# Topping spar trees



## captainsteep (May 29, 2009)

should you top the spar tree or not, i have herd both sides of the story, when the top is still in the tree, and when it is cut off, what do you think and why!!!


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## tomtrees58 (May 29, 2009)

are you logging in the hills tom trees


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## 2dogs (May 30, 2009)

We usually use an intermidiate tree with a block and then a tail tree to anchor to. These are close together and meant to keep the skyline at a good working height. Out Koller yarder only uses a 5/8" skyline but still those 2 trees are pretty beat up when we are done, not to mention they are limbed up high. We usually take them down. On steeper sites we just anchor to a good tree or two, both at the stump.

I consider a spar tree as a completly different animal than above so maybe you could explain what you mean by the term. BTW I have neve used a spar tree.


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## clearance (May 30, 2009)

Topping trees is wrong!!! So is pruning with spurs, sheesh, haven't you guys learned anything here?:monkey:


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## yooper (May 30, 2009)

clearance said:


> Topping trees is wrong!!! So is pruning with spurs, sheesh, haven't you guys learned anything here?:monkey:



lol you tell em clearance!


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## Humptulips (May 30, 2009)

If you are actually talking about a spar tree, yes you have to take the top out. Any tree that there will be people working under has to be topped. 
Tail trees and support trees are usually not considered to have a crew working under even though there might be people working around it for brief stints so most are not topped.
I've only worked around three what I would call spar trees in my career. Set chokers on one, hung rigging in another and actually rigged and logged another. Two were head trees and one a swing tree about a thousand feet off the road.

If you are talking about that machine you showed the pictures of on here earlier I have a few thoughts. If you have no chaser and the engineer is chasing his own turns and the yarder is back far enough so that if the top snaps out it can't hit the yarder you might get by with leaving the top in it.


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## RPM (May 30, 2009)

2dogs said:


> We usually take them down. On steeper sites we just anchor to a good tree or two, both at the stump.
> 
> I consider a spar tree as a completly different animal than above so maybe you could explain what you mean by the term. BTW I have neve used a spar tree.



We call them a tail spar or back spar - anytime the rigging is up a tree (6 - 50') and not stump rigged. Only purpose is to get lift at the back end to improve your deflection. I've seen a back spar tree rigged as high as 80' for a skyline unit. These trees are supposed to be topped (WCB) and guyed back just like the tower. 

The other type of back spar we use alot when we can is a mobile backspar - either a cat or excavator - gives another 12-15' lift at the back and you don't have to change roads / rig stumps etc. Works best with a grapple yarder.

And have used the a swing tree a couple of times as Humptulips mentioned above as well .. good evening there!


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## slowp (May 30, 2009)

The theory behind topping the tail trees and intermediate support trees is this. These trees get a lot of stress on them and wiggle around a lot. Taking that weight off supposedly keeps them from wiggling more and decreases the chance that it'll break off or pull out. Since the tree is usually a second growth tree, it needs all the help it can get. When they are rigged closer to the ground, there's less leverage and they usually aren't topped. 

We have a lot of loose, pumice soil here, which isn't good for holding tree roots. The better hooktenders use twisters on every setting, which are attached to the stumps used for guying the tail tree or tail hold. Think of guying the guyline stump/tree. They take a piece of haywire, wrap it around what they want to add support to, and then wrap it around the new supporter, it is doubled, a big stick put in between the lines and then twisted tight. Sometimes the hooktender puts twisters on the twisters. I haven't seen that outfit ever pull a tail tree when working here.

Undoing the twisters is tricky.


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## hammerlogging (May 30, 2009)

Have too... probably not, because does your OSHA guy or anyone know one thing about what you are doing? Probably not. But, when in doubt, topped spars keep that top from swinging under load so that reduces the likelihood of it pulling over. Guyline anchors, likewise, better off stumps.

Much more appealing is that that sucker must be getting up and running again! Alright!


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## slowp (May 30, 2009)

Guylines are a different matter. If a tree used for guying the yarder is close enough or tall enough to hit the landing if pulled over, it HAS to be cut. I was moseying up to the landing when a tree pulled over and landed on the yarder. It was a tree that I'd put up an argument (I don't usually do this) about even marking for them to use. It was a hemlock growing out of a large hump in the ground. Then they didn't even cut it. The chaser got in my face and started yelling that I didn't mark it for them to cut. I pointed out the blue paint on the tree, and he shut up. 

They'd pulled over two guyline trees previously.

This is the closest I've ever come to calling the state safety people to come out. But if I did, everyone would get inspected, there were 2 other outfits working in that area.


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## captainsteep (May 30, 2009)

great replies everyone. I got all the answers i needed and some. the reason i asked was just what slowp said black wet ground, and keep pulling spar tree over will try slowps haywire answer. thanks


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## John Ellison (May 30, 2009)

Here is what is commonly called a spar tree at least in Washington and SE Ak. A tail tree will have a lot less lines in it and will be in the back end away from the landing. But as RPM mentioned maybe some places will call then tail spars. Lots of different terminoligy in logging.


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## Humptulips (May 30, 2009)

captainsteep said:


> great replies everyone. I got all the answers i needed and some. the reason i asked was just what slowp said black wet ground, and keep pulling spar tree over will try slowps haywire answer. thanks



If you are pulling trees over guylines are your answer. Twisters work great on stumps not so well to guy standing trees.
Use a little caution putting up a twister also. If that twister sticks gets away from you it can clean your clock.


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## John Ellison (May 30, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> If you are pulling trees over guylines are your answer. Twisters work great on stumps not so well to guy standing trees.
> Use a little caution putting up a twister also. If that twister sticks gets away from you it can clean your clock.



Hahaha thats for sure. I helped unwrap one poor soul from an out of control twister. The stick got hung in his sweatshirt.


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## Kiwilogger (May 31, 2009)

We *always* top our tailspar trees, rare as it is that we ever use one. They are a pain in the ass to rig and set up.

In the pine here in NZ, our trees are probably only around 90ft tall, and we rig our spars with the block (that the skyline goes through) at about 20 ft off the ground. If that doesn't give us the lift, then the forest owner can bloody well put another skid in. :chainsawguy:

I operate the yarder here, a TMY 70 with a 1 1/8 Sky. The tail spar is guyed back with 3 or 4 guys depending on how far out we are going to bridle (have to make sure we are bridling in lead), but the guys on the spar are only 3/4 non swaged.


