# ~60cc shootout 962 Efco vs 361 Stihl vs 036 Stihl



## timberwolf (Mar 9, 2011)

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So far the 361 is the lightest and highest reving but slowest cutting (best time of 5 cuts).

962 Efco 13.5 lb 3.56 seconds
Stihl 036 13.4 lb 3.41 seconds
Stihl 361 13.0 lb 3.68 seconds


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## angelo c (Mar 9, 2011)

not too surprising, I always favored the 360 to the 361. Just felt better to me probably the handle is where the most weight is traded off. That handle on the 361 is not too tough looking for me. 

no experience with the 362 yet... (really liked Spikes 562 though...)


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## timberwolf (Mar 9, 2011)

Yep the 361 does sport more plastic, handle and pull start, no more nice elasto-start.

Mostly I find the torque the disapointment with the 361 most noticable when running one right after the other, it certainly does take a lighter hand to keep it up in the power band.

Efco has a little thin plastic cover over the kill switch and plastic primer bulb is pretty cheep, I can see thoes being a problem over the long haul. Also I am not a fan of the outboard clutch, PITA to change bar and chain or sprockets.


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## mtngun (Mar 9, 2011)

Good data, TW.


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## angelo c (Mar 9, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> Yep the 361 does sport more plastic, handle and pull start, no more nice elasto-start.
> 
> Mostly I find the torque the disapointment with the 361 most noticable when running one right after the other, it certainly does take a lighter hand to keep it up in the power band.


 
on a side note...how is the world is there three bone stock saws over a TW's place at the same time....

"houston...we have a problem"...


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## timberwolf (Mar 9, 2011)

I asure you it is a temporary condition which I am fixing to cure. Starting with the 036.


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks for the vid TW. One question, was the 361 new? they wake up with some time on them.


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## angelo c (Mar 9, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> I asure you it is a temporary condition which I am fixing to cure. Starting with the 036.


 
glad to hear things are ok up that way...I was going to call a neighbor to check in on ya...



hoping for an "after" vid as well.


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 9, 2011)

angelo c said:


> not too surprising, I always favored the 360 to the 361. Just felt better to me probably the handle is where the most weight is traded off. That handle on the 361 is not too tough looking for me.
> 
> no experience with the 362 yet... (really liked Spikes 562 though...)


 
The 362 will out gun a 361 pretty easily, and a Dolmar 6400 would eat them all.


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## indiansprings (Mar 9, 2011)

It doesn't surprise me on the performance of the Efco. The 156 I have run for almost 3 season is so close to the 361 in performance it's not funny. I haven't timed cuts but the 156 is really close. Both saws are MM and well broke in.lol

It will be real interesting in how they do after modding. Look forward to the results.
Thank you for the post!


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## timberwolf (Mar 9, 2011)

None of the saws appear to have any significant amount of time on them. 036 maybe a couple tanks.


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## timberwolf (Mar 9, 2011)

I was surprized to see the newer style piston in an 036, must have been right near when they came out with the 360.

Casting looked nice all around.

I think this muffler cover was made by a guy here on the site, will put it on. I'd rather the outlets be a little shorter and bigger and pointed to the side, but each to their own. As the saw will be built for torque chaising top end with a larger outlet area is less importaint anyway.


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## epicklein22 (Mar 9, 2011)

Nice thread T-wolf! We have a 360 and 361 at work, the 360 is faster and has a nice powerband. It seems you test proves that.

However, as you probably know, the mm does wonders for the 361. My personal 361 is as fast as my 262xp. 

Can't wait to see the end results!


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## albert (Mar 9, 2011)

Nice comparison, I perfer the 036 myself, bought mine in 92 or 93 and have had 3 361's and all 3 are gone. Like mentioned, the 361 needs a muffler job to run right. Never ran the efco but seems to do pretty good.


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## rwoods (Mar 9, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> So far the 361 is the lightest and highest reving but slowest cutting (best time of 5 cuts).
> 
> 962 Efco 13.5 lb 3.56 seconds
> Stihl 036 13.4 lb 3.41 seconds
> Stihl 361 13.0 lb 3.68 seconds


 
Curious - which has the best average of the five cuts (or better yet throw out the highs and lows and which has the better average of three cuts)? I have a 036Pro and get the itch from time to time (actually everytime I visit my Stihl dealer) to get a new saw although there is nothing wrong with my old saw. Ron


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## Anthony_Va. (Mar 9, 2011)

I look forward to seeing the aftermath of the port work with these three. Another awesome T-Wolf thread.

With only a 2/10 sec. spread between the three, it's really hard to say right now that either are faster than the other two. I'll stick with the 361. I think the porting will really make her shine.


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## nmurph (Mar 9, 2011)

i wish there was a 262 thrown into the mix. you see so much about them not leaving much on the table as far as porting goes. it would be interesting to see a master have his way with one.


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## parrisw (Mar 9, 2011)

Subscribing! Can't wait to see more.


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## promac850 (Mar 9, 2011)

Where's the Dolmar 6400? 



Me likey Dolmars. 


Out of the three you're testing, I would get the Efco. They're one of my more favorite brands... I am not saying Stihls or Huskys or other well made saws are bad, I just prefer the Efco. I can't wait to see the results of the port work!


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## parrisw (Mar 9, 2011)

I got a mint 262 I could send TW, too add to the shootout!!! :wink2::msp_drool:


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Mar 9, 2011)

subscribing. Very interested in the Efco porting as that is the one I use the most.


