# Stihl 041, points or electronic



## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

On a 041, without pulling the fyl wheel can you tell if it has points or 
electronic ignition?


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## sawinredneck (Feb 22, 2007)

Look for another wire, other than the kill wire, comming off the coil, or wires running under the flywheel.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

sawinredneck said:


> Look for another wire, other than the kill wire, comming off the coil, or wires running under the flywheel.



On this one all I can see is the fly wheel, kill wire and plug wire.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 22, 2007)

Just pull the flywheel... on these old saws never trust what anyone may have done.. you might find an Nova module hiding beneath the flywheel.

Or.. you can put a multimeter on the switch wire (to ground), and turn the saw over by hand. You'll see the points open and close..


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 22, 2007)

Trigger-Time said:


> On this one all I can see is the fly wheel, kill wire and plug wire.



That's all you ever see.. The common is on the points, or module (beneath the flywheel).
Points have adjustment windows on the flywheel, but so do some electronic versions so it isn't a good guide. You can open those windows though and peak inside.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> Just pull the flywheel... on these old saws never trust what anyone may have done.. you might find an Nova module hiding beneath the flywheel.
> 
> Or.. you can put a multimeter on the switch wire (to ground), and turn the saw over by hand. You'll see the points open an close..



I have pulled a few fly wheels off without a puller on some parts
saws I have yet to damage one.....but this is not my saw (I will
buy a puller) 

Lake,I will go test it.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> That's all you ever see.. The common is on the points, or module (beneath the flywheel).
> Points have adjustment windows on the flywheel, but so do some electronic versions so it isn't a good guide. You can open those windows though and peak inside.



Lake, No windows on fly wheel, No change in ohms in 360 deg. of turn


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 22, 2007)

You'll never know for sure unless you pull it:hmm3grin2orange: but it's likely electronic.
If you have no spark and suspect a bad module, replace it with a nova; just snip the wire going under the flywheel and mount the nova on the outside.

Edit: Ignore the "snip the wire" part - I have my ignitions confused... I'm pretty sure you just put the nova module in place of the strator plate module.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> You'll never know for sure unless you pull it:hmm3grin2orange: but it's likely electronic.
> If you have no spark and suspect a bad module, replace it with a nova; just snip the wire going under the flywheel and mount the nova on the outside.



Don't have a clue............Can I buy one, online?


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 22, 2007)

Pulled fly wheel. It has no spark at all. I'm lost on this electronic stuff (and most anything else)


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 23, 2007)

*Bad?*

If I'm checking it right, its bad correct?


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 23, 2007)

Depends... The resistance will be very low on the coil primary (I don't have the 041 spec in front of me, and I'm out of town for a few days..). Your meter can resolve 0.1ohm, so... it doesn't look good. Coil failures are rare, but easy to fix. Plenty of used coils available. 

Get someone with access to a service manual to copy the page showing how to gap the replacement coil. I can get to it mid next week at the earliest.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 23, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> Depends... The resistance will be very low on the coil primary (I don't have the 041 spec in front of me, and I'm out of town for a few days..). Your meter can resolve 0.1ohm, so... it doesn't look good. Coil failures are rare, but easy to fix. Plenty of used coils available.



When I set the tester on milliohms it reads zero resistance


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 23, 2007)

*strator plate*

After pulling the strator plate off, reinstalling how do you set the
air gap?


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 23, 2007)

Trigger-Time said:


> After pulling the strator plate off, reinstalling how do you set the
> air gap?



Found a parts saw today, after taking the coil and strator plate off
the adjustment looks to be timing, not air gap. So how do you
set the timing?.............Or is the timing adjustable?
Or did they just leave the adjustment holes in the strator plate
when they switched over to the EI? *Thats what i'm guessing*


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 25, 2007)

On the old points models they are set at the factory and there is a strike mark on the plate and crank case... Line up the strike marks... If you are moving them from saw to saw.. trial and error... 

