# Oak ID: White vs. Red?



## Canyon Angler (Aug 18, 2006)

I was cutting some pushed-down oaks the other day, and I thought they were white oaks, but now I'm not sure.

I was always told that if the lobes on the leaves were round, the oak was white; and if the lobes on the leaves were pointed, it was red oak.

Well, the lobes on these leaves were round – but the heartwood of the tree was much darker (at least, from the end-grain view) than the sapwood. This led me to believe it was a red oak.

Can anyone give me any down-and-dirty methods for distinguishing the two? Do they ever "cross pollinate" or "hybrid," as for example with chestnut oaks?

Thanks for any tips.


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## NYCHA FORESTER (Aug 18, 2006)

Yup, the tree you are describing is in the White Oak Group.


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## trimmmed (Aug 18, 2006)

Look at your endgrain cuts, the red oak will look like a bunch of straws and the white oak will look smooth. With the exception of chestnut oak, which is the only porous white oak I think.

You can usually tell by the bark as well.


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## woodshop (Aug 18, 2006)

In my experience cutting up oaks, trees from both red and white oak groups all have darker heartwood than the sapwood, so that wouldn't be something to use to distinguish between red and white groups. Here in the Appalachian forsests of the east, red oaks tend to have more of a pinkish reddish heartwood, and white oaks tend to have a more greenish brown heartwood. There are exceptions to that depending on the soil and minerals where the tree grew, but in general that tends to be the case. I agree with trimmed though, bark is the easiest way to tell a white oak from a red, the white oaks have more of a flaky, papery kind of bark, where the red oaks often have deep furrows or plates.


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## fmueller (Aug 18, 2006)

Anyone ever notice that red oak stinks when you cut and split it. Or should I say has a certain aroma to it. Don't notice that on the white oaks.


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## Full Skip (Aug 18, 2006)

fmueller said:


> Anyone ever notice that red oak stinks when you cut and split it. Or should I say has a certain aroma to it. Don't notice that on the white oaks.



Yes, It smells like vomit to me.


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## Canyon Angler (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks, everyone.


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## woodchux (Aug 18, 2006)

White oak can have very red heartwood.


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## Freakingstang (Aug 19, 2006)

So where do Pin oaks fall into this? I thought I had a pin oak, but after your bark description and heartwood color, it sounds like white oak.

-Steve


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## trimmmed (Aug 19, 2006)

Pin oak is a red variety.


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## geofore (Aug 21, 2006)

*Red vs White*

The oak test, Red oak is open and white is not. Cut a piece about 2"-4" long and see if you can suck on it like a straw. Red will pass water or air and white will not. Cut red thin and you can see light right through it, white you can not. An older tree is easy to tell with the round lobe=white and pointed lobes=red. Young oak trees can have both round and pointed and are hard to tell apart. White oak seeds can be planted as is, thin skinned and red oak seeds need to be scarified to grow thick skin cover on the seeds.


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## buzz sawyer (Aug 21, 2006)

*Oak Aroma*

Right on about the red oak odor. Some of it downright stinks. White Oak - Quercus alba, smells like good boubon - or vice versa - due to the aging in oak. It's also called "stave oak" due to it's usefulness in making barrels for whisky and wine.


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## Freakingstang (Aug 21, 2006)

trimmmed said:


> Pin oak is a red variety.



Does it have the red oak scent to it? 

I must be the only one that likes to split a couple cords in an afternoon with the aroma of red oak....

I must have had a white oak. It didn't have the scent that red oak does at all, and had a flaky bark, with a dark brown heartwood and almost white sapwood, nothing like red oak.


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## 65x55BPD (Aug 25, 2006)

what group do water oaks and live oaks fall into?


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## trimmmed (Aug 25, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> Does it have the red oak scent to it?
> 
> I must be the only one that likes to split a couple cords in an afternoon with the aroma of red oak....
> 
> I must have had a white oak. It didn't have the scent that red oak does at all, and had a flaky bark, with a dark brown heartwood and almost white sapwood, nothing like red oak.



I turned a vase from some pin oak, the smell almost made me gag. I thought it smelt worse than your basic red, which doesn't bother me. The smell of that pin was bad enough I never turned another piece of that tree.

