# A Tale of Three Saws



## blsnelling

The purpose of this thread is to document the comparison of a 390XP, MS660, and 7901. The 7901 is already modded and will be compared to the other two in stock configuration. I will then mod both the 390XP and MS660, and compare them to the 7901 again.

These saws all belong to Matt, aka MCW. This testing is being done at his request and to satisfy your curiousity as well A 395XP was going to be thrown in the mix, but it was determined that for Matt's purposes, the 390 would be all he might ever need, and is significantly lighter.

The 390XP just came this afternoon. I'll be picking up the MS660 this evening.


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## nmurph

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## gtsawyer

Wow. Big thanks to Brad and Matt for sharing time and money on this comparison.

A big pre-thank you!


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## Wildman1024

Holy brand new saw batman opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## mdavlee

Nice new saw. Can't wait to see how this turns out.


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## FATGUY

Now this one I'm looking forward to. How extreme will the porting be on these two? Will the 660 get the tractor saw treatment?


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## blsnelling

The MS660 has arrived.


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## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> Now this one I'm looking forward to. How extreme will the porting be on these two? Will the 660 get the tractor saw treatment?



The 390 and 660 will be getting my typical woods port. They will be initially tested with 7-pin rims and 24" bars with the same chain. There will be no muffler mods or anything the first time around.


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## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> The MS660 has arrived.


Art, pure mechanical art....


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## flushcut

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## Wildman1024

That's a beautiful sight right there. Reminds me of this video!

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLnWf1sQkjY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VLnWf1sQkjY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## woodgrenade

Very cool idea.


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## Tiger Rag

opcorn:
:drool:
What's in that 3rd blue box?


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## blsnelling

Tiger Rag said:


> opcorn:
> :drool:
> What's in that 3rd blue box?



 A 346XP for someone else.


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## Jacob J.

blsnelling said:


> A 346XP for someone else.



I was hoping it was a NOS 242XP...


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## TRI955

The 390xp....does it have a Jred brother?? 2188??


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## huskystihl

I'm sure this will be eventfull but if a new saw comes out of my account i'm the one running it first.


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## blsnelling

huskystihl said:


> I'm sure this will be eventfull but if a new saw comes out of my account i'm the one running it first.



Not really an option when the owner is in AU, but I know what you're saying.


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## FamilyTradition

FATGUY said:


> Art, pure mechanical art....



What he said! Man, that thing is so cherry! :jawdrop:


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## mdavlee

I figured there would be stock videos already posted by now. opcorn:


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## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> I figured there would be stock videos already posted by now. opcorn:



Sorry, not tonight. I had to work late, plus have a 346 to port and ship out ASAP.


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## mdavlee

I'm just impatient and bored. The only good internet I have is at work and only 30 minutes to use it. I've got a 394 on the way soon to me to mess with after I get the stuff in the new house.


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## TommySaw

blsnelling said:


> The purpose of this thread is to document the comparison of a 390XP, MS660, and 7901. The 7901 is already modded and will be compared to the other two in stock configuration. I will then mod both the 390XP and MS660, and compare them to the 7901 again.
> 
> These saws all belong to Matt, aka MCW. This testing is being done at his request and to satisfy your curiousity as well A 395XP was going to be thrown in the mix, but it was determined that for Matt's purposes, the 390 would be all he might ever need, and is significantly lighter.
> 
> The 390XP just came this afternoon. I'll be picking up the MS660 this evening.



Hey by this time next week I'll have one of those:greenchainsaw:

this should be a really great thread


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## blsnelling

All three saws are full of fuel and oil.


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## FATGUY

how do they "feel" weight wise ?


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## Thorcw

Go makita


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## Mastermind

Just checking in, great thread BTW.


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## Andyshine77

Ain't no way them other saws have a chance at touching my Kita.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Anthony_Va.

This is worse than waiting on the Superbowl when you're team is playing. 

I am dyin here, suspense is killin me. 

SHould be the very best in entertainment!


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## nmurph

for those that care, the fluid capacities are as follows:
7900- 25oz fuel 13.5 oz oil
390- 28oz fuel 16 oz oil
660- 28oz fuel 12.2 oz oil


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## caotropheus

Brad, something is terrible wrong with your scale ! 

You forgot to switch to metric system ! :hmm3grin2orange: :monkey: :monkey:


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## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Sorry, not tonight. I had to work late, plus have a 346 to port and ship out ASAP.



Like you've never cut wood in the dark with a spotlight before.


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## FATGUY

Hi Andre!


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## Andyshine77

Hi Nik!


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## the westspartan

Dang it Brad! I had my 3 saw plan all worked out with my 2095 and now you had to go and start this!


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## bowtechmadman

This should definately be interesting!


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## rms61moparman

Are you going to run them in various sized wood or just one of the big'uns???


Mike


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## luvsaws

opcorn:opcorn:


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## parrisw

181lbs on the 660 eh? Fat bottom girl or what?


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## blsnelling

nmurph said:


> for those that care, the fluid capacities are as follows:
> 7900- 25oz fuel 13.5 oz oil
> 390- 28oz fuel 16 oz oil
> 660- 28oz fuel 12.2 oz oil



So the 390 and 660 PHO are really only 1 oz apart then.


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## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> 181lbs on the 660 eh? Fat bottom girl or what?



18# 11.6oz


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## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> Are you going to run them in various sized wood or just one of the big'uns???
> 
> 
> Mike



For stock testing, I only intend to test with 24" bars. Once modded, I'll probably put 32" bars on them and stick them in some of that Oak. If I could quit my day job, I'd do all the testing you want


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## luvsaws

nmurph said:


> for those that care, the fluid capacities are as follows:
> 7900- 25oz fuel 13.5 oz oil
> 390- 28oz fuel 16 oz oil
> 660- 28oz fuel 12.2 oz oil



 Wonder why the 660 has a smaller oil capacity?


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## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> 18# 11.6oz



Figured so, was trying to be funny, guess it didn't work eh!

As usual though Brad, I look forward to these builds, I wish I had more time to get all these saws done that I have here. Don't know where you find the time.


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## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> For stock testing, I only intend to test with 24" bars. Once modded, I'll probably put 32" bars on them and stick them in some of that Oak. If I could quit my day job, I'd do all the testing you want



I think that may be under utilizing those saws.


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## the westspartan

luvsaws said:


> Wonder why the 660 has a smaller oil capacity?



I always assumed the oil capacity had something to do with fuel usage. I know the 441 has a greater oil capacity than a 440 or 460 as you go longer between refuel/refill of the bar oil. This is just a guess, as I have know idea how the 660 and 390 compare in terms of fuel usage.


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## parrisw

the westspartan said:


> I always assumed the oil capacity had something to do with fuel usage. I know the 441 has a greater oil capacity than a 440 or 460 as you go longer between refuel/refill of the bar oil. This is just a guess, as I have know idea how the 660 and 390 compare in terms of fuel usage.



From what I under stand, they design it so the gas runs out first. But you shouldn't let the gas run out! LOL


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## the westspartan

FATGUY said:


> I think that may be under utilizing those saws.



+1... 70cc and 90cc are pretty close in speed until you pull out the long bars or should I say bury the long bars.


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## the westspartan

parrisw said:


> From what I under stand, they design it so the gas runs out first. But you shouldn't let the gas run out! LOL



exactly!


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## parrisw

the westspartan said:


> +1... 70cc and 90cc are pretty close in speed until you pull out the long bars or should I say bury the long bars.



LOL, from what I hear, you've never buried the "long bar".


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## luvsaws

the westspartan said:


> I always assumed the oil capacity had something to do with fuel usage. I know the 441 has a greater oil capacity than a 440 or 460 as you go longer between refuel/refill of the bar oil. This is just a guess, as I have know idea how the 660 and 390 compare in terms of fuel usage.



So the 390 is better on fuel than the 660.
Another test to throw in the mix for ya Brad:hmm3grin2orange:


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## the westspartan

luvsaws said:


> So the 390 is better on fuel than the 660.
> Another test to throw in the mix for ya Brad:hmm3grin2orange:



This is just a speculation. I have no real world evidence of this. The only time I have run these models next to each other is at a GTG. They were both heavily modded and I didn't run a full tank through either of them.


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## the westspartan

parrisw said:


> LOL, from what I hear, you've never buried the "long bar".



You may be right, but I sure have tried! Is it my fault I have too much bar for the job! LOL


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## brncreeper

FATGUY said:


> I think that may be under utilizing those saws.



Depends on how there ported. If the intent was for small bars and speed the 390 will win every time. If the intent was for long bars and torque numbers the 660 is gonna hold its own, although he should have ordered the R model with the high output oil pump for that.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## parrisw

the westspartan said:


> You may be right, but I sure have tried! Is it my fault I have too much bar for the job! LOL



Hmm, too long for the job! That's not what Brad said about your "Long Bar" our West Coast long bar, and your long bar is two totally different things. LOL! 28" is short around here LOL


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## Andyshine77

The newer stihl saws don't pump out enough oil for my taste, I think this has more to do with eco friendly oil pumps than anything else.


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## the westspartan

parrisw said:


> Hmm, too long for the job! That's not what Brad said about your "Long Bar" our West Coast long bar, and your long bar is two totally different things. LOL! 28" is short around here LOL



LOL! I usually just run the 25" on the 441 but I have a 32" for those special occasions! I have buried it in oak, maple and pine a few times. I run a 30" on the J-red. Most of the time these bars are overkill in the east. What we give up in length we make up for in hardness of wood.LOL


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## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> The newer stihl saws don't pump out enough oil for my taste.



OH GEEZE the endless fun I could have with that one.



the westspartan said:


> LOL! I usually just run the 25" on the 441 but I have a 32" for those special occasions! I have buried it in oak, maple and pine a few times. I run a 30" on the J-red. Most of the time these bars are overkill in the east. What we give up in length we make up for in hardness of wood.LOL



Hmmm, I usually burry my 36" 395, but alas most of the time soft wood. Oh well, whatever make you happy I guess. Just like trying to stuff a marshmallow in a piggy bank!!


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## mdavlee

I never weighed the 660 I had. It felt a lot heavier than the 390 but that shows that they are real close.


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## Wildman1024

parrisw said:


> Hmm, too long for the job! That's not what Brad said about your "Long Bar" our West Coast long bar, and your long bar is two totally different things. LOL! 28" is short around here LOL



I must have a European long bar cause I can only bring 6" to the table


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## 2000ssm6

FATGUY said:


> I think that may be under utilizing those saws.



A 32" on both stock would be rather "boring". Ported is when they will pull that size bar much better. I'd use a 8 pin on both, with either sized bar, stock and ported. 24" is better for a ported 70cc saw. The weight and handling of a 24"-25" matches the saw perfect. I'm going to predict the 660 drinks the most fuel, mine is a thirsty little :taped:.

I know my 660 and JTs 395 is more at home with a 36"-42" bar but how many of us run into 42" wood?


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## porsche965

What a great test! Just in time to compare later when the new 660 (661?) comes out from Stihl. I've heard rumors of this from my Dealer and others.
And I'm sure Mr. Snelling will be right on top of any new 90cc saw available to give us the pros and cons, which I so much appreciate.
Thanks Brad.


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## MCW

gtsawyer said:


> Wow. Big thanks to Brad and Matt for sharing time and money on this comparison.
> 
> A big pre-thank you!




No problemo 

Anyway guys, I was always going to get my mitts on a 660 one day and am already in love with the 7900/7901's plus the 390XPG I have.

I've mentioned some of this in another thread but the plan is as follows...

I already have 2 modded 7900's. My older one has more power than my newer one (different porting from Brad) and I bought Brad's old 390XPG which is a bit of a weapon.
The tree job that I have been on for about 9 months now (I do this after hours - I actually also have a REAL job, sadly...) is ongoing and to be honest has paid for all of my CAD plus some. I'm in a lucky situation as in my area few people do what I do so you could say I have a near endless supply of trees  Although most of the guys here are in the US if anybody ever wants to come out and drop a heap of trees with me they are always welcome. This forum is basically the only place I can associate with like minded chainsaw people. Nobody I know close by is even slightly interested in a "wood's port" or even knows what one is 
At present I have dropped just on 8,500 trees on this one property (Casuarinas - an Australian native hardwood) ranging from around 12" to probably 44-48" at their widest point. I have about another 4,000-8,000 to go depending on what this particular corporate farm decide to do on their other properties.
The 7900's have been more than up to the task on this job and are an excellent saw. I'll sing their praises anyday and do very often on this forum as many of you would know.
A while back I asked Brad if he had any 2nd hand pro saws he'd be willing to sell. At the time my brother had been helping me out on a lot of domestic tree jobs I was doing and although I always split the proceeds with him 50/50 I planned on getting him a pro saw as I'd paid to put him through the same tree courses I'd done. My grand plan was, and still is to some extent, to up the ante and really get the tree felling paying for itself from a business sense - I just struggle to find the time as my daily job as a Senior Horticultural Agronomist means I am fielding questions from farmers/growers up to 14 hours a day, 7 days a week in busy periods. If I could earn the same money on a consistent basis felling trees I'd dump Agronomy in a flash...

Anyway, Brad mentioned he had a modded 390XPG and it was at a good price. The saw arrived and I just happened to like it a bit too much to give it to my brother  After using it more and more on trees up to about 40" with bars up to 32" I have realised that the 390's are an excellent, well balanced saw, just like the 7900's except more powerful (compared to the 7900's I have now anyway  ). The more extensively modded 7901 in this thread is quite obviously significantly more powerful than my other two 7900's.
So here we are with 3 of my favourite saws (even though I have very little time on a 660 - just enough to know I liked it but that was just dropping it into logs a few years ago). Tree felling is far far different and is where you really work out fast whether you like a saw's balance or not.
I would have got these saws modded by Brad anyway so I told him to go nuts with videos and photos and tests etc etc and post away. He would have been testing them after mods anyway so why not share it around.
I'm going to enjoy this thread more than most 

By the way, I'll do a follow up with this thread when these saws get to Australia in a tree felling situation.
The plan is that I will sell one of my 7900's (keeping the 7901) and sell one of the 3 larger saws (390XP, 390XPG, MS660).
My grand pro saw plan is 2 x 200T's or 338XPT's (not a priority at the moment), my 5100-S, 2 x 7900/7901's, 2 x 90cc class saws, and of course my boat anchor Husky 3120. When running a business that incorporates tree felling it always pays to have two saws in each class if possible even though the 7900's and 390's sort of cross paths! The reason I'd stick with one 50cc saw (the 5100-S) is that my 7900's will do everything they can plus more. Also my other half loves that little saw! I'm yet to bring her back into line but she has said a few times it's "her" saw.
I have a feeling the 660 will be getting sold but hey, you never know. I might just be that impressed I sell the XPG. Time will tell.

Sorry for the long post but just thought I'd let you guys know that I'm not trying to win any "I've got the most modded saws" competitions. These saws are for a legit business and are tax deductible which allows me to spend a bit more on my chainsaw "hobby" than some other people.

P.S. Also many thanks to Brad who has had 1000's of my hard earned dollars transferred into his account and hasn't skipped town to Mexico...yet... 
As always he has been excellent to deal with and I sometimes wonder how he fits in all in. I've really been loading him up lately 

Anyway, back to the real purpose of this thread. Those saws look awesome. MS660 in particular...


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## MCW

TRI955 said:


> The 390xp....does it have a Jred brother?? 2188??



Al (AUSSIE1) mentioned that there is no HD filter kit available for the 2188 which means it won't keep up with the dust in some of the conditons I cut in. Trust me, the 2188 was right up on my list until I found that out 


nmurph said:


> for those that care, the fluid capacities are as follows:
> 7900- 25oz fuel 13.5 oz oil
> 390- 28oz fuel 16 oz oil
> 660- 28oz fuel 12.2 oz oil



Good info mate and something I'd forgotten to consider but is very important 



caotropheus said:


> Brad, something is terrible wrong with your scale !
> 
> You forgot to switch to metric system !



I'm the same mate. Pounds and ounces don't mean much to me. I know the conversions but I still can't picture it in my hands 



FATGUY said:


> I think that may be under utilizing those saws.



Don't worry Nik, I'll sort the long bar tests out when they get here 



parrisw said:


> like trying to stuff a marshmallow in a piggy bank!!



Or the other one is like throwing a sausage down a hallway 



2000ssm6 said:


> I know my 660 and JTs 395 is more at home with a 36"-42" bar but how many of us run into 42" wood?



I run into 42" wood a bit but to be honest I only run a 24-32" bar to take it on.


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## little possum

Dropping in to say Hi, and subscribe, dont mind me


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## smokinj

blsnelling said:


> For stock testing, I only intend to test with 24" bars. Once modded, I'll probably put 32" bars on them and stick them in some of that Oak. If I could quit my day job, I'd do all the testing you want



I think you would make it!


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## cat-face timber

opcorn:opcorn:


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## MCW

You're probably going to do this anyway Brad but if possible take a few photos of the castings of both saws. Will be interesting to see if there is any difference in internal quality.


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## blsnelling

MCW said:


> You're probably going to do this anyway Brad but if possible take a few photos of the castings of both saws. Will be intreresting to see if there is any difference in internal quality.



Cylinder or crankcase? I assume you mean the cylinders.


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## newlotstolearn

*Everyday*



2000ssm6 said:


> A 32" on both stock would be rather "boring". Ported is when they will pull that size bar much better. I'd use a 8 pin on both, with either sized bar, stock and ported. 24" is better for a ported 70cc saw. The weight and handling of a 24"-25" matches the saw perfect. I'm going to predict the 660 drinks the most fuel, mine is a thirsty little :taped:.
> 
> I know my 660 and JTs 395 is more at home with a 36"-42" bar but how many of us run into 42" wood?



this was the first real tree job I did. Almost all of it was done with a Husky 365 24" and 28" bars.

been running into trees like this and worse ever since.


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## blsnelling

The stock comparison video is processing now. All three saws pulled the same new Stihl RSC chain on a 24" bar with 7-pin rims. I made two cuts with each, one with normal cutting load, and one with max load. What do you think the outcome was?


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## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> The stock comparison video is processing now. All three saws pulled the same new Stihl RSC chain on a 24" bar with 7-pin rims. I made two cuts with each, one with normal cutting load, and one with max load. What do you think the outcome was?





7901


Mike


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## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> 7901
> 
> 
> Mike



Go on. There are two more, you Dolmar snob:greenchainsaw:


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## mdavlee

7901
660
390 

That would be my guess.


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## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> 7901
> 660
> 390
> 
> That would be my guess.



Both normal and max load?


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## rms61moparman

7901
390
660

But I think the results will change exactly the opposite with 12 more inches of bar and wood.


Mike


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## mdavlee

Normal yes.

Max would be

660 
390
7901


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## rmotoman

My guess:

7901
390
660


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## luvsaws

Max
390
7901
660
normal
7901
390
660


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## flushcut

When does the movie start? For some reason I am all giddy and excited like going to the track or a Packers game in Lambo. The stress is killing me.


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## little possum

Id say the Kita is gonna pull the best, cause its ported right?

But Id rather see the 390 win it all


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## coyotencuttin

you mean its not done yet?? i just read 6 pages of hype and its not done. what a let down. like back in school standing in line to see the naked girl in the shower and after finally getting to the front finding out it was your own sister.:bang:


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## blsnelling

*Normal load*

7901 by a wide margin
390 by a few hundredths
660 almost identical to 390


*Max load*

7901
660 by a considerable amount less than the 390
390

What you can't see is that the 660 feels considerably stronger in the cut under max load than what the times suggest.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JbsYb2sjqIc&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JbsYb2sjqIc&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## flushcut

coyotencuttin said:


> you mean its not done yet?? i just read 6 pages of hype and its not done. what a let down. like back in school standing in line to see the naked girl in the shower and after finally getting to the front finding out it was your own sister.:bang:



Dude!!! Your sister... This tread is days in the making you can't rush things.


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## blsnelling

flushcut said:


> Dude!!! Your sister... This tread is days in the making you can't rush things.



Ignore it.


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## Erick

blsnelling said:


> *Normal load*
> 
> 7901 by a wide margin
> 390 by a few hundredths
> 660 almost identical to 390
> 
> 
> *Max load*
> 
> 7901
> 660 by a considerable amount less than the 390
> 390
> 
> What you can't see is that the 660 feels considerably stronger in the cut under max load than what the times suggest.



Nice work Brad, I'd be interested to see that same test run again with 8-pin rims on'em. To late or can it be done???

(yes I know to late at night now, I meant if you haven't torn them down already.... I know how your OCD works. )


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## flushcut

That was a nice video. I can't wait for the moded video. I was surprised by the showing of the Makita maybe that will be next on the shopping list.


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## coyotencuttin

can't wait for the next video. gonna keep my pie hole closed. :yourock:


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## blsnelling

flushcut said:


> I can't wait for the moded video.





coyotencuttin said:


> can't wait for the next video.



That's going to be a little while. I've got a couple other jobs to work on as well. Plus......I'm getting tired!:help:


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## little possum

Brad, what is your prediction on the fastest saw after the port work?

Guess the video is proving the 7900 may be the best buy for the $. 

LETS GO 390XP!!!


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## luvsaws

That Kita really cleans up in the cut!

Great vid


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## MS460WOODCHUCK

blsnelling said:


> That's going to be a little while. I've got a couple other jobs to work on as well. Plus......I'm getting tired!:help:



How much you paying for help.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> *Normal load*
> 
> 7901 by a wide margin
> 390 by a few hundredths
> 660 almost identical to 390
> 
> 
> *Max load*
> 
> 7901
> 660 by a considerable amount less than the 390
> 390
> 
> What you can't see is that the 660 feels considerably stronger in the cut under max load than what the times suggest.



One moment, please. If I understand the original post, these comparisons are a ported 7901 against a stock 660 and stock 390. Correct? If so, the results are about what one would expect.

I'm interested to see how they'll do against each other when all are ported. 

If my assumption that the 7901 is ported and the other saws are stock at the point of this post is incorrect, please correct me. I read the first few posts when they were mounted with great interest but am unwilling to dogpaddle through the detritus of what came after. 

Definitely eager to see the vid of them going head to head after they're all ported. Frankly, considering the balderdash typical of this type of speculative thread, I'd be VERY happy to see the final comparison vids posted IN A NEW THREAD so enquiring minds don't have to filter the shytestorm to get to the diamonds. 

Again, correct me if I'm wrong about the mods/stock, but this thread should not have been started until all the mods were done and the saw vids produced. With the final results not done, this thread is nothing more than masturbation. In other words, shut up until you got something definitive to say. 

I'm just saying.

Thanks!


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## MS460WOODCHUCK

little possum said:


> Guess the video is proving the 7900 may be the best buy for the $.




I'm looking for it to be a different outcome after the porting is done. But wait, The 2 big saws are getting a woods port and the kita has a major port correct?


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## flushcut

What you can't mod three saws by what say midnight? LOL I am surprised that you got them out as soon as you did after porting that 346


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## blsnelling

StihlyinEly said:


> One moment, please. If I understand the original post, these comparisons are a ported 7901 against a stock 660 and stock 390. Correct? If so, the results are about what one would expect.
> 
> I'm interested to see how they'll do against each other when all are ported.
> 
> If my assumption that the 7901 is ported and the other saws are stock at the point of this post is incorrect, please correct me. I read the first few posts when they were mounted with great interest but am unwilling to dogpaddle through the detritus of what came after.
> 
> Definitely eager to see the vid of them going head to head after they're all ported.
> 
> Thanks!



That was outlined in the first post:greenchainsaw: The 7901 was done before this idea was ever hatched. So now we're comparing a favorite 80cc class saw to a couple 90cc clas saws, first stock, and then ported.


----------



## blsnelling

ms460woodchuck said:


> I'm looking for it to be a different outcome after the porting is done. But wait, The 2 big saws are getting a woods port and the kita has a major port correct?



The only difference will be that the Kita has a popup and the other two will not. Porting will be similiar.


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK

blsnelling said:


> That was outlined in the first post:greenchainsaw:



You should'nt of told him so he would have to read, read and yes read.


----------



## StihlyinEly

ms460woodchuck said:


> You should'nt of told him so he would have to read, read and yes read.



I read the first bunch of posts. So my understanding of the situation is correct. What went on between the first posts and these last posts is moot. Masturbation. Circle jerk. 

Since the 7901 had already been ported, I don't care darn giggly about how it compares with the other stock saws. I care how it compares with the other saws once they've been ported. 

I hope a new thread will be started when those ports/vids are available. Until then, it's just one saw ho yakking at another saw ho. Ho needs that?


----------



## rms61moparman

little possum said:


> Guess the video is proving the 7900 may be the best buy for the $.
> 
> LETS GO 390XP!!!





Some around here have been saying this for a WHILE now.
It has even been called the "Undisputed King of Bang for the Buck"!


Mike


----------



## Anthony_Va.

Anytime someone comes with the ole "my saw is best and yours is inferior" fanboy talk, they should be directed to this thread. 

Just goes to show that either of these saws are awesome and theres really not any one saw better than the rest. Personal preference is the only factor. Stihl, Husky, Dolmar/kita....does'nt matter. Either will give you your money's worth in performance.

This thread is awesome on so many levels!!!!

I mean, I'm going to go insane waiting for the modded saw showdown! 

 Brad S. :yourock:


----------



## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> Some around here have been saying this for a WHILE now.
> It has even been called the "Undisputed King of Bang for the Buck"!
> 
> 
> Mike



Hard to argue with that!


----------



## Erick

Erick said:


> Nice work Brad, I'd be interested to see that same test run again with 8-pin rims on'em. To late or can it be done???
> 
> (yes I know to late at night now, I meant if you haven't torn them down already.... I know how your OCD works. )



8-pin??? :monkey:


----------



## blsnelling

Anthony_Va. said:


> Anytime someone comes with the ole "my saw is best and yours is inferior" fanboy talk, they should be directed to this thread.
> 
> Just goes to show that either of these saws are awesome and theres really not any one saw better than the rest. Personal preference is the only factor.



Exactly. At least in this size wood, there is basically no difference between the MS660 390XP.


----------



## blsnelling

Erick said:


> 8-pin??? :monkey:



Are you begging?:hmm3grin2orange: I do hope to get off work about noon tomorrow. The hard part is finding enough clean wood to get at least 6 cuts.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Cylinder or crankcase? I assume you mean the cylinders.



Yeah Brad. We know the Dolmar Mahle setups are pretty tidy just interested to see the others.

By the way, I'm going to head home for lunch from work just to see the video - can't access Youtube at work which is a good thing 



StihlyinEly said:


> One moment, please. If I understand the original post, these comparisons are a ported 7901 against a stock 660 and stock 390. Correct? If so, the results are about what one would expect.
> 
> I'm interested to see how they'll do against each other when all are ported.
> 
> If my assumption that the 7901 is ported and the other saws are stock at the point of this post is incorrect, please correct me. I read the first few posts when they were mounted with great interest but am unwilling to dogpaddle through the detritus of what came after.
> 
> Definitely eager to see the vid of them going head to head after they're all ported. Frankly, considering the balderdash typical of this type of speculative thread, I'd be VERY happy to see the final comparison vids posted IN A NEW THREAD so enquiring minds don't have to filter the shytestorm to get to the diamonds.
> 
> Again, correct me if I'm wrong about the mods/stock, but this thread should not have been started until all the mods were done and the saw vids produced. With the final results not done, this thread is nothing more than masturbation. In other words, shut up until you got something definitive to say.
> 
> I'm just saying.
> 
> Thanks!



The whole outline of this thread was to compare a ported 7901 with a stock 390 and 660. Then port the 390 and 660 to see just how far in front they will be, if any, although I do expect them to lay a whipping on the 7901 once modded in larger wood. If Brad can't run a larger wood comparo I'll run one when they get to Australia. The other comparo which people like yourself may find more interesting is the 390 vs. 660 - in fact I am likely to find this more interesting as well 
A new thread isn't needed - just flick to the last few pages and scan for vids or results.
If you don't like it stop dogpaddling through the detritus and read another thread.


----------



## StihlyinEly

MCW said:


> Yeah Brad. We know the Dolmar Mahle setups are pretty tidy just interested to see the others.
> 
> By the way, I'm going to head home for lunch from work just to see the video - can't access Youtube at work which is a good thing
> 
> 
> 
> The whole outline of this thread was to compare a ported 7901 with a stock 390 and 660. Then port the 390 and 660 to see just how far in front they will be, if any, although I do expect them to lay a whipping on the 7901 once modded in larger wood. If Brad can't run a larger wood comparo I'll run one when they get to Australia. The other comparo which people like yourself may find more interesting is the 390 vs. 660 - in fact I am likely to find this more interesting as well
> A new thread isn't needed - just flick to the last few pages and scan for vids or results.
> If you don't like it stop dogpaddling through the detritus and read another thread.



Thanks for the explainer, MCW. Even though I've been a saw guy for a long time, there are times I feel I'm struggling to understand all the insider stuff on this forum. Your explanation was worthwhile and welcome. 

Props to you!


----------



## Erick

blsnelling said:


> Are you begging?:hmm3grin2orange:



 Ummm NO! 

I think you may even have a 9-pin lying around somewhere don't ya???


----------



## nmurph

Brad,
i've got a ex-patriated HD kita with a new 79cc top end. if you would like to throw it in the mix, the shipping will be on my dime.


----------



## Anthony_Va.

Was it Sycamore that you we're cutting? That is prolly a good piece of wood to do these test cuts on. Kinda soft. I think you would get the best consistancy in softer wood. JMO. Good job!


----------



## little possum

rms61moparman said:


> Some around here have been saying this for a WHILE now.
> It has even been called the "Undisputed King of Bang for the Buck"!
> 
> 
> Mike


Not in my little orange world 

But you have to buy the new 7900 then get it ported which costs even more $ if your not a DIYer. Just so it will outcut the stock 90ccs
But you could still come out with less $ invested than the other new saws.
That is with new saws, I realize the HD kitas and the Mahle kit can be a good deal
Power to weight ratio comes into the equation also. So the 7900 may shine

Thats my .03$ worth.

Carry on. Im interested in seeing the end result


----------



## blsnelling

nmurph said:


> Brad,
> i've got a ex-patriated HD kita with a new 79cc top end. if you would like to throw it in the mix, the shipping will be on my dime.



I appreciate the offer, but will pass. I'm having trouble enough keeping up with what I've got


----------



## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> I appreciate the offer, but will pass. I'm having trouble enough keeping up with what I've got



Shyte, I hear that.


----------



## 2000ssm6

If the 660 and 390 can't walk away from that 7901 after porting, something is wrong.


----------



## blsnelling

I realize most are probably more interested in seeing the 660/390 comparison. But it's cool to see the next size smaller saw compared to it's bigger brothers.

Once ported, I plan to test with 32" bars in Oak.


----------



## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> *But it's cool to see the next size smaller saw compared to it's bigger brothers.*
> 
> Once ported, I plan to test with 32" bars in Oak.



Cool? Not for me. Maybe for motorheads. There's no joy for me to see a smaller ported saw compared with a larger stock saw. Doesn't matter who manufactured what.

Now that I understand the gist of this thread (thanks again, MCW), the only comparison that matters to me is the one between the ported 660 and 390. And that matters to me about as much as whether one soap opera star has a slightly higher rating than a competing star. In other words, it's fun, not meaningful, to compare them. Out there in the guts of the cut, a few tenths of a second one way or another is the least important factor in my day.

But we love our saw ####ography, eh? Show me those saws cutting naked! :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling

StihlyinEly said:


> Cool? Not for me. Maybe for motorheads. There's no joy for me to see a smaller ported saw compared with a larger stock saw. Doesn't matter who manufactured what.
> 
> Now that I understand the gist of this thread (thanks again, MCW), the only comparison that matters to me is the one between the ported 660 and 390. And that matters to me about as much as whether one soap opera star has a slightly higher rating than a competing star. In other words, it's fun, not meaningful, to compare them. Out there in the guts of the cut, a few tenths of a second one way or another is the least important factor in my day.
> 
> But we love our saw ####ography, eh? Show me those saws cutting naked! :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



Baah humbug. You've got CAD and you know it. Why else would you be hangin' out in a chainsaw forum?:hmm3grin2orange: This is all about having a good time


----------



## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> Baah humbug. You've got CAD and you know it. Why else would you be hangin' out in a chainsaw forum?:hmm3grin2orange: This is all about having a good time



Good times = naked women. You got any of that to share, or is it just cylinder honing/porting ####?   

Bring it!


----------



## blsnelling

StihlyinEly said:


> ...or is it just cylinder honing/porting ####?



That about sums up my boring life


----------



## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> That about sums up my boring life



You need a hot babe from the Stihl calendar. As a photographer specializing in candids, I can hook you up. 

Well, not seriously. But I do a lot of candid models, and it sounded good.  

Hone on, dude!!!! :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Anthony_Va.

QUOTE=blsnelling;2240638]That about sums up my boring life[/QUOTE]

Well, maybe you can hire some models to catch cookies for you. Might cure your bordom and make some great videos even better,


----------



## luvsaws

Stihly, now your just adding to the circle jerk:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## StihlyinEly

luvsaws said:


> Stihly, now your just adding to the circle jerk:hmm3grin2orange:



Busted!  

Seriously though, I could hook Brad up here in Ely, where it's all about earthiness. Babes that look REALLY good in the bar, but when you get them home and undressed, they have hair not only down under, but on their legs, under their arms, and on their backs. 

I'm continually relieved that I am happily married to a woman who knows the value of a razor when it comes to personal grooming. If I was back out on the market among these Ely Yetis, I'd give sex up totally. Who wants to mate with a chick that has more hair and body odor than I do? :chainsawguy:

Oh wait, was that off topic? Golly, what a shock!


----------



## blsnelling

:arg: Me think ely be PUIing.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> :arg: Me think ely be PUIing.



Little bit lol.


Moving on. If possible I'd like to run my EHP-7900 against the kita, as my life is pretty boring as well.


----------



## MCW

StihlyinEly said:


> Thanks for the explainer, MCW. Even though I've been a saw guy for a long time, there are times I feel I'm struggling to understand all the insider stuff on this forum. Your explanation was worthwhile and welcome.
> 
> Props to you!



No worries mate  I would have LOVED to throw a stock 7900/7901 into the mix but by the time myself and Brad talked about the 390/660 plan the 7901 had already been completed. I can tell you now though a stock 7900, as good as it is, would struggle against a 390XP or MS660. Another thing too is that even though a modded 7900 will pull even 42" bars quite convincingly in hardwood the oiler will not keep up. If you plan on running any bars over 32" for extended periods, particularly in harder woods, then the 7900 is not the saw to choose. I know my 390XPG pumps out plenty of oil on a 32" bar.



little possum said:


> Not in my little orange world
> 
> But you have to buy the new 7900 then get it ported which costs even more $ if your not a DIYer. Just so it will outcut the stock 90ccs
> But you could still come out with less $ invested than the other new saws.
> That is with new saws, I realize the HD kitas and the Mahle kit can be a good deal
> Power to weight ratio comes into the equation also. So the 7900 may shine
> 
> Thats my .03$ worth.
> 
> Carry on. Im interested in seeing the end result



Another thing too though mate is overall saw weight although balance does come into it as well. With a standard (non lightweight) 32" bar a 7900 is nose heavy but still OK I've found for all day use. The 390XP, although it has a heavier powerhead, actually doesn't "feel" heavier after using one all day, even though it is actually heavier. The 390XP balances far better with longer bars.
The mods and the Dolmar HD filter kit are certainly things you need to factor into a 7900's overall cost though if you are considering one over a 390XP or MS660. There won't be much in it apart from the weight. If you want to spend the extra $100-150 on getting a pop up done like the 7901 in this thread then that makes a difference to the cost too. I'll let Brad mention pricing but the overall cost is quite attractive if rebuilding an ex rental 6401 with a 7900 P&C like in this case.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> Little bit lol.
> 
> 
> Moving on. If possible I'd like to run my EHP-7900 against the kita, as my life is pretty boring as well.



You know where I live Bust out early tomorrow about noon and we can make some chips. We could even throw some 8-pins on these saws for Erick:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## StihlyinEly

blsnelling said:


> Me think ely be PUIing.



Well, no. Not under the influence. Hey, it was YOU who invited the off topic by whining about your boring life. 

Deal with the aftermath.


----------



## little possum

Good point on the balance, Matt

They are all good saws. IMO 
Dealer support sways my opinion though.

Brad, you could be porting instead of posting


----------



## StihlyinEly

little possum said:


> Brad, you could be porting instead of posting



Nahhhhhhh. :deadhorse:


----------



## MCW

Just came home for lunch to watch that video. The Makita is most certainly a strong saw thats for sure.
I suppose if anybody has a 7900 and has been thinking of jumping up to the 90cc class they should seriously consider getting their 7900 modded - at least we can all get some appreciation of just how good modded saws can be, not only 7900's. Although this 7901 has been taken a tad further than average I suspect even a basic wood's ported 7900/7901 with no pop up would be level pegging a 390XP/MS660 with up to maybe a 28" bar.
I can assure you that a properly modded saw will have no more reliability issues than a stock saw.


----------



## Andyshine77

MCW said:


> Just came home for lunch to watch that video. The Makita is most certainly a strong saw thats for sure.
> I suppose if anybody has a 7900 and has been thinking of jumping up to the 90cc class they should seriously consider getting their 7900 modded - at least we can all get some appreciation of just how good modded saws can be, not only 7900's. Although this 7901 has been taken a tad further than average I suspect even a basic wood's ported 7900/7901 with no pop up would be level pegging a 390XP/MS660 with up to maybe a 28" bar.
> I can assure you that a properly modded saw will have no more reliability issues than a stock saw.



Matt we may be running my stock 7900 and EHP7900 against the other saws. I can't promise this, but we'll see what we can do in the next few days.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> Matt we may be running my stock 7900 and EHP7900 against the other saws. I can't promise this, but we'll see what we can do in the next few days.



Good stuff Andy. I just hope that Brad doesn't have to fell about 100 acres of forest to get enough wood for the comparos


----------



## AUSSIE1

I was surprised the 390 and the 660 were that close.
The 390 is a well balanced honest saw but wouldn't set your house on fire in stock form. A well ported 372 will whip it's butt up to 2ft wood, hardwood even, but they do port well. We do need to remember that everybody ports there saws differently also. Will be interesting to see how the filtering of the 660 goes Matt! 

BTW, glad there is 9 odd pages and hope there is more.


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> I was surprised the 390 and the 660 were that close.
> The 390 is a well balanced honest saw but wouldn't set your house on fire in stock form. A well ported 372 will whip it's butt up to 2ft wood, hardwood even, but they do port well. We do need to remember that everybody ports there saws differently also. Will be interesting to see how the filtering of the 660 goes Matt!
> 
> BTW, glad there is 9 odd pages and hope there is more.



Ya, I agree. I've handled a 390 but never cut with one, it felt real nice.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Listing the before and after comp readings would be interesting!


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> I was surprised the 390 and the 660 were that close. Will be interesting to see how the filtering of the 660 goes Matt!
> 
> BTW, glad there is 9 odd pages and hope there is more.



Yeah if this saw hits a soft spot Al I'll look at the HD kit that some of the other Aussies here are running. I know the filtering won't be adequate unless Stihl have changed their filters in some way. Regardless I'll give it a workout. First thing I'll do though if I decide to keep it will be to swap it over to 9mm studs so all my Husky bars will fit 



AUSSIE1 said:


> Listing the before and after comp readings would be interesting!



Yeah that would be pretty interesting Al. I know it is only one saw of each and I'm sure there is variation between saws of the same model but would be interesting nonetheless


----------



## Anthony_Va.

StihlyinEly said:


> I'm continually relieved that I am happily married to a woman who knows the value of a razor when it comes to personal grooming. :



You know the rules man, didnt happen without pics.
















SOrry man, had to do it.


----------



## mdavlee

AUSSIE1 said:


> I was surprised the 390 and the 660 were that close.
> The 390 is a well balanced honest saw but wouldn't set your house on fire in stock form. A well ported 372 will whip it's butt up to 2ft wood, hardwood even, but they do port well. We do need to remember that everybody ports there saws differently also. Will be interesting to see how the filtering of the 660 goes Matt!
> 
> BTW, glad there is 9 odd pages and hope there is more.



The 372 that I ported was about 15% faster than the stock 390. When ported in about 2 ft oak the 390 was only a second faster. A 390 feels like a 70cc saw with 90 cc saw power.


