# Poperty Wood Thinning Question



## sdhershey (Jan 12, 2011)

I would like to thin out some trees on my property, how is this usually done? Kinda broad, but I don't know how to ask it any other way. Thanks


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## brownd (Jan 12, 2011)

Yes pretty broad. Type of trees and what is your objective?


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## sdhershey (Jan 12, 2011)

For trees mostly poplar, pine, and some small maples. I would like the maples to get some more sunlight and have some more space to grow, but if I cut down everything else, there wouldn't be much privacy at all. I also have questions about what to do with the wood that's being cut. Some of it may be good, I don't want to have to torch it all.


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## slowp (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm on the west coast, but some things are the same logging wise. You need to figure out what spacing you need for your objective and what species you want left. Then figure out how much volume you are taking out, what quality and species...a timber cruise. Then is it worth selling it? Logging it? Hiring a logger?
Where are you going to sell the logs? 

Logging wise. If it is worth it, how flat is your ground? How dry? Are your trees limb locked? Limb locked means grown into each other so if felled by hand, they won't hit the ground easily, they want to stay hung up. Using a feller buncher handles that well.

Do you want machinery on your ground? What kind of roads and access is there?
Are there already old skid trails on the property or will new ones need to be cut out? Where would the landings be? What kind of loggers are in your area? 

What permits. if any. will be needed? I've probably left out some stuff. You'll want to talk these and other details with a local person. A forester maybe or somebody with experience.


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## redprospector (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm sure it's different everywhere you go. But around here there isn't really a market for saw logs, and Pine/Fir firewood (mostly what we cut) brings about $150 a full cord. There's a pellet mill about 35 miles away, down a 6% grade that's 16 miles long, that will pay $18 a green ton for small logs. So the wood isn't really worth much of anything. 
I charge by the acre, and the price depends on the prescription for the property, ground conditions, and total number of acres. After all is said and done the wood belongs to me. I actually charge a little less if the land owner wants to keep the wood and deal with it theirselves. Most of the private land I do is "total removal". All of the wood is removed (or decked if the land owner wants to keep it), and the slash and tops are mulched in place, or chipped.
Hopefully there is a market in your area that will allow you to recoup most or all of the expenses. Heck if you have a good enough market you might make a little, but I doubt it.

Andy


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## Double_Diamond (Jan 13, 2011)

Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

Double_Diamond said:


> Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.


 I have heard about that how do you get into it?


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I have heard about that how do you get into it?


 
And they allow you to do the work your self?


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## Double_Diamond (Jan 13, 2011)

The local resource conservation district sent out a flyer to all the property owners in the area that we live. They were having a meeting that explained the government program and gave the contact information for the people administering it. It is a two part program. The first part involved hiring a registered forester and having them write up a management plan. Once the plan was approved the NRCS direct deposited the money in my bank account and I paid the forester. 

The second part is the implementation of the plan. You can do all the work yourself or hire someone. All the NRCS cares about is that the plan be fully implemented and completed. Once completed, they pay you. In my case the first task is tree thinning. About 5 acres is pretty dense in pine and cedar. I am hand thinning to about 18' o.c., piling and burning the slash. The second phase is the brush thinning. It is all manzanita anywhere from 8 to 12' tall. I am going to rent a mini excavator to rip it out and pile it for burning. I was able to tell the forester exactly what I wanted to do and he just incorporated it into his plan. 

So far the people I have been dealing with at the NRCS have been very easy to work with and used common sense to make decisions which was a welcome surprise.


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## 2dogs (Jan 13, 2011)

I've worked with the NRCS a few times and had good experiences.


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## indiansprings (Jan 13, 2011)

I if were the OP I would contact the local state forester and have him come out and evaluate the property. Here in Mo. it doesn't cost you a dime, they will mark the trees that need removed and help you develop a sound mgnt plan.


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## 371groundie (Jan 13, 2011)

hire a forester. even if its just for a consulation. 

