# Is a Website a worthwile investment?



## Grind4012 (Jan 18, 2010)

Hello,
I am new to this forum, but I have been "lurking" for a few weeks.
I own/operate a Stump Grinding LLC primarily on the weekend(s) and after work. 

I have often thought about adding/creating a Website to compliment my other advertising, yellow pages, craigslist, local paper and an occasional circular. Problem is that I would need to have it built and hosted as I do not have the expertise to perform those tasks. Having a Website built, designed & hosted can cost some big money. (too me anyway)
For those of you that have a website, would you say it was worth the expense? Also note that I am working "part time".


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## lawnmowertech37 (Jan 18, 2010)

Grind4012 said:


> Hello,
> I am new to this forum, but I have been "lurking" for a few weeks.
> I own/operate a Stump Grinding LLC primarily on the weekend(s) and after work.
> 
> ...



well you just want a info site more than anything correct ? 

i happen to have dreamweaver on my computer i may be able to use a basic html site one page or three you just have to supply me with the details of what you want on the site 

but as far as cost you just buy some parts from me and i will make you a site for free 

and i will find a way to get the files over to you only thing you will need is a hosting company and there are many out there that cost very low costs 
http://www.justhost.com is a cheap hosting company i been with them for a year now with a different site i own and had no issues 

there support is on the computer and they get to you in less than 12 hrs with a answer and they have live help on there as well
those guys at just host has a program in the cpanel that designs your own website in minutes 
you can take a peak what it looks like here 

http://www.chainsawpartslists.com 

that is the site that is hosted there at justhost 

and that is the free design tool you get with the standard package


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## ATH (Jan 18, 2010)

Yes. The better question is: is a yellowpage ad a worthwhile investment. Welcome to 2010 

There are many many free tools out there. A couple of examples.

I just redid mine using a system called WordPress (www.wordpress.org): my site: www.advancedtreehealth.com This tool is not necessairly designed for traditional business websites, but it can work well for that with the correct theme (template). YOu can even download Atisteer for tree to make your own theme. I tried it, but couldn't get what I wanted with it. There are thousands of plugins to do what ever you want with it. After I learned WordPress (self-taught), I also did our church's website www.crosspointfindlay.com with it. I actually like that one better than my business site...lots of good plugins that I used there.

I host through bluehost. First couple years are 3.95 per month (if you shop around and find a link from another advertising site) and 6.95 after that. That also includes a domain registration. Bluehost does have some free tools, but I have never used them.

Microsoft Office Live offers free hosting and free tools to build a site. You will need to pay for domain registration.

Having said all of that, if you shop around, you can probably find somebody to do you a simple site for $250 or less (then you'll have to pay for hosting). I'd suggest you not have your hosting dependend on the designer (so if you don't like one, you can leave and keep you site/domain name).


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## lawnmowertech37 (Jan 19, 2010)

ATH said:


> Yes. The better question is: is a yellowpage ad a worthwhile investment. Welcome to 2010
> 
> There are many many free tools out there. A couple of examples.
> 
> ...



you are purty good at wordpress where do you get the different templates


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## ATH (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks 

The credits for both themes (templates) is in the footer. The business site I found through much googling. The church site I found by looking at other church sites which led me to the theme's author's site (Living_OS) where I found the one I used. FWIW, I did check the link at the bottom of your site (which also looks very nice) and see that templateworld also has wordpress themes.

(I would probably have been 'legal' just having the themes credited in the code, but they were helpful enough that I thought it only right to leave them more visible...)

On the advancedtreehealth site, I added the 'slideshow' separate from the theme. It is a plugin called vSlider. I had another one that rotated random images, but I couldn't get it to look right on multiple browsers...

There is a learning curve to wordpress like anything else...but once I got that down, I feel like I can do what I want with it (except make myself more aesthetically creative).


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## ASD (Jan 19, 2010)

The rule of thumb used to be if you were not in the phone book u were a fly by night co! Now days if you don't wave a web site you are. We no longer have add's in the ph book we just do web based stuff and mailers and are saving HUGE $$$ as we used to run 1/2 page add's in 6 books and we tracked it for 2 years and found that 90% of our calls were not coming from the ph book add's and that is where 80 % of our add money was being spent! Now we spend only 30% of what we use to and get 10 x the calls / bis


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## lawnmowertech37 (Jan 21, 2010)

ASD said:


