# Old Growth Cedar Windthrow. What's a fair price for a landowner?



## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

I have a few acres that has never been logged and is covered with old-growth cedar. The windthrows are laying on top of ground, many of them on top of each other. I have around 15 total (that are huge). 6 feet up the trees are about 8 feet in diameter and go from there. There is also a lot of smaller but still old growth stuff covered up on the ground that I believe is suitable. I won't be harvesting any standing timber except for the possibility of a few snags. Anyways, 

I was quoted $250 a cord by the time it made it to the mill by two operators. This seems low to me @ a quote of $850 a cord at the mill. (Mill is 45 miles away)

Would I benefit by renting my own equipment (and having a professional excavator operator, a friend operate it) and hiring a logging truck to take it to the mill or is something that should only be trusted to a professional timber harvester?


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2012)

Have you tried finding a shake/shingle mill? They are usually scrambling to find wood. Renting an excavator is expensive, $1200. for a week rental plus delivery plus fuel (and they use allot of fuel) and that is for a small one, if the wood is really 6' dia your going to need a much larger machine, or you could rent a bull dozer and skid them out, they are a little cheaper to rent but not much.

Before you start, call a few mills and find the best price, what lengths they want, can they handle wood that large. Also how rotten is the wood? If its been down for awhile then it could be junk and worthless, might not hurt to have the mills buyer come out and have a looksy.

One more thing... The state gets all sorts of antsy with ceder (they think its worth a bunch of money) consider getting a permit, keeps dnr out of your hair. If they catch you without a permit they can charge you triple stumpage which is about five times what you'l get from the mill...

Ok one more thing... Yer gonna need a BIG saw to make this an easy job, 6' is allot of wood, a 36" bar or better will be necessary


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2012)

OK one more thing... If the loggers are paying buy the "cord" it had better be going to a shake/shingle mill, everyone else around here pays by the 1000 bf, I'm done now


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## madhatte (Oct 25, 2012)

According to this current WA Dept Of Revenue log price table, $250/cord at 600 bf/cord, they're offering you about 60% of the going rate. 

Here's my math: 1/(($250/cord)*(cord/600bf)*((mbf/$_approx_700)/(1000bf/mbf))=59.6%


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## Joe46 (Oct 25, 2012)

I'm kinda thinking along the lines of northmanlogging. Finding good down OGCedar is pretty rare any more. But I've been out of the game for a long time now.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Have you tried finding a shake/shingle mill? They are usually scrambling to find wood. Renting an excavator is expensive, $1200. for a week rental plus delivery plus fuel (and they use allot of fuel) and that is for a small one, if the wood is really 6' dia your going to need a much larger machine, or you could rent a bull dozer and skid them out, they are a little cheaper to rent but not much.
> 
> Before you start, call a few mills and find the best price, what lengths they want, can they handle wood that large. Also how rotten is the wood? If its been down for awhile then it could be junk and worthless, might not hurt to have the mills buyer come out and have a looksy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me. 

It's all business and I have a hard time trusting people especially during these hard economic times. I know they are low bidding me which I completely respect and understand. 

I talked to 3 mills. One wanted to sell me their mill, the other got very excited but then backed out, the other wants the wood real bad but again, they gave what I feel was a lowball offer. 

I guess the market isn't too hot right now but I know it will come back. The main thing I'm trying to figure out are the costs to harvest and transport. $500-$600 a cord for processing costs seems high to me. I would have expected maybe $250 a cord but I guess I get what I can get.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> OK one more thing... If the loggers are paying buy the "cord" it had better be going to a shake/shingle mill, everyone else around here pays by the 1000 bf, I'm done now



Yes, it's going to a shake mill (those seem to be the only mills around this area) but I know some will be diverted and cut up for nice clear finish wood. 


I'm think I need a CAT 330C/D size machine in order to handle the wood. This machine rents at about $2600 a week with transport costs around $800.00 to get it to and from the working area. It would be nice to be able to get something smaller but if it can't pick up the trees then pleh. 

I was going to buy an 066 with like a 60" bar (I think I can get one for around a $800 bucks) and then sell it when I'm done. 

I already have the needed Sheriffs and DNR permit. 

The problem now is the rains have started. This may have to wait until next spring. Thanks for the replies.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

madhatte said:


> According to this current WA Dept Of Revenue log price table, $250/cord at 600 bf/cord, they're offering you about 60% of the going rate.
> 
> Here's my math: 1/(($250/cord)*(cord/600bf)*((mbf/$_approx_700)/(1000bf/mbf))=59.6%



Excellent! I really don't want to part with the wood for less than $450 a cord and it looks like that's about right. Thanks for the conversion there. :msp_thumbup:

a few of the trees are up the air because they are laying across other trees. The picture is crappy but the tree below is a pic of one of those trees. This tree is about 8 feet the base.

View attachment 259183


Here is a live specimen. Looks like it gobbled up a Doug Fir around the time the constitution was signed. 

View attachment 259184


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## madhatte (Oct 25, 2012)

Get it cruised by a forester, then plan the sale as a lump-sum contract. Let somebody else do all the work and pay all the transportation and equipment costs. Figure out whether you can do it at a profit or not. If the numbers don't pan out for you, let the wood stay. Don't disturb the land on speculation. Time is money. The land, as well as the trees, will be there later.


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## H 2 H (Oct 25, 2012)

Welcome to As


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## redprospector (Oct 25, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me.
> 
> *It's all business and I have a hard time trusting people especially during these hard economic times.* I know they are low bidding me which I completely respect and understand.
> 
> ...



I'm not in the PNW, but like you said "It's all business". I'm going to tell you something and I hope you don't get mad about it. Please consider it "constructive criticizim.
To be successful in business you have to build some sort of relationship. A relationship without some sort of trust won't work. Period. 
An old fellow that was very close to me, once told me that the person that is most afraid of being screwed is the person who is most likely to screw you. This little saying has proved itself to be true time after time in my experience.
When I'm looking at a job, and the land owner acts as if they are afraid I am going to try to cheat them I will usually walk away. If I don't walk away my bid will be far in my favor trying to cover the problems that are likely to follow.
The guy that offered to sell you the mill may have realy been hurting, or may have been telling you that you were out of line.
The one got very excited, but then backed out. Well, you have to imagine there was something that made them want to back out.
The last guy gave you a lowball offer. May mean he's not very interested. Or it could be that is the going rate, and not low ball at all.

I hope you are right, and the market comes back. The question you have to ask yourself is; Will my cedar still be good when that happens.
Like I said to start with, I hope you don't get mad about this. It's just the way it hit's me when reading this thread.

Andy


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## Slamm (Oct 25, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Thanks for the reply. The wood varies in condition. I took a slice out of one at the property line where it was about 6' in diameter and it was solid all the way through. I can tell the wood has pockets of rot with a lot of real nice stuff mixed in it as well. I want some money for it before it leaves my property and then I want it processed and measured at the mill with me paying some difference back to mill owner or him paying some difference back to me.



I'm going to guess that, that isn't going to happen.

Sam


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

redprospector said:


> I'm not in the PNW, but like you said "It's all business". I'm going to tell you something and I hope you don't get mad about it. Please consider it "constructive criticizim.
> To be successful in business you have to build some sort of relationship. A relationship without some sort of trust won't work. Period.
> An old fellow that was very close to me, once told me that the person that is most afraid of being screwed is the person who is most likely to screw you. This little saying has proved itself to be true time after time in my experience.
> When I'm looking at a job, and the land owner acts as if they are afraid I am going to try to cheat them I will usually walk away. If I don't walk away my bid will be far in my favor trying to cover the problems that are likely to follow.
> ...



