# Are These Logger's Boots Defective?



## Canyon Angler (Jul 12, 2018)

Hey, all,

I just bought a pair of Carolina Boots #821 which I believe is also sold by Madsens as their "Value Logger."

Tried them on and they fit fine and everything, but looking them over, I noticed that the string used to sew the outsole to the insole at the toe is exposed between the lugs of the outsole. The cord basically "bridges" the gaps between the lugs in several places. See below:






















My concern is that when these "strings" wear through and break – and I don't think it will take long – then the outsole will no longer be sewn to the insole...and I've seen what happens when you rely only on glue alone. You start tripping over your own boot sole when it folds back under your heel.

Not sure what stitch is used to attach the outsoles on these boots, but I've used a jerk needle to sew outsoles back onto boots when the glue has failed, and I know that if any of _those_ strings broke, then the whole "seam" would pretty quickly come undone.

What do you boys think? Would you consider this Vietnamese sewing job to be defective? Would you return the boots and ask for a pair that were sewn "correctly," assuming these aren't? (I can't afford Wescos/Red Wings/Chippewas/etc.)

Thanks for any opinions...


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## northmanlogging (Jul 12, 2018)

The sting is used in manufacture, holds the sole tight until the rubber vulcanizes and sticks firm to the inner sole. After the glue process the string is left in, many boots are made like this

Carolina's are good boots if you get the usa versions, the cheapese ones are alright though.

Maddens i think are running whites/hawthorn or hoffman, all good boots


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 12, 2018)

Thanks Northmanlogging. 

So have you seen boots that were sewn this way? (I never normally buy lug soles so I'm not used to seeing how they're made. For all I know, they're all stitched this way.)


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## lfnh (Jul 12, 2018)

Can't speak for Carolina, maybe call customer service. 
Whites and Redwings that I've had a long time are screwed down. Easy rebuild. Never had any trouble. Made here back then. Can't speak for either being made now.


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## Kfd518 (Jul 12, 2018)

Typical lug sole construction he is right in that the stitching is only a locating aid. 
Same with leather soles the stitching all the way around the sole will wear plum off but it’s the glue holding everything together.


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## Kfd518 (Jul 12, 2018)

Resolved wolverines in left wreck factory sole
On right.


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 12, 2018)

Thanks, guys. So maybe I'm worrying about nothing. I like the boots otherwise overall.


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## Little Al (Jul 13, 2018)

Of the last several pairs of Italian manufactured boots only one pair were stitched the others were screwed


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 13, 2018)

Little Al said:


> Of the last several pairs of Italian manufactured boots only one pair were stitched the others were screwed



I've seen boots like that, and always wondered what the screws threaded _into_. It's surprising to me that the threads _hold_ – unless, as Northman and KFD said, it's all just for indexing and temporary holding until the glue sets up, and then the screws or stitches are just reinforcement.

Still, it seems like you need something to stop the shear between outsole and insole when sole is bent – I suspect that's what makes the glue fail.

Side question -- Why do so many logging boots have such high heels? Do they help prevent the front of your foot from pivoting up in soft ground?


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## Kfd518 (Jul 13, 2018)

Heel helps support your arches better and forms your back posture better. Also Your heels are your brakes. If you slip in a higher heel it sets the brakes quicker.

High heels help with gaffs as well. You’ll notice the boot seems thick from sole to top of vamp. That’s is because the layers built in to support your Foot on gaffs.


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 13, 2018)

Thanks, KFD518. Yeah, one of the purposes of getting them was to eventually get gaffs. Plan also to use them without gaffs for trimming.



lfnh said:


> maybe call customer service.



I sent them pix but they were noncommittal and pleaded the 5th, as expected. CYA.
from their email:

"If you feel your boots may have a defect, you can return them for evaluation blah blah blah"


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## northmanlogging (Jul 13, 2018)

Own several pairs that are sewn on as such, and seen em screwed, and screwed and sewn, nailed and sewn, screwed nailed and sewn...

Anyway, the screw are fairly short and go into the very hard leather of the inner sole. Nails should go through and then get bet over inside clinching the sole together. If ya look close on the heel its likely nailed, the pull up the leather in sole and you should see the tops of the nails bent over like staples.

The block heels are largely for back support, a high arch (whites or nicks) supports the foot, the added benefit of gaffs locking into the heel is really more of a bonus though spur climbing in heeles boots is pretty dumb.


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## Kfd518 (Jul 13, 2018)

Reminds me of dual row lemonwood beg construction arches. Don’t see that much any more. Heel cups should always be nailed on then rubber heel cap applied.


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 13, 2018)

Thanks again, Northman and KFD518.

The plot thickens. After emailing the mfgr and getting a noncommittal reply, I emailed the retailer, whose email address looks suspiciously like the email address of the mfgr.
And the retailer replied:

_We do apologize and yes this does look like a defective issue. You may send these back to exchange..._

So now I'm not sure what to do. I already started wearing them to break them in, and you fellas suggest there's nothing wrong – so now I wonder whether I just have some rep at the retailer who says "The customer is always right..."

I think I might just cover the exposed cords with 3M 5200 Marine Adhesive Sealer (polyurethane-based caulk-type material that bonds so well that you'd need a chainsaw to remove it) and call it a day.

Northman, are you saying most spur climbers aren't using heeled boots? I got the feeling that most did. (But this is only from reading the Intardwebs rather than actually knowing a climber...) I was thinking that the big heel (and steel shank) would help, even when climbing without spurs, to keep your foot on the branch, or to keep the footloop on your foot when prusiking up the rope.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help.


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## Little Al (Jul 14, 2018)

A couple of the pairs Iv'e had the company also manufacture walking/climbing boots the various layers of the sole have either S Steel or Composite plate sandwiched between them helps with the rigidity of the boot & protects sharp objects being felt through the sole if stepped on


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## northmanlogging (Jul 14, 2018)

Nah, most spur climbers wear tall heels, but i've seen some real winners try it without.


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 19, 2018)

Well, I ended up exchanging them for some USA-made Carolina 10" Linesman's boots. You really need to read every word of manufacturer's descriptions nowadays. I liked the Loggers I originally bought, but the leather seemed kind of thin. Then I saw that only the _black_ version of that model was "full grain leather" ... and the brown ones were "Briar Pitstop leather" (whatever that is...probably Vietnamese water rat leather)... but I thought "Briar Pitstop Brown" only referred to the _color_ (since the price for brown and black versions was the same) not the actual leather. Live and learn.

The USA-made Carolina Linesman's boots are pretty nice. Much heavier leather (full grain) and with an actual Vibram sole. Time will tell.

Thanks again for all the replies.


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## KenJax Tree (Jul 19, 2018)

A guy at work just bought a pair of these Georgia boots for $175. They look exactly like my Danner Quarry


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 19, 2018)

Nice. The Carolina Linesman's were $200

I also like how a lot of those Carolina boots are EH rated, since I do welding and using AC tools on wet ground a fair amount. 

Always fun to get a good new pair of boots. I don't work in them, just hunt and dabble in the woods, so they last a long time and it's years before I buy another pair.

No financial connection to them, but shoeline.com seems like a decent outfit to deal with, or so far, FWIW.


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## birddogsrule (Jul 5, 2019)

My newest pair of Chippawa super loggers are 7 mons old and the boot and sole are already delaminating.Used to get about a yr to 18 mons out of a pair,quality has taken a shot


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