# Oxman Kickin A$$ at 125ft



## Greg (Jun 9, 2003)

You gotta read this... http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1616458.php

I'm sure that this is slanted big time, but worth a read, an some decent pics too. I bet he was just practicing AR techniques for the rare climber that is wacked out on acid or somthing up in the tree... Get em OX!!!!
Greg


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## TREETX (Jun 9, 2003)

Take that you dirty hippy!!




> a supposed eco tourist phucking guide



Nice writing skills does he kiss his momma with that mouth??!!

That or what kind of guide service do you run Ox??



> Eric was in the process of grinding out a tree-sitter when another sitter free climbed the same tree in an attempt to get above the climbers to prevent the splintering of the tree named "Allah" by local forest defenders. When they figured out what was taking place, they resorted to torture and outright brutality



What was taking place was a guy getting above them where he could cut their life line. Try to get above me and cut my life line at 125 feet, you will get more than an elbow in the throat and a little rope rash. I think he showed a lot of restraint.

Ox, you are my new hero. What does that job pay per sitter removed??

All the joy of tree climbing without the need for a chipper. That, and you carry a stihl chopsaw instead of a chainsaw.


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## kf_tree (Jun 9, 2003)

i'm sorry if the story is slanted but if not.....what a dam looser. he may as well just work as a bouncer at a local biker bar. i think any one that cheers him on is a little twisted. i'd rather be home less than need the money that bad. what a tool. how much do they pay for an eviction? i 'll send a check to leave them there or is it more macho to throw them out?


how would you feel if that was your kid up there protesting getting his ass kicked?


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## TREETX (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kf_tree _
> *i'm sorry if the story is slanted but if not.....what a dam looser. *



Geee, do you think it is slanted.....???? Most respected, unbiased publications use the F word.



> how would you feel if that was your kid up there protesting getting his ass kicked?



I would feel like he was getting a valuable lesson on private property rights. You don't violate or trespass on others PRIVATE property. That and a lesson in you don't get near someone's life line. I would also hope that he would accept the consequences of his actions.

This guy was free climbing at 125' - they were doing what they had to to save him from himself.

That kid was learning a lesson. People learn from getting hurt. This kid just learned. Some lessons hurt - trust me, from someone who used to rebel against authority, I know.


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## Ryan Willock (Jun 9, 2003)

Get'em Ox!!! Nice work but like TREETX said, try to cut my lifeline and I'll THROW you out of the tree if I can get my hands on you!!! 
So Kf, I suppose that you have no problem with the vandilism and ILLEGAL treaspassing that tree sitters are known for?? Not to mention the treespiking and tunnling under logging roads as well as burning equipment!!!


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## NickfromWI (Jun 9, 2003)

*hmph*

I'm a tree-hugger, so I'd never help get sitters down. I have respect for people that are willing to put their lives on hold to protect the few old growth trees that are remaining. However, at that height, you'd have to be mean with them to get 'em down. Who wants to be fighting at 100'!? The only reason the people want the sitters down is money. Power to the sitters!!!! (except the one's who try to cut climbers' ropes!

love
nick


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## Ryan Willock (Jun 9, 2003)

Trespassing is a CRIMINAL offense!!! Obviosly you have NO respect for people's property!! That was PRIVATE property that they were trespassing on, as long as it doesn't physicaly HURT or harm others then what someone wants to do on THEIR property is THEIR business NOT YOURS!!!


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 9, 2003)

This links back to the same topic a while ago. It does come down to how a person justifies their civil disobedience. 

When I think about civil disobedience and its supporters and detractors I have to think back to the Boston Tea Party. Where the Bostonians justified in coming onto private property and chucking the tea into the harbor? What about the sit ins during the Civil Rights actions during the sixties? Has anyone ever seen the film footage of the police dogs being sicced on the peaceful protests? Is that justified? 

There is a big difference between taking part in an action as a professional law enforecemnt and being "under orders" than being hired as an outsider to boot the tree sitters.

Tom


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## NeTree (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *kf- you speak as if those are sweet little innocent bystanders being evicted from the trees. I got news for ya, they have broken many laws and exhibited a complete disregard for law and order as well as their safety and the safety of others. They are selfish, immature lawbreakers who should be arrested for tresspassing. The problem comes because police officers cannot reach the criminals. Ox is simply using his abilities to assist law enforcement officers.
> 
> If it was my kid up there protesting I'd go up and kick his ass myself before turning him over to the police for prosecution. *



Ditto.


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## Bob Wulkowicz (Jun 10, 2003)

*A monkey with a grinder?*

Maybe I don't belong in this crowd. Let's see, anything, any danger, any pain is justified in defense of private property.

Dropping someone out of a tree will certainly teach them a lesson--at least right up to the impact.

<i>Ox is simply using his abilities to assist law enforcement officers.</i>

Right. Maybe when he gets old and infirm, or falls out of some tree himself, he can go down to Eureka CA and help hold down protesters so those morons with guns on their hip can swab pepper spray right on the eyes of the activists.


http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9710/31/pepper.spray.update/pepper.38.mov


Why don't you all debate whether losing a fingernail while firing a cruise missle at Iraq should qualify for a Purple Heart? I'm sure that would be a high moral dilemma for this group. How about pushing old people in front of buses to reduce the Medicare rolls? Maybe that could be assisting a bureaucrat from the Department of the Budget?

