# Double tie in point?



## biker (Sep 2, 2004)

Just wondering what some of you guy's and gal's use when you need to use a second tie in point? Tie the end of your rope directly to your saddle, and tie the knot of your choice, or perhaps carry a second split tail for when the need arrises?
I do a little of both, I'll just use the tail of my rope and tie in the old fashioned way if I only need a short time secondary crotch. Or If I know I'll be double crothcing a lot, say trimming an Elm or any variety of really wide spreading tree's I'll carry a second split tail.
One thing I don't carry on my secondary tail is a micro pulley and boy do I miss it. One small item I should modify.

Tom


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## John Stewart (Sep 2, 2004)

Hey Biker
I don't use a second tie in point to often!
Usually it is in the spur of the moment so I use my tail and go back to my original tie in system which is a Blake with no split tail set up.
Later
John


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 2, 2004)

I use a 2nd tie-in a lot, especially on trims. I just use my tail.


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## BigJohn (Sep 2, 2004)

I just use my one end. If I need a second tie in I just pull my eye and CS out and reset it wear I am. This is the advantage of teh split tail use it.Then maybe I move to a third and then a fourth then maybe back to my original or maybe I'm feeling good that day and never move it at all. Idon't like haveing two lines attatched to me. Its hard enough to go anywhere with one line and 4 times as hard to go anywhere with two ropes tied to you. I guess if you don't want to go anywhere then sure just tie yourself up. If want to get some thing done hang a life line and go. Your a climber not a swinger or trapeeze artist. Stop the insanity and stop useing this technique. Throw away the crutches. Get up and walk. Stand on your own two feet. Maybe buy a boat and get your sea legs.


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## OutOnaLimb (Sep 2, 2004)

I carry an extra micro pulley and tress cord as well as a throw ball and about 30 ft of throw line in an old army M-16 ammo pouch on the back of my saddle. The short piece of throw line comes in real handy for settin that line. I have found that using a pole saw to set the line kinda sucks, or some times I will use a monkeys fist to set the second line. I like to double crotch a lot when Im walkin wayyyyyyy out on limbs and it gives me a lot more stability.

Kenn:Monkey:


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## Guy Meilleur (Sep 2, 2004)

*Sea Legs??*

I use a 2nd tie-in a lot. Use tail if only brief, 2nd rope often. It saves time and work. Bigjohn maybe trees in PA ar every different, or else you are. Why not gain an advantage?


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## biker (Sep 2, 2004)

*double tie in point*

Yea, I'm a new poster but not a new climber. I was just trying to get some friendly opinions, and maybe get some interest in a new subject. I get from two members ATTITUDE and critisisim (sp)
Squirrel and John I guess if you've never tied in twice you must just climb little baby tree's. Effiency and ease is the name of my game. By the way I never use a pole saw in a tree. I defy anyone to choose a better tie in point then myself...
OOps now I have an attitude...

Tom


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## John Stewart (Sep 2, 2004)

So Biker was I attitude or critisim?
Also why do you think I must climb small trees?
Maybe I'm just comfortable at heights or maybe I"M nut's?
You tell me seeing your so good at judging!
Let me know!
 
Later
John


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## John Stewart (Sep 2, 2004)

Maybe I broke the cardinal rule again!
Hey Biker did you mean BIG JOHN?
I didn't read all the posts before replying
None the less let me know!
Later
John


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## biker (Sep 2, 2004)

*second tie in point*

Hey John,
I must appoligise (again poor spelling) my response was actually for big john. He's the one who was giving me grief. I thank you for your first response. That's what I was looking for. how you do it, when you do it. In future post's I will respond to the exact name that appears in the post. O.K.

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 2, 2004)

Double tie-ins have their place, but beginners sometimes have a tendency towards relying on them too much. You need to know when to use it.

Ya'll be cool, eh?


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## OutOnaLimb (Sep 2, 2004)

I gotta disagree with ya on this one Brian. I definataly like to double crotch when Im walkin way out from the main trunk of the three. I like the extra stability it offers me. Today I had to do two pretty precarious limb walks on a big Ash and another on a big maple. I didnt double crotch though, you would have been proud of me. Who knows, when I get to be your age here in another 20 years I may be as good as you. 

Kenn:Monkey:


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## rahtreelimbs (Sep 2, 2004)

Most of what BigJohn does is in the big trees!!!


