# Business Partner suspicious? Or am I paranoid?



## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

Recently i formed a business with my friend. He is the climber, i am the ground guy. I own all the trucks. My partner doesnt own a car.

Everything's been smooth up untill i cut my leg pretty deep with a saw and was out for two weeks. I was unable to drive or work. My partner took over the estimating as i let him borrow my truck. He also did a few small bush trims he could do himself. We previously contracted that during an injury we still each get our normal pay unless the injured person is out for more than 5 weeks. 

During my time at home this happens..

On one 200 dollar job he accidentally lost 100 dollars on the way home. 

We had a huge increase in quotes over the time i was injured, which explained for the many miles that was driven on my truck. But we only sold three jobs in the 2 weeks. He also forgot to write in the book all of these incoming calls and estimates he did because he was too busy. 

What do u guys think and what would you do?


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 18, 2016)

Well, first start wearing your ppe, that would have solved a lot of problems.
Lost a Hundo? Well, he lost his half of the job. Bet he doesn't do that again, if he did. Not accepting cash in a partnership also helps solve that problem. As far as the rest, it just doesn't sound like much of a business. Unfortunately, you need him more than he needs you, sounds like.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Sep 18, 2016)

Does the cut prevent you from using a phone or riding shotgun?


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Well, first start wearing your ppe, that would have solved a lot of problems.
> Lost a Hundo? Well, he lost his half of the job. Bet he doesn't do that again, if he did. Not accepting cash in a partnership also helps solve that problem. As far as the rest, it just doesn't sound like much of a business. Unfortunately, you need him more than he needs you, sounds like.



Thanks for the response, i tried to make it short and sweet. We are an established business in S.E michigan. I own all the trucks, chippers, trailers, loaders, saws, ropes....i own it all... i bought it all from my half of the money we both made so i wouldnt have to buy him out in the case of a major fallout. I think i will delegate myself to the organization of paperwork and phones. 

Im not sure if theres a full truth to that, yes he is the climber, but he also makes 50% of each job, he couldn't get that pay anywhere else. We do also split business expenses. But after expenses the profit it split 50 50


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Does the cut prevent you from using a phone or riding shotgun?



He delegated himself to the phone, yes it sort of did his court order allows him to drive only if no passengers are in the vehicle....


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

And yes i normally wear ppe...helmet...gloves...i was being lazy about walking the 20 ft to the truck to grab chaps....


Also i think i should mention that i am posting this for honest feedback negative or positive. So dont hold your comments back, were all tree guys we can handle a little heat


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## ATH (Sep 18, 2016)

"the only ship that won't float is a partnership"

If you can't trust him you are in for choppy waters ahead.

Specific to the things you brought up:

_On one 200 dollar job he accidentally lost 100 dollars on the way home._
Sucks to be him. Sounds like his $100 he lost to me. At best you could argue that you each lost $50 since everything is split 50/50.

_We had a huge increase in quotes over the time i was injured, which explained for the many miles that was driven on my truck. But we only sold three jobs in the 2 weeks._
Where did the calls come from? How many calls is a "huge increase"? If it included more than about 6-7 and he only sold 3, then, yes...he certainly needs you (assuming you are selling more than 50%).

_He also forgot to write in the book all of these incoming calls and estimates he did because he was too busy._
You guys need to come up with a better system that you both buy into.


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## Pelorus (Sep 18, 2016)

Business partnerships don't work in tree work. One guy winds up doing more than his fair share of the work, irritation increases, fallout results.

edit: And fallout is gonna be an inevitable outcome here. You are trying to do bodywork on a truck with no brakes.


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

ATH said:


> "the only ship that won't float is a partnership"
> 
> If you can't trust him you are in for choppy waters ahead.
> 
> ...




Thanks ATH for the reply.. ive been known to be too much of a nice guy, so i let the 100 slide...

We typically get 5-6 calls a week, we typically sell 4-5 jobs a week. This big increase in estimates was his response when i called him out for the excessive miles driven on the truck. 

Yes a new system is a must... maybe one phone number to the business instead of both of ours is a start


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

I made this post mostly to vent anonymously to the tree community, but i am happy with your responses i think you guys have brouht up some great advice so far.


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## ATH (Sep 18, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> ....
> 
> Yes a new system is a must... maybe one phone number to the business instead of both of ours is a start


No question...and that is not a trust thing, just a clarity thing that I think makes the most sense for any business. When I see 2 #'s, I never know: which one do I pick, do I try one...if no one answers do I leave a voice mail or just hang up and try the other. If I leave a VM on the first number do I still call the second number???