This is really the seamy underbelly of some people I respected. How much hypocracy and shyt can be packed in one topic? Maybe I should go back and read the posts about the picture of the supposedly battered woman. Not us, tsk, tsk. Certainly not us.

Trespassing, my ass. There ought to be sanctuary in trees just like churches. I need a break from this primitive vulgar hooting. I'll respect your right to write stupidly, but I don't have to read it.


Wulkowicz

<hr>

Pepper Spray Trial Begins

by Nicholas Wilson
Use of the chemical weapon on non-violent sit-in demonstrators was unprecedented

SAN FRANCISCO -- An officer dips a cotton swab into a cup of pepper spray, then smears it into the eyes of 16-year-old Maya Portugal as another officer holds her head back and spreads her eyelids. The officers do the same to three other young women whose wrists are locked together with Portugal's. A scene from a torture chamber in some banana republic? It happened in Eureka, California in the district office of Congressman Frank Riggs on October 16, 1997.

TV network broadcasts of police videos showing the young forest activists moaning and writhing in pain outraged viewers nationwide. The use of the chemical weapon on non-violent sit-in demonstrators was unprecedented, and even California's ultra-conservative Attorney General said it was beyond accepted police community standards. An FBI investigation begun last fall continues.

Trial began August 10 in a federal civil rights suit filed by nine of the activists who were swabbed or sprayed at close range. Dubbed Headwaters Forest Defense vs. Humboldt County, the suit charges officers used excessive force. The activists seek an injunction against using chemical weapons on peaceful protesters plus damages for pain and suffering.

The incident at Riggs' office closely followed two other incidents when pepper spray was used on sit-in protesters who had locked their wrists together inside metal pipes. On September 25, seven activists sat locked in a circle in the lobby of Pacific Lumber Company's Scotia offices to protest the logging of ancient redwood forests. On October 3, two young men locked arms through the tracks of a logging bulldozer at Bear Creek. The protests all centered on the Headwaters Forest acquisition deal brokered by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, which activists insist would allow Pacific Lumber to circumvent the Endangered Species Act.


Humboldt County has been called the "Deep North"

Humboldt is a large and sparsely populated county in California's northwest corner. For 150 years its economy has been based primarily on logging. Today it is the location of virtually all the unprotected old-growth redwood forest left in the world, the bulk of it on Pacific Lumber land. Only 4 percent of the original virgin redwood rainforest remains uncut, much of that in state and federal parks. For most of the last decade, Humboldt forest activists have struggled to halt logging of ancient trees, especially in the Headwaters Forest, which is home to the Marbled Murrelet, Northern Spotted Owl, Coho salmon and other endangered species.

Arcata attorney Mark Harris says Humboldt County has been called the "Deep North," a reference to brutality against civil rights activists in the Deep South during the sixties. In 1990, Harris got a federal injunction to stop county jailers from shaving the heads of jailed Redwood Summer protesters. Humboldt Sheriff Dennis Lewis testified that there was hostility to forestry activists in his county, and even members of his own family had told him he ought to "hang them."

U.S. District Court Judge Vaughn Walker is a Republican appointee with a reputation for being strict and conservative. Walker last fall refused an injunction to immediately block use of pepper spray on non-violent demonstrators, saying he wasn't going to "second-guess" officers in the field. He has ruled against allowing any evidence about the topic of Headwaters, but also barred the defense from portraying the activists as Earth First! extremists, saying the trial must be narrowly focused on the issue of excessive force. Although the jury will decide the case and the amount of damages to award if they find for the plaintiffs, Walker alone will decide if the defendants must pay legal bills for the activists if they win.

The six-person jury consists of five women and one man with ages ranging from early thirties to late seventies, and a racial mix of Whites, Asians and Hispanics.

The legal team for the activists has won against Pacific Lumber before. Boulder attorney Macon Cowles, associate Susan O'Neill of La Jolla, and Harris sued Pacific Lumber successfully in 1995 in the first Endangered Species Act case ever to prevent logging on private property.

The nine plaintiffs are Molly Burton, Vernell "Spring" Lundberg, Michael McCurdy, Eric Neuwirth, Maya Portugal, Lisa Sanderson-Fox, Jennifer Schneider, Terri Slanetz, and Noel Tendick. They range in age from 16 to 40, with most of them on the younger end of that range.


The case for the Headwaters activists
With the jury seated, each side gave an opening statement, summarizing their case.

Cowles said pepper spray was first approved in California in 1992, but only for use by law enforcement officers against violent suspects. Pepper spray is a concentrated extract of hot cayenne peppers, and is also called oleoresin capsicum (OC). It causes severe burning pain, temporary blindness and inflammation of the eyes, paralysis of the larynx, difficulty in breathing and disorientation.

Cowles told the jury that Humboldt forestry protests had been going on for years, especially since Redwood Summer in 1990. Direct action tactics often include trespass on lumber company property, blocking gates or logging roads. Activists have used various devices to immobilize themselves and make it difficult to remove them. After beginning with chains that were easily cut with bolt cutters, they switched to hardened bicycle locks, then metal pipes to protect their chained wrists.

For years deputies used portable grinders to cut through the pipes and remove them. Other tactics successfully used by officers included negotiation or simply waiting until the activists voluntarily unlocked themselves.

But in 1997, the officers decided in advance to try using pepper spray as their preferred method of dealing with the "lockdown" protests, though it had never been used in that way before.

Cowles said the pepper spray tactic failed, and that in each of the three episodes at least some of the activists endured the pain without releasing themselves, and officers still ended up using the grinders to cut them apart.


