# Put the Top Down, Went for a Ride



## Fireaxman (Aug 11, 2006)

Anybody got some good advice on topping leaners?

Topped a Loblolly at about 70 feet this week. The tree had a "Recurve" in it that put me on the high side of a 10 degree lean when I made the cut. When the top came off the lost weight plus the normal kickback from the top threw me up and out enough to kick my spurs out. I was expecting a ride, but got a little more than I expected.

I was carefully lanyarded in and also tied in to an adjustable false crotch below the lanyard (Thanks Tom); saw was shut down when the top started over, so no damage done; but its pretty embarassing to be kicked out of the tree like that. Tree was only about 6" diameter where I made the cut, so not enough diameter to bore in and leave a trip on the back side. Front cut was slightly more open than conventional and about a third of the way through.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 11, 2006)

So did you end up dangling by the saddle or what? Sounds like quite a scare!


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## Ekka (Aug 12, 2006)

Pines can be a whippy bugger.

Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.

Was the top lowered or just belted out?

Was there a pull rope on it?

Also, as it was on a lean it most likely started to go early and you may not have come up and made a thin hinge leaving more wood to be broken. Sometimes you gotta have a fast saw and keep cutting up to that hinge thickness.


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## coydog (Aug 12, 2006)

I suspect the open face increased the kickback, as it allows the top to be attached longer therefore it transmits maximum push and pull on the stem as it falls, add to that the fact that it was a leaner, so when the top broke free it was already FULLY commited to its downward fall pulling the spar and you along with it and then snapping back like a spring. pines are also very fibrous and the holding wood will bend and stay attached until forced to break. a narrower face will cause the top to break earlier in its swing and "jump" forward off the spar as well as giving you a gentler ride. Was the top pointed at the ground when it fell? How did it land on the ground? experimenting with your facecuts will allow you to not only avoid a bad ride but control where and how the top hits the ground.


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## coydog (Aug 12, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.


wouldn't that depend?


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## Fireaxman (Aug 12, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Pines can be a whippy bugger.
> 
> Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.
> 
> ...




Belted out, not lowered. No pull rope, just let it fall. Ooops! Cut slow, thinking about getting the 200t shut down and holding on when it started over. Yep. Started over early, broke a pretty beefy hinge for such small wood.

70 degree notch? That's what I'm confused on. Wide open? And how deep?


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## Fireaxman (Aug 12, 2006)

coydog said:


> I suspect the open face increased the kickback, as it allows the top to be attached longer therefore it transmits maximum push and pull on the stem as it falls, add to that the fact that it was a leaner, so when the top broke free it was already FULLY commited to its downward fall pulling the spar and you along with it and then snapping back like a spring. pines are also very fibrous and the holding wood will bend and stay attached until forced to break. a narrower face will cause the top to break earlier in its swing and "jump" forward off the spar as well as giving you a gentler ride. Was the top pointed at the ground when it fell? How did it land on the ground? experimenting with your facecuts will allow you to not only avoid a bad ride but control where and how the top hits the ground.



I think the top was slightly before 90 degrees when it broke free. No clue how it hit the ground, buddy I was just trying to hold on. I'm looking forward to further "experimenting" with facecuts, but I would sincerely like to get a little benefit from someone with more experience before my next experiment.

The facecut seems critical. Ekka's 70 degree suggestion sounds more "Open". Sounded like Clearance was suggesting more "Closed" in a post about a month ago, and sounds like coydog suggests more "Closed". Absolutely no doubt about any of your experience or qualifications, just trying to clear up my understanding. Please, tell me more.

Leaner. More Open or more Closed than the 45 degree "Conventional"? Deeper, or more shallow than the "Conventional" 1/3?
How about a Humbolt? I think it might be easier to cut, but does it risk a butt down slide off the spar that could catch me with some laterals?


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## Fireaxman (Aug 12, 2006)

DeanBrown3D said:


> So did you end up dangling by the saddle or what? Sounds like quite a scare!


Well, yes, hanging by the saddle. ... but it is a very good saddle, and it had me by both the side D's (lanyard) and the sliding D's (false crotch and DdRT). Safe saw was my biggest worry. Kind of fun actually, nice thrill. But I sure would like to know more about it. Like thrills. Just dont like surprises.


