# Hornady's 444 Marlin LEVERevolution ammo and black bear???



## NYH1

My friend went to Canada last week on a black bear hunt. He brought a 444 Marlin (22" barrel). He shot two black bear using Hornady's 265 gr. LEVERevolution ammo. He never got either bear. They both ran off. There was some blood sign, but not much. Both shots were under 50 yards. 

The first one was standing like it was quartering away, but wasn't moving. He hit it in the back of the ribs so it would go towards the off side front shoulder. The bear turned and was biting where it was hit. Then it just ran off. 

The second one was standing broad side. He shot it in the lung area. It dropped on the shot, got up and ran straight towards him and stopped about 10 yards away. He shot it again. It turned and ran off. 

They tried tracking them. There wasn't enough blood once the bears took off running. He couldn't believe it. Does anyone have experience with Hornady's LEVERevolution ammo and black bears. I personally think he should have used Hornady's 265 Flat Point Light Mag. ammo myself. What do you think.


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## weatherby guy

NYH1 said:


> My friend went to Canada last week on a black bear hunt. He brought a 444 Marlin (22" barrel). He shot two black bear using Hornady's 265 gr. LEVERevolution ammo. He never got either bear. They both ran off. There was some blood sign, but not much. Both shots were under 50 yards.
> 
> The first one was standing like it was quartering away, but wasn't moving. He hit it in the back of the ribs so it would go towards the off side front shoulder. The bear turned and was biting where it was hit. Then it just ran off.
> 
> The second one was standing broad side. He shot it in the lung area. It dropped on the shot, got up and ran straight towards him and stopped about 10 yards away. He shot it again. It turned and ran off.
> 
> They tried tracking them. There wasn't enough blood once the bears took off running. He couldn't believe it. Does anyone have experience with Hornady's LEVERevolution ammo and black bears. I personally think he should have used Hornady's 265 Flat Point Light Mag. ammo myself. What do you think.



While I wasn't there I really can't second guess what your buddy told you. While the hornady round would not be my first choice (I would either use buffalo bore/corbon/or most likely a reload). The 444 is not a bad gun to hunt black bears with, especially from a stand. Shot placement was most likely the culprit in his failed attempts to harvest a bruin. The organs in a black bear sit lower than those of the deer most hunters have experience hunting. Many hunters choose to break the bear down by shooting them through both shoulders. If your friend only hit one lung it would explain why the bear ran off. A double lung hit will kill almost 100 percent of the time. Although bears don't have tremendous fat in the spring, their coats are nearly perfect (long guard hairs.....assuming they haven't been rubbing). A high hit that did not pass through could explain the lack of blood. Sometimes between the fat and hair the holes can seal somewhat.......


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## Marco

265 has a rather low sectional density for bear, that tip causes the leverevolutions to expand rather easily also. Hardcast lead would be better, over 300 if the rifles twist rate will allow, the early Marlins had a slower twist rate that might have trouble getting a heavy bullet to fly straight.


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## NYH1

weatherby guy, I wasn't there either. I know that he is one of the best shooters I personally know. He was at ground level when he shot both bears. I haven't been at the plant the last few days so I haven't talked to him. I should see him tonight. I'll ask were he was aiming. 

Marco, The rifle is his best friends. Who actually bought it from me. I bought it brand new in 2002. I shot a box of ammo through it, cleaned it and put it in the back of the gun safe. I sold it to him in 2006. I just didn't us it. I don't know which twist it has.


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## ShoerFast

Slow bullets just don't expand as well as something with a little zip, 243's & 257's are a fair black-bear caliber. 444's are more for bone damage/ guide back-up gun then a primary hunter IMO.

But this dose not sound like as much of a caliber problem as it is a tracking / waiting problem?

Could this be a problem with giving the bear a chance to settle down and die, or were there perused immediately?

Bears have this thing that can make them go on very little blood-pressure, sort of what it takes to go into a deep hibernation. If there perused, even with very little blood pressure they can keep moving.

