# Tree root zone vs excavator luke 23 : 34



## derwoodii (Sep 5, 2009)

Luke 23 : 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

I say, what the hell are you doing!! They say, the plans show a 900mm x 900mm fence footing so it goes where it says...

Sigh,,, more trees lost to degree holding architects / muffin heads.


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## outofmytree (Sep 6, 2009)

Can't tell from the pics derwood. Is that a Casuarina? Oh, and what is in the fell zone? Because with 180 degree root loss we know it will fail it is just a matter of when......


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## derwoodii (Sep 6, 2009)

Nah its just a peppermint, Euc nicholii. Actually not that good position as beside HV lines so it cactus up top and now from below. The point shown is the blinked minds that just don't see any connection with trees & root zones.
This is grade 6 biology stuff and these nuffies are degree holding planners and design engineers. Sigh....


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## S Mc (Sep 6, 2009)

I feel your frustration!! It really doesn't matter what kind of tree it is if they don't understand the ramifications. The next time might be a high value species in a high profile setting.

The point is, why on earth aren't these highly trained and educated "professionals" required to know basic tree and plant biology when they cannot avoid it in their design plans????

I ended up losing it in a "discussion" with someone the other day. I heard the phrase "it's just a tree" one too many times. :censored:

Sylvia


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## glennschumann (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm one of those boneheaded, sensless degreed building designers, and as such, I have to stand up and accept the accolades and blame for those in our industry.

I'm sorry.

Yes, there are still folks in this industry who see trees as line item in the site clearning budget, but there are many others who have much more respect for them. I'm proud to say that one of our hospital projects was designed for a site, and was driven by the location of two trees. One a large pine, and the other a very large oak. The attachement shows the hospital and the pine tree, but only references the oak in the last page. I wish I had a photo for you to see. That is not to say that other trees were not lost, but our designers (architects, interior designers, landscape and civil engineers) were all sensitive to the trees through out the project... and a big deal was made to keep them through construction too. 

I've been a tree hugger since I was four, and when out on walks with my parents, I would insist on draging home any branch I found that had leaves on it so my parents could plant it so the tree wouldn't die. I get frustrated when I see things like the above photos too.

There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way. This is promising, but school encouraged composting toilets, and solar cells are not going to make it into most commercial projects. Change will be an evolution, not a revolution.

Architects, engineers, and contractors are not always to blame for these poor decisions, however. Owners, zoning, budgets, architectural review boards, schedule, and "That is the way we have always done it" can be the enemy of intellegent decisions. Education needs to happen at all levels of a project, not just to the design figure head. Your patience in educating the uneducated may not fix the first dumb design you encounter, but eventually, it will help, especially if you can offer a viable alterative.

And along the notion of education, no, cutting off the roots so close to the tree was not often discussed in school.. especially with respect to the physics of a tree falling over... just getting the contractor to not drive over the roots was the emphasis. It seems so obvious, but without education on these things, other topics of concern dominate, and the tree looses.

I welcome more education.


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## clearance (Sep 6, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Luke 23 : 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
> 
> I say, what the hell are you doing!! They say, the plans show a 900mm x 900mm fence footing so it goes where it says...
> 
> Sigh,,, more trees lost to degree holding architects / muffin heads.



Looks like a ditch for a footing that a substantial wall will be built upon. This tree has to go, unlike other situations where trees are removed or damaged that could have been preserved.


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## treeseer (Sep 7, 2009)

clearance said:


> Looks like a ditch for a footing that a substantial wall will be built upon. This tree has to go,


And you say this based on....a picture? The trees may make it fine, IF some care is taken. Much recent research on root cutting and stability in the arb journal. Would have been far better to bridge over, yes.

"There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way."

Unfortunately, landscape architects are not well clued into the needs of existing trees. Nothing devoted to this in the entire MLA program here.

:monkey:


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## S Mc (Sep 7, 2009)

Glenn, I am immensely encouraged by your words. We have to realize, of course, that there are always the Good, the Bad and the Ugly in any profession. Many who care and strive to achieve, many others who go with the path of least resistance often accompanied by the most return.

I am currently enrolled in a Soil Science course whose text is James Urban's Up By Roots. Mr. Urban, as I understand it, is a Landscape Architect. Even though I have just started this book, I have found myself standing up with a "Huzzah!" on several occasions as he proposes large trees rather than small in urban landscapes, planting the right tree in the right place but also making the place right for the tree, feeling that if a tree does not survive into maturity the design has "failed"....I could go on.

He also says "Know what you do not know". Many times this is the problem. Someone doesn't realize they do not have the facts or make assumptions based on misinformation. I am constantly amazed at the viewpoint of so many that view trees as disposable assets if not downright liabilities. 

As you said, education. I, too, welcome more education.

Sylvia


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## clearance (Sep 7, 2009)

treeseer said:


> And you say this based on....a picture? The trees may make it fine, IF some care is taken. Much recent research on root cutting and stability in the arb journal. Would have been far better to bridge over, yes.
> 
> "There is a huge movement in the architecture schools for "Green design" and the next generation of architects won't know how to design any other way."
> 
> ...



Based on a picture, with over twenty years of construction and tree work experience also, yes.


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## treeseer (Sep 7, 2009)

Read the research; trees with 40% cut can make it.



clearance said:


> Based on a picture, with over twenty years of construction and tree work experience also, yes.


