# Stihl MS-441 C-M Dies After Idling



## MtnMike (Dec 20, 2013)

Need your expert opinions and experiences with the MS-441 CM and its idling behavior.

Here's my problem. After bringing down a few trees and doing a bit of limbing and bucking, I'll set my saw down and let it idle while I move a little debris out of my way...usually around 20-30 seconds. As soon as I grab it and pick it up off the ground she'll stumble and die every time. It starts right up again and runs fine, but if I set it down, and let it idle for 20-30 seconds, as soon as I grab it and pick it up...it dies again. This happens nearly every time I set the saw down.

I took it to one dealer who said they couldn't recreate the problem. I took it to another dealer who thought the "metering diaphragm was a little stiff." The Stihl head office in Denver gave the shop to go-ahead to replace the entire carb, which they did.

I got a chance to take out a medium-sized honey locust tree the other day, and sure enough, every time I set the saw down, idled it, and picked it up again, it died.

Seems to happen regardless of the saw temperature, but slightly more common when the saw is warmed up. And the saw has done this since it was new.

A fellow at the Stihl head office in Denver sent me the M-Tronic carb reset procedure and asked that I try it in the field to see if it made any difference. I performed the routine as described, and it made no difference at all. Still dies when you pick it up.

Here's a video of the behavior:

Conditions: ~35-degrees, elevation ~7800', TruFuel 50:1.

So, the questions:

1. M-Tronic owners: Have you seen your saw do this? Does your saw hold a nice sturdy idle all the time?
2. Anybody have any idea what's going on and how to fix it?

Intermountain Stihl in Denver has been really great to work with, and they said to send it down to them if it keeps exhibiting this behavior, which I plan to do in the next week or so, but in the meantime I thought I'd poll you guys and see what you thought.

Any insights are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


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## nmurph (Dec 20, 2013)

Well, it's dumping too much fuel into the carb...that's the duh part. Why??? I don't have a clue. I think this is the first problem I have seen with the M-tronic carbs. It sounds like the distro is being good about helping you out!!!!


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## naturelover (Dec 21, 2013)

Pulling or pinching something when picking it up? 

Maybe try flexing the handles a bit while on the ground? Wonder if you'd bring it off idle before picking it up?

Another thing that popped into my head was its overcompensating for an air leak?

(On phone and can't see video...)


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


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## CR500 (Dec 21, 2013)

did you re-calibrate the new carb?


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## MtnMike (Dec 21, 2013)

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the quick replies. Some things to think about there: Air leak and/or fuel dump. I'll hang on to that for the next time I talk to the distributor. Who, indeed, has been really helpful so far. 

I'll try "torquing" the chassis while it's on the ground and see what happens, but I really don't *think* it's a "mechanical" issue. At least not "mechanical" in the sense that I'm pinching a fuel line or shorting the spark plug.

I did re-calibrate the new carb. No change.  

CR500: You have the same saw (except for the Snellerizing), I presume yours idled nice and steady before being Snellerized? That's what I'd like to get: Some feedback from other 441CM owners on their saw's idling behavior.


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## Stihlman441 (Dec 21, 2013)

MtnMike said:


> Need your expert opinions and experiences with the MS-441 CM and its idling behavior.
> 
> Here's my problem. After bringing down a few trees and doing a bit of limbing and bucking, I'll set my saw down and let it idle while I move a little debris out of my way...usually around 20-30 seconds. As soon as I grab it and pick it up off the ground she'll stumble and die every time. It starts right up again and runs fine, but if I set it down, and let it idle for 20-30 seconds, as soon as I grab it and pick it up...it dies again. This happens nearly every time I set the saw down.
> 
> ...




Yes i did have to same problem with one of mine,i sent it back to Brad Snelling and he fixed it,contact him.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 21, 2013)

I believe Brad lowered the carb metering lever, seemed to work fine after that. Does the saw hesitate when it idles for 10 seconds or so?


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## imagineero (Dec 21, 2013)

One of mine does the same, the other two are fine. There's a technique for dealing with it, but it's kinda tricky. First, walk towards the saw, but then, make out like you just noticed your shoe lace is undone. Be sure and do this within arms reach of the saw or you're wasting your time. Bend over and start fussing with your laces, then make a quick lunge for the saw and get on the throttle real fast before picking the saw up. You've got to be quick with it or the saw works out what's going on. 

Shaun


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## memory (Dec 21, 2013)

I have the 441RCM version, pretty much the same as yours but with the larger dawgs, HO oiler, stiffer springs and full wrap handle. Anyways, mine does not die when idling for a few seconds but it does come real close. I normally don't let mine idle that long but I will let it idle for a few seconds and I do notice a change in rpm's when I pick it up, it acts like it wants to die. I don't think it ever has. Even when carrying the saw while it is idling, when I bring it back up, there is a change. Now that you bring this issue up with yours, I will look into it more closely. I never really gave it much thought. 

My saw is less than a year old.


