# Lots of questions about footlocking



## basnighttrees (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks in advance for all your advice. I am learning to FL for pruning. I learned to climb with spikes so I normally would just walk up the lead or limb. I set a line in a fiction saver, use a double asender instead of a prusik, then climb with "the knot". I have read some other treads and my options for moving back up once I come down some are to FL the tail or air hump.
Question 1, is that the prefered way or most efficient? 
Question 2, Once I am up in the tree how do I move around to work? I mean from limb to limb, up a lead, etc?
I was in a huge pin oak and when I needed to go back up I could not FL the tail because it would have swung me away from the limb I wanted to get to. 
Question 3, Should I choose a tie in point close to the truck or away from it?
Question 4, For those of you that FL and use spikes, once you are good at climbing w/out spikes is it faster to work in the tree for both pruning and take downs. 
Question 5, Is FL better on your body over the years than spikes? I would think that spike may take a toll on your knees, Is FL healthier? Thanks again for your help.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2005)

Footlock?


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## basnighttrees (Apr 25, 2005)

Hey MB I read before where you have never FL before. Have you started using FL more? You have been climbing for some time. Have you notice any problems with your knees?


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## Stumper (Apr 25, 2005)

I don't footlock. I certainly don't prune on gaffs. I do use a Pantin(but not often) . I do body thrust. I'm a slow climber and hardly the authority on efficient work aloft but while gaffs have helped my removal work I can't imagine pruning with them-partly because it is WRONG but also because they are in the way when swinging and limbwalking. One thing I do when moving around in a tree is use my lanyard a lot-Swing the end around that other lead and pull myself over with the lanyard, throw an end through that crotch above me and pull myself up to where I can find a foothold to move on up a lead etc.


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## jkrueger (Apr 25, 2005)

_Never use spikes except for take downs._

I've found that FL even when close to the trunck is a lot less work than body thrusting. Since I've FL I do no other. Your other questions are not clear to me.

Hope this helps,
Jack


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2005)

basnighttrees said:


> Hey MB I read before where you have never FL before. Have you started using FL more? You have been climbing for some time. Have you notice any problems with your knees?



Never foot-locked, no knee problems, the shoulders sometimes hurt.


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## clearance (Apr 25, 2005)

Spurless climbing is heavily mocked by us utility guys but good for you trying something different. Don't get crazy and start doing removals without spikes though.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 25, 2005)

I do 90% of my removals spikeless.

I use the pantin.

I beat the local "fastest, best climber" of the big orange side by side.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> I do 90% of my removals spikeless.
> 
> I use the pantin.
> 
> I beat the local "fastest, best climber" of the big orange side by side.



Yah right, bring it on down to the bayou, we'll have a 'lil race!


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## Lumberjack (Apr 25, 2005)

How about I hire you and we call it even?


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## RedlineIt (Apr 25, 2005)

I've never been able to footlock to save my life. Three or four locks and I'd get muscle cramps in my glutes. I tried FLing this way, that way, I just couldn't "get it".

Air humping is so tediously slow. I used to go to great lengths to get my throw line on the climbable side of the trunk, I can bodythrust like my ropes on fire, but tossing my throw-line back over twice to get a good alley for bodythrusting was wasting time.

I even got to know which trunks and types of bark I could just shinny up, sometimes with a lanyard, sometimes just with grippy gloves. I still do that sometimes, it's like spurring without spurs, you just never extend your knees past the point of being able to hold onto your purchase.

Then I was shown the pantin. Omigawd, a whole new world!

Now I don't care if my line is away from the trunk. Hell, if its a great TIP, the further the better! I can ascend with the pantin just as if I had exceptional footlocking skills, only easier.

The pantin rocks.

In question 2, it sounds like you may have used a redirect that sewered yourself, but your description is unclear.

How did you eventually get to that branch? Did the eventual solution tell you anything about your TIP or where you should have gone first?

Sometimes going up and down, up and down and choosing your new TIP is the only way. With time you will learn to make the most of each TIP.


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## basnighttrees (Apr 26, 2005)

Is it better to be close to the trunk or away from it when choosing a TIP? I know this is a open ended question that is different from tree to tree. If one has to move all over a huge canapy to prune dead wood is it better to choose one TIP in the top center or choose TIP in different sections of a tree.

On the tree I was in the TIP was about 8 feet from the trunk in the top center between the two areas I had to work. I went up to were I thought was a good spot to start and lateral to the place were needed to start rigging and cutting. For me to move around in the tree I had to free climb, meaning my weight was not in my climbing line. I used my landyard to secure myself before making a cut. It just felt uncomfortable not leaning into my climbing line. 

The work area was on both side of the tree so I chose a TIP in the middle of both areas. From what RedLineIt said maybe I should have chose two different TIP.


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## clearance (Apr 26, 2005)

Somebody anwer question #4. Lumberjack, when you beat the guy from the big orange machine, could you explain the circumstance, like you were both climbing the same sized trees to remove them, him with spikes, you without or what? You guys know I'm a utility hack and I climb with spurs always so don't hack on me, I do what I feel safe with.


