# Is this worth considering?



## pdqdl (May 15, 2010)

Normally, I don't hang out in the forestry forum, as that simply isn't what I do regularly. I came across a job listing for a "feller". Upon further inquiry, I was told: 

"a faller is responsible for inspecting the area to be logged, estimating the BFT of logs he can cut from the stand of timber , and then falling the trees, de limbing and bucking the usable logs from them. There is a minimum quota of 5000 bft per 8 hours falling for the first 480 hours, and after the faller should be cutting in the 15000 - 20000 bft per 8 hour range."

Quite frankly, I don't see how a feller could produce that many board feet in a day, given the puny trees we have in the midwest. That would be a pretty good sized tree estimated, cut, limbed, bucked, and measured every 20 minutes.

I don't think that is possible in a hardwood forest at 500 board feet per tree. Your opinions?


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## slowp (May 15, 2010)

Think of it as a load. Depending on weight, 5000 board ft. is a PNW truck load. Visualize loads, visualize what your stand is. Then there's a lot else to consider, which guys who do it can explain better than I.


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## Oldtimer (May 15, 2010)

I'd like to see a man cut, limb, and buck 20,000 feet of hardwood a day.
A small mechanized crew will do well to hit that mark.
Also, cutting the useable logs out...does that mean the tops / pulp is left in the woods? 
Keep looking..


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## hammerlogging (May 15, 2010)

if its really 500 bf/tree then yes its reasonable if all the factors lie right: slope, bf/acre, no equipment in the way, etc. But if you're in that league, you better get paid your due!


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## madhatte (May 16, 2010)

Big thing I see in this equation is saving out every BF possible. Sounds like pretty tricky falling. I'm probably comparing apples to oranges here, but 500 BF/tree for hardwoods sounds pretty optimistic by PNW standards. 20MBF/day? VERY optimistic. 

'Course, I'm talking from experience mostly in the Puget Trough and the Willamette Valley, so my judgment may not even accurately represent my region. Either way, though, this contract sounds like a recipe for going broke.


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## Gologit (May 16, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Normally, I don't hang out in the forestry forum, as that simply isn't what I do regularly. I came across a job listing for a "feller". Upon further inquiry, I was told:
> 
> "a faller is responsible for inspecting the area to be logged, estimating the BFT of logs he can cut from the stand of timber , and then falling the trees, de limbing and bucking the usable logs from them. There is a minimum quota of 5000 bft per 8 hours falling for the first 480 hours, and after the faller should be cutting in the 15000 - 20000 bft per 8 hour range."
> 
> ...



Interesting. Where does this come from? The "eight hour" thing puzzles me.


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## ryan_marine (May 16, 2010)

Only 3 times have I cut that much in an eight hour period. That is a heck of a lot of wood to cut and have ready for a skidder. Not unless your in to some timber that has large (48"+) dia. trees. I would love to get in to a stand of timber like that.

Ray


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## slowp (May 16, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Interesting. Where does this come from? The "eight hour" thing puzzles me.



This meaning that out here in the West, fallers are limited to a 6 hour day.


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## Gologit (May 16, 2010)

slowp said:


> This meaning that out here in the West, fallers are limited to a 6 hour day.



Yup, that's the tradition and it's a good one. Back East they must work a longer day.


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## fmaglin (May 16, 2010)

*61 trees*

Well, the last job I cut I had 61 trees to cut. I was able to have them all on the ground in 6-1/2 hours scaling out at 15000 bd ft; however, the conditions were right, flat ground, average dia about 26" and trees grouped fairly close together. Everything was skidded out the same day, bucked, loaded and sold. The outfit I did the falling for always pushed to get in and out as fast as possible, but this also created a few safety issues working under the gun all the time, and at my age I really could feel the toll it took on my body. So, to answer the original question,"Is This Worth Considering?" I'd say it depends on a lot of variables. If the trees are big, and grouped well on flat ground, maybe; but, as in my case with smaller trees, I think I'd pass on having to do it again.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (May 16, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Yup, that's the tradition and it's a good one. Back East they must work a longer day.



