# Disparaging Remarks



## Tio (Jun 30, 2006)

I sometimes read or hear comments like:

“Oh. . . I had a lawn-care business when I was ten years old.”

Or

“You seem too smart to be cutting down trees for a living.”

Let's get a couple of things perfectly clear here, folks.

Point number one:

When you were ten years old, you mowed a few lawns for money to go to the movies.

Simple as that.

No licenses.

No insurance.

No certifications on pesticides or herbicides.

You cut grass for soda money.

I mow approximately 40 acres of lawn area a week.

I don't do that with a 21” lawn-boy mulching mower.

Point number two:

As for being too smart to “cut down trees for a living,” you can trust me on this; if you are stupid, you will not be in this business for very long.

I don't “cut down trees” for a living.

Cutting them down is a small portion of my income.

I call that fire-wood.

I, and others like me (no matter the rough exteriors), surgically remove dangerous trees with all of the precision that a skilled heart surgeon would use to replace a faulty heart valve in your precious little ticker. 

That's 'bout all I gotta say 'bout that.


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## clearance (Jun 30, 2006)

Tio said:


> “You seem too smart to be cutting down trees for a living.”


Heard almost the exact same words from my sister in law. Any retard can climb trees, sometimes over 150', sometimes around powerlines, what am I doing outside in the the place where tourists come from all over the world to see? Why am I outside when I could be in an office? Why am I away from the public, whining snivellers or dreadfull drivers that many of them are? Why? Wish I was downtown in an office, its friday, yay, drive through the traffic to get home, back on monday, awesome.


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## frashdog (Jun 30, 2006)

Very common misconceptions in lawncare and tree services. Maybe cause we make it look so easy sometimes. 

The, how do I put this nice, uninsured trash redneck hacks out there working for beer and gas money with their "wildthing" wally world chainsaws or better yet craftsman worshipin "treemejaculator" are the ones representin in the wrong direction. 

When friends and/or co-workers start getting down about others behavior to me, I tell them imagine the person in question as having a mental disability that you can do nothing for, pretend you are dealing with a retarded person. In other words they are not on your wave so why hate? 

All I can say is be a pro. If they can't respect they're affirming their intellect.


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## Treeinnovator (Jun 30, 2006)

great thread topic. 

i love when they look at you like you're some low peon, then you mention something like... the cost of your stumpgrinder ....and they realize it costs more than their own car. it also adds a nice touch when i drive up in my brand new Lexus to collect the $$$ after the job's done.

but nothing's better than when you collect the $1000 check for 5 hours of work. if you look close enough you can actually see the customer figure out your hourly rate you just made, while comparing it to their own job's hourly rate. THAT'S when they realize you make 15 times more per hour than they do.


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## Treeinnovator (Jun 30, 2006)

frashdog said:


> The, how do I put this nice, uninsured trash redneck hacks out there working for beer and gas money with their "wildthing" wally world chainsaws or better yet craftsman worshipin "treemejaculator" are the ones representin in the wrong direction. .



believe me, i ain't mis-representin anything.


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 30, 2006)

I've heard a few comments like that.

Fortunately, it was an opposite comment that snatched me back into the industry.

Remember last year, when I was going to quit landscaping and trees, and the only work I could find to get moved to Medford / Jacksonville was selling cars?

One of the salesmen told a customer (wife of a doctor) buying a Cadillac / Buick, that I was new at the dealership, and that I was a Certified Arborist.

The lady's first words were "why are you still working here?'.

And I repeated that same phrase to myself for a week or two. Three weeks later, I was back in business again.


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## frashdog (Jun 30, 2006)

> i love when they look at you like you're some low peon, then you mention something like... the cost of your stumpgrinder ....and they realize it costs more than their own car. it also adds a nice touch when i drive up in my brand new Lexus to collect the $$$ after the job's done.


do you also like it when people reading your posts think you're a peon too? You have a stump grinder? I figured you'd hire some $20 a day workers from the home depot lot and give them some axes. Hey why don't you show us some pics? Like your stumpgrinder and lexus for starts. Ok throw a few of your mighty crapsman saw collection in there too.



> believe me, i ain't mis-representin anything.


oh I believe you in a special olympics kinda way


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## BostonBull (Jun 30, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> great thread topic.
> 
> i love when they look at you like you're some low peon, then you mention something like... the cost of your stumpgrinder ....and they realize it costs more than their own car. it also adds a nice touch when i drive up in my brand new Lexus to collect the $$$ after the job's done.
> 
> but nothing's better than when you collect the $1000 check for 5 hours of work. if you look close enough you can actually see the customer figure out your hourly rate you just made, while comparing it to their own job's hourly rate. THAT'S when they realize you make 15 times more per hour than they do.




$1000 for five hours work? Where you out of? (If you put it in the spot where its supposed to be I wouldnt have to ask.) AND your driving a brand new Lexus and runninga co. on that pay!


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## Log hog (Jun 30, 2006)

*I hear Ya!*

During my years of owning a Tree Service company, many a jackass has said, "must be nice." If you people only knew the half of it. My work day usually starts at about 7am and usually ends around 4-5pm, then it may be 30-60 min of phone calls, then followed by an hour of driving around doing estimates. An hour of driving may be conservative, any where up to three hours some times. I pay more in fuel bills in a year than most people pay on there cars in a year. THATS NOT COUNTING insurance, employees, maintenance on equipment, SUCH AS, (saws, trucks, chippers stump grinders etc), IT KEEPS GOING, boots, shirts, pants, gloves, safety glasses, helmets, JUST GETTING STARTED, thousands in advertisements, sponsorships, donations, lets not forget all the wonderful payments on the stump grinders, chippers, booms, chip trucks, tractors, etc. I really think that most people think that cutting down a tree is just that cutting it down and it magically disappears. They don't fathom the physical work involved in removing a tree or trimming it. Here's a good example, I have a friend that is laid off during the winter from his concrete job so he works for me, he goes back to work in late may so I have a week or so till a college kid starts in June. A buddy of mine just got laid off and needed a few bucks, so I let him work for me. I kid you not his ass was dragging after about three hours in 60 degree weather.Just from dragging brush from two poplar trees. He looked at me a few times while dragging the brush as if I was nuts for doing this every day. So I say to him, ya still think I lay on the couch all day and watch soaps. Some people do respect us, and treat us as professionals, but I think many may not. I tell some customers that my price may not be the cheapest, but what your getting for your dollar is the an experienced professional with the equipment and know how to get the job done right the first time, and insurance to back all that up. Still after all that to call it my own, well ya just can't beat that feeling.


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## Tio (Jun 30, 2006)

Let's not thrash anyone here. . .please.

I started this thread (perhaps mistakenly) because I needed a little bit of a vent and wanted to see if others had had (hate that, does not seem grammatically correct) the same experience.


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## Tio (Jun 30, 2006)

Log hog said:


> so I let him work for me. I kid you not his ass was dragging after about three hours in 60 degree weather.Just from dragging brush from two poplar trees.



Draggin' brush is a suck-a** job.

I say still... I will work a twenty year old until his d**k is dragging in the dirt, and still be able to have a few beers and whip his a** at darts.


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## Log hog (Jun 30, 2006)

I think part of it is that we are conditioned, that we do it day in and day out. I also think alot of it has to do with the guys attitude. Some just got it and some don't. I don't know about all them dart games, but having a few Crown-n-Cokes works just fine for me.


