# Today's youth!



## jefflovstrom (Dec 5, 2010)

We take applications all the time. I have noticed that alot of our youth is thinking they are worth more than 15 bucks an hour. I remember my first job was $1.90 an hour and I got a raise to $2.10 an hour and thout I was doing good. These kids today think they are deserving. You are dragging brush and cannot even back a chipper to the site and you want $15 an hour? After a little talk, I might hire him at $9.50. Bet he take's it. Any you guy's understand?
Jeff


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## TreEmergencyB (Dec 5, 2010)

its even worse when you know your worth at least 15 can climb prune right and back the chipper and only get 13


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 5, 2010)

Yeah, kinda a catch 22 if you think you are worth it. 
Jeff 
I wonder how your feeling? Peter Framptom, 1976.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 5, 2010)

TreEmergencyB said:


> its even worse when you know your worth at least 15 can climb prune right and back the chipper and only get 13



I am ready to start a thread on that if you want to, cause it is true!
Jeff


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## Slvrmple72 (Dec 5, 2010)

Sometimes you gotta take what you can get and be thankful. My 6yr old is happily clearing the front porch with the shovel I gave him as a gift right now as we get ready to bring in more firewood for the wood stove in the basement. He loves to help. Got him a kid's saddle for christmas to play in the trees with dad. I think the best gift I can give him is a good work ethic. He loves baking cookies in the kitchen with mom too!


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## TreeAce (Dec 5, 2010)

I thought everybody in CA made the big bucks but everything cost more ? Maybe its just rent and mortgage thats high . Just sayn that cuz around here 10 is starter pay with 15 being only for a GOOD dependable groundie...WITH A DRIVERS LICENSE .


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 5, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We take applications all the time. I have noticed that alot of our youth is thinking they are worth more than 15 bucks an hour. I remember my first job was $1.90 an hour and I got a raise to $2.10 an hour and thout I was doing good. These kids today think they are deserving. You are dragging brush and cannot even back a chipper to the site and you want $15 an hour? After a little talk, I might hire him at $9.50. Bet he take's it. Any you guy's understand?
> Jeff



You are right on the money..!! Everybody thinks they are worth the big bucks right away.. 

Even some of the best workers and climbers I have had over the year have issues.. most of the young guys today just don't think the same as in the 1970' and 80's. Some do though, and if you find one hang onto them if you can.


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## cowtipper (Dec 5, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We take applications all the time. I have noticed that alot of our youth is thinking they are worth more than 15 bucks an hour. I remember my first job was $1.90 an hour and I got a raise to $2.10 an hour and thout I was doing good. These kids today think they are deserving. You are dragging brush and cannot even back a chipper to the site and you want $15 an hour? After a little talk, I might hire him at $9.50. Bet he take's it. Any you guy's understand?
> Jeff



The key is how long ago was that? If you look at the cost of inflation, $1.90 hr in 1960 is $13.99 hr in 2010. 

Try out his inflation calculator, and see what you come up with.

http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html


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## banshee67 (Dec 5, 2010)

cowtipper said:


> The key is how long ago was that? If you look at the cost of inflation, $1.90 hr in 1960 is $13.99 hr in 2010.
> 
> Try out his inflation calculator, and see what you come up with.
> 
> http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html



lets not get all technical and bring things like facts into a conversation!
if he worked for $1.90 an hour 40+ years ago.. well then, damnit so should kids today!


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## GLOBOTREE (Dec 5, 2010)

*The Woodsman*

Man, i have twenty years now about 16 solid in the Tree~and you know I have the highest respect for the "oldtimers" who worked very hard to build the industry up to what it is today, we need to continue the tradition for the youths sake. I am self employed because i chose years ago to earn a weeks wages in a single monday morning. But, boys...i gotta say, times are gettin tough~i have seen myself working for 15/hr plenty, as we all know 15 is better than none. Also, these fellas that are worth 15 should have no problem gettin it, easily.I dont know, climbing a tree is just such a different task than any, each tree is different some pay and some dont. But every hour these guys are on the clock pays. There seems to be a load of work everywhere~ ??:chainsawguy:


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## cowtipper (Dec 5, 2010)

banshee67 said:


> lets not get all technical and bring things like facts into a conversation!
> if he worked for $1.90 an hour 40+ years ago.. well then, damnit so should kids today!



very will put...


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## lego1970 (Dec 6, 2010)

Here is my expenses per month. I'm not saying your wrong or right but just to break it down. Keep in mind, my p/u truck is paid off, my house is a clean and comfy but very small two bedroom house. No cable, no gas bill. My phone and internet is high but that's because I mostly truck and therefore need unlimitted services. Electric is monthly average for the year. Health insurance is a very crappy with extremely high deductible. Child support is $434, but then she pays health and dental insurance which is about $200, so again if I didn't have to pay child support but had to pay health insurance that would only save me $234 per month. A lot of expenses, I've forgot or didn't include. 

Mortgage, w/property tax and insurance, $696
Child Support $434
Health Insurance $189
Phone and internet $169
Electric $150
Water $35
p/u truck insurance $63
Food $280
Gas $400
Son's lunch money $50
Son's clothes, toys, misc school activities, $100
My clothes, gloves, boots, t-shirts $30

Total, $2596.00

$15 per hour at an average of 40 hours per week without even paying taxes
$2400.00

So before I even take out taxes, I'm -$196 in the hole. With taxes (about 27% for me) I'm already -$844 in the hole. 

