# What is wrong with todays "logging, and sawmill methods?"



## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 4, 2010)

OK ya'll Im from the Ozarks.. Way down in the mountains of Missouri were everyone is still "Old school" You have the old Hill Jacks that Still log/sawmill like "Papa Bill" did. I was talking to the owner of just about the biggest sawmill in a 30 mile radius while we were on his log yard we were talking about the local markets, and the economy he told me about all the grade logs he cut into railroad ties, RAILROAD TIES!!! I seen a bundle of some of his pallet material that he delivers to another company, just on the top row I saw 2 boards that would not make grade lumber, lumber that could have been kiln dried, planned down, and sold for almost DOUBLE of what he is selling it for as pallet material. 
Now im no Genius, and im just getting started in this Industry with my old man.. But why couldn't you take that material and make edge glued panels? Or maybe even parts for a cabinet business, like Drawer fronts etc, etc. Why cant you take the $400.00 A thousand lumber and turn it into almost $1800.00 a thousand lumber with just drying, ripping, and gluing the lumber? 

I say this about the same thing in Logging around here in the woods its "Slam Bam Thank you Mam." There was a Clearcut job not 10 miles from me that was devastated! Almost 1200 acres cut.. just about as far as the eye can see there is ultimate destruction... and the ugliest tree's you'v layed your eyes upon! Why not manage the woods? Has anyone ever heard of "Worst first?" Taking the worst trees first, and leaving the best trees for the future? How much more profitable do you think the woods industry would be if people would take alittle more time? I have been paying alot of attention to Mtnguns posts.. I like his idea of using all the dead material that otherwise would just lay and rot.. I applaud you!! 

So i ask you again, What is wrong with people?


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## forestryworks (Oct 4, 2010)

What were the species that were clearcut?


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 4, 2010)

Why not go ask the industry in YOUR area? That's not the way it's done here, so you need to ask the folks that are doing it where YOU live.

I don't mind seeing "some" dead stuff in my woods, that's what rots down to feed the tree's that are still growing there for my future. It also makes for better game habitat, and i enjoy viewing the wild animals plus i like to hunt.

Rob


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## mtngun (Oct 4, 2010)

Short answer: the economy is in the toilet, and people are doing whatever to survive.

On public land and on corporate land, there is probably better forestry management than there ever has been before, but you still have individual landowners and small logging companies who are only concerned about the short term. Realistically, they will not live long enough to see the benefits of good forest management. 

This is a bad time to sell timber, so if a landowner is clearcutting 1200 acres, chances are he needed the money desperately. The sad thing is that he may not have made much money off the clearcut.

As for cabinets, cabinet shops are in a world of hurt. High grade lumber may be worth a lot on paper, but if no one is buying it ....... ?

The issues are different in my part of the world, where it is mostly public land. In the 80's there was a lot of ugly clearcutting because of national politics, even though the log market was weak then, just as it is now. You heard all kinds of excuses -- to provide jobs, yet many mills were closing due to low demand, not due to a lack of logs. Because of bug-killed trees, yet for the most part, there is no realistic plan to deal with the bug problem (except the state of Idaho does have a good reputation for managing bugs on state land). Because of the fire hazard, but again, there is no realistic plan to deal with wildfires.

Even though timber prices are weak, Idaho recently threatened to increase timber sales, or even sell state lands all together, just because the state was having a budget crunch, and the powers that be don't believe in the concept of public lands, anyway. 

It sounds like you are upset about the big ugly clearcut. I agree that big clearcuts give logging a black eye. I'm not anti logging, but I'm anti big clearcut.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 4, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> What were the species that were clearcut?



White oak, Red oak, Black oak, Hickory, Cherry.. Pretty much anything that would make a dollar! 





Sawyer Rob said:


> Why not go ask the industry in YOUR area? That's not the way it's done here, so you need to ask the folks that are doing it where YOU live.
> 
> I don't mind seeing "some" dead stuff in my woods, that's what rots down to feed the tree's that are still growing there for my future. It also makes for better game habitat, and i enjoy viewing the wild animals plus i like to hunt.
> 
> Rob



Where are you from Sawyer Rob? Although you are right about the dead stuff in your woods... But people around here are to mule headed... Its the way papa bill did it.. and its all they know. Sorry for all my "Venting" lol

People in Sweden really do have it all figured out! They have all the low-impact logging equitment, and small log processing.


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## forestryworks (Oct 4, 2010)

clearcuts are needed or else your tolerant species will take over in the long run and your intolerants could decline. intolerant species make more money over the long term and bring a quicker return on investment. man can't rely on mother nature to be an efficient logger.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 4, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Short answer: the economy is in the toilet, and people are doing whatever to survive.
> 
> On public land and on corporate land, there is probably better forestry management than there ever has been before, but you still have individual landowners and small logging companies who are only concerned about the short term. Realistically, they will not live long enough to see the benefits of good forest management.
> 
> ...



