# How to start nut trees?



## SCQTT (Oct 18, 2008)

During a funeral last week I picked up a few nuts from my grandfather's old farm in West Virginia. The were Black Walnut, Chinese Chesnut, and what the locals called Butternut, which looks like an oblong Walnut of some sort with a fuzzy outer covering that has a sticky residue (the "Butternut" tree looked very similar to a Black Wanut tree.)

I brought these nuts back with me to West TN in hopes of starting some new trees that would have some sentimental value for future family members and myself.

I would like to start the trees in west TN and then transplant them to my Fathers farm near Mt. Vernon Ohio.

My thoughts were to plant them in some sort of peat containers and then transfer them once they are are a foot or two high to Ohio.

I plan to do about 20 of each variety.

Should I wait until spring to start this process? Should I let the nuts freeze, keep them cool, or keep them warm if I wait until spring.

If I plant them now I would just assume I would leave them outside all winter.

We have one Chinese chesnut tree at the farm in ohio. (obviously no chesnuts) and Black walnuts are plentiful at our farm as a wild species, so I know these will do well. Any ideas about the "Butternut" in Ohio?

I want to plant these in very symetrical rows or grids. What do you think for spacing requirements?

Thanks for your help,


Scott


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## dafunk (Oct 19, 2008)

the butternut is Juglans cinera most likely, a close relative of black walnut, also called white walnut. as far as planting it i don't know much about that but i would guess it has to go through a cold period so maybe put each one in a fiber pot filled with the same kind of soil they'll be planted into and leave them in the ground outside for the winter and allowed to grow for a few years, assuming they germinate. You should be able to take them out of the ground once a year as they're in fiber pots and should make moving them easier. This is just an idea though, not sure how well it will actually work, let me know how it goes, or any other methods you use.


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## johninky (Oct 20, 2008)

Our backyard would be a stand of oak, walnut and pecan trees because of squirrels if we didn't remove the saplings every summer. Every fall the little furry guys bury nuts/acorns and every spring saplings pop up from whatever was buried and forgotten. Can't comment too much on the walnuts but I know the oak saplings we have tried to relocate have one heck of a tap root. Because of this I would not recommend leaving the potted saplings in pots for more than one summer.


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## PB (Oct 21, 2008)

They need to be stratified, or frozen for a period of time, to sprout. I would put them in some type of squirrel proof container (not air tight) and leave them outside so they can be exposed to the environment. If they are viable and alive they will sprout in the spring. When you see them starting to sprout, I would plant them in plastic pots, you should be able to pick some up from a local nursery, and then plant the pots in the ground. The fiber pots most likely won't last that long. It might take a year or two to get to the height you want. I hope this helps.


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## kyle1! (Oct 22, 2008)

johninky said:


> Our backyard would be a stand of oak, walnut and pecan trees because of squirrels if we didn't remove the saplings every summer. Every fall the little furry guys bury nuts/acorns and every spring saplings pop up from whatever was buried and forgotten. Can't comment too much on the walnuts but I know the oak saplings we have tried to relocate have one heck of a tap root. Because of this I would not recommend leaving the potted saplings in pots for more than one summer.



I wish I had this problem. I have been trying to redo my 5 acres by introducing oaks/walnuts/ash (Before I knew of EAB). The saplings I have are mulberry, thorny honey locust, silver maple and hackberry (not so bad)  

For oaks I would just plant the acorns in the ground and forget about putting them in pots. They don't transplant well as is and when they over winter the stratification is taken care of.

Brian


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## S Mc (Oct 28, 2008)

The Butternut, _ Juglans cinerea_, is native to Ohio so should be fine for climate. However, there is a canker, _Sirococcus clavigignenti-juglandacearum_, that is devastating this tree in its native habitat. There is a movement to try to find resistant trees in this species. (I will try to find the link and post it.) Were the trees healthy from which you obtained these seeds? 

The butternut's root system is evidently much more fibrous than its close relative the Black Walnut and, therefore, would be easier to transplant. As Plant Biologist stated the seeds need cold stratification, so I would get them outside and let nature take care of that.

A bit of information on the Black Walnut that I thought was interesting is that even though they state that they need cold stratification for the same length of time as the Butternut, i.e., 90 - 120 days, the germination rate on the BW is very low. The longer the time of stratification, the better the germination rate (and they are talking months here). It might be interesting to get some of those seeds outside and put some in a more controlled environment inside to be kept cold for a much longer time as a "test" to see about germination. 

Although, you did state that Black Walnuts were prevalent already on your grandfather's farm in Ohio and, obviously, that would provide your species selection there. Black Walnuts are difficult to transplant due to their strong tap root.