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## Swamp Yankee (Dec 21, 2013)

Not much help but,

My MS441C-M was purchased when they first came out guessing close to a couple years ago. No issues idling, accelerating, or cutting at rpm. It has been rock solid reliable as any saw I've ever owned. After watching your video however, at idle my saw does not sound at all like yours. Mine has a much smoother idle almost no change in pitch or speed, whether being held, sitting on the ground, or even laying on its side there is no difference. Yours seems to be adjusting frequently, or at least sounds that way to me. Completely different from mine.

It's good that Stihl wants to work with you to resolve the issue. I know from experience how frustrating it can be to have issues with a saw and have the dealer and manufacturer tell you to go away and pound sand.

Some info that may help the saw gurus diagnose the problem. How long ago did you buy the saw? Any idea how many hours are on it? Was this a problem from day one, or a more recent development?

Wish you the best, hope all is resolved to your satisfaction.

Take Care


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## CR500 (Dec 21, 2013)

I actually had my saw sent back to Brad for a pop-up piston and I believe that he did lower the metering lever just a fuzz. Before that though it would idle fine but lets say 10 mins of idling it would load up and be really rich until it cleared out.


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## FLRA_Dave (Dec 21, 2013)

I got my MS441R C-M in October. It had died on me once while I was picking it up off the ground. I can usually count on it sounding like it wants to die when I pick out up off the ground when It is idling for more than a few seconds. Glad to hear that I wasn't the only one this happens to.


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## AKDoug (Dec 21, 2013)

Mine never gets set down to idle that long. I'll have to play with it tomorrow.


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## stihl for life (Dec 21, 2013)

have any of you guys changed your mix in gas? say u run 50-1 try mixing a tank at 40-1 or 32-1 and see if that runs any better or if u are running at say 32-1 try running 40-1 or 50-1.


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## confused8122 (Dec 22, 2013)

My 441 rcm was new last may. Has about 9-10 gallons of fuel through it. From day 1 it has had an odd stalling problem. It is not as frequent now as it was when new. Randomly at idle it stalls, sounds just like someone turned it off. Has happened while idling in my hand, but mostly when I set it down and turn my back for a moment or 2. It always starts back up on the first pull. 

It happens just enough to piss me off, and make me worry that something isn't right, but not often enough for me to actually do something about it. 

If any of this helps you, I don't know. But interested in what you find with your saw. 

Nick


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## KG441c (Dec 22, 2013)

Ive got a new 441c that when pinched or binds alil and you pull on handle it wants to accelerate just alil. Anyone experienced this?


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## zogger (Dec 22, 2013)

confused8122 said:


> My 441 rcm was new last may. Has about 9-10 gallons of fuel through it. From day 1 it has had an odd stalling problem. It is not as frequent now as it was when new. Randomly at idle it stalls, sounds just like someone turned it off. Has happened while idling in my hand, but mostly when I set it down and turn my back for a moment or 2. It always starts back up on the first pull.
> 
> It happens just enough to piss me off, and make me worry that something isn't right, but not often enough for me to actually do something about it.
> 
> ...



You are still under warranty? Wouldn't hurt to tote it to the dealer. That's the second advantage with buying new gear, first is..its new, second is, free warranty work. You paid for that.


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## blsnelling (Dec 22, 2013)

It can be a combination of the metering lever height and the little adjustable set screw that changes when the fresh air butterfly opens in respect to the other butterfly. If not set right, it will affect idle. I've had this problem with numerous 441CMs.


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## MtnMike (Dec 22, 2013)

Hey guys,

Thanks for the information! Some pretty good stuff to think about...



Stihlman441 said:


> Yes i did have to same problem with one of mine,i sent it back to Brad Snelling and he fixed it,contact him.



Stihlman441: You have a lot of M-Tronic in your shed. Was it just the one saw that exhibited a similar behavior to mine? Andre thinks Brad lowered the carb metering lever (see quote below)--is that what he did? (I'll see if he weighs in on this thread, otherwise I'll PM him...)



Andyshine77 said:


> I believe Brad lowered the carb metering lever, seemed to work fine after that. Does the saw hesitate when it idles for 10 seconds or so?



Andre: I'll add this to my list of things to mention to the distro when I send my saw to him. This sounds like a pretty good lead, based on what I've learned in the last couple of hours since hearing the term "carb metering lever."  In terms of how long the saw needs to idle before it hesitates/dies on retrieval, the shorter the idle interval, the less likely it is to die when I pick it up. I'll have to do a bit more testing, but I think ten seconds would probably cause the same behavior, probably, 60% of the time. If it idles for just a short period--such as the amount of time it takes to re-position yourself for a felling cut or the back cut--it'll keep running. Good question. I think the hesitation and dying is related to the length of the idle period.



imagineero said:


> One of mine does the same, the other two are fine. There's a technique for dealing with it, but it's kinda tricky. First, walk towards the saw, but then, make out like you just noticed your shoe lace is undone. Be sure and do this within arms reach of the saw or you're wasting your time. Bend over and start fussing with your laces, then make a quick lunge for the saw and get on the throttle real fast before picking the saw up. You've got to be quick with it or the saw works out what's going on.



Shaun: Haha! Try to fake out the saw...funny. I'll try that on my wife's cat sometime...not sure it'll work on my saw. You did mention something that caught my attention: One of your saws does this. What variety of saw do you have? Is it an M-Tronic?



memory said:


> I have the 441RCM version...Even when carrying the saw while it is idling, when I bring it back up, there is a change. Now that you bring this issue up with yours, I will look into it more closely. I never really gave it much thought.