Personal and anecdotal experience is often worth following, but as The Legends of Arboriculture admit, practitioners can take pride in doing things the same way for twenty years, not knowing they were wrong. Information anywhere can become inbred, as ideas are repeated back and forth like an echo chamber within an isolated group of people. Only by crosschecking your facts between a range of sources, experience and references can you confirm their reliability.


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## clearance (Sep 7, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Read the research; trees with 40% cut can make it.
> 
> Personal and anecdotal experience is often worth following, but as The Legends of Arboriculture admit, practitioners can take pride in doing things the same way for twenty years, not knowing they were wrong. Information anywhere can become inbred, as ideas are repeated back and forth like an echo chamber within an isolated group of people. Only by crosschecking your facts between a range of sources, experience and references can you confirm their reliability.



Fair enough. What is the ditch for? I say a heavy brick or stone wall, which needs a reinforced concrete foundation well below the frost line. What do you think, about the purpose of the excavation?


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## treeseer (Sep 8, 2009)

clearance said:


> Fair enough. What is the ditch for? I say a heavy brick or stone wall, which needs a reinforced concrete foundation well below the frost line. What do you think, about the purpose of the excavation?


Someone wants to build a big heavy wall, like you and the op said. Should be able to make that coexist with the tree. It would have taken thought and expense to bridge, but the trees are so close damage would have been severe anyway.

Not familiar with species--how tolerant are they of root loss?


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## outofmytree (Sep 8, 2009)

Eucs in general respond quite well to root pruning Guy. By dropping large branches on whatever is put there...  

We don't get too many nicholii in WA but the few I have worked with were not what I would term reliable trees. The foliage is dense, the timber is heavy for a Euc and when cut they snap faster than most. 

I am curious as to what sort of fence is being installed with a footing in Melbourne. Derwoodii?? Any clues there? A wall requires a footing in Australia but fences are most commonly posts set in concrete 2.4m apart. 

Maybe its a trench for a hardiplex fence?


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## HorseShoeInFork (Sep 8, 2009)

Yup, those trees are toast!!!!!!


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## clearance (Sep 8, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Someone wants to build a big heavy wall, like you and the op said. Should be able to make that coexist with the tree. It would have taken thought and expense to bridge, but the trees are so close damage would have been severe anyway.
> 
> Not familiar with species--how tolerant are they of root loss?



Perhaps a bridge, that is a reinforced beam higher than the rest of the footings would not be acceptable, for a few reasons. To make a bridge would not be that difficult, simple elevation changes in footings like that are not complex. I done lots of concrete formwork, usually you have plan to work from.

And the op never said they were going to biuld a big heavy wall, I deduced that from the picture.


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## gink595 (Sep 8, 2009)

It looks like a utility ditch to me, water, sewer or gas line??? Sometimes trees aren't in the plan. I hate it when they do that kind of work down city streets and take out all the big old trees, makes you sick. Glad I'm not he property owners sometimes


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## derwoodii (Sep 9, 2009)

Many thanks your replies special to Glen. As summed up by Smc, I was very humbled. The fence is over the top brick work and steel. Why, dunno just is. The footing is high end of design needs. Why dunno?? Its loam sand here no reactive clays & we don't get perma frost in sunny ozzyland.
Outofmy the E nicholii (Willow Peppermint) over this side seem opposite to yours. Soft easy predictable fast growing short lived garden planting of the 1970-80ies. Ive soxed heaps wrong planted or end of life . They are kinda of a money tree for us here. Happy to further explore this.


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## outofmytree (Sep 9, 2009)

Ahhh, now it becomes clear.

They installed the steel pickets to catch the trees that will fall over after they cut the roots to install the footing that supports the wall that includes the pickets.... I need another drink.


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## outofmytree (Sep 9, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> E nicholii (Willow Peppermint) over this side seem opposite to yours. Soft easy predictable fast growing short lived garden planting of the 1970-80ies. Ive soxed heaps wrong planted or end of life . They are kinda of a money tree for us here. Happy to further explore this.



Interesting. Fast growing to what height for you guys?

We get maybe 20 metres but it takes 30 years or so to get there. Oldest stable tree I have personally worked on was 40 yo, lasered at 18 metres, dbh 1 metre. It reminded me of Agonis flexuosa (Weeping peppermint) in bark texture, leaf shape and of course the "minty" smell when crushed. This was the first I climbed so I was quite surprised at how the wood was both heavy and snapped off quickly before the top cut married up with the undercut. 

What sort of annual rainfall do you get where you live?


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## derwoodii (Sep 10, 2009)

*E nicholii (Willow Peppermint)*

Now your and my descriptions are starting to line up. I reckon we got the right species only difference was our perception of its handling. I was thrown by your view of it timber heavy not reliable foliage dense. I started thinking about Sugar gums. But once you added 20 metres 30 years Agonis flexuosa bark texture leaf shape and of course the "minty" smell I got on the same page.
Im in Mornington peninsula area we used to get 600 - 800mm now lucky if we see 400-500 things are getting very drought bad here 27% in city dams.

Been busy? News says get your saws sharp and fueled 
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/tree-crushes-house-as-storm-brews-20090909-fhhn.html

A tree has crushed a house south-east of Perth as a storm bears down on Perth - with the worst of the front expected to hit the city this evening. SES volunteers from Armadale have arrived at the Mann Place home to help clear the damage.


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## outofmytree (Sep 10, 2009)

Curse those SES volunteers!

I was out in that stuff today. Forecast was for wind gusts to 120kph so we got into it fast. 7 Cocos palms and a modest Lawson cypress on the ground in 58 minutes. Between downpours it took another 4 hours to clean em up.