Not mad in the least. And thanks for your insight. I'm doing my best not to be the psycho, fickle landowner. 

Here is my issue. I am being offered a lump sum for what I have shown them I have. 

You follow me?

With old growth cedar, there is a lot on top that is visible but there is also a lot that's covered up with deadfall and buried under thick vegetation. 

In other words it's impossible to know exactly what I have until harvest has commenced and the ground gets disturbed and vegetation gets removed. I walked it with a brushcutter in hand last week and found 4 more enormous logs. 

I have been warned by several people that the area I am operating in is known for shady people. This is not my assumption, just what many people have told me. I didn't get that vibe from the two interested buyers I have talked to. 

I think these mills are generally short on wood so the guy that backed out knee jerked at the opportunity to get more wood but realized he had 60 unprocessed cords sitting around his mill, 50 "ready to fly" and many pallets of unsold product. He told me to hit him up next spring. He said he would still buy the wood but said he wasn't willing to pay fair market value for it. The guys that asked me if I wanted their mill must have had at 80 pallets of shingles sitting around and weren't running their saws. 

Anyways. I have been told that I should get money for the wood before it leaves my property. To me this means I should do a lump sum sale but it's hard for me to do that when I am not sure what I have. So then my other option is to let the wood leave the property and let the mill owner process it and see what I have and then pay me based on the number of cords he is able to get but that would mean letting the wood leave my property before recieving payment. 

Just letting you into my thought process here.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

Slamm said:


> I'm going to guess that, that isn't going to happen.
> 
> Sam



I realize that.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Get it cruised by a forester, then plan the sale as a lump-sum contract. Let somebody else do all the work and pay all the transportation and equipment costs. Figure out whether you can do it at a profit or not. If the numbers don't pan out for you, let the wood stay. Don't disturb the land on speculation. Time is money. The land, as well as the trees, will be there later.



There is profit even at the low offer. 

My intent is to make a road and use the property to camp on and I would like to do that soon. My fear is that once I open a driveway that even with a gate, I will opening myself up to the opportunity for timber theft. 

Thanks for your comments.


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## checkthisout (Oct 25, 2012)

H 2 H said:


> Welcome to As



Thank you!


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2012)

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're out on the peninsula... to be honest when you said ya got 6' diameter trees my first thought was no f'n way... anyway most of the logging I do I don't get paid until it goes to the mill and the landowner don't get paid either, just how I do business... wish the mill would pay before maybe then I could afford fuel... its unlikely as Hel that the mills will pay a lump sum for an unknown quantity of wood, and even more unlikely that they are going to pay before it crosses their gate, the mills are cagier then the loggers (and that's say'n somethin).

If the loggers are going to give you 40% then that's a pretty good deal, there is a bunch of work involved in getting wood out of the woods, and it involves some pretty big and expensive machines. When its all over and the smoke has cleared the logger will probably make about as much as you or less (most likely less). If the ground yer on is fairly flat, as in no Sherpas or balay lines to walk the property line, their biggest danger is going to be those windfall pick up sticks logs, Bucking big wood like that is always fun but throw in the up in the air and who knows where its going once its free and its very possible some one is going to the hospital.

It been many years since I have had any kind of involvement with shake blocks but my understanding is they buck into rounds and split on site then stack em on flat bed trucks to take em to the mill, if'n that's still the case then you really want someone else to do the work for you, cutting blocks takes a darn good saw hand, and splitting em is brutal back braking work,

There are mills/brokers that take ceder in the Puget Sound area it just might cost an arm and yer first born to truck them out there,

If you really want to get more money sit on em until the housing market and economy picks back up a little bit, Best of luck to ya though.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2012)

If you are super worried about getting ripped off then plan on spending a week or two on the site and get a load slip with every truck, its entirely to easy to slip a load or two by when the homeowner isn't home, most guys are honest enough to not do that although it still happens, or break down and hire a forester its their job to keep an eye on the logger (among other things)


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## redprospector (Oct 25, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Not mad in the least. And thanks for your insight. I'm doing my best not to be the psycho, fickle landowner.
> 
> Here is my issue. I am being offered a lump sum for what I have shown them I have.
> 
> ...



Like I said before; I'm not in the PNW, so I won't even try to pretend to know what your best option is. Where I am is known for one or two "shady people".  Hopefully you can find someone who has had a good experience with the contractor they used, and work from there. Good luck, and welcome. 

Andy


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## Humptulips (Oct 26, 2012)

*My2 cents*

Absolutely put this off if you can. The market is terrible right now. As an example my friend contracts the hauling of spaults from a number of mills. At one time they were hauling as many as 110 chip trailers/month. He told me they had hauled 2 this month. Most mills are sitting on a lot of inventory and they are not going to be hungry for the wood to pay top dollar.

Interested to know where this is at. I see salal and shot berry bushes in the picture so I would assume right along the coast. That means to me mostly shingle wood. If true the $850/cord is a good price.
As for costs to cut the wood I would think 300/cord would be in the neighborhood but there are variables. Closest road to fly to? Will it have to be improved?

You're right not to build a road in until ready to harvest.
I might be able to give you a reference to someone if I knew where you were at.
You'd probably get more selling on a cutout but you need to be able to trust the mill.


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## checkthisout (Oct 26, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> If you are super worried about getting ripped off then plan on spending a week or two on the site and get a load slip with every truck, its entirely to easy to slip a load or two by when the homeowner isn't home, most guys are honest enough to not do that although it still happens, or break down and hire a forester its their job to keep an eye on the logger (among other things)



Well, I wanted to stay on the site and watch the work anyways. I enjoy hearing those big saws and smelling the 2 stroke exhaust, diesel fumes and freshly tilled dirt. :msp_smile:


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## checkthisout (Oct 26, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're out on the peninsula... to be honest when you said ya got 6' diameter trees my first thought was no f'n way... anyway most of the logging I do I don't get paid until it goes to the mill and the landowner don't get paid either, just how I do business... wish the mill would pay before maybe then I could afford fuel... its unlikely as Hel that the mills will pay a lump sum for an unknown quantity of wood, and even more unlikely that they are going to pay before it crosses their gate, the mills are cagier then the loggers (and that's say'n somethin).
> 
> If the loggers are going to give you 40% then that's a pretty good deal, there is a bunch of work involved in getting wood out of the woods, and it involves some pretty big and expensive machines. When its all over and the smoke has cleared the logger will probably make about as much as you or less (most likely less). If the ground yer on is fairly flat, as in no Sherpas or balay lines to walk the property line, their biggest danger is going to be those windfall pick up sticks logs, Bucking big wood like that is always fun but throw in the up in the air and who knows where its going once its free and its very possible some one is going to the hospital.
> 
> ...



Yeah no bluffing. I got big trees and they are up off the ground although that doesn't seem to dictate whether they contain rot or not. Just how easy they are to retrieve. 

The 3 mills I stopped at all processed whole logs. They all had excavators with processor heads that they used to buck the logs to the correct length for whatever product they want to produce.