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## NeTree (Sep 2, 2004)

I like the extra stability from having the seond TIP. Since my ear surgeries, my balance is skewed, and it helps me to maintain my sense of position.


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## okietreedude1 (Sep 3, 2004)

knowing the double tie in tech is IMO important. Not that i use it a lot, but I know it so when the intant arises, im ready.

for those tall single trunk trees, a double tie is not generally necessary, however, get into a large American elm, silvermaple, bur oak....it may not be Necessary, but sometimes handy.

I doubled a set this past winter doing line clearance. The groundies were awed that I went up one tree and came down another, 4 trees and 100 feet later.


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## Nathan Wreyford (Sep 3, 2004)

A 2nd TIP is a good method to have in the tool box. It can add greater limbwalking capability at times by better distibuting your weight. It can be more than just a balancing crutch.

I would agree with BJ if what he meant was the most important part of advanced climbing and rigging techniques is not knowing how to use them but *when* to use them.:angel: 

The European champ, Mark Bridge did a demonstration on using double tie in with 2 CS and 2 vt with the middle running through a pulley in the middle. It allowed more access and _safer_ access. You really need a swivel for things like that or you get biners jammed up quicker than you can say "_crossloaded carabiner_"


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## rumination (Sep 3, 2004)

Nathan,

what's a CS?



this is one of those questions I'm gonna feel stupid for asking, isn't it?


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## Nathan Wreyford (Sep 3, 2004)

I was just trying to stick with BJs lingo - Cambium Saver.

I would say FC

Gotta get to work.....


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## Guy Meilleur (Sep 3, 2004)

Just because you use a 2nd rope does not mean you limit your mobility. I'll work a section with one rope , set another, and then slide the first one down a ways. Then work another section with the other rope, then swing over to where I left the end of the first rope hanging.

Back and forth. Rocky i agree that many folks tie in too low, but I always go for the tippy top.

More than two can be justified. I had a sub last year tell me he needed to set five or SIX to do a good job on this tree. I finally concluded that he just wanted to milk the clock and practice flinging.


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 3, 2004)

In most cases the higher you tie-in, the better it is.

Like Guy said, the _tippy top!_


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## ROLLACOSTA (Sep 3, 2004)

surely any climber whos any good ties in twice on a regular basis i do and so does most if not all the climbers i have worked with


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## blue (Sep 3, 2004)

rolla,
empty your mailbox


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## BigJohn (Sep 3, 2004)

I'm not trying to criticize. I'm just being honest. I've been where you are. I've done it and got beyond it. Pick a good tie in point, choose good pathes, keep a straight rope angle, if you have to move your tie in point, think ahead so maybe you can move your TIP and still be able to keep your old one. There is no sense to be tied in twice for balance. Balance doesn't come from a rope it comes from your semi-circular canal in your inner ear and haveing enough strength and stamina. You can't get this if your not practiceing it. You can't have balance if you think about it. I too hate pole saws and pole clips. I get hell all the time cause mine are usually dull and rusty. I don't use them so I have no idea if they are sharp. I don't climb baby trees unless trees over 90 and less then 115 are babies. If you need stability remember the three point stance. One foot and a knee and maybe an elbow or even your head or shoulder. Three points of contact will help. Whats the difference between walking around the top of a dog wood with no saddle and handsaw or walking around the top of a 100 foot oak. The top is just a bunch of little dog wood trees. It's just gonna hurt a little more if you fall and we know that so our balance has a tendency to go out the window. 

I'm not trying to give any sh1t. I'm just trying to help everyone understand that climbing isn't techniques and cool gear. Wouldn't it be great to climb like a squirrel? They never use a second TIP. You can do it too. I'm just saying stop using it build up your balance and strength and you'll be glad you did.


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## blue (Sep 3, 2004)

BIG JOHN,
well sai ,you took the words straight out of my mouth


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## wct4life (Sep 3, 2004)

John, I use a second TIP all the time. Because you can't work a live oak around these parts any other way. 

When you dealing with trees that have a 150' dripline span and many leaders that rarely reach 65' there's no choice. There rarely 
are any LO's that can be worked from one TIP. Those that can are usually babies.


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 3, 2004)

I don't tie in twice for balance, I do it when the original TIP won't work as well as a new temporary TIP, and I want to _keep_ my original TIP.
And yea, live oaks require new TIP all the time. Sometimes when I'm in the top of a monster, I'll set one or two more climb lines in different quadrants of the tree to save time and energy.
When I limb walk, it's one rope. Two would get in the way.