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## Kiwilogger (May 31, 2009)

Oh, and we would *never* ever guy to a standing tree.

We'd get our butts whipped. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Humptulips (May 31, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> We *always* top our tailspar trees, rare as it is that we ever use one. They are a pain in the ass to rig and set up.
> 
> In the pine here in NZ, our trees are probably only around 90ft tall, and we rig our spars with the block (that the skyline goes through) at about 20 ft off the ground. If that doesn't give us the lift, then the forest owner can bloody well put another skid in. :chainsawguy:
> 
> I operate the yarder here, a TMY 70 with a 1 1/8 Sky. The tail spar is guyed back with 3 or 4 guys depending on how far out we are going to bridle (have to make sure we are bridling in lead), but the guys on the spar are only 3/4 non swaged.



That sounds like overkill to me. On larger yarders then that I've used 3/4 but rarely more then 2 guylines and I thought that was more then needed at the time. I would think 9/16 would do for that size machine and then only two unless an extreme amount of push or side pressure. You'd probably cut the tree off before you broke a guyline unless you're using tree plates.
I'd guess for tail trees I've seldom gone much over 60 feet with the average being around 40 and at that height with 3 or 4 3/4 guylines long enough to reach and tighten on a stump you would have your work cut out for you.


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## Kiwilogger (May 31, 2009)

If we use a tailspar, then we are definitely going to be bridling *a lot* of wood off the one spar. We are using northbend. Mostly it's 3 guys rather than 4. I put up to 30 tonnes of pressure on my skyline (via the tension meter), and to rig one extra guyline for the security is bugger all work, compared to the effort involved in recovering a smashed spar setup.


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## oregoncutter (May 31, 2009)

*Spar tree?*

Are we talking about spar trees, intermediate supports, lift trees, or trees as tailholds? As for guylines on any of the above when I was hooking on a swing yarder we used heavy duty blue rope to guyline any of the above. we also used a capstan winch or comealong to tension guylines for the above, or twisted them .Depending on the situation tailhold trees,lift trees, and guyline trees related to the above were rarely topped. Pick good trees, set you're guylines low, and if in doubt top em, watch Your'e turn size, and be smart about not puting too much side pull on the riggin, and You should'nt be pulling over trees. We allways topped spar, and intermediate support trees


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## oregoncutter (May 31, 2009)

For the above related guylines if memory serves me right 50 degrees is optimum.


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## slowp (May 31, 2009)

I haven't seen the untwisting of a twister, just heard horror stories. One old guy here says he will cut through the stump it is wired to just enough so it can be tilted a little, and that releases the tension on the twister line. Then it can be undone with a little less excitement. 

The strength of support trees depends on the species used, their size, and *the soil* they are rooted in. If there is a large old growth Doug fir to be used, it isn't topped because it is a much stronger tree than the usual second growth tree (usually used). Twisters can be made using standing trees to wrap to. 

A small log can be notched at both ends and wedged between the guyline stump and another tree or stump. This is another way to reinforce the guyline stump. One hooktender was doing that. It saved him from packing more line down the hill. 

I'd post some pictures of twisters but I cleaned house last weekend and can't find the thumb drive!


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## Kiwilogger (May 31, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> Are we talking about spar trees, intermediate supports, lift trees, or trees as tailholds? As for guylines on any of the above when I was hooking on a swing yarder we used heavy duty blue rope to guyline any of the above. we also used a capstan winch or comealong to tension guylines for the above, or twisted them .Depending on the situation tailhold trees,lift trees, and guyline trees related to the above were rarely topped. Pick good trees, set you're guylines low, and if in doubt top em, watch Your'e turn size, and be smart about not puting too much side pull on the riggin, and You should'nt be pulling over trees. We allways topped spar, and intermediate support trees


Hey there.

What I call a tailspar is this:

Backline tree that is guyed back with a block 20ft (or whatever) up the spar that the skyline goes through (then back to a stump). 

We only tension our spars by hand using bulldog clamps.

slowp, the method you describe using a small log between stumps we call a jill and poke. Gawd knows why, but there ya go. LOL We still twister strawline (I think you guys call it haywire) around though.

Oregoncutter, regarding the guy angle on spar trees, our best practice guidelines (NZ OSH publication) say that we should only use 40 deg between guys, and no more than a 45 from the top of the spar to the stump.


Good thread!


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## slowp (May 31, 2009)

Here's a jill poke or whatever. 










Here's a standard twister.


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## Metals406 (May 31, 2009)

I was never afforded the opportunity to use real complex rigging while I was doing high-lead. The most I ever did was a lift tree, to a tail hold. The lift tree was guyed with two lines, approx. 40° back from the direction of pull. The lift tree was not topped... As it was just outside the sale boundary (you didn't hear me say that).

I used a ******-lip (sorry, that's what they're called) to set the sky in, and it led to a tail stump or tree (can't remember which?)...

It was hard to rig, as I hand pulled the skyline into the lift tree, and didn't use a block (boss didn't give us that option)... God is that cable heavy to lift when you're 40' in the air and on spikes!!

My back and legs were sore for a week. Rigging is definitely a science, and kudos to the guys who have done a little of everything!


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## captainsteep (May 31, 2009)

outstanding info, here is what i have going on,we are out 1100 ft not to steep of ground at the bottom it flattens out for 400ft so i have climbed a nice size hardmaple 30ft up to get lift across the flats, that tree i am calling the spar tree(lift tree),in that tree i have a cable block rigged in it,so the skyline goes through it and back to a nice size maple 60ft back and rigged around the stump(3ft stump) so the trees we are using are nice size, i would say that the reason we pulled two over was wet ground and to much side pull through a thinning job (moved skyline to far up the hill,)


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## Humptulips (May 31, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> If we use a tailspar, then we are definitely going to be bridling *a lot* of wood off the one spar. We are using northbend. Mostly it's 3 guys rather than 4. I put up to 30 tonnes of pressure on my skyline (via the tension meter), and to rig one extra guyline for the security is bugger all work, compared to the effort involved in recovering a smashed spar setup.



Yea, I can see 3 or 4 guylines if you're northbending off that tail tree. Still think 3/4 is overkill. I'd drop to 5/8 at least but you know the situation better then I. 
We used to have 3/4 by 250' tail tree guylines and one of them coiled weighed 175 pounds. I could pack one then but not anymore. Joints tell me I shouldn't have done it then. That's probably the reason I'd want to drop a size in guyline.LOL
Be a kick to travel down your way and look it over but doubt that'll happen. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures. That would be sweet.


