# Trash pump, vs High pressure fire pump?



## northmanlogging

Well, I've been wanting to get me a little fire fighting unit for some time now, but they are not cheap... however I think with a little scrounging and the right parts I may be able to build a usable version for less then 500 bones.

The kicker is that a decent fire pump is 800 new, or 2000 on C's list (not sure why). But a trash pump which from the outside is nearly identical is 150-300 used.

What I don't know for sure is if a trash pump will have the stones to push 80 plus psi, if necked down from 2-3" to 1.5" or less? 

Anybody ever try this before?

The frame/tank/and hoses bit is easy, the pump is the hard part.


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## Odog

I'm not sure if you would gain PSI by necking it down. The trash pump is more about moving volume instead of pressure.


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## HuskStihl

I rent trash pumps from time to time. The little gas 5hp gas powered one I got last time moved a fuk ton of water real quick-like. I was pleasantly surprised. Obviously never run a fahr pump


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## 350X

A buddy of mine builds skid units. He likes to say " if you use a trash pump you end up with....trash. " Not sure what fire pump your comparing to but most of them put out way more than 80 psi at the discharge. I believe a lot of what separates the trash vs fire is quality of parts an ease of repair. Its no big deal to swap a pump head off the engine on most fire units. What model fire pump u comparing to?


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## 350X

Odog said:


> I'm not sure if you would gain PSI by necking it down. The trash pump is more about moving volume instead of pressure.


Pressure would go up, volume go down


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## northmanlogging

350X said:


> A buddy of mine builds skid units. He likes to say " if you use a trash pump you end up with....trash. " Not sure what fire pump your comparing to but most of them put out way more than 80 psi at the discharge. I believe a lot of what separates the trash vs fire is quality of parts an ease of repair. Its no big deal to swap a pump head off the engine on most fire units. What model fire pump u comparing to?



No particular model, most fire pump are rated at 100-150 psi, but what little experience I have with fire hose they where running about 80-90 and getting it done. 

The trash pumps have no psi rating, so I'm a little lost for numbers.


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## HuskStihl

Do the fire pumps list a flow rate for a given pipe size? You can also compare the power rating of the pump. The PSI can be calculated from the flow rate, but it's a *****


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## madhatte

I'd say it depends on what you want to move that water for, and how often. A trash pump is called that not because it's a low-quality unit, but rather because it's able to pass chunks through the impeller without damage. If you go the fire pump route, you need to know whether you want a 1- 2- or 4-stage unit. All of them need to be protected against loss of flow as water is both the lubricant and the coolant. You could also opt for a positive-displacement pump if you only care about pressure and not flow. There's a lot of variables.


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## catbuster

The skid unit in our wildland unit is a single-stage centrifugal pump. That means low pressure, high volume. It works very well.

When you're fighting wildland as an engine crew, you very rarely want a high pressure pump because it scatters your burning stuff and it can aerate the fire. What you really want is to soak the fuel and dissipate the heat whilst cutting off the oxygen flow. Also, the size of your hose will cause the pressure to vary at a specific GPM.


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## BeatCJ

For what you really need, an affordable pump that starts easily will work just fine. Right now, all of ours ( 5 brush trucks and three portable pumps) are single stage centrifugals like catbuster's. We have switched to all Honda power, just for trustworthiness. I have a pair of high pressure 4 stage heads we can swap onto our portable pumps, they have never been used except to try them out. The GX390 powered pumps are a little undersized to deal with an 1 1/2" preconnect, but still get the job done on a car fire, or something like that. I have one with the GX630, and eventually, we will change over all of our trucks to that engine and the appropriate pump.


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## madhatte

We use the 23-HP Briggs Vanguard V-twins with the Wildfire 4-stage centrifugal pumps on belt-drive speed increasers, attached to a tank (we have 250, 300, 410, and 1000 gal tanks). They'll do either pressure (~300psi) or flow (~200gpm) but not both at the same time. It's a good, handy, dependable system. You may be able to find them as "portable" units since Wajax used to sell an identical setup called the BB-4, but I'm not sure Wildfire sells them that way any more.

EDIT: one rig has a 20-HP Honda V-twin and a single-stage Darley. Good engine, lousy slip, pump would be fine if I didn't have to worry about it losing a prime.


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## northmanlogging

The trash pumps are usually rated at gallons per hour, and the fire pumps are gallons per minute, trash is 11,000 gph, the fire is like 90 gpm, so so probably fairly comparable, just a matter of how much slips by the trash pumps impeller... which from what I gather is about the only difference between single impeller pumps is the clearances... and meaty ness of a trash pump.

I don't really plan on draining any ponds or what not with it, not really my cup of tea. All I want it for is a stand by unit in case I make a bigger mess then my 2 piss pots can handle... or considering the fact the rest of the state is torching, and across the street from me is not much more then 10,000 acres or so of forest...

Lake Chellan is only like 40 miles by air do east.


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## madhatte

northmanlogging said:


> I don't really plan on draining any ponds or what not with it, not really my cup of tea. All I want it for is a stand by unit in case I make a bigger mess then my 2 piss pots can handle...



Solid point. Yer gonna be fine with a trash pump.


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## 2dogs

Northy how can I say this politely...uhm most everything written here is wrong. No offense guys but this was my profession for many years. Like Nate said the difference between a trash pump and a fire pump is the clearance inside the pump.(There is also a general purpose water pump between these two the can vary from cheapo plastic housings to very high quality pumps). As was stated a trash pump is meant to pump solids about half the diameter of the discharge. A 3" trash pump will pass solids a little smaller the 1 1/2" diameter. A "high pressure" pump made for fire fighting needs to pump clear water, not even sand, or it will wear out fast. I put high pressure in quotes because that term has no standard definition outside the fire service. Most consumer and industrial portable pumps are rated in gallons per hour AND head pressure. The two have to be considered together. Gallons per hour or GPH means how much water the pump puts out when drafting (using hard suction hose and with a water source at the same elevation as the pump and at or near sea level). Head pressure means how much force the water stream has to overcome positive elevation change. One foot of elevation equal to .433psi. This can be rounded up to 1/2psi per foot. So if a pump is rated at 80 feet of head pressure then it can put out around 40psi. This is all the pump is capable of, reducing the discharge size can not make the pump produce a higher pressure. Physics and stuff. If you hook the pump to a positive pressure water source like a hydrant that has a higher flow rate than the pump's rating then it may boost the pressure somewhat. Wildland fire nozzles are rated from 50psi to 100psi depending on the nozzle to achieve their rated gallons per minute or GPM and the best performance. A nozzle is matched to the pumps pressure and volume. Still a small fog nozzle made more for industrial use (read plastic nozzle) should work OK with a 1 1/2" pump. Just don't expect much throw.

So there is a trade off between volume (GPH or GPM) and pressure (head pressure or rated pressure). As your need for pressure rises because your fire (and nozzle) is 20' higher than the pump then the volume goes down. There is nothing you can do about this with an inexpensive portable pump. Also if your nozzle has adjustable gallonage and you open it up because the fire is getting bigger, then the pressure, your throw, goes down. This is why you see so many 1 1/2" pumps supplying 1" hose on the back of fire trailers. The operator needs to keep his pressure at the maximum the pump will put out. On the other hand with a water trailer (aka water buffalo) designed for contractor use the hose will be 1 1/2" because the need is for a large volume of water to the construction project.

Purpose built wildland fire pumps are rated up to 450psi. This is because there is a need to overcome friction loss in long hose lays and also to pump uphill. Very long hose lays may have several pumps (and portable tanks) all pumping in tandem. Those pumps are expensive (and finicky). Those are the multi stage pumps that were mentioned above.

So how to simplify this? Buy a Honda WH15 or a WH20. I also think I saw an ad in the latest Loggers' World for someone up your way selling a Honda powered fire pump for about $1,500.00. I hadn't finished reading that issue when I ended up giving to a friend of mine.

Oh and don't buy a trash pump unless it is one of Nate's nuclear powered ones.


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## madhatte

2dogs said:


> Oh and don't buy a trash pump unless it is one of Nate's nuclear powered ones.



All of the above was 100% correct except for this one detail: I don't do nuclear any more.


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## 2dogs

madhatte said:


> All of the above was 100% correct except for this one detail: I don't do nuclear any more.


Nate's house is on the EPA's Super Fund list. All because he wanted to be like that Boy Scout.


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## northmanlogging

Thanks 2dogs, this is what I was looking for.

so for short hose and mostly level it might work, but I'd be better off getting a proper "high" pressure pump.


