# Shaver Improvement Forum.... one year later



## ngzcaz (Sep 8, 2009)

So what have we learned ??

1. The contraption for the change of the water coil sucks. I just took mine off to see what was in and it was a nightmare.. dust, insulation sticking to the slide, nothing to keep that junk from falling in your water supply and gumming up the works when you remove the slide. And don't forget to take a look at your chimney from the inside when you have the slide off.. Rusty for sure which will fall in the water eventually. I had my water treated from Water Solutions that was recommended by the manufacturer. Good thing the chimney's thick.
Bottom line..if you can seal the slide, do it and forget it. Add chemicals from the overflow pipe.

2. Insulation rules................. anywhere you can. Don't forget to go all the way up the chimney to the roof to help prevent the chimney from clogging up from creosote as well as keeping the heat in the firebox. Some have been adamant about insulating the bottom of the boiler as well. Makes sense.. 

3. Change the thermostat to anything else. Which I regret to say haven't done to date. 

4. My door loosened up to the point where I added a shim to close it tightly. There doesn't seem to be a factory adjustment. I also had to redo the silicone door gasket. If you have to redo the gasket, cut some wax paper a little bigger than the width of the silicone and apply it after you put the silicone in the crevice on the door. Then shut the door to get a perfect seal. The wax paper allows you to open the door after the silicone solidifies. 

5. At least for me, the ashes kind of piled up on the sides of the unit. This actually insulated the unit and only allowed heat to go to the very top of the OWB instead of heat transference to the sides where it might help a bit more. Seems this should be rounded more so the ashes slide toward the grates. If I wanted to shovel ashes I would have bought a CB ( no offense )

It did work all winter.. no oil, just a little more electric for the pump. Seems like Big Oil wants us to shut them down and burn oil again. At a little over $ 2.00 a gallon its tempting.. but I have a sizable investment to get back. A test burn or two in the near future and hopefully an uneventful heating season for 2010. 

How about sharing your thoughts on last season ??


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 8, 2009)

Been thinking of putting some fire brick in the fire box. Haven't done it and was wondering what effect it would have. Thought I read somewherer it would trap moisture and cause rust. Not sure if this is true.

Also thinking of putting some insulation on the door like others have done. 

Haven't done either, just thinking about it.


My door is also a little loose. I wish there were some type of adjustment for it.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 8, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> Been thinking of putting some fire brick in the fire box. Haven't done it and was wondering what effect it would have. Thought I read somewherer it would trap moisture and cause rust. Not sure if this is true.
> 
> Also thinking of putting some insulation on the door like others have done.
> 
> ...




1. Firebrick would seem to insulate the bottom instead of allowing the heat to transfer to the water, just the opposite of what we want.

2. Door shim is the only thing I came up with. A shim put on the inside of the handle that secures the door was 1/2 hr job if you have the materials. I secured mine with two countersunk screws in case I have to redo it in the future. No one can see the shim from the front. Nice and tight.

3. Door insulation is just cutting some 3 1/2 inch fiberglass to approx size then tear the paperback off. Then tear that to about 2 inches thick so you can ease it in the door w/o compressing it too much. Probably find enough upstairs or in the garage for a no cost addition.

I can see the underside of the OWB in the back as I'm sure others can as well. I'd like to shoot some foam or blow some insulation all the way to the front. Shouldn't even have to remove the sides unless you want to do the sides also. I need to check around for some ideas on the net.

Re : thermostat.. the hack factory job is almost too hard to believe. No wonder its off by 25 or 30 degrees. Mine was touching on one side and not touching on the other. Shoved a wood shim so both sides contacted somewhat evenly for the season. Time for a better fix. You could have pulled a car with the bolt they have to secure the thermostat. 

:greenchainsaw:


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## ngzcaz (Sep 8, 2009)

*** BTW, I just got off the phone from Tennessee w/the stock thermostat company. They stated their units wont pass inspection unless they are within 8 degrees. I truly think its the bad job of making the unit contact the OWB thats causing the wild fluctuations in temperature. I'm going to give it another shot and make it contact the back evenly and see what happens. After a couple of test burns I should know. Last year I just shoved some wood shims, this year I'll give it a bit more thought. There just cant be that much deviation from the true temperature.

:monkey:


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 9, 2009)

I installed a Ranco last year. 

Drilled a dry well in the top for the probe. (basically did what others did on here and followed their instructions) Made the dry well out of a 14" piece of 1/4"copper tubing capped on one end.

Set the differential at 5 degrees. I like that it kicks the fan on after dropping 5* instead of after about 20* like the stock set up. Takes too long for the water temp to recover in my opinion.

I'd strongly advise installing the Ranco thermostat.

I didn't do the blower mod. Just kept blower in stock form.

I also thought of sliding some foam board under the water jacket from the back. Even thought about gluing some aluminum foil (shiny side up) to the top of it to reflect back the heat.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 10, 2009)

This is the last try for the thermostat. This time I moved the thermostat up a few inches, forgot about the monster bolt and made my own setup and now have a nice tight fit to the back of the stove. The combination of the thermostat being a bit low ( hotter water will be at the top ) and not making full contact may ( I hope ) have screwed up the readings. At least this time if it still has wild fluctuations I'll know I need to change it. There's no question that an inside well will monitor the water much better than the present set up. Heat transference from the steel will last longer than the actual water temp so the water will be a different temp than the steel for an undetermined length of time. That may account for part of the problem.
I had no problem heating my small home last year even in the coldest temps even with taking HOT baths ( think wife/red behind ) and running the dishwasher and the same time. It would have been interesting if I ran the lines out to the garage ( 100 ft one way ) No question my wood consumption would have been way up. 
I have to blow/put insulation under the stove as mentioned earlier but then I'm done for the season. Make a couple of test burns and wait for the season to start. I had thought of adding to the sides but the sides weren't warm to the touch last year. I did add a few wraps to the chimney with some left over solarguard from the inside. It probably would pay to remove the stock insulation from the top and then add a couple of layers of solarguard to reflect the heat back in the stove. I hate the fiberglass itch so..............

:greenchainsaw:


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 10, 2009)

I didn't install the Ranco until very late in the heating season. Before the Ranco, the blower ran constantly trying to get the water back up to temp.

What you said about the steel retaining the temperature longer than the water is true. That, along with the stock thermostat's 8* differential is why the water temp drops so much before the blower kicks on. By then the water temp is so low, it takes forever to catch back up.

With the Ranco, the blower only runs about half as much. It is much easier to recover 5* than it is to recover 20*.


Over all, I am satisfied with the Shaver. I actually like tinkering with it and making some of the improvements. My problem is with their customer relations and out right lying to customers about the delivery dates last year.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 10, 2009)

[Quote
What you said about the steel retaining the temperature longer than the water is true. That, along with the stock thermostat's 8* differential is why the water temp drops so much before the blower kicks on. By then the water temp is so low, it takes forever to catch back up.
With the Ranco, the blower only runs about half as much. It is much easier to recover 5* than it is to recover 20*.



Not only does it retain the heat but it also takes longer to register the temperature to shut off the stat. I noticed mine was getting hotter than 180 before it shut off. It will be interesting if the couple of inches I moved the stat will make a difference. It certainly cant be worse... The stat was set at 140 and inside my home it was reading 180 on the oil burners temp gauge. I dont have a heat exchanger so I trust the oil burners temp gauge a lot more than I do the one on the back of the stove.
Like you, I think overall its a decent stove. As we said in the first forum, a couple of very minor changes would make this a " best buy " for the money. That and a little more pride in their craftsmanship would help the " Buy American " really mean something. I haven't welded in 20 years but when I was I would have been ashamed to admit that some of that was my handiwork. But it doesnt leak, it does work, and offered the quickest payback of any stove I looked at.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 12, 2009)

Hey Windwalker, what part of Pa. do you hail from ? I'm in NE Pa at the foot of the Poconos. Gets cold as heck w/ normally a lot of snow possible at any given time. Its getting time when I either light a fire or turn on the oil heat.

Re : loose door.. I got away with wood shims ( aka broken off branch ) last winter but not this year. Unfortunately your door wont tighten up as the winter progresses. The steel shim I put on in is the stationary handle on the stove itself that doesn't move, not the movable handle of the door. I wasn't very clear on that. 

*** while we are on the door, did you make or change the end of the handle where you pull the door open and close it. That piece of steel should have some thing covering the last 6 or 8 inches. If I had an old coal type shovel that wasn't being used, I'd cut the handle off and rig it to fit. That way you could fit your whole hand inside the handle to pull it.

:biggrinbounce2:


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm from the SW part of the state(Westmoreland Co)

I resealed my door with high temp silicone I filled the crease and covered with Parchment paper(sorta like wax paper used for baking stuff) and closed the door. Seems to be a little tighter.

I'll eventually probably have to shim it anyway.

Haven't done anything with the handle.

I slid some reflective foam board under it yesterday to maybe help insulte the bottom, also stuffed some fiberglass insulation in the door itself.

It's been pretty cool here the last couple days, actually even thinking about starting her up. I'll probably hold off a few more weeks though.

Had a triaxle load of logs delivered about a week ago (next year's wood) and have been working on getting it cut and stacked.

This will be my second year with the Shaver. I'm actually a little anxious to get it fired up. I have forced air heat in most of the house and some self installed radiant floor heat in the great room.

Last year the house was the warmest its been in many years thanks to the Shaver. No more turning the thermostat down to save on heating oil. We usually have it about 73*, although I've come home to it about 78*-79* when the daughter is home by herself. She'll even go out and throw some logs in it herself.


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## John D (Sep 13, 2009)

Just took off the siding from the front and one side of my shaver to add some insulation. The factory job isnt horrible over the flats on the sides,but the corners,and crevices are nt insulated at all.Its very clear these boilers were assembled with one thing in mind,get it done fast,dont worry if its done right. Now that the sidings off,Im disturbed at how wet the insulation is behind and above the front door opening.This thing isnt a yr old,and all the framework is rusted up realy good,because Shaver doesnt paint anything,and its always wet between the poor fit,and sweating from lack of insulation.Im not sure what to do behind the door,not sure if its a water leak from the boiler,or its getting in the roof or siding somewhere.The scarey part is we ordered 7 of these things,and mine was one of the best as far as fit and finish went!My door shuts perfectly,my sidings attached.and my back door shuts perfect.5 of our units had major issues,the doors wouldnt even shut right front or back.Ill post pictures later.....


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 13, 2009)

John D said:


> Just took off the siding from the front and one side of my shaver to add some insulation. The factory job isnt horrible over the flats on the sides,but the corners,and crevices are nt insulated at all.Its very clear these boilers were assembled with one thing in mind,get it done fast,dont worry if its done right. Now that the sidings off,Im disturbed at how wet the insulation is behind and above the front door opening.This thing isnt a yr old,and all the framework is rusted up realy good,because Shaver doesnt paint anything,and its always wet between the poor fit,and sweating from lack of insulation.Im not sure what to do behind the door,not sure if its a water leak from the boiler,or its getting in the roof or siding somewhere.The scarey part is we ordered 7 of these things,and mine was one of the best as far as fit and finish went!My door shuts perfectly,my sidings attached.and my back door shuts perfect.5 of our units had major issues,the doors wouldnt even shut right front or back.Ill post pictures later.....



pictures?


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## John D (Sep 13, 2009)

Ok I didnt strip it down yet,as im still undecided as to what method im going to take with it.So just the siding is off,and my battery died,so i only have a few pics for now. Ill say im very disgusted at what the frame looks like.The sweating inside the roof all winter clearly took its toll in the framework,so im going to be prepping and rustoleum painting it at some time in the near future.Overall the insulation isnt great,but its better than i thought it was going to be after looking at everything else.Like the rest of the boiler the details were skipped.The solarguard wrapped around the unit is not too bad,but at ever corner,and crevice,there is no insulation,just bare exposed metal.Especially in the front of the unit,where the top insulation lays,and meets the front insulation,there is a sizable gap of over a few inches where there is zero insualtion.ill get more pics as the week goes on.Me and a cousin are trying to get the icynene guy to give us a decent price to spray them.Right now they want 750 each to spray foam the 340,dont know how much cheaper my smaller 250 would be.I dont want to spend 750 on it thats for sure.Im almost thinking a roll of r19 unfaced,stuff it in all the missed spot and corners,and call it good,just the bottom corners there was still a lot exposed when i insulated the bottom,I still missed quite a bit you couldnt see it until the siding was off.So either way ill get a decent improvement.
Id also like to move the ranco to the front as well for easy viewing and temp changes without having to go out back.

When you look at these pictures remember this unit isnt even a yr old yet!And the metal is inside where its supposed to be protected from the weather.Sweating from the hot chimney and poor insulation caused water to form inside the roof,and it would even run down and form icicles on cold nights...


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## John D (Sep 13, 2009)

First pic is right behind front panel at top where front meets top,you can clearly see the exposed tank there where there was zero isulation.No wonder it was so hot inside the roof.
Sec pic is right above the door,this insulation is all wet,as is all of ot around the door.Clearly the sealer Shaver uses on the door is inadequete for the heat and elements.Again it didnt even last a year.You could see where rain was leaking past the sealer,and running behind the siding,and being wicked up by the fiberglass insulation.
Third pic is behind the fill valve,no water in that area,no wet insulation.

Overall im dissappointed,but not at all suprised by what i see.If i get time ill get more pics.


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## John D (Sep 13, 2009)

Difficult to see from this pic,but this shot is the left rear upper corner.The white is the backside of the siding that is in the rear compartment.The entire corner is exposed metal,with the uninsulated area extending to the front about 2 ft,just below the top corner.The pink insulation on the upper right is what i added over the top and inside the entire rear compartment,it clearly helped some,as the entire rear ares was light on insulation.