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## Treeman67 (Aug 12, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> Anybody got some good advice on topping leaners?
> 
> Topped a Loblolly at about 70 feet this week. The tree had a "Recurve" in it that put me on the high side of a 10 degree lean when I made the cut. When the top came off the lost weight plus the normal kickback from the top threw me up and out enough to kick my spurs out. I was expecting a ride, but got a little more than I expected.
> 
> I was carefully lanyarded in and also tied in to an adjustable false crotch below the lanyard (Thanks Tom); saw was shut down when the top started over, so no damage done; but its pretty embarassing to be kicked out of the tree like that. Tree was only about 6" diameter where I made the cut, so not enough diameter to bore in and leave a trip on the back side. Front cut was slightly more open than conventional and about a third of the way through.


 hell ya, you going to have free ride if you topped 70 feet topped,especially if it leaner too.. you needed have boom truck to do the job for you if it accessable. 6" diameter?? that nerves whacking..lol

Treeman67


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## Fireaxman (Aug 12, 2006)

Do not have a boom truck. Cannot afford a boom truck. Trying to head off an IPS beetle infestation on 12 acres of loblollies (part of my retirement savings). Next tree in line has a similar lean and two closed pitch tubes visible from the ground (probably Black Turpintine Beetles, IPS usually start at the top. Top looks clean.)

If the advice is "Get used to it"; I'll get used to it. But if you can give me some advice on how to mitigate the problem, please do.


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## clearance (Aug 12, 2006)

I top every tree I climb now, have topped and then removed more trees than I can remember, so I feel qualified to talk about this. I have cut off 40' tops from leaners before and the only time I ever went for a ride was then my coworkers yarded on the rope I had in hemlock top like they were pulling a ------ off thier old ladies just for a laugh. I cut leaners tops off just like how I fall leaner trees on the ground. Basically I want to remove as much wood as I can myself, I don't want the tree to break lots of holding wood, that loads it up. I make the undercut depending on how I want the top to land, flat=shallow. I cut sidewood out of the backcut, kind of like making a triangle with the holding wood as the base, if you where looking down on it. After that I cut into the backcut , revving my deadly sharp, full saw up first and not stopping as it moves. Humbolds mean it will not ever come back, sliding off the stump that is. On a tree that small I would wrap my lanyard as well, that really stabilizes you, and of course, stick your spurs in good. Slow is bad, dull saws are bad, empty saws are terrible. If it ever starts to chair, keep cutting, in any case always stand to one side of where it could chair. Hope this helps.


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## Ekka (Aug 12, 2006)

Fireaxman

Tis true to what many say, Clearance also noted that fast and up to that hinge. 

Yes angles of notches depending on ht determine how the head lands.

However, remember one absolutely critical fact. when the head is over at 45 degrees to the ground it is exerting MAXIMUM rearward push against the trunk. If this is also the point where the face closes and the hingewood has to break then you have just amplified the ride.

Having a wider notch will allow the head more momentum to break the hingwood, more time for you to keep cutting, and the spar (trunk) will progress toward a forward movement straightening up from that head pushing it back. The weight of the head is now downward not horizontal.

Have a look at 2 videos I'm about to post.

It's a guy taking a huge head out of a pine and gets chucked bad, worth a look. But in the video it was roped down.

I'll call it Bad Ride on Pine Topping


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## arboralliance (Aug 12, 2006)

*Try this Fireaxeman...*

Fireaxman, try tying out a rope below your feet and back to another tree, get your groundy to slight pre-tension this rope to another tree on the ground or an solid object with a truckies hitch so the top you're in will stay tensioned when you scarf it out via the pre-tension in the rope tied out below your feet preventing all or most whip/ride...:sword:

You tie it back away from the direction you are felling. I know this is stating the obvious sorry but would hate to see you scarf out the head on this rope or side tie it to no effect...

Be very warry of any boring insect damage in the base also, this sounds suspect and very dangerous...

I am also assuming you had a pull rope on that head in case of wind change etc, etc?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 12, 2006)

The bracing works well; but part of the force incurred is a rearward push into bracing line; slackening it's support.