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## checkthisout (Oct 26, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Absolutely put this off if you can. The market is terrible right now. As an example my friend contracts the hauling of spaults from a number of mills. At one time they were hauling as many as 110 chip trailers/month. He told me they had hauled 2 this month. Most mills are sitting on a lot of inventory and they are not going to be hungry for the wood to pay top dollar.
> 
> Interested to know where this is at. I see salal and shot berry bushes in the picture so I would assume right along the coast. That means to me mostly shingle wood. If true the $850/cord is a good price.
> As for costs to cut the wood I would think 300/cord would be in the neighborhood but there are variables. Closest road to fly to? Will it have to be improved?
> ...



I see you're familiar with the market where I am at. 

That seems to be the general consensus. Put it off and wait for better market conditions and for the recently started rains to stop. 

What's your opinion on the risks I take by getting money on cutout basis? Other than dishonesty, I am also worried about the possibility of the mill possibly going bankrupt before I get paid. 

I realize I'm being a bit paranoid but it's one of those things where I am trying to use previous life experience to make better decisions. 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Humptulips (Oct 26, 2012)

It really just depends on the mill if they are trustworthy enough for selling on a cut out.
I know a few guys from the Lake Quinault area. My friend who hauls the spaults has a pretty good idea who to trust in a larger area. Forks to Hoquiam.

If you want to hang around and watch the block cutters you better start learning spanish. Almost all the block cutters and most of the mills are mexican.

One more thought and it is about spaults. Are you going to be happy about a lot of spaults on your land when they get done? I'd ask about it. Even if they load the logs out they will want to cut blocks out of the remains and that means spaults.


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## StihlKiwi (Oct 27, 2012)

Whats a spault?


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## checkthisout (Oct 27, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> It really just depends on the mill if they are trustworthy enough for selling on a cut out.
> I know a few guys from the Lake Quinault area. My friend who hauls the spaults has a pretty good idea who to trust in a larger area. Forks to Hoquiam.
> 
> If you want to hang around and watch the block cutters you better start learning spanish. Almost all the block cutters and most of the mills are mexican.
> ...



One of the three mills I stopped at were Mexicans. They were the ones that sarcastically offered to sell me their Mill. 

The other two operators made me aware that it's best to take the logs out whole as there will be _less_ spalts but that it's still going to make a mess of my property. They both told me (without me asking) that they would stack the crap in the place of my choice. And no, that doesn't make happy. Having lots of firewood will make me happy but I am willing to tolerate the mess in exchange for money and having the timber removed by me rather than thieves. 

I need a lot of gravel. I have a pit lined up but I am going to do a test dig and check the quality of the pit run. (Old riverbed close by) so perhaps I will have a large hole in which I can place some of the spalts. 

They did some clearing for a road down the way. It's dumbfounding how much timber is buried underneath that loam. That old growth just doesn't decay.The forest floor is 4 feet thick with 12 inch diameter logs crisscrossing each other and covered in a blanket of salal, huckleberry and moss.


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## checkthisout (Oct 27, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Whats a spault?



The chunks of wood that are rotten, knotted or too curvy to turn into useable product.


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## StihlKiwi (Oct 27, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> The chunks of wood that are rotten, knotted or too curvy to turn into useable product.



Oh yep. We call them slovens, or offcuts. Only good for chips/pulp


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## northmanlogging (Oct 27, 2012)

be very very careful about digging your own gravel pit, a little bit and no one will notice, a bunch and you have fish and wildlife, DNR, "the COUNTY", and whomever happens to have the mineral rights to your property all over you, like white on rice. Be sure to get the proper permits for that kind of thing, logging a guy can pirate a few loads out and no one is the wiser, or cares, digging big holes in the ground can potentially upset the ground water situation, making a whole bunch of people very unhappy with you when their well is suddenly dry, or that salmon creek that is fed by underground streams dries up


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## checkthisout (Oct 27, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> be very very careful about digging your own gravel pit, a little bit and no one will notice, a bunch and you have fish and wildlife, DNR, "the COUNTY", and whomever happens to have the mineral rights to your property all over you, like white on rice. Be sure to get the proper permits for that kind of thing, logging a guy can pirate a few loads out and no one is the wiser, or cares, digging big holes in the ground can potentially upset the ground water situation, making a whole bunch of people very unhappy with you when their well is suddenly dry, or that salmon creek that is fed by underground streams dries up



Already permitted. The previous owner has 1/2 mineral rights except gravel. :msp_tongue:


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## Gologit (Oct 27, 2012)

*Another thing to think about.*

I'm not advocating any kind of illegal behavior but if you can do your little project in the summer time you might be better off.

All the people in the regulatory agencies are fairly busy in the summer and if you've forgotten to dot an I or cross a T they might not notice. Or, faced with a huge workload for which they're understaffed, they might let you off with a warning or a correction notice.

In the winter they're under-worked. And bored. And, to help justify their existence, they go out and _look_ for things to do. Don't make a target of yourself.


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## redprospector (Oct 27, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> be very very careful about digging your own gravel pit, a little bit and no one will notice, a bunch and you have fish and wildlife, DNR, "the COUNTY", and whomever happens to have the mineral rights to your property all over you, like white on rice. Be sure to get the proper permits for that kind of thing, logging a guy can pirate a few loads out and no one is the wiser, or cares, digging big holes in the ground can potentially upset the ground water situation, making a whole bunch of people very unhappy with you when their well is suddenly dry, or that salmon creek that is fed by underground streams dries up



We live in the land of the free, and the home of the over-regulated it seems. 
Exactly what is it that we buy when we purchase a piece of ground?

Andy


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## redprospector (Oct 27, 2012)

You're probably right. I'm looking for a piece of dirt to buy so I can set up a little mill, store logs, and whatever else I decide. Hahaha. Wish me luck, it appears I'm going to need it.

Andy


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## RandyMac (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm thinking since shakes are usually new construction, which is soft right now, consider making split rails and posts. 
The market for decorative fencing seems to be stronger.


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## Gologit (Oct 27, 2012)

redprospector said:


> We live in the land of the free, and the home of the over-regulated it seems.
> Exactly what is it that we buy when we purchase a piece of ground?
> 
> Andy



We don't _buy_ anything when we buy ground, we just pay for the privilege of occupying it until we die or go broke. 

Sometimes we get to the point where we're not paying much...but we're always paying something. To somebody. Usually it's somebody who couldn't do what we do but isn't a damn bit shy about telling us that what we're doing is wrong.


Sometimes I don't know if I have ground or it has me. We live in an ever increasing spiral of environmental complexity and regulatory compliance. I don't see that changing any time soon. I deal with it. I have to.

But...I'd do it again. It's a helluva ride.


P.S....I *do* get to park wherever I want.


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## redprospector (Oct 27, 2012)

Gologit said:


> We don't _buy_ anything when we buy ground, we just pay for the privilege of occupying it until we die or go broke.
> 
> Sometimes we get to the point where we're not paying much...but we're always paying something. To somebody. Usually it's somebody who couldn't do what we do but isn't a damn bit shy about telling us that what we're doing is wrong.
> 
> ...



Yeah, parking, that seems to be at a premium now.
We own 5 lots in town right now. Evidently folks in town frown on parking a skidder, dozer, feller buncher, masticator, firewood processor, portable sawmill, and about 50 cords of firewood logs in town. The Bobcat's ok though. 

