# friction hitch



## NickfromWI (Feb 18, 2004)

Nice poll. Should a shwabish go with distel since they are so similar?


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## Dadatwins (Feb 18, 2004)

I still use old fashioned tautline and locking rope snap since I guess I learned it first and got comfortable with it. Tried beaner snap for a while did not like the feel of it and not heavy enough to throw up and advance(my opinion only). I have seen distal & schwabisch?? and played with on ground I even bought double eye spliced ultra tech loop and tri - biner but have not tried in a tree yet. Old habits hard to break.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> *I still use old fashioned tautline and locking rope snap since I guess I learned it first and got comfortable with it. Tried beaner snap for a while did not like the feel of it and not heavy enough to throw up and advance(my opinion only). *




EXCELLENT POST!!!


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## Guy Meilleur (Feb 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> * Old habits hard to break. *


Hard but not impossible. I'm looking to climb some giants this spring, and realize that oldschool will be too tedious for them.

That, and the prospect of being guided by a master next month in MN, have me ready to go "progressive".


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## rbtree (Feb 18, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> *Tried beaner snap for a while did not like the feel of it and not heavy enough to throw up and advance(my opinion only). I have seen distal & schwabisch?? and played with on ground I even bought double eye spliced ultra tech loop and tri - biner but have not tried in a tree yet. Old habits hard to break. *



Try a double locking steel carabiner....or carry a shot pouch with you for when you need extra weight. I'm usually ok without the weight, as I tie a quick monkey's fist throwing knot. 

Even before you quit using the TLH, add a pulley behind it to tend the knot. You'll quickly see the advantages. Then go to the hitches you mentioned, or even the French prussic, and you'll be hooked.


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## rbtree (Feb 18, 2004)

Good on ya, Guy!!!

Welcome to progressionville


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## kurtztree (Feb 18, 2004)

I like the blakes hitch more than the taughtline now. The only down fall with the blakes is it takes me alittle longer to tie then the taughtline. I like the vt for my lanyard. Just starting to go away from old school I guess.


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## ORclimber (Feb 18, 2004)

VT. With a rope snap instead of a splice.

When I worked at General Tree Service in Portland 5 years ago, many of their climbers were using the VT. There are quality oriented progressive companies outside of AS .


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## NeTree (Feb 18, 2004)

Here we go again


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## Stumper (Feb 19, 2004)

Brian, I wish you had alllowed for multiple choices. I voted Distel but I am actually using the V.T. and Distel about equally.


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## Jumper (Feb 19, 2004)

Blake's, primarily since it was the one that was taught to me.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 19, 2004)

Instead of a monkeys fist or throw bag for throwing weights, i think a steel rescue pulley and carabiner work nicely. Just a steel carabiner for short throws. One place that the weight of steel is to your advantage i think.


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## Base (Feb 19, 2004)

i was unsure which box to tick......... a i use a blakes hitch, then sometimes i use my lock jack sport it all depends on the tree if its a crown reduction, or i will be swinging around for a while i use my lock jack, if its a conifer type pole affair i use a blakes with a split tale, or just go for my steel strope with a mirco grab, the lock jack is a nice bit of kit but i feel it has some flaws when in confined situations.....................


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## Lumberjack (Feb 19, 2004)

I use the Petzel i'D for SRT, but when it is deemed easyier to DbRT, I use the knut, so a VT, but normally I just stick with my SRT and RADS.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 19, 2004)

Good poll Rocky.
I wonder if anybody has learned to tie a VT, got it tuned up to work for them, used it for a week or two, then gone back to the Blakes or Tautline.
I wonder the same thing about a split tail/prussic cord. Has anyone learned to use one, then gone back to working tying the hitch with the tail of his climbing rope?
I wonder the same about a fair lead. 
The old school climbers are just climbers that have not taken the time to learn and try new school, for whatever reason.


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## TREETX (Feb 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *The old school climbers are just climbers that have not taken the time to learn and try new school, for whatever reason. *



Welcome to the truth.....

Amen to that.


