# Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions



## bsearcey

Hi All,

I'm a new wood stove owner and I have a question about my Federal Airtight 264CCL made by Dutchwest India LTD. WoodDoc has been a big help so far. I know he uses a FA 288, and it looks great.

1. Does anyone out there have a manual for it or know where to find one? I've looked all over the net and can't find one for my particular model. I've found manuals for the Consolidated Dutchwest models, but these are for the stoves after they were bought out by Vermont Castings I believe and there were some slight modifications to the stove. To the best of my knowledge this unit was produced in 83. 

Thanks to All


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## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm a new wood stove owner and I have a question about my Federal Airtight 264CCL made by Dutchwest India LTD. WoodDoc has been a big help so far. I know he uses a FA 288, and it looks great.
> 
> 1. Does anyone out there have a manual for it or know where to find one? I've looked all over the net and can't find one for my particular model. I've found manuals for the Consolidated Dutchwest models, but these are for the stoves after they were bought out by Vermont Castings I believe and there were some slight modifications to the stove. To the best of my knowledge this unit was produced in 83.
> 
> Thanks to All


I'll try to find mine -- 1987. If I can scan it, I will do it. It was at least 10 big pages and believe me, they don't write them for anything that way anymore. It was written by pros and in English. opcorn:

Good Grief, I found it. Here's the title:
*General Instructions Covering All Consolidated Dutchwest Stoves & Fireplace Inserts*
Version 6, a total of 20 pages. From 1982 to 2000, this company ran a class act in Plymouth, Massachusetts. I'm sure that all the phone numbers don't mean anything anymore, but most of these instructions are excellent and well written.

Back in 1987, the 264CCL with standard features sold for $970, plus shipping and tax. It weighed 440 lb and was designed to heat areas from 9,000 to 13,000 cubic feet and generate 67,000 BTU/hr. Maximum burn time was rated at 11 hours and the stove could handle a 22" log. Efficiency was measured at 83%. Not too shabby.

The Stove Buyer's Guide and the Installation Planner inserts that accompanied the 1987 catalog were classic manuscripts. Somebody who worked for this company literally wrote themselves to death. The catalog itself sold for $2.50. I've never seen anything written recently for any product that could match what these people put together 22 years ago.


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## bsearcey

*Federal Airtight 264CCL*

Thanks Wood Doctor,

Could you scan that manual for me? I seached it online and I found a manual titled: *CONSOLIDATED DUTCHWEST STOVES & FIREPLACE INSERTS - Pre-90*. Doesn't exactly match your title or your synopsis. I had already found that manual, but it did not seem to pertain to my stove exactly. 

Another issue that I've noticed with my stove is about the air controls. Everything that I've read (pre-90 manual and schematics on Vermont Castings and Black Swan Websites) and also by looking at the picture of your 288 says that these stoves (FA224, FA264, FA288) should have 3 air supply controls: 1-underfire-on ash tray door, 2-overfire-on side feed door, and 3-combustor air control-on side above side load door. Well my unit only has the underfire and the overfire controls. I don't have the third combustor control. What do you make of that? I'm pretty sure my unit was made in 83 because on the back plate with all the model info and UL # says the it was tested in 8/83. Could this be the reason? This is all getting really confusing. I'll try and post some pics later this evening to show what I'm talking about. 

Thanks for all your help


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## Wood Doctor

*Secondary CC Valve*

It could be that they did not introduce the air control to the secondary combustion chamber (above the side loading door) until after 1983. You may wish to lift off the top cover plate and look inside the secondary combustion chamber. The air comes in from the left side.

What your older model may have is air coming in from another source and that has no control valve. I don't think it's a big deal as long is air is getting there from somewhere. I usualy have that cranked wide open anyway and control the fire intensity with the other two valves.

Where did you find that online manual? Is it a PDF? Can you post a link so that I can compare it with mine? If there is little difference, it would be pointless to scan 21 pages. Also, the print is rather small, so the scan may not do well.


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## bsearcey

*Pre-90 Manual*

I just found an identification guide for the FA stoves. It cleared up why I did not have the 3 combustor valve. Apparently from 84-86 that valve was not included on any of the models (I guess goes back as far a 83 in my case). 

Here is the link:
http://www.discountstove.com/cdwidguide.html

Here is a link to the Pre-1990 manual.
http://rs.woodmanspartsplus.com/company_41/Manual_DWPre1990_EN4.pdf.pdf

I have taken the top off of the stove in order to inspect and clean. The stove cement around the edge sealing the top to the sides cracked of course and alot of it was white/chalky. Do you recommend any particular brand so that I can reseal it?

Thanks again Wood Doc.


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## Wood Doctor

*Good News -- Same Manual*

That's the same manual that I have. You saved me 21 pages of scanning. It's actually better than mine, so you have me updated.

Rutland makes a very good stove cement, and most home improvement centers carry it--Menards, Lowes, HD, or even Tractor Supply (TSC stores).






Combine that with the fireproof rope sealer. I believe you can get a kit that contains the cement and the rope sealer. About every two years I scrape out the old rope and reseal all the doors and the top plate with new rope and cement. The stove will love you for that.


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## bsearcey

*Gaskets*

Well glad I could be of some help to you with the manual. I called up a VC dealer in my area and they have all the gasket I need. Funny thing about that though. The cement he recommended for the gaskets is rated @ 450 degrees. Sounds a little low to me, but they are the professionals. Do you have any thoughts on that Doc?

I think I'm giving up on finding a manual for my model. From everything I've seen in the manual I linked to, everything seems the same except for he combuster air inlet. And as you and every other FA user has said, each install is different and you have to play around with the air to get the right settings for you. 

I have the chimney inspector/sweep coming on Monday, so hopefully I'll get some more info on the stove and also about the best way to connect to my chimney. 

Thanks for all the help,


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## bsearcey

*Here we go!*

Crunch time is here. I have basically everything I need to get this stove in place. Stove is clean and ready for paint. Paints in. Liners in. Gaskets are in. Block off plate and mineral wool is here. All that is needed is to put the puzzle together. Still waiting on some furnace cement in caulk tubes to get in, but they should be here tomorrow. Installation will begin by this weekend. Here are some pics of the before for anyone interested. Keep watching.


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## bsearcey

*Quick Update*

I've gotten delayed a little bit. Found out that I had the SWINE FLU on Fri, but really not that big a deal. The worst it ever was for me was a sore throat. And that was only on Friday. Apparently I had symptons since around last Mon or Tues, I just that I had a cold. Anyway, I did take it a little easy Saturday so really didn't get anything accomplished. 

I got the liner down the chimney. Man was that easy. It was harder climbing up the ladder with the liner then actually putting it in though. It's definitely a 2 man job though. One person feeding and the other person holding the back end up as high as can go. I think all together it took about 20 mins to get the liner down (and that includes putting the ladder up). 

I was going to directly connect the base of the liner to the flue collar on the stove. However, I think I'm going to have to get an ovalized tee connection made up for it. The Federal Airtights have a pretty cool flue collar setup, in that, depending on how you attach the flue collar to the stove you either a top exit or rear exit. So herein lies my problem, if I vent to the rear there is no way I can get the ovalized flex liner to bend enough to connect to the flue collar without severly crimping it. I could vent to the top, but because of the angle that the liner is coming through the damper, I would have to push the stove futher into the fireplace to make the connection and then I would not be able to use the side load door. 

I think I'm going to have to rethink my block off plate. Once I got the liner installed I put the plate in and started trying to feed the liner through the hole I made, well that was a PITA. I had cut the hole in the block off plate dead center, but the liner was coming down at a different angle so the hole and liner didn't exactly match up. Now that the liner is in I can get some measurements and adjust the hole in the block off plate. I also think I going to try and attach it a different way. I was trying to use angle brakets, but that was a pain and I didn't like the way it held. 

I'll try and get some pics up today.


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## bsearcey

*Done*

I'm finally finished (except for the pieces that go over the convection holes in the corners), but she burns. Man this thing puts out heat. When the cat kicks on it is crazy hot. Since the begining of the Thanksgiving holiday I've run it everyday. Granted in VA it has not been cold really (I think we got to 40 last night) but I can certainly see the potential to heat the whole house with the stove. With the HVAC circulating fan on I've had temps at the registers upstairs at around 75. That's way hotter than the house ever is during this time of year. The only downside is that the living room is almost 90. I'm sure as the cold really sets in I'll be able to keep the temps a little more manageable by opening the windows. Hopefully I won't lose too much heat through the HVAC system since the duct work runs through the crawlspace and attic. If I can keep it in the 60's up stairs I'll consider it perfect. 

As a side note. When I was looking up stuff on the forums about this stove I saw alot of posts with people dogging these stoves (except for WoodDoc of course). I don't see it. This thing works great. It's easy to control and like I said puts out tremendous heat. I've got the smallest unit that was made and I'm heating an 1800 square foot house with it so far. I think thats pretty good. So for anyone else who may have an opportunity to get one I say go for it. The only real downside I can think of is getting parts. They seem to be pricey and some aren't even available.

And by the way if anyone wants the coal grates or some 2" thick 3'x4' mineral wool insulation let me know. I'm sure we could work something out. Just send me a PM.

So heres some pics.


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## Wood Doctor

Nice job, Brandon. Cold temperatures are on the way east and should get there by Thursday. We reached 21 F last night and the teens are on tap for Wednesday. It really creeps up on you. October was actually colder in NE than November. We also had no November snowfall at all, the first time in 25 years.

Parts for Federal Airtight stoves are getting so scarce that I now make all my own in the shop and buy plate steel from a welder as need be. Last I heard, DiscountStove.Com is about the only outfit left that has any parts at all.

About any 6" round cat combustor will work, such as those for Englander stoves, and I believe they are readily available for about $30 or less.

Yes, these stoves are underrated and often criticized unfairly. Note that most sports cars are not very easy to drive, but good drivers won't part with them. Your color choice is truly unique. I had no idea that you could obtain a deep burgundy like that. I predict you will have a wonderful hobby through the years feeding this stove. I call mine "Jaws", because she will swallow just about anything.
:yourock:


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## bsearcey

*Bring on the cold!*

Thanks Doc.

Yeah. It's supposed to get to 35 here tonight. It's a great feeling to come into a house from the cold and get hit with the hot air from the stove and not the poor excuse for heat that comes from my heat pump. 

Black Swan also has the parts available for the stove and they also list the prices and usually a picture of the part. I found it a useful site when figureing out the stove. Fortunately for me my neighbor and father in law are both machinists, so between the two I think I'll be able to fabricate something if need be. 

You mentioned those Englander cats before and how cheap they are. I could not find them at all (at least not at that price). The cheapest I found is made by Condar for $100.

The color of the stove is Mojave Red. It is a Stove Bright paint. Stove Bright has some great colors to choose from. I didn't want to go with the traditional black because the stove has become a focal point of the living room and we wanted it to look more like a piece of furniture than just a black box. The paint actually changes color when it reaches around 350. You can see in my burning pics how the upper front gets kind of burgundy (purpulish red), but the bottom stays the brick red color. Once the stove cools down it returns to the brick red color. 

Even if I left it black it would still look great. I really like the art decoish style of the stove. There really isn't that much of a difference between our stoves (mid 80s) and the new VC Fed Airs except that there is more glass on the doors now. Kind of says alot about the stove in my opinion.

By the way. I sand blasted all the brass on the stove except dampers which I'll get those over X-mas. My pieces orginally looked pretty crappy. I think they must have been coated with something to make them shiny because they were kind of discolored and you could see where some of the coating was flaking off. The pieces look great now. Its a goldish color.


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## raybonz

*stove gasket etc. for FA264CCL CDW stove*



bsearcey said:


> Well glad I could be of some help to you with the manual. I called up a VC dealer in my area and they have all the gasket I need. Funny thing about that though. The cement he recommended for the gaskets is rated @ 450 degrees. Sounds a little low to me, but they are the professionals. Do you have any thoughts on that Doc?
> 
> I think I'm giving up on finding a manual for my model. From everything I've seen in the manual I linked to, everything seems the same except for he combuster air inlet. And as you and every other FA user has said, each install is different and you have to play around with the air to get the right settings for you.
> 
> I have the chimney inspector/sweep coming on Monday, so hopefully I'll get some more info on the stove and also about the best way to connect to my chimney.
> 
> Thanks for all the help,



Lowes has 3/8" gasket with the high temp glue for under $7.00.. I just replaced my side load door gasket and there was enough to do it 2 times...I rarely open the front doors so I never replace those gaskets as they are like new.. FYI I have a 1988ish FA264CCL.. If you haven't been to www.********** you should check it out... Great forum there just like here cept more info on woodburning etc.. FYI most people hate these stoves but mine has run for over 20 yrs and only part I have replaced is the cast baffle under the cat and it cost me under $25.00.. Other than that this is the 2nd cat (1st cat came with stove)and it stilll goes catalytic quickly... One thing I have learned is these stoves HATE wood that is not dry! Back when I bought this stove I got a promo deal and paid $650.00 and that included the ash bin, log tote, gloves, firetool set and all the coal stuff I have never used!! Hell it even came with spare door latches etc that are still brand new! The only thing I don't use now is the woodtote because I can't find it lol... I heat my house 24/7 on 2.5-3 cords a yr (mostly oak) in southeast Mass. Not too shabby for a lousy stove!

Ray


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Thanks Doc.
> 
> Yeah. It's supposed to get to 35 here tonight. It's a great feeling to come into a house from the cold and get hit with the hot air from the stove and not the poor excuse for heat that comes from my heat pump.
> 
> Black Swan also has the parts available for the stove and they also list the prices and usually a picture of the part. I found it a useful site when figureing out the stove. Fortunately for me my neighbor and father in law are both machinists, so between the two I think I'll be able to fabricate something if need be.
> 
> You mentioned those Englander cats before and how cheap they are. I could not find them at all (at least not at that price). The cheapest I found is made by Condar for $100.
> 
> The color of the stove is Mojave Red. It is a Stove Bright paint. Stove Bright has some great colors to choose from. I didn't want to go with the traditional black because the stove has become a focal point of the living room and we wanted it to look more like a piece of furniture than just a black box. The paint actually changes color when it reaches around 350. You can see in my burning pics how the upper front gets kind of burgundy (purpulish red), but the bottom stays the brick red color. Once the stove cools down it returns to the brick red color.
> 
> Even if I left it black it would still look great. I really like the art decoish style of the stove. There really isn't that much of a difference between our stoves (mid 80s) and the new VC Fed Airs except that there is more glass on the doors now. Kind of says alot about the stove in my opinion.
> 
> By the way. I sand blasted all the brass on the stove except dampers which I'll get those over X-mas. My pieces orginally looked pretty crappy. I think they must have been coated with something to make them shiny because they were kind of discolored and you could see where some of the coating was flaking off. The pieces look great now. Its a goldish color.



Scotch Brite works well to remove the lacquer finish on the brass then you can shine it up to look like gold with Brasso... I do this if the weather allows me to cool the stove down.. My wife thinks I'm nuts and I probably am but the brass looks awesome lol!!!


Ray


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## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> Scotch Brite works well to remove the lacquer finish on the brass then you can shine it up to look like gold with Brasso... I do this if the weather allows me to cool the stove down.. My wife thinks I'm nuts and I probably am but the brass looks awesome lol!!!
> 
> Ray


Ray, I chuck the brass knobs into my drill press. Then I spin sand them with 220 grit sandpaper. Nothing shines them up faster and better than that does. Give it a try. :greenchainsaw:


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## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Ray, I chuck the brass knobs into my drill press. Then I spin sand them with 220 grit sandpaper. Nothing shines them up faster and better than that does. Give it a try. :greenchainsaw:




Hey never thought of that! I just happen to have a drillpress down cellar too! They have some nice brass on these stoves most newer ones do not unless you pay lots extra for it.. Oddly they also gave us 3 brass handles when you can only use one at a time ... I rotate em once in a while.. I find that never seize is a good lube for the hinge pins and takes the heat really well and I also lube the threads on the brass dampers with it too... Thanx for the advice!

Ray


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## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> Hey never thought of that! I just happen to have a drillpress down cellar too! They have some nice brass on these stoves most newer ones do not unless you pay lots extra for it.. Oddly they also gave us 3 brass handles when you can only use one at a time ... I rotate em once in a while.. I find that never seize is a good lube for the hinge pins and takes the heat really well and I also lube the threads on the brass dampers with it too... Thanx for the advice!
> 
> Ray


About 1000 RPM is all you need. Anything faster than that is a waste. Don't worry about the threads. They are tough, so tighten the chuck normally. Get a nice smooth spin before you start. Take your time. It's a piece of cake. They will shine beautifully.


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## Jason123

*federal airtight question*

Hello,
I have a federal airtight 224 which is a smaller version of the 264. I just found an owners manual for it online and it looks like I am missing a part. It is called a "refractory package" and it is located directly above the cat. Does anyone know anything about this part? And if I need it to operate the stove or at least to operate the stove with the smoke going through the cat? I am not 100% sure that I am missing a part since the owners manual covers 1990-1993 and mine is an 1988, however everything seems to match mine exactly.

Thanks,
Jason


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## Wood Doctor

Directly above the cat? My 288 doesn't have one, just the heavy steel plate casting on the very top that holds the thermometer. If you remove the cat, you can look straight down into the firebox. Above the cat, there is nothing but air between it and the top steel plate casting.

Welcome aboard, Jason.


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## raybonz

Jason123 said:


> Hello,
> I have a federal airtight 224 which is a smaller version of the 264. I just found an owners manual for it online and it looks like I am missing a part. It is called a "refractory package" and it is located directly above the cat. Does anyone know anything about this part? And if I need it to operate the stove or at least to operate the stove with the smoke going through the cat? I am not 100% sure that I am missing a part since the owners manual covers 1990-1993 and mine is an 1988, however everything seems to match mine exactly.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jason



There is no refractory anything in my stove which is the same vintage as yours but the FA264CCL (Large Convection).. From all that I read refractory materials are what fails in the newer stoves and like Doc stated the only thing above my cat is the polished iron cook plate but there is a 1/4" rope gasket to seal the plate to the stovetop... The fact that these older stoves have no refractory mat'l's is probably why they last so long and need very few parts!

Ray


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## LesW

Hi, folks...New member.

I also have a Federal Airtight insert, and have some questions.

It's virtually identical to Wood Doctor's insert...just a few minor differences,
like no "above fire" damper on the upper left side.

I bought it used a while back for $75, built a new steel backplate for it,
(the original was burned through) and put in a new cat someone gave me.

I also built a variable speed blower for it. There's basically zero heat if the blower isn't running.

The thing works, but I'm kinda wondering why it doesn't put out more heat.
Comparing it to an electric heater , I would say that it puts out about twice as much. So 3000 watts or so....about 10,000 BTU/hr.

Is there some trick to running these things? I'm not sure if I'm lighting off the cat since it has no thermometer. Often the fire will go out if I engage the cat anyway, even though I have HUGE draft from a high chimney.

For other parts of my house and business I use pellet stoves. Am I just spoiled? With those I get 50,000 BTU/hr from a 3x3 inch burn pot.

Anyway, glad to join this forum. I have several thousand trees on the property.

Les


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## Wood Doctor

This is a fireplace insert? Sounds like that is the main problem. You are sending most of your heat up the chimney. Note that my stove extends into the room 16" or so and radiates heat off the top and sides. Is yours extending that far out? If it's an insert, it is not.

My 288 actually could be used as a free standing stove and that would increase the heat output at least 50%. However, that would also overheat the downstairs area of the house because it kicks out 55,000 BTU/hr as a free-standing stove.

It appears you are not getting the full benefit from the wood heat because it is an insert and without the blower, most of the convection heat is being lost up the chimney. Your blower is all that you have to help capture some of that. When my stove's secondary combustion kicks in and heats the top surface, that doubles or triples efficiency and heat output. The flue gases will sometimes jump to as high as 1400 F if the draft is there. I usually run between 1000 and 1200 F.


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## LesW

It looks virtually identical to the picture you posted of yours. The casting details, doors, almost everything.

Not sure of the model #...it's hidden I guess.

It does stick out about 16 inches at the thickest part, but the box protrudes about 12 inches mostly.

It might be smaller than yours...it's 22x22. Next smaller model?

I laid a meat thermometer on the top at the square cover plate that lifts off.
Not well thermally coupled, but I only get about 250 degreesF. Other stoves i have had got much much hotter. Hot enough to burn things.

I just wonder if i'm operating it properly. Without the cat all dampers are closed...just the seal leakage is more than enough air...perhaps too much.
With the cat engaged I have to open the side damper a lot or the fire will go out. Bottom front damper stays closed per instructions.The cat really restricts the flow. You use the upper chamber but without the cat, right? I wonder if that would help If I tried that. I have very little smoke.

My wood is well dried white and red oak...split and 3 years in the woodshed.
My RF moisture meter says under 12% moisture.

I could sure use a bit more heat...getting nailed with the artic air mass pulled down due to the Greenland block weather phenominon...below zero chill factor expected here in the southern mountains. I'm in a drafty old house too.

Edit: after re reading you post your getting about 25000 btu/hr as set up? I'd be happy with that. Is yours the 22x22" size?

Les


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## LesW

A little update...

This morning it was fairly cold...16 degrees. Will be single digits tonight...and windy.

So I loaded the thing up with more wood this time...split wood filling about 2/3 of the firebox (still lots of airspace).

After a while I engaged the cat and it finally lit. It is glowing red. I was able to close all the air dampers, since I have so much gasket leakage.

Much more heat now. The meat thermometer reads 500 degrees on the top, and it's not even in good contact with the cast iron.

My guess is that it's puttiing out 15-20,000 BTU/hr now. 

Turns out this is the smallest stove, the 224. Smaller than Wood doctor's.

Considering the size I guess this amount of heat is ok. It will heat a large room in this draftly old house. Will use lots of wood too. The small size means refilling often.I think it could use a seal job...that might help.

And yes I'll bet it would put out more if I had it free standing.

I do have two other stoves besides the pellet ones, but I took them out for safety/decor reasons. One is a big Fisher...it puts out a huge amount of heat,
enough for a whole house. It's a bad creosote maker though.

Les


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## raybonz

LesW said:


> A little update...
> 
> This morning it was fairly cold...16 degrees. Will be single digits tonight...and windy.
> 
> So I loaded the thing up with more wood this time...split wood filling about 2/3 of the firebox (still lots of airspace).
> 
> After a while I engaged the cat and it finally lit. It is glowing red. I was able to close all the air dampers, since I have so much gasket leakage.
> 
> Much more heat now. The meat thermometer reads 500 degrees on the top, and it's not even in good contact with the cast iron.
> 
> My guess is that it's puttiing out 15-20,000 BTU/hr now.
> 
> Turns out this is the smallest stove, the 224. Smaller than Wood doctor's.
> 
> Considering the size I guess this amount of heat is ok. It will heat a large room in this draftly old house. Will use lots of wood too. The small size means refilling often.I think it could use a seal job...that might help.
> 
> And yes I'll bet it would put out more if I had it free standing.
> 
> I do have two other stoves besides the pellet ones, but I took them out for safety/decor reasons. One is a big Fisher...it puts out a huge amount of heat,
> enough for a whole house. It's a bad creosote maker though.
> 
> Les



Your stove info: 9,100-34,800 BTU's/hr according to the manual.. Here is a link to the PDF Manual which covers models FA224,264 & 288:

http://www.firewood.jp/abc/CDW 90_93_2181_2183_2184.pdf

The link is in Japan but the manual is in english..

Ray


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## LesW

Thanks for the link, Ray. Very helpful.

BTU range seems about right.

This morning it's 11 degrees. Can't seem to get the cat to light off though. I'll chuck some more wood in like yesterday. Seems only a very hot fire with a full load will light it. If it doesn't light, heat output is very low.

I calculated a rough overall efficiency for this old stove, but you don't want to know. It's not good. But hey, it's better than freezing!

Les


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## raybonz

LesW said:


> Thanks for the link, Ray. Very helpful.
> 
> BTU range seems about right.
> 
> This morning it's 11 degrees. Can't seem to get the cat to light off though. I'll chuck some more wood in like yesterday. Seems only a very hot fire with a full load will light it. If it doesn't light, heat output is very low.
> 
> I calculated a rough overall efficiency for this old stove, but you don't want to know. It's not good. But hey, it's better than freezing!
> 
> Les



You're welcome Les! This is a very good forum but I suggest you check out http://www.**********/econtent/index.php/forums/ because you'll find loads of answers from others with the exact same stove as you have and ideas on how to get the best performance.. It's important to get a good fire going with DRY wood to establish a good draft then leave your secondary air open a couple turns when engage your cat...Once the cat goes over 500 degrees you can adjust your air from there.. If your cat is past its prime it may need to be replaced and they go for about $100.00 but are worth every penny... I clean my cat with a vacuum cleaner with the soft brush attachment then inspect the honeycomb for any blockage.. If the cat has pieces missing or is crumbling it's time for a new one.. I heat my 1632 sq. ft. house here in Mass. 24/7 with this stove on about 2.5-3 cords a yr. and get overnight burns however your stove is smaller and may not be able to do this... 

Good Luck!
Ray


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## bsearcey

*Fa224*

Les. You have the exact model I have (not above fire damper). Funny enough a guy recently PMd me about it and had the original manual for it. You won't find it on the web. Believe me I tried. If you want I copy I can get it to you. 

I agree the stove is small and does require more filling than the larger big brother, but my stove puts out alot of heat. I've been heating 1800 sqft with it since around Thanksgiving. I haven't hooked my blower up to it yet because it needs some work, but I'm sure that will make an even bigger difference. In the manual I have the efficiency testing for this stove has BTU output for low and high burns at 24,421 and 89,316 respectively. I've attached this page from the manual. Also check out the burn times. Can't really say I've seen results like this, but it could be possible I guess.

Jason: Seems to me I remember seeing something about the refractory package in a manual or something. It was optional and from what I remember increased effeciency by only a percent or 2. Not much. You certainly don't need it to run the stove.

Glad to see more people posting about these stoves.


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## bsearcey

*Using the stove pipe damper*

Any of you guys use the stove pipe damper? The reason I ask is because when I installed my stove (insert installation) I put the damper in the in flue collar on the stove. Until this weekend I've never messed with it and always left it completely open. During burns I would have virtually no smoke coming out of the chimney. This is of course with the cat engaged.

This weekend after reading this new manual I got. I've started closing the stove pipe damper when I engage the cat. Everything else about my operation is the same as before (getting up to temps and what not), but now I close the SP damper. Well there is all kinds of smoke coming out now. Especially in the first 30 mins of closing everything down. It's dirty smoke too. I know the cat is engaged (glowing), so I don't really understand where the smoke is coming from. Theoretically, by closing the SP damper I'm slowing the draw up my chimney which should allow more smoke to burn of at the cat. It's weird. You guys have any thoughts.


----------



## LesW

Thanks again. I read some threads there .

Seems like many folks have a low opinion of these stoves. But they can put out some heat...just a little finicky I guess.

Not a "throw a log on and forget it" stove.

Can't do an overnight burn with the 240...firebox is just too small. Reload time for me is 2 hours or so. Might be a little better If I regasketed it.

But...

Cat lit. Now 70 degrees in my office here.

Les


----------



## raybonz

LesW said:


> Thanks again. I read some threads there .
> 
> Seems like many folks have a low opinion of these stoves. But they can put out some heat...just a little finicky I guess.
> 
> Not a "throw a log on and forget it" stove.
> 
> Can't do an overnight burn with the 240...firebox is just too small. Reload time for me is 2 hours or so. Might be a little better If I regasketed it.
> 
> But...
> 
> Cat lit. Now 70 degrees in my office here.
> 
> Les



Two hours sounds very low to me.. Try burning seasoned (DRY) oak, beech, locust, apple, cherry,ash, maple etc. and replace those leaky rope gaskets and you should see a big difference..Pine is OK as long as it is dry but will burn fast and for a short time.. FYI Lowes carries the 3/8" rope gasket kit for under $7.00 which comes with the glue and it's easy to do it yourself just follow the directions.. The kit had enough gasket mat'l and glue to do my side load door 2 times.. Works like a charm .. Air control is vital to correct stove operation along with dry fuel preferably hardwood if you want longer hotter burns...

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Two hours sounds low to me too. On the weekends I find myself loading between 3.5 to 4 hours, but that is keeping it rocking. I can go 6 to 7 hours and the outside of stove will be in the 250-200 range.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Two hours sounds low to me too. On the weekends I find myself loading between 3.5 to 4 hours, but that is keeping it rocking. I can go 6 to 7 hours and the outside of stove will be in the 250-200 range.



Those are pretty decent numbers for a stove from 1984! Is that stove catalytic? As long as I have coals when I get up I can get it running in under 1/2 hr. most times and that is back to catalytic operation too.. For a lousy stove they sure do last a very long time!

Ray


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## LesW

Bsearchy,

I have the stove pipe damper too...big brass knob on the firplace fill panel.

Scared to use it though...it doesn't have much of a positive mechanical control. It's kinda either open or closed. Might be able to set it part way, but I just can't tell by the feel of the control.

The cat on mine has tons of flow restriction, as much as a mostly closed SP damper I would imagine. It's new but might be a little dirty.

Never really understood these dampers, unless they are just there to starve out chimney fires.

Had a bad experience with a flue damper in a fireplace once...snapped shut accidently. House full of smoke.

Edit: And yeah my 2 hr reload time is pretty short...that's the primary reason my calculated efficiency is only in the 30% range. But I know there are some major leaks, because I can close all the dampers completely and still get a lot of draft, with the fire sucking up
actively toward the stovepipe. I'll look into one of those gasket kits...thanks.

Les


----------



## raybonz

LesW said:


> Bsearchy,
> 
> I have the stove pipe damper too...big brass knob on the firplace fill panel.
> 
> Scared to use it though...it doesn't have much of a positive mechanical control. It's kinda either open or closed. Might be able to set it part way, but I just can't tell by the feel of the control.
> 
> The cat on mine has tons of flow restriction, as much as a mostly closed SP damper I would imagine. It's new but might be a little dirty.
> 
> Never really understood these dampers, unless they are just there to starve out chimney fires.
> 
> Had a bad experience with a flue damper in a fireplace once...snapped shut accidently. House full of smoke.
> 
> Les



FWIW I took my damper off a few yrs ago but may put it back for those very windy days... You don't want to cool your chimney off too much or you'll lose your draft and cause extra backpuffing when your chimney loses its' draw...


Ray


----------



## bsearcey

10-4. I'm just testing out using the damper. The manual seemed to indicate it would give me a better longer burn. I didn't notice any backpuffing yesterday, but thanks for the heads up. According to the manual, even with the damper shut all the say it still has 30% of the full open area. There are holes in the damper. So I'm not completely taking away the draw just limiting it. I'll play around with it some more. If it doesn't work for me then I'll just leave it open like I had it before.


----------



## LesW

> According to the manual, even with the damper shut all the say it still has 30% of the full open area. There are holes in the damper. So I'm not completely taking away the draw just limiting it. I'll play around with it some more.



Really?

That explains a lot...i'll try playing with it as well.

If I could double my reload time I would half the stuff I have to carry in...and I don't need the excercise!

Les


----------



## raybonz

LesW said:


> Really?
> 
> That explains a lot...i'll try playing with it as well.
> 
> If I could double my reload time I would half the stuff I have to carry in...and I don't need the excercise!
> 
> Les



Les you never did mention what wood you are burning.. Can you please elaborate?

Thanx,
Ray


----------



## LesW

> Les you never did mention what wood you are burning.. Can you please elaborate?



Sure Ray. it's split red oak at a moisture content of 10-15%.

Pretty soon I'll run out of that "good stuff" and have to burn wetter wood...prob 20% + (if I can)

Les


----------



## raybonz

LesW said:


> Sure Ray. it's split red oak at a moisture content of 10-15%.
> 
> Pretty soon I'll run out of that "good stuff" and have to burn wetter wood...prob 20% + (if I can)
> 
> Les



That's a good wood and if your moisture content is that low you should get much longer hotter burns.. Like I said before these stove HATE wet unseasoned wood, I know this from experience! Have I mentioned these stoves hate wet wood ? LOL


Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Les,
IMHO I would suggest mixing some of you wetter wood with the good stuff. It would help mitigate some of the bad associated with the higher moisture content wood i.e. lower initial temps, less dirty smoke up the chimney. That way you get decent burns for more days then having really good burns for a short time and then so so burns after that.


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Any of you guys use the stove pipe damper? The reason I ask is because when I installed my stove (insert installation) I put the damper in the in flue collar on the stove. Until this weekend I've never messed with it and always left it completely open. During burns I would have virtually no smoke coming out of the chimney. This is of course with the cat engaged.
> 
> This weekend after reading this new manual I got. I've started closing the stove pipe damper when I engage the cat. Everything else about my operation is the same as before (getting up to temps and what not), but now I close the SP damper. Well there is all kinds of smoke coming out now. Especially in the first 30 mins of closing everything down. It's dirty smoke too. I know the cat is engaged (glowing), so I don't really understand where the smoke is coming from. Theoretically, by closing the SP damper I'm slowing the draw up my chimney which should allow more smoke to burn of at the cat. It's weird. You guys have any thoughts.


I never use a stove pipe damper. Leave that open and control the fire with the air intakes. I can almost choke the fire dead out by closing both of the them. There is a happy medium between length of burn and fire intensity. Once you obtain that, leave the settings alone until there is a weather change that mandates it.

In warmer weather, your chimney draft will decrease, so more air intake is required for an adequate burn. In colder weather, you can decrease air intake because the chimney draft will pull more air in.

Lately, it's been so cold that I doubt that I have more than a 1/8" gap between the air intake valve and the stove's doors. Regardless, the fire is hot enough to push the thermometer to 1200 F on occasion. I am blessed with a whale of a chimney and live on top of a hill, so all of those factors contibute to a hot fire.

Now get this. Thursday they are talking a wind chill of -40 F in my neck of the woods with 25 mph steady north winds. I assure you that "Jaws" (my stove's nickname) will love that.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> I never use a stove pipe damper. Leave that open and control the fire with the air intakes. I can almost choke the fire dead out by closing both of the them. There is a happy medium between length of burn and fire intensity. Once you obtain that, leave the settings alone until there is a weather change that mandates it.
> 
> In warmer weather, your chimney draft will decrease, so more air intake is required for an adequate burn. In colder weather, you can decrease air intake because the chimney draft will pull more air in.
> 
> Lately, it's been so cold that I doubt that I have more than a 1/8" gap between the air intake valve and the stove's doors. Regardless, the fire is hot enough to push the thermometer to 1200 F on occasion. I am blessed with a whale of a chimney and live on top of a hill, so all of those factors contibute to a hot fire.
> 
> 
> Now get this. Thursday they are talking a wind chill of -40 F in my neck of the woods with 25 mph steady north winds. I assure you that "Jaws" (my stove's nickname) will love that.




That should give one hell of a draft! Gonna be getting colder here as well and my dragon is ready for it!! I agree with your post and I think I touched on this in a previous post.. The only reason I would put the damper back in is to reduce the draft on a very windy cold day otherwise it would always be full open.. Choking a fire will lead to smoldering and creosote build up which is never good...

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> That should give one hell of a draft! Gonna be getting colder here as well and my dragon is ready for it!! I agree with your post and I think I touched on this in a previous post.. The only reason I would put the damper back in is to reduce the draft on a very windy cold day otherwise it would always be full open.. Choking a fire will lead to smoldering and creosote build up which is never good...
> 
> Ray


What amazes me the most this year is that the East (and even Maine) has received a much milder winter than the Midlands. This is the worst winter that Nebraska has ever experienced, and even the old-timers say so. Yes, it has been colder and yes, there may have been worse snowfalls. However, the combination of the two together has never been witnessed by anyone.

Tomorrow another 6" to 8" of snow is expected on top of a 26" packed base. A severe ice storm arrived just before the Christmas blizzard to make things worse. Drifts as high as 10' are everywhere. Then -40 F wind chill is on tap for Thursday. The high temperature for the next three days is not expected to reach zero. Owners of all pets are being told to bring them indoors, irrespective of breed.

Hey guys, if you like to ski, forget high rates elsewhere. Ski Nebraska. I'm also tempted to put a sign in my front yard that says, "*Free Snow*".


----------



## bsearcey

I hear you Doc and Ray about the damper. The only reason why I began fooling with it is because the manual I have for the stove suggested it. By the way Doc, I don't know if you remember me trying to get the manual for my 83/84, but a guy contacted me and he actually had this manual. I've got it in pdf format in case someone else needs it. Anyway it said that it increased the effieciency and burn time. 

I do know that I have a killer draw espcially like you all have mentioned with the weather being cold. For instance tonight I had a good bed of coals and put 3 med sized rounds on. All the dampers were completely shut and the draw was so strong it was still pulling flames up through the damper and into the SS tee. Other times when getting the box up to temp by leaving the dampers open for a bit as soon as I shut down I get this rushing sound at the back of the stove. Scared the crap out of me the first time it happened becuase I thought it was a chimney fire. It sound like a jet engine and was rumbling, but it was just the flames being pulled up through the damper. If I did have a creoste problem that is probably a good way to start a chimney fire though. Anyway since mucking with the stove pipe damper I'm able to stop this from happening by closing at the first signs of this happening. 

From what I've seen so far I'm not that impressed with using it with the cat engaged. It does seem to make the load last longer, but with the amount of smoke I'm seeing I'm not impressed.


----------



## Jason123

*For Les and Bsearcy*

Les,
I have the 224 which is the small stove, it is not a insert it is just a standard stove on legs. I also do not have a fan on it. I get more than enough heat to keep my house (1600 square feet) warm on the cold days. My unit can pump out the heat if I want it to.... I have been using it for 4 years with no issues. I can wake up in the morning with coals left after 7 or 8 hours if I close off all of my air intakes and rely on leakage past the seals. Granted the fire isnt as hot when I do this, but it is the best way to get some heat out of it all night. I have no complaints about my little stove.

I have never had the problems that you have had with my fire going out, in fact I need to keep an eye on it so it dosent get too hot and damage the stove once I engage the cat. I just learned that I have to cut the air intake down considerably once I engage the cat. It makes me wonder if your cat is plugged or your draw isnt enough (even though you said these were both good) because I have never had issues like you have had. I would try using the stove pipe damper when you are getting it going, full open when first starting and close it part way once the fire is going, this gets the unit hotter. Once the unit is hot engage the cat and open the stove pipe damper. this seems to work best for me. 

bsearcy,
I had the same question you had about using the damper on the stove pipe with the cat. I have used it some (left it just a crack open) and I feel like I get more heat and my fire goes longer (hense my 7 to 8 hours and still a bed of coals). I dont get visible smoke in the house, but I might get some fumes. I was going to replace my seals on the cook top and see if that makes it better. But I have left the stove pipe damper partially closed over night and there dosent seem to be any issues. I just keep the air intake knobs basically closed when I do this and she can go a loooong time. 

Some people have a low opinion of these stoves, but mine works like a champ and I think she is beautiful. My only wish is that that my 224 was longer so I could fit in some longer logs, I have to keep my log size small.


----------



## bsearcey

Jason,

Glad to see another 224 user is happy. BTW what year is yours. Do you have the third combustor air control (top left above the side load door)? This is my first year with it and couldn't agree with you more on the performance of the stove, especially since mine was built pre EPA regs. Seems like they were ahead of the game. Yeah having a bigger box would be nice. 

I didn't mean to imply that I'm getting smoke in the house when closing the SP damper. I meant coming out of the chimney. It was just odd that I was getting what appeared dirtier smoke out of the chimney even with the cat engaged. But now instead of closing the SP damper all the way I only close it about half way during secondary combustion. This morning after doing this all I had coming out of the chimney was white vapor which is good. That means it's burning clean. I'm attaching the page from the manual that talks about closing the damper (Step 7). Benefits describe are like you said. Makes sense to me.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> What amazes me the most this year is that the East (and even Maine) has received a much milder winter than the Midlands. This is the worst winter that Nebraska has ever experienced, and even the old-timers say so. Yes, it has been colder and yes, there may have been worse snowfalls. However, the combination of the two together has never been witnessed by anyone.
> 
> Tomorrow another 6" to 8" of snow is expected on top of a 26" packed base. A severe ice storm arrived just before the Christmas blizzard to make things worse. Drifts as high as 10' are everywhere. Then -40 F wind chill is on tap for Thursday. The high temperature for the next three days is not expected to reach zero. Owners of all pets are being told to bring them indoors, irrespective of breed.
> 
> Hey guys, if you like to ski, forget high rates elsewhere. Ski Nebraska. I'm also tempted to put a sign in my front yard that says, "*Free Snow*".



Ed it has been cold here dunno about Maine and the temp has rarely made it to 32 degrees.. So far we have had about 3' of snow here in SE Mass. and that's alot for this area.. Last yr. we got lots of snow and cold temps too.. Sounds like you're getting it even worse than us and I am sure you're loving your stove right about now lol... Funny thing is in a few months we'll be complaining because it's too hot!! What is life without contrast? 

Stay Warm,
Ray


----------



## LesW

> Some people have a low opinion of these stoves, but mine works like a champ and I think she is beautiful. My only wish is that that my 224 was longer so I could fit in some longer logs, I have to keep my log size small.



The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.

Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.

But I do consider it finicky, and I get tired of having to feed it so often. Yes, that will probably improve if I do a seal job. But it's not horribly leaky even as is. The only leak I can detect is one corner of the ash drawer.

Overnight burns are out of the question with my unit.

I have another problem not related to wood stove specifics...it's the house I'm in. It's an old bungalow i'm restoring, and it originally did'nt have a speck of insulation. I've fixed part of it, but have not finished. So parts have good insulation installed but until the whole thing is done the insulation does nothing. It's like a well insulated box...with one side open!

I'm getting pretty tired of this cold. I can't imagine why the old houses here had no insulation. Yes, this is in the south, but in the narrow strip of the blue ridge mountains it gets VERY cold. Sometimes below zero. And horribly windy.

I have owned very old houses up in Chicago, and they were perfectly warm. 
So I don't buy the "they didn't know how back then" argument.

You know what? A little more of this and I may be posting from a laptop in the Bahamas. I've had about enough!

Les


----------



## raybonz

LesW said:


> The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.
> 
> Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.
> 
> But I do consider it finicky, and I get tired of having to feed it so often. Yes, that will probably improve if I do a seal job. But it's not horribly leaky even as is. The only leak I can detect is one corner of the ash drawer.
> 
> Overnight burns are out of the question with my unit.
> 
> I have another problem not related to wood stove specifics...it's the house I'm in. It's an old bungalow i'm restoring, and it originally did'nt have a speck of insulation. I've fixed part of it, but have not finished. So parts have good insulation installed but until the whole thing is done the insulation does nothing. It's like a well insulated box...with one side open!
> 
> I'm getting pretty tired of this cold. I can't imagine why the old houses here had no insulation. Yes, this is in the south, but in the narrow strip of the blue ridge mountains it gets VERY cold. Sometimes below zero. And horribly windy.
> 
> I have owned very old houses up in Chicago, and they were perfectly warm.
> So I don't buy the "they didn't know how back then" argument.
> 
> You know what? A little more of this and I may be posting from a laptop in the Bahamas. I've had about enough!
> 
> Les



Les I find this stove runs much better if you leave the ashbin full all the time.. I leave it full and maybe a 1" or so layer of ash in the bottom of the stove all the time... For whatever reason it runs best this way...

Ray


----------



## LesW

> Les I find this stove runs much better if you leave the ashbin full all the time.. I leave it full and maybe a 1" or so layer of ash in the bottom of the stove all the time... For whatever reason it runs best this way...



Yeah, mine is that way. Plugs up the ash bin door air leak too!

I used to keep it real clean so the air damper in the front door could be used without clogging. I now know that it's to be used for coal only, so no big deal if it's full of ashes.

I think things like that are why we see many saying that these stoves are junk, while others say they work great.

They will put out the heat, but only with the proper procedure and maintenance.

Les


----------



## raybonz

:agree2:


LesW said:


> Yeah, mine is that way. Plugs up the ash bin door air leak too!
> 
> I used to keep it real clean so the air damper in the front door could be used without clogging. I now know that it's to be used for coal only, so no big deal if it's full of ashes.
> 
> I think things like that are why we see many saying that these stoves are junk, while others say they work great.
> 
> They will put out the heat, but only with the proper procedure and maintenance.
> 
> Les



I have been keeping my eyes open for a low mileage spare stove of the same vintage because they last a very long time and rarely need parts... Experience is definitely the best teacher on this and many other stoves! The new stoves seem to run well but people seem to always be fixing them and that gets expensive so much in fact that it may be cheaper to heat with oil or gas! You can pick up these stoves cheaply used on Craigslist etc. and in one instance I saw one for FREE that had never been installed but was rusty from sitting in someones garage! Hell it takes very little paint and effort to fix that!!! Someone got a helluva deal there!

Ray


----------



## Jason123

bsearcey said:


> Jason,
> 
> Glad to see another 224 user is happy. BTW what year is yours. Do you have the third combustor air control (top left above the side load door)?



My unit is a 1988. Yes, I do have the third cumbustor air control on my unit.


----------



## Jason123

LesW said:


> The guy I bought mine from did have a pretty low opinion of it. He said it would burn wood, but generated no heat whatsoever. He also said it wouldn't even light with anything less than bone dry wood. He had no blower though.
> 
> Well, as you have read, I have managed to get 15-2000 BTU out of it. That could heat a small well insulated house I guess.



Les,

Another thing I do sometimes that everyone here will disagree with, is this: I dont engage the cat and I control the fire by the air inlets and the stove pipe damper. I feel that this can put out more heat. When I do that and point a separate fan at the unit/stovepipe, I can get a ton of heat out of it (the seperate fan is key and pointed at the stove pipe). The only downfall is that it burns more wood, and you have to clean your chimney more often... I just cleaned mine today. You can burn less desirable wood easier when you do it this way. It is using the unit like an old school wood stove. I am not advising this technique, but I feel it can kick up the heat at the loss of efficiency. But I am probably crazy.


