# Barber chair!



## turnkey4099 (Feb 21, 2012)

Best clip of a barber chair happening I have ever seen. Sure makes a convert to 'bore cutting'. The URL is copied from the embedded clip. I hope someone can sort it out. From what little I can make out it seems to be repeated twice. I got it from the tractorbynet forum.


Falling a tree gone wrong (Barber chair) - YouTube

That is for sure worth seeing and the guy returns right to it. It would have taken me awhile to just clean my pants out.

Harry K


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## TreePointer (Feb 21, 2012)

We don't have them here in the East, but I wonder if it was one of those alder trees that's known for its barber chairs. It certainly looked dead-ish.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 21, 2012)

Is this common in trees that aren't leaning heavily?


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## dingeryote (Feb 21, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Is this common in trees that aren't leaning heavily?



Straight grained trees that are weighted on the side of the face, too deep of a face, storm damage, unseen hollows on the side of the face, unintentional dutchman. They don't have to be heavy leaners.

Red Oak, and Sassafrass can be bad for chairing in thier own right, lean or not, if a guy dinks around on the back cut after going too deep on the face.

The guy in the Vid made a waay too deep face, and then dithered on the back cut for whatever reason. 
I don't think a bore cut would have helped him one whit.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Walt41 (Feb 21, 2012)

Someone better teach that boy to commit to the back cut or stay in the truck.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 21, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Straight grained trees that are weighted on the side of the face, too deep of a face, storm damage, unseen hollows on the side of the face, unintentional dutchman. They don't have to be heavy leaners.
> 
> Red Oak, and Sassafrass can be bad for chairing in thier own right, lean or not, if a guy dinks around on the back cut after going too deep on the face.
> 
> ...



I would have to say I've never had one do that...:msp_confused: I've heard of it, but most of the stuff I cut is leaning so hard, there's no question as to what it's gonna do... Just figured I'd get some info from you straight tree guys... I may find one some day...
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 21, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Straight grained trees that are weighted on the side of the face, too deep of a face, storm damage, unseen hollows on the side of the face, unintentional dutchman. They don't have to be heavy leaners.
> 
> Red Oak, and Sassafrass can be bad for chairing in thier own right, lean or not, if a guy dinks around on the back cut after going too deep on the face.
> 
> ...



Agree on the 'dithering' Even after returning to he was just nibbling at it. At that point all that was needed was to "lay into it and drop it".

I have had 1 1/2 barber chairs in my long career. one ran about 15ft up the tgree and the top stayed attached. I was several steps away with my back turned when it happened so I didn't get to see it go. The other was a huge willow that showed signs of one. I managed to outcut it on one side but it left a tall 'spear' on the other side. 4'+ dbh with at 25" bar.

Harry K


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## Bushmans (Feb 21, 2012)

It looks as though a restudy is needed on my part for cutting depths and what not. Being a rookie at tree felling I don't really care too much for felling big trees just for this reason.:mad2:


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## darkbyrd (Feb 21, 2012)

:msp_scared:
oop:


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## dingeryote (Feb 21, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I would have to say I've never had one do that...:msp_confused: I've heard of it, but most of the stuff I cut is leaning so hard, there's no question as to what it's gonna do... Just figured I'd get some info from you straight tree guys... I may find one some day...
> :hmm3grin2orange:



LOL!!

The gangly ones in the windrows that are weighted all goofy, never chair. 
They don't have to, as they have vines to pull dead stuff down on the unwary guy with the saw.
It's evolution. I am sure of it.:hmm3grin2orange:

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## slowp (Feb 21, 2012)

TreePointer said:


> We don't have them here in the East, but I wonder if it was one of those alder trees that's known for its barber chairs. It certainly looked dead-ish.



Nope. Not an alder.


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## lumberjack48 (Feb 21, 2012)

When a tree starts to fall, for crimps sake finish sawing it down or you will have a lot of barber chairs. Never turn your back to a tree on till its on the ground. #1 rule when fell trees.


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## HorseFaller (Feb 21, 2012)

My bet is a fat Dutchmen and not enough throttle. Fast saws and sharp chains save lives. Sometimes it's needed to thin the heard though.


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## Iska3 (Feb 21, 2012)

In all my years, I've never had this happen to me but it sure gives a person food for thought. Great reminder... Thanks for posting the clip. 

Rep sent


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## Gologit (Feb 21, 2012)

That wasn't much of a leaner but sometimes it doesn't take much for a 'chair to happen...especially if you practically beg for it to happen. You guys that called the "dithering in the back cut" got it exactly right.

If the tree isn't big enough to bore, a Coos Bay Cut will help lessen the chances of a 'chair. Not eliminate, but lessen.


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## Dalmatian90 (Feb 21, 2012)

I've had one barber chair...before I even knew the term or what caused them! Red "Swamp" Maple.

After a while of sizing up what the hell to do next, decided to just walk away and let mother nature make it safe (took a couple years but the top finally fell down and I cut it up...top was well seasoned having hung up in the air for a few years!)

Question:

Was it just dithering with the saw when he started his back cut, or do you think going and dinking around with the camera and leaving the back of that tree in tension longer then necessary contributed???


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## sawinredneck (Feb 21, 2012)

This video has been around for years, many, myself included, have agreed it was staged to show the effects.
Yes, it was caused by "dithering" on the back cut, it had enough head lean to cause this effect and if you listen to the saw, it's almost as if he's trying to cause it to happen, just cutting little bits at a time waiting for it to happen.
It is a GREAT example of how, why, and how fast it can happen though, and worthy of watching and learning from!


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 21, 2012)

I was cutting a slightly leaning second growth chestnut oak a couple of years ago. Did a fairly shallow face cut and then started in on the back cut. What I didn't know was that the middle of the tree was hollow. Once I hit the hollow she popped and splintered. It left the front side of the tree about 20' up, the remaining top fell as planned, and the back side blew out against the other trunk of the tree. I saw it start to split and was able to get out of the way.


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## Walt41 (Feb 21, 2012)

If you can't slap those hollow trees down with an excavator, you can double strap above your cut to keep them in check long enough to get thru them without getting kicked, that said I'd rather move along to a safer tree or take it down with a machine.


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## ss~zoso~ss (Feb 21, 2012)

Half as much splitting to do!


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## Chris-PA (Feb 21, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> If you can't slap those hollow trees down with an excavator, you can double strap above your cut to keep them in check long enough to get thru them without getting kicked, that said I'd rather move along to a safer tree or take it down with a machine.


Probably there are more of us with hollow trees than with excavators..... I hate hollows!


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 21, 2012)

Walt,

If you were referring to me, I had no idea the middle was gone until I started on the back cut. The face cut was not deep enough to discover it was rotted and it popped in the backcut once I got out of the solid wood. The middle was hollow, so the chain never pulled out soft and discolored material like it does when you hit decaying wood.

Gary


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## jropo (Feb 21, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I would have to say I've never had one do that...:msp_confused: I've heard of it, but most of the stuff I cut is leaning so hard, there's no question as to what it's gonna do... Just figured I'd get some info from you straight tree guys... I may find one some day...
> :hmm3grin2orange:



I concider any tree that has a full crown(top) and a good lean w/ a striaght but log w/ no knots, to have a potencial to "Slab" or "Chair" and treat them as such. I'd rather fart around w/ a bore cut and be safe for no reason, than run for my life.
Straight Oaks are like glass @ 12*IMO, Ash can be bad too. I figure if it splits easy for fire wood she'll split just as easy on the stump. I split a nice little Oak almost down to the stump once from tring to play dominos. They are around my bon fire pit now. 
If the bark twists all the way up the tree, good chance the wood is twisted too, less chance of slabbing, if it has a big lean, I bore if I can, or haul a$$ through it.
Just what I do, results may vary.


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## jropo (Feb 21, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> Walt,
> 
> If you were referring to me, I had no idea the middle was gone until I started on the back cut. The face cut was not deep enough to discover it was rotted and it popped in the backcut once I got out of the solid wood. The middle was hollow, so the chain never pulled out soft and discolored material like it does when you hit decaying wood.
> 
> Gary



Big Beech trees are good for this.
Around me anyway.


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## Kevin in Ohio (Feb 21, 2012)

Mother nature did this one about 4 years ago. Left it go till this December and wood was beautiful. This one was ash and just under 2 ft in diameter at the bottom. This is what I call "air storage"


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## jropo (Feb 21, 2012)

Kevin in Ohio said:


> Mother nature did this one about 4 years ago. Left it go till this December and wood was beautiful. This one was ash and just under 2 ft in diameter at the bottom. This is what I call "air storage"



Nice!


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## LazyJ (Feb 22, 2012)

I thought it was gonna chair a 2nd time, gufus standing right behind it trying to push it over after almost getting slapped a minute before. I'll give him points for wearing a helmet and being fleet footed.


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## Walt41 (Feb 22, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> Walt,
> 
> If you were referring to me, I had no idea the middle was gone until I started on the back cut. The face cut was not deep enough to discover it was rotted and it popped in the backcut once I got out of the solid wood. The middle was hollow, so the chain never pulled out soft and discolored material like it does when you hit decaying wood.
> 
> Gary



No, I was just speaking in general terms of how I like to deal with hollow ones, funny I was thinking tonight about trees I have cut and I can remember every hollow one. One in particular stands out, it was in an old graveyard that dates back to the civil war, I was working for the local parks dept at the time and we had an old pro Mac 10-10 for a saw, I made sure I stopped home and gathered up my Echo 650 and two ratchet straps, bound it tight and went at it fast, it fell where I needed it to but split enough to tighten the one strap so tight I had to cut all around it to get it loose enough to get the mechanism to release. If given a choice I avoid hollow trees.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 22, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> No, I was just speaking in general terms of how I like to deal with hollow ones, funny I was thinking tonight about trees I have cut and I can remember every hollow one. One in particular stands out, it was in an old graveyard that dates back to the civil war, I was working for the local parks dept at the time and we had an old pro Mac 10-10 for a saw, I made sure I stopped home and gathered up my Echo 650 and two ratchet straps, bound it tight and went at it fast, it fell where I needed it to but split enough to tighten the one strap so tight I had to cut all around it to get it loose enough to get the mechanism to release. If given a choice I avoid hollow trees.


Thanks for the ratchet strap tip, I will keep that in mind.

Can anyone explain why a too-deep face cut makes barber chair more likely? I've been thinking about that and I can't dope it out - it seems like a deeper face cut would relieve the difference between the compression and tension sides and make it less likely, but I'm sure that must not be it.


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## Preston (Feb 22, 2012)

And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?


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## logbutcher (Feb 22, 2012)

*Coos Bay Cut ?*

OK, I give up: what's a "COOS BAY CUT" ? 

Not one of those boring jobs used out on your Left Coast ? :jester:


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## branchbuzzer (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> OK, I give up: what's a "COOS BAY CUT" ?
> 
> Not one of those boring jobs used out on your Left Coast ? :jester:



Coos Bay Cut


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## forestryworks (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



:bang:

You need more instruction.


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## HorseFaller (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



To be honest Preston, I'm suprised that's all that's been broke. 
For your example you probobly cut all the way through. 
I would do as Forestry works says and seek instruction.


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## slowp (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> OK, I give up: what's a "COOS BAY CUT" ?
> 
> Not one of those boring jobs used out on your Left Coast ? :jester:



It works. I used it on a small tree leaning across a road last year, and it worked beautifully.


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## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

*Coos Bay Cut*



logbutcher said:


> OK, I give up: what's a "COOS BAY CUT" ?
> 
> Not one of those boring jobs used out on your Left Coast ? :jester:



Try it, moron. Maybe you can make it work.







For the rest of you guys...this cut works best with a large head leaner. I've had good luck with the triangle method but the T would probably work just as well.

Thanks to Gary for the diagram.


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## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



You're kidding, right? Please tell us this is a joke.


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## Walt41 (Feb 22, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Thanks for the ratchet strap tip, I will keep that in mind.
> 
> Can anyone explain why a too-deep face cut makes barber chair more likely? I've been thinking about that and I can't dope it out - it seems like a deeper face cut would relieve the difference between the compression and tension sides and make it less likely, but I'm sure that must not be it.



Make sure you use heavy duty ones, not HD ATV tiedowns and use all of it, the tree should look like it is bandaged, usually 4-5x times around works, I like to use two to spread the load out over two mechanisms, don't finish with the ratchet facing your back cut, keep it to a side.
The too deep face cut reduces the amount of holding wood and can over stress what is left as it begins to fall and bad things can happen. Keep in mind that I am not a pro, just a guy who started felling trees for firewood and work at age 13 and am only sharing what has worked for me and kept me out of the ER.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 22, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> Make sure you use heavy duty ones, not HD ATV tiedowns and use all of it, the tree should look like it is bandaged, usually 4-5x times around works, I like to use two to spread the load out over two mechanisms, don't finish with the ratchet facing your back cut, keep it to a side.
> The too deep face cut reduces the amount of holding wood and can over stress what is left as it begins to fall and bad things can happen. Keep in mind that I am not a pro, just a guy who started felling trees for firewood and work at age 13 and am only sharing what has worked for me and kept me out of the ER.


Thanks - I'll keep thinking about it! I usually try for a 1/3 facecut anyway.

I have not had anything big barber chair on me, that would be scary. I run into lateral splitting a lot with blown over, cantilevered trees with big branches hanging out horizontally. They're mostly down and there's not any real question of where they will fall, but often there is still a lot of energy in them and they can do surprising things. I've had a 3' oak split laterally after sawing half way through, with the butt and root ball settling back down and forming a tongue that lifted the cut about 4' in the air. At least there was nothing to fall on me at that point.


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## LazyJ (Feb 22, 2012)

That triangle version of the Coos is sweet, beats boring in any day. I use it on larger trees even if they aren't leaners mainly because it helps me line up the final back cut perfectly.


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## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



I don't know what happined in your case, but I have see this before.

But in my case I was taking down a big group of essentally spring poles that was knocked over when some one dumped a big tree on them while logging.
I did have pics of the mess before and after but I can't find them now and if I do find them I will post.
It was about 12 trees all together it looked like the big blowdowns they have in PNW, but much, much smaller.
It was like a dangerious game of pickup sticks. Study, and read the wood before you even start the saw.