Memory: We have the same saw, the R version. I'll be interested to hear your experience after you "look into it more closely." I'm curious if you find a consistent dying problem with your saw. Get the saw good and warm, then give it a 20-second idle. This will be another good data point along with Stihlman's, Shaun's and FLRA_Dave's saws. Thanks!



Swamp Yankee said:


> ...at idle my saw does not sound at all like yours. Mine has a much smoother idle almost no change in pitch or speed, whether being held, sitting on the ground, or even laying on its side there is no difference. Yours seems to be adjusting frequently, or at least sounds that way to me. Completely different from mine. Some info that may help the saw gurus diagnose the problem. How long ago did you buy the saw? Any idea how many hours are on it? Was this a problem from day one, or a more recent development?



Swamp Yankee: Now that is interesting. I thought my saw idled kind of randomly too, but wasn't sure as this is my first M-Tronic saw. Thanks for that insight! As for your other questions: Saw is almost exactly six months old, it has about 16 hours on it, and it has done this since the day it was born. I thought this problem would go away after several hours and tank fillings, and maybe I'm just not there yet, but it hasn't and it's bugging me.



FLRA_Dave said:


> I got my MS441R C-M in October. It had died on me once while I was picking it up off the ground. I can usually count on it sounding like it wants to die when I pick out up off the ground when It is idling for more than a few seconds. Glad to hear that I wasn't the only one this happens to.



FLRA_Dave: Thanks for the feedback. While this may not be a universal defect, it sounds like it's not entirely uncommon behavior. I'll certainly post back here with the results of my quest to fix this in case your saw degenerates to the point of dying like mine.



AKDoug said:


> Mine never gets set down to idle that long. I'll have to play with it tomorrow.



AKDoug: If you're out cutting anyway, I would be interested to hear what you find. See my response to Memory above..get yer saw warmed up, give it a solid 20s idle on the ground, then pick it up with a sturdy grip. Thanks!



stihl for life said:


> have any of you guys changed your mix in gas? say u run 50-1 try mixing a tank at 40-1 or 32-1 and see if that runs any better or if u are running at say 32-1 try running 40-1 or 50-1.



Since having caught up with a lot of the discussion here on ArboristSite, I have decided to run 40:1 using Bel-Ray in my saw...and I can get 91-octane E0 fuel in town. So I'll mix up some of that and see what happens. I don't *think* it'll make a difference, but it's worth trying. Fuel can's getting low anyway...

So, long post. But some great discussion. Thanks guys! Keep it coming. I'll be sure to post back as I continue to work through this and when I find an ultimate resolution.


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## MtnMike (Dec 22, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> It can be a combination of the metering lever height and the little adjustable set screw that changes when the fresh air butterfly opens in respect to the other butterfly. If not set right, it will affect idle. I've had this problem with numerous 441CMs.



Great info--thanks Brad! This is just what I was hoping to hear, that someone knew of something substantive that might be improperly adjusted.

When you say these two items can affect the idle, what aspect of idling do you mean? Does it cause a low idle, a high idle, a "delicate" idle, an erratic idle ('cuz I have that too!)...or any/all of the above?

I'll give the warranty process a chance to work, but this saw's next stop might be your shop. 

Thanks again!


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## blsnelling (Dec 22, 2013)

Erratic idle, won't idle down as quick as it should, dies if picked too fast. Basically, what your saw is doing.


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## confused8122 (Dec 22, 2013)

zogger said:


> You are still under warranty? Wouldn't hurt to tote it to the dealer. That's the second advantage with buying new gear, first is..its new, second is, free warranty work. You paid for that.



Yup, it happens just often enough for me to to say 'it's new, it shouldn't do that'. But random enough that my odds of my dealer telling me that it runs fine are pretty good. 
I work on cars for a living, i like to fix things right the first time. It is rare, but for the odd random problem, that doesn't cause any real problems, I am not afraid to ask a customer to wait till it gets worse, it will be easier to find. This goes along with one of the first steps to fixing anything. Confirm the customer complaint. 
I am afraid my dealer won't be able to confirm my complaint. But I know I I have my warranty. Before the first year is up, it will definitely go in for a free check-up. Maybe there is a tsb to fix my saw. Maybe they will say nothing is wrong. At least I will have on record a complaint. So when the problem suddenly gets worse a week out of warranty, I have a leg to stand on. 


And I work on older out of warranty cars, all customer pay. If I was doing warranty work, my opinions might be different.


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## memory (Dec 22, 2013)

MtnMike, I used my saw the other day to do some noodling and it never did die. I did let it idle for 20 seconds or so and it didn't die when I picked it up although it does kind of stutter a little. 

Although it rarely dies, it does seem to idle rough. I just figure that is the m-tronic doing its thing by always adjusting itself. I could be wrong as this is my first m-tronic saw and my first Stihl so I don't have a lot to judge it against.


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## MtnMike (Dec 22, 2013)

Brad: Thanks for the additional detail. I'll mention this diagnosis to my dealer and ask them to take a closer look at the metering lever and butterfly adjustment. The erratic idle and dying if picked up too fast certainly describes my condition.