----------



## Wood Doctor

Jason123 said:


> Les,
> 
> Another thing I do sometimes that everyone here will disagree with, is this: I dont engage the cat and I control the fire by the air inlets and the stove pipe damper. I feel that this can put out more heat. When I do that and point a separate fan at the unit/stovepipe, I can get a ton of heat out of it (the seperate fan is key and pointed at the stove pipe). The only downfall is that it burns more wood, and you have to clean your chimney more often... I just cleaned mine today. You can burn less desirable wood easier when you do it this way. It is using the unit like an old school wood stove. I am not advising this technique, but I feel it can kick up the heat at the loss of efficiency. But I am probably crazy.


Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.

The secondary combustion chamber is a must to use on Federal Airtight stoves, irrespective of cat combustors. That is why I rebuilt the flue collar when it burned out, and made a new exhaust vent in my shop to capture and choke the flow. These two parts work:
(1) flue collar from 1" x 1" angle iron and new bolts:






(2) exhaust vent from 1/4" steel plate to rest on the collar:





The exhaust vent gets red hot, just like the expensive cat combustor does, and the flue gases reach 1200 F by sending them through the secondary combustion chamber. And, it's easy to remove and clean and it will last for years and years.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.
> 
> The secondary combustion chamber is a must to use on Federal Airtight stoves, irrespective of cat combustors. That is why I rebuilt the flue collar when it burned out, and made a new exhaust vent in my shop to capture and choke the flow. These two parts work:
> (1) flue collar from 1" x 1" angle iron and new bolts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2) exhaust vent from 1/4" steel plate to rest on the collar:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The exhaust vent gets red hot, just like the expensive cat combustor does, and the flue gases reach 1200 F by sending them through the secondary combustion chamber. And, it's easy to remove and clean and it will last for years and years.



Interesting Ed how do you know it reaches 1200 degrees? When you go outside do you see smoke coming from your chimney? For me it's a 2-fold thing, reclaiming lost energy from smoke and reducing pollution.. In a traditional secondary burn stove air pipes recirculate the wood gasses for reburn how does yours work? My cats last a very long time so the $100.00 is worth it to me.. Just curious..

Ray


----------



## 046

most interesting thread....


----------



## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> Interesting Ed how do you know it reaches 1200 degrees? When you go outside do you see smoke coming from your chimney? For me it's a 2-fold thing, reclaiming lost energy from smoke and reducing pollution.. In a traditional secondary burn stove air pipes recirculate the wood gasses for reburn how does yours work? My cats last a very long time so the $100.00 is worth it to me.. Just curious..
> 
> Ray


The thermometer mounted right in the secondary combustion chamber reads exactly that. It ranges from 1000 F to 1200 F when running full bore as it is right now. That's the OEM thermometer that came with the stove. It drops into a small hole in the top casting plate. On occasion, it will reach 1300 F.

I seldom see smoke coming from the chimney after I load up and wait a few minutes. Ray, I think the secret is in the almost red hot steel in my case that works about the same as the cat combustor. That temperature is what ignites those flue gases, reburns them in the secondary combustion chamber, and gets rid of the smoke. A cat combustor does the same thing.

I may experiment with another steel plate with more holes but each smaller in diameter. That might simulate the typical cat combustor even more. At some point, however, the small holes become easy to clog with soot and that defeats the purpose. Right now, what I have pictured above seems to work rather well.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> The thermometer mounted right in the secondary combustion chamber reads exactly that. It ranges from 1000 F to 1200 F when running full bore as it is right now. That's the OEM thermometer that came with the stove. It drops into a small hole in the top casting plate. On occasion, it will reach 1300 F.
> 
> I seldom see smoke coming from the chimney after I load up and wait a few minutes. Ray, I think the secret is in the almost red hot steel in my case that works about the same as the cat combustor. That temperature is what ignites those flue gases, reburns them in the secondary combustion chamber, and gets rid of the smoke. A cat combustor does the same thing.
> 
> I may experiment with another steel plate with more holes but each smaller in diameter. That might simulate the typical cat combustor even more. At some point, however, the small holes become easy to clog with soot and that defeats the purpose. Right now, what I have pictured above seems to work rather well.



That's pretty neat Ed and clever too! My stove has the same thermometer setup so I know what you're talking about.. When you say secondary combustion chamber are you talking about the space under the cookplate? I think I have a cast iron plate with holes in it that came with stove for coal burning I suppose that could work?I imagine you must feed in air via the brass knob for the combustor to assist the smoke burn.. Too bad you are so far away as I'd like too this in action..

Good Job,
Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> That's pretty neat Ed and clever too! My stove has the same thermometer setup so I know what you're talking about.. When you say secondary combustion chamber are you talking about the space under the cookplate? I think I have a cast iron plate with holes in it that came with stove for coal burning I suppose that could work?I imagine you must feed in air via the brass knob for the combustor to assist the smoke burn.. Too bad you are so far away as I'd like too this in action..
> 
> Good Job,
> Ray


That's correct on the secondary combustion chamber. It's the space right below the cookplate (and thermometer).

And, yes, the cast iron plate will work. It's designed for coal, but will work with wood with some loss in efficiency. I ran mine for a year or so with that plate in place rather than the cat combustor:




Note that I tried to copy the hole pattern somewhat and the chamfer drillings when I made the new plate with 1/4" steel. I'm not convinced that the deep counter sinks were necessary, and the holes could have remained almost square to the surface of the plate, straight in and out.

The flue collar eventually burned out so that's why I made the angle iron frame, bolted it in, and went rectangular with the replacement plate. With this new collar and "wholey" damper, I may have lost an hour or so in total burn time, but there is absolutely no loss in flue gas temperature. If anything, it may have gone up 100 F. Today the flue gas reached 1400 F with it -8 F outside and a gentle north breeze.

I used the same settings for all three air intakes that I used when the cat combustor was in place. The secondary air valve is open most of the way and the other two I adjust depending on chimney draft. When I hit 1400 F today, I was burning mostly oak and mulberry. I imagine my damper is twice the weight of the round one that the OEM supplied for coal.


----------



## bsearcey

What kind of burn times do you get Ed? I know you have the 288, so I'm sure it holds alot more wood than my 224 does. It seems to me you should be going through the wood like gang busters with your secondary air open all the way the whole time. No wonder you are hitting 1400. What are the outside temps of you stove running? It's just my opinion, but I don't think the steel plate is acting as a catalyst for secondary burn. If you are burning as hot as you say you are (air open all the way) you will get very little smoke with or without a cat. Thats probably why your original plate cracked was because of those temps it was being subjected too. 

When using a cat, temps can get that high on the probe because it is actually igniting the smoke as it passes through the honeycomb structure. The temperature of the smoke before entering the cat is way lower then what is read at the probe. 

From what you've described with your temps at the probe and not using a cat I would imagine your outside stove temps would be in the 1000s, but I know that's not the case. That would be dangerous. I'll have to put the coal plate in somtime and give your method a try and see if I can get the same resluts. It could save me 100 bucks when I need to replace this cat.


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> What kind of burn times do you get Ed? I know you have the 288, so I'm sure it holds alot more wood than my 224 does. It seems to me you should be going through the wood like gang busters with your secondary air open all the way the whole time. No wonder you are hitting 1400. What are the outside temps of you stove running? It's just my opinion, but I don't think the steel plate is acting as a catalyst for secondary burn. If you are burning as hot as you say you are (air open all the way) you will get very little smoke with or without a cat. Thats probably why your original plate cracked was because of those temps it was being subjected too.
> 
> When using a cat, temps can get that high on the probe because it is actually igniting the smoke as it passes through the honeycomb structure. The temperature of the smoke before entering the cat is way lower then what is read at the probe.
> 
> From what you've described with your temps at the probe and not using a cat I would imagine your outside stove temps would be in the 1000s, but I know that's not the case. That would be dangerous. I'll have to put the coal plate in sometime and give your method a try and see if I can get the same resluts. It could save me 100 bucks when I need to replace this cat.


+1. Good discussion. Well, I have a feeling that the perforated steel plate is getting close to red hot whenever the flue gases reach 1400 F like they did yesterday and the day before. The top cover plate is probably about 1200 F. I keep two pots of water boiling on it to add moisture back unto the air. Those were ideal combustion conditions--north wind at 15 mph and -10 F.

The whole sequence of events probably eliminates most creosote build up, especially since the wood I burn has been drying no less than a year. I treat the whole process the same as if the cat combustor was in there instead of the steel plate that I made.

It is true that extreme heat probably cracked the original casting for coal burning that came with the stove. That crack really is not why I changed it out. The flue collar that holds the cat combustor fell apart after 21 years, so when I rebuilt that, I went to work on the new steel plate to replace the casting.

I imagine you are right that I am burning more wood than if the cat combustor were there. However, I collect my own wood as an exercise hobby and that tends not to bother me. As far as cost is concerned, a local welding shop can supply those steel plates for about $10 apiece. Square plates can also be ordered on line. Then I drill the holes out with my drill press. That certainly is more reasonable than $100 for the cat.


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## bsearcey

I've thought about your setup since this discussion started and I was wondering...What if you used two plates instead of one. Seperate the two plate by 1" to 1.5". Spacing could be accomplished with a bolt through the middle of both plates. The bottom plate would have larger holes than the top plate. Maybe you could squeeze out a little more efficiency and any exhaust in a little longer. I know you said that you've thought about doing smaller holes in your single plate, but thought you may have more deposit issues to deal with. My suggestion may have the same problems, but hopefully with more efficient burn. Just a thought.


----------



## Wood Doctor

*That Idea is Intriguing*



bsearcey said:


> I've thought about your setup since this discussion started and I was wondering...What if you used two plates instead of one. Seperate the two plate by 1" to 1.5". Spacing could be accomplished with a bolt through the middle of both plates. The bottom plate would have larger holes than the top plate. Maybe you could squeeze out a little more efficiency and any exhaust in a little longer. I know you said that you've thought about doing smaller holes in your single plate, but thought you may have more deposit issues to deal with. My suggestion may have the same problems, but hopefully with more efficient burn. Just a thought.


Holy cow, Brandon! That's a terrifiic idea. And, I already have a second blank plate that I bought at the same time. All I have to do is not make the assembly not too thick so that it becomes hard to remove. Or I can round off the corners for clearance. I think there are 36 holes in the bottom plate that range from 5/16" dia. toward the center to 3/8" dia. The top plate's holes could range from 3/16" dia. to 1/4" dia. and I imagine at least 50 or 60 holes would be feasible.

The final assembly would be about as thick as the cat combustors. You may be onto something here. I think it's worth a try. I would probably connect the two plates with 4 bolts to ensure dead flatness.

What may have occurred this past fall is that the existing bottom steel plate likely became case hardened and will be almost impossible to drill through and thread. However, I won't know that until I try.

Thanks for "thinking outside the box!"


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## bsearcey

You're more than welcome Doc. I just hope it actually works good. Like I said before this setup would be alot cheaper then a cat. If it works you and I can share the patent. We can call it "The Poor Man's Cat".

I'm not sure what kind of expansion would take place, but it may be helpful to the operation to put a gasket (thinking flat like for glass) around the edge of the top plate to get a good seal.


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> You're more than welcome Doc. I just hope it actually works good. Like I said before this setup would be alot cheaper then a cat. If it works you and I can share the patent. We can call it "The Poor Man's Cat".
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of expansion would take place, but it may be helpful to the operation to put a gasket (thinking flat like for glass) around the edge of the top plate to get a good seal.


Well, I don't think you want a really good seal. Remember that the exhaust gases have to escape. The idea is to (1) burn the smoke a second time, (2) keep even more heat inside the house, and (3) increase overall burn time. That's why Ray asked if I was sending a lot of smoke up the chimney (which I am not). The hot plate as it stands zaps the smoke.

If this idea works, lots of do-it-yourselfers could make their own "Poor Man's Cat", provided they owned a drill press. Frankly, I think the MFGs of the cat combustors want way too much money for them. The off-season sales tend to prove that. What irritated me most about them is how tough they are to clean. Nothing seems to work very easily. I once even put one in the dishwasher when LOML wasn't looking.

On the other hand, if the Poor Man's Cat works, it would be a snap to give it a weekly cleaning. Hold it under a faucet and run warm water on it for a minute, like I do with the single plate now.


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## bsearcey

The gasket is there to ensure that all smoke passes through the PMC. Similar to how standard cats are gasketed. 

I was just kidding about the patenting. I'll get rich some other way . 

I don't even want to start on the cost of cats. I had to replace the cat in my wifes car and it cost like $750 just for the cat. People actually cut them out of cars because they can resale them for so much. I feel pretty fortunate that for my stove the cat only costs $100. I've seen them more than twice as much for other stoves. 

I agree. I haven't had my cat for long, but cleaning is kind of a pain. Especially if you try and do it good. The PMC would be nice and easy. Shoot you could even sand blast it without worrying about damaging it. Can't say that about standard cats.


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## Wood Doctor

Brandon said. "The gasket is there to ensure that all smoke passes through the PMC. Similar to how standard cats are gasketed."
------------------
Interesting. "All" is a powerful word. To ensure that, the PMG would have to seal all over, and technically speaking, it would never be removable and cleanable. Thus it would quickly clog up and require a service technician to come to the house and clean it, or the homeowner would have to figure out how to do it himself, which might be impossible. Or it would have to be replaced entirely. Sounds like the $750 Cat in your car, doesn't it?

So, the best bet for our PMG is to make it both removable and cleanable, and yet do its job to take care of say, 90% of the smoke and retain heat in the stove while doing so? I think that is a workable objective. Thus, I am now drawing up plans for the next steel plate that will fasten above the one I showed here. I think it might increase my single plate's effectiveness by about 50%, I can do it with cheap steel parts that you can buy at the hardware (or TSC) store, and that makes it worth it to me.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Well, I don't think you want a really good seal. Remember that the exhaust gases have to escape. The idea is to (1) burn the smoke a second time, (2) keep even more heat inside the house, and (3) increase overall burn time. That's why Ray asked if I was sending a lot of smoke up the chimney (which I am not). The hot plate as it stands zaps the smoke.
> 
> If this idea works, lots of do-it-yourselfers could make their own "Poor Man's Cat", provided they owned a drill press. Frankly, I think the MFGs of the cat combustors want way too much money for them. The off-season sales tend to prove that. What irritated me most about them is how tough they are to clean. Nothing seems to work very easily. I once even put one in the dishwasher when LOML wasn't looking.
> 
> On the other hand, if the Poor Man's Cat works, it would be a snap to give it a weekly cleaning. Hold it under a faucet and run warm water on it for a minute, like I do with the single plate now.



My cat never gets dirty and I have had only hole plug in the cat.. For cleaning I simply vacuum it with the brush attachment.. Maybe cuz I burn 99% seasoned oak? This cat around 10 yrs old and still performing efficiently.. Cats are costly to make as they are treated with platinum which is very expensive, even more than gold.. The advantage of a cat is it lights off around 600 degrees so it takes less fuel to burn the smoke and reduce creosote... If you run the stove hot like you're doing creosote should not be a problem, plate or no plate.. If I cranked my stove that hot my house would be 90 degrees and my wife would kick me out lol.. In my opinion $100.00 for a cat is a bargain and in my case costs me just $10.00 per yr. and saves me lots of wood plus less hauling, stacking,storing and carting.. One place online sells a new style cat for around $80.00 never tried them so don't know how good they are.. 
If interested here is the link http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/prod...els-Before-1992-6-in-Round-Canned_291634.html 


Ray


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## Jason123

Wood Doctor said:


> Jason, it sounds like your cat is dead (no pun intended.) You have to clean them or they clog up and die. That's why I gave up on them.



Doc,
You might be right, I will have to try your technique. I still get good temperature readings on the probe when using the cat, usually between 800 and 1400 degrees depending on the amount of wood/air I have in it. And the smoke seems to be white and much less than if I am not using the cat. But the technique I use to really crank up the heat, gets more heat in the house. So the cat could be bad.

The cat looks good to me, no cracks or anything. However it could be 20 years old for all I know, since I am not the original owner. Is there a real good way to tell?

I will give your technique a try, and it makes sense. According to the owners manual (pg 19 in the one bsearcey posted) if the smoke gets above 1100 degrees, smoke will burn. The cat starts burning the smoke at 500-600 degrees because of the special metals on it. 

So the cat can get more efficiency at lower temperatures, but if you keep the temperature high, you will still get the same efficiency. At least the way I am thinking about it.

thanks


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## raybonz

*Dropping in to say hello*

Too bad this thread died as it was interesting.. Noticed my fixed center grate (not the shakers) is bowed up and cracked so I need to replace it for about $40.00.. I think I overfired it many moons ago and caused this to happen.. Aside from that it is running well and my seasoned wood supply is down to nothing.. Next years supply is looking good so far and should be ready for Fall 2010! I love burning oak but it takes 2-3 yrs to season but worth the wait!

Ray


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## LesW

Yes, i'm just about out of dry wood too, though I have many cords of unseasoned stuff. Ice storms down here cause the loss of a couple trees a year, and all that goes on the woodpile. But right now it's outside and uncovered. It never dries until I move it in.

What a horrible winter this was. Weather seems to have broken though...dafodils are blooming, and the fescue is greening up. Not that it's warm....had a little snow today. But at least the polar jet stream is retreating up north.

About time!

Les


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## raybonz

LesW said:


> Yes, i'm just about out of dry wood too, though I have many cords of unseasoned stuff. Ice storms down here cause the loss of a couple trees a year, and all that goes on the woodpile. But right now it's outside and uncovered. It never dries until I move it in.
> 
> What a horrible winter this was. Weather seems to have broken though...dafodils are blooming, and the fescue is greening up. Not that it's warm....had a little snow today. But at least the polar jet stream is retreating up north.
> 
> About time!
> 
> Les



Yes the south got all the snow we normally would get and I know how it sucks lol... I don't mind the dry snow as it is easy to move with a snowblower but the heavy wet stuff is a nightmare.. It's heavy windswept rain here until sometime tomorrow.. Thanx for replying!!

Ray


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## bsearcey

Glad to see the Federal Airtight club members made it through the winter.

My fixed grate was like that when I bought the stove ray. In fact it was actually broken in two. I had a neighbor fix it, but it didn't hold. I ordered a new one that was supposed to fit my stove, but alas it must be for a later model than mine. It should be relatively simply for me to add some extentions on it (too short) and that should fix it. 

I ran out of wood at the end of February. Acutally During the whole season I was scrounging. I kind of put the cart before the horse this year and had the stove, but no wood. Once I ran out in Feb I just decided to focus on next year (and year after supply) instead of scrounging for anything to burn now. Mostly I was burning stuff that was standing dead. However, as I'm sure you guys know even the dead stuff has a high moisture content. It does dry faster than green wood though. Just not fast enough. I'm pretty sure burning that stuff is what killed my cat. I know I know ray. The damn thing has begun to crumble. It started in a small area, but has since started to spread. While I was still burning it would still engage, but I'm sure it won't last that long next season. I'll accept it as my first year unprepardness and general newbieness, but nothing over 20% mc for my stove from now on.


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Glad to see the Federal Airtight club members made it through the winter.
> 
> My fixed grate was like that when I bought the stove ray. In fact it was actually broken in two. I had a neighbor fix it, but it didn't hold. I ordered a new one that was supposed to fit my stove, but alas it must be for a later model than mine. It should be relatively simply for me to add some extentions on it (too short) and that should fix it.
> 
> I ran out of wood at the end of February. Acutally During the whole season I was scrounging. I kind of put the cart before the horse this year and had the stove, but no wood. Once I ran out in Feb I just decided to focus on next year (and year after supply) instead of scrounging for anything to burn now. Mostly I was burning stuff that was standing dead. However, as I'm sure you guys know even the dead stuff has a high moisture content. It does dry faster than green wood though. Just not fast enough. I'm pretty sure burning that stuff is what killed my cat. I know I know ray. The damn thing has begun to crumble. It started in a small area, but has since started to spread. While I was still burning it would still engage, but I'm sure it won't last that long next season. I'll accept it as my first year unprepardness and general newbieness, but nothing over 20% mc for my stove from now on.



Yup survived it so far here OK.. Did replace my cat and found this site http://www.inandoutlifestyles.com/coduwostcaco.html has a good price on our cat and free shipping too.. I paid $130.00 + tax at local dealer so $118.00 shipped is a good deal.. Live and learn, people that never make a mistake never do anything.. Once I replace my center fixed grate I should be OK but I am living with it til next fall...

Ray


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## bsearcey

Here is another site with combustors given to me by jakekells. I know you already have one ray, but I'm going to go ahead and post the link for other users. These things are cheap, but I'm not sure about their functionality. Instead of the grid structure they look almost like a sponge. I have my doubts about them as far as keeping clean, but you'll never know until you try. I'm tempted. They do come with a pretty good warranty.

http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/products/consolidated-dutchwest-1


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Here is another site with combustors given to me by jakekells. I know you already have one ray, but I'm going to go ahead and post the link for other users. These things are cheap, but I'm not sure about their functionality. Instead of the grid structure they look almost like a sponge. I have my doubts about them as far as keeping clean, but you'll never know until you try. I'm tempted. They do come with a pretty good warranty.
> 
> http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/products/consolidated-dutchwest-1



Over at **********/forums many have experienced issues with this company.. They did not respond to emails or deliver the product for a very long time etc.. Additionally the cat plugged up easily and being only 1" high difficult to get out.. I know what works and stick with it.. Condars and Applied Ceramics make a good product.. I have used Condars right along with no problems... Check out the forum I listed you will enjoy that forum as well.. This forum is great for woodcutting and hearth is great for wood burning..

Ray

PS: Applied Ceramics warranty appears to be a bit better http://firecatcombustors.com/warranty.htm but are more expensive... Cats rarely fail if used correctly so I never paid much attention to the warranty..


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## bsearcey

10-4. My thoughts exactly about that cat (performance wise). Definitely stay away from that. I'm emailing condar right now about my cat to see if I'm eligible for the warranty replacement. I doubt it since my issues are probably related to thermal shock, but it is worth a try. Thanks for the info, and I'm a member at ********** too. I frequent this site more.


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> 10-4. My thoughts exactly about that cat (performance wise). Definitely stay away from that. I'm emailing condar right now about my cat to see if I'm eligible for the warranty replacement. I doubt it since my issues are probably related to thermal shock, but it is worth a try. Thanks for the info, and I'm a member at ********** too. I frequent this site more.



Condar's warranty is prorated, how old is your cat? I am pretty sure it will be covered.. Only tell them it is crumbling and you should be OK.. At the very least you should get some compensation..

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Condar_Warranty.html

Ray


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## bsearcey

Sent the email. Hopefully they'll help me out. This was my first season with that cat.


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## cralph

Hey guys,i stumbled on your sight today while looking for a manual for my newly aquired FA 264 ccl(R).... sight looks great and full of info, and I look foreward to learning a great deal as a first time woodstove user.

I am TOTALLY green and bare with me if my questions seem elementary but like i said this is my first woodstove and i have no manual so here goes,,,

Ill post some pics to help explain.

ANy idea where this goes?






Is this as it should be? shouldnt there be a thermometer there? i saw some on ebay do they just slip into the hole?





The next 2 pics kinda go together... Am i missing some sort of grate? i only have the 1 piece thats kind of a triangle type shape that just seems to sit on top of the 1 fixed and 2 rotating things on the bottom?









Lastly..... (I promise atleast for now any input on how this looks)





Sorry to hit all at once but im super exited about this and getting it right is my top priority.... ANy help GREATLY appreciated.

Chris


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## raybonz

The blower wheel should be completely covered. The square plate hole is for cat thermometer and the catalytic cumbustor which resides under it. The grates (on floor in 4th pic) are for coal burning only. The piece with the brass nameplate on it is called a hearth plate and is mounted under the front doors. It appears your stove was used as an insert and you can probably add legs to it which are still available along with a heat shield which is mounted under the stove body and provides about 1.5" of airspace to keep the floor cool.. From what I could see your stove looks to be in pretty decent shape.. FYI you can clean the cat with a soft brush and vacuum cleaner..

Good Luck!

Ray


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## bsearcey

First of all welcome cralph and congratulations on taking your first steps toward wood burning. 

Here is a link to a website that breaks down all of the stove pieces. It is technically for my stove 224, but should be the same for yours. If you want just search that site for the 264 and you'll get the breakdown of yours.

http://www.cozycabinstoveandfireplaceparts.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=224CCL

Pic 1:
That is a shelf that is screwed in just under the doors.

Pic 2:
Yes, that is where the cat thermo. goes. You can pick one up from Condar for $20. 

http://www.condar.com/

Pic 3&4:
In pic 3 the grate that is laying down in the bottom does not go there. It actually stands up right just behind the doors. It is part of the coal hopper design for these stoves (they were built to burn coal as well as wood). There should be two smaller solid cast pieces that form the sides. You don't use this in the bottom. The wood sits right on center fixed grate and the two shaker grates.

Pic 5:
That cat looks like it is in good shape. Lucky you. If you find it is not working good or you ruin with your first year of burning like I did  I've found that Condar has the best prices $129.

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/dutchwest_new.html

Overall the stove looks like it is in great shape. You didn't give much history on it and how you aquired it, but I would check all the gaskets (probably just go ahead and replace them). I just tried to load a manual for you, but I think the file size was too big. PM me and I'll get it to you. It is for pre - 90 models and your's looks to fall into that category.

It's funny. I was just thinking the other day when someone would start one of these Federal Airtight threads up because they just got one to start burning with. Some people will say they are crap, but a few of us like them. The air controls take some practice, but it's not rocket surgery. Just pay attention to what you are doing and how the stove reacts and it will burn great. Definitely get another blower for it. Makes a huge difference. 

Best of luck and ask questions.


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## bsearcey

raybonz. What's up. How's your wood seasoning?


----------



## cralph

Hey Ray, thanks for the quick reply! Good copy on all Accts. The blower is just kinda in the background of that pic, I took it off to clean it up a little, and kinda see how it worked. Only question on your reply I have is when you said that grate was for coal only am I to understand that the logs simply siron top of the 2 rocker grates and the fixed grate that's in between them ? There's no kind of grate (like one in a fireplace) to hold the logs in place?

Also I actually have the bottom plate as well as 2 sets if legs that came with it, any advantage one way or another to the 6" vs. The little 2" legs ?

Thanks so much again!

Chris


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## bsearcey

I have the smaller legs on mine, if I used the larger it wouldn't fit in my fireplace opening. Depending on how you use the stove (freestanding, partial insert, full insert) it's up to you. 

Wood sits right on top of the fixed and rocker grates.

BTW what part of VA are you in?


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> raybonz. What's up. How's your wood seasoning?



Hey bsearcey I'm doing great how about you? Been a good summer for seasoning wood here, lots of heat and very little rain.. How about you?

Ray


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## cralph

bsearcey said:


> I have the smaller legs on mine, if I used the larger it wouldn't fit in my fireplace opening. Depending on how you use the stove (freestanding, partial insert, full insert) it's up to you.
> 
> Wood sits right on top of the fixed and rocker grates.
> 
> BTW what part of VA are you in?



I was just getting ready to say man.... We are neighbors. I'm in Chesterfield, kinda Brandermillish right off of 288.

The history on the stove is it was in a log cabin up on the Shenendoa river owned by a hunting buddies dad. When he sold out and moved to Fla. It sat in my Buddha garage for a few years until I decided to start burning wood (or try to anyway) so I traded him a dozen of my handpainted Herters foam bluebill duck decoys.... Long story shirt.... I picked it up for a song.


----------



## raybonz

cralph said:


> Hey Ray, thanks for the quick reply! Good copy on all Accts. The blower is just kinda in the background of that pic, I took it off to clean it up a little, and kinda see how it worked. Only question on your reply I have is when you said that grate was for coal only am I to understand that the logs simply siron top of the 2 rocker grates and the fixed grate that's in between them ? There's no kind of grate (like one in a fireplace) to hold the logs in place?
> 
> Also I actually have the bottom plate as well as 2 sets if legs that came with it, any advantage one way or another to the 6" vs. The little 2" legs ?
> 
> Thanks so much again!
> 
> Chris



Hi Chris,
Yes you're right you simply lay the wood on the 2 rocker grates and fixed center grate.. As for the legs it depends on your situation which legs you use.. The 6" legs are standard and it is what I use.. Be sure to check out the forums at www.********** too.. I never use the front doors on my stove just the side door. This will save lots of mess plus you can load longer logs from the side..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

I've been busy getting my wood supply together. By my last calcs I have around 7 cords split and stacked. Around 2.5 to 3 will be good to go by late October which is when I'll probably start burning. The rest will be for next year. I vowed that after last season scrounging and cutting wood in the snow, and burning unseasoned wood (yes I'm a cat killer) that it would not happen again. Feels good to see all that wood baking in the sun.


----------



## bsearcey

cralph said:


> I was just getting ready to say man.... We are neighbors. I'm in Chesterfield, kinda Brandermillish right off of 288.
> 
> The history on the stove is it was in a log cabin up on the Shenendoa river owned by a hunting buddies dad. When he sold out and moved to Fla. It sat in my Buddha garage for a few years until I decided to start burning wood (or try to anyway) so I traded him a dozen of my handpainted Herters foam bluebill duck decoys.... Long story shirt.... I picked it up for a song.



Holy cow...I'm in Chesterfield down off of Courthouse and 288. Small freaking world. Let me know if you need a hand with anything and I'll be glad to help.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> I've been busy getting my wood supply together. By my last calcs I have around 7 cords split and stacked. Around 2.5 to 3 will be good to go by late October which is when I'll probably start burning. The rest will be for next year. I vowed that after last season scrounging and cutting wood in the snow, and burning unseasoned wood (yes I'm a cat killer) that it would not happen again. Feels good to see all that wood baking in the sun.



Sounds like you and I have about the same amount of wood.. We'll be in good shape this fall  Burning wet wood is a nightmare in any stove plus bad for the chimney and environment...


----------



## cralph

bsearcey said:


> Holy cow...I'm in Chesterfield down off of Courthouse and 288. Small freaking world. Let me know if you need a hand with anything and I'll be glad to help.



Haha..... Me too! I always say Brandermillish cause it seems like that's anybody recognizes but off 288/courthouse/ newbys bridge.... Wifes a teacher at Guardian Christian Academy, kids go to OB Gates...... To cool man..... Small world!


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## bsearcey

10-4. I couldn't believe Condar replaced my cat free of charge. It was definitely my fault. I haven't cleaned the chimney yet. I have a tee connecting my stove to the liner and it has a clean out at the bottom. I pulled it off about a month ago and there was around 1 cup of creosote in it. Hopefully thats a good sign that the chimney is not too gummed up.


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## bsearcey

cralph said:


> Haha..... Me too! I always say Brandermillish cause it seems like that's anybody recognizes but off 288/courthouse/ newbys bridge.... Wifes a teacher at Guardian Christian Academy, kids go to OB Gates...... To cool man..... Small world!



Please don't tell me you live in Newby's Wood. That would be freaky and cool all at the same time. I live off Newby's and Burnett. My wifes a teacher at Gordon Elementary School.


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## Wood Doctor

*Be Prepared*



bsearcey said:


> I've been busy getting my wood supply together. By my last calcs I have around 7 cords split and stacked. Around 2.5 to 3 will be good to go by late October which is when I'll probably start burning. The rest will be for next year. I vowed that after last season scrounging and cutting wood in the snow, and burning unseasoned wood (yes I'm a cat killer) that it would not happen again. Feels good to see all that wood baking in the sun.


Brandon, nice to see you are once again obeying the Boy Scout motto--Be Prepared. Seven dry cords should do it for you. Recall that last year, winter came in early and lasted forever. Some say the wet and cold we had last year is ready for a second round.

I found that the 2-stage cat combustor alternative we designed was too much of a choke, except for really high draft conditions. The single-stage plate I posted here works the best and is the easiest to clean. I hit 1400 F on the temp gauge several times with it last January and February, but generally I try to hold it below 1200 F.

Best news is that the chimney sweep told me that I reduced my ash and creosote build up by 50% compared to 2008-2009, even though I burned two more cords of wood. He likes the hot plate design and the new flue collar I installed. Proof is in the pudding.

This year I have more walnut, mulberry, and ash to burn but less oak. I gathered plenty of elm also because I love a mixture. Stumbled onto some red elm, which is getting rare indeed. Now, if it will just cool down a little and stop raining...


----------



## Wapit

*Yes*

Yes, I have a manual for that stove. Am going to cabin this week and will bring it back if you need some info from it.


----------



## Cro

*newbie*

Well hello lads,
I may be the first girl joining the stove chat but I have to say I have just spent most of today reading all of this thread {including printing off the 24 page PDF} and thanks to all of you wonderful people we now have a working stove ! wooo-hoooo !

I also was happy to see {since so many people seem to have found they are neighbors, sorta} that Ray, you and I are neighbors too, since you are in Carver and I'm in Plymouth. Hi there neighbor 

Here is the story. 
Anyway we bought our house in 2006 and one of my criteria was a real fireplace. I got three ! Two are the regular sort and then there was a stove in the kitchen chimney place. It's a 264, from 1983 {having read here all day I know I don't need to elaborate!} When we purchased the house it had not been used for several years. We had a lot of water drop-down and the pipes were totally rusted. The stove itself hadn't even been cleaned out, it was in poor shape - at least cosmetically. We had other things that needed to be done in the house though so for the past four years, it had just sat there. This winter I was determined to get it going. 

I started a clean-out this morning and then my husband and father {with me doing the research and they doing the grunt work} removed the pipes from the chimney, and took all removable parts off, cleaned out the whole thing, went and got new pipes and cement and rope and whatnot and after a whole day of back and forth and hard slog, we lit a fire. Damn does it give off heat ! I'm thrilled. We had a lot of smoke at first but then it mostly abated {we were expecting it since the whole thing had not be used in so long, took a while to get the draft going and it's a really rainy night here}. Then as she warmed up it got very smokey again and we were trying to figure out what was going on and we think the previous owners may have painted the exterior with something other than stove paint {or actually we think maybe put oil on it to make it shiny} and it was burning off {we were getting smoke all over and even on the right, the sealed side with no openings and you could see the oily-looking stuff on the side - PITA!} So we didn't really keep it going, I'm planning to try to scrub down the outside tomorrow before we light it again.

I just wanted to say HELLO and THANK YOU SO MUCH because now I have a stove to warm up my kitchen {and house by the looks of things!} this winter.

I also have one question. In the firebox we have two grates, they are cylindrical with grate openings and can be manipulated back and forth {to shake down ashes} from the outside left. My question is, should there be three of these ? We have a gap in the center so we think that maybe there should be another. Really the fire will be collapsing into the ash box. 

I'm sorry this was so long-winded. I'm from Ireland actually so I guess I have an in-built gift of the gab! ;o) 

Thanks for bearing with me and thanks again for all the insight, it was invaluable. I'll be posting more as we go I'm sure. I am excited to see how well this stove will perform. I was very impressed with it on the first try.

Goodnight all !
Caroline


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## bsearcey

Hi Croi. Congrats and glad you've found our post and rants helpful.

I doubt the stove has had oil on put on it, probably a stove polish. I would just leave it there, continue to burn and the smoke and smell should go away soon. It it is bothering you guys and causing headaches etc., just open some windows and vent. JMO. 

As far as the grates go, it sounds like you are missing the center fixed grate.

http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/fixed-grate-consolidated-dutchwest1

Above is a link to the grate that will probably work for your stove. To be honest you might be in my same situation with parts. If your stove is truly from 83 (should not have a third air control for the cat. combustor), I'm finding that the parts available are more from the late 80 early 90 models. And there are slight differences. I'm having to get a friend to add extensions to a fixed grate for my stove as I type. Anyway keep us posted.


----------



## Wood Doctor

Caroline, another alternative for that missing center section is to buy a 1/4" or 5/16" thick steel plate from a welding shop that reaches all the way across and bolt it at the ends with 1/4" machine screws. Make it wide enough to leave just a little gap so that the shaker grates on each side can rotate to drop the ashes.

That center section really gets hot and eventually it can burn out. Your stove at one time may have been used quite a bit. My 288 is 23 years old, has burned well over 100 cords of wood, and the grate is till intact. However, it may not be long for this world, so I am prepared.

In addition, I already replaced the plate on the inside back of the stove by bolting in a 12" wide steel plate that runs the full length, and that works like a charm. The original burned out five years ago.


----------



## Cro

*thanks !*

Hello again lads
Well, I'm sitting here in a t-shirt, the house is like a sauna ! {this from a girl who is permanently cold too}. This stove is amazing and we haven't even got it up to cat heat yet. 

Thanks so much B for the black swan link. Thanks Dr. Ed for the steel plate advice too. 

We will have to do one or the other, maybe I'll message Ray to see if he knows any places around here to get a plate made. I found a good diagram of the 264 on the Black Swan site and I've decided that the front grate we have is not original {it actually looked odd to me, it's higher than it should be with a solid piece blocking some of the lower glass window}. We also don't appear to have right and left side grates {they look like flaps in the diagram}. Now that you mentioned the back panel, I'll have to check that too. It's still cookin' though ! 

Not too cold here yet but I may have my Mum and Dad her for Christmas {first time ever!} and it's not nearly as cold at home as it gets here so I want to be able to keep a really warm house for them. With that in mind we are planning to save the wood for the open fireplace in the sitting room and burn coal in the stove in the kitchen so I need to make sure we have it together correctly.

Thanks again though. I really do appreciate all the insight. 
C


----------



## bsearcey

Croi,

If you can, get a picture of your setup and post. Some of your descriptions seem a little odd and I can't get a good mental image of what you are talking about. For burning coal you will need three additional pieces to make a "hopper" to put the coal in. One goes across the front (which blocks about half of the viewing window) and two smaller ones go on each side creating a bin/hopper to hold the coal in. Anyway give us some pics of what you got and hopefully we can figure it out.


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Parts are Scarce*

You mean this one?

http://www.blackswanhome.com/cdw-fa264ccl.html

Beware. Black Swan only has a limited stock. Most of those parts can't be found anywhere anymore. Also, I forgot to mention that the baffle and flue collar also burned out on my 288 about 5 years ago. I replaced them as shown earlier on this thread with my own shop creations. That has rendered the cat combustor unnecessary.

Note that this stove demands a cat combustor or something like what I designed or you will send gobs of heat up the chimney. Looks like the Pics got moved somehow. Here are my two inventions:






This 1/4" thick steel plate drops in and replaces the cat combustor:


----------



## bsearcey

Croí said:


> {it actually looked odd to me, it's higher than it should be with a solid piece blocking some of the lower glass window}. We also don't appear to have right and left side grates {they look like flaps in the diagram}.



After reading a little more, the front grate you talk about is probably correct for your stove. It is part of the hopper setup for burning coal. You don't really need it for burning wood, but some people use it if you want to leave the front doors open. Helps keep the wood in the stove. On the 264 diagram from Black Swan the coal hopper setup is #10 (front grate), 12 & 13 (side grates).

Others may correct me, but when you burn wood in the stove you don't use these extra grates. At least I don't. It'd be a PITA to load wood with all those semi upright grates in the way. They are only for burning coal. The manual you have should describe that. Since most of us use the side feed door for loading and don't burn with the front doors open, we don't use the front grate (unless the center fixed grate is broken, then it becomes an impromptu grate for the bottom of the stove).

These stoves are a labor of love. Sometimes more labor than love, but it's kind of fun figuring out the quirks and the work arounds.


----------



## Cro

*update and more questions !*

Hello again lads {sorry I don't know everyone's first names yet}.

Well, we were in Maine and New Hampshire end of last week so we had a hiatus from the stove adventures. )
I ordered the center grate and the side grates and they arrived today. I am attaching a few photos. 
The first photo is the front grate which we took out while burning wood, I think you are correct that this is the right one because it says to have a six inch bed of coal when burning coal.
The second one is the new center grate with the side grate. Do we have these in correctly ?
My husband thinks the sides fit better with the center grate removed and he seems to think the center grate should fit into the notches that they shaker grates fit into but I think it just rests on top {as in picture}. I realize that the side grates don't sit on the floor of the stove but rest on the lip of the center grate, but I think this is okay .... is there a different center grate for coal ? 

Please excuse the bad condition of the outside, I must get some paint for it before the holidays.

Just posted this and it's showing the attachments to open in another window, sorry about that, I don't know how to get them to show here. Thanks !

Also, do any of you have those doorway corner fans to circulate the air ? I was thinking of getting one {or two} as the stove is in the far side of the kitchen {which is about 25 ft in length so I want to pull the air towards the rest of the house}. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks !!


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## Wood Doctor

*Posting a Pic*

Caroline said, "Just posted this and it's showing the attachments to open in another window, sorry about that, I don't know how to get them to show here. Thanks !"
------------------
Use the Insert Image Icon (looks like a post card with a pair of pyramids) or in my case I use Photobucket and simply copy the Pic's IMG text to the post, such as this one:





Pardon my using Martina McBride for an example, but she's a doll.


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## bsearcey

Croí said:


> Hello again lads {sorry I don't know everyone's first names yet}.
> 
> Well, we were in Maine and New Hampshire end of last week so we had a hiatus from the stove adventures. )
> I ordered the center grate and the side grates and they arrived today. I am attaching a few photos.
> The first photo is the front grate which we took out while burning wood, I think you are correct that this is the right one because it says to have a six inch bed of coal when burning coal.
> The second one is the new center grate with the side grate. Do we have these in correctly ?
> My husband thinks the sides fit better with the center grate removed and he seems to think the center grate should fit into the notches that they shaker grates fit into but I think it just rests on top {as in picture}. I realize that the side grates don't sit on the floor of the stove but rest on the lip of the center grate, but I think this is okay .... is there a different center grate for coal ?
> 
> Please excuse the bad condition of the outside, I must get some paint for it before the holidays.
> 
> Just posted this and it's showing the attachments to open in another window, sorry about that, I don't know how to get them to show here. Thanks !
> 
> Also, do any of you have those doorway corner fans to circulate the air ? I was thinking of getting one {or two} as the stove is in the far side of the kitchen {which is about 25 ft in length so I want to pull the air towards the rest of the house}. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks !!



Croi,

That should be the right fixed (center) grate for your stove, however your husband is right (if I'm reading your placement description corrrect). See how the shaker grates are under the bottom of the stove, kind of between two plates? The fixed grate is also installed this way. Just under where you have the fixed grate resting you'll see the opening that the edges of the grate rest on. You have to lift the bottom of the stove. In order to do this you will have to remove the back and side fire plates. That will allow you lift the bottom of the stove up. It is really not that difficult. I think it is 4 or 5 bolts to get the fire plates off. The the bottom (I usually lift from the back and pull forward. The front edge of the bottom will stay in place. This will give you plenty of room to work. You will get dirty. Also that side plate you show in your picture with the fixed grate is only needed when burning coal. Not needed when burning wood.

Keep us posted.


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## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Croi,
> 
> That should be the right fixed (center) grate for your stove, however your husband if right (if I'm reading your placement description corrrect). See how the shaker grates are under the bottom of the stove? The fixed grate is also installed this way. You have to lift the bottom of the stove. In order to do this you will have to remove the back and side fire plates. That will allow you lift the bottom of the stove up. It is really not that difficult. I think it is 4 or 5 bolts to get the fire plates off. The bottom (I usually lift from the back and pull forward. The front edge of the bottom will stay in place. This will give you plenty of room to work. You will get dirty.


Brandon, if this posted Pic and your suggestions are correct, then the Federal Airtight 264 CCL is really different form my 288 CCL. Hard to believe that is true but apparently it is.

How could any grate be "under the bottom of a stove"? The only thing I have under the bottom of my Federal Airtight is the ash pan. The pivoting grates allow you to dump ashes into the ash pan. Right?


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## Cro

*thanks !*

Brandon, thanks a million for that info, we'll give it a whirl ! {btw, where I come from at home there is a mountain called Brandon, http://www.walkinghikingireland.com/tours/shortbreak_brandon.htm }

I will definitely keep you posted. Not sure how the bolts will go on ours since it's been so long idle. Peter will be happy he was right ! 

Dr. Ed, you are entirely forgiven for your blatant adoration of Martina, she's one gorgeous lady.


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## Cro

I hope you will be around tomorrow because I know he's going to want to get stuck into this right away. I'm sure we'll have more questions. )


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## bsearcey

Wood Doctor said:


> Brandon, if this posted Pic and your suggestions are correct, then the Federal Airtight 264 CCL is really different form my 288 CCL. Hard to believe that is true but apparently it is.
> 
> How could any grate be "under the bottom of a stove"? The only thing I have under the bottom of my Federal Airtight is the ash pan. The pivoting grates allow you to dump ashes into the ash pan. Right?



Doc. Sometimes it's hard to put into words. Take a look at this picture.


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## Cro

Okay, we found the plates, Brandon you are spot on ... four bolts. We are hoping they are not rusted in place, he is going to have a stab at removing them today, so I'll let ye know how it goes.


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## bsearcey

Croí said:


> Okay, we found the plates, Brandon you are spot on ... four bolts. We are hoping they are not rusted in place, he is going to have a stab at removing them today, so I'll let ye know how it goes.



I doubt you'll have any trouble. 

Get a shop vac while you're in there and vaccum out the ash that has accumulated in the bottom (under Bottom 1 as shown in the pic). It will make putting things back into place easier.

Good luck.


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## Cro

Brandon
Unfortunately, it's a no-go. He got the plates off, just one bolt broke but the grate doesn't fit. It's too wide by about a half inch. I am waiting for a call-back from Black Swan but I think I've already solved the puzzle. On the site it lists this grate for the 264 but on the invoice it says '1988- 1990' and ours is 1983. Obviously they must have changed it in the five years. The opening is 11.5'' but the grate is 12''. If they don't have a smaller one and we can't get this one cut down, we'll probably just let it sit on the upper lip of the plate, it'll leave a gap under the side grates but it will still be better than a big gap in the middle !

I'll be back.


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## Cro

Alright, so maybe I can add some new information to this thread. 
I just got off the phone with a very nice and knowledgeable fellow called Jeremy at Black Swan. It turns out that at one time Consolidated Dutchwest manufactured some of their stoves in Taiwan and on the plate on the back it says 'Dutchwest India Ltd' and of course ours is this one and they don't make parts for these anymore and many of the parts available don't fit by just the smallest margin. So even if you find parts for the Federal Airtight 264CCL, if yours says Dutchwest India on the back, these parts likely won't fit. Having said that the side grate parts do fit and I told him this. He said they are going to probably add this information to the website. 