I am alittle upset.. Not just the fact of the clearcutting.. But of also alot of material that is put to waste


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## gemniii (Oct 4, 2010)

Most forests now are barely worth selective, carefully managed logging. Just watch the lumber shows on TV. Unless you are getting money out of ancillary aspects, such a hunting, tourism, etc. the basic cost of equipment to move lots of lumber is high and hiring people is expensive.

Look at what mtngun gleaned from one of his last post:






That's a whole days labor for raw materials, so if you were paying a wage and with overhead etc. it probably cost at least $400. That would buy about 100 pieces of 2x6x8' at Lowes. 
And he still has to dry and edge his lumber.

On several sawmill forums everyone is still lamenting the lumber market is in the can.


Until someone decides it's better for everything to manage a forest the forest will get cut when someone needs the money and the cheapest way possible.

That's one of those things that takes government regulations and enforcement to get done, and then everyone will complain about "losing their freedom".


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## WSJchester (Oct 4, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> White oak, Red oak, Black oak, Hickory, Cherry.. Pretty much anything that would make a dollar! QUOTE]
> 
> A 1200 acre clearcut is immense. What comes next? My bet: Industrial forest. 1200 acres of 'improved' loblolly on short rotation, planted in rows and thinned by migrant workers with brushcutters, and ultimately harvested with a machine. Good buck for the hardwood, quick turnaround on the pulp. Mead? International? Plum Creek/GP?
> 
> ...


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## jimdad07 (Oct 4, 2010)

I like what mtngun and Brad are doing out in the northwest. That is a great practice that works for them where they live and could work in many places if you are cutting for your own use. Unfortunately, many land owners do not see the impact of what they are doing until it is done and the companies that are doing the cutting don't have to look at it when they pull out. On the other hand, if the woodlot that has been clearcut is left alone, it will quickly grow back to brush and make some great habitat for game and hunting.


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## brisawyer (Oct 5, 2010)

Its probably easyer for the sawyer to reliably it all as pallet lumber than put all that work in the high grade and then have to deal with a broker and a chance on it not selling ect. It is pretty much standard to saw a tie out of the center of a hardwood log. The grade drops fast near the center and a tie is the fastest most profitable way to get rid of that low grade wood.


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## discounthunter (Oct 5, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> White oak, Red oak, Black oak, Hickory, Cherry.. Pretty much anything that would make a dollar!



maybe by name only. alot of specialy lumber dealers use big logs,cutting small stuff(id say under 18-20") costs money with less footage. while there is hobby size wood outlets that make good money,big lumber companies cant utilized there machinerey to cut small stuff efficiantly.even veneer companyies use big siameter wood as to get more consecutive footage rather than pieceing half a dozen small ones together.

i agree it seems like waste but in the big picture money wise the companies are maximizing there resources.


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## Ollbuster (Oct 7, 2010)

Contact your local extension service. Lots of free help from them on managing a forest lot for profit here in MO.


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## MO-Iron (Oct 7, 2010)

I live in southwest MO myself and just wanted to throw in something to think about. The hard headed old men you are talking about are still in business and feeding their families, when many of the others have gone broke and are out of business. Just something for thought.

MO-Iron


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 7, 2010)

MO-Iron said:


> I live in southwest MO myself and just wanted to throw in something to think about. The hard headed old men you are talking about are still in business and feeding their families, when many of the others have gone broke and are out of business. Just something for thought.
> 
> MO-Iron



Where at in SE MO? That is a thing to think about... My grandfather in law Owned a Scragg mill He sold out about 10 years ago


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## Brmorgan (Oct 7, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> Now im no Genius, and im just getting started in this Industry with my old man.. But why couldn't you take that material and make edge glued panels? Or maybe even parts for a cabinet business, like Drawer fronts etc, etc. Why cant you take the $400.00 A thousand lumber and turn it into almost $1800.00 a thousand lumber with just drying, ripping, and gluing the lumber?



Well, it all comes down to time and money, really. Think about it - to reman that stuff, you're going to either have to air-dry it, which is very time consuming (who wants to have their milled inventory sit in the yard unsaleable for many months to a year or more if they don't have to?) and doesn't result in uniform drying of all the pieces involved, OR kiln-dry it, which adds a lot of overhead expense to generate the heat, and you have to have a guy there who knows what he's doing with a kiln to run the proper cycles and avoid problems like casehardening and whatnot. It's not a big deal at a softwood stud mill like I work at, but when you're dealing with high-grade hardwood stock, running a kiln improperly is much worse than not kilning at all. It's disappointing to cut into a nice piece of wood only to discover that it was kilned wrong and has varying moisture and tension levels throughout.