Andy


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## Humptulips (Oct 27, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I'm not advocating any kind of illegal behavior but if you can do your little project in the summer time you might be better off.
> 
> All the people in the regulatory agencies are fairly busy in the summer and if you've forgotten to dot an I or cross a T they might not notice. Or, faced with a huge workload for which they're understaffed, they might let you off with a warning or a correction notice.
> 
> In the winter they're under-worked. And bored. And, to help justify their existence, they go out and _look_ for things to do. Don't make a target of yourself.



Very true, water is your enemy. Anyone looks and finds a trickle of water it can be a problem.
We have a lot of trickles in the winter, fall and spring. Summer time is best.


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## checkthisout (Oct 28, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Very true, water is your enemy. Anyone looks and finds a trickle of water it can be a problem.
> We have a lot of trickles in the winter, fall and spring. Summer time is best.



A DNR forester walked the land with me. We then filled out much of the permit on my computer right there on site. We then drove back to the DNR office where he printed the necessary environmental maps which we attached to the permit. 

I then went over to a different part of the office where I dropped the permit off and wrote the gals a check. 

They approved my permit 10 days later.


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## checkthisout (Oct 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I'm not advocating any kind of illegal behavior but if you can do your little project in the summer time you might be better off.
> 
> All the people in the regulatory agencies are fairly busy in the summer and if you've forgotten to dot an I or cross a T they might not notice. Or, faced with a huge workload for which they're understaffed, they might let you off with a warning or a correction notice.
> 
> In the winter they're under-worked. And bored. And, to help justify their existence, they go out and _look_ for things to do. Don't make a target of yourself.



A DNR rep walked the land with me and then helped me fill out the permit. Him and the office gals proofread it. 

All in all they spent about 4 hours with me. 

Honestly, it was actually a really pleasant experience.


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## checkthisout (Oct 28, 2012)

Would it be bad if I went in with my own equipment (not me but a pro operator friend of mine who works for cheap) and stacked the logs so a self-loader could take them to the mill?

My reason for doing it this way is simply because I am turning the area into a campsite when I'm done. 

The loggers could build me a rough road but I would need to sync up their presence with a dumptruck for hauling gravel from a nearby pit. In other words I'd have to get them to stick around to load the truck at the pit while the dump takes gravel down to the site. 

Of course. I'm starting to ask too many questions. 

My gut sense tells me I should just stay out of it (as others have said) and let the pros handle it all.

I'll take some more pics next time I'm out. I assume you guys are always open to viewing good wood ####.


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## checkthisout (Oct 28, 2012)

Keit78hk said:


> Exactly what is it that we buy when we purchase a piece of ground?



The only true thing you are buying is the ability to profit off the land on a resale and the ability to list it as an asset. 

And of course whatever is on the title. 

The trick to owning property is not to improve it much. Keep the money in your pocket and do the bare minimum you have to do to live there. Keep the grass cut and stuff but don't go hog wild fancying up the place which will only drive up the assessed value.


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## KYLogger (Oct 28, 2012)

In my humble opinion shop around for some gypo loggers, I realize that things are a little different in the Appalachian hardwoods compared to the PNW, however a logger is a logger. I typically cut on percentages for the landowner, be it 65%-35%, 50%-50% etc......Checks for the landowner are made out at the mill and are either hand delivered or mailed by me or the mill's secretary so there is no fear of bein hoo doooed.

Just my $.02

Tom


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 28, 2012)

Checkthisout, I can tell your up in the 101 area. Worked allot of the promised land myself and been around the shake rats, in an official capacity, wouldn't ever trust any of them with my dog. It sounds like you are pretty aware of the value of your wood, its utilization and what it will take to get it out so I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but those buried logs are worth quite a bit too. I can get you a number for a guy that specializes in cedar salvage operations concerning valuation and overview of the sale. He can tell you who you can trust and who you can't. He's a contractor and does this for one of the major timber companies in the area, and some small forestry consulting on the side. Hump may even know the guy. He's a wizzard at figuring out how much volume is on site. If interested shoot me a Private Message and I can give you the details.

As others have said watch them. There are some okay cedar guys out there but even the good ones push the limits. Watch the wood leave your property every day if you can and keep a tally. That's what the guy I mentioned above does when they're flying blocks out. He keeps a very close tally on what is flown. Absolutely make sure what can be taken is marked or what can't be taken is marked clearly. You would think this sort of thing is clearly evident but I have personally seen clearly evident turned into a "Oh they didn't understand" which is really they just got caught and put up a B.S. excuse. I agree with redrospector about trust and getting screwed but when it comes to shake rats never trust and always watch out for yourself. You're a small landowner and are at a disadvantage if you get screwed. These guys depend on the big timber owners for a steady supply of wood, well as steady as can be, and if they completely screw up too bad they are out in the cold so the biggies can fine them and other stuff but you will have a hard time. The more i roll it over get a good cruise done on the standing and downed timber so if you do have to go to court you have physical and professional evidence and keep that tally so you know if more is being taken out than should. I doubt you will have problems but when it comes to cedar better safe than sorry.

Wes


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## madhatte (Oct 28, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Very true, water is your enemy. Anyone looks and finds a trickle of water it can be a problem.



...WHICH REMINDS ME -- we haven't mentioned the real PITA agency in this state, Department Of Ecology, which should actually be called "Department Of Dirty Water". You may have a DNR permit but DOE can still bite you. I hate to recommend even speaking to those folks, but you really don't want to play the "apology vs permission" odds with that particular agency. I'd at very least give them a call, have an inspector come by and bless the DNR's recommendations, and make sure you have everything documented. This will save you big bucks in the future.


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## Humptulips (Oct 28, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Would it be bad if I went in with my own equipment (not me but a pro operator friend of mine who works for cheap) and stacked the logs so a self-loader could take them to the mill?
> 
> My reason for doing it this way is simply because I am turning the area into a campsite when I'm done.
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with doing the work yourself. Good luck finding a self loader though. Why not load it out when you have the machine there?
To me it all boils down to trust. If you sell the cedar you have to find someone you can trust unless you sell it lump sum and money upfront. I think you will have to take a little less if you go the lump sum route.
Other option is to cut it yourself and sell it a PU load at a time. That way if you trust no one they can't sting you to bad. NO money, no unload!


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2012)

absolutely nothing wrong with doing it yourself, its just a pain in shorts, that's why people hire loggers:msp_tongue:. Seriously it can be done, and more power to ya, but it is allot of dangerous work. there are self loaders out there I am compiling a list, but for now they are in the snohomish and skagit county areas, not that they would mind traveling, it just costs you more money. If you buy an 066/660 stihl like you said earlier it will pull a 48-54" bar but an 880/088 would pull it and then some, but good luck finding a used 088/880 (I think guys are sleeping with em and not there wifeys).

