# What a difference.... Csm vs bandsaw mill



## shelby78 (Jul 2, 2012)

So i kill tree's for a living and after finding a cheap mark 3 alaskan csm i was hooked. I ran my 66 stihl with it and times were good for the first 60 boards. I quickly realized i'm too lazy to do my job all day and then fight with a chain saw mill. The alaskan with my 66 did some amazing finishes on the lumber and everyone i showed though i planed them.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago.. I've been watching kijiji for a months of so and a 2009 Norwood lumbermate 2000 came up (there was a few but this was a good deal). 13hp honda, bed extension, trailor pack (not norwood but decent) He wanted $5100 but i got it for $4700. It had about 40 hours on it. 6 hours of driving later and i had it.

I've had it out twice to our property and i am impressed! Cuts that took me 3 minutes with my csm now take 30 seconds. Now the finish it not near as nice but it is decent. Today (the second time) I was making some boards for a buddy. He wants 40 boards 3/4 thick 7 ft long and average of 10 inches wide. Today (after 20 min set-up) i did 159 bft in 1.5 hours by myself. While this is slow in mill terms it is lighting fast compared to my 066 and the alaskan. I used to come home with 5-7 boards for a few hours work. Today i came home with 27 boards.

I know, i know.. pics or it didn't happen...... While here you go you son of a ........


Also here is a rustic table/benches i threw together. No plans, just some deck screws  I have to do some triming still on the table.


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## Dave Boyt (Jul 4, 2012)

You got a great deal on that mill! Looks like you're getting the hang of it. The more you use it, the better you'll like it. With Norwood in Ontario, it will be easy to get support, if you need it. I've found them to be very helpful. If you don't have at least a dozen extra blades, I'd advise you to order some-- I keep 20 blades on hand. Change to a sharp blade before the blade is really dull. You get better cuts, and the blade lasts longer. Hopefully you can find someone up your way to sharpen blades. A good sharpening service is critical for any band mill! And don't feel too bad when you cut into a log stop or clamp. We've all done it (some of us multiple times). Be careful, enjoy, and keep the pictures coming!


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## shelby78 (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm pretty happy with what i paid for the mill. I also found a sharpening service locally and he has 4 of my dull bands. To sharpen he wants $12 per band which seems high as he is making me brand new lennox bands for $18 and change each. It's almost not worth sharpening for the price of new. The extra bonus is this guy sharpens everything so i can get my end mills done also (I have a metal lathe and metal mill for my gun hobby.) If i don't like the job he does sharpening i will buy my own sharpener. I really prefer to do things myself and not rely on others.

Here's a few more pics of me and my dad playing. He wanted to see the mill running so he came out last weekend. You will find i am a stickler for pics so i always have lots.


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## hamish (Jul 5, 2012)

where are you getting your bands for $18??? Moira Precision? If so get an accurate quote, they are most likely quoting .035 bands, and also shipping for 10 was $40, or are you local enough to not pay shipping?

If your looking at Lenox bands try the new c-sharp band, blows the doors off the regular woodmaster c.

Welcome to AS and rep inbound for another Norwood owner!


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## shelby78 (Jul 5, 2012)

Yes, I will be getting my bands from Moria precision. I told him 144 inch 1 1/4 7/8 .042 and he quoted me $18.36 per band. I'm a half hour drive from his shop so no shipping. I will be trying all the lenox bands but for sure now i will try the c-sharp's. Maybe local guys get better prices as he doesn't have to pack and ship? (He is way out in the country). Thanks for the info and if the pricing changes when i go to get them i will be posting here about it.


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## blades (Jul 8, 2012)

cost of sharpening a band is in the labor to swag the tips of the teeth. this is what gives you your kerf clearance. This step is labor intensive even using an automatic machine. If not done correctly the blade will wonder all over or bind up giving you fits. I am a professional sharpener of many years experience. Generally, as you have found, narrow blades are ( 1.25" is still considered a narrow blade)not worth the effort to regrind and set kerf. In some cases you really can not reset the kerf because the cutting edges are hardened to "rockwell 75" ( that is harder than a file) this includes most narrow blades. You can touch up the tips but each time you do, you reduce your kerf (clearance) so maybe once or twice. Different story with the large bandmill blades 3-6" or more wide. there are 3 basic grades of bandsaws, Hard edge-Flex back, Hard edge-hard back in the carbon steel bands, then the bi-metal bands /tool steel edged bands. Your blades at $18 ea are on the bottom rung (hefb), HEHB would run about 10-15% more /blade for a slight improvement in the number of board feet per blade. Bi-metal blades about 3 times price wise but production per blade could go as much as 4 times the carbon steel units. Stay safe and have fun milling. By the way in many years past I used to make bandsaws from raw spring steel stock, that is no longer cost effective given the prices of steel and labor now days. There are several small sharpening units on the market under $3000. Some of these have trouble dealing with the large tooth spacing and all rely on the tooth before the one being ground for location using a pawl to push into place. The devil is in the details as they say.