Another problem with tracking bears, there fat and hide can hold in a lot of blood, they just don't leak like a deer , and a shot placed high can hold all the blood inside the body cavity, hard to track if your only looking for blood?

Insted of sounding like a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" post, did your friend enjoy his hunt? As that is what really counts.

If things always worked out, we would have to call it "shooting" and stop calling it "hunting"!


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## KMB

ShoerFast said:


> If things always worked out, we would have to call it "shooting" and stop calling it "hunting"!



+1 

Kevin


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## NYH1

ShoerFast said:


> Insted of sounding like a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" post, did your friend enjoy his hunt? As that is what really counts.


No not really. He is p*ssed that the guide wouldn't track either bear more then 125 to 150 yards from where he hit them. The guide said there were to many other hunters in the woods to go any farther. Both shots were under 50 yards. I can't say what range he sighted the rifle in at, other then he said he sighted in for this type of close range hunting. I'll ask him tonight if I see him where he was aiming and what range he sighted in at.


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## ShoerFast

NYH1 said:


> No not really. He is p*ssed that the guide wouldn't track either bear more then 125 to 150 yards from where he hit them. The guide said there were to many other hunters in the woods to go any farther. Both shots were under 50 yards. I can't say what range he sighted the rifle in at, other then he said he sighted in for this type of close range hunting. I'll ask him tonight if I see him where he was aiming and what range he sighted in at.



There is a good chance that the true "zero" would be very close to the same @ 150' , if sighted in at any distance. (not sure that anyone would "zero" a 444 at more then 100 yards?) As a guide, I have no idea why this guide did not find the bear for him? Your tip changes with attitude. But what also changes is how excited people get, a very good question is to ask were they think they hit it. Most know where the shot hit, some honestly say that have no clue, a bear biting at a good "bread-basket" hit, is a dead bear, the bear just don't know it yet!
It is a good practice to have your hunter shoot for you, gives you a place to start, and checks weapons for any sight change from shipping. I will not take a hunter out with out checking the "zero" if there hard-case traveled in an airplane,,,ever see the Samsonite courmishel with the gorilla tossing luggage around? Seems a moot point with bear over bait, but could have a problem?

A good hit with a 444 , if your going to take a "high" shot would be between the shoulder blades to take out the spine, about opposite were you would want massive tissue impact with your 243's & 257's type damage, to inflect shock and trauma to the cardo-system.


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## weatherby guy

ShoerFast said:


> There is a good chance that the true "zero" would be very close to the same @ 150' , if sighted in at any distance. (not sure that anyone would "zero" a 444 at more then 100 yards?) As a guide, I have no idea why this guide did not find the bear for him? Your tip changes with attitude. But what also changes is how excited people get, a very good question is to ask were they think they hit it. Most know where the shot hit, some honestly say that have no clue, a bear biting at a good "bread-basket" hit, is a dead bear, the bear just don't know it yet!
> It is a good practice to have your hunter shoot for you, gives you a place to start, and checks weapons for any sight change from shipping. I will not take a hunter out with out checking the "zero" if there hard-case traveled in an airplane,,,ever see the Samsonite courmishel with the gorilla tossing luggage around? Seems a moot point with bear over bait, but could have a problem?
> 
> A good hit with a 444 , if your going to take a "high" shot would be between the shoulder blades to take out the spine, about opposite were you would want massive tissue impact with your 243's & 257's type damage, to inflect shock and trauma to the cardo-system.



Bar none the best response to this post. I have hunted bears from both elevated stands as well as from the ground. The adrenaline is always there, however hunting from a tree always seems to allow the hunter more time to study the bear a bit more (bruin, sow, size...etc) in addition to waiting for a better shot. In many of my bear hunts (black bear) the action seems to come at last light. A hunter who is jacked up on adrenaline and not shooting a gun that is his own or has minimal trigger time in a 'last light' situation.....well it adds variables that work against the hunter. Again, I wasn't there and don't know all the facts, but with two wounded bears, it is most likely shot placement and nothing to do with the bullet/rifle combo.

