# can someone help me?



## tom john (Nov 30, 2006)

Hello all I am new to this buisness and I know my limits on what not to take on,I have cut trees for about 10 years but from the ground and I purchased a double d saddle buckingham gaffs and a wire core flip line and I am extremely wanting to learn to climb and top trees.and I watched all the videos on the site and it is something that I want to learn,I have been soaking up as much info as possible before I get into it,I have tried to climb and went fairley well but I don't know anything about the rope climbing or the knots used to do this.but after watching the videos it looks to me that this is something that I need to learn,are there any videos online that explains and shows you how to tie and use this system,because I know safety is first and formost,and I would like to get started right not wrong.


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## OTG BOSTON (Nov 30, 2006)

*yellow pages*

you could start by looking to local tree companies and seeing if you could work for them for a while. Untill you learn the "ropes"(I know bad pun, shoot me now)


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## Jumper (Nov 30, 2006)

Man I'll say it AGAIN. Buy a copy of the "Tree Climbers' Companion", buy yourself a rope and get hired by a respectable arborist, not some hack that spikes all. "Topping" trees is tres passe, and you are not likely to get much support here if that is your aim in life. As for knots do a search for knots on this site, or google.....try tree climbing knots

eg http://www.wtsherrill.com/treetips/treetips.asp?idAtype=rec


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## beaverb01 (Nov 30, 2006)

*Tree Climbers Companion*



tom john said:


> Hello all I am new to this buisness and I know my limits on what not to take on,I have cut trees for about 10 years but from the ground and I purchased a double d saddle buckingham gaffs and a wire core flip line and I am extremely wanting to learn to climb and top trees.and I watched all the videos on the site and it is something that I want to learn,I have been soaking up as much info as possible before I get into it,I have tried to climb and went fairley well but I don't know anything about the rope climbing or the knots used to do this.but after watching the videos it looks to me that this is something that I need to learn,are there any videos online that explains and shows you how to tie and use this system,because I know safety is first and formost,and I would like to get started right not wrong.



Can't go wrong getting this book, it will shed light on different techniques and knots. LOW AND SLOW are words to live by when starting out. I always double-tied (2 tie-in points)when first getting started, makes taking a break much easier.


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## (WLL) (Dec 4, 2006)

*topping hurts*

try 2 avoid topping trees


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## osb_mail (Dec 8, 2006)

*I am also new ???*



(WLL) said:


> try 2 avoid topping trees


I am also new but I have almost ten years of nursery an landscape pruning . I have study tree biology. It is kind funny but I am probably one of worst climbers around town but my work looks the best .It is amazing that i still have to talk people out of topping . I would don t really know except removal but when you top you make 3 things 1 is more dangerous job 2 is uglier 3 is a more dangerous tree in the future .Another thing leave them spikes at the bottom of your gear basket.


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## ozy365 (Dec 8, 2006)

animatedknots.com is a great place to learn knots


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## JohN Dee (Dec 9, 2006)

Buy a copy of the tree climbers companion read that then go down to your local park and *Trunk Walk* the trees down there... This is a very good technique to learn as it is one of the building blocks on how to climb trees.

Remember, Keep the spikes for the removals only STRICT, don't use them on prunes. Topping tree's is a NO NO aswell so try to aboid that. 

Low n Slow is what you need to do, remember safety first - Good Technique and Speed will shortly follow.


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## clearance (Dec 9, 2006)

JohN Dee said:


> Remember, Keep the spikes for the removals only STRICT, don't use them on prunes. Topping tree's is a NO NO aswell so try to aboid that.


Who died and made you God? T.J. -climbing with spurs is the safest way, no doubt, spurs and a steelcore. Firmly attached to the tree at all times, not tied into something you can't see if its good or not, planted, not slipping and cutting yourself. Certianly tell people that is not good to top trees but if thats what they really want-do it. Learn the bowline, tautline and figure 8, its all you need to get started, save the fancy pants stuff for later, good luck to you.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 9, 2006)

Does Sherrill the site sponsor sell videos?

I know that Tree Tools near Portland, Oregon had a set on their shelves. They ship too.


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## jmack (Dec 9, 2006)

(WLL) said:


> try 2 avoid topping trees


ditto and thankyou wll


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## jmack (Dec 9, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Does Sherrill the site sponsor sell videos?
> 
> I know that Tree Tools near Portland, Oregon had a set on their shelves. They ship too.


tons of vendors have videos or you can buy them from the orgs. i gotta few of them whatcha have in mind md?


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## osb_mail (Dec 9, 2006)

*climbing with spurs the safest ???*

It might be if it is the most comfortable for you but I don t think it is th way you want to learn .I know spur climbing is not the safest me because I am not comfortable doing it .I guess if the customer want there trees topped you can do it but you will never see me doing this .