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## Dave Boyt (Jul 8, 2012)

Blades, you have some great info, but I've got to take exception on a couple of points. Small band saw mills (1" to 4" wide) are set rather than swedged. The setting actually bends the tip of the blade out a bit to give the desired kerf (like a hand saw). The set is typically about .022" one direction, .000 for the next tooth, then .022" the other direction for the third tooth, with the pattern repeated. Setting is a separate operation from grinding. Some of the cheaper grinders just grind the face, while the better "plunge" grinders actually grind the entire profile, including the gullet. I typically get 5 or 6 sharpenings before replacing a blade (unless I hit metal). Some sharpeners (like Cook's) use plunge grinding, and advance the tooth to be cut instead of the one behind it. But they are more than $3k-- closer to $4.5k when you include the setter. I agree that the bi-metal blades last longer, but they don't seem to cut as fast or as smoothly. They do cut through nails and keep on going, though. You just have to figure the cost of the equipment and your time against the cost of the sharpening service.


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## shelby78 (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the info guys. I got my sharpened bands and my new bands from Moira Precision friday night and i am happy with them. He sharpens the full profile and only charged me $10 per band for sharpening. The $18.36 per band he quoted was exactly what it was suppose to be and the exact sizes i said. I do plan to get some bimetal bands as i'm sure they will come in handy for mystery metal tree's. I have thought about getting my own sharpener but for now as i'm just playing around it isn't worth the expense.

All that said, this damn lumber is like it grows on tree's or something. The pile just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Now i just need to start selling it  Some of the stuff is cracked because it has sat in the log for a year or more and i didn't trim the ends.


I know my lumber shouldn't be in the sun and i still have to tar some of it. I do look forward to any more hints or tips. I also have a new 2500 lb 4 wheeler winch i had givin to me that will be going on the mill for remote work when i don't have my tractor. A few more pics and that is a sharpened band.


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## blades (Jul 8, 2012)

Totally agree with you Dave, not had my coffee yet, so I guess my typing was not as fast as my brain was rambling. Narrow blades specifically designed for milling could be a different breed ( like the ones I used to make from scratch) . I do not have much contact with those around here. I generally refer inquires to companies that specialize in that area nowadays, as it isn't worth while for me to spend the time to set everything up or have it eating floor space standing idle 95% of the time. I still have ( in storage) my Volmer CNS grinder ( plunge)as well as a couple other small units (Can't think of the mfg's right now) They are available. ( sorry for the plug)


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## shelby78 (Jul 8, 2012)

Maybe some of you guys know the awnser to this.... I tried to post this morning but it seems everytime i add pics it has to wait for moderator approval. How long does it take for this to go away as i can't find a reference for it. Also is this site low on moderators as it has been 5-6 hours since i tried to post and the same thing happened last time. I can see why many poeple don't post pics if this is the way it works. Thanks.


O.k so now the post is there.. You can see the time delay from this post to that post.


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## Dave Boyt (Jul 8, 2012)

It took me quite a while to figure out how to post photos, but this technique gets them into the post instantly. Set up a photobucket account (photobucket.com), and add the photos to the album. Try to keep them small-- under 100k in size so they load quicker for us poor folks that have slow internet. To use the image, move the pointy finger over it (but don't click). Left click on the button to the right of IMG Code. This copies the image code. Then go back to your post and left-click the place where the photo goes, and paste the image code (right-click, and select paste, or use CNTRL-V). When you preview your post, you'll see the image. Works ever' time!

Nice looking piles of lumber. Looks like you did a good job of stickering it so it will air dry. Selling is always the hard part, but trust me, word will get out! Try Craigslist. You'll like the bimetal blades, but be careful not to saw through your clamps! I don't think I'd tar the ends. Latex paint works fairly well, if cracks haven't started. I use Anchorseal, which is a wax-based sealer. I get it from baileys-online.com, but there are other sources.

