# Mods Please Do Not Move This To The Chainsaw Forum



## 2dogs (Nov 18, 2021)

So let's not make this a pissing contest (yeah right). 

I am curious what you guys set your rakers and cutters to and whether you use a gauge. Here in the west where we cut real trees, softwoods like redwood and D-fir (and eucalyptus when we have to), (and madrone and tanoak) we alter the angles and the raker depth depending on the job. I only use and understand round filed teeth so comment if you wish because the principles are the same, I can just skip over that part. 

I mainly use skip chain because I only have to file 2/3 the amount of cutters. Clean wood gets filed at 25 degrees and dirty wood at 30 degrees. I have nothing against full comp and I run it on small saws just not on longer bars, that is over 28".


Raker depth is around 33 to 37 thou, no two raker gauges file the same. This is standard for me. Cutting redwood I run the rakers way down, like 40 or 45 thou. I rarely check with a micrometer.

These stats are for 3/8's only btw.

Does anyone know what Oregon or any other manufacturer calls for on 1/4" chain. I only have one saw that uses 1/4" but it appears to be quite rare.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2021)

Welp.

To preface I run 2 main saws, a 360/036 with a 20" and a 461 with 32", both run full comp square with chisel ground. for bigger stuff I jump up to the 661 with a 36"and a skip tooth, or for reeallllly big stuff the 084 with .404 skip otherwise everything runs 3/8 chains.

As for raker depths, I start with the Oregon .025 raker gauge, then ignore it somewhat...
the 20" saws are mostly for limbing behind the skidder/excavator so they get knocked down to the .03-.035 range
the 32" saws do it all, so they start out at the .025 or just a little shy, as they do tend to bog down in a full cut. too shallow and they don't limb for ****, too deep and they get grabby.
the other stuff in skip chains get the full .03-.035 ish (they eat whatever I throw at em and don't complain so I mostly just try to keep them even)

Here in the great PNW... we get in what I deem hardest to softest, the occasional pacific yew, madrone, D fir, Big Leaf Maple, Hemlock, Alder, cherry, birch, Ponderosa Pines, cedar, cotton weeds (black poplar) I don't change my angles for **** though, as a sharp chain cuts good regardless.

I will note again: Douglas Fir is as hard are harder then a lot of Maples, depending on how old it is the guts can be like cutting iron. 
Our Hemlock out here is only a little softer when green, though it doesn't get hard when old like DF. Western Red Cedar is a lot like Redwood/cyprus/etc cuts about the same barks a lot different, very thin, but all of them are soft and soak up bar oil and pack in the chips.

P.S. my hardest to softest, is green wood, but you will notice that many "so called hard woods" are way down the list of what is more difficult to cut, the only ones that change places once dry would be the maple/fir, and the Hemlock would drop to just above pine 

P.S.S. as or round vs chisel, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference on raker depth, as all your doing is controlling depth of cut, and there fore chip load, its that chip load that slows you down, clogging up the works and creating more friction. A chisel will cut faster yes, but only cause the saw can carry more speed, once you drop too deep the chips just get in the way.


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## catbuster (Nov 19, 2021)

I run 3/8 chain on everything, mostly bars 25-42”. The saw that sees the most use is my MS 461 wearing a 28” bar. I don’t change top plate angles that much from stock round filing. Stihl RS chain cuts just fine stock, and better once you use the 7/32” file instead of whatever Stihl uses to originally grind the chain.

For square chain I usually end up around a 15 degree top plate angle, I like the way it cuts, and I feel like it’s more durable. I don’t use square chain enough to really give any good advice, though.

Rakers depends on the species. Most of the time I’m at .025 for hardwood species here in KY. When I worked out west, most recently in 2018, I worked mostly at .035 for a good all-round chain. Cedar & Ponderosa Pine cut well with lower rakers, Doug Fir, Poplar & Maple cut better at .035.