Again that doesn't inculde everyday issues like, furnace breaks down, kid gets sick, room needs new paint, microwave quits working, truck needs a new tire, etc, etc. 

Then most (not all) of the tree companies want you to supply your own chainsaws, saddles, ropes, or get to use some unknown beat up nicked to death old rope of theirs. 

$15 per hour seems great when you started out so low, but in today's world and living standards, that's not really that much. I started out around $3.95 an hour (not doing tree work) but I was still living with my folks. That was about mid, late 80's. If a guy is still living with his folks then yes $15 per hour is great, but if he ain't, he's screwed. 

I will say this and then I'll shut up. When I take a job, I always try to give it my best and it does irk me when I see some greenhorn groundsmand and even supposed tree climbers leaning on tree or talking to his girlfriend while I'm up in the tree needing something. Having said that, sometimes I've gotten frustrated and gave up. As I get a little older (not old, I'm only 39 but just a little older then most of the guys I end up working with) I question why I still do tree work, as there is no retirement package and most the times (if I'm working for somebody else) I'm working my @ss off so the boss can live in a $300k home with a goodlooking wife, lake house, boat, etc, etc. I swear some of the boss's I've worked for would ask me to literaly wipe their @ss if they thought they could legally get away with it. Maybe even make my 8 year old son their slave....if they thought they could get away with it. Most of the tree work I do anymore is by myself, besides I'm not fast enough in a tree to keep up with most tree companies, although I can out drag most guys in their early 20's no problem. 

Ok, sorry I'm rambling now.


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## mikewhite85 (Dec 6, 2010)

TreeAce said:


> I thought everybody in CA made the big bucks but everything cost more ? Maybe its just rent and mortgage thats high . Just sayn that cuz around here 10 is starter pay with 15 being only for a GOOD dependable groundie...WITH A DRIVERS LICENSE .



Worker's comp is insane in CA. Unless you are a big company that has the ability to do the jobs no one else can do, you can't afford to pay your guys a lot, especially considering the incredible amount of competition, illegals, and hacks. Just the other day someone outbid me by half the price... and I thought my price was low! I imagine a lot of groundies must get paid 8 per hour cash for their bosses to bid like that.

I am definitely thankful for the job I have. I run a small outfit with relatively small expenses. I can't imagine having to pay a large crew to work all week in this kind of economy. Hats off to you guys!


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## DangerTree (Dec 6, 2010)

Up here in the Shuswap the labor pool is the pits. I have a hard time hiring green guys at $20 an hour! Not kidding and they complain it's not enough!! I have to babysit at $20 bucks an hour and watch them break my stuff. I keep asking for the same things over and over " don't go under the tree when you here me cutting you dummy" and stop talking to the client and start dragging branches for the last time!!! You pot smokin hippie get off the crack pipe and put down that beer pleez fill my saw. You would not have a dull saw if you would just stop cutting that rock sparky!! Just get another chain on your way to the crack pipe.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 6, 2010)

DangerTree said:


> Up here in the Shuswap the labor pool is the pits. I have a hard time hiring green guys at $20 an hour! Not kidding and they complain it's not enough!! I have to babysit at $20 bucks an hour and watch them break my stuff. I keep asking for the same things over and over " don't go under the tree when you here me cutting you dummy" and stop talking to the client and start dragging branches for the last time!!! You pot smokin hippie get off the crack pipe and put down that beer pleez fill my saw. You would not have a dull saw if you would just stop cutting that rock sparky!! Just get another chain on your way to the crack pipe.



JEEZ!! and I thought I had problems! I feel pretty good after that! Talking to a kid today about coming on for a while, This is my problem, I dont need him to climb very much, but he wants to work, he says he dont care what he does, so I figure, if he wants to stick around and do ground work, not just be a hired gun, then he is gonna have to take a cut. I'm not gonna pay a climbers wage when he is grinding a stump. I think he will be good with it, as he wants hours, period. He don't care if he doesn't climb, just wants to work. So I am thinking 13-14 with at least 30 hours a week(winter), or the 20 as a gun a couple time a week


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## TreEmergencyB (Dec 6, 2010)

I am in need of the money thats why i stay there for 13.50hr, its the comany i work for is the problem our 'lead' climber only makes 14hr and we run a 2 man crew 90% of the time. So im sure the owner is doing well considering we avg. about 1200/day easily with just the 2 of us. Really looking for a new company as i love tree work, but ima bout to take my wifes unlce up and the lineman thing for Allegheny power but im not sure if i need schooling b4 i can start that. From what ive heard tree co. just dont pay around here.

BTW im 24 with 5y exp. 3 climbing and im the best dam ground guy i know


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## TreeAce (Dec 6, 2010)

Lego1970....groundmen dont have a morgtage . But they DEF have childsupport ! Around here atleast..groundies ethier live at home or with a women who is most likely on the system . Or simply with a room mate . It sounds like you have your act together and trying to make a comparision thats not accurate . Its ovb that someone with your bills can't work for 15 . I know of lots of people who would jump at the chance to make 15 n hour. Most of these people have spent YEARS making a wreck of there life . I do know of some young guys who live at home (good place for em for now) and and are good workers and will raise above 10-15 hour range in due time . As long as they make good life choices . Or atleast stay away from some OBV bad choices like getting DWI and smokin to much dope.