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## Ax-man (Feb 19, 2004)

As of my post there have been 37 votes cast. About the same number of people that post and reply here on a regular basis. 

Based on the results so far, it is right on based on who has stated what hitch they are using when the subject is discussed in the forums.

Surely there are more than 37 climbers on this site that could add some more numbers to the poll. This is about where these polls peter out is in the high 30's. I'd like to think that there are more than 37 climbers on the site. It just seems to be such a low number compared to how many people are on this site.

I voted VT, for all the right reasons, of course. 

Hint, Hint Butch, Guy is starting to come around, just a matter of time before we get you too. Maybe not today, but some day  

Larry


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## jamie (Feb 19, 2004)

*prusic*

well i voted for a blakes when in reality i use a prussic, having said that on my cars roof rack i have a thin rope, cheap stuff from teh diy shop tied with blakes hitches to hold stuff down

wnt to get into more advanced hiches, still practising tieing them and every other knot, make sure i can do them with my eyes closed first.....


jamie


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## TreeJunkie (Feb 19, 2004)

*Prusik?*

Prusik? This isn't your primary hitch is it? I can see you using this for ascending but not to work off ddrt...Am i misunderstanding you?
Myself i primarily use a vt, except in certain situations like in aerial rescue where i may be bearing the load of another climber or in comp. in the work climb when you have to come burning out to land the target. For both of these applications i'll use a schwaibish or distel. I've had the vt lock up on me 1/2 way down through a fast long descent, the other two hitches don't do this so much.


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## Guy Meilleur (Feb 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *Hint, Hint Butch, Guy is starting to come around, just a matter of time before we get you too. *


Well let's not claim victory over oldschool too early there Lare. 
My motivation for newschool is to get up really big bare-boled trees efficiently so I can measure them. :angel: 

The runofthemill <90' oakmaplepine etc. with branches in reach of my 32' ladder and a hand toss that I'm used to working on will still be climbed monkeyfist and tlh. The "whatever reason" is time efficiency, not a bad reason at all, eh?

Still I confess to some excitement about trying the new before I'm too old and decrepit to climb anymore.


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## Stumper (Feb 19, 2004)

Guy, I'm hardly an "efficient" climber under the best of circumstances but I promise that switching to a tree cord and distel or V.T has saved time rather than costing it after the first 3-4 climbs. I know what you mean about extreme line setting etc. being time costly but 2 biners and an advanced hitch saves time recrotching, ties almost as fast(for a beginner it would probably be equal but the old knot was so engrained that it was super quick), and makes slack tending or descent a breeze.:angel:


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2004)

Good question. The only time I have ever used a taughtline was for the 3 months that I worked for Asplundh, and the punk kid foreman wouldnt let us use anything else, because the Blakes hitch wasnt in the foremans manual. (go figure) Any who, I like the Blakes because it will not work its way out, and I can attach a micro pulley to mind my knot when I work my way back in off of a lateral leader, or when I need to pull in slack with one hand. I was looking at the Sherrill Cataloge on the way back home today and was wondering if I can use a minder pulley with a Schwabisch, or a Distel hitch? I havent tried it, but it looks like it would work. Also, I have developed a habit of footlocking on my Blakes hitch on asscents if I am hanging out away from the trunk of a tree. Is this considered SRT? My buddy has dubbed it as "Kenn's Funky Footlock"


"There are few problems in life that cant be solved with a suitable application of high explosives"

Kenn


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## NickfromWI (Feb 19, 2004)

Ken, yep, you can put a slack tender with a distel. Some people will slide on one leg of the distel, slide on the pulley, then slide on the other leg of the distel. I've also seen people have the two legs together, but I don't like that as much.

And no, you still got a way to go before that funky footlock is srt. But it is a good way to get up a rope when there are no branches to step on.

love
nick


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey Nick, thanks, I have a Pantin on the way from Sherrill and I may just have to pick up a eye & eye Prusik cord from the Vermeer dealer tomorrow. (Its gonna snow like crazy here in Denver tonight.) I usually use a split tail and Im thinking I can attach the spliced eye of my climb line to my saddle then wrap either the Schwabisch or Distil hitch to the running end of my climb line with a minder pully and use that Pantin to boogie up a hell whole of a lot quicker that the funky foot lock. All these snow days are makin me think and use that grey matter that God put between my ears.

