# Ropes driving me knots!



## Mad Professor (May 10, 2020)

Need some advice on knots to use on ropes used to help guide/direct whole trees down.

Trees are not bad leaners or huge, just are close to some stuff I don't want to crush. I've been felling trees a long time and am pretty good with direction and use of wedges, just only used ropes a few times and I'm not a climber.

Some of the trees have some trunk rot so hinges might not be sound or fail. I'll wrap a chain around the trunk above the cut, in case the trunk starts to split to keep things together.

Plan is to use 5/8 rope high as possible on trees in question, keep some light tension on during back cut, then pull as the backcut is near completed. Will be using a comealong , or ratcheting chainfall to pull.

1) To connect to tree. Running bowline.

2) If I have to join two ropes for tall trees. Zepplin or Flemmish bends.

3) To connect to a large clevis or such on the pulling end. Double Bowline, Anchor bend, or Halyard hitch (hard to untie).

Are these good choices?

net knots


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## arathol (May 10, 2020)

Running bowline for getting the rope attached up high, yup.
I think the zepplin bend would be better if you are going to be pulling on the rope. Its a lot easier to untie afterwards....its also a lot easier to use a longer rope too.....
For attaching the rope to a hook or whatever you are using to pull with use a bowline on a bight. Tie it right and it works every time, and it won't jam up when you untie it. 
If you need a quick pulling point on the rope that is easily removable, a clove hitch is real simple to do. It takes 2 seconds to form, and it comes loose off a hook or clevis in a second when you want it too. It binds tight when you pull on it, and comes apart quickly when you don't.
I've pulled hundreds of trees over and dragged them around with a front end loader using these simple knots. Learn how to tie them and you'll be all set. Just make sure you are using good quality rope. Lots of cheap nylon ropes won't hold a knot worth a damn.


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## old CB (May 10, 2020)

Sounds like you've got things pretty well figured out. What's really worthwhile is to select knots that don't lock up tight when heavily loaded.

I pull a lot of trees, and like you my usual setup is to use a come-along anchored to a tree. Sometimes I anchor to a vehicle but I much prefer a tree. For hitching the rope to the come-along hook (or to the trailer ball, when pulling trees with pickup) I use the cow hitch. Very quick to set or undo.


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## Philbert (May 10, 2020)

Lots of good stuff in these books:

_The Tree Climber's Companion_ by Jeff Jepson








Tree Climber's Companion


Written by Jeff Jepson, the 2nd edition of the compact field reference and training guide contains even more valuable information. In addition to covering topics such as knots and hitches, cl




www.treestuff.com





_The Art and Science of Practical Rigging_ 








The Art and Science of Practical Rigging


The Art and Science of Practical Rigging is designed as a supplement to the ISA rigging video series. This 172-page book is extensively illustrated and includes a glossary of terms. Included




www.treestuff.com





And

Animated Knots by Grog (website)








Home


Animated Knots is the world's leading site for learning how to tie knots of any kind. From Boating Knots, Fishing Knots and Climbing Knots to how to tie a Tie, or even Surgical Knots — we’ve got it covered.




www.animatedknots.com





Philbert


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Need some advice on knots to use on ropes used to help guide/direct whole trees down.
> 
> Trees are not bad leaners or huge, just are close to some stuff I don't want to crush. I've been felling trees a long time and am pretty good with direction and use of wedges, just only used ropes a few times and I'm not a climber.
> 
> ...


The Running Bowline is hard to beat.


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## Mad Professor (May 10, 2020)

old CB said:


> Sounds like you've got things pretty well figured out. What's really worthwhile is to select knots that don't lock up tight when heavily loaded.
> 
> I pull a lot of trees, and like you my usual setup is to use a come-along anchored to a tree. Sometimes I anchor to a vehicle but I much prefer a tree. For hitching the rope to the come-along hook (or to the trailer ball, when pulling trees with pickup) I use the cow hitch. Very quick to set or undo.