Sylvia


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## S Mc (Oct 28, 2008)

Of course, I can't find the link I was thinking of but here is a link on the Butternut Tree and Canker. It encourages leaving trees with 50% or more canopy in a stand for producing resistant trees. (This was why I was curious as to how healthy the trees were where you obtained the nuts.) This might be a very worthwhile project of yours to not only give a living legacy in memory of a loved one but help propagate a tree that is bordering on being listed as an "endangered species".

http://www.main.nc.us/SERAMBO/BControl/butternut.html

Sylvia


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## SCQTT (Oct 29, 2008)

Great info! Thanks to everyone.

The Butternut tree looked healthy to me, but as you know it is not too unusual for a walnut type tree to look a little shabby in the fall. At least I think they do. Perhaps I'll get a better feel for this tree's health if I visit in the summer or spring. 

My father (Ohio farm) told me that he thought were also some Butternut trees on his land but it had been a while since he had noticed them. Perhaps they are all gone now.

My mother, now in her sixties, remembers that Butternut tree from when she was a young adult so my guess is that is is at least 50 years old. 

I am going to put the nuts outside for the winter. While we certainly have weather below freezing our normal daytime temp is above freezing. 

Thanks again everyone.  


Scott


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## woodguy105 (Oct 29, 2008)

Interesing post...My BIL has a walnut tree and I'm hoping to get some of his walnuts for our property. Didn't know about the statification process..

thanks for the info.
woodguy105


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## kyle1! (Nov 7, 2008)

*Pics of my plots*

I planted these acorns and walnuts about 5-6yrs ago to make seedlings to transplant. It is survival of the fittest now because I never got around to transplanting them. Plot size is around 10ftx15ft.

Brian


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## PB (Nov 7, 2008)

kyle1! said:


> I planted these acorns and walnuts about 5-6yrs ago to make seedlings to transplant. It is survival of the fittest now because I never got around to transplanting them. Plot size is around 10ftx15ft.
> 
> Brian



I had planted about 5 or 6 walnuts that were started from hulls, and didn't transplant them. They were about 15ft tall and about 5 years old. It is crazy how fast those little buggers grow. I couldn't get them to make a primary leader so they had multiple leaders, and finally gave up on them. I am not a tree pruning expert either. My oaks that I started from acorns in 2002 are still doing great. They are pushing the 15ft mark as well. My friend has started some and they are only 6in tall and about 3 years old. He can't figure it out.


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## kyle1! (Nov 7, 2008)

He must not be using Miracle Grow for them to be only 6inches at 3 yrs  Mine were that tall after the first year. Like they say, location location location. I planted sycamore and green ash cuttings behind these plots about the same time and they are close to 25ft. This is a very wet area on my property and they just thrive.

Brian


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## PB (Nov 7, 2008)

kyle1! said:


> He must not be using Miracle Grow for them to be only 6inches at 3 yrs  Mine were that tall after the first year. Like they say, location location location. I planted sycamore and green ash cuttings behind these plots about the same time and they are close to 25ft. This is a very wet area on my property and they just thrive.
> 
> Brian



Yeah, he has them under a row of spruce trees. I can't imagine them little guys being to happy there. I told him to move them to a different spot in his yard that didn't have a pile of pine needles and more sunlight. I hope he got them to grow more this year. I have tons of green ash at home, seems like they pop up wherever there is a border. The sides of the garage are littered with the things and have to pull them out every year.


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## S Mc (Nov 7, 2008)

Brian and PB, super interesting reading here. Did you guys test for viability prior to planting these? Or just plop them in the ground? Some of the info on black walnuts is that their germination rate can be pretty low, rate increasing with the length of stratification.

What is the soil like where you have planted these? Any other info you are willing to share I would appreciate knowing. What kind of oaks did you plant, etc.

Black walnuts are shade intolerant but oaks tend to be succession species so vary in their shade tolerance (per my limited knowledge). 

Thanks for sharing and keep it coming, if you will. 

Sylvia


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## kyle1! (Nov 7, 2008)

Sylvia, Alot of my info is from university extension publications. With any project I read, read some more and then read it again to make sure I don't waste my effort. 

I live on 5 acres in the middle of corn and soybean country. The weedy tree species (silver maple, elm, mulberry and locust) have taken over the property and I'm reintroducing the oaks/walnuts that once belonged here. Hopefully in my lifetime I will get to see the results. I have at least 2ft of good topsoil before hitting clay and have 2 different soil types (silty/clay loams) within that 5 acres. One soil type has much better drainage and I can grow trees like northern pecan and sugar maple. The other soil is too wet for the drier upland trees. This is where I planted the acorns/walnuts. Soil pH is around 7.2 to 7.5.