Attaching a pic of my 2005 Spring Bear....not a black bear, but a bear that I spent 14 days living on the Alaskan Range (in a tent) looking for. The hunt 95% down time (glassing and enduring the wicked weather) and 5% pure intensity. I spotted this Bruin knocking over trees and eating the tops a few miles away. It took 5 hours on the evening of day 13 to get to where we thought the bear was laying <he moved on> and almost all of day 14 to spot and stalk him on an adjacent mountain face. An experience of a lifetime.


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## weatherby guy

ShoerFast said:


> Slow bullets just don't expand as well as something with a little zip, 243's & 257's are a fair black-bear caliber. 444's are more for bone damage/ guide back-up gun then a primary hunter IMO.
> 
> But this dose not sound like as much of a caliber problem as it is a tracking / waiting problem?
> 
> Could this be a problem with giving the bear a chance to settle down and die, or were there perused immediately?
> 
> Bears have this thing that can make them go on very little blood-pressure, sort of what it takes to go into a deep hibernation. If there perused, even with very little blood pressure they can keep moving.
> 
> Another problem with tracking bears, there fat and hide can hold in a lot of blood, they just don't leak like a deer , and a shot placed high can hold all the blood inside the body cavity, hard to track if your only looking for blood?
> 
> Insted of sounding like a "coulda, woulda, shoulda" post, did your friend enjoy his hunt? As that is what really counts.
> 
> If things always worked out, we would have to call it "shooting" and stop calling it "hunting"!



My friend ed shot this Beauty (580lbs 21inch B&C Skull) in Alberta last Spring. I thought he used a 12gauge with a quality slug (very solid choice for stand hunting). I was wrong.......you will notice the 444 that he is holding. Guides use rifles like 444/45-70's (375 H&H/416's for Grizz or other dangerous game) for the same reasons that many hunters use them......with solid shot placement they will anchor game with authority.


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## ShoerFast

weatherby guy said:


> My friend ed shot this Beauty (580lbs 21inch B&C Skull) in Alberta last Spring. I thought he used a 12gauge with a quality slug (very solid choice for stand hunting). I was wrong.......you will notice the 444 that he is holding. Guides use rifles like 444/45-70's (375 H&H/416's for Grizz or other dangerous game) for the same reasons that many hunters use them......with solid shot placement they will anchor game with authority.




Thanks for the pictures!  

There are some exciting hunts!

Never had to use it, but I carried a Redhawk and then latter a Blackhawk, both in .44M . 5 pounds and 4 pounds is still not 8 pounds, and anything getting closer should not be hard to hit! (if big eyes can still aim, underwear is replaceable) 

Had the fortune to guide a few Black Bear hunts, but have not since Colorado outlawed hunting over bait. It was standard to tell the hunter to wait till you get there before coming down from the stand. but never had a difficult bear to track, the season was early , before the fall leaves could hide a track/blood trial.

Just an FYI, and in-line with the thread, assisting anyone in a stand, have them sit just as they were when they shot, have them take the bolt out/action open and track were they took the shot, there will be cut hair in that spot, sometimes the length and color of the hair will tell were the shot hit. Or there will be a broken stick/twig/branch in-line with the rifle, exploding the bullet. (crouch down to the height the shot was to hit) The next thing is the hunter can direct you to the departure the game took, and examin it "off trail" till you can establish a good trend to the track with out stepping on the sign. Shreds of TP will mark sign if you have to back track to re-find sign. 

Next to the last resort, blood shines like a bike reflector on a real dark night and a good light, gas lanterns seem to light every spec of blood and tissue up. 

The last resort are birds, a Game Warden friend of mine calls meat eating birds his "deputies" as they will point out "everything" an a day or so.

Wanton Waste laws are far from truly being a sportsman, we owe it to the game to make every attempt to find it.