Maybe get a 3rd number that you normally forward to your phone...but when you are not available you have it forwarded to him?

You have actual partnership documents filed with the State? I think you'd be better off with one of you owning the business and the other being an employee. You can still split all profits 50/50 if you structure it well.


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 18, 2016)

ATH said:


> No question...and that is not a trust thing, just a clarity thing that I think makes the most sense for any business. When I see 2 #'s, I never know: which one do I pick, do I try one...if no one answers do I leave a voice mail or just hang up and try the other. If I leave a VM on the first number do I still call the second number???
> 
> Maybe get a 3rd number that you normally forward to your phone...but when you are not available you have it forwarded to him?
> 
> You have actual partnership documents filed with the State? I think you'd be better off with one of you owning the business and the other being an employee. You can still split all profits 50/50 if you structure it well.




Yes we filed an L.L.C. in michigan and wrote that we are both 50 50 owners. That's a good idea. Even a trac phone since you typically don't have crazy long conversations with customers.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 19, 2016)

Each quote needs to have a written form to go with it. That would prevent the problem of not trusting whether your partner actually went to the sales call. 

The quote can turn into a work contract. It should be signed by you when you give it to the customer and no work should start until the customer signs it (or gives some other form of written go ahead - email).


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## Paragon Builder (Sep 19, 2016)

I say trust your gut. I didn't because I wanted to believe that he was honest. And I think he was at first. But life happens and people justify things. It starts small. Sounds like he is lying to you, and you are giving him benefit of the doubt. 
I will never partner again. I knew 5 years ago I needed out but didn't know how to make the break. I tried to keep it it amicable, and finally broke away a year ago. He screwed me out of my take of our last job, a 6 week renovation, on top of what he had been skimming for years. But I'm better off. Still climbing out of the hole though. 
If he is your friend and you want it to stay that way, I would restructure things somehow.


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 19, 2016)

BC WetCoast said:


> Each quote needs to have a written form to go with it. That would prevent the problem of not trusting whether your partner actually went to the sales call.
> 
> The quote can turn into a work contract. It should be signed by you when you give it to the customer and no work should start until the customer signs it (or gives some other form of written go ahead - email).



Yes we have a quote book where we have written forms thay become signed contracts for each job. We also have a phone book where we write down all incoming calls to the business. He didnt fill out these books


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 19, 2016)

Paragon Builder said:


> I say trust your gut. I didn't because I wanted to believe that he was honest. And I think he was at first. But life happens and people justify things. It starts small. Sounds like he is lying to you, and you are giving him benefit of the doubt.
> I will never partner again. I knew 5 years ago I needed out but didn't know how to make the break. I tried to keep it it amicable, and finally broke away a year ago. He screwed me out of my take of our last job, a 6 week renovation, on top of what he had been skimming for years. But I'm better off. Still climbing out of the hole though.
> If he is your friend and you want it to stay that way, I would restructure things somehow.
> 
> ...




Yes, i have done alot of research and heard opinions through here and other forums, sounds like a partnership with a friend almost never works. Now the question could moved on as to how do i restructure, and what works for most tree guys.


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## Paragon Builder (Sep 19, 2016)

I'm not a tree guy. But there can only be one chief. You can pay a guy well. But even if a partnership works in the beginning, life happens and people change. Someone gets taken advantage of. You own all the equipment. He can't do jobs without you. You need a climber. You could hire another one probably for less than you pay him. This means you've got decent cards. But he will get pissed no doubt if you try to pull the reins in cuz you are his meal ticket. Believe me. 
No matter what, it sucks. But don't wait 5-10 years to get trampled on like I did.


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## woodenboater (Sep 19, 2016)

Not in the tree biz but I would suggest you dissolve or otherwise find a way out of the partnership. I don't see anything but headaches down the road and if trust is an issue, well that pretty well seals it. Would he be ok being an employee that draws a weekly cheque ? It would mean more work for you but could also alleviate some of the issues nagging you. 

Some people make better employees than business partners. good luck down the road


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## SirSawsAlot (Sep 19, 2016)

Yes i totally agree. All of these horror stories of a partnership make me wish that i looked into it more before making a decision on my excitement. Now the work begins and my temper and ability to negotiate will be tested.


