# single rope climbing or classical method



## cutter300 (Oct 23, 2007)

I am a beginner and I am seeking advice on what method of climbing for tree care is best, the single rope technique or the classical method with split tail? I have heard that the SRT system does not offer the best mobility but I don't understand why. Thank you.


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## cutter300 (Oct 24, 2007)

Thank you. This is consistent with what I have read.


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## moray (Oct 24, 2007)

Another point in favor of traditional for a beginner is that SRT is _much _more complicated, and there are a lot more ways for something to go awry. Definitely learn the traditional method first!


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## rbtree (Oct 24, 2007)

Ummm, I like classical, but am considering trying the jazz method.....:monkey:


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## 2FatGuys (Oct 24, 2007)

For us "fat boys", the 2:1 aspect of Ddrt makes it much more appealing also.


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## cutter300 (Oct 25, 2007)

The cost of the equipment for the traditional double rope technique is cheaper which is also a plus. Other than the belt, rope, split tail kit, foot ascender, figure 8, lanyard, helmet, extra carabiner, what else might I need or may come in handy?

I am looking into the Petzl Vario Sit Work Saddle. It is reasonably priced, supposedly comfortable and provides good mobility.

As far as rope is concerned I will possibly go with the arborplex. The only drawback to it which I see is that it is not splicable.

I don't know what carabiners to go with as of yet.

I would appreciate any input you might have on this equipment. Thanks to all.


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## 2FatGuys (Oct 25, 2007)

I use Arbormaster rope. I like how it wears over time and how it feels in the hand. I don't climb with gloves (old rock climbing habit), so subtle differences in rope feel make a huge difference over time. I also don't use a foot ascender (although I should sometime). I prefer to carry a few prussic loops, that can be used for multiple purposes, and a few webbing loops. I try not to carry much single purpose equipment, in order to lighten the overall load. I do use an "8". But again, I use it for multiple purposes like lowering limbs from above as well as lowering myself.


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 25, 2007)

As far as entry techniques go you cant beat the traditional footlock on a doubled rope. all you need is a prussic and some practice and you'll be on your way up in a very efficient 1:1. then you'll have the equipment to turn it around and decend on the traditional 2:1.


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## 2FatGuys (Oct 25, 2007)

I was taught that the 2:1 and 1:1 were relative to the amount of effort being used. If that is correct, then traditional climbing would be 2:1 since the crotch (or false crotch) acts as a pulley and the weight you are raising is twice what you are pulling down on the rope. Single rope climbing would be 1:1, since you are lifting the full load (your own weight) and the rope is acting as merely a "progress capture device". Am I seeing this wrong?


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 25, 2007)

fecrousejr said:


> I was taught that the 2:1 and 1:1 were relative to the amount of effort being used. If that is correct, then traditional climbing would be 2:1 since the crotch (or false crotch) acts as a pulley and the weight you are raising is twice what you are pulling down on the rope. Single rope climbing would be 1:1, since you are lifting the full load (your own weight) and the rope is acting as merely a "progress capture device". Am I seeing this wrong?




you have it correct, but footlocking a doubled rope is a very efficient 1:1 method of ascent that can be achieved with a climbing line and $3 prussic.

For SRT you're looking at a special climbing line (static or semi-static, arborplex wont work) and ascenders (at least three of them) you'd be lucky to outfit yourself with SRT gear for under $300.


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## MuniciPAL (Oct 25, 2007)

you mentioned you were looking into purchasing a petzl vario sit saddle. 
if you are planning on getting any work done up there i would get something a little thicker. 
that saddle is great but it tends to dig in on the side d rings while ascending.
just my experience, i figured i would tell you so you can adjust accordingly if need be.


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## Adkpk (Oct 25, 2007)

cutter300 said:


> The cost of the equipment for the traditional double rope technique is cheaper which is also a plus. Other than the belt, rope, split tail kit, foot ascender, figure 8, lanyard, helmet, extra carabiner, what else might I need or may come in handy?
> 
> I am looking into the Petzl Vario Sit Work Saddle. It is reasonably priced, supposedly comfortable and provides good mobility.
> 
> ...



I've been reading this thread and just realized you still haven't left the ground yet. I haven't posted because I am a beginner also, looking to pick up some tips myself. If you want a to get together for a demonstration I would try to help you out. All we need is a tree.


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## Fireaxman (Oct 26, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> ... For SRT you're looking at a special climbing line (static or semi-static, arborplex wont work) and ascenders (at least three of them) you'd be lucky to outfit yourself with SRT gear for under $300.



