# Professionals?



## flushcut (Jan 28, 2011)

I would like to post this to all of AS but there is no forum that i know of that does that. I was wondering how many professionals are on this site as in real tree guys? If you are a logger or arborist chime in.


----------



## ducaticorse (Jan 28, 2011)

flushcut said:


> I would like to post this to all of AS but there is no forum that i know of that does that. I was wondering how many professionals are on this site as in real tree guys? If you are a logger or arborist chime in.


 
I am a "pro" as in this business is my sole source of income (commercial snow and ice management in winter), it's what I plan on retiring from etc. Have I just scratched the surface as far as practical experience? YES. Am I a certified arborist? NO. Have I a lot more to learn? Yes. Do I put every last bit of money, time and effort into making my business better? YES.....


----------



## BCbound (Jan 28, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> I am a "pro" as in this business is my sole source of income, it's what I plan on retiring from etc. Have I just scratched the surface as far as practical experience? Yes. Have I a lot more to learn? Yes. Do I put every last bit of money, time and effort into making my business better? YES.....


 
I'll second that.


----------



## flushcut (Jan 28, 2011)

I think we are all learning.


----------



## TreEmergencyB (Jan 28, 2011)

Arborist...Work Full time for a company, try to do family and friends on the weekends, contract climb for 3 companies also. Some day if i can get the money i want to start my own. 24 years old got some time to go This is definitely my career


----------



## tomtrees58 (Jan 28, 2011)

arborist 38 years now


----------



## bluesportster02 (Jan 28, 2011)

does fire wooder count


----------



## flushcut (Jan 28, 2011)

bluesportster02 said:


> does fire wooder count


 
If you do it for a living.


----------



## PinnaclePete (Jan 28, 2011)

flushcut said:


> I would like to post this to all of AS but there is no forum that i know of that does that. I was wondering how many professionals are on this site as in real tree guys? If you are a logger or arborist chime in.


 
*Start a Poll* - A. Arborist, B. Logging, C. Firewood, D. Old fart sittin around with nothin else to do.

BTW, I'm an A with minors in B, C and D


----------



## treemandan (Jan 28, 2011)

:knife: First of all: What's with this Swiss Army knife smiley?
And secondly to answer the other question, well, what do I have to say?


----------



## ducaticorse (Jan 28, 2011)

treemandan said:


> :knife: First of all: What's with this Swiss Army knife smiley?
> And secondly to answer the other question, well, what do I have to say?


 
How bout tellin me what that is a pic of in your avatar?


----------



## justme23005 (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm not a professional... i just aimlessly wander around and end up in a bucket with a chainsaw in my hands, every day..


----------



## senones (Jan 28, 2011)

<--------- Lifer. Full time Commercial Arborist/ Tree Climber.


----------



## JNGWC&Tree (Jan 28, 2011)

Yes this is my main economic thrust in life and hence includes numerous hours and investment in time, equipment, insurance, customer satisfaction, professional affiliations, and most importantly continuing education. I find the return on investment at times makes you want to cry and other times grin ear to ear, but the hard work is rewarding either way.


----------



## Panama (Jan 28, 2011)

There are MANY professional tree guys (and gals) on here, and lots of guys that think they are pro's. The more you read, the more you realize who is what. Some Arborists, like myself, have "been there, done that" with the Arborist Cert. but have chosen to move on. Everyone has their own opinion as to the qualifications required to be considered a PRO. I own my own company, my own equipment and have the required licenses and Insurance, but that in itself does not make me a Pro (Professional) in my opinion. 
You would think that all that matters is whether or not my current, potential and future customers consider me and my guys professional or not, but sadly, at the end of the day, most homeowners only care about the lowest bid.


----------



## Yoopermike (Jan 28, 2011)

Im more a weekend cookie/firewood cutter and resident saw mechanic/sharpener and saw collector/fanatic! and im a PRO at CAD!


----------



## ducaticorse (Jan 28, 2011)

Panama said:


> There are MANY professional tree guys (and gals) on here, and lots of guys that think they are pro's. The more you read, the more you realize who is what. Some Arborists, like myself, have "been there, done that" with the Arborist Cert. but have chosen to move on. Everyone has their own opinion as to the qualifications required to be considered a PRO. I own my own company, my own equipment and have the required licenses and Insurance, but that in itself does not make me a Pro (Professional) in my opinion.
> You would think that all that matters is whether or not my current, potential and future customers consider me and my guys professional or not, but sadly, at the end of the day, most homeowners only care about the lowest bid.


 
Well said


----------



## beowulf343 (Jan 28, 2011)

Been paid to climb trees for almost sixteen years now.


----------



## beastmaster (Jan 28, 2011)

tomtrees58 said:


> arborist 38 years now


 
Boy Tomtrees you got me beat by ten years and I am old as dirt.

I've been climbing trees for 27 years. I was a cert. arborist. and I'm slowly working on my degree in horticulture, and I am constantly learning and improving( even as i get older and slower.Ha) I like to think I am a professional. This profession has sent my kids to college and is paying my mortgage. I hope to get my masters and spent my golden years in the green industry but not working so hard.


----------



## Rickytree (Jan 28, 2011)

Panama said:


> There are MANY professional tree guys (and gals) on here, and lots of guys that think they are pro's. The more you read, the more you realize who is what. Some Arborists, like myself, have "been there, done that" with the Arborist Cert. but have chosen to move on. Everyone has their own opinion as to the qualifications required to be considered a PRO. I own my own company, my own equipment and have the required licenses and Insurance, but that in itself does not make me a Pro (Professional) in my opinion.
> You would think that all that matters is whether or not my current, potential and future customers consider me and my guys professional or not, but sadly, at the end of the day, most homeowners only care about the lowest bid.



I agree but I do believe if you are consistantly doing a job with fine work and with happy customers, you are a professional in that particular area. I am a Certified Arborist of Ontario Canada for 10 years.


----------



## Nailsbeats (Jan 28, 2011)

I am a pro arborist, logger, and fabricator. I enjoy all of it too.


----------



## ckliff (Jan 28, 2011)

arborist 9yr, second career @ 50y/o now.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 28, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> I'm not a professional... i just aimlessly wander around and end up in a bucket with a chainsaw in my hands, every day..


 
Well at least you are honest


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 28, 2011)

Panama said:


> There are MANY professional tree guys (and gals) on here, and lots of guys that think they are pro's. The more you read, the more you realize who is what. Some Arborists, like myself, have "been there, done that" with the Arborist Cert. but have chosen to move on. Everyone has their own opinion as to the qualifications required to be considered a PRO. I own my own company, my own equipment and have the required licenses and Insurance, but that in itself does not make me a Pro (Professional) in my opinion.
> You would think that all that matters is whether or not my current, potential and future customers consider me and my guys professional or not, but sadly, at the end of the day, most homeowners only care about the lowest bid.