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## joesawer

To my way of thinking, once you put a bullet in something you are obligated to finish the job. What kind of a guide wouldn't track a wounded animal for more than 150 yards? I guess the same kind that would take a client somewhere that it wasn't safe to do so. 
Yeah I would be pi$$ed too.
It is possible that your friend was a victim of percentages. When I was much younger I had the good fortune to hunt or fish almost every day. Sometimes the hunting would almost seem like shooting and then all the sudden a seemingly well placed shot with a rifle that had been slamming them would turn into a long tracking experience. It is possible that this could happen twice in a row.


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## NYH1

weatherby guy said:


> A hunter who is jacked up on adrenaline *and not shooting a gun that is his own or has minimal trigger time* in a 'last light' situation.....well it adds variables that work against the hunter.


I tend to agree. In his defense though, he shot this rifle quite a bit before going on this trip. He also has a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem. (as do I) with the same sights on it that the 444 has. The 444 is a little heavier then the 35 Rem. but they feel about the same. 

Recoil was a non issue as well. We live and mostly hunt deer in the "shotgun only" part of the state. He has and uses Remington 870's in 20 and 12 gauge and also has and uses in the "rifle, shotgun OR muzzleloader" part of the state a Remington model 7600 Carbine in 30-06. I think he should have used his 7600 with a good 180 gr. bullet, that's just my opinion though. 

He was also on the ground and not in a tree stand for both shots.


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## NYH1

joesawer said:


> To my way of thinking, once you put a bullet in something you are obligated to finish the job. What kind of a guide wouldn't track a wounded animal for more than 150 yards? I guess the same kind that would take a client somewhere that it wasn't safe to do so.


I agree!




joesawer said:


> Yeah I would be pi$$ed too.
> It is possible that your friend was a victim of percentages. When I was much younger I had the good fortune to hunt or fish almost every day. Sometimes the hunting would almost seem like shooting and then all the sudden a seemingly well placed shot with a rifle that had been slamming them would turn into a long tracking experience. It is possible that this could happen twice in a row.


I don't think he was a victim of percentages. In my opinion, especially since I know him, and know the kind of hunter and shot he is. I think he put the bullets where he needed to put them. I think they opened up to fast or maybe even fragmented on impact. And I think the guide let him and the bears down! This is just my opinion.


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## Timberhauler

I've only killed one black bear in my whole 25 years of hunting,and I used a 30/06...But I used to hunt wild hogs alot down on a plantation in the lower part of Georgia.I bought a .444 just for hogs...That round will flat put an ass-whoopin' on a hog.It's been so long,I don't remember the grain of bullet I was using..It was just whatever Wal-Mart had on the shelf


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## NYH1

Timberhauler said:


> I've only killed one black bear in my whole 25 years of hunting,and I used a 30/06...But I used to hunt wild hogs alot down on a plantation in the lower part of Georgia.I bought a .444 just for hogs...That round will flat put an ass-whoopin' on a hog.It's been so long,I don't remember the grain of bullet I was using..It was just whatever Wal-Mart had on the shelf


I bought this rifle to hunt black bear and wild boar. I never did either and that's why I sold it. I was going to try Hornady's 265 gr. Flat Point Light Mag. ammo and see how that shot. I never did shoot that ammo. All I ever shoot in it was Remington's 240 gr. Core-Lokt. It was deer season and I figured I use the 444. I took it hunting once and only saw a doe. After that I went back to using my "ole faithful's", my 308 Win. and 35 Rem.


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## Cut4fun

Used to break bricks into dust with a marlin 444 for fun.


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## ShoerFast

Cut4fun said:


> Used to break bricks into dust with a marlin 444 for fun.


454 Cusull's are fun, if you set a gallon paint can or water can on a cinder block, the block brakes when the can is shot.


