# being double tied into a spar question



## Plasmech (Nov 25, 2009)

I understand that some guys are comfortable with a single wirecore lanyard as being their sole life-line on a spar during chunking operations. However, what is the proper procedure as far as implementing your climbline as well as the lanyard for extra safety? Hoping to see a good picture of someone lanyarded AND "climblined-in" to the spar. I assume you make two wraps with your climbline and effectively use it as a second lanyard, one that will choke the spar and not slide down should your spikes gaff-out on you? Thanks for any help!


----------



## alinicoll (Nov 25, 2009)

Sorry no pics but lanyard at the top for support and below that (i usually let it hang a bit below is you main climbing system. As tight as you can get it or double wrapped on little stuff, a bit looser on bigger stuff. You want it loose enough that it will slip down easily when you want it to but if you drop it will catch you. I don`t like wire strops either but you can use the same system with a wire strop.


----------



## squad143 (Nov 25, 2009)

A little hard to tell, but my climbing line is wrapped, along with my (orange) wirecore flipline, around the spar. There was no need to "double wrap" - where are you going to slide to?

Unless the dia. of the tree is really small, I will rarely double wrap. If you're gaffing out regularly, try a different body position, sharpening your spurs, concentrate on what you are doing, or get a different profession.

Occasionally I'll have a single spur slip, rarely both, but when it does happen, they usually bite back in.


----------



## squad143 (Nov 25, 2009)

On a very large diameter spar, I will tie my climbing line to the spar with a bowline on a bight and then attach it to my harness via a fig.8 descender or beeline with a swabish knot.

This way I can descend down to my next cut, via my climbing line and have a high tie in point to work around the spar -making my notch, side cuts, eyeing up my backcut and wrapping my false crotch.

I'll leave extra tail on the bight on the bowline so I can loosen the bowline from below. Once the bowline is down to my level, I reset it below my cut (and above my false crotch) and I'm ready to make my back cut.

All this can be accomplished while still tied in with my wirecore.

The bowline on the bite stays tight on the spar in case of a wild ride, or if I have to make a quick descent (animals, bees, etc.)


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 4, 2009)

squad143 said:


> On a very large diameter spar, I will tie my climbing line to the spar with a bowline on a bight and then attach it to my harness via a fig.8 descender or beeline with a swabish knot.
> 
> This way I can descend down to my next cut, via my climbing line and have a high tie in point to work around the spar -making my notch, side cuts, eyeing up my backcut and wrapping my false crotch.
> 
> ...





Do you mean a Running Bowline, no bowline on a bight?

That is a good system. What are you using to attach to the rope?
I use a GriGri with running bowline. 

An adjustable false crotch is a very good system as well. This can be used with a hitch or mechanincal descender like a GriGri.

This AFC system will help to protect the climber if the stem splits. If this happens, the ring will press your friction hitch open enough for the AFC to expand. This system is effective when working a spar with no stubs.


----------



## squad143 (Dec 4, 2009)

southsoundtree said:


> Do you mean a Running Bowline, no bowline on a bight?
> 
> What are you using to attach to the rope?
> 
> ...


----------



## treesquirrel (Dec 4, 2009)

If I am cutting I am tied in twice, one flipline and then a lanyard or with the climbing line.


----------



## MillerTreeMN (Dec 4, 2009)

if i am going UP in a hurry just a single wire core line. 

when i am cutting, i have a second buck strap hanging lower. 

when i am topping the tree, i double wrap the secondary buck strap in case my spikes slip i dont have far to go.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 6, 2009)

*Tie-In Technique*



Plasmech said:


> I understand that some guys are comfortable with a single wirecore lanyard as being their sole life-line on a spar during chunking operations. However, what is the proper procedure as far as implementing your climbline as well as the lanyard for extra safety? *Hoping to see a good picture of someone lanyarded AND "climblined-in" to the spar.* I assume you make two wraps with your climbline and effectively use it as a second lanyard, one that will choke the spar and not slide down should your spikes gaff-out on you? Thanks for any help!



*Plas -*

*Here's a good article & "good picture" that should answer your question":*

*Tie-In Technique*

- Jack


----------



## RacerX (Dec 6, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *Plas -*
> 
> *Here's a good article & "good picture" that should answer your question":*
> 
> ...




Nice article, does anyone else have some photo's?


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 6, 2009)

http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu303/southsoundtree/?action=view&current=P1030153.jpg






This is working a removal with an adjustable ring and ring, with adjustable prussic ring, false crotch set-up. 

The orange end is the large end, so that side goes to the termination on the saddle. The end that is out of view (sorry) is the small ring side with the adjustable prussic-ed ring. This chokes the trunk so you have an emergency lower-out set in case there is the need. You need to keep several inches between rings. 