I dunno why but we get very little post storm damage to clean up... ah well. More palms tomorrow. Don't like em as trees but they pay the bills!


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## derwoodii (Nov 2, 2009)

Some more pics that capture communication failure. 
282 & 283 are behind a tree protection site fence specifically signed & labeled on plans as, no go zone. "Will this be a problem for the trees" asked the site Foreman??
309 was a great effort to protect some bitumen whilst killing a tree. The directional boring blokes were truly disappointed when I suggested that they kinda missed any objective of tree root protection.


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## Ekka (Nov 2, 2009)

From August 2009 AS4970 has been out in Australia.

I suggest all Australians get a copy and LGA's conform to it unless deviation with evidence and supportive analysis from a suitably qualified and experienced arborist supports it.

There is a chart for SRZ's as well as CRZ's, in both cases shown here the SRZ's have been breached.

In the first case the tree appears to be council owned, i have worked on sites where this has happened and the council has been of the opinion that if the tree survives all good, if it dies and they remove so what, would have got removed anyway. Council then place the tree on the regular inspection schedule and check on it, perhaps prune it to mitigate hazard. I see in the first case what appears to be collar cuts for removing lower branches, likely to interfere with the fence. Seemed it was a considered event.

Sometimes the tree simply doesn't warrant the additional expenses of design and building, it's an economical stance that's taken, the wall presides, the tree stays or goes. 

What may be overlooked is the long term uprooting. When in 10 years+ time the tree blows over and there's been a 100% staff turnover including the councillors so records and knowledge is lost.... but the evidence will remain.


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## treeseer (Nov 2, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Some more pics that capture communication failure.
> 282 & 283 are behind a tree protection site fence specifically signed & labeled on plans as, no go zone. "Will this be a problem for the trees" asked the site Foreman??


In one case a contractor took down a fence to trench, tree died, contractor was out $20,000+.


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## outofmytree (Nov 2, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Some more pics that capture communication failure.
> 282 & 283 are behind a tree protection site fence specifically signed & labeled on plans as, no go zone. "Will this be a problem for the trees" asked the site Foreman??
> 309 was a great effort to protect some bitumen whilst killing a tree. The directional boring blokes were truly disappointed when I suggested that they kinda missed any objective of tree root protection.



Sigh. It doesn't look good for those Eucs does it.

I was going to start a thread for these pics but I will piggy back yours instead Derwoodii.












I called the building company to ask if they had a copy of AS4970 or if indeed they even knew what it was and got a "don't call us we'll call you" push off. 

This Corymbia citriodora is over 25m high and easily 35m in canopy width. There was paint, plaster, mortar and (at a guess) lime poured at the base of this tree. Short of drilling holes in the trunk and pouring in Round up I am not sure how much worse these people could have made the situation. 

It is true that they came close to preserving the RPZ (9x1.5m=13.5m) but that is small consideration when you see all that garbage piled around it leeching directly into the soil. 

I don't know who is responsible for this mess......







Oops. How did that photo get in there....

This may seem like small potatoes but we are losing major trees to development hand over fist in WA. This suburb (Peppermint Grove) is amongst the most expensive real estate here and it looks as though the owner of the building wanted this tree preserved. This block, (just the land) would be worth 1.5 to 2.5 million. The tree has many good cuts showing evidence of professional care for years even decades but all that may be undone because builders still see trees as a place to park the truck under while the unload bricks.


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## treeseer (Nov 2, 2009)

if they are building it on spec the buyer better beware...

If they are building it on order then maybe the buyer can be found and oops get a mailing of info on tree care...

:monkey:


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## derwoodii (Nov 2, 2009)

In my last post behind a tree pictured is bill board exulting the development looks featuring the trees that they had just mutilated as a sale piece. 
That grand looking but mistreated Cor cit from Outofmy I would suggest will feature in plans and sales brochure eh..
AS4970 is a great doc, bit big n wordy so sadly seldom is seen in site sheds as it has no bikini girls on the cover.. Hey, that's an idea Tree Roots AS4970 pictures of girls then segue to show tradie build blokes the facts of tree roots zone, could only try could do nay harm.


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## outofmytree (Nov 3, 2009)

Actually thats not a bad idea Guy. I could drop a letter in to the mail box in a few months time with photo's attached. At very least the new owners will be forewarned if not forearmed.

Derwoodii I share you cynicism of AS4970. Not of the document itself, but rather the likelyhood of anyone other than guys like us reading and following it. Maybe on large construction sites but on individual homes ... pffft. 

Reminds me of a pruning job I did on an E.globulus about 6 months ago. I am in the canopy removing deadwood and a couple of poorly formed branches and next door are 3 or 4 carpenters with nail guns framing a house. No ear,eye,head or foot PPE. No nailgun signage, no clear fire zone behind the work area, no fall arrest harnesses and no railings around the roof. That, I am afraid, is the all too common standard on small building sites in WA at least.


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## Ekka (Nov 5, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> It is true that they came close to preserving the RPZ (9x1.5m=13.5m) but that is small consideration when you see all that garbage piled around it leeching directly into the soil.



If you actually bought a copy rather than be a scab using the draft you'd know the standard mandates 12 X DBH not 9.



outofmytree said:


> This may seem like small potatoes but we are losing major trees to development hand over fist in WA. This suburb (Peppermint Grove) is amongst the most expensive real estate here and it looks as though the owner of the building wanted this tree preserved. This block, (just the land) would be worth 1.5 to 2.5 million. The tree has many good cuts showing evidence of professional care for years even decades but all that may be undone because builders still see trees as a place to park the truck under while the unload bricks.



