# Spiking Palms



## Koa Man (Oct 16, 2003)

I just read the "Why I Am Charging $10" thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4492

Decided to start a new one since that one was so long. In Hawaii, spiking coconut palms is an accepted method of climbing them for trimming and all tree companies here do it. Most cannot be accessed by a bucket truck and those suggesting the use of a ladder, well how short are the palms you are doing??? Many here are 60 ft. or taller. I have done thousands of coconut palms. I charge between $30 to $125 a palm, depending upon amount of growth, location and height. My average palm charge is $37.50 for a 50 ft. with 6 months of growth. I use a cane knife for cocos, many guys are starting to use chainsaws, but the fiber clogs them up and the final job is not as clean and neat, not to mention all the sawdust. Using a chainsaw on cocos at the resorts are unacceptable. Too much sawdust and too much noise. My average time to trim a coconut palm with 6 months growth with a cane knife is 5 minutes. I have been timed as fast as 3 min. 47 sec. up and down. If SpikedSupra was doing coconuts and they did not have more than 6 months of growth on them and it was all a free drop, $10 is a decent price, although I charge $15 for cut and free drop, no hauling. $20 to $25 a tree if I have to cut, hold and toss the fronds and other debris to avoid understory damage. I would like to know how other guys trimming palms are doing so if they are too high for a ladder and cannot be reached by a bucket.

Please don't think I am a lowballer, quick buck artist. I am not new in this business, started in 1984, I am a certified arborist WC2191A, and have more work than I can handle. Doing a job today where my bid was $890 and the largest tree company here bid $600 for pruning a mango tree. New customer told me they went with me because of my explanation of how I was going to do it and my reputation.


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## Koa Man (Oct 16, 2003)

TREETX,
You did not answer my question. How do you climb palms that are too tall for a ladder or use cannot use bucket truck? Read my post...ALL tree companies here use spikes to climb coconut palms, I did not say trees. I DO NOT spike other kinds of trees unless it is a removal. FYI, I do not top trees. I have turned down jobs where the owner wanted the trees topped. 

If you think I am a HACK and want to check on my reputation here, I will be glad to send you at least 50 commercial, government and residential references.


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## TREETX (Oct 16, 2003)

FYI AGAIN - *I don't think you are a hack.* You sound quite established and probably have a lot to offer to this site. 

I was merely referring to the fact that spiking TREES doesn't sound too professional. 

I wish I had a solution to offer you based on experience. Truth is I don't. While I have worked in 3 countries on 2 continents, I have never worked in the tropics.

There have been other threads about getting into palms w/out a ladder or spikes. Hopefully some of those guys will chime in.

When I first started doing tree work and was not as informed as I am now, I drove down to the Yucatan and Belize where I spiked some Cocos out of ignorance. I do recall them being very juicy and they dripped from where I spiked them. That can't be good.


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## Burnham (Oct 16, 2003)

Koa, your statement that ALL pruning of palms in Hawaii is done on spurs is not correct. I have seen two seperate operations using Swiss tree grippers for that purpose, both on Big Island, one at one of the South Kohala mega resorts and one on high end properties in Kona town. No damage to the palms, either physiologic or cosmetic. Pretty much just as fast up and down as spurs. Cost a bundle to buy, though. I have spoken with the US distributor in the past and he reported that almost all of their (admittedly limited) sales are to Hawaii, so someone over there must be using them...


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Koa Man _
> * I would like to know how other guys trimming palms are doing so if they are too high for a ladder and cannot be reached by a bucket *



Hey there Koa Man! I've been to Pearl a few times - freaking beautiful country! Your lucky to get to live there, I wouldn't mind it a gaul'darned bit!

I would love to help you out but I don't know diddly about climbing Palms, we don't have 'em round here.

Prepare for a freak out over your admission of spur practices.

I'm waiting for an answer to your above question Maybe I'll have to climb a tall-arse Palm someday!

WELCOME!


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## TREETX (Oct 16, 2003)

Good point about what is "accepted" and what is "right". All to often they differ. I know of some tree companies that spike pines and firs for pruning(because their are no limbs to throw a line over ) No pines here!!

Someone stated earlier that 50yrs ago black people were forced to drink from a separate faucet, attend different schools, ride in the back of the bus, and were called *******. It was "accepted", but it didn't make it "right".

Lets find answers to these questions.


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## rumination (Oct 16, 2003)

I am very sympathetic to KoaMan's statements. spiking coconuts is pretty much the dominant method people use to access them here in Hawaii. I have been keeping my eyes and ears open for some time now to find a new method but without any luck. I have tried to figure out a way to install some sort of false crotch but haven't been able to come up with anything feasible yet. 

I personally do not spike coconuts because the botanical garden I work at owns a pair of swiss tree climbers, although I personally think they can be a pain in the ass to use, especially if the palm has any sort of bumps or tapers in the trunk. the drawback is that most small tree companies cannot afford the swiss tree climbers. I believe I have seen them in catalogs for $1500-2000. 

I agree that spiking any tree is bad, but until I learn another reasonable method of entering coconuts I cannot get upset at tree workers here that do so.

As for coconut diseases: I know that there are a few diseases that cocos can get but I have not heard of any that is wiping out the trees in the islands. I will try to do further research in this area, especially to find out if any of these diseases can be spread by spiking.

don't go ballistic on KoaMan. he is using the best currently known methodology. until something new is learned, which he is obviously interested in doing, then what else can he do?


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 16, 2003)

Climable palms are in short supply up here in the Land of Ten Thousand Lakes so I could be told that I'm talking out of place.

Like others have said, just because a practice is locally accpeted doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. 

I've talked with some of my southern cousins and they will set a rope with a through line through the crown of the palm and SRT the tree. Seems like that could be difficult to set and care would have to be exercised so that the live fronds weren't broken.

If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes. 

Whenever this sort of discussion gets going I like to leave this thought. If you wanted to save money on a paint job for your car you could certainly find someone who would paint over rust instead of doing the proper prep work. But, would you be happy with the savings when the rust starts to bubble through the new paint? Let your client decide. Don't spend or save their money, let them do that.

Spiking trees to prune is hack work.

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *
> 
> If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes.
> ...




VERY good point, INDEED!

The ones that don't care you don't need to be bothered with anyway. I 'spect the ones that do care will make up for those 'penny pinchers'.

And your rep will compound upon itself!


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## rumination (Oct 16, 2003)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom Dunlap 


If you want to set yourself apart from the rest of the pack you could stop spiking and explain to your clients that you have to charge more for taller palms because they take longer to prune without using spikes. 

Tom 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree with this 100% but it still does not address the question: what is an alternative method of accessing very tall cocnuts? you can't charge more to prune without spikes if you can't get into the palm without spikes!

