# Blasting a tree question?



## huskyhank (May 4, 2013)

Howdy Gents,

I have a tree that needs to come down at my shooting range. Its a maple a little over 2' diameter. I think the top got hit by lightning some time ago and its got four big dead-men hanging in it. Big branches - big as my waist. It has greened out this year but only part way, so not dead but well on its way. The butt has a big hollow, a lot of rot and funk. I'm hesitating on cutting it and thinking its a good candidate for blasting. The tree is away from anything breakable, but people walk under it frequently -- as in every person who walks onto the range. Can anyone give me an idea about how blasting a tree is done? I think I can get supplies at the Co-op.

Thank you.


----------



## Rosco (May 4, 2013)

Sounds like a great excuse to shoot a few pounds of Tannerite.:hmm3grin2orange:

Tom


----------



## northmanlogging (May 5, 2013)

Tannerite will do ya, but your probably going to need 4-5 pounds of it, the bonus its tannerite is legal to purchase without a permit.

To do it proper you would need detonation cord, blasting caps, and ANFO. All these things require a permit and a licence. While not impossible to get, it is a pain and expensive, ironically the blasting agents are cheap...

And if you can get this stuff at your local co-op I may have to consider moving...


Now as far as getting it down, hire a pro. No I mean hire a pro on this one. They know how to judge how much BOOM to use and be safe about it. Besides any way you slice it you will need det cord to tie all the BOOM together, and for that you need a license.


----------



## RandyMac (May 5, 2013)

Get a few 12 packs, then set fire to it.


----------



## huskyhank (May 5, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> Get a few 12 packs, then set fire to it.



That is funny!


----------



## Gologit (May 5, 2013)

huskyhank said:


> That is funny!



It"s funny alright but think about it for a minute. It might be your best bet. Get a bunch of the guys together, hotdogs and beverages, make a party out of it.

To buy or possess explosives, not to mention using them, you have to have a federal license. The hoops you'd have to jump through are unbelievable. The fees for the permits will put you in the poorhouse. The exam for a blaster's license is intense.

If you know anybody that's a licensed blaster talk to them about it.

In the meantime...gasoline, matches, food, beverages....party.


----------



## 056 kid (May 5, 2013)

Potassium perchlorate and dark aluminum powder mixed 70:30. Much more boom compared to tannerite I think believe. If its hollow maybe you can shoot it over.
Edit, quicker boom, less powerful, so tannerite would be better.


----------



## Humptulips (May 5, 2013)

Bring in a trackhoe and push it over.


----------



## Cfaller (May 5, 2013)

If you do decide to burn it. Cut two or three 6-8 inch triangle holes in the trunk so it can get some air. Pile a fair amount of wood at the bottom and wait. This will usually take longer then you think. Once the top falls out, the trunk will look like a roman candle for a while. A word of caution is you typically won't know when or where it will fall. So stay the hell out of the way!:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Gologit (May 5, 2013)

056 kid said:


> Potassium perchlorate and dark aluminum powder mixed 70:30. Much more boom compared to tannerite I think believe. If its hollow maybe you can shoot it over.



Fuse, caps, delays, boosters? 
Instadets?
Miladets?
Where would you place how much material?
Drill and fill or wrapped charge? 
If it's drill and fill what do you use for tamping?
If it's wrapped how are you going to afix it to the tree?
How would you set it off?


----------



## 056 kid (May 5, 2013)

Without seeing the tree I guess my approach would be to cut a window out and shove a sealed charge in the there. I think a paint can with say 3 or 4 lbs in it with a roll or two of duct tape wrapped around would do some damage. A regular old fuse, at least 3 minutes and a path to safety. I haven't done anything bigger than a few ozs at a time so I could be off.