Personally, i try to set up my face, then remove more wood to set my back cut up so the saw can come flying thru with less fiber to cut. This is so i can try to cut thru hinge as top is throwing away from me at an angle; before so much push/pull forces are placed on spar.

To me it is a timing thing; kinda dancing with the feel of forces; as it wants to throw away from me; letting it fly across and away. Sometime before it starts pushing back into spar i'm on, before it starts pulling me forward on spar, and before slamming closed. 

i've seen a lot of guys 'cowboy' it and try to amplify and exaggerate the forces; to play tough guy; so did opposite. Also, after release; i'd notice how they would like try to keep the 'pony' bucking wild by placing body timing as neutral or even throwing weight with motion. So, i'd throw body opposite direction spar was moving (but still were i could hang on good); to use weight and it's impact to counter/ snub out the spar forces.

A lot of this is timing and feel; and counter intuitive to normal safety and operating practices. i'd usually say never cut thru hinge, let it work to buffer force, and be anti-kickback/slideback of butt end. But, that always places the forces of the moving top into the stump/spar; just in felling the release forces, have a leveraged distance to amplify through from backcut to ground, that they don't have in felling. So, just as it is committed to throwing itself away from me in topping; i release it cleanly, so hinge and face don't fight it. And try to get some kind of 'ninja'/ clean release; using forces to stand on my side, rather than against me.

But all ways tie in twice, and be prepared for anything!

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that.


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## Mike Cantolina (Aug 12, 2006)

There's some good comments above. If you want to be sure of little to no ride then yes make your notch deeper. 45 or greater with a deep notch. After starting your back cut (once you know the top is going the right direction and well away from you) cut the hinge clear off. It's important to make sure there are no obstacles for thet op to brush on the way over before you do this

Your notch closing with the hing still attached is what pulls the spar forward. (Actually on a small top the notch doesn't have to close, just the resistance of the hinge will pull spar over. In this case, cutting faster is important.)

The angle the top is at when you release the hinge determines how the top lands.




Mike


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## woodchux (Aug 12, 2006)

In my experience , I get the least bucking by cutting a wide 70* very shallow notch maybe 1/5 to 1/4


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## rebelman (Aug 12, 2006)

I do lot's of loblollies. Each situation is different of course, and you're getting great advice and discussion. For me the humbolt works most times to lessen the ride. Fifty to seventy degree. Now that is strictly for controlling the ride, how the top hits and what it hits are other consideratoins.


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## arboralliance (Aug 12, 2006)

*Spearing the head...*

Could be an option if only smaller diameter like you mentioned to spear the head down after allowing it to pivot at least 5 degree or so forward onto the hinge then follow through having made a very wide face cut , in the line of the bottom cut of the face and in turn spearing the head down but takes a lot of practice and can be deadly if not done right but certainly an option for confined space whippy heads n poles, more rigging can be used to hold it just above the ground once it heads south...Have done thousands like this as a utlity climber in close proximity not to mention other areas...Practice spear cutting branches and small saplings...


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## clearance (Aug 12, 2006)

Why go for a ride, read my earlier post. Spear cutting, we call it fast cutting, I like it, takes a bit of practice to get right.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 13, 2006)

arboralliance said:


> ... Be very warry of any boring insect damage in the base also, this sounds suspect and very dangerous...



The IPS, Pine Bark, and Black Turpentine Beetles are cambium destroying insects only. They do not enter the sapwood. As long as I get on them quick, while the bark is still tight and before the sawyer beetles get started, the wood is strong and safe.




arboralliance said:


> I am also assuming you had a pull rope on that head in case of wind change etc, etc?



I did not have a pull rope on this one, only because it had so much lean it was fully committed before I ever started a saw. And I WISH I had a breeze, in this 95 degree heat and 95% relative hunidity. But thanks for the caution; on every other top I have ever done I used the pull rope. 

Only once did I let a groundie pull on it TOO hard, TOO soon, that lesson was pretty obvious. Yes, this is the second time I have been kicked out of the tree.

The tie back suggestions sounds excellent. Can do. In fact, I can get a pretty serious bind on it with the Griphoist, enough that any kickbak from the top (as Spidey warned me) would be insignificant. Any danger of too much pull? That would also streighten up the spar for me, and give my spurs a better grip, and bring the COG of the top back to a less drastic overbalence. 