Your other questions... I'll have to dig into the 041 service manual tomorrow.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 27, 2007)

The primary resistance is 0.4 to 0.6 ohm, and the secondary (plug wire end to frame ground) is 2.7 to 3.3k ohm.

I think I'm wrong about replacing the 041 electronic system with a Nova module. The 041 electronic (two types - Bosch and SEM) has a 4 pole magnet system (to stop the saw from running backwards), not the 2 pole of the points version. The points style can be replaced with a Nova.

I have a plethora of information on both the 041 points and electronic systems. I'll need to scan it to post... in a day or so... This includes setting the air-gap and the timing (with a timing light).


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 27, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> The primary resistance is 0.4 to 0.6 ohm, and the secondary (plug wire end to frame ground) is 2.7 to 3.3k ohm.
> 
> I think I'm wrong about replacing the 041 electronic system with a Nova module. The 041 electronic (two types - Bosch and SEM) has a 4 pole magnet system (to stop the saw from running backwards), not the 2 pole of the points version. The points style can be replaced with a Nova.
> 
> I have a plethora of information on both the 041 points and electronic systems. * I'll need to scan it to post... in a day or so... This includes setting the air-gap and the timing (with a timing light).*




Lake, yes I for one would like the info. 

In this case both saws have the SEM electronic system. When I put
the donor EI in the good saw I set it as close as I could to how the
bad EI was set. It seems to run good, it took 2 pulls to start and run after setting for over 24 hours @ about 30 deg F


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## PES+ (Feb 27, 2007)

*Not to wiz on anyone's taco but......*

Could you explain to me how this ignition would prevent the saw running backwards?
And where you got such an idea?

As an aside......this saw did have a problem with coil failure due to the small coil size and complete lack of air flow for cooling.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

On points models N-N-N-S magnets.. on electronic models - N-S-S-S magnets. Common in its era... from both Bosch and SEM. The Bosch factory manual explains why it prevents the saw running in reverse. I'll try to dig up a copy. Might even be in the Stihl pages I'm about to scan. I'll get them up today.

Heat? It's a possibility, but I'm not sure you can say that's why this coil failed. It is 25+ years old, and for every rare failure there is one heck of a lot of perfectly fine working coils...


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

Here's the section on the Electronic versions.. Sorry about the size but I tried to keep the quality up for decent print. I'll play more with it...

The points version pages will follow...


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 28, 2007)

Lake, Many Thanks  

The guy that own's the saw, wants to use it this Sat.
Should I tell him to wait until after I can check the
timing? It starts ease and runs ok.........but if the
timing is to far off it could damage his saw correct?

To far advance.........hard on piston, crank and bearings.

To close to TDC........burn a hole in top of piston.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

*Points version pages*

Interesting reading.. from the days when they told you how it worked, as well as how to fix it...


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

Trigger-Time said:


> Lake, Many Thanks
> 
> The guy that own's the saw, wants to use it this Sat.
> Should I tell him to wait until after I can check the
> ...




Not sure what to tell you... you know the issues...


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 28, 2007)

Lakeside53 said:


> Not sure what to tell you... you know the issues...



I guess I will rig up a dial indicator and timing marker (pointer)

Will a automotive timing light work.....if hooked up to a battery?

Thanks again for the info!


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

The automotive timing light will will work just fine.


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## Trigger-Time (Feb 28, 2007)

Lake, It is very good reading.

This should be *mandatory reading *for anyone that has a 041.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 28, 2007)

Yep!! when someone asks a question we can say - read this thread, page 37, paragraph 3, or whatever  

Wait... just say "USE SEARCH"!!!:rockn:


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## Stihlkickin (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a question about ignition timing on a retrofitted-electronic 041 Farm Boss. I recently replaced my ignition points and condenser with a Mega-Fire electronic module. It is very posible that the timing is off on my saw, though it runs like a raped ape. I read the files posted by Lakeside, and I can tell you now, I have absolutely no access to the timing unit the manual refers to. However, I have a very good automotive timing light. Can I use that to check the timing, and if so, how many degrees advanced should the timing be?


