# Using a truck to pull a tree down



## Marky Mark

I was wondering if using a truck to pull a tree down while cutting it is an acceptable practice???

Me I would never do it but it seems some climbers feel it's a safe quick way to get the job done cheaply. Instead of a climber chunking it down just tie a rope to it and have it.


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## sperho

Whether or not it's an acceptable idea to me would depend on how big the tree is....


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## Ed*L

I use a truck & 9000lb winch quite frequently. I'll get a dozer if I feel the tree is to large for the capacity of the truck & winch.
But, I'm not a climber and I'm pulling over leaners that are in the woods or a fencerow.
I don't think I would do it if the placement of the tree was extremely critical. Not pulling exactly in-line with the hinge could have some bad results.

Ed


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## grizzly2

Just like everything else, there's a time and a place. I've seen guys using a truck to pull a tree over and the tree was at least three times the weight of the truck. Now, I realize that the leverage is there, but if something goes wrong, say goodbye to the truck. It's not a preferred method of arboriculture, but yes, it can be used. Me personally, I'd rather tie the tree off to a 5 to 1 or a come-along and take care of it. That way, if crap goes bad, it's one less thing that you have to worry about.


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## Grace Tree

I've pulled lots of trees with a truck. In cases where you need positive pulling force to continue for more than the initial fall of the tree it's probably one of the most effective methods. A winch, fiddle blocks or come-along isn't going control more than the first few feet of fall. To me, pulling a tree with a vehicle always looks kind of amateur so we rarely do it unless it's the best method. I'd rather set blocks and a winch and crank the tree. It's a bit more peaceful and I think it looks more professional. There can be some weird forces involved if the puller is a little over zealous so we usually make a high stump cut and snub up the trunk to the stump with straps. The only "no break" rule we have is that the faller must have eye contact (rear view mirrors) with the driver. No whistles, relay signals or radios. Driver has vehicle running and in gear with his foot on the brake and moves only on the fallers hand signals.
Phil


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## CoreyTMorine

Pulling with a truck, tractor or skidder is one of the most efficient methods available for getting a tree to go exactly where you want it to. I often pull off to one side of the lay, in order to compensate for lean or limb weight, also so you don’t hit the skidder if the cable is to short. The real benefit of pulling comes from rigging low on the tree, I just put my forks up and climb on top of them, this gets my line about 14’ up. From this height I can pull 3 tons of lean or limb weight right over, and because I’m tied in low I can keep up with the fall, and pull the tree a little more towards me even after it is falling. With a skidder winch at 12 feet there isn’t to much I would be scared to pull over, regardless of side or back lean. 

Just imagine being able to push a tree with 9000 pounds of force at 10 feet up. That is alot of force!

Both the cutter and the puller must be experienced with this procedure. 

It can be a disaster, but that is true of everything in our world. Falling a tree with a pull vehicle is only unprofessional if the people doing the work are not proficient. But for two workers who are familiar and well practiced it is one of the fastest, most accurate tools available to us for falling trees whole.


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## luvthetrobag

CoreyTMorine said:


> Pulling with a truck, tractor or skidder is one of the most efficient methods available for getting a tree to go exactly where you want it to. I often pull off to one side of the lay, in order to compensate for lean or limb weight, also so you don’t hit the skidder if the cable is to short. The real benefit of pulling comes from rigging low on the tree, I just put my forks up and climb on top of them, this gets my line about 14’ up. From this height I can pull 3 tons of lean or limb weight right over, and because I’m tied in low I can keep up with the fall, and pull the tree a little more towards me even after it is falling. With a skidder winch at 12 feet there isn’t to much I would be scared to pull over, regardless of side or back lean.
> 
> Just imagine being able to push a tree with 9000 pounds of force at 10 feet up. That is alot of force!
> 
> Both the cutter and the puller must be experienced with this procedure.
> 
> It can be a disaster, but that is true of everything in our world. Falling a tree with a pull vehicle is only unprofessional if the people doing the work are not proficient. But for two workers who are familiar and well practiced it is one of the fastest, most accurate tools available to us for falling trees whole.


I'm a big fan of this method as well and agree completly with your last paragraph. To many times people try use to much force to get the thing over which can lead to many problems. The basic idea is to walk the tree over with just as much pressure as needed. Not rip it over. Its all about making a perfect notch, and then cutting to a perfect hinge.And letting the truck slowly and evenly pull the tree so it can fall in to the notch. Its a valuble tool but it still has its limits. Ive seen guys smash things because the swore there beefed up truck could pull some rediculous leaner where they wanted it.


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## Tree Slayer

treeruyak said:


> Just like everything else, there's a time and a place. I've seen guys using a truck to pull a tree over and the tree was at least three times the weight of the truck. Now, I realize that the leverage is there, but if something goes wrong, say goodbye to the truck. It's not a preferred method of arboriculture, but yes, it can be used. Me personally, I'd rather tie the tree off to a 5 to 1 or a come-along and take care of it. That way, if crap goes bad, it's one less thing that you have to worry about.


 Where is it written that pulling a tree over with a truck is not a preferred method of arboriculture? We pull trees over all the time from using a skid steer to a triaxle log truck with a 1" bull rope, all depends on how big the tree is. anything hairy, over a house or anything else that could be hurt by the tree being removed has a truck on it.


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## stihlaficionado

I used a pick-up to take down a 25 ft pine in the front yard. Didn't quite get the distance calculated right and put a 3 inch dent in the cab...Good thing
I don't do it for a living...:deadhorse:


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## tree md

Using a truck to fell a tree is absolutely the best method to drop one on a dime. The trick is to get a pull with the truck then set the breaks. Have your groundies get on the rope after you have the pull with the truck. Your notch is critical. I have had huge tops, leaning over houses pulled off of me with a truck. If a tree is leaning in the wrong direction I like to get a rope about 3/4 up the tree, get a pull then inspect it. If I can get it standing straight up and down I know I can hinge it over. Let up tension and cut you notch no more than 1/3 through the tree. Once you get another pull and inspect, you will see you can get it over a little further with the notch cut. Get back and make a good consistent cut as you hinge it over, watch the top and make a controlled fell. No need to keep pulling with the truck as it comes over, just use it to anchor the tree, have your groundies pull it over with a good, steady even pull.

When I split two ornamental shrubs spread out and spaced about 3' apart with the trunk of a 90' pine no one thought I looked unprofessional. On the contrary, they were quite impressed.


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## Wismer

I think any one who has access to heavy machinery to pull down trees would use it in a tricky situation.

I'd rather risk looking "unprofessional" and use one of my tractor's than drop a tree one something it shouldnt be on.


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## Wismer

tree md said:


> When I split two ornamental shrubs spread out and spaced about 3' apart with the trunk of a 90' pine no one thought I looked unprofessional. On the contrary, they were quite impressed.



Well put tree md, Personally I think it looks quite professional to have the machinery and do a good job.


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## Magnum783

Agreed the only part that would make you look unprofessional would be the using them when they don't need to be used or using them and not using them properly. I just wish I had all the equipment you guys have mentioned. I think using one is a great idea one more card in your deck to help it go exactly where you want it. As Ekka says "spot on"
Jared


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## treeman82

Personally I prefer to use my winch and a 4:1 than a truck. I know that I won't overload the system, but at the same time I know I'll have plenty of pull and won't be getting dragged backwards if the tree goes the wrong way. On the other hand, if I had a 1" bull rope and a 10 wheel dump truck then I'd have a far different attitude.


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## DDM

Just yesterday we used a Skidsteer connected to a 3/4" bullrope to pull overa 48" dbh 40' foot tall trunk the had a back lean.Big wood like this we usually always connect the skidsteer to.


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## SilentElk

I have pulled over alot of tree's and saved a lot of work. I have pulled them over up to 115' measured height and 60"+ diameter cottonwoods. The biggest were in feilds and to help direct them about from large haybales. 

Dont get me wrong, this isnt for the faint of heart and I cant imagine trying to train a guy how to do it. But in the right situation it can take a tree down fast safe, and right whre you want it.

Not having a bucket truck or manlift will get you creative in a hurry.


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## TimberMcPherson

The limiting factor is using a vehicle is traction. My tip truck is 4wd and with a couple tonnes of mulch on the back it grips well, Something to watch for is that when a line is up in a tree and you pull forward the rope does slightly lift the rear of the vehicle if the tension builds, severly limiting traction when its needed most. 

I give the tree a test pull before any cuts are made to be certain of the outcome. Im more inclined to chock all 4 wheels and use a tirfor. Easier communication and feel, and I feel it offers better control.


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## Treeman587

I do it all the time. I have even pulled a tree from a corner through other trees. All this talk about time and costs etc. How about 3 hours worth of climbing compared to thirty minutes of rigging and felling. I use a 12000lb winch on the front of a 3/4 ton pickup. I usually set two bull lines also. With a winch the operator can see exactly what is going on a lot better than someone in the cab of a truck. No bore cuts here though. Make a normal backcut and watch the stretch of the lines and you can pull some big stuff over


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## grizzly2

As I said before, I have and will continue to use this method. Mainly my point was that there is a time and a place. As far as being an arboriculturally sound practice, I stick with my original statement that it is not. It is a controlled force issue, to me. Yes, experience dictates how much force is enough, but it is the acquiring of that experience that creates problems. To me, professionalism is utmost. If you've done it before to great success, super, keep up the good work. If you've never done, and are reading this thread for 'ideas', then back away, put the truck keys down, and figure out a different way.
It comes down to a different mentality. When I worked for The Care of Trees, using vehicles / equipment to pull trees over was a giant no-no. Is this an over-the-top safety issue, possibly. Does that mean that I'll never do it again, no. I simply feel that on my jobsites, I'll reach for a fiddle block, 5 to 1, or a come-along. Many times, I've used the chip truck or bucket truck (with bucket stowed) as my anchor for the rigging if no other suitable spot existed. But the truck is turned off, it is simply my anchor.


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## a_lopa

Its not a problem Marky,like everything in life just know your limitations.One guy got his foot crushed recently by bad procedures during a crane job(no guessing who)

If you google his name it might help.


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## ckliff

a_lopa said:


> If you google his name it might help.



Man, you Aussies just won't let it go, will ya?


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## ropensaddle

I use 20 ton pto winch on my bucket truck all the time
and have never had anyone say it looked unprofessional
fourteen feet up and get tight most times is all that is needed!
I can up root a 20 inch oak if its not needing critical felling and 
then don't have to grind stump.


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## Mike Barcaskey

gee, so if used properly its an accepted method. isn't that interesting marky?


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## Stihl User

I've done it before. Whats the difference between this & using a winch?!?!?


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## a_lopa

ckliff said:


> Man, you Aussies just won't let it go, will ya?



I pray to god and let the devil sort the rest.Halalueya


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## crashagn

Last time i used my pickup was last year. On a old cottonwood 15ft away and leaning towards the house. Took off as much off of the lean side as high up as i could safely go, then start hooking up the log chains about 20ft up. Used my 1/2 ton chevy pickity up with alot of wieght and hook the 100+ ft of chains to the front to have my father pull backwords. Worked perfect. I have another tree coming up here in a week for a coworker, its a leaner next to a blacktop road. Will have to do the same thing but this time will be using a 1256 IH tractor


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## grizzly2

Winches are great, you have much more constant control than you do when pulling with the truck itself.


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## grizzly2

The 'unprofessional' part was regarding pulling with just the truck, not using a winch.


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## Treeman587

a_lopa said:


> Its not a problem Marky,like everything in life just know your limitations.One guy got his foot crushed recently by bad procedures during a crane job(no guessing who)
> 
> If you google his name it might help.




Who the hell did that?


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## Tree Slayer

treeruyak said:


> The 'unprofessional' part was regarding pulling with just the truck, not using a winch.



Now it's unprofessional, Ok I guess we just disagree.


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## ropensaddle

treeruyak said:


> Winches are great, you have much more constant control than you do when pulling with the truck itself.



Yes now that I have a winch it is wonderful however a truck can work
for pull as well if get tight and bow over a little put in gear and set brake
you have steady pull. Then if the helpers pull that line with another works
just fine in most cases. You have to make sure there is enough rope to
clear truck I would say a little under equipped but not necessarily unpro-
fessional I have done it before got a winch and worked fine. I also have
used a truck and junk rope to pull brush piles out of deep draws to make
cleanup easier and help moral if you help a groundy by limiting his effort
it pays big dividends. If you have a rope with twice the breaking strength
of torque applied from vehicle and auto tranny just have man keep the rope tight as you make back cut don't spin out just keep steady pull also
works well. I would think having enough pull to get the tree over would
be the biggest concern besides rope strong enough to handle the job.
grcs is great but over priced to me and slow compared to winch or truck
I think skill is what sets professionals apart not weather he has every tool
suggested by the industry.


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## Marky Mark

Mike Barcaskey said:


> gee, so if used properly its an accepted method. isn't that interesting marky?



Mike these guys are using heavy gear not a half ton pickup. If a tree is roped to a half ton pick up like you did and that tree pulls the other way it's a disiaster waiting to happen. There are many climbers on this site, I bet they don't pull trees down when there are houses and such involved.