Blades, I figured you knew what you were talking about, but must have just been used to working on the blades that the big boys use. Nothing wrong with letting people know what you've got. I think either ForestryForum and/or WoodWeb have classified sections. I've also had wonderful luck selling equipment on sawmillexchange.com. Wish I could justify the equipment for my own sawmill.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 8, 2012)

shelby78 said:


> All that said, this damn lumber is like it grows on tree's or something. The pile just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Now i just need to start selling it  Some of the stuff is cracked because it has sat in the log for a year or more and i didn't trim the ends.



First of all, i'd be useing Anchorseal on the ends of the logs/boards not tar, and you aren't going to let the sun and rain get on those piles are you?? It's just a good way to turn lumber into firewood.

SR


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## hamish (Jul 8, 2012)

Glad to hear everything went good with Moira Precision. If I didn't have my own sharpener I would simply be buying new at that price, expecially if I had to cover shipping cost also.

Get that lumber out of the sun!


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## mikeb1079 (Jul 8, 2012)

> First of all, i'd be useing Anchorseal on the ends of the logs/boards not tar, and you aren't going to let the sun and rain get on those piles are you?? It's just a good way to turn lumber into firewood.



yes yes yes. some species can't even sit in the sun like that for a day. (oak comes to mind) don't let all your hard work go to waste!


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## shelby78 (Jul 10, 2012)

Sawyer Rob said:


> First of all, i'd be useing Anchorseal on the ends of the logs/boards not tar, and you aren't going to let the sun and rain get on those piles are you?? It's just a good way to turn lumber into firewood.
> 
> SR



I've read on a few sites that guys were useing roofing tar to seal the ends with good results. Isn't the main purpose to keep the moisture in to dry more evenly, or does the anchor seal let some out or something different? I have no problems ordering the proper stuff if it does a better job. 

So far my pine like the sun and has a nice tan ... I do plan to get it out of the sun, as this was temporary till i decide where i want to pile it for good. That and the fact i have to use a bunch for my own projet at home (Floor for the 10x12 tin shed i built) which will use alot of it. 

Thanks for all the help and keep and sugestions coming.


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## Dave Boyt (Jul 12, 2012)

I could see tar working. Problem is, if you trim off the ends of the boards to get rid of the tar, you could wind up wasting nearly as much lumber as you would if you trimmed off the cracks, plus you've got your time in applying the tar. Anchor seal evaporates off the boards with the high temps associated with kiln drying (by then, the cracking danger is past), and presents no machining or gluing problems. If you go with the tar, please post your observations so that we can learn from you.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 12, 2012)

Tar will work, but like Dave said, you end up with a LOT's of waste. Worse yet, in the end, it gets every place! I've seen guys use it before, but once they saw how it get's on their tools and every place else, they quit.

It's much easier/better to use Anchorseal on the ends of the LOG's and then you can saw right through it. The logs stay better and the board ends will then be covered and you end up useing a lot less of it.

Having that lumber out in the hot sun WILL cause all kinds of problems with it on down the road!

SR


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## GeeVee (Sep 6, 2012)

I see the resemblance between you and your Dad, do him a favor and ask him to wear some sensible shoes, Eh?

You have a nice asphalt pad there, and a pile of lumber, build a solar kiln.


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## Dave Boyt (Sep 7, 2012)

GeeVee is right about the shoes (better with boots). 

Also,it looks like you're trying to use a firewood lifter for a cant hook. Do yourselves a favor and get a pair of good cant hooks (maybe a 4' and a 5'). If you want one to match your mill, Norwood has some good ones, and LogRite also markets them. They are lighter and grip much better. Baileys online has cant hooks in their catalog.


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## hamish (Sep 7, 2012)

Dave Boyt said:


> GeeVee is right about the shoes (better with boots).
> 
> Also,it looks like you're trying to use a firewood lifter for a cant hook. Do yourselves a favor and get a pair of good cant hooks (maybe a 4' and a 5'). If you want one to match your mill, Norwood has some good ones, and LogRite also markets them. They are lighter and grip much better. Baileys online has cant hooks in their catalog.



The Norwood ones are made my Logrite, and you can even get yourself a fine 4' Logrite peavey at your local Stihl dealer here in Canada, was about $115 a few months ago when I replaced an old relic I was using (you can change it from a peavey to cant hook for a nice call to Logrite).

Has been a bad drought in this area which we are slowly getting out of, so the mills even many commercial ones have been shut down due to the fire risk.........the engines are now getting fired up after being idle for two months, I was getting sick of planing an jointing in the garage in town...but had to play with wood. Been a great summer for drying though.