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## timberwolf (Mar 10, 2011)

I will look over the videos and see if there is much difference in the averages. Though I tend to not use the averages much for cut times. The 361 actually missed a couple times in one cut, hit a little inclusion in the wood in a couple other cuts with the 036, bogged the 361 on the first couple cuts with times over 4 seconds and that stuff would throw the results off. With that sort of stuff I am finding it better to pick the best time out of a series of cuts.

No doubt the 361 would fall further behind in bigger or harder wood, heavy hands or more aggressive chain.


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## SawTroll (Mar 10, 2011)

promac610 said:


> Where's the Dolmar 6400?
> 
> 
> ...... :



Well out of that weight class! :smile2:


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## weimedog (Mar 10, 2011)

Got my attention as well. Very curious about your results with the Efco.


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## Terry Syd (Mar 10, 2011)

Subscribing. 

Its going to be interesting to see what you come up with on the 361. If the saw is already prone to bogging with hard wood, aggressive chain or a heavy hand, then it will likely require a different approach to porting than the other two. That information may be of interest to many of the wood cutters (versus cookie cutting racers).


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## timberwolf (Mar 10, 2011)

Yes, each saw is very different design wise and the goals a little different too.

On the 361 I have seen a couple different castings, one is higher compression with lower exhaust port the other lower compression with higher exhaust, each need to be ported differently. 066/660 is much the same deal, the older cylinders could stand a little more exhaust durration, but on the new cylinders raising the exhaust will kill them both for torque and compression.

036 needs to be built for torque and tough for production cutting. 962 would do well to gain some RPM for smaller softer wood and can be made pretty hot performance wise. 361 will depend on which jug it has, but it can be made fairly hot too, but might get subject to hotter weather and more questionable fuel.


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## StihlBoy440 (Mar 10, 2011)

I have MS360Pro that I ported several years ago and it is my favorite among my few saws, I never have ran a 361 but it seems I am not missing alot. Interested and subscribed to this thread, cant wait to see further progress and the end results!


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## Mad Professor (Mar 10, 2011)

Throw an old Homie super XL into the mix to see how far ahead we have come.


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## PLAYINWOOD (Mar 10, 2011)

Do you still have a 359 Brian?


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## Tzed250 (Mar 10, 2011)

036 was my first big saw. I miss that saw still...always thought it was the total package.


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## timberwolf (Mar 10, 2011)

Yep that 359 is still my goto saw. Might have a little air leak to fix on it as I never did replace that plastic intake boot clamp.


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## mtngun (Mar 10, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> 962 would do well to gain some RPM for smaller softer wood and can be made pretty hot performance wise.


Do you view the Efco's long, crooked intake tract as a significant problem ? Is the carb big enough ?


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## timberwolf (Mar 10, 2011)

Actually, I was kind of thinking the intake was fairly short and direct, at least compared to the 361. Also the intake has quite a bit of axiial angle which should be good for high RPM power.


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## timberwolf (Mar 10, 2011)

361 intake is quite restrictive, a good bit smaller than the diamiter of a penny at the intake flange.


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## promac850 (Mar 10, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> 361 intake is quite restrictive, a good bit smaller than the diamiter of a penny at the intake flange.


 
You gonna bore that out, right?


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## J.W Younger (Mar 10, 2011)

subscribing


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## timberwolf (Mar 17, 2011)

Just finnishing up the 036, shaved the base down 0.037 and piston poped up 0.025 aiming to have the squish between 0.018 and 0.020 in.

Couple pics as I was working along at it, port timing kept low with the goal of keeping lots of torque.

Also took the venturi out about 1.5mm and cleaned up a few rough edges.

Will video it tomorrow.


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## mtngun (Mar 17, 2011)

Beautiful craftsmanship as always, TW.


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## rooster68 (Mar 17, 2011)

cant wait to see the vid.just ported my first saw week my 036pro and am satisfied(for now)maybe a pop up next?thank you for posting stuff like this, it helps me as a beginner learn more..thanx


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## Oldsawnut (Mar 17, 2011)

036 is one of my fav stihl saws... I actually like the older 36's for power over the 36 pro.. Filtration and other things are much nicer on the pro models tho..


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## timberwolf (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm thinking the 361 and 962 are going to be hard pressed to beet the 360 ported.

Pulling 8 pin 3/8 very nicely with torque to spare, last cut was pushed.

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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 18, 2011)

Myself, I would put my money on the 361. I bought a woods port 361 Ed did for KFtree some years ago. It would easily beat my EHP 7900 and KS 670.


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## porsche965 (Mar 18, 2011)

Great thread, subscribed.


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## NPKenny (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm looking forward to the details on the 361. Please, keep up with the detailed pictures like normal.


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## RiverRat2 (Mar 18, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Myself, I would put my money on the 361. I bought a woods port 361 Ed did for KFtree some years ago. It would easily beat my EHP 7900 and KS 670.



I'm Suscribed,,,, I don't know,,, that 036 looks pretty tough to me,,,


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## Anthony_Va. (Mar 19, 2011)

RiverRat2 said:


> I'm Suscribed,,,, I don't know,,, that 036 looks pretty tough to me,,,


 
I agree, looks really strong. TW does awesome work. 

I also look forward to seeing the 361 finished. I'm betting it will be a screamer too.