From my readings oak seed is viable for about 2 weeks after it falls off the tree unless you refridgerate the seed. As soon as you collect your acorns get them planted or you may take a hit on the germination rate. Winter is plenty long here and can be quite harsh with snow, wind and temps as low -20F. Mother nature is all that is needed for stratification. Before planting I float my seed in a garbage can, discard the bad ones and then soak the acorns for 24hrs in water before planting. I used a spade to remove the grass and 1 or 2in of topsoil. In my plot I used around 30-40 gallons of acorns which is alot but I didn't know what to expect. Covered up the acorns with soil and walked over the area to compact the soil which leads to better seed to soil contact. Mulched the entire area and watered with soaker hose over the entire plot throughout the fall.

In the spring and summer weed the plot. In my plots by the end of year one I had so many seedlings that they shaded out all the weeds.  
I did the same thing for the walnuts and I'm not sure on the germination rates. You just can't plant as many walnuts per area like acorns so the plot is less dense. My plots are side by side and get full sun. From reading oaks can tolerate some shading but walnuts supposely don't like that just as you said .

PB, I planted alot of ash trees before hearing about EAB. Some are approaching 5-6" dia and all my effort may be lost in the next 10yrs  Didn't know at the time I was planting future firewood.

Brian


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## S Mc (Nov 8, 2008)

Brian, SUPER info, Thank you. I also read many publications as the only way to find out about subjects for which I have little experience (and little opportunity to experiment with). So appreciate your sharing your findings so much as many times "real world" experiences have their own little variations area to area and case to case.

I was wondering how many seeds you had planted to get so many seedlings - ALOT. You mentioned you hadn't transplanted any yet. It would be interesting to know the survival rate as both these species have strong tap roots and therefore, don't transplant easily. Are you planning on just thinning this plot out now or trying to transplant some?

Are you considering other species for your reclamation project? By the way, good for you! Excellent improvement project.

Sylvia


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## PB (Nov 8, 2008)

Not Brian, but I have about 90% success rate in transplanting Red Oaks and a little less with the Walnuts. Usually if I can get them out of the ground okay, I can get them to survive. I don't have the proper equipment to dig them up so sometimes it is a craps shoot. 

What species are you interested in? I have several publications on germination procedures and techniques. Some date back to the 1920's.


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## kyle1! (Nov 8, 2008)

I won't transplant these plots they are just too old. After all those acorns I will have one tree there. :censored: It would be much easy to start another plot and then tranplant the 1st/2nd year. Tranplant success would be much higher.

Brian


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## S Mc (Nov 11, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> Not Brian, but I have about 90% success rate in transplanting Red Oaks and a little less with the Walnuts. Usually if I can get them out of the ground okay, I can get them to survive. I don't have the proper equipment to dig them up so sometimes it is a craps shoot.
> 
> What species are you interested in? I have several publications on germination procedures and techniques. Some date back to the 1920's.



At this point my curiosity is more for building general knowledge. When you say "if I can get them out of the ground ok..." How much of the tap root do you feel you need to feel confident of success? For trying of transplant, do you go by above ground size and/or age for optimum results? 

As I said, I don't have specific experience in transplanting these young plants and so this is very helpful information from those of you who have. 

We are involved with a historic estate here and are establishing arboretum status for the grounds. The time era is late 1800s to 1940. Are any of the publications you have possibly relevant to this project? Do you have titles you could pm me or a direction to head for research on the internet. I am looking for pictures of formal landscapes of that era, information on cultural practices (there was a working greenhouse at that time that we are going to be trying to reestablish in our long term master plan). Any information you have or can lead me to would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks much.

Sylvia


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## PB (Nov 11, 2008)

S Mc said:


> At this point my curiosity is more for building general knowledge. When you say "if I can get them out of the ground ok..." How much of the tap root do you feel you need to feel confident of success? For trying of transplant, do you go by above ground size and/or age for optimum results?
> 
> As I said, I don't have specific experience in transplanting these young plants and so this is very helpful information from those of you who have.
> 
> ...



I try to get as much of the root as possible. You can transplant any tree size, but you need the proper equipment to do it. You can only dig down so far with a shovel and spade. The root ball gets too heavy to heave out by hand, so there is a point of practicality of not transplanting. I don't usually try to move anything bigger than 2" diameter trees. After that I find the roots are too well established and don't want to dig up that much material. Again, I am not an expert with the proper tools. If I had a tree spade it would be a different story. 

