# The "Utility Vegetation Management" Thread



## kmoose (Mar 6, 2006)

It seems that we have a lot of experienced people that are or have worked in the utility line clearing industry. It is my goal to encourage such people to come together on this thread and share project results, ideas and techniques for the benefit of everyone involved. I don't expect all the input to be positive in nature. The simple fact is many of the world's utilities have been searching for a "better" way of accomplishing the "necessary evil" of trimming and or removing trees and brush in their utility easements.

So now is your chance. 
What works for you? 
What doesn't? 
What is your relationship with your consumers? 
Your trimmers? 
Do your managers stand behind you or do they throw you to the "wolves" when a consumer calls in? 
What are your specifications? 
Do your trimmers really cut to them?
Are your trimming and removal standards consistent with every consumer?
What methods work to acquire compliant removals from reluctant consumers?
Do you often find yourself wondering if you were dropped on your head as a child to even consider the fact that you choose this line of work?

Post it all folks! Whether you're a utility employee, contract trimmer, pre planner, post auditor, or anything in between, post your stories, pictures, projects, complaints and moans. It's all good. Many utilities are ripe and ready for changes to be made, with millions of dollars to spend. The ball is in our court now. How can we set right what has been mismanaged for so long? If money was no object, what would you do?

I've rambled on enough, but I think you get the just of what I'm asking here.......
Thanks in advance for your input,
Kenny


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## jmack (Mar 6, 2006)

*moose*



kmoose said:


> It seems that we have a lot of experienced people that are or have worked in the utility line clearing industry. It is my goal to encourage such people to come together on this thread and share project results, ideas and techniques for the benefit of everyone involved. I don't expect all the input to be positive in nature. The simple fact is many of the world's utilities have been searching for a "better" way of accomplishing the "necessary evil" of trimming and or removing trees and brush in their utility easements.
> 
> So now is your chance.
> What works for you?
> ...


good one moose, good idea we luv the utilities


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## kmoose (Mar 6, 2006)

*Cedar Removals*

Three separate consumers gave way and agreed to 61 cedar tree removals that have been "ledge trimmed" for up to 20 years. The trees ranged in age from 8 to 41 year in age and a circumference of up to 5'2". The trees where planted originally to keep road dust from reaching the homes and where traditionally planted........you guessed it, directly underneath the lines. 
Taking them down was a no brainer for the crews, but gaining the consumers agreement to remove the landmark cedars required stump grinding and the offering of replacement shrubs. Note, I use the word "agreement". Permission is a word that is no longer in my vocabulary, it implies that you need consent to remove trees that currently, or in the future may pose a threat to energized power lines. Our easement for this subdivision extends 6 feet inside the consumers roadside property line......more current easements are 10 to 15'. To some this may seem drastic and unnecessary, but the hazards posed by trees growing near energized lines far out weighs esthetics in landscaping. A child could easily climb close enough to the top of one of the larger cedars and have it bow directly into the phases..........If it happened only once it would cost more than any check or law suit could repay.


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## kmoose (Mar 6, 2006)

More pics


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## skwerl (Mar 6, 2006)

5'2" circumference is what, about 20" diameter? My math skillz suck. 

The nice thing about working with Cedar is that it chips real easy. The bark near the ground holds a lot of dirt though, dulls your saw even if it looks clean.


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## clearance (Mar 6, 2006)

Great idea Moose, I am a government/trade certified utility arborist, would love to participate talking with the people who do utility work in any capacity. Have got into many spirited utility talks here in the past, usually with those who know next to nothing about power, limits of approach, etc, but a lot about trees and tree health. Should be interesting, the one thing I would ask is that people participating identify thier background and authorized experience in regards to utility work, in other words cards on the table about relevant knowledge.


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## kmoose (Mar 6, 2006)

clearance said:


> Great idea Moose, I am a government/trade certified utility arborist, would love to participate talking with the people who do utility work in any capacity. Have got into many spirited utility talks here in the past, usually with those who know next to nothing about power, limits of approach, etc, but a lot about trees and tree health. Should be interesting, the one thing I would ask is that people participating identify thier background and authorized experience in regards to utility work, in other words cards on the table about relevant knowledge.