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## HuskStihl

2dogs said:


> Northy how can I say this politely...uhm most everything written here is wrong. No offense guys but this was my profession for many years. Like Nate said the difference between a trash pump and a fire pump is the clearance inside the pump.(There is also a general purpose water pump between these two the can vary from cheapo plastic housings to very high quality pumps). As was stated a trash pump is meant to pump solids about half the diameter of the discharge. A 3" trash pump will pass solids a little smaller the 1 1/2" diameter. A "high pressure" pump made for fire fighting needs to pump clear water, not even sand, or it will wear out fast. I put high pressure in quotes because that term has no standard definition outside the fire service. Most consumer and industrial portable pumps are rated in gallons per hour AND head pressure. The two have to be considered together. Gallons per hour or GPH means how much water the pump puts out when drafting (using hard suction hose and with a water source at the same elevation as the pump and at or near sea level). Head pressure means how much force the water stream has to overcome positive elevation change. One foot of elevation equal to .433psi. This can be rounded up to 1/2psi per foot. So if a pump is rated at 80 feet of head pressure then it can put out around 40psi. This is all the pump is capable of, reducing the discharge size can not make the pump produce a higher pressure. Physics and stuff. If you hook the pump to a positive pressure water source like a hydrant that has a higher flow rate than the pump's rating then it may boost the pressure somewhat. Wildland fire nozzles are rated from 50psi to 100psi depending on the nozzle to achieve their rated gallons per minute or GPM and the best performance. A nozzle is matched to the pumps pressure and volume. Still a small fog nozzle made more for industrial use (read plastic nozzle) should work OK with a 1 1/2" pump. Just don't expect much throw.
> 
> So there is a trade off between volume (GPH or GPM) and pressure (head pressure or rated pressure). As your need for pressure rises because your fire (and nozzle) is 20' higher than the pump then the volume goes down. There is nothing you can do about this with an inexpensive portable pump. Also if your nozzle has adjustable gallonage and you open it up because the fire is getting bigger, then the pressure, your throw, goes down. This is why you see so many 1 1/2" pumps supplying 1" hose on the back of fire trailers. The operator needs to keep his pressure at the maximum the pump will put out. On the other hand with a water trailer (aka water buffalo) designed for contractor use the hose will be 1 1/2" because the need is for a large volume of water to the construction project.
> 
> Purpose built wildland fire pumps are rated up to 450psi. This is because there is a need to overcome friction loss in long hose lays and also to pump uphill. Very long hose lays may have several pumps (and portable tanks) all pumping in tandem. Those pumps are expensive (and finicky). Those are the multi stage pumps that were mentioned above.
> 
> So how to simplify this? Buy a Honda WH15 or a WH20. I also think I saw an ad in the latest Loggers' World for someone up your way selling a Honda powered fire pump for about $1,500.00. I hadn't finished reading that issue when I ended up giving to a friend of mine.
> 
> Oh and don't buy a trash pump unless it is one of Nate's nuclear powered ones.





northmanlogging said:


> Thanks 2dogs, this is what I was looking for.
> 
> so for short hose and mostly level it might work, but I'd be better off getting a proper "high" pressure pump.


IDK. Northy is such a crafty wordsmith that I sometimes can't understand what he is saying. I thought he was looking for a pump to complete a small setup to handle fires (fahrs) that he accidentally started in the course of his logging business in these tinder-dry conditions. North may be independently wealthy, but most gypo's aren't made of money. Given that situation, I'd bet a quality trash pump would work fine. If I've misread, and out leviathanic friend is planning on becoming a part-time woodland fire fighter, then never mind.


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## Gologit

HuskStihl said:


> IDK. Northy is such a crafty wordsmith that I sometimes can't understand what he is saying. I thought he was looking for a pump to complete a small setup to handle fires (fahrs) that he accidentally started in the course of his logging business in these tinder-dry conditions. North may be independently wealthy, but most gypo's aren't made of money. Given that situation, I'd bet a quality trash pump would work fine. If I've misread, and out leviathanic friend is planning on becoming a part-time woodland fire fighter, then never mind.



Uh, Jon? If you gave me a medical opinion I'd recognize the experience, education, and training behind your adice and I'd probably do exactly what you said. Not knowing as much as you do I'd be foolish to argue with you.
If 2Dogs gave me advice on fire related stuff I'd treat his advice the same way as I'd treat yours.


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## slowp

If the intent is to have a fire trailer pump, the pressure required is in The Timber Sale Contract. You might want to visit your Darrington ranger station for requirements.


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## Skeans

We have both a trash pump tank and one with a high pressure pump to be legal, the trash pump is mainly used to washing equipment well on the jobs. Seems like the fire pump with a 25 horse Honda was around a grand a few years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HuskStihl

Gologit said:


> Uh, Jon? If you gave me a medical opinion I'd recognize the experience, education, and training behind your adice and I'd probably do exactly what you said. Not knowing as much as you do I'd be foolish to argue with you.
> If 2Dogs gave me advice on fire related stuff I'd treat his advice the same way as I'd treat yours.


Not even remotely questioning the honorable 2-dogs' fire-fighting knowledge and advice, merely wondering about northy's needs. I know nothing about fahr's, but am quite expert at running a small business (and thus somewhat protective of fellow small business owners) and diligently containing costs. If Northy doesn't need a $2k pump, he shouldn't buy one. If I was mistaken, and he is intending on being a fire fighter, then by all means get the pump which will overcome long hose runs and elevation changes


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## Gologit

HuskStihl said:


> Not even remotely questioning the honorable 2-dogs' fire-fighting knowledge and advice, merely wondering about northy's needs. I know nothing about fahr's, but am quite expert at running a small business (and thus somewhat protective of fellow small business owners) and diligently containing costs. If Northy doesn't need a $2k pump, he shouldn't buy one. If I was mistaken, and he is intending on being a fire fighter, then by all means get the pump which will overcome long hose runs and elevation changes



True, a guy doesn't want to spend unnecessary money. Man, I sure understand _that._
But when buying fire equipment the cost difference between "might work" and "will work" is all you're really spending. When you're dealing with something that might save your life or the lives of others a few extra dollars shouldn't be a consideration.
Whenever we bought pumps we'd always get something just a little larger and more powerful than we thought we might need. When the time came to use them...and it always did eventually...we were very glad to have the extra power.


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## 2dogs

slowp said:


> If the intent is to have a fire trailer pump, the pressure required is in The Timber Sale Contract. You might want to visit your Darrington ranger station for requirements.


Despite my lengthy post slowp's advice is really the best. Find out in writing what the requirements are.


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## northmanlogging

slowp said:


> If the intent is to have a fire trailer pump, the pressure required is in The Timber Sale Contract. You might want to visit your Darrington ranger station for requirements.



Well that pretty much settles it then, I doubt that the FS is going to be ok with a cobbled together hunk of scrap (unless I paint it first). And I'm almost certain the pressure rating is going to be more then the 40psi I could "maybe" squeeze out of a trash pump...

So for know I'll save my pennies and hold out until I find a either a used fire pump for the right price, or get one of the northy tools honda's for around $800. 

I'm currently not working FS or DNR ground, so its a want more then a need... But I have gotten some invitations to bid, (to big for this dummy)... So in reality a cobbled together pump would be better then nothing... but it does need to work, and work correctly.

Thanks again gang! and welcome back Ms.P


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## BeatCJ

Edit: My post was based on my misunderstanding. I apologize for the way I started it. The last paragraph can probably stand on it's own, though.



2dogs said:


> Northy how can I say this politely...uhm most everything written here is wrong. No offense guys but this was my profession for many years.



I know it's not the intention, but I am offended. I know, I've only been doing this for 27 years, so what I am saying does have some room for error. I have built (plumbed on tanks I spec'ed) 2 slide in units, one survived many inspections on federal fires. It is still in use, but we make more sending out Type 5's with 400 gallons and keeping the Type 6 at home. It's on it's third chassis, now. Since it wears brakes less with 1600 lbs less water, and even this time of year we run about 75-80% EMS calls, we're OK with that.

Spending the money on a "Fire" pump is great, if you have access to the budget. But many less expensive pumps will meet the expressed needs. The way I read it, he's looking for something to catch his mistakes quickly. Decent flow, decent pressure from most pumps will do the job. Minimalist plumbing, a single length of 1"hose and he can be fine.

That said, if it's contract requirements, then slowp's answer is best. I gotta say, the cobbled together crap I see some of the guys using around here as a "fire trailer" makes you wonder why they don't start more fires. I think even they wonder if they will start, if they really need them.

Rant off, I feel so much better.


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## Hddnis

http://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Fir...pebp=1440209189842&perid=1MYGXS3Y5QZ98MX6WBMY

I've got one of these getting shipped to me right now. One of my Honda powered pumps sucked a rock and broke the impeller, we need to get that skid unit back up and going so we're going to try this pump out.

This is another option I considered, looks like basically the same pump.a
http://www.carrollstream.com/1_1_2_inch_High_Pressure_Water_Pump_p/40zb60-4.8qt.htm

I've build a few units that have cast iron Hypro centrifugal pumps, with a v-belt speed increaser. They go to 130psi and move at least 100gpm using Briggs 9hp motors.