----------



## Stihlman441

I would like to see the 660 in Aussy trim (TWIN PORT MUFFLER) in that sledded vid comparison,just to see the difference.
This is gunna be very interesting thanks guys.opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## AUSSIE1

mdavlee said:


> The 372 that I ported was about 15% faster than the stock 390. When ported in about 2 ft oak the 390 was only a second faster. A 390 feels like a 70cc saw with 90 cc saw power.



Any alteration to durations?


----------



## mdavlee

Nope, I've never even checked timing on any saws yet. Just basic widening of intake and exhaust. Didn't even touch the lower transfers at all. You can look at videos of them on youtube. Just search my user name on here. I don't want to clutter up this thread too much.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Nope, I've never even checked timing on any saws yet. Just basic widening of intake and exhaust. Didn't even touch the lower transfers at all. You can look at videos of them on youtube. Just search my user name on here. I don't want to clutter up this thread too much.



If you want to whack Youtube links in I say go for it


----------



## Evan

heck why not throw a 359 in the mix for sawtroll


----------



## blsnelling

OK Erick, you talked me into it The first clip here is way less than ideal. I wanted to bury the bars, but didn't have a good piece of wood to do it in. So take it for what it's worth. I didn't realize the bar wasn't all the way in the wood on the first cut of the 7901. Oh well. A couple things are still pretty clear though. 

1. The 7901 is still fastest under both normal and max loads.
2. The 390 is a *hair *faster than the 660 under both normal and max loads. I'm talking like 0.10-0.30 seconds.
3. All of the saws made slower cuts under max load than normal load, where as they were all faster under max load with a 7-pin.
4. Bottom line, the 390 and 660 are still very comparable.
5. They all pull an 8-pin rim well in this wood with 24" B&Cs.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/edrUhufZ0m8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/edrUhufZ0m8&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## blsnelling

The results in this vid are the same.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bjqhqjFpjTE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bjqhqjFpjTE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## blsnelling

Am I allowed to port them now?:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Anthony_Va.

blsnelling said:


> Am I allowed to port them now?:greenchainsaw:



Have at it brother!


----------



## TRI955

Still want a 390XP....


----------



## little possum

ported 79ers :drool:
Got to run another one today, compared to stock. 

Well worth opening the ports up. :jawdrop:

But I still like the 390Xp


----------



## Tiger Rag

little possum said:


> ported 79ers :drool:
> Got to run another one today, compared to stock.
> 
> Well worth opening the ports up. :jawdrop:
> 
> But I still like the 390Xp




Uuuuuuh, yep on the ported 7900! Wow! I didn't know I could smile that big. Might need to send Brad a package soon!


----------



## jeepyfz450

pretty cool tests and vids. do you think the results would be the same in 30+'' wood with the 2 stock big boys and the ported kitty?


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Am I allowed to port them now?:greenchainsaw:



Go nuts Brad 

Super nuts...

Do you think it's worth doing pop ups as well?


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> Go nuts Brad
> 
> Super nuts...
> 
> Do you think it's worth doing pop ups as well?



I believe you get 95% of the gains without the popup. Plus that just complicates things should you ever need to replace the piston. I'm inclined to leave them be.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> I believe you get 95% of the gains without the popup. Plus that just complicates things should you ever need to replace the piston. I'm inclined to leave them be.



No probs Brad. Just checking  Good stuff by the way. Hope you don't run out of wood!


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> No probs Brad. Just checking  Good stuff by the way. Hope you don't run out of wood!



There are only 2 trees on this property left to drop. Both are greater than 40" Oaks! There are still several trunks I've not bucked up, that I hope to mill sometime.


----------



## Erick

blsnelling said:


> Am I allowed to port them now?:greenchainsaw:



Alright, well I guess you can go ahead and port them... you have my blessing.


----------



## gink595

little possum said:


> ported 79ers :drool:
> Got to run another one today, compared to stock.
> 
> Well worth opening the ports up. :jawdrop:
> 
> But I still like the 390Xp



Whos ported 7900 did you run?


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> There are only 2 trees on this property left to drop. Both are greater than 40" Oaks! There are still several trunks I've not bucked up, that I hope to mill sometime.



Seriously though if you have any issues finding wood by all means mod them, send them out, and I'll run vids out here. I sometimes forget that I've got wood everywhere here. You could live in a desert for all I know 

It's also a big no no to start hacking into good milling logs. I did that once then realised later what that particular piece of wood was worth to a guy I know that does woodturning. He was gonna kill me when I told him


----------



## little possum

gink595 said:


> Whos ported 7900 did you run?



JT78's self ported 79er


----------



## Wildman1024

I wonder how my Echo 900 would compare ported next to those saws??? That would be interesting


----------



## MCW

little possum said:


> JT78's self ported the other day



Got more info? Sounds bad 



Wildman1024 said:


> I wonder how my Echo 900 would compare ported next to those saws??? That would be interesting



I have a 29cc 290EVL that runs like a 55cc saw bog stock. When it runs  Only kidding...

I like Echos and they have a very good reputation around here.


----------



## Wildman1024

MCW said:


> Got more info? Sounds bad
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 29cc 290EVL that runs like a 55cc saw bog stock. When it runs  Only kidding...
> 
> I like Echos and they have a very good reputation around here.



Not to take away from your thread but this 900 I have runs really strong and feels good in the hands. I think with a little port work it would be a real contender against the bigger names. I wouldn't mind seeing an upset or a saw get built that has never been done before


----------



## MCW

Wildman1024 said:


> Not to take away from your thread but this 900 I have runs really strong and feels good in the hands. I think with a little port work it would be a real contender against the bigger names. I wouldn't mind seeing an upset or a saw get built that has never been done before



You should get some videos mate in some decent wood and start a thread. People here will be able to tell straight away just how impressive it is and it's got me interested 
The biggest Echo I've seen around here was a 550EVL. Lots of smaller newer models around though...


----------



## Wildman1024

MCW said:


> You should get some videos mate in some decent wood and start a thread. People here will be able to tell straight away just how impressive it is and it's got me interested
> The biggest Echo I've seen around here was a 550EVL. Lots of smaller newer models around though...



I made some new videos from today. I made some a week ago after the new piston but the bar had a bend in it and wouldnt cut. I put a new bar on it today and got it in some 25" wood. It did well for an 8 pin and being 1 1/4 out on the H needle still

Here is the link to today's videos

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=136791&page=3


----------



## MCW

Wildman1024 said:


> I made some new videos from today. I made some a week ago after the new piston but the bar had a bend in it and wouldnt cut. I put a new bar on it today and got it in some 25" wood. It did well for an 8 pin and being 1 1/4 out on the H needle still
> 
> Here is the link to today's videos
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=136791&page=3



Good stuff and nice saw. Heaps and heaps of torque but not sure how it would go as far as cutting speed against newer saws like the 390XP or MS660. One things for sure though it will still be running in 10 years


----------



## gink595

little possum said:


> JT78's self ported the other day



Yeah I've heard of some Bad 7900's down in that NC/SC area


----------



## Tiger Rag

gink595 said:


> Yeah I've heard of some Bad 7900's down in that NC/SC area



Speaking of the devil......here's LP running it:

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b...te NC GTG/?action=view&current=P1030699-1.flv


----------



## gink595

That saw looks and sounds really good

Did JT78 do a build thread on that here?


----------



## Tiger Rag

gink595 said:


> That saw looks and sounds really good
> 
> Did JT78 do a build thread on that here?



I really don't know. All I know is that you can't run it without your smile touching your ear on either side. LP proved that in the video. Awesome saw. He put a 28" bar on it later and it cranked through some big wood too.


----------



## mdavlee

Nice pictures and videos tiger rag.


----------



## Andyshine77

I honestly didn't know if the 7900 would keep up with the 8 pin, It's definitely one of the strongest 7900's I've ran. 

BTW, Frank no I haven't ran your saw yet.


----------



## mdavlee

Are they ported yet?oke:


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Very interesting comparison.


----------



## Erick

mdavlee said:


> Are they ported yet?oke:



No not yet... jeeesh, the guy doesn't have it that bad.


----------



## Erick

Okay, now they're ported.


----------



## blsnelling

Erick said:


> Okay, now they're ported.



Not!!!!!


----------



## Andyshine77

How about now??


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> How about now??



You guys know me all too well, lol


----------



## mdavlee

Should we expect videos by the afternoon then?


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Should we expect videos by the afternoon then?



I won't be touching them again until Monday.


----------



## mdavlee

Darn I'll be back on my wireless card with dialup speed then to watch videos. On the weekend I have a cable modem to view in HD.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Darn I'll be back on my wireless card with dialup speed then to watch videos. On the weekend I have a cable modem to view in HD.



I don't anticipate any more videos until both the 660 and 390 are both ported.


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> I believe you get 95% of the gains without the popup. Plus that just complicates things should you ever need to replace the piston. I'm inclined to leave them be.



What do you normally do for setting squish? Just remove the gasket?


----------



## mdavlee

I figured they were already ported by now.


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> What do you normally do for setting squish? Just remove the gasket?



I make a gasket out of what ever gasket thickness is needed to get the squish I want.


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> I make a gasket out of what ever gasket thickness is needed to get the squish I want.



I see. Makes sense. I just like doing pop-up's, well, because I can I guess.


----------



## Jacob J.

parrisw said:


> I see. Makes sense. I just like doing pop-up's, well, because I can I guess.



No need to show off...


----------



## parrisw

Jacob J. said:


> No need to show off...



ha ha. sorry! you know your pistons and cylinders are welcome here anytime! Even you too!


----------



## Andyshine77

Not to take over this thread or anything, but from my limited experience and from limited testing, it's my opinion pop-up's give you very little if anything in a normal woods ported saw. Tightening things up by removing the base gasket or turning down the base is the way to go for a normal woods saw IMHO. I've also noticed some saws seem to like more compression than others. Take this for what it is, as I'm no engineer.

Andre.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Andyshine77 said:


> Not to take over this thread or anything, but from my limited experience and from limited testing, it's my opinion pop-up's give you very little if anything in a normal woods ported saw. Tightening things up by removing the base gasket or turning down the base is the way to go for a normal woods saw IMHO. I've also noticed some saws seem to like more compression than others. Take this for what it is, as I'm no engineer.
> 
> Andre.



Just that some need both popup and base turned, the 385/390 being a couple of them.


----------



## Andyshine77

AUSSIE1 said:


> Just that some need both popup and base turned, the 385/390 being a couple of them.



That's exactly what I was referring to.

I've only seen small gains if any on most saws. A race saw is a different story. Theoretically more compression will give you more power, however you often have limitations with crown and base thickness. Most pop-up's with the limitations will only net 10 to 20 pounds of added compression, not really enough to make a difference, and not worth the effort IMHO.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Andyshine77 said:


> That's exactly what I was referring to.
> 
> I've only seen small gains if any on most saws. A race saw is a different story. Theoretically more compression will give you more power, however you often have limitations with crown and base thickness. Most pop-up's with the limitations will only net 10 to 20 pounds of added compression, not really enough to make a difference, and not worth the effort IMHO.



Yep, admittedly I couldn't say I could feel a 10-20psi increase but my thinking has been that a combination of some minor improvements may add up. 
35-45psi to my 385 would be a welcome increase though.


----------



## Andyshine77

AUSSIE1 said:


> Yep, admittedly I couldn't say I could feel a 10-20psi increase but my thinking has been that a combination of some minor improvements may add up.
> 35-45psi to my 385 would be a welcome increase though.



I completely understand where you're coming from, I was there not so long ago myself. However after some recent testing, in my opinion a pop-up in a good woods ported saw, for the most part gives you nothing. It actually may be somewhat detrimental in the long run. IMHO

Yup 34-45psi would be worth the effort. The 7900 in this thread has a significant pop-up and the compression jumped up pretty good, and it definitely added some power. However Brad and Nik did pushed the limits of what could be done with the machining.

Andre.


----------



## MCW

I'd like to see the stock compressions on both the 390 and 660 if possible Brad, just out of interest


----------



## arborjockey

Andyshine77 said:


> I completely understand where you're coming from, I was there not so long ago myself. However after some recent testing, in my opinion a pop-up in a good woods ported saw, for the most part gives you nothing. It actually may be somewhat detrimental in the long run. IMHO
> 
> Yup 34-45psi would be worth the effort. The 7900 in this thread has a significant pop-up and the compression jumped up pretty good, and it definitely added some power. However Brad and Nik did pushed the limits of what could be done with the machining.
> 
> Andre.


Getting more compression is only one part of the puzzle while building any small engine. Getting your charge in and out is #1. Porting is a fine art. The power go's up and go's up as you port a little more and a little more then it falls flat on its face. Same with intake etc. Some so called modified motors when set up against stock have less power. :monkey:no joke.raising compression is a miner gain. Although the compression go's up from a thinner base gasket you have now lowered your ports. so theirs now porting involved and more work. The B.M.E.P is high on saws but i prefer slight exhaust porting and they run forever.


----------



## MCW

arborjockey said:


> Getting more compression is only one part of the puzzle while building any small engine. Getting your charge in and out is #1. Porting is a fine art. The power go's up and go's up as you port a little more and a little more then it falls flat on its face. Same with intake etc. Some so called modified motors when set up against stock have less power. :monkey:no joke.raising compression is a miner gain. Although the compression go's up from a thinner base gasket you have now lowered your ports. so theirs now porting involved and more work. The B.M.E.P is high on saws but i prefer slight exhaust porting and they run forever.



You're right. I dropped the base gasket out of one of my modded 7900's and the cold compression went from 180psi to just over 200psi. The throttle response and power in the cut was instantly noticeable. Completely different saw now.


----------



## flushcut

opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## mdavlee

I would say the 390 has around 140-150 lbs and the 660 is probably at 150-170 from the ones I had. The stihls seem to have more compression than the huskys.


----------



## little possum

Tiger Rag said:


> I really don't know. All I know is that you can't run it without your smile touching your ear on either side. LP proved that in the video. Awesome saw. He put a 28" bar on it later and it cranked through some big wood too.


That there isnt JTs work, but that saw is strong too :monkey:
He did do the 5100 though. 


Anywhos, Brad, are ya done yet???


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> I would say the 390 has around 140-150 lbs and the 660 is probably at 150-170 from the ones I had. The stihls seem to have more compression than the huskys.



Spot on. My 390XPG has 155psi but I'm a bit wary the guage was bleeding pressure. My 3120 was 145psi and this saw hasn't seen much work. For some reason my new guage's fitting didn't want to bottom out properly in my Huskys but was fine in the Dolmars.


----------



## 2000ssm6

little possum said:


> That there isnt JTs work, but that saw is strong too :monkey:
> He did do the 5100 though.
> 
> 
> Anywhos, Brad, are ya done yet???



I was getting cornfused on those 7900s. JTs ran great but the EC7900 was a jaw dropper! Anyone who thinks the 7900 doesn't run well when ported right, needs to run that one.:jawdrop: That coming from a Stihl man to boot!

My 044 wasn't but a few tenths behind it with a good chain.


----------



## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> Not to take over this thread or anything, but from my limited experience and from limited testing, it's my opinion pop-up's give you very little if anything in a normal woods ported saw. Tightening things up by removing the base gasket or turning down the base is the way to go for a normal woods saw IMHO. I've also noticed some saws seem to like more compression than others. Take this for what it is, as I'm no engineer.
> 
> Andre.



I agree and disagree. If your going as far as to mill the cylinder base, I say go all the way and do a popup piston as well, every little bit helps, if your giving the saw more fuel, then you need more compression to take all the advantage of the extra fuel, the higher the cylinder pressures, then more fuel will burn, giving more power. 

FYI, I did some machine work on a new 390 about a month ago, it got a .030 popup with squish ending at .019-.020, and the guy reported to me compression tested at 190psi.


----------



## mdavlee

Wow I bet a 390 would really scream with 190 lbs. Mine only had 150 after break in. I don't know if the new owner has checked it or not anymore.


----------



## mtngun

Andyshine77 said:


> Tightening things up by removing the base gasket or turning down the base is the way to go for a normal woods saw IMHO.


That may work great on a saw that comes from the factory with sloppy squish (Dolmar and Husky), but the new 660s come with tight squish and a lame compression ratio. 

Porting alone tends to shift the powerband to higher RPMs, and may actually hurt the mid range. Compression improves torque at all RPMs. Compression is a very good thing on a work saw.

I'm not talking insanely high compression, just an honest 165 - 175 psi.


----------



## gink595

mtngun said:


> That may work great on a saw that comes from the factory with sloppy squish (Dolmar and Husky), but the new 660s come with tight squish and a lame compression ratio.



:monkey: I'm not sure what the squish on my stock 7900 was but compression was 180-185 stock. My 066 was sloppy with like .054 squish and 150 lbs. Compression.


----------



## mtngun

gink595 said:


> My 066 was sloppy with like .054 squish and 150 lbs. Compression.


According to Timberwolf and others, the older 066 jugs had smaller combustion chambers and came from the factory with sloppy squish (I wish I could get my hands on one of those old jugs ). Great compression could usually be achieved merely by setting minimum squish.

New 660's (and the 660 BB kit) come from the factory with 0.022" - 0.028" squish. Not much room for tightening up. Combustion chambers on the new Stihl jugs seem to be a little bigger than they used to be, too, though it varies from one jug to the next.

At least the new BB kit has a smaller combustion chamber and produces good compression as-is.

We'll see what Brad finds on the test 660. Have the OEM compression and squish been posted yet ?


----------



## blsnelling

I have not measured anything on the two new saws yet. I will be, probably starting tomorrow. I just ported a later model 066 Friday. Squish on it was about .017 from the factory. I did not check the compression. I did take a lot of pics of it since I figured it was a good example of a Mahle P&C. I don't know yet, but I suspect this 660 does not have a Mahle P&C and know Matt's would like to see pics of it. I thought it might be interesting for reference.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun said:


> According to Timberwolf and others, the older 066 jugs had smaller combustion chambers and came from the factory with sloppy squish (I wish I could get my hands on one of those old jugs ). Great compression could usually be achieved merely by setting minimum squish.
> 
> New 660's (and the 660 BB kit) come from the factory with 0.022" - 0.028" squish. Not much room for tightening up. Combustion chambers on the new Stihl jugs seem to be a little bigger than they used to be, too, though it varies from one jug to the next.
> 
> At least the new BB kit has a smaller combustion chamber and produces good compression as-is.
> 
> We'll see what Brad finds on the test 660. Have the OEM compression and squish been posted yet ?



If you start with 150psi of compression and go up to 170, IMHO you gain nothing, this is from some testing I've done and from some research that I've done. From what I've seen most port their saw, add the pop-up run the saw and automatically think the pop-up gave them something. If you were to port the saw do timed cuts, than add a pop-up, gain 20psi than do more timed cuts you'd see little or no gain IMHO. 

If you want sloppy tolerances look no farther than Stihl IMHO, their new P&C have been the lowest quality compared to Husky and Dolmar by a long mile.


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> I agree and disagree. If your going as far as to mill the cylinder base, I say go all the way and do a popup piston as well, every little bit helps, if your giving the saw more fuel, then you need more compression to take all the advantage of the extra fuel, the higher the cylinder pressures, then more fuel will burn, giving more power.
> 
> FYI, I did some machine work on a new 390 about a month ago, it got a .030 popup with squish ending at .019-.020, and the guy reported to me compression tested at 190psi.



I agree with you 100% But can you tell me how much power the saw gained from the pop-up? did you do testing before you added the pop-up than after you added the pop-up? I'd honestly like to know, as I only know one saw builder that did this, and he no longer uses pop-up's in most woods saws, as his testing showed little to no gains in most saws.


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> Wow I bet a 390 would really scream with 190 lbs. Mine only had 150 after break in. I don't know if the new owner has checked it or not anymore.





Andyshine77 said:


> I agree with you 100% But can you tell me how much power the saw gained from the pop-up? did you do testing before you added the pop-up than after you added the pop-up? I'd honestly like to know, as I only know one saw builder that did this, and he no longer uses pop-up's in most woods saws, as his testing showed little to no gains in most saws.



Yes, your right I would have to assume, a .020 popup wont net much. And ya 20psi wont net much of anything. Allot of saws seem to be around the 140-150 mark stock, if you can get that to say 180-190, that is going to help allot. I built a car once and went from 8.8:1 to 11.2:1 compression ratio, OMG what a difference, that wasn't the only thing I did, you can hear it in the ex note when you up the compression allot. Check this vid out, listen to the idle, I guarantee a stock 395 doesn't sound like this at all.

Pay no mind to the mediocre chain on it. This saw has allot of balls down low.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6joUhQHNVnM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6joUhQHNVnM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## rms61moparman

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree with you 100% But can you tell me how much power the saw gained from the pop-up? did you do testing before you added the pop-up than after you added the pop-up? I'd honestly like to know, as I only know one saw builder that did this, and he no longer uses pop-up's in most woods saws, as his testing showed little to no gains in most saws.






I would guess it would all depend on what you started with.

A saw with good 150+ compression to start with wouldn't see nearly the gain that a saw with 120 to begin with, would. (IMHO)
The 365 I did started with somewhere in the 150-160 range and went to 190+ with just a cylinder shave of .023.
I don't think there would be ANY gain in cut times with a pop-up on that saw and it would, in all probability, actually slow it down unless you brought the rest of the engine up to a higher level to match the compression. (i.e. more port work, bigger carb, transfer work, ign. timing etc.)

I can however see it adding a lot more strain on the starting system of the saw AND the operator!!!LOL 


Mike


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> Yes, your right I would have to assume, a .020 popup wont net much. And ya 20psi wont net much of anything.



Precisely what I was saying.


----------



## Andyshine77

rms61moparman said:


> I would guess it would all depend on what you started with.
> 
> A saw with good 150+ compression to start with wouldn't see nearly the gain that a saw with 120 to begin with, would. (IMHO)
> The 365 I did started with somewhere in the 150-160 range and went to 190+ with just a cylinder shave of .023.
> I don't think there would be ANY gain in cut times with a pop-up on that saw and it would, in all probability, actually slow it down unless you brought the rest of the engine up to a higher level to match the compression. (i.e. more port work, bigger carb, transfer work, ign. timing etc.)
> 
> I can however see it adding a lot more strain on the starting system of the saw AND the operator!!!LOL
> 
> 
> Mike



:agree2: Excellent post Mike!


----------



## AUSSIE1

Well it's a balance of various things.
Some saws with lousy comp readings that respond well to some reasonable timing no's need that comp increase. 385/90's for instance. A combination of mods is what it's about.
A 10=20psi may not necessarily show up in the cut, but help sustain a cut, even if ever minute.


----------



## the westspartan

The best argument I have heard for running a stock (non-pop-up) piston, in a true work saw, is ease of piston replacement. If your saw is set up for a pop-up and for whatever reason the piston needs to be replaced, you must get the new one turned down so that it matches the old one. It is a heck of a lot easier to just toss in a new one instead of taking it down to the machine shop first.


----------



## parrisw

the westspartan said:


> The best argument I have heard for running a stock (non-pop-up) piston, in a true work saw, is ease of piston replacement. If your saw is set up for a pop-up and for whatever reason the piston needs to be replaced, you must get the new one turned down so that it matches the old one. It is a heck of a lot easier to just toss in a new one instead of taking it down to the machine shop first.



Too true. But I have a lathe, and that was my argument, that why not do it?


----------



## mtngun

Andyshine77 said:


> If you start with 150psi of compression and go up to 170, IMHO you gain nothing


Here's a detailed build of a 660 woods port that starts at 150 psi and ends up at 170. Timed cuts were done at several steps along the way.
Timberwolf's 660 build

If I remember correctly, even TW once said that in some cases, dropping the jug to raise compression may actually slow the saw down, unless port timing is adjusted to compensate.

Since we are talking about the 660, which has excessive exhaust duration, its exhaust port timing may actually benefit from dropping the jug. 

It's ultimately up to the customer whether he wants a pop-up. If he wants a 145 psi 660, that's his call.

No argument about the quality of recent Stihl jugs. If only Stihl would make better jugs, with sane timing and a healthy compression ratio ......  As it is, they're getting spanked by the competition.


----------



## the westspartan

parrisw said:


> Too true. But I have a lathe, and that was my argument, that why not do it?



If you have a lathe and the saw in question is yours, it is a different story!


----------



## parrisw

the westspartan said:


> If you have a lathe and the saw in question is yours, it is a different story!



Yes, that was my argument. I think next build I'll do no popup just to see.


----------



## brncreeper

*Ms660*



mtngun said:


> Here's a detailed build of a 660 woods port that starts at 150 psi and ends up at 170. Timed cuts were done at several steps along the way.
> Timberwolf's 660 build
> 
> If I remember correctly, even TW once said that in some cases, dropping the jug to raise compression may actually slow the saw down, unless port timing is adjusted to compensate.
> 
> Since we are talking about the 660, which has excessive exhaust duration, its exhaust port timing may actually benefit from dropping the jug.
> 
> It's ultimately up to the customer whether he wants a pop-up. If he wants a 145 psi 660, that's his call.
> 
> No argument about the quality of recent Stihl jugs. If only Stihl would make better jugs, with sane timing and a healthy compression ratio ......  As it is, they're getting spanked by the competition.


The MS660 is a touchy subject, an 066 is a different story. I've seen what a well tuned, non-ported 066 is capable of and it is nothing like a stock MS660. Personally as a work saw I'm satisfied with my MS660 just the way came from Stihl, I've added the DP muffler covers and retuned but anything else? nah, not when 372's gain soooo much better when ported(and you can still buy a new 372, the 440's are looooooong gone). Besides as soon as you hit your pride and joy 660 with a grinder, the resale value more than likely is lowered.
I kinda question those pop up set ups as far as reliability. They great in 5 seconds of video, but what about a days work of milling?


----------



## parrisw

brncreeper said:


> The MS660 is a touchy subject, an 066 is a different story. I've seen what a well tuned, non-ported 066 is capable of and it is nothing like a stock MS660. Personally as a work saw I'm satisfied with my MS660 just the way came from Stihl, I've added the DP muffler covers and retuned but anything else? nah, not when 372's gain soooo much better when ported(and you can still buy a new 372, the 440's are looooooong gone). Besides as soon as you hit your pride and joy 660 with a grinder, the resale value more than likely is lowered.
> I kinda question those pop up set ups as far as reliability. They great in 5 seconds of video, but what about a days work of milling?



I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be reliable with a popup, as long as you have enough crown thickness left.


----------



## BlackOakTreeServ

blsnelling said:


> I realize most are probably more interested in seeing the 660/390 comparison. But it's cool to see the next size smaller saw compared to it's bigger brothers.
> 
> Once ported, I plan to test with 32" bars in Oak.



Dont port yet...I would like to see the stock 660/390 with 36" bars in big oak!!

No offense, but I would never use my 660 with 24" bar, thats what my 440 is for....660 with big bar, for big oak....this would be a fair comparison bro.


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be reliable with a popup, as long as you have enough crown thickness left.



+1. There's nothing about a popup that would make it unliable if done right.


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> +1. There's nothing about a popup that would make it unliable if done right.



Thanks!

The only thing I wonder about having a popup in a 2 stroke is the flow across the piston and what it does to it?


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The only thing I wonder about having a popup in a 2 stroke is the flow across the piston and what it does to it?



I was talking with Nik about this the other day, I wonder how much if any turbulence the pop-up may cause.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Andyshine77 said:


> I was talking with Nik about this the other day, I wonder how much if any turbulence the pop-up may cause.



Would depend on how much popup and shape I'd say and probably during the initial opening mostly. But we can only guess.


----------



## Mastermind

parrisw said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The only thing I wonder about having a popup in a 2 stroke is the flow across the piston and what it does to it?



A 028 super sports a factory popup, as most of you guys already know.

I can't see any reason a popup piston would make a saw less dependable, unless as Brad mentioned the area above the rings was cut too thin.


----------



## blsnelling

mastermind7864 said:


> A 028 super sports a factory popup, as most of you guys already know.
> 
> I can't see any reason a popup piston would make a saw less dependable, unless as Brad mentioned the area above the rings was cut too thin.



That's a domed piston, rather than a popup. It has a smooth convex radius all the way from the edge of the piston.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> That's a domed piston, rather than a popup. It has a smooth convex radius all the way from the edge of the piston.



It is just raised in the center on the 028 super, on the early 028 AVs it was a dome.


----------



## MCW

Hey just a tech question Brad.
Is doing a popup just to gain compression only? If so by taking out the base gasket on my older 7900 and cracking 200psi compression does this mean, providing the porting is the same, that it would have the same power as a saw with a popup providing the compression is also 200psi?
Reason I ask is because my old saw has more compression than the 7901 you built but has nowhere near that amount of grunt


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> Is doing a popup just to gain compression only? If so by taking out the base gasket on my older 7900 and cracking 200psi compression does this mean, providing the porting is the same, that it would have the same power as a saw with a popup providing the compression is also 200psi?



Yes. The only reason I do it is for added compression.


----------



## Andyshine77

AUSSIE1 said:


> Would depend on how much popup and shape I'd say and probably during the initial opening mostly. But we can only guess.



That was also my thinking, particularly with the transfers, buy who knows.


----------



## husq2100

i thought Pop-ups were done to increase comp. and also decrease the CC size. now i know decreasing the CC will net more comp, but isnt there something else going on with a reduced CC????

Serg


----------



## blsnelling

The MS660 has been measured and is apart. Here are some specs on it.

Compression - 158
Squish - .019"

Exhaust - 95° ATDC - 170° Duration
Transfers - 120° ATDC - 120° Duration
Intake - 80° BTDC - 160° Duration
Blowdown - 25°

I've got a lot of pics of the P&C coming up.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The MS660 has been measured and is apart. Here are some specs on it.
> 
> Compression - 158
> Squish - .019"
> 
> Exhaust - 95° ATDC - 170° Duration
> Transfers - 120° ATDC - 120° Duration
> Intake - 80° BTDC - 160° Duration
> Blowdown - 25°
> 
> I've got a lot of pics of the P&C coming up.



Good stuff mate - interesting. Aren't you meant to be sleeping or something?


----------



## blsnelling

As expected, it is a Stihl P&C, not Mahle.


----------



## blsnelling

Intake


----------



## blsnelling

Transfers


----------



## blsnelling

Exhaust

















Combustion Chamber


----------



## blsnelling

Piston























Case/Crank


----------



## blsnelling

And, last, but not least...the price I paid for getting a compression check. I hit my arm on the bottom edge of the counter top


----------



## MCW

OUCH! Hey quality of the castings from the photos looks good. What's your opinion by using your eyeballs?


----------



## splitpost

:jawdrop::jawdrop:those casting are very ordinary to say the least ,i got an after market 660 kit from taiwan that has cleaner ports than that,wish i had a good camera to take closeups


----------



## blsnelling

Now, for comparison, here's some shots of a 066 Mahle P&C that I just ported. This saw has seen a lot of wood.








Exhaust












Intake


----------



## blsnelling

Transfers






















Combustion Chamber


----------



## blsnelling

Piston


----------



## MCW

splitpost said:


> :jawdrop::jawdrop:those casting are very ordinary to say the least ,i got an after market 660 kit from taiwan that has cleaner ports than that,wish i had a good camera to take closeups




Whoops. Maybe I don't really know what to look at  I thought they looked OK.

I see what you mean now compared to the Mahle setup


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> OUCH! Hey quality of the castings from the photos looks good. What's your opinion by using your eyeballs?



The casting is functional, but certainly nothing like the old Mahle topends. Matter of fact, this one is cleaner than some. There is a lot more sand casting in the ports, that will affect performance. All of that will be cleaned up with the port work though.


----------



## FATGUY

they're far from horrible, but far from Mahle too....


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> they're far from horrible, but far from Mahle too....



Exactly.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Is there any reason for the mismatch with the case halves at the base?


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> Is there any reason for the mismatch with the case halves at the base?



Ya, Stihl is cheaping out these days by the looks of it!


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> Ya, Stihl is cheaping out these days by the looks of it!



I'm not touching that Will, lol!


----------



## blsnelling

I'm hoping it's not a chrome cylinder. I ported a Stihl recently that was chrome, rather than NiSi. It may have been my new 440, but not positive. It wanted to chip. NiSi won't do that. Someone else noticed it by the color as well.


----------



## the westspartan

parrisw said:


> Ya, Stihl is cheaping out these days by the looks of it!



Not on everything though. My 441's cylinder looked pretty nice pre-port. It isn't a Mahle or a Stihl but a Giordani (the same make as the cylinder on my J-red 2095 interestingly). I am not sure what Stihl is putting on the other new pro-saws like the 362 and the forthcoming 261.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Cutting the area to be ported at the cyl with a diamond bit will reduce the risk of chipping.


----------



## Andyshine77

the westspartan said:


> Not on everything though. My 441's cylinder looked pretty nice pre-port. It isn't a Mahle or a Stihl but a Gilardoni (the same make as the cylinder on my J-red 2095 interestingly). I am not sure what Stihl is putting on the other new pro-saws like the 362 and the forthcoming 261.




Dan my 362 has a Mahle topend and it's very nice looking from what I can see. The Gilardoni cylinders I've seen are also top of the line, in fact maybe the best of the bunch IMHO.


----------



## the westspartan

Andyshine77 said:


> Dan my 362 has a Mahle topend and it's very nice looking from what I can see. The Giordani cylinders I've seen are also top of the line, in fact maybe the best of the bunch IMHO.



It's very interesting to me that the last of the older design, legendary Stihls being made and sold right now seem to all have these sub-par parts. I guess it is promising that the new strato stuff has the high end components, but it is frustrating to think that a company like Stihl would tarnish their reputation like this. I hadn't heard about some Stihl cylinders being chromed instead of NiSi coated until Brad's post, but that is unbelievable.


----------



## Jacob J.

Gilardoni used to make cylinders for a lot of the big saws- Pioneer P-62, Husky 2100, Partner P100, Olympyk 999. The cylinders they made back then were works of art- near to perfectly symmetrical ports, perfect plating that was rock hard, nicely finished combustion chambers with no casting lines, etc. I almost hated porting those older saws since the cylinders looked so good stock.


----------



## Jacob J.

AUSSIE1 said:


> Is there any reason for the mismatch with the case halves at the base?



They've always pretty much been that way. Very few saws I get have perfectly matched case openings.


----------



## Jacob J.

blsnelling said:


>




Looks familiar....


----------



## Andyshine77

the westspartan said:


> It's very interesting to me that the last of the older design, legendary Stihls being made and sold right now seem to all have these sub-par parts. I guess it is promising that the new strato stuff has the high end components, but it is frustrating to think that a company like Stihl would tarnish their reputation like this. I hadn't heard about some Stihl cylinders being chromed instead of NiSi coated until Brad's post, but that is unbelievable.



It's been happening for a little while now,and like you said with saws that are on their way out. It's just the way things are with all manufacturing right now, profit over everything.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Jacob J. said:


> Looks familiar....



Aaargh...............you could gain a little area in the corners Jacob!


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> I'm not touching that Will, lol!



LOL, you know you wana touch it just a little!


----------



## splitpost

MCW said:


> Whoops. Maybe I don't really know what to look at  I thought they looked OK.
> 
> I see what you mean now compared to the Mahle setup


 
yeah i ment compared to mahle,but really some of the aftermarket kits are better castings visually


----------



## arborjockey

Jacob J. said:


> They've always pretty much been that way. Very few saws I get have perfectly matched case openings.


how does that work out with the primary compression? do the transfers line up? Im well versed in small engines not chainsaw. now that you have compression of 180+ psi what kind of fuel are you running?:monkey:


----------



## OhioGregg

Andyshine77 said:


> Dan my 362 has a Mahle topend and it's very nice looking from what I can see. The Gilardoni cylinders I've seen are also top of the line, in fact maybe the best of the bunch IMHO.



I would tend to agree with Andre on the Gilardoni cylinder quality. I was impressed with it. Here is a few pics of one for a Poulan Pro Super 380.
LOL, I got a Poulan pic in thread about the Big Two.

















Gregg,


----------



## MCW

the westspartan said:


> It's very interesting to me that the last of the older design, legendary Stihls being made and sold right now seem to all have these sub-par parts. I guess it is promising that the new strato stuff has the high end components, but it is frustrating to think that a company like Stihl would tarnish their reputation like this. I hadn't heard about some Stihl cylinders being chromed instead of NiSi coated until Brad's post, but that is unbelievable.



I don't think Stihl would expect people like us to pull their new saws apart and find out that their quality is dropping 
I'm not sure if their reliabiity can be questioned but at the same time we're still paying the same, or more, for an MS660 with poorer quality internals as we were with Mahle internals...


----------



## MCW

arborjockey said:


> now that you have compression of 180+ psi what kind of fuel are you running?:monkey:



I run all 98 octane (RON) in my saws at 50:1 (apart from my 3120 at 30:1) and have never had an issue with compressions up to 210psi. My Dolmar 5100-S has about 210psi and my two 7900's are 180psi and a tad under 210psi. My 5100-S is stock and untouched and despite running this saw and not even touching the tune for over a year I only found out it's compression a few weeks ago - it's a pig to start cold with no decomp .


----------



## FATGUY

OhioGregg said:


> I would tend to agree with Andre on the Gilardoni cylinder quality. I was impressed with it. Here is a few pics of one for a Poulan Pro Super 380.
> LOL, I got a Poulan pic in thread about the Big Two.
> 
> 
> Gregg,



The Poulan cylinder I did for Mike was one of, if not the truest cylinders I've ever machined the base on. Near perfect (~0.0005" axial runout)


----------



## Stihlofadeal64

nmurph said:


> opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:



+1 for me here!:biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2::camera:


----------



## husq2100

Jacob J. said:


> Gilardoni used to make cylinders for a lot of the big saws- Pioneer P-62, Husky 2100, Partner P100, Olympyk 999. The cylinders they made back then were works of art- near to perfectly symmetrical ports, perfect plating that was rock hard, nicely finished combustion chambers with no casting lines, etc. I almost hated porting those older saws since the cylinders looked so good stock.



what husky 2100 cylinders did they do? how do i tell?

Serg


----------



## Jacob J.

husq2100 said:


> what husky 2100 cylinders did they do? how do i tell?
> 
> Serg



Serg-

They will say Gilardoni on the base. I don't know if there was a specific run or serial number range. I've had two in my hands, I've given both away.


----------



## mtngun

blsnelling said:


> The MS660 has been measured and is apart. Here are some specs on it.
> 
> Compression - 158 psi
> Squish - .019"
> 
> Exhaust - 95° ATDC - 170° Duration
> Transfers - 120° ATDC - 120° Duration
> Intake - 80° BTDC - 160° Duration
> Blowdown - 25°


Brad, thank you once again for sharing your excellent data.  We all learn from threads like this one.

So...... the Stihl has a respectable 158 psi, but ....... that's all you're going to get, without a pop-up. The tight squish gives you no other option.

How did the top of the bore look ? Is there a gouge, or missing plating, at the very top of the bore ? I presume the swept portion of the bore must be good or else it wouldn't be blowing 158 psi ?

I began reading Bell's 2-stroke book last night, and since this thread has a lively discussion on the merits of pop-ups and high compression, I took note of what Bell had to say on compression:

_"Something you must always remember when dealing with two-stroke engines is that increasing the compression ratio will not give a power gain equivalent to that which you would pick up with a four-stroke engine. Heat is the enemy of two-stroke engines and pushing the compression ratio to give an expected 6 % power increase will possibly result in a 1% - 2% rise at the most; the rest will be lost in heat energy and pumping losses. However, at lower engine speeds the cylinder will not be completely filled with fuel/air mixture and the power may jump by 3% - 4% because there is not such a heat loss. *This is, in fact, the real benefit of raising the compression ratio, not to increase maximum power but to pick up mid-range power and possibly widen the power band *."_

In other words, raising compression may not result in faster timed cuts on cookies, which is mostly a function of peak power, but compressons helps with the mid range, making for a more user-friendly work saw.