We are going to keep the grate and try to get it cut down. Whichever one of you wrote that these stoves are more labor than love, got it right ! Though I am still delighted with it and have no intention of giving up.

Thanks again for all the great information. Drinks on us if ye ever visit Plymouth ! 
Caroline

p.s. Croí is my nickname since forever, it means ''heart'' in Irish. Either is grand though so whichever ye use is fine.


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## bsearcey

I'm sure you can get it to work. Just take it to a metal shop and tell them what you need. Or just have them fab something up for you to the right dimensions. I don't think the design of the grate is all that important. You just need something in that center location that takes up enough space to keep larger coals from falling into your ash tray, put allowing the ash to pass thorough. Maybe just a flat piece of 1/4" plate steel with some holes drilled, center, running the length, about 1 inch apart? You may have to replace it more often from the heat then you would cast iron, but I'm sure it would be cheap to make so have 5 made at once and change as needed. Doc's good with the fabricating, I'm sure he'll chime in.

As far as what you keep referring to as the "side grates", you don't need them for wood burning. I know you mentioned something about burning coal in one of your earlier posts, but if you're burning wood in that stove, don't use any of those upright pieces. This will drastically limit the amount and size of wood you can put in the stove. The side two and that front one is only for coal burning. 

Best of luck,
Brandon


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## ngzcaz

Kind of late getting in on this thread but I also have a 264. Bought it new in 1987 for over $1,000 with the blower motor and tax. Its saved me many times that amount over the years. I still have the original cat on it and it still shows over 1,000 degrees. It certainly shouldn't be working after all this time but I can't explain why it still goes well over 1,000 degrees. I didn't have time to go over all of this thread but here is what I encountered over the years.

Never replaced the rope gasket, still in great shape.
Blower motor a must for heat distribution.
Chimney cleaning done yearly w/almost nothing in the cleanout.
Glass doors will smoke up with a slow fire.
Glass will clean up with a hot fire.
You can take out the cat and insert a perforated heavy steel plate.
I was told this was for coal burning since it was supposed to be a dual unit.

Important : this stove has caulk all over the place where the heat comes out of the 2 top wire mesh. This can leak over the years. Test your stove by smothering a small fire and seeing where/if smoke comes out of your stove. There are other areas that can leak as well. The stove can be taken apart and recaulked if you have a mind to.

Other than that, it has been a troublefree unit. I would suggest gradually increasing your fire when cold. It appears these are cast iron and can crack if heated quickly over the years.

I apologize if these points were already covered.


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## bsearcey

To ngzcaz.

Man that's an incredible run with your cat, from everything I've read about the longevity of them. You must have a good supply of seasoned wood. Another FA user, Raybonz, has had similar cat luck. Seasoned wood is one of his mantras. This is only my second year with the stove. My first year was a definite learning experience. I ended up cracking the cat burning unseasoned wood. This year my wood is perfectly seasoned and my cat looks great (still has the whitish ceramic look to it) after almost a month of burning.

I've been tempted to try and totally dismantle my stove and put it back together. I want to do this just to make sure all the seams are good and sealed. When I bought my stove, I have no doubt with the transport some of that 26 year old caulk probably did crack. I was able to replace some when I was first getting my stove in working condition, but I think it is due for a full work over. Maybe after this burn season is over.

Thanks for posting.


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## Free Heat

I know I've looked before but only just found this forum tonight.
I moved into this house 20 years ago with an old Federal Airtite installed as an insert. I have had it out to do some maintenance My ex used to abuse it terably with way to big and hot fires but never could id it beyond the brass Federal Airtite plate in the "sill" It's little more than a cast iron box it does have the tabs inside to hang a long lost grate it is made to be a free standing stove as well 
It looks much like this one which is the closest pic I could find
http://www.pennwoodhomeandhearth.com/UsedEquipment/UsedEquip.html
It's about half way down on the right.
It does not have the box underneath, has solid doors no glass that have sliding brass plates that have vertical holes that cover matching holes in the cast iron doors and a simple rod attached to a damper in the flue for air control. 
I plan to pull it again to service it after this season It's time and may have some stupid questions for you all


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## bsearcey

Hi FreeHeat.

Glad you found us. Give us a picture of your stove. Sounds like an unusual design. I never ran across any variations like that when I was researching my stove.


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## Wood Doctor

Brandon, you have to wonder what caused the lower plate and grates of Caroline's 264 to burn out like that. I've examined my 288 (circa 1987) AirTight's firebox bottom several times and have noticed practically no burn wear. I average 7 cords of wood a year and the only firebox burn out I had was the back plate and the collar assembly that once surrounded the cat combustor. I replaced all that as shown in previous pic on this thread.

Also, the glass plates in the doors are held in place with rather thin steel retainers that eventually burned out. Once again, I fabricated new ones in my shop using 1/2" angle iron and they are once again secure. Even those originals lasted 22 years.

The way these Federal stoves are designed, the steel internal parts take the brunt of the heat and wear. The cast iron that surrounds the steel parts will likely last forever.


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## Cro

HAPPY THANKSGIVING LADS ! 
More stove-talk after the holidays, we got the grate cut down and it fits like a charm now, burning coal this minute {supposed to get very cold here in the next few days} and it's going great. We're test running the coal option. 

I took pics but will get them up in a few days.

Have a fabulous holiday !


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## geoxman

Croi,
Are you using the steel plate in place of the cat for your coal and are you getting secondary combustion with it? I have a stove that the cat is shot and I just might give the steel plate a shot since it also worked for wood doctor. My stove is a VC defiant encore circa 1986. It has been a great stove for the 24 years I have owned it but I am tired of replacing the cat every 3-4 years. I burn seasoned wood and I go 24/7 but I have never had one last more than 4 years. ngzcaz that is amazing on your cat!


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## Justintoxicated

*Great Thread!*

Well I guess I'm a little late to join the discussion, but this last year I purchased my first home and although I'm in California, it's getting a bit cold so I finally got around to checking out out Federal Airtight Stove. After lots of research and contorting my body to get to the back of the stove I found the model number FA264CCL.

I quick inspection and theres lots of damages.

1) No center grate in the bottom
2) Combustor is starting to crumble
3) Back Grate has a huge hole burned through the center of it
4) Air Pipes are melted away / decintegrated, I guess they would still function though?
5) Front doors are not glass but metal? The frame that holds them in place is deteriorating or maybe the metal inserts are jsut botled to the door and are deteriorating (I can't remember). One of the bolts appears to be broken off in the door that holds them in palce.
6) The square part of the front right door latch is busted off the front door so I cannot open the front doors (Maybe if I can take the nut off the back latch behind the front door?
7) Square Baffel under the combustor is split in 2 and no longer in place.
8) Temperature Gauge is missing (metal coil is still in place though)

Crazy enough, the stove still works and warms up the entire house nicely. I think the combustor is still working somewhat too, but I'm not sure I should be using the stove in it's current condition, especially with the damaged back grate?

The parts from black swan are going to add up to about $600. I jsut ordered the Condor Combustor (SteelCat version and temp guage for $200).

The last people using it just put a large steel plate in the center, but I was thinking of drilling some holes in it or buying the center grate from black swan? The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives? Is it even worth repairing? It looks like it is built like a tank and would help with our energy bills. We are on Propane so running the furnace is expensive.

We don't have the blower, but I found a box fan blowing on low facing towards the stove seems to work well.

Thanks for any advice in advance! Oh and thanks for posting the general manual! Thats a life saver


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## ngzcaz

Its been a long time since I bought this stove but if I recall the steel plate is for burning coal. The cat is for burning wood. I am speaking of the piece that the cat and steel circular plate interchange with each other. Also, there are heavy duty cast or steel side plates that are strongly recommeded when burning coal. Naturally, a CO2 detector is a must. I can dig out the original literature if you need info.

Good luck. 

opcorn:


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## Wood Doctor

*Buy a steel plate.*

"The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives?"
----------------
Yes. Remove the old one and buy a 1/4" thick steel plate from a welding company for about $30. For the Fed Airtight 288 this plate is about 12" x 24". For the 264, this will be slightly smaller, about 11" x 21". Measure it. You will need to drill 4 holes and bolt it onto place. I made one for the 288, and it works.

The question is, do you know how to measure, drill 4 holes in 1/4" thick steel, and use a wrench to bolt the plate into position?


----------



## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> "The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives?"
> ----------------
> Yes. Remove the old one and buy a 1/4" thick steel plate from a welding company for about $30. For the Fed Airtight 288 this plate is about 12" x 24". For the 264, this will be slightly smaller, about 11" x 21". Measure it. You will need to drill 4 holes and bolt it onto place. I made one for the 288, and it works.
> 
> The question is, do you know how to measure, drill 4 holes in 1/4" thick steel, and use a wrench to bolt the plate into position?



lol ! ok, thats exactly what I was thinking only I think it's only 2 holes for the 264 backplate. I just figured there must be something special about the $200 piece from blackswan, maybe it was a special type of steel or shape or something, after all, it's $200 for a piece of metal, I just don't get it. The combustor was expensive enough! I think it will be worth fixing up now. Too bad I didn't do this before the winter. Shouldn't take too long though. Is it ok to have some wood fires in the meantime? I'm thinking it will be a couple weeks before I can get to a welding supply or scrap metal yard.


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## Wood Doctor

Justintoxicated said:


> lol ! ok, thats exactly what I was thinking only I think it's only 2 holes for the 264 backplate. I just figured there must be something special about the $200 piece from blackswan, maybe it was a special type of steel or shape or something, after all, it's $200 for a piece of metal, I just don't get it. The combustor was expensive enough! I think it will be worth fixing up now. Too bad I didn't do this before the winter. Shouldn't take too long though. Is it ok to have some wood fires in the meantime? I'm thinking it will be a couple weeks before I can get to a welding supply or scrap metal yard.


Yes, you can probably get by with two holes, hanging the plate from the top down. Drill the holes about 1/32" larger than the bolt diameter to account for your measurement error.

I would not use scrap metal. Go first class and buy the plate from a decent welding shop for $30 or so. You save $170, but don't tell the welder. He already knows that.


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## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> Yes, you can probably get by with two holes, hanging the plate from the top down. Drill the holes about 1/32" larger than the bolt diameter to account for your measurement error.
> 
> I would not use scrap metal. Go first class and buy the plate from a decent welding shop for $30 or so. You save $170, but don't tell the welder. He already knows that.



Cool, thanks man. I think I'll just order some of the other parts and replace them as I get around to it. (other than replacing the baffle right away). I'm not seeing much advantage to opening the front doors anyways, other than maybe initially getting the fire started which can pretty much be done from the ash tray door or side loading door anyways. Not sure what I will do for the front door inserts. I think it might look funny with one glass and the other metal (if I just repair the broken one). Maybe some washers, and replacing the broken screw would be enough to keep it tight against the front door so that I don't get smoke or leaks. It kinda sucks knowing that I have 3 or 3 screws without heads that are broken off into the stove. Hopefully some channel locks can get them out, otherwise I guess it's a drill press and/or some heilicoils or something.

Now I just need time, and a good supply of wood. (The wood I have was free but alot of it is pretty rotted.)


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## Justintoxicated

I got the back grate out it was a lot harder than I thought it would be! Here Some Pictures. Sorry for the quality, it was dark and I took them with my cellphone. I may replace them with better one later.




FA264CCL Back Grate by Glamisduner, on Flickr
There were squatters living int he house before we bought it, perhaps this is a result from one of their fires? I dunno but this looks even worse now that I pulled it out!




2010-11-30_22-33-20_49 by Glamisduner, on Flickr




FA264CCL Baffle by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Baffle is destroyed and needs to be replaced.




FA264CCL Combustor by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Looks Pretty bad but is it? I don't have any experience with these stoves.




FA264CCL Left Door by Glamisduner, on Flickr
2 of the bolt heads had snapped off already, I removed the third bolt (which also snapped off) because the window/metal piece needed a new gasket. The metal window piece is broken itself where one of the bolts hold it to the door. I'm guessing a washer might be able to fix this though.




2010-11-30_22-29-08_848 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Right Side Door where handle attachment was busted off. It was permanently stuck closed. I tried to grab the latch mechanism from the inside, and it busted off on that side as well. So the threaded part is stuck in the door.  The other side of it looks similar to the left door, but I didn't bother to remove the bolts because I know they will just snap off. Not sure how I could re-gasket this without removing the metal window piece. 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is my project doomed? I feel terrible for taking this apart because now that the latch is actually busted off the end of the door. There is no way to use this stove. At least it worked before I took it apart...

Give up now? Get a new Stove (I won't have any funds in the foreseeable future though). Luckily I still have the furnace, although its quite expensive to heat the whole house with it. At least it's not snowing here I guess.


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## Wood Doctor

Justin, bolts are easy to replace at a hardware store, so snapped heads mean nothing. All you have to do is match up the threads and remove whatever part of the snapped bolt remains. If worse came to worse, you can drill out the bolts an retap the threads.

As for latches, that takes some work in your shop. Generally, you can fabricate metal parts that will work--not easy, but it can be done. Most of your stove looks to be in good shape. See my picture in an earlier post for rebuilding the collar leading into the secondary combustion chamber. That can be rebuilt with a square angle iron frame and bolts. It doesn't have to be round. Mine works perfectly.

Don't try to get all the repairs done at once. Take your time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was this stove. It's been beat up a little, but I wouldn't give up on it yet.


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## bsearcey

HOLY COW!!!!! Man that thing has seen some serious overfiring to have that kind of damage. I think you could fix it, but it won't be easy. 

Doc has already covered how to replace the back fire shield. The cat is no good. I'm sure the squatters were not checking the moisture content of the wood because it looks like thermal damage (I know from personal experience). My main concern and probably what will be the hardest part is getting the rest of the bolt out of the holes and the piece of door latch that is still in the door. I doubt you'll be able to use the tool designed to get stripped screws out. You'll probably have to drill out the hole and re-tap. A drill press would come in handy, but you can probably accomplish it with a hand drill and good carbide tips. 

Have you been able to get the broken baffle below the cat off. If the door bolts broke chances are the bolts holding it in place will too. Getting those out could be a PITA. I suggested you go ahead and take the top off the stove to give you more space to work with. I know on my stove there were 4 or 6 (can't recall) on the underside of the top lip. There was also one bolt on the inside of the access hole for the cat at the top of the stove (front center). Given the condition of the stove once you get the bolts off the top should come off no problem.

Also, with the overfiring that seems to have occured you may have leaks in the seams of the stove. If they are minor you should be OK, but if they are pretty bad then you may still experience overfiring even after all the work is done.


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## Justintoxicated

bsearcey said:


> HOLY COW!!!!! Man that thing has seen some serious overfiring to have that kind of damage. I think you could fix it, but it won't be easy.
> 
> Doc has already covered how to replace the back fire shield. The cat is no good. I'm sure the squatters were not checking the moisture content of the wood because it looks like thermal damage (I know from personal experience). My main concern and probably what will be the hardest part is getting the rest of the bolt out of the holes and the piece of door latch that is still in the door. I doubt you'll be able to use the tool designed to get stripped screws out. You'll probably have to drill out the hole and re-tap. A drill press would come in handy, but you can probably accomplish it with a hand drill and good carbide tips.
> 
> Have you been able to get the broken baffle below the cat off. If the door bolts broke chances are the bolts holding it in place will too. Getting those out could be a PITA. I suggested you go ahead and take the top off the stove to give you more space to work with. I know on my stove there were 4 or 6 (can't recall) on the underside of the top lip. There was also one bolt on the inside of the access hole for the cat at the top of the stove (front center). Given the condition of the stove once you get the bolts off the top should come off no problem.
> 
> Also, with the overfiring that seems to have occured you may have leaks in the seams of the stove. If they are minor you should be OK, but if they are pretty bad then you may still experience overfiring even after all the work is done.


Who knows what the squatters were burning, the thing was filled with trash when I looked in it. It's also probably nearly as old as I am.

But yea, regasketing etc should not be too big of a deal, but drilling out the hold bolts is where I'm going to be stuck. Maybe it's time I buy my own drill press, I have been wanting one for years but had no place to put one. Now I have a place to put one and no money to buy one!

How can I check the seams? I didn't notice anything going on when I had a couple fires in it, in fact even the cat seemed to be working to some degree. Temp fixed the air leaks where the gaskets were with some silencer packing. I suppose the 3 bolts on each door that hole the metal window inserts could be drilled out then even tapped to a larger size if necessary, however I'm not sure how to do with the stuck portion where the latch goes. I can get a new latch from blackswan, but if I drill it out wrong then it isn't going to thread in correctly and will cause a leak. Not sure I trust myself with this portion, I'm only somewhat mechanically inclined and don't have a drill press yet. I wish I could just buy a new right side door, the thing looks like it was busted at one time too as I see it was soldered or welded back on or something.

I'll try to remove the baffle tonight, It might be tricky but I know at least one of the screws was lose already. The holder portion for the combustor seems to still be in reasonable shape. If I can fix this for $500 or $600 then it's probably worth it, but I'd hate to get $600 into it and then still end up buying a new wood stove.


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## bsearcey

I think you could fix it for way less $600. You should be able to do all the drilling with a hand drill. A drill press would just be a bonus. In fact if you are going to be getting a metal shop to do the back heat sheild for you ask them if they could do the doors for you. I bet they could drill them out and re-tap (window bolts and latch hole) for next to nothing. If you decide to do it, just take your time.

Get all this work done and start burning. You will know if you've got air leaks by uncontrollable fires. If that's the case you will basically have to take the whole stove apart and reapply stove cement in all the seam then put back together.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## ngzcaz

I may have posted this earlier. To find a leak, just throw in a crumbled newspaper or two, light it and then smother the fire so it smokes. Obviously close the doors. If smoke comes out of your hot air chambers, there's a problem. Smoke coming from your lower and upper spin dials are OK.


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## bsearcey

Would you not close the bypass and cover the the cat as well?


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## ngzcaz

And your cat may be still working since it was white. If it was black and sooty, toss it.


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## ngzcaz

Yes, close the bypass. The cat can be in or out for a smoke test.


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## Wood Doctor

*Doors could be sealed forever.*

You might look at it this way. The front doors could be sealed forever on this stove and you could still use it as long as the side loading door still works to get wood in. Many stoves (perhaps most) only have a loading door and that is it. The grates drop the ashes into an ash pan below, and many stoves don't even offer that luxury.


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## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> You might look at it this way. The front doors could be sealed forever on this stove and you could still use it as long as the side loading door still works to get wood in. Many stoves (perhaps most) only have a loading door and that is it. The grates drop the ashes into an ash pan below, and many stoves don't even offer that luxury.



yep, actually, my plan was to leave the latch stuck and the front doors stuck closed. But the right side bolt for the rear grate was all screwed up so to get a better grip on it and see what was going on, I had to open the front doors to get to the bolt head easier. And thats when I had to try to turn the latch, which busted off leaving the threaded portion in the door. So now my doors are permanently open instead of permanently closed. I suppose I could have someone tack weld them shut or something, but I'd rather get a new latch in there inn case I need to do maintenance inside again in the future. Another reason to remove them was to get at the bolts holding the window pieces on and to reseal the doors with new gasket material so they would stop leaking in air.


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## Wood Doctor

Justin, I still think you can drill out that center portion that is still imbedded. Start by using a small drill bit (say 1/8") and then work your way up to one that is 1/16" less than the size of the bolt, reaming out as you go. That will leave the threads intact.

Remember that anytime you buy used equipment, you have to be in a position to fix somebody else's problems that they could not fix. That's why they unloaded the equipment.


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## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> Justin, I still think you can drill out that center portion that is still imbedded. Start by using a small drill bit (say 1/8") and then work your way up to one that is 1/16" less than the size of the bolt, reaming out as you go. That will leave the threads intact.
> 
> Remember that anytime you buy used equipment, you have to be in a position to fix somebody else's problems that they could not fix. That's why they unloaded the equipment.



Thanks, I'll give it a shot, some of the bolts are sticking out and will likely be much harder to drill. Luckily the latch one is broken off inside the hole a bit. I didn't buy it used though, just inherited it with the house. I would be more awesome if my home warranty covered this. Resorting this stove will be a good project, I just wish it wasn't winter when tackling it!


I think I might hit the bolts with some penetrating oil like PB Blaster or something and let it soak in for a day before attempting to drill them out.


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## ngzcaz

If the doors are cast iron, you'll need a decent welder. Cast can be really tricky. Some guys claim it can't be welded. It can but...... much easier is to get high temp sealant ( black stuff ) or JB weld it if thats what you want to do. Sealing the doors is by far the cheapest. I'd try to fire it and see where you are. The cat makes the wood last 20 to 30 percent longer and burn much hotter temps in the stove.

I think I saw a post that a cat could be had for around $ 30.00 If that's true, jump on it and tell me where it is. That cat goes for around $ 125.00.


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## bsearcey

I agree that the doors could be permanently sealed, but like you said I would fix them. It does make it easier to access the inside of the stove for maintenance. 

I doubt PB blaster would do you much good now. May have helped before you snapped the heads off :hmm3grin2orange:. Unless there is enough bolt sticking out to get a grip on with pliers, you'd be better off taking a dremel tool and cutting the bolt flush with the hole before drilling out. That is unless you get access to a drill press. Then is shouldn't matter because you have a lot more control of the bit.


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## Justintoxicated

bsearcey said:


> I agree that the doors could be permanently sealed, but like you said I would fix them. It does make it easier to access the inside of the stove for maintenance.
> 
> I doubt PB blaster would do you much good now. May have helped before you snapped the heads off :hmm3grin2orange:. Unless there is enough bolt sticking out to get a grip on with pliers, you'd be better off taking a dremel tool and cutting the bolt flush with the hole before drilling out. That is unless you get access to a drill press. Then is shouldn't matter because you have a lot more control of the bit.



Yea, thats pretty much what I was thinking. I would love to use this project as an excuse to buy a drill press, I just purchased my first real bench vise not too long ago, cause they are the most handy tool ever. I have wanted one for years, and needed one MANY times, but theres no place for such things when renting a room (it was already filled with tools under the bed and in the closet and dresser drawers). Maybe it will have to get added to my Christmas list, if I can wait that long.


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## Justintoxicated

So I picked up a box of cheap kawasaki titanium coated bit at costco and tried to drill out the latch hole. It was allot of work! I only have cordless drills and my Hitachi went through 4 lithium battery charges to drill out the bolt.

Whatever the bolt was made of is super strong and it took a couple hours to drill through it. Unfortunately I was about a millimeter off when done. Actually I'm not what I can call done. What happened was that there was still part of the bolt sticking out the back (a little less than a millimeter thick. I could not really grab it to turn it, but I ended up tapping it inward with a screwdriver and hammer. A chunk of it broke off and I could see the threads in the cast iron. So it appears I ruined the thread on one side of the inner wall of the threaded hole, and on the other side of the wall about 1/2 the length of the hole there is still original bolt material in there.

I can get pics if it would help, but I guess the realistic solution is that I will have to drill the hole out a size larger. However the handle parts are only available for the origional size  So I don't see how this is going to work now.
http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/door-latch-assembly-consolidated-dutchwest

I'm wondering if a Helicoil would work? It would make it a ##### to use the door, that for sure, but it would probably still be possible to unlatch it for maintenance. or is there a simpler fix? I say this because if you have ever used one of these, they really grab the bolt hard, so it would likely be hard to turn.


For the remaining 6 bolts I think I should be able to simply (or not so simply) drill them out and tap for a larger size. Then all I will need is new air tubes, combuster, gasket kit, and that steel plate from a welders shop.

Drill press is now on the TOP of my x-mas list haha. Sure would make thing allot easier! What do you all prefer, bench top or free standing?


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## Justintoxicated

Well, I'm still not sure how to fix the door, I tested putting in the busted part of the latch and having threads on 1/2 the hole actually seemed to be enough to keep the latch in place and still screw it in. I would like to fix it properly though.

I got the baffle off (and yea the screw broke but it needs to be replaced anyways).



2010-12-05-21-36-42-370 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Here are the air tubes, I found these for $60. Should I replace these as well or does this look like it will work well enough?



2010-12-05-21-38-24-218 by Glamisduner, on Flickr


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## bsearcey

Sounds like you're making progress. Maybe for the door latch you can over drill the hole and then insert a piece of steel tube into the drilled out portion, which could then be tapped. I'm sure there are cement/glues that could be used when inserting the steel tubing to make sure it bonds to the cast. Just a thought, have no idea if that could work.

Where are the air tubes from? Are they intentionally staggered? I don't have anything like them on my stove. I know my stove (first generation Federal Airtight) doesn't not have a third air control for the combustor. I've been seriously trying to think of a way to fabricate something so that I can add a air supply directly to the cat. When you start putting things back together could you take some pictures of that (combuster air control, air control tube, air control tubes you show in your pic, and where they are mounted in relation to the cat). The little diagrams I find online, don't give me enough information to work on.

Looking good though.


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## Justintoxicated

bsearcey said:


> Sounds like you're making progress. Maybe for the door latch you can over drill the hole and then insert a piece of steel tube into the drilled out portion, which could then be tapped. I'm sure there are cement/glues that could be used when inserting the steel tubing to make sure it bonds to the cast. Just a thought, have no idea if that could work.
> 
> Where are the air tubes from? Are they intentionally staggered? I don't have anything like them on my stove. I know my stove (first generation Federal Airtight) doesn't not have a third air control for the combustor. I've been seriously trying to think of a way to fabricate something so that I can add a air supply directly to the cat. When you start putting things back together could you take some pictures of that (combuster air control, air control tube, air control tubes you show in your pic, and where they are mounted in relation to the cat). The little diagrams I find online, don't give me enough information to work on.
> 
> Looking good though.



The air tubes are staggered, but probably differently than mine, parts of these ones had inches of 1/2 disintegrated tubes! The air control tubes are located just under the combuster and above the baffle. The control valve is just like all the other air controls, and basically leads to a metal manifold with a rectangular slot in one end where the straight (non disintegrated) portion of the air tubes fit into. The air tubes are mounted by the 2 tabs shown in the picture using the same screws that hold the baffle in place. The staggered end is basically there to help diffuse fresh air to different parts of the combuster, rather than have it all rush in from one side (the left side in my model).

Basically what you would need to do is drill and tap a hole above the loading door and below the upper vents, create a (sheet metal?) box like manifold with a slot in one end, and insert the air tubes into the slot.

I'm not sure how exactly you would go about the conversion I can try to take some more pics though.

What you described in your fix is basically the idea with a heli-coil, but there would be no need for a steel tube, or epoxy. I think that is the route I am going to go, although even the hole with threads on only one side seems to work fine. if only I could get the rest of the bolt out... I think I may wait until I buy a drill press so I can keep the hole centered, this is much to difficult to do with a hand drill now that the hole is already slightly off center. When I have attempted this before I typically find the remains of the bolt will come out, this one is seriously galled up.


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## Myknlin

*Fan forced Federal airtight....HELP!!!*

Hi...Bought an old home in the arizona high desert,it has a Federal Airtight stove inserted into the old fireplace.Works great! For years,no problems...But now the fan motor is giving up the ghost...big time. Have maintained it and cleaned it the last few years,but it's finally stopped running. I called i think to Tennesee,the Mfgr's name on the fan-no longer in existence,...boohoo. Question-does anyone make this fan as a reproduction?It's got a high-low switch. Also want to share that I collect woodstoves,we have a "Dan Patch Oak' in kitchen,made in New Athens,Illinois,and a Sears and Roebuck potbelly,pretty old,made in Chicago,in use in bedroom.Have several in garage,but can't recall brand names right now,two are little "parlor stoves".One is a cook stove with "Surprise" (brand name) on door.Anyway,our F-A is a box type,with heavy plate attachments covering old fireplace inlet...sure don't want to take it out,takes two big guys just to SLIDE IT across floor!!!: Would love to hear from some folks knowledgable of F-A. and its' parts.Myknlin.


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## bsearcey

Yeah that's pretty much what I thought looking at the diagrams on blackswan, but some pictures from the inside of an actual stove would be very helpful.

Thanks.


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## bsearcey

Myknlin said:


> Hi...Bought an old home in the arizona high desert,it has a Federal Airtight stove inserted into the old fireplace.Works great! For years,no problems...But now the fan motor is giving up the ghost...big time. Have maintained it and cleaned it the last few years,but it's finally stopped running. I called i think to Tennesee,the Mfgr's name on the fan-no longer in existence,...boohoo. Question-does anyone make this fan as a reproduction?It's got a high-low switch. Also want to share that I collect woodstoves,we have a "Dan Patch Oak' in kitchen,made in New Athens,Illinois,and a Sears and Roebuck potbelly,pretty old,made in Chicago,in use in bedroom.Have several in garage,but can't recall brand names right now,two are little "parlor stoves".One is a cook stove with "Surprise" (brand name) on door.Anyway,our F-A is a box type,with heavy plate attachments covering old fireplace inlet...sure don't want to take it out,takes two big guys just to SLIDE IT across floor!!!: Would love to hear from some folks knowledgable of F-A. and its' parts.Myknlin.



Hey Myknlin, welcome to the thread. I replaced my original blower. Whatever you do don't buy it from someone selling it specifically for your stove. You'll pay upwards of $200. I got the exact same for for around $70. I can't recall the model #, but I'll post it and where I bought it from later.


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## Wood Doctor

Myknlin said:


> Hi...Bought an old home in the arizona high desert,it has a Federal Airtight stove inserted into the old fireplace.Works great! For years,no problems...But now the fan motor is giving up the ghost...big time. Have maintained it and cleaned it the last few years,but it's finally stopped running. I called i think to Tennesee,the Mfgr's name on the fan-no longer in existence,...boohoo. Question-does anyone make this fan as a reproduction?It's got a high-low switch. Also want to share that I collect woodstoves,we have a "Dan Patch Oak' in kitchen,made in New Athens,Illinois,and a Sears and Roebuck potbelly,pretty old,made in Chicago,in use in bedroom.Have several in garage,but can't recall brand names right now,two are little "parlor stoves".One is a cook stove with "Surprise" (brand name) on door.Anyway,our F-A is a box type,with heavy plate attachments covering old fireplace inlet...sure don't want to take it out,takes two big guys just to SLIDE IT across floor!!!: Would love to hear from some folks knowledgable of F-A. and its' parts.Myknlin.


Don't give up on the fan motor just yet. It may quit and not kick on, but the bearings need lubricating with some light duty oil, such as 5w20 or ATF. In time, these bearings "freeze" up, and all they need is some lube. Give that a try, before you drop big bucks on a new blower. I did just that and mine still works after 23 years.

You will need to remove the motor from the stove and remove the squirrel cage housing to get to the bearings.


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## bsearcey

Definitely give Docs method a try. Apparently the older electric motors are far superior than what is made today. They can withstand more use and abuse because they were built beter. At least this is what I've been told.

The wiring in my motor had dry rotted, and would have cost more to get properly fixed then to order a new motor. So I opted for new. If your motor is too far gone, this is the blower that should work with all FA224, 264, and maybe 288.

Fasco Model #50748-D500
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/fasco/fasco_blower.htm

You don't need to modify or mess with the bolt holes. They match up with the stove exactly. Most importantly it is way cheaper then if you bought one through a retailer that is selling it as a blower for our stoves.

If you haven't been using a blower, be prepared for the noise. I'm not talking airplane propeller, but a constant whirring. I've gotten used to it now and don't even really recognize it unless I think about it. 

Good luck.


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## raybonz

*catalytic bypass rope gasket*

Hello Again!
I noticed I have no rope gasket where my catalytic damper contacts the stove and I need to know if it should seal the entire opening.. I have searched the internet and found no pics or info confirming this.. I have read it takes 3/8" rope gasket I just don't know if it seals the entire area the damper seals against (I suspect it should cover the entire opening).. Thanx for any info!

Ray


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## bsearcey

Ray. I've scratched my head about this one myself. I've looked at the damper plate and where it sits when closed and there does not appear to be a grove that the gasket would sit in. For my stove I just chaulked it up to being an 83 model, which doesn't seem to have alot of the features that stoves build after 86 does. 

I would assume you are right, but would expect there to be a grove that the gasket goes in and the cement. Take a close look and you should be able to tell how much they intend to be gasketed.


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Ray. I've scratched my head about this one myself. I've looked at the damper plate and where it sits when closed and there does not appear to be a grove that the gasket would sit in. For my stove I just chaulked it up to being an 83 model, which doesn't seem to have alot of the features that stoves build after 86 does.
> 
> I would assume you are right, but would expect there to be a grove that the gasket goes in and the cement. Take a close look and you should be able to tell how much they intend to be gasketed.



Thanx for the reply! There is a small groove and I am 99% sure there should be a gasket there.. Hope all is well with you and happy holidays!

Ray


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## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> I got the back grate out it was a lot harder than I thought it would be! Here Some Pictures. Sorry for the quality, it was dark and I took them with my cellphone. I may replace them with better one later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA264CCL Back Grate by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> There were squatters living int he house before we bought it, perhaps this is a result from one of their fires? I dunno but this looks even worse now that I pulled it out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2010-11-30_22-33-20_49 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA264CCL Baffle by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> Baffle is destroyed and needs to be replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA264CCL Combustor by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> Looks Pretty bad but is it? I don't have any experience with these stoves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FA264CCL Left Door by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 2 of the bolt heads had snapped off already, I removed the third bolt (which also snapped off) because the window/metal piece needed a new gasket. The metal window piece is broken itself where one of the bolts hold it to the door. I'm guessing a washer might be able to fix this though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2010-11-30_22-29-08_848 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> Right Side Door where handle attachment was busted off. It was permanently stuck closed. I tried to grab the latch mechanism from the inside, and it busted off on that side as well. So the threaded part is stuck in the door.  The other side of it looks similar to the left door, but I didn't bother to remove the bolts because I know they will just snap off. Not sure how I could re-gasket this without removing the metal window piece.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> So is my project doomed? I feel terrible for taking this apart because now that the latch is actually busted off the end of the door. There is no way to use this stove. At least it worked before I took it apart...
> 
> Give up now? Get a new Stove (I won't have any funds in the foreseeable future though). Luckily I still have the furnace, although its quite expensive to heat the whole house with it. At least it's not snowing here I guess.



All I can say is WOW that's the most severely overfired fa264 I have ever seen! I would be concerned about using it again after that sort of abuse.. Are you still working on it and if so how is the battle going?

Good Luck!

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

raybonz said:


> Thanx for the reply! There is a small groove and I am 99% sure there should be a gasket there.. Hope all is well with you and happy holidays!
> 
> Ray



Same to you. I'm still uncertain about having a gasket there, even though I know the manual talks about it. There are some really hot flames and exhaust going up through that area. I have my doubts whether the gasket/cement would hold for any extended period of time. Also on my stove if I have a good strong fire and draft going the flames can get pulled up through the hole and out into the T at the back of the stove. I can see that gasket getting sucked right off. Anyway, I guess you'll never know until you try.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Same to you. I'm still uncertain about having a gasket there, even though I know the manual talks about it. There are some really hot flames and exhaust going up through that area. I have my doubts whether the gasket/cement would hold for any extended period of time. Also on my stove if I have a good strong fire and draft going the flames can get pulled up through the hole and out into the T at the back of the stove. I can see that gasket getting sucked right off. Anyway, I guess you'll never know until you try.



Will check it out when I am off next week... That stuff can take more heat than you think Brandon.. Most of the heat is at the cat and it rises up and over the damper door ... The manual says it should have it and yours probably should too.. Unburned smoke will create creosote and waste fuel too..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

raybonz said:


> Will check it out when I am off next week... That stuff can take more heat than you think Brandon.. Most of the heat is at the cat and it rises up and over the damper door ... The manual says it should have it and yours probably should too.. Unburned smoke will create creosote and waste fuel too..
> 
> Ray



I completely agree with you, but I really don't think my stove was designed to have a gasket there. I checked out the bypass area when I was working on it last year. I had the top of the stove off, so I had great access to it, but did not see any grove for a gasket. 

Unfortunately I still have not found a manual that goes with my model (84-86) stove. All the manuals I've found (even the manuals that say Pre-90) are all referring to stoves built after 1986. I would be interested if a manual for my stove calls for a gasket there. The other great mystery for my stove is why I don't have a third air supply control for the cat combuster. 

So anybody new to this thread who has a manual for a 1984 - 1986 CDW FA224, 264, or 288 CCL stove I would really appreciate a copy. Best way to tell is if you do not have an cat combuster air control above the side feed door. See the attached image.


----------



## Myknlin

*my Federal Airtight fan motor; bsearcey*

Can't thank you 'nuff!!! The pic you showed of an older F-a,I believe a 1984,looks exactly like mine,ha-ha,so does the rear plate(all broke off!!)About this motor warehouse,Is this also a two-speed? I'm use to the noise,by the way...we did all those other things last few years,oil,clean,etc,etc,but she's not even turning any more-and the bearing end play has increased dramatically,so I'm certain she's pretty shot...anyway,in winter,it gets as low as 20 here,but not for long,with daytime highs up to 70,so wood's the way to go,although we have a 220V regular furnace,hate to pay that power bill...if you Google Mt.Tipton,Az,(Dolan Springs)and look to the north side of the mountain-voila! That's me waving up at the satellite,ha-ha...elevation is 3500 ft,give or take,the south side of the mountain(where the townies are) is way lower elev.,so when the weather channel says a certain temp,we just deduct 6 or 8 degrees...Mike


----------



## bsearcey

Myknlin. Glad to help. The motor is not a two speed/variable speed motor. When I got my blower I had intended on putting a speed control on it, but after asking alot of questions about using one with the motor decided against it. I didn't realize that if you reduce the speed of the fan this will/could cause the motor to overheat causing failure or fire. I even called the manufacturer of the motor and they confirmed that it was not a good idea. They did say that a motor (like the original blower motor) had been constructed better with more copper, etc. allowing them to easily run at variable speeds. The electric motors produced today are not made like that anymore. 

Here's the thread I started about it. None of the guys who replied said it wouldn't work, but like I said the manufacturer and a local electric motor repair shop both strongly cautioned against it. Maybe for liability purposes, especially from the manufacturer, but the repair shop I would think would give me an honest answer. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=121204&highlight=blower


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Myknlin. Glad to help. The motor is not a two speed/variable speed motor. When I got my blower I had intended on putting a speed control on it, but after asking alot of questions about using one with the motor decided against it. I didn't realize that if you reduce the speed of the fan this will/could cause the motor to overheat causing failure or fire. I even called the manufacturer of the motor and they confirmed that it was not a good idea. They did say that a motor (like the original blower motor) had been constructed better with more copper, etc. allowing them to easily run at variable speeds. The electric motors produced today are not made like that anymore.
> 
> Here's the thread I started about it. None of the guys who replied said it wouldn't work, but like I said the manufacturer and a local electric motor repair shop both strongly cautioned against it. Maybe for liability purposes, especially from the manufacturer, but the repair shop I would think would give me an honest answer.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=121204&highlight=blower



Brandon what you can do is restrict the amount of air going into the blower this serves 2 purposes:

1)It reduces the load on the motor by reducing the amount of air it must handle. Trust me this lessens the load, I am a licensed electrician.
2)By reducing the volume of air it quiets the blower down and while it moves less air the air will be hotter because of greater hang time of the air moving through the stove.. 

I just did this on mine using some Gorilla tape as the noise was annoying at times and it helped alot.. Try blocking the air intake with a piece of paper to see what works for you..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Cool Ray. I'll give it a shot. What about wiring up a rheostat to actually control the speed of the fan? Was I wrong about the over heating thing.

Thanks.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Cool Ray. I'll give it a shot. What about wiring up a rheostat to actually control the speed of the fan? Was I wrong about the over heating thing.
> 
> Thanks.



Brandon you would have to use a motor speed control not a rheostat.. I think a ceiling fan speed control would work OK however they also tend to introduce some amount of electrical noise especially with a low budget model.. Try what I mentioned as it is simple and costs virtually nothing.. Reducing the air going into the blower actually reduces the load contrary to what most people think and will not harm the blower motor..These motors do not use the blower to cool themselves and speed control may lessen the life of the motor..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

raybonz said:


> Brandon you would have to use a motor speed control not a rheostat.. I think a ceiling fan speed control would work OK however they also tend to introduce some amount of electrical noise especially with a low budget model.. Try what I mentioned as it is simple and costs virtually nothing.. Reducing the air going into the blower actually reduces the load contrary to what most people think and will not harm the blower motor..These motors do not use the blower to cool themselves and speed control may lessen the life of the motor..
> 
> Ray



Great I'll give it a go. I don't mind the noise, but I agree that slowing the flow will allow the air to warm up more, even though it is pretty hot already.

Another benefit that may happen is the stove doesn't cool down too much either. I've noticed recently (because of discussions on the other forum), that my stove does cool down quite a bit while running the blower. The cooling is pretty pronounced on the side the blower is on. I also think that this also cools down my cat. For instance this morning, I got the stove going, engaged the cat, checked it a few minutes later and the entire cat was glowing. I then turned on the blower and checked the cat a few minutes later and the right side of the cat (side of stove the blower is on) was not glowing on the surface any longer. It had gone dark. It did appear that down in the comb it was still glowing, but not as much as the really lit side. I'm beginning to wonder if it has been causing or partly responsible for some issues I've been having. 

Got any thoughts on that?

Thanks Ray.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Great I'll give it a go. I don't mind the noise, but I agree that slowing the flow will allow the air to warm up more, even though it is pretty hot already.
> 
> Another benefit that may happen is the stove doesn't cool down too much either. I've noticed recently (because of discussions on the other forum), that my stove does cool down quite a bit while running the blower. The cooling is pretty pronounced on the side the blower is on. I also think that this also cools down my cat. For instance this morning, I got the stove going, engaged the cat, checked it a few minutes later and the entire cat was glowing. I then turned on the blower and checked the cat a few minutes later and the right side of the cat (side of stove the blower is on) was not glowing on the surface any longer. It had gone dark. It did appear that down in the comb it was still glowing, but not as much as the really lit side. I'm beginning to wonder if it has been causing or partly responsible for some issues I've been having.
> 
> Got any thoughts on that?
> 
> Thanks Ray.



You're welcome and it could be a contributing factor.. I basically blocked about 1/3 of my air intake and the blower quieted down quite a bit.. I assume you read the info at ********** as I am a regular there same name as here.. Let me know what you find..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

10-4. I'll try it out and see if I notice a difference. I thought you were on hearth, but couldn't remember. I go by nonetheless over there. If you have a minute check out my post over there titled "Crazy/scary draft issue...I think" and give me your thoughts.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> 10-4. I'll try it out and see if I notice a difference. I thought you were on hearth, but couldn't remember. I go by nonetheless over there. If you have a minute check out my post over there titled "Crazy/scary draft issue...I think" and give me your thoughts.



Oh yes I remember that post and I think you were burning too much small stuff.. I have had that happen here and what you need to do is burn larger splits of seasoned hardwood and control your air or you overfire that stove because all the wood tries to burn at the same time.. You can burn smaller splits just do it in small doses.. Leaking gaskets can aggravate the problem so be sure they are OK..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

You think my splits are too small? I'd say the hackberry was averaging 4"x5" pie shaped pieces. All total it was about 7-8 pieces to fill the stove. Seems pretty normal size and load amount given my stove size. 

Anyway I'm pretty much done with that topic. I've started mixing less seasoned (20-25MC) wood in with the hackberry (14-16MC), and have not had anymore problems, but am still seeing the cat become affected by the blower.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> You think my splits are too small? I'd say the hackberry was averaging 4"x5" pie shaped pieces. All total it was about 7-8 pieces to fill the stove. Seems pretty normal size and load amount given my stove size.
> 
> Anyway I'm pretty much done with that topic. I've started mixing less seasoned (20-25MC) wood in with the hackberry (14-16MC), and have not had anymore problems, but am still seeing the cat become affected by the blower.



I have never seen my cat when running and assume it is glowing based on the cat temp.. Do you lift the cooktop to see it? Mine is pretty much out of sight..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Yeah. I engage based on temps, but check the operation by lifting the cook top. The cat is directly underneath, so it is very visible.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Yeah. I engage based on temps, but check the operation by lifting the cook top. The cat is directly underneath, so it is very visible.



I've thought of looking there at some time just never have.. If you can get hold of some high temp ceramic wool and pack it around the cat that may stop the cooling effect.. My new liner is wrapped with the stuff.. If I had some I would try it as the new stove that replaced ours has refractory mat'l around the cat now..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Good suggestion. I actually have alot of Kaowool left over from when I did my install. It will actuall work really well because it is pretty ridged so I can cut out a perfect surround for it. Way to think out of the box Ray!


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Good suggestion. I actually have alot of Kaowool left over from when I did my install. It will actuall work really well because it is pretty ridged so I can cut out a perfect surround for it. Way to think out of the box Ray!



 Please let me know how it works Brandon.. I don't have anything like that around here or I'd try it myself..

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Send me a PM and we'll resolve that. I've got plenty left over.


----------



## bsearcey

Alright. I put some of the insulation around the cat housing. I was able to the the front, left and right side good and insulated. I can't put any around the back because the bypass door, when open, rests against it. Any amount of insulation back there will probably give me problems opening the damper. I can't remember the exact rating of this insulation, but I know it is at least 1200F. I'll post back to see and post my observations.

Thanks again Ray.


----------



## bsearcey

Edit that. The wool is rated at 2600F.


----------



## bsearcey

Well everything seems to be working great. Engaged the cat with probe reading 800. Quickly went to 1200, with the cat fully lit. Turned blower on and just checked it and the cat was still completely lit. 

Before when I turned on the blower the right side (side the blower is mounted on) of the cat would always (since I've been paying attention) go from glowing to dark. About .25 of the cat surface would be affected/cooled. 

