# Log splitter pump mounting question



## sdnomad (Jan 3, 2008)

Is it ok to mount hydraulic pump above reservoir tank? Has anyone out there built a splitter with the pump above the tank? I see a lot of retail log splitters with the motor and pump mounted above the tank. But I know they recommend the pump be at the same level or lower than tank. Would I need to have a closed system (no breather cap) in order to have the pump above the tank? And would you have to prime the pump some how?

Thanks everyone for your advice.
Doug

Here are photos showing where I would like to mount the motor and pump. The tank is the green thing the motor is sitting on.


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## barkies (Jan 3, 2008)

mine is above the tank by 3-4 inches and has worked fine for 5 years but ive always heard at or below oil level is best


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## mga (Jan 3, 2008)

mounting it below is kinda recommended to ensure that oil will always be in the pump. you never want to run a dry pump, but, as barkies stated, he's never had a problem. having the pump above the oil means it has to work over time to draw oil into it, especially when starting.

looks like a nice project you have there...keep posting pics!


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## sdnomad (Jan 3, 2008)

Will do. I'll take pics as I go along and post them when its done. 

I might end up mounting the motor and pump behind the tank, like in the pics below, so it can be below the oil level line. But if I do that, I can't reach the shut off switch where I would be standing and operating the splitter. Probably not a big deal. I'll just have to walk around the back of the splitter to shut it off. I have to mount the motor on the right side though, so the exhaust is not pointed toward the operator.














mga said:


> mounting it below is kinda recommended to ensure that oil will always be in the pump. you never want to run a dry pump, but, as barkies stated, he's never had a problem. having the pump above the oil means it has to work over time to draw oil into it, especially when starting.
> 
> looks like a nice project you have there...keep posting pics!


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## boostnut (Jan 3, 2008)

aside from getting the pump below the oil level, you have also positioned the pump/engine combo completely out of harms way by putting it behind the tank.


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## sdnomad (Jan 3, 2008)

I think you're right. Less chance of hitting it with the wood. I guess if I wanted, I could wire a cut off switch next to the operating area also, if it seems to be a problem.

I was also told it is best to mount the pump directly to the engine, instead of a stand alone pump mounting bracket that doesn't attach to the motor. Suppose to cause wear on bearings and seals of pump and motor. I have the stand alone pump bracket, but looks like I better get a pump to motor mounting bracket.



boostnut said:


> aside from getting the pump below the oil level, you have also positioned the pump/engine combo completely out of harms way by putting it behind the tank.


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## gtstang462002 (Jan 3, 2008)

sdnomad said:


> I think you're right. Less chance of hitting it with the wood. I guess if I wanted, I could wire a cut off switch next to the operating area also, if it seems to be a problem.
> 
> I was also told it is best to mount the pump directly to the engine, instead of a stand alone pump mounting bracket that doesn't attach to the motor. Suppose to cause wear on bearings and seals of pump and motor. I have the stand alone pump bracket, but looks like I better get a pump to motor mounting bracket.



I picked up the bracket, lovejoy equivelant couplers and spider for about 50 bucks from my local tractor supply. Made everything plug and play with no alignment issues.

Bobby


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## mga (Jan 3, 2008)

sdnomad said:


> Will do. I'll take pics as I go along and post them when its done.
> 
> I might end up mounting the motor and pump behind the tank, like in the pics below, so it can be below the oil level line. But if I do that, I can't reach the shut off switch where I would be standing and operating the splitter. Probably not a big deal. I'll just have to walk around the back of the splitter to shut it off. I have to mount the motor on the right side though, so the exhaust is not pointed toward the operator.
> 
> ...


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## computeruser (Jan 3, 2008)

I'd put it behind the tank, as pictured, BUT I would also make sure that it allows you to mount up the Tecumseh OEM quiet muffler, too. Those little crimped steel contraptions that are on there are noisy as can be. The quiet muffler that fits that series of engines is only $60 or so, and well worth putting on such a nice looking project as that. You, your neighbors, and your splitting helpers will thank you!!


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## triptester (Jan 3, 2008)

The motor and pump located behind the seems to be the preferred position.

Be careful to pre plan for your hose routing.


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## sdnomad (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm finding out that you DO have to think through which way the hoses will need to run. With the motor's drive shaft facing left of the beam and the control valve inlet on the right side of the beam, I will have to snake the line from the pump to the control valve around the underneath of the beam and up the right side. 

I'm also wondering, can you cast iron fittings such as 90 degree elbows and iron pipe, in place of brass fittings? What are all the options for fittings and lines?






triptester said:


> Be careful to pre plan for your hose routing.


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## gtstang462002 (Jan 3, 2008)

sdnomad said:


> I'm finding out that you DO have to think through which way the hoses will need to run. With the motor's drive shaft facing left of the beam and the control valve inlet on the right side of the beam, I will have to snake the line from the pump to the control valve around the underneath of the beam and up the right side.
> 
> I'm also wondering, can you cast iron fittings such as 90 degree elbows and iron pipe, in place of brass fittings? What are all the options for fittings and lines?



Northern tool has just about every fitting that you would need in their hydraulics section. If nothing else take thier part numbers to your local supplier to cross referance. Iron pipe is advised against due to its inability to withstand vibrations. It will last for a while then start to crack by the fittings... Tried that once before.


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## triptester (Jan 4, 2008)

All fittings that will be under pressure have to be hydraulic fittings. Only return lines and suction lines can use standard pipe fittings. Be careful when choosing the hydraulic fittings . I have found some that for 1/2" I.D. hose that only had a 5/16" orifice in them. These fittings cause heat build up and restrict flow.


