# What The Heck?



## redprospector (Feb 1, 2013)

I started to post this in the descriptive process, but I decided that it deserves a thread of it's own.
I was on the phone today with one of our state foresters, and he gave me some news that I found disturbing.
This is a long drawn out story, so I'll condense it for you.
According to what the state forester told me; Our county commisioners have evidently decided that they are going into the forest thinning business. They are going to be using county inmates for labor, and since there is very little market for saw logs, and virtually no market for small diameter timber, they have decided to buy the property & equipment from a defunked shavings mill and convert it into a pellet mill. They will (according to the forester) be using inmates for labor there too.

Now for my part. Over the last 18 months, I have been working at purchasing a piece of property, and equipment to put together a small pellet mill and pole peeling operation. My thoughts were while starting out I could at least have a place to go with my logs and poles. Then if things worked out maybe I could give others a market for their small diameter stuff. I've already got a pretty large investment in this little venture.

I'm going to call my county commissioner (it will probably be Monday before I can get ahold of him) and find out the skinny on this. But if it's true there is no way that I can compete with the government using inmate labor.
Have any of you seen anything similar to this?
What are your thought's on it?

Andy


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## slowp (Feb 1, 2013)

Yes. We were delighted to have an inmate crew cooking on a fire. Because their labor was cheap, they spent more on food than the usual caterer. One mornng we woke up to find out that the inmate crew was gone and the usual caterer was back. They filed a complaint and apparently it was not kosher to use govt. labor when private companies were available. I can't remember whether it was a federal or state law, I think the fire was on Forest Service land, so probably federal. 

Sounds like you have a valid grievance. But I have seen a recycler, who was making it, run out of town for some reason by a mayor, who then had the town take over, and later the county had to take over the recycling. Madness. 

Where does the profit go if the county runs it? Back into the county budget? 

Maybe you need to run for office?


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## redprospector (Feb 1, 2013)

slowp said:


> Yes. We were delighted to have an inmate crew cooking on a fire. Because their labor was cheap, they spent more on food than the usual caterer. One mornng we woke up to find out that the inmate crew was gone and the usual caterer was back. They filed a complaint and apparently it was not kosher to use govt. labor when private companies were available. I can't remember whether it was a federal or state law, I think the fire was on Forest Service land, so probably federal.
> 
> Sounds like you have a valid grievance. But I have seen a recycler, who was making it, run out of town for some reason by a mayor, who then had the town take over, and later the county had to take over the recycling. Madness.
> 
> ...



I don't know where the profit will go. Maybe I'll find that out when I talk to the commisioner.

As far as running for office...I already hold a position in our city government. :msp_sad:

If they mess with me I'll sell all my equipment to the county and run for Governor. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I don't know where the profit will go. Maybe I'll find that out when I talk to the commisioner.
> 
> As far as running for office...I already hold a position in our city government. :msp_sad:
> 
> ...



Send me an absentee ballot and I'll vote for you. 

I like Slowps thought about the conflict between using inmate labor and how it impacts an existing business.

Can't help you much beyond that but if there is anything I can do, let me know.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2013)

buddy of mine works with inmates at our local fair grounds, the cons get to clean the poopers and what not, but it still takes a handfull of very well paid guards to keep an eye on em at all times, so there is some debate as to whether its better to just pay some kids really well or pay a whole bunch of guards, to do the same job. 

DNR has the same problem with inmates for cleaning up garbage dumps, (this is kinda hearsay...) to have the inmates clean in the woods dnr has to pay for two or more guards hazard pay and a fee for each inmates used as well as transportation, meanwhile they can't even keep locks on the gates they have to keep people from dumping garbage...

Not to mention each inmate gets a little kickback for working, granted much of this gets paid out in retribution, but still, there getting paid when they really shouldn't be getting much more then a lousy meal, and a luke warm bed, but thats my opinion


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## slowp (Feb 2, 2013)

There was a county inmate crew brushing out a P-Line. I talked to one of the guards. He said they didn't get much work done and the main purpose of such work was for them to learn to work and get along with other people. In fact, production was not the main goal for them. 

Some looked old and frail but I was told that meth does that to people--they weren't that old. 

I was glad to have an easier way to walk in and out, except they didn't have big enough saws to cut the 6 foot diameter blowdowns. I still had to clamber over a half dozen of those.


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Send me an absentee ballot and I'll vote for you.
> 
> I like Slowps thought about the conflict between using inmate labor and how it impacts an existing business.
> 
> Can't help you much beyond that but if there is anything I can do, let me know.



Thanks,
I guess they figured that I don't have to deal with the government enough in this line of work. 

I thought the government was supposed to be helping to make the unemployment rate better, not taking jobs from people that aren't incarserated, and giving them to those who are. 
Hey! Maybe I could get a job. I could be one of the "bosses". You know, with the mirrored sunglasses and a shotgun shouting orders. Only difference from what I've been doing would be the sunglasses and shotgun. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> buddy of mine works with inmates at our local fair grounds, the cons get to clean the poopers and what not, but it still takes a handfull of very well paid guards to keep an eye on em at all times, so there is some debate as to whether its better to just pay some kids really well or pay a whole bunch of guards, to do the same job.
> 
> DNR has the same problem with inmates for cleaning up garbage dumps, (this is kinda hearsay...) to have the inmates clean in the woods dnr has to pay for two or more guards hazard pay and a fee for each inmates used as well as transportation, meanwhile they can't even keep locks on the gates they have to keep people from dumping garbage...
> 
> Not to mention each inmate gets a little kickback for working, granted much of this gets paid out in retribution, but still, there getting paid when they really shouldn't be getting much more then a lousy meal, and a luke warm bed, but thats my opinion



I think it's a good thing for the inmates to work, cleaning county or municipal fairgrounds is a good example.
I don't think it's a good thing for the government to use these inmates to put legitimate businesses who are struggling to eek out a profit out of business. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Feb 2, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Thanks,
> I guess they figured that I don't have to deal with the government enough in this line of work.
> 
> I thought the government was supposed to be helping to make the unemployment rate better, not taking jobs from people that aren't incarserated, and giving them to those who are.
> ...



You'd probably have to develop a southern accent and the shades have to be those mirrored aviator types. No smiling either.

Seriously though, it's a thought. Especially if you qualify as a displaced business. You might also be eligible for retraining at government cost.

I'm just thinking out loud here...I really don't know much about that kind of situation. Except for the fact that I'd be pissed off.


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

slowp said:


> There was a county inmate crew brushing out a P-Line. I talked to one of the guards. He said they didn't get much work done and the main purpose of such work was for them to learn to work and get along with other people. In fact, production was not the main goal for them.
> 
> Some looked old and frail but I was told that meth does that to people--they weren't that old.
> 
> I was glad to have an easier way to walk in and out, except they didn't have big enough saws to cut the 6 foot diameter blowdowns. I still had to clamber over a half dozen of those.



I was offered to use some of the "good" prisoners on a work release once. I would have been able to pay the jail less than minimum wage for their service (the rest was counted for community service or some such). After seeing some of the inmates, and finding that I didn't get to choose which one's I wanted, and never knowing which one's they would pick for me. I opted to hire local (semi) law abiding citizens at the going rate.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

Gologit said:


> You'd probably have to develop a southern accent and the shades have to be those mirrored aviator types. No smiling either.
> 
> Seriously though, it's a thought. Especially if you qualify as a displaced business. You might also be eligible for retraining at government cost.
> 
> I'm just thinking out loud here...I really don't know much about that kind of situation. Except for the fact that I'd be pissed off.



I've been told that it's better to be pissed off than pissed on.... Right now I'm feeling both.
I've already got the southern accent down pretty good. I was born in Lynnwood CA, and raised to the tender age of 18 in north central, and east Texas. :msp_scared: If you think Forestryworks has an accent...you ain't heard nothing yet.  And if this is what's going down...I won't have anything to smile about.
If I do get government retraining....I think I want to be an astronaut this time around. :bang:

Andy


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## Jacob J. (Feb 2, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I think it's a good thing for the inmates to work, cleaning county or municipal fairgrounds is a good example.
> I don't think it's a good thing for the government to use these inmates to put legitimate businesses who are struggling to eek out a profit out of business.
> 
> Andy



I don't know about New Mexico, but here in Oregon we have a kind of "non compete" ordinance that keeps county and state governments from using inmate or community service labor in a function that directly competes with commercial private industry. 