Thanks, and you bring up a good point. I am more on the opposite side of the utility arborist scale. I spent 18 years as a Cooperative lineman and the last 3 1/2 as a vegetation management "problem solver" spearheading a complete restructure of our current Right of Way program. I am currently studying for my ISA Utility certification and am scheduled for testing this summer. Next month I am going to get my herbicide cert. and attend several training seminars. I am no stranger to utility trimming as much of my early years of line work included time on the tree crews. One of the reasons I was chosen for my current position was because of my savvy with the consumers. I have been told I could sell ice to the Eskimos. 

I have no problem with taking it on the chin from the respected “tree experts” out there. Your knowledge is fair game to me and I’ll research and confirm all input before taking it as fact. I expect all do the same with me. Opinions are like chainsaws…..we all have them but a couple of them probably don’t work very well. 

Clearance, I look forward to our future discussions on this thread and others. Your experience and knowledge in this field will be a valuable asset in solving problems brought up on this thread. Who knows, we may even get our own section.


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## clearance (Mar 6, 2006)

Moose, looking at your extensive experience working around power it would seem to me that you should be teaching the ISA about power safety, not the other way round. I think it is great that man with so much hands on/practical knowledge is making the call on trees. Here in BC it seems that BC hydro does not want utility guys to become veg. managers, maybe because they are afraid of guys making deals with thier old work buddies, crazy, that would never happen.....


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## kmoose (Mar 6, 2006)

skwerl said:


> 5'2" circumference is what, about 20" diameter? My math skillz suck.
> 
> The nice thing about working with Cedar is that it chips real easy. The bark near the ground holds a lot of dirt though, dulls your saw even if it looks clean.


 
My arbor tape was at the office on that one but I would guess that it was close to 21 inches. 

I wacked a couple of crabs off the butt end of the logs to make some clocks. There was alot of included bark at the base that held soil to work on the saws, let alone the nails left in the trunks next to the driveways where all the years of "Yard sale" signs were posted.


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## Mike Cantolina (Mar 6, 2006)

Hurricanes seem to make the sale much easier  So what was the final selling point?

I've been in and out of line clearance since '90 or '91 mostly in.

I was in Ocala after Francis. 

Mike


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## stihlatit (Mar 6, 2006)

kmoose said:


> My arbor tape was at the office on that one but I would guess that it was close to 21 inches.
> 
> I wacked a couple of crabs off the butt end of the logs to make some clocks. There was alot of included bark at the base that held soil to work on the saws, let alone the nails left in the trunks next to the driveways where all the years of "Yard sale" signs were posted.



Diameter is 62 inches divided by 3.1416 equals 19.7351 inches. Just in case you math sucks.


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## doggonetrees (Mar 7, 2006)

Clearance, so this is where I need to go to discuss power line trimming. I started out as a groundman on the right of way crew we had, then to manual tree trimmer( hooks ), then aerial basket treetrimmer. Went from this to the line crew up to journeyman lineman. There were a lot of things we did on the row that I learned weren't kosher when I got to the linecrew. Knocking limbs off a phase with hydraulic pole saw, in bucket that wasn't grounded, etc. Blew up a 15 kv pot once with a pecan twig- big oil spill on that one. The company I worked for sends their apprentices on line crew to 2 weeks of climbing school- also teach ins and outs of distribution. Our rea only goes up to 14,400 kv, but we still have a lot of 7620 hard drawn copper. Drew a shock working trouble during a lightning storm, with wet gloves once. We have a lot of wet land here, so we use peaveys to carry a lot of our poles to job site. The co. is coming around putting one shot breakers on the line, so the death potential isn't as high. The reason I started up my business was since 9-11, I have been activated and probably won't have a job when I do come off orders. Glad that there is someone else that knows power.


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## kmoose (Mar 7, 2006)

doggonetrees said:


> The co. is coming around putting one shot breakers on the line, so the death potential isn't as high.



This statement is quite alarming to me. Placing a recloser on "one shot" will do nothing to reduce "death potential" in live line work. The non reclose function on a recloser is designed to help protect equipment and prevent "blinking" consumers up line on the station recloser. In no way will it protect a lineman that makes contact phase to ground or phase to phase. You will be just as dead. The false sense of security that "one shot" offers is as old a wives tale as reclosers have been on the market. It is still a very entrenched belief among many very experienced linemen, so make it a point to question this belief if you are told this. If you have the opportunity to ask a lineman who has survived a contact, ask him if he believed that the nonreclose function on an overhead breaker would have spared him the injury.
I personally have helped take down 2 diseased linemen on separate occasions......in both instances the recloser they were working behind were on "one shot". I'll spare you the photos.