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## cabinman (Jan 4, 2008)

*Flow*

FLOW is everybody,...Air, water, or oil,..make sure it FLOWS without restrictions,..spend a few extra bucks 2 improve the flow,. FILTERS hurt flow,..But, I think the suction side should have 1,..Unless,.. we are building a race pump,..And, also, a return filter,.. E,J,


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## cabinman (Jan 4, 2008)

*thinkin, filters*



cabinman said:


> FLOW is everybody,...Air, water, or oil,..make sure it FLOWS without restrictions,..spend a few extra bucks 2 improve the flow,. FILTERS hurt flow,..But, I think the suction side should have 1,..Unless,.. we are building a race pump,..And, also, a return filter,.. E,J,



Hydraulic, suction filters arent popular,most machines only use a return filter,. This is the Question,..WHY, Filter anyway,?..For me its to protect ,..the pump, valves, and the cylinder, or motor,..SO,...If u DONT filter the oil before it goes threw the pump, valve, cyl, or motor,..All the (####) you suck out of the tank goes threw the whole system, AND does what ever dammage it sees fit,..Like a tornado in a trailer park,. Maybe, Iam wrong, But the popular, engineers keep me guessing,.


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## triptester (Jan 4, 2008)

If you look at car engines the pump is located in the oil pan .The oil pickup only has a screen before the pump. The oil is filtered after it goes thru the pump and before it returns to the oil pan.

A filter on the suction side of the pump can restrict flow to the pump putting extra strain on the pump. Some hydraulic experts don't even recommend having a strainer in the suction line. Their theory is that if you start with a clean tank and oil the filter will keep it clean.


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## mga (Jan 4, 2008)

triptester said:


> If you look at car engines the pump is located in the oil pan .The oil pickup only has a screen before the pump. The oil is filtered after it goes thru the pump and before it returns to the oil pan.
> 
> A filter on the suction side of the pump can restrict flow to the pump putting extra strain on the pump. Some hydraulic experts don't even recommend having a strainer in the suction line. Their theory is that if you start with a clean tank and oil the filter will keep it clean.



heh...amen!

if you put a filter on the suction side, you're going to be sorry...not to mention probably soaked with hydraulic fluid. the screen is optional on the suction line, but if you do use one, you have to consider getting at it at some time in case it gets clogged. i never used one myself.

general rule: always filter the return line.

also, when designing your tank, the inlet line should drop to about 1" to the bottom of the tank. you should have a baffle in the tank as well.....AND your suction line should be at least 1" off the bottom of the tank so that it doesn't draw any particles that might be in there.

the baffle prevents turbulence inside the tank and having the return line drop to the bottom prevents bubbles.


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## drmiller100 (Jan 4, 2008)

the only thing harder on a pump then metal filings is cavitation.

cavitation is caused by restriction in the suction line or having the pump too high from the bottom of the tank.

filter on the suction line is a very bad thing. mgiht work just fine in the summer until one day you get a leak and the tank level drops a little or you run it in the winter nad the oil thickens.


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## mga (Jan 4, 2008)

drmiller100 said:


> the only thing harder on a pump then metal filings is cavitation.
> 
> cavitation is caused by restriction in the suction line or having the pump too high from the bottom of the tank.
> 
> filter on the suction line is a very bad thing. mgiht work just fine in the summer until one day you get a leak and the tank level drops a little or you run it in the winter nad the oil thickens.



actually, filters won't work on the suction side anyways. the filters you buy for splitters have a relief valve in them...in case they get clogged...to by-pass the filter. on the suction side, the amount of suction would always keep that valve open....rendering the filter completely useless. 

once again....people shouldn't even consider a filter on the suction side...ever.


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## paladin (Jan 4, 2008)

The pump is mounted 4-6 inches above the oil level in the tank and has worked that way for 3yrs. I guess we will see if it cooks the pump after awhile. My filter is mounted on the return side also.


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## triptester (Jan 4, 2008)

A pump mounted above the oil level will work but is not the prefered location.


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## ray benson (Jan 4, 2008)

We put my 2 stage Haldex pump on in 1987.The bottom of the pump is about 4 or 5 inches above the oil level. Did it that way so the pump could be removed without making a mess.But never had to remove it. I may change it so the pump is below the oil level if the motor and pump ever goes bad.


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## triptester (Jan 4, 2008)

I put a full flow valve on the suction outlet so I could experiment with different pumps with out draining the tank.


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## sdnomad (Jan 4, 2008)

MGA, I don't quite understand what you are saying with the inlet line dropping 1" to the bottom of the tank. Are you saying the inlet should be mounted to the top of the tank and a pipe inside the inlet should run to about 1" off the bottom of the tank, instead of just dumping the return fluid in the top of the tank? Sounds like a good idea.

And what is the baffle? Is that a plate inside the center of the tank with a couple of large holes in it? What kind of difference does the baffle make? 

Also, I have another question. I have the wheels on and the beam mounted and the top of the beam (splitting bed) is 29" from the ground. Is that too tall?

Thanks,
Doug





















mga said:


> heh...amen!
> 
> also, when designing your tank, the inlet line should drop to about 1" to the bottom of the tank. you should have a baffle in the tank as well.....AND your suction line should be at least 1" off the bottom of the tank so that it doesn't draw any particles that might be in there.
> 
> the baffle prevents turbulence inside the tank and having the return line drop to the bottom prevents bubbles.


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## blackdoggy (Jan 4, 2008)

I see a few very slight problems you might have, 1.Your push plate looks a little thin 2. You might want to move your valve to one side or the other so it is not on top of the cylinder my friends splitter is like this and it developed a crack in the little pipe after he hit it with a log 3. Your wedge wings might be over kill 4. You might want to level off your cylinder to prevent your rod from bending. I am far from an expert but this is a few problems I know about that has happened to other people take my advice with a grain of sand I am not an expert.