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## CODIT (Apr 26, 2005)

Use a redirect or double crotch your climbing line to get two points of connection. You are right when you say every tree is different so you have to make a plan and work the plan out. If you dont have a copy of The Tree Climbers Companion you need to purchase one and it will help greatly in devloping your climbing skills. Placing your first connection in the tree is important to the whole job according to what you plan to do in the tree. So place your line according to "Your Plan" or as close as possible and redirect or double crotch as you "Work Out The Plan". Also a 2 in one Lanyard is great to help getting from one place to another.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 26, 2005)

1. Footlocking is the most ergonomic and efficient way to ascend a tree with out spikes.
That is if you know how to do it correctly.
No fancy ascenders required.
2. Once at the top of the tree, lanyard in, set up you friction device, and rope in. You may have to climb a little higher than you could throw ball to get the best place to tie in.
3. Its way easier to footlock out from the trunk, but its possible to do it next to the trunk but dont try it unless your good at the ftk.
4. Its faster to do every thing in the tree with out spikes, except of cource on take downs.
5. With properly set up spikes and the correct use of them, you will be able to climb in spikes all your life. But with out them you dont have any chance of spiking yourself!

Bs - you never have to free climb bro.
Best option would be to set up a retrievable redirect like CODIT said.


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## basnighttrees (Apr 26, 2005)

I will go back and look at the tree climber companion. I picked up 2 copies yesterday. Between that book, sherrill cat., arbor master training, and time I have learned alot. I am new to this site and I am learning well here also. Thanks for everyones imput. I will get some loop runners and biners for redirect.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 26, 2005)

clearance said:


> Somebody anwer question #4. Lumberjack, when you beat the guy from the big orange machine, could you explain the circumstance, like you were both climbing the same sized trees to remove them, him with spikes, you without or what? You guys know I'm a utility hack and I climb with spurs always so don't hack on me, I do what I feel safe with.





Yes, same size trees, side by side, with a similar DZ. 

It wasnt an official race, like we started with a gun or anything like that. We both started at the same time and I was on the ground first. Someone else who works for the orange said I was faster.

I am sure that under different circumstances it woulda been different. Spikeless is doable is my main point.


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## basnighttrees (Apr 26, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> I do 90% of my removals spikeless.
> 
> I use the pantin.



I am starting to use my imagination on how a removal can be done without spikes. What are the 10% of removal situations when you use spikes.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

The 10% is when you have long leads that have no limbs, and you have to climb above your tie-in point. It's possible to shinny up the limbless lead, but say you got up there, took the top out and you're cutting firewood chunks off on the way back down, there's just no real practical, efficient way to keep yourself from slipping down while maneuvering your chainsaw. When chunking down a limbless lead, you should be tied in twice (climbing rope and flipline), but your climbing line will not be above you supporting your weight. This is where spikes are a natural choice.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

I'm with lumberjack. My spikes are critical and essential, but they don't get a whole lot of use.

I find that when I have spikes on for a takedown, I tend to climb as if I don't have them on, except for situations like the long, limbless spar, and of course the final trunk chunk-down.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 27, 2005)

Blocking down the trunk, dead trees, super skinny trees with structural defects.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

Yea, what he said.

As far as feeling the total treeguy climbing freedom, and practicing really technical moves, spikes get in the way. Wearing spikes while trying to footlock..... like trying to talk while brushing your teeth.


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## basnighttrees (Apr 27, 2005)

OK, cool... For a tree that has limbs you can work without spikes but a trunk you need spikes to chunk down wood, would you go spikeless until the spikes are needed? Or just do the whole tree with spikes?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

Guys who wear spikes are going to answer that a lot different than the spikeless guys. However, if it is a takedown it really doesn't matter, it is only personal preference. There's really no right or wrong in this instance. If I choose not to wear spikes on a takedown, it's more because I'm wanting to keep my climbing skills honed; I'm seeking a higher level challenge. Spiking is definitely easier.

I would suggest using spikes on any takedown. I think they give a climber a sense of security, plus there's really no reason to make your job any harder than it has to be. You can make it a game; wear your spurs, but see how little you can get by without using them. Sink em in during crux moves, and when you have to make a cut and don't have a limb to stand on.

Priority should be placed on safety, and positioning yourself properly and securely to make the cuts.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 27, 2005)

I dont wear spikes because they get in my way. If I have to wear them to block down a trunk then normally I will put them on when I need them, not for the whole tree.

I want to get some better pads, my Buc Bucs just aint what I hoped. I want some pads like MB's.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 27, 2005)

I agree with these guys.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

Lumberjack said:


> I dont wear spikes because they get in my way.


 If you are a skilled climber, they're simply not necessary. Once you get to a certain confidence level, you can move about much more swiftly and fluidly. If you are a regular spiker, you're somewhat dependent on them to define the level of climber you are.