 
Lot to truth there!!


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 28, 2011)

Yep.. over 30 years.


----------



## indiansprings (Jan 28, 2011)

Retired, I run the family firewood business from Sept/Mar over 300 cord sold a year.
Produce alfalfa and orchard grass hay during spring and the summer.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Jan 28, 2011)

Registered Professional Forester and Certified Arborist.


----------



## logging22 (Jan 28, 2011)

Pro logger 15 yrs and counting. Long live the logger.


----------



## TreeAce (Jan 28, 2011)

When I was a youngster the old timer i was workn with told me "I hope you like tree work alot cuz u will b doin it along time" I said "wtf r u talkn about? thats crazy!" and he said "ya,almost as crazy as the look in your eye when we r doin a big take down". HHhhmmmm....well , I did try swinging a hammer a few times and I am a half decent carpenter but I always came back to tree work. Just like the old timer said I would. Now I have my own little gig goin and enjoying it for the most part. I make almost my entire income from tree work so I guess that makes me a pro, atleast by definition.

R.I.P. John Bradstock


----------



## Rftreeman (Jan 28, 2011)

what's a professional...


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 29, 2011)

Rftreeman said:


> what's a professional...


 
Well, one might think that to be a professional you need a profession.
But by defination that isn't the case 

Looking up defination of profession:

To be called a professoin it needs to be:
1. a full-time occupation;
2. have formal training schools;
3. have formal association 
4. have professional ethics 
5. have State licensing laws 


So by that term.. does not work 

So.. Lets look up professional :

In western nations, such as the United States, the term commonly describes highly educated, mostly salaried workers, who enjoy considerable work autonomy, a comfortable salary, and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work.
Less technically, it may also refer to a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.
Because of the personal and confidential nature of many professional services and thus the necessity to place a great deal of trust in them, most professionals are held up to strict ethical and moral regulations.

1.A professional is a person that is paid for what they do. Qualifications have little to do with being a professional as the world's "oldest profession" is strictly a monetary gain career. An amateur maybe more qualified than a professional but they are not paid, thus they are an amateur.

2.Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.

3.Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.

4.High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavors.

5. A high standard of professional ethics, behavior and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.

6. Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.

7.Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return[6]

8.Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Special respect should be demonstrated to special people and interns. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.

9.Professional Attire – Including but not limited to, dress slacks, long-sleeve button down shirt, tie, dress shoes, etc.

10.professional is an expert who is master in a specific field.

Then we look down further..

Trades
In narrow usage, not all expertise is considered a profession. Although sometimes referred to as professions, such occupations as skilled construction work are more generally thought of as trades or crafts. The completion of an apprenticeship is generally associated with skilled labor or trades such as carpenter, electrician, plumber, bricklayer and other similar occupations. A related (though not always valid) distinction would be that a professional does mainly mental or administrative work, as opposed to engaging in physical work. Many companies include the word professional in their store name to signify the quality of their workmanship or service.


Oh well I give up 

Any professionals in the group!!


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jan 29, 2011)

Going on 34 years.
ISA Cert. WE-7624
TCIA CTSP #519
Jeff :shock:


----------



## Rftreeman (Jan 29, 2011)

well I guess I'm a professional....


----------



## treemandan (Jan 29, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> I am a pro arborist, logger, and fabricator. I enjoy all of it too.


 
Have you ever tried your hand at fishing?


----------



## treemandan (Jan 29, 2011)

tomtrees58 said:


> arborist 38 years now


 
Yeah but what about the other 240?


----------



## capetrees (Jan 29, 2011)

As I've said before, I would love to do this full time. Been cutting trees down since I got hold of my old mans saw when I was 12, climbing trees since I could walk and running a mostly weekend tree business for myself for 6 years. As also mentioned, I'm not an arborist but would like to be once I find the time to take the classes and tests. Professional? I try to act professional when I do a job and I try to stay within my limits. Most of the lanscapers around here take down trees themselves but if they have a tough one or a tricky one, they all call me or refer the owners to me. 

Honestly, what makes a person a professional?


----------



## Slvrmple72 (Jan 29, 2011)

Panama said:


> There are MANY professional tree guys (and gals) on here, and lots of guys that think they are pro's. The more you read, the more you realize who is what. Some Arborists, like myself, have "been there, done that" with the Arborist Cert. but have chosen to move on. Everyone has their own opinion as to the qualifications required to be considered a PRO. I own my own company, my own equipment and have the required licenses and Insurance, but that in itself does not make me a Pro (Professional) in my opinion.
> You would think that all that matters is whether or not my current, potential and future customers consider me and my guys professional or not, but sadly, at the end of the day, most homeowners only care about the lowest bid.



Rep sent your way Panama! Your last 8 words hit the nail square on its head!


----------



## Slvrmple72 (Jan 29, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Yeah but what about the other 240?



Dang it Ben! You have any idea how bad Mt. Dew burns when it squirts outta your nose!:silly:

8 years at this, some good some bad, still learning to be professional, still learning to pay the bills on charity but thankful for the trees: they provide my family clean air, shade, heat from winter's chill, recreation, and all the outer cambium my dogs need...


----------



## THE BUFFALO (Jan 30, 2011)

yeah im climbing now,been in the industry since i was 18,23 years ago,been on all the machines ie;harvesters ,forwarders,ponsee of course,now im back on the chainsaw and it feels good againi feel alive again)


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 30, 2011)

I've been thinking of calling myself a Landscape Biologist as soon as I get my degree. I thought it would be a BS title to go along with my BS degree, but I Googled it ant there are faculty positions at state uni's with the title....


----------



## jefflovstrom (Jan 30, 2011)

You sound like an old ranting, semi-conscience, and depressing dude!
Jeff


----------



## alpineman (Jan 30, 2011)

What was this thread started for???....for all of us to give ourselves a little pat on the back if we think we can make the "pro" cut? How about you have three or four of your best arborist pals evaluate you as to whether or not you are a pro!! You might get a different answer than what your head(or your balls) are telling you. A pro in most any other arena is based on having the necessary skills to enter into the "pro" classification. Its not about what you think about yourself, its about how other people evaluate you. Our we talking about running a business or just pure skills in the tree? If it takes me 2 hours to trim a tree that it takes another "pro" 4 hours, am I a better climber.....?????


