# PPE no good in Garage!!



## Kennygee (Sep 13, 2009)

A week ago Thursday I loaned a friend from work my chainsaws and a set of PPE , chaps, Helmet, hearing protection. He was hit in the head on last Sat. when taking down a semi-dead cottonwood. He had a helper with him. He had owned his own Lawn service at one time for 6-7 years. He was NOT using the safety gear, but went and got the wedges that were in the bag with them. I am not sure if they have disconnected the life support yet, as of when I left work today at 7. PEOPLE WAKE_UP it does no good to have PPE if we don't use it or when we help a friend, neighbor , BIL etc by lending a saw or other equipment and not giving them all the equipment to do the job safely!! I feel bad that it happened and kind of mad that he didn't't use it.. Our friends and family really need and appreciate us being there for them, don't let them and yourself down by not using or buying PPE. Thanks to all of You for Your concern and I will let his family he has friends he doesn't't know,, Thanks Kenny


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## Dadatwins (Sep 14, 2009)

Tough stuff, sorry for your the loss of your friend. Prayers to you and the family.


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## rmihalek (Sep 28, 2009)

*you get both*

Sorry for the loss of your friend.

Whenever I get a request for borrowing a chainsaw, I say "sure, but you're getting me too." I worry too much not only about how badly my saw will get treated, but by the potential for my friend, BIL, FIL, etc. to get maimed/killed.

At least, if I show up at their house with the saw, I can suss out the situation to see if they need to call a pro or if we could handle it ourselves.


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## straight6jeff (Sep 29, 2009)

*excuses I've heard from friends, relatives, coworkers.*

"It's only an electric chainsaw...."
"the blade is not that sharp....."
"it's only a small tree..."
"the Tree is already leaning..."
"the chaps are hot..."
"The helmet is heavy...."
"you are way to cautious...live a little...."
"I'll move the cigarette to the other side of my mouth while I refuel"
"I am stronger than a kickback..."
'i'm a ringsteak, i never wear that junk"
"that stuff is expensive"
"the electric lines are not that close..."
"I have a Wild Thing, your saw can't be that different..."

I don't lend out my equipment anymore. Like Bob said, i'll go with the equipment to assess the situation. More times than not, it will end up with me saying...."let's go get a beer and figure out when you can get a Pro in here".


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## Kennygee (Oct 16, 2009)

If Billy had never used a saw I for sure would have been there. The fact that he had owned his own Landscaping business for years and told me about all the trees he had dropped and never had a problem lessened my concerns. He also had another person with him that had some experience as well. I know I will never loan any equipment again but I will help a friend, neighbor, BIL, as long as we ALL have on proper PPE. I had some one call me about an Echo 302 I have for sale ,an old one with no chain brake. I informed him of this and asked him what if any experience he had. He replied "None: The saw is still in my garage. I told him about kickback, safety chaps , and PPE in general. I guess I will have that one for ever!! Thanks for all the concern and continue to spread the word!!


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## ageniusforhire (Oct 25, 2009)

*smoking while fueling up*

wait a minuit, smoking while fueling a saw is NOT dangerous,unless your lighting it near the gas. Watch mythbusters,or try it yourself. A cigarette cannot ignite gasoline,fumes or liquid. Only in hollywood.Of course, the cherry could fall off and ignite some dry grass under your saw....then youd get a small fire, but a cig lighting gas, not possible. put some gas in a beancan, you can use it for an ashtray all day.Try it before you start arguing.


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## matt9923 (Oct 25, 2009)

ageniusforhire said:


> wait a minuit, smoking while fueling a saw is NOT dangerous,unless your lighting it near the gas. Watch mythbusters,or try it yourself. A cigarette cannot ignite gasoline,fumes or liquid. Only in hollywood.Of course, the cherry could fall off and ignite some dry grass under your saw....then youd get a small fire, but a cig lighting gas, not possible. put some gas in a beancan, you can use it for an ashtray all day.Try it before you start arguing.



