# New chain sharpening tool



## Fallguy1960 (May 25, 2013)

Has anyone here seen or used this one yet? I know it is not set up for a milling chain. Now if someone out there that could modify the guide set up using a screw and swivel similar to the Grantsberg file guide to make a unit to work on milling chains.:msp_wink:Video | Timberline Chainsaw Sharpener


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## JasonMS660 (May 25, 2013)

Just watched the vid, I've been looking for something That could give me a more consistent edge. I normally get about 10 sometimes more file sharpens before I send the chain off to get re-dressed. 
I was very disappointed in the qlty. On a new chain I brushed a rock slightly and when I got the chain back the cutting teeth were visibly different from left to right so it had to go back. He other chains had evidence of significant overheating from the grinding. It will be the last time i get those guys to Sharpen my chains. There's a Husky dealer in town so i might try them, could be ackward as I'm a Stihl man. I've been considering the granberg clamp on file and Gide type thing as I'm not too worried about how long it takes. I assume that the granberg one can be set to sharpen ripping chains. I've tried the bench grinder type sharpeners but I found that they really chew up your chain. I do a lot of firewood cutting but just about to go into milling my own timber for building. Thanks for posting there are dealers in Aust if the price over here is not rediculous I'll definitely give it a go.


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## BobL (May 25, 2013)

$128 buys a lot of files.


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## JasonMS660 (May 25, 2013)

BobL said:


> $128 buys a lot of files.



It sure dose and thats if its only $128 here. (ive sent off an email on the Aust distributor Peerless to get a local price etc. The carbide stones for that unit are $20 bucks each and 40 sharpens long! I know the purest would always back hand filing above all else and they are right. I've been sharpening chains for over 15 years and I just can't get them like the way they are out of the box.:msp_wink:


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## Stu in Tokyo (May 25, 2013)

Very interesting and I can see how that would be a great help to get accurate results for a newbie. For me, the fact that it does not do the angles for ripping chain makes it a lot less attractive. It does look like a well made product.


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## hamish (May 25, 2013)

For the cost one could easily purchase a good quality grinder or a combi gauge and six dozen files.


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## DSS (May 25, 2013)

I've got one that I won here in a raffle. It does work well and I think the carbide cutter will last longer than advertised. Its really well built but there is a learning curve. That being said, I don't use it much. I find it quicker to file by hand. 

Its a good compromise from an electric grinder for some people in my opinion. It puts on a nice edge.


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## hamish (May 25, 2013)

DSS said:


> I've got one that I won here in a raffle. It does work well and I think the carbide cutter will last longer than advertised. Its really well built but there is a learning curve. That being said, I don't use it much. I find it quicker to file by hand.
> 
> Its a good compromise from an electric grinder for some people in my opinion. It puts on a nice edge.



Did yours come from Lee Valley?


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## DSS (May 25, 2013)

hamish said:


> Did yours come from Lee Valley?




Not sure. I donated to a raffle and won it. Came to me from Tennessee.


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## heyduke (May 26, 2013)

*Timberline Sharpener*

i recently purchased the timberline sharpener and i think it is a really good tool. i've been sharpening with a combination of oregon 511, for damaged chains and filing with the new huskvarna guide in between grinding. abrasive wheels overheat the metal no matter how carefully you grind and they also leave an abrasive residue that causes the edges to dull quickly. my experience has been that just about every american (and maybe canadian) male thinks he can play the drums and file a chain, but few really possess the skill to do either. if you're using your saw on a regular basis and not using it as an object to take up shelf space in the garage, you need a sharp chain every time you put it in wood. the timberline, if you use it correctly, will produce a chain that is sharper than a new loop. and, the edge lasts because it wasn't annealed by an abrasive stone. the tungsten carbide burrs cost $20 but they're a good deal. If you sharpen a lot you will go thru a lot of files if that's in your work flow. i usually buy files by the dozen. if you use a file guide that doesn't allow the file to rotate, your files really wear quickly. again, i think this is a remarkably good tool, worth every cent.

you can read my full review here:

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/180488-33.htm


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## flashhole (May 26, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Fallguy1960 (May 26, 2013)

My thought was if you just can not get the knack for filing this would be a great tool because as has been mentioned grinders tend to to over heat the tooth. I saw on the web site that they offer 25 and 30 degree collets. I think if the back plate was designed with a center hole and a 10 degree collet that could be indexed for the right and left cutters it would be a good unit for milling chains.


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## BobL (May 26, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> . . . . . I've been sharpening chains for over 15 years and I just can't get them like the way they are out of the box.:msp_wink:



Tell me how you set your rakers?


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## scor440 (May 26, 2013)

*Chain Sharpener*

Just a comment.If you sharpen a chain on a machine and you anneal [soften]the tooth then you need to look at how hard and how much you are grinding off and the condition of the wheel.Most wheels very seldom get cleaned to open up the grain.If it is black or dark gray that is not proper maintenance.If the tooth is not smooth as factory then it will dull faster because you are dealing with a bunch of rough grind marks that are dull in the first place.The lines in the grind should be almost invisible to the eye.It is not a big deal to clean the wheel and even reform the profile radius on the wheel with some practice [get the tooth angle correct] if you take the time to do it.My 2 cents from 20 years in the tool grind industry.


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## JasonMS660 (May 27, 2013)

BobL said:


> Tell me how you set your rakers?



Hi bob, my file sharpener PFERD which keeps them termed every time you sharpen.
I noticed the last chains I got my local Stihl dealer in town to grind dosn't as they were hopeless. I'll have to reset the rakers now, I do think I'll go back to those guys again.


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## BobL (May 27, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> Hi bob, my file sharpener PFERD which keeps them termed every time you sharpen.



Sorry but that is a constant raker depths system, and it files rakers flat which is not as effective as rounding them over. That system is guaranteed to make chains cut less and less efficiently as the chain wears 

The system that keeps chains cutting "like new or better" ,and optimises cutting speed by customising the raker depths to suit your saw/wood/cut width and your favourite sandwich filling, until the cutter teeth are so short they break off, is called the progressive raker depth or constant raker angle. There are some gizmos like the Carlton File-o-plate (FOP) that sort of do this but the do it to a fixed angle that is on the wussy side. 

The thread in Hot Saws - CHain sharpening that discusses this in grimy detail is here
http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/114624.htm


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## JasonMS660 (May 27, 2013)

BobL said:


> Sorry but that is a constant raker depths system, and it files rakers flat which is not as effective as rounding them over. That system is guaranteed to make chains cut less and less efficiently as the chain wears
> 
> The system that keeps chains cutting "like new or better" ,and optimises cutting speed by customising the raker depths to suit your saw/wood/cut width and your favourite sandwich filling, until the cutter teeth are so short they break off, is called the progressive raker depth or constant raker angle. There are some gizmos like the Carlton File-o-plate (FOP) that sort of do this but the do it to a fixed angle that is on the wussy side.
> 
> ...



Yes you are right, it wasn't till after reading on your advise about the progressive raker depth that I also realized that I need to shape the raker otherwise It leaves a flat top on the raker. So much to catch up on, but this site really helps. Thanks fore your advice Bob.


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## heyduke (May 27, 2013)

BobL said:


> Tell me how you set your rakers?



i use the oregon 511 with a 1/4" wheel to grind the rakers. years ago i had a silvey raker grinder but i think the method i use now is more precise and just as fast.