The bark on a pin looks like a red just not as pronounced. (looks like a "lite" version)


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## Urbicide (Aug 26, 2006)

Here is a link to Ohio's tree index. They have 15 species of oak listed. 

http://www.ohiodnr.com/forestry/trees/default.htm

Want any buckeyes?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 26, 2006)

65x55BPD said:


> what group do water oaks and live oaks fall into?



I'm not sure all Oaks fit into one or the other groups. The Red/White grouping is more of a general thing, rather than a taxonomic categorization.
Looking at the lobes can help you decide what group the tree comes from, to narrow down the ID possibilites.
If it doesn't have rounded, or pointed lobes, like the Water Oak, you know it's not from the Red or White groups. That only leave a handful of possibilities.


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## MS-310 (Aug 28, 2006)

Some one told me that there is 52 types of oak in the world any one Know????
Jack


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## trimmmed (Aug 28, 2006)

MS-310 said:


> Some one told me that there is 52 types of oak in the world any one Know????
> Jack




Not sure of the exact #, but yes, there are alot of them.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 28, 2006)

MS-310 said:


> Some one told me that there is 52 types of oak in the world any one Know????
> Jack


Michael Dirr lists 44 of them in his Manual of Woody Landscape Plants.


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## fmueller (Aug 29, 2006)

http://www.ohiodnr.com/forestry/trees/default.htm

I'm surprised this website didnt say anything about red oaks and thier susceptibility to the oak wilt. It seems to be pretty prevalent in my area. Maybe its just around here, but as soon as the tree gets it the leaves are gone in about 2 weeks and the trees a goner.


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## trimmmed (Sep 1, 2006)

65x55BPD said:


> what group do water oaks and live oaks fall into?



I don't know, but I do have a chunk of live oak here (sent up from texas by DarioMO, thank you  ) The wood looks like a white oak, but it is much heavier and more dense than any oaks (and some rocks) in this neck of the woods.


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## Ax-man (Sep 3, 2006)

geofore said:


> The oak test, Red oak is open and white is not. Cut a piece about 2"-4" long and see if you can suck on it like a straw. Red will pass water or air and white will not.
> 
> ???????? I have never heard of that one, is this for real.
> 
> Larry


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## trimmmed (Sep 3, 2006)

Yes, however chestnut oak(white) will let you get air thru it and it's possible a red that grew under stress may not let you get air thru it. But it does indeed work.


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## woodshop (Sep 3, 2006)

I'll say one thing about chestnut oak, it is one of the easiest splitting trees I ever worked with, almost as easy as ash. 

I can vouch for the blow through method mentioned above. I put on a little dog and pony show all about trees, wood and the different kinds, for home school groups, boy scout troops etc. One of the things I take to my presentation is a 10 inch long piece of red oak, about 2 inches square. I tell the kids to wet the back of their hand, and then place it at the end of my chunk of oak while I blow through it. You should see their eyes light up when they feel air that I am blowing THROUGH 10 inches of solid oak. Red oak is indeed very porous.


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## geofore (Sep 4, 2006)

*oaks*



MS-310 said:


> Some one told me that there is 52 types of oak in the world any one Know????
> Jack



When the whiteman first got to Pennsylvania there were 36 different kinds of oak here, now there are over 300 kinds of oak in Pennsyvaina. Lots of hybreds and oak brought in from elsewhere. 

Oak without the lobes, shingle oak comes to mind. They grow on spoil banks (strip mine spoils) without the stunted growth that happens to other oaks planted there. 

If you catch a red oak with the crown dead a year or two it will be the one oak that will piss a stream at you. 

Woodshop, I know you've been around wood if you've done the oak straw trick. I'd fill a jar with water and let them blow bubbles through longer and longer pieces of red oak and keep giving them shorter and shorter pieces of white oak and no bubbles. :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## jrizman (Sep 9, 2006)

Canyon Angler said:


> I was cutting some pushed-down oaks the other day, and I thought they were white oaks, but now I'm not sure.
> 
> I was always told that if the lobes on the leaves were round, the oak was white; and if the lobes on the leaves were pointed, it was red oak.
> 
> ...



http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/main.htm


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## brncreeper (Sep 9, 2006)

*Pin Oak*

This is a pin oak I cut up at the neighbors today. It's much lighter in color than bur oak. 
He said it was planted in 1957. The tree service took it down as far as they could. 
Most of the large cuts were done with my 3120 36" 404 pitch and 59J full skip chain. I used the 575 a little bit on the top cuts.









http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/gschildroth/Pinoak/pinoak_overhead.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/gschildroth/Pinoak/pinoak_dropped.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/gschildroth/Pinoak/pinoak_bucked.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e134/gschildroth/Pinoak/pinoak_base.jpg


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 9, 2006)

That's a Silver Maple!