I have noted the suggestion to throw a rope over the top of the palm and ascend SRT but I would suggest that this might be even more dangerous because if you severely damage the terminal bud of the palm it will kill it. for this reason I have not yet tried this technique. perhaps some of the climbers from Florida have experience with this.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2003)

Maybe this?


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## Koa Man (Oct 16, 2003)

I would buy Swiss tree climbers but they are not practical. A lot of the coco palms are growing through other trees or brush or have vines growing on the trunks for 20 or 30 feet. Many of the coconut palms are not straight trunks but have a very pronounced lean or large tapers. What about those that have lights mounted on them like at many of the resorts. The trick is not only getting to the top, you have to work with two hands free once you're there.

The virus that was mentioned earlier is the Phytophthora katsurae which is causing heart rot. Research by the University of Hawaii has shown that heavy trimming especially during wet weather spreads the disease. Pruning tools should be disinfected by immersing them in a fungicide after pruning each palm. Chain saws spread the disease more than cane knifes because logically it is harder to disinfect.

TREETX, thanks for not considering me a hack anymore. I will make this offer, as I would really like to know of an efficient way to climb palms without spikes under the different conditions noted above. 

I will fly anyone from anywhere in the United States round trip to Hawaii at my expense, if they can demonstrate to me how to efficiently get to the top of a palm tree that is too tall for a ladder, inaccessible by a bucket truck and be able to work at the top with both hands without using spikes, gaffs, spurs or what ever else you call them. I am sure the landscape managers from the different resort hotels that I have worked at, the City Arborist and all the different tree contractors would be interested in seeing this demonstration. I will arrange to have it held in front of the largest hotel in Waikiki. They have a nice 80 ft. leaner with a taper and lights mounted on the trunk. Be a good chance to impress the hundreds of tourists on the beach.  

Also FYI, I hate using spikes and don't even use them on removals if possible.

burnham,
I did not say all palm tree pruning is done with spikes. I said all tree companies use spikes to trim coconut palms. I have seen many use bucket trucks when feasible, I have done so myself. But if the tree bicycle cannot climb the palm (see conditions above) they will use spikes.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2003)

Alright youse guys! Heres yur chance!!

Can whoever goes send me a shirt?


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## ORclimber (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't know if this would work but....this would get you the first 30' http://www.futureforestry.com/3rd level/Product Pages/ascender.html Or a ladder would do the same. Then maybe you could use a 30' pole to push a loop/running boline/cambium saver etc. up to 60'...then climb srt. Maybe have a second loop to push up once you've climbed to the first. keep pushing the loop up and climbing up to the loop. It would have to be something retrievable from the ground. Maybe a loop with some stiffness so it would push easier before it was sucked tight. I use a lightweight pole called a long lineman that is about 24' extended and folds up to 6' that I use to set lines and pull hangers. It would work well for pushing a loop, might even come in longer lengths. Linemen use them to pull fuses and such.


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## Koa Man (Oct 17, 2003)

Getting the loops over the mounted lights would be a problem. At the top, how can you stay positioned and move up and down one to two feet and move completely around the head of the palm to trim it? You need to be able to be pretty rigid swinging a cane knife in a palm tree swaying in 15-20 mph trade winds. In all honesty, it would not work and even if it did you would be so exhausted after a few climbs you would be done for the day. The Hawaiian Village, where I trimmed the cocos for three times a year for 3 1/2 years, has 450 cocos.


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## Dan F (Oct 17, 2003)

Not being familiar with palm trees in general, or Swiss climbers, has anyone tried or thought of trying a climbing deer hunting stand? 

Some models you can't adjust for lean of the tree once you are in the tree, I believe others you can....

Shouldn't be too hard to design one that could be built by a competent welder for less than $200-$300 (IF that...) that can be adjusted once in the tree. Climb up with a saddle on, use a friction saver as an additional tie-in when you have to take it apart to get around the lights. Do both halves separately, and up you go....

Once again though, I'm not familiar AT ALL with palm tree pruning, and it's been about 7 years since I've even seen a real one in person...

Something like this is what I'm talking about, though not exactly this make/model:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...catalog/pod-link.jhtml_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712
Click on the header "Climbing Stands" above for more options...

I'm not sure if this one is adjustable once in the tree, but I HAVE seen ones that are..........

Just a thought. Blow holes in it like normal.


Dan


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## Rob Murphy (Oct 17, 2003)

*palms*

I have just been to Brisbane and had my first experience at climbing palms, Cocos Island palm.I used the Srt method and as Rocky said it can be hard to set the line , especially as you need to aviod the terminal bud. I was doing it for a friend so time was not an issue but it is doable. I was cutting with my" NEW "Silky Zubat which did clog up a bit I must admit.Stability was an issue...and these were straight up an down.
I can understand Koa Man's dilemia ..
Have you tryed SRT Koa man???


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## Koa Man (Oct 17, 2003)

I have not tried to SRT up a coco. I descend from a coco palm using a false crotch around the trunk. I use the ones with one big ring and one small, tie a knot in the end of the rope that will go thru the big ring, catch the small ring and pull the false crotch down. It will be extremely difficult to set a line in the top of a coconut palm from the ground. Even if a line was already set, you would not be able to use any method that required the climbing line to move. Most climbers that use ropes to descend from the coco run the line thru the fronds. As they descend the line works its way between the base of the fronds and sometimes it takes the weight of 2 guys to pull the rope out. The same thing will happen if your line was moving while ascending. Footlock up maybe?? The climbing deer stand looks interesting, but I don't know how easily you can move it around the trunk. Many palms are located where you would not be able to even get an extension ladder to it because the base is surrounded with unclimbable shrubbery or other junk around it. On those the mechanical devices would be useless. I understand that I could use the spikeless methods on trees that can and spikes only on those that cannot, but the spikeless method MUST be efficient. Most experienced coco climbers can easily get to the top of a 60 ft. palm using spikes in 15 to 20 seconds. I would consider a spikeless device efficient if the setup and ascent to the top was 2 minutes or less. On a 450 coco job that would add 12.50 man hours.


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## rborist1 (Oct 17, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Greg (Oct 17, 2003)

I've also tried the SRT method and ended up breaking 2 fronds I never wanted to touch trying to get my rope out, not to mention the 3 tries at even setting the rope. I tried twice with throw line, but it is so thin it just sinks down into the small little areas that will not allow you to pull a climbing line through. I ended up tieing a large monkeys fist with the climbing line and slung it over the top, luckily this was only a 30ft palm 50-60 forget it. The customer actually came out and said are you sure you know how to do this.....Man I looked stupid, I couldn't say I don't want to spike you palms, cause at that point I knew I was going to spike the other 4 I still needed to do. That one ???? palm took me over an hour an looked like crap in the end due to the broken fronds getting my rope out. I HATE to admit it, but If I can't get them with the pole saw, or ladder, I spike them. 10 minutes later and they look great. 
Climbing hunting stand sounds like a viable option on straight palms.
Greg


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## Burnham (Oct 17, 2003)

Koa--I stand corrected. 