Weather and daylight permitting many (including myself) often try to swing 10 hour days, but I never work anything less than 8.


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## slowp (May 16, 2010)

In my state, 6 hour days are the law. Not supposed to work longer if you are falling.


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## dancan (May 16, 2010)

slowp said:


> In my state, 6 hour days are the law. Not supposed to work longer if you are falling.



Wow !
We're wide open up here , I've run out of daylight on a few jobs .... I'm sure quite a few others around here have had the same kind of days ....ummmm six hour work days (insert drooling smiles here) .


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## Gologit (May 16, 2010)

dancan said:


> Wow !
> We're wide open up here , I've run out of daylight on a few jobs .... I'm sure quite a few others around here have had the same kind of days ....ummmm six hour work days (insert drooling smiles here) .



 Come on out. We'll let you pack a 660 or a 390 with a 36" bar, wedges, gypo jugs, maybe a set of jacks, a few tools, along with your water and lunch of course up and down some of the terrain we work on. It's not really steep enough to be called vertical, not everywhere at least. Some of it isn't any steeper than a cow's face but it does tend to get brushy at times. Hell, we'll even let you commute two hours or more each way (for free), and get up early enough to be on the saw as soon as you can see the trees. As an extra added attraction we'll let you keep the same pace we do...start to finish...for that measly six hours. It's easy to stay ahead of the skidders if you just move at a good trot all day, don't get hung up, don't waste a lot of time falling down too much, eat your lunch while you're changing chains, and get your resting done while you're on your own time someplace else. All you have to worry about is keeping everything in lead and bucking stuff that wants to roll down the hill.
Look at the pictures TarzanTree posted where he's stretched out over a log bucking the far side. You'll get to do some of that. And you'll get really good at catty escape moves when everything breaks loose and gravity takes over. And after you're done...haul yourself on to the next one. And the next and the next and the next. Don't dawdle...if you're busheling you need to go hard to make any money. If you're day-waging you still have to go hard...the side rod wants wood on the ground...and lots of it. Oh, and there's springboards too. Yup we still use them. How's your knees? But hey, it's only for six hours, right?

So...come on out. Six hours a day? How hard can that be?


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## wvlogger (May 16, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Come on out. We'll let you pack a 660 or a 390 with a 36" bar, wedges, gypo jugs, maybe a set of jacks, a few tools, along with your water and lunch of course up and down some of the terrain we work on. It's not really steep enough to be called vertical, not everywhere at least. Some of it isn't any steeper than a cow's face but it does tend to get brushy at times. Hell, we'll even let you commute two hours or more each way (for free), and get up early enough to be on the saw as soon as you can see the trees. As an extra added attraction we'll let you keep the same pace we do...start to finish...for that measly six hours. It's easy to stay ahead of the skidders if you just move at a good trot all day, don't get hung up, don't waste a lot of time falling down too much, eat your lunch while you're changing chains, and get your resting done while you're on your own time someplace else. All you have to worry about is keeping everything in lead and bucking stuff that wants to roll down the hill.
> Look at the pictures TarzanTree posted where he's stretched out over a log bucking the far side. You'll get to do some of that. And you'll get really good at catty escape moves when everything breaks loose and gravity takes over. And after you're done...haul yourself on to the next one. And the next and the next and the next. Don't dawdle...if you're busheling you need to go hard to make any money. If you're day-waging you still have to go hard...the side rod wants wood on the ground...and lots of it. Oh, and there's springboards too. Yup we still use them. How's your knees? But hey, it's only for six hours, right?
> 
> So...come on out. Six hours a day? How hard can that be?



great post rep yeah when i can


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## slowp (May 16, 2010)

You might get to play on ground like this. It gets steeper below the yarder.


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## forestryworks (May 16, 2010)

well just any old f*e*ller can't produce that much BF but a F*a*ller sure could.


