# Ongoing MS 200T Carburetor Issue



## HandLogger (Jan 27, 2012)

I started a thread last summer entitled _"Need Help With Adjustment Instructions,"_ which dealt with difficulty adjusting the carburetor on an MS 200T we own. After not being able to successfully complete the adjustment procedure, the saw was placed on the shop shelf and there it sat. We have a little spare time right now, so I've pulled the saw off of the shelf and am attempting to actually remove the carburetor from the saw.

Although we have an Owner's Manual and Parts Diagrams (1129) for the saw, we don't have anything describing service and/or repair work. At this point, I'd like to remove the carburetor from the saw to either remove or modify the "Cap" -- Illustration L (Carburetor C1Q-S61) Page 13, Ref ID 25 -- that limits the rotation of the "High speed adjustment screw" -- Illustration L (Carburetor C1Q-S61) Page 13, Ref ID 24. 

If anyone actually has the page from the applicable Service Manual that describes carburetor removal, we'd be much obliged if you would attach a .pdf here. If not, I'd appreciate some words about any tricks involved with the removal procedure. I've had the handle apart in the past, for cleaning purposes, so I'm not really nervous about the linkage and/or the electrical connections (ON/OFF switch). What I am skittish about, on the other hand, is the actual connection between the carburetor and the engine. 

If you're familiar with the MS 200T, you probably know that there's a rubber "Cover" -- Illustration G (Handle housing MS 200 T) Page 9, Ref ID 28 -- between the saw body and the handle housing, which, although I'm sure it has an important purpose, serves to shield one from being able to see the intake manifold/boot between the carburetor and the engine.

Here are the Parts Diagrams I've referred to above: MS 200T Parts Diagrams

Thanks for your time ...


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2012)

Not hard take air filter cover off
air filter out
2 nuts that hold the air filter base off and the black plastic base
take the gas line off the left side bottom off carb off by pushing it down

pull the carb up and out remove the throttle and choke linkage rods left and rt. 
That should be everything you may just have to take the rubber cover off on thr rt. side by the needle jets to get clearance.


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## HandLogger (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks (again) for the advice, *Lone Wolf*.

I've got the carburetor off now, and I'm looking closely at how the "Cap" I mentioned in the original post was designed. The Cap is made of plastic and has a protrusion on it that hits a steel post when it's rotated far enough. I'm not sure if the steel post serves any other purpose, so I'm hesitant to modify it in any way. It's shown on Page 13, Illustration L (Carburetor C1Q-S61) as part of the main carburetor body. 

I've also tried simply pulling the Cap off of the high speed (*H*) adjustment screw with pliers, but it seems very happy where it is. 

_Has anyone on the forum board ever cut the steel post in question to free up the high speed adjustment screw?_

If not, _how have you dealt with making this particular modification?_

Thanks for your time


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## MCW (Jan 28, 2012)

Hi Handlogger. 
I've experienced the dreaded 200T carby problems too but in my case a whole carby replacement to an older, non compensating version solved that.
Please find link to workshop manual. It's 7.59MB so just click on the link below and hit "download".
Hope it helps out mate 

Zippyshare.com - Stihl 200T workshop manual.pdf


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## Brian13 (Jan 28, 2012)

If you havnt looked through this this may help a little too.
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/145024.htm


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## HandLogger (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks to *MCW* and *Brian* for paying it forward. 

*MCW*: I'd love to read more about your carburetor swap. _Are you happy with the performance the new carburetor gives you? 

_The Chinese (ZAMA) mess I have on this saw has eaten up way too much of our time. If you happen to have a source and a part number, I'd be much obliged to you for the information.

Have a good one :msp_thumbsup:


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## MCW (Jan 28, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Thanks to *MCW* and *Brian* for paying it forward.
> 
> *MCW*: I'd love to read more about your carburetor swap. _Are you happy with the performance the new carburetor gives you?
> 
> ...



Hi mate. No dramas for the help.
I didn't actually do the swap but one of the local Stihl dealers did. They did the mandatory epoxying of the accelerator pump etc but the saw continued to get out of tune, over rev etc etc. It was really running like a pig. Anyway I took it back in to the dealer and he replaced the carby and backing plate to an older setup he had in his workshop for free. It has not missed a beat since  He told me that my issues had him stumped and he works on a lot of 200T's. They are a very popular saw here for fruit tree pruning and contract pruning companies.

I'll try to get some pictures and more information up ASAP.


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## MCW (Jan 28, 2012)

Back again.
Just pulled down both my recarbed 200T and my brand new one in the cupboard.
The non compensating backing plate you'd need is part # 1129 120 3400 and looks to be from the older 020 and 020T. I found a few listed here on eBay...

NEW STIHL AIR FILTER BASE EARLY 020T, 020 T CHAINSAW PART # 1129-120-3400 | eBay

The carby is a ZAMA S16A non compensating version the same (or similar to) as this one...

ZAMA Carburetors C1Q-S16A fits Stihl 020T, 1129 120 0601 | eBay

The code stamped on the carby is S16A 3YR. I "think" the above two parts are all you'd need?

Below are a couple of photos of my new 200T's carb setup...











And my older, fixed 200T which used to have the same setup as the new one...










Plus piccys of the older carby...


















Hope that helps. The 200T's are one of the best saws on the planet when running properly but the biggest pigs when they get carby trouble!


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## HandLogger (Jan 28, 2012)

*Identification*

Cheers for the photos, *Matt*. 

I've already modified and reinstalled the carburetor on my MS 200T, so I need to ask a question before I go through the trouble of pulling the saw apart again. I see that there's a cast mark on the side of your old carburetor that seems to read *S10*? It's in the photo that shows the side with all three adjustment screws. _Is that the number one should look for to identify which model came on the saw?_

The carburetor we have looks a lot like the one shown on Page 13 of our parts's diagram: MS 200T Parts Diagram. 

As you can see, Stihl is calling the carburetor a *C1Q-S61*. I understand that there were quite a few variations on the Zama Chinese carburetor, so I think it would be wise to educate myself about which model we actually have before we go any further.

Here's a photo I took while I was working on the saw. As you can see, it seems to identify the saw as an *S61D*. _Considering that the carburetor depicted on Page 13 of the MS 200T Parts Diagram seems to match, I'm thinking that our saw's carburetor is indeed a *C1Q-S61D*_.

View attachment 220378


Here's a look at the backing plate we have on our saw as well. I noticed that the hoses and such on your saws seem to be a bit different than ours. Any words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.

View attachment 220380


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## MCW (Jan 28, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Cheers for the photos, *Matt*.
> 
> I've already modified and reinstalled the carburetor on my MS 200T, so I need to ask a question before I go through the trouble of pulling the saw apart again. I see that there's a cast mark on the side of your old carburetor that seems to read *S10*? It's in the photo that shows the side with all three adjustment screws. _Is that the number one should look for to identify which model came on the saw?_
> 
> ...



I'm all out of wisdom now  What you have is the compensating carby by the look of it so to get a non compensating setup like mine you'd be looking at the items I linked to. Both of the 200T's I have are US sourced so shouldn't have been any different to yours. As mentioned the Stihl dealer was the one who rebuilt everything but I am pretty certain that the non compensating backing plate and the non compensating Zama carb will sort you out. The tank breather setup has just been left to "hang" in the middle and hasn't been mounted like the newer setups. There is a small chance that the non compensating carby may have been NOS and Australian market specific but I doubt it.
I hope that isn't as clear as mud 

The model number on my non compensating carby didn't show up under flash but it is located here inside the red circle. This is where "S16A 3YR" had been stamped into the alloy...


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## HandLogger (Jan 29, 2012)

*It's all helpful*

_What do they say a picture's worth, Matt?_ Cheers again.

I'm not a Stihl repair tech, so I guess there's really no shame in asking: _What in the hail is a "compensating" carburetor? _

I'm assuming that it's a way to compensate for air loss -- as in when the filter starts to clog up --but I'm not sure about that. If my guess is good, however, the compensation feature of the carburetor in this particular saw never worked very well. In fact, this saw never ran well when the filter got dirty.

Here's another photo of the saw's carburetor. _Is there anything here that shows more about the type of carburetor we have? _

View attachment 220425


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## MCW (Jan 29, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> _What do they say a picture's worth, Matt?_ Cheers again.
> 
> I'm not a Stihl repair tech, so I guess there's really no shame in asking: _What in the hail is a "compensating" carburetor? _
> 
> ...



Hey there isn't any shame in asking about what a compensating carby is. I had to ask the dealer about it myself a while back when he fixed it. You are exactly right though - as the filter blocks the pressure differential across the filter changes the tune as far as I am aware. Smart concept and it really is an excellent feature when working well but probably better suited to homeowners who have never heard of the word "maintenance". I have seen homeowner Stihl models with this feature that shouldn't even be running but were and still running well.
The photo you've attached of your current carby doesn't tell me much except that it's a compensating type  If you pull the couple of nuts and take the carby out it should have a model on it somewhere. They ARE the carbies that can cause grief though, I know that much. I can't remember the member here who was a Stihl Tech but there were certain models of compensating carbies worse than the others. I just can't remember which ones he said


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## HandLogger (Jan 29, 2012)

*Still Reading ...*

I'm still reading everything I can about this problem, Matt, but one thing's for sure. The carburetor on the saw I'm working on is a Zama *C1Q-S61D 434A*. 