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## Timberhauler

A bit off subject,but my wife has a SIGP220 .45 auto she carried when she was working in plain clothes.She likes it because it's a single stack magazine and it's slim compared to her glock 22 she carries while in uniform.I don't care much for her collection of semi-auto's except for this one...I once stacked three bricks up,pyramid style and stood 50ft. back to see what this round would do.I aimed for the top brick,the bullet hit a little low,but it broke all three into many peices with just one shot.I know it's a heavy bullet with low velocity,I didn't think it had quite that much power...So with a .444 it's in some cases a heavier bullet with nearly three times the powder charge.With proper shot placement I would think it would bring down any animal on the planet.


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## joesawer

"You want to let a lot of air in and a lot of blood out." Elmer Kieth
I don't know anything about the hornady bullet in question, but new and improved designs come and go at an incredible rate. 
The tried and true has something to be said for it. It is still around because it works.
The Remington core lokt bullets are considered old news now days but when they where new and Fancy and not trusted, I remember an article about some one taking 180 gr. core lokt 30/06 to Alaska and shooting grizzly bears as a test. They reported that it went through them like a hot knife through butter. (I know a 30/06 is "to small for grizzlys" but more large and dangerous game has been killed with it than any modern person will ever admit).
I know that core lokt is not new or fashionable but I have always had consistently good results, time after time. For an expanding bullet it is hard to beat and if I felt that a solid was needed I would probably go with the proven Barns solids.


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## Timberhauler

joesawer said:


> "You want to let a lot of air in and a lot of blood out." Elmer Kieth
> I don't know anything about the hornady bullet in question, but new and improved designs come and go at an incredible rate.
> The tried and true has something to be said for it. It is still around because it works.
> The Remington core lokt bullets are considered old news now days but when they where new and Fancy and not trusted, I remember an article about some one taking 180 gr. core lokt 30/06 to Alaska and shooting grizzly bears as a test. They reported that it went through them like a hot knife through butter. (I know a 30/06 is "to small for grizzlys" but more large and dangerous game has been killed with it than any modern person will ever admit).
> I know that core lokt is not new or fashionable but I have always had consistently good results, time after time. For an expanding bullet it is hard to beat and if I felt that a solid was needed I would probably go with the proven Barns solids.



Most everyone around here knows that the core-lokt is one awesome bullet for deer.....Most have gotten into this new "ballistic tip" craze.Everyone wants a rifle and a bullet capable of dropping a deer in it's tracks from a mile away..Then they go and hunt pine thickets..I have used core lokt bullets for everything from long range shots to 10 yards away.No matter what they do well..I have found something I like better though..Federal has a new round using the Nosler Partition bullet.In my .300 win mag. and my 30/06,they consistantly shoot tighter groups..Not that the core lokts were bad.I've killed six deer since switching to this bullet.Every one was shot through the shoulders and every one went straight through,and the deer never went more than ten yards from point of impact...I have never cared for these new generation of "exploding bullets".


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## bwalker

> Shot placement was most likely the culprit


 +1
Most people do not shoot near enough to be competant. Shooting a few accurate groups off a bench doesnt say much about a person ability under field conditions IMO.
FWIW I have burnt up on the order of 800 rounds of rifle ammo in .270, .280 and 300 win mag since January and I wish I had the time to shoot more. A commitment like this is what it takes to become a proficiant field shot.


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## bwalker

Timbehauler. I think only a idiot would argue that the partition isnt a fine bullet. With that said a partition typicaly will "explode" on impact shedding its front core and around 40% of its weight. Its for this reason that it tends to kill a bit faster than other tough bullets like the Barnes TSX.
Balistic tips are dynamite on deer and hogs. Neither animal are very tough and the BT does a number on em. So does the Speer Hot Cor and Grand Slam, Sierra Gameking and Pro hunter and Hornady Interloc.


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## joesawer

*hogs are not tough?*

If you don't think hogs are tough you have never hunted or butchered them. 
They aren't tough like a rhino but compared to a deer they are extremely tough.


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## joesawer

Timberhauler, Yes the nosler partition has a extremely good reputation and has been used a lot in Africa on heavy strong antelope and such.