My biggest fear in this profession would be sticking a spike through my achilles tendon. The thought of that freaks me out.

I will body thrust now and again, just so I can relate when someone speaks of it, but footlocking is so much faster and less energy-intensive and natural.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 27, 2005)

You hit the nail on the head TM!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

So then, why doesn't everybody footlock spikeless ?


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## Lumberjack (Apr 27, 2005)

I use a pantin to FL, is that still FLing?

My biggest fear is spikin my rope, plus the spikes are just uncomfortable and restrict movement of the ankle.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

Jumberlack said:


> I use a pantin to FL, is that still FLing?


 No. Footlocking is a technique where you loop the rope under one foot and over the other, squeezing your feet together to secure a grip on the rope. That is a footlock.

The Pantin comes from the caving world for ascents up out of pits using Single Rope Technique. Most cavers have never heard of footlocking. Treeguys have adapted it to doubled rope technique.

The Pantin is popular with a lot of guys. It's a good piece.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 27, 2005)

Yeah I know what FL is, and can FL, but I use a the pantin. Just wonder what you would call that.


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## SteveBullman (Apr 27, 2005)

panting


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## Tree Machine (Apr 27, 2005)

Good one, Stephen!


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## basnighttrees (Apr 27, 2005)

Thanks for all the info on footlocking. I too want to be a better more efficent climber. I do have concerns about spiking my rope. I have spiked my leg once and my rope a few times. I am approching my career with the safest, fastest, and easiest on my body approch as possiable. You guys have help alot.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 28, 2005)

You said you ascend with dual ascenders, right? I think that's a very good place to start. You can count on them to move up the rope(s) predictably with near zero friction. As well, they will grab the rope and will not slip. They're easy on, easy off and can be backed up for security. You can rest, put your full weight on them, and there's no chance of binding, or locking up once you start back up. They will work exactly the same every single time. You can advance them as far, or as little as you choose. They eliminate a lot of variables, actually all the variables. Since you don't have to futz with ascenders, the way you might with a hitch, your full focus can be on what your feet are doing.

I'd like to see how you have your ascenders rigged. Any way you can kick us down a photo?


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 28, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> The Pantin comes from the caving world for ascents up out of pits using Single Rope Technique. Tree [CLIMBERS]guys have adapted it to doubled rope technique.
> 
> The Pantin is popular with a lot of [CLIMBERS]guys.



Petzl develope the Pantin for cavers but they sell more of them in the arbo world now. 

Here's a picture of the spring clip that I put on mine. This is much easier to put on and snug up than the buckle that Petzl makes.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 30, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> So then, why doesn't everybody footlock spikeless ?



Who does footlock with spikes? Bad idea...


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 30, 2005)

basnighttrees said:


> Thanks for all the info on footlocking. I too want to be a better more efficent climber. I do have concerns about spiking my rope. I have spiked my leg once and my rope a few times. I am approching my career with the safest, fastest, and easiest on my body approch as possiable. You guys have help alot.



Shot dude, whats the point of hammering your body if you dont have to a.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 30, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> Who does footlock with spikes? Bad idea...


Very bad idea. You lose lot of friction. You have to footlock using the front third of your feet, instead of the middle, in your arch. Quite difficult, and you have to point your toes in and heels out to prevent yourself from puncturing the inside of either foot. It can be done, but definitely not recommended.


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## basnighttrees (May 1, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> You said you ascend with dual ascenders, right?
> 
> I'd like to see how you have your ascenders rigged. Any way you can kick us down a photo?




Yes I can get a picture after I get my camera back from my dad. I left it in his truck the last time we went turkey hunting. In the mean time, I have a 8mm rope tied with a double fisherman knot. I take the loop of rope and girth hitch it to the ascenders and the other end to a biner. Clip the biner to my saddle and go. Actully the double accenders is really two right hand accenders taped together. I got them half price. I have used it once and the tape did not hold. The next time I use them I will tie a 4 to 6 loop Klemheist. This should hold to two handles together.


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## Tree Machine (May 2, 2005)

I would like you to tie a second 8 mm with a double fisherman's knot of the same length and apply it next to the one you've got. You'll clip your biner through both of them. You will feel more secure than just with the one and for mere pennies.

We need to figure out how to make your duals so they're not floppy. The beauty of ascenders is the absolute 100% control they give you on the ascent up the rope, so we want them performing 100%. If the setup looks shoddy, we're going to tell you about it, not to degrade your system, but of pure concern for your safety and performance. We're just lookin out for you.


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## basnighttrees (May 2, 2005)

Cool, I will get my camera this week.


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## basnighttrees (May 10, 2005)

Sorry it take soo long. Here are the pics.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23416&stc=1
This is a pic of the boots I am usinghttp://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23417&stc=1
The high arch does make me slip some. I just need to use my toe.