Highly assumptive, the owner might or might not want the tree.

The tree may be protected or it may not be.

Fact is you don't know but you have tarred these people as if you do.

In many instances builders have to build a home but dont pay for or do the block clearing. Sometimes when a tree can be cleared the owner doesn't do it and if it's not in the builders way they wont clear it either.

I have been involved in disputes where a driveway to the street had a gum tree sitting smack bang in the middle, the builder cant put the driveway in and the owner refuses to pay the $1500 removal cost for the tree. The builder states again that they dont own the land and it has to be cleared at the clients cost for the driveway to go in, the scabby client in debt to his ears refuses to pay and says he bought the "package" and the builder should pay for the removal of the tree.

You have failed to establish context but draw conclusion easily.

There's 4 potential scenarios ....


1/ If the tree were protected and the council failed to provide the TMP in the DA approval then the builder would get off easily.

2/ The tree is protected and TMP's were provided and the builder ignored ... a fine coming. 

3/ If the tree is not protected but the client does want to retain then it's a civil case for damages between the client and the builder, however without clear TMP's in place prior it would again be hard for the client.

4/ Tree will be removed later when client arranges, "just get the house built for now".


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## outofmytree (Nov 5, 2009)

> If you actually bought a copy rather than be a scab using the draft you'd know the standard mandates 12 X DBH not 9.



That will teach me to proofread!



> Highly assumptive.



Correct, It is highly assumptive of you to draw conclusions from 3 photographs. But it's what I like about you Ekka. Always willing to open your mouth and put both feet in at the same time.




> The tree may be protected or it may not be.
> 
> Fact is you don't know but you have tarred these people as if you do.



So either it is protected and they are breaching the standard, or it isnt protected and they are creating a hazard. Either way the photographs show poor conduct on what should a show piece site. 

So do YOU think what was done here is right?? 

Or is it just that posting photo's of bad work is immoral? Better not use this link then.http://www.overclockers.com.au/wiki/Your_right_to_take_photographs

Oh wait. You already did.


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## outofmytree (Nov 5, 2009)

> I have been involved in disputes where a driveway to the street had a gum tree sitting smack bang in the middle, the builder cant put the driveway in and the owner refuses to pay the $1500 removal cost for the tree. The builder states again that they dont own the land and it has to be cleared at the clients cost for the driveway to go in, the scabby client in debt to his ears refuses to pay and says he bought the "package" and the builder should pay for the removal of the tree.



Open your mouth, take out one foot and apply it liberally to your own posterior. The tree is on private land. The driveway crossover is on the left and the brand new garage is on the right. The cost of any tree work is the owners responsibility no matter what option they choose. The fact that the driveway has been contoured around the tree so carefully at great cost suggests preservation is their desire but as the builder didnt want to talk that cannot be confirmed.



> You have failed to establish context but draw conclusion easily.



I agree. You do.


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## Ekka (Nov 6, 2009)

My comments are in red



outofmytree said:


> That will teach me to proofread!
> 
> But you cant even read a post without adding your own versions to it.
> 
> ...





outofmytree said:


> Open your mouth, take out one foot and apply it liberally to your own posterior.
> 
> Have no idea what is going in your head but it appears your brain doesn't control your logic.
> 
> ...


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## derwoodii (Nov 7, 2009)

Its been a frustrating week, please let me share the pain.
Q. Where do you intend to put the driveway for this new town house car park. 
A. Here, points to tree.
Q. What about the tree. 
A. What tree, its not on the plans.

Sigh.....


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## outofmytree (Nov 7, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Its been a frustrating week, please let me share the pain.
> Q. Where do you intend to put the driveway for this new town house car park.
> A. Here, points to tree.
> Q. What about the tree.
> ...



Now there is problem. The tree is outside the fence so it would appear that it is owned by the local council. Over here the only way that removal would be permitted in most suburbs is to plant 2 trees in the verge to replace the one removed. Of course the obvious question would be why not reverse the building plan and have the crossover on the opposite side......


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## Ekka (Nov 7, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Its been a frustrating week, please let me share the pain.
> Q. Where do you intend to put the driveway for this new town house car park.
> A. Here, points to tree.
> Q. What about the tree.
> ...



Often I have to write the spec for driveways proximities to council trees.

Often it is overlooked on the drawings, however any decent developer should be employing a consulting arborist prior to design, to assess not only trees on the property but trees within 10m of boundaries and footpath trees. This is often mandated in the preliminary DA



outofmytree said:


> Now there is problem. The tree is outside the fence so it would appear that it is owned by the local council. Over here the only way that removal would be permitted in most suburbs is to plant 2 trees in the verge to replace the one removed. Of course the obvious question would be why not reverse the building plan and have the crossover on the opposite side......



Linear thinking again eh.