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## wct4life (Sep 3, 2004)

> When I limb walk, it's one rope. Two would get in the way



Here, Here!


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## roachy (Sep 3, 2004)

Let me see ,One or two hmmmmm.I would say really it is situation dependent.I prune large spready trees constantly and would give this advice ,pick a tie in point that will handle most of your work and exhaust it .then go back up and pick another that will finish the job giving you all the comfort for the task.I find using two setups at one time very cumbersum.If I find myself in a situation wher it may be usefull to re tie I will use my tail and unhook my first system attatch it around the stem ,work off my tail and then return to the main tie in point.I will also use redirects of various types if necassarry.Two climbers in the tree is the best option and often eliminates all of this.(pruning only)
I would also add do what you are comfortable with learn what you can to increase your comfort levels .what may be good for some may not be for others.


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## Guy Meilleur (Sep 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by roachy _
> * do what you are comfortable with learn what you can to increase your comfort levels .what may be good for some may not be for others. *


So, you mean, it makes no sense to dis others for doing it a different way, expecially when they're working with different types of trees?

Makes sense to me. I'd like to see someone trim one of our 100' wide willow oaks with one tie-in and no polesaw. Come to think of it, I DID see that last week when NickfromWI pruned one with me. Learned a few tricks, but he did call 3 times for a polesaw tie-on.


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## jkrueger (Sep 3, 2004)

*Hey thanks!*

Jim and Big John,

Thanks for the on time 'push'. Had a very spreading Chestnut today and always push myself. Had a very long limb walk, well for me, and used the 'super' lanyard. John will laugh at this. He parted to me a piece of hi-vi about 18ft., well I made it into a lanyard with the 'vt/kunt'. and used it instead of a redirect. What was nice for this senior was I didn't have to trace back through a redirect, just uncliped and snaped it back from my staring point.

Ahhh, tomorrow I have a tree the size that Big John likes, a very high, 95+ft, Black Walnut. It has braches all over the place. The drip line is prbably as big as the tree is high. OK, I'll plan a first TIP and no pole saw. Gez, it makes me excited.

Jack


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 3, 2004)

I just use my tail as a super-long lanyard.


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## murphy4trees (Sep 3, 2004)

I have worked enough with Jon to know his work and his personality well enough to say with certainty... He is not criticizing or "giving you a hard time".... He's encouraging all of us to reach outside our comfort zone and bump our climbing up to the next level... He's done that for me repeatedly... and if I ever get into shape again look out.... Here I come.... 
It's challenging giving and receiving that type of encouragement from a monitor screen... Jack made the effort to get togother and climb with Jon... Anyone here who doesn't believe or understand or like what Jon or Roachy is saying would do very well to gettogether and at least work the ground for a day with them... I actually have a lot of video of Jon working a tree... maybe edit that up and we can buy some bergers with the profit!

On a side note:
My in laws are gonna make it on America's funniest home videos this fall... I set up a zip line with a haul back in the back yard and when the dad was zipping, the line wraped around his 11 year old's ankle and the kid went flying feet first... Once I realized the kid wasn't hurt I was trying not to laugh cause the mic was picking me up...

PS still haven't got to see you climb Roachy.... Maybe we could do a day this fall??


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## arboromega (Sep 3, 2004)

i will lean toward the climbers who rarely or not at all use the 2nd point. i almost never use it anymore. when i started climbing i used a 2nd point quite often. if it is a big tree i carry a couple loop runners and my 10' lanyard. you can redirect your original tie in point with a limb crotch or the loop runner quite easily. but do what you are comfortable with and keep it fun.


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## Ax-man (Sep 6, 2004)

I don't use a second tie in very much, using an occasional redirect along with a DEDA lanyard there is really no need for a second tie in.

When and if the need comes along for a second tie in, is there a different method that can be used other than the tradititional way of doing it?? Pulling all that rope to the end and tieing a bowline with a long tail seems to be such a waste of time and energy. 

Larry


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## BigJohn (Sep 6, 2004)

Talk to Ken. He has some video. Maybe he could post some. I would if I knew how. I am not that computer savy. What is your email mike I could send you some and you could edit it.


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## roachy (Sep 8, 2004)

Today I just found a good reason one might have two tie in points .I had to prune a huge willow oak in the rain and that gave me a few slippery moments.I still did,nt tie in twice but could have easily.
To answer the next question "why prune in the rain you idiot" I would say good question but my employer didnt think it was a big deal ,Of course not


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## murphy4trees (Sep 8, 2004)

Ya... I gotta hook up the mini DV player etc...