I'm taking the saw back to the woodlot tomorrow, and I'll post about how that turns out. With any luck, having the [new] ability to turn the high-speed adjustment screw (*H*) will allow me to finally tune the carburetor. From what I've read, however, this particular carburetor can be a major league headache.


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## MCW (Jan 29, 2012)

Good luck and keep us posted for sure  Once they're running properly there is no better saw in my book. Not one single saw I have owned has paid for itself faster than my 200T...


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## HandLogger (Jan 29, 2012)

*I Think It's Carb Time!*

Okay, so I took the saw back to the woodlot today and attempted to adjust the Zama *C1Q-S61D 434A* that's the subject of this thread. I followed Page 32, _Adjusting the Carburetor_, as published in our MS 200T Instruction Manual, and, to make a long story a bit shorter, I was unable to get the saw to run smoothly. In short, the saw idles much too fast and the engine bogs when the trigger is squeezed. Yes, the saw starts and runs consistently now, but it runs like what the dog leaves on the lawn.

So it's looking like carburetor (carb) replacement time. I've read quite a bit about how these Zamas can be modified and/or repaired, but I simply don't have the time to spare right now. When I get the time, I'll buy a kit and take a crash course in Zama carb repair, but, for now, I'm looking for the fastest route.

We would rather invest our hard-earned in a better carb than the S61D, obviously, so I'm looking for suggestions from the AS.com membership. It was suggested, earlier in this thread, that we give a backing plate and a non-compensating carb (*C1Q-S16A*) -- both originally designed for an 020T -- a try, but there's really no way for me to verify whether or not this option will require modification to the choke and/or the accelerator linkage. Judging by the photos of the older carb setup, the linkage looks different to me.

Other than replacing the defective carb with another C1Q-S61D, _are there any other "bolt-on" carburetors available for the MS 200T?_ If anyone has been in the same situation and is sure that the carb they employed is a direct replacement, we would greatly appreciate a part number.

Thank you for your time


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## lone wolf (Jan 30, 2012)

Handlogger here is the part number for the new carb 1129 120 0653
What mounting plate does yours have the one with the hole for the little snorkel on the rt side?If so you are good to go.


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## HandLogger (Jan 30, 2012)

*C1Q-S169 Carburetor*

Thanks very much for the part number, Lone Wolf.

I looked into the part number and, as far as I can tell, it crosses to the Zama *C1Q-S169* carburetor (carb).

_How long have you been running this particular carb in your 200T, Lone Wolf?_

_Do you know whether or not it has the accelerator pump that apparently causes so many 200Ts to run poorly [or not at all]?_

I didn't get the part number in time to call our nearest Stihl dealer, but I will as soon as I can.

I really appreciate the help.


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## MCW (Jan 31, 2012)

I'll leave you in the capable hands of Lone Wolf Handlogger. I know from his previous posts on the 200T that he knows his stuff and will be of great help I reckon 
Good luck with it all and I can't honestly say if the linkages are different or not. The dealer only told me he changed the carb and backing plate, no mention of linkages but that's not to say they weren't changed.


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## lone wolf (Jan 31, 2012)

Handlogger can you send pics of the carb box area?


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Carburetor Air Box Area*

*MCW*: No worries. You mentioned having your "new" carburetor installed by a dealer, so I knew there was no way for you to know whether or not anything had to be modified to accommodate the non-compensating carb in your saw now, the Zama C1Q-S16A 3YR. Thanks for helping out. I wouldn't know what a compensating carb is, otherwise. 

*Lone Wolf*: I checked into the Stihl part number you gave me for a replacement carb -- *1129 120 0653* -- and the result was a dealer price of $95.70 (without sales tax). Obviously, this is yet another reason to be sure about which carb we should buy to replace the P.o.S. Zama C1Q-S61*D* 434A that's currently strangling this particular MS 200T. I also understand that you've been using the carb you recommended -- the one identified in the first sentence -- for more than six months. Considering that you run so many MS 200Ts, I'm sure that you put your new carb through its paces.

Here are the photos of our MS 200Ts air box area, as you requested, Lone Wolf:






And here's one the air box side of the C1Q-S61D 434A


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2012)

I replaced the accelerator pump in a S61D a month or two ago for a local tree guy and he told me yesterday that the saw is still running great. I think it was a $12 kit.

I'm not sure whether that is something you want to try or not, but it likely is what is causing your problem.


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Accelerator Pump*

What were the symptoms before you did the repair, *ZeroJunk*?


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> What were the symptoms before you did the repair, *ZeroJunk*?



The symtoms were poor or too fast idle, and a real bog in the transition from idle to full throttle.

It is a simple repair , but you need to be very careful in how you do it.

Take the throttle butterfly out being very careful not to bugger the screw. Take the throttle shaft out.

Take the welch plug out that covers the accelerator pump. The pump and spring will fall out.

Replace with the new parts in the kit.

When you replace the butterfly make sure it is in the exact same position.

Red Loctite the screw. 

I put a Phillips screw driver in a vice and placed it aginst the screw on the butterfly. Then I had a helper hold it in place while I tapped the end of the screw with a punch to spead it enough that it can't come out.

If it comes out there will be a mess.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *MCW*: No worries. You mentioned having your "new" carburetor installed by a dealer, so I knew there was no way for you to know whether or not anything had to be modified to accommodate the non-compensating carb in your saw now, the Zama C1Q-S16A 3YR. Thanks for helping out. I wouldn't know what a compensating carb is, otherwise.
> 
> *Lone Wolf*: I checked into the Stihl part number you gave me for a replacement carb -- *1129 120 0653* -- and the result was a dealer price of $95.70 (without sales tax). Obviously, this is yet another reason to be sure about which carb we should buy to replace the P.o.S. Zama C1Q-S61*D* 434A that's currently strangling this particular MS 200T. I also understand that you've been using the carb you recommended -- the one identified in the first sentence -- for more than six months. Considering that you run so many MS 200Ts, I'm sure that you put your new carb through its paces.
> 
> ...


That is the compensating type see the snorkel on the right side.That new one should fit on there.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> I replaced the accelerator pump in a S61D a month or two ago for a local tree guy and he told me yesterday that the saw is still running great. I think it was a $12 kit.
> 
> I'm not sure whether that is something you want to try or not, but it likely is what is causing your problem.



Try that first.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

Handlogger here is a pic of my new saw note the tank vent hose on the left 

View attachment 221123


Also check your impulse line located under the air box on the left side and see if it is connected .that can mimic carb problems!


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

no pics there


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> The symtoms were poor or too fast idle, and a real bog in the transition from idle to full throttle.
> 
> It is a simple repair , but you need to be very careful in how you do it.
> 
> ...



*ZeroJunk*: This sounds *a lot* like what we're going through with our sick MS 200T. After we modified the limiter cap assembly on the Zama C1Q-S61*D* carburetor in our sick saw, we reassembled it and attempted to tune it properly. Although the modification we completed worked very well, the carb is still [by all indications] not functioning properly. _Do you recall the part number and the source of your carburetor repair kit?_ 

_Are you aware of the accelerator pump issue that plagues some of these earlier Zama C1Q carburetors?_  

From all that I've read, which is quite a bit now, it seems that the o-ring on the accelerator pump piston wears out fairly quickly, which leads to actual carburetor body damage. Once the carb's body is damaged, it's new carb time. I've read some thread posts relating to eliminating the accelerator pump circuit altogether, but this particular modification seems to be meeting with mixed results.

Here's an MS 200T carburetor repair thread which includes posts by Lakeside Andy (Lakeside 53). He taught me more about all of our Stihl saws than I thought I'd ever know, so I tend to heed his advice.

200T carb thread with several Lakeside53 posts included: MS 200T Dies at Idle


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*No Pics?*

You're seeing none of the photos, *Lone Wolf*? 

I've logged in and out and can still see every photo. Hmmmm... opcorn:


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

I know I need glasses but this is crazy where are they?What post # are you referring to?


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

HL you may want to vac/pressure test that saw.It would eliminate a lot.


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *ZeroJunk*: This sounds *a lot* like what we're going through with our sick MS 200T. After we modified the limiter cap assembly on the Zama C1Q-S61*D* carburetor in our sick saw, we reassembled it and attempted to tune it properly. Although the modification we completed worked very well, the carb is still [by all indications] not functioning properly. _Do you recall the part number and the source of your carburetor repair kit?_
> 
> _Are you aware of the accelerator pump issue that plagues some of these earlier Zama C1Q carburetors?_
> 
> ...





1129 120 9700 

It was $8.50

Man says the saw is running great. The O ring and part of the plating on the brass plunger was worn away. I don't know how long it will last, but I don't see any logical reason why it won't last a long time, or any eveidence that the carb body was worn.