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## frashdog (Jun 30, 2006)

> Let's not thrash anyone here. . .please.
> 
> I started this thread (perhaps mistakenly) because I needed a little bit of a vent and wanted to see if others had had (hate that, does not seem grammatically correct) the same experience


I'm sorry, that is for clouding you're thread with off topic trash. 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Log hog
> so I let him work for me. I kid you not his ass was dragging after about three hours in 60 degree weather.Just from dragging brush from two poplar trees.
> 
> ...


gotta love gettin paid to stay in shape with climbing, brush dragging and log lifting. Can't imagine paying gym memberships or "working out" with weights for hours a day.


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## jmack (Jul 1, 2006)

Log hog said:


> During my years of owning a Tree Service company, many a jackass has said, "must be nice." If you people only knew the half of it. My work day usually starts at about 7am and usually ends around 4-5pm, then it may be 30-60 min of phone calls, then followed by an hour of driving around doing estimates. An hour of driving may be conservative, any where up to three hours some times. I pay more in fuel bills in a year than most people pay on there cars in a year. THATS NOT COUNTING insurance, employees, maintenance on equipment, SUCH AS, (saws, trucks, chippers stump grinders etc), IT KEEPS GOING, boots, shirts, pants, gloves, safety glasses, helmets, JUST GETTING STARTED, thousands in advertisements, sponsorships, donations, lets not forget all the wonderful payments on the stump grinders, chippers, booms, chip trucks, tractors, etc. I really think that most people think that cutting down a tree is just that cutting it down and it magically disappears. They don't fathom the physical work involved in removing a tree or trimming it. Here's a good example, I have a friend that is laid off during the winter from his concrete job so he works for me, he goes back to work in late may so I have a week or so till a college kid starts in June. A buddy of mine just got laid off and needed a few bucks, so I let him work for me. I kid you not his ass was dragging after about three hours in 60 degree weather.Just from dragging brush from two poplar trees. He looked at me a few times while dragging the brush as if I was nuts for doing this every day. So I say to him, ya still think I lay on the couch all day and watch soaps. Some people do respect us, and treat us as professionals, but I think many may not. I tell some customers that my price may not be the cheapest, but what your getting for your dollar is the an experienced professional with the equipment and know how to get the job done right the first time, and insurance to back all that up. Still after all that to call it my own, well ya just can't beat that feeling.


well said log


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 1, 2006)

Log hog said:


> A buddy of mine just got laid off and needed a few bucks, so I let him work for me. I kid you not his ass was dragging after about three hours in 60 degree weather.Just from dragging brush from two poplar trees. He looked at me a few times while dragging the brush as if I was nuts for doing this every day..



oh it's definitely tough work, but you have to remember WE do it because we are getting paid good for it. there's no way i'd do the same work for the standard hourly rate groundies get.

one of my groundies recently tried my spikes. we had to take off a big awkward branch. he couldn't get past the 2nd step up and said F this, it's scary. so i went up and did it myself and took the branch down in a few minutes. afterwards i said to him, "would you have done that for $150?". he said "hell ya, even if i had to monkey climb that sucker." i said, "well now you know why i went up there."


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 1, 2006)

frashdog said:


> I'm sorry, that is for clouding you're thread with off topic trash.
> .



hey Frashdog, i accept your apology too !!!


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 1, 2006)

BostonBull said:


> $1000 for five hours work? Where you out of? (If you put it in the spot where its supposed to be I wouldnt have to ask.) AND your driving a brand new Lexus and runninga co. on that pay!



it's not where you put it as much as how much of it comes in. i run an efficient and high margin operation. i don't waste money. no need for expensive equipment when you can rent the same thing for a day at 1/1000th the price.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 1, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> oh it's definitely tough work, but you have to remember WE do it because we are getting paid good for it. there's no way i'd do the same work for the standard hourly rate groundies get.


You're right, I wouldn't climb for the hourly rate YOU pay your groundies. But seriously, if I had gone to college like I originally planned, I would probably be making better money nowdays. But I love tree work-I think that is the only way to explain why I do the job day after day, although on the days when it is 10 below and I'm climbing a beech tree, I have some quick second thoughts about my career choice. 

On the original topic, It does drive me nuts when the homeowner thinks they could do the job simply because they saw someone climb on tv and it looks easy. Fortunately, this doesn't happen often on removals-the homeowner sees you rope off a major lead over their house, and they suddenly seem to realize it was a good idea to call a pro.


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## woodchux (Jul 1, 2006)

I think that alot of it has to do with the husbands being jealous that they can't preform the task. I try to humor them and say, sure you could of done it easy, if she would have only let you try. HA


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## Koa Man (Jul 1, 2006)

Tio said:


> Draggin' brush is a suck-a** job.



What are you talking about? I love to pull brush and haul logs.
Problem is my groundman loves it too.


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## bottlefed89 (Jul 1, 2006)

Koa.. I'd like to see a pic of all you equip some time, sounds like you have a lot of neat toys..
Back to topic, I hate it as well. I added mowing a few years ago when we weren't staying busy, and I needed to keep help doing something. we mow about 48 yards, generally just on Thursdays and Fridays. 3 guys. We mow for a machine shop, the guy is a good buddy, so we only charge $30/mow. It is my cheapest account. It normally takes us 4 minutes to mow, trim and blow everything off, then about 15 minutes for him to rant about how I have it made, he wishes he was young so he could make all that money...
I also have an uncle that work for my pops in a warehouse that always has a comment about how he wishes he could play outside all day, or something of the like.

I should invite them to shadow me for a week, I think that'd fix em. I recently began a huge firewood endeavor, it's taking a lot of my money, and I leave the house at about 4am and get home at 10-11pm. Wish everyone could have it as easy as us...


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## Tio (Jul 1, 2006)

Koa Man said:


> What are you talking about? I love to pull brush and haul logs.
> Problem is my groundman loves it too.



*Talking to puppy voice*

Awwwwww. . . look! It's so cute!

I want one!

Truth is. . . a lot of times my 1845 is just too much for the job.

What kind of lifting capacity on that little sweetie?

How high?

Can I have it?


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## bottlefed89 (Jul 1, 2006)

Yeah, I've got a skidsteer, even when it's not too big, it is a pain to take..


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## Koa Man (Jul 1, 2006)

Tio,
It has a 700 lb. lifting cap. to full height, which is about 69 inches. We use it to machine feed the chipper, makes it at least 5 times faster than feeding by hand. Big advantage of this machine is we can haul it around on the back of a full size pickup and it does not tear up lawns at all, even when making the tightest turns the machine is capable of. I have even run it on fine lawns 2 hours after the sprinklers shut off with no problem. I love that machine. It will run hard all day on 4 gal. of diesel. If you got brush to drag a 100 ft. or more, 8 groundmen will not be able to keep up with 2 groundmen and that machine.


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## Tio (Jul 1, 2006)

bottlefed89 said:


> Yeah, I've got a skidsteer, even when it's not too big, it is a pain to take..



Yep.

That little honey looks like it ain't too much of a pain to tag along though.

Ekka has one kind of like that one.

I am awful curious about them little honeys.


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## Tio (Jul 1, 2006)

Koa,

That is a sweet little machine.

