# Which and how many carabiners to set ? Newbie to Arboriculture



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 5, 2014)

Hey guys,

First of all, I want to introduce myself.
My name is Marcelo, I'm 29 years old and I'm from Brazil.

Recently I decided to became a professional arborist.
I've been studying a lot techniques, equipments and all matters to tree care.

I am up to order my first climbing equipment and I am a lit bit confused on which kind/material
to set up my carabiners. I learned that I should go to steel carabiners for rigging issues and aluminum carabiners
for climbing issues.

I'm going to work with pulleys, slings, hitch climber.

So my question is:

1 - Consider to rigging issues, wich model of steel carabiners should I go for? 
Oval type, D type, HMS type?
Auto locking or normal locking or non-locking?
I want to use speed line techniques also.
How many should I go for?
Which brand do you think are better?

2 - Considering to climbing issues, which aluminum carabiners should I go for?
Oval type, D type, HMS type?
Auto locking or normal locking or non-locking?
I want to use speed line techniques also.
How many should I go for?
Which brand do you think are better?


I was wondering to start buying:
2 big oval to hitch climber set
6 steel carabiners ore more for rigging and speedline

I am a little bit confused and I would be so greatful if someone could help me up!

All the best,


Marcelo


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 6, 2014)

Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> steel carabiners for rigging issues and aluminum carabiners for climbing issues.



Alloy for climbing and steel for rigging. Yes, that is ok. I do the same. Some good alloy biners are around 70-80 grams and 27-30 kN. While some steel ones are anywhere from 240-275 grams yet not a lot stronger than a quality alloy one, starting at around 35 kN. It is a lot more weight to carry around for a small gain in strength.

Once you use something for rigging it should always be used only for rigging!! This is very important. Rigging exposes the biners and ropes and pulleys and slings used for rigging to much more force than your weight when climbing. The forces of rigging will greatly shorten the working life of the gear. Any rope or sling or pulley or biner that is used for rigging must never be used for PPE. Just so that you know!



Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> Auto locking or normal locking or non-locking?



As a rule all connectors for PPE, anything stopping you from falling. (climb line connection, lanyard/flipline connection, hitch climber pulley etc etc...) should be an autolock biner.
Rigging can be screwlocks, but especially if you are new to this it would be better anyway to have autolocks for rigging also. Yes they are more expensive but you cannot forget to screw the gate closed. 
Non-locking ones should only be used as accessory biners. Such as on your harness to hold gear. (slings, figure-8 descender, chainsaw lanyard attachment etc etc)
Seeing as you are starting out and buying gear i would recommend going for auto locks. However for rigging tree sap and bark and dirt can cause these to not operate smoothly if you do not keep them clean. Just to warn you.



Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> 2 big oval to hitch climber set



The hitch climber and other slack tending pullies need an oval biner to make sure the load is spread correctly on the biner. Quite often this will be spelled out in the instructions for the pulley
The hitch climber has recommended biners for it. You can use any oval you want but it does work very well with the DMM Ultra O that it was designed for. The Climbing Technology oval also works well with the hitch climber and is high quality also. Once again they should be an autolock for connectiing to the hitch climber as this is PPE.



Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> 6 steel carabiners ore more for rigging and speedline



It depends on what kind of rigging and the types of trees you will be working on. Sometimes you won't need all of them, but other times you wish you had more! However 4 is a good number to start with. You can always get more later if you find you really need them. Especially if you are going to use a speedline it is nice to have extras to speed up production and not need to wait for them to be sent back up. Just go for the strongest steel autolock biner that suits you!



Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> Which brand do you think are better?



Many good quality brands out there. Many experienced climbers have a favorite brand for certain items of gear. As you get more experience and use more gear you too will learn what you like and what you do not.
DMM, Climbing Technology, ISC, Rock exotica and Omega Pacific. Just to name some!

I will make some recommendations but these are just my opinion based on gear i have used.