----------



## FATGUY

mtngun said:


> Brad, thank you once again for sharing your excellent data.  We all learn from threads like this one.
> 
> So...... the Stihl has a respectable 158 psi, but ....... that's all you're going to get, without a pop-up. The tight squish gives you no other option.
> 
> How did the top of the bore look ? Is there a gouge, or missing plating, at the very top of the bore ? I presume the swept portion of the bore must be good or else it wouldn't be blowing 158 psi ?
> 
> I began reading Bell's 2-stroke book last night, and since this thread has a lively discussion on the merits of pop-ups and high compression, I took note of what Bell had to say on compression:
> 
> _"Something you must always remember when dealing with two-stroke engines is that increasing the compression ratio will not give a power gain equivalent to that which you would pick up with a four-stroke engine. Heat is the enemy of two-stroke engines and pushing the compression ratio to give an expected 6 % power increase will possibly result in a 1% - 2% rise at the most; the rest will be lost in heat energy and pumping losses. However, at lower engine speeds the cylinder will not be completely filled with fuel/air mixture and the power may jump by 3% - 4% because there is not such a heat loss. *This is, in fact, the real benefit of raising the compression ratio, not to increase maximum power but to pick up mid-range power and possibly widen the power band *."_
> 
> In other words, raising compression may not result in faster timed cuts on cookies, which is mostly a function of peak power, but compressons helps with the mid range, making for a more user-friendly work saw.



I think that widening the powerband is more beneficial than some may think, particularly in a 60-80cc saw where the size of wood cut with the saw is not constant. Excellent post! Great info, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> I think that widening the powerband is more beneficial than some may think, particularly in a 60-80cc saw where the size of wood cut with the saw is not constant. Excellent post! Great info, thanks for sharing.



This is so, however if you're pushing the saw heat may cause the engine to loose some power as well.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun said:


> Brad, thank you once again for sharing your excellent data.  We all learn from threads like this one.
> 
> So...... the Stihl has a respectable 158 psi, but ....... that's all you're going to get, without a pop-up. The tight squish gives you no other option.
> 
> How did the top of the bore look ? Is there a gouge, or missing plating, at the very top of the bore ? I presume the swept portion of the bore must be good or else it wouldn't be blowing 158 psi ?
> 
> I began reading Bell's 2-stroke book last night, and since this thread has a lively discussion on the merits of pop-ups and high compression, I took note of what Bell had to say on compression:
> 
> _"Something you must always remember when dealing with two-stroke engines is that increasing the compression ratio will not give a power gain equivalent to that which you would pick up with a four-stroke engine. Heat is the enemy of two-stroke engines and pushing the compression ratio to give an expected 6 % power increase will possibly result in a 1% - 2% rise at the most; the rest will be lost in heat energy and pumping losses. However, at lower engine speeds the cylinder will not be completely filled with fuel/air mixture and the power may jump by 3% - 4% because there is not such a heat loss. *This is, in fact, the real benefit of raising the compression ratio, not to increase maximum power but to pick up mid-range power and possibly widen the power band *."_
> 
> In other words, raising compression may not result in faster timed cuts on cookies, which is mostly a function of peak power, but compressons helps with the mid range, making for a more user-friendly work saw.



Good info, it for the most part confirms what I know, and what been told by a few saw builders. 

It looks like this 660 would benefit from a little machine work.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Increasing the midrange should increase the speed at which it cuts cookies due to being able to lean on the saw more and/or have more aggressive chain specs.
Some saws don't sound like they are working any quicker than a stocker, but are cutting quicker.


----------



## wigglesworth

Real high (200 psi) cold cranking compression means nothing more than you have a good ring seal, or a smallish combustion chamber.


----------



## husq2100

since no one anwsered my question regarding pop ups doing more than just raising compression I'll put it another way. Some race saws only have 150 or so psi compression, but have had the heads removed and changed to something with a smaller CC compaired to stock....

im guessing the smaller CC is offering something and that a pop up may be a way of achieving a similar thing.......not just compression..

any thoughts???


----------



## Andyshine77

husq2100 said:


> since no one anwsered my question regarding pop ups doing more than just raising compression I'll put it another way. Some race saws only have 150 or so psi compression, but have had the heads removed and changed to something with a smaller CC compaired to stock....
> 
> im guessing the smaller CC is offering something and that a pop up may be a way of achieving a similar thing.......not just compression..
> 
> any thoughts???



Saws with two piece heads often run alcohol or other fuels, it's a whole different ballgame.


----------



## blsnelling

husq2100 said:


> since no one anwsered my question regarding pop ups doing more than just raising compression I'll put it another way. Some race saws only have 150 or so psi compression, but have had the heads removed and changed to something with a smaller CC compaired to stock....
> 
> im guessing the smaller CC is offering something and that a pop up may be a way of achieving a similar thing.......not just compression..
> 
> any thoughts???



I believe that's so that they can recover compression they loose when raising the exhaust much higher.


----------



## blsnelling

The MS660 is back together and running. Throttle response is extremely snappy. Max RPMs are 14,300. I have it tuned to about 13,900-14,000. 


The 390XP is measured and apart. Here are the specs on it.

Compression 149
Squish .026"
Exhaust 95° ATDC / 170° Duration
Transfers 118° ATDC / 124° Duration
Intake 75° BTDC / 150° Duration
Blowdown 23#°


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The MS660 is back together and running. Throttle response is extremely snappy. Max RPMs are 14,300. I have it tuned to about 13,900-14,000.
> 
> 
> The 390XP is measured and apart. Here are the specs on it.
> 
> Compression 149
> Squish .026"
> Exhaust 95° ATDC / 170° Duration
> Transfers 118° ATDC / 124° Duration
> Intake 75° BTDC / 150° Duration
> Blowdown 23#°


----------



## blsnelling

Yes, it's a Mahle, as are all P&Cs on pro Husky saws.


----------



## blsnelling

Intake

















Exhaust


----------



## blsnelling

Transfers

















Combustion chamber







Looks like the NiSi goes all the way to the top.







Case


----------



## the westspartan

Is that nick just under the exhaust port an issue? Does it go through the NiSi coating?


----------



## MCW

I see a distinct quality difference between the Stihl and Husky castings  Now I know what the earlier guys were talking about in regard to the MS660 pictures


----------



## blsnelling

the westspartan said:


> Is that nick just under the exhaust port an issue? Does it go through the NiSi coating?



I was waiting for that question Fortunately, it was just a spec of lint or dirt.


----------



## little possum

Dont mind me, accidentaly unsubscribed.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

The 390xp looks to be higher quality, like the older Stihls. Probably means nothing though.


----------



## blsnelling

Outlaw5.0 said:


> The 390xp looks to be higher quality, like the older Stihls. Probably means nothing though.



It's still a disappointment, and a turn in the wrong direction.


----------



## blsnelling

I thought I'd show a few pics of my porting layout. As you can see, there's tons of room for port widening, unlike the MS660. The 660 is hugely limited by skirt width and ring end locations. The Husky has almost a full circle skirt and the rings end towards the middle of the intake. 


Here I've marked the tops and bottoms of the intake and transfers, original port width, desired port width, and ring end pins.












Here you see the skirt edges, original port width, desired port width, and port top and bottom.


----------



## FATGUY

Holy-Flow Batman!!


----------



## TommySaw

blsnelling said:


> I thought I'd show a few pics of my porting layout. As you can see, there's tons of room for port widening, unlike the MS660. The 660 is hugely limited by skirt width and ring end locations. The Husky has almost a full circle skirt and the rings end towards the middle of the intake.
> 
> 
> Here I've marked the tops and bottoms of the intake and transfers, original port width, desired port width, and ring end pins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you see the skirt edges, original port width, desired port width, and port top and bottom.



so does the 390 take aswell to porting as the 346 and 372?


----------



## little possum

Brad, may I request a picture of straight through the ports, before and after the porting.
A side by side so to speak.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> I thought I'd show a few pics of my porting layout. As you can see, there's tons of room for port widening, unlike the MS660. The 660 is hugely limited by skirt width and ring end locations. The Husky has almost a full circle skirt and the rings end towards the middle of the intake.
> 
> 
> Here I've marked the tops and bottoms of the intake and transfers, original port width, desired port width, and ring end pins.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you see the skirt edges, original port width, desired port width, and port top and bottom.



So what you're trying to say Brad is that this 390 will be 2lb lighter than stock?


----------



## AUSSIE1

Well the 390 is different than the 385 with 170 ͦ Ex. for starters.


----------



## mtngun

AUSSIE1 said:


> Increasing the midrange should increase the speed at which it cuts cookies due to being able to lean on the saw more and/or have more aggressive chain specs.
> Some saws don't sound like they are working any quicker than a stocker, but are cutting quicker.


A peaky power band may be able to cut just as fast, but only if the operator works hard to keep the saw in its narrow powerband. My old lame 066 BB was like that. It is not missed.



> Real high (200 psi) cold cranking compression means nothing more than you have a good ring seal, or a smallish combustion chamber.


:agree2: Yeah, and who wants a good ring seal or a smallish combustion chamber ?  If that's what I wanted, I'd buy a Dolmar or a Solo, not a new Stihl 660. 

I guess the new popular mod on AS will be installing thicker base gaskets to reduce compression and heat, and then running the detuned saw on top of a mountain where the air is thinner, because compression is a really bad thing.  Let's see those thick base gasket mods, with before and after cut times ! ! ! :hmm3grin2orange:

Brad, you must be a good photographer, because your closeups of the ports are awesome. Keep 'em coming.


----------



## blsnelling

mtngun said:


> Brad, you must be a good photographer, because your closeups of the ports are awesome. Keep 'em coming.


Good equipment helps The problem I have is getting enough depth of field with a large sensor DSLR. So I'm having having to shoot Aperature Priority with a small aperature, and then end up having to use ISO 800 or 1600 to get enough shutter speed so as to not be blurry. That's why they're a little grainy. It's not too bad though considering the ISO is that high. The 7D does real well with high ISO. Otherwise I'd have very slow shutter speeds and have to use a tripod. I'm not going there for this work.


----------



## AUSSIE1

mtngun said:


> A peaky power band may be able to cut just as fast, but only if the operator works hard to keep the saw in its narrow powerband. My old lame 066 BB was like that. It is not missed.
> 
> 
> :agree2: Yeah, and who wants a good ring seal or a smallish combustion chamber ?  If that's what I wanted, I'd buy a Dolmar or a Solo, not a new Stihl 660.
> 
> I guess the new popular mod on AS will be installing thicker base gaskets to reduce compression and heat, and then running the detuned saw on top of a mountain where the air is thinner, because compression is a really bad thing.  Let's see those thick base gasket mods, with before and after cut times ! ! ! :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Brad, you must be a good photographer, because your closeups of the ports are awesome. Keep 'em coming.



I hear ya on the peaky powerband.

Choose your colour for a base gasket.


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> I hear ya on the peaky powerband.
> 
> Choose your colour for a base gasket.



I like the red although the blue also would suit the Makita. With the Dolkita maybe I should have gone Blue and Red?


----------



## Andyshine77

AUSSIE1 said:


> I hear ya on the peaky powerband.
> 
> Choose your colour for a base gasket.



Hay I've seen that stuff at a machine shop before.


----------



## FATGUY

wonder where?


----------



## MCW

Is that real gasket material? Whoops, I thought it was from Al's Origami course he did...


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Is that real gasket material? Whoops, I thought it was from Al's Origami course he did...



Well thanks Matt.  Yeah mate, shim stock!


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Well thanks Matt.  Yeah mate, shim stock!



Heh heh. Never seen it like that before mate. Where do you get it and whats the approximate cost mate? Is that your collection in the photo or did you scoe it off the web somewhere?


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Heh heh. Never seen it like that before mate. Where do you get it and whats the approximate cost mate? Is that your collection in the photo or did you scoe it off the web somewhere?



Just a photo of the web. 
I stumbled across it not long back somewhere. 
Price I don't know but you can get it world wide.

http://www.segaskets.com.au/index.p...art&page=shop.browse&category_id=14&Itemid=54

http://www.practishim.com/


----------



## Thorcw

mtngun said:


> A peaky power band may be able to cut just as fast, but only if the operator works hard to keep the saw in its narrow powerband. My old lame 066 BB was like that. It is not missed.
> 
> 
> :agree2: Yeah, and who wants a good ring seal or a smallish combustion chamber ?  If that's what I wanted, I'd buy a Dolmar or a Solo, not a new Stihl 660.
> 
> I guess the new popular mod on AS will be installing thicker base gaskets to reduce compression and heat, and then running the detuned saw on top of a mountain where the air is thinner, because compression is a really bad thing.  Let's see those thick base gasket mods, with before and after cut times ! ! ! :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Brad, you must be a good photographer, because your closeups of the ports are awesome. Keep 'em coming.



Interesting pic there what dyno did you use or is it really a chainsaw and funny enough the big diesels have about the same torque rise


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> I thought I'd show a few pics of my porting layout. As you can see, there's tons of room for port widening, unlike the MS660. The 660 is hugely limited by skirt width and ring end locations. The Husky has almost a full circle skirt and the rings end towards the middle of the intake.
> 
> 
> Here I've marked the tops and bottoms of the intake and transfers, original port width, desired port width, and ring end pins.
> 
> Here you see the skirt edges, original port width, desired port width, and port top and bottom.



Curious, what's your process of finding and marking the desired port width?


----------



## AUSSIE1

FATGUY said:


> wonder where?



Naaaaaah........I'm sure I didn't see it there!


----------



## mtngun

Thorcw said:


> Interesting pic there what dyno did you use or is it really a chainsaw and funny enough the big diesels have about the same torque rise


Sorry about not explaining the pic. I loaded the pic intending to give a little lecture on typical chainsaw powerbands, but then decided that I, as a relative newbie to chainsaws, am not the right person to give lectures.

But since you asked .......

It's from TW's 460/660 woods port thread. It's TW's computer model of a Stihl 460 before and after the woods port. It is not an actual dyno run, though TW does have a dyno. 

TW's dyno





Interesting observations from the 460 power curve:

-- The stock 460 power is pretty flat from 9000 to 13,000 rpm. That's good -- it should cut equally fast at any speed in that range. 

-- The woods port 460 does not have a flat power band. Still, it makes more power and should cut faster at any RPM above 7000.

-- The woods port 460 peaks near 15,000 rpm. That's not so good, but typical for a ported saw. 

-- The woods port 460 makes _LESS_ power than stock below 7000 rpm. No one cuts below 7000 rpm, so it is of no consequence, but it does show that porting may hurt the low end. That's where higher compression helps, boosting the low end and mid range. I believe TW did do a pop up on this 460, if he hadn't, the loss on the low end might have been even worse.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun again I a agree with you, you have way more experience and knowledge than I. My query is, in a good running saw, does 10-20+ pounds of compression really give you much? My conclusion is probably very little. I'm all for better compression, because within reason it equals more power, I just think you need more than 10-20 pounds before it makes a noticeable difference, but I could be wrong.:dunno:


----------



## AUSSIE1

mtngun said:


> A peaky power band may be able to cut just as fast, but only if the operator works hard to keep the saw in its narrow powerband. My old lame 066 BB was like that. It is not missed.



As long as we aren't confusing a peaky narrow powerband with an increased mid/upper mid.


----------



## TommySaw

TommySaw said:


> so does the 390 take aswell to porting as the 346 and 372?



??


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> Curious, what's your process of finding and marking the desired port width?



The intake and exhaust are both 70% of bore in width.

I make the vertical lines using my dial caliper. It's made such that the end of it will set square on the bottom of the cylinder, and then with opened and the "pointy thingy", lol, sticking out and down into the cylinder, I can make my vertical lines. For the horizontal lines I use one of the rings and push it into the bore with the piston to keep it square. I use a fine tipped Sharpie to make the marks.


----------



## blsnelling

TommySaw said:


> so does the 390 take aswell to porting as the 346 and 372?





TommySaw said:


> ??



We'll find out soon enough. Honestly, I have only ported a couple 385/390s.


----------



## blsnelling

The 390XP is now ported and back together as well. It's turning identical RPMs to the 660. I have it tuned to 13,900-14,000. 14,300 is the max I would cut with it.

Here they are. Neither have seen wood yet. That may not happen until tomorrow. I have obligations tonight.


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----------



## JT78

Sorry to jump the thread back to the middle but I have been away and just got the chance to get on here and start reading this thread and I have to clarify that the 7900 video of little possum running a 7900 at the nc gtg was NOT my saw it was done by someone else. I dont want anybody thinking that I would take credit for someone elses work. I do have a ported 7900 that I did but I know it is not as fast as the saw that Joatmon carried to the nc gtg cause I do know who ported that saw and I am no where near that level of knowledge.


----------



## MCW

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

And the real fun begins


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> And the real fun begins



Yeah baby! Slap some 32" bars on there and hit the hardwood!


----------



## MCW

JT78 said:


> Sorry to jump the thread back to the middle but I have been away and just got the chance to get on here and start reading this thread and I have to clarify that the 7900 video of little possum running a 7900 at the nc gtg was NOT my saw it was done by someone else. I dont want anybody thinking that I would take credit for someone elses work. I do have a ported 7900 that I did but I know it is not as fast as the saw that Joatmon carried to the nc gtg cause I do know who ported that saw and I am no where near that level of knowledge.



Although I'm on the other side of the world and none the wiser kudos for letting people know.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Yeah baby! Slap some 32" bars on there and hit the hardwood!




:smoking:


----------



## JT78

Sorry Brad not trying to jack your thread just had to get that off my chest I dont want any confusion on that matter. 

This has been a wonderful thread and I cant wait to see all three saws run ported I dont think I missed it did I?


----------



## blsnelling

The only problem is that I think it's all much bigger than 32". That presents a problem for measuring cut times.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The only problem is that I think it's all much bigger than 32". That presents a problem for measuring cut times.



Maybe you can cut the sides off mate? Semi slab it so to speak  

You always start posting when I have to go to bed over this side of the world  Then I'm late for work when I wake up and have to read everything!

Worth it though...


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> Maybe you can cut the sides off mate? Semi slab it so to speak


Excellent idea. I'll just noodle off the front and back sides.



> You always start posting when I have to go to bed over this side of the world  Then I'm late for work when I wake up and have to read everything!
> 
> Worth it though...



Sounds like a personal problem:greenchainsaw:


----------



## FATGUY

Matt, I don't think that's uncommon. There's at least one machine shop that would be a lot more productive if it weren't for these threads (actually this site gneral) :monkey:


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> The intake and exhaust are both 70% of bore in width.
> 
> I make the vertical lines using my dial caliper. It's made such that the end of it will set square on the bottom of the cylinder, and then with opened and the "pointy thingy", lol, sticking out and down into the cylinder, I can make my vertical lines. For the horizontal lines I use one of the rings and push it into the bore with the piston to keep it square. I use a fine tipped Sharpie to make the marks.



Thanks!


----------



## mtngun

Andyshine77 said:


> mtngun again I a agree with you, you have way more experience and knowledge than I.


No, I'm strictly a newbie at the saw modding game, and have never raced, and probably never will. You've been playing with saws far longer than me.



> My query is, in a good running saw, does 10-20+ pounds of compression really give you much?


I can tell a difference on my milling saw. I can even tell a difference in how the saw runs on a cold day, when the air is denser, vs. a hot day. Compression gives it more grunt, it doesn't bog as easily, and it's easier to operate.

Anyone who has ever cut wood at high elevation, where the saw loses compression and power, has noticed a difference.

Whether a cookie cutter would see a difference in times, I don't know, perhaps depending on the diameter of the cookie. I give Brad credit for using big rounds in his tests, so the saws have to work hard. 

There are compromises with any mod. A pop-up, or merely tightening the squish, increases intake duration, which may actually hurt the low end. Without a dyno, or at least a good computer model, we're just fumbling around in the dark.

However, TW does have a dyno, and he does have computer models. That's why I posted his power curve for the 460. Unlike me, TW is in a position to say whether a particular mod helps. If a pop-up didn't help, I don't think TW would do it. And what he has said about the 066/660 is that, in the old days, all you had to do was drop the squish, but with the new jugs, a pop-up is the way to go.

158 psi doesn't sound so bad, but that would only blow 135 psi where I cut.  If it were my 660, I would absolutely do a pop-up to get the compression back up.


----------



## Jacob J.

20 psi makes a huge difference when you're cutting under commercial conditions and making a living with a saw. 20 psi might mean the difference of getting another 25-30 trees on the ground in a straight falling job. That translates into $$ when you're cutting stuff that's going 30-40 trees per load and you're getting $125 per load.


----------



## blsnelling

Compression on the 390 is now 155 since tightening the squish. The 660 is still at 158.


----------



## edisto

blsnelling said:


> The intake and exhaust are both 70% of bore in width.



In actual width (chord), or along the circumference of the circle (which is closer to a width of 65% of bore diameter)? I know I've asked you this before, and I'm only asking now because you used to go 70% along the circumference, and your post implies the actual port width is 70% of BD.


----------



## blsnelling

edisto said:


> In actual width (chord), or along the circumference of the circle (which is closer to a width of 65% of bore diameter)? I know I've asked you this before, and I'm only asking now because you used to go 70% along the circumference, and your post implies the actual port width is 70% of BD.



I went a full 70% along the chord.


----------



## edisto

blsnelling said:


> I went a full 70% along the chord.



Go big or go home!


----------



## blsnelling

edisto said:


> Go big or go home!



Oh yeah! Too bad the 660 is so limited by skirt width. I also couldn't widen the 660 transfers like I wanted due to the ring ends out past the edges of the skirt. While both saws are turning the same RPMs, I fully expect the 390 to come out on top because of these porting limitations.


----------



## flushcut

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn: I can't wait to see the end results.


----------



## TRI955

blsnelling said:


> I make the vertical lines using my dial caliper. It's made such that the end of it will set square on the bottom of the cylinder, and then with opened and the "pointy thingy", lol, sticking out and down into the cylinder, I can make my vertical lines.



Can I see some kind of demonstration on how to do this, make the vertical lines that is. Maybe a picture??


----------



## rms61moparman

FATGUY said:


> Matt, I don't think that's uncommon. There's at least one machine shop that would be a lot more productive if it weren't for these threads (actually this site general) :monkey:



Productivity is over-rated!

Especially considering the QUALITY at your fingertips when you employ the "Worlds Greatest Machinist"!!!!!


----------



## Arrowhead

How wide did you go on the transfers? Are you posting pics of the finished port job?


----------



## blsnelling

Arrowhead said:


> How wide did you go on the transfers? Are you posting pics of the finished port job?



Didn't take any. They're probably 50% wider than stock, just the rear ones.


----------



## TommySaw

blsnelling said:


> We'll find out soon enough. Honestly, I have only ported a couple 385/390s.



Well I just got one if you'd like more practice:greenchainsaw:


----------



## MCW

TommySaw said:


> Well I just got one if you'd like more practice:greenchainsaw:




I'd be upset if it's faster than mine though 

Good stuff, you won't be disappointed mate.


----------



## Andyshine77

Jacob J. said:


> 20 psi makes a huge difference when you're cutting under commercial conditions and making a living with a saw. 20 psi might mean the difference of getting another 25-30 trees on the ground in a straight falling job. That translates into $$ when you're cutting stuff that's going 30-40 trees per load and you're getting $125 per load.



Well if you say it works it must work. I haven't seen much gain in the few saw I've seen run, but that's only a small handful of saws.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> Well if you say it works it must work. I haven't seen much gain in the few saw I've seen run, but that's only a small handful of saws.



Hi Andy.
I know it's only one saw and the results are more than likely variable across the board but increasing the compression on my original 7900 just by removing the base gasket made a distinct and noticable improvement to power and throttle response. I did not touch one other thing on the saw, not even the tune.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun said:


> No, I'm strictly a newbie at the saw modding game, and have never raced, and probably never will. You've been playing with saws far longer than me.



Trust me you're way above me here.



mtngun said:


> I can tell a difference on my milling saw. I can even tell a difference in how the saw runs on a cold day, when the air is denser, vs. a hot day. Compression gives it more grunt, it doesn't bog as easily, and it's easier to operate.
> 
> Anyone who has ever cut wood at high elevation, where the saw loses compression and power, has noticed a difference.



I'm not sure how much compression you gain with dens air, but you definitely gain power because denser air = more required fuel, and that means more power. 



mtngun said:


> Whether a cookie cutter would see a difference in times, I don't know, perhaps depending on the diameter of the cookie. I give Brad credit for using big rounds in his tests, so the saws have to work hard.
> 
> There are compromises with any mod. A pop-up, or merely tightening the squish, increases intake duration, which may actually hurt the low end. Without a dyno, or at least a good computer model, we're just fumbling around in the dark.
> 
> However, TW does have a dyno, and he does have computer models. That's why I posted his power curve for the 460. Unlike me, TW is in a position to say whether a particular mod helps. If a pop-up didn't help, I don't think TW would do it. And what he has said about the 066/660 is that, in the old days, all you had to do was drop the squish, but with the new jugs, a pop-up is the way to go.
> 
> 158 psi doesn't sound so bad, but that would only blow 135 psi where I cut.  If it were my 660, I would absolutely do a pop-up to get the compression back up.



:agree2:


----------



## FATGUY

How does port timing affect compression? I assumed that the compression "pulse" you see on a compression gauge happens after the ring(s) are above the ports and the piston and ring(s) have sealed off the ports from the combustion chamber/squish band. Anybody want to bring me up to stupid on this?


----------



## TommySaw

MCW said:


> I'd be upset if it's faster than mine though
> 
> Good stuff, you won't be disappointed mate.



maybe I could get a pop-up in mine and help this thread


----------



## Andyshine77

MCW said:


> Hi Andy.
> I know it's only one saw and the results are more than likely variable across the board but increasing the compression on my original 7900 just by removing the base gasket made a distinct and noticable improvement to power and throttle response. I did not touch one other thing on the saw, not even the tune.



Hi Matt.

I'm not questioning the fact that more compression = more power, I questioning does 10, 15, 20 pounds really make much difference, that's all really. Whan you lower the cylinder you also slightly change port timing, but only a slight amount, but it does help as you now know.


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> How does port timing affect compression? I assumed that the compression "pulse" you see on a compression gauge happens after the ring(s) are above the ports and the piston and ring(s) have sealed off the ports from the combustion chamber/squish band. Anybody want to bring me up to stupid on this?



You're right. But if you raise the roof of the exhaust, you change the volume of air that is trapped, and if you lose the gasket, you compress the same volume of air into a smaller space.


----------



## AUSSIE1

When the piston is moving up, compression doesn't start till the top ring reaches the top of the exhaust port. If you raise the roof of the exhaust port to gain more time, compression starts later giving you less (less area to compress).


----------



## FATGUY

edisto said:


> You're right. But if you raise the roof of the exhaust, you change the volume of air that is trapped.



interesting..... is this to say that compression ratio is no longer a function of the volume of cylinder at BDC and TDC? but rather a function of volume above the exhaust port and volume at TDC?


----------



## blsnelling

edisto said:


> you're right. But if you raise the roof of the exhaust, you change the volume of air that is trapped, and if you lose the gasket, you compress the same volume of air into a smaller space.



+1


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> interesting..... is this to say that compression ratio is no longer a function of the volume of cylinder at BDC and TDC? but rather a function of volume above the exhaust port and volume at TDC?



All those silly holes in 2-strokes break up the relationship between displacement and compression somewhat. There are 2 different types of "compression ratio" for 2-strokes, but the only one that has a lot of meaning is the trapped volume.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> interesting..... is this to say that compression ratio is no longer a function of the volume of cylinder at BDC and TDC? but rather a function of volume above the exhaust port and volume at TDC?



You're thinking 4-strokes here, where the valves are closed for the complete compression stroke of the piston. The cylinder is wide open on a 2-stroke until the exhaust port closes.


----------



## Andyshine77

I was talking with Mike about this the other day. My question is how do you come up with the compression ratio in 2 smoker? Is it just volume above exhaust port and psi?


----------



## FATGUY

OK, so here's another couple I'm going to lob out there. Why does it take X number of "pulls" to get the compression on a saw? Surely the volume of the hose can't be responsible for it, can it? Secondly, has anyone ever figured out if either compression or compression ratio can mathematicaly be derived from one another?


----------



## edisto

Dang! The answers are flying quickly! It's an AS intervention for someone falling off the 4-stroke wagon!

Nik, fill a couple of coolers full of beer, put 'em in your truck, and I'll do the same. If we leave at the same time, I'll be at the end of your block in 17 hours, and so will you, and we can sort this out in a proper manner.


----------



## FATGUY

I don't mean to hijack this thread, I just look down and see so many knowledgeable members here....


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> OK, so here's another couple I'm going to lob out there. Why does it take X number of "pulls" to get the compression on a saw? Surely the volume of the hose can't be responsible for it, can it?



Yes, that's why you must have a Schrader valve on the end of the hose. That's also why it takes more pulls on my Snap-On guage with the long hose it has.


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> OK, so here's another couple I'm going to lob out there. Why does it take X number of "pulls" to get the compression on a saw? Surely the volume of the hose can't be responsible for it, can it? Secondly, has anyone ever figured out if either compression or compression ratio can mathematicaly be derived from one another?



To the first, it simply is the small size of the cylinder.

To the second, you can derive theoretical compression from the trapped volume compression ratio (but not from the conventional measurement, which is why it is useless), but actual compression will always be less than that depending on the quality of the seal.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> I don't mean to hijack this thread, I just look down and see so many knowledgeable members here....



It's all good


----------



## FATGUY

edisto said:


> Dang! The answers are flying quickly! It's an AS intervention for someone falling off the 4-stroke wagon!
> 
> Nik, fill a couple of coolers full of beer, put 'em in your truck, and I'll do the same. If we leave at the same time, I'll be at the end of your block in 17 hours, and so will you, and we can sort this out in a proper manner.



so if two trains leave at the same time, one is blue oval powered, the other is bowtie powered, we're gonna sit on our tailgates at the end of my street and drink beer? I love it. I wish I would have taken this kind of hands on approach while I was in school.....Oh wait, I did...


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> so if two trains leave at the same time, one is blue oval powered, the other is bowtie powered, we're gonna sit on our tailgates at the end of my street and drink beer? I love it. I wish I would have taken this kind of hands on approach while I was in school.....Oh wait, I did...



Gotta love the new math.


----------



## Taxmantoo

blsnelling said:


> So the 390 and 660 PHO are really only 1 oz apart then.



Um, the Husky is 5oz lighter when holding 4oz more oil, so I'd say the Husky is 9oz lighter. 



StihlyinEly said:


> You need a hot babe from the Stihl calendar.



Well, since it's May...(I'm not displaying the pics because I don't want to clutter the thread with huge calendar scans)


----------



## Jacob J.

taxmantoo said:


> Well, since it's May...(I'm not displaying the pics because I don't want to clutter the thread with huge calendar scans)



I like those older calenders better...the girls seem "classier"...


----------



## mtngun

Andyshine77 said:


> My question is how do you come up with the compression ratio in 2 smoker? Is it just volume above exhaust port and psi?


Depends on who you are talking to.

Uncorrected compression ratio (UCCR) is calculated just like a 4-stroke, volume at BDC divided by volume at TDC. 

Corrected (or effective, or actual, or trapped, or true) compression ratio (CCR) only counts the swept volume above the exhaust port. According to A. Graham Bell, the Japanese prefer to use the corrected compression ratio.

Says Bell _*"I prefer ..... the old uncorrected figures which make sense to me, even if they don't make sense to the Japanese. If there were any basis to the Japanese system we should be able to race a PE175 in the 100cc class as its effective displacement is only 94cc, but try getting any motorcycling or karting organization to swallow that one ! What I would really like to know is why isn't the PE175 called a PE100 ?*_"

Bell then points out that a tuned pipe will force any fuel/air charge which has escaped into the exhaust port back up to the port and into the cylinder. _"*Therefore the 72cc of fuel/air mix that appears to be lost out of the PE175's exhaust is not really lost, it is just temporarily misplaced.*"_

When Bell talks about high compression causing problems with heat, detonation, and pumping losses, he is talking about 13:1 - 15:1 compression ratios (UCCR) used on racing bikes. 

The typical Stihl is only 8:1 UCCR, maybe 9:1 if you are lucky. 

Dolmars and Solos would appear to have 10:1 - 11:1 UCCR, judging by the compression data AS members have posted.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun said:


> Depends on who you are talking to.
> 
> Uncorrected compression ratio (UCCR) is calculated just like a 4-stroke, volume at BDC divided by volume at TDC.
> 
> Corrected (or effective, or actual, or trapped, or true) compression ratio (CCR) only counts the swept volume above the exhaust port. According to A. Graham Bell, the Japanese prefer to use the corrected compression ratio.
> 
> Says Bell _*"I prefer ..... the old uncorrected figures which make sense to me, even if they don't make sense to the Japanese. If there were any basis to the Japanese system we should be able to race a PE175 in the 100cc class as its effective displacement is only 94cc, but try getting any motorcycling or karting organization to swallow that one ! What I would really like to know is why isn't the PE175 called a PE100 ?*_"
> 
> Bell then points out that a tuned pipe will force any fuel/air charge which has escaped into the exhaust port back up to the port and into the cylinder. _"*Therefore the 72cc of fuel/air mix that appears to be lost out of the PE175's exhaust is not really lost, it is just temporarily misplaced.*"_
> 
> When Bell talks about high compression causing problems with heat, detonation, and pumping losses, he is talking about 13:1 - 15:1 compression ratios (UCCR) used on racing bikes.
> 
> The typical Stihl is only 8:1 UCCR, maybe 9:1 if you are lucky.
> 
> Dolmars and Solos would appear to have 10:1 - 11:1 UCCR, judging by the compression data AS members have posted.



Thanks for the info. 

So it looks like most Dolmars would run better on 90+ octane pump fuel, and the Sthils and most other saws with under 10:1 compression will run best on 89 octane. At least that's how I see it with 4 stroke engines.

Now how much does oil drop octane? 32:1 - 40:1 - 50:1


----------



## FATGUY

awesome, awesome info Mntgn!


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> So it looks like most Dolmars would run better on 90+ octane pump fuel, and the Sthils and most other saws with under 10:1 compression will run best on 89 octane. At least that's how I see it with 4 stroke engines.
> 
> Now how much does oil drop octane? 32:1 - 40:1 - 50:1





FATGUY said:


> awesome, awesome info Mntgn!



I wouldn't trust him, he looks like a criminal in his avatar 
Nah great info mate, very interesting.


----------



## blsnelling

Plans are to test the saws tonight. The challenge is going to be prepping the log. These are Oak logs in the 40" diameter ball park. I'm going to have to slab the sides in order to be able to reach through with my 32" bar. I'll also have to either jack and elevate the log, or slab the bottom off as well. I'll be using my 084 for the sides, but will opt for something much lighter on the horizontal bottom cut. I'm not looking forward to this part.

It will be quite hot and somewhat humid for this test. Temps will be about 85 with about 50% humidity.

All saws will be wearing 8-pin rims and pulling the same 32" Granberg-filed Stihl RSC chain.

Along with the 7901, 390, and 660, I plan to test my 066 "tractor saw". I'm real curious how it will compare. There might be another saw or two thrown in the mix as well. Here's to hoping we don't have thunderstorms this evening


----------



## Winn R

I love this place.


----------



## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> Plans are to test the saws tonight. The challenge is going to be prepping the log. These are Oak logs in the 40" diameter ball park. I'm going to have to slab the sides in order to be able to reach through with my 32" bar. I'll also have to either jack and elevate the log, or slab the bottom off as well. I'll be using my 084 for the sides, but will opt for something much lighter on the horizontal bottom cut. I'm not looking forward to this part.
> 
> It will be quite hot and somewhat humid for this test. Temps will be about 85 with about 50% humidity.
> 
> All saws will be wearing 8-pin rims and pulling the same 32" Granberg-filed Stihl RSC chain.
> 
> Along with the 7901, 390, and 660, I plan to test my 066 "tractor saw". I'm real curious how it will compare. There might be another saw or two thrown in the mix as well. Here's to hoping we don't have thunderstorms this evening



looks like we're good on our end, Andre's on his way down to the shop.


----------



## rms61moparman

There you beotches go having loads of fun again without me!!!


Mike


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Plans are to test the saws tonight. The challenge is going to be prepping the log. These are Oak logs in the 40" diameter ball park. I'm going to have to slab the sides in order to be able to reach through with my 32" bar. I'll also have to either jack and elevate the log, or slab the bottom off as well. I'll be using my 084 for the sides, but will opt for something much lighter on the horizontal bottom cut. I'm not looking forward to this part.



Good stuff Brad. Not sure if you can get a vehicle or winch into where these logs are but I've found that they are easier to wrap a strap or rope around if possible (like a yo-yo) then tow them (to the side so they roll, not tow them lengthways) onto some other logs to get them off the ground. I've done that before at my place and it works well. Only problem is you can sometimes get dirt/mud in the bark. I've also strung rope/cable through adjacent trees then towed logs off the ground. May not be possible here though. Good luck and looking forward to the grand comparo


----------



## SawTroll

blsnelling said:


> So the 390 and 660 PHO are really only 1 oz apart then.



I have been out for close to a week, so I don't know what has been posted later - but you got the maths wrong!

From the posted numbers, the difference is 9.0 oz, not 1 oz!


----------



## MCW

SawTroll said:


> I have been out for close to a week, so I don't know what has been posted later - but you got the maths wrong!
> 
> From the posted numbers, the difference is 9.0 oz, not 1 oz!



Aren't you a metric man Sawtroll? 
I think you meant to say the 390XP is 252 grams lighter than the 660, or just over a pound


----------



## blsnelling

The saws have been run, but the results are not in. I haven't had a chance to do anything with the vids yet. That's going to take a good while.

Here's the cant I made. It measures 29" wide x 17" tall x 48" long. I wanted to use the entire length of the 32" bar, minus clearance for the dawgs. This is the first time I ever tried anything like this. Getting the bottom slab out was a real pain!


----------



## woodgrenade

Wow, i'd say you put a fair amount of work into making that cant.


----------



## rms61moparman

Well apparently it wasn't a blowout, or you would know without vids!!!



Mike


----------



## nmurph

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## SawTroll

MCW said:


> Aren't you a metric man Sawtroll?
> I think you meant to say the 390XP is 252 grams lighter than the 660, or just over a pound



Not a pound, but otherwise you are right, according to the posted info!

5.2 + 3.8 = 9.0

The maths originally was turned upside down (regarding the 3.8 oz difference), resulting in the 1 oz statement....


----------



## MCW

SawTroll said:


> Not a pound, but otherwise you are right, according to the posted info!
> 
> 5.2 + 3.8 = 9.0



:censored: You're right. 454 grams to a pound...
What was I thinking...


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The saws have been run, but the results are not in. I haven't had a chance to do anything with the vids yet. That's going to take a good while.
> 
> Here's the cant I made. It measures 29" wide x 17" tall x 48" long. I wanted to use the entire length of the 32" bar, minus clearance for the dawgs. This is the first time I ever tried anything like this. Getting the bottom slab out was a real pain!



Good job Brad just watch that bloke in the background though - he'll knock your camera off and stick it on eBay when you're not looking...


----------



## FATGUY

rms61moparman said:


> There you beotches go having loads of fun again without me!!!
> 
> 
> Mike





rms61moparman said:


> Well apparently it wasn't a blowout, or you would know without vids!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Mike



move closer Mikey....

no blow out, all saws ran well. very well.


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Good job Brad just watch that bloke in the background though - he'll knock your camera off and stick it on eBay when you're not looking...



careful now Matt, you don't want to piss of "the beast"


----------



## blsnelling

woodgrenade said:


> Wow, i'd say you put a fair amount of work into making that cant.



That cant was a TON of work, especially the bottom cut. Then getting the slab out from under it was a huge challenge.


----------



## Troy G

Nice wood!!!

I am hoping this thread reaffirms what Jasha already posted sometime ago.

I went with a 390XP after reading all the quality issue threads with Stihl and for the better anti-vibe. I say all this having never run a 660 nor ever really having a need to run anything much bigger than a 24" bar.


----------



## blsnelling

Overall, I'm not pleased with my execution of the testing. The chain touched dirt before the 7901 had a chance to cut. So we switched to another chain that cut better yet. So we had to recut with all the saws. Then I didn't get a good max load cut with the 660. The 7901 cut was basically in the dark. Take it for what it's worth. Bottom line, the 390 and 660 are neck and neck. The fastest cut time went to the 390 only because I didn't get a good max load cut with the 660. It was that cut with the 390 that put it on top. The 7901 wasn't far behind at all either. The 390 and 660 are significantly stronger. Between the 390 and 660, the 660 has a lot more grunt. You cant see that in the vids, but it's there when you operate them. By no means does that mean the 390 is lacking in torque. It's just that the 660 won't stop for anything. You'd just have to run them. Anyway, here's the vid.