View attachment 225454





View attachment 225455





Every thing was top locked so I had to take them out at the knees. (Jump them back) It was like a big dome.
If these were logs I would of been screued since I had to take a few spars off the butts to get the whole mess down.


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## Preston (Feb 22, 2012)

No, it's no joke. I bout killed myself. It has been about 42 years ago so I really don't remember just what I did, but seems like I did cut through the tree to soon. As for training, didn't know there was such a think when it came to cutting a tree.


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## Walt41 (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> No, it's no joke. I bout killed myself. It has been about 42 years ago so I really don't remember just what I did, but seems like I did cut through the tree to soon. As for training, didn't know there was such a think when it came to cutting a tree.



There is and it is never too late to get some, I was fortunate enough to get a little from a retired forester at a young age and cut enough easy ones before getting on to the dangerous ones. Keep in mind you can die from a mistake with a tree, don't matter if it is your fourth or four thousandth, as soon as you compromise safety, bad things happen.


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## forestryworks (Feb 22, 2012)

Walt41 said:


> There is and it is never too late to get some, I was fortunate enough to get a little from a retired forester at a young age and cut enough easy ones before getting on to the dangerous ones. Keep in mind you can die from a mistake with a tree, don't matter if it is your fourth or four thousandth, as soon as you compromise safety, bad things happen.



Tree size doesn't matter either. 

The small ones will hurt you just as bad as a big one.


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## Walt41 (Feb 22, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Tree size doesn't matter either.
> 
> The small ones will hurt you just as bad as a big one.



Yep, old fella that trained me up liked to throw out examples from his life, for size he used to say " last time I thought something small was harmless was when a 125lb ex boxer broke my nose" mind you this guy was about 6' 4" and 280ish and not fat.


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## TreePointer (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



You've been lucky. The lack of face cut or notch increases the likelihood of a barberchair. You are also less likely to control the direction of fall.

A proper face cut and backcut takes a little practice, but it will give you the most control and safety. Note that I wrote "proper." The face cut has to be of proper depth, direction, and the top and bottom cuts must meet in a vertex (avoid a dutchman). The backcut must be at the proper height above the vertex. Between the face cut and back cut you must leave enough HOLDING WOOD to control the direction of fall and prevent other disasters.

You shouldn't have to guide a tree by hand. That's why we make a PROPER CUT and use WEDGES.

Stihl Video Library - Chain Saw Safety, Operation & Maintenance Chapter 10: Felling


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## slowp (Feb 22, 2012)

I'll post this again. This was a blowdown. The firewood cutters made the mistake of starting at the small end, instead of starting near the rootwad and stablizing the tree more. They got a few loads before it scared them.





View attachment 225467


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## dingeryote (Feb 22, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Thanks for the ratchet strap tip, I will keep that in mind.
> 
> Can anyone explain why a too-deep face cut makes barber chair more likely? I've been thinking about that and I can't dope it out - it seems like a deeper face cut would relieve the difference between the compression and tension sides and make it less likely, but I'm sure that must not be it.




Woodheat.

Grab a handfull of soda straws and bend them a little between your two hands. Trees are vertical stacks of fibers. The bend is "Weight" or lean.

The straws on the weighted side are compressed. The straws on the back side are under tension and resisting stretch.
Trees grow specialized fiberous tissues to better resist stretch and compression forces, like we build muscle...sort of, in order to resist gravity.

Now make a mental too deep face cut into that bundle of straws on the compression side. You have just created a fulcrum, leaving all of the trees weight, and leverage from length, to the tension side of the straws. Wood fibers aren't too elastic, so the shearing force between fibers at the point of the fulcrum are going to be insanely high and break the fibers apart at that point, as soon as the outside most tension fibers are relieved(Back cut) of pressure, and from there, gravity does the rest.

The "Hinge" created by the cut isn't just a hinge. It's also a fulcrum for a really long lever with many tons of force on the end of it.
"You want the fulcrum to be just 2 red cat hairs past balance point". 

Dunno if it makes sense, but that is the way it was explained to me.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## zogger (Feb 22, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Try it, moron. Maybe you can make it work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the drawing man! I looked at some other threads on this last night, and I was puzzled, I thought there wasn't a face cut, just the sides and back cut. I was going WTF??? 

Much clearer now. the side cuts are parallel to the lean, and aren't notches, just cuts, and get wedges, correct? And the face cut is a normal notch, just not terribly deep? I know it is a judgement call, being on the compression side. And your back cut you "approach with authority" and beat feet fast.

I could have used this cut bigtime last month on a heavy big oak leaner. On a hill, leaning downhill hard. It split the trunk but didn't chair off any, but it is def. split up a few feet and jumped the direction of the lean pretty good. I was uphill gaining speed when that thing went, LOL! I did NOT hang around. 

I just did a modest face cut and a back cut from two sides on it, and wedged the back once I was in aways, then finished it towards the hinge and..heard a noise, split!! I didn't gather any cobwebs!

I like that triangle, loads more wood to hold stuff as you cut to the hinge.

I need to learn a lot more about this. My boss has a shavings mill almost done, and I am hoping to be able to be the pine supplier off the property here, we have thousands of them, some hugemongous. We go through tractor trailer loads of shavings every six weeks, he is current;y having to buy them, this would save him ton$ of loot, plus make me some extra.

I'm taking it slow and easy and walking away from harder ones still. Working my way up. Getting more familiar with dealing with larger trees and different/difficult situations. Doing more research, etc. I have to be self taught on this so..safety is job #1 and stuff.

There aren't that many logging crews around here and it is mostly mechanized now anyway AFAIk talking to the saw shop folks, so I don't have any nearby way to learn from more experienced guys on the job for big timber type stuff. Most of the ground cutting here is tops for firewood and a LOT of storm cleanup and arborist tree work. No big hand felling in other words.


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## Preston (Feb 22, 2012)

I guess it's sorta like me being an X ironworker, folks used to ask me all the time 'aren't afraid of going up there 200 or more feet in the air. I always said no, that I'd probably be just as dead falling from 30 feet and 200. So what's the big difference in the other 170 feet. Ironwork was my comfort zone.


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## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

My Neighbor's chair he made.
A face might of saved him a pair of skibbies:bang:
View attachment 225468


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## Preston (Feb 22, 2012)

I have been one fortunate fool. I've never made a face cut and never had that happen. But like I said, I did have one slide off the stump backwards and eat my saw. :msp_mad: That 041 was one fantastic saw. It would handle any tree chain first. But case first never works.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 22, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> Woodheat.
> 
> Grab a handfull of soda straws and bend them a little between your two hands. Trees are vertical stacks of fibers. The bend is "Weight" or lean.
> 
> ...


If you think of the leaner before it's cut, the fibers on the back are stretched (tension) and the ones on the face are compressed. If you just sink a saw in the back you are relieving the tension on the fibers you cut. The weight of the top is now supported by fewer fibers and the face is under more compression - so it wants to curl more. The severed fibers don't want to curl, they want to straighten out - they're not under tension any more and they're not holding the top up, but they're still attached to it and "glued" to the back of the still-intact face fibers. When that bond fails it does not fail in shear (sliding), it pops perpendicular to the trunk as the face curls and the back straightens out. As the bond breaks there is less support keeping the front from bending, so it curls more and the top leans more. So more bonds break and the crack propagates. Assuming the hinge does not break, then if at some point the force up that crack is enough to break it then it all comes down from there.

But I still haven't worked out why the face cut makes this worse - maybe because it pushes the hinge back toward wider wood and makes it less likely to break first? Clearly if the hinge goes before the crack happens then everything is OK.

Interesting problem - part of my curiosity is that I cut a lot of leaning trees. Understanding the mechanics of it always helps me to visualize and improves my ability to anticipate.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Feb 22, 2012)

Another one with a WTF! factor. Eye that undercut.

http://www.youtube.com/v/A9j6GpNJZ_c&hl

Harry K


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## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

I can't figure out how to capture clips off dvd and I'm sure I'm not suppost too, but Ax Men Season 2 Disk 2 "Lost in the Fog" Levi Brown did a good demo on a Barber Chair and almost lost a saw in the process.


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## darkbyrd (Feb 22, 2012)

turnkey4099 said:


> Another one with a WTF! factor. Eye that undercut.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/v/A9j6GpNJZ_c&hl
> 
> Harry K



"Where's it gonna go!? Where's it gonna go?!"

I love the dude at the end, like it landed right where he wanted it.


----------



## branchbuzzer (Feb 22, 2012)

darkbyrd said:


> "Where's it gonna go!? Where's it gonna go?!"
> 
> I love the dude at the end, like it landed right where he wanted it.



Yep, like he chaired it on purpose to condense the LZ.....


----------



## darkbyrd (Feb 22, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Yep, like he chaired it on purpose to condense the LZ.....



If it could be controlled, that would be a handy technique!


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## logbutcher (Feb 22, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Try it, *moron*. Maybe you can make it work.



Gee willikers boy, you got some panties wet or what ? It all depends..............
Poor Gologit , gets worked up sitting on his butt all day. 
Anyhow, gotta be careful with this boy, he'll whine to mommie here if his feelings are hurt. I've been to his banned camp. :hmm3grin2orange:

Nice diagram, thanks. :msp_thumbup: We rarely use those cuts on our smaller Eastern trees, usually on leaners or rotten, with wedges. In fact, one of those is ripe for boring into the middle with wedges on either side directing the fall. Yes, "boring". No real name for that method...yet. Most of our hardwoods are too small DBH ( < 30" ) to get that fancy .

Nice to read some intelligent explanations, most who are able and willing to learn something new, and who don't have the baby need to name call. Thanks.


----------



## lumberjack48 (Feb 22, 2012)

What you call a Coos Bay cut, i call a Box cut. I used this style cut 30 yrs, i fell about 500 to 700 trees a week, never had a chair using it.

I never used the bore cut or a wedge, i didn't own a wedge.


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## forestryworks (Feb 22, 2012)

lumberjack48 said:


> What you call a Coos Bay cut, i call a Box cut. I used this style cut 30 yrs, i fell about 500 to 700 trees a week, never had a chair using it.
> 
> I never used the bore cut or a wedge, i didn't own a wedge.



Must be nice always falling to the lean... :monkey:


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> I cut at an slight angle down from back to front.



Ahhh, the dreaded "farmers backcut". I hope you didn't glean that from a HBRN training video... :hmm3grin2orange:



Preston said:


> I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird.



You need to leave holding wood for it to drop in the intended direction. If you cut through the hinge (especially at an angle) the tree can pivot.



Preston said:


> I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw.



You never want to be standing behind the tree you are cutting, especially pushing on it. Get some wedges and drive them from the side to lift the tree over.


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## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Must be nice always falling to the lean...



Yup...I'd like to have a job like that. What I _usually_ get is "lay everything sidehill with the butts toward the landing" (duh...that's usually a forester talking) or "quarter the slope a little but keep the bigger stuff in lead" or, on a yarder side, "just drop 'em straight down the hill, keep everything inside the unit, buck as many 40s as you can...but don't bust anything up".  My reply is always the same..."we'll see how it goes."


----------



## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Gee willikers boy, you got some panties wet or what ? It all depends..............
> Poor Gologit , gets worked up sitting on his butt all day.
> Anyhow, gotta be careful with this boy, he'll whine to mommie here if his feelings are hurt. I've been to his banned camp. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> ...



But, you _are_ a moron. You've proved it over and over. We're all pretty much agreed on that. But that's okay...we don't expect much from you. We usually don't get much, either. Your comments in the Forestry threads showed that you don't know enough about trees, saws, technique, or anything else for us to take you seriously.

And, by the way, in one of your threads you spoke of being supported by the taxpayers, you even thanked them for it. Are you retired military? Retired civil service? Or are you just another welfare slacker with a substance abuse problem working a phony disability shuck?

If you're retired military, thank you for your service. I mean that. If you're a retired civil servant that means you hung right in there. That's admirable. If those don't apply, well...what can I say?


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 22, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Must be nice always falling to the lean... :monkey:



Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:







Ain't much art to these... Just alot of work... Not very glamorous...


----------



## forestryworks (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



D9. Enough said.


----------



## logbutcher (Feb 22, 2012)

*End*



Gologit said:


> But, you _are_ a moron. You've proved it over and over. *We're all* pretty much agreed on that. But that's okay...*we* don't expect much from you. *We* usually don't get much, either. Your comments in the Forestry threads showed that you don't know enough about trees, saws, technique, or anything else for *us to take you seriously.
> *
> And, by the way, in one of your threads you spoke of being supported by the taxpayers, you even thanked them for it. Are you retired military? Retired civil service? Or are you just another welfare slacker with a substance abuse problem working a *phony disability shuck*? *SHUCK* ?:msp_sneaky:
> 
> If you're retired military, thank you for your service. I mean that. If you're a retired civil servant that means you hung right in there. That's admirable. If those don't apply, well...*what can I say?*


 Just don't say.

Sorry about your problems boy. So we'll look at your silly, childish responses. Unfortunate that your self esteem is so low that you have to sling this $#%@&.

Knowledge about "trees, saws, technique, or anything else.." If you were able to read with some intellect, most of my comments have been about WHAT I'VE LEARNED.
Understand ? Learned about what you've put up about your "pro" skills. Those pics of you and that tiny pooch look doctored. :hmm3grin2orange: You and a few similar fools found it fun to demean: 1.. learning and 2. Any technique other than what you know from the limited time in a limited part of the industry. Boring seemed to get you boys and girl all worked up...kinda sexual, huh ? You got real personal until challenged and had to whine about being abused. Poor baby. I'm being real careful here since you don't like getting out of the sandbox. 

My background is private. None of anyone's business. Not yours, not online. You want to give your all: background, history of work, ANY mil service, any civil service, marriage, sexual preference, and of course your SS number. And, I'm proud of what my career*s* ( that's plural ) have been. You want to know the full C.V. (look the phrase up )? Ask me.....privately.

No problems at all compared to yours. What's this need to put down ? There's the real problem. You can PM me for a referral.

Now back to what you call a Coos; read carefully. I asked what it was and how it's done. Ever didn't know anything ? No. You're a pro.

So here's what to do: 
1. Press "ignore" and/or
2. Gologit--the real kind. 
3. Get some cojones, the real kind. Be proud of what you have and do without the juvenille put-downs.

P.S. Don't ever thank anyone for "their service". Those who serve, serve. That phrase is one big B.S. with no meaning.

So end it here.