Not a new situation and a driveway can co-exist with this tree. Mr Developer if you need help with this one I'll help, no big deal here mate just some lawn guy who isn't qualified has no idea. :monkey:


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## derwoodii (Nov 8, 2009)

Gents, there are design process, guideline's, management systems & solutions here to prevent & heal this kinda cock up. What this thread is about is why weekly us arborist need to do this! The boffins who design failures from behind desks under framed qualifications n pay cheques 4 times ours seem to ignore all above & get you & me to "go figure it out at the wrong end of the dog". 
All accept unforeseen planning issues but 40 foot high trees can not be over looked on small sites to multi million $ jobs.
Monday I sort this one, the drive may be diverted but the cost will be high as below offset line (hard to see) in pic is a storm drain gattic cover and the stepped grade makes re-profile tricky so drop $2000 on top of a $2000 driveway here.
Will the architects/designers then offer client a refund???


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## outofmytree (Nov 8, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Linear thinking again eh.
> 
> Not a new situation and a driveway can co-exist with this tree. Mr Developer if you need help with this one I'll help, no big deal here mate just some lawn guy who isn't qualified has no idea. :monkey:



Hey there's a good idea. Imagine making a curving driveway around a tree. Kinda like this one!






I guess I should have drawn lines on the photograph to make it more obvious from the start. I forgot to allow for dysl-EKKA-sia.


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## outofmytree (Nov 8, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Often I have to write the spec for driveways proximities to council trees.
> 
> Linear thinking again eh.
> 
> Not a new situation and a driveway can co-exist with this tree. Mr Developer if you need help with this one I'll help, no big deal here mate just some lawn guy who isn't qualified has no idea. :monkey:



Ewww. Is that yellow line where you recommend the driveway goes? You mean to tell a developer that he/she can scrape to 200mm below grade, add 100mm of builders sand, compact to spec then add paving or bitumen? All within 4xDBH as per your drawing? How does this line up with preserving the "feeder" roots present in the top 300mm of soil? If this an example of your sterling work you need to go back to working as a fitter. Someone hand this man a spanner.


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## outofmytree (Nov 8, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Gents, there are design process, guideline's, management systems & solutions here to prevent & heal this kinda cock up. What this thread is about is why weekly us arborist need to do this! The boffins who design failures from behind desks under framed qualifications n pay cheques 4 times ours seem to ignore all above & get you & me to "go figure it out at the wrong end of the dog".
> All accept unforeseen planning issues but 40 foot high trees can not be over looked on small sites to multi million $ jobs.
> Monday I sort this one, the drive may be diverted but the cost will be high as below offset line (hard to see) in pic is a storm drain gattic cover and the stepped grade makes re-profile tricky so drop $2000 on top of a $2000 driveway here.
> Will the architects/designers then offer client a refund???



I understand exactly what you mean DW. Although working from a couple of photographs is limiting it is simple enough to figure out that if the plans had been reversed, so the garage was on the right instead of left, then there would be no conflict with this tree. Of course there may well be another tree on the right hand side...

At least you got a job out of it. Hope it all works out. Keep us in the loop.


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## derwoodii (Nov 8, 2009)

Yup correct OMT just outside of shot is a nice large Olive tree. The diversion "if it gets up" will pass between them Ok-ishly root zone wise. But I know the home owner will push to have the Ash removed as reversing a car out with a turn n twist will never be the preferred option. To add more salt around the corner same development is a repeat design tree vs crossover failure. All this will chew hours out of my week (non billable for me). Whilst the architect rises late in his tree lined street drops of his kids at leafy private school then of to the office rain forest timber desk, to kill more trees.


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## Ekka (Nov 8, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Ewww. Is that yellow line where you recommend the driveway goes? You mean to tell a developer that he/she can scrape to 200mm below grade, add 100mm of builders sand, compact to spec then add paving or bitumen? All within 4xDBH as per your drawing? How does this line up with preserving the "feeder" roots present in the top 300mm of soil? If this an example of your sterling work you need to go back to working as a fitter. Someone hand this man a spanner.



Well here goes the fool again. opcorn:

Where did I say scrape and all the other crap your foam forth?

I didn't but your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish like that.

So now a paint shopped sketch is an architects drawing eh, you just like behaving like a thoroughbred idiot I'm sure. 

There's many engineered alternatives to scraping, there's many options but your linear defecating brain cant persue those paths because it's too hell bent on being belligerent rather than viewing a solution and input.

You still assume that the tree in your picture is a retention. Some estates here when the builders are gone has just the house sitting on it, no driveway, sometimes no fences either, no landscaping etc. They just build the house the rest is the owners problem later. You do not know for sure what the story is yet not only slag on the builder but others who offer solutions .... truly a world class fool!

As far as being a fitter/turner previously it was a great practical experience, and another trade of which I haven't added all those units of competency up ... must be worth another 20 odd. The best part about being a fitter/turner was not only could I walk up to just about any piece of equipment and machinery and strip it + put it back together again but I could make a new part. I was well versed in the machine shop, fabricate, machine parts up etc. Very handy trade to have with this job especially working with builders as "we click" about doing things, and the objective is the task not carrying on like you do with tripe.

derwoodii, ultimately it's the Local Govts fault, they are the regulators and if their DA's are that hopeless that they dont ask or miss stuff out then they need to address that. They have plenty of tools at their disposal these days to know about trees, but if they forget to ask and check then that hole needs to be plugged. 

Here it's common to survey all vegetation greater than 200mm DBH including neighbouring vegetation within 10m of boundaries. There you go, that one sentence covered it all. Now if the developer/builder etc omits that and council dont pick it up who's fault is it? Councils.


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## outofmytree (Nov 8, 2009)

Ekka said:


> Where did I say scrape and all the other crap your foam forth?
> 
> I didn't but your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish like that.
> 
> ...