Hitch climber and also slack tending pulley alloy ovals:
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=130&item=1218
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=130&item=1977

Rigging steel:
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=234&item=474
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=30&item=420
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=30&item=1493

General purpose alloy:
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=130&item=1778
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=130&item=1656
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=130&item=1606

Double and triple action snap for lanyard connection:
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=15&item=850
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=15&item=19

I will post some photos tomorrow of some of my gear to give you an idea of some uses of biners and gear in practice. It has been raining here heavy and i have the day off tomorrow!


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 6, 2014)

Hi Matt,

Thank you for your reply.
It was everything I need to hear about it!

The only crap is that I live in Brazil and modern arboriculture is something new here.
This is means that we don't have a bunch of equipment to try unless we import them from USA,
Canada, Europe or anywhere outside the country.

But fortunately nowadays we have Visa and this little plastic card help me a lot importing gear and stuffs.

What dou you mean with the abreviation PPE? I got your message, but I want to understand these technical
terms.

Can you give some another advice?

At this moment I have 3 chainsaw wich I work with:

Stihl MS 192T
Stihl MS 361
Stihl HT 131 

I watched all Dan Holliday movies from climbingarborist.com and other ones on you tube and I realize
that tree workers change the chainsaw bars. My doubt is about the bar to use with the MS 192.

I would like to put a 40 cm (original comes with 30 cm).
Do you know if I should follow Stihl recomendation to use the same chain (olomatic) and rollomatic bar,
or should I go for a bigger chain?

The same goes to my MS 361.
She (i like to call them as females) comes 40 cm bar and I am wondering to put a 50 cm one.

Thanks for help me up bro!

All the best ever!

Att.


----------



## jimrb (Mar 6, 2014)

PPE is Personal Protection Equipment.


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 6, 2014)

Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> It was everything I need to hear about it!
> ...






jimrb said:


> PPE is Personal Protection Equipment.



He got it in one.


The 192T just does not have the power to run a 40cm bar well. It will work but i am sure you would not be happy with how it cuts. It is a nice well built light saw, but i would recommend keeping the bar size the same as you have now.
I have used a 192T and for me in the type of wood i cut i did not like it even with the 30cm. Anything over 30cm is really asking a lot of that saw. I got other more powerful saw for bigger cuts.

The 361 on the other hand will handle the bigger bar with no trouble. It will run fine with a 50cm.


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 6, 2014)

My hitch climber setup. DMM Ultra O's. Ocean polyester friction cord. General purpose D biner with the sling to move the climb rope knot away from the friction hitch so it does not interfere.
If i had spliced or sewn eyes i would not need the sling. Without the sling to move the rope termination away, the big knot on my rope stops the friction hitch from working all the time and is very dangerous.




My rope lanyard i made the same as the Teufelberger CE lanyard. DMM Pinto micro pulley adjuster. Kong oval auto lock biner. Climbing technology double action snap. 
Marlow viper eye to eye 8mm friction cord. I will probably take off the thimble prusik as i thought it was really cool, but i never use it.




Wire core flip line with oval biner, micro pulley and friction cord adjuster. I know it is not an auto lock! I know i said all PPE should be autolock. I just could not find a spare one when i took this photo.




Home made rigging pulley. Pelican rope 16mm x 3.6 m dead eye sling. 2 x 12mm 1250 Kg WLL Genuine French Maillons. 
Not as efficient as a proper pulley but works very well for lowering and is much cheaper than a quality impact block rated to over 1000 Kg WLL.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 7, 2014)

Hey Matt,

Your gear is so fine!
I got a little bit confused with the third photo.

Is that for the safe line?

Do you have any picture of those equipments in use?
It would be so helpful for me!

Thanks for the tip Jimrb.
Here in Brazil this is called EPI (Equipamento de Proteção Individual)!


Take care.


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 7, 2014)

The third photo is a wire core safety lanyard with a braided rope outer cover. Or flip line. I use it as a second lanyard when climbing and keeping 2 points of attachment. 