On trash pumps...
Good volume, no pressure.
Some of the water transfer pumps do alright. I've got one that makes about 46psi and it will hold its own as a fire pump on level ground with shorter hoses. But once you add in a hill and 200'+ feet of hose it really falls off performance wise.



Mr. HE


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## catbuster

I still stand behind the smaller the hose you run at a specific GPM the more pressure and throw you get at the nozzle. The velocity of the water increases. F=MA. Physics and stuff, you know? It won't change the pressure at the pump. I'm a newbie by your standards at 11 years of this. I did, however, get an engineering degree along the way, which means oodles and oodles of dynamic physics classes... But you even said that in your post. I think you misinterpreted what we were all saying.


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## northmanlogging

Bugged the local saw shop guys, they can order a transfer pump that runs 50 psi at 3", and something like 250 gpm, only runs like $500 with a honda motor. Choke it down to 1.5" hose and a fire nozzle on the end a 270 gallon tote might last more then 3 minutes... Or split it to tw0 2 1" lines...

This may be the route I end up going.

Seriously though same pump on C's list $800?


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## 2dogs

catbuster said:


> I still stand behind the smaller the hose you run at a specific GPM the more pressure and throw you get at the nozzle. The velocity of the water increases. F=MA. Physics and stuff, you know? It won't change the pressure at the pump. I'm a newbie by your standards at 11 years of this. I did, however, get an engineering degree along the way, which means oodles and oodles of dynamic physics classes... But you even said that in your post. I think you misinterpreted what we were all saying.



You can not get any more pressure than what the pump is rated for by decreasing the diameter of the hose. You have to understand how a centrifugal pump works. The impellor spins inside the curved pump housing even when water is not flowing. This is called 100% slippage. (The opposite type pump where water must flow is called a positive displacement pump). The maximum pressure developed is here in the volute and decreases further from the pump, i.e. as the discharge hose is lengthened (on level ground) due to friction loss. An example might be the pump has a 1 1/2" discharge flowing at 50 psi at the pump. You put a 1/4" smooth bore nozzle on the end of 100' of 1 1/2" hose. The pressure will never exceed 50 psi at the nozzle. Changing the hose to 1" diameter can not increase the nozzle pressure above 50psi. Any pump Northy buys will have a pressure/volume chart. As the pressure goes up the volume goes down.

Fire pumps are expensive because the tolerances are minimal and the pump has to be durable. Still, you can get a decent portable pump for $1,500.00 or a bit less. (I like spending other peoples money). Substituting an inexpensive general purpose pump or a slightly more expensive trash pump for a rated fire pump may give the user a false sense of security at best or set him up for a disaster at worst. Like slowp said "Trust but verify". I think she said that anyway.


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## 2dogs

northmanlogging said:


> Bugged the local saw shop guys, they can order a transfer pump that runs 50 psi at 3", and something like 250 gpm, only runs like $500 with a honda motor. Choke it down to 1.5" hose and a fire nozzle on the end a 270 gallon tote might last more then 3 minutes... Or split it to tw0 2 1" lines...
> 
> This may be the route I end up going.
> 
> Seriously though same pump on C's list $800?



Northman if you buy a wildland nozzle, that is a dual gallonage aluminum nozzle designed for firefghting, it will usually be 60 GPM on the high setting and 20 GPM on the low setting. This is at 100 psi nozzle pressure. It is likely you will be flowing 20-40 GPM with a small pump on the high setting and 100' of hose. If you buy an inexpensive plastic nozzle if will be a single gallonage type and will flow around 20-30 GPM but with a poor quality stream. It is what you will find on most water buffalos and should work OK for your use.


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## catbuster

2dogs said:


> You can not get any more pressure than what the pump is rated for by decreasing the diameter of the hose. You have to understand how a centrifugal pump works. The impellor spins inside the curved pump housing even when water is not flowing. This is called 100% slippage. (The opposite type pump where water must flow is called a positive displacement pump). The maximum pressure developed is here in the volute and decreases further from the pump, i.e. as the discharge hose is lengthened (on level ground) due to friction loss. An example might be the pump has a 1 1/2" discharge flowing at 50 psi at the pump. You put a 1/4" smooth bore nozzle on the end of 100' of 1 1/2" hose. The pressure will never exceed 50 psi at the nozzle. Changing the hose to 1" diameter can not increase the nozzle pressure above 50psi. Any pump Northy buys will have a pressure/volume chart. As the pressure goes up the volume goes down.
> 
> Fire pumps are expensive because the tolerances are minimal and the pump has to be durable. Still, you can get a decent portable pump for $1,500.00 or a bit less. (I like spending other peoples money). Substituting an inexpensive general purpose pump or a slightly more expensive trash pump for a rated fire pump may give the user a false sense of security at best or set him up for a disaster at worst. Like slowp said "Trust but verify". I think she said that anyway.



I understand centrifugal pumps. I've torn enough of them down and rebuilt them to grasp that. But the thing is, the physics there aren't even happening at the pump.

It's physically impossible to keep the pressure the same if the velocity of the water increases. It's that simple. You're not increasing pressure at the pump, you are simply increasing the velocity of the water to keep the GPM the same, which makes the pressure go up. Pressure is a force, you convert volume to mass and the acceleration cannot remain the same. It's pretty simple. The nozzle may not allow it, but the physics behind it are sound, not that theoretical fluid dynamics matter at all to this discussion.


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## 2dogs

catbuster said:


> I understand centrifugal pumps. I've torn enough of them down and rebuilt them to grasp that. But the thing is, the physics there aren't even happening at the pump.
> 
> It's physically impossible to keep the pressure the same if the velocity of the water increases. It's that simple. You're not increasing pressure at the pump, you are simply increasing the velocity of the water to keep the GPM the same, which makes the pressure go up. Pressure is a force, you convert volume to mass and the acceleration cannot remain the same. It's pretty simple. The nozzle may not allow it, but the physics behind it are sound, not that theoretical fluid dynamics matter at all to this discussion.


That is not the way it works. If you attempt to reduce the diameter of the discharge hose but keep the same discharge volume then the pressure has to be increased. You can not do this without increasing the pump's "power". This can not be done with the type of portable pump we are talking about. (It is like saying that you can take a small cheap Chinese made Husky chainsaw and put on a four foot bar and an 8 tooth sprocket and go fall trees with it. The power just isn't there to turn that big heavy chain. Getting the chain up to speed might be possible but as soon as contact is made with the wood then the chain slows down too much to cut and the clutch starts to slip).

The difference of course is that the portable pump runs flat out all the time and the pressure/volume relationship is charted at full throttle. In a liquid the pressure is the same in all locations measured. This means pressure readings are taken with water flowing and no elevation change. The only real variables have to do with friction/appliance loss. Yes in theory slight changes can occur in certain circumstances, read venturi, but then velocity increases and pressure goes down. In simpler terms more "force" can not be applied to the water by a portable pump. Think about the fire engine you work on. You probably have an engineer's pump chart, aka a cheat sheet, somewhere the engineer can look at a 03:00 when his brain is only half awake. If he needs more volume then he cranks up the rpm and the pressure relief valve and adjusts his discharge gates as needed. In other words he applies more "force" by burning more fuel.


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## hanniedog

Northman check out gov surplus in your area for used fire equipment.


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## Marshy

Sounds to me like you need to know what the requirements are for the build. You need to answer what is the minimum GPM, PSI and length if hose you will use? You will also need to know the maximum elevation difference you will use the hose relative to the pump.

Once you answer the above questions you can do some basic math and figure out the size of your pump. When looking at pumps you should look at the performance curve of the pump. It will tell you what the discharge pressure will be developed at a certain GPM. That same curve will also tell you what the required HP is and most importantly, require net positive suction head NPSHr (inlet pressure).

Everything in the first paragraph needs to be known to build a proper system. If you build a system incorrectly and size it wrong it might work right on flat ground but not at all if you drag a 100' hose up a 25% grade.

Of course you could just oversize everything if you do not know the engineering side of it. That is completely acceptable to some people, the downside is the added cost I buying equipment you don't really need. That's a personal call.


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## northmanlogging

Ok so what I can figure out here, and what I was originally not assuming is that given a certain amount of flow and head, you can increase pressure by decreasing hose/nozzle size. I get this from the old gold dredging method of piping water down hill and necking it down, no pumps involved. The unrelenting force of gravity being the power generator. This method works because there is usually a large pond or catch basin several hundred feet above where the water jet is stationed, several hundred feet of water in a large enough pipe, hooked to the bottom of a pond could potentially be hundreds of pounds of pressure.