I've got a real big clevis for my tractor 3pt hitch, I'll use to connect the rope to the pull end. Much bigger dia/less sharp than a chain hook so will be easier on the rope. I'll have a look at cow hitch. I also noticed since posting, the cats paw:





Edit: not pulling with tractor, just using the big clevis, for the rope to comealong.


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

This is great


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## AGoodSteward (May 10, 2020)

Knots


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




www.youtube.com


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

AGoodSteward said:


> Knots
> 
> 
> Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
> ...


You use it ? How well will it hold heavy loads?


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## full chizel (May 10, 2020)

I’ve never heard of a bowline failing


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

full chizel said:


> I’ve never heard of a bowline failing


I seen a Clove Hitch pull out.


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## Mad Professor (May 10, 2020)

lone wolf said:


> This is great




Looks good and stronger? Strong is good!

What I've gleaned, so far , that's used for a middle loop, good for climbers. Two loops can be different sizes.

I guess good on an end too, if strength is better?

FYI all I do fishing too, some fly ,so I get knots ones I've learned why and how.

Thanks!!!!!


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Looks good and stronger? Strong is good!
> 
> What I've gleaned, so far , that's used for a middle loop, good for climbers. Two loops can be different sizes.
> 
> I guess good on an end too, if strength is better?


I always use it when pulling heavy.


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## Mad Professor (May 10, 2020)

lone wolf said:


> I always use it when pulling heavy.


Just make tag end short so it's not a real loop in middle?


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## lone wolf (May 10, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Just make tag end short so it's not a real loop in middle?


Just double 3 foot of rope and tie a Bowline and put all 3 loops in the Clevis.


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## Mad Professor (May 10, 2020)

Thanks all!

Next ? will line getting pull line up in tree/throw lines. I Have 28' ladder. I'm not a good monkey, was when a boy.


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## The Satch (May 10, 2020)

Get yourself a bag and a throw line, much easier with a little practice than hauling a ladder around, and you will be able to set your line much higher. I have the Wesspur kit, works great. 



Complete Throw line Kits


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## holeycow (May 10, 2020)

Fishing rod with a weight.


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## Mad Professor (May 11, 2020)

holeycow said:


> Fishing rod with a weight.





The Satch said:


> Get yourself a bag and a throw line, much easier with a little practice than hauling a ladder around, and you will be able to set your line much higher. I have the Wesspur kit, works great.
> 
> 
> 
> Complete Throw line Kits



Thanks for the ideas!

After looking at the link @The Satch posted, and @holycow s suggestion, I think I could make something up pretty easy.

A wrist rocket sling shot mounted on the butt section of an old fishing pole. Spool up an old spinning reel with some 30-50 lb line and make up a weight to connect the line to. The guide on the fishing pole would make the line spool off smooth.

A golf ball for a weight might work good. Screw in an eye screw to connect the fishing line to. Edit: or heavy ocean lead sinker.

I know I'd be more accurate with my slingshot, than trying to cast up into a tree with a fishing pole (I've caught my share of trees fishing already ). I was pretty good with it as a kid, hitting varmints and small game.

Another idea, could mount the business portion of the sling shot and a fishing reel, on a junk rifle stock.........

I've got plenty of heavy used fishing line from my ice fishing tipups and used golf balls are cheap. If I loose a setup in a tree the cost would be small.

I'll have to think on best design. Any more suggestions would be appreciated.


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## lone wolf (May 11, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Thanks all!
> 
> Next ? will line getting pull line up in tree/throw lines. I Have 28' ladder. I'm not a good monkey, was when a boy.


Get a saddle and climbing rope and tie in.


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## Mad Professor (May 11, 2020)

Learning curve on that. Plus equipment costs. I'm trying to get with rope, chains, comealong/ratcheting chainfall puller, I already have.

Trees I'm working with don't need to be taken down in sections. Although, I've used climbing spurs when I was younger. My monkey days are past me I think.