It's main use for me however is for topping and blocking down a trunk. When you have removed your rope out of the tree and are cutting blocks off the trunk with only spikes and a lanyard. 
It is better to use a wire core because your saw will be cutting so close to your lanyard. It is a little bit of extra safety. If you accidentally cut a rope lanyard you probably will fall. If you cut a wire core you will see the sparks instantly and there will still be plenty of strength to hold your weight even if the cable has been damaged. 

In the scenario in the photo a wire core lanyard would be advisable over a plain rope lanyard.




I don't have any photos of my gear in use but i will be doing some climb work this week and early next week so i will try to get someone to take some while i am up there.

Just so you know the members here often get a little carried away with giving advice to others regarding buying another saw. Is is very easy when it is someone elses money!
In your situation however i think it could be very good for you. You have a small light good quality climb saw with the MS192T. Like i said in reply to your question i would not put a larger bar on it.
You also have a good larger saw in the MS361. I would put a 20" on it with no hesitation. There is a large gap in weight and power between the 2 saws. I think a saw like a MS250 would really be a worthwhile investment. That way you will only be climbing with what you need and not the heavier MS361 every time the wood is too big for the MS192T. The MS250 is light and powerful and would fill in the gap between your 2 saws well. 

This is only a suggestion, but if you are planning on doing this kind of work for many years it would be a good investment in my mind. However if you are comfortable with the saws you have now you could always find out what you want and get another saw at a later time if you feel the need.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 7, 2014)

Matt,

I will think about your advices as for the chainsaws.
I didn't by these chainsaw thinking to work as a professional arboriculture.

I'm starting a landscape / gardening business as I'm finishing my college.
So I saved some money and bought the MS 192 to work with bamboo maintenance.

I bought the 361 2 weeks ago. And I did it after studding a lot STIHL catalog and talking
with experienced people.

As I said before, being a pro arboriculture came in my life 2 months ago.

I never thought I would work with that in my life, until I saw a video for August Hunickle doing speed line
and rappelling from a huge tree. I became so excited since than.


So now I am, studding a lot, meeting good people like you in the internet and sharing knowledge.

Talking about the MS 250, should I go for it or go for the MS 200T?

Here in Brazil Stihl does not produces the 200T... but I could try my way to get it from outside.


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 7, 2014)

Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> Talking about the MS 250, should I go for it or go for the MS 200T?



That is another option. It all depends on if you think you will be climbing more or working on the ground more.
Maybe it would be better to wait and see what you really need in the future, instead of buying something now and you are not happy and it is a waste of money.

The 200T is basically the best top handle climb saw ever made. Good power and built strong. They are not produced anymore though.
The current model is the MS201T. The 201T is not liked so much by people i know who have one. You need to modify it from new to get it to cut as well as the 200T.
If you want a 200T it would need to be a good used one as new is getting hard to find and very expensive.
For example here in Australia an average looking 6 year old used 200T can sell for over $800! 

There is nothing wrong with your 192T but honestly after using a 200T you would think that the 192T feels and cuts like a toy.

A MS250 in almost brand new condition would be around $300-350 US from eBay US.
I have used them a lot before and are a very light but good power saw for the size. Like i said it all depends on if you will be climbing more or working on the ground more.

I would recommend waiting on a saw purchase. You need to buy climbing equipment now, so buy that first and become comfortable and safe at using it and then see what you need in the future.


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 8, 2014)

I have been following this thread from the beginning. I haven't jumped in till now because Matt has been doing a good job, and I don't want to add any confusion by making slightly different suggestions about biners and hardware.
I think Matt is right about waiting on the third saw. See how often you are in the tree needing a bigger saw, verses being on the ground wishing you had a lighter one.
Good job Matt.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 8, 2014)

I understand Matt!