<hr> 

Sorry, story's too wordy for the automatic snipper...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 10, 2003)

There was a survey done in the 1980 which found there was only between 1% and 2% of old growth trees left in the US, that was 23 years ago.
What I don't understand is with so few left, why not just cut them all down?  

I respect the civil disobedience of the tree sitters, but I have to think there's a better way to protect these ancient trees. We all know Oxman's motivation($$$), and it surprises me to learn he'd sell out, somebody who claims to appreciate these massive beauties. Not that it matters, there are hundreds more just like him that would sell their soul for a few bucks.
What ever happen to spiking trees to protect them? Tom's suggestion not to use this type of lumber is a good one, it works with reducing the demand for ivory. How about buying lumber rights from the lumber company, can that be done?


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## Greg (Jun 10, 2003)

I just have a hard time taking these people serious, I think doing this stuff is just a way to keep from growing up and joining the real world. I like the gratefuldead, and I bet that I've been at concerts with these people (activists). The same people who travel around basicaly living as homless people scrounging in dumpsters for food, selling pot, acid, etc... I also see them as PETA idiots who throw blood on people, burn test labs, free lab rats, etc....
No doubt, the redwoods are beautiful trees that should be protected, If I owned one I'd never sell it for the lumber. Why don't these people do somthing to raise money and buy these trees --it is all about money--, money combined with a little political arm twisting would keep the trees standing, if enough people give a sh!t. Why can't they sell it to the rest of the world?? I think it is from a lack of trying in any organized or thoughtful manner. --then again I guess I am part of the problem becasue I am not doing anything to help.
Greg


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 10, 2003)

Greg wrote:

Why don't these people do somthing to raise
money and buy these trees --it is all about money--, money combined with a little
political arm twisting would keep the trees standing, if enough people give a sh!t.
Why can't they sell it to the rest of the world?? I think it is from a lack of trying in
any organized or thoughtful manner. --then again I guess I am part of the problem
becasue I am not doing anything to help.
Greg


There are organizations like The Nature Conservancy that buy up land to keep ir preserved. Consider donating money to them or joining in their work. There is also political activity. CA passed a Heritage Tree Act to preserve old growth. 

Tom


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## Reed (Jun 10, 2003)

Hey - it's just money.

Long before I was diagnosed with terminal lymphoma, I used to get payed for killing people. One dead armed insurgent however, never had the tactical effect a murdered couple of kids and their nursing mom did. We just did whatever worked best.


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## TREETX (Jun 10, 2003)

Save yer drama about civil disobedience and rising up against the man. This ain't the Boston Tea party. They have representation here unlike under British rule, when in 1691, the British started claiming all of the good old growth, prime for ship building as their own. It was marked with a Broad Arrow. We didn't have tree sitters then?? 

http://www.nhptv.org/kn/nh/nhlp5a.htm

The people then had no say what so ever and civil disobedience was all they had. These sitters are just people too lazy to work and contribute to society. Easier to complain and jump on every bandwagon rolling by. Peta, legalize hemp, you name it. Just another excuse to attemp to seem noble about being a looser.

All of these kids could get jobs and chip in to pay for the land and trees. Money is the motivation right?? That or they could actually vote. Money rules here and they have not been deprived in their pursuit of it, thus they have not been deprived in having a chance to purchase these trees. But oh yeah, it is easier to smoke pot all day and complain than pull people together and pool money.

It is sad to see these giants go but stop blaming mythical evil people, the MAN and the all mighty buck. Hoodwinked, bamboozled, you didn't land on Plymoth rock, .......yeah we know. We have only ourselves to blame for not saving these giants. Instead of buying a computer and logging on to Asite, you all could donate that money to save these trees. You could all sell your homes and trucks to have money to donate. Simply put, it wasn't that important to you. It is easier to complain and blame than take action. 

Those who complain about the man will continue to. It is far easier than accepting responsibility.

I am willing to admit that I failed these giants, but that is not the rainbow I want to chase nor the hill I want to die on..........


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## TREETX (Jun 10, 2003)

I can't say I like the idea of a tree protection act like in cali. To me, trees are private property unlike wildlife that is protected through similar acts.

Those of you who think it is a rosie great idea, need to put the water bong down for a while and go somewhere that has a tree protection act.

They do the opposite of what they are supposed to do. Private property owners want ther rights and flexibility which all equal $$$$. 

This act restricts land use so to avoid that, you end up with land owners harvesting trees before they qualify as protected trees.

Trust me on this one, I have worked in places with tree protection ordinances. They are bad for trees.

Human nature flows like water, work with it, not against it. Rub the stream with money instead of trying to dam it up.


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## monkeypuzzle (Jun 10, 2003)

Like TreeCo said, if a guy can free climb up above you(man with ropes) you will never get your hands on him. Thats one bad a$$ climber.

There are hundreds of organizations that work at making this planet a better place, Fla. Native Plant Society, Look at Ducks Unlimited. These guys have NEVER cut me a check, but I feel good about helping.My way of making it to the real heaven.


They say everyone gets 15 min. of fame. Those cameras aimed at you will do wonders for your ego I hear.Me on film 125' up kickin a$$ sounds cool, it's not, Im not for sale.

Give the Hippies a pound of Shiskaberry X White Wida grown in CANADA.Worth 6,000$ tell them take it or leave it,you got 2 min. 
More peaceful this way.Tree men are a tough bunch of guys,right?

