# Arborist Insurance vs. Small Business Insurance



## PinkSaw

We've recently started our own tree service specializing in climbing and hazardous take downs. Within our short existence we've gotten more work than we can handle. We need insurance. I've researched extensively on the web and have come up with one company, the Hartford, that comprehensively insures arborists. However, we don't have a midsized company, and they keep directing us towards small business insurance carried through some of their subsidiaries in our area. I am new to this game. My husband is the arborist, I'm the groundperson/accountant/sales and marketing person/housekeeper and cook/actually a molecular biologist by day. Needless to say, I don't have a lot of time to mess around with possibilities and am looking for solid direction to take. We have no employees and no heavy equipment currently (that will change within a year). What are the pros and cons of small business insurance vs. arborist insurance and vice versa? What technically needs to be covered? How much money should we expect to pay annually? Any other pertinent information would be greatly appreciated.


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## treeguy347

Make sure you are clear with the insurance company about all the activities your business will be involved in. I was called in to remove a birch that had been felled onto a garage by another company. They were insured as landscapers (much cheaper premiums) and that only covered "light pruning," not commercial tree removal. The homeowners had to pay everything out of pocket and then go after the original company. 

Proper insurance may be more expensive, but it's well worth the protection. Make sure you read through the exclusions section very carefully.


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## woodchux

You're going to have a hard time getting insurance with out at least 2 years under your belt. I doubt the Hartford would cover a new business.


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## jsdogs

If you own the business you can get covered and exclude yourselves as the owners. You can purchas coverage at the ins. co's minimum fee as they base their rates on payroll and you have none. Try liberty mutual they are pretty good. This is for liability rates. you won't need workers comp because you have no employees. Some contracts you bid on might require you to have both lia. and w.c. and you can get both through your ins carrier. Good luck and keep your bids up. no one likes to be underbid by some one who has no insurance overhead and some day you'll be one of those people.


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## B-Edwards

I dont want to hi-jack this thread , maybe this question will also help the author. What are the rates you guys are paying for workmans comp? Our's is a little over $44.00 on the hundred. Is that a bad rate or average? Maybe several of us get together and get a Coop rate?


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## PinkSaw

*Insurance Co Run Around*

Thanks for the informative replies from everyone. So far I've gotten the run around from large and small companies alike who all need to check into other carriers to find out who's in the market for insuring small tree services. I've looked at some other posts, and it's true, you need to be as explicit as you can in describing the actual work you do - the coverage is drastically different for what falls under the category of the more commonly insured; "landscaping". Hartford doesn't insure anyone less than 100 employees, and their small business subsidiaries have no clue. I'm running into that a lot...I've put in a request with the company we have home owners insurance with...next stop, Liberty Mutual. For those small business owners out there, has finding a competent insurance agency been an issue?


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## Menchhofer

smallcompanyinsurance.com

West Bend Mutual

CNA Just to name a few...hope this helps


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## treeguy347

I got my insurance through Farm Bureau. When I first started, they had no problems writing a policy, even being greener than a new leaf in the spring. They're still the most reasonable for me. As far as comp is concerned, I pay $26 per $100. We get a discount for having a written, documented and organized safety program (Tailgate Safety).


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## elmnut

B-Edwards said:


> I dont want to hi-jack this thread , maybe this question will also help the author. What are the rates you guys are paying for workmans comp? Our's is a little over $44.00 on the hundred. Is that a bad rate or average? Maybe several of us get together and get a Coop rate?


 see if you can find ABC Trust(associated builders and contractors) it is a co-op of sorts that offers training and will perform on site evaluations, follow their recomendations and they offer lower rates. Recently switched to The Flanders group, no opinion yet.


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## toscottm

*Right Tool for the Right Job*



PinkSaw said:


> We've recently started our own tree service specializing in climbing and hazardous take downs.



Your statement above answers your own question. You are in a field of 'specialty'. Undoubtedly your hazardous take downs are not done with a butter knife and a pizza cutter. You use the right tool to perform your workmanship! Insurance products are 'tools' of risk management. Similarly to your workmanship tools, the right one for the job should always be selected.

A true 'arborist insurance policy' will provide protection against many risks not covered by a 'small business policy'. Even a generic 'contractors package' offered by many insurance companies will have many holes that a true arborist policy would include. 