I can give you some article titles, but I have thousands of articles I would have to dig through. The best place to start is with google scholar (http://scholar.google.com/). This will take you to any publicly available literature. Also your local cooperative extension would be a great place for information. Transplanting and growing trees depends greatly on your local area and soil type. Heavy soils are not so great for transplanting, while sandy soils are typically better. 

I hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 12, 2008)

Good info here, thank you everyone. I'm starting some orchard trees this year you've given me some things to think about.


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## kyle1! (Nov 12, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> Not Brian, but I have about 90% success rate in transplanting Red Oaks and a little less with the Walnuts. Usually if I can get them out of the ground okay, I can get them to survive.



On my property I can not get a red oak to survive after the first year. These are not acorn planted trees but 2-3yr old seedling bought from a nursery and also a few 2 to 3 gallon pot size red oaks. They leaf out then the next year they are crispy. I have not tried them in the 1/16 of an acre on my property where my northern pecan and sugar maple are doing well. That may be the ticket for a succesful planting of red oak. 

Brian.


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## Tom Henson (Feb 12, 2009)

*Floating acorns*

Brian, You said you float your acorns then dicard the bad ones. Are the floaters bad and the good ones sink?


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## PB (Feb 12, 2009)

Tom Henson said:


> Brian, You said you float your acorns then dicard the bad ones. Are the floaters bad and the good ones sink?



The good ones sink. At least that is what I remember. The ones that float are usually hollow and are missing the internal parts that contain the embryo.


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## kyle1! (Feb 12, 2009)

Yep, Throw the floaters away. If you look closely at the acorn there usually is a pinhole where the insect burrowed inside.

Brina


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## brnchbrkr (Feb 13, 2009)

kyle1! said:


> I planted these acorns and walnuts about 5-6yrs ago to make seedlings to transplant. It is survival of the fittest now because I never got around to transplanting them. Plot size is around 10ftx15ft.
> 
> Brian



Thin the herd! You sacrifice/transplant one to give another more room to grow. Your choice to keep the healthy one where it grows and move some of the others around it. 

Now is perfect time to transplant with everything dormant and starting to wake up.

Get yourself a Nursery Spade shovel
http://www.gemplers.com/product/W419/King-of-Spades-Nursery-Spade


Spread them around your acerage, and you will be surprised on survival rate.

Just make sure to water in really well and don't bury the rootball.


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## kyle1! (Feb 14, 2009)

I suppose I could try but these are approaching 5-7ft tall and will have a massive root ball/tap root. I'm looking to plant some more trees around the place so it is worth a shot. I will wait another month or so because the ground is still frozen. Thanks

Brian


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## brnchbrkr (Feb 14, 2009)

*bare root*

this time a year, a lot of trees are shipped bare root.

Up to 2" diameter or more or less..

Kept in the shade and in cool storage.

With plenty of moisture from head to root.

Mainly have to keep the roots wet untill you put them in the ground.

Go for it when the frost will let you dig.

http://www.arborday.org/trees/NineNum8.cfm

not sure of this next link, but the main thing is give the tree and ground plenty of moisture once you transplsnt a tree.

http://www.perennialparadise.org/planting-bare-root-trees/


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## kyle1! (Feb 18, 2009)

brnchbrkr said:


> Get yourself a Nursery Spade shovel
> http://www.gemplers.com/product/W419/King-of-Spades-Nursery-Spade



I wish these shovels didn't cost so much I would have bought one already. My cheap plastic handle spade is still going strong. I have planted alot of bare root stock and it does as well as potted items if you water them well. 

I plan to plant 10 to 20 trees as soon as the frost is out I'll start digging some burr oak and walnut. I have plenty available. The ones on the inside of the plots don't get as much sun and are smaller. Hopefully they will be an easier transplant. 

I may try that diaper recycling. I still have a child in diapers. Could be stinky on a hot summer day though

Brian


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## kyle1! (Feb 19, 2009)

I know just talking to myself. I found a used king of spades KS-D on ebay with 1min to go. No other bidders so it is mine. No one else in this country wants to transplant trees  

Brian


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## PB (Feb 19, 2009)

kyle1! said:


> I know just talking to myself. I found a used king of spades KS-D on ebay with 1min to go. No other bidders so it is mine. No one else in this country wants to transplant trees
> 
> Brian



 I can't wait for the ground to thaw.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 19, 2009)

Jacob J. said:


> Good info here, thank you everyone. I'm starting some orchard trees this year you've given me some things to think about.