"there are few problems in life that cant be solved with a suitable application of high explosives"

Kenn


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2004)

Right on Rocky. My Grandma once told me, "the more you know the less likely you are to starve" I stumbled accross this site a few months ago but finally got around to sighning in and asking questions, instead of just reading the posts. (much to the dismay of my girlfriend.) Oh well, she isnt complayning when I deposit those checks into our bank account. LOL But she did say that I can buy a pair of Wesco climbing boots, and about half of my Sherrill wish list tomorrow. If life is good now, I cant wait untill spring.



> "there are few problems in life that cant be solved with a suitable application of high explosives"



Kenn:Monkey:


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## Eagle1 (Feb 19, 2004)

Blake. but wanting to change. Just dragging my feet.


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## Stumper (Feb 19, 2004)

Kenn, Most of the guys on here aren't to hip on Wescos-not because they aren't great quality boots but because they are heavy and less efficient for climbing than other boots unless a person is on gaffs-which is rare for most of us. Footwear is a personal choice but I'd spend most of that $300 bucks on other gear and climb on cheaper hiking boots.:angel:


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2004)

*Oh no!*

Kenn, DON"T buy the WESCOS!

Trust me!


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## rahtreelimbs (Feb 19, 2004)

I started on a Blakes. Then went to the Swaybish/Distel. Now I am on the VT and will not go back! I use the VT on my climbing line and on my lanyard.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Oh no!*



> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Kenn, DON"T buy the WESCOS!
> 
> Trust me!  *




I take that back... If your wading through knee-deep shards of glass... or stomping over Pit Mouth Vipers... or on your Wide Glide making a beer run...

Lace up yur WESCOS!!!


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## Dadatwins (Feb 19, 2004)

Red Wings for me and I will never go back. opps wrong poll


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 19, 2004)

WESCOS eat Red Wings for a light snack!


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 19, 2004)

OK, we went from climbing hitches to climbing boots. Its all good, I may just save the money and get a pair of the Red Dawgs Climbers from Baileys. To be honest with you, I have a titanium rod in my left lower leg from an old bull riding accident, and if im sitting in a pair of spikes for a few hours it is pure torture. Besides, between me, you and the fence post, I think those boots look pretty sharp.
But its all a matter of opinion.




> "There are few problems in life that cant be solved with a suitable application of high explosives"



Kenn


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## OutOnaLimb (Feb 20, 2004)

Hey Y'all. I have been climbing in a pair of flimsy engineer boots for the last two years. Dont get me wrong they have been a great pair of work boots, but for me they are just a little to soft and dont have the leg support. I hate getting my foot stuck in a tight crotch, or having to stand there for a few minutes while my toes fall asleep. Plus I have titanium pins in my lower leg and am thinking that the 16" Tops, and the steel shank will help out with the discomfort of standing in a pair of spikes for hours on end when Im doing a big removal. Has any one ever really climbed in the Red Dawgs Climbers? Or the Wesco's for that matter? How about the Danner Highliners? Should I start up a new topic on climbing boots or what? Throw me a fricken bone here!!!!


Kenn


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## rbtree (Feb 20, 2004)

Kenn,

Save your $ for good climbing gear, and get a $80-150 pr of hiking boots, gore-tex if desired, with a small heel. Maybe bring your gaffs to the store and a chunk of wood so that you can try out the feel. I now only break out the Wesco's if I'll be standing in gaffs for a long time. My current Merrell's, and previous Asolo, Technica, etc, boots have all been adequate for spur use. And much preferred for gaffless climbing.

Chances are the Red Dawgs are OK. I have climbed in White's, Northwests (out of bus.) and Wesco's. They all work, but the current Merrels feel just fine on the foot and arch.