Admittedly, after the above is said, you may find yourself as a new operation with assumedly minimal arboricultural training (i.e. certification in tree hazard assessment, etc.) having a difficult time locating an insurer that will sell you proper coverage without your capacity to convince them that you are an 'expert' in the field of work.

Best of wishes for success in your endeavours!

Scott


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## insuranceman

*Insurance*

Don't know if you already solved your problem but the best market
I know for smaller companies is National Insurance Programs (NIP- Land Pro/Tree Pro). Contact them for a local broker to place coverage for you. Good Luck.


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## Steve-Maine

Pinksaw
Give me a private e-mail and I'll tell you the name of a company right here in Portland that used to write my polices until I sold out. What ever you buy make sure it states all the services you do. Years ago I was doing a landscape job on a local golf coarse and dug up an large electric line that was dead. I was bonded and insuranced by one company. Even had my back-hoe covered and they said I was doing excavation instead of landscaping. I asked them how you plant 25' spruce trees without digging with back-hoe and they couldn't answer that. I paid an extra charge to have coverage put on so they would pay claim. I had been with them over 25 years and of coarse dropped them the next year.


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## toscottm

*Arranging Insurance: Operations Description*

Steve from Maine,

Your point about ensuring that your insurer fully understands what you are doing is very well put. I would suggest however that if the 'digging' you were doing was incidental to landscape work then the insurer wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in trying to deny your claim and you shouldn't have had to pay an additional premium. If however your excavation work had been something like taking a side job to prepare a septic bed just because you had the equipment handy, then you could be in trouble. 

Anyway, your point is typical. Often insurers don't understand a business operation well enough to properly consider all that is involved and then they try to blame the client for what they didn't know. As I suggest, if what you are doing is an inherent, normal part of the work, it is their fault that they didn't understand it. Here in Canada, a big name insurer (bigger in the U.S. - initials are S F) often insures a landscaper with the operations description 'Landscaping including tree planting excluding excavation'. I don't know how they expect the tree to be planted, perhaps just setting it on top of the ground and then piling soil around it. I've seen this at least 50 times and it is mindboggling. Additionally, someone that doesn't understand a business, really can't help provide constructive input such as underwriting or claims advocacy that benefits the client. This is actually where I blame clients. As an insurance broker, I often find clients who are 'loyal' to the broker who helped them arrange their first car insurance when they first became licensed. This is the kind of broker that does home & car insurance all day long. Later, the client starts a business and runs to this same guy for the insurance while ignoring the opportunity to deal with 'experts'. Often the broker actually 'thinks' he knows what he is doing and tries to help the client. The insurance industry is full of people who don't know what they don't know. Either through greed (we are typically paid on commission), ego or other poor motivational factors, many of us will take whatever business comes our way. The lesson, do business with someone that understands your business, not just the guy who insures your house and car and tells funny jokes and buys you a beer when you see him around town. Choose someone who actually specializes and knows your industry! 

For arboriculture work, in the United States, TreePro or ArborMax (see: www.arbormax.com) are specialty plans and in Canada, the only plan with exclusive focus on arboriculture is TREESURE (see: www.treesure.ca) as good examples of true 'specialists'.

Best wishes!

Scott


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## Silentmtn3

*Farm Bureau Insur*



treeguy347 said:


> I got my insurance through Farm Bureau. When I first started, they had no problems writing a policy, even being greener than a new leaf in the spring. They're still the most reasonable for me. As far as comp is concerned, I pay $26 per $100. We get a discount for having a written, documented and organized safety program (Tailgate Safety).



Treeguy, I too have my biz insurance thru farm bureau, who did they underwrite your biz insur thru? Mine went thru a co called IFC, but I couldn't find anyone to write me a wk comp policy for tree operations.

Silentmtn3


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## husabud

Arbormax. Maybe a little expensive depending on your coverages and experience, but focused on the tree professional. I pay just over $2,000 for 1 mil/ 3 mil liability alone. Join TCIA, that may help too.


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## ducaticorse

B-Edwards said:


> I dont want to hi-jack this thread , maybe this question will also help the author. What are the rates you guys are paying for workmans comp? Our's is a little over $44.00 on the hundred. Is that a bad rate or average? Maybe several of us get together and get a Coop rate?


 
Sounds like CA to me, and makes me want to PUKE... In MA I'm paying $14.50 per hundo in payroll.....