Moving on past that, you would have to pay guys (or take the time yourself) to do the actual reman work of ripping down and reassembling the pieces into a finished product. You also have the costs of running the machines to do that work, and any sundries involved such as glue, screws, biscuits, dowels, nails, etc. Costs add up a lot faster than one might imagine. So maybe you _could_ take that $400/fbm stock, put another $400 into it to remanufacture it, and sell it for $1800/fbm... But you could probably have milled another few thousand board feet of the $400/fbm grade with less overhead costs in the same amount of time.

I used to work at a fingerjoint stud mill, and for a time we ran JAS grade (Japanese export) because it brought in over twice the price (at the time) of the domestically-sold FJ Studs that made up the bulk of our production. They quit doing it after a while though, because it was so tedious and labor intensive - we ended up having to handle the trimblocks at the input end three or four times, because we had to sort out the high-grade, defect-free pieces from all the average Stud-grade pieces up at the ripsaws and store them in big bins or stacked on pallets until we collected enough to do a full JAS production run. Sometimes it could take weeks to get enough, and in the meantime those blocks just sit there and take up space that could otherwise be used (and we never had enough space there). Once we finally got 'round to jointing them into boards, we had to run the mill at maybe a third to half the speed of a regular run because the Japanese are so bloody picky about their grades, and it took a while to set the mill up for it because it was all nonstandard Metric sizes to boot. I heard one of the owners say that once it was all said and done and the time involved is factored in, the margin on JAS was maybe 5-10% above domestic at best. And if you can put out twice the amount of lower-grade wood in the same shift, it doesn't take long to realize where the money is. 

This downturn in the market is having a slight positive impact on the industry in that there are some really ingenious ideas coming to fruition now, that would have just been kept in the dark in the boom times. Companies will try anything to make a buck just to stay afloat these days. For instance, where I work, we've been milling 4X4 posts to sell to a pressure-treating plant, and we've also been making some 4X6 and 6X6 timbers for use in the oil pipeline and exploration industry over in Alberta. It's rather interesting and doesn't pay really fantastically, but at least it lets us avoid the duty nonsense when we ship across the border, so we save some cash right there. We've also been milling a lot of Metric stuff for China for concrete forms, both rough and planed, and a couple months ago we'd have been shut down again if not for those contracts. 

Just a couple days ago, I asked my boss why we don't try to fire up the old board edger down at the trimdecks in the sawmill, so we can re-edge 2X6s right there rather than having to separate them and do a re-edge-to-2X4 run in the planer, which is much slower and less productive because we obviously end up taking 2" off the width with the planer. He pointed out that board edgers are only a break-even prospect at best, because you might run just a fraction of the shift's production through it, but you still have to pay a guy to man the thing the entire shift. I guess it would make more sense in a bigger mill that is running any number of dimensions at once and has more opportunities for recovery, but we run one size at a time.

Just some thoughts.


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## Brmorgan (Oct 7, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> Where at in SE MO? That is a thing to think about... My grandfather in law Owned a Scragg mill He sold out about 10 years ago



I really like *Scragg saws*; they're awesome for grade-sawing small, short logs. You don't see many people running them though. The sawmill I worked at about 10 years ago as a student had one on their small-log third line. It was also a curve saw and could cut boards parallel to the pith on crooked logs. The result was often a curved board, but the logic was that if it was laid flat and weighted as it dried, it would stay relatively straight after the lignin was set by the kilns.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 8, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> I really like *Scragg saws*; they're awesome for grade-sawing small, short logs. You don't see many people running them though. The sawmill I worked at about 10 years ago as a student had one on their small-log third line. It was also a curve saw and could cut boards parallel to the pith on crooked logs. The result was often a curved board, but the logic was that if it was laid flat and weighted as it dried, it would stay relatively straight after the lignin was set by the kilns.



Interesting point on your earlier article! 
I asked him why he sold out his scragg mill and he told me "to much handling" He is very blunt and gets right to the point alot. lol But I know a mill here in SE MO That cuts eastern red cedar with a scragg he takes stuff all the way down to 6" and he wants them 4'6" Pays a pretty good price as well but he makes it all into linings for closets and furniture and what not.. he also cuts Walnut he takes stuff all the way down to 8" on the walnut. Another interesting thing he cuts is Sassafras he sells them for duck calls? Didnt even know they made duck cals out of sassafras


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## NC4TN (Oct 8, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Short answer: the economy is in the toilet, and people are doing whatever to survive.
> 
> On public land and on corporate land, there is probably better forestry management than there ever has been before, but you still have individual landowners and small logging companies who are only concerned about the short term. Realistically, they will not live long enough to see the benefits of good forest management.
> 
> ...




