# 40-1 vs. 50-1 ???



## DFK

Y'all must be slowly working your way into my head.
Ever since I found this site I think "Chainsaw" half the time. 

Having read quite a bit on this site I see that a lot of you run a 40-1 mix in saws that the maunfactors of the saws reccomend that a 50-1 mix be run in.

If I understand it right this richer mix protects the saw better from wear. That makes since.

Would it be worth my effore to run a 40-1 mix in my two year old Stihl MS310?
Will I have to tune the saw or anything else to run a 40-1 mix?

David


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## blsnelling

It's not necessarily needed. I only run more oil because most of my saws are ported. Most important is to run a full synthetic oil.


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## porsche965

.....and proper tuning.


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## Ambull

blsnelling said:


> It's not necessarily needed. I only run more oil because most of my saws are ported. Most important is to run a full synthetic oil.



Yes I believe with Synthetic you can run more oil, because it burns better than conventional 2 Stroke oil. If your saw is smoking all the time, it will build up carbon in the exhaust section, which is not good for the saw. With synthetic you get less smoke and less carbon build up.


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## GASoline71

Quite the opposite... synthetic oil lubricates better and that is why the requirement for less oil is implied.

50:1 mix with full synthetic 2 stroke oil will lubricate any saw known to mankind. No matter how old or new they are. Or even if they are ported...

Gary


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## Log Hogger

Supposedly ported saws run cooler, and since they move a greater volume of fuel mix through the cylinder, with a lesser proportion of it burned, why would they need more oil? Just curious. 

More generally, the difference between 40:1 and 50:1 is much smaller than the difference between a saw that is properly tuned and one that is a bit too lean. Another point is that with more oil in the mix, there is less gas, meaning less octane. The fuel mix also cools the saw when the more volatile components vaporize inside the crankcase, so more oil in the mix means less evaporation and less cooling. So optimally one would run the highest ratio of fuelil that still provides sufficient lubrication. How to determine this optimal ratio? Lots of expensive empiricle testing of the sort done by engineers at the major chainsaw manufacturers. Those engineers say 50:1. 

Some say that it was the Iron Fist of the EPA that forced the engineers to use 50:1, but there's little evidence to support that claim. Take something like mufflers which engineers actually were forced to use to control emissions. We can open up the muffler and see significant gains, especially on the saws made right after emissions standards were ramped up. But what difference do we see going from 50:1 to 40:1 or even 32:1? None. Saw techs aren't reporting a scourge of failed bearings or rods on saws running 50:1 instead of 40:1. Instead, there are LOTS of users running 50:1 in saws that hold up to punishment as well as saws from any era. As a sort of control, quick Google search finds reports of early wear or failure in saws running 100:1 snake oil, which suggests that 50:1 really is optimal for modern saws and lubricants.


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## JustinM

You're going to get all sorts of opinions on the matter.

End of the day, as long as you're using quality mix and not letting it sit around for ages, I think you're fine with either 40 or 50 to 1. I personally use 40 to 1 in everything simply because its easier to remember for _all _of my saws and equipment, and its one of those cases where its just "worked for me" always. 




DFK said:


> Will I have to tune the saw or anything else to run a 40-1 mix?


 
You most definitely should tune your saw if you change to a 40 to 1 mix. Heck, even maintaining a mix rate and changing brands of gas or oil, I tend to look at retuning. Often its not more than 1/8th of a turn - and sometimes its no turns at all - but its certainly worth looking at if/when you switch.


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## zogger

*I have heard the opposite*



Log Hogger said:


> Supposedly ported saws run cooler, and since they move a greater volume of fuel mix through the cylinder, with a lesser proportion of it burned, why would they need more oil? Just curious.
> 
> More generally, the difference between 40:1 and 50:1 is much smaller than the difference between a saw that is properly tuned and one that is a bit too lean. Another point is that with more oil in the mix, there is less gas, meaning less octane. The fuel mix also cools the saw when the more volatile components vaporize inside the crankcase, so more oil in the mix means less evaporation and less cooling. So optimally one would run the highest ratio of fuelil that still provides sufficient lubrication. How to determine this optimal ratio? Lots of expensive empiricle testing of the sort done by engineers at the major chainsaw manufacturers. Those engineers say 50:1.
> 
> Some say that it was the Iron Fist of the EPA that forced the engineers to use 50:1, but there's little evidence to support that claim. Take something like mufflers which engineers actually were forced to use to control emissions. We can open up the muffler and see significant gains, especially on the saws made right after emissions standards were ramped up. But what difference do we see going from 50:1 to 40:1 or even 32:1? None. Saw techs aren't reporting a scourge of failed bearings or rods on saws running 50:1 instead of 40:1. Instead, there are LOTS of users running 50:1 in saws that hold up to punishment as well as saws from any era. As a sort of control, quick Google search finds reports of early wear or failure in saws running 100:1 snake oil, which suggests that 50:1 really is optimal for modern saws and lubricants.



I only have two saw shops local to me, dealers, and an old guy with a small engine shop close by. All of them have told me they tried to recommend 50 to 1 but have since switched back to 40 to 1. Now their words, paraphrased, they just don't like to see real dry pistons, they want to see oil on them things when they tear them down. So who knows..the husky wrench flat out told me he likes the poulan at 40 to one, over the husky synblend at 50 to 1. 

Me, on the fence, I have tried both, I seem to prefer actually around 45 to 1 or so. 40 I see smoke, 50 seems to make things run not so great, they run fast, but seems excessive and sorta hot (which I know is contrary to the chemistry..and I don't know why). So I either mix 50 to 1 and add a small splash more of oil, or 40 to one and a little extra gasoline. (depends on what is left in the oil bottle/ mix jug mostly, and how old the mix is)

As for brands, again, jumped around, I like the echo synblend, but I do NOT like their bottles, some of the good stuff, the sticky stuff, gets stuck down in the bottom and doesn't make it out the squeeze thingee for measuring at the top.