Private property,got some and every man should have some. You get protective as they come,its mine,get the @#*# out. If it was my tree I would call Rocky and mikecross23 and this other fellow climber I know and go have some fun with the Hippies TOO. But I don't have to make that choice.

say cheese


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 10, 2003)

i think large trees are a wonder of the world and there needs to be some protection.

They cannot move out of the way like animate life to get out of the way.

They are larger than the dinosaurs, i think that only the great barrier reef is a larger life form, but it is not all alive.

There are some large underground living 'mushrooms' they say might compete, but certainly not as sustained mass and size held upright on it's own.

Though each side may gather zealots, moderation aand fair balancing is probably best. Too much of this world has fallen from our bulldozing path already; someone needs to be applying the brakes pulling to balance. Of course i think that would be most leveraged from the opposite angle of pull for most immediate restriction upon movement; as anything else.

So, i don't stand with the OxMan here; but find it in kinda offkey, ill taste; singling him out here, leveraging him against standing for himself versus not wishing to post for whatever reasons as previously stated. Not much on violence; but the name is familiar here, and hope things aren't as bad as they sound. 

:alien:


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## Jumper (Jun 10, 2003)

I loved visiting the Redwoods when I toured Ca in 1982, the Lady Bird Johnson Grove being the one that sticks out in my mind 21 years later. But these trees are on private property, which the last time I checked, in this country at least, makes these tree sitters trespassers, no matter how noble their cause. Sorry it came down to that type of "removal" but short of starving the little buggers out (maybe a little more humane than pounding the crap out of them) what was the owner supposed to do? Unfortunately logging has a real bad rep, and given what I have seen first hand in BC, in particular in the Queen Charlotte Islands, I am not surprised that people react so strongly, however illegally.


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## Bob Wulkowicz (Jun 10, 2003)

*Give me a break.*

If I'm a big-monied interest, individual or corporate, I take a pile of money and go buy the laws I want. SBC here in Illinois went and muscled the bonehead puppylike legistature into instructing our regulatory agency to doubling rates and collapsing the competition.

Who's money did they use? Mine, and all the other ratepayers. Business as usual.

Spare me the mythologies of private ownership. We, as the great unwashed don't own anything--which you'll discover when you descend in the health care cost quicksand. Even the Big C, has only delayed the recognition that penniless and monied are just a moment of circumstance.

Buy me a law; buy me some public opinion; those're the instructions. 

Yes sir, boss, Happy to, boss; the answers.


Doesn't the hypocracy stink a bit?


wulkowicz


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## mquinn (Jun 10, 2003)

shortly before the incident in the article, i got a call from oxman, wanting to talk about what he was doing. i still hold to what i said to him: life is about finding out who you are. your experiences are for that reason. 

with any luck, he's getting to know himself. 

the other option, which some of us prefer, is to sit back and judge everybody else by some measuring stick we carry around in our unexamined rule book.

it seems we have a poor understanding of activism...it's just something to do so you don't have to have a real job. 

activism is for lazy dope-smoking hippies? it's easier than getting a job? no. it's not. otherwise i would be an activist. it takes an incredible amount of commitment and self-sacrifice. if it's true as has been suggested that some of us didn't care enough to do something 'acceptable' to save the trees, and that that is lamentable, then perhaps we owe a debt of gratitude to the radicals who are willing to risk their lives to take up the slack for us. because if most of us are not willing to save the environment by 'socially acceptable' means (oiling some palms), then the few who are left that are willing to do something are given little choice. how much money would it take to buy the land and preserve it? especially if it's owned by someone who can only see dollar signs. these issues are never black or white. at any rate, it would take a whole heck of a lot more money than a few activisits could hope to come up with or it would have been done. how many people would you have to get to pool together? and how do you make people aware of the issue in the first place? how in the world do you make them care? how do you know those avenues haven't been tried and lost? maybe the activists are hoping somebody will at least notice, for heaven's sake, that there's even anything needing to be preserved if they can get some publicity. telling them to just come up with the money is a pretty simplistic directive. 

private property. that's a rich subject. what happens if you can't pay your property taxes for a couple years in a row? still think you own that property? what if 'the government' thinks of a reason they 'need' your property? how about a national emergency and fema goes into action? 

better though, for this argument, what if you 'own' the property on which stands the one thing that will keep the earth liveable for everyone? and you don't want it there. should you be permitted to destroy it because it's on your property? or what if you want to do something on your property that will destroy the liveability of your neighbors? should you be permitted to do it because it's on your 'private' property? 

it's not really so simple as private property rights. like treespyder says, connectivity counts.


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## NickfromWI (Jun 10, 2003)

*b/w*



> _Originally posted by mquinn _
> * how much money would it take to buy the land and preserve it? especially if it's owned by someone who can only see dollar signs. these issues are never black or white. *



Fortunately, these issues ARE black and white. If the owner was to gain one million dollars from cutting down those trees, she/he will no-doubt sell them to the tree-preservationists for $1,000,001.00

Long live the tree hugger, and Ox, take it easy on 'em. I'll whip another rope for you, in exchange for every ass you DON'T whip!!!

love
nick


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## Reed (Jun 10, 2003)

It's just easy to say one thing and then do another.

I get a rise out of the "no topping campaign"....yet witness a tree service who advertise just such and goes and tops anyway. I get a bigger rise when a "Christian" goes and bombs a woman's clinic.