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## basnighttrees (May 10, 2005)

The advise about making the length of the adsenders about where your eyebrows are was the best. I was able to rest without having to pull myself up again. I could just rock back and look at my feet to get a good lock. I was not so tire by the time I got in the tree.


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## Tree Machine (May 10, 2005)

Ascenders are nice that way, allowing you to put your full weight on them between locks, stop, rest, advance, inch your way past obstacles. Go slow, go fast, go whatever you feel. They're very user-friendly.





Most curious rigging of your Dual right-handed Petzls. I'm not sure anyone here has ever seen such a setup, nor has Petzl. Hey, innovation is celebrated, as long as it's safe and secure.

You'll have to tell us how they perform. With the rope faces opposing each other (one side viewable, the other not), I could only guess on how it would feel. Tell us more.

Interesting, Chris.

Interesting.


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## basnighttrees (May 10, 2005)

They feel fine to me. It is the only thing I have ever used. The rope moves well through the adcenders. The knot holds the two handles together fine.


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## Tree Machine (May 10, 2005)

Have you used them on single rope yet? Do you use ascend using one hand on the handle, one on the rope, or do you hold both handles?


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## basnighttrees (May 11, 2005)

I have used them on DRT. I have never climbed on SRT.


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## Tree Machine (May 11, 2005)

SRT is wonderful. A lot of guys avoid SRT because using a hitch to ascend a single rope is a real bite in the arse. With ascenders, it's identical to ascending a dual rope, only with half as many ropes . 

Ascenders make using the new-breed 11 mm lines easy and breezy.


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## Chuck R (May 11, 2005)

*Anything wrong doing it this way?*

Climb with a split-tail and use a single Petzl ascender connected to footstraps. Maybe this is common but haven't seen it discussed. Seems like a reasonable arrangement for new climbers that are not so good at foot locking (like my wife).


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## Tree Machine (May 12, 2005)

Hi Chuck, Welcome to the Forum, glad to have you here.

Footstraps are very common in one of my two climbing worlds (caving) but I know of no one, personally, in the tree climbing arena that uses them. I think the reason is that you have to carry them around in the tree clipped to you, or throw them to the ground once you get up there and then not have them if you need them again.

The length of webbing from the ascender to the footstrap, and the footstrap itself would add a fair degree of bulk if you were to schlepp it all around the tree, especially if you're packing a rack of slings and biners for rigging purposes, and a Silky or two, and a chainsaw. Guys who want this sort of aid generally use a foot ascender called a Pantin.

Pantin or footstrap, even though it may make the ascent easier, still adds extra gear, and added complexity. Remember, the ascent is only a small fraction of most any given climb. Most of the climbing in a tree is climbing the tree, not climbing the rope.

The beauty of ascenders linked to your frontware is simplicity and minimalism. Footlocking and ascender(s) is a system boiled down to the least common denominator. Learning to use an ascender is, well, let's say there's a very, very short learning curve, which means almost all the skill is in learning the footlock. The footlock, as a technique, is very straight-forward; rope over one foot, under the other. That's all there is, really.

It doesn't take a special athlete to do a proper footlock, nor does it require some innate skill that some have and some don't. No special gear is required. *If you are having problems learning the footlock, it probably is not you; it is likely your footwear.* I honestly believe ANYONE can learn to footlock well, but footlocking with improper footwear is akin to eating soup with a knife.

Attached is Elizabeth's rig (partial). Very effective for anyone who doesn't climb regularly. It's a two-foot footloop. 

_I will do anything I can for any one of you to help you get comfortable footlocking._ 

Much of the hurdle, early on, may be mental. Maybe it's the way you've got your setup rigged. Partly, it could be your climbing boots. Let's troubleshoot, source where the problems lie, and get you comfortable doing this. Once you get it, it's like a young bird learning to fly. Soon it becomes second nature.


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## Chuck R (May 12, 2005)

*TMachine*

Thanks, Mr. T Machine for your reply and the forum welcome. This place is great.
I've been foot locking since I was a kid. My dad hung a rope in our garage and I had my fort up there. I don't think I have the right footwear going for me at this time, however. I kinda snagged my new line on those stupid speed lace gromments. So I won't use those boots again. I'm looking for a way, like shown in your picture, for my wife to climb on a split-tail system. I haven't tried a pantin yet but I do have the Petzl handled ascender with foot loops. Makes sense what you're saying about hassling with that stuff when you're working up there. I wanted something relatively "safe" and easy for her. Both DdRT and SRT. Since I'm new to this I'm reading everything I can right now and havin a ball.
By the way, I had the privilege last weekend of watching the pro's (I'm not) at the MN ISA tree climbing competition. That was more fun than I've had in a few years. Saw some of the best and a few who, as their mates chided, "had spent a little too much time in the bucket".
I know this is a professional forum so I won't clutter it up too much. I discovered my interest in this profession a little late in the game. I'm 49. But I have lots of trees, a love of knots, a fear of heights, and a Husky 338XPT. Wish me luck.


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## Lumberjack (May 12, 2005)

Welcome to AS!