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## belgian (Feb 7, 2008)

Well, I need some help with an electronic 041av...

actually I have two saws, one in good condition an no spark, and another one in bad condition with spark. The ignition is clearly electronic and identical on both saws, so I say switch them.

I replace the ignition entirely including flywheel and NO spark ....wtf...
what can be the cause ? I noticed the stator plate had a matching mark, so that's what I ligned it up to.

Lake, this one is driving me nuts..


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## belgian (Feb 11, 2008)

no takers ????:help:


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## PES+ (Feb 11, 2008)

*That style ignition not used here*

Not that I have ever been aware of.

Belgian...try running a jumper wire from the stator plate screw to the case of the secondary coil.

You most likely have a bad or missing ground connection. (The AV requires a fairly heavy ground braid to electrically connect the isolated metal parts)

I assume you already tried removing the kill switch from the circuit.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 11, 2008)

Never seen that style either.. maybe not factory?


You said you changed the entire system? From what?


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## belgian (Feb 12, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Never seen that style either.. maybe not factory?
> 
> 
> You said you changed the entire system? From what?




Andy, this seems to be one of the earliest 041AV ignitions stihl used on those machines. it's original. the replacement was taken out of an identical 041 parts saw that I was able to find, and that saw sparked. Andy, I can give you serial numbers if interesting...


here's a pic of the thyristor ? mounted on the saw...








> I assume you already tried removing the kill switch from the circuit.



Yes, I did. checked the kill switch also. I was worried about the ground issue raised by PES, but I measured everything with a Ohm meter and it seems OK.


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## PES+ (Feb 12, 2008)

I see that the module is indeed attached to the same ground as the stator plate now.

You are certain that there are no other pieces on the sparking saw that are missing from the saw you are attempting to fix?

Only a guess as I can find no mention of an ignition like that on a Stihl here but other saws have used similar types of ignitions and sometimes have a separate trigger coil to time the ignition. 

Have you tried returning all the parts to the other saw and confirmed that it still sparks?


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## belgian (Feb 12, 2008)

PES+ said:


> > You are certain that there are no other pieces on the sparking saw that are missing from the saw you are attempting to fix?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 12, 2008)

My best guess is that you have 2 bad ignitions... I beleive I actually have the schematics for that at work - in Bosch book - not Stihl. I'll look on Thursday.


It look suspiciulsy like a points version that been converted... Can you read the writing on the side of the condensor on the stator plate? 

If your version still has the flywheel lobes for points, it might be easier to convert back.


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## belgian (Feb 12, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> My best guess is that you have 2 bad ignitions... I beleive I actually have the schematics for that at work - in Bosch book - not Stihl. I'll look on Thursday.
> 
> 
> It look suspiciulsy like a points version that been converted... Can you read the writing on the side of the condensor on the stator plate?
> ...




Don't think it's converted, as both saws have the identical ignition..... The flywheel is a 4 pole, and has no cam. 

The bosch numbers are (on both saws !)

HV coil : 2 204 211 082
stator plate : 2 207 031 099
condenser : 2 207 330 007
module : 0 227 300 001
flywheel : 0 204 099 001

considering all what you guys have mentioned, converting might be the only way to go, if only I had another complete ignition & flywheel...


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 12, 2008)

Is the condensor actually wired into the circuit?


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## belgian (Feb 13, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Is the condensor actually wired into the circuit?



Yes, to the terminal marked by the arrow. you can see the wire in the pic also... still connected. Lake, the wiring scheme fits the one actually mentioned in your repair manual which you posted. The only visual difference is that the thyristor module is not located on the stator plate but on the frame.


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 13, 2008)

Hmmm... Check the big round condensor (bottom left). If it's shorted or open (no charge capacity) then you might be able to repair the module. Also, meter the resistance on the two coils.