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## Humptulips (May 31, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Hey there.
> 
> What I call a tailspar is this:
> 
> ...



I've seen clamps used and used them a few times on tail tree guylines. Don't like them. Too much junk to pack around. My way was to tighten by hand or if too long a guyline with a comealong. Then I would put three wraps and three half hitches on the stump. Sometimes I would use a timber hitch but that can be hard on line so only used it in a pinch. Always tried for three wraps first though.

Never knew anyone to start measuring angles on guylines. That sounds fine in the safety book but in practise experience tells you if it will work. Should be able to tell by the look of it.


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## oregoncutter (Jun 1, 2009)

*Now that's ahrd work.*



Metals406 said:


> It was hard to rig, as I hand pulled the skyline into the lift tree, and didn't use a block (boss didn't give us that option)... God is that cable heavy to lift when you're 40' in the air and on spikes!!
> 
> My back and legs were sore for a week. Rigging is definitely a science, and kudos to the guys who have done a little of everything!



I have rigged a few trees in my days on yarder sides, and allways used a block in my lift trees , ( tree rigged high for lift near the tailhold). I know I physicall couldn't and can't lift a skyline very high especially when it's out a ways. I allways used haywire to pull my skylines, and haulbacks to where I wanted them. So my skullbuckets off to Metals406!!! 
I agree with humptulips quote("Never knew anyone to start measuring angles on guylines. That sounds fine in the safety book but in practise experience tells you if it will work. Should be able to tell by the look of it.")
My eye was my measuring device, and having a standard or suggestion is helpful sometimes in the real world for example if I was real busy short yarding, and alot of rigging, theyd feel nice and send a (pimp) or hooktender helper after picking out my trees and or stumps I could tell a guy to set the guyline angles at a 40-50 degrees and it helped them to remember. (of course I allways double checked their work it was my ass, and consience if things were to go South


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## Metals406 (Jun 1, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> I have rigged a few trees in my days on yarder sides, and allways used a block in my lift trees , ( tree rigged high for lift near the tailhold). I know I physicall couldn't and can't lift a skyline very high especially when it's out a ways. I allways used haywire to pull my skylines, and haulbacks to where I wanted them. So my skullbuckets off to Metals406!!!



I hear ya there... Pulled all the stuff up into that fir with a bloomin' rope... Thought the boss was trying to kill me!

By the time I got that skyline up there, I had to just hold it for a minute or two, before reaching out to hang it in the ******-lip. The whole time the lead hookers asking what's taking so long, and the boss is on the radio hollering to hurry up!

Hanging that skyline that way is dumb, and if I was in my right mind at the time, I would have told them to kiss my shiny white butt! With all that weight on my lower back, it felt like my spine was trying to spit out onto the ground!!

Not a recommended procedure!!


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 27, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Yea, I can see 3 or 4 guylines if you're northbending off that tail tree. Still think 3/4 is overkill. I'd drop to 5/8 at least but you know the situation better then I.
> We used to have 3/4 by 250' tail tree guylines and one of them coiled weighed 175 pounds. I could pack one then but not anymore. Joints tell me I shouldn't have done it then. That's probably the reason I'd want to drop a size in guyline.LOL
> Be a kick to travel down your way and look it over but doubt that'll happen. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures. That would be sweet.


If you ever are over this side of the globe, message me, there's always a bed for a logger here, as well as a choker to set.


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 27, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I've seen clamps used and used them a few times on tail tree guylines. Don't like them. Too much junk to pack around. My way was to tighten by hand or if too long a guyline with a comealong.


It's surely easier to pack 4x 2 ounce bulldog clamps, than a 30 pound comealong.


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## Humptulips (Jun 28, 2009)

If I was ever to get down your way I guess I would have to bring you a comealong. They only wiegh about 7 pounds around here. Mostly I tightened by hand. Only occasionally had to use a comealong like on a particularly long one. Steep ground in order to get the right angle I've sometimes had to go out a long ways. Once about 400 feet. That was a very tall tail tree also. Really the exception though. 95% tightened by hand.


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 28, 2009)

I have to admit to you, hump, I haven't done a whole hell of a lot of working with tail spars. A few I guess, but still less than 20 in all my logging. I guess ya do what you learnt from others, and what ya know works, but I'm always open to learn sommit new.

You just tie 'em off like you do with strawline on a twister?


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 28, 2009)

:censored:

I mean haywire.

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## oregoncutter (Jun 28, 2009)

*comealongs*



Humptulips said:


> If I was ever to get down your way I guess I would have to bring you a comealong. They only wiegh about 7 pounds around here. Mostly I tightened by hand. Only occasionally had to use a comealong like on a particularly long one. Steep ground in order to get the right angle I've sometimes had to go out a long ways. Once about 400 feet. That was a very tall tail tree also. Really the exception though. 95% tightened by hand.



:agree2:Years ago I worked for a siderod that insisted on me using a gas powered capstan winch, it was a heavy undependable little bastard of a tool that got left in the riggin truck unless he was at the job site. Mostly twisted em with a big limb, or used a comealong and clamps, or if there wasn't one good tree or stump to tie off to I would take haywire and put a twister between two or more stumps for strength and then tie off to the lead one.


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## Humptulips (Jun 29, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> I have to admit to you, hump, I haven't done a whole hell of a lot of working with tail spars. A few I guess, but still less than 20 in all my logging. I guess ya do what you learnt from others, and what ya know works, but I'm always open to learn sommit new.
> 
> You just tie 'em off like you do with strawline on a twister?



Kiwi,
Funny thing, where I started in the woods always called it strawline and it stuck with me so I guess we have that in common.
When putting up a tail tree guyline I would pull them up tight as I could get them by hand, often would have a couple feet of belly but they don't have to be fiddle string tight. When the skyline picks up the tree will come ahead and thighten the guyline. Anyway pull up by hand tight and then I would put three wraps on the stump, notched of course, then three half hitches. Pretty quick and easy on a stump. Kind of a pain on a standing tree. I used every excuse I could to fall the guyline stump trees. I have on occasion used a timber hitch but it is really hard on the line. I don't like it!
Real long guylines you just can't get it tight enough by hand. My system on these was to put two notches on the stump. Short strap with the comealong on it in the lower notch to a small rigging chain on the guyline. Pick up the slack and then put your wraps and half hitches in the upper notch. Slack off the comealong and you would lose a foot maybe, still tight enough.
Twisters work great on stumps, not worth a darn for guylines.
Very few times that I have bended off a tail tree like you mentioned. Mostly shotgun or dropline carriage so mostly went with two guylines. Bending, now those were the days. Don't see it anymore.