Anyhow, for $8.50 it is worth a try over $140 for a new carb.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> 1129 120 9700
> 
> It was $8.50
> 
> ...



I wonder how many thousands of those carbs have been tossed out because of that?


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> I wonder how many thousands of those carbs have been tossed out because of that?



Or entire saws.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Or entire saws.



Yup launched them into the great wide open.


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Photos anyone?*

Wow, I'm trying to create a good updated MS 200T Zama carburetor thread, so the fact that no one -- other than me -- is seeing photos in this thread is troubling.

_Are you guys seeing anything where the photos are supposed to be? Blue question marks? Green hyperlinks?_

I'd really like to get this rectified ... opcorn:


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Wow, I'm trying to create a good updated MS 200T Zama carburetor thread, so the fact that no one -- other than me -- is seeing photos in this thread is troubling.
> 
> _Are you guys seeing anything where the photos are supposed to be? Blue question marks? Green hyperlinks?_
> 
> I'd really like to get this rectified ... opcorn:



Not in this post.


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> I know I need glasses but this is crazy where are they? What post # are you referring to?



*Lone Wolf*: I'm referring to posts number *20* and *27* mainly.


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Hopefully the photos show up this time*

== *Post 27* has now been deleted from this thread (due to lack of critical photos). The text and, more importantly, the photos are added in this post ==


*Lone Wolf*: I'm going to add some photos that should clarify a couple of things about the MS 200T we're currently working on.


First, here's a photo of the carburetor area of the sick 200T. As you can see, unlike your new saw, there is no hose and no boot to vent the tank.







Next, here's a photo of the tank vent assembly on our 200T. It's not easy to see, but, if you look at the mid-left section of the photo, you should see a white "vent cap" at the end of a hose. Unlike your new saw, the vent cap is merely tucked under the air box.







Here's a photo of the impulse line. This shot was taken while the saw was initially disassembled to modify the limiter cap assembly on the carb's high-speed (*H*) adjustment screw.








To clarify for anyone else with 200T carb troubles, the "modification" I'm referring to here involves a limiter cap assembly that was added to the carburetor design by the carb's manufacturer (Zama). This design was added, presumably to satisfy EPA regulations, to restrict the travel of the high-speed (*H*) adjustment screw. In effect, this assembly restricts the saw owner from being able to tune their own saw properly. In fact, it wouldn't allow the high-speed screw to be turned 3/4 CCW (from full CW stop), as called for in Stihl's published carburetor adjustment procedure.


Here's what the limiter cap assembly looked like before the modification.







Here's what the limiter cap assembly looks like after some careful Dremel work is completed. Note that the steel post and the skirt have both been cut away, which allows the plastic limiter cap -- which was placed over the high-speed adjustment screw by Zama -- to turn with the adjustment screw. In short, the black plastic limiter cap no longer restricts and/or hinders the rotation of the carburetor's high-speed adjustment screw.







View attachment 221182

View attachment 221183

View attachment 221181

View attachment 221195

View attachment 221184


Hope this helps other MS 200T owners with this nasty Zama carburetor issue,
HandLogger


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Replacing the butterfly*



ZeroJunk said:


> The symtoms were poor or too fast idle, and a real bog in the transition from idle to full throttle.
> 
> It is a simple repair , but you need to be very careful in how you do it.
> 
> ...



*ZeroJunk*: How do you go about making sure that the butterfly is replaced _"...in the exact same position?"_ opcorn:


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 1, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *ZeroJunk*: How do you go about making sure that the butterfly is replaced _"...in the exact same position?"_ opcorn:



You can go by the mouse hole in relation to the idle orifice, or mark it. The butterfly is not round, so if you are off much it will not close all the way. And, just a hair will make it idle too high. It wants to turn when you tighten the screw.

In looking at your photo, does it have a nipple on the shaft to keep it in place? The one I repaired did not.

Never mind , that's the choke side.


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## lone wolf (Feb 1, 2012)

What is the compression reading on that saw?And try fixing that carb first if no good pres / vac test then as a last resort buy a new one . To bad you cant stick a known good runner on and see what happens!


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Marking the position of the butterfly valve*



ZeroJunk said:


> You can go by the mouse hole in relation to the idle orifice, or mark it. The butterfly is not round, so if you are off much it will not close all the way. And, just a hair will make it idle too high. It wants to turn when you tighten the screw.
> 
> In looking at your photo, does it have a nipple on the shaft to keep it in place? The one I repaired did not.
> 
> Never mind , that's the choke side.



We own and manage forest land, *ZeroJunk*. I'm not a Stihl repair tech, so I'm not familiar with all of the parts of a Zama diaphragm carburetor. 

_Do you happen to have any photos or diagrams of the parts you're referring to?_ I'm familiar with the butterfly valve on the engine side of the carb, but the "mouse hole" and the "idle orifice" are terms I'm unfamiliar with.

Thanks for your time,
HandLogger


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## HandLogger (Feb 1, 2012)

*Compression and/or vacuum testing*



lone wolf said:


> What is the compression reading on that saw? And try fixing that carb first if no good pres / vac test then as a last resort buy a new one . Too bad you cant stick a known good runner on and see what happens!



_Do you have to own a special tester (from Stihl) to test the compression of the MS 200T, *Lone Wolf*? _

_Does the vacuum test require a Stihl test system of some kind? _


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 2, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> We own and manage forest land, *ZeroJunk*. I'm not a Stihl repair tech, so I'm not familiar with all of the parts of a Zama diaphragm carburetor.
> 
> _Do you happen to have any photos or diagrams of the parts you're referring to?_ I'm familiar with the butterfly valve on the engine side of the carb, but the "mouse hole" and the "idle orifice" are terms I'm unfamiliar with.
> 
> ...



The fuel that the saw idles off of comes out of one, two, or maybe even three tiny holes, depending on the carb, in the barrel of the carburetor on the engine side of the butterfly. The main fuel nozzle is on the far side of the butterfly from the engine.

If I remember correctly that carb has one idle hole in the barrel for fuel to enter and a mousehole centered over it in the butterfly so it can get some air to atomize it.


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## lone wolf (Feb 2, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> _Do you have to own a special tester (from Stihl) to test the compression of the MS 200T, *Lone Wolf*? _
> 
> _Does the vacuum test require a Stihl test system of some kind? _



A snap on tester for comp and a mitivac 8500 for pres/vac


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## HandLogger (Feb 2, 2012)

*Thanks for the carburetor primer*



ZeroJunk said:


> The fuel that the saw idles off of comes out of one, two, or maybe even three tiny holes, depending on the carb, in the barrel of the carburetor on the engine side of the butterfly. The main fuel nozzle is on the far side of the butterfly from the engine.
> 
> If I remember correctly that carb has one idle hole in the barrel for fuel to enter and a mousehole centered over it in the butterfly so it can get some air to atomize it.



Thanks for the helpful information, *ZeroJunk*. 

I'll take a real close look for what you're describing the next time I have the carburetor off of the MS 200T we're working on.


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## HandLogger (Feb 2, 2012)

*Test Equipment*



lone wolf said:


> A snap on tester for comp and a mitivac 8500 for pres/vac



I'll check into the test equipment you've mentioned as soon as I can, *Lone Wolf*.

I'm not sure what it is exactly, but the Mityvac 8500 sounds a little imposing.

Thanks again,
HandLogger


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## pgg (Feb 2, 2012)

bah, ditzy 200T's, gone done a bearing, caused the seal to leak because of the extra slop, symptoms are running like a sick dog and hi revving idle no matter what the carb setting, the shagged bearing you can tap out easily with a socket or suchlike, easy to test the seals, seal the exhaust port with rubber and backing plate, just seal the inlet port with your thumb, slap your tyre pump to the impulse hose and stick some air in, you'll soon see the leak if there is one


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## lone wolf (Feb 2, 2012)

Good for a pressure test .But to test the seals you need to put a vac on them because that is when a crank seal fails under vac.


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## pgg (Feb 2, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Good for a pressure test .But to test the seals you need to put a vac on them because that is when a crank seal fails under vac.



hehe, no need, if they leak under pressure then it won't matter if they leak under vacuum or not ...


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## lone wolf (Feb 2, 2012)

Troubleshooting Air Leaks

Once you've found a leak, fix it and retest. If it passes a pressure test, apply a vacuum. When it comes to leaks, vacuum is just as important as pressure. Some engines will hold 6 - 8 lbs pressure, but not be able to hold a vacuum. If you find this problem, suspect the main bearing seals.


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## HandLogger (Feb 2, 2012)

*Non-accelerator pump carbs for the MS200T*



> Definitely split the muffler and scrub it out, see if it responds to the trigger then, does sound like a blocked exhaust, also crank the lo AND hi jets rich as hell then gradually lean the hi back in so she's revving out good, fiddle the lo as well, might be just a case of tuning to get the little tart responding. P.S. non-accel carbs work perfectly on a 200T also



*pgg*: Above, please see a quote taken from a post that you made back in September of 2010 on a thread called about to toss the 200T over the hill.... Your last post to this thread indicates that you're having bearing and seal problems with your 200T, but I'd still like to ask you if, in the past, you tossed out a Zama C1Q-XXXX accelerator pump model for a Walbro, or perhaps for a Zama without an accelerator pump? 

