# thoughts and expieriences on chinese engines



## origionalrebel (Jan 24, 2013)

this should get some tongues wagging. are they any good? do they last? starting ? all i know qabout em is they're half the price of a honda.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 24, 2013)

origionalrebel said:


> this should get some tongues wagging. are they any good? do they last? starting ? all i know qabout em is they're half the price of a honda.




My splitter came with a Honda GX390 13hp clone- the original would have ignition problems when it got hot. Warranty on the splitter got me a replacement that's been fine. That said I think it is noisier and vibrates more that the real honda. It has been a good starter. Will it last is still a question.


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## motoman3b (Jan 24, 2013)

Put a 6.5hp HF Chonda motor on my splitter, other then a mouse chewing the kill switch wire and grounding it out, no problems plus for less then a hundred bucks with coupons you cant beat it!


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 24, 2013)

Consensus both here and the farm forum I visit is that they're generally pretty solid, and if one does fail, it's still cheaper to throw a new one on than it would have been to put a Honda on it in the first place.

I'm not big on China stuff, but if I needed a motor, I'd be doing myself a disservice by not at least considering one.


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## Streblerm (Jan 24, 2013)

I put a 5.5hp predator vertical engine on a mower that pretty much only gets used mowing a steep bank. I was lucky to get a season out of a briggs or tecumseh engine. Usually about halfway through the summer the engines start using quite a bit of oil and smoking real bad since they dont get oiled correctly on the steep bank. I am two years into the predator with no issues so far. It also seems to have more power than the engines it replaced. If I run it at full throttle I get covered in grass. This never happened with the old engines. I attribute the longevity to the cast iron sleeve vs the aluminum bore in the "better" engines. 

I also have a greyhound 6.5hp on a troybilt tiller. It is unstoppable. It was cheaper to buy the chonda engine than buy a carburetor and air filter housing that was broken on the briggs.

Bang for the buck wise I don't think you can do much better. I'm not saying they are as good as the GC series honda engines, but they are better than their price suggests. If you need to rely on an engine day in and day out it may be worth the coin to spring for the Honda. Otherwise for intermittent use I don't think you can go wrong with the clones. I have one "in stock" just in case the engine on my 22T Huskee splitter takes a ####.

When Harbor Freight was switching from the "greyhound" to the "predator" label on the engines I bought 2 6.5hp engines for $45 if I recall correctly. I also bought a 14hp engine with electric start for $110. I'm not sure what I'll use them for but I have them. I think the air filtration on the greyhounds was a bit better than on the new predators. At that price I just couldn't pass them up. I'm sure a project will present itself sometime.


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 24, 2013)

I own quite a few of them 6.5 to 13 and find them to be at least as reliable as any others around the place. Just like the Hondas they cloned they like fresh spark plugs and like everything else todays garbage fuels will cause troubles if left to sit. I have had a bad one out of the box, took it back and got handed another one no problem. My lone beef with the current crop is when they changed to the black Predator engines the air cleaner elements were cheapened up a lot. Never pay list price! if you dont have a coupon search the web for one. 6.5HP just went off sale to anyone for $99. I have paid as little as $80 with coupon.


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## Mac88 (Jan 24, 2013)

I don't understand why everyone who complains about everything not being made in the USA, would go out and buy a Chinese made Honda clone, but wouldn't touch a Chinese made Stihl clone at any price. Go figure.


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## Cerran (Jan 24, 2013)

Mac88 said:


> I don't understand why everyone who complains about everything not being made in the USA, would go out and buy a Chinese made Honda clone, but wouldn't touch a Chinese made Stihl clone at any price. Go figure.



Different use. 4 strokes are certainly more forgiving design wise than 2 strokes.

I have a Chinese made engine on my snow blower (Ariens 22' with LCT 208cc motor) and it's been a reasonable engine and hasn't given me problems. Given the chance to buy again I would have likely spend the extra $100 for the 24" blower with a Briggs though.


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## haveawoody (Jan 24, 2013)

JMO

I think you should buy whatever you like but if your son or daughter can't get work then when you point at the problem get a mirror.
Me i try to buy Canadian first, then NA.
Sure i might spend a bit more for a real warranty and engine but do you really think Chonda cares who is working in Canada or USA?
And when the Briggs company folds and Chonda is the only one left do you think they will still be cheap to buy?

In my experience with Chinese equipment it's all been short lived cheap junk.
Your experience may differ than mine though.

Throw it away and replace because it's cheap is why the dumps overflow and the world is becoming a polluted planet.


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## reaperman (Jan 24, 2013)

The only thing I did on my 6.5 greyhound was take off the black air cleaner cover, which will expose the actual air filter. The black cover vibrates and rattles around and drive me nuts when I'm splitting wood. If I were using it in dusty conditions I wouldnt remove the cover. But since the splitter is stationary and the ground it normally frozen while splitting, dust isnt a issue. The greyhound replaced a honda gc which was a decent motor and good on gas. But after only 2 seasons it rattled so much to the point of wearing out the governor rod, spring, etc. I sold that engine to a go kart guy who was taking off the governor anyway, for more than I paid for the greyhound. The greyhound or Lifan engine seems much better than the GC line of honda.


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## blackdogon57 (Jan 24, 2013)

I just replaced a Honda GX - 120 on my firewood elevator. It had 2000 hours on it. It lived outside for 7 years and rarely gave me any problems. 2 or 3 pulls even on a cold day like today. It didnt seize up or stop working - some idiot (me) crushed it by accident with a skidsteer. I replaced it with a brand new Honda. Can't say I know anyone that works for Chonda but I know a few that make Honda cars here in Ontario.


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## Mac88 (Jan 24, 2013)

I've got the original Tecumseh HM-100 that was put on my old splitter when it was built. Split 20+ cords on it last year. Yea, it starting to burn a little oil, and doesn't run as smooth as it used to, even after a carb rebuild. I'm rounding up an old Kohler to replace it if/when it finally expires.


