# Aqua logger busted with poached logs.



## dingeryote

From Fox news.

The state is saying the guy didn't have a permit for the "Salvage" of the logs.
Nice.... here's the guy removing Navigation hzzards from a waterway for free, and making a buck doing it, and der Kommisar writes him a ticket.

Doofus or not, he's nowhere near as messed up as his states DNR and politicians.




Stars of TV's 'Ax Men' Accused of Illegal Log Harvest
Friday, March 13, 2009 


SEATTLE — The state Department of Natural Resources has seized more than two dozen logs it says a timber crew featured on the History Channel's reality show 'Ax Men' salvaged illegally.

DNR chief enforcement officer Larry Raedel says officers served a search warrant Friday on S&S Aqua Logging to retrieve timber the company had pulled from the Hoquiam River.

Raedel says the company didn't have a permit to salvage those logs, and DNR officer were tipped off after watching the show.

Calls to the company were not immediately returned. The company is one of several timber crews featured in the second season of "Ax Men."

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Rookie1

What Bullcrap. Ill bet that guy was swearing up a storm when they showed up. Thats unbelieveable about the permit. What if one popped out and floated to your dock or riverfront. If you wanted it you would have to call the state.


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## slowp

I was wondering about that, since the fisheries people spend a lot of dollars and time putting logs INTO streams and rivers.


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## Jkebxjunke

i wonder if he will sue the history channel?


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## rngrchad

> The state is saying the guy didn't have a permit for the "Salvage" of the logs.
> Nice.... here's the guy removing Navigation hzzards from a waterway for free, and making a buck doing it, and der Kommisar writes him a ticket.
> 
> Doofus or not, he's nowhere near as messed up as his states DNR and politicians.



What are things coming to these days?! I wonder if the state will come up with a new LOG FISHING LICENSE that needs to be renewed yearly in order to pick up logs from streams...maybe they'll come up w/ a ROCK SKIPPING LICENSE that can be upgraded with a ROCK THROWING STAMP if you intend to also throw rocks while your at the river. Laugh now, but seriously this is the direction America is headed.


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## AKDoug

It doesn't surprise me. Just wait until the Coast Guard shows up to inspect that barge.


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## dingeryote

slowp said:


> I was wondering about that, since the fisheries people spend a lot of dollars and time putting logs INTO streams and rivers.



Around here the DNR spends good money hauling 'em out of the rivers so people don't punch a hole in thier boat and get injured.

Ain't this a twist... I don't like the guy, and I think he's a complete tool, but dadgummit, a guy trying to make an honest buck that isn't hurting anyone and doing a service to others getting hammered by the pinkos in power ticks me off.

What next. Folks out there needing a permit to clean up trash along the roads?

I know there are only like 3-4,000 good and sane people left in the PNW, but this is nuts.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## rngrchad

dingeryote said:


> Around here the DNR spends good money hauling 'em out of the rivers so people don't punch a hole in thier boat and get injured.
> 
> Dingeryote





Yep, the fisherman here in Ohio call those logs "DEAD HEADS". They cause many injuries and boat wrecks every year hear. My friend ripped off a lower unit from a 300 horse yamaha outboard a few years ago on a big sycamore deadhead snag just below the water surface. Scary scary stuff to think about when your ripping 60+mph going to the next fishing hole.


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## Jkebxjunke

rngrchad said:


> What are things coming to these days?! I wonder if the state will come up with a new LOG FISHING LICENSE that needs to be renewed yearly in order to pick up logs from streams...maybe they'll come up w/ a ROCK SKIPPING LICENSE that can be upgraded with a ROCK THROWING STAMP if you intend to also throw rocks while your at the river. Laugh now, but seriously this is the direction America is headed.



DONT GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!! this must be the 'change' they were talking about


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## forestryworks

bureaucracy at its finest :monkey:


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## fubar2

First Dwayne and now the comedy act. Axe Men aint gonna be worth watching before long.


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## tomtrees58

AKDogu said:


> It doesn't surprise me. Just wait until the Coast Guard shows up to inspect that barge.



you watch that's next:jawdrop: tom trees


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## treeclimber101

rngrchad said:


> What are things coming to these days?! I wonder if the state will come up with a new LOG FISHING LICENSE that needs to be renewed yearly in order to pick up logs from streams...maybe they'll come up w/ a ROCK SKIPPING LICENSE that can be upgraded with a ROCK THROWING STAMP if you intend to also throw rocks while your at the river. Laugh now, but seriously this is the direction America is headed.



When i read that post about a rock skipping license , I spit soda all over the keyboard , thanks alot warn us first before posting that kind of chit lololol


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## palogger

hey fairs fair, i mean when u buy logs from a salvage sale ur basically buying a permit to harvest them so y shouldn't aqua man have to


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## Jibber

Here's the Associated Press writeup on the story:

BC-Ax Men-Search Warrant,0194 Wash state: 'Ax Men' crew salvaged logs illegally Eds: APNewsNow.
SEATTLE (AP) - Washington state's Department of Natural Resources has seized more than two dozen logs it says a timber crew featured on the History Channel's reality show 'Ax Men' salvaged illegally.
DNR chief enforcement officer Larry Raedel says officers served a search warrant Friday on S&S Aqua Logging to retrieve timber the company had pulled from the Hoquiam River.
Raedel says the company didn't have a permit to salvage those logs, and DNR officer were tipped off after watching the show.
Calls to the company were not immediately returned. The company is one of several timber crews featured in the second season of "Ax Men."

(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
AP-NY-03-13-09 1952EDT


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## boltonranger

*So we're saying he poaches for the camera??*

I find this irritating.
If he broke a law - fine.
Literally.
Fine the company.
But confiscating the logs? Ridiculous.
They have no proof that the _actual_ logs in the warehouse came from where they claim.

I agree that he should pay a fine if he was supposed to have a permit.
But the idea that he's been "poaching"? On _camera_?

This isn't _narcotics_ we're talking about.
I really would like to see the officials here get a call from someone important. Some big-wig, or politician, and be forced to back the heck off.
(But I imagine A.L. isn't well connected enough, Perhaps the Beers company can help.)

I tell you what I think; I think the state saw dollars signs hearing about the high sales price of the wood; and said "Why that's just _wrong_ that *we* don't receive remuneration here."

I don't know any poachers of wild game etc..
But I've never even heard of a poacher setting up a deal to go on nationwide TV - _Have you?_

_I agree_; the Aqualogger is a loose cannon at best; and his marine skills are crude; So make him take a boating safety course, and properly equip his vessel. I think a lawyer could argue that these logs are not necessarily "salvage" as a marine vessel is termed.

I feel bad for the guy - clearly A.D.D. and a few other things; but I think he ought to fight this.

The logs have no locator badge; no branding - clearly the state / d.e.p. was too lazy to remove them.

I think this is really political and is based purely on State Profit.
They just want something new to tax, charge fees for and regulate.
$10,000 log = $4,000 for the states general operating budget.
UGH! Makes me *sick*.:censored:
-br


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## 2dogs

I responded in the chainsaw forum before I looked here. In my county those logs are " large woody debris" and are sacred cows. The county won't clear any streams anymore, not even log jams.


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## treeclimber101

You know what if some poor smo figured out a way to sell a fart, some :censored:head from the state would figure out a way to measure that fart and tax accordingly. I don't think that dude is much of a problem why not go after walmart for all the :censored: that they get away with


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## smokechase II

*What I want*

I would really like it if some river preservation wildlife agency would show up to arrest the aqua logger and then those professionals would loose their temper, curse at one another, shout and throw safety gear. 

Maybe somebody from the above agency would quit for three days.

=============

In a court of law any good lawyer could easily prove that those logs are not a danger. If the aqua logger, with his fabulous barge, could not get hurt by those logs then where is the hazard?


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## slowp

2dogs said:


> I responded in the chainsaw forum before I looked here. In my county those logs are " large woody debris" and are sacred cows. The county won't clear any streams anymore, not even log jams.




That is the way it is in our state, which happens to be Aqua man's state. However, during a flood emergency, the different agencies yell at each other.
An excavator was moving a log jam away from a bridge, and an environmental agency guy started yelling at him and then a State Patrol guy threatened to haul the environmental guy to jail if he didn't leave. That's a flood legend, I'm not sure of the truth of it.

In Oregon, timber fallers were hired to fall LARGE TREES. Trees of the size which would be prevented from being sold to mills. The trees were picked up with one of Columbia Helicopter's ships, flown to streams and placed in the streams for fish habitat improvement. There's quite an investment in those fish logs, which I suspect wash on down into the ocean then onto the beach where one can cut them up for firewood. The news people were all out filming the helicopter operation and speaking well of it. Large trees cut for mills=bad. Large trees cut for fish=good. Go figure.

I'm not upset over him being busted. He needs to get the same treatment as the rest of the populace. If permits are required, he needs to get one. To log your own land here, you have to get a permit. And the state does need some of the revenue. We don't do income tax here.


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## slowp

Yesterday's updated version:

State takes 'Ax Men' logs
Agency says crew didn't have permit
By PHUONG LE
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

_The state Department of Natural Resources has seized more than two dozen logs it says a timber crew featured on the History Channel's reality show "Ax Men" salvaged illegally.

DNR officers served a search warrant Friday on S&S Aqua Logging to retrieve timber the company had pulled from the Hoquiam River without a permit, said the agency's chief enforcement officer, Larry Raedel.

Officers were tipped off after watching the popular series, which chronicles the lives of Pacific Northwest timber cutters, including a father-son team from Aberdeen-based S&S Aqua Logging.

DNR officials discovered that the company did not have a permit from DNR or from the state Department of Fish and Wildlife to salvage those logs from the riverbed.

"These are valuable materials that belong to the public, and this looks like theft, plain and simple," said state Public Lands Commissioner Peter Goldmark.

A call and an e-mail to the company and e-mails seeking comment from the History Channel were not returned.