Most people spill gas everywhere when refueling. The cherry drops near the gas around the tank and it will light. Its not going to cause a nuclear explosion but it could have a fire.


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## buzz sawyer (Oct 26, 2009)

ageniusforhire said:


> wait a minuit, smoking while fueling a saw is NOT dangerous,unless your lighting it near the gas. Watch mythbusters,or try it yourself. A cigarette cannot ignite gasoline,fumes or liquid. Only in hollywood.Of course, the cherry could fall off and ignite some dry grass under your saw....then youd get a small fire, but a cig lighting gas, not possible. put some gas in a beancan, you can use it for an ashtray all day.Try it before you start arguing.



Kennygee, my prayers go out to you and your friend. This site has convinced me to always wear PPE. My next paragraph isn't meant to hijack your thread but has to be said.

ageniusforhire - You won't get "hired" for "genius thinking" like that. Yeah, there must be oxygen for the fuel to burn and you can drop a cigarette into a pan of gas and it may not start burning, but if the fumes have had enough time to spread, it WILL. My family business was burned down by a gasoline fire started by a cigarette.


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## Plasmech (Oct 26, 2009)

Sorry for your loss, that is horrible 

Would you mind sharing exactly what happened, in hopes that we can learn from the mistake? 




Kennygee said:


> A week ago Thursday I loaned a friend from work my chainsaws and a set of PPE , chaps, Helmet, hearing protection. He was hit in the head on last Sat. when taking down a semi-dead cottonwood. He had a helper with him. He had owned his own Lawn service at one time for 6-7 years. He was NOT using the safety gear, but went and got the wedges that were in the bag with them. I am not sure if they have disconnected the life support yet, as of when I left work today at 7. PEOPLE WAKE_UP it does no good to have PPE if we don't use it or when we help a friend, neighbor , BIL etc by lending a saw or other equipment and not giving them all the equipment to do the job safely!! I feel bad that it happened and kind of mad that he didn't't use it.. Our friends and family really need and appreciate us being there for them, don't let them and yourself down by not using or buying PPE. Thanks to all of You for Your concern and I will let his family he has friends he doesn't't know,, Thanks Kenny


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## ageniusforhire (Oct 26, 2009)

*gas fire*

I would also like to know also the exact circumstances.And i am sorry for the loss your family went through. There had to be another factor involved besides a cig and gasoline. I knew someone would argue without trying i first. MAY is not a word that exists for a cigarette lighting gasoline. Vapors, liquid or in a can, it can not happen. A gas soaked rag or paper can ignite, but it takes that additional factor.If i am not mistaken, the boat that blew up galveston bay years ago was started by a cigarette. But you cannot light gas with a cig, or the vapors. Its not "genius thinking". Its knowledge from experience. The same "genius thinking" has kept me from being injured for over 20 years of climbing trees. And from dropping saws and cutting ropes. Mythbusters even tried and could not get a fire from gas and a cigarette.Argue your 'knowledge"with them, and see if they will revisit this hollywood myth.


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## ageniusforhire (Oct 26, 2009)

*gas fire*

"You won't get hired"? What made you think i was for hire? This isnt the help wanted forum. I have my own tree service and a few more that use me when i am not busy with my jobs. And believe me, my climbings safe,I am ex 101st airborne, I usually manage to scare the hell out of other tree co owners, but in a totally safe way.Needless to say, i replace my splittail often.Darn things keep burning through.


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## BlackenedTimber (Oct 26, 2009)

not trying to be "that guy" but your name IS "a genius for HIRE"...


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## straight6jeff (Oct 27, 2009)

*From Chemical Spill.org*

Fumes/vapors do burn in the presence of air and do not require paper or rags. Gasoline has a narrow range of LEL and UEL. The following is from the site chemical spill.org. 

Do you think that Mythbusters tests every possible permutation of weather, humidity, barometric pressure, wind, etc. that can be found in my backyard, your backyard, or anyone elses?

Everything is impossible until the first time it happens.