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## Arbonaut (Jan 24, 2013)

I got GX-160 Honda's on Pressure washer, Stone Plate Compactor, Walk Behind Trowel, Generator and Trash Pump the two older pieces were made in Japan, (at one time here, not acceptable). Now it would be par for the course, except, the other three GX-160 5.5 HP and the little GX-35 on my Allen magic screed are all made in Thailand. If I wanted something from there, I woulda bought it when I lived there. Now you don't have a choice.


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## Mac88 (Jan 24, 2013)

I figure I can rebuild a 12 horse Kohler for less than the price of a 420cc Predator, and it'll still be running long after the predator has gone to recycle.


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## pennsywoodburnr (Jan 25, 2013)

Mac88 said:


> I don't understand why everyone who complains about everything not being made in the USA, would go out and buy a Chinese made Honda clone, but wouldn't touch a Chinese made Stihl clone at any price. Go figure.



Mac, there are some lines in the sand that just can't be crossed!


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## TJ-Bill (Jan 25, 2013)

I have a Honda Knock off (Lifan) on my splitter..3 years so far no issues!


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## Mac88 (Jan 25, 2013)

pennsywoodburnr said:


> Mac, there are some lines in the sand that just can't be crossed!



I never paid much attention to lines in the sand, unless Mother Nature created them. :msp_smile:


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 25, 2013)

Mac88 said:


> I don't understand why everyone who complains about everything not being made in the USA, would go out and buy a Chinese made Honda clone, but wouldn't touch a Chinese made Stihl clone at any price. Go figure.



Mac, I know I'm a bit of a hypocrite here, but here's why I said what I did: If I need to depend on a motor, I'll do my best to buy a good quality motor. If it's something I just use once in a while, and it is just an inconvenience if it doesn't run, it doesn't make sense to me to tie up hundreds of dollars more in something that's just gonna sit around mostly.

I should be the biggest flag waver on here, my job depends entirely on people buying things with nameplates like John Deere, Kenworth, Toro, Cummins and a few others. (Business is good right now BTW) The hard fact is, there's only so much money to go around, and sometimes you have to compromise.

BTW, the chinese Stihl/Husky copies just don't have the reliability (yet) to even come close to comparing them with the Honda clone 4 strokes.

TOTALLY OT RANT: Spell checker just tried to tell me that Kenworth, Toro, and Cummins were all misspelled. Even had the nerve to suggest the dreaded "Cummings"! Stupid computers...


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## Mac88 (Jan 25, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> Mac, I know I'm a bit of a hypocrite here, but here's why I said what I did: If I need to depend on a motor, I'll do my best to buy a good quality motor. If it's something I just use once in a while, and it is just an inconvenience if it doesn't run, it doesn't make sense to me to tie up hundreds of dollars more in something that's just gonna sit around mostly.



I have no problem with that logic. I would probably be inclined to purchase a used American made engine for "once in a while applications". But that's just me.



Steve NW WI said:


> The hard fact is, there's only so much money to go around, and sometimes you have to compromise.



I know all about THAT issue. That's why I have and use a lot of "antique" equipment.



Steve NW WI said:


> BTW, the chinese Stihl/Husky copies just don't have the reliability (yet) to even come close to comparing them with the Honda clone 4 strokes.



Probably not. Mostly I'm just taken by the irony of "I hate buying stuff made in China" and "I really like those Chinese made engines" coming out of the same mouths. 



Steve NW WI said:


> TOTALLY OT RANT: Spell checker just tried to tell me that Kenworth, Toro, and Cummins were all misspelled. Even had the nerve to suggest the dreaded "Cummings"! Stupid computers...



Gotcha on that. I just add words (names, usually) to the dictionary. No more flagged misspellings. The problem isn't in the computer, it's the folks that write the programs that cause most of our headaches. :msp_angry:


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## Toxic2 (Apr 16, 2013)

I hate my lifan motor on my woodsplitter..it never ran right out of the box..only way it runs half decent is with the chocke half on..doesn seem to be balanced well either..i am gonna switch it to a desil when i get some money...worst money i even spent.....howver i may have just got a bad one


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## Whitespider (Apr 16, 2013)

Toxic2 said:


> I hate my lifan motor on my woodsplitter..it never ran right out of the box..*only way it runs half decent is with the chocke half on.*



That ain't a problem with the engine, that's a problem with the carburetor... likely something a couple wrenches, a screw driver, some torch-tip cleaners, and an hour can't fix.


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## RiverRocket (Apr 16, 2013)

Buy AMERICAN.........


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## Rudolf73 (Apr 16, 2013)

The small honda engines are now made in China, some are still assembled in Japan and hence they can still use the "Made in Japan" sticker. I have used various chonda engines in the past 5 years without any issues - like someone mentioned before they are great value for money. 

If you want a high quality small engine go with a Subaru/Robin, they are still made in Japan.


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## philoshop (Apr 16, 2013)

I was racing karts 5 years ago and got into the "clone-class" with three other guys just to keep racing. Damn expensive otherwise.
We all went to HF and bought their chonda 6.5 hp motors. $130 each. Three of us have since retired and put those motors to other use. One is still racing. He has built the snot outta that motor and races it like hes trying to kill it, which he is, and it just keeps running. Every weekend, 5 months a year, 4 years, say an hour and a half each week run-time, turning 6500+ rpm for 20 minutes at a time, flat out. He's trying to kill it so he can justify a $1500 motor to the wife. 5th season coming up.
I buy US when I can, but sometimes...