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 22, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> D9. Enough said.



Rep!!! :hmm3grin2orange:
But that's 90% of what I cut... :msp_thumbdn:


----------



## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Just don't say.
> 
> Sorry about your problems boy. So we'll look at your silly, childish responses. Unfortunate that your self esteem is so low that you have to sling this $#%@&.
> 
> ...



Thanks for answering my questions. What you said, and what you refused to say, told us a lot. Good luck to you.

Those of us who still work for a living and pay taxes will continue to support people like you who seem to take great pride in the fact that they don't. You thanked us tax payers for supporting you. You're welcome.

And, as far as "ending it here"? I'll decide that because the day that I allow a cull like you to make my decisions for me will be a cold day in hell.


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## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats a nice pic!
Only way I'd cut that, is if there is three strands of wire in it. :bang:
That would look cool covered in snow.


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## Nuzzy (Feb 22, 2012)

Preston said:


> I have been one fortunate fool. I've never made a face cut and never had that happen.




Neat.

I've never needed to use the brakes on a car, nor used a seat belt. Small world. :msp_thumbup:




logbutcher said:


> Gee willikers boy, you got some panties wet or what ? It all depends..............
> Poor Gologit , gets worked up sitting on his butt all day...
> ...Nice to read some intelligent explanations, most who are able and willing to learn something new, and who don't have the baby need to name call. Thanks.




Seriously, shut the #### up. Learn from your superiors, or don't.




lumberjack48 said:


> I never used the bore cut or a wedge, i didn't own a wedge.



That is exceptional. Point to you sir. I guess the rest of us peons should continue to use our ill conceived wedges, all the time striving to reach such lofty aspirations.






Am I taking crazy pills here? Did Arboristsite suddenly go retarded??


----------



## Guido Salvage (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:



I would cut the one at the top of the picture and let it take out the lower one out on the way down...


----------



## darkbyrd (Feb 22, 2012)

Nuzzy said:


> Am I taking crazy pills here? Did Arboristsite suddenly go retarded??



I've learned some important lessons in this thread. I'm just glad I knew enough to know which ones.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Feb 22, 2012)

My score on this thread:

2 "You can't be serious?!?!"

1 Pissing Contest

1 Cut that I will be using on two leaning Red Oaks in the next couple weeks in lieu of the bore cut I had been considering.


----------



## Chris-PA (Feb 22, 2012)

Dalmatian90 said:


> My score on this thread:
> 
> 2 "You can't be serious?!?!"
> 
> ...


Yeah, I learned some useful stuff, in spite of the childishness.


----------



## dingeryote (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL!!!
That's a picturesque fencerow. How'd ya kill off all the Blackberry brambles, Greenbrier, Poison Ivy, and grapevine?

That one is ready for chest high snippage and re-stringing. 
Nice!!


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


>



It is amazing how much field you can reclaim by cleaning up fence rows. Plus you do not have to worry about running sticks through the mowing machine or baler.


----------



## logbutcher (Feb 22, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Thanks for answering my questions. What you said, and what you refused to say, told us a lot. Good luck to you.
> 
> NO QUESTIONS ANSWERED. NOTHING "SAID". NOTHING "REFUSED". The 'Told us' is your ASSume.
> 
> ...



You're still mouthing lovlies boy. Now I'm a "cull". Whew. Better than a moron. Meaningless. Hell is coming. :cool2:





Nuzzy said:


> Neat.
> 
> I've never needed to use the brakes on a car, nor used a seat belt. Small world. :msp_thumbup:
> 
> ...



No, just you sandbox people that are acting retarded. What emotions. Like a bunch of little girls fighting. "Seat belts, wedges, and boring": that's enough to get you fools worked up ? It's a get a life time.:msp_confused:

Time out. Butt: thanks for the sir though.

Now, can we get back to firewood and heating. These bloggers from the Forestry and Logging don't even use wood heat. Go back.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> You're still mouthing lovlies boy. Now I'm a "cull". Whew. Better than a moron. Meaningless. Hell is coming. :cool2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a donkeys behind everything you say is manuare. 20 years cuttin fire wood to make you the know all to end all just makes ya look stupid thinkin your an expert.
I believe your just a figmant of your web world imagination, add something constructive


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## dingeryote (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> You're still mouthing lovlies boy. Now I'm a "cull". Whew. Better than a moron. Meaningless. Hell is coming. :cool2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





"Sandbox people"? 

Red is such a flattering color.


----------



## Hedgerow (Feb 22, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> LOL!!!
> That's a picturesque fencerow. How'd ya kill off all the Blackberry brambles, Greenbrier, Poison Ivy, and grapevine?
> 
> That one is ready for chest high snippage and re-stringing.
> ...



Those Hedge tree roots grow 50 feet either direction, and what they don't shade out, they STARVE out... Cutting these things really call for mechanical intervention at times... They don't barber chair or anything exciting like that, but they are heavy, and like to grow horizontally...


----------



## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

slowp said:


> I'll post this again. This was a blowdown. The firewood cutters made the mistake of starting at the small end, instead of starting near the rootwad and stablizing the tree more. They got a few loads before it scared them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That will make your teeth click.:beat-up::doctor:


----------



## Nuzzy (Feb 22, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> WTF--Ok big fella, your attitude is no "superior". More stupidity. You need a spanking. When you have the cojones to tell someone to "shut the #### up", come to pappa. And those "superiors" are who and why ?






"Those superiors" are such based on decades of (and this is important now so try to pay attention) PROPER logging/felling knowledge and experience. 






logbutcher said:


> Now, can we get back to firewood and heating. These bloggers from the Forestry and Logging don't even use wood heat. Go back.





I may be in the minority, but I'm glad the Logging fellas made their way down here to offer their expertise. I'd rather learn from a pro than a certified amateur.


----------



## dingeryote (Feb 22, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Those Hedge tree roots grow 50 feet either direction, and what they don't shade out, they STARVE out... Cutting these things really call for mechanical intervention at times... They don't barber chair or anything exciting like that, but they are heavy, and like to grow horizontally...



We get 'em here too. Except they conspire with the thorny stuff to keep thier natural enemys(Farmers with Chainsaws) at bay, and nothing, not even Walnuts, stop our Grapevines. 

I hate it when they twist around enough that there is no way to cut a limb, without the end of it tangling with another in the canopy, and making a glorious mess of an overhead minefield. It's like a big Jenga puzzle LOL!! 

Havn't had the opportunity to cut fencerow Hedge in several years, as it is getting cleaned up as fast as oil prices are going up.
Lotsa Boxelder and swamp maple...dangit.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## jropo (Feb 22, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> It is amazing how much field you can reclaim by cleaning up fence rows. Plus you do not have to worry about running sticks through the mowing machine or baler.



I wonder how well a good gas powered pole saw would work on that?
Work your way in, then work your way up. Prune and straighten, then you can maybe harvest a few in the future.
To remove? Rent a chipper.


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## dingeryote (Feb 22, 2012)

Nuzzy said:


> "Those superiors" are such based on decades of (and this is important now so try to pay attention) PROPER logging/felling knowledge and experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Looks like you caught him before he slithered back out. Classic!!!:hmm3grin2orange:

The only logs the dude cuts, requires Charmin afterwards, and he's busting on guys who have cleared Mountains in weeks....whata dweeb.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Gologit (Feb 22, 2012)

jropo said:


> That will make your teeth click.:beat-up::doctor:



That would make more than my _teeth_ click. Somebody was real lucky. Usually when those things happen they happen in an eye blink.

From the looks of Slowp's picture it scared them so bad they didn't even finish cutting what they had on the ground.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 23, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> It is amazing how much metal you can find by cleaning up fence rows. Plus you do not have to worry about running sticks through the mowing machine or baler.


There, that's better. You're most welcome.


----------



## KiwiBro (Feb 23, 2012)

*Whatever happened to the slopping back cut for these potential barber chairs?*

?


----------



## jropo (Feb 23, 2012)

Gologit said:


> That would make more than my _teeth_ click. Somebody was real lucky. Usually when those things happen they happen in an eye blink.
> 
> From the looks of Slowp's picture it scared them so bad they didn't even finish cutting what they had on the ground.



Ya looks like (Well I hope) they got REAL lucky there. I hope they had a long bar.
Scary thing is, not you or anything is going to stop it.
My question is why does it look like it was bucked for a saw log?
Was these guys the large scale firewooders?


----------



## HorseFaller (Feb 23, 2012)

Well I'll tell one or two on myself. First (one no photo). Cutting birch at a friends. Face cut not a third and not opened enough. Started my back cut with about 4 inches left to cut the face closed and upped it ripped. I kept cutting watching all the time and wide open still cutting. Ripped six feet till I got it cut up and layed out. When I turned around my friend was thirty yards away and still running. 
Second
Got to lazy to try and spring board a big maple. Holding saw high trying to cut. To much forward weight, not enough throttle, to narrow of a face, and should have bored it. I cut for an hour after this and left the hill for the day.


----------



## TreePointer (Feb 23, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Whatever happened to the slopping back cut for these potential barber chairs?



Some interesting reading. It starts out on another topic but quickly jumps to sloping backcuts:
http://www.arboristsite.com/homeowner-helper-forum/180696.htm

More info:
Logging eTool - The Back Cut - Incorrect Backcutting

Many discussions on this:
sloping angled backcut


----------



## RandyMac (Feb 23, 2012)

That is a tasty one HorseFaller.

Yeah barberchairs, pretty cool, but if you want to really ####-up, have a tree uproot on ya.


----------



## HorseFaller (Feb 23, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> That is a tasty one HorseFaller.
> 
> Yeah barberchairs, pretty cool, but if you want to really ####-up, have a tree uproot on ya.



:msp_cursing::censored: ya i watched one of Jack/Hotsaws101 vid where one he is bore cutting with a good lean pull a root. the crazy ones are in some of the Westcoastfaller vids. theres one an over ripe cedar pulls half a stump out of the ground. i imagine its harder to run away when the ground under your feet is going with the tree.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 23, 2012)

TreePointer said:


> Some interesting reading. It starts out on another topic but quickly jumps to sloping backcuts:
> http://www.arboristsite.com/homeowner-helper-forum/180696.htm
> 
> More info:
> ...


Thanks. That's one of the few lessons I've actually already learned. T'was extracting the urine with that previous post, honest.


----------



## TreePointer (Feb 23, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Thanks. That's one of the few lessons I've actually already learned. T'was extracting the urine with that previous post, honest.



:embarrassed: Oops, sorry. I take things too seriously sometimes. Maybe I need to drink more beer. That must be it!


----------



## paccity (Feb 23, 2012)

the fun is every where on this site. KiwiBro, at least you spelled the cut rite.


----------



## Preston (Feb 23, 2012)

I've learned some interesting things on this tread too. I best keep my experiences to myself least I open myself up to attack from a few of the elite. Most are interested in helping and/or explaining why something should be done, but there is the percentage that has a tongue, and fingers that somehow like to get scrappy. To you folk that like to be a little sarcastic, here's one of the best, but I just don't think a site is promoted very well with this kinda crap. So I'll leave it to the rest of you to carry on that tradition.

I post what I've had happen to me and some of the responses are off the wall. I don't get it. I never said I knew what I was doing. I bought two saws and a truck and headed to the timber to feed the family. I had to learn as I went. I never reach the point where I knew it all like some of you. That just shows the Lord really didn't make us all the same. Some of us are just smarter than the others. So I'll just muddle along in my ignorant world and watch the rest of you.

By the way, I really do use the brakes on my truck. And the seat belt sometimes. :cool2:

Some of you folks are plumb weird. :smile2:


----------



## Whitespider (Feb 23, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> * Once I hit the hollow she popped and splintered. It left the front side of the tree about 20' up… I saw it start to split and was able to get out of the way.*



Two days I’ve been looking for the picture of a barber chair I experienced some years back so I could scan it and post… but no luck, so I’ll just tell y’all about it.

It was a 3 ft diameter oak that stood straight and clean, with a good 30 feet of branchless trunk… I figured it to be a slam-dunk fall. Made a nice clean face cut about a third diameter, and found solid wood all the way. Stopped and gassed up the little 024 I was using (don’t want it running out’a fuel in the back cut) with a 20 inch bar. After checking the fall zone and notch again I started my back cut. I didn’t get but maybe 6-8 inches in when I heard a huge cracking noise, about the same time black colored debris is flying off the chain, and watched the split start right above the bar. Yanked the saw and took off running until I got a safe distance away and turned to look… nothing, still standing there. Five minutes later and it’s still standing there with a crack running about 8-10 feet up that you can see daylight through. Twice I approached the tree to do something? And twice it split a bit more as I was walking up, causing me to run away again. Finally, after a good twenty minutes it went over, splitting near 25 feet up and resting on some huge limbs. Now I had a 3 ft DBH oak sitting horizontal 25 feet in the air… damn scary. The back side of that tree was as hollow as a drain pipe, with absolutely no indication of such from outer appearances.

Now, when falling big trees that might be hollow, I do a boring cut in the center of the notch … just for piece of mind.


----------



## Dalmatian90 (Feb 23, 2012)

> So I'll just muddle along in my ignorant world and watch the rest of you.



Would be better if you kept your ears and eyes open and mouth shut...and tried to learn something rather then being stubborn and determined to muddle along in happy ignorance.

I can't tell if your posts are sincere or are trolling. Which is what a lot of the other posters were questioning either straight or sarcastically.

Claiming you spent two years cutting down 24" trees and gave up on using face cuts early on strain credibility. I just can't see how you do that, not without trees regularly sitting back on your saw. Not without regularly running from trees falling wild. Even with wedges (which you didn't mention using), with no face cut, you would've had regular problems. I guess you could've been very lucky. It took me a while to learn the basics of notching, back cuts, and wedges...before I did I had trees sit back or a few times simply sit down on my saw.

You did have one question why a tree slid back and crushed your 041. Simple answer is you didn't have a face cut to stop it from happening, which is one of the purposes to a properly made face cut (it provides a lip for the tree to bite into and pivot forward from, rather then the butt sliding backwards off the stump).


----------



## slowp (Feb 23, 2012)

jropo said:


> Ya looks like (Well I hope) they got REAL lucky there. I hope they had a long bar.
> Scary thing is, not you or anything is going to stop it.
> My question is why does it look like it was bucked for a saw log?
> Was these guys the large scale firewooders?