If I could justify the cost, I would be having me one of them right now. . . today!

What kind of attachments will it take?

Small shear?

Post hole digger?

Bucket?

*edit*

Looking at them now.


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## hugashe (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm looking at getting a Toro-Dingo let me know what you all think.


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## Koa Man (Jul 1, 2006)

Any attachment that has a universal mini skid mount can be placed on that machine. I have a trencher, standard and 4/1 buckets, pallet forks, stump grinder, grapple, tow hitch (great to move the trailer and chipper around), and rippers. There are about 50 different attachments you can put on it.

hugashe,
get a Boxer or Thomas. Thomas probably most bang for the buck. Boxer for great versatility (variably track width and greater lift and height than the Dingo. All the mini skids will tear up the lawn making turns.


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## Tio (Jul 1, 2006)

Now... I don't know why the word irony comes to mind here.

I started out whining about how most of these folks who hire us to do a job, sort of look down on us because we are some kind of simpletons or something.

Everything is going along just fine. . . b**ching an' all...

AND THEN (drum roll please)

Along comes Koa with a picture of a pretty.

Now all of a sudden I am googling this little sucker and going OOOOHHHH and AHHHHHH!

*laughs at self*

It occurs to me... maybe I ain't so smart after all.

Hey look!

A shiny. . .

*wanders of into the woods*


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## frashdog (Jul 2, 2006)

> oh it's definitely tough work, but you have to remember WE do it because we are getting paid good for it. there's no way i'd do the same work for the standard hourly rate groundies get.
> 
> one of my groundies recently tried my spikes. we had to take off a big awkward branch. he couldn't get past the 2nd step up and said F this, it's scary. so i went up and did it myself and took the branch down in a few minutes. afterwards i said to him, "would you have done that for $150?". he said "hell ya, even if i had to monkey climb that sucker." i said, "well now you know why i went up there."


OK so you're gonna send up a groundie (at you're groundie pay) on spikes to prune?? Nice....



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by frashdog
> I'm sorry, that is for clouding you're thread with off topic trash.
> .
> ...


yea, I'm sorry bro.... but you're the off topic trash. Actually maybe you should start a trash company too. I like the sounds of trashinator...$500 a trashcan

No pics yet huh


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## buff (Jul 2, 2006)

I just do not see how anyone in the tree business can say that they get stumps taken with axes for $20.


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## Ekka (Jul 2, 2006)

I quoted a customer once $60 to grind a stump out, they were flabberghasted  

Then asked how much less it would be if I dug it out.  

The customers have little regard for your health. They often treat you as a machine not a human.

I've had easily felled palms with huge fat heads being argued for a block down, the customer thinks unless you are busted they haven't got value for money. The easier you make it look the more ripped off they feel.

"I can simply fell it here and cut it up, no worries" response, "but I'd prefer you go up there and cut it up in bits, isn't that what you are supposed to do?"  

Sometimes I tell them how I will do the job, other times not, you have to read the people well. Then (like Koa) you bring in the mini loader and smash the job in no time ... well, they can get the chits. Be careful, and remember that satisfying the customer comes from their perspective not yours ... so sell the job after you're done too. 

If you whipped it in no time sell them the professionalism, knowledge, equipment factor that made it look quick and easy, and let them know that they were wise in their choice of choosing you over unequipped incompetance that may have torn their yard up and left them with inconvenience for hours or days longer.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 2, 2006)

Ekka said:


> I quoted a customer once $60 to grind a stump out, they were flabberghasted
> 
> Then asked how much less it would be if I dug it out.
> 
> ...



well said Ekka.

i usually go into a whole song and dance about how hard it will be to climb up and piece it all out with rigging, etc. then i come by during the week (intentionally) while they're at work and take the whole tree down in one cut, chop it up, and haul it away. when they come home they go, "wow, he actually climbed up there and did all he said he was going to do." 

if they only knew ...lol


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 2, 2006)

frashdog said:


> OK so you're gonna send up a groundie (at you're groundie pay) on spikes to prune?? Nice....
> 
> No pics yet huh



yes i send up the groundies. how else will they learn if you don't send 'em up.

here's your pic.... see attached


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## BostonBull (Jul 2, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> yes i send up the groundies. how else will they learn if you don't send 'em up.
> 
> here's your pic.... see attached




You never cease to amaze me. I hope you dont have a family, or if you do I hope everything you say you do is all a lie because with your comments,if they are true your family will miss you. You seem like a very unsafe/unprofessional worker. 

Spikes on prunings? :bang:


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## frashdog (Jul 2, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by frashdog
> OK so you're gonna send up a groundie (at you're groundie pay) on spikes to prune?? Nice....
> 
> ...


dude I'll give it up....that's funny.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 2, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> well said Ekka.
> 
> i usually go into a whole song and dance about how hard it will be to climb up and piece it all out with rigging, etc. then i come by during the week (intentionally) while they're at work and take the whole tree down in one cut, chop it up, and haul it away. when they come home they go, "wow, he actually climbed up there and did all he said he was going to do."
> 
> if they only knew ...lol


The problem with this is that usually when I take down a tree, I get neighbors watching what's going on. You can be sure they will sooner or later discuss the job with the homeowner. If I did it differently than I originally told the homeowner, they are going to feel they got ripped off and there goes your reputation. Granted, there are exceptions, but if I say I have to climb a tree, I climb it. And if it is just an easy drop and drag job, well I let them know that too.

Now onto letting groundies climb. My problem with your method is that you let them climb after only a couple days of tree work. They don't know their knots, rigging methods, how to run their crapsman, etc. I am a fan of keeping a groundie on the ground for at least a year before starting to climb. Yes, actually climbing can be a good way to learn, but if they've been on the ground for an extended period of time, they can learn alot just by watching. I started climbing after only three months on the ground, and looking back I realize I made alot of stupid mistakes that could have been avoided if I had watched how someone else handled problems in a tree. Don't get me wrong, just going out and climbing is a good way to learn, but why not save your groundies some headaches and let them learn from someone else's mistakes. (and considering who I'm talking to, they'd probably learn alot from your mistakes)


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## frashdog (Jul 2, 2006)

> I quoted a customer once $60 to grind a stump out, they were flabberghasted
> 
> Then asked how much less it would be if I dug it out.
> 
> ...


Ekka, so true. Perspective sells, if you look like a pro (which you do on your vids) it get is soo much easier. 

When I first started a customer handed us a $500+ check and said, " you can get alot of pizzas for that huh?". We looked like college kids with a beat up old truck. Now we show up with a nice F-350 diesel, decent chipper and tucked inshirts. Helps for the respect part. The proof is when the customer rounds the price up or say's something like you guys do good work, or if you need a refrence don't hesitate to ask.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 2, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> I am a fan of keeping a groundie on the ground for at least a year before starting to climb.
> 
> I started climbing after only three months on the ground, and looking back I realize I made alot of stupid mistakes that could have been avoided if I had watched how someone else handled problems in a tree.



1) a year??? lololol... christ, i can't keep workers for more than a couple of months before they get burnt out or get a better jobs. i'm sure we can all agree that one of the hardest parts of our industry is the employee's dependability.