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## blades (Apr 17, 2013)

Like everything else parts for Briggs are sourced all over the world. there was a time when everything was made here for them. I live by and drive past 3 different Briggs plants everyday. The main plant here is a shadow of its former self. The casting plant was sold years ago and right now is owned Harley Davidson. Briggs built a very large building recently in the area , I'm told it just a distribution point. I had friends working for them back in the day, lot of in fighting between management and unions. Lot of shady employment practices were going on such as 19.5 hours a week( anything under 20/wk considered part time so no insurance pension ect.) long time employees let go just before being fully vested for pension. Terminations of full time employees for questionable reasons was rampant. Quality control slid to the bottom of heap. Govt/epa didn't help with rules on volatile emissions, although Briggs was really bad on that over at the main plant in the 70's back then the main plant covered about 1/2 a sq. mile. I also remember Briggs #####ing about the influx of the Hondas and the like which at the time were under cutting them price wise, part of what they said were true other sections they brought on themselves. Tecumseh plants are all gone now also. Kohler still around, Wisconsin gone.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

Briggs and Stratton are not gone by any stretch of the imagination. They have the worlds most efficient small engine plant right here in my back yard and are in the process of investing $3.4 million dollars in expansion and reconfiguration of the assembly lines. IIRC this plant is also the worlds largest small engine plant in production at one facility. Their quality is the best I've seen and they constantly work at improving both quality and efficiency. They cast their own aluminum parts and the plastic parts are made locally. The crankshaft line is something to see as well as the cam department. The big difference between this plant and plants in the north are the work force and management work hard at making engines efficiently and don't spend time pointing fingers at each other.

If only they made horizontal shaft engines at this plant... 

I've also seen some of the junk production machines that came from Milwaukee and you can just see that there was no happy people there.

John


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## stihl sawing (Apr 17, 2013)

I sure hope their good engines, I just bought a predator generator. It does start easy and is quiet. Haven't run it much yet. But for 289 bucks i had to try it.


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2013)

RiverRocket said:


> *Buy AMERICAN.........*



Really ?? Where do I do that, and what do I buy ??
I just bought a walk-behind mower this spring with a Briggs & Stratton, it has a "Torch" brand spark plug in it (Chinese made... a "state" owned company). I stopped at the fleet store yesterday to pick up some spare parts for maintenance inventory (plug, air filter, fuel filter, etc.). Every part I looked at in a Briggs & Stratton package said "Made in China" or "Product of China".

There ain't anything "American" anymore... we simply bolt together parts shipped here from somewhere else and slap a "Made in America" sticker on it. And we ain't the only ones... start taking a close look at those Jap products (such as Honda engines)... you're gonna find parts on them that say "Made in China".

Twenty, maybe fifteen years ago, the "Made in America" sticker and the "BUY AMERICAN!" idea meant something... now it's just a huge joke. I stopped foolin' myself ten years ago! Now I look-out for myself... I put my money where it returns the most-for-the-least... sometimes that means paying a bit more, sometimes not... sometime that means it will have a bogus "Made in America" sticker, sometimes not.


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## stihl sawing (Apr 17, 2013)

RiverRocket said:


> Buy AMERICAN.........





Whitespider said:


> Really ?? Where do I do that, and what do I buy ??
> I just bought a walk-behind mower this spring with a Briggs & Stratton, it has a "Torch" brand spark plug in it (Chinese made... a "state" owned company). I stopped at the fleet store yesterday to pick up some spare parts for maintenance inventory (plug, air filter, fuel filter, etc.). Every part I looked at in a Briggs & Stratton package said "Made in China" or "Product of China".
> 
> There ain't anything "American" anymore... we simply bolt together parts shipped here from somewhere else and slap a "Made in America" sticker on it. And we ain't the only ones... start taking a close look at those Jap products (such as Honda engines)... you're gonna find parts on them that say "Made in China".
> ...


Yep, everything you pick up now is foreign made and mostly china. Most of the American companies outsource stuff so they can compete on prices. Go buy a Harley motorcycle part and see where it is made.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

The spark plug and the air filter might be made in china but the cylinder, sump, crank, piston, the head and all the plastic parts are made here in Poplar Bluff and the carburetors are made in the Murry Ky Briggs plant.

John


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2013)

Well... you can even take that a little further...
If you look real close, some of the stuff from China will have parts or pieces on them with a "Made in the U.S.A." label... not a lot mind you, but some.


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2013)

jthornton said:


> *The spark plug and the air filter might be made in china but the cylinder, sump, crank, piston, the head and all the plastic parts are made here in Poplar Bluff and the carburetors are made in the Murry Ky Briggs plant.*



Sorry, but that ain't true on every B&S engine, probably true on some of the more expensive "pro" engines and such... at twice the price.
My last walk-behind had a B&S with some sort of "_plastic_" cast carburetor, and stamped right in the side of it was "_Made in China_"! The darn thing backfired and caught fire... the carb melted before I could get it put out, L-O-L! I just rebuilt the carb on my Briggs-powered garden tiller last spring... every single part came separately (no "kit" available) with "_Product of China_" on the package (except the o-rings). Yesterday at the fleet store I was looking at the lawn tractors (I always open the hoods to see what engine is used)... one Briggs on a cheaper model had a plastic shroud over it with "_Made in China_" molded right into it. Last summer I rebuilt the top end of my Harley Davidson golf cart (cylinder, piston and rings)... the cylinder was a re-bore, the fitted piston and rings came from China.

Briggs & Stratton markets several dozen models of engine, with dozens of different configurations withing those models (some of them proprietary to particular applications by other companies), and they sell them world-wide. No way they make "all" of anything right here in the good ol' U.S. of A.

Here's something you might find interesting...
In 2007, Briggs closed its engine plant in Rolla, Mo., and shifted half of that plant's production to a plant it opened in *China!*


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## Arbonaut (Apr 17, 2013)

haveawoody said:


> JMO
> 
> I think you should buy whatever you like but if your son or daughter can't get work then when you point at the problem get a mirror.
> Me i try to buy Canadian first, then NA.
> ...