This work with a friction hitch such that if the spar splits, such as when dropping the top, the small ring will depress the top of the friction hitch, which in theory will release it, preventing you from being squished by the expanding spar. As you ascend, you slide your adj. prussic-ed ring side/ small side toward the large side to keep you rings apart. When dropping logs, you can lower off, then slack the system to shake the AFC down, while relying on your spikes and flipline.


----------



## RacerX (Dec 7, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *Plas -*
> 
> *Here's a good article & "good picture" that should answer your question":*
> 
> ...




Can anyone tell what kind of hitch he has on that tie in point? It looks like a split tail with a hitch of some sort or is it a plain old prusik? I would vote against the prusik because I can only see one attachment point to the saddle.

http://74.220.17.2/pdf/tie-in.pdf


----------



## RacerX (Dec 8, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> It looks like a prussic but the split tail he has it tied in looks like it's a spliced loop. I've heard them called spliced prussic loops and they use to be quite popular. I've got a few in the shop done up with three strand from years ago.





After looking again I believe that you're right. A 3-strand with a long loop on one end for the pruisk and a small eye with a thimble on the other end.


----------



## outofmytree (Dec 8, 2009)

I posted this somewhere else but I am too lazy to look for the link. This is my usual blocking down set up except I use a different friction hitch now. 
















If I have any concern about the trunk splitting when the top comes out I use tie down straps rated to 1400kg. If they split I was dead anyway. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 8, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> I posted this somewhere else but I am too lazy to look for the link. This is my usual blocking down set up except I use a different friction hitch now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What friction hitch are you using with Single Rope Technique?
Are you getting extra friction to keep the hitch from locking up by running it along the rope by clipping it inside the pulley, seemingly pinching the rope against the pulley sheave?
Does it allow an emergency descent, or just serve as a second TIP?

Does your knot ever lock up on you portion of the rope that the knot is choking.


----------



## scubadude1188 (Dec 8, 2009)

Just pop a figure 8 underneath your not and you don't have the problem of the friction hitch locking up. The figure 8 takes enough of the friction to keep the knot working correctly.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 8, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> ...
> This is my usual blocking down set up
> ...
> 
> ...



*I'm really interested in your lifeline tie-in knot. * You're using a TFL which is a cinching knot. 

I'm used to a running bowline at line end or a fig 8 on a bite at mid-line. 

So, how do you release or 'shake-down' your tie-in when you set-up for your next blocking cut?


----------



## outofmytree (Dec 9, 2009)

The friction hitch pictured is a version of a french prussik I have experimented with. I am currently using a Schwabisch and like that even more.

Repositioning is quite simple as it is a back up only so the neither the termination knot nor the prussik normally get any weight. 

No I don't have any issues with descending srt on this hitch but the prussik needs a lot of loosening afterward.  

The advantages I find using this set up is that the loop stays put even on smooth trunks and the hitch is so short if I do go for a ride it will be a much shorter drop than my old rig. Of course no drop at all is best.


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 9, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The friction hitch pictured is a version of a french prussik I have experimented with. I am currently using a Schwabisch and like that even more.
> 
> Repositioning is quite simple as it is a back up only so the neither the termination knot nor the prussik normally get any weight.
> 
> ...



Ya know how SRT and Friction hitches usually don't work together, so people are using the F8 Revolver to add friction so that the hitch runs smoothly, so how is it working for you? Are you lighter than the average climber?

I use a running bowline and lean into it a lot for work positioning (in addition to a flipline). If I run it around the tree clockwise, then I can lean against it toward the left/ 9 O'clock position. This is where loading it while in the tree made me wonder about that system loosening up/ locking up. Its more compact than a running bowline, as something in its favor. 

thoughts? Thanks.


----------



## outofmytree (Dec 10, 2009)

Locking around a trunk is a GOOD idea especially a leaner. This rig works great for that. Descending SRT on a friction hitch of any sort is going to test prussik cord for sure. I rate this rig about 6/10 for descending and 8/10 for all other work. I am experimenting with a Schwabisch 'cos I would like 10/10 all round!

At 85kg I doubt I am lighter than average just lighter than StihloMatic


----------



## grizzly2 (Dec 10, 2009)

OutofMyTree: I am very curious as to how you have the cordage tied 'inside' of the pulley. How does is it work? Better yet, does it work?


----------



## outofmytree (Dec 10, 2009)

grizzly2 said:


> OutofMyTree: I am very curious as to how you have the cordage tied 'inside' of the pulley. How does is it work? Better yet, does it work?



It saves room on the karabiner. Nothing else to it really. I prefer to tie my own prussiks and adjust the length untill it "sits" just right then snip off the end. You can't do that with a store bought splice and I have not learned to splice my own yet. So I use dfl's for terminations and they take a fair bit of room.


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 10, 2009)

more that one way to skin a cat.


