# Show me your Alaskan Mark III rails



## gemniii (Dec 29, 2009)

Title is wrong - I've been slapped by BobL 
It should be Alaskan Mark II Log Rails

I've been on this forum for a bit and keep seeing pictures of various rails for CSM.
There's
2x4's
2x6's
Aluminum
Ladders
etc.

How about posting pic's of rails in this one thread and benefits/drawbacks
unattributed examples


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## dallasm1 (Dec 29, 2009)

Superstrut is common. Here is my 20 ft double/rail setup. It is HEAVY, so I am working on an antisag system for a single strut channel. However this does the job for now.


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## BobL (Dec 29, 2009)

Look in the CS milling 101 thread and you will see a HEAP of log rails.

BTW, small technical detail, "Alaskan Mark III rails" mean the long rails on the mill itself, or "mill rails". 
The ones you want people to post are the "log rails" and have no specific connection to an "Alaskan Mark III rails"

Cheers


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## gemniii (Dec 29, 2009)

BobL said:


> Look in the CS milling 101 thread and you will see a HEAP of log rails.
> 
> BTW, small technical detail, "Alaskan Mark III rails" mean the long rails on the mill itself, or "mill rails".
> The ones you want people to post are the "log rails" and have no specific connection to an "Alaskan Mark III rails"
> ...


SORRY BobL

And I looked at that and saw  6 variations, might have missed some, and most of the pics involved some old white bearded guy.
Unlike me (see pic).

And actually I was hoping for pics from those that use a MIII or close equivalent. Some CSM's I've seen look like they run on railroad rails, which are HEAVY.

I'm hoping to discover some lightweight, sturdy, adaptable, inexpensive solution.


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## mtngun (Dec 29, 2009)

I started out using a straight 2 x 10 and still use even though it's no longer straight. Actually, I like the board because it is simple, has infinite attachment points, and I sit on it while running the CSM. 

I've thought about making a laminated 2x10 or something similar, with the idea being that it might actually stay straight.

Bought some unistrut a year ago but haven't got around to putting it together.  Steel unistrut is heavy.

Considered using a ladder but it would probably need to be modified and ladders don't make good seats. Still, an aluminum ladder would probably last forever and it doesn't cost that much compared to the alternatives.

Many ways to play the game, no right or wrong.


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## BobL (Dec 29, 2009)

gemniii said:


> SORRY BobL


Hey - no apologies needed 



> And I looked at that and saw  6 variations, might have missed some, and most of the pics involved some old white bearded guy.
> Unlike me (see pic).


Green huh, that's different - was it a St Patrick's day thing?



> And actually I was hoping for pics from those that use a MIII or close equivalent. Some CSM's I've seen look like they run on railroad rails, which are HEAVY.
> 
> I'm hoping to discover some lightweight, sturdy, adaptable, inexpensive solution.



Mk3 alaskans are pretty standard so guide or log rails should be pretty work on any alaskan variant.

Unfortunately milling over a distance of more than a few ft means proving some support or beefing up rails, so "lightweight and inexpensive" is a tough ask. 

I have used lightweight (3/4 x 1.5") and heavy duty (2 x 4") RHS, 1" SHS, various ally and even wooden ladders, and boards as log rails. I know some CS millers and folks on this forum like boards but I find it hard to control twist with a single board.

Ally ladders are one of the lightest solutions I've used but even they twist and have to be corrected.


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## splitpost (Dec 30, 2009)

mtngun said:


> I started out using a straight 2 x 10 and still use even though it's no longer straight. Actually, I like the board because it is simple, has infinite attachment points, and I sit on it while running the CSM.
> 
> I've thought about making a laminated 2x10 or something similar, with the idea being that it might actually stay straight.
> 
> ...



That unistrut stuff is dear,bought 2x 6meter lengths of that P1000 and 8 channel nuts set me back just over $200AU


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## BobL (Dec 30, 2009)

splitpost said:


> That unistrut stuff is dear,bought 2x 6meter lengths of that P1000 and 8 channel nuts set me back just over $200AU



Yep - especially when you can buy HD aluminium Highway sign Unistrut for the same money and they are less than half the weight - Too bad I bought my steel ones already otherwise I'd have bought the ally ones.

Here is another tip - I cut mine in half because I thought I would be milling a lot of 8 ft long logs and could then get away with using 2 x 10 ft lengths. Trouble is the most common length of logs I cut are around 9ft long, and 10ft is too short to start the log on the rails and allow enough room at the other end to come cleanly off the log. So I end up milling just about all the time with the 4 x 10 ft pieces joined together.

Next time I will cut them 8 ft and 12 ft and only add the 8 ft sections on when I need them.