Don't know if it is a coincidence, but it is looking promising.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Well everything seems to be working great. Engaged the cat with probe reading 800. Quickly went to 1200, with the cat fully lit. Turned blower on and just checked it and the cat was still completely lit.
> 
> Before when I turned on the blower the right side (side the blower is mounted on) of the cat would always (since I've been paying attention) go from glowing to dark. About .25 of the cat surface would be affected/cooled.
> 
> Don't know if it is a coincidence, but it is looking promising.



Great job Brandon you're a smart guy! Still have a couple more 12 hr. days to work before I can look at this stove plus it is wicked cold here.. Last night got down to 15 (was 69 degrees when I got up both up and downstairs!) and tonight may hit single digits.. Brrrrrr

Ray

Was just thinking if the added insulation works out for you I may take you up on that offer.. Pretty interesting if this works as I think your efficiency will increase due to more complete burning of smoke..


----------



## fonziefire

*Fa 264*

HI All,

New to the site, but I have read alot from all of the members. I want to first thank everyone for being so informative. My question falls in line with all of the posts regarding the Federal Airtight.

I recently purchased a house, and found that I had a very inefficient fireplace setup. With some searching I found a good deal on a Dutchwest Federal Airtight insert. I grew up with a federal airtight, and love the way it looks and outputs heat. Well I noticed that the model I had purchased was an older one. The model number is FA 264CL, instead of the 264CCL that I continually see. The inspection date on the information plate is Sept 1980. I do not have the access port to a cat on top of the stove like most of the pictures show. I am not sure If my model even has a cat. I have two air knobs, one on the side door and one on the clean-out. From my understanding in reading the manual posted here, the knob on the clean-out should only be used when burning coal. 

I plan on burning wood, but I have a few issues. One, I want to be sure that my stove would be ok in its condition without a cat or access to a cat if it does have one. Also, I need to run a liner down my chimney to make the connection. The outlet on the back of the stove is a 8" oval outlet. Some of the installers have told me that it would be a very hard connection to make as they normally run a 6" round liner. Are there any sites that make this 8" to 6" round adapter that will work with an insert stove. I don't know if certain clearance is needed, or if they make the adapter in SS. I found one site that sells a flex adapter to reduce it to 6" round but it seems to be made of aluminum. Would that be ok to use with 6" SS liner?

Sorry for being "green" with the verbiage and or questions. Any help or info that would prevent me from burning my house down would greatly be appreciated.


----------



## bsearcey

Hi fonzie.

First of all welcome and thanks for adding to the growing thread. 

I'm pretty sure you don't have a cat. That is what the extra "C" in the "CCL" stands for. I believe the "CCL" stands for Convection, Combustor, and Left side feed door. So your's is a Convection stove with a Left side feed door. That is if this is a stove like mine, that can be used as an insert or as a free standing unit. 

Anyway, as far as the connection goes. If your stove has an 8" flue collar I would try and go with an 8" liner system. Going smaller my really affect your draft. I have read that it is OK to go up or down in size to a degree, but not real sure of the "rule of thumb" for doing that. Another thing to consider would be the height of your chimney. If it is pretty tall i.e. 25ft, you should have good draft even with a 6 in liner. But because your stove has an 8" outlet I would try and match it.

I also have not seen any adapters for 6" round to 8" ovalized. Getting the liner (6 or 8) ovalized is no big deal. I know in with my install the ovalized liner worked better because of my rectangular flue. The way I connected my stove to the liner was by using a T-connection that was ovalized to connect to the liner and round where it connected to the stove. You're best bet, aside from scouring the internet, is to call up some of your local stove shops or a company like chimney liner depot. This could require something special. That's how I figured out my T-connection.

If at all possible I would use stainless steel for all my connections. Anything else will deteriorate and corrode alot faster. With it being an insert you're not going to be able to monitor this like you would with a freestanding stove, where you can get away with stove pipe from the stove to the liner connection.

So my advice:
Go with a 8 inch ovalized liner.
Connection between line and stove should be made with a SS component.

Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## fonziefire

Thank You bsearcey for the quick reply.

My dilemma is that I plan on using this stove for a short time (couple of years) before I go ahead and upgrade. When I talked with one local installer, they had also mentioned running an 8" oval liner the whole length, but they quoted me at an astronomical cost. When I contacted another installer, they had mentioned having an adapter fabricated to connect to the 6" liner.

A little more information:

It would be a 25' liner. I would also like to have everything in SS as you had mentioned. I would very much like to use the installed liner for any future upgrades. If I have an 8" oval liner, than that would either limit me greatly or be a costly short term deal.

I definitely do not want to create any problems with drafts if I downsize, but that is why I am asking the masses. Im glad to see you have a similar stove, as Im sure you can attest to any problems I could face. I did find this type product:

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Black-Stove-Pipe/Oval-to-Round-Adapter

But not sure if it is what I would use in this application. I would like that to connect to a 6" t adapter with a cleanout, then to the liner. Thoughts?

Again Thank You so much for the help. Again I am very leery of doing things half @$$ed as to not cause major damage.


----------



## Justintoxicated

I feel so left out now, I don't have a fan for mine at all, but plugging in a boxfan and aiming it at the stove seems to work pretty well 

My project is on hold. I have not been able to fix the doors. I gave up on drilling out the holes without a press, whatever they used for the latch bolts are damn hard and the hole is already a little crooked. I haven't had time for any pics while its still daylight (or haven't been thinking about them anyways when I did). Started researching on drill presses and I'm confused as to what I actually need. 

Anyways, just wanted to let everyone know I haven't given up, but I'm certainly not sure what to do next either.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Great I'll give it a go. I don't mind the noise, but I agree that slowing the flow will allow the air to warm up more, even though it is pretty hot already.
> 
> Another benefit that may happen is the stove doesn't cool down too much either. I've noticed recently (because of discussions on the other forum), that my stove does cool down quite a bit while running the blower. The cooling is pretty pronounced on the side the blower is on. I also think that this also cools down my cat. For instance this morning, I got the stove going, engaged the cat, checked it a few minutes later and the entire cat was glowing. I then turned on the blower and checked the cat a few minutes later and the right side of the cat (side of stove the blower is on) was not glowing on the surface any longer. It had gone dark. It did appear that down in the comb it was still glowing, but not as much as the really lit side. I'm beginning to wonder if it has been causing or partly responsible for some issues I've been having.
> 
> Got any thoughts on that?
> 
> Thanks Ray.



Hey Brandon I replaced that missing cat bypass gasket yesterday and had to take the top off the stove so I could take the damper out.. This is the only way you can replace this gasket.. Took around 5 hrs. total but the stove is running well and NO smoke coming from the chimney now  BTW the gasket does seal the entire bypass and took about 2' of 3/8" rope gasket.. 

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Hey Brandon I replaced that missing cat bypass gasket yesterday and had to take the top off the stove so I could take the damper out.. This is the only way you can replace this gasket.. Took around 5 hrs. total but the stove is running well and NO smoke coming from the chimney now  BTW the gasket does seal the entire bypass and took about 2' of 3/8" rope gasket..
> 
> Ray



Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?



One reason is you have to scrape/remove all the old furnace cement then you need to add furnace cement to the top channels of the woodstove. I also removed the cat chamber and baffle then sealed the cat chamber with furnace cement. The flue pipe and collar had to come off and I also removed the cat bypass damper.. The temp gauge is the one above the cat in the polished cook plate all my other temp gauges at this time are magnetic but I just ordered an IR temp scanner to keep them honest.. I spent time looking for any places that may be leaking air into or out of the cat chamber too.. It takes much more force to lock down the cat bypass in the closed position now and I am sure all the smoke must pass through the cat.. Not sure if it took 4 or 5 hrs. total and that includes cleaning up the mess afterward.. 

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Looks good Ray. I know my setup doesn't use a gasket now that I see yours. I really should pop the top off mine again and reseal all the seams. When I first got the stove and had the top off I was in a hurry to get it in, and never did remove all the old cement. 

BTW - My cat seems to holding temps better since I put the insulation around the cat. Not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but I'm not getting the cooling I was noticing before when turning the blower on.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Looks good Ray. I know my setup doesn't use a gasket now that I see yours. I really should pop the top off mine again and reseal all the seams. When I first got the stove and had the top off I was in a hurry to get it in, and never did remove all the old cement.
> 
> BTW - My cat seems to holding temps better since I put the insulation around the cat. Not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but I'm not getting the cooling I was noticing before when turning the blower on.



Brandon I think the insulation will make a difference and the newer stoves made by Dutchwest have it.. I did PM you my address in case it works out and I feel it will.. It took a while to remove all the old furnace cement from both the top and all the mating surfaces but sealing that damper will make a difference in the creosote forming in the pipes... To rebuild this stove all it would take is 2 qts. of furnace cement and some basic hand tools.. I also use Never Seize on all the bolts...

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Federal Airtights are Clean Stoves*

Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:






See any major pollution? Now, here's the same stack 10 minutes later:






Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.


----------



## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.



Thats one bad ass chimney! Makes me feel inadequate with mine lol. Mine needs a good re-pointing too. 

Oh and that makes sense about the top, I guess I will worry about sealing up the combuster chamber once I get the doors fixed and the rest of the furnace sealed up tight. Lucky for me it has not been dropping below 30 at night often and not for very long. In fact we just had record temperatures here in So California last weekend. It nearly got into the high 80's last weekend  But yea, I still want this thing fixed, and I'm still eying drill presses online every day.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Seems like we are spending a lot of time on this thread getting these old Federal Airtight stoves to work. I think it's well worth the effort. The temp in the floor of my house where the stove works has not dropped below 68 F for over 20 years and now rests on 75 F. Take a look at the cleanliness of the stack immediately after I drop in a fresh load of dry wood:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See any major pollution? Now, here's the same stack 10 minutes later:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the secondary combustion chamber has hit 1000 F after 10 minutes, eventualy topping out at 1300 F. I usually reload between four and eight hours later. I rest my case.



Impressive chimney Doc! Makes me wonder what the rest of the house looks like... Hope all is well with you..

Ray


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Why 5 hours to remove the top of the stove and replace the gasket? I may end up doing this soon as well. Your temp gauge is in front?



Sorry I misunderstood the temp gauge question.. Yes I have one in front and one on the right side to monitor stove temps.. It's easy to overfire these stoves especially when it is windy like it is here right now.. Seventeen degrees and 20-25 mph wind brrrrrr ... I loaded up the stove at 10:30 PM and got up at 6PM and it was still 70 up and downstairs.. Raked the coals toward the side door, reloaded and was running catalytic in about 20 mins..

Ray


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Same to you. I'm still uncertain about having a gasket there, even though I know the manual talks about it. There are some really hot flames and exhaust going up through that area. I have my doubts whether the gasket/cement would hold for any extended period of time. Also on my stove if I have a good strong fire and draft going the flames can get pulled up through the hole and out into the T at the back of the stove. I can see that gasket getting sucked right off. Anyway, I guess you'll never know until you try.



Brandon those gaskets can take about 1000 degrees (the rope will never see the cat temp).. The cement that came with the kits works well if you apply it and let the cement sit until tacky then place the rope into the groove.. Make sure you scrape out all the old gasket and cement thoroughly.. FYI the rope gasket was only missing along the edge opposite the hinge side of the damper.. I was surprised the gasket along the hinge side was intact after 22 yrs... I bought the 3/8" rope gasket kit at Lowes for 8 bucks and it includes the cement.. Had enough to seal the side door and the damper...

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Chimney Height*



raybonz said:


> Impressive chimney Doc! Makes me wonder what the rest of the house looks like... Hope all is well with you..
> 
> Ray


Well, I must admit it is the biggest chimney in the neighbothood and that was one of the things that impressed me about the house when I bought it 23 years ago. There are three masonry flues, and the longest one connects to the stove in the walkout basement. The other two go to gas log fireplaces that I seldom use. LOML won't let me burn wood upstairs, so the Federal Airtight only heats about half the house.

I think it's about 37 feet from the stove to the top of the flue, so the chimney sweep gets a workout every year. The draft is rather incredible when you fire a stack that tall, especially since the house is perched on a hill as well. I usually run the stove with the two air intake vents cracked open only 1/8" or so.

There is so little smoke coming out of this chimney most of the time that the neighbors hardly know that I burn wood. The best evidence of it is the stack of logs in the corner of the back yard and me unloading the truck.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Well, I must admit it is the biggest chimney in the neighbothood and that was one of the things that impressed me about the house when I bought it 23 years ago. There are three masonry flues, and the longest one connects to the stove in the walkout basement. The other two go to gas log fireplaces that I seldom use. LOML won't let me burn wood upstairs, so the Federal Airtight only heats about half the house.
> 
> I think it's about 37 feet from the stove to the top of the flue, so the chimney sweep gets a workout every year. The draft is rather incredible when you fire a stack that tall, especially since the house is perched on a hill as well. I usually run the stove with the two air intake vents cracked open only 1/8" or so.
> 
> There is so little smoke coming out of this chimney most of the time that the neighbors hardly know that I burn wood. The best evidence of it is the stack of logs in the corner of the back yard and me unloading the truck.



Hi Doc,
I bet you could easily heat your house if you had it on the main floor.. Mine heats the whole house except the cellar which gets chilly but it is used for laundry etc. so it doesn't matter.. 

Ray


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## bsearcey

My small stove does a pretty good job heating my 1800 sqft house, considering it is not the perfect setting for the heat to get around. Recently though I do have to kick on the heat pump, because the upstairs is in the low 50s by about 5 am. I need to be more disciplined to wake up and keep feeding the fire. I would need to reload every 3-4 hours with the temps outside being what they are to keep the house (upstairs in particular) up to temp. Unfortunately my thermostat is also located in the same room as the stove, so while it is low 50s upstairs the living room is still mid 60s.

I need to relocate the t-stat, but have never really fished wire through walls, so I'm a little hesitant to try, especially to put it where I would like it to go.

One thing I would really love to do, is bust a hole in the bottom of the fireplace and actually make an air intake for the HVAC system directly behind the stove. Typically, while the stove is running hot, the temps behind the stove in the open area of the fireplace are around 140 degrees. Man if I could just tap into that I would have no problems getting the house warm just running the circulating fan. I'm pretty sure that would be against code, but man that would be perfect. Right now the air that enters the return is around 70. That doesn't last long though, so I'm sure by the morning it is more like 60 or 55.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> My small stove does a pretty good job heating my 1800 sqft house, considering it is not the perfect setting for the heat to get around. Recently though I do have to kick on the heat pump, because the upstairs is in the low 50s by about 5 am. I need to be more disciplined to wake up and keep feeding the fire. I would need to reload every 3-4 hours with the temps outside being what they are to keep the house (upstairs in particular) up to temp. Unfortunately my thermostat is also located in the same room as the stove, so while it is low 50s upstairs the living room is still mid 60s.
> 
> I need to relocate the t-stat, but have never really fished wire through walls, so I'm a little hesitant to try, especially to put it where I would like it to go.
> 
> One thing I would really love to do, is bust a hole in the bottom of the fireplace and actually make an air intake for the HVAC system directly behind the stove. Typically, while the stove is running hot, the temps behind the stove in the open area of the fireplace are around 140 degrees. Man if I could just tap into that I would have no problems getting the house warm just running the circulating fan. I'm pretty sure that would be against code, but man that would be perfect. Right now the air that enters the return is around 70. That doesn't last long though, so I'm sure by the morning it is more like 60 or 55.



That's a lot of house to heat with a small federal airtight.. My house is 1632 sq. ft. and I have the large and it handles it well and probably would handle your house too.. I wouldn't think it would be as hard to heat there as it here but the last 2 yrs. you've been pretty cold and snowy there.. The big advantage is a bigger firebox so you can get an overnight burn.. It was 70 degrees at 6 AM in my house and it was easy to get the stove going again with the coals..

Ray


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## bsearcey

Yeah I defiinitly know because of the small size of my stove I'm limited, plus the layout of my house doesn't help distribute the heat.

I'm really thinking hard about putting an intake behind the stove though.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Yeah I defiinitly know because of the small size of my stove I'm limited, plus the layout of my house doesn't help distribute the heat.
> 
> I'm really thinking hard about putting an intake behind the stove though.



As in an OAK? Meaning outside air kit? That would be beneficial if you have a really tight home.. How you can tell it will help is cracking open a nearby window and see if it runs better.. BTW I will take that extra high temp insulation and try it here.. Lemme know what I owe you.. This stove seems much better now that I sealed off the cat bypass.. Thinking a new stove is in my future as the stove is basically my primary heat source and the FHW by oil my backup.. I still use the furnace for my DHW source via a tankless coil.. Propane too expensive and electric maybe worse so I keep the furnace as a backup and hot water source..

Thanx,
Ray


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## bsearcey

No not an OAK, but a return for my HVAC system. Basically, bust a hole into the floor of the fireplace (behind the woodstove), put a return vent there and connect with flexible HVAC line to the main return in my crawlspace. That way with the circulating fan on it would be pulling in 140 degree air into the system. Of course mixing with the other air being pulled in, but hopefully it would raise the temperature up enough to really disperse the heat through the house. 

I have no idea if any of this is possible. In the crawlspace under the fireplace I'd have to remove the cinder blocks along that wall to access the area directly under the fireplace. That area may be full of concrete instead of being open. 

I won't be pulling out the jack hammer any time soon. There is just so much heat behind the stove (plus what gets absorbed by the masonry) that it seems like a good way to do it. I know if I were building a house I would have a return vent located really close to where the wood stove would be located. If of course code would allow it.


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## Justintoxicated

2010-12-17_00-10-59_334 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Picture of the air intake for catalyst as promised.

Update: I bought a floor standing drill press off CL 
Now I'm looking for a nice XY table or Cross vise to hold the doors in place while I work (overkill? Well Im going to need it anyways).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-m...8U7Q8/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0

I was thinking about this cross vise, but not sure if I would be better off with an XY table and a regular drill press vise mounted to the xy table?)

Any Suggestions?


----------



## bsearcey

Thanks JI. That's exactly what I needed and expected. I think it could be fairly easy to convert my stove to have an air supply directly at the cat like the later stoves. 

Can't really help you out on the vise/table question. That vise does look incredibly useful though. Definitly wouldn't hurt to have it, except for the initial shock to the wallet. 

For the time being, couldn't you just clamp the doors to the table? Not as good as a vise, but should stablize the pieces enough to do the job.


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## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Thanks JI. That's exactly what I needed and expected. I think it could be fairly easy to convert my stove to have an air supply directly at the cat like the later stoves.
> 
> Can't really help you out on the vise/table question. That vise does look incredibly useful though. Definitly wouldn't hurt to have it, except for the initial shock to the wallet.
> 
> For the time being, couldn't you just clamp the doors to the table? Not as good as a vise, but should stablize the pieces enough to do the job.



Brandon the only real purpose for the cat air is for running high burns it gives extra air to help the cat burn off more smoke.. If you need a long overnight burn you pretty much close the air to the cat off.. I usually only have mine open one turn or just a crack.. What benefit do you'll get think adding cat air? The way the air feed to the cat is situated it is preheated by the stove as the air passes over the top of the firebox in a cast iron tunnel then travels through a set of S/S tubes located directly under the cat.. Wondering how you can add this feature without replacing the top of your firebox and/or your stove side which has the side loading door (this side has the cat air damper in it)..

Ray


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## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> 2010-12-17_00-10-59_334 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> Picture of the air intake for catalyst as promised.
> 
> Update: I bought a floor standing drill press off CL
> Now I'm looking for a nice XY table or Cross vise to hold the doors in place while I work (overkill? Well Im going to need it anyways).
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-m...8U7Q8/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0
> 
> I was thinking about this cross vise, but not sure if I would be better off with an XY table and a regular drill press vise mounted to the xy table?)
> 
> Any Suggestions?



Personally I'd just clamp the foor down with C-clamps etc. unless you have lots of work to do with that drill press.. I bought a floor stand drill press 20 yrs ago and never needed a vice like that but it would have been handy a few times.. BTW I would definitely replace that cat if that were my stove.. They cost about $125.00 and last 4-6 yrs.

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

Justintoxicated said:


> 2010-12-17_00-10-59_334 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> Picture of the air intake for catalyst as promised.
> 
> Update: I bought a floor standing drill press off CL
> Now I'm looking for a nice XY table or Cross vise to hold the doors in place while I work (overkill? Well Im going to need it anyways).
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-m...8U7Q8/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0
> 
> I was thinking about this cross vise, but not sure if I would be better off with an XY table and a regular drill press vise mounted to the xy table?)
> 
> Any Suggestions?


E-mail me direct for the drilling diagram that you can use for the steel plate that will replace the cat combustor. You can drill this without any drill press vise. I made two of them and both work.


----------



## bsearcey

raybonz said:


> Brandon the only real purpose for the cat air is for running high burns it gives extra air to help the cat burn off more smoke.. If you need a long overnight burn you pretty much close the air to the cat off.. I usually only have mine open one turn or just a crack.. What benefit do you'll get think adding cat air? The way the air feed to the cat is situated it is preheated by the stove as the air passes over the top of the firebox in a cast iron tunnel then travels through a set of S/S tubes located directly under the cat.. Wondering how you can add this feature without replacing the top of your firebox and/or your stove side which has the side loading door (this side has the cat air damper in it)..
> 
> Ray



Hey Ray. Well I guess I want to do it for the exact purpose you described. Right now my only option is to open the side door air, but that kicks the flames up higher, which is not what I want. I thought that by being able to put air directly at the cat it was just increase the burn at the cat and not on the wood. I've actually experienced some burns this year that have created so much smoke that even though the cat was at temp and ignited over time the cat couldn't keep up with the smoke coming to it and got clogged. Maybe if I had been able to get air to the cat this would not have happened. 

I probably will not end up doing it. As I've sat around pondering it, I think that actually drilling a hole through the side might be harder than I think with out doing some damage. Anyway, its like the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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## Justintoxicated

So I ended up getting the 8" version of that drill press vise. Initial shock to the wallet hurts, as does my back from moving around the 82lb vise lol. But it sure is nice to have. I probably should have just found some wood blocks to space the object away from the table (hinges will not allow it to lay flat for drilling. But I think this will motivate me to use the machine a bit more.

I drilled out the holes used to mount the windows in one of the doors. Seemed to take a 7/32 bit drill bit. Does anyone know what size Helicoil setup to buy? I'm guessing I may need to drill the hole out bigger yet. I can't seem to find the correct size helicoil. .218 (7/32). Perhaps a metric size would work, but I don't have any metric drill bits.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> So I ended up getting the 8" version of that drill press vise. Initial shock to the wallet hurts, as does my back from moving around the 82lb vise lol. But it sure is nice to have. I probably should have just found some wood blocks to space the object away from the table (hinges will not allow it to lay flat for drilling. But I think this will motivate me to use the machine a bit more.
> 
> I drilled out the holes used to mount the windows in one of the doors. Seemed to take a 7/32 bit drill bit. Does anyone know what size Helicoil setup to buy? I'm guessing I may need to drill the hole out bigger yet. I can't seem to find the correct size helicoil. .218 (7/32). Perhaps a metric size would work, but I don't have any metric drill bits.


 
You'll need to look that info up as I do not want to give you bad information.. I would go american standard for simplicity's sake..

Ray


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## Justintoxicated

So I ended up with the 8" cross vise, which actually cost more than the drill press itself!

Well I finished tapping out the old broken bolts. I could not use helicoils due to not having enough material so I did the best I could. Some of them are off center (drill bit walked even with the press and cross-vise due to flex in the bit when putting enough pressure to drill out the hardened bolts) and some of them came out over sized due to pieces of the old galled up bolt sidewalls flaking off. I had one chunk of cast break off when re-tapping a hole (I think it may have already been tapped out larger once before or maybe it was off center from the factory)

So some of the threads are crappy, some are ok, some of the holes are not on center, one one of them only threads in by 1.5 turns due to the hole being drilled over sized or not being able to maintain center even with the drillpress.

I had a lot of problems drilling into some of the old bolts; breaking cheap small bits etc (took a ton of down-pressure to even drill into the bolt with the smallest bits). I Picked up some nice Rigid brand cobalt bits and even they could not drill into one of the hardened bolts (eventually the chunk of old bolt grabbed after several hours of trying different size bits).

I think I will have cut to size whatever 1/4-20 bolts I use due to varying depths in the holes I drilled (some deepened just to get some threads etc). In a couple instances due to the bit walking over to softer material I actually ended up with a hole where part of the old bolt makes up the sidewall, and had to tap into that remaining piece of bolt (its super galled up to the cast, almost melted into place it seems).

Some of the bolts Drilled out very easily with the cobalt bits, it was strange how easy some of them where while other were crazy hard. In the end though, all the bolts with thread in at least a little bit, even if the threads are not perfect or I'm threading into part of the old bolt. I think it will be enough to keep the metal windows sealed against the doors.

The Helicoil for the latch mechanism turned out to be the easiest part. My hole was not perfect due to using the hand drill before the drill press, so my threads ended up a little off center but I don't think it will matter in the end. Plent of room to drill out a larger hole for the helicoil in this portion of the door, and the cast for the most part cut smoothly when using the carbon tap that came with the kit (small piece chunked off at the very end on the inside of the door (which you will never see).

I spent about $500 in tools but some of them I had been wanting anyways.

So now I just need to figure out whether to make a back castor or buy a replacement. I'm not sure what tools would be optimal for cutting into 1/4th inch steel or stainless steel? I doubt I will be able to find a piece that is exactly the size I need. I have a Reciprocating Saw, Jig Saw, and a hacksaw, a dremel and thats about it. I have an air compressor so I could get a die-grinder or something I guess. I'm not sure if it is worth the hassle over just buying the replacement for $200.'

Looks like all the parts with the Combuster and Back Grate are about another $500. I think It may have been cheaper to buy a used one i n better condition than it was for me to repair this one. But it's been fun. For example I was looking at this one.
http://www.amazon.com/Vermont-Castings-Dutch-West-Catalyic/dp/B002NWH8DA/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
$1500 and completely new and better looking. But for $500 I guess It's worth it to simply fix the one I have. Not sure that the new one would be any better, but the front door design looks kinda nice (not as many gaskets to screw with, and one door instead of 2 to open.

*I purchased the center grate because its a missing part (a $40 part too). But I was reading that the grate covers should be in place when burning wood. Do I need to buy a grate cover for the center grate? Also which direction are the grates supposed to be flipped when burning wood the side with the cover up? thanks! *


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Flat Side Up*

The flat side of the rotating grates should be up. The wood rests on that while burning. Note that in that position, there is only about 1/4" crack on each side to allow air to pass from the front air control that leads into the ash pan. Believe me, that's all the air you need. I have that air control choked to about 3/16" open when burning full bore.

Cutting and drilling stainless steel is almost impossible. Most metal smiths that I know torch cut it.


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## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> The flat side of the rotating grates should be up. The wood rests on that while burning. Note that in that position, there is only about 1/4" crack on each side to allow air to pass from the front air control that leads into the ash pan. Believe me, that's all the air you need. I have that air control choked to about 3/16" open when burning full bore.
> 
> Cutting and drilling stainless steel is almost impossible. Most metal smiths that I know torch cut it.


 
Thanks, I'm missing the center grate, but I did order one with my purchase, However I did not add the plate that would attach to it, so it sounds like I need to order this as well?

Speaking of my order from Blackswan; it's on hold due to a backorder. I hope it's not an indefinite backorder. Going to call them tomorrow. I pulled off the screens that lead to the air ducts. I noticed what looks like pieces of cement that have broken off. I'm assuming I should attempt removing the top (worried about breaking more bolts) and re-cement the top of the stove? Where do I buy the cement to do this? Also is the $200 fan that blows air out the ducts worth while?

oh, one more thing, the metal windows for the doors (mine are not glass), have some surface rust, is there some kind of paint or something I can use to get them black again without causing issues or a nasty small when heating?


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Rutland Stove Polish*



Justintoxicated said:


> Oh, one more thing, the metal windows for the doors (mine are not glass), have some surface rust, is there some kind of paint or something I can use to get them black again without causing issues or a nasty small when heating?


Forget paint. Scour off the rust and polish the doors (and most of the stove) with Rutland stove polish that you can buy at a home improvement center. Done.


----------



## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> Forget paint. Scour off the rust and polish the doors (and most of the stove) with Rutland stove polish that you can buy at a home improvement center. Done.


 
Thanks for the tip. And idea where I can get the correct kind of cement to re-attach the top? I see some real air leaks so I think I'm going to need to re-seal the top of the stove.

Also for the grates in the stove, I ordered the center grate but not sure if there is supposed to be a cover on it or not? From what you described it seems that there should be.


Looking at this diagram, I'm not sure if #14 will also fit on the fixed grate? If so I will order it, but I would hate to order it for no reason. Here is the grate I have on order (has not shipped yet).
Large Fixed Grate at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift

It looks like it will only go in with the spikes facing up?

If it needs a grate cover would I be better off just using a piece of sheet metal in the center and drilling some holes in it?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks for the tip. And idea where I can get the correct kind of cement to re-attach the top? I see some real air leaks so I think I'm going to need to re-seal the top of the stove.
> 
> Also for the grates in the stove, I ordered the center grate but not sure if there is supposed to be a cover on it or not? From what you described it seems that there should be.
> 
> 
> Looking at this diagram, I'm not sure if #14 will also fit on the fixed grate? If so I will order it, but I would hate to order it for no reason. Here is the grate I have on order (has not shipped yet).
> Large Fixed Grate at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift
> 
> It looks like it will only go in with the spikes facing up?
> 
> If it needs a grate cover would I be better off just using a piece of sheet metal in the center and drilling some holes in it?


 
To seal the top use furnace cement, it worked fine on mine.. I did find a couple larger gaps and packed these with scrap pieces of fiberglass rope.. Make sure you clean the old stuff off 1st.. As for the fixed center grate it is a one piece unit with no cover.. You have to remove the inner bottom and it just sits in there with no bolts etc., the Vee side goes up ( I replaced this piece last year)..The inner bottom will hold the fixed center grate in place.. I also painted the stove with stove paint.. The stove paint will smell until it is cured by running the stove.. Run the stove in mild weather with a window or 2 open and a box fan blowing out.. I prefer paint as the stoveblack has graphite which will get on you if you touch it and paint will not.. You can make the call on that one.. 

Good Luck,
Ray


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks for the tip. And idea where I can get the correct kind of cement to re-attach the top? I see some real air leaks so I think I'm going to need to re-seal the top of the stove.
> 
> Also for the grates in the stove, I ordered the center grate but not sure if there is supposed to be a cover on it or not? From what you described it seems that there should be.
> 
> 
> Looking at this diagram, I'm not sure if #14 will also fit on the fixed grate? If so I will order it, but I would hate to order it for no reason. Here is the grate I have on order (has not shipped yet).
> Large Fixed Grate at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift
> 
> It looks like it will only go in with the spikes facing up?
> 
> If it needs a grate cover would I be better off just using a piece of sheet metal in the center and drilling some holes in it?


 
Look here for fixed center grate installed in my stove:

********** | Wood Stoves, Fireplace, Pellet Stoves, Gas Stoves and More - Forums!

Ray


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks for the tip. And idea where I can get the correct kind of cement to re-attach the top? I see some real air leaks so I think I'm going to need to re-seal the top of the stove.
> 
> Also for the grates in the stove, I ordered the center grate but not sure if there is supposed to be a cover on it or not? From what you described it seems that there should be.
> 
> 
> Looking at this diagram, I'm not sure if #14 will also fit on the fixed grate? If so I will order it, but I would hate to order it for no reason. Here is the grate I have on order (has not shipped yet).
> Large Fixed Grate at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift
> 
> It looks like it will only go in with the spikes facing up?
> 
> If it needs a grate cover would I be better off just using a piece of sheet metal in the center and drilling some holes in it?


 
Pics of the stove with the top removed to replace the catalytic bypass damper gasket:

********** | Wood Stoves, Fireplace, Pellet Stoves, Gas Stoves and More - Forums!

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Maybe 2015?*



raybonz said:


> Look here for fixed center grate installed in my stove:
> 
> ********** | Wood Stoves, Fireplace, Pellet Stoves, Gas Stoves and More - Forums!
> 
> Ray


Looks good, Ray. I noticed today that my 1987 Fed Airtight 288 might need a new center grate in 2015. Hard to predict these things. The original is bent slightly toward the rear of the stove. However, the grates still rotate easily to empty the ashes. It could be another 10 years.

Wish my car or truck worked as well.


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Looks good, Ray. I noticed today that my 1987 Fed Airtight 288 might need a new center grate in 2015. Hard to predict these things. The original is bent slightly toward the rear of the stove. However, the grates still rotate easily to empty the ashes. It could be another 10 years.
> 
> Wish my car or truck worked as well.


 
Thanx Ed! I never empty my ashbin because this stove runs best with it full.. I shovel out from the side door and it takes a couple minutes.. The original center grate lasted 22 yrs. here and it heved upward and finally broke in two.. I could have run it that way but figured I'd make it right..

Hope all is well with you!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

The reason I bought one was because it was missing. Who know what the last owners did with it, perhaps one day I will dig it up in the yard.

I tried to get the top plate off tonight and it was going well until it came time to undo the bolt/nut that is under the front lip.

The nut is rounded (not by me) and I can't visually see any thread on the bolt/stud either. What I don't know is the seriousness of this problem. Is it a stud welded into the top with a nut on the end? What would happen if I were to break or cut it off? Fixable or would the whole stove be trash? I mean I have a friend who could probably braze a new stud there, but I really don't want to go through that effort.

I can't see what is under there so I'll wait to hear back from someone like raybonz who has removed the top.

I HAVE to remove the top at this point because i was hitting it with a mallet to break the rest of the sealant off before I realized there was a bolt. So now it's pretty much just the bolt that is holding it together.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> The reason I bought one was because it was missing. Who know what the last owners did with it, perhaps one day I will dig it up in the yard.
> 
> I tried to get the top plate off tonight and it was going well until it came time to undo the bolt/nut that is under the front lip.
> 
> The nut is rounded (not by me) and I can't visually see any thread on the bolt/stud either. What I don't know is the seriousness of this problem. Is it a stud welded into the top with a nut on the end? What would happen if I were to break or cut it off? Fixable or would the whole stove be trash? I mean I have a friend who could probably braze a new stud there, but I really don't want to go through that effort.
> 
> I can't see what is under there so I'll wait to hear back from someone like raybonz who has removed the top.
> 
> I HAVE to remove the top at this point because i was hitting it with a mallet to break the rest of the sealant off before I realized there was a bolt. So now it's pretty much just the bolt that is holding it together.


 
Essentially that is a short piece of threaded rod with a nut on it.. Mine came out very easy and if you remove the cat chamber 1st you'll have more room to work.. Mine had never been off before so the nut was fine and I used the correct size wrench to remove it.. I use neverseize on the threads when reassembling.. I suggest you consider replacing the cat bypass damper rope gasket when you get the top off (it takes 3/8" rope gasket about 2' long).. I also noticed a large gap near the front on both sides of the vertical part of the inner top casting and used scrap ropoe gasket to get those sealed and it worked well (right near where the outlet vents are located.. Look at thos links I posted to get a better idea of what I am talking about..

Ray


----------



## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> Thanx Ed! I never empty my ashbin because this stove runs best with it full.. I shovel out from the side door and it takes a couple minutes.. The original center grate lasted 22 yrs. here and it heved upward and finally broke in two.. I could have run it that way but figured I'd make it right..
> 
> Hope all is well with you!
> 
> Ray


Thanks Ray, I tried also using a "hybrid" approach and this works. I usually relight the fire in the morning or just rejuvenate it. Before I do, I empty the ash box because the ashes are almost cool at that point. Then I rake smooth the warm (and sometimes hot) coals in the firebox, mixing those with any unburnt cinders. Then I relight the fire.

Lo and behold, this procedure completely eliminates unburnt cinders and the ashes that I shovel at the onset are a fine powder. I believe that's because the morning raking drops some small cinders down into the ash pit, and those ignite during the peak fire time as hot coals drop through from above. :musical-note:


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Essentially that is a short piece of threaded rod with a nut on it.. Mine came out very easy and if you remove the cat chamber 1st you'll have more room to work.. Mine had never been off before so the nut was fine and I used the correct size wrench to remove it.. I use neverseize on the threads when reassembling.. I suggest you consider replacing the cat bypass damper rope gasket when you get the top off (it takes 3/8" rope gasket about 2' long).. I also noticed a large gap near the front on both sides of the vertical part of the inner top casting and used scrap ropoe gasket to get those sealed and it worked well (right near where the outlet vents are located.. Look at thos links I posted to get a better idea of what I am talking about..
> 
> Ray


 
Is the short piece of rod threaded into the top? I think I either need to cut off or break the bolt off, it certainly isn't going to come off simply using the correct size wrench. I'll snap a pic with my phone tonight since my camera won't fit in there. I cannot remove the cat chamber because it is not original and is welded (tacked) to the piece below it. I think it may turn into another hole that I need to drill out, so I just want to be prepared. The gap you were talking about between the vertical part of the inner top is where I noticed the leak that made me want to remove the entire top. I think I will cancel my order from black swan and instead order from Woodmanparts plus (that is if blackswan will let me cancel). Saves me some money. I'm contemplating re-painting the entire stove while it is out. I'm guessing 3 12oz cans of stove paint should do it.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Is the short piece of rod threaded into the top? I think I either need to cut off or break the bolt off, it certainly isn't going to come off simply using the correct size wrench. I'll snap a pic with my phone tonight since my camera won't fit in there. I cannot remove the cat chamber because it is not original and is welded (tacked) to the piece below it.


It was threaded to the top however when I tried to loosen the nut the threaded rod with the nut came out as one piece.. I would think an ordinary bolt would work fine.. I believe the threaded rod was 1/4"-20 but I could be wrong so you need to double check that.. I have found that PB Blaster works great for stubborn bolts but mine have come out easily even inside the stove.. I don't see how the cat chamber could be welded in as the bolts that hold that piece in also secure the cat baffle located underneath inside the stove at the top of the inner firebox.. It must be a matter of principal as you are spending more to repair that stove than it is probably worth.. Good luck to you!

Ray


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## Justintoxicated

The cost or repair will indeed be more than the stove is currently worth. Although it should in the end be cheaper than buying a new one of similar quality. I'll take a picture of the welded cat chamber on mine. I already removed the bolts that hold the baffle under it so its certainly tack welded in place.


----------



## Wood Doctor

raybonz said:


> It must be a matter of principal as you are spending more to repair that stove than it is probably worth...
> 
> Ray


At this point. I have to agree. On the other hand, if he ever gets it working, he might enjoy the heat that you and I paid for 20+ years ago and enjoy today. And, these tools he bought will be applied to lots of other projects.:soldier:

Stoves usually become a part of you and others around you.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> The cost or repair will indeed be more than the stove is currently worth. Although it should in the end be cheaper than buying a new one of similar quality. I'll take a picture of the welded cat chamber on mine. I already removed the bolts that hold the baffle under it so its certainly tack welded in place.


 
The trouble with welding the cat chamber in place is that it was a replaceable and still available part.. I do wonder why they would have done something like that when 4 bolts went through the cat chamber casting, inner top and then threaded into the cat baffle... 

Ray


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> At this point. I have to agree. On the other hand, if he ever gets it working, he might enjoy the heat that you and I paid for 20+ years ago and enjoy today. And, these tools he bought will be applied to lots of other projects.:soldier:
> 
> Stoves usually become a part of you and others around you.


 
Ed check out this really nice fully restored 264CCL on Ebay:

Vermont Castings Cat Wood Stove Coal Stove PU/Ship, MA - eBay (item 290514785613 end time Feb-19-11 12:08:26 PST)

When I bought the same stove new I paid around $600.00 but I don't have the brass rail or warming racks.. 

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

JI. Man I thought I had a beat up frankenstein stove when I started messing with mine. You've definitly got me beat. In all honesty I would have thrown in the towel by now. I commend you for your perserverance and dedication and agree with Doc that the tools and knowledge are worth more than the purchase of a new stove. I just really hope you get this thing to a point that you can finally light a fire arty:.

I bet you could just cut that middle center bolt off and not worry about it again. I don't think it really adds much to the integrity of the top. As long as you use a liberal amount of the stove cement on the top when putting it back on you should be fine.


----------



## bsearcey

raybonz said:


> Ed check out this really nice fully restored 264CCL on Ebay:
> 
> Vermont Castings Cat Wood Stove Coal Stove PU/Ship, MA - eBay (item 290514785613 end time Feb-19-11 12:08:26 PST)
> 
> When I bought the same stove new I paid around $600.00 but I don't have the brass rail or warming racks..
> 
> Ray


 
Man that is a nice looking stove. I had no idea they had the side warming wings. It's definitely one of the older models too (pre-90). It looks like the whole thing has been bead blasted inside and out.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> JI. Man I thought I had a beat up frankenstein stove when I started messing with mine. You've definitly got me beat. In all honesty I would have thrown in the towel by now. I commend you for your perserverance and dedication and agree with Doc that the tools and knowledge are worth more than the purchase of a new stove. I just really hope you get this thing to a point that you can finally light a fire arty:.
> 
> I bet you could just cut that middle center bolt off and not worry about it again. I don't think it really adds much to the integrity of the top. As long as you use a liberal amount of the stove cement on the top when putting it back on you should be fine.


 
Brandon how ya been? If you have a chance check out a restored 264CCL on a previous post...Beautiful example of the the large convection! The cat insulation is still working well here.. Thanx again!

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Doin alright Ray. Yeah I saw that stove. Good find man. Makes me wish I had a bead blaster big enough to handle my stove. I wonder where he got the warming plates from. I've never seen those on the parts website or even in the manuals I've looked at. It looks like the seller has had some interest in the stove as well.


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Man that is a nice looking stove. I had no idea they had the side warming wings. It's definitely one of the older models too (pre-90). It looks like the whole thing has been bead blasted inside and out.


Brandon, do you see that round thing on the lower right-hand side of the picture with all the holes in it? Does it remind you of anything? Maybe this old beast?


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Doin alright Ray. Yeah I saw that stove. Good find man. Makes me wish I had a bead blaster big enough to handle my stove. I wonder where he got the warming plates from. I've never seen those on the parts website or even in the manuals I've looked at. It looks like the seller has had some interest in the stove as well.


 
I am pretty sure they were an option when I bought mine along with the brass rail on top.. Someone at the hearth forum found that stove on ebay.. I don't think that stove was used much as the inside looks like new.. Even the glass windows look new... The guy that's selling that stove is 2 hrs. from me.. I bought it at the headquarters store which was in Plymouth, MA. during their grand opening and got a great deal on it. 

Ray


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> Brandon, do you see that round thing on the lower right-hand side of the picture with all the holes in it? Does it remind you of anything? Maybe this old beast?


 
Ed I have one of thos down cellar that has never been used.. It is to replace the cat when burning coal or to run without the cat I believe.. I also have all the coal stuff unused down there..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

The drillpress I wanted anyways. I have wasted money on stupider things before  
Anyways, the Cat chamber was in fact not welded! I could clearly visualize the tacked spots in my mind, it must have been playing games with me!

It isn't too late to buy a new stove, but really once I cement the top back on and order the bolt on parts I think it should be good to go for alot less money than event he restored one on ebay.

Here was the nut I was trying to remove.



Rusted bolt holding top by Glamisduner, on Flickr

I did manage to get it off but... here is the stud when I removed it.



Stud connected to the top by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Needless to say, the stud needs to be replaced and snapped off when I tried to unthread it. (Yes I sprayed it with PB blast first). I'm thinking of getting one of those Grabits.

Amazon.com: Alden 4507P Micro Grabit Broken Bolt Extractor 4 Piece Kit: Home Improvement

Then resorting back to drilling out the bolt with the drill press if it does not work. This bolt does not appear to be quite as stuck as the ones that were in the doors.

On a brighter note, we have had record High temperatures all winter. It's been in the mid to high 70's all week. I was wishing for AC in my car on the way to work today, so at least I can take my time with this.


----------



## Wood Doctor

Justintoxicated said:


> ...Then resorting back to drilling out the bolt with the drill press if it does not work. This bolt does not appear to be quite as stuck as the ones that were in the doors...



Drill the bolt out with the DP using a bit that's smaller than the nut you removed. Tap the thread. (I assume you have a tap and die set. If not, buy one at Harbor Freight or Sears).

Welcome to machining. :disdain:


----------



## Justintoxicated

Wood Doctor said:


> Drill the bolt out with the DP using a bit that's smaller than the nut you removed. Tap the thread. (I assume you have a tap and die set. If not, buy one at Harbor Freight or Sears).
> 
> Welcome to machining. :disdain:


 Funny as it sounds, some of the bolts were so hard (possibly from being heated and cooled so many times?) that I had a hard time even drilling into them with cobalt drill bits and the doors clamped in the large vise. The amount of down pressure needed would flex the bit or un-center it. I tried punching the shafts, but this only bent my metal punches. Then again some of them were easy, I guess it just depends. I do have the two taps needed for this bolt (irwin alignment tap and bottom tap).


----------



## Justintoxicated

So apparently my local home improvement stores do not carry furnace cement in any type shape or form. They also don't care Roof Vent Caps (We removed an old asbestos pipe that was for the old water heater vent or something was draining into a can that was shoved under it, so that it looked like a can hanging from ceiling). My trip was a complete waste.

So since I need to purchase this stuff online I want to be sure I'm getting the right thing. 

Amazon.com: Dap 18854 Stove and Fireplace Mortar 10.1-Ounce: Home Improvement

or

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-0466-Fireplace-10-1-Ounce/dp/B000BQT4FU/ref=pd_luc_sbs_00_03_t_lh


Also would I need one or 2?

thanks!


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> So apparently my local home improvement stores do not carry furnace cement in any type shape or form. They also don't care Roof Vent Caps (We removed an old asbestos pipe that was for the old water heater vent or something was draining into a can that was shoved under it, so that it looked like a can hanging from ceiling). My trip was a complete waste.
> 
> So since I need to purchase this stuff online I want to be sure I'm getting the right thing.
> 
> Amazon.com: Dap 18854 Stove and Fireplace Mortar 10.1-Ounce: Home Improvement
> 
> or
> 
> Amazon.com: Red Devil 0466 Fireplace & Stove Repair Paste Adhere, Black, 10.1-Ounce: Home Improvement
> 
> 
> Also would I need one or 2?
> 
> thanks!