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 29, 2009)

My boss has just ordered a brand new motorised slack pulling carriage from a company over on your island. 

An acme, S28. Can't wait. Apart from a mechanical dropline carriage on a swinger I drove for a while, this will be the first carriage I've ever operated (except a shottie carriage).

Carriages aren't big over here, people seem to think they're all too hard. :monkey:

Northbending, scabbing and shotgunning are the predominant rigs used.

:greenchainsaw:


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## Humptulips (Jun 29, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> My boss has just ordered a brand new motorised slack pulling carriage from a company over on your island.
> 
> An acme, S28. Can't wait. Apart from a mechanical dropline carriage on a swinger I drove for a while, this will be the first carriage I've ever operated (except a shottie carriage).
> 
> ...



Explain scabbing, never heard that term.

I have mixed feelings on the dropline carriages. If the wood is thick and you don't have all these leave trees the enviros have saddled us with you will get more wood shotgunning. Never did like the mechanical dropline carriage on the swing yarders. Too hard on lines and not found of the logging system, a lot of work in the layouts and it's sort of limited.

Never used an Acme but talked to a lot of guys that have and they seemd to think they were OK. I've just worked around Bowmans and Eagles. The Bowmans are a real log getter but fragile. The Eagles at least the kind without a drum which is what I have used are very tough. It can be a bit of a learning process when you first have to adjust the break but not bad to work on. They are very good thinning but can seem slow in the clearcut.
I will say this I really appreciated them when tailholts were scarse.


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## Kiwilogger (Jun 30, 2009)

Scabbing, or scab skyline. Where the haulback goes out to the backline, back to the rigging, and there is a block joined by a short chain which rides on the non-working side of your haulback to give lift.

Regarding the carriages, yep, shotgunning is awesome, but we'd be lucky to get one setting we can shotgun in a year. 

The acme carriage we're getting is a clamping slackpuller. No internal drum, weighs in at under 2000 pounds. I've talked to one guy who has a tmy 70 like us, and is using the S28. He reckons he has increased production by 15% after only 3 months of using it. He is also now running a 3/4" swaged mainrope, and only 2 chokers, instead of a 7/8" main with 3. Still got the 1 1/8 sky. I'm not game to go down to 3/4 main though, we're in pretty decent wood, around the 2.5 ton piece size, and the bush we're moving into in a few months is huge wood, 3.5 ton piece size.

I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this carriage.


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## Metals406 (Jun 30, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Scabbing, or scab skyline. Where the haulback goes out to the backline, back to the rigging, and there is a block joined by a short chain which rides on the non-working side of your haulback to give lift.
> 
> Regarding the carriages, yep, shotgunning is awesome, but we'd be lucky to get one setting we can shotgun in a year.
> 
> ...



Well at least someone in the world is still allowed to log in the juice (juice is a term for big, nice wood).


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## Humptulips (Jun 30, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Scabbing, or scab skyline. Where the haulback goes out to the backline, back to the rigging, and there is a block joined by a short chain which rides on the non-working side of your haulback to give lift.
> 
> Regarding the carriages, yep, shotgunning is awesome, but we'd be lucky to get one setting we can shotgun in a year.
> 
> ...



We would call that Polocking or grabinsky or different versions of that word, basically anything with an 'insky on the end.

I would really advise against reducing the size of your skyline. Your instincts are right on the money. You can really put a lot of strain on the skyline when you start to pull from the side and you definitely don't want to break it. Aside from the bad that you're used to having from a broken skyline you will apt to have a wrecked carriage. With that kind of money riding on the skyline you have to be just a bit more carefull.
In my experience you will be quite happy with it if you have decent lift. When I say decent lift I mean enough but not to much. A lot of lift like a 100 feet or more can really eat up the time spitting slack out of the carriage. 50 feet or there abouts is perfect. Strange to think you can have too much lift but it is true.
You might ask your friend if he is running two sets of chokers and presetting or if they are setting them hot. I can't see how you could increase production unless you preset. It can work very good on the right show.


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## oregoncutter (Jul 1, 2009)

*carriages*

I have worked with Bowmans with the internal drum, Eagles, and eaglettes, as well as the clamping acme carriages. I prefer the acme over the bowmans, they have less moving parts, require less maintenance, use alot less diesel per hour, and are substantially lighter. Alot of Yarder operators complain about the carriages with an internal drum and drop line because they can't allways see and control the initial pull, and can't control how hard the drop line from the carriage is pulling, but that doesen't matter much with a competent rigginslinger. The trouble we used to have with the Bowmans was You have to keep up on and make sure the dropline isn't getting fouled on the drum it makes a hell of a mess when it does especially with a turn on it, if everyonce in awhile You hooked a turn spooled You're cable out, and then pulled the carriage back to the turn it took care of the fouling problems. and then there was only two choices for speed up and down. I can't complain much about the acme carriages, just keep up on making sure You're clamps are adjusted properly, and shim them when You need to, also with the ones I worked with the bolts for the skyline clamps had a tendency too back off before anyother fasteners, so we used to go through and check all the fasteners for the clamps in the morning, and when we greased it 2 or 3 times a week. Another thing to keep in mind is those acmes are less stable sitting on the ground than a Bowman or Eagle so I'd make for damn sure when You bring it in to fuel, service, change roads, or shut it down that You set it down on as flat a spot as You can, and anchor it with the haywire drum, it's not pretty even if they just flop over on someone. I would'nt skimp on skyline (mainline) diameter either. We used to run between 6 and 10 chokers presetting with ours just depended on the wood we were in and the manpower, and a rigginslinger that wasn't too greedy.


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## Mountainman (Jul 2, 2009)

I read the first page, and it's getting late, so please pardon this question if it has already been touched on. According to the GREAT Finley Hays, it's not a good idea to rig a tree unless you 'thunk' it with an axe along the way as you climb it, to listen for hollow or rotten spots. I'm curious. Is this still done when rigging a spar?


