more tech at it and expense (upgraded good quality burner), or burn much less with just a lot more solid "old tech" entering into the solution (same burner, go to a jacket or parka), or both, more of the old combined with just a little bit more o the new tech. I like that last option the most of the three choices. And there's really only those three choices. 

Anyway, using a more modern heating device, sure, that's the easiest/quickest and cheapest way to get more BTUS in your home with less burning/cutting. Depends on your house's insulation level, what a cost or hassle it is to get your wood, and what an upgraded unit costs over pay back there. No problem there, this is completely viable to upgrade the unit to a better one,, but it is good to look at both sides of it, getting the BTUs there cheaper, and also *hanging on to those BTUs* so you ain't trying to heat the outside world. Go at least from a sweatshirt level to a jacket level.


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## allstihl (Dec 10, 2012)

wow this is allmost as much fun as an oil thread


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## stihly dan (Dec 10, 2012)

Zogger, I like you and your threads. If you or anyone you know are up in the nh area, I will give you a large 2007 EPA glass front stove.


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## zogger (Dec 12, 2012)

stihly dan said:


> Zogger, I like you and your threads. If you or anyone you know are up in the nh area, I will give you a large 2007 EPA glass front stove.



ha! For real!

I got an old phart online buddy of mine lives I think now around brattleboro vt..I think, he moved last year, finally got his country place he has been wanting for like decades. he burns..I'll ask him what he is using.


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