Money's a powerful motivator until an intimate relationship with death allows for a somewhat altered perspective of that. 

We need a bit more depth. The easiest route between A and B might not always be a straight line. 

Measure your emotional responses. Protection of property, especially when it's not yours, is woprth dying over? Is life worth four monthly truck payments? 

If a living from "jacking" can't be made with selective cutting or admirable arbor work, he wasn't worth what he percieves he's not anyway. It's a self-image problem exacerbated by fiscal irresponsibilities. Blood money won't help in the long run, I tried that too. MacMillan Bloedel or any of the rest of 'em don't give one rat's a$$ about your kids or your health or your truck.

Kenneth Lay got away. Would you die for him too?


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## Frans (Jun 10, 2003)

Man what a topic!
If you think this is right or not right,
this type of news cannot help either side.
I thought the whole idea was to extract in a non-violent way the tree sitters. 

Police often lose their cool. In fact there is a law in many cities that the officer who begins a chase shall not be allowed to be the final arresting officer because of the strong emotions that are generated.
Hey if I was hiring the extractors I would not allow this to continue.
On the other hand I can tottally understand being upset that someone wanted to cut my rope (has this been confirmed?) but it is really part of the job and the situation should be handled professionally and impartially.
the chips will fly in a performance situation and some times things may not look right and somebody may get hurt.
One thing I read (I dont know personally) was Oxe has a repuation of violence. This should be investigated. It can only harm both sides case for working this out. In addition it is a liability for his team mates.

I would like to hear from the folks directly involved.
I really dont have enough information and I think that the majority of folks here and elseware dont have enough information either to form factually based opinions.
Frans


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## d kraus (Jun 11, 2003)

By the 1980s, more than 80% of the old growth in the Pacific Northwest had been logged. For the US Forest Service logging has changed, in the last decade, because of New Forestry practices adopted after court ordered protection of the Northern spotted owl and its habitat. On Federal lands before any cutting can take place, a survey must be done to assess the presence or absence of more than 400 species. This is expensive and hard to do over hundreds of thousands of hectares of National forest land. This represents a major change in policy for the Forest Service after a century of clearcutting and sterilizing the site before replanting. 
Clearcutting is no longer done on Federal lands and harvest of old growth has been virtually stopped. Few mills are left that can still process old growth logs. Dr. Jerry Franklin predicts that the US will not be able to compete on the international timber market in the future. High production timber farms in the Southern hemisphere with a 20 to 30 year harvest rotation will be able to dominate the market and supply the world with enough pulp and lumber. 
Logging is not as regulated on private lands. Private timber owners know the trends and the paths to the greatest economic returns in the future. They cut it now, then sell and move south. In the Seattle Times, last week, was an article about Weyerhaeuser purchasing prime timberland in Uruguay. 
Forests have always been seen only for the maximum use and dollar signs and only recently as components in complex species to species relationships. For those who want to run big tree canopy ecotourism, it is fortunate that there are old growth trees protected in National parks and on Forest Service land. Is there a market for climbing 50 feet into an even aged, single species, even rowed tree farm?

Justina Kraus
College of Forest Resources
University of Washington


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## ronnia (Jun 12, 2003)

seems it´s time to reflect about the values in our lifes ... is it money? is it laws? or is there something bigger behind? what can money do for you? can it produce oxygen? what can laws do for you? can they filter water (just to mention two of the innumerable benefits the human beings get from trees)? what are these man-made pieces of paper in comparison to a living being growing for hundreds of years?

all those who stand with mike oxman: why do you climb trees? for what reasons do you remove trees? is it only because of the money? do you really want to loose another landmark after the empire state building?

people who decide to climb a tree and spend days and weeks and months up there - you may call them hippies and they might not have a job and they might smoke joints and you may have a look a julia butterfly hills book to see that these are not vacations up there - that´s their contribution to society. it´s not money that keeps us alive, it´s the trees. so yes, the tree-sitters might be illegal trespassers to laws written by men and still, there is more behind this - the right of trees to live and that they cannot go to court themselves.

i don´t believe we can find a solution in offering the private property owners money to sell the trees to the "tree-huggers" ... first the idea seems awkward to me that these trees could be owned or sold - because of their majesty and their age and their history. secondly, where could we get all that money from to buy all? there is a huge amount of money involved in logging these trees and there are still a couple of them left.

who wants to change quick money for long grown beautiful living beings? for sure, not me

ronnia


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## Ghivelder (Jun 12, 2003)

I think it all comes to what one is willing to do for money. Personally, I don’t even top trees for money and mind you, I’ve just lost a hell of a good client because of my refusal to “redimension” a beautiful beech.
I also think that, regardless of one’s opinion on the issue, Oxman risked a lot: unlike law enforcement agents, he doesn’t have a liscence to kill and if anyone got hurt he would be in serious trouble. The big timber people know that and I guess that more than climbing skills they needed a scapegoat if something happened. I can almost hear the spokesman of the company after the accident: “We’ve hired the climbers just to explain our point of view and try to convince the sitters to come down. We do not endorse any act of violence and if there was any, the climbers have acted on their own initiative.” After that they would probably sue Oxman and pay for the sitters’ lawyer…

Sergio


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## TREETX (Jun 12, 2003)

I have to agree with sergio about the lawsuit/liability end with one exception. This is America - the responsible party isn't always the one who pays, here it is the party that has the deepest pockets. No contract or subcontractor agreement will change that.