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## thomasjf (Mar 19, 2011)

*Great thread TW*

Good you take the time to share your work and ideas. As always, I expect to learn a bit from your teachings. Thanks a bunch. 
I have had a new untouched green Efco 962(John Deere CS62)sitting here for a couple of years now so this will be most interesting.


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 19, 2011)

*Porting ?*

TW, we see how the 036 works at your place. How much of a performance loss or gain would you expect if it was run here or west coast? Are different #'s needed for different locations?

Would the running order of the 3 saws be different here than at your place?


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## timberwolf (Mar 19, 2011)

Should be no difference, elevation is within a few hundred feet, climate simmilar enough.

Will get some pictures up of the 361 and 962 innards later today.


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 19, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> Should be no difference, elevation is within a few hundred feet, climate simmilar enough.
> 
> Will get some pictures up of the 361 and 962 innards later today.


 
What about the Atlantic, any effect? I know from racing I have had vast performance swings from coast to inland. When I used to race up in Doaktown (1000 km away, away from the ocean) I couldn't touch their saws. When they came down here the results were reversed.

Took Ed 3 trys to get a 346 to run right here. What ran great at his place was a dud here. The last 346 he did for my BIL was closer to 026 #'s, runs great here.


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 19, 2011)

TW, anything to gain using the Jonsered piston?


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## weimedog (Mar 19, 2011)

Elevation, Air Pressure (Barometric Pressure), Moisture/dew point, Air Temperature..all interrelated and affect performance. Guess think of it as those things that change air density & temperature are going to have an impact of performance. Bet the weather condition had more impact than 200ft altitude. I have more than 200ft elevation change on my place right here on this hill top!


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 19, 2011)

I know I can get a 1500 rpm shift from 3:00pm to 6:00pm when those old pea soup thick fog banks are rolling in.
One thing that is certain, " the ocean ain't the prairies".


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## J.W Younger (Mar 19, 2011)

weimedog said:


> Elevation, Air Pressure (Barometric Pressure), Moisture/dew point, Air Temperature..all interrelated and affect performance. Guess think of it as those things that change air density & temperature are going to have an impact of performance. Bet the weather condition had more impact than 200ft altitude. I have more than 200ft elevation change on my place right here on this hill top!


I've wondered about being a dealer and setting up a saw,say on a hot humid summer day.How can you pull it off when the baro is bumping up near 31 in winter and that saw is being worked hard with that same mixture.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 19, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> What about the Atlantic, any effect? I know from racing I have had vast performance swings from coast to inland. When I used to race up in Doaktown (1000 km away, away from the ocean) I couldn't touch their saws. When they came down here the results were reversed.
> 
> Took Ed 3 trys to get a 346 to run right here. What ran great at his place was a dud here. The last 346 he did for my BIL was closer to 026 #'s, runs great here.


 
Sounds more like a tuning issue.

A long long time ago I ran karts and if an engine was quick at sea level, either piston ported, rotary or reed depending on class it was quick at 4000' in the central tablelands if you tweaked the carb.

No matter where we went we'd be tuning heat to heat, morning to afternoon chasing the weather.


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## Stihl Crazy (Mar 19, 2011)

tdi-rick said:


> Sounds more like a tuning issue.
> 
> A long long time ago I ran karts and if an engine was quick at sea level, either piston ported, rotary or reed depending on class it was quick at 4000' in the central tablelands if you tweaked the carb.
> 
> No matter where we went we'd be tuning heat to heat, morning to afternoon chasing the weather.



I'm not new to the racing game. I always tuned them when I got there, to their air and chains to their wood, but never got the same performance I could get here. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother coming on here.


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## terry2tmd (Mar 19, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> What about the Atlantic, any effect? I know from racing I have had vast performance swings from coast to inland. When I used to race up in Doaktown (1000 km away, away from the ocean) I couldn't touch their saws. When they came down here the results were reversed.
> 
> Took Ed 3 trys to get a 346 to run right here. What ran great at his place was a dud here. The last 346 he did for my BIL was closer to 026 #'s, runs great here.


 
I deal with this all the time, Escalante sets at 5800 almost a perfect mile above sea level, but most of the wood I cut is at between 7000 & 10,000. I tune my saw to run in town, and retune it to get wood, they won't even Idle sometimes in the woods.
TW thanks for shareing, I happen to be a huge fan of yours!!!!
You got me wondering though is the intake boot on my ms391 looks like the 361's.does. If so there is a couple rpms I could pick up in the cut real easy. Where do I get a good degree wheel? I will ask that question, and then do the research I need to work my ports out.
Hey is there a thread on mapping ports with a degree wheel?


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## mtngun (Mar 19, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Where do I get a good degree wheel?


Print this out at a size that matches a CD -- you may have to scale the print settings, I think I used an 80% scale. Then glue it to an old CD.

Several threads on setting up a degree wheel, the hard part is finding TDC accurately. Get started and then ask questions as they arise.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 19, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> [snip]
> Sometimes I wonder why I even bother coming on here.



?? If you make a statement expect to be questioned.

In my experience, if a two stroke is ported for maximum grunt it shouldn't matter a damn where it's run, if it's tuned it'll be quick and the performance difference relative to the opposition will be the same if it's tuned properly.

What you are saying is the first I've ever heard of that happening, but hey, I'm here to learn just like everyone else and If someone comes along with a plausible explanation I'm all ears.