Once the gasoline vapor conc. is between teh LEL and UEL, it will ignite with an ignition source.



_When a substance is in the air in a concentration above its LEL and below the UEL, extreme danger of sudden explosion or flash-over is present. Instruments such as Photo-ionization detectors have been developed that will read LEL levels. Generally, any level above 25% of the LEL in the open air is considered a hazardous situation. In a confined space, that safe level drops to 10% of the LEL. Some instruments have alarms that will sound when the concentration of gases or vapors meet the 10-25% of the LEL. Example: Gasoline has an LEL of 1.4%, a UEL of 7.6% and a flash point of -45 degrees F. In a confined area, above -45 degrees F, gasoline fumes that exceeded .14% of the atmosphere would be considered a hazardous situation and all personnel should be immediately removed. If the gasoline fumes are between 1.4% (14,000 ppm) and 7.6% (76,000 ppm) then any sort of ignition source, i.e. spark of some kind, could cause the atmosphere to ignite or explode. 

Another thing to remember regards the UEL. As a plume of a flammable chemical moves along the ground, or even up into the air, it will dissipate and eventually reach a level that will allow it to burn or explode. UELs are not to be treated as if there is no danger. Instead, they mean there is some amount of time before there is a severe fire and explosion danger. _


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## ageniusforhire (Oct 27, 2009)

*job*

Ok,i guess my handle here is "a genius for hire",but i am not for hire to another tree co. I am looking for somthing a little more technical to retire to eventually.Preferably in the alternate power field/green energy.Lots of people dont believe you can run a diesel on waste cooking oil,either,till they smell it running.There is one tree company that has converted their gas chipper to run on woodchips for fuel. Look up woodgas, if you dont know what i am talking about, its ww11 tech, just comming back in use now. The only problem is those "genius" positions are never hiring. So i guess i will die of old age with my spurs on,lol.Unless spurs arent allowed on that job.If people get riled up because i smoke when i fill a saw,they'd really flip if they saw my wood burning 3 barrel stove install in the basement, with the smokestack going out the window. When i light it, i use a steel bowl full of woodchips and gasoline as a hotpot to get things burning, and light that with a blowtorch.I have used the old army water and hooch heaters that were fueled by a 5 gal jerry can of gasoline,with a drip line running to them.Those darn things take away your eyebrows if you just open them at the wrong time.


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## outofmytree (Oct 27, 2009)

> MAY is not a word that exists for a cigarette lighting gasoline. Vapors, liquid or in a can, it can not happen.



I do not care what others BELIEVE about this subject but I am not using my fuel cans for ashtrays any time soon. The Titanic wasnt supposed to sink either but it did. Don't mix heat and fuel and dont sail into an iceberg. Seems like common sense to me.

On a side note. It is often called a myth but static electricity and fuel vapour are a deadly combination. http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/09/13/2684446.htm

Don't let the OP be a waste of time. Keep hazards as far away as possible. Don't be the one to discover that some myths are cold hard fact.


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## ageniusforhire (Oct 28, 2009)

*ignition source*

I totally agree on the fact that gas vapors will ignite with an IGNITION SOURCE. But,a cigarette is NOT an ignition source. A spark is an ignition source. It is much hotter than a lit cigarette, therefore will ignite the fumes. Everyone has seen the old spark ignitors for welding and propane soldering. we all know propane and mapp gas are flamable,as well as acetaline straight from the bottle. Well, try lighting one of those with a cigarette, and see what happens. NOTHING, except stinking up the place.Atmospheric conditions do not exist on this planet that will cause gasoline,propane,mapp gas or most other common vapors to ignite in the mere pressence of a lit cigarette.The only way is to add enough O2 to the mix to cause the glowing tobacco and wrapper to ignite. then you will light the gas. It is not hot enough to ignite the vapor on its own. The reason they tell everyone to leave the building from a leak is the murphy/darwin factor. Some idiot will turn off or on a light, light a cig,or create a static spark that ignites the fumes. In all fairness to idiots,anyone could create a static spark leaving a building in a hurry.Before someone chimes in and corrects me, i know you can keep from creating a static spark, but i wouldnt test that theory in an explosive environment.