If there is something that I usually do is to wait and research a lot before buying new equipments.
I like to buy the best equipments available in the market no matter if I have to save money for months...

My opinion is that good gear make our job easier, safer and with better quality.
This is the way I usually go for (or I try to go!) being a pro.

Considering the friction saver to make false crotch, how many it is good to have?
I was going to buy one with 120 cm length but now realize that I should review my needs!

VA-Sawyer,

Thanks for coming bro.
Feel free to let your suggestions and advices on this thread. 
This is why I created.
Spread knowledge and experiences as also love and friendship is what we need for a better living on this planet!

All the best guys,

Have a nice weekend!


----------



## Matt81 (Mar 8, 2014)

Marcelo Chaluppe said:


> If there is something that I usually do is to wait and research a lot before buying new equipments.
> I like to buy the best equipments available in the market no matter if I have to save money for months...
> My opinion is that good gear make our job easier, safer and with better quality.
> This is the way I usually go for (or I try to go!) being a pro.
> ...



That is a very good attitude to have. Find out the most you can about the equipment. Find what you need for what you will use it for and get the best quality gear you can. Yes it will cost more but you will have gear that will last longer and be safer and easier to use.

I have 2 friction savers. I have a 120cm with steel rings and a 150cm with aluminum rings. Both are made by Buckingham. Good reputable company that makes good hard wearing gear.
I have climbed with natural crotch for many years when i worked for a local company. They never used a friction saver anytime i climbed. Now that i am starting to work for myself i wanted to get one because now i have to pay for a new rope when it wears out myself! I thought it would be very hard to install in the tree, but after watching a few climbing arborist videos Dan made it look easy! Now i am used to doing it and would never go back to natural crotch. My ropes look like new after many climbs instead of being all sappy and dirty.

The aluminium is much lighter and easier to pull up over the crotch or branch. The downside is that the aluminium alloy rings do wear faster than the steel rings. I prefer to buy gear that is stronger and more reliable than gear that is just the lightest available. I have had no problems with the aluminium one at all but guys who have climbed for years on both say that you will definately be still using the steel one while the alloy one would have been replaced already.

As far as length goes, have a think about the types of trees you would commonly work with and what size branches and crotches are typically found where a good TIP would be. Then get the next size up and you should not go wrong.
For me i use the 120cm a lot, but there are many trees where the 150cm allows me to get a better TIP setup than if i only had the 120cm. Having 2 is nice as in a very large tree you can have 2 smooth friction free lines setup at once for better positioning. In reality, as you are just starting out, you will get by fine on the one friction saver, and like a saw and other gear you can buy another one later if you find that you really need it.

Here are the links to the ones i use.
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=448
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=831

I know i can be a bit overwhelming when choosing new gear, and especially new gear that is stopping you from falling out of a tree! It can be easy to buy too much or buy things you find later you did not need!
The best advice i can give is try to buy the best quality gear you can. Don't buy too much. Get the basic gear covered first and then later buy what you find you need based on your experiences working in the trees.
I myself would be very annoyed if i had spent a lot of money on expensive gear i had to save hard for and then don't use it because i did not do my research well or I find that I don't use that gear when in the tree.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 9, 2014)

Matt,

My trouble to deal at this moment, is that I won a public job which is a big job
and I have to start it in 2 weeks. 

Of course I'm not going to be crazy and do it by my own.
I hired the best tree worker with 25 years experience.
He is so expensive, but I believe it worths. This is the "gold opotunity" for my company wich is
starting to act with tree care.

So I was wondering to buy some stuff from a Brazillian company with good reputation on
rescue and climbing equipments, which is called Ultra Safe.

Ultra Safe has an Arboriculture Kit, which is the first step to be able to climb a tree.
These equipments are not best quality as Ptzel, DMM , ISC but is ok for who is starting.

Here is the link to see their arboriculture kit. If you could check it out and give me your opinion,
I would be thankful.