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## heyduke (May 27, 2013)

scor440 said:


> Just a comment.If you sharpen a chain on a machine and you anneal [soften]the tooth then you need to look at how hard and how much you are grinding off and the condition of the wheel.Most wheels very seldom get cleaned to open up the grain.If it is black or dark gray that is not proper maintenance.If the tooth is not smooth as factory then it will dull faster because you are dealing with a bunch of rough grind marks that are dull in the first place.The lines in the grind should be almost invisible to the eye.It is not a big deal to clean the wheel and even reform the profile radius on the wheel with some practice [get the tooth angle correct] if you take the time to do it.My 2 cents from 20 years in the tool grind industry.



good advice, you need to keep your grinding wheel dressed and clean. you can also minimise annealing by making multiple light cuts, using a quick motion that minimizes the time the metal is in contact with the wheel BUT the metal at the edge is really thin and will always overheat to some degree. regarding inspection of the sharpened tooth, i must agree with you there too. your best tool for sharpening is a good pair of reading glasses.

that being said, i hope you have the opportunity to try the timberline with tungsten carbide cutters, turning a a very low speed, maybe 100rpm, and the exact diameter specified by oregon, stihl or carlton. the finished tooth is a thing of beauty. I suppose they use a similar cutter at the factory for sharpening chains. one word of warning, almost all 3/8" oregon chain, excluding lo-pro and ripping is ground to 25 degrees at the factory now. I don't know when they changed from 30 degrees. maybe it was a kickback issue. anyway the getting 30 and 25 degree guide is a good idea if you buy the sharpener.

another observation, a really common comment by guys using the timberline for the first time, sharpening a chain that has had some use, is that they didn't know how bad their filing skills actually were.

i didn't realize at first that this was the milling forum and that deserves a comment too. i think it would be possible to design a sharpener for 10 degree plates but it would need to be reversible because there wouldn't be room for two cutter guides. i've done quite a bit of milling and know the frustration with chain getting dull half way thru a piece of doug fir or redwood. this type of sharpener would be a real asset for milling. it needs no electricity and works as well in the field as in the shop. talk to phil at timberline. see what he says.


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## lumberjack48 (May 27, 2013)

I wish i could spend an hour with you hands on, I'd have you filing by hand. New chain out of the box, doesn't have a super sharp edge on them. I always filed a new chain before using it.

Take a new chain, look straight down at it, you'll see a shinny edge along the edge of the cutter. If you do see it, its dull, it'll take about one full stroke with a file to remove it, when its gone its sharp.

I have never seen a chain out of the box that didn't have it, or off the roll.

What i think is funny, they tell you to use a 7/32 file, hell it doesn't fit in the cutter. This is because it wasn't sharped with a 7/32 grinder. Take a 3/16 or 5/32 file, it'll fit, i use a 5/32 file, it fits in the factory grind. This is the main reason you can never get it to cut as good as it did out of the box.


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## Philbert (May 27, 2013)

scor440 said:


> Most wheels very seldom get cleaned to open up the grain.If it is black or dark gray that is not proper maintenance. . . .It is not a big deal to clean the wheel and even reform the profile radius on the wheel with some practice . . .



The need to expose fresh grit was not clear to me at first - I thought that you only needed to dress the wheels for shape. The instructions that come with most chain grinders are notoriously poor.



heyduke said:


> . . .I suppose they use a similar cutter at the factory for sharpening chains.



I had the opportunity to see this once. They were using abrasive wheels with coolant on very expensive, automated, precision grinders. Grinding the cutters before the chain is assembled gives the manufacturer some options that we don't have as end users.



heyduke said:


> . . ., almost all 3/8" oregon chain, excluding lo-pro and ripping is ground to 25 degrees at the factory now. I don't know when they changed from 30 degrees. maybe it was a kickback issue. anyway the getting 30 and 25 degree guide is a good idea if you buy the sharpener.



The Timberline has received mostly positive reviews in that thread you referenced - I have not had the opportunity to try it. My bottom line has always been for guys to find something that works for them, so it is a good option to have available. 

One of it's limitations is what you note: restricted to a limited number of discrete angles. Cutter angles sometimes make a difference for species of wood, or speed versus durability etc. Not a problem for most guys, but could be for an odd chain or special need. Oregon probably just made a decision on what the best 'all around angle for the average user' was when they changed their 'default' angles. If you grind or file you can pretty much choose whatever angle you want.

Philbert


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## heyduke (May 27, 2013)

lumberjack48 said:


> I wish i could spend an hour with you hands on, I'd have you filing by hand. New chain out of the box, doesn't have a super sharp edge on them. I always filed a new chain before using it.
> 
> Take a new chain, look straight down at it, you'll see a shinny edge along the edge of the cutter. If you do see it, its dull, it'll take about one full stroke with a file to remove it, when its gone its sharp.
> 
> ...



i agree, i've had a lot of guys tell me that chain needed to be filed before used. i never have done that but i think it's likely true. the main thing about fresh chain is that it lasts... until you grind it the first time.

grinding wheels don't come in 7/32" as far as i know. the wheel for 3/8" and .404 is 3/16". the carbide burr from timberline is 7/32". lo-pro is 5/32". thos are the only types of chain i use. i keep a roll of each.


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## heyduke (May 27, 2013)

Philbert said:


> The need to expose fresh grit was not clear to me at first - I thought that you only needed to dress the wheels for shape. The instructions that come with most chain grinders are notoriously poor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i'd give my left nut to visit the oregon factory. 

you're right about finding what works for you. that's what took me to timberline. i was hand filing between grinds, keeping depth gauges in spec and still dissatisfied with the quality. i was going to spend $300 on one of those aussie aluminium grinding wheels when i came across the timberline.

regarding ripping chain, i think that if you drilled the bore for the guide bushing dead center then put an angle into the guide bushing, you could flip the guide bushing over when you changed sides, maybe get something close to 10 deg. i think i've ground ripping chain at 5 deg in the past. about special angles, the edge you get with the current model is so superior it might cut better than you'd expect thru a broad range of species and special conditions. oregon recommends that you tilt the vise 10 deg. stihl wants you to move the vise in a flat plane, both to make the edge have a higher aspect ratio at the corner away from the tip. the timberline doesn't do that but it cuts better than new chain with that grind, throws the biggest chips i've seen.


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## lumberjack48 (May 27, 2013)

heyduke said:


> i agree, i've had a lot of guys tell me that chain needed to be filed before used. i never have done that but i think it's likely true. the main thing about fresh chain is that it lasts... until you grind it the first time.
> 
> grinding wheels don't come in 7/32" as far as i know. the wheel for 3/8" and .404 is 3/16". the carbide burr from timberline is 7/32". lo-pro is 5/32". thos are the only types of chain i use. i keep a roll of each.



I was using that for an example, like on a 3/8 full chisel, recommended file is 7/32 . Theres no way it'll fit in the cutter, when using a 7/32 file, the first time filing you have to reshape the cutter. A 5/32 file fits right in the cutter, this makes the first time filing easy and fun. Just follow the angle and the depth of the file, keep cutter standing straight up and down. I taking hand filing, i logged 36 yrs, counting the last 6 yrs the wife kept the job going. I was out there just about everyday, in the pickup or in our logging bus, never had a chain sharpened on a grinder.