Oooops ! OTG, am I doing something I should not be doing? I made 2 sixty foot climbs SRT on Arborplex today. I'm using One (Right) CMI Ascender ($48), a CMI Rope Walker ($50,for backup), and a Pantin ($63). I used to descend on a Cardiac Arrester ($26) with a Blakes backup, but recently went high dollar and got a Large Petzl I'D. Like it a lot. Anyway, I was doing SRT very comfortably for less than $200 in extra equipment until I spent $170 for the I'D.

If there is a safety reason not to climb SRT on Arborplex I need to know about it.

For canopy access, if I can "Trunk Walk" my way up with a flip line, split tail, and Michoacan I prefer DdRT, but when poison ivy or ornamental vines (ex. confederate jasmine) cover the trunk, or when my project is way out on a live oak limb, SRT is definetly the way to go.


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## ropensaddle (Oct 26, 2007)

I am getting tired of the classical barefoot shinny and thinking
of getting some used boots or moccasins:monkey:


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## rahtreelimbs (Oct 26, 2007)

As all have already stated SRT for access and traditional system for working the tree.

I just recently converted over to SRT, wish I had earlier. The energy saved is truly great!!!


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## beastmaster (Oct 27, 2007)

cutter300 said:


> I am a beginner and I am seeking advice on what method of climbing for tree care is best, the single rope technique or the classical method with split tail? I have heard that the SRT system does not offer the best mobility but I don't understand why. Thank you.



I've been useing the same method of climbing for many years, just recently I went to a spit tail with a tender pulley, along with a 24braid 11mm climbing line.It takes a second to get use to but I swear by the split tail. The 24 braid rope is sweet also.(It does twist easily). I also just started useing a double rope foot lock ascending technique, Man I'll never use the single rope foot lock again if I can help it. Seems to me I use way less energy with the double rope foot lock. I also waited 15 years before switching from the suicide knot to a rope clamp lanyard system(wanted to be sure they were safe) I love it.Just my two cents


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## lync (Oct 27, 2007)

Fire ax I would have no problem w/srt on arborplex. However since its a dynamic rope meant to catch a fall while climbing, it may not be the most efficent due to stretch during srt. Its also a little fat compared to a 7/16 kernmantle which is a more common rope to use w/ascenders. Most ascenders are designed for rope up to 13mm which covers arborist 1/2 inch climbing rope. Safety is not an issue with your set up. The ascenders will cause some wear to the rope due to the teeth on the cams. Retire the rope when needed.
The I'D rocks!! Do a search for R.A.D.S system which will allow you to use an ascender with your I'd to ascend the rope while your I'D is installed.

Corey


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## Fireaxman (Oct 28, 2007)

Corey - Thanks for the heads up on RADS. I found Tom's pictures at http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=30642&page=2&highlight=RADS

I had completely overlooked it when it was first posted. Did not have an I'D at the time. I've got everything I need to try it now, and I may even have a little time tomorrow morning.


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## lync (Oct 28, 2007)

*Rads*

The set up in the sherrill catalog works great. 

Corey


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## Fireaxman (Oct 29, 2007)

lync said:


> The set up in the sherrill catalog works great.
> 
> Corey



2007 Master Catalog? What page? Somehow I'm not finding it. Also tried a RADS and R.A.D.S. search on their web site.

Anyway, tried it with what I have. Man, have I got the right concept here? Works like a 3 part line, almost 3:1 mechanical advantage (less friction, which aint much) the way I rigged it. Powerful, but SLOW ! Loose the speed of 1:1 SRT. Doesn't take much muscel to get a few inches, but it took a lot of reps to make 60 feet.

I made my best progress by taking off the pantin, shoving the ascender up the rope as far as I could reach, and working the tail hand over hand. Easy pulls, but it sure took a bunch of them.

I did enjoy the simplicity and security though, and it was a pleasure not having to rig off of the ascender and rig on to the descender.


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 30, 2007)

Fireaxman said:


> Oooops ! OTG, am I doing something I should not be doing? I made 2 sixty foot climbs SRT on Arborplex today. I'm using One (Right) CMI Ascender ($48), a CMI Rope Walker ($50,for backup), and a Pantin ($63). I used to descend on a Cardiac Arrester ($26) with a Blakes backup, but recently went high dollar and got a Large Petzl I'D. Like it a lot. Anyway, I was doing SRT very comfortably for less than $200 in extra equipment until I spent $170 for the I'D.
> 
> If there is a safety reason not to climb SRT on Arborplex I need to know about it.
> 
> For canopy access, if I can "Trunk Walk" my way up with a flip line, split tail, and Michoacan I prefer DdRT, but when poison ivy or ornamental vines (ex. confederate jasmine) cover the trunk, or when my project is way out on a live oak limb, SRT is definetly the way to go.