 
The DAP one would be OK.. I bought Rutland furnace cement at Lowes in a 1 qt. container but the caulking would probably be easier.,. One tube may be enough but 2 may be better.. I used a putty knife and 1 qt. container so hard to say for sure.. This would probably be OK too: Amazon.com: 64C BLK FURNACE CEMENT CARTRID SIZE:11 OZ.: Home Improvement or Amazon.com: Rutland Prod. FSC16 Furnace Cement: Kitchen & Dining .... Most of the furnace cements work on metal and withstand 2000+ degrees...

Ray


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## bsearcey

I agree with Ray. I used the Rutland, but had it in a tube which is easier to apply. I'd get two, just to make sure. There is a suprising amount of area to cover and you want to apply a liberal amount to make sure it seals everything good. 

Asbestos!!! Hope you took plenty of precautions so that you didn't get those fibers airbourne.


----------



## Justintoxicated

Ok I'm leaning towards 3 tubes of the DAP stuff since it's free shipping instead of $8 for a $4 item.

Also I was interesting in trying some of that stove polish I heard about. I found this stuff on ebay. (Rutland 8oz) which seems like a reasonable price. However it says it is for unpainted surfaces. Isn't the federal airtight factory painted? I believe this is the same stuff, but the users said they put it on their painted stoves anyways and it was ok?
Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Liquid Stove Grill Polish, 8 oz

Rutland Liquid Stove Polish. 1/2 Pt. - eBay (item 110634568436 end time Feb-09-11 06:08:08 PST)

Will it work?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Ok I'm leaning towards 3 tubes of the DAP stuff since it's free shipping instead of $8 for a $4 item.
> 
> Also I was interesting in trying some of that stove polish I heard about. I found this stuff on ebay. (Rutland 8oz) which seems like a reasonable price. However it says it is for unpainted surfaces. Isn't the federal airtight factory painted? I believe this is the same stuff, but the users said they put it on their painted stoves anyways and it was ok?
> Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Liquid Stove Grill Polish, 8 oz
> 
> Rutland Liquid Stove Polish. 1/2 Pt. - eBay (item 110634568436 end time Feb-09-11 06:08:08 PST)
> 
> Will it work?


 
Yes it will work however I have cautioned that you will get black if you touch the stove after polishing it with stove black as it contains carbon.. I have done it myself but found out the hard way that you will get dirty if you stove polish the stove.. I painted mine this past fall and 2 cans of paint is more than enough to get it done.. These stoves were originally painted from the factory not polished.... 

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Yes it will work however I have cautioned that you will get black if you touch the stove after polishing it with stove black as it contains carbon.. I have done it myself but found out the hard way that you will get dirty if you stove polish the stove.. I painted mine this past fall and 2 cans of paint is more than enough to get it done.. These stoves were originally painted from the factory not polished....
> 
> Ray


 
Thanks, the rest of the parts I need are on order now from woodmanspartsplus, I even decided to replace the air tubes. I ordered 2 cans of charcoal colored paint. I might just paint the doors and top and leave the rest so I don't have to remove the stove. I would imagine to completely paint the stove it would best be done outside, and possibly fired up outside as well the first two times then re-installed into the house. But it is a bit heavy to lift myself! I should have it done in time for summer haha.


----------



## bsearcey

You've hit just about every stove parts store on the net.

Scratch that. Didn't think to check the link to the one store. I'm a little slower than usual today.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks, the rest of the parts I need are on order now from Replacement Wood Stove Parts, Coal Stove Parts, Gas Stove Parts, Replacement Barbecue Parts, Pellet Stove Parts, Vermont Castings, Coalbrookdale, I even decided to replace the air tubes. I ordered 2 cans of charcoal colored paint. I might just paint the doors and top and leave the rest so I don't have to remove the stove. I would imagine to completely paint the stove it would best be done outside, and possibly fired up outside as well the first two times then re-installed into the house. But it is a bit heavy to lift myself! I should have it done in time for summer haha.



I bought a part from that company last year.. They have quite a few parts available for our stoves and the prices are reasonable.. I painted the doors outdoors and the stove carcass in the livingroom in the mild weather with all the windows open and box fans blowing out.. Told everyone to leave the house for a while so I could paint the stove body.. I did mask off everything and was careful and oh yeah the fumes were wicked for about an hour lol.. Fired up the stove on a mild day to cure the paint with the house vacated and fans in the windows.. After that it wasn't too bad.. Gotta say the stove looked good with a fresh coat of paint!

Good Luck!
Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

Thanks Ray, I ordered 2 can's of paint. Everything is coming along nicely. I think I will buy a polishing wheel for the drill press too so I can polish a few parts like the handle and the "Federal Airtight" emblem.

I just chucked the airflow valves into the press and they came out really good. 




Polish by Glamisduner, on Flickr

One of them was completely black (same color as splotch the non polished on in the picture) so I was not sure if it was even brass. Are the rings that go on the shaker grates brass (I'm guessing not).


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks Ray, I ordered 2 can's of paint. Everything is coming along nicely. I think I will buy a polishing wheel for the drill press too so I can polish a few parts like the handle and the "Federal Airtight" emblem.
> 
> I just chucked the airflow valves into the press and they came out really good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polish by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> One of them was completely black (same color as splotch the non polished on in the picture) so I was not sure if it was even brass. Are the rings that go on the shaker grates brass (I'm guessing not).


 
Those look great! There are 3 brass air damper knobs and the Federal Airtight nameplate along with the 3 brass door handles (I used Scotchbrite to remove the lacquer) the rest is not brass.. I have done the drill press thing and I find that brasso works great for normal shining.. The collars on the shaker grates are painted black on my stove so they are probably steel..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Those look great! There are 3 brass air damper knobs and the Federal Airtight nameplate along with the 3 brass door handles (I used Scotchbrite to remove the lacquer) the rest is not brass.. I have done the drill press thing and I find that brasso works great for normal shining.. The collars on the shaker grates are painted black on my stove so they are probably steel..
> 
> Ray


 
Interesting, I don't have any handles, other than the one used to turn the latches and shaker grates. I used 400 then 600 grit paper, then some aluminum polish I had laying around on one of those blue shop towels.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Interesting, I don't have any handles, other than the one used to turn the latches and shaker grates. I used 400 then 600 grit paper, then some aluminum polish I had laying around on one of those blue shop towels.


 
Yes the stove came with 3 handles similar to this one: Brass Handle Assembly at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift , along with the shaker tool you mentioned plus a wall rack to hang them on.. Plus mine also came with a spare door latch (which I still have) along with many other things..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Yes the stove came with 3 handles similar to this one: Brass Handle Assembly at Black Swan Home, Hearth & Gift , along with the shaker tool you mentioned plus a wall rack to hang them on.. Plus mine also came with a spare door latch (which I still have) along with many other things..
> 
> Ray


 
Wow, I wish I could have found a spare door that would have saved me a ton of time! The one handle I do have has been brazed together at some point.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Wow, I wish I could have found a spare door that would have saved me a ton of time! The one handle I do have has been brazed together at some point.


 
LOL came with lots of spare parts but no spare door.. I still have all the coal stuff down cellar unused too.. For what I paid I got a great deal! It still amazes me how much abuse your stove saw yet it survived.. I bought a steel cat on e-bay recently and got a great deal at $59.00 shipped.. Couldn't pass on that deal.. I bet you could find a used stove like ours on Craigslist cheap if keep an eye on it.. I missed out on a 2461 which replaced our stove that was never used for free it just needed paint as it sat in a garage... Bummer!! I look forward to seeing your stove completed.. Keep up the good work!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> LOL came with lots of spare parts but no spare door.. I still have all the coal stuff down cellar unused too.. For what I paid I got a great deal! It still amazes me how much abuse your stove saw yet it survived.. I bought a steel cat on e-bay recently and got a great deal at $59.00 shipped.. Couldn't pass on that deal.. I bet you could find a used stove like ours on Craigslist cheap if keep an eye on it.. I missed out on a 2461 which replaced our stove that was never used for free it just needed paint as it sat in a garage... Bummer!! I look forward to seeing your stove completed.. Keep up the good work!
> 
> Ray


 
Yea, I see Federal Airtights pop up, but wood stoves are not nearly as popular in Souther California as colder climates. So I'm thinking the chances of finding one one locally, for a good price, is pretty slim. Mostly, the ones I do see are not in any better condition, or else they want as much as i could buy a replacement for off amazon. Since I'm a new home owner on a budget, and propane isn't cheap when we do need heat, I figure fixing it with new parts is still the best way to go.

Any tips on cleaning up the emblem? Mines pretty dark, and I'm hoping to not have to hand sand it before buffing.


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Brass is Beautiful*



Justintoxicated said:


> ... Any tips on cleaning up the emblem? Mine's pretty dark, and I'm hoping to not have to hand sand it before buffing.



Brasso if you want to fool with it. There are lots of other brass cleaners as well. When it comes to all the other brass hardware (handles and valves), I use my drill press, spin them, and burnish with fine sandpaper.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Yea, I see Federal Airtights pop up, but wood stoves are not nearly as popular in Souther California as colder climates. So I'm thinking the chances of finding one one locally, for a good price, is pretty slim. Mostly, the ones I do see are not in any better condition, or else they want as much as i could buy a replacement for off amazon. Since I'm a new home owner on a budget, and propane isn't cheap when we do need heat, I figure fixing it with new parts is still the best way to go.
> 
> Any tips on cleaning up the emblem? Mines pretty dark, and I'm hoping to not have to hand sand it before buffing.


 
Ed's idea to spin up the brass dials in a drill press works well.. On the nameplate I took it off and used scotchbrite abrasive pad but use a low abrasive version then brasso and buff it out.. Love the brass stuff!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

So I received most of my parts, except for the baffle that sits under the airtubes and combustor. Since I have to season the back grate and alot of painting and cleanup to do I decided to get buisy on this anyways. The stove is looking (yea maybe not from these pics) great but I kinda screwed up last night.

I could not figure out a way to replace the gasket for the flue that engages and disengages the combustor without removing the 4 bolts that hold he mount in place. I knew this was going to be risky just from looking at these...

I started on the left top bolt and it actually came out without breaking! The threads were rusted so I chased them with a tap and it cleaned up nice. The Second Bolt on the left side however snapped clean off . Unfortunately, I did not notice that at this point the flue could be removed so I went to remove one from the right side. It also snapped off (it turned but I guess that was just the screw twisting itself) . Luckily at this point I realized I didn't need to remove the last bolt on the right hand side in order to remove the Flue.




More busted bolts by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Notice the top right and left lower bolts in the picture.

So is one bolt on each side good enough? It seems to hold but removing the lid again later would be a bit painful.
If not I would need to remove this inner part from the stove and get it over to the drill press to drill out the bolt from the bottom side. Looking at the stove it appears that I would remove be backing and break the cement seals and this piece would come out? Is it worth the effort or just go with one bolt on each side to hold the flue in place?

I just can't catch a break but I'm so close to finishing! Here are some closeups.



Left broken bolt by Glamisduner, on Flickr




Right broken bolt by Glamisduner, on Flickr


----------



## bsearcey

Thanks for the updates. I think you'll be fine with just the two bolts. I don't think it would be worth the effort you'd need to go through to get the broken bolts out. I guess just make sure when you are open and closing the bypass door you don't let it slam to hard. Even then I doubt the remaining bolts would break.

Keep up the good work.


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## raybonz

*bolts*

Personally I feel 2 bolts would be better especially when you add a new gasket as it takes alot of pressure for quite a while to compress that gasket when new.. I did mine 2 months ago and it's still pretty snug.. 

Just my 2 cents..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

So what do I have to do to get this top piece with the broken screws out of the stove?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> So what do I have to do to get this top piece with the broken screws out of the stove?


 
I messed up and meant to say all 4 bolts should be installed.. You are referring to the hold down clamps for the bypass damper pivot point correct? Without being there I would grind or cut the broken bolts flush if using vise grips after soaking with PB Blaster doesn't work.. If you have to grind/cut them flush then center punch the cut off bolt and drill a small hole through the bolt.. You'll need to determine the bolt size (I think it was a 1/4"-20, in that case a #7 drill or 13/64" bit (if I remember right) will be needed so you can tap for a 1/4"-20 bolt.. I don;t care for the flat head phillips bolts they used as they get chewed up too easy and have replace the ones for my flue collar with allen cap bolts and heavy duty black washers... Good luck!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> I messed up and meant to say all 4 bolts should be installed.. You are referring to the hold down clamps for the bypass damper pivot point correct? Without being there I would grind or cut the broken bolts flush if using vise grips after soaking with PB Blaster doesn't work.. If you have to grind/cut them flush then center punch the cut off bolt and drill a small hole through the bolt.. You'll need to determine the bolt size (I think it was a 1/4"-20, in that case a #7 drill or 13/64" bit (if I remember right) will be needed so you can tap for a 1/4"-20 bolt.. I don;t care for the flat head phillips bolts they used as they get chewed up too easy and have replace the ones for my flue collar with allen cap bolts and heavy duty black washers... Good luck!
> 
> Ray


 

Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.

The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).


here is a picture of the problems I am having.






I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
http://www.amazon.com/OmegaDrill-OD...1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297479479&sr=8-1-fkmr1

But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...


----------



## Wood Doctor

*This much difference?*

It is hard to believe that there is this much mechanical difference between the 288 Federal Airtight stove that I bought in 1987 and this 264 that Justintoxicated is exposing on this thread. Based on what I see here, you would never know that the same MFG that made both of them. :confused2:


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.
> 
> The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).
> 
> 
> here is a picture of the problems I am having.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
> http://www.amazon.com/OmegaDrill-OD...1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297479479&sr=8-1-fkmr1
> 
> But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...


 
Can you access the threads inside the stove? Maybe you can soak the broken bolts good with PB Blaster and carefully get the broken bolts out with vice grips... I find it hard to believe that there is no groove for a gasket especially along that edge.. I know I had to scrape those grooves pretty good because it looked like I had no groove with the hardened gasket cement along with a little ash made em hard to see.. Look here for long drill bits: http://power-tools.hardwarestore.com/54-383-drill-bits-long.aspx .. It may be easier to drill 1/4 holes and use nuts and lockwashers or similar...

Ray


----------



## raybonz

Wood Doctor said:


> It is hard to believe that there is this much mechanical difference between the 288 Federal Airtight stove that I bought in 1987 and this 264 that Justintoxicated is exposing on this thread. Based on what I see here, you would never know that the same MFG that made both of them. :confused2:


 
I hear that Ed.. Seems our stoves are very similar except yours is the big bad model.. I find it hard to believe there is no groove along that one edge.. I know mine had to be scraped pretty hard to clean up the grooves but they were there.. JI's stove survived an amazing amount of abuse... I give JI lots of credit for his perseverance as I would have took a sledge hammer to that stove on day one lol.. 

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

Well I hit it with a screw driver and mallot and it seems to be solid metal I think I will buy a write brush wheel for my dremel to get a clean surface for the cement. The bolts do not stick out out from underneath so i would really need to remove the inner top of the stove to drill kit out. Maybe I will just get a nice stainless allen bolt and try it with a single bolt. I'm curious what differences wood doctor is noticing?

Oh yea, I'm wondering if those drill bits will be sharp enough or hard enough to drill through the old bolt. I do believe I could drill it out with the 1/4th inch bit if necessary then tap the case to the next largest size. Is there some sort of super long extraction bit I could use?


----------



## raybonz

*update?*



Justintoxicated said:


> Well I hit it with a screw driver and mallot and it seems to be solid metal I think I will buy a write brush wheel for my dremel to get a clean surface for the cement. The bolts do not stick out out from underneath so i would really need to remove the inner top of the stove to drill kit out. Maybe I will just get a nice stainless allen bolt and try it with a single bolt. I'm curious what differences wood doctor is noticing?
> 
> Oh yea, I'm wondering if those drill bits will be sharp enough or hard enough to drill through the old bolt. I do believe I could drill it out with the 1/4th inch bit if necessary then tap the case to the next largest size. Is there some sort of super long extraction bit I could use?


 
The suspense is killing me so it's time for an update JI.. I would be hesitant to use S/S bolts as the threads tend to gall but if you do be sure to use some high temp never seize on the threads as this will prevent galling at least when you tighten the bolts.. You may be better off drilling slightly oversized clearance holes and add a plate maybe some 1/4" thick or so flatstock to add strength with nuts and lock washers inside the stove.. At least if you seize another bolt sometime you could use a sawzall to cut off the nuts from inside the stove.. This would be much easier than what you're dealing with right now.. 

Ray


----------



## raybonz

*groove*



Justintoxicated said:


> Exactly the bolts I am referring to. One broke off flush already. The other Is not flush but it is lower than the hold down clamps so I can't get to unless I remove (or rather break off) the 3rd remaining bolt (it won't budge). If I do this and I am unable to drill out the bolts, then the stove is trashed since it will no longer have the damper to redirect smoke through the combustor.
> 
> The problem is that the 2 horizontal pieces sticking up prevent me from drilling out the bolts because the drill is too wide and hits on these pieces. I would need a super long drill bit, and I don't know that I would even be able to drill into them with a hand drill.... So they would need to be drilled out from underneath which means I need to somehow remove this portion of the stove and flip it over. It needs to be done on a press because my drill bits just don't seem to be able to cut into the hardened bolts (using Rigid Cobalt Bits).
> 
> 
> here is a picture of the problems I am having.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I need something like this to drill these out with a hand drill?
> Amazon.com: OmegaDrill OD-1/8 1/8" Carbide Tap Extracting Drill: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> But I still have the problem of the hand drill itself not being narrow enough to allow me to drill straight down into the top...


 
Quite frankly I still believe you have a groove there and you just haven't gotten to it yet.. That is probably the most important place for the gasket to be.. I wish you lived nearby as I would love to see this in person.. I didn't think I had a groove there either but there definitely is one there.. You need it to get that gasket glued in properly... When that cement gets heated it's very hard but will come out with persistance and you certainly have plenty of that! Hang in there you're getting closer to completion every day! Keep up the great work and great pics to illustrate what you're seeing there!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

*Warped*

Made some progress. Cleaned up and removed all the old gasket material with a stainless wire wheel attached to my drill. Then I chucked the wire brush into the press and removed all the rust from the steel door window inserts with it (they are ready for paint). I also seasoned the cast iron parts in my stove. The stainless air tubes I ordered look great compared to the old non stainless ones. I will be sure to snap a pic before I put them in.

Drilling the holes out and just using a bolt may very well be the best way to go. I did manage to drill one out with an undersized extra long drill bit I picked up from home depot. I will borrow my buddies #7 size bit to finish it up before tapping some threads. The drill bit I found was just a black oxide bit and seems to have dulled and I have not been able to drill through the second bolt yet (spent about 2 hours trying). Guess I should have bought the cobalt one I found on amazon but it was like $$35.

I'm pretty sure theres no gasket on the back side of the damper area, it does indeed seem odd, but I hit metal not hardened cement. This gasket area would be using the round gasket material right? I did receive some flat stuff in the kit from black swan as well but I am not sure what it is for, maybe I could use this? The damper seems to close against it fairly well. Much Better than the side that has the gasket groove which is warped and cracked. 

This is the last problem I have and I do not know if it can be fixed. Once I solve this I just need to paint and cement it back together.




Warped by Glamisduner, on Flickr
What you see here is the combuster channel int he top and damper above it. picture was taken from inside the stove up through the middle to show the serious gap between the Damper and the damper gasket grove area.

Other than this last somewhat serious flaw the stove will be put back together better than new. (There was all kinds of areas where it appears it was never properly cemented under the top. Especially between the air channel for the blower and the top of the stove...Crazy!

To Fix this warped and cracked segment under the hinge for the damper, I'm thinking about attaching wax paper to the damper, and just sealing it up with cement rather than fiberglass gasket in order to fill the gap. Then, Perhaps once the cement has hardened, I could dremel out a channel in the cement to lay the gasket material in? I haven't worked with stove cement before so I figured I would run this by you guys first.

I thought about trying to bend this as well, but Cast iron does not seem very flexible... Especially not after its been heated enough to warp it!


----------



## raybonz

*bednding cast iron?*



Justintoxicated said:


> Made some progress. Cleaned up and removed all the old gasket material with a stainless wire wheel attached to my drill. Then I chucked the wire brush into the press and removed all the rust from the steel door window inserts with it (they are ready for paint). I also seasoned the cast iron parts in my stove. The stainless air tubes I ordered look great compared to the old non stainless ones. I will be sure to snap a pic before I put them in.
> 
> Drilling the holes out and just using a bolt may very well be the best way to go. I did manage to drill one out with an undersized extra long drill bit I picked up from home depot. I will borrow my buddies #7 size bit to finish it up before tapping some threads. The drill bit I found was just a black oxide bit and seems to have dulled and I have not been able to drill through the second bolt yet (spent about 2 hours trying). Guess I should have bought the cobalt one I found on amazon but it was like $$35.
> 
> I'm pretty sure theres no gasket on the back side of the damper area, it does indeed seem odd, but I hit metal not hardened cement. This gasket area would be using the round gasket material right? I did receive some flat stuff in the kit from black swan as well but I am not sure what it is for, maybe I could use this? The damper seems to close against it fairly well. Much Better than the side that has the gasket groove which is warped and cracked.
> 
> This is the last problem I have and I do not know if it can be fixed. Once I solve this I just need to paint and cement it back together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warped by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> What you see here is the combuster channel int he top and damper above it. picture was taken from inside the stove up through the middle to show the serious gap between the Damper and the damper gasket grove area.
> 
> Other than this last somewhat serious flaw the stove will be put back together better than new. (There was all kinds of areas where it appears it was never properly cemented under the top. Especially between the air channel for the blower and the top of the stove...Crazy!
> 
> To Fix this warped and cracked segment under the hinge for the damper, I'm thinking about attaching wax paper to the damper, and just sealing it up with cement rather than fiberglass gasket in order to fill the gap. Then, Perhaps once the cement has hardened, I could dremel out a channel in the cement to lay the gasket material in? I haven't worked with stove cement before so I figured I would run this by you guys first.
> 
> I thought about trying to bend this as well, but Cast iron does not seem very flexible... Especially not after its been heated enough to warp it!


 
You cannot bend cast iron under any circumstances! If you try to do this you break it for sure.. You should also never hit it with a hammer or similar or that will break it as well.. Furnace cement gets fairly hard when dry but it also gets brittle and I don't know how well it would hold up to create a channel.. I can't figure out what that broken piece is in the pic you posted.. Looks like an issue for sure.. On to the cat air tubes, I am pretty sure the original tubes are a low grade S/S and originally they bed them in some type of cement to seal them into place as you only want the air to travel to cat via the tubes.. I think furnace cement would work in this application..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> You cannot bend cast iron under any circumstances! If you try to do this you break it for sure.. You should also never hit it with a hammer or similar or that will break it as well.. Furnace cement gets fairly hard when dry but it also gets brittle and I don't know how well it would hold up to create a channel.. I can't figure out what that broken piece is in the pic you posted.. Looks like an issue for sure.. On to the cat air tubes, I am pretty sure the original tubes are a low grade S/S and originally they bed them in some type of cement to seal them into place as you only want the air to travel to cat via the tubes.. I think furnace cement would work in this application..
> 
> Ray


 
yea I figured it would probably break. 

Unfortunately it is this piece here. 



Warped2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

The crack is about where the red circle is and goes all the way through, but it's not like it is holding much. Anyways? The dark circle is the area that is warped. I know this is a bad leak, but I mean even so the stove was already working even with all the other leaks too before I took it apart.


----------



## raybonz

*crack*



Justintoxicated said:


> yea I figured it would probably break.
> 
> Unfortunately it is this piece here.
> 
> 
> 
> Warped2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> The crack is about where the red circle is and goes all the way through, but it's not like it is holding much. Anyways? The dark circle is the area that is warped. I know this is a bad leak, but I mean even so the stove was already working even with all the other leaks too before I took it apart.


 
OK from what you say that is the piece of the inner top that supports the cat chamber.. What I would do is apply a layer of furnace cement to seal the cat chamber to the inner top and then apply never seize to the bolts to prevent the furnace cement from adhering to the bolt threads as they are difficult to remove if you get furnace cement on the threads.. You may be OK doing that if what I see is correct..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> OK from what you say that is the piece of the inner top that supports the cat chamber.. What I would do is apply a layer of furnace cement to seal the cat chamber to the inner top and then apply never seize to the bolts to prevent the furnace cement from adhering to the bolt threads as they are difficult to remove if you get furnace cement on the threads.. You may be OK doing that if what I see is correct..
> 
> Ray



Yea, this is the one part of the stove I am unable to properly repair but I sort of knew this going into it. I think the furnace cement will be fine to seal the car chamber (use this all the way around the cat chamber or is that was that flat gasket material is for?).

However there will still be a leak on the damper side as this is really the same piece. In the picture I took of the crack you can see the damper door in the closed position and there is a good 1/4 inch gap that I doubt the gasket material will fill.

Going to go get a paint stripping wheel today hopefully I can get a few of the removable pieces painted. I'll probably prep and paint the remaining portions of the stove another time though. Then all thats left is drilling out the rest of that bolt, tapping, cementing and gasketing everything back together..


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Yea, this is the one part of the stove I am unable to properly repair but I sort of knew this going into it. I think the furnace cement will be fine to seal the car chamber (use this all the way around the cat chamber or is that was that flat gasket material is for?).
> 
> However there will still be a leak on the damper side as this is really the same piece. In the picture I took of the crack you can see the damper door in the closed position and there is a good 1/4 inch gap that I doubt the gasket material will fill.
> 
> Going to go get a paint stripping wheel today hopefully I can get a few of the removable pieces painted. I'll probably prep and paint the remaining portions of the stove another time though. Then all thats left is drilling out the rest of that bolt, tapping, cementing and gasketing everything back together..


 
If the flat gasket material is fiberglass then it is probably the window gasket.. If it is not fiberglass and about 2" wide it is probably the cat interam gasket .. If your bypass damper does not seal properly you'll create lots of creosote and waste wood plus the cat will not do it's job properly.. That bypass damper really needs to make a good seal...

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> If the flat gasket material is fiberglass then it is probably the window gasket.. If it is not fiberglass and about 2" wide it is probably the cat interam gasket .. If your bypass damper does not seal properly you'll create lots of creosote and waste wood plus the cat will not do it's job properly.. That bypass damper really needs to make a good seal...
> 
> Ray


 
Ok I guess I will try the cement idea then? Ahh window gasket that makes sense then. I don't have windows though so I guess it is just extra material. I don't think there is a way to get the damper perfectly sealed, I mean theres not even a gasket grove on the far side. I would imagine since the cat is burning so hot that it would have some pull in it's direction? I mean it was working when I fired up the stove prior to taking everything apart, and the old cat was in miserable shape.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Ok I guess I will try the cement idea then? Ahh window gasket that makes sense then. I don't have windows though so I guess it is just extra material. I don't think there is a way to get the damper perfectly sealed, I mean theres not even a gasket grove on the far side. I would imagine since the cat is burning so hot that it would have some pull in it's direction? I mean it was working when I fired up the stove prior to taking everything apart, and the old cat was in miserable shape.


 
Just an idea...

Amazon.com: Permatex 26346 Hi Temperature Metal Repair Compound - 0.7 oz.: Automotive

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Just an idea...
> 
> Amazon.com: Permatex 26346 Hi Temperature Metal Repair Compound - 0.7 oz.: Automotive
> 
> Ray


 
Not sure how to use this product to seal up the damper. Does it stay soft or does it harden? Painted a few parts tonight and they came out great. I'll try to take some more pics once I finish the top and loading door.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Not sure how to use this product to seal up the damper. Does it stay soft or does it harden? Painted a few parts tonight and they came out great. I'll try to take some more pics once I finish the top and loading door.


 
I would think it hardens but I don't know how it would hold up.. A skilled welder could repair it but the inner top would have to be removed.. The inner top is one of the parts that doesn't seem to be available.. 

Paint makes a huge difference for sure! The fumes when it heat cures are pretty bad so plan on opening a window or 2 with a box fan blowing out.. Look forward to the pics when it's done!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> I would think it hardens but I don't know how it would hold up.. A skilled welder could repair it but the inner top would have to be removed.. The inner top is one of the parts that doesn't seem to be available..
> 
> Paint makes a huge difference for sure! The fumes when it heat cures are pretty bad so plan on opening a window or 2 with a box fan blowing out.. Look forward to the pics when it's done!
> 
> Ray



I know one welder that I'm sure could do it, but I wonder if it would be worth it and what it would cost. I have another friend who is pretty good at welding as well, but I think he would want to braze it and then maybe cut a groove into the added material? Actually I'll bet he would tell me to just use stove cement to form the gasket. I guess if whatever I end up doing does not work, it would not be the end of the world to take the top of it back off again.

Yea the top piece is not available anymore, I'm kinda suprised no1 make sit, but it is the most complex piece to re-make.

Oh yea, and my old air tubes do not appear to be stainless, they are very rusty and corroded. If they were stainless they were not very good stainless steel. I think I'm going to go the Anti Seize and stainless hardware route when I re-assemble. Fining stainless bolts is proving harder than I thought. I think I know of a place that will have them though.

Anyone know of any specific anti-seize that would work well at these temperatures. I know Pep-boys had some stuff that said it was good to 1600 degrees. Might need to resort to an online source to get something else? THis one is supposed to be good up to 2400 degrees. Amazon.com: Permatex 77124 Nickel Anti-Seize - 8 oz. brush-top bottle: Automotive


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> I know one welder that I'm sure could do it, but I wonder if it would be worth it and what it would cost. I have another friend who is pretty good at welding as well, but I think he would want to braze it and then maybe cut a groove into the added material? Actually I'll bet he would tell me to just use stove cement to form the gasket. I guess if whatever I end up doing does not work, it would not be the end of the world to take the top of it back off again.
> 
> Yea the top piece is not available anymore, I'm kinda suprised no1 make sit, but it is the most complex piece to re-make.
> 
> Oh yea, and my old air tubes do not appear to be stainless, they are very rusty and corroded. If they were stainless they were not very good stainless steel. I think I'm going to go the Anti Seize and stainless hardware route when I re-assemble. Fining stainless bolts is proving harder than I thought. I think I know of a place that will have them though.
> 
> Anyone know of any specific anti-seize that would work well at these temperatures. I know Pep-boys had some stuff that said it was good to 1600 degrees. Might need to resort to an online source to get something else? THis one is supposed to be good up to 2400 degrees. Amazon.com: Permatex 77124 Nickel Anti-Seize - 8 oz. brush-top bottle: Automotive


 
Pretty sure I use the nickel never seize here.. You can buy S/S hardware online at places like this: Nuts and Bolts and Screws - Metric Bolts and Fasteners - Stainless Steel Fasteners ... 

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Pretty sure I use the nickel never seize here.. You can buy S/S hardware online at places like this: Nuts and Bolts and Screws - Metric Bolts and Fasteners - Stainless Steel Fasteners ...
> 
> Ray


 
I found a place that has all kinds of stainless hardware near my work. I almost got it all right the first try. 

*I'm wondering if allen head bolts would make more sense for the damper hinge parts? *

I'm in the middle of regasketing the front doors. For all the doors the manual says to use 1/2" gasket. The kit I bought only seems to have 7/16th" I'm guessing it would be fine to use since it is so close. *Now for the doors, in the center where the right door overlaps the left when closed, which side do I attach the gasket material on?* I'm assuming the gasket material goes around the grove behind the door, and then wraps around and down the groove on the front of the door? The door was missing all the material so I have no idea how it used to be. It's either that or it goes on the right hand side, but there isn't really a grove on the right side.

*The baffle that goes under the airtubes has smaller holes drilled into it on one side than the other. I'm not sure which direction the side with the smaller holes should face, can someone take a quick peak at theres and let me know?* Does the orientation of the combustor chamer matter?

The same store (Marshals in San Diego) had the nickel anti seize too but only in a large container and it was almost about $40 after tax, so I picked up a smaller bottle of the copper stuff instead for $9. It's rated to 1800 degrees so hopefully that will be good enough.

Its pretty wet outside today so I'm going top prep some more pieces for paint, but I'll have to hold off on the painting for a warmer dryer weekend. The paint says I should be using their primer, which I did not do. I have been using one of those paint stripper wheels for my drill press hand drill and or wire crush wheels to scuff up and clean the surfaces before applying paint. I don't have any experience with stove paint so I',m just wondering if I should hold on painting the remaining pieces and order the primer too? or just go ahead and spray them and be done with it.

Also, I got the inner grate mounted. The mounting holes did not line up so I had to bore out one of the oval slots a bit larger with my largest cobalt drill bit. (was about an 1/8th of an inch off. Seems to have done the trick.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> I found a place that has all kinds of stainless hardware near my work. I almost got it all right the first try.
> 
> *I'm wondering if allen head bolts would make more sense for the damper hinge parts? *
> 
> I'm in the middle of regasketing the front doors. For all the doors the manual says to use 1/2" gasket. The kit I bought only seems to have 7/16th" I'm guessing it would be fine to use since it is so close. *Now for the doors, in the center where the right door overlaps the left when closed, which side do I attach the gasket material on?* I'm assuming the gasket material goes around the grove behind the door, and then wraps around and down the groove on the front of the door? The door was missing all the material so I have no idea how it used to be. It's either that or it goes on the right hand side, but there isn't really a grove on the right side.
> 
> *The baffle that goes under the airtubes has smaller holes drilled into it on one side than the other. I'm not sure which direction the side with the smaller holes should face, can someone take a quick peak at theres and let me know?* Does the orientation of the combustor chamer matter?
> 
> The same store (Marshals in San Diego) had the nickel anti seize too but only in a large container and it was almost about $40 after tax, so I picked up a smaller bottle of the copper stuff instead for $9. It's rated to 1800 degrees so hopefully that will be good enough.
> 
> Its pretty wet outside today so I'm going top prep some more pieces for paint, but I'll have to hold off on the painting for a warmer dryer weekend. The paint says I should be using their primer, which I did not do. I have been using one of those paint stripper wheels for my drill press hand drill and or wire crush wheels to scuff up and clean the surfaces before applying paint. I don't have any experience with stove paint so I',m just wondering if I should hold on painting the remaining pieces and order the primer too? or just go ahead and spray them and be done with it.
> 
> Also, I got the inner grate mounted. The mounting holes did not line up so I had to bore out one of the oval slots a bit larger with my largest cobalt drill bit. (was about an 1/8th of an inch off. Seems to have done the trick.


 
The copper stuff will probably be OK.. I think I used allen cap bolts to secure the clamps for the catalytic bypass damper pivot (hinge) point.. I am assuming you're referring to the bolts that broke on the inner top when removing the damper? I really don't like the phillips flat head bolts they used there.. I am pretty sure I used washers but there isn't alot of room there so you might have to grind down the washers so they don't interfere with the damper.. I don't know what paint you're using but I just cleaned up the stove and wire brushed by hand they painted over it with no primer and the paint held on fine.. Maybe if you had bare metal you would need the primer but there was already paint there.. 

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> The copper stuff will probably be OK.. I think I used allen cap bolts to secure the clamps for the catalytic bypass damper pivot (hinge) point.. I am assuming you're referring to the bolts that broke on the inner top when removing the damper? I really don't like the phillips flat head bolts they used there.. I am pretty sure I used washers but there isn't alot of room there so you might have to grind down the washers so they don't interfere with the damper.. I don't know what paint you're using but I just cleaned up the stove and wire brushed by hand they painted over it with no primer and the paint held on fine.. Maybe if you had bare metal you would need the primer but there was already paint there..
> 
> Ray


 
Gotcha, I'm probably over thinking this, but it would suck if all the paint peeled. Some area I did take down to bare metal in order to remove the rust. I probably should have used primer in these areas. Hopefully the rest of the stove will have enough percentage left painted that the primer will not be needed.

It stopped raining so I will finish painting the removable parts today. Maybe I will even get to the main stove area itself, but it's going to be a cold night so I'm not sure I want to leave all the windows open (Cold for us San Dieagans, not cold by most of your standards for sure, maybe in the 30's).

My Stove did not have phillips head screws holding down the damper it had the standard hex head screws, I might use allens because it seems like they might be easier to remove without removing the top (I'm not sure though). I finally got through the bolt on the other side with the extended drill bit so Now I just need to borrow my buddies #7 bit and drill it slightly larger fro underneath.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Gotcha, I'm probably over thinking this, but it would suck if all the paint peeled. Some area I did take down to bare metal in order to remove the rust. I probably should have used primer in these areas. Hopefully the rest of the stove will have enough percentage left painted that the primer will not be needed.
> 
> It stopped raining so I will finish painting the removable parts today. Maybe I will even get to the main stove area itself, but it's going to be a cold night so I'm not sure I want to leave all the windows open (Cold for us San Dieagans, not cold by most of your standards for sure, maybe in the 30's).
> 
> My Stove did not have phillips head screws holding down the damper it had the standard hex head screws, I might use allens because it seems like they might be easier to remove without removing the top (I'm not sure though). I finally got through the bolt on the other side with the extended drill bit so Now I just need to borrow my buddies #7 bit and drill it slightly larger fro underneath.


 
Way to go JI! BTW I am pretty sure you can substitute a 13/64" drill bit for a #7...
Waiting for the pics here!! Oh I looked at your pics at Flicker(?) and I think the orange bird at your hummingbird feeder is an Oriole.. They love fruit such as oranges.. Beautiful birds to look at along with the hummers!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Way to go JI! BTW I am pretty sure you can substitute a 13/64" drill bit for a #7...
> Waiting for the pics here!! Oh I looked at your pics at Flicker(?) and I think the orange bird at your hummingbird feeder is an Oriole.. They love fruit such as oranges.. Beautiful birds to look at along with the hummers!
> 
> Ray


 Ahh that was at a friends house, I need to get some feeders setup though, because I have seen quite a few interesting birds in the area. My Gril would love it.

I didn't have enough light to take great pics last night, but I ended up getting ALL of the painting done. Everything is re-gasketed except the damper and I even shot some cement into a few places inside the stove area. Just need to figure out the gaskets for the bypass damper now. I built up the warped area channel with some furnace cement. so it's much closer to level now. I'm hoping it holds and seals once the gasket is in. 

Judging by the amount of gasket specified in the manual for the bypass damper I believe I do need to gasket the back side of it. There isn't really a channel though since I wire brushed the area down to metal. I could just use a ton of cement to hold the gasket I suppose. 

I think I remember someone saying that their damper locked into place better once re-gasketed? Mine does not seem to lock into place in either direction, it just lifts up or lays down. Does that sound correct? If so then I just need to make sure the damper lays against the fiberglass gasket on all sides?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Ahh that was at a friends house, I need to get some feeders setup though, because I have seen quite a few interesting birds in the area. My Gril would love it.
> 
> I didn't have enough light to take great pics last night, but I ended up getting ALL of the painting done. Everything is re-gasketed except the damper and I even shot some cement into a few places inside the stove area. Just need to figure out the gaskets for the bypass damper now. I built up the warped area channel with some furnace cement. so it's much closer to level now. I'm hoping it holds and seals once the gasket is in.
> 
> Judging by the amount of gasket specified in the manual for the bypass damper I believe I do need to gasket the back side of it. There isn't really a channel though since I wire brushed the area down to metal. I could just use a ton of cement to hold the gasket I suppose.
> 
> I think I remember someone saying that their damper locked into place better once re-gasketed? Mine does not seem to lock into place in either direction, it just lifts up or lays down. Does that sound correct? If so then I just need to make sure the damper lays against the fiberglass gasket on all sides?



With a new gasket it takes a bit of force to lock the damper down.. Whether the furnace cement will do the job remains to be seen.. I would advise that you clean/inspect your chimney regularly to avoid problems such as a chimney fire.. As long as you stay on top of things you should be OK.. I suggest you have a csia certified chimney sweep inspect your chimney to ensure it is safe or the consequences will be dire.. I had to have a SS chimney liner installed as I had a chimney fire I was unaware of.. I had several clay chimney tiles that had vertical cracks caused by a chimney fire.. Not trying to scare you just keep you safe.. That damper should lock firmly into place and yes you need gasketing around all 4 sides of the bypass damper... You're doing a good job and I am impressed how much attention you pay to the details..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> With a new gasket it takes a bit of force to lock the damper down.. Whether the furnace cement will do the job remains to be seen.. I would advise that you clean/inspect your chimney regularly to avoid problems such as a chimney fire.. As long as you stay on top of things you should be OK.. I suggest you have a csia certified chimney sweep inspect your chimney to ensure it is safe or the consequences will be dire.. I had to have a SS chimney liner installed as I had a chimney fire I was unaware of.. I had several clay chimney tiles that had vertical cracks caused by a chimney fire.. Not trying to scare you just keep you safe.. That damper should lock firmly into place and yes you need gasketing around all 4 sides of the bypass damper... You're doing a good job and I am impressed how much attention you pay to the details..
> 
> Ray


 
Thanks for the advise, maybe that would be a good idea, I was just planning to run a brush down it since it's a pretty short run.

I don't understand what locks the damper into place? It's seems to me it is just a hook attached to crack that lifts it open, or drops it closed? or maybe it's just working this way because there is no gasket.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Thanks for the advise, maybe that would be a good idea, I was just planning to run a brush down it since it's a pretty short run.
> 
> I don't understand what locks the damper into place? It's seems to me it is just a hook attached to crack that lifts it open, or drops it closed? or maybe it's just working this way because there is no gasket.


 
It's a very simple crank mechanism that goes past the 90 degree point and *must* lock into position.. A visual check should reveal what's going on.. Adding the gasket will definitely make you use extra force to overcome the resistance or something is wrong...

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

What are the directions to cement on the top? it looks as though the top would use fiberglass gasket or something. I also want to make sure the inner left and right sides seal up properly.

 This project has taken a crappy turn. I was using my new Irwin alignment taps. I tapped one of the holes in the top for the damper but the tap was starting to bing hard so I removed it check the threads with a 1" stainless screw, and came up about 1/16th of an inch short. Decided I could probably get another turn or two in with the tap. Well I was wrong. I went another turn with the tap and then started to remove it and it froze. I could not move the tap in either direction. So I decided that I should force it in reverse (unthread it), when I heard a creek. I stopped and looked at my friend who was watching. It was an "Oh ####" moment. So I did what I had to do and turned the tap in reverse again and SNAP!. Tap snapped off completely threaded into the new hole 

I'm not sure there is a way to fix this.

On another note. I laid the 3/4th inch gasket in the groves and close the damper. The damper does not "lock" closed. I don't even see how it could ever have locked closed...The little arm on the crank on the right hand side hit s a stopper before the damper could ever 'lock' into position from pushing against the gasket. At best it would lay on top of the gasket.

Well it was looking nice too. But at this point it was probably all for nothing.



stove by Glamisduner, on Flickr
I think I just wasted many Weekends and about $700 for nothing.
Kinda depressing when you invest so much and it just does not work out. Maybe I should start saving for a pellet stove or something. I have parts if anyone needs them...


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> What are the directions to cement on the top? it looks as though the top would use fiberglass gasket or something. I also want to make sure the inner left and right sides seal up properly.
> 
> This project has taken a crappy turn. I was using my new Irwin alignment taps. I tapped one of the holes in the top for the damper but the tap was starting to bing hard so I removed it check the threads with a 1" stainless screw, and came up about 1/16th of an inch short. Decided I could probably get another turn or two in with the tap. Well I was wrong. I went another turn with the tap and then started to remove it and it froze. I could not move the tap in either direction. So I decided that I should force it in reverse (unthread it), when I heard a creek. I stopped and looked at my friend who was watching. It was an "Oh ####" moment. So I did what I had to do and turned the tap in reverse again and SNAP!. Tap snapped off completely threaded into the new hole
> 
> I'm not sure there is a way to fix this.
> 
> On another note. I laid the 3/4th inch gasket in the groves and close the damper. The damper does not "lock" closed. I don't even see how it could ever have locked closed...The little arm on the crank on the right hand side hit s a stopper before the damper could ever 'lock' into position from pushing against the gasket. At best it would lay on top of the gasket.
> 
> Well it was looking nice too. But at this point it was probably all for nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> stove by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> I think I just wasted many Weekends and about $700 for nothing.
> Kinda depressing when you invest so much and it just does not work out. Maybe I should start saving for a pellet stove or something. I have parts if anyone needs them...


 
OK 1st the stove looks great!!! 2nd the gasket for the bypass damper is 3/8" not 3/4".. If you are using 3/4" that would not allow the damper to close properly or lock into place or if you just typed 3/4" by mistake I bet you have the bypass damper link from the rod to the damper in wrong.. As for the top clean out all the old hard furnace cement then fill those channels with furnace cement.. If you have some wide gaps which I did right in the middle where those uprights on the inner top intersect the front and rear of the stove add some rope gasket to fill the voids.. Hope this helps.. OK you can remove the broken tap but it won't be easy.. Try tapping on it with an old screwdriver (wear safety glasses) and it may turn or chipping it out.. It's a pain but you may be able to salvage it.. I suggest using something like cutting oil or TapFree when tapping to prevent tap breakage (2 flute taps hold up better than 2 flute taps).. Taps are very hard and brittle, make sure you thread in a fraction of a turn then back a little (keep repeating this method until done) to clear the chips from threading or you will break the taps.. Hard to explain it in written words.. Any questions feel free to ask..