Please let us know how you know that _"...non-accel carbs work perfectly on a 200T..."_ 

The new carbs called for by Stihl are just too expensive, if they're simply the same design as the Zama C1Q-S61D (accelerator pump model) that's presently on our MS 200T. 

Thanks for your time opcorn:


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## pgg (Feb 2, 2012)

hey yeah, there's non-accel pump Zamas as well as WT walbros from 020T's, the 020T and 200T stuff, linkages etc.. all interchanges, you can tell the accel pump carbs from the hole over the butterfly shaft, also despite what some say, a fixed jet carb works brilliantly on a 200T, just need the right jet size in it to stop it from over-revving lean


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## HandLogger (Feb 2, 2012)

*Which carb would you take a chance on*

My main concern, *pgg*, is that we'll buy the [read: expensive] carburetor presently recommended by Stihl -- the Zama C1Q-S126A -- only to find out that it's design is just as flawed as the carb that we're replacing, the Zama C1Q-S61D. For that reason, I'm all for trying out a non-accelerator pump carb.

It was recommended, earlier in this thread, that we might give a Zama C1Q-S16A a go. Apparently, it's a non-compensating carburetor intended for a Stihl 020T that will work in an MS 200T. I'm no Stihl repair tech, by any stretch, so I couldn't say whether or not the choke and/or the throttle linkages we presently have will work out or not -- and neither can the fellow that recommended the carb because he had the work done by a dealer. At this point, I also couldn't tell you whether or not the older version -- the C1Q-S16A -- is a non-accelerator pump model, but my feeling is that it's not. If we went this route, obviously, we would have to also get a new airbox backing plate designed for the older carb.

Having written that, I'm not opposed to trying a Walbro carburetor, either. I'm not sure what would have to be modified to get one to work in our sick MS 200T, but I'd love to read about it.

If you were replacing an S61D today, _which type of carb would you buy and why?_ We would also be much obliged if you would care to comment on what modifications would have to be made to get the replacement carb to function properly.

Cheers


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## a. palmer jr. (Feb 3, 2012)

MCW said:


> Hi mate. No dramas for the help.
> I didn't actually do the swap but one of the local Stihl dealers did. They did the mandatory epoxying of the accelerator pump etc but the saw continued to get out of tune, over rev etc etc. It was really running like a pig. Anyway I took it back in to the dealer and he replaced the carby and backing plate to an older setup he had in his workshop for free. It has not missed a beat since  He told me that my issues had him stumped and he works on a lot of 200T's. They are a very popular saw here for fruit tree pruning and contract pruning companies.
> 
> I'll try to get some pictures and more information up ASAP.



Does the 020T have the same carb problems or is it different?


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## pgg (Feb 3, 2012)

choke and throttle linkages are plug and play between 020T and 200T, the backing plate isn't an issue, the "compensator" is just a snorkle poking into the airbox, a normal non-compensator carb lid fits, you just seal up the hole in the backing plate


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## MCW (Feb 3, 2012)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Does the 020T have the same carb problems or is it different?



No it didn't have the same problems. I've been led to believe that Stihl installed a more "advanced" carby on the 200T's and created more problems than they fixed.

I'm glad you got the photo linking sorted out Handlogger. Sorry I didn't get back to your PM to help out sooner.
ppg is correct in saying you can simply block the backing plate hole if going from a compensating carby to a non compensating carby.

Lone Wolf is also correct in asking about compression. My local dealer has told me before that he has seen 200T's with what looks to be carby problems be 100% fixed with a new ring and an increase in compression. This is a known Stihl dealer fix on low compression and well used 200T's. Our area has shown up a lot of 200T issues and this dealer in particular has a very good handle on them. Basically all of the 200T's in our area are used for fruit tree pruning (mainly massive almond orchards) and for months on end are running 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. One particular large corporate farm buys 20 at a time.


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## HandLogger (Feb 3, 2012)

MCW said:


> Lone Wolf is also correct in asking about compression. My local dealer has told me before that he has seen 200T's with what looks to be carby problems be 100% fixed with a new ring and an increase in compression. This is a known Stihl dealer fix on low compression and well used 200T's. Our area has shown up a lot of 200T issues and this dealer in particular has a very good handle on them. Basically all of the 200T's in our area are used for fruit tree pruning (mainly massive almond orchards) and for months on end are running 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. One particular large corporate farm buys 20 at a time.



Thanks for getting back on the thread, *MCW*. Although the MS 200T we're currently trying to repair has seen its fair share of use, you definitely use your top-handle saws a lot more than we do. We manage forest land for timber production mostly, so we use a top-handle saw when we're up in a given tree or when we have windthrow issues. We also fell timber, and produce cordwood on occasion, so we use a variety of saws depending on the job at hand. 

The point is that -- although a reliable high-performance top-handle saw is critical at times -- we don't operate them all day long. That's why I was surprised by the failure of this particular MS 200T. It certainly hasn't been used as hard as our other Stihl saws, and I know that it's been maintained just as carefully. The 200T is just the right saw for the job -- when it runs well -- but it's clearly the least reliable Stihl saw model we've owned.


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## lone wolf (Feb 3, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Thanks for getting back on the thread, *MCW*. Although the MS 200T we're currently trying to repair has seen its fair share of use, you definitely use your top-handle saws a lot more than we do. We manage forest land for timber production mostly, so we use a top-handle saw when we're up in a given tree or when we have windthrow issues. We also fell timber, and produce cordwood on occasion, so we use a variety of saws depending on the job at hand.
> 
> The point is that -- although a reliable high-performance top-handle saw is critical at times -- we don't operate them all day long. That's why I was surprised by the failure of this particular MS 200T. It certainly hasn't been used as hard as our other Stihl saws, and I know that it's been maintained just as carefully. The 200T is just the right saw for the job -- when it runs well -- but it's clearly the least reliable Stihl saw model we've owned.


The carbs are made in China you know.


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## HandLogger (Feb 3, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> The carbs are made in China you know.



Made in China by a company that's [apparently] owned by *Andreas Stihl AG & Co. * 

Stihl made their choice. I'm merely giving honest feedback to others suffering with what is clearly an issue related to a poor design choice. That's not their customers' fault.


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## a. palmer jr. (Feb 3, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> The carbs are made in China you know.



As expensive as these saws are, why do they have to buy anything from China? I'm sure a Walbro wouldn't break the bank, or are they making them there too?


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## lone wolf (Feb 3, 2012)

a. palmer jr. said:


> As expensive as these saws are, why do they have to buy anything from China? I'm sure a Walbro wouldn't break the bank, or are they making them there too?



I just dont have a lot of trust in China made stuff!Jap made is much better .


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## HandLogger (Feb 4, 2012)

*Walbro Carb on an MS 200T?*



> Talking 200T's, here's some vids of a 12" bush setup, a contract pruning saw. Stock engine running a *Walbro non-accel pump( ie - non problem) carb off an 023*, muffler restrictor removed, 1/4" 7 tooth sprocket.




*pgg:* I just read through an older thread entitled 200T Build. In Post #57, you mentioned using a Walbro carburetor off an 023 [apparently] on a stock MS 200T. If so, _*please let us know which Walbro carb you used and how it all worked out*._

Thanks for your time


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## pgg (Feb 4, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *pgg:* I just read through an older thread entitled 200T Build. In Post #57, you mentioned using a Walbro carburetor off an 023 [apparently] on a stock MS 200T. If so, _*please let us know which Walbro carb you used and how it all worked out*._
> 
> Thanks for your time



you need old spare carbs laying around and plenty of bits and pieces to be converting carbs, the 023 carb was a WT286A, ran sweet, but you need to swap in the 200T linkages re-position fuel spigot and plug up impulse holes etc.. (zama stuff won't fit walbro stuff either) There's nothing wrong with Zama carbs, walbro carbs are no less or more reliable, the troublesome accel-pump B.S. you don't want or need in the real world, a good plug and play carb for a 200T is a CIQ S16A55P which has no accel pump,(good luck on finding one though) I'm running one at the moment, it's off an 020T and must be getting on to ten years old, no troubles with it whatsoever


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## parrisw (Feb 4, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> _What do they say a picture's worth, Matt?_ Cheers again.
> 
> I'm not a Stihl repair tech, so I guess there's really no shame in asking: _What in the hail is a "compensating" carburetor? _
> 
> ...



The best thing I have found to do is to just use the existing carb and block off the accell pump, only cost you a little time and a few pennies of JB Weld. Take out the brass plug covering the throttle shaft, remove butterfly, remove throttle shaft, take out plunger and spring, take off o-ring, fill o-ring groove with JB coat some on the piston, slide back in hole with no spring, now clean off excess JB that oozed out, take off the small aluminum welch plug on the opposite face of the carb and now fill that cavity with JB weld, let cure over night, put back together.