The picture doesn't show the scale of the thing. It was an old growth Douglas-fir and a large one. Not huge, but large. 

I checked the cutter's permit the day before. I think they were from Tacoma? They may have cut the length because they realized they had screwed up? They stil screwed up. But the tree was going out in firewood chunks, unfortunately.

The day after I took this picture, the tree had been cut up and was gone, except for the rootwad. The local mill was shut down for a couple of weeks so the competition had ramped up. 

Here's the results of a well respected local faller who was called in to cut this snag down. It was within striking distance of a busy county road so needed to come down. It measured 11 feet diameter before exploding. I wasn't there, but looked around afterwards. He prepared for the outcome by having two well cleared escape routes made. No tripping hazards on them.

The stump is underneath the big toothpicks.







One of his prepared escape routes. Don't forget about your escape route.





View attachment 225687
View attachment 225688


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## Preston (Feb 23, 2012)

For you comfort , D90, let me assure you I'm no troll. When I was cutting I was cutting only Southern pine. No hardwood at all. I don't really know if the two different woods reacted differently to this barber chair thing. Still I did what I did, right or wrong. Also I do keep my eyes and ears open and only opened my mouth to basically tell what happened to me. Now if on this site exposing wrongs done is not the thing to do, that can be corrected. Then where would you be? Left with no one to show your superiority. Kinda like the song, Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. I can only wish I knew a much as you, but I enjoy learning. I wouldn't want to be like you. I can only imagine sitting around a table trying to have a conversation with you involved.  Unlike you I started an absolute virgin, not born an expert. I had nobody to go to for advise as I was in the woods by myself. The close calls I had did help me learn for sure. I never did the same mistake twice, but the cut on the front I didn't know was not right.

Unlike you I learn by asking questions. No one can explain a way to do anything and have everybody understand what they mean. Damn I just wish I had a been born as near perfect as you think you were. :smile2:


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## jropo (Feb 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> The picture doesn't show the scale of the thing. It was an old growth Douglas-fir and a large one. Not huge, but large.
> 
> I checked the cutter's permit the day before. I think they were from Tacoma? They may have cut the length because they realized they had screwed up? They stil screwed up. But the tree was going out in firewood chunks, unfortunately.
> 
> ...




I keep forgeting that you guys don't grow small trees.
"I checked the cutters permit"? Forester?
Ya I'd say thems some big tooth picks! 40''?
So the stump exploded? Rot? and the tree came down on top of it?


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## Hedgerow (Feb 23, 2012)

jropo said:


> I keep forgeting that you guys don't grow small trees.
> "I checked the cutters permit"? Forester?
> Ya I'd say thems some big tooth picks! 40''?
> So the stump exploded? Rot? and the tree came down on top of it?



I was wondering the same thing...:msp_confused:


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2012)

Retired "forester" now. 

That big snag was left up too long. Yes, it had rot. It had been dead and standing for a few years. Somebody finally hollered loud enough.

The faller who did the deed is one that is called when there are hazard trees along roads or in campgrounds that are beyond the skills of the in house faller. 

He was on the cover of Madsen's catalog last year in a photo where he was cutting a big tree in a campground.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> Retired "forester" now.
> 
> That big snag was left up too long. Yes, it had rot. It had been dead and standing for a few years. Somebody finally hollered loud enough.
> 
> ...



OK.. So this man, being a specialist in hazard trees...
I have to ask, was he surprised by the outcome?
Or did he figure it was inevitable?


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## jropo (Feb 23, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> That is a tasty one HorseFaller.
> 
> Yeah barberchairs, pretty cool, but if you want to really ####-up, have a tree uproot on ya.



I never have had a tree uproot, and I hope one never does.

I cut this one last winter that was underminded by the the river and blown over.

View attachment 225699




I was unsure what it was going to do.
1. As soon as I start my top cut, lets the stump lose back into into the river, pulling the tree and me w/ it.
2. As soon as the tree is free from the stump, the stump continues its path and flops my way onto the the log.
3. As soon as I get into it, the pressure caused by the bind that it was in, releases and throws the butt (in the pic the left side).
4. Nothing, log falls to the ground and stump stays put.

What I did was, I cut the top one first, buy standing on the bottom one. 
Then on the bottom one, I cut up the top, releived any top bind.
Cleared one heck of a exit route (right side of tree).
(w/ my big saw w/ a 28'' bar for added reach) I did an under cut (if the stump started going back into the river, cut would of started to close, pinching the bar. I got about a 1/3 up then stopped.
Reached under the tree and cut some from the far side, Checked my exit, and ready to use it, WOT, not dogging in, I started the top cut from the far side, and worked my way to my side of the tree and down, using a sawing action to feel for a bind.
Log left the stump and flopped on the ground and I was on the exit. Root wad stayed. Frozen.
Grabbed a stout pole and proped up the root wad. Started bucking, watching the wad at the sightist breeze. 
The main reason I wanted to cut this, is so I could watch the wad go back into the river.....SPLASH!!!!
Never went over, until spring, I drove by one day and it flopped back down into the river. With the 4'' stump that I left you would never even know it was there. 

These are common it may area, and a good score for a firewooder, but can be dangerious. First instinct is to start sawing on the log. Without knowing what kind of pressure it has on it, could lead to a long day at best.


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## jropo (Feb 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> Retired "forester" now.
> 
> That big snag was left up too long. Yes, it had rot. It had been dead and standing for a few years. Somebody finally hollered loud enough.
> 
> ...



Cool!!!
Do you have the pic to share?
Name?
Sounds like the type of guy that I'd like to have a cup and hold down a chair with, or at least pack his fuel/saw.


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## slowp (Feb 23, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> OK.. So this man, being a specialist in hazard trees...
> I have to ask, was he surprised by the outcome?
> Or did he figure it was inevitable?



He discussed it a bit in the Logging and Forestry forum. He joined for a while. It is buried in the Falling Pics somewhere. The humongus thread started by Burvol. 

Falling isn't his day job anymore. He was injured in a car accident so can't do it full time. He is a contract examiner for the falling and bucking certification of C (over 24 inches) fallers for the government. He sells insurance too. 

NW Axman was his user name????

And no, I don't think he was surprised by what happened. He knows his stuff. He learned early, packing gear for his dad, who is also in the Madsen's catalog and was known to be an expert faller.


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## Dalmatian90 (Feb 23, 2012)

Preston said:


> For you comfort , D90, let me assure you I'm no troll. When I was cutting I was cutting only Southern pine. No hardwood at all. I don't really know if the two different woods reacted differently to this barber chair thing. Still I did what I did, right or wrong. Also I do keep my eyes and ears open and only opened my mouth to basically tell what happened to me. Now if on this site exposing wrongs done is not the thing to do, that can be corrected. Then where would you be? Left with no one to show your superiority. Kinda like the song, Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way. I can only wish I knew a much as you, but I enjoy learning. I wouldn't want to be like you. I can only imagine sitting around a table trying to have a conversation with you involved.  Unlike you I started an absolute virgin, not born an expert. I had nobody to go to for advise as I was in the woods by myself. The close calls I had did help me learn for sure. I never did the same mistake twice, but the cut on the front I didn't know was not right.
> 
> Unlike you I learn by asking questions. No one can explain a way to do anything and have everybody understand what they mean. Damn I just wish I had a been born as near perfect as you think you were. :smile2:



No, not perfect. As I said in my post, I've learned.

I'm not the one who wrote I'd prefer to muddle along in ignorance.

I also don't try and play the humble card while simultaneously copping a superior-to-you attitude.

Just told you straight out why myself, and others, are having a problem trying to figure out if you're serious about your experiences or are instead deliberately trolling.

But this last post pretty much answered my question.


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 23, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> Whatever happened to the slopping back cut for these potential barber chairs?



It went out of vogue when all the various iterations of HBRN were banned.


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## zogger (Feb 23, 2012)

*Here's my almost barber chair*

This is the one I think I almost chaired last month. I could have used a much better technqiue, and hopefully now I know of one.

disclaimer: golly gee, why dadgum I am a farmer! As such, I am not an expert in any one thing, but am good enough to do dozens of outdoor type work "things". I am always willing to learn to do something better and safer.

I fully acknowledge there are tons of specialists out there who are loads better than me with this or that job. And it doesn't bother me at all or hurt my ego to know I screwed up, and that there was a better way. I am grateful to learn all the time. And usually, for most things, I am all self taught, I usually always work by myself for most jobs I have done. *shrugs* that's just how it is. The internet helps a lot because you can look things up or ask people who know more. Then share it forward when you can.

politely

with that said, here are the details in pics:

Dang, they really DO wear rubber boots, with the pants tucked in..(get yore yuks in! hahahah).this is why, this is exactly what I have to work in doing some of my chores...here's feeding big hungry guys who go moo. Just not real comfy or cost effective or practical to wear 300 dollar leather lace up high heeled clompers doing this sort of work.






A little wider view of where I just walked...






Here's another job. When the creek is low, I drag branches and logs and stuff out. This keeps it from damming up and flooding the fields, or moving a buncha stuff downstream where it can destroy the hanging sheet metal barricade that serves as a suggestion fence for the beefers to stay home. I come around now and then when it is dry enough and harvest this wood for firewood. Notice, rubber waterproof boots are a good idea here as well. I'm standing right in the creek in this pic. I like to cross this thing at least twice a day on foot, so I can check fences and stock on the far side fields. A lot of times, though, I can't, just too deep and fast.






And the almost chair and stump. The tree was a real heavy leaner, on a steep slope, around a 30 degree slope, and the leaner added to that, so call it a 45 degree leaner. I didn't know about this coosbay styled deal, so I just did a carefully cut so as to not pinch, face cut, then came in and back cut from two directions. I dragged any loose branches out of the way, checked my overhead a lot, and listened as good as my ears can still work for anything ...ominous..I did not have a holder strap of wood or bore cut.

I *knew* this was a sucky and dangerous fell job, but I wanted it down for a few reasons, one of which it was going to fall in a storm or two and I don't want uprooted rootballs on this hill. When I cut this last month I didn't know about a better way. It's also real nice oak score (still isn't bucked, too muddy down there) and I am cleaning up this hillside doing my best-again, not an expert, just another of dozens of different jobs- effort at junior woodlot management. I'm taking out goofy bent trees, trees we have too many of, letting some light in to encourage better trees, berming the hillside to conserve topsoil, and etc. There *was* a small amount of fiber on this stump, I just cut pulled strings off when I finish stumps, that's all (fresh stumps good place to take a sit and enjoy life, good before the ants move in..that's a good enough reason for me!), There really wasn't much, this surprised me.






And here it is, the log. You can see the crack and how it split straight up and almost but didn't barber chair. It shot a few feet off the stump downhill with some fair to decent force..... It did drop where I intended it to. So...I give myself a D+ on this job, as it was still too dangerous, and there was a safer better way to do this. Now I know. 

Oh, BTW, when I cut, I switch rubber boots to *steel toed* rubber boots. Just because.... 






So there ya go! Kids, don't do it this way, dumazz farmerz... bad juju, do it the correct way with a holding strip, and possibly add the ratchet straps as well..


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## branchbuzzer (Feb 23, 2012)

zogger said:


> And here it is, the log.



Are you sure those are the right pics? The log doesn't seem to match the stump in both, further away from stump in one shot, ground cover different, can't see crack in one pic. Might just be an optical illusion or my old age.

**edit - or that you rolled the log between shots...?


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## zogger (Feb 24, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Are you sure those are the right pics? The log doesn't seem to match the stump in both, further away from stump in one shot, ground cover different, can't see crack in one pic. Might just be an optical illusion or my old age.
> 
> **edit - or that you rolled the log between shots...?



--maybe, I'll check again. Yes it jumped and moved some as it slid down next to another tree. There are a few trees that were close together in the same pile now. the larger one was the leaner. They are laying across each other now. I'll take two more pics today, just the stump and the log showing the crack better, from closer up. I know my pics suck, the resolution on this camera phone is pretty dismal. I'll upgrade once the phone batteries get shot. 

I'm just glad it didn't chair and splinter and blow out. I was moving feets hard when it started to go. One of those times you wanted a pole saw with a 20 foot extension..and some guy named moose to run it.

Although I am way more confident now that I have seen and read about these other styled felling cuts, with the T and the triangle for the holding wood strips. 

I'd like to see some more vids taken with the idea of really showing up close what is going on and in sequence, doing leaners and so on. I'll practice-carefully-on some smaller ones when I run across some more leaners that can be took.

I'm trying to improve the woods a lot and leave all the good saw logs as much as possible, for ..dunno..way in the future I guess, while maintaining good diversity and leaving a lot of mast for the wild critters and the cows eat some of that too. Just something to do, be a responsible guy I guess.

I look at the woods as a big garden, needs some work now and then, not just harvesting, but weeding and thinning, etc. Plus that immediate pasture area right below those particular trees is a low spot that holds water and doesn't support good grass well, just weeds and pickers, etc. Trying to get a little sunlight in there to help it dry better. The field edges are always the problem areas because that's where the woods want to grow out into, so the whole perimeter needs some trimming all the time. Just whomever before me who was allegedly taking care of the fields..didn't, let too much crap grow up there (that dude eventually got fired). 

It had gotten to the point I couldn't even drive the tractor and mower down the edge, so many branches sticking out and overhanging. And the last time anyone logged in there, they just left a mess, wherever it fell. I've drug out dozens of leftover half rotten old log chunks and stuff like that they left right out in the field, then crap grows up around it because you can't mow. I don't consider that very "professional". They may have been able to fell trees and sell logs, but they left a freeking huge mess. AFAIK, talking to my boss, this particular field hadn't been mowed one single time in at least 15 years before I came here. It's taken me several years to get it back to at least there's a lot of good grazing down there now. It was 3/4ths bramble, poke, saplings, huge multiflora organic barbed wire bushes, burdock patches, all sorts of nasty stuff I don't even know the name of, but for sure ain't many critters will eat the stuff.. Ya, it's bottom land swampy, but there's a few times a year you can mow easy and not leave bad ruts. So I hit it then.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 24, 2012)

zogger said:


> disclaimer: golly gee, why dadgum I am a farmer! As such, I am not an expert in any one thing, but am good enough to do dozens of outdoor type work "things". I am always willing to learn to do something better and safer.
> 
> I fully acknowledge there are tons of specialists out there who are loads better than me with this or that job. And it doesn't bother me at all or hurt my ego to know I screwed up, and that there was a better way. I am grateful to learn all the time. And usually, for most things, I am all self taught, I usually always work by myself for most jobs I have done. *shrugs* that's just how it is. The internet helps a lot because you can look things up or ask people who know more. Then share it forward when you can.