With a centrifugal pump, and this is the guts of the original question, the force is supplied by making the water move through faking gravity. But since said pump can only turn so fast, and it will have necessary clearances for the use in questionable water, the finale pressure can only be what the pump can handle at the pump. Necking it down does not work since any extra pressure gets lost in the clearance of the pump, by not allowing more water to come through the inlet only so much can leave the pump at one time. Ultimately you are limited by how much water the pump can move through whatever line you intend to use, necking it down will only cause you to use less water per minute, which is a good thing in the end. Also velocity will not change, being that pressure has to increase to increase the velocity... its a catch 22. 

So the question now...

Is 50 psi enough to use up to 200' of hose, at 25% slope up hill? This would be the absolute extreme use of said pump, any more then that and hopefully the fire dept is on there way...


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## 2dogs

Slope is calculated as rise over run. Therefore .25 equals X over 200, X equals 50'. A 3 in 12 roof has a slope of 25%.

So water flowing uphill will have to overcome head pressure. This is 1/2 psi per foot of elevation gained. In addition water flowing through a hose will suffer friction loss due to the roughness of the hose. The standard calc for 1 1/2" hose at 60 gpm and 100 psi nozzle pressure is 13 psi per 100'. In your case let's just say your friction loss will be 5 psi per 100'.

So starting with 50 psi at the pump let's deduct friction loss , 2X5, or a 10 psi loss. Now your nozzle pressure is 40 psi. Ok so let's take the nozzle up the slope till we run out of hose. We have walked uphill 200' and have gained 50' of elevation. Head pressure has robbed us of .5 X 50 or 25 psi more. Now you are down to 15 psi at the nozzle. I am guessing here but that will probably result in the nozzle throwing water about 15 feet. So nope, a 50 psi pump won't work in this case


----------



## Hddnis

I'll just wade in again to say that 2dogs is right on all this stuff.

The post above mine where he works it out to 15psi at the nozzle is a great example of why fire pumps can make higher pressure, they have to be able to do it just to get the water where it is needed with usable pressure.

Velocity in the hose can only come from pressure at the pump. You simply can't use a smaller hose and get more throw from a nozzle. There is no equation or "physics stuff" out there where that works, period. Higher velocity out of a hose without a nozzle can be achieved with a smaller hose, up to the limit of the pump. But once you put a nozzle on the end the smaller hose immediately starts to work against you, because the velocity is generated by the compression of the nozzle acting on the flow of water.

Bottom line as I see it is: A "low pressure" pump is better than a bucket, but for practical use more pressure is better. I personally consider 125psi a minimum for fire protection. I've seen specs where 200psi was the minimum on contracts and others that simply refer to forest service specs.

So that brings us to wildland engine specs.

Lowest rating I could find said 8gpm at 65psi. Others say 10gpm at 100psi for a type 7 engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildland_fire_engine

http://www.nps.gov/fire/wildland-fire/learning-center/fire-in-depth/engines.cfm

http://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/pdf/00511203.pdf



Mr. HE


----------



## BeatCJ

If he is dragging 200', it's most likely not 1 1/2", more likely 1". So friction loss will be significantly more, at 30 gpm, 23psi per 100'.

I know, he's a bull, but 1 1/2" hose is best charged after it's laid out.

Northy, let me know, I can probably set you up with 300' of old USFS 1" hose and a couple of red plastic nozzles. It's been stored inside, but I would plan on only getting a season or two out of it. Still, it would be something you wouldn't have to buy right now. It's 1" NPSH thread (like pipe thread but not tapered, black gas line thread).

Do your saw shop guys have access to the pump curve? Most times, as flow decreases, pressure rises. So at 50 psi, that pump is flowing 250 gpm (all numbers pulled from my posterior, generalized, not necessarily accurate). But, at fire flow, 40 - 50 gpm in your case, the pump may be capable of 150 psi. For you, that would give you about 75 psi at the nozzle. Not quite desirable, but it would work. Most fire nozzles are designed to give optimum pattern at 100 psi nozzle pressure.


----------



## northmanlogging

Ya better hang on to that hose for now... might need it this year, though I wouldn't turn it down, I could probably get a lot more then 2 seasons out of an old hose... (get yer mind out of the gutter)


----------



## BeatCJ

northmanlogging said:


> Ya better hang on to that hose for now... might need it this year, though I wouldn't turn it down, I could probably get a lot more then 2 seasons out of an old hose... (get yer mind out of the gutter)



Nope, we won't. We don't use that thread at all. We use almost all standard fire service thread, or the quarter turn sexless couplings DNR uses (take that one to the gutter). I don't really like the quarter turn stuff, the couplings are big knobby things that can get hung up easier on stuff when you are dragging it. It is a lot easier for barely trained kids to figure out, since you don't need to know male threads from female, or 1 1/2" from 1".

Fire service in general uses a much coarser thread, and the end of the thread has what they call a Higbee cut. It's a lot harder to get it cross threaded.

This is stuff that was getting cleared out of a warehouse to be thrown away. Had a red stakebed show up at my office, the boss says to check with you before we haul it to the dump. They don't use threaded hose, the green truck people don't want it back. I gave away a lot of it to other local fire agencies, used it some, but the larger stuff with our threads that we have had on trucks is starting to fail. It's has been stored inside, so it's probably good for a little while.


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## 2dogs

BeatCJ said:


> Nope, we won't. We don't use that thread at all. We use almost all standard fire service thread, or the quarter turn sexless couplings DNR uses (take that one to the gutter). I don't really like the quarter turn stuff, the couplings are big knobby things that can get hung up easier on stuff when you are dragging it. It is a lot easier for barely trained kids to figure out, since you don't need to know male threads from female, or 1 1/2" from 1".
> 
> Fire service in general uses a much coarser thread, and the end of the thread has what they call a Higbee cut. It's a lot harder to get it cross threaded.
> 
> This is stuff that was getting cleared out of a warehouse to be thrown away. Had a red stakebed show up at my office, the boss says to check with you before we haul it to the dump. They don't use threaded hose, the green truck people don't want it back. I gave away a lot of it to other local fire agencies, used it some, but the larger stuff with our threads that we have had on trucks is starting to fail. It's has been stored inside, so it's probably good for a little while.



Grrr! I hate the red truck vs. green truck friction. Cal Fire (red trucks) wants to go direct on every fire. They have lots more burn injuries as a result. They claim they want to keep the fire to minimum size. Plus they carry so much stuff on their type 3s that water tanks and frames are cracking. The USFS (green trucks) don't like to work in the smoke, they have that damn JHA to calculate, and they have more paperwork than congress.


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## BeatCJ

I don't see much of that here, but I rarely work federal fires. I deal with WA DNR all the time, so we have a great relationship. They have jurisdiction on most fires on unimproved property outside of federal ground, so a lot of our fires, we are dispatched by 9-1-1, we call them and they take over when they get there. I try to keep it that way, so when Mrs. Smith is having a heart attack, our staff is available to help her. We can deal with mop up if we need to, but it seems like the best use of resources


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## northmanlogging

BeatCJ said:


> Nope, we won't. We don't use that thread at all. We use almost all standard fire service thread, or the quarter turn sexless couplings DNR uses (take that one to the gutter). I don't really like the quarter turn stuff, the couplings are big knobby things that can get hung up easier on stuff when you are dragging it. It is a lot easier for barely trained kids to figure out, since you don't need to know male threads from female, or 1 1/2" from 1".
> 
> Fire service in general uses a much coarser thread, and the end of the thread has what they call a Higbee cut. It's a lot harder to get it cross threaded.
> 
> This is stuff that was getting cleared out of a warehouse to be thrown away. Had a red stakebed show up at my office, the boss says to check with you before we haul it to the dump. They don't use threaded hose, the green truck people don't want it back. I gave away a lot of it to other local fire agencies, used it some, but the larger stuff with our threads that we have had on trucks is starting to fail. It's has been stored inside, so it's probably good for a little while.



Well if'n yer just going to chuck it then by all means send it this way, Think I have enough in paypal to cover shipping I'll pm ya with an address.


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## BeatCJ

I will try to get it sent Wednesday. I have to get through my honey-do list before my crews get back from their two weeks at the Kettle Complex. We got back from two weeks out, fueled and knocked out the air cleaners, fixed a loose wire in the tail lights and fresh warm bodies went out. I suspect it will be the same turn around, so mama has a list.


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## northmanlogging

I'm considering getting into the black myself next year maybe, have to follow through on some classes and gather some equipment, special pants, special shirts, expensive hats, etc... We'll see day job pretty much said I'd be fired if i wen't whole hog with it... What they don't know is that I figure it will make up for the slow times in logging... and I won't need a day job no more... until then.


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## 2dogs

BeatCJ said:


> If he is dragging 200', it's most likely not 1 1/2", more likely 1". So friction loss will be significantly more, at 30 gpm, 23psi per 100'.
> 
> I know, he's a bull
> 
> Do your saw shop guys have access to the pump curve? Most times, as flow decreases, pressure rises. So at 50 psi, that pump is flowing 250 gpm (all numbers pulled from my posterior, generalized, not necessarily accurate). But, at fire flow, 40 - 50 gpm in your case, the pump may be capable of 150 psi. For you, that would give you about 75 psi at the nozzle. Not quite desirable, but it would work. Most fire nozzles are designed to give optimum pattern at 100 psi nozzle pressure.