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## HandLogger (Feb 5, 2012)

*I've read a lot about this now ...*

... and it would seem that there are several different possible causes of our MS 200T issues (high speed idling and bogging at trigger pull). At this point, however, I believe we'll order a *Zama C1Q-S16A*. Considering that our current carburetor -- the Zama C1Q-S61D 434A -- has an accelerator pump, it seems highly advisable to have a more reliable carb on hand. That way, even if our problems are caused by a different failure -- i.e., bad seals or bad rings -- we're prepared in advance for the dreaded Zama carb accelerator pump issue that seems so common among the 200T owners on the AS.com forum.

After the new carburetor is installed, I'll take the saw back to the woodlot, adjust it and report back with the results. In the end, I hope we'll have an up to date thread for other MS 200T owners to research. 

Thanks to all for their time and their thoughts. 

I'll be back, 
HandLogger


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## HandLogger (Feb 5, 2012)

*Update*

UPDATE: (1) Zama C1Q-S16A found and ordered. Hope to have the carburetor in hand by the end of this coming week (by Feb 10, 2012) and installed by the weekend.

Once again, I will update this thread with the results once the new carb has been installed and adjusted.


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## parrisw (Feb 6, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> UPDATE: (1) Zama C1Q-S16A found and ordered. Hope to have the carburetor in hand by the end of this coming week (by Feb 10, 2012) and installed by the weekend.
> 
> Once again, I will update this thread with the results once the new carb has been installed and adjusted.



Nice! How much time does the saw have on it? If it still run erratic a little after, don't keep running it, don't want to score the cylinder from it keep going lean, the crank seals and intake boot, impluse, can and will leak on a high hour saw.


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## parrisw (Feb 6, 2012)

High hour 200T pressure testing. This is how to check. 

Take the tank off, install intake boot and the plastic clamp, you can see the old intake boot leaking like crazy, and the crank seal too. This saw ran like crap and had a good carb. Crank seals on these are a real pain in the ass to take out.







Table of 200's being repaired.


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## HandLogger (Feb 6, 2012)

*Specifics*

*parrisw*: The MS 200T we're working on was purchased in 2007, and is not used on a daily basis. We manage forest land, so the saw is used only when we're up in a tree or whenever we have windthrow (killer tree) issues. Consequently, our larger Stihl saws get used more than our top handle saws ... but if I had to guess, I'd say that this particular saw has less than 500 hours of use on it.

If the saw doesn't adjust properly after the new carb is installed and adjusted, we will definitely begin the testing process -- and *thanks a lot* for the great photos!

Here's a photo of the saw we're presently working on:







It was cleaned very thoroughly when it's factory carb -- the Zama C1Q-S61D 434A -- was removed and modified.


Cheers, 
HandLogger


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## parrisw (Feb 6, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *parrisw*: The MS 200T we're working on was purchased in 2007, and is not used on a daily basis. We manage forest land, so the saw is used only when we're up in a tree or whenever we have windthrow (killer tree) issues. Consequently, our larger Stihl saws get used more than our top handle saws ... but if I had to guess, I'd say that this particular saw has less than 500 hours of use on it.
> 
> If the saw doesn't adjust properly after the new carb is installed and adjusted, we will definitely begin the testing process -- and *thanks a lot* for the great photos!
> 
> ...



That looks like a nice well cared for saw. 

I bought a new 200T for myself a few years ago, and I'm guessing less then 10 hours on it, I don't use it allot, was just up a tree today with it, great saws. I keep wondering how long the carb in it will last.


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## a. palmer jr. (Feb 6, 2012)

So, is an 020T preferred to the 200T if both were in equal condition?


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## lone wolf (Feb 6, 2012)

a. palmer jr. said:


> So, is an 020T preferred to the 200T if both were in equal condition?



Negative on that!The MS200T has bigger tranfers and runs a little stronger.


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## lone wolf (Feb 6, 2012)

Handlogger how do you know your carb is bad and not a vac leak on the saw? :confused2:


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## HandLogger (Feb 6, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Handlogger, how do you know that your carb is bad and that there's not a vacuum leak on the saw?



There are a few reasons why we are investing in the carburetor first, *Lone Wolf*: 

When we first began having trouble with this particular MS 200T, it could only be rectified by having a super clean air filter installed. This indicated to us that the saw was air-starved (running rich). As I wrote about earlier in this thread, the high-speed (*H*) adjustment screw on the factory carburetor -- a Zama C1Q-S61D 434A -- was limited at the factory with a plastic cap, a steel post and a "skirt" that is cast into the body of the carb. This "limiting assembly," as I call it, was cut away to free the H adjustment screw for more adjustability and, although this modification did get the saw to run better, it did not restore proper saw operation.

According to what I've read on the AS.com forum, among others, the Zama accelerator pump model carbs -- like the S61D we now have -- are notorious for malfunctioning, so, even if our carb is still good, it will give us a major headache eventually. Add this to more than one recommendation _"to swap out what you have for a known good carb,"_ and we thought it wise to get ourselves a reliable carb *without an accelerator pump*. The carb we've got on order -- a new Zama C1Q-S16A -- cost us just over $60.00 (shipped), so, when compared to what a replacement carb from the Stihl dealer would've cost us (over $100.00), we decided to invest in a _"known good carb."_

Lastly, we don't own the test equipment that's been mentioned in some of the forum posts. If the carb we have on order doesn't end up rectifying our issue, we will begin researching test equipment. At this point, however, it seems logical to try a reliable replacement carburetor.

By the way, it's a long haul for us to get to a Stihl dealer with a certified repair tech, so we do have an interest in becoming self-sufficient when it comes to our Stihl saws.

Hope this clarifies what we're thinking,
HandLogger


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## belgian (Feb 6, 2012)

I like your thinking, because of the low hour runtime. My 200 had problems with the accelerator type carb already after 50 h or so. I repaired the O-ring that solved the problem for now, but if it occurs again, I'll go the JB weld route to block off the pump circuit, like Parris indicated.

I am glad we are able to solve the problem ourself; I'd hate to add more $$$$ in a Stihl top dollar saw, because of a obviously poor choice for a chinese crap carburator by Stihl. Guess they can afford it.


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## Zippy (Feb 6, 2012)

*MS200T accel circuit*

After reading advice on this forum I have fixed several MS200T's with ranges of poor throttle response from sometimes bogs on accel to won't run at all.

The fix that worked for me each time was the JB weld in the accel circuit (remove butterfly and shaft, welch plug, piston, spring and glue it up etc).

I passed the advice on to a mech who looks after saws for an arborists and he's had good success putting thick grease into the accel piston to block it. If you're squeamish about jb-welding a carb (and it doesn't seem right first time you try it out) you could go for grease and see if it does the trick.

Maybe I shouldn't assume this is the answer for your saw just because it worked for mine, but a dollop of grease into the accel piston would take less than 15 mins to try out and you can always wash it out after if you choose to.


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## SCHallenger (Feb 6, 2012)

*MS 200T carb issue*

Subscribing!!


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 6, 2012)

Just curious, did they correct that in the MS201 ?


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## HandLogger (Feb 6, 2012)

belgian said:


> I like your thinking, because of the low hour runtime. My 200 had problems with the accelerator type carb already after 50 h or so. I repaired the O-ring that solved the problem for now, but if it occurs again, I'll go the JB weld route to block off the pump circuit, like Parris indicated.
> 
> I am glad we are able to solve the problem ourself; I'd hate to add more $$$$ in a Stihl top dollar saw, because of a obviously poor choice for a chinese crap carburator by Stihl. Guess they can afford it.



Cheers, *Belgian*. 

Yes, we went ahead and ordered the _"piston repair kit,"_ as well. IF the new C1Q-S16A solves our problem, we'll go ahead and try the accelerator pump repair kit on our existing C1Q-S61D. That way, we should end up knowing exactly what caused our issues in the first place. It won't hurt having the original carb, albeit a patched up carb, around for the future either. 

The JB Weld fix has met with mixed results, based on what I've read, but -- if the repaired S61D gives us trouble down the road -- I'll be dialing Mister J.B. Weld's number, no doubt.

By the way, you're right about the MS 361 and the beers. I was in Oostende, back in the day, and the beers _"in the square"_ were pretty damn tasty.


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## HandLogger (Feb 6, 2012)

SCHallenger said:


> Subscribing!!



Welcome aboard, *SCHallenger*!

If you're interested in knowing more about 200 issues, this is a pretty good place to be.


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## MCW (Feb 7, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Just curious, did they correct that in the MS201 ?



I'd hope so as Stihl would be stupid if they didn't.

Sorry to seem like I've hijacked this thread here but I did a comparo between a new 200T and 201T here with a lot of photos of the carbies etc. I can see why the 200T's have become a hot item as although the 201T is a worthy saw it doesn't hold a candle to a 200T once the 200T's spark arrestor has been removed...