You are making some big assumptions that anyone was even assulted here. The publication has no credibility. For all any of you know, this guy ate one too many mushrooms and Oxman was kind enough to restrain him so the purple elephants didn't carry him away.

No one here knows what happened. Save your judgements.

So, giant trees deserve special treatment over smaller trees?? Giant trees have more rights?? Sounds fishy like some kind of master race of trees. The landowner is then penalized for owning large trees w/out any compensation????

I think these giants should be saved and should be left to die with dignity (nothing lives forever). I just don't think the government should be left to do this. I think other avenues should be explored - you are all so vocal about saving this tree - why not pool money?? Oh yeah, you don't care that much about it?? If money is just paper, why not send all that you have to try to save this tree?? Hmmm??

In a utopian world, this timber co would wise up and sell this forest for pennies on the dollar and have it name the XYZ Timber Co. Park. A place for eco tourists, etc and take a cut off eco tourism. Then they could do what ever it is that blows their hair back and still have a good image. Instead, they give a bad name to all of the really legit timber outfits that truly care what the public thinks. They at least strictly follow BMPs.


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## Ghivelder (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *You are making some big assumptions that anyone was even assulted here.
> 
> If money is just paper, why not send all that you have to try to save this tree?? Hmmm??
> ...



I think I was misunderstood...
I meant to say that even if the sitter fell down completely on his own while Oxman was in the tree he would be in trouble. The other guy could "think" he saw Oxman doing something and that would mean going to court...

I do try to save all the (beautiful) trees that come my way. The beech I mentioned was a $600 job and on top of that I lost the client (which was a gardener that used to call me often). Isn't that the same of spending money?

The U.S. has in the last couple of years conquered and occupied two countries. I'm sure there are uniform guys able to take someone down from a tree without the help of arborists.
It's OK to be against the sitters and think that they should be evacuated. The question is: why me? I've decided to be an arborist and not a policeman...

Sergio


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## TREETX (Jun 12, 2003)

> *The question is: why me? I've decided to be an arborist and not a policeman...*



I couldn't agree with you more.....



> *The U.S. has in the last couple of years conquered and occupied two countries. I'm sure there are uniform guys able to take someone down from a tree without the help of arborists.
> *



The US take care of problems in its own back yard instead of policing around the world....now you are dreaming..


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## xander9727 (Jun 12, 2003)

Bob I have to think you need some sort of medical help. 

Why take it out on the logging company? They purchase the land/logging rights with the purpose of LOGGING the trees. If you want to judge someone unethical go after the person/company that sold the land/logging rights to the logging company. Why not chain/lock yourself, sit, pester, etc. the property of the company or individual that sold off the old growth trees. It's not like the logging company is sneaking onto private land and stealing trees (please try and stay on topic here and not bring up tree theft). 
Complaining about how Ox treats you while your committing a criminal act is like sueing someone for getting hurt while robbing their house. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't give you the right to break the law. There are right and wrong ways to implement change and breaking the law is the wrong way. If you want to protect old growth trees than lobby for laws that protect old growth trees. If you don't want to get beat up for trespassing than don't trespass. What ever you choose stop whining and do something the right way. Then you can talk about what you did instead of crying about what should happen. If your too lazy to do something, please suffer silently.

Bring it on.


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## Reed (Jun 12, 2003)

If were getting into theft, tresspassing, and "public property" we're going to where people don't venture - railroad land grants evolving into timber company land.

Many people do not recognize the legality of ownership of land that wasn't accorded legal deed in the first place. I have two copies of documents that gave that specific section of land to a tribal interest from the United States Congress and signed by a President. Therefore, irregardless of the trees or who tries to protect them..from timber intersts or environmental interests...all parties are tresspassers. Arguments moot. Ya'll are wrong. 

My wife sees white people fighting white people - she just hopes they destroy each other in the process of greed. First it was gold, then it becomes water, now it's trees.


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## Burnham (Jun 12, 2003)

It's not just old growth harvest that these people protest. In Oregon several protest activities are over commercial thinning in stands that are far younger that that; the truth of the matter is they want to halt all logging on public and private lands. This is the same attitude that we see when political powers place hazardous industries in poor, minority neighborhoods. That's the "not in my back yard" mentality. These folks don't see the bigger picture...if we sate our appetite for wood fiber in the third world, we increase environmental damage because those places don't have the luxury of strict environmental laws governing logging practices like we have here in the US. By not managing our own resources to meet our needs, we sacrifice the environmental health of the planet.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 12, 2003)

The extraction crews have had to go ont to private land where home owners wanted to get some money from the sale of a few trees so they could do inprovements.

These guys have some saftey training and such, with this and thier climbing skills they are much more qualified then the local constabulary or fire/rescue personel.

While I'm not for the logging of old growth trees, it does take 1000 years to grow a thousand year old tree, I cannot fault a guy for taking a job removing some a bunch of trust fund babies from trees.

Hey Reed, now the red man has got the casinos to suck money from the white mans pocket. To bad it is mostly the poor white guy who fits the demographic.


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## Reed (Jun 12, 2003)

Ya gotta point there JPS. I'd like to add however, that a management company based out of Mpls. gets .75 out of every 1.00 spent on chance. It's a Jewish conglomerate, the CEO the son of one of my honorary Uncles. They build 'em, manage 'em, and take the chunk..Chippewa and Lakota mostly...wife's Cherokee, they don't do casinos. 