Be super careful when bucking off those windfall root balls, just cause most of em go the right way does not mean they all do, and there big enough that you can't run fast enough to get out of the way, its always quite the rush to cut em though. Good luck

Oh yeah and kudos on getting all the permits, its a pain but it keeps you out of court, usually


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## checkthisout (Oct 29, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Checkthisout, I can tell your up in the 101 area. Worked allot of the promised land myself and been around the shake rats, in an official capacity, wouldn't ever trust any of them with my dog. It sounds like you are pretty aware of the value of your wood, its utilization and what it will take to get it out so I'm not trying to insult your intelligence but those buried logs are worth quite a bit too. I can get you a number for a guy that specializes in cedar salvage operations concerning valuation and overview of the sale. He can tell you who you can trust and who you can't. He's a contractor and does this for one of the major timber companies in the area, and some small forestry consulting on the side. Hump may even know the guy. He's a wizzard at figuring out how much volume is on site. If interested shoot me a Private Message and I can give you the details.
> 
> As others have said watch them. There are some okay cedar guys out there but even the good ones push the limits. Watch the wood leave your property every day if you can and keep a tally. That's what the guy I mentioned above does when they're flying blocks out. He keeps a very close tally on what is flown. Absolutely make sure what can be taken is marked or what can't be taken is marked clearly. You would think this sort of thing is clearly evident but I have personally seen clearly evident turned into a "Oh they didn't understand" which is really they just got caught and put up a B.S. excuse. I agree with redrospector about trust and getting screwed but when it comes to shake rats never trust and always watch out for yourself. You're a small landowner and are at a disadvantage if you get screwed. These guys depend on the big timber owners for a steady supply of wood, well as steady as can be, and if they completely screw up too bad they are out in the cold so the biggies can fine them and other stuff but you will have a hard time. The more i roll it over get a good cruise done on the standing and downed timber so if you do have to go to court you have physical and professional evidence and keep that tally so you know if more is being taken out than should. I doubt you will have problems but when it comes to cedar better safe than sorry.
> 
> Wes




It sounds like you are saying that I should agree to a certain price for certain trees, get the money upfront and then monitor what they take so they don't take more than what's agreed upon?

Just trying to understand. 

You just validated my exact concerns. I agree to a certain lump sum price but then the loggers come in and take a whole bunch more wood than I knew was there. 

That's why I would prefer to do something where we put money into a bank account and the loggers come in and do their thing, the mill processes it up, we then count the quantity and I either give money back to the mill or the mill puts more money into the account. 

I talked to a company called pacific forest management, they were very very helpful and talked with me for quite a bit but seemed to think they would dig into my margin too much paying them for their services. 

Perhaps they were just too busy at that time.


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## checkthisout (Oct 29, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> absolutely nothing wrong with doing it yourself, its just a pain in shorts, that's why people hire loggers:msp_tongue:. Seriously it can be done, and more power to ya, but it is allot of dangerous work. there are self loaders out there I am compiling a list, but for now they are in the snohomish and skagit county areas, not that they would mind traveling, it just costs you more money. If you buy an 066/660 stihl like you said earlier it will pull a 48-54" bar but an 880/088 would pull it and then some, but good luck finding a used 088/880 (I think guys are sleeping with em and not there wifeys).
> 
> Be super careful when bucking off those windfall root balls, just cause most of em go the right way does not mean they all do, and there big enough that you can't run fast enough to get out of the way, its always quite the rush to cut em though. Good luck
> 
> Oh yeah and kudos on getting all the permits, its a pain but it keeps you out of court, usually




Got to keep it legit. I have about 70 hours behind the controls of a large excavator so I understand most of the dangers. I wouldn't be doing that end though. A friend of mine who is a professional operator and seemingly melts and becomes one with any piece of earth-moving machinery he gets into would be doing that.


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## checkthisout (Oct 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the comments so far guys. Good or bad, believe me, all are helpful and don't be afraid to hurt my feelings!

The way I really want to do it is rent my own machine, have my buddy run it and hire a professional logger (independent contractor) to run the saw. I could cut the logs myself but those are famous last words right?

We'd stack the logs and then I'd call a few different mills to come out and bid on the wood. 

I'd then agree to a certain price for certain marked logs and I'd have a good idea of what they are worth since there would be cuts on both ends and any rot, twisting or knots would be visible. The buyer would pay me cash and then a self-loader could come down and pick them up. 

This way I would know what I have and be able to have the excavator there for the other work I need to do.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 29, 2012)

while plausible that the mill would pay you on site, don't hold your breath on it, they don't like paying until that wood crosses through their scale house, even then you have to deal with the scaler with the 10" long thumb... 

Keep load tickets from the self loader they should give you a ticket saying which mill its going to and such. Try to keep track of how much wood you have on each truck, that number will be higher than the scale house it always is no matter what mill you bring it to. just remember the mills control the purse strings, they set the prices, the scale the logs, the say if its a cull. If its a decent mill then they will have been around for awhile, the really shady ones tend to run out of wood after awhile.

If you can talk to the buyer at the mill find out what kind of length and diameter they LIKE,


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 29, 2012)

The guys at PFM are good guys. But as they advised you they would dig into your margins too much. They can do small stuff but they do lots of engineering work for the companies and cruising and therfore they are busy but could get the job done for sure.

I'm wasn't advocating lump sum or by volume. If you sell it lump sum you agree on a volume. If there is more there than agreed on, the shake rats make out pretty good and you lose a little bit but that's the nature of the beast so it requires you to have a sharp pencil and a good cruise. If its by the bundle (cord) or mbf you have to watch exactly how much is taken out. 

Finally with both you need to make sure anything you don't want cut doesn't get cut and hauled off.

If you did the work and brought the logs out yourself to a easily accessible part of your property and had them look em over that would be your safest option to theft but then you're the one having to do the work but if you are building a road and such and need the equipment there that could be an option as well. It's up to you and what you're comfortable doing.

I wouldn't however process the sticks into shake blocks. Need to know what your doing and its labor intensive. The crew could come in to your deck of logs and cut them up right there and the mess would be concentrated instead of spread all over. Then they have to cover the final handling costs and trucking.

Wes


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## Humptulips (Oct 29, 2012)

I think a lot of posts in this thread are confusing this with hireing a logger and selling to a sawmill. This is dealing with shakerats and and shake/shingle mills. Not the same thing!

If it was mine I would either cut into blocks on site and sell to a mill as I hauled them in or sell the blocks by the cord to a mill I trusted and be there when they load out to scale the load. Let the mill supply the block cutters.
If you want to dig the logs out I would sell the logs but I would have trucks there to load while you had machinery on site. You would still need to cut blocks on site because there will be cedar left after you load all the logs out.

You are going to have a real problem getting a self loader and unless you plan on camping out on site you risk theft while the logs are decked waiting for bids.
Besides that I wonder if a self loader could handle some of the logs if your size description is accurate. Your guy could split them if he savys cedar and make them easier to load or he could do a lot of damage if he doesn't savy. I just see a lot of problems with the self loader idea.

Mentioning PCM means to me you must be close to Forks. I'm not familiar with people that far north but don't count out getting bids from Amanda Park/Neilton/Humptulips. They seem to haul blocks all over and a long way so you might get a better bid from someone a little farther afield.


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## checkthisout (Oct 30, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> I think a lot of posts in this thread are confusing this with hireing a logger and selling to a sawmill. This is dealing with shakerats and and shake/shingle mills. Not the same thing!
> 
> If it was mine I would either cut into blocks on site and sell to a mill as I hauled them in or sell the blocks by the cord to a mill I trusted and be there when they load out to scale the load. Let the mill supply the block cutters.
> If you want to dig the logs out I would sell the logs but I would have trucks there to load while you had machinery on site. You would still need to cut blocks on site because there will be cedar left after you load all the logs out.
> ...



This is very helpful, thanks. 

I am not sure where half these mills get their wood. There are a number of them dotting the countryside. I love to fish over there and your average clearcut has been scoured down to nothing in regards to any salvageable wood although last year I saw some guys cutting blocks off of stumps. Upon inspection, you could see that in the past, someone else had already cut blocks off the stumps!