'thinning' is a term descibing the silvicultural practice of removing trees from a stand to allow other trees more space/light/water/nutrients to grow. typically you remove the poorly formed or low value trees to allow the good trees to get bigger and thus more valuable. its a science and an art. and somone who doesnt know what they are doing usually commit silvicultural abominations. 

from what youve said i suspect that most of the popple should come out leaving the pine and maple that are both more valuable and longer lived. you can also remove the pines and maples that are poorly formed or showing signs of decline. but thats like me telling you to replace your head gasket without looking at your car. 

seriously, hire a forester, they can not only tell you whats best for the stand/land, but also whats best financially.


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## TMFARM 2009 (Jan 13, 2011)

and amen to that!!!! well said.


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## redprospector (Jan 13, 2011)

Double_Diamond said:


> Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.


 
That's pretty similar to some of the programs available here through the State Forestry. They have what they call a "cost share" program for owners of smaller properties. The State Forestry (through the federal government) will pay up to 70% of the cost of a contractor up to $1150 per acre for their part. Larger property owners (100 acres or more) who's property qualifies can get 100% funding with a cap of about $1500 per acre. 
These are the jobs I work on most of the time. I'm working on a 240 acre project right now, and found out today that funding for another 160 acres was available if the land owner and I were interested. We were both laughing as we tried to express our interest. Job security...............I love it!
Gologit told me several months ago things would pick up. Gotta hand it to him, the man knows what he's talking about.

Andy


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

There's an NRCS forester job opening near here. I wonder if it would be about advising in situations similar to this? I wonder if I ought to apply?


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

redprospector said:


> That's pretty similar to some of the programs available here through the State Forestry. They have what they call a "cost share" program for owners of smaller properties. The State Forestry (through the federal government) will pay up to 70% of the cost of a contractor up to $1150 per acre for their part. Larger property owners (100 acres or more) who's property qualifies can get 100% funding with a cap of about $1500 per acre.
> These are the jobs I work on most of the time. I'm working on a 240 acre project right now, and found out today that funding for another 160 acres was available if the land owner and I were interested. We were both laughing as we tried to express our interest. Job security...............I love it!
> Gologit told me several months ago things would pick up. Gotta hand it to him, the man knows what he's talking about.
> 
> Andy


 
That's what I am wondering I have 40 acres I have already cleared some for food plots and access trails but the majority is ultra thick 20 year re-growth. The thing is what hardwood was left is going to stay and it don't matter what a forester thinks I don't plan to cut my oaks. I will cut the smaller ones and thin the pine I have tractor ,saws ,grapple truck so I could effectively get the work done could I be my own contractor and get paid essentially to perform the plan?


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> could I be my own contractor and get paid essentially to perform the plan?



Incorporated, perhaps. That gives me an idea.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Incorporated, perhaps. That gives me an idea.


 
I am probably on the same page lol creating work and beautifying my property not a bad deal?


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

Indeed!


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## redprospector (Jan 14, 2011)

Rope, I don't know if they would let you do the work yourself or not. Or if a similar program is available in your neck of the woods or not.
They don't let many land owners do their own here. I think they had some bad experiences in the past.
Around here the thinning is mostly of conifers, for fire prevention. But I do know that to recieve the grant you have to follow the foresters perscription. They're paying the bill, so they want the say on what goes.

Andy


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm sure there's some control in place in any state to prevent any individual property owner from double-dipping into his own assets. However, I'm not at all sure that there's any controls preventing a group of property owners from spreading around both ecological and financial benefits. This will require research, to be sure, but it may be an unexplored market for small-scale agriforestry.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Rope, I don't know if they would let you do the work yourself or not. Or if a similar program is available in your neck of the woods or not.
> They don't let many land owners do their own here. I think they had some bad experiences in the past.
> Around here the thinning is mostly of conifers, for fire prevention. But I do know that to recieve the grant you have to follow the foresters perscription. They're paying the bill, so they want the say on what goes.
> 
> Andy