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## oregoncutter (Jul 2, 2009)

*thunking?*

One of the other more experienced guys on here at hookin may better answer that than me. I would allways look it over real good for any obvious signs of poor roots, or signs that it may be dying. I never done any thunkin, but I didn't tend hook all that long either. I suppose if You top it You''ll find out real quick if it's solid or not at that point I never did rig anything rotten, but I have worked for guys in the past that did.


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## Mountainman (Jul 2, 2009)

I have never topped a spar, but with respect, I have a hunch that if you find out that it's rotten while topping one, it may be too late, eh?


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## Humptulips (Jul 3, 2009)

I imagine that would apply more to old growth then 2nd growth. Probably a good idea but I never did it unless the tree looked worrisome.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 3, 2009)

Copy that, tulips. 

We're in plantation forest here, so it doesn't really apply to us either.

We go mark out our spars before the trees are felled, obviously, but as it's clearfell, you'd hope you had it right. 

My breaker outs (you guys call 'em riggin slingers)set up 2 spar tees today, I'll send them down the hill on monday with my camera, and post a couple of pics next week.


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## slowp (Jul 3, 2009)

It's all second growth here. We (and I do too) mostly look at how the tree is rooted in the ground, and for any rot or weakness indicators. There are certain species that are more desirable than say, a Western Hemlock. Doug-fir is the best to use here. 

If the hooktender is a tree topping one, I'll maybe mark trees to be felled that are near the tail tree so the top doesn't hit another tree and spring back. We do 100% thinnings. The hooktender going now doesn't top his tail trees much. But he does put lots of twisters on the stump anchor.


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## Mountainman (Jul 3, 2009)

My dad had one ancient International cable blade dozer (TD-21, I think?) at Vail that he felt was just about worthless in that day and age. So it lived its final days in the woods as a tail hold for a grapple yarder. In that application, it worked quite well.

Ever hear about the early days of rigging, when the blocks were lubed by oil, in oil cups? As the story went, someone had to fill the oil cups about twice a day, and you could always tell who worked the landing, because their clothes were covered with spots of oil. I imagine they were glad to see the advent of the grease fitting.

We take so much for granted these days....


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## Humptulips (Jul 3, 2009)

Mountainman said:


> My dad had one ancient International cable blade dozer (TD-21, I think?) at Vail that he felt was just about worthless in that day and age. So it lived its final days in the woods as a tail hold for a grapple yarder. In that application, it worked quite well.
> 
> Ever hear about the early days of rigging, when the blocks were lubed by oil, in oil cups? As the story went, someone had to fill the oil cups about twice a day, and you could always tell who worked the landing, because their clothes were covered with spots of oil. I imagine they were glad to see the advent of the grease fitting.
> 
> We take so much for granted these days....



Hate to be a spoilsport but I think a little wrong. The blocks with the cups took grease and were called strangely enough grease cups. I had one but traded it away. The bigger blocks like high lead blocks , haulback tree blocks ( like goes at the head tree), loading blocks and moving blocks were oil blocks. I used a couple of these at different times. They were old. I can't say when they stopped making the oil blocks but a long time ago. They had a plug on the side and you filled it up with oil. Seems I remember they took about a gallon but I imagine that varied with the size of block. One was a big fall block and the other was a smaller moving block. Used them northbending and southbending. 

Mountainman,
I asked my Dad if he might have known your father but the name didn't ring a bell with him. I had an uncle that worked at Vale and probably knew him but he has passed on.


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## Mountainman (Jul 4, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Hate to be a spoilsport but I think a little wrong. The blocks with the cups took grease and were called strangely enough grease cups. I had one but traded it away. The bigger blocks like high lead blocks , haulback tree blocks ( like goes at the head tree), loading blocks and moving blocks were oil blocks. I used a couple of these at different times. They were old. I can't say when they stopped making the oil blocks but a long time ago. They had a plug on the side and you filled it up with oil. Seems I remember they took about a gallon but I imagine that varied with the size of block. One was a big fall block and the other was a smaller moving block. Used them northbending and southbending.
> 
> Mountainman,
> I asked my Dad if he might have known your father but the name didn't ring a bell with him. I had an uncle that worked at Vale and probably knew him but he has passed on.



I stand corrected, and I appreciate it. Thanks for asking your Dad about mine. I'm sure they both stomped on some of the same ground at some point. Vail has been gutted as well. When I was there in 2002, the bastards had even leveled all but one small portion of that beautiful old shop building that had been there since 1927. That's where I first learned how to weld. About the only thing left from the old days was the water tower. Even most of the old fire trucks were gone.

Darius Kinsey sure left us all a grand legacy. I think most of the woods bosses knew those days would not last forever, because I have heard that the one time they allowed anyone to take a break, was when Mr. Kinsey showed up to take photos. I'm glad I at least got a taste of it.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)




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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

Need to shorten the strops for the block, I know, but thats how we rig our spar trees here in NZ.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

Stumps on the spar.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

Some big bridling off our spar. About a 200ft bridle.

Northbending.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

Another pic of the rigging bridled out. The small line shackled to the rider block is our tagline (slackpulling line), we attach it to the rider block to effect bridling from any where on the sky by simply holding the tag.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

My machine...


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

Here's a turn been pulled up (from a decent 200ft bridle) to the sky, on the way in.

Pity it's a crappy head pull, but you get to see a shot of the rigging, and how the ropes are rigged etc...


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 22, 2009)

A shot of the skid...


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## Humptulips (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, it certainly is beautiful country. Thanks for the pics.
You make me have to think about the terminology. Little different here but basically the same.
A couple questions. Why the two straps in the tree instead of one a little larger? I see you have spreader straps on the butt rigging. Like them? Never used the tagline like that. I'm sure most of the engineers I've worked with would flip if you suggested it. Can't say I'd use it even if I could. Heard about it but don't really see the advantage. Just as easy to move a sideblock if done right.


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## tramp bushler (Jul 23, 2009)

*I hate twisters ,i really hate !! Twisters*

Thanks for the pictures Kiwi ...... How many trees a day do you guys get .... I like how you guys use the lift tree guylines with clamps instead of twisters ....... I,ve had to rig lift trees with no pimp using 15"youngs , and had to use strawline as my pass ropes .. .. But having a pimp and a nice little riggin block or a Tommy Moore block sure makes the climbers job ALOT FUNNER .................
.
. I only worked high lead , but mostly used a Polack block ... and quite a bit of shotgunnin .... I really like shotgunning . Nice and quiet ....... and a lot less stuff going on overhead ... Needs the right setting tho ...