Lol. So instead of scraping to prepare for a driveway you suggest they add fill? So you reckon it is better to bury and compact the roots than scrape them out? Either option is trouble for a tree at 4xdbh.

So lets say we follow your "plan" and still maintain 12xdbh. The tree is about 700mm dbh so the RPZ is 8.4 m. Add that to the 2.4m already taken to the left of the trunk and the trunk itself which makes 11.5m. How wide is this block? How close is the olive tree? How much extra will an "s" bend driveway cost? 

So lets weigh up the options shall we?

Option 1. Change the garage position on the plans prior to building. Worst case scenario is the HO gets slugged $100 for a plan change.

Option 2. Use the Ekka plan and wind your driveway around pre-existing council trees at a likely cost of thousands of dollars. 

Option 3. Buy a helicopter. 

About the only thing you said that was correct was.....


> Ekka.
> Well here goes the fool again.



So long as you were talking about yourself.


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## Ekka (Nov 8, 2009)

My comments are in red, sadly once again I need to no only inform but defend myself of an ignorants attacks.



outofmytree said:


> Lol. So instead of scraping to prepare for a driveway you suggest they add fill? Where did I suggest they add fill? Once again you add your own BS to fit your belligerent motives. So you reckon it is better to bury and compact the roots than scrape them out? I didn't reckon anything of the kind at all but interesting to see your ignorant brain at work. Either option is trouble for a tree at 4xdbh. Where did 4xDBH com from as I dont recall mentioning it?
> 
> So lets say we follow your "plan" and still maintain 12xdbh. My plan, I didn't recommend any specification but once again you did, so it's YOUR plan not mine. The tree is about 700mm dbh so the RPZ is 8.4 m. Add that to the 2.4m already taken to the left of the trunk and the trunk itself which makes 11.5m. How wide is this block? How close is the olive tree? How much extra will an "s" bend driveway cost?
> 
> ...


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## treeseer (Nov 8, 2009)

OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right, but this time you're behind the curve. Installing driveways above rootzones is a simple process and would not be $2k here. Get the book Trees & Development; does your chapter sell it? here's a brief spec; Ekka may have better.

derwoodii we feel your pain re the wrong end of the dog but like it or not it is on us to make it hunt without getting browned ourselves. 
at any rate the yellow line could be redrawn closer to the tree if need be.

APPENDIX I: GUIDELINES FOR DRIVEWAY INSTALLATION

PART I—PRODUCTS

A.	MATERIALS
1.	The Structural Soil Mix shall be 80% pre-mixed blend of ¾ inch graded STALITE expanded slate lightweight aggregate and 20% approved sandy loam. This pre-mixed material is supplied locally by Triangle Landscape Supplies from three different locations.

PART II—EXECUTION

A.	PREPARATION
1. The broken driveway pieces shall be removed carefully, starting at the Kalkhrust property and ending at the sidewalk. The gravel substrate shall be removed by hand and blown off the roots with air, to avoid further damage.
2.	The roots underneath shall be inspected for damage done when the driveway broke, and any damage treated as in Recommendation 1.
B. PLACING STRUCTURAL SOIL MIX BY PAVING CONTRACTOR
1.	The fill shall be place in a uniform lift that is 8” above the roots closest to the tree trunk and tapering toward the ends. 
2.	Use of vibratory plate compacting machine or vibratory roller is recommended.
3.	Construction equipment, other than compacting equipment, shall not operate on the exposed structural soil mix. 
ABOVE THE SUBSTRATE
1.	Geotextile fabric shall be spread to avoid mixing of the substrate with the concrete. WWF4X4-W6.5X6.5 wire mesh shall be laid on top for added strength and flexibility. 
2.	A 6” concrete pad shall then be poured. The forms on the sides should be secured with stakes or pins that do not damage the roots. The use of smaller panels with expansion joints should be considered. 

These specifications are adapted from examples in the book Reducing Infrastructure Damage by Tree Roots: A Compendium of Strategies. I am providing Mr. Best with a copy of this book and a copy of Trees and Development for his reference. Alterations to these specifications may be made only in consultation with Mr. Best or a pavement contractor that he assigns.


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## Ekka (Nov 9, 2009)

treeseer said:


> OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right



Now I wonder what "spat" you refer to?

The last one I recall was the AQF system in here in Australia that likely you know know very little about, and he was way wrong in that one. 

But thanks for helping out sorting some crud from clay with the rest of his disabilities/ignorance. 

We dont have a soil profile yet either, ever tried compacting sand?

How deep is the root zone and what is the root density? No facts just OOMT pulling his pud.


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## outofmytree (Nov 9, 2009)

treeseer said:


> OMT last time you two spatted you were in the right, but this time you're behind the curve. Installing driveways above rootzones is a simple process and would not be $2k here. Get the book Trees & Development; does your chapter sell it? here's a brief spec; Ekka may have better.
> 
> derwoodii we feel your pain re the wrong end of the dog but like it or not it is on us to make it hunt without getting browned ourselves.
> at any rate the yellow line could be redrawn closer to the tree if need be.
> ...



Great information Guy. Thanks for book suggestion. I will put it on my Christmas wish list where the wife and kids can see it.... You never know your luck!

I have some experience with house construction in Australia and the contracts that go with it. Any alteration to plans post signing the documents is at the HO's expense. The type of preparation you suggest above is quite likely to exceed two thousand in extra costs to the HO over here. Which is not to say that it cannot or should not be done, but rather that, as is often the case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Or in this case as much as a thousand pounds. Sterling that is.