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## arborsoldier (Dec 6, 2010)

lego1970 said:


> Here is my expenses per month. I'm not saying your wrong or right but just to break it down. Keep in mind, my p/u truck is paid off, my house is a clean and comfy but very small two bedroom house. No cable, no gas bill. My phone and internet is high but that's because I mostly truck and therefore need unlimitted services. Electric is monthly average for the year. Health insurance is a very crappy with extremely high deductible. Child support is $434, but then she pays health and dental insurance which is about $200, so again if I didn't have to pay child support but had to pay health insurance that would only save me $234 per month. A lot of expenses, I've forgot or didn't include.
> 
> Mortgage, w/property tax and insurance, $696
> Child Support $434
> ...



WOW!!! You only pay $434 for Child Support? Lucky!!!! I pay $600!!! LOL but true.

All kidding aside, great start of a thread Jefflovestrom!!! I agree with many of you. The youth coming through the door do have high expectations of their worth. We recently started a guy with "some" climbing experience and an actual valid drivers license. More often than not, that is a tough thing to get. 

Let's face it, it is an employers market right now. And I happen to be one of them. I make the hire and fire decisions for where I work, unfortunately we have been in Layoff mode as of lately. We are still running with 4 three man crews with hopes of trudging through the winter with the leaned out crew.

As far as pay, I have seen it all over the spectrum. Some companies pay well while others right down the road do not. To all of you who feel you are under paid, keep your head up. Get as many qualifications as you can. Walking into an interview with a CDL, Certified Arborist and perhaps even a current CPR/FA and EHAP would make you a much more valuable prospect to me. If you are done learning, you are dead.


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## TreeAce (Dec 6, 2010)

Bout 20 years ago I was sitten in a bar with the regulars after work and an old timer told me.."when I was your age I started tree work I hired on at 1.10 an hour!" I thought about that . At that time I was makin 10 because my climbing skills where comin along nicely,had a DL, and was already getten my feet wet with being a crew leader . Anyway...I politely asked this man( who I had a huge respect for) how much a beer cost in this very bar at that time ? He shrugged his shoulders and said 10 cents . "oh" is all I said . I had just paid 1.75 for a beer . Do the math on that one .


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 6, 2010)

i just wish there was some logging up here in ohio....... id love to make $15/hr......... i agree with both sides on this, the owners wanna hire on at a lower wage b/c its more money they save, but i dont wanna work my butt off for $10/hr when gas prices are outragous, and the cost of living is insane any more,

i have no actual logging experiance, other then dropping massive trees just for us and other ppl that ask, so id take a job at $10/hr to start out w/ out thinking about it, but for ones that have done it, i can see why they would turn it down.........

i make $12.50/hr building truss's from the lumber you guys cut! i hate my job i really want to find something in the logging industry.


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## TreeAce (Dec 6, 2010)

Where is Hicksville? I would assume it's near WV....LOL:hmm3grin2orange: OMG I crack myself up.....sorry man. But seriously....where abouts are u in the buckeye state?


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 6, 2010)

up in the nw corner of the state, 1.5hrs from toledo ohio and 25min from ft wayne indiana, basically i can be in indiana in 2min and michigan in 35min.


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## Jumper (Dec 6, 2010)

Here anything less than $15 hour you are either hiring trouble or someone that will be leaving once they latch on to someone paying more. 

I am glad I do not have to pay that $189 in health care premiums directly! And my taxes are about 27% as well.

My first job in Montreal paid $2.40 an hour in the summer of 1975, and I joined the Forces two years after that for the princely sum of $365 a month. After my taxes, rations and quarters were paid for I had $90 twice a month for a pay cheque. But as someone else pointed out, I recall beer was .25 or thereabouts at the time.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 6, 2010)

In my opinion a lot of the unrealistic wage expectations of many youth come from the high tech outfits like EA (Electronic Arts), Microsoft, Apple etc, where kids right out of school (who have the talent) start at $80K+ and have all these pimped up places to work. You've seen the pictures, the pool tables, video games, basketball hoops etc etc etc.

That's where all the highly motivated youth are going. 30-40 years ago, they may have headed into the tree biz, but post-secondary education is a way more accessible now.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 6, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> In my opinion a lot of the unrealistic wage expectations of many youth come from the high tech outfits like EA (Electronic Arts), Microsoft, Apple etc, where kids right out of school (who have the talent) start at $80K+ and have all these pimped up places to work. You've seen the pictures, the pool tables, video games, basketball hoops etc etc etc.
> 
> That's where all the highly motivated youth are going. 30-40 years ago, they may have headed into the tree biz, but post-secondary education is a way more accessible now.



:agree2:
Jeff


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## mr. holden wood (Dec 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> We take applications all the time. I have noticed that alot of our youth is thinking they are worth more than 15 bucks an hour. I remember my first job was $1.90 an hour and I got a raise to $2.10 an hour and thout I was doing good. These kids today think they are deserving. You are dragging brush and cannot even back a chipper to the site and you want $15 an hour? After a little talk, I might hire him at $9.50. Bet he take's it. Any you guy's understand?
> Jeff



Nine fifty an hour would be fair in Somalia for a groundsman. San Diego is the eighth biggest city in America with a very high cost of living. Why would anyone risk there life, do extremely strenuous manual labor and be responsible for someones life for nine fifty an hour. Im constally amazed why owner/operators complain about finding good groundsman yet are only willing to pay minimum wage.