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## forestryworks (May 16, 2010)

slowp said:


> You might get to play on ground like this. It gets steeper below the yarder.



nice picture


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## joesawer (May 16, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Come on out. We'll let you pack a 660 or a 390 with a 36" bar, wedges, gypo jugs, maybe a set of jacks, a few tools, along with your water and lunch of course up and down some of the terrain we work on. It's not really steep enough to be called vertical, not everywhere at least. Some of it isn't any steeper than a cow's face but it does tend to get brushy at times. Hell, we'll even let you commute two hours or more each way (for free), and get up early enough to be on the saw as soon as you can see the trees. As an extra added attraction we'll let you keep the same pace we do...start to finish...for that measly six hours. It's easy to stay ahead of the skidders if you just move at a good trot all day, don't get hung up, don't waste a lot of time falling down too much, eat your lunch while you're changing chains, and get your resting done while you're on your own time someplace else. All you have to worry about is keeping everything in lead and bucking stuff that wants to roll down the hill.
> Look at the pictures TarzanTree posted where he's stretched out over a log bucking the far side. You'll get to do some of that. And you'll get really good at catty escape moves when everything breaks loose and gravity takes over. And after you're done...haul yourself on to the next one. And the next and the next and the next. Don't dawdle...if you're busheling you need to go hard to make any money.  If you're day-waging you still have to go hard...the side rod wants wood on the ground...and lots of it. Oh, and there's springboards too. Yup we still use them. How's your knees? But hey, it's only for six hours, right?
> 
> So...come on out. Six hours a day? How hard can that be?




Well said!

Then maintain your gear and grind your chains on your own time. 
I have worked a little longer but as a rule it has not been profitable. The only time it is is when the bureaucrats and ologists make you stand around instead of burning calories makin money.


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## 056 kid (May 16, 2010)

It all depends on the ground & the timber..


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## Oldtimer (May 16, 2010)

It wants to be some majestic massive hardwood trees and easy going (no pulp in the way, no thick brush) for one man with a saw to drop and limb AND buck 20K feet of logs a day. 
I just sent out a load of oak logs that scaled 3685', 62 logs on the truck.
That = 59 b/ft per log average. It wasn't small wood as NH oak goes, it was some 12" and a lot of 14", with some 20+" logs.
It averaged $540 per thousand feet, including the pallet.


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## logging22 (May 16, 2010)

8 to 10k a day here is a really good day. Some better than others. I have cut as much as 18k a day. And as little as 3k a day. Depends on the trees, layout, ground, all kinds of things. I wish i had trees that looked like the ones in the PNW. Those guys earn the money they make, no doubt. But different places means different things. 6 hours a day. That would be sweet. I just cant make enough money in 6. Gotta make it count when i can. Just my .02.


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## 056 kid (May 16, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> It wants to be some majestic massive hardwood trees and easy going (no pulp in the way, no thick brush) for one man with a saw to drop and limb AND buck 20K feet of logs a day.
> I just sent out a load of oak logs that scaled 3685', 62 logs on the truck.
> That = 59 b/ft per log average. It wasn't small wood as NH oak goes, it was some 12" and a lot of 14", with some 20+" logs.
> It averaged $540 per thousand feet, including the pallet.



Thats small wood even by east coast standards.


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## Oldtimer (May 17, 2010)

056 kid said:


> Thats small wood even by east coast standards.



Is it really? How many oak lots have you cut in NH?

Me, I've cut a few. And "Nice Oak" here is anything over 16" on the stump. 
30" on the stump is considered very large. Mind you, to get more than 2 grade logs from an oak tree here is rare. It just doesn't grow super tall and straight. 
There's bigger oak here, but it isn't for sale. Biggest I ever cut was big enough that I took it out in 3 pieces with the C5D: The butt, and 2 leaders. It was downright huge by any N/E standard. The log truck struggled to load it.
But, by and large, the average oak log sent to Canada from NH is 12" dia.
The pressure on our private woodland is such that most never gets to grow much beyond that size. That's why they buy 10" veneer oak here, that and the fact that young wood tends to be of a higher grade.