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## Ekka (Nov 9, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The type of preparation you suggest above is quite likely to exceed two thousand in extra costs to the HO over here. Which is not to say that it cannot or should not be done, but rather that, as is often the case, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Or in this case as much as a thousand pounds. Sterling that is.



And it's also preparation that was outside of your narrow avenue of thought, totally optioned out of existing.

What others are you optioning out due to your ignorance? :monkey:


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## outofmytree (Nov 9, 2009)

Ekka said:


> sadly once again I need to no only inform but defend myself of an ignorants attacks.



You mean these sort of ignorant attacks?



> the rest of his disabilities/ignorance





> interesting to see your ignorant brain at work





> Well here goes the fool again





> your tainted little brain comes up with all sorts of rubbish





> your linear defecating brain





> truly a world class fool





> you are so pathetic



If you talk trash princess it always comes back to you. If you can't handle the heat stay out of the kitchen. Here's an idea, take this blokes advice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y


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## treeseer (Nov 9, 2009)

Maybe you guys could pm all this so you can pull each others' privates in private.

:arg:


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## EdenT (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi TS, cool solution. Didn't know such a thing was available. A couple of things I wanted to ask. 

This solution appears to be aimed at replacing a pre-existing driveway but I can see it is readily adaptable to installing a new driveway. However given that it has a 14" profile and will be laid over an existing tree - presumably with roots in the top few inches of soil (as well) won't this lead to a bit of a speed bump? (or am I misinterpreting the instructions?)

Are there any 'lower profile solutions?

Lets get this thread back on track! To the protagonists 'chill out dudes - while it is entertaining in a ren & stimpy kind of way too many good threads are being ruined'.

P.S. By the way OOMT great vid (Date with a Palm, not chopper, though that was pretty funny)


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## treeseer (Nov 9, 2009)

EdenT said:


> This solution appears to be aimed at replacing a pre-existing driveway but I can see it is readily adaptable to installing a new driveway. However given that it has a 14" profile and will be laid over an existing tree - presumably with roots in the top few inches of soil (as well) won't this lead to a bit of a speed bump? (or am I misinterpreting the instructions?)
> 
> Are there any 'lower profile solutions?


Yes it can be done with <14"; that spec was for a sunken driveway. 
Yes it can be a bump if it is not spread out a bit, which runs up material cost.
But it's still a sustainable and affordable option for a valuable tree. The issue on this site is the sidewalk, which would also have to be ramped to avoid tripping hazard.


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## EdenT (Nov 10, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Yes it can be done with <14"; that spec was for a sunken driveway.
> Yes it can be a bump if it is not spread out a bit, which runs up material cost.
> But it's still a sustainable and affordable option for a valuable tree. The issue on this site is the sidewalk, which would also have to be ramped to avoid tripping hazard.



I don't know TS. If as I suspect this house was built to an 'off-the-shelf' plan there is probably very little money left in the kitty to protect a tree that no-one thought about in the first place. (and don't worry, I consider this vile too.) Given the tree's location and the need for stumpgrinding I would guesstimate that it would cost about $500 for a proffessional tree crew to remove it. I would guesstimate (though I have no real idea) that it would cost about $4000 to install a traditional driveway. (Please feel free to correct me). What do you estimate the cost of the alternative driveway with appropriatte footpath modification, keeping in mind that extra approvals would be required? 

Does anyone else have any low cost solutions to this problem that will save the tree? Of course the really annoying thing is that given most of the publics perception of trees, the HO will probably want the tree gone so they can reverse their 4WD out to do the shopping and pick up the kids from school.


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## derwoodii (Nov 10, 2009)

ET All your assumption are pretty good cost to remove & drive install and likely future nego on tree. Alternative drive could be laid with rubber matt or bitumen I've even seen done in timber but early days here.
Its the lands grade & storm pit & cover unseen in picture that controls the diversion and the HO likely resentment to a twist n turn car park.
It may take a while, I let all know I'm hoping for the best but jaded by to many fails.
Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah


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## treeseer (Nov 10, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah





We take our victories where we can get them.


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## EdenT (Nov 10, 2009)

derwoodii said:


> Yet today came across one that was quickly solved by the developer/designer who saw the trees benefits and happy to divert a small section of footpath. hallelujah



Amen to that! 

Thought I would have a look around and came across this site.

http://www.drivewayexpert.co.uk/cellular-paving-systems-driveway.html

The unusual materials section is quite promising.


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## outofmytree (Nov 10, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Maybe you guys could pm all this so you can pull each others' privates in private.
> 
> :arg:



Fair call Guy. Protecting significant trees is more important than scoring points.

Ekka if I hurt your feelings I am deeply sorry.

25 years ago my boss had a driveway made of pavers that sat in his lawn. They resembled a checkerboard with every second square being a hole which allowed the lawn to grow through. I wonder how this would work between major roots to spread the weight.


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## treeseer (Nov 11, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> 25 years ago my boss had a driveway made of pavers that sat in his lawn. They resembled a checkerboard with every second square being a hole which allowed the lawn to grow through. I wonder how this would work between major roots to spread the weight.


yes these cast pavers are widely used here, mostly in parking lots.