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## mga (Jan 4, 2008)

> MGA, I don't quite understand what you are saying with the inlet line dropping 1" to the bottom of the tank. Are you saying the inlet should be mounted to the top of the tank and a pipe inside the inlet should run to about 1" off the bottom of the tank, instead of just dumping the return fluid in the top of the tank? Sounds like a good idea.
> 
> And what is the baffle? Is that a plate inside the center of the tank with a couple of large holes in it? What kind of difference does the baffle make?
> 
> ...


Doug

that's exactly what i'm saying. let the return pipe drop inside the tank so that it ends about 1" off the bottom. do NOT just allow the fluid to drop in the tank.

yes, the baffle should be about 3/4 of the height of your tank and you can either cut the bottom corners out about 1" each or put some large holes in it. the baffle will prevent turbulence. you want the oil to pass over the top of the baffle. the holes in the corners are in case the oil runs low. using a baffle is a good idea. if you can still do it put at least one in there. from the size of your tank you can put two of them in there. the baffle also helps keep air bubbles and debris away from the suction line.

as for the height of your beam....stand next to the machine as if you are going to split wood. you should not be bent over or hunched over but standing normal....your back will thank you after a couple of hours! make it to a height that suits you...there is no standard for that. it's your machine man, make it _yours_.

the thing looks great!! keep the photos coming so we can see the progress.


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## sdnomad (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for your help. I made need to beef up the push plate, but will see. Everything is pretty much fit together loosely right now. The ram is just laying on the beam. Thats why its at an angle. I'm just trying to figure our how everything is going to be routed before I start bolting and welding everything in place.





blackdoggy said:


> I see a few very slight problems you might have, 1.Your push plate looks a little thin 2. You might want to move your valve to one side or the other so it is not on top of the cylinder my friends splitter is like this and it developed a crack in the little pipe after he hit it with a log 3. Your wedge wings might be over kill 4. You might want to level off your cylinder to prevent your rod from bending. I am far from an expert but this is a few problems I know about that has happened to other people take my advice with a grain of sand I am not an expert.


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## drmiller100 (Jan 4, 2008)

for sure the pump can be higher then the oil level.

and for sure you can use a 1 inch suction line if your pump is 4 feet lower then your tank.

but if you scrimp on the suction line, then raise the tank.

like the man said, have the return line enter into the tank low, but not pointed at the suction line. the goal is make the oil swirl or something so the air bubbles rise to the top, and don't just get sucked down instantly into the suction line.


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## blackdoggy (Jan 4, 2008)

I just got done cutting some computer cases up that had some nice sheets that would make good baffles. I saved them and I am hoping to either use a few of them for my tank or sell them for $1.00 or less lol.


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## mga (Jan 5, 2008)

sdnomad said:


> Thanks for your help. I made need to beef up the push plate, but will see. Everything is pretty much fit together loosely right now. The ram is just laying on the beam. Thats why its at an angle. I'm just trying to figure our how everything is going to be routed before I start bolting and welding everything in place.



i sent you a PM........


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## cabinman (Jan 5, 2008)

mga said:


> actually, filters won't work on the suction side anyways. the filters you buy for splitters have a relief valve in them...in case they get clogged...to by-pass the filter. on the suction side, the amount of suction would always keep that valve open....rendering the filter completely useless.
> 
> once again....people shouldn't even consider a filter on the suction side...ever.



Ok, I think I should have used the words (suction strainer) instead of filter, If you google hydraulic suction strainer, you will find dozens of companys who make them, If you are a welder you have noticed the little weld bb:s on the table after finishing a project, Iam investing a lot of money and time in my power unit and dont want it munchin on weld matter or any other foreign matter, The filter cost about 30 bucks with shiping, Ive heard some pros and cons to using a suction filter before, I understand the cavitation issue and so do the filter companys, thats why they have so many micron choices, If you buy a filter thats to fine for the temps or use oil thats to thick you will have cavitation issues,.I spec my filters with at least 25% more flow than pump specs, For cold weather 10 w oil, and 10 micron filter,. If you use it in the summer months use 10/30w, If its REAL cold and you are running the 10/30w you might run a oil heater,on the filtered systems, if its in the COLD belt, once you fire it up, it will stay warm and your good to go,.. A HUGE plus for the hard to start rope pull engines, I use the in tank heater, But a quick/cheep add on heater can be made with a couple of the elactric tape heaters they make to wrap around water pipes to keep from freezing, wrap em tight, duct tape them down tight, and throw an old coat over it , and for the guys having troble starting the little pull ropers you are going to love it, pull it over slow to get the warm oil to the pump, when the warm oil gets threw the pump, It will pull and start much easier,.. OH YEA,.. Wrap the heat tape around the tank,..not the hoses, and be sure its tight,. NO,. air gaps for good results,..


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## cabinman (Jan 5, 2008)

blackdoggy said:


> This is from my FLUID POWER CERTIFIED engineer there is no need for a suction side filter unless you want to cavitate the pump. Your best bet is to CLEAN the tank before you start adding fluid and use a return line filter and a suction strainer and plenty of baffling in your tank. The majority of trash that enters a tank comes from the cylinder and the filler/breather so if you filter both when you start with a clean tank you will be all set.
> And for all of you wondering how trash can come in through a cylinder it is very simple a cylinder gathers crud on the rod and the rod is mostly cleaned as it comes in but tinny particles can get past the wiper and seals and enter the system.



Blackdoggy, Re read my last post,. maybe the first line twice,..I staited maybe I should have typed strainer instead of filter, they are the SAME,....Its like saying the engine burned out in my dish washer, or I need a new engine for my clothes dryer, What do you put motor oil in,. engines only,......so why do they call it motor oil, If it runs on electricty its called a motor, If it runs on fossel fuel we call it an engine, or a motor, visualize a picture of a 5hp gas engine, ok, now, a picture of a 5hp elec motor, ok Tell me what the have in common,. Remember,... they are both called MOTORS, So you should have a lot of simularties to tell about


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## cabinman (Jan 5, 2008)

blackdoggy said:


> A strainer and filter are similar but not quite the same. Strainer a: a device (as a sieve) to retain solid pieces while a liquid passes through. Filter a: a porous article or mass (as of paper or sand) through which a gas or liquid is passed to separate out matter in suspension. Not to mention totally different mounting methods.