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## pdqdl (May 18, 2010)

Thanks guys.

You have largely confirmed what I thought. I would be superman to pull off 20K in Missouri on a daily basis.

8-10k sounded realistic. That's what I figured would be do-able, given decent conditions.


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## redprospector (May 19, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Come on out. We'll let you pack a 660 or a 390 with a 36" bar, wedges, gypo jugs, maybe a set of jacks, a few tools, along with your water and lunch of course up and down some of the terrain we work on. It's not really steep enough to be called vertical, not everywhere at least. Some of it isn't any steeper than a cow's face but it does tend to get brushy at times. Hell, we'll even let you commute two hours or more each way (for free), and get up early enough to be on the saw as soon as you can see the trees. As an extra added attraction we'll let you keep the same pace we do...start to finish...for that measly six hours. It's easy to stay ahead of the skidders if you just move at a good trot all day, don't get hung up, don't waste a lot of time falling down too much, eat your lunch while you're changing chains, and get your resting done while you're on your own time someplace else. All you have to worry about is keeping everything in lead and bucking stuff that wants to roll down the hill.
> Look at the pictures TarzanTree posted where he's stretched out over a log bucking the far side. You'll get to do some of that. And you'll get really good at catty escape moves when everything breaks loose and gravity takes over. And after you're done...haul yourself on to the next one. And the next and the next and the next. Don't dawdle...if you're busheling you need to go hard to make any money. If you're day-waging you still have to go hard...the side rod wants wood on the ground...and lots of it. Oh, and there's springboards too. Yup we still use them. How's your knees? But hey, it's only for six hours, right?
> 
> So...come on out. Six hours a day? How hard can that be?



Well said.
6 hours isn't the law here, but that's what we worked felling.
I did a little experiment when I worked for the mill. The 7th hour my production fell by almost 50%. The 8th hour I was producing less than 50% of what I did for the first 6 hours. Anything over 8 and I was really pissing up a well rope. I also found that working over 8 would affect production the next day.
When a man is giving everything he's got it only takes about 6 hours before it's all gone.

Andy


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## forestryworks (May 19, 2010)

the 6hrs is for good reason, your own safety. anything longer can be foolish in certain situations.


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## madhatte (May 20, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> the fact that young wood tends to be of a higher grade.



Q: is this because it has (had chance to accumulate) less defect? Does the tighter grain of older wood command a better price? I'm just asking because out here we sell the young stuff, but older definitely commands a higher price, regardless of species.


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## treemandan (May 20, 2010)

Just how steep is a cow's face?


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## slowp (May 20, 2010)

I have skied a run at Mt. Bachelor called Cow Face and it wasn't as steep as our Execution run, which I have not skied, or Mach, which I have skied badly.
Nor did they have rescue toboggans placed in strategic locations like some of the runs up in Beautiful British Columbia. 

I believe it depends on how the cow is positioning her head. No, I have not skied on a real cow's face. That would be cruel. 

Some of the clearcuts we used to have logging on were steep enough so whatever tree was cut would roll or shoot down to the bottom. High stumping would not hold the logs. There'd be the sound of the tree going over, then the sound of rolling and shifting logs. 

Now we have thinnings on steep ground.


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## Gologit (May 20, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Just how steep is a cow's face?



Plenty steep.


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## Oldtimer (May 20, 2010)

madhatte said:


> Q: is this because it has (had chance to accumulate) less defect?
> Yes, the young wood shoots for the canopy and doesn't develop limbs. Grows fast in the right conditions, so it tends to be a very high grade for that reason.
> Does the tighter grain of older wood command a better price? I'm just asking because out here we sell the young stuff, but older definitely commands a higher price, regardless of species.
> There's no distinction made for the age of wood here. The oldest wood the mills ever see is maybe 200 years old, and damn little of it.


We have 4th, 5th, and 6th generation forests here since the first settlers cleared the "old growth" forests 300 years ago. True "old growth" is very very scarce and protected. It's literally kept secret so the public doesn't go trample it under foot.