Yes, the wood would be going to shingle mills and they want whole logs. I am not sure what you guys mean when you say scale ramps though. The pacific forest management guy used that same term as well. 

All I saw were big dumpster looking things that hold 1 cord that they stack the wood in. I figured this was how they measured it out?

I wouldn't have to use a self-loader but I'm trying to find a second option if I can't move all the wood in the time frame that I have the excavator rented. 

Ah logistics. :bang:

Truth be told though, planning all this is actually fun for me.


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## slowp (Oct 30, 2012)

Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.

Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume. 

Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

There is a couple of self loaders that could possibly handle stuff that big. they run their hydraulics a little higher than is suggested... but if you hire them they will want some one on the ground to wrap the logs with a choker or chain cause their grapple just taint big enough


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## checkthisout (Oct 30, 2012)

slowp said:


> Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.
> 
> Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume.
> 
> Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.



And I'll follow this up with another question. 

These guys work independently from the shake mills or they work for the Mills? In others words is this an unbiased third party where the logging truck would "stop on his way to the Mill (shingle processor) so to speak?


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## checkthisout (Oct 30, 2012)

slowp said:


> Scaling ramps are where logs are scaled, measured, defect taken out--this is where they figure out what you are paid for. This is done on the log truck, without unloading. There are ramps alongside where the scalers walk and where they put their ladders so they can climb up on the log truck loads. They can't see every log.
> 
> Roll out scaling: The logs are unloaded, and rolled out so the scaler can see each log (we hope) and get a better measurement of the volume.
> 
> Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.



Ok, so a simple google search brought up a few places in Forks that perform this service. 

Wow, another card to consider.......


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## Humptulips (Oct 30, 2012)

Yea, where do they get the wood? I wonder when it will end myself. Some of the ground has been salvaged 7,8 times. Virtually every block show has been went over multiple times. The quality of wood they will accept keeps going down and they pay a little more to cut blocks so shake rats can dig a little deeper. I think they are cleaning them up now enough there won't be another time.
They haul the blocks in from a long way too. There pretty much aren't any shake/shingle mills left outside the Penninsula (Excluding BC and AK of course). If you have salvage cedar and you're off the Pennisula there isn't many places to go so a lot gets hauled in.
I've seen blocks coming from Tillamook, Everett and I had a block show about 15 years ago near Bremerton and had to haul the blocks to Amanda Park.

If you are selling blocks save your money on the scalers. You can scale them yourself. The mill will to and you can haggle a little if there is a difference. If you're selling logs use a bureau scaler.


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## checkthisout (Oct 30, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Yea, where do they get the wood? I wonder when it will end myself. Some of the ground has been salvaged 7,8 times. Virtually every block show has been went over multiple times. The quality of wood they will accept keeps going down and they pay a little more to cut blocks so shake rats can dig a little deeper. I think they are cleaning them up now enough there won't be another time.
> They haul the blocks in from a long way too. There pretty much aren't any shake/shingle mills left outside the Penninsula (Excluding BC and AK of course). If you have salvage cedar and you're off the Pennisula there isn't many places to go so a lot gets hauled in.
> I've seen blocks coming from Tillamook, Everett and I had a block show about 15 years ago near Bremerton and had to haul the blocks to Amanda Park.
> 
> If you are selling blocks save your money on the scalers. You can scale them yourself. The mill will to and you can haggle a little if there is a difference. If you're selling logs use a bureau scaler.



I called a Bureau scaler this morning, he told me they measure the bins at the mills after the wood is processed. 

He basically sounds like he could be my eyes if I wasn't able to count? :msp_razz:


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## northmanlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

Used to be a bunch of shake mills out Darrington way, pretty sure most of em are closed down now and yes you can thank the owls. I did hear about a guy I went to skhool with started a part time shake mill I could make some calls??? There is one of the mills in Oso that converted over to custom milling have no idea who's running it or how to get ahold of em. Other wise every one of em got shut down in the early-mid 90s.

As far as scalers haven't met one yet that could see straight or count to ten


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## Humptulips (Oct 30, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> I called a Bureau scaler this morning, he told me they measure the bins at the mills after the wood is processed.
> 
> He basically sounds like he could be my eyes if I wasn't able to count? :msp_razz:



Wow, If that's how they scale I would run away from them as fast as I can. Those bins are never going to be filled perfectly square to the top of the bin. They will be rounded off on top and everything above the bin will be lost to you by that method. Go look at some of the bins. Measure the bin and then the actually blocks. There will be a difference. I can't believe a mill would set still for scaling like that either. Besides that there could be a dispute on how many bins were delivered and how is the scaler to know if the blocks are gone.
Everybody figures by the area in the face of your pile. 64 square feet in a cord of shake blocks, 96 square feet in a cord of shingle blocks.
I'd take truck scale. I never heard of anyone paying by the size of the bins.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

slowp said:


> Scaler: The person who figures out the actual volume of your logs, and you will be paid based on that figure.



Don't forget, also "chief of intergossip communications"


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## checkthisout (Oct 31, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Wow, If that's how they scale I would run away from them as fast as I can. Those bins are never going to be filled perfectly square to the top of the bin. They will be rounded off on top and everything above the bin will be lost to you by that method. Go look at some of the bins. Measure the bin and then the actually blocks. There will be a difference. I can't believe a mill would set still for scaling like that either. Besides that there could be a dispute on how many bins were delivered and how is the scaler to know if the blocks are gone.
> Everybody figures by the area in the face of your pile. 64 square feet in a cord of shake blocks, 96 square feet in a cord of shingle blocks.
> I'd take truck scale. I never heard of anyone paying by the size of the bins.



Acquiring useful and accurate information is hard work. Getting a hold of the right people is even harder. 

I called a different mill today and he discouraged any harvesting of cedar with a shovel. Too much broken wood. He wants to cut it into blocks and fly it out. This doesn't make sense to me given the proximity of the road to the site. 

I guess everybody has their own way.


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## slowp (Oct 31, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> Don't forget, also "chief of intergossip communications"



One member on here will chastise you for using the term gossip, if the scalers are men. Men don't gossip.
They "exchange information." :rolleyes2: 

I believe fishing and hunting information is dispersed along with other informative tidbits. If you listen to the CB, pictures of salmon caught over the weekend, or better than that, smoked salmon brought to the scale shack, can be a highlight of the day.


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## madhatte (Oct 31, 2012)

slowp said:


> I believe fishing and hunting information is dispersed along with other informative tidbits.



Pfft. Nobody spends the time on the ground we techs do. You wanna know where the deer are, ask the folks doing survival surveys.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

Is the survival survey how they determine the good foresters from the bad foresters? The ones that survive get to keep their jobs:rolleyes2:


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## madhatte (Oct 31, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Is the survival survey how they determine the good foresters from the bad foresters? The ones that survive get to keep their jobs:rolleyes2:



grumblegrumbleNOgrumble


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## Humptulips (Oct 31, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Acquiring useful and accurate information is hard work. Getting a hold of the right people is even harder.
> 
> I called a different mill today and he discouraged any harvesting of cedar with a shovel. Too much broken wood. He wants to cut it into blocks and fly it out. This doesn't make sense to me given the proximity of the road to the site.
> 
> I guess everybody has their own way.



Could be in the way their mill is set up. Some mills are not set up for logs so they prefer blocks. If they are set up for logs they can get them cut cheaper but it can be a challenge to figure out what will come out of a log at times. Sometimes a log will turn out to be better then thought but other times a log that looks fair will be buggy and have zero blocks in it.