And I was not thinking of mounted lights in the equation. Those would be a real hinderance for grippers! Bumps, lean, both can be worked with. Lean is not much different than on spurs; bumps and taper take a bit of time to adjust the gripper bands, but is doable...likely not inside your 2 minute window, though.

An antique method that comes to mind is the steeplejack technique. Some of the really basic tree climbing protestors have used it here in the PNW. Tom Dunlap, this is not even as modern as 8-track  . Two or three adjustable or girth hitched loops are used. See ON ROPE. Way too slow for any of us, Koa for sure.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 17, 2003)

i hate palm dust, bugs, rodents, fiber in saws, 12"+needles, nasty stingy mildews etc. stuff that grows on the end of said needles, fiber in chipper wheel. sand in stump, harde to grind, non burning etc.....

So, i just been turning down what i can't ladder. Not spiking, jest another excuse, i have always been afraid of killing the tender center bud from blindly throwing a line over and SRT or DdRT-ing up. i have had trouble getting a line out after descending from the crown etc. too; getting it pinched hard through several crevices between fronds.

i have an etriers i made out of some 5/8" ol'ArboPlex, stretches about 7' from prescriptions in the "On Rope" , nylon highway 'bible'. With foot-step loops in it; i can get another 6' off the ladder by reaching waaaaaaaay up and choking sling to hold it(etriers). Preferabbly with lanyard dead manned (in round turn etc. position to hold an unconcious climber up), and at least 1 leg to front D's (lanyard under etriers, with etriers going between legs of lanyard to climber) is safer methinx. 

Standing in the top step, i can bring the now unused portion of the etriers up; set another sling, hang what was the down end of the etriers, shift weight off the now lower sling. Keeping the lanyard under the etriers, and releasing the bottom sling everytime, allows me to be totally connected to dead manned lanyard choke all the time, never taking it off. At top, i might throw another lanyard into crown for sitting comfort angle of support. Choke last lowest sling around stem and connect. Cut standing in etriers, connected by 2 lanyards, and sling sometimes. Can be a lot of work, a straight palm strategy usually, not too bad for the first 6-12'feets off ladder spike free; to trim top or next strategy etc. So, i'll even pass on a lot of that, hard on my hip after wreck, don't like much about palms!

Some massive palms with a lot of heavy growth, i cut a stair path to top, tie in to crown, and walk around in a circle with saw trailing behind me cutting underneath rather than to the side or overhead.

Or something like that!
:alien:


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 17, 2003)

Burnham,



Using slings to girth hitch would be more like Edison cylinders...

I've seen a method of climbing palms where a loop of material is twisted into a figure eight. The toes go into the loops and the crossing part goes on the tree. By pulling on the sides/back of the trunk and pushing in and back with the foot sling, the climber can bounce up the trunk. 

I can imagine a method to secure the climber to the trunk. It would probably use a steel core flip line wrapped around the trunk and clipped in. By pulling on the two legs of the flip line, it would choke the trunk. Then scootch the feet up and repeat. If the climber ever slipped, the choked lanyard would grab and not run down the trunk.

Do I get a trip to Hawaii? I might even be willing to split the ticket with you if you can wait until the snow is deep here in Minnesota.

I'll modify my "hack" statment here. Climbing live trees with spurs is hack work. It sounds like you're struggling with this issue and that's great!

Tom


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## Koa Man (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rborist1 _
> *When I was on vacation in the Dominican Republic 2 years ago I saw the employees on the resort we were staying at climb up 40-50ft palms in mere seconds without the use of spurs. They were using a homemade type harness with an adjustable foot/leg loop. I took pics of the system, now its just a matter of finding where the pics are. When I find them I will post them.
> 
> Will I still qualify for the trip to Hawaii?  *



Yes you would, if you can demonstrate the technique to us. At the Polynesian Cultural Center here, climbers do the same thing for tourist demos. They get to the top, hold on with one hand and knock a couple of coconuts off the tree. I seriously doubt that system will keep you in place on the back side of a leaner. Some pronounced leaners are difficult to get around even with spurs. Like I said earlier, the problem is not only getting to the top, you need to be able to work with two hands free. My offer still stands. Demonstrate a spikeless system that you can set and climb a 60 ft. palm, even without mounted lights, but it must be a leaner, since most cocos have at least a slight lean, in 2 minutes or less, and I will buy you a R/T ticket to Hawaii. If you fail, you will need to reimburse me for the cost of the ticket.  

Another thing about throwing a throwball into the head of a tall palm. Who or what will you hit if you miss??? I cannot imagine trying to get a throwball into the top of a 60 ft. palm at a resort hotel with dozens of people walking around all the time. A major reason why I dropped a major hotel contract was the frequency of which tourists would walk thru our roped off, warning signs posted work area with palm fronds and debris on the ground and other stuff dropping. I wanted more money for the risk and on the next contract increased the price of trimming cocos by $1.50 per palm, $2025.00 annual increase. Hotel wanted to keep prices same. I said aloha even though that contract, with the palms and other trees gave me 12 weeks of work a year and 20% of my income. They still call me to do high risk palm or branch removals and to R&R the lights on the trees. Landscape manager said they don't "trust" their current tree service provider to do these kinds of things. 

Tom Dunlap,
You qualify too. Same thing, you must demostrate that it works and you can also work in place at the top of the palm with two hands free. Winter is fine. I hang the Pro Bowl banners from the coconut palms in Waikiki for the NFL the day after the Super Bowl. Take them down the day after the Pro Bowl. You can come then and help us using your system. Meet some Pro Bowlers and NFL cheerleaders.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 17, 2003)

Rocky,

Now that's the last straw! I sit up here trying to come up with a reasonable solution and all you can do is beat me up! Go back and read what I prefaced my post with, an acknowledgement that I'm out of my league. You keep going off on me, and I thought we were buddies. Sheesh!!!


Just having some fun  Palms are way out of my league, I know. I would like to understand palm physiology better. Does spiking damage the palm like it does to woody plants? How do palms grow? Do they have a cambium like woodies?

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Rocky,
> 
> You keep going off on me, and I thought we were buddies. Sheesh!!!
> ...




Yeah, I kinda thought that too, once.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 17, 2003)

Maybe we outta give this guy a holler....


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 17, 2003)

http://www.caske2000.org/survival/coconutclimb.htm

Read down and see what he talks about crampons.

Tom


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## rumination (Oct 17, 2003)

Did a little research: both heart rot and other palm diseases can be spread through the injuries left by spikes. I have been told that it is wise to disinfect spikes as well as cane knife before each job.