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## belgian (Feb 14, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Hmmm... Check the big round condensor (bottom left). If it's shorted or open (no charge capacity) then you might be able to repair the module. Also, meter the resistance on the two coils.



Lake, I had to entertain a customer last night, but I will come back on this tomorrow...stay tuned..umpkin2: 

thanks


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## Lakeside53 (Feb 14, 2008)

I have found the correct service info... but.. can't post it today - got to go out tonight, and out I need to scan it.


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## belgian (Feb 15, 2008)

belgian said:


> Lake, I had to entertain a customer last night, but I will come back on this tomorrow...stay tuned..umpkin2:
> 
> thanks




I have a digital multimeter and had some difficulties finding good readings  :

condensor : both 0,9 µF
HV Coil : 2,75 and 2,9 kOhm
LV Coil : 0,8 Ohm (???)
Charging coil (if that's what it is) : there I could not get a stable reading on both ignitions, don't know why though...


Looking forward to your findings..


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## belgian (Mar 3, 2008)

PES+ said:


> Not that I have ever been aware of.
> 
> Belgian...try running a jumper wire from the stator plate screw to the case of the secondary coil.
> 
> ...



Ok, found some energy this weekend to work again on those :censored: 041's...

Archie, I think you had a good idea about the groud issue.... I switched the "faulty" ignition into the parts saw, and it .....FIRED. So after all, I may have 2 ignitions that are working in one saw and both don't work in the other saw.....

Obviously, there's a ground issue with this one saw. I cleaned all the metal surfaces thoroughly but without result. Have anyone experienced this before ?

I will install the jumper wire as PES suggested, but any more tips are welcome.
thanks
roland


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 3, 2008)

Look carefully at your flywheels - you may have cracked magnets. Did both work?

I'll have the service info posted in the next few days... my scanner is TU.:censored:


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 11, 2008)

*Stihl Bosch - initial version...*

Here's the scanned and zipped pages from the Bosch service manual for the Stihl 41 ignition as initially released. I've not seen one of these in the USA...

Mixed formats in the .zip files.. Contrary to the "max file size" of 3.9M for a ZIP fiile.., you can't upload one larger then 2Meg...


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## belgian (Mar 15, 2008)

that's indeed the type of ignition I have been talking about !!!! Thanks a lot Andy !


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## Lakeside53 (Mar 15, 2008)

Many of the parts are common to a lot of Bosch ignitions used in motorcycles of the same era. They will likely have spares, and you now have the part numbers!


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## Hege (Apr 1, 2008)

I have same problems with my AV electronic. I think the thyristor module is broken. BOSCH 0 227 300 001. What kind of thyristor is in it?


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## Hege (Apr 2, 2008)

It is 2N1777. Must get a new one.


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 3, 2008)

Did the module come apart easily? Can you post a picture?


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## blsnelling (Apr 6, 2008)

Some very good info here. Thanks for scanning and posting Andy. I've got it all downloaded. Time to start reading it now.


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## Hege (Apr 8, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Did the module come apart easily? Can you post a picture?



No! It was very difficult and slow to get parts out of there. There was one diode and one capacitor too for "power off" button.
When i get new parts, i can send pics and partlist with circuit.


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## Lakeside53 (Apr 8, 2008)

That would be great!


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## Hege (Apr 8, 2008)

Can take a couple of weeks. Many things to do...


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## belgian (Jun 5, 2008)

@ Lakeside

Hey Andy, I got hold of a parts saw and was able to replace the electronic ignition with a points version (including flywheel), new HV lead and ...guess what ...she fired right up  Thanks again for all your help


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## Lakeside53 (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhhh.... yes.. reverse 'upgrades" work great with failed early ignitions in the 056 and 041!


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## 046 (Oct 5, 2011)

having problems with a Stihl 041 with low hours. excellent compression, starts right up, but when it warms up, starts backfiring. sounds like a small popping noise. then doesn't want to run. when the saw is cold, it starts to act normal until it warms up, then starts to backfire. 

could the ignition module be going out?