GREAT RESPONSE,... I printed it out, gona frame it tommorow, and hang on wall in me offase,... LOLOL


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## sdnomad (Jan 9, 2008)

*Can you use black pipe for hydraulic fittings?*

I'll start by saying I know you don't want to use black pipe on the high pressure side of the hydraulics. But is it ok to use black pipe or galvanized fittings on the lines going to and from the fluid reservoir tank?
Thanks for everyones help.

Also here are some more pics showing how things are coming along.


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## Log Splitter (Jan 9, 2008)

It's looking real good, Sdnomad. Keep the pics coming!

I'd be embarrassed to show the one I built here on AS.


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## Mike Van (Jan 9, 2008)

sdnomad, lookin' good, you're almost there - I think your valve is backwards? Usually, you push the handle forward to split, then pull it back to retract - If it's a detent valve, it kinks out when the ram comes all the way back. Just an opinion, it's your splitter, you can mount it anyway you want -


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## triptester (Jan 9, 2008)

sdnomad,
Yes black pipe is OK for non high pressure piping. The valve is positioned correctly it just appears wrong because the valve is upside down.

The project is looking good.


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## cabinman (Jan 9, 2008)

*Nice*

Vary clean craftsmanship, How big is the fitting in the bottom of the tank,?. looks like you streched tha beam for all shes worth, Id like to see a truss shaped web on the wedge end, Nice work keep the pics coming , and hopefully a cost annyleses when you are at the spliting stage, Iam a build it, dont buy it, voter,. Oh yea,.... hows the tounge weight, manuverability,? sure looks like a user friendly splitter, Con grats,...


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## sdnomad (Jan 9, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your comments. Cabinman, the fitting at the bottom of the tank is 2 1/4" wide. I don't know what that translates to as far as pipe size. It is for a screened strainer on the suction side. The strainer was longer than my tank was wide, thats why I had to build that boxed out area onto the tank. I don't know what a truss shaped web is. Is it to make the beam more rigid? I've seen where some weld plates at 45 degree angles between the top and bottom plate of the i-beam. Is that what you are speaking of? I got lucky with all my fittings and hoses. I went to the scrap yard today and they had a crane there with all sorts of hoses and fittings. Picked up a dozen 1/2 and 3/4 fittings and a few hoses for $2.00. I was looking at having to pay $5 to $8 per fitting locally. I don't see how anyone could build one of these without the advantage of a scrap yard. I also bought the axle, hubs, spindles, wheels, and tires at the scrap yard off a small old boat trailer. Cost me $5. Also picked up the iron for the splitter from the scrap yard. It would cost you more to build one if you had to buy all new parts than if you just went and bought a new splitter.

And Triptester is correct. The valve is upside down and does function correctly that way, but I have decide to build a bracket to mount the valve right side up. 

Also thought I would mention, the end plates on the tank are larger than the tank in order to bolt fenders on, if I decide to install fenders down the road.

I also need advice on different methods on how to rinse the tank out good prior to fluid. Hindsight, I should have left one tank end off until all cutting was done on the tank. I did place a magnet from a microwave inside the suction port of the tank where I could remove it and clean it when needed. 



cabinman said:


> Vary clean craftsmanship, How big is the fitting in the bottom of the tank,?. looks like you streched tha beam for all shes worth, Id like to see a truss shaped web on the wedge end, Nice work keep the pics coming , and hopefully a cost annyleses when you are at the spliting stage, Iam a build it, dont buy it, voter,. Oh yea,.... hows the tounge weight, manuverability,? sure looks like a user friendly splitter, Con grats,...


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## Hedge (Jan 9, 2008)

Nice Splitter looks like you took time to think it through very well. Nice job on your shopping in the salvage yard, definitely saves a lot of money.. Have fun splitting wood...:rockn:


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## cabinman (Jan 9, 2008)

*web design*

Take a clothes hanger, and place it vertically at the end of the beam,. the high point ,..where the hook is, is right at the top of the beam, this is a sonerial,.. not ment to be an exact measurement,.The point is,.. this truss shaped web welded to the beam/wedge will help keep the wedge from bending,. Take a square and see if the wedge is 90% from the beam,.The,.neakid eye, my, neaked eye says, its tilted back a little already,.. dont let it bend,..the rounds will ride up on the wedge,. the web thickness should be 1/4..3/8 thick, I wish I could do the cad drawing thing to make it simplier, Sorry,..


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## cabinman (Jan 9, 2008)

*Strainer/filter*



sdnomad said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. Cabinman, the fitting at the bottom of the tank is 2 1/4" wide. I don't know what that translates to as far as pipe size. It is for a screened strainer on the suction side. The strainer was longer than my tank was wide, thats why I had to build that boxed out area onto the tank. I don't know what a truss shaped web is. Is it to make the beam more rigid? I've seen where some weld plates at 45 degree angles between the top and bottom plate of the i-beam. Is that what you are speaking of? I got lucky with all my fittings and hoses. I went to the scrap yard today and they had a crane there with all sorts of hoses and fittings. Picked up a dozen 1/2 and 3/4 fittings and a few hoses for $2.00. I was looking at having to pay $5 to $8 per fitting locally. I don't see how anyone could build one of these without the advantage of a scrap yard. I also bought the axle, hubs, spindles, wheels, and tires at the scrap yard off a small old boat trailer. Cost me $5. Also picked up the iron for the splitter from the scrap yard. It would cost you more to build one if you had to buy all new parts than if you just went and bought a new splitter.
> 
> And Triptester is correct. The valve is upside down and does function correctly that way, but I have decide to build a bracket to mount the valve right side up.
> 
> ...