> The rule of thumb used to be if you were not in the phone book u were a fly by night co! Now days if you don't wave a web site you are. We no longer have add's in the ph book we just do web based stuff and mailers and are saving HUGE $$$ as we used to run 1/2 page add's in 6 books and we tracked it for 2 years and found that 90% of our calls were not coming from the ph book add's and that is where 80 % of our add money was being spent! Now we spend only 30% of what we use to and get 10 x the calls / bis



same here i dont advertise in the yellow pages yellow pages is of yesteryear the old way to advertise alot of people use internet to search alot of online buyers too so being on the web is a better solution than being in a phonebook that costs every month between 30.00 on up to 600.00 depending on ad size craigslist is one good free way of advertising 

i sold some ayp belts to a local guy by putting the ad on craigslist 

so also the local newspaper is a good source 

costs cheaper than a phone book ad 

word of mouth another good quality advertisement T - shirts with your business name and all another good way
yea once i get my images back on the site during our upgrade from the older version to the new version most of the images got lost in the process i say ouch cause that is over 4500 products i got to go thru one at a time


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## Buckettruckbabe (Jan 21, 2010)

*Web presence is a MUST*

Our entire business is driven by the internet because we sell to North America. Likewise, optimizing that presence for Google Page Rank and position is also a huge factor for us. (competition)

From a local standpoint, you can take advantage of lots of Freebies, as mentioned, Wordpress is a great vehicle, ranks well in Google and can get you noticed.

I recommend that you purchase a Domain name (GoDaddy is the easiest and you can set it up to automatically renew) Roughly $30. Anymore, it's recommended that you use a keyword rich URL, versus your business name. This can be transferred to where you host your site/blog.

www.stumpgrinding.com (for example) You can check and see if the domain is available, or you can opt for your business name.

www.Webs.com is free and has design templates. It's designed for people who aren't webmasters. You can transfer your domain name so it's just like a regular hosted website and to do that costs $50/year.

Bottom line, you don't have to spend a fortune on webdesigners and webhosting. But in the age of technology, it pays to have a web presence.

Yahoo Local, Merchantcircle, etc. are other freebies you can take advantage of too.


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## Grind4012 (Jan 21, 2010)

Thank You for the response's, all good ideas and suggestions.

Now, I need to do some more research!! Good thing it is winter and we are not grinding. Gives me time to check this stuff out.

Thanks again.


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## af7850 (Feb 12, 2010)

Buckettruckbabe said:


> ...optimizing that presence for Google Page Rank and position is also a huge factor for us. (competition)
> ...
> Yahoo Local, Merchantcircle, etc. are other freebies you can take advantage of too.



Great suggestion. If you want to start on a dime without needing to know the mechanics of web design, this is what I think will work best.

Start with Merchant Circle. Great service, and you can get a starter site (no ppc ads, limited coupon creation, one physical location) for free. They have great built-in SEO too, so if you spend some time building all of the free features they offer (newsletter, blog, testamonials, etc), you should be able to quickly show up near the top of Google rankings. You will need to know a thing or two about keyword weighting, though, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Next, get yourself an express website name from a decent place ( I use www.cheap-domainregistration.com ), and forward it to your Merchant Circle site. Forward it in "masked" mode, and when somebody types in "www.yoursite.com", it will forward them to your Merchant Circle while leaving "yoursite.com" in their browser bar. This way it doesn't look quite like cheap forwarding... even though it is. 

Anyway, this set-up will run you about $8.00 per year. If you get some traffic, then think about going web-crazy. If not, maybe try some web advertising (which Merchant Circle can help you with for a fee), or try something else entirely.


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## Buckettruckbabe (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks!

Another freebie you can utilize for promotions are blogs...

Wordpress is great and so is Blogger. Cross promote and enhance your business presence between your website and accounts. I utilizie everything I can get my hands on. 

Be sure to take advantage of free classifieds too, especially those that allow backlinks to your website and photos. Take some nice stills of you doing your work, your equipment & staff. (action stills)

We had an email response recently from a guy in Canada, and his "signature" was a pic of him in a tree with his safety harness, gear and holding up his chainsaw like he was waving "hi". 

Very cool.


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 16, 2010)

You could get somone like Hawt Sites to get you up and running for just a few hundred dollars. Based out of Portland.

http://www.hawtsites.com

You don't need to get too fancy, but just a nice presentable site with a couple of pages.

A service like that could have you up and running in almost no time at all.

Its really quite inexpensive.


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## Lumberjacked (Feb 16, 2010)

Last week I got THREE!!! calls the same day from the yellow pages people trying to get me to adv. with them...haha. 5 years ago...zero calls ALL year, think about it, they too know the phone book is becoming worthless that is why they are now the ones calling us. 

My website was made by a friend that went to school for web design and photography, $1200 later I have a great base for future changes and growth. www.AGreenerCNY.com In my opinion it is 110% better then any other companies that I am in direct competition with. Check it out I would love some of your feedback.