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## terry2tmd (Mar 19, 2011)

mtngun said:


> Print this out at a size that matches a CD -- you may have to scale the print settings, I think I used an 80% scale. Then glue it to an old CD.
> 
> Several threads on setting up a degree wheel, the hard part is finding TDC accurately. Get started and then ask questions as they arise.


 
Thanks man!!!! The CD thing sounds like a winner, finding TDC would be similar to finding it when you degree in a cam only a magnetic based dial caliper wouldn't work, but you could mabybe some how clamp it to the front handle bar somehow, just have to improvise, I guess


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## terry2tmd (Mar 19, 2011)

Look's like Harbor Freight has the dial indicator kit that would be perfect for finding TDC.


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## parrisw (Mar 19, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Look's like Harbor Freight has the dial indicator kit that would be perfect for finding TDC.


 
Don't do it that way. You'll never get it perfect.


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## terry2tmd (Mar 19, 2011)

parrisw said:


> Don't do it that way. You'll never get it perfect.


 
You use the solid stop thing? Maybe It would help if I told you what I am doing. The 394 cylinder I am running is ported and runs like crazy I want to see what changes were made to the cylinder to get this kind of power.


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## parrisw (Mar 20, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> You use the solid stop thing? Maybe It would help if I told you what I am doing. The 394 cylinder I am running is ported and runs like crazy I want to see what changes were made to the cylinder to get this kind of power.


 
Yes positive piston stop is the only way. TZ250 did an excellent thread on it.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 20, 2011)

parrisw said:


> Yes positive piston stop is the only way. TZ250 did an excellent thread on it.


 

Ditto.

It's fast and dead accurate.

Remember there's always a small amount of piston dwell at TDC, using a positive stop and rotating the crank forwards and back and splitting the difference gets TDC absolutely dead on.

We used to use a dial indicator for ignition timing a two stroke, but then it's only really useful with a centralised spark plug hole.


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## terry2tmd (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks guys I will give it a shot. Ever feel like a kid at xmas waiting for TW to post again been checking this every day he's got us cliff hung.


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## terry2tmd (Mar 20, 2011)

Just got thinking about this, every engine has TDC Dwell, the trick is how long it is, and how it affects the combustion cycle, that's why you map. You also have a certain amount of BDC Dwell, I can see how the solid stop would be faster and cheaper, as well as accurate, but I was taught to do it on V-8's with a dial indicator, it is pretty much the same thing I like your way because it uses the K.I.S.S. principal.


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## parrisw (Mar 20, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Just got thinking about this, every engine has TDC Dwell, the trick is how long it is, and how it affects the combustion cycle, that's why you map. You also have a certain amount of BDC Dwell, I can see how the solid stop would be faster and cheaper, as well as accurate, but I was taught to do it on V-8's with a dial indicator, it is pretty much the same thing I like your way because it uses the K.I.S.S. principal.


 
Even on car engines I use a piston stop.


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## JJay03 (Mar 20, 2011)

Love the look of that 036 and sounds good too.


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## 8433jeff (Mar 20, 2011)

Subscribed.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is the 962, but waiting for a new piston... More on that later.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

More 962 pics.

I wish I could say a new piston was needed due to the casting flaw in the pin boss, but it was caused by a flat washer that I must have dropped in the when messing with a PITA spring clamp on the intake. :mad2: :bang:

Fortunatly it locked up at idle and cylinder was ok.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

962 very narrow stock esp when considdering how wide the skirt is.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

More ports

Muffler mod was quite simple given there was a deflector shield on the front of the muffler making for an easy hole and screen behind it. I'll get a pic of that later.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Here is the 361


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

More 361


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

361 cont...


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

361 muffler


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## mtngun (Apr 1, 2011)

Great pics and impressive work as always, TW.

I presume the stock 962 piston is on the left. What's the piston on the right ?






This pic is the stock 361 transfers, though it was mixed in with the 962 pics.





And your modded 361 transfers. What is your scheme on this kind of mod to the lower transfers -- it's increasing the base volume, but also shortening the duct length. Are you OK with the increased base volume on this saw ?





The edge of the skirt lines up with the transfer duct on the bottom of the pic, but not the top. Does it matter if the edge of the skirt lines up with the transfer duct ?





Any difference in the base compression between the 3 saws ?


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Actually the port does line up with the skirt down where the window is, it is just hidden in the undercut area.

036 is a few cc tighter on the base and the 962 a little bigger.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Johnsred 625 Piston on the right. Nice piston, but not enough room in the lower transfers to make it work.


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## weimedog (Apr 1, 2011)

Have question on the intakes with rubber boots. Assume you can open both the boot and the carb some percentage additional x-sectional area from stock. How much do you really gain by widening an intake port past the percentage x-sectional area gained by opening the boot and carb? Is the theoretical gain based on the x-sectional area change as it approaches the crank case? If you can't really change the carb or boot x-sectional area much, does it make sense to widen the intake much vs. add some intake duration?


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## mtngun (Apr 1, 2011)

weimedog said:


> Have question on the intakes with rubber boots. Assume you can open both the boot and the carb some percentage additional x-sectional area from stock.


Sometimes you can install a bigger boot from another model, but otherwise, there is not much you can do to mod rubber boots.



> How much do you really gain by widening an intake port past the percentage x-sectional area gained by opening the boot and carb? Is the theoretical gain based on the x-sectional area change as it approaches the crank case? If you can't really change the carb or boot x-sectional area much, does it make sense to widen the intake much vs. add some intake duration?