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## jbighump

i am running 50-1 stihl ultra with 93 octane and there is plenty of oil on the piston when i pulled the muffler:msp_rolleyes:


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## o8f150

i run everything at 45:1


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## Gologit

o8f150 said:


> i run everything at 45:1


 
Yup..or 43:1 or 44:1 or 41:1 or 50:1 or 42:1...or, well, you get the idea. :msp_biggrin:

Too many guys over-think the oil thing. Use a good synthetic, keep your fuel clean and fresh, and it doesn't really matter a few drops of oil one way or the other.


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## Stihl-Pioneer

jbighump said:


> i am running 50-1 stihl ultra with 93 octane and there is plenty of oil


 
Same here!!:msp_wink:


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## rms61moparman

I run 36:1 with 87 octane pump gas with ethanol!


Mike


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## 064AV

*Man. Recommendation*

I run 50:1 with name brand oil in my modern saws. Metallurgical and technological advances allow improvement, but I run what's recommended. When I worked in the saw shop, it seemed that the saws being run with more oil exhibited excessive carbon build up throughout. Fun facts: my 1958 model 7-21 gear drive Homelite calls for 3/4 of a pint 30w per gallon... works out to 10.67:1  my olive drab 1968 Remington Arms Co. saw calls for 16:1


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## StihlBoy440

I agree with several people on here, quality synthetic oil, in my case Stihl Ultra and 93 octane NO ETHANOL, and TUNED PROPERLY! I was told by Dave Neiger that the more oil you run the lower the octane of the fuel, he said 50:1 in anything 2-stroke, even my old Pro-mac 700 runs alot better on 50:1 versus whatever the factory calls for! I think what I all capped is the biggest things to chainsaw longevity, IMHO!


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## procarbine2k1

Ive had good luck over the years with 40:1. Ive always used dino up until a year ago, and switched to HP. Everything is looking good so far! Im a bit concernced over the fuel, but have been using 93 with ethanol without any problems.


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## MCW

One of the largest Stihl dealers I've spoken to said that most loggers in his area were running 50:1 in their 660 Stihls for years. This dealer found that internal wear was worse than the guys running richer oil ratios (down to 25:1) when saws were pulled down a few years later. Once this was realised basically all pro users in the area started running 25-30:1 in their 660's. Whether this even works out to be economically viable over the life of a saw I'm unsure. This dealership used to shift about 60 x 660's to loggers a season and serviced basically all of them. They should know what they're talking about.
It pays to remember that most of us here will never run a saw for enough hours to see any difference in wear between higher or lower oil ratios. It's easy to say that a saw looks great internally after 100-200 hours when pulled down but how many of us get the chance to compare two saws side by side with 1500 hours on each, both having run different oil mixes?
It's like saying that Stihl RSC is the best wearing chain on the market after only one cut.
Just putting that out there...



GASoline71 said:


> Quite the opposite... synthetic oil lubricates better and that is why the requirement for less oil is implied.
> 
> 50:1 mix with full synthetic 2 stroke oil will lubricate any saw known to mankind. No matter how old or new they are. Or even if they are ported...
> 
> Gary



Hi Gary.
Can you explain to me why in my Aussie delivered 3120 Husqvarna manual they recommend 25:1? If I ran a leaner oil mix than that in my 3120 (when it was under warranty) and there was a problem my warranty would have been null and void. This is an 08 build saw.
I really want to know why the manufacturers specify more oil in their larger saws yet people don't think it's needed? I realise that the oil ratio is consistent with the amount of fuel they use so a larger saw using more fuel doesn't necessarily need more oil.
Not being a smart arse it's just that I think the manufacturers may know something that we seem to be ignoring. I've posed this question before and would love to hear the manufacturer's reason behind their 25:1 recommendation.

I run 40:1 in all my saws except my 3120 that I run 30:1 in.


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## brncreeper

Lol! I'm not too worried about say an MS250 or wild thingy on 50:1. But don't try to tell me to run an $084 or $3120 on 50:1 when they're expected to run a mill or a 60 inch bar cause it aint gonna happen.


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## Old Line State

So if I switch to a synthetic I can cover a broader range. If I have machines which run 32:1, 40:1 & 50:1 then I can go to one mixture? What mixture should I run and what are considered good brands?


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## Longwood

I run 50:1 Husqvarna oil in all my saws starting 13 years ago. No problems. Every once in awhile I'll run Stihl Ultra at 50:1. 
I'm not saying 50:1 is the perfect ratio, but til I have oil related problems thats what I'll run.
I believe whats more important is to tune the saw to the mix you pick.opcorn:


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## CTYank

Been running 50:1 since it was available (around '80?) in all 2-strokes, from 22 cc Echo trimmer to a variety of saws. All look great internally. Chamber/port/screen/muffler deposits are nil. Smoke on starting is nil. Peering inside, I can see oil film.

Some of these units had mfg recommendation of 16:1 with earlier spec oil. It's all in the oil ratio spec, except that the engine has plain bearing(s) AFAIK.

Most mfgs have changed their recommended mix ratio for earlier models over time, as oil formulations have changed. Seems that the major obstacle is folks who can't or won't measure the oil & fuel in the mix- the ones who toss it in the tank (which tank? who cares?) and hope it runs.

And ... good quality mix oil is kinda expensive to be used as mosquito-fogging agent.


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## KarlP

Gologit said:


> Yup..or 43:1 or 44:1 or 41:1 or 50:1 or 42:1...or, well, you get the idea. :msp_biggrin:
> 
> Too many guys over-think the oil thing. Use a good synthetic, keep your fuel clean and fresh, and it doesn't really matter a few drops of oil one way or the other.



Definitely 43:1 for me. I don't want to over-think. Math is hard.  3oz per gallon is really easy.


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## Gologit

KarlP said:


> Definitely 43:1 for me. I don't want to over-think. Math is hard.  3oz per gallon is really easy.