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 23, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Well, it certainly is beautiful country. Thanks for the pics.
> You make me have to think about the terminology. Little different here but basically the same.
> A couple questions. Why the two straps in the tree instead of one a little larger? I see you have spreader straps on the butt rigging. Like them? Never used the tagline like that. I'm sure most of the engineers I've worked with would flip if you suggested it. Can't say I'd use it even if I could. Heard about it but don't really see the advantage. Just as easy to move a sideblock if done right.



Cheers mate, all countries have their beauty spots, it's just ours are everywhere you look. 

As to the 2 straps (I guess you're talking about the strops that hold the block up in the spar) , I agree. In actual fact they are 7/8" swaged, and in my opinion, just the one that size would be enough, although by the rules we actually have to use two 7/8", or one 1 1/8" strop.

Regarding the "spreader bars" on the rigging, we used to use big assed logging chains around 7 metres long, attached to the swivels on the butt rigging. Without the bars in there, it would be hells own job getting the chains untangled when you drop the rigging down. We changed to choker strops about 6 months ago. Once we get the carriage, it'll all change. Shorter choker strops (and no rigging of course) etc. So yeah, they are extremely good with chains, but I also don't see any disadvantage with chokers. They are actually 4 inch solid bars, and add a decent bit of weight when you are dropping the rigging in a deep gut over the other side of a ridge, so do come in handy for that too. 

Tag-lining with northbend is awesome, particularly where we are logging at the moment with the sky about 400 yards past the backline up into some standing native bush, and we have to do huge sky shifts. Very few stumps etc. You can bridle a straight line from the yarder to the working block. No way you could that without a series of tail shifts. We use it a lot when we have to do big sky shifts.
The other great thing about tagging, is that you can whack the sky up the centre of a setting, bridle out one side, flip the ropes around, and bridle out the other side all with minimum shifting.

Where we are Hump, there's no way of using a backline machine, very few decent solid sky stumps on the backline, (stony soil, shallow rooted trees) and we do what works for us. Pretty much all our stumps have to be tied back

Us Kiwi's mate, are the kings of improvisation. 

This country was built with number 8 wire, and haybale twine.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 23, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Thanks for the pictures Kiwi ...... How many trees a day do you guys get .... I like how you guys use the lift tree guylines with clamps instead of twisters ....... I,ve had to rig lift trees with no pimp using 15"youngs , and had to use strawline as my pass ropes .. .. But having a pimp and a nice little riggin block or a Tommy Moore block sure makes the climbers job ALOT FUNNER .................
> .
> . I only worked high lead , but mostly used a Polack block ... and quite a bit of shotgunnin .... I really like shotgunning . Nice and quiet ....... and a lot less stuff going on overhead ... Needs the right setting tho ...


Hey mate. On an average day we'll pull 150 trees, somedays more, some less. In the best creamy logging I could pull 300 a day, but that would be rare.

We use a nice little snatch block to lift ALL the gear up the tree to our climber. Our block up there is a 15" ropemaster, so I know what you're saying. I watched the Axmen show on telly the other night, and this dude was setting up a spar, and he had to lift all that junk up the tree himself. Poor bugger. That's what I call doing it hard!

We do a bit of scab skyline here too (polack system you guys call it), suits short pulls out to about 900 yards with a decent bit of lift. Easy shifts, and we can really pump it out in the right setting.

And yes, shotgunning is the holy grail of logging...


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## tramp bushler (Jul 23, 2009)

*A Flop Over*

. Kiwi . what you described as switching the lines around , we call in High Lead a FLOP OVER .. Nice fast way to change roads , and with the right ground , logs and crew it is a good money maker .. Use it sometimes if the hook tender has a lot of work getting set up for some big change in the back end and it will take him quite some time to get ready for a road change ..... Or it,s used alot on the 1st road change at a new setting (ie) new time towering up the yarder . ....


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## Humptulips (Jul 23, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Cheers mate, all countries have their beauty spots, it's just ours are everywhere you look.
> 
> As to the 2 straps (I guess you're talking about the strops that hold the block up in the spar) , I agree. In actual fact they are 7/8" swaged, and in my opinion, just the one that size would be enough, although by the rules we actually have to use two 7/8", or one 1 1/8" strop.
> 
> ...



I find myself laughing at myself while trying to understand the difference in terminology. Had to reread it several times. I still don't undestand what a "backline machine" is though.

I think the machines I worked on that tagline would be wrapped up in the turn before long. Either a good machine or a talented engineer you've got down there, maybe both. I always would set up my haulback on a north bend so that I was continually working back or dropping in. That way I could change roads while the chaser was unhooking the turn. No time lost and then as you say a little differently we would flop over when one side was logged out.

Ever use a sucker block. That would be when you are hanging back beyond your last log quite aways and shotgunning. You hang a block on the bight of the skyline and pull the skyline to the side with the haulback. You can get some pretty wide roads when the tail stumps are scarce but you do need god lift.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 24, 2009)

Hey hump, I AM the "yarder engineer." :hmm3grin2orange: And I've got a good machine. I like to keep it to a high standard always. No one can ever pull wood, no matter how good you are, if the machine breaks down. 

The tag never gets wrapped in a turn, because the clutch for the tag drum (it's a wichita- not sure of the spelling) is adjustable, so you set it at a certain pressure, say about 15-18 psi. When you pull in a drag, oops, I mean a turn  , the tag drum actually turns slightly faster than the mainrope drum, so keeps slightly ahead of it, and the clutch slips so you don't put bugger all pressure on the tagline.

What I call a backline machine is a tractor/dozer set up to run the ropes on the backline. When we are northbending and we can get the tractor on the backline I'd have the sky going over the blade, under the tractor, and connects onto the drawbar, and the working block goes on the corner of the blade attached via a shackle. I'd then either have the haulback spread at the backline, or I might just block it out at the front, and may even just run one block on the backline. Just all depends on the situation. When you are scabbing, (grabinski/polack) the tractor is even better, a block on each corner of the blade and you're in to it. I enjoy manual shifting, but man, can you smoke the wood when you are mobile on the backline!