Being the cheapest guy to do a job doen't mean your getting the best job with the best trained treemen. I guess that is why so many men on here are first class competing against a tree hack for a winning bid. I rememeber not to long ago you walked under a tree that was being cut resulting in an accident. But like all things in life you get what you pay for. 

Now I am no climber but I can hold my own with a chainsaw in a woods enviorment. Like the tree near my house I would never attempt to drop it. But after speaking with 4 tree guys I went with the guy who had a 120 foot bucket truck. The triple crotch ash was dead. All three were willing to climb it, the last guy who was higher priced was against climbing it since the stump was growing around a large rock. He felt since part of the tree was dead and the other dying where the rock came up in the center it could snap.


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## tree md

You know I have been doing this work for nearly 20 years. I have worked for hacks and worked for the largest services out there. I have done everything from aerial lifts to kitty cat rescue. I have worked for myself for the past several years and done OK. I'm no certified arborist but I do consider myself to be professional and to be a pretty good tree man. From my first days of working out of a pickup to working with boom, dump and chipper every service I have worked for has used a truck to pull a tree over at one time or another. It's just common sense. Being a good tree man means finding whatever advantages you can and using whatever resources you have to gain leverage to get the job done. I have done jobs where all the homeowner wanted was for me to drop the trees and leave them for him to clean up. One in particular comes to mind where I dropped 3 pines for $600 and left them where they lay. That's how I priced it and it's what the homeowner wanted. Are you telling me it would have been more professional to spend a half day or day climbing these trees and piecing them out than tying them off to a truck and dropping them on a dime in an hours time???


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## Mike Barcaskey

mark, you didn't see the tree, you don't have any idea of the situation
ever use a wedge?
you're just blowing out your arse


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## Mike Barcaskey

tree md,
that was the situation. I could have spent 4 hours rigging it down over the shed and through the brush at the bottom.
or flop it over with a little help from the truck and some wedges in under an hour
put some tension on the tree with the truck, notch and enough back cut to set a wedge, stand the tree up with the truck and then cut and wedge it over


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## Magnum783

crashagn said:


> Last time i used my pickup was last year. On a old cottonwood 15ft away and leaning towards the house. Took off as much off of the lean side as high up as i could safely go, then start hooking up the log chains about 20ft up. Used my 1/2 ton chevy pickity up with alot of wieght and hook the 100+ ft of chains to the front to have my father pull backwords. Worked perfect. I have another tree coming up here in a week for a coworker, its a leaner next to a blacktop road. Will have to do the same thing but this time will be using a 1256 IH tractor



Sweet you have a 1256 IH they are quite rare not as rare as a 1456 but still rare. I am from Iowa originally. PM me I would be quite interested to know where you are from.
Jared


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## luvthetrobag

Mike Barcaskey said:


> tree md,
> that was the situation. I could have spent 4 hours rigging it down over the shed and through the brush at the bottom.
> or flop it over with a little help from the truck and some wedges in under an hour
> put some tension on the tree with the truck, notch and enough back cut to set a wedge, stand the tree up with the truck and then cut and wedge it over


Im confused. Whats the point of the wedge? Ive never used one so im curious on how they supply any more leverage than a rope. Ive dropped quite a few trees and never used a wedge just ropes. Always seemed to me that a rope beat a wedge hands down. So why use one. You said stand the tree up with a rope. Why not just pull it all the way over with one.


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## Marky Mark

*ever use a wedge?*

Yes and that is why Gypo calls me the Wedge HO. I feel comfortable using a wedge than a truck to take down a big tree. But hey to each his own as long as know one gets hurt.


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## Frank Boyer

My loader pushes at around 12' high and my old excavator had authority pushing at 20' high. I've used both to push small trees over and to make sure larger trees went the right way when cut. They are tools and are very usefull. I don't pretend to be a tree service/aborist.


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## joesawer

Most safety people involved in tree trimming say to never use a truck and an arborist rope to pull over a tree. Most rope manufactures don't want a rope ever tied to a truck. (I don't want one of my ropes pulled with a truck except by myself and a very few other people.)
The reason is that they are trying to make the business idiot proof. A half ton truck can easily build enough momentum to break a 3/4" rope. Good tie off points with out sharp corners are hard to find unless you have tow hooks or something else set up for tieing a rope to.
BUT I have pulled over a lot of trees with a truck in the past and will continue to in the future.
The wedges are a good idea in case the rope breaks. They will stop the tree from rocking all the way back.
What do wedges have to do with walking under a tree while it is being cut?


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## geofore

*truck use*

I'll admit I use a truck to pull trees over, with a 3:1 or 4:1 block and tackle setup you can over power a tree with a smaller truck. If you are concerned about lifting the trucks rear wheels off the ground use a redirect off a nearby stump to lower the rope to ground level while adding additional leverage at the same time. Yes, it takes a longer rope to do this. After waiting 3 days for the power company to show to drop a power line so I could drop a large tree into the front lawn, they were a no show. I set the rigging to pull the 4' DBH, 100'+ silver maple over backwards against the lean and used a Ford Ranger to pull it over. 4:1 block and tackle with a redirect to lower the tail of the rope to ground level. Did it look pro? The tree did a 120* spin off the stump and landed with the croutch to the left and right side of the honeylocust in the backyard, 79' from the maple stump without taking off a branch/leaf of the locust. The maple measured over 100' on the ground. George, the engineer who lived next door and Tom the engineer who's the homeowner, witnessed the event and they were impressed with the takedown. I could have spent 2 days taking the tree apart a piece at a time or do what I did, take off 7 limbs and over into the back yard in under 3 hours. Two limbs hung over the power line, one in a nearby white pine and one in a nearby hemlock and a couple towards the house. There are times when a truck will do what no other tool in your bag of tricks will do to save time. Did it look professional? I can't say but it did leave them with a lasting impression, I know what I'm doing. Too avoid a sharp edge on the truck I used a few 111kn steel caribeners hooked to one another like chain links to attach to the trucks frame through a factory made hole in the frame and out past the bumper/ sharp edges. :chainsawguy:


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## a_lopa

If ive got a tree that i need to be 100% on it going where i want it i hire in a guy with his road grader to pull it,makes it reak easy.


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## ropensaddle

I have yet to find a tree my 20 ton winch will not pull.
I have more pull than needed and no doubt where it will fall 
my confidence is from years of doing the impossible with less
than I have today. It really doesn't take all that to pull tree over
unless lean is a factor but even that can be handled with correct
placement and sawing. My problem is usually there is no where to fall
and must be pieced down then I know I must climb another probably
number 500000 or so bwth it is my job.


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## beowulf343

I use whatever means are at my disposal to get a tree safely on the ground. Yep, i've pulled them over with tractors, trucks, dozers, skidders, etc. (Word of caution-skidders can put alot of tension on a tree--watch for barber chairs.) However, most of my jobs are in backyards with no access for any kind of equipment. Being able to drop a tree with wedges is an excellent skill to have. Even if the tree is tied off, i'll still pop in a wedge or two-seen too many ropes break. Better not to put all your eggs in one basket.


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## a_lopa

Its not so much a backleaning tree its the rotten ones that are a worry.

Like MBs teeth


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## Kneejerk Bombas

joesawer said:


> Most safety people involved in tree trimming say to never use a truck and an arborist rope to pull over a tree. Most rope manufactures don't want a rope ever tied to a truck. (I don't want one of my ropes pulled with a truck except by myself and a very few other people.)
> The reason is that they are trying to make the business idiot proof. A half ton truck can easily build enough momentum to break a 3/4" rope. Good tie off points with out sharp corners are hard to find unless you have tow hooks or something else set up for tieing a rope to.
> BUT I have pulled over a lot of trees with a truck in the past and will continue to in the future.
> The wedges are a good idea in case the rope breaks. They will stop the tree from rocking all the way back.
> What do wedges have to do with walking under a tree while it is being cut?



Good post.

The truck pull has some risks. Out in the woods is one thing, 20 feet from a house would make me nervous.

Wedges have limits. You can put a lot more pressure on a tree with a well placed rope or two, than with the best wedging.
Wedges are also very species dependent. A typical evergreen can be wedged very effectively, while some hardwoods can be steered very little with wedges.


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## ArtB

As has been said, good accuracy with cable. 

Never have pulled a tree over with a 'rope', but have done hundreds with chain or wire rope and crawler. 

Posted the attached pix 4 years ago or so, dropped the tallest cottonwood I have ever seen (in own back yard, it was 30 or more feet higher than some nearby that were nearly twice the diameter, measured about 165 ft when dropped). 
Happened to have an old '78 Dodge body, parked it 110 feet from the tree, hit it square on. (crunch.jpg)


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## pbtree

I have used, and will use again, a truck to pull on a tree - but I only do so under what I consider safe circumstances.... When in doubt, I climb it and take it down in sections...


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## ropensaddle

a_lopa said:


> Its not so much a backleaning tree its the rotten ones that are a worry.
> 
> Like MBs teeth


Yeah then you have backleaning hollow rotten
ones with less than 20 percent of trunk sound like the one two weeks ago
top live bottom like mentioned. Ps thank you winch you helped me from
four hours of butt flinching dangerous work and possible injury!


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## clearance

Mike Maas said:


> Good post.
> 
> The truck pull has some risks. Out in the woods is one thing, 20 feet from a house would make me nervous.
> 
> Wedges have limits. You can put a lot more pressure on a tree with a well placed rope or two, than with the best wedging.
> Wedges are also very species dependent. A typical evergreen can be wedged very effectively, while some hardwoods can be steered very little with wedges.



When its 20' from the house (or closer) thats when you use a truck, just using wedges to fall those trees can make me nervous. But I like to roll the dice. You are right about species, what I do with most conifers I would never try with maples or cottonwoods etc. We pulled over a big (3= d.b.h., 110' to its busted top) dead fir that had a very heavy lean towards the powerline yesterday. Two Tirfors, two bull ropes. I it could have bee pulled over with the bucket truck, I would have done that, not possible. Pulled over more trees with trucks than I can remember, works good but the faller has to run the show and be obeyed, if not barberchairs and snapped ropes can result, with possible fatal results.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

clearance said:


> When its 20' from the house (or closer) thats when you use a truck, just using wedges to fall those trees can make me nervous.


I think you might be confusing the topic a little. The danger of the truck pull is that the truck has so much power and it's not well controlled. It is enough to break ropes or the top of the tree out. Clear communication is also difficult between the operator and the feller.

I wasn't suggesting to use wedges when close to a house, although that might work fine on easy drops, I was saying not to use the truck to pull. 

I would use ropes and maybe even anchor the ropes to a truck. But then I park the truck and take the keys out before tying the rope on, so nobody accidentally moves the truck without knowing theres a rope tied to it.

The safest method is to set a rope, anchor it, then piggyback a pulling device on the rope to supply tension. The device you choose should not be strong enough to break the rope. A z-rig, GRCS, a winch, or come-a-long come to mind.

Pulling a tree over takes much less force than most people know. Too much force and the hinge doesn't get a chance to work, things break, stuff gets wrecked, and people die.


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## ropensaddle

Mike Maas said:


> I think you might be confusing the topic a little. The danger of the truck pull is that the truck has so much power and it's not well controlled. It is enough to break ropes or the top of the tree out. Clear communication is also difficult between the operator and the feller.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting to use wedges when close to a house, although that might work fine on easy drops, I was saying not to use the truck to pull. I would use ropes and maybe even anchor the ropes to a truck. But then I park the truck and take the keys out before tying the rope on, so nobody accidentally moves the truck without knowing theres a rope tied to it.
> 
> The safest method is to set a rope, anchor it, then piggyback a pulling device on the rope to supply tension. The device you choose should not be strong enough to break the rope. A z-rig, GRCS, a winch, or come-a-long come to mind.
> 
> Pulling a tree over takes much less force than most people know. Too much force and the hinge doesn't get a chance to work, things break, stuff gets wrecked, and people die.


The safest method I have is set winch cable back off 200 feet and get a pull just enough to shake top a little all the pull usually
needed and I shut truck off pto in gear if I need more pull I have my helper start the truck and bump the clutch usually first bump tree is ready to give go ahead to bring it over. I always get the initial pull so I know it is just enough to start fall and I have never exploded the stump but could be done as twenty ton pull can do wild things.I feel much better with the winch set up than any rope but have used them in the past, I try to select a rope that exceeds the pull being placed on it by truck as it is possible to have one strong enough to spin tires on the vehicle but should not be done.


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## clearance

clearance said:


> Pulled over more trees with trucks than I can remember, works good but the faller has to run the show and be obeyed, if not barberchairs and snapped ropes can result, with possible fatal results.



We use hand signals, we have a talk right before we do it, everyone gets on the same page. The hand signals are-one hand imitating talking which means little bit, little bit, upraised fist which means stop. I too have heard stories off people getting excited and racing off with the truck, and you are right Mike, you don't have to pull like you are bringing up the Titanic. I have also fell trees with the help of big excavators, the falller has to be obeyed there as well. When you do removals all the time and have enough of a crew to make it happen and big enough ropes and trucks they work fine. Someone else here suggested using a 4x4, chocking the wheels and then using a Tirfor, this works great, I have done this when I there were only two people.