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## BuddhaKat (Feb 16, 2010)

I do websites and hosting. It's not expensive at app to put up a simple website. Take a look at my firewood site. www.MikeTheFirewoodGuy.com.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 17, 2010)

Lumberjacked said:


> Last week I got THREE!!! calls the same day from the yellow pages people trying to get me to adv. with them...haha. 5 years ago...zero calls ALL year, think about it, they too know the phone book is becoming worthless that is why they are now the ones calling us.
> 
> My website was made by a friend that went to school for web design and photography, $1200 later I have a great base for future changes and growth. www.AGreenerCNY.com In my opinion it is 110% better then any other companies that I am in direct competition with. Check it out I would love some of your feedback.



My inhouse webbuilder took a look at all the pages of your site and threw out a number that was around 25% of your cost to build a site of that size and style. She hadn't yet seen what you said you paid for it. 

It's a nice site, but I don't think it's built for good search status. IMO flash should be used in necessary applications, because it does poorly in search engines in alot of cases. There's nothing I see on your site that makes flash necessary. 

Also, I didn't think there were enough pics, Love the homepage pic, but the other two are too dark to see clearly. It would take almost no time to touch those up for greatly improved quality, and I've never been to photog school. 

Can you add to/edit your site whenever you want?

Check out the web owners working in trees group...http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=124258.....My site has benefited greatly from the info that's being shared there.


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## Lumberjacked (Feb 17, 2010)

Well I asked some other web people what they would have charged me and it was 50% more then my original number. As far as search engines, every phrase or word that a customer in my area would search brings up my site in the top 5 options each time. Also, it's not just what you have in your site but what you have in the backdoor code which is actually what is searched by google/yahoo/etc. As far as the pics, not sure if you know this or not but it is a pain to try and read text that is laid over the top of a regular picture. Therefore I had her darken and smooth the edges for ease of reading. We are in the process of getting a picture page together but I feel the information I provide is far more important then a shiney picture.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 17, 2010)

Lumberjacked said:


> Well I asked some other web people what they would have charged me and it was 50% more then my original number. As far as search engines, every phrase or word that a customer in my area would search brings up my site in the top 5 options each time. Also, it's not just what you have in your site but what you have in the backdoor code which is actually what is searched by google/yahoo/etc. As far as the pics, not sure if you know this or not but it is a pain to try and read text that is laid over the top of a regular picture. Therefore I had her darken and smooth the edges for ease of reading. We are in the process of getting a picture page together but I feel the information I provide is far more important then a shiney picture.



It's not difficult to find someone who's willing to charge you more....the trick is to get the same quality or better work for the same or lower price. 

As far as your top 5 statement....

I googled skaneateles ny tree service and you were #2 on google maps. Off google maps, on the web search I could not find your homepage through that search, but I only went a few pages deep. I found your listing on city search, but that didn't lead to your homepage either. 

It's not too difficult to rank in the top 2 for a town of 2500 people tho. How are you ranking halfway to Syracuse?

You're correct that behind the scenes coding is important, but those bots also crawl all the info on your site, and incorporate that info into their algorythim for how you rank. And they can't read flash, so all they can see of your site is what's behind the scenes. Do you think arboristsite comes up in almost every tree subject you search because of their behind the scenes coding?

Re: pics....I'm refering to the pics on the left edge of the about, philosophy, and especially the contact us page. Has nothing to do with anything that text is written on. 

Since you chose to put pics in, and probably the pics themselves, why would you not want your potential customers to see your work as clearly as possible?

I hope you didn't choose flash so people couldn't take pics and stuff from your site, because that's easily gotten around....see...







Yours on the left, on the right is the same pic after a thirty second retouching. But I'm sure you're right....who needs shiney when you can just wonder what you're looking at.....


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## BuddhaKat (Feb 17, 2010)

Lumberjacked said:


> Well I asked some other web people what they would have charged me and it was 50% more then my original number. As far as search engines, every phrase or word that a customer in my area would search brings up my site in the top 5 options each time. Also, it's not just what you have in your site but what you have in the backdoor code which is actually what is searched by google/yahoo/etc. As far as the pics, not sure if you know this or not but it is a pain to try and read text that is laid over the top of a regular picture. Therefore I had her darken and smooth the edges for ease of reading. We are in the process of getting a picture page together but I feel the information I provide is far more important then a shiney picture.


I think you've got a nice site, but I made two observations. 1. The background image needs to be just a tiny bit lighter. 2. I like the roll over effect, but I think when you click on something in the list, the info should stay persistent. If you accidentally roll off the trigger the user has to 'bother' with getting it back.

Other than that, I like the site. I would have charged you a bit less though if I had done it.

