# Can Somebody Check me on this VT?



## Fireaxman (Feb 2, 2006)

Just want to be SURE it's right before I hang my life on it. Trying to learn from Skwerl from that "step by step photos of my VT hitch" thread.

It looks good before I load it, but it seems to open up and un-twist a little bit under load. It also slips a little if I feed it slack from the bottom of the hitch. I don't think that would happen in the tree, but - sometimes twigs and branches push and pull on the darndest things.

I've been using the Knut very successfully with the help you guys gave me. Very secure, and it is 2 inches shorter in the same 25" loop (doesn't spread out as much), but it does get pretty tight by the end of the day. I can see how the VT would be easier to work.


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## PTS (Feb 2, 2006)

I agree 4-2. I have played with this knot recently and I am trying to work it into my daily climbing. I like my top rope coming down over my 4 wraps to by under the tail coming off of the bottom of the 4 wraps. It looks like you have it on top. I think it holds it in place better. Just my opinion.


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## jmack (Feb 3, 2006)

*arbor plex*



PTS said:


> I agree 4-2. I have played with this knot recently and I am trying to work it into my daily climbing. I like my top rope coming down over my 4 wraps to by under the tail coming off of the bottom of the 4 wraps. It looks like you have it on top. I think it holds it in place better. Just my opinion.


it looks one short on the wrap at the bottom, try a micro pulley on your carabiner,where you have the accesory snap. arborplex rope?


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## Monkeywitha_saw (Feb 3, 2006)

every one has to start some were with rope but at least he has a tree climbing rope


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## Ax-man (Feb 3, 2006)

Fireaxman,

You might want to give this little variation to the VT a try. Basically it is a 4-2 with a Knut style , half hitch,marl or whatever you want to call it type finish. I never could get a 4-1 to work for me, a 4-2 was also a little ify at times, there are just so many variables involved in tuning a VT hitch cord to a certain rope. The 4-3 was always my number but I never cared for the snake look with that many braids and gave this a try, for me it works great, grabs and realeases on que with little to no tending or setting no matter what position I am in up in the tree or when I'm single line footlocking. My biner pulley set-up is also different from what is being shown in this thread which is another variable to how a hitch will perform, also this cord is tied for a 4-3 length and streched out from climbing, it would probaly work even better shortened up a tad.

The cord is Sampson's 3/8th's, which seems to be a good marriage to the Blue Steak.

What knot is that your using for a termination on the rope snap?? Nothing wrong with it, I'm just curious is all.

Larry


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## Fireaxman (Feb 4, 2006)

*Thanks for the Response -*

Yes, adding another braid firmed it up a lot, at the cost of some friction of course. It's not self-tending though at 40 feet even as a 4/1, and as a 4/2 I have to work pretty hard to take up the slack. Maybe its the (yes, jmack)arborplex. I have not tried it yet on the Blue Streak. I have 150 feet of the Arbormaster but I also have several shorter lengths of the arborplex that I use on lower climbs.

Ax-man, the termination on the rope snap is a bowline with a yosimite tie-off. It may look messy in the photo because there is an overhand stopper knot in the tail behind the bowline. I am confident in the termination. I like the yosimite tie off especially well when I am using a traditional bridge, because it brings the bridge out the top of the bowline. I don't use a double or triple fisherman's because I move the swivel locking rope snap between several different ropes and the Bowline is easy to untie. I like your suggestion on adding a half hitch, but it seems like by the time I add a half hitch I might as well just stay with the Knut. I like the Knut pretty well. Just looking for something that will "Self Tend" a little better.

Jmac, I also recieved the correct micro-pulley today, so I'll get that in the equation. I had an Fixe style pulley that did not work well with my AM'D 'biners, so I had to re-order to get one with touching beckets. Ax-man, what kind of 'biner is that you are using with the Fixe style pully? I guess that pulley must be working OK for you or you wouldn't have stayed with it. 

I think Skwerl had his VT tied on the Blue Streak. I'll put mine on the Blue Streak tomorrow and see what difference that makes. I also just recieved some Bee-line to try for the friction hitch instead of the Stay-set. I like the Stay-set pretty well, but I'll see if Bee-line makes any difference.


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## Stumper (Feb 4, 2006)

Fire, I recognized the Yosemite bowline on the snap. That is an acceptable attachment knot for a captive eye snap but a poor choice for a 'biner. Try a Buntline-it cinches down to prevent rotation and crossloading on a 'biner but is a far better knot to untie than a scaffold(proper name for misnamed double fisherman's loop).


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## Ax-man (Feb 4, 2006)

Fireaxman,

Those biners came from Sherrill, the markings on them say they are Kong CE 30kn. I don't know if that particular biner is still available without looking in their catolog, but I know they would have something similar in that style, they always do.