As to a professional forum.. eh, we might get a little lax in here.

I use the pantin on almost every climb, I can FL (albiet not well, way outta practice), but I choose to wear the pantin. There has been problems with joints from prolong FLing. 

Oh, and your the same age as the Blaster, who climbs most every day as a contract climber. You are only as old as you think you are


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## jamie (May 12, 2005)

> You are only as old as you think you are



or as a mate says:

the woman you feel.....  

jamie :evil


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## Tom Dunlap (May 12, 2005)

Chuck,

Since you were at the MnTCC you got to see one of the finest all around arborists that I know. Gary Albig is the Jedi Master of Arborculture in Minnesota. He's one of my mentors and is on my Mt. Arbo-more 

Did you compete or spectate? A really good way to learn more about climbing is to get involved at the TCC and judge or tech. Let George or Lynn know and they'll have you on the list for next year.


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## Jim1NZ (May 12, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> *If you are having problems learning the footlock, it probably is not you; it is likely your footwear.* I honestly believe ANYONE can learn to footlock well, but footlocking with improper footwear is akin to eating soup with a knife..



Never ever blame not being able to footlock on your boots! Whos ever read Lance Armstrongs book "Its not about the bike"? Well in this case its not about the boots.

Main thing with footlocking is technique, then practice.

Its possible to footlock with no boots, give learning the technique a real go before blaming the boots!


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

True, Mate. I'm just presenting the kinder, gentler version of that.

I'll meet ya half way, Kiwi. I wholly agree. Anyone who can footlock, can footlock barefoot. But only for so long.

Still better would be sneakers, but then ya gotta climb in them. Anyone who can climb can climb in sneakers, but they impose limitations on how extreme you can be and how long before your feet hurt.

To explore the outer limits of climbing deserves the very best boot available to you. They will allow you to footlock at least as well as with the sneakers, mebbe better. But the most important thing to remember is the majority of the time, _where you have your feet in contact with tree_, that's where you should be gauging the performance of your footwear. 

If they climb exceptionally awesome, it's pretty much a given that they'll footlock with authority.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

*We love noobs, even if they're old farts*



Chuck R said:


> I know this is a professional forum so I won't clutter it up too much.
> Wish me luck.


Don't worry your self on the clutter. It's questions and input like yours that are the lifesource of information being shared. Consider yourself an ambassador of knowledge perpetuation.  



p.s. Good luck.


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## Jim1NZ (May 13, 2005)

Yep, cant say i tried sneakers but specialist boots do make our job a bit easier especially when moving through the crown, limb walks etc


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> Yep, cant say i tried sneakers but specialist boots do make our job a bit easier especially when moving through the crown, limb walks etc


.... climbing steep-to-vertical limbs, doing short footlock descents, heel-toe jams and just being on them all day. Try jamming sneakers into a tight 'V' crotch and see what you get. Toe and heel hooking. Being able to use tiny nubs or irregularities on a limbless spar as a foothold,even though 97% of your boot is not in contact with anything but air.

I'm not sure if it would be worse to climb without proper footwear, or without ugly gloves.

I'm sure many good climbers are out doing their thing without ideal footwear, and without sticky-palm hand protection. Climbing is, of course, possible, but you'll likely fall short of the full freedom of being able to be all you can be. Being able to do the really hard, crux moves, over and over, all day long, is really the tree climbing Nirvana, as well as optimizing our potential to be productive and disprove the theory that money _doesn't_ grow on trees. 

Once you're not having limitations imposed on you by sub-adequate gear, the only limitation becomes YOU. This is where we should be climbing; no handicaps. In this profession, you ARE just a short extension of your tools.

With *climbing the tree*, it's hands and feet, what's on them. With _the actual tree care_, it's all the other tools we use.


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## Chuck R (May 13, 2005)

*2 questions related to secured FL and MN competition*

The guys at the MN competition last weekend who were fastest on the secured FL were the ones who didn't use ascenders. I think they were using a klemheist around a doubled line. Is that because ascenders slow you down, or knots are faster for better climbers, or ??? I'm thinking maybe they never put any weight on the loop and that's why they were so fast.

Is it proper from a safety standpoint to climb with FL and a prusik loop and no other backup? Is that the norm? These guys had a shoulder harness with a belay connected to a ground worker but I'm assuming that was to insure safety during competition.

I did see a guy ride his blake's almost to the ground during the rescue competition and saw an ascender pair slip a foot or two before the ground belay took over.

I'm new to this though so consider the source...


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## Chuck R (May 13, 2005)

*Hi Tom, pleased to meet*



Tom Dunlap said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Did you compete or spectate? A really good way to learn more about climbing is to get involved at the TCC and judge or tech. Let George or Lynn know and they'll have you on the list for next year.



I'm not ready for competition yet as I would probably be a hazard to others. Did learn a lot though. May have seen Gary Albig but wouldn't have known it. A few of the officials had name tags but others did not.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Chuck R said:


> The guys at the MN competition last weekend who were fastest ...... or ??? I'm thinking maybe they never put any weight on the loop and that's why they were so fast.