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## Fishhead (Sep 14, 2009)

My 250's top plate was barley even welded on and it steamed like a locomotive. Said it was the roof seal "yeah right". Look at the welds on the top plate to make sure they look good and if you think there questionable wire brush it and use "some more" of the famous high temp silicone to ensure its not pissing steam out. My frame looked the same way and my insulation was soaked.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 14, 2009)

Well.. I didn't look at the front of the stove by removing the panels, but the rear of the stove is Ok. I elevated mine a bit with the concrete pad so water would flow away from the unit. Clearly in your situation water is either getting in from the outside, something is leaking or the insulation is too tight making everything condense in those areas. Just as an attic has to be ventilated so do these stoves. Maybe in our effort to insulate these things we aren't following some of the edicts regarding ventilation. As I said in an earlier post perhaps removing the top insulation and putting a couple layers of solarguard with its reflective qualities first before adding the rest of the insulation would help in all areas. If it persists maybe a small fore and aft vent at the two eves would do the trick. There's no question with an R-50 rating ( or higher ) snow should remain on these roofs.
John , in your case I think I remember yours being fired quite steadily in order to keep up to heat demands. Is it possible that the top was too tight causing condensation? This is for everyone with any stove.. don't plug up openings where you see them if they are above the insulation. I obviously don't mean holes in the roof or where water can enter. They serve to keep condensation from occurring. Another thought might be that the insulation wasn't spread evenly on the top causing an area that allowed heat to escape. Maybe an area that cant be seen for example from the back. I for example can't see what the front of my stove at the top looks like. Now that heat would mix with the colder air and consequently cause condensation. One area that foam has it all over fiberglass is when it gets wet. Fiberglass becomes almost useless. And.... 750 to insulate the stove sounds like a lot. That would buy an awful lot of cans of Great stuff.. 

:greenchainsaw:


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## Stihl310 (Sep 14, 2009)

I guess I'm a little confused... did you guys realize all these problems after you bought it, or did you think they were good units from the get go?? Just curious... seems like a lot of hassle, my homemade unit seems like it would be a better unit just from reading all these posts...


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## pipe76 (Sep 14, 2009)

*Shaver*

I'm a research a product to death before I buy type of guy, and after reading everything about shaver, and seeing first hand the lie's they claim on the website, I'm not sure why anyone would trust these guys, It's cheaper yes, but all the problems surely aren't worth it.


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 14, 2009)

There was a bit of deception (either intentional or unintentional). For one, they had an image on their website that ilustrated how well insulated the unit was (showed very thick insulation all around the water jacket including on the bottom) I saved the original image they used, look on their site now, it has changed:







I'm not one of the guys who got screwed over by waiting so long, and I think my boiler is fairly solid (welds and all) because they weren't super busy when I ordered it. I like to overall style of the boiler and I opted for a much larger door than the norm (mine is 24x24 instead of 18x18). I've also made several changes to my boiler inluding a better aquastat, and an electric damper on the blower. I'm in the middle of building a shed over my boiler and wood storage, so I don't care how water tight the seams are, but I do wish I had more and better insulation (I'll remedy this after the shed is built) I also wish the boiler sat higher, which I've taken care of by excavating down about 6" infront of the boiler). We'll see what happens this year, but if I had it to do all over again, I wood have bought another brand that had an ashpan, blower, larger door, better insulation, and a thick mild steal firebox.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 14, 2009)

Anyone who follows these threads knows I was one of the first to express my opinions of these stoves. However, have you read about the CB's rusting and leaking ?.. they are in some instances as well as other OWB's. Lets face it, the oil companies/speculators cut their own throat ( amazing why we don't hear hear the real reason wer'e in a recession, read that big oil ) and a lot of companies like Shaver were trying to fill a demand. As a result quality suffered. Out of the box a Shaver is a Ford or Chevy. We are trying to make Cadillacs out of them and in some instances making problems where they may not exist otherwise. Trial and error is being rewarded by many who followed the first thread. There are those who may feel they indeed now have a Cadillac for far less money. In fact some ideas were for the benefit of most all OWB owners.. 

Now.. Delivery dates were the biggest problem last year. We all know what areas need improvement, however if there are true lies on the website, kindly explain what they are. As an owner of a Shaver I'd like to know what they are. Other than an illustration of insulation under the firebox, I can't see any. And that may have been unintentional since it wouldnt have changed my mind any, I just would have insulated it myself had I known it before it was lowered.

I think these group of owners aren't afraid to admit shortcomings w/ a purchase. How many expensive vehicles do you see on the side of the road with the hood up ? I see quite a few especially if you factor in the ratio of expensive vs inexpensive vehicles.

:monkey:


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## pipe76 (Sep 14, 2009)

*Shaver shortcomings*

Well, The reason they have a water fill on it is because it's unable to maintain a stable temp, so it's boils, all the time, Not on the website..... 

Also to fix that problem you have to alter the blower with your own thermostat, and blower modification, cause what they give you is junk...... Not on the website.....

The insulation gets wet from condensation, which renders it useless... again, do I have to say it..... Not on the website.


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## Dan-o (Sep 15, 2009)

*Almost ready for 2nd year*

I have done the steam fix, thermostat, insulation in the door and this year I'm going to do the blower mod and reinsulate above the firebox. Should be getting new windows this fall too, so we will see what surprises year number 2 brings.

Positives: I never had to turn on the propane last year, even in the negative 15-20 degree days we had last winter with a 100 year old poorly insulated farm house.

I did stock up ALOT more wood this off season compared to last season where I had to cut in January to stay ahead.


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## John D (Sep 16, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> Well..Maybe in our effort to insulate these things we aren't following some of the edicts regarding ventilation. As I said in an earlier post perhaps removing the top insulation and putting a couple layers of solarguard with its reflective qualities first before adding the rest of the insulation would help in all areas. If it persists maybe a small fore and aft vent at the two eves would do the trick. There's no question with an R-50 rating ( or higher ) snow should remain on these roofs.
> John , in your case I think I remember yours being fired quite steadily in order to keep up to heat demands. Is it possible that the top was too tight causing condensation? This is for everyone with any stove.. don't plug up openings where you see them if they are above the insulation. I obviously don't mean holes in the roof or where water can enter. They serve to keep condensation from occurring. Another thought might be that the insulation wasn't spread evenly on the top causing an area that allowed heat to escape. Maybe an area that cant be seen for example from the back. I for example can't see what the front of my stove at the top looks like. Now that heat would mix with the colder air and consequently cause condensation. One area that foam has it all over fiberglass is when it gets wet. Fiberglass becomes almost useless. And.... 750 to insulate the stove sounds like a lot. That would buy an awful lot of cans of Great stuff..
> :greenchainsaw:



I dont think snow will ever remain on there roofs as long as there is over a foot of single wall unisulated 5" chimney pipe running thru the "attic" thats running several hundred degrees. As for my boiler firing a lot,yes it was initially,once i laid under it,and put 3 batts of r19 under it,it held temps much better.
As for the moisture,I dont think this is a ventilation issue .In my case,after carefully inspecting everything,I am 99% sure the majority of the water was from the firebox door frame.Above it there was a thick bead of sealer,upon scraping and removing it to pull the front cover,it was apparent that there was a spot dead center in the front where it wasnt sealing.It has rained a lot here,and i think the moisture was absobed by the insulation as it leaked between the front wall and the top of firebox. I am afraid to spray foam insulate this boiler,it just isnt welded tight enough to trust sealing it with closed cell insulation,IMO.
Another beef of mine now that its apart its clear that no one at Shaver ever did any basic construction with the steel they built the OWB with.If they did they would understand the theory or logic behind the way the front of this owb is put together.The outer shell is basically sheet steel,but they do not follow thru and use traditional construction practices at points of opening to keep water out.The openings for the firebox door,and ash pan (Esp on top and sides)should be flashed or a lip welded behind the front panel,so water cannot back up and travel into the insulation.It would have no choice but to go back out or down.If a shed was built this way the OSB would be rotted in less that a yrs time.They expect a thick bead of "sealer" to provide a weatherproof seal when exposed to creosote,direct sunlightlight,and constant heat from the OWB and a constant pounding from water/snow.Of course its going to leak.
I think im going to fire mine up with the panels off,just throw the doors back on,and see what else is leaking...i got a feeling the top lip is leaking somewhere,the welds look horrible ,no wya they look good enough to provide a seal.Any moisture in there will soak the insulation as well.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 16, 2009)

pipe76 said:


> Well, The reason they have a water fill on it is because it's unable to maintain a stable temp, so it's boils, all the time, Not on the website.....
> 
> Also to fix that problem you have to alter the blower with your own thermostat, and blower modification, cause what they give you is junk...... Not on the website.....
> 
> The insulation gets wet from condensation, which renders it useless... again, do I have to say it..... Not on the website.




None of the things you mentioned are lies. They are distortions, half truths and your impression of these units. Do you even have one to be able to state with such certainty these conditions exist in every OWB ? Have you spoken to every single owner and verified these exist in every OWB ? Of course you haven't. I remember a fellow last year that had a financial bicker w/ Shaver. That was between him and Shaver. It almost seems you have the same bashing attitude. The reason I started these forums was to have an exchange of information, and of course in order to improve this things we have to find out what works and what can be improved. Bashing is ok, I've done my share, but I've also shared what worked and made an effort to make things better. Help us be part of the solution instead of part of the problem..... I REALLY can't believe I'm somewhat coming to Shavers defense.
If Ben is reading this, he must really be chuckling at my expense right now. 

:deadhorse:


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## ngzcaz (Sep 16, 2009)

John , you're absolutely right regarding the chimney. Insulating it is imperative to condensing the air around it which in all probability causing most if not all of the wetness if you have any in that particular area. When I got my stove last year I recaulked around the chimney area outside because I saw a bit of daylight. I also recaulked around the door and ashpan while I was at it. I haven't ripped mine off to see if there was a leak but I dont see anything that would indicate it. As I noted earlier, the welds are not good but so far aren't leaking. At least with mild steel its an easy fix. Stainless with its annealing problems is a whole different ball game as I read in a CB post last year.

At least I can say I haven't had wet insulation that I've detected anyway, the oil man is staying away and none of the mods I've done has cost me more than a few dollars. Since I have a smaller home I can get away with a lower setting on the stat eliminating so far the need to change stats. And I'm hoping for better this year with a simple change with mine. 

*** and there is snow on my roof in the winter as there should be if the chimney is insulated


:greenchainsaw:


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## John D (Sep 16, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> At least I can say I haven't had wet insulation that I've detected anyway, the oil man is staying away and none of the mods I've done has cost me more than a few dollars.
> 
> :greenchainsaw:



I couldnt detect any wet insulation until i removed the front panel.I had the sides off first,everything was dry.There is no way to know its wet without removing it and sticking your fingers there or look at the rust.Mine was wet in some spots to the point that pushing on the insulation was like wringing out a sponge,water poured out in spots.


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 17, 2009)

Let me get this right, you guys insulated the chimney pipe?

How did you secure the insulation around it?

I've nevr had any condensation build up in the "attic" of my 165.

I did have one problem thougfh. Last year right before I decided to shut my boiler down , I wanted to try to burn out some of the creosote.

I left the fire go out and left the water cool way down.

I filled the fire box with card board and news paper and lit it on fire. I opened the blower flap all the way open and let it blow full force.

I assumed that the fire would burn out quickly so I just walked away from it and went inside. I came out about a half hour later to see flames around my chimney pipe. (around it not coming out of it)

It seems that the hi-temp silicone and some insulation had caught fire from the chimney getting so hot.

Luckily I was watering some grass seed earlier and had the garden hose close enough to put out the fire.

I knew it would get hot but never thought that it would stay hot long enough to do all that.

I recaulked around the chimney a few days later. The hi temp silicone I resealed with was rated for 600* not sure if it is rated high enough or not.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 17, 2009)

I had a flame up or two but nothing that resulted in what you're describing. I had wrapped the solargard around the chimney a few times and then secured it with S.S. tape. I recently conducted my own blowtorch test with the solarguard and concluded I'm changing to unfaced batts instead. My silicone did not suffer any effects although thats a valid point with a very hot fire for a prolonged period of time. Thanks for sharing that..


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## 26LCS (Sep 17, 2009)

well, maybe I oughta knock on wood that our 165's been runnin for 18 months now with the original therm-o-disc thermostat in it,haven't replaced anything important yet..just the poorly placed motion detector light...we used it for DHW for 2 summers now...pump needed a whack last week to get it movin though...Did the vent fix to stop steamin and sealed that coil lid real good..also added 6 feet to the chimney...for when the wind's blowin the wrong way..Figure we saved $3300 so far on oil....I use a piece of all thread with a fender washer on the end and scrape the chimney every 2 weeks or so, and open the door and let it rip once in a while to burn it out.Bought 2 spare thermostats just in case,they're still on the shelf..I'm baffled by the negativity..and need for modifications...Maybe Shaver got sloppy but there must be other satisfied customers..


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## headleyj (Sep 18, 2009)

all,
I ran a 165 last year and was decently pleased with it. Yes condensation on the inside of the roof was a plenty. I thought about spray foaming as well, but worried about the welds too and then how fun it'd be to scrape that crap off 

So I read about all these mods - is there a lsit of them somewhere??? I take it ya'll had somethign similar to this last year too.

Vent pipe mod - the overflow you mean? yeah it steams there but if you seal it and seal the domestic water coil "lid" isn't it somewhat pressurized?

Stat - yeah that was a cheap-azz way to do it I agree. So what's the Rayco, why is it better and how does it install?

I too notived my chimney seal is showing daylight so I gotta reseal that here soon. I wanted to stuff more insualtion in the roof and below as well, but aren't ya jsut gonna have to replace it again next year if it condensates still?


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 18, 2009)

headleyj said:


> all,
> I ran a 165 last year and was decently pleased with it. Yes condensation on the inside of the roof was a plenty. I thought about spray foaming as well, but worried about the welds too and then how fun it'd be to scrape that crap off
> 
> So I read about all these mods - is there a lsit of them somewhere??? I take it ya'll had somethign similar to this last year too.
> ...



I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.


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## headleyj (Sep 18, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.



Fantastic, thank you!

I found this old thread too.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462

Man I almost did several of these a few weekends ago...wife talked me out of it. I'll be reinsulating the whole thing and modifyign the vent pipe for sure.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 19, 2009)

I did a test burn today with the relocated original stat and lo and behold its actually w/in the 8 degrees as stated by the company. Since its less than a day I'll have to see how it regulates itself as far as max/min temps are concerned. However, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. A major swing in the right direction and it may be as simple as moving it up a couple of inches and making sure the back is securely touching the steel. The door insulation is marginal at best it seems. The door still gets warmer than I'd like but....Blower door is still about a third open.