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## shelby78 (Sep 7, 2012)

GeeVee said:


> I see the resemblance between you and your Dad, do him a favor and ask him to wear some sensible shoes, Eh?
> 
> You have a nice asphalt pad there, and a pile of lumber, build a solar kiln.



You don't like his safety sandals? To really put it in perspective, he wanted me to call him when i took the mill out for the first time. He and my mom were already out so they stopped by. Normally he would have gear but my mom just wanted some pics of us. I appreciate the concerns though.

That nice pad is my drivway and it is where the mill sits. My pine has sat in the sun all summer and has no ill effect. I know other wood won't tolerate this but the pine does. The oak is in my shed stickered.



Dave Boyt said:


> GeeVee is right about the shoes (better with boots).
> 
> Also,it looks like you're trying to use a firewood lifter for a cant hook. Do yourselves a favor and get a pair of good cant hooks (maybe a 4' and a 5'). If you want one to match your mill, Norwood has some good ones, and LogRite also markets them. They are lighter and grip much better. Baileys online has cant hooks in their catalog.



You hit the nail on the head with the lumber holder. I got it with the mill so it's what i used for the first. Actually i only just ran into trouble with it doing the big oak. I wasen't smart enuff to order one from norwood when i just made a order last week for some spare parts....



hamish said:


> The Norwood ones are made my Logrite, and you can even get yourself a fine 4' Logrite peavey at your local Stihl dealer here in Canada, was about $115 a few months ago when I replaced an old relic I was using (you can change it from a peavey to cant hook for a nice call to Logrite).
> 
> Has been a bad drought in this area which we are slowly getting out of, so the mills even many commercial ones have been shut down due to the fire risk.........the engines are now getting fired up after being idle for two months, I was getting sick of planing an jointing in the garage in town...but had to play with wood. Been a great summer for drying though.



All we run at work is stihl so i will talk to our dealer to see if he can get me a hook. That must be pretty dry to shut down mills from running?


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## Dave Boyt (Sep 10, 2012)

shelby78 said:


> That must be pretty dry to shut down mills from running?



Tinderbox here in southwest Missouri. 6 weeks with 0" rainfall. Ponds are dry. Some idiot has been amusing himself by setting fires in the area. We got a little rain from hurricane Isaac, but would love to see more!


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## hamish (Sep 10, 2012)

The biggest problem is lack of fire protection, everybody is on wells, many have dried up trying to keep herds alive, a spark at the mill and no means to fight it, just not a sound business practice. But they are fired up now!


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## Lookin4lunkers (Sep 12, 2012)

Where abouts in Ontario are you Hammish? Ive been to every stihl dealer within 200k of me and not found a single Logrite tool. I'm near the NY boarder but hate going unless I have to.

Awesome set up Shelby...those Norwoods are real nice


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## Dave Boyt (Sep 12, 2012)

Lookin4lunkers said:


> Where abouts in Ontario are you Hammish? Ive been to every stihl dealer within 200k of me and not found a single Logrite tool. I'm near the NY boarder but hate going unless I have to.



You could pick one up at the Norwood office in Kilworthy, ON. Apparently, they get their cant hooks from LogRite and paint them orange to match their mills. You'll never need another one!


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## hamish (Sep 12, 2012)

Lookin4lunkers said:


> Where abouts in Ontario are you Hammish? Ive been to every stihl dealer within 200k of me and not found a single Logrite tool. I'm near the NY boarder but hate going unless I have to.
> 
> Awesome set up Shelby...those Norwoods are real nice



Ottawa Valley, get your Stihl dealer to order 7010 881 2603 Peavey Cant Hook, list in Canada is $114.50.


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## Lookin4lunkers (Sep 13, 2012)

well howdy nieghbor (i'm in Chesterville)...Is that number for a Peavy or a cant hook and what length? What dealer do you use? Maybe shoot me a PM so we don't jack Shelby's thread any more:msp_smile:


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## Sawyer Rob (Sep 17, 2012)

Dave Boyt said:


> You could pick one up at the Norwood office in Kilworthy, ON. Apparently, they get their cant hooks from LogRite and paint them orange to match their mills. You'll never need another one!



Hey Dave,

Your PM box in here is full, and neither of the two email addys you gave me work! Are you on the run, or just hideing out??? lol

SR


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## Dave Boyt (Sep 26, 2012)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> Your PM box in here is full, and neither of the two email addys you gave me work! Are you on the run, or just hideing out??? lol
> 
> SR



I'd love to hide out for a bit, but the wrong people still find me. Seriously, I have been gone a lot, and have had some serious computer problems. I've cleaned out my PM box, so please try again. Always good to hear from you.


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