Memory: Thanks for the follow up! And I'm in the same boat you are...first M-Tronic, and first Stihl chainsaw (had a Stihl trimmer for 17 years). So I've been kinda of struggling with what I'm experiencing--where does it fall in the realm of "normal behavior."


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## imagineero (Dec 22, 2013)

MtnMike said:


> Shaun: Haha! Try to fake out the saw...funny. I'll try that on my wife's cat sometime...not sure it'll work on my saw. You did mention something that caught my attention: One of your saws does this. What variety of saw do you have? Is it an M-Tronic?



I've got 3 of the 441mtronics, they're similar in age/hours and they all get used daily. Only one dies out when you pick it up, the other 2 are fine. I've tried the reset procedure, no difference. They all get fresh mix daily


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## MtnMike (Dec 23, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I've got 3 of the 441mtronics, they're similar in age/hours and they all get used daily. Only one dies out when you pick it up, the other 2 are fine. I've tried the reset procedure, no difference. They all get fresh mix daily



Yup, my experience too--well, except for the part about having two saws that DO work.

Fuel quality and carb logic don't seem to be a factor. Based on what's been discussed so far, sounds like a mechanical issue. That's definitely what I'm going to check next, er, have the dealer check next. Thanks for the info though. You have a unique body of experience having three of the same saw. Very helpful in a situation like this.


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## imagineero (Dec 23, 2013)

I think the metering valve thing sounds like it's the culprit. I haven't tried swapping the carbs out, it hasn't bothered me all that much yet. Kind of annoying though. One of my 044's couple years ago did the same thing and i just lived with it

I keep 3 of each saw, so we take a dozen to site most days. The 441's have 20", 25" and 28" bars, 660's have 36" bars, 346xp's have 16" bars and climbing saws all run 12" bars. Having plenty of saws means not stopping to sharpen during the day which keeps the crew moving, and making money. Having multiples of the same saw makes trouble shooting real easy, and means that you don't have to be in a hurry to get something fixed that day - it can sit on a shelf in the shop until time/parts are available.


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## NoBark (Dec 23, 2013)

Not a saw but, the behavior of your saw is similar to trolling with an old carbureted 2 stoke outboard for awhile. You're out trolling for halibut then all the suddenly, "Oh ****, the fishery officers are coming! Gotta get out a here!" you give the outboard just a little bit more throttle and she quits. Fuel has puddled too much in the crankcase and now that you're giving it more throttle, it takes in all that puddled fuel in one gulp. Next thing you know, you're being arrested for catching 1 to many halibuts. Some outboards that have the floats adjusted too rich won't even last a few minutes of trolling. I've seen guys bringing in their boats to dock them, and as the boat is slowly idling up to the dock, they hit reverse and the outboard quits. Not sure why its happening to your saw just from picking it up and not giving it any throttle although picking the saw up could cause puddled fuel to get sucked in.

Something I want to add is, does it die if you give it throttle without picking the saw up? I watched your video and was hoping you would try something like. That would debunk my puddling fuel theory if the saw doesn't die from giving it throttle and possibly even eliminating the carb as even being an issue.


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## MtnMike (Dec 28, 2013)

NoBark said:


> ...does it die if you give it throttle without picking the saw up? I watched your video and was hoping you would try something like. That would debunk my puddling fuel theory if the saw doesn't die from giving it throttle and possibly even eliminating the carb as even being an issue.



NoBark: If I have the presence of mind, and both the saw B&C and I are in a safe orientation (neither of us is in the dirt, for example ), I can blip--or full-on goose--the throttle and the saw keeps running, revs right up and runs great, and I can heft my saw with impunity. This is my current work-around, but it's a pain.

Thanks for the thoughts, tho'!


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## memory (Jan 3, 2014)

MtnMike, did you ever take your saw to get it checked out? If so, I am curious as to what you found out.

I was cutting a few logs today and the same thing happened to my saw. I had it sitting on the ground idling for at least 20 seconds, picked it up and it died but started right back up. I tried a few more times to get it to do the same thing again but couldn't. I just wonder if I have the same problem as you and is it serious enough to get it checkded out.


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## MtnMike (Jan 7, 2014)

Hey Memory,

My saw has been in for service twice for this issue. Dealer one couldn't recreate the problem. Dealer two recreated it and replaced the entire carb under warranty. That, however, still didn't fix the issue. From what others have said in this thread, there's a very very good chance the metering lever is set incorrectly (or is otherwise defective). Odd that I had two carbs with a maladjusted metering lever*, but that's what I'm going to ask the dealer to investigate when the saw goes back for it's third visit, which should be in the next week or so. I'll let you know what comes of the third hospital stay.

* = I wonder if a "carb replacement" is just replacing the carb core, and many (all?) "moving parts" from the old carb are scavenged and put on the new carb core--including the hosed metering lever. Dunno...anybody got a guess?