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## Humptulips (Jul 24, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Hey hump, I AM the "yarder engineer." :hmm3grin2orange: And I've got a good machine. I like to keep it to a high standard always. No one can ever pull wood, no matter how good you are, if the machine breaks down.
> 
> The tag never gets wrapped in a turn, because the clutch for the tag drum (it's a wichita- not sure of the spelling) is adjustable, so you set it at a certain pressure, say about 15-18 psi. When you pull in a drag, oops, I mean a turn  , the tag drum actually turns slightly faster than the mainrope drum, so keeps slightly ahead of it, and the clutch slips so you don't put bugger all pressure on the tagline.
> 
> What I call a backline machine is a tractor/dozer set up to run the ropes on the backline. When we are northbending and we can get the tractor on the backline I'd have the sky going over the blade, under the tractor, and connects onto the drawbar, and the working block goes on the corner of the blade attached via a shackle. I'd then either have the haulback spread at the backline, or I might just block it out at the front, and may even just run one block on the backline. Just all depends on the situation. When you are scabbing, (grabinski/polack) the tractor is even better, a block on each corner of the blade and you're in to it. I enjoy manual shifting, but man, can you smoke the wood when you are mobile on the backline!



Ahh, a tailhold cat. When we get done discussing logging we can write a Kiwi to Northwest logger dictionary.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 24, 2009)

Ha! 

My wife is always asking me if I'm done talking trees yet. :hmm3grin2orange:

Hasn't happened so far. LOL~!


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## hammerlogging (Jul 24, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Ha!
> 
> My wife is always asking me if I'm done talking trees yet. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Hasn't happened so far. LOL~!



Heard that... same here.

I caught the essential NZ phrasery in there, "bugger all"... like it.

I work for an outfit with a TMY70 but a 53' lattice tower instead. But we're not running it right now. I've still got a little deciphering on those rigging picks to figure out what all you've done, I haven't been around the cable logging all that long but its abilities are greatly needed here in Appalachia. 99% of it is dozer/skidder logged, even our steady 60% slopes. Stupid, but leaves a lot of room for progress!


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 24, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> Heard that... same here.
> 
> I caught the essential NZ phrasery in there, "bugger all"... like it.
> 
> I work for an outfit with a TMY70 but a 53' lattice tower instead. But we're not running it right now. I've still got a little deciphering on those rigging picks to figure out what all you've done, I haven't been around the cable logging all that long but its abilities are greatly needed here in Appalachia. 99% of it is dozer/skidder logged, even our steady 60% slopes. Stupid, but leaves a lot of room for progress!


I learnt to drive haulers on a tmy45 lattice tower. Only 3 guy's, single speed trans, no reverse. Good machine to learn on, quite forgiving. The 70's are easier and more fun to drive.

Did they put the lattice tower on your tmy aftermarket, and why? Tower fall over?

My tower has only 4 guys, which sucks a bit, but I recently found in Australia a TMY70 5 guy machine with the swivelling guyrope hat on the top of the tower. The machine was burnt out under the cab. It's running a detroit V8 and twin disc 5spd trans exactly like ours. They only want $AUD70k for it. Our tower has the fixed guy hat, and you must be more precise in positioning your hauler in relation to your 2 centre guys. I'd love the extra guy too. half the amount of turns. I'm busy trying to talk the Bossman into buying it. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Humptulips (Jul 25, 2009)

I worked on one of the earliest thunderbirds, not sure the number but it had a 40 foot lattice work boom. 1 1/8 skyline amd 3/4 skidding lines and 5/8 haulback. It had two skidding drums side by side that interlocked for using a mechanical dropline carriage. We never used it that way though. Usually used one of the skidding drums as a snap guy.
It was pretty good for a small machine. This was about 25 years ago.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 25, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I worked on one of the earliest thunderbirds, not sure the number but it had a 40 foot lattice work boom. 1 1/8 skyline amd 3/4 skidding lines and 5/8 haulback. It had two skidding drums side by side that interlocked for using a mechanical dropline carriage. We never used it that way though. Usually used one of the skidding drums as a snap guy.
> It was pretty good for a small machine. This was about 25 years ago.


Sounds like a tmy45, except our 45 had only a 1" sky, 2x 3/4 main (skidding line), and 3/4 tail.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 25, 2009)

My understanding is that it was built by Thuinderbird just like that, mayb e they made 2 or 3 of them. We're the second owners.

Volume per acre is a challenge with yarding here. Hence why our smaller super mobile yarder may be more appropriate in many more circumstances because setup tiome is shorter and easier, smaller crew to operate, etc. Even with it, we have prebunched under the skyline and used it instead of a long skid. I'd like to do that with the 70- bunching under parallel corridors, corridors spaced 600' apart- jammer log (i.e. tong thrower with chokers)/shovel to under the corridors. Log out a big valley that way, no skid, minimal dozed skid roads (i.e. "cat trails")


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## oregoncutter (Jul 25, 2009)

*Thunderbird Yarders.*

I spent a fair amount of time under a tsy 2000, and a tsy 70, the 70 could really pull some wood. I have never worked around a swing Yarder that did'nt have tracks under it, I have worked a few towers that were trailer mounted though. What's the point of not having tracks under a swing yarder like the one in Kiwis pictures, other than easier to move maybe on the road.? Also I'd like to say to kiwi that's pretty country, it looks alot like south western Oregon here.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 25, 2009)

oregoncutter said:


> I spent a fair amount of time under a tsy 2000, and a tsy 70, the 70 could really pull some wood. I have never worked around a swing Yarder that did'nt have tracks under it, I have worked a few towers that were trailer mounted though. What's the point of not having tracks under a swing yarder like the one in Kiwis pictures, other than easier to move maybe on the road.? Also I'd like to say to kiwi that's pretty country, it looks alot like south western Oregon here.


That's not a swinger, OC. But I prefer tracks under any yarder, swinger or not.


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## Humptulips (Jul 26, 2009)

Rubber tires can be real good if you have a lot of long moves. Lowboys are expensive. You do need some good roads though.
I hate swing yarders. If I never see another one it would suit me just fine.
Hows that for a line to get an argument going and keep the thread going.


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## Kiwilogger (Jul 26, 2009)

Yeah, I guess they have there advantages. Our tmy can do about 70km/h on the road. Scary, but!

Tracks are better in terms of turning your hauler and stuff, way more stable and so you can leave the tower at full extension even if the skid is a bit dodgy. Dropping the tower is a pain just to turn.

I like swingers better'n towers, they're heaps more fun to drive. Way more fun than a tower. 



How's that for the beginnings of a good argy....?