"We determined that this outfit was taking logs that were submerged in the mud," Raedel said.

"They were taking it illegally."

Greg Hueckel, Fish and Wildlife's habitat programs director, said logs in the river belong to the state.

Logs provide a key function for rivers in trapping sediment, harboring insects and other food for fish and creating pools and riffles where fish can rest.

"They are part of the functioning ecosystem, so removing the log would be like removing part of the bed," he said.

Hueckel said his agency does grant permits to remove logs but typically in situations where flooding causes log jams. It's unlikely that a permit would be granted for timber harvest, he said.

On Friday, DNR officials searched property near Hoquiam, in Grays Harbor County.

Raedel said the company had been storing salvaged logs there with permission from the property owner.

Grays Harbor Undersheriff Rick Scott said his deputies assisted in executing the search warrant.

The timber seized included 20 mature trees as well as smaller wood products, between 6 and 10 feet in length.

The largest logs are about 20 to 30 feet long and about 3 feet in diameter, Raedel said.

Jimmy Smith, who owns and operates S&S Aqua Logging, said on the show that the logs were worth about $10,000, according to search warrant records.

This season's "Ax Men" features two timber crews from Washington, two from Oregon and one from Montana._


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## olyman

certain government officials need their job taken away--as he said--the logs werent marked or branded in anyway--PROVE where they came from--they are looking for a easy mark---they need to be PUNISHED---not him--


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## Sawmill

I am not sure but I thick in Michigan you have to have a permit to take logs out of the river systems. I know some guys that were taking them out of the a river well know for floating logs in the logging days and they were informed that if they took any more they could be put in jail and be fined. This was over 20 years ago. The logs they had all were stamped on the ends with the company names and they did alot of research on the companies to get some history. They told me of diving in some of the bayou's and finding piles of log ends that someone had cut and left lay. They retrieved these and after they dryed out put them on a wall in there garage.


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## sawyerloggingon

While watching last axman I said to my wife, I wonder what kind of permit you need for that, Now i know. You'd think the guy would of looked into this but after watching his 3 stooges logging show I'm not surprised he didn't.


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## Jkebxjunke

the DNR is probably broke.. and they figured that confiscating the logs then selling them to make some $$ now I bet if he was a native from one of the local tribes .. everything would be just fine and dandy...


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## Outlaw5.0

The DNR and government are out of control!.


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## thejdman04

Thats ridiculous. How can they prove where the trees came from? Dont you kind of have to be caught in the act? How is the common man supposed to follow all of the rules and regulations? If you try to read the laws they are riddled with legal jargon. I would have never guessed or thought that you would need a licese to pull timber that has been in the water for years. How is the average man supposed to know that. Why are we paying representatives to dream up these laws, and who thinks to make up laws like this. What is the dnr gonna do with the logs?


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## SuperDuty335

I suppose Aqua man will have to give up the customers he has so the quacks can retrieve the mantels from their living rooms. 

Just imagine how long it took that guy to gather two dozen logs!


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## treeclimber101

thejdman04 said:


> Thats ridiculous. How can they prove where the trees came from? Dont you kind of have to be caught in the act? How is the common man supposed to follow all of the rules and regulations? If you try to read the laws they are riddled with legal jargon. I would have never guessed or thought that you would need a licese to pull timber that has been in the water for years. How is the average man supposed to know that. Why are we paying representatives to dream up these laws, and who thinks to make up laws like this. What is the dnr gonna do with the logs?


Watch what you say , if he argues that point they will probably hire a dna scientist for 40,000 dollars to identify that the guy illegally harvested 2000 dollars worth of lumber no one gave a :censored: about .You laugh that is what this country does to prove a point .


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## mantis

What is happening to our country? What they just did is take more than 240,000 dollars out of the economy.They were probably tiped off by some underwater tree hugger that has nothing else better to do with his time than molest little fishies  people like this really piss me off


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## Humptulips

I remember quite a few years ago there was an outfit salvaging logs from the Hoquiam River. They had permits and were eventually made to stop. Stirred up to much gunk off the bottom. The Hoquiam is all mud bottom and a lot of stuff must have got thrown in the river in the early days. The river gave up a lot of oily stuff when they pulled the logs up.
In the early days and up to the 80s logs were rafted in the Hoquiam. There were a lot splash dams sending logs down river plus railroad out fits like Polsons, Greenwood (thats how Boeing aircraft got their start) and later Rayonier plus a few smaller truck logging companies.
All those logs that sunk would either have a brand and belong to the company that owned the registered brand or if no brand they would belong to the land they were on. That would be the state as the state owns everything below the high tide mark. Like it or not you don't just go out and find a log. Someone claims ownership and you better have their permission to take the logs.


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## rngrchad

Outlaw5.0 said:


> The DNR and government are out of control!.



Tell me about it! I graduated w/ a Natural Resources Degree...along with National Forest Ranger Training school. Had all my certs, police officer training and everything. The problem was I didn't let the enforcement schooling alter my personal state of mind and therefore I quickly became an "outcast" as far as the graduating class was concerned. I was too unwilling to be Politically Correct about everything and simply couldn't sugar coat stuff in a way that made the DNR teachers and professors like me. I was me, and they couldn't stand me for it. If I learned one thing, it's that the folks who were in my required DNR training courses were a bunch of clueless liberals who wanted to get a gun and a badge so they could write tickets and catch bad guys in the forests. I remember sitting in classes where we went over procedure on how to enact new laws into park-guidelines. We were taught how to put down speed bumps, setup stop signs, use radar detectors yadda yadda.... I could go on and on for pages and pages about this. I had better stop now before I get too amped up. Needless to say a rare few of my graduating class had any passion whatsoever for the inherent usefullness that our natural resources offer us...rather they all seemed to have the mentality(and might I add if they didn't at first, after the schooling they changed their mind) that human utilization of our resources was primarily a thing to be worried about and stopped.


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## Metals406

Hmmm... All we have to do is read a little history.



> "If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted, laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish purposes. Corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws, the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded."
> *--NOAH WEBSTER*





> "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." --*Thomas Jefferson*





> "Find out just what people will quietly submit to, and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
> *--FREDERICK DOUGLAS*





> "Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws." "It is also in the interests of a tyrant to keep his people poor, so that they may not be able to afford the cost of protecting themselves by arms and be so occupied with their daily tasks that they have no time for rebellion."
> *--ARISTOTLE*



And finally...



> "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." *-- Samuel Adams*


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## A. Stanton

You got to wonder if collecting discarded aluminum cans along the highway would put you in the same boat--no pun intended. You are harvesting a valuable resource and the state isn't gettin a cut.


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## treeclimber101

A. Stanton said:


> You got to wonder if collecting discarded aluminum cans along the highway would put you in the same boat--no pun intended. You are harvesting a valuable resource and the state isn't gettin a cut.



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!


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## Burvol

slowp said:


> That is the way it is in our state, which happens to be Aqua man's state. However, during a flood emergency, the different agencies yell at each other.
> An excavator was moving a log jam away from a bridge, and an environmental agency guy started yelling at him and then a State Patrol guy threatened to haul the environmental guy to jail if he didn't leave. That's a flood legend, I'm not sure of the truth of it.
> 
> In Oregon, timber fallers were hired to fall LARGE TREES. Trees of the size which would be prevented from being sold to mills. The trees were picked up with one of Columbia Helicopter's ships, flown to streams and placed in the streams for fish habitat improvement. There's quite an investment in those fish logs, which I suspect wash on down into the ocean then onto the beach where one can cut them up for firewood. The news people were all out filming the helicopter operation and speaking well of it. Large trees cut for mills=bad. Large trees cut for fish=good. Go figure.
> 
> I'm not upset over him being busted. He needs to get the same treatment as the rest of the populace. If permits are required, he needs to get one. To log your own land here, you have to get a permit. And the state does need some of the revenue. We don't do income tax here.




Kind of like how I plugged a few streams with my strip on some highlead ground a few years back. I asked the ram rod that laid out my unit what I was to do about the stream that was at the bottom of my unit. The only way to lay out the strip was to sidehill (severly steep draw); that meant I had to start plugging the creek with tops quartered in. He said go for it, the DNR said it's ok. What? I told them that 40 miles down the road on a private sale we would be fined and possibly jailed....The state does what they want. Period.


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## davej

dingeryote said:


> Ain't this a twist... I don't like the guy, and I think he's a complete tool, but dadgummit, a guy trying to make an honest buck that isn't hurting anyone and doing a service to others getting hammered by the pinkos in power ticks me off.



Well, this guy hasn't displayed any intelligence yet so the fact that he didn't _ASK_ anyone about the legality of the idea isn't surprising. His whole operation looks worse than a clown circus. Pulling huge logs out and stirring up the sediment might not be too good for nesting fish, so the issuing of permits might limit the season when this can be done.


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## treeclimber101

You have too be little crazy to want to put yourself out there like that , If you go on tv doing the type of work that we all do you will be critized fined and booed by alot of people. The treehuggers don't like the loggers, Osha likes all construction workers because were job security and the state likes when people pop out the woodwork so they can tax them. How about we go back to quiet unknown existence where no one bothers us, being famous isn't what its cracked up to be. But i think its to late .


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## slowp

Most people know that waterways are state property. That's a good thing because it means that the waterways are open to fish on, boat on, and recreate on. Were they private property, I wouldn't own any kayaks and most all the fishing would be out of reach. 

Taking into consideration the past exaggerations about value of logs on this program, I seriously doubt that every log he pulled out is worth, $10,000. If so, how come the river wasn't wall to wall boats roping logs? That area is a depressed area, and such an opportunity would not have been overlooked. 

mgrchad: I work with a forest cop, who is pretty darn strict. He'll write anybody up if he catches them doing something illegal. He's had guys that were on vacation here, pull out their cop identification to try to get out of a ticket, and he has told them they should know better, and written them up. That's a good thing because if somebody accuses him of being prejudiced, he can deny it. The guy isn't well liked by our community, yet is a major supporter of people carrying guns LEGALLY. He has several articles tacked up on his wall about supporting that cause. 