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## Koa Man (Oct 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *Accepted or not, the fact remains that using spikes for pruning is hack work.
> 
> *



I agree with the above statement EXCEPT in the case of coconut palms which need pruning at least every 6 months to be safe. Most commercial accounts do them every 4 months. If using spikes is hack work on palms, then tell me the workable alternative. Remove the palm because it is too tall for a ladder or inaccessible by a bucket truck??? Don't prune at all and if the coconut falls and kills or injures someone, too bad, too bad??? Even my generous window of 2 minutes to get to the top is about 6 times longer than most climbers can get to the top using spikes. Multiply that time by the number of your ground crew and you have some very expensive labor standing around. 

Tom, 
The link you posted is the same method rborist1 mentioned. You will note that a person can have only one hand free. You must have two hands free to prune a palm.


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## TREETX (Oct 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Koa Man _
> *Many here are 60 ft. or taller. I charge $15 for cut and free drop, no hauling. $20 to $25 a tree if I have to cut, hold and toss the fronds and other debris to avoid understory damage. *



I am sure you are quite the professional and are doing the best with what you have. From my prospective, it just seems odd. I guess you make your money by the numbers, the price for just 2 would be much higher??? 

You couldn't get me out of the house for that little $$ I think that is why the original post got ragged on. You sure could not get me to climb that high for that little eventhough I could probably comfortably footlock that in 30-40 seconds.

Sounds like killer cash. 

1hr/5minutes per palm = 12 palms per hr

12 palms * $37.50= $450 per hour. Smokin!!

$450*8=$3600 

That is hauled off, so $3600 a crew day??

96 palms a day!?!?

I know that ain't real, so describe a more realistic day.

Seriously, Iam curious.

BTW - My old ground man is there now on his way to Afghanastan. He said there are some monster trees.

*You started off by defending Forrest, the biggest difference between you and him is that he only had 2 weeks experience.*


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## Koa Man (Oct 18, 2003)

TREETX,
My minimum charge is $150.00, unless it is something like the neighbor from across the street asks us to cut something small and since we are already set up, I'll bid a fair price.

Pruning coconut palms can be lucrative, and many climbers here can prune a maintained coconut palm in 5 minutes. That does not mean 12 an hour and 96 a day. 30 a day is considered a good output for a climber. It is very exhausting work and frequent rest breaks are a must. There is also time spent sharpening the knife.

A typical day for me for residential accounts with a good number of cocos this past month went like this. #1. 30 cocos, 1 climber, 2 groundmen in 7 hours. #2. 34 cocos, 1 climber, 3 groundmen in 6.5 hours. #3. 27 cocos, 6 ornamentals, 2 climbers, 2 groundmen in 8 hours. 

I am the owner, I climb and work on the ground. My other climber also works on the ground if not climbing. No prima donna I only climb and don't do ground work type person works for me.

If you ever come to Hawaii or decide to go for my free trip contest, let me know. You can try a few palms...you may like it and move here.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 18, 2003)

My addition to the linked method is to add a safety belt and lanyard. When the climber gets to the top they have footing and fall protection.

Sure, this is going to take longer. If you were to give your clients the information about disease exposure from spiking what do you think they would say?

The next time I see the dentist I'll tell the technician and the dentist to save money and not was their hands or sterilize the tools before they go to work. Should save me big money.

By setting yourself apart and doing proper work you have the opportunity to make more money and do the best work possible. The rest of the competition won't be bidding on the same specs as you.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 18, 2003)

Yes, i due beleive that product differentation is an important marketing concept........

Or something like that!
:alien:


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## Stumper (Oct 18, 2003)

Just a little FWIW info. Climbing treestands are nifty gadgets. Some are quite stable and as DadF mentioned some even have ways to compensate for diameter changes. However I have to say that I've never seen one that was truly non-wounding. when used for their intended purpose they come pretty close-they knock off or crush a few bark scales but on thick barked trunk that isn't very significant. When taken up into the smallwood the ones I've tried skin bark. Whether that would be significant on a Palm I don't really know. Designs differ but I used to have one that allowed hands free, secured working from the moment of arrival.(I played with working out of it a little but didn't find it practical-once I was up into the limbs secured free-climbing was easier. My palm experience involves numerous prunes from the ground , felling and bucking and stumpgrinding. I have never climbed one. If the Swedish"bicycle climbers aren't a viable option then I suppose that climbing treestands are out to.


Still I have this idea knocking around--- Take the basic foot climber or hand climber design, pad the front grab bars heavily. Replace the back bar or chain with Arborist rope (steel cored flipline should turn the trick). Secure a Grigri or other such device to the frame fairly far back along the side. Space some idlers along the side bar so that as trunk diameter drops you can flip back to a new idler post and take out the slack with the Grigri. Now with a pair of those and a chokered lanyard you should be able to climb quickly and securely once you become accustomed to them. At the top you can circle the tree on the foot climber-you probably would have to move the hand climber out of the way. Actually you can climb with only one but it means a lot of trunk hugging and is slower. You could just use a chokered loop for the hand climber portion. Frankly I don't know how that would effect climbing times. This isn't going to be as fast as gaffing up but If you are selling your 'lower wounding 'services it ought to be fast enough to make $$. Yes , I'm talking about palm climbing which I've never done so I may be full of frijoles BUT I have used the foot climbers (back when I had NEVER used gaffs) and think that the modified design I propose has potential.
:angel:


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## Dan F (Oct 18, 2003)

Stumper, that was me that mentioned the climbing stands, not Dad. Not that it matters though, I'm told we look a LOT alike.

We who live north of the tropics, can sit here all day long and throw out hypotheticals, but there is no practical way to test what we are throwing out there. Heck, we don't even know much about the trees themselves, let alone how to climb them....

Ultimately, I'm afraid, it will be up to those who live in the tropics to test what we are mentioning. And unfortunately, they don't have the winter "downtime" like we do to test out these theories!

Maybe the Morton Arboretum (or another?) can get a palm trucked in and placed in a large greenhouse so's we all can try our hand without having to fly to Hawaii (though I wouldn't mind that trip _too_ much!).


Dan


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## Koa Man (Oct 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *My addition to the linked method is to add a safety belt and lanyard. When the climber gets to the top they have footing and fall protection.
> 
> Sure, this is going to take longer. If you were to give your clients the information about disease exposure from spiking what do you think they would say?
> ...



Believe me, it will not work. Footing WILL NOT be secure enough. I had a Samoan climber who could get to the top of a coconut tree barefoot faster than I could with spikes. Asked him about being able to trim the coco with straps around his feet and a belt. Impossible around the back side of even a slight leaner.

Of the thousands of different cocos I have done, only about 10 were removed because of disease. It is not much of a problem. Some places have lost a few, like 12 out of 80, but the percentage is not that high among the ones I do.