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## Ekka (Nov 14, 2009)

My comments are in red



outofmytree said:


> You mean these sort of ignorant attacks
> 
> They're not ignorant attacks, they're adjectives of your abilities. LOL
> 
> ...





outofmytree said:


> Ekka if I hurt your feelings I am deeply sorry.
> 
> Forget feelings, have a look at how ignorant your comments are, then oh, Treeseer has an option that you knew nothing about yet there you were making like you're the expert, and there's still more options not explored. To not know is bad enough, but arrogant and beating people over the head from a position of ignorance is foolish. :monkey:


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## EdenT (Nov 14, 2009)

Hi Ekka, you mention more options?


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## derwoodii (Nov 14, 2009)

Options, PDF plan file is design for pavement vaulted over tree root zone, something another work mate is working on. Please review add your thoughts. 
No Fines Concrete is great medium just aggregate (choose your own stone size & colour tint) with the concrete binding dust, but no sand. So very open & porous but still strong to certain traffic (need to avoid abrasive twist eg power steer turning wheels) Have installed many sites over tree roots and new trees plantings with good results. Its very nice to pour a bucket of water onto a concrete surface strong enough for road traffic & watch it run straight though.


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## EdenT (Nov 15, 2009)

Wow, that picture is very impressive. I always thought that concrete would increase the pH of the soil around and beneath. Is this an issue?

I had been thinking of some kind of honeycomb structure of inert material laid out on top with ramped edges sort of like the deck of an aircraft carrier with lots of hills drilled in it (possibly re-usable and relocatable) but I can't find much even close to my feverish imagination.


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## derwoodii (Nov 15, 2009)

Yup ET new laid concrete has given me grief. Linked to tree ill health or death. I suspect the new type chemical reactive agents maybe toxic if leaches into soil. Seen cement truck drivers wash down their rig in parks, next week trees dead. 

Your honeycomb bricks idea pls try link this kinda stuff works really well & there are plastic forms of concept as well.

Rather than covering your driveway in gravel, asphalt, cement or with blocks (traditional pavers), a "green" driveway uses special "honeycomb" style pavers, with grass growing in the holes.

http://greenterrafirma.com/grass-pavers.html


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## outofmytree (Nov 15, 2009)

Dropped in to look at the C.citriodora I posted about earlier and took a few photo's. The first were taken about 4 months ago.







As you can see the garage on the right and the crossover on the left with a very nice looking driveway (with marble chips embedded in the surface!) joining the two. It appears that, as Treeseer suggested, the tree is to be retained feature of the house. BTW I got the suburb wrong it is not in Peppermint Grove but rather in Cottesloe which is now officially the most expensive suburb in Australia. The kind of place where one would hope that work would always be done to best practise. Sadly the next photo shows that this is not the case.






These are Agonis flexuosa or Weeping peppermints. They are street trees planted by various councils dating as far back as the 1920's. I cannot be certain who cleared the verge but I can tell you it was quick, brutal and did not involve airspades or hand tools. 

I will continue to follow this development and hope to contact the owners to gain more information as to their plans for the trees and what if any discussions they had with the developers regarding protection of those trees.


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## EdenT (Nov 15, 2009)

Cheers for the link d. I've never been that fond of grass and those panels seem to be purpose built for it. I followed a link from that site and found this...
http://www.boddingtons-ltd.com/PDF/PR52-08-BodcellTreeRootProtection.pdf

Now that is definately the business. Especially with the reusable nature of them, you could put in the heavy while the house is being built and then replace it with the light duty once it is a residence.


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## derwoodii (Nov 17, 2009)

Ok here's some more pictures of more options. 
Vaulted timber over root zones. 
Plastic cellular honey comb driveway and the homes are built on "Screw piles" saving root zone impact.
I offer apologies to the much maligned muffin heads Architects / Designers here are some great ideas.
The Fig next to home was a purpose build to protect the tree, see link for details.
http://www.archicentre.com.au/treehouses/index.htm


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## Ekka (Nov 19, 2009)

In the beginning he knew all about driveways, soils and apparently psychology calling me dyslexic. He claimed tons of debris was compacting a root zone that's sand.  I did say "ever tried compacting sand?" refer the quote below.



Ekka said:


> We dont have a soil profile yet either, ever tried compacting sand?
> 
> How deep is the root zone and what is the root density? No facts just OOMT pulling his pud.



Remember OOMT then being Mr Hotshot with this kinda stuff .....



outofmytree said:


> Hey there's a good idea. Imagine making a curving driveway around a tree. Kinda like this one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But now things have developed and .....



outofmytree said:


> Dropped in to look at the C.citriodora I posted about earlier and took a few photo's. The first were taken about 4 months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



..... all of a sudden as ignorance is being replaced with knowledge and a problem solving attitudes rather than blame and defecate answers are arising.

Yawn, so predictable ... but so typical eh Mr OOMT fool.


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## derwoodii (May 19, 2010)

Ok remember this one, after much debate a result is in.
The states highest planning authority had to deliver final design after Council refused permit due to this & many other issues on the site. 
So even if AS 4970 says don't do this. No argument could be entered as their say is final & no appeal is given.








So in went the drive, its NQR not quite right and the trees will suffer but the only other option was a loss. Many other issues where on the plate.
Eg design was x but final was y etc and resolve needed much nego.
Around the corner another tree vs garage. Well pay a designer to draw plan without looking so this is what you get.




Again not what the owner wanted as now needs to hook a turn to go in n out. It just works, lets see how long the tree lives.
Apparently Cert of Occ is pending as the whole lot is 600mm / 2 foot higher than plan so next doors saying total loss of privacy.
At home in his expensive leafy street the developer is thinking up more ways to remove other peoples trees for his profit.


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