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## lone wolf (May 11, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Learning curve on that. Plus equipment costs. I'm trying to get with rope, chains, comealong/ratcheting chainfall puller, I already have.
> 
> Trees I'm working with don't need to be taken down in sections. Although, I've used climbing spurs when I was younger. My monkey days are past me I think.


If you are up on a ladder be tied in with a rope a safety harness. Thank me latter.


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## NeSurfcaster (May 16, 2020)

Ladders are dangerous, tie yourself in and tie the ladder to the tree. But throwline is your best bet, w/out much practice 40-50' is totally possible your first day. Couple wedges are nice too just in case your rigging slips, at least the wedges will catch your progress if the rigging slips. Butterfly is ok for midline attachment but it has given me a hard time untying after heavy loads. Recently I've been using a tenex prussic cord for midline attachment for medium size pulls(5,000lbs or less). 
You could always do the hillbilly mid line attachment way, #1 make a bight in pulling line #2 tie a overhand knot but keep the knot loose, #3 shove about 20 little sticks inside the overhand knot,#4 pull overhand knot tight w/ sticks inside it, #5 Attach the bight to hitch ball or whatever beaner/shackle... Pull tree over and then bust up/pull the sticks out inside the overhand knot so you can untie it. Works like a charm for some tree guys I've worked for in the past that don't know knots...


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## Wow (May 18, 2020)

I 


The Satch said:


> Get yourself a bag and a throw line, much easier with a little practice than hauling a ladder around, and you will be able to set your line much higher. I have the Wesspur kit, works great.
> 
> 
> 
> Complete Throw line Kits


I use a piece of 3/4 PVC pipe about 4 inches long and cut bevels (think like the roof of a house) at the front end so it can slide over a branch. Then drill small holes near top points of the bevels. Next make a wire bail to attach 15 pound fishing line. Bends in the end of wire bail snaps into holes in PVC. 
To add some weight I fill pipe with foam. 

I'm very good with a Rod and Reel. Toss that over a limb then pull a 1/4 nylon line over limb. Attach that to my half inch climbing rope and pull it over limb. 
Next tie the climbing rope to the 3/4 Bull Rope. If not done right this WILL CATCH on something SO I wrap the end of the Bull rope with Black Tape in an effort to make a point where the two ropes are joined. A big ole knot WILL JAM. I use a clove hitch about 2 feet down from the joint between two ropes then loop up to the joint and tie and wrap. In sailboats we call it a chain knot. Start off with a clove hitch then half a clove spaced apart. Kinda a loop long line another loop a clove at top. At the very top half a clove is smaller then tape holds it. If it catches back it down. Ive actually made a sort of funnel to get the big rope over a limb.

Then a Running Bolen but I add another pull rope (my climbing rope right on the bull rope so ny helper can use that to take up slack. When the tree starts to fall the Bull rope can slacken. The guide rope keeps tree on path. Last. Before I pull the Bull rope loop up I attatch the 1/4 nylon line so IF I decide to not cut I can pull the loop all way down and untie my 300 dollar rope and cut later. Thats only happened once and I was glad I didn't have to climb to recover my rope.


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## Wow (May 18, 2020)

*oh yes. Forgot. I have several Loops which can form a Prusik on the Bull Rope. Then attaching the 6,000 pound guide line on Bull Rope using the rope loop. I use loops and Prusik knots a lot.*


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## Philbert (May 18, 2020)

Wow said:


> I use a piece of 3/4 PVC pipe about 4 inches long and cut bevels (think like the roof of a house) at the front end so it can slide over a branch. Then drill small holes near top points of the bevels. Next make a wire bail to attach 15 pound fishing line. Bends in the end of wire bail snaps into holes in PVC.
> To add some weight I fill pipe with foam.





Wow said:


> *oh yes. Forgot. I have several Loops which can form a Prusik on the Bull Rope. Then attaching the 6,000 pound guide line on Bull Rope using the rope loop. I use loops and Prusik knots a lot.*


Pics would be helpful to visualize understand.