Hmm, maybe I should ask my dentist what kind of discount I can get.

Only ones who might pay extra is the resorts, and that would be only on trees newly planted. The old tall ones with lots of spike marks already would not make a difference. Remember, they did not want to pay $1.50 extra after I had been already been doing the palms for the same price for two years at a lower cost than the average commercial and residential account. When they hand you a 5 figure check every 4 months for coco maintenance they figure they are giving you big bucks. 

I will revise by offer for the free trip. I will increase the time to 5 minutes on a tree with nothing mounted to it. This is setup, get to the top and be stable enough actually prune the coco with two hands free. Although in reality, 5 extra minutes is way too much time to add to a bill for spikeless climbing. I also think that the mechanical devices will lose its grip on a leaner and you will end up on the back side hanging on for dear life.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 18, 2003)

Well, with enough lean; my counter-intuitive senslelessness says to come up under the lean with dear stand type cam chin-barring climbing up?? ?

Then there are the palms with all the loose 'saddle boots' from years before like papery overwrap from years of previous trimming off fronds and leaving ends; oh especially ones with 12"needles for next climber left on the ends uselessly  , meant to give stalk different texture and color, not worth a flip to grip climbing..... Especially thickly laiden sliding masses of them, that evewn with spurs are a devil to climb. You have to peirce all of that and cork to get meat to hold ya on spurs. Then a bunch comes off skewered onto the spur as you pull the spur out from tree, and kinda 'clogs' the next placement, after providing drag on leg from trying to tear free from the fibers still connecting spur and tree from 12" away sometimes.

i totally recommend a round turn on lanyard rather than just single wrap for the basket of support to climber; backed up with a sling to choke stalk and connect to climber (also a 'dead manned' grip strategy). At least 1 leg of main support to front D's for comforte; sometimes more for foot hold loop or tying inot head with lifeline for better and comfort support etc. IMLHO the extra shifting of stalk solidness through connecting to loose material, nil branching, slick mono-stalks etc. place it into the upper category for extra safety strategies.

The dead man chokes on the stalk can be held open by hand, and will still close on anything in path at loading..... A soft, wider 'SpanSet' type sling won't pinch digits so hard if that happens; er uhhhhhhh mmmmmmm Ummmmmmmm so i hear! 


Orrrr something like that.....

:alien:


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## Gord (Oct 19, 2003)

I don't have a solution that fits Koa's stringent requirements but I have an idea that may be an improvement on the basic SRT technique for a palm that must be climbed sans spikes.

-set throwline in top of palm, doesn't need to be in life supporting crotch/placement just kinda stable.

-clip biner on end of throwline and clip in climbing line at midpoint.

-pull up doubled climbing line to just below fronds, once up put on running bowline in climbing line and pull up to cinch line around trunk at top of palm.

-ascend SRT and work top standing in girth hitched slings.

to get running knot to cinch at highest possible point may have to pull at an angle with running knot like a scaffold or running anchor bend for some friction to keep loop away from trunk until the top.

just an idea, tell me why it won't work. i've never climbed palms.


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## rbtree (Oct 19, 2003)

Gord, 

Hey, that sounds like a great idea that could and should work. I could see it working if the trunk were smooth. And with a leaner, it would be easy to get the loop to cinch up. 

It is also a technique that I think we could find useful in other situations. I thank you for the idea and will play with it!!


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## Davidsinatree (Oct 19, 2003)

If you are gaffing palms every 4 to 6 mo I would think over a
period of time they would look like they belong in count-Dracula’s
or Frankenstein’s yard. I have gaffed some of trees in my yard,
some have heeled up good but some gaff wounds are still 
oozing and have a rotting look going on.  I did notice my brooks gaffs were really leaving large wounds, and I also kicked out a few times in them. So I started looking for another set of gaffs that I would feel more secure in and bought a set of kliens. Never kicked out in them and the wound they leave is small compared to the brooks. So what brand of gaffs are you trimming palms with? Do palms heal up fast?
Here in KC I have not noticed any tree co trimming without
gaffs, its the way I was taught and didn’t know any other way
until I found this site. Went to tree climbing comp in Springfield,
mo this spring and learned to foot lock & bodythrust.  

David


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## Koa Man (Oct 19, 2003)

Gord,
I think I understand what you are describing and if I understand correctly, it will be impossible to get it over palms with mounted lights, signs or attached cables. 15% of the palms at the resort I worked at have something mounted on the trunk. 40% of the palms around the pools. As stated in one of my earlier posts, who or what will you hit if you miss the toss with your throw ball. We are talking about palms in the 60-80 ft. range. Often times swaying in the trade winds. 10-20 mph trade winds is the normal type weather here. I am extremely happy when it is a windless day doing palms. I also think a lot of times the throw ball line will work its way down and get stuck in the sharp Vs of the base of the fronds.

David,
IMHO, I think Stringer-Brooks are the worst gaffs you can buy. Kleins are the best for palms. Stick real good and that is what I was using. I now use Bashlin aluminum climbers, more comfortable, half the weight, but the gaffs themselves are not as good as the Kleins. After constant spiking, the old coconut trunks get hard as a rock and the gaffs do not go in more than 1/4 inch even if you kick it real hard. If you just stepped on it the gaff will slide. On a trunk that has hardly been spiked, gaffs will go in 1/2 inch just stepping on it.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 19, 2003)

*REPEAT*

Can one of the tropical climbers explain the physiology of palms to me? Do they have a cambium like woodies? What damage do spikes do to the physiology?

Spiking thick barked trees isn't physically damaging but it is unsightly. Can the same be said for palms?

Tom


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## Koa Man (Oct 19, 2003)

A coconut palm does not have a secondary xylem layer so technically cannot be classified as a woody tree. Areas of the trunk that have been spiked become calloused and very hard, like a rock. When climbing you would spike an area that has not been spiked before. Eventually on an old palm, the bottom section has been spiked all over the place and the whole section is rock hard. Often times you need to set your gaff into an old hole to climb up, otherwise your gaffs will not stick. The higher you climb the easier it gets to spike because it has not been spiked as much. No sap comes out of any spike marks and the whole trunk is made up of densely packed fibers.


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## Joe (Oct 19, 2003)

Tom: Harris, Clark, and Matheny(4th ed.) explain enough about palm physiology and palm pruning to satisfy me. I can keep a low profile and turn the other cheek when the tropical guys talk about spiking them. Decay,
(according to the 4th ed.) in coconut palms in Hawaii is practically non-existent. They (all Palms I think)
are considered arborescent monocots which lack secondary xylem and do not produce annual rings of wood. Otherwise, they're weird and aren't really trees as we know trees.