2) man, i must really be running things backwards from the rest of you guys. i started from day one climbing. why, cuz i had to in order to get paid by the customer. i got INC'ed, bought insurance, and a stumpgrinder in one week and started knocking on doors. that's how i got into the biz. there was no one else to do the work to learn from. i learned how to cut wedges and take down trees from the little instruction booklet that comes with a brand new chainsaw. i learned how to use spikes and harness from the tree supply shop's salesman. 

so i guess what i'm saying, is that i think several months being a groundie is wasted time. he could be climbing instead if shown a few quick tricks.


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## buff (Jul 3, 2006)

None of the rest of you who are criticizing this guy for putting climbers in the trees right away spent a year pulling limbs and grunting over chunks. If you did it is because you were grunts whose employer did not plan on training as a climber. I want you guys to quit this going back and forth.


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## Tio (Jul 3, 2006)

*Returns from his walkabout*

Hmmm. . .

*Shakes head sadly, and leaves again*


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## Tio (Jul 3, 2006)

I would venture to say that the biggest part of us did not have any 'formal' teaching when we were learning to climb.

I know I didn't.

Yet, I live and have never been injured. I still have all of my fingers, toes, and various other appendages. . . and they all work according to design specs.

It is not luck.

It is a willingness to learn, as well a willingness to adapt to other methods which are an improvement over your own style.

All of your little 'safety rules' and 'regulations' are indicative of larger and more intrusive government.

What really matters is common sense.

I do not need an organization to teach me that.

You either have it or you don't. . . end of story.

Every thing we do in this industry (and in life) is a calculated risk.

We can do things to 'stack the deck' more in our favor, BUT, it is still a risk.

Will that tree fall where I planned?

Probably.

But there are no guarantees. . . EVER. . . end of story.

A bolt might break, a cable snap, or a boom fail at a critical moment; thus setting into motion an irreversible chain of events which can ultimately lead to our death. . . or worse.

Everything is temporary.

Including us.

On a side note:

Learn to argue your points in a logical and calm manner. Present facts, documentation, whatever it takes to prove your point.

Do not just attack out of hand.

It weakens your argument.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 3, 2006)

I hate to say it but the tree game is a thankless job,many moons ago I did a bit of 'home removal work' [tree work was quiet] I did around 20 jobs and i'll guess 80% of the customers gave me a monetery tip ,they were all over the moon and so thankfull,I can go months without a client offering my groundie a tip [not that i'm after tips].

Not the same the tree bizz,most customers get my company name wrong ,loose our numbers,have me do one job ,then get someone else to do another,and vise versa.

The other day we did a shrub removal job for a retired guy,it took half an hour I charged the customer £75 he nearly fainted when I told him I was finnished.

The other evening I went out to bid on a stump,it was a steering wheel size thing,no chips to take away ,my price was £60,he told me he would have to consider it..:bang:


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jul 3, 2006)

Heaven forbid a lowelly tree man turns up to a bid in a nice car,I go to bids now in my old work truck,my commercial /ute /nissan pick-up sent a few potential clients crazy with envy,you could see it in there faces and some asked the value,I explaned this truck is not a Range Rover,or Porche [a bloody 2004 pick-up for jeez sake]


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## xtremetrees (Jul 3, 2006)

thats just crazy. I think its more so volume of customers than quality or educational level..


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

X, What are you trying to say?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> thats just crazy. I think its more so volume of customers than quality or educational level..


X, What are you trying to say? Poor quality will follow you and haunt you and maybe sue you. Good Quality eventually gets you the volume you desire and a _perceived_ educational level. Rarely will you ever get asked about your background and education. Quality is the engine. Everything else is details.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 4, 2006)

9 out of 10 customers that call me could care less if I spike trims they just want a good price. I do educate them. i dont blame them really. If trimming they would go with me (maybe) but how do you compete with a 1/4 million dollars worth of gear thats just selling price.? You cant.

For instance I bid 11 pines to remove at $4,000. All over the powerlines etc.
The job went for $1,100 bucks I originally priced the job at 5,400!. Do you think the customer opted for a C.A. NO they could care less but saved 3 grand! . Maybe I need to stop folling myself about my C.A. credientials and actually feed my family and become a micro-logger. With the cash I've spent on testing, booking, seminars, travel, lectures, email diagnosis (time is money) all that cash could go toward a old log truck and I could feed my family better.

I'm seriously thinking about just doing removals.

Until the ISA starts pulling the C.A's certifications for spikeing trims why should I continue to suffer our ethics.

I dont know if I'll keep my C.A. or let it lapse.C.A. is turning into a voluenteer effort more than anything. Because I dont have alot of showy gear IE. bucket, new dumps they want it cheap...Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A.and barely pay decent wages.Maybe thats why there are so many C.A.'s over 40 years of age and not the younger generation because where I'm standing its just not so profitable. Time is money and throwballing 10 trim take time. Whereas I could just walk all up um in mear minutes. It hasnt come to it yet but its close. I keep holding to my ethics and maybe Ill get out of trees altogether. I look at the oldest operating tree companies in my area. They call wanting my help. None of them are holding to our ethics and are lucrative business owners. Maybe I should listen to them folks spiking trims.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 4, 2006)

Further more off the top of my head , I'm just guessing out of 10 C.A. companies only 2 of them dont spikes trims. Of these two companies maybe its 90 % workforce is of latino decent.

Or if they are American
Lissen they get a C.A. listing, they get a bucket truck to justify and appear professional and its on. They leave the throwball at the house.

Oh you doubt me? 
I would get a camera and take close ups. But another mans business is not my own. I could care less. It simpley is none of my businees to tell another treeman or judge them even, but they make money off my sweat of holding to C.A. of that I'm sure.

So ISA pull those C.A.'s that are making money off my C.A. name.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 4, 2006)

extremetrees,
it's not your ethics, it's your marketing. i follow the rules (never spike trims, never hat rack, etc.) and i still manage to run circles around my competitors. i have other tree guys calling me all the time trying to get sub work. obviously they must not be as busy. the difference... i market differently than they do.


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## Tio (Jul 5, 2006)

The ethics have absolutely nothing to do with it when you are trying to feed a family.

You can sit there and talk all day long about your ethics, C.A, I.S.A, and what have you. . . but when it comes down to putting food on the table, paying the bills, keeping the little woman in Wal-Mart money. . . your ethics and BS will go right out the window. . . just like mine did when I was cutting them big old Mahogany trees down in Honduras.

I don't spike trims.

BULLS***T!

You will do whatever it takes to feed your family, buy that pretty new toy, or whatever.

Don't even try to feed a line of ethics here.


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## treeseer (Jul 5, 2006)

"9 out of 10 customers that call me could care less if I spike trims"
"Out of 1 year operating a business I've gotten one or two clients that recognize C.A."
you are in a low-educated market then.:help: 
Doesn't your county have an agricultural extension that gets phone calls from the public. They should be recommending c.a,'s. I get a lot of referrals there.



Your rant about c.a. competitors spiking trims has been going on for months. 
And if you've got such a bone in your brain about it, go ahead and phot or videotape them in action, and do something about it. 
I don't spike trims, I'm old, and I rarely use a throwball, yet I get up there faster than either method. A ladder gets me up the first 32 or 40' easy as pie.

If you're losing so much time with a throwball, use a ladder.:yoyo:


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## rebelman (Jul 5, 2006)

Thank you seer. But XMan is right about all these certified and ISA or TCIA members using spikes, or flush cutting, or angled stubs on the back side of the tree, etc. I mean why join if your level of work is already higher than than pedigreed companies?