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/182225.htm


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## HandLogger (Feb 7, 2012)

*About your "old" MS 200T*

*MCW*: I just watched the video you posted and everything looks great. I was wondering if the older MS 200T shown in the comparison was the one that your dealer changed from an accelerator pump Zama to the non-accelerator pump carb -- the C1Q-S16A 3YR? In other words, _is that the saw you wrote about back on Page 1 of this thread?_

If it is, I'm certainly looking forward to getting our MS 200T running with the Zama new C1Q-S16A we have on order. The older saw in the comparison video seemed to eat the MS 201T's lunch, mate. :msp_thumbup:

See ya when I see ya,
HandLogger


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## MCW (Feb 7, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> *MCW*: I just watched the video you posted and everything looks great. I was wondering if the older MS 200T shown in the comparison was the one that your dealer changed from an accelerator pump Zama to the non-accelerator pump carb -- the C1Q-S16A 3YR? In other words, _is that the saw you wrote about back on Page 1 of this thread?_
> 
> If it is, I'm certainly looking forward to getting our MS 200T running with the Zama new C1Q-S16A we have on order. The older saw in the comparison video seemed to eat the MS 201T's lunch, mate. :msp_thumbup:
> 
> ...



Yeah mate it is the same saw in the video that had the carby change. It runs very well


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## lone wolf (Feb 7, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> There are a few reasons why we are investing in the carburetor first, *Lone Wolf*:
> 
> When we first began having trouble with this particular MS 200T, it could only be rectified by having a super clean air filter installed. This indicated to us that the saw was air-starved (running rich). As I wrote about earlier in this thread, the high-speed (*H*) adjustment screw on the factory carburetor -- a Zama C1Q-S61D 434A -- was limited at the factory with a plastic cap, a steel post and a "skirt" that is cast into the body of the carb. This "limiting assembly," as I call it, was cut away to free the H adjustment screw for more adjustability and, although this modification did get the saw to run better, it did not restore proper saw operation.
> 
> ...


The super clean Air filter thing to me indicates a manifold intake boot leak!
Can you get another carb to try and try it with a restricted air filter?Also you should vac test that saw!


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## HandLogger (Feb 7, 2012)

*New Zama*

According to the UPS tracking data, the new Zama C1Q-S16A should arrive late tomorrow, *Lone Wolf*. If aligning the new carb doesn't take care of the symptoms, the next step will be trying to figure out how to test the saw for leaks.

With all of the complaints I've read about the accelerator pump models, I'll be very glad to have the new non-accelerator pump carb (the S16A), regardless.

_This thread will be maintained until this issue is resolved_,
HandLogger


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> According to the UPS tracking data, the new Zama C1Q-S16A should arrive late tomorrow, *Lone Wolf*. If aligning the new carb doesn't take care of the symptoms, the next step will be trying to figure out how to test the saw for leaks.
> 
> With all of the complaints I've read about the accelerator pump models, I'll be very glad to have the new non-accelerator pump carb (the S16A), regardless.
> 
> ...



opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## MCW (Feb 8, 2012)

I hope the new carby works or I'm gonna look down right silly


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

MCW said:


> I hope the new carby works or I'm gonna look down right silly



Naw you wont! That's why I have more than one of those saws so I could swap and see first.


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## SCHallenger (Feb 8, 2012)

*MS200T & carb issues*



HandLogger said:


> Welcome aboard, *SCHallenger*!
> 
> If you're interested in knowing more about 200 issues, this is a pretty good place to be.



Thanks Handlogger! I'm real interested & finding this REAL interesting. Could be that I may end up with one. FWIW, I have some located.


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## Dan Forsh (Feb 8, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Naw you wont! That's why I have more than one of those saws so I could swap and see first.



More than 1 would be 2, you've got 6! What do you do juggle with em!


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Look what just fell off of the Big Brown Truck!*

Im pretty swamped today, but I wanted to post a few photos of what the UPS man just dropped off ...

















*Now, I just need to make the time to install and adjust the thing. I'll be back!* :msp_wink:


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Dan Forsh said:


> More than 1 would be 2, you've got 6! What do you do juggle with em!



9 just did not change the number yet!


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Im pretty swamped today, but I wanted to post a few photos of what the UPS man just dropped off ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:msp_thumbup:opcorn: That is a very low hour saw right there!


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Replacement Under Way*

These two might appear to be fraternal Chinese twins ...







*but*... here's the difference in appearance. The C1Q-S61D (on left) has the compensator snorkel/elbow on top, while the C1Q-S16A (on right) does not.

Also, note that the -S61D has the small pill-shaped cover above the center of the choke opening, and the -S16A does not -- _hallelujah, no friggin' accelerator pump!!_ :msp_thumbup:







*... now how does all of this go back together? *


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> That is a very low hour saw right there!



The nature of our work doesn't require top-handle saws on a daily basis, so our bigger saws see more use -- but they are all meticulously cared for.


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Im here ,you got it?


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Dont forget the two metal inserts that go on before the carb.


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*TWO Metal Inserts*



lone wolf said:


> Dont forget the two metal inserts that go on before the carb.



Do you happen to have any photos. *Lone Wolf*? I know we have one metal (gold) insert that goes over the two carburetor mounting bolts -- before the carb is mounted -- _but where is the second one? _


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Do you happen to have any photos. *Lone Wolf*? I know we have one metal (gold) insert that goes over the two carburetor mounting bolts -- before the carb is mounted -- _but where is the second one? _



PM with my my cell number coming


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Sent it 
The other is a gold ring that goes in side the rubber boot same general place as the one you mentioned


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Page 10* of the MS 200, 200T (1129) Parts Diagrams shows Reference ID *3* as a "sleeve" and Reference ID *10* as a "washer." I know that both are (gold) metal and, more importantly, that both are in the saw. They both came out when the saw was cleaned for the (*H*) high-speed adjustment screw modification [which was covered early in this thread], but they did not come out when we just installed the new C1Q-S16A carb.

I believe I got the parts diagram from the link in your signature, *Lone Wolf*, so we should be on the same page (eventually). opcorn:


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Almost there ...*

Just like it belongs in there ...








... _but what about that compensator style backing plate?_ What would you folks recommend for the compensator snorkel hole (upper-right of backing plate)? 







*Does it have to be absolutely air tight?* opcorn:


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Anybody?*

_Does the snorkel hole in the upper-right hand corner of the compensator backing plate have to be sealed air-tight?_

If I've confused anyone, please see the last photo I posted. The hole I'm referring to is in the upper-right corner of the backing plate. opcorn:


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> _Does the snorkel hole in the upper-right hand corner of the compensator backing plate have to be sealed air-tight?_
> 
> If I've confused anyone, please see the last photo I posted. The hole I'm referring to is in the upper-right corner of the backing plate. opcorn:



Not to test run it ,but you want to seal it or get the proper one it will suck dirt in.


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Hey where did you go is it running yet?


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## Dan Forsh (Feb 8, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Hey where did you go is it running yet?



The swine!! He's teasing us


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Dan Forsh said:


> The swine!! He's teasing us



We prob want to know as much as he does!


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## Dan Forsh (Feb 8, 2012)

He's probably busy cutting wood with it, if it hadn't worked he'd have been back by now opcorn:


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Dan Forsh said:


> He's probably busy cutting wood with it, if it hadn't worked he'd have been back by now opcorn:



Its nite time here now.


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## Dan Forsh (Feb 8, 2012)

it's Thursday here, but I'd still be running the bugger if I'd just found the fix after all that.


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*So far, so good ...*

The saw runs 1000% better than it has in weeks. I'll post photos later, but I wanted to get back to the thread with the progress in the meantime ... and, *yes*, I did do some flashlight windthrow cleanup with the saw, now that it's running. 

In the meantime, I'd love to read about how some of the MS 200T owners on the AS.com forum board like to tune the carburetors.


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> The saw runs 1000% better than it has in weeks. I'll post photos later, but I wanted to get back to the thread with the progress in the meantime ... and, *yes*, I did do some flashlight windthrow cleanup with the saw, now that it's running.
> 
> In the meantime, I'd love to read about how some of the MS 200T owners on the AS.com forum board like to tune the carburetors.



Don't forget the hole in the mounting plate.Now pull the screen from the muffler and tach it to 13500- 14000 rpms


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*If you're there ...*

... please check your PM Inbox, *Lone Wolf.*


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## lone wolf (Feb 8, 2012)

Saw Carb Tuning

Follow this to tune your carb idle gets set at 2800, final adjustment will be 13,500 rpm with tach on the h needle.


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## TonyRumore (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> In the meantime, I'd love to read about how some of the MS 200T owners on the AS.com forum board like to tune the carburetors.



I screwed with my 200T carb for hours/days/weeks on end and finally had to throw in the towel and just buy a new one. Runs great now.
That's the first time that a carb has ever beat me into submission. I'm sorry I let you all down. I had to tap out like a little girl.


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Thanks again, ...*

... *Lone Wolf.* I'll go through the link you posted as soon as I get a chance to.


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Welcome Aboard*



TonyRumore said:


> I screwed with my 200T carb for hours on end and finally had to throw in the towel and just buy a new one. Runs great now.
> That's the first time that a carb has ever beat me into submission.



Take a look at this thread when you get a chance, *Tony*. The whole thing is dedicated to an Ongoing MS 200T Carburetor Issue.