If they did set-up something like that, I'm guessing it would have to be under the guise of "vocational training" for the inmates or vocational rehabilitation.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 2, 2013)

What we got here is a, a, a failure to, to comunicate,

Now I don't like this any more then you men, 

but some men they just don't think

So ya get what we had here last week,

Which is the way he wants it, well he gets it....


Seriously though I'm all for convict labor, but put em on farms that feed the prison, something that effects their lives directly so they can see the connection, (blah blah yakkity smackity...) but building a bloody factory and putting other businesses out of work for profit that's kinda messed up, Also has the distinct smell of slave labor.


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## blades (Feb 2, 2013)

Well if ya want to call it slave labor, fine, just remember the cost to the taxpayers per incarcerated individual is $40k per year minimum.


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## blades (Feb 2, 2013)

To the Op, only thing I see here is if you are not already up and running, then at this point it is not a situation of putting you out of that portion of your business. Best to hire out to them as a permanent consultant at a six figure salary of course ( no sense not taking a page from their own book). As a consultant you would not be responsible for any make or break figures, wink wink.


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## Samlock (Feb 2, 2013)

Over here the local prison produces wooden products - log houses, furniture and such. The prison has ever competed anyone out of business. They have their own budget and must price their products accordingly. They don't pay much to inmates, but overall keeping a person behind the bars is indeed not cheap. Looking through their Tytoiminnan tuotteet - Rikosseuraamuslaitosprice list it seems the prisoner labor costs as much as free one. In fact the prison while ago closed their metal shop, because they couldn't keep up with market anymore. Thus, I think it makes a huge difference where the profit will go.

I'm just guessing here, but Andy, as a taxpayer, aren't you entitled to ask specific questions about the business plans of a public institution?


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## northmanlogging (Feb 2, 2013)

blades said:


> Well if ya want to call it slave labor, fine, just remember the cost to the taxpayers per incarcerated individual is $40k per year minimum.



From my limited understanding it costs considerably more than that, but then criminals eat better than I do, and they get cable tv, Hel I've stayed in Motels with less perks then most of em get. So if you ask me its not a matter of making money for the prisons to stay open and reduce state debt, but more a matter of how much comfort that inmates get... sure fine get three meals and a cot, but they don't have to be hot meals and they don't have to be real tasty either... its supposed to be a punishment, make it a punishment...

Now as far as slave labor, lets take a look at your job could it be done with indentured servants? say I have a crew of 40 "workers" that only get minimal housing, and two meals a day, do you think your going to stay competitive... plus my crew can work as long as I want em to, because they have no rights and don't get paid overtime. Hel they don't even get paid. Ya wanna try and compete against that labor pool?


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## 2dumb4words (Feb 2, 2013)

As much as I despise attorneys, it sounds like you need an expert. Hope this works out to your advantage. Doesn't sound good.


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

blades said:


> To the Op, only thing I see here is if you are not already up and running, then at this point it is not a situation of putting you out of that portion of your business. Best to hire out to them as a permanent consultant at a six figure salary of course ( no sense not taking a page from their own book). As a consultant you would not be responsible for any make or break figures, wink wink.



Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the property, pole peeler, 150 kw generator, and all the other stuff I've invested in. :msp_rolleyes:
Actually I think you're full of crap. I think that you have this opinion because you either have no experience, or haven't put any kind of pencil to it, but probably because you work for someone else and have accepted your lot in life. I should not have to compete against the government in "free enterprise". Period.
If I wanted to get a check from the government for doing nothing, I'd already be on welfare (oh crap, it's income support now) and food stamps. :msp_angry:

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

2dumb4words said:


> As much as I despise attorneys, it sounds like you need an expert. Hope this works out to your advantage. Doesn't sound good.



I figure that attorney's should always be the last resort (unlike most people now days). I'm a strong advocate of being a man, and talking to the offender face to face before spending a lot of money on a lawyer. 

Andy


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## ropensaddle (Feb 2, 2013)

I see value in reforming by instilling work ethic. I think there's many things they can make them do that would be fitting without competing with local business. I think growing their own food could be regular chores, then litter detail,then scrubbing latrines in rest areas and strait hoeing weeds in sidewalk on government property followed by thorough cleaning of the prison itself then 30 mins to watch tv which is only the Disney channel or news before lights out and 6 am do it again.


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## 2dumb4words (Feb 2, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I figure that attorney's should always be the last resort (unlike most people now days). I'm a strong advocate of being a man, and talking to the offender face to face before spending a lot of money on a lawyer.
> 
> Andy



One consults an attorney to gain a better understanding of legal ramifications to better assess how to approach the problem. "Being a man" sounds cavalier and all. But when dealing with government entities that don't add up to spit. Good luck. I'd rather have advice BEFORE than after. 

By the way, your last two responses make you sound like a prick.


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## Gologit (Feb 2, 2013)

2dumb4words said:


> One consults an attorney to gain a better understanding of legal ramifications to better assess how to approach the problem. "Being a man" sounds cavalier and all. But when dealing with government entities that don't add up to spit. Good luck. I'd rather have advice BEFORE than after.
> 
> By the way, your last two responses make you sound like a prick.



No, they make him sound like a man who is about to get run over by something over which he has no control.

He's been in that same area a long time. He's done his work, he's paid his taxes, he's contributed a great deal to the local economy...he's played by all the rules that he's been told to play by. 

Now they're talking about changing the rules but this time he won't even get to play. He might well be forced out of business by a bunch of well meaning but basically clueless bureaucrats who either don't know or damn well don't care if he suffers in the process.

He has his whole life, everything that he is and everything that he wants to be, wrapped up in that business

Sounds like a prick? I don't think so. Not even close. What he sounds like is angry. And I don't blame him. I don't blame him at all.


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## floyd (Feb 2, 2013)

prisoners of the state of OR have to "work". Some of it goes back to state to pay for upkeep.

I would talk to the commissioners as well but find out what the law is regarding prisoner labor. Maybe a law was passed recently you missed.


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## 2dumb4words (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm just gonna sit here quietly and try to extract my foot from my mouth. 

I shouldn't have posted at all. I still think discussing your options with an attorney is advisable.

Best wishes.


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## twochains (Feb 2, 2013)

Near me in Arkansas is the ADOC. They have several work crews, however they are limited to ONLY working on state type properties such as schools, some highway embankments, and parks. What I am trying to say is that they are NOT for hire to individuals...like say a tornado came through and wiped out a bunch houses or trees, they are not allowed to come help. So basically the State would have to buy the property with the timber on it in order to have inmates work it. 

I am surprised to hear of your ordeal...I would be incredibly PTFO! I hope you get this resolved...this is just more "Big Brother" crap trying to put their thumb down, hoping no one will ask questions. Good luck to you Sir!


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 2, 2013)

Correctional institutions should haul in a few loads of rip-rap and have the inmates make smaller rocks. All the while using sledge hammers and hand drills.

Unfortunately this probably counts as inhumane treatment or some such foolishness.


Andy I think your right, just calling em up. Lots of times comissioners don't want the pot stirred and giving them a chance to think about the guy they will pizz off may make em blink. They probably don't even have a clue they'd be hurting your business. Before going to court a phone call to the local paper might get some results... It is free. 

After all that then it might be time to consult a lawyer. Doing a little research into the laws on your own might give you some ammo for when you talk to em Monday.

Wes


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## slowp (Feb 2, 2013)

A bit of a thread drift, but my liberal much hated brain says that inmates should be educated--taught to read and get their GEDs. Maybe they could get work when they were released. Most have learning disabilities in addition to other problems. 

It was sad seeing how slowly the trail cutting crew worked. I don't see how any profit could be made, if that was the goal, by such a crew. 