Skip vs full comp… 32” is kind of the breakover point for me. Longer than that and I only use skip chain. I like skip chain in anything Matt mentioned, it carries a bigger chip those species produce a lot better. Full comp slashes brush better, but I am human and as such will get the tip in the dirt from time to time, and it takes a lot less time to get a skip chain back in shape, so it’s what I use when I go on fire duty and the sawyers cut as much brush as timber.

Lastly, I think a chain does cut smoother with all the teeth the same length and the rakers set the same. But it’s not worth keeping up with if not using a grinder.

But that’s just what I think.


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## rwoods (Nov 19, 2021)

I wonder what angles this guy runs? Looks to be a skip tooth.



Ron


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## 2dogs (Nov 20, 2021)

Oh great. First we had oil threads, now we're gonna have beaver tooth threads.


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## Jhenderson (Nov 21, 2021)

Real trees huh? Yeah the rest of us are cutting grass. Raker depth is dependent on how hard the wood is. End of story. I file exactly opposite of the OP. Clean wood at 30 degrees , dirty at 25. The shorter angle supports the corner better at the cost of a little speed.


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## Franny K (Nov 22, 2021)

2dogs said:


> Does anyone know what Oregon or any other manufacturer calls for on 1/4" chain. I only have one saw that uses 1/4" but it appears to be quite rare


Oregon has changed ownership and putting 25ap chainsaw chain pdf no longer works to get data. This seems the case for other chain coding. From the back of a cardboard box at least 5 years old
5/32 file, 30 degree angle, 10 degree up angle, and .025 or .65mm. Stihl also has put much less information in the sheets that come with loops of chain. You probably will like 13RM much better it is almost a chipper chain where the 25ap is a micro chisel with bumper drive links cutting a narrower kerf.


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## 2dogs (Nov 22, 2021)

Franny K said:


> Oregon has changed ownership and putting 25ap chainsaw chain pdf no longer works to get data. This seems the case for other chain coding. From the back of a cardboard box at least 5 years old
> 5/32 file, 30 degree angle, 10 degree up angle, and .025 or .65mm. Stihl also has put much less information in the sheets that come with loops of chain. You probably will like 13RM much better it is almost a chipper chain where the 25ap is a micro chisel with bumper drive links cutting a narrower kerf.


Thanks for the input however 13RM is not 1/4" chain. 1/4" chain is an old seldom seen chain. 13RM is 14" Pico chain like is used on pole saws or the MS150


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## bwalker (Nov 30, 2021)

Real trees? I have cut old growth Douglas fir and Ponderosa pine here in Montana, which is slow growing and harder than the stuff on the coast. It's gopher wood compared to oak, hickory, sugar maple or beech.


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## Franny K (Dec 2, 2021)

What Is Gopher Wood? | Cut The Wood


In the Bible, God commanded Noah to build him a vessel, an ark. This was to be made from a particular type of wood: gopher wood. God also sent Noah specific




cutthewood.com





Gopher tree can be cypress or any of the following: cedar, pine, ebony, fir, wicker, juniper, acacia, bulrushes, and boxwood. It is also very likely that gopher wood doesn’t exist today. There is a large number of plants and trees that may have become extinct since the time of Noah.

The great flood in Noah’s time has destroyed all the earth so there is a huge possibility that what was used in the ark was also destroyed as well. Some researchers believe the word gopher doesn’t refer to a species of wood at all. They believe that it is a process used to prepare the wood in the ark’s construction.

There are some archaeologists who say that gopher may have referred to a lamination process which was done to improve the stability of the wood due to the extreme size and weight of the ark. The ark was said to be about 550 feet in length!

Conclusion​It is unclear if gopher wood really existed. Scholars of yesterday and today are still deciphering what gopher wood is from the Bible and from these studies are theories that may have been true. But all-in-all, gopher wood may have been very strong, reliable and versatile considering it was chosen by God above all wood to build his ark.