 
Works for me. Anybody got any real numbers on the difference, in fractions or percent of ounces or whatever, of oil in the different mix ratios? I tend to hang right around 45:1 but I might be off a little either way, too, depending on how much of a hurry I'm in and how much I dribble down the side of the gas can. My saws run fine and seem to last quite awhile. I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not saying that absolute accuracy in mixing isn't good. It's just not something that you have to agonize about.


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## jpdocdave

I'm new to the site, and searching this topic brought me here among others. It's an interesting subject to me, I'm a mechanic, so I think about this stuff. Add the ethanol debate, which is all we have in my region, and it seems important to me. Too lean, burns up an engine, too rich and it carbons up and dies a different death. 

Personally I have a new Stihl and a bunch of new Stihl synthetic oil I bought to double my warranty. Now I was practically given an older poulan pro 295 calling for 40:1. So should I mix two different cans, or is the *synthetic * Stihl oil adequate to run a 40:1 saw at 50:1?

Nice part was my echo weed whacker calls for 50:1 and I now have a 4 stroke leaf blower. I would love to keep using 50:1 if the old poulan will be cool with it.


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## redoakneck

Amsoil 70:1. Just stirrin' the potopcorn:


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## MCW

I know that if I run my ported 7900's on 40:1 with full mineral oil (the way they are tuned now) I get hard starting and carbon build up after about 15-20 tanks. Without touching the tune and swapping to full synthetic (both Castrol TTS and ALCO) I have never had these problems surface again. I do tend to run my saws on the rich side but not stupidly so. I don't run the TTS anymore as apart from being expensive the fumes are quite acrid and after 10 hours felling I was getting a good headache. The cheap as dirt ALCO made oil, branded as Jakmax in Australia, is excellent.
I do think people get a bit too excited with chainsaw oil sometimes and try to bring the dirtbike and full race bike mentality into what is a quite simple and understressed engine design by comparison.


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## gmax

Matt, I think we are the only ones here who use the Jakmax synthetic oil, it's good stuff and I can get it cheaper than Stihl mineral oil.


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## MCW

gmax said:


> Matt, I think we are the only ones here who use the Jakmax synthetic oil, it's good stuff and I can get it cheaper than Stihl mineral oil.



Yeah under the Jakmax brand you'd be right mate but it's made in the US by ALCO so I'm pretty sure there would be a variant doing the rounds in the states. It's blue in colour if that helps any guys stateside.


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## DFK

Thanks for all of the replies.
After reading all of this I think 50-1 is what will be put in MS310 from now own.
My saw is completele stock with a factory, or at least dealer, tune on the carb so it not like it is a super screamer or anything... So 50-1 it is.

Thanks
David


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## Schipp

*Yea?*

opcorn: :0
Schipp


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## Nitroman

Log Hogger said:


> Supposedly ported saws run cooler, and since they move a greater volume of fuel mix through the cylinder, with a *lesser proportion of it burned*, why would they need more oil? Just curious.
> 
> More generally, the difference between 40:1 and 50:1 is much smaller than the difference between a saw that is properly tuned and one that is a bit too lean. Another point is that with *more oil in the mix, there is less gas, meaning less octane*. The fuel mix also cools the saw when the more volatile components vaporize inside the crankcase, so more oil in the mix means less evaporation and less cooling. So optimally one would run the highest ratio of fuelil that still provides sufficient lubrication. How to determine this optimal ratio? Lots of expensive empiricle testing of the sort done by engineers at the major chainsaw manufacturers. Those engineers say 50:1.



Now that is a fascinating concept there. How did you come up with that one?

As to the second. Oh dear. Google "octane rating" then come back. Second, the rating of the gasoline in the mix won't change with more oil, gas is gas. Just have less gas in the mix, and with a properly tuned motor, it won't matter. Now...as to how much power is produced...


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## ncfarmboy

MCW said:


> One of the largest Stihl dealers I've spoken to said that most loggers in his area were running 50:1 in their 660 Stihls for years. This dealer found that internal wear was worse than the guys running richer oil ratios (down to 25:1) when saws were pulled down a few years later. Once this was realised basically all pro users in the area started running 25-30:1 in their 660's. Whether this even works out to be economically viable over the life of a saw I'm unsure. This dealership used to shift about 60 x 660's to loggers a season and serviced basically all of them. They should know what they're talking about.
> It pays to remember that most of us here will never run a saw for enough hours to see any difference in wear between higher or lower oil ratios. It's easy to say that a saw looks great internally after 100-200 hours when pulled down but how many of us get the chance to compare two saws side by side with 1500 hours on each, both having run different oil mixes?
> It's like saying that Stihl RSC is the best wearing chain on the market after only one cut.
> Just putting that out there...
> 
> Several years ago I was @ my local saw shop for parts. Carl (owner) was talking to local logger. Overhearing the conversation the logger was saying he went through a felling saw every six mo.
> at 50:1 using Husky oil. He doubled up to 25:1 and had been using the same felling saw for several years??????? I didn't go to 25:1 but I did go to 32:1 because I didn't want to have 3 different mix ratios for different equipment. Now running Husky XP @ 40:1. When I run out it will be Stihl Ultra. I want to see some oil on my piston.
> Shep


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## Slamm

ncfarmboy said:


> Just putting that out there...
> 
> Several years ago I was @ my local saw shop for parts. Carl (owner) was talking to local logger. Overhearing the conversation the logger was saying he went through a felling saw every six mo.
> at 50:1 using Husky oil. He doubled up to 25:1 and had been using the same felling saw for several years??????? I didn't go to 25:1 but I did go to 32:1 because I didn't want to have 3 different mix ratios for different equipment. Now running Husky XP @ 40:1. When I run out it will be Stihl Ultra. I want to see some oil on my piston.
> Shep



Quite interesting, I've run Amsoil at 80:1 for at least 6 months logging with ported saws, and one saw has since had another 2 years of rough use put on it with a range of 65-50:1 ratio'd mix, and the PC and rings look marvelous. Not bragging about Amsoil, just saying that I wonder how some of these people stay in business when their stuff blows up every 6 months or even every year.
Also ran several saws on Walmart SuperTech Outboard 2 stroke oil all through a summer of logging and this is what the Amish loggers were doing for years without any known problems, I still have some of those saws and they have no issues.