It was a Lane County, OR crew.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 2, 2013)

I agree miss p. but there is plenty of time for them to learn to read now and plenty of assistance. I'm not saying put em to work from sun up to sun down, that would be slavery, but an 8-10 hour job like the rest of us, would still leave plenty of down time to earn geds and assorted other learnings... (I speek englich as a firs't lanquaj). This of course is assuming that they don't have tv or games or half a dozen other distractions, give a man enough time and the proper direction and support they could turn around, and be if not productive citizens than at least getting by without resorting to crime. 

Now of course this is all a matter of whether or not the crimes they committed where reformable, some folks do things so bad that I don't have any problem with ending them.


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

2dumb4words said:


> One consults an attorney to gain a better understanding of legal ramifications to better assess how to approach the problem. "Being a man" sounds cavalier and all. But when dealing with government entities that don't add up to spit. Good luck. I'd rather have advice BEFORE than after.
> 
> *By the way, your last two responses make you sound like a prick*.



Why thank you! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.
I'm a little dissapointed though, that you're just now figuring that out. oke:

Andy


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## cffr (Feb 2, 2013)

There is alot of work done around here by prison labor in nevada. the work crews are run by nevada division of forestry and are a 12 man crew with a ndf crew boss no guards with them. the only time they have a guard with them is when there is multiple crews on a fire. They do alot of the state contract work for thinning around here. people can hire them out last i looked it was around $700 for a 8 hour day but the time starts when they leave the prison and ends when they get back to the prison so you may only get 4 hours of work or less for that price. I know some people that use them because you dont have to pay workers comp and taxes on them and it can be real difficult anymore to find anyone to do manual labor anymore. I stick only to the federal contracts cause the state ones arent consistent they go out to id every couple of years and once you get it they call and say we have this much money go here and do this work as soon as the money runs out your out work until more money becomes available. They have done a few projects here that really hurt me and others they were great projects if they would of went the way they were supposed to but they didnt. The wood from the thinning was supposed to go to the seniors who couldnt afford it to heat their homes unfortunately some worthless theives would go up every night and take all the wood cut that day then sold it in the winter for a low price. I doubt this project will really be much competition for you because it probably wont last to long before going bankrupt they tried to do it here with biomass boilers heating prisons and some schools with chips. They stopped doing prison labor because it cost them to much and couldnt supply the amount of material need to operate the boilers in their short work days and the ones that are still using the boilers buy the chips from private companies at a lower cost to them and a reliable supply. I would keep going getting your operation set up and not worry that much about the prison plant it wont be around long or much competition. look into a federal stewardship contract with blm or usfs so you have a reliable supply of wood to cut and process like i am doing. If you havent already researched it look into exporting pellets to europe the market is huge and the demand is massive and if set up right very lucrative just make your pellets bag them and load them in containers and either truck them to a port or load on a train and ship to a port to send over seas. There is alot of information and programs out there for exporting pellets if you look into it might be a good option for you.


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 2, 2013)

I honestly don't mind turning a con into a productive citizen again but when so many of them get out and then do something (usually the same thing they did the first time) and get thrown back in again i think the point is lost. Not everyone sees the light through reformation and good deeds.

They shouldn't be abused but it shouldn't be the free ride it is.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## redprospector (Feb 2, 2013)

Gologit said:


> No, they make him sound like a man who is about to get run over by something over which he has no control.
> 
> He's been in that same area a long time. He's done his work, he's paid his taxes, he's contributed a great deal to the local economy...he's played by all the rules that he's been told to play by.
> 
> ...



Thanks, that pretty much wraps up what I'd like to say but couldn't find the words. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Feb 2, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Thanks, that pretty much wraps up what I'd like to say but couldn't find the words.
> 
> Andy



You're welcome. I was referring to you but, actually, I think I'm really talking about a whole lot of people in this business...including myself.


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## Oldtimer (Feb 3, 2013)

You have 2 choices, and 1 long shot hail mary.

1, get up and running first, sign contracts with buyers before they do, and do a better job at it than they can do.

2, dump all the stuff you have and get out...maybe sell them the stuff...

Hail Mary, force them to ditch the plans they have.

Of the three, I like #1 best.


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## Oldtimer (Feb 3, 2013)

And as for prison labor...

I favor 12 hour shifts of heavy back breaking work, all of it community service...mow grass with old fashioned push mowers, pick up trash, paint lines on the asphalt, paint public buildings, paint bridges, build playgrounds and parks, maintain hiking trails, I mean work them so hard they view prison as a true punishment. No convict likes work, it's what they despise most.

12 hour shifts, and hot bunk them: BOOM, you just doubled the prison's bed capacity.

And no TV, no nothing but 3 meals and a shower and cold water to drink- and work.


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## RandyMac (Feb 3, 2013)

To cffr. Dude, some basic writing skills are indicated, your stuff is too much work to read.


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## oregon steel (Feb 3, 2013)

Every job listed steps on somebodys toes. To get a spot on a work crew, has to be earned.


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## Dalmatian90 (Feb 3, 2013)

I seem to recall quite a few threads on this site about Prison Blues jeans and very few qualms expressed about them competing with private industry.

Hard to know where the price and costs will settle out. Labor is free, never underestimate the ability of government agencies to kill efficiency but keep on trucking.

Prior to the state take over of jails here circa 1960, my county was the only one of the eight that consistently turned a profit and had its facilities rated as well maintained and adequate. Wasn't anything special other then generations of jailers who had run a tight ship and developed a culture of doing so. The other seven...not so much.

I'd guess the rest of you likewise have seen the well-run agencies that keep on ticking year in, year out...and the greater number that struggle to figure out how to turn on the lights each day.

Did do trail and conservation work one summer for the town, and most days I had an inmate helper or two. Weren't firecrackers, but I only had one I had to tell them to not send back because he was useless as a tit on a bull. Town also used a crew at the dump to sort recyclables. But even with the cash cost being minimal (I think they cost us $8/day) and a town that squeezes pennies (our tax rate is about 40% below average for the state)...we only did that for a few years then contracted out the recycling program to a private vendor who could do it for less.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 3, 2013)

Here's how to run a prison and sorry but they need to put an end to prisoners suing.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/arizona.maricopa.county.jpg


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> You have 2 choices, and 1 long shot hail mary.
> 
> 1, get up and running first, sign contracts with buyers before they do, and do a better job at it than they can do.
> 
> ...



As of right now I like #3 the best. We'll see what I think after the unscheduled meeting with my county commisioner tomorrow morning.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

Dalmatian90 said:


> I seem to recall quite a few threads on this site about Prison Blues jeans and very few qualms expressed about them competing with private industry.
> 
> Hard to know where the price and costs will settle out. Labor is free, never underestimate the ability of government agencies to kill efficiency but keep on trucking.
> 
> ...



Well, I guess that means that I'm not a hypocrite in that area, I don't & won't own a pair of "prison blues" I've never felt it was right for the government to compete with private industry. 
Private industry (especially the little guy) has to make a profit, and do it now. Government on the other hand doesn't necessarily have to make a profit....ever, they can run on my tax dollars. How ironic, I'm paying them to put me out of business. 

Here's something for everyone who thinks that it's ok for the government to compete with private industry. Just fill in the blanks with your location, and industry/job.
________ county/state will be buying the old ________ plant/office and have it up and running in a few months using prisoners for labor. The use of prisoners will theoretically lower the overhead enough to be able to provide this product/service cheaper than other options in the area.

Now imagine how you'll feel when you realize, or your boss tells you that trying to compete with this type of competition is not practical and that the doors to the plant/office will be closed perminantly in 30 days, and that if you want to stay in your field that you'll have to move or go to jail.
That's where me and the people who work with me stand right now. We may be just another statistic in the unemployment rate soon. But the prisoners will have jobs. 
And all this time I thought that the government was supposed to be trying to help with the unemployment rate.

Andy


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## Gologit (Feb 3, 2013)

redprospector said:


> As of right now I like #3 the best. We'll see what I think after the unscheduled meeting with my county commisioner tomorrow morning.
> 
> Andy



Just remember, hitting people doesn't make them any smarter. It's fun sometimes, and sometimes you just _have_ to... but it's usually counter productive in the long run.


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Just remember, hitting people doesn't make them any smarter. It's fun sometimes, and sometimes you just _have_ to... but it's usually counter productive in the long run.