I've climbed for 30 yrs, 20 on a tautline hitch, 2 on a blakes, and 8 on a Vt. I seldom use the schwabisch/distel as they are simply not as good as a Vt. I've used a split tail and pulley slack tender for 10 years. 

Using a Petzl Pantin to ascend DbRT "Doubled Rope Technique" is half as fast with half the effort of SRT or straight footlocking. If footlocking, it is called footlocking the tail. Only problem with this method is the friction at the crotch, if a cambium/friction saver has not been set. 
Thus the reasons for using SRT or footlocking for long ascents are to make it easier on yourself and the tree.

Another favorite access method is to use two lines. First set a throw line in a strong crotch. Key here is very strong!
Set a line, tie pulley to an end, run lifeline thriough pulley. Pull line 1 up to crotch, keeping both ends of lifeline in reach. Tie off line 1 at the base of the tree. Now you have a frictionless ascent. I have been pulled, using my own effort also, up 60 feet in a very short time. Ok you regulars, chime in here, are my load calc's right, or are the figures double?

Recently I have done some very tall trees, where I used my 200 foot static line, tied at the base, and climb on ascenders. With no ground help to untie the line, I have worked the tree with the static line tail or a second lifeline, then descended on a figure 8. 

Here's Eli nearing the end of a 70 foot footlock. He's using an Ushba (An odd Russian camming device) with Vt backup for his footlock belay.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 20, 2004)

Using a pulley in the manor you described would make a 2:1 MA against the crotch, just like SRT.


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## rbtree (Feb 20, 2004)

Carl, you mean 2:1 load at the crotch, not MA. Actually, I think the pulley method applies four times the climber's weight at the crotch, and some more when groundies pull him up.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 20, 2004)

The load is caused by a MA (natural advantage perhaps?). If the groundies are pulling the climber up, then it would be 4:1, if the climber pulls himself up, then it is only 2:1 on the crotch. If they are helping, then it would fall somewhere inbetween.

The climber only puts his weight on the pulley, if he is pulling himself up. 2 legs split the weight, but the total weight on the pulley with just him pullin is his weight. 

If the groundies are pulling him up then it is 2x weight on the pulley, and 4xs on the crotch.

This I know. 

I also know this puts me in 4 digits!!


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## Lumberjack (Feb 20, 2004)

1: Tie off for pulley
2: Climbers tail
3: Climber
4: Pulley
5: Crotch

If the climber is pulling on his tail, then the load on the pulley is 1:1 and the crotch is 2:1.

If the groundies pull him up by his tail, then the pulley goes 2:1 and the crotch goes to 4:1.

If it is a combined effort, then it will be between 1:1-2:1 on the pulley, and 2:1-4:1 on the crotch, depending on who is doing the most, the climber or the groundies.


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## Stumper (Feb 20, 2004)

Give Carl a gold star.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 20, 2004)

Heck yeah!!! I am a BA at MA.


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## knudeNoggin (Feb 21, 2004)

> I'm a BA at MA

Better than being an MA at BS, huh?

The MA in many practical cases such as this needs to be significantly reduced by friction. Would a 150# person ascending hoist a 50/75/100# counterweight (used instead of tying off the pulley end)? --that would show the true load at the crotch.

(I know from some fiddling with mythical things like the "Poldo Tackle" and barbell weights that the actual MA is hardly what some knot book authors assert.)

(^_^)


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## Stumper (Feb 21, 2004)

Knude, The calculations are based on 0 friction at the turns.-Which doesn't happen. However, good pulleys make friction losses small. A pulleyless Poldo is a long way from a 3/1 MA but still a useful trick.


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## Ax-man (Feb 21, 2004)

54 votes cast, not to shabby, I still think there are some more climbers out there that could push the poll into the 60's, maybe into the 70's.

Looks like an almost dead even split between the Blake's, TL guys, compared to the VT, Distel/ Swabbish users.


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## Greg (Feb 21, 2004)

Rocky you talk about yuppie climbers like you aren't one!! You sold me on the pantin, and I think the lockjack is the ultimate sign of a yuppie climber. haha!!