Should something bad be going on, I'd be glad to have him on my side.


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## smokechase II

*Aqua cops.*

*"Thats ridiculous. How can they prove where the trees came from? Dont you kind of have to be caught in the act?"*

TiVo could provide some assistance as to where the logs came from. If you could get the Discovery Channel film view to stop laughing they might provide witness testimony.

Where the Wash DNR is showing itself to be incompetent is that they didn't wait until the end of this years filming for confiscation of said illegal logs.

Think cash flow.

============

This all should have been sold over to the COPS TV program where they could have brought in a scuba swat task force to take down the barge.

============

With regard to what is in or on public property being yours.
Drop it. There are 300+ million joint owners if it is on federal and varying other numbers of co-owners if it is on state or other public ownership. No one has the right to steal from the rest of us. 

D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y. 

What’s that spell?


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## Jacob J.

An $80 permit would have saved everyone in this scenario a lot of headache. I don't watch this show, but I do know this- if the Discovery channel is going to film professional loggers at work, then the loggers need to be professionals. This includes getting the necessary permits to conduct their activities. A special use permit would have allowed this company to legally salvage the wood and they wouldn't have been exposed on national TV for being a bunch of hillbilly hackjobs. In the 20 years I've been in the business, I've done it by the book and saved myself a lot of heartache. 

The states don't get big bucks for salvage permits. Here, on state lands, you can do roadside salvage on small sales for $60/thousand. That's nothing. River salvage is more but the state is required to do an impact survey on how much damage removing the logs from the riverbed is going to do. If they don't- they face complaints and potential lawsuits from the Fly fishing and angler's associations. It's happened before. 

I'm all for government getting out of the way of private industry but there's a minimum of regulation that needs to happen. If you let the loggers go wild, then the sportman's groups and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the sportsman's groups go wild, then the loggers and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the environmentalists have their way, then the loggers, sportman's groups, and john q. public get all pissy.


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## Jkebxjunke

ya know .. one would think that the tv shows lawyers would have check things out... to cover their butt.. now I wonder if the network could some how be held liable... now there is where the real $$ is and i would nt be surprised if the DNR tried to bring suit against the network and the shows producers


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## smokechase II

*Unless*

*"ya know .. one would think that the tv shows lawyers would have check things out... to cover their butt.. now I wonder if the network could some how be held liable... now there is where the real $$ is and i would nt be surprised if the DNR tried to bring suit against the network and the shows producers."*

=============

If the Discovery Channel did not encourage Aqua Logger Man to do something illegal then they are just the reporters.

However, they did make a run for gas in their boat to help out the winch operation.

I doubt that the Discovery folks could be successfully sued.


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## rngrchad

slowp said:


> mgrchad: I work with a forest cop, who is pretty darn strict. He'll write anybody up if he catches them doing something illegal. He's had guys that were on vacation here, pull out their cop identification to try to get out of a ticket, and he has told them they should know better, and written them up. That's a good thing because if somebody accuses him of being prejudiced, he can deny it. The guy isn't well liked by our community, yet is a major supporter of people carrying guns LEGALLY. He has several articles tacked up on his wall about supporting that cause.
> 
> Should something bad be going on, I'd be glad to have him on my side.



Yeh "forest cops" may be what the forest ranger has evolved into during this day and age; whether I like it or not. Good to hear your friend is an honest straight-up calls it from the book kind of guy. I personally was just not prepared nor ready to make the jump into being a forest ticket nazi, and therefore was kind of blind-sided by the majorities mentality on how excited the DNR grads were to get their issued guns and learn how to properly fill out tickets and enact new regs. It's important stuff I know, and I shouldn't hold such a druther like I do, but I have a hard time letting it go. Maybe deep down I'm just jealous I didn't utilize my degree like they did.... Anyways, cheers.


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## 2dogs

Jkebxjunke said:


> ya know .. one would think that the tv shows lawyers would have check things out... to cover their butt.. now I wonder if the network could some how be held liable... now there is where the real $$ is and i would nt be surprised if the DNR tried to bring suit against the network and the shows producers



Using Cali logic then History and Ax Men and Thom Beers will all be named on the lawsuit. Or lawsuits. Here every enviro group including those formed after they heard about lawsuit will demand money from the deep pockets. I think it is the sole purpose of some enviro groups.


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## Humptulips

Jacob J. said:


> An $80 permit would have saved everyone in this scenario a lot of headache. I don't watch this show, but I do know this- if the Discovery channel is going to film professional loggers at work, then the loggers need to be professionals. This includes getting the necessary permits to conduct their activities. A special use permit would have allowed this company to legally salvage the wood and they wouldn't have been exposed on national TV for being a bunch of hillbilly hackjobs. In the 20 years I've been in the business, I've done it by the book and saved myself a lot of heartache.
> 
> The states don't get big bucks for salvage permits. Here, on state lands, you can do roadside salvage on small sales for $60/thousand. That's nothing. River salvage is more but the state is required to do an impact survey on how much damage removing the logs from the riverbed is going to do. If they don't- they face complaints and potential lawsuits from the Fly fishing and angler's associations. It's happened before.
> 
> I'm all for government getting out of the way of private industry but there's a minimum of regulation that needs to happen. If you let the loggers go wild, then the sportman's groups and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the sportsman's groups go wild, then the loggers and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the environmentalists have their way, then the loggers, sportman's groups, and john q. public get all pissy.



I don't know what the permit costs would be if you got one but I can guarantee you the DNR and WDFW would never issue a permit for this. Doesn't matter the impact. Salmon streams are sacrosanct and every stream up here is considered a salmon stream, no matter how muddy. 
It is kind of funny talking about siltation though. The Hoquiam in tide water which is where this took place is nothing but mud and I do mean mud not dirt.


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## Jkebxjunke

2dogs said:


> Using Cali logic then History and Ax Men and Thom Beers will all be named on the lawsuit. Or lawsuits. Here every enviro group including those formed after they heard about lawsuit will demand money from the deep pockets. I think it is the sole purpose of some enviro groups.



well here there is a group that their slogan is "education through litigation"


----------



## powerstroke73L

Jacob J. said:


> An $80 permit would have saved everyone in this scenario a lot of headache. I don't watch this show, but I do know this- if the Discovery channel is going to film professional loggers at work, then the loggers need to be professionals. This includes getting the necessary permits to conduct their activities. A special use permit would have allowed this company to legally salvage the wood and they wouldn't have been exposed on national TV for being a bunch of hillbilly hackjobs. In the 20 years I've been in the business, I've done it by the book and saved myself a lot of heartache.
> 
> The states don't get big bucks for salvage permits. Here, on state lands, you can do roadside salvage on small sales for $60/thousand. That's nothing. River salvage is more but the state is required to do an impact survey on how much damage removing the logs from the riverbed is going to do. If they don't- they face complaints and potential lawsuits from the Fly fishing and angler's associations. It's happened before.
> 
> I'm all for government getting out of the way of private industry but there's a minimum of regulation that needs to happen. If you let the loggers go wild, then the sportman's groups and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the sportsman's groups go wild, then the loggers and environmentalists get all pissy. If you let the environmentalists have their way, then the loggers, sportman's groups, and john q. public get all pissy.



Congratulations on authoring one of the most level headed common sense posts in this thread. The minute anyone talks about government regulation of ANYTHING on this board people come out of the woodwork (pardon the pun) to condemn it. The state of New Jersey charges me $15 for a permit to cut a cord of wood in the state forest near my home. Is that too much government regulation? Should the state just allow folks to hit the parks and cut whatever they feel like whenever they feel like it? Also, I'm sure that the permit for taking sunken timber specifies WHEN you can do so. If this guy was out there hoisting up logs next to my duck blind or fly fishing spot during the prime time of the season you bet I'd turn him in.


----------



## bogiemsn

rngrchad said:


> Yep, the fisherman here in Ohio call those logs "DEAD HEADS". They cause many injuries and boat wrecks every year hear. My friend ripped off a lower unit from a 300 horse yamaha outboard a few years ago on a big sycamore deadhead snag just below the water surface. Scary scary stuff to think about when your ripping 60+mph going to the next fishing hole.



Huhmmm...? Maybe your friend bears some responsibility for going too fast for conditions. When did it become imperative that we get to the next fishing hole in record time. Fishing used to be about relaxing.


----------



## Grande Dog

Howdy,
Couple of things surprised me in this thread. I really can't begin to understand that with all the time, and money involved that no one checked for permits. I don't want this to be another east vs. west thing but, when you look at the posts in this thread, it seems pretty divided. The east seems to be "outraged" and west is like "should have known better". Is there really this big of difference between the environmental rules, and or the knowledge of them, or their enforcement from east to west. The whole reason these situations became litigious is because the fines (just like other industries) didn't have any teeth. There was nothing to stop folks from doing whatever they wanted, pay the fines, and still smell like a rose. THP's and EIR's are the rules and I don't know anybody who skirts them these days. According to his resume, Aquaman's family has been in the business for generations. He should have been well aware that there are rules, if not the rules themselves. As far as the logs being marked. When they were cut, they probably realized that someday they'ld have to pay to clean up what Aquaman's doing for free.
Regards
Gregg


----------



## smokechase II

*Triple*

*"Couple of things surprised me in this thread. I really can't begin to understand that with all the time, and money involved that no one checked for permits. I don't want this to be another east vs. west thing but, when you look at the posts in this thread, it seems pretty divided. The east seems to be "outraged" and west is like "should have known better". Is there really this big of difference between the environmental rules, and or the knowledge of them, or their enforcement from east to west. The whole reason these situations became litigious is because the fines (just like other industries) didn't have any teeth. There was nothing to stop folks from doing whatever they wanted, pay the fines, and still smell like a rose. THP's and EIR's are the rules and I don't know anybody who skirts them these days. According to his resume, Aquaman's family has been in the business for generations. He should have been well aware that there are rules, if not the rules themselves. As far as the logs being marked. When they were cut, they probably realized that someday they'ld have to pay to clean up what Aquaman's doing for free."*

===============

I know of a few instances over the years where guys have gotten caught flat out stealing timber.