I'm sure gonna do the "Triangle Cut", Clearance. Excellent suggestion.

Special thanks for the film, Ekka; thankfully my ride was not That Bad. Makes me feel a little less ignorant though, and not so much like the Lone Ranger.

I'm with you on small tops, TreeCo. Until I get the hang of this I'm not taking off anything I can't fight off. Seems like I saw that advice in a previous post somewhere. Might have been one of yours. Ekka's film is a good (and very timely) reminder of how much can go wrong.

Much, Much Thanks, Men. Pretty clear where I made my major mistakes. I'm determined to get this right. By sharing your knowledge you save me many bruises and probably worse.


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## clearance (Aug 13, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Clearance how large a diameter will you spear cut?
> 
> I said I do up to 3" but 4" may be more like it. Not much larger for me though.


It depends, I was taught to spear/fast cut stuff under 6" by bending my arm and cutting where the undercut would be first then walking the saw back to the topside, cutting wide open the whole time, quickly. A little while back I fast cut a big cedar marm, like about 15" by 40', because the top of tree was dead and I knew it would hang up and get caught with the undercut/backcut method. I cut the bottom and then matched the cut from the top, it worked awesome but my boss was not impressed at all. It is not an approved method, probably frowned on by some, no doubt.


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## Ekka (Aug 13, 2006)

It's just deadly when the cut piece has to fly past you and your head, look out for branches 

Nothing beats a really fast saw and sharp chain, keep them revs up.

But I must admit I have been caught too where the piece starts to fold over and you just cant get thru that bloody cut fast enough ... usually your harder timbers not the soft stuff like pine.

Clearance, sounded like an impressive slice that one the boss didn't like ... didn't hit ya did it?


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## clearance (Aug 13, 2006)

No Ekka, it was a big tree like 5' where I was. I made the last cut with one hand, stretched out, hiding my body. When I fast cut tops that are straight up and down, its with one hand of course and I often give the top a shove as soon as it breaks free. If you have stripped the tree you can hold the top for half a second and push/ throw it down as well. When I was being taught this method I screwed up and let a birch top hit the primary, good thing it was new line and single phase, it pushed the line down and got flung off. My foreman was standing on the road watching, he gave me the thumbs up and laughed. I dont advise it for harsh leaners, unless you have a bigger saw with a short bar, the 020/200 just can't cut fast enough.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

clearance said:


> It depends, I was taught to spear/fast cut stuff under 6" by bending my arm and cutting where the undercut would be first then walking the saw back to the topside, cutting wide open the whole time, quickly. A little while back I fast cut a big cedar marm, like about 15" by 40', because the top of tree was dead and I knew it would hang up and get caught with the undercut/backcut method. I cut the bottom and then matched the cut from the top, it worked awesome but my boss was not impressed at all. It is not an approved method, probably frowned on by some, no doubt.


I like leaners. They're a unique challenge. The first challenge is to be able to accurately predict what the top is going to do, and how the part you're on is going to react and how it's going to move (this is before you start up a saw). Every tree is different, so you almost have to extrapolate from knowlege you've gotten from previous experiences. Like a pro billiards player predicting how hard, at what angle with how much back, side or top spin to get the exact result you predict. It's all in your head at that point.

Then you start up a saw and you sink the 8 ball in the side pocket.

I tend to do spear cuts a lot. It sends leaners down vertically, spearing them into the ground. There is a risk with this, and we've covered this type of cut, it's advantages and inherent risks associated with it. If you understand the risks, and know how to prevent them, you enjoy just the advantages. Do a search and type in 'spear'.

A spear cut's main advantage in dealing with a leaning top is that it minimizes the motion that can be generated on the part you are tied into. Avoiding being sling-shotted backwards is always the goal, though landing the limb in a super-tight spot might be part of the purpose. Not having the top come back and whack you on the melon on its way down is essential and that is the only real potential hazard I can see in using this specialized cut. Here's how it's done:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

The bottom-up cut is done first. Depending on the lean and the amount of weight hanging out there will determine how far up you can com with that cut. There is a high propensity to have the saw get pinched on this bottom-up cut. Get the saw out before the tippytop of the tree starts moving, then, as clearance states, _then walking the saw back to the topside _, this gives you a straight line as a guide for your next cut. You will do this next cut, from the top coming down and have for it to meet exactly with the other cut-- no under-cut or over-cut. No holding wood. When the top cut meets the bottom cut the top will seperate and drop pretty much at the angle it is leaning at. Since the freshly cut butt end is heavier and wind resistance generally greater toward the end of the limb (more 'drag'), the limb will usually straighten up on its way down, traveling downward and becoming more vertical as it goes down.