I have been sitting on my hands over this post because CJ is a good guy and his first post was right on the money. But here goes. First off he is a bear not a bull. Small matter but let's set the record straight.

Second off, decreasing the diameter of the discharge hose does not increase the nozzle pressure, it decreases it. Again lets talk about water flowing in a hose on level ground, that is no elevation change. Also lets say we are drafting out of Northbear's new water buffalo. (Let's ignore CJ's example of 50 psi and 250 gpm as that would mean a BIG pump, somewhere between 4" and 6" diameter discharge). Let's use a Honda WX20 which is a 2" "high pressure" pump. It pumps roughly 100 gpm at 30 psi and 50 gpm at 50 psi I am guessing it costs around $1,500.00. In addition it will pump a maximum of 61 psi. This means if you have a shutoff nozzle on the end of the hose and you read a pressure gauge at the pump discharge, as you shut the nozzle down it will reach a maximum of 61 psi when the nozzle closes. It does not matter what the diameter of the discharge hose is when no water is flowing. It could be a 3" line.

But let us look at the example of 50 psi and 50 gpm. This pump would have the 2" discharge reduced to use 1 1/2" hose and a 1 1/2" fog nozzle rated at 50 gpm at 50 psi to match the pump's output. As water flows through a hose the internal friction of the water against the hose lining cause a pressure drop called friction loss. All hoses create friction loss. The friction loss we be approximately 10 psi per 100'. Even with only 100' of hose the nozzle can now only flow 40 psi. That is all the water it can get. A drop in nozzle pressure also means a drop in gpm. Now the nozzle is flowing maybe 40 gpm at 40 psi. Reducing the diameter of this hose from 1 1/2" to 1 " means a drastic reduction water flow. Trying to get 60 gpm out of 1" hose would mean something like friction loss of 40 psi per 100' of hose. With a fire engine you could crank the throttle up and force the pressure much higher and make up for that loss. In other words you apply much more energy to the water flowing in the hose. With a fixed RPM 160cc powered pump you can not make that happen.

A centrifugal pump impellor spins in the housing and throws water from its center outward into a curved pump housing called a volute. The spinning impellor touches nothing but water (or air when there is no water) and can only transfer a fixed amount of energy to the water. This energy is interpreted as water pressure. CJ's example of "fire flow" would mean there is more pressure at the nozzle than at the pump. This would mean the water would have to flow backwards until the pressures were equal.

The nozzle pressure will always be equal or more often less than pump pressure. OK there is a way to make the nozzle have a higher pressure than the pump and you guys know what that is. Just let gravity work for you at 1/2 psi per foot. Run the hose down hill till you are 500' below the pump and you will add 250 psi at the nozzle.

Long hose lays uphill require the opposite approach. You will need lots of pumps and relay tanks. Of course as the elevation changes the pumps don't work as well. Anyone know why?


----------



## Marshy

Yeah, power is cubed.


----------



## Gologit

'Cause the dozers keep running over your hose lays?


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## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> 'Cause the dozers keep running over your hose lays?


Every dozer I ever worked with on a fire was as careful as possible. They would push up a mound of soil as pile it on the hose lay and drive over it. Of course I never worked with you.


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## northmanlogging

northybear... mehhuh...huh, huh..


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## Eccentric

At higher elevations there is less oxygen in the air. Less oxygen in the air means less power from the pumps engine.


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## 2dogs

Eccentric said:


> At higher elevations there is less oxygen in the air. Less oxygen in the air means less power from the pumps engine.


Close but no cigar. Hi Aaron


----------



## Marshy

Eccentric said:


> At higher elevations there is less oxygen in the air. Less oxygen in the air means less power from the pumps engine.


And the relationship between flow and HP is to the 3rd power. So a 10% reduction in HP will reduce flow by about 4%. However, a 10% reduction in HP will cause a about a 7% reduction in pressure. Pump affinity laws, good stuff. Change in flow is proportional to change in pressure squared. Change in flow is proportional to change in HP cubed.


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## 2dogs

Marshy said:


> And the relationship between flow and HP is to the 3rd power. So a 10% reduction in HP will reduce flow by about 4%. However, a 10% reduction in HP will cause a about a 7% reduction in pressure. Pump affinity laws, good stuff. Change in flow is proportional to change in pressure squared. Change in flow is proportional to change in HP cubed.


Sorry.


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## Marshy

Not necessary to be sorry. Those are the pump laws, they don't care.

HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000


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## 2dogs

No I mean sorry you didn't win the grand prize. Keep working!


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## Marshy

Your questions could be clearer IMO. Maybe I didn't read it right?

By changing the resistance of the system you move back on the curve. With centrifugal pumps you can reach shutoff (dead head) from adding more hose or adding elevation at the discharge. The higher you go up with the discharge the less flow and pressure you will get.


----------



## BeatCJ

2dogs said:


> I have been sitting on my hands over this post because CJ is a good guy and his first post was right on the money. But here goes. First off he is a bear not a bull. Small matter but let's set the record straight.


I accept the correction. Thank You. My thought was that I had never seen a bear hitched to a load, but I have seen logging done with oxen.



2dogs said:


> Long hose lays uphill require the opposite approach. You will need lots of pumps and relay tanks. Of course as the elevation changes the pumps don't work as well. Anyone know why?


Something like Starlings Law? Cardiac Preload?
A couple of weeks ago we pumped a 2800' trunk with one BB-4. Only used a few nozzles at a time, but it worked fine.

And FWIW, I have never had a dozer run over one of my lines. Several times we have had engines run over them and drive crushed rock through them, though.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> Every dozer I ever worked with on a fire was as careful as possible. They would push up a mound of soil as pile it on the hose lay and drive over it. Of course I never worked with you.


 
I've never run over an active hose lay. Sometimes though, if things get a little confused and a crew moves on and somebody else is supposed to come along and roll hoses and they don't show up and it's night time and we're just plain damn tired of building speed bumps over the hoses and we remember the last time we had to listen to somebody snivel because the speed bumps were too high and it took them too long to dig their hoses out 0r it's several days past cutting line and we're into remediation and the damned hoses are still out there and everybody you've mentioned it to has ignored the information...well, you know. Things happen.


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## 2dogs

Marshy said:


> Your questions could be clearer IMO. Maybe I didn't read it right?
> 
> By changing the resistance of the system you move back on the curve. With centrifugal pumps you can reach shutoff (dead head) from adding more hose or adding elevation at the discharge. The higher you go up with the discharge the less flow and pressure you will get.



Clearer? Nope intentionally vague. Pumps...elevation...you work it out. The prize makes it all worthwhile.


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## 2dogs

Gologit said:


> I've never run over an active hose lay. Sometimes though, if things get a little confused and a crew moves on and somebody else is supposed to come along and roll hoses and they don't show up and it's night time and we're just plain damn tired of building speed bumps over the hoses and we remember the last time we had to listen to somebody snivel because the speed bumps were too high and it took them too long to dig their hoses out 0r it's several days past cutting line and we're into remediation and the damned hoses are still out there and everybody you've mentioned it to has ignored the information...well, you know. Things happen.


You neglected to mention how you enjoyed every minute of driving over the hose.


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## Gologit

Hose? What hose?


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## Marshy

2dogs said:


> Clearer? Nope intentionally vague. Pumps...elevation...you work it out. The prize makes it all worthwhile.


Haha ok, already did.


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## Eccentric

2dogs said:


> Close but no cigar. Hi Aaron




Hiya Bill. Alright enlighten us once more. The suspense is killin' me.


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## 2dogs

Has to do with the weight of...


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## Hddnis

Are you referring to the loss of vacuum level before cavitation at higher elevations reducing capacity on the suction side of the pump?



Mr. HE


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## 2dogs

Close but cavitation doesn't play into it. Try rephrasing your response.


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## HuskStihl

Water is heavy?


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## Marshy

I mentioned NPSH already...


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## BeatCJ

HuskStihl said:


> Water is heavy?


Of course it is. Ever drop a a 5 gallon pail on your toe. Even booted up it'll make you pause to control your vocabulary if you have your grandkids around.

And a bigger chunk will make tears run down both legs.


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## 2dogs

BeatCJ said:


> Of course it is.
> 
> And a bigger chunk will make tears run down both legs.



That is not tears running down your legs.


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## Cfaller

As you go up in elevation you loose atmospheric pressure. So at sea level you have 14.7 psi pushing water into your pump once it grabs it. At 10000 feet you have 10 psi of air pressure pushing the water into your pump. This becomes a problem when pump testing fire trucks. Also you loose some performance as water temps increase.