Those biners and that Fixie pulley have always been a good combo for me for advancing a hitch or for pulling and tending slack, it works as fast as you can pull the rope, smooth and effortless.

Larry


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 4, 2006)

i think you definitely need the 2nd bend under the VT or Knut or other type finish. The non VT Prissie cords all have the loading to the 4 turn coil buffered by preceding this with a half hitch. This keeps the power of the coil in a 'friendly' range or useable powerband i think.

The Schwab and Distel precede with this hitch formed from the top of the coil, to buffer loading to it only and give full loading to the bottom of the coil. The Knut/ TK makes a preceding buffer from the strand going to the bottom of the coil to buffer loading to it(rather than from the top); but also chokes on the strand going to the top of the coil to buffer it too. The Iciclce, buffers the loading to the bottom strand of the coil with a different kind of hitch; that also chokes on the strand going to the top of the coil, to buffer loading to it too. Sailor Gripping Hitch does similar, only makes the hitch from the top strand going to the coil.

A VT type hitch is different; it doesn't have a preceding hitch to buffer loading to the coil, and give extra securing grip too like the above hitches (so much). The VT needs the bends in the line to buffer loading to the coil, and give secondary grip too. 1 bend just isn't enough for this task; to replace the functions of the hitch; i think it takes the 2nd job to buffer the load to the coil, and give fair secondary grip to the host line.


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## Fireaxman (Feb 5, 2006)

*Micro Pulley was Key*

Replaced the dog snap with a CMI 110 micropulley for my AM'D 'biners today and everything kind of came together. Life is good. Now both the Knut and the 4/2 VT handle very easily. Still have not decided which friction hitch I like better. Although they still don't quite "Self Tend" at 40 feet on the arborplex, they both certainly outperform the old Blakes on the traditional bridge. 

The 4/1 VT did start taking care of itself at 40 feet. The CMI micropulley held it closer to the biner so that it actually felt pretty secure and did not slip like it did with the dog snap, but the advice I'm getting recomending the 4/2 makes me real cautious about the 4/1. 

I'm looking up the "Buntline" tonight.

Thanks for the help.


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## Fireaxman (Feb 5, 2006)

*Buntline vs Scaffold knot*

Stumper put me on the Buntline and I found a good video of it on Treespyder's web site. Smaller knot, takes less rope, easy to tie and untie, and I like the way the tail comes out the side instead of on top for this application (secure Knut or VT to biner). I can tie the two buntlines back to back and the tails face away from each other and the micro pulley.

Anybody know a downside to it? Why does the Scaffold (commonly called fisherman's) seem to be the preferred knot?


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## Stumper (Feb 5, 2006)

The scaffold is prefered because the tail exits parrallel to the standing line and it is very secure. I actually use the scaffold on my tress cords-because those are knots that I tie and leave tied-I just slip the noose off of the biner to tie my hitch. I prefer the Buntline for tying the end of my climbing line to a 'biner. With the line terminated on one 'biner and the tress cord (Hitch cord) secured to another I am set up to pass limbs or recrotch easily. I habitually back up the buntline with a half hitch around the standing line above it (a double overhand a la Scaffold above it uses more line but stays in place and doesn't cinch down since it gets no real loading) however the buntline is quite secure and shows no real tendency to creep.


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## skwerl (Feb 6, 2006)

Fireaxeman,
Glad you are trying new hitches and finding some success. The advanced hitches are soooo much easier than the Blake's hitch once you've got your particular hitch dialed in. 

On your 4-1 VT, the hitch still looked a bit long. An extra braid (i.e.- a 4-2 VT) probably helped use up the extra cord and shorten the slop. I probably would have shortened the tres cord by an inch or so. The arbor plex is a bit skinnier than the Blue Streak I use. 
Also, the 4-1 VT can look a little sloppy when loaded if you aren't used to seeing it. The 4 wraps are what actually grab the rope and the braid simply keeps everythnig oriented correctly.


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## Fireaxman (Feb 6, 2006)

skwerl said:


> Fireaxeman,
> ... Also, the 4-1 VT can look a little sloppy when loaded if you aren't used to seeing it. The 4 wraps are what actually grab the rope and the braid simply keeps everythnig oriented correctly.



Thanks, Skwerl. That was exactly what made me nervous. Because of the way it looked when loaded I wasn't sure I had attached it to the biner properly. It looked like it was trying to untwist on me, but of course it never actually did unravel. I was able to make it slip just a little by forcing slack into it from the bottom (something that probably would never happen in the tree), but I'm sure the tress cord being too long had something to do with that, and I also know now that the dog snap I was using held the climbing line out from the tress cord in such a way that it complicated the situation.