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## Humptulips (May 21, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Come on out. We'll let you pack a 660 or a 390 with a 36" bar, wedges, gypo jugs, maybe a set of jacks, a few tools, along with your water and lunch of course up and down some of the terrain we work on. It's not really steep enough to be called vertical, not everywhere at least. Some of it isn't any steeper than a cow's face but it does tend to get brushy at times. Hell, we'll even let you commute two hours or more each way (for free), and get up early enough to be on the saw as soon as you can see the trees. As an extra added attraction we'll let you keep the same pace we do...start to finish...for that measly six hours. It's easy to stay ahead of the skidders if you just move at a good trot all day, don't get hung up, don't waste a lot of time falling down too much, eat your lunch while you're changing chains, and get your resting done while you're on your own time someplace else. All you have to worry about is keeping everything in lead and bucking stuff that wants to roll down the hill.
> Look at the pictures TarzanTree posted where he's stretched out over a log bucking the far side. You'll get to do some of that. And you'll get really good at catty escape moves when everything breaks loose and gravity takes over. And after you're done...haul yourself on to the next one. And the next and the next and the next. Don't dawdle...if you're busheling you need to go hard to make any money. If you're day-waging you still have to go hard...the side rod wants wood on the ground...and lots of it. Oh, and there's springboards too. Yup we still use them. How's your knees? But hey, it's only for six hours, right?
> 
> So...come on out. Six hours a day? How hard can that be?



You know, I worked on the riggin' too many years to have any sympathy for cutters. Admit it you know you're all spoiled.


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## RVALUE (May 21, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Is it really? How many oak lots have you cut in NH?
> 
> Me, I've cut a few. And "Nice Oak" here is anything over 16" on the stump.
> 30" on the stump is considered very large. Mind you, to get more than 2 grade logs from an oak tree here is rare. It just doesn't grow super tall and straight.
> ...



The best lift of red oak I _ever_ got was 14 foot from NH. So close to perfect it would spoil a person. Beautiful stuff. Made some nice cabinets from it. Out of 2200 BF you could carry all the knots at once.


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## Gologit (May 21, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> You know, I worked on the riggin' too many years to have any sympathy for cutters. Admit it you know you're all spoiled.



 Maybe. But we don't mind. Besides, you know how important it is to keep the old-time traditions alive in this business. Six hours is fine with me.


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## RandyMac (May 21, 2010)

I knew a riggin' guy would speak up, but hey, without choppers, riggin' guys would be on the dole or growin' pot. One nice thing about being a faller, you don't have to ride in the crummy with those sweaty chokermen.
Little hardwoods, I thought second growth Redwoods were bad. With a few exceptions, long gone are the days where a multiple truck load trees were standard.


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## Humptulips (May 21, 2010)

Gologit said:


> Maybe. But we don't mind. Besides, you know how important it is to keep the old-time traditions alive in this business. Six hours is fine with me.



So just curious,when did the 6 hour day come in for cutters. I know the old hand bushelers worked 8 hours or even longer. My Dad mentioned he was busheling for Simpson in the early 50s and they worked 8. So when did it become an old time tradition.
I've done both and to tell you the truth I don't think you gain much by working 6 hour days. It seems like they always want you to work weekends and it just runs you down. Mostly on the riggin' it is 5 days a week and you get a chance to recharge. I needed it! I did work 6 9s and a half day sunday when I was in AK. You definetly lose high gear after a few months of that plus you get extremely grumpy.


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## Jacob J. (May 21, 2010)

I think I remember my grandpa saying they went over to six hour days in the mid 60's. There'd been a lot of accidents and worker's comp people were arguing that 8-hour days were just too long for fallers. Plus that was about the time that all the fallers had to buck their own wood. Just prior to that there were "bucking" crews who went in behind the fallers and bucked everything. So the work of "falling and bucking" was strenuous enough to dictate the shorter days.


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