I have another friend who gets his 100K plus every year just being a tribal enrolee. After a few decades of less than nothing though, it's called payback. Nothing's free - not even that land westward expansionism took. The railroads however - that's an interesting story. To this day. 

I remember the rifle range training - Charles Whitman was considered a good marine because of his marksmanship - our DI called him a hero for his kill rate. Going a bit overboard I thought but training for efficiency is tantamount to quality product when they're done, like the U.S. trained squad that gulleted the four nuns in Nicaragua - had to see those nuns as "commies" before they got the nerve to hack them to death. That's what worries me about either supporting or condeming Oxman based on the necessity of his target or not. My active duty was considered patriotic by Americans but they knew nothing about what is was I did. The timber glut has not even been mentioned in this entire debate - not has the export of logs to Japan. We color the personality type of the protesters without knowing any of them personally - just like those nuns. The article prohibits judgement on any side because it was written from an extremely slighted perspective. That alone screams of further inquiry - simplistic responses cored from emotion also told us to go turn Iraq into a democracy using DU weaponry, hindsight now tells us we messed-up royally. When a few thousand G.I.'s are denied adaquate health care in the coming years as a result of Iraq duty - we'll probably react with total condemnation when they encamp on the Mall in front of the White House refusing to move, doing battle with the D.C. police force. 

We're easy - us citizens reading the headlines. We're a jealous bunch, quick to call to send Martha Stewart to prison but completely forgetting about Kenneth Lay. 

Wish I were an entitled something or other - got bennies somewhere out there but nix them in favor of accountability. When someone windfalls, the result's usually ugly, even "oppressed" peoples.


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## ronnia (Jun 13, 2003)

hey guys ... stick to the point. 

this about trees, not about money or private property laws or american history or the role of the USA in global politics.

the challenge for arborists is to preserve trees - no matter if they are small or tall, it´s only that the tall trees get less & less. what is your definition of arborist "one who chops down trees for money" or "one who cares for trees"

sergio, it´s so good to know that there are still other arborists out there refusing to "redimension" trees, even if they loose money and costumers

i think when it´s all about human beings, we can well apply man-made laws. if it comes down to trees, there are other aspects to consider. as well, here´s a lot of violation of laws and rights going on - violation of privat property rights by the tree sitters, violation of physical completeness of mike oxman and eric schatz e.g. (did you already have a look at http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/06/1616458.php) and violation of freedom of press by the police kicking out independent journalists. what´s about the rights of the trees?

good on ya, mates ... ronnia


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## TREETX (Jun 13, 2003)

The press has no right to come onto private property.

The sitters are still physically complete. No toes left in the trees.

I do care for trees but part of caring for trees and land involves a redistribution of the growth potential.........

The article you cite is very cute but it lacks any credibility as a journalistic publication - way too much bias and way too little fact or information.


BTW - Amen to that Burnham. Do these protesters use toilet paper?????


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 13, 2003)

Where do you guys find toilet paper made from old growth redwood? How about doug fir? Clean up your words a little, not a bad pun...

By not managing our own resources to
meet our needs, we sacrifice the environmental health of the planet.

Maybe change that around, if humans managed our needs with respect to the resources, the environmental health of the planet might be in better shape. Doing small things can make a big difference. 

This week I took a trailer load of scrap steel, brass, batteries, etc. to the salvage yard. I got a whole $42! The bigger reward is knowing that there will be a smaller hole in the ground in northern Minnesota, Brazil or some other country since my little dab of iron will be reused. Oh, and I get to have a few free lunches.

When I collect small steel scraps they go into plastic 55 gallon drums with a chainsaw cut drainage slot in the bottom. At the scrap yard, the guy on the magnetic back hoe pulled off one of the buckets, set it down carefully and tipped it on its side. then he slipped the mag onto the bottom, flipped it up and dumped out the steel. Kind of like a King Kong sized tip over. I gave him a smile and a thumbs up. He grinned  Pretty cool seeing a good operator on the machine.

Tom


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## TREETX (Jun 13, 2003)

Tom - it is a BIG roll of toilet paper 

Mainly a comment to those that protest ANY cutting and believe we shouldn't eat or consume anything with a shadow.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 13, 2003)

I'm one of those who is torn betwixt the horns on this one. I understand the need to work, I believe in property rights, but I love the giants that take so many generations to be replaced. This time frame is what makes the "grow back" argument a red herring. For us they truly are irreplaceable.

I am concerned about the loss of biodiversity we do not understand. The colonies of diferent orders that make a large tre a mini eco system in and of itself.

Loggers decry the loss of a lifestyle when it is the mechanization of the industry that has eliminated so many jobs. As for the sawmills, why do we ship so much round wood out when we could do the value added services here? Never hear that in the debates.

Getting the kids out of the trees to harvest the timber is one reason they are doing it. The other is the liabilityb the property opwner incures by having these crazy kids living there.


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## monkeypuzzle (Jun 13, 2003)

Down in South Florida, Broward County, Burrowing Owls have been mysteriously killed on property some hot shot developer wants to build on.This type of crap is happening everwhere you look these days.

Trees, Burrowing Owls, frogs, you name it,they are the real victims. 

Leave it to the political system and the greedy to slice and dice up whats left of the wilderness.

Like Tom Dunlap pointed out, the real rewards come from knowing that you are helping the planet a little bit at a time.