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## youknowwho

Well, using a couple of tons of force to pull, to help make sure a giant mass of wood doesnt land on someones living room?


Might be a good idea sometimes.


With the RIGHT EXPERIENCE, how could you not use a truck SOMETIMES?


a tree being pulled in a certain direction along with a good notch is usually a better idea than hoping that stick will just fall in the right spot.

Helps to if the tree want s to go back on you.too


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## diltree

We use the truck and a stable-braid rigging line to pull over heavy butts all the time! We have also used the truck and line to fell tree's. The key is communication and experience, too much pressure can cause the tree to barber chair, especially if your dealing with a wood that holds, like hickory or white oak. We usually apply enough pressure so that the line is taught (this is not allot of pressure), then as the back-cut is made and the desired hinge has been reached the signal will be given to the driver to add more pressure. Its very important to be aware of the type of wood and its hold factor as well as the rigging lines breaking strength when using a truck to fell. Lastly make sure you find a nice strong stick to place in the bowline knot or you will be spending time pounding the knot out in your vice!


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## tree md

Diltree, are you using a running bowline? Just curious, because the reason I love that knot so much is it is very easy to untie after it has been loaded.


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## John Ellison

My thoughts are, if you have the line in the top third of the tree you can tell how much pull is being applied by just looking. On a larger tree that wont have much flex, you will have to feel the line. Experience is the only way you can figure it out.
Clearance is right, the faller is running the show. Nothing should be done without his signal. (No chance of com. foul up if you are a one man show) I like hi-lead hand signals. Worst senario is the puller thinking on his own.
Instead of a knot, I would rather use something large and round to hitch to. Two round turns and a couple of half hitches on a 3" dia. hook that I can hang off the frame works for me.
I use a truck, but am more likely to use a Maasdam rope puller. 
If it is a sound tree there is no need to rush. Loggers used to stand trees up with just line and blocks. And they did'nt even need no stinking hinge.


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## nytreeman

I climb probably 95% of my removals but if the opportunity is there to pull it over I will if it can be done safely,I've used pulley blocks,tractors,trucks and winched them over and I almost always use a wedge to help hold it from rocking back in the cut in case of a broken rope but if its something to bad I use two ropes.But Clearance is right the faller is in control and you def have to have someone doing the pulling that knows whats going on,communication is a must!


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## teamtree

*Using a truck to pull a tree is not unprofessional*

We have pulled over 100 trees with a truck. We have used a 5 to 1, a come along, a 12K winch on chip truck. I have used a 34hp tractor many times. We have used blocks and multiple blocks. The only problem I ever had was with a winch that did not pull fast enough but I blame that on my inexperience and how I cut the tree.

You have to be a professional to know when and how to use each. We have rigged many trees in which we thought that was the safest method. 

Again, we do what it takes to the the job done based upon each individual situation.


----------



## Tree Machine

Hey team tree, 

Here's a bit of video from a couple years ago when you and your crew came up and helped me on a day job, actually a two-day job, but you awesome dudes made it a one-day job.

This tree was _way_ dead and leaning towards the pond. We coulda hammered in wedges, but with dead leaners that need to be dropped at a different angle to the lean, the hinge becomes much less predictable. Perfectly sawn and directioned notches and back cuts can fail miserably as brittle, non-living trunks don't follow the same sense of reason as moist, live wood. This tree would have predictably fallen in the pond and caused us undue pain and time in cleaning up and getting it out of the water. What this tree needed was to be notched and back-cut properly and yanked over forcefully the direction we needed.

In keeping the video short, I didn't include the pre-tensioning and the safety talk and instruction before the felling, just the last of the back cut and the result.

I can't remember which of your guys was in the driver's seat, but he did a great job. I had to do the saw work because if the tree hit the water, I wanted to be 100% to blame for that.


----------



## ropensaddle

teamtree said:


> We have pulled over 100 trees with a truck. We have used a 5 to 1, a come along, a 12K winch on chip truck. I have used a 34hp tractor many times. We have used blocks and multiple blocks. The only problem I ever had was with a winch that did not pull fast enough but I blame that on my inexperience and how I cut the tree.
> 
> You have to be a professional to know when and how to use each. We have rigged many trees in which we thought that was the safest method.
> 
> Again, we do what it takes to the the job done based upon each individual situation.



My winch is two speed and if don't put it more than twenty feet up 
fast enough for the girls I date! Also you can just back the truck up 
to get a faster speed but not needed on my pto two speed just put
in high and rev the engine and you have tons of pull at a fast rate!


----------



## Wismer

teamtree said:


> You have to be a professional to know when and how to use each.



I disagree.


----------



## clearance

Wismer said:


> I disagree.



Is that it? C'mon, tell us more.


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## Timberhauler

clearance said:


> Is that it? C'mon, tell us more.



opcorn: ...You're funny Clearance...opcorn:


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## Wismer

I'm just saying, I'm not a professional. I have pulled numerous trees down, both leaners and standing. It can be dangerous. Common sense and realistic expectations are critical. For example, you can't expect pull a heavy rotten leaner the opposite way of it's lean.

Bottom line, know what you are doing, and keep it safe, but I don;t think this felling tactic is limited to "professionals"

Craig


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## vandal

I skimmed thru the posts and I didn't see anything mentioned about barber-chair. I have no problem floppin em with equipment but overloading will result in barber-chair. easy to overload with machines. If you don't understand how barber-chair happens, do NOT pull with equipment. I saw a guy do it once. incurred barber-chair and luckily nothing/nobody got hurt but he was left scratching his head and changing his underwear.


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## clearance

vandal said:


> I skimmed thru the posts and I didn't see anything mentioned about barber-chair. I have no problem floppin em with equipment but overloading will result in barber-chair. easy to overload with machines. If you don't understand how barber-chair happens, do NOT pull with equipment. I saw a guy do it once. incurred barber-chair and luckily nothing/nobody got hurt but he was left scratching his head and changing his underwear.



Welcome to the site. Wrap the stem with a good chain above the undercut, like at least a grade 70 with a decent grab hook. Prevents chairing, brought up manty times here.


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## ropensaddle

I prefer a heavy duty strap binder as it gets tight on spar!
It is easier to handle and just as strong I used it on this tree
and had to pull against lean I guess it is rotten?


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## teamtree

*wismer...did not imply you had to be a professional to use a rope*

I have known many people who used a rope to pull a tree over and they are not employed by a tree service.

I also know many people you had a bad experience when they did not set the rope correctly or place the cable high enough in the tree or did not do something that a professional may have done to prevent the mishap.

I think you have to be a "professional" or have quite a bit of experience or understanding to know when you can pull a tree over with a truck or when you need to piece it down or rig it out or call in a crane or whatever. Some people that I have talked to or know think they can pull every damn tree over and it is a crap shoot as to whether it works. I have seen the damaged they have caused because they did not take the time to assess the situation and take the correct action in getting the tree down.

My main point is that a professional would know to assess the situation and apply the appropriate procedures. I am sorry if I offended you, but I would put my money on a true "professional" any day than someone who is not in this business when it comes to getting a tree down close to a house or other hazard.


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## Wismer

teamtree said:


> I have known many people who used a rope to pull a tree over and they are not employed by a tree service.
> 
> I also know many people you had a bad experience when they did not set the rope correctly or place the cable high enough in the tree or did not do something that a professional may have done to prevent the mishap.
> 
> I think you have to be a "professional" or have quite a bit of experience or understanding to know when you can pull a tree over with a truck or when you need to piece it down or rig it out or call in a crane or whatever. Some people that I have talked to or know think they can pull every damn tree over and it is a crap shoot as to whether it works. I have seen the damaged they have caused because they did not take the time to assess the situation and take the correct action in getting the tree down.
> 
> My main point is that a professional would know to assess the situation and apply the appropriate procedures. I am sorry if I offended you, but I would put my money on a true "professional" any day than someone who is not in this business when it comes to getting a tree down close to a house or other hazard.



Point taken team tree. I still disagree on your main point: a professional knows when to use a rope or when to climb, 

A professional should know how to do both, but I think alot of us ordinary folks can tell when we can do it ourselves or when to call in help (granted, some people seem to think they can do anything). I guess I disagree because living on a farm we have more tools and equipment than city dwellers. I'm by no means saying I'm a professional, but we like to do as much as we can. There is a line however, that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to tricky removals 

I too would put my money on a professional when it comes to a technical/hazardous takedown 

cheers,

Craig


----------



## teamtree

It is your right to disagree. It is your property and you can do whatever you want on it. I deal with your kind every day. Guys want to call up and get an estimate and then they say they can do it themselves. Well, we (arborists/professional tree services) are the people they call when they don't want to take a chance.

I am not sure why you took offense to my comment but hey I guess you pulled a couple of trees and think you can do it whenever you feel like it. How many trees have you rigged down without a piece of the tree hitting the ground?

Go back to the beginning of the thread and re-read the whole thing. I am sure you have seen so much more than the rest of us on your farm. Like trees in which people built a deck around it and now need it out. Or trees that were planted and then came the powerlines, fences, landscaping, pools. I am sure you have seen it all. 

The original question was whether it was an acceptable practice. I think it is an acceptable practice. 

A few post later someone mentioned it was "unprofessional". I responded that you need to be a professional to know when to use each particular method (i.e. climbing and rigging, bucket and rigging, blocks, multiple blocks, winches, trucks, skidders, dozers, 5 in 1, grcs, rope pullers).

You go throw your rope in all the trees you want. You are not a professional if you do not do this full-time. If you think you are but you don't do it full-time, then why? Is it a hobby?

You have to understand what arborists deal with everyday. I would say that most of the calls we get are not for trees in which we can simply pull them over. Being a professional, in my opinion, is knowing when to pull a tree over (i.e. not taking a huge risk to save time by pulling a rotten tree or heavy leaner) and when to bring it down in another manner. 

Loggers use this method all the time but I would never let them do it there way on one of my jobs. I have seen them spin out due to not putting their cables high enough. Putting a cable 20' up a 100' tree with a good lean is not a smart thing.


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## teamtree

wismer...do you no how to read....

being a professional means knowing when to use a certain method and when not to use it. Never said you could not pull a tree over. 

I.e. would it be very professional if I took a 50/50 chance of cutting a tree with a rope and truck or would it be better to pull up a bucket truck and cut the top out and drop the spar in which i reduced my chances of destroying a customers property by 45 - 50%. What I was really getting at, is there are many guys "in the biz" without the proper equipment so they take chances of cutting that tree with a rope and truck as opposed to climbing it or using a bucket truck. When those guys have problems it makes us all look bad. That is not being professional. I am sure everyone has had some problems from time to time but it is when the same set of guys keep making the same mistake, I think that is unprofessional. They are not making the right choices of getting trees on the ground. That is not to say if you have the equipment that you are a professional either. One of the biggest hacks in my area has the nicest equipment you could imagine. Tears more ???? up than you can believe. I love it cause his ex-customers love us when we show up.

At any rate, do what you want. You obviously missed my point. It was not a point in which you can disagree or agree. So thanks for pissing me off and getting me going.


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## teamtree

wismer...do you no how to read....

being a professional means knowing when to use a certain method and when not to use it. Never said you could not pull a tree over. 

I.e. would it be very professional if I took a 50/50 chance of cutting a tree with a rope and truck or would it be better to pull up a bucket truck and cut the top out and drop the spar in which i reduced my chances of destroying a customers property by 45 - 50%. What I was really getting at, is there are many guys "in the biz" without the proper equipment so they take chances of cutting that tree with a rope and truck as opposed to climbing it or using a bucket truck. When those guys have problems it makes us all look bad. That is not being professional. I am sure everyone has had some problems from time to time but it is when the same set of guys keep making the same mistake, I think that is unprofessional. They are not making the right choices of getting trees on the ground. That is not to say if you have the equipment that you are a professional either. One of the biggest hacks in my area has the nicest equipment you could imagine. Tears more ???? up than you can believe. I love it cause his ex-customers love us when we show up.

At any rate, do what you want. You obviously missed my point. It was not a point in which you can disagree or agree. So thanks for pissing me off and getting me going.


----------



## Timberhauler

teamtree said:


> wismer...do you no how to read....
> 
> being a professional means knowing when to use a certain method and when not to use it. Never said you could not pull a tree over.
> 
> I.e. would it be very professional if I took a 50/50 chance of cutting a tree with a rope and truck or would it be better to pull up a bucket truck and cut the top out and drop the spar in which i reduced my chances of destroying a customers property by 45 - 50%. What I was really getting at, is there are many guys "in the biz" without the proper equipment so they take chances of cutting that tree with a rope and truck as opposed to climbing it or using a bucket truck. When those guys have problems it makes us all look bad. That is not being professional. I am sure everyone has had some problems from time to time but it is when the same set of guys keep making the same mistake, I think that is unprofessional. They are not making the right choices of getting trees on the ground. That is not to say if you have the equipment that you are a professional either. One of the biggest hacks in my area has the nicest equipment you could imagine. Tears more ???? up than you can believe. I love it cause his ex-customers love us when we show up.
> 
> At any rate, do what you want. You obviously missed my point. It was not a point in which you can disagree or agree. So thanks for pissing me off and getting me going.