----------



## Vendetti (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't concider my self a pro yet, I'm still working on my 1B hoisting and ISA climber cert. I've been doing the trees, landscape and snow removal at a mager university for 16 years. Climbing and rigging for 12 year. I still have so much more to learn. With all this snow, another 20" comming Tue. Wed.View attachment 170407
I do consider my self a pro snow mover.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 30, 2011)

alpineman said:


> A pro in most any other arena is based on having the necessary skills to enter into the "pro" classification. Its not about what you think about yourself, its about how other people evaluate you.




True .. :agree2:



alpineman said:


> Our we talking about running a business or just pure skills in the tree?



Well, depending on what you do and who you are.. both may be equally important. Forum is titled "Commercial Tree Care and Climbing". The "Commercial Tree Care" can well encompass the business end.. the "Climbing" part as to skills in the tree. (But in theory a climber may still be a hack.. so not just climbing skills.. but overall arborist skills)



alpineman said:


> If it takes me 2 hours to trim a tree that it takes another "pro" 4 hours, am I a better climber.....?????


 
Or.. does that mean they do a better job  
You see it can go both ways.. and like you said it takes other to evaluate you and determine if you are a professional.
Which is were 3rd party accreditation like TCIA is good, IMHO.. while I am not yet accrediated, we are beginning to work that process this year.


----------



## Vendetti (Jan 30, 2011)

You can be certified and a hack. Just the other year the certified tree worden in the city of Boston topped and over limbed most of the trees in the city in prep for a ruff winter. It was bad enough that it made the news.


----------



## flushcut (Jan 30, 2011)

WOW! It is amazing how these threads evolve. I have been out of town for a few days and this is good stuff. The reason I ask is Treeslayer and I were talking about just how many actual tree guys were on AS. I was guessing maybe 8% or less and I am not talking certified or not, but guys that do good work and have a good reputation in the field.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 30, 2011)

flushcut said:


> I was guessing maybe 8% or less and I am not talking certified or not, but guys that do good work and have a good reputation in the field.



Tough question indeed...

Easy.. or fairly so.. to find guys who do tree work full time. Now that of course could be broken down a bit (quite a bit).. as to what you call a tree guy 

But.. then you ask good work and good reputation.. whole different story indeed.. and one that is difficult to get to bottom of. 8% may even be high  Member list shows 54,000 .. that would be close to 4,500 in total .. Would guess at maybe no more than 1/10th that.. but I could be wrong.


----------



## flushcut (Jan 30, 2011)

TreeClimber57 you may indeed be right.


----------



## tomtrees58 (Jan 30, 2011)

treemandan said:


> Yeah but what about the other 240?


 
well wen you were in diapers i was climbing




here's one from 1976


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 31, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> You sound like an old ranting, semi-conscience, and depressing dude!
> Jeff


 
Well I got nine years in the USMC, those are like dog year, so I am relatively older then my Dad.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Jan 31, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Well I got nine years in the USMC, those are like dog year, so I am relatively older then my Dad.


 
Man, I am screwed!

This weekend we removed a vary large maple. The next door niehboor is our local big wig news anchor. We took a break and he and his wife came out. He proceeded to tell us how he was amazed at our work. "Now these guys are pro's buddy" he tells his boy as he comes out. Then he proceeds to tell me this horror story that he had in his yard this fall. Thought this would apply to this thread.

"I had these guys take out a tree that was as big as that one over there, right behind the house, they had removed all the easy stuff and left everything over the house, the tree had a bad lean at the house, they started cutting the base,from the backside, had the tree tied off to that little crab apple over there. (Crab was about 4-5" dia) the rope was all frayed and u could see the inner stuff,they cut about 1/2 way thru and the saw broke. they left, said they will be back in the am. We did not sleep that night. When they came back, they called me out and said they need to talk to me, then proceeded to tell me that they may hit the house, just wanted to warn me! They tied it to a dump truck and pulled it over from the front, spinning the tires in the yard creating huge ruts, the tree went down between the houses, raking both houses with all the brush, from pulling it over. They got the dump stuck in my front yard, it stayed for 3 days until they could get it out! That's what I get for trying to save a buck" 

Now there was more he said, but you get the idea, didn't want to right a novel, and that is not verbatim, but close. I didn't ask, but assumed that they had damage as it looked like they where having the siding and roof repaired.
He now is going to get one of the reporters (Erika is HOT!) to do a follow up story she did this summer on tree hacks in our area, using us as an example of professionals and what he witnessed while watching us, then he is going to tell them what happened to him, this makes me nervous as we all know the media can screw things up. If it comes out right, should be huge for me.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 31, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> If it comes out right, should be huge for me.



If it comes out right, it may be good for all the professional -- legitimate tree services guys in the area. 

But..then again how does HO tell between a good one and a bad one.. 

The bad ones lie about their experience, insurance, equipment, etc.. So tough to tell them apart.

Right now in our area, asking for a cert of insurance is a fairly decent way to tell as the hacks for the most part can not provide. But if everybody started doing that then the hacks would begin to do someting right (although if they only do it as a sideline then may not cost justify to do it).


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 31, 2011)

tomtrees58 said:


> well wen you were in diapers i was climbing
> 
> 
> 
> here's one from 1976


 
Love the colors of the old pics.. have to see if I can dig something up from that era.. I was climbing in '76 as well. 

My old pics are all on slides so have to figure out how to scan them.

Should be able to find some of fairly large crews and some heavy equipment as well. Lots of fun back then, lots to learn (at least for me as I was pretty green then)..


----------



## alpineman (Jan 31, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> Man, I am screwed!
> 
> This weekend we removed a vary large maple. The next door niehboor is our local big wig news anchor. We took a break and he and his wife came out. He proceeded to tell us how he was amazed at our work. "Now these guys are pro's buddy" he tells his boy as he comes out. Then he proceeds to tell me this horror story that he had in his yard this fall. Thought this would apply to this thread.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you know what you are doing and you present yourself well to clients, but homeowners are typically a bad judge of professionalism. Good luck on the media story. Make sure you spend some money on some nice shirt and sweatshirts for all the guys!!


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 31, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Love the colors of the old pics.. have to see if I can dig something up from that era.. I was climbing in '76 as well.
> 
> My old pics are all on slides so have to figure out how to scan them.
> 
> Should be able to find some of fairly large crews and some heavy equipment as well. Lots of fun back then, lots to learn (at least for me as I was pretty green then)..