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## ArborCore (Dec 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You are dragging brush and cannot even back a chipper to the site and you want $15 an hour? After a little talk, I might hire him at $9.50. Bet he take's it. Any you guy's understand?
> Jeff



Cost of living must b a lot higher there in Cali... I climb everyday for $15 - $25/hr. don't work by the hour though,l that's just what the math works out to at the moment...


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## ArborCore (Dec 7, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> up in the nw corner of the state, 1.5hrs from toledo ohio and 25min from ft wayne indiana, basically i can be in indiana in 2min and michigan in 35min.



NE Ohio Olympyc... doesn't the tree svc. industry in ohio SUCK... lets all petition for manditory licensing, registration, & certifications... (Agree/Disagree) ?


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## DangerTree (Dec 7, 2010)

I am the owner of Danger Tree Service and in the winter up here work is thin. I don't take the winter off I try and get work on the rigs ( which is what I am doing right now in Edmonton) because I can make better money than sitting around. And that is the main difference, if you want to make 15 bucks an hour go for it. Why not make some real money for the slow season be a man bust some ass on the rigs. They are hiring strongly this year $5000 every two weeks plus 150 a day living out allowance and thats to start (lease hand). It aint rocket science you just have to want to work. HARD That seems to be what this young high tech generation lacks, good work ethics. They need a gym and games room oh yeah what about the nappy thing some companies are doing! What a crock a s..t that is!


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 7, 2010)

ArborCore said:


> NE Ohio Olympyc... doesn't the tree svc. industry in ohio SUCK... lets all petition for manditory licensing, registration, & certifications... (Agree/Disagree) ?



yeah it sucks, theres only a few small mills around here, if i could find a decent paying job id move me my fiance and our son in a heart beat, ohio is goin down hill fast but i guess so is the rest of the us........


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## TreeAce (Dec 7, 2010)

ArborCore said:


> NE Ohio Olympyc... doesn't the tree svc. industry in ohio SUCK... lets all petition for manditory licensing, registration, & certifications... (Agree/Disagree) ?



Be careful what you wish for .What you are suggesting could work against you IMO.The more overhead a company has the tougher it is to pay well . Registering with cities already costs me plenty !


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 7, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> San Diego is the eighth biggest city in America



Actually it is the 6th largest in America according to online stats ..and 15th largest in North America.

But your point is well taken.

I guess the issue is.. owners don't necessarily want to be cheap (some might)..

But.. they have overhead costs (vehicles, equipment, maintenance, insurance, WSIB, taxes, telephone, etc, etc) and they have sometimes unforeseen expenses beyond those. 

If they want to bid a job and actually get work.. then there is only so much room in the equation to pay the workers. Believe me, I have seen jobs where the climber had more out of it at the end of the day than did I.. Now that is not the norm.. but *&%$ happens. (in fact if you added in the extra hours at shop, working on books, etc.. then a good climber can likely beat me many days ! )

It is easy to complain when you don't see the expenses.. but sometimes taking home a paycheck without the added costs and headaches is worthwhile.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 7, 2010)

ArborCore said:


> NE Ohio Olympyc... doesn't the tree svc. industry in ohio SUCK... lets all petition for manditory licensing, registration, & certifications... (Agree/Disagree) ?



Could go either way. May make your overhead even higher..

May get rid of some hacks.. but then who is to say that they still will not exist illegally? If somebody hires them.. pays them cash.. who is going to know. Ok some may get caught.. but it won't necessarily improve the overall situation. 

On the other hand, over regulation by somebody sitting behind a desk can cause a whole lot of new issues you never even dreamed about. A lot of regulations are made by folks who never did the job, and frankly do not have a clue on how to regulate it properly.


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## ArborCore (Dec 7, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Could go either way. May make your overhead even higher..
> 
> May get rid of some hacks.. but then who is to say that they still will not exist illegally? If somebody hires them.. pays them cash.. who is going to know. Ok some may get caught.. but it won't necessarily improve the overall situation.
> 
> On the other hand, over regulation by somebody sitting behind a desk can cause a whole lot of new issues you never even dreamed about. A lot of regulations are made by folks who never did the job, and frankly do not have a clue on how to regulate it properly.



Valid point... maybe a tree svc union is what we need. I'd start one, but don't feel like going down like Jimmy Hoffa.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Actually it is the 6th largest in America according to online stats ..and 15th largest in North America.
> 
> But your point is well taken.
> 
> ...



Yup, and figure you get to the yard at 6:30am and load up. Leave for the job about 6:45am and get on our Cali hiways and get to the job at 8:15-8:30am and take and hour lunch from 10:30 to 11:30 and leave the job by 2pm to be back in the yard by 3pm. How many hours are you working? They get 8 hours every day and time starts and ends at the yard.
Jeff


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## treeman75 (Dec 7, 2010)

I pay my guys from time we leave the yard and when we are done with the last job. We stop and have a beer once in a while. I have to pick up one and drop him off too, no DL. He is a good climber and worker.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

treeman75 said:


> I pay my guys from time we leave the yard and when we are done with the last job. We stop and have a beer once in a while. I have to pick up one and drop him off too, no DL. He is a good climber and worker.