 Iam glad you did the home work on the size of the strainer/filter, I think you will be glad you are filtering the oil before it gets to your pump,


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## cabinman (Jan 9, 2008)

*Boxed beam*



sdnomad said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. Cabinman, the fitting at the bottom of the tank is 2 1/4" wide. I don't know what that translates to as far as pipe size. It is for a screened strainer on the suction side. The strainer was longer than my tank was wide, thats why I had to build that boxed out area onto the tank. I don't know what a truss shaped web is. Is it to make the beam more rigid? I've seen where some weld plates at 45 degree angles between the top and bottom plate of the i-beam. Is that what you are speaking of? I got lucky with all my fittings and hoses. I went to the scrap yard today and they had a crane there with all sorts of hoses and fittings. Picked up a dozen 1/2 and 3/4 fittings and a few hoses for $2.00. I was looking at having to pay $5 to $8 per fitting locally. I don't see how anyone could build one of these without the advantage of a scrap yard. I also bought the axle, hubs, spindles, wheels, and tires at the scrap yard off a small old boat trailer. Cost me $5. Also picked up the iron for the splitter from the scrap yard. It would cost you more to build one if you had to buy all new parts than if you just went and bought a new splitter.
> 
> And Triptester is correct. The valve is upside down and does function correctly that way, but I have decide to build a bracket to mount the valve right side up.
> 
> ...


Also you might want to box the ends of the beam, (both ends) this will keep the beam from twisting, Boxing the beam is, welding a web on each side of the flange, verticle members,..an I beam is 2 horziontal flanges with a web in the middle,..A boxed beam has 3 verticle webs, the one is standard and the other two added are at the out side of the flanges, giving you 3 verticle members and 2 horziointal members,, make them as long as possable , especially on the wedge end, they have to be no longer than the stroke length of the pusher,plate about the lerngth of the wedge,..


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## cabinman (Jan 10, 2008)

*magnets,..... SCARRY MAGNETS*



sdnomad said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. Cabinman, the fitting at the bottom of the tank is 2 1/4" wide. I don't know what that translates to as far as pipe size. It is for a screened strainer on the suction side. The strainer was longer than my tank was wide, thats why I had to build that boxed out area onto the tank. I don't know what a truss shaped web is. Is it to make the beam more rigid? I've seen where some weld plates at 45 degree angles between the top and bottom plate of the i-beam. Is that what you are speaking of? I got lucky with all my fittings and hoses. I went to the scrap yard today and they had a crane there with all sorts of hoses and fittings. Picked up a dozen 1/2 and 3/4 fittings and a few hoses for $2.00. I was looking at having to pay $5 to $8 per fitting locally. I don't see how anyone could build one of these without the advantage of a scrap yard. I also bought the axle, hubs, spindles, wheels, and tires at the scrap yard off a small old boat trailer. Cost me $5. Also picked up the iron for the splitter from the scrap yard. It would cost you more to build one if you had to buy all new parts than if you just went and bought a new splitter.
> 
> And Triptester is correct. The valve is upside down and does function correctly that way, but I have decide to build a bracket to mount the valve right side up.
> 
> ...


 THE MAGNETS YOU WANT are out of your obslete computer hard drives,.,. these magnets are so strong, you wont want to play with them,..Warning,..you dont

want to get a finger, between them,..They bit like a Puppy on steriods, Dont F$&k around with these, MAGS, NO Kidding,.. OIL tanks, Allways use a filter, LOLOL,... Rinse it the best you can blow it out, and add the oil as quick as you can to prevent rust, Shake, shake, shake it all around, every inch must be coated, or its rusts,...


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## mga (Jan 10, 2008)

> THE MAGNETS YOU WANT are out of your obslete computer hard drives,.,. these magnets are so strong, you wont want to play with them,..Warning,..you dont
> 
> want to get a finger, between them,..They bit like a Puppy on steriods, Dont F$&k around with these, MAGS, NO Kidding,.. OIL tanks, Allways use a filter, LOLOL,... Rinse it the best you can blow it out, and add the oil as quick as you can to prevent rust, Shake, shake, shake it all around, every inch must be coated, or its rusts,...



true, they are strong for little magnets, but they're only good on one side.

i'm at a loss as to why anyone would even consider magnets. if you have a filter, and you design your tank right, with the suction side off the bottom at least an inch, you'll be fine without the added options.


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## sdnomad (Jan 10, 2008)

I understand your concern about the wedge bending forward from the force of the ram and I agree it is something I need to shore up, but I don't understand what you are describing to keep it from happening. Don't know what the hook or sonerial is??? Are you saying I need to weld an i-beam vertically along the backside of the wedge, from the top of the wedge to the bottom of the main i-beam?






cabinman said:


> Take a clothes hanger, and place it vertically at the end of the beam,. the high point ,..where the hook is, is right at the top of the beam, this is a sonerial,.. not ment to be an exact measurement,.The point is,.. this truss shaped web welded to the beam/wedge will help keep the wedge from bending,. Take a square and see if the wedge is 90% from the beam,.The,.neakid eye, my, neaked eye says, its tilted back a little already,.. dont let it bend,..the rounds will ride up on the wedge,. the web thickness should be 1/4..3/8 thick, I wish I could do the cad drawing thing to make it simplier, Sorry,..


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## mga (Jan 10, 2008)

hey man....if you buy a decent wedge (northern tool has some good grade steel ones) and weld it properly to your beam, you should not have any problems with the wedge bending anything....unless you have a skimpy beam.


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## blackdoggy (Jan 10, 2008)

mga said:


> true, they are strong for little magnets, but they're only good on one side.
> 
> i'm at a loss as to why anyone would even consider magnets. if you have a filter, and you design your tank right, with the suction side off the bottom at least an inch, you'll be fine without the added options.