----------



## Plasmech (Dec 11, 2009)

I like that a lot man. I think I might play around with that some time. Thanks for posting those pictures!!! Seems a lot easier to move your secondary tie-in down the tree with a cinch knot that can be loosened.





outofmytree said:


> I posted this somewhere else but I am too lazy to look for the link. This is my usual blocking down set up except I use a different friction hitch now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 14, 2009)

*Double tie-in to a spar*

*outofmytree* asked for some pix of an F8 tie-in to a spar with rap down:

*Double tie-in to a spar = F8 biner choker TIP + Lanyard tie-in:
*





*Drop Lanyard tie-in & rap down from F8 choker:*





*Reset Lanyard tie-in, then ... Pull down F8 TIP (with line on right):*





*Reset F8 TIP :*





*Questions, complaints, advice ... welcome.*


----------



## scubadude1188 (Dec 15, 2009)

I'd say everything looks good except that last picture. The gate was facing down which means that when you weight the tie in you'll load the gate, which isn't good. Just make sure to have the gate facing up when you tie in this way.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 15, 2009)

:agree2: Good catch, *scubadude1188*, thanks!!! 
I was too busy taking pix ... changed that last pic to avoid any mis-guidance to anyone ... just in time, too, the liability lawyers were lining up at my door.


----------



## outofmytree (Dec 15, 2009)

Now I see what you meant SJ. I had a mental picture of that rig but without the krab captured by the f8 termination. I thought you meant to tie the f8 back on the rope itself. The weight of the krab makes a real difference when retrieving the rope. You could also use a friction hitch instead of the descender although if you rappel of course the hitch will need to be worked off at the bottom.

Nice clear pictures too. Easy to understand. Good stuff!


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 15, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Now I see what you meant SJ. I had a mental picture of that rig but without the krab captured by the f8 termination. I thought you meant to tie the f8 back on the rope itself. The weight of the krab makes a real difference when retrieving the rope. *You could also use a friction hitch instead of the descender although if you rappel of course the hitch will need to be worked off at the bottom.*
> 
> Nice clear pictures too. Easy to understand. Good stuff!



Thanks!!! 

I've not been a big fan of friction hitch for an SRT rap ... the GG is new and I'm lovin' it ... part of a RAD SRT system I'm working on ... *but that's for another thread - when I'm done.*

-Jack


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 15, 2009)

the F8 revolver works well for working a single line with a hitch


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 15, 2009)

here is a video of me using the f8 revolver. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyXwrXgN0qw


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 15, 2009)

basically, decending SRT on a hitch sucks. It burns up your hands and your hitch and you cant go very fast. And it locks on the the line. the F8 revolver takes the heat off and allowys you to fly. Being on a roller, it acts like a gri gri or a cinch as you climb the tree so you can go up too and work the tree. For longer acents you just pop it off and remain tied in with the hitch to the line. Its great on a spar.

here is a real blurry clip of me climbing a spar with it attached.


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 15, 2009)

oh here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI5pkzHha8&feature=related


----------



## Treetom (Dec 15, 2009)

That looks like a pretty smooth rig you got there. Can't see everything real clear, though. Do you have any more pics?


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 15, 2009)

here are a few more. the last pic shows how I flip the revolver to my bridge thus advancing the hitch into a footlock cord.


----------



## Treetom (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanks for the pics. Time to hook a rope on a beam in my garage and try it out.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 15, 2009)

kevin bingham said:


> the *F8 revolver *works well for working a single line with a hitch



MAN!!! ... you're back ... I was really interested in your 'system' ... you post a few great posts and disappear ... feared the worst!!! 

WELCOME ... DON'T GO AWAY, AGAIN!!!


----------



## Komitet (Dec 16, 2009)

For a spar I'll use my pole choker and lanyard, either that or I'll just choke my climbing line with a lanyard as well


----------



## ChipDoogle (Dec 16, 2009)

kevin bingham said:


> the F8 revolver works well for working a single line with a hitch



Hey kevin, I just picked this up the other day, thought you might like it. Dont have to worry about the revolver twisting, not that it would but possible i suppose.


----------



## ChipDoogle (Dec 16, 2009)

Also thought this was a must read for this topic. Plus good picture of entire setup.


Just copy and paste and take the space out between (tree and buzz) and it should work fine. it wont let me post the exact link on here

www.tree buzz.com/pdf/tie-in.pdf


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 16, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> Also thought this was a must read for this topic. Plus good picture of entire setup.
> 
> 
> *Just copy and paste and take the space out between (tree and buzz) and it should work fine. it wont let me post the exact link on here*
> ...



That link was used in post #9 on this thread. FYI, you can use the url address instead of the url name it will not be censored (don't tell anybody). Here's how to enter it in a post: 

http://74.220.17.2/pdf/tie-in.pdf



SINGLE-JACK said:


> *Plas -*
> 
> *Here's a good article & "good picture" that should answer your question":*
> 
> ...