All saws were wearing 8-pin rims.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_2HL4d2K8g&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_2HL4d2K8g&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## blsnelling

Troy G said:


> Nice wood!!!
> 
> I am hoping this thread reaffirms what Jasha already posted sometime ago.
> 
> I went with a 390XP after reading all the quality issue threads with Stihl and for the better anti-vibe. I say all this having never run a 660 nor ever really having a need to run anything much bigger than a 24" bar.



I'd expect a ported 390 to be a hair faster than a 660 in that size wood, but the 660 is definately torquier, making it more user friendly IMHO. They're both AWESOME saws.


----------



## SawTroll

MCW said:


> :censored: You're right. 454 grams to a pound...
> What was I thinking...



I am not saying that it makes a big difference, but 9 oz isn't the same as 1 oz, when we get down to powerhead weight! :greenchainsaw:


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> careful now Matt, you don't want to piss of "the beast"



Hey just let me know when Andy buys an airline ticket to Australia, then I'll be worried 



blsnelling said:


> That cant was a TON of work, especially the bottom cut. Then getting the slab out from under it was a huge challenge.



Looks very difficult mate. Good work.

Hey you must know when I'm at work and can't view Youtube. I'll be all over that video like a fat kid on a cupcake when I get home


----------



## woodgrenade

How did the tractor saw compare? And........ more testing tomorrow??


----------



## blsnelling

woodgrenade said:


> How did the tractor saw compare? And........ more testing tomorrow??



.3 seconds faster with the tractor saw. Very little difference.


----------



## Andyshine77

[/QUOTE]

Hahaha I don't even know what to say about this pick, I'm not sure if I look cool, or more like a thespian.


----------



## wigglesworth

Andyshine77 said:


> Hahaha I don't even know what to say about this pick, I'm not sure if I look cool, or more like a thespian.



I know a thespian, she is one heck of an arm wrestler.....


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


>



Hahaha I don't even know what to say about this pick, I'm not sure if I look cool, or more like a thespian. [/QUOTE]

I can read your mind Andy.

"Brad, can you stop taking photos and help with this damn log!!!"


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> I'd expect a ported 390 to be a hair faster than a 660 in that size wood, but the 660 is definately torquier, making it more user friendly IMHO. They're both AWESOME saws.



The 660 definitely had more low end power, no question about it. All of the saws ran and performed flawlessly. Even with the blue 7900 cutting a bit slower, IMHO it's still the most impressive saw out of the bunch. This is not to take anything away from the other saws whatsoever, in the bigger logs there is no replacement for displacement.


----------



## Andyshine77

MCW said:


> Hahaha I don't even know what to say about this pick, I'm not sure if I look cool, or more like a thespian.



I can read your mind Andy.

"Brad, can you stop taking photos and help with this damn log!!!"[/QUOTE]

Actually Brad did all the work before me and Nik arrived. GO Brad! I'm not sure what I was doing or looking at, but it's a funny pic nevertheless.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> I'm not sure what I was doing or looking at, but it's a funny pic nevertheless.



Looks to me like you're mentally developing a cure for cancer with the look on your face and that pose


----------



## AUSSIE1

The testing should satisfy all.
If you were to retest, the out come basically wouldn't be much different and considering there can be differences between saws and builders you have achieved what was needed to be achieved. Anyone not happy with the out come is only being picky. The 7901 has done awesome with a cc disadvantage.


----------



## MCW

Thats right Al. 
I'd like to thank all the guys involved, especially Brad. There may be more vids from Brad, maybe not, but there will be from me when they arrive in Australia. I think the 7901 did extremely well too. A 9-13cc gap is a fair bit to catch up on. I can't wait to try these saws out in a tree felling scenario - I still think the 660 will be the saw getting sold but time will tell.
I'm guessing the saw videos and testing actually took more time than the saw builds did 
After seeing your last vid Brad I also feel bad about you using a log like that to test on - that is some beautiful wood mate 
Thanks again Brad - I think this has been a pretty solid thread and should put a few guys minds at rest if they are looking at a 390XP but wondering if it's too far off the pace of an MS660 (or a 395XP for that matter). Remember the weight savings on the 390 too - and the cost. The 390XP was just over USD$100 cheaper than the MS660 and with quite obviously nicer internals.


----------



## AUSSIE1

The 660 and 395 has been the usual comparison so the 390 has done well also to be up there with those two.

Confirms the belief that a ported 390 is capable of fitting the "big saw" requirement.


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Looks to me like you're mentally developing a cure for cancer with the look on your face and that pose



looks to me like the Mexican food he had the night before....


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> looks to me like the Mexican food he had the night before....



That was next on my list Nik 

Hey also I just got a new set of 5 point Pro Felling spikes, _OK dawgs_, in from Baileys to fit my 390XPG made by Pro Safety Inc.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17166&catID=257

These things are insane and dwarf the spikes on my 3120. The saw now sits on a lean as they lift it up by over an inch more than standard. They look as tough as hell, are needle sharp, very high quality, but nearly look too big and cumbersome to be functional.
Have any of you guys had any experience with them? I think I may have overdone it - I can't believe they even fit a 365XP, now that would be mental asylum stuff...


----------



## 2000ssm6

You can hear in the 390's tone that it doesn't have the grunt of the 660. Replace the 390 with a 395 and watch the tables turn. All of them ran good though. Good comparison!


----------



## forestryworks

MCW said:


> That was next on my list Nik
> 
> Hey also I just got a new set of 5 point Pro Felling spikes, _OK dawgs_, in from Baileys to fit my 390XPG made by Pro Safety Inc.
> 
> http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17166&catID=257
> 
> These things are insane and dwarf the spikes on my 3120. The saw now sits on a lean as they lift it up by over an inch more than standard. They look as tough as hell, are needle sharp, very high quality, but nearly look too big and cumbersome to be functional.
> Have any of you guys had any experience with them? I think I may have overdone it - I can't believe they even fit a 365XP, now that would be mental asylum stuff...



Those 5pt. pro-safety dogs aren't worth the money you pay for them. They bite way too hard, worthless for any falling work.


----------



## gink595

forestryworks said:


> Those 5pt. pro-safety dogs aren't worth the money you pay for them. They bite way too hard, worthless for any falling work.



I agree, They look the buisness but are not worth a :censored:


----------



## MCW

forestryworks said:


> Those 5pt. pro-safety dogs aren't worth the money you pay for them. They bite way too hard, worthless for any falling work.





gink595 said:


> I agree, They look the buisness but are not worth a :censored:



Thanks for the replies guys - thats what I thought  They are just too monstrous. I'll give them a run but I think both you guys will be right - they are just stupidly large and I never realised just how big until they arrived. I might have to grind them down a tad...

Here are some photos compared to the stock spikes. Big difference...


----------



## indiansprings

Great post Brad! I cannot believe the work you put into that cant. That was a nice job in itself. If the heat and humidity there is anything like it is here right now you prolly lost five lbs of sweat just preparing the log.
Great video, the 660 just sounds stronger than the other two saws. 
How did the Stihl cylinder clean up? Just guessing what would you say the gain would be over a stock 660? It's got me wanting to jerk the jug off of mine.lol


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> I'm guessing the saw videos and testing actually took more time than the saw builds did


Probably



> The 390XP was just over USD$100 cheaper than the MS660 and with quite obviously nicer internals.


I paid $190 less for the 390. It was $875 and the 660 $1065. That's out the door prices.



AUSSIE1 said:


> The 660 and 395 has been the usual comparison so the 390 has done well also to be up there with those two.
> 
> Confirms the belief that a ported 390 is capable of fitting the "big saw" requirement.


Absolutely!



MCW said:


> Hey also I just got a new set of 5 point Pro Felling spikes, _OK dawgs_, in from Baileys to fit my 390XPG made by Pro Safety Inc.





forestryworks said:


> Those 5pt. pro-safety dogs aren't worth the money you pay for them. They bite way too hard, worthless for any falling work.


I'll be installing a set of the factory big dawgs on this saw, just like the ones you had on your other 390.



indiansprings said:


> Great post Brad! I cannot believe the work you put into that cant. That was a nice job in itself. If the heat and humidity there is anything like it is here right now you prolly lost five lbs of sweat just preparing the log.


You could have wrung my clothes out. I did my headband several times.



> How did the Stihl cylinder clean up? Just guessing what would you say the gain would be over a stock 660? It's got me wanting to jerk the jug off of mine.lol


Nearly every bit of the casting flaws you saw is gone. That all gets cleaned up with the port work.


----------



## blsnelling

I should take a picture of the bed of my truck. It was sprinkling rain about the whole time we were out there. Add all the wood dust to that, and everything's a *mess!* Then with all the bar and chain swapping, there are bars and chains laying all over. I just threw everything in the truck and headed home. I didn't touch a thing when I got home. I try to always clean everything up ASAP, but not last night. They don't look like new saws right now, lol. A little compressed air and they'll be good to go


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> I paid $190 less for the 390. It was $875 and the 660 $1065. That's out the door prices.



Whoops, even further apart in the money stakes than I thought. Win to the Husky even more 



blsnelling said:


> I'll be installing a set of the factory big dawgs on this saw, just like the ones you had on your other 390.



Hey reason I got these dogs Brad was to actually cut and weld them to my 7900's stock spikes. When I opened the parcel they were WAY bigger than I thought so fitted them to the XPG. They would look even stupider on a 7900.


----------



## FATGUY

nah, they look right at home with a little dust on 'em. When we got them out of the truck they looked like they just came from the daler. Oh wait, they did....


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Whoops, even further aprt in the monet stakes than I thought. Win to the Husky even more
> 
> 
> 
> Hey reason I got these dogs Brad was to actually cut and weld them to my 7900's stock spikes. When I opened the parcel they were WAY bigger than I thought so fitted them to the XPG. They would look even stupider on a 7900.



I think you'll like how your 7901 spikes look....


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> I think you'll like how your 7901 spikes look....



He doesn't know about that I'll have to get them put back on and take a pic.


----------



## FATGUY

blsnelling said:


> He doesn't know about that I'll have to get them put back on and take a pic.



du-oh! :monkey:
sorry


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> du-oh! :monkey:
> sorry



No problem. Now we can just leave Matt hanging wondering what we're talking about:greenchainsaw:


----------



## blsnelling

Looks like it's my saws that are so filthy. They sat around while we ran yours


----------



## mtngun

Excellent test, Brad. That you were able to get nice power out of the not-so-great Stihl jug is a testament to your porting skills.

Maybe you already posted this somewhere -- it's been a long, meandering, thread -- but what were the final compression & port timing specs on the two big saws ?

Ya know, I look at that big log you used for testing and think "it's a shame not to mill that into lumber." I'm surprised you didn't use your 084 to knock out a cant ?


----------



## blsnelling

mtngun said:


> Excellent test, Brad. That you were able to get nice power out of the not-so-great Stihl jug is a testament to your porting skills.
> 
> Maybe you already posted this somewhere -- it's been a long, meandering, thread -- but what were the final compression & port timing specs on the two big saws ?
> 
> Ya know, I look at that big log you used for testing and think "it's a shame not to mill that into lumber." I'm surprised you didn't use your 084 to knock out a cant ?



Compression is somewhere back in the thread. I'm thinking they were 158/160? The Stihl being the 160.

Exhaust and transfer timing didn't change. I did lower the intakes a little.

I did use the 084 with 50" bar to slab the sides. Unfortunately, I pinched the rails on that bar a little too much on it when I refurbed it, and when it gets hot, it binds the chain. I'm going to have to work on it some more. I used my new 440 to slab the top and bottom. There's no way I could have handles that 084 for all of that.


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> I think you'll like how your 7901 spikes look....





blsnelling said:


> He doesn't know about that I'll have to get them put back on and take a pic.





FATGUY said:


> du-oh! :monkey:
> sorry





blsnelling said:


> No problem. Now we can just leave Matt hanging wondering what we're talking about:greenchainsaw:





Hmmmm.....


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> Hmmmm.....



I'll post a pic once I get them reinstalled


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Looks like it's my saws that are so filthy. They sat around while we ran yours



Watcha on about? Isn't that how they're meant to look? 

Rain and woodchips, my favourite...not...


----------



## FATGUY

don't get too excited, it's really nothing.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> don't get too excited, it's really nothing.



B...b...b...bad to the bone Pics of the "Black Mak" coming up


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Watcha on about? Isn't that how they're meant to look?
> 
> *Rain* and woodchips, my favourite...not...



there are few things I hate more than rain and humidity.... You never get rain when you want it and always do when you don't. The humidity, well that just makes for suffering. It should rain for 2 or 3 hours between 3:00 and 6:00 am 3 or 4 times a week. After that, I want a low dewpoint and sunny skies.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> I'll post a pic once I get them reinstalled



I noticed they went missing in action in the videos


----------



## mdavlee

Nice comparison. I'm glad you took time to do it. Just wish you had a 394/5 to add to the mix.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Nice comparison. I'm glad you took time to do it. Just wish you had a 394/5 to add to the mix.



Yeah in hindsight it would have been great to include a 395XP. Ah well. If I win the lottery I'll do it all again with about 10 saws


----------



## mdavlee

Well hurry up and win. That's what I'm hoping for myself. I just have to remember to play.


----------



## blsnelling

The finish is black oxide. Hind sight's 20/20. I should have had him do the dawg bolts and bar nuts as well. 

This should make you a good limbing saw Matt:clap. 20" bar and 8-pin rim.


I'm nicknaming it *"Black Mak"*


----------



## wigglesworth

blsnelling said:


> The finish is black oxide. Hind sight's 20/20. I should have had him do the dawg bolts and bar nuts as well.
> 
> This should make you a good limbing saw Matt:clap. 20" bar and 8-pin rim.



The force is with this one.....


----------



## blsnelling

wigglesworth said:


> The force is with this one.....



Very fitting with the HD filter setup


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The finish is black oxide. Hind sight's 20/20. I should have had him do the dawg bolts and bar nuts as well.
> 
> This should make you a good limbing saw Matt:clap. 20" bar and 8-pin rim.
> 
> 
> I'm nicknaming it *"Black Mak"*



I've got a tear in my eye 

Someone even managed to include Darth Vader in it too...

Thanks guys...

Sniff.

Sniff 

That looks pretty trick. Like a "sleeper" saw.


----------



## MostShady1

blsnelling said:


> The finish is black oxide. Hind sight's 20/20. I should have had him do the dawg bolts and bar nuts as well.
> 
> This should make you a good limbing saw Matt:clap. 20" bar and 8-pin rim.
> 
> 
> I'm nicknaming it *"Black Mak"*




:love1:


----------



## the westspartan

That black oxide finish is SLICK looking! Nice touch.


----------



## Andyshine77

That's the first time I've seen them reinstalled, lets just say my EHP7900 is next.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Considering the price, the 390xp the real deal.


----------



## AUSSIE1

2000ssm6 said:


> You can hear in the 390's tone that it doesn't have the grunt of the 660. Replace the 390 with a 395 and watch the tables turn. All of them ran good though. Good comparison!





indiansprings said:


> Great video, the 660 just sounds stronger than the other two saws.



I had to go back and watch for a couple of times cause initially I didn't notice any difference and don't think the 390 is doing it any harder. With the second cuts, the 390 actually cut quicker than the 660.


----------



## Anthony_Va.

forestryworks said:


> Those 5pt. pro-safety dogs aren't worth the money you pay for them. They bite way too hard, worthless for any falling work.



If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch. :monkey:

Sorry, had to.

I agree, they look too big, but they might work good. I'd at least give em a try.

I like that makita all tricked out in the black. Would like to be the proud owner of that saw. 

awesome comparisons!!! I have enjoyed this thread to the fullest!!!!!


----------



## rahtreelimbs

Heck............I thought this was a 3 way JOHNSON size off!!!:jawdrop:


----------



## Evan

holy chit, what was the verdict. way to much reading for me. 30 pages you gota be finnnnnnnnng kidding me


----------



## Andyshine77

Evan said:


> holy chit, what was the verdict. way to much reading for me. 30 pages you gota be finnnnnnnnng kidding me



Buy a 7900. If you need anything bigger get a 084/880 or a 3120.


----------



## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> Buy a 7900. If you need anything bigger get a 084/880 or a 3120.



Or better yet, just get them all then you can decide!


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> Or better yet, just get them all then you can decide!



I did, and I have.


----------



## parrisw

Andyshine77 said:


> I did, and I have.



Sweet! Now maybe Evan will do the same.


----------



## Andyshine77

parrisw said:


> Sweet! Now maybe Evan will do the same.



Hahaha


----------



## husq2100

Solo 681 :greenchainsaw:


----------



## Andyshine77

husq2100 said:


> Solo 681 :greenchainsaw:



Stock no doubt about they are a little bit stronger, but with the HD filter kit the 7900 is hard to beat.


----------



## mdavlee

It only took 400 posts to get someone to say 681. Just kidding. There is always saws that someone will want in these comparisons. I would have liked to see a 395 or maybe the 372 he just did for kicks also.


----------



## Andyshine77

mdavlee said:


> It only took 400 posts to get someone to say 681. Just kidding. There is always saws that someone will want in these comparisons. I would have liked to see a 395 or maybe the 372 he just did for kicks also.



I almost ran my 372 but we simply ran out of daylight and time, I honestly think the chain speed of the 372 with a 7 pin would be close to the other saws. The 372 is a strong saw, but it simply doesn't have the low end of the other saws to run an 8 pin in this size and type of wood.


----------



## mdavlee

Yeah I don't think any of the 70cc saws besides a 7900 really have the grunt to pull a 8 pin with any bar over 24" in my heavy hands.


----------



## TommySaw

mdavlee said:


> Yeah I don't think any of the 70cc saws besides a 7900 really have the grunt to pull a 8 pin with any bar over 24" in my heavy hands.



calling a 7900 a 70cc saw is like saying a 390 is an 80cc saw


----------



## MCW

TommySaw said:


> calling a 7900 a 70cc saw is like saying a 390 is an 80cc saw



Technically he is correct and technically you are correct with the 390XP  But I know what you mean. Upper 70cc maybe for the 7900?


----------



## gink595

TommySaw said:


> calling a 7900 a 70cc saw is like saying a 390 is an 80cc saw




Well it is a 79cc saw I don't know what else you could call it besides a 70cc class saw. 

If you have 79.00 dollars and what your trying to buy costs 80.00 at the end of the day you still only have 79.00 dollars...same concept, if it isn't 80+cc it isn't a 80cc saw


----------



## mdavlee

gink595 said:


> Well it is a 79cc saw I don't know what else you could call it besides a 70cc class saw.
> 
> If you have 79.00 dollars and what your trying to buy costs 80.00 at the end of the day you still only have 79.00 dollars...same concept, if it isn't 80+cc it isn't a 80cc saw



Yeah it's closer to the 372xpw and 460 stihl than it is a 385 or ms650 is why I call it a 70cc saw. The 390 is sort of a 90cc saw. It's all relative I guess.


----------



## rms61moparman

I usually call it an 80cc, since it is at the top of the 70cc class and runs like a 90.

Call it what you want, it is still one heck of a saw!
Especially some of the more "Infamous" ones!


Mike


----------



## gink595

rms61moparman said:


> I usually call it an 80cc, since it is at the top of the 70cc class and runs like a 90.
> 
> Call it what you want, it is still one heck of a saw!
> Especially some of the more "Infamous" ones!
> 
> 
> Mike



:agree2:Well the "Infamous" ones run much better than a 90cc saw:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Erick

Okay I want my money back then... because in all of the saw comparisons around here the 45cc OE346 and the 49cc 026/MS260 are both in the "50cc class". The 56cc 357, the 59cc 359, and the 59cc MS361 and MS362 are all considered "60cc saws"

How did the 7900 get a by on this one???? :dunno:

Don't get me wrong it's a very nice saw and it owns the 70cc class for box stock performance.... but then again an "80cc class" saw should.


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> Okay I want my money back then... because in all of the saw comparisons around here the 45cc OE346 and the 49cc 026/MS260 are both in the "50cc class". The 56cc 357, the 59cc 359, and the 59cc MS361 and MS362 are all considered "60cc saws"
> 
> How did the 7900 get a by on this one???? :dunno:
> 
> Don't get me wrong it's a very nice saw and it owns the 70cc class for box stock performance.... but then again an "80cc class" saw should.



No matter how you slice it, 79 does not make 80 and 80 doesn't make a 79, I see this as plain as day. A 20 year isn't legaly able to drink in a bar becasue he is close to 21 doesn't matter if it is the day before.

As far as your 346/260 comparison goes they all have to race in the 3 cube class.The 7900 is in the 5 cube class becasue it is under the 80cc mark which makes it's brand competition the 70cc class becasue of it's displacement. Just becasue it runs better shouldn't make it the next class up. Thats just crazy talk, saw socialism. Good thing Obama doesn't get into sanctioning saw racing otherwise he would take it out of the 5 cube class so the others would have a chance...LOL


----------



## Erick

Oh I agree and strictly by the numbers we've been doing wrong for quite some time..... I love my 40cc class MS260 and my 3800 just flat rocks the 30cc class. 


But why when someone starts a thread around here about the 372 vs the 441 do you Dolmar boys always through the 7900 at it.  Why no mention of the 7300??? I mean lets call a spade a spade here.


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> Oh I agree and strictly by the numbers we've been doing wrong for quite some time..... I love my 40cc class MS260 and my 3800 just flat rocks the 30cc class.
> 
> 
> But why when someone starts a thread around here about the 372 vs the 441 do you Dolmar boys always through the 7900 at it.  Why no mention of the 7300??? I mean lets call a spade a spade here.



Plain simple answer it runs much better for less coin. WHy pay more for less???

So if you had to make up racing classes how would it look


----------



## Erick

gink595 said:


> Plain simple answer it runs much better for less coin. WHy pay more for less???



That’s always the argument  Plain simple answer would be dealer support and parts availability.

We could go there but why... its been done soooooo many times already. 



gink595 said:


> So if you had to make up racing classes how would it look



I made up some saw classes once already and you ran them. 

Just a little FYI though, saw racers make up a very very very very very very (did I say very cause I ment to say very) small percentage (not even) of chainsaw owners and users. The avarage guy doesn't really care about 3 cube or 5 cube classes and they don't even split hairs about a 79cc saw being in the 70cc or 80cc saw class.


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> That’s always the argument  Plain simple answer would be dealer support and parts availability.
> 
> We could go there but why... its been done soooooo many times already.
> 
> 
> 
> I made up some saw classes once already and you ran them.
> 
> Just a little FYI though, saw racers make up a very very very very very very (did I say very cause I ment to say very) small percentage (not even) of chainsaw owners and users. The avarage guy doesn't really care about 3 cube or 5 cube classes and they don't even split hairs about a 79cc saw being in the 70cc or 80cc saw class.



I'll just say i can get parts faster through a NY Dolmar dealer than I can get them from my local Stihl dealer without leaving the house, like anyone else could  But since you didn't mention it I won't use that as my rebuttal:greenchainsaw:

Honestly I can't remember how you set the classes up but my 5100 ran against all the other typical 3 cubes that day.

I agree on the saw racing too, very little % care about stuff like that, thats why the Dolmar gang always throws out the 7900 for a option, becasue it is a good option to the 441 and 372 or 460. Not alot of people know about it and when new guys ask I throw it out there. Becasue I once was looking at a 460 and glad I bought the 638.00 7900 instead of the 950.00 460. Never hurts to throw it out there! If someone wouldn't have for me I might not have ever known I missed the mark 

I really did like how you set the dollar a run deal up, that made it very fun and interesting. I would like to see that happen again, maybe have a free class too, call it a prcatice session


----------



## nmurph

Erick said:


> Oh I agree and strictly by the numbers we've been doing wrong for quite some time..... I love my 40cc class MS260 and my 3800 just flat rocks the 30cc class.
> 
> 
> But why when someone starts a thread around here about the 372 vs the 441 do you Dolmar boys always through the 7900 at it.  Why no mention of the 7300??? I mean lets call a spade a spade here.



bc weight, handling, and cost. it is more similar to the smaller saws. i have no problem calling it an 80cc saw, though. but by the same measure, i have no problem throwing it in the mix against smaller displacement saws that it might be shopped against.


----------



## Erick

gink595 said:


> I'll just say i can get parts faster through a NY Dolmar dealer than I can get them from my local Stihl dealer without leaving the house, like anyone else could  But since you didn't mention it I won't use that as my rebuttal:greenchainsaw:



As always the "your mileage may vary" disclaimer should probably be attached to that one. 

I can *put my hands on *just about any Stihl part needed in less than 30 minutes here, pretty close to the same for Husky. That’s a huge deal to a professional who’s losing money by the hour in down time. Not to mention the homeowner who doesn't have the knowledge or gumption to fix their own saw. 



gink595 said:


> Honestly I can't remember how you set the classes up but my 5100 ran against all the other typical 3 cubes that day.
> 
> I really did like how you set the dollar a run deal up, that made it very fun and interesting. I would like to see that happen again, maybe have a free class too, call it a prcatice session



I really liked the dollar runs also.. I thought it might spice things up a bit and it did. I can't take credit for the idea though that one was something that Eric (jeeper) and I had talked about at his last GTG.

I broke the saw classes down just like we compare them around here on the forums. When we compare saws they are by 50cc, 60cc, 70cc, 80cc "classes" but in reality we lump similar saws together like the examples I gave. So I broke them down just like we talk about them so that the same saws we compare here would have to run each other in the log.

35.1cc-45cc = the "40cc class"
45.1cc-55cc = "50cc class"
55.1cc-65cc = "60cc class"
65.1cc-75cc = "70cc class"
75.1cc-85cc = "80cc class"
85.1cc-95cc = "90cc class"
95.1cc-105cc = "100cc class"
105 and up ran together

That put the saws like the Stihl MS460, the Dolmar 7900, and the Husky 385 all running together but keeps them away from the likes of the 372, 044, and 7300.

I think it makes for much more interesting racing and puts the BB conversions in the classes they probably should belong..... but maybe thats the Obama in me... no I think thats the change.


----------



## Erick

gink595 said:


> I agree on the saw racing too, very little % care about stuff like that, thats why the Dolmar gang always throws out the 7900 for a option, becasue it is a good option to the 441 and 372 or 460. Not alot of people know about it and when new guys ask I throw it out there. Becasue I once was looking at a 460 and glad I bought the 638.00 7900 instead of the 950.00 460. Never hurts to throw it out there! If someone wouldn't have for me I might not have ever known I missed the mark



 It was my 460 you ran against Eric's 7900 that drove you to the dark side.


----------



## FATGUY

Erick said:


> 35.1cc-45cc = the "40cc class"
> 45.1cc-55cc = "50cc class"
> 55.1cc-65cc = "60cc class"
> 65.1cc-75cc = "70cc class"
> 75.1cc-85cc = "80cc class"
> 85.1cc-95cc = "90cc class"
> 95.1cc-105cc = "100cc class"
> 105 and up ran together



:agree2:, anything else is ridiculous IMHO


----------



## FATGUY

gink595 said:


> Plain simple answer it runs much better for less coin. WHy pay more for less???



totaly agree. Greatest saw *ever* made (And yes, I'm still a Stihl Head, but facts are facts)


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> It was my 460 you ran against Eric's 7900 that drove you to the dark side.



No the first GTG I went to(ericjeepers) I had my 7900, Bill Poor deleiverd it to Eric's that day and I picked it up so I did run the 7900 before I did your 460. It then got shipped to the darkside to become infamous.LOL

Did you move yet?


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> 35.1cc-45cc = the "40cc class"
> 45.1cc-55cc = "50cc class"
> 55.1cc-65cc = "60cc class"
> 65.1cc-75cc = "70cc class"
> 75.1cc-85cc = "80cc class"
> 85.1cc-95cc = "90cc class"
> 95.1cc-105cc = "100cc class"
> 105 and up ran together



I all honesty though, I don't see the "Change" just a mix up of the same thing 

There is still a 10cc difference between classes wether it is 45 to 55 or 40 to 50, what's the difference the margain is still the same. The only way I would see a closeing of the gap is to go every 5cc. Otherwise the guy runnning a 365 is going scream becasue he is running against a 375, unless it is Jack Walker becasue his 365 lays it down and can cover the 5 cube class as well.:monkey:

The only advantage I can see is if your a 260/440/441 or 372 owner. And that is becasue they now have a displacenment advantage over the smaller saws. If you did it every 5cc starting at 35cc there would be more oppurtunities to race


----------



## Erick

gink595 said:


> I all honesty though, I don't see the "Change" just a mix up of the same thing
> 
> There is still a 10cc difference between classes wether it is 45 to 55 or 40 to 50, what's the difference the margain is still the same. The only way I would see a closeing of the gap is to go every 5cc. Otherwise the guy runnning a 365 is going scream becasue he is running against a 375, unless it is Jack Walker becasue his 365 lays it down and can cover the 5 cube class as well.:monkey:
> 
> The only advantage I can see is if your a 260/440/441 or 372 owner. And that is becasue they now have a displacenment advantage over the smaller saws. If you did it every 5cc starting at 35cc there would be more oppurtunities to race




 I think my little joke missed the mark, you had made a reference to Obama in a thread that had nothing to do with politics insinuating that I may be Obamaesq in my socialistic views on saw fairness and equality.

The change I was referring to was the one Mr Obama broke off in us all  not the small shift in classes at my GTG. 

Someone’s always gonna scream when they lose its just the way it is.... sore losers and excuse makers are gonna be at every ball game and they're gonna have a reason they got beat.

I'm not one of them as you well know, if you beat me its because you were faster... doesn't much matter weather its because you had a better chain or a bigger hole in the muffler.... shame on me for not bringing everything I had. 

I broke the classes different because of the way we compare saws around here, a 50cc 5100 should compete with the 49cc 260 and a 50cc 346, but would you really wanna compare it to a 59cc 361 or MS362 in real life?? Not really, and we don’t do that here, so I broke the classes the way we do when we compare saws, same gap but its more of the saws we compare here running each other in the log..... otherwise a guy running a 5100 might complain that he has to run against a MS362.  It works both ways.


----------



## rms61moparman

Erick said:


> But why when someone starts a thread around here about the 372 vs the 441 do you Dolmar boys always through the 7900 at it.  Why no mention of the 7300??? I mean lets call a spade a spade here.





From what I've experienced a 7300 would hold its own nicely against the competetion in that group without any help from "big brother".
It's almost a shame, in a way, that the 7900 is so close in price to the 7300!
I'd seriously consider the 73cc if I could find one in a "blue suit"!LOL


Mike


----------



## gink595

Erick said:


> I think my little joke missed the mark, you had made a reference to Obama in a thread that had nothing to do with politics insinuating that I may be Obamaesq in my socialistic views on saw fairness and equality.
> 
> The change I was referring to was the one Mr Obama broke off in us all  not the small shift in classes at my GTG.
> 
> Someone’s always gonna scream when they lose its just the way it is.... sore losers and excuse makers are gonna be at every ball game and they're gonna have a reason they got beat.
> 
> I'm not one of them as you well know, if you beat me its because you were faster... doesn't much matter weather its because you had a better chain or a bigger hole in the muffler.... shame on me for not bringing everything I had.
> 
> I broke the classes different because of the way we compare saws around here, a 50cc 5100 should compete with the 49cc 260 and a 50cc 346, but would you really wanna compare it to a 59cc 361 or MS362 in real life?? Not really, and we don’t do that here, so I broke the classes the way we do when we compare saws, same gap but its more of the saws we compare here running each other in the log..... otherwise a guy running a 5100 might complain that he has to run against a MS362. It works both ways.



Exactly, Run what ya brought and hope to hell you brought enough


I see what your saying Erick, and I agree, no one will always be happy, I don't cry when I get beat either, a saw is only as fast as it's chain will let it cut. If you brought a saw to race don't forget to bring a chain too

I see the way you broke those classes down and it does make sense when they are all stock but porting can take leaps and bounds on a saw and depending on how creative a fella is on his porting it might be a good comparison with a 5100 and 362 Small ported saw doesn't always mean they are slow, I seen a couple ported 346's that make you shake your head and go WOW... I still have yet to run a stock 346 to see what all the fuss is about. But I will when I get a good chance ot snag one:greenchainsaw: Were on the same page here


----------



## Jacob J.

gink595 said:


> I'll just say i can get parts faster through a NY Dolmar dealer than I can get them from my local Stihl dealer without leaving the house, like anyone else could  But since you didn't mention it I won't use that as my rebuttal:greenchainsaw:



We're lucky to have a great Dolmar dealer as a sponsor here.


----------



## MuleyJ

rms61moparman said:


> From what I've experienced a 7300 would hold its own nicely against the competetion in that group without any help from "big brother".
> It's almost a shame, in a way, that the 7900 is so close in price to the 7300!
> I'd seriously consider the 73cc if I could find one in a "blue suit"!LOL
> 
> 
> Mike



Dealer here says the 7300 is going away this year?


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK

I just watched the video with 3 saws and only seen 2 in it, no 7900?


----------



## rms61moparman

The 7900 was the one you heard running in the dark!LOL

I think



Mike


----------



## MS460WOODCHUCK

rms61moparman said:


> The 7900 was the one you heard running in the dark!LOL
> 
> I think
> 
> 
> 
> Mike




There's only 4 cuts made right?


----------



## blsnelling

ms460woodchuck said:


> There's only 4 cuts made right?



There were probably 40 cuts made. I just showed the best.


----------



## sweetjetskier

question for everyone, my dealer will not work on a modded saw. What is the amount of dealers that will work on one ???

doing all these mods might make the saw run quicker,etc, but do you guys with modded saws have a hard time getting work done on your saws, if you can not handle the repairs in house ??


----------



## MCW

sweetjetskier said:


> question for everyone, my dealer will not work on a modded saw. What is the amount of dealers that will work on one ???
> 
> doing all these mods might make the saw run quicker,etc, but do you guys with modded saws have a hard time getting work done on your saws, if you can not handle the repairs in house ??



If you are modding saws and still expecting a warranty then I can see why a dealer wouldn't work on it - however in this day and age if dealers want to give good service they should work on ALL saws, even if they have to tell the owner that whoever did the porting is an idiot and they'll never get it running properly. I'm sure they've seen some shocking backyard port jobs...


----------



## sweetjetskier

i did not say anything about under warranty, just if a modded saw needs work, will a dealer work on being modded??

There is a lot to consider with a modded saw, the usuall dealer has no clue what to do with a modded saw.


----------



## MCW

sweetjetskier said:


> i did not say anything about under warranty, just if a modded saw needs work, will a dealer work on being modded??
> 
> There is a lot to consider with a modded saw, the usuall dealer has no clue what to do with a modded saw.



I didn't say you had said anything but I know it is a concern with dealers. As far as working on a modded saw goes though, the only difference is the way it need to be tuned. All the other parts are basically the same (on a normal wood's port anyway). Apart from maybe an unlimited coil or something.


----------



## little possum

sweetjetskier said:


> i did not say anything about under warranty, just if a modded saw needs work, will a dealer work on being modded??
> 
> There is a lot to consider with a modded saw, the usuall dealer has no clue what to do with a modded saw.



Same 2 stroke concept, nothing changes except the tuning, the saw drinks a little bit more, and makes more noise.

My dealer works on everything. I make sure he has smoke(cigs) money$ when we leave 

Dealer shouldnt worry about the saw being modded.


----------



## parrisw

If your running modded saws, you should learn to work on them yourself.


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> if your running modded saws, you should learn to work on them yourself.


+1


----------



## sweetjetskier

I am asking as many people on here prob dont really know how to work on their saws on a detailed amount.

I am sure their are many guys that "purchashed" modifications and they do not have the ability to diagnose probs if and when they come up.

tuning can be difficult as we all know


----------



## little possum

Mostly need to know how to tune them.


----------



## blsnelling

If a person cannot tune a saw, they absolutely should not own a ported saw.


----------



## rms61moparman

parrisw said:


> If your running modded saws, you should learn to work on them yourself.



The sentence would work just as well without the "modded" part.
It's always a good idea to know enough to know if your dealer/mechanic is ripping you off.


Mike


----------



## parrisw

rms61moparman said:


> The sentence would work just as well without the "modded" part.
> It's always a good idea to know enough to know if your dealer/mechanic is ripping you off.
> 
> 
> Mike



Very true!! If your out in the bush and your carb adjustment needs a little tickle? What will you do? 

Pack up your day and go home? 

Keep running the saw and hope you don't damage it? 

Or learn how to tune it and keep working?


----------



## Jacob J.

I know "professional" log cutters that can't even tune a saw...


----------



## parrisw

Jacob J. said:


> I know "professional" log cutters that can't even tune a saw...



LOL. Me too!


----------



## Andyshine77

I'll reiterate the fact that most who run modded saws have the ability to diagnose and work on their own saws, and if not you probably shouldn't have a ported saw.


----------



## Erick

Jacob J. said:


> I know "professional" log cutters that can't even tune a saw...





parrisw said:


> LOL. Me too!



I know quite a few that can't, worse yet is I know even more who think they can. 

One logger in particular drives about an hour and forty five minutes one way, past about 5 other shops to have his saws worked on and quite often its just to have the air filter cleaned and the carb adjusted. .... but I like customers like him, I've tried several times to show him how to adjust the carb but he absolutely refuses to touch the saw for anything beyond the bar, chain, and sprocket... says he'd rather pay me to do it and know its right.


----------



## parrisw

Erick said:


> worse yet is I know even more who think they can.



I've gotten a number of free saws that way! LOL So it benefit's me, so far because of that I've gotten a 394, 395, 371.


----------



## rms61moparman

Erick said:


> One logger in particular drives about an hour and forty five minutes one way, past about 5 other shops to have his saws worked on and quite often its just to have the air filter cleaned and the carb adjusted. .... but I like customers like him, I've tried several times to show him how to adjust the carb but he absolutely refuses to touch the saw for anything beyond the bar, chain, and sprocket... says he'd rather pay me to do it and know its right.






There is a lot of wisdom in that as long as he isn't having to stop in the middle of a job to do it.
If you don't start showing up at some GTGs I might have to resort to that just to see your ugly mug again!!!


Mike


----------



## MostShady1

parrisw said:


> I've gotten a number of free saws that way! LOL So it benefit's me, so far because of that I've gotten a 394, 395, 371.



 Good for you! The only "keep it's" I've gotten so far are a couple of crappy, box store Homelites. New junk hardly worth fixing to sell.


----------



## parrisw

MostShady1 said:


> Good for you! The only "keep it's" I've gotten so far are a couple of crappy, box store Homelites. New junk hardly worth fixing to sell.



Thanks. But in the end their never free, LOL. Cost a few bucks to fix, but in the end you get a great saw for cheap.


----------



## MostShady1

parrisw said:


> Thanks. But in the end their never free, LOL. Cost a few bucks to fix, but in the end you get a great saw for cheap.



I wouldn't say anything about these plastic Homelite's is great! They both make a stock Wild-Thing look like a quality machine!


----------



## parrisw

MostShady1 said:


> I wouldn't say anything about these plastic Homelite's is great! They both make a stock Wild-Thing look like a quality machine!



ha ha. ya, I suppose, I've never had my hands on any of those.


----------



## WoodChuck'r

I wonder when this thread is gonna die.


----------



## Thorcw

not yet ...


----------



## rms61moparman

WoodChucker81 said:


> I wonder when this thread is gonna die.






From the looks of the posts on this last page, it already has!!!


Mike


----------



## Thorcw

Its dead but still kicking maybe we could stir the pot and say "My echo does better then that 385 or something" might get some life into this thread


----------



## Erick

Bump!


----------



## BarkBuster20

throw a 36"+ bar with a .404 chain, and it wouldnt even be close, the 660 would already be crowned, im surprised no one has done a comparison like this... although i have noticed everyone doing these comparisons like the 390 a lot..


----------



## SawTroll

BarkBuster20 said:


> *throw a 36"+ bar with a .404 chain,* and it wouldnt even be close, the 660 would already be crowned, im surprised no one has done a comparison like this... although i have noticed everyone doing these comparisons like the 390 a lot..




Why would anyone want to do that, on any of those saws?????


----------



## parrisw

BarkBuster20 said:


> throw a 36"+ bar with a .404 chain, and it wouldnt even be close, the 660 would already be crowned, im surprised no one has done a comparison like this... although i have noticed everyone doing these comparisons like the 390 a lot..