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## kmoose (Mar 7, 2006)

Mike Cantolina said:


> Hurricanes seem to make the sale much easier  So what was the final selling point?
> 
> I've been in and out of line clearance since '90 or '91 mostly in.
> 
> ...


One of my big "selling" points is the fact that the trees have been improperly trimmed for so long that it is beyond correcting. Next I explain that any trees left will eventually be trimmed and never be allowed to achieve full crown potential, thus forcing the tree to be "tortured" it's entire lifespan until it finally dies from stress and needs to be removed. Lastly I explain that the trees growing in the shadow behind the easement will now receive the light, space, and water taken by the trees to be removed lying in the easement. In the end we have a legal right to remove the trees, but I would rather help the consumer make an educated decision to remove a tree or trees for the right reasons.......not because I can force their hand.
Word travels fast in a community and if you are the bad guy, the right person will make your job very tough. I treat every consumer consistently. If you don't trim or remove trees in the same manner for every consumer on the block, you will have resistance from those you haven't trimmed yet. Consistency breeds compliance.

As for now, I am leaving my office to sit with an 81 year old "problem consumer" that has given agreement to remove 16 long term trees that are under and in a major feeder. His only condition after 2 hours of listening to his life story last Friday, was that I sit with him in a chair in his yard while the work was being done. I have a really busy schedule today, but a promise is a promise. I don't make ANY with consumers I won't keep.


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## doggonetrees (Mar 8, 2006)

Kmoose, yes-I worded the statement about the recloser wrong. Before we had 1 shot capability, if something got on the line and the breaker wasn't working properly- the line would continue to arc until the line burnt down. I've only had to work one aerial rescue, and it wasn't good. Although the lineman survived- lost some fingers and his right foot. He's still working for the company in a back office position. We would put the breaker on one shot to replace poles, etc. Had to wear rubber from bottom of pole to top and down again. He was putting stand-off arms up and somehow came into contact with the phase. We were framing another pole on the pole trailor when he made contact.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 8, 2006)

kmoose said:


> This statement is quite alarming to me. Placing a recloser on "one shot" will do nothing to reduce "death potential" in live line work. The non reclose function on a recloser is designed to help protect equipment and prevent "blinking" consumers up line on the station recloser. In no way will it protect a lineman that makes contact phase to ground or phase to phase. You will be just as dead.



Yeah, but you'll only be dead once!


I have to wonder how many people (in ALL walks of life) have been killed by "safety devices" which were not properly understood, thus giving a false sense of security.


I saw a study that was done on how many pedestrians are killed every year by having the right-of-way. People just walk out in front of cars because it's their "right", but somehow the laws of physics just don't cooperate.


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## clearance (Mar 8, 2006)

Moose and Mark are right, single shot, one shot are just there to protect transformers, lines from burning down, thats all. I guess if the first one doesn't get you and the circuit kicks it could have an advantage, but a slim one seeing as how high voltage contact is usually deadly. In BC, single shot is mandatory whenever doing utility work in close proximety. You have to get this permit over the phone from the utility. It's called "Assurance of no reclose permit", you get it the morning and return it after work. The switching to single shot is done by from the control centre with automated equipment or on some circuits by a lineman. I saw it "work" when I put a tree on the line, it did not kick right away, the tree burned for a bit first, like a minute, so who knows. At utility school I was taught that as soon as a fault is detected it de-energizes the line, maybe so.


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## kmoose (Mar 9, 2006)

clearance said:


> At utility school I was taught that as soon as a fault is detected it de-energizes the line, maybe so.



This is partialy true, but what the recloser "sees" as a fault is two different things. As you pointed out that you accidently created a fault but the line continued to burn for a period before the the recloser "locked out". This time delay can be atributed to several factors:

1.The distance between the fault and the recloser.
2.The conductor material.
3.The basic insulating level (BIL) of the material creating the fault.
4.The fault current of the system at the location of the fault.
5.The functioning cycle curves of the particular recloser.