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## Paragon Builder (Sep 19, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> Yes i totally agree. All of these horror stories of a partnership make me wish that i looked into it more before making a decision on my excitement. Now the work begins and my temper and ability to negotiate will be tested.



I wish you the best.


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## JeffGu (Sep 19, 2016)

Dissolving partnerships is easy. The hard part is hiding the bodies.


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## woodenboater (Sep 19, 2016)

also, and I don't mean to plant this is your head but I'm guessing you're already wondering...

Are you suspecting partner is doing jobs, the ones didn't materialize from all the quotes, on the qt, and not marking it in the ledger ?


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## rarefish383 (Sep 19, 2016)

You say you filed an LLC. In Michigan, do you have to be licensed and insured, certified. Since this is the commercial forum and not begginers 101, who has the license, who has the certifications? That's the person that has the other by the dodads. In MD you have to have a MD Tree Experts License. You can make all the legal partnerships you want, means beans, if you are not licensed. You say you own all of the trucks, chippers, and equipment, but sounds like you are a two man crew. Who's running the extra trucks and chippers? The person with the smarts rules here. How did he loose half of $200? Seems if I have a wad of $20's and loose some, I loose it all. If I have two $100 dollar bills folded in my pocket and drop one, it drags the other with it. I think the smart one should give the other the boot and start over, hope you don't get the boot, Joe.


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## rocketnorton (Sep 19, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> He delegated himself to the phone, yes it sort of did his court order allows him to drive only if no passengers are in the vehicle....



have you seen the "court orders"? they are your trucks.
agreed that he "lost" his 1/2.


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## Marshy (Sep 19, 2016)

Depending on how much longer you are going to be laid up but, you might want to reach out to a private investigator and see how much it would cost to build some evidence that could be used in the court to show negligence. This would confirm if he really is lying to you and if he is it gives you the upper hand. You could possibly force him out of the partnership without actually going to court if your lucky. Any attempts dissolve the partnership with likely end poorly for your relationship. The best you can do is cover your own ass financially. If he agreed to dissolve his half of the partnership but keep the same compensation I believe his quality of work will start to diminish but that will be a test of character.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Sep 19, 2016)

This guy is doing all the work right now and it is no excuse to cheat you but it may appear that way to him. You need to stop worrying about getting cheated right now and worry about getting fed. If you start dealing with this right now you will lose your workers comp payments. It sucks to get cheated but you need to suck it up and start doing the bidding and p.r. until you get better. You will probably get a larger percentage of your bids because you can show the danger and added expenses that come with the job to justify higher prices than what people expect. Forget about all this until you are capable of feeding yourself and concentrate on helping out where you can watch your money and take up some of the slack.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 19, 2016)

If you want to get out of the partnership, I assume you have a partnership agreement, it will have a clause in there on how to dissolve the partnership.


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## woodenboater (Sep 19, 2016)

> ...You will probably get a larger percentage of your bids because you can show the danger and added expenses that come with the job to justify higher prices than what people expect...



could also work against getting jobs if client understands that you got hurt because you weren't wearing ppe = irresponsible in their eyes. I wouldn't show battle scars to sell a tree service. I'm a landowner saw guy so ymmv


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## IyaMan (Sep 19, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> his court order allows him to drive only if no passengers are in the vehicle....



"Court order"? He's a criminal of some sort... and you wonder if he'd be inclined to cheat you?

If he can only drive alone, and you can't drive right now, it sounds like you both have handicaps.


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## rarefish383 (Sep 20, 2016)

The "court order" had me thinking also. We've had crew leaders get DWI's and lost their drivers license. They drove chipper trucks with two other guys in them. We had to write a letter to the Judge requesting a restricted license. The restricted license was granted and they were only allowed to drive to, at, and from work. The restricted license DID NOT make us go out and buy a new truck for the other two crew members to ride in. This thread is something else. First stated "just started a new business with friend", then stated " this is an established business with multiple trucks and chippers", with only one two man crew. One of the two crew members can't drive to the job site with the other one in the truck. Never got a response to which one has the license, insurance and certifications. This was posted in the "commercial forum", where guys that own or work for real Tree Company's hang out. Not "arborist 101" where rookies go to find a way into the business. All I can imagine is Mack and Myer showing up at my curb, Mack jumps out of the truck and lights up a smoke, and waits for Myer to come jogging up behind. Established business? How can a "NEW BUSINESS" be "ESTABLISHED"? Go figure. I need three more cups of coffee, I'm grumpy when I wake up, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Sep 20, 2016)