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## 2dogs

Cfaller said:


> As you go up in elevation you loose atmospheric pressure. So at sea level you have 14.7 psi pushing water into your pump once it grabs it. At 10000 feet you have 10 psi of air pressure pushing the water into your pump. This becomes a problem when pump testing fire trucks. Also you loose some performance as water temps increase.


Cfaller takes the gold! Yep it is the weight of the air column that pushes water up the suction hose. Less weight means less ability to draft.

Cfaller pm me your address and I will ship your prize out as soon as possible.


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## Marshy

Alright, I'll give you this one.  I will say that although I did mention NPSH I did not mention how changing elevation impacts it. However, if you were designing a pump system to be built you would take that into consideration and design it for the environmental conditions. However, if you bought an existing pump/system and wanted to use it at higher elevations you definitely should consider the impact. Most of my pump experience is with stationary systems and not ones that change elevation. Here is a good graph and article explaining suction head loss vs elevation. You can see that you lose 9 ft of suction head loss by going from sea level to 8000 ft. 




http://www.grpumps.com/educationsafety/article/1447


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## muddstopper

Well, I wandered over here again by mistake, but I might have a suggestion for a fire fighting pump. I used to do hydroseeding, so I have sprayed a little water a time or two. Now most of your hydroseeing companies use a souped up trash pump for spraying out the slurry. Unlike a regular trash pump the intake which will have the same size entrance and exit ports, the hydroseeding pumps will use a larger suction port. My old finn had a 3x2 centrifical pump. The suction port was 3in dia and the discharge was 2 inch. Now I know every body is concerned about running long hose, well my Finn with a 25hp kholer engine would pump a thick hydroseeding slurry thru 400ft of 1 1/2 inch hose on level ground and still spray a stream out the nozzle of around 100ft, giving me about a 500ft reach from tank. Going up hill on steep slopes, 30*-40* I could reach as far with the spray pattern with 100 ft of hose as I could if I used 200ft of hose. Going uphill sucks dragging a 1 1/2in hose full of hydroseeding slurry. Pumping vertical I could get close to 200ft which suggest a pressure close to 100psi and I would guess that to be pretty close, altho I never checked to see what the actual pressure was. So I guess my suggestion for someone wanting a fire rig, look at a used hydroseeder, I would stay away from the cheap plastic kind simply because, even tho you are just spraying water, the pumps arent really up to pumping uphill. The Finn's with the centrifical pumps will probably pump as far as you would need to, and if you really want someting that will build a ton of pressure, look for a machine with a bowie gear pump. Bowie, Turfmaker, Kincaid are just a few manufacturers that use the bowie gear pumps. Turboturf also makes a plastic tanked machine that uses a bowie gear pump and because of weight might be the best rig to look for in this situation. Used hydroseeders are fairly reasonable and easy to find. They already have a engine, pump, tank and are often already trailer mounted. Any of the machines I listed would empty a 500gal tank in about 5 or 6 minutes if unchecked, so flow shouldnt be a problem. And added advantage would be that when it came time to reseed your skid roads, you could throw some seed in the tank and spray it on the areas to steep to put your other equipment on. 

Alright, going back to cutting firewood and being a old fart now.


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## 2dogs

A pump with a 25hp motor on it is a powerful pump. The only way to really know the pressure is with a pitot gauge and a smooth bore nozzle. The Scout camp I volunteer at needs a water buffalo or a fire trailer but a hydroseeding trailer sounds interesting. Where are those things advertised for sale?


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## muddstopper

I just did a google search for used hydroseeders and hundreds showed up. I would try Craigslist and even Ebay. From what I saw in the machinery trader type listings, most where for mostly large, expensive machines. Hydroseeders come in all sizes from 100gal up to 4000gal maybe even larger. Lots of folks get into the hydroseeing business thinking they will make it rich. They find out it isnt as easy as spraying some seed and water on the ground and soon go bust, and that equipment can usually be bought pretty cheap. On the hydroseeding.org forum, they usually have lots of used hydroseeders for sale and I know Ray Badger of Turboturf, takes in lots of tradein's and usually sales those pretty reasonable. He's located in Penn, so shipping to Ca. might be prohibitive. He also builds specialty spray rigs, but I dont know if fire fighting rigs are part of what he sales. I see all kinds of hydroseeders setting out in the weed patches not being used. Heck, I have a old 500gal, skid mount, machine setting out back, no engine, but the tank and pump should still be good. If someone wanted to build a fire tanker, it would make a good candidate, just mount a engine. Probably not worth the price of shipping. I have already robbed the engine for my wood splitter and have plans for the rest of the hydraulics as well.


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## 2dogs

Thanks!


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## northmanlogging

muddstopper said:


> I just did a google search for used hydroseeders and hundreds showed up. I would try Craigslist and even Ebay. From what I saw in the machinery trader type listings, most where for mostly large, expensive machines. Hydroseeders come in all sizes from 100gal up to 4000gal maybe even larger. Lots of folks get into the hydroseeing business thinking they will make it rich. They find out it isnt as easy as spraying some seed and water on the ground and soon go bust, and that equipment can usually be bought pretty cheap. On the hydroseeding.org forum, they usually have lots of used hydroseeders for sale and I know Ray Badger of Turboturf, takes in lots of tradein's and usually sales those pretty reasonable. He's located in Penn, so shipping to Ca. might be prohibitive. He also builds specialty spray rigs, but I dont know if fire fighting rigs are part of what he sales. I see all kinds of hydroseeders setting out in the weed patches not being used. Heck, I have a old 500gal, skid mount, machine setting out back, no engine, but the tank and pump should still be good. If someone wanted to build a fire tanker, it would make a good candidate, just mount a engine. Probably not worth the price of shipping. I have already robbed the engine for my wood splitter and have plans for the rest of the hydraulics as well.



Engines are easy... what you want for the rest of it. Or at least the pump... Tanks are easy too.


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## muddstopper

I'll let the pump go pretty cheap, if its still good. It was rebuilt once about a year before I put it out to pasture, what kind of shape its in now, I would have to do an inspection first. I am due to have shoulder surgery in the morning so it might be a while before I could even take it off. If your still interested in it in about a month, remind me and I will take a look at it to see if its even worth having. I think the shipping cost for the whole thing would make it not worth the buying, but the pump could go UPS or Fedex fairly reasonable. I would venture to guess you could buy a 275 gal tote cheaper than you could pay the freight on the tank.


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## northmanlogging

Yup totes on C's lift $75 and up with or without the cage. Sometimes you can find a decent poly water tank or old fuel tank for cheap too.

There is an old... I mean OLD pump near me for cheap, but motor is not running so I haven't moved on it yet.


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## muddstopper

The biggest thing to look out for in a old pump is rust and is it busted from freezing. You take a old pump that has rusted stuck, take it apart and polish up the volute and impeller, make sure the bearings or bushings are free, replace a seal or two, and it will work like new. Unless its a gear pump and then all bets are off. About the only thing that does wear out in those old (centrifical) pumps are shaft seals and bearings because of leaking seals. My old bowie hydroseeder also had the centrifical pump instead of the gear pump. Dam thing would spray more water around the shaft than it would the hose nozzle. It had a old rope type seal to keep the water in. The old bearing had to be greased everyday. I went thru the bearing parts book and found sealed bearing that would fit and a teflon/kelar rope seal to seal around the shaft. That thing would spray 200ft out the cannon and empty a 1100gal tank of hydroseeding slurry in about 6 or 7 min. Thats not to say the volute or impellers dont wear out, but a hydroseeding pump is required to be able to spay out a slurry of fiber mulch, seed, fertilizers and lime. These are all big wear factors and I have seen the volutes, impellers, as well as the pump housing, worn thin from those materials. A fire pump sprays water, not near as erosive material as passes thru a hydroseedng pump or a trash pump. I would suspect a regular firepump would last a pretty long time.


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## northmanlogging

Yeah the pump I'm not worried much about, but the engine it comes with doesn't currently run... so a $200 waste of money if I can't make it go.


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## muddstopper

I can give another suggestion for you if you cant find a firepump or good hydroseedor pump. I used to drag as much as 400ft of hose up and down the side of the mountains to spray my hydroseeding slurry. Of course going downhill you would gain pressure, but trying to work up hill was a real pain dealing with the pressure drops. What I would do to get to that last few hundred feet of a steep area was to install another trash pump in my hose line. The hydroseeder would pump as far as it could into the suction side of the trash pump and the trash pump would push the slurry to the end of the hose line. Since I needed a small trash pump to fill my machines anyways, I always had a extra pump on hand. With the snap lock couplings, it was only a matter of unconnecting the hose at the end of somewhere in the middle of the run and snapping the trash pump in between the hoses. I bought my hose in 100ft lenghts so I had couplings every 100ft.


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## northmanlogging

Not a bad Idear there.