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## JasonMS660 (May 27, 2013)

*We always get ripped in Australia*



Fallguy1960 said:


> Has anyone here seen or used this one yet? I know it is not set up for a milling chain. Now if someone out there that could modify the guide set up using a screw and swivel similar to the Grantsberg file guide to make a unit to work on milling chains.:msp_wink:Video | Timberline Chainsaw Sharpener



So I tracked down a dealer for the Timberline Sharpener in Australia, over $340 AUD. Why do we always get ripped down under. No wonder people buy off the net rather than support local distributors.:msp_unsure:


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## heyduke (May 28, 2013)

lumberjack48 said:


> I was using that for an example, like on a 3/8 full chisel, recommended file is 7/32 . Theres no way it'll fit in the cutter, when using a 7/32 file, the first time filing you have to reshape the cutter. A 5/32 file fits right in the cutter, this makes the first time filing easy and fun. Just follow the angle and the depth of the file, keep cutter standing straight up and down. I taking hand filing, i logged 36 yrs, counting the last 6 yrs the wife kept the job going. I was out there just about everyday, in the pickup or in our logging bus, never had a chain sharpened on a grinder.



that's a long time in the woods! what kind of trees were you cutting? you're not going to get any arguments from me on grinders. they pretty much screw up a chain. i use mine if i have severe damage from rock or nail but then i file to remove the heat damaged steel. or i just throw it away and make a new loop. 

it makes sense to me that a file with a smaller than specified diameter would work quite well and would cut faster too. maybe i should just carry one size of file, a 5/32". that would simplify my life a little. one thing about switching to the timberline is that i won't be needing to buy a dozen files with every bailey's order.

my rule is: it's better to have a mediocre saw with a sharp chain than a great saw with a mediocre chain.


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## 820wards (Jun 5, 2013)

BobL said:


> $128 buys a lot of files.



Ditto Bob.

jerry-


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## Rudolf73 (Jun 5, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> So I tracked down a dealer for the Timberline Sharpener in Australia, over $340 AUD. Why do we always get ripped down under. No wonder people buy off the net rather than support local distributors.:msp_unsure:



Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 5, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...



Yeah your right, it's a flat world now days with the Internet. It a shame as I would prefer to support local distributors and industry but how can you justify excessive mark up. Might well head over and visit some friends in Oregon, have a holiday load up cloths and gear and come back and still be in front!


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## Philbert (Jun 5, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> Why do we always get ripped down under.



Your 'tax' for living on G-d's continent ?

Philbert


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## Rakaucutter (Jun 7, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> Yeah that sounds about right, I have given up buying chainsaw accessories over here unless its like a 50% off sale or something. I have no idea how they can justify that price increase, I mean I understand we live on an island etc. but its not the 1800's anymore. We have an idea what things really cost overseas...



You think it is bad in Aussie, at least your dollar is worth something unlike here in NZ. Also with such a small population some items like the Timberline are hard to come by full stop for love nor money!

I just bought the Timberline Sharpener online from Treestuff. Fantastically fast delivery - about 2 days! They had no issues freighting to New Zealand unlike Timberline themselves who wanted me to go through their soon-to-be-setup agent over here who would double the price and then some. Amazon wont ship lots of items to NZ as well including the Timberline.

Anyway, enough of my woes.... I just tried out the Timberline on my MS460. I usually use a grinder I bought second hand from an engineer who also did chainsaw work including chain sharpening. He had died so his wife was getting rid of his stuff. Always found it was a bit aggressive and hard to just take a small cut to sweeten the edge.

Timberline works amazingly! And from out of packet to on ready to go was about 4 minutes. Easy set up. Using it showed how inconsistent the two sides of my chain were in terms of length of the tooth. This bad boy has completely and accurately set each tooth to exactly the same as its neighbour. I had to cut quite a bit off some teeth as well to get them all the same. Obviously my grinder has become sloppy.

Result: Absolutely razor sharp. Cant wait to try it on some NZ native tomorrow.:msp_biggrin:


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## Fallguy1960 (Jun 7, 2013)

Timberline works amazingly! And from out of packet to on ready to go was about 4 minutes. Easy set up. Using it showed how inconsistent the two sides of my chain were in terms of length of the tooth. This bad boy has completely and accurately set each tooth to exactly the same as its neighbour. I had to cut quite a bit off some teeth as well to get them all the same. Obviously my grinder has become sloppy.Result: Absolutely razor sharp. Cant wait to try it on some NZ native tomorrow.:msp_biggrin:[/QUOTE]



Glad to here it can do what was advertised. My biggest issue with hand filing is consistency some days I am a machine the next all thumbs. I received a e-mail from Timberline they are working on a jig that will have a 10 degree angle for milling chains. Now a adjustable raker gauge?


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## IanB22 (Jun 7, 2013)

*Timberline looks great*

I have to say that the timberline looks great, but how does it compare to a portable dremel and a cool running 7/32" stone? 

That is the setup I use to sharpen my chain, and only when I get a really wonky tooth do I use a filing gauge I got from Stihl for like 15 bucks. The gauge lets me get the right cutter tooth angle, and then the dremel takes one or two light passes on a slow speed and the tooth is shining like some of my japanese knives I sharpen on water stones. Adjusting the raker's is a bit more difficult, but using a feeler gauge and a carbide wheel I am able to bring them down to .025 without much trouble. They may not be set all exactly, but within .005 I think.

Thoughts on comparing the timberline to a dremel running a stone?
Ian


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## Philbert (Jun 7, 2013)

IanB22 said:


> Thoughts on comparing the timberline to a dremel running a stone?
> Ian



Dremel stone is much less expensive, requires a power source, and changes diameter as it wears.

Philbert


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## heyduke (Jun 7, 2013)

IanB22 said:


> I have to say that the timberline looks great, but how does it compare to a portable dremel and a cool running 7/32" stone?
> 
> That is the setup I use to sharpen my chain, and only when I get a really wonky tooth do I use a filing gauge I got from Stihl for like 15 bucks. The gauge lets me get the right cutter tooth angle, and then the dremel takes one or two light passes on a slow speed and the tooth is shining like some of my japanese knives I sharpen on water stones. Adjusting the raker's is a bit more difficult, but using a feeler gauge and a carbide wheel I am able to bring them down to .025 without much trouble. They may not be set all exactly, but within .005 I think.
> 
> ...



the really significant difference is accuracy. the timberline produces a glass smooth, razor sharp perfect tooth, 25 30 or 35 degrees. with proper operation all the teeth can be set to within .1mm in length.

View attachment 299078


the side plates, likewise, are smooth and uniform.

View attachment 299079


sharpened correctly your chains can be sharper than out of the box.

View attachment 299080


maybe i'm a klutz, but i've never been able to get a chain sharp enough with a dremel. for one thing the diameter is constantly changing and they leave grit on your chain. but if it works for you stick stick with it.


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 7, 2013)

Rakaucutter said:


> You think it is bad in Aussie, at least your dollar is worth something unlike here in NZ. Also with such a small population some items like the Timberline are hard to come by full stop for love nor money!
> 
> I just bought the Timberline Sharpener online from Treestuff. Fantastically fast delivery - about 2 days! They had no issues freighting to New Zealand unlike Timberline themselves who wanted me to go through their soon-to-be-setup agent over here who would double the price and then some. Amazon wont ship lots of items to NZ as well including the Timberline.
> 
> ...