I use a distal with a micro pulley in the middle, or used to until I started climbing on Yellow Jacket. I love the rope but my distal just goes too limp to work good, I normally use a 3 over 1 wrap, but have even tried 3 over 2 and it still does not grab like I'd like it to. Good news is that I have pulled out an ascender that I rarely use that works a lot like a LJ it is a Titanium USHUBA(?) ascender that works great on this thinner rope. It never worked as well with the arbor plex, blue streak, pro stripe. 
I of course always have my trusty pantin to help me out, and a handled ascender to pull on if I have a little longer climb ahead of me. 

Boots: Magnum steel toes with the side zipper. These were $100 boots -most expensive boots I've ever owned (I live in FL). I only tie them once a week to get them nice and snug and then use the side zipper to get quickly in and out of. They feel great and are very light weight. they look pretty rough with only 2-3 months of hard use, but they feel great. They've got another couple of months and I'm going to step up to somthing with a steel shank, and spend a few more bucks. I now don't mind putting money on my feet it is worth it.

Greg


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## Dadatwins (Feb 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *54 votes cast, not to shabby, I still think there are some more climbers out there that could push the poll into the 60's, maybe into the 70's.
> *


On a site that claims to have over 4000 members I am new to site but not new to this type of work and do not mean to sound like a wise a** but out of 4000 members only about 70 guys climb? You guys must be really busy


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## Dadatwins (Feb 21, 2004)

Never scrolled down that far. I stopped at dealers only. I wonder why they do not elimate after certain period of no activity? I guess I will get the hang of this as I go along.


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## Curtis James (Feb 22, 2004)

I am happy on the swabbish. I have only seen the pics and links of the VT variations. That is new to me. That is why I'm not going anywhere, this place is a vast library of first hand experience! I thirst for more knowledge. The boots thing, I bought another pair of husky's, climbers boots. If I were gaffs(unusual) I take an extra wrap on the shank of the gaff to keep them in place. They are amazing to footlock in and very durable. They have no heal at all. FLAT! I accidentally ruined my last pair by spreading calcium chloride in the winter and not clening it off my boots right away. It shrunk them three sizes or better! sucked the life out of the leather. They were a little steep but I just love them. I wore 45$ timberlands from sears till I had enough cash. I still have them also. I think the key is taking care of them. IE mink oil or something.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 25, 2004)

There are more tauntline people out there than you might think.

And this 'ole tauntline boy will go up against anybody, anywhere, anytime.

Err, as long as THEY come HERE!


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## ptar (Feb 25, 2004)

friction hitch:

I like both the distel and the Vt but I can make
the distel more compact so I use the distel most 
of the time. 

Maybe I suck and can't tie a good Vt. 

I also use 9mm (3/8") Sta-Set, and I've never
tried the 8mm.

boots:

I like the Husqvarna climbers boots. Low heel,
non-metallic toe cap, chainsaw resistant and
comfy. Then again what do I know.


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## TreeJunkie (Feb 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *Thanks everyone, for confirming what I suspected. Fully half of the members here are using the most advanced climbing hitches available, not even counting the few who are using mechanical items such as the LockJack. This tells me that we are among the cream of the crop out there. In my travels I have not met too many people who use anything other than a Blake's hitch. I'm not criticizing, but it shows that the majority of the industry out there is not in tune with the latest methods and tools. *



True to that! This is the same way i feel, around Kansas City i would bet of the climbers i know and know of there might be 5 or 6 climbing on anything other than a blakes or tl, come on people this isn't the stone age, I'm trying to convert the guys i work w/ soon enough, as soon as their split tails wear out they wont' have a choice, eye and eye prusiks for the lot.. It does feel good being among the most knowledgeable in the area let alone the industry,,,,It says alot about our active members here......This site along w/ tree _____.something are some of the best things iv'e done to increase my knowledge.. We have among the best and most advanced climbers in the world here. Where could be a better place to learn...


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## Eagle1 (Feb 26, 2004)

humm yea. Could you explain that post in english now?