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## bobt (Oct 6, 2011)

046 said:


> having problems with a Stihl 041 with low hours. excellent compression, starts right up, but when it warms up, starts backfiring. sounds like a small popping noise. then doesn't want to run. when the saw is cold, it starts to act normal until it warms up, then starts to backfire.
> 
> could the ignition module be going out?


 
Yes, you are correct. Good luck with it. 

You may find a new/used module on Ebay. I don't think it will look exactly like the one Roland had earlier in this thread though. In any case, they are NLA from Stihl.

Bob


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## picklenjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Newbe here with a question on timing an 041AV with electronic ignition. I'm going to make a pointer that mounts on the bar mounting studs simular to the one in the attached pic Lakeside53 has back in post 21. My question is, is the point of the pointer exactly on a line running straight through the centers of the 2 bar mounting studs? In other words when I make my mark on the clutch will it be perfectly in line with the 2 bar mounting studs. Thanks !


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## cajunhillbilly (Feb 11, 2012)

First post...Welcome!

I think the answer to your question as understand it is YES. I'm no expert, someone else may help much more. The question and "clutch" alignment is throwing me off. I like the points version on these old saws so I don't have a whole lot of experience with the electronic. You should begin by reading this thread from beginning to end and the search box to the right. It has all the info you need to get it set right. Also, Download the PDF's provided by the members in this thread. I hope you get it running and post often.:msp_smile:


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## picklenjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Hey thanks cajun! What I was saying in reference to the clutch is acording to the instructions on setting the timimg in the zip file page 44 in post 21, with the piston set at 2.5mm btdc and the alighment tool in place you make a mark on the clutch for shooting your timing light at. I don't have that tool so I plan to make my own. So if you could imagine a line running across through the centers of the bar mounting studs all the way to the clutch is that the exact point on the clutch where you would make your timing mark? It appears it would be by looking at the tool but wanted to be sure that the tool pointer is made exactly aligned with this imaginary line running through the bar mount stud centers.The photos aren't looking exactly straight at it so it's hard to tell for sure. If so I should easily be able to make an alignment tool as in the pic.

On another note I don't understand why they even made this necessary with the electronic ignition. Instead of having slots in the ignition plate why wouldn't they have just made holes to where it would be mounted solid in the correct spot and not adjustable? I've worked on many 2 stroke dirt bike and that's the way they are. No need to set timing. I can see needing an adjustable plate to set the timing with a point type ignition but not with the electronic ignition.


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## old 040 (Feb 11, 2012)

picklenjim said:


> Hey thanks cajun! What I was saying in reference to the clutch is acording to the instructions on setting the timimg in the zip file page 44 in post 21, with the piston set at 2.5mm btdc and the alighment tool in place you make a mark on the clutch for shooting your timing light at. I don't have that tool so I plan to make my own. So if you could imagine a line running across through the centers of the bar mounting studs all the way to the clutch is that the exact point on the clutch where you would make your timing mark? It appears it would be by looking at the tool but wanted to be sure that the tool pointer is made exactly aligned with this imaginary line running through the bar mount stud centers.The photos aren't looking exactly straight at it so it's hard to tell for sure. If so I should easily be able to make an alignment tool as in the pic.
> 
> On another note I don't understand why they even made this necessary with the electronic ignition. Instead of having slots in the ignition plate why wouldn't they have just made holes to where it would be mounted solid in the correct spot and not adjustable? I've worked on many 2 stroke dirt bike and that's the way they are. No need to set timing. I can see needing an adjustable plate to set the timing with a point type ignition but not with the electronic ignition.


so far, every 041 i've worked on have a timing mark on the flywheel and on the crankcase, the fan must be removed to see the mark on the flywheel, i chuck a socket setup in my drill to spin the crank to check the timing


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## picklenjim (Feb 11, 2012)

Lakeside53 said:


> Here's the section on the Electronic versions.. Sorry about the size but I tried to keep the quality up for decent print. I'll play more with it...
> 
> The points version pages will follow...