 
I climbed in the 60's but not professional lol. I got buzzed indirect from power through a limb when I was six:jawdrop: I fell out of a mimosa landing flat on my back at 9 and fell at 5 too. I guess I was born to climb and never fell once learning the ropes lol.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 31, 2011)

alpineman said:


> but homeowners are typically a bad judge of professionalism.



A statement with more truth never been said !

If otherwise, many hacks would be putting their saws on shelf..


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 31, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I climbed in the 60's but not professional lol. I got buzzed indirect from power through a limb when I was six:jawdrop: I fell out of a mimosa landing flat on my back at 9 and fell at 5 too. I guess I was born to climb and never fell once learning the ropes lol.


 
Yeah.. guess I could make same claim. Had a tree house on our farm used to go up.. although my dad had put steps on tree so that hardly counts 

But other big trees close to house climbed a lot, and a few out in bush. Ones close to house were mostly big pines and spruce. Sticky, messy, dirty trees on hands and clothes (my mother must have loved it  ). But my brother and I had lots of fun.. limbs on some of those so close together and branches so thick.. be difficult to fall far  Could bounce your way to ground though..


----------



## treedog54 (Jan 31, 2011)

*Trees*

Started climbing 1969 .Line clearance,ATE,Nelson,Wright(by far the most employee concious IMO)Partners in own biz now.Lifer.


----------



## tomtrees58 (Jan 31, 2011)

heres a pic from 1973 look at my new homelite ez saw


----------



## THE BUFFALO (Jan 31, 2011)

climbed up a big yew tree when i was a kid to avoid going to the local town with grandparents,had a telling off,but you never forget things like that, now im getting payed to do it,can fault it


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 31, 2011)

I climbed semi pro in 82 and started full timey in 83 but never with a ditty bag, btw the photo reminds me of a goob I once knew:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 31, 2011)

Did my first for-hire take down in '87 (while still in the USMC) for an officer who knew I had some schooling, and had seen my gaffing up trees to set up antennas and run comm-wire. 

Made a little money off and on till I got out, then did tree work for a few different companies as stop-gap employment after getting out. I lied to myself that I did not want to do this for the rest of my life, thought office jobs were it. 

Fell into a groundie job with in 93-94 for a local branch of TG-CL and never looked back, I was running the crew by the summer, and the little division by winter. 

Stayed there till the end of the decade, until I finally came to the conclusion that they were making up their own "science" to justify their business model. Then I went solo in 99. Learned a little here and there until I am at the point now where I realize I do not really know that much; and most people know even less.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 31, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Did my first for-hire take down in '87 (while still in the USMC) for an officer who knew I had some schooling, and had seen my gaffing up trees to set up antennas and run comm-wire.
> 
> Made a little money off and on till I got out, then did tree work for a few different companies as stop-gap employment after getting out. I lied to myself that I did not want to do this for the rest of my life, thought office jobs were it.
> 
> ...


 
You keep telling yourself that but we know you know allot. I do understand the humble attitude and do also understand the amount of study required to master every aspect of arboriculture. It makes you become your worst critic but in no way do you not know much JPS.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Jan 31, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I am at the point now where I realize I do not really know that much; and most people know even less.


 
Ain't that the truth! Older you get.. or the longer you do this the less you know it seems


----------



## TreeAce (Jan 31, 2011)

I read somwhere once that Einstien was quoted as saying "The more I learn the less I know". Not sayn he "invented" it but he musta believed it. Call me an online brown noser or whatever but I can say that I tend to read any post by JPS carefully and often twice. An open minded person can learn alot from many people around here. But some more than others.


----------



## squad143 (Jan 31, 2011)

This is not my main source of income. Do I consider myself a professional? Yes. Still learning and always will be.


----------



## tree md (Feb 1, 2011)

Self employed climber since 94... Been climbing since 91. This is my sole income and has been for 20 years this year.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

:blush::blush:

Thank you, thankyou verymuch.

I do mean it to sound humble, because it is how I feel about the enormity of the task. It is also what motivates me to do more, even though I do not see a whole lot of profit in the endeavor. Most guys are happy to pick my brain and carry on, which is why I may tend to sound abrupt during some phone calls from members. 

There are a few here who can attest to how much I will open up after even a small check arrives in the mail, though  

FWIW I continue to post here to "keep my knife sharp" so to speak, but I have taken to answering PM's and phone calls with general vagueries and suggestions to search my previous posts.

I am available for consulting gigs, when not in school; and a couple of you have me on retainer. Ask around, I come rather cheap for the results rendered.

Dave B. once put it "I did call you a Fart Smeller, but you are a Smart Feller too!" :Laugh: He paid me pretty darn well, plus two meals a day.


----------



## Job Corps Tree (Feb 1, 2011)

*Professionals*

We need an up to date Poll on this. Last one it was about 1 in 75 or more1 tree guy and 75 of something else. 
I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

Job Corps Tree said:


> I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??


 
I read it as how many of us are professional tree workers, whether it is logger, arbo or other it does not matter. Some of us teach school, some work in saw shops, I think most of us are pro's in that respect.

If you want to break it down, how many catagories are there? Logger, tree cutter, arborist, Cimber, saw shop......


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 1, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I read it as how many of us are professional tree workers, whether it is logger, arbo or other it does not matter. Some of us teach school, some work in saw shops, I think most of us are pro's in that respect.



Well most look at "professional" as somebody getting paid to do the work.

I have an Amateurs Radio License (Ham Operator)... it is called amateur simply because there is no pay for it.. but there are licensing requirements, and regulations. In fact I know at least two individuals who have spent well over $100K on their "hobby". A couple of the otters I know are engineers, one is a medical doctor. Point being, these folks in many cases are dedicated, well trained and in some case better radio operators than some who actually get paid to do it for a living. Reason.. well some who are paid to do it simply view it as a job to pay the bills.. they put in 40 hours a week and go home to what they really love. The amateur radio operators on the other hand take their free time, their own money.. and invest into it.. they in some cases spend more than 40 hours a week at it.. and certainly never end their education and learning.

Point being.. one is doing it to pay the bills and is only as good as they need to be. The other, while not paid for it, strives to better themselves on a daily basis.

Moral of story.. being paid for the job does NOT make you good.. being a so called "professional" .. if doing it full time as a paid job is the criteria does NOT make you good.. it is the love of the work, the desire to better oneself that is what makes you GOOD.. And if you have that.. while you may not be at the top of the list today as far as skills.. you will continue to strive to get better on an ongoing basis.. and will over time become as good as anybody in your field.

The question then is WHY do you do this.. is it to put money on the table.. or because YOU love to do it.. day in and day out.. through thick and thin.. the good days and the crap days.. 