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## bwalker (Dec 2, 2021)

Franny K said:


> What Is Gopher Wood? | Cut The Wood
> 
> 
> In the Bible, God commanded Noah to build him a vessel, an ark. This was to be made from a particular type of wood: gopher wood. God also sent Noah specific
> ...


I'm not touching that one.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 2, 2021)

Think some folks need to "gopher" a drink and maybe stop hitting the wacky tabacky


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## 2dogs (Dec 4, 2021)

Ugh. I know I have no control over any thread but really, why drag religion into saw chain thread?


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## newforest (Dec 20, 2021)

Where I live, “gopher wood” means firewood that burns up too fast, like Poplar or Ash. You put some in the stove, then you immediately go-pher more of it. 

I have never cut Douglas Fir larger than maybe 12”; it is planted here in Michigan as Christmas trees and then sometimes never harvested. But after a couple decades it succumbs to local tree diseases (needlecast I think), and can barely keep just its current/new season needles and thus growth slows so much it just dies or gets overtopped and then dies in the shade. But I often wonder if the slow growth here might make for at least a small amount of some nice strong tight ring boards in the little logs. I always like a Doug Fir board when my Dad occasionally points one out to me. 

So I am now totally confused about how interior slow grown DF in Montana would compare to those hardwood species I cut regularly (except Hickory; am too far north for that).


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## newforest (Dec 20, 2021)

As for the OP’s question that is just not in my league. I am not doing production harvest work; I do pre-commercial Timber Stand Improvement. Normally the diameters I work with don’t seem large enough to overly worry about changing angles and depths; and I use a brush saw a lot anyway. I stick to what I know, full chisel 3/8” using the manufacturer line on the tooth for the angle - which would be 25 I think - and the depth on my Oregon gauge which I think is .025. 

But lately I have been thinking I should up my game on this question as I am cutting a lot of Beech and at diameters at ground level where cuts are big enough that a little increased speed would certainly make for a more cheerful day. 

I do cut very flush to try to create the best sprout stem possible that won’t rot out decades later. Beech is not the desired crop tree, just cutting residual stems after harvest, so all the other Northern Hardwoods can come up with it equally. Otherwise the existing Beech would simply dominate the new stand. But cutting low in sand country wears chain quickly from rain splattering soil particles on the bark, and occasionally I miss the perfect clean line above the duff a little. 

So could use some ideas on best chain set up for cutting lots and lots of Beech. A weird angle to the job is the second most cut species there is White Pine.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 20, 2021)

newforest said:


> Where I live, “gopher wood” means firewood that burns up too fast, like Poplar or Ash. You put some in the stove, then you immediately go-pher more of it.
> 
> I have never cut Douglas Fir larger than maybe 12”; it is planted here in Michigan as Christmas trees and then sometimes never harvested. But after a couple decades it succumbs to local tree diseases (needlecast I think), and can barely keep just its current/new season needles and thus growth slows so much it just dies or gets overtopped and then dies in the shade. But I often wonder if the slow growth here might make for at least a small amount of some nice strong tight ring boards in the little logs. I always like a Doug Fir board when my Dad occasionally points one out to me.
> 
> So I am now totally confused about how interior slow grown DF in Montana would compare to those hardwood species I cut regularly (except Hickory; am too far north for that).


I'm thinking that them former christmas/yule trees are more likely grand/noble fir, as a proper Douglas fir makes a terrible tree to decorate, they are kinda thin and whippy when young, far less dense needle structure too. 
and that blight that hits the grand/nobles is common in tree farms around here, but the D fir is uneffected. 
Also the grand/noble line is fairly soft, more like pine, where as you will know when you find a proper Doug Fir


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## bwalker (Dec 20, 2021)

newforest said:


> Where I live, “gopher wood” means firewood that burns up too fast, like Poplar or Ash. You put some in the stove, then you immediately go-pher more of it.
> 
> I have never cut Douglas Fir larger than maybe 12”; it is planted here in Michigan as Christmas trees and then sometimes never harvested. But after a couple decades it succumbs to local tree diseases (needlecast I think), and can barely keep just its current/new season needles and thus growth slows so much it just dies or gets overtopped and then dies in the shade. But I often wonder if the slow growth here might make for at least a small amount of some nice strong tight ring boards in the little logs. I always like a Doug Fir board when my Dad occasionally points one out to me.
> 
> So I am now totally confused about how interior slow grown DF in Montana would compare to those hardwood species I cut regularly (except Hickory; am too far north for that).