 That would be a killing factor for one, no one cuts but me on my land. Second if the plan consisted of turning the land to crap by cutting my oaks reducing my deer herd, the plan has no merit. I have seen what these foresters do to our national forests and do not agree with their prescriptions. You need mast and they act like they don't want nothing but pine. I know they are thinking dollars yield per acre and time but mature oaks are getting to be a endangered species in our national forest of today.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

On the same topic my stands are healthy but are real close together. My plan is to grow them in that state until near retirement then sell to the pole yard for power poles, which bring more than timber. We have a pole yard, I cut the damaged and leaner's, double heart, crooked or diseased everything else stays.


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

Ah, but peelers bring more than poles. It's possible to have a multi-storied canopy and harvest both by deliberately suppressing some. Some of the nicest grain I've seen has been not in OG but in suppressed trees.


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## floyd (Jan 14, 2011)

One thins to increase the value of the residual stand. If you are thinning to release then you are already too late. However if one just acquired the stand then that is your reference point. Deep, eh?

Don't expect to retire or make a living on your own ground from NCRS. It was 50-75% cost share when I took advantage of it. Worked out to $3.25/hr.


You know it's funny. Everyone always says hire a forester. Does anyone ever really hire one?


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## slowp (Jan 14, 2011)

floyd said:


> One thins to increase the value of the residual stand. If you are thinning to release then you are already too late. However if one just acquired the stand then that is your reference point. Deep, eh?
> 
> Don't expect to retire or make a living on your own ground from NCRS. It was 50-75% cost share when I took advantage of it. Worked out to $3.25/hr.
> 
> ...



I'm not a real forester, but I help my friends for beer and hotdogs. Or pizza and beer. :smile-big:


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

Beer is a universal currency, I think. A person can get a lot done with a couple six-packs and the right kind of friends!


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## sdhershey (Jan 14, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Beer is a universal currency, I think. A person can get a lot done with a couple six-packs and the right kind of friends!


 
Well put, and totally true


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## zogger (Jan 14, 2011)

*What?*



Double_Diamond said:


> Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.



--no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.

Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable. 

Dang I don't want anyone here mad at me, but shazzam! It's in the headlines and stuff, we are about flat busted, to three or four generations out already.


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## sdhershey (Jan 14, 2011)

zogger said:


> --no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.
> 
> Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
> I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.
> ...


 
Real good point


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## indiansprings (Jan 14, 2011)

Rope, here in MO, they will let you be your own contractor. They are cost sharing on planting trees for windbreaks, don't remember the exact figures but at the end you could put decent change in your pocket if you did it all yourself.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 14, 2011)

Getting a forester will save you time and alot of guesswork and no two foresters will mark the trees the same way.
As the owner though you can do it easily yourself. You want to select the more dominant trees of good form, leave them and cut the lower grade that are supressing them. Strive for an uneven aged stand with some species diversity.
Some voids in the stand are desireable, but in an ideal world dominant trees should have 5 ft. between crowns.
So maybe do an initial cleaning at first and then further down the road you can do a pre- commercial thinning and then a harvesting of some mature trees.
The whole thing may be a 10-20 year projection before it becomes lucritive, but it is well worth it. Try to avoid over cutting and leave a buffer strip around the edges of the stand to prevent the ravages of wind.
Most of all, have fun, plus, if done right it's just $ in the bank.
John


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2011)

Solid post. I'd rep you if I could. Agreed on all counts.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 14, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Solid post. I'd rep you if I could. Agreed on all counts.


 
Thanks madhatte. A few things I forgot to say is that anyone can thin and cut down trees, but the trick is to not damage the residual trees by debarking and busting up crowns of crop trees. Some damage is inevitable. It's the careless damage that must be avoided.
Think of the crop trees as cars parked in a Walmart parking lot. We don't bang into those,so try not to bang up the trees. Lol.
It's also ok to leave the odd 'goon tree' for wildlife, unless you don't like racoons and porcupines. Lol
With some mature hardwood you may be looking at a value of 500- 4500 each depending upon species and grade.
Timber is still the most valuable crop out there if managed right.
John


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## redprospector (Jan 14, 2011)

zogger said:


> --no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.
> 
> Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
> I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.
> ...