Joe


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## Joe (Oct 19, 2003)

O.K., so, I wasn't satisfied by the explanation in the 4th ed. For the sake of having a reference:

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT410/MonoSec/secondarygrowthmonocots-1.htm

Joe


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## Stumper (Oct 19, 2003)

As Joe and Koa have stated-no bark. no cambium. no xylem. I am intrigued to learn of a hardening response in coconut palms. My limited palm experience has been with Washingtonias, Queens, Dates and Cabbages. I didn't note any decay from gaff wounds in the Arizona palms but I've heard reports of gaff related decay in more humid climes.

Perhaps gaffing Coonut palms is a non-issue?


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## Reed (Oct 19, 2003)

Appropriately, palms are a grass not a tree.


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## Stumper (Oct 19, 2003)

Joe posted his link while I was typing. I now know much more than I understand. . Thanks Joe!


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## Striker (Oct 19, 2003)

So then, if palms are not trees then wether or not to spike them is a moot point. Not a tree, no problem.


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## Stumper (Oct 19, 2003)

They are trees. Check the reference works. They are very different from other trees however. My previous post was erroneous. Saying "no xylem" is incorrect but the xylem is arranged very differently in palms.


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## Tom Dunlap (Oct 20, 2003)

Go through the link that JOe posted. You'll see that monocots are arranged differently than dicots. From what I gathered, the xylem bundles are not at the out surface like dicots. That MIGHT make them less vulnerable to spike damage.

I wrote to the Prof. who wrote the page. If he responds, I'll put up whatever he says.

Tom

PS Joe, you get an A on your homework


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## Reed (Oct 20, 2003)

I just think this discussion is good for opening a box of assumptions.

Immune response on a molecular scale is not innate, it's accumulated. Memory more or less. That's why we give innoculations of specific pathogens to trigger resistance mechanisms for immunity. That's why trophy buck breeders scarify antler stems in young deer, or the pot grower kicks and yells at his plants. It's exercise in simple terms using stress response to strengthen. Each cold or bout with a flu bug leaves us completely resistant to that specific variety forever - for example.

Other than diseases prevelant in the Carribe and the lower 40's, Hawaii's been gifted with isolation from particularly destructive fungal and bacterial events, resistant so far to what most planted palms succumb to in resort areas of other tropical locations. Wish same could be said about other flora and fauna but as of yet, spiking challenging growth has few alternatives - and evidence abounds around the Islands that so far shows little chronic effect detrimental to each tree's vigor. 

I think it's our preconceptions that wounds hurt, keeping us overly protective of ammending any further stress factors - yet we can only sit innocently by as Momma nature constantly stresses our trees but those trees endlessly heal themselves fom fractures, breaks, and diseases. The bubble boy (of which I was once one) who is released from his protective environment suddenly finds himself indefensive of threats we manage well every minute of every day - the native tribes of America dying en mass from germs Europeans only sniffle from. 

I thank also, that by studying and gaining acute understanding of disease on a micro-level we've become over-protective of pathogen exposures, helpless in the face of epidemics and doing everything we believe is fundamental in saving potential hosts from spreading destruction - most of the good minds in disease research hobbled by chemical approaches to fight pathogens. Why not study the requirements of the disease and conditions instigating it instead of when it's too late - it's become a wildfire.

Foremostly, the palms need never to have dead fronds removed, it's our idea of beauty that they suffer from but we're way removed from that - we want everything marching and saluting to our whims. How German we are. With that we're going to trim, feed, move, and regiment everything to our standards and the only feasable way to trim those suckers that grow thin and spindly and way the hell up there with countless barriers on the ground...is to spike 'em. Or teach our big toe to grip like a thumb - the way we used to climb. 

Just my two cents.


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## Toddppm (Oct 20, 2003)

One of my guys from ElSalvador knows how to use a length of rope with loops pre-tied and alternates them as he goes up , pulls out the previous one as it's tied with a kind of slip knot. Don't see why you couldn't use something like this, then a regular lanyard so you could use both hands up top then come down on a false crotch or figure 8????
I'm sure he'd take a free trip to Hawaii


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## Greg (Oct 20, 2003)

The biggest problem with trimming palms is that no one wants to pay decent money to get them done. I will not go out and give a quote of trimming palms, I ask questions over the phone and give a high price ($50-75 per) and typicallly don't get the work (don't want it). I do trim them when they are part of a larger project or are for someone that is important to my business.

Keep coming up with these good ideas, but to really crack the palm nut the solution must enable the climber to trim them quickly. 10 minutes per palm is way at the high end for the $$ people are willing to pay in high palm areas. Too many pick up truck guys "specialize" in palms and do them for $10 per. 
Greg


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## Stumper (Oct 20, 2003)

I won't climb anything for $10! Well, okay, I'll go up steps to trim something for $10 but I won't climb a ladder let alone a tree for that.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 20, 2003)

i've pondered whether they need trimmed or not; i see it as more than a beauty deal; the excessive dead rotting stuff harbours fungus, tons of insects(ants, roaches, wasps etc.) fire hazard etc. making untrimmed palms have different problems to communal living with people IMLHO; including bee allergic people going nuts when 10 or so 80# 'flower pods' open per plant at once 15' from their door. 

i've seen ants making homes in old spur holes.

2.


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## Koa Man (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Toddppm _
> *One of my guys from ElSalvador knows how to use a length of rope with loops pre-tied and alternates them as he goes up , pulls out the previous one as it's tied with a kind of slip knot. Don't see why you couldn't use something like this, then a regular lanyard so you could use both hands up top then come down on a false crotch or figure 8????
> I'm sure he'd take a free trip to Hawaii *



He sure does. Needs to get to top of a 60 ft. coco in 5 min. or less (I generously increased time from the original 2 min.) and show that he is stable enough to actually work at the top with 2 hands free. He needs to be able to completely circle the palm. Can't prune it properly only from one side. I REALLY want someone to take me up on this challenge. Remember, you will need to reimburse me the airfare if you fail. I will even allow you a full day of practice before you make your attempt. In all honesty, I doubt anyone can do it in 5 minutes. As Greg said, 10 minutes is getting on the high end over here.

Stumper,
A lot of guys here will jump at the chance to trim cocos for $10 IF they did not need to haul away the debris. If you hired a climber here for $10 a coco, no hauling, you will probably end up paying him $50-60 an hour for an 8 hour day. Even going at a normal pace they would do 30 cocos a day. Pay by the tree and you will be amazed how fast they move.


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## mquinn (Oct 21, 2003)

oakwilt - good points both about assumptions and pre-stressers vs. bubbles.

do you still check your sailing address or am i just sending stuff out to the cyber fishies?


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## Reed (Oct 21, 2003)

It's active as long as I am. Maybe even longer. 

Did you see the war's about Christians against Muslims? No wonder no one cares about dead G.I.'s. Are Mormons christians? (I really don't know)


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## Stumper (Oct 21, 2003)

Oakwilt, RE: Mormons/LDS. It depends on who you are asking. They say yes. Many 'christians' say no.