I am from MI originally. Douglas fir is slightly less dense than Tamarack, if you have ever cut that in MI. In other words it doesn't compare in density at all to MI hardwoods.


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## grizz55chev (Dec 20, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Think some folks need to "gopher" a drink and maybe stop hitting the wacky tabacky


Every party needs a pooper!


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## BlackCoffin (Dec 20, 2021)

I second the old doug fir being harder and nastier to cut comment. Get one along in a field that has survived decades of windstorms from all angles and you’ll find it’s about as hard as they get. 

Had a log milled on a bandsaw once and they guy asked me if this tree was alone out in the open. I told him it was in a line with a few others. He said I thought so, nothing makes my saw work harder and dull blades more than an old doug fir that’s seen the elements.

anyway to the OP, I run all my chains at 30 degrees and .030 on the rakers. This is for all PNW species.


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## Clearwater (Dec 21, 2021)

I run everything at 30 degree & .030" depth, standard and skip 3/8". 
About the hardest thing to cut around here is dry & pitchy Doug Fir that's full of knots. You're cutting along fine and then your chain stops cutting and you think you rocked it. You see the chain is still sharp and that it's just those super hard knots. Big Spruce knots are also very hard.


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## newforest (Dec 21, 2021)

The old Christmas trees really are Douglas Fir. They held a significant portion of the market into the 1990s. If you prune them they can make for a nice thick tree. They did generally have to be painted usually though, and they need good cold air drainage or frost can really whack them here in Michigan, though original source provenance would play a key role there most likely. 

And they weren’t quite as good-looking as a Fraser Fir, which now dominates the market. But that species can also have it's problems and those are on the upswing lately. So some growers are trying the Noble & Grand, but also the Turkish & Korean Firs too.

We have a nice really hard hardwood - Ironwood. Ostrya virginiana in the Latin. Easy enough to cut green. The ‘iron’ is when it’s dry, when it dulls chain and throws sparks. No problem out in the woods, then? The fun begins when you cut into a large one that has a now dead core beginning to hollow out - that heartwood is already dead - & dry - & your sharp saw might not make it all the way through the cut you started.


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## newforest (Dec 21, 2021)

double post, soar-eee


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## SamT1 (Dec 24, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Real trees huh? Yeah the rest of us are cutting grass. Raker depth is dependent on how hard the wood is. End of story. I file exactly opposite of the OP. Clean wood at 30 degrees , dirty at 25. The shorter angle supports the corner better at the cost of a little speed.


Yup, cutting dirty mesquite I run 20* I get atleast 1/4 cord more on a chain vs 25*, I have not run at 30 in too long to remember.
I set rakers at about .040, but I’m running a 500i with just an 18” bar. I hog the gullet way out too. Stihl RS when I’m at .050 groove width, I buy archer for .058 and .063 as I wear the bar out.


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## slowp (Dec 25, 2021)

Bill, dunno if this is what you are looking for, but in the real world of landings and yarders and stuff, I questioned some chasers. (the guys who unhook the logs at the landing). They make it simple, except you have to have a memory. About every third filing of the chain, they "hit the rakers" with a flat file, a couple of times. No fancy gauges, just eyeballing. That seems to work. Plus, they are usually using a 32 inch bar and round file and probably full skip. I didn't use a saw every day by any means, so have had trouble remembering how many times between raker "hitting". However, Old Sparkless still won the 032 races, 'cept for when raced against fresh from Madsen's square file chain clad saw. 