Found a good older fire pump in eastern WA. hopefully its still around when I get paid in a few weeks... No hoses but its an old Hale... say its a runner.


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## muddstopper

You know, if your only needing the fire fighting equipment for that small logging job you are considering, it might just make sense to rent a couple of small pumps from a rental place and hooking them up in tandem as described. Rental companies should have the hoses you would need also.


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## northmanlogging

Its a full time want, at least in the summer, every summer I get super anxious about fire... The brush around these parts is thick, and summers have been getting drier every year. been a couple of decent sized brush fires within miles of here, not to mention the New Halem, and Jumbo fires are really quite big and not nearly far enough away for comfort. The ground is steep, so when the fires do start there really isn't much anyone can do about them except cross yer fingers and hope they go out... so far so good, but what happens when we have a usual Sept. where its just cold and dry until Oct, and all these fire don't go out? 

Not to mention that logging starts enough fires on its own as to be more then a little hazardous to ones health. Its also a requirement to have one on standby for DNR or FS work in summertime, So even though I don't generally work gov ground, there is usually a reason for what they require you to have on hand.


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## northmanlogging

So I decided to step into a pawn shop today, and ran across this little beauty.

Got er home and fired it up (pawn shop didn't have no guzzeline). But I don't currently have any hose... So's I make's some calls.




This is one of my clients left them a bunch of piles of limbs to deal with, so he decided to burn them, and figured He should maybe need a swimming pool and a fire pump... just incase...

Anyway took a little fiddling to get it hooked up, but this is the result.





Also on the left is my old tractor... fresh paint, new loader, worked over 3 pt, and hydraulics, everything I wanted to do to her but never had time.


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## muddstopper

Those pumps are pretty good pumps, but they can sometimes be a pain to prime. I would keep my eyes open for another one and you can hook them in tandem for those long hose runs up hill. The distance you are spraying up in your picture is about how far they can pump up hill so keep that in mind if you plan on running long lines up the side of a mountain.


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## northmanlogging

the fast idle is stuck on it right now (just a sticky bolt), once that is fixed it should go another 20 feet or so, and it was running 2" hose... kinda... sort of a goofy set up. Good enough for what he's planning for it, and good enough for testing. As a side note one of the big piles got going back in July, all he had at the time was a garden hose... They almost didn't get it out. Hence the fire pump.

Working on getting some proper hose for it, found a place online that sells 75' lengths used for like $56. pressure tested etc. They have junk hose for cheaper, but they have holes and what not in em.


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## northmanlogging

geepers... nearly a year later...

Got one of them icb totes today for $60, lately they've gone up to 100-200 (for basically garbage), anyway this ones a 330 gallon version. FS says you need 300 gal minimum.

anyhow, got hose, got nozzle, gots a tank, and gots a pump.

Need a couple of miscellaneous adapters and a suction hose, and should have it running in a week or two, just in time for the 4th of July madness, most of this stuff is available at the hardware store.

can't remember what I paid for the pump, like 180 or so, but so far I'm into it far less then 700, hose was a big hit at like 240 or sumthing, with a bunch of adapters and wrenches, hose alone would have been right around 110 or so (2 75' hoses)


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## rwoods

Can't believe I just read this whole thread (a subject I know very little) and didn't notice to the end that it is almost ancient history. Now that I am here I will quote 2Dogs and throw in my less than two cents .



2dogs said:


> Northy how can I say this politely... .
> 
> So how to simplify this? Buy a Honda WH15 or a WH20. ... .



Years ago I bought a WH20X to provide fire protection for my cabin, but soon came to realized some of that pressure and elevation stuff. So I gathered the components to hook it to a tote to be placed in the back of the old FJ40 but family life intervened and it became just one of many shelved projects. I have used the pump several times though - to drain the pond. Not its intended use but you make do with what you got, right?

Great little pump by the way.

Ron


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## northmanlogging

pump assembled and tested, nearly burned a hole in the shiny new suction hose, but it works...

Filling the tank now to see how long I can get it to spray for, approx 50 gals or so was used for testing in like 30 seconds so... we'll see what happens.


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## catbuster

northmanlogging said:


> pump assembled and tested, nearly burned a hole in the shiny new suction hose, but it works...
> 
> Filling the tank now to see how long I can get it to spray for, approx 50 gals or so was used for testing in like 30 seconds so... we'll see what happens.



100 GPM is pretty impressive out of a small pump when this engine only does 1250 drafting. I think you've assembled a pretty good little unit there if it does that.


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## northmanlogging

supposed to do 150 gpm unrestricted. max 150 psi ish

got er halfway filled up, then decided to go play with the dog and it... ran for around 10 minutes not at wide open, didn't want to roll the puppy across the yard...


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## muddstopper

Cant say how long it will take to spray out 330gal from the tote, but I used to empty my 500gal hydroseeder in 6min. It just depends on what kind of nozzle you have on the end of the hose.


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## northmanlogging

finally got around to timing the pump-tank drain.

330 gal on level ground 1, 75' 1.5" hose stretched out so no kinks ore pinches to worry about, on redirect at the pump, nozzle set for max flow max distance... ish... (the nozzle is a little goofy, just barely open gives a thin stream but farther distance, a little more you loose some distance but get more volume, open farther and starts to spread out more and turn more to a mist but still flow like a bastard, backwards from everything I've used before)

8 minutes ish all told or 41.25 gallons a minute. lost some water to the suction hose (20' of 2") and some water was left in tank (about 5 gallons) actual run time was 8 minutes 13 seconds

With the hose not being pinched or kinked anywhere its got enough power to push back fairly hard at wide open, and if you get stupid and try to stick the hose out a bit like 3-4 feet it starts whipping around and scaring the Wifey... good times... dog loves it by the way.


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## Skeans

northmanlogging said:


> finally got around to timing the pump-tank drain.
> 
> 330 gal on level ground 1, 75' 1.5" hose stretched out so no kinks ore pinches to worry about, on redirect at the pump, nozzle set for max flow max distance... ish... (the nozzle is a little goofy, just barely open gives a thin stream but farther distance, a little more you loose some distance but get more volume, open farther and starts to spread out more and turn more to a mist but still flow like a bastard, backwards from everything I've used before)
> 
> 8 minutes ish all told or 41.25 gallons a minute. lost some water to the suction hose (20' of 2") and some water was left in tank (about 5 gallons) actual run time was 8 minutes 13 seconds
> 
> With the hose not being pinched or kinked anywhere its got enough power to push back fairly hard at wide open, and if you get stupid and try to stick the hose out a bit like 3-4 feet it starts whipping around and scaring the Wifey... good times... dog loves it by the way.


Is it always fun to scare the wifey once in a blue? Lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## 2dogs

The answer is yes. Yes I know how old this thread is but it is the best place to demonstrate my ignorance. I have a small Honda mop up pump that works great for slash piles and the like and I also have a Pacer plastic pump for moving larger amounts of water at lower pressure. When I thought I could relay pump using the Pacer. Nope it blew the plastic volute. I am going to try and find parts, maybe Forestry Suppliers. The pump was given to me with maybe an hour of use on it.


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## northmanlogging

McMaster Carr maybe?

I know you can get just the pump through them, but not cheap.


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## Blue Oaks

My buddy is a Snap On dealer and got us a couple of these. Haven't tried it out yet but I have acquired about 350' of mostly 1.5" NH hose, but some 1" hose as well. When I do test it this spring I'll report back. My water source is my 4700 gallon well tank up the hill from my house. For now I have a 30' rigid suction hose to throw up and into the access port on the top of the old steel tank. Once I re-do my water tanks I'll have a dedicated port for the pump.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418132_200418132


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## Hddnis

2dogs said:


> The answer is yes. Yes I know how old this thread is but it is the best place to demonstrate my ignorance. I have a small Honda mop up pump that works great for slash piles and the like and I also have a Pacer plastic pump for moving larger amounts of water at lower pressure. When I thought I could relay pump using the Pacer. Nope it blew the plastic volute. I am going to try and find parts, maybe Forestry Suppliers. The pump was given to me with maybe an hour of use on it.




I have a pacer, been a real good pump for me. I have repaired the volute using plastic epoxy and fiberglass tape, it broke when it was couple weeks old because it was dropped. The repair has lasted going on ten years now. Our local farm store sells parts for them. If they don't stock a part they can order it and usually in within a couple weeks at most.


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## Hddnis

Blue Oaks said:


> My buddy is a Snap On dealer and got us a couple of these. Haven't tried it out yet but I have acquired about 350' of mostly 1.5" NH hose, but some 1" hose as well. When I do test it this spring I'll report back. My water source is my 4700 gallon well tank up the hill from my house. For now I have a 30' rigid suction hose to throw up and into the access port on the top of the old steel tank. Once I re-do my water tanks I'll have a dedicated port for the pump.
> 
> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200418132_200418132


A good little pump. It will run 1.5" line very well.