Alrighty then, cool. Except, I don't have a beer with the guy's. It's kinda weird, I have a guy (foreman, isa cert. arb, tcia ctsp, and have known for 23 year's). I was a contract climber then (we like to call it 'free-lance'), I kinda stayed around and became his foreman in 1987. We hooked back up a few years ago and now he works for us and is our safety guy. I am CTSP also, but he is who holds our safety meetings every week. We used to party together long ago , but now it's like we only want to see each other at work, not socially. I guess what I am saying is having a beer with your guy's could leave you vulnerable.
Jeff


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## treeman75 (Dec 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Alrighty then, cool. Except, I don't have a beer with the guy's. It's kinda weird, I have a guy (foreman, isa cert. arb, tcia ctsp, and have known for 23 year's). I was a contract climber then (we like to call it 'free-lance'), I kinda stayed around and became his foreman in 1987. We hooked back up a few years ago and now he works for us and is our safety guy. I am CTSP also, but he is who holds our safety meetings every week. We used to party together long ago , but now it's like we only want to see each other at work, not socially. I guess what I am saying is having a beer with your guy's could leave you vulnerable.
> Jeff



Ya I see what you mean.


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## freeweight (Dec 7, 2010)

considering tree work is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world ....$15??

is that with health insurance,hope so

think of what your life is worth before saying what sombody should get helping YOU make money....

like the gy said about living in todays world expenses etc 15$ isnt much at all 

my uncle who used to be at the top of alot of companies list for who they wanted to climb for them, looked into a job with a large tree company/lineclearer and considering he had over 20 years of experience climbing and with tree service in general got offered a LAUGHABLE amount from them


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## Jumper (Dec 7, 2010)

Most I ever made in this biz was $12 an hour, which is part of the reason I moved on. And I had a drivers' license, my own vehicle, much of my own equipment, was not a drunk or a drug user, and showed up on time, unlike MANY of the people I worked with!

I would not work for someone that did not pay start/end at the yard. What if you had a bad accident while on the road, with ie driving or as a pax in their vehicle?? You would be out of luck with comp for that!

Someone here offered me the princely sum of $13 an hour and I went to another industry and got $17.50. But someone must be hiring on at those wages (ie drunks, druggies, welfare cases and retards), otherwise they would not be offering them.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

freeweight said:


> considering tree work is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world ....$15??
> 
> is that with health insurance,hope so
> 
> ...




Hey Idiot! It is a groundie working 4.5 to 5 hours a day and getting paid for 8!
He dont even feed a chipper or drive a vehicle! If I need a flagger, he's up!
He dont touch a saw. He still looks pretty when he goes home! Yeah, we pay for his uniform and cleaning! Wake the hell up!
Jeff


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## mr. holden wood (Dec 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hey Idiot! It is a groundie working 4.5 to 5 hours a day and getting paid for 8!
> He dont even feed a chipper or drive a vehicle! If I need a flagger, he's up!
> He dont touch a saw. He still looks pretty when he goes home! Yeah, we pay for his uniform and cleaning! Wake the hell up!
> Jeff



I'm not looking to turn this into a employee vs employer argument but it seems to be heading that way. Drive time is not a employee benefit, riding around or driving a chip truck in traffic sucks and is definitely work. 
It's hard to imagine you have a groundman that doesn't feed a chipper or run a saw , if thats the case it's more youre fault then his. I think fifteen an hour is the minimum a quality groundsman should make. You can find people that will work for less but you will always get what you pay for. Saving a couple bucks dosent seem worth cycling through employee's and offering low quality work in my opinion.


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## Jumper (Dec 7, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I'm not looking to turn this into a employee vs employer argument but it seems to be heading that way. Drive time is not a employee benefit, riding around or driving a chip truck in traffic sucks and is definitely work.
> It's hard to imagine you have a groundman that doesn't feed a chipper or run a saw , if thats the case it's more youre fault then his. I think fifteen an hour is the minimum a quality groundsman should make. You can find people that will work for less but you will always get what you pay for. Saving a couple bucks dosent seem worth cycling through employee's and offering low quality work in my opinion.



Well put!


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## freeweight (Dec 7, 2010)

got a feeling your an @sshole to your workers....and you hired a guy to just stand around?? its getting deep in here haha

you saw a chance to save money and took it,dont beat around the bush ,might as well got a day worker for 5bucks an hour,but whatever

you said he thought 15 bucks an hour wasnt good enough,so you implied that was the wage you offered so lowering him below 15....saves you money

im assuming there is no health insurance ,at least medical?

like i said think of what YOU would work for in this day an age,simple fact is this isnt 20 years ago ,you break a hundred your lucky to get home with a twenty from it


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I'm not looking to turn this into a employee vs employer argument but it seems to be heading that way. Drive time is not a employee benefit, riding around or driving a chip truck in traffic sucks and is definitely work.
> It's hard to imagine you have a groundman that doesn't feed a chipper or run a saw , if thats the case it's more youre fault then his. I think fifteen an hour is the minimum a quality groundsman should make. You can find people that will work for less but you will always get what you pay for. Saving a couple bucks dosent seem worth cycling through employee's and offering low quality work in my opinion.