Weird,

Sam


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## one.man.band

i don't experiment anymore with different ratios.

supposedly optimum oil/fuel ratio is based on oil migration through the motor. (not my words).

these links may provide some information (from an 2-stroke oil blender).

www.tlr-online.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Maxima_Tips.61180056.html

and here's one on oil migration times through the motor:

Tech Tips - Maxima Racing Usa - Overkill

on the second link, rpm's also are a factor.


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## Schipp

*yea?*



one.man.band said:


> i don't experiment anymore with different ratios.
> 
> supposedly optimum oil/fuel ratio is based on oil migration through the motor. (not my words).
> 
> these links may provide some information (from an 2-stroke oil blender).
> 
> www.tlr-online.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Maxima_Tips.61180056.html
> 
> and here's one on oil migration times through the motor:
> 
> Tech Tips - Maxima Racing Usa - Overkill
> 
> on the second link, rpm's also are a factor.


 "So O.M.B., what ratio & oil do you use/run now? Please!"


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## sbhooper

It amazes me how this keeps popping up. The manufacturers are conservative because they don't want to do warranty work. They recommend 50:1 so that is where you should run the mix and I suspect that with even the petroleum junk it is conservative. Richer just makes more smoke and really is not going to benefit anything. Run what makes you feel good, but the owners manual is there for a reason.


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## MEATSAW

What sort of shelf life does the 2-cycle oil itself have? Synthetic vs. conventional?

Even ethanol-free gas can still go bad right?

My mix is always between 40:1 and 50:1 with either Stihl ultra or Husky LS. Unfortunately there is no ethanol-free gas anywhere within 200 miles so I just get 93 octane and use Stabil ethanol treatment.


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## 2dogs

Here is a panel of experts discussing mix oil.

http://arboristsite.com/chainsaw/9499.htm


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## Wicked500R

I will stirr the pot deeper...Amsoil Sabre @ 80:1 run in all my 2 strokes


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## MacLaren

I run Klotz R-50 40:1 in my 660. In the 555 I am running VP94 50:1


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## mdavlee

I've run 50:1 with cheap oil and 32:1 with klotz original techniplate. I won't mix at 32:1 any more as I don't think that much is needed. I mix the klotz around 43:1 since that's 3 oz in 1 gallon. When it runs out I'll finish off the stihl ultra at 50:1.


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## MacLaren

mdavlee said:


> I've run 50:1 with cheap oil and 32:1 with klotz original techniplate. I won't mix at 32:1 any more as I don't think that much is needed. I mix the klotz around 43:1 since that's 3 oz in 1 gallon. When it runs out I'll finish off the stihl ultra at 50:1.



Well, I see you've finally gotten off the road. Where in Texas are ya?


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## mdavlee

Pecos. About 850 miles down so far. Hope to see tn state line tomorrow evening.


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## MacLaren

mdavlee said:


> Pecos. About 850 miles down so far. Hope to see tn state line tomorrow evening.



Dang. Thats just flat out bookin it. You prolly will see Memphis tomorrow evening. Be careful.


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## indiansprings

50:1 Ultra, burn a minimum of 7-10 gallon a week, 89 oct ethanol, have burned as much as 5 gallon in a day, no issues at all, in everything from 30 + year old saws to saws less than six months old and everything in between, both stock and modded. If I were milling I might consider 32:1.


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## Schipp

*YeeHiii!*



mdavlee said:


> Pecos. About 850 miles down so far. Hope to see tn state line tomorrow evening.



"You in my neck of tha woods... er sand, now! I'm from West Texas. (i live in Ky. now)
But u may not realize it but when u'r goin by Monahans u'll be goin thru one of the largest hardwood forrests in the U.S.. Not many ppl. know it tho...kaz the trees arn't taller then u'r knees. They're called 'Shin Oak'. Kaz they come up to u'r shin.
We had a boot repair and western store in Monahans when I was a kid.
Be careful out there!" 
Schipp


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## TreeSurfer

50-1 all the way.


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## one.man.band

i don't fool around with mix ratios anymore.

dirt bike folks, need not read this any further.

how many of you mix with a 2-stroke mixing cup? the mixing cup has markings on it in ounces, and most have another set of markings for different ratios.

40:1 = 3.20 ounces of oil per gallon
50:1 = 2.56 ounces of oil per gallon

3.20 (-) 2.56 = 0.64 ounces

OR another way

1 Tablespoon = 0.50 ounce (1/2 ounce)

point is: you have no idea 
1. unless you mix with a ratio cup
2. unless you buy your oil in tiny bottles (already in the correct ratio)

an "extra splash", "just to be safe" changes the ratio more than you think.


my question is..... what are y'all actually running?


sure "you can tune it out" with the carb as many here say. although, fuel/air and fuel/oil are two different things. 

how many folks actually retune after adding an extra splash?


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## sachsmo

32:1

But I am uber hard on anything with an engine.


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## greendohn

my dealership sez to run 50:1 with 91 octane mogas. i buy my mixin oil from him also, either the Jonsered or Echo in the lil' bottles that mix with 2 1/2 gallons of fuel. He made reference to 2 types of 2 cycle engines..1)hi rpm, and 2)low rpm engines..(boat motors/lawn boy engines=low rpm...chainsaws and sech hi rpm) and 2 types of mixin' oil,1)low ash content and 2) hi ash content??? somethin' about carbon build up an' sech..I figured he's been in the buisness for a long time and his doors are still open for buisness,,so i follow his recommendations...am i jest a lost sheep followin' the shepherd to the slaughter house?? i dunno..I have done some research on the DETRIMENTS of ETHANOL on small engines so i started using the fuel additives to protect my equipment from ethanol.."corn is eatin' not burnin in my saw"...dohn


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## GASoline71

one.man.band said:


> dirt bike folks, need not read this any further.
> 
> how many of you mix with a 2-stroke mixing cup? the mixing cup has markings on it in ounces, and most have another set of markings for different ratios.