The reason you consider magnets is because they will grab any ferrous crap and hold it until you take it out and clean it off. Also if you have larger chunks that you some how forgot to clean out of your tank it will grab them so your lines don't get clogged. 
P.S. Hard drive magnets are magnetic on both sides all you need to do is remove the steel backer plate with a wood chisel (watch your finger when you do this).


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## cabinman (Jan 10, 2008)

*Web dssign*



sdnomad said:


> I understand your concern about the wedge bending forward from the force of the ram and I agree it is something I need to shore up, but I don't understand what you are describing to keep it from happening. Don't know what the hook or sonerial is??? Are you saying I need to weld an i-beam vertically along the backside of the wedge, from the top of the wedge to the bottom of the main i-beam?



Again, sorry I cant do the cad drawing, A clothes hanger, is a truss shape, like the rafters /trusses in a pole barn, , the high point on the hanger is the point where the hook is, and yes welding a I beam on the back side of the main beam, and wedge is what Iam talkin about,. But instead of using a I beam, make a web, shaped like a clothes hanger, and weld it on,,


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## sdnomad (Jan 28, 2008)

*Finished pics of homemade wood splitter*

Here is the finished product.


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## gtstang462002 (Jan 28, 2008)

Looks like you have used it a little... Hows it do for you?


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## Hedge (Jan 28, 2008)

Looks like a keeper.... Great size for someone who doesn't have a lot of space to store it and yet big enough to get the job done.


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## blackdoggy (Jan 28, 2008)

You couldn't have built that it looks too damn good lol but if you really did build it it looks fantastic but I don't see your log lift.


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## triptester (Jan 28, 2008)

sdnomad,
The splitter looks great. Good work.

Jerry


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## SWI Don (Jan 29, 2008)

Nice Job. You must have a warm place to paint. I'm jealous. 

I like the Big Dog sign.

Don


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## kevin j (Jan 29, 2008)

-Just saw this thread, too late to matter but might help others.

-First off, a nice looking unit. For my needs, I like the lightweight, movable, and fast approach, not the big massive approach.

-Pump above or below is mainly based on pressure drop to get fluid to the pump inlet. With tight inlet line that doesn't leak air, in warm oil, and large lines, the tank can be feet from the pump. In most cases, It should be as close as possible, and below tank so the head pressure tends to push the fluid into pump. When it have to lift up, there is a negative pressure from that lift. Mainly, get as large as possible on the suction strainer, fittings, and hose.

-Tank baffle: Oh I do hope the baffle has lots of holes in it. Someone earlier implied the oil should go up and over the baffle like a waterfall. That adds lots of air and increases the chances of either aeration or cavitation. You want the oil to come back from return UNDER the fluid level, ideally slow down to a uniform smooth flow in a diffuser, then move as slowly as possible around the full tank distance. The point is to have as much time as possible for air to combine and move upward, while larger particles or water moves downward. The baffle is to direct the flow and keep it from short circuiting right from return to suction. Cut a couple lower diagonal corners off the baffle to direct the flow along the outer walls for cooling and to avoid any dead fluid spots. You DON'T want the baffles solid. Also remember cold fluid is really stiff, so the holes and space need to be quite large.

-Filters vs. strainers: Mostly semantics, is it a coarse filter or fine strainer ! Things with metal screens, 50-100microns or bigger, usually called strainers. Things with glass fiber or paper pleated elements are called filters.

-Filter 'ratings' are somewhat vendor smoke and mirrors. I won't go into Beta ratings for efficiency, Just get a good one for return flow. The 'rated gpm' is of course at some pressure drop, which depends on oil temperature and viscosity. If the vendor chooses to rate it with 10 oil at 160F temperature, for return line use it could go to maybe 30 psi drop across the filter, it can be called a '30 gpm filter'. To use on a suction line where the pressure drop should not be more and a couple psi with cold oil, it might be more accurately a 2 gpm filter.

-The bypass on a return filter is maybe 25 to 40 psi. Bypass setting on a suction filter is set to maybe 3 psi. Sometimes the spring & valve have two positions, sometimes they are different heads.

-Most of the standard oil filter sized return filters (with 1 inch fine threaded post and 1/2 or 3/4 NPT ports) I would use for about 15 gpm max on return line. Remember, the flow out return is greater than pump flow by the ratio of cylinder areas: Closed side area / rod side area might increase the return flow by 30 to 50% over pump flow.

-I would NEVER use a suction filter for logsplitter. I would probably use a suction strainer but vastly oversize it. What Northern calls strainer for15 or 20 gpm, I would only use for half that flow or less. They are not accounting for cold temperatures.

-Strainer or not is actually a difficult decision on case by case basis. It is to prevent weld berries or stray bits of trash from damaging pump, but can of course cause cavitation. I usually use a very large suction strainer (1/8 inch holes, or 60 mesh at the finest is using a screen) with most industrial systems. There, we fill the tank through a quick coupler to force oil through the return filter. For splitters, given that someone might pour in oil from a jug in the back of the truck with bits of dirt, wood chips, and maybe the occasional nut or bolt worked loose from inside the tank, I would use a large strainer.

-Cavitation is not the same as aeration. Yes, air can come out of suspension when there is a cracked inlet or loose hose. Cavitation is when the fluid pressure drops low enough in the inlet to pump that the oil actually 'boils' or vaporizes some volatile portions into a vapor. At a slightly different spot, the bubble collapses and the liquid around the vapor bubble slams into other liquid and the shock wave causes impacts to the metal parts of teeth, etc. Somewhat like detonation in a piston engine if you understand that situation. Anyway, cavitation is very hard on pump and erodes the metal surfaces.

-For cold start, heating the tank is a great idea. Remember to heat the pump and inlet line because the hose is still thick fluid. The magnet stick on heaters work very well on the tank at the strainer location.