Mtngun hit it on the head. The fine hardwood market here in the south is dead and appears to be dead for the foreseeable future. Those big nice fine oaks don't bring didley squat, and those that do sell get loaded on a ship to China for veneering logs. Fine furniture and flooring hardwoods like ash, red oak, cherry aren't worth hauling out of the woods.

Here in the south, the clearcuts happens because the paper mills will take just about anything, and even that eventually ends up in, you guessed it; China.


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## boatman (Oct 9, 2010)

It's good to hear we are exporting something to china.


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## Brmorgan (Oct 9, 2010)

boatman said:


> It's good to hear we are exporting something to china.



Well, yes and no. One of the leading indicators of a third world economy is the export of raw materials and import of finished goods! We (Canada too) are slowly getting there. I hate seeing raw log exporting, no matter where they're headed.


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## DRB (Oct 9, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Well, yes and no. One of the leading indicators of a third world economy is the export of raw materials and import of finished goods! We (Canada too) are slowly getting there. I hate seeing raw log exporting, no matter where they're headed.



:agree2:

We are getting closer to them. Third world countries that is.
Raw log exports are not good.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 9, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Well, yes and no. One of the leading indicators of a third world economy is the export of raw materials and import of finished goods! We (Canada too) are slowly getting there. I hate seeing raw log exporting, no matter where they're headed.



The Chinese are buying the logs like crazy! Pakistan, Israel as well!


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## lumberinspector (Oct 10, 2010)

Here in Iowa, we hit our low point last year. Laid off once, mill shut down for awhile, reduced hours etc. 

Now for us, the hardwood lumber market is being good to us for the time. Log supply has been good for a long period of time. Before, we were switching species every couple days. Now we can be on one for a week or more. 

Even the low grade lumber is moving well in some species. 2A/B & 3A. We have done a few more width sorts with our pallet lumber but nothing major. 

Veneer market must still be going strong because our veneer yard has been full most of the year and the container trucks keep rolling in. 

Now if you read, our industry is faced with diesease problems. EAB and the canker in Walnut. 

If the canker gets out of control, that could cause a problem. Walnut can be the bread and butter but with out the over seas market, it would crash just like oak did a few years ago. I'd like to see the lumber stay here in the states, but when times are tough, you have to do what pays the bills. 

I think for the most part, todays logging and sawmill practices are much better than the past. With all the new technology, the lumber recovery from each log is better, bark is ground into mulch, chips are being sold or used in house for heat etc. for kilns. Times these days, are calling for a slow down in how mills go about things, being more aware of all aspects of processing and finding ways to improve it, weather big or small. 

The Hardwood Forest Foundation has some interesting facts on the amount of timber we have today and our rate of harvest compared to the past. According to them, the majority of the industry is doing things right. You'll always have those who don't in any industry. 

I don't think we are out of the woods yet and there might be another down turn. 

I wish everyone in the forest industry is able to hang on and keep plugging away. There are better times ahead for all of us.


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## Ed*L (Oct 10, 2010)

Around here you won't see any 1200 acre clearcuts, thank God. 
We still have to many people having their logging done "old school", logger knocks on their door, hands them a check, rapes the woodlot. Not a good thing.
Two farmers I know have managed woodlots, Forester managed, what species are in demand, gets harvested, thats all. 
They do well. 
One major factor being the harvest money isn't needed for day to day operations, its a bonus check. To many people only harvest when the need $$$$ arises, makes for poor forest managment, poor wood quality for the end user and a pizz poor forest for future generations.

An often seen situtation is logger knocks on door, offers $$$ for woods. The owners are elderly, no longer farming, farmland is leased out providing (at least) enough to pay the property taxes. Kind of a "get rich quick" scheme. Landowner pockets $$$$, that they don't need, as their living comfortably (raised in the depression era, penny pinchers). They soon pass on, heirs that don't care about anything except how big their cut of the estate is are the only ones (other than the logger) who benifit from the greed.

Ed


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## Brmorgan (Oct 11, 2010)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> The Chinese are buying the logs like crazy! Pakistan, Israel as well!



Hm, hadn't heard of the latter two; that's interesting. At least China is starting to buy finished lumber from us in some significant quantities now too. If we can just get India on board more, combined with some decent domestic market growth through building code changes allowing larger wooden structures (like BC has done recently), we should be pretty stable and a lot less reliant on the volatility and trade wars with the US.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Oct 11, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Hm, hadn't heard of the latter two; that's interesting. At least China is starting to buy finished lumber from us in some significant quantities now too. If we can just get India on board more, combined with some decent domestic market growth through building code changes allowing larger wooden structures (like BC has done recently), we should be pretty stable and a lot less reliant on the volatility and trade wars with the US.



We got an order for 2 container full loads of Hackberry going to Israel... Dad said "Iv been in this industry for 30 some years and never even seen 2 container or hackberry!." haha


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