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 19, 2009)

I read somewhere that putting dielectric grease on the back of the thermostat will help it read the temperature better.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 21, 2009)

I've checked it several times yesterday and more recently this morning. Still 8 degrees or less variance. Still cautiously optimistic..

:greenchainsaw:


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## John D (Sep 21, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> I've checked it several times yesterday and more recently this morning. Still 8 degrees or less variance. Still cautiously optimistic..
> 
> :greenchainsaw:



thats great news. From experimenting with the ranco stat,ive learned that 5 degrees differential works best with my 250.....


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## headleyj (Sep 21, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> I did a test burn today with the relocated original stat and lo and behold its actually w/in the 8 degrees as stated by the company. Since its less than a day I'll have to see how it regulates itself as far as max/min temps are concerned. However, I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. A major swing in the right direction and it may be as simple as moving it up a couple of inches and making sure the back is securely touching the steel. The door insulation is marginal at best it seems. The door still gets warmer than I'd like but....Blower door is still about a third open.



can you detail for me how/ where you relocated the original thermostat to? Also are you somehow checking how much it overshoots? (ie: set to 150°F, fan kicks off at 165°F or ???)

Thanks,
Josh


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## headleyj (Sep 21, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> I've created a website and am keeping track of all the shortcomings and mods on my 290. you can view it here: http://shaverboiler.com/ I'll be updating it shorly with the remainder of the mods I've done, and some pictures also.



I saw your picture of your steam fix on post 26 here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462&page=2 

Does that not still steam a little bit sicne your water level isn't 100% closing the tube off?


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 21, 2009)

headleyj said:


> I saw your picture of your steam fix on post 26 here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80462&page=2
> 
> Does that not still steam a little bit sicne your water level isn't 100% closing the tube off?



Yeah, that was version 0.1  It is best to use a very short 90* and allow it to flow out the top effectifly limiting the water surface area exposed to atmoshphere (which is what creates steam). I had an issue when my 90* was a bit too tall and the boiler leaned to the rear slightly, this allowed water to leak from my DHW cover (stupid design). I think I might just thread the pipe and add a black iron 90* to neaten things up a bit. If your DHW cover isn't sealed, pull it off and keep an eye on your water level after you add the 90* and are filling it. 

Oh yeah, don't worry about the water in the 90* freezing, I had mine on in -15* weather with no freezing.

I also found a good pipe to use to extend the chimney without the 500lb single wall shaver adapter pipe. The inside (stainless pipe) of the Selkirk metalbestos 266036 double wall smoke pipe just fits over the factory chimney. Flaten out the crimps a bit, cut a small notch on the outer black pipe to allow for a large hose clamp, and slide it all the way down to your roof, or even the top of the water tank if you desire. You will now have a standard pipe size allowing for extension and cap options, it will be insulated (1/4 air gap rates for 6" to combustables). I used single wall pipe to extend my chimney last year and it worked for about two weeks until it clogged up because of not being insulated. I got my here: http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(alslozy1x5lpdx55wmktsxit)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=45065& 

I'm building a shed over my boiler and wood storage now, but I hope to have some time to add insulation before I fire up the boiler. Does anyone know if I can fit a piece of rigid foam below the water tank, but above the square tubing the bottom of the siding attaches to, or should I just shoot spray foam under the tank?


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## headleyj (Sep 21, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> Yeah, that was version 0.1  It is best to use a very short 90* and allow it to flow out the top effectifly limiting the water surface area exposed to atmoshphere (which is what creates steam). I had an issue when my 90* was a bit too tall and the boiler leaned to the rear slightly, this allowed water to leak from my DHW cover (stupid design). I think I might just thread the pipe and add a black iron 90* to neaten things up a bit. If your DHW cover isn't sealed, pull it off and keep an eye on your water level after you add the 90* and are filling it.
> 
> Oh yeah, don't worry about the water in the 90* freezing, I had mine on in -15* weather with no freezing.
> 
> ...




Good to know it won't freeze. Yes the DHW plate needs a redesign. Thanks for the advice. I ordered my Rayco controller today too.

Spray Foam - I wanted to spray foam the entire thing. Kits are $400. If I had confidence welds were not an issue, I wouldn't hesitate to spray foam it, but based on some things I've heard on this board, welds may be an issue. It's easier to pull batt/ board insulation out than scrape off foam IMO. I'll try batt/ foam board insulation this year and see how it goes. 

My BIL's Hardy has board lining the outer walls with a little bit of batt in there. Same size house as mine, he fills his 2x a day regardless of weather adn keeps his house stat at 78°. I'm at 73-74 and 2-3x/ day....hopefully these fixes will bring me down to 2x/day.

Keep us updated on what you decide.

Again, thanks for the advice.


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## headleyj (Sep 21, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> ....
> I also found a good pipe to use to extend the chimney without the 500lb single wall shaver adapter pipe. The inside (stainless pipe) of the Selkirk metalbestos 266036 double wall smoke pipe just fits over the factory chimney. Flaten out the crimps a bit, cut a small notch on the outer black pipe to allow for a large hose clamp, and slide it all the way down to your roof, or even the top of the water tank if you desire. You will now have a standard pipe size allowing for extension and cap options, it will be insulated (1/4 air gap rates for 6" to combustables). I used single wall pipe to extend my chimney last year and it worked for about two weeks until it clogged up because of not being insulated. I got my here: http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(alslozy1x5lpdx55wmktsxit)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=45065&
> ....
> 
> ...


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## hypothesis (Sep 22, 2009)

fletcher0780, 

I have my 290 raised 12" on blocks. I was able to fit the first of two layers of 2" foam board between the water jacket and square tubing. I cut out an oval notch in the foam board to accommodate the six legs. In order to do this though, I had to install each layer in two pieces, cut down the middle. Otherwise your foam board would run in between the legs and leave the outer edges of the water jacket exposed. I did two layers of foam board and staggered the seams. The second layer came pretty close to fitting flush with the square tubing.


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## urhstry (Sep 22, 2009)

Can we get some pictures of the insulated exhaust pipe and the insulated bottoms? I've been reading so much as to how to do it and everyone's got a different way. It seems spray foam is not the way to go.


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 22, 2009)

headleyj said:


> so does this pipe allow you to fore-go the silicone b/t the chimney and the roof metal?



You'd still need the seal between the chimney and roof, but depending on how you install it (i.e. cutting the hole bigger and allow the new pipe to rest on the tank) you will be caulking against a much cooler surface. I have a shed over my boiler now, so I'm not concerned about how water tight it is, and now I don't have to look at the ugly thing.


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 22, 2009)

won't you get that creosote oozing down between the original pipe and the extension pipe?


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## headleyj (Sep 22, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> You'd still need the seal between the chimney and roof, but depending on how you install it (i.e. cutting the hole bigger and allow the new pipe to rest on the tank) you will be caulking against a much cooler surface. I have a shed over my boiler now, so I'm not concerned about how water tight it is, and now I don't have to look at the ugly thing.



understand, thanks


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 22, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> won't you get that creosote oozing down between the original pipe and the extension pipe?



It's a ver tight fit, and insulated pipe, so I think the inside pipe temperature should be high enough to combat build-up, but this is only a guess since mine hasn't been fired up like this yet.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 22, 2009)

Well...... I just got off the phone w/ Shaver furnace and they have nice music playing in the background. Their personnel are marginally better but are friendly. It just seems we in the north are just at a different pace than they are. I really don't think they are trying to screw anyone its just they got too big too fast and relied on old technology... IMHO anyway.

Anyway.. thought others might want to know Shaver ( probably thanks to the first Shaver forum ) changed their blower and added a solenoid. They also have different kinds of stats that are available. Apparently it no longer has the flap that you manually set. I'm getting a picture sent to me ( its not on line yet for viewing ) and I'll try to post it when its received. Cost : $ 125 for the draft blower and solenoid. Its also has more CFM than the original. The original with the lower CFM is still available if one wants it. I've always had plenty of draft but the flap was a pain. I liked one person who shared a picture of his homemade draft door. It looked like something from an oil burner pipe that flaps with the pressure of the air. When no air is needed, its closed off. When it needs air and the draft motor kicks on the door swings open. He made a housing from sheet metal, took the blower draft door off and attached this to the blower. I'd really like to know how he made out last year with it. No wiring, etc. just worked with air pressure.

And... I want to play with this relocated stat and settings before I make a definitive statement pro or con.


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## trshmn (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi all, I put triple wall insulated pipe on mine down to the water jacket, cut the hole in roof bigger then resealed with silicone, where the triple wall sets against the water jacket I used 2 1/2 wraps of 1" rope gasket with silicone to hold it together, then sealed the triple wall to the water jacket, the reason for 2 1/2 wraps is because the triple wall pipe sets partially on top of the DHW cover and this will let it set strait, also the rope gasket helps hold back the heat from the shaver pipe at the very bottom of the triple wall, only will work if you remove the DHW coil and seal everything up for good, which I did, then built a side arm heat exchanger for DHW and installed on hot water tank, moved old pump for DHW out to wood burner and now going to use one pump for house and other for DHW and to heat the garage, I also did the other mods. and put r30 in sides and the roof and 2in. foamboard under it, I tried to post pics but it said the pic size was to big, could some one help with this so I can post pics??? I think seeing a pic along with descibing what you done is 10 times better. Thanks


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## trshmn (Sep 22, 2009)

Sorry I forgot to mention the triple wall was a three foot piece and it fit flush from water jacket to top of shaver pipe then stuffed 3/8 rope insulation between the two, if there is any creosote it won't be able to run down between.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 22, 2009)

I think insulating the chimney does several good things. It helps conserve the heat, reduces or eliminates condensation improves draft, and at least as important would reduce creosote by helping the stack stay hotter. The one time I had little draft and couldn't figure out what was going on was solved when I checked out a suggestion by one of our members to check for creosote in the pipe. Since I didn't add any pipe I didn't think of that. However upon checking I found the problem that was almost exactly where the pipe comes thru the roof. Creosote was the culprit. Since then I insulated the chimney and added a removable length of steel to the poker. I can now reach where the blockage was in the chimney w/out getting a ladder and hanging over the roof. This simple mod of insulating the chimney is probably overlooked by many. 

The way you went about it was more time consuming than the average guy would undertake but the benefits might well be worth it. At least we should be insulating it up to the roof.


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## david78 (Sep 22, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> . I liked one person who shared a picture of his homemade draft door. It looked like something from an oil burner pipe that flaps with the pressure of the air. When no air is needed, its closed off. When it needs air and the draft motor kicks on the door swings open. He made a housing from sheet metal, took the blower draft door off and attached this to the blower. I'd really like to know how he made out last year with it. No wiring, etc. just worked with air pressure.
> 
> My flapper worked great last winter. Reduced wood use and no more over temperature problems like I had with the stock setup. I think some kind of solenoid or self closing flapper is a must.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 23, 2009)

I was hoping you were monitoring this. For the folks who are either new or didn't see it, would you post a pic or two again and explain how you went about it ? Its so common sense it hard to believe no one else thought of it. One could even put a small screen mesh or filter in front that might extend blower life.


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## david78 (Sep 23, 2009)

It's on page 18 of the original Shaver improvement thread.


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## headleyj (Sep 23, 2009)

mine's not as simple but I've got a solenoid with a chain and a flapper, works just fine


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 23, 2009)

david78 said:


> It's on page 18 of the original Shaver improvement thread.


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## headleyj (Sep 23, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


>



where's the flapper? Is it inside that "intake" and hinged in the center with a small weight like a bathroom van/vent combo?


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## david78 (Sep 23, 2009)

The flapper is just inside the PVC pipe. It pivots on a little groove in the bottom of the collar. You can see the brass weight sticking down at the bottom of the pipe.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 23, 2009)

For some reason I thought it was made from a 3 or 4 inch or so metal pipe with a flapper assembly like you would find on an oil burner. But if plastic works.. all the better. However, I don't see the flapper either. On an oil burner the flapper assembly is like a collar that just goes on the end of a pipe that is cut into and joins the pipe coming out of the oil burner. I checked mine on the oil burner and it has to swing on an arm that goes thru the pipe from one end to the other. The assembly would only have to long enough to allow the full length of the flapper to be at 180 degree then go back to hanging straight up and down again. Maybe this is something different ?? What are we missing here ?

:monkey:


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## ngzcaz (Sep 23, 2009)

Duh... I see the weight. This is different from the one I have on the oil burner. The weight on mine is inside the flapper with it being adjustable as far as how much pressure it takes to open or close it. The flapper would be seen easily from a photo on mine. Thats why it was confusing.. Basically yours works the same way, just a different configuration. I noticed the space around mine on the oil burner and its maybe 1/8 inch space all the way around to allow the flapper to swing. More than enough on my 165 to keep a little smoke coming out the chimney.

Now for those interested are these still available and where they would get them ? I'd sure like to know if others followed your lead and what results they had..


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## headleyj (Sep 23, 2009)

david78 said:


> The flapper is just inside the PVC pipe. It pivots on a little groove in the bottom of the collar. You can see the brass weight sticking down at the bottom of the pipe.



so the flapper axis of rotation is vertical?? If so how does it close?

If it's horizontal with a small weight on one end I can see how that would work....dont understand this one if flapper axis is vertical. Unless it's spring loaded..that'd be a light spring.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 24, 2009)

Adams manufacturing has a 4 ,5, or 6 inch Draft o Matic barometric damper gizmo. There's a good picture on the website, $ 28.99. Just type it in on a general search.

:biggrinbounce2:


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## david78 (Sep 24, 2009)

Here are some not so great pictures of the flapper. It consists of a round collar with kind of a lip sticking out at the bottom that the flap rests/pivots on. The weight threads on the small bolt and can be threaded in toward the flap or out away from it to regulate how much draft it takes to open it. It was designed to replace the spin draft control on a stove. They're not making them anymore and I haven't been able to locate anything similar on the web. Shouldn't be too hard to make for someone who does metal work. Hope this helps.