Give em' hell there new guy!!!opcorn:


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## lees trees

I have seen some good mistakes made from pulling trees with trucks. not taking about wench trucks. I mean riding the clutch, over pulling, miss communicating, oh yea hitting the truck. I was watching a competitor pull a 100 pine with a 50' anchor rope about 40' up and it had been tied back together several times. He's been in business over twenty years and thinks he's a pro.


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## Wismer

teamtree said:


> I think you have to be a "professional" or have quite a bit of experience or understanding to know when you can pull a tree over with a truck or when you need to piece it down or rig it out or call in a crane or whatever.



team tree this is what YOU said.... I disagreed, I do not believe you have to be a professional to know when you can use a truck to pull it or if you have to climb or break out the bucket truck... 

I don't think it take's a professional to look at a tree and say " hmm this tree is leaning towards the house... we should call some one with experience"... i think most of us can make a call like that.. and on the other hand.. you can look at a tree and say "this tree has a good lean away from any obstructions, there is a clear drop area, lets pull it to be sure"

now OBVIOUSLY it does not take a professional to decide what needs to be done, because the home owner has to decide and the CALL THE PROFESSIONAL if need-be

whatever man i disagree, you disagree lets leave it at that


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## teamtree

*huh...ok!*

You are superior to the rest of us. Go pull a tree down.

First of all this thread was posted on Commercial Tree Care and Climbing. I thought my audience was tree care people, not farmers and homeowners. Yes you probably can tell the difference. But you see in this industry there are many hacks out there or unprofessionals. I was commenting on the difference between a hack and a professional. I thought I was talking amongst other tree care professionals. I thought I was commenting on professionalism vs. unprofessionalism. 

Sorry for bruising your fragile ego buddy.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

teamtree said:


> I thought I was commenting on professionalism vs. unprofessionalism.
> 
> Sorry for bruising your fragile ego buddy.



How about pro vs non-pro. Unprofessional implies a pro operating in a substandard manner, nonprofessional infers a lack of experience.

Just to split hairs.

I've seen a few unskilled and underskilled people get in trouble trying to fight the lean with a vehicle, the force of leverage against the line exceeds the weight of the truck 

One funny one was where the home-owner tried to yank some taxus out with the stationwagon, pulling the rear end clean off


----------



## Wismer

TreeCo said:


> Wrong! .........and dangerorusly wrong. There is a lot more to safe tree felling than hooking a truck to a tree and sticking a saw into it.....even if the tree is leaning away from the house.



Your are absolutly right treeco, I'm sorry if i did not make it clear, now i am not saying anyone should go out and do it, but with the right amount of experience (not necessarily a professional) and the right tools, some people can do their own removals, as long as there are not too sketchy, without having to call in some one of "pro" status

I apologize if i was not clear in this whole thing, I am by no means saying go out and hook to a tree and take it down. I am also not trying to discredit professionals... the world NEEDS professionals.. there is endless scenarios where professionals need to come in and do safe, quality jobs (although i understand just cause you have a truck that says "someone's tree service" doesn';t mean you are a professional.) I'm not saying i can do anythiing because i live on a farm (far from it infact) I know when it comes to felling and treework, I am vastly inferior in terms of skills from most of you boys, I am here to LEARN and have some fun.


Cheers,

Craig


----------



## Can-Do-It

*Pulling Trees with Winch*

I agree with the general idea, except I use a 9,000 lb. winch mounted on the front of my chip truck. I prefer the winch over a truck because of the constant and controllable pull and speed of the winch. 

If the tree is not accessible to the truck then I setup redirects using pulleys attached to other trees and then back to the winch sitting in a side yard or drive way. The final redirect angal coming back to the winch can be adjusted by using a 20' chain ( pully attached to the end), either by shorting or longating the chain length.

Generally before using the winch I remove all limbs that are weighted in the opposite direction of the pull. 3/4 bull rope is attached at top of tree or stub. 

Notch the tree no more than 1/3 and apply the pulling force. The amount of pull needed should reflect the amount of lean. 

I've used this methed to remove a 70' pine with a 7' lean from center.

Word of caution: Always, always chuck the truck tires.


----------



## Can-Do-It

*Knowledgable Advice*

I posted a reply on how I use a winch to fall trees. 

That was knowledgeable advice learned thru this web page from it's senior members and applied experience over the past several years.

One of the hardest things to do is tell someone that he or she is doing something a wrong way. Specially if they been doing it there way for several years. But please people read between the lines of what the senior people of this is web page have been saying. Don't use a truck to pull a tree down with.

Use a winch(850.00), block and tackle(400.00) or other equipment item that have manageable pulling force.

A guy here in Columbia was toping a tree using his pickup. Instead of the top being pulled out of the tree ...... he was pulled out of the tree. Thats right the wrong rope was tied to the truck.

Several years ago I used my chip truck to pull a large oak over. Everything went fine. The problem was when I was coiling the rope up and found that two strands of the rope had broken during the pulling process. Was I lucky or what. The next day a new winch was installed on the truck.

Knowledgeable advice.

Have a safe and blessed day,


----------



## ropensaddle

Can-Do-It said:


> I posted a reply on how I use a winch to fall trees.
> 
> That was knowledgeable advice learned thru this web page from it's senior members and applied experience over the past several years.
> 
> One of the hardest things to do is tell someone that he or she is doing something a wrong way. Specially if they been doing it there way for several years. But please people read between the lines of what the senior people of this is web page have been saying. Don't use a truck to pull a tree down with.
> 
> Use a winch(850.00), block and tackle(400.00) or other equipment item that have manageable pulling force.
> 
> A guy here in Columbia was toping a tree using his pickup. Instead of the top being pulled out of the tree ...... he was pulled out of the tree. Thats right the wrong rope was tied to the truck.
> 
> Several years ago I used my chip truck to pull a large oak over. Everything went fine. The problem was when I was coiling the rope up and found that two strands of the rope had broken during the pulling process. Was I lucky or what. The next day a new winch was installed on the truck.
> 
> Knowledgeable advice.
> 
> Have a safe and blessed day,


Yes I am a winch man but my winch
is much more powerful and pto faster if needed and on a bucket with air
brakes I usually can uproot a 20 inch oak but that is at the farm as I don't
want to grind stump. My winch does best at twenty feet up as if you get a good pull at that point that is most times all the pull needed but if more pull is needed it pulls faster at that height than in top. Rope and pick up is just the opposite as they need all the pull they can get.


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## John Ellison

Just for the sake of conversation, can anyone give me a situation where you would need a fast pull on a tree? IF, it is sound and any heavy side lean can be countered with a good line/anchor.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

John Ellison said:


> Just for the sake of conversation, can anyone give me a situation where you would need a fast pull on a tree?



The only time I've had to drop a tree fast is when we had time constraints, like closed road, or between recesses at a school


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## clearance

John Ellison said:


> Just for the sake of conversation, can anyone give me a situation where you would need a fast pull on a tree? IF, it is sound and any heavy side lean can be countered with a good line/anchor.



I can, pulling over big cottonwoods that are leaning two ways. If you use a Tirfor or let up when you are using a truck, they fall exactly where they want. Doesn't matter how much holding wood you leave opposite, it will be rippped off, weak wood, heavy tree. Pulling them over backwards in the opposite of the lean works, any other way you are asking for trouble. Yard on the biatch and yard hard and fast.


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## lees trees

I bet most cutters have pulled with trucks, just a short cut seems faster, not better or safer. too many variables, sloppy


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> I bet most cutters have pulled with trucks, just a short cut seems faster, not better or safer. too many variables, sloppy



Sloppy??? Not so, well thought out, double checked and proper. You'd best stay away from it, not competent.


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## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> I bet most cutters have pulled with trucks, just a short cut seems faster, not better or safer. too many variables, sloppy



Well the only time I have got in trouble felling a tree was not
using a truck or equipment. I want enough pull, I now have a winch
that is capable of snapping the tree, I of course don't recommend pulling
that hard but it is nice to know I have that reserve! Grcs does not hold a 
candle to my winch and most important I know my cable is strong enough
to pull the tree without fail. I have pulled thousands of trees over never
with accident and as I said only time had a problem was doing it by hand
not enough pull set down on bar! I however did not panic and got another 
rope in it and pulled over with truck. Professional is using the tools you
have wisely not having every tool I can do it both ways but do prefer
a pto winch to back up my plan!!!!


----------



## ropensaddle

John Ellison said:


> Just for the sake of conversation, can anyone give me a situation where you would need a fast pull on a tree? IF, it is sound and any heavy side lean can be countered with a good line/anchor.


Well now what are you going to anchor a 60 inch sweetgum with?
I can do the same thing by getting my winch to pull from the off lean side
a little and I know it is going away from house powerline or any other
object I wish to miss. The fast part is I am watching what is going on
while in pull if hinge wood fails I can horse it clear also some people have
said as slack gets in cable they are fearful they will lose control, my winch
is fast enough to prevent slack but the control is actually at the cut.
I also can bring up the whole tree if it is in a hole and facilitates faster
clean up ,and on the off chance I get on a underground stream and get
buried I don't have to call a wrecker as I am equipped, and a grcs won't
pull a 28000 gvw bucket out!!!!!


----------



## lees trees

not talking about winches on your truck I like those. I think riding the clutch pulling with the truck is putting variables in the already dangerous situation. you know is the tree live or dead is it softwood or hardwood leaning, rotten,wind with us or against us. is the truck heavy enough, Strong enough, is running good how driving is he gonna over pull the dead tree, what he can't hear with the motor running I thought you said go not no. tires are slippin. is that when back up and git a run at it?:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> not talking about winches on your truck I like those. I think riding the clutch pulling with the truck is putting variables in the already dangerous situation. you know is the tree live or dead is it softwood or hardwood leaning, rotten,wind with us or against us. is the truck heavy enough, Strong enough, is running good how driving is he gonna over pull the dead tree, what he can't hear with the motor running I thought you said go not no. tires are slippin. is that when back up and git a run at it?:hmm3grin2orange:


Ok I still feel if you instruct your man to get a pull before you start back cut and kill in gear if manual and then get out and pull rope by hand to finish it would be better than relying on a ground man to pull with a block.I have used trucks to get pull but usually automatic so a steady pull can be obtained.


----------



## ropensaddle

A grcs would probably be a fine choice also but if you don't have
one that does not mean you are not a pro it means you are not rich!


----------



## joesawer

If you need a faster pull than your pulling system can provide, you can hang a weight in the middle of your line before it is pulled tight. This will give a steady pull as the tree moves forward. Until the ballast hits the ground anyway.
I have used this method when working by myself (or with help I didn't trust) more than once.


----------



## ropensaddle

joesawer said:


> If you need a faster pull than your pulling system can provide, you can hang a weight in the middle of your line before it is pulled tight. This will give a steady pull as the tree moves forward. Until the ballast hits the ground anyway.
> I have used this method when working by myself (or with help I didn't trust) more than once.



Never had to but can understand the theory did you use
a motor block? I trust my help because they know I will
break bad if they do anything stupid


----------



## joesawer

ropensaddle said:


> Never had to but can understand the theory did you use
> a motor block? I trust my help because they know I will
> break bad if they do anything stupid



I used a 16' x 28" diameter saw log the last time. It was tied to a 3/4 inch swedged skidder mainline. In residential work i have often used rounds from another tree. It doesn't take much weight to put a big pull on the tree. You would be amazed at how hard it is just to get them off the ground, and the straighter the line is the more pull they have.


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## clearance

TreeCo said:


> I don't think pulling a tree using a manual trans is a good idea. Riding the clutch is not acceptable. There are enough dangers pulling trees without introducing a manual trans into the picture.
> 
> 
> I've always used 3/4 ton 4 wheel drives with auto trans.
> 
> I've also done some nice pulls using the chipper truck and the boom truck and they have Allison 545 Automatics.



Low range works great. Its best to get a bit of tension on the rope first (a bit) and then block the wheels, so it can't roll back. I have never actually done it with an automatic. No need to ride the clutch, just wait for the signal from the faller and drive away.


----------



## lees trees

ropensaddle said:


> Ok I still feel if you instruct your man to get a pull before you start back cut and kill in gear if manual and then get out and pull rope by hand to finish it would be better than relying on a ground man to pull with a block.I have used trucks to get pull but usually automatic so a steady pull can be obtained.



I like what your saying THE TRUCK IS NOT MOVING, AN ANCHOR. the torqe converter in a auto will get hot and let you down


----------



## 2muchstuff

It is a good idea for safety. A pick -up is a great tool and if you cant use it safely you shouldnt be cutting trees.

It is best to face the tree and use reverse this way you have clear view. The leverage is far better since it forces traction rather than lift.