Just my 2 cents


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I do mean it to sound humble, because it is how I feel about the enormity of the task. It is also what motivates me to do more, even though I do not see a whole lot of profit in the endeavor. Most guys are happy to pick my brain and carry on, which is why I may tend to sound abrupt during some phone calls from members.
> 
> There are a few here who can attest to how much I will open up after even a small check arrives in the mail, though


 
Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??

This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need? What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call. You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved. I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?) How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in? I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost? 

Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 1, 2011)

Job Corps Tree said:


> We need an up to date Poll on this. Last one it was about 1 in 75 or more1 tree guy and 75 of something else.
> I was for 20 years but the last 11 years I am Teaching it, Is this realy the same as someone that Climbs as a Job everyday??


 
If you still can do it.. if you know what you teach and are not just a somebody who learned from a book.. then I would say yes 

First of all.. in teaching I would think you do get some hands on.. and secondly.. without teachers we would never bring this profession to a higher level.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need?



Guess it depends on what is being taught, and by whom.

But.. I know that I pay for our education, and it ain't cheap.. Frankly some of it is not more than common sense but covers the legal aspect of the fact that you had formal training..


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

"Formal training" is now a requirement to be a treeman?

This is laughable, so next time i'm looking for a climbing job, i can put down "i paid jps to learn how to order clothes online" and that will make me more attractive to prospective employers? They don't know or care who jps is or what i paid him to do for me.
So i took a day long course from someone about cranes and treework? Do you think that's going to mean more than the fact that i've worked with a crane every day for years?
Listen, being taught is all well and good, but around here, experience is most important. Someone who's been climbing every day for years with no accidents is going to get the job before someone who's been to alot of classes.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> If you still can do it.. if you know what you teach and are not just a somebody who learned from a book.. then I would say yes
> 
> First of all.. in teaching I would think you do get some hands on.. and secondly.. without teachers we would never bring this profession to a higher level.


 
I can vouch for Job corp though he really don't need me to. He knows more about different climbing systems than most I know.


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> But.. I know that I pay for our education, and it ain't cheap.. Frankly some of it is not more than common sense but covers the legal aspect of the fact that you had formal training..



It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet. But leaving that aside, what makes jps's training formal? The fact that you paid for it? 
Is he a licensed or certified teacher? Since it's so important to so many here, is he a ca or a bcma? Is any governing body outside of the couple hundred people that know him even going to recognize his training? I mean i may have to pay 140 to go to treeseer's little event, but at least that is recognized as training by the isa. How is jps's training formal in your book, and how is it going to cover your butt in a legal situation. It's like me saying, "yeah, i went to a weekend seminar put on by bubba down the road." It doesn't mean a whole lot.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??


 Hee hee! you so funny! What got your undies in such a bunch?





> This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need?


I have invested a lot of time and money into putting my knowledge base together




> What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call.



then ignore me :dunno:




> You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved.



So you just took from them and never gave anything back, or were you working for them and learning OJT? I assume so, since you are a young climber. I might not have anything to offer you, since you work for someone else. Maybe I could in a few years when you break off and start your own biz. When I am working with enthusiastic young climbers, it is usually the boss who calls me in to work with them to improve their productivity. 



> I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?)



Ask it in the forum if you want free advice, if I any of us want to answer then we will. Why are you such a cheapskate as to ask someone to coach/mentor you for the love of it? 

Why should anyone answer questions from all and sundry that come out of the blue? Why should the NOT be something for me out of the deal? 

If someone calls me, during dinner or while I am watching TV with my wife and dogs, to ask about a problem they have with a very important client; why should I not expect to act as contracting consultant vs a free knowledge base? 




> How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in?



Why is it such a bad thing for a person who has spent decades improving a wide set of skills, experiance and knowledge, to ask for a fee to pass it on to another for-hire professional? I did not come to the conclusion that I have knowledge of value because I thought it up, but because people have told me that they have improved their operations from what I have said and written. 



> I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost?



My ego is boosted by people saying "thank you, you helped me." I put gas in my tank and food on the table by getting money from other people. Some of my knowledge I got from other people, some through reading, some through experiance. I have spent a lot of time ordering it and making more useful. Maybe it is not useful for you, so what? 



> Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.


 
So you will take a late-night call from a home-owner who is asking for the best way to trim their trees away from the house? Is there any difference between your scenario mine? I do not understand why I should be an altruistic mentor to everyone who asks if part of my business model is consulting to other companies.

As for giving to young climbers...I do that, not as often as I used to. I do not get approached as much, and I usually want to work in my trees or a _pro bono_ job for a little old lady. Many of them shy off at working for free for some reason.

Now, since I put forth a reasoned and and reasonable argument for my position, why don't you tell us why you should not be taken for a pathetic, snot-nosed punk who has gotten a wee bit big for his britches since he has worked under a crane a few times? 

I do give you credit for not always telling us that you are Gods gift to the tree world, but I do not see where you come off being disrespectful to some one who is more knowledgeable and experienced then you. Especially since I cannot recall ever ranting about you in such a manner.

Or should I have flamed in response?


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> So you just took from them and never gave anything back, or were you working for them and learning OJT? I assume so, since you are a young climber. I might not have anything to offer you, since you work for someone else. Maybe I could in a few years when you break off and start your own biz. When I am working with enthusiastic young climbers, it is usually the boss who calls me in to work with them to improve their productivity.



You may be right, i probably did take from them and didn't give anything back. But they offered. I'd have old timers tell me "why don't you come over this weekend and i'll show you a couple things to help you out monday." I'd offer to pay and they'd turn it down. Did you pay everyone who ever taught you something? If i asked one of them something, yeah, they wouldn't drop everything for me, but they'd get back to me and go over it. My problem is it seems nowdays if you ask someone if they can show you the basics of srt or something, they'll ask you for a couple hundred.
As for the "young climber" thing, i've got almost as many years in as you.




John Paul Sanborn said:


> Ask it in the forum if you want free advice, if I any of us want to answer then we will. Why are you such a cheapskate as to ask someone to coach/mentor you for the love of it?



I did have a mentor and i do mentor someone now in treework-no money exchanges hands. Professional courtesy?



John Paul Sanborn said:


> Why is it such a bad thing for a person who has spent decades improving a wide set of skills, experiance and knowledge, to ask for a fee to pass it on to another for-hire professional? I did not come to the conclusion that I have knowledge of value because I thought it up, but because people have told me that they have improved their operations from what I have said and written.