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## splitpost (Dec 30, 2009)

yeah i cut mine into 12ft and the left over is 6ft figure most boards i'll cut around 10ft gives me heaps each end to start and finish


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 30, 2009)

We use two 34ft long pieces of 2"x4"x0.120" wall steel tubing for our rails. With brackets on both ends of the log, and a single support in the middle, there is very little sag. For sawing 32ft long logs it works well.

They are heavy though, takes 2 people to lift and carry. Will try to find take a picture next time we set up.

I use an aluminum ladder for anything under 12ft, nice and light.


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## mtngun (Dec 30, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> We use two 34ft long pieces of 2"x4"x0.120" wall steel tubing for our rails. With brackets on both ends of the log, and a single support in the middle, there is very little sag. For sawing 32ft long logs it works well.
> 
> They are heavy though, takes 2 people to lift and carry. Will try to find take a picture next time we set up.


Please, please, please, I wanna see pics of the setup for 32 foot long logs.


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 30, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Please, please, please, I wanna see pics of the setup for 32 foot long logs.



I should really start a seperate thread. Had posted one a year or so back asking what other people had used, but didn't get much luck. I'll dig up the old thread and add photos there.


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## dallasm1 (Dec 30, 2009)

....speechless.....


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## mtngun (Dec 30, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> Ok, here's a teaser of edging the log with the mini-mill:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I take it that in the pic you are using a short guide board and relocating it from time to time, probably using a chalk line as a guide ?

Love that long beam ! ! !:jawdrop:


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 30, 2009)

mtngun said:


> I take it that in the pic you are using a short guide board and relocating it from time to time, probably using a chalk line as a guide ?



Correct, it's a 12ft board that I just move along as needed. Just ordered another 8ft of V-rail for the mini-mill so will be able to do 16 or 20ft at a time soon.

We usually hang the rails off brackets at each end of the log, then I run a string line along the top and brace them up in the middle until it's nice and flat. I use spacers instead of wedges for the first cut so that the end doesn't lift up. It stays within about 1/8" for the whole length.

Those were some 18"x10"x32ft beams for the house my wife and I are building. Now that we're done with the 32ft lengths, I'll probably cut down the rails to 26ft to make them more managable. (for 24ft long beams)


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## sachsmo (Dec 30, 2009)

*buildin' a house*

That is so cool, where did you get your plan from?

I would like to build a small timber framed cottage in my woodlot.


Do you have a good source for timber framed plans?


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 30, 2009)

mobetter said:


> That is so cool, where did you get your plan from?



We designed it ourselves, it's actually more concrete (ICF) than timberframe, but theres lots of fir eye-candy. Very simple little 2-bedroom place, but all the structure parts are oversized.

As far as rails go, I would have gone with 1/4" thick aluminum instead of steel. Much more expensive, but would have been a lot easier to manage. Went with steel because I have more use for the material later on down the road.


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## BobL (Dec 30, 2009)

Fantastic looking wood and long beam there Kicker.

BTW I don't know how you can stand being so close to the saw without serious muffs and eye protection for such a long cut. You look about 30 years younger than me and I kick myself for not looking after my hearing when I was younger. Music sounds like mush, can't follow conversation at the movies or watching TV, can't stand being in a room with more than about 6 other people talking etc. You might have earplugs in but I know they are not enough. If I was your age I would be using muffs and earplugs.


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## gemniii (Dec 30, 2009)

BobL said:


> Fantastic looking wood and long beam there Kicker.
> 
> BTW I don't know how you can stand being so close to the saw without serious muffs and eye protection for such a long cut. You look about 30 years younger than me and I kick myself for not looking after my hearing when I was younger. Music sounds like mush, can't follow conversation at the movies or watching TV, can't stand being in a room with more than about 6 other people talking etc. You might have earplugs in but I know they are not enough. If I was your age I would be using muffs and earplugs.


BobL
When you use really tiny print it makes it difficult for some of us to see it

And keep those log rail ideas coming please!


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## olyman (Dec 30, 2009)

BobL said:


> Yep - especially when you can buy HD aluminium Highway sign Unistrut for the same money and they are less than half the weight - Too bad I bought my steel ones already otherwise I'd have bought the ally ones.
> 
> Here is another tip - I cut mine in half because I thought I would be milling a lot of 8 ft long logs and could then get away with using 2 x 10 ft lengths. Trouble is the most common length of logs I cut are around 9ft long, and 10ft is too short to start the log on the rails and allow enough room at the other end to come cleanly off the log. So I end up milling just about all the time with the 4 x 10 ft pieces joined together.
> 
> Next time I will cut them 8 ft and 12 ft and only add the 8 ft sections on when I need them.


i have tried to find that stuff over here--ive looked,and it either aint available--or i dont know where to look--as i would love some aluminum ones--would work---EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 30, 2009)

BobL said:


> BTW I don't know how you can stand being so close to the saw without serious muffs and eye protection for such a long cut.