I have been using a "Ratio-rite" cup for about 30 years. Best 2 bucks a 2 stroke dirt bike rider can invest. 

Worx just as good for saw gas too...

Gary


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## MacLaren

I always use my little ratio rite. Makes is super easy.


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## one.man.band

GASoline71 and MacLaren .......(rep will be sent). 

I know y'all understand my thinking on this one, because you already own a ratio cup.

Just a hair more than 1 Tablespoon of oil per gallon can change the ratio rate 10 points.

This post was respectfully directed to the folks (hopefully few) that do not yet own one.


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## GASoline71

Bailey's actually sells the Ratio-rite cups... $4.99

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17090&catID=

I've probably got about 7 of them stuffed all over the place. 

Gary


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## Joe92GT

Speaking of dirt biking, does anyone use the high quality dirt bike synthetic oil? Specifically maxima castor 927 (castor oil) ?


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## GASoline71

Dirt bikes... yes.

Saws... no

Gary


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## Slamm

I've got 3 ratio rite cups, quite handy. One in Logging trailer, one at Illinois farm and one at Kentucky home.

Sam


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## 2dogs

Joe92GT said:


> Speaking of dirt biking, does anyone use the high quality dirt bike synthetic oil? Specifically maxima castor 927 (castor oil) ?



I run Blenzol on occasion, instead of my normal Opti 2. I would use it more except for two reasons. One is that my dealer sells only a six gallon size bottle. Second is that it does not contain a dye. I like the smell but a couple of friends say the fumes loosen their bowels.


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## CTYank

GASoline71 said:


> Quite the opposite... synthetic oil lubricates better and that is why the requirement for less oil is implied.
> 
> 50:1 mix with full synthetic 2 stroke oil will lubricate any saw known to mankind. No matter how old or new they are. Or even if they are ported...
> 
> Gary



I've heard that there are (very rare) exceptions- saws with plain-bearing rod big-ends, like some of the Clintons. The ones with deflector pistons too. Not like anyone would use one of these for serious work. Some of these ran 12:1. Sayonara mosquitos.

What's porting got do do with anything? It's the rings that are challenging to keep lubed properly.


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## Schipp

*hummm*



one.man.band said:


> i don't fool around with mix ratios anymore.
> 
> dirt bike folks, need not read this any further.
> 
> how many of you mix with a 2-stroke mixing cup? the mixing cup has markings on it in ounces, and most have another set of markings for different ratios.
> 
> 40:1 = 3.20 ounces of oil per gallon
> 50:1 = 2.56 ounces of oil per gallon
> 
> 3.20 (-) 2.56 = 0.64 ounces
> 
> OR another way
> 
> 1 Tablespoon = 0.50 ounce (1/2 ounce)
> 
> point is: you have no idea
> 1. unless you mix with a ratio cup
> 2. unless you buy your oil in tiny bottles (already in the correct ratio)
> 
> an "extra splash", "just to be safe" changes the ratio more than you think.
> 
> 
> my question is..... what are y'all actually running?
> 
> 
> sure "you can tune it out" with the carb as many here say. although, fuel/air and fuel/oil are two different things.
> 
> how many folks actually retune after adding an extra splash?



"Koo Thanks, OneManBand!
U say that u don't mess around with mix ratio's anymore...meaning...that u just use whatever the manf. suggestes fer their saw?

Also I hav another question.. U said: "sure "you can tune it out" with the carb as many here say. although, fuel/air and fuel/oil are two different things. "
(here's the ?) --->...once u have u'r saw tuned to the exact point that it is 4strokin @ wot & 2strokin as u go into the load in the wood... would u be able to tell the difference by sound or with a tach if the mix ratio was ...say 300:1 or 16:1 ? Does extreme ratio's change the rpm's?"
Schipp


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## one.man.band

just lost 10 minutes of slow typing somehow, hate it when that happens!

50:1 is what manufacturer recommends for my saw. Works for me. Starts up after a few pulls, idles well, plug color fine, changed plug once in the last 5 years (didn't need to, but did anyway), cuts wood. See no reason to change.

Folks here run everything from 16:1 to 100:1. Those folks who run at the extreme limits know how to tune their saws, and have good results, and see no reason to change.

Folks who soup up saws have had their fingers in hundreds/thousands of saws, know what ratios their saws like, and most definitely know how to tune, no question. Folks who own those types of saws are experienced tuners as well. They want the most out of their saws, and tune accordingly.

50:1 is 2% oil/gas mix. For every 1% change, it roughly equates to about 1 jet size. Most 2 stroke carbs have jets that come in 1% size increments that i have come across anyway. Saws however, have adjustment screws. Suggest small tuning adjustments are necessary if increasing oil ratio to 2.5% or decreasing to 1.5%. Will the saw blow up if you don't retune? Probably not. Will it run better after retuning? Certainly. For a 1% change or more either way, it would be necessary to re-tune properly IMO to avoid potential engine problems.

Changing ratios without retuning is not the best idea. There is great tuning advice threads found elsewhere on this site from folks who definitely know their stuff. Mix ratio charts are available as well.


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## Alan Farms Jr

As a small engine mechanic I'll say this. "Non-ethanol" gas is the most important thing to use. Using 40-1 or even 25-1 is recommended. The oil lubricants do a much better job w/non-ethanol gas. Period. We small engine mechanics see 80% plus, of our work, due to ethanol gas. It's horrible for all small engines, especially the carburetors. The pistons and rings wear more aggressively, due to ethanol. Yes, the EPA and the oil companies know this, but not the average "Joe." In Europe and Asia the recommended fuel mix is 25-1 in all 2 cycle small engines! Happy Trails!


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## 7sleeper

Sorry my friend but this is NOT true. Recommended mix ratio here is in Europe has been 1:50 for at least a quater of the century. 