Cheers,


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## af7850 (Feb 18, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> As far as your top 5 statement....
> 
> I googled skaneateles ny tree service and you were #2 on google maps. Off google maps, on the web search I could not find your homepage through that search, but I only went a few pages deep. I found your listing on city search, but that didn't lead to your homepage either.



Interesting... I ran the exact same search, and he came up #2 for local results, then #1 in search results, with Citysearch result being #2.

View attachment 125788


I have also been told that flash sites don't rank as well. In fact, I ran a quick SEO optimization analysis of this site and, aside from the title tag, returned no readable content. However, regardless of our opinions regarding flash sites, there's no arguing the results.




> Since you chose to put pics in, and probably the pics themselves, why would you not want your potential customers to see your work as clearly as possible?



I think using pictures as background is a nice touch when done well. Overall aesthetics of a site is, IMO, one of the more underrated components of great web design. 



> Yours on the left, on the right is the same pic after a thirty second retouching. But I'm sure you're right....who needs shiney when you can just wonder what you're looking at.....



I think that you are bing a bit overcritical here. In fact, I the original image, while a bit drab, shows well enough in my monitor to be easily visible, while your alteration looks washed out and far more colorless. 

View attachment 125789

View attachment 125790


If anything, you can alter the saturation, color depth, hue and contrast to perk up your image and give it a little more "pop".

View attachment 125791


That took me less than a minute with FREE image engineering software, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm no pro-caliber graphic arts guy. I'm sure that a pro could do a much finer job without breaking a sweat.

Overall: 

- I agree with BuddhaKat about the rollover effect. 
- I like the overall layout of the site.
- I know it's difficult to contrast text laid over bkgd images. While you do it adequately, I think that it could be tweaked if you're concerned about it.
- If you are concerned about visible images, add a photo book.
- I would like to hear your thoughts on other searches that you'd like to rank well for (Syracuse was mentioned)?

I'm no web professor, but I'd grade it a solid B, which on my scale is certainly above average. Nice work!


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 18, 2010)

af7850 said:


> Interesting... I ran the exact same search, and he came up #2 for local results, then #1 in search results, with Citysearch result being #2.
> 
> View attachment 125788
> 
> ...



I re-ran the search today and got your results....I don't think I missed it last night, but it's possible. 

At any rate, Skaneateles is a town of 2500 people. I don't think thats enough people to stay busy, and when you begin searching only a few miles away, Lake Lawn Tree Service becomes nearly unfindable. 

Your comments on my pic alteration were the one thing I was worried about and didn't want to hear......Looks like my monitor is playing tricks on me....time for a new one. Now I'm worried that some of the pics on my site have the same washed out colorless look. 



> aside from the title tag, returned no readable content


Thats exactly the problem....A person can't code enough information into a flash site to rank well in a broad area. 

Flash is great. It can do things that cant be achieved any other way. But it's a poor choice for a contractor site operating in a fixed area, especially a basically static site. 

I said in my first post about the site that it was a good looking, nice site. My (some incorrect) criticisms were meant only to help. 

Lumberjacked has still not told us whether he can add/edit content at will, and for free, which is a pretty important aspect to an evolving site. When you combine the limitations flash imposes, and the cost of the site build, and the cost of site changes & maintenance, there are better, more cost effective ways to achieve the goal. But that's only my opinion. I'm not a webmaster either, so disregard my opinion at will. 

The important thing is whether Lumberjacked is happy with his site and it's performance. He's the one footing the bill, so what I think doesn't really matter. Apologies if my opinions come off as combative.


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## Buckettruckbabe (Feb 18, 2010)

Here's a link for a free website grader (SEO Tool)

http://websitegrader.com

This was something a teacher at Ascend Training (Blogging for Business) clued us in on so we could see how our website ranked in terms of SEO/On page Factors/Content/etc.

Our website scored a 88/100 at the time, and after doing some on page optimization with our webmaster, revamping of our blog and making sure all tags were correct, our score is up to 98.2/100

Our site's pictures have all been crawled by Google because they have Alt tags. Meta Tags are VERY important too, as well as having a conversion form and RSS feed/blog.

Don't forget...creating a website doesn't mean it will get found. You have to make sure to submit it to all the Search Engines, relevant directories, and start building/exchanging links!

If you have Webmaster access, I recommend Google Analytics.

Google gives Domain age and Page Rank top priority, then relevancy and content then inbound/outbound links. 

Firefox has a great plug in (free) for checking all the important SEO stuff.

The most important thing for ranking in search is deciding on your Keywords. There are tools out there
to help you, as well as the obvious. Sometimes finding a niche word in addition to the highly competitive
terms can work wonders.