----------



## lees trees

is it possible to loose traction, how many pounds of pull forward how many backwards, on clay? sand? grass? I don't think any one knows at least with rope and saddle's wench you know that you have 8000 or 12000lbs of line pull. hay I just thought is the grass wet? Don't think I've never pulled a tree with a truck. Its just not consistent


----------



## teamtree

Well...If all my competitors would stop pulling over trees and customers are willing to pay, I would be glad to piece them all down (climbing or bucket). 

For the most part, we take risks all the time in this industry. It is the nature of the business. We all take risks everyday. Anyone that says otherwise is a liar. Some reduce the risk as much as possible. 

Are you saying you never used a rope to pull a tree or never used a rope on a truck?


----------



## teamtree

Getting back to my point earlier...you need to be a professional and assess the situation. 

If you assess the situation you should look at the ground conditions (is it wet, muddy, sandy, loose soil). Maybe a winch would work better in these conditions. Maybe you can get a redirect and have the truck going downhill to reduce of the risk of the vehicle getting pulled. 

Again, IMO, the method you use to pull the tree is secondary to the cutting technique and communication between cutter and driver. I have learned that the cutting is the most important thing in the whole process. If you get your notch wrong or cut through your holding wood your chances of succeeding are drastically reduced. 

But as long as I assess the situation and address all the issues, I will continue to use a pick up truck to pull trees over. I like to work smarter than harder. 

Furthermore, I feel by using a truck I can use this method to cut trees safer than either climbing or using a bucket. I am sure I will get many comments about this but it is my opinion. 

I would rather pay for a new house than deal with a death of an employee. 

I know you can get killed on the ground as well but if you reduce the # of people in the equation and the number of cuts it is safer. One cut and one person in the drop zone. We use plenty of rope and get everyone clear. 

I have ground guys that constantly walk into the drop zone without looking up while I am in the bucket. If I don't see them all I will not make the cut. Even if they are at the other truck getting a drink. I just don't want to get anyone killed or badly hurt. I have come to expect this and make sure they are looking up when I cut. We try real hard to be safety minded.

Anyway. I like the truck thing and I will use it whenever the situation calls for it. I will use a winch and other methods. 

I don't think it is sloppy at all. I think it is smarter and safer if done properly.


----------



## clearance

TreeCo said:


> I often rig a truck pull with a 2/1 mechanical advantage.
> 
> Make no mistake. Pulling with a truck is a big stakes game! Minor mistakes equal thousands of pounds of pull.



Thats right, it is a big deal, best leave it for the men if you don't like it.


----------



## lees trees

Well it sounds like if you can save time and money if you take some chances. :monkey:


----------



## John464

I use a truck on back leaners when I can to drop a spar or a whole tree. If I have 4 guys with a tag line and I don't think they have enough muscle to pull and its a clear shot to drop the tree with additional force. Then we achive the addition force by either a come a long or a truck. If you do not atleast consider the additional force you are not thinking efficiently. 

the name of the game on removals is to get them done as efficiently and as safely as you can. Trying to be too safe will dampen your efficiency and trying to be too efficient(in a hurry) will dampen your safety.The proffesional knows how to walk the thin line of both safety and efficiency. The more experienced you get the more tricks you hold in your bag of confidence.


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> Well it sounds like if you can save time and money if you take some chances. :monkey:



Nothing is left to chance, it is impossible to cover all the variables though. I prefer the term "highly calculated risk", sounds better than chance. TeamTree makes some good points, less risk to the guys, I like that.


----------



## teamtree

answer these questions...

do you take a chance when you climb into the tree?

do you take a chance when you climb into the bucket?

can you eliminate all risks, no matter how it is cut?

what are we talking about here, bodily injury or property damage? strike doesn't matter...still think it is safer if the situation calls for a pull

at any rate, I think it is important skill that we (my company) have in our tool bag. I will continue to use it as a technique in cutting trees if the situation allows for it to be done. 

I am out on this subject.


----------



## Timberhauler

I have pulled more trees down with either the truck or the skid loader than I care to count...Here are the main factors...

1..Is there room for the tree to fall safely...I've been falling trees many years,and lots of times I'll fall trees into tighter spaces than alot of guys will,but that's beside the point.
2..Escape path...One of the most important
3...How much lean are you pulling against...Any decent pro will know,if there is too much side lean,or too much in the opposite direction,then it's better to climb it and get some weight out....
4...You need good ropes..
5...It's a matter of simple physics...If the tree is standing without too much weight one way or the other and you are able to get a rope in the very top of the tree,and I mean the very top...Say 15 feet below where it meets the sky,then you have huge leverage over that tree.I've seen hundreds,maybe thousands where a couple of strong guys could have pulled it down by hand...So the bottom line is if you're not dealing with too much weight leaning one way or the other and you get a rope as high up in the tree as is safe to pull,then I would have to say the risks involved are much lower than if a climber goes up it and brings it down in peices..As long as the person doing the cutting knows what he's doing....I have also seen many humorous situations where pick-up pulling was involved....Usually it involves people who should not be doing it in the first place..The first biggest mistake is not placing the rope high enough..The second being the truck wasn't on a surface where it could get maximum traction....I assumed most everyone in this particular forum either ran their own business or did this every single day...So it's not very wise for a weekender or hobbyist to come in and tell a business owner he's taking too much of a risk..A smart business owner is well aware of what can happen every time he makes a move.


----------



## Timberhauler

lees trees said:


> is it possible to loose traction, how many pounds of pull forward how many backwards, on clay? sand? grass? I don't think any one knows at least with rope and saddle's wench you know that you have 8000 or 12000lbs of line pull. hay I just thought is the grass wet? Don't think I've never pulled a tree with a truck. Its just not consistent



That is another variable to consider...If one attempts this where there is no traction,then it's just plain stupid..I've never lost traction using a truck,because we simply won't use a truck where there is no traction...Two weeks ago I fell six poplar trees that were over 36 inches in diameter.Every single tree had an obstacle to clear,a couple of them had a very tight space to fall into.We pulled every single tree with the truck.The particular truck used has a manual tranny,it has over 150,000 miles and it still has the original clutch...I'm gonna laugh about that comment for as long as I can remember it.A good climber or faller with enough years of experience is not going to do anything stupid...I know many very well established tree services and many good fallers.I can't think of one who would think using a truck is too risky..Mind as long as all the variables are in his favor.


----------



## lees trees

18 years ago my little company took over a large removal from a national line clearing co. that sounds like aspl... anyway the reason I got the job was they were pulling a large pine away from a 4 lane hwy truck over pulls tree splits cutter gets thrown into traffic he lives DOT hires us. YES THERES RISK IN TAKING A SHOWER I SAY LIMIT YOUR RISK. you can climb without lines is it wise? maybe someone can show me a osha or ISA publication or recommendation so I might learn the proper way pull trees with road vehicles thanks in advance Lee


----------



## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> 18 years ago my little company took over a large removal from a national line clearing co. that sounds like aspl... anyway the reason I got the job was they were pulling a large pine away from a 4 lane hwy truck over pulls tree splits cutter gets thrown into traffic he lives DOT hires us. YES THERES RISK IN TAKING A SHOWER I SAY LIMIT YOUR RISK. you can climb without lines is it wise? maybe someone can show me a osha or ISA publication or recommendation so I might learn the proper way pull trees with road vehicles thanks in advance Lee



Well if they would start paying better and quit alienating
their old timers and causing them to quit stuff like that would
not happen. I have worked for line clearance over twenty years
and they keep promoting friends and family sometimes with little
or no experience put them in and get them certified and sorry
but certified is good but does not trump twenty years experience.
I once knew a guy that had a notebook every where he went and
that was his nickname 'notebook' he never really had done an honest 
day and got promoted to supervisor and then he thought he knew
what to do on a tree I was planning to fell. He came out and said
I will show you how to fell a tree and I watched this certified idiot
fall it straight into 3phaze and knock half the town out of lights.


----------



## clearance

Good story Rope, I hear ya. Lees Trees, the accident you speak of was a barberchair, I would surmise bad communication between the faller and the guy in the truck. Remember what you have been told here, and this won't happen to you. I know a guy who worked for Orange who was hit by a chair when the truck yarded the tree before he finished his back cut as well. If someone crashes a Corvette because they are drunk, does this make Corvettes dangerous?


----------



## Grace Tree

Who was driving the corvette?
Phil


----------



## teamtree

Lees...i am sorry I said I am done on this subject. You still have not answered my question. You said you have never pulled a tree over with a truck. Have you pulled a tree using any other method?

I still believe using a truck is a perfectly acceptable method. I have never had any problems. Done it hundreds of times and will continue to do so. I have made the decision to rig out many trees when that is what the situation calls for. I will continue to do that as well. I will stick to what I know and I am sure I will be fine. I am sure the same can be said for you. And I am sure people will continue to have accidents doing tree work.

In the case you speak of...it sounds like poor communication, stupidity, poor assessment of situation, failure to plan the work and work the plan. Can't say i have ever had one barber chair due to it being pulled by a truck but then again, I know how to set up the cut so it won't happen. I also communicate with the driver and make sure he understands the signals. IMO, if you barberchair during a pull, you have seriously ????ed up. Point blank.

If you forget to put yoursecondary tie in during a cut while climbing and you cut through your climbing rope....would it be a consensus that the climber ????ed up. Point blank. 

So are we really talking about human error in 97% of accidents? Forget about methods.


----------



## lees trees

teamtree you misunderstood me. in my years of cutting trees I have pulled trees with a truck manual and auto I will use any thing to my advantage to bring down a tree I'm going to complete the job yea yea.


----------



## joesawer

lees trees said:


> teamtree you misunderstood me. in my years of cutting trees I have pulled trees with a truck manual and auto I will use any thing to my advantage to bring down a tree I'm going to complete the job yea yea.



WTF???? You witch and moan. Then come off with an answer like that.
I worked for a pretty big line clearance co many years ago. It was against their rule to even tie a rope to a truck for an anchor. They were trying to make everything idiot proof. Well I am not an idiot and I know how to drive a truck without overheating the torque converter, burning the clutch, breaking the rope, etc,etc. Further more I can recognize these qualities in someone else. If I don't have confidence in their abilities I will not use them in an area above their capabilities. 
You sound like you have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the idiot proof BS that is being made into law and crippling this country.


----------



## lees trees

joesawer said:


> WTF???? You witch and moan. Then come off with an answer like that.
> I worked for a pretty big line clearance co many years ago. It was against their rule to even tie a rope to a truck for an anchor. They were trying to make everything idiot proof. Well I am not an idiot and I know how to drive a truck without overheating the torque converter, burning the clutch, breaking the rope, etc,etc. Further more I can recognize these qualities in someone else. If I don't have confidence in their abilities I will not use them in an area above their capabilities.
> You sound like you have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the idiot proof BS that is being made into law and crippling this country.



ok smartguy why was it against their rule to tie to the truck at all. not every hourly employee is as smart as you tell me how long does it take to smoke a clutch or torconverter. basicly pushing your luck


----------



## lees trees

clearance said:


> Good story Rope, I hear ya. Lees Trees, the accident you speak of was a barberchair, I would surmise bad communication between the faller and the guy in the truck. Remember what you have been told here, and this won't happen to you. I know a guy who worked for Orange who was hit by a chair when the truck yarded the tree before he finished his back cut as well. If someone crashes a Corvette because they are drunk, does this make Corvettes dangerous?



sorry to just now getting back to you. you would surmise right, communication, maybe driver not knowing strength of pull, maybe the cutter didn't cut it enough, still a bad situation. preacher-seat is what we call them. I chain a trunk when necessary. trees are the corvette and the drunk is the truck :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## joesawer

lees trees said:


> ok smartguy why was it against their rule to tie to the truck at all. not every hourly employee is as smart as you tell me how long does it take to smoke a clutch or torconverter. basicly pushing your luck



Read my post again. The part about making things idiot proof in particular.
If you don't know what a barber chair is and don't know how to drive a truck without over heating the torque converter, or smoking the clutch, then forgive me. You are absolutely right. You should never, ever, under any circumstances pull a tree with a truck.


----------



## lees trees

joesawer said:


> Read my post again. The part about making things idiot proof in particular.
> If you don't know what a barber chair is and don't know how to drive a truck without over heating the torque converter, or smoking the clutch, then forgive me. You are absolutely right. You should never, ever, under any circumstances pull a tree with a truck.



you ever hear that its the easy ones that kill you. as a pro you have to idiot proof as much as possible and when you push your luck recognize it. not unlike running a saw with a broken chain break or hauling a load overweight can be done but you should know your really pushing your luck.


----------



## joesawer

I don't push my luck. Counting on luck will get you killed.
Now you are trying to argue both sides. 
Using a truck in a safe responsible manner, by some one who is capable of using it is not pushing your luck. It can be the safest and most efficient way to do the job. I refuse to make my work idiot proof, because I am not an idiot.


----------



## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> you ever hear that its the easy ones that kill you. as a pro you have to idiot proof as much as possible and when you push your luck recognize it. not unlike running a saw with a broken chain break or hauling a load overweight can be done but you should know your really pushing your luck.