Well, mr. Holden, I don't take a guy that never fed a chipper and make him do it the first day. It may take a full year before he is signed off as a qualified ground-man. After that, If I am too much of a hard -a s s , he will leave with a great wealth of knowledge and get his 15 an hour or stay with me. I will take my chance on that. Even if he don't stay, he will remember.
Jeff 
ISA.cert.#WE-7624A
TCIA-CTSP #519


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## Jumper (Dec 7, 2010)

lego1970 said:


> Here is my expenses per month. I'm not saying your wrong or right but just to break it down. Keep in mind, my p/u truck is paid off, my house is a clean and comfy but very small two bedroom house. No cable, no gas bill. My phone and internet is high but that's because I mostly truck and therefore need unlimitted services. Electric is monthly average for the year. Health insurance is a very crappy with extremely high deductible. Child support is $434, but then she pays health and dental insurance which is about $200, so again if I didn't have to pay child support but had to pay health insurance that would only save me $234 per month. A lot of expenses, I've forgot or didn't include.
> 
> Mortgage, w/property tax and insurance, $696
> Child Support $434
> ...



Not rambling at all-this is very well put together budget, and reflect exactly how $15 an hour goes in today's economic reality which especially if you live alone is not far! You are lucky you live in an area where housing is so inexpensive. And your vehicle insurance is dirt cheap, prolly because you do not live in a high crime city, and are a responsible driver. I see no money there whatsoever for recreation, alcohol (not that one has to drink but a few beers a week is a nice treat), your food bills are rock bottom, and as you said you don't have cable.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

Oh Canada!!
Jeff


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2010)

I have always belived that the obvious evolution with the younger generations is attributed to a parent's philosophy which is that the parent's objective is to make life better, easier, and richer for the kids than the parents had it. Plus if you smoked what the younger generations are smoking you would not be so apt to break a sweat working either.
Its all evolution. I have been fighting it for awhile myself but have always known it to be enevitable. Its a shame the Mexicans are so cheaply handy cause if they weren't maybe guys like you and me could argue for a better wage but speaking of evolution and Mexicans; I guess its been since the dawn of reason when one group of men decided to enslave another cause the one group really wasn't that interested in doing any actuall work.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 7, 2010)

treemandan said:


> I have always belived that the obvious evolution with the younger generations is attributed to a parent's philosophy which is that the parent's objective is to make life better, easier, and richer for the kids than the parents had it. Plus if you smoked what the younger generations are smoking you would not be so apt to break a sweat working either.
> Its all evolution. I have been fighting it for awhile myself but have always known it to be enevitable. Its a shame the Mexicans are so cheaply handy cause if they weren't maybe guys like you and me could argue for a better wage but speaking of evolution and Mexicans; I guess its been since the dawn of reason when one group of men decided to enslave another cause the one group really wasn't that interested in doing any actuall work.



I know there is a message in there somewhere, Dan!! 
Jeff


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## Jumper (Dec 7, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Oh Canada!!
> Jeff




...our home and native land....

...the true north strong and free.....

...God keep our land, glorious and free.....

...O Canada! Where pines and maples grow 
Great prairies spread and lordly rivers flow.....


Your point is??


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## DangerTree (Dec 8, 2010)

If you guys are all making #### for money why not go back to school. Get a job you can be good at. No body should be eating bark in this business. The guy who is paying you is ripping you off plain and simple. He makes 1200 a day and you make 100 a day. And you know how to do it so who is to blame for the crappy money? You. Take some initiative be your own boss blow these clowns off and do it on your own!:chainsawguy:


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## TreeAce (Dec 8, 2010)

I got a great idea!!!!! lets just start all groundsmen at 15 hour and move em up to 17 in a few months and then aftera few years make it 22 an hour!!! And then lets invest in some nice freakn chairs to put in the shop CUZ EVERBODYS GONNA BE SITTIN THERE and not workin cuz I KNOW I won't get anyjobs that still make em worth doin. The HO in this area aren't gonna pay much more than they are now . They just wont trim the trees. PERIOD , just that simple.


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## TreEmergencyB (Dec 9, 2010)

DangerTree said:


> If you guys are all making #### for money why not go back to school. Get a job you can be good at. No body should be eating bark in this business. The guy who is paying you is ripping you off plain and simple. He makes 1200 a day and you make 100 a day. And you know how to do it so who is to blame for the crappy money? You. Take some initiative be your own boss blow these clowns off and do it on your own!:chainsawguy:



If i had the money to start my own i would. I mean i got a pick up climbing gear and a chainsaw or 2 thats all it takes right? :monkey:


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## DangerTree (Dec 11, 2010)

Sorta, You need at the very least,
Comfy climbing boots VIBERG Lineman great boot!
Weaver double D harness (not light but durable and cheapish)
200' 3/4" bull rope ( for yanking with the truckypoo )
2- 1/2" good quality kern mantle climbing ropes
1- 1/2" sturdy utility rope
100' 1" tubular webbing ( cut into random lenghts for slings ) use tape knot!
6 GOOD locking Caribiners ( screw lock easy w/ one hand )
2 -Rescue 8 Devices (Awesome learn how to use one properly) one for rappelling and one for load lowering ground guy.
10- sport beeners for rock climbing ( use w/ slings) no people below load!!! as no locking feature they are quicker, get bent gates wider opening
Leg irons ( they all suck to wear so get whatever) 
Hardhat w/ screw lock and chin strap, Visor or safety glasses
Cutting pants/chaps
Knot book ( If you don't know Knots tie LOTS )!
Underwear ( clean, you will need space for the s..t you scare out of ya!
Some balls ( A decent pair of good sized balls really helps ) 
a shirt ( no time for impressing the ladies when you poop your pants )
An insurance policy ( you need something to wipe the poop of with )
A vehicle too stretch that fine 3/4" rope with, do not attempt to stretch the 1/2" rope w/ a 1ton truck they are simply not designed for that application I will kill you myself if I catch you! Remember 1/2' service lines MAY be used for repelling- do not over yank the 1/2 inch rope do I make myself clear on that? Clients ( all this is pointless with no clients )
Barenecks Tree book if you don't know #### about tree work

Well it's a short list but I figure you could make a living with just that crap. You can fit comfortably in your grannies Ford Fiesta and yer of to the rodeo!