What are you starting Jacob? I've done several new (to me) varieties of apples over the last 5 years. (Honeycrisp, Pixie Crunch, Sundance, and Johnathan's)


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## brnchbrkr (Feb 25, 2009)

*Did you win the bid or did you get sniped? ;-)*



kyle1! said:


> I know just talking to myself. I found a used king of spades KS-D on ebay with 1min to go. No other bidders so it is mine. No one else in this country wants to transplant trees
> 
> Brian





If you won, lets see a pic of the spade and $. ;-)

Need to see the edge. ;-))

May have to sharpen it up a bit. Grinder time if it isn't sharp! 

One way to figure out the diameter of root ball for your transplant is to put some twine around the base of the tree then measure where the end touches the other end of the twine. Put the end of the twine at the base of the tree and stretch straight out to where it touched the twine. Now start making a circle around the tree with that length of sisal, (twine). This should be the minimum size of your root ball.

http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81398&d=1226034751
http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=81399&d=1226034769

By the looks of your plot, you may just put a spade in the ground and pop out a few trees at once. No problem, just seperate them, keep them wet, and get them back into the ground. 

This winter we got a lot of snow before the cold -20 F weather set in.

Right now, we have no snow, and no frost.

Getting real close to test out your new spade!

;-)


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## kyle1! (Feb 25, 2009)

Here is the auction; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=150326366983 The cheapest I could fine on online was $85 with shipping. Diamond shaped blade instead of straight. It does need to be sharpened but it is built like a tank.

My plots are high density that is for sure and I will not be able to spade just a single tree's root ball. I'm real anxious to start transplanting that is for sure. I get a break from kid sports in March so the frost better be out of the ground  Last year I planted seedlings in April while it was snowing and 30 degrees.

Brian


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## brnchbrkr (Feb 26, 2009)

*spade*

Give your spade a couple of licks on the grinder. Try to follow the original sharpening. Should be done on the inside face of the spade.

Lets say you wrapped your rope around the base and it measures 4" circumference. Hold one end on the trunk and at the 4" mark away scratch the dirt with your spade. Make a complete circle around the base of 4". and this is a minimum for ball. 

Some rules of thumb for size of dirt ball is, 10" of dirt for each inch diameter of tree measured up 6". If Tree measures above 6" you move up to a foot above the ground for your measurement.

So a 3" diameter tree should have an 30" ball. These are some guidelines say if you went to buy some trees already dug. 

Lot's of variables. But Spring has to be your best time. Watch for the buds to swell and get digging before everything leafs out.

Now in your case, get a good sharp hand pruner and lopper. The roots may need some pruning once you have tried to hand dig them.

They like a nice clean cut, on a slight angle, if you have to prune. 

Best to make a clean cut, vs leaving a torn root when planting.

No frost here, and raining today....;-(


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## kyle1! (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks for the planting info on size etc. 

Brian


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## True Blue Sam (Feb 27, 2009)

Squirrels like to dig up the nuts, and a friend of mine came up with a nice solution. He burns soup cans in a fire so they will eventually rust away, then he cuts an X in the closed end. He turns out the points and puts the can down over the planted nut. Squirrels can't get to the nut, the tree can come up with no trouble, and in a few years the can will melt away.


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## kyle1! (Mar 6, 2009)

That is a good idea to protect the acorns from the squirrels. 

brnchbrkr, You must live close to the concrete jungle of Chicago/Rockford. My plots are in a very wet area almost swampy. When digging last night in the oak plot the shovel would just disappear in the goo. No root ball is coming up with these tress the dirt just falls off the roots. I went to the tree planting area on the south side of property and clink. Frost is at 3inches 

Using the King of spades spade I chop/chip the soil out. With the soil on the ground i take the spade again and chop it up like mincing an onion. I planted 3 trees dug 6 up. I don't feel so bad throwing 3 away when I know I have 100's left  These had the most roots out of the 6. Rain is forecasted for the weekend and that is why I planted last night at 10pm.

The spade is just awesome and money well spent.

Brian


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## brnchbrkr (Mar 8, 2009)

*Rain here*

for the last 2 days....

Talk about muddy...Think the last thunder cell went by for now, time to take the kids out for a walk ....

Mud is not the best time to dig trees, but you got to due what you got to due.

Hold off on watering in the new transplants!!!

Temps got down in the teens last week with no snow, so frost set in a couple of inches. Pretty sure it all got washed away this weekend.

You guessed pretty good at where I am located, now how did you due that?

:jawdrop:
:greenchainsaw:


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