Hey there feller just how are you pulling over trees
you are quick to point out a truck being a no no !
I would like to know what you do to insure enough pull?
The main safety issue with a truck would be not using
a strong enough rope or cable and puttin an idiot behind
the wheel. Idiot behind the saw or idiot supervising job!
I have said this once but just know that the only time I
have ever got in trouble felling a tree was by, not, using a 
truck or equipment to pull it over. I don't know who you think 
you are but you have not enough experience if you don't
use equipment.


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> I bet most cutters have pulled with trucks, just a short cut seems faster, not better or safer. too many variables, sloppy



Now you say you have pulled trees with a truck, what a complete tool, waste of time mutt, get lost.


----------



## lees trees

ropensaddle said:


> Hey there feller just how are you pulling over trees
> you are quick to point out a truck being a no no !
> I would like to know what you do to insure enough pull?
> The main safety issue with a truck would be not using
> a strong enough rope or cable and puttin an idiot behind
> the wheel. Idiot behind the saw or idiot supervising job!
> I have said this once but just know that the only time I
> have ever got in trouble felling a tree was by, not, using a
> truck or equipment to pull it over. I don't know who you think
> you are but you have not enough experience if you don't
> use equipment.



I'm just treeman at times with as many 7 3man crews but usually 2 3man crews with one pulled muscle wc claim and no ins. claims in twenty years. plenty of equipment ment to do the job. maybe I need more experience sure always tiring to get better


----------



## lees trees

clearance said:


> Now you say you have pulled trees with a truck, what a complete tool, waste of time mutt, get lost.



nice guy


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> nice guy



Thank you.


----------



## teamtree

Clearance...i think you are right about lees....he sure is wishy washy on his stance. 

I can certainly understand the guy may have plenty of experience and know how. He is certainly successful in business. He can't argue his point in any fashion other than to make snippy comments. 

But hey we have all met people who if you do not agree with them then you are an idiot to them.

I am certainly not an idiot and I think that pulling trees is the smart thing to do in many cases, especially with a pick up truck. It is basic common sense. Say you have a 70' ft. tree with a slight lean. You can probably notch and drop with just wedges but since the homeowner is paying you to drop the tree away from the house you take 5 minutes and install a guide rope about 50' feet in the tree. {Say the tree is 5 tons. You have a 9500 pound truck. You do the math. Do you have enough leverage to pull the tree. Assuming all the conditions are suitable for a pull (i.e. dry ground, not going down hill, etc.) } Instead of two guys pulling...you take 1 minute and tie the rope on your recovery hooks....ok...you get the communication thing down and start cutting...get your notch in the tree....tighten the line....communicate with driver....start your back cut....install a wedge or two...cut until you have your holding wood that you desire....back off the tree...signal the driver...tree is safely on the ground. 

So Lees....are you telling me you would climb that very same tree and piece it down. Yeah that would be safer and more reliable. For being in business for 20 years and have so many crews...you sure haven't convinced me.


----------



## lees trees

teamtree said:


> Clearance...i think you are right about lees....he sure is wishy washy on his stance.
> 
> I can certainly understand the guy may have plenty of experience and know how. He is certainly successful in business. He can't argue his point in any fashion other than to make snippy comments.
> 
> I looked over everything I wrote if it comes off snippy not my intention even though I have pulled with trucks gotta be ten years ago I felt it was riskier than anchoring to a another tree and winching it over and allot of times especially on really large trees that could be thrown I will piece it down because it has to be cut up anyway and a huge tree thrown to the ground will have allot big branches under stress being even more dangerous you don't have to agree with me you run yours I'll run mine


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> teamtree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearance...i think you are right about lees....he sure is wishy washy on his stance.
> 
> I can certainly understand the guy may have plenty of experience and know how. He is certainly successful in business. He can't argue his point in any fashion other than to make snippy comments.
> 
> I looked over everything I wrote if it comes off snippy not my intention even though I have pulled with trucks gotta be ten years ago I felt it was riskier than anchoring to a another tree and winching it over and allot of times especially on really large trees that could be thrown I will piece it down because it has to be cut up anyway and a huge tree thrown to the ground will have allot big branches under stress being even more dangerous you don't have to agree with me you run yours I'll run mine
> 
> 
> 
> I spend time to explain how to do things safely, in this case a few times. Why you really got on my nerves is you didn't put your cards on the table, you called this method "sloppy" and didn't say you had used this method until well into the thread. This was very weak. Now you say a big tree thrown to the ground will have branches under stress being more dangerous. So, you have no confidence in limbing trees either, its a dangerous business, sounds like you would be better off doing something else.
Click to expand...


----------



## Timberhauler

It sounds like this is someone who took a rope,tied it from the ground as high as he could reach,then tied the rope to a 1/2 ton pickup on wet grass and they couldn't get the tree to pull over...If one considers limbing trees from the ground too dangerous,they they do not need to be limbing the tree while it's standing.


----------



## teamtree

lees...i appreciate your response....I, like clearance, felt like you were dogging us for using this method or not putting out your full stance. 

I agree with the piecing down the big ones as it will need to be cut up anyway or it may be more dangerous after it is on the ground..good point. I especially like this idea if i am taking the stump out then if you make divets close to the stump you will probably be grind that area out as well so bombing near the base of the tree is an option. Less mess by piecing it down sometimes as well, espcially on dead ones that explode when they hit the ground. 

My whole point is that you have to look at the situation and apply the proper method of getting the tree on the ground safely. There is no one way of doing every tree as there or no more than one tree in the same exact spot.

Have a good weekend.


----------



## lees trees

teamtree said:


> lees...i appreciate your response....I, like clearance, felt like you were dogging us for using this method or not putting out your full stance





wasn't dogging any one, hard to cover everything in a paragraph or two. every job my company does I look for ways to improve. I make more mistakes any of my employees past and present and I take responsibility for them also I work very hard at keeping those mistakes so small that no harm is done. and I believe that some of the techniques mentioned can have catastrophic results because I seen them and most everyone has a horror story themselves


----------



## clearance

lees trees said:


> teamtree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I work very hard at keeping those mistakes so small that no harm is done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can that be fun? I have forked up bigtime, I learned, life goes on.
Click to expand...


----------



## ropensaddle

Ok everyone we all need cranes to be safe and lees
being the concerned gent he is is ready to donate them
to us. Lees my horror story did not happen as a comealong
was not enough pull on one occasion and I hooked up a dangerous
pickup that unsafely fell tree where I wanted it. It would be great
if everyone had a helo or crane but some men in tree biz just
bought their way into it and some earned it by years of work.
I personally don't care if you use a elephant,mule,pickup,crane,
bulldozer or what just make sure it is adequate to do the job
and the rope is near twice the strength of the torque applied.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

clearance said:


> lees trees said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can that be fun? I have forked up bigtime, I learned, life goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So have I. and it has allways been from poor communications, not from how I approached the actual work.
> 
> I pull trees from time to time, but as with one handing a chainsaw, it is the exception rather then SOP.
> 
> Quite often it is a force that is over applied, breaking ropes, holding wood or having the tree go the wrong way.
> 
> In my experience, those who truck pull regularly are the ones who operate in a "cut and pray" fashion.
> 
> Though there are those who approach it with a methodical practice, anchor lines, swing lines, compression rigs or a simple pulley in the tree and an anchor on the ground.
> 
> (swing line is that practitioners word for a pretensioned line that will cause the tree to pivot away from the initial direction of fall)
Click to expand...


----------



## lees trees

ropensaddle said:


> Ok everyone we all need cranes to be safe and lees
> being the concerned gent he is is ready to donate them
> to us. Lees my horror story did not happen as a comealong
> was not enough pull on one occasion and I hooked up a dangerous
> pickup that unsafely fell tree where I wanted it. It would be great
> if everyone had a helo or crane but some men in tree biz just
> bought their way into it and some earned it by years of work.
> I personally don't care if you use a elephant,mule,pickup,crane,
> bulldozer or what just make sure it is adequate to do the job
> and the rope is near twice the strength of the torque applied.



I'm sorry I started trimming palms with spikes in 76 at 13 when the other kids were mowing the grass and after 4 years in the service I remembered that I can cut trees this was 87 bought old used junk and made it work for us even my climbing gear. never had anyone I would trust to fly a helo so I never got one. I love crane jobs but I have to rent a company for that. so I'm just working the best I can always improving. I normally agree with you rope just not this time. I understood you parked the truck and use your big winch over rolling the truck to get it down. which is better?


----------



## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> I'm sorry I started trimming palms with spikes in 76 at 13 when the other kids were mowing the grass and after 4 years in the service I remembered that I can cut trees this was 87 bought old used junk and made it work for us even my climbing gear. never had anyone I would trust to fly a helo so I never got one. I love crane jobs but I have to rent a company for that. so I'm just working the best I can always improving. I normally agree with you rope just not this time. I understood you parked the truck and use your big winch over rolling the truck to get it down. which is better?


Well my winch is, but I did not always have one and as some of these
guys on here may be starting out and not be blessed with money they
may not have one. What I am saying is using a truck as a tool wisely
does not in any way make you a hack or unprofessional !
I also have spent hours piecing down and still do when conditions
make it necessary. I will pull it over when it makes sense and I determine
it to be safer to pull down than climb or when it is productive and risks
to landscape,lines,fences,etc.are minimal. 
To me this is like using a granny stick in a pool match do you put down
the stick on high stakes game and miss the shot just to look good?
I would rather pick up the tool and win. If I have to pull a tree over
I will make certain I have enough pull and strong enough rope cable
to do it safe!


----------



## lees trees

ropensaddle said:


> Well my winch is, but I did not always have one and as some of these
> guys on here may be starting out and not be blessed with money they
> may not have one. What I am saying is using a truck as a tool wisely
> does not in any way make you a hack or unprofessional !
> I also have spent hours piecing down and still do when conditions
> make it necessary. I will pull it over when it makes sense and I determine
> it to be safer to pull down than climb or when it is productive and risks
> to landscape,lines,fences,etc.are minimal.
> To me this is like using a granny stick in a pool match do you put down
> the stick on high stakes game and miss the shot just to look good?
> I would rather pick up the tool and win. If I have to pull a tree over
> I will make certain I have enough pull and strong enough rope cable
> to do it safe!


I was hoping for a response like that. you sound from what I read as a top cutter with getting the job done safely #1. probably got 6th sense and can see problems before their dangerous thus putting your abilities above the crowd maybe a reputation if no one else can do it get rope see what he says. Over the years how many guy have you trained? of those how many now have all of your skills? one of my guys had to move and went to work for another company his name sounds like Pony any way good work ethic wanted to be the best never got hurt on my job. a few months into the other job he takes a kick back to the shoulder and ear 64 or8 stitches a little disability not to much 1st day back breaks fingers just let guard down a little. for me if I know a safer way I will recommend it and on my job-sight demand it.


----------



## ropensaddle

lees trees said:


> I was hoping for a response like that. you sound from what I read as a top cutter with getting the job done safely #1. probably got 6th sense and can see problems before their dangerous thus putting your abilities above the crowd maybe a reputation if no one else can do it get rope see what he says. Over the years how many guy have you trained? of those how many now have all of your skills? one of my guys had to move and went to work for another company his name sounds like Pony any way good work ethic wanted to be the best never got hurt on my job. a few months into the other job he takes a kick back to the shoulder and ear 64 or8 stitches a little disability not to much 1st day back breaks fingers just let guard down a little. for me if I know a safer way I will recommend it and on my job-sight demand it.


The basic skills all the people lasting more than a week usually lasted 
a year or so and learned well. I think it takes years to get the degrees
of skill mastered not unlike a black belt in karate learns more after making
that skill level. I have always prided myself knowing that no one under me
has ever been seriously hurt ever on my job in over twenty years.
I have performed the impossible for many years the ones no one
else wanted and have reached a level that stinks. I now know what
to do and am getting older lol. I have to say if I know a safer way
that the customer is willing to pay for I would be using it, and if
I say I have to have a crane, no one better climb it as it is a death 
wish! I climbed some in my youth that I would not climb today, one
in particular was a dead pine surrounded by powerlines that had
a large wood pecker hole twenty foot up that went clean through
it,and I had to climb seventy foot up to piece down to prevent
electrocution. I would not climb that tree today I did so without
a problem but I knew I was walking on thin ice but the company 
I was working for did not give me the resources ie. crane to my
disposal. That was in the early eighties and the business was different
in those times. I looked at a tree that a crane would make sense
on about a month ago and told the customer they would have to 
pay for it if they wanted me to do the job, still have not heard
but just may be the first time I get to employ one.