Thomas Skidsteers used to be the best on the market. Made in Canada then. If your kids want to work there now, I hope they are in management.


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## blades (Apr 17, 2013)

Briggs had a real management problem for quite awhile. It showed in the products, and that is what allowed their competitors to gain so much market share. Doesn't pay to be so smug as they found out. Some of the plants here were quite old, difficult and very expensive to convert to new EPA, OSHA and other regulatory requirements. This scenario is not limited to Briggs but applies to all of US mfg.


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## LarryRFL (Apr 17, 2013)

The only time I would worry about Chinese *** is with generators. A lot of them are imported and sold by companies that close down or change names. Engines are fine, but generator parts (especially capacitors or voltage regulators). Any other application with these engines aren't really a problem.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 17, 2013)

A true Made-in-the-USA product is rare. If you do the research, often times things are assembled here with imported parts and/or assembled by "imports" which is fine _*if*_ they are legal. I mean heck, most of us in the US are descendants of imports right? 
Gotta love the sneaky marketing people that figured out if they slap a USA flag on the package, most people won't look close enough to see the "assembled in" or other fine print. :msp_unsure: I seen something recently that said the word America real big, had to look close to see the "assembled in _north_ AMERICA"...as in _Mexico_!!! SNEAKY SNEAKY SNEAKY!
I wonder what the guys that have a good union job on the docks do when they are faced with this situation, a special kind of dilemma for them!
I heard somewhere recently that the, I think it was the Toyota Camry, has the highest USA parts content. Shame on Ford/Chevy/Dodge!
I for one try to buy American, but sometimes (often) it just doesn't make sense and/or there is more to it then an American name on the package.
Someone already brought up the Stihl thing, I wonder how many of us drive something other than one of the big 3? I know, I know, most of them are built here. Heck, I have a Honda Goldwing, made in Marysville Ohio. (was, back in Japan now) Rambling done...


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## rarefish383 (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm like Mac88, I have a bunch of old stuff. Most of my chainsaws are old Homelites we bought back in the 70's. They got commercial use for at least 20 years till my Dad retired in the early 90's. Then we used a lot of Poulan XXV's and Echo's, then a few Stihls. I still use 2 of the Super 1050's for milling, an XL 924 and XL 700. I've got too many irons in the fire to get one project finished. I have 2 old wood splitters, both with Kohlers. One is an early 60's Lickity Split splitter. I want to restore it 100% original, just for the hydraulic technology in it. It has 2 stage hydraulics in stead of a 2 stage pump. The other splitter was one a friend made. It had an electric start 12 horse Kohler. We got it running and it was a bear, would cut anything we put on it. Let another friend borrow it, bad move. I told him the first friend, who built the machine, put a way under sized hydraulic tank on it (2 gallon) and not to run it for more than a half hour. He ran it for about 4 hours straight and cooked the pump, then it sat outside for a year or so, now the Kohler won't start. I just wanted one new component on the thing to get started on fixing it. I can't afford to rebuild the Kohler, and I think a short block was like $750. I bought the little 6.5 Predator and a pump bracket for less than a $125 total. Now I can work on it "now" and not have to wait till I can afford it. The 6.5 was a band aid to stop the money bleeding. Once I get the thing straightened out I'm going back to the electric start Kohler. Then I'll have the cheepie 6.5 to mock up some other project, maybe my $75 JD Gator with no motor. Let's see how it goes, Joe.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

Whitespider said:


> Sorry, but that ain't true on every B&S engine, probably true on some of the more expensive "pro" engines and such... at twice the price.
> My last walk-behind had a B&S with some sort of "_plastic_" cast carburetor, and stamped right in the side of it was "_Made in China_"! The darn thing backfired and caught fire... the carb melted before I could get it put out, L-O-L! I just rebuilt the carb on my Briggs-powered garden tiller last spring... every single part came separately (no "kit" available) with "_Product of China_" on the package (except the o-rings). Yesterday at the fleet store I was looking at the lawn tractors (I always open the hoods to see what engine is used)... one Briggs on a cheaper model had a plastic shroud over it with "_Made in China_" molded right into it. Last summer I rebuilt the top end of my Harley Davidson golf cart (cylinder, piston and rings)... the cylinder was a re-bore, the fitted piston and rings came from China.
> 
> Briggs & Stratton markets several dozen models of engine, with dozens of different configurations withing those models (some of them proprietary to particular applications by other companies), and they sell them world-wide. No way they make "all" of anything right here in the good ol' U.S. of A.
> ...



Well that is just not true, I helped install the equipment from Rolla here in Poplar Bluff. What they sent to China was an engine that was produced very little and that engine was produced in the Poplar Bluff plant. They closed Rolla for the same reason the Milwaukee went down the tubes it cost too much to build an engine there.

The engines made here and in Murry Ky are not the more expensive engines but lawn mower and pressure washer vertical shaft motors. The Quantum is the old flat head engine and it is made in both Murry and Poplar Bluff. The new motors are more fuel efficient and more torque than the old Quantum design.

And it is correct not 100% of the motors made here and in Murry are from American parts but the majority of the parts are made here.

I've seen the plastic carburetor machine in Murry and the body is/was from China but the carb is assembled here. The die cast carburetors are made in Murry...

I don't know where the twin cylinder plant gets its plastic from but from your research it comes from China.

I have a supplier badge and can walk into either plant when needed so I'm somewhat in the know about vertical shaft engines produced here and in Murry. I don't have a clue about the other plants...