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## prentice110 (Dec 11, 2010)

DangerTree said:


> Sorta, You need at the very least,
> Comfy climbing boots VIBERG Lineman great boot!
> Weaver double D harness (not light but durable and cheapish)
> 200' 3/4" bull rope ( for yanking with the truckypoo )
> ...



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeAce (Dec 11, 2010)

LMFAO ....better just buy the whole 600ft spool of 3/4 .


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## tree md (Dec 11, 2010)

I hired a 19 year old back in October. Was very pleasantly surprised at his work ethic and his intelligence. He works his butt off. I had to get on his ass about that cell phone a time or two but we have come to an understanding about that.

Very surprising to me, most young guys I have hired aren't worth a crap. Work just is not a priority to most of them. 

I had another 19 year old a few years back who I had learning to climb. He worked OK but couldn't keep himself out of trouble.


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## TreeAce (Dec 11, 2010)

Don't even get me goin on those cell phones!!! I let a guy go over the summer for texting to much ...just couldn't stay off that phone . Always worried what his girl was doin I think .


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## tree md (Dec 11, 2010)

You got it. He is dating a little hottie, or was, they broke up a week or two ago. He can't stand to not know what's going on with her every moment and was constantly trying to call and text her. I had to lay the law down about the phone. I don't chit chat with girls on my cell phone at work and will not tolerate it out of my workers. When I get a call from a girlfriend I ask them what do you want, I'm working.


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

i text at work if were slow, but other then that, im workin my butt off, but guys getting the same pay or close to it w/ alot less know how are just messin around or sittin around waitin for me to do the work.


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## TreeAce (Dec 11, 2010)

Unless u r a passenger riding in a truck there is no such thing as slow enough for texting , IMO. And in fact...riding in the truck is a good time for asking questions and practicing knots . Atleast for some people who have alot to learn .


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

you dont do my job,......... when we are slow, we clean our equipt, once we're done w/ that we clean the building, when thats done, no joke you sit there and bs w/ your buddies, even the boss's stand there and do nothing, but i work for a multi-million dollar company.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> you dont do my job,......... when we are slow, we clean our equipt, once we're done w/ that we clean the building, when thats done, no joke you sit there and bs w/ your buddies, even the boss's stand there and do nothing, but i work for a multi-million dollar company.



I think you are an Idiot! We take care of our equiptment and building everyday. That doesn't count on a production report. So what you are saying is that your company (multi-million) is paying you to not work. You certainly are stupid for being proud of being a non-productive member of our society!
Jeff


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

i think your internet cowboy, i think you must be one of those guys that acts like he's a hard worker, your pri a boss that takes all the credit for his crews work, i work hard unless there is nothing to do, i cant just go home, that makes no sence, when there is no work there is no work if our saw is down for any time at all then we run out of wood then we have nothing to build, we cant go home b/c eventually the saw will catch back up, but until then we have nothing to do, and i will bet anything your building is nothing like ours.........


but im sure you've never just sat down for 10 min and bs'd w/ your buddies at work on the clock or anything............


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> i think your internet cowboy, i think you must be one of those guys that acts like he's a hard worker, your pri a boss that takes all the credit for his crews work, i work hard unless there is nothing to do, i cant just go home, that makes no sence, when there is no work there is no work if our saw is down for any time at all then we run out of wood then we have nothing to build, we cant go home b/c eventually the saw will catch back up, but until then we have nothing to do, and i will bet anything your building is nothing like ours.........
> 
> 
> but im sure you've never just sat down for 10 min and bs'd w/ your buddies at work on the clock or anything............



Like I said, you sound stupid. You really should do your homework before you assume something. I will help ya. 

Jeff Lovstrom
ISA Cert#WE-7624A
TCIA CTSP #519
www.urbantreecare.com

BTW, I got a great crew!


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## TreeAce (Dec 11, 2010)

My bad...I thought u did tree service . I don't know anything about working a saw mill . I got confused because we were talkn about people doing "Commercial Tree Care and Climbing"


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

i just said you had a crew man? and im not gonna lie 1 bit, i dont know what all those cert.'s are, around here we dont get the opertunity to do logging, i wish but we dont, 

i seriously think you took what i was saying the wrong way, i didnt mean that i sit there and text and text and text, i text if i have an emergency or if i have business coming into my shop, i dont do trees for a living, i build truss's full time and started my own business working on diesel trucks especially performance diesels,

there are guys that i work w/ that will text non-stop even when we are busy pumping out truss's so i have to work twice as hard to build what they should be helping me do,

but when our auto saw goes down theres really nothing we can do, 

but im not here to impress every one, i just got on here to look for a bigger saw, usually im on diesel forums not saw forums........... you thinkin im an idiot doesnt make any difference to me the fact that i stayed at my job proves im an idiot haha....