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## Brushwacker

I think I should share this experiance with the tree pullers.
This happened about 25 years ago in my early woodcutting days.
I had a stockpile of logs on a hill near an old abandon homestead that I'd sold to a timber buyer. The older guy that bought the logs saw a huge white oak near where the old house was and insisted we cut it because of its veneer potential, even though we insisted it probably had metal in it. Anyway he brought an 045 with a 25 inch bar next time he come for a load. My dad had a row of old farm equipment to the east of the tree he kept for parts and the tree was leaning that way and there was about 30 mph wind coming from the south. We hooked a cable up to a 930 case tractor (near 100 hp ) and was pulling it to the west. The old guy had me run the saw while he coached me through the cut. I cut for probably 30 minutes + and was not getting to the middle,so I stopped and suggested I go get my c52 homy and mount my 36inch bar to it which I did. Shortly after sinking the long bar in it, it the wood started cracking and I pulled the saw out and headed south with the old guy after signaling the tractor to pull. The tree went south to and the tractor just spun its wheels. Something kept the tree up long enough we got further west out of its way. The upper part of the tree landed on the bottom part of an old corn elevator. The top part of the elevator went down with driving force about the speed the tree was at the bottom of its fall. After it hit the ground I saw the old guys truck driver wallering on the ground near the top of the elavator like a head shot rodent. Thank God it was not what it looked like . Turned out he was grazed enough to knock him down and he had some nasty looking bruising on his side and leg and still drove home. I didn't know he was under the tree when we were cutting. So in the end we not only looked stupid we were. The other point I wanted to expose is the tree went in the least likely direction I thought it could.
I do occasionally pull a tree to this day. I would not recommend inexperianced fallers to get out and do it. If thats what you are going to do get lots of experiance felling first and start with smaller trees first. Remember pulling to soon could cause deadly barber chairs etc, even with small trees.


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## teamtree

thanks for getting in on this subject brushwacker....

not trying to bust your chops but you confirmed several of my points....you did not read the situation very well, you did not plan the work and work the plan and you failed to communicate to everyone on the jobsite. I am sure you learned from the experience and took it with you the rest of your career.

How far up in the tree was the rope? Did you have good leverage?

Did you have an even strip of holding wood (from prior inspection)?

Was your plan communicated to the driver? I believe ansi standards require anyone not involved in the procedure to be twice the distance of the target tree away.

I think there was a lady up around Muncie that got killed in an accident as she was within distance of the tree and it fell back on the house and smashed the deck she was on. If they would have insisted to her to stand back they would have prevented a death. 

We ask they homeowners to get out of the house and make sure their kids are in a safe place. 



Even in if the wind was blowning as hard as you say, it was probably enough to make it a no go on that particular day. It is possible for the wind to swirl and gust and most definitely is too inconsistent to count on helping you. 

So as I have stated before the problem with pulling trees is user error not the methodology. I still say if it is done correctly and the proper assessment of the situation is made and the tree is ok to be pulled, the worked is planned and properly communicated, this is a safe way to get a tree on the ground.


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## lees trees

teamtree said:


> thanks for getting in on this subject brushwacker....
> 
> 
> 
> So as I have stated before the problem with pulling trees is user error not the methodology. I still say if it is done correctly and the proper assessment of the situation is made and the tree is ok to be pulled, the worked is planned and properly communicated, this is a safe way to get a tree on the ground.


I probably should have asked earlier here goes. what if you cain't get any wheeled vehicle near the leaning tree what method will you use?


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## Grace Tree

lees trees said:


> I probably should have asked earlier here goes. what if you cain't get any wheeled vehicle near the leaning tree what method will you use?



I use mules and bungee cord. If the tree goes the wrong way it will sometimes fling the mules in the air taking the homeowners mind off the damage.
Works for me,
Phil


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## teamtree

If pulling the tree with a truck or winch is not an option. Eepending on the size of the tree, I would say I would use a rope puller or portable winch or grcs or maybe set up my Tree Pulling Kit from Sherrill that I learned how to use at an ArborMaster Precision Felling Seminar.

But I would say if I can't get a truck in to pull it...there probably isn't room to fell it but i can think of some instances where you could fell it but not get a truck in there. So I would say we would climb those trees and piece them down. 

When I go look at a tree for an estimate or to write up a work order I usually go through a checklist. I look at the tree and the shape it is in, I look at the hazards and obstacles that I need to work around, I look at whether it is a climber or bucket or both, I look at many things to help me come up with an initial work plan. I look at the risk of the method of getting the tree down so if the tree is not a good tree to be pulled (i.e. not too much lean in opposite direction, lots of good holding wood, large landing zone, ground conditions, safe work area to work, etc.). But ultimately, if I think it is risker to pull it than climb it or use bucket, i do the later. I only use the pull method if all the variables can be managed. I don't like pulling heavy leaners and trees with alot of rot as those variables are harder to manage. I would say i use a truck to make sure the tree goes where I want it more so than I do to make a tree go somewhere it isn't going to go. For example, if the tree where hollow i probably would not pull it as the risk would be too great. I have cut plenty of hollow trees doing TSI work and they can be tricky. I am sure everyone has seen trees do some funky things on the stump. 

As I said before, I pre-qualify a tree for pulling. It is not my rule of thumb to do that first. I do what the situation calls for. I believe many people in the industry rely on this method to get a tree on the ground as they do not take the time to learn good rigging techniques. I am just defending the position that there is a time and place for pulling trees with a truck, but it needs to be thought out carefully and the work should be planned and communicated before you start.


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## lees trees

teamtree with all those tree felling techniques you still prefer pulling with a truck? are your employees able to this also without you there? I think it might be OK for small wood those mules won't last forever. thanks


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## joesawer

Small Wood said:


> I use mules and bungee cord. If the tree goes the wrong way it will sometimes fling the mules in the air taking the homeowners mind off the damage.
> Works for me,
> Phil



LOL, Now that right there is funny, I don't care who ya are.


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## zcsmatt

*Tree Machine did me good*

I've always been interested in trees but lacked knowledge. I found Tree Machine on arboristsite.com just to get some firewood. Now 24 hours later I have nearly a rick of wood and a rekindled interest in how trees are dismantled. Great website. Thanks for the wood!

Indianapolis


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## a_lopa

Nothin to it:chainsawguy:


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## teamtree

lees trees.....yes, i feel it is a quick and safe way to get a tree on the ground. I am sorry but it does take a little more time to hook up a pulling system or winch to another tree or something that is stable. And in some cases does not offer any For instance today we cut a 18" dbh / 55' pine tree it was pretty straight maybe a lean in the direction i wanted it to fall, pretty much dead (little wind sail). There was a steep drop off in the opposite direction that would have made the clean up a bear. The tree weighed approximately 4000 pounds. I installed a pull rope in the tree and cut my notch. I had my assistant apply some pressure to the rope with a JD tractor which is 4X4 and weighs approximately 4000 pounds with loader and weights. I intalled the rope approximately 30' feet into the tree. I instructed my assistant to pull when i gave him the signal. I started my back cut and installed a wedge and finished my back cut and hit the wedge a few times backed off and signaled for Seth to pull. The tree went exactly where i wanted it to and we worked in the shade while cleaning it up. If the tree was a little bigger i would have used a 4x4 3500 or if bigger I would have used a 12k winch on dump truck so on and so on. Or let's say a power line was in the background that may be an issue...well I would say we would use a bucket truck or a climber and limbed it out leaving on the spar to be dropped. 

To answer your question, my workers know how to do this but I do 90% of all the cutting. I have a sub-contract climber/operator who I will let cut any tree any time as he taught me much of what I know. 

Once again, I am not advocating that is ok to pull any tree any time. I am saying that in some cases, rather than using a climber or bucket, it is safer to pull a tree. If the tree is a heavy leaner, I really weigh out all other options before pulling it back up over center. Again, for instance, we had a heavy leaner along a fairway and the customer did not want the tree to hit the fairway. We used a bucket truck to take off several limbs and some weight but we could not reach the top 1/3 of the tree so we installed a guide rope. The tree was dead and not safe for a climber to go up to the top of the tree. The tree was about 100' tall and about 34" dbh. Using the steps describe earlier, we had two people hold traffic along the road, one guy cutting and I was on the tractor and one guy was on the golf course watching for golfers and workers). The notch was cut and I applied pressure to the rope. The cutter made his backcut and installed a couple of wedges. He finished his back cut and pulled his saw out and got in a safe position. He signaled for me to pull and the tree went where we wanted it too. So we did not feel it was necessary to put a climber in danger or any safer to use two cranes or whatever method one may suggest. We did it in safest possible manner, in our opinions and we got the job done safely without any undue risk other than the tree falling on to the fairway. I would rather fix turf then tell someone their spouse and father is dead because he climbed a tree that he really did not need to climb.


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## lees trees

I do appreciate your taking the time to describe your method and your reason for it. its a big responsibility to keep every one safe so you cut again tomorrow. I know you take that seriously me too. For me its harder to pull with a rolling vehicle


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## teamtree

I can understand why you have concerns about a using a rolling vehicle. I think if you saw what I pull you would say...oh...that is no big deal. I don't like to take risks, especially where it may hurt my business if the "what if" happens. I am usually the guy in the group saying "yeah, but what if" and then we work a little harder to do it a safer way. If I had a tree that is bigger than the vehicle then I would tie off and use a winch on the big truck or piece it down. I would never put myself in a position where if the tree started to go the wrong way, it would pull the truck. As I said, I like to manage the risk down to an acceptable level and make sure we are doing it the safest way possible. Alot of times my bid is for the safer method and someone else will come in and pull a tree I would piece down. They would then cut the limbs and throw them on back of a truck and spend three days cleaning up what we would do in a half day. Those are the guys that drive me nuts in this business. They take the risks I wouldn't and lots of times they don't have problems. But it only takes one time to be out of business.


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## murphy4trees

I have a seperate lowering device, the old style port a wrap that stays on a big shackle in the back of the cab of a 4x4 p/u w/ auto trans....
It takes about 30 seconds to snap that onto the the pindle hitch and take some wraps... Even then I really only like two of the many people I work with to be driving... the danger is that if an inexperienced driver takes off too soon they can barber chair the trunk or rip out the top... I generally set my pull lines mighty high, especially on backleaners... I'll use a 200' piece of true blue, a 1/2" double braid or 5/8 double braid to pull with... the later two don't have much other use these days, and the former is about to be retired...

I Also prefer 4x4 low on dry pavement... any question about traction and I won;t hesitate to set up a 3:1 z rig and then pull with the truck... And I often will use a redirect block and long rope to get the trck on blacktop or pulling downhill etc... 

When all the right equipment is handy it is mighty fast and effective, but you have to know how to cut a clean and proper sized hinge and work with people that know what they are doing... Otherwise you can get in trouble... I've rigged out spars rather than pull with trucks when I had an inexperienced crew and didn;t like the conditions for pulling with a truck...


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## ropensaddle

murphy4trees said:


> I have a seperate lowering device, the old style port a wrap that stays on a big shackle in the back of the cab of a 4x4 p/u w/ auto trans....
> It takes about 30 seconds to snap that onto the the pindle hitch and take some wraps... Even then I really only like two of the many people I work with to be driving... the danger is that if an inexperienced driver takes off too soon they can barber chair the trunk or rip out the top... I generally set my pull lines mighty high, especially on backleaners... I'll use a 200' piece of true blue, a 1/2" double braid or 5/8 double braid to pull with... the later two don't have much other use these days, and the former is about to be retired...
> 
> I Also prefer 4x4 low on dry pavement... any question about traction and I won;t hesitate to set up a 3:1 z rig and then pull with the truck... And I often will use a redirect block and long rope to get the trck on blacktop or pulling downhill etc...
> 
> When all the right equipment is handy it is mighty fast and effective, but you have to know how to cut a clean and proper sized hinge and work with people that know what they are doing... Otherwise you can get in trouble... I've rigged out spars rather than pull with trucks when I had an inexperienced crew and didn;t like the conditions for pulling with a truck...



If I used rope it would be at least 3/4 a breaking rope to me is a scary 
thought. I want gear stronger than needed as if there is a mistake I want
it to be something I did or did not do ,not my choice of gear!


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## Jon Denver

Hi Yall

New to site with first post.

I have been climbing trees for 15 years and have pulled over more trees than I can count. I have even tried to pull to much with almost disasterous result. Both mishaps were with a d6 loader. First on was a monterey pine with 20 inch dia by 80 foot and a 25 degree backlean over high tensh. Eddie the loader driver got way to exited and pulled with all his might before my signal and I had not even cut more than 2 inch into my backcut. The tree barberchaired 10 feet and pivoted over my head. I dropped my saw and ran tripped and fell through a strawberry field as the tree fell 90 degrees to the fall breaking through the high tension lines, landing on the secondarys and pulling both power poles over toward each other. The high lines came down right behind me through my escape route.

The second time was with a d6 but was my fault. 140 foot high by 90 inch diamiter Eucalyptus, no exageration. My Husky 396 w/ 48 inch bar barely reached the middle on the quarter cut. The tree had major backweight. My boss at the time bought a brand new 3/4 inch 20,000 lbs arborplex and brought an old rusty steel cable as a backup. I rigged the lines so at mid rope stretch on the rope the steel cable would come taught so it was relatively equalized. The pie cut took 45 minutes and required 3 people to remove it. The backcut was an overhead cut due to the larger root crown and road cut. I quartered one side, then the other, lots of wedges, pull, pound, pull, cut, pound and then snap! The steel cable broke, tree came back on rope streach onto the wedges. I was as scarred as I have ever been in my life. I had a ground man remove the neighbors from their house, we had lots of insurance. The wedges just sunk into the wood and were only usefull to not pinch my bar. The bull rope was so streached it was half of its diamiter. I dared not have the loader pull any more. After discussing options for 20 minutes I left my saw off and probed with the tip to feel how my hinge was shaped in there and low and behold I discovered small "islands" of holding wood The trunk was so big I missed in there a few times. So I cut these off, could now get the wedges in and the tree came over, then it was time for lunch. 