You need MOTA to answer those questions. :msp_w00t:

In general, yes it does help to enlarge the carb venturi and the intake port, even if the rest of the intake tract does not change.


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

361 came out about 0.1 slower than the 036, but there were a couple knots in the wood. Could go either way but the 036 does have more torque no question.

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## mtngun (Apr 1, 2011)

And the 962 ?


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Soon as I get a new piston.


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## madhatte (Apr 1, 2011)

Oh, this is good stuff. I am pleased and not at all surprised to see the 036 performing so well. Very curious about the Efco.


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## Anthony_Va. (Apr 1, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Oh, this is good stuff. I am pleased and not at all surprised to see the 036 performing so well. Very curious about the Efco.


 
I figured they would come out about the same. What is the difference in the engine between the two? I've wondered that for awhile.


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## timberwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Likely the biggest difference is the transfers, 036 is 2 port running higher velocity, 361 is 4 port and a little lower velocity. The 361 has more work done on it though to get to roughly the same performance. 361 is a bit more limited on exhaust port width with the location of the ring end pin.

I am going to run a tank of fuel through the 361 and see where the compression ends up, I may go for a little more compression on it yet.

I have a feeling the 962 is going to end up the fastest of the 3 saws.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 2, 2011)

TW, any thoughts on the 165 cyl that I sent up as compared to the 962 cyl?


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## timberwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Ports all look good and lots of potential there. But the combustion chamber offset to the exhaust side would worry me on detonation if pushing the compression up. 

I really am at a loss as to why they would have done that?

Correction *165*
View attachment 178407


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## husq2100 (Apr 2, 2011)

nice work as usual Brian, great to see more from you again. Say hi to Frank.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 2, 2011)

The 156 cyl is better. Has port layout similar to the 165 but centered com chamber like the 962. Stock with 16" bar the 156 will run with the 962 in small wood.


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## tdi-rick (Apr 2, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> Ports all look good and lots of potential there. But the combustion chamber offset to the exhaust side would worry me on detonation if pushing the compression up.
> 
> I really am at a loss as to why they would have done that?



That goes against all the theory I've read ?

The engineers must have had something in mind, but what ?


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## J.W Younger (Apr 2, 2011)

tdi-rick said:


> That goes against all the theory I've read ?
> 
> The engineers must have had something in mind, but what ?


Emmissions?


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## weimedog (Apr 2, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> But the combustion chamber offset to the exhaust side would worry me on detonation if pushing the compression up.
> 
> I really am at a loss as to why they would have done that?



Wonder if dropping the pressure on the exhaust side helps flush the combustion chamber..or wonder if it was about spark plug location driven by the external packaging (covers & other stuff)


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## 8433jeff (Apr 2, 2011)

The plug is in just about the same spot on a lot of saws, and at about the same angle. I think emissions played a part in it, but we may never know for sure.
The 165 cylinder will not bolt on the 156-962 chassis, is that correct?


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## timberwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

> if it was about spark plug location driven by the external packaging covers & other stuff



That would be about my best guess. 

In theory this chamber forward design would not be good for scavenging, would put more thrust on the intake skirt, and would be prone to detonating near the exhaust port.

By the looks of it the 165 should go on the 962 but did not try.


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## mtngun (Apr 2, 2011)

That is one weird chamber layout. :msp_confused:

Did you bother to CC the 165's chamber ? It looks kinda big. 



[/QUOTE]


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 2, 2011)

8433jeff said:


> The 165 cylinder will not bolt on the 156-962 chassis, is that correct?



The 165 is a direct bolt on to a 156 case. The difference is a 1 mm longer stroke on the 165.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 2, 2011)

weimedog said:


> or wonder if it was about spark plug location driven by the external packaging (covers & other stuff)



No, the 156/962 and 165 share the same top covers.


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## 8433jeff (Apr 3, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> The 165 is a direct bolt on to a 156 case. The difference is a 1 mm longer stroke on the 165.


 
SC, have you swapped a piston from one to other yet, do they have the same pin diameter and bearing?


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 3, 2011)

*part #$*

No I have not done it yet. Still gathering parts to finish the 165 that was run over. No alot of Efco parts saws around. It can be done easily if rod length is the same. With a stock squish of 0.045 there is a little room to play.

156
pin-50010115R-46mm bore
clip-007201198
bearing-3037014

962
pin-50010031R-48mm bore
clip-007201198
bearing-3037014

165
pin-50010031R-48mm bore
clip-007201198
bearing-3037014


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## 8433jeff (Apr 3, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> No I have not done it yet. Still gathering parts to finish the 165 that was run over. No alot of Efco parts saws around. It can be done easily if rod length is the same. With a stock squish of 0.045 there is a little room to play.
> 
> 156
> pin-50010115R-46mm bore
> ...


 
Thank you, as my distributor said it couldn't be done. No, there are not a lot of part saws around, and the ones I seen are crazy prices on the ebay. Which is weird, because if the part saws are crazy, one would think a running saw should also bring good money. There was a green 52 last week with a scored cylinder that brought over a hundred bucks shipped.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 5, 2011)

New 962 piston is in. Identical to a 165 piston expect for location of ring pins.


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## timberwolf (Apr 6, 2011)

I hope the new 962 piston has a ~34mm wide skirt like the original 962 did.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 6, 2011)

Yes it does. The 165 piston is 35mm at skirts.