Haha, Yeah but it may be the only way I'll get to keep cuttin' trees. 
And I think it has made a few people a little smarter. One in particular thought it would be ok to emphasise his point by sticking his finger in my chest. He is now a little smarter, and knows better than to even think that. 

Andy


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## Jacob J. (Feb 3, 2013)

Dalmatian90 said:


> Hard to know where the price and costs will settle out. Labor is free, never underestimate the ability of government agencies to kill efficiency but keep on trucking.



Inmate labor is never free, as pointed out earlier in this thread. In fact, when you look at the amount of accomplishment vs. cost, it's some of the most expensive labor on the planet, even more so than most union labor.


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2013)

Well, it works the other way too. When I started out, we could come to work earlier in the year and work later if we worked on a precommercial thinning crew. We did the spots that were out of the way or not real conveniant to contract out. It was a good way to get into shape for the upcoming timber marking season. Then orders came down that all that was to be contracted out. I've heard that it doesn't really make a difference in cost. When contracts are done, a lot of time $$ is spent getting the specs together and putting a contract together. 

At one point, it was rumored that just about all work would be done by contractors. My job would have survived but many would be lost. There was suddenly a rush for folks to get qualified as CORs and inspectors, as those would be the only jobs. Then there was a mind change and I suppose all will be repeated again, just like the constant downsizing and reorganizations. 

So, govt. workers also get the shaft once in a while. I guess it is part of life.


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

slowp said:


> Well, it works the other way too. When I started out, we could come to work earlier in the year and work later if we worked on a precommercial thinning crew. We did the spots that were out of the way or not real conveniant to contract out. It was a good way to get into shape for the upcoming timber marking season. Then orders came down that all that was to be contracted out. I've heard that it doesn't really make a difference in cost. When contracts are done, a lot of time $$ is spent getting the specs together and putting a contract together.
> 
> At one point, it was rumored that just about all work would be done by contractors. My job would have survived but many would be lost. There was suddenly a rush for folks to get qualified as CORs and inspectors, as those would be the only jobs. Then there was a mind change and I suppose all will be repeated again, just like the constant downsizing and reorganizations.
> 
> So, govt. workers also get the shaft once in a while. I guess it is part of life.



Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me. 

Andy


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## Jacob J. (Feb 3, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
> I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> Andy



That's the thing about working for the government- little risk and little reward.


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> That's the thing about working for the government- little risk and little reward.



Yep, I'm looking back on some of the decisions I've made in the past, and one of those retirement plans, and benefits are lookin' pretty good right now.

Andy


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## hammerlogging (Feb 3, 2013)

I think that with a can-do attitude you can turn this tide in your favor. Make this situation to your advantage. There is a role for you and gov't, prisoner labor. You are the expert in this field, not them. They probably haven't even considered your position, or even know you are out there. What about turning them on wholly unmerch. stands? Point is, keep your mind open, try and remain positive, and turn this in your favor.... you have to! Good luck.


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.
> I think the shaft they're using on me is bigger than the one they use on government workers. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> Andy



It all hurts. I've had to move to totally new to me parts of the country to keep working. None of it is easy.


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Yep, I'm looking back on some of the decisions I've made in the past, and one of those retirement plans, and benefits are lookin' pretty good right now.
> 
> Andy



I've also had loggers question me about the retirement plans. When they heard how much I donated to my plan, and then about the health insurance-- that there was no dental, and that I paid half of my insurance, it didn't sound so good. I did have more taken out of my check than required--and it is now paying off. Part will depend on the stock market too. 

Rumors abound.


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

hammerlogging said:


> I think that with a can-do attitude you can turn this tide in your favor. Make this situation to your advantage. There is a role for you and gov't, prisoner labor. You are the expert in this field, not them. They probably haven't even considered your position, or even know you are out there. What about turning them on wholly unmerch. stands? Point is, keep your mind open, try and remain positive, and turn this in your favor.... you have to! Good luck.



After tomorrow they'll know I'm out here. I'm gonna introduce me. 
No, really though, I'm just blowing off a little steam here. I'll handle myself in an intelligent manner, and try to make the best of what appears to be a bad situation. 
I appreciate your encouragement.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

slowp said:


> I've also had loggers question me about the retirement plans. When they heard how much I donated to my plan, and then about the health insurance-- that there was no dental, and that I paid half of my insurance, it didn't sound so good. I did have more taken out of my check than required--and it is now paying off. Part will depend on the stock market too.
> 
> Rumors abound.



Hahaha, I donate 100% to my retirement plan (what's left of it). I also pay 100% of my health insurance, and my general liability insurance, and my inland marine, etc. etc. etc. I've seen times when I've had to sacrafice my retirement contribution, and my health insurance to be able to pay the help, and try to keep the other stuff up. 
I don't want to compare to see who's got it worse anymore, it may make me more negative, and I don't like being negative.
I do what I do because I love it. I am my own boss because no one will let me work for them. Wait, that wasn't right.  I am my own boss because I like the "risk & reward", because I like being paid for what I can do rather than an hourly or monthly wage, because the better I can pull my crew together and lead them, the more prosperous I become. 
There are few people in this world who have it as good as I do, and I know it. I just really don't like what's going on right now. Hopefully it's just a little speed bump.

Andy


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## slowp (Feb 3, 2013)

It's just that the constant bashing gets old, along with the fantasizing of all the benefits. I realize I had it easi*er* but it wasn't a cake walk. Nothing is.


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## redprospector (Feb 3, 2013)

slowp said:


> It's just that the constant bashing gets old, along with the fantasizing of all the benefits. I realize I had it easi*er* but it wasn't a cake walk. Nothing is.



Sorry, I did not intend to bash you. I understand that the US Forest Service is charged with keeping our forests. I also understand that it is economicly unfeasable for them to do it alone, therefore creating the need for contractors, etc. etc. etc. 
In this instance, when I referred to the government I was reffering to my county government, who was not charged with the keeping of our forests, or creating businesses to compete with private industries. 
I consider you a friend on this site (I hope that's ok), and would just keep my mouth shut before I would intentionally "bash" you.

Andy


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## 2dogs (Feb 4, 2013)

Here in Cali we have a huge prison population and inmate and ward crews are much sought after. The inmates are uneducated and very poor communicators but as a rule they work really hard and do a good, no, a great job. (The California Conservation Crews are employees, IIRC for a maximum of 3 years, but do less demanding work.) I have had only good experiences working with inmate crews but I have been trained on how to work with them. (Though the first time I worked with inmates in 1987 I had no training). 

Then company I work for lost a job to an inmate crew. It was a brush clearing and fire prevention job that we could have easily done but we could not beat the price the crew charged. The school district was very happy with the job the inmate crew did. BTW part of the reason the job was bid out was because of the protesters complaining about goats being used the prior year. They said the goats were treated unfairly and had their rights denied. The school board bought it. Hippies everywhere.

I have worked fires and other incidents where inmate crews and private crews were working and inmates win hands down. Still I understand how it feels to be under cut and be up against unfair situation. i also know you can get called in to bid a job just so the agency can see the bid the call off the bidding then use your bid to write another request for for bidding using your bid as the requirements. Good luck.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 4, 2013)

All of this is just one more reason I'm not looking for gub-a-mint contracts, I'll stick to the private side, and with a little luck maybe a contract sale with a mill or two, sub contract with a larger outfit... anything to keep me from paying the 20% on a million dollar bond...


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## ropensaddle (Feb 4, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Sorry, I did not intend to bash you. I understand that the US Forest Service is charged with keeping our forests. I also understand that it is economicly unfeasable for them to do it alone, therefore creating the need for contractors, etc. etc. etc.
> In this instance, when I referred to the government I was reffering to my county government, who was not charged with the keeping of our forests, or creating businesses to compete with private industries.
> I consider you a friend on this site (I hope that's ok), and would just keep my mouth shut before I would intentionally "bash" you.
> 
> Andy



Here they been using illegal aliens somehow made legal


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## 2dogs (Feb 4, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Here they been using illegal aliens somehow made legal



Funny how that happens........................... Not really.