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## madhatte

The wildlife folks have those on UTV's with the teensiest little tanks you ever saw. They're handy for catching spots and for mopup but their pressure and flow are both low enough that you really don't want to depend on them as initial attack platforms.


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## edrrt

Since this thread comes up a lot when people ask this question, and I had this question myself I will post this.

I bought several of both for fire protection. Honda, Koshen HP, harbor freight and other off brand high pressure fire pumps. My results:

Regarding whether you need them a high pressure pump or a trash pump I think a trash pump is adequate for just about everybody. A 2-inch trash pump with 1.5 in fire hose and adjustable nozzle throws an enormous amount of water over 25 yards. It easily clears the roof of a two-story building. It moves double the volume, allows for manifolds to run multiple additional lines of smaller size. It also has the advantage of not producing a huge windblast to fan the fire and being a lot easier on the operator. I think for most people that have farms or properties, unless you are pushing water uphill they work excellent for fire.

The high pressure pumps will push about half the volume of water around 35 to 40% further. Personally I did not like them for wildfire. The extra distance wasn't necessary, a lot more water was dispersed in the wind and did not even make it where you wanted it, it was much harder on the operator. It was also clear that it was a lot harder on the engine.

An additional advantage with the trash pump is that they move twice the volume and that can be very handy when a fire crew shows up with real equipment and they need a water supply. Your trash pump discharge can easily be tossed in the water tank on a fire truck and keep up. Strained fire resources often will not have the ability to pull water out of your swimming pool or water tanks and so if you have this setup ahead of time it can be a game changer.

Regarding branding I'm a firm believer that paying extra for the Honda engine is worth it, particularly for something that is used infrequently that you need to run and depend on.

That said the cheep harbor freight predator 2" trash pump is going on 5 years now and is still kicking butt. The first pump to fail was the very expensive Japanese Koshen. The bearing went out.

Although the other cheap high pressure fire pumps from China had a lifan engine, supposedly the same maker as predator... The quality was significantly worse for some reason. They also vibrate themselves to pieces trying to push the HP pump.

So to summarize I think a cheaper 2-in Honda trash pump with 1.5" hose is perfectly fine for fire, even has some advantages. I would not purchase any of the Chinese high pressure cheaper options. The harbor freight pump is actually ok. One big advantage being you can rush out and get one... Or 3 at your local HF if a fire threat starts. You will not be able to find any fittings or hose and so you're going to need to have that sorted out ahead of time. 

Trash Pump (soaks everything fast for 25 yards)


"Fire" Pump (Shoots farther but hard to get anything wet as the finer mist is dispersed in the wind).




Avoid these. Buy the Honda if you need high pressure.


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## Wow

northmanlogging said:


> No particular model, most fire pump are rated at 100-150 psi, but what little experience I have with fire hose they where running about 80-90 and getting it done.
> 
> The trash pumps have no psi rating, so I'm a little lost for numbers.


My fire truck usually ran 90psi. It's been so long can't remember GPM. We had to qualify a pumper and we had a flow gauge. I recall something like 800 GPM for a few minutes. 4400 gallon tanker. Emptied pretty quickly BUT we stopped before completely empty. I know almost anything beats a garden hose. Main thing is trash. No trash in the nozzle ever. The twist nozzle. Right for Reach Left for Life. Left gave a good spray. Right a stream. You want both. I'd recommend you visit a Volunteer fire department. They have regular meetings. We did. Training is free. I've thought about a barrel in the air. Add pressure gauge. Use compressor fill to 80% add pressure. Even if the electrical goes out a Gas powered compressor could run. Then there is this. A trash pump hooked to a pressurized water tank might blow pretty hard. We had a floating pump and a Water tank. 4400 gallons. We'd set up. Unfold the tank dump the truck crank the float pump send the driver for more water. Several trucks Shuttling water was good for stationary. For grass we had a 1.25 reel line. I've put out woods fires with that. Bunker gear is important. I don't have bunker gear at home but all cotton clothing is the best street clothes and heavy gloves and boots BUT NOTHING but good Bunker is really safe. A pump that draws water needs clean water. Even if the pump can handle pine straw the Nozzle hates it. I'd say 6, 55 gallon drums would be a bucket. Ways to pressure them and ways to get lines hooked to them. Have you thought about plumbing the attic of your home? You'd have to have a way to flip the main breaker off. Have a good headlight and a nozzle. Inside and attic is a likely place for fires to start. There and in the kitchen. I refuse to cook using hot oil inside the house. Grease fires. Wow. Have a way to turn the heat source OFF. Grab a towel wet it and WRING the water OUT. if you can get below the fire and reach up spreading the wet NOT DRIPPING WET Towel over the pot of burning grease it Will go out.
The HUGE MISTAKE most people make is tossing Water into a lot of burning grease. IT WILL EXPLODE spread the fire and hurt people. Dry Flour corn meal sand asked almost anything helps EXCEPT LIQUID. The oil may be at least 500 degrees water boils at 212. Water sinks beneath oil. Burning oil BOILS WATER. The steam builds up then blows. It spews the burning oil everywhere. This is WHY I won't buy an electric Stove that has the knobs at the rear. I'm not reaching over a burning pot of oil to turn it off. Breaker should be handy. Good luck.


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## 2dogs

The last two posts are regarding homeowner situations. This is the Forestry and Logging forum and this thread was started by a logger who wants (and needs) fire protection for his job. Often the requirement is 500 gallons, a certain amount of hose, and a certain performance pump. Let's keep the two subjects separate.


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## 2dogs

It took me awhile to find this long winded thread but I have a couple stories. A few weeks ago I asked the Cal Fire hand crew to burn some slash piles while I had two crew members with me moving bucked wood. I told them to light the high side and down wind. As I was coming back from the dumpsite all I could see was a wall of flame and crew members moving very quickly around the fire. I still had the dump trailer hooked up. The Captain came down the hill and quickly asked if we still had a water buffalo. I said yep and he said GET IT! We unhooked the trailer in the middle of the parking lot and went and hooked up the water buffalo. I drove it to the top of the hill and turned around and parked. The crew strung out 200' of 1 1/2" hose and managed to cool down the fire. There was still one fir tree smoking but the stream wouldn't quite reach the highest point but we knew it wasn't going to start burning. After awhile we wyed out to a 1" line and a p-line ( aka toy hose, aka 3/4" garden hose"). That reduced our water flow but I still had to refill the water buffalo, 500 gallons, after a half hour or so. 

The site of the slash burn looks great after rehab and I'm investigating which seed mix to use though do to upcoming construction I probably won't plant until late fall or winter.

At other slash piles I stage a full IBC tote, about 265 gallons, and a portable pump. One pump is a 1" Honda I bought new and the other is a Harbor Freight I bought unused of LetGo. Both worked fine since I never have much hose strung out. 

I intentionally try to create charcoal instead of burning everything to white ash. The burn site does not get too hot and I hope doesn't sterilize the soil. Also we can spread the remaining limbs by chipping them thus aiding in carbon sequestration and "creating" "terra preta".


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## Blue Oaks

Dang. Sounds like some real excitement there.


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## 2dogs

Blue Oaks said:


> Dang. Sounds like some real excitement there.


It was a bit concerning but all the piles had a good line around them. It was my fault for not having the line cut further away from the clump of fir trees. I have a standard for pile burns but my notes and my weather kit were sitting at home. Duh. We operated on the SWAG method. 

Blue Oaks you know the Santa Cruz mountains are getting quite dry, that is low fuel moistures in the light stuff, and that the recent rains haven't done anything to boost moisture levels. (I need a Kestrel).


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## Fireman Bill

2dogs said most f it. I also have been a fire fighter for 35 years and VA fire Instructor teaching pump operators and drivers. The trash pumps have several styles/types. Diaphragm, open centrifugal and I’ve even seen gear style that are grinders. The trash pumps can move alot of water but will not produce much pressure. They also are not built for tough conditions unless its a Whacker Neuson or equivalent.. Which are dang expensive. The true fire rated centrifugal pump be it a single stage or 2 stage are designed to pump higher pressures as well as move a lot of water. The clearances are of course tighter. The fire pumps volute is engineered to reduce impeller shaft wear and use the energy of the water to increase pressure. So a small 150-200 gpm fire rated pump would be a great option. Heck an 18 HP engine runs them great. Oh fire pumps are rated at pressure to certain GPM’s. The data plates have the flow and psi rating on them. Most fire pumps max gpm ratings will be at 150 psi. Anyway sounds like a great project. Lots of pumps around but not knowing the condition is the Problem. If they’ve never been cavitation or run without water or strainer then a seal replacement may be all thats needed. Good luck in your build…


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## Drptrch

Mark-III pump specs










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## Drptrch

Drptrch said:


> Mark-III pump specs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using see



Honda WH20









Honda WH20 pump 1.png


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com






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