I was going by the method shown on pages 44 & 45 of the zip file in post 21. That's the ignition I have. I have 2 of these and neither have marks on the case but they do on the flywheel. I don't see any reason why I can't make the mark on the case myself though. I saw in one place where they showed removing the gas tank/flywheel cover with the engine running and shooting the light. I just thought the clutch method looked easier. I like the idea of spinning it with a drill on the bench but the question I have about that is all the instructions say to rev the engine to 6000rpm when checking. With a drill you will be seeing less than 2000. I really don't understand why they say to rev up beings as far as I know there is no type of advancing of the timing going on, unless it's built into the electronic ignition units. I'm sure there's not on the points type though they also say to rev to 6000rpm. I'll probably try the drill method. Thanks.


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## old 040 (Feb 12, 2012)

picklenjim said:


> I was going by the method shown on pages 44 & 45 of the zip file in post 21. That's the ignition I have. I have 2 of these and neither have marks on the case but they do on the flywheel. I don't see any reason why I can't make the mark on the case myself though. I saw in one place where they showed removing the gas tank/flywheel cover with the engine running and shooting the light. I just thought the clutch method looked easier. I like the idea of spinning it with a drill on the bench but the question I have about that is all the instructions say to rev the engine to 6000rpm when checking. With a drill you will be seeing less than 2000. I really don't understand why they say to rev up beings as far as I know there is no type of advancing of the timing going on, unless it's built into the electronic ignition units. I'm sure there's not on the points type though they also say to rev to 6000rpm. I'll probably try the drill method. Thanks.



just thought i'd add that once you've got the lines on the flywheel and crankcase lined up, you can mark youre clutch and case on the clutch side, the electronic version may have an advance built in, but i'm not shure, you'll be able to tell when running it and checking on the clutch side, i try to stick with points versions of these saws only to avoid the issues with the elctronic systems


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## 046 (Feb 13, 2012)

another 041 with no fire ... arrrgghhhh

have not removed flywheel yet... sure hope I find points


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## picklenjim (Feb 13, 2012)

If anyone needs parts for their 041 check out ebay. Just go to ebay and search "stihl 041". About any part you need there.


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## picklenjim (Feb 13, 2012)

046 said:


> another 041 with no fire ... arrrgghhhh
> 
> have not removed flywheel yet... sure hope I find points



A problem I seem to see regularly is the kill swith wire. The insulation hardens and then breaks off in large pieces. That would be the first thing to check out. You can cut the plug off the switch end leaving about an inch of wire on the plug and slip heat shrink over the rest of the wire. Then shrink it down and slip another piece about 2 inches long over that. Now twist the wires back together and slip that piece over the twist and to the plug and shrink it down. Another way that works good is to coat it all with liquid electric tape.


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## oldmanriver (Feb 13, 2012)

*kill switch wire*



picklenjim said:


> A problem I seem to see regularly is the kill swith wire. The insulation hardens and then breaks off in large pieces. That would be the first thing to check out. You can cut the plug off the switch end leaving about an inch of wire on the plug and slip heat shrink over the rest of the wire. Then shrink it down and slip another piece about 2 inches long over that. Now twist the wires back together and slip that piece over the twist and to the plug and shrink it down. Another way that works good is to coat it all with liquid electric tape.



Yep, your right on the kill switch wire. These are old saws and the insulation on most of these is "giving up the ghost". Just had to fix the kill switch wire on one of mine a few days ago. Runs like a scalded a:censored: dog now!!:chainsawguy:


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## sternman (Aug 15, 2013)

*041 BOSH Ignition Issue*

I have this type of module in my pic, It is a bosh and has a 4 mag flywheel. It is dead and was wondering if there is any way to wire the nova 2 trigger on this? Or do i need to mod it out with points system parts to do that? Any help would be thankful on getting this stator to spark again.

Thanks

View attachment 309558


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## nmurph (Aug 15, 2013)

Rip tt


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