Hi Bob,

Trust me, I take very good care of my eyes and ears. I always wear frameless safety glasses (they tend to not show up well in pictures) and have gone through many, many different types to find some that actually seal tightly to my face.

For earplugs, I use a closed cell foam version that is extra long. The biggest mistake with earplugs is not installing them correctly. You must pull up the top of your ear so that they can be inserted fully, otherwise they are not very effective. In the high frequency range of a chainsaw, both plugs and/or quality muffs are a good choice. My preference is to use plugs and leave them in all day.


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## mtngun (Dec 30, 2009)

gemniii said:


> BobL
> When you use really tiny print it makes it difficult for some of us to see it


The tiny print may have something to do with me teasing BobL for his safety lectures. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## BobL (Dec 31, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Trust me, I take very good care of my eyes and ears. I always wear frameless safety glasses (they tend to not show up well in pictures) and have gone through many, many different types to find some that actually seal tightly to my face.
> 
> For earplugs, I use a closed cell foam version that is extra long. The biggest mistake with earplugs is not installing them correctly. You must pull up the top of your ear so that they can be inserted fully, otherwise they are not very effective. In the high frequency range of a chainsaw, both plugs and/or quality muffs are a good choice. My preference is to use plugs and leave them in all day.



Cheers Kicker good to hear you were wearing both hearing and eye protection.

This is a very interesting research article about the effectiveness of ear plugs that all members might find interesting, and is why I don't rely on plugs alone.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/awards/hamilton/pdfs/fourep.pdf

In summary it says exactly what you said, ie with plugs fit is critical. It is so critical that the claimed Noise Reduction Ratings provided by Manufacturers are clearly above any sort of everyday values.

As an example, the claimed NRR by one manufacturer was 33 dBA. Allowing 20 different users to fit their own earplugs gave an average of only 12 dBA, When 10 subjects were fitted by an expert 3 times each the best they could do on average was 16 dBA. The best any expert could manage when fitting a user was 29 dBA. 

In another example the manufacturer claimed a NRR of 29, user rating was 17, expertly fitted average rating was 27, and highest expert fitted rating was 33!

Muffs are also not problem free but they are less reliant on the ability of a user to fit them correctly every time.


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 31, 2009)

Ok, here's a couple pics of the rails setup on a 32ft log. Notice that they just have to be horizontal, they can flex from side to side without any issues.

Sorry about the cell phone quality pics:


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## BobL (Dec 31, 2009)

Nice work  - I have a stack of 10 and 14" long 2 x 4" tubing which I picked up (with permission) from a building site that I can use. Don't have any logs that long though!


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## sachsmo (Dec 31, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> Ok, here's a couple pics of the rails setup on a 32ft log. Notice that they just have to be horizontal, they can flex from side to side without any issues.
> 
> Sorry about the cell phone quality pics:





What chain are you using, also how many 32 foot cuts do you get between chains?

So .250 wall 2x4 aluminum tubing would be your 1st choice eh?

We have some in 20 ft. lengths on the rack at work, it's been there for 8 years. I could get it for scrap price!


At scrap price it would be cheaper than uni-strut.

1.5"x3" aluminum extrusion would be sweet, but they sell that stuff by the inch, Could get real spendy, but can be joined almost seamlessly.


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## gemniii (Dec 31, 2009)

Also -
How much time, fuel, and chain oil for a cut?
What saw?


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 31, 2009)

gemniii said:


> Also -
> How much time, fuel, and chain oil for a cut?
> What saw?



On the MS880 shown with the 41" bar, I'm using 3/8" pitch chain on an 8-pin sprocket, full chisel, semi-skip, and 5° filing angle. 

I prefer to use my 385xp whenever possible (3/8" chain 7-pin sprocket), but this one was about 1" too wide for the 30" bar I have on that saw. For edging sides I use the 385xp or an older poulan 3400 with 16" bar for thin cuts and notching on the mini-mill as it wanders less.

Cutting times vary so much by log width and lengths that its hard to say, but usually about 30mins for a cut in this dry Fir. I sharpen after each pass with a handheld grinder, and swap out the chains about every three touch-ups. The chain angles and rakers are reset at home on a Calton wheel grinder from Baileys.

Rails take about 15 min to setup, three deck screws hold each plywood end bracket in place, then I screw whatever chunks of wood seem to fit well to support the middle of the rails. Each rail weighs about 160lbs, so is a two person job.


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## mtngun (Dec 31, 2009)

Kicker, that's chainsaw milling at it's finest.


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 31, 2009)

[insert safety add here]


BobL said:


> Muffs are also not problem free but they are less reliant on the ability of a user to fit them correctly every time.