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## Magnum783 (Dec 11, 2006)

Come out to NC I will show you what I know
Jared


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## treeseer (Dec 11, 2006)

Magnum783 said:


> Come out to NC I will show you what I know
> Jared


HI Jared! I'm an hour away from you; write me sometime.

"climbing with spurs is the safest way, no doubt, spurs and a steelcore. Firmly attached to the tree at all times, not tied into something you can't see if its good or not, planted, not slipping and cutting yourself. Certianly tell people that is not good to top trees but if thats what they really want-do it. Learn the bowline, tautline and figure 8, its all you need to get started, save the fancy pants stuff for later, good luck to you."

Clearance, I agree with you that tautline hitch and bowline are all the knots that are needed, but please note that this poster is from Kentucky, not the BC bush. You've been banned from the homeowner forum for this kind of spiking-topping  --keep it up and you may be out of this place too.

Re how-to stuff, shop here:
https://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/


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## clearance (Dec 11, 2006)

treeseer said:


> "climbing with spurs is the safest way, no doubt, spurs and a steelcore. Firmly attached to the tree at all times, not tied into something you can't see if its good or not, planted, not slipping and cutting yourself. Certianly tell people that is not good to top trees but if thats what they really want-do it. Learn the bowline, tautline and figure 8, its all you need to get started, save the fancy pants stuff for later, good luck to you."
> 
> Clearance, I agree with you that tautline hitch and bowline are all the knots that are needed, but please note that this poster is from Kentucky, not the BC bush. You've been banned from the homeowner forum for this kind of spiking-topping  --keep it up and you may be out of this place too.


Am I wrong, is climbing with spurs not the safest way to climb? You gonna try and have me bannned?


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## beowulf343 (Dec 11, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Clearance, I agree with you that tautline hitch and bowline are all the knots that are needed, but please note that this poster is from Kentucky, not the BC bush. You've been banned from the homeowner forum for this kind of spiking-topping  --keep it up and you may be out of this place too.


Whoa, I climb on spikes every day and every tree I climb gets topped-you gonna throw me out of here too?




clearance said:


> Am I wrong, is climbing with spurs not the safest way to climb?


I happen to agree with you but I think that's because we've both been taught how to climb around power. Guys who've never had to work around the high lines look at climbing a bit differently-they seem to be more focused on keeping the tree safe then keeping the climber safe.

But each to their own-at the end of every day you both get the job done, right?


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## treeseer (Dec 11, 2006)

clearance said:


> Am I wrong, is climbing with spurs not the safest way to climb? You gonna try and have me bannned?


NO spurs are not safer than being tied in and ascending. I'll start a poll in ctcac on that and we'll let others opine. 2. I reported the post; not my call whether you join the boys in the banned. I think your viewpoint is valuable but you get hung up on pushing the standards of your (rural) way into other arboriculture and that does not meet the purpose of Arb 101 imnsvho.


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## clearance (Dec 11, 2006)

treeseer said:


> I reported the post


.


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## jonseredbred (Dec 11, 2006)

treeseer said:


> NO spurs are not safer than being tied in and ascending. I'll start a poll in ctcac on that and we'll let others opine. 2. I reported the post; not my call whether you join the boys in the banned. I think your viewpoint is valuable but you get hung up on pushing the standards of your (rural) way into other arboriculture and that does not meet the purpose of Arb 101 imnsvho.



what is this BS ? is this what arboristsite is all about ?


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## Jumper (Dec 11, 2006)

treeseer said:


> your (rural) way .



Them's fightin' words! 

Clearance git yer shotgun!


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## JayD (Dec 12, 2006)

Hi,
The climbers companion is a good book to get and read /study in our video section there's a hole heap of stuff on climbing,so you can see text in action as well..it helps..with topping we do not promote it but if you can not talk them out of it,it may well be you that takes the money...and horses for courses if it's a take down spike up,but just a prune trunk walk...SRT it...new to it or old hands we try and promote good safe proper technique firstly to keep ourselves safe then we turn to the health of the tree we intend to work on..I sent my Son John up a lemon scented gum to cut a limb off which our customer wanted removing as it threatened his property..he was spurred up but he trunk walked it until he got to the limb to come off then he spurred in passed his final cut point,no ugly gaff tears left on the gum,but you have to decide whats best for yourself and the tree.Spurs have there place,so does other techniques...and sometimes a combo
Good Luck

Merry Christmas to all..


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## treeseer (Dec 12, 2006)

tom john, look at the Member's List here for KY arborists to work with. There are several good ones. Climbing without spikes is easy and fun and when you learn how it'll be automatic. Plus spiking is hard on the hips and lower back--too much of it can shorten your career.