And over here in german speaking forums we DON'T have small engine mechanics complaining about 80% plus due to ethanol gas. And yes there have been more problems since the changeover to higher ethanol content, but never in the dimensions you describe. Further there isn't any scientific proof for more aggressiv piston or ring wear that I am aware of. 
And yes 10% ethanol has been on the market for at least a decade and before that there has been 5% ethanol content. 

And as I have mentioned here already countless times, the fuel providers or oil companies are NOT to blame here. They are simply doing what the law tells them to for many years. The real problem are the manufacturers of two/four stroke equipement who are simply not reacting accordingly and producing the right equipement resistant to ethanol in the fuel!

7


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## wde_1978

I aim at 50:1 for my chainsaws, and 40:1 for my weed eaters.
The actual percentage tends to be a tad richer as I usually pull a bit more oil into the measuring syringe just to be on the safe side.

Switching between 50:1 and 40:1 on my saws doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference in behavior or power output.
On the other hand switching between different oils can make a huge difference.
I like Dolmar and Makita 2 stroke oil.
I have tried "INA" (Croatian manufacturer), Ratioparts and Divinol - I guess it works OK, but I didn't like it for my chainsaws once I discovered and got used to the Dolmar oil.
Divinol 2 stroke oil at 40:1 leaves a ceramic like glazing on the muffler outlet and smokes quite a lot. I stopped using it in my chainsaws mainly because of the glazing, but will spend the remaining stash on my weed eaters as they are much more affordable to replace if something goes wrong after all (1.5kW generic supermarket weed eater with 3 years warranty ~100$).

We (my dad and I) tried running an 1960's Sachs Stamo 96 2 stroke engine mower at 25:1 using nowadays 2 stroke oil. It smoked extremely and within the first tank of fuel the engine started choking on excessive unburnt oil. We reduced the mix to 40:1 and the engine handles it much better.

Thus far I used only non-E pump fuel, leaded while it was available, unleaded nowadays.

My 1980's Sachs-Dolmar 105 is sporting all her factory original rubber pars and carb kit - KNOCK ON WOOD!


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## Alan Farms Jr

Let me make it clear. Ethanol is a solvent. It attracts a lot of moisture(H2O) over a short period of time. It then becomes very acidic. This eats away at the carbs as well as the internal combustion chamber. The plastics and rubber then get hard and even brittle. Too much water in the gas can cause catastrophic damage. Check out www.youtube.com and the video's on ethanol gas and it's hazardous properties. Look, I'm just a small engine mechanic. I love ethanol gas for one reason only; I make a "sh*t load." of money because of it. "Take it or leave it". Happy Trails!


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## blsnelling

IMHO E10 is not a problem at all unless it's allowed to get stale or improperly stored and moisture get in it. Keep your fuel less than 6 months old and I doubt you'll have any issues, other than accelerated fuel line/carb diaphragm deterioration. But, as far as running goes, it's a non-issue, IMHO.


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## bwalker

This thread has so many old wives tails and bad info in it that it should be taken down.


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## weimedog

Joe92GT said:


> Speaking of dirt biking, does anyone use the high quality dirt bike synthetic oil? Specifically maxima castor 927 (castor oil) ?



32:1 with Bel-Ray H1R for saws and dirt bikes....or simply 32:1 with Husqvarna Branded synthetic when I don't see Bel-Ray on the shelf. There are several really good motorcycle targeted oils out there. Over kill? Maybe. But the more I see especially of the newer strato saws with all that raw air carried by the piston has kept me in the "if it ain't broke don't fix" it modus opperendi with 32:1. One thing is the typical saw enthusiast here has multiple saws and will rarely run them enough to even tell a difference say between 32:1 and 40:1. I do see more than a few repair jobs from the commercial types. All I can say it anything to push statistics in the direction of more reliability is a good idea...


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## rwoods

As I posted in the latest fuel thread, I can't believe that in one morning I have actually read a fuel thread and an oil thread as I usually don't read either much less post in them as all I know about fuel and oil is anecdotal. 

FWIW, the manufacturer's recommendations for my two strokes range from 32/1 to 50/1 with many of mine at 40/1. I used to mix all three. Now I just mix two. 40/1 and 32/1. 40/1 goes in everything except my saws with a manufacturer's recommendation of 32/1 and my one ported saw. Zero issues. Overkill maybe.

Ron


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## Little Al

In Europe and Asia the recommended fuel mix is 25-1 in all 2 cycle small engines! Happy Trails![/QUOTE]
Where did you obtain that info from? the big 2 recommend 2%with their own oil which =50/1 & 3 to 4% if you use other brands of oil. Efco are 2% ers as well.All the modern hedge trimmers Blowers etc are 2% With Quality oil.The saws that are produced in Europe are in a lot of cases exported to the US so why would the mix ratio differ, the only difference we have were I live is ALL of our fuel is E free.


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## HuskyHeadDave

7sleeper said:


> Sorry my friend but this is NOT true. Recommended mix ratio here is in Europe has been 1:50 for at least a quater of the century.
> 
> And over here in german speaking forums we DON'T have small engine mechanics complaining about 80% plus due to ethanol gas. And yes there have been more problems since the changeover to higher ethanol content, but never in the dimensions you describe. Further there isn't any scientific proof for more aggressiv piston or ring wear that I am aware of.
> And yes 10% ethanol has been on the market for at least a decade and before that there has been 5% ethanol content.
> 
> And as I have mentioned here already countless times, the fuel providers or oil companies are NOT to blame here. They are simply doing what the law tells them to for many years. The real problem are the manufacturers of two/four stroke equipement who are simply not reacting accordingly and producing the right equipement resistant to ethanol in the fuel!
> 
> 7




Wrong.... Start building saws and tearing them down multiple times a year and you'll see the film on internal parts...colors...carbon...all internal parts period. 32 is great...40 is what I run because it's tuned rich and 50 with the addition of moonshine and the water it collects breaks the film in the cylinder...on the cylinder walls and the piston skirt. It's streatched to its max and then with the addition of a slightly lean condition or minor air leak from eaten rubber fuel or intake lean condition you have catistrofic failure. At 32 you hear higher RPM's and feel a power boost and should immediately realize you have an issue... The internals survive to run another day!