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## delboy1 (Jan 21, 2014)

Working with repair shop here in Ireland,we have had one customer who has just returned his third 441 CM to us.All the above problems with the saws.First one just became unusable.Sent back to stihl who replaced carb.Customer refused to have it so they agreed to take back and gave him new one.This worked for three weeks before starting same symptoms and eventually would not stay running at all.We refused to work on it and sent it back.Same outcome.Third saw given but within ten gallons of fuel refused to start.Damaged piston and barrel we think.our opinion is that the saw was over revving.Stihl wont agree with us but took saw and sent to expert analysist.They have now supplied a fourth saw.Our customer refuses to take it and they are refusing to admit to us that these saws have a problem. Being unable to tune it we are reluctant to sell it either.We dont think the metering is correct for our climate and cant adjust.Stihl remain silent but am sure if nothing was wrong they would not be willing to replace so quick.We sell thirty oer so stihl saws most years,


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## XSKIER (Jan 21, 2014)

Ireland huh? Is your customer running a 13 inch guide bar on those MS 441 C-Ms?


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 21, 2014)

delboy1 said:


> Working with repair shop here in Ireland,we have had one customer who has just returned his third 441 CM to us.All the above problems with the saws.First one just became unusable.Sent back to stihl who replaced carb.Customer refused to have it so they agreed to take back and gave him new one.This worked for three weeks before starting same symptoms and eventually would not stay running at all.We refused to work on it and sent it back.Same outcome.Third saw given but within ten gallons of fuel refused to start.Damaged piston and barrel we think.our opinion is that the saw was over revving.Stihl wont agree with us but took saw and sent to expert analysist.They have now supplied a fourth saw.Our customer refuses to take it and they are refusing to admit to us that these saws have a problem. Being unable to tune it we are reluctant to sell it either.We dont think the metering is correct for our climate and cant adjust.Stihl remain silent but am sure if nothing was wrong they would not be willing to replace so quick.We sell thirty oer so stihl saws most years,



Interesting.
I have used,stock,muff modded,ported 441Cs (i think about 8 of them) over the last 3 ish years and never had a problem that you describe above.?


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## AKDoug (Jan 21, 2014)

MtnMike said:


> Hey Memory,
> 
> My saw has been in for service twice for this issue. Dealer one couldn't recreate the problem. Dealer two recreated it and replaced the entire carb under warranty. That, however, still didn't fix the issue. From what others have said in this thread, there's a very very good chance the metering lever is set incorrectly (or is otherwise defective). Odd that I had two carbs with a maladjusted metering lever*, but that's what I'm going to ask the dealer to investigate when the saw goes back for it's third visit, which should be in the next week or so. I'll let you know what comes of the third hospital stay.
> 
> * = I wonder if a "carb replacement" is just replacing the carb core, and many (all?) "moving parts" from the old carb are scavenged and put on the new carb core--including the hosed metering lever. Dunno...anybody got a guess?


Every Stihl carb I have replaced has come complete. I have no reason to believe that a C-M carb would be any different.


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## hamish (Jan 21, 2014)

XSKIER said:


> Ireland huh? Is your customer running a 13 inch guide bar on those MS 441 C-Ms?


I run a 15" on my 576XPAT at times, who cares if his customers run a 13" bar, get the **** over to Ireland or in my backyard and see what we may be cutting that day.

Gee an M-Tronic with an issue wow. Who could have thought. From reading this post seems they have finally sold 17 of them.


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## XSKIER (Jan 21, 2014)

Have your xpats been holding up to over revving?


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## stihlonlynow (Jan 21, 2014)

Sounds a lot like what my 562 is doing. The longer you let it idle the worse it gets. I got a couple of questions for ya...
Does the cm have a Zama carb?
How much do you lower the metering lever?
Is there a procedure to time the butterfly's?
Thanks


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## hamish (Jan 21, 2014)

XSKIER said:


> Have your xpats been holding up to over revving?


Glad to see you don't know much about M-Tronic or AutoTune saws. Lean out test on MT/AT saws every second utilizing rpm as its main indicator, doesn't allow for over revving, regardless of bar length.


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## XSKIER (Jan 21, 2014)

Oh.


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## MustangMike (Jan 21, 2014)

hamish said:


> I run a 15" on my 576XPAT at times, who cares if his customers run a 13" bar, get the **** over to Ireland or in my backyard and see what we may be cutting that day.
> 
> Gee an M-Tronic with an issue wow. Who could have thought. From reading this post seems they have finally sold 17 of them.



I was just thinking, they tell me all this now, after I already bought my new 362 C-M !!!! Hopefully I will escape the gremlins!


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## hedge hog (Jan 21, 2014)

first post so don't bash me,
the mtronic I think has a problem with the factory set idle screw and they made it tamperproof so it cant be adjusted so they are told to replace it like they did mine and it did fix the problem of dying on my saw.
but at idle the mtronics uses the timing to change the rpm before it uses the fuel to try and speed it up at idle and if not set right it dyes before the fuel can pick it up
metering level can be the problem but it wasn't in my case
I'm watching a 261 with this same problem to see what the fix will be on it but I'm sure they will replace the carb
not impressed with the diagnostic unit they test these saw with, mines been hooked up a dozen times and said there was nothing wrong with the saw before the carb was replaced and said there was something wrong but it didn't know what when the decompression valve was leaking
love the saw , love the power, hate the bugs!