By the way, a new carb was installed earlier today, so I'm looking for tips on how to tune the new carb, a Zama C1Q-S16A.

Have a good one, 
HandLogger


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## walexa07 (Feb 8, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Take a look at this thread when you get a chance, *Tony*. The whole thing is dedicated to an Ongoing MS 200T Carburetor Issue.
> 
> By the way, a new carb was installed earlier today, so I'm looking for tips on how to tune the new carb, a Zama C1Q-S16A.
> 
> ...



Did you have to change any throttle/choke linkages with the C1Q-S16A? Thanks.

Waylan


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*New Carb Linkage*

No, *Waylan*, the linkage in our saw didn't require any modifications to accommodate the new Zama C1Q-S16A.


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## HandLogger (Feb 8, 2012)

*Backing Plate and Grommet*

So here's how I handled the compensator air box backing plate issue ... As you can see, Permatex RTV can be a wonderful thing.








And here's the C1Q-S61D's adjustment grommet. With the new Zama C1Q-S16A in place, the old grommet will allow for idle speed and (*H*) adjustments -- but not (*L*).







*Has anyone reading this ever found a grommet for the Zama C1Q-S16A?*


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## MCW (Feb 9, 2012)

Great news Handlogger. Keep us informed and glad to hear it all went together fine. That Permatex is useful stuff 



lone wolf said:


> 9 just did not change the number yet!



Thats just plain greedy. No wonder nobody can find any 200T's for sale anymore 
Speaking of which a local almond orchard has about a dozen burnt up 200T's in their shed. I may have to suck up to the manager...


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## MCW (Feb 9, 2012)

Back again Bill with more photos and part numbers.
I'd never taken much notice of my new 200T and hadn't realised it had a different H/L grommet.
Anyway as with basically every Stihl part it has a part number stamped on the back of the grommet 

New 200T at the front and older one at the back...






Older grommet...










The part number is 1129 123 750 2 which is actually listed as being off of a 020/020T according to Stihl's Mediacat.
Hope that helps mate


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## lone wolf (Feb 9, 2012)

HL get a new plate I dont think the silicone is good there at all.You spent good money to fix it finish it right!:msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:


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## HandLogger (Feb 9, 2012)

*Permatex RTV*



lone wolf said:


> HL get a new plate I dont think the silicone is good there at all.You spent good money to fix it finish it right!:msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:



Using the RTV to "plug" the hole in the compensator style air box backing plate was suggested earlier in this thread. At this point, I'm pretty much sold on the non-accelerator pump carburetor -- the Zama *C1Q-S16A* -- so I don't think we'll be going back ... and, if we do, it will only be to get us by while we locate another -S16A.

By the way, if you watch MCW's 200T vs 201T comparison video (Post 16), you'll see that his older -S16A equipped MS 200T kicks the dog doo out of Stihl's _"new and improved"_ top-handle professional saw. It's still early days for us, but, so far, the -S16A looks like a better carburetor option for the MS 200T.

Thanks for your posts,
HandLogger


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## lone wolf (Feb 9, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> Using the RTV to "plug" the hole in the compensator style air box backing plate was suggested earlier in this thread. At this point, I'm pretty much sold on the non-accelerator pump carburetor -- the Zama *C1Q-S16A* -- so I don't think we'll be going back ... and, if we do, it will only be to get us by while we locate another -S16A.
> 
> By the way, if you watch MCW's 200T vs 201T comparison video (Post 16), you'll see that his older -S16A equipped MS 200T kicks the dog doo out of Stihl's _"new and improved"_ top-handle professional saw. It's still early days for us, but, so far, the -S16A looks like a better carburetor option for the MS 200T.
> 
> ...



Well do not use it it could come loose and get sucked into the carb or just leave a entry for dirt to get in and wear your engine out.Dont use sealer on fuel lines or air boots etc!The only place you want to use sealer and the correct one would be on the Cyl base when you remove the gasket.But then again what do I know!Ask any Saw mechanic here!Really just looking out for you bud.


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## HandLogger (Feb 9, 2012)

*Thanks for watching out for us*

No worries, *Lone Wolf*. If I wanted to ask a Stihl tech, I would've loaded up the saw long ago and made the long haul to our nearest certified Stihl repair center. For us, having a resource like the AS.com forum is very useful. I spend the majority of my time out in the boonies, but, luckily, we've got a very good "souped up" laptop that can pick up a signal from a long way out. In fact, we can usually get on the internet when our phone service isn't working. The point is that we use the internet for research and don't often have the time for long road trips to the city.

Once again, thanks very much for all of your posts. 
HandLogger


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## pgg (Feb 9, 2012)

araldite is good gasproof sets rockhard the 24hour stuff not the 5-minute stuff, slipped in a thin plastic cover and sealed with araldite on this one


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## HandLogger (Feb 9, 2012)

*Nice Job*

That looks really familiar, *pgg*. 

Don't tell me ... you've switched to the old non-compensator, non-acclerator pump type Zamas before. 

Looks really good


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## pgg (Feb 9, 2012)

TonyRumore said:


> I screwed with my 200T carb for hours/days/weeks on end and finally had to throw in the towel and just buy a new one. Runs great now.
> That's the first time that a carb has ever beat me into submission. I'm sorry I let you all down. I had to tap out like a little girl.





all not beer and skittles because even the non-accel carbs go haywire on 200T's, have stripped them, the welch plugs too, and all circuits are clean as a whistle, knocked the nozzle out and replaced with known good one, tried a million combinations, all lever/float/spring/jets/settings etc.. all kosher, shafts seemingly firm and airtight, carb pressured under-water and no bubbles, engine sealed tighter than Obamas purse-strings, saw with new seals and bearings all-round with brand new rings to boot, all hoses and connections 100% yet still the little b!tch won't run properly, slam in a known good carb and she runs like a world-beater, so don't ask me either LOL


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## MCW (Feb 10, 2012)

pgg said:


> all not beer and skittles because even the non-accel carbs go haywire on 200T's, have stripped them, the welch plugs too, and all circuits are clean as a whistle, knocked the nozzle out and replaced with known good one, tried a million combinations, all lever/float/spring/jets/settings etc.. all kosher, shafts seemingly firm and airtight, carb pressured under-water and no bubbles, engine sealed tighter than Obamas purse-strings, saw with new seals and bearings all-round with brand new rings to boot, all hoses and connections 100% yet still the little b!tch won't run properly, slam in a known good carb and she runs like a world-beater, so don't ask me either LOL



Hey how many 200T's have you run mate? From memory you've given the 200T's a good run plus the 335/338XPT's, and the Echos. If I remember correctly you prefer the modded Echos?
For some reason I thought you'd given up on the 200T's yet you still seem to be pulling out photos (like the backing plate above) so I assume you still have some


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## pgg (Feb 10, 2012)

still rely heavily on the 200T's as no-nonsense work saws, the 020Ts and 200Ts are the best all-rounders, but as commercial pruning saws 335s ported and modded are my favorite for balance comfort and power to weight, the Echo tophandle saws are gutless junk saws, the "best" TH Echo is the 350/360T but compared to the husky or stihl they're just peaky screeching flexy cheapo rubbish and with a cheap horrible plasticy feel. Wouldn't be seen dead wielding an Echo mate, LOL


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## MCW (Feb 10, 2012)

pgg said:


> still rely heavily on the 200T's as no-nonsense work saws, the 020Ts and 200Ts are the best all-rounders, but as commercial pruning saws 335s ported and modded are my favorite for balance comfort and power to weight, the Echo tophandle saws are gutless junk saws, the "best" TH Echo is the 350/360T but compared to the husky or stihl they're just peaky screeching flexy cheapo rubbish and with a cheap horrible plasticy feel. Wouldn't be seen dead wielding an Echo mate, LOL



Whoops. I thought you ran a few modded Echos! My bad


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## lone wolf (Feb 10, 2012)

MCW said:


> Great news Handlogger. Keep us informed and glad to hear it all went together fine. That Permatex is useful stuff
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you burn one up let alone a dozen? Is the sawdust getting in? what is going on? I have never burned one up and been using them since the original 020 T came out.


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## HandLogger (Feb 10, 2012)

*Page 9, Post 124*



> Back again Bill with more photos and part numbers.
> I'd never taken much notice of my new 200T and hadn't realised it had a different H/L grommet.
> Anyway as with basically every Stihl part it has a part number stamped on the back of the grommet



*MCW*: In order to save on some forum bandwidth, I'm simply going to refer to the great photos you posted on Page *9*, Post *124*  earlier in this thread.

In order to facilitate proper adjustment of the new Zama C1Q-S16A, I just ordered the grommet shown in photos 2 and 3 -- Stihl Part # 1129 123 7502. In order to avoid any possible problems in the future, I also ordered the backing plate [aka, air filter base] for the non-compensating carburetor (-S16A) -- Stihl Part # 1129 120 3400.