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## clearance (Jul 5, 2006)

I don't give a flying ----, but I find it funny and also pathetic that those who scream about spurs like a bunch of whining babies do nothing to stop ISA certified people from doing it. Or to have them kicked out of the ISA, like the biggest utility in BC, that exports power to California, all of the vegetation managers it employs (the supervisors and controllers of powerline treework) are ISA certified. All of them, yet all trees under thier control are climbed with spurs, those that are out of bucket reach that is. All trees, I have brought this up, shown phone numbers and the BC Hydro website but all the ISA culls here can do is snivel and whine, not one of them has called or e-mailed BC Hydro for an explanation and talked about it. Losers, do something or else ****. Cheers, Jim


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## buff (Jul 5, 2006)

Jim...whatever you are taking. It ain't no good for you.


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## BostonBull (Jul 5, 2006)

I for once agree with clearance. There needs to be stricter standards for Isa and especially TCIA certs.


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## Ekka (Jul 6, 2006)

Interesting, spike or dont spike, hatrack or dont hatrack, earn or miss out, too dear for Rolla, too cheap must be bad???

The other day a woman across the road from where I was bidding asked me to go over and give her a price for trimming a tree.

Well, in the backyard she had a horribly resprouted topped Leapard tree ... it was awful, and she wanted it hacked again.

Being an idiot that likes to uphold good arboricultural practices I informed her of the consequences etc and that i wouldn't rehack it.

Her exact words were ... "well, your a bringer of bad news, I suppose not much good to me then, off you go."

Funny how people confuse truth as bad news isn't it.

And I left, she will simply get the next bloke to hack it, now this was a wealthy woman in a rich suburb ... coincidently both neighbouring houses had topped trees ... they all live on a hill and want a view.

What an opinionated industry, some will top others wont, just depends whos opinion the customer wants to hear.


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## squisher (Jul 6, 2006)

I have to agree with clearance as well. I see private companys flying the ISA flag and using their certification to get work and then they'll top or spur trims (if they can climb). Kind of discredits the ISA I think but who has time to police what others are doing, where I'm from there's lots of work to go around.

squisher


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## beowulf343 (Jul 6, 2006)

squisher said:


> I have to agree with clearance as well. I see private companys flying the ISA flag and using their certification to get work and then they'll top or spur trims (*if they can climb*). Kind of discredits the ISA I think but who has time to police what others are doing, where I'm from there's lots of work to go around.
> 
> squisher


I have run across this problem with a suprising number of ca's-they don't know how to climb! How can you call yourself an arborist and not know how to climb? It is a basic method of tree pruning and care. Makes me glad I'm not a ca-I've seen too many that were an embarrassment to the industry.


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## clearance (Jul 6, 2006)

Yes, 343, many are pathetic, whats worse, they use thier ISA bs credentials to make decisions and direct people. From asking me to climb stone cold dead snags, wildlifing trees (making snags) beside paths, leaving big cottonwoods that lean towards houses after trees of the same size have blown over right next to them, it goes on and on. I would have respect for the ISA if they weren't all about money, kind of like the become an ordained minister adds in the back of magazines. Letting anyone that pays wear thier colors, use the illusion of competence that the gullible public have in "experts". Seen as none of the usual ISA wankers have stepped in, I guess they have decided to ****, like I asked.


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## Ekka (Jul 7, 2006)

clearance said:


> ISA wankers



Ha, your starting to use Aussie terminology calling people that. lol

They do have to sit a test so atleast you know they passed something ... no?

The concept though has merrit, pass your exam, get certified ... and even a continual points system to stay certified. Good concept, but it's failed yes?

So, how can it be fixed, ISA pulls certification ... I don't know anymore, unless there's enforcable regs who cares? If the ISA pulled their certification they'd just get another one from somewhere else, I'm sure the ISA doesn't have a monopoly on arborist training. There's other places isn't there?

What about these local county's stipulating you must be an ISA certified arborist, if they pulled your certification and notified the county you'd be in deep chit.

Things are different here, no-one can pull your certification ... ever. You passed the exam you got the ticket, what you do after that is really up to you. You can belong to some organisations and submit to their "ethics", I suppose they can kick you out, big deal, your still certified.

The only true enforcement would be fining the malpractice. Like getting a licence to drive a car, you break the rules you get a fine, quick and easy.

Interesting hey?


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## elmnut (Jul 7, 2006)

My company runs 3 toro dingos equipped with a branch manager grapple,(awsome, google "branch manager grapple", good service also) a 30" plant auger, trencher(8"), forks and bucket. Also using an ASV posi-trac 50 with flat tracks that minimize lawn repair. (the dingos are track models also, and they never call in sick)


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 7, 2006)

elmnut said:


> My company runs 3 toro dingos equipped with a branch manager grapple,(awsome, google "branch manager grapple", good service also) a 30" plant auger, trencher(8"), forks and bucket. Also using an ASV posi-trac 50 with flat tracks that minimize lawn repair. (the dingos are track models also, and they never call in sick)



did you buy new or used....how much?
is it so good you kick yourself for not buying one sooner?


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## clearance (Jul 7, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Ground bound certified arborist are way better than tree climbing hackers!


Better for what? What do they do, except make stupid decisions to risk peoples lives and property? Ground bound, to useless to climb, pencil pushing fags. Anyways Treeco, what are you doing about ISA certs. approving pruning with spikes, nothing, like an ISA fag thats ground bound, cheers.


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## buff (Jul 7, 2006)

CLEARENCE......You really need to quit the hard stuff and stick with alcohol.


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## clearance (Jul 7, 2006)

buff said:


> CLEARENCE......You really need to quit the hard stuff and stick with alcohol.


I don't drink, don't use, you need to learn how to spell, right in front of your eyes, Clearance. What are you doing to make sure that ISA certified people follow the "rules"? Nothing, of course, like the other ISA babies on site. Put up or shut up.


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## treeseer (Jul 7, 2006)

"The concept though has merrit, pass your exam, get certified ... and even a continual points system to stay certified. Good concept, but ...I'm sure the ISA doesn't have a monopoly on arborist training. There's other places isn't there?"

Not another national arborist certification program I know of. Utilities of course have their own cert. Some states have tighter standards than ISA, but I don't know if they enforce--anyone from NJ etc know of a case where a cert was pulled for malpractice?

Thanks again for the offer C, but I won't be writing BC Hydro on your behalf. I got troubles enough at home.:notrolls2:


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## clearance (Jul 7, 2006)

treeseer said:


> "The concept though has merrit, pass your exam, get certified ... and even a continual points system to stay certified. Good concept, but ...I'm sure the ISA doesn't have a monopoly on arborist training. There's other places isn't there?"
> 
> Not another national arborist certification program I know of. Utilities of course have their own cert. Some states have tighter standards than ISA, but I don't know if they enforce--anyone from NJ etc know of a case where a cert was pulled for malpractice?
> 
> Thanks again for the offer C, but I won't be writing BC Hydro on your behalf. I got troubles enough at home.:notrolls2:


I said as much, lame, shut your whining mouth about spurs forever then. Pretty funny how many people who are ISA certified do nothing to ensure only ISA rules are followed by ISA people. Kind of like cops letting a fellow cop sell crack, a motorcycle club letting a guy who got a sex change stay in thier club, an airline letting a pilot drink on the job....and so on, pathetic. No pride in the outfit you are members in.