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2014)

I have a 441 cm r , Ive had stalling problems with from the get go, saw is maybe a month old , put 5 gallons fuel through it would still stall, mine would actually stall when letting off after a cut , it would be like I turned it off not even a stumble first, if I set it down it would stall withing 20 seconds, dropped it off at the dealer and he did the recalibrate thing with the diagnostic tool, said he let it idle for 20 minutes with no issues, picked it up this morning will try it out Saturday really hope it's fixed,

What is the reset I can do without the diagnostic tool


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## hedge hog (Jan 21, 2014)

90 seconds with the choke on then turn it off when you blip the throttle
its the same with or without the diagnostic tool hooked up


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## hamish (Jan 21, 2014)

There is a reason why on Gen1 AT systems they added a idle screw.


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## hedge hog (Jan 21, 2014)

that was a smart move on there part
and would think that stihl would do that soon


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

hedge hog said:


> 90 seconds with the choke on then turn it off when you blip the throttle
> its the same with or without the diagnostic tool hooked up



Are you saying to run the saw for 90 sec with the choke on to re calibrate it? I presume you would only do this if you are having a problem? The idle on my 362 C-M is very low, wish I could adjust it, but it usually just keeps running. I do try not to idle it much, I don't think it is ever good for a saw. That said, I can't stand a saw that won't idle.

MustangMike


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## hedge hog (Jan 22, 2014)

yep mine idled very low then got into the dying stage and stihl said to put a new carb on it.
didn't think it was right because the midrange and top end was just as strong as any other c-m I have ran.
the recalibration it think was 60 seconds and the dealer show me a update that shows 90 .
a friends 261 c-m idles like a old john deere B but it has never died
I would like to see some one figure out how turn the idle up for the people out warranty
stihl says don't screw with the screw?


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## delboy1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Our customer uses a 20 inch bar.He is a professional with forty years experience. If contributers cant add anything constructive please refrain from mocking me.


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## XSKIER (Jan 22, 2014)

No need to get butt hurt about it:

Just trying to understand over revving. I under revved mine with a 8 tooth and low rackers. It ran too ritch.


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## delboy1 (Jan 22, 2014)

We are waiting for engineers report.Stihls own oil was used as that is all we sell.The only answer they would give us was that the fuel mixture was within their specs.Crankshaft seals,inlet manifold leak,weak air fuel mix ,we just dont know.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 22, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Are you saying to run the saw for 90 sec with the choke on to re calibrate it? I presume you would only do this if you are having a problem? The idle on my 362 C-M is very low, wish I could adjust it, but it usually just keeps running. I do try not to idle it much, I don't think it is ever good for a saw. That said, I can't stand a saw that won't idle.
> 
> MustangMike



Here's the actual calibration blub from the manual.


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

Ozhoo said:


> Here's the actual calibration blub from the manual.
> 
> View attachment 329444



Thanks you Gary, that is great information to know. Would you recommend doing this after making a minor change like removing the screen from the muffler?

Thanks again, great information.
MustangMike


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2014)

It can't be true......no M-Tronic saws have faults. 

I'm not buying it......nope.....sorry.

Can't be true.


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

What do you think Randy, would you re-calibrate the M-Tronic after removing the Muffler Screen? I presume this procedure is necessary after you perform your porting work?


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2014)

I never did that to any after porting Mike......this 661 is the first I ever reset.


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

The 661 must be a beast, especially after you get done with it!


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2014)

I've not got it figured out yet. My first attempt only netted a 12% gain.


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

I think most people would consider 12% a great success, but I know your standards are high.

Do most M-Tronic saws have a low idle, and do you think I should try that "reset" procedure? I hope to do some cutting on Sat, it has been so darn cold up here. Our high today was 11 degrees! Not fun when the wind blows.


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## Mastermind (Jan 22, 2014)

I'd put some time on it.....


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## MustangMike (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks, will do.


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## MtnMike (Jan 23, 2014)

Hey Gents.

Unfortunately I'm still waiting to take my saw back in for it's third visit to the Dying-M-Tronic-Saw Clinic, so I don't have any new news about my particular idling problem. As soon as I do, of course, I'll post back here.

I do have an update to the M-Tronic calibration procedure, however. With all due respect to OzHoo, I think I have a newer procedure. This is what I got from the Stihl distributor in Denver about a month ago:

1. With the chain brake engaged…
a. Hold throttle and set start lever to Start position (*Δ*)
b. Start saw and let idle in Start position (*Δ*) for 90 seconds
c. Blip throttle to bring the machine to the Run position (*I*)
d. Immediately move lever to Stop position (*O*)
e. This will reset the carb to original factory setting.

2. With the chain brake engaged…
a. Hold throttle and set start lever to Start position (*Δ*)
b. Start saw then Blip throttle to bring the machine to the Run position (*I*)
c. Let idle in Run position (*I*) for 90 seconds
d. Immediately move lever to Stop position (*O*)
e. This will calibrate the idling characteristics of the saw.

3. With the chain brake engaged…
a. Hold throttle and set start lever to Start position (*Δ*)
b. Start saw then Blip throttle to bring the machine to the Run position (*I*)
c. Disengage chain brake and make five uniform cuts through a minimum 12-inch-diameter log.
d. This will calibrate the full throttle characteristics of the saw.