It took me about 400 times longer to describe this to you in writing and pictures than it would take to actually do it. It's a fast cut and limbs cut this way tend to not get hung up in the tree you're in, or in closeby trees. Or wires as Clearance describes. And just as importantly, you minimize getting bucked and possibly beaten by the tree.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

Sometimes you may want the top to fall away more than what just the bottom-up kerf cut would give you, as if there's not too much of a lean to begin with. To do this, just open the bottom-up cut ever so slightly. It's technically a humboldt at this point, but your angles are at the extreme end of what a 'normal' Humboldt cut would look like.





I will normally wail through from top to bottom, just sizzle downward straight through in a single cut to acheive the same response. Razor sharp chain and a powerful saw are prerequisites to taking this shortcut. If your saw ain't fast enough, the top will hinge and tip toward horizontal until you finally cut fully through. At that point you've lost the vertical drop you're seeking and the tip-top can collide with whatever's adjacent. Be careful.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 13, 2006)

I have used spear cuts with great success to remove blowdowns that hung up in neighboring trees, only cutting top first instead of bottom of course since top is compression side on hung up blowdown. I do not know why it did not occur to me to use it on a leaning top. Thanks. Excellent suggestion.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

I'm not suggesting anybody do this. You can get yourself in trouble.

It IS helpful to understand the technique, though. In certain situations it really IS the safest, swiftest approach.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 13, 2006)

Now yer startin to sound like a lawyer for Stihl, writing the instructions manual for the 200T. Gotta get those disclaimers in I guess.

I can get myself in trouble driving to Walmart.

Risk vs Benefit analysis I guess. I'll practice first on down tops and saplings, as "Arboralliance" suggested.

Thanks for the advice. Fear no evil (lawsuit). I am responsible for my own actions.


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## Climb020 (Aug 13, 2006)

I agreed with Mike here. I have done this a few times and worked great. I could feel the top starting to pull the tree. So once the top was commited I finished her off and watched it fly. Just watch when you cut through the hinge. If you do it too soon thoigh it could cause the top to spear down and you might end up getting hit with some of the branches.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 13, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> Gotta get those disclaimers in I guess.


 I _seriously_ do not want men getting hurt doing this. If I put a disclaimer on it and state that there are INHERENT DANGERS in using the method someone might ask What ARE those dangers? Climb020 points out that you can get swakked by limbs on the way down. I would add to this, that supposing the spear, right upon seperation, dropped vertically as intended, but the newly cut point of that top gets wedged down between the tree and your flipline and life line. Eeek.

Anyone care to describe what THAT might look like? When boppin a top, you are tied into that which you are cutting. Be aware. Be very aware.


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## arboralliance (Aug 13, 2006)

*Spearing...*

I spear cut a "humbolt" scarf when the timber is getting bigger to allow for the top to move away first then finish cutting through causing the head etc to spear to ground clear of me...


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## Fireaxman (Aug 13, 2006)

arboralliance said:


> I spear cut a "humbolt" scarf when the timber is getting bigger to allow for the top to move away first then finish cutting through causing the head etc to spear to ground clear of me...



I understand you more clearly this time. I confess I did not fully understand your 7:37 08/12 (Louisiana time) description. I can do this. I think this is the same thing Tree Machine talked about in his 04:08 A.M. posting 08/13. Makes a lot of sense.

