# Accurately Measuring Tree Height



## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

Hey the guys here have been pretty helpful and I'm hoping maybe someone could help me out again. To make a long story short I might be getting a tree removal job early this Spring. However as a lot of you know from seeing me other places around here I am not insured so I will not take a risky job. This is a very large Oak Tree on about an acre of property and I am almost positive that it is well out of range of the customers property. 

Like many of you have probably already guessed I can not afford to be almost positive. I know of many ways that I can measure the height of a tree from the ground. I know that one of the most popular methods is to use the trees shadow mixed with a number or other factors to estimate. Now my problem with this is how accurate is this estimate? So is there any method out there that is relatively easy to do that will be accurate? Also can you tell me how accurate the method actually is if used correctly? I would estimate by looking that this tree is around 50-60 feet tall and would easily clear all property. I would like to be 100% sure that it is going to miss the house by a fair distance if it were to accidentally start falling that way.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 11, 2014)

Climb to the top, drop a 100ft tape.


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## Pelorus (Mar 11, 2014)

Get a large 45 / 45 / 90 protractor.
Walk away from the tree.
Aim the tip of the longest side (the hypotenuse or some other Greek term) at the top of the tree while keeping the other sides perpendicular and parallel to the ground. Put a little level on the protractor for more accuracy.
Tree may possibly end up within a couple of feet more or less of where you end up. Theoretically.
nb. I have never done this, and got terrible marks in math / trigonometry in school.


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## beastmaster (Mar 11, 2014)

buy a cheap leval with a bubble for 45 on it. sight down it why'll holding it at a 45 to the top of the tree. follow the imagenary line from top to ground , then pace it off to the trunk. you'll have your hight.


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## beastmaster (Mar 11, 2014)

Pelorus said:


> Get a large 45 / 45 / 90 protractor.
> Walk away from the tree.
> Aim the tip of the longest side (the hypotenuse or some other Greek term) at the top of the tree while keeping the other sides perpendicular and parallel to the ground. Put a little level on the protractor for more accuracy.
> Tree may possibly end up within a couple of feet more or less of where you end up. Theoretically.
> nb. I have never done this, and got terrible marks in math / trigonometry in school.



you beat me to it by a few min.


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## ATH (Mar 11, 2014)

I'd say buy a clinometer...but you shouldn't buy anything until you can afford a couple of hundred for insurance... A clinometer is a tool that makes what everybody else has said easier. You measure a set distance from the tree then measure to ghe top...without any more math. The key with any of the methods is make sure you are maesuring the highest part of the tree. that is usually the top center. that is ideally centered over the trunk...so you measure you horizontal distance from the center of the trunk. Howeverf if (as is often the case) the highest point is not over the center of the trunk, you need to set you hoizontal measurement accordingly.


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 11, 2014)

The stick method is quick, accurate and simple. This video shows it better than I can explain.


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## mesupra (Mar 11, 2014)

I also was taught to use the stick trick, it has proven very useful many times. It works great, usually within 1-3 feet, great way to win a net or two as well.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

ATH said:


> I'd say buy a clinometer...but you shouldn't buy anything until you can afford a couple of hundred for insurance... A clinometer is a tool that makes what everybody else has said easier. You measure a set distance from the tree then measure to ghe top...without any more math. The key with any of the methods is make sure you are maesuring the highest part of the tree. that is usually the top center. that is ideally centered over the trunk...so you measure you horizontal distance from the center of the trunk. Howeverf if (as is often the case) the highest point is not over the center of the trunk, you need to set you hoizontal measurement accordingly.



Sorry I should have explained this but we posted over in another forum and here in Charles Town, WV Arborist Insurance is not affordable for a small time guy like my self. My Insurance agent told me that it would cost me roughly $6,000 a year. He said that is if I can even find someone around here to insure me. He said they do things like this to keep "some random Joe" from going out and trying to do what I am doing. He said he was not trying to be offensive but that is the way it was. I have done all my research on the insurance side and there is not hope for me.

There is landscaping insurance which covers very small trees and basically sticks. So I could offer tree trimming but never anything commercial. I am pretty sure the tree or limb has to be under 5" in diameter here. Anything else is considered commercial tree removal.

Like I said I have done very, very well in the past by making sure to not take jobs that are liabilities. I would say I am about 98% sure that despite how large this tree is it can not reach their back porch which is what I am scared of. However I would like to be at least 99.99% sure before I did this. The last thing I need is one of the larger limbs breaking off and gaining a little more distance and landing on their porch or roof and easily putting me out of business forever and having to rebuild whatever damage was done.


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## Hoowasat (Mar 11, 2014)

Hexa - If there is doubt ... and i sense a lot of it in your words ... why not dismantle the tree, drop limbs as you climb, take out its top, and then fell the remainder? It may seem like a lot of extra work, but the peace of mind could be worth it.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

Hoowasat said:


> Hexa - If there is doubt ... and i sense a lot of it in your words ... why not dismantle the tree, drop limbs as you climb, take out its top, and then fell the remainder? It may seem like a lot of extra work, but the peace of mind could be worth it.