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## 7sleeper

Sorry but irrespective of 1:32, 1:40 or 1:50, if you don't hear your saw is running wrong because of an air leak, there is nothing in the world that is going to save your saw. Not more oil or rich tuned carb, nothing! 

And I don't want to tear down saws multiple times a year, because if you have to do that to your saw something is wrong anyhow. And for me saws are a tool, and they are used and not cradled to sleep. If I look at what the pro's do here, they have absolutely NO problem with running the saws for years on end at 1:50. And miraculously as most pros, they only have to exchange them after 2-4 years. But you can feel free to come over and tell they are stupid because they are doing this. 

Then again one has to wonder why the chainsaw companies are recomending 1:50 for ALL their two stroke epuipement even in countries where NO EPA exists....

Further nobody actually knows if a saw engine will run for ever if you increase oil to 1:32 but to be honest no one wants the saw after 4-5 years pro use, because a lot of other things are already getting "loose". 

7


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## CR888

50:1=2% oil in fuel mix, 40:1=2.5% oil in fuel mix. Does anyone realise how many thousands of pages of gozzoble have been written about this minute fact. Wish I could say its funny but...


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## bmwpowere36m3

I'd venture to say there's more variability in mix ratio simply due to human error... how may users are actually metering out the required fuel quantity or simply relying on the marks on the side of the can or eyeballing it. When a manufacturer states 50:1, you can bet there's already a safety factor built-in.

Oil technology moves forward, just like days past of 3k motor oil changes. In days past equipment needed 25:1, 32:1 because that was the capability of oil at the time. I read a paper regarding oil Amsoil tested and it was able to run at 300:1. However they knew, there was no way to sell it... or convince consumers. 

That said, there was also a paper regarding power vs. mix ratio... it concluded that more oil (to a degree) was better for power (needed to be tuned as well). Everyone likes to think their saws are precious and their using them in "extreme" circumstances. Certainly there are applications that can warrant slightly lower mix ratio (more oil). Personally I stick to 50:1 in everything using high quality semi/syn oil. If I get a chance to run Amsoil Saber, I'll going to jump to 80:1 without worries.

I mix 1 gal at a time, so when you get to the really high mix ratios, the error in measurement for oil gets too high (for me).


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## Hoolio

32-1. Stihl ultra hp. With 98ron. Don't know that much about fuel but I figure the octane levels drop over time? So it should last longer? It's non ethanol and apparently burns cleaner in a four cycle car engines. 
Also being 32:1 if for example if someone used the wipper snipper and topped it up with straight fuel it could still be around 50-1 and should run slightly richer. I think that's how it works?


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## weimedog

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> I'd venture to say there's more variability in mix ratio simply due to human error... how may users are actually metering out the required fuel quantity or simply relying on the marks on the side of the can or eyeballing it. When a manufacturer states 50:1, you can bet there's already a safety factor built-in.
> 
> Oil technology moves forward, just like days past of 3k motor oil changes. In days past equipment needed 25:1, 32:1 because that was the capability of oil at the time. I read a paper regarding oil Amsoil tested and it was able to run at 300:1. However they knew, there was no way to sell it... or convince consumers.
> 
> That said, there was also a paper regarding power vs. mix ratio... it concluded that more oil (to a degree) was better for power (needed to be tuned as well). Everyone likes to think their saws are precious and their using them in "extreme" circumstances. Certainly there are applications that can warrant slightly lower mix ratio (more oil). Personally I stick to 50:1 in everything using high quality semi/syn oil. If I get a chance to run Amsoil Saber, I'll going to jump to 80:1 without worries.
> 
> I mix 1 gal at a time, so when you get to the really high mix ratios, the error in measurement for oil gets too high (for me).



I am hoping you really test the theory and report. Especially the 300:1 Someone has to put their money where their mouth is. So much speculation based on what someone ELSE has said or written. Some extrapolated from pure marketing presentations. Others from experts who rarely crack a set of cases to see the results of other users habits. Being an old man from the stone age with glasses, I happen to measure with one of those "Ratio Right" Measuring cups at 32:1, with Husqvarna Synthetic or Bel-Ray. Maybe with your testing you could save me a pile of money using a lot less oil.. or maybe someone else will be enlightened to the modern ways of petroleum chemistry. If nothing else it would be a good read & possible a fun YouTube Video. But for now, until I see reasons to change....sticking with 32:1... I have an open mind...just I like Empirical Data that I can see vs. speculation. Unfortunately to this point in time the most significant advances I've seen this last 15 years or so have been in the marketing and packaging from what I can tell. I for one would love to see some changes! SO...if they are out there .. let it RIP!

(I've seen more than a few reasons to STAY with what I do this past three years! )


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## bmwpowere36m3

weimedog said:


> I am hoping you really test the theory and report. Especially the 300:1 Someone has to put their money where their mouth is. So much speculation based on what someone ELSE has said or written. Some extrapolated from pure marketing presentations. Others from experts who rarely crack a set of cases to see the results of other users habits. Being an old man from the stone age with glasses, I happen to measure with one of those "Ratio Right" Measuring cups at 32:1, with Husqvarna Synthetic or Bel-Ray. Maybe with your testing you could save me a pile of money using a lot less oil.. or maybe someone else will be enlightened to the modern ways of petroleum chemistry. If nothing else it would be a good read & possible a fun YouTube Video. But for now, until I see reasons to change....sticking with 32:1... I have an open mind...just I like Empirical Data that I can see vs. speculation. Unfortunately to this point in time the most significant advances I've seen this last 15 years or so have been in the marketing and packaging from what I can tell. I for one would love to see some changes! SO...if they are out there .. let it RIP!
> 
> (I've seen more than a few reasons to STAY with what I do this past three years! )



Did I recommend running 300:1? Amsoil will only warranty/guarantee Saber Pro against any damage caused the oil when used at 80 to 100:1. Use whatever makes you feel comfortable. We deal with people that still can't accept oil changes past 3k in our business... I also noted running that high of mix is not necessarily good for power. Depending on equipment and use, low mix ratios can lead to excess carbon build up, lose in power and excessive smoke/emissions.