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Wow (May 19, 2020)

Ok, Finally got time for a photo.
The shape of wire bale allows it to slide over a limb. Then if the pipe flips over the cut angle helps that side pull over a limb.
Inside the PVC is a bit of foam glued in for weight. It must be light enough to not break the line upon toss and heavy enough to be tossed. I cast with a 6 foot Rod and Zebco 33 reel. 15 pounds of test line. Tuning this takes a few tosses. The wire bale needs to be strong but I like it to pull out if the plug catches so the pvc falls to the ground. Reattach and toss again. After all the bugs are worked out they work well. A couple extra are fast to make. Also: I've made a few solid wooden tossing plugs shaped the same way. Once the plug is over I pop the line to get it to the ground. It's a learn as you go system but, for me, it's much easier than tossing a bag.
Good luck.


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## BC WetCoast (May 27, 2020)

Throwbags have loose lead shot in them so they don't bounce for when they hit a branch (and they always do). I don't think golf balls have enough weight to bring the line down if the tree has a lot of branches in it. 

I've become a bigger fan of using a 3:1 or 5:1 (truckers hitch/poor man's come along) to pull a tree vs a mechanical device. It's just one less thing that can screw up at the wrong time.

To attach your pull line to a clevis a loop formed by Figure 8 on a bight works well for me. If I think it's going to load up, I put a stick in the knot, to get slack when it's unloaded.

When using a Tirfor, I've attached it to the pull line using a prussik, which allows for more adjustment.
If you have to pull against a huge lean, just put 2 pull ropes in it.


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## Wow (May 27, 2020)

Even three ropes at times. The main thing is to move plan your actions and proceed cautiously. Many times I've cut and lowered heavy branches (in managable pieces) from the leaning side to help unload the direction of fall. I was 68 when a large limb almost took me to the ground. I have a white scar in the shape of a Cross on the back of my left hand from a deep scratch after It was deflected. At 73, as badly as I yearn to climb I don't anymore. I'm pretty strong and sometimes tell myself I could but there comes a time when a man has to realize he's become limited. My 23 year old Grandson is the man in the family now. He's respectful and will take advice but if I get to where I can't work at all I may as well be dead. Im still able to operate my almost 20 pound saw (our scales) pretty good and enjoy working but tree work has a way of becoming a part of a mans identity and I can't yet stop completely. Be Blessed.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 5, 2020)

For me:
For throw weight, you want more bean bag of hit, deform, slide into place, than hard device bound away. We actually started with rubber 'ball' on ring, bean bag ball as a refinement.
Throw line itself should be slick enough to slide not hang.
Favour slipped anchor for tying to ball ring, then 2 Cloves for grabbing real rope to pull up.
If get throw line on wrong close by limb, sometimes can pull ball up to just under limb and snap down hard and get ball to jump over to facing limb, even if higher. Even 'walk the dog' up 'steps' to target on good day.
Good deal on ball and throw line can be one of cheapest, time saving tools in tree work.
.
Double Bowline increases security, much more than strength.
Same bend/deformation to Standing Part, gives same geometry, thus same inefficiency of support architecture..
Standing Part is linear input feed, into controlling arcs of knot.
>> Arcs can capitilize on both sine/cosine for their controlling frictions duties.
>> Linear rope parts use most intense, focused cosine for resisting load and less direct, diffused sine only for friction and grip to host.
>> SAME bend in Standing Part, same intense cosine = SAME structural efficiency maintained/'strength'.
Small diameter host mount , 2 turns/3 x180 arcs on host mount can spread out rope wear and be some stronger that way.
>> Cats Paw is very clean linear Standing Part, especially both legs pulled as in sling usage.
>> so 'stronger' , and gives more turns to share load on small host mounts.
>> 1 leg pull give extra turn perhaps cleaner and stoppering.
In pro ropes, pro knots, wide SWL ratios, 'strength' is less important than rest of proper application.
MANY stiff or stretchy ropes don't work well w/Bowline. It is great generally in ropes that lend to it/ seat to own diameter well, and not too stretchy.
.
To put in tree top DBY Double Bowline w/Yosemite tie off running, high to strong rigid point of even pull to facing, preferably over tree's CoG/Center of Gravity, prefer pulling directly to fall more than against any sideLean.
>> if can, prefer lace over crotch, trace down back and tie off with Clove above face, knot on back very easy to find after fall.
Unwrap turns and pull out w/truck before cutting/boning landed fish.
>> Clove is continuous turns and wants to walk tighter or out, always give backup/sieze.
(Counter torque of Backhand Turn / off host crossing in Cow doesn't walk tighter or off as much, but still positively size w/backup against initial creep as standard mechanical practice)