Hey Hoowasat and thanks for the reply. I already thought of this and still thinking about it. This tree would be extra tough as considering how high it is the bottom most part is too tall to even begin to start climbing without equipment. I am still thinking about it.


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## Hoowasat (Mar 11, 2014)

You're near my ol' stompin' grounds (Williamsport, MD) and I'd gladly offer to give ya' a hand if I was still up that way. If I had that many doubts over getting it done without damage, and wasn't equipped or able to climb, I would pass on the job. I'm no professional, and I've turned down friends who've asked me to help with jobs that are simply beyond my comfort level. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

Hoowasat said:


> Hexa - If there is doubt ... and i sense a lot of it in your words.


Well there is not a lot of doubt. There is actually very, very little however it is the fact that there is any at all. Because the 0.1% chance that it could fall and damage property is too much for me... That is why I was looking for a way to measure it.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 11, 2014)

There are phone apps that will measure tree heights for you. They act like clinometers and you need to know the horizontal distance to the tree.

Not sure about Iphones but I have one for my android.


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## ATH (Mar 11, 2014)

Find a new insurance man. My liability (if I had just that without auto coverage...) is about 10% of that. When I was starting out years ago, it was a little harder to find things online...so I called all over town (live in a town of about 50,000). Most agents couldn't offer anything. A few came back with huge numbers but I stuck with it. I have Westfield insurance through Huntington insurance. The Hartford advertises they cover arborists. Make more phone calls and do some online searching.

Maybe you already went through this elsewhere...so sorry if I am rehashing something you have already been through.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

ATH said:


> Find a new insurance man. My liability (if I had just that without auto coverage...) is about 10% of that. When I was starting out years ago, it was a little harder to find things online...so I called all over town (live in a town of about 50,000). Most agents couldn't offer anything. A few came back with huge numbers but I stuck with it. I have Westfield insurance through Huntington insurance. The Hartford advertises they cover arborists. Make more phone calls and do some online searching.
> 
> Maybe you already went through this elsewhere...so sorry if I am rehashing something you have already been through.



No, any opinion/advice is advice I appreciate even if it is repeated. Because that just makes the argument for whatever you're saying stronger, simply because there is one, two, or more people saying the same thing. So anyway I appreciate it. I looked into the Hartford and I am pretty sure they were the ones that would only insure a bigger business with 10+ employees in it. Although you are telling me what my insurance agent did. He did advise me to look around and try to find someone. He said that my chances weren't good. You just don't know until you try. Maybe I will make some more phone calls tomorrow.

Just this business has treated me very well in the past and I have done very well by not taking jobs that even made me think for a second "could that reach their shed, house, or anything else worth money?". Because like it was said before I could even sue them if something happened to me just obviously the chances of the worker with no insurance getting sued are much greater.

Like I have said over and over I am over thinking this whole ordeal. Because it is not going to reach their house and I am not even planning on felling it in that direction. It is just the thought of what if 3 feet of that tree does not clear the deck and it causes more damages to their property than I have made in my lifetime of this work? That is where I am coming from and from what a lot of you have to say I am right to be paranoid. 

Thanks for the reply ATH. The few I got told me that was just for liability I am pretty certain... or maybe they told me I needed to be fully covered or something. Anyway I have been told several times to make 100% certain that for what I am doing I get insurance for commercial tree removal. Because there are a lot of programs were people misunderstand what we are doing for work and then that person goes out with a lot more confidence because they are now insured. Then drop a tree on a house and realize they were not actually covered for that sort of work. Either way I will make a few phone calls here soon. As I made a few before and lost hope based on what I had been told.

Another thing I learned is it can be very different based on where you live. For example if you live in New York City your insurance is going to be a retarded number compared to someone like me that has a lot more open space. Because obviously you are prone to do a lot more damage where there is property such as houses, cars, other structures, and especially for bodily harm to a living person.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 11, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> There are phone apps that will measure tree heights for you. They act like clinometers and you need to know the horizontal distance to the tree.
> 
> Not sure about Iphones but I have one for my android.



I have several ways to measure the height of a tree... The problem is I do not know how reliable they are. Because I want to be sure.

So how reliable can I expect something like this will be?


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## beastmaster (Mar 12, 2014)

Hexa Fox said:


> I have several ways to measure the height of a tree... The problem is I do not know how reliable they are. Because I want to be sure.
> 
> So how reliable can I expect something like this will be?



I had several on my iphone, they work pretty good but you still need to know one ,''known" distance. You use how many feet or meters from the trunk your standing and the angle your looking at the top. Those two will give you hight. It as accurate as you are steady.
If your just sweating a few feet, why not just take a small top?
I make a 45 deg. with my thumb and forefinger and sight down it to get a ball park figure.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 12, 2014)

Hexa Fox said:


> I have several ways to measure the height of a tree... The problem is I do not know how reliable they are. Because I want to be sure.
> 
> So how reliable can I expect something like this will be?



The clinometer app is accurate (based on the leveling sensor in the phone). You sight along the edge of the phone. It then becomes an issue of how accurate you measure the distance to the tree and take into account slope, height of your eye above ground etc.