Done.

Of course I did this after my carb was replaced, and it didn't make a hill of beans of difference. I think I have a mechanical problem (carb metering lever).

Anyway...thought this might be useful.


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## Stihlman441 (Jan 23, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Thanks you Gary, that is great information to know. Would you recommend doing this after making a minor change like removing the screen from the muffler?
> 
> Thanks again, great information.
> MustangMike


 
Havnt found the need to after muff modds.


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## AKDoug (Jan 23, 2014)

It was useful. I haven't received this info as a dealer and I appreciate it.


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## Ozhoo (Jan 23, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> Thanks you Gary, that is great information to know. Would you recommend doing this after making a minor change like removing the screen from the muffler?
> 
> Thanks again, great information.
> MustangMike



Mike,
That procedure is only used when the control module is replaced. It's used to initiate a "hand shake" procedure between the control module and the carb. A little private time for them to get to know each other, before their first day out in the woods .


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## Ozhoo (Jan 23, 2014)

MtnMike,
The procedure that I posted is only used after components are replaced while the procedure that you've posted is used when operating conditions have changed. One is at the technical level while the other is operational if that clears it up.


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## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks for posting that.......I'll be using that on used saws that I port.


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## MustangMike (Jan 23, 2014)

I've learned a few things. Just like learning to drive differently when they introduced anti-lock breaks (no more pumping the break pedal), I think I will operate my M-Tronic saw a little differently. I will no longer "rush" to hit the throttle when she starts, seems like the new saws are designed to idle when in the choke position, and I will stop making sure I gun the throttle a few times before shutting it off. Always did that to "clean it out", but maybe that is why my idle stays low and does not set properly.

Thanks for the information guys, I appreciate it.

MustangMike


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## Mastermind (Jan 23, 2014)

I have a 441 and a 261 both ported M-T saws. I love them both......I hate to see any issues from either brand on the stuff. When it's working right, it's a dream come true for me as a modifier. The one thing I worry over is whether a guy will be able to properly tune the saw after I mod it and send it home. AutoTune takes that worry away.


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## AKDoug (Jan 23, 2014)

MustangMike said:


> I've learned a few things. Just like learning to drive differently when they introduced anti-lock breaks (no more pumping the break pedal), I think I will operate my M-Tronic saw a little differently. I will no longer "rush" to hit the throttle when she starts, seems like the new saws are designed to idle when in the choke position, and I will stop making sure I gun the throttle a few times before shutting it off. Always did that to "clean it out", but maybe that is why my idle stays low and does not set properly.
> 
> Thanks for the information guys, I appreciate it.
> 
> MustangMike


That is the biggest thing I noticed about my 441C-M, it definitely requires a bit more idle time than my other saws. I am actually glad for that feature because it forces the user to warm it up a bit.


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## Mad Manitoban (Feb 1, 2014)

I recently picked up a new 441 C-M, mine is having issues similar to yours.

After felling and part way through limbing, while I clear away slash, the saw will die at idle.
The idle is fairly rough in general too once the saw is warmed up.
It starts right back up, but often bogs and spooges *a lot* to get back to the top end.
Keep it in the top and don't let it idle long, and all is well.
Let it idle and things go south, more pronounced when the saw is warm.
It also displays the same tendency to quit when picked up, or bounced while walking over rough terrain.

I have had it back to the dealer where I purchased it, they weren't any help, actually got a fair bit of attitude from the owner.
Basically blamed me saying I ran bad gas, I don't know how to run a saw, on and on.
He did admit to never having worked on any M-Tronic saws yet, surprising since these guys sell a fair number of saws, even having the contract to supply the City of Winnipeg crews.
I tried the reset procedures that have been shown here, still the problem persists.

I guess my next step is to talk to someone at Stihl, since I won't be going back to the dealer where I purchased it.


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## XSKIER (Feb 1, 2014)

Maybe mweba should try an accelerator pump block off kit on the MS 441 C-M and post a video? I'll bet the stumbley idle/off idle performance has little to do with the actual M-Tronic processes. If not, I'd be interested in taking a look at your saw.


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## KenJax Tree (Feb 1, 2014)

WOW! M-Tronic problems?? Say is ain't so


Sent from my Autotune Carb


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## XSKIER (Feb 1, 2014)

KenJax Tree said:


> WOW! M-Tronic problems?? Say is ain't so
> 
> 
> Sent from my Autotune Carb



Is ain't so! Carb problems can be fixed, flimsy is forever.


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## mdavlee (Feb 1, 2014)

Well the 261and 441 feel like huskies so they must have noticed flimsy sells.

Any one have a problem with the saws running rich after port work with short bars? The 576 I did wouldn't run good with a 20" and 7 pin. It would 4 stroke in the cut. An 8 pin and lower rakers fixed it.