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## Lumberjack (Feb 26, 2004)

I will give it a shot...

in Kansas City there are 5-6 climber that dont use a blakes or a tl. He is gonna try to convert the climbers he works with, when their split tails wear out, and they wont have a choice. They will be getting eye-eye prusick cords for everyone. It feels good to be among the best (active members only) he also gives credit to tree buz. The most advanced climbers are here, and there is no better place to learn from.


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## Bradley (Feb 27, 2004)

VT or Distel. Occasionaly a Blakes.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 27, 2004)

Carl, that was awesome! Do you also speak Sanbornese?

love
nick


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## Lumberjack (Feb 27, 2004)

Even better, Rutherfordium. It is rather universal. I gotta be able to uderstand what I say when I get thinkin faster than I can talk.


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## hooks (Feb 28, 2004)

tautline ; served me well for many years. still working


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hooks _
> *tautline ; served me well for many years. still working *



But vt much better.

Yeah, Brandon is a bright young fellah, I worked with him on one of his Uncles crews for a week or so. Maybe I infected him  .

I bet he was well caffinated when he was tyoing that. looks more _Kenny_ then _JP_


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## Lumberjack (Feb 28, 2004)

I agree that the VT is much better. I have just started using DdRT, but the VT is great. I am rather heavy at 230 pounds, but I didnt have to "fine tune" the VT. I made 3 or 4 wraps and 3-4 crosses... I cant remember which, it used up all the slack from the UT tress cord. It worked like a dream... I use to hate friction hitches for climbing (SRT) because the would get to tight, but then I got the i'D, and that made it easy.

I would say give the VT a try, if you dont like it then you can go back to the TH.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 28, 2004)

I used the DdRT for the rest of today. I like it. I perfer the Ditsal over the VT for ascending, and the VT for working. A little fine tuning is in order to get the VT set for everything. When ascending today, I used a pantin, and FL up. I would hold the hitch side with my hands (My hands are soft tonight), and let the hitch float up. When I was setting down I would pull the VT out, so it would grip properly.

Quick question... on the VT, do the wraps and crosses serve a specific purpose, and if so what is it. My thoughts are that the wraps stretch out the crosses, and set the hitch when weight is applied. The crosses allow for the varying amount of friciton by colapsing them.

Any thoughts?


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## rahtreelimbs (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Quick question... on the VT, do the wraps and crosses serve a specific purpose, and if so what is it. My thoughts are that the wraps stretch out the crosses, and set the hitch when weight is applied. The crosses allow for the varying amount of friciton by colapsing them.
> 
> Any thoughts? *




As I see it, the upper wraps hold the crosses until the "bite" on the crosses takes effect. I like the "tunability of the VT. 

Carl, I weigh 225 Lbs. I use a 52" piece of 5/16" Sta-Set, tied with double-fishermans knots. This may seem long, but anything shorter wouldn't feed smooth. I use the 4 wrap-3 braid configuration and it works good. Since our weight is practially the same I thought this might help!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 28, 2004)

i think that collapsed/relaxed braids allow free flow that the Short Frenchy Stack would not if it were loaded as the braids. i think the VT braids when loaded bend the line as a rack back and forth, but without the surer, dead choke friction of the Short Frenchy Stack. But the bends from the braids reduce the load enough that the Frenchy still positively stops, but doesn't have to load/ choke down so intensley to do so. So this hybrid joining of the 2 different strategies in one device gives the best of both worlds, slide and grip when i've tried to figure it out.


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## Lumberjack (Feb 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *As I see it, the upper wraps hold the crosses until the "bite" on the crosses takes effect. I like the "tunability of the VT.
> 
> Carl, I weigh 225 Lbs. I use a 52" piece of 5/16" Sta-Set, tied with double-fishermans knots. This may seem long, but anything shorter wouldn't feed smooth. I use the 4 wrap-3 braid configuration and it works good. Since our weight is practially the same I thought this might help! *




Thanks... gotta get me some sta set if I keep with DdRT.

Thanks also spydy.


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