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## ducaticorse

husabud said:


> Arbormax. Maybe a little expensive depending on your coverages and experience, but focused on the tree professional. I pay just over $2,000 for 1 mil/ 3 mil liability alone. Join TCIA, that may help too.


 
Arbormax has minimums, like their comp is a min of $15K premium.. i use arbormax for my liability.. Also, they are very limited in areas (states) that they cover in.


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## TreeClimber57

jsdogs said:


> If you own the business you can get covered and exclude yourselves as the owners. You can purchas coverage at the ins. co's minimum fee as they base their rates on payroll and you have none.



Our insurance companies base upon what you bill customer.. not on payroll. Could be different in various areas though.


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## CouldChuck

*Insurance*



ducaticorse said:


> Arbormax has minimums, like their comp is a min of $15K premium.. i use arbormax for my liability.. Also, they are very limited in areas (states) that they cover in.


 
I have a agency that has 3 different tree programs they write for. They literally give me a better rate every year it seems. They told me the other day when I met with them for my renewal they are getting together a captive program for only tree care professionals and the landscape industry. Heres a link to their website. I think they write in all states.

http://http://www.larsonsinsurance.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=53

Check them out I seriously recommend them. I have been with them for over 8 years now.


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## Silentmtn3

woodchux said:


> You're going to have a hard time getting insurance with out at least 2 years under your belt. I doubt the Hartford would cover a new business.


 
When I first got into this business, The Hartford told me that until I was in the business for a minimum of five years, I wasn't even eligible to do business with them.


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## Iustinian

*I disagree*



woodchux said:


> You're going to have a hard time getting insurance with out at least 2 years under your belt. I doubt the Hartford would cover a new business.


 
I disagree, I obtained my insurance from Pekin to do removals, trimming, and even chemical spraying the week after I called for the quote, and that was before I started my business -- I did not starting working on my own until I had confirmation of my insurance.


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## mattfr12

Once you have insurance for a while it gets easier to get. i think our last policy was actually written by an underwriter for state auto.


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## mattfr12

ducaticorse said:


> Sounds like CA to me, and makes me want to PUKE... In MA I'm paying $14.50 per hundo in payroll.....



Ya its high everywhere i think i finally don't have to use the state anymore I'm done with my minimum time with workers comp through the state. But in pa you have to guess how much your gonna pay your guys then pay them up front and its 3,000 per 20,000.00 in wages if i remember correctly. i think last year i spent over 10k in comp fee's. they go through your payroll at the end of the year and add or subtract deepening on your original estimate of wages your going to be paying.

Now my insurance agent writes it and theirs a big difference especially if you haven't had any claims in 2 years.


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## jester666

toscottm said:


> For arboriculture work, in the United States, TreePro or ArborMax (see: www. arbormax.com ) are specialty plans and in Canada, the only plan with exclusive focus on arboriculture is TREESURE (see: Sinclair Cockburn Financial Group) as good examples of true 'specialists'.



Just an FYI, it`s not .com.

I went to the .com site and couldn't figure out why we were plugging another tree company when we were discussing insurance.


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## Jaaneti

I know this is kinda old and off topic but my family had some problems with Surgeon (Arborist) Insurance searching,
We only had 2 workers who needed a and the easiest way was this site it's easy and really saves some time and money.

You are not allowed to post direct links to businesses that are not site sponsors here on Arborist Site.


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## Toddppm

smells spammey


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## Treefellah

In Canada I know there is a specialty insurance plan called Arborguard because I am insured with them and they are excellent. You can find them with a quick google search.


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## ChoppyChoppy

B-Edwards said:


> I dont want to hi-jack this thread , maybe this question will also help the author. What are the rates you guys are paying for workmans comp? Our's is a little over $44.00 on the hundred. Is that a bad rate or average? Maybe several of us get together and get a Coop rate?


$0.

Hired hands are contractors who bill me based on their work.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding

If they use your tool and don't set their own hours the law considers them employees regardless of your arrangement. You better hope they like you enough to not sue or get some workers comp.


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## ChoppyChoppy

BuckmasterStumpGrinding said:


> If they use your tool and don't set their own hours the law considers them employees regardless of your arrangement. You better hope they like you enough to not sue or get some workers comp.



The guys that help out aren't employees. I don't set their hours, nor do they use any equipment, it's just labor.

Also I fall under agriculture and the labor laws are a bit different.


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