# Double Powerhead Milling



## WadePatton (Mar 20, 2007)

Would like to see some discussion of the pro's and con's of using a two med-large powerheads instead of one monster powerhead. 

Say two 80-85 cc saws in place of one 100+ saw.

I've searched and only found a couple of references to the double deal.

Will this work fine with the Alaskan mill and double bar? And if one powerhead dies--use the helper handle/oiler hickie?

TIA


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## woodshop (Mar 20, 2007)

pros = tons of raw milling power
cons = $$cost$$$ and needing a 2d guy willing to work hard and get dirty.

Never did it... so don't really know... but my experience tells me it would be a real good way to burn a Saturday morning. I'd love to be that second guy getting dirty. Anybody in the Philadelphia PA area need a hand some weekend on a two headed mill?


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## Railomatic (Mar 20, 2007)

WadePatton said:


> Would like to see some discussion of the pro's and con's of using a two med-large powerheads instead of one monster powerhead.
> 
> Say two 80-85 cc saws in place of one 100+ saw.
> 
> ...



Have you read this page yet, and I must add my findings are exactly the same answer.

http://www.procutportablesawmills.com/doublesawbars.htm


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## WadePatton (Mar 20, 2007)

Nawp, I'll go read it now.

Why two men? Didn't Will Malloff devise a remote throttle for "pull" milling--why not a double remote throttle? 

OH LOOKIE there's a "Will Malloff" website now, hmmm.


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## WadePatton (Mar 20, 2007)

Okay, Allan at Procut don't like it. I need some engineering talk to figger out how two powerheads can work together. They do seem to help the multiple engine pulling "tractors" and are used extensively in boating.

Fluid drive? Maybe that's what we need. Hyro-drive powerheads. That's how I unnerstand that the pulling "tractors" couple multiple engines. And it's obvious that's the method employed by boats.

Wouldn't that go a ways toward efficiently coupling the engines--assuming that is the problem.

I would think that smaller saws are cheaper and easier to sell and use less epensive parts and are handy for other chores if the mill isn't being used. And of course the other end is that two real bigguns should make milling huge stuff faster.

I'm not doubting anything Allan at Procut says about his experience. I'm just calculating as to why it's that way and what might be done about it.

WP


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## stonykill (Mar 20, 2007)

WadePatton said:


> Would like to see some discussion of the pro's and con's of using a two med-large powerheads instead of one monster powerhead.
> 
> Say two 80-85 cc saws in place of one 100+ saw.
> 
> ...



Its funny, I've just been thinking about this. Its all part of my long term plan to have a stationary mill at the edge of one of my fields. My plan is 2 high 60 to 70 something cc saws, double ended bar, and remote triggers using handles and throttle cable off of discarded weed wackers. This will all be mounted on a permanent fixture based on one of several in the old threads. With my home made csm riding on top. (I built a 44 inch home made csm, with this plan in mind.) Its all in my head right now, but I plan on working on it this year, hopefully late spring. I may not have the double head set up right away, but I want to have the mill built, and a remote trigger set up at the very least. The cement pillars are already in place for the base.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Mar 21, 2007)

$.02

I have not used a double ender myself but I personally can't see the need it. I've used my 72" bar/084 in up to 60" wood and got the job done well. I'll be tackling a log this weekend that setup may be too short for (almost makes me smile, really). More on that later...


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## Railomatic (Mar 21, 2007)

*Double ender set-up's*

To set the throttles on a double ender I used an automotive tacho, the type that clips over the HT lead.

I set each saw individually with the chain and both saws fitted to the bar
open each the throttle fully and hold it open using a strong elastic band, not your fingers, then drill a small hole right through the handle and trigger, 
making sure that you miss any internal springs etc and insert a good fitting pin, do this on both saws, see pictures of my 385XP, with one of the side rubbers removed you can see there is already a small hole in the trigger body mech, leave one side cover on and drill through, change covers and drill the other side so you get the holes perfectly in line.

The butterfly plates in all new carbs are set at the factory, but if your not sure, you can check if they are both opening fully before you drill the holes, 
Now start each saw individually and set the high speed screw/s, do not run them past the recommended maximums and remember the actual speed/s you have, do this on both saws, a balance will not be set until both saws are at running temprature, warm things up first.

Now start both saws and check with the tacho readings again, and fine adjust things using the high speed screws if needed, if you have experience and a good ear you can hear when both saws are running together.