You're almost there don't give up now!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> OK 1st the stove looks great!!! 2nd the gasket for the bypass damper is 3/8" not 3/4".. If you are using 3/4" that would not allow the damper to close properly or lock into place or if you just typed 3/4" by mistake I bet you have the bypass damper link from the rod to the damper in wrong.. As for the top clean out all the old hard furnace cement then fill those channels with furnace cement.. If you have some wide gaps which I did right in the middle where those uprights on the inner top intersect the front and rear of the stove add some rope gasket to fill the voids.. Hope this helps.. OK you can remove the broken tap but it won't be easy.. Try tapping on it with an old screwdriver (wear safety glasses) and it may turn or chipping it out.. It's a pain but you may be able to salvage it.. I suggest using something like cutting oil or TapFree when tapping to prevent tap breakage (2 flute taps hold up better than 2 flute taps).. Taps are very hard and brittle, make sure you thread in a fraction of a turn then back a little (keep repeating this method until done) to clear the chips from threading or you will break the taps.. Hard to explain it in written words.. Any questions feel free to ask..
> 
> You're almost there don't give up now!
> 
> Ray


 
Right I was testing using the 3/8th in gasket. I was tired last night when I posted (about 3 am!). I tried the tapping method but the edges of the tap that were barley sticking out to begin with just broke off. So the tap is recessed in the hole. It's crazy though, I had all the threads cut and was backing out the tap when it broke.. Yea it was a 4 flute tap, (Irwin / hanson). I was only cutting like 1/16th of a turn at a time, then reversing to break chips. I spent EXTRA time on this whole over an hour, due to it's location being hard to top. Still the tap broke off. I soaked the hole in cutting fluid and after every 1/2 turn I would remove the tap and clean it off. not sure how much more careful I could have been. 

If I look at the bottom the tap was through the bottom so I tried to grab it with vise grips and turn it from inside the stove. Of course the end of the tap once gain just broke off. I can clearly see clean threads in the bottom of the hole so I'm really surprised that that tap broke when reversing it out of the hole after so much care was given to breaking and even cleaning out the whole and tap as I worked. I dunno what to do now though, I'm pretty sure those tap extractors are not going to work. It's in there damn good.

I did not touch the damper link so it's still in it's original position. I have my doubts at being able to unscrew the nut from it without having to cut it off and buy a new one. If I take a picture can you verify that it was installed correctly so i don't screw it up for no reason?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Right I was testing using the 3/8th in gasket. I was tired last night when I posted (about 3 am!). I tried the tapping method but the edges of the tap that were barley sticking out to begin with just broke off. So the tap is recessed in the hole. It's crazy though, I had all the threads cut and was backing out the tap when it broke.. Yea it was a 4 flute tap, (Irwin / hanson). I was only cutting like 1/16th of a turn at a time, then reversing to break chips. I spent EXTRA time on this whole over an hour, due to it's location being hard to top. Still the tap broke off. I soaked the hole in cutting fluid and after every 1/2 turn I would remove the tap and clean it off. not sure how much more careful I could have been.
> 
> If I look at the bottom the tap was through the bottom so I tried to grab it with vise grips and turn it from inside the stove. Of course the end of the tap once gain just broke off. I can clearly see clean threads in the bottom of the hole so I'm really surprised that that tap broke when reversing it out of the hole after so much care was given to breaking and even cleaning out the whole and tap as I worked. I dunno what to do now though, I'm pretty sure those tap extractors are not going to work. It's in there damn good.
> 
> I did not touch the damper link so it's still in it's original position. I have my doubts at being able to unscrew the nut from it without having to cut it off and buy a new one. If I take a picture can you verify that it was installed correctly so i don't screw it up for no reason?


 
Yes take a pic and I will see if I think it's correct.. Don't give up now you're almost there! Others please feel free to chime in on this.. Ed I know you're a mechanical guy what's your advice?

Ray

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

JI,

I don't really have any advice to offer, but there has got to be a way to make it work. I can't believe how your stove looks. I thought it was a picture from an ad, not your stove.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> JI,
> 
> I don't really have any advice to offer, but there has got to be a way to make it work. I can't believe how your stove looks. I thought it was a picture from an ad, not your stove.


 
I agree Brandon!! I don't want JI to throw in the towel when he is so close to success!! BTW how ya been Brandon? Your stove still purring along there?

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Ray:
Doing good. I haven't needed to run the stove much in the past few weeks. The temps have been up in the 50's and 60's off and on. Granted the house has been cooler recently than when if was in the teens during January. All in all I'd say my season is about done.

I do think I will be upgrading my stove for next year. Awhile back a guy posted (cralph) to this thread how literally live right down the road from me. He has a 264ccl(r). Well he contacted me and asked if I'd like to buy it from him. I'm almost positive I will because from the pics it seemed like it was gently used. I think it will make a big difference for my heating over my 224. It is also a later model than my stove so it has the cat air control, which I think can be helpful for secondary burns. Best of all I'll still be able to keep my Federal Airtight member card :msp_laugh:. 

How bout you? Still burning steady up there I take it.

Cheers Ray,
Brandon


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Ray:
> Doing good. I haven't needed to run the stove much in the past few weeks. The temps have been up in the 50's and 60's off and on. Granted the house has been cooler recently than when if was in the teens during January. All in all I'd say my season is about done.
> 
> I do think I will be upgrading my stove for next year. Awhile back a guy posted (cralph) to this thread how literally live right down the road from me. He has a 264ccl(r). Well he contacted me and asked if I'd like to buy it from him. I'm almost positive I will because from the pics it seemed like it was gently used. I think it will make a big difference for my heating over my 224. It is also a later model than my stove so it has the cat air control, which I think can be helpful for secondary burns. Best of all I'll still be able to keep my Federal Airtight member card :msp_laugh:.
> 
> How bout you? Still burning steady up there I take it.
> 
> Cheers Ray,
> Brandon


 
Hey Brandon!
That stove(264cclr) is a mirror image of this one except it is right door loading.. It'll keep you plenty warm for sure.. Just make sure the inner top is in one piece as they seem to be unavailable now.. Personally I'd look for a 2461 which replaces these stoves and parts are available but that's just me.. I have been keeping an eye on Craigslist in hope of finding the 2461 for a good price for just this reason.. As for the weather it has moderated quite a bit here and today was around 64 which is warm for this time of year but winter isn't over yet so I will have to wait and see.. I am having more firewood delivered next week for the year after next as I like to give it time to season properly and this stove runs great with good wood.. That really is the secret to good wood burning.. Cat air control is not gonna be a big deal Brandon as I give my cat very little air if any.. These stoves work best on low to medium fires has been my experience.. Keep me posted about that stove you mentioned and post pics if you have any..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

Here is the damper crank assembly




damperCrankAssembly by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Here is my repair to the gasket grove area. I built it up with high heat mortar so it's pretty level now (although not perfectly smooth) and the gasket seems it will seal it up nicely.



gasketGroveRepair&amp;RearGasketGroveOrLackThereOf by Glamisduner, on Flickr


Here is the broken tap.



BrokenTap by Glamisduner, on Flickr
I guess the picture does not really help, it has cutting fluid in the hole and I tried to break it by smacking it with a punch and a hammer but it didn't work.


Here is a couple other Pictures I snapped the other day.



oldNewAirTubes by Glamisduner, on Flickr




StoveTop by Glamisduner, on Flickr

I do have one idea if I cannot extract or break apart the tap, and that is to just go back to the idea of using one bolt  Or, drill a second smaller bolt in front of the hole with the tap in it. Then drill a new hole through the stove.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Here is the damper crank assembly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> damperCrankAssembly by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> Here is my repair to the gasket grove area. I built it up with high heat mortar so it's pretty level now (although not perfectly smooth) and the gasket seems it will seal it up nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> gasketGroveRepair&amp;RearGasketGroveOrLackThereOf by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Here is the broken tap.
> 
> 
> 
> BrokenTap by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> I guess the picture does not really help, it has cutting fluid in the hole and I tried to break it by smacking it with a punch and a hammer but it didn't work.
> 
> 
> Here is a couple other Pictures I snapped the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> oldNewAirTubes by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StoveTop by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> I do have one idea if I cannot extract or break apart the tap, and that is to just go back to the idea of using one bolt  Or, drill a second smaller bolt in front of the hole with the tap in it. Then drill a new hole through the stove.


 
Good pics JI! OK it looks like your crank rod is correctly mounted to the crankshaft that pin on the small casting attached to the crankshaft goes into the damper door hole that is cast into it and should work.. I may need a pic of the top of the damper door to be sure your door is not missing that important detail.. If you try a heavy duty bolt to secure the damper pivot clamp you may be OK in spite of the broken tap in the inner top casting.. 

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

Will the tap not work as a bolt? Not ideal, but should secure the hinge if that is your main concern. I don't think those pieces typically go bad, so unless you are doing a complete teardown, you should never have to mess with it again.

In any event, I still think one bolt on that side is plenty to secure the damper hinge. There is not a lot of force or resistance on that piece. I could see if when you went to close the damper you simply let it fall unasisted, you could eventually break something, but I know when I close my damper I do it very gently. I control it until it is all the way closed, but more out of fear of breaking a cast piece. 

Unless I'm really missing something, I think you are good JI. Put that sucker together and light a fire, and bask in the warm heat of all that hard work . 

Now its time to start on the wood for next year and the year after.


----------



## bsearcey

Ray,

Check out post #81 in this thread. The guy who has the stove posted pics. Even the cat still looks like it has alot of life in it! 

I plan on going over that stove very carefully. I don't want to get anything that I have to put alot of work into since my stove works great. I just want to get the larger version for the extended burn time.

I hear you about the 2461, but I'm not going to pass this one up if everything looks good. The door on the right is going to take some getting used to and I'll have to rearrange a chair in my living room so I can feed it, but small price to pay for longer burns.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> Ray,
> 
> Check out post #81 in this thread. The guy who has the stove posted pics. Even the cat still looks like it has alot of life in it!
> 
> I plan on going over that stove very carefully. I don't want to get anything that I have to put alot of work into since my stove works great. I just want to get the larger version for the extended burn time.
> 
> I hear you about the 2461, but I'm not going to pass this one up if everything looks good. The door on the right is going to take some getting used to and I'll have to rearrange a chair in my living room so I can feed it, but small price to pay for longer burns.


 
Oh OK I remember that stove now.. Yes it looks pretty good.. Your stove legs and cat should fit on that stove too Brandon.. If you have a cooktop yours should also fit that stove.. Let me know how you make out on that stove.. The only difference between my stove and the cclr is the side load door is on the right.. Cool!

Good Luck!!

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

Made some progress 

Got the tap extractor but it didn't work. What happened was the tap cracked in 1/2 (down the center) while breaking chips, then when trying to back it out the 2 pieces locked each other up and the top of it snapped off. 
We cleaned out the flutes in the broken piece with a diamond bit and a dremel to use the extractor. But that didn't work, so we just kept grinding away at it until I was able to tap it out of the hole with a hammer and punch.
The holes was pretty torn up, and even drilling it out to the next size was questionable, but thats what I did. Tapped the hole out and there was enough threads for the new larger stainless bolt to grab and tighten down on. If it loosens up I'll put a washer and nut on the end of the bolt.

Next I installed the gasket, and well it would sorta latch closed, but there was allot of play in the latch and crank mechanism. I removed the pin that holds the assembly together and removed the bolt from the latch. The Latch pivots on the threads of the bolt holding it in place. The threads were worn down pretty bad... 
Another new bolt with a long shoulder for the arm to pivot on would do the trick. The holes in the crank were larger than the holding arm so I machined out the hole in the arm by about 1000th of an inch so as to minimize the tolerances between the latch arm and the crank assembly. I shimmed the end of the crack where the hinge is connected to the stove top wall, and also shimmed the latch arm so as to push the widest part of the end that connects to the damper into the clamp. I also machined down the clamp end a bit, and re-bent the notch to eliminate play.

Finally it now "locks" into place.

I took pics of the the parts installed so I will post them up soon.

I also cemented in the airtubes, installed the cat and the grate/baffle that goes under the air tubes. I'm still not sure if I aligned it correctly though. In the baffle there are smaller holes on one side of it, I guessed that these would be facing loading door / inlet side of the air tubes. If this is not correct please let me know which way the baffle is supposed to be oriented. 

I ordered the wrong thermometer, so the metal probe is too long. Can I simply cut it shorter?

Then all thats left is cementing the top on and baking the fresh paint. I think I may want to hold off on cementing the top back on until I have the chimney examined / swept. It just seems like it would be much easier with the top off of the stove.

Oh and I turned 30 yesterday!


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Made some progress
> 
> Got the tap extractor but it didn't work. What happened was the tap cracked in 1/2 (down the center) while breaking chips, then when trying to back it out the 2 pieces locked each other up and the top of it snapped off.
> We cleaned out the flutes in the broken piece with a diamond bit and a dremel to use the extractor. But that didn't work, so we just kept grinding away at it until I was able to tap it out of the hole with a hammer and punch.
> The holes was pretty torn up, and even drilling it out to the next size was questionable, but thats what I did. Tapped the hole out and there was enough threads for the new larger stainless bolt to grab and tighten down on. If it loosens up I'll put a washer and nut on the end of the bolt.
> 
> Next I installed the gasket, and well it would sorta latch closed, but there was allot of play in the latch and crank mechanism. I removed the pin that holds the assembly together and removed the bolt from the latch. The Latch pivots on the threads of the bolt holding it in place. The threads were worn down pretty bad...
> Another new bolt with a long shoulder for the arm to pivot on would do the trick. The holes in the crank were larger than the holding arm so I machined out the hole in the arm by about 1000th of an inch so as to minimize the tolerances between the latch arm and the crank assembly. I shimmed the end of the crack where the hinge is connected to the stove top wall, and also shimmed the latch arm so as to push the widest part of the end that connects to the damper into the clamp. I also machined down the clamp end a bit, and re-bent the notch to eliminate play.
> 
> Finally it now "locks" into place.
> 
> I took pics of the the parts installed so I will post them up soon.
> 
> I also cemented in the airtubes, installed the cat and the grate/baffle that goes under the air tubes. I'm still not sure if I aligned it correctly though. In the baffle there are smaller holes on one side of it, I guessed that these would be facing loading door / inlet side of the air tubes. If this is not correct please let me know which way the baffle is supposed to be oriented.
> 
> I ordered the wrong thermometer, so the metal probe is too long. Can I simply cut it shorter?
> 
> Then all thats left is cementing the top on and baking the fresh paint. I think I may want to hold off on cementing the top back on until I have the chimney examined / swept. It just seems like it would be much easier with the top off of the stove.
> 
> Oh and I turned 30 yesterday!



Happy Birthday JI!!

Wow JI sounds like you're kickin' a$$ and takin' names! Very nice work and you did the right thing upsizing that bolt after breaking a tap and removing it.. Like you said if it loosens up just add a nut and washer and you'll be good to go.. I would not cut the probe because the sensing part is located in the tip end of the probe so it would be destroyed.. Return it for the right one to save yourself some aggravation.. 

I'm glad you took the time to get the bypass mechanism working.. If it doesn't latch the cat will be useless.. I can see you learned alot on this project and if you ever get a newer stove you'll know what to look for..



Ray


----------



## bsearcey

JI,

I think you can cut the probe, at least that is what the guys at Condar told me when I ordered one. I believe all the metal probe part, to be cut, does is transfer heat for the spring to register.

Maybe double check with who you ordered it from.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> JI,
> 
> I think you can cut the probe, at least that is what the guys at Condar told me when I ordered one. I believe all the metal probe part, to be cut, does is transfer heat for the spring to register.
> 
> Maybe double check with who you ordered it from.



Hi Brandon,
I didn't know that sorry not trying to pass bad information around.. Thanx for the heads up.. BTW did you buy the FA264CCL you talked about earlier?

Ray


----------



## bsearcey

No money has traded hands yet, but it's mine. It is in ridiculously good shape. It even has the small metal pieces that go on the shaker grates. Now I'm just split on what to do with my current stove. I've got a friend who will most likely take it off my hands, but I also have a open fireplace in my upstairs bedroom. I'm thinking about putting it up there, but then I'd have run the SS line, do the block off plate again, etc. Plus I don't know how it would go with building codes. I've researched putting gas logs in there, but since it is a bedroom it has to have outside air for combustion, and can't be over 10000 btus. At that point it would be purely for aesthetics. Anway we'll see, but I will be burning the other stove this winter.


----------



## raybonz

bsearcey said:


> No money has traded hands yet, but it's mine. It is in ridiculously good shape. It even has the small metal pieces that go on the shaker grates. Now I'm just split on what to do with my current stove. I've got a friend who will most likely take it off my hands, but I also have a open fireplace in my upstairs bedroom. I'm thinking about putting it up there, but then I'd have run the SS line, do the block off plate again, etc. Plus I don't know how it would go with building codes. I've researched putting gas logs in there, but since it is a bedroom it has to have outside air for combustion, and can't be over 10000 btus. At that point it would be purely for aesthetics. Anway we'll see, but I will be burning the other stove this winter.


 
I assume you are talking about the blank metal plates that are mounted to the shaker grates? If so mine are still there too.. As for having a wood stove in a bedroom I think you're right as it may be against building codes so you should look into that..
Been real busy here stacking and moving firewood and I am tired from all that work! Still have 2 cords to stack and hope to get that done tomorrow before the snow flies tomorrow night..
JI has made good progress on his stove and it looks very good! If I were him I would have taken a sledge hammer to that stove before I ever started lol..

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

Sorry it took so long to get these pictures. been busting out the SLR but I'm too lazy to convert to JPG then upload. So much easier with my cell where I take the picture and press a button to upload it.

Heres the shimmed and repaired bypass damper.




ByPassDampterRepair by Glamisduner, on Flickr

Here is another shot that shows the hold worth bolt, the new bolt shoulder length, the shim near the damper arm, and the shims for the crank. This really helped to eliminate some of the play. it keeps the wider end of the crank arm inside of the loop housing. I also filed down the end of the housing and then re-bent the hook down to get rid of most of the free play.




BypassDamperRepair2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr

The wet looking stuff is Pb Blast and cutting fluid heh.


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Sorry it took so long to get these pictures. been busting out the SLR but I'm too lazy to convert to JPG then upload. So much easier with my cell where I take the picture and press a button to upload it.
> 
> Heres the shimmed and repaired bypass damper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ByPassDampterRepair by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> Here is another shot that shows the hold worth bolt, the new bolt shoulder length, the shim near the damper arm, and the shims for the crank. This really helped to eliminate some of the play. it keeps the wider end of the crank arm inside of the loop housing. I also filed down the end of the housing and then re-bent the hook down to get rid of most of the free play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BypassDamperRepair2 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
> 
> The wet looking stuff is Pb Blast and cutting fluid heh.


 
Way to go JI that looks better than new! I like the longer bolt you used with the unthreaded shank that will make it tighter and stronger than the original bolt.. So when you gonna try firing it up?

Ray


----------



## Justintoxicated

raybonz said:


> Way to go JI that looks better than new! I like the longer bolt you used with the unthreaded shank that will make it tighter and stronger than the original bolt.. So when you gonna try firing it up?
> 
> Ray


 
I'm trying to decide whether or not to have the chimney inspected or try to do it myself. I was thinking I could get a brush, pull it through a few times, then get up on the roof and look down it myself? It's only 1 story house and airplane wire and a weight would be pretty cheap. Outer chimney itself needs some repairs, lots of cracked and broken bricks, probably from when they over-fired it. Gotta get someone up here to show me how to fix this as well. I want to do it myself, but I need some instruction.

Either way it seems like it would be an easier process without the top of the stove on. Any suggestions for my next move?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> I'm trying to decide whether or not to have the chimney inspected or try to do it myself. I was thinking I could get a brush, pull it through a few times, then get up on the roof and look down it myself? It's only 1 story house and airplane wire and a weight would be pretty cheap. Outer chimney itself needs some repairs, lots of cracked and broken bricks, probably from when they over-fired it. Gotta get someone up here to show me how to fix this as well. I want to do it myself, but I need some instruction.
> 
> Either way it seems like it would be an easier process without the top of the stove on. Any suggestions for my next move?



If you have any cracked chimney liner tiles you need to install an insulated s/s chimney liner.. This happened here and my homeowners insurance covered this.. In my case my old liner had to be busted out 1st because my chimney tile was not big enough to fit an insulated s/s liner.. The stove works much better with an airtight insulated s/s liner for sure.. You could probably do this yourself and save quite a bit.. It's a pretty simple job if you don't have to knock out the clay liner..

Ray


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## Justintoxicated

Well there is some kinda pipe that goes all the way up to the top. not sure if it is stainless or not, I think its just regular steel.

The house actually has a second chimney thats been covered up too, we have no idea what it was for lol. 

So how do I get my insurance to cover this?


----------



## raybonz

Justintoxicated said:


> Well there is some kinda pipe that goes all the way up to the top. not sure if it is stainless or not, I think its just regular steel.
> 
> The house actually has a second chimney thats been covered up too, we have no idea what it was for lol.
> 
> So how do I get my insurance to cover this?


 
In my case I had a CSIA certified sweep inspect the chimney and he took pics and wrote a report and I notified the ins. co.. The sweep sent along the pics and the report then the ins. co. sent along their expert and they agreed I had a fire.. Bottom line my liner cost me the $500.00 deductible.. Either way it would be smart to be sure your chimney is safe for peace of mind if nothing else..

Ray


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## mytsigns

*My new 224A*

Hi one and all. First, let me say this thread is fantastic, I have been reading all weekend.

I just picked up a Dutchwest India FA224ACL at my local auction. It appears to be pretty clean and complete, no coal grates, but I think everything else is there. The grates look very clean, and I think the pieces are complete. I will post some pictures when I get a chance. It came with a set of fireplace tools that the auctioneer said were original to the stove.

It has only one air intake on the side door, and no convection ports/fan. I am hoping to install it into my fireplace this spring/summer. I burn a lot of locust in the fireplace, nice and clean.

I am not sure if I will tear it down and recement it, but will definitely regasket it. Has anyone bought a kit for this? I figured to just buy material from my local stove guy. 

Again, thank you all for the time you have invested making this thread so valuable and informative.

Chris


----------



## raybonz

mytsigns said:


> Hi one and all. First, let me say this thread is fantastic, I have been reading all weekend.
> 
> I just picked up a Dutchwest India FA224ACL at my local auction. It appears to be pretty clean and complete, no coal grates, but I think everything else is there. The grates look very clean, and I think the pieces are complete. I will post some pictures when I get a chance. It came with a set of fireplace tools that the auctioneer said were original to the stove.
> 
> It has only one air intake on the side door, and no convection ports/fan. I am hoping to install it into my fireplace this spring/summer. I burn a lot of locust in the fireplace, nice and clean.
> 
> I am not sure if I will tear it down and recement it, but will definitely regasket it. Has anyone bought a kit for this? I figured to just buy material from my local stove guy.
> 
> Again, thank you all for the time you have invested making this thread so valuable and informative.
> 
> Chris


 
Good luck with the new stove and welcome to the forum! I believe that bsearcy who is a member here has this stove.. I do know it is older than mine probably mid 1980's vintage.. Yes you can buy gasket mat'l from a stove shop just make sure the gasket density is similar to what you're replacing.. I've used the gasket from lowes that comes with the gasket adhesive and it worked fine.. They sell a pack with about 7' of 3/8" rope plus adhesive for around $10.00 made by Imperial, a known gasket maker.. You can also buy a kit from FA224 ACL for about $40.00 that will do the entire stove and then some..

Ray


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## geoxman

*just got a new/used 288ccl*

I just picked up a used 288ccl off of CL and it was in pretty good shape. No warped parts, cat still good and appears to be lightly used. It is the later model with the secondary air intake. I have pulled the top off and after further inspection of the firebox I can see light coming from two hairline cracks on the upper left and right hand corner where the two pieces of metal meet, there are no other visible joint cracks at all. So my question is can I just use this to seam everything up?
Dap 18854 High Heat Mortar Sealant, Black High Heat Mortar

I am getting rid of the VC defiant/encore after 25 years because the refractory has to be replaced again. I am looking forward to a stove with a little less maintenance. It is also missing the brass damper for the ash pan if anyone has one they would like to sell


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## bsearcey

Welcome aboard. I think the cement will work to seal the space at the joint. I don't have an extra brass dial, but I'll keep an eye out for one. Doc has a 288, so he'll have a lot of good info about operation. 

Keep us posted.


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## geoxman

cool, thanks much


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## geoxman

Is the top piece suppose to have fiberglass rope that goes into the channel, or just cement? All it had yesterday was cement and no rope. If so what size 1/2? Thanks


----------



## bsearcey

The top is sealed with cement. I thought about using the gasket, but decided to stick with cement. I don't think any of the other guys have switched either.7


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## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Welcome aboard. I think the cement will work to seal the space at the joint. I don't have an extra brass dial, but I'll keep an eye out for one. Doc has a 288, so he'll have a lot of good info about operation.
> 
> Keep us posted.


Yes, a good stove cement (Rutland) will seal those cracks. Sometimes that happens when the stove is moved a lot.

Here's the brass dial (not cheap):
Brass Dial (Large) - Consolidated Dutchwest at Black Swan Home, Hearth, and Gift

Consider making your own with a short bolt welded to a large fender washer (functional but lots of character). Once set, I seldom adjust this opening. Check out my posts on this thread for other model 288 ideas. Feel free to PM me for other questions or ideas. I've been burning mine since late 1987.


----------



## geoxman

I saw that brass dial on black swan the other day and really did not want to spend that much for a dial. I was thinking along the washer line as well. I am headed to the hardware store this morning to see what I can rig up. It will be for the ash door and I doubt I will use it that much. I re sealed all interior seams with the high heat Dap and I am going to re-gasket everything and secure the top this afternoon. This thing is a beast compared to my VC Defiant/Encore. I also like the idea of the fan to disperse the heat. I am going to also rig up some sort of screen for that to keep the dog hair from getting into it. This stove is so simple compared to my old one that had all of the refractory components, I just hope it puts out as much heat. Is the gasket surrounding the catalyst really needed? It is pretty snug. TIA


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## geoxman

*Update*

pulled it onto the deck, polished it up with stove polish, sanded all dials and handles in drill press, re did all gaskets, re cemented the top, put a 5ft stove pipe, filled it up with wood and lit a fire. I waited until the cat thermometer read 600 and it lit right up. It is deceiving how much cooler the top is from my old VC, but when I tuned on the fan it really shoots the heat. I am going to let it die out and see how long it will run before it is all the way out and cool. The firebox holds more than the VC, so I am guessing a good while. I will retire the VC next Monday and install the new/old stove. By the looks of the firebox I bet this stove had been only fired a dozen times, all parts are very clean. I might paint it a dark green, but I don't want it changing colors like Brandon's. I will post pics after install


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Terrific!*



Hard to believe that anyone who owned a Federal Airtight 288 stove would rarely fire it. I burn up 7 to 8 cords a year with mine, starting in mid-September and ending in early May.

That top will get hot, but it takes about half an hour for the stove to get there. After first firing with the block off plate open, and when the thermometer reaches 500 to 600 F, close the block off plate and the stove heat will take off like a rocket. Nearly all the smoke is then ignited in that secondary combustion chamber. The flue gases hardly even cast a shadow as they leave the chimney.

With a cast iron skillet resting on the top, you'll be able to fry bacon and eggs. The cat chamber can reach 1400 F on a cold day with a north wind. See my posts earlier on this thread for an alternative to a cat combustor. If you stick with the cat, you can clean it with soap and water or occasionally in the dishwasher. A pipe stem cleaner is yet another method, using hundreds of pokes.

I also boil water on the stove's top using a cast iron tea kettle with an open top. That adds moisture back into the air--up to a gallon a day. If you use the glass doors, be careful loading really big logs in. That ceramic glass can break, and it's expensive. I got a quote for $300 a pair from a glass shop and almost died of sticker shock.

Finding a used one of these for little cost is truly fortunate. Keep us posted on events and feel free to ask any question as you move along. Here's my beast:


----------



## geoxman

That looks just like mine except I have legs, the screens on top are still intact and the fan is in the rear. I ran into a minor snag and it is too tall and I am going to have too knock out two rows of brick in the top of my fireplace. I hope that wont be a structural problem?? The guy I bought it from took it down around 10-12 years ago for allergy reasons and sat it in his garage. He was moving and getting rid of everything and when I saw it at the sale it had minor surface rust from sitting so long. I checked everything and except the minor, minor surface rust it was super clean. I offered $200 and we agreed on $250. I think I will be happy this winter! I was going to have spend about $600 on the VC repairs. I can't really for see much that will go bad on this stove that can't be replaced with ease. I will post pics of mine next week after the install


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## mytsigns

*Geoxman, why not just take off the legs?*



> I ran into a minor snag and it is too tall and I am going to have too knock out two rows of brick in the top of my fireplace. I hope that wont be a structural problem??



OK, I'll bite...Why not just remove the legs, and turn the manifold so it exhausts to the rear instead of up? My fireplace opening is 28", right now I my stove is 29, with the legs still on it and manifold turnrd to the rear. I'm just going to cut the legs down two inches.

Good luck, winter's comin'

Myt.


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## geoxman

I like the legs due to Mastiff hair and that was with the flu collar turned around an not facing up. I knocked out the row of bricks and I had no problem with the structure. I also built a cast iron top warming shelf over the top of the stove, attached to the brick. I will post some pics this week of the new 7x4 hearth, stove and warming shelf...now the learning curve of how to run the stove continues? I have done about 5-6 small fires and it is quite different from the VC defiant/encore. good luck and what DW do you have?


----------



## mytsigns

*Nice...like the warming shelf idea*



geoxman said:


> I like the legs due to Mastiff hair and that was with the flu collar turned around an not facing up. I knocked out the row of bricks and I had no problem with the structure. I also built a cast iron top warming shelf over the top of the stove, attached to the brick. I will post some pics this week of the new 7x4 hearth, stove and warming shelf...now the learning curve of how to run the stove continues? I have done about 5-6 small fires and it is quite different from the VC defiant/encore. good luck and what DW do you have?


 
Dutchwest India FA224ACL-that's the little one with no convection vents or fan. It is not in yet (we had a little ol' hurricane and then flood round here. Lot's of downed trees though.).

I like the warming shelf idea. Please do post a picture or two of your setup.

Stay Warm,

Chris


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## mytsigns

*Craigslist find ... York, PA*

Wood/ Coal Stove

Can't really see what it is.

Chris


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## bsearcey

What's going on Federal Airtighters!? Who's burning? In VA we are not there yet, but I can feel the change a comin. Some new news on my end. I picked up another FA264CCLR. This one is a "R" (right loader), so that will take some getting used too. My excitement is mainly because this one was produced between 86-87 so it has the combustion air inlet (third dial on the side towards the top). My old stove didn't have that, so I'm hoping to get some different and better performance. Not to see the earlier model I have used the past two years hasn't been performing, but I'm hoping the ability to adjust the air at the cat will produce a better reburn.

Anyway, I picked the stove up from a guy close by me who found our thread. He posted some pics early on, but they don't really do the stove justice. It is in near mint shape. The glass is crystal clear and it has all the parts. Even the plates that screw onto the shaker grates. I'm going to regasket it, even though I don't really think it absolutely needs it. 

I have a fireplace in the master bedroom, so I plan on moving the old stove up there (not exactly per code). I doubt I get it hooked up this year, but maybe. I think being able to run the stove downstairs and one upstairs will help me keep temps at a more even level throughout the house. Maybe even burn less wood since I have to keep things cranking downstairs to generate enough heat to affect the upstairs area. It would be nice not to have the living room in the 80s just so I can have the upstairs in the upper 60s.

That's the news from VA. I'll post some pics when I have the new stove in. BTW if any of you guys hear about or have an extra round flue collar for our stoves, let me know. My new stove only has the oval flue collar with it, and I'd rather not try and mess with an ovalized T connection.


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## Wood Doctor

That combustion air inlet valve has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. I usually keep it about 2/3 open and seldom change it. I imagine it works to control oxygen to the cat combustion chamber, so closing it seems senseless. I doubt you would lose much air in the house with the fire extinguished.

Weather has been so nice here that I haven't burned in two weeks. That will change. Meanwhile, I have so much dry wood split and stacked that I'm taking a rest and selling the excess.


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## bsearcey

Hey Doc. If you were closer I'd take some of that wood off of your hands. I've got about 3 cords of mainly red oak ready to burn this year (seasoned for two), but I think it is still a little on the high mc side. Oak hates to give up its moisture. I think in a perfect setup you can get oak to season in two years, unfortnately, I don't have a good place to season it with full sun and wind exposure. Pretty much all my wood is red or white oak. I need to get my hands on about 8 cords worth of red maple, or some other decent BTU quick seasoner. That way I can burn it for the next two years and let all my oak get good and proper.

I kept having a problem last year with the cat become clogged. To the point of not working. I had really good seasoned (mc in the teens) wood last year and a brand new cat, so that should not have caused this. I know the cat was at temp when I would engage it, and it always light off showing a steady climb on the cat probe, but it would eventually become clogged with what appeared be creosote and ash. 

Anyway, I'm hoping with the cat air inlet I can focus some air right to the cat to help keep it burning properly and prevent last years problems.

BTW-I saw a thread of yours a little while back about a Makita 6401 you were working on. Did you ever figure out what was wrong?


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> Hey Doc. ... BTW-I saw a thread of yours a little while back about a Makita 6401 you were working on. Did you ever figure out what was wrong?


Nope. I still have the saw. Lots of compression, good spark, but it will not start. Won't even burn a little gas added to the combustion chamber. I've checked everything else. This engine should run. It does not.

Thanks for asking, Brandon. Nobody on the Chainsaw Forum has any idea why it does not run either. So, I just cut with my Stihl, Echo, and vintage Mac saws. They all work.

You need some ash, elm, maple, hackberry, mulberry, walnut, or even cottonwood to help keep that oak burning hot. Mixed hardwoods are the secret. Getting a huge hoard of maple doesn't work. Soft maple especially dry rots in about a year and gets punky, even when stored off the ground.


----------



## bsearcey

Doc. Sucks about the Makita. I want even begin to start giving advice about fixing it, but....have you pulled the muffler to check things out on the piston? I know you say it has compression, but alot that I've read about this test says that it alone can be misleading. Did you actually hook a gauge up? I hope you can get it running. I do like mine, but just checked the compression with a gauge and it read 125. I think I might put a BB kit on it soon. 

You mentioned in your thread that you don't feel a difference with the decomp pressed. You should. I can definitly start mine without it pressed, but there is resistance. With the decomp pressed, it virtually effortless.


----------



## forever1948

*Another One!*

Hi All - Just wanted to let you know there is another Federal Airtighter in here. Thank you for all of your info!! I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I'm a rookie and started burning just the other day (grew up with a fireplace though). I'm sure I will be asking many questions. Thanks all!
View attachment 201338


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Nice Stove...*



forever1948 said:


> Hi All - Just wanted to let you know there is another Federal Airtighter in here. Thank you for all of your info!! I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I'm a rookie and started burning just the other day (grew up with a fireplace though). I'm sure I will be asking many questions. Thanks all!
> View attachment 201338


Welcome aboard! Looks like you have a dandy. Read the directions carefully. Dutchwest used to be a great company with a great product. It takes a little getting used to and some TLC to get the most out of it. Many who have sold this stove never got the hang of it because it takes some attention--especially at startup. However, it is a well-made hunk of iron and steel. The free standers like yours kick out the most heat. 

Parts are tough to find, so I've made several of my own (as shown in earlier posts).


----------



## raybonz

forever1948 said:


> Hi All - Just wanted to let you know there is another Federal Airtighter in here. Thank you for all of your info!! I have enjoyed this thread tremendously. I'm a rookie and started burning just the other day (grew up with a fireplace though). I'm sure I will be asking many questions. Thanks all!
> View attachment 201338


 
Congrats and welcome! Your CDW looks like it's in good shape! I sold my large CDW a few weeks ago and built a new hearth and a new Pacific Energy Alderlea T-5.. My old CDW served me well it was just time for a change and the T-5 has a great view of the fire especially when the secondaries kick in.. Will this stove last me over 20 years like my FA264CCL, time will tell.. 

Ray


----------



## forever1948

Wood Doctor said:


> Welcome aboard! Looks like you have a dandy. Read the directions carefully. Dutchwest used to be a great company with a great product. It takes a little getting used to and some TLC to get the most out of it. Many who have sold this stove never got the hang of it because it takes some attention--especially at startup. However, it is a well-made hunk of iron and steel. The free standers like yours kick out the most heat.
> 
> Parts are tough to find, so I've made several of my own (as shown in earlier posts).


 
Thanks Wood. Man it puts off the heat. I have an 1900 square foot house and it heats the entire upstairs and 50% of the downstairs. Luckily for me I work for a home building company so I have an endless supply of free wood. Nice dry pine. You see any downfalls with burning that? You can see the little stack of cutoffs in the picture. I also have some ash but I just split it this summer so I am going to wait to burn that 2012/2013. Also, would any other CDW owners in here recommend the blower attachment? I found the one on fasco and confirmed that it meets the proper specs.

Raybonz - That sounds like a nice stove!!!!


----------



## bsearcey

Most of the guys on this forum and the other wood burning forum will burn pine. Shoot in some areas that is all that is available, and they burn for 6 months or more out of the year. As long as it is seasoned properly and the stack temps are kept up, there really shouldn't be anything to worry about. The only downfall is it burns quicker than the hardwoods.

I highly recommend the fan unit. You will get more heat out and away from the stove. You will need to block of the two screened holes on either side of the ash door when running the fan. That way the air is blown in can work it's way out of the top air outlets. This will maximize the amount of heat the air absorbs.


----------



## bsearcey

*Help me out guys*

Alright. I've got the new stove put in and have been burning off and on for the past few days. I'll get some pictures posted soon. I'm having an issue that I can't really put my finger on. When I engage the cat after the cat thermo reaches about 600, I get the steady increase like I'm used to. More often than not, the thermo goes all the way up to 1600 and stays there. The cat is so hot that the circular recessed area that the thermo sits in starts glowing orange. It's a dull glow and is really impercetable unless the lights are off, but I can see it and don't think the cat should be getting that hot. It stays there too. It's been like this for over an hour now.

I know I have a slight air leak at the front doors. Could this be causing it. The reason I know I have the leak is that there are small steady flames on the front of the logs by the door. If I push on the doors where they overlap, the flames die down and when I release pressure the flames come right back. It's not roaring or anything just steady orange flames. Other than that I have all the air turned off to the stove. The outside stove temperatures (top and sides) are between 250 and 350, air tubes are about 350. When I run the infrared over the top plate it jumps to 850-950. 

I'm not worred that the stove is overfiring, but could that top plate melt? I doubt it, but I have no clue really. I don't think it is good for the cat to run at such high temps for that long though.

It's strange that the doors are not sealing good. I regasketed everything except for the windows. Based on the shape the stove was in when I got it, it didn't appear to have been used much and definitely not abused. I figured the window gaskets don't really get affected like the door gaskets do. If I push on the bottom of the doors, there is definitely movement though, so it is either not seated good or the doors are bowed which doesn't make sense.

I can get the cat to cool down by opening up the bypass damper, but that kind of defeats the purpose. 

Thanks in advance for any insight.


----------



## geoxman

What size gasket did you use? I have no play in my front doors at all. Did you adjust the latching mechanism on the front doors to allow for the new gaskets? If so maybe you adjusted too much, if not then try tightening it now. good luck


----------



## bsearcey

I used the gasket size specified in the manual. I believe it is 3/4". I did not try and adjust the latch though. I was going to give that a try today when I get home. Anybody have any experience adjusting the latches?

BTW - geo, how's everything going with the 288?


----------



## geoxman

It is awesome! I really need to post pics of the hearth, stove and warming shelf. The latch has a bolt and a piece of female cast on the end. I had to spray a ton of PB Blaster to loosen it up before I adjusted mine. Spray it down and turn it counter clockwise with a pair of vice grips to the needed setting. good luck


----------



## Wood Doctor

bsearcey said:


> ... When I engage the cat after the cat thermo reaches about 600, I get the steady increase like I'm used to. More often than not, the thermo goes all the way up to 1600 and stays there. The cat is so hot that the circular recessed area that the thermo sits in starts glowing orange. It's a dull glow and is really imperceptable unless the lights are off, but I can see it and don't think the cat should be getting that hot. It stays there too. It's been like this for over an hour now... I'm not worred that the stove is overfiring, but could that top plate melt? I doubt it, but I have no clue really. I don't think it is good for the cat to run at such high temps for that long though.
> 
> ... Thanks in advance for any insight.


Bryan, I doubt you could ever melt the top late. However, you have an air intake valve for the secondary chamber above the loading door and I believe you may want to close that down a tad.

These high temps are generally caused by a blast furnace affect with a low fuel-air ratio. So, if you reduce the air flow into the chamber, that should cool things off. One of the nice features of these old Federal Airtights is that you have so much control of the fire with the three valves.

Today we had a strong north wind come in and I reached 1430 F. You will notice that the outside air and chimney draft have an enormous affect on burning efficiency.


----------



## marandam5

*Combustor Size*

Hello, everyone. We're in the process of ordering a combustor for the DutchWest FA264CCL (8/83) model wood stove. The confusion comes from the Condar site which says that we need the 6" x 2" 25 size combustor.
But, from the Firecat site they show us what we believe is the right size combustor which is the 5.66" x 1.5" 25. 

Can someone just clarify real quick which size we need? 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Wood Doctor

marandam5 said:


> Hello, everyone. We're in the process of ordering a combustor for the DutchWest FA264CCL (8/83) model wood stove. The confusion comes from the Condar site which says that we need the 6" x 2" 25 size combustor. But, from the Firecat site they show us what we believe is the right size combustor which is the 5.66" x 1.5" 25.
> 
> Can someone just clarify real quick which size we need? Thank you in advance.


Welcome aboard. I imagine either would work. The original that I used to use was close to 2" thick. Nowadays, I use a 1/4" thick steel plate with lots of drilled holes that I make in my shop (posted earlier here). That works very well for me and it's lasted over three years. Should be good for at least ten. I clean it under a faucet ever so often.


----------



## marandam5

Thanks for the quick reply. We appreciate it. 

Do you think we need the 5.66" x 1.5" size. This seems to be the size that may be required for the pre 90's model. 
We're just looking for confirmation because it doesn't say in the manual.

BTW! We have read and considered your homemade design but we would like to try the recommended way first. But I have already made plans for a 1/4" steele plate. :msp_rolleyes:

Thanks Doc!


----------



## Wood Doctor

marandam5 said:


> BTW, Doc.! We have read and considered your homemade design but we would like to try the recommended way first. But I have already made plans for a 1/4" steel plate. :msp_rolleyes:
> 
> Thanks Doc!


You will not be dissatisfied. I have a backup design I may try this week with smaller holes but more holes in the plate. Likely, that would require an extra cleaning per month, but that's a piece of cake. I run it under tap water a few minutes and brush it off.

By comparison, cleaning a cat combustor is a mess and in only a few years, they fall apart. The steel plate will likely last longer than your car.


----------



## marandam5

Wood Doctor said:


> You will not be dissatisfied. I have a backup design I may try this week with smaller holes but more holes in the plate. Likely, that would require an extra cleaning per month, but that's a piece of cake. I run it under tap water a few minutes and brush it off.
> 
> By comparison, cleaning a cat combustor is a mess and in only a few years, they fall apart. The steel plate will likely last longer than your car.



I look forward to seeing your design.


----------



## flannag

*Restoring 264...breakdown instructions needed*

I have a 1983 FA264CCR that I am restoring due to being weathered and neglected. I am having a hard time getting the front, back and sides off. I have removed the top already and all moving parts. What would help a lot is to get a set of detailed assembly disassembly instructions for the stove. I have searched everywhere and I have all the owners manuals for the various models but not enough info to help yet. Please any* instructions of assembly/disassembly of a 264*. TIA


----------



## sawmillersam

*Just bought a FA264 and making 1st post*

Found a Federal Airtight 264 on craigslist a few days ago and liked the looks of it.
I didn't know anything about them so searched for some info and found this site. 
Reading the pros and cons I decided that I would like to buy the stove if it looked 
OK after seeing it. Went and checked it out and bought it for $200.00. It is one of
the earlier ones (8/1983) but seemed to have not been abused. Was used up until
a couple years ago, I was told. The guy said it had never been apart and resealed so
I may take the top off and reseal that area before using it although it does look to be
OK. I have an oil furnace but use wood heat to cut down on oil use.

here are some pictures:

View attachment 215212
View attachment 215213
View attachment 215214
View attachment 215215
View attachment 215216


-----------------------
sawmillersam


----------



## sawmillersam

*Just bought an FA264*

A couple follow up pictures on purchase. Owner said the catalytic converter was replaced
about 2 years before he stopped using the stove. All the openings are clear so will give it 
a cleaning and try it. I think I got all the parts except the grates for coal burning but not
planning to burn coal anyway. I did get the two solid side plates. Also have the thermometer. 

View attachment 215223
View attachment 215224





_____________________
sawmillersam


----------



## Wood Doctor

*GadZooks!*

I have a feeling you have a good stove and at the lowest price I have ever seen. You did say that you paid less than $1,000 for it, right? This stove will probably last another 30 years--maybe more. I bought my 288 in 1987.

Happy woodburning and Happy belated New Year! :msp_biggrin:


----------



## sawmillersam

*Just bought an FA264*

Thanks, Wood Doctor, for the encouraging comment. Makes me glad I brought the stove home. Your
posts through the thread taught me a lot about the Federal airtights. I enjoyed all the other's posts
also.
The picture of the stove at the bottom of my last post is my wood heater at present. It is a Tiawan
copy of a Jotel. Been using it for about 25 years. Puts out a lot of heat. (I thought I had deleted the
picture to change it but it re-appeared)
I have one question about my FA264. The metal plate under the cat converter was replaced with
the solid metal one. The owner said the original was solid also. Should I replace it with the one with holes
as is shown in all the diagrams different ones have posted? Not a big expense (and seeing as I got the stove
for less than $1000) I don't mind buying a new one.
I also realize I don't have the solid metal plates that go on the shaker grates. No big deal for me as I
am a welder and do some fabricating. Were the originals cast iron?


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Thanks for the Pics*

This is interesting, and I think Brandon should also throw his hat into the ring because he has a 264CCL and I have the bigger 288CCL. The 288 never used a solid plate with side openings above it to allow the combustible smoke to escape. Instead, the 288 used a perforated plate with several large holes in it to allow hot gases to pass through it and directly into the cat combustor.

I imagine either design would work. I do know that the original perforated plate below the 288's cat combustor eventually burned out. I imagine it was about 1/8" thick or so and was thus underdesigned. The plate I replaced it with and showed earlier on this thread is twice that thickness. Note that you must have space above that solid plate on your 264 to allow gases to escape around it and then into the cat combustor.