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## Philbert (Oct 28, 2009)

Kennygee,

Sorry about your Friend. Thank you for the painful reminder.



ageniusforhire said:


> A cigarette cannot ignite gasoline,fumes or liquid.



ageniusforhire - You are simply wrong. 

I work as a safety professional, and know of several factories which were destroyed by cigarettes, sparks, static electricity, etc., igniting gasoline and other flammable vapors. Doesn't have to happen every time. Just has to happen once.

Philbert


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## RCR 3 EVER (Oct 29, 2009)

Many years ago a college campus had gas lights on all the islands in all the parking lots. One time when I was a student many years ago I noticed a very strong odor of gas in a parking lot under construction where several lights were missing or bent over. I told security and a particularly bright guy came by to check out the situation and drove right by the leaking lines,some were bubbling in the puddles of water others were just leaking from lines. He then threw out his cigarette and a small flame spread along the ground.

I asked him why he did it after he called the gas co and fire dept and he said he wondered if it would burn or not. I guess there was enough leakage of vapors to cause it to burn since gas guy who came out said one damaged pole would not have ignited.

There sure are some stupid people testing some theories they have questions about.


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## Plasmech (Oct 29, 2009)

I may be reading something wrong here but, I believe the OP said that the victim was hit in the head, not burned with gasoline.


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## Philbert (Oct 29, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I may be reading something wrong here but, I believe the OP said that the victim was hit in the head, not burned with gasoline.



You are right, Plasmech, that this thread got hijacked (like a lot of other AS posts - they tend to wander). 

But out of respect for Kennygee's friend, and in his memory, many of us feel a responsibility to not let careless dismissals of basic safety practices stand unchallenged.

We can't stop people, and can't change some, but we can post a rational rebuttal for those whose minds are open to consider as they read these pages.

Philbert


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## Art Vandelay (Nov 1, 2009)

ageniusforhire said:


> wait a minuit, smoking while fueling a saw is NOT dangerous,unless your lighting it near the gas. Watch mythbusters,or try it yourself. A cigarette cannot ignite gasoline,fumes or liquid. Only in hollywood.Of course, the cherry could fall off and ignite some dry grass under your saw....then youd get a small fire, but a cig lighting gas, not possible. put some gas in a beancan, you can use it for an ashtray all day.Try it before you start arguing.



You should try explaining that to my friend who was pumping gas and some jerk smoker threw his butt out the window and caused over half of his body to burn. He's scarred for life head to toe.


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## TheLumberJack (Nov 2, 2009)

philbert said:


> kennygee,
> 
> sorry about your friend. Thank you for the painful reminder.




+1


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## EdenT (Nov 14, 2009)

I think I can clarify the gas explosion theories. A cigarette that is burning by itself does not have the required heat to cause vapours and gases to explode in most cases however this is dependant upon the volatility of the chemical in question.

A lit cigarette once drawn upon, or thrown through the air, or dropped, increases its temparature manyfold as it collides with more oxygen molecules and therefore burns hotter (like the oxy-acetaleyne when you turn on the oxy) and can ignite volatile chemicals.

DON'T SMOKE NEAR ANY CHEMICALS. I lost a relative due to burns after three months of the most horrific survival and frankly my life would be better if it never happened to anyone again.....especially a tree guy or gal.


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## rarefish383 (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry for your loss. I didn't read all of the posts here, I just skipped to the end. As others said, when a friend or relative asks to borrow equipment I just say I'll do it. When they whine about taking my time, I say I'd rather you take my time than have me take your life. If you don't like my terms hire someone else. I know how banged up I've gotten with almost 40 years experience and 4th generation in the bus. I know my electrian brother in law is an accident in motion away from his wires. Friends and family take care of each other. I wouldn't lend anything to someone else anyways, Joe.


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