UH OH, next you'll say your stock 044 will outcut those saws in that wood!

4" of bar wont make that much of a difference. At least none that you could feel anyway. .404 is a waste of time.

Maybe your right, maybe not. Can't say unless you've tried it. But that's not exactly real world. IMHO


----------



## WoodChuck'r

Erick said:


> Bump!



Ugh.


----------



## Thorcw

To the top!!!


----------



## blsnelling

BarkBuster20 said:


> throw a 36"+ bar with a .404 chain, and it wouldnt even be close, the 660 would already be crowned, im surprised no one has done a comparison like this... although i have noticed everyone doing these comparisons like the 390 a lot..



I doubt there are very many 660 operators running .404. Just doesn't make sense for most.


----------



## MCW

I'll run .404" on those saws when they get here. On longer bars like 32" on these saws it is a waste of time but I'll do a comparo anyway 
One good thing about .404" that people forget sometimes, and I'm talking semi chisel and chipper chain, is that it will outwear 3/8" by a country mile - in really tough, abrasive conditions .404" is highly underrated.

I mean come on guys, it's not all about speed you know 

What the hell am I saying? If it doesn't have the word fast or speed attached nobody here would care


----------



## BarkBuster20

parrisw said:


> UH OH, next you'll say your stock 044 will outcut those saws in that wood!
> 
> 4" of bar wont make that much of a difference. At least none that you could feel anyway. .404 is a waste of time.
> 
> Maybe your right, maybe not. Can't say unless you've tried it. But that's not exactly real world. IMHO



I think its more common than you think, not where you are i guess but its really not unusual. 36 inch bar with .404 chain and 7 pin sprocket is money in the bank especially for cutting out stumps, or falling big, rotten trees. I suppose it wouldnt be very usefull where your cutting hardwood all day, but for PNW its really usefull.

4 inches of bar will actually make quite a bit of difference, especially when moving up to .404 gauge, and you have to sharpen the chain about half as often, which counts for a lot when cutting out old growth stumps that have rot and dirt in/on them.

I actually run a 30 inch bar on my 044, which gets fully burried often, with no problems, i also dont cut super hard woods, once in a while i cut maple, 066 handles 6 more inches of bar just fine, in fact more popular than 36 inch .404 on 660s around here is 42 inch .404 bar/chain.


----------



## Erick

BarkBuster20 said:


> I think its more common than you think, not where you are i guess but its really not unusual. 36 inch bar with .404 chain and 7 pin sprocket is money in the bank especially for cutting out stumps, or falling big, rotten trees. I suppose it wouldnt be very usefull where your cutting hardwood all day, but for PNW its really usefull.
> 
> 4 inches of bar will actually make quite a bit of difference, especially when moving up to .404 gauge, and you have to sharpen the chain about half as often, which counts for a lot when cutting out old growth stumps that have rot and dirt in/on them.
> 
> I actually run a 30 inch bar on my 044, which gets fully burried often, with no problems, i also dont cut super hard woods, once in a while i cut maple, 066 handles 6 more inches of bar just fine, in fact more popular than 36 inch .404 on 660s around here is 42 inch .404 bar/chain.




Don't see much use for .404 unless you have a saw that regularly breaks 3/8's...... and you don't.


----------



## BarkBuster20

Erick said:


> Don't see much use for .404 unless you have a saw that regularly breaks 3/8's...... and you don't.



That is why i run 3/8 on all my saws :spam: but there are other reasons, chain life, amount of cuts you can make without sharpening, cutting rotten trees or stumps, (it helps avoid the chain completely dulling before you finish your cut).


----------



## Erick

BarkBuster20 said:


> That is why i run 3/8 on all my saws :spam: but there are other reasons, chain life, amount of cuts you can make without sharpening, cutting rotten trees or stumps, (it helps avoid the chain completely dulling before you finish your cut).



Please expound??? how many more cuts do you get with a dull .404 chain vs. a dull 3/8's chain???

How many more cuts do you get before the .404 gets dull vs. the 3/8's????

How many more rotten trees can you cut with a dull .404 vs. a dull 3/8's????

Numbers????? poysonal experience???


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> I'll run .404" on those saws when they get here. On longer bars like 32" on these saws it is a waste of time but I'll do a comparo anyway
> One good thing about .404" that people forget sometimes, and I'm talking semi chisel and chipper chain, is that it will outwear 3/8" by a country mile - in really tough, abrasive conditions .404" is highly underrated.
> 
> I mean come on guys, it's not all about speed you know
> 
> What the hell am I saying? If it doesn't have the word fast or speed attached nobody here would care



I agree .404 is more durable, but not useful for me. I just don't think its that much better then 3/8 to run it sometimes, its more convient to run 3/8 on everything I got, even in dirty conditions. 

I had .404 on a few bars before, but I just phased it out. So I'm not just talking outa my ass here, I have real world experience with it.


----------



## BarkBuster20

Erick said:


> Please expound??? how many more cuts do you get with a dull .404 chain vs. a dull 3/8's chain???
> 
> How many more cuts do you get before the .404 gets dull vs. the 3/8's????
> 
> How many more rotten trees can you cut with a dull .404 vs. a dull 3/8's????
> 
> Numbers????? poysonal experience???



i dont know iv never thought to grab a log counter and count all my cuts, and take into consideration how rotten one was over the other.. whats your point? Ill tell you a few facts, .404 chains dull slower than 3/8 chains they also dull much slower when cutting rotten wood and dirty wood, its the same princable as .325 to 3/8. They also last MUCH longer

any more petty little jabs eric?


----------



## BarkBuster20

parrisw said:


> I agree .404 is more durable, but not useful for me. I just don't think its that much better then 3/8 to run it sometimes, its more convient to run 3/8 on everything I got, even in dirty conditions.
> 
> I had .404 on a few bars before, but I just phased it out. So I'm not just talking outa my ass here, I have real world experience with it.



I dont disagree with anything you have written here.


----------



## parrisw

BarkBuster20 said:


> I dont disagree with anything you have written here.



Cool!


----------



## MCW

Hey running both .404" and 3/8" chain dosn't make much sense if you're trying to stick to one guage for convenience (and in many cases cost).
To the guys here though that are outright ragging on .404" have they ever actually tried it? I'm not talking full chisel here, I'm talking semi chisel and chipper. Apart from the carbide chains no current hand held saw chain will outwear .404" chipper.
Most of the full time hardwood firewood cutters that I know of who cut old dirty Redgum on river flood plains use .404" semi chisel or chipper. There is a good reason for this as these conditons are some of the hardest you'll find on chains.
I have compared .404" semi chisel and 3/8" semi chisel in some pretty crappy conditions and 3/8" is nowhere near it -although I haven't timed it.

If 3/8" was as durable as .404" harvesters would be using it...


----------



## Erick

BarkBuster20 said:


> i dont know iv never thought to grab a log counter and count all my cuts, and take into consideration how rotten one was over the other.. whats your point? Ill tell you a few facts, .404 chains dull slower than 3/8 chains they also dull much slower when cutting rotten wood and dirty wood, its the same princable as .325 to 3/8. They also last MUCH longer
> 
> any more petty little jabs eric?



If I was jabbing you'd be bleeding.  

Care to quantify your statements???? If I hit a rock wit a chain it doesn't much matter weather its .404, 3/8s, or .325...... its just as dull. 

yep!, you'll get more sharpenings out of .404 but it will dull just the same..... care to prove me wrong?????


----------



## MostShady1

Erick said:


> If I was jabbing you'd be bleeding.
> 
> Care to quantify your statements???? If I hit a rock wit a chain it doesn't much matter weather its .404, 3/8s, or .325...... its just as dull.
> 
> yep!, you'll get more sharpenings out of .404 but it will dull just the same..... care to prove me wrong?????



woo-hoo, the thread lives with a new challenge!!


----------



## Andyshine77

I've yet to see any advantage to .404 chain, but then again I run Stihl chain and it seems to stay sharp longer than other brands. + it cuts much faster than .404 I honstly think this has to do with brand of chain and perception.


----------



## wigglesworth

Anybody tried an 18" .404 on an 026?

Just curious...


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> ...*brad* of chain and perception.



Hmmmm:greenchainsaw:


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Hey running both .404" and 3/8" chain dosn't make much sense if you're trying to stick to one guage for convenience (and in many cases cost).
> To the guys here though that are outright ragging on .404" have they ever actually tried it? I'm not talking full chisel here, I'm talking semi chisel and chipper. Apart from the carbide chains no current hand held saw chain will outwear .404" chipper.
> Most of the full time hardwood firewood cutters that I know of who cut old dirty Redgum on river flood plains use .404" semi chisel or chipper. There is a good reason for this as these conditons are some of the hardest you'll find on chains.
> I have compared .404" semi chisel and 3/8" semi chisel in some pretty crappy conditions and 3/8" is nowhere near it -although I haven't timed it.
> 
> If 3/8" was as durable as .404" harvesters would be using it...



.404 for the topping saw and 3/4" for the main.


----------



## Andyshine77

blsnelling said:


> Hmmmm:greenchainsaw:



Freudian slip I guess lol.


----------



## MCW

.404" *WILL* outwear 3/8" chain the same as 3/8" will outwear .325" which in turn outwears .3/8"LP which in turn outwears 3/8" PICCO which in turn outwears 1/4". 

I see a pattern forming.

To say otherwise tells me you've never tried it - I'm not trying to be a smart arse but the vast amount of full chisel used on this site suggests that abrasive cutting conditions aren't encountered a hell of a lot by many guys here. If they were the LAST chain you'd be using is full chisel. 

I'm not saying .404" is suitable for all saws or even faster on all saws (it is faster on some - just like 3/8" is faster on some saws than .325")

Hitting rocks doesn't count as that's not classed as wear. No chain likes that


----------



## tdi-rick

AUSSIE1 said:


> .404 for the topping saw and 3/4" for the main.



C'mon Al, post a piccy


----------



## Andyshine77

MCW said:


> .404" *WILL* outwear 3/8" chain the same as 3/8" will outwear .325" which in turn outwears .3/8"LP which in turn outwears 3/8" PICCO which in turn outwears 1/4".
> 
> I see a pattern forming.
> 
> To say otherwise tells me you've never tried it - I'm not trying to be a smart arse but the vast amount of full chisel used on this site suggests that abrasive cutting conditions aren't encountered a hell of a lot by many guys here. If they were the LAST chain you'd be using is full chisel.
> 
> I'm not saying .404" is suitable for all saws or even faster on all saws (it is faster on some - just like 3/8" is faster on some saws than .325")
> 
> Hitting rocks doesn't count as that's not classed as wear. No chain likes that



In your situation .404 is obviously the better option, I was referring to the teeth on the chain not the chassis. I run 3/8 on my 084 with out issue. I've even done a bit of stump work cutting some very hard Hickory, and the chain stayed nice and sharp. I find Stihl chain stays sharp longer than any other chain by a long mile, it is pricey though. 

The wood and dust you guys deal with looks to be a real pain in the A$$.


----------



## Thorcw

OMG the chain argument.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> In your situation .404 is obviously the better option, I was referring to the teeth on the chain not the chassis. I run 3/8 on my 084 with out issue. I've even done a bit of stump work cutting some very hard Hickory, and the chain stayed nice and sharp. I find Stihl chain stays sharp longer than any other chain by a long mile, it is pricey though.
> 
> The wood and dust you guys deal with looks to be a real pain in the A$$.



I know what you mean Andy re: the chassis but the teeth themselves on .404" will wear better than 3/8". If you used them side by side on some really really abrasive, sandy, dirty hardwood I'm sure you'd agree. Hard wood alone doesn't wear chain anywhere near as fast as hardwood with impregnated sand and dust. I'm not trying to push the old "our wood is tougher than your wood" argument but seriously, 3/8" really struggles on some of the stuff I've cut. I've had the 7900 loaded with 3/8" and the 3120 loaded with .404" side by side and it is absolutely no competition when the going gets tough - I am far from the only one with this opinion. I actually left a dead old River Box tree after wrecking 3 x 3/8" chains on the 7900 just to get it on the ground. I got 2 more rounds out of it with the 3120 and .404" before that was blunt as well. Even though it was top notch firewood and the hardest wood I have ever cut (by miles) I left it there. My mate's 30 tonne splitter wouldn't even touch the rounds we took home.
I do like Stihl RSC as far as full chisel goes, in fact the more I use it the more impressed I am - Oregon LGX is also a good full chisel chain. As far as semi chisel I haven't found any of them stick with Carlton in .404" or Carlton/Windsor in 3/8". They all cut nice, they just don't wear as well. Not much in it though.

Yeah some of the best firewood that is worth the most money is also in the driest, dirtiest spots that are extremely tough on saws, bars, and chains 



Thorcw said:


> OMG the chain argument.


\

Hey come on mate, if it was about chain on the MAKITA you'd be in 

Chain discussions are cool


----------



## BarkBuster20

MCW i think they were just arguing because, for one, i said .404 is better in certain situations than 3/8. Secondly if you run a .404 chain with 32+ inch bar the 660 will be faster, i think most on here would shoot themselves in the foot before admitting this.


----------



## blsnelling

BarkBuster20 said:


> MCW i think they were just arguing because, for one, i said .404 is better in certain situations than 3/8. Secondly if you run a .404 chain with 32+ inch bar the 660 will be faster, i think most on here would shoot themselves in the foot before admitting this.



I'd admit it in a heartbeat. I for one agree that the 660 will pull ahead under the most demanding conditions. It most definately has more grunt.


----------



## Tzed250

Another advantage of .404 is the wider kerf. It makes for less efficient use of power, but the clearance in a deep, long cut can be a real plus. 



.


----------



## Andyshine77

No arguing here, just discussing how different chain works in different situations. I can see now in more adverse conditions .404 being more useful, and how a wider kerf could be beneficial.


----------



## john inglis

*.404*

i do not use .404 a lot but it is hard to beat cutting up trunks with a 4" to 6" pipe full of wet muck and grit in the bark , rarely use full chisel on anything as it does not keep an edge long enough for me to want to use it on the timber i am cutting .a lot of the guys cutting firewood for a living arround here have gone to husky 395's with .404 for durability and lack of air filter hassles . i'm cutting on sandy stoney ridges with a fair bit of quartz stone , we get really bad westerly winds here and the bark can be full of grit 6' off the ground . do use .375 semi chisel most of the time on my 460's but .404 on the 076 or 090 eats the dirty stuff better

ps these ridge grown trees can be a pain to bark in the dry times and last year was our driest year on record .


----------



## Thorcw

I think they should bring 1/2 chain back or 9/16 very cool chain:spam:


----------



## MCW

Thorcw said:


> I think they should bring 1/2 chain back or 9/16 very cool chain:spam:



Lets ask for inch chain 

Hey .404" isn't for everybody thats for sure. To run a few different guages when not 100% necessary is a real pain in the butt. 

I wasn't taking any comments personally in regard to .404" chain, it's just that every now and then I've run my own comparisons and come up with a completely different answer to some on this site. As mentioned though, the vast amount of full chisel used on this site suggests that abrasive, tough cutting conditions aren't encountered a hell of a lot by many here


----------



## Thorcw

Well Oregon has said theyll make any chain you want but you need to buy 20,000 feet of it


----------



## MCW

Thorcw said:


> Well Oregon has said theyll make any chain you want but you need to buy 20,000 feet of it



Oh  I was only joking!

Wanna go halves?


----------



## wigglesworth

MCW said:


> Oh  I was only joking!
> 
> Wanna go halves?



Im in...but I only want the left halves. I got some left handed circles to cut..


----------



## MCW

wigglesworth said:


> Im in...but I only want the left halves. I got some left handed circles to cut..



Bahahaha  Does that mean Oregon will make 10,000 feet instead of 20,000 feet?


----------



## MCW

Well today was the day. I had both the 390 and 660 arrive in Australia. I was absolutely fuming that I had work to do until 6pm so didn't get the chance to run these saws today in daylight. I have tomorrow (Friday) off so am going to give them a run in the morning. The Makita is still on it's way.
I do have some pretty saddening (to me) news. The 660 is already sold and will be going back interstate with it's new owner tomorrow morning. Unfortunately a good mate of mine who is a plastic welder but also has a chainsaw/tree felling business like mine has sold his 880 and was buying a new 660 next week. I happened to let slip that I had one coming and he instantly put first dibs on it. It couldn't have arrived at a better time for him or a worse time for me. I was really hoping to get video of it etc but my fiancee is in Canada with the video camera and won't be back for another 1 1/2 weeks. My mate DEFINATELY needed this saw by then so alas, no tree felling vids or even log chopping vids of the 660 in my back yard  I'm sorry to let some of the guys here down. He actually wanted it tonight but I said NO WAY as I am going to rip into a few logs with it that I have at home in the morning. He certainly wasn't taking this saw before I'd used it...
I fueled and oiled both saws up and as expected they fired up without a hitch - as you'd expect with quality pro saws. I'll be honest in saying that I instantly felt more at home holding the 390, simply because it's what I'm used to. I can assure you my mate will be more at home with the 660 - it's what we're both used to.
Revving both saws out back basically told me what I'd already expected - I liked the sound, feel, and throttle response of the 390 over the 660. There is something with the 660 that just doesn't "gel" with me as far as the feel and balance goes.
Anyway, I'll keep everybody informed but I am really disappointed that I won't be able to run the 660 in a tree felling scenario - bummer 

One thing though, he is REALLY excited about his new saw being modified after me raving on about my Dolmars and 390XPG. However to him it is just a tool to make money, not a sign of CAD


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Well today was the day. I had both the 390 and 660 arrive in Australia. I was absolutely fuming that I had work to do until 6pm so didn't get the chance to run these saws today in daylight. I have tomorrow (Friday) off so am going to give them a run in the morning. The Makita is still on it's way.
> I do have some pretty saddening (to me) news. The 660 is already sold and will be going back interstate with it's new owner tomorrow morning. Unfortunately a good mate of mine who is a plastic welder but also has a chainsaw/tree felling business like mine has sold his 880 and was buying a new 660 next week. I happened to let slip that I had one coming and he instantly put first dibs on it. It couldn't have arrived at a better time for him or a worse time for me. I was really hoping to get video of it etc but my fiancee is in Canada with the video camera and won't be back for another 1 1/2 weeks. My mate DEFINATELY needed this saw by then so alas, no tree felling vids or even log chopping vids of the 660 in my back yard  I'm sorry to let some of the guys here down. He actually wanted it tonight but I said NO WAY as I am going to rip into a few logs with it that I have at home in the morning. He certainly wasn't taking this saw before I'd used it...
> I fueled and oiled both saws up and as expected they fired up without a hitch - as you'd expect with quality pro saws. I'll be honest in saying that I instantly felt more at home holding the 390, simply because it's what I'm used to. I can assure you my mate will be more at home with the 660 - it's what we're both used to.
> Revving both saws out back basically told me what I'd already expected - I liked the sound, feel, and throttle response of the 390 over the 660. There is something with the 660 that just doesn't "gel" with me as far as the feel and balance goes.
> Anyway, I'll keep everybody informed but I am really disappointed that I won't be able to run the 660 in a tree felling scenario - bummer
> 
> One thing though, he is REALLY excited about his new saw being modified after me raving on about my Dolmars and 390XPG. However to him it is just a tool to make money, not a sign of CAD



Fair enough mate.

Let us know how the 390's compare.


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Fair enough mate.
> 
> Let us know how the 390's compare.



I am absolutely spewing Al. I am actually quite upset that I won't have the chance to give it a good run. If he wasn't a mate I'd say he can wait for a month but...


----------



## tdi-rick

AUSSIE1 said:


> Fair enough mate.
> 
> Let us know how the 390's compare.




Ditto.


----------



## porky616

love a good chain debate. i aint saying nothing just gonna sit back and giggle quietly and watch the feathers fly, might just grab another beer and get comfy.


----------



## MCW

porky616 said:


> love a good chain debate. i aint saying nothing just gonna sit back and giggle quietly and watch the feathers fly, might just grab another beer and get comfy.



Like you'd know anything about chains and tough cutting conditions


----------



## Rudolf73

Thats to bad Matt, I guess we'll just have to order another 660... 

Im waiting to see how that makita goes - very impressed with its performance compared to the 90cc saws in Brad videos.


----------



## porky616

MCW said:


> Like you'd know anything about chains and tough cutting conditions



lips are sealed brother :taped:


----------



## MCW

Rudolf73 said:


> Thats to bad Matt, I guess we'll just have to order another 660...
> 
> Im waiting to see how that makita goes - very impressed with its performance compared to the 90cc saws in Brad videos.



Trying to work out what I can do here to get around it. I do go cutting with him occasionally so may be able to organise piccys and vids at a later date. I've got a 7' diameter 120' high dead Red Gum to drop for him on a river flat over the next month or two so should be able to get some good vids of the 660, 390, and 7901 then.


----------



## Stihlman441

BUGGER about the 660 going


----------



## Rudolf73

MCW said:


> Trying to work out what I can do here to get around it. I do go cutting with him occasionally so may be able to organise piccys and vids at a later date. I've got a 7' diameter 120' high dead Red Gum to drop for him on a river flat over the next month or two so should be able to get some good vids of the 660, 390, and 7901 then.



That will be good - the saws will also be run in buy then. 

And that red gum sounds like a good load of firewood haha


----------



## FATGUY

I was lucky enough to run all three and between the 2 90 cc's I prefered the 660, no reason other than I think it has more ass. Both were amazing though. As far as which I'd rather run all day, it's be the "Black Mak."


----------



## Stihlman441

Cant see MCWs 660 but this stock one does ok.


----------



## porky616

Stihlman441 said:


> Cant see MCWs 660 but this stock one does ok.



mmmm clean green wood, oh how i miss vic,


----------



## blsnelling

I'm just happy they arrived safely Good on ya for helping a brother out. He'll have CAD after he runs a ported saw


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> He'll have CAD after he runs a ported saw



He's excited about it simply because I've been keeping him informed on how my other ported saws perform  We talk at least once a week and discuss chainsaw related stuff.


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> As far as which I'd rather run all day, it's be the "Black Mak."



You'll never go back?


----------



## FATGUY

edisto said:


> You'll never go back?



could this be my dark secret?:jester:


----------



## edisto

FATGUY said:


> could this be my dark secret?:jester:



Not any more.


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> I was lucky enough to run all three and between the 2 90 cc's I prefered the 660, no reason other than I think it has more ass. Both were amazing though. As far as which I'd rather run all day, it's be the "Black Mak."



You and I both know the only reason you liked the 660 better, is because it has this written on it.



:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## BarkBuster20

I think he might like the 660 more because it has more low end torque so it can more easily pull through big wood with big bars. and its probably going to last a lot longer under tough conditions. :chainsawguy:


----------



## AUSSIE1

Phew, it's all cool, he kept the right saw! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling

BarkBuster20 said:


> I think he might like the 660 more because it has more low end torque so it can more easily pull through big wood with big bars. and its probably going to last a lot longer under tough conditions. :chainsawguy:



The 660 definately has more grunt. I just wish Matt could have experienced that.


----------



## FATGUY

Andyshine77 said:


> You and I both know the only reason you liked the 660 better, is because it has this written on it.
> 
> 
> 
> :biggrinbounce2:



It does? I hadn't noticed with all the wood chips hitting me on the leg and distracting me from its orange and white awesomeness. :hmm3grin2orange: 
(in all fairness the 390 was smoother but I don't seem to remember you putting your knee into that one)


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> It does? I hadn't noticed with all the wood chips hitting me on the leg and distracting me from its orange and white awesomeness. :hmm3grin2orange:
> (in all fairness the 390 was smoother but I don't seem to remember you putting your knee into that one)



I bet I could have.


----------



## FATGUY

Andyshine77 said:


> I bet I could have.



nuh-uh


----------



## Andyshine77

FATGUY said:


> nuh-uh



Uh-huh.:looser:


----------



## rms61moparman

FATGUY said:


> nuh-uh





Andyshine77 said:


> Uh-huh.:looser:





Now Boys!!!


We all know the Makita is the best saw of the three!!!


Mike


----------



## FATGUY

Hi Mike!!


----------



## Andyshine77

Hi Mike!!


----------



## blsnelling

Hi Mike!!!


----------



## FATGUY

Hi Brad!


----------



## Andyshine77

Hi Brad!!


----------



## FATGUY

Hi Al!!


----------



## AUSSIE1

rms61moparman said:


> Now Boys!!!
> 
> 
> We all know the Makita is the best saw of the three!!!
> 
> 
> Mike



It only gets worse! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## rms61moparman

Hey Guys!!!

Who wants to PM me and tell me what the differences are in the P/Cs for the Husky 350 and 346???
I know the 350 is one mm bigger..............whadelse?


Mike


----------



## Andyshine77

Hehehe.

Well I've never worked on a 350 so I'm not sure really sure.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> The 660 definately has more grunt. I just wish Matt could have experienced that.



My mate arrived at 7:15am this morning  I ended up fitting a cheap laminated 20" 3/8" bar and a sharp but poorly setup Windsor chain with a 7 pin sprocket to the 660. Had a 24" 3/8" bar fitted to the new 390XP with a well setup Carlton semi chisel chain and 8 pin.
Although I only made half a dozen cuts in a pretty hard Casuarina log it was obvious which saw had more torque (660) although the 7 pin would have contributed to this (can anyone tell me how you get the circlip of this 660 with the machined step in the machined retaining washer? :censored: My mate couldn't get it off either which is why I ran it with a 7 pin).
He also had a crack on one of my 7900's and the new 390XP. He liked both as they outcut the 660, one because of the 8 pins on them and two because both lots of semi chisel were set up perfect whereas the Windsor full chisel on the 660 had too much hook and needed the depth guages dropped further.
I know I made the right choice keeping the 390 but I still would have loved to give the 660 a workout. My mate is fitting the extreme conditions filter kit off his 880 to this saw when he gets home.

By the way guys, this isn't the last you've seen of this saw. I'll get videos and pictures of it one day soon when we're cutting together again.




FATGUY said:


> orange and white awesomeness. :hmm3grin2orange:



Hah hah ;D


----------



## porky616

(can anyone tell me how you get the circlip of this 660 with the machined step in the machined retaining washer? :censored: My mate couldn't get it off either which is why I ran it with a 7 pin).

well one thing for sure is ya dont put ya finger in the way of the screwdriver when ya spit the dummy and try to pry it off. lotsa swearing and blood is sure to follow. 880 is easy it just pops the clip off mid cut


----------



## Andyshine77

Matt the clip snaps off like on any other saw, I never had an issue with my long forgotten 660.


----------



## blsnelling

Use the little orange carb tuning screw driver.


----------



## wigglesworth

blsnelling said:


> Use the little orange carb tuning screw driver.



Yep. Just went thru that today. Some of the clips can be a pain in the hiney, but that little carb screwdriver will pop them off quick like. Dont know why, but they do.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> Matt the clip snaps off like on any other saw, I never had an issue with my long forgotten 660.



Tried that. It certainly doesn't snap out like any other saw I have 



blsnelling said:


> Use the little orange carb tuning screw driver.



Tried that.



wigglesworth said:


> Yep. Just went thru that today. Some of the clips can be a pain in the hiney, but that little carb screwdriver will pop them off quick like. Dont know why, but they do.



Tried this too :censored:

Obviously Brad has got the clip off but I could not raise the clip above the machined recess in the "washer". The recessed part is the same size as the washer.

I know it comes out but it ceratinly isn't as easy as any other saw I've worked on. Normally it's a pressed steel washer, this thing is a solid lump of machined steel.


----------



## wigglesworth

MCW said:


> Tried that. It certainly doesn't snap out like any other saw I have
> 
> 
> 
> Tried that.
> 
> 
> 
> Tried this too :censored:
> 
> Obviously Brad has got the clip off but I could not raise the clip above the machined recess in the "washer". The recessed part is the same size as the washer.
> 
> I know it comes out but it ceratinly isn't as easy as any other saw I've worked on. Normally it's a pressed steel washer, this thing is a solid lump of machined steel.



I have a few washers like that. You should still be able to push the washer in, and pry the clip out??? Sometimes they are a bear, but I have always been able to remove them. I think your just not holding your mouth right...


----------



## MCW

wigglesworth said:


> I have a few washers like that. You should still be able to push the washer in, and pry the clip out??? Sometimes they are a bear, but I have always been able to remove them. I think your just not holding your mouth right...



I had my tongue on the left and my tongue on the right. I swore, I spat on it, I lifted it, I broke the end off a small electrical screwdriver :censored:

I had my left leg off the ground, my right leg...

Had a beer, tried again...

Alas...

Honestly, I gave up. Not easily but I regrettably did. If I'd have owned this saw it may have ended up with one of those sprockets you hear of worn down to the crank


----------



## Stihlman441

I had one of those washers with the bad recess sow i put it in a lathe and turned some of the recess away,all is good know. I can take pic if required.


----------



## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> Use the little orange carb tuning screw driver.




The tip of a scrench works best for me!


Mike


----------



## Rudolf73

My 460 came with the same machined step washer and I had quite a bit of trouble getting it off, so I replaced it with one of those pressed washers instead. The clip is really easy to take off now - like it should be.


----------



## MostShady1

Rudolf73 said:


> My 460 came with the same machined step washer and I had quite a bit of trouble getting it off, so I replaced it with one of those pressed washers instead. The clip is really easy to take off now - like it should be.



+1

Out with the old, in with the easy!


----------



## MCW

My mate got back home with the 660 and said the clip came straight off :censored:

Must have just been my poor technique


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> My mate got back home with the 660 and said the clip came straight off :censored:
> 
> Must have just been my poor technique



Ain't that just the way? :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Ain't that just the way? :hmm3grin2orange:



I actually rang him Al expecting him to say "this clip sucks mate and now I know what you were bitc#ing about" but nah, it came straight off according to him :censored:


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> I actually rang him Al expecting him to say "this clip sucks mate and now I know what you were bitc#ing about" but nah, it came straight off according to him :censored:



We've all been there mate, more than once.


----------



## MCW

OK back again gents and cranking this long forgotten thread back up...

Well I rang my mate last week who "stole" the 660 and asked him how it went on the tree job he had the week after he "pinched" it off me.
Apologise about the language but these were his words exactly...

"No sh*t, f*#k that thing cuts..."

I asked him again and got the same answer. I'm not sure what grade he made it to at school but his vocabulary is normally far more advanced than that. Although unsure I translated his comments to mean this...

"Well Matt, I have never, ever used a saw that has exhibited such mind blowing cutting speed and I will never, ever regret selling my piece of crap, boat anchor 880. Good job old chap and I got a dandy deal here. Thank Brad for me".

Anyway, I think he is very very impressed by his new toy, sorry, tool.

I managed to get a short vid on the weekend comparing my new 390XP and Dolkita 7901. Although the bar lengths were different and so were the chains it will give you some idea of how these saws perform against one another. The Makita had freshly sharpened Stihl semi chisel (not even sure of the chain code?) however the rakers were probably a tad low for wood like this harder Casuarina log - this wood was from some 30-35 year old trees and is quite hard compared to the other Casuarinas I've been felling. In something like Pine etc this setup would be sensational as far as semi chisel goes.
The 390XP had a very well setup Carlton semi chisel chain, also freshly sharpened.
Both saws had 8 pins and the torque of this 7901 is quite awesome for what it is - no way would a stock 7900/7901 pull a chain set up like the one in this video. It would have been bogdown city.
Another lot of videos I want to do is a comparison between brand new, out of the box Stihl RSC and a properly set up semi chisel chain - I doubt that there will be much difference in cutting speed - time will tell. If there is any it will be negligible.

Another thing too, I have just bought a house so when the finances are all said and done I'm going to reassess the funds and you may very well see a MS660 and 395XP comparo from Brad if he's keen. I still miss having a play with that 660 before I sold it, sorry, before it was stolen from me. I'd like to give one a crack for more than just 2 odd cuts...


<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5UDHYhvuOrE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5UDHYhvuOrE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I'll get more videos later comparing a whole heap of saws  just because we like vids here


----------



## parrisw

Nice work! I look forward to the 660 and 395 builds!


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> I look forward to the 660 and 395 builds!



Finger's crossed that it happens  If our exchange rate stays where it is it should get the green light...


----------



## blsnelling

I'm curious here Matt. I keep seeing the older 390XPG. Is it stronger than the new 390XP?


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Finger's crossed that it happens  If our exchange rate stays where it is it should get the green light...



Cool, can't wait.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> I'm curious here Matt. I keep seeing the older 390XPG. Is it stronger than the new 390XP?



Haven't got around to a side by side comparo yet Brad but I really don't think there is much in it mate. If anything the XP has slightly more torque than the XPG - maybe? The video above is the XP though, not the XPG.
Will try to get a side by side video comparo soon. The next few weekends are booked up so will do my best. I've got a few logs out the back so no problem there 
In all honesty if I was blindfolded and cutting (scary thought!) I probably couldn't tell the difference!


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> The video above is the XP though, not the XPG.
> Will try to get a side by side video comparo soon.



No rush. I was just curious because the text in the video said it was the XPG. I thought maybe you were having trouble staying warm down there


----------



## mdavlee

Be nice to see the 660/395 comparison. I need to get some more wood to play with to make some videos of the 394.


----------



## blsnelling

I've not built a 395, but the 394 I had was very torquey. Will be interesting for sure.


----------



## mdavlee

JJ and someone else said the 394 has more torque than the 395. I've never run a 395 to compare to. The 394 seems to have way more torque than the 660 had.


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> JJ and someone else said the 394 has more torque than the 395. I've never run a 395 to compare to. The 394 seems to have way more torque than the 660 had.



Yes I agree with that, I've said it many times.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Can't remember, what was the compression on the Husky's Matt?


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> No rush. I was just curious because the text in the video said it was the XPG. I thought maybe you were having trouble staying warm down there



I must have booed booed on the text  Starting to get cold. Ice on the ground yesterday morning 



AUSSIE1 said:


> Can't remember, what was the compression on the Husky's Matt?



Hi Al. Compression on both of the 390's is around 150psi I think. I'd hate to see one of these things with 190-200psi...


----------



## mdavlee

I think it would take a big popup to get them to 190 or so. I think one with 170 or so would be a good improvement.


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> I must have booed booed on the text  Starting to get cold. Ice on the ground yesterday morning
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Al. Compression on both of the 390's is around 150psi I think. I'd hate to see one of these things with 190-200psi...



I'd love to see one with that much.




mdavlee said:


> I think it would take a big popup to get them to 190 or so. I think one with 170 or so would be a good improvement.



I machined one for a guy, he told me it had 190psi, that was with .035 popup.


----------



## mdavlee

That's not as big of one as I thought it would take. I guess you did those for Daniel with the popups?


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> I'd love to see one with that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I machined one for a guy, he told me it had 190psi, that was with .035 popup.



Plus you would get the Ex closer to a more realistic no.


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> That's not as big of one as I thought it would take. I guess you did those for Daniel with the popups?



Yes they were for Daniel, I've done 4 for him now.



AUSSIE1 said:


> Plus you would get the Ex closer to a more realistic no.



Yes, that one I put a degree wheel on was high that's for sure, I was surprised as you were about the numbers on a 390.


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> Yes, that one I put a degree wheel on was high that's for sure, I was surprised as you were about the numbers on a 390.



On that Will, can you remember what you ended up with on the Ex?


----------



## mdavlee

I was going to buy one of them he was putting back together but I got a 394 instead.


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> On that Will, can you remember what you ended up with on the Ex?



Oh, geeze, I can't even remember what colour of underwear I put on today.


EX- 168°
In- 157°
Tr- 123°


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> I was going to buy one of them he was putting back together but I got a 394 instead.



Cool. Did you get the 394 from Daniel?


----------



## mdavlee

No it was from epicklein on here.


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> Oh, geeze, I can't even remember what colour of underwear I put on today.
> 
> 
> EX- 168°
> In- 157°
> Tr- 123°



Sorry mate, I thought you would have recorded it in your little black book! 

As far as your undies, you can keep that info!


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> Sorry mate, I thought you would have recorded it in your little black book!
> 
> As far as your undies, you can keep that info!



Ya, the little black book in is my head, LOL. I hardly every record anything. I probably should start a little book of what I do.


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> I'd love to see one with that much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I machined one for a guy, he told me it had 190psi, that was with .035 popup.



Hmmm. Maybe I can organise Fatguy and Brad to do popups on the MS660 and 395XP if and when I get around to it 
Now that'd be interesting...


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Hmmm. Maybe I can organise Fatguy and Brad to do popups on the MS660 and 395XP if and when I get around to it
> Now that'd be interesting...



Good idea on saws with a high Ex No or/and an increase in comp Matt.


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Hmmm. Maybe I can organise Fatguy and Brad to do popups on the MS660 and 395XP if and when I get around to it
> Now that'd be interesting...



Ya for sure. My 395 has around 200psi, but it has a 2101 piston in it, you can go a little wilder on the ports in a 395 if you use a 2101 piston since its full circle, with a stock 395 which I am building right now if you look in my thread I'm doing on it, there is hardly any room to go wider on the ports.

You know your going to do it anyway, so might as well just pull the pin and open that wallet and get the 395 and 660, my vote is on the 395 to lay a beating on the 660.


----------



## mdavlee

I really think the 395 will beat the 660 pretty bad if the 395 runs like the 394 I've got. I would like to see someone that builds more do it instead of a hillbilly with a dremel like me doing them.


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> Ya for sure. My 395 has around 200psi, but it has a 2101 piston in it, you can go a little wilder on the ports in a 395 if you use a 2101 piston since its full circle, with a stock 395 which I am building right now if you look in my thread I'm doing on it, there is hardly any room to go wider on the ports.
> 
> You know your going to do it anyway, so might as well just pull the pin and open that wallet and get the 395 and 660, my vote is on the 395 to lay a beating on the 660.



Sounds good, may just have to do it then 



mdavlee said:


> I really think the 395 will beat the 660 pretty bad if the 395 runs like the 394 I've got. I would like to see someone that builds more do it instead of a hillbilly with a dremel like me doing them.



Never ever underestimate Hillbilly ingenuity


----------



## mdavlee

MCW said:


> Never ever underestimate Hillbilly ingenuity



Yeah I've impressed myself with the gains I've gotten out of some saws.


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> I really think the 395 will beat the 660 pretty bad if the 395 runs like the 394 I've got. I would like to see someone that builds more do it instead of a hillbilly with a dremel like me doing them.



ha ha ha. We'll see how this one turns out that I'm doing.


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Sounds good, may just have to do it then



Ya! I've got another 395 to build should I just send it your way! LOL I've actually got 4 of them right now!! LOL:jawdrop:


----------



## little possum

parrisw said:


> Ya! I've got another 395 to build should I just send it your way! LOL I've actually got 4 of them right now!! LOL:jawdrop:


:jawdrop:
Ive got one


----------



## 2000ssm6

little possum said:


> :jawdrop:
> Ive got one



Since I doubt me and Will can get together for my 660 to eat his 395 alive, yours will do.


----------



## little possum

2000ssm6 said:


> Since I doubt me and Will can get together for my 660 to eat his 395 alive, yours will do.


Yea, Id hate to see a stock, wore out ol loggers 394 eat a ported 660 for breakfast, lunch and supper 

Now 2k you know that wouldnt be fair.(yet)


----------



## 2000ssm6

little possum said:


> Yea, Id hate to see a stock, wore out ol loggers 394 eat a ported 660 for breakfast, lunch and supper
> 
> Now 2k you know that wouldnt be fair.(yet)



LOL, I will have to tell dad to serve you a peice of Stihl humble pie.

Get that 394 ported and we will duel. I don't see a ported 394 having a problem hangin' with the 660, might even beat it.:Eye::Eye:


----------



## blsnelling

I'll bring my 066 and whip ya both. Nuttin' but an appetizer:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## 2000ssm6

blsnelling said:


> I'll bring my 066 and whip ya both. Nuttin' but an appetizer:hmm3grin2orange:



LOL, better pack a lunch to go along with that appetizer.


----------



## little possum

No need to port it when it outcuts the 660s anyways... :notrolls2:

Maybe oneday.


----------



## blsnelling

2000ssm6 said:


> LOL, better pack a lunch to go along with that appetizer.