 
Zogger,
In most cases I would agree with you on cutting things like this to help with the budget.....................But..........................Around here the funding of private land thinning was put into practice because it's way cheaper to thin than to fight fires. Private land here is totaly surrounded by National Forest, so if a fire starts on private land it threatens the forest. On the other hand if a fire starts in the forest it threatens private property. In my opinion this is one of the few cost effective programs that the gubermint has put into practice.

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 14, 2011)

zogger said:


> --no offense friend, but this is exactly the sort of thing needs to be cut out of the budget. Across the board, wasteful military spending, inner city welfare spending (I think multiple generations in a row is more than enough time to learn "get a job"), spending to pay farmers not to grow (we used to just buy surplus to use for actual real emergency food aid) or..pay homeowners to manage their own private woodlots?? Say whut?? Why should tax payers do this? We need to cut trillions from the budget to keep from going bust economically, our society destroyed, etc, and it all adds up. From the smallest unnecessqry expense to the largest, across the board..cut like crazy before it is too late.
> 
> Again, not ranking you personally, just wasn't aware of this deal and it sure sounds like something that doesn't need to happen on the tax payer's nickle.
> I don't think folks out in the sticks need to be taxed to pay for..like subways...and folks in town don't need to be taxed to pay for..private woodlots. There's just way too much of this stuff that goes on, plus it always involves yet another huge government bureaucracy with legions of busywork jobs, then lifelong pensions for said jobs, etc. This just spend like crazy for everything under the sun is simply unsustainable.
> ...


 
It's a heck of lot cheaper than the suppression costs for a wildfire. A lot our timber land out here has a definite urban interface and thinning programs protect homeowners as well as landowners. It's a rare wildfire out here that doesn't burn some houses along with timber.

I'm a homeowner and a timber land owner as well. I like the program and I'd like to see more of it.

We appreciate your concern but you might be better advised to do some homework about our forestry and land concerns before you start running your mouth.


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## hammerlogging (Jan 14, 2011)

Zogger, while your sentiments are understandable, I think you may have also failed to consider elements we look at here in the east. WHile our fire mitigation concerns pale in comparison to those of out west, TSI cost share does benefit our rural economies by encouraging the faster growth rate of sawlog thus encouraging rural manufacturing. Through the economic incentive of faster production of valuable forest products, more land is retained in forest for the benefit of all society via cleaner water, cleaner air and more wildlife habitat.


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## floyd (Jan 15, 2011)

Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.

Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 15, 2011)

floyd said:


> Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.
> 
> Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.


 
Why don't all the banks pay back their bailout's few monies are paid to any middle class its high time the government puts more emphasis on we the people imo. I wonder how many of the people in foreclosed property could have made it if they were helped vrs banks? Now I am worried about ending up there with the economy the banks and rich power players manufactured. I get welfare is wasteful but things that benefit working class almost are non-existent why? Is it because the power is afraid of middle class being able to stand -up? Anyway; being a baby boomer I know I'm likely screwed out of all my paid in money to ss. I just anger thinking about it all.


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## slowp (Jan 15, 2011)

floyd said:


> Then maybe you all should man up & spend your own money instead of our tax dollars. Bottom line the feds spend more than thay take in.
> 
> Something has to give. Why don't you start a trend & be personally responsible for your own ground.



WE can but a lot of folks are clueless. I lived in NE Arizona where the clueless go for the Summer. Ponderosa Pine grows there, like a weed. There were big developments in the midst of the woods. You'd see sights like an extremely suppressed P Pine sapling trying to die, and a rope would be around it, propping it up to "save" it in a yard full of trees. The people had no clue. 