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## redprospector (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, I spent 2 hours on the phone today with 2 different county comissioners. :bang: Long story short, I'm screwed and they couldn't care less.
I told them of my concernes that the government shouldn't be in private industry. They both basicly said that they agree with me, *BUT*...
All it means when they say but, is to forget everything they just said, and they'll tell you where they really stand.
Oh well, I'm done whining about this. Life is a series of starting over, looks like it's time to start over again.

Andy


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## OlympicYJ (Feb 6, 2013)

Sorry to hear Andy. Frikin beauracrats... maybe it'll happen maybe it won't. Ya never know about the goobermint.

Best wishes

Wes


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## cpr (Feb 6, 2013)

That sucks, but on the phone they can say whatever they want. A little letter to the editor of the county paper that gets in puts them on the spot of having to defend it publicly. Nothing to be lost other than a stamp and some pencil lead...


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## redprospector (Feb 6, 2013)

cpr said:


> That sucks, but on the phone they can say whatever they want. A little letter to the editor of the county paper that gets in puts them on the spot of having to defend it publicly. Nothing to be lost other than a stamp and some pencil lead...



Oh, there'll be a letter to the editor, one to the congressman that is encouraging them, the governor, and anyone else I can think of to write one to.
These guy's are already having to defend themselves publicly. They were elected because they said they wanted smaller government. Hahaha, now look at em.
I asked one of these knuckle heads; If you get this done, and then decide that the county could run a convenience store better, what would stop you from building one? He said; "Absolutly Nothing". :bang:
Oh well, maybe I can get "re-trained" to be an astronaut.

Andy


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## floyd (Feb 7, 2013)

Next stop state representative.


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## kyle1! (Feb 7, 2013)

Looks like it is time to hit the pavement and make as much noise as possible by going to the necessary gov meetings, opinions, emailing representative nonstop and maybe even a website to direct others to help with your cause. There has to be someone out there that will listen 

Brian


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## Double_Diamond (Feb 8, 2013)

I don't know how it works down where you are but it I assume that your county commissioners are elected officials. Generally gentleman farmers with way too much time on their hands. They don't do any actual work, usually just show up to things, kiss babies, shake hands and sit on committees. It is usually someone employed by the county who does the real work and the commissioners take credit for what gets done. I would be interested in who at the county will be running the show. There should probably be some type of staff report detailing out their plan, who will run it and expected costs and profits. This would be available to the public and should have been presented in an open meeting. These are assumptions on my part knowing how county government works in my area, it may be totally different where you are. If the above is true I would get my hands on the staff report and see what assumptions were made and how realistic they are. It sounds like you have done your homework and have a good business plan. You can use that to evaluate what the county intends to do and see if they have a chance in heck of making a go of it. I can't imagine they have the in-house capabilities to run the operation so would the be hiring someone to run it or would they have a consultant come in and do it? Who knows, it could turn into a good opportunity for you. Generally government is okay doing their day to day operations but it sounds like this is something totally new to them so they need help or they will fail miserably.


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## strangersfaces (Feb 14, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Well, I spent 2 hours on the phone today with 2 different county comissioners. :bang: Long story short, I'm screwed and they couldn't care less.
> I told them of my concernes that the government shouldn't be in private industry. They both basicly said that they agree with me, *BUT*...
> All it means when they say but, is to forget everything they just said, and they'll tell you where they really stand.
> Oh well, I'm done whining about this. Life is a series of starting over, looks like it's time to start over again.
> ...



Andy,

Your issue interests me and I spent a bit of time online tonight learning what I could which might possibly help. It's late, I'll post up more of what I've found (which may or may not help whatsoever), but I just came across something I thought should be made known ASAP in case you were unaware of the *Osero County Commissioners meeting*:

**** Thursday, 2/14 (TODAY, takes place at 9am in 123), "Regular Meeting", item #20* 

*Request approval of Resolution # 02-14-13/101-53 authorizing and approving submission of an NMFA Grant application to fund the Otero County Pellet Plant Project.*

More once I've had some shuteye,

Lance


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## strangersfaces (Feb 15, 2013)

So,

In researching the issue last night I began by pulling up whatever local (to Otero County) news sources were reporting on the County's proposal to buy and begin operations at the idle Pellet Mill. I found just one newspaper story covering the topic. On January 10th there was an article in the Alamogordo Daily News (and reprinted elsewhere) by staff writer, Janessa Maxilom, titled "*County Commission seeks to buy pellet mill factory in Tularosa*".

Clips from that story:

"... *County commissioner Ronny Rardin* said that the county commission has been discussing the possibility of purchasing a pellet mill that is currently owned by the Premier Pellet Company.

County Commissioner Tommie Herrell said that the price to purchase the mill from the company would be $839,000."

"... *Rardin*... said even though the company pulled out, the material for making pellets is readily available in the *Lincoln National Forest*. He said the reason the commission has considered buying the mill was because they feel it could make a profit and *improve the county's economy.* "

"... "As soon as we can get up in the mountains we are going to be cutting and thinning with the forest service," Rardin said. "We are going to be working and cutting up in the forest, I know that for sure. And we are going to be having a lot and a lot of biomass coming out of that forest."

Rardin said it was practical to use the biomass for the proposed pellet mill project.

"As our job is to protect the health, safety and welfare of Otero County, that's why I'm elected," he said. "*I see it as a necessity to own the hub of the place that could bring life to everybody else.*"

*New Mexico State University has done research on what the forest could produce.* County commissioners got a copy of the report to understand what they would be undertaking if they purchased the pellet mill."

"... For now, the project is still being considered, but the county commission has teamed up with the local national forest service to thin the forest.

*The county commission board already had a few work sessions to discuss the pellet mill project. At the Dec. 26, 2012 commission meeting the topic was discussed.*

No decisions have been made, but commissioner Herrell said he would like a decision to be made within the next 60 days."
*****​
No mention of using prison labor. How good a reporter is Janessa Maxilom? Does she dig for facts or merely re-write press releases? She might be a good source for information. The New Mexico State University report could be an interesting read. Also, who from Otero County requested and received the report...

Wanting to learn more, such as where and when the idea first surfaced, also whose idea was it and who among the commissioners, if any, stands to personally profit from the business, I began by visiting the *Otero County website*. They are redoing the site and the "New" part lacks content, but the Original site still has a good deal of info. I chose "Commission Agendas" and decided to examine Commission agendas from each meeting beginning in January of 2012. Any "official" agendas which mention anything that might be at all connected with the Pellet Mill/Forest are shown below:

*Note: When minutes of meetings concerning any subject are clicked on (to the right), one gets: HTTP Status 403-*Access to the specified resource () has been forbidden. Minutes of public meetings are password protected?

*Otero County Commissioners Meetings of Possible Relevance, 2012*

Wednesday, June 13, "Regular Meeting" item #5
Request approval to apply for and accept a USDA Rural Business Enterprise Grant (RBEG) to be used in conjunction with New Mexico Biomass Technologies. T*he RBEG program provides grants for rural projects that finance and facilitate development of small and emerging rural business. To assist with business development, RBEG's may fund a broad array of activities.*

*Wednesday, August 8, "Work Session" Items #12 & #13*
*12:* Request approval of the renewal of an agreement between Otero County and *Daniel Martinez for Consulting Services* at seventy-five ($75.00) an hour, *regarding National Forest Management issues.*

*13:http://66.208.116.79:8080/agenda/ot...d=EF9B36D3454576700BF267F1D74EB920?select=877* Request approval of a professional services agreement between Otero County and *Blair Dunn for Legal Services regarding Lincoln National Forest* & RS2477 issues. **Action Item at the Work Session**

*Thursday, August 16, "Regular Meeting" item #13*

Request approval of the renewal of an agreement between Otero County and *Daniel Martinez for Consulting Services* at seventy-five ($75.00) an hour, *regarding National Forest Management issues.*


*Thursday, October 11, "Regular Meeting" item #3 & #18*

*#3:* Request approval for Otero County to adopt the Smoked Bear Program. Smoked Bear's mission is to protect millions of animals from burning and to stop wildfires from polluting our nation by grazing and logging to reduce wildfire fuel. *The goal of the Smoked Bear Initiative is to stop the wildfires that are burning millions of animals.*

*#18:* *Request approval of a Cost Share Agreement between Otero County and the USDA, Forest Service for the purpose of cooperation between the parties to reduce hazardous fuels in the Sacramento Ranger District.
*
*Thursday, October 8, "Regular Meeting" #2*

Request approval for Otero County to adopt the Smoked Bear Program. Smoked Bear's mission is to protect millions of animals from burning and to stop wildfires from polluting our nation by grazing and logging to reduce wildfire fuel. The goal of the Smoked Bear Initiative is to stop the wildfires that are burning millions of animals.