I was hoping you'd bring a MS880 for lunch:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## AUSSIE1

little possum said:


> Yea, Id hate to see a stock, wore out ol loggers 394 eat a ported 660 for breakfast, lunch and supper
> 
> Now 2k you know that wouldnt be fair.(yet)



From memory that 'Ole 394 ran very well.

Where's that vid 'Lil pos?


----------



## parrisw

little possum said:


> :jawdrop:
> Ive got one



Well. currently, only 1 runs, one is on the bench getting the full meal deal, the other is next, then the last one, well, is worse off then the one I'm doing now, it needs a full rebuild too, but it'll get it.

Oh did I mention I got a 394 too, used to have 2 of those, but sold one a few moths back.



2000ssm6 said:


> Since I doubt me and Will can get together for my 660 to eat his 395 alive, yours will do.



ha ha. after I'm done opening a can of whoop ass on the 660 with my 395, I'll let my 371 have a turn too!! LOL in 20" wood though


----------



## 2000ssm6

parrisw said:


> ha ha. after I'm done opening a can of whoop ass on the 660 with my 395, I'll let my 371 have a turn too!! LOL in 20" wood though



I'll take the 371 with the old 026, no problem.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## little possum

little possum said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bc8zhRVSkAU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bc8zhRVSkAU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


There is that ol pig

I may have a line on another toasted 394.


----------



## parrisw

2000ssm6 said:


> I'll take the 371 with the old 026, no problem.:biggrinbounce2:



ha ha. Sure

You can talk the talk, but I aint never seen you post anything up showing off your fast saws. Lets see it!



little possum said:


> There is that ol pig
> 
> I may have a line on another toasted 394.



Hmmm. Looks like I'm getting another one too!!! LOL


----------



## little possum

parrisw said:


> ha ha. Sure
> 
> You can talk the talk, but I aint never seen you post anything up showing off your fast saws. Lets see it!


I got some pictures of him running a 390xp, and he was grinning from ear to ear when he felt all that power :monkey:

 Just messin, 2k does have some quick saws


----------



## parrisw

little possum said:


> I got some pictures of him running a 390xp, and he was grinning from ear to ear when he felt all that power :monkey:
> 
> Just messin, 2k does have some quick saws



I'm sure he does. Just never seen it.


----------



## wigglesworth

> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bc8zhRVSkAU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bc8zhRVSkAU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>




That 394 looks like its running pretty good Zach. 

My grandma runs one just like it, but I think hers is a tad bit faster.


----------



## little possum

wigglesworth said:


> That 394 looks like its running pretty good Zach.
> 
> My grandma runs one just like it, but I think hers is a tad bit faster.



Id like to meet her, and shake her hand, well maybe not, she might break my fingers.


----------



## MCW

Sorry for dragging up an old thread but not having a decent go on the modded MS660 had left me feeling a bit hollow inside 
So Brad is doing another one for me. The only difference will be that it will be fitted with a modded BB kit. I got my grubby little mitts on some MS660 BB kits (99cc) with an exceptional finish so have posted one to Brad. The standard internals will be removed and these will not see any use at all - the reasoning for this is resale value. If I decide to sell the saw later factory stock internals will raise the resale significantly.
I was planning to buy a new, local MS660 to try a BB kit on but the Stihl Australia $200 cash back has ended. For the price of a new MS660 here I can land a modded one from the states for about AUD$150 cheaper. Warranty isn't a concern as by fitting a BB kit the Australian warranty would be void anyway.
Looking forward to it's arrival and this time will post vids although the comparison to my 390XP won't be quite as fair with an 10 extra cc for the Stihl  I'll keep everybody posted.


----------



## FATGUY

the last one was a monster. I remember Andre literally putting his knee into it. I bet this one's gonna be even stronger!


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> the last one was a monster. I remember Andre literally putting his knee into it. I bet this one's gonna be even stronger!



Hi Nik.
It'll be a lot stronger if you're game enough to do a pop up for me  Seriously!
Thanks, knew you would...
Matt


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Hi Nik.
> It'll be a lot stronger if you're game enough to do a pop up for me  Seriously!
> Thanks, knew you would...
> Matt


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


>



Cool  I hope the piston is good enough. The whole setup is excellent. Even a better finish than the factory P&C from the last 660. These little Chinamen are getting pretty good. I also got a couple of 372XP BB kits with a good finish. Very impressive. Not Mahle impressive but pretty damn close.
I'm in for the pop up if you and Brad are!


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Cool  I hope the piston is good enough. The whole setup is excellent. Even a better finish than the factory P&C from the last 660. These little Chinamen are getting pretty good. I also got a couple of 372XP BB kits with a good finish. Very impressive. Not Mahle impressive but pretty damn close.
> I'm in for the pop up if you and Brad are!



this is a work saw so we'll go as big as is safe. Is the piston domed or flat?


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> this is a work saw so we'll go as big as is safe. Is the piston domed or flat?



Flat  or  ??


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Flat  or  ??



is the crown a dome (hemispherical) or is it flat?


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> the last one was a monster. I remember Andre literally putting his knee into it. I bet this one's gonna be even stronger!



My mate that bought that last 660 still won't shut up about how fast it cuts. He does not regret selling his 880 one little bit. He's even been felling trees for the local council and even they've commented on it - all he has run is a 25" bar and Carlton Semi Chisel Skip with an 8 pin.


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> is the crown a dome (hemispherical) or is it flat?



Sorry Nik. It's flat.

My  and  smilies were there as in is flat a good thing or bad? I'm thinking good?


----------



## mdavlee

Well this is going to be interesting now. It'll be good you get a 660 to go up against the 390s. It'll be hard for the 390 to catch up with the BB kit with the cc disadvantage.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Well this is going to be interesting now. It'll be good you get a 660 to go up against the 390s. It'll be hard for the 390 to catch up with the BB kit with the cc disadvantage.



Yeah I have a feeling with a modded BB kit it will be getting close to my 3120 with bars maybe up to 36".
I have a feeling I'll end up selling the 390XPG - oh and changing the 660 studs to 9mm


----------



## mdavlee

Well you'll have to mod the 3120 next.:greenchainsaw:


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Well you'll have to mod the 3120 next.:greenchainsaw:



Fixed high jet. It can stay the way it is  Just posting it to Brad to mod would cost $500 for a boat anchor like that thing


----------



## FATGUY

MCW said:


> Sorry Nik. It's flat.
> 
> My  and  smilies were there as in is flat a good thing or bad? I'm thinking good?



I prefer flat, but really makes no difference. Was more curious than anything.


----------



## MCW

FATGUY said:


> I prefer flat, but really makes no difference. Was more curious than anything.



I'm getting Brad to have a good look over the kit but I have a funny feeling it'll be the same MS660/066 BB kits as sold by everybody else in the world.


----------



## blsnelling

I'm glad to see you're giving the 660 another chance. The BB kit that I have on my 066 right now is the first 066/660 that ever really wowed me. Don't get me wrong, they all run well, but this gen of BB kits runs awesome. Mine doesn't have a popup either, so yours may be just that much stronger. Your saw is ordered and should be here tomorrow.


----------



## mtngun

MCW said:


> Cool  I hope the piston is good enough. The whole setup is excellent. Even a better finish than the factory P&C from the last 660. These little Chinamen are getting pretty good. I also got a couple of 372XP BB kits with a good finish. Very impressive. Not Mahle impressive but pretty damn close.
> I'm in for the pop up if you and Brad are!


I look forward to seeing Brad's write-up on this mystery BB.

If it is the same kit as sold by Bailey's, then a pop-up may not be an option. The top land is not that tall, and the bore plating does not go all the way to the top. The new Bailey's kits have good compression in stock form, anyway.

I think there is another brand of BB out there, though. You see them on the bay from time to time. Possibly Golf ? Also some of the older generation Taiwan kits still on the market.


----------



## MCW

Thanks for the replies guys. If these photos of the actual MS660 BB kit being used ring a few bells with anybody then let me know. I'm sure the guys that have seen a few of these kits will be able to tell if they are a common kit or not.


----------



## blsnelling

Do you have a pic of the combustion chamber?


----------



## AUSSIE1

mdavlee said:


> Well this is going to be interesting now. It'll be good you get a 660 to go up against the 390s. It'll be hard for the 390 to catch up with the BB kit with the cc disadvantage.



The BB kit will be a 11 odd cc's more so is basically in a higher bracket.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Matt can you do us a favour and measure the skirt width?


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> Do you have a pic of the combustion chamber?



Sorry Brad I don't have a photo. At the time my phone camera wasn't good enough to focus properly. I do have a 372XP BB kit here though. The other few kits I had are now gone.



AUSSIE1 said:


> Matt can you do us a favour and measure the skirt width?



Sorry Al no can do mate. The other 660 BB kit was posted to Aaron (porky616) yesterday. You might get your 372 BB kit today


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Sorry Al no can do mate. The other 660 BB kit was posted to Aaron (porky616) yesterday. You might get your 372 BB kit today



That's cool mate, I'll get Aaron to give it a measure.

Thanks mate, I'll keep my eye's out.


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> That's cool mate, I'll get Aaron to give it a measure.
> 
> Thanks mate, I'll keep my eye's out.





Oh and that beastly 142 kit was in the same package plus some Save Edge 7/32" files. Me thinks you'll struggle porting that 142 kit


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Oh and that beastly 142 kit was in the same package plus some Save Edge 7/32" files. Me thinks you'll struggle porting that 142 kit



Onya mate...


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Onya mate...



Easy peasy Japaneasy


----------



## AUSSIE1

mtngun said:


> I look forward to seeing Brad's write-up on this mystery BB.
> 
> If it is the same kit as sold by Bailey's, then a pop-up may not be an option. The top land is not that tall, and the bore plating does not go all the way to the top. The new Bailey's kits have good compression in stock form, anyway.
> 
> I think there is another brand of BB out there, though. You see them on the bay from time to time. Possibly Golf ? Also some of the older generation Taiwan kits still on the market.



The latest 372 BB kit looked the same but I find it hard to tell if it's lacking nikasil or that it hasn't been honed to the top.

I have had it turned by .025 thou, .018 squish so we will see how it hold's up.


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Easy peasy Japaneasy



Lil' Petey! 

:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> The latest 372 BB kit looked the same but I find it hard to tell if it's lacking nikasil or that it hasn't been honed to the top.
> 
> I have had it turned by .025 thou, .018 squish so we will see how it hold's up.



The other 372XP BB kit I have here Al sounds similar. A more tuned eyeball may know but to me it looks like the Nikasil stops a few mm from the top of the combustion chamber.



AUSSIE1 said:


> Lil' Petey!
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:



Easy Peasey Chineasy


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Sorry for dragging up an old thread but not having a decent go on the modded MS660 had left me feeling a bit hollow inside
> So Brad is doing another one for me. The only difference will be that it will be fitted with a modded BB kit. I got my grubby little mitts on some MS660 BB kits (99cc) with an exceptional finish so have posted one to Brad. The standard internals will be removed and these will not see any use at all - the reasoning for this is resale value. If I decide to sell the saw later factory stock internals will raise the resale significantly.
> I was planning to buy a new, local MS660 to try a BB kit on but the Stihl Australia $200 cash back has ended. For the price of a new MS660 here I can land a modded one from the states for about AUD$150 cheaper. Warranty isn't a concern as by fitting a BB kit the Australian warranty would be void anyway.
> Looking forward to it's arrival and this time will post vids although the comparison to my 390XP won't be quite as fair with an 10 extra cc for the Stihl  I'll keep everybody posted.



Cool, can't wait to see the outcome. 

But what happened to getting a 395? Come on you know you want to!!!!!!


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

i have almost 8 hours in reading this whole thread today, and i have learned a great deal. the most important thing i learned today is i have ALOT more learning to do! from porting to BB's to which chain is good for what, etc. my mind is dizzy from it all! 
i just wanted to post to say thanks to all of you very knowledgeable people. you make it so much easier for guys like me to get a handle on things.
sorry for the thread jack, but i felt i had to give credit where credit is due. a big ole sincere thanks to you all!!!


----------



## flushcut

MCW said:


> Sorry for dragging up an old thread but not having a decent go on the modded MS660 had left me feeling a bit hollow inside
> So Brad is doing another one for me. The only difference will be that it will be fitted with a modded BB kit. I got my grubby little mitts on some MS660 BB kits (99cc) with an exceptional finish so have posted one to Brad. The standard internals will be removed and these will not see any use at all - the reasoning for this is resale value. If I decide to sell the saw later factory stock internals will raise the resale significantly.
> I was planning to buy a new, local MS660 to try a BB kit on but the Stihl Australia $200 cash back has ended. For the price of a new MS660 here I can land a modded one from the states for about AUD$150 cheaper. Warranty isn't a concern as by fitting a BB kit the Australian warranty would be void anyway.
> Looking forward to it's arrival and this time will post vids although the comparison to my 390XP won't be quite as fair with an 10 extra cc for the Stihl  I'll keep everybody posted.


Once more into the breach dear friends!


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> Cool, can't wait to see the outcome.
> 
> But what happened to getting a 395? Come on you know you want to!!!!!!



Yeah I know I know...
Maybe when I win the lottery 



chopperfreak2k1 said:


> i have almost 8 hours in reading this whole thread today, and i have learned a great deal. the most important thing i learned today is i have ALOT more learning to do! from porting to BB's to which chain is good for what, etc. my mind is dizzy from it all!
> i just wanted to post to say thanks to all of you very knowledgeable people. you make it so much easier for guys like me to get a handle on things.
> sorry for the thread jack, but i felt i had to give credit where credit is due. a big ole sincere thanks to you all!!!



There are lots of knowledgeable people on this site. What you've done is by no means thread jacking 



flushcut said:


> Once more into the breach dear friends!



Yep. Its a disease. 

If it makes people feel better though I'll probably sell my 390XPG and my Makita to cover the costs of this 660. I'll put a stock top end back on the Makita though and transfer the modded top end to one of my Dolmar 7900's.


----------



## porky616

shouldnt have looked at this thread, got me all excited again. got the old 66 all polished ready to go and got 4 wood orders today. oh well one last run as a stock 66


----------



## AUSSIE1

porky616 said:


> shouldnt have looked at this thread, got me all excited again. got the old 66 all polished ready to go and got 4 wood orders today. oh well one last run as a stock 66



Aaron can you do me a favour mate and measure the skirt width on the kit piston?


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Yeah I know I know...
> Maybe when I win the lottery



Well, what ya waiting for?


----------



## porky616

AUSSIE1 said:


> Aaron can you do me a favour mate and measure the skirt width on the kit piston?



yeah mate no worries will do


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Aaron can you do me a favour mate and measure the skirt width on the kit piston?



Luckily you mentioned piston. He'd have been running around the main street with a tape measure accosting unsuspecting females...



parrisw said:


> Well, what ya waiting for?



I suppose I'd better buy a lottery ticket then


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> Well, what ya waiting for?



He has such a desire for that outboard clutch Will.................not!


----------



## blsnelling

I've got a brand new MS660 here. It didn't cost me a dime so I'll take the highest bid over $800:greenchainsaw:


----------



## rms61moparman

blsnelling said:


> I've got a brand new MS660 here. It didn't cost me a dime so I'll take the highest bid over $800:greenchainsaw:







Be a real pity for a guy to have to come all the way from Australia to kick a couple butts!!!LOL


Mike


----------



## blsnelling

rms61moparman said:


> Be a real pity for a guy to have to come all the way from Australia to kick a couple butts!!!LOL
> 
> 
> Mike



Maybe we can arrange for that to happen at Eric's GTG


----------



## blsnelling

A few more pics.


Brand new in a sealed box.


----------



## blsnelling

Filled it up with Stihl Ultra 50:1, popped on the 4th pull, started on the 7th. I ran it long enough to get oil flowing, just to make sure everything was in order.


----------



## blsnelling

Oh....I forgot to mention, there'll be no factory warranty on this saw, lol. This is what it looked like about 30 minutes after coming out of the box. The oiler was upgraded with the HO piston and control bolt.


----------



## blsnelling

What's all the spooge in this transfer?













And what's up with this piston?


----------



## mdavlee

That doesn't look real good there. I wonder what happened to their mold.


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

that piston looks used!


----------



## blsnelling

chopperfreak2k1 said:


> that piston looks used!



Brand new. Probably not 2 minutes of warm up time. Never even got hot.


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

thats a damn shame


----------



## parrisw

What a POS! Good thing there is a Chicom BB going in it. ha ha ha ha ha


----------



## Rudolf73

Will you be putting a DP muffler cover on that saw Brad ?


----------



## splitpost

*Wtf*

:jawdrop::jawdrop:that topend looks like it's been wet,looks like the ally has oxidised ,what the bottom end like?


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> What a POS! Good thing there is a Chicom BB going in it. ha ha ha ha ha



Lol...

Going by what Matt has said about the kit, it might be a nicer unit!


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> Lol...
> 
> Going by what Matt has said about the kit, it might be a nicer unit!



Ya, LOL, can't wait to see what the BB kit looks like.


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> Ya, LOL, can't wait to see what the BB kit looks like.



Hi Will. Al mentioned you may be chasing a BB kit for your 372 so if interested PM me your address and I'll sort out a price. I have one remaining 372 BB kit (Al should be receiving the other one any day) and it is excellent. In all honesty mate I should be able to land it to you for less than USD$100. Even with monster freight costs I won't be making a loss. I am still waiting on two 395XP BB kits for testing plus some BB Dolmar kits. I'll be getting a lot more in soon for all sorts of saws however at this stage am having a few tested and checked by a few guys on this site just to make sure they run as good as they look. They look really good and I am very impressed.

Hi splitpost. Any hint of oxidation must have come from the poorer photo. These kits are perfect with the exception of the 372XP BB kit sent to Al which only had a slight grinder mishap when little Chinaman was I assume grinding bevels off the ports. Only cosmetic though but I'll let Al judge that. I'm just selling them, he's the expert


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Hi Will. Al mentioned you may be chasing a BB kit for your 372 so if interested PM me your address and I'll sort out a price. I have one remaining 372 BB kit (Al should be receiving the other one any day) and it is excellent. In all honesty mate I should be able to land it to you for less than USD$100. Even with monster freight costs I won't be making a loss. I am still waiting on two 395XP BB kits for testing plus some BB Dolmar kits. I'll be getting a lot more in soon for all sorts of saws however at this stage am having a few tested and checked by a few guys on this site just to make sure they run as good as they look. They look really good and I am very impressed.
> 
> Hi splitpost. Any hint of oxidation must have come from the poorer photo. These kits are perfect with the exception of the 372XP BB kit sent to Al which only had a slight grinder mishap when little Chinaman was I assume grinding bevels off the ports. Only cosmetic though but I'll let Al judge that. I'm just selling them, he's the expert



Cool PM coming your way man!!


----------



## 2000ssm6

So what happened to the 390???:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## little possum

I cant imagine working on a brand spankin new saw, with no DIRT!!!


----------



## parrisw

2000ssm6 said:


> So what happened to the 390???:hmm3grin2orange:



Its still there waiting to lay a whopping on this 660.


----------



## MCW

2000ssm6 said:


> So what happened to the 390???:hmm3grin2orange:



Still got it  It's a great saw and definately will not be getting sold. Because of our high exchange rate I can basically import a 660, use it, sell it, and not lose a cent 
Stihl saws are very pricey out here...


----------



## Rudolf73

MCW said:


> Still got it  It's a great saw and definately will not be getting sold. Because of our high exchange rate I can basically import a 660, use it, sell it, and not lose a cent
> Stihl saws are very pricey out here...



Hmmmm, wish I had a need for a ported 660...


----------



## splitpost

MCW said:


> Hi splitpost. Any hint of oxidation must have come from the poorer photo. These kits are perfect with the exception of the 372XP BB kit sent to Al which only had a slight grinder mishap when little Chinaman was I assume grinding bevels off the ports. Only cosmetic though but I'll let Al judge that. I'm just selling them, he's the expert



i was referring to the 660 top end photos


----------



## MCW

splitpost said:


> i was referring to the 660 top end photos



Sorry mate. Do you mean the original OEM top end right at the start of this thread or the photos of the aftermarket BB kit that I posted a couple of days back? The MS660 BB kit is excellent.


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> Cool PM coming your way man!!



Here are actual photos of the kit that I'm sending to you mate


----------



## splitpost

yeah the oem top that brad had pics of,sorry should have quoted the post i was reffering to:greenchainsaw:


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Here are actual photos of the kit that I'm sending to you mate



Awesome!! That looks really good from the pics.

Will


----------



## MCW

splitpost said:


> yeah the oem top that brad had pics of,sorry should have quoted the post i was reffering to:greenchainsaw:



No worries mate - I hoped that was what you meant  Yeah the original OEM top end off that 660 was pretty average. Of course when Brad tidied it up it looked fine. Straight off the bat the MS660 BB kits that I got hold of needed no tidy up work done at all. They are very very impressive kits


----------



## porky616

got mine today thanks matt, to change it over tonight or not. big decisions


----------



## MCW

porky616 said:


> got mine today thanks matt, to change it over tonight or not. big decisions



Good stuff. What's your initial impression of the quality? Change it tonight - the famiy will understand then use it all weekend 

And don't tell me you haven't looked yet or you wouldn't have typed your post just then


----------



## porky616

mate i been all over it like a fat kid in a lolly shop, and it sure does look very nice. very impressed with the quality, thought i would have to crutch a few dags off but its clean as.


----------



## MCW

porky616 said:


> mate i been all over it like a fat kid in a lolly shop, and it sure does look very nice. very impressed with the quality, thought i would have to crutch a few dags off but its clean as.



Dag away old son  Then put the bastard on 
Then get your spotlight and go cut something!


----------



## MCW

I'm spewing - I completely missed page 47 of this thread and hadn't even seen the pictures of the new MS660's OEM internals. Sorry Brad for not saying anything and sorry to splitpost - I should have known what you meant mate 
So two 660's out of two had crappy internals. Pretty solid evidence that Stihl have dropped the ball. I can honestly say that these MS660 BB kits wipe the floor with the OEM parts as far as visual quality goes at least.
To think that the MS660's are basically their premier pro saw too


----------



## MCW

Um I think I may have just spotted an issue with the 372XP BB kit on it's way to Will. I assume Al's kit would be the same...
No biggy but may suggest these kits are not the same as others on the market...

Anybody notice something? Or actually a LACK of something!


----------



## tdi-rick

MCW said:


> [snip]
> 
> Anybody notice something? Or actually a LACK of something!



Oops.

Nothing a quick drill won't fix


----------



## Tzed250

blsnelling said:


> What's all the spooge in this transfer?




Very interesting choice of words. 


Please see the common definition here:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/iphone/#define?term=spooge


----------



## Rudolf73

Tzed250 said:


> Very interesting choice of words.
> 
> 
> Please see the common definition here:
> 
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/iphone/#define?term=spooge



Hahaha, good ol' urban dictionary - have you tried searching names on there... lol


----------



## MCW

MCW said:


> Um I think I may have just spotted an issue with the 372XP BB kit on it's way to Will. I assume Al's kit would be the same...
> No biggy but may suggest these kits are not the same as others on the market...
> 
> Anybody notice something? Or actually a LACK of something!



OK. Just heard back from the supplier and Al and it looks like Will is the only one to have lucked out on the hole! Supplier very upset though and said he'll be more thorough when checking future kits he has in stock.


----------



## chopperfreak2k1

thats a hell of a slip up from the manufacturer!!


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> OK. Just heard back from the supplier and Al and it looks like Will is the only one to have lucked out on the hole! Supplier very upset though and said he'll be more thorough when checking future kits he has in stock.



HA HA thats funny!!! Wont be a problem


----------



## AUSSIE1

chopperfreak2k1 said:


> thats a hell of a slip up from the manufacturer!!



Yeah? You reckon that's bad!


----------



## little possum

May I ask, exactly how that happens?

Are the holes drilled after the molding, or is it part of the mold.


----------



## blsnelling

I was finally able to get started on Matt's new MS660. I've already run into a couple issues with the BB kit he provided. Keep in mind, this is not from Baileys, so your mileage may vary.

1. The bottom of the exhaust port free-ports when the piston is at TDC. This was corrected in Baileys latest edition.

2. The piston skirts ever so slightly made contact with the case at BDC. It would have been entirely possible to bolt this topend on and start it up. Then the piston grows, it gets longer, and before you know it, boom, you've busted a piston skirt. So I slightly relieved the case for it to clear. This does not hurt the structure of the case, or prevent it from going back to stock.

3. The exhaust port is flat, or worse. It's higher on the one side than in the middle. This means I'll have to raise the exhaust to get a proper shape, which leads to the next issue.

4. The exhaust port is very high. It's at 94° ATDC, much higher than I would ever want one for a work saw. It's going to end up even higher since I have to shape the roof of the port. I'll just have to see how it turns out.


*Stock Port Timing*
Exhaust - 94° - 172° duration
Transfers - 118° - 124°
Intake - 81° - 162° duration
Blowdown - 24°


----------



## Jacob J.

little possum said:


> May I ask, exactly how that happens?
> 
> Are the holes drilled after the molding, or is it part of the mold.



In most cases, they're done afterward as a part of the final machining.


----------



## little possum

Thanks JJ!

Brad, how does the plating look?


----------



## gink595

I'll be curious to see what the compression is with the exhaust that high.


----------



## blsnelling

gink595 said:


> I'll be curious to see what the compression is with the exhaust that high.




Seriously


----------



## mdavlee

Did that kit come from a different manufacturer or is it one of the older kits that baileys uses I wonder?


----------



## Andyshine77

What's the squish?


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> Did that kit come from a different manufacturer or is it one of the older kits that baileys uses I wonder?



We're not sure. It has many of the signatures of the previous generation Baileys kit, except the combustion chamber is cleaner. The last gen from Baileys has raised the floor of the exhaust port to fix the free-porting issue, greatly improved the combustion chamber, and I believe reduced the size of the combustion chamber. I have a prototype of the last gen, and it screams. It's the first ported 066 I've done that made me go wow.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> What's the squish?



About .025 with the original gasket. I now have it set to .018-.020.


----------



## mtngun

From Brad's photos of the OEM 660 P&C (thanks Brad )

That dark ring at the top of the bore is suspicious. 

If the saw has been run, the dark ring may merely be carbon, which is normal on a jug that has been used. 

You shouldn't see a dark ring on an unused jug, though. If you do, chances are it is missing plating and/or it was gouged by the boring bar that cuts the squish band.


----------



## blsnelling

mtngun said:


> From Brad's photos of the OEM 660 P&C (thanks Brad )
> 
> That dark ring at the top of the bore is suspicious.
> 
> If the saw has been run, the dark ring may merely be carbon, which is normal on a jug that has been used.
> 
> You shouldn't see a dark ring on an unused jug, though. If you do, chances are it is missing plating and/or it was gouged by the boring bar that cuts the squish band.



It only has a couple minutes on it, not enough to even get it hot.


----------



## mdavlee

blsnelling said:


> We're not sure. It has many of the signatures of the previous generation Baileys kit, except the combustion chamber is cleaner. The last gen from Baileys has raised the floor of the exhaust port to fix the free-porting issue, greatly improved the combustion chamber, and I believe reduced the size of the combustion chamber. I have a prototype of the last gen, and it screams. It's the first ported 066 I've done that made me go wow.



That's what I was wondering. I heard the last generation was way better than the others. I almost want to try a 660 again.


----------



## mtngun

blsnelling said:


> It only has a couple minutes on it, not enough to even get it hot.


Right. 

So I'm very suspicious that the dark ring is a bad spot. Prolly fine with the stock piston, but a pop-up piston in that jug may be out of the question.


----------



## porky616

ive installed the other 066bb kit that matt had on my old magnum. i did nothing other than a new set of rings, bolt it on and start cutting. very impressed with it but its the first bb kit ive used. have put 6 tanks of juice through it so far and its as strong as. will get some compression readings after work and post em here for everyone to see.


----------



## blsnelling

porky616 said:


> ive installed the other 066bb kit that matt had on my old magnum. i did nothing other than a new set of rings, bolt it on and start cutting. very impressed with it but its the first bb kit ive used. have put 6 tanks of juice through it so far and its as strong as. will get some compression readings after work and post em here for everyone to see.



Did you check skirt to case clearance? This one only touched slightly, but could be heard and felt rocking the flywheel back and forth. I clearanced the case, and cleared it up.

Have you checked compression?


----------



## FATGUY

mtngun said:


> Right.
> 
> So I'm very suspicious that the dark ring is a bad spot. Prolly fine with the stock piston, but a pop-up piston in that jug may be out of the question.



I'd love to do a pop-up for him but can not lower the jug anymore. Plus with the squish already set at .018, you won't get much from a pop-up.


----------



## blsnelling

FATGUY said:


> I'd love to do a pop-up for him but can not lower the jug anymore. Plus with the squish already set at .018, you won't get much from a pop-up.



He was referencing the original topend


----------



## porky616

blsnelling said:


> Did you check skirt to case clearance? This one only touched slightly, but could be heard and felt rocking the flywheel back and forth. I clearanced the case, and cleared it up.
> 
> Have you checked compression?



skirt cleared ok no tapping or knocks, aint checked compresion yet, long day at work


----------



## MCW

Thanks for the feedback on the kit Brad. As mentioned in my email to you I have passed on your information to the Chinese supplier who assures me he will look into it. 
Will received one of the 372XP BB kits today so I'll wait to see what he finds after he runs it.
Basically I was contacted via email by a Chinese supplier who I gather saw my contact details from this site. Initially I was sceptical but a few of the attached pictures in his email got my attention. After shooting a few emails back and forth we came to the agreement that he would send me 2 x 372XP BB kits, 2 x 395XP BB kits, and 2 x 066/660 BB kits to test. He also has sent 4 bars to test however DHL has lost this parcel  In all honesty the bars don't interest me.
The 2 x 395XP BB kits were getting sent later and may or may not have arrived. I am in Tasmania getting stuck into some trees and having a ball so unsure if the parcel has arrived at my work (I'll post videos and pictures when I return to the mainland  ).
All of these kits have been sent to AS members to test. So far the 372XP BB kit sent to Al (AUSSIE1) did not come up to scratch as whoever had ground the casting dags off one of the ports had got a bit too excited. Al said that particular kit would not have made compression. The kit that went to Will had the hole missing to access the cylinder bolts so both 372XP BB kits had faults.
To my supplier's credit he is sending replacement kits and was quite upset that I have had issues. At this stage 3 out of the 4 kits have had issues so slowly does it at my end. I'll wait to see how Aaron's BB kit on his 066 goes after a few hours of use.
Once these issues are sorted I will only be continuing with the kits that I am confident in even if that means dumping the 066/660 BB kits from my inventory.
With the current pricing and our exchange rate I should be able to land these kits anywhere in the US or Canada for under USD$100 but won't be doing so for a few months yet. I'll wait to see the outcome of the Husky kits first.
I'm in no rush 

Oh and by the way the Makita and the 390XP in this thread are absolute weapons. That Makita has been wearing a 24" bar and the 390 a 32" bar and they are making mince meat of Stringybark and very hard Tasmanian Blue Gum while away


----------



## blsnelling

I'm back to the drawing board with the OEM topend. Here are the specs with the original gasket.

Squish .020"
Exhaust - 94°
Transfers - 120°
Intake - 80°
Blowdown - 26°

The exhaust is just as high, but will not have to be raised to get a good shape. Also, I'll be doing a popup on this piston, gaining back some of the compression lost with the high exhaust port timing.


----------



## Grande Dog

Howdy All,
If these kits are coming from China, they are not from the same manufacturer as ours. I might have mentioned this before but, there is a push of knock offs of the knock offs. They're even knocking off the packaging. The companies we deal with have started putting the Taiwan flag on their packaging, and soon it'll be on the product. They're doing this because it's one thing the Chinese wont copy.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## mtngun

Grande Dog said:


> If these kits are coming from China, they are not from the same manufacturer as ours.


Thanks for the info, Grande Dog. I didn't think your supplier would be selling "your" kits behind your back. 

To get me to switch to the Chinese kits, I'd have to see plating that goes all the way to the top, sane port timing, and superior compression. 

At the moment NWP top ends seem to be better quality than either recent OEM or these Chinese knock-offs. 

That's not to say that NWP kits could not be improved further.


----------



## AUSSIE1

mtngun said:


> At the moment NWP top ends seem to be better quality than either recent OEM or these Chinese knock-offs.



Not going by, particularly the last 372BB I fitted. The kit Will has sounds to be a vastly better barrel.

In the last 372BB NWP Kit I fitted. A tilted exhaust port that was lower in the centre. I had to take the duration to 161° to get the correct shape. I had to elongate the mounting holes for the screws to take. The combustion chamber had really bad sand casting that needed some work. I had to tap out further the thread for the antivibe spring screw.


----------



## MCW

The biggest problem with Chinese manufacturers is that they don't care who they sell to. My supplier is pulling kits from a number of sources and not manufacturing any of these P&C kits themselves. Even I don't know where these kits are coming from and whether some of them are the same as the Bailey's kits or not. Nothing can be guaranteed in China


----------



## mtngun

MCW said:


> Nothing can be guaranteed in China


The Baileys kits are made in Taiwan, not China.


----------



## Grande Dog

Howdy Al,
Our kits aren't where I want them yet but, I'll have them improved every chance I get. I'm sorry you had issues with yours. I would have replaced it in a second for you, and I still will if it's under a year old. Just out of curiosity, did it come in a NWP branded box? We sell a fair amount of the NWP's without issue, especially the BBN 372. If you're interested in a replacement just let me know.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## parrisw

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Al,
> Our kits aren't where I want them yet but, I'll have them improved every chance I get. I'm sorry you had issues with yours. I would have replaced it in a second for you, and I still will if it's under a year old. Just out of curiosity, did it come in a NWP branded box? We sell a fair amount of the NWP's without issue, especially the BBN 372. If you're interested in a replacement just let me know.
> Regards
> Gregg



This is why I'll always buy from baileys, great customer service. Now I've never bought a BB kit from them, but I wouldn't mind one of them as well to test against this one.

Nothing against Matt(MCW) he's great too, gave me a good deal.


----------



## MCW

mtngun said:


> The Baileys kits are made in Taiwan, not China.



Hi mate.
I'm well aware that Bailey's kits are Taiwanese. The particular supplier who has contacted me is out of Hong Kong but this does not necessarily mean that all of the kits he can supply are Chinese. I don't know where any of the kits he can supply are made, maybe they are all Chinese and maybe they're not. 
I know you have had issues with previous generation 066/660 kits just as I have had with one of the two sent to me to test. I think (hope!) the Husky kits won't have the same issues but I'll leave the "qualified" criticism up to the guys that I have checking these Husky kits for me 
It is however very important for companies (such as Baileys) that help pay for tooling etc to ensure that their manufacturers do not on sell to other customers. I believe GB has had a falling out with a major Chinese supplier because of this same issue. I asked my particular supplier in Hong Kong if he has any issues selling these kits into the US - he said no. My concern was that I "may" be selling the same kits as Baileys or in Australia the same kits as Jakmax (I believe Jakmax and Baileys have an association - my Jakmax rep thinks very highly of Nik Bailey). Jaxmax's brand is MAKO.

Gregg,
If you have any concerns that I may be selling your kits I am more than happy to send some your way to check, I'm not here to tread on anybody's toes.


----------



## Grande Dog

No Worries,
We pretty much know all the players. It's a free world, and if you can turn a profit, I'm behind you. The folks from Australia were in Taiwan while we were there a few years ago. I know for sure that they do have some relations with the folks we originally dealt with. I think we have a strong agreement for a North American exclusive with the company we deal with. I would pose the question to your supplier as: does the manufacturer have any issues with sales in North America. If he says no, I can't imagine any issues arising unless he's being less than truthful.
Best Regards
Gregg


----------



## Zombiechopper

Matt, do you have any source for after market MS200T kits? Not necessarily big bore, but that would be cool too.


----------



## blsnelling

The OEM topend is ported. I've yet to get it in wood though. Seems to run real well. Throttle response is excellent. Compression is a little disappointing, but not surprising considering how high they made the exhaust timing. It's yet to see any load, so isn't broken in yet, but compression is 145, 142 right now. We'll be doing a popup on it later, probably about .035" tall.


----------



## mtngun

Thanks for the compression data, Brad.

The combustion chamber volume seems to have varied over the years on 660's, with the newer jugs tending to have bigger chambers. The jug I'll be putting on soon is like that, it'll be doing good to give me 140 psi even with a pop-up.


----------



## Andyshine77

mtngun said:


> Thanks for the compression data, Brad.
> 
> The combustion chamber volume seems to have varied over the years on 660's, with the newer jugs tending to have bigger chambers. The jug I'll be putting on soon is like that, it'll be doing good to give me 140 psi even with a pop-up.



No wonder the new stock 660's are so unimpressive.


----------



## blsnelling

Andyshine77 said:


> No wonder the new stock 660's are so unimpressive.



The topends went to pot when they quit using Mahle.


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> The topends went to pot when they quit using Mahle.



That really is crap eh! I will never buy a newer 660.


----------



## MCW

Grande Dog said:


> No Worries,
> We pretty much know all the players. It's a free world, and if you can turn a profit, I'm behind you. The folks from Australia were in Taiwan while we were there a few years ago. I know for sure that they do have some relations with the folks we originally dealt with. I think we have a strong agreement for a North American exclusive with the company we deal with. I would pose the question to your supplier as: does the manufacturer have any issues with sales in North America. If he says no, I can't imagine any issues arising unless he's being less than truthful.
> Best Regards
> Gregg



Thanks for the reply Gregg. My supplier has said that they do have distributors in North Emerica and a couple in Europe. As always though mate, the Chinese don't tend to care who's toes they step on as long as they see dollars 



Zombiechopper said:


> Matt, do you have any source for after market MS200T kits? Not necessarily big bore, but that would be cool too.



No sorry mate. I was chasing up a 200T P&C kit as well and apart from the shockingly expensive OEM kits no luck  I've followed numerous avenues to no avail...


----------



## AUSSIE1

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy Al,
> Our kits aren't where I want them yet but, I'll have them improved every chance I get. I'm sorry you had issues with yours. I would have replaced it in a second for you, and I still will if it's under a year old. Just out of curiosity, did it come in a NWP branded box? We sell a fair amount of the NWP's without issue, especially the BBN 372. If you're interested in a replacement just let me know.
> Regards
> Gregg



Thanks Gregg,
Yes it's a NWP I purchased recently.
Was quite surprised with this kit after the good run with previous kits.


----------



## AUSSIE1

blsnelling said:


> The OEM topend is ported. I've yet to get it in wood though. Seems to run real well. Throttle response is excellent. Compression is a little disappointing, but not surprising considering how high they made the exhaust timing. It's yet to see any load, so isn't broken in yet, but compression is 145, 142 right now. We'll be doing a popup on it later, probably about .035" tall.



So there wasn't enough exhaust floor to machine the barrel, even a little?


----------



## blsnelling

AUSSIE1 said:


> So there wasn't enough exhaust floor to machine the barrel, even a little?



We'll be dropping the jug .035 when we do the popup. There's close to .100" coverage.


----------



## blsnelling

If you recall, Matt's friend begged his new MS660 off of him before he got to run it much at all. Matt decided he wanted another one. It will be mailed out today. I made this vid in the dark last night. It's about 21" Black Walnut. The saw will tune as high as 14,500 for play, and about 14,000 for work.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f_W6Cu_yjzU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f_W6Cu_yjzU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> If you recall, Matt's friend begged his new MS660 off of him before he got to run it much at all. Matt decided he wanted another one. It will be mailed out today. I made this vid in the dark last night. It's about 21" Black Walnut. The saw will tune as high as 14,500 for play, and about 14,000 for work.
> 
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f_W6Cu_yjzU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f_W6Cu_yjzU?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



Gee Brad things are rough mate when you've been running saws under candlelight  Don't worry, I'll make sure a lot more videos get put up when it arrives. I've got a few 3' hardwood logs for it to play with


----------



## gemniii

GAD - two hours to go thru this thread to find out the 660 is good with a port, but w/o a muf mod.

Why not at least a DP muffler?

Or did I miss something?

great thread - could use an executive summary.


----------



## FATGUY

gemniii said:


> GAD - two hours to go thru this thread to find out the 660 is good with a port, but w/o a muf mod.
> 
> Why not at least a DP muffler?
> 
> Or did I miss something?
> 
> great thread - could use an executive summary.



that saw may have a trick or two up it's sleave : )


----------



## Andyshine77

The pop turned out nicely and it seemed to hold good rpm's in the wood. Have fun with her Matt.