You haven't spent decades in this field. I don't see the guys who have spent decades in the field asking for donations for their advice, although i'd be willing to pay if they asked for it. Maybe that's what gets me about you-you just expect to be paid for the advice. I'm really sorry jps, but you aren't a jerry berenak to me.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> Now, since I put forth a reasoned and and reasonable argument for my position, why don't you tell us why you should not be taken for a pathetic, snot-nosed punk who has gotten a wee bit big for his britches since he has worked under a crane a few times?



If that's the way you feel about me, i'm fine with that. If you are the new mod, feel free to ban me. It just makes me wonder about the direction our field is heading in, when a guy can't get an answer from an experienced man in the field without having to pay for it.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> So you will take a late-night call from a home-owner who is asking for the best way to trim their trees away from the house? Is there any difference between your scenario mine? I do not understand why I should be an altruistic mentor to everyone who asks if part of my business model is consulting to other companies.
> 
> As for giving to young climbers...I do that, not as often as I used to. I do not get approached as much, and I usually want to work in my trees or a _pro bono_ job for a little old lady. Many of them shy off at working for free for some reason.



I'm not talking about homeowners asking for advice, i'm talking about one treeclimber to another. It's not surprising you don't get approached by young climbers, expecting to get paid for the advice.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I do give you credit for not always telling us that you are Gods gift to the tree world, but I do not see where you come off being disrespectful to some one who is more knowledgeable and experienced then you.



And you assume you are more knowledgeable and experienced why?? Because i don't get paid to dispense advice? How is one peer questioning another on the way he does things disrespectful? So you expect to be paid for your advice, i don't think that's a good road to start down in this field, just because i don't agree with you it's disrespectful. Thin skinned.

I guess all i'm saying is, what can you teach me that i can't get from the forty year climber i go to work with every day, for free, or the multi-millionaire tree business owner i see in the office every day, or the bcma that's on staff? Brag on yourself a bit, what makes you the man i need to pay?


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> It doesn't mean a whole lot.



And if it does not then maybe not worth paying for.


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet.



Unfortunately TCIA acreditation is a nice to have.. good stuff (but not mandatory legally).. but formal training helps with insurance and in some cases is a requirement/mandatory (at least here) for workers comp, etc.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Hee hee! you so funny! What got your undies in such a bunch?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I Have not yet needed consultation but rest assured if the right client had a problem and the solution was eluding my knowledge base, I would have no problem paying. It is in no way saying, I don't know what I am doing, it sometimes is, two heads are better than one thing. I unfortunately don't have the clients I'm after yet but I know there are customers that would not even question a fee for problems in their landscape investments. We as Arborist's, are supposed to seek advice in the event something is beyond our expertise. I may someday wish to do consultation and if I spend the money ,time necessary you can bet I would expect a fee lol


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

You guys are missing the point, i'm not talking about consultations, i'm talking about a new climber asking an experienced climber for advice. If i were a newbie and were to ask you personally, rope about how to tie a blake's hitch, would you charge me? To me it sounds like jps would. But fine, jps is the second coming of jc. All hail jps!!!!

Happy now?

Btw, we're down for the day, so sitting around board out of my mind and stirring up trouble.:giggle:


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> It is funny that someone so keen on formal training and regulation isn't even yet tcia accredited yet. But leaving that aside, what makes jps's training formal? The fact that you paid for it?
> Is he a licensed or certified teacher? Since it's so important to so many here, is he a ca or a bcma? Is any governing body outside of the couple hundred people that know him even going to recognize his training? I mean i may have to pay 140 to go to treeseer's little event, but at least that is recognized as training by the isa. How is jps's training formal in your book, and how is it going to cover your butt in a legal situation. It's like me saying, "yeah, i went to a weekend seminar put on by bubba down the road." It doesn't mean a whole lot.



Since it seems to be all about me....

I have never said that I am in favor of formal training, I do think that a professional should constantly seek out an education from many sources. I have repeatedly stated that I am self-educated up until the last few years. I am well on my way to getting a a little BS behind my name though. I am doing it part time, so i have a few more years to go. 

I do not claim to have a program that will help you with any sort of accreditation, all i say is that I can help any small business with efficiency and training. My area is helping small operations with areas that they do not have time to gain the knowledge and skills that I have developed. Though a Life Member of the ISA I have regularly stated that I am disappointed with the accreditation system. Maybe TCSP and BCMA would help me market my services, but I lack the time to put a good effort into it. I do not see any use for CA in my position, because I have been able to demonstrate my knowledge to prospective clientele for well over a decade now. 

I have not pursued any tradeshow events, nor have I had anything set up with a local dealer. I am not set up to show you a better climbing hitch, or sell you a different system. (though I have worked at trade shows booths for trade, it has been more then a few years since I have done that). 

I can help with general and specific problems in production and operations, such as training individuals and small groups in climbing and rigging. I do that in OJT type settings, most small companies cannot afford to break for a day; so they set up a job where we can work on a moderately technical job, and the workers can see different ways of doing things and try them out. I look at how things are done and how things can be improved. Quite often it takes a person from the outside to see these things, and I have worked with many different companies. Often a small operator does the same thing for years and gets into a rut, they do not have time to find ideas to improve efficiencies. So there are more thing to offer then a better VT or identifying a girdling root.

Those are some of the apples that I can offer a small tree company that wants to improve the top line, not the stale orange juice you seem to think i am peddling. To mix a metaphor....


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

Thank you, jps. Good answer, and if i were to start my own business (heaven forbid), you would seem like a guy to call if i had problems-and i would not have a problem paying a fee for that kind of service.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> You guys are missing the point, i'm not talking about consultations, i'm talking about a new climber asking an experienced climber for advice. If i were a newbie and were to ask you personally, rope about how to tie a blake's hitch, would you charge me? To me it sounds like jps would. But fine, jps is the second coming of jc. All hail jps!!!!
> 
> Happy now?
> 
> Btw, we're down for the day, so sitting around board out of my mind and stirring up trouble.:giggle:


 I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.


----------



## beowulf343 (Feb 1, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.


 
You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous?

I look at it this way, i would feel better teaching someone how to tie a blakes than have that guy try to pick it up off the internet. If he's determined to do it, he's going to find the information somewhere from somebody.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous?
> 
> I look at it this way, i would feel better teaching someone how to tie a blakes than have that guy try to pick it up off the internet. If he's determined to do it, he's going to find the information somewhere from somebody.