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## rb_in_va (Feb 18, 2010)

I am an IT guy, and I would go with a website template. There are plenty of free ones out there. I haven't done web development in so long that a recent college grad would do a better job than me with a basic site. Also one thing I always think about it the length of the URL. The shorter the better. Also if it is catchy and easy to remember that is good. Short URLs fit better on business cards too if you have them.


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## Mike Cantolina (Feb 18, 2010)

Buckettruckbabe said:


> Our website scored a 88/100 at the time, and after doing some on page optimization with our webmaster, revamping of our blog and making sure all tags were correct, our score is up to 98.2/100



That's impressive!

I tried it and my first score is 53/100

Thanks for the link!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Feb 18, 2010)

> Is a Website a worthwile investment?



Only if you do it right. 

A poor website will send people away. You've got the right first step - recognizing that you need help. Amateurs who build their own site usually build crap.


Here's a good place to learn what NOT to do:


http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com


One more thing - you will pay for hosting _somewhere_. Make sure it includes email hosting, and USE IT!

Nothing shouts *AMATEUR HOUR* more than a "business" email address that ends in aol.com

Or whatever your ISP is....


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## af7850 (Feb 18, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> Apologies if my opinions come off as combative.



Let me offer the same apology to you! I think that you're hitting on a lot of interesting and important points.



> At any rate, Skaneateles is a town of 2500 people. I don't think thats enough people to stay busy, and when you begin searching only a few miles away, Lake Lawn Tree Service becomes nearly unfindable.



Yeah, I'm waiting to hear more about exactly what his market area is.



> Your comments on my pic alteration were the one thing I was worried about and didn't want to hear......Looks like my monitor is playing tricks on me....time for a new one. Now I'm worried that some of the pics on my site have the same washed out colorless look.



You know, it's almost impossible to know how these pics will show up in different peoples' monitors. 

Amateur studio engineers usually try to listen to their recorded music through several different types of receivers and speakers because they all sound slightly different; it's really a challenge to mix a track which sounds great regardless of where you are listening to it. To me, trying to master images for websites is a similar challenge.

For what it's worth, all of the images on your main webpage look good, except maybe the one of the sycamore ready to be dropped. 

By the way, it's easy to get on the web with a WordPress template, but it's really difficult to make it look great. Your site is pretty impressive - I can only imagine how many hours you have into it!


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## lawnmowertech37 (Feb 19, 2010)

Websites are ok to have but alot of hard work keeping them up

As far as hosting Mike has a hosting company


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## rb_in_va (Feb 19, 2010)

lawnmowertech37 said:


> Websites are ok to have but alot of hard work keeping them up



Hard work? I would hardly call it that, especially on a forum where people climb and cut trees for a living.


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## rb_in_va (Feb 19, 2010)

af7850 said:


> You know, it's almost impossible to know how these pics will show up in different peoples' monitors.



Many pro web guys will develop for 1024X768 resolution. If someone has a higher resolution it will view just fine. Also a tip to remember is to compress those large pictures. You can usually get a high resolution pic down to managable size (100KB or less) for web viewing. Large res pics are a killer for fast page loading.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 19, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


>



The resolution isn't the issue rb. Everyones monitor displays slightly different color, brightness, contrast, etc...

The image on the left isn't viewable on my monitor, but the image on the right looks great on my monitor. On others monitor the image on the left is ok, and the altered version on the left was labeled "washed out and colorless". 

I know I need a new monitor, but I'm sure some other people viewing web pages also have display issues. So it's hard to predict how images will appear on someone else's system.


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## rb_in_va (Feb 19, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> The resolution isn't the issue rb. Everyones monitor displays slightly different color, brightness, contrast, etc...



Ok, I haven't see that much difference from monitor to monitor. It's not something I've thought about too much honestly. But if you have a REALLY old monitor I guess it might be a factor. I was addressing the physical size and disk size issues.


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## af7850 (Feb 19, 2010)

Equally surprising is how differently sites are rendered depending on the browser that is used.


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## Lumberjacked (Feb 21, 2010)

This is the first year that I have had my website up, so I am still on the learning curve. As for the nit picking about my website it is slightly ridiculous but some of you're observations and opinions will be taken into account. Over time I am sure that my site will grow in size and ranking as well as my business. My web designer updates and make changes to my site at no charge and as for the price its all a he said she said.

To answer your questions about how I run my business. I do not need a city of 100,000 people to stay busy and make money mainly because my business philosophy is not "our rates are lower than most licensed and insured tree services" I have a very large following in Skaneateles as well as the surrounding areas. Just an FYI the Internet is not the only way to advertise and grow a business.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 21, 2010)

Lumberjacked said:


> My website was made by a friend that went to school for web design and photography, $1200 later I have a great base for future changes and growth.
> Check it out I would love some of your feedback.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> ...