----------



## MCW

Andyshine77 said:


> The pop turned out nicely and it seemed to hold good rpm's in the wood. Have fun with her Matt.



Thanks Andy. I think I just may


----------



## gemniii

Any more info on the 660BB?

I'm still looking for an excuse to get a third powerhead.


----------



## MCW

gemniii said:


> Any more info on the 660BB?
> 
> I'm still looking for an excuse to get a third powerhead.



It's been posted by Brad and I am awaiting it's arrival  I'll get some decent vids in larger wood when it arrives!

By the way, you need no excuses


----------



## Stihlman441

opcorn: waiting waiting................


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> opcorn: waiting waiting................



Me too 

Then we have to catch up mate for the inaugural Aussie GTG


----------



## Stihlman441

That sounds like a plan,would even be better if i had a good reason to come and see you and pick up something,eg one of Brads worked 660s.


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> That sounds like a plan,would even be better if i had a good reason to come and see you and pick up something,eg one of Brads worked 660s.



Yeah, damn fine idea. There will be beer  oh, and maybe even a chainsaw or 12.


----------



## MCW

OK gents. The news you have all been waiting for is here...

*THE 660 ARRIVED TODAY *

Whacked a 25" ES bar on it that I had, fitted an 8 pin sprocket (that circlip setup really does suck) started her up, whacked her in a big lump of Casuarina with the bar buried and RSC chain...and...

*the 390XPG will be getting sold*.

This thing has some serious nuts and a grunty exhaust note. Not an ear piercing crackle like the Huskies, just grunty. I did about 12 cuts and was smiling all the way.

I would have gotten a video but it was raining heavily and now my Ford Ranger work ute that was parked nearby has Casuarina chips stuck all over it. This is an impressive saw. I'll get vids up soon...


----------



## mdavlee

Well it sounds like the 660 impressed you too. I picked up a brand new one myself and really like it now.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Well it sounds like the 660 impressed you too. I picked up a brand new one myself and really like it now.



Yep. Certainly impressed so far


----------



## FATGUY




----------



## Stihlman441

opcorn: We have been waiting a long time,dont play with us.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> opcorn: We have been waiting a long time,dont play with us.:biggrinbounce2:



I couldn't and wouldn't Andrew!!! Heh heh. Maybe tomorrow I'll get some video up if it's not raining.


----------



## blsnelling

MCW said:


> OK gents. The news you have all been waiting for is here...
> 
> *THE 660 ARRIVED TODAY *
> 
> Whacked a 25" ES bar on it that I had, fitted an 8 pin sprocket (that circlip setup really does suck) started her up, whacked her in a big lump of Casuarina with the bar buried and RSC chain...and...
> 
> *the 390XPG will be getting sold*.
> 
> This thing has some serious nuts and a grunty exhaust note. Not an ear piercing crackle like the Huskies, just grunty. I did about 12 cuts and was smiling all the way.
> 
> I would have gotten a video but it was raining heavily and now my Ford Ranger work ute that was parked nearby has Casuarina chips stuck all over it. This is an impressive saw. I'll get vids up soon...



It's about time! What took so long for that saw to show up? I'm just glad it arrived safely.


----------



## 2yb3

since i dont have the time to scroll through 53 pages thought id ask a quick question. What where the final results, what you like most, whats the fastest, and what feels more comftorable


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> It's about time! What took so long for that saw to show up? I'm just glad it arrived safely.



Hi Brad.
I rang Australia Post about this and asked why it was taking so long. I thought our dreaded Customs had got their grubby mitts on it or something and were going to charge me import duties and taxes etc.
Apparently because of your dollar and the exchange rate there have been a massive amount of things being bought by other countries like Australia. There are a huge amount of parcels leaving the US for foreign countries so you guys have upped your security at the same time. There is up to a 3 week delay apparently. Same goes for China as most guys there run in US dollars too.



2yb3 said:


> since i dont have the time to scroll through 53 pages thought id ask a quick question. What where the final results, what you like most, whats the fastest, and what feels more comftorable



Hi mate.
Out of all 3 saws the Makita was certainly the most impressive. As far as balance goes there isn't much in it between the Makita and the 390XP. The 660 felt a bit foreign in my hands however I'm going to hang on to this latest 660 for sure. If you were just running a 24" bar in hardwood I'd be reaching for the Makita but now that it has been sold the 390XP would be the more tempting saw. Above 24" I'd be reaching for the 390XP although in our hardwoods the filter is a bit average, letting through finer wood dust unless you oil it, which I've had to.


----------



## MCW

Quick video of my new 660 with pop up. This is super hard wood and despite how it looks the 7900 with BB kit in the video is quite powerful. Just obviously nowhere near the 660  I'll be keeping this 660. I'm already smiling and it quite simply flogs my ported 390 XP and XPG, as it probably should with extra cc and pop up 

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1VrEQjYEgUs" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Also with the high output oiler it is drowning the chain on this 25" (really 24" but why Stihl call an 84DL chain 25" has me dumbfounded!)...


----------



## Stihlman441

Ha there Matt welcome to Stihl world.
That 660 sounds great and looks the go in that concreate you call wood.
Know question time,what fuel and oil mix are ya using and what rpm is the 660 turning.

Cheers
Andrew
PS
Don't know what the go is with that 24'',25'' bar thing is,i have found with a 8 pin i use 85 d/links,make easier to put chains on and reduces the angle where the chain enters the bar groove as well reducing wear.


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> Ha there Matt welcome to Stihl world.
> That 660 sounds great and looks the go in that concreate you call wood.
> Know question time,what fuel and oil mix are ya using and what rpm is the 660 turning.



I knew you'd show up any minute mate!
Not sure what the 660 is turning in the cut but I believe Brad tuned it to 14,000rpm no load. I've only run 1/2 a tank through it so far but I have noticed it likes a drink! Heavy on the fuel that's for sure but heaps of grunt. I was going to put it up against my 3120 with same bar and chain but the Husky was still fitted to the mill and we had a massive storm coming (we copped 110mm of rain at my place in 8 hours - some neighbouring areas copped 220mm and massive flooding - by the way our annual rainfall is about 275mm!!!).
The only oil I have used for quite some time now is the Jakmax full synthetic made by ALCO in the US. For a while I was using Castrol TTS but the fumes from it were nasty. In the 3120 at 30:1 it was absolutely acrid and would burn your nostrils and make your eye's water (no joke).
This Jakmax gear is less than half the price and just as good. The two 7900's that I pulled down just recently had nicely lubricated pistons and bottom ends at 50:1.



Stihlman441 said:


> Don't know what the go is with that 24'',25'' bar thing is,i have found with a 8 pin i use 85 d/links,make easier to put chains on and reduces the angle where the chain enters the bar groove as well reducing wear.



Yeah the 8 pin and 84DL was pretty tight on this 660 but manageable. Best bit is that the main bars I run on my 390's and 7900's are also 24" 3/8" 84DL .050" so I can easily just swap chains around.

Why do I need 5 saws that can easily run a 24" bar which is what I mostly use?

Good question and one I can't answer


----------



## Stihlman441

Thanks Matt keep us posted,put your gum boots on and get into it.Iknow what ya mean about the rain getting a bit sick of it,but as the dairy farmers say its liquid money.

Cheers mate


----------



## mdavlee

Nice video. The 660s seem to have more grunt than a 390 for sure.

Burvol found a K&N filter that will fit under the cover and uses an outerwear. Maybe I can get the part numbers from him and that might help you guys out over there with the filtration.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> Nice video. The 660s seem to have more grunt than a 390 for sure.
> 
> Burvol found a K&N filter that will fit under the cover and uses an outerwear. Maybe I can get the part numbers from him and that might help you guys out over there with the filtration.



Thanks mate. I'm sure a ported 660 will walk away from a ported 390XP in larger wood but this thing with a pop up is in another league. 

At this stage I'll see how this filter goes but Stihl Australia now have a setup that will apparently keep the finer dust out with no filter oil. In fact I think Andrew (Stihlman441) above runs that setup? It is smaller than the extreme conditions filter kit previously offered and actually fits under the standard filter cover.


----------



## Stihlman441

Yes that is correct Matt,works a treat on dry redgum.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=132216&highlight=


----------



## Tiger Rag

MCW said:


> Quick video of my new 660 with pop up. This is super hard wood and despite how it looks the 7900 with BB kit in the video is quite powerful. Just obviously nowhere near the 660  I'll be keeping this 660. I'm already smiling and it quite simply flogs my ported 390 XP and XPG, as it probably should with extra cc and pop up
> 
> <iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1VrEQjYEgUs" frameborder="0"></iframe>
> 
> Also with the high output oiler it is drowning the chain on this 25" (really 24" but why Stihl call an 84DL chain 25" has me dumbfounded!)...



That 660 looks pretty impressive! I'm sure you are going to enjoy it!


----------



## blsnelling

Looks real good in that hard wood Matt. It's obvious why you love a torquey saw.


----------



## TraditionalTool

Matt,

Dumb question, but where do you get those covers for the top of your boots? I hate getting chips inside my boots and when I wear shorts it always happens...


----------



## Tiger Rag

TraditionalTool said:


> Matt,
> 
> Dumb question, but where do you get those covers for the top of your boots? I hate getting chips inside my boots and when I wear shorts it always happens...



Gators. Widely available. Those just aren't the under the boot fastening variety, just elastic.


----------



## MCW

Tiger Rag said:


> That 660 looks pretty impressive! I'm sure you are going to enjoy it!



I already am enjoying it 



blsnelling said:


> Looks real good in that hard wood Matt. It's obvious why you love a torquey saw.



Yeah it was very very obvious in the video how much torque this 660 has. I mean the 7900 with BB kit is no slouch but in this particular piece of wood with grabby RSC it was just too much for the poor girl. The 660 just ate it, even when I loaded it up.



TraditionalTool said:


> Matt,
> 
> Dumb question, but where do you get those covers for the top of your boots? I hate getting chips inside my boots and when I wear shorts it always happens...



PM me your address and I'll post you a pair. They are cheap cheap and more cheap but invaluable. I've thrown out a fair few pairs of socks after I've unknowingly filled my boots with dry hardwood chips when a jean's leg has worked it's way up a bit and ;eft the top of my boot(s) exposed.


----------



## BarkBuster20

I knew once you tried the 660 you would be selling the husky :chainsawguy: that saw'll make ya a lot of money, basicly what my next project is gonna be minus the pop up.


----------



## MCW

BarkBuster20 said:


> I knew once you tried the 660 you would be selling the husky :chainsawguy: that saw'll make ya a lot of money, basicly what my next project is gonna be minus the pop up.



I'm only selling my modded 390XPG, definately not my newer modded 390XP  That'll be with me a long time and the new 660 would go well before the 390  I doubt I'll be selling either though.


----------



## blsnelling

You're beginning to see the light, Matt


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> You're beginning to see the light, Matt



Hah hah. I'm happy to let the new Stihl upstart work alongside my Huskies and Dolmars for now but world domination it is definately not 

On a seperate little note:

Had a play with a 338XPT top handle yesterday and am sad to say that despite being highly rated, they are nowhere near as nicely balanced as the 200T in my opinion.


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> I'm only selling my modded 390XPG, definately not my newer modded 390XP  That'll be with me a long time and the new 660 would go well before the 390  I doubt I'll be selling either though.



Atta boy! I don't think I'd be able to talk to you anymore if you sold all your Huskies!


----------



## gink595

TraditionalTool said:


> Matt,
> 
> Dumb question, but where do you get those covers for the top of your boots? I hate getting chips inside my boots and when I wear shorts it always happens...



Ya those things are the bee's knee's for cutting in shorts! I'm surprised Baileys doesn't sale them.


----------



## Cedarkerf

Video definately shows why air filters are such a big issue over there.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Around three bucks a pair and made in China!  (sock saver/over boot)


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> Atta boy! I don't think I'd be able to talk to you anymore if you sold all your Huskies!



I like all saw brands mate but the Stihls would be going before the Huskies if it ever came to that 



AUSSIE1 said:


> Around three bucks a pair and made in China!  (sock saver/over boot)



You can by Australian made ones Al, probably about 30 bucks...


----------



## gink595

AUSSIE1 said:


> Around three bucks a pair and made in China!  (sock saver/over boot)



Must be a Aussie thing, every site I found was in Australia I guess wearing shorts and work boots isn't as popular over here, thats to bad.


----------



## MCW

gink595 said:


> Must be a Aussie thing, every site I found was in Australia I guess wearing shorts and work boots isn't as popular over here, thats to bad.



Nah mate everybody wears shorts and work boots. They just don't use a lot of chainsaws or walk through a lot of prickly weeds 
Unfortunately I do both...


----------



## AUSSIE1

gink595 said:


> Must be a Aussie thing, every site I found was in Australia I guess wearing shorts and work boots isn't as popular over here, thats to bad.



Yeah Frank, they are pretty common here and surprised they aren't further abroad.

Actually, they are very commonly worn in the logging industry out here!


----------



## Cedarkerf

Between Devils club, black berrys, stining nettles,salmon berrys, and assorted other pokies double front pants are the only way to go around here. Seen a few guys cut in shorts in the back yard thats it.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

The 390xp is low on compression stock, about 150psi on the average. Reducing the squish/quench to .020-.025, plus a .020-.030 popup really wakes them up.


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> You can by Australian made ones Al, probably about 30 bucks...



Yeah mate, there are some really nice oil skins available. I'd only loose them! 



Outlaw5.0 said:


> The 390xp is low on compression stock, about 150psi on the average. Reducing the squish/quench to .020-.025, plus a .020-.030 popup really wakes them up.



Matt's 390 is only running gasketless if I remember correctly.


----------



## mdavlee

The 390 I'm running is around 175 lbs with just a shaved cylinder. The 660 is around 150 after 5 tanks.


----------



## MCW

I haven't measured compressions yet but the 660 with pop up will be up there once it's properly run in I think


----------



## dingeryote

gink595 said:


> Must be a Aussie thing, every site I found was in Australia I guess wearing shorts and work boots isn't as popular over here, thats to bad.



Frank...

I'm gonna petition to have your Hillbilly permit revoked.:hmm3grin2orange:

Lop the last 8" off of the sleeves of an old windbreaker with elastic in the wrists.
Boom! Instant black jack flaps(Gaiters).

If ya insist on bieng all citified about it, REI has 'em.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## AUSSIE1

dingeryote said:


> Frank...
> 
> I'm gonna petition to have your Hillbilly permit revoked.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Lop the last 8" off of the sleeves of an old windbreaker with elastic in the wrists.
> Boom! Instant black jack flaps(Gaiters).
> 
> If ya insist on bieng all citified about it, REI has 'em.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I've said this one before. 

Cut the last 6" off the bottom of your old tracky dacks with elastic bottoms, turn em upside down...instant gaiters!


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> I've said this one before.
> 
> Cut the last 6" off the bottom of your old tracky dacks with elastic bottoms, turn em upside down...instant gaiters!



Plus instant shorts. It's a win win situation for all


----------



## Stihlman441

So in the end what compression did that 660 end up with the popup, and was there any pics taken of the popup ?.

Cheers all


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> So in the end what compression did that 660 end up with the popup, and was there any pics taken of the popup ?.
> 
> Cheers all


 
Hi Andrew.
Compression isn't silly on this 660 and from memory was about 180psi - standard was around 155psi. The Makita that I had with the popup was about 200psi. 180psi certainly isn't excessive and stock untouched pro saws such as the Dolmar 7900 are commonly 170-180psi. I don't think Brad took any photos of the work he did. I reclon I asked him earlier in the thread.


----------



## Stihlman441

*The tale goes on*

The Tale Of Three Saws goes on for one of them anyway.
Matt has very kindly sent down the 2rd one of those 660s the Brad modded,for me to play with.
So what do you do,put it up against a stock ozzy (dual port muf,h/output oiler) 660 and for interest a stock ozzy 880.
The firsts cuts are the stock 660 (blue tape on chainbrake handle)

Stock 660
Dual port muf
2009 mod done a fair bit of work
8 pin rim
25'' bar
Fuel is Caltex Vortex 95 Mobile 1 T2 @ 40;1
w/o 12800 rpm

Snellerized 660
Muf mod dual port
Woods ported,cylinder machined lowered
Popup piston
8 pin rim
25'' bar
Fuel BP Ultimate 98 Mobile 1 T2 @40;1
w/o 13800 rpm

stock 880
2010 modle
8 pin rim
36'' bar
Fuel is Caltex Vortex 95 Mobile 1 T2 @ 40;1
rev limitted

All have Stihl semi chisel chains of the same roll
[video=youtube;8NLuAaoA7B0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NLuAaoA7B0&nofeather=True[/video]


----------



## AUSSIE1

Great job Andrew.

Softwood going by the blue stain?

Wood looks a little yellow in the vid for pine...........Oregon/Douglas fir? 

I got-

stock 660 - av 8.8
Worked 660- av 8.6
880 - av 7.4

Hardwood, say Stringy twice the size would spread the times some!


----------



## MCW

Yeah Al I was talking to Andrew via email and I think if he dropped the rakers a bit you'd see the modded 660 (and the 880 of course!) really start to kick butt over the stock 660 due to the extra torque. I know that when I was running it you could get pretty aggressive with the raker height and it just kept on pulling...hard...

It was a very difficult saw to stall or slow down, just like my 3120.


----------



## Stihlman441

Ya Al nice soft pin (Oregon/Douglas fir)

Im working on to the harder stuff stringybark is up next.


----------



## Stihlman441

I totaly agree with you Matt about dropping the rakers,but what i was trying to do was keep everything that i can control the same to get a fair comparison between them.


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> I totaly agree with you Matt about dropping the rakers,but what i was trying to do was keep everything that i can control the same to get a fair comparison between them.



Hey I agree Andrew, I would have done exactly the same as you - you need to set a standard to start with which you've done nicely 

Now get angry with those rakers! You'll see your stock 660 lag behind, the modded 660 will pull away, and the 880 will kick all their arses - mark my words. No matter how good somebody mods a 660 it ain't gonna fill a 28 odd cc torque gap!


----------



## ECsaws

Its real hard to say just listing and watching videos but it "sounds" like both 066's are being loaded about the same (good job of running them) you can here them both pull down in the power band about the same.
I'm curious what would happen if you do take the rakers down.
personally "I" think you make be going the wrong way. Try filing the chain back some and leave them where they are and try it on the 066.


----------



## Stihlman441

No matter how good somebody mods a 660 it ain't gonna fill a 28 odd cc torque gap![/QUOTE]

I here what you are saying cc s are everything,i put the 880 in there for my own interest.I suppose deep down i am trying to find out if i can live without it or not,but i have a soft spot in my hard for it,dont know why,its heavy,hard to handle,likes a drink but gee it sounds good but.
I would love to send it to Brad,get it modded and throw away that rev limitter,know that would be a weapond.


----------



## MacLaren

Unless Im way off on my math then you have a gain of 2.27% from stock vs. modded on your 660. The times i got were as follows
Stock 9.60 & 8.13
Snelleriized 9.34 & 7.78

Thats not much in the way of gains at all. Am I missing something here? Shouldnt a modded saw get atleast about 15% more?


----------



## Stihlman441

In defence of the mooded 660 is old habbits die hard in that im not familier with high torque modded saws,and i didnt realy know how hard to lean on it.The big differance is the torque and holding rpm in the cut.Modded one holds 10000 rpm no problem,the stock one is around 8 to 9000 rpm.
What Matt and Al are saying is drop the rakers and it will still have the torque to hold the rpm but cut farster.:msp_smile:


----------



## AUSSIE1

hillbilly22 said:


> Unless Im way off on my math then you have a gain of 2.27% from stock vs. modded on your 660. The times i got were as follows
> Stock 9.60 & 8.13
> Snelleriized 9.34 & 7.78
> 
> Thats not much in the way of gains at all. Am I missing something here? Shouldnt a modded saw get atleast about 15% more?


 
In that size wood and being softwood the benefit of porting can't shine. Double the size and make it hardwood would increase the difference. As Matt said when he was running it, it had the grunt in larger wood. My 365BB with 166° Ex would whip the butt of my 395 in that size softwood. Alot bigger wood and hardwood, the reverse would happen.


----------



## MacLaren

I honeslty mean no disrespect to anyone. Seein how I know little to nothin about saws Im just gonna hush before I get in over my head.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Ecopsey said:


> Its real hard to say just listing and watching videos but it "sounds" like both 066's are being loaded about the same (good job of running them) you can here them both pull down in the power band about the same.
> I'm curious what would happen if you do take the rakers down.
> personally "I" think you make be going the wrong way. Try filing the chain back some and leave them where they are and try it on the 066.


 
Yep, that's the route I would take. If you did take the rackers down which may be fine for softwood, you may find it too much in hardwood.


----------



## MacLaren

I would certainly love to visit Australia sometime though. That is definetly some of the prettiest country in the world.


----------



## AUSSIE1

hillbilly22 said:


> I honeslty mean no disrespect to anyone. Seein how I know little to nothin about saws Im just gonna hush before I get in over my head.


 
You should be right mate. Didn't see you were being disrespectful to anyone in particular. Just a common question as to why a ported saw doesn't show the full potential in smaller wood.


----------



## AUSSIE1

hillbilly22 said:


> I would certainly love to visit Australia sometime though. That is definetly some of the prettiest country in the world.


 
Damn right, but we aren't silly enough to think there isn't equally or better beaut places around the world. You guy's do alright over there yourselves. One place I'd like to visit for sure.


----------



## MacLaren

AUSSIE1 said:


> Damn right, but we aren't silly enough to think there isn't equally or better beaut places around the world. You guy's do alright over there yourselves. One place I'd like to visit for sure.


 
Thank you sir. I appreciate that. But man oh man Australia is just very,very unique.


----------



## Stihlman441

hillbilly22 said:


> I honeslty mean no disrespect to anyone. Seein how I know little to nothin about saws Im just gonna hush before I get in over my head.


 
We are pretty thick skinned down here its going to take a lot to upset most of us.
Thats why you are here on AS to read and lern a little as ya go,its all good.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Stihlman441 said:


> We are pretty thick skinned down here its going to take a lot to upset most of us.
> Thats why you are here on AS to read and lern a little as ya go,its all good.


 
Lol, yes Andrew, we know how to sling it, we better know how to take it!


----------



## MCW

Ecopsey said:


> Its real hard to say just listing and watching videos but it "sounds" like both 066's are being loaded about the same (good job of running them) you can here them both pull down in the power band about the same.
> I'm curious what would happen if you do take the rakers down.
> personally "I" think you make be going the wrong way. Try filing the chain back some and leave them where they are and try it on the 066.



Hey thanks for poking your nose in Eric and I certainly appreciate your input. What I found when I was running this 660 was that it showed many similar characteristics to my 3120. It doesn't matter whether you have a 25" bar on it or a 32", it pulls it the same. Put it this way, a 32" 3/8" .063" 105DL semi chisel chain with aggressive rakers was pulled easily by this 660 with an 8 pin rim (as in the video below). On my modded 390XP it certainly wouldn't pull the exact same chain with an 8 pin in Casuarina without bulk stalling and it was marginal even with a 7 pin rim. If I put 24" bars on both saws with the same setup chain the 390XP and this 660 would be neck and neck.



Stihlman441 said:


> No matter how good somebody mods a 660 it ain't gonna fill a 28 odd cc torque gap!
> 
> I here what you are saying cc s are everything,i put the 880 in there for my own interest.I suppose deep down i am trying to find out if i can live without it or not,but i have a soft spot in my hard for it,dont know why,its heavy,hard to handle,likes a drink but gee it sounds good but.
> I would love to send it to Brad,get it modded and throw away that rev limitter,know that would be a weapond.



If you modded your 880 it wouldn't be allowed back in Australia under the current terrorism legislation.



hillbilly22 said:


> Unless Im way off on my math then you have a gain of 2.27% from stock vs. modded on your 660. The times i got were as follows
> Stock 9.60 & 8.13
> Snelleriized 9.34 & 7.78
> 
> Thats not much in the way of gains at all. Am I missing something here? Shouldnt a modded saw get atleast about 15% more?



As Al mentioned on smaller wood extra torque isn't as noticable. On larger bars in bigger wood is where this 660 shines. By the way nobody here took what you said personally or anything and we all appreciate each other's posts. You are indeed correct by looking at Andrew's video that it looks as if the modified saw isn't much faster. Many people would therefore ask "why bother?" but in this case there is a bit more to it than that as you simply can't see torque 
The videos below are also posted in my other thread but this will give you some idea of the grunt this 660 has. This is some pretty hard wood too...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xY6DRhr9e_o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YprawJ1vV58" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And the 390XP with same chain as the 660 in the first video but with a 7 pin rim and in smaller wood. This is the same 390XP this thread was based on - I still love the Huskys though ...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/R3ly53RLGYA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> Yep, that's the route I would take. If you did take the rackers down which may be fine for softwood, you may find it too much in hardwood.



Yeah Al you're right. I think we came to that conclusion that time at your place with my modded Makita. The chains that I'd been successfully using in Tasmania sort of, um, well, stalled lots in that hard Red Box log you had.
However, I've had pretty good results with lower rakers as I run less hook than most. I'm no chain expert but I believe you can get a chain that wears well (less hook) yet still get it to cut fast (lower rakers). It's worked for me with the wood I cut and the saws I have. In fact a standard out of the box chain no matter what the brand is is slow as far as I'm concerned. I don't even use a new chain unless I've dropped the rakers.



hillbilly22 said:


> I would certainly love to visit Australia sometime though. That is definetly some of the prettiest country in the world.



Drop in while you're here  Like Al said, if I do visit any overseas countries the US will be first on my list.


----------



## Stihlman441

Drop in while you're here  Like Al said, if I do visit any overseas countries the US will be first on my list.[/QUOTE]

If ya go over to the us Matt can we organise a shipping container full of saws and stuff.:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> If ya go over to the us Matt can we organise a shipping container full of saws and stuff.:msp_thumbsup:



Why of course mate  I wouldn't have it any other way...

They'd be all my saws though? No room for yours...


----------



## ECsaws

So let me get this rite, Your saying that a Modded saw has more torque" ("should" have I agree).
But if your trying to convince me that a modded saw wont show its power only in BIG wood I say BS!!!!! I dont care what you have ben feed !! power is power no matter what size or kind of wood when the "same peace" is used for comparison .
Its quite simple really, if the modded saw has more power you should be able to load the saw harder (push) making it cut faster not pulling out of the powerband as quick, thats what torque is all about.... its all about "holding RPM's in the cut".
The Video that stihlman441 posted he did a great job of running the saws both saws came off there power bands (pulled down) so how can we say it takes bigger wood to load the modded saw ?
I'm not by any means discrediting anyone here but I havent spent the last 10 years figuring out how to make there saws and chains cut faster to be BS'ed about small wood VS big wood ... wood is wood as long as all is "equal", I dont see how it could have been anymore equal in stihlman441 video.
"IMO" the only way to make that modded saw cut faster is to file the chain back so the saw stays at its peak RPM, with the narrower band use the higher RPM to make the gains.


----------



## AUSSIE1

Ecopsey said:


> So let me get this rite, Your saying that a Modded saw has more torque" ("should" have I agree).
> But if your trying to convince me that a modded saw wont show its power only in BIG wood I say BS!!!!! I dont care what you have ben feed !! power is power no matter what size or kind of wood when the "same peace" is used for comparison .
> Its quite simple really, if the modded saw has more power you should be able to load the saw harder (push) making it cut faster not pulling out of the powerband as quick, thats what torque is all about.... its all about "holding RPM's in the cut".
> The Video that stihlman441 posted he did a great job of running the saws both saws came off there power bands (pulled down) so how can we say it takes bigger wood to load the modded saw ?
> I'm not by any means discrediting anyone here but I havent spent the last 10 years figuring out how to make there saws and chains cut faster to be BS'ed about small wood VS big wood ... wood is wood as long as all is "equal", I dont see how it could have been anymore equal in stihlman441 video.
> "IMO" the only way to make that modded saw cut faster is to file the chain back so the saw stays at its peak RPM, with the narrower band use the higher RPM to make the gains.


 
Heavy duty post! 
No one's BS'ing you as the responses weren't direct to you. Convince you? Who is trying to convince you? 
Most have commented on what they have experienced, be it right or wrong. They are entitled to it regardless of what those on pedestals may think.


----------



## parrisw

MCW said:


> Drop in while you're here  Like Al said, if I do visit any overseas countries the US will be first on my list.


 
AHHHHHHHEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMM Cough, Cough, Cough!!!!


----------



## AUSSIE1

parrisw said:


> AHHHHHHHEEEEEEEMMMMMMMMM Cough, Cough, Cough!!!!


 
Of course it goes without saying Will, we'd pop over the border.

Just make sure the fridge is full and the boat fueled!


----------



## parrisw

AUSSIE1 said:


> Of course it goes without saying Will, we'd pop over the border.
> 
> Just make sure the fridge is full and the boat fueled!


 
Lots of beer in there now, can't promise nothing though, doesn't last long. Well, the boat is in a few pieces now hope to have it ready for the summer.


----------



## blsnelling

blsnelling said:


> The MS660 is back together and running. Throttle response is extremely snappy. Max RPMs are 14,300. I have it tuned to about *13,900-14,000*.


 


Stihlman441 said:


> Snellerized 660
> Muf mod dual port
> Woods ported,cylinder machined lowered
> Popup piston
> 8 pin rim
> 25'' bar
> Fuel BP Ultimate 98 Mobile 1 T2 @40;1
> *w/o 13800 rpm*


 
Give her a few more RPMs. Also use the exact same *bar and chain* next time. You can clearly hear the modded 660 is turning more RPMs in the cut. Why the times don't show more difference is odd.


----------



## parrisw

blsnelling said:


> Give her a few more RPMs. Also use the exact same *bar and chain* next time. You can clearly hear the modded 660 is turning more RPMs in the cut. Why the times don't show more difference is odd.


 
It looks as if he loaded the saws about the same. As others have said the modded saw should take more load and hold the same RPM. Maybe its a case of some chains can only cut so fast, until you do something about it.


----------



## MCW

parrisw said:


> It looks as if he loaded the saws about the same. As others have said the modded saw should take more load and hold the same RPM. Maybe its a case of some chains can only cut so fast, until you do something about it.



I agree Will. In my experience with stock raker heights there is only so much pushing you can do. There reaches a point where it simply won't cut faster - it also depends a lot on the wood you're cutting. Once you start playing with angles and raker height is where you start to notice the torque - the torquier saws won't bog and will hold their revs. I'm no expert and generally only run semi chisel in a work type environment but I can confidently say that in my experience that is the case. As per my "Today's Job" thread I spent a lot of hours just cutting with a wide variety of saws at my disposal and had the opportunity to play with raker heights, cutter angles etc etc etc. Actually more through boredom than anything  It was very noticable with what worked and what didn't - in that wood.
Put it this way, my modded 390XP will kick a stock 660's butt, however it has nowhere near the grunt of the modded 660 in Andrew's video. With stock chain I can assure you there isn't much in it, when the chain is set up more aggressively the 660 gives my 390 a solid whipping. That is instantly noticable too and not something attributed to any saw brand loyalties I have (well actually I don't have any!). There is a reason why I want to sell the 660, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the grunt of it. It is not far off my stock 3120 at all with bars around 32" and that says something. It also becomes even more evident in some of the super hard wood I've cut with it.


----------



## Stihlman441

blsnelling said:


> Give her a few more RPMs. Also use the exact same *bar and chain* next time. You can clearly hear the modded 660 is turning more RPMs in the cut. Why the times don't show more difference is odd.


 
Ha there Brad,you build this thing so you know what it can do and i will add a bit more rpms another day,thats how it came from Matt and i didnt wont to much with how he had it set up.
Im about to put up another vid made on the same day but with harder wood.
All chains came off the same roll and hav'nt been touched.The bars are the same but the one on the modded saw is newer.


----------



## ECsaws

MCW said:


> I agree Will. In my experience with stock raker heights there is only so much pushing you can do. There reaches a point where it simply won't cut faster - it also depends a lot on the wood you're cutting. Once you start playing with angles and raker height is where you start to notice the torque - the torquier saws won't bog and will hold their revs.


 
Matt if the modded saw didnt bog in andrews video I would believe this statement but it "quite obvious it did". The only way to know what you truly have is to run it against a stock saw that always tells the tail ! Something that most rarely do most just fall into the hype of ported saws.
Like I've said before power is power as long as your testing in the same wood you can't get a better dyno.
If you have to run a special chain to find a woods saws "power" then its not much of a work saw, Thats something you have to do with [email protected] becuse they have more of a narrow powerband and Higher RPM. More fuel = more tourque !


----------



## Stihlman441

Ok guys another vid,this time the only differance to the last vid is the wood is half dry (was cut last year in Aug) Spotted Gum.
First two cuts was stock 660.

[video=youtube;DJcmzgcVlJY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJcmzgcVlJY&nofeather=True[/video]


----------



## MCW

Ecopsey said:


> Matt if the modded saw didnt bog in andrews video I would believe this statement but it "quite obvious it did". The only way to know what you truly have is to run it against a stock saw that always tells the tail ! Something that most rarely do most just fall into the hype of ported saws.
> Like I've said before power is power as long as your testing in the same wood you can't get a better dyno.
> If you have to run a special chain to find a woods saws "power" then its not much of a work saw, Thats something you have to do with [email protected] becuse they have more of a narrow powerband and Higher RPM. More fuel = more tourque !


 
Eric I'm no expert but the more you push on a saw the more friction is produced from other parts of the cutter including the tie straps on the bar etc. If a saw "bogs" more it doesn't always mean that it's the cutters in the wood that's loading it up. I've even had saws load up more due to bad nose sprockets or chain tension.
I can tell you now that even stock saws with out of the box chain perform far better with the rakers dropped and I can say that with a lot of confidence, from my stock 200T with 3/8"LP right up to my 3120 with .404" - from what I gather you are saying that with the same chain setup you have to simply push harder to get it to cut better? I'd rather not push my work saws through the cut all day, my forearms would rather see the chain do more of the work - the LAST thing I want to do is equate faster cutting to harder pushing. In fact if I grab a stock chain now and go felling with it I actually think it's slow despite the saw revving faster which may give the impression it's cutting faster - the only benefit I see to stock raker height under most conditions is less vibrations but to me that's not a biggy. The last modded 660 I had (which had nowhere near the grunt of this thing by the way - it was ported but with lower compression) was sold to a mate with a similar tree/chainsaw business to mine. He sold his stock 660 (and his 880) and bought that particular saw. He said it crapped all over the stock 660 he owned and he doesn't do anything outside the ordinary when sharpening - just Carlton 3/8" semi chisel and a File-O-Plate.
If more fuel = more torque then unless I have a leak this thing has heaps of torque  It's an absolute pig on fuel!

By the way, I'm no idiot and being heavily involved with car modifications over the years I'm well aware that just grabbing a ported saw and "assuming" it will thump a stock saw is wrong - although I know your comment on comparing stock and modded saws may not have been only directed at me. Quite often just the sound of the exhaust will make people think it has more power when dyno testing will prove it hasn't, in fact sometimes even less. Andrew also told me via email that the modded 660 was pulling nearly 2000 more rpm in the cut compared to his stock 660 (they're both fitted with tachos). Why they then pulled similar cut times is beyond me - maybe they weren't loaded the same?
I ran 3 Dolmar/Makita saws side by side in all sorts of stock and modified configurations when felling 1000's of trees from small to large. I don't assume anything when it comes to grunt and modifications. I've seen hype surrounding car mods that don't deliver and I'm well aware the same thing happens with saws.
When I say that this particular 660 is right up the hammer of my 3120 with bars up to 32" I'm not joking (I didn't run bars over 32" on the 660 and never planned to). Unless of course a stock 660 is close to my Aussie delivered 3120 - if it is then we have a problem 

In summary I can assure you that the modded saw in the video has quite a bit more poke that the stocker, despite the video not necessarily proving that.


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> Ha there Brad,you build this thing so you know what it can do and i will add a bit more rpms another day,thats how it came from Matt and i didnt wont to much with how he had it set up.
> Im about to put up another vid made on the same day but with harder wood.
> All chains came off the same roll and hav'nt been touched.The bars are the same but the one on the modded saw is newer.


 
As mentioned before I sent it mate the H screw had been moving so I don't know how it was originally set up. I found with the 32" bar, 8 pin, and semi chisel chain I was running that there wasn't really a difference in noticable power between 13,800 and 14,000rpm. I set it at 13,800rpm as I do tend to like my saws running on the richer side without being too stupid. When it was leaning out too much prior to me fixing it the saw started to noticably bog more and lose power the leaner it got.


----------



## ECsaws

Matt not saying you should have to push harder... I'm saying if you have more "power" you should be able to push harder, its not that hard to grasp.. A higher RPM saw should cut faster "IF" it will hold the RPMs.
Maybe you should run your stock 3120 aginst a 660.. A stock 3120 is not that impressive I have had a few, on the other hand a 660 is quite impressive rite out of the box IMO, perhaps the most impressive saw Stihl has ever made "IMO".


If you notice in the last video Andrew posted hes not leaning on the modded 660 near as hard, I havent timed it but it looks and sounds a whole lot better :msp_wink:


----------



## Stihlman441

Ya it does run nice were its set at the moment and being a work saw we wont it last awhile.
I have been thinking about the fuel use differance and i have came up with a way to test the dif between them,im working on it.
Im going to 36''s on them to soon when i find a good size bit of wood.


----------



## MCW

Ecopsey said:


> Matt not saying you should have to push harder... I'm saying if you have more "power" you should be able to push harder, its not that hard to grasp.. A higher RPM saw should cut faster "IF" it will hold the RPMs.



Sorry I misunderstood and agree with you there.



Ecopsey said:


> Maybe you should run your stock 3120 aginst a 660.. A stock 3120 is not that impressive I have had a few, on the other hand a 660 is quite impressive rite out of the box IMO, perhaps the most impressive saw Stihl has ever made "IMO".



I've run it against a stock 880 and there was nothing in it, unless of course you don't think stock 880's are that special? Also remember there is a difference between the US and Aussie delivered 3120's (and 880's from memory?), just like there is a difference between the Aussie delivered 660's and the US delivered ones. The Aussie delivered 3120's have a 12,000-12,500rpm rev limit. I think the more modern US delivered 3120's have a 9,800 odd rpm limit. Considering a 3120 with normal bar length will pull more than 9,800rpm in the cut that's a stupid rev limit!



Ecopsey said:


> If you notice in the last video Andrew posted hes not leaning on the modded 660 near as hard, I havent timed it but it looks and sounds a whole lot better :msp_wink:



Yeah I haven't timed it either but it does look to have cut a lot faster in that wood in that video


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya it does run nice were its set at the moment and being a work saw we wont it last awhile.
> I have been thinking about the fuel use differance and i have came up with a way to test the dif between them,im working on it.
> Im going to 36''s on them to soon when i find a good size bit of wood.



If a stock 660 chews the same amount of fuel as this thing no forestry worker on earth could afford to run one  Not only that but they'd need a pack mule to carry the fuel...


----------



## MacLaren

Here are the times I got for the 2nd video.

Stock 21.90
21.56

Modded 20.62= 5.62% gain
19.00= 11.87% gain


----------



## AUSSIE1

hillbilly22 said:


> Here are the times I got for the 2nd video.
> 
> Stock 21.90
> 21.56
> 
> Modded 20.62= 5.62% gain
> 19.00= 11.87% gain



Yeah I got virtually the same times.

If you go by your earlier times, this is almost a 12% increase.


----------



## Stihlman441

In the end this is the sort of work this saw is going to have to do week in and week out for a few months a year.
You will see in the first vid is where ya need the torque in that stringbark sh_t.

[video=youtube;qKoWKH1djno]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKoWKH1djno[/video]

[video=youtube;iCdG368s-0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCdG368s-0M[/video]

:biggrin:


----------



## gink595

WTH kind of wood is that stringy bark?


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> In the end this is the sort of work this saw is going to have to do week in and week out for a few months a year.
> You will see in the first vid is where ya need the torque in that stringbark sh_t.