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## Knobby57 (Feb 1, 2014)

There was post somewhere under a chain sharpening thread that someone had this issue and isolated it to a poorly sharpened chain with improperly set rakers . Just guessing hear but iff the chain is grabby or very dull and if the saw uses a rpm variation differential to adjust mixture I can see how the saw could over adjust mixture and course stalling and bogging , but that being said I had the same stalling issues with my new 441 CMR , had it to the dealer to do the racalibrate , I amd meticulous with my chains and tooth length and racer night is dead on I use a stihl USG, even had the same issues with new out of package chains , so anyone's guess is as good as mine , but it really does seem like a software issue to me , I will have the 441 out for a test run in the morning so I guess I'll see,


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## MustangMike (Feb 1, 2014)

Knobby57 said:


> There was post somewhere under a chain sharpening thread that someone had this issue and isolated it to a poorly sharpened chain with improperly set rakers . Just guessing hear but iff the chain is grabby or very dull and if the saw uses a rpm variation differential to adjust mixture I can see how the saw could over adjust mixture and course stalling and bogging , but that being said I had the same stalling issues with my new 441 CMR , had it to the dealer to do the racalibrate , I amd meticulous with my chains and tooth length and racer night is dead on I use a stihl USG, even had the same issues with new out of package chains , so anyone's guess is as good as mine , but it really does seem like a software issue to me , I will have the 441 out for a test run in the morning so I guess I'll see,



I did not have a problem with chain sharpening, but the first time I ran my MS 362 C-M it cut small & medium wood great, but bogged in big wood. The problem seemed to be related to "break in" which the manual says should take 5 - 15 tanks of fuel. After 6 tanks of fuel, my saw is running very strong and no longer exhibits this symptom. May be an issue related to new C-M saws. Hope this is helpful.

Ps Went to Wilkes Barre when I was in college in upstate NY, they have a big wrestling tournament there.


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## stihlonlynow (Feb 10, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well261and 441 feel like huskies so they must have noticed flimsy sellI had to tell .
> 
> Any one have a problem with the saws running rich after port work with short bars? The 576 I did wouldn't run good with a 20" and 7 pin. It would 4 stroke in the cut. An 8 pin and lower rakers fixed it.


I notice 4 stroking in the cut with both my ported saws. I let an old farmer friend run my 550...he owns a 346.. and I had to tell him to show it some wood. The 4 stroking sound in the cut is like nails on the chalkboard. Lower the rakers problem solved....


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## blsnelling (Feb 10, 2014)

If think your MTronic saw is more lean or rich than you want, adjust the needle height accordingly.


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## nmurph (Feb 10, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> Well the 261and 441 feel like huskies so they must have noticed flimsy sells.



Yes, they do. The 261 feels like a 357 and the 441 handles like a 385.


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## dl5205 (Feb 10, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Yes, they do. The 261 feels like a 357 and the 441 handles like a 385.



That'll make you popular.


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## nmurph (Feb 10, 2014)

dl5205 said:


> That'll make you popular.



I thought it was pretty good.


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## dl5205 (Feb 11, 2014)

nmurph, I can't believe you left that, and no one will step in it!


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## nmurph (Feb 12, 2014)

Yep, baited the trap and even Bigfoot has avoided it.

What do you think about #12 in this thread? I thought it was pretty sneaky myself.

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261cm-362cm.252258/


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## Nuzzy (Feb 12, 2014)

nmurph said:


> Yep, baited the trap and even Bigfoot has avoided it.
> 
> What do you think about #12 in this thread? I thought it was pretty sneaky myself.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/stihl-261cm-362cm.252258/




I enjoyed it.


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## ash man (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't believe anyone answered the question of whether the 441 and 562 share the same zama carb...


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## XSKIER (Feb 12, 2014)

I don't believe you'll ever get an answer to that question. MS 441 R C-M guys would never pick up a 562 because it is such a flimsy piece. 562 guys could never pick up a MS 441 R C-M because their arms are too weak.


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## ash man (Feb 12, 2014)

xkid your starting to wear out the whole flimsy thing, but your right about something, Stihl is starting to make some boxy heavy boat anchors as of late.


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## AKDoug (Feb 13, 2014)

ash man said:


> I don't believe anyone answered the question of whether the 441 and 562 share the same zama carb...


HD-49B on a 441CM.... no clue what the 562 uses.


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## RedFir Down (Feb 13, 2014)

The early 562's are running the Zama EL44's and the late ones are running the EL46's


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## AKDoug (Feb 13, 2014)

Then I guess they're not the same


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## CowboyDan (Aug 30, 2018)

MtnMike said:


> Hey Gents.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm still waiting to take my saw back in for it's third visit to the Dying-M-Tronic-Saw Clinic, so I don't have any new news about my particular idling problem. As soon as I do, of course, I'll post back here.
> 
> ...


Any clue if this will help my ms201tc. It shuts off randomly at idle and idles rough


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## DND 9000 (Aug 30, 2018)

It`s possible that you have a leaking solenoid valve on your saw. That`s a common fault that gives this. Replace it or go and talk to your dealer, and see if it is alright then.


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## CowboyDan (Aug 30, 2018)

DND 9000 said:


> It`s possible that you have a leaking solenoid valve on your saw. That`s a common fault that gives this. Replace it or go and talk to your dealer, and see if it is alright then.



I appreciate it. I don’t care for my local dealer. lol. So I’ll just replace the solenoid myself. No harm no foul. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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