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## buff (Jul 7, 2006)

CLEARENCE......I am sorry that you have reached the age you are and did not acquire any education. But do you have to beat everybody over the head that did make the effort?


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## Ekka (Jul 8, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Not another national arborist certification program I know of. Utilities of course have their own cert. Some states have tighter standards than ISA, but I don't know if they enforce--anyone from NJ etc know of a case where a cert was pulled for malpractice?



OK, so they're up there and well established and recognised. They do have an ISA climber cert too. So you can get climbing certified as well as all other stuff like cabling etc.

Clearance, you are a pretty tough straight shooter, these ISA guys aren't all rotten eggs now are they? 

It is poor that nothing happens but really, an authority with power has to do it. I'm not sure if the ISA has the right to pull certs and fine people.

Yes, the issue that not all are by the book bothers many, but beating up on them all may not be the solution.

I dont have the answers either, but I can say that educating the client can be a waste of time, self regulation doesn't work, so the only thing I can see is the big stick coming out hitting the malpractices in the wallet. And until they do it, it will continue. 

Over here, it's all butchering and spiking, no-one cares, especially the customer ... they just want a bargain. 

Other areas you need to comply, permits to do works, post works inspections etc ... so it can be done. 

The day people realise trees are an asset and require proper care things will change, but to many they're just an...

obstacle obscuring a view

a leaf dropping hinderence

a potential blow over damaging their house

a source of firewood and building materials

a scavanger of water and nutrients to other more deserving flowers

an allelopathic eyesaw to undergrowth

a harbinger of feral pests and rodents

a solar obstructor

A radio and TV signal shadower

.... Oh, I think you get my drift.


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## clearance (Jul 8, 2006)

buff said:


> CLEARENCE......I am sorry that you have reached the age you are and did not acquire any education. But do you have to beat everybody over the head that did make the effort?


Lets see, I am allowed to work around powerlines here because I am educated, a utility arborist. That takes six weeks of school, 1200 hours of supervised work in close proximety to power, tests in the first year and a final test along with the ok from your employer. A far cry from an ISA utilty specialist, who would not be allowed to work around power here, ISA master whatever, you'd be chipping my brush. Ha, ha, ha, the utility here gives a lot of money to the ISA, and everyone it employs climbs with spurs. Make the effort??? Said it here before and I'll say it again, a smart 12 year old could pass the test. Couldn't even start a saw, you are certified, what a freaking joke. The ISA lets in anyone, from good guys to culls, seen it myself.


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## Ekka (Jul 8, 2006)

clearance said:


> The ISA lets in anyone, from good guys to culls, seen it myself.



Even bad guys pass exams.

Is it not a matter of passing an exam? You do not have to be a member of the ISA to do the exam do you?

For example, could I get my ISA CA but not be an ISA member?

I'm just getting the facts of how it works.


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## clearance (Jul 8, 2006)

Ekka said:


> Even bad guys pass exams.
> 
> Is it not a matter of passing an exam? You do not have to be a member of the ISA to do the exam do you?
> 
> ...


I am not the one to ask, never will be. I hope that BC Hydro leaves the ISA or gets kicked out. Consider this Erik, when I came to this site people called me many names and slagged me and utility guys in general, unqualified around power guys gave dangerous advice etc. I responded by saying that instead of biatching to me that they should talk to BC Hydro about every one climbing with spurs, I supplied contact information, which no one used. So that is why I lost even more respect for the ISA, some of its members (on this site in particular) just whine and cry like babies about spurs, but do not a freaking thing about it, wankers. I know guys who are ISA, good guys I like, that trained me, and they climb with spurs, it really is a bit of a laugh. What does it take, a hack like me pushing to have standards upheld? Kind of like a drug dealer telling the police to clean the junkies out of the nieghborhood, c'mon.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 8, 2006)

Ekka said:


> You do not have to be a member of the ISA to do the exam do you?
> 
> For example, could I get my ISA CA but not be an ISA member?


I'd never given that a thought, but it's a good question.

I think you're encouraged to also join your State chapters of the ISA so you can be connected at a more local level. Then there's professional affiliations you can be part of, pay and join.


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## Ekka (Jul 8, 2006)

I know Clearance, I am in 2 frames of mind at this particular time regarding these organisations and their ethics.

Training, frankly, the organisations around here dont offer what I need so fat lot of good they are. I have to find a private college and pay for tuition. But finding one around here is like finding hens teeth.

Ethics, dont spur climb or top trees, only if you are a member, so many are not ... why would you be if it prevents you topping a tree? I've heard it hundreds of times, screw the QAA I'll just spike up there and top it and get my $750 ... just get the customer to sign something first if you are worried of liability. Can anyone fine you or prosecute .... no.

So, no-one gives a chit.

And the good guys miss out, and even get called righteous wankers, tree huggers, "dont get him he'll argue and not do it" etc. It is very hard when there is no laws and I'm seriously starting to think of telling all the lawmakers and ethical do gooders to get a right royal F'd and I'll bastardise the trees for profit coz it's legal.

Oh, if you want a pro by the book pruning job, I can do that too.

When the slack assed fags make some laws then I'll stick to them. But right now our town is totally soaked with hacks and wankers, and waving a QAA or ISA flag around aint getting you in the gate.

The common layperson around these parts demands their trees be topped, and if you spike them that's OK, sort of like aerating the lawn isn't it? lol:biggrinbounce2: 

And I dare say where you are it aint against the law either. Oh it's not the best thing for the tree, we know that, but like one guy said to me, "by the time you have stuffed around with that bigshot, set your friction saver, prussiked up there etc I'd be packing up" give the client 2 prices and let them choose maybe?


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## trevmcrev (Jul 8, 2006)

Hey ekka, are there no Local Laws or Vegetation Protevtion Overlays up where you are? Down here in Melbourne nearly every council in the South East of Victoria where we operate does. Strict rules on what you can & cant do, permits required for nearly everything, and the council will fine your ass and the homeowners if you do anything wrong. One council even has a blanket policy that "No Height Reduction Is Allowed" even if done properly. 

You still see the odd tree slip through where the homeowner did it themselves or hired a gardener(might as well let your plumber do it) or hired an out of towner who doesnt know/care about permits. There have been some big fines dished out around here, and several criminal convictions, mainly to the developers that dont give a stuff about a $10,000 fine if they can fit another $750,000 townhouse on the block. Also good opportunities for training/qualifications down here with Melb. Uni(Burnley) and NMIT.

Still at the end of the day we compete against unqualified cowboys doing poor work and have a constant battle educating clients towards better methods to achieve what they want when theyve seen their neighbors lopped tree and figure they should do that too. :monkey: see :monkey: do!

I think council permits if structured well do eventually lead to better tree work and less lopping but it takes time. Also i think its somewhat generational. Younger, educated clients seem to respect your knowledge more, acknowledgeing that youre the expert and they are not. The older ones hvae seen hundreds of lopped trees throughout their lives. They "bush up again" they really dont believe otherwise.