 
Well buddy, we just won't tell Jeffy I feel we have way too many half azzed tree men to assist in more. I feel training them the whole picture more rewarding. When they learn to deal with the branches below ground, they likely will be better above ground personal. Many of us whine about men leaving them to compete against them and it is a fact, it happens. Many times it is because they have learned all they can from you. If climbing is all they see, their interest may not be sparked for, as long as; learning apr,phc.ipm!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> Thank you, jps. Good answer, and if i were to start my own business (heaven forbid), you would seem like a guy to call if i had problems-and i would not have a problem paying a fee for that kind of service. [/quote}
> 
> Wheew! good thing i looked down..I was slathering the sarcasm a little thicker just now.
> 
> Kinda sucks, I did put a little effort into the stuff i just deleted


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I don't think he would charge for something so basic. However I always wonder about teaching something that could allow injury if not in a hands on relationship. Best advice is go to work with someone who is a pro and learn all you can.


 
I've not, though it can become a comedic tragedy when I find myself with a start-up company with little experiance whatsoever. This is when things usually get broken and I end up not making much money.  I have learned to ask questions and avoid, or charge out the wazoo. 

"what, you don't have ANY insurance...you mean we are working on mine?"


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've not, though it can become a comedic tragedy when I find myself with a start-up company with little experiance whatsoever. This is when things usually get broken and I end up not making much money.  I have learned to ask questions and avoid, or charge out the wazoo.
> 
> "what, you don't have ANY insurance...you mean we are working on mine?"


 
Now that is funny working on yours I have a friend that likes to do that. He thinks he should get half, I have often told him that's fine when you pay for half including inventory and a little for my efforts obtaining clients


----------



## tree md (Feb 1, 2011)

If you are a small time owner/operator I think it makes a lot of sense to hire a consultant if you are trying to incorporate newer, more modern climbing and rigging systems into your operation. Kind of hard to do that when you are your own sole climber. You know how hard it is to teach old dogs on the ground new tricks from 60' up? Sure you can explain it the best you can but there is a dozen times a day I wish I was on the ground so I could show them what to do. Sure, you can hire a climber and work the ground yourself to train them but good climbers are hard to come by and with the economy being the way it has been for the past two years that has just not been an option. With production being the name of the game it's hard to take the time to do training sessions. I am always up for learning new tricks as well.

Personally, hiring a consultant for a day or two would be great for me and my business.

I would rather hire someone who I know (have personally met), respect and like than a total stranger.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 1, 2011)

tree md said:


> If you are a small time owner/operator I think it makes a lot of sense to hire a consultant if you are trying to incorporate newer, more modern climbing and rigging systems into your operation. Kind of hard to do that when you are your own sole climber. You know how hard it is to teach old dogs on the ground new tricks from 60' up? Sure you can explain it the best you can but there is a dozen times a day I wish I was on the ground so I could show them what to do. Sure, you can hire a climber and work the ground yourself to train them but good climbers are hard to come by and with the economy being the way it has been for the past two years that has just not been an option. With production being the name of the game it's hard to take the time to do training sessions. I am always up for learning new tricks as well.
> 
> Personally, hiring a consultant for a day or two would be great for me and my business.
> 
> I would rather hire someone who I know (have personally met), respect and like than a total stranger.


 
Yup well said, now send some ice buddy so's we can work lol.


----------



## justme23005 (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> Jeez, can we get our lips off your cheeks for maybe just a minute??
> 
> This is my problem with "experienced" treemen these days. They like to preach you need more education, you need more education, you need more education. Ok, fine, why do i now have to pay you to get this education that you and guys like you tell me i so desperately need? What exactly can you teach me that would be worth paying for? About all i've seen is if i need to order something from stp, you'd be the guy to call. You guys and your "i'm not going to teach you anything till the check is in the mail" attitude is getting out of hand. My teachers never charged me for their time, they were happy to spend a little time teaching an enthusiastic youngster how to carry on in a job they loved. I've never charged someone to get together or for advice ( it's so simple, i can't even send you an email with a question and expect an answer unless a check is on the way?) How is this good for advancing knowledge. So you supposedly know something about trees that no other arborist knows, and now it's time to cash in? I'm tired of going to lectures or workshops by arborists who aren't coming up with anything new and having to pay a couple hundred dollars. Why do these guys, why do you, think you have to walk away with a couple grand just to flap your lips? Is it the ego boost?
> 
> Now i have no problem paying someone for their time, or paying gas money, or whatever. But don't you think it's getting ridiculous when you won't even answer an email unless money is forthcoming? Pathetic, you and your ilk are an insult to those who actually love the work and are willing to share their knowledge without expecting a huge monetary gain.


 


Very well put.. Too many people climb trees with big ego's and a closed mind... It's really hard to learn anything that way.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 1, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> You want a hands on relationship with me rope? Won't jeff get jealous.



:love1:
Jeff, never jealous.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 1, 2011)

Here is one you don't want in your collection


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 1, 2011)

That there is just mean. Have you no soul, JP???
Jeff


----------



## Bermie (Feb 1, 2011)

Sure, tree work pays my bills, I'm a pro in the making, every job teaches me more!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 2, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> That there is just mean. Have you no soul, JP???
> Jeff


 
Here's one of Charly Pottorff out on the town


----------



## sgreanbeans (Feb 2, 2011)

WOW! After reading all that about JPS, only makes the waiting for him to come down this summer harder to deal with (RV spot is already done JPS) I will have no problem handing him a nice check for the knowledge that he will share, the constructive criticism he will give me about my operation will be welcome. To watch him in action will be even better. 
I do not understand what the problem is, paying for his knowledge will be a great investment. To expect someone to give it away for free, well, that isn't right.
I am in no way,shape or form putting myself on a pedestal, but I do feel I have a pretty good grip on Arboriculture. That said, I know that there are volumes of knowledge in his head that I have not even begun to dig into. Jeff and TV, the same. I am just a novice in comparison and wish that I started this pursuit of knowledge along time ago.
Often after talking to him, I find my self in the books, looking up a single word that he said. Butt kissing, nope, trying to better myself by asking someone who I consider a mentor, yep.
There a several guys on here, that I feel are great teachers/mentors. Who have spent the most of their lives learning. That was not free, therefore, they should get paid for their investment. It was not free to them, why should it be free to me?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 2, 2011)

sgreanbeans said:


> WOW! After reading all that about JPS, only makes the waiting for him to come down this summer harder to deal with (RV spot is already done JPS)


 
So you do not think that the March (spring break) time-frame will work, we will have to do it after Finals?