I find with muffs that the safety glasses create a small gap and allow noise through. At a previous job I had, we used to use both plugs and special low freq muffs overtop. The problem with lower frequencies is the vibration through the bones in your face are more of a problem than the actual ear opening. The high frequency range of chainsaws is important to protect since it's also what lets you distinguish voices. 

The key is proper use of whichever type of protection you use. As you pointed out, improperly installed plugs will have little affect. I'd suggest to anyone going for a hearing test, as them to show you how to put in a plug. You'll be amazed by the differance.

Keep in mind that a 10db drop is percieved to be half as loud. So as Bob pointed out:


> user rating was 17, expertly fitted average rating was 27


That differance will make everything sound like half the volume it was with the plug squished in improperly.

[and now back to your milling rails discussion]


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## gemniii (Dec 31, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> Rails take about 15 min to setup, three deck screws hold each plywood end bracket in place, then I screw whatever chunks of wood seem to fit well to support the middle of the rails. Each rail weighs about 160lbs, so is a two person job.


Do you make a custom end support for varying diameters of trees?

And thanks for the data.
Happy New Year!


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## sachsmo (Dec 31, 2009)

Kicker_92 said:


> On the MS880 shown with the 41" bar, I'm using 3/8" pitch chain on an 8-pin sprocket, full chisel, semi-skip, and 5° filing angle.
> 
> I prefer to use my 385xp whenever possible (3/8" chain 7-pin sprocket), but this one was about 1" too wide for the 30" bar I have on that saw. For edging sides I use the 385xp or an older poulan 3400 with 16" bar for thin cuts and notching on the mini-mill as it wanders less.
> 
> ...





Thank you so much for the pics and other tricks of the trade.

I need to make a trailer like they use for propane tanks, or cemetery vaults to lift my logs up to a "user friendly" level. Guess for now I could get one of those "farm jacks" I may be able to catch one on sale at the local Rural King.


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## Kupreanof (Dec 31, 2009)

What is the spec/trade name on the 2x4 rails? Anybody know? It would make it easier to have them ordered in up here.


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## Kicker_92 (Dec 31, 2009)

Kupreanof said:


> What is the spec/trade name on the 2x4 rails? Anybody know? It would make it easier to have them ordered in up here.



Just plain rectangular tubing. Any welding or metalworking shop should be able to point you in the right direction. 

The 2x4 rails I'm using is typically called Hollow Structural Steel (HSS), and is just mild steel tubing that's commonly used for posts and structural applications (buildings, gates, racking, etc.). Our steel supplier stocks it in 20ft and 40ft lengths. I used the same size to build a utility trailer, so it made sense to order it all at once.



gemniii said:


> Do you make a custom end support for varying diameters of trees?


I use the same plywood support and just screw it in higher on larger logs. 

For lifting the logs and beams, we have a couple cant hooks and farm jacks, but usually just cheat and use the mini-excavator.


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## MR4WD (Jan 1, 2010)

Kicker_92 said:


> On the MS880 shown with the 41" bar, I'm using 3/8" pitch chain on an 8-pin sprocket, full chisel, semi-skip, and 5° filing angle.
> 
> I prefer to use my 385xp whenever possible (3/8" chain 7-pin sprocket), but this one was about 1" too wide for the 30" bar I have on that saw. For edging sides I use the 385xp or an older poulan 3400 with 16" bar for thin cuts and notching on the mini-mill as it wanders less.
> 
> ...



Amazing... where abouts in the province do you call home?

Thanks, Chad.


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## jimdad07 (Jan 1, 2010)

Kicker_92,

Very nice work, you just gave me a few more ideas to make my mill. GOOD JOB!!!


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## chuckwood (Jan 1, 2010)

*raising logs*



mobetter said:


> I need to make a trailer like they use for propane tanks, or cemetery vaults to lift my logs up to a "user friendly" level. Guess for now I could get one of those "farm jacks" I may be able to catch one on sale at the local Rural King.



For lifting big logs, I use a heavy piece of a steel angle iron that I bolt onto the end of the log using 1/2" thick lag screws. The steel angle is long enough that it sticks out on both sides. With a couple of 3 ton automotive type floor jacks on each side of the log and under the steel angle, you can apply lifting force on both sides of the log, and that keeps it from rolling over. It's necessary to place some pieces of thick and wide oak lumber under the jacks to prevent them from sinking into the ground. As the log goes up, you keep shoving and stacking lumber under it for safety as you're working with it. The floor jacks can maybe raise it up a foot or so. If you wish to go another foot, just securely support the log and place wide, heavy wooden pieces under the floor jacks and go up another foot. I take a small generator with me to power an electric drill and an electric impact wrench for installing and removing the big lag screws that fasten the angle iron to the log. There are maybe easier and faster methods, but that's what works for me with the equipment I already have laying around the shop.


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