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## BigJohn (Sep 8, 2004)

Oh of course, now how would I have known that a double tie in would be good in the rain? I prefer not to climb in the rain and if I do I am usually pretty pissed so I don't see a reason to go out on the ends and I can't see that far with water drops and fog on the glasses. It all looks good to me. Today in the rain I got to clean up large fallen ash tree that took out a hickory and poplar on the way down and township decide to help they would bulldoze it up with some dirt. We got it done and I didn't get too dirty and I got in early.


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## murphy4trees (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't like getting the climbing gear all dirty and wet etc... try to avoid working in the rain...


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## BigJohn (Sep 8, 2004)

Me too. I know this guy who really tries to get me to work after work when there is threat of rain. Hmm...

I don't have the time at night to go washing and drying ropes just to dirty them again the next day. I don't even have time to pack a lunch.


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## murphy4trees (Sep 8, 2004)

What's wrong with working under a threat of rain?

Guess what.... if there is a threat of rain it means.... it ain't raining!!! Are you gonna make this guy beg to get a tree or two pruned? Where is your heart?


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 8, 2004)

I don't work in the rain unless it's an emergency, and I rarely do those.
If I'm wearing spurs, I'll perserve as best as possible. But if I'm trimming, as soon as it gets slick I hasta la vista it, baby.


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## jkrueger (Sep 8, 2004)

Aghhh, use water rescue rope. No big deal. Don't be a sissy.


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## BigJohn (Sep 8, 2004)

No begging just talk numbers. The way to mans heart isn't just through his stomach. This guy isn't going to get rained out just to have to drive an hour home.


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## jkrueger (Sep 8, 2004)

Sorry to be on topic for a change, and isn't the double TIP also considered a safty>:angel:


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## OutOnaLimb (Sep 8, 2004)

I disagree with ya there Rock. I used to double croutch like crazy, but since my climbing has progressed I doing a lot more walking out on one line, It is a good technique for new climbers just starting to feel the ropes. 

Kenn


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## OutOnaLimb (Sep 8, 2004)

Im not saying we disagree, Im just saying that I used to do a lot of that when I was a less experienced climber. I cant remember the last time I double crotched. I used to do it a lot, and yes it does take a little extra time. But that was the only way I felt comfortable at the time walkin out on some of those big leaders. Maybe my Cajones have gotten a little bigger. But its still a good thing for a Newbie to know. Every thing is progressive Amigo.

Kenn


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## rahtreelimbs (Sep 8, 2004)

I never learned to double crotch. Probably better that way!


i think that trying to teach a newbie to double crotch might be too much of a good thing.........so to speak. They have enough to deal with, let alone 2 lifeline TIP's.


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## Nathan Wreyford (Sep 9, 2004)

I have used a double tie in once, maybe twice in the last year. I think the issues come when you use it as a daily crutch. Then it is time to explore other techniques.

Rain Yeah, it bites but this is Germany and I wouldn't work some months if I were afraid of rain. It does slow productivity and we try to save special jobs (fellings,etc) for rain days.

If I drive an hour to the job site, some work is going to get done.

Beech trees in the rain can be a PITA (double tie in  )


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## Gopher (Sep 9, 2004)

*Go high and think about SRT*

I have been using SRT for about 6 months now, and while I may use my flip line when I am cutting, I find the 2nd tie-in usually not needed. 

I, however will have the flip around something when the chain saw is running. One can never rule out the possibility of a mistake.

I am no spring chicken (or young Gopher, for that matter, but if you are open minded, give SRT a look. It is not the fastest way up a tree, but it is easy on the body, and I believe time saving once in the tree, one tie in or not.

Over.

Gopher


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## rumination (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorry to derail the thread but I have an SRT question since Gopher brought it up: 

It is possible to work off a single line with only a friction hitch or are ascenders and descenders necessary to be safe and efficient with SRT?


Thanks.


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2004)

I've been working on SRT for a long time now. You'll have to experiment to find a hitch combination that works for you. Getting the perfect hitch is harder on SRT because all of your load is on the hitch.

Once again, I can't understand all of the bravado laid out here. Is it some kind of badge of dishonor to use a double tie in? Using the right technique at the right time is the sign of a skilled climber. Having an open mind will make an ordinary climber great. 

Tom


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 9, 2004)

A double tie-in is great, when it's needed.