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## tramp bushler (Jul 26, 2009)

. . Swing yarders are fun to watch work , And it,s great for the engineer to do the loggin . I hate chasing on them ..,. Always having to move the coiling block ........ Big towers are the nicest .. Big wood , Huge setting.. When you start a new road. It gets nice and busy but with some saneness , When the road is almost done ,some coffee drinkin time ......


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## Humptulips (Jul 26, 2009)

Kiwilogger said:


> Yeah, I guess they have there advantages. Our tmy can do about 70km/h on the road. Scary, but!
> 
> Tracks are better in terms of turning your hauler and stuff, way more stable and so you can leave the tower at full extension even if the skid is a bit dodgy. Dropping the tower is a pain just to turn.
> 
> ...



Driving a yarder? We're talking logging not cruising on friday night.
Need to put you out on the backend for a few days and you'd see why I dislike them. Three, four times the work, maybe more, almost always have to rig tail trees. You need good stumps so don't think you'll get away from that by getting away from a skyline. Extremely hard on lines. You will become an expert splicer if you work on one very long. All of this and you will get way less production then if you had a skyline up. Before you say anything I know you can run a skyline on a swing yarder but the drums are not built for it. Poor skyline machine at best. To top it all you will pay double for a swing yarder over a small tower.

On that small T-bird I worked on I could go 90 degrees or a little more without turning. How far can you go on that 70?


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## oregoncutter (Jul 26, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Rubber tires can be real good if you have a lot of long moves. Lowboys are expensive. You do need some good roads though.
> I hate swing yarders. If I never see another one it would suit me just fine.
> Hows that for a line to get an argument going and keep the thread going.



:agree2: I love Yarders as long as I am not working under one. Worked under a ty90 , and some sort of madill tower setting chokers as a kid, then chased alot around a couple of tsy70s, pulled riggin and hooked a little under the 70s as well. I agree a swing yarder will keep a hooktender reeal busy, and a hand processing chaser, short yarding, and making an endless amount of coils, notching, and changing, and picking guyline stumps, pulling guylines around. ( man I don't miss that much). I do still take on chasing jobs, if I can't get enough cutting contracts to stay busy. I guess I like any yarder because without em there probably wouldn't be much of a need for me. Ever had to upright a fellen over swing yarder?


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## Humptulips (Jul 26, 2009)

Never tiped one over but I was standing along side the drums inspecting the lines when we broke both gantry straps. Boom sure hit the ground fast. Straps were less then a 6 months old. Line shop hadn't cleaned the acid off when they poured the babbit in the Ds. Corroded. Luckily no one was in the chute so nobody was hurt.


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## oregoncutter (Jul 27, 2009)

*Makes You realize just how mortal You are!*



Humptulips said:


> Never tiped one over but I was standing along side the drums inspecting the lines when we broke both gantry straps. Boom sure hit the ground fast. Straps were less then a 6 months old. Line shop hadn't cleaned the acid off when they poured the babbit in the Ds. Corroded. Luckily no one was in the chute so nobody was hurt.



Never spent that much time on the landing working around the towers, must have been a tower yarder? I know those tsy 70s run two cables on drums, and 2 big ass bolts for the boom but with as much stress as they take I wouldn't count on the bolts much. I've been on the landing for two swing yarders coming over the first one was a result of too heavy a turn and we were running a motorized bowman internal drum dropline carriage so sometimes You're at the mercy of the rigginslinger, and an idiot of an operator, the tailhold tree pulled over and he set the brake on the skidding drum, broke the left guyline cable,slacked the center and right cables, and ended up on his nose, gantry in the dirt nobody got hurt too bad, other than he was rattled, and he about dumped 75ft of guyline on me as I ran straight toward the shovel (somebody told him if you are going to tip, dump you're guylines so You don't snap over). The second was an arrogant hooktender that couldn't pick a good stump if his life depended on it( despite lot's of remarks about his por choice of stumps), soft dirt landing in the winter long roads lot's of lift, plenty of stumps, rocks, and bluffs and again another bowman carriage, he was using a about a 24'' poorly rooted second growth stump on the left, a rotten to the core old growth about 5 ft for the center, and a poorly set d6 for the right guyline, got in a hard pull and the front right corner of the yarder dipped down hard pulled the left stump, guyline went right through the rotten one, yarder operator started sucking in the d6, and considering went over fairly gentle on his side the gantry got hung up on the boom of the loader just forward of the cab, and that was about all that kept him from going on down the hill. I was good and clear packing coils to the riggin truck a short ways off when it happened. The real work is the cleanup, and setup to get em greasy side down again, not to mention the shaken up operators, and lost time and money.


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## Humptulips (Jul 27, 2009)

I hear you about the clean up afterwards. We pulled the top out of a Washington 127 once. Mainline fairlead landed a couple hundred feet down the hill. Haulback fairlead about 40 feet off the landing. Cut the haulback off but the skyline just sidewashed over the top of the tube. What a mess! Other then that and broken lines probably the worst thing I done was tore off a leveling jack while moving. Oh, and a few broken tracks on Madill tank mounts. Allways had trouble with those tank undercarriages. They are made to breakdown.


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## oregoncutter (Jul 27, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I hear you about the clean up afterwards. We pulled the top out of a Washington 127 once. Mainline fairlead landed a couple hundred feet down the hill. Haulback fairlead about 40 feet off the landing. Cut the haulback off but the skyline just sidewashed over the top of the tube. What a mess! Other then that and broken lines probably the worst thing I done was tore off a leveling jack while moving. Oh, and a few broken tracks on Madill tank mounts. Allways had trouble with those tank undercarriages. They are made to breakdown.



Never had much trouble with the Thunderbird tracks or undercarriages, but all of em I have been around required alot of maintenance on the pneumatic (air)system. I remember one operator in particular that was good at fouling the skidding line, I'd work my ass off guiding it back on the drum clean, a few times a day, moving lines minus logs don't make much money, he finally did it up pretty good once with a turn on had it wound onto the shaft asembly over the drum and over the guard plate bent it, we worked for hours on it, could only slack the skyline so far and the skiddin line would come tight. So we made an eye in our unused haulback hooked a riggin chain to the skiddin line pulled some slack, attached the haywire 7/16 with another riggin chain to the skid line off the drum pulled some slack, set it all down, and basically cut our way clean, had to dissassemble the guards and plates to unravel the skidline, The next day we got a new skidline and Yarder engineer.


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