Yeah, you guys o get slugged over there, you reckon that they would look at joining the currency. The high AUD as made things cheaper, but this gear is well over ouble what it s in he US! I checked the site, if I'm running a standard Stihl bar 25 and chain, (3/8) what size do I need to get 7/32, 3/16! 5/32 or 13/64? Can anyone help!
My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains. But you can sharpen ripping chains though. The Timberline looks like its ideal for what I want at the moment for my cross cutting.


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## BobL (Jun 7, 2013)

heyduke said:


> the really significant difference is accuracy. the timberline produces a glass smooth, razor sharp perfect tooth, 25 30 or 35 degrees. with proper operation all the teeth can be set to within .1mm in length.
> 
> the side plates, likewise, are smooth and uniform.
> 
> sharpened correctly your chains can be sharper than out of the box..




Accuracy and smoothness of cutters won't help much if your rakers are all over the shop.






The diagonal on the purple rectangle defines the so called raker angle since this is the angle the wood makes with the cutter.
On the middle cutter the angle is 5.4º which is OK, but the one on the right is only 3.2º while the one on the left is 10.2º?
I reckon 6º +/- 0.5º is a minimum on regular chain but I don't sweat if the odd one or two on a 42" bar chain is out by 1º.

For safety chain like the one shown the rakers are effectively wider so I reckon they also need to be lower than usual. I have a couple of loops of that stuff and I use 7.5º with this stuff.

The bases of the cutters are also blued indicating the chain has been overheated at some stage. This happens when the rakers are too high and then the CSM is pushed too hard. 

I also reckon those cutters don't have enough hook for the saw to self feed in the cut.


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## heyduke (Jun 7, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> if I'm running a standard Stihl bar 25 and chain, (3/8) what size do I need to get 7/32, 3/16! 5/32 or 13/64? Can anyone help!



7/32" - get two



JasonMS660 said:


> My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains. But you can sharpen ripping chains though. The Timberline looks like its ideal for what I want at the moment for my cross cutting.



file jigs that don't let you rotate the file wear out the file before the chain gets sharp.


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## heyduke (Jun 7, 2013)

BobL said:


> Accuracy and smoothness of cutters won't help much if your rakers are all over the shop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BobL-

Thanks for the feedback. I'm working out a new way to set depth gauges using my 511a. i use the small 1/4" wide wheel the axis set a 60deg the wheel dressed to point an angle at the intersection of the cutter and the top of the link. the idea being that if the tooth rotates a bit, the depth stays constant. the height is set pretty much to .25. i screwed up one side, as you observed, by trying to change the axis of the motor and the chain vise interfered. i've since worked that out. that doesn't reflect on the quality of the teeth, which was the question being answered. also, i included a photo of the chips sitting on the cookie i had just cut with that chain. they speak for the timberline sharpener. the blueing of the chain is due to the oil pump on the old grey top 61. it never has been great since i bought it in the 80's. yes, it overheats, goes thru chains and bars. it's also possible that the depth gauges have been high at some point. you can see the chain is more than half gone even though i almost never use that saw. i was also embarrassed by the lousy low-kickback chain, don't remember how i came by that, but the saw had a much used chain that needed sharpening so it's the one i pulled off the shelf to make the photos. the "bumps" are much lower than the depth gauges and not a factor. don't know what a "CSM" is. regarding the hook and resulting feed, the chips speak volumes. i assure you that it cut aggressively without having to lever the dogs. 

your choice of angles interests me. how do you measure the top angle of the depth gauge?

thanks again for the thoughtful critique.


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## Philbert (Jun 7, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains.





heyduke said:


> file jigs that don't let you rotate the file wear out the file before the chain gets sharp.



The Granberg (and similar) jigs are very flexible. They work with a wide range of chains and allow almost any cutter angles to be dialed in. They can be a little confusing to set up first, but YouTube videos help. Then you have a lot of flexibility and use common files. 

The Timberline is simpler, but less flexible. Not an issue if you are happy with the fixed angles offered.

I rotate the files in my Granberg style jigs regularly. Loosening the little thumb screws does not affect any of the angle settings. 

Philbert


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 7, 2013)

i posted this months ago and some one last year it works ok used it 1 time its on the bench if your good just a file works best


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## Rakaucutter (Jun 8, 2013)

Glad to here it can do what was advertised. My biggest issue with hand filing is consistency some days I am a machine the next all thumbs. I received a e-mail from Timberline they are working on a jig that will have a 10 degree angle for milling chains. Now a adjustable raker gauge?[/QUOTE]

Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that! 

Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter. 

Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.


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## Rakaucutter (Jun 8, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> Yeah, you guys o get slugged over there, you reckon that they would look at joining the currency. The high AUD as made things cheaper, but this gear is well over ouble what it s in he US! I checked the site, if I'm running a standard Stihl bar 25 and chain, (3/8) what size do I need to get 7/32, 3/16! 5/32 or 13/64? Can anyone help!
> My next alternative is the Granberg sharpening jig but it looks complicated and requires constant adjustment with different chains. But you can sharpen ripping chains though. The Timberline looks like its ideal for what I want at the moment for my cross cutting.



I'd love my salary in Aussie dollars!!! Yeah I couldn't stomach the markup that some importers put on gear from the states. I'd rather bypass them completely and order from the US. Smokingly quick delivery from there to lil ol' NZ.

I've got the 7/32 and it's a perfect fit for my 3/8 stihl full chisel chain on a 20" stihl bar. Find the 13/64 that the Stihl guy told me to use for the hand file was a tad small in diameter...only just too small. 7/32 is superb.


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 8, 2013)

Rakaucutter said:


> Glad to here it can do what was advertised. My biggest issue with hand filing is consistency some days I am a machine the next all thumbs. I received a e-mail from Timberline they are working on a jig that will have a 10 degree angle for milling chains. Now a adjustable raker gauge?



Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that! 

Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter. 

Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.[/QUOTE]
Good idea Rakaucutter, I took the plunge and ordered one today. I ordered two cutters to get me going. Let us know how you go with the hand file in between, might save on the carbide cutters. Hey mate, if you want to sharpen a different (smaller chain) do you just order the right size cutter to suit? Anyway, thanks for the posts :msp_thumbup:


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## Rakaucutter (Jun 8, 2013)

JasonMS660 said:


> Brilliant....that is good news if they can work that one out.. A lot of folk will be interested in that!
> 
> Used the Timberline sharpened chain today on some Jarrah posts (not NZ native I hasten to add!). This wood is like iron normally but the 'better than new' chain ate it up like the proverbial knife/butter.
> 
> Figure I'll tickle up the edge with the hand file and use the Timberline instead of getting the grinder to it or getting the local Stihl guy to sharpen them after my filing has made a mess of them.


Good idea Rakaucutter, I took the plunge and ordered one today. I ordered two cutters to get me going. Let us know how you go with the hand file in between, might save on the carbide cutters. Hey mate, if you want to sharpen a different (smaller chain) do you just order the right size cutter to suit? Anyway, thanks for the posts :msp_thumbup:[/QUOTE]

Yeah you do....site I got it from had them for 20 bucks each. Dammit I should have ordered a few extra! They look like they will long outlast a normal file...they eat the metal off those teeth.... great tool.


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## Fallguy1960 (Jun 8, 2013)

Bob I know you are in Australia, but what is the brand of digital angle finder that you are using when you are filing your rakers?