Now, I know the above information will not mean much to many people, but I listed it to point out some of the many complex factors that play a role in how a recloser reacts to a down line fault either on "one shot" or "normal reclose". You will never be able to determine how a recloser will react because some of the above conditions are not static and will change with ambinant tempature and humidity variations. Plus, as Clearance has reiterated, reclosers are not for human protection.

There a 2 rules that cover working in proximity to electric conductors reguardless of whether you are trimming or preforming line maintainance:

Rule # 1: An electrical conductor will be treated as ENERGIZED until it is disconected from it's source, tested, grounded with approved equipment, and tagged by qualified personnel.

Rule # 2: If you pesonnally know the conductor is denergized and are possitive that there is no way for the line to be renergized until you finish your work.........Forget what you KNOW! Stop what you are doing and see rule #1!!!!!!!!!


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## JJackson (Mar 10, 2006)

Great removals Moose. I pretty much use the same points to the custmers to try and have trees removed. Been removing a lot of elms from the back of properties and alleys lately,the city will have a little less trees but the ones we leave will not be the topped ones.


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## kmoose (Mar 14, 2006)

kmoose said:


> As for now, I am leaving my office to sit with an 81 year old "problem consumer" that has given agreement to remove 16 long term trees that are under and in a major feeder. His only condition after 2 hours of listening to his life story last Friday, was that I sit with him in a chair in his yard while the work was being done. I have a really busy schedule today, but a promise is a promise. I don't make ANY with consumers I won't keep.


 
This guy kept me sitting there for almost 5 hours! Sometimes I would much rather run the saws and feed the chipper. On a side note, this consumer hasn't let anyone in his yard from the power company in 9 years......not even to read the meter. I really get the fun ones don't I?


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## kmoose (Mar 23, 2006)

*Need some help*

Can some of the experienced Utility foresters give me a definition that distinguishes a "side trim" v.s. an "Overhang" Trim. In a unit bid contract, one type of trim pays different than another, so a distinct definition must be made. What is your standard. Do you have one? Thanks for help in advance.


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## oldugly (Mar 27, 2006)

*thrown to the wolves*

I wish like hull we had a manager around here with the brass nuggets you are using in your system. Every time there is a question between a property owner and the contractor..(yours ever so truly) the contractor is always at fault. Permissions vs. agreements...I like that. Around here we are under the permission end of things..trees getting "minmal" trims, problem trees remaining in lines because homeowner wants to "preserve" his trees...funny thing when their power goes out due to tree failure...all we hear is the tree trimmers aren't doing their jobs.

Just my take...If there is a serious problem (as in the other day when the homeowner let his pit bull out while I was seeking "permission" to keep his power on by trimming out a burning aspen) I think the power company should discontinue service to that customer until compliance is reached.. but I'm just a sorehead that hates having to beat a dog to get him to quit chasing me. Then get chewed out by the power company for poor customer relations...###king cowardice [email protected]

Well you started this thread as a rant/suggestion/sharing place for utility clearance workers. I've done my ranting for today.


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## doggonetrees (Mar 28, 2006)

If the customer is on the end of the line and was a problem with row, the engineers would put a fuse on the tap so when the trees got in the line, their lights would go out and not affect everyone else. If the trees were in the main line, we would tell everyone down the line why their lights were going out all the time- pretty soon the neighbor would be getting such grief they would beg us to clear the line.


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## oldugly (Mar 29, 2006)

*side trim vs overhang*

kmoose
a good contractor would include the overhang in bidding the side trim, unless he was intending to do a minimal job to drive down the price...let them know exactly what you want, and ask them for the price of that. Don't let them dictate to you what is acceptable, or what they will do. You seem to be way ahead of the game in how you are handling vm, so most contractors are probably not use to dealing with a thorough system. Thus they are giving bids based on out of date standards.