I'll try shortening the tress cord as you suggest. I sure do like the short, no slop nature of the 4/1, and the lower friction going up the climbing line is a pleasure.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 7, 2006)

i think that the Scaffold is more secure grip; unless round turn or cow given around the krab that breaks up the force going to turns of Scaffold. i think also the Scaffold is stronger; especially with Double Round Turn (3 turns) around Standing Part/Throat. i think we are gonna find that the Round Turn or Double Round Turn even more so firms, reinforces the part of the hitch that would break first bending around the krab like a strain relief collar on an electrical cord.

A Scaffold is (to me) the completely simple, clean powerful Anchor Hitch to self to form an eye, Like wise, a Buntline is Clove to self to form eye; but the bitters must finish squished next to the krab not on outside away from krab. If the bitters finish away from krab; it is still a Clove formation, but is just applied as turn and 2 half hitches on krab; not as secure. Being as the Clove turns are not continuous 'coil'; but force broken up; i don't think the 'firming' of the 'throat' of the standing part at the krab is the same as Scaffold; esp. 3 turn Scaffold(that is more like what we'd see in ABOK).

A Lobster Buoy is similarly a Cow to self to form eye; but the bitters should be pinched against krab, not 'free' on the outside; or is turn on krab with 2 half hitches reversed. But, in any case the similar looking/ functioning Lobster Buoy is not considered secure enough for lifeline use(unless backing up like Stumper says)! One simple last turn define it from the Buntline; easy to confuse; and even finishes better with the bitters finishing more discreetly; but not as good of a lacing for sure! 

The point about the Scaffold finishing with it's Bitters against Standing Part; pulling Bitters tighter not looser with Standing Part pull if anything; is a very good knotting point/pattern of security not to be overlooked in this or other similar lacings.

i think the braids buffer the loading to the coil; instead of a preceding choke of hitch as in all the other strategies. The coil (4 turns) is the grab; but has too much grab and can seize; so the loading to it is buffered to keep the coil in it's friendly powerband of usability/not seizing to host line; yet still functioning/grabbing enough. So the preceding braids of VT's (or a single hitching in other strategies) give this buffering, and the security of another grab to line too!! i think the braids do this by bending the host line; like it was lacing a gauntlet of similar bends on a rack. i never thought 1 braid was enough for this function; that it took 2 bends/braids to replace the preceding choke hitch buffering loading to coil in all the other hitches. i think if you can take a 7 turn French Prussik as hitch and pull it down to form this kind of VT fairly natureally by loading legs. This always seemed a little too tourqued/twisted with stiff cords, but gives you the idea of the lay of the VT. i do like the 'twists' that Skwerl has shown for setting braids.

In the Schwab and similar Distel; the preceding/buffering hitch is maid from the leg to the top of the coil only; so the bottom of coil gets direct/unbuffered pull. But the self tending class of hitches of Knut and similar TK; along with Icicle make the buffering hitch from the bottom of the coil but also pinch down on the leg to top of coil; so really buffer loading to both top and bottom of coil i think. Sailor Gripping Hitch (similar to Icicle) is too fairly self tending, but forms the buffer hitch from leg to top of coil like non-self tending (Distel/Schwab); but it also pinches down on the leg to bottom of coil, buffering loading to that leg too.

The self tending finishes can be brought fairly well to VT class, that buffer loading to both legs as well as gives a 'stiff ring' to act kinda like mechanical tender under the collapsible braids.


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## Fireaxman (Feb 7, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> ... The self tending finishes can be brought fairly well to VT class, that buffer loading to both legs as well as gives a 'stiff ring' to act kinda like mechanical tender under the collapsible braids.



Fewer wraps on top, I assume? I'm using 4 and then the closing hitch.


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## Fireaxman (Feb 9, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> ... The self tending finishes can be brought fairly well to VT class, that buffer loading to both legs as well as gives a 'stiff ring' to act kinda like mechanical tender under the collapsible braids.



True. Finally got a little work above 40 feet today and broke out the Blue Streak.

The 4/1 Vt and a Knut with 3 wraps above the hitch performed about the same for me. Both "Self Tended" very nicely above 30 feet on the Blue Streak. Both held nicely when I put weight on them going up, but in descending they both slipped 6 to 12 inches (not dramaticly, but creeping slowly down) when I took my hand off the knot if I did not keep a little tension on the tail of the climbing line. I could easily stop the creeping by putting just a little pressure on the bottom wrap with my thumb. But ...

I think I'll just stay with the 4 wrap plus a hitch Knut. It's a little more grabby, but it gives me a nice secure stop without any attention when I turn lose of it. And, the Knut is about 2" shorter than the 4/2 VT, therefor less slack. Since I'm working alone most of the time I need take the most secure options.