Trev


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## treeseer (Jul 8, 2006)

"a motorcycle club letting a guy who got a sex change stay in thier club"

Sounds like a Freudian Slip.  There he goes again, slandering the transgendered this time. Our local Harley club lets em stay in, but only if they ride sidesaddle. opcorn: 

"i think its somewhat generational. Younger, educated clients seem to respect your knowledge more, acknowledgeing that youre the expert and they are not."

trev you are right; Educated clients are worth the effort. 

"one guy said to me, "by the time you have stuffed around with that bigshot, set your friction saver, prussiked up there etc I'd be packing up"

ekka, that guy has not seen skilled climbers, then, if that's what he thinks.


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## Ekka (Jul 8, 2006)

There is bugger all protection up here, it's a flamin embarrassment, shame shame shame derrin Hinch would say.

And all you'll get is lip service and BS from council, they actually think they're doing a good job. sure there is the odd protection order but i can tell you it's rare.

Gold Coast city council has cleaned up the act a fair bit with protection orders but up here it's bad.

I often ring the councils to check, no protection, you'll see topped and lopped trees everywhere including TAFE college and govt schools!

The power line trimmers are setting the best example of tree care and doing a pretty darn good job, at least they're pruning to AS 4373.

You wonder why all the bodgey wankers from Sydney and NZ are here, hack away and collect ya pay.


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## rebelman (Jul 8, 2006)

Part of the problem is reducing decades of study, research, and hard won gains to establish standards for the residential tree service industry down to pcbs.


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## treeseer (Jul 8, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Part of the problem is reducing decades of study, research, and hard won gains to establish standards for the residential tree service industry down to pcbs.



Aren't pcb's carcinogenic?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 9, 2006)

I don't think he meant polychlorinated biphenyls.


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## treesurfer78 (Jul 10, 2006)

Here in the UK I have found that it's quite the opposite. Maybe it's because the UK doesn't have a large tree caring population so they don't see many tree surgeons as they would over in the US. Whenever I've told somebody I'm a tree surgeon they become intrigued and ask more about it - what I do, how I do it, how I got into it etc. 

And the girls love it too!! :biggrinbounce2:


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## treeseer (Jul 10, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> I don't think he meant polychlorinated biphenyls.


Yeah, even though the "c" is a long way from the "u" on the keyboard, I think he meant "pubs". In that case I agree; transferring research and science and ideas into technology is a major challenge, and the major goal of ISA.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 10, 2006)

transferring research and science and ideas into technology is a major challenge, and the major goal of ISA

Treeseer,
Maybe the ISA should ask for help from the www.arboristsite.com
This is the only resource of upto date tree knowledge in the world thru a medium of a forum which the ISA a million dollar foundation? cant afford a crusty dude sitting at home dusting saw chips from his armchair is doing better than all the tree degrees the planet can gather in one place can offer.

There is a Master layman thats done more for information sharing than the largest orgnization on the planet. How does that smack you?
ISA cant keep a medium for info exchange and a master layman can? Why should I stay a C.A. and not join the Master Laymans Certification.
You all know which master and buzz laymen im talking about.

ISA cant share info thru a forum... WHY?


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## treeseer (Jul 10, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> ISA cant share info thru a forum... WHY?



Why Bother? There at least four I check into--do we need five?

There are lots of media for info exchange--books, mags, etc.

For anyone who wants to hear more rant, check the archives on this topic. I'm gone.


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## rebelman (Jul 11, 2006)

Open forums get bogged down, obviously. I mean you got passionate and educated professionals on the one hand, who mean well, raising the bar, then you got opinionated, aggressive skeptics who try to discredit or confuse. Some say ANSI standard is the saviour of this industry, others say it is politically correct bull ****. Without certified arborists we would be in really bad shape. I ain't from Boston, here in the south ANSI standard is not followed. It takes more than a lexus and fleet of stump grinders to stop the disparaging remarks. Yes, Arboristsite could take the lead in promoting awareness, or just let trolls, hacks, culls and treecudders trade insults while other sites do important stuff.


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## Climb020 (Jul 12, 2006)

I have to say after just 2 years of tree work all the certifications and standards are just BS for most people. Maybe there are good tre guys that care about the trees, there co-workers, and safety. And I would amagine there are a few business owners as well. But for the most part there aren't.

I know of a few cert. Arbs from ISA that will tell yoy to spike a trim if it will save time and make him more money. The same individual is a NJ cert. tree expert. If some one wants a hack job or anything like it we will do. They want us to clear the power lines we do it even thought there is not a certifiied line clearance person that works for the company. Send a guy to climb a tree in the powerlines and justs say "As long as the power line is insulatede you will be fine."

I ******* pull my hair out everyday wondering why this is. Why have standards if they aren't taken seriously? Why have safety meetings and then when at the job site told not to follow the correct procedures? Why send a new climber up a tree with a chainsaw and no saddle or rope?

I wish none of this bothered me because it can be very fustrating through out the day. Is there a way to deal with it or change these things or just go out a hopefully find someone that is on the same wave length.


Back to the real topic.....
Right out of high school I turned down a job for Nuclear Engineering. I had great grades and could have started with a 6 figure salary. But as you can see I am doing this instead. It does bother you a little when everyone askes why you do tree work when you are too smart to be doing tree work. But it is more about doing what you like to do then doing something else that you can't stand and make more money. Some poeple just don't understand.


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## treeseer (Jul 12, 2006)

Funny, I don't hear that at all! I must be a real dumba:monkey: 

When I hear it implied, I show them there's more to it than climbing and cutting. A lot more. If they're still hung up on the notion that if one uses one's body one must have an inferior brain, I turn away. They're the onew who are disconnected, not me.


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## Koa Man (Jul 13, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Funny, I don't hear that at all!



No one has told me that either.


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## Ekka (Jul 13, 2006)

treeseer said:


> If they're still hung up on the notion that if one uses one's body one must have an inferior brain, I turn away.



Haha, that's funny.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 13, 2006)

Koa Man said:


> No one has told me that either.



i've had customers look down on me like they look down on all blue-collar workers. sometimes i'll mention the 3 homes that i own (over 1 million worth) and then all of a sudden there attitude changes instantly. 

what's crazy is ... they must have some inclining about the pay we get because they actually hire us and witness it. $1,000 for a few hours... how can they not figure out we get paid alot more than most people?


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2006)

*Dis-Disparagement*

Good one, Bermie; I was about to start tapping some palms but I think I'll hold off for now.

"after just 2 years of tree work all the certifications and standards are just BS for most people."

Here's two jobs I got last week; more examples of what utter trash standards and certs are:

1. Cities look for ca's to do their contracting, so I'm working with trees in stream restoration projects. Very fun work. Getting paid 4x what an arborist foreman in Florida makes.

2. States look for ca's to look at their trees, so I was asked to review the ANSI standards and give opinions on one. I offered to do it at an hourly rate of 6x what an arborist foreman in Florida makes. The client set me straight when s/he sent a contract offering 9x, 12x for testimony.  

Certification is such a waste; I wonder why I bothered.


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## beowulf343 (Jul 15, 2006)

How much does an arborist foreman in Florida make?


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## treeseer (Jul 15, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> How much does an arborist foreman in Florida make?


Can't say; that would give it all away. :monkey: 

We are NOT talking about the former french fry flippers in southern Florida, but a skilled and experienced foreman, on the central west coast.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 16, 2006)

Ekka said:


> The day people realise trees are an asset and require proper care things will change, but to many they're just an...
> 
> obstacle obscuring a view
> 
> ...