For sideLean prefer Tapered Hinge to give ballast against sideLean as also allow fold to target.
Falling as sideLean when can, to practice, and less direct ground hit.
Fat side of Tapered to 'off side'(Dent) against sideLean, but preserve some hinge presence closest to lean as anti-swivel from over correction against sideLean.
>> even if center punch leaving only extremes of hinge length.
Then pull towards target to force stronger hinge response/ generally not against sideLean.
.
Like wedge help, but mostly safety anti-sitback, still serve to face.
Rope pull and especially wedge push relieve as tree comes forward.
But , strength forced into hinge maintains longer until tearoff type model.
So i look at added push/pull TO FACE as exercising birthed hinge stronger/thicker, then extra load relieved.
>> added push/pull direction part against lean generally gives temp side load relief , not imbued into hinge by contrast.
.
Trucker's Hitch /zRig converts 1 pull to 3 to allow funnelling more distance into shorter pull/more power in exchange
>> BUT rope frictions of arcs can drop efficiency to bring from 3x power to 1.65x some tests show.


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## pdqdl (Feb 27, 2022)

Mad Professor said:


> Need some advice on knots to use on ropes used to help guide/direct whole trees down.
> 
> Trees are not bad leaners or huge, just are close to some stuff I don't want to crush. I've been felling trees a long time and am pretty good with direction and use of wedges, just only used ropes a few times and I'm not a climber.
> 
> ...



Of course this is a rather old thread, but I'll jump in anyway. Some things ought to be said.

I have a much better choice for setting your high rope. Don't use a running bowline.
While that will hold quite well, it has several disadvantages.

In order to use a running bowline properly, you will need to isolate a branch aloft so that the bowline will not just be choking multiple branches together. This can be a huge problem, often consuming time, and there aren't too many good ways to recover the rope.
If for some reason, you need to change your plan, a running bowline is kinda irreversable unless you leave a tail on the knot long enough to pull it back down.
if you are going to use that much rope anyway, you should just save time and trouble. Throw the rope over your best branch, and then secure it to the trunk (well above your planned felling cut) with a timber hitch. When applying the pull on the tree, if your branch should happen to break, the rope will just go down the tree to the next branch down, which _*might*_ enable you to save an otherwise bad position.
 A rope is a bit stronger when running over a branch rather than being choked down upon it.
DRAWBACK: depending upon the angle of your pull, you might be significantly increasing the force upon the crown (or branch) of the tree using this method. In a frictionless world, the rope will be applying more force to the tree, since the top will have become a "pulley", with force magnification being put on it by the rope. The further away from having a vertical pull line you are, the less power increase you will be putting on the tree. Obviously, quite a bit of friction is involved with ropes running over fixed branches, so the power magnification isn't something I usually worry about too much while using this technique.
While your other knots are all good choices, it's easy to overdo the knot selection by favoring a complex knot over one that is actually stronger and equally reliable.

For joining two ropes, the sheet bend is really reliable, and probably the strongest available. Lots of folks fear using it, on account of how simple it is to tie. It's architecture is identical to the bowline, however.

I've never read that a double bowline is any more secure or stronger than the single,


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