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## mikebrownell (Jun 8, 2013)

As far as the Timberline goes: it's a great concept, especially the carbide, and looks to be of good quality. That being said, there's NO sharpening guide I'd spend triple digits on. Atop almost had me, but a 13/64" file (and FOP for depth gauges) is my choice until I find metal in a tree. Then I grind, which leads me to this: if you can't grind a tooth without blueing it, something's wrong. The burr on a ground tooth is about the thinnest, most heat intolerant thing in the sharpening zone, even more so than the actual cutting edge. Referring back to a previous post where one fellow believes some annealing HAS to occur with ANY grinding- B.S.! Far as I know, any modern cutter is made of chromed steel. And any metallurgist will tell you: with steel (and it's chroming), a visible color change will take place at temps that affect the hardness, period. Starts at a straw yellow, then brown, purple, blue, and so on. If the sharpened edge and/or burr are not turning brown/purple/blue (>500*F), no noticeable heat treatment has taken place. Had to get that out there, grinders get a bad rap from uninformed users. A file, used correctly, will give a keener edge for the most part. But there's no reason a rocked-out chain sharpened correctly on a grinder would perform far behind. Now find a hardware store or wherever that takes time to grind correctly...


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## BobL (Jun 9, 2013)

heyduke said:


> BobL-
> Thanks for the feedback. I'm working out a new way to set depth gauges using my 511a. i use the small 1/4" wide wheel the axis set a 60deg the wheel dressed to point an angle at the intersection of the cutter and the top of the link. the idea being that if the tooth rotates a bit, the depth stays constant. the height is set pretty much to .25.



0.025" is only appropriate for a brand new chain. For a cutter to continue to cut efficiently as it wears, the raker depth should progressively increase. A new cutter has a raker height of 0.025 and the gullet is nominally 0.25" When the gullet is half an inch wide the raker depth should be around 0.05" otherwise it will simply not grab enough wood and progressively make more and more dust. The ratio of gullet width to raker height should be around 10 and this will generate a raker-wood-cutter angle of ~5.7º. Carlton File-O-Plates (FOPs) generate an angle of around 4.5º which is IMHO too shallow. This raker angle is by no means a fixed quantity and will vary with type of wood, power of saw and length of bar/Chain. In 30" Aussie hardwood with a 880 around 6º works for me other people milling smaller softer wood use 7 or 7.5º. This method of setting the rakers (progressive raker depth setting) becomes more and more important (much more than cutter shape and smoothness) as the chain wears. Everyone I knows who tried this ended up being able to optimise their cutting (especially with older chains) in ways they have not been able to do before.



> i was also embarrassed by the lousy low-kickback chain, don't remember how i came by that, but the saw had a much used chain that needed sharpening so it's the one i pulled off the shelf to make the photos. the "bumps" are much lower than the depth gauges and not a factor.


Don't be embarrassed - it is what it is. I got mine cheap so I still use it. The bumps will become significant when you use progressive raker depth setting.



> don't know what a "CSM" is.


This you need to learn CSM - ChainSaw Mill



> regarding the hook and resulting feed, the chips speak volumes. i assure you that it cut aggressively without having to lever the dogs.


Then if you apply the progressive raker depth setting you will be even more impressed.



> your choice of angles interests me. how do you measure the top angle of the depth gauge?


See above and check this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/237919.htm



Fallguy1960 said:


> Bob I know you are in Australia, but what is the brand of digital angle finder that you are using when you are filing your rakers?


I have 3 DAFs for my various woodworking activities.
I also use these to assess and remove twist in the log rails
One is called a Wixey, the other I bought from Lee Valley and is called a Tilt box, and the third is a chinese no brand version which works when it feels like it.


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## Fallguy1960 (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks Bob


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## heyduke (Jun 9, 2013)

BobL said:


> 0.025" is only appropriate for a brand new chain. For a cutter to continue to cut efficiently as it wears, the raker depth should progressively increase. A new cutter has a raker height of 0.025 and the gullet is nominally 0.25" When the gullet is half an inch wide the raker depth should be around 0.05" otherwise it will simply not grab enough wood and progressively make more and more dust. The ratio of gullet width to raker height should be around 10 and this will generate a raker-wood-cutter angle of ~5.7º. Carlton File-O-Plates (FOPs) generate an angle of around 4.5º which is IMHO too shallow. This raker angle is by no means a fixed quantity and will vary with type of wood, power of saw and length of bar/Chain. In 30" Aussie hardwood with a 880 around 6º works for me other people milling smaller softer wood use 7 or 7.5º. This method of setting the rakers (progressive raker depth setting) becomes more and more important (much more than cutter shape and smoothness) as the chain wears. Everyone I knows who tried this ended up being able to optimise their cutting (especially with older chains) in ways they have not been able to do before.



i'm using the husqvarna filing guide which is similar in concept to the file-o-plate and, i believe progressively increases the raker setting and the top wears. it also lets you choose between a high and low setting, based on the wood being cut. i use it two set to teeth and then set up the 511a grinder to duplicate my filing.




BobL said:


> This you need to learn CSM - ChainSaw Mill



to me CSM means college of san mateo. i prefer to communicate in english or spanish.




BobL said:


> See above and check this thread http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/237919.htm



thank you very much for the link. i'll read thru it. i'll also pick up an angle finder.

cheers


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## jrhannum (Jun 9, 2013)

*anybody made it work at 10 degrees?*

The first post on this thread pondered whether the Timberline rig could be jimmied to set the carbide burr at ripping-chain angles (versus x-cutting 25-30 degrees); I'm about to order one with extra burrs and wonder if a tweak has been devised?


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 9, 2013)

jrhannum said:


> The first post on this thread pondered whether the Timberline rig could be jimmied to set the carbide burr at ripping-chain angles (versus x-cutting 25-30 degrees); I'm about to order one with extra burrs and wonder if a tweak has been devised?



Looking at it I cannot honestly see why they could make an additional guide for 10deg just. Like they offer the 35deg etc. I ordered one on tree stuff and check to see if there was a 10deg die but nothing available. An older post on here raised the same issue however hasn't seemed to be addressed. There is a bit of discussion regarding the Carlton chains though nothing on ripping chins. If they could it would be fantastic or CSMs, then it would be a matter of setting the rackers.


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## BobL (Jun 9, 2013)

heyduke said:


> i'm using the husqvarna filing guide which is similar in concept to the file-o-plate and, i believe progressively increases the raker setting and the top wears. it also lets you choose between a high and low setting, based on the wood being cut. i use it two set to teeth and then set up the 511a grinder to duplicate my filing.



Yep the Husky guide is a semi-progressive one like the FOP is a semi progressive one. I haven't measured the Husky guide but have used one and I found the lowest raker setting was still too high for older cutters. 

This thread discusses raker settings in some detail and from this it is clear that two raker settings are just not enough for milling to cover the range of wood hardness, B&C length, and CS power. The OP in that thread is using a 24" bar on a 3120 in softwoods and the fact that he cannot bog the saw suggests he can use an even higher raker angle than he is currently using.

To optimise cutting speed a raker guide would need to be able to set the raker angles from about 5º to say 10º in 0.5º, or at least 1º, increments. I can understand why a company would not risk selling such a product as a newbie setting the rakers to 10º risks serious of kickback especially on older cutters.