John


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2013)

Just because some equipment from Rolla was moved to Popular Bluff doesn’t mean all of the production was. You didn’t read my post carefully enough… I said *half* of the production was moved to the new plant in China.
Don't believe me ?? Here's the story...
Briggs closing plants in Jefferson, Waterown

And in 2012 Briggs and Stratton closed the Auburn, AL engine plant and move half of that production to China... the other half was sourced from *third-party* manufacturers in Southeast Asia!! That's right, Briggs is slapping their name on engines being produce by Southeast Asia (non-Briggs) manufacturers!!
Don't believe me ?? Here's the story...
More Cutting for Briggs & Stratton | Shop Operations content from American Machinist

As well, it's been common knowledge for some years now that B&S has been casting many of the engine blocks in Mexico.

Briggs and Stratton is a _Global Company_ now... it hasn't been an American Company since the late 90's.

I'll tell you something else; this ain't the end of it, you'll be seeing more, and more B&S production being move outside the U.S. as our government regulations become more, and more strict.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

Whitespider said:


> Briggs and Stratton is a _Global Company_ now... it hasn't been an American Company since the late 90's.



It is not possible to compete in a global market place from one place and a large share of B&S market is over seas. That is one of the reasons Briggs is still making engines...



Whitespider said:


> I'll tell you something else; this ain't the end of it, you'll be seeing more, and more B&S production being move outside the U.S. as our government regulations become more, and more strict.



This is the sad truth and we keep electing people to make it worse...

I'm done talking about it because you are talking about all of Briggs products not the engines I'm talking about...

John


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## Chris-PA (Apr 17, 2013)

“Hollowing Out” in U.S. Manufacturing: Analysis and Issues for Congress http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41712.pdf

It's not regulations, it's energy.

Basically the US peaked in oil production (and per capita income) in the early 1970's. The industrial system of manufacturing and selling products no longer provides enough return on investment for those who own the companies given the ever higher cost of energy and the cost of servicing the ever higher debt. It doesn't work any more. Some have responded with efforts to replace US workers with more automation, many more have switched to much cheaper foreign workers to replace _both _automation and US workers. 

Both of these are temporary measures. As the cost energy and debts continue to rise, and the availability of both decrease, the next step is not only no manufacturing jobs, but no products either. 

Learn to fix what you have.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

It doesn't really matter where production goes, when a factory becomes noncompetitive in the global market place and the cost to produce an engine is more than the selling price they will shut down or move the factory some place else. That is what happened in Rolla Mo, the cost to produce the engine was more than the selling price. When it takes 4 months to install a simple machine on the production line something is really wrong. They did have a side line that produced a few 3.5hp horz shaft motors, I wonder if that is how the media claimed 50%... I don't have a clue where that production went but it was minor. Of course you believe everything you read on the internet and all news people tell it straight up without bending the facts to make them look good...

You can blame anything you want when your noncompetitive but when the WORLDS most efficient small engine plant is in America it makes you wonder why more factories can't do the same over here??? It's not easy getting that title and it is not one sided, it's all the people involved working to a common goal BE THE MOST EFFICIENT GLOBAL PRODUCER.

Now I'll shut up!

John


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## Chris-PA (Apr 17, 2013)

How do you measure efficiency? The most output for the least labor thanks to automation? Is using machines better than using foreign workers?


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## nt3041 (Apr 17, 2013)

*Honda Knock-off*



origionalrebel said:


> this should get some tongues wagging. are they any good? do they last? starting ? all i know qabout em is they're half the price of a honda.



I have a 9 hp Hispec on my splitter for 3 years and love it. Starts easy, good on fuel........could not ask for better.


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## Cerran (Apr 17, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> “Hollowing Out” in U.S. Manufacturing: Analysis and Issues for Congress http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41712.pdf
> 
> It's not regulations, it's energy.
> 
> ...



What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 17, 2013)

Cerran said:


> What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.


The US peaked in oil production rates in the early 1970's. Despite all the hype we are no where even close to that now and will never get there again, and besides all the oil we produce now costs far more to get. The world has now peaked in the rate of oil production. This is why the cost of energy is rising.


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## jthornton (Apr 17, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> How do you measure efficiency? The most output for the least labor thanks to automation? Is using machines better than using foreign workers?



What do you think using 500 Americans and some automation or just saying screw it and sending all of the work to China?

It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...

John


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## nt3041 (Apr 17, 2013)

Cerran said:


> What do you think drives up the cost of energy. Regulations.




Our labour cost and I'm as guilty as the next guy.


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## philoshop (Apr 17, 2013)

When labor and management see eye to eye and agree that the goal is making the best product possible rather than each individual in the system trying to make the most money for themselves, the US kicks butt. Bottom line and end of that story.
That kind of teamwork backfired in a way. Troybuilt is a great example of building a product that was essentially too good. The old roto-tillers, snowblowers, etc that they made in the 60's are still going strong. Their price point was higher than the competition that was coming into the market in the 70's and they lost the entry market. The old machines never wore out and needed to be replaced, so they eventually lost that market as well.
A young guy with a family to feed is gonna buy what he can afford. An older guy has a troybuilt and is not going to replace it. It's a mindset. "I can afford this roto-tiller right now, when I want it, and when the time comes that I can afford the good one I'll probably just pay somebody else to do it".
Tools of the trade are a different story. I'm in construction and I don't buy junk because a tool failure is expensive for me. I heat with wood and a cheap saw that breaks down on the one day that I need it is not what I want to take into the woods.


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## hamish (Apr 17, 2013)

jthornton said:


> It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...
> 
> John



Wow, you have such a great understanding of the world.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 17, 2013)

jthornton said:


> What do you think using 500 Americans and some automation or just saying screw it and sending all of the work to China?
> 
> It all boils down to you have to make a product below the market sales price or you go out of business. The Chinese are just like the Japanese in the 60's and 70's they made a bunch of cheap crap that didn't work and the dumb Americans just kept buying and buying it...
> 
> John


That was not really my point - you were touting the efficiency of the plant as if that was a universally good thing, but every worker replaced by a machine is just as out of work as one replaced by a foreign worker.