As I was looking over photo 1 again, MCW, I noticed that the little metal summer/winter "slide" tab that goes into the handle housing -- after the grommet is in place -- is there on your new MS 200T (saw in foreground). Your older 200T, on the other hand, is shown in photo 1 (saw in background) with the -S16A grommet in place, but with no slide tab over it. I'm not exactly sure what the slide is used for, but _I was wondering if you, or your dealer perhaps, eliminated it for some reason?_


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## MCW (Feb 10, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> How do you burn one up let alone a dozen? Is the sawdust getting in? what is going on? I have never burned one up and been using them since the original 020 T came out.



Most would have been straight gassed by idiot casual operators. Most of the guys running these things in conrcat pruning organisations and those casual guys who are employed to prune have no right touching a saw. The guys that run these places wouldn't even know what a 200T is - to them it's just a chainsaw. It brings a tear to my eye...



HandLogger said:


> As I was looking over photo 1 again, MCW, I noticed that the little metal summer/winter "slide" tab that goes into the handle housing -- after the grommet is in place -- is there on your new MS 200T (saw in foreground). Your older 200T, on the other hand, is shown in photo 1 (saw in background) with the -S16A grommet in place, but with no slide tab over it. I'm not exactly sure what the slide is used for, but _I was wondering if you, or your dealer perhaps, eliminated it for some reason?_



I have no idea what that tab is for Bill but it may have something to do aligning the tabs on the dealer's Stihl tuning screwdriver. Not really sure. I have never seen that tab on the older 200T's and I've seen and worked on a fair few bog stock ones over the years. That may be due to the fact that all the ones I've worked on are Australian delivered versions?


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## HandLogger (Feb 10, 2012)

*Slide Tab*



> I have no idea what that tab is for Bill but it may have something to do aligning the tabs on the dealer's Stihl tuning screwdriver. Not really sure. I have never seen that tab on the older 200T's and I've seen and worked on a fair few bog stock ones over the years. That may be due to the fact that all the ones I've worked on are Australian delivered versions?



The fact that the slide tab has a sun symbol on one end and a snow flake symbol on the other leads me to believe that it's an air restricter of some sort, *MCW*. 

_Perhaps one of our learned MS 200T experts can enlighten us on this?_


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## Dan Forsh (Feb 10, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> The fact that the slide tab has a sun symbol on one end and a snow flake symbol on the other leads me to believe that it's an air restricter of some sort, *MCW*.
> 
> _Perhaps one of our learned MS 200T experts can enlighten us on this?_



Or alternatively it's not a secret and you can just look it up in the user manual. It just lets air flow over the carb area or not. When the snowflake shows you are directing air over the carb, when the sun shows you're not.


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## HandLogger (Feb 11, 2012)

*Test Run*

I let the Permatex RTV in the air box backing plate cure overnight. Earlier today, I took the MS 200T back to the woodlot and gave it a test run. In short, the saw ran about as strong as I ever recall. 

We still need to get our hands on a tachometer -- in order to tune the replacement carburetor accurately -- but it's still good knowing, by all indications, that the factory carb was the cause of our problems.

I'll get back to the AS.com forum after we get the new carb tuned properly.


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## MCW (Feb 11, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> The fact that the slide tab has a sun symbol on one end and a snow flake symbol on the other leads me to believe that it's an air restricter of some sort, *MCW*.
> 
> _Perhaps one of our learned MS 200T experts can enlighten us on this?_



I hadn't even looked close enough to notice the symbols  
The part you refer to is for summer or winter operation. In winter mode warm air is directed over the carburettor.


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## HandLogger (Feb 11, 2012)

*Winter Operation*

At this point, we've got parts schematic drawings and a service manual for the MS 200T, but damn if I could find the owner's manual anywhere. Consequently, I did a bit more research, found a .pdf version of the owner's manual and, there it is, on Page 25. The paragraph is entitled _Winter Operation_, which states:


*At temperatures below about +50°F*

- Take out the screw (1).
- Pull out the shutter (2), turn it over so that the window is facing down and then push it back into position [NOTE: so that you see the snowflake].
- Refit the screw (1).

_The shutter is now in the winter position. Heated air is now drawn in from around the cylinder to help prevent air filter and carburetor icing._​


Thanks, *MCW*, you were right on the money about the seasonal purpose of this relatively obscure part. :msp_thumbup:


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## mp5n (Feb 21, 2012)

*Carb problem fixed!*

I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread. 2 of my saws were exhibiting the same poor idle and big dead spot on acceleration. I’ve had to open up the L screw a few turn to try and get them to run, but didn’t have any luck. I disassembled the accelerator pump and the o-rind was definitely wasted. I bought replacement Viton O-rings through McMaster-Carr, McMaster-Carr. The number is #9263K511, $6.08 for 25pcs.

As soon as I swapped them out the saws ran perfectly. I was able to get the L screw back where it belonged and the snap in the throttle is back. If anyone is experiencing the same symptoms I would definitely recommend giving this a try before swapping out a carb.

These are definitely something any bearing supply can provide. The dimensions are 3mm ID x 1mm width. The standard Viton is recommended for petroleum and chemical resistance, although Buna-N will work also.

MP5N


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## HandLogger (Feb 21, 2012)

*Good on ya!*

Before I go on, I want to make it clear that having a useful thread for MS 200T owners was -- and still is -- the sole purpose of this thread. 

There's really no way for me to know how many reading this thread know this or not, so I'll just write it -- a lot of what I've learned about all of our Stihl saws came from one source: *Lakeside53* (aka, Andy or Lake). The dude was a wealth of information, and he is sorely missed by all of us who operate saws more than we work on them. This clearly being true, I read through every MS 200T thread I could get my eyes on -- _that Lakeside53 posted in_ -- before I wrote the initial post in this thread. And to make a very long story a bit shorter, the consensus was that the Zama accelerator pump design is one of *the* major causes of poor 200T performance issues. 

Specifically, the O-ring on the pump's piston/plunger wears out relatively quickly which _eventually_ leads to metal to metal wear occurring between said piston/plunger and the carburetor body itself. If caught early enough, YES, by all means, replacing the O-ring can save the day. If your work situation is anything like ours, however, you may not have the time to perform multiple repairs on a faulty carb design. This is the reason that a new non-accelerator pump Zama carburetor was purchased and installed on the MS 200T that inspired this thread. In short, it was worth it to us to spend the money on a better designed carb than it was to go through repairing the original carb, which, by the way, starting giving us headaches after relatively low operating hours.

We still have an adjustment grommet and an airbox backing plate on order, so I haven't had anything new to report lately. Once I have these parts installed, and we have some solid run time on the saw, I will be sure to add a progress report to this thread. 

Thanks to all who've made this a thorough thread :msp_thumbup:

P.S. There's a link to a video in this thread -- in Post 16 -- that shows MCW's "converted" accelerator pump-less MS 200T in action. I believe this video conclusively demonstrates how the older Zama carburetor design can be employed on an MS 200T. His saw kicks arse. Thanks for all of your posts, *MCW*.


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 21, 2012)

mp5n said:


> I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread. 2 of my saws were exhibiting the same poor idle and big dead spot on acceleration. I’ve had to open up the L screw a few turn to try and get them to run, but didn’t have any luck. I disassembled the accelerator pump and the o-rind was definitely wasted. I bought replacement Viton O-rings through McMaster-Carr, McMaster-Carr. The number is #9263K511, $6.08 for 25pcs.
> 
> As soon as I swapped them out the saws ran perfectly. I was able to get the L screw back where it belonged and the snap in the throttle is back. If anyone is experiencing the same symptoms I would definitely recommend giving this a try before swapping out a carb.
> 
> ...




I think the kit with the plunger was only $8.50 from Stihl.

Somebody earlier, I think it was Belgian, just replaced the O -ring.

Not much cost and a little trouble. Works for me.

If it goes bad any time soon please post, although I can't see any reason why you wouldn't get the same amount of use as a new one.


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## HandLogger (Feb 21, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think the kit with the plunger was only $8.50 from Stihl.
> 
> Somebody earlier, I think it was Belgium, just replaced the O -ring.
> 
> ...



I can't speak for other areas of the country, but the plunger plunger/piston kit that was recommended earlier in this thread *is no longer available* from Stihl dealers in our area.


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## ZeroJunk (Feb 22, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> I can't speak for other areas of the country, but the plunger plunger/piston kit that was recommended earlier in this thread *is no longer available* from Stihl dealers in our area.



I bought one in December. It wasn't in the regional warehouse and was backordered to wherever. Took about a week to get it. 

But, unless the piston is badly worn I suspect a new O ring would do the same thing since the piston really shouldn't have any pressure on it unless the O ring has worn even with it.


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## MCW (Feb 24, 2012)

HandLogger said:


> P.S. There's a link to a video in this thread -- in Post 16 -- that shows MCW's "converted" accelerator pump-less MS 200T in action. I believe this video conclusively demonstrates how the older Zama carburetor design can be employed on an MS 200T. His saw kicks arse. Thanks for all of your posts, *MCW*.



No problemo  I enjoyed the thread as much as anybody. It's not often I can contribute anything regarding saw mechanics as most other people beat me too it and know a lot more than me. Like my local Stihl dealer  If I ever have issues again though I'll be referring back to this thread.


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