I love the "gently gently" approach in the Spotted Gum video as you get to the bottom of the cut. Can't half tell you hate getting blunt chains from sticking them in the dirt! (and that you've done that a lot!). I'm the same, I always back off near the end and am surprised how many guys just run full noise out the bottom then dig it into the dirt


----------



## MCW

gink595 said:


> WTH kind of wood is that stringy bark?



Heh heh Frank - brace yourself. Imagine a pretty hard log encased in tampons and rope. The fibres even fold themselves around the fronts of the cutters and next thing you know the saw is bouncing off the limiter (if it's got one!) and not cutting. You have to back it out of the cut then drive it on in again to clear the fibres. It also has some gnarly sap pockets that set like concrete on your bar and chains. I've had to even crack a chain out the bar with my scrench after the sap cooled and set like epoxy. The saw didn't have a hope of spinning it.


----------



## Stihlman441

MCW said:


> Heh heh Frank - brace yourself. Imagine a pretty hard log encased in tampons and rope. The fibres even fold themselves around the fronts of the cutters and next thing you know the saw is bouncing off the limiter (if it's got one!) and not cutting. You have to back it out of the cut then drive it on in again to clear the fibres. It also has some gnarly sap pockets that set like concrete on your bar and chains. I've had to even crack a chain out the bar with my scrench after the sap cooled and set like epoxy. The saw didn't have a hope of spinning it.


 
Ya i said all that Matt when i said Stringbark sh_t............


----------



## MCW

Stihlman441 said:


> Ya i said all that Matt when i said Stringbark sh_t............



Sorry mate. I though you meant "shut"?


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Heh heh Frank - brace yourself. Imagine a pretty hard log encased in tampons and rope. The fibres even fold themselves around the fronts of the cutters and next thing you know the saw is bouncing off the limiter (if it's got one!) and not cutting. You have to back it out of the cut then drive it on in again to clear the fibres. It also has some gnarly sap pockets that set like concrete on your bar and chains. I've had to even crack a chain out the bar with my scrench after the sap cooled and set like epoxy. The saw didn't have a hope of spinning it.


 
I've had the chain that jammed up on the bar it would not turn and I've had to remove it for a clean out. Not much better in peppermint.


----------



## Stihlman441

Its funny how the sh_t happens to all of us.


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> I've had the chain that jammed up on the bar it would not turn and I've had to remove it for a clean out. Not much better in peppermint.



Yeah I've only ever cut a few Peppermints down in Tasmania but did notice they have a fair bit of sap 



Stihlman441 said:


> Its funny how the sh_t happens to all of us.



Maybe all Aussie wood is just shut? (New Zealand for Sh*t)...


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Yeah I've only ever cut a few Peppermints down in Tasmania but did notice they have a fair bit of sap



No the bark, not the sap!


----------



## MCW

AUSSIE1 said:


> No the bark, not the sap!


 

Oh  Must be one of the other 12 Peppermint species that I was cutting as the bark on mine was just dandy...


----------



## AUSSIE1

MCW said:


> Oh  Must be one of the other 12 Peppermint species that I was cutting as the bark on mine was just dandy...


 
:msp_thumbup:


----------



## MCW

Hey Andrew, you'll love this vid mate. I was dropping a Stringybark in Tassie with the 3120 when I came across this. It was only a few cuts into my first ever Stringybark (about a 4 foot mongrel at the bottom that split into about 4 trunks) and I called over the missus to film it. The impression that Stringybark left on me (and my saw, bars, and chains) will haunt me forever. It will give some guys an idea as to why this shut is hard to cut. The bark here is about 2" thick - remember tampons and rope...


<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h4eAtcGchLo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## Stihlman441

Thats nothing mate ,check out this New Zealand hot springs of molten sap coming out of this stringy.
First two cuts full comp next two skip 36''chisel chain,check out the noodles at the end.

[video=youtube;v50ke7JMhvw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v50ke7JMhvw[/video]


----------



## MCW

Yeah I remember that video  Classic! You win on the sap front...
Did your Stringybark do this to your chain though?







Well OK, it was a steel post in the middle of that godforsaken Stringybark that did that to my new loop of Carlton .404" semi chisel. Sadly the 3120 had enough nuts to snap it clean off instead of stalling and saving the chain...






I couldn't cut the tree down as far as I wanted due to that post. It was smack bang in the middle...


----------



## wigglesworth

I noticed that all the busted up and broken chain is of the Carlton brand, no?


----------



## MCW

wigglesworth said:


> I noticed that all the busted up and broken chain is of the Carlton brand, no?



Indeed you are correct  Nothing against Carlton though, it's what I use the most and it gets the biggest workout. Other chain brands used the same would likely fail in the same way too. I've busted cutters off of Oregon LGX and Stihl RMC before too but only when I've hit something.


----------



## wigglesworth

MCW said:


> Indeed you are correct  Nothing against Carlton though, it's what I use the most and it gets the biggest workout. Other chain brands used the same would likely fail in the same way too. I've busted cutters off of Oregon LGX and Stihl RMC before too but only when I've hit something.


 
I've busted cutters off of both Oregon and stihl as well, but never snapped a chain in half thru the tie strap. Kinda odd to me...


----------



## MCW

wigglesworth said:


> I've busted cutters off of both Oregon and stihl as well, but never snapped a chain in half thru the tie strap. Kinda odd to me...



Actually it snapped about 6 off like that and many of the other cutters had big pieces of steel jammed in them from what it hit. All chains can snap like this but on .404" it probably wouldn't have broken except it had a 3120 pulling it.


----------



## blsnelling

You need to get that saw in some bigger wood for it to really shine. Matt, didn't you say it has compression now of around 180+ PSI? This is a work saw and was built for torque. You're simply not going to see everything it has until you really put it to work. My 440/460 would likely cut measurably faster in that wood. It simply makes a lot more RPMs.


----------



## MCW

blsnelling said:


> You need to get that saw in some bigger wood for it to really shine. Matt, didn't you say it has compression now of around 180+ PSI? This is a work saw and was built for torque. You're simply not going to see everything it has until you really put it to work. My 440/460 would likely cut measurably faster in that wood. It simply makes a lot more RPMs.



Yeah it's around that compression Brad. Andrew will sort it out mate I'm sure and show some vids illustrating just how much grunt this thing has.


----------



## MacLaren

AUSSIE1 said:


> Yeah I got virtually the same times.
> 
> If you go by your earlier times, this is almost a 12% increase.


 
I find this very interesting as I am almost ready to get a 660 myself. I want to see what the gains are in big wood. Goin by the saws i have I can only expect the same gains. However, the 660 may very well be that type saw that shoots from 11% to 20% in big wood. Which, if Im not mistaken 20% is the "norm" on gains?


----------



## Jacob J.

Ecopsey said:


> So let me get this rite, Your saying that a Modded saw has more torque" ("should" have I agree).
> But if your trying to convince me that a modded saw wont show its power only in BIG wood I say BS!!!!!


 
Mostly I agree with this statement Eric, however- my 'stock' MS-880 is slower in 10" wood with the same chain as my 'stock' 440. Both saws tuned to factory specs with the same mix, new air filters, new sprockets, etc.


----------



## ECsaws

Jacob J. said:


> Mostly I agree with this statement Eric, however- my 'stock' MS-880 is slower in 10" wood with the same chain as my 'stock' 440. Both saws tuned to factory specs with the same mix, new air filters, new sprockets, etc.


 
JJ is that because of RPM ? or Torque ?


----------



## gink595

I can believe that, my 7900 was waaay faster than my stock 880, even with 32" bar in the same wood. However what would be the reasoning for the same displacement saw not being much better than the modded saw.

Here is an example of my stock 880 in 8x8, and then the next video showing the improvements of ported. The ported saw was alot faster in the small wood?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nwA8m8cr6Ko" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iXMCQC25JZg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## Jacob J.

Ecopsey said:


> JJ is that because of RPM ? or Torque ?


 
I believe it has to do with the power band of the two motors and the RPM for which they're designed to make their power. The 880 is designed to make its power at a lower RPM and it has much more mass involved in the reciprocating assembly, clutch, clutch drum, and oil pump gears. My stock 880 turns the same RPM in the wood regardless if the wood is 10" or 40"- it's like a tractor in that respect. My 440, while fast in 10" wood, is much slower in 40" wood. All of the moving parts in the 440 are smaller and lighter so there's less inertia. 

There's more to saw performance than just how much power the motor makes. This is one reason some of those earliest saws had huge, heavy flywheels.


----------



## MacLaren

gink595 said:


> I can believe that, my 7900 was waaay faster than my stock 880, even with 32" bar in the same wood. However what would be the reasoning for the same displacement saw not being much better than the modded saw.
> 
> Here is an example of my stock 880 in 8x8, and then the next video showing the improvements of ported. The ported saw was alot faster in the small wood?
> 
> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nwA8m8cr6Ko" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/iXMCQC25JZg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



I took the best two times from stock vs modded which were:
Stock 1.81 & Modded 1:16 = a gain of 35%.
I see your point Frank. The ported saw was a lot faster than stock.


----------



## gink595

It picked up 6-7 tenths in a 8" cut, can you imagine what it would have been in a 30" piece?


----------



## MacLaren

gink595 said:


> It picked up 6-7 tenths in a 8" cut, can you imagine what it would have been in a 30" piece?


 
Yes I can. And, I would be willing to bet that saw is even more powerful than what we saw.


----------



## ECsaws

Jacob J. said:


> I believe it has to do with the power band of the two motors and the RPM for which they're designed to make their power. The 880 is designed to make its power at a lower RPM and it has much more mass involved in the reciprocating assembly, clutch, clutch drum, and oil pump gears. My stock 880 turns the same RPM in the wood regardless if the wood is 10" or 40"- it's like a tractor in that respect. My 440, while fast in 10" wood, is much slower in 40" wood. All of the moving parts in the 440 are smaller and lighter so there's less inertia.
> 
> There's more to saw performance than just how much power the motor makes. This is one reason some of those earliest saws had huge, heavy flywheels.


 
JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less:msp_wink:.
the discussion is that a modded 660 wont show it TOURQE unless its in BIG wood , quite simply I say thats a cop out, A "pathetic", excuse !
If you can't pull a saw off it power band in said wood by apply pressure thats torque. Yes the saw may show a better gain in bigger wood because its turning more RPM "not" because it has more grunt.
Guess I'll just sit back for now and wait on the BIG wood videos :msp_rolleyes:


----------



## Jacob J.

Ecopsey said:


> JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
> But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less


 
I was merely addressing your point that "size of the wood doesn't matter" when in fact, it does in some cases. I'm not privvy to the videos in this thread on my government connection since Youtube is blocked, so I cannot see what is happening there. 

Taking advantage of a broader torque band or an engine designed to make its power at a lower RPM is done just as you said- by using a larger sprocket and/or a larger pitch of chain. Again I refer you to antique saws making their power at 3k-6500 but pulling a 9/16" pitch chain on an 8-tooth spur gear with rakers as low as .065".


----------



## AUSSIE1

Ecopsey said:


> JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
> But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less:msp_wink:.
> the discussion is that a modded 660 wont show it TOURQE unless its in BIG wood , quite simply I say thats a cop out, A "pathetic", excuse !
> If you can't pull a saw off it power band in said wood by apply pressure thats torque. Yes the saw may show a better gain in bigger wood because its turning more RPM "not" because it has more grunt.
> Guess I'll just sit back for now and wait on the BIG wood videos :msp_rolleyes:


 
Man have you got issues! Go sort them out.

Just because some may disagree with you, you have to resort to derogatory comments.

Your #### stinks like everyone else's.

You are arguing/purposely offending so many with the same view on the topic.

If you are so right, deal with it in a more professional manner if at all possible.

To think that someone showing this pathetic behavior here is an administrator on another forum is mind boggling!


----------



## ECsaws

AUSSIE1 said:


> Man have you got issues! Go sort them out.
> 
> Just because some may disagree with you, you have to resort to derogatory comments.
> 
> Your #### stinks like everyone else's.
> 
> You are arguing/purposely offending so many with the same view on the topic.
> 
> If you are so right, deal with it in a more professional manner if at all possible.
> 
> To think that someone showing this pathetic behavior here is an administrator on another forum is mind boggling!


 
Maybe your rite maybe I did use some strong words sorry :msp_unsure:
I'm not criticizing anyone just simply voicing my opinion.
Perhaps we have a different view/'Opinion on what torque is?
to Me when I put a saw in the wood and it takes more load/bigger sproket what ever to pull it down thats torque witch in turn should cut faster rite ? I'm going to stand be hind what i said untill proven wrong !


----------



## mdavlee

The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not. 

I get what Eric is saying about having more torque means it should take more pressure or a bigger pin to slow it down. If it has more torque it should cut better in any size wood. In small wood the difference may be smaller than a bigger piece but the % of time it's faster cut should be close. 

I myself when I had the 2 7900s one was ported and one wasn't. The ported one ran quite a bit better than it did stock. The other one that I got later ran a lot better than the other did stock. If I remember right the ported one was only 10% faster than the second stocker. Was that kind of disappointing after the ported one gained a lot more than that over itself in the same piece of wood? Yes but that is how it is sometimes. I was just happy I didn't slow the 7900 down with porting with what little I knew at the time.


----------



## parrisw

I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. I get what Eric is saying. I'm kinda thinking the same I think. The modded saw needs a bigger sprocket or a more aggressive chain to show its true colours in that particular size and kind of wood. My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.


----------



## mdavlee

parrisw said:


> I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. I get what Eric is saying. I'm kinda thinking the same I think. The modded saw needs a bigger sprocket or a more aggressive chain to show its true colours in that particular size and kind of wood. My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.


 
The first video says 8 pin for both saws so I would think lowering the rakers would probably be the better solution to get that comparison and he might not have a 9 pin laying around to toss on them.


----------



## blsnelling

parrisw said:


> My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.


 
Which is basically the same thing as putting it in bigger wood. You're basiclly just putting more load on the engine.


----------



## parrisw

mdavlee said:


> The first video says 8 pin for both saws so I would think lowering the rakers would probably be the better solution to get that comparison and he might not have a 9 pin laying around to toss on them.


 


blsnelling said:


> Which is basically the same thing as putting it in bigger wood. You're basiclly just putting more load on the engine.


 
YEP, and YEP


----------



## solo

Why not get another factory chain and lower the rakers on it. Test both saws again with factory rake hight, then test them both again with the chain with lower rakers. Just a thought. Even play with gearing a bit.

I believe if a saw is geared properly for wood size and species power is power is power, big wood, small wood. hard wood, soft wood power will win in the end.


----------



## MCW

I think we're pretty well all on the same path when it comes to explaining torque but have different ways of expressing it. Basically in the first vid a few pages back the modified saw was pulling 2,000 more rpm that the stock saw yet cut times were similar. I can assure you that the more aggressive the chain the further ahead the modified saw will get...

Therefore more torque.


----------



## MacLaren

mdavlee said:


> The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not.
> 
> I get what Eric is saying about having more torque means it should take more pressure or a bigger pin to slow it down. If it has more torque it should cut better in any size wood. In small wood the difference may be smaller than a bigger piece but the % of time it's faster cut should be close.
> 
> I myself when I had the 2 7900s one was ported and one wasn't. The ported one ran quite a bit better than it did stock. The other one that I got later ran a lot better than the other did stock. If I remember right the ported one was only 10% faster than the second stocker. Was that kind of disappointing after the ported one gained a lot more than that over itself in the same piece of wood? Yes but that is how it is sometimes. I was just happy I didn't slow the 7900 down with porting with what little I knew at the time.


 
I think your right Mike. Ive thought all along that when put in bigger wood it will be about the same % difference. In other words I really think that it should cut as well in small wood as in big wood. Every ported saw I have ever seen does. Your 660 sure did. But...I could be wrong and I certainly will not pass judgement until I see the big wood video. Even then i wont pass judgement. I guess what Im sayin is prove it. Prove the theory that this 660 shines much better % wise in big wood vs a stock 660. Thats all, not tryin to be ugly or anything. Beacuse that is what is being said. That it will have to be put in big wood to shine. We shall see. I for one believe that power is power no matter the size of wood. Thanks guys.


----------



## parrisw

Yes, truth be told, its a waste of time picking up a 90cc+ saw in 20" wood, my modded 372 will outcut my modded 395 anyday, up to a certain size of wood. The 395 cuts the same with a 24" bar in 20" wood, or a 36" bar in 40" wood.


----------



## Stihlman441

mdavlee said:


> The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not.
> 
> Dont foget the stocky has a dual port muff standard on the Ozzy saws and i have a mate with a same age 660 and myne is better than his.


----------



## MCW

Just spoke to Andrew via phone and unfortunately when I posted the saw it got a small part broken off in transit (the small cast tab in front of the oil cap). Thankyou Australia Post you morons... The saw was registered (insured) and now the Post Office have to take the saw into their possession to assess it while Andrew got a quote to fix it - brace yourself gents (OK, those who are in the US etc) but the quoted cost from a Stihl dealer to fix it is around USD$1200!!! Not sure how long it will take. Regardless of whether there is larger wood around the effect can be simulated simply by continuously dropping the rakers and making the chain more aggressive. It will reach a point where the stock saw will start stalling and struggling while the modified one will continue on it's merry way. I know a few people here are probably trying to imply that the modified saw in question is not much faster (or torquier) than a stock 660 based on that first video but I can assure you that's not the case.

When Andrew asked the Post Office how long it will take for them to sort out the paperwork and approve the repairs the girl said "How long is a piece of string". A comment that really inspires confidence in our postal system...


----------



## AUSSIE1

Ecopsey said:


> Maybe your rite maybe I did use some strong words sorry :msp_unsure:
> I'm not criticizing anyone just simply voicing my opinion.
> Perhaps we have a different view/'Opinion on what torque is?
> to Me when I put a saw in the wood and it takes more load/bigger sproket what ever to pull it down thats torque witch in turn should cut faster rite ? I'm going to stand be hind what i said untill proven wrong !


 
I must apologize for my "fly off the handle". One of my many bad habits! 

Yes you do have an opinion, entitled to it and good you stand by it. 

I understand what your saying and don't disagree with it.


----------



## ECsaws

AUSSIE1 said:


> I must apologize for my "fly off the handle". One of my many bad habits!
> 
> Yes you do have an opinion, entitled to it and good you stand by it.
> 
> I understand what your saying and don't disagree with it.


 
Its all good Al we all do it . I think its called human nature.
I'll just shut up and wait for the big wood results.


----------



## mdavlee

What they want to fix it is more than a new one costs over here.

With lower rakers or a 36" bar in that concrete that grows into tree shapes over there should show a bigger difference in between stock and modded.


----------



## MCW

mdavlee said:


> What they want to fix it is more than a new one costs over here.
> 
> With lower rakers or a 36" bar in that concrete that grows into tree shapes over there should show a bigger difference in between stock and modded.


 

Yeah it's stupid mate. If the tab wasn't part of the case I wouldn't be so annoyed (and neither would Andrew). Basically the saw has been devalued through no fault of mine or Andrews and it was pretty well packaged - it would seem somewhere along the line it's been dropped end on and somehow snapped it off. I insured the saw for the same amount it would cost me to get a new modded one from ths states but even then it pulled up about $200 shy of a stock Aussie delivered 660. The parts were half the cost, the rest was labour.

As I mentioned when the same chain on this 660 that it was pulling easily with an 8 pin was put on my modded 390XP Husky it was just a nightmare with stalling. Even when I fitted the Husky with a 7 pin it was stalling too much. It just goes to show that a less powerful saw may not pull a chain set up for a different saw as easily. Bigger bars in bigger wood, lower rakers, more hook, more aggressive sharpening techniques, a heavier hand, a larger sprocket etc etc. They all add up to more load on a saw individually or in combination.


----------



## ECsaws

Correct me if I'm wrong here Matt are you insinuating that I'm discrediting this saw or it builder ? If so your way out of line cuz I'm NOT in any way and if it appears that way you have my deepest apology. I learnt along time ago two wrongs neaver make a rite.
just to clarify what I'm "trying" to say.
I dont disagree with lower rakers more aggressive chains bigger sprockets etc.... 
I do however question that the saws in the video that Andrew posted will get faster/stronger with said adjustments . It quite obvious by watching/listing to the videos that the saw is coming out of its powerband / not holding RPM in the wood, pulling down how ever you want to say it. Not that it cutting bad, cuz it runs quite nice, it maybe just what it is. After all most porters know 660 gains are hard to get they run quite well out of the box with a MM.
I actually have a new 660 here that belongs to a Professional faller from Idaho that will be used Solly for mega wood as he calls it:msp_thumbup:. I'm excited to see what's to be had in there.
I hope this post is more professional , Again sorry for my earlier outrage.


----------



## Stihlman441

Ok i have been working on a couple of chains as in lowering the rakers from .022' to .035' in 25'' and 36'' Stihl and Carlton semi chisel chains,im going to run some in vids before i take the saw back to the sick bay at the post office on monday.
Stay posted.(Australia Post are wankers) sorry they make me angry :msp_mad:


----------



## mdavlee

The exhaust is pretty high on the newer ones like around 170°. It is hit and miss on if it's a mahle cylinder or a stihl cylinder in them now too. The one I had made in 04/10 had a stihl cylinder on it.


----------



## Stihlman441

Ok you lot here we go again.
Same test but with a more aggresive chain.
Last time i used a Stihl semi chisel off the roll chain that had .022'' rakers,so this time i took them down to .040'' rakers and did it all again.First few cuts are with stock saw.
Last time hillbilly22 times were
Stock 8.13
Modded 7.78 in the pine (first)

Stock 21.56
Modded 19.0 in the spotted gum (second)

[video=youtube;Z31g3lLn7oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z31g3lLn7oo&nofeather=True[/video]


----------



## mdavlee

In the second log I timed the cuts at:

15.1
15.65
15.58

It seems to cut a lot quicker in that log with lower rakers.

In the first log I timed the stock one at:

8.22
8.44
8.13

The modded one at:

8.01
7.41
7.63
8.31
8.29

I did time everything twice and most were within .010 one my phone stopwatch.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> In the first log I timed the stock one at:
> 
> 8.22
> 8.44
> 8.13
> 
> The modded one at:
> 
> 8.01
> 7.41
> 7.63
> 8.31
> 8.29


 
If you'll notice, the cut times are directly proportional to the load that was put on the saw. The cuts with a lighter load and higher RPM "sound" faster, but always give a slower cut time. Those cuts made with a higher load and lower RPM are faster. I've always found that to be true with my ported saws. You have to give them a very healthy load to get the fastest cut times, exactly as you've seen here.

I still say you need to throw a 36" bar on there to show the real potential of the ported saw.


----------



## Stihlman441

Ya i think you are correct there Brad,when i get the saw back from the post office i will find a bigger stringybark and make the rakers about .030'' with a full skip chain on a 36'' bar and have another go.


----------



## Stihlman441

So with the second log dryish Spotted Gum

Stock 660 and standard chain .022'' rakers best time 21.56

Modded 660 and filed rakers at .040'' best time 15.10

Thats 30 % farster


----------



## parrisw

Stihlman441 said:


> So with the second log dryish Spotted Gum
> 
> Stock 660 and standard chain .022'' rakers best time 21.56
> 
> Modded 660 and filed rakers at .040'' best time 15.10
> 
> Thats 30 % farster


 
:msp_thumbsup:


----------



## MacLaren

How can ya say its a 30% gain w/no stock saw to compare too? The stock saw ran i think 20 seconds last run as compared to the 19 secomd run the modded did?


----------



## MacLaren

Furthermore, the times I got for the vid stihlman put up yesterday shows these gains:
8.22 vs 7.97 = 3.04% gain
8.78 vs 7.66 = 12.75% gain
8.19 vs 7.94 = 3.05% gain
I would just bet by these results that there is no way thats a 30% gain in that spotted gum. The last two runs show stock 20 and modded 19 i believe. it was hardly no gain at all. I just cant see a 30% from what it was just by lowerin the rakers? BTW, why no stock saw with the rakers lowered in the gum anyways?


----------



## MacLaren

And furthermore the last two modded runs were slower than stock.
not talkin about the spotted gum talkin about the last 2 of the 5 modded runs.


----------



## blsnelling

mdavlee said:


> In the first log I timed the stock one at:
> 
> 8.22
> 8.44
> 8.13
> 
> The modded one at:
> 
> *8.01*
> 7.41
> 7.63
> *8.31
> 8.29*


 


hillbilly22 said:


> Furthermore, the times I got for the vid stihlman put up yesterday shows these gains:
> 8.22 vs 7.97 = 3.04% gain
> 8.78 vs 7.66 = 12.75% gain
> 8.19 vs 7.94 = 3.05% gain
> I would just bet by these results that there is no way thats a 30% gain in that spotted gum. The last two runs show stock 20 and modded 19 i believe. it was hardly no gain at all. I just cant see a 30% from what it was just by lowerin the rakers? BTW, why no stock saw with the rakers lowered in the gum anyways?


 
You can throw out the slower cut times on the modded saw. As I pointed out yesterday, he wasn't loading the saw enough to show its potential. It doesn't sound right when making the cuts, but the fastest cut times will have the saw majorly loaded down, more than I would in normal use. You have to put that extra power to work. Otherwise, you end up with a saw pulling 2,000 more RPMs in the cut and not much faster cut times, exactly as shown in these vids.


----------



## MacLaren

At any rate thats falt out ridiculous to say that was a 30% gain in that spotted gum.. comeon now guys.............
I know you didnt claim it Brad, but my goodness man......
We all know that the gains are still the same. There is NO stock saw to compare to that 660 goin thru that gum. But, you as well as I and everyone knows it prolly would have ran high 15's low 16's at worst.


----------



## MacLaren

I didnt say anything yesterday out of respect and not tryin to hurt Brads feelings. But start throwin around 30% gains.......well dont blame me!


----------



## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> You can throw out the slower cut times on the modded saw. As I pointed out yesterday, he wasn't loading the saw enough to show its potential. It doesn't sound right when making the cuts, but the fastest cut times will have the saw majorly loaded down, more than I would in normal use. You have to put that extra power to work. Otherwise, you end up with a saw pulling 2,000 more RPMs in the cut and not much faster cut times, exactly as shown in these vids.


 
I understand Brad. But if we do that it will take a 95 foot bar and a 100,000 year old redwood to show its potential. From whats been shown it just aint there. And furthermore, from what i understand its hard to get good gains out of a 660 because they run so well outta the box. now thats not to say it cant be done though.


----------



## blsnelling

There are more gains to be had there, but I don't put them in most customers work saw.

32" full comp 8-pin

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vl77TVtfnaM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## MacLaren

That saw was runnin great. I bet those RW bars are nice too.


----------



## parrisw

hillbilly22 said:


> How can ya say its a 30% gain w/no stock saw to compare too? The stock saw ran i think 20 seconds last run as compared to the 19 secomd run the modded did?


 


hillbilly22 said:


> Furthermore, the times I got for the vid stihlman put up yesterday shows these gains:
> 8.22 vs 7.97 = 3.04% gain
> 8.78 vs 7.66 = 12.75% gain
> 8.19 vs 7.94 = 3.05% gain
> I would just bet by these results that there is no way thats a 30% gain in that spotted gum. The last two runs show stock 20 and modded 19 i believe. it was hardly no gain at all. I just cant see a 30% from what it was just by lowerin the rakers? BTW, why no stock saw with the rakers lowered in the gum anyways?


 


hillbilly22 said:


> And furthermore the last two modded runs were slower than stock.
> not talkin about the spotted gum talkin about the last 2 of the 5 modded runs.


 


hillbilly22 said:


> At any rate thats falt out ridiculous to say that was a 30% gain in that spotted gum.. comeon now guys.............
> I know you didnt claim it Brad, but my goodness man......
> We all know that the gains are still the same. There is NO stock saw to compare to that 660 goin thru that gum. But, you as well as I and everyone knows it prolly would have ran high 15's low 16's at worst.


 


hillbilly22 said:


> I didnt say anything yesterday out of respect and not tryin to hurt Brads feelings. But start throwin around 30% gains.......well dont blame me!


 


hillbilly22 said:


> I understand Brad. But if we do that it will take a 95 foot bar and a 100,000 year old redwood to show its potential. From whats been shown it just aint there. And furthermore, from what i understand its hard to get good gains out of a 660 because they run so well outta the box. now thats not to say it cant be done though.


 
WOW, your really on quite the Rant here EH?


----------



## MacLaren

parrisw said:


> WOW, your really on quite the Rant here EH?


 
A rant or just the cold hard truth?


----------



## parrisw

hillbilly22 said:


> A rant or just the cold hard truth?


 
Well, you seem to be the only one that wont let it die. 

Video's and times from video's are too subjective anyway, don't know why you care so much about something that is none of your business. The guy bought said saw, and likes it. So WTF?


----------



## MacLaren

parrisw said:


> Well, you seem to be the only one that wont let it die.
> 
> Video's and times from video's are too subjective anyway, don't know why you care so much about something that is none of your business. The guy bought said saw, and likes it. So WTF?



Will, Im sorry that was the way it worked out. I really am. I wish the results could have been better. But by all means if the customer is happy with 4-5% gains then thats all that matters. 
Ive said what I meant to say and thats it. As far as Im concerned I have nothin else to say other than I have lost a ton of respect for you and Brad and anyone else that tries to tell the AS community that there was 30% gain in that saw. You may wanna just let it rest while your ahead Will. You can go on and do what ya need to do to make me look like the bad guy, I really dont care because Will, I have the truth by my side. And its like my daddy told me son.....The truth will stand when the world's a fallin.....


----------



## blsnelling

hillbilly22 said:


> As far as Im concerned I have nothin else to say other than I have lost a ton of respect for you and Brad and anyone else that tries to tell the AS community that there was 30% gain in that saw.


 
Now wait one second. Where did I say that saw did or did not have a 30% gain? And what about the PMs we traded and you told me you have no beef with me? That's certainly not what I'm seeing here. If you don't want there to be a beef between us, then don't create it.



hillbilly22 said:


> A rant or just the cold hard truth?


 Sometimes it's not what you have to say, but how you say it that tells the truth. It's obvious you have an agenda. Again, I don't want a beef between us. Just stop the crap.


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## MacLaren

parrisw said:


> You've lost respect for me???????????????!!!!!!!!!! WTF dude, honestly I don't give a rats ass what you think of me. I never disputed anything, and I never do on these forums, I never said it was 30% or 5%. I'm just saying is all, all I read is post after post of you ranting away. So take it as you might. I'll lose no sleep tonight knowing that you don't respect me.


 
Will, ole buddy, please accept my apology then. I meant no disrespect as you did not say whether gains were made or not. 
But Will, please bear in mind that I was only tellin the truth, or as the home boys in the joint used to say "just keepin it real"
:rocker:


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## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> Now wait one second. Where did I say that saw did or did not have a 30% gain? And what about the PMs we traded and you told me you have no beef with me? That's certainly not what I'm seeing here. If you don't want there to be a beef between us, then don't create it.
> 
> 
> Sometimes it's not what you have to say, but how you say it that tells the truth. It's obvious you have an agenda. Again, I don't want a beef between us. Just stop the crap.


 
Your right Brad you didnt say you got 30% gain......but you sure as heck didnt say you didnt either.....in other words were lettin people believe that those gains were made? if not then I apologize. Just the truth Brad, nothin but the truth. And yes in the pms i did say no more beefs between us but its like i said, i wasnt gonn sit there and let that 30% gain claim slide right on by. But you would.


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## blsnelling

hillbilly22 said:


> Your right Brad you didnt say you got 30% gain......but you sure as heck didnt say you didnt either.....in other words were lettin people believe that those gains were made? if not then I apologize. Just the truth Brad, nothin but the truth. And yes in the pms i did say no more beefs between us but its like i said, i wasnt gonn sit there and let that 30% gain claim slide right on by. But you would.


 
There was only one sentence in one post that mentioned 30% gains. I didn't make that statement and I didn't endorse or solicit that statement. When MCW says the saw is significantly stronger than a stock 660, then you can take it to the bank. He has far more experience behind a saw than you or myself combined. Bottom line, it's very difficult to show the gains made in a saw with a video. I did not test that particular saw in the same wood before and after, so I'm making no claims as to a percentage gain.


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## Stihlman441

Hang on guys this is what i said



Stihlman441 said:


> So with the second log dryish Spotted Gum
> 
> Stock 660 and standard chain .022'' rakers best time 21.56
> 
> Modded 660 and filed rakers at .040'' best time 15.10
> 
> Thats 30 % farster


 
All im saying is the modded saw with a more aggresive chain cuts farster than a stock saw with standard chain.


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## komatsuvarna

Sum you guys need a beer! :msp_wink: lol


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## MacLaren

komatsuvarna said:


> Sum you guys need a beer! :msp_wink: lol


 
Uh...no. what they NEED is a 30% gain 660. BUT...what they got is a 4% gain 660.


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## blsnelling

hillbilly22 said:


> Uh...no. what they NEED is a 30% gain 660. BUT...what they got is a 4% gain 660.


 
Why don't you build one for them?


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## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> Why don't you build one for them?


 
Thats just it Brad. Im not making money off good people. If I did I would be an honest broker about it.


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## blsnelling

hillbilly22 said:


> Thats just it Brad. Im not making money off good people. If I did I would be an honest broker about it.


 
You're talking about that which you know nothing about. I delivered exactly what was requested. You're the one coming up will all these percentage numbers. MCW is very pleased with the performance of the saw. He has a MS660 with 180 PSI compression turning 2K RPMs more than a stock 660. I can build an even stronger saw, but I built him a saw solid work saw that stands up to the rigors of working in well over 100°F heat and never misses a beat.

Let me make one thing very clear. I don't need to please you. It's obvious that you have no interest in the performance of this saw. You're only goal is to try and tear me down. It takes a *mighty little man*, and I use that term loosely, to talk about something he knows nothing about, and take pot shots at someone else.


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## porky616

"never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience every time"

quote from the paper a few weeks ago and highly appropriate at this time i feel


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## dave k

I won't comment on certain posts made so far, but, posts like that make me wonder what guests think of us when they visit !
Chainsaw's unlike tractors for example can't be easily hooked up to a Dyno and be "read" to give an accurate power band etc. and even using same bars & chains on a video test is still at best a guess, i.e. knots, pressure applied etc.
I recently bought a saw from Brad, 441, and having followed his work since 2007 I did so without hesitation as he has always been forthcoming and if makes a mistake is the first one to admit it.
As to the saw read my post "Working with a modded saw" 
The most important question I asked Brad was, what power compared to a 460 ? he replied that it was more. Well having owned and worked 3 460's he undersold the saw, it has more power and is better in it's delivery of that power than a standard 460.
I am not for a moment saying "Brad is the best" etc but the man has integrity and a good depth of knowledge and has a good few saw's out there working and I know I'll be buying another.


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## 7oaks

dave k said:


> I won't comment on certain posts made so far, but, posts like that make me wonder what guests think of us when they visit !
> Chainsaw's unlike tractors for example can't be easily hooked up to a Dyno and be "read" to give an accurate power band etc. and even using same bars & chains on a video test is still at best a guess, i.e. knots, pressure applied etc.
> I recently bought a saw from Brad, 441, and having followed his work since 2007 I did so without hesitation as he has always been forthcoming and if makes a mistake is the first one to admit it.
> As to the saw read my post "Working with a modded saw"
> The most important question I asked Brad was, what power compared to a 460 ? he replied that it was more. Well having owned and worked 3 460's he undersold the saw, it has more power and is better in it's delivery of that power than a standard 460.
> I am not for a moment saying "Brad is the best" etc but the man has integrity and a good depth of knowledge and has a good few saw's out there working and I know I'll be buying another.


 
Well said Dave...All that is left is to call in "MYTH BUSTERS" and have them do one of their scientifically controlled tests.

:msp_biggrin:


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## blsnelling

dave k said:


> I recently bought a saw from Brad, 441, and having followed his work since 2007 I did so without hesitation as he has always been forthcoming and if makes a mistake is the first one to admit it.
> 
> I am not for a moment saying "Brad is the best" etc but the man has integrity and a good depth of knowledge and has a good few saw's out there working and I know I'll be buying another.


 
Thanks Dave. I appreciate that. HillBilly, what you think and say is of no concern to me. All you're doing is making yourself to look like a fool.


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## MacLaren

blsnelling said:


> Thanks Dave. I appreciate that. HillBilly, what you think and say is of no concern to me. All you're doing is making yourself to look like a fool.


 
LOL I thought I was on your "ignore list".........hahahaha


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## wyk

Stihlman441 said:


> Hang on guys this is what i said
> 
> [Area where Stihlman441 previously said stuff]
> 
> All im saying is the modded saw with a more aggresive chain cuts farster than a stock saw with standard chain.


 
You may want to put a stock chain on that ported 660 and try again and see how it compares to that older saw time as well. People like to see apples compared to apples. You'd be amazed how much faster I can make a chain cut with 15 minutes and a file. And if it only needs to last a few cuts, you can be very aggressive with a chain for a short video.


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## tdi-rick

wyk said:


> You may want to put a stock chain on that ported 660 and try again and see how it compares to that older saw time as well. People like to see apples compared to apples. You'd be amazed how much faster I can make a chain cut with 15 minutes and a file. And if it only needs to last a few cuts, you can be very aggressive with a chain for a short video.


 
Actually the more aggressive chain on the stock saw would be a better comparison, and I'd bet the time difference will be much the same. ie, the stock saw/aggressive chain won't get anywhere near the modded saw aggressive chain combo.


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## Stihlman441

Ha guys if ya go back to the vids we have done all this.:msp_smile:


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## Andyshine77

tdi-rick said:


> Actually the more aggressive chain on the stock saw would be a better comparison



In fir sure, but not in anything I cut or burn.:msp_wink:


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## wyk

Andyshine77 said:


> In fir sure, but not in anything I cut or burn.:msp_wink:


 

Stihlman - I thought you hadn't done the same chain in the larger wood. As Brad mentioned, a ported saw with a good sized bar in big wood makes a more obvious difference than in smaller wood.

Andy - I've used a very aggressive chain in oak, sycamore, ash, apple, elm, pecan, cherry, and maple with very good results. It won't last all day long, but it will cut enough to make firewood for a few weeks for a Taylor T500 furnace. Another thing east coasters forget is we do have hardwoods out here, we just have so much Fir that a lot of time is spent cutting that. And you really don't 'log' for hardwood here much. With 55" rain a year, a lot of stuff grows here and gets big. I have 3 Oaks on the property with trunks bigger than 3' DBH. But we let them stay coz they look awesome.

Here's our front 'yard', but it basically looks like this 360*:


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## Stihlman441

Cant do anymore with the modded saw for awhile its at the post office waiting for Australia Post to work out what they are going to do about the broken off oil cap tab thingy ,during being posted between Matt and me.


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## Chris J.

I usually stay out of these 'agument' threads, and what I'm about to post might me sound like an idiot (been there, done that, will do so again).


1. Get a broken-in stock 660 & the modded 660 in question in the hands of an experienced user.

2. Find a log of suitable size & wood type for the stock 660.

3. Find a bar & chain suitable for said log.

4. Do videos of both saws using the same b&c in the same log.

Then:

5. Find a log of suitable size & wood type for the modded 660 in question.

6. Find a bar & chain suitable for said log.

7. Do videos of both saws using the same b&c in the same log.

Then:

8. Let the folks viewing the videos decide if the modded 660 in question performs as well as expected compared to the stock 660.

Or am I overlooking something?


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## blsnelling

Stihlman441, does your 660 have a Mahle of Stihl topend? Just curious.


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## Stihl Rules

parrisw said:


> well, you seem to be the only one that wont let it die.
> 
> Video's and times from video's are too subjective anyway, don't know why you care so much about something that is none of your business. The guy bought said saw, and likes it. So wtf?


 
+1 wtf


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## Stihl Rules

Stihlman441 said:


> Cant do anymore with the modded saw for awhile its at the post office waiting for Australia Post to work out what they are going to do about the broken off oil cap tab thingy ,during being posted between Matt and me.


I cant imagine my saw being stuck in postal i would freak out especially a 660


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## Stihlman441

blsnelling said:


> Stihlman441, does your 660 have a Mahle of Stihl topend? Just curious.



Not sure which one it is.
You put up a pic up back near the start of this thread showing the marking Stihl on the left side (if the intake is at the rear) of the topend.There is nothing on mine and the right side cant see unless i take the topend off,but there is numbers and letters on the top near the spark plug.B inside a cycle and T16M and a S under.


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