If your saying there's a difference between 40 to 50:1, then I'll say you've probably run that range unknowingly.

At 300:1... you'd better be measuring very accurately. Is it going to save you any money? Depends on how much mix you go thru. Is it worth the risk? Again, depends. We've been running 50:1 in all our Stihl and Echo equipment for the last 20 yrs without issue. That's my experience... 

AND

Oil, fuel, ethanol and mix discussions are like religion.... for the most part, people are stuck in their ways and people have very strong beliefs.


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## bmwpowere36m3

More importantly is having a properly tuned saw... do more damage in my opinion than the mix ratios were talking about.


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## weimedog

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> I also noted running that high of mix is not necessarily good for power. Depending on equipment and use, low mix ratios can lead to excess carbon build up, lose in power and excessive smoke/emissions.
> 
> .



And religion is about belief in something more than a "believer' can understand...so they have to have faith... Good analogy I think.. So just out of curiosity. WHAT has more BTU's per unit volume. Oil or Gasoline? And based on the understanding of that, what has more energy per pop, 80:1 or 32:1? Is oil a fuel and contributing to power or something less and reduces the amount of energy released? Like I said, just an old man and can always learn. And a question for the History buffs Caster Bean Oil..is it still on the market and if so why? Last but least to the motorcycle guys, remember the old Bel-Ray MC1? They came out with H1R and that was a huge advance  Pretty much had to run the MC-1 at 50:1.....not so with the H1r. I think the first two stroke I had to rebuild was in 1971, and it was an old 1970 Bultaco Sherpa S 200. That is a confession or admission depending on your perspective.

I also think the definition of "no trouble" is hard to quantify in discussions like this as there are so many different service conditions. There are a lot of two strokes running 50:1 and lasting their intended service life, and why for so many years it has been recommended...along with the advent of the newer generation synthetics and just good quality oil. AND its easy to point to user error when things in fact fail. Cylinder packed with crud, dull chains...etc.The real question is what does that mean? Does mixtures like 32:1 meet that standard as well? And which do better in special cases that push the boundaries of the properties of those oils? Especially with these new Strato saws retaining more heat in the system and also washing a whole section of the top end with raw air. Is 50:1 a better choice than say 40:1 or even 32:1? Does it even matter? Curious as to your thoughts.


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## bmwpowere36m3

I'm far from an expert, but my educated guess would be 2-stroke oil has more [BTUs]... however all the tests/reports seem to attribute the increase in HP to better ring seal and thus higher compression. I would also believe more oil would increase the octane of gasoline (i.e., harder to ignite oil than fuel), but that's likely insignificant.

Castor bean oil is still sold, like Maxima 927. Some old timers and racers swear by it. My understanding is it had/has some better lubrication properties, but they come at a cost... separation from fuel and deposit control. Now how does it compare to today's semi-synthetic and synthetic oils from a lubrication stand-point.... I don't know. Newer oils defiantly have better deposit control and less likely to separate.


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## Yoopermike

A saw running 50:1 runs cooler than a saw running 40:1 as the fuel itself helps cool the saw.


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## chuckwood

JustinM said:


> You're going to get all sorts of opinions on the matter.
> 
> End of the day, as long as you're using quality mix and not letting it sit around for ages, I think you're fine with either 40 or 50 to 1. I personally use 40 to 1 in everything simply because its easier to remember for _all _of my saws and equipment, and its one of those cases where its just "worked for me" always.



I mix everything 40 to 1 because my brush cutters and Ryobi weed eaters, except for one Husky brush cutter, are all labeled 40:1 mix. Been using 40:1 high octane 100% gas mix in chain saw milling which really puts serious stress on saws. So far, no problems. I am switching over to full synthetic instead of synthetic blends. I run milling saws a bit rich, fearing heat problems more than carbon build up.


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## weimedog

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> I'm far from an expert, but my educated guess would be 2-stroke oil has more [BTUs]... however all the tests/reports seem to attribute the increase in HP to better ring seal and thus higher compression. I would also believe more oil would increase the octane of gasoline (i.e., harder to ignite oil than fuel), but that's likely insignificant.
> 
> Castor bean oil is still sold, like Maxima 927. Some old timers and racers swear by it. My understanding is it had/has some better lubrication properties, but they come at a cost... separation from fuel and deposit control. Now how does it compare to today's semi-synthetic and synthetic oils from a lubrication stand-point.... I don't know. Newer oils defiantly have better deposit control and less likely to separate.



Now we are getting somewhere. Not all the reports attribute all the power gains to better seal but many do and that is one of the benefits to adding more oil. More BTU's with the "mix" has an effect as well but really how do you quantify that? There is a measurable increase in temps and part of the reason why is the more BTU's released and part might be the operating compression. But how would you test and measure the percentage of power gains attributed to those different attributes? Often time "reports" are observations and then best guess rationalizations to what they observed. Add marketing to that and they are there to make a point. I would say the higher oil ratio's give a multitude of small advantages that include better sealing of the rings and more BTU's as well. There are others... Octane is more about stability and allows a tuner to get closer to that pre-ignition edge. The beauty of products like Bel-Ray H1R and others are the fact you can mix those higher ratio's without a significant increase in residue in the exhaust. Bean oil does burn dirty but has a unique smell that many racers grow to appreciate as one of the back ground things you remember from the racing world. Klotz used to sell a Caster Oil along with a few other very targeted product for situations. Actually worth a visit to their website if it's still around. Of course 4-Strokes made that go away....Racers are all about empirical vs. theoretical. They live in a world where success is defined by simple numbers. Often time the best real information is gathered there. But this is progress.... 

(We can discuss the lubrication side another time)


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