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## brncreeper (Sep 9, 2006)

> That's a Silver Maple!


Thanks for the correction!


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## geofore (Sep 9, 2006)

*tree service?*

The tree service took down as far as they could??? They did the easy stuff and left the stump for the homeowner? Even with a small saw they could have taken it to within inches of the ground if they knew how to use a saw hammer and wedges. My thoughts are it was getting too big to handle easily and so they left it. When faced with a large tree and all you have is a small saw (reads short bar) you can do horizontal cuts a foot apart all the way around the tree about a foot apart. Tip burried, walk the saw around the tree, raise up a foot or so and do it again. Then tip in cut a vertical, move over 6" and cut a second vertical from the top of the upper horizontal to the bottom horizontal and hit it with your hammer to knock the wood out. Knock it out all the way around the tree. This gives you a space to get a second bite at the stump and from here you can get the tree (stump) over. If you need do a third horizontal, do it. Usually, you don't need to do a third horizontal. Reach in and do your notch and then back cut and over it goes. I did do 4' diameter cherry tree with a Husky 335 Cali and 14" bar this way to test the saw's preformance. Hey, the guy that modded the saw said it would preform and I was determined to find out or kill the saw trying. Needless to say, that was a brutal test for a trimming saw but it is was the first two tanks of fuel through the saw and it is a winner. If you can't plunge cut with your saws you need a better saw/chain setup. IMHO The tree service quit early because no one wanted to put out the effort to get the stump down all the way and have to load out the big stuff at the end of the day. Maybe they don't push their saws hard enough. Maybe they cut and run from the hard stuff. You don't leave a stump that big unless the homeownner asks you to.


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## brncreeper (Sep 10, 2006)

> The tree service took down as far as they could??? They did the easy stuff and left the stump for the homeowner? Even with a small saw they could have taken it to within inches of the ground if they knew how to use a saw hammer and wedges. My thoughts are it was getting too big to handle easily and so they left it. When faced with a large tree and all you have is a small saw (reads short bar) you can do horizontal cuts a foot apart all the way around the tree about a foot apart. Tip burried, walk the saw around the tree, raise up a foot or so and do it again. Then tip in cut a vertical, move over 6" and cut a second vertical from the top of the upper horizontal to the bottom horizontal and hit it with your hammer to knock the wood out. Knock it out all the way around the tree. This gives you a space to get a second bite at the stump and from here you can get the tree (stump) over. If you need do a third horizontal, do it. Usually, you don't need to do a third horizontal. Reach in and do your notch and then back cut and over it goes. I did do 4' diameter cherry tree with a Husky 335 Cali and 14" bar this way to test the saw's preformance. Hey, the guy that modded the saw said it would preform and I was determined to find out or kill the saw trying. Needless to say, that was a brutal test for a trimming saw but it is was the first two tanks of fuel through the saw and it is a winner. If you can't plunge cut with your saws you need a better saw/chain setup. IMHO The tree service quit early because no one wanted to put out the effort to get the stump down all the way and have to load out the big stuff at the end of the day. Maybe they don't push their saws hard enough. Maybe they cut and run from the hard stuff. You don't leave a stump that big unless the homeownner asks you to.



I don’t know all the details of why the tree service bailed out on the stump. The home owner said he had a saw with an 18” bar so obviously he was not going to get very far. It was easy for the tree service to take what they did. They used a boom truck to take nearly all of it down.
My 36” bar felt small for this tree. I had to come in on both sides to take out the wedge and to make the back cut. 
After the wedge slide out I made 4 plunge cuts in the center of the wedge in the shape of a square. I tried to make the cuts go all the way through to the back cut side but my bar was not long enough. My theory was to take out a small square shaped section from the center of the wedge to the back side and then make my back cut and add wedges. Since the bar was not long enough to get my centerpiece out I went ahead and did a back cut and hammered in two wedges. The thing tipped right over and shook the ground. I think the square shaped plunge cuts in the center on the wedge really did help even though the square itself could not be removed.
I think that’s kinda what you were doing with your 335 14”.
I agree. I don’t think the tree service wanted to push there saws too hard!


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