Their hands were the ascenders. The prussik or (Kleimheist), was there in case of a slip, or for descent. The hitch had nothing to do with the ascent except act as security.


I had a Swiss guy absolutely smoke me at TCIA Baltimore. I didn't push the hitch up ahead of me, but I was using my hands as the ascenders like he was. My feet got tangled in the hitch at my feet near the end, and he got me by about a half a body length.

I was in tennis shoes, also.


See, that's not 'real life'. That's competition. Real life means schlepping a chainsaw and a Silky, maybe a pole pruner or a telescoping pole saw, and in the Summer a Camelbak UP THERE with you. You're wearing YOUR saddle,with your biners and slings.

Speed is not an issue in tree care. Overall swiftness and efficiency, YES, but flat-out speed on ascent, absolutely not even part of the reality.

Comparing 'tree care' and it's technical climbing to logging or climbing competitions, just know they are very much different worlds, with different goals and objectives and different results, hence different approaches.


That's all.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 13, 2005)

I SRT all of the time so it's really simple to backup the ascender. This is not the norm though. There are many ways to back up or use two connections.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

True, Tom. Backing up the ascender is so essential. The feeling of knowing your gear and rigging is bombproof allow your total trust in it, to not only use it with authority, but to pursue the outer limits of it's uses. 

Working off ascenders has always sorta been shunned, but if properly backed up, there is absolutely no reason not to. This is where using 11 mm lines and SRT becomes so do-able.

Tom, shall we take a side passage here and share a few ways to back up ascenders, show how, and why and tell what backing up ascenders means? This is good stuff. This, coming up, is what will revolutionize your climbing technique and approach. This fine detal will challenge all you kow about how tree climbong can be done.

Convention should be thrown out the window for the sake of being open to new possibilities. This is quite literally, the door to new-school climbing techniques, the juncture where old meets new, the very constricted center of the hourglass in the history tree climbing technique.

Tom, would you care to lead?


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Meanwhile, I'll go snap a few pictures.

Here's the link on the 'Backing up dual ascenders' thread.

```
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=17594&highlight=backing+dual
```


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## Tom Dunlap (May 13, 2005)

This would be time to start a new thread.

My desktop has all of my pics and the better bookmarks. I had the hardrives reformatted and I'm in the process of reloading data. Until then, I use my laptop which is basically a word processor.

There is plenty of information about SRT ascent and backups here and on the other site. Spending a little time with the search feature would be a good start.

Every couple of weeks or so I here about someone else who is converting to working the crown via SRT. The first step is to convert to SRT for ascent. then, little by little make the move. There are so many advantages and almost no limitations to working the crown on SRT. It will probably take a generation or so for this to become mainstream. I'm looking forward to seeing the first climber in a chapter TCC to use SRT. Unless the judges are dialed into very progressive techniques it might be a battle for the climber to be allowed to SRT. If I'm anywhere nearby I would endorse the use.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Whoops.... , here -------> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=17594&highlight=backing+dual


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Tom, I am so totally in agreement with you, but I don't think it will take 10 years.

What it will take is the realization of how easy it is and we can do that right here, right now.

Now the noobs are going to eat this up. I mean, the super noobs, the guys who have very little-to-no experience with friction hitches. For the 99.999% of the rest of you who are enslaved to a climbing hitch as your means of controlling friction, you're gonna be a harder sell.



I guess this would be what is called a 'stretch'. This is where I try to convince you all to cash in your 100 year-old school of friction hitch convention. Yea, right. People don't generally like to change, or are resistant to re-considering their beliefs. Some would feel their manhood being challenged, or feel some form of mental defeat in adopting new methods in ascent and descent and work positioning. We don't like to give up the things we know and are comfortable with, even sometimes if it means changing for the better.

This might take some radical cage-rattling. New School Climbing.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

A good place to start, before showing how to back up ascenders, is in showing the differences between New School and Traditional Climbing. Let me know if I've missed any....


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## Jim1NZ (May 13, 2005)

SRT is ok and yes i have tried it. What are the clear advantages in it though? Why is so great. 
Yea i think its time for a new thread.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 13, 2005)

Look for an article on SRT here:

http://www.************/articles.php

There are some really informative threads on both sites about SRT.


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## MasterBlaster (May 13, 2005)

Excellent link, Tom!


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Excellent link, Tom!


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## MasterBlaster (May 13, 2005)

Whoa!


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Whoa, _what?_


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

Like "whoa, we're derailing a perfectly good footlocking thread"?


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## MasterBlaster (May 13, 2005)

Uhhh, chill pill, dude.

I 'spect this thread will survive.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

This is a really good thread, Mon.

Footlocking is kinda like the central dogma technique. Everything else revolves around controlling friction.

It's like the hub around which all other facets of climbing revolve. It's the method we use to completely defy gravity.