*Wednesday, December 26, "Commission Special Meeting"*

*ONE ISSUE: ***Special Meeting to discuss the Pellet Mill Project*


*Otero County Commissioners Meetings of Possible Relevance, 2013*


**** Thursday, 2/14 (TODAY, takes place at 9am in 123), "Regular Meeting", item #20*

*Request approval of Resolution # 02-14-13/101-53 authorizing and approving submission of an NMFA Grant application to fund the Otero County Pellet Plant Project.*
*****​
Daniel Martinez and Blair Dunn must know lots. Should they be tight lipped, their Secretaries, Office help, Custodians and/or spouses may be less so.

The NMFA Grant Application could be interesting reading.

NMFA's next scheduled Board Meeting is: 

*NMFA Board Meeting*
Date: *February 22, 2013*
Location: Mabry Hall, Jerry Apodaca Education Building
300 Don Gaspar
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Time: 9 am – 1 pm

Additional information, contact [email protected].

*NMFA Mission Statement*
_*We are dedicated to improving the lives of New Mexicans, by planning and financing infrastructure, strengthening the economy* through public/private partnerships and setting the standard for superior, diverse, innovative and solution-driven financing.
_
*Values Statement*
_To the NMFA, values represent the core priorities in the organization's culture_


NMFA policy on Governmental entities competing with private enterprise? Employment of Prison Labor at the expense of private Citizens?

Thought I'd put up what little I've learned in the off chance that something might help.

Best wishes with the fight,

Lance


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## northmanlogging (Feb 15, 2013)

umm shouldn't meeting minutes be part of public record? how come I smell more the smoked bear, more like festering chipmunk...

good luck... its hard enough to fight a city gub-a-mint let alone county


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## slowp (Feb 15, 2013)

Sounds like a FOIA request is in order for the Forest Service side too. 

It also sounds like Redprospector could get the same grant to help out with his business. There are people who specialize in writing grant requests, and there is usually one with the local Forest Service. Wildlife and fish projects done by the FS are often funded through grants so they need to know how to write proposals.

Another angle, would be to look into the requirements. I do know that for non-timber sale contracts, the FS has to see and keep records on payroll amounts and who is getting paid. 

Strangersfaces, good work! 

What TV stations cover that area? Do they like to do stories on shady deals? Radio? Maybe even NPR?


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## hammerlogging (Feb 15, 2013)

click heels together three times and say "sequester" and it will all go away.


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## slowp (Feb 15, 2013)

Actually, walk into FS office and say, "Civil Rights" and watch the panic!:msp_biggrin:


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## redprospector (Feb 15, 2013)

strangersfaces said:


> So,
> 
> In researching the issue last night I began by pulling up whatever local (to Otero County) news sources were reporting on the County's proposal to buy and begin operations at the idle Pellet Mill. I found just one newspaper story covering the topic. On January 10th there was an article in the Alamogordo Daily News (and reprinted elsewhere) by staff writer, Janessa Maxilom, titled "*County Commission seeks to buy pellet mill factory in Tularosa*".
> 
> ...




Thank's Lance,
Good job!! Your research followed a very similar path to mine. You did find a couple of things I hadn't, thank you again. I have written to Congressman Pearce, who was neck deep in trying to revive some fraction of the timber industry here. I think this is an unintended consequence of his enthusiasm.
I don't know the reporter Janessa Maxilom, but around here we call the Sunday edition of the Alamogordo Daily News the "Weekly Wiper" if that gives you an idea of what I think of them. I got the information on the inmate labor straight from the horses mouth (or which ever end it was). Rarden, and Herrell told me over the phone that was their plan. 
I will be composing a letter to the NMFA explaining my position, asking them not to fund this project in any way. I think Rardin's own word's "I see it as a necessity to own the hub of the place that could bring life to everybody else." will work against them in the end (along with a lot of other things that goofball has said).
If I'm not able to rally the troops and stop them, I believe that the county is about to learn a very expensive lesson at our expense. Not to mention the fact that I am having to re-write my business plan, and make some life altering decisions.
It's funny to me how these government entities have their meetings at 9:00 AM on Tuesday mornings when most of the people who might be interested in anything on their agenda are at work trying to make a living.

Andy


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## ropensaddle (Feb 15, 2013)

slowp said:


> Sounds like a FOIA request is in order for the Forest Service side too.
> 
> It also sounds like Redprospector could get the same grant to help out with his business. There are people who specialize in writing grant requests, and there is usually one with the local Forest Service. Wildlife and fish projects done by the FS are often funded through grants so they need to know how to write proposals.
> 
> ...




Everything I have seen for grants is for non profit business. Why is it our national forests get cut in the first place and where is every dime made ? It is not their forest it's the public's. Law here states no chainsaws or timber cutting period that should mean them too hahaha


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## slowp (Feb 16, 2013)

Copied from Strangerface's post.

_Request approval to apply for and accept a USDA Rural Business Enterprise Grant (RBEG) to be used in conjunction with New Mexico Biomass Technologies. The RBEG program provides grants for rural projects that finance and facilitate development of small and emerging rural business. To assist with business development, RBEG's may fund a broad array of activities. _


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## redprospector (Feb 16, 2013)

slowp said:


> Sounds like a FOIA request is in order for the Forest Service side too.
> 
> It also sounds like Redprospector could get the same grant to help out with his business. There are people who specialize in writing grant requests, and there is usually one with the local Forest Service. Wildlife and fish projects done by the FS are often funded through grants so they need to know how to write proposals.
> 
> ...



I'm planning on trying for a grant again, but I think I need to stop the county first or there won't be any need to. The last time I put in for a grant for a pellet plant the Mescalero Tribe decided that they would like to have that money, which in a round about way is where the now defunked pellet plant came from. When it became evident that they weren't going to get off the ground I started working on it on my own, holding my cards close to my vest because the last time I let anyone know what I had planned I was beaten to the draw. So this isn't the first time I've been through this.
One of the station's up in Albuquerque has a "bulldog" that reports on scandalous acts across the state (New Mexico has always been corrupt, so he stays pretty buisy). He busted a murderous deputy sheriff here a few years ago. I'll see what they do with gentle nudging, then if necissary I'll sic the tv guy on em.

Andy


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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Everything I have seen for grants is for non profit business. Why is it our national forests get cut in the first place and where is every dime made ? It is not their forest it's the public's. Law here states no chainsaws or timber cutting period that should mean them too hahaha



I'm not real clear on the specifics but the national forest system was created to manage timber cutting, so things like what happened in the lake states, back before WWI wouldn't happen to what was left of our forests, mostly what was untouched our here in the west. The original plan was something more along the lines of more conservation, less flat out raping of the forests. Its kinda worked. By all accounts its broken now, once you start a plan in forestry you have to keep moving on it, you can modify but you can't just take a hands off approach, unless you take really careful steps at the beginning. The money was meant for the federal gub-a-mint to have an income of sorts without using income tax, while making the Forest Service a self sustaining part of it. For many reasons mostly political it don't work that way anymore...

The national park system and wilderness areas on the other hand are almost totally hands off, and have been for quite some time. You can look but you can't touch kinda deal.

There is a wonderful book, out on the history of american forests, from columbus to the Spotted turkey. I'll try and find the name fer ya...


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## strangersfaces (Feb 16, 2013)

redprospector said:


> ......*I got the information on the inmate labor straight from the horses mouth (or which ever end it was)*. *Rarden*, and Herrell told me over the phone that was their plan.