----------



## beastmaster (Feb 2, 2011)

There are a lot of big Egos on this thread, but that goes with being good in my book. My buisness skills are pretty weak so self employment hasn't work out well for me, but I have a lot of respect for the Pro's that can run a buisness and do the job right.
I might be a big fish in a small pound, but around these parts I make anywhere from double to triple what a lot of climbers make. I'm not as fast as I use to be but several different Companys seem to think I'm professional enough to use when their own employees can't or won't do the job. I like to think my pride and Ego forces my skill level to be high. I want to be professional there fore I am always learning and trying to expand my skills and understanding. My big Ego doesn't want to be caught short.
I know some good climber who I would call professional at trimming, but they can't safely do a technical removal, or assess a hazard tree, or diagnose a diseased tree, some can do all that and more, does that make that tree trimmer any less a Professional?
I think I'm a decent feller but a Humboldt logger would probably think me an amateur(still can't get that soft dutchman down.ha)
Even Doctors and lawyers sometimes call a professional for a specialty job. Does that make them less a Doctor? Or the fact they know their limitations make them a Professional.
Not sure where I am going with this. The job I had for today got put off because of 40 mile an hour winds, so I'm home bored. Beastmaster


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey Beast, I was in Banning all morning! Dang! 37 degrees and 50-60 mph winds. Yeah, you ain't working in the wind, impossible. 
Jeff


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 2, 2011)

Palms blowing and still snow up on Big Bear!
Jeff


----------



## justme23005 (Feb 2, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> There are a lot of big Egos on this thread, but that goes with being good in my book. My buisness skills are pretty weak so self employment hasn't work out well for me, but I have a lot of respect for the Pro's that can run a buisness and do the job right.
> I might be a big fish in a small pound, but around these parts I make anywhere from double to triple what a lot of climbers make. I'm not as fast as I use to be but several different Companys seem to think I'm professional enough to use when their own employees can't or won't do the job. I like to think my pride and Ego forces my skill level to be high. I want to be professional there fore I am always learning and trying to expand my skills and understanding. My big Ego doesn't want to be caught short.
> I know some good climber who I would call professional at trimming, but they can't safely do a technical removal, or assess a hazard tree, or diagnose a diseased tree, some can do all that and more, does that make that tree trimmer any less a Professional?
> I think I'm a decent feller but a Humboldt logger would probably think me an amateur(still can't get that soft dutchman down.ha)
> ...


 
I respectfully disagree. Most people associate big ego's with incompetence. Anybody who is really good at what they do, doesn't have to go around telling everybody how good they are. Other people do it for them. The best guys that I have worked with in this field have always been very quiet, focused and willing to help the new guys stay safe.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 2, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> I respectfully disagree. The best guys that I have worked with in this field have always been very quiet, focused and willing to help the new guys stay safe.


 
And when they do it, they are helping! And when they get home and un-wind, their ego can come out! Well deserved ego. 
Jeff


----------



## beastmaster (Feb 3, 2011)

I may be using the word ego, out of context. No one likes a loud bragging, know it all. What word would describe, supremely confident and competent, prideful of the type of work or profession he or she does. Insert that word in place of ego and maybe it'll make more sense. Ego was a poor choice of words.
Though many times people who think their supremely confident and competent developed big Egos, you see it in many professions
I'm a Chan practitioner and see the ego different then some. I'll edit when I find the right word. Beastmaster


----------



## beastmaster (Feb 3, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Hey Beast, I was in Banning all morning! Dang! 37 degrees and 50-60 mph winds. Yeah, you ain't working in the wind, impossible.
> Jeff


 I had a removal over a house. I figured 3 hours, but in that wind 8 hours. What were you guy doing in 50 mph winds? I passed two over turned rigs on the way to work today. Crazy.
It suppose to die down in the morning.


----------



## justme23005 (Feb 3, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I may be using the word ego, out of context. No one likes a loud bragging, know it all. What word would describe, supremely confident and competent, prideful of the type of work or profession he or she does. Insert that word in place of ego and maybe it'll make more sense. Ego was a poor choice of words.
> Though many times people who think their supremely confident and competent developed big Egos, you see it in many professions
> I'm a Chan practitioner and see the ego different then some. I'll edit when I find the right word. Beastmaster



Professionalism?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 3, 2011)

justme23005 said:


> I respectfully disagree. Most people associate big ego's with incompetence. Anybody who is really good at what they do, doesn't have to go around telling everybody how good they are. Other people do it for them. The best guys that I have worked with in this field have always been very quiet, focused and willing to help the new guys stay safe.


 
I think you are confusing those who say they are gods gift to _________ and those of us who say that we know what we are talking about. If you are going to do that then you have to occasionally blow your own horn; as with this thread where I try to differentiate what I do and a skilled technician who takes a new climber under his/her (happy Guy?  ) wing. 

This may be were the difference between professional and Professional comes into play. When you parse the argument this then the climbing arborist is professional, where as the "Arboriculture Professional" has a sufficient knowledge of many different scientific disciplines.

A Professional Arborist also knows something about mycology and soil science.
Guy can go on for hours about mushrooms and soil types;
therefore, Guy is a true arborist.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Feb 3, 2011)

beastmaster said:


> I had a removal over a house. I figured 3 hours, but in that wind 8 hours. What were you guy doing in 50 mph winds? I passed two over turned rigs on the way to work today. Crazy.
> It suppose to die down in the morning.


 
It was just me out by Oaks Valley Golf course. The crews were in San Diego. I was tagging trees for removal next week.
Jeff


----------



## RVALUE (Feb 3, 2011)

I suppose I am not a professional. I derive less than 25 percent of my income from tree trimming and removal. ( I do all I can get???? ) 

Please you 'pro's' be kind to me........


----------



## justme23005 (Feb 3, 2011)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I think you are confusing those who say they are gods gift to _________ and those of us who say that we know what we are talking about. If you are going to do that then you have to occasionally blow your own horn; as with this thread where I try to differentiate what I do and a skilled technician who takes a new climber under his/her (happy Guy?  ) wing.
> 
> This may be were the difference between professional and Professional comes into play. When you parse the argument this then the climbing arborist is professional, where as the "Arboriculture Professional" has a sufficient knowledge of many different scientific disciplines.
> 
> ...



I think the guys that don't know what they are doing, thin themselves out pretty fast. They either give up, or get hurt. I think after a tricky removal, we all look back at it and say "damn, I'm pretty good". There is a huge difference between having confidence in what we do, and saying "i am so good that I can charge other people for my knowledge". I give knowledge to the younger guys, and take it from the older guys.. Its kind of a natural flow type thing.. My need to keep the younger guys safe, is more important than making money off my knowledge. I'm glad the older guys that I get knowledge from, feel the same way.


----------