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 9, 2011)

Sent the new piston yesterday.


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## Trigger-Time (Apr 9, 2011)

Tzed250 said:


> 036 was my first big saw. I miss that saw still...always thought it was the total package.



+1

I bought a new 036 in 1994, only trouble it would kick back
and rip the rope out of my hand HARD. More so than 064, 066
I would put it in the class with my 880 and 090 as far as ripping
the rope from my hand.


Another good thread TW!

TT


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 10, 2011)

The old 152 is still earning its keep. I am not logging as the spring highway weight restrictions are in place, but I am blocking firewood daily with the 152. Going to really test it soon. Putting it on my Norwood Portamill to make some 2x6 lumber.


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## terry2tmd (Apr 10, 2011)

I know nothing about Efco saws, this thread has been a great chance to check them out, with a opinion I can trust


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## Stihl Crazy (Apr 28, 2011)

Any updates TW?


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## timberwolf (Apr 28, 2011)

Made a new brass base gasket last night, squish height between the two pistons was off a few thou. Will put it back together tonight.

Not sure what I can do for video, camera is messed up.


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## mtngun (Apr 28, 2011)

TW, what kind of base compression did you find on the Efco ? I haven't measured mine yet.

Any other observations on the Efco design ? I thought the factory port timing was very conservative, easy to find gains, but otherwise it was a very straightforward design, nothing stopping it from keeping up with a Stihl if given the same timing.


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## timberwolf (Apr 28, 2011)

Off the top of my head the base was between the 036 and 361 in volume. I think the 962 should have the advantage over the stihls in performance, wider piston skirts and room to gain all the compression you would want.


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## jerrycmorrow (Apr 28, 2011)

subscribing. great thread


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## mtngun (May 3, 2011)

Well. The suspense is building. opcorn:


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## Officer's Match (May 3, 2011)

mtngun said:


> Well. The suspense is building. opcorn:


 
Agreed. My CS62 JD is excited to hear more.


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## StihlBoy440 (May 11, 2011)

going to bump this thread!


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## Stihl Crazy (May 11, 2011)

No word from TW since his last post. Probably gone on a fishing trip.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 16, 2011)

962 should be heading home this week.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 24, 2011)

Nothing yet.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 27, 2011)

Anyone have a phone # for TW? PM me if you do, thanks.


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## terry2tmd (May 28, 2011)

He mentioned his Video Camera was down, love to see this play out, but I also understand how things work.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 28, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> He mentioned his Video Camera was down, love to see this play out, but I also understand how things work.


 
When it comes I will video it. We may be heading into a postal strike here. Want to see if Brian will go with a courier.

Found his #.


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## sachsmo (May 28, 2011)

I bet the Efco is the fastest of the 3.

But bet TWs 359 smokes 'em all.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 30, 2011)

tdi-rick said:


> That goes against all the theory I've read ?
> 
> The engineers must have had something in mind, but what ?


 
The 165 and Efco TT963 cut off saw share this cylinder. May explain a few things.


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## terry2tmd (May 31, 2011)

Anybody herd from TW, having to wait for the postal service? Just couriously standing by.


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## Stihl Crazy (May 31, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Anybody herd from TW, having to wait for the postal service? Just couriously standing by.



Nothing yet. Leaving phone messages and PM's on various sites. Will try the phone again tonight.


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## mtngun (May 31, 2011)

I figure he is either in the hospital or else he went on one of his wilderness canoeing trips. Let's hope he turns up. I miss his posts.


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## terry2tmd (Jun 1, 2011)

Me too! Hope he catches a big one!!!


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## masculator (Jun 1, 2011)

timberwolf said:


> I was surprized to see the newer style piston in an 036, must have been right near when they came out with the 360.
> 
> Casting looked nice all around.
> 
> I think this muffler cover was made by a guy here on the site, will put it on. I'd rather the outlets be a little shorter and bigger and pointed to the side, but each to their own. As the saw will be built for torque chaising top end with a larger outlet area is less importaint anyway.


 
That piston looks about the same as what my 1991/2 034 ran. Also a damn good saw. I would have picked the 036 to be the champion of that bunch. I do not mind the oleo/efco saws but their filtration is a bit risky in what I cut, basically if the cover held on by the 2 screws distorts or doesn't seal you are sucking dirt and dust straight into the engine. All the old guys cutting softwood used to like them though.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 1, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Me too! Hope he catches a big one!!!


 
Hope he catches it soon. Only doing one race this year in 2 weeks time. Saw was to be here 3 weeks ago. No saw, no happy.


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## terry2tmd (Jun 2, 2011)

From what I've seen of his work I'm sure it will be worth wait.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 4, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> From what I've seen of his work I'm sure it will be worth wait.



Not if it is in his shop and not my hands on race day. That would mean another year to wait.

Time for plan B, port my own. Better to have an average saw in your hands rather than a fast saw 2000 kms away.


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## mtngun (Jun 4, 2011)

Did you ever hear from TW ? That's not like him to just disappear, he's very professional. Something must be wrong.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 4, 2011)

mtngun said:


> Did you ever hear from TW ? That's not like him to just disappear, he's very professional. Something must be wrong.



Can't get him. PM's, e-mails, phone calls, no answer.


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## parrisw (Jun 5, 2011)

Ya, hearing this has me a little worried. TW is one of the nicest guys going. Something has got to be wrong. I really hope he is ok.