What you cannot control is the amount of clutch wear and grab on the clutch bodies, IE, the amount of oil and dust that enters them, this is going to give a slightly different amount of driven speeds from each saw, but if they are the same make of saw and either new or in good condition they should be very close, this senario does take away some of the co- efficiency that Alan at Procut has mentioned in his explanation.

And as Alan from Procut has said, you only get a real benefit from two saws working together if you are cutting very wide boards of over 50 inches.

I have made a few double enders before, the cheapest new outfit was two Makita/Dolmar 9010's which cost £ 590.00 each here in the Uk, double ended bar 60" costs £ 250.00, which comes to just over the retail price of the big 880 with 36" bar and chain here in the UK.

You can sometimes convert your existing bar and chain to a smaller pitch 325 I use a Cannon 50" Superbar on my old 088 and Roller-Matic, the drive sprocket has 9 teeth, chain is by Oregon set a 5 degrees, and it really does do the job just as well as any double ender.


The 9010's are very well engineered saw made in Germany and are very underated, I think they are every bit as good if not better that any other equivalent saw like the 660 or 395, but that's only my opinion.

OH and one thing I forgot to mention was, one advantage you have over a single saw is, you have double the bar oiling.


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## woodshop (Mar 21, 2007)

Rail the more I see those rollers on your mill, the more I like that idea and want to try it. If I had the time, I would have already rigged something like that up and tried it already.


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## Railomatic (Mar 22, 2007)

woodshop said:


> Rail the more I see those rollers on your mill, the more I like that idea and want to try it. If I had the time, I would have already rigged something like that up and tried it already.



Woody

Please check your PM's


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## 00juice (Mar 22, 2007)

Is there a big difference in required effort to push that mill on rollers through a log compared to a standard granberg.


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## Railomatic (Mar 24, 2007)

*effort with rollers or lack of it.*

There is a marked difference in the amount of strength needed to cut through the log, the four rollers on the floating platform is only the first stage in progessing along the side of the log, the fifth roller, which guides the frame along the side acts together with the top four making things much easier.

Especially on logs with uneven edges, you can swivel the mill quickly when you came across a knott in the timer, as cutting a right angles eases the stresses.

A skid also works to prevent this, BUT, when the saw is biting hard everything is rammed up against the log, causing friction there and making it harder to push, a skid also take away the ability to swivel the saw, because when you do this it also reduces your width cutting capacity, as it acts like a lever pulling the saw away from the side of the log, I hope this makes scense.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Mar 30, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> You can sometimes convert your existing bar and chain to a smaller pitch 325 I use a Cannon 50" Superbar on my old 088 and Roller-Matic, the drive sprocket has 9 teeth, chain is by Oregon set a 5 degrees, and it really does do the job just as well as any double ender.



Could you elaborate on this? What chain do you start with? Full comp or skip? Chisel, semi-chisel, or chipper? Guage?

The only chain I've been able to get my hands on that will fit my 44" .063 guage bars is Carlton micro-chisel, full comp. I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

I'm about to buy a 60" bar and it's looking like it may be a Woodsman Pro (Cannon). GB has stopped making their FX roller nose bars and my dealer just sold his last 60"er. As far as I can tell the WP/ Cannon is the only other long bar where .325 is an option.


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## Railomatic (Mar 30, 2007)

*bar to chain conversions*

A Cannon superbar would be my first choice as I know and have used them for many years, the nose bearing can be converted to take a 325 roller, best check with your local stockist/Cannon dealer to see what combinations are available, I use their 50 incher for my CSM and Stihl 880.

Chain can come from anyone who makes them, I use Oregon chipmaster, you can use just ordinary chain if you want simplicity, its not that much slower cutting than ripping a chain, which I have used on many occasions before today, Will Mallof has said the same thing here.

Search around to see what and who is offering, don't go for the first thing you come across, there may be some good offers available, I buy my chain in bulk rolls, this makes it a lot cheaper, you cut and join your own chain which also saves on price.

You will find that when using 325 in place of 404 on a saw like the 880, that you don't need to run the saw as hot as you would be using 404 chain, this helps to minimise stretching and still cuts much faster at 3/4 throttle this also save on fuel too. 

Keep the snatch up time to full throtle gentle and keep everything in tip top sharpness, never sharpen a chain for milling by hand, unless you are very experienced at this, because smaller pitch chain will wander more quickly than the bigger 404's.

One thing I nearly forgot to menton is, a 325 chain has more cutters than the 404 and gives a better finish to the plank.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks for the info.