And it's most excellent for when it's time to take a break.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 9, 2004)

No pic to go along with the post, Butch? Everything going alright? Do you need some pizza from Derek?


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## biker (Sep 11, 2004)

*double tie in point*

Wow,
I appreciate everyones input and opinions, especially Big Johns second response, explaining that he wasn't trying to give me sh...grief. Thanks John.
Understand that I don't use this technique every day, or every week, or even every month. I use it once in a while when I feel the need arrises. Not as a crutch but as a method to help me be more effecient. I use loop runners often and I constantly change crotches as the particular tree dictates. I've never used a second line but only the tail end of my primary lifeline and allways as a temporary stability point. I consider tying in twice as an advanced technique, not something that new climbers should be trying.
Was my original post ever answered? If you are going to tie in to a second point do you carry a second tail or do you tie in directly to your saddle with two half hitches and a taught line hitch, or perhaps a Blakes hitch. Or whatever the case may be.
For all you naysayers who are against a double tie in point just go on and read the next post.

Not always smart, but always a smartass

T


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## Joe (Sep 11, 2004)

.


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## BigJohn (Sep 11, 2004)

As I said I'm not a big fan of using my tail. On the other hand I don't anything wrong with haveing two climbing lines in the tree. Work off of one for awhile and when you get to the other side pull a second one up or already have one installed and work off that for awhile and then switch back. I just don't like haveing two tied to me at the same time. I can remember climbing an elm tree just a few years back thinking it was huge tree. I pruned the tree with another climber who had been around for years maybe 20 somewhat old school. We had 5 lines in the tree and we didn't get the whole tree done in a day. Today I could do the same tree myself in less than a day with one rope. This is the level of climbing I am talking about. You have to see to believe. As long as we're climbing we are never the best we will be.


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## jkrueger (Sep 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by BigJohn _
> * [deletion] ... As long as we're climbing we are never the best we will be. *



I don't follow?

Jack


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## BigJohn (Sep 11, 2004)

It means you don't know everything. Your always learning as long as your climbin and getting even better.


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## murphy4trees (Sep 11, 2004)

How about this as another way of putting it
"When we get out of the glass bottles of our own egos"
That happens to be the first line of a rather obscure poem...
I think it fits here pretty well!


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## arboromega (Sep 12, 2004)

biker,
to your original question...no i dont carry any extra split tail, tennex, etc. to double crotch. just the tail of my rope with a blakes in it if i do use it. IMO i would equate carrying and extra split tail or something like it to carrying speedline gear into the tree just in case i need it. like speed lining, the dble crotch is rare use. if you do use a 2nd TIP often just have your groundie tie on an extra split tail to the end of you line before you pull it up.


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## biker (Sep 13, 2004)

I don't see a whole lot of simalarities (sp) in carrying a whole bag of speedlie equipment. slings, biners and the whole 9 yards. As opposed to a piece of tenex and a biner or two. I'm really surprised at all the negative responses this thread has produced. In my opinion it's really a simple technique and a simple procedure and not a crutch for those of you who lean tword that way of thinking...

T


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## murphy4trees (Sep 13, 2004)

Biker,
It all depends on your level of experience... unfortunately few have ever witnessed what is possible in world class tree climbing... until you see, it's hard to even imagine... 
Thaty said... each of us have to do what works for us... no shame in that ... do right by the trees and how you do it is up to you...


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## BigJohn (Sep 13, 2004)

They can see just take a look the mpeg thread.


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## MasterBlaster (Sep 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *... what is possible in world class tree climbing...*



I'm merely a master of my parish, maybe a few others.

World Class!

_WOW!!!_


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## murphy4trees (Sep 13, 2004)

Sounds like you migh have to get out of your parish if you want to see some for yourself.. videos may be cool and all, but watching it on a small screen is a long way of from running ropes or otherwisw working the ground for a TRUE master..


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## Joe (Sep 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by biker _
> *I don't see a whole lot of simalarities (sp)*



similarities



> *...in carrying a whole bag of speedlie equipment. slings, biners and the whole 9 yards. As opposed to a piece of tenex and a biner or two.*



Agreed. A couple of slings and biners improves efficiency. 



> *I'm really surprised at all the negative responses this thread has produced.*



I'm wandering about it myself. 



> *In my opinion it's really a simple technique and a simple procedure and not a crutch for those of you who lean tword that way of thinking...
> 
> T *



Agreed.

Joe


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