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## weatherby guy

bwalker said:


> Timbehauler. I think only a idiot would argue that the partition isnt a fine bullet. With that said a partition typicaly will "explode" on impact shedding its front core and around 40% of its weight. Its for this reason that it tends to kill a bit faster than other tough bullets like the Barnes TSX.
> Balistic tips are dynamite on deer and hogs. Neither animal are very tough and the BT does a number on em. So does the Speer Hot Cor and Grand Slam, Sierra Gameking and Pro hunter and Hornady Interloc.



Spoken like someone who has a few hours in the woods and on the bench (smile). Seriously, great post. Historically I have been an absolute die hard Nosler Partition Fan. I have used them exclusively on all of my deer hunting from Texas to Saskatchewan. You are spot on regarding the front portion smearing off and the base of the bullet remaining intact. For years this bullet was considered the premiere bullet to those in the know. Great point on the Barnes TSX. I still used Noslers however not exclusively. For my brown bear hunt I switched to the Barnes TSX (378 Weatherby) and was extremely pleased with its results. The TSX in an approved version to the original Barnes design and tends to be quite a bit more accurate than earlier Barnes Designs. That said the Nosler Partition is a close number 2 and really 'numbs' the big bodied deer only found in the Canadian Provinces <Saskatchewan, Manitoba> Quick pic of one of my deer taken with a 340 in SK.


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## bwalker

> If you don't think hogs are tough you have never hunted or butchered them.
> They aren't tough like a rhino but compared to a deer they are extremely tough.


 I have skilled scads of hogs and skinned even more. A hogs bones are about the same size as a deer. They do have a grizzle plate around the shoulder area but IME most any bullet will penatrate the plate easily.

Weatherby guy, I plan to use the 168gr TSX out of my 300 winny this year on NW Ontario Whitetails and Bears.
Here is a wolf kill form last year.


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## ShoerFast

One of the cleanest quickest shots I had ever seen, working for B&W guide service , was on a bull elk that came trotting in, and my hunter, Dusty, drilled him right in the middle of the brisket. @ a little less then 100 yards.

Big ol 6X fell to a skidding stop. a 140Gr. Nosler ballistic tip, hand load for a Browning "A" bolt 7MM . Bullet went right into at the sternum (the "whatch-a-call-it" about 2 inches below were the windpipe comes out) right above the heart, and in-between both the lungs, nicked the heart, but there was not a piece of lung bigger then something that could pass for a lung from a rabbit. 

The partition made it about 14" and came to a full stop with just 2 little nicks/holes in the diaphragm, gotta love it when that happens, makes a lot nicer looking gut pile!

Dusty gave me the hide, when I skinned it, I must have cut right through the bullet hole, as there is not a nick or a hole in it.


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## bwalker

> Big ol 6X fell to a skidding stop. a 140Gr. *Nosler ballistic tip*[/B][/B], hand load for a Browning "A" bolt 7MM . Bullet went right into at the sternum (the "whatch-a-call-it" about 2 inches below were the windpipe comes out) right above the heart, and in-between both the lungs, nicked the heart, but there was not a piece of lung bigger then something that could pass for a lung from a rabbit.
> 
> The *partition *made it about 14" and came to a full stop with just 2 little nicks/holes in the diaphragm, gotta love it when that happens, makes a lot nicer looking gut pile!


 A Ballistic Tip or a Partition?
Last animal I shot with a B Tip was a Mule Deer in NE Montana. Shot a 140gr BT out of my Mcmillan rifle chambered in .280 Remington. The deer was 200 yards out and quartering away. The bullet struck just behind the ribs and ended up mushroomed out in the brisket. The deer took off like a bolt of lighting at the shot, but didnt make it far. Most of the internal organs where fubared.


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## ShoerFast

bwalker said:


> A Ballistic Tip or a Partition?
> .




B-Tip, I think it is more of a deer bullet, What I liked was not so much what the late Jack O'Connor would call "controlled expansion" but the pure "EXPANSION" or some could call it the "D I D" factor.