:Eye: :Eye:


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 15, 2003)

The question was, does an arborist care for trees? that's what the dictionary says, so that's the definition I'll go with. Whoever the tree sitters were, they were peaceful. Whoever the guys who took em down (the photos told the story) were, they were not acting as arborists.

If someone climbs to whack trees without rhyme or reason, or climbs to whore for themselves out to pay cop, they are not acting as arborists.

I got a scar across my forehead (goodbye, modeling career) from a billy club in Chicago in 1968 when I and many others rioted against the war in Vietnam. The cops were hot because some of us were throwing baggies of excrement at them. That wan't nice, I admit.

If I met the cop who hit me today I'd shake his hand--no hard feelings, we were both doing what we had to do. If I'd been protesting in a tree in Grant Park instead of on the ground and I got hit by a mercenary--I'd p*&^ on his grave.

Tree-climbing skill is a gift from the Creator, meant to be used to tend for Creation--the trees, like an arborist by definition does. Otherwise you might go from evicting tree-sitters to--what? Climbing the Sears Tower with Bud Light written on your back?


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## NeTree (Jun 15, 2003)

A scar? Gee... You got off easy. Did you happen to send out care packages to the thousands of troops while you were protesting? Did it occur to you your efforts were misplaced? Thanks for your support.


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## Reed (Jun 16, 2003)

Care packages?

That's great support. How about helping them in about another two years NETREE. That's about the right time frame when discharged vets will begin organizing en masse to address the denials from DoD and the VA on delayed health effects from in-country service. Been there done that.

It'll be something like this...thousands of claims will be made for better testing and diagnostics to explain a host of ailments from loss of apetite to sleep apnea, sexual disfunction and skin rashes, inability to concentrate and bowel disorders, birth defects in fetuses concieved since returns, heart palpitations and several cancers of the spleen, digestive system, and blood. 

Epidemiologies from other countries will implicate exposures to radiologic substances yet Pentagon officials will deny any such exposures took place. The White House will further deny any such claims. "Foreign" science will be questioned, corporate science will prevail. The same science that industry has the authorship for, the same science that tells us releases from nuke plants are "safe". 

Recent changes in permanent VA policies will further exacerbate the mounting complaints by pointing out the right of denial and refusal to legally treat service-connected maladies - claiments will grow increasingly upset, the one's with enough determination remaining anyway, and the Corporate media will purposfully soften coverage of the growing discontent - unaware Americans will hear little - if anything - of the situation. 

Angry vets will seek support from the traditional vet's rights organizations but will find little support because leadership is slighted towards prior issues unresolved, told to "get in line" and the Iraq conflict was not a "war" as we know them. Discontent grows, some vets seek justice in the streets finding law enforcement enforcing new "National Security" mandates prohibit organizing and demonstrating against policy, etc. etc. 

Law enforcement is called, private riot control tactics are utilized and heads get bashed, corporate media sensationalizing the conflicts slighting the reports in favor of law and order, vet's loosing emotional support among their American brothern in the process. Escalation and more refusals from Administration to accept responsibility and soundbites of radical anarcistic vets going nuts gain support for more law and order....vets filing lawsuits but tort reform placing barriers on redress, the flags flying in favor of the President and Congress....vet's lose again. More amger, escalation. 

Heads get bashed. Private cops are called, phones are tapped, and issue leaders are targeted. 

Where are you? Behind the President or behind the vets? Will you send a care package then NETREE? 

It's happened before. You didn't learn did you?

When it does hit the streets because America can't resolve it's own "blowback" consequences - I for one will exercise patriotism and help those brothers bash-in the heads of the storm troopers in black, ripping the flag back from the hands of the real enemy - the new American order. Who's side will you be on? Fox news?


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## NeTree (Jun 16, 2003)

Been there, done that myself; and I still can see the line between "civil disobediance" and slinging sh1T at people who are just doing their jobs themselves. Activists can do alot of good, but they have to know where the line between helping and hurting their cause lies. Do you propose that shooting up abortion clinics is okay? Puh-lease....Answering dirty tactics with even dirtier ones only makes your cause look all the more retarded. Frankly, I'd rather draw the media to the topic of veterans' benefits in a manner that doesn't make us look like a bunch of ticked off hoodlums.

And speaking of toilet paper and care packages, you can't imagine how nice good ole Charmin feels compared to the six square inches of sandpaper in those MRE's....


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 16, 2003)

We always brought a half roll with us from off ship, use the MRE stuff as snotrags. I was lucky, I been off the cost of numerouse "problem contries" but never had to shoot at another person. 

I know a number of the people who were with OX doing those jobs. All loggers and arbo's. Good people all.The way they look at it is that these protestors are up there on inferior equipment. The trees will be cut no matter what. They are some of the best qualified people on the west coast to do this type of work in a safe fashion. 

A few vidcaps of a struggle do not convince me anyone was acting in a dishonorable way.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 16, 2003)

This story is a huge black eye for our industry. 
Anyone who would hurt the cause, that the tree sitters are trying to bring public, is no freaking arborist, just a whore.
Don't try to drag war, abortion, or the safety of the tree sitters into this. This is big money screwing big trees. Some of our best climbers, helping cut these trees, is sick. Even if you could prove that cutting these trees would not hurt the environment, that they would not be missed by anyone, that they have more value as a bunch of chaise lounges or fancy decks on some millionaires mansion, these guys are on the wrong side of the cause, period. I hope they get their little pile of money from the lumber company and languish in their own hot treeless desert of greed.


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