-Cleaning the tank: Sandblasting the parts is good, blasting the finished tank is not. Bits of sand get trapped in crevices and weld joints, Sand, weld slag, or the mill scale on plate surface are essentially sharp particles of glass and very abrasive. They get released later when things flex or bounce. Sanding the mill scale off is good, or using pickled and oiled steel (not common in the scrap yards), or using stainless steel if you have it, especially for the lid. Phosphoric acid degreaser from the Napa store, used for degreasing body parts before painting, does a good job of cleaning. I would never paint the inside of tank. There are some specialized epoxy coatings, but mixed results and not for amateur application. Instead of rust particles, you can get paint flecks or big chips coming off.

-The splitter valve might be reversible in direction. Sometimes the fixed point on end of the lever can be mounted above the spool, or below the spool. That reverses the direction of spool motion. I don't know about the Prince valve: Is there a little chain link type connector there with two mounting bosses where it can be installed?

-Time to go to work. At some point I'll get back and add some more hydraulic info or formulas.

kcj


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## sdnomad (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks for the comments. The Big Dog sign I found in the scrap yard when searching for steel. If anyone is planning on building a log splitter and has any questions or wants dimensions, let me know. I have used it and it works great. The ram speed is fast. I used a 10hp motor and a 16gpm pump with a 4x24 ram. Thanks for everones help.


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## heimannm (Jan 29, 2008)

*Easy way out*

I bought my splitter from Tractor Supply about 20 years ago that is similar in design except: the wedge is on the end of the ram and the beam pivots vertically if needed for really large logs. Pump is above the tank and an in line 10µ filter on the return line. Pressure fittings are steel, designed for hydraulic use and the return line is a piece of red Goodyear hose. 8 HP Briggs & Stratton engine and two stage pump, not sure of the brand. The original coupling failed right away but the company provided a much larger Lovejoy replacement free of charge. I did have to replace the valve about 5 years ago as it started to leak. I think I paid around $1,300, maybe less than that and I have never regretted it for even a moment. This unit will cut an oak 4x4 set cross wise; not recommended but it is that strong.


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## Mike Van (Jan 29, 2008)

Lookin' good nomad -


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## Blazin (Jan 29, 2008)

Killer job on the splitter! You gots my vote!


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## rx7145 (Jan 29, 2008)

sdnomad said:


> Thanks for the comments. The Big Dog sign I found in the scrap yard when searching for steel. If anyone is planning on building a log splitter and has any questions or wants dimensions, let me know. I have used it and it works great. The ram speed is fast. I used a 10hp motor and a 16gpm pump with a 4x24 ram. Thanks for everones help.



What is your no load cycle time?


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## triptester (Jan 29, 2008)

A 4 x24 cylinder with a 16 gpm pump should have cycle times between 8 - 9 seconds depending on shaft diameter and the pump running at 3600 rpm's.


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## rx7145 (Jan 30, 2008)

triptester said:


> A 4 x24 cylinder with a 16 gpm pump should have cycle times between 8 - 9 seconds depending on shaft diameter and the pump running at 3600 rpm's.



I could live with that.


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## RON58 (Jan 30, 2008)

*Filter ??*

Now I'm confused. I built my splitter and after its done I read that I may have the filter in the wrong spot. I looked at the huskee at TSC for the locations of everything. They use a filter on the suction all of them. I used 16 gpm pump and 4" cyl. and have a 14-15 sec time. I think it should be faster? Helpful ideas welcome.


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## RON58 (Jan 30, 2008)

*Help*

OK,I am relocating the filter to the return side and about to cut the tank and install a strainer on the suction side. Does it matter if the filter is mounted side ways or possibly upside down?


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## kevin j (Jan 30, 2008)

definitely move filter to return side. 
Up or down doesn't matter. 
There is an in & out, or filter will blow up! oil has to flow from outside to inside of the element because of the way the pleats are supported. If going inside to outside, it wads all the pleats together, reduces area for flow, increases pressure drop. Also the bypass valve is backwards, so doesn't work, and the pressure can blow the can or seal or crack the housing.
Rented a splitter where it had been backwards for a long time, maybe from factory. They got water in the oil, that causes paper element to swell, increased the pressure, and split filter cans, several times. They just put new filters on and sent it back out. When it split for me, I found and fixed the problem. Rather than give me free rental in appreciation, they even charged me for the time I spent running for filter and changing and fixing! Did pay for the filter though. I have not rented anything there since...


If cutting tank, be careful of oil fumes, fire or explosion. Personally, I'd move the filter to return and not cut into the tank. I'd skip the strainer. You could also add a spin on inline larger mesh suction strainer externally.


16 gpm on 4 inch cylinder (assuming 24 stroke) should be 5 seconds out. Retract depends on rod size also.
15 seconds out is only about 5 gpm. You might be cavitating pump and can't pull more than 5 gpm, or might be on relief, or on low section of pump only, or engine rpm way down. 

Remove the suction filter and try it again and time it.

k


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## chub (Jan 30, 2008)

When piping the return line should you have a pipe on the inside of the tank run down into the oil ,or is it good enough just to weld the fitting about an 1 1/2 off the bottom and let it flow in that way? Also you dont see to many splitters with vertical motors; cant the pumps not be mounted that way or is there another reason. I have two motors a 15hp vertical and a 6.5 horizontall if I can use the 15 I was going to get a 16gpm and I guess the 6.5 I am limited to the 11. Most of the splitter was given to me I just need a pump I have a s/s tube that is 15inches diameter and three feet long would this work ok for the tank? Thanks for the tips Chub


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## triptester (Jan 30, 2008)

The return line is best mounted in the top of the tank, one less leak point, then extended to about 1 1/2" off the bottom.

The reason vertical shaft motors are used less often is that ready made pump adapters are not available.

Yes the S.S. tube would work for a tank in the horizontal position.