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## Reed (Oct 21, 2003)

Guess that kind of answers it, thanks.

Anyone really know how many different brands of christians there are? Just curious.

Back to spikin' palms.


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## Stumper (Oct 21, 2003)

Well there are genuine ones, false ones, confused and disturbed ones and..... several hundred denominations whose members claim to be Christians. The nature of people I guess. Jesus prayer for his disciples shortly before his death-"That they all be one". Unfortunately, we aren't all very good followers.

So... to keep on topic-Do true Christians spike palms?


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## Reed (Oct 22, 2003)

Just reminds me about how an idea spreads.

A couple years back - when I came back to Texas after a few months back east where all my equipment was lost, I decided to specialize in dead oak removals only. Lacking funds I appealed to the board here and Tom came thru with a set of spikes for me...I had checked the retailers though, no one carried them anymore because in the words of one dealer.."they spread disease!" 

What a simple closed-minded individual. Never thought about dead trees, plent of 'em here. Spikes not needed 90% of time but that other 10.....


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## Rob Murphy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Always Learning*

Its only when you "get it" that you don't "get it" that you really do "get it".
Thats why I "try" not to lock into comfortable patterns that work for me.
Keep learning by asking 'is there a better way'.
And thats why I follow "Jesus" because he says there is.
So the aurthentic Christian/arborist would do that.......
"ask"


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## Koa Man (Oct 23, 2003)

Dead fronds on cocos will lay against the trunk. Very rarely will you see that unless you are in the rural areas here. All commercial places and almost all residences in the city and bedroom communities will have their cocos maintained. Too much of a hazard otherwise.


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## Stumper (Oct 23, 2003)

So Koa, if the dead fronds aren't against the trunk. You COULD choker a line using Gord's technique, climb the line, lanyard in, work, and rappell down. The difficulty would be your positioning for work once there-throw on a lightweight foot climber at that point and you have a movable, non-invasive springboard. ....BUT you've already nixed the linesetting part and I don't see how this could all be done in your timeframe. Maybe some of these ideas will bring some benefits to others even if they don't solve your problem.:angel:


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## daniel kraus (Oct 24, 2003)

My fathers Tree Company is on the Big Island, They use the Swiss Bicycle to do coconuts that are free of spick marks. Usually at fine resorts and condos. They charge a pretty penny and get it. 

A tall coconut Palm that has no spick marks looks so fantastic. They market the people that want the best, let the low bidders fight it out.

Of course they can be a pain to use, exceptions have to be made. Forget about it with vines, or really slimly leaners. Lights can be dealt with but a real pain. I’ve done my 30+ a day using them so it can be done. I think my brother does more than that even. Cheers.


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## daniel kraus (Oct 24, 2003)

I mean spike marks not spick marks. Cheers


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## jblimbwalker (Oct 24, 2003)

*past thread*

This was touched on a while back by Dennis' thread 'Spikeless Climb'. Cool to look back and compare ideas.


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## Darin (Oct 25, 2003)

Please guys keep the political debates and religious debates out of these sections of the forum. You guys are usually far enough off base in talking about politics and religion, but this is way off base for palm trees. This is a forum not a chatroom. The debate of christians vs. muslims seems interesting, please start a thread in the off the topic forum.

BTW- Mormans are Christians, they do believe in Jesus Christ. It is more of a cult version though.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 26, 2003)

Wow, you tell them to not have religious debates then throw that bomb?

Just because they don't beleive in the Trinity and all beleivers will be saints?


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## NickfromWI (Oct 26, 2003)

A CULT!!!!

Oh man. They are as much a cult as are the catholics, lutherans, baptists, etc.

love
nick

and the palm trees.....


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## Reed (Oct 26, 2003)

Gentlemen - please keep within the boundaries of religious followers spiking palm trees and how each faith has a particular method. By the way, how would a Hindu do it?


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## Darin (Oct 26, 2003)

I guess the idea of not having religious political/debates in this thread is not going to happen. Yes, I did say cult, because it is just like one. What is a cult? The word cult is defined by Websters Dictionary as "a religion regarded as unorthodox." When Christians speak of cults, they mean groups which they believe do not hold "orthodox (biblical) christian views." Therefore, the label "cult" as used here is not intended to be derogatory but only a semantic way of recognizing the difference between biblical christianity and the beliefs that certain groups might hold. 
These are the reasons, I, as a biblical christian, can say they are "cultists" or unorthodox.
The authenticity of the book has many weeknesses.
They are:
1)They claim 38 major cities built by the people of the first migration around 2200BC existed. No trace or any other achilogical evidence has ever been found to support it. Of all the universities in the US only BYU (Pride of the Morman educational system) has ever tried to substantiate this.
2)Dispite the problems in their claim they are still led to believe in their correctness by a living man (Joseph Smith). This is a cult leader. I relize biblical christians can be called cultists also. Such as mormons saying this of Jesus Christ, but Joseph did not claim to be the son of god, Jesus did. He also proved to people he was.
3)Facts do not matter to Mormans. A key to understanding mormons is that they have absolutely unshakable faith in Joseph Smith, their first prophet. What ever happened Smith is still their source of divine revelation, their foundation of their entire view point. 
4)Joseph found Egyptian hyroglyphs, where he interpreted them as his book of Abraham. Egyptologists say that they were nothing more than special funeral instructions to embalmers.
5)The biblical Christian bible never changes, the mormon bible changes constantly to fit their needs and wants. 

I can go on and on, but this explains what I meant.

Here is a good book for everyone to read the differences for many religions. Very interesting. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0830707212/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref=nosim/102-3197095-3626531

It has Muslim beliefs, catholic, Hindu, etc. It gave me an idea where people are coming from. This may be a good book for current events also. It gave me more understanding why many in the Middle East fight for religious views all the time. For the used price of a buck fifty, get it. I read each with an open mind, and many practices had very good qualities. Even if you are a athiest, it would be good for anyone to see where others are coming from.


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## NickfromWI (Oct 26, 2003)

"...The buddhists sits and the tree is happy."

love
nick


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## Gord (Oct 27, 2003)

Religous discussions are for the most part pointless. Disbelievers armed with facts and believers armed with faith cannot effectively debate/discuss matters as their perspectives are worlds different. It simply doesn't work. It's impossible to understand a religion without believing as it takes faith rather than reasoning and intelligence.

Good to see you around dan, you shouldn't be so scarce.


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## Rob Murphy (Oct 27, 2003)

> _ as it takes faith rather than reasoning and intelligence.
> 
> . [/B][/QUOTE
> I would say ....it takes faith "plus" reasoning and intelligence.
> Just my biased veiw...._


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## Reed (Oct 27, 2003)

If he is, then he's given us the ability to reason, so we should use it.