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## kmoose (Apr 21, 2006)

oldugly said:


> Just my take...If there is a serious problem (as in the other day when the homeowner let his pit bull out while I was seeking "permission" to keep his power on by trimming out a burning aspen) I think the power company should discontinue service to that customer until compliance is reached.. but I'm just a sorehead that hates having to beat a dog to get him to quit chasing me. Then get chewed out by the power company for poor customer relations...###king cowardice [email protected]



I have a pretty good relationship with most of the local law enforcement, so if a problem consumer tries something like that...........well it's going to be a long day for them and their dog. Also we have used the "no restore" order in the past. I really don't like that option because it leads the consumer to believe he is in the right. If I get a refusal and we have a good easement, I try to apply good reason and work with them. I invite them to take the easement to an attorney if they feel like throwing some money away and find out what they think. As a last resort, I ask them if I need to schedule a deputy to be present to insure our crews’ safety while they clear the easement. At that point, with the easement in my hand, they normally give in as to not make a scene. 

If a Vegetation Management department has preplanners to deal with these issues prior to the trim crew arrival, it saves allot of time and money. Shutting a crew down or bringing them back after the conflict is rectified cost the trim contractor money and time also. Blaming trim contractors for spoiled and stupid consumers is dumb and drives a wedge in between what should be a positive working relationship. Good, effective planning is key to a cost efficient, well managed VM program. The money spent properly planning before the trimmers arrive will save you much more valuable time and aggravation……..and your trimmers will be allot more happy trimming and staying on schedule instead of dealing with refusals.


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## JODY MESSICK (Apr 22, 2006)

I work for Asplundh and our utility tells us if the customer refuses or gets in the way of trimming call the cops and trim anyway.Overhangs we trim just past the hinge point where if the limb hinges it wont hit line


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## JODY MESSICK (Apr 22, 2006)

The only thing we have to get permission for is a complete removal and leave the wood


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## clearance (Apr 22, 2006)

JODY MESSICK said:


> I work for Asplundh and our utility tells us if the customer refuses or gets in the way of trimming call the cops and trim anyway.Overhangs we trim just past the hinge point where if the limb hinges it wont hit line


Really, the cop must be choked when he realizes he has to put down his donut and come out to deal with some moron. Cops usually get along with working guys, I could see them taking your side right away, the need for powerline clearance is kind of obviuos. I would have given a couple of hundred bucks to see one of the many whining tree hugging freaks I have had to deal with stuffed into the back of a cop car. Actually, a little bit of "police brutality" first would be better, then in the car.


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## oldugly (Apr 22, 2006)

Clearance, you and I probably don't see eye to eye on alot of things, but all I can say is AMEN, bro. 
After threats, and so on by customers, I would love to see a little police brutality come in to play.
The power company here is run by corp lawyers who are afraid of their shadows. I actually had signed permission to take out a small tree under the line, (repeat..yes...SIGNED), and now I have to pay to plant a pine to replace it. The power company caved as soon as the complaint came in, and of course the contractor, (yours truly) was in the wrong.
Where I worked before, it was considered "implied permission". Meaning that permission was implied unless a customer called in a specific problem or complaint, and then the utility foreman handled it. (Unless of course it truly WAS contractor neglect...ie brush left in a yard, or tree butchered beyond recognition fifty feet from the line, etc.)
I've been thinking about getting a "permit to carry"...nah, better not.


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## clearance (Apr 22, 2006)

oldugly said:


> Clearance, you and I probably don't see eye to eye on alot of things, but all I can say is AMEN, bro.
> After threats, and so on by customers, I would love to see a little police brutality come in to play.
> The power company here is run by corp lawyers who are afraid of their shadows. I actually had signed permission to take out a small tree under the line, (repeat..yes...SIGNED), and now I have to pay to plant a pine to replace it. The power company caved as soon as the complaint came in, and of course the contractor, (yours truly) was in the wrong.
> Where I worked before, it was considered "implied permission". Meaning that permission was implied unless a customer called in a specific problem or complaint, and then the utility foreman handled it. (Unless of course it truly WAS contractor neglect...ie brush left in a yard, or tree butchered beyond recognition fifty feet from the line, etc.)
> I've been thinking about getting a "permit to carry"...nah, better not.


Our power co. (BC Hydro) is the same, spineless, run away, blame the treeguy, pathetic, there is one manager I really like cause he has balls, but incidents get bumped up the ladder out of his control. I strongly feel that it should be a criminal offence to interfere with utility guys, it is a vital service. So glad I got away from all that BS.


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