Why Topping Hurts Trees

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet, despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers better alternatives.

What is Topping?

Topping is the indiscriminate cutting of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include “heading,” “tipping,” “hat-racking,” and “rounding over.”

The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Home owners often feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term.

Topping Stresses Trees

Topping often removes 50 to 100 percent of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Because leaves are the food factories of a tree, removing them can temporarily starve a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do so, it will be seriously weakened and may die.

A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attacks. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically defend the wounds against invasion, and some insects are actually attracted to the chemical signals trees release.

Topping Causes Decay

The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch’s point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound, provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb between lateral branches create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally, a tree will “wall off,” or compartmentalize, the decaying tissues, but few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches.

Topping Can Lead to Sunburn

Branches within a tree’s crown produce thousands of leaves to absorb sunlight. When the leaves are removed, the remaining branches and trunk are suddenly exposed to high levels of light and heat. The result may be sunburn of the tissues beneath the bark, which can lead to cankers, bark splitting, and death of some branches.

Topping Creates Hazards

The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a socket of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are anchored only in the outermost layers of the parent branches.

The new shoots grow quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree’s height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before.

Topping Makes Trees Ugly

The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree.

Without leaves (up to 6 months of the year in temperate climates), a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form.

Topping Is Expensive

The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies, it will have to be removed.

Topping is a high-maintenance pruning practice, with some hidden costs. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well-maintained trees can add 10 to 20 percent to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense.

Another possible cost of topped trees is potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Because topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law.

Alternatives to Topping

Sometimes a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing so. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb is to cut back to a lateral that is at least one-third the diameter of the limb being removed.

This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site.

Hiring an Arborist

Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine the type of pruning that is necessary to improve the health, appearance, and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance.

When selecting an arborist,

* check for membership in professional organizations such as the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA). Such membership demonstrates a willingness on the part of the arborist to stay up to date on the latest techniques and information.
* check for ISA arborist certification. Certified Arborists are experienced professionals who have passed an extensive examination covering all aspects of tree care.
* ask for proof of insurance.
* ask for a list of references, and don’t hesitate to check them.
* avoid using the services of any tree company that
o advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice.
o uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 12, 2006)

:bang: :deadhorse: I assumed the person who started this post meant topping trees for removal. A skill which all decent tree climbers need to have.

Why is the topping/spiking arguement still going on in 2006????? Why does every thread that even mentions the subject get hijacked into a pi$$ing contest?


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## treeseer (Dec 12, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> :bang: :deadhorse: I assumed the person who started this post meant topping trees for removal.


OTG, was that a safe assumption? Before you answer that, drive through Kentucky. Or Athens or Brisbane or Anywhere.


> Why is the topping/spiking arguement still going on in 2006????? Why does every thread that even mentions the subject get hijacked into a pi$$ing contest?


 Because people still defend spiking and topping landscape trees (not windfirming bush) instead of trying something new.
It's an oldie but not a goodie. Like you, I wish it would go away, but here it is.


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## jonseredbred (Dec 12, 2006)

my prior comment I posted was in response to someone "reporting" a post to get someone banned because they stated that their OPINION was that climbing in spikes was safer for a beginner than another method.

and I do agree that "topping" was referring to tree removal in the post that started this mess.


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## Dixie1 (Dec 12, 2006)

there are many municipalities that have Tree Ordinances that do not allow spikes to be used on trees that are NOT being removed, my city is one of them :biggrinbounce2: . If it is marked to be removed, by all means, spike away. If it is being pruned, thank goodness not topped, because that isn't allowed either, spikes are not to be worn. it would be best for a professional to learn several different ways so that they wouldn't be limited to the type of jobs they do. If you only know how to climb a tree by means of spikes you are limiting yourself to jobs that do allow that method and excluding yourself from jobs that don't allow it.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 13, 2006)

*I believe it was............*



treeseer said:


> OTG, was that a safe assumption? Before you answer that, drive through Kentucky. Or Athens or Brisbane or Anywhere. Because people still defend spiking and topping landscape trees (not windfirming bush) instead of trying something new.
> It's an oldie but not a goodie. Like you, I wish it would go away, but here it is.



It was a safe assumption. The guy has been doing removals and now he wants to climb up to top them out. PROBABLY for removal purposes.

Even if I'm wrong, there is enough literature on the subject without a six page post from you on why topping is bad. You come across as a disgruntled seventh grade hall monitor. So go ahead report the post.:censored:


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## (WLL) (Dec 13, 2006)

*this is arborsite not cuttersite*

hackers go away if u allready know everything then u will never learn anything


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## treeseer (Dec 13, 2006)

OTG: "there is enough literature on the subject without a six page post from you on why topping is bad."