----------



## ChipDoogle (Dec 16, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> That link was used in post #9 on this thread. FYI, you can use the url address instead of the url name it will not be censored (don't tell anybody). Here's how to enter it in a post:
> 
> http://74.220.17.2/pdf/tie-in.pdf



My bad, guess I should have read all the way thru, howh do you get the url address vs name???


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 16, 2009)

ChipDoogle said:


> My bad, guess I should have read all the way thru, howh do you get the url address vs name???



Actually what you want is the "IP" address for the "URL". There are several lookup services. Here's one example:
http://www.who.is/whois/arboristsite.com/
Just type in the name of the site and look for its "IP ADDRESS" on the web page.

*PLEASE excuse the tempory hi-jack, Plasmech!!!
Now back your regularly scheduled programming (thread):

being double tied into a spar question*


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 16, 2009)

yeah it can be done a variation of ways. With the pulley and ring is what Rich Hattier found works best for him. The revolver isnt necesary so much. I have heard that the smallest ISC biner the gator or the gecko, works well as it noses right in there. I like the biner and eight because it is only one thing to unclip and manage. the pulley is two pieces to try to handle with gloves and frozen fingers. But I think it does work well. I have not had any issue with the revolver twisting around. 
I keep my tether long for a variety of reasons but it can sometimes be tricky working it through a crotch. 

I tried a gri gri finally. And I would have to say the decent felt really choppy and I could not really feather it or feel comfortable to engage it while I was swinging or jumping. I have not tried a cinch. 

i like climbing on the thicker poison ivy or 16 strand lines.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 16, 2009)

kevin bingham said:


> yeah it can be done a variation of ways. With the pulley and ring is what Rich Hattier found works best for him. The revolver isnt necesary so much. I have heard that the smallest ISC biner the gator or the gecko, works well as it noses right in there. I like the biner and eight because it is only one thing to unclip and manage. the pulley is two pieces to try to handle with gloves and frozen fingers. But I think it does work well. I have not had any issue with the revolver twisting around.
> I keep my tether long for a variety of reasons but it can sometimes be tricky working it through a crotch.
> 
> *I tried a gri gri finally. And I would have to say the decent felt really choppy and I could not really feather it or feel comfortable to engage it while I was swinging or jumping.* I have not tried a cinch.
> ...



I'm new to the GG, too. I've found to "feather it" is frustrating, too. So, I treat it the way I do an f8. The instructions specify the GG is meant to be two-handed. That is, pull the lever, then control the rate of descent with the right hand - much like with an f8. Then, it definitely works better than f8, because when you let go you don't end up on your back, 50 feet down. 

I've used an f8 all my life for a descent - the GG is a step up - but I'm still working on getting most out of it - you really have to think different.


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 19, 2009)

yeah, i think that is what i didnt like about the gri gri. That you had to use two hands to decend with. It was hard on like a limb walk and i have one hand on the tree and then with the other hand operate the lever just right. Like either too much or too little.m im sure it comes with practice. 
I guess I just am so used to how a hitch functions from climbing dDRt. Being able to set up a RADS is the one huge advantage of a gri gri or a cinch. I have not been able to figure out how yet with the F8 Revolver set up.


----------



## southsoundtree (Dec 19, 2009)

kevin bingham said:


> yeah, i think that is what i didnt like about the gri gri. That you had to use two hands to decend with. It was hard on like a limb walk and i have one hand on the tree and then with the other hand operate the lever just right. Like either too much or too little.m im sure it comes with practice.
> I guess I just am so used to how a hitch functions from climbing dDRt. Being able to set up a RADS is the one huge advantage of a gri gri or a cinch. I have not been able to figure out how yet with the F8 Revolver set up.



The GG does have its ups and downs. I think that it doesn't work as well with a 1/2" as it would with a bit smaller line. 

For SRT, you can utilize it in ways that you can't utilize a hitch. 

Rope weight is an issue. I sometimes will pull up a bight and clip it off to my harness, so that I have 10' of rope pulling down instead of a lot more. 

I will just close the cam with my hand rather than the lever, if I am not putting too much weight on it, and don't have too much rope hanging down. 

It is not a be-all-end-all tool, but it has its place, especially with RADS. Easy to shoot high in the tree, through a good crotch, and tie-off to the base of tree/ POW/ LD. Climb a little and you're ready to limbwalk for canopy raises on conifers.


----------



## kevin bingham (Dec 19, 2009)

A gri gri can only be utilized in a RADS type of system though right? As far as Ive seen its the only way to go directly up a rope while remaining clipped in to the gri gri. A hitch can be used as or in conjunction with acenders quite easily.


----------