And, remember I am just talking about leaners. If I have brush over my head or if there is insufficient angle for the "spear" to clear my tie in point without catching my flipline, I dont think I will be tempted to try it without the humbolt. Rather be tossed around a bit than caught in or by the top


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## woodchux (Aug 14, 2006)

Here is a short vid that I shot of a young climber who spear cut a large limb, and got slapped in the face pretty good. No helmet or PPE. You don't actually see the limb hit him , but you can tell what happened.

http://media.putfile.com/face-slap


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## arboralliance (Aug 14, 2006)

*Clearly poor management...*



woodchux said:


> Here is a short vid that I shot of a young climber who spear cut a large limb, and got slapped in the face pretty good. No helmet or PPE. You don't actually see the limb hit him , but you can tell what happened.
> 
> http://media.putfile.com/face-slap




The "Boss" of this "young climber" should have known better to fell the limb towards the camera man as there was plenty of room in that direction or even the opposite direction or climb higher and dismantle or allow the limb to fall further away before finishing the spear cut and blantantly obviously only after practising this techique on the ground and under close supervision...

Not a huge tree, not a difficult fell, a tag line or pull rope on it and it would have been sweet, plenty of high points in that tree to tie into, the "young climber" is barely half way into the tree...


Apart from the fact that the "Boss" should have provided PPE and insisted that the "young climber" wear it at all times...

Assuming woodchux that you were just driving past and happened to capture all this on film...


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## woodchux (Aug 14, 2006)

The young climber was the boss back when i shot that film. He tended to mess up the first cut on every job.


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## arboralliance (Aug 14, 2006)

*Thank you...*



woodchux said:


> The young climber was the boss back when i shot that film. He tended to mess up the first cut on every job.



woodchux thanks for the clarification and for the great video, I too have sub-contracted to many, many "Arborists" over the years and have some amazing stories...

Hope you are learned now from all your experiences with this guy you videoed and any other "Bosses" you have been entertained by...

Can anyone else comment on the video and techniques for reducing whip in removing heads/ends form long stems?


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## treeseer (Aug 14, 2006)

*From the left field bleachers*



arboralliance said:


> Can anyone else comment on techniques for reducing whip in removing heads/ends form long stems?


Yeah, sure.

leave the chain saw on the ground, and put a polesaw on the dogleash. Climb up to where you want to be, double-tie in. Use polesaw to reduce end as much as possible. Loblolly branches snap off easy so this goes fast. 

Reclip polesaw, unsheath sugoi. Spin to side of cut, make notch, start back cut. Spin yourself behind the cut, saw until it's ready to go. Sheath sugoi, brace knees against stem, then push top over sloooooooooooooooowly.
Much Less thrilling, but much less jerking around.

I can't see using a chainsaw for anything under 10" on pine. Why deal with the weight and the risk, not to mention the noise and fumes? But that's just me; I may be in the minority here...:taped:  umpkin2:


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## Ekka (Aug 15, 2006)

Oh please. Guy.

I'm nicknaming you Elmer Fudd. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeseer (Aug 15, 2006)

"Oh please. Guy. I'm nicknaming you Elmer Fudd"

Nahh, that ain't me. Elmer was always after that wascally wabbit with that big blunderbuss of a shotgun. I'd use a blowgun on his cottontail.

"You should see the size of his arms from all of that handsawing."

Hey, Popeye got Olive Oyl. These hams are worth a lot.

Buit seriously Fireax, a chainsaw on 6" pine? Even 8"? Talk about lack of control. Do you shoot mosquitoes with a cannon, too?


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## beowulf343 (Aug 15, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Hey, Popeye got Olive Oyl. These hams are worth a lot.


I wouldn't say Olive Oil was a great catch-i've seen guys with bigger boobs!:biggrinbounce2:


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## treeseer (Aug 15, 2006)

Polesaw advantage # 384:

By selectively pruning the branches above, you not only lighten the load, you change the lean.

Chainsaw disadvantage # 965:

A pox on pollution 
From the 2-cycle "solution".


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## clearance (Aug 15, 2006)

Polesaws just don't cut fast enough, on leaners you want to remove as much holding wood as you can before it loads up, breaks off and sends you for a ride. I can cut dimensional lumber with a handsaw, I'm not bad at it at all, but I generaly use an electric circular saw. The old saying "why have a dog and bark yourself" comes to mind.