Guiding for a guy once that hand-loader for his 300M , he had a load that he swore by on deer, and if the chance arises he wanted to try it on an elk, a 110G hollow-point (Spear or Hornaday maybe?) . He agreed that it would be best to have the chambered load only and only when we we moving, carrying his deer-zapper, as we would have time to change it out if there were elk at distance. 

Can't remember what rifle, Remington ADL maybe, but as luck would have it, about mid-morning, we decided to fallow a heard of elk that we jumped well before morning light. Thinking that the elk may have settled down by then, and were maybe just on the next ridge, trying to pick an area to snake our way down some steep terrain, the bank on the on the other ridge just started to move, we re-jumped the same herd, they were making there way back to were we had jumped them earlier. 

My hunter was higher up the ridge, I did not even see the bull he drew on till he shot, as it rared up and did sort of a Pierrot, (I knew he tagged it when I saw under - belly) nether of us could see it much after the first few yards, but climbing the hill it looked like a crime scene, blood everywhere, and the bull , a weired 3x5 rag-horn was only a few yards away,,,, lung-lung shot with an exit hole about the size of a shotgun-shell box. 

No one could recommend that combo for elk, I was glad he had the chance to try it, and that it did work, but he did also mention that we were real lucky to get that close, and that the speed the elk were leaving , he barely had the chance,,,,, and 2 seconds latter, they would have been to far for that bullet.


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## bwalker

Me thinks he got lucky...a 110gr bullet at .300 Winny velocity levels is a recipe for disaster.
Those 110gr bullets are made for the .30 carbine and even a -06 will push them too fast for RELIABLE penatration.
FWIW Nosler made the jackets considerably thicker on the newer BT's. Now they work pretty well on Deer sized game, even when hitting bone. They are certainly no more explosive than a Sierra Gameking.


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## bwalker

Me thinks he got lucky...a 110gr bullet at .300 Winny velocity levels is a recipe for disaster.
Those 110gr bullets are made for the .30 carbine and even a -06 will push them too fast for RELIABLE penatration.
FWIW Nosler made the jackets considerably thicker on the newer BT's. Now they work pretty well on Deer sized game, even when hitting bone. They are certainly no more explosive than a Sierra Gameking.


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## ShoerFast

bwalker said:


> Me thinks he got lucky...a 110gr bullet at .300 Winny velocity levels is a recipe for disaster.
> Those 110gr bullets are made for the .30 carbine and even a -06 will push them too fast for RELIABLE penatration.
> FWIW Nosler made the jackets considerably thicker on the newer BT's. Now they work pretty well on Deer sized game, even when hitting bone. They are certainly no more explosive than a Sierra Gameking.




No doubt! 

But in this case, it was better then a recipe for "track-soup" ,,,, as it goes down a little like SOL Stew!, some say it is a little like Stone-soup, without the mineral content

Back-Straps off the spit is a hard agrument in any camp!

There is a chance that this guy did a lot of reloading, he also carried a couple loaded with a re-sized 00-buck that he had a few grains of powder behind and said they worked for grouse if you can catch them on the ground or sitting in a tree, we never saw any , never tried it, but what a cool idea for camp-meat!


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## Timberhauler

I prefer the Partition mainly because it shoots the tightest groups out of my rifle than anything else...From the 30/06 that is...My 300 win mag is the exact same rifle,but it seems to like Barnes-X bullets better...I still use the partition in both because it seems to kill faster....I guess I'm weird,but in a .30 caliber bullet I don't like to go below 180 grains in bullet weight...But I have been experimenting with some 165 grain rounds in my .308


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## bwalker

165gr bullets work well on deer out of a 30-06. For a Win mag I would prefer a 180, 200 or a stout 165 like the TSX.


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## joesawer

Shorefast, that sounds like a Jack O'conner load. "Light and fast, we will kill them with hydro-static shock." 
I don't doubt your story, but the performance of that load on any thing bigger than a coyote would have to be inconsistant. And the short length would have to have accuracy problems.


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