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 24, 2009)

ngzcaz said:


> Adams manufacturing has a 4 ,5, or 6 inch Draft o Matic barometric damper gizmo. There's a good picture on the website, $ 28.99. Just type it in on a general search.
> 
> :biggrinbounce2:



Got a link?


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 24, 2009)

I found this

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ype=product&id=100396928&AID=10368321&cj=true


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## ngzcaz (Sep 25, 2009)

If you have Google.. type in : draft o stat The first 2 or 3 hits will take you there. The one at Depot looks to be a little more assembly required oriented. If the flapper isnt exactly in the center it wont open and close correctly. The draft of stat should much easier to install. I'm going to check local plumbing dealers today to see if any are in stock or they can get them.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 25, 2009)

David, how did you adjust your setup ? Did you just make sure the flapper was closed when the draft motor was off ? Any precise setting or just " seat of the pants " ? BTW, a 3 inch damper set up would still be slighter larger than the opening in the draft blower. I have 4 inches till I hit a pex pipe that runs to the house so I'm opting for the 3 inch if its available and will clear in my application.


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 25, 2009)

Found it!

http://www.hvacsolutionsdirect.com/product.php?productid=17&cat=86&page=



I really like this idea but I have some concerns. 

I wonder if natural draft or air currents wiil be enough to open this thing up when we don't want it open. 

Also, if the fan kicks on, I would think that the full force of air blowing in may cause too much heat to blow right out the chimney instead of heating the water as quick. Might cause extra wood consumption. Not sure just concerned.

I really like the idea of not needing to hook up a selenoid


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## ngzcaz (Sep 26, 2009)

Like you, I am a little concerned that the air flow ( would be the same as if you opened the slide all the way until the stat turns off the blower ) would be way more than its currently set. On the other hand, will the resulting fire be hotter than a restricted air flow and consequently turn the stat off quicker ? And with the damper closing most of the air supply, will that offset the bit more wood it would take ? I've never had my slide open much more than 1/3 even in the middle of winter. Most of the time its right around 1/4. Right now its a tad less than 1/4 when I did the test burn a few days ago. 

RE : natural draft currents etc.. if the damper is properly set and the rear door is closed I don't see how that would happen. If the rear door was open and subject to the wind then that could easily happen. Thats why I was curious how David set his up. In an oil burner setup the settings are very precise. I would think in this setup one could err by having it a bit harder to open. The best thing about this is its low cost and if it doesn't work, its extremely easy to remove. David didn't even take his slide off, he just slide it down to the all the way open position.

Bottom line is this sounds too good not to try..


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## trshmn (Sep 26, 2009)

A few pics of my mods


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## ngzcaz (Sep 26, 2009)

Nice job. Snow should have no problem staying on your roof..


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## trshmn (Sep 26, 2009)

more pics


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## trshmn (Sep 26, 2009)

more pics


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## hypothesis (Sep 27, 2009)

I wonder how a 4" diameter dryer vent draft blocker would work. It seems to operate on the same principal as a Draft o Matic barometric damper gizmo. It's made of plastic and cheap enough to experiment with at $4. If it doesn't work, then I can use it in the house.


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## hypothesis (Sep 27, 2009)

Like trshmn, I also cut my roof and slid an insulated 6" chimney pipe over the factory single wall chimney pipe. I used a 6 x 36" double wall insulated chimney. The double wall is not a wide as the triple wall therefore I didn't have any interference with the access plate for the water jacket. I use the factory domestic hot water coil so I need to be able to access the cover (once I cut through the silicone). 

At the top of the chimney assembly, there's about 2" of the factory single wall pipe sticking out of the top of the double wall chimney. There's still enough room at the top to attach one of the "twist lock" connection chimney caps if one wanted. There is some space to be taken up between the two and I suppose the rope gasket would work, but I didn't have any on hand, but I have plenty of extra tubes of silicone laying around from working on this furnace. I just filled in the gap with a liberal amount of silicone. 

Oh yea, and I did try that 500 lb. single wall pipe adapter that I ordered from Shaver, but it didn't work out. :censored:


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## david78 (Sep 28, 2009)

I haven't had any problems with natural draft pulling the flapper open. When the blower comes on, it doesn't pull the flapper down all the way to a 90 degree angle; more like a 30-45 degree angle. So it's not equivalent to having the stock flap open all the way. I'm guessing my setup would be like having the stock flap open 1/3 of the way or so. I could adjust the weight so it doesn't open as far, but it seemed to work pretty well last year so I haven't fooled with it.
On another note, I've had fiberglass insulation in the firebox door for about 10 months now and it has worked well but was starting to degrade and fall out. So I ordered some Kaowool, a ceramic mat good for 2300 degrees. It's denser than the fiberglass and should insulate better. I got 2 square feet from anvilfire.com which cost $24 shipped. The 1" thick fit just right.


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## trshmn (Sep 28, 2009)

hypothesis said:


> Like trshmn, I also cut my roof and slid an insulated 6" chimney pipe over the factory single wall chimney pipe. I used a 6 x 36" double wall insulated chimney. The double wall is not a wide as the triple wall therefore I didn't have any interference with the access plate for the water jacket. I use the factory domestic hot water coil so I need to be able to access the cover (once I cut through the silicone).
> 
> At the top of the chimney assembly, there's about 2" of the factory single wall pipe sticking out of the top of the double wall chimney. There's still enough room at the top to attach one of the "twist lock" connection chimney caps if one wanted. There is some space to be taken up between the two and I suppose the rope gasket would work, but I didn't have any on hand, but I have plenty of extra tubes of silicone laying around from working on this furnace. I just filled in the gap with a liberal amount of silicone.
> 
> Oh yea, and I did try that 500 lb. single wall pipe adapter that I ordered from Shaver, but it didn't work out. :censored:




I had some rope gasket laying around so I used it, hope your silicone works because it would be cheaper than buying the rope gasket, but on the original setup the factory pipe got so hot that the silicone pulled away from the pipe so I was worried about using it, let us know how it works out, also does anyone else after the end of the burning season have the buildup of rock hard creosote on the sides and back of the firebox, I had to use a air chisel to break it up, but now it's all cleaned out filled with water and ready to fire soon, this will be third year but first year was just 2 months of burning.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 28, 2009)

trshmn said:


> I had some rope gasket laying around so I used it, hope your silicone works because it would be cheaper than buying the rope gasket, but on the original setup the factory pipe got so hot that the silicone pulled away from the pipe so I was worried about using it, let us know how it works out, also does anyone else after the end of the burning season have the buildup of rock hard creosote on the sides and back of the firebox, I had to use a air chisel to break it up, but now it's all cleaned out filled with water and ready to fire soon, this will be third year but first year was just 2 months of burning.





Yeah, there's some creosote, more like a glaze at most spots. I was able to get the big spots with the poker. The rest will stay on to be burned off at the next hot fire. Few will attempt to remove all that junk. The CB'ers aren't doing it ( the ones I know anyway ) they throw some of that powder stuff that CB sells and let it go at that. After a couple of days of burning it reappears anyway. Supposedly that stuff isn't rock salt. I looked at the label and couldnt find out what it is. I thought it was required to list ingredients in case of accidental ingestion etc..

:monkey:


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## John D (Sep 28, 2009)

I did some insulating over the weekend.After being torn on whether or not to spray foam insulate it,I decided not too.I just do not trust the water jacket or enclosure 100% not to leak,and cause major problems down the road....
I never removed the rear panel,as it would involve a lot of work,and replumbing everything.I think the gains to be had there are next to none,as ive laid r19 batts over the entire area anyway.
I think the areas that are insulated are not in bad shape,its just that it was thrown on,and no attention was paid at the corners,and top to ensure 100% coverage.I ended up insulating the entire tope edges,as there insulation left a section of bare metal exposed,about 2-3" high the entire length of thr OWB,and on both sides.This had to be some of the reason the inside was do hot this winter,as the heat rose right into the roof area.I also insulated the section behind the OWB that houses the circulator,tstat, and door.I did this because on cold nights it would sweat inside there,due to the cold panels,I dont think it will now.Inside the roof,I fixed the sloppy mess shaver just threw it up there like a blanket,it wasnt even covering the whole top,I fied that and added almost a foot of insulation, 2 rows of unfaced r19 along the entire top.Im going to pull the unit up next week,pour a pad,and reinsulate under it better as i missed the corners a little.I also used 3 cans odf expanding foam to seal the rear area,and solarguard to stop air infiltration between the rear of the unit and the r19 i already installed.This should help hold the heat that area.Overall I spent under $100.00 and i hope it helps,it has too,as i covered over 2 sq ft of totally bare metal with 3-6" of insulation.I have a few pics ill load here.

The first pic is the factory setup after removing the side.
second pic you can clearly see the bare tank end that was not insualted at all.The op insulation didint come down the sides,and the sides was high enough.
3rd pic the entire top section is bare,once you pull down the barrier its clear to see how easy it air can get in there,and pull the heat right out of the storage tank.


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## John D (Sep 28, 2009)

more pictures,first one,look how poorly the top plate was welded on,my 12 yr old can lay a better bead,it looks to be a poor weld from a mig welder with not nearly enough heat,and going way too fast to get any type of penetration.I cleaned the entire length of the tank with parts cleaner,and applied a bead of silicone sealer along the entire length.There is no way it was sealed,although I didnt see signs of rust anywhere.I did it as a precaution.

2nd pic is the rear tank on left side(as viewed from front).Clearly again there is exposed metal.I put a small spot of expanding foam inside the ends of all the metal tubing to stop air movement thru them as well.

3rd pic you can see the insulation i added along the top of the tank,I did this on both sides.I taped it up to keep it in place.I didnt add any extra along the entire length as i felt it wouldnt help,it would have compressed the insuation that was already there,and compressed the new insulation I added,reducing there performance.


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## John D (Sep 28, 2009)

first pic is the right side going back together after i added insulation.
second picture is the front before going back together after adding insulation
third pic is front panel,and my messy work area while in progress.


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## John D (Sep 28, 2009)

Finally the front door openings prepped for sealer.I used a scraper and wire brush to clean the area,also a few cans of parts cleaner as well. I used 5 tubes of black silicone sealer to reseal the front of the unit.I did a much better job than shaver did.Hopefully the front top seal will hold up a little longer than there job did,time will tell. Overall I hope my time was worth it,I now have a better understanding of where everything is with this unit.I think all things being equal I will use less wood,how much less remains to be seen.I should be firing up here in a few weeks,depending on temps,the coldest its been is 39 at night now twice,and the house never got below 68,so need for heat yet.


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## headleyj (Sep 29, 2009)

John D - nice work and thank for the details and the pics....it really helps those (me) who are tentative about yanking the sheet metal.


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## hypothesis (Sep 29, 2009)

John D, I can only imagine that you'll reap the benefits of your labor. I too yanked the panels off and added extra insulation. I'm anxious to fire it up and see how it performs this season.


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## headleyj (Sep 30, 2009)

so Sunday I'm planning on ;
- Removing sheetmetal and reinsulating (have 2 rolls left over from house R24 I think? (24" wide)
- POR-15-ing framework (it'll take time to dry for sure)
- Installing Ranco controller with drywell (have copper well made up)
- Installing 6x36 DW insulated pipe (thank you for the Ace Hdwe PN!!)
- Installing overflow/ steam fix (2 sec job there)
- Resealing everything (have 1 caulk tube of the Black RTV Silicone) including DHW coil plate

and I think that's it.... 

oh! should prolly get pipe insulation huh for the PEX in the back there - that'd be a no brainer. 

*?'s*
1. Did anyone use rigid insulation anywhere instead of batts? If so why?

I've got tools covered, but if there's something oddball, fastener-wise or a "man it'd been alot easier if I had _______" please let me know what ya'll ran into. I hate to have to run into town during a project...we're 30 minutes from anywhere.


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## John D (Sep 30, 2009)

headleyj, i needed 5 tubes of black silicone all together..I spent over 30 dollars on it alone.I did seal the entire top plate to the boiler,see the welds in my pic,and the front door needed 2 tubes alone,the ash pan and ash pan door studds a tube,and the door posts,water fill valve and vent another tube......


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## headleyj (Sep 30, 2009)

John D said:


> headleyj, i needed 5 tubes of black silicone all together..I spent over 30 dollars on it alone.I did seal the entire top plate to the boiler,see the welds in my pic,and the front door needed 2 tubes alone,the ash pan and ash pan door studds a tube,and the door posts,water fill valve and vent another tube......



you're talking tubes - do you mean full size caulk gun size tubes, or the small tubes like what you get when you're slappin a valve cover back on?


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## John D (Sep 30, 2009)

headleyj said:


> you're talking tubes - do you mean full size caulk gun size tubes, or the small tubes like what you get when you're slappin a valve cover back on?



Im talking full size caulk gun tubes! im gunna buy it in 55 gal drums next time j/k. Trust me,pull back the insulation on the sides at the top,and look at the top plate weld,mine was horrible,id seal the entire top plate,if its leaking anywhere the steam will make a mess of the insulation and rust the framework....that only took a tube,and a few minutes too do.


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## headleyj (Sep 30, 2009)

John D said:


> Im talking full size caulk gun tubes! im gunna buy it in 55 gal drums next time j/k. Trust me,pull back the insulation on the sides at the top,and look at the top plate weld,mine was horrible,id seal the entire top plate,if its leaking anywhere the steam will make a mess of the insulation and rust the framework....that only took a tube,and a few minutes too do.



gotcha, wow 5 caulk tubes!!! Holy crap! That's almost $100 in silicone alone! wow! Thanks for the heads up man, guess I can always return them if I don't need them. I saw your pics, yeah those beads looked pretty bad. 

If you had it to do over gain would you still silicone it or would you JB weld it (I don't have a welder, but have a buddy who does welding and has a rig on his truck...hmmmmm...just now thought of that  )


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 30, 2009)

headleyj said:


> *?'s*
> 1. Did anyone use rigid insulation anywhere instead of batts? If so why?



I'm going to use rigid insulation, I have the sheets in my garage waiting to go, just waiting to finish up the shed over my boiler before I pull the panels off. I have the high density silver foil covered 1.5" 4x8 sheets ($25 ea. at home depot). I figured they aren't prone to losing their R-value when they get wet like fiberglass, they do a better job of stopping air infiltration, I can cut them to size to just barely fit inbetween the square tubing, then use the metal tape to seal everything up. The only place I'm not going to use them is on the top of the tank because of the chimney pipe, but I have that packed full with fiberglass anyway. FYI, I got the insulation idea from my thermospa hot tub, they are one of the only manufacturer's to no completely seal the tub with spray in foam. They used rigid boards custom cut to fit in all the voids.