Too right, trees should be regarded as an asset, adding value to a property!

Ha i had a client want a Ginko 5 meters away from the house removed because it was affecting the cimmney smoke!!!


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## Ekka (Jul 16, 2006)

Ha, chimney smoke, lucky it didn't catch on fire if it was that close or was he smoking pot himself.  

I guess that a Florida tree crew foreman's pay rate is around the $35 mark.

I also guess that a consulting arborists pay rate is around $200 per hour.

Now a Certified Arborist's rate can be anywhere, Treeseer, when you say CA is that Certified Arborist or Consulting Arborist?


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2006)

Ekka said:


> when you say CA is that Certified Arborist or Consulting Arborist?


Just certified. The asca Registered Consulting Arborist tag is not well known yet in most parts of the usa, but isa Certified Arborists are sought out and required by govts and others for work that involves knowledge about trees.

Even if your town does not call for ca's now, they may when their ordinance is rewritten. Will you be in position at that time?

O and ekka on your wage guess you are WAY high, over double, unfortunately.

"i had a client want a Ginko 5 meters away from the house removed because it was affecting the cimmney smoke!"

It continually astounds me that the removal option comes first to people's minds, even when the pruning option is so very simple cheap and effective. Too many removal experts, and too few arborists making their service known.


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## Ekka (Jul 16, 2006)

But Treeseer, you are no ordinary CA and they'd know that!

When some-one watches you look over a tree, poke around some, tap on it and write a works brief then charge $80 and they say ....

"hey, $80, but it only took you 15 minutes!"

You can confidently respond, "no, it took me a lifetime".

Oh, bad pay rates for foremen in Florida, climbers make more.


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## vharrison2 (Jul 16, 2006)

treeseer said:


> Can't say; that would give it all away. :monkey:
> 
> We are NOT talking about the former french fry flippers in southern Florida, but a skilled and experienced foreman, on the central west coast.



I don't know, treeseer, I have two CA's that are paid VERY well, with lots of perks! However, we are in the southern most part of Florida.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 16, 2006)

vharrison2 said:


> I don't know, treeseer, I have two CA's that are paid VERY well, with lots of perks! However, we are in the southern most part of Florida.



yeah but living in the Keys, you are forced to pay those guys well (very high stardard of living + they'll bolt to Miami for work if not paid well).

how do you find business in the Keys anyhow?...there simply ain't that many trees compared to other places.


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## Treeinnovator (Jul 16, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> How much does an arborist foreman in Florida make?



- can't say since i never hired a CA.
- climbers will make more. they are considered more valuable.
- people generally don't care about their trees. they look at them as liabilities. i remove trees all the time because they think it will fall on their car or roof.


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## vharrison2 (Jul 16, 2006)

Treeinnovator said:


> yeah but living in the Keys, you are forced to pay those guys well (very high stardard of living + they'll bolt to Miami for work if not paid well).
> 
> how do you find business in the Keys anyhow?...there simply ain't that many trees compared to other places.



We have lots and lots of coconut palms and probably 90% of our business is trimming them. Oh, and anyone that would bolt to Miami for anything isn't well! We only go to the mainland when we HAVE to!!!


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2006)

"When some-one watches you look over a tree, poke around some, tap on it and write a works brief then charge $80 and they say ....
"hey, $80, but it only took you 15 minutes!"
You can confidently respond, "no, it took me a lifetime".

HA! That's a good line; I've used similar words but those are better.

O and btw I give people the whole hour they're paying for, unless they cut it short. About 1/3 of the assessments invlove climbing, for one reason or another. And, I do write the specifications on their time, but don't write the estimate, if one is asked for, until I'm off their clock aqnd it's on a separate paper. Ethics you know, gotta stay independent. :angel:


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## beowulf343 (Jul 16, 2006)

Just some thoughts:
If a treeman can add c.a. or b.c.m.a. to his name, he can then get customers to pay any price for tree work he is going to do, no matter how outrageous the price? Better not tell anybody-soon everyone will be a c.a.

If that is all an arborist foreman makes in florida, then I feel very sorry for them having to work in tha heat.

I hate to agree with treeinovator, but around here c.a.'s are a dime a dozen while a good climber is hard to find. The company I work for employs three c.a.'s but I make almost twice as much as they do because I climb.

Towns and villages have budgets. Why would they hire a c.a. to do a job when some other treeman can do the same job at half the cost.


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## treeseer (Jul 16, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> around here c.a.'s are a dime a dozen while a good climber is hard to find. The company I work for employs three c.a.'s but I make almost twice as much as they do because I climb.


Those 3 ca's are really missing out--why don't they learn to climb?


> Towns and villages have budgets. Why would they hire a c.a. to do a job when some other treeman can do the same job at half the cost.


because a ca has more credibility when it comes to decision making. I know that many ca's may know less about certain tasks than some non-ca's, but the cert is the only objective standard around that they can use.


> If that is all an arborist foreman makes in florida, then I feel very sorry for them having to work in tha heat.


Me too. I was stunned that they were making well under $20./hr. O and thanks for reminding me about heat--we'll be near 100 all week.  



> If a treeman can add c.a. or b.c.m.a. to his name, he can then get customers to pay any price for tree work he is going to do, no matter how outrageous the price?


Not outrageous, but a good bit higher than a non-ca. Plus, ca's can do more paid consultations and less free estimates. 


> Better not tell anybody-soon everyone will be a c.a.


That would not be a bad thing at all!


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## Climb020 (Jul 17, 2006)

Treeseer you must be in a good area or something. In my town the same company always gets hired and they are the worst tree company I have ever seen. They top and hat rack every tree. 
There are half a dozen or more tree companies in the area I work in. Hard hats and ear protection is only found at half those companies. You can forget about any of the other safety standards. That is why I made the remark I made.


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## Ekka (Jul 18, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> In my town the same company always gets hired and they are the worst tree company I have ever seen. *They top and hat rack every tree. *



WTF?!

I do take it that you are talking about public trees.

You need to get some footage of them doing this and take it to your local govt wanker and have it checked into. Also take it to the media.

It's simply not on, fancy prescribing or permitting that.


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## Jim1NZ (Jul 18, 2006)

That sounds a bit dodgy, some back handers or ethics gone astray...?


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## Climb020 (Jul 18, 2006)

I am gonna go throught town tonight and will take some pics. It is sad, oh so sad the way the trees look. Some where cut so hard that only one branch was left on about a 20" DBH maple. And this company gets the contract year after year for pruning and removals. And some how he gets away with manly illegal workers. Go figure damn small towns.


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## Climb020 (Jul 19, 2006)

Here is some of his work. Most of the city trees have already been cut down because they died. After looking at the pictures there is no wonder why.
First three are at as nursing home just off the street. The next is an oak that was topped hard. The last 2 are maples. The first was cut on the back side and is now on its way out. The last pic I wasn't gonna use because of the electric lines. I found many other trees that looked like this but didn't want to get into a debate of line clearance. Just a bit much.'
All pruning was done in the past 2 years.

http://climber020nj.myphotoalbum.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album05


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## diltree (Jul 20, 2006)

*hmmmm*

Looks like some excellent workmanship:monkey: 



www.dillontree.com


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