----------



## rwoods (May 5, 2013)

I had considered blasting some large dangerous-to-cut dead pines but have decided to let nature have its course after abandoning the idea for a variety of reasons including some of those mentioned. I am told that once upon a time your local AG extension offices published stump blasting instructions and formulaes, but no longer in this lawsuit crazy and psycho fixated society we now enjoy. You could Google for this but that will probably put you on some terrorist watch list. For you own safety and that of others who might otherwise participate or stand by, I would suggest you take one of the alternative non-explosive methods already mentioned.

Ron

PS Shooting range!!! Forget the tree for a minute and tell us who has any common ammo for sale. Can't even find a box of .22 Long Rifle lately. It seems like only yesterday that shooting a couple hundred rounds or more at a time was routine and the only consideration was the cost, and then only if you were shooting anything besides a .22LR.


----------



## jrcat (May 5, 2013)

I like the excavator idea .....sounds safer. Any 200 size machine will take out a tree like that ie: JD 200 or a komatsu 200. I have tipped many out with an old 690E LC deere. Cut the roots on the side you push from and leave the other side as a hinge. Then move back reach up and push. Blasting it would...well be a blast, but as mentioned by the others here expensive. I have even tipped a few out with a TD-15E Thats dangerous too as you dont have much control. That 690 I ran could pull out a loaded tractor/walking floor with just the boom alone, and I mean loaded like 114,000lbs . So that tree ....no contest.


----------



## warejn (May 5, 2013)

Hey All,

I am fairly new here, I figured I could chime in on this. I am a firefighter and timber faller. I used to work for the Feds and now work at a structure department in the mountains where I still get to tip over trees. Most of my hazard falling has come from fire and contract falling work. I am also a Heavy Equipment Boss on wildfires. 

For years I was all about hand falling everything. Man up and get it done type stuff. In the last 6 years or so I have grown up a bit. When it comes to hazard trees, machines are the way to go or burn it out. Exposing yourself to hazards when you don't need to is just not a good idea. Getting thumb tacked for no reason sucks. Blasting is cool to watch, I have worked with blasters in NorCal and it was cool, but really something I never thought was a great option.

Get a machine with ROPS and FOPS to push it over and process it on the ground or light it up.

I have burned out plenty of trees that I didn't want to tip due to hazards. Just make sure it doesn't become a problem on the ground with a bit of fire. We will prep the whole area it can fall in, remove all the vertical component and build a line 1.5 times the height around the area it can fall in. Light it up, take bets on where and when it goes and then done.


----------



## OlympicYJ (May 5, 2013)

As north said if you use tannerite you'll more than likely need 4-5 pounds. I'd maybe go a bit more like 6 if you choose this option. Shoot it with something big too. I cracked half a stump with 2.5 pounds just to try the stuff out and to root that whole stump allot more was needed. Or you could just get a can of black powder and some cannon fuse.

To get an idea of what it'll take with tannerite look up vids on youtube. You'll at least have fun watching.

I think pics are in order if you torch it or blow it!


----------



## Gologit (May 5, 2013)

warejn said:


> . When it comes to hazard trees, machines are the way to go or burn it out. .





One thing about your method...it certainly keeps you boys busy. It's good to have something to do. It's a great opportunity when you can create new work for yourself and a crew. I'm sure you're all very pleased. 

Bringing in equipment, cutting line...all that takes people and machinery. And dollars, lots of dollars. Your agency must not be under the same budget constraints that a lot of them are. It must be great to be able to throw a lot of machinery, money, and people at a hazard tree. 

Your statement that I quoted, taken as a whole, is pure crap. Sorry to be blunt, but it is absolutely wrong.

There are still plenty of hazard trees that be safely fallen by a guy with a saw. To make a blanket statement that machines are the way to go points out either a woeful lack of practical experience on your part or a bureaucratic attitude that excludes consideration of any other method.

What say you? Do you think that fallers should just leave hazard trees alone or should the degree of risk involved determine the method?

I know which idea I'd pick...but I'm a little biased.


Oh...welcome to AS.