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## half (Apr 18, 2013)

*chinese engines*

Down in the south pacific we have had chinese stuff for while now, the Chinese are an adaptable manufacturer.They will build to your price. If you want a cheap piece of s--t they will build it for you.And if you want quality they will do that too. If they are putting their name on it usually is is quite competitive in quality and price. I have had lufan engines and they seem quite good. reliable and solid.

But a part made for a contract with another name on it ,weeeellll nor so sure. I have seen iron and oak splitters made in china and they look a bit light. the Chinese are good at copying.
but not their name on it, so quality does not matter


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## Tazfreak (Apr 18, 2013)

In oz small engine workshops/sales will within 3/5 years sell mostly chondas.example a oil alert switch for any gx Honda will cost u more than a new 6.5 hp chonda motor...Folk won,t pay for top quality repairs or purchases unless it,s for emergency equip ,like generators,firepumps etc.I,ve used Honda,yamaha,suzuki,robin,suburu and had a great run with them in the past,tried b/Stratton but didn,t like them,unreliable ,leaky vibrating low performing junk.No real parts backup here.If u make your living using small engines then buy a quality motor.Plenty of folk here use chonda type motors and r getting years of hard service out of them,I have a 6.5 and a 13 hp chonda on two machines,both r 4 years old never play up,start first pull.My secret ''run em on 2 stroke'':msp_biggrin:


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## Rudolf73 (Apr 18, 2013)

Tazfreak said:


> In oz small engine workshops/sales will within 3/5 years sell mostly chondas.example a oil alert switch for any gx Honda will cost u more than a new 6.5 hp chonda motor...Folk won,t pay for top quality repairs or purchases unless it,s for emergency equip ,like generators,firepumps etc.I,ve used Honda,yamaha,suzuki,robin,suburu and had a great run with them in the past,tried b/Stratton but didn,t like them,unreliable ,leaky vibrating low performing junk.No real parts backup here.If u make your living using small engines then buy a quality motor.Plenty of folk here use chonda type motors and r getting years of hard service out of them,I have a 6.5 and a 13 hp chonda on two machines,both r 4 years old never play up,start first pull.My secret ''run em on 2 stroke'':msp_biggrin:



Yeah honda put themselves out of the market with their parts prices (parts which are now made in china). For instance, we needed a new muffler for a 6.5 honda on a water pump - new price for an genuine muffler was around $200. A replacement chonda (complete engine) on the otherhand - $120. I know what I would buy...


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## Whitespider (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't buy into the "energy cost" theory... that rising energy costs are putting U.S. manufacturers out out business, or driving them to source from overseas. I don't disagree that energy cost is rising... but those cost increases could be easily absorbed by the purchasing public. Two larger increasing expenses are hitting U.S. manufacturing hard... much larger and increasing at a faster rate than energy.

Labor cost - And not just the hourly wage and salaries. The "legacy" labor expense is huge, many times greater than energy. Look at financial reports from any big U.S. manufacturer and the amount spent on "prior" employees will make your head spin (pensions, retirement, settlements, healthcare, etc.). Spending money on a "non-producing" employee is flat stupid, extremely poor business practice... but employers have no choice in today's thinking. Add to that the amount it costs to keep "working" employees, just benefits and healthcare alone. What happened to "Major Medical" insurance?? Why does an employer have to provide insurance that pays for sniffles?? Why is a employer expected to provide your retirement?? What happened to personal responsibility?? This is where unions and their "relationships" with big government are to blame... big time!!
Regulation - Each new regulation imposed by government costs manufactures billions. Just paying people to bring facilities up to the "new" code, and keeping them in compliance is expensive because those "people" are "non-producing" employees. Last year we installed security cameras at a new tire manufacturer... they had a 5-person staff of "safety" directors that basically drove around on golf carts telling employees to put on their eye protection and such. What happened to personal responsibility?? Why is the employer expected to babysit adult employees?? Why is it the employer's fault if and employee removes his safety glasses (while standing next to a sign that says "_Protective Eye Wear Required_) and loses an eye?? Five "non-producing" employees pulling a salary, and benefits, and retirement, and paid vacations, and who-knows-what-else, all because of regulation!! It goes beyond common sense... it's stupid!! We are supposed to be adults, we are supposed to be old enough to take personal responsibility; yet forced, unfair and overreaching regulation treats us as children... and worse, we allow it!!

OK, just my take from the trenches. No intent to make this political, just a rebuttal to the "Hubbert curve theory" that "peak oil production/rising energy cost" is the driving factor in U.S. manufacturing closing and/or moving off-shore... 'cause it is just a "theory", and I ain't buying it.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 18, 2013)

Indeed - it is just a theory that if I keep drinking the coffee in this mug, then eventually coffee will stop coming out of it. Who knows, maybe that won't happen.


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## brokenbudget (Apr 18, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> Yeah honda put themselves out of the market with their parts prices (parts which are now made in china). For instance, we needed a new muffler for a 6.5 honda on a water pump - new price for an genuine muffler was around $200. A replacement chonda (complete engine) on the otherhand - $120. I know what I would buy...



where did you get the price for the 'genuine' honda muffler?
a muffler from honda for the gx series 6.5 is $34 bucks from dealer. includes the heat shield and spark arrestor.


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## Rudolf73 (Apr 18, 2013)

brokenbudget said:


> where did you get the price for the 'genuine' honda muffler?
> a muffler from honda for the gx series 6.5 is $34 bucks from dealer. includes the heat shield and spark arrestor.



It was from a honda dealer a while ago, but nothing is cheap over here. Eg, the dolmar/makita HD filter kit is around 200 also.


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## brokenbudget (Apr 18, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> It was from a honda dealer a while ago, but nothing is cheap over here. Eg, the dolmar/makita HD filter kit is around 200 also.



crap rudolf! didn't see you were down under i totaly get the price you gotsed.