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## headleyj (Sep 30, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> I'm going to use rigid insulation, I have the sheets in my garage waiting to go, just waiting to finish up the shed over my boiler before I pull the panels off. I have the high density silver foil covered 1.5" 4x8 sheets ($25 ea. at home depot). I figured they aren't prone to losing their R-value when they get wet like fiberglass, they do a better job of stopping air infiltration, I can cut them to size to just barely fit inbetween the square tubing, then use the metal tape to seal everything up. The only place I'm not going to use them is on the top of the tank because of the chimney pipe, but I have that packed full with fiberglass anyway. FYI, I got the insulation idea from my thermospa hot tub, they are one of the only manufacturer's to no completely seal the tub with spray in foam. They used rigid boards custom cut to fit in all the voids.



good to know - I'll pick up a few sheets just incase - thanks man.


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## urhstry (Sep 30, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> .....The only place I'm not going to use them is on the top of the tank because of the chimney pipe, but I have that packed full with fiberglass anyway......



What do you mean by this? I was going to lay a nice sheet of 2" blue panels on the botom and then layer R-19 over the top. Do you mean because of the heat and possible melting?


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 30, 2009)

urhstry said:


> What do you mean by this? I was going to lay a nice sheet of 2" blue panels on the botom and then layer R-19 over the top. Do you mean because of the heat and possible melting?



yeah, that chimney gets pretty hot, I think if I got a good fire going inside it the foam would catch on fire.


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## 26LCS (Sep 30, 2009)

A low budget chimney extension...6 x 5 reducer fits tight inside the shaver pipe,a small rolled over lip on the bottom piece thats screwed over the outside of the reducer takes up the gap on the outside, keeps it snug.. Three 2 footers on top was easy to lift off for cleaning...didn't drip til the reducer rotted out..and hasn't blow off...yet


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## Windwalker7 (Sep 30, 2009)

headleyj said:


> gotcha, wow 5 caulk tubes!!! Holy crap! That's almost $100 in silicone alone! wow! Thanks for the heads up man, guess I can always return them if I don't need them. I saw your pics, yeah those beads looked pretty bad.
> 
> If you had it to do over gain would you still silicone it or would you JB weld it (I don't have a welder, but have a buddy who does welding and has a rig on his truck...hmmmmm...just now thought of that  )



Where are you guys finding the black, hi-temp silicone in the caulking tube size? All I can find are the little tubes you get at auto parts stores.


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 30, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> Where are you guys finding the black, hi-temp silicone in the caulking tube size? All I can find are the little tubes you get at auto parts stores.



All I can find is the red/orange 600* stuff in caulk tubes.


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## ngzcaz (Sep 30, 2009)

When I originally got my unit there were a few spots that didn't look to be sealed properly. I called Ben Shaver and they sent 2 regular tubes of black RV sealant ( like you put in a caulking gun ) no charge so they have to be out there.

Re : blue insulation.. I wouldn't use that stuff w/in 2 inches or so of the chimney. Might not burn but it might melt and make a mess. If one would put an 8 inch black pipe ( leave it open and put it around the Shaver pipe ) then S.S. or aluminum tape it shut ( stuff it with unfaced fiberglass first ) you could put most anything around it and insulate the chimney to boot. I wouldn't even attempt to snap it shut in case it has to be removed. You could even angle it with at the same pitch as the roof for a snug fit. At this point I'm more interested in finding something to insulate the bottom without removing any panels. Lots of possibilities but no action on my part yet.

:greenchainsaw:


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## fletcher0780 (Sep 30, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-24105-Ultra-Black-Temp/dp/B000HBNU9U/ref=pd_sbs_auto_2


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## trshmn (Sep 30, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> All I can find is the red/orange 600* stuff in caulk tubes.



fletch, the red is better than the black, black is only 500*, I can find the black around here at every hardware store, but the red I got from a friend that works at a fiberglass plant.


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## ngzcaz (Oct 2, 2009)

Has anyone tried the foam type stuff they use to pack products with to insulate the bottom of the boiler ? Seems its the same material as foam coffee cups only in a wiggled 1 inch or so length. Does a good job for coffee at only 1/4 ich thickness so 3 inches should be great. A shop vac turned to blow instead of vacuum should blow it to the front of the unit if you're in the back where the controls are. 

Sounds easy and extremely cheap. Another plus is that it should be unaffected if it happens to get wet. Anyone know if they sell it for packing purposes ?


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## fletcher0780 (Oct 2, 2009)

Here's why I haven't been able to insulate my boiler yet, I hope to have to roof on and sides started next weekend (32'x14')...


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## headleyj (Oct 6, 2009)

got the Shaver stripped Sunday. Here's what I did:

- Coated entire frame in POR-15 - steam issues had it starting to rust
- Reinsulated underneath (1 layer of 1/2" Tuf-R sheathing adn taped the seams with sheathing tape, then a layer of R19 on top of that
- Reinsulated entire roof - discarded all the old stuff - still damp from steaming last year! I left ~ 2-3" clearance to the insulation all the way around the 3rd layer of pipe. 
- Siliconed top plate although it didn't look too bad, but since you're there why not...
- Installed 6" DW chimney pipe adn added a 7" piece under the roof only - so I have a homemade triple wall....kinda 
- Insulated all the nooks and crannies and taped them up with sheathing tape.
- On the sides there's about 9" or so in the rear that's not insualted (the part that is beside the pumps, valves, etc.) I insulated that too...on the outside.
- Sealed up the DHW coil cover - wow that was almost a tube in itself.
- Drilled hole adn installed Drywell with Rayco controller as mentioned on this thread. (Tip: held a large cup underneath where I was drilling hole to prevent shavings from falling down inside water jacket - obviously I did this before I sealed up the DHW coil plate.

*Left to do:*
- Insulate rear door
- Wire Rayco Controller up
- Find and install chimney cap

I took pics and will post if I can resize and figure out how to embed them.
I also need input on chimney caps - I'll start another thread on that one! 

Couldn't have done it w/o all of ya'lls help. Thank you all very much!!!

Josh


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 6, 2009)

I thought this might help when you wire up that Ranco.


The factory instructions weren't very clear to me.

This is much easier to understand with this diagram.

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=40898


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## headleyj (Oct 7, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I thought this might help when you wire up that Ranco.
> 
> 
> The factory instructions weren't very clear to me.
> ...



cool, thanks.....my work evidently has somethign that blocks the pics on that site.....I'll try adn get them from a buddy's house tonight.

Thanks again!!


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## Dan-o (Oct 7, 2009)

*blower mod*

I finished my blower mod the other night FINALLY! I might start burning this coming weekend, propane has been running a week now


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## trshmn (Oct 8, 2009)

Got all the mods. done, now going to be laid up awhile, just got home from shoudler surgery this morning. Going to be in 30's next week, have to leave the fireing up and loading to wife and son for awhile, was really looking forward to keeping track of all the mods., guess I can still do that with a 12oz beverage in my free hand


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## hypothesis (Oct 9, 2009)

Rutland makes a black hi-temp stove and gasket cement. It's rated for 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## jer427 (Oct 9, 2009)

trshmn said:


> guess I can still do that with a 12oz beverage in my free hand



Now that's my kind of pain management.


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## John D (Oct 10, 2009)

Finally got to pouring my concrete pad today.I had to unhook the owb and lift it off my temp pad.When i did i found the woodchucks had went under it and pulled down all my r19 i added last winter.They wont get under it when im done....The 250 is a heavy beast.My cat SS is very strong,and the 250 gives it a workout.I think a 290 would be about the limit of what it could handle without lifting from the side where i can get the bulk of the weight closer to the machine...


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## John D (Oct 10, 2009)

forming,setting up rebar and gettin her done.I finished it smooth then broomed it.


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## John D (Oct 10, 2009)

I finished this morning,I just made the weather window,my yard is getting soft,another week,and im not sure id even gotten the yard cart in there or the skid steer being able to lift the OWB without sinking.I brooomed and edged it,will pullthe forms tomorrow and start outting up a course of 8" block,and a cap block to raise it up a bit.Resetting it is going to be an issue without the shipping crate under it,ive got a few ideas,I really need a SS boom,which i dont have,but may be able to borrow one...then i can set it from the chimney.I have to get it quite high in the air to clear the lines,which is no problem on the pallet forks,but with a chain in the chimney im not sure i can get it that high without a SS boom.....


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 11, 2009)

Not sure if you guys caught my thread on my flapper for less than $20.

Fired the Shaver up today and things seem to be going good with it.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1763662#post1763662


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## headleyj (Oct 12, 2009)

well I fired up it up yesterday. Seems to be doin real well. Only got down to 43°F or so last night, but there was tons of wood left this morning...bout 9 hrs later. 

Ranco is doing well, I'll confess, I couldn't figure it out with how we had the stove wired - called the buddy who wired my stove - bout 20 minutes, she was done.

Almost r100 in the roof - holds heat real well!


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## ngzcaz (Oct 12, 2009)

Well John, there's little doubt you have the most time in your unit of any posts that I've seen. I hope it performs up to your expectations. In contrast, all I did was a little more insulation in the roof, a little in the door, and blew some foam chips that was used in packing boxes under the stove, same stuff as in a a styrofoam coffe cup, and a couple sheets of the solarguard I used to insulate the pex pipes in the rear of the stove. I am working on a different setup than mentioned here for the draft blower.


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## wat648 (Oct 12, 2009)

*burning wood*

Just installed my 250 a couple of months ago. Been heating my domestic water with it since then. Just got cold enough this weekend to use the heater in the house. Beyond my expectations!! Wife has it 75 in the house and loving it.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 12, 2009)

wat648 said:


> Just installed my 250 a couple of months ago. Been heating my domestic water with it since then. Just got cold enough this weekend to use the heater in the house. Beyond my expectations!! Wife has it 75 in the house and loving it.



It feels good being able to turn up the thermostat instead of worrying about paying the oil or propane man any extra.

Last year was our first year with the Shaver. Before that, we kept the thermostat 66-68.

Now its 73-75.

I've come home last year and my daughter would have it about 78. Luckily she'll even go out and throw some wood in it too.


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## headleyj (Oct 13, 2009)

Post Improvement Update:

Updated my 165 as many have done here and so far I notice the following:

1. Ranco controller operating beautifully (5°F differential, set at 140°F) - minimal overshoot 1-2°F maximum
2. 24 hr burn times easy where as before I would have to top it off each evening AND morning - even at 40°F....now it's 1x/ day AT MOST. Obviously due to additional insulation underneath, in roof and rear door.

I'll keep track of it and when the chimney cap comes in I'll see if there's any difference after that too.

Can't say enough about all the help/ advice I've received here regarding improving this stove. I'd say ~ $150-$200 total in improvements and 2 days of work and it'll be well worth it...especially in the long run.

Thanks for all your help!!!!


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## John D (Oct 13, 2009)

If your getting acceptable heat and HW with 140 degree water,that is great! That will save you a ton of wood in itself.


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## headleyj (Oct 13, 2009)

John D said:


> If your getting acceptable heat and HW with 140 degree water,that is great! That will save you a ton of wood in itself.



yeah the HW is the only part I "worry" about.

Instead of the CW line running into the WH I put a shut off valve before the WH to run the CW out to the boiler. Then when it comes back from the DHW coil in the boiler and runs into the WH where the CW used to run in. Basically it just preheats the water for the WH. My WH is set to 125°F.

I don't want to throw the WH breaker cause if water sits in the WH for an extended period of time and I want HW I'd have to run all the cold out of the WH and the line to the boiler before I get HW (50-60 gal).

Is it worth it to wire up another pump and temp sensor on the WH itself? Is there another way that's a compromise b/t the 2?

Any thoughts here are appreciated.
Thanks,
Josh


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm sure you read the other thread about hooking up the hot water.


There is only about a minute wait at the very most before water is hot coming out the faucet. Probably not even that.

Only slightly longer wait than when the electric is heating it.

This saves me about $30-$40 a month off of the electric bill.

Well worth a few seconds of waiting.

Even if you factor in the price of another pump, it will pay for itself shortly.


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## headleyj (Oct 13, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I'm sure you read the other thread about hooking up the hot water.
> 
> 
> There is only about a minute wait at the very most before water is hot coming out the faucet. Probably not even that.
> ...



No I didn't see that before, just now did.....I jsut go to my User CP to check threads...haven't browsed the Firewood/ Heating forum in awhile - thanks!!!

Yeah I can just completely bypass the WH OR do the pump idea - that's basically what Shaver recommends in their book I think...anyways, thanks for bringing that thread to my attention!!!


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 13, 2009)

headleyj, 

Maybe you missed this thread too?


http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=110817


Its about a cheap and easy mod for the draft blower.


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## headleyj (Oct 13, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> headleyj,
> 
> Maybe you missed this thread too?
> 
> ...



I've already got a solenoid with a chain and a flapper on my blower - thank you though!!


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## wat648 (Oct 13, 2009)

I just checked the air temp coming from the vents in the house. 
150F water temp at stove= 115F at vent
What do you guys think?
Also, how do I add my "stuff" to the bottom of my posts i.e. chainsaws,tractor, etc.


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## urhstry (Oct 13, 2009)

wat648 said:


> Also, how do I add my "stuff" to the bottom of my posts i.e. chainsaws,tractor, etc.




Go to your USER CP and add it there in your signature


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## 26LCS (Oct 13, 2009)

A DHW recirc pump works real good on our 165...hot water at the tap in seconds...we worth the $100 cost....less waste water to the septic tank too...


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## trshmn (Oct 14, 2009)

Fired up yesterday at 12:00 noon, just about an hour to get up to temp, unbeleivable!!!!!!!, the stock setup would take 4-5 hours with the damper 1/4 open, set at 145 and 10 deg. diff., working perfect.