Then there is the spault problem. If you cut logs you get all the spaults and it costs to get rid of them. Block mills make very little waste so it keeps the overhead down.

You never mentioned how far it is to a road. They can fly a ways reasonably. Lifting out of standing stuff costs though. If you are going to leave trees standing it will run up the cost of a fly so that makes the machinery sound better especially if you plan on putting in a road anyway.


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## checkthisout (Oct 31, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Could be in the way their mill is set up. Some mills are not set up for logs so they prefer blocks. If they are set up for logs they can get them cut cheaper but it can be a challenge to figure out what will come out of a log at times. Sometimes a log will turn out to be better then thought but other times a log that looks fair will be buggy and have zero blocks in it.
> 
> Then there is the spault problem. If you cut logs you get all the spaults and it costs to get rid of them. Block mills make very little waste so it keeps the overhead down.
> 
> You never mentioned how far it is to a road. They can fly a ways reasonably. Lifting out of standing stuff costs though. If you are going to leave trees standing it will run up the cost of a fly so that makes the machinery sound better especially if you plan on putting in a road anyway.



Other than a few snags, everything will be left standing. The road I am putting in would make the longest haul to a road about 50 feet. 

BTW, how is fishing over there right now?


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## Humptulips (Oct 31, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Other than a few snags, everything will be left standing. The road I am putting in would make the longest haul to a road about 50 feet.
> 
> BTW, how is fishing over there right now?



Not a fisherman but I imagine the rivers are out of shape the way it has been pouring down rain. I was seeing a lot of boats going by but not the last couple days.
Trapping season opens tomorrow and elk season Saturday so I'll be busy after today.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 31, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Not a fisherman but I imagine the rivers are out of shape the way it has been pouring down rain. I was seeing a lot of boats going by but not the last couple days.
> Trapping season opens tomorrow and elk season Saturday so I'll be busy after today.



Do you trap Hump?


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## northmanlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

Its always surprised me how much flying they use to get the blocks out, what with the price of fuel and how much a helicopter burns per hour, plus the pilots wages etc. you'd think it would be cheaper to hire some sherpas and just pack the wood out by hand....


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## Humptulips (Nov 1, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Do you trap Hump?



You bet! I am also President of the Washington State Trappers Association.


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## Humptulips (Nov 1, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Its always surprised me how much flying they use to get the blocks out, what with the price of fuel and how much a helicopter burns per hour, plus the pilots wages etc. you'd think it would be cheaper to hire some sherpas and just pack the wood out by hand....



They move a lot of wood in a hurry. Cheaper then using a gilley. There's a word I bet not many today are familiar with. Basically a homemade ATV they used to use to haul blocks out of the woods. Flying is so much cheaper and easier. Packed 'em out too when I was in school back in the dark ages,$1.35/Hr.


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 1, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> They move a lot of wood in a hurry. Cheaper then using a gilley. There's a word I bet not many today are familiar with. Basically a homemade ATV they used to use to haul blocks out of the woods. Flying is so much cheaper and easier. Packed 'em out too when I was in school back in the dark ages,$1.35/Hr.



My dad and uncle had a shake show and mill and he wound up having his own mill after they split. He had a gilley. Called it a jeep freak lol Very cool to hear you're the trappers association pres.! What do you typically trap for?


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## Humptulips (Nov 1, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> My dad and uncle had a shake show and mill and he wound up having his own mill after they split. He had a gilley. Called it a jeep freak lol Very cool to hear you're the trappers association pres.! What do you typically trap for?



The main ones for me in Grays harbor are beaver, otter, bobcat and civets.


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 1, 2012)

Now how do you live trap an otter? I know about those clamshell live traps for beaver but never heard of it done for otter. Live trap bobcat same way as cougar?


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## Humptulips (Nov 2, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Now how do you live trap an otter? I know about those clamshell live traps for beaver but never heard of it done for otter. Live trap bobcat same way as cougar?


There are a couple of us in the state building what are known as swim through traps. I make a model that is very effective on otter. They are cage traps but not live traps. They are set underwater in channels, no bait.
The clam shell trap as you call them are effective on beaver however they are expensive and cause excessive damage to the animal. I will not use them.
It is illegal to trap cougar. I don't know anyone that would have a trap big enough anyway.
Bobcat are trapped in live traps with bait or scent as lure.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 2, 2012)

I was under the impression that trapping beaver was a no no? If'n not than I know a whole bunch of people that would probably pay you to get rid of the beavers on their property, especially if the dams they built go with em... the critters are all right I guess its the sudden reclassification as wetlands that bothers most people... how does one cook beaver or otter anyway? There is just too much room for skhool boy humor here by the way.


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## RandyMac (Nov 2, 2012)

you otter know the best part of beaver is the tail.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 2, 2012)

... nevermind... never been good at trapping beaver usually just wait until a lonely one wanders by and scare, uh it, into pitying me...


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## Humptulips (Nov 2, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> I was under the impression that trapping beaver was a no no? If'n not than I know a whole bunch of people that would probably pay you to get rid of the beavers on their property, especially if the dams they built go with em... the critters are all right I guess its the sudden reclassification as wetlands that bothers most people... how does one cook beaver or otter anyway? There is just too much room for skhool boy humor here by the way.



:arg:

Trapping is totally legal in WA. The types of traps we can use are restricted. We trap for two reasons. One is for damage control. The other is for the fur. I am licensed as a fur trapper and further licensed as a Nuisance Wildlife Control Operator, meaning I can trap for hire out of season for problem animals.
Furbearing animals are not usually trapped for human consumption. Some people do eat beaver but never otter. 
Oh, I have heard all the bad jokes numerous times.
Want to know more, visit http://watrappers.com/


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## checkthisout (Nov 6, 2012)

I noticed part of my property line had been marked (not professionally). I called the adjacent landowner who I found out had gotten permits to log as well. 

After a short convo I realized he was the one who had marked _my_ property lines and was about to begin harvesting trees off _my_ property. I'm starting to get annoyed. First the neighbor to the south insisted he owned my land. After I explained to him what an idiot he was for believing the lines were located where he believed them to be, he finally ceded. 

After that was resolved I now find that the neighbor to north thought he owned my entire property and had recieved permits to log it. WTF?

Does this sort of thing happen often in timber country?


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## slowp (Nov 6, 2012)

Do you clearly own the timber rights? In Okanogan County, during the 1990s, people bought acreage. They were soon shocked to find out that they did not own the timber. Omak Wood Products (does not exist now) had the right to the timber and began cutting it. It was legal, it was done. You might want to check that out.


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## Gologit (Nov 6, 2012)

Amen on the timber rights. That's happened down here too...and a lot more often than people realize.

Maybe a good professional survey of property lines might be in order. Soon.


It sure doesn't sound like a great start at getting along with the neighbors.


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## Joe46 (Nov 6, 2012)

slowp said:


> Do you clearly own the timber rights? In Okanogan County, during the 1990s, people bought acreage. They were soon shocked to find out that they did not own the timber. Omak Wood Products (does not exist now) had the right to the timber and began cutting it. It was legal, it was done. You might want to check that out.


I'm just guessing it was on the Colville Res


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## Samlock (Nov 6, 2012)

I don't know how you handle the property exchanges, but a delivered timber right is a reservation one would think a landowner should remember to mention before closing the deal.