The idea behind all these designs is to burn smoke that is not completely burned. Very hot steel leading into a secondary heat chamber can do that, and so can a high-tech cat combustor. I opted for hot steel as a lower cost alternative that is very easy to clean and maintain.


----------



## bsearcey

Use the perforated plate.

My old stove had a solid plate. I was constantly having to clean ash build up off of the cat. My new stove has a perforated plate and the cat is as clean as it was before the first fire. I truly believe it is because the plate is perforated. My theory is: The solid plate allowed ashes to collect and build up directed under the cat. When the cat was engaged, the exhaust would stir the resting ashes up and into the cat before it was able to fully ignite and help burn it off, thus causing areas of the cat to not ever engage. It was a real pain. I was constantly cleaning the cat and dealing with it becoming completly clogged. The perforated plate doesn't allow the ashes to accumulate underneath.

My two stoves do differ. My first one was like your's Sam - 1st generation or beta version. Your stove is definitely in alot better shape than mine. My new stove is newer and has the combustion air inlet. Honestly I don't ever use it since my cat takes off like a rocket. I don't need to give it anymore air. I have started leaving the overfire (feed door) air inlet open just a hair. I was having backpuffing issues with the stove completely shut down. This seems to have stopped that problem. For some reason, with my newer stove, I'm getting incredibly high cat temps. I guarantee it is pushing 2000 degrees. The recess that the thermometer sits in will glow orange and my Harbour Freight infrared thermometer can't read the temp because it is above it's upper limit of 968. I was worried at first, but have gotten use to it so just let it do it's thing. Probably isn't good for the cat, but I can't figure out how to get it to calm down. 

My newer stove has the plates on the shaker grates, and my old one didn't. I haven't really seen a difference. Doesn't seem to help contain coals any better. I'd say either or is fine. I think I remember reading in the manual that there is supposed to be a 1 or 2 percent increase in efficiency with the plates. 

Anyway...I say go perforated.


----------



## bsearcey

I just took a look of those pictures of the baffle plate under the cat....I can definitley say that diamond plate was not what came with the stove. Definitely get the perforated and if it doesn't come with new bolts, get some. It looks like they used whatever they had laying around the shop to fix it. Those bolts sticking way down are going to piss you off when you start trying to load it full of wood.


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Check That Thermometer*

Brandon, I am still maxing out at 1450 F, even today with north winds blowing 40 mph now and then. I'm starting to think your bimetallic strip thermometer may be defective. Check the coil connection under the top plate of the thermometer. These give out after awhile and the readings become invalid because the coil is loose.

Meanwhile, I must admit that this stove is performing beautifully after 24 years. I could run it continuously if I could train the dog to wake me up at about 4 am to add a log or two. You can dump cool ashes from the pan with the fire still going. Then add more wood, shake the grates, and away she goes.


----------



## sawmillersam

*Just bought an FA264*

Thanks for the comments and advice. I had decided I wanted the perforated plate so 
I ordered the one from Black Swan Hearth. Cost $32.84 with shipping. Got it yesterday.
I will put it in before I start using the stove. I agree that the guy used what he had 
laying around to replace the baffle plate and whatever bolts he could find. I wil buy
new bolts of correct length.
Vermont Castings parts store has the shaker grate plates for $7.70 each. With 
shipping would be about $26.00 for 2. But I think I will make some if I decide I want them.

New baffle plate plate is 1/4 inch thick where holes are and thicker around edges:













________________________
sawmillersam


----------



## dyerkutn

I am looking for the brass handles that open the air vents and doors for my very old Federal Airtight (1980's). Where can I find these


----------



## sawmillersam

*Brass handle assembly*

dyerkutn;
Rather pricey but here is one source for the brass handles. 
This is where I ordered the baffle plate from. Very quick service.
Lots of interesting information here on this thread about the Dutchwest 
Federal airtights.

Brass Handle Assembly at Black Swan Home, Hearth, and Gift 


______________________
Sawmillersam


----------



## dyerkutn

*Thanks*



sawmillersam said:


> dyerkutn;
> Rather pricey but here is one source for the brass handles.
> This is where I ordered the baffle plate from. Very quick service.
> Lots of interesting information here on this thread about the Dutchwest
> Federal airtights.
> 
> Brass Handle Assembly at Black Swan Home, Hearth, and Gift
> 
> 
> Sawmillersam



THanks for the fast reply--For some reason their website is not loading but I will call them on Monday. And I will definitely peruse through the forum for other info. I love this stove--although I know it is a cheaper foreign made, but it was here when I moved here--would never have thought of buying one but now cannot imagine living without it. I run it every day/evening I am going to be here for any amount of hours.
______________________


----------



## ngzcaz

Wood Doctor said:


> You will not be dissatisfied. I have a backup design I may try this week with smaller holes but more holes in the plate. Likely, that would require an extra cleaning per month, but that's a piece of cake. I run it under tap water a few minutes and brush it off.
> 
> By comparison, cleaning a cat combustor is a mess and in only a few years, they fall apart. The steel plate will likely last longer than your car.




I also have a 264 I bought new in the 80's. I've never " cleaned " the combustor nor has mine fallen apart. I imagine if one handles them and bangs them around they won't last long. You don't clean a cat converter on your car nor should you attempt to do so on your wood stove except for a slight vac once a year. They are made to be self cleaning for the most part because of the high temps. A slight vac of the combustor is ok but handle it gently is you want to get long service out of it. Mine seems to still be working since the temp dial on the top of the stove still shows over a thousand degrees when you flip the damper down. And thats well after 25 years. When these units are working correctly they are very efficent. Cleaning the chimney was almost a waste of time. BUT... thats when I burned it 24/7. Getting it " messy " is almost impossible when decent wood is used and YOU GET THE UNIT HOT ENOUGH BEFORe FLIPPING IT TO THE COMBUSTOR. If you flip it too early then yes I guess it might get messy as well as get your chimney sooted prematurely.
As to the metal combustor.. well I hope it works well for you and anyone else that tries it. I sincerely doubt if it will accomplish what a regular cat will do. The fact that you clean it as often as you do tells me it doesn't. When I bought mine it also came with a metal combustor of some sort that fit in the place of the cat. Sort of a round metal cone with holes in it. I never used it and can only surmise that it may have been when coal was being burned. I never tried coal do to a coal gas incident many years ago. 
Didn't mean to sound out of sorts but those combustors are a lot of money and mishandling them will almost guarentee a shorter life. And if the metal works Ok well I think thats great and certainly more cost effective. If anyone knows what those metal shaped cones were for I'd like to know for sure. :msp_smile:


----------



## dyerkutn

*love this thread*

I first stumbled upon and posted on this site in the spring when I was looking for someone to make a housecall to check out my 1983 Dutchwest India Fed. Airtight 224CCL (I guess the small one with no 2nd overvalve on the side door). I got my answer and did not really investigate much further. Then I posted a new post yesterday looking for new brass handles (Thank you Sawmiller Sam). It is the first forum I ever joined and I guess, except for Caroline, I might be the only female. Many of the guys on this forum seem to be real do-it-yourself type people. I myself am totally unhandy, but I can change light bulbs. I would never in a million years have considered buying a wood stove but this one was here when I moved in in 1999. The prior owners had installed it when they did an addition/renovation in 1983. I don't know how much they used it but I had it inspected--the 12 foot pipe and chimney are clean, it is installed to code. I have never been sure if I am using it totally efficiently but I love it and run it whenever I intend to be home for at least a few hours (I work majorly full time and am involved in a few other things that require evening meetings). 

At Sam's suggestion, I have been devouring the info on this forum and am very pleased to realize that I am probably doing quite well with my stove. I have always just followed the manual. It heats the place up to sweltering and the thermometer stays around 1000 if I feed it fairly often. No backsmoke and I use about a cord of hardwood per year which I have to purchase as I am in the suburbs near Boston. However, given the state of the world, I would like to see if I can make even better use of it. Don't know if anyone cares about my story but I have found the stories of other new posters really interesting. Also interesting, some people on this forum have suggested checking out ********** which I have, and people on that forum have suggested connecting with this one!! I guess there are not a ton of users out there of this particular stove. So once I have been able to digest all the info I will probably post a few more questions. 

The sun is pouring into my very large windows keeping the place pretty warm but I am off to start up the stove in a few minutes. But for the moment I do have one question for anyone out there. The outside of the stove had dulled a lot and had some rust. I wanted to spiff it up so I took the rust off with steel wool and used some William's Stove Polish by Rutland. It did shine up nicely but, even after rubbing it on extensively with rags, I am still left with a residue that comes off on my hand (or anything else) if I rub it. Also, some of the rust spots are already coming through. Any suggestions of other polishing products or should I paint it. I see from other pictures posted here that many of the stoves are a little rough looking but mine is right in the middle of my living area so I thought I would at least try to make it look nicer.


----------



## rick996

*Just found this forum*

Hi all, I have an FA264CCL that I have been using for about 10 years since I inherited it. I burn anthracite coal and it took me 2 years to learn how to burn coal in it effectively. Now I only have to touch it every 12 hours. In the morning I shake and add coal. In the evening I shake, empty ash pan and add coal. I'm in CT and the stove kept 1225 sq ft of our 1400 st ft house warm last night at 7 degrees outside (spare bedroom closed off). I wish I had found this forum sooner. Since the manual can be found here, I could have saved myself 2 years of trial and error. After reading the manual I plan to add a damper and use some stove size coal as well as the nut for starting. I light it in October and run it continuously until April.

In the manual I saw that for coal, some models have a something that replaces the catalytic converter? A basket strainer or something? Does anyone know about this? If it just blocks off the CC opening I can fabricate something. I really should do is shut it down and check all of the air passages/flow through the upper chamber so I understand the ramifications of blocking this.

I would be happy to exchange tips or information.


----------



## sawmillersam

*Coal burning adapter*

Rick996,
I am new to this forum myself; Just recently bought a FA264 that I posted about
a few posts back so others on here know a lot more than I do but from what I have 
read about burning wood or coal this adapter is to be used in place of the 
catalytic converter when burning coal. It is one of the accessories that came with my stove. 
It is the same diameter as the cat and 1/4 inch thick and holes are about 7/16 inch.
Looks like a basement drain hole cover....








______________________

sawmillersam


----------



## bsearcey

Rick,

Send me a PM with your address. I've got two of the coal burning plates for the cat chamber. I don't plan on burning coal with my stoves, so you're welcome to have one.

Here are some pics of the new stove in the living room. I took a picture of the glow around the thermometer and pictures of the thermo stuck past the 1600 degree mark on. They were with my phone, so they are not the best, but you get the idea. Doc, the thermometer is new so should not be giving me false readings.

Also took a picture of my handy dandy wood cart. Simple Harbour Freight hand truck with a square tube bracket bolted to the base. This thing is a life saver for carrying the wood from my stacks onto my back porch. I use to have to carry the wood either by the arm load or in a bag. I can get 5 times the wood up there in one effort. The fertilizer spreader is what my 3yo son pushes around while I'm getting wood.


----------



## bsearcey

Had trouble attaching to the previous post, so here they are.

View attachment 217833
View attachment 217834
View attachment 217835
View attachment 217836


----------



## rick996

sawmillersam said:


> Rick996,
> I am new to this forum myself; Just recently bought a FA264 that I posted about
> a few posts back so others on here know a lot more than I do but from what I have
> read about burning wood or coal this adapter is to be used in place of the
> catalytic converter when burning coal. It is one of the accessories that came with my stove.
> It is the same diameter as the cat and 1/4 inch thick and holes are about 7/16 inch.
> Looks like a basement drain hole cover....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________
> 
> sawmillersam



Thank you for the information. I did see reference to steel with holes and your picture tells me exactly what I want to do.


----------



## rick996

bsearcey said:


> Rick,
> 
> Send me a PM with your address. I've got two of the coal burning plates for the cat chamber. I don't plan on burning coal with my stoves, so you're welcome to have one.
> 
> Here are some pics of the new stove in the living room. I took a picture of the glow around the thermometer and pictures of the thermo stuck past the 1600 degree mark on. They were with my phone, so they are not the best, but you get the idea. Doc, the thermometer is new so should not be giving me false readings.
> 
> Also took a picture of my handy dandy wood cart. Simple Harbour Freight hand truck with a square tube bracket bolted to the base. This thing is a life saver for carrying the wood from my stacks onto my back porch. I use to have to carry the wood either by the arm load or in a bag. I can get 5 times the wood up there in one effort. The fertilizer spreader is what my 3yo son pushes around while I'm getting wood.



Thanks for the offer. I collect all kinds of parts and scraps and know exactly what I have that fits the need and modifies it to maybe get more heat. I will be using a rectangular or square piece of steel which I will drill holes over the cat holder. The plate will sit on top of the cat holder instead of in it and will extent an inch or so towards all four the sides of the stove with the hopes that it will heat up and provide more area and mass to collect heat from.


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264ccl-r*



bsearcey said:


> Croi,
> 
> That should be the right fixed (center) grate for your stove, however your husband is right (if I'm reading your placement description corrrect). See how the shaker grates are under the bottom of the stove, kind of between two plates? The fixed grate is also installed this way. Just under where you have the fixed grate resting you'll see the opening that the edges of the grate rest on. You have to lift the bottom of the stove. In order to do this you will have to remove the back and side fire plates. That will allow you lift the bottom of the stove up. It is really not that difficult. I think it is 4 or 5 bolts to get the fire plates off. The the bottom (I usually lift from the back and pull forward. The front edge of the bottom will stay in place. This will give you plenty of room to work. You will get dirty. Also that side plate you show in your picture with the fixed grate is only needed when burning coal. Not needed when burning wood.
> 
> Keep us posted.



I have just purchased a wood stove on Craig's list. It is in good shape, just need to be cleaned up and redo all the gaskets on doors and top plate.

Have a question about doing the top plate. Does it need gasket material, or can you just use the stove cement to fill in the channel that is there?

Also, can I make my own center palte in stove, where the center grate wood go,it is broken in half.

Appreciate the advice

thanks, Steve


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264cclr*



sawmillersam said:


> Found a Federal Airtight 264 on craigslist a few days ago and liked the looks of it.
> I didn't know anything about them so searched for some info and found this site.
> Reading the pros and cons I decided that I would like to buy the stove if it looked
> OK after seeing it. Went and checked it out and bought it for $200.00. It is one of
> the earlier ones (8/1983) but seemed to have not been abused. Was used up until
> a couple years ago, I was told. The guy said it had never been apart and resealed so
> I may take the top off and reseal that area before using it although it does look to be
> OK. I have an oil furnace but use wood heat to cut down on oil use.
> 
> here are some pictures:
> 
> View attachment 215212
> View attachment 215213
> View attachment 215214
> View attachment 215215
> View attachment 215216
> 
> 
> -----------------------
> sawmillersam



Nice stove, I too, have just got one on Craig's list for $200.00. I have some cleaning to do and redoing gaskets,but, everything looks great. Will post pics when done, congrats and enjoy this great stove. 

This stove is exactly like the one I had in my big house in Warwick,NY, 2500 square feet. It heated the whole house when a power outage put it too good use for (3) days, glad I had it.
The only difference was the side loading door was on the left, one I have now is on the right,which will work for me, since my log rack I built is on ht e right side also.

I did post a question earlier about the cementing the top plate. I think I got my answer.

Thanks, and makes some heat


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264cclr*

Hi Guys, forgot to mention 2 items I am interested in obtaining. (1) the solid plates on each side of the ash pan door, are they for intake air or for the blower to blow hot air out into room? If so where can I get those screens?

(2) I have the blower housing with no blower fan or motor. I know they sell them for like $150 at some outlet store who carry wood stove parts,but, let's be realistic here, I am retired and on a budget, anyone have any alternative ideas wood be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again, great forum


----------



## geoxman

Welcome to the forum! Here is where I got my replacement fan and it is working just fine

Surplus Center - 60 CFM 115 VAC FASCO CENTRIFUGAL BLOWER

good luck and it sure is a lot cheaper than $150


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264cclr*

Hi thx for the info. Does this item come with a switch and a power cord?

thx again


----------



## geoxman

yes, it is plug and play


----------



## sawmillersam

*Small air ducts*

hoppeman;
Congrats on your stove purchase.
If you have the solid plates on the two air ducts on either side of the ash pan door,
they need to stay there if you use a blower. If the stove is used without a blower the
covers need to be removed for cool air to enter so the stove can heat by convection.
(cool air in below, hot air out the two vents above)

____________________
sawmillersam


----------



## hoppeman

*air ducts*

Thanks, I appreciate the heads up. Guess I will take the solid plates out, don't have a blower yet.

The stove is ready to fire up. All the new gaskets in place,top is cemented down , all bolts in place. Brass shined, glass clean. Will let you know how it works in a day or two.

BTW, found a new way to clean the glass on the front doors. Use a wet paper towel and dip it in ashes to clean. Works great, DO NOT USE household cleaners on the glass. 

Well, guess I have to fir it up this morning, chilly here today.

Thanks.


----------



## sawmillersam

*Parts for FA264*

In case you don't know about them, here are a couple sites that still have some of the parts
for the Federal Airtight stoves. Neither of them seem to have the small bottom screens:

264CCL - Dutchwest Stove (1983-1987)

CDW FA264CCL


_______________________
sawmillersam


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264 ccl-r*

Well, I inall got the stove fired up. Working very well. I appreciate all the help.

Getting my blower in next week, and also my new thermometer, old can't read the numbers anymore.

Trying to send a picture of the finished stove. May also send the pics the way I got it.View attachment 221644
View attachment 221645
View attachment 221646
View attachment 221647
View attachment 221648


----------



## hoppeman

*more pics on FA264CCL-R used stove*

Here are the rest of the pictures before I reburbished the stove. This the way I received it. $200.00 worth of glory....lol


----------



## geoxman

hoppman, the stove cleaned up really well! I would love to have that top brass rack for my stove, you do not see too many of them. You will notice a BIG difference once your blower arrives and is installed. What shape is the catalyst in? good luck


----------



## hoppeman

*Fa264ccl-r*

The catalyst combuster is in real good shape. No cracks and is not really blemished at all.

Have used it twice now, temperature is doing well, although ordered a new thermometer, coming next week. Blower also. It stays pretty warm all thru the night,have cinders in the morning. Just put some kindling in and she starts right up again.

I will keep a look out for the brass rod for you. I am also in need of a fixed center grate, the one I have broke in half, doubt that I can weld it. 

Have one question, what is the optimum temp. to run the stove at? with all the vents closed except the one above the side loading door.

Thanks, Steve


----------



## geoxman

Are you talking about the center shaker grate? Unless you plan on burning coal I would remove the grate and fabricate something to fit in its place. The center grate in my stove sticks up a few inches and takes up wood space. I plan on fabricating a center grate this spring... maybe out of a piece of steel with holes drilled in it?
Hopefully Wood Doctor will chime in on an idea on fabricating a grate since he comes up with great modifications for these stoves. 

good news on the catalyst! I am using a stainless catalyst I got from wood stock and if yours ever starts to erode, I would suggest a stainless.

As far as the temp I mainly keep an eye on the cat probe and like to keep it between 1500 and 1000. I have a magnetic thermometer on the front left and it cruises between 400 to 600 in the situation you described. These stoves are so simple and cheap to fix and your find will keep you warm for many years to come! Update us when the blower arrives. good luck


----------



## hoppeman

*center grate*

Hello guys, just wanted to say my blower works great, thermometer let's me know when to refill with out looking thru side door.

Oh, BTW, I took out the grates all together, found a barbecue grill grate that fit to a "T" in the bottom. Seems to be working great. If you try this idea, remember to turn the grill grate with "V" pointing down toward ash pan, will have a flat surface to remove ashes later.



Any other suggestions wood be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, the hoppe woodworker


----------



## Wood Doctor

hoppeman said:


> Hello guys, just wanted to say my blower works great, thermometer let's me know when to refill with out looking thru side door.
> 
> Oh, BTW, I took out the grates all together, found a barbecue grill grate that fit to a "T" in the bottom. Seems to be working great. If you try this idea, remember to turn the grill grate with "V" pointing down toward ash pan, will have a flat surface to remove ashes later.
> 
> 
> 
> Any other suggestions wood be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks, the hoppe woodworker


Well, if the grates are gone, then you may have to cut back the bottom air opening valve. The grates do serve the purpose of reducing air flow from below. You will also be dropping ashes straight through to the ash pan below. That's rather thin steel so that may reduce the pan's life. Small concern, however, because the ash pan rests on heavy cast iron.

One of the reasons these stoves last so long is because the cast iron keeps on going and going and going...


----------



## hoppeman

*Grill bottom*

Sorry guys, I gave you the wrong info on my home made bottom grill. I took it off the old Sears roebuck wood stove from 1920. I took the cooking grill that wood attach to the front of the stove to swing into the flames and cook on, very old. So I took the grill and made it into my bottom for the dutchwest stove. It is 3/4" thick grate. Will let you know how it holds up in time.

Also, when I took out the grates for the coal, I had to plug up the holes it left behind on the side of the stove, below the side feed door.

Keep the suggestions coming, always looking for new ways to save money and stay warm.

Thanks

Steve, the hoppe woodworker


----------



## geoxman

What did you plug them up with? Can you post a pic of the grate and the stove now? TIA


----------



## hoppeman

*stove replacement grill plate*

Ok, here is a picture of the grill plate I used instead of the rocker grates. Like I said, I got this off an old wood stove from the 1920's. It is in great shape. Also, I plugged the holes left by removong the rocker grates with fiber glass rope gaskets.

Thanks, hope this helps

Steve


----------



## hoppeman

*stove grill pic*

View attachment 224207


hoppeman said:


> Ok, here is a picture of the grill plate I used instead of the rocker grates. Like I said, I got this off an old wood stove from the 1920's. It is in great shape. Also, I plugged the holes left by removong the rocker grates with fiber glass rope gaskets.
> 
> Thanks, hope this helps
> 
> Steve


----------



## schumi78

great thread for someone who wants to learn more about the federal airtight stove. I also need the rear grate and left grate, i checked them on the links mentioned here but i'm not going to spend 300+ dollars for a metal guard. the sizes are around 17.5X6.5 rear grate, 11.5x6.5 left side grate, anyone knows a way to get them cheaper in northern VA? i don't know a metal shop around here that can do that, but i never had the need before. 

another question for the experienced, i recall someone mentioning that smoke coming out of the warm air ducts is a sign of trouble. well obviously that shouldn't occur but how severe is it? it happens very rarely, only on those days where the chimney is cold and the chimney is not warm enough to draw air upwards, other than that , i don't see any smoke there and we don't smell it in the room either

also, what would make the protective grates to break down like that, my rear grate has a crack in it and the left one is now in three pieces. we bought the house four years ago, but i didn't inspect the cracks in the grates so i'm not sure if the cracks were there or it is something i'm doing wrong. Of course, i burn seasoned wood and don't burn other harmful stuff, so i'm curious to know what type of fire would destroy the grates like that?

Thank you


----------



## Wood Doctor

schumi78 said:


> Also, what would make the protective grates break down like that. My rear grate has a crack in it and the left one is now in three pieces. We bought the house four years ago, but i didn't inspect the cracks in the grates, so I'm not sure if the cracks were there or it is something I'm doing wrong. Of course, I burn seasoned wood and don't burn other harmful stuff, so I'm curious to know what type of fire would destroy the grates like that?
> 
> Thank you


Years and years of use will destroy the grates. Steel does not last forever. The back plate on the stove usually gives out first from heat. That's easy to replace. Just give the dimensions to a welding shop for 1/4" plate steel or 5/16" and they will supply it. Drill your own mounting holes for the bolts that hang it.

I'm rather surprised that the grates gave out before the back plate.


----------



## geoxman

Welcome to the forum. 
If smoke is coming out of the top ports then the top needs to be taken off and you need to re-cement the next layer of the stove. When you are doing this it is also a good time to replace the damper gasket and check for any warped parts. good luck


----------



## schumi78

thank you Wood Doctor, it seems finding a local welding shop is the most reasonable choice. the stove's left protective plate just broke to three pieces yet i still don't need to replace the back plate as there is only a crack in it but still solid. Is it time to change it when a crack shows in the middle? would i damage the stove wall behind that crack? also i snapped one of the screws head, i'll need to carefully drill that out.

thanks geoxman, the thing is, once i remove the top part, many things can go wrong and i might end up with a bigger project than i anticipated. So the question is, if i'm getting little smoke from the top ports twice or three times in a season when it is really cold (and it disappears after a minute even with the bypass damper closed), is it worth it to go through the trouble? do you forsee any issue if i don't do anything about it for now, and maybe postpone it a season or two? we usually use the fire place in the weekends only, and this year we probably used the fireplace 8-10 times total as we didn't see much cold or snow.


----------



## Wood Doctor

I doubt you will damage the stove with only a crack, but it will continue to widen as the heat takes its toll. Eventually, it will cumble. I'd wait at least a year and see what happens. My original back plate lasted 16 years. I doubt the replacement I installed will last 10.

If the bolt head is gone but threads remain, consider Liquid Wrench and double nut for removal before drilling and retapping.


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## jojo69ME

*new house w/ a FA224*

So moved in a few weeks ago in a new house (more like a swiss chalet-looking place) that is using a FA224 as it's main heating source. (there is 2 propane heaters as well throughout the house). 

To make a long story short, the landowner came in to "show me the ropes" on the stove. I have small experience with old school wood stoves (i.e. put it in and regulate air flow). 
He comes in and notices that the cat is gone... he opens the thing up and I point out that several of the backing plates have disintegrated! (see pics). 
Bottom line, he's looking into getting replacement parts. 

So this is my stove using a secondary chamber and I'm only on pg.7 of this thread, but figured I'd show some pics and continue reading and informing myself on how to use this stove.

Here is the stove in the main living room










Here is the inside (back plate gone as you can see. Will be replaced soon i hope)




(notice the crack in the back of the stove? It doesn't show on the outside back panel. Should I be concerned?)


Here is a picture of the damper adjuster and it's brass key and the other handle I am curious about. I've added a quick video that hopefully can help identify how they work.








If i am correct, the lever on the left panel is the damper adjuster. As you can see in the video, I have a 2nd small handle that is in the early part of the pipe leaving the stove. That one seems to close off any heat/air to the chimney. 

It seems, (please correct me if i'm worng) that I would not touch that small lever. I can play with the damper (closed or open... it doesn't want to stay halfway) as well as the brass dial dampers. Correct? 

As soon as the stove is back in working order, I am planning on reading the instructions and trying to follow them to the 't'. 
and yes, I'll continue to read through 26 pages before that


----------



## Wood Doctor

"I can play with the damper (closed or open... it doesn't want to stay halfway) as well as the brass dial dampers. Correct?"

Yes, The "damper" is called a block off plate. It's either closed when the fire is hot or open when first lighting it. There is no half-way setting. I have a separate T-shaped iron handle that I use to control it. Just wait until the flue gases reach about 500F and then block it off so that you don't roar your fire away. 

Now, please read carefully all of the posts on this enormous thread.


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## desertmccools

*by-pass gate on fa264ccl*

We bought a federal airtight wood stove early this year and finished out the cold this spring tossing wood into it and hoping for the best. Well, as it's cooled down into the 20's here at night and we're back to using it round the clock, I thought I'd see what I could find about it on the internet. I found this forum and I printed out the manual. From what I can figure out we have a fa264ccl pre-1984 (only the one damper and the door on the side). But I still have two questions I haven't found answers to yet:

#1. This stove has nothing that looks like it could be the lever for the by-pass gate expect maybe an eye-bolt located on the right side of the stove just 4 inches from the bottom. From what I have seen the 264 is the only one with the by-pass gate lever on the right side, but four inches from the floor doesn't sound right. And the eye-bolt is all wrong, but may have replaced the original hardware there at some point. Also, I have turned that eye bolt and found this: it stops after 4 rotations in either direction (meaning I can't just unscrew it completely and take it out). So that needs some figuring out and if anyone has an early 264 or has any idea what this eye-bolt may or may not be related to, pass it on!

#2. A Thermometer: The cook top on our stove is oval and of the same slightly textured material found on the rest of the outside of the stove. It is not the large smooth square cook top I am seeing on pictures. It also has no thermometer and no hole for a probe thermometer. So, is there a place for a probe thermometer on this thing that I am missing? If not, would a cook top (non-probe) thermometer actually read the right temperature if I set it on the cook top?

So that's all I have for now.

A little history on our stove: bought it from a guy who had just purchased a mountain cabin where he wanted to switch out the wood stove for a traditional fireplace (his loss!). From the looks of the stove it was just a weekend warrior, if that. The back inside where the draft pulls out the chimney is pretty rough around the edges, but other than that it looks great. (Haven't looked at the combustor yet, didn't even know it was there until just a few days ago!). It is missing the latch on the front doors so I always run it with the dampers shut up tight, but I did find a replacement for the latch which we'll be getting soon. So that's about it. We have never had a wood stove before but compared to the dilapitated fireplace insert we had in here before, we are noticing quite a difference! And I am learning a ton about this stove thanks to this forum. Already on the look out for another federal airtight for our remodel of a different area of our house next year. Getting excited reading about all these ways to get maximum efficiency out of this thing!


----------



## cobequidkid

*Great Thread Going Here*

I came here looking for insight to some problems I've been having with my '87 vintage FA224CCML.

I've read through page 5 so far, and am finding the answers I need, but think I'll keep reading as there is a wealth of info in this thread. If I see something on this end of the thread that I can add to, I will

Thanks to everybody who chimed in asking questions and sharing tips over the past 4 years on this thread.

BTW-The questions helped me as much as the answers, don't be afraid to ask.


----------



## ngzcaz

cobequidkid said:


> I came here looking for insight to some problems I've been having with my '87 vintage FA224CCML.
> 
> I've read through page 5 so far, and am finding the answers I need, but think I'll keep reading as there is a wealth of info in this thread. If I see something on this end of the thread that I can add to, I will
> 
> Thanks to everybody who chimed in asking questions and sharing tips over the past 4 years on this thread.
> 
> BTW-The questions helped me as much as the answers, don't be afraid to ask.





Its an old thread but useful info even if its not exactly stove specific some general principles apply. I have the extra large 288 series I bought new in the 80's. For the first 10 years or so it was going the whole winter but wouldn't supply enough heat for the whole house but too much for the finished downstairs. Had I simply cut in old time registers it might have been ok for most of the winter but still would have needed a bit of help during cold spells. When oil became cheaper we switched to oil until a few years ago when I got pissed at the price fluctuation without rhyme or reason so I bought an outdoor wood boiler. Last year it paid its self off but its a lot of work compared to the 288. But it heats the whole house and the hot water as well so I'll keep doing it as long as I can. BTW, my 288 has a cat converter which is still in the stove after 25 plus years. It still hits near 800 degrees or better. 
Have a feeling its a bit colder where you are than here in NE Pa.


----------



## gmanj

*federal airtight*

federal airtight
Just picked up the same stove as you for free! I was doing some work at a customers house and she asked if I wanted it. I'm looking to set mine up as a free standing stove rather than a insert although it was used as a insert and has all the insert sides. Mine has a blower motor on the side that needs to be replaced I'm gonna try the sites you guys listed.Your conversations jabs been helpful,Thanks!


----------



## ngzcaz

gmanj said:


> federal airtight
> Just picked up the same stove as you for free! I was doing some work at a customers house and she asked if I wanted it. I'm looking to set mine up as a free standing stove rather than a insert although it was used as a insert and has all the insert sides. Mine has a blower motor on the side that needs to be replaced I'm gonna try the sites you guys listed.Your conversations jabs been helpful,Thanks!




Free gives you a whole lot of wiggle room for redoing some of the stove. Not sure if you were referring to the original Federal stove, the 264 or the 288 but as I said a lot of the same principles apply. If you can have the blower repaired ( its over a hundred if you can find a new one ) the heat magnification is multiplied so much its hard to believe compared to no blower.
Good luck, the Federals got some bad press but if you can stand to redo the caulking and a few minor items they perform admirably. BTW, the 288's at least mine have the blower in the rear with a magnetic sensor that's placed higher up on the stove to maximize efficiency. If I recall they could be mounted either to the side or the rear. Lastly, these stoves perform better when run a bit hot. However when you start your fires remember they are cast iron and can crack if fired too quickly. The 264's supposedly ran at 78 % efficiency at 67,000 BTU's'. The 288's were rated at 85,000 BTU's. Weights respectively were 441 lbs for the 264 and 612 lbs for the 288's.. The 288's could burn coal or wood. If burning coal there was a cast iron strainer that was put in place of the cat converter. You also had to put optional inside sides when burning coal to protect the firebox. I never burned coal but bought the sides and the strainer anyway in case I decided to do so. I bought mine new to the tune of over $ 1,000. A lot of money in the mid 80's.


----------



## milkman

I've got this one, about 20 yrs. old, I resealed with stove cement and new ropes and it runs like it did when new. I replaced the original catalyst last year, we really like it and the only thing that I can think of that could be improved is a stronger blower.

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachm...ning-equipment/268872d1356096739-dscf3169-jpg


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## ngzcaz

milkman said:


> I've got this one, about 20 yrs. old, I resealed with stove cement and new ropes and it runs like it did when new. I replaced the original catalyst last year, we really like it and the only thing that I can think of that could be improved is a stronger blower.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/attachm...ning-equipment/268872d1356096739-dscf3169-jpg



And here I thought I was the only one to spend the time doing the brick for a floor for the stove  Is that the 264 ? Nice brass along the top. You did a nice job with the brick. :msp_thumbup: And I'm still on my first cat.. We used it hard for about 12 years b-4 we switched to oil then barely used it. When we roast hot dogs in the middle of winter a few times a year we obviously open the twin doors and when we are done we close it up and stay down a few hours watching the flames thru the glass doors. Very soothing..


----------



## Wood Doctor

*Try to Repair that Blower*

A few years ago my blower quit working on my 288. I decided to see if I could repair it. Actually, it turns out that the repair is usually a piece of cake. The blower's motor bearings eventually make it impossible for the motor to crank the little squirrel cage at the start.

(1) Remove the blower housing from the stove by removing the machine screws and take it all to your workbench.
(2) Remove the motor from the housing and clean out all the dust buildup.
(3) Oil the bearings with ordinary 5w30 motor oil. You will likely note an immediate improvement in how easy the armature will turn.
(4) You can use a jumper wire to bypass the magnetic thermal switch to see if she spins. Reassemble the motor to the cage.
(4) Rebolt the housing to the stove.

Usually, the motor is not burned out. It's only the bearings that need a lube. I usually do this about every two or three years as a standard maintenance step.


----------



## ngzcaz

Wood Doctor said:


> A few years ago my blower quit working on my 288. I decided to see if I could repair it. Actually, it turns out that the repair is usually a piece of cake. The blower's motor bearings eventually make it impossible for the motor to crank the little squirrel cage at the start.
> 
> (1) Remove the blower housing from the stove by removing the machine screws and take it all to your workbench.
> (2) Remove the motor from the housing and clean out all the dust buildup.
> (3) Oil the bearings with ordinary 5w30 motor oil. You will likely note an immediate improvement in how easy the armature will turn.
> (4) You can use a jumper wire to bypass the magnetic thermal switch to see if she spins. Reassemble the motor to the cage.
> (4) Rebolt the housing to the stove.
> 
> Usually, the motor is not burned out. It's only the bearings that need a lube. I usually do this about every two or three years as a standard maintenance step.




Thanks for the tip.. I guess my 1986 is due for an oiling/cleaning ?? :msp_biggrin::msp_rolleyes:


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## milkman

ngzcaz said:


> And here I thought I was the only one to spend the time doing the brick for a floor for the stove  Is that the 264 ? Nice brass along the top. You did a nice job with the brick. :msp_thumbup:



This is the 2462, the extra large of the 246- series. I was on the road and a neighbor built the base raised on 2X6 and plywood platform, helps with loading the stove. I thought that the choice of brick that the wife picked out would be awful, shows what I know. I used to have an airtight stove that didn't have an ash pan and I said never again. This one has the pan and a grate so I can take them out even with a full fire going.


----------



## ngzcaz

milkman said:


> This is the 2462, the extra large of the 246- series. I was on the road and a neighbor built the base raised on 2X6 and plywood platform, helps with loading the stove. I thought that the choice of brick that the wife picked out would be awful, shows what I know. I used to have an airtight stove that didn't have an ash pan and I said never again. This one has the pan and a grate so I can take them out even with a full fire going.



Agree... the shaker grate and ash pan makes it so much easier to remove than moving the hot fire to one side of the stove and then try to carefully put hot ash in a bucket. Just shake the grate a couple of times then let the ashes cool off..then take the whole pan outside and dump it. The mess stays in the pan. Everyone knows what happens when you put hot ash in a bucket no matter how carefully... some of it goes up in the air and around the room. I made a corner raised platform as well. Laid the outer brick and then poured concrete level with the three course high brick. I then laid the pattern much like your top. Only downside is that its tough to keep the brick clean since its a cracked design. If I had to do it over I would put on a slate top. :msp_biggrin:


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## jamesbrough

Hi guys I just got a 
Dutchwest india 263476 I believe 25 1/2 wide at top 

Cleaned it up some everything moves everything needs new seals and thr back wall plate got some rot it looks like 

Can anyone look at the pics and tell me if I have everything or what I have and what I need 
first wood stove I've ever owned 
going to be burning wood no coal 

I understand the ash rockers 
I don't understand the air tubes? And the door behind the round piece going to the exhaust 
also how critical is the rear panel its got a hole in it inside of stove 
thanks guys any helps appreciated 
got it at a estate sale for 100$ 
god is it heavy


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## Wood Doctor

The rear panel should be replaced with 1/4" or better yet, 5/16" plate steel. You can buy the steel from a welding shop that fits perfectly and then drill your own holes for the two bolts that hang it. This stove looks to be different from mine because mine does not have the grate you show but simply two rotating ash rocker drops for the pan underneath. However, mine is the 288, so your design is a bit different.

I'd still replace that back panel. Yes, these stoves are heavy. Lots of cast iron went into them. Trace back this thread to look at other pics. Mine will actually accept a 25" log upon command. My first fire of the year may be tomorrow morning.


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## jamesbrough

Thanks for the info I'll definitely make a new one I'm very mechanical and weld steel and even cast I'm going to be taking apart sand blasting and painting it put it back together redoing all the sealing gaskets and the sealing in the top
What should I be using to seal the edges at the top I can look in the vents and see that it's cracked also is there any good paint to use that I can get I don't want to use something cheap and then end up having to redo it please let me know what I should use or what is better and what I shouldn't use I know it has to be a high heat paint but I don't want to use just old Rustoleum high heat 
My biggest questions about the air tubes? coming out under the cat do they connect to another part or I could run a pipe cleaner through it anyone know anywhere I could get a spark screen 2 I don't have that thanks a bunch guys I'm on page 7 and still reading


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## Wood Doctor

I have never used high-temp paint on my Federal Airtight 288. I also have no air tubes that you describe. That all seems like high tech stuff that you do not need.


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## jamesbrough

I found the post where u put up pics of yours but there broken links any chance I can take a look?

This one has a bit of surface rust the wife thinks it's ugly so I have to pretty it up and prove her wrong it's going to be right in the corner of our living room so it has to look good


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## Wood Doctor

Ruttland stove polish will take care of the surface rust. When you are all through, the stove installation might look like this:


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## jamesbrough

Pretty nice now yours is the bigger one than mine and I saw a chart that says mine has more but output ? 
I live outside north of Philadelphia and single home built in 1835 17 wide 60 some long brick walls with plaster coat no wood plaster on brick 
Roughly 1100sq 
ft and I plan on this heating the house I have plenty of seasoned wood available so that's no issue 
From what I read it might be able to do it 
Other source of heat is a oil boiler from the 60s and we spent 2200$ on oil from nov to march last year I put in a electric water heAter and havnt used oil since and don't want to one fact is that the oil tank is buried and takes on water 
Problem for another day lol

Thanks a much man. How does much yours heat?


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## Wood Doctor

Mine heats about half the house. The bottom level is a walk-out basement and that's where it rests--all 600 lb. These stoves were built to last a lifetime. I bought mine in 1987 when I bought the house and I've never left it. I figure it saves me about $500 a year on my heating bill.

My modifications to the stove have been minimal. I abandoned the Cat combustor by building a shelf using angle iron and then choking the flue using a square plate with a bunch of holes in it to allow the gases to escape, similar to the coal-burning flue insert that came with the stove. It seems to work well and is easy to clean. See my Pics earlier.

The blower (if you have one) will need annual oiling of the bearings or it will freeze up. I just had the chimney scraped by a pro, and he does this annually also. It's worth it. 

Buying parts for these stoves has become almost impossible due to their age. The special glass for the doors costs an arm and a leg. Glaziers don't like to fool with it so they price it sky high. Figure $130 per pane or more. Using small angle iron I also made glass pane holders when the originals burned out. Despite all of this repair, I still rate the stove highly because many stove owners have done more than I have to keep their stoves operating.

BTW, you can spin polish the brass valves and handles using a drill press and fine sand paper. Afterwards, they shine beautifully. That takes only about a half hour.


----------



## jamesbrough

I'm currently trying to figure out my measurements and clearances for the installation in the corner it's a solid brick wall and have to 2" slate underneath
The manual I found says I can get 12" from corners with a heat shield? Walls are solid brick 22" thick should be fun to punch through I can't find something reasonably priced to go thru the wall I was thinking a piece of double wall to go through and then single the rest of the way up can't find anywhere local where I can just go look at exhaust pieces and say thats what I need 

Also I need the oval to round adaptor for the stove anyone know where I can get one of those? 
Here's a pic just pulled the wood paneling off I bottom of the wall and the furing strips gotta remove the wall paper and paint 
Should I use high heat on the walls?

Thanks


----------



## jamesbrough

Thought I would update










Stove all cleaned up and pad finished 
Just gotta get it inside and run a chimney now 
Gettin cold quick
Lol
Thanks guys


----------



## Wood Doctor

Needless to say, a clean chimney with a good draft is very important. One of the really nice things about this stove is that it has all the controls that you need to control the fire. But, you need a good chimney to be able to do that.

That's a beautiful finish on this stove. Perhaps I need to work on mine and shape it up.


----------



## jamesbrough

Rustoleum engine enamel says its good for 2k 
Cleaned the glass with Rutland glass cleaner a nd it looks brand new 
I blasted it first with coal slang 
I am now looking for a oval to round adapter know where I can get a good quality one? Everything I find seems super cheap and no where local stocks them to see the quality the ones online look like super cheap thin sheet metal 
Its hitting 35 here tonight and no heat so im rushing to install

Thanks again


----------



## mattruck

Can anyone help? I have a Federal Airtight 264cl(r). My Baffle is broken and I'm looking to try to replace it. I'm trying to find a part number for it but, I cant find and prints or layouts for my stove anywhere on the web. Everything comes back with the 264CCl, and the baffle for the two stoves are very different. Any suggestions?


----------



## Wood Doctor

Black Swan? That use to be a buzz word for Federal Airtight parts. Try Google.


----------



## jamesbrough

Finally up and running 






How necessary aee the rocker grate covers to burn wood ?
Got a good burn last nite 

Alot of fall through of little stuff and ash 
Maybe that stops this ?


----------



## mtudee

So I have not made it all the way through this thread, but I thought I would post pics of the early 1980s FA288 that came with my new house. Still trying to learn about catalytic stoves and the best way to run them (family has always had non-cat stoves). Based on my understanding my stove currently doesnt have a catalytic combustor in it.


----------



## Wood Doctor

Yes, that is a catalytic stove. The cylindrical combustor cartridge is missing in the first picture above. It rests on that collar lip. You may have also received a cast iron plate that rests there and is recommended when burning coal. These burn out in time, along with the collar. If your collar is till intact, you can make a choke, similar to the coal burning plate that will increase efficiency immensely and operate almost as well as a combustor cartridge. In my case and as shown in earlier posts, I replaced the burned out collar and designed a plate steel choke with numerous holes drilled to encourage secondary combustion. Otherwise, you will be letting most of your heat escape up the chimney and virtually no secondary combustion will exist. 

Here is the choke that came with the stove for burning coal:




Without the combustor, this is far better than nothing at all. It will get red hot and burn off smoke gases.

The main flue block-off in the back swivels and allows you to close off the start-up flue so that when the fire gets hot, these gases are forced through the combustor (or my steel choke). That produces the secondary combustion that cleans the smoke before it goes through the main stove pipe. You will find that if it works properly, there will be no need to close off the damper. The top of the stove will get very hot and boil water without difficulty. Your thermometer will sometimes reach 1500 F.


----------



## jamesbrough

Do you have the grate covers in your stove wood doctor?


----------



## Wood Doctor

jamesbrough said:


> Do you have the grate covers in your stove wood doctor?


I don't think so. I just have the swivels that dump the ashes into the ash pan below. They allow air to flow through the front air valve and help keep the fire going along with the side valve above the loading door. I generally leave that front valve and the side valve open about 1/4", and that air flow prevents cinder build up when the fire dies down. Closing them both can almost choke the fire completely out. I also operate without the front vertical grate shown in the last Pic above.

One of the selling points of this stove was the complete control of the fire without the need of a stove pipe damper. However, it takes some practice, and the amount of your chimney draft is another factor. My draft is enormous because my chimney is so tall and I live near the top of a hill. Many buyers found this stove too complicated to run, and that may have led to its demise. As they criticized Mozart, "too many notes".


----------



## jamesbrough

Im having a problem with igniting the fire with out smoking out the house 
Too much ash in fire box? 
I've all ways closed the "coal" intake on the bottom door


----------



## Wood Doctor

jamesbrough said:


> Im having a problem with igniting the fire with out smoking out the house. Too much ash in fire box?
> I've all ways closed the "coal" intake on the bottom door.


Keep that bottom center valve open, especially when lighting the fire. In fact, I leave the bottom door ajar for the first five minutes, holding it open with one of the brass/iron handles. The draft will try to pull the bottom door closed. I also dump the ashes almost always between fires. It's the air coming in from below that sets up the draft needed to start the fire and send the smoke up the chimney at start-up.