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## headleyj (Oct 14, 2009)

trshmn said:


> Fired up yesterday at 12:00 noon, just about an hour to get up to temp, unbeleivable!!!!!!!, the stock setup would take 4-5 hours with the damper 1/4 open, set at 145 and 10 deg. diff., working perfect.



same experience here. World of difference seen on startup.


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## John D (Oct 14, 2009)

headleyj said:


> same experience here. World of difference seen on startup.



Amazing how fast they can recover,and build temps when they can get a good amount of air to the fan inlet isnt it?With mine bone stock and up on blocks,and stock insulation,i needed the door 2/3 open just too keep it from cooling below 160...with the blower on....


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## trshmn (Oct 14, 2009)

Still have some smoke coming out during the down cycle, but open the door and no fire or anything, just black charcoal wood, so far a big improvement on wood usage, Don't know if I'll get by with once a day when it gets real cold but so far all's good, this forum and all the idea's is going to save us all a bunch of wood Thanks guys, Bruce


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 14, 2009)

It works like a completely different machine now!

Thank you everyone!

You'd think Shaver would have these mods right from the factory. They aren't that expensive or hard to do.


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## headleyj (Oct 15, 2009)

trshmn said:


> Still have some smoke coming out during the down cycle, but open the door and no fire or anything, just black charcoal wood, so far a big improvement on wood usage, Don't know if I'll get by with once a day when it gets real cold but so far all's good, this forum and all the idea's is going to save us all a bunch of wood Thanks guys, Bruce





Windwalker7 said:


> It works like a completely different machine now!
> 
> Thank you everyone!
> 
> You'd think Shaver would have these mods right from the factory. They aren't that expensive or hard to do.



trshmn - exactly the same here - I can go 24 hrs now on 1 load of wood pretty easily. After I get the Vacu-Stack chimney cap on in the next few days we'll see if it makes any difference with the rain we've been having

Windwalker - absolutely right - it's completely different - even the wife commented on how little I had to tend to the stove. I think I've got ~$200 in all these mods - very inexpensive for the payback you get


*? to all *- with doublewall chimney are you guys slamming the insulation directly against it or leaving an airspace? I've got a home-made triplewall basically and left insulation ~ 2" from the chimney. Think this will promote condensation in that airspace in the cold months? Roof is defintely warm and would not hold snow right above that airspace.


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 15, 2009)

I used the double wall pipe around the chimney. I believe it was you that posted that link it. The one from ACE hardware. That's the one I got.

Anyway, I filled the whole attic of the Shaver with that pink insulation and wrapped some around the chimney too.

To be honest, I didn't check for condensation. I didn't have a problem last year without the doublewall slid over the chimney.

Next time out, I'll check. Might be a while, since the wood lasts so long now, LOL.


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## trshmn (Oct 15, 2009)

I filled the whole attic area with insulation, so yes mine is against the insulated pipe, the whole roof feels cold on outside and don't see any condensation on inside.


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## headleyj (Oct 15, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I used the double wall pipe around the chimney. I believe it was you that posted that link it. The one from ACE hardware. That's the one I got.
> 
> Anyway, I filled the whole attic of the Shaver with that pink insulation and wrapped some around the chimney too.
> 
> ...



if you wrapped the chimney with insuation you certainly won't get condensation. I left a 2" airspace b/t my insulation and the chimney because I didn't want the insulation to charr/ burn/ get too hot. The old solargaurd I took out was wicked charred.


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## headleyj (Oct 15, 2009)

trshmn said:


> I filled the whole attic area with insulation, so yes mine is against the insulated pipe, the whole roof feels cold on outside and don't see any condensation on inside.



no worries about insulation breaking down due to high heat exposure?


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## trshmn (Oct 16, 2009)

headleyj said:


> no worries about insulation breaking down due to high heat exposure?



No, it has triple wall pipe around the shaver pipe, from the top of water jacket up through the roof


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## headleyj (Oct 16, 2009)

trshmn said:


> No, it has triple wall pipe around the shaver pipe, from the top of water jacket up through the roof



cool. I've been tryin to feel the chimney inside mine (triple wall under the roof) and it doesn't feel _that_ hot to the touch after it's been running awhile. Can't hold your hand on it for long but.....anyways. thanks man, I'll prolly layer more insulation directly around the chimney thi sweekend when I put the chimney cap on.

Thanks again.


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## John D (Oct 17, 2009)

I finally got everything finished and fired it up yesterday! Im very happy so far,in fact the insulation changes have definetely helped.When I reinsulated the bottom,I got a lot of spots i didnt get last winter when it was on the shipping pallet.I am noticing that its holding 180 degrees with the damper shut forever.The wood use is down,from last spring,when temps were similar to what they are now.Its been 37-42 during the day and 30-33 at night with wind and not much sun...I had to work in the rain and wind a bit,but i think im finally done working on this thing for now....pics to follow.


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## John D (Oct 17, 2009)

Setting the OWB was a little tricky,I used my ever handy Caterpillar SS and a homemade lifting bar off the front of the pallet forks.In addition I used a strap that i hooked into the ash pan opening and onto the pallet forks to help stabilize the unit and adjust its forward/rear pitch.Ill say this that 250 is HEAVY.Luckily my machine is strong or id had to hire out moving it. After setting the unit,I had to lengthen the water lines 4" as it now sits 4" higher than it sat last yr when it was on the shipping pallet and setting on a row of 8" blocks.I reconnected everything partially filled it,and rinsed it,refilled it and fired her up.It took less than 2 hrs to get up to temp,last yr it took double that easily.


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## John D (Oct 18, 2009)

One last thing I noticed,the OWB is working great,definetely using less wood,the only issue is that even with the damper mod,and the door shut all the way with mid 30 degree weather,after a few hrs of idling the temps will creep about a degree or 2 an hr upward....its usually not a big deal since a zone calls for heat or someone uses hot water every few hrs.But I seen 188 inside last night,a few hrs after it had worked with a 184 shutoff.I think the extra insulation is almost working too good....I took a look at the ash pan door,it seems to be shut fully,going to see if the the wood door is sealing all the way.I didnt make any changes to any of that since last year.


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## fletcher0780 (Oct 18, 2009)

making progress, hope to be finished with the shed this week, then start adding insulation and fire the boiler:


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## headleyj (Oct 19, 2009)

Fletcher and John D - awesome work fellas! 

It's well worth it! I was so used to feeding mine 2x/day last year....now it's 1x/ day and it really doesn't need that....I actually forgot to feed mine for about 36 hrs this weekend, fire ended up going out of course.

Insulation definetly the most bang for the buck here , wow can't believe how long it holds a temp!


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## John D (Oct 19, 2009)

Fletcher,it looks great so far! I wish I had the $$ and will to spend more time at our building dept for another building permit to build one...


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## John D (Oct 19, 2009)

It was 27 here last night,i loaded at 7pm last night,as my kids where taking showers,i took one after so i didnt smell like the owb.i did a dishwasher load,and my tenants used water as usual.So we had 6-8 showers taken,heat for both units w stats set at 72.I didnt even burn 2 log about 30" long and 8-9" around in 14 hrs! I had 4 logs on the firelast night,had about 2 left this morning,probably could have went a full 24 hrs easily.To say Im happy now is an understatement.I couldnt be happier with the wood use now,I think im going to save a lot of work,and stretch my wood supply out ,maybe get another full season out of the 25-30cord or so ive got gathered so far.I spent under $100.00 on insulation,so far best bang for the buck outside my ranco stat...


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## fletcher0780 (Oct 19, 2009)

John D said:


> Fletcher,it looks great so far! I wish I had the $$ and will to spend more time at our building dept for another building permit to build one...



Building permit, What's that


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## John D (Oct 19, 2009)

fletcher0780 said:


> Building permit, What's that



LOL! I know what you mean,but ive got plans down the road to do more on my 22 acres.If I get on the bad side of the towns building dept,they will make sure my applications and permits,esp with respect to subdivision are bogged down ,and slow the process. Ive seen it done,and its not pretty.....BTW I got a permit for my OWB,now they are in the process of banning them all around me,and im legally grandfathered in here now,all my friends that didnt pay the $50.00 permit fee will be given 90 days to remove theres....or face fines,and prosecution.I think im doing the right thing here,my dad never pulled permits for anythign he did my whole life,when he sold the house it was a nightmare,took months to resolve and cost thousands,several things had to be demod as they didnt meet code(sheds,3 season porch).They could have lost the buyer easily.There are only 4 "legal" OWBs in my town,building inspector knows of over 35 OWBS,so theres 30+ illegal...


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## bluscout (Oct 23, 2009)

*Shaver 165 Comments and a question*

Have been lurking here for a while now. Wow! What a wealth of information. You guys have quite a network here!
I'm to take delivery of or go and pick up two furnaces for my parents and myself. I plan to do some work on it before I put it in service and have quite a list.
My first comment is about the seal between the firebox and the siding. The exposed silicone looks to me like a bad deal. I'm planning to remove the skin from the front of the furnace and install J-trim around the area. I can't see a downside to this.
I have seen an insulation blanket treatment used in boilers at powerplants that is used to slightly wet the blankets. When exposed to heat it dries out and solidifies. The goal that we had was to avoid the looser insulation blankets being torn apart and getting sucked out of small holes in our cladding due to hot high velocity gasses. It worked like a champ. We used Kaowool blanket material. It is made by Thermal Dynamics. The liquid is made by the same company and is called Rigidizer. Temps at your firebox door probably aren't hot enough to activate it buy you could use a torch. 
Now for my question, I read somthing about relocating the return line to somewhere up on the front of the waterbox. What is the verdict on this change?


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## bluscout (Oct 23, 2009)

*Link to Kaowool and Rigidizer*

Don't know how the prices are here but this is what I mentioned above. http://http://www.sheffield-pottery.com/Bricks-Refractories-and-Kaowool-s/349.htm


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## Windwalker7 (Oct 23, 2009)

Welcome to the site!

Lots of good info in here.

I did not do the return water relocation mod.

I've done several mods though. They really improved the performance of the Shaver.

I highly recommend the Ranco thermostat mod. It really helps.

I also feel that the blower needs some kind of flapper. Whether you got the improved Shaver version or not, I don't know, but you definitely need to have a flapper. I have a thread on how I did mine with a dryer vent flapper and others, on here, have used a solenoid. It seems Shaver copied the solenoid idea.

Insulate everything. I insulated the firebox door, the rear access door, under the water jacket, the chimney pipe, and the attic of the Shaver.

Some of us slid either 6" double wall or triple wall insulated pipe over the 5.5" chimney of the Shaver. Seems to cut down on creosote.

These mods have transformed my Shaver into a much better unit.

I get longer burn times and have no problems getting the water up to temp quickly.

You will like your OWB! There's nothing like being able to turn up the thermostat, in your home, after keeping it low for many years, just to save on heating oil or propane. It feels great!

It's alot of work getting everything ready and sometimes a bit overwhelming, but it is all worthwhile in the end.

By the way, we like to see pics


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## littlebow (Nov 19, 2009)

*ranco 111000 for shaver*

New to the site and have a question for you shaver owners on wiring the ranco up. How did you guys do it. i have just the two wires going to the factory thermostat. Please help. Do you need a transformer. thanks


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## John D (Nov 19, 2009)

littlebow said:


> New to the site and have a question for you shaver owners on wiring the ranco up. How did you guys do it. i have just the two wires going to the factory thermostat. Please help. Do you need a transformer. thanks



Welcome to AS! Follow the instructions with the Ranco,you need to run the power,neutral and ground into the Ranco.....I did mine last yr,not sure exactly how i did it,if no one else chimes in Ill go out and look in the Am when its light out.I think i ran a 14/2 Hot all the time power feed,into the Ranco,and and a 14/2 out and to the blower...


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## littlebow (Nov 19, 2009)

Wow , you guys are fast. If you could look in the a.m. that would be great. Just give it to me simple, I'm kinda thick when it comes to electrical. hehe


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## Windwalker7 (Nov 19, 2009)

These might help!


http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?t=644


http://pumpkinpicker.auburnbrewclub...a-ranco-etc-111000-000-single-stage-rheostat/


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## littlebow (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for sites you gave me .I've seen the one before but where do the two black wires going to my original thermostat go.


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## fletcher0780 (Nov 20, 2009)

littlebow said:


> Thanks for sites you gave me .I've seen the one before but where do the two black wires going to my original thermostat go.



one goes to the "c" terminal, and the other goes to the "NO" terminal

You will have 4 wires total:

1 black - hot all the time (to the 120V terminal)
1 white - neutral (to the "com" terminal)
1 black - hot all the time, the wire that fed your old thermistat (to the "C" terminal)
1 black - switched power, the wire that fed your blower from the old thermistat (to the "NO" terminal)

(you could actually use a jumper wire from the 120v terminal to the C terminal, but then you'd have an extra unused wire from your old thermistat, so do whatever works best for you.)


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## littlebow (Nov 20, 2009)

Thank you guys for the help , I got it now. Shaver told me I needed a transformer. They were wrong!! Gotta do the steam fix next. Great info here, keep up the good work.


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## Windwalker7 (Nov 20, 2009)

Transformer???



While your into doing mods, check this out.

It works great and is cheap and easy to do. Saves on wood usage.


http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=110817


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## fletcher0780 (Nov 20, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> Transformer???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You only need a transformer if you got the 12v ranco. Make sure yours is rated at 120/240v.


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## littlebow (Nov 20, 2009)

That's what I told them and alternative heating faxed over a wiring diagram showing the etc 111000 wired using a transformer. Shaver said people were burning up their controllers and wanting a new one so a transformer was needed. I like the blower mod but to late, I have a new 75cfm blower with selenoid on the way but i'll probably mod the old blower as my spare. Thanks again.


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## John D (Dec 12, 2009)

Im bring this back up because this week we have finally got a real arctic blast of cold air to test my work I did this summer.It has been cold and windy the last few days here,thursday night was 15-16 degrees with 25-40 mph winds.Temps never got over 25 yesterday for a high.The Shaver is finally having to work a little,and I must say that I am very happy with the improvement in burn times from my increases in insulation,esp with windy weather.It seems me filling in all the voids,and air gaps and adding insulation over,and under has added a few hours to my burn times easily. I just came in from loading the boiler,and when I opened the door,I was suprised to see a lot of wood remaining,the front portion of all the logs were burnt,but the back 1/2 of them were still intact!I grabbed the poker,an pulled them into the hole up front,added one large crotch that i save for daytime burns because they take up a lot of space.I am going out in the Am now on overnight burns with enough still in the firebox to last all day if i wanted too,even in this cold snap.I feel the extra insulation is definitely worth the time and money.You dont need to use spray foam,although im sure it would help even more,$50.00 worth of batts worked great for me.