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## heyduke (Jun 10, 2013)

*timberline for milling chain*



JasonMS660 said:


> Looking at it I cannot honestly see why they could make an additional guide for 10deg just. Like they offer the 35deg etc. I ordered one on tree stuff and check to see if there was a 10deg die but nothing available. An older post on here raised the same issue however hasn't seemed to be addressed. There is a bit of discussion regarding the Carlton chains though nothing on ripping chins. If they could it would be fantastic or CSMs, then it would be a matter of setting the rackers.



i can see two ways of designing a 10 degree sharpening jig. both would use a single cutter guide dead center in the jig. the first method would be to drill the bore for the guide at ten degrees and would require that both ends of the jig be threaded for the chain stop. to change sides you would swap the chain stop to the other end. the other method would be to drill for the guide at zero degrees, 90 degrees to the chain, then bore the guide with a 10 degree angle and turn the guide 180 degrees to change sides.

i have heard that the the owner of timberline is working on the problem but i wonder if there would be enough demand to pay for it.


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## Greenland South (Jun 10, 2013)

Sent an email to Timberline yesterday, had a response today. That is a fast response.

My question and their answer;

"Just curious to know if you will be offering you sharpener with a bushing for cross cut chain?"

Hello Paul,

That is something we hope to have later this year. Probably in the fall.
Thank you,
Phil Krantz


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## heyduke (Jun 11, 2013)

BobL said:


> Yep the Husky guide is a semi-progressive one like the FOP is a semi progressive one. I haven't measured the Husky guide but have used one and I found the lowest raker setting was still too high for older cutters.
> 
> This thread discusses raker settings in some detail and from this it is clear that two raker settings are just not enough for milling to cover the range of wood hardness, B&C length, and CS power. The OP in that thread is using a 24" bar on a 3120 in softwoods and the fact that he cannot bog the saw suggests he can use an even higher raker angle than he is currently using.
> 
> To optimise cutting speed a raker guide would need to be able to set the raker angles from about 5º to say 10º in 0.5º, or at least 1º, increments. I can understand why a company would not risk selling such a product as a newbie setting the rakers to 10º risks serious of kickback especially on older cutters.



BobL-

I'm suffering some confusion about depth gauges. i sharpened a semi-chisel chain with the timberline sharpener. it is a 3/8" and i used a 7/32" cutter. i set the depth gauges using a stihl universal chain and bar tool, then took them down a bit more since the chain had some wear on it. i tried to cut a cookie with it and found it useless. i had to use a grinder to deepen the gullets, then sharpened again with the timberline and achieved enough hook to make it self feed. at that point i addressed the depth gauges again. this chain is the type that has a "bump" link for kickback and the husqvarna filing guide doesn't work on it, ergo the stihl tool. the stihl tool showed the rakers to be just a little high so out of curiosity i measured using a vernier callipers from top of tooth to bar and top of raker to bar. it measured a -.8mm and i was able to repeat that on all cutters that i measured. to clarify, my stihl tool showed my depth gauges to be too high by a few tenths of a mm and my callipers showed them to be low by .2mm. i'll try to get some photos today. another thing i'm thinking is that it would be wise to switch to a 3/16" carbide burr for sharpening older chains. i seem to remember that oregon used to recommend using a 3/16" file after the chain has been sharpened a few times. it's either that or lower the gullets. any ideas?


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## Philbert (Jun 11, 2013)

You are talking about 4, different parts of the chain, and they each have to be addressed respectively.

The diameter of the file, carbide cutter, grinding wheel edge, etc. shapes the cutter and sharpens the top and side edges.

Clearing out the gullet only needs to be done if it is an issue: if you are having trouble clearing chips, or if that portion of the side plate is sticking out out more than the upper part of the side plate (where the cutting is done).

Then you do the depth gauges (as you described ).

Then I would look at the bumper tie straps and make sure that they are not higher than the depth gauges.

Philbert


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## heyduke (Jun 11, 2013)

Philbert said:


> You are talking about 4, different parts of the chain, and they each have to be addressed respectively.
> 
> The diameter of the file, carbide cutter, grinding wheel edge, etc. shapes the cutter and sharpens the top and side edges.
> 
> ...



Philbert-

the reason i lowered the gullet was because it had a negative hook. the carbide burr was sitting too high. one weakness of the timberland tool is that it does not correctly measure gullet depth like any filing guide. it depends on the existing gullet to position the cutter height. i probably could have used a 3/16" carbide burr and achieved the same result but i don't have one. i only use three sizes of chain, 3/8" lo-pro, 3/8" and .404. i decided to order a couple of 3/16" burrs anyway. this afternoon (mountain time zone, usa) i lowered the depth gauges using BobL's technique that he demos in his youtube video. i set them to circa 6 degrees using a non-digital angle finder. the chain cut's well now, self feeds, throws big chips, in ponderosa pine and balsam poplar. i'll post a picture of the finished product as soon as i can run the raw files thru gimp or photoshop. i'm still kind of scratching my head about the lies my depth gauge tool told me. i won't trust those things any more. interesting that when i put the vernier callipers on the finished chain i measured about -.7mm between tooth and depth gauge. the bumper tie straps are just now contacting my grinding wheel. the chain is a piece of crap oregon low kickback but it came on a 038 magnum that i bought. i could make a new chain from my roll but consider this an opportunity to learn some of the finer points of chain sharpening.


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## BobL (Jun 11, 2013)

heyduke said:


> I'm suffering some confusion about depth gauges. i sharpened a semi-chisel chain with the timberline sharpener. it is a 3/8" and i used a 7/32" cutter. i set the depth gauges using a stihl universal chain and bar tool.



Do you mean the Stihl USG Universal Chain Sharpener
or one of these Stihl raker setting tool





?



> . . . . the stihl tool showed the rakers to be just a little high so out of curiosity i measured using a vernier callipers from top of tooth to bar and top of raker to bar. it measured a -.8mm and i was able to repeat that on all cutters that i measured. to clarify, my stihl tool showed my depth gauges to be too high by a few tenths of a mm and my callipers showed them to be low by .2mm.



Before commenting any further I need to know your gullet width.
The gullet is measured from the front of the raker to the very back of the gullet.

BTW note how the Stihl raker setting tool comes in different sizes. Some folks that know buy a set of the 0.025", 0.030" and 0.035" and use the deeper ones with more worn cutters. Trouble is that 0.035" is still too high for cutters once they are past about half way worn.

Oregon have 0.025, 0.030, 0.040 , 0.050, 0.060 and 0.070 depth gauges setting tools (see Bailey's - Files & Accessories > Depth Gauge Tools > Oregon Raker Gauges) but the increment between the sizes of gauges of 0.010" may be a tad too much for optimising raker angles.

Lets say your gullet is at 0.30, using the 0.030 raker gives a raker angle of 5.7º, a touch wussy but otherwise OK but maybe you want to be cutting a bit more aggressively so you go to the 0.04" gauge, but this gives an angle of 7.6º which may be too much. Using the Stihl gauge of 0.035" produces and angle 6.7º which is maybe more like what you want.

So if you don't wish to mess with digital angle finders or callipers to set the rakers etc then get your self a set of the orgeon gauges up to the 0.050" and toss in a Stihl 0.035" gauge since oregon don't have one.