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## Whitespider (Apr 18, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> *Indeed - it is just a theory that if I keep drinking the coffee in this mug, then eventually coffee will stop coming out of it.*



No... that is not a theory, it's a fact easily proved.

But the amount of oil under the earth surface, where it originates, and how it's produced by natural processes is all based on unproven theory. There is even strong evidence to suggest that oil does not come from the "dead dinosaur theory", rather it is produced by natural earth geologic processes (old, depleted oil fields are filling back up) and we are finding oil where it cannot possibly be according to the antiquated "theories". Do you get that?? Oil could very well be a "renewable resource"!! The decline in U.S., or even world-wide oil production has nothing to do with how much total oil there is... it only has to do with how much oil there is _where we are pumping_, and/or how much our government(s) allow to be pumped. The "strategic oil reserve" program is based on antiquated theory and should be abolished... theories and _facts_ have come a long way since its inception. Yeah, U.S. oil production has declined since the 70's, but we now know there is more "accessible" oil within our borders than was even dreamed possible in the 70's... just look at what's happening in North Dakota, and that's only being 10% exploited by some estimates. Yep, we've pumped most of the "easy" to get oil (that we know of), but that in no way makes the not-quite-as-easy-to-get oil unworthy of our efforts (especially with new technology)... it damn sure makes more sense then what we're doing now! The longer we wait, the further antiquated our technology becomes.

I do not believe the oil supply is even close to half gone... and I believe it is _*possible*_ that oil is in fact "renewable" by geologic processes, thereby making it a never ending supply. What I do not do, is accept _unproven_ theory as fact!
I do not drink the kool-aid.


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## Chris-PA (Apr 18, 2013)

Whitespider said:


> No... that is not a theory, it's a fact easily proved.
> 
> But the amount of oil under the earth surface, where it originates, and how it's produced by natural processes is all based on unproven theory. There is even strong evidence to suggest that oil does not come from the "dead dinosaur theory", rather it is produced by natural earth geologic processes (old, depleted oil fields are filling back up) and we are finding oil where it cannot possibly be according to the antiquated "theories". Do you get that?? Oil could very well be a "renewable resource"!! The decline in U.S., or even world-wide oil production has nothing to do with how much total oil there is... it only has to do with how much oil there is _where we are pumping_, and/or how much our government(s) allow to be pumped. The "strategic oil reserve" program is based on antiquated theory and should be abolished... theories and _facts_ have come a long way since its inception. Yeah, U.S. oil production has declined since the 70's, but we now know there is more "accessible" oil within our borders than was even dreamed possible in the 70's... just look at what's happening in North Dakota, and that's only being 10% exploited by some estimates. Yep, we've pumped most of the "easy" to get oil (that we know of), but that in no way makes the not-quite-as-easy-to-get oil unworthy of our efforts (especially with new technology)... it damn sure makes more sense then what we're doing now! The longer we wait, the further antiquated our technology becomes.
> 
> ...


Good luck with your beliefs about oil. I'll stick with what I've learned after years of studying it, which fits well with the observed reality. It is not important to me to convince you, though I expect your views will lead to your being surprised by what happens. This has wandered a bit far from Chinese engines and it would take far to long to detail anyway, especially in a firewood forum.


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## Whitespider (Apr 18, 2013)

Chris-PA said:


> ...your being *surprised* by what happens.



Well... I believe we can agree on something... there are surely some big "_*surprises*_" coming!


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## zogger (Apr 18, 2013)

*Diesels?*

Anyone have any experience with the little chinese diesels? I know they arent as cheap as the chondas (which is a cool name..) but still cheap compared to other sources of small diesels.


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## hamish (Apr 18, 2013)

half said:


> Down in the south pacific we have had chinese stuff for while now, the Chinese are an adaptable manufacturer.They will build to your price. If you want a cheap piece of s--t they will build it for you.And if you want quality they will do that too. If they are putting their name on it usually is is quite competitive in quality and price.



Best response to this post is written above. The product is built to the specifications of the customer. The customer is the buyer/importer etc...not the end user (you). 

For those that whine about the "garbage products" well they are made to the specifications and dollar terms of your own fellow countrymen, not the country that made them. China has a very technologically advanced industrial complex, and its capacity if out of this world.


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## Rudolf73 (Apr 18, 2013)

zogger said:


> Anyone have any experience with the little chinese diesels? I know they arent as cheap as the chondas (which is a cool name..) but still cheap compared to other sources of small diesels.



I have been researching them for the past few days, the most popular versions seem to be yanmar clones between 4 and 25hp. Guys have put them into choppers with success, do some you youtube searching. The v-twin diesel bobber sounds sweet to me - I want one lol. 

The single cylinders start around $300 ex china and the twins are around $650 plus. Any brand name small diesels are $4k plus over here which is a bit steep for me. I am tempted to import one just for fun.


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## Iron Head (Apr 18, 2013)

To me anything and everything from China is junk.
I hate chinese stuff and always avoid them.


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## Rudolf73 (Apr 18, 2013)

Iron Head said:


> To me anything and everything from China is junk.
> I hate chinese stuff and always avoid them.



If you take a peek inside most of the stuff you bought in the last 5-10 years, eg. computers, appliances, machinery, etc you'll see China stamped all over it. Don't get me wrong, I try and support local companies when I can, but it would be almost impossible to say that you are simply going to avoid buying chinese stuff.


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## Iron Head (Apr 21, 2013)

Rudolf73 said:


> If you take a peek inside most of the stuff you bought in the last 5-10 years, eg. computers, appliances, machinery, etc you'll see China stamped all over it. Don't get me wrong, I try and support local companies when I can, but it would be almost impossible to say that you are simply going to avoid buying chinese stuff.