That post was some of that literature, the ISA's "Why Topping is Bad". If you don't think that needs to be said again, take a look at the trees outside of boston. Do it, or I'll tell the principal! :angry2: 

"PROBABLY for removal purposes."

Still an unsafe assumption. sorry that's true. only tom john can say otherwise.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 14, 2006)

*I get it*

I understand the whole topping arguement, being young enough to have been educated by "pro-Shigo" arborists' only. If you do ever get a chance to come to Boston look me up. I can show you a few instances where we have been able to prolong the life of several of our 200+ year old american elms by "extreme crown reduction". I am doing a project next week where eight more will be treated this way....on the same block where we have lost four to wind. I will try to post pics..............and here they are


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## bulletbob (Dec 23, 2006)

*climbing*

"Tom" It is a great start to have ground experience,And you are eager to be a climber. And learn the right way.You must learn how to handle ropes first (how to care for them and how to use them )learn all the nots from the ground first,and know them by muscle memory. you should know all the cuts. As well as learn all the tools and gear and there limits. this is a hands on training method that takes years to learn (with guidence)you must be aware of your surroundings and others. Anyone can climb a tree but what to do and why you are do it is a lot to know.(tie in,rope off.weight loads, velocity,tension etc.)I can go on forever,The only real way to learn this is with a reputable company.you will have to put your time in like everyone else,but the out come will be great and you will be better for doing so.this is how its been for the simple reason,(people getting hurt and doing damage).
THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY
P.S. anyone would hire some one like you.


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*welcome Bob*

nice post. keep it up. i like 2 hear good things on this site


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*dedicated 2 preservation*



OTG BOSTON said:


> I understand the whole topping arguement, being young enough to have been educated by "pro-Shigo" arborists' only. If you do ever get a chance to come to Boston look me up. I can show you a few instances where we have been able to prolong the life of several of our 200+ year old american elms by "extreme crown reduction". I am doing a project next week where eight more will be treated this way....on the same block where we have lost four to wind. I will try to post pics..............and here they are


its always nice to keep them old beauties around.very cool.
i wish u didn't give me that negative rating its really bothering me i did not mean 2 offend u sorry buddy:jawdrop:


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 29, 2006)

(WLL) said:


> its always nice to keep them old beauties around.very cool.
> i wish u didn't give me that negative rating its really bothering me i did not mean 2 offend u sorry buddy:jawdrop:



C'mon now, you've given me neg points for nothing in particular. At least I gave you a list of reasons why I gave 'em to you, yet you didn't have the decency to PM back. NICE!


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## diltree (Dec 29, 2006)

OTG BOSTON said:


> C'mon now, you've given me neg points for nothing in particular. At least I gave you a list of reasons why I gave 'em to you, yet you didn't have the decency to PM back. NICE!



Greg,

When I was In Boston a couple weeks ago to place a bid in on a state contract I walked through the common and actually took a moment to check out the elms and other trees in front of the state house. Its funny because I thought " greg has his hands full, these tree's are in rough shape". My question is who was responsible for some of the topping I witnessed on some of the old tree's. Was it the city's action in response to concern about height and safety, or just storm damage over the years. I heard that some of the elms in Boston were injected with alamo to stop the progression and establishment of dutch elms disease...Is this true? Does the city have any plans to incorporate PHC to preserve the tree's in areas like the common?


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 29, 2006)

Thats alot of questions Tim. In brief: the city spends about 10K a year on injections in the Common, Public Garden, and the Comm. Ave Mall. There is about another 20K that is kicked in by private communtiy groups. We also spend about 10k a year on fert. in these parks as needed to help declining trees in need of a boost. And finally we budget 10K a year for removals and emergency pruning of trees that become infected with DED. So hows 50K a year for PHC? I would hazard a guess that no trees in the country recieve as much care as the american elms in these parks do.

As far as the "topping" goes, we call it "severe crown reduction". The man who has been looking after these trees for the past 50 or so years is considered THE authority on american elms. I am sure you have seen him lecture before.


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## diltree (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't know of any towns that have a budget for PHC, Its great that the city invests in preserving those old tree's in the common, and is no doubt the reason the common is one of the few places you can find an old American elm. I know I hit you with a ton of questions, but I have one more for you, what exactly is the theory of " severe crown reduction" on American elms as a course of preservation. I have a couple American elms we have worked on, at one point is a severe crown reduction a warranted course of action.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 29, 2006)

*D-railed!*

I'll PM you with the details.


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## diltree (Dec 29, 2006)

maybe we should start a thread concerning this issue, didnt mean to highjack this one.


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## OTG BOSTON (Dec 29, 2006)

check 'yo box man!


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