Well, there is forgetful people everywhere in the world. Two winters back I was cutting a sloped patch of pine. A forester, whom I didn't recognize, showed up and asked me what the #### I was doing there, since he had bought timber rights of that particular patch. I said: "So did the company which hired me." It appeared the landowner had sold a single piece of timber rights twice, without telling anyone. It was a bit of a mess and it took awhile to sort it out. I did finish cutting the patch anyhow. I calculated that I'll eventually get paid, the boys are just negotiating which address my bill will get sent to.

So they did and I got my check.


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## checkthisout (Nov 6, 2012)

slowp said:


> Do you clearly own the timber rights?  In Okanogan County, during the 1990s, people bought acreage. They were soon shocked to find out that they did not own the timber. Omak Wood Products (does not exist now) had the right to the timber and began cutting it. It was legal, it was done. You might want to check that out.



Good question. 

Yes, I own timber rights but 1/2 Oil, Gas and Mineral (except gravel) are retained by the previous owner. 

I was going to get a boundary survey but I dug around and found the stakes on one end of the property and can easily measure and find the stakes or at least approximate within a foot or so by measuring from a sectional marker on the other end of the property so I don't feel the need to cough up the $2200.00 getting one done. 

I think I should send a certified letter to the landowner and DNR saying there is a disagreement concerning boundaries and such.


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## checkthisout (Nov 6, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Amen on the timber rights. That's happened down here too...and a lot more often than people realize.
> 
> Maybe a good professional survey of property lines might be in order. Soon.
> 
> ...



More drama than I care to bore you to tears with. 

Both these guys were so egregiously wrong about the boundary locations yet were so sure they were right. When I responded with simple logic showing measurements from stakes on the ground, GIS pictures (satellite photos with boundary lines displayed), GPS information, compass bearings and the like, the looks on their faces and confusion were as if I was speaking voodoo. 

Why are the people who make the most ignorant assertions always the most confident? :bang:


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## Gologit (Nov 6, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> Why are the people who make the most ignorant assertions always the most confident? :bang:




I don't know...but it's certainly a common affliction.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 6, 2012)

a while back we had a good conversation with a second home owner overlooking a bridge we were crossing with trucks.

"you can't cross that bridge, its mine"

OK, we stopped hauling for the day.

That evening, the landowner had a conversation with this inholding landowner. "My father put that bridge in 35 years ago and you've been here for five. And, by the way, you don't actually have an easement to your house. Would you care to conitnue this conversation?"

Trucks resumed hauling the next morning. Its not very often you have to hit the jake on an uphill and downhill.


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## slowp (Nov 7, 2012)

Joe46 said:


> I'm just guessing it was on the Colville Res



Nope, but close. It was the last hurrah of the employee owned Omak Wood Products. They hit the Aeneas Valley pretty hard. Yard trees went to the mill.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2012)

Why is it there is almost always one neighbor on any given bit of property, that thinks they own 20' more than they really do? If you don't have a neighbor like this could it be you? The surveys are about the only legal way to retain what is yours. Short of open warfare, getting the law on your side quickly and effectively may ruffle some feathers at first but it makes a clear distinction of what you will tolerate from your neighbors, be firm but be fair, it can be hard not to be a jerk in this kind of situation.

As far as logging on your property going to someone elses this is one of the oldest tricks in the bad gypo's play book, no one is home they won't miss a few dozen trees from the property line right, those few dozen trees can make an extra log load


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## checkthisout (Nov 7, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Why is it there is almost always one neighbor on any given bit of property, that thinks they own 20' more than they really do? If you don't have a neighbor like this could it be you? The surveys are about the only legal way to retain what is yours. Short of open warfare, getting the law on your side quickly and effectively may ruffle some feathers at first but it makes a clear distinction of what you will tolerate from your neighbors, be firm but be fair, it can be hard not to be a jerk in this kind of situation.
> 
> As far as logging on your property going to someone elses this is one of the oldest tricks in the bad gypo's play book, no one is home they won't miss a few dozen trees from the property line right, those few dozen trees can make an extra log load



I was doing some reading, apparently if the boundaries aren't clearly mark it's pretty easy for someone to get away with taking wood of your property.


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## Gologit (Nov 7, 2012)

checkthisout said:


> I was doing some reading, apparently if the boundaries aren't clearly mark it's pretty easy for someone to get away with taking wood of your property.



Yup...when you figure the potential loss in timber and the resultant legal fight and all the time and aggravation that goes along with it, a survey can be cheap insurance. 

I've had a couple of instances where somebody got over onto my ground and I've also crossed somebody else's line.
It happens.

Sitting down over coffee with the maps and a copy of a current survey usually makes for a reasonable solution and helps get along with the neighbors. You don't have to love your neighbor but you sure as hell have to live next to them. Why not take every opportunity to make the relationship civil?


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2012)

Seen allot of otherwise rational people, go down right crazy over 2' of dirt, threats of violence, police, stealing, vandalism, poo talking, stink eye, and the occasional exchange of lead projectiles at high rates of speed. Yeah so I used to live I Darrington What of it...:msp_sneaky::msp_sneaky:


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## checkthisout (Nov 8, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yup...when you figure the potential loss in timber and the resultant legal fight and all the time and aggravation that goes along with it, a survey can be cheap insurance.
> 
> I've had a couple of instances where somebody got over onto my ground and I've also crossed somebody else's line.
> It happens.
> ...



That's good advice and exactly what I'll be doing. We are going to meet at the property and hash it all out. He seems reasonable, just mistaken. I always give the benefit of the doubt and will make a good-faith effort to reconcile the situation. 

I think it's a big sting for him finding out he doesn't own all that wood. His property has already been logged in the past so while there is still some there, there definitely isn't much as he thought.


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## slowp (Nov 8, 2012)

Speaking of cedar, I may go work with some folks to go split some planks, by hand, with fros. I'll take my camera if it is a go. The boards will be used next summer to build a trail bridge. Sounds pretty cool, and pretty heavy..as in weight.


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## checkthisout (Oct 5, 2013)

So finally finalized this. They're gonna whack it all up into blocks then helicopter it out to the road. I don't have to lift a finger. Money will be paid to me on the day the helicopter flies the wood to the road. 

This will be a quick process and allow me to personally take an accurate reading of the amount of wood going out and get me paid before the wood leaves my property. Win/Win at alleviating both of my main concerns. 

And yes, Ill take pics and video of what I can. Thanks for all the advice you guys gave on this. Now I can only hope everything goes as planned.


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## 1270d (Oct 5, 2013)

Video/pictures are appreciated


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## Gologit (Oct 5, 2013)

checkthisout said:


> So finally finalized this. They're gonna whack it all up on the ground into blocks then helicopter it out to the road. I don't have to lift a finger. Money will paid to me on the day the helicopter flies the wood the road. This will be a quick process and allow me to personally take an accurate reading of the amount of wood going out and get an exact measurement once the wood is loaded into the bins for haul off.



Good. Thanks for letting us know how it turned out.


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## zogger (Oct 6, 2013)

Ha! Just subscribing for pics and vids! I want to see this tangled mess old big wood mining!


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 6, 2013)

Glad to hear you came up with a plan.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## KiwiBro (Oct 9, 2013)

zogger said:


> Ha! Just subscribing for pics and vids! I want to see this tangled mess old big wood mining!



Me too.


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## checkthisout (Oct 14, 2013)

*A few to start.*

Going smooth so far.


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