The fine was triple stumpage - which I think is common. 
A USFS LEO told me one so-and-so just wrote out a check, smiled and said "cost of doing business". Made the Law Guy fairly mad that the fine wasn't more.

I noticed that there was an attempt to bill for ecological loss with some cedar stolen up in _Warshingtun_ about a year ago. The ecological value was way up there in the article.

===============

I suspect that aqua man logger guy (Amlog) would also wish that he hadn't mentioned dollar value when milling the wood.


----------



## Jacob J.

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Couple of things surprised me in this thread. *I really can't begin to understand that with all the time, and money involved that no one checked for permits.*



That was a part of my point- The Discovery channel is filming "professional" loggers. Come on now, people in the business know better. 



Grande Dog said:


> According to his resume, Aquaman's family has been in the business for generations. He should have been well aware that there are rules, if not the rules themselves.
> Regards
> Gregg



My theory is that he was scrambling to find a scenario suitable for the filming of the show, and decided to just go out find a place a to pull some wood out of a river on the fly. This guy has to be intelligent and experienced enough to know the regs. I've talked to film crews from the Discovery channel before, when they would come onto the firelines during the making of "Into the Firestorm" and they truly were clueless. At least in that situation, the Forest Service (or whatever agency has the overhead team on that particular incident) assigns them a Liaison officer who keeps them out of trouble. It could be that they didn't have that luxury while filming these loggers. Either way it shakes out, the owner of the aqua logging company ends up looking really stupid and the reputation of the company is tarnished.


----------



## *tedd*

*Fart punch card!*

It won't be long until we need a permit and a punch card for every time we fart.......I wonder if I can get an extra punch card at Walmart.


----------



## slowp

Jacob J. said:


> That was a part of my point- The Discovery channel is filming "professional" loggers. Come on now, people in the business know better.
> 
> 
> 
> My theory is that he was scrambling to find a scenario suitable for the filming of the show, and decided to just go out find a place a to pull some wood out of a river on the fly. This guy has to be intelligent and experienced enough to know the regs. I've talked to film crews from the Discovery channel before, when they would come onto the firelines during the making of "Into the Firestorm" and they truly were clueless. At least in that situation, the Forest Service (or whatever agency has the overhead team on that particular incident) assigns them a Liaison officer who keeps them out of trouble. It could be that they didn't have that luxury while filming these loggers. Either way it shakes out, the owner of the aqua logging company ends up looking really stupid and the reputation of the company is tarnished.



I'm thinking they needed filler for when the one helicopter company pulled out.
They had been filming the helicopter up around Darrington last summer, and had interviewed and filmed the crew. Then that company said no so the film was no good and they probably needed something in a hurry. The show is quite the soap opera--yet a manly one.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## *tedd*

*Ax man busted!*

I live in the area of the "big bust." I'm getting a big charge out of all the agencies shaking hands with themselves over a guy trying to make a living by pulling a few deadheads out of the Hoquiam river. Pretty soon, we will need a permit and punch card just to fart.

Here is the link to the local papers artical if anyone is interested:
http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2009/03/14/local_news/01news.txt


----------



## slowp

*tedd* said:


> I live in the area of the "big bust." I'm getting a big charge out of all the agencies shaking hands with themselves over a guy trying to make a living by pulling a few deadheads out of the Hoquiam river. Pretty soon, we will need a permit and punch card just to fart.
> 
> Here is the link to the local papers artical if anyone is interested:
> http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2009/03/14/local_news/01news.txt



Nope. For that you need carbon credits!:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## *tedd*

Yes, I shouldn't have even brought it up! Now every idiot it the Soviet Socialist Republic of Washington will be figuring a way to measure a carbon fart print.


----------



## dingeryote

Grande Dog said:


> Howdy,
> Couple of things surprised me in this thread. I really can't begin to understand that with all the time, and money involved that no one checked for permits. I don't want this to be another east vs. west thing but, when you look at the posts in this thread, it seems pretty divided. The east seems to be "outraged" and west is like "should have known better". Is there really this big of difference between the environmental rules, and or the knowledge of them, or their enforcement from east to west. The whole reason these situations became litigious is because the fines (just like other industries) didn't have any teeth. There was nothing to stop folks from doing whatever they wanted, pay the fines, and still smell like a rose. THP's and EIR's are the rules and I don't know anybody who skirts them these days. According to his resume, Aquaman's family has been in the business for generations. He should have been well aware that there are rules, if not the rules themselves. As far as the logs being marked. When they were cut, they probably realized that someday they'ld have to pay to clean up what Aquaman's doing for free.
> Regards
> Gregg



Gregg,

You guys out west seem more accepting of permits and regs on things we hold as beyond govt. reach, and no doubt because of the larger amount of Federal land out there, and more attention from the left cost environazi's.

At a certain point I can see where a permit would be insulative as lawfull consent to perform approved activites, in order to keep the tree hugging hippies protesting at city hall instead of the job site.

In all fairness to the State, I can see where they would want to apply some political presssure publicly on "Aqua logging",after doofus stated that he sells logs for a gazillion dollars then shows on TV how even a befuddled dipstick can do it.

Y'all have some ridiculously pristine waterways out there, and 20,000 bubba's with winches mounted on thier Bass boats looking all the world like a Redneck Yukon Gold rush ,would ruin those rivers.

Either way, It IS odd that nobody simply checked on a permit, pulled one, and went on. If the guy did any background on other Log salvage businesses, he would no doubt have found/seen that in most places, some sort of regulation is in place.

The States timing ultimately sucks, and smacks of typical harrassment after the fact however.
Just fine the guy a bit, slap his hand and move on like they do with big business that often commit more eggregious "Oversights".

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


----------



## woodchux

Jacob J. said:


> This guy has to be intelligent and experienced enough to know the regs.



Are you kidding!? Aqualogger is the biggest idiot ive seen in years!


----------



## windthrown

Jacob J. said:


> That was a part of my point- The Discovery channel is filming "professional" loggers. Come on now, people in the business know better.



I am with you on that one. "Professional" loggers... being filmed illegally poaching logs in the state of Washington. And the film will be used as evidence against them in court. I have to question the ethics of the studio and methods of the logging companies being filmed, and the results shown on the TV show. OSHA has stepped in, or showed up after seeing the show on TV. State authorities have showed up and stepped in after seeing the show as well. 

I have seen hundreds of falling and yarding operations and rarely have I seen anything the likes of what happens in just 10 minutes of that show. I think that show is about as real as if a bunch of elephants showed up and started hauling logs from a slicked off section down in Elkton. I imagine that is becasue of the fact that logging is in the tank in the PNW now. So they have to come up with creative BS to fill the show, and get an ignorant audience interested. Reality TV... made up by some writers sitting at a bar in Hollyweird.


----------



## Gologit

I didn't think this year's show would be worse than last year's. I was wrong.


----------



## Rftreeman

so who do you think will make money of these logs, some crooked DNR member?


----------



## *tedd*

As a timber faller in the PNW for over 27 years, I've tried to watch it but, I have been unable to watch those bumbling fools for more than 5 mins at a time so, I gave up on it.

"No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced".


----------



## windthrown

Rftreeman said:


> so who do you think will make money of these logs, some crooked DNR member?



Well, civil authorities in the west are not as corrupt as they are in the east (personal experience speaking). If the logs are sold, I would imagine that they will go to some needy cause, like the deer that are confiscated from poachers. There is enough press on this case that those logs will not go missing. I like the idea of using them for stream revetment myself. I have worked on several stream reconstruction projects in central west Oregon. They are good for salmon habitat.


----------



## *tedd*

Anyway.....different subject.
Can anyone solve a saw problem for me? I have an 044 with gas poring out of the carb (Back preasure!). I have put two pistons and cylinders on it (last one, brand new Stihl OEM). Runs great until I shut it off and after it sits for a while the case fills up with fuel until it pours out the carb. I've put at least three different carbs on it. If I wasn't bald already, I'd pull out the rest of my hair!


----------



## windthrown

Well, rather than hyjack this thread on a topic way out of scope, please start a new thread about your 044 under chainsaws.


----------



## Gologit

*tedd* said:


> Anyway.....different subject.
> Can anyone solve a saw problem for me? I have an 044 with gas poring out of the carb (Back preasure!). I have put two pistons and cylinders on it (last one, brand new Stihl OEM). Runs great until I shut it off and after it sits for a while the case fills up with fuel until it pours out the carb. I've put at least three different carbs on it. If I wasn't bald already, I'd pull out the rest of my hair!



Ask in the Chainsaw forum...lots of good info and advice there.


----------



## 2dogs

slowp said:


> Nope. For that you need carbon credits!:biggrinbounce2:



Eewww!


----------



## turnkey4099

Gologit said:


> I didn't think this year's show would be worse than last year's. I was wrong.



Totally agree. It went from rediculous last year to asinine this year. 

Harry K


----------



## Jkebxjunke

if you go to JM Brownings website.. he has a post about the AxMen show... He the discovery channel was the one that came up with the "green gold, dollars per load, load count" ect...


----------



## smokechase II

*Discovery Channel crews*

*"............I've talked to film crews from the Discovery channel before, when they would come onto the firelines during the making of "Into the Firestorm" and they truly were clueless. At least in that situation, the Forest Service (or whatever agency has the overhead team on that particular incident) assigns them a Liaison officer who keeps them out of trouble..............."*

=============

They were filming a fire thing here a few years ago.
Jumpers - shots, the usual.