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## heyduke (Jun 11, 2013)

BobL said:


> Yep the Husky guide is a semi-progressive one like the FOP is a semi progressive one. I haven't measured the Husky guide but have used one and I found the lowest raker setting was still too high for older cutters.
> 
> This thread discusses raker settings in some detail and from this it is clear that two raker settings are just not enough for milling to cover the range of wood hardness, B&C length, and CS power. The OP in that thread is using a 24" bar on a 3120 in softwoods and the fact that he cannot bog the saw suggests he can use an even higher raker angle than he is currently using.
> 
> To optimise cutting speed a raker guide would need to be able to set the raker angles from about 5º to say 10º in 0.5º, or at least 1º, increments. I can understand why a company would not risk selling such a product as a newbie setting the rakers to 10º risks serious of kickback especially on older cutters.



BobL-

I watched your youtube vid and read thru the links you provided. I acquired an angle finder, the kind that doesn't need batteries. the actual metal cutting was done on an oregon grinder. attached is a photo of the semi-chisel, low kickback chain that, though razor sharp, depth gauges set with the stihl tool, cut miserably. it now buzzes thru conifer and deciduous wood. the angle finder measured approximately 6 degrees. callipers measured about -.7mm on the depth gauges. i see now that i should have blown off the chain. it just cut two cookies.

View attachment 299760


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## heyduke (Jun 11, 2013)

BobL said:


> Do you mean the Stihl USG Universal Chain Sharpener
> or one of these Stihl raker setting tool
> 
> 
> ...



BobL-

the gullet width is 8mm. i just posted a photo of three teeth but didn't notice until i processed them that i should have blown off the chain. that being said, i lowered the gullets so that a 7/32 carbide cutter would produce enough hook to facilitate self feeding and used your technique and set the depth gauges to 6 degrees. i tested it on a conifer, ponderosa pine and a deciduous wood, balsam poplar, two woods i have in the fire wood pile. it cut well though i'm not completely satisfied with performance in the soft pine. that's the tool. i think it is .025" or .6mm.

it must be 0:dark thirty in perth. it's beer:30 here.


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## BobL (Jun 11, 2013)

heyduke said:


> BobL-
> 
> I watched your youtube vid and read thru the links you provided. I acquired an angle finder, the kind that doesn't need batteries. the actual metal cutting was done on an oregon grinder. attached is a photo of the semi-chisel, low kickback chain that, though razor sharp, depth gauges set with the stihl tool, cut miserably. it now buzzes thru conifer and deciduous wood. the angle finder measured approximately 6 degrees. callipers measured about -.7mm on the depth gauges. i see now that i should have blown off the chain. it just cut two cookies.



The first thing I notice about your cutters is they could use a bit more hook. 

Your raker depths are fine (I measure 6.1º) however, the raker top itself is very steep (ie has zero flat top) this means the raker can dig much further into the wood than a raker with some flat top (yes the raker does dig into the wood) which in effect produces an even great raker angle which is probably why it is cutting so well. 

I prefer to increase the hook and use some flat top on the raker because when cutter gets more worn it maintains a bit more gullet height which gives the sawdust somewhere to go. Meanwhile whatever works for you is fine.


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## heyduke (Jun 11, 2013)

BobL said:


> The first thing I notice about your cutters is they could use a bit more hook.
> 
> Your raker depths are fine (I measure 6.1º) however, the raker top itself is very steep (ie has zero flat top) this means the raker can dig much further into the wood than a raker with some flat top (yes the raker does dig into the wood) which in effect produces an even great raker angle which is probably why it is cutting so well.
> 
> I prefer to increase the hook and use some flat top on the raker because when cutter gets more worn it maintains a bit more gullet height which gives the sawdust somewhere to go. Meanwhile whatever works for you is fine.



BobL-

Thanks for taking a gander at the chain. yeah, i'd like more hook too. i'm going to order some 3/16" carbide cutters. I've never seen a 7/32" grinding wheel. also, i will pay more attention to gullet depth before i switch a chain over to timberland sharpening. to put some flat top on the rakers i would need to use two passes and two wheels dressed at different angles, not impossible. i was sort of trying to duplicate the file-o-plate raker. i'm happy that you came up with 6.1 degrees. I was trying for 6.0, close enuff for new mexico.

thanks again.


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## Philbert (Jun 11, 2013)

Interesting comment on the carbide following the gullet, even if it is mis-formed, rather than gauging off of the top of the cutter. I don't think anyone has raised this in one of these threads.

Could you 'trick' the tool by setting it up with a smaller cutter, then installing a larger cutter to re-form the gullet (or vice-versa)?

Philbert


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## heyduke (Jun 12, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Interesting comment on the carbide following the gullet, even if it is mis-formed, rather than gauging off of the top of the cutter. I don't think anyone has raised this in one of these threads.
> 
> Could you 'trick' the tool by setting it up with a smaller cutter, then installing a larger cutter to re-form the gullet (or vice-versa)?
> 
> Philbert



the only time i encountered this problem was with oregon semi-chisel chain. I don't think they are ground to a 7/64" radius. my solution was to grind the gullets deeper. the screwed up thing about that is that grinding wheels are 3/16" thick and so you have to take off some extra metal in the gullet to get a 7/32" burr to settle down low enough to produce a decent hook.

here's an interesting comment by lumberjack48:

> _What i think is funny, they tell you to use a 7/32 file, hell it doesn't fit in the cutter. This is because it wasn't sharped with a 7/32 grinder. Take a 3/16 or 5/32 file, it'll fit, i use a 5/32 file, it fits in the factory grind. This is the main reason you can never get it to cut as good as it did out of the box. _

anyway, i'm ordering a couple of 3/16 cutters to use on 3/8" chains. i'll report back.


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## jrhannum (Jun 16, 2013)

*Just dreaming ...*

I got a new Timberline unit yesterday, looked at ways to jimmy it for shallower tooth-angle. Removed the stock guide-cones and futzed with ¼”-i.d. tubing to see if one could fabricate a different cone with a guide-tube/not-concentric bore that would put the burr at 10o; used hot glue to make such a cone surrounding the tubing; showed me that perhaps Krantz & Company could make up cones with not-concentric bores to bring the burr in at 10o and at the right depth (fixed via the lock-screw dimple in the cone). There is a problem with the left-hand cone – it puts the burr where the indexing flipper lives (could one get by without the flipper? Or perhaps make an indexing device on the outboard end of the unit?). Krantz could sell a bunch of those tweaked cones to the CSM crowd.

View attachment 300532


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## jrhannum (Jun 24, 2013)

*Save up some dollars*

Got an e-mail from Krantz: a ripping chain rig is "... what we are working on right now, but we will have a different body with the 10˚ drilled straight into the body, no guides. It should be available later this year."
I used the 25o version on five cross-cut chains this weekend, seemed to straighten-out some of my filing errors; still needa gage and file the rakers, I use the guide that came with my Huski saw.


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 24, 2013)

jrhannum said:


> Got an e-mail from Krantz: a ripping chain rig is "... what we are working on right now, but we will have a different body with the 10˚ drilled straight into the body, no guides. It should be available later this year."
> I used the 25o version on five cross-cut chains this weekend, seemed to straighten-out some of my filing errors; still needa gage and file the rakers, I use the guide that came with my Huski saw.



I got mine last week and it's a bloody good bit of gear. Biggest issue in Australia is the distributors are ripping people off with the pricing over $280, and the carbides are $64 each!
So if your interested and in the land of OZ go to Treestuff. $124 and then $19 for extra carbides. Honestly when I got the Australian price there would be no way I would pay that!
After seeing close up I can see that they would have a problem getting to 10deg for ripping chains.