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## kevin j (Jan 30, 2008)

When piping the return line should you have a pipe on the inside of the tank run down into the oil ,or is it good enough just to weld the fitting about an 1 1/2 off the bottom and let it flow in that way? 
****The coupling is fine. If you use a NPT pipe threaded half coupling you can screw in a diffuser, or a suction strainer, to slow down the oil velocity. If you don’t use a diffuser, add some sort of baffle to slow down the oil velocity coming back into tank.
The pipe would only be needed if you need to get the oil to another part of the tank. Either way, you are trying to prevent oil from short circuiting right around to the suction and back to the pump. Want as much dwell time and smooth slow flow areas as possible. You do for sure want the return under the oil level, to prevent aeration.


ENGINE
Also you don’t see to many splitters with vertical motors; can the pumps not be mounted that way or is there another reason. 
****Pump doesn’t matter. It is usually because the vertical shaft motors don’t have the small 4 bolt pad to buy and mount the bell housing adaptor. You have to make a mounting bracket and align the pump. Easy enough for a home project, but for mass production, they need to bolt on and go. It also makes a tall stack with pump under the motor. If you put pump upward and use a timing belt drive, the stack height is smaller, but the pump has to be opposite rotation. I think Barnes only makes one or two models like that and they are not in common box/surplus store channels.
***Swisher or Schweitzer or something has that arrangement of vert shaft and pump upwards along motor. They have a belt release for starting in cold weather, a neat feature, so it must use v belts. I’ve used one, just didn’t take the guards off.
Multiple V belt drives with large pulleys are needed to transmit much hp with minimum belt side loading. Still, belt drive usually puts too much side load on shaft. Chain drive is noisy and maintenance intensive. 

Overall, the horizontal shaft seems to physically lay out better, but vertical is fine if you have it. The 12 hp, V twin lawn tractor engines are sweet running, smooth, and quiet. I’m not sure if a recoil rope start is available for them. Depending on the engine, may still need a battery for ignition. On my 18 hp flat Onan twin, no rope, I use the Jump Pack battery deals instead of a permanent installed battery. I would like to add rope start in addition to the electric. It has a magneto.


I have two motors a 15hp vertical and a 6.5 horizontall if I can use the 15 I was going to get a 16gpm and I guess the 6.5 I am limited to the 11. Most of the splitter was given to me I just need a pump 
*****I would for sure go with the 15 hp if it can work out. It could probably pull a 22 gpm pump. The 11 or 22 gpm is not the issue, you just set the unloading pressure as limited by engine hp. The small section operating at 2500 psi is the determining factor. Assuming the 22 gpm pump has about ¼ ratio for low flow, then 5.5 gpm at 2500 psi is only about 10 hp. Easily ok, even with manufacturers inflated ratings of 15 hp. 22 gpm up to about 700 psi is also about 10 hp, so you could set the unloader valve there. 
The down side is that the 22 and 28 gpm barnes pumps are much less common, and much more expensive: $300 vs $125 or so.
I’ve used many splitters and speed is the issue for me, not so much force. Force is determined by the cylinder size. Speed is determined by pump size, which is in turn determined by engine hp and operating pressure.
I would NOT use anything other than a two stage pump, even if it was free. You have the hp, put it to good use. Since you say you have most of the stuff cheap or free, just convince yourself you are using the money you saved there to buy a new pump! The savings now is forgotten, but the slow speed of operation is an aggravation every day you use it. 


I have a s/s tube that is 15inches diameter and three feet long would this work ok for the tank? Thanks for the tips Chub
*****Sweet. Rust free. Need some ss for ends, etc. You can weld it with AC and nickel rods (expensive), and can weld carbon steel to SS just fine. SS is hard to cut and drill as it work hardens the surface easily. Use a cobalt drill bit, heavy pressure and SLOW speed. Round is not the preferred shape, but with good volume you should be fine.


kcj


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## chub (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks guys I have a tig so the welding end will not be a problem. I thought it may have been a bearing issue why they were not mounted vertical. Thanks again I am getting exited about getting started on it. Chub


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## RON58 (Jan 31, 2008)

*kevinj*

Thanks for the input. I will try some of your ideas and switch some stuff around hopefully Fri. I'd like to get it straightened out so I can paint her this weekend. I said before that when planning my splitter I looked at TSC Huskee for where to put everything. Those machines have a filter on the suction hose mounted to the tank. According to what everyone says here thats wrong but they seem to all work fine. Am I missing something. Just wondering. thanks, ron


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## kevin j (Jan 31, 2008)

the filter may have been on return line going into tank, not suction coming from tank. 
Or, they may have had a spin on screen cannister not fiberglass filter
Or, they may have just had a poor design! Factory stuff is more likely to be right than most homemade projects, but just because it is factory doesn't mean they did it right either. One bad example is the clear vinyl unreinforced suction lines used on many factory machines. Garbage hose, collapses when hot, etc. Poor design yet that way from the factory becasue someone didn't n\know better, or tried to make it cheap.

That's why I write so much: not want to be solving someones problems, but to teach information so readers can understand and solve their own problems this time and next time.

enough soapbox, back the to the project. let's see some paint pics.....

k


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## RON58 (Feb 3, 2008)

*Owe Ya A Beer*

Well, Yesterday I used your advise and made some changes. I did cut the tank but use a hole saw and shop vac to keep the mess down. Welded on a coupling for a strainer. Then moved the filter over to the other line. Worse part was draining the thing. Filled her back up and MAN, what a difference. EEEHHHAAA I was like a little kid at christmas. 9 SECONDS. I actually ran to the wood pile for the narliest chunk I could find. 9 SECONDS and hardly grunts.I split a few more and shut her down. Spent the rest of the day cleaning, priming and painting.Will do more today (second coat). Took some pics before and when done I'll try to post some. Thanks again.Ron


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