There was a smaller fire on the Willamette NF that the local crews made an attempt to hike to then gave up. The Jumpers got the order too late that day so it was scheduled to be jumped the next morning. That provided an opportunity for the Discovery Channel crew to be hiked in overnight prior to the jump. (No need to wonder out loud about why the local fire fighters couldn't have hiked in if a film crew could have. That has been discussed thoroughly.)
A former jumper turned arborist who was an animal work ethic type hiked them in.
Man I love this part - one of the film guys couldn't walk for days afterwards. The hike in and out KILLED him.

I believe that was the last time they hiked in with Wayne. (In this case the liaison 'officer' was merciless.)
TeeHee.


----------



## stihlkicken

*trained.*

grande dog,I see what your saying.I wonder if twenty years ago those of us out west here would have been so understanding of whats going on with rules, regs, and such.I remember being outraged constantly.worry not east coast folks,"CHANGE" is heading your way.soon, you too will be "TRAINED".stay safe, dan.


----------



## slowp

The Seattle Times wrote that Aqua Man had asked for a permit prior to "logging" It was denied. Now, how smart is it to go ahead and break the law on TV? I guess it was for the 15 minutes of fame? TV does strange things to people. 

The article also said that the Aqua Logging company is based in Cle Elum, which is on the East side of the Cascades. Not in Hoquiam. Or Aberdeen. 
Or on the coast. 

I was mopping up on a fire. We were "mopshots". I looked up and saw there was a TV camera aimed at me. The People of the Clean Fire Shirts were filming. I switched the nozzle to straight stream and aimed at one of those super heated spots. Fine ash exploded out (just like I wanted) and coated everybody in the vicinity. That camera disappeared fast.


----------



## Jkebxjunke

slowp said:


> The Seattle Times wrote that Aqua Man had asked for a permit prior to "logging" It was denied. Now, how smart is it to go ahead and break the law on TV? I guess it was for the 15 minutes of fame? TV does strange things to people.
> 
> The article also said that the Aqua Logging company is based in Cle Elum, which is on the East side of the Cascades. Not in Hoquiam. Or Aberdeen.
> Or on the coast.
> 
> I was mopping up on a fire. We were "mopshots". I looked up and saw there was a TV camera aimed at me. The People of the Clean Fire Shirts were filming. I switched the nozzle to straight stream and aimed at one of those super heated spots. Fine ash exploded out (just like I wanted) and coated everybody in the vicinity. That camera disappeared fast.



hmmm
me thinks the tv show gots some 'splain to do...


----------



## Gologit

slowp said:


> The Seattle Times wrote that Aqua Man had asked for a permit prior to "logging" It was denied. Now, how smart is it to go ahead and break the law on TV? I guess it was for the 15 minutes of fame? TV does strange things to people.
> 
> The article also said that the Aqua Logging company is based in Cle Elum, which is on the East side of the Cascades. Not in Hoquiam. Or Aberdeen.
> Or on the coast.
> 
> I was mopping up on a fire. We were "mopshots". I looked up and saw there was a TV camera aimed at me. The People of the Clean Fire Shirts were filming. I switched the nozzle to straight stream and aimed at one of those super heated spots. Fine ash exploded out (just like I wanted) and coated everybody in the vicinity. That camera disappeared fast.


----------



## ghitch75

woodchux said:


> Are you kidding!? Aqualogger is the biggest idiot ive seen in years!




i agree 100%:agree2:


----------



## treeclimber101

*tedd* said:


> Yes, I shouldn't have even brought it up! Now every idiot it the Soviet Socialist Republic of Washington will be figuring a way to measure a carbon fart print.


 Yo man the fart tax was my idea, your stealing my material . If you start a fart tax you owe me copyright infringement tax and that fine is stiff .:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Jkebxjunke

treeclimber101 said:


> Yo man the fart tax was my idea, your stealing my material . If you start a fart tax you owe me copyright infringement tax and that fine is stiff .:hmm3grin2orange:



starting to sound like an old monty python sketch on taxing 'thingy'... you know... _'thingy'_


----------



## *tedd*

It sounds like material but, if the Obama admin can find a way to tax a fart, we better find a better diet.


----------



## treeclimber101

Jkebxjunke said:


> starting to sound like an old monty python sketch on taxing 'thingy'... you know... _'thingy'_



Yea i know but i'm to :censored: remember right now.


----------



## woodchux

I better lay off the chili mac... :fart: :jester:


----------



## *tedd*

Hey, go for all the chile mac you want, we all must pay out fair share of fart taxes. If we all eat chile for the next six weeks, maybe we can help pay off the stimulus package and reverse global warming at the sametime.
www.pacificsaws.com


----------



## Jtheo

windthrown said:


> I am with you on that one. "Professional" loggers... being filmed illegally poaching logs in the state of Washington. And the film will be used as evidence against them in court. I have to question the ethics of the studio and methods of the logging companies being filmed, and the results shown on the TV show. OSHA has stepped in, or showed up after seeing the show on TV. State authorities have showed up and stepped in after seeing the show as well.
> 
> I have seen hundreds of falling and yarding operations and rarely have I seen anything the likes of what happens in just 10 minutes of that show. I think that show is about as real as if a bunch of elephants showed up and started hauling logs from a slicked off section down in Elkton. I imagine that is becasue of the fact that logging is in the tank in the PNW now. So they have to come up with creative BS to fill the show, and get an ignorant audience interested. Reality TV... made up by some writers sitting at a bar in Hollyweird.



I agree. That's the same opinion I expressed to my wife about the program..:agree2:


----------



## Brmorgan

I totally agree with this show being staged, rigged, scripted, whatever you want to call it. It's no worse than the rest though. Ice Road Truckers is ridiculous, how much drama can there really be when you're only allowed to go a couple MPH over endless swaths of tundra? 

Every time a possible hazard is pointed out on camera, 10 minutes later in the show that exact situation comes to pass, no matter how unlikely or random it should be. The first time I really noticed this with Ax Men was when the widowmaker fell through the roof of the feller-buncher during the first season. I know it happens, but I know a LOT of guys who have logged countless hours in those machines without it happening, and what are the chances of getting it on film? As for the other stuff, well, _nobody_ does highline logging around here, so I can't speak for that. Everything is skidded out on cutblock roads, even on 50 - 60° terrain, and anything steeper/rougher is helicoptered. They do it up north a bit more though, I hear.

As for this S&S situation, I think the guy has it coming to him. How stupid could he (or barring that, the producers) be to not ensure he has a proper license to conduct his business ON CAMERA? It would be one thing for the average Joe to drag a log home and make something out of it quietly, but to run it as a business on film? If he's milling logs and selling the lumber, whatever the end product may be, he should be obliged to pay stumpage fees just like every other mill does. Just because he's pulling them out of the water instead of cutting them down doesn't change anything. I could get away with milling the occasional firewood tree for lumber for personal use, but if I tried to sell the lumber as a business I would need to prove where the money, and by extension, the wood came from and it would have to be legit. 

Personally, I don't think that things found on public land should be sold or processed for a profit without some remuneration TO the public in return for the profit. If the public is losing an asset, why not be compensated a percentage for it? If a private shareholder invests an asset which results in profit, is he not entitled to a share of that profit? If a company discovers a diamond deposit they estimate is worth billions, but they only have to pay a few million for the mineral leases and permits for the properties, why is that unfair? Everything out there can't just be free for the taking, or else only those with the most money or biggest guns will always win, and equal opportunity goes out the window.


----------



## boltonranger

*But that's the point - It's not an asset*



> Personally, I don't think that things found on public land should be sold or processed for a profit without some remuneration TO the public in return for the profit. If the public is losing an asset, why not be compensated a percentage for it? If a private shareholder invests an asset which results in profit, is he not entitled to a share of that profit?



This is a discussion with a broad scope.
Consider however - a deadhead in a river.
It is a considerable liability to marine navigation.
A hazard. If one of these logs was on the roadway; it would be cut and removed. But not in the river. Don't tell me it's an ecosystem thing; birds and bugs would get ahold of it on land, and use it for their purposes in the same way that water creatures use it for theirs. That's a lazy argument at best.

It's not an asset in any respect. If a boat hits it and capsizes or sinks; there is cost far greater than a lousy 10k.
It risks loss of life; property damage to the boat owner. Salvage cost; rescue and fire personnel cost, yes environmental cost (oil/gas) in the river.

The state I'm in has a slick law. The deer strike law. I hit a deer with my pickup some time ago. Called the cops to file a report at the scene.
Officer tells me that the law is written such that: "In the seconds preceding my vehicle striking the animal ownership of the deer was transferred from the state to me; in effect causing me to strike my own animal with my own vehicle. Thus the state cannot be liable for damages" End quote.
In a fairer world; the Aqua guy could send the State an invoice. But this isn't a fair world. This is a state run world. 

As a boater (and a tax-payer) this argument holds no "water" pardon the pun.
-br


----------



## tbuggle

suppose i don't boat, but i DO fish. I prefer the log to stay where it is.
Every natural resource has many user groups. We can't just "dumb it down"
to the LCD.

I am a rockclimber, but i certainly don't expect or WANT the gov. out there
erradicating every subjective danger that exists. Nor should any one else.
We are not talking about highway safety here.


----------



## spencerhenry

i would doubt that river is a navigable river, but if it is, getting rid of deadheads is good. except that how do we know that when he pulls a logs up out of the bottom that he doesnt create another deadhead. what about fish habitat? if that is a river that salmon use, what potential problems is he creating for them? or how about that big log he got, he pulls it up, and then cant take it home because his junk machinery broke down, now it is potentially a more severe hazard than before. we have all seen his machines, everything the guys owns is junk, when he blew out the hydraulic oil filter, did any oil get in the water? i would think if he is making a commercial operation out of this, that he would have to be held to pretty high standards to make sure his P.O.S. boat doesnt contaminate the river when it sinks.


----------



## boltonranger

*I strongly disagree. (And yet, I too hate seatbelt laws.)*



tbuggle said:


> suppose i don't boat, but i DO fish. I prefer the log to stay where it is.
> Every natural resource has many user groups. We can't just "dumb it down"
> to the LCD.
> 
> I am a rockclimber, but i certainly don't expect or WANT the gov. out there
> erradicating every subjective danger that exists. Nor should any one else.
> We are not talking about highway safety here.