You don't have to tell me that. I know it that is why nothing in my house or on my body is MADE IN CHINA.
Chinese don't invent, they steal and they replicate.
Chinese don't manufacture for quality, they manufacture for quantity.
Chinese is bad for America, I don't do Chinese.
The only Chinese I do is Chinese food..


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## Streblerm (Apr 21, 2013)

Iron Head said:


> You don't have to tell me that. I know it that is why nothing in my house or on my body is MADE IN CHINA.
> Chinese don't invent, they steal and they replicate.
> Chinese don't manufacture for quality, they manufacture for quantity.
> Chinese is bad for America, I don't do Chinese.
> The only Chinese I do is Chinese food..



I wouldn't be so sure about any of that, but if it helps you sleep better at night then just keep telling it to yourself. We are part of a global economy. "Made in the usa" doesn't come close to meaning it has no components from china.


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## mesupra (Apr 21, 2013)

Iron Head said:


> You don't have to tell me that. I know it that is why nothing in my house or on my body is MADE IN
> 
> Thats an awful bold and incorrect statement.
> 
> ...


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## blackdogon57 (Apr 21, 2013)

Iron Head said:


> You don't have to tell me that. I know it that is why nothing in my house or on my body is MADE IN CHINA.
> Chinese don't invent, they steal and they replicate.
> Chinese don't manufacture for quality, they manufacture for quantity.
> Chinese is bad for America, I don't do Chinese.
> The only Chinese I do is Chinese food..



I too avoid made in China , but nothing in your house is made there ? I find that hard to believe. Virtually all consumer electronics are made in china. iPhone, iPad, cell phones, tv, home appliances. - you name it it's made there. What type of computer do you have ?


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## mesupra (Apr 21, 2013)

What type of computer do you have ?[/QUOTE]


We will never know, he is outback hacking it to pieces with his china made hammer in his china made boots while drinking a coffee in a china made mug. LOL


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## TJ-Bill (Apr 21, 2013)

I have a 11hp Honda knock off on my spiltter. I put it on after my 11hp Honda died.. going on year 4 and no issues so far.. it was 1/3 the price of a honda. I'd do it again


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## RiverRocket (Apr 21, 2013)

Buy the cheapest piece of Chinese junk you can. isn't that the American way:msp_confused:
When it only last a few months, ##### a little, than buy another:bang:


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## Whitespider (Apr 21, 2013)

*Iron Head*,
Obviously you see China as the enemy… and you are making the classic mistake that will ultimately cause you to lose any battle or war with that enemy. You are severely underestimating your opponent!!

*- - …nothing in my house or on my body is MADE IN CHINA. - -*
Really?? Ignorance is bliss my friend… ignorance is bliss. Where do you suppose the keyboard you typed that on came from… or for that matter any part of your computer?? Cell Phone?? The control board in your furnace, or the wall thermostat it’s connected to?? The radio in your car?? TV, DVD player, cable box, satellite tuner, etc.?? Do you have kids, and do they have toys, especially toys with any sort of electronic stuff, even a flashing light?? Video games?? Microwave oven, toaster, blender, calculator, etc., etc., etc.?? The list goes on-and-on.

*- - Chinese don't invent, they steal and they replicate. - -*
Some Chinese companies “steal and they replicate”, just as some American companies do, but over 80% of Chinese exports are “brand name” products. And as far as inventions… historically the Chinese have invented more things to “advance” the world than any other country. The list is so long I couldn’t begin to name them all… heck, the rocket that put man on the moon was invent by the Chinese, as was the fork, paper and printing, the plow, both the belt and chain drive systems, the sail and rudder, the fishing reel, cast iron, gunpowder and gun, the cross bow, the knife, the compass and even toilet paper! Near all of our modern military weaponry is derived from Chinese inventions, as is much of our medical practices. Just during the last couple decades Chinese scientists have develop new weapons systems and have had groundbreaking breakthroughs in technology, much of it medically related.

*- - Chinese don't manufacture for quality, they manufacture for quantity. - -*
As stated above, most of Chinese exports are “brand name” items and are of very high quality.

*- - Chinese is bad for America… - -*
China ain’t bad for America… America is bad for America currently. The Chinese are only taking advantage of what we hand them, nothing more. It’s ignorant and narrow-minded to blame the Chinese for something of our own making. Like everything else now-a-days we refuse to take responsibility… _”it’s always someone else’s fault!”_ Until we are willing to once again take personal and national responsibility, America will continue to be bad for America! Placing the blame elsewhere will only send us deeper in the soup.



You really do need to stop drinkin' the kool-aid.


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## jthornton (Apr 21, 2013)

I have to agree with everything you just said.

I just happened to look at my local WalMart and 3 of 5 push mowers had an interesting sticker on them.

View attachment 291680
View attachment 291681
View attachment 291682


The other 2 push mowers engines were from the same plant but the lawnmower manufacturer didn't have the sticker on it.

John


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## rocketnorton (Apr 21, 2013)

*china...*



jthornton said:


> I have to agree with everything you just said.
> 
> I just happened to look at my local WalMart and 3 of 5 push mowers had an interesting sticker on them.
> 
> ...



having read everything in this thread, cant help thinkin how honda et al were "jap junk" in the 60's/early 70's, now hondas are the stick by which others are measured... china is the "bad guy" now, india might be 20 yr from now... i dont much care for chinese, try to avoid it when possible... that said, china is makin this reply possible... think ill go play with my pioneer...


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## aokpops (Apr 21, 2013)

Bought a 11 horse last June for my splitter at H F . A couple things I learned tighten the gas cap tight some how the vent will clog if lose . And don't overfill it tends to leak . Been real happy with it more power use less fuel an less noise . From day one don't remember pulling more than twice to start . Only been through 2 season of splitting but so far what I seen it might be running for a long time .


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