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## littlebow (Dec 13, 2009)

*shaver mods*

Ok, guys, I got the ranco wired up and love it, water temp is alot easier to control, that simple steam fix works great, havn't had to add any water in 2 weeks and the new 75 cfm blower with selenoid is like a flame thrower. brings my water temps up 12 degrees on my 250 in about 9 minutes. Thanks guys.


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## fletcher0780 (Dec 13, 2009)

littlebow said:


> Ok, guys, I got the ranco wired up and love it, water temp is alot easier to control, that simple steam fix works great, havn't had to add any water in 2 weeks and the new 75 cfm blower with selenoid is like a flame thrower. brings my water temps up 12 degrees on my 250 in about 9 minutes. Thanks guys.



What blower are you using, and where did you get it?


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## littlebow (Dec 14, 2009)

Its a dayton blower model-1tdp3 75 cfm with seleniod and flapper that I bought from weldrite. 125 bucks. I think they make about 50 bucks for the fab work. Worth it for me.


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## trshmn (Dec 23, 2009)

just went out this morning to load wood burner and decided to take a look in back side to check temp, pumps, and everything, I have temp set at 145*-155*, temp was at 135*, looked down and blower was'nt running but the solenoid was and the damper was open, I spun it a few times with finger and it took off but squealed a little, going to go out later spray some wd 40 on shaft, has anyone else had this happen and what did you do to fix it, It's the stock Dayton blower that came with the shaver.


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## ngzcaz (Dec 23, 2009)

Aren't those sealed units ?


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## hypothesis (Jan 2, 2010)

Mine also stopped last week. I tapped on it with the screw driver handle and it started right up. I guess it just got a little sticky and decided to hang up.


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## david78 (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm on the second winter with mine and haven't had any problems with the blower yet. But I'm thinking now that it would probably be a good idea to have a spare on hand. Because of course when it goes out it will be a night like tonight: 8 degrees, snowing and the wind blowing.


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## John D (Jan 2, 2010)

david78 said:


> I'm on the second winter with mine and haven't had any problems with the blower yet. But I'm thinking now that it would probably be a good idea to have a spare on hand. Because of course when it goes out it will be a night like tonight: 8 degrees, snowing and the wind blowing.



Yup,im thinking the same thing,a spare blower,and circulator isnt a bad idea....they seem to fail at the worst time...


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## derwood91 (Jan 4, 2010)

Same problem with my Natures Comfort. a while back I awoke at appprox. 2 am with nature calling. I always check my temps when I awake in the middle of the night and this time it was 30 low. Put on my jacket, went out and thought it was weird that the fan wasn't running. Solenoid had the damper open but no fan. Verified operating voltage at the fan motor, shut the power down, and finally found the fan cage semi stuck. Spun it back and forth with my finger and it freed up. Power up and all was good again. Went to Grainger that day and purchased a replacement blower figuring that it would require replacement by the time I got home from work. I have yet to replace the original 6 plus weeks later and it seems fine. At least now I have a spare. Kind of weird that it seized up just the one time. I would have figured it to be noisy or intermittent after something like that, but it seems to be running like new................


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## projectsho89 (Jan 4, 2010)

derwood91 said:


> Same problem with my Natures Comfort. a while back I awoke at appprox. 2 am with nature calling. I always check my temps when I awake in the middle of the night and this time it was 30 low. Put on my jacket, went out and thought it was weird that the fan wasn't running. Solenoid had the damper open but no fan. Verified operating voltage at the fan motor, shut the power down, and finally found the fan cage semi stuck. Spun it back and forth with my finger and it freed up. Power up and all was good again. Went to Grainger that day and purchased a replacement blower figuring that it would require replacement by the time I got home from work. I have yet to replace the original 6 plus weeks later and it seems fine. At least now I have a spare. Kind of weird that it seized up just the one time. I would have figured it to be noisy or intermittent after something like that, but it seems to be running like new................



The blower on my NC froze on me last Feb just like you described. I freed it up and it's still running fine....


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## hypothesis (Jan 6, 2010)

This is the second season for the original Dayton blower on my 290. Since I freed it up a couple weeks ago, I haven't had any problems. I do have a spare on hand as well as an extra circulator pump, just in case.


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## trshmn (Jan 7, 2010)

mine has been working fine since that first time it froze, figured it would'nt hurt any to spray with wd40 whether it's sealed or not, I have an extra blower that's more powerful than the dayton but it will need a little mod. to work, but really need to get an extra pump to keep on hand.


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## Ash wacker (Jan 17, 2010)

This past week my blower on the Shaver 290 quit. This is the second one on my unit to go. Both had the same problem,they wouldn't run unless I spun the squirrel cage. I baught one last year from Grangers and then I got a hold of Shaver and they replaced the origanal. I put that one on Thursday but I did the dryer vent blower mod to it. What a diffarence in my wood use and recovery time! Thanks to everyone who "tinkers" to make these things better.


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## hypothesis (Jan 18, 2010)

No prob Ash wacker. Glad to help.


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## Cylon67 (Jan 23, 2010)

*Shaver Mods List?*

Hello Everyone. I appreciate all the postings on the shavers. As I am installing radiant floor heat( retrofit) in my home come spring, I will be adding an outdoor boiler. I decided on a Shaver. I have been reading all the mods and "wish this was better" and wondered> Has anyone put together a more comprehensive list of necessary and recommended mods? I also have been taking notes on complaints such as small weld errors etc, so that I could possibly address these when I order. Thanks again.


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## Alan Smith (Jan 23, 2010)

think about http://www.centralboiler.com/models.php


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## Cylon67 (Jan 23, 2010)

*On the fence between Shaver and Central*

Thanks for the prompt reply Alan. Seems you think Central is better? I have debated these 2 companies back and forth. Any particular reason that I may not realize? I can still be persuaded to change for the right logic. Thanks.


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## Alan Smith (Jan 23, 2010)

haven't seen any one modified their central boiler yet


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## John D (Jan 24, 2010)

Cylon67 said:


> Thanks for the prompt reply Alan. Seems you think Central is better? I have debated these 2 companies back and forth. Any particular reason that I may not realize? I can still be persuaded to change for the right logic. Thanks.



Did you read the entire thread? If so,after reading,you would still want one? You have the benefit of this site,and the information here.If I had this resource before I ordered mine,rest assured I would not have bought a Shaver! Yes I "saved" 2200 dollars over a central boiler,but trust me,Id been better off not saving it,as Ive had to invest many hours and days working on it and additional money that I shouldnt have had to spend...I think you should run,not walk away from a Shaver unless its dirt cheap.....Also the boiler Central Boiler was going to sell me was the 6048,held 393 gallons of water,Shaver wanted to sell me a 165..held 165 gallons...I went up to a 250 Shaver (230 gallon),and I wish Id went bigger.Had I went with the Shaver 340,which is Shavers biggest,yet still not as big as a CB6048,the cost would have been within 1000 dollars..not much difference... Central boilers recommendation was right on the money for a trouble free OWB experience...as it is even after upsizing the Shaver,I still need to load 2x a day ,sometimes 3 in real cold weather for best performance. So if you settle on a shaver,go up 2 sizes from what they recommend,if they try to sell you a 165-get a 290..,and you'll still wish you went bigger...


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## Cylon67 (Jan 27, 2010)

*OK I give*

Sometimes it takes being smacked in the back of the head to see the light! Ok, I get it. Shavers out. CB it is. Looks like a 6048 will be coming my way this summer. I called to get a quote today on materials for the radiant heat. Actually, I called 2 places. I can't wait to get started. Meantime, we have another large snowstorm heading our way for Fri/Sat. Now, if I can only get off the grid......


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## headleyj (Jan 28, 2010)

Cylon67 said:


> Sometimes it takes being smacked in the back of the head to see the light! Ok, I get it. Shavers out. CB it is. Looks like a 6048 will be coming my way this summer. I called to get a quote today on materials for the radiant heat. Actually, I called 2 places. I can't wait to get started. Meantime, we have another large snowstorm heading our way for Fri/Sat. Now, if I can only get off the grid......



you'll be glad that smack took hold  If i had it to do over again, I'd spend the extra $ and go CB as well.


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## John D (Jan 28, 2010)

I just hope I helped push you away from a Shaver....would want you to have to go thru what I have,I wish it on no one....


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## smus (Jan 28, 2010)

You guys are certainly entitled to your opinions, I enjoy my Shaver and the fact I saved a good bit of change on its purchase over others.
I have also enjoyed "tinkering" with it making the mods suggested here. I have no other experience with other makes and models, just my experience with this one.
I could not afford a CB or one of the other higher end units as I am forced to get by on a fixed income. Shaver has done what is suppose to do. I put wood in it a couple times a day and it heats my house and hot water like it should.
I also have a "93 chev 4x4 that gets me back and forth to town when I need and gets me there in the same time and condition as my neighbors new Super Duty takes him. Mines paid for tho and I dont have all those dollars tied up in it.


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## bluscout (Jan 28, 2010)

*I like my Shaver too.*

First off, I agree with what others have said on this forum. A Shaver is to a XXXX brand furnace as a GMC is to a Caddilac.
I was able to pick up furnaces up for my dad and I at Weld Rite in Salem so we saved a bunch on shipping.
I put mine on top of about a 12" slab. I also left it on the shipping pallet. Then I filled the entire cavity under the water box down to the slab with foam board. The sides of the slab also got 1" foam board. 

I pulled the sides and roof off so I could:
Beef up the insulation up on the sides, tape up all seams, and add two layers of solar guard.
Add more insulation batts in the attic area.
Put a 6" stove pipe around the factory pipe and an 8" around that. I loosely packed fiberglass in that void.
Seal the access door for the DHW coil really well. This is one area where they could do much better! I found some gutter sealant made by GE at Home Depot. It has a service temp rating up to 400F. Comes in a white tube with green writing.
I extended the upper left water box penetration about 30" toward the front of the stove to promote better water circulation. I take my water to heat the house from there.
When the steel siding and roof was ready to go back on I extended the roof 2feet on the front and 1 foot in the back. I also ran the siding down over the shipping pallet and concrete slab.
While I was insulating I took the back door skin off and put some batts in there too.

I use the stock Cheesy thermostat. I glued it to the back of the water box where Shave intended for it to go. Most of the time my temps stay within about 15 to 20 degrees but at times it swings as much as 30. I'm not all that concerned with it. If the water is cooler than normal the air handler will run a little while longer, if it is hotter then it runs less.

I removed the damper from the fan and put a pvc drain elbow ( 2" I think) in it's place on the other end of the elbow is a reducer with a light foam rubber ball inside. When the fan is off the ball falls down and seals the end of the reducer. When the fan is on the ball floats up and lets the fan draw past it. I installed the damper to it seals the inlet to the reducer.

I insulated the area between the fire door and the deflector with fiberglass batting.

I spent most of a couple days doing this but could have hustled a little more and shaved about half a day I think.

Here's the bottom line for me. After reading and reading and reading posts here I decided I'd rather have a Shaver AND a Northern 37 ton splitter instead of a CB or a Taylor for about the same money. Your mileage may vary. 

My dad isn't installing his for this season but is looking forward to having an ash grate. His Taylor doesn't. I made a 12" X 14" shovel that is contoured to match the floor of the Shaver to empty the ashes with. 

Sorry this post got so long. I didn't realize I had that much to say.


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## headleyj (Jan 29, 2010)

to each his own man, to each his own. My Shaver works well after I modified it all too, but looking back now I would still go with CB. I'm glad you like yours, I really am man.....either way we all saving tons of $ and feeding that CAD!!!! I guess I was just disappointed in all the mods I had to do to get it to perform correctly (in my opinion of course). Even with all my "mods", mine still doesn't perform as well as a CB (I know a fella who has a 1 year old CB 5036).....then there's teh overall quality of it. IMO, Shaver just doesn't have it. So that sums up my thoughts.....will I ever upgrade? maybe...we'll see.


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 29, 2010)

I might as well chime in!

Overall, it is easy to admit that Shaver units aren't up to par with CB. Central Boiler units are very well made and have a great reputation.

That being said, I know I never could have afforded a CB. It was a Shaver or nothing for me.

The price difference was enough for me to buy the Shaver. Yes I had to do several mods. The mods didn't take all that much time or money. Maybe $200 or so in mod material (6" flue pipe, insulation, Ranco thermostat and my blower mod)

I actually enjoyed tinkering with it!

If money were no object I might have gotten a CB but the couple thousand $$$ savings made it possible for me to have an OWB.

Like I said, if money is no object get the better made, higher priced, plug and play Central Boiler. If you are on the edge an willing to do a few mods, get the Shaver.


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## scag52 (Jan 29, 2010)

I just did the blower flapper mod from shaver. What a difference ! This mod alone has increased the burn times. I'm trying to get to a once a day load. Not there yet but getting close. Just bought a couple of rancos off of ebay so we'll see what they do . Not expecting much as my stock stat is working pretty good .


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 29, 2010)

You'll like the Ranco with a dry well mod.

You'l be able to see the actual water temp. With a 5* differential setting, you will get back up to temp quickly. Your blower won't run near as much to recover the temp.

I have mine set at 150* with blower kicking on at 145*.

Seemed like the stock stat would lose 15*-20* before blower would kick on and it took longer for the temp to recover with the stock blower being only 1/4 open.


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## scag52 (Jan 29, 2010)

I figured from all the reading i've done on them i better get one so i bought 2 on ebay for around 100 bucks. My hot water cover is sealed good and i really dont want to take it off . It had really sloppy holes cut into it around the top corners . I filled them up with silicone. I was wondering if i could drop the copper dry well in there . What do you think.?