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## blsnelling (Jun 5, 2011)

That's definately not the Brian we know.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 5, 2011)

Saws take a back seat if life throws you a few curves. Thats the way it should be. It will all work out.

Picked up a 359 yesterday, open to suggestions as to porting it.


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## J.W Younger (Jun 5, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Saws take a back seat if life throws your a few curves. Thats the way it should be. It will all work out.
> 
> Picked up a 359 yesterday, open to suggestions as to porting it.


If sums good mores better, air down jet up and advance the timing. 
I'm clueless and stuff.


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## Terry Syd (Jun 5, 2011)

If Brian gets back to this thread, perhaps he can give you some ideas about his 359. I hear it is a real powerhouse. He probably put in some 357 crank stuffers to go with the transfer work he did.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 5, 2011)

Recieved an E-mail, saw will go out by courier tomorrow.


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## parrisw (Jun 5, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Recieved an E-mail, saw will go out by courier tomorrow.


 
Sweet, good to hear.


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## Metals406 (Jun 5, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Recieved an E-mail, saw will go out by courier tomorrow.


 
What was the deal? Is he okay?


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## Oldsawnut (Jun 6, 2011)

Getting Drunk with Dean?


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 6, 2011)

Whatever Brian is dealing with he can address it if he wishes. If not thats ok too.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 8, 2011)

Got the saw today. Still have to do a muffler mod to it then try it out tomorrow.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 8, 2011)

Went back and read some of TW's posts. He said it has had a muffler mod. Boy its well hidden. I think I know were it is. Got to go look.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 8, 2011)

Sneaky. No sign whatsoever this saw has been touched. Must have alittle power, it has an 8 tooth 3/8 rim. Sleeper saw extreme.


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## dancan (Jun 8, 2011)

Enough of the teasing , where's the video ?:drooln:


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 8, 2011)

Its coming, after the 18th.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 9, 2011)

It starts and runs. 3/8 8 tooth seems no problem. Have to put some time on it, then let it sing.


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## terry2tmd (Jun 12, 2011)

Glad the saw came through, any word if Brian is OK?


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 13, 2011)

Nothing personal was discussed, other than that he has been extremely busy with little time to no time for saw work.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 15, 2011)

Here it is.

[video=youtube;C_IYT-TgN5c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_IYT-TgN5c[/video]


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## StihlBoy440 (Jun 15, 2011)

good running saw, was there any videos of the other saws?


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## terry2tmd (Jun 17, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Here it is.
> 
> [video=youtube;C_IYT-TgN5c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_IYT-TgN5c[/video]


 
That sucker is getting it! I think with that I need to look closer at EFCO. Thanks for the video kinda hard to believe that's a 60cc class saw with a primer bulb no less, kinda put's it in a sleeper class don't it. Congratulations you got one cool saw!


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## sunfish (Jun 17, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Here it is.



Yeah, that thing really is gettin it!!!:msp_smile:


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## Evanrude (Jun 17, 2011)

That thing IS gittin it! As always, I'm impressed by TW's work!


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## 8433jeff (Jun 17, 2011)

Yes, look closer at Efco. They are not without issue, as no brand is, chief among them, the 962/162 is no longer made, its now a 165, and those who have both would rather they still made the 62.

They are not the cheap junk some would claim. They are not cutting edge stuff, but in some sizes, compare very favorably.


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## nmurph (Jun 17, 2011)

8433jeff said:


> Yes, look closer at Efco. They are not without issue, as no brand is, chief among them, the 962/162 is no longer made, its now a 165, and those who have both would rather they still made the 62.
> 
> They are not the cheap junk some would claim. They are not cutting edge stuff, but in some sizes, compare very favorably.


 
Yes, my 156 is Cub Cadet colors is very comparable to a 359. I certainly would not hesitate to recommend them to someone who is interested in an Efco.


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## Officer's Match (Jun 17, 2011)

My EfcoDeere CS62 has ran very nicely. Only problem I have had thus far is the decompression button stuck open preventing it from starting once. Backed it out, sprayed it off with carb cleaner, and good as new. I really like it a lot. Might be fun to port 'n mm. And I actually like the green.


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## terry2tmd (Jun 18, 2011)

Personally I like the Green too! Good lookin saw!


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## terry2tmd (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks for a great thread I enjoyed it!


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## Officer's Match (Jun 18, 2011)

terry2tmd said:


> Personally I like the Green too! Good lookin saw!


 
Thanks, got it on the cheap on FeeBay, and have ran it pretty hard with good results.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 18, 2011)

Looking for a good 962 cylinder. New one here costs almost $400. 

Have a good woods port, now time to start building a full race version.


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## mtngun (Jun 18, 2011)

Stihl Crazy, didn't you have some sort of GTG you were taking the 962 to ?


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 18, 2011)

mtngun said:


> Stihl Crazy, didn't you have some sort of GTG you were taking the 962 to ?



Heavy rain postponed it.


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## slipknot (Jun 18, 2011)

so now we get to see videos? I guess postponed doesn't mean canceled does it..lol


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## Taxmantoo (Jun 18, 2011)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Looking for a good 962 cylinder. New one here costs almost $400.
> 
> Have a good woods port, now time to start building a full race version.



Wow, I paid about that much (each) for my CS62s. Too bad I sold 2/3 of them, at least they found good homes here at A/S. 