Zogger, a lot of us are generalists, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. The world needs more people who are generally competent in a wide variety of skills, which was once more common. I can plaster pretty well, but I've seen experts do it and, well ..... there's not much comparison. But I can get the job done and have it look good and last, and do the plumbing, framing and wiring that goes behind it too. 

I'm a firewood hack. I cut trees in my own woods for firewood to burn in my own stoves. I almost never cut a healthy tree, and there are few trees here in the 36" and larger size (and two of those fell over in the last year). I also work by myself because that's who's here to get the job done. I do not have nor can I afford big equipment - I'm lucky to have a 30hp tractor with a loader, which is a big help. While it's not that big most of what I fall is diseased, damaged, rotted, standing dead, twisted, hollow, leaning, hung, etc. It's pretty much all dangerous. I'm always interested to learn proper techniques in anything I do, but some of what is discussed here is not relevant to what I do. I don't care what the stumps look like, or if the wood cracks, or if it pulls fibers - it's going in the stove. I have no need for a humbolt face cut. My needs are to get it safely on the ground in about the direction I want it to go. This T or triangle cut will be helpful in that regard I think, as will many other things I've learned on AS in the last few months, both in regard to the equipment and technique. But I'm not a logger, nor do I want or need to be.


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## hardpan (Feb 24, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Zogger, a lot of us are generalists, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. The world needs more people who are generally competent in a wide variety of skills, which was once more common. I can plaster pretty well, but I've seen experts do it and, well ..... there's not much comparison. But I can get the job done and have it look good and last, and do the plumbing, framing and wiring that goes behind it too.
> 
> I'm a firewood hack. I cut trees in my own woods for firewood to burn in my own stoves. I almost never cut a healthy tree, and there are few trees here in the 36" and larger size (and two of those fell over in the last year). I also work by myself because that's who's here to get the job done. I do not have nor can I afford big equipment - I'm lucky to have a 30hp tractor with a loader, which is a big help. While it's not that big most of what I fall is diseased, damaged, rotted, standing dead, twisted, hollow, leaning, hung, etc. It's pretty much all dangerous. I'm always interested to learn proper techniques in anything I do, but some of what is discussed here is not relevant to what I do. I don't care what the stumps look like, or if the wood cracks, or if it pulls fibers - it's going in the stove. I have no need for a humbolt face cut. My needs are to get it safely on the ground in about the direction I want it to go. This T or triangle cut will be helpful in that regard I think, as will many other things I've learned on AS in the last few months, both in regard to the equipment and technique. But I'm not a logger, nor do I want or need to be.



Almost my twin resume only my 8N Ford isn't practical with a loader. My 2 big blow downs last year are 36" and 43" white oak, etc. I do it all and sometimes a fair imitation of a pro. Amazing how well our eyes and ears can serve us when hanging out with a few pros and I thank them for taking the time.


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## Preston (Feb 24, 2012)

You must have had a real blow for the white oaks to go over. That's about all I have on my place I trust to stay up. Well, that and the hickory. Red oaks here blow over like punching bags. Just not much of a root system. One year I lost 26 red oaks.:msp_mellow:


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## darkbyrd (Feb 24, 2012)

Preston said:


> One year I lost 26 red oaks.:msp_mellow:



Lost it to the woodpile?


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## Chris-PA (Feb 24, 2012)

Preston said:


> You must have had a real blow for the white oaks to go over. That's about all I have on my place I trust to stay up. Well, that and the hickory. Red oaks here blow over like punching bags. Just not much of a root system. One year I lost 26 red oaks.:msp_mellow:


I've had large white, northern red and shumard oaks all blow over in the last year and a half. None of them have much in the way of root systems! I look at oaks differently now - strong trees with shallow roots.


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## hardpan (Feb 24, 2012)

One white oak had bad roots, sick and decayed looking, and the whole root wad came out. The other one had a hidden hollow trunk and it broke off about 3' off the ground. Other smaller trees near these 2 also went down or broke off. The last few years our weather has become much more unpredictable. Last year we had all time records beat for rainfall and many totally healthy 140 year old trees pulled their root balls from the saturated ground. Also mini spot tornadoes hit, kind of like the tail briefly flips down to the ground and then dissipates or moves on. Firewood has been easy to find lately even though I seldom cut a healthy tree.


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## CJ1 (Feb 24, 2012)

I have popped a few trees but only chaired 1 bad. It was about a 40" Oak and it was leaning about 10 deg. into a field so most of the branches were toward the field also. There was a 6" deadman about 25 feet up in the tree on my standing side. Did about a 8" face cut then started cutting the back with my 272. I was planning to get a few logs out of the tree but the homeowner I was doing a favor for just wanted firewood. I was not planning to cut anything this big so I did not have my big saw. Needless to say when it started to go I chickened out because of the deadman and watched it chair about 10' in the air and stay there!!! That was fun to cut down and it solved the log problem also. CJ


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## logbutcher (Feb 24, 2012)

Cedarkerf said:


> What a donkeys behind everything you say is *manuare.* 20 years *cuttin* fire wood to make you the know all to end all just makes *ya* look stupid *thinkin* *your* an expert.
> I believe your just a figmant of your web world imagination, add something constructive





dingeryote said:


> "Sandbox people"?
> 
> Red is such a flattering color.





dingeryote said:


> Looks like you caught him before he slithered back out. Classic!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> The only logs the *dude* cuts, requires Charmin afterwards, and he's busting on guys who have cleared Mountains in weeks....whata *dweeb.*
> 
> ...



Looks like you girls just bought a load of manure spreaders. Charmin !
Yup, online for nothing else to do.
No "slithered" on this end little one.....back to the sandbox for you. Sling behind those skirts for kicks. "Yes, Herr Doktor, it's a sexual thing they miss."

Got some angry notes from you girls. Even offered to back off, or a truce. One Forest Gump took it as "weak". You wonder why ? And all that was posted was :

Game of Logging
Boring
PPE
Some basic info on learning. Learning:msp_confused:.
Oh yes: asked ( asked !) WTF a "Coos Bay Cut is ? Not so common for real loggers cutting hardwoods.

And that sets these fools off ? You got some problems.

So, back off, get on your PC ( 4-8 hours/day !), and get back to what this forum is about. NOT about your bragging to "cut a mountain in a week". Who really gives a %$#@&. 

Give us what you know about "Firewood, Heating, and Wood Burning Equipment". Can't be much with all these attacks.

No slithering until you girls again start whining to those who ban. Time out, huh ?

P.S. You girls did get "dweeb" right. And "dude".


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Looks like you girls just bought a load of manure spreaders. Charmin !
> Yup, online for nothing else to do.
> No "slithered" on this end little one.....back to the sandbox for you. Sling behind those skirts for kicks. "Yes, Herr Doktor, it's a sexual thing they miss."
> 
> ...



Uh, did you guys hear somebody say something? Me neither. Nothing worth listening to anyway.


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## logbutcher (Feb 24, 2012)

*Ignore*



Gologit said:


> Uh, did you guys hear somebody say something? Me neither. Nothing worth listening to anyway.



Then little one, you can play with %$#@, play with your toy dog, or &^%$#. Is your "CooS Bay Cut", the same as your "MORON CUT" ?  Hard to get how some low self worth fools can trash and attack, and when done to them, they panic. This one boasted about how "..all of us write to each other...". You and your sandbox cronys did attack first.....now hold those skirts.:hmm3grin2orange:

The real way to avoid this trauma for you is just to press *IGNORE*. We can show you.


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Then little one, you can play with %$#@, play with your toy dog, or &^%$#. Is your "CooS Bay Cut", the same as your "MORON CUT" ?  Hard to get how some low self worth fools can trash and attack, and when done to them, they panic. This one boasted about how "..all of us write to each other...". You and your sandbox cronys did attack first.....now hold those skirts.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> The real way to avoid this trauma for you is just to press *IGNORE*. We can show you.



Ignore you? No...I'm always interested in what you have to say. I figure if I listen long enough maybe some of what you say might start to make sense. It hasn't yet, but I'm hopeful. Of course, paranoid hysteria is a little hard to figure out sometimes but if you keep running your mouth maybe a lot us will begin to understand you. We really hope so anyway.

Oh, by the way, you never did tell us what kind of a phony disability shuck you're running. Us taxpayers, who support you, would like to know.


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## slowp (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought I was the only girl here. Is Mountaingal taking part too? Did the cookies arrive in time? 

I brought home a load of green red alder, not to be confused with Red Green from whom the ignored one plagerized the slogan of the Possum Lodge. 

Que' lastima.


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## Cedarkerf (Feb 24, 2012)

One person wants to talk about sex pantys girls and only game of logging. If i call you names and call you girls people will think im smart.Would be interesting if log hacker would post annedotel story or first hand experience or pics instead of blaa bllaaa blaa GOL is the only cuttin method cause I cut firewood for 20 years. Its funny how some of us actually know each other in real life and can back up the stories yet are attacked as posers by a guy livin in his moms basement. I know i need to just be quite but what a ...................................

DING DING DING I get it HBRN has a cousin back east sure has the same personality traits.


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

slowp said:


> I thought I was the only girl here. Is Mountaingal taking part too? Did the cookies arrive in time?
> 
> I brought home a load of green red alder, not to be confused with Red Green from whom the ignored one plagerized the slogan of the Possum Lodge.
> 
> Que' lastima.



es verdad.


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

Cedarkerf said:


> DING DING DING I get it HBRN has a cousin back east sure has the same personality traits.



Yeah, but I think I'd prefer HBRN. At least HBRN had a sense of humor and was entertaining. Sort of. That's better than his cousin.


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## slowp (Feb 24, 2012)

The weather report is mentioning 10 degrees. That's like -30 anywhere else. The pickup doors freeze shut, locks freeze. I shall break out the WD40 tomorrow. 

PAM is good for removing pitch from hands.


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

slowp said:


> The weather report is mentioning 10 degrees. That's like -30 anywhere else. The pickup doors freeze shut, locks freeze. I shall break out the WD40 tomorrow.
> 
> PAM is good for removing pitch from hands.



And huckleberry pie will cure all ills. It said so on Wikepedia so it must be true.


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## RandyMac (Feb 24, 2012)

I remember my first folding tree.


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## slowp (Feb 24, 2012)

I saw a tree fold. I was glad to see the faller was still upright and intact afterwards.


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## RandyMac (Feb 24, 2012)

Had three in a row before I figured it out. They were very tall Doug Firs being cut for piling, having them pre-bucked in the air wasn't in the plan.


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 24, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yeah, but I think I'd prefer HBRN. At least HBRN had a sense of humor and was entertaining. Sort of. That's better than his cousin.



I am not sure that he understood the entertainment value that he provided for us, but he sure kept the troops riled up. I guess he is now a gypo hazard tree remover...


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> I remember my first folding tree.



I remember my first folding _knife._ Got it at Brizzard's


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 24, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I remember my first folding _knife._



So do I, and still have the scar on my finger where it closed up about the same time Randy's Ranchero rolled off the line.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 24, 2012)

I remember my first folding girlfriend. Blowed my mind.


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 24, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> I remember my first folding girlfriend, blowed my mind.


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## dingeryote (Feb 24, 2012)

logbutcher said:


> Looks like you girls just bought a load of manure spreaders. Charmin !
> Yup, online for nothing else to do.
> No "slithered" on this end little one.....back to the sandbox for you. Sling behind those skirts for kicks. "Yes, Herr Doktor, it's a sexual thing they miss."
> 
> ...




OK...

Can somebody here please translate this complete abortion of text into something that roughly resembles, English, Spanish,or Italian?

Babelfish lacks a component for "Squirrel terrorizing knothole pumper" and I can't make heads or tails of what it is attempting to communicate.

Is there something pertinent in there?


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Gologit (Feb 24, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> OK...
> 
> Can somebody here please translate this complete abortion of text into something that roughly resembles, English, Spanish,or Italian?
> 
> ...



Pertinent? Not so far.


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## zogger (Feb 24, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Are you sure those are the right pics? The log doesn't seem to match the stump in both, further away from stump in one shot, ground cover different, can't see crack in one pic. Might just be an optical illusion or my old age.
> 
> **edit - or that you rolled the log between shots...?



OK, here are some more, perhaps you can see the detail of my near whoops better

You can see how far it jumped, and the terrain layout







the extent of the big split






the stump






Close up of the split






bonus pic...finished my fourth row of the oak tree in the front yard trims! Dang lotta wood in them branches! This stack of Fiskars Fodder is now 7.5 rows deep, the innermost row is my pile of bummer wood oddball nasty chunks from last year.

I'm letting it age some more....


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## TreePointer (Feb 24, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> OK...
> 
> Can somebody here please translate this complete abortion of text into something that roughly resembles, English, Spanish,or Italian?
> 
> ...



It's a logbutcher post. Stray from some notion of forum orthodoxy, and he will attempt to reorient our undisciplined thoughts. Don't fight it; just permit yourself to be entertained. I'm certain he is.


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## Hedgerow (Feb 24, 2012)

Spread some rep around to whom I could... Some of ya' will have to wait... I still ain't got any straight trees... But by gum if I find one, I'm gonna use a Coos Bay on it !!!


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## old cookie (Feb 25, 2012)

A guy i knew got killed today.Dont know much about it just that he was felling a tree. Man it just makes me stop and think this aint no game be careful and think about what you are doing all the time. we all wont to come home at night.


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## TreePointer (Feb 25, 2012)

old cookie said:


> A guy i knew got killed today.Dont know much about it just that he was felling a tree. Man it just makes me stop and think this aint no game be careful and think about what you are doing all the time. we all wont to come home at night.



Sorry to hear that.

Our region had a lot of high winds (50+ mph), and I was tempted to scout around for blowdowns. I'm glad I resisted because those winds kept coming back and would have made a hike through the forest a lot more dangerous.


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 25, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> I remember my first folding girlfriend. Blowed my mind.



Ya need to tell her how it is done...and where.