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## arboralliance (Aug 15, 2006)

*Re-entering the mallee...*

I concur clearance, at 6" dia as stated by the originator I could (in Australian tall timber forest or such) still be cutting out 20 or 30'+ of head or more and none of my pole saws would reach the limbs above or wieght reduce enough if they could reach to reduce the wind sail area enough to count if a whip was cracking around about so speed for me is paramount once the lean is committed and for that I praise the mighty little saws we have these days mind you with the mention of popeye arms I would add I had all my saws stolen many years ago with only my 088 left so spent the week waiting for replacements using said 088 with 26"er on and boy did I have arms end of that week...:jawdrop:


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## Tree Machine (Aug 15, 2006)

We're supposed to have arms my Aussie brother. It's sort of expected of us.

I, too, vote for more horsepower while aloft. I think climbing with a 394 is something of a joy. It means I'm earning my living. But that's not what we're talking about here, though. Leaners. Back to leaners.

A power-ported 346XP, this is really not a difficult saw to climb with. The key is in having a good, stong bungee lanyard.


Bigger power bigger abilities. Quicker V-notches, which if you're directionally felling limbage you do a lot of V's. Knock out the V wedge with authority, no matter what size, back cut sure and with total control, the bigger power lets you run the saw through at lower RPM's, so if you have the need to full-throttle it, you are assured that you can plow through wood at the speed _you choose._


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## treeseer (Aug 16, 2006)

"Polesaws just don't cut fast enough,

with practice, they are faster, and safer.

"none of my pole saws would reach

get a telescoping polesaw then

"Bigger power bigger abilities.

Bigger risk too, bigger boat anchor to drag up. TM, has that blonde whipped you into cert shape yet?

I'll leave you guys alone now. :bang: I can tell that you're all motorheads, addicted to Power, even when it takes more power to use it than you gain from using it.

Do you have a Tim Taylor poster in your shop?


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## clearance (Aug 16, 2006)

Thats right, the big boys play with big toys, when you want to take off the training wheels, let us know.


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## beowulf343 (Aug 16, 2006)

Well, the polesaw discussion does help differentiate between those who primarily trim, and those who do the serious cutting on removals. I wonder how long it would take to cut through a 3 foot diameter silver maple lead with a polesaw? FIRE UP THE 394!!!


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## Fireaxman (Aug 16, 2006)

treeseer
Buit seriously Fireax said:


> Aint got a cannon, but if I had one I probably would want to shoot it at something. I confess I have been known to break out the .22 rat shot on carpenter bees.
> 
> Thanks for the advice, though. Do have a tendency toward overkill I have to be aware of. Hit a cottonmouth water moccasin with .44 mag rat shot once at a range of 2 feet. A piece of the head landed on my shoulder.
> 
> Got a Sugoi, like it, use it a lot. But I usually have the 200T with me by the time I get to the top on a removal.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 17, 2006)

I would be interested to know the weight difference between a 346 and say a 200t. I used to climb with top-handles. Now I don't. Mebbe some day again I will, but the precision and control and speed I get with that power, Mmmmm.

'Course, we're talking about takedown issues here. As far as 6" pine, normally that's a silky thing, but if you're doing a spear cut, that's a longer cut, diagonal to the plane of the grain. Makes it a tough silky cut, especially the cut coming up from the underside. 346, though, it takes on all limbing with such authority. I don't do slow very well so I'll accept some extra weight. With that comes a LOT more cutting on a single tank and with .058 chain, a chain popping off is a RARE, mebbe twice a month occurance. Also, you tend to use BOTH hands on a rear-handle saw. These things are benefits that outweight the cost, at least for me. At the very least it's something to look at.


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## Fireaxman (Aug 18, 2006)

arboralliance said:


> I concur clearance, at 6" dia as stated by the originator I could (in Australian tall timber forest or such) still be cutting out 20 or 30'+ of head or more ...



Yessir. Spindly rascal, that's what hurt. Actually, it wasn't much bigger than 6" where I spurred in. I quit climbing because my weight was complicating the already existing sweep, and I still had 25 feet of top.

I do have 14 feet of pole saw and a marvin head. I could have lightened the top some, and I still like the idea of tieing back against the lean.


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## trevmcrev (Aug 18, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> A power-ported 346XP, this is really not a difficult saw to climb with. The key is in having a good, stong bungee lanyard.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hey TM, being a Stihl man i'm trying to picture the size saw your climbing with. What would be the stihl equivalent?
> ...


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## rmihalek (Aug 18, 2006)

Probably the closest would be the Stihl 260.