Rarden, R A R D E N..., "whichever end..." REAR ND... This end?



redprospector said:


> ......
> I will be composing a letter to the NMFA explaining my position, asking them not to fund this project in any way. *I think Rardin's own word's "I see it as a necessity to own the hub of the place that could bring life to everybody else." will work against them in the end (along with a lot of other things that goofball has said).*



I too thought that was a telling statement...



redprospector said:


> ...
> It's funny to me how these government entities have their *meetings at 9:00 AM* on Tuesday mornings *when most of the people who might be interested in anything on their agenda are at work* trying to make a living.



Or, at the very least, make the complete minutes of the meetings available online so they may be easily accessed by working folks. What's with the "Forbidden access" crap?



redprospector said:


> ...
> *I was on the phone today with one of our state foresters, and he gave me some news that I found disturbing.*
> ......; *Our county commissioners have evidently decided that they are going into the forest thinning business.* They are going to be *using county inmates for labor*, *and... * *have decided to buy the property & equipment from a defunked shavings mill and convert it into a pellet mill. They will (according to the forester) be using inmates for labor there too.*
> 
> ...





redprospector said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to figure out *what to do with the property, pole peeler, 150 kw generator, and all the other stuff I've invested in*.......





redprospector said:


> Yeah, just imagine if you had $3 or 400,000.00 invested in equipment to be able to do your job and then they started doing that to you.



Where you recognized the local need for a Pellet Plant long ago and have since that time been actively planning and investing in the property and equipment to see the plan to fruition (in other words, you didn't just recently and conveniently, since the County plan was announced, pull this plan out of your REAR ND), can SHOW the products of your efforts, AND that you have the knowledge gained through years in the Forest industry which is necessary in order to set up and run the business with great potential to produce real jobs in the community, I'd surmise that you are FAR more qualified than politicians in County Government to perform the service to the community. Not to mention, more likely to turn a profit. These elements should work in your favor with any responsible thinkers in higher and funding agencies, such as NMFA and RBEG.

Perhaps.... The best solution for all would be for the County to proceed with purchase of the Pellet Plant if they can get a good deal for the property. (By the way, are there any Commissioners invested with the existing owners who stand to gain from the sale?) Then, in the event capacity should exceed the capabilites of your main base of operations, you can then share a percentage of profits from that Pellet Plant location with the County, and THEY can sit back and take credit for the budget bonus... Everybody wins! lol

EDIT: I took so long with this post that I hadn't seen your update:



redprospector said:


> I'm planning on trying for a grant again, but I think *I need to stop the county first or there won't be any need* to. The last time I put in for a grant for a pellet plant *the Mescalero Tribe decided that they would like to have that money*, which in a round about way is where the now defunked pellet plant came from. *When it became evident that they weren't going to get off the ground I started working on it on my own*........
> Andy



If the property you had planned to utilize was the VERY SAME Pellet Plant the County is after, then please disregard the paragraph above. I had imagined you had, or had in mind, another, unrelated property... Perhaps mistakenly.



redprospector said:


> I'm planning on trying for a grant again, but I think I need to stop the county first or there won't be any need to. The last time I put in for a grant for a pellet plant the Mescalero Tribe decided that they would like to have that money, which in a round about way is where the now defunked pellet plant came from. When it became evident that they weren't going to get off the ground *I started working on it on my own, holding my cards close to my vest because the last time I let anyone know what I had planned I was beaten to the draw.* So this isn't the first time I've been through this......
> Andy



I had a question about that in mind... This "County buying Pellet Mill" idea came from somewhere.... I wondered if somebody in the know about your direction may have let the concept slip out... It's a small world.

It would be interesting to learn just when the County signed the contract to thin? I looked for that when examining the meeting agendas and didn't find the answer. Perhaps an oversight on my part? Or was that also kept hush? The County "Plan" had to have been in the works before that time....


Andy, I'm working in my shop at home for a spell and so have ready online access and periods during day and night which I can spend as I see fit. Should you think of any more investigative grunt work I might be able to do from here, PM with an assignment which will self-destruct in 30 seconds should I be unable to perform the duty at that time...

Best wishes in the struggle,

Lance


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## ropensaddle (Feb 16, 2013)

slowp said:


> Copied from Strangerface's post.
> 
> _Request approval to apply for and accept a USDA Rural Business Enterprise Grant (RBEG) to be used in conjunction with New Mexico Biomass Technologies. The RBEG program provides grants for rural projects that finance and facilitate development of small and emerging rural business. To assist with business development, RBEG's may fund a broad array of activities. _



Never once have I seen normal folk receive a grant it go's to foreigners with dots on their forehead or some other minority. I looked into disadvantaged business grants if I had boobs or was a forign person maybe.


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## slowp (Feb 16, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Never once have I seen normal folk receive a grant it go's to foreigners with dots on their forehead or some other minority. I looked into disadvantaged business grants if I had boobs or was a forign person maybe.


 Define "normal folk" please.

That's total BS and nothing but a blame game. Did you actually apply? Were you able to explain your grant in writing so your needs/project could be easily interpreted? It's much easier to not try and blame women and them furriners, isn't it?:msp_mad:

In a similar type program, it was found that there was a need to show prospective folks (local loggers) HOW to write their proposals. 

One guy, prior to the class, basically wrote a sentence that said, "We're gonna cut the trees and skid them out." He might have understood that, but the committee awarding projects thought it needed a little more elaboration, like what equipment was he going to use, etc. He ended up getting some projects after redoing his proposals. 

The only folks with "boobs" who were applying were fat men, and I can't think of any "foreigners" who did.


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## ropensaddle (Feb 16, 2013)

slowp said:


> Define "normal folk" please.
> 
> That's total BS and nothing but a blame game. Did you actually apply? Were you able to explain your grant in writing so your needs/project could be easily interpreted? It's much easier to not try and blame women and them furriners, isn't it?:msp_mad:
> 
> ...



Well fortunately my wife put me on a diet or I might have them. Really what I seen is only non profits or minority owned grants on the website so that discludes me. Here every motel is owned by foreigners it seems. Anyway obtaining a grant to me seemed like a lot of red tape bullspit just to get turned down so no I did not apply. However I have thought of having the wife apply which might work 


PS: normal meaning not already rich,or a minority, ie banker bailouts etc there ain't much help for a red neck country boy.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 16, 2013)

The vast majority of welfare recipients, that I know or have met arewhite most of the "immigrants" I've met that own hotels, gas stations, mini marts, whatever... are very hard working folk, many of them own and operate multiple locations... meanwhile the rest of america sits around complaining how there isn't any jobs while lying to unenjoyment for 2+ years so they don't actually have to go out and get a job. So why don't you get of yer high horse. Besides this thread started out as a deal about Prison labornot immigrant labor


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## ropensaddle (Feb 16, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> The vast majority of welfare recipients, that I know or have met arewhite most of the "immigrants" I've met that own hotels, gas stations, mini marts, whatever... are very hard working folk, many of them own and operate multiple locations... meanwhile the rest of america sits around complaining how there isn't any jobs while lying to unenjoyment for 2+ years so they don't actually have to go out and get a job. So why don't you get of yer high horse. Besides this thread started out as a deal about Prison labornot immigrant labor



I ain't on no high horse just seen the grant thing and spoke my opinion from what I have seen on the website. I started my business with my own money and have seen illegals in the national forest doing something my company could do, granted not cheaper but at least my dollars would remain in the USA. I feel for red hope it works out for him.

BTW yes they do work hard in the motel and mini mart business but just wonder if the ones your calling unemployed were given grant funds like they got if maybe they too would have made a hard go of it!


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## Gologit (Feb 16, 2013)

*Keeping it on topic...*

This thread is close to turning political. Please don't let that happen.

This thread is about Redprospector and the problems he's dealing with. I'm sure the majority of us want to see a productive resolution to his situation.

If you have any workable suggestions for the OP let's hear them.

If you can't be of any direct help kindly butt out and take your bickering elsewhere.


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## Jacob J. (Feb 16, 2013)

Gologit said:


> If you can't be of any direct help kindly butt out and take your bickering elsewhere.



What if our butts are so big, we can't get them out of the way?

I doubt Andy needs my help, but I have a lot of experience writing grants, being a government slob and all. I've procured funds for a non-profit doing wetland restoration (while I was a log cutter at the time) and I've procured fire preparedness grants for rural property owners to get assistance with fuels reduction work. I'd be happy to pitch in.