Another technique that works for me is a top-down fire. Start with two or three logs lying flat to the bottom with nothing underneath. Now add a layer of kindling on top with corrugated cardboard and newspapers. Wrap newspapers around kindling sticks. Then put one or two small logs on that. Open the bottom door a little, keep it ajar, and light side with the loading door open. Close the loading door. The fuel on top burns first, drops hot coals below, and that sets the big bottom logs afire. Now close the the front door completely. Add two more logs in 30 minutes, and you are on your way.


----------



## jamesbrough

I've been doing a lot of reading trying to figure out how to stop it and the latest thing I will try other than your advice is to start the fire in the far end opposite of loading door I've read these types of stoves like to burn the wood like a cigar start in at the far end and going to the loading door 
Do you know if this theory is correct? 
My chimney os all inside except for 5' above the roof on a flat roof with nothing around but a tree 40ft or so away 

This is my primary heat source 
it really Bugs the heck out of me in the am on a hot bed of coals getting it to reignite


----------



## jamesbrough

Well I feel pretty stupid 
Figured it out and figured I post so no one makes the same stupid mistake I did 
Well I bought the triple wall duravent plus stainless chimney 5 3 ft pieces and a cap slightly used for 300$ 
The cap was missing the spark screen so I decided I have stainless steel screen in the basement 

Well a month later and the screen was completely clogged up with creosote the whole chimney is lined with creosote 
Creosote starred dripping into the damper I noticed today when I took the lid off today to investigate then cleaned entirely 're assembled and bam smoke pouring out 
Dumped water on the just lit kindling and decided t o go onto roof and pull the cap when I noticed it

Just a fyi if anyones ever dumb like me lol

1st wood stove ever but im getting the hang of it


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## Wood Doctor

Creosote is caused by cold fires. Even dry wood can cause creosote when you burn a fire without sufficient oxygen that causes cold, smoldering fires. Many people do not know that water is a byproduct of the combustion of any fossil fuel. Moist, green wood with a high water content can produce more creosote, but dry wood can also do it.


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## mtudee

Wood Doctor, Thanks for the info. I ordered a new combustor and temperature probe, as my temp probe didn't seem to have any numbers on it (just polished brass on top). I will have to see how it fires once I get all the parts. Thanks again!


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## DrewUth

Hi all-

This thread is still alive!

I'm new here, but not really new to these stoves. My grandparents had a 264CCL in their log cabin my whole childhood. When my grandfather passed about 5 years ago, my grandmother decided she wanted a gas log, and I got the 264 to go in my garage. Unfortunately, with my grandfather gone I had no instruction on how to run it and it took 3 seasons to learn how to make it work properly. Part of that was compounded by the fact that the catalyst damper was rusted shut and I was trying to start fires through the catalyst! Being a shop heater only, I simply wired that damper open (as the shaft broke when I tried to free it) and that's how I've run it for the past two years.

Last year, my wife and I happened across a Napoleon insert to try and cut down on our oil bills in our house. I didn't want to install the old family 264 in the house as it was leaky and needed plenty of work. While the Napoleon is a wonderful stove, and burns great, it just did not have nearly the output needed to heat our roughly 2000 square foot, poorly laid out and poorly insulated home. It was a huge help through last winter, but I wanted something a bit bigger that I could install as a free standing unit for this season. 

So I've been hunting Craigslist for months, and about a month ago found the right deal and snapped up a lightly used 264CCL for $150. It was in need of some good TLC,(center fixed grate replacement, new gaskets, etc) but thankfully having a "parts stove" in the shop has made my "restoration" process much easier. I am very excited to install it in a few weeks! The catalyst is in great shape, and it needed the same damper door that was rusted shut on my other one freed up. Luckily, with a few years more patience and wisdom under my belt I spent 3 evenings with a propane torch and PB Blaster, and was able to free the frozen shafts and remove them. Cleaned on the wire wheel and lubed with Anti-Seize, everything works good as new again. This thread helped me figure out the proper way to re-seal the top of the stove- waiting on my tub of cement to arrive as we speak, as the bead I laid on with the tube of gasket cement was definitely not going to do the trick haha! 

Anyway, sorry for the novel. One quick question- thoughts on whether I should seal off the opening to the fireplace behind it? I am inclined to mount a steel plate there and seal it off tight, I don't want to lose any radiant heat. 

Thanks again for the great thread! I can't wait to tear into my garage stove now and get it tuned up and heating better with all the knowledge I've gained restoring the one for inside my house. Cheers from Southern NJ.


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## Wood Doctor

My Federal 288 is sealed off:




Otherwise you will lose warm air up the chimney. Most of the time my stove's doors are closed as it heats the house.


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## DrewUth

Just lit mine up outside for the first fire last evening after the "restoration". Sorry for no pics- it was dark, I will get some today or tomorrow. Burned great! It took a bit to break past 400*, but I think that was due to the wood I loaded in it at first. I loaded some more in, it got to 550* in good time, then I closed the damper to see if the catalyst would light. It did, and the temps JUMPED to about 850* in about 15 mins, but then just kind of hung there between 800-850 for a while. So I opened the damper back up and packed if full of more wood, let it burn for about 5 minutes that way and then shut it again (probe still at about 800*). Then it REALLY started cookin'- shot right up to 1100* and hung there. I was very happy.

Don't worry- I let it take it's time getting to 400*, about two hours. I needed to cure the cement used for the top and all the new gaskets. I already seasoned the new center grate in the oven to 500*, so I knew that would be ok. I ran the blower too to make sure there were no internal leaks and I am happy to say that once the paint baked, there were no fumes or funny smells at all. All of that was done by about the time it hit 600*. All of this happened in the driveway with only 5' of stovepipe as well, I can't wait to see how it pulls when I connect it to my 35"+ liner in the house chimney!

I am beyond excited to get it installed and feel the heat inside, however it may have to wait a week. Wife and I are headed to Gettysburg this weekend for the Apple Harvest Festival, and I have to get the truck and camper ready for the ride- the camper is still winterized from last year! seems silly to flush it out for a weekend only to winterize it again right after, but oh well.


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## Wood Doctor

When it gets cold and the wind blows out of the north, I can sometimes reach 1450 F. The stronger the north wind, the stronger the draft and the hotter the stove burns. Melting aluminum cans down to nothing with this stove is no problem when you go over 1200 F.


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## Butterstove

Hello Everyone,
This is my first post. I've enjoyed reading this thread, lots of good information! I recently bought a 264ccl off of Craigslist for $250. Seems to be in good shape with plenty of life left on the cat combustor. I would like to install it in my fireplace and will need to line the chimney first with a stainless steel liner. The two questions I have are: 1) What size chimney liner is needed? The plate on the back of the stove says "vent into a minimum 6" stove pipe"; the manual says the stove "can vent into an 8" diameter chimney flue or 8"x8" masonry flue". I would like to install the 6" diameter liner if this is acceptable, no ovalizing and less expensive. I will insulate the liner. Question 2) What kind of Tee do you guys have behind your stoves that makes the transition from horizontal (about 6" oval) to vertical chimney liner? I can only find round tees online or tees that are oval on the upside with round snouts. The picture attached shows a tee but I would like to replace it. I don't think I will have room to do an oval to round adapter behind the stove. What did you guys do? Thanks in advance! I will attach a few pics. I will be cleaning it up, painting, sealing and polishing before install and will upload pics then.


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## DrewUth

I have a few questions after running mine for a few days now: (Please help Mr. Wood Doctor!)

1. Is there any harm in running it without the cat? Keeping it around 600* or so? The cat operation is a lot for the wife to wrap her head around just yet, so when she is home on her own it just runs like a regular stove.
2. When I am going to leave it for hours- like if I go out, or when I go to bed, is there any harm in leaving the cat engaged, knowing that it may drop down to below 500* before I get back to relight it? For example...Sunday night before bed, the stove was running at 900* with the cat (needed to be reloaded). I disengaged the cat, loaded it up and dampered it down, and went to bed (toasty warm) at 11:00. When I came down at 6:30 the next morning, the stove was around 250* with a nice bed of coals. Now yesterday, I ran the cat all afternoon (happily cooking away at 1200-1400*), loaded the stove at 11 before bed, and it was at 1250* or so when I dampered it down and went to bed, leaving the cat engaged this time. 6:45 this morning the stove was 450*+ with about the same amount of coals. Is it ok to leave the cat engaged like this? It seems like it was fine but I want to know if there is any long term damage to the cat possible.
3. When I had it apart, I disassembled, wire brushed/cleaned and reassembled the cat damper pieces with anti-seize so it worked nice and smoothly, as it was all frozen solid when I got it. The anti-seize baked off after the first fire, and now it can be a little crotchety to operate the cat damper. Should I be concerned?

Here are some pictures for your viewing pleasure!


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## olympyk_999

DrewUth said:


> I have a few questions after running mine for a few days now: (Please help Mr. Wood Doctor!)
> 
> 1. Is there any harm in running it without the cat? Keeping it around 600* or so? The cat operation is a lot for the wife to wrap her head around just yet, so when she is home on her own it just runs like a regular stove.
> 2. When I am going to leave it for hours- like if I go out, or when I go to bed, is there any harm in leaving the cat engaged, knowing that it may drop down to below 500* before I get back to relight it? For example...Sunday night before bed, the stove was running at 900* with the cat (needed to be reloaded). I disengaged the cat, loaded it up and dampered it down, and went to bed (toasty warm) at 11:00. When I came down at 6:30 the next morning, the stove was around 250* with a nice bed of coals. Now yesterday, I ran the cat all afternoon (happily cooking away at 1200-1400*), loaded the stove at 11 before bed, and it was at 1250* or so when I dampered it down and went to bed, leaving the cat engaged this time. 6:45 this morning the stove was 450*+ with about the same amount of coals. Is it ok to leave the cat engaged like this? It seems like it was fine but I want to know if there is any long term damage to the cat possible.
> 3. When I had it apart, I disassembled, wire brushed/cleaned and reassembled the cat damper pieces with anti-seize so it worked nice and smoothly, as it was all frozen solid when I got it. The anti-seize baked off after the first fire, and now it can be a little crotchety to operate the cat damper. Should I be concerned?
> 
> Here are some pictures for your viewing pleasure!
> View attachment 454804
> View attachment 454805
> View attachment 454806
> View attachment 454807
> View attachment 454808
> View attachment 454809


 I don't have a federal...mines a VC Dutch west...basically the same other than primary intake...
these are meant to run with the "cat damper" closed...only to be open when loading/starting the fire...
when I start mine I have it open and I also open the ash door to help get it drafting, then close the ash door and let the wood get going good then shut the cat damper, and control fire with primary intake...secondary stay set at around 1/2- 3/4 of a turn out.
your cat is not always going to be "active" its just the way it works...when its low on wood or temp is down it wont be active...no harm in have the cat damper engaged when its not "active", if it wasn't engaged you would just send all the heat up the stack....
I should also mention my cat has been removed...was removed by previous owner, and I never felt the need to replace it...it still "reburns" even with out the cat just fine...usually just doesn't start working until it hits around 900, and I burn it 24/7 during heating season...no problems.
I would be concerned with operating it at the high end (1200+) for any extended amount of time though, as it likes to warp the baffles...1200 is the hottest I like to run mine...but I usually don't keep it there for long.

as for the cat damper...I don't know what you used for anti seize...but Loctite Nickel anti seize is good up to 2400 degrees, its nickel/graphite...if not then maybe try a graphite base lubricant?


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## DrewUth

olympyk_999 said:


> I don't have a federal...mines a VC Dutch west...basically the same other than primary intake...
> these are meant to run with the "cat damper" closed...only to be open when loading/starting the fire...
> when I start mine I have it open and I also open the ash door to help get it drafting, then close the ash door and let the wood get going good then shut the cat damper, and control fire with primary intake...secondary stay set at around 1/2- 3/4 of a turn out.
> your cat is not always going to be "active" its just the way it works...when its low on wood or temp is down it wont be active...no harm in have the cat damper engaged when its not "active", if it wasn't engaged you would just send all the heat up the stack....
> I should also mention my cat has been removed...was removed by previous owner, and I never felt the need to replace it...it still "reburns" even with out the cat just fine...usually just doesn't start working until it hits around 900, and I burn it 24/7 during heating season...no problems.
> I would be concerned with operating it at the high end (1200+) for any extended amount of time though, as it likes to warp the baffles...1200 is the hottest I like to run mine...but I usually don't keep it there for long.
> 
> as for the cat damper...I don't know what you used for anti seize...but Loctite Nickel anti seize is good up to 2400 degrees, its nickel/graphite...if not then maybe try a graphite base lubricant?



I used the permatex silver stuff, but you're right- graphite would be great. They also make a gold formula (permatex). I am just not too keen on popping the top of the stove off again, and having to go through more furnace cement sealing it down again. I sure wish there was a rope gasket for the top so sealing it wasn't such a pain!

So everything I thought I knew about the cat was that I shouldn't flip the damper to utilize it until after I hit 600* plus. You're saying I can have that damper flipped all the time, just not when I'm loading it or first starting it? I have had luck loading fresh wood in with the cat damper shut, but I thought that when the stove was cold the draft wouldn't be strong enough to go through the cat. But I see what you're saying, and that certainly makes it easier!


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## olympyk_999

DrewUth said:


> I thought that when the stove was cold the draft wouldn't be strong enough to go through the cat


I don't shut the cat damper until the wood is going good...(stack temp around 600 on the outside)
it would take quite a while for the temp probe in the middle of the stove to reach 600 with the cat damper wide open, since the is a baffle between the fire and the probe...all of the heat goes up the stack and not towards the probe...


DrewUth said:


> I sure wish there was a rope gasket for the top so sealing it wasn't such a pain


mine has a rope gasket...the gasket is in the top panel and seals on the rim of the secondary combustion chamber...not sure if the federal's are the same?...VC's have the "air jacket" (space around the firebox) for forced hot air, which is why the secondary combustion chamber doesn't take up the whole top of the stove...


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## DrewUth

olympyk_999 said:


> I don't shut the cat damper until the wood is going good...(stack temp around 600 on the outside)
> it would take quite a while for the temp probe in the middle of the stove to reach 600 with the cat damper wide open, since the is a baffle between the fire and the probe...all of the heat goes up the stack and not towards the probe...



Ah, you know I never thought about stack temp vs probe temp. Thats a good point regarding how the probe is essentially blocked off by the open damper. It does take a while to get it to 600*.



olympyk_999 said:


> mine has a rope gasket...the gasket is in the top panel and seals on the rim of the secondary combustion chamber...not sure if the federal's are the same?...VC's have the "air jacket" (space around the firebox) for forced hot air, which is why the secondary combustion chamber doesn't take up the whole top of the stove...



Maybe I need to add a rope gasket. I had a 5/8" wide by nearly 1/4" deep groove in the top that, from reading this thread, I was under the impression needed to be filled completely with furnace cement to seal to the rims of the different chambers. I do have the two chambers on either side of the secondary combustion for forced hot air. There was no rope gasket in it when I took it apart, and I did post earlier about just using cement and no one corrected me, so I went ahead and did it that way. I bought a gasket kit for it and it came with plenty to do all the doors, there was some left over but the instructions didn't say a thing about the top. I sure thought real hard about adding some, now I am again.


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## olympyk_999

olympyk_999 said:


> I don't shut the cat damper until the wood is going good...(stack temp around 600 on the outside)
> it would take quite a while for the temp probe in the middle of the stove to reach 600 with the cat damper wide open, since the is a baffle between the fire and the probe...all of the heat goes up the stack and not towards the probe...
> 
> mine has a rope gasket...the gasket is in the top panel and seals on the rim of the secondary combustion chamber...not sure if the federal's are the same?...VC's have the "air jacket" (space around the firebox) for forced hot air, which is why the secondary combustion chamber doesn't take up the whole top of the stove...





DrewUth said:


> Ah, you know I never thought about stack temp vs probe temp. Thats a good point regarding how the probe is essentially blocked off by the open damper. It does take a while to get it to 600*.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I need to add a rope gasket. I had a 5/8" wide by nearly 1/4" deep groove in the top that, from reading this thread, I was under the impression needed to be filled completely with furnace cement to seal to the rims of the different chambers. I do have the two chambers on either side of the secondary combustion for forced hot air. There was no rope gasket in it when I took it apart, and I did post earlier about just using cement and no one corrected me, so I went ahead and did it that way. I bought a gasket kit for it and it came with plenty to do all the doors, there was some left over but the instructions didn't say a thing about the top. I sure thought real hard about adding some, now I am again.


 its a good size rope gasket that goes in there...then just the 4 bolts hold the top down ...easy for cleaning as my stove doesn't have the little cat access plate in the middle of the top...so its the only way someone would be able to access the cat on my stove
heres the manual for my stove...operation is basically the same other than air controls...http://www.hayneedle.com/images/PDF/NED220.pdf


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## DrewUth

Well let me tell you, that manual has a great deal more information in it than mine. Thanks for that. While much of it is not applicable, a large portion of it is. I agree that since I have the removable plate for catalyst inspection, it is likely that rope was not used for my top plate. That being said...I'm sure I could put some in next time I have it apart to ensure it is even better sealed. Thanks!


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## DrewUth

I loaded it up with some dry Poplar I have for the "shoulder season"...let it rip for a half hour and it was up to 600*, closed the damper, decreased the air and lit up the cat and she smoked up to 1400* in about 10 mins!  Too hot, even with the intakes shut it only dropped about 500* (I think it's sucking air in the front doors a bit) so I had to open the damper back up and just run it without the cat.


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## olympyk_999

DrewUth said:


> I loaded it up with some dry Poplar I have for the "shoulder season"...let it rip for a half hour and it was up to 600*, closed the damper, decreased the air and lit up the cat and she smoked up to 1400* in about 10 mins!  Too hot, even with the intakes shut it only dropped about 500* (I think it's sucking air in the front doors a bit) so I had to open the damper back up and just run it without the cat.


There was wood left after ripping it full bore with the damper open for a half hour? Especially poplar?
Was that 600 on the outside of the stack or on the cat probe in the stove?


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## DrewUth

Yup. I loaded it, lit it, about 15 mins later threw some more in (just splitter chunks- not even real splits) and 15 mins later it was at 600* on the probe. I thought, cool- I'll throttle her down, engage the cat like I have been. But the poplar was HOTTTT and it shot up to 1400 wayyyyy faster than usual.


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## olympyk_999

again...


olympyk_999 said:


> it would take quite a while for the temp probe in the middle of the stove to reach 600 with the cat damper wide open, since the is a baffle between the fire and the probe...all of the heat goes up the stack and not towards the probe...


that probe is there to tell you when the cat is engaged NOT when to engage it...the actual fire box temp was way higher than 600 when you shut the damper, shutting it just sent the heat directly through the cat making the probe temp shoot up...
you're letting it get too hot before shutting the damper!


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## olympyk_999

*Damper Function
*
The *Damper *is operated by moving the handle on the upper left side of the stove. (Fig. 24) It has two positions: OPEN, to start the fire and load fuel, and CLOSED, for greatest efficiency and heat. When the damper is closed, exhaust gases pass through an insulated catalytic burner before flowing into the chimney.
Use the door insert handle to rotate the damper handle. Turn it counterclockwise to open the damper and clockwise to close it. You will feel resistance as the damper mechanism engages into the open (counterclockwise) position.
The stove damper *must *be open when you start a fire, load fuel, or before you open either door for any reason

this is from the manual...open for starting and loading...30 minutes is well beyond starting


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## DrewUth

Ok ok, I dig it. But I have closed it "too soon" and seen nothing but smoke out of the chimney and the probe not rising.


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## Wood Doctor

I must be driving the Cadillac. My 288 has a blower with a thermostat that sticks to the lower right side of the stove with a magnet. I start the fire and then wait until that thermostat kicks on the blower. When it does, I know the fire is ready for the block off to be closed. Sometimes I throw in a dry log and then close it, but regardless, that thermostat coupled with the blower is a great alarm clock. I can't recall it ever going off with the flue gases below 500 F.


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## webgurl

Thank you SO much for posting this photo. Until I have a chance to take one of mine, I am showing this to folks.

*Mine was installed in my brand new home in 1989 and HAS NEVER BEEN LIT.* I want to swap it out for a pellet stove insert, and *hope to sell this one *provided the installers can take it out carefully. *It is exactly as you see here but in pristine condition....*

Can anyone point me to the proper user and installation manuals online anywhere? I'm sure mine are in the house somewhere but can't put my finger on them at the moment.

It is also nice to know that since I only have one handle, they can be bought here:
http://www.hechlers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1042




Wood Doctor said:


> Finding a used one of these for little cost is truly fortunate. Keep us posted on events and feel free to ask any question as you move along. Here's my beast:


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## webgurl

I have determined that mine is a later model than above, with the vent across the whole top, so it's a c. 1990-1993 model which makes sense because we got it after moving in.


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## olympyk_999

webgurl said:


> I have determined that mine is a later model than above, with the vent across the whole top, so it's a c. 1990-1993 model which makes sense because we got it after moving in.


who buys a wood stove, to not use it?


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## webgurl

olympyk_999 said:


> who buys a wood stove, to not use it?


I became a widow and was unable to chop and load wood into myself as I have a disability... sorry. I figure the pellets are smaller and I can just pour into a hod only whatever I can carry even if it means several trips.


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## webgurl

That said I will likely sell it for cheap, but it would have to be someone nearby in Mass or NH.


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## Wood Doctor

webgurl said:


> That said I will likely sell it for cheap, but it would have to be someone nearby in Mass or NH.


I can understand that. My 288 weighs about 600 lb. They are not easy to ship. Either is a piano, but a piano doesn't heat a house very well.


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## webgurl

Wood Doctor said:


> I can understand that. My 288 weighs about 600 lb. They are not easy to ship. Either is a piano, but a piano doesn't heat a house very well.


Well I hope I answered the question about why it was never lit. I worked full time also and did not want it on while I wasn't here.


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## webgurl

The stove shoppe came out to measure and they seem to think the new pellet insert will fit.
The tech also loved the stove (he even knew the model was a Consolidated Dutchwest Woodstove FA264CCL) and that it was pristine, not a speck of indication it had ever been burned. He said they could remove it and keep it intact so that I could sell it. It is a 1990+ model and has a converter so it's compliant.
I have found a detailed manual for it here: http://www.discountstove.com/uploads/5/2/6/0/52607107/267c_manual.pdf
Unless they come back and tell me the pellet insert I chose won't fit, I'm going to put it up for sale.
If you are interested, send me a PM and will send you the name of the shoppe where you can make arrangements to see it.


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## Wood Doctor

If I owned that 264CCL, I would never sell it, nor would I trade it out for a pellet stove. I have no choice but to ask you why you are doing this. Lady, as shown below while relaxing in front of her 288, would also like to know:


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## webgurl

Because I am not able to chop and stack wood. But I can take pellets from a barrel with a scoop and put them in a bucket and carry in whatever I can a bit at a time.
I am selling this as they said the new pellet insert will fit. It's coming on the 9th of November. So basically this is a brand new stove which I am told can also be used as a standalone if you put feet on it.


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## Wood Doctor

webgurl said:


> Because I am not able to chop and stack wood. But I can take pellets from a barrel with a scoop and put them in a bucket and carry in whatever I can a bit at a time.
> I am selling this as they said the new pellet insert will fit. It's coming on the 9th of November. So basically this is a brand new stove which I am told can also be used as a standalone if you put feet on it.


But, you have to buy the pellets. Nothing is free. Two truckloads of dry firewood delivered and stacked, about a cord and a half, would cost you $240 in Nebraska. That's what my customers pay me.


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## I brew beer

Well, that tool awhile to read. I just bought a clean looking 264 off CL for $300. I am waiting for my liner and other parts to arrive. I need to ship back a bunch of parts, maybe. Extra parts include the stock center gs one off rill (i have a fabricated one that seems to work) and the baffle under the combuster. Mine has a small inch or two crack--could last a long time. The $69 gasket set is a waste as i have only the doors to do and the damper. I plan on going through the flu to get to the damper, might be imprecise placement but better than nothing. The stove was in use. I was so amped up i went to garage and immediately broke a bolt holding the glass in: gaskets are gd. I was just trying to straighten the frame out. I guess I will buy some rope and cement today to put the gaskets in. I ll return the $210 blower for the faso one off electric motor warehouse for $65. I also managed a screen fo $45 on ebay. I will paint it a 3rd time, 3 gaskets, new clean air cat $70, and put it to use. It was going to be replaced, but if it works well for my 2300 center hall colonial i ll keep it. I also ordered the stove pipe damper, hopefuy she's airtight.


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## Wood Doctor

Welcome to the forum. You are saving a good stove. My 288 has been running since 1987. The 264 is just a slightly smaller version. You have to get the hang of using it, but once you master it, I think you will like it.

Biggest squawk most people have is the cat combustion, but read back earlier in this thread and you will see how I got around it with very little loss in efficiency.


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## I brew beer

Thanks, I have burned for 13 years: 44 gallon (barrel) stove and an insert. The insert was noncat and hardly ever engaged the "after burner," always had the fan on to boot. I imagine my efficiency was about $40% on the insert. Hopefully, it all works out. I like the stove, Like an idiot a snapped the bolt. The door case for the glass. I think cement will probably work out. It's easier enough to monitor. One thing from this forum, is leave well enough alone. I got money into it, so I have to get use out of it. I think about $500: 300 for stove, $100 for blower, (incl. restocking fee of $20 for ebay rippoff pump), new cat and temp. probe. The original cat (old cat) looked well enough, but I need this baby to perform. I'll give it a try and keep the $70 clear sky.com (something like that) on the shelf. About to order a hearth pad. I am into it for $500, $725 for the liner/dbl wall stove pipe with secondary damper/25' insulation, and $500 for hearthpad.: $1750 with paint and gaskets incl. Not bad at all, considering I was thinking about buying a VC Resolute floor model for $1600 with a baby 1.7cu ft box. 
The cast iron plate in the back looks good, there was some use, but not crazy. Like I said, previously the center grate is fabricated. I ordered a new baffle (holes beneath the cat) and center grate. That's an extra $100. Should I keep it for the shelf, or return and see how it goes: my $100 question. I picked an exp. site to order from, so I think. The iron plates on the inside are not a screw driver, but a bolt. Leads me to think they were replaced. I guess the stove is the late 80's, as it's not allowed to be sold after '92.
The head for the ash pan stripped out, and the guy put a bolt in there. I could also use a vent screen as part of it rusted away. Oh yeah, $55 for the brass handle. Again, I used an exp. site. It might go for $35 on woodland or campstove or blackswan. I am listening to my oil burner--ugh. At least it's new, I just moved into a 10 year vacant zombie house that a builder flipped: it had 4 notes on it...


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## Wood Doctor

I brew beer said:


> Thanks, I have burned for 13 years: 44 gallon (barrel) stove and an insert. The insert was noncat and hardly ever engaged the "after burner," always had the fan on to boot. I imagine my efficiency was about $40% on the insert. Hopefully, it all works out. I like the stove, Like an idiot a snapped the bolt. The door case for the glass. I think cement will probably work out. It's easier enough to monitor. One thing from this forum, is leave well enough alone. I got money into it, so I have to get use out of it. I think about $500: 300 for stove, $100 for blower, (incl. restocking fee of $20 for ebay rippoff pump), new cat and temp. probe. The original cat (old cat) looked well enough, but I need this baby to perform. I'll give it a try and keep the $70 clear sky.com (something like that) on the shelf. About to order a hearth pad. I am into it for $500, $725 for the liner/dbl wall stove pipe with secondary damper/25' insulation, and $500 for hearthpad.: $1750 with paint and gaskets incl. Not bad at all, considering I was thinking about buying a VC Resolute floor model for $1600 with a baby 1.7cu ft box.
> The cast iron plate in the back looks good, there was some use, but not crazy. Like I said, previously the center grate is fabricated. I ordered a new baffle (holes beneath the cat) and center grate. That's an extra $100. Should I keep it for the shelf, or return and see how it goes: my $100 question. I picked an exp. site to order from, so I think. The iron plates on the inside are not a screw driver, but a bolt. Leads me to think they were replaced. I guess the stove is the late 80's, as it's not allowed to be sold after '92.
> The head for the ash pan stripped out, and the guy put a bolt in there. I could also use a vent screen as part of it rusted away. Oh yeah, $55 for the brass handle. Again, I used an exp. site. It might go for $35 on woodland or campstove or blackswan. I am listening to my oil burner--ugh. At least it's new, I just moved into a 10 year vacant zombie house that a builder flipped: it had 4 notes on it...


I replaced the back plate on the stove about 5 years ago with a solid 1/4" steel plate from a welder's shop. I drilled the holes for the bolts that hang it in place. It's holding up rather well and made a huge difference. If I buy another, I will bump that to 5/16" steel. As I said before, when that cat baffle gave up, I replaced it all and no longer use a cat as described in this thread. 

Ever notice all the notes on property? People live on debt these days. That's wrecked our economy.


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## I brew beer

First note was 224k and they all added up to over 600k. I paid 420 after they bought it for 224k. Almost new house, new boiler to roof. So my hearthpad is going to 1/8 of an inch too high. I imagine I can install no problem, as I have 8 to 10'' to go into the zc fireplace. Yeah the draft is going down, but my 25' chase/insulated liner within a dbl wall 8'' liner should pull it out. Not to mention, I live on across from a farm so it's always windy here: Eastern LI. I knew of a house where a guy took 3 more notes of the house, the same day application for all 3, then when back to Pakastan with 300+K.


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## Wood Doctor

Around here if the wind is from the south and the temperature is rising, it will produce a downdraft and make it really tough to light a fireplace or stove. A falling barometer just makes it worse. Keep that in mind. Whenever that happens, I open a window for a few seconds until the chimney draft is established. That works.


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## I brew beer

Good to know. I can fudge 1/8'' but not 3/8''. I need to keep looking for a 1.25 R = 0.8 or better pad. So no cat, but you burn hotter, and shorter? I did read the whole thread, a refresher would be good. Thanks

UPDATE: This ceramic board looks to be it for $173: http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...th-Pads/HY-C-Sandstone-Tile-Type-2-Hearth-Pad

That's a big savings too. I'll get my stove in for $1500. My builders fireplace/zero clearance has 29'' to work with. So the Stove is 28'' high (short legs) and 1/2'' ceramic board: Boom! I hope I like the stove, I don't mind messing with it, and it's has to be the biggest I would get under my ZC fireplace. 22'' logs! I was at my wood pile, laughing at the size of 21" logs. The VC resolute offers 16", but really 14" usable: No creative angling there!


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## Wood Doctor

I brew beer said:


> Good to know. I can fudge 1/8'' but not 3/8''. I need to keep looking for a 1.25 R = 0.8 or better pad. So no cat, but you burn hotter, and shorter? I did read the whole thread, a refresher would be good. Thanks


My shop-made "cat" is a 1/4" thick steel plate with holes drilled in it for the exhaust. It eventually gets red hot and works about like a cat does, burning the excess smoke up:




It rests on a collar where the cat used to be:





This is the part that I replaced along with the cat:




Running full bore, there is no visible smoke leaving my chimney:




The flue on the far right is the wood stove chimney. When this picture was taken, I was running the stove full bore and the other two flues were dormant.


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## I brew beer

Great pics. I thought the part you replaced was the baffle. Mine looks like your old one. I am going to keep the new one. I just won't mess with it this yr, as I imagine i ll have to drill out bolts. My collar seems gd. Hoping for an install this Sat. I got my wood pile going and it's going down to 29 tonight.


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## I brew beer

Why would the brass handle come wuth a spring? I got everything for the install but the hearth pad. Maybe install this Sun. The ripoff $209 blower from ebay came. Idk the specs of it (cfm?) it does have quite low speed and a much higher high speed. The other one from electric motor warehouse is one speed at 60cfm.


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## Wood Doctor

I brew beer said:


> Why would the brass handle come wuth a spring? I got everything for the install but the hearth pad. Maybe install this Sun. The ripoff $209 blower from ebay came. Idk the specs of it (cfm?) it does have quite low speed and a much higher high speed. The other one from electric motor warehouse is one speed at 60cfm.


The brass handles on my stove have no springs attached, nor do they have any strings attached. I have no idea why you ordered a blower for $209. I think you need to reduce the number of beers that you buy from your own brewery.


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## I brew beer

I ordered it before I got through the thread. Waiting to see the other one before I returned it. I got the clear sky cat combuster to fit (slightly larger). Which may not be as gd as the old one. I was checking clearances and came across that no surface should be hotter than the ambient room temp by 115F. So 70 means the mantle trim that I am slightly worried about (smaller than2" and you are fine) at 17-18 will be measured with my yet to order Harbor Freight Infrared thermometer and represent a problem approaching 185F. Obviously, I ll work up to a large fire. Mantles deeper than 13" represent a problem too and need a shield.


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## I brew beer

Sanded a bit tonight. Will coat tomorrow and the next day. The gaskets are all gd,minus the door. I m sticking with the Lowe's gaskets and sending back the kit. The cheap faso pump came, but my electrician said he liked the exp one: heavier, 2 sp switch, and the cheaper one is rated for only 40C. Hearth pad and magnetic switch is the only thing I am waiting on. I also boiled the cat for 30 min (viniger and distilled water), rinsed with distilled water and letting it dry for a week. Sat is a 6hr mtb race and Sun might be windy. Idk when I ll get it in, but getting there.


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## I brew beer

Top is off, broke one but got in out with gd threads. The center bolt by the cat broke, but i may of read that as newer and may not replace it. Will rope with 3/8 gasket and recement once I but new bolts.


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## I brew beer

Need to grind an1/8 of an inch off the bottom tap to get more threads on my 5/16 tap (drill out with anF bit or 7/64?, it's decimal .218). New baffle is heat treated in the oven. I painted the interior top as previously it was neglected and has some corrosion channels. Not awful as the Iron is thick. Definitely will use a gasket between top plate and front, 1/4 inch corrosive gap formed. Will use 3/8 rope and 
cement for the top. Maybe instal Sat.


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## Wood Doctor

Looks like good progress. I think the previous owner neglected this stove. Possibly it was never installed correctly, likely positioned ajar and that eventually set up the gaps with the internal strain on each major panel (top, sides, bottom, etc.)

Sealing all those gaps will not be easy. Let us know how it works out. I have a furnace that talks to me these days. It's about the same age.


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## I brew beer

Done. 1 m of 3/8 gasket installed with more to go when I put the top on--this also includes the doors (i realize now it should be 1/2 gasket. The pic shows 4 vertical ropes and around the entire top plate in the air chambers, plus 1/4 gap in front. A few small vertical ones in the back. Cement plus rope plus more cement, 3 hrs tonight. Installed new baffle and ran a tap in the tops threads: all gd. The gaps are def warpage, but nothing insane. Baffle was not too bad. Install top tomorrow after tapping center with a 5/16 bolt. Right now I have the 4 corners, i had only two plus the center. So i figure the center is gravy, as i read it was not on all stoves. I may not get too many threads.


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## I brew beer




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## Wood Doctor

Looks good, I have to wonder when they started making these stoves in Taiwan. Must have been about the time I bought my 288 -- 1986 or 87. I think you will get a dozen or more years out of this one before needing repairs. The back panel inside the firebox may be the first item you will replace. That's a piece of cake. Just measure and buy a 1/4" or 5/16" steel panel from a welding shop and drill two holes for the hanger bolts. These stoves were not designed to fall apart in the short run.


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## I brew beer

That would be great. I just need a proper latch for the ashpan--a generic one will do albiet pia to find. I can lock it shut with the origional latch, the bolt stripped and I have a different bolt. No big deal, the backing plate looks great and I have a steel replacement center grate--box--well done. I do have a new center grate $45-50. I thought Taiwan was prior to USA. I thought mine was 86-89?. I added rope and tapped the center bolt with 4-5 threads, it ll do the job. I bought a bolt to act as thread and a nut to run up the washers to make it tight. Being that I revived the thread--thx for input--I wonder how everybody else is doing with their stoves? I guess I am going to cement the front and back ropes as they don't look high enough. I also cemented the flu. Maybe tomorrow night I ll have a if install goes ok.


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## I brew beer

N.Y.


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## I brew beer

Instal went well, although we didn't linsulate the chimney: 2" screws connecting to the zc fireplace, up the existing 8". I need a connecting pipe, appliance connector I guess. I lit a fire starter with the top just layed on top of it--no smoke. Amazing as the gaskets on the front and rear are slightly above the lip. So no real pressure ppl on screwing down the top, if you gasket it like I did above. Now top is much more accessible. I polished the brass, and have the optional bar on top. Finally!!!! Pretty pumped, 12 yrs would be great. I ll buy some 3m fire block foam to help seal bottom of liner, and get some concrete board painted black to place in the hole.


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## I brew beer

Two pieces of stainless steel roof cap: 25' of liner.....and Big Sky Country, Long Island Trump York!


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## I brew beer

Does it getting any better than this??? Just started combuster, clean air whatever $70 is over 700. Now. It was knocked in the reviews, but seems gd as it climbs.


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## Wood Doctor

My son was married there in 2004 at the naval base. Good view of Manhattan. He now lives in Portland, Maine.

Now, remember that you need to find dry firewood to fuel this stove. Once that flue gas reaches 600 F, that cat combuster can kick in and take it from there. I usually wait close to an hour before I close the block off damper. That usually means the bed of hot coals is established. At that point, you can throw in another log and let rip.

Cheers!


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## I brew beer

My brothers neighbor gaveme the arse of his wood pile...great stuff. I just hooked up the blower!!! Burning mostly Red Oak and Maple. I worked to back in down when it got up to 1290F. 2200 sq ft with an extra for center hall and 10' ceilings in mbr plus 2br. 71F and 26 outside: I got it going just in time


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## DrewUth

Baffle I made for mine. 1/2" steel rod around the three sides to combat warping. 1/4" steel plate. Used 3/4" threaded rod couplers in the corners. Works great, a huge improvement in cat operation over the old warped and cracked unit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wood Doctor

Great! You may have gotten by with fewer holes, but that's just an observation. I think that when I made mine using a plate of steel that lifted out from a fixed frame support for cleaning, that was also a plus.

I'd love to see these get red hot, but on a cold day, I know that they do. Good show.


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## I brew beer

Cool engineering. I still have not screwed top down, but weight and rope keep it air. My side door bolt is bent, next yr I ll take care of it. Also need pin for ash latch. I m glad I replaced the baffle $50 saw it gor $30 elsewhere. Burning away at 1230 cat, 400 on stove


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## Wood Doctor

I brew beer said:


> Cool engineering. I still have not screwed top down, but weight and rope keep it air. My side door bolt is bent, next yr I ll take care of it. Also need pin for ash latch. I m glad I replaced the baffle $50 saw it gor $30 elsewhere. Burning away at 1230 cat, 400 on stove


Years ago, wifey usually always wanted to screw top down. Did I say that? Gasp!

Please make sure that your stove top is tight as a drum to the sides. 1230 F cat is about right. I made it to 1320 F today without a cat (as illustrated n earlier posts) but with the draft blockoff securely in place. The cold wind was blowing out of the northwest and barometer was at 30.7. These are ideal wood stove burning conditions. My customers are *not* calling up and complaining about all the firewood that I delivered. Makes sense to me.


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## I brew beer

Big test Fri. Am it ll be 5F. I wish i replaced the side door gasket: only getting 5-6 hr burn time. I believe I got 8-9 for a while, gasket sucks now.


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## I brew beer

First fire, after using soot eater ($48) to clean chimney from my Living room with a drill. Cool brush that uses weed wacker line. My 2 cats cleaned ready to go.


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## Wood Doctor

Once again,. here's my flue collar plate that I used to replace the cat combuster. It works flawlessly:


But, remember that I also rebuilt the frame that it rests on:


Angle iron works along with some machining and four bolts.


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## DrewUth

Mine has had an air leak for the past two seasons (this year and last) that I cannot find. I know its on the bottom somewhere as if I let it fill up with ash and just shovel out the firebox (leaving the pan and underneath area packed full) the burn times increase by 2-3 hours. 

I did put a new cat in this year and WOW what a difference...I think it had the original one in it that wasn't crumbling but certainly was taking more heat to get burning that it should. This one rockets up to temperature as soon as I close the damper, I can watch the probe needle move. I come down in the morning after 9-10 hours and there is a nice bed of coals. Toss a few oak logs in with the air fairly open and the damper open as I set up the percolator in the kitchen. Return 5 mins later and close the damper as the fire is now roaring- probe reading around 250-400*. Walk back in the kitchen to check the coffee pot, walk back (around 2 minutes) and its at 1000-1100* . With the old cat, that temperature change might have taken 20mins instead of 2. Plus, it will hang up there at operating temp (1000-1300*) for twice as long at lower air inlet settings and fewer loads of wood. House is easily staying 5-8* warmer overnight than previous years.


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## Bill Corey

RE: SIMPLEST instructions I can come up with on how our family can best run our FA264:

Hello lads and lasses, thanks so much for this Forum and particularly this thread. Well, my dear old Dad and Mum purchased our 264 pre-1991. Dad left no or very cryptic instructions on how he used it. But over the years I've finally mastered it. 

It's in great shape with no major cracking in the fire box, shaker grates, etc. There's a blower motor with a neat auto sensor On/Off switch that attaches to the back surface of the stove via magnet. Last year I replaced all the gaskets (except the bypass gate gasket, which from what I can feel with my fingers is entirely gone -- I'll replace it sometime when I open the stove top). It might have the original cat, which still works great!

Anyway, as other members of the family are clueless about how to run it, and seem reluctant to learn (a "handy" neighbor's verdict when Dad was gone but Mum was still alive: "Trash it!") ... and since I'm not always around ... I thought I would produce a visual guide to attach to the side of the chimney, with pertinent pages from the Manual. 

I'm sharing my labeled photo here, along with the first page of the Manual with my notes. Basically I found the original Manual not completely helpful, so I gleaned info from this Forum (thanks Wood Dr!), YouTube (you're the best Spudpail), and friends (hats off to John Neilon in Gardner, MA).

Considering it's been 0-20°F for over 2 weeks now, this has been potentially life/house saving information.

Thanks all, Bill


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## Wood Doctor

I have a simple rule of thumb when burning fires in my 288. Wait an hour after lighting the fire before closing the block off plate. Then throw in another log or two. Once you master that, it seems rather simple to operate this stove. With a hot bed of coals in place, it will burn about anything. Mine's still operating after 31 years, consuming an average of five cords of wood a year.

Not made anymore, and parts are getting scarce, I still intend to use it a few more years. The 288 handles a longer log than the 264, but it burns no longer duration. The ash pan and shaker grates are a terrific convenience. The complete control of the fire is matched by few stoves. I figure today I would have to spend three-to-four grand to equal it. It's a 550-lb keeper.


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## I brew beer

Nice instructions. Yr 3 going fine. I put a rope gasket on the outside of the side door. A tiny bit of air gets through the glass, but is acceptable. To fix would need to drill and tap. Bought metal window holders. It will run from now till April, due to Global warming of Long Island, ny.


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## tae111

Does anyone know where I can get a grate frame for a pre 1990 264CCL? I get many parts from Woodman's Parts Plus but they don't have them and said they lost the pattern for it. I am replacing the center grate and the grate frame is pretty warped in the back. I'm afraid that it might be impossible to remove without breaking it. I have had this stove since 1985 and it would be a shame if this part was the end of the stove. The rest of the stove is in really great shape.


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## Multifaceted

tae111 said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a grate frame for a pre 1990 264CCL? I get many parts from Woodman's Parts Plus but they don't have them and said they lost the pattern for it. I am replacing the center grate and the grate frame is pretty warped in the back. I'm afraid that it might be impossible to remove without breaking it. I have had this stove since 1985 and it would be a shame if this part was the end of the stove. The rest of the stove is in really great shape.



The back or bottom frame?

I just flat out removed mine after not being able to find a replacement, then lined the back with fire brick. Worked out very well for all of last burning season.

https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...reliable-dutchwest-stove.325001/#post-6683609


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## tae111

Multifaceted said:


> The back or bottom frame?
> 
> I just flat out removed mine after not being able to find a replacement, then lined the back with fire brick. Worked out very well for all of last burning season.
> 
> https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...reliable-dutchwest-stove.325001/#post-6683609


The bottom grate frame. The back plate is in good condition. I replaced the right plate and the grate under the cat. I also ordered the center fixed grate but getting the bottom grate frame out so I can install it is the issue. That is the original part that came in the stove in 1985. If I can't find one I might just not replace the fixed grate and get a cast iron coal grate to cover the opening. If I can find one the right size.


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## Wood Doctor

The back frame can be replaced with a sheet of 1/4" thick plate steel that a welding shop can supply for you. It removes and installs rather easily with a pair of bolts. I'm not sure about the center grate. Likely that will take some machining.


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## tae111

Wood Doctor said:


> The back frame can be replaced with a sheet of 1/4" thick plate steel that a welding shop can supply for you. It removes and installs rather easily with a pair of bolts. I'm not sure about the center grate. Likely that will take some machining.


Yeah it's the piece that surrounds the grates on the floor. That would be hard to make. The back plate and side plates are still available at woodman's Parts Plus.com. Last year I used the front piece of the coal kit to cover where the fixed grate was. It worked good but I want a more permanent solution.


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## tae111

I will say the OEM parts are now very expensive though. I love this stove. With the blower attached I have heated my 2116 sq ft. home since 1985 with it. I have looked at the new stoves and haven't found one I would want to replace it with yet.


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## tae111

tae111 said:


> The bottom grate frame. The back plate is in good condition. I replaced the right plate and the grate under the cat. I also ordered the center fixed grate but getting the bottom grate frame out so I can install it is the issue. That is the original part that came in the stove in 1985. If I can't find one I might just not replace the fixed grate and get a cast iron coal grate to cover the opening. If I can find one the right size.


I purchased this https://www.etundra.com/restaurant-...rcial-8-inch-by-15-inch-cast-iron-coal-grate/. It fits perfectly over the holes in the bottom grate. I have been using it for a few weeks now and it works great.


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## chuanglian

The side door smells a bit smoky, should the seal be replaced?


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## Wood Doctor

chuanglian said:


> The side door smells a bit smoky, should the seal be replaced?


I replace the seal on my 288 door every two to three years. Eventually it wears so much that the door will not close tightly.


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