Funny I can't even remember who got them. Mike (rmsmoparman) got my spare CS36 but I don't think he liked it.



nmurph said:


> Yes, my 156 is Cub Cadet colors is very comparable to a 359. I certainly would not hesitate to recommend them to someone who is interested in an Efco.



Being a Cub Cadet fan (I have 125 and 149 tractors) I wish I had $299 when Amazon was selling out the 156s. I also wish Cub Cadet had sold a 162. But I have to admit the green ones look better than the white ones with a little Cub Yellow on them. I wish they were Cub Yellow with a little white on them.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 18, 2011)

slipknot said:


> so now we get to see videos? I guess postponed doesn't mean canceled does it..lol



I hope they still have it. I want to see how the 962 stacks up against the BB 357.


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## Officer's Match (Jun 18, 2011)

taxmantoo said:


> But I have to admit the green ones look better than the white ones with a little Cub Yellow on them. I wish they were Cub Yellow with a little white on them.



I cleaned mine up a bit today (rare, as this one doesn't get much TLC for some reason), I'll post some pics tomorrow. It does clean up well, as did my old Olympyc. Gotta' get a top cover and get that ol' beast running.


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## Taxmantoo (Jun 19, 2011)

taxmantoo said:


> But I have to admit the green ones look better than the white ones with a little Cub Yellow on them. I wish they were Cub Yellow with a little white on them.


 
Hmm, I could have sworn the Cub Cadet chainsaws, or at least some of the Cub Cadet chainsaws, were white/yellow. 

Here's a pic of a 5720 (56cc) that's yellow/black like Jonsereds are red/black.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jun 19, 2011)

Been checking some old videos. The 962 is about even with my BIL's woods port 346. It is approx 1 3/4-2 seconds behind my last 2 woods port 361's in 9x9 poplar.

Should improve with use.


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## nmurph (Jun 19, 2011)

taxmantoo said:


> Hmm, I could have sworn the Cub Cadet chainsaws, or at least some of the Cub Cadet chainsaws, were white/yellow.
> 
> Here's a pic of a 5720 (56cc) that's yellow/black like Jonsereds are red/black.


 
I was wondering when you posted the yellow/white comment. But I only have one of these and don't know much about the yellow history part of it, so I wasn't going to question you post.


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## jerrycmorrow (Jun 20, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> I cleaned mine up a bit today (rare, as this one doesn't get much TLC for some reason), I'll post some pics tomorrow. It does clean up well, as did my old Olympyc. Gotta' get a top cover and get that ol' beast running.


 
like your green saw but what's really got my curiosity piqued is the mystery olympic in your sig. what gives? got pix?


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## Officer's Match (Jun 20, 2011)

Got it from my brother-in-law who bought it new at the hardware store he worked in during the early/mid eighties. Missing the top cover and I don't know what it is. Robust build and a unique (to me anyway) AV setup. I only have "group" shots of it (betcha' you all haven't seen many PT Cruisers with six chainsaws in the back end):


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## jerrycmorrow (Jun 20, 2011)

Officer's Match said:


> Got it from my brother-in-law who bought it new at the hardware store he worked in during the early/mid eighties. Missing the top cover and I don't know what it is. Robust build and a unique (to me anyway) AV setup. I only have "group" shots of it (betcha' you all haven't seen many PT Cruisers with six chainsaws in the back end):


 
have you measured the bore? what size bar is it pulling? at first look it resembles the 264F Deluxe. depend on bore though. is there no label on the clutch cover? how much does it weigh (with the b&C)?


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## Officer's Match (Jun 20, 2011)

Really haven't done anything with it yet but set it in the corner of the garage. I'll get to it eventually.


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## jerrycmorrow (Jun 20, 2011)

if it is a 264F and it were tuned properly it'll really loosen some chips. good torque all across the range.


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## Officer's Match (Jun 20, 2011)

Jerry, I snapped a few more pics today since you are obviously knowledgeable and seem curious about the old Olympyc:


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## Officer's Match (Jun 20, 2011)

And a few more with a Stihl 028AV Super for size comparison:


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## 8433jeff (Jun 20, 2011)

PM me a serial number from the tag and maybe I can find out. May also have a top filter cover for it, NOS, I'd sell you cheap. I was thinking 264 also, maybe something a tad smaller now that we've seen it next to an 028.


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## jerrycmorrow (Jun 21, 2011)

cherry looking saw fer sure. the weight would really help


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## Officer's Match (Jun 21, 2011)

8433jeff said:


> PM me a serial number from the tag and maybe I can find out. May also have a top filter cover for it, NOS, I'd sell you cheap. I was thinking 264 also, maybe something a tad smaller now that we've seen it next to an 028.



I'll send you the serial in a minute or two. I appreciate the help. 



jerrycmorrow said:


> cherry looking saw fer sure. the weight would really help


 
I don't have any accurate scales at my disposal unfortunately.


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## slipknot (Sep 7, 2011)

So what ever happened at the GTG? Any videos of the efco?


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## Stihl Crazy (Sep 7, 2011)

It happens this Sat.


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## Stihl Crazy (Sep 7, 2011)

Here is a video of it.
[video=youtube;zcHtGmPIE_8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcHtGmPIE_8[/video]


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## slipknot (Sep 7, 2011)

Nice!! hey is that video of the efco 152 " in its second life" ported i'd assume? I love them efcos in orange.


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## Stihl Crazy (Oct 14, 2011)

Putting the Timberwolf 962 for sale. PM if interested.


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