Harry K


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## Preston (Feb 25, 2012)

old cookie said:


> A guy i knew got killed today.Dont know much about it just that he was felling a tree. Man it just makes me stop and think this aint no game be careful and think about what you are doing all the time. we all wont to come home at night.



Yeah that's the thing. Try to ask questions on what's right and wrong and you get some crap from the upper balcony telling the lower underlings what idiots they are. Damn the left coast sure has some "smart" tree trimmers. Tree cutting is a dangerous undertaking for sure. I've got 3 trees here I need to get down but I'm terrified of um. So they're still standing, at an angle.


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## RandyMac (Feb 25, 2012)

Preston said:


> Yeah that's the thing. Try to ask questions on what's right and wrong and you get some crap from the upper balcony telling the lower underlings what idiots they are. Damn the left coast sure has some "smart" tree trimmers. Tree cutting is a dangerous undertaking for sure. I've got 3 trees here I need to get down but I'm terrified of um. So they're still standing, at an angle.



If you want advice from those who have felled trees for a living, you can leave off with the Left Coast "tree trimmer" crap.


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## Nuzzy (Feb 25, 2012)

Preston said:


> Yeah that's the thing. Try to ask questions on what's right and wrong and you get some crap from the upper balcony telling the lower underlings what idiots they are. Damn the left coast sure has some "smart" tree trimmers. Tree cutting is a dangerous undertaking for sure. I've got 3 trees here I need to get down but I'm terrified of um. So they're still standing, at an angle.





There's nothing wrong with asking questions, as long as you're not throwing jabs and insults to the people you want to be answering them.

As Harry said (maybe in the other other thread), the fact that you've been cutting as long as you have without face cuts and not producing danger trees, without realizing something was wrong is truly amazing. Seriously.

I highly suggest you obtain the book I posted in your other thread (Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent). It will give you a strong understanding of the cuts required to get trees safely on the ground. You'll learn the importance of different style faces and the modifications you can make; you'll learn the effects of holding wood and how to manipulate it for leaning trees; you'll learn some different ways to back cut including proper wedging. Sure, it has some stuff you or I will never use, but having an understanding of the different techniques out there is invaluable.


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## Preston (Feb 25, 2012)

I have that one coming. Thanks for the advice.

When I posted the question and told of what I did, I received few a answers of how to cure my problem, but seem to get a number of digs of just how stupid I was. Well, ignorance is bliss and I was there and I know it now. How I survived I really don't know. I didn't post about what happened to me to get slammed by the "know it alls". Just show folks how dumb and ignorant one can be. Then some ass said I was a "troll". When I ask a question and receive an answer I am very appreciative and grateful. Like you have done, I thank you. When someone throw bards and daggers I don't catch those to keep. I throw them back, so if the gentlemen in the NW care to help, I do need it. If they just like to piddle and play, keep it to themselves. I don't play that with that mess.


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## forestryworks (Feb 25, 2012)

Nuzzy said:


> Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent



Preston, while that is a good book and you should get it, I feel that Jerry Beranek's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" should be read first; and thoroughly.

Dent's book is good, but it should come in the next step of learning about falling, in my opinion.

Beranek's book is a great, simple, easy to read introduction.


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## Gologit (Feb 25, 2012)

*Hey Preston*



Preston said:


> I have that one coming. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> When I posted the question and told of what I did, I received few a answers of how to cure my problem, but seem to get a number of digs of just how stupid I was. Well, ignorance is bliss and I was there and I know it now. How I survived I really don't know. I didn't post about what happened to me to get slammed by the "know it alls". Just show folks how dumb and ignorant one can be. Then some ass said I was a "troll". When I ask a question and receive an answer I am very appreciative and grateful. Like you have done, I thank you. When someone throw bards and daggers I don't catch those to keep. I throw them back, so if the gentlemen in the NW care to help, I do need it. If they just like to piddle and play, keep it to themselves. I don't play that with that mess.



If you want to learn some things this is a good place to be. Both of the books mentioned will give you some insight on how to get started. Just remember, the trees don't read the books. The books are just a guideline and, as good as they both are, especially Beranek's, they can't teach you everything you need to know.

If you have questions we'll try to answer them. Sometimes our advice is blunt and to the point...we don't spend a lot of time figuring out how to talk pretty. If our answers to your questions make you uncomfortable or hurt your feelings that's too bad...the advice is still good and still relevant. Take it or not, your choice entirely.

Most of us who work in the woods have had friends and relatives severely injured or killed doing the same things that you've been asking about. When somebody posts something that we think is stupid or dangerous we tend to respond quickly and to the point. It may not always be the most polite way but we want to get our point across before we have to read about you in the Accident and Fatalities thread.

So, stick around, ask questions, learn some good stuff. If you don't listen the only person who loses is you.


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## 4seasons (Feb 25, 2012)

Sure seems to be a lot of poo flinging going on in this thread. If we step back and think about it for a minute I think we can all agree that we are talking about doing one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet in the safest manner possible. Any idiot can walk into a store, buy a chainsaw and start hacking into his own trees with no knowledge or training. But there are many ways to be safer and we can all learn something new and useful if we can have a civilized discussion. Note that I said safer, not safe, because you can never be completely safe when using one of the most dangerous tools man has ever made and working at the base of something that stands 50+ feet over your head while you try to put it on the ground. Even someone who is using what we would think the perfect technique to fell the tree can get into trouble from something unforeseen. Dead limbs overhead things imbedded in the stump and hollow trunks can all hurt you in a hurry all without you even knowing they are there. Even though I was taught by my dad lots of good things about how to operate a saw, I learn new and better things here all the time. Sometimes I wonder how my dad or myself weren't seriously hurt from doing some of the things that the average chainsaw wielding homeowner has done. I have also seen some "professionals" on the job doing some darn stupid things that anyone with half a brain would know is wrong. I think as a community we here at AS have a way of bringing some of these so called "professionals" to light as the true frauds that they are. But the nature of online forums we tend to be a bit more rude than we would if it were face to face dealings. Please guys remember that there are people behind those post and most are just here to learn and be entertained not berated by some online know-it-all.


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## turnkey4099 (Feb 25, 2012)

Preston said:


> I have that one coming. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> When I posted the question and told of what I did, I received few a answers of how to cure my problem, but seem to get a number of digs of just how stupid I was. Well, ignorance is bliss and I was there and I know it now. How I survived I really don't know. I didn't post about what happened to me to get slammed by the "know it alls". Just show folks how dumb and ignorant one can be. Then some ass said I was a "troll". When I ask a question and receive an answer I am very appreciative and grateful. Like you have done, I thank you. When someone throw bards and daggers I don't catch those to keep. I throw them back, so if the gentlemen in the NW care to help, I do need it. If they just like to piddle and play, keep it to themselves. I don't play that with that mess.



To throw a bit of oil on the waters. The reason you got landed on so hard was your reporting that you never used a face cut and had been cutting for a long time. Obviously you were either a troll or hadn't bothered to learn, or even attempt to learn about falling in all those years. I myself thought "Troll" when I read your first post.

Harry K


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## lumberjack48 (Feb 25, 2012)

Preston, i fell about a million trees in the 30 yrs i logged. My grandfather was a logger and my father was a logger. How can i say this, i was over experienced, i was very care full, but i would catch my self taking risks, not taking that extra step, putting production ahead of safety.
Back in 1989 i went to work against all my rules. There was a 30 mile an hour wind which put the temp at -57, yes it was cold. I new better on this one tree, but i didn't take the wind and the cold into consternation. The tree fell on me, broke my neck, the wife had to spoon feed me for a year. I've been in the chair for 23 yrs now.

If your falling trees with out a face cut, Preston i can't even grab hold of this, what are you doing. I'm sorry but if you don't know any better then this you shouldn't be falling trees on till you get some hands on lessons. Like what was said earlier we don't want to be reading about you, Please be care full.


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## Nuzzy (Feb 25, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Preston, while that is a good book and you should get it, I feel that Jerry Beranek's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" should be read first; and thoroughly.
> 
> Dent's book is good, but it should come in the next step of learning about falling, in my opinion.
> 
> Beranek's book is a great, simple, easy to read introduction.




The only issue I can find with Beranek's book is that it can look daunting to tackle due to the size of it. Of course much of that space is dedicated to rigging and all sorts of other stuff, not just felling, but it still looks huge. Dent's is almost like a quick reading pocket guide; IMHO, it's also more fully illustrated for us visual learners. Obviously your mileage may vary.

Either way, both are great to read! And of course, Gologit is speaking truth in saying at the tree experience is paramount.


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## Guido Salvage (Feb 25, 2012)

zogger said:


> the stump








What size bar were you using? Not to be critical, but looks like you were all over the map on your cuts.


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## RandyMac (Feb 25, 2012)

Humboldt cut. Used when a flush butt is needed, it saves board feet. This style will push the trunk clear of the stump. If done properly, it will prevent the dreaded stump or fiber pull that cause deductible defect.









Open face or conventional cut. The snipe insures that the trunk will leave the stump and can be offset to roll the trunk away from obstructions in the lay, close to the stump.









The block cut, used mostly in the bigger timber, useful for controlling how the tree falls, not just a directional cut.


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## paccity (Feb 25, 2012)

randy, don't you wish you had that mac in the humbolt pic #2. and yes thats how it's done. thank's randy for posting them.


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## RandyMac (Feb 25, 2012)

paccity said:


> randy, don't you wish you had that mac in the humbolt pic #2. and yes thats how it's done. thank's randy for posting them.



Yeah Fraz, that 850 cut some wood.






















I have enough parts to put two together, one will be nearly NOS and configured to my specs. I bought it to be a limbing saw, it made one hell of a falling saw.


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## NCPABill (Feb 25, 2012)

*Dingeryote*



dingeryote said:


> ....whata dweeb.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



Dweeb - I haven't heard that name in years. Thanks for reviving it! Rep your way.

Bill


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## darkbyrd (Feb 25, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Humboldt cut. Used when a flush butt is needed, it saves board feet. This style will push the trunk clear of the stump. If done properly, it will prevent the dreaded stump or fiber pull that cause deductible defect...



Much bigger trees than I'll ever deal with, but thanks for the info! Awesome pics!


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## jropo (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks RandyMac for posting your pic's.:msp_thumbup:


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## RandyMac (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks guys. 
Remember that each tree is different and some have issues that need special attention. The one cut that does it all, does not exist. Give the tree some study, run through your mind (if any) what you want it to do, picture the fulcrum point, do a protractor kinda thing to get the angles, cut accordingly.


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## zogger (Feb 26, 2012)

Guido Salvage said:


> What size bar were you using? Not to be critical, but looks like you were all over the map on your cuts.



I was using a 20 and yes all over the map. Perfectly fine, I posted this precisely to be criticized and for otherr guys help once that happens. We are all trying to learn to be better and safer cutters. 

I changed my mind on the line a little, because of where I wanted to be for my escape route on the final back cut, and I still wasn't sure of my angles, so I adjusted. Nothing was going to match up well, my eyeballs were off that day. . Stepped back to look at it and readjusted a little. 

I failed to leave a holding strip of any kind with that, when I should have. I did use a wedge though, but in the back, which made the potential for an early break worse I think.worse. I didn't like that cut, but once committed I wasn't going to leave it half cut.

When those leaners break, man, a lot of force there gets released. I *was* uphill at an angle moving fast when it broke though. Got to a creak noise, that's it, I vamoosed. 

I sure would like a do over on that one, But oh well, on the ground, I ain't broken, saw ain't broken, and it fell where it needed to go. Like I said, I give myself a D+ on that. An E would be a chair, an F and I wouldn't be posting very much.... I just posted it up because it fit in the thread and avoiding chairs is a good idea.


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## Cedarkerf (Feb 26, 2012)

darkbyrd said:


> Much bigger trees than I'll ever deal with, but thanks for the info! Awesome pics!





RandyMac said:


> Humboldt cut. Used when a flush butt is needed, it saves board feet. This style will push the trunk clear of the stump. If done properly, it will prevent the dreaded stump or fiber pull that cause deductible defect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Randys one of the guys that gets called a left coast limber as you can see by his pics he has the know how to back it up as does "Bob" Gologit. I know Randy and Bob both (in real life not just behind the key board)and can say they are the real deal as compared to some people that call em posers who have never posted a thing to support their big mouth.
They are plain spoken and dont dance around to make you feel good read their posts and pay close attention.


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## Preston (Feb 27, 2012)

Now would the post above be called putting a little bit kindling on a fire that's just about out? :msp_unsure:

Nobody I don't think ever said Randy and his crowd didn't know what they were doing. Shoot, a lot of doctors know what they're doing but their bedside manner can certainly run off the patient. I think all anybody would expect of him or any of the rest is to describe the right way to work and leave his other personal digs in his keyboard. An believe me, I know a 20" tree can kill you just as dead as a 48" tree. A larger tree cut don't make you better, it's just what you have to work with in your area. No?

But for me, I'm learning quite a bit from some very helpful folks. I'm even learning from Randy, I just learned to not talk to him. Just watch what he does and "shut up". :msp_smile: Right?


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## sawinredneck (Feb 27, 2012)

I don't think Randy doesn't want you to talk to him, just show a little humility if you are asking for help. You have kind of come in here like a bull in a china shop.
I've done my share of falling, and plan to do more, but I certainly don't classify myself as a "pro"! I also don't know that I'd tackle some of the tree's that have been pictured.


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## Preston (Feb 27, 2012)

Well that's my mistake then. I never thought telling of my screw ups was being a "bull in a china shop". That was not intended cuz I am the one screwing up. How in the world could I take that attitude.

Live and learn for sure.

Thanks.


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## mtfallsmikey (Feb 27, 2012)

Iska3 said:


> In all my years, I've never had this happen to me but it sure gives a person food for thought. Great reminder... Thanks for posting the clip.
> 
> Rep sent



Ditto... I asked for a vid like this over in the Brad-falling-a-tree thread


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## lumberjack48 (Feb 27, 2012)

From a ole Timber Feller, Preston you''ll make a good tree feller, take your time, don't second quse yourself, and always stay on the high side of a tree. It gets in your blood, falling trees right where you want them, it gets to be a self contest.