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## aquan8tor (Mar 30, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> There is a marked difference in the amount of strength needed to cut through the log, the four rollers on the floating platform is only the first stage in progessing along the side of the log, the fifth roller, which guides the frame along the side acts together with the top four making things much easier.
> 
> Especially on logs with uneven edges, you can swivel the mill quickly when you came across a knott in the timer, as cutting a right angles eases the stresses.
> 
> A skid also works to prevent this, BUT, when the saw is biting hard everything is rammed up against the log, causing friction there and making it harder to push, a skid also take away the ability to swivel the saw, because when you do this it also reduces your width cutting capacity, as it acts like a lever pulling the saw away from the side of the log, I hope this makes scense.



Damn. Wish I'd seen your mill before I bought my alaskan. Going to have to come up with some sort of mod. What is the white wheel made of?? Would HDPE work well enough??


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## Railomatic (Mar 31, 2007)

*Ptfe*



aquan8tor said:


> Damn. Wish I'd seen your mill before I bought my alaskan. Going to have to come up with some sort of mod. What is the white wheel made of?? Would HDPE work well enough??



The wheel is made from standard PTFE with a plain shaft bearing inside.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Mar 31, 2007)

aquan8tor said:


> Damn. Wish I'd seen your mill before I bought my alaskan. Going to have to come up with some sort of mod. What is the white wheel made of?? Would HDPE work well enough??



If you have some HDPE already it should work just fine. I've used it for many different applications and it holds up very well. Just don't let it get hot...ref. http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=45983.


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## contractgs (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi there,

In reply to the initial thread I've tried using two powerheads to mill wood. I had looked at a few sites (included the procut website) but still couldn't quite understand why you need to have two chains saws that rev at the same speed.

I had an old MS260 and MS440 and with a double ended 50 inch bar (using 3/8 pitch, .063 granberg rip chain milling 36inch diameter timber) and put them together with my alaskan. Although they may rev at different speeds as soon as you start milling chain speed slows and so both saws are trying to push that chain around. It makes milling easier as you have someone else pushing the mill up the wood. Also because the other person is using a chainsaw they don't get any vibration from the bar (as you can get from helper handles etc.) And you get another oil supply into the bar.

I'd like to try it with a couple more powerful saws. I spoke to someone who'd hooked 2 MS880 with a 66inch double ended bar and he reckoned it was much faster than a single MS880 (more than twice as fast).

It's quite easy to see if the other saw is helping the milling process - I simply got the other person to release the throttle on the MS260. Straight away the mill was barely moving. Increase the throttle on the MS260 and away it went!

I couldn't really see the point of using a double ended system for logs smaller than 30 inches or so as it's not worth the extrat fuel and oil as well as tying up a second person.


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## WadePatton (Apr 1, 2007)

Divergence of opinion is good. :greenchainsaw: 

We must not have any engineering folks on here to explain the problems with coupling two powerheads via chain.

I'd like to be given a grant to research the situation. 

I'd want 2 large saws, two 85cc saws, a couple of double end bars, half a dozen single bars, a dozen different chain setups, two or three mills, several boxes of files, chaps, fuel money, and money to hire a helper. 

I'd also want input from all the folks here and would report at least weekly.

I've got the wood.  

Problem is that my formal education doesn't have anything to do with engineering or statistical analysis or math at all. But I think I could set the record straight.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 1, 2007)

WadePatton said:


> Divergence of opinion is good. :greenchainsaw:
> 
> We must not have any engineering folks on here to explain the problems with coupling two powerheads via chain.
> 
> ...



I'll volunteer to be the second party for a double blind test. Now all we need is a volunteer to fund it.


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## contractgs (Apr 1, 2007)

Perhaps Stihl would be happy to sponsor something like this!

Or maybe not!


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 1, 2007)

contractgs said:


> Perhaps Stihl would be happy to sponsor something like this!
> 
> Or maybe not!



    

STOP!!!! YOU'RE MAKING MY SIDES HURT!!!!!


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## WadePatton (Apr 1, 2007)

Well I started that post thinking of gov't funding or more accurately stated "public funding" (but let's not pursue that here.) AS is the site put up on milling by the UK. 

But I just had a brainstorm and it might work.

Simply add CSmilling to the events offered at competitive sawing venues. 
   

Anytime you offer a prize or plaque for the fastest or strongest--you'll find out what works and what doesn't. 

Okay maybe a new thread is in order to discuss the formalities of such an event. ..


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## WadePatton (Apr 5, 2007)

Milling competition--points for speed, accuracy, and finish. 

And all sawchain must be made available for inspection by the judges, competitors, and any interested parties.:hmm3grin2orange:


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