You realize we're talking about a deadhead log that submerges during high tide?

We're talking about about marine safety. Which is *indeed* equal to highway safety. 
More crucial in fact. So much so that underwater charts are generated by the NOAA to avoid underwater hazards. 
Ever see a lighted buoy? A no wake marker? A spar above a shoal?
That silly government..
There is nothing "dumbed down" about nav. markers, hazard removal, or the people whose lives depend on them.

You don't expect the government to eradicate marine hazards because you have no experience on the water as working crew or captain.

_"We are not talking about highway safety here?"_

No offense TB, but that comment is worth re-thinking.

Cheers.

-br


----------



## Metals406

I've removed blown over trees from county and state roads... Guess I should get a hefty fine. :monkey:


----------



## boltonranger

*A thought.*



spencerhenry said:


> i would doubt that river is a navigable river, but if it is, getting rid of deadheads is good. except that how do we know that when he pulls a logs up out of the bottom that he doesnt create another deadhead. what about fish habitat? if that is a river that salmon use, what potential problems is he creating for them? or how about that big log he got, he pulls it up, and then cant take it home because his junk machinery broke down, now it is potentially a more severe hazard than before. we have all seen his machines, everything the guys owns is junk, when he blew out the hydraulic oil filter, did any oil get in the water? i would think if he is making a commercial operation out of this, that he would have to be held to pretty high standards to make sure his P.O.S. boat doesnt contaminate the river when it sinks.



I think your confusing the term "navigable" with "commercial".
It _is_ navigable because you can navigate it with a vessel.

The high standards you mention already exist for marine vessels based on their length.
-br


----------



## Jacob J.

Metals406 said:


> I've removed blown over trees from county and state roads... Guess I should get a hefty fine. :monkey:



Removing blown down trees from a road right-of-way is far different from taking logs out of a riverbed. 

Was this work done in an area of the river that's subject to tide influence? The descriptions I've read indicate that this was quite a ways inland.


----------



## Brmorgan

boltonranger said:


> This is a discussion with a broad scope.
> Consider however - a deadhead in a river.
> It is a considerable liability to marine navigation.
> A hazard. If one of these logs was on the roadway; it would be cut and removed. But not in the river. Don't tell me it's an ecosystem thing; birds and bugs would get ahold of it on land, and use it for their purposes in the same way that water creatures use it for theirs. That's a lazy argument at best.
> 
> It's not an asset in any respect. If a boat hits it and capsizes or sinks; there is cost far greater than a lousy 10k.
> It risks loss of life; property damage to the boat owner. Salvage cost; rescue and fire personnel cost, yes environmental cost (oil/gas) in the river.
> 
> The state I'm in has a slick law. The deer strike law. I hit a deer with my pickup some time ago. Called the cops to file a report at the scene.
> Officer tells me that the law is written such that: "In the seconds preceding my vehicle striking the animal ownership of the deer was transferred from the state to me; in effect causing me to strike my own animal with my own vehicle. Thus the state cannot be liable for damages" End quote.
> In a fairer world; the Aqua guy could send the State an invoice. But this isn't a fair world. This is a state run world.
> 
> As a boater (and a tax-payer) this argument holds no "water" pardon the pun.
> -br



I see your argument and agree with the hazard of deadheads, and also with the benefit of somebody removing them for free. I have no problem with somebody removing one and using it for their own purposes. It's just that if they decide to sell the logs and/or whatever they might create from them, they should have to pay the same stumpage fees as a logging operation or mill that's cutting live trees. It just keeps the playing field a bit more level. Up here the government will give out "small-scale salvage" harvesting permits of up to 50 cubic meters at a time. Two years ago I looked into getting one and the rate at the time was $12.50/cube. Might not sound cheap until you consider that one cubic meter is equivalent to a 6"X6" beam about 100 feet long.

As for the deer, around here if you tell the insurance company that YOU hit the deer, it's deemed your fault and will count against your personal insurance. But if you word it that the DEER hit you, it can go against your comprehensive insurance the same as a hit-and-run - all you have to pay is your deductible and your rates won't go up. It's retarded, just a matter of semantics. Although with the only incident I've had with a deer, the deer actually DID hit me - ran right into the side of the front fender and proceeded to spin and wreck every quarter-panel down the side of my car. Never even saw it until it was over.


----------



## spencerhenry

i am not confusing anything. maybe there is a technicality in the definition of navigable, but the idea is that i doubt this river is used as a shipping route. as far as standards go for boats, it is my suspicion that a boat used for recreational purposes has different standards put upon it than a boat used for commercial purposes. say for example equipment and supplies to contain a hydraulic oil leak. or how about lighting and warning devices for when towing or winching a log?


----------



## Taxmantoo

spencerhenry said:


> i am not confusing anything. maybe there is a technicality in the definition of navigable,



My definition of a navigable stretch of river is one that your canoe doesn't get stuck on.


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## tomtrees58

ok go to the Web site now they list { donations for defense fund } :jawdrop: tom trees


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## Jacob J.

tomtrees58 said:


> ok go to the Web site now they list { donations for defense fund } :jawdrop: tom trees



That's pretty crass and arrogant.


----------



## boltonranger

*I'll say it another way.*



spencerhenry said:


> i am not confusing anything. maybe there is a technicality in the definition of navigable, but the idea is that i doubt this river is used as a shipping route. as far as standards go for boats, it is my suspicion that a boat used for recreational purposes has different standards put upon it than a boat used for commercial purposes. say for example equipment and supplies to contain a hydraulic oil leak. or how about lighting and warning devices for when towing or winching a log?



They do not. Neither vessel can discharge oil, fuel, or any other foreign material into water. As far as vehicles towing they must display certain marker lights in their rigging. You are complicating things with your not understanding nautical parameters. (Which is understandable, I'm largely unfamiliar with tree climbing with rigging, but learning ) There are no "recreational" rivers and "commercial shipping rivers"

There are shipping lanes in bodies of water and there are channels for larger draft vessels. The "equipment and supplies" to contain a hydraulic oil leak, is more commonly known as the bilge; which no vessel may discharge raw.
-br


----------



## windthrown

Metals406 said:


> I've removed blown over trees from county and state roads... Guess I should get a hefty fine. :monkey:



It might in some areas. When I was up on Highway 26 out by the coast just after it opened after the Hurricane last year, they had signs up along the road: NO SALVAGING OF LOGS OR FIREWOOD! They were posted by Weyerhaeuser... nobody was gonna mess with their trees! Even shoved into piles as big as a house.

Also from doing firewood scrounging of slash piles in private timber company clear cut areas, even along roads, it is a HEAFTY FINE to cut wood without a permit or permission, at least in the state of Oregon. I have letters from 3 companies, Roseburg, Lone Rock and Wooley giving us permission to do firewood salvaging of slash piles on their property. I only got them becasue we had land that was surrounded by those three logging companies, and they usually (but not always as we found out) give permission to people with adjacent property. One sheriff wanted me to have a BLM permit as well, but there was no open BLM areas open at that time up there (though I know of about a half dozen BLM places for firewood cutting in the coast range). I had the county property boundary map with me as well, just in case they wanted to break my balls for cutting firewood. It was not that hard to do inquiries and get the right paperwork in order. It helped that my ex was on the local wathershed counsil, and she ahd the up to date maps and knew 2 of the timber company managers in that area.


----------



## windthrown

spencerhenry said:


> i am not confusing anything. maybe there is a technicality in the definition of navigable, but the idea is that i doubt this river is used as a shipping route. as far as standards go for boats, it is my suspicion that a boat used for recreational purposes has different standards put upon it than a boat used for commercial purposes. say for example equipment and supplies to contain a hydraulic oil leak. or how about lighting and warning devices for when towing or winching a log?



Just about every river here that flows into the Puget Sound, Columbia River or Pacific Ocean is navigable in the sence that they have floated logs and barges down them for over 100 years. When I was a kid there were millions of logs in tied up in rafts along the Wilamette, Columbia, and Puget Sound. They were as common as the old sawdust burner mill domes. Like RR rights of way, river rights of way go back to the dawn of time, which here in the west is about 1880. Many of those rivers had and still have pilings put in place specifically to keep barges and rafts from hitting the shallows and shoreline. So you might think that the logs are a hazard, or there for the taking, but that is not the case in many instances in the PNW. And many rivers here are navigable quite a ways inland.


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## Humptulips

windthrown said:


> Just about every river here that flows into the Puget Sound, Columbia River or Pacific Ocean is navigable in the sence that they have floated logs and barges down them for over 100 years. When I was a kid there were millions of logs in tied up in rafts along the Wilamette, Columbia, and Puget Sound. They were as common as the old sawdust burner mill domes. Like RR rights of way, river rights of way go back to the dawn of time, which here in the west is about 1880. Many of those rivers had and still have pilings put in place specifically to keep barges and rafts from hitting the shallows and shoreline. So you might think that the logs are a hazard, or there for the taking, but that is not the case in many instances in the PNW. And many rivers here are navigable quite a ways inland.



That is the case with the Hoquiam where this took place. It is tidewater and when the tide is out there is very little water where S&S was getting these logs but when the tide is in there is enough water for a small tug to work which used to happen but not anymore. Technically navigable so the bridges have to open. There is a boat yard downstream from where they were working but where they were at nothing except mabe a recreational fisherman. Low tide you could probably wade it if it wasn't for the mud.

Only defense I see for these guys is they used to have a log patrol to corral logs that slipped out of the raft and before that they allowed salvage of logs that got away. Salvage not theft, these logs belonged to someone and you only got a percentage for salvage.

Doubt if that defense will work though. They might try diminished mental capacity. I think that might work.