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## RandyMac (Feb 27, 2012)

Preston said:


> Now would the post above be called putting a little bit kindling on a fire that's just about out? :msp_unsure:
> 
> Nobody I don't think ever said Randy and his crowd didn't know what they were doing. Shoot, a lot of doctors know what they're doing but their bedside manner can certainly run off the patient. I think all anybody would expect of him or any of the rest is to describe the right way to work and leave his other personal digs in his keyboard. An believe me, I know a 20" tree can kill you just as dead as a 48" tree. A larger tree cut don't make you better, it's just what you have to work with in your area. No?
> 
> But for me, I'm learning quite a bit from some very helpful folks. I'm even learning from Randy, I just learned to not talk to him. Just watch what he does and "shut up". :msp_smile: Right?



Other than reminding you to watch what you say about Left Coast fallers, I didn't direct anything to you.
Now that you brought it up, we have your first post in this thread.



Preston said:


> And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?



Oh please, the mention of "Old Growth", along with your technique, used every day to near perfection, you gotta admit, it comes off as an unprepared wanabe logging story.


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## blacklocst (Feb 27, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Humboldt cut. Used when a flush butt is needed, it saves board feet. This style will push the trunk clear of the stump. If done properly, it will prevent the dreaded stump or fiber pull that cause deductible defect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Randy how did you cut the vertical notch in the block cut, did you plunge it?


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## RandyMac (Feb 27, 2012)

blacklocst said:


> Randy how did you cut the vertical notch in the block cut, did you plunge it?



Yep, plunge cuts, bust it out in chunks, did the same on this tree.


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## Hddnis (Feb 27, 2012)

Preston said:


> Well that's my mistake then. I never thought telling of my screw ups was being a "bull in a china shop". That was not intended cuz I am the one screwing up. How in the world could I take that attitude.
> 
> Live and learn for sure.
> 
> Thanks.






In reading your posts I couldn't tell if you were bragging about doing it wrong or what exactly the point was. 

If you really want to learn that's great, you'll find plenty here. But if you get your back up because someone didn't talk nice to you, well, frankly you can't learn. I'm hard headed and stubborn with the worst of them, I don't like people telling me I messed up and I like even less when they try to school me. But what you described really is a wonder, don't see how one guy could be that lucky. Others are thinking the same thing and they want you to admit it, because that is the first step to never making the same mistakes.





Mr. HE


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## Preston (Feb 28, 2012)

Oh mercy, I agree. After reading all I have on here I just wondered how in the world I survived. Really. I cut that way and didn't get killed or even hurt. If anybody thinks I'm bragging about surviving against all sensible odds, not so. I'm grateful to the Lord Almighty. He saw fit to protect a fool. I was asking how I did what I did and made it work? The old growth pine here are few to be found, but what's left is mostly in the 30 inch size. We used to have Long Leaf pine in the 40" size, no more. After WW I most of our trees were cut and shipped to Japan for their housing. Of course we use some for ourselves. But nothing like what Randy's show in that picture. Nothing but 300 years white oak grow here that size.

Bragging is something I don't do. Never have and never will. No place in my life for that stuff. If I was really this stupid do you think I would stick my chest out to be used as a pin cushion? No way.


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## mtfallsmikey (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, keep the info/pics coming. Never too old or too dumb to learn something new.


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## Gologit (Feb 28, 2012)

Preston said:


> Oh mercy, I agree. After reading all I have on here I just wondered how in the world I survived. Really. I cut that way and didn't get killed or even hurt. If anybody thinks I'm bragging about surviving against all sensible odds, not so. I'm grateful to the Lord Almighty. He saw fit to protect a fool. I was asking how I did what I did and made it work? The old growth pine here are few to be found, but what's left is mostly in the 30 inch size. We used to have Long Leaf pine in the 40" size, no more. After WW I most of our trees were cut and shipped to Japan for their housing. Of course we use some for ourselves. But nothing like what Randy's show in that picture. Nothing but 300 years white oak grow here that size.
> 
> Bragging is something I don't do. Never have and never will. No place in my life for that stuff. If I was really this stupid do you think I would stick my chest out to be used as a pin cushion? No way.



 Stick around, Preston. We'll show you so many fancy cuts that you'll take all day just trying to figure out which ones to use. After you get the basics like Humboldt, Humboldt with a snipe, box face, and conventional we'll start you in on Sis-wheels, soft dutchmans, tapered hinges, side notching, springboards, wedging, jacking, and maybe even bore cutting.

How many trees do you have?


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## Preston (Feb 28, 2012)

14 acres to work on. 

Ok now, I have one I need down now to give my garden more sunlight. My problem with this one is it's a white oak with about a 30 inch base. It goes up about 20 feet and splits off in two directions. The main trunk seem to go pretty much straight up but a tad of a lean. The other one is smaller and more of a lean to opposite direction. I have a clearing where the garden is I need to drop it but neither lean is pointed in that direction. Will a face cut and a back side wedge move it in the right direction? What I don't want is this tree taking down others I don't want broken, so the clearing is really where it's needs to go.

What's got me afraid of this one is one I cut like this before. By the time I got the saw to a point on the back cut to clear the wedge the tree pinched back and the wedge could not be driven in. Believe it or not, well with me you probably will, the only thing that saved me was a big gust of wind that moved it enough to place the wedge and get the saw out. Then with an 8 lb sledge I got it on down. I think back on trees I've cut down without the face cut and almost break out in a sweat. For some reason pine was never much of a problem with me, but hardwoods seem to think all by themselves. :msp_smile:

With those face cuts you named off, do what!:msp_confused:


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## zogger (Feb 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Stick around, Preston. We'll show you so many fancy cuts that you'll take all day just trying to figure out which ones to use. After you get the basics like Humboldt, Humboldt with a snipe, box face, and conventional we'll start you in on Sis-wheels, soft dutchmans, tapered hinges, side notching, springboards, wedging, jacking, and maybe even bore cutting.
> 
> How many trees do you have?



Georgia...has a LOT of trees. I just looked, 581 registered logging companies and who knows how many part timers/side job/firewood guys/farmers who do some clearing, etc there are. This is the largest state this side of ole big mud, and has tons of trees, beaucoup. You fly into hartsfield and look down and it's freeking green right up to downtown Atlanta. It's a fairly big industry here and has been for a long time, but most of it is mechanized now. Back in the old days they near destroyed the state with overlogging. Very little virgin old growth left, but since then and having better practices it has rebound and will keep getting better. 

New Georgia Encyclopedia: Forest Removal in the Georgia Mountains

And you still see CCC forest all over. 




The east coast used to have some really large timber, it just got mostly cut off. There just hasn't been enough centuries to regrow it back yet. I've been in an old cedar forest in michigan in a park (won a state wide essay contest back in grade school, free week at a camp prize) that is medium awesome for the sheer scale of the trees. 


Our deciduous trees tend to be shorter than your west coast trees (well, duh), but very broad with heavy spreading limbs. There's some bonafide monsters here still. Like I have said, I have pulled *five* cords now just from the upper narrower limbs off the oak in my front yard that the bucket truck guys dropped. Two hundred years ago I bet the trees were twice as big. The bulk of the tree in my yard is still there. And this isn't the largest tree around here, although it is one of the largest. I know of one not far from here that is a blowdown now, some sort of oak, that makes this one look like 10 year old sapling. 

And it's basically the same as you work your way up the Appalachians or straight north on up through Michigan. State after state. Very diverse forests for the most part, pockets here and there of bonafide big trees, and zillions of acres of smaller but still commercially viable trees. A lot on public forest land, a lot still held privately by individuals or companies. 

Georgia Pacific wood has built a lot of homes around the US, and is pretty diverse in cellulose based products now....

Georgia-Pacific - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hddnis (Feb 28, 2012)

Preston said:


> 14 acres to work on.
> 
> Ok now, I have one I need down now to give my garden more sunlight. My problem with this one is it's a white oak with about a 30 inch base. It goes up about 20 feet and splits off in two directions. The main trunk seem to go pretty much straight up but a tad of a lean. The other one is smaller and more of a lean to opposite direction. I have a clearing where the garden is I need to drop it but neither lean is pointed in that direction. Will a face cut and a back side wedge move it in the right direction? What I don't want is this tree taking down others I don't want broken, so the clearing is really where it's needs to go.
> 
> ...





Some of them really aren't even a face cut, but more of a cut system that works together between face and back cuts. If you search youtube there are some good videos. You'll have to watch some of them several times to really figure out what is being done.

I've curious if you're using plastic falling wedges? Even if the tree sets back you should be able to get one started, although I've had some that were plenty difficult to start. If it happens again try starting a wedge right next to your bar, then a second one next to it. Some trees you'll just end up with a line of wedges sticking out of the back cut to get enough lift. That would indicate a lot of pressue on the back side and I'd be wanting a really strong hinge and be watching that tree really close at that point. I'd be sweating too.

Don't feel bad about being saved by a gust of wind either, God was smiling on you that day. I've used wind gusts to replace wedges and drop trees against the lean before. I'm not saying to make a practice of it, but sometimes in the right situation it saves work without adding risk. 



Mr. HE


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## jropo (Feb 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Stick around, Preston. We'll show you so many fancy cuts that you'll take all day just trying to figure out which ones to use. After you get the basics like Humboldt, Humboldt with a snipe, box face, and conventional we'll start you in on Sis-wheels, soft dutchmans, tapered hinges, side notching, springboards, wedging, jacking, and maybe even bore cutting.
> 
> How many trees do you have?



:msp_confused:opcorn: Enter the I have my pen and paper smilie here.



zogger said:


> Georgia...has a LOT of trees. I just looked, 581 registered logging companies and who knows how many part timers/side job/firewood guys/farmers who do some clearing, etc there are. This is the largest state this side of ole big mud, and has tons of trees, beaucoup. You fly into hartsfield and look down and it's freeking green right up to downtown Atlanta. It's a fairly big industry here and has been for a long time, but most of it is mechanized now. Back in the old days they near destroyed the state with overlogging. Very little virgin old growth left, but since then and having better practices it has rebound and will keep getting better.
> 
> New Georgia Encyclopedia: Forest Removal in the Georgia Mountains
> 
> ...




View attachment 226566

View attachment 226565

View attachment 226567

Yup, we did have some nice trees here from what I understand.
Not to step on anyones toes but, at one time there was more BF that came out of Mi. than PNW.
They clear cut this state and moved on west.
The only thing that comes to mind as far as Old Growth forrest around here is Hartwick Pines, and them don't even seem that big it was just an area that was left untouched, but still nice to see, its all we have, that I know of.

Hartwick Pines State Park

If its big and Old there's a reason!!!!!
I have heared that the U.P. still has some nice ones.


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## kodiak (Feb 28, 2012)

Preston said:


> ... The main trunk seem to go pretty much straight up but a tad of a lean. The other one is smaller and more of a lean to opposite direction. I have a clearing where the garden is I need to drop it but neither lean is pointed in that direction. Will a face cut and a back side wedge move it in the right direction? What I don't want is this tree taking down others I don't want broken, so the clearing is really where it's needs to go....



It's hard to give you an exact recipe for success. However, it appears that you have the time to take extra measures if needed. If it was me (and I've got time), I'd be getting out my 100' cable and snatch block to use in conjunction with the wedges


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## zogger (Feb 28, 2012)

jropo said:


> :msp_confused:opcorn: Enter the I have my pen and paper smilie here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The ones I remember where in the manistee forest. There were near a canoe camp, you had to canoe..I forget, several miles up the river to get to the camp. Took a long time. All I remember is huge whoppers, it was like perpetual dusk at high noon under the canopy wayyy overhead. Zee-ro undergrowth, the leaf litter layer on the ground was like two feet deep before you hit real dirt. I remember just kneeling down and digging with my hands because I wasn't believing it, how deep it was. That stretch of huge trees wasn't a real big area, but the rangers/counselors made a point of taking us over there to check it out. I was told it was a climax forest, that's all I remember.

Now I was a kid and going on my memory now, JFK was still kicking. In fact, that was the summer before that november when he ceased kicking.

Who knows, maybe they are gone now.


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## jropo (Feb 28, 2012)

zogger said:


> The ones I remember where in the manistee forest. There were near a canoe camp, you had to canoe..I forget, several miles up the river to get to the camp. Took a long time. All I remember is huge whoppers, it was like perpetual dusk at high noon under the canopy wayyy overhead. Zee-ro undergrowth, the leaf litter layer on the ground was like two feet deep before you hit real dirt. I remember just kneeling down and digging with my hands because I wasn't believing it, how deep it was. That stretch of huge trees wasn't a real big area, but the rangers/counselors made a point of taking us over there to check it out. I was told it was a climax forest, that's all I remember.
> 
> Now I was a kid and going on my memory now, JFK was still kicking. In fact, that was the summer before that november when he ceased kicking.
> 
> Who knows, maybe they are gone now.



Sounds cool!!
I'd be surprised if they are still there.


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## branchbuzzer (Feb 28, 2012)

Linville Gorge is one of the few places in the east that has old growth. It's a trek to get down into the bottom, but worth it to see. One of the nicest areas in the S. Appy's IMO.


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## Preston (Feb 28, 2012)

kodiak said:


> It's hard to give you an exact recipe for success. However, it appears that you have the time to take extra measures if needed. If it was me (and I've got time), I'd be getting out my 100' cable and snatch block to use in conjunction with the wedges



That's what I was thinking about too. I have 6 steel wedges. One of those is the one I couldn't get started in the white oak. 

Would you trust a 1 inch grass rope. I have 600 feet of that. I got from an elevator co on a highrise I was working on. They use it for hauling car rails up the shaft.


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## Dale (Feb 28, 2012)

RandyMac, impressive pics. I'd send you one of thos rep hickey-ma-doodles if I knew how.  Something tells me by the pic quality, and logger "style" that those pics were a bit more than a couple years ago. :cool2:


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## Gologit (Feb 28, 2012)

Preston said:


> That's what I was thinking about too. I have 6 steel wedges. One of those is the one I couldn't get started in the white oak.
> 
> Would you trust a 1 inch grass rope. I have 600 feet of that. I got from an elevator co on a highrise I was working on. They use it for hauling car rails up the shaft.



Steel wedges are to split with, plastic wedges work better for falling. Steel wedges are usually sloped wrong for falling and if you nick one while you're cutting your chain is usually toast. 

Grass rope? How old? I'd trust cable or a synthetic line over grass rope. It would be a bad deal if that old rope broke on you when you had tension on it and you lost the tree besides.

I can't really tell you anything definite about falling the tree unless you post some pictures of it. Beware of those that think they can.  