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## John D (Jan 29, 2010)

Windwalker7 said:


> You'll like the Ranco with a dry well mod.
> 
> You'l be able to see the actual water temp. With a 5* differential setting, you will get back up to temp quickly. Your blower won't run near as much to recover the temp.
> 
> ...



How are you getting away with 150-145 temp settings? I'd save a ton of wood if i could run mine that cool....I need 180 to get decent recovery times on the zones....180 outside is 170 inside with a zone on,160 with 2 zones,and 155 with 3....the DHW zone will not satisfy at all it will,it run non stop if the heat is on.....if I hooked up the coil in the shaver,I may be able to lower it a little,but still have a 2 family,so I cannot priority a zone.....i need multiple zones to heat simutaneously,and DHW at the same time...Ive considered running pex to the DHW,and using it.I have an empty 4" drain pipe in the ground for that.I also have some scrap sections of 1"black poly pipe.I was thinking about running the 3/4" inside the 1" and pulling them thru,but there would be zero insulation,just the 1" to keep any water off the 3/4",thats whats keeping me from using it..With my water temps at 180 on 185 off,I get great performance,and good hot water recovery.Not as good as when the oil is used,but acceptable.


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## scag52 (Jan 29, 2010)

I use the shaver hot water coils. One for the house and the other for the shop. They work perfect . Couldn't be happier with that set up . I have around 100ft of 3/4 pex left over if you want it .


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## John D (Jan 29, 2010)

scag52 said:


> I use the shaver hot water coils. One for the house and the other for the shop. They work perfect . Couldn't be happier with that set up . I have around 100ft of 3/4 pex left over if you want it .



thanks for the offer..it costs more to ship than its worth,I need 2 lengths 110 ft each.......so ill buy a 300 ft coil...


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 29, 2010)

scag52 said:


> I figured from all the reading i've done on them i better get one so i bought 2 on ebay for around 100 bucks. My hot water cover is sealed good and i really dont want to take it off . It had really sloppy holes cut into it around the top corners . I filled them up with silicone. I was wondering if i could drop the copper dry well in there . What do you think.?



I drilled a hole in the top of my water jacket. It is on the left side of the water coil cover plate about 12" back.

I got piece of 1/4" copper tube with a cap soldered on one end and a 1/4 x 3/8 coupler on the other. Insert your probe down the tube and insert the tube in the hole. (the 1/4 x 3/8 coupler keeps it from falling through the hole) I then sealed it with silicone.


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 29, 2010)

John D said:


> How are you getting away with 150-145 temp settings? I'd save a ton of wood if i could run mine that cool....I need 180 to get decent recovery times on the zones....180 outside is 170 inside with a zone on,160 with 2 zones,and 155 with 3....the DHW zone will not satisfy at all it will,it run non stop if the heat is on.....if I hooked up the coil in the shaver,I may be able to lower it a little,but still have a 2 family,so I cannot priority a zone.....i need multiple zones to heat simutaneously,and DHW at the same time...Ive considered running pex to the DHW,and using it.I have an empty 4" drain pipe in the ground for that.I also have some scrap sections of 1"black poly pipe.I was thinking about running the 3/4" inside the 1" and pulling them thru,but there would be zero insulation,just the 1" to keep any water off the 3/4",thats whats keeping me from using it..With my water temps at 180 on 185 off,I get great performance,and good hot water recovery.Not as good as when the oil is used,but acceptable.



I have a 20" x 20" water/air HX in my plenum. Right after the water exits that HX it goes into a 10 plate water/water HX, and then goes back out to the OWB. I have my DHW hooked up to the coil in the water jacket. Its hokked up to a 80 gal. hot water tank.

The 10 plate water/water HX is hooked up to a pump. It circulates water through my self installed radiant floor system.

I admit I pretty much winged it on my radiant floor set up. I have a mixing valve, pressure tank, air eliminator, two 20ft. home made manifolds with 5 runs of 160ft. of 1/2" pex between floor joists covered with foiled bubble insulation. This heats a 24' x 30' great room with 18ft cathedral cieling on on half and a loft on the other half.

Anyway, it all works great running water temp at 150*. I usually fill the OWB 2 times a day unless temps are in the 20s or below I will fill 3 times a day.


Lots of times, on cold days, I throw wood in even when there is still enough wood to last a few more hours. I just rake the coals forward and throw a few more pieces in, if I'm out and about or going away for a while.


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## scag52 (Jan 30, 2010)

I've also been running 150* . with the stock stat. I have 2 temp gauges that read the same.


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## scag52 (Jan 30, 2010)

Windwalker7 said:


> I drilled a hole in the top of my water jacket. It is on the left side of the water coil cover plate about 12" back.
> 
> I got piece of 1/4" copper tube with a cap soldered on one end and a 1/4 x 3/8 coupler on the other. Insert your probe down the tube and insert the tube in the hole. (the 1/4 x 3/8 coupler keeps it from falling through the hole) I then sealed it with silicone.



Did you drill into the water jacket while using the stove. Metal shavings in the water ?


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## smus (Jan 30, 2010)

When I drilled mine, I placed one of those magnetic parts retrievers right next to the spot where I drilled. I used a little cutting oil to keep the shavings together after they were cut, then when I was done, I drug the magnet across the top of the drill hole without lifting too much to pull the shavings away and out. I don't know if it pulled all from the inside or not but, I did have a nice glob of metal shavings clinging to the magnet.


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 30, 2010)

I had the stove shut down for a few days during a warm spell.

I did have some concern about metal shavings but figured they would settle to the bottom.

Since I am drawing water from near the top of the water jacket, I'm hoping there won't be a problem. I installed the Ranco in late winter last year. So far, so good.

That magnet idea sounds like it would work.


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## scag52 (Jan 30, 2010)

I know you can also use grease on the upper part of the drill bit to collect the shavings. The concern i have is, I was planning on drawing water from the top and returning at the bottom but at the last minute i saw where shaver recomends to reverse this and you will end up with a better set up . So i did this their way and i already had a peice of silicone get stuck in one of my pumps. I have a stainer in front of the HX in the house and shop but couldn't put it right before the pump like i would have liked to. 

I'm afraid of shavings running through the pump. Also even if i do go ahead and drill ,being i'm returning water on both sides at the top do you think it will effect the temp of the ranco dry well ?


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 30, 2010)

It may effect the temp a little but I wouldn't worry about that.

The 1/4" copper tube of my dry well is 14" long. You could make yours longer. I think the probe wire is 5 feet long, if I remember correctly. You can get a temp reading from deeper in the water jacket, if you want.

You said you had holes on your cover plate or something??? Maybe use one of those for the dry well location instead of drilling.

I heard of Shaver's reccommendation of switching the in/out water flow. I was worried about the pump sucking up sediment. I think a lot of people had problems with boil overs. and they said that switching the flows would fix that.

I run my pump 24/7. The Shaver idea of switching the pump on, only when calling for heat, I believe contributes to the boil over problem. Also running it at the higher temp settings.


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## Windwalker7 (Jan 30, 2010)

I wonder if you could have somebody hold the nozzle of a Shop-Vac beside the hole as you're drilling?


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## scag52 (Jan 31, 2010)

I guess I'll try using the holes on the side of the dhw cover.I have two coils and when they made the cover it had a large gap on each corner (Door side). I have temp probes stuck in there now . I wish i would have left the supplys at the top .I feel its going to cause problems later. Thanks for the help. Russ


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## headleyj (Feb 1, 2010)

when i drilled my hole for the Ranco drywell, my DHW plate wasn't selaed off yet - I just held a large plastic cup under where the hole was while I was drilling.


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## J.Gordon (Feb 1, 2010)

Windwalker7 said:


> I might as well chime in!
> 
> Overall, it is easy to admit that Shaver units aren't up to par with CB. Central Boiler units are very well made and have a great reputation.
> 
> ...



I agree, If you have money to spare then I would go with a gasifier unit for efficiency. I couldn't afford the extra money for the higher priced OWB's and went with the 165 Shaver. 

Yes they need a lot of modifying that you will have to do yourself, but it saved me from wasting that money on propane. 

I have about $6000.00 in my total install for my system. 

When I move I will look at other options but will probably build my own OWB instead of buying.

I want to make a multi-fuel OWB, that can handle square hay bales,cats,opossums you name it. LOL


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## dds112557 (Feb 4, 2010)

I noticed that Shaver is claiming their 165 stove qualifies for the 30% tax credit. I thought only gasifiers qualified.

http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceboiler.com/


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## scag52 (Feb 4, 2010)

I was just talking to them about this. The 165 passed and the 250 is going to quailify also. There not sure about the bigger stoves yet. I have the 290 so I'm hoping they get it certified too.


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## Cylon67 (Feb 7, 2010)

*Pics?*

Any chance you took a picture of this? Would like to see more pics on here of the mods you guys are making. I am a man, and therefore more visually stimulated!!


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## ShaverFurnace (Mar 30, 2010)

scag52 said:


> I was just talking to them about this. The 165 passed and the 250 is going to quailify also. There not sure about the bigger stoves yet. I have the 290 so I'm hoping they get it certified too.



Great news! 

Shaver Furnace is proud to announce that the Shaver Pro Series 165, 250, 2900 and 340 models have ALL been tested and certified to be high efficient; meaning 75% efficient or better and this allows us to offer you a certificate to get the $1500 Federal Tax Credit (or up to 30% of the purchase price including installation)!

This also means that you will use less wood than with most manufacturer's outdoor wood furnaces. Most wood furnaces are only around 65% efficient.

That makes the net cost for the 165, after the Federal Tax rebate, only $3177!

See outdoor-wood-furnace-boiler.com/1500-tax-credit.htm

We're also including the Cold Weather Package NOW at NO CHARGE!

You can also get the 1/2" firebox upgrade at no charge now too!

While ours isn't a true gasification furnace, our design (chimney dropping down in the firebox creating that huge secondary burn chamber along with the air (oxygen) blowing in from the bottom), allows us to capture the gases and burn them off, almost as well as a more complex and more expensive gasification furnace. There is a LOT of energy in the gases!

Best regards,

Ben


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## ShaverFurnace (Mar 30, 2010)

J.Gordon said:


> ...I couldn't afford the extra money for the higher priced OWB's and went with the 165 Shaver.
> 
> Yes they need a lot of modifying that you will have to do yourself, but it saved me from wasting that money on propane.
> 
> ...



We listened to what everyone had to say on here and aftermarket modifications aren't necessary anymore!

Shavers now have the same digital thermostat if you want it, as well as the solenoid activated damper.

All furnaces have insulation under the stove as well as insulation in the door.

For those that still want the simplicity, they can have their furnace without the extras.

BTW, you should never burn hay/straw because of the chlorine produced when burning, which will fast destroy at least the chimney.

Best regards,

Ben


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## John D (Mar 30, 2010)

ShaverFurnace said:


> We listened to what everyone had to say on here and aftermarket modifications aren't necessary anymore!
> 
> Shavers now have the same digital thermostat if you want it, as well as the solenoid activated damper.
> 
> ...



Im glad to see the changes made to the current units.To myself,this is a big step forward.Now if you could work on quality control ,and fit and finish,you'd have it all.....


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## ShaverFurnace (Mar 30, 2010)

*Changes made recently*



John D said:


> Im glad to see the changes made to the current units.To myself,this is a big step forward.Now if you could work on quality control ,and fit and finish,you'd have it all.....



Hi John,

Since you received your furnace, we are having the metal precut with a plasma cutter and we are doing that in-house as well on the smaller parts.

All of the tin is cut tighter and we no longer use silicone. We now use butyl tape for a nice neat appearance.

We have grommets around the piping and hinges now too!

We also redesigned the cover for the hot water coil to make it simpler and easier to seal for the consumer and now the water level is higher. This will protect the water jacket better because now the chemicals can now reach all corners and impart the oxygen barrier on the metal, even on the top and corners. We spray the inside of the water jackets on top too.

We changed the return lines, making them feed further into the water jacket so that water flow more around the front, in cases where high volume or multiple pumps are used.

Bob is trying to contact you in regards to the 5-year Rust Blocker (rust protector), for your furnace.

Best regards,

Ben


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## ngzcaz (Mar 30, 2010)

ShaverFurnace said:


> Great news!
> 
> Shaver Furnace is proud to announce that the Shaver Pro Series 165, 250, 2900 and 340 models have ALL been tested and certified to be high efficient; meaning 75% efficient or better and this allows us to offer you a certificate to get the $1500 Federal Tax Credit (or up to 30% of the purchase price including installation)!
> 
> ...




Glad to hear it. However, I, for one, would like to know if it was tested with the new damper or the old one. Reason I asked is that those who still have the old one probably aren't getting that efficiency with the slider with the holes in it. It would depend how open the slide was. Thats one of the major problems with the old units. I modified mine with a butterfly type opening which was equal in sq in to the old slide all the way open. Much faster heat gain and no more creosote in the chimney. Plus when the flap closes, it seals much better than having the holes open to draw air that you now don't want in the unit.
One more thing, I continue to have door sealing problems with the silicone sealer. Has Shaver retained this setup ? Also, unless you relocated the outside overflow drain, I don't under stand how the water level would be higher since it flows out the lowest point. Why the water jacket slide had(s) the angle shape is beyond me, should have been a straight piece allowing water almost to the top of the unit obviously helping to control the rust situation. I would strongly suggest to any future buyer that they get the digital thermostat and damper. The thermostat remains the weakest point of my unit. Its acceptable since I modified it somewhat but far from what I'd like. Not like its a surprise, but the steel simply held the heat too long before the stat actually knew it was supposided to kick on. 

:monkey:


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## headleyj (Apr 5, 2010)

sidenote - time to turn the stove off so I decided to experiment:

I turned the circ pump off. Temp was at 140°F. 2 days later temp was at 207°F. Circ pump was never kicked on. Rayco stat set to 140/145.


- My assessment is the combined leakage through the fill door, ash door and damper over the fan inlet produced enough draft to promote coals/ maintain small fire and increase temp.

Future improvements:
- Seal inlet blower properly (I have the screw/ choke down flappy thing)
- Redo seal on fill door (lasted 1 year - pathetic)
- Cycle circ pump with house stat instead of circ pump on 24/7.
- Possibly a damper on chimney that opens 100% when blower kicks in and closes X% when blower kicks off.


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