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## MasterBlaster (May 13, 2005)

Sweet! Alas, I don't do it.


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## Tree Machine (May 13, 2005)

How can you NOT? I don't unnerstand. What did you say?


Blaster said:


> Alas, I don't do it.


I thought you said that.


Let me think. This is a footlocking thread and you don't footlock. 

So,what's the deal? You volunteering to be our new non-footlocking poster child?


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## Tree Machine (May 15, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> ...poster child?


Mister Master, Ayatolla of "You never footlock?"


Blaster, I love ya. I gotta give you a big hug for being so honest. But now I've gotta Dog ya.


You've attained an eminence, sort of a Grand Poobah stature, a fully permeated presence here, an overseer of all. Your contributions to the treecare industry are far ranging, widely recognized and respected. Some early noobs almost think of you as godlike, like one of the early forefathers of our technical climbing arena.

You are of the most experienced treemen IN THE INDUSTRY!




...and you do not footlock?


Dude, do you know how many false illusions have just been shattered? DUDE, you're like a big dog that's just been _neutered_.


COOL ! We can title the thread "Teaching old neutered dogs new tricks" and if we can teach Blaster how to footlock, then we can pretty much assume anyone can learn to footlock.


Fair enough?


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## Tree Machine (May 16, 2005)

Blaster? I didn't hurt your feelings did I? I'm just pokin ya in the ribs.

LOVE, 

Tree Machine


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## MasterBlaster (May 17, 2005)

I have a feeling I'm not the only old-schooler that doesn't footlock.


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## Thor's Hammer (May 17, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I have a feeling I'm not the only old-schooler that doesn't footlock.


I don't footlock either.


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## teressa green (May 17, 2005)

me neither,why bother,,,,,


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## MasterBlaster (May 17, 2005)

teressa green said:


> me neither,why bother,,,,,



I could have used footlocking a few times in my career, but that's about it. I wouldn't mind learning, but that wouldn't overnight become my main mode of entry.
It looks like a lotta hard work to me. But, I ain't never done it so whadoIknow?


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## Lumberjack (May 17, 2005)

Hey Butch, I was workin down that tiny sycomore Saturday and FL with spikes on. It was deceptively simple, it would have been much easier without spikes, but I needed to go up 15' or so and decided to give it a try.


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## Tree Machine (May 17, 2005)

May I ask an honest and candid question?

If you're not footlocking up the rope, how are you doing your ascent?


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## Stumper (May 17, 2005)

Jim, Ladder access and secured freeclimbing/lanyard advance. Body thrusting. Handled ascender and Pantin. All of those work for ascent without footlocking. One of the things that happens to us as human 'beans' is a little mental quirk whereby the way we learn to do something becomes THE way to do that thing. Footlocking is cool but there are other ways to ascend. Setting a line in the best crotch, footlocking up and working the tree is cool and often most efficient but people like Guy and myself get frustrated watching a thowballer dink around cursing for over an hour trying to hit that crotch instead of simply walking up a ladder, tying in, advancing his line with the polesaw three times and being at the top of the tree. The difficult thing for all of us is knowing when to switch methods to keep things easy.


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## teressa green (May 17, 2005)

amen


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## Tree Machine (May 17, 2005)

Double amen. I can't argue switching methods, nor will I ever consciously choose one method more difficult, time consuming or less efficient than the other. A single guy, working solo need to be able to choose from a variety of methods that best suits the situation.

I have used ladders. I've body thrusted. I used a Pantin once. I'm familiar with climbing hitches. However, in gravitating back to the simplest, most efficient and straight-forward approach to going a rope, a 1:1 ascent footlocking is really hard to beat.

I'm not trying to enroll the world in the way I do it, because I'm not the only one having success with it. What I'm wondering is, if you're hung up on not using the footlock, _why is that?_ The intent here is to assist other climbers, nothing more.... unless there's a better faster, safer way, and then I'm jumping on board with that new method.

I like to keep things boiled down to the least common denominator, simplified systems, straight-forward, reproducible results easily teachable.


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## teressa green (May 17, 2005)

fully open mind ,not much call for it ,easier and faster ways to access a tree,ladders ,poles or good old body thrusting,weight to strength ratio isnt an issue ,at 39 yrs old i work more productively ,safer ,faster,and exert less energy that the gucci public house tree surgeons that the industry is overflowing with ,22 yrs up trees and very little time in a class room ,set in my ways yep ,but my ways earn me good money,,,,,,,


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## Thor's Hammer (May 17, 2005)

Likewise, its not a bodywieght strength ratio thing for me, its just I never really have cause to use it. Have tried it occasionaly for fun, and admire the guys who do it really quickly. But the 'gucci' climbers i've seen using it over here wouldent get a job with me, as they couldent take the pace in my experience.
Also have very open mind to new techniques, but theres an old adage 'if it aint broke dont fix it'


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## MasterBlaster (May 17, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> May I ask an honest and candid question?
> 
> If you're not footlocking up the rope, how are you doing your ascent?