Then the Rodeo Chadisky fire went through. You might want to look up how much that suppression cost. 

Of course, fire suppression now supports many little communities that once were supported by timber harvests. But that's another discussion. 

Thinning is cheap insurance. Where the forest had been logged and thinned, the Rodeo Chadisky fire laid down. Where the forest was left alone, it crowned out and got going. I wasn't there, but a forester friend said it did a nice underburn in the areas we commercially thinned. The Mexican Spotted Owl areas, which were off limits to log, were fried. Houses were burned-- the usual story. 

I'm not sure if I'm spelling Chadisky right.


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## forestryworks (Jan 15, 2011)

Rodeo-Chediski


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## slowp (Jan 15, 2011)

Thinning from the logging side thoughts. 

When we started having commercial thins, back in the early 1980s, nobody wanted to do it. One guy started specializing in it. He had a small, swing yarder. Most of the logging was old growth clearcuts then. He struggled, figured it out, and soon had more work than he could handle. 

More guys got into it. Now that's all the logging that is done on the National Forest. Some of the fallers tell me they like to fall in thinnings. It is more of a challenge and they take pride in doing a good job. 

The rigging crews do not like thinnings. Thinnings are more work. Sometimes logs have to be unhooked and rehooked to keep from damaging the leave trees.
This happens more when the forester is out in the brush checking stuff.:smile:..They like thinnings on a hot summer day because there is shade. 

If you do log your patch, you'll want to get out and keep an eye on things. I call it giving them the stink eye. It works...to a point. As a hooktender said, "We got more eyes than you." It was humor in the woods. :good:


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## Rick Alger (Jan 15, 2011)

I do a fair amount of commercial and pre-commercial thinning in Northern, NH. Here the NRCS pays 75% of the cost up to $150 per acre if it's a pre-commercial project. But if there is merchantable wood to be harvested they won't fund the work.

Low-grade wood is very hard to move profitably in this area. It will rarely pay for the thinning.

The NRCS figures it costs on average $200 / acre for the thinnings they subsidize.


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## floyd (Jan 15, 2011)

I am well aware of the cost of fire suppression thank you very much. 

I understand thinning decreases the catastrophic effects of unplanned fires in the woods. 

What I do not understand is why everyone feels the need to do it with tax dollars instead of their own money.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 15, 2011)

floyd said:


> I am well aware of the cost of fire suppression thank you very much.
> 
> I understand thinning decreases the catastrophic effects of unplanned fires in the woods.
> 
> What I do not understand is why everyone feels the need to do it with tax dollars instead of their own money.


 
Maybe most of us don't know what its like to have money! Many middle class have been taxed until there is no money. Tax dollars coming back to them don't sound so bad!


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## redprospector (Jan 15, 2011)

floyd said:


> I am well aware of the cost of fire suppression thank you very much.
> 
> I understand thinning decreases the catastrophic effects of unplanned fires in the woods.
> 
> What I do not understand is why everyone feels the need to do it with tax dollars instead of their own money.


 
I think it's a "risk asessment". They figure that if they wait for the private land owners to do it on their own it probably won't get done. I don't know about other places but around here owning 160 acres or so dosen't mean you've got any money. A lot of it was "home steaded" over 100 years ago and passed down through the generations. Some of these people are doing all they can to keep the property taxes paid (which are pretty low here), much less come up with $240,000 to have the thinning done. There are some folks with money who come in and buy one of the old home stead's, but most of them don't want to cut any trees. 
I think it's one of the very few good & usefull programs that the government has going.

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 15, 2011)

redprospector said:


> I think it's a "risk asessment". They figure that if they wait for the private land owners to do it on their own it probably won't get done. I don't know about other places but around here owning 160 acres or so dosen't mean you've got any money. A lot of it was "home steaded" over 100 years ago and passed down through the generations. Some of these people are doing all they can to keep the property taxes paid (which are pretty low here), much less come up with $240,000 to have the thinning done. There are some folks with money who come in and buy one of the old home stead's, but most of them don't want to cut any trees.
> I think it's one of the very few good & usefull programs that the government has going.
> 
> Andy


 
Good post. It's the same thing here. People figure that if you own land you're automatically wealthy. I wish that was true. It's not.