In summary: pulling with heavy equipment makes it to tempting to over do it. I use my toyota most of the time now, or piece it out. Having PD insurance really helps with confidence as well. I run my own buissness now and cant afford it so now I am very conservative around houses. We will see how chicken I get on next weeks Douglass Fir removal.


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## ronnyb

We pull trees over when we can. I don't think there is anything unprofessional about it. I just don't like leaving a yard with excessive damage to the turf if I can avoid it. To me, that looks unprofessional. I've only had one bad experience pulling a tree over. It was an American elm, close to 110 feet tall, 5 foot diameter trunk, and infected with Dutch Elm disease, so the city had tagged it for removal. It was located in a side yard with a large vacant lot to drop it in. The only problem was that the tree still had 75% of its' leaves, and the wind was blowing hard from the wrong direction. We used a bucket truck to set a 3/4 inch line high in the tree, and hooked it to the bucket truck out in the vacant lot. The wind kept picking up, and I asked the boss if he really wanted to try this today. Yep. I suggested cutting a traditional notch due to the wind and the amount of pulling he would be doing with the truck. No way, bore cut it. He only allowed us to bore cut trunks over. I didn't feel that it was a good idea, and let him know that, but he's the boss. I bore cut, got out of the way and signalled to start pulling. The wind is blowing hard, the line is stretched to about half of its original diamater, and the tree isn't coming over. The boss guns the truck, gives the tree a big jerk, and the butt breaks free and slides off of the stump. The butt dug into the ground, the boss is backing up like a mad man, and the tree ends up laying down about 45 degrees from the way we wanted it to. No damage to anything, but big time pucker factor watching the butt slide out.


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## undercut

*proper felling pulling with a truck*

I read this whole thread and i am very interested in the proper way to fell while pulling a tree with a truck. Assume you have proper rope, high secure placement good grip ect. I was under the impression that you can do a gentle test pull and see what you are getting by watching the trees movement.(If you can easily move the weight with little effort, stand it up checking what you can do just giving it little tugs) Then release tension. make your notch. then do another gentle test pull to see what you are getting. then add pre tension if every thing looks ok. say pre tension is just a quarter to a third of the weight of the tree depending on your lean. Then lock and block the truck under pre tension. Then start your back cut until you see the tree start to go with your back cut opening up ever so slightly look at your hinge on both sides. square off. hammer a wedge in straight on with your fall direction. cut a little more to square off and perfect your last cutting to leave your desired hinge width .seat your wedge again. Then exit and pull. 

I have to say i really want to be corrected here. this is my impression to how this procedure goes. This is a great topic i have to say i don't think anyone spelled out the exact text book procedure. Over all seems like people are saying this a common professional technique. If anyone one knows were there are safe felling height to lean charts i would like to check them out also if you could post them.. thanks


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## lees trees

until someone can account for all the what ifs, pulling with a truck is more of a art-form than a science.


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## 2FatGuys

Exactly right Lees! Too many people treat this as if it can be a textbook exercise. Every tree grows differently. I have experienced my fair share of pucker factor when an "obviously healthy" and "easy pull" becomes a rapidly moving barber chair with no clear exit path for the cutter. We do NOT pull with a vehicle unless there is no other way to drop the tree. We do sometimes use a F-350 as an anchor point, if there is no suitable tree in the right direction, for setting up a 3:1 or 4:1 for pulling by hand to set up pretension or to urge the tree to go against the lean. We never use less than a 3/4" rope when working against the lean. Our favorite is a 1 1/8" line used by power companies to pull high tension lines. We are lucky enough to sometimes get the unused remnants off of spools. Some of these "pieces of trash" have been over 200 feet long and are rated at over 30,000#. But they are not indestructible! About a year ago, we had one snap under full load. If there had been anyone in the path of the rope, it would have killed them. Instead, it hit the tailgate of the F-350, created 7 creases in the sheet metal, and the hot tip of the rope welded itself to the face of the rear bumper.


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## Tree Machine

Eeeeek!


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## Cannon Dan

*tree trouble*

the trouble with pulling over a tree with equipment is the introduction of many variables that make the practice dangerous. (pull line- multiple people- their communication- the machine- the rope- the block- the engine- the surface its on)Of all the trees I have seen pulled over 90% should have been addressed in another way. It seems to be the "way out" of a bad spot for some who lack experience climbing. dont get me wrong there are trees that are made safe by pulling. I spent a lot of time as a falling contractor and my family business was in the arborist industry. Many a time i have seen a guy climb 30-40' up a single stem tree just to put a line on it so he could pull it onto a street. If i am to putt my climbing gear on to go up a removal i can "chunk it down" by the time he ties the pull line, had got back to the ground, ran the rope, hooked up the machine, stopped the traffic, fell the tree, cleaned off the road, etc. Remember blocking it down in chunks is 100%. there is no way to hit a line or house thats 20' away if you take it down in 6' chunks.
I use to train guys to take the Utility course and I always use the same example. Lets assume your along a 240KV line and clearing the trees from the right away. you can free fall them. put a line on and pull them over. or climb and piece them down. "can you fall the tree?" i would say on something relatively easy no doubt they would say yes. I would ask "how sure are you" every time they would say 99%. My response was always the same. So at 99% it will fall safely along the power line? "We do this for a living. You will do 100 trees by Wednesday. Does that mean Wednesday that 1% will catch up with you and you will hit the line killing you?"
Dramatic, but just a thought to ponder.

My point after all this rambling is work safely. There is enough danger in our business to go around. use whatever method has the least variables to control. and if you have to pull it over make sure that driver is well schooled because he can blow it just as easy as the cutter.

cheers, D


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## cwelvy

Use it often. Always triangulated off a tree with cambium saver 99% right on the cone I place for spectators and often for leaner's. But, I do climb and set the rope 3/4 way up tree and take off weight if over house and propane tanks!!


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## (WLL)

Small Wood said:


> I use mules and bungee cord. If the tree goes the wrong way it will sometimes fling the mules in the air taking the homeowners mind off the damage.
> Works for me,
> Phil


:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Sprig

I tend to shy away from pulling things over for most of the reasons posted here. I have done it but look at other factors first. When I have had to use a vehicle I've made darned sure the driver (if it isn't me) is well versed on signals and not a hyper-active sort with a lead foot (having had a dead branch or two snapped off up top by eager beavers, not nice and very lucky me), iow. a steady gentle pull is,more often than not, sufficient for the job. as someone previously mentioned this, using a vehicle to anchor to when there's nothing else around to guide or swing an ugly is sometimes necessary if there are concerns about the tree pivoting in the wrong direction, but I've found it very important not to over tension the lines, if I want a barber chair I'll go for a haircut  Rope or cable without stretch is my preference as it prevents/minimizes any undue slingshot-type events. But having dead branches shocked offa the tree is my biggest concern (and no, I don't climb, or I'd get up there and remove as much as possible, esp. over my last cut zone etc.). 
Just a thought or two for my afternoon cocktail hour :biggrinbounce2: 

 & stay safe All!

Serge


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## (WLL)

*pulling trees over with a truck*

i do it only when its gonna work,and it works every time we do it. i have lots of tools and use what works. if your not shure than you better do something your sure about!!


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## sharkfin12us

*pulling tree down with truck*

I use 3 ton hand winch if it has some lean to it and i cant get a truck to it.Only use winch if it is not staight up.


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## undercut

*books*

Anyone know and great felling books?


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## Ekka

I think many would enjoy this video I just put up.

Felling a large ironbark pulling with 4WD

I read this entire thread and frankly, using machinery or trucks is all science, art belongs in galleries, danger is ever present in any situation, climbing isn't always an option and it's wise to have the full bag of tricks.

Barber chairing from premature take offs etc is all AMATURE stuff. I pull over heaps of trees ON MY OWN. Yes, back cut, then go over to the vehicle/loader etc and pull. I back up with wedges 99% of the time.

Even in this older video I did it on my own. You should be able to complete the back cut and walk away then do the pull.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=34656


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## 2FatGuys

Ekka - Great video... Be careful with the comments though. Barber chairing is not always caused by "premature takeoff" and is even sometimes not "AMATURE stuff". The one that I mentioned that caused the most "pucker factor" for us was a large red oak that we later determined had experienced lightening damaged many years ago and healed over the internal damage so that nobody knew it was there. There was an internal split in the tree that started about 4 inches inside the bark line and went from below grond to about 30 feet up. There was enough evidence of dead branches in the canopy, so we opted (as in your video) to not even climb for line placement since we could easily place the line from the ground. This tree had to be felled 90 degrees to a significant lean to avoid a pool, the house, and some elaborate gardens. There was no way to get a crane or bucket truck anywhere near the tree. So, persuading the tree to go 90 degrees to the lean was our only option. Our truck couldn't get in line with the pull direction due to heavily wooded terrain and a hill, so we had to redirect the pull line through a huge block and pull about 75 degrees off axis (which is no big deal and why we own the huge block). Everything was going great until the tree started coming over. The internal split was in line with the felling direction, but the weight was perpendicular to that. As the tree broke on over and the hinge wood folded and started to let go, the pre-existing split allowed the weighted side of the tree to "take off". We've seen the "amature stuff" barber chairs you mention, but this was a freak situation caused by unseen internal conditions. Luckily my partner recognized it quickly as he was pulling with the truck and he increased speed just enough to regain the control of the top. It landed about 15 degrees off of our intended location (the top), but close to 20 feet short since the butt of the tree kicked out when the split started influencing the fall. We hit nothing with the main body of the tree, but the side of the tree opposite the lean, with 20 percent of the trunk attached, landed exactly 180 degrees opposite the lean! It was an eye opener and we spent a good amount of time doing what we jokingly call "forensic cutting" on that tree to see if there was any possible way we could have determined the internal condition prior to cutting. The split was obviously an old one. There were some obviously dead branches, but the trunk appeared strong and healthy, even when sounded with a heavy hammer. There was no rot or decay in the trunk at all except about 45 feet up where we found some internal charred wood, which led us to the lightening damage theory. The old split ended about 4 feet below where a major vertical stem took off from the trunk. the "barber chairing" continued the split through that joint. It was interesting looking a tthe old versus new split. We wondered if the possible lightening damage could have damaged the woody cells enough that it prevents it from ever healing.

While I agree that many barber chairs are "AMATURE stuff", some are not. We do use portable power when necesary, but only when nothing else is a better method. We have just learned over the years that sometimes that external influence hides subtle reactions that we all watch in the canopy as we cut. It prevents us from being able to adjust our cut in response to the wood's own internal stresses becuase they can be hidden in the pretensioning of the line, no matter how light.

Now, my "broken 30K line slingshotting into the tailgate" story is totally different. We'll save it for another day so that we can ALL bash my partner for his "hey y'all watch this" behavior. We never fixed the sheet metal damage as a reminder that even pros can get a little lazy at times.


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## Ekka

I'll repeat.



> Barber chairing from premature take offs etc is all AMATURE stuff



It says exactly what it reads. That is barber chairs CAUSED by premature take offs IS AMATURE STUFF.

In your instance there were other factors, and you could have strapped the butt and bore cut, set the hinge, then released.


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## 2FatGuys

Which is exactly what we would have done if there had been any indication that there was even the remote chance of a barberchair risk.

Ekka, thanks for all the videos. They are a great help in explaining methods and processes to the crew...


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## lees trees

ekka your little truck was slippin a little and rocking a dead rotten tree is spooky maybe its just me that's art. like your videos.


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## Ekka

Thanks fecrousejr. I understand what you were saying however there's two main types of barber chairs when using machinery. One is the premature pull and two is the excavator push.

Leestrees,

Tough wood the ole ironbark.

It was backed with wedges and lets assume worst case scenario, the rocking broke the hinge wood.

Could it go backwards? Not unless the rope broke too.

Could it go sideways? Yep, but any decent driver would floor it and get it going a little toward the right direction.

The rocking was caused mainly by the combination of stretch in the rope and vehicle suspension/brake movement etc. No biggie and again ... just stay cool, dont panic, dont do anything drastic or stupid. The hinge wood was just too strong, too stiff, had to come down to a finer hinge for that pull.

Now if it were a 100 series posi-track, would have gone over I'd say.


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## lees trees

Ekka said:


> the rocking just stay cool, don't panic, dont do anything drastic or stupid. The hinge wood was just too strong, too stiff, had to come down to a finer hinge for that pull.
> 
> 
> I understand calculated risk and you handle it well but your little truck almost couldn't do the job that time. the ground looked like clay even with the horizontal pull just a guess but your 2500 pound truck might pull 1000 maybe 1500 pounds probably less once it breaks traction, a lot less.


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## Ekka

And then you have the option of installing a Zrig and tripling it. :biggrinbounce2:


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## lees trees

zrig sounds better than blocks and pulleys gets right to the point. I need to master the video so you can pick mine apart


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