----------



## huskyhank (May 5, 2013)

Maybe I'll try to pull the broken top out - its not very tall. Then cut it. I guess I forgot about modern times and all that stuff. Blasting seemed simple at first. Don't think I have enough water nearby to burn safely. Not enough money for equipment. If I do something that might get stupidly exciting I'll be sure to bring back pics or vids.


----------



## northmanlogging (May 5, 2013)

as much fun as blasting would be... I made most of my early "tree service" work falling snags. It can be done you just have to be careful and know when to walk away (know when to run). 

That decision is entirely up to the guy holding the saw though. And don't make it a macho thing either, I guarantee that if I or any other semi pro faller where to walk away from a tree, anybody else should take a long hard look as to why. That is not saying I'm a total badass, just if there is something funny or wrong I will see it where others will not (one of my superhero powers)


----------



## huskyhank (May 5, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> as much fun as blasting would be... I made most of my early "tree service" work falling snags. It can be done you just have to be careful and know when to walk away (know when to run).
> 
> That decision is entirely up to the guy holding the saw though. And don't make it a macho thing either, I guarantee that if I or any other semi pro faller where to walk away from a tree, anybody else should take a long hard look as to why. That is not saying I'm a total badass, just if there is something funny or wrong I will see it where others will not (one of my superhero powers)



Gotcha.
The main tree is not scary. The parts of the tree hanging in the top are.
And I'm old enough to not easily embarrass. I've looked stupid enough times now that it just does not matter much anymore. 
:biggrin:


----------



## warejn (May 5, 2013)

It all depends on the hazard tree and the risk. I have been tipping trees for 13 years which i think is a good start. I am still learning and don't claim to be the best at anything. I used to have the mentality that all trees should be tipped by hand falling. After working with a lot of old fallers and foresters I learned that sometimes it is better to decline tipping it by hand and use another method.

There are a lot of variables in a " hazard tree". What some call a hazard, others call run of the mill. It is based on the comfort level of the sawyer. 

A "hazard tree" is totally subjective. The OP didn't feel comfortable tipping the tree by hand so he was looking for other options. Another faller may look at it and tip it with out a second thought. In my younger days I had a lot of close calls, mainly based on bravado and inexperience. Now I look at timber with a healthy amount of respect. 

Besides, prepping a bit of line and burning them out is pretty fun. Although, I have to admit, the blasting option sounds like a whole lot of fun.


----------



## BC_Logger (May 6, 2013)

With a degree in explosive engineering and as a licensed blaster hire a pro if you go this way, I've seen a few deaths as a result of DIY blasting jobs. 


Get a few buddies good rope, saw, maybe a winch and pull it over, buck it up, back the trucks up crack a few and have a good bonfire


----------



## woodchuck357 (May 7, 2013)

rwoods said:


> but no longer in this lawsuit crazy and psycho fixated society we now enjoy. You could Google for this but that will probably put you on some terrorist watch list.


Probably already on the list for posting to a thread that included the word "blasting"!


----------



## catbuster (Dec 4, 2013)

I do a lot of things in-house with my crew. I'm the boss. I've done everything from basalt excavation to marine salvage. Blasting in not something I'm qualified to do. I hired an extra guy on my crew to do two things: blast and drive a dump truck. Any idiot who knows anything about driving and heavy equipment can drive a a Volvo 6x6 dump. I hired him to blast. I've taken some bomb tech classes from my days on the FD, but I don't touch explosives.

The issue with explosives is that if you mess up, bad things happen. It's not like poker. You mess up, you lose a hand and $20. With explosives you literally lose a hand. And your eyesight. And maybe your life. 