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## JasonMS660 (Jun 24, 2013)

jrhannum said:


> Got an e-mail from Krantz: a ripping chain rig is "... what we are working on right now, but we will have a different body with the 10˚ drilled straight into the body, no guides. It should be available later this year."
> I think they should build the guides in as they can be replaced if the carbides cut into the alloy. Otherwise the holes will get sloppier and sloppier in the body and affect accuracy. Just my two cents!


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## Philbert (Oct 11, 2016)

Cross referencing this thread to a few similar ones:

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/timberline-chainsaw-sharpeners.191747/

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-chain-sharpener.180488/

Philbert


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## pa.hunter (Oct 13, 2016)

be good if you suck at sharpening I guess ? file works for me


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## heyduke (Oct 13, 2016)

JasonMS660 said:


> I got mine last week and it's a bloody good bit of gear. Biggest issue in Australia is the distributors are ripping people off with the pricing over $280, and the carbides are $64 each!
> So if your interested and in the land of OZ go to Treestuff. $124 and then $19 for extra carbides. Honestly when I got the Australian price there would be no way I would pay that!
> After seeing close up I can see that they would have a problem getting to 10deg for ripping chains.


i don't know about shipping, customs etc. but... you might try going to the source:
http://www.timberlinesharpener.com/


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## heyduke (Oct 13, 2016)

pa.hunter said:


> be good if you suck at sharpening I guess ? file works for me


please, let us see some photographs of your work.


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## KiwiBro (Oct 14, 2016)

An idea. Take all the money spent on these tools, give it instead to people who know their stuff, to give a hand-filing clinic or two at a few GTG's. Then go forth and practice, perfect and impart that knowledge on the next generations. Knowledge and experience are worth every cent of what these tools are charging. On that note, if there is anyone in NZ who knows their **** and would like to teach others how to square file, I'd love to pay them a visit and for their time to learn from them.

Sadly, I don't know anyone who can mentor me. Quite the opposite in fact, people are coming to me for advice which shows you how much ignorance there is out there. Like me, they never had a forestry upbringing, weren't carrying dad's saws/oil or setting wedges for the old man by the time since they were 10.

Heck, even if there is someone in Oz (actually I do know a good bugger up there whose invitation I may yet take up) and a few of us fly over from NZ. $400 airfares are SFA for all the knowledge we can gain and apply to our own gigs and maybe, if we keep working at perfecting it we can teach others here when asked, keeping valuable, worthwhile, relevant skills alive.


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## BobL (Oct 14, 2016)

There has to be someone in NZ can do this. 
Or you could fly me over
Problem is I'm west coast oz so it's not going to be that easy.


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## KiwiBro (Oct 14, 2016)

We need a GTG somewhere on your East Coast and we can all pitch in to get you over there. would be $ well spent I'm certain of that.


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## heyduke (Oct 15, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> An idea. Take all the money spent on these tools, give it instead to people who know their stuff, to give a hand-filing clinic or two at a few GTG's. Then go forth and practice, perfect and impart that knowledge on the next generations. Knowledge and experience are worth every cent of what these tools are charging. On that note, if there is anyone in NZ who knows their **** and would like to teach others how to square file, I'd love to pay them a visit and for their time to learn from them.
> 
> Sadly, I don't know anyone who can mentor me. Quite the opposite in fact, people are coming to me for advice which shows you how much ignorance there is out there. Like me, they never had a forestry upbringing, weren't carrying dad's saws/oil or setting wedges for the old man by the time since they were 10.
> 
> Heck, even if there is someone in Oz (actually I do know a good bugger up there whose invitation I may yet take up) and a few of us fly over from NZ. $400 airfares are SFA for all the knowledge we can gain and apply to our own gigs and maybe, if we keep working at perfecting it we can teach others here when asked, keeping valuable, worthwhile, relevant skills alive.



files cost money too. and if you're sharpening a lot of chains, filing is too time consuming to be practical. the file is one of my favorite tools but for sharpening round ground chain, especially damaged chain, files are useless. i keep hearing tales about super sharp hand filed chains and i'm sure that like bigfoot, yeti and ufos, they're out there but you almost never see them. i have seen many guys using hand filed chains that make more smoke than chips. anyway, if a file is all you've got, that's what you'll have to use. but if you're paying the mortgage with your saws and truck, you're better off making up a new chain off your roll and throwing the dull chain in your old-chain bucket


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## Philbert (Oct 15, 2016)

Damaged chains are where a grinder shines. And rainy days, or off seasons provide the time. 

Unlike Mick Jagger, I get satisfaction from rehabilitating worn/ damaged chains. But not in the field. 

I like to have 3 chains per saw, ready to go. And will do touch up sharpening in the field; otherwise swap them out. 

Philbert


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## BobL (Oct 15, 2016)

heyduke said:


> you're better off making up a new chain off your roll and throwing the dull chain in your old-chain bucket



95% of chain problems that see them thrown in the old chain bucket are because most folks don't understand how to set rakers correctly. 
This stems from the manufacturers instructions that indicate that rakers should be set at a constant depth (e.g. 25"') relative to the cutter whereas they should be set at a constant angle relative to the cutter.
Because the cutter - raker distance changes as the cutter wears the raker depth then has to be set much greater that the nominal 25"' specified by the manufacturer.
This method is called Progressive raker setting and enables a chain to last until the cutters start breaking off from being too small.
Some of my chains end up with raker depths of over 50"' and they still cut like a new chain.


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## Philbert (Oct 15, 2016)

BobL said:


> manufacturers instructions that indicate that rakers should be set at a constant depth (e.g. 25"') . . .
> Some of my chains end up with raker depths of over 50"' and they still cut like a new chain.



Them's _BIG_ offsets! Some of my chains are not even 50" long!!!

Link to BobL's classic thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/

_**TRIGGER WARNING*** some of the guys who frequent the Political / Religious Views thread will freak out at the word 'Progressive'!!!_

Philbert


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## BobL (Oct 15, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Them's _BIG_ offsets! Some of my chains are not even 50" long!!!



Maybe its not a 'mercian thing but here and I believe it's a UK thing as well, we represent "thou" as three apostrophes or [ "' ]



> Link to BobL's classic thread:
> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
> 
> _**TRIGGER WARNING*** some of the guys who frequent the Political / Religious Views thread will freak out at the word 'Progressive'!!! _


Thanks for the warning.


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## Philbert (Oct 15, 2016)

BobL said:


> we represent "thou" as three apostrophes or [ "' ]


Good to know! Easy to confuse with 'our' system. 
Had teachers who would insisted we use the zero before the decimal 0.025 to avoid confusion; think that in some places they use a comma (,) instead of a period (.)?

Philbert


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## BobL (Oct 15, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Good to know! Easy to confuse with 'our' system.
> Had teachers who would insisted we use the zero before the decimal 0.025 to avoid confusion; think that in some places they use a comma (,) instead of a period (.)?



I was one of those teachers  - but I'm also old enough to know the non-metric/english system which is where the thou comes from


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## heyduke (Oct 16, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Them's _BIG_ offsets! Some of my chains are not even 50" long!!!
> 
> Link to BobL's classic thread:
> http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ly-progressive-depth-raker-generators.114624/
> ...


that's a great thread that can benefit anyone who wants fast cutting chains, no matter if you use a grinder, file or whatever. Thanks BobL


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