If the tree is a heavy leaner or branch heavy on one side there's only a certain amount that cuts and wedges will swing. For now, why not concentrate on the plainer cuts and drop it with the lean?

Post some pictures when you get a chance.


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## KiwiBro (Feb 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Steel wedges are to split with, plastic wedges work better for falling. Steel wedges are usually sloped wrong for falling and if you nick one while you're cutting your chain is usually toast.


For what it's worth, I use both. It's probably because I haven't learned to use plastic wedges correctly, but there's something I find almost primal and deeply satisfying about beating on steel at the base of a big tree.


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## sawinredneck (Feb 28, 2012)

OK Preston, you getting into the groove now!
About five years ago I was taking down a 31" Hedge. I don't know how much you know about the species, but hard as a rock, normally codoms twisted together in many manner that large. Nasty stuff! This tree was particularly bad, you could see the gaps where the trees had twisted together as it grew and I was worried about it barber chairing on me. So being the ingenious fellow I am, I made my face cut, then started a sloping back cut down to match my face. The sloping back cut would keep it from chairing on me, so I had in my head. Well, a bad idea got executed worse! I missed lining up the back cut, I was way low! Lots of wedges, lots of stacking and a lot more beating, I got it to go over. But as it went it shot off the stump back at me! I was unhurt, but it shook me up good and I learned that the sloping back cut didn't help prevent barber chair.
I've had plenty of screw ups myself, been lucky many times! Had to "fence post" a 24" Oak once, scariest damn thing I've ever done! I missed my face and dropped it into another tree. I've learned to be more precise!
I've done more dumb #### than I can even recall, much less want to recall! My point being this is dangerous stuff, even if you do everything right, by the book, as it was explained etc., at the end of the day, that tree is going to do what that tree wants to! There is always going to be something you didn't foresee or expect. Head winds, tail winds, twist from weight on one side or the other.
No one cut is best, no one cut is a cure all. I use a 90 deg open face as much as I can anymore, because it's easy and with my broken back I have to make things as easy as I can. I've also been doing something that's going to bite me in the ass one day soon, I've been making the back cut even with the bottom of my face. It's not right, but puts wood on the trailer fast, keeps the stumps low for my skidsteer and I don't trip over them! I've got to change that method and I know it, but I just love that damn smooth low stump! We all do dumb things, and we all get into patterns we like, but we have to remember there are more tools in the tool box and sometimes we all need to pull our heads out of our butts!


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## RandyMac (Feb 28, 2012)




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## Preston (Feb 28, 2012)

sawinredneck said:


> OK Preston, you getting into the groove now!
> About five years ago I was taking down a 31" Hedge. I don't know how much you know about the species, but hard as a rock, normally codoms twisted together in many manner that large. Nasty stuff! This tree was particularly bad, you could see the gaps where the trees had twisted together as it grew and I was worried about it barber chairing on me. So being the ingenious fellow I am, I made my face cut, then started a sloping back cut down to match my face. The sloping back cut would keep it from chairing on me, so I had in my head. Well, a bad idea got executed worse! I missed lining up the back cut, I was way low! Lots of wedges, lots of stacking and a lot more beating, I got it to go over. But as it went it shot off the stump back at me! I was unhurt, but it shook me up good and I learned that the sloping back cut didn't help prevent barber chair.
> I've had plenty of screw ups myself, been lucky many times! Had to "fence post" a 24" Oak once, scariest damn thing I've ever done! I missed my face and dropped it into another tree. I've learned to be more precise!
> I've done more dumb #### than I can even recall, much less want to recall! My point being this is dangerous stuff, even if you do everything right, by the book, as it was explained etc., at the end of the day, that tree is going to do what that tree wants to! There is always going to be something you didn't foresee or expect. Head winds, tail winds, twist from weight on one side or the other.
> No one cut is best, no one cut is a cure all. I use a 90 deg open face as much as I can anymore, because it's easy and with my broken back I have to make things as easy as I can. I've also been doing something that's going to bite me in the ass one day soon, I've been making the back cut even with the bottom of my face. It's not right, but puts wood on the trailer fast, keeps the stumps low for my skidsteer and I don't trip over them! I've got to change that method and I know it, but I just love that damn smooth low stump! We all do dumb things, and we all get into patterns we like, but we have to remember there are more tools in the tool box and sometimes we all need to pull our heads out of our butts!



Thanks........now I don't feel so bad for doing dumb stuff. But I'm headed to 70 so I got an excuse. Thanks a lot for the heads up too. :help:


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## zogger (Feb 28, 2012)

KiwiBro said:


> For what it's worth, I use both. It's probably because I haven't learned to use plastic wedges correctly, but there's something I find almost primal and deeply satisfying about beating on steel at the base of a big tree.



I use wood, steel and plastic. I've been using just hardwood home made wedges for decades. then I started using old axe and maul heads, yard sale stuff. You can really wallop on them things. (only for larger trees, which I have done *some* but not many) I just last year bought my first plastic wedge. Ya they work but many dollars for 25 cents plastic is rather annoying. I'm going to buy some more but it still annoys me. Seems like 25 cent plastic..at a buck they would be fair priced. Must be because they are a niche item, so guys just pay it. They want something they can use and know they won't hurt the chain.

Various felling cuts and techniques and what not..I for sure have never ever seen any offering for training/schools/seminars/hands on, etc, except get a saw and go cut wood. I never ever saw even a chainsaw manual with a few ratty drawings in it until a few years ago. And I have seen other guys using as much sloping cuts as flat looking cuts, never seemed to be any big deal one way or the other the way it was being done. I remember asking a long long time ago, why the flat cuts on the big trees, guys told me they got a better price for the logs, etc..absolutely no mention of safety in felling or anything like that. I actually thought it was more dangerous that way, the flat cuts all around, but they just wanted the money!

In other words, ignorance is no excuse, but if that is all you have ever seen, who's to know different? You are ignorant of being ignorant! I sure didn't. I am about 99% just self taught, starting with handsaws and axes then getting into chainsaws. Yep, watched older guys cut and worked with them, still saw sloping backcuts on some trees. 

*shrugs* glad I finally can find out some better ways to do things.

I bingoed to a tug line years ago, a lot of mine I will throw a line and a comelaong on them..who knows..this might be wrong as well. Working by yourself...uhh...that's wrong too.


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## woodlot30 (Mar 19, 2012)

After reading this thread I came across this tree. It was what you would call a heavy leaner! I don't use a bore cut very often but did on this one!













View attachment 229733

View attachment 229734

View attachment 229735


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## woodlot30 (Mar 19, 2012)




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## zogger (Mar 19, 2012)

woodlot30 said:


> After reading this thread I came across this tree. It was what you would call a heavy leaner! I don't use a bore cut very often but did on this one!
> 
> View attachment 229733
> 
> ...



That's interesting. Did you wedge that bore cut on both sides before cutting the holding strap on the back cut?


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## hardpan (Mar 19, 2012)

zogger said:


> I use wood, steel and plastic. I've been using just hardwood home made wedges for decades. then I started using old axe and maul heads, yard sale stuff. You can really wallop on them things. (only for larger trees, which I have done *some* but not many) I just last year bought my first plastic wedge. Ya they work but many dollars for 25 cents plastic is rather annoying. I'm going to buy some more but it still annoys me. Seems like 25 cent plastic..at a buck they would be fair priced. Must be because they are a niche item, so guys just pay it. They want something they can use and know they won't hurt the chain.
> 
> Various felling cuts and techniques and what not..I for sure have never ever seen any offering for training/schools/seminars/hands on, etc, except get a saw and go cut wood. I never ever saw even a chainsaw manual with a few ratty drawings in it until a few years ago. And I have seen other guys using as much sloping cuts as flat looking cuts, never seemed to be any big deal one way or the other the way it was being done. I remember asking a long long time ago, why the flat cuts on the big trees, guys told me they got a better price for the logs, etc..absolutely no mention of safety in felling or anything like that. I actually thought it was more dangerous that way, the flat cuts all around, but they just wanted the money!
> 
> ...



"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement". --Will Rogers
Many times the trial and error method includes pain and blood so it is sure nice to have the direction of a few pros. My thanks to them.


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## woodlot30 (Mar 19, 2012)

zogger said:


> That's interesting. Did you wedge that bore cut on both sides before cutting the holding strap on the back cut?



No need. I dropped the tree in the direction of the lean. What would be the purpose of the wedges besides the obvious?


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## RandyMac (Mar 19, 2012)

woodlot30 said:


> No need. I dropped the tree in the direction of the lean. What would be the purpose of the wedges besides the obvious?



That is the GOL one cut does it all type of thing.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 19, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> That is the GOL one cut does it all type of thing.



Question for Randy... Not really relating to this thread, but about how many degrees off centered, "straight", would be considered a "heavy lean"? My knowledge of terminology sucks...


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## RandyMac (Mar 19, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Question for Randy... Not really relating to this thread, but about how many degrees off centered, "straight", would be considered a "heavy lean"? My knowledge of terminology sucks...



In the logging woods, it means that gives you little recourse, you will need to fall it with the lean.
You can shift some heavy leaners with jacks, but if you miscalculate, you might just lift it off the stump and the tree will go where ever it wants. Sawing the back-cut first and beginning the lift is a reasonable option.
For head leaners, a deeper and steeper face-cut is indicated and care taken on the back cut to avoid a noisy event.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 19, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> In the logging woods, it means that gives you little recourse, you will need to fall it with the lean.
> You can shift some heavy leaners with jacks, but if you miscalculate, you might just lift it off the stump and the tree will go where ever it wants. Sawing the back-cut first and beginning the lift is a reasonable option.
> For head leaners, a deeper and steeper face-cut is indicated and care taken on the back cut to avoid a noisy event.



I like that term... "Little Recourse"... Now, by "shift", you would be referring to a few degrees to the left or right of the lean??? If so, how many degrees would be "reasonable", vs how many have you been able to get done without disaster?


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## Preston (Mar 19, 2012)

How would you cut a leaner, post oak, with a rotten spot in the bottom. The bark is missing with a weird growth in an attempt to grow back. You have to go almost 3 1/2 feet to get a round, clean trunk. The tree has to come down but now I've gotten afraid to cut it. If I can swing it about 15 degrees I'll be ok. Otherwise I'll have a busted chicken house. I don't know what to do.


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## Hedgerow (Mar 19, 2012)

Preston said:


> How would you cut a leaner, post oak, with a rotten spot in the bottom. The bark is missing with a weird growth in an attempt to grow back. You have to go almost 3 1/2 feet to get a round, clean trunk. The tree has to come down but now I've gotten afraid to cut it. If I can swing it about 15 degrees I'll be ok. Otherwise I'll have a busted chicken house. I don't know what to do.



Boom truck... Rotten trees suck... :msp_thumbdn:


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## zogger (Mar 19, 2012)

Preston said:


> How would you cut a leaner, post oak, with a rotten spot in the bottom. The bark is missing with a weird growth in an attempt to grow back. You have to go almost 3 1/2 feet to get a round, clean trunk. The tree has to come down but now I've gotten afraid to cut it. If I can swing it about 15 degrees I'll be ok. Otherwise I'll have a busted chicken house. I don't know what to do.



Post a buncha pics.....let the experts give a buncha advice. Most likely first bit will be "hire some actual real professional with ten million in insurance to drop it"

How big is the coop? You could block it up, slip some logs under it and drag it outta the way. Or do you mean an actual like 500 foot long chicken house?

Me, being a dumb farmer, I'd proly throw a heavy line and a comealong on it and pull it over after just a little tiny amount of cutting....or maybe not. I'm getting spooked same as you now.


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## Preston (Mar 19, 2012)

I'll get some pictures.


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## woodlot30 (Mar 20, 2012)

*found another picture*

Looking at the bore cut from the other side of the saw, I almost missed the line coming in a little low. But from looking at the stump, I think it worked out fine.










View attachment 229984

View attachment 229985


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## old cookie (Mar 21, 2012)

I used the triangle cut the other day on a leaner i had .I read about here and it worked really good .thanks for a helpful tip.


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## HorseFaller (Mar 21, 2012)

woodlot30 said:


> Looking at the bore cut from the other side of the saw, I almost missed the line coming in a little low. But from looking at the stump, I think it worked out fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A little hi or low is forgivable, alot you got problems. Still rememberyou dont want to cut through your hinge.(not that you did, just a reminder) It will seal your saw in even on a bore cut. I would be more worried about that kind of dutchman left by opening your top cut up. Keep your corners crisp and all is well. A nice wide face > is great in hardwood. I dont think it would matter with a bore cut. But if closes on one side before the other it could still chair or split. Maybe even spin on the stump causeing other problems. Keep at it bore cuts are my favorite.


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## Sagetown (Mar 22, 2012)

HorseFaller said:


> A little hi or low is forgivable, alot you got problems. Still rememberyou dont want to cut through your hinge.(not that you did, just a reminder) It will seal your saw in even on a bore cut. I would be more worried about that kind of dutchman left by opening your top cut up. Keep your corners crisp and all is well. A nice wide face > is great in hardwood. I dont think it would matter with a bore cut. But if closes on one side before the other it could still chair or split. Maybe even spin on the stump causeing other problems. Keep at it bore cuts are my favorite.



Big Rep sent your way.


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## 1969cj-5 (May 11, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Got any other suggestions??? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hedge! Gonna be tearing into quite a bit of it soon!


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## Hedgerow (May 11, 2012)

1969cj-5 said:


> Hedge! Gonna be tearing into quite a bit of it soon!



It's great fun!!! Where in the state you cutting?


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## 1969cj-5 (May 11, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> It's great fun!!! Where in the state you cutting?



I am up by Whiteman AFB here in Missouri. Little town called Windsor. The land I will be cutting on is 850 acres belonging to an Army Air Corps WWII POW. He likes me because I am his neighbor and Active USAF as well.


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## Hedgerow (May 11, 2012)

1969cj-5 said:


> I am up by Whiteman AFB here in Missouri. Little town called Windsor. The land I will be cutting on is 850 acres belonging to an Army Air Corps WWII POW. He likes me because I am his neighbor and Active USAF as well.



Very good... Be careful of those twisted and bent buggers... Use mechanical assistance where you can...
I like to drop em' most of the way, then jerk em' off the stump with the loader, and drag em' out to where I can work them up from all sides...


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