I would use a large excavator if it was clear of everything. I'm saying 23 metric tons (Cat 320, Komatsu PC210, Hitachi ZX210, Volvo EC210, etc.) Just knock it over.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 4, 2013)

catbuster said:


> I do a lot of things in-house with my crew. I'm the boss. I've done everything from basalt excavation to marine salvage. Blasting in not something I'm qualified to do. I hired an extra guy on my crew to do two things: blast and drive a dump truck. Any idiot who knows anything about driving and heavy equipment can drive a a Volvo 6x6 dump. I hired him to blast. I've taken some bomb tech classes from my days on the FD, but I don't touch explosives.
> 
> The issue with explosives is that if you mess up, bad things happen. It's not like poker. You mess up, you lose a hand and $20. With explosives you literally lose a hand. And your eyesight. And maybe your life.
> 
> I would use a large excavator if it was clear of everything. I'm saying 23 metric tons (Cat 320, Komatsu PC210, Hitachi ZX210, Volvo EC210, etc.) Just knock it over.




You have a licensed blaster and he's willing to drive a dump truck? You don't see that very often. Is he buying and storing the explosives on his permit or yours? I'm not giving you a hard time and it's really not any of my business but if you're not dotting your I's and crossing your T's ATF will come down on you like a ton of bricks.


----------



## HuskStihl (Dec 4, 2013)

In the early 80's I owned a "Ghetto Blaster". Stored it on my shoulder. Seeing a big excavator pull a tree out of the ground like a weed is a good lesson in "holy **** that thing is strongology"


----------



## redprospector (Dec 4, 2013)

I know a powder monkey.
No, wait.
Yep, forget it. He's dead.

Andy


----------



## Gologit (Dec 5, 2013)

redprospector said:


> I know a powder monkey.
> No, wait.
> Yep, forget it. He's dead.
> 
> Andy


 Yup. Where _is_ that guy? He was here just a minute ago.


----------



## huskyhank (Dec 5, 2013)

Well, seeing this come back to life and realizing I never let y'all know what happened -- I cut it. 
Went fine, no problems, and all the guys think I know all about falling.
Big ol' old saw and dirty greasy saw chaps probably helped, and it went where I said it would.

Still, it would have been fun to blow something up. 
But I guess that's an impractical thought these days.

Glad to see the forum alive again!


----------



## madhatte (Dec 5, 2013)

Gologit said:


> In the meantime...gasoline, matches, food, beverages....party.



I like how you think.


----------



## paccity (Dec 5, 2013)

i'll tell some of you when we meet up again. wait , what is the statute of limatations .


----------



## northmanlogging (Dec 5, 2013)

nonexistent in OR, hence why I'm still wanted there...


----------



## OlympicYJ (Dec 10, 2013)

Explosives aren't so dangerous it's the people using them. Done a little blasting in a mine safetey training course. We were using really stable stuff. Anfo and watergel. Watergel can be thrown around, gotta be careful with the boosters and caps though. Anfo meh pretty much the same. Old school dynamite is pretty dangerous if you're not careful. Can't remember but think they stopped making it in the 80s. Yes it can be set off by a sharp impact if the nitroglycerin has sweatted out of it. That's what makes it so dangerous. Know some guys that had some good stumpin stories from back in the day.


----------



## GrassGuerilla (Dec 11, 2013)

Late to the party, but... Careful with those explosives. It isn't what you know that will get you. It's more a matter of what you don't know. Improper handling, storage etc. has left more than a few "get r done" types maimed or dead. Through the grace of god I'm alive today. We did some foolish things with modifying fireworks in my youth. I wised up when I saw how much energy was in a handful of sparklers. Not telling anyone to, or not to. Just wanted to point out, it's what you don't know that'll get ya.

To the OP, glad to hear it went ok.


----------



## 056 kid (Dec 11, 2013)

I worked with an old hook tender who would tell stories about how he used dynamite to make holes for chokers in big timber.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 11, 2013)

056 kid said:


> I worked with an old hook tender who would tell stories about how he used dynamite to make holes for chokers in big timber.



I've seen that happen. It worked pretty good if you were careful not to use too much. I've also seen dynamite use to split logs that were too big to skid out of where they laid. That could get a little messy and it wasn't used unless it was really necessary.
My first exposure to explosives was blowing stumps on ROW. It was always one of my favorite parts of the job.


----------