Hitchhiked years ago across the U.S. An older woman with a plastic Jesus on the dash rode me thru the Beartooth Pass in the middle of the night, I dosed off until something woke me up to dive towards the wheel and jerk it left so the van would correct itself back onto the road - her right tires all but over a thousand foot drop on a curve in the road.

She quietly resumed her driving and stopped for pizza in Wyoming a few minutes later. Turned out she was mad at me for not letting God decide what the van would do. Told me to never scare her like that again so I opted for another ride later on from someone else. On the back of her van a bumper sticker said: God Is My CoPilot. 

I saw that as - if there was a God, he woke me up in time. 

I started spiking palms after that.


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## TREETX (Oct 27, 2003)

God was my Copilot but we crash landed in the mountains and I had to eat him............


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## budi (Sep 28, 2009)

*Climbing a Coconut*

I do it everday without spikes, gaffs, or any tools. I can climb any tree. I'm born and raised in Sumatra and have climbed cocos since I was a baby. 

Budi


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 28, 2009)

Holy-6-year-old thread batman! Thats some post dredging your doing! I bet Koas charging a bit more now!


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## outofmytree (Sep 28, 2009)

Spurless palm cleaning is a subject I am greatly interested in and then I looked at the dates on the early posts....

This guy a voodoo zombie witch doctor or something....


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## budi (Sep 28, 2009)

*Barefoot climbing*

I'm perplexed about your replies. I am a female friend of Budi and business owner in Kihei. Budi is a man who climbs like a monkey with his bare feet. He cuts my cocos at my hostel in Kihei and has wrapped my 50' trees with cable lights that look amazing all lit up. How he climbs, is a skill. Why are you replying with such sarcasm and critisizm. I posted this because I think it's amazing and none of you who talk to each other can climb without tools. The responses are really mean, and unnecessarily critical. He has a skill and talent any arborist would love to have the strength to do. I'm going to make a youtube video of his amazing talent so all can see how to climb and cut fronds with ease without spikes. I guess most Guys are so critical when someone can do what they can not. ???? Lighten up! Tracy


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## treemandan (Sep 28, 2009)

I thought you could throw a line over the canopy and climb up on that. Sure I have climbed palms... on vacation. No I don't do it for a job but if I did from what I hear the last thing I would do is approach from the bottom on the trunk.


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## outofmytree (Sep 28, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> This guy a voodoo zombie witch doctor or something....



I looked at this and realised it could be mistaken for abuse.

I was referring to the age of the post. Back to life after 6 years the way zombies come back to life..... Too much Vincent Price as a boy I guess....

Anyway, I have seen footage of barefoot Samoan palm climbers. They have some serious skills and muscle power. Just not my climbing style.


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## Stewardship (Sep 29, 2009)

*Would Lazarus Spike?*

I wonder if Koa Man is still monitoring this Lazarus thread? Is anybody else using India Climbers? Koa Man, I'll take you up on your challenge; and you need not pay air fare. I am on the Big Island. One caveat, if you give me a truly nasty coco to climb, will you stand by with the spider lift in case I get stuck and need my mommy?

Budi: In India they have a saying "Many men climb trees. Some fall."

:deadhorse:


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## Koa Man (Oct 1, 2009)

It was brought to my attention that this old thread was resurrected. I am now using a 15GT and 23GT on the palms that require spikeless trimming. I have over 300 coconut palms that require spikeless trimming every 3 months at 4 different hotels in Waikiki. These lifts are used on even ones that can be spiked if I can get the lift to them.

I am no longer interested in other means of climbing palms without spikes as I am pretty sure they will be slower than a spider lift, especially since I can usually hit about 3 from one location and in some areas, up to 7.

1st photo is the 23GT at the Hilton Hawaiian Village.
2nd photo is the 15GT at the Grand Waikikian.


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## beastmaster (Oct 1, 2009)

yeah, I like that Koa man. Spider lift. I live in So. Calif. and I spike up tall ass Washingtonian all the time. Never climbed a coco palm but those leaners look like they would be a bi__h. We have a lot of different kinds of palms here and we try not to spike em, but a 100 ft washingtonia with fronds all the way to the ground is probably going to get spiked. Most climbers I know won't even climb tall palms. I have often climb out of a 60ft bucket and spike up rest the way. Even when you get a rope throu the top it'll often times get stuck between fronds and the only way to get it out is to hook it to the truck. I hate climbing palms, but if you haven,t had to climb 50, 80fters you shouldn't be casting stones. I'm a CA and I practice spike less climbing. Haven't spiked a trim job in 20 years, but I've carried a 28ft latter from palm to palm climbing up as high as I can and gaffing up rest the way. I also use vary dull gaffs and don't jam them into the palm leaving as small a footprint as possible. I was hoping to learn a new spikeless technique from this thread but I'll probably just keep gaffing up those tall, nasty, dirty, Washingtonia's and get paid vary well for it.


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## Bermie (Oct 1, 2009)

Whoa, ho...them's some bendy palms! 
I'm not sure at all I'd climb those spikes or not! Looks like you found the right solution.


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## budi (Oct 1, 2009)

*Retract*

I appreciate your clarification to the sarcasm. I realize you are all pros and he's just an immigrant from Sumatra, but this guy can climb. This is a great network of people of knowledge, and he can relate. Any employment suggestions for him? He's a really good honest guy and works veery hard. He will move from Maui for a job. T


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## LawnMoore (Feb 26, 2011)

I guess ill chime in here with my info about palms.

I searched for palm pricing and found this!

Im in florida, i spike palms with pole spurs, i climb light, and i charge 35-200 per trim and cleanup.

19 bucks is as low as ill go on a yearly trimmed cut and run, no cleanup.

35 per is my min on cleanup +, 200 is as much as i have ever charged for one of the spiked palms over a pool, cut and swingem. ( yea i took a few holes home ; )

average 35-50 (if its 1-2 palms @ 50 per, i like a 100 min on palms. (200 min on any trees)

-peace


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## offshoretreeze (Mar 13, 2013)

Koa Man said:


> TREETX,
> You did not answer my question. How do you climb palms that are too tall for a ladder or use cannot use bucket truck? Read my post...ALL tree companies here use spikes to climb coconut palms, I did not say trees. I DO NOT spike other kinds of trees unless it is a removal. FYI, I do not top trees. I have turned down jobs where the owner wanted the trees topped.
> 
> If you think I am a HACK and want to check on my reputation here, I will be glad to send you at least 50 commercial, government and residential references.



How's this work for you? 

-Launch a throw line over the top of the palm. 
-Haul your rope up on TOP of a loop of flexible drainpipe. 
-Choke rope when you get to the top. 
-Climb up. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/231509.htm


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