Lumberjacked...

Chill man, you're the one who asked for feedback on your site. Like I said in the first place, it's a nice site. 

When you go to review a nice site, nearly everything that's noticed will be "nit picky", and it should be. If stuff big enough to not be "nit picky" was being mentioned, it probably wouldn't be a nice site in the first place. 

The issue of city size was to illustrate that its much easier to rank second in a town of 2500 than it is in a city of 100,000. And than when you rank second for 2500 people (and don't rank outside that) you get less total exposure than if you rank second for whatever radius 100,000 people live in. 

Pointing out things that could be done differently isn't a personal attack on you, your website, or your webbuilder. It's feedback. Which you asked for. 

Nobody asked how you run your business. We asked about the area you're trying to have your website be found in.



> and as for the price its all a he said she said



No, it's not. She'll build a website thats better than yours for roughly 25% of what you claimed to have paid. A google friendly one that can edited at will by its owner. (But that's ok...if I overpaid for a flash site I couldn't do anything to, I'd be sour too...)

Oh, and FYI, we all know that the internet isn't the only way to grow a business. It is what we're discussing here tho, so what's your point?


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## Oly's Stump (Feb 24, 2010)

ASD said:


> The rule of thumb used to be if you were not in the phone book u were a fly by night co! Now days if you don't wave a web site you are. We no longer have add's in the ph book we just do web based stuff and mailers and are saving HUGE $$$ as we used to run 1/2 page add's in 6 books and we tracked it for 2 years and found that 90% of our calls were not coming from the ph book add's and that is where 80 % of our add money was being spent! Now we spend only 30% of what we use to and get 10 x the calls / bis



I totally agree with ASD. I found the same to be true. No more yellow page adds after this year! Yellow page adds are costing me $300.00 per month and now AT&T is not even handing books out like in past years. A person has to go get one. What the hell is that!


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## Buckettruckbabe (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks Mike (Cantolina)

It's helpful to actually get feedback and see where you can make website improvements.

There is a lot to consider, especially if you depend on internet traffic.

My job is SEO/SEM for my company (in-house) vs. contracted, which we also do.

We have our main website, but we have (2) others as well that I utilize to drive traffic to the main site. One was created before I got here, the other I did myself, in addition to (4) blogs I've done in support of cross link promoting. All are designed to drive traffic to the main site. 

I have access to our main website which includes the stats. It tells me how many unique visitors by day/week/month so I can track progress, and it even breaks down what browsers people are using and the resolution. (by percentage and type.)

I realize that may be more than what most owner/operator's need in a website and feedback, but a decent web presence just anchors what it is you do. People like to be able to "find you".

Yellow pages...phooey. Makes nice firewood, and if you still have an outhouse...


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 24, 2010)

ddhlakebound said:


> Thats exactly the problem....A person can't code enough information into a flash site to rank well in a broad area.
> 
> Flash is great. It can do things that cant be achieved any other way. But it's a poor choice for a contractor site operating in a fixed area, especially a basically static site.



My only beef with Flash is the speed. Or should I say potential slowness sometimes.

Ranking is becoming less relevant all the time in saturated markets. Ranking is easier in smaller towns, or where there is limited competition.

But a lot of Web Designers and SEO folks laud "ranking" a bit too highly. I'd say that "optimization" would be the best approach. If the key words are on the home page or site, and the company name, it can be found. Like tree, stump, grind, removal or removal.

As far as ranking, that's more like gambling and the lottery every week. The example I use, is taking 100 websites. Lets say there are 100 tree services a city, and they all hire the best website person to try and get them into the top handful of slots. Well ... flip a coin. That website person can't promise jack. But they do many times,.

That's where the age of a website will have an advantage. And I think there is a lot to be said for being able to edit one's own site. Because any rise in "ranking" won't be due to the design of a site. It will likely fall to whoever spends quite a bit of time adding to their site, editing their site, or increasing traffic to their site.

Personally, I like the look of some Flash in a website. Either way. But if someone sees a design they like, with it, I say why not, as long as the file does not grow too big. Maybe just a percentage Flash.

My goal had been to get a few visits to my services pages and home page, and a whole bunch of visits to my peripheral pages. The "pageviews" below, is for every web page combined. The high point for this month was February 15th with 1192 pageviews. My guess is that 1500 will be the peak in the spring time. Below is the screen shot I put on the Buzz the other day. From Google analytics.


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## ddhlakebound (Feb 24, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> My only beef with Flash is the speed. Or should I say potential slowness sometimes.
> 
> Ranking is becoming less relevant all the time in saturated markets. Ranking is easier in smaller towns, or where there is limited competition.
> 
> ...