A chaser also stated this memorable line. "I send the saw down sharp, and it always comes back dull." One could philosophize a bit about that line and how it could relate to other things in life.


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## esshup (Dec 26, 2021)

newforest said:


> As for the OP’s question that is just not in my league. I am not doing production harvest work; I do pre-commercial Timber Stand Improvement. Normally the diameters I work with don’t seem large enough to overly worry about changing angles and depths; and I use a brush saw a lot anyway. I stick to what I know, full chisel 3/8” using the manufacturer line on the tooth for the angle - which would be 25 I think - and the depth on my Oregon gauge which I think is .025.
> 
> But lately I have been thinking I should up my game on this question as I am cutting a lot of Beech and at diameters at ground level where cuts are big enough that a little increased speed would certainly make for a more cheerful day.
> 
> ...


I can't comment on angles or depths, because I'd be guessing. BUT since we have a ton of sandy soil here I can comment on what helps to keep chains sharper for a longer period of time. I use semi-chisel vs. any other, AND I had all my chains cryogenecially treated. That seems to make the intervals between sharpening a bit longer and if I do hit sand, it doesn't seem to dull as fast or as bad. I've seen the chain throwing sparks in the evening when cutting the tops of trees, so I think the squirrels have carried sand up in the trees on their paws. It seems to be worse in the crotches of the trees than any other place on the tree besides the stump in the root flare area.


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## 2dogs (Dec 29, 2021)

slowp said:


> Bill, dunno if this is what you are looking for, but in the real world of landings and yarders and stuff, I questioned some chasers. (the guys who unhook the logs at the landing). They make it simple, except you have to have a memory. About every third filing of the chain, they "hit the rakers" with a flat file, a couple of times. No fancy gauges, just eyeballing. That seems to work. Plus, they are usually using a 32 inch bar and round file and probably full skip. I didn't use a saw every day by any means, so have had trouble remembering how many times between raker "hitting". However, Old Sparkless still won the 032 races, 'cept for when raced against fresh from Madsen's square file chain clad saw.
> 
> A chaser also stated this memorable line. "I send the saw down sharp, and it always comes back dull." One could philosophize a bit about that line and how it could relate to other things in life.


Thanks Patty. The best saw filer I know, his chains are incredible, uses the same technique. He files without any guide and files rakers by feel, a swipe or two every three filings.


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## 2dogs (Dec 29, 2021)

esshup said:


> I can't comment on angles or depths, because I'd be guessing. BUT since we have a ton of sandy soil here I can comment on what helps to keep chains sharper for a longer period of time. I use semi-chisel vs. any other, AND I had all my chains cryogenecially treated. That seems to make the intervals between sharpening a bit longer and if I do hit sand, it doesn't seem to dull as fast or as bad. I've seen the chain throwing sparks in the evening when cutting the tops of trees, so I think the squirrels have carried sand up in the trees on their paws. It seems to be worse in the crotches of the trees than any other place on the tree besides the stump in the root flare area.


For several years I worked on summer job in a river channel where sand was a major issue. The trees were submerged every winter so the fine sand was all the way to the tree tops. Each of us cut hundreds of trees each day and semi-chisel was the way to go. The chains lasted a week and became too stretched to function. The sprocket nose bars lasted from three hours to a week. I switched to hard nose bars and that problem was solved. Semi-chisel filed at 35 degrees and 30 thousands worked the best.


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## slowp (Dec 30, 2021)

The guys working in the blast area after St. Helens blew just carried a zillion chains. Some of the FS folks who went in after for site prep and planting would find some of the stashes of chains that were left, or forgotten. 

It wasn't fun to cut in and my former neighbor said he lucked out and had a contract cutting on the Olympic Peninsula so didn't have to deal with volcanic ash.


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## Joseph W Santora (Jan 5, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I wonder what angles this guy runs? Looks to be a skip tooth.
> 
> 
> 
> Ron



Defiantly full comp self sharpening super chissel.


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