The previous posts 'splained it pretty well!


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## SteveBullman (May 17, 2005)

Stumper said:


> Setting a line in the best crotch, footlocking up and working the tree is cool and often most efficient but people like Guy and myself get frustrated watching a thowballer dink around cursing for over an hour trying to hit that crotch instead of simply walking up a ladder.



think you hit the nail in the head there. theres no 2 ways about it, footlocking looks damm cool when done well. im practicing it here or there when the need arises. its far from being my main method of ascent. might do it once a month.
but the point is, doesnt matter how good your footlocking is, its only a quick method of gaining entry to a tree if you're spot on with your throwbag technique too


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## Tree Machine (May 18, 2005)

I honestly can't think of anything more energy intensive than body thrusting. I think you use a lot more arm strength, and then convulse your entire midsection to gain a piece of altitude.

The only time I can think of where I do a body thrust would be when you're coming up to your limb. you hook over top with your heel, do a strong body thrust, pull up, do a 180 into a half squat and you're standing on the limb. It's sort of a tripped-out move, not entirely necessary, but more for self-entertainment.

As far as body thrusting up a rope, or air-humping as I've heard it called, I played with that a little today, just so I could converse with some level of recent experience. I don't know, guys. All I kept thinking was, the rope is right there, the feet are right there, grab the rope with the feet and push yourself up.

If it were a difficult technique, I would understand not using it. I still have to contest that if you are having problems footlocking, you might rethink your choice of footwear.

Anyway, to each their own, and it really doesn't matter your method, as long as you're safe.


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## Tree Machine (May 18, 2005)

Something I remembered today; back 4 or 5 years ago I was doing a climbing seminar in Costa Rica. I had 13 Ticos and we were doing basic throwbag, ropesetting, ascent, descent. We had two ropes set. I would ascend, face-to-face with the noob of the moment, get up there, stand on the limb, rest, abseil back down. We did this together.

No one had ever done footlocking before. By noon, every single guy, even the fattest one, had successfully performed the footlock technique and did the ascent. Most of the guys (showing off for their compadres) really flew up the rope. None of them had, what I would consider, optimal footwear. Yet they all did quite well. These were first-timers.


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## Jim1NZ (May 19, 2005)

All depends.

Depends on, how big the tree is, how far apart the internodes are, if you can thowball well, whether you have spikes on, or simply if you can even footlock!

If all you ever do is take downs with spikes, small trees with ladders, or trees with branches every where then no, you wont ever need to footlock.


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## Jim1NZ (May 19, 2005)

And anyone that throwballs at work for any where near an hour for a branch should be fired.


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## Ekka (May 19, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> And anyone that throwballs at work for any where near an hour for a branch should be fired.



Or buy a bigshot.


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## Jim1NZ (May 19, 2005)

Bigshots are good. How high can a big shoot shoot? Bout 50-60m? 

How long would it take to body thrust that...


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## Tree Machine (May 19, 2005)

*trying new things*

Not that high, usually 30 M tops, mebbe a little more with a lighter bag.


Jim1NZ said:


> How long would it take to body thrust that...


I guess one would have to ask one's self, am I a tree climber, or am I a body thruster?

Generally, all I want to do it get to the first limb, and then its _tree climbing_. Even though the rope is set high and I'm connected to the rope with ascenders, I don't generally ascend any more. Absolutely, the rope and ascenders are used as needed to advance through crux spots, but it's tree climbing and flipline work to get in position and be tied in twice for the cuts.

For my entire career, up until about three months ago, I would get up to the first limb, apply the descent piece immediately, work the rest of the tree off of that, attaching ascenders only if I got into a situation requiring the actual ascent of the rope. Ascenders, once in the crown, were infrequently used and immediately swapped back out for the descent piece after getting past the ascendable moments.

These recent weeks, however, I'm working off the ascender more and more. This is because I found a very guick, almost instant way to add bombproof security to the ascender that gives me unquestionable 100% confidence in it. I have the video clips, and showing the entire application of security takes only about a second and a half, so it's ideal for the dial-up guys. Everyone is included in these video clips (securing both single handled AND dual handled ascenders).

Do you want to see it? I have to go back through some tape, get it onto the computer and send it onward. This should be shared.


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## Jim1NZ (May 19, 2005)

Yea i wouldn't mind seeing it, if its not too much trouble.
TM - What do you mean you work off a decent piece? What like a figure 8?
Only 40m with the big shot? I can just about throw ball 30m, it dose get hard to hit the target at that height though i must admit.

You all need the Harrison rocket throw balls! Best made.


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## Ekka (May 20, 2005)

What about the assisted speed ascent?

You know, pulley at base of tree acting as redirect for tail of climbing line, connect the Kanga to climbing line with a prussik, reverse and haul the climber to the work position ... all the climber has to do is slide his prussik!

Now that's efficiency .... and how old fat blokes do it!


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