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## Tree Machine (Aug 18, 2006)

46 cc.


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## arboralliance (Aug 19, 2006)

*Lost me treeseer please enlighten...*



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by arboralliance
> Can anyone else comment on techniques for reducing whip in removing heads/ends form long stems?





> Originally Posted by treeseer
> "From the left field bleachers"
> 
> Yeah, sure.
> ...





treeseer said:


> "Polesaws just don't cut fast enough,
> 
> with practice, they are faster, and safer.
> 
> ...





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by arboralliance
> I concur clearance, at 6" dia as stated by the originator I could (in Australian tall timber forest or such) still be cutting out 20 or 30'+ of head or more ...





> Yessir. Spindly rascal, that's what hurt. Actually, it wasn't much bigger than 6" where I spurred in. I quit climbing because my weight was complicating the already existing sweep, and I still had 25 feet of top.
> 
> I do have 14 feet of pole saw and a marvin head. I could have lightened the top some, and I still like the idea of tieing back against the lean.



treeseer lost me with that one, surely he is not seriously recommending to cut above ones head, surely?

treeseer, can you enlighten me as to what it is you are suggesting here?

Where would I find this suggestion you are making written in ISA writings/teachings?

Really lost me there treeseer from a safety perspective please fill in the blanks?

Anyone?

(I am gravely concerned that people are taking this advice as scripture...)


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## Fireaxman (Aug 19, 2006)

arboralliance said:


> (I am gravely concerned that people are taking this advice as scripture...)



Arbor, I really dont think there is any "Scripture" on what is the best way to handle the unique problems each individual tree can present. Hence, the most excellent value of getting advice from so many experienced people here on Arboristsite. Hearing suggestions from your many different backgrounds gives me more options in how to handle the very unique situations I find in my daily work. No two trees are identical. Each has its hazards. The more options I have in avoiding or dealing with those hazards the better prepared I feel.

You, Clearance, Ekka, and others have given me some very excellent advice on this which I definetly will take, and for which I am very grateful. Treeseer has also given me some very good advice, here and in other threads. Too often people seem to think "Either my way OR his way". I try to never forget the magic of the word "and". There certainly will be many opportunities to use your advice, Clearance' advice, AND Treeseer's advice, and on and on.

I used the Sugoi cleaning up Katrina busted limbs in a very nice white oak yesterday, and frankly, taking some of Treeseer's advice, I was surprised that it handled some of the larger limbs very satisfactorily. But I'm not giving up the 200t.

I have another very whippy loblolly, with even more lean on it, in a backyard in Tchefuncte, in the path of the IPS infestation. I can drop this one without climbing, but it is not hard to see where, if it was leaning directly over the house (and I know of some like I describe in Country Club Estates), I might be able to and might want to piece it down limb by very small limb with the marvin head. Since it is so small at the top, it could be pieced down with a pole saw and (if necessary) lowered with throw line. Since it is such a dramatic leaner, none of the branches would be over my head.

Your warning is well taken. Just putting some numbers on it for analogy, I expect maybe 10 or 15% of a project is getting good advice. The other 85 or 90% may well be in having enough good sense to know where and when to use that advice. That is entirely my responsibility.


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## treeseer (Aug 19, 2006)

"treeseer lost me with that one, surely he is not seriously recommending to cut above ones head, surely?
treeseer, can you enlighten me as to what it is you are suggesting here?
Really lost me there treeseer from a safety perspective please fill in the blanks?"

Using a polesaw above one's head is a lot easier that using a polesaw below one's head, aa. fyi, a polesaw does not have a motor and yes it can be used anywhere, quite safely. I'm not aware of a publication that describes this; it's really too simple to need more explanation. Using a chainsaw on a 6" pine is not safer than using a handsaw. 

A polesaw is a big, long toy for boys who are willing to work on trees without burning gasoline. As Fireax noted with his Sugoi use, it can be very efficient. It's even easier to learn than climbing without spikes!


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## boo (Aug 19, 2006)

after climbing a monster removal with a 3120xp @ 36", one would look at every chance to use hand saws and pole saws.... then again, it would make a 346 seem like a break.
limb to limb as tree to tree as saw to saw.
size matters.


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