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

TreeAce said:


> My bad...I thought u did tree service . I don't know anything about working a saw mill . I got confused because we were talkn about people doing "Commercial Tree Care and Climbing"



i understand, i really have no business even in this thread, its just that the tree business has been something i've been interested in for a long time, i love cutting trees........


i actually dont work at a mill either, i get the wood after it comes from the mill, i build custom truss's.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

TreeAce said:


> My bad...I thought u did tree service . I don't know anything about working a saw mill . I got confused because we were talkn about people doing "Commercial Tree Care and Climbing"



That is what I thought too! Sorry dude!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> i just said you had a crew man? and im not gonna lie 1 bit, i dont know what all those cert.'s are, around here we dont get the opertunity to do logging, i wish but we dont,
> 
> i seriously think you took what i was saying the wrong way, i didnt mean that i sit there and text and text and text, i text if i have an emergency or if i have business coming into my shop, i dont do trees for a living, i build truss's full time and started my own business working on diesel trucks especially performance diesels,
> 
> ...




You should of said that in the beginning so we would not have to feel bad and say sorry!
Jeff


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

guys i really didnt mean to cause any problems.......

im here to learn, sorry for the problems......

i absolutely love to be in the woods and love falling trees,


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> i understand, i really have no business even in this thread, its just that the tree business has been something i've been interested in for a long time, i love cutting trees........
> 
> 
> i actually dont work at a mill either, i get the wood after it comes from the mill, i build custom truss's.



Hang around man! you might like it. sorry for the bad start.
Jeff


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

nothing to be sorry for, just a miss-understanding thats all, 

i no joke havent really been on the diesel forums that i have thousand and thousands of posts on since i joined here! im learning alot!


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## TreeAce (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> i understand, i really have no business even in this thread, its just that the tree business has been something i've been interested in for a long time, i love cutting trees........
> 
> 
> i actually dont work at a mill either, i get the wood after it comes from the mill, i build custom truss's.



It's all good . Just a misunderstanding . Texting or talking on phone when we are not on break is a touchy subject with me...I HATE IT!! Unless it's important and that should be rare. You are welcome in this thread as far as I am concerned or any other for that matter. But maybe when you comment make sure people don't assume you work tree service . Just a thought .


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

haha i put it in my sig, so no one should get confused


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## Yoopermike (Dec 11, 2010)

I drive truck local for a company for 12 bucks an hour and support a fam of 4 and my 14 mo old son is mentally handicapped...i bust my ass to provide for em, im 26 and id jump at the chance for 15 an hour especially being an arborist of sorts anyone looking for a worker in my area.. count me in  lol .kinda chaps my ass a bit that someone fresh out of high school wants more money with no experience ive worked hard just to get the ####ty 12 an hour im getting now! not to mention that om averaging 30-35hrs a week! ok im done ranting!


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

im sorry to hear that, what really gets me is there is good hardworking ppl like you and i out there making around the same money when there are guys i work with that are paid the same as me $12.50 who dont work, 

i am 20yrs old, i have a 2yr old son, do the math, i had fun in school haha, but i've been w/ his mom for almost 4yrs now were engaged, i work hard to make the money since her job doesnt pay much, i work stupid hours and alot of them, i also started my own business and its finally starting to take off...... 

but what bothers me is that half the guys i work w/ waste most of thier money on beer and drugs, that i think is a waste of a good job for some one who will actually contribute.


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## Yoopermike (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> im sorry to hear that, what really gets me is
> 
> but what bothers me is that half the guys i work w/ waste most of thier money on beer and drugs, that i think is a waste of a good job for some one who will actually contribute.



I had a buddy like that.. were not buddies anymore now he mooches from the govt and using the govts money to buy his drugs n beer! hes fully capable to work but is too lazy! now that pisses me off!!! not to mention that he has 2 kids already and 1 on the way.


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

ppl on wel-fare need to be fixed, we fix cats and dogs b/c puppy mills, why not fix ppl to take care of all the wasted money, if you can have kids you can work and support your kids,


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

another thing is ppl that "cant work" or "cant find a job" and need the govt's money shouldnt have cell phones, or internet, or dish/direct/cable, or brand new clothes all the time........


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

OLYMPYC said:


> i am 20yrs old, i have a 2yr old son, do the math,



Do my math! 50 years old in Feb. '11, 3 girls ages 8, 9, and 16. Ouch!
Jeff


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## OLYMPYC (Dec 11, 2010)

haha you win for sure........


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 12, 2010)

got yall beat! 
Me 39,wife 35, sons 19,17,14! we started YOUNG! Oh well, we will still be young when they are outa the house!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 12, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Do my math! 50 years old in Feb. '11, 3 girls ages 8, 9, and 16. Ouch!
> Jeff



You start late in life Jeff  Not sure I could handle an 8 year old any longer.. I am 54 - but mine are 25, 23 and 18.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeaah, I never planned on settling down. 
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 12, 2010)

Yoopermike said:


> I had a buddy like that.. were not buddies anymore now he mooches from the govt and using the govts money to buy his drugs n beer! hes fully capable to work but is too lazy! now that pisses me off!!! not to mention that he has 2 kids already and 1 on the way.



Wife had a friend, 3 kids, 3 dads, full welfare, had college BS in Business, paid for by us, has new car, paid for by us, kids get 7 sets clothes before school each year at sears, dont matter the price, 7 sets, whatever brand,food paid, rent paid, childcare paid (she dont work) gets a TAX return? like 5g's, how in hell does a welfare queen get a tax return when she dont pay in? Sits at home wit her gangsta BF and complains about how she has it bad
Told my wife she needed to be more independent like her!
Wife went ballistic! Friends no more!


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