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## Gologit (Feb 16, 2013)

Jacob J. said:


> What if our butts are so big, we can't get them out of the way?
> 
> I doubt Andy needs my help, but I have a lot of experience writing grants, being a government slob and all. I've procured funds for a non-profit doing wetland restoration (while I was a log cutter at the time) and I've procured fire preparedness grants for rural property owners to get assistance with fuels reduction work. I'd be happy to pitch in.



Good on ya. That's the kind of help he needs.

And on that "big butt" thing...try getting out of the office more.


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## Naked Arborist (Feb 16, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the property, pole peeler, 150 kw generator, and all the other stuff I've invested in. :msp_rolleyes:
> Actually I think you're full of crap. I think that you have this opinion because you either have no experience, or haven't put any kind of pencil to it, but probably because you work for someone else and have accepted your lot in life. I should not have to compete against the government in "free enterprise". Period.
> If I wanted to get a check from the government for doing nothing, I'd already be on welfare (oh crap, it's income support now) and food stamps. :msp_angry:
> 
> Andy



The consultant thing would be a whole lot easier and most likely a lot more profitable. Remember you are the resident expert. First, go see how that sells the politicians.


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## Naked Arborist (Feb 16, 2013)

cffr said:


> There is alot of work done around here by prison labor in nevada. the work crews are run by nevada division of forestry and are a 12 man crew with a ndf crew boss no guards with them. the only time they have a guard with them is when there is multiple crews on a fire. They do alot of the state contract work for thinning around here. people can hire them out last i looked it was around $700 for a 8 hour day but the time starts when they leave the prison and ends when they get back to the prison so you may only get 4 hours of work or less for that price. I know some people that use them because you dont have to pay workers comp and taxes on them and it can be real difficult anymore to find anyone to do manual labor anymore. I stick only to the federal contracts cause the state ones arent consistent they go out to id every couple of years and once you get it they call and say we have this much money go here and do this work as soon as the money runs out your out work until more money becomes available. They have done a few projects here that really hurt me and others they were great projects if they would of went the way they were supposed to but they didnt. The wood from the thinning was supposed to go to the seniors who couldnt afford it to heat their homes unfortunately some worthless theives would go up every night and take all the wood cut that day then sold it in the winter for a low price. I doubt this project will really be much competition for you because it probably wont last to long before going bankrupt they tried to do it here with biomass boilers heating prisons and some schools with chips. They stopped doing prison labor because it cost them to much and couldnt supply the amount of material need to operate the boilers in their short work days and the ones that are still using the boilers buy the chips from private companies at a lower cost to them and a reliable supply. I would keep going getting your operation set up and not worry that much about the prison plant it wont be around long or much competition. look into a federal stewardship contract with blm or usfs so you have a reliable supply of wood to cut and process like i am doing. If you havent already researched it look into exporting pellets to europe the market is huge and the demand is massive and if set up right very lucrative just make your pellets bag them and load them in containers and either truck them to a port or load on a train and ship to a port to send over seas. There is alot of information and programs out there for exporting pellets if you look into it might be a good option for you.



That's a good consulting job. Creating your own market as American pellet exports, good name, and consulting to other like businesses. Plus you'll still get to run your own piece of the pie  I said pie...


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## slowp (Feb 17, 2013)

Sorry for the derail, but....butt....

Just curious, are there still pellets made at Precision Pine in AZ? That outfit is famous for a big lawsuit against the Forest Service about the shutdown caused by the Mexican Spotted Owl.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2013)

Uh... sorry boss, forgot my manners...


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Uh... sorry boss, forgot my manners...



No problem, you're okay. I just wanted to nip that politics crap in the bud before it turned into another typical shouting match. Shouting gives me a headache.

I like JJ's idea about grants and such. Maybe he and Andy could put their heads together and come up with something good.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 17, 2013)

yeah but they gotta beat the gub-a-mint to the draw though, or beat them in court. With enough determination and the public on their side who knows... Getting a grant on the project would put the prospector on his claim much faster though. Allow him to buy the property and start putting in a solid foundation, before the county has a chance to organize, and come up with anything resembling a plan. Hopefully the county is still in the planning stage and he can catch them with their shorts down.


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2013)

strangersfaces said:


> If the property you had planned to utilize was the VERY SAME Pellet Plant the County is after, then please disregard the paragraph above. I had imagined you had, or had in mind, another, unrelated property... Perhaps mistakenly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your imagination is working just fine. I have no intention of trying to purchase the "defunked" plant. The property I am in negotiations for (and have a nice chunk of earnest money on the table) is about 5 or 6 miles from that plant.
I will go to the FS to see if I can find out about their contract, but I've got other fish to fry first.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2013)

Gologit said:


> This thread is close to turning political. Please don't let that happen.
> 
> This thread is about Redprospector and the problems he's dealing with. I'm sure the majority of us want to see a productive resolution to his situation.
> 
> ...



I sure hope this doesn't have to got to the political forum, I can't afford to go there anymore. The last time I spent much time there I got so screwed up that I had to spend a week in Oahu to recover. Of corse it wasn't all fun & games durring my recovery. :msp_rolleyes:







Andy


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## Gologit (Feb 17, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I sure hope this doesn't have to got to the political forum, I can't afford to go there anymore. The last time I spent much time there I got so screwed up that I had to spend a week in Oahu to recover. Of corse it wasn't all fun & games durring my recovery. :msp_rolleyes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you mean. We'll keep it here if at all possible. We may not be a lot of help but at least we're all on the same side.


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## DavdH (Feb 17, 2013)

Problem was ya went to Oahu not Kona.


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2013)

Naked Arborist said:


> The consultant thing would be a whole lot easier and most likely a lot more profitable. Remember you are the resident expert. First, go see how that sells the politicians.



Well, I've never been one to take the easy route, or for that matter the more profitable one either.
This is personal now. I may be the "resident expert", but that just means that I'll be the one writing to the papers making these people look like the asses they are when they screw up...and they will screw up if I can't stop them. 
I'm just not going to surrender, and go to work for them. I'd rather find something else to do. 
But thanks for the advice anyway.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2013)

slowp said:


> Sorry for the derail, but....butt....
> 
> Just curious, are there still pellets made at Precision Pine in AZ? That outfit is famous for a big lawsuit against the Forest Service about the shutdown caused by the Mexican Spotted Owl.



Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're still in business.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 17, 2013)

DavdH said:


> Problem was ya went to Oahu not Kona.



Yeah, if I ever have to go back for recovery again I'll probably go to a different island. My youngest son got married on Wakkiki Beach while I was in recovery, so I didn't have much choice. 

Andy


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## KiwiBro (Feb 17, 2013)

Can't add much but just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your fight Andy.

I hope everything works out OK, after the time and effort and cost you've already incurred.


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## pdqdl (Feb 17, 2013)

redprospector said:


> Well, I spent 2 hours on the phone today with 2 different county comissioners. :bang: Long story short, I'm screwed and they couldn't care less.
> I told them of my concernes that the government shouldn't be in private industry. They both basicly said that they agree with me, *BUT*...
> All it means when they say but, is to forget everything they just said, and they'll tell you where they really stand.
> Oh well, I'm done whining about this. Life is a series of starting over, looks like it's time to start over again.
> ...



I haven't read all this thread, but I think I have captured the general flavor of the whole mess.

It seems like you are in a tough spot, and fighting city hall doesn't look too promising, either. You may wish to suggest a joint venture, where you put up certain assets and assume some liabilities that the county may not have considered. With just the right amount of elbowing, coercion, political intrigue, coupled with a few clever suggestions, you might get those inmates working for you at your pellet mill. Try to make it look like they will be better off using your talent and investment than they would be running over you.

Once you figure out who really stands to make money on the inmate labor, you will know who to talk to.


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## redprospector (Mar 9, 2013)

Just a little update. I haven't won (yet), but I sure haven't lost.
It seems that I may not be as easily run over as some politicians had previously thought. 
Susan Flores is a stand up person. I just wish someone with her integrity represented my district.

Pellet plan is stuck in neutral - Las Cruces Sun-News

Andy


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