The "court order" had me thinking also. We've had crew leaders get DWI's and lost their drivers license. They drove chipper trucks with two other guys in them. We had to write a letter to the Judge requesting a restricted license. The restricted license was granted and they were only allowed to drive to, at, and from work. The restricted license DID NOT make us go out and buy a new truck for the other two crew members to ride in. This tread is something else. First stated "just started a new business with friend", then stated " this is an established business with multiple trucks and chippers", with only one two man crew. One of the two crew members can't drive to the job site with the other one in the truck. Never got a response to which one has the license, insurance and certifications. This was posted in the "commercial forum", where guys that own or work for real Tree Company's hang out. Not "arborist 101" where rookies go to find a way into the business. All I can imagine is Mack and Myer showing up at my curb, Mack jumps out of the truck and lights up a smoke, and waits for Myer to come jogging up behind. Established business? How can a "NEW BUSINESS" be "ESTABLISHED"? Go figure. I need three more cups of coffee, I'm grumpy when I wake up, Joe.


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## IyaMan (Sep 20, 2016)

rarefish383 said:


> The "court order" had me thinking also.



Exactly. What court restricts a driver to only being allowed to operate a vehicle alone? What would be the purpose of this? A limit on an occupational license due to an offence wouldn't restrict co-worker occupants, especially if the occupant also had the same license, and was both business partner and the vehicle's owner (I can imagine some restriction if it were a kid or maybe a non-employee).

To the OP: did you actually see this order in writing? Or did you mean there was an insurance restriction on passengers for him? (this may be possible, I suppose, but its not via a court)


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## rarefish383 (Sep 20, 2016)

I just had to rethink this a little. My cousin had one of his best climbers that was always in DWI trouble. He had a restricted license, and was allowed to drive, to and from, work only. He was not allowed any passengers at all when he was driving. But, he was not allowed to drive a truck at work either. His restricted license was issued to prevent a hard ship on my cousins business. It did not remove the punishment from the climber, by allowing him to ride people around. He also lost his DOT during all this mess. Anyway, I've got two cups down, starting to lighten up, Joe.


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## pro94lt (Sep 20, 2016)

Wow your partnership has all the ingredients of what homeowners fear in a tree service. I'd be out before he gets a massive claim, seems he has absolutely nothing to lose...


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## Pelorus (Sep 20, 2016)

These two partners (Dumb and Devious) in treework (carnage) deserve each other.
One is a bit intelligent (or at least smart enough to fathom his sidekick is a parasite)
The other is a bit cunning ($$$ opportunity presents itself, so he screws over his buddy)

Show your partner this thread, and invite him to post his side of the story....


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## Marshy (Sep 20, 2016)

Maybe consider getting a tracker placed on the company truck so you could see where your partner is driving to make these "quotes" that he is too busy to log.


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## ArthurB (Sep 20, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> Recently i formed a business with my friend. He is the climber, i am the ground guy. I own all the trucks. My partner doesnt own a car.
> 
> Everything's been smooth up untill i cut my leg pretty deep with a saw and was out for two weeks. I was unable to drive or work. My partner took over the estimating as i let him borrow my truck. He also did a few small bush trims he could do himself. We previously contracted that during an injury we still each get our normal pay unless the injured person is out for more than 5 weeks.
> 
> ...



Don't know what the purpose of this thread really is, but it's transparently BS


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## pro94lt (Sep 20, 2016)

Theirs a high probability when your company gets to the jobs he bid you'll be in trouble. I bet he blew the bottom out of some prices that's why I'm saying watch out...


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 22, 2016)

Ya'll scared him away,,,,,
Jeff


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## Paragon Builder (Sep 22, 2016)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ya'll scared him away,,,,,
> Jeff



Lol


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## SirSawsAlot (Oct 20, 2016)

Thanks guys, I worked out my transparent BS stuff by myself, thanks for the support though.

Does anyone know what type of chipper this ole gem is?


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## Zale (Oct 21, 2016)

Ancient.


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2016)

Maybe a Mitts,,
Jeff


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## treesmith (Oct 22, 2016)

SirSawsAlot said:


> Thanks guys, I worked out my transparent BS stuff by myself, thanks for the support though.
> 
> Does anyone know what type of chipper this ole gem is?


Someone stole the drum


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