I was going to buy this hole kit in the beginning, but after going deeply on my research I realize
that I don't need all those equipments and that I could have better and cheaper gear if for example,
I do not buy the lanyard and build my own like you did.

If I had more time to spend I would defintelly buy the best equipments I found like Ptzel Sequoia,
Ptzel Helmets and stuff. But if I do this, the equipments would be in my hands after 30-40 days
and I don't have this time.

So what I am going to buy from Ultra Safe on monday (I hope!)
obs: the words in ( ) are their name in portuguese.

1 ARBOR saddles (cinto albero)
1 Corazza Helmet (capacete)
1 ARBOR friction savier (corda de ancoragem) - they have the 120 cm and the 170 cm. So I'm going for the 120 cm.
1 Figure 8 descender (freio 8)
1 throw ball (peso de lançamento) - 345 g
3 mini pulleys (polia)
1 lift steel pulley
1 throw line bag (saco para cordim)
1 chainsaw sling (cinta para motoserra)
1 lanyard (talabarte)
6 safe slings 60 cm
4 safe slings 80 cm

As for the lanyard, this is a crap copy model from Ptzel.
After talking with you I realize that it is better if I make my own lanyard as you did, cause this crap one cost U$ 170,00
I I could bild own my on cheaper and more useful than this for U$ 100,00

So what I has going to buy to make my lanyard? I found here in Brazil USClimbing biners that is cheap and good to start.
I was going to buy

2 oval alloy biners 
1 mini pulley
1 conect binner

https://www.omontanhista.com.br/pro...tica-24KN-CE-UIAA-Keylock-%252d--USClimb.html
https://www.omontanhista.com.br/pro...-30KN-Twistlock-keylock-CE-%252d-USClimb.html

About the biners, which was the beggining of this thread,

I'm going to buy

1 or 2 D alloy auto lock binner
4 D steel auto lock binner

https://www.omontanhista.com.br/pro...E1tica-28KN-polido-CE-UIAA-%252d-USClimb.html
https://www.omontanhista.com.br/pro...N-Trava-Autom%E1tica-CE-EN-%252d-USClimb.html

Considering to auto lock there are two models : Normal autolock and the key lock type. Which one is better?



And then I'm going for the the ropes:

Throw line:
100 meters polipropylen 2 or 3 mm rope

Climbing line:
200 meters 12 mm polyester with nylon core (semi-estatic)

Rigging line:
200 meters 12 mm 100% polyester 

Friction cords:
100 meters 8 mm polyester with nylon core for make prussik and hitch climber knots.


The lenghts are not decided yet.
That was what I going to ask for.

How lenght is your ropes and how many you use to have?

to make the lanyard , how long should be my rope and size (10,11 or 12 mm).
Is there a problema if I make the eye end with knots or tieying?

The wire core, I'm going to buy soon, the same as yours!


How long is this text! hehehe

Thanks again for saving me Matt!


All the best.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 9, 2014)

And Matt,

Considering the harness,

I was in doubt.
The Albero one from USafe has the chest slings cause it is determination in Brazil to have when working in rescue.
In tree care they don't have this chest slings.

I was in doubt to chose the Torino one:

http://ultrasafe.com.br/torino-abdminal.html

Checking both of them I realize that the albero has addtional slings on it.
What is your opinion?

Albero is U$ 150 expensive than Torino

Torino video:


Albero video:


----------



## VA-Sawyer (Mar 10, 2014)

Neither saddle has a rope bridge. I would suggest that you save your money and buy the Torino. Later on, order a better saddle. 
I have never heard of USClimber brand.


----------



## Marcelo Chaluppe (Mar 10, 2014)

VA-sawyer,
That's what I thought also.


US Climb website:
http://usclimb.com/

I know these are not the best equipments, but for today is what I need (I hope!)

Maybe I could adapt the rope bridge into the Torino with maillons and ropes.
What do you think?

The rope bridge into the Albero is not the red sling?


----------