If I clip my 200T to the tail of the blue streak about half way to my working height the weight of the saw tends the 4 wrap Knut very nicely. Of course, it's never a problem if I have a ground man to tend it. 

Thanks again for all the help guys. I'm way ahead of where I was back in the Blakes / Hip Thrust days.


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*get rid of all that extra hardwear and try this*


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## beowulf343 (Dec 23, 2006)

*DUDE, I THINK I'VE SEEN ENOUGH PICTURES OF THAT PARTICULAR FRICTION HITCH SETUP!*

You seem inordinately proud of the fact that you were able to tie it. Is this the first time you've figured out how to tie a friction hitch and want the whole world to know?


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2006)

*no fear will get u killed or hurt*



beowulf343 said:


> *DUDE, I THINK I'VE SEEN ENOUGH PICTURES OF THAT PARTICULAR FRICTION HITCH SETUP!*
> 
> You seem inordinately proud of the fact that you were able to tie it. Is this the first time you've figured out how to tie a friction hitch and want the whole world to know?


im very proud. if u dont like stop looking:monkey:
jealousy will get u nowhere DUDE


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## Ax-man (Dec 23, 2006)

Looks like it would lock down hard on a rope, not good, unless you like all that much friction then I guess it is OK as a hitch. I'll stick with the VT.


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## beowulf343 (Dec 24, 2006)

(WLL) said:


> im very proud. if u dont like stop looking:monkey:
> jealousy will get u nowhere DUDE


All I'm saying is that here you've revived an old thread just to show off your hitch. The guy who started it hasn't even logged on since September. Granted, it is a sweet setup and I tried it myself when Bostonbull first described it in the friction hitch thread, but I'm not bringing it up on every thread. Besides, how often have you used it? A few times over the last week? Do you even know how it handles under many different variables? Come back in a few months when you've tried it under every circumstance possible and then flaunt the excellence of this hitch. (Or leave it up to Bostonbull who has used this hitch alot.) Just my .02.

Oh, and before you criticize my sig line and showcase your ignorance of the english language, maybe you need to take note of the little thing called a comma after the word no.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 24, 2006)

beowulf343 said:


> *DUDE, I THINK I'VE SEEN ENOUGH PICTURES OF THAT PARTICULAR FRICTION HITCH SETUP!*




I was thinking the same thing!!!


WLL.......why in the world are the legs of that hitch soooooooooo long???


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## Climb020 (Dec 24, 2006)

Oh you guys crack me up. I couldn't agree with you more. What a troll and a post :censored:.


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## Fireaxman (Jan 2, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> ... The guy who started it hasn't even logged on since September.



Have Not Logged In. But still here. Dont have to log in to learn. Just have to log in if you want to spout off.


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## Fireaxman (Jan 11, 2007)

*Martin Hitch*

All the attention on the Martin Hitch did convince me to try it. I spent today on it in a loblollie at about 75 feet. I like it a lot. I think I'll stay on it for a while. I copied Treeco's illustration (because it was larger than (WLL)'s, except that I used 4 wraps instead of three before the closing hitch, and I left much shorter legs. 3 wraps slipped a little on my 3/8 Stay Set on 1/2" Blue Streak. I like the security of NO slippage, even at the expense of having to tend the knot a little until I got above 50 feet. 

But Ax-man - I still had no trouble with it locking up on me, even with plenty pine sap exposure from the IPS beetle damaged tree I was working on.

Since February '06 I have been climbing on a modified 4/2 VT after the fashion of Ax-man's p2030154.jpg, except I closed the second braid with a marl rather than a half hitch. I liked the security, but it did jam up on me occasionally, especially in the loblollies. At least today, the 4 wrap Martin still gave me the security I like, and moved more easily than the 4 + 1 + marl VT. I think you've given me a new favorite. Thanks.


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## Curtis James (Feb 3, 2007)

I like the vt allot. I only just learned the knut the other day. I think after the foour wraps up you went over then under. but if you go back over adding that last 4/2 it will almost self tend just like they say about the knut.That is how I learned to ty this hitch. foour wraps up over under then back over. all you need to do is go back over one more time.


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## SRT-Tech (Feb 3, 2007)

HOLY CRAP! whay is everyone ????ting on WLL for posting a friggin picture? WHO CARES that he posted it before....the more pics put out there the more lesser experienced climbers can learn and double check their hitches against a known one....


...

SHEESH!!!!


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## osb_mail (Feb 4, 2007)

*I like the pics .*

I just don t like to open in different page . I think pictures with any response helps .I mean there not hurting anything .


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