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## Brmorgan

Humptulips said:


> Only defense I see for these guys is they used to have a log patrol to corral logs that slipped out of the raft and before that they allowed salvage of logs that got away. Salvage not theft, these logs belonged to someone and you only got a percentage for salvage.
> 
> Doubt if that defense will work though. *They might try diminished mental capacity. I think that might work.*



+1! Those guys are one of the best comedy teams I've seen lately.


----------



## windthrown

Humptulips said:


> Only defense I see for these guys is they used to have a log patrol to corral logs that slipped out of the raft and before that they allowed salvage of logs that got away. Salvage not theft, these logs belonged to someone and you only got a percentage for salvage.



Yah, when I was a kid on my dad's boat out on the Willamette and Columbia, we called them dead heads. Loose logs from rafts. Had to watch out for those. Funny, I cannot recall when the last time I saw a log raft on any of the rivers or the sound. Probably the 1980s? I know they are along Steilacoom in the late 1970s when I did a lot of scuba diving on the old Narrows bridge.


----------



## slowp

windthrown said:


> Yah, when I was a kid on my dad's boat out on the Willamette and Columbia, we called them dead heads. Loose logs from rafts. Had to watch out for those. Funny, I cannot recall when the last time I saw a log raft on any of the rivers or the sound. Probably the 1980s? I know they are along Steilacoom in the late 1970s when I did a lot of scuba diving on the old Narrows bridge.




I saw a tug pushing logs on the Siuslaw 6 years ago. But there was a mill on the river, and they had logs in the river. 

I think most people know that the rivers will have deadheads so you really shouldn't go flying down or up them at certain tide levels. I kayaked a lot in the Alsea River and bay, it was amazing how many pilings were in that river.
There were also a lot of deadheads and sometimes, logs floating that were hard to see when the water was rough and the kayak low.


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## Jkebxjunke

i wonder.... the show shows the location where he is... they make it like he is based right there... now if you look up his phone # and the town ... it is quite a ways away... a lot of stuff is not adding up.....


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## Mike Van

Years ago I read if you have a stream that will float a 2x4 after a rain storm, the Army Corp of Engineers can call it a "navigable waterway" should they choose to.


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## windthrown

Well, the History Channel Forum is tearing Aqua Logger Jimmy up but good. About as bad as over here. They are also tearing him apart on the scuba forums. The salvage divers are having a field day of it. Just about everywhere they are laughing at him. Lots of bad press. So I suppose the show's TV ratings will go through the roof, and they will just want more of it. 

The S&S web site has a "Donations for Defense Fund" up in the site now. I wonder if the state has a 'Donations for the Prosecution' site as well? This could get interesting. _Live coverage from the state courthouse in Olympia, Washington._ Hey, you can also get your Aqua Logging T-shirts and hats on their web site! Show your support!


----------



## Mike Van

I can see the season ending on the courthouse steps - Guilty or innocent? Wait 'till next season to find out! This could be as big as "Who shot J.R.?"


----------



## windthrown

Or the OJ Simpson trials...


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## Jkebxjunke

windthrown said:


> Or the OJ Simpson trials...



what with the low speed barge chase?


----------



## ghitch75

Jkebxjunke said:


> what with the low speed barge chase?



LOL...:agree2:


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## *tedd*

Here's one for ya! (true story...around 1948). My dad used to ski (in slow motion) up and down the Hoquiam river bare-assed naked behide the tug boats that pulled the log rafts up and down the river when he was a kid. Him and his borther and freinds would hop a log and go for miles....aqua hoodlums I guess.


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## Jkebxjunke

besides .. how do you poach a log?


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## windthrown

Jkebxjunke said:


> besides .. how do you poach a log?



Simmer it for 40 years in cold water...


----------



## Dalmatian90

> Simmer it for 40 years in cold water...



That made my afternoon  Gave you a rep point for that one.


----------



## AOD

Mike Van said:


> I can see the season ending on the courthouse steps - Guilty or innocent? Wait 'till next season to find out! This could be as big as "Who shot J.R.?"



Who is/was JR?


----------



## woodchux

You must be a young pup...


----------



## Vangellis

windthrown said:


> Or the OJ Simpson trials...




If the flipper don't fit, you can't commit.





Kevin


----------



## AOD

woodchux said:


> You must be a young pup...



Ha, I remember the last couple seasons Dallas was on TV in the late 80's, but don't remember that far back. First TV event I remembered was the Challenger explosion.


----------



## JCBearss

AKDoug said:


> It doesn't surprise me. Just wait until the Coast Guard shows up to inspect that barge.



Single funniest thing I have read on the net. I knew a charter boat Captain who would cuss like that LMAO. Have to admitt those are some nice logs he pulls out just needs a better system.


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## Davej_07

Here in Wisconsin the DNR claims jurisdiction over anything that is "embedded" in the river/lake bottom. This is superceded by right of ownership, such as your boat sank and you paid a friend to retrieve it. This goes for shipwrecks, logs, etc. 

Lets take this a step back. I contacted our county parks department to see if I could get a permit to remove some dead-fall trees from Grant park in Milwaukee. We walk our dogs there alot in summer and alot of trees have fallen across paths, blocked up streams and generally made the place an eyesore. The response was that they could not permit any citizens to remove wood from the parks. Ok, I understand they dont want Tom, ####, or Harry running a chainsaw in a public park. I explained that the area in question would benefit from a proper cleanup like that and I was told that their 'trained forestery workers' would have to do any of the necessary work. Trained forestry workers my ass! Long story short nothign was done and the situation remains the same. All I wanted to do was clean the park and get a little free wood. Beauracracy at its best.....


Dave


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## boltonranger

*Post before mine reminds me.*

Have been told by State Police (in a friendly way) that me bucking roadside logs after the State fallers have come through is not good.

He just said "the highway crew will get those." No problem I say... I pack my stuff and go. (Mind you there was a budget shortfall, so I thought If I and others collected the wood, The highway fellows and gals could devote themselves to other projects; money being scarce and all)

Anyway, what happens to all that lovely wood they put in the orange trucks in your state? 
Mine I'm not even sure.

_I'm talking about some nice 24" or bigger hardwood too!_
-br


----------



## capetrees

If these guys were really busted for doing what they are doing on the show, why are they still showing them? If it's a crime to do what they are doing, why show it? 

Entertainment I know and ratings but it's illegal. Why not have a segment of a hunting show on poaching? Same thing, no?


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## windthrown

capetrees said:


> If these guys were really busted for doing what they are doing on the show, why are they still showing them? If it's a crime to do what they are doing, why show it?
> 
> Entertainment I know and ratings but it's illegal. Why not have a segment of a hunting show on poaching? Same thing, no?



Ignorance. They (the moron stump divers and TV network) were obvioulsy oblivious to the laws in the state when they shot it and when they aired it. The cops saw the show on TV and went after them for doing it. 

It will be interesting if they continue to follow the aqua loggers, or if they have to edit them out. Seemingly they do not have much else to show, after the heli loggers back out of the program (and why they filled in with these overrated mud diving champions).


----------



## Jkebxjunke

windthrown said:


> Ignorance. They (the moron stump divers and TV network) were obvioulsy oblivious to the laws in the state when they shot it and when they aired it. The cops saw the show on TV and went after them for doing it.
> 
> It will be interesting if they continue to follow the aqua loggers, or if they have to edit them out. Seemingly they do not have much else to show, after the heli loggers back out of the program (and why they filled in with these overrated mud diving champions).



i highly doubt the tv show was ignorant to the laws... they have more lawyers than we all could hope to afford. I am sure they checked things 9 ways to sunday... and if they went ahead with it then S&S may have a case... just my 2 cents


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## thejdman04

Wouldnt it have been MUCH simpler when the log VERY first started going into the side of the bank to put a choker on the very end of the log and use the dozer blade to lift the log up so it did no dig into the side of the bank? Even if you had to put a couple logs alog the shore and drive the cat out onto the logs to get you the extra lift. You could have put the logs along the shore parallell to the shore to lift the front of the  cat up even a little higher drop the blade, wrapa rope or choker around the log and blade lift the bade and it should have come out.


----------



## ghitch75

thejdman04 said:


> Wouldnt it have been MUCH simpler when the log VERY first started going into the side of the bank to put a choker on the very end of the log and use the dozer blade to lift the log up so it did no dig into the side of the bank? Even if you had to put a couple logs alog the shore and drive the cat out onto the logs to get you the extra lift. You could have put the logs along the shore parallell to the shore to lift the front of the cat up even a little higher drop the blade, wrapa rope or choker around the log and blade lift the bade and it should have come out.



:agree2:....thats what i told the wife when watchin' the show...he's not rowin' with both oars in the water!!!!:greenchainsaw:


----------



## Jkebxjunke

ghitch75 said:


> :agree2:....thats what i told the wife when watchin' the show...he's not rowin' with both oars in the water!!!!:greenchainsaw:



hell he left both oars back in town... what a comedy it was turning out to be... I think his boy was about to let him know how he feels...


----------



## GASoline71

That toolshed is not a "logger" or should not even be lumped in with the other crews... "S&S" is not a "Timber Company" either... he doesn't deserve that title.

He is just a 'tard scratchin' out a livin' doin' dirty work. I actually watched 3 episodes last night (first time). If I was his kid I would have layed him out... that is the most arrogant, egotistical, piece of sh1t I've seen on tv.

For some of you guys that think "Dewayne" is an idiot... you'd be suprised at how many guys are up in the woods just like him. Dude is a good timber faller... prolly has a good work ethic as far as bustin' his ass. But is just a drunk, oldschooler that won't change his ways. Guys butt heads all the time on the landing... and trust me... "paybacks" are usually not fun. 

I worked side by side with a guy that could be his twin figgin' brother for 3 years... what a bastid... but was one hell of a logger.  That bein' said... I ain't sayin' all older experienced loggers are drunks. Just wanted to get that straight... but it's aparent that he like his bottle... 