With a fair percentage of internet users on something resembling high speed, I see bots and spiders being unable to read content as the biggest limitation of flash. 

I'd wholeheartedly disagree that rankings are becoming less relevant due to saturation. The levels of market saturation for anything you search for is becoming greater with time, but peoples patience to look beyond the first few listings or the first page has not increased. 

I agree that overall optimization is the best approach, but simply having a word in the text of your site does not mean that people will find you. The complexities of the algorithm used to determine ranking hinge on much more than keywords and keyword density alone. I agree that you can be found. But whether or not you will be found depends alot on your rankings. 



> As far as ranking, that's more like gambling and the lottery every week. The example I use, is taking 100 websites. Lets say there are 100 tree services a city, and they all hire the best website person to try and get them into the top handful of slots. Well ... flip a coin. That website person can't promise jack. But they do many times,.



In theory this is 100% accurate, but in reality if it's akin to gambling, it's more like poker where the skill of the player has much to do with the end result. All 100 tree services won't hire or develop a seo pro. Of the ones who do, they won't all hire the best pro. 

So the players who are learning and making a concerted effort will realize a definate advantage. But when it comes to scrapping over those top few spots, I'll agree that it's much like gambling. 

I've never said flash doesn't look good, it does. And I agree that a or some flash applications in a non flash site can provide some worthwhile benefits, but I strongly stand by my statement that a stand alone flash site is a very poor choice for a contractor operating in a fixed area. 

The traffic on your site is impressive M.D. In fairness, you do have multiple different topics bringing people in, to the level that you've got enough content for several different stand alone websites. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that, only that all the visitors are not necessarily there to learn about arboriculture, so comparing your site to an arboriculture only site isn't comparing apples to apples. 

It's easy to see that you've invested alot of time and work into your website, and it shows in your traffic. I don't like AdWords, but I do like your usage of it in your information pages, and keeping it off your "work" pages. Are you making any money from it?


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 25, 2010)

Most people will get the first page of results, often with just 10 companies or results. Not neccessarily even 10 companies.

So in big towns, again using the example of 100 companies with sites, if 90 companies don't make it to the first page, its basically "Adios Amigo !!"

Say 10 years goes by, and now there are 200 companies with sites in one nich. Double. The first search results are still pretty much going to be 10 that matter.

It might be comparable to affordable beachfront property, back in the early 1900s in Oregon, compared to everybody hoping to afford a full size beachfront house in 2010. Only a limited number of people can afford beachfront houses now. The rest of the folks just rent one for a weekend. Beach front is limited to a line, minus the parks. Cities on the other hand, generally can expand outward in any direction. That's why the beachfront example clicks for my way of thinking in light of website saturation on the internet. The entire internet space is unlimited, but page one of search results will more or less always be page one, or one page.

In the Portland area, it seems more akin to actuality than gambling. A few sites illustrate it. For example, Garden Aesthetics has been in the top few spots for landscape design for at least 5 years straight that I can tell. I've been in the top few spots for Portland Certified Arborist for several years. Likewise with some other sites I've watched. One common element has been the age of the URLs.

Occassionally, I'll see a new website do well and get on the first page steadily, but its not the norm

The one thing that seems so different about the internet, compared to the Yellow Pages, is the variation on the internet. Which may fall into what you call the gambing nature. With the Yellow Pages, someone could choose to pick any size ad they wanted, and the ad was always going to be in the same place, guaranteed. One of few drawbacks was having a name at the end of the alphabet, if readers began with the As, Bs and Cs.

The alphabetical handicap of the Yellow Pages, may be one thing partially comparable to the uncertainty of whether someone will be in the first results of Google, Ask, MSN or Yahoo.

I also disliked AdWords.

Do you have any idea what companies are bidding for them these days? I have no idea, but will take a wild guess that they are bidding at least $2.00 per click for say "Portland Tree Service".

I tried AdWords about 5 or 6 years ago. High bids were like 25 cents per click to the top right corner. I was able to bid 5 cents to 10 cents per click back then, and get posted in the 2nd or 3rd space on the right side. I never saw a billing from Google for over $15 dollars in any month. Finally dropped Adwords when my website rose on the left side in regular search results to the top half.