Timber prices are down and cattle prices are down, but everything else, including taxes, is up. I can wheel and deal a little on fuel and machinery and other supplies but there's no wiggle room on taxes. You pay them or else.

So...when I run across a program that enables me to improve my timber and lessen the possibility of fire and the government is willing to pay for a large portion of it I'm going to take advantage of it. I'm sure not making any money on it and my out-of-pocket expenses are considerable. I figure it's like getting a tax rebate in the form of a useful and much needed service. The people with land adjoining mine feel the same way.

Your tax money is going somewhere...why not be grateful that at least part of it is doing some good? It's creating employment and fuel sales and machinery sales which in turn create more tax revenue.

And Floyd?....Thanks for your contribution.


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## redprospector (Jan 15, 2011)

Gologit said:


> And Floyd?....Thanks for your contribution.


 
Hahahahaha! That was great.

After a rather spirited meeting (inspection) with the State Forestry a couple of months ago, the land owner I'm working for told me I needed to quit jabbing after I made my point. I'm not having much success at quitting, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. 

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks Andy. But Floyd has a good point and I understand his frustration. I'm not a very political person and I'm not going to start some kind of tax rant here but we all know that there's a lot of wasted money that doesn't produce any decent result.

So when I find something that tax dollars fund that does some real good, not only for me but for landowners in general and the public as well, I'll get on board. No apology for that, either.

I've seen first hand the results of ladder fuel eradication and precommercial thinning in the areas I work in. If somebody can come up with an immediate and cost effective alternative I'd be 100% behind it. But for now we have to work with what we have...and what we know will produce the best results.

And Floyd? If we run across each other, lunch is on me.


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## redprospector (Jan 16, 2011)

Agreed!

And Floyd, I doubt we'll run across each other. But if we do, lunch is on me. 

Andy


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## ropensaddle (Jan 16, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Agreed!
> 
> And Floyd, I doubt we'll run across each other. But if we do, lunch is on me.
> 
> Andy


 Man I am gettin hungry


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## redprospector (Jan 16, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Man I am gettin hungry


 
Tombien for you buddy. Hahahaha.

Andy


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## Gologit (Jan 16, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Man I am gettin hungry


 
You're too late...we ate the last of the canned smoked salmon that Burvol sent for breakfast. Yesterday.


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## madhatte (Jan 16, 2011)

We have a thinning project going on right now in a badly-overgrown and neglected plantation. When the project began, we thought it was gonna be just an expense. As pulpwood prices have shifted around lately, we've broken even, and even made a bit of a profit. We've also kept the small family operation doing the work in business for way longer than expected. This isn't a handout, this is a profitable operation. Granted, the circumstances are kind of unique, but that doesn't mean we won't be able to do something similar elsewhere.


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## Double_Diamond (Jan 18, 2011)

The NRCS program in our area is a good thing. I know as well as the next guy that the federal government can squander our tax dollars. This program is not one of those programs. It puts the money into the pockets of local people for a service provided that helps prevent costly fires that destroy valuable timber and destroy homes. The timber industry is way down in our area and this program helps a bit to keep some local operations going. The money is spent in the community for hard working individuals, not overseas or to someone looking for a handout. 
A lot of individuals want to clean up their property and improve their timber stand but are unable to do it themselves. This grant allows them to do it. I am lucky that I like to work on my property and am physically able to do it. I work hard, pay my taxes, and don’t go looking for handouts. So if the feds want to help me out I am not going to turn them down.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 18, 2011)

Gologit said:


> You're too late...we ate the last of the canned smoked salmon that Burvol sent for breakfast. Yesterday.


 
Man alls I got is this on a half shell


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