I too notced the Westside attitude is way different that the Eastside... Eastside guys need to remember that the salmon is king out here, and all rivers and things in those river are managed around the salmon runs. Boats, and people are secondary to the fish. Washington State has "fees" and "permits" and "licenses" for EVERYTHING! Been that way for years... so no way that dude should have been pullin' logs out of the Hoquaim unless he did his homework. Like was said earlier, apparently he has been doin' it for years, so should have known better.

Or he's been harvesting logs illegally for years, and is just now getting caught. One thing is for sure... if you're gonna be in the spotlight... you better have your ducks in a row... there will always be someone there to tattle on ya...

Gary


----------



## 2dogs

GASoline71 said:


> That toolshed is not a "logger" or should not even be lumped in with the other crews... "S&S" is not a "Timber Company" either... he doesn't deserve that title.
> 
> He is just a 'tard scratchin' out a livin' doin' dirty work. I actually watched 3 episodes last night (first time). If I was his kid I would have layed him out... that is the most arrogant, egotistical, piece of sh1t I've seen on tv.
> 
> For some of you guys that think "Dewayne" is an idiot... you'd be suprised at how many guys are up in the woods just like him. Dude is a good timber faller... prolly has a good work ethic as far as bustin' his ass. But is just a drunk, oldschooler that won't change his ways. Guys butt heads all the time on the landing... and trust me... "paybacks" are usually not fun.
> 
> I worked side by side with a guy that could be his twin figgin' brother for 3 years... what a bastid... but was one hell of a logger.  That bein' said... I ain't sayin' all older experienced loggers are drunks. Just wanted to get that straight... but it's aparent that he like his bottle...
> 
> I too notced the Westside attitude is way different that the Eastside... Eastside guys need to remember that the salmon is king out here, and all rivers and things in those river are managed around the salmon runs. Boats, and people are secondary to the fish. Washington State has "fees" and "permits" and "licenses" for EVERYTHING! Been that way for years... so no way that dude should have been pullin' logs out of the Hoquaim unless he did his homework. Like was said earlier, apparently he has been doin' it for years, so should have known better.
> 
> Or he's been harvesting logs illegally for years, and is just now getting caught. One thing is for sure... if you're gonna be in the spotlight... you better have your ducks in a row... there will always be someone there to tattle on ya...
> 
> Gary



Well siad.


----------



## windthrown

Jkebxjunke said:


> i highly doubt the tv show was ignorant to the laws... they have more lawyers than we all could hope to afford. I am sure they checked things 9 ways to sunday... and if they went ahead with it then S&S may have a case... just my 2 cents



I seriously doubt that they checked anything. I worked in Hollywood on a lot of commercials and rock videos. The only background checking was going out with a camera and getting shots. No one called legal for anything until after the fact. A small cable TV network whose biggest show is AxMen is nothing like a big TV network like CBS. They probably work like independants. Small, low budget and seat of the pants stuff, about like the goons pulling logs out of the drink.

Anyway, all the legal BS will only give them more press. Does not matter if it is positive or negative, ratings will climb. All the forums are talking about it, so more people will watch. There is also a lot of bad press from the tree huggers, claiming that the show shows us brutes destroying natural resources. Then Levi goes and beats some guy up, and there is more negative press about loggers and AxMen. So even more people will watch the show as a result.


----------



## windthrown

GASoline71 said:


> That toolshed is not a "logger" or should not even be lumped in with the other crews... "S&S" is not a "Timber Company" either... he doesn't deserve that title.
> 
> Gary



They do not deserve the "diving" title either. Sad to see that these Aqua Goons have PADI dive certification on their web site. I was trained to dive by an ex Navy Seal on Swan Island. I had to pass the PADI dive instructor test just to get my dive card from him. Most salvage divers are disgusted with that show. They are just begging to get themselves killed.


----------



## Taxmantoo

windthrown said:


> I seriously doubt that they checked anything.



I've got to agree with you on that. Illegal stuff happens on TV all the time. 
It happens on the big networks too, like the time ABC did a "news" story on how GM pickups blow up in crashes, and put a bomb on the gas tank to make sure their demonstration would show a truck blowing up. 

And what about all the criminal acts committed by the badge toters on Fox's "Cops"? I remember one time, it was a straightforward and uneventful arrest, cops and perp were totally peaceful, even polite, until the perp's approximately eight year old kid rode by on his bike and said something childish to the cops. Two of those douchebags took off running and put a smackdown on that little punk kid, tackled him off his bike and facedown into the concrete. Yeah, that'll teach him respect for "authority".


----------



## capetrees

GASoline71 said:


> I too notced the Westside attitude is way different that the Eastside... Eastside guys need to remember that the salmon is king out here, and all rivers and things in those river are managed around the salmon runs. Boats, and people are secondary to the fish. Washington State has "fees" and "permits" and "licenses" for EVERYTHING! Been that way for years... so no way that dude should have been pullin' logs out of the Hoquaim unless he did his homework. Like was said earlier, apparently he has been doin' it for years, so should have known better.



I had the same question about what he was doing along the river. Out here, you can't even go within 200' of a river with any equipment like a bulldozer and you certainly can't go disrupting the embankment along the river for any reason without miles and miles of requests and permits. For a salmon stock to be in that river would mean everything that dumps into it, and that means along the river sides too, are protected so the salmon are protected. Illegal logging is probably this guys initial offense.


----------



## SirElliott

*Washington State timber salvage case*

I have watched the show and found it interesting. This year the show adds S&S Aqua Logging and the guy says that he’s the first to do it. He also says that the logs are worth $10,000. 

I’m fairly new to Washington State and I live near a river that was used for logging. There are logs under water. I have a boat and I Scuba dive. I have a friend with a dozzer and an excavator and the trucks necessary to move them around. Now I’m not a logger but I have done a fair amount of rigging over the years and I think I can figure out a way to do this that’s probably a lot safer than what I’m seeing on TV.

So why don’t I just get my butt down to the river and get some of that free lumber before everybody and his or her brother figures out that there is BIG money to be made? 

A quick Google search for the words “Washington log salvage” brings back 670,000 results in just 0.28 seconds. Right there on the first page of results is my answer:
http://www.tomchambers.com/inc/opinions/Tortorelli.txt 

It seems that this isn’t a new idea. It’s been done in Washington State before. Someone tried to take logs from waterways and they got busted big time. They were prosecuted and found guilty. The conviction was appealed to a higher court and the higher court affirmed the conviction. 

This case covers everything that S&S Aqua Logging was doing and then some. A quick reading of the case reveals that:

_“When the United States was constituted, the Constitution reserved to the original states the shores and beds of navigable waters within their respective boundaries.” and “Under the equal footing doctrine, states subsequently admitted to the Union obtained "the same rights, sovereignty and jurisdiction . . . as the original States possess within their respective borders.”_

If it’s in a navigable waterway it belongs to the state. If it is a cut log that is left from an older logging operation then:

_“Once the trees have been cut into logs, it is not so clear that they are natural resources as meant by the statute because cut logs are not "supplied by nature." However, there is a separate basis for state ownership of stray logs, the marks and brands statute, which provides: "Unbranded or unmarked stray logs or forest products become the property of the state when recovered." RCW 76.36.020. _

I wish Jimmy Smith had done a little more research before he put himself in this position. Other states have put together programs to permit salvaging underwater timber. Canada seems to have a well-defined system to get a permit for underwater log salvage. http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/oceans-hab...-moderniser/epmp-pmpe/nl/pdf/logsalvage_e.pdf 

I guess I won’t be getting my Scuba tanks out. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.


----------



## boltonranger

*Excellent Post...*



> “Once the trees have been cut into logs, it is not so clear that they are natural resources as meant by the statute because cut logs are not "supplied by nature." However, there is a separate basis for state ownership of stray logs, the marks and brands statute, which provides: "Unbranded or unmarked stray logs or forest products *become* the property of the state *when recovered*." RCW 76.36.020.



That clears up alot.
Notice the part of your quote in bold. That tells me that if I hit it with my boat; the log doesn't belong to the state. ie. they're not liable.
But notice how they will be waiting hat in hand when it's recovered.

Great Post.
-br

_btw- SirElliott deserves credit for the above quote. _
Sorry for the confusion Elliott - didn't mean to steal your thunder!


----------



## GASoline71

Even the little snowmelt and rain runoff "streams and creeks" have to be protected. You can be on a hillside 3,500 feet up, 15 miles away from a river, and that runoff creek is part of the "salmon ecosystem". Ain't no way there are fish in it, since it's only as wide at an axe head...and just as deep... but if it somehow connects to that river 15 miles away... you get my point. 

Gary


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## windthrown

Land and water rights in Oregon are pretty clear. You own the land, but not the water that falls on it or that flows through it. There are also irrigation rights, and well rights. We had to get permits for 3 ponds that were on our property. Even though they were there before the ex bought the place, a neighbor at war with us complained about them. So we got the permits. We had well rights for 1 acre of house land watering. No field or pasture irrigation rights. We got the well rights extended for watering the sheep. The FEDs even paid for expanding the well water system so that we would shut down the spring box. The spring box had been put in and paid for by some government program 30 years previous. We also had to have a way of diverting barn runoff to a setteling pond area and not directly into the creek. For that we used a burm water diverter system that had been built there about 1900 to feed a log floom to float logs from the rough mill there in Skelley to a mill that was out on highway 38 near Drain. 

We also leased land to the FEDs along the main creeks of the property. About 12 acres were put into CRP and CREP programs, to help the coho salmon habitat. We took the creek area out of pasture and fenced it all off, and planted several thousand trees in there to support the salmon habitat. We also felled some big oaks and ash trees in there to add to the creek habitat. Also will help in flood control, and errosion control. That was one of the last hurdles the fish had before reaching the gravel bars that were on BLM land upsream from us. All of this is in Oregon though, and not Washington. Cutting laws, land use and development laws and water rights are all different between the two states.


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## slinger

+1 

Since some salmon species are on the ESA threatened list S&S probably will have to deal with the federalies as well as the state


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