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## DUGs-sawshop (Feb 25, 2010)

Yahoo also has a website builder for dummies. These two sites are mine that I built in my spare time and update regularly. www.mcateedemo.com and www.skidooalpine.com . I am not a computer geek , they are step by step instructions that anyone can do. 
I think a website is very important nowadays. Good luck. doug


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## rb_in_va (Feb 25, 2010)

DUGs-sawshop said:


> Yahoo also has a website builder for dummies. These two sites are mine that I built in my spare time and update regularly. www.mcateedemo.com and www.skidooalpine.com . I am not a computer geek , they are step by step instructions that anyone can do.
> I think a website is very important nowadays. Good luck. doug



Wow, nice sites Doug! See that is why I recommend most people use a template. They work great and build good navigation and features right in. That ski-doo site looks like a lot of fun. Too bad I don't get much snow where I live!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Feb 25, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> But a lot of Web Designers and SEO folks laud "ranking" a bit too highly. I'd say that "optimization" would be the best approach. If the key words are on the home page or site, and the company name, it can be found.




Optimization is the process of tweaking a website to get better rankings. Like tuning an engine to get a faster time at the track. The faster track time is the goal; engine tuning is a means to achieving that goal.

Same with optimizing a web site. You optimize to get better rankings.


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## M.D. Vaden (Feb 25, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Optimization is the process of tweaking a website to get better rankings. Like tuning an engine to get a faster time at the track. The faster track time is the goal; engine tuning is a means to achieving that goal.
> 
> Same with optimizing a web site. You optimize to get better rankings.



For speed, seems that tuning for time could fall more into Google's computing speed, a searchers connection speed, and therefore the size of code and images on a website. Like using CSS and HTML would help speed for loading time, versus a big Flash file. Or, using 50K of images versus 300 K of images.

But I suppose your analogy works in one way of thinking, although I've thought of the optimizing more like as attaining a status, than a race for a finish line.

It is true though, that optimization really can't hurt. If done right, it rarely will lower a ranking spot for display. And it won't make a site harder to find.

I've still been amused by one landscape designer website though. One of the oldest websites in Oregon for the landscape or tree trades. The tags are only half what they could be. The images have no alt tags, and there are hardly any inbound links. Yet for 5 years at least, that I've looked at it, its in the highest slots.

The reason I've watched that site, is because its one that may offer some insight as to how much weight Google puts on the age of a domain name. And my estimation is about 20% worth of importance. 

There's been a lot of landscape contracting companies really pushing for search results the past couple of years. And last time I searched "Portland Landscape", they landscaping companies still had not bumped that designer off the first page of search results. Although, it did finally move down about 3 positions last autumn. 

I'm not even sure if the designer really needs the site anymore. But one thing is certain. If she quits the trade someday, and doesn't care for web presence anymore, that URL would be rather valuable for someone in landscape design to acquire, if the site-age factor is real. Especially if a new owner of the URL would make a few fine tunings as you call them.


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## Diesel Pro (Feb 25, 2010)

Grind4012 said:


> Hello,
> I am new to this forum, but I have been "lurking" for a few weeks.
> I own/operate a Stump Grinding LLC primarily on the weekend(s) and after work.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. Just a simple site with contact info to start. Consider some pics of yourself and your equipment showing in a workmanlike manner.

I started my web site back in 97-8 if memory serves

Also consider a before, during, and after photo set to show what you can do.


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## jzgator (Mar 9, 2010)

I was lucky enough to find a woman on Cragislist that does web design. She wanted to barter for some yard/tree work. I am so impressed with my website. It generates over half of my business and I get many compliments on it.


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## bigbavarian (Mar 24, 2010)

Hey Grind,

I am a part timer as well. But part timer doesn't half azzed so I made a decision up front that I needed a good looking site. A lot of people in the business around here project an unprofessional image. When I place adds, I am proud to list my site and direct them to the site for more information.

I run the same theme through all my adds and business cards.

I am lucky though that I enjoy creating websites and was able to create mine.

Regestering the name, hosting with go daddy, and email etc was about $60 for the year.

Take a look www.cutclipandhammer.com.

If you like the look, maybe we can work out some deal. Maybe even a trade of some sort.

Think about it.

Stephen


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## ddhlakebound (Mar 25, 2010)

There are several very important questions a person needs to ask and answer for themselves as they enter and navigate the web building market. 

1. Can the builder I'm considering build me the website *I want*, the way I want it?

2. Will I be able to administrate the content of my site at will and with no cost, without spending months learning how?

3. Will my potential customers be able to find me easily on the internet, or will I have to hire a second person/firm to perform SEO work at additional cost? (Looking at how other sites from that builder rank can give some idea as to this answer.)

If all a person desires is a web presence and a static site, #2 may not matter much. If a person intends to put their web address directly in their customers hands, and not worry about being found in the search engines, #3 may be unimportant. But in order to maximize the return for your time/money spent on web building and optimizing, ultimately all three are very important, and failing to address any will likely result in starting over at some point, and wasted time and money. 

Research and spend wisely, it's your ROI and personal satisfaction on the line.


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