Like lync stated, arborplex is too thick and has too much give. Get 200' of KMII and thank me later:rockn:


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## moray (Oct 30, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> ...Any stretch is taken out in the first few feet of climbing and usually can be taken out by pulling rope while standing on the ground. I can see stretch being a concern if the climber wants to get on and off the system several times on the way to the top but if the climb is straight to the top it is not a factor.



I think there is another aspect of stretchiness that does matter. Each time you advance up the rope you do so by momentarily applying an extra dollop of force to the rope, which stretches it. The rope will recover and the extra stretch will disappear, but there is real energy lost in the rope when this happens. If you climbed a steel cable, or a ladder, or a stairway, there would be virtually no loss of this type. 

So climbing a stretchy rope is akin to walking up a sand dune, while climbing a static rope is more like climbing the stairs. Bounciness in the rope, whether you notice it or not, is energy wasted.


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## reachtreeservi (Oct 30, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Smooth technique makes almost no bounce at all. I SRT on 1/2" NE KMIII and on 1/2" NE HIVee and hardly notice any difference between the two. I can see it making a difference if we were climbing 200 or 300 feet but we don't do those kinds of climbs in trees.



TreeCo, Can you get that New England kernmantle 3 with a spliced eye?


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## reachtreeservi (Oct 31, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I don't know. I bought mine in a 600ft. roll.
> 
> I don't use spliced eyes except on block slings. I believe they are a conspiracy to wrench dollars from arborist! Spliced eyes seldom cinch to biners and can get in the way of making a good tress cord....as the splice can not be part of the friction hitch. I'll take a scaffold knot every time. I use an anchor hitch to attach my climbing line to a biner....No spliced eyes!



I agree with you about sliced eyes being a conspiracy to wrench dollars from arborist . I have payed as much as 45.00 for one splice ! I order mine from sherrills and always get the tight eye. And I always clip my anchor on one attachment point and my friction hitch on another, I just like the streamlined look and feel of it.... 
Thanks for the info


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## moray (Oct 31, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> Smooth technique makes almost no bounce at all.



You are absolutely right that smooth technique can reduce bounce and wasted energy. If we could climb the rope with absolutely uniform speed, like an elevator, there would be no wasted energy even if the rope were made of rubber. And even with very jerky technique, arborist ropes are so stiff that the wasted energy is only a few percent.

But to a lot of people I think it will still matter, for a couple of reasons.

First is pure feel--you CAN tell the difference between two ropes, and the stiffer one feels better. This will be especially apparent if you climb SRT, as I do, on the smaller 10mm and 11mm ropes used by cavers and rock climbers.

Second, the smooth technique idea has a built-in limitation--you can't eliminate bounce. All of the SRT techniques I am aware of involve repeated complete stops and starts, or at least something very close to it. This means repeated jolts to the rope each time you stand up. The faster you climb (who doesn't want to go fast?), the stronger the jolts, the more the rope stretches, the more energy you waste. Smooth technique may improve things a bit around the edges, but the bulk of the wasted energy is going to be there no matter what. Anyone who makes a regular practice of climbing SRT is bound to prefer a rope with better feel and better performance.


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## moray (Oct 31, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> I do climb srt on a regular basis. I use the same rope to move around in the tree using the traditional system after I srt into the tree.



It sounds like you have designed a near-optimum system. I have to admit that I do frequently drag a second rope up into the tree if I want to switch to DRT, and in a dozen other ways I do things that are not efficient or practical. I have that luxury since I don't have to make a living at this, but it gives me some real appreciation for people like yourself who do!


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## OTG BOSTON (Oct 31, 2007)

If you're gonna switch to drt then use a semi static with less stretch like the fly or p.i. (thats how I do!)


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## cutter300 (Oct 31, 2007)

MuniciPAL said:


> you mentioned you were looking into purchasing a petzl vario sit saddle.
> if you are planning on getting any work done up there i would get something a little thicker.
> that saddle is great but it tends to dig in on the side d rings while ascending.
> just my experience, i figured i would tell you so you can adjust accordingly if need be.



I guess this is ascending with a flip line being the side D rings are painful. Am I correct? Have you climbed with the same style of saddle but with a different brand which you might recommender? Thanks for sharing your experience.


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## cutter300 (Oct 31, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> I've been reading this thread and just realized you still haven't left the ground yet. I haven't posted because I am a beginner also, looking to pick up some tips myself. If you want a to get together for a demonstration I would try to help you out. All we need is a tree.



I'll take you up on the offer. I appreciated it. I will try messaging you.


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