An easier way would be to take the phone and measure a 45* angle to the top of the tree. The tree should land about 5' (depending on how tall you are) past where you are standing. Of course this will depend on how tall you make the stump.

If you are going to be this close, you need to climb the tree and blow out a top.


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 12, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> The stick method is quick, accurate and simple. This video shows it better than I can explain.




Yes! I was just going to go look this up! Nice find.. This video seemed pretty well presented & accurate to his theory.. I haven't been able to try it yet though... ***wishing this snow away isn't working***


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 12, 2014)

jimmycrackcorn said:


> Yes! I was just going to go look this up! Nice find.. This video seemed pretty well presented & accurate to his theory.. I haven't been able to try it yet though... ***wishing this snow away isn't working***


Just watched this actually. However what happens if the surface area around the tree and where I want to make sure it is going (or not going) is not level? For example this tree is at the bottom of a very steep hill. I am going to fell it on flat level ground but if it does fall the wrong direction (towards home) it will be going up an extremely steep hill near the house. I guess I could use the "Stick Trick" on the level part of the ground and then measure how far that distance is. Then carry the measuring tape up the hill and see how close to the house it is.


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 12, 2014)

Hexa Fox said:


> I guess I could use the "Stick Trick" on the level part of the ground and then measure how far that distance is. Then carry the measuring tape up the hill and see how close to the house it is.



Will there ya go.. You answered your own question.. 

What was the issue with climbing & piecing down? What do you mean, to big without equipment?


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 12, 2014)

jimmycrackcorn said:


> Will there ya go.. You answered your own question..
> 
> What was the issue with climbing & piecing down? What do you mean, to big without equipment?



Well the height of the trunk is pretty large. For example I am 5'10" and if I jump beside the tree as high as I can I would not even come close to the first limb. It is all one solid piece until you get pretty high up. So I would need to sort of lasso a rope up around one of these limbs to even start getting in the tree. Basically it would be a huge pain. I have pieced down a few trees before and I am guessing you have as well... my opinion is it is not fun... I will continue to do it when I need to, but in this instance it would definitely be the worst I have ever dealt with.

The ones I did before I just climbed up in them and started sawing with no climbing equipment. I would imagine that for this instance I would have to purchase some climbing equipment and get acquainted with it. Which is not a bad idea I just do not want to start my climbing career (if I ever do) with this particular project. I would rather start out in a smaller tree closer to someones house. One that I know I could handle and would not be dropping any limbs on their house.

My rules are I will not drop or even rope down a limp if it could potentially cause (by dropping) any property damage and I will not go near a project that I think may damage property (felling a large tree). This one is different because I am certain it will not make it to the house. Just there is that tiny curl in my stomach that is telling me to be safe and not screwed in the @$$ later...


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 12, 2014)

So basically I knew that this time would come and need a way to deal with it. This is also a good time for practice on any "tricks" or skills needed to estimate where it will fall. Because I am probably going to find that it is like a massive 50 feet away from the house or something but if I found that it was around 10 feet since I do not a lot of experience with any of these methods I would probably just pass. So if I am ever in doubt again I can measure and know my limits.


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## derwoodii (Mar 12, 2014)

bend down stick your head between your knees and thats 45 degrees 

http://www.rnzih.org.nz/pages/notable5.html


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 12, 2014)

Oh.. My bad man. I thought you had spikes & what not.. Yeah, getting up into a tree with out that type of stuff isn't something I would suggest.. especially swinging a saw around.. Wood is a funny creature, it can do odd things that will jamm u up bad when in the tree. Especially if you aren't tied in when it does, well.. that's not going to be a fun experience. In not preaching here but, no insurance, climbing with no gear?? Phew... Count your blessing man, I think were only allowed so many.

Now without contradicting what I just said, if I was in your shoes & was concerned about where it was going to land, I would climb it without plans to cut (in other words just you, no saw), get a rope in it some how and use a winch of sorts to pull it over. How do you get in it to do so? Use a ladder, a truck or something you can stand on.

Oh wait.. I just re-read something... I'm confused.. Are you saying the first limb is 10ft high & no other limbs until it gets up there? In other words nothing to climb after the first limb until the top?

If it is unclimbable without gear, you could always try one of those sling shots to set a line. Just make sure you wrap the trunk. Shoot it through one side, go grab it & send it back the other way, use a running bowline & cinch it up. 

As far as property damage goes, obviously miss the house.. But your always going to have damage to the turf if your dropping it in full spread on a lawn. Homeowners need to expect that or have it explained before hand.

Regardless of all the above, take it on man, it's the only way you will learn. Definitely get yourself some gear pronto! Maybe just some simple rigging equipment, a saddle & set of spikes. Before you know it you dislike of rigging trees down will be in the past & you'll be able to take more jobs as you won't have to worry about room to lay it out. Eventually you'll laugh at the stuff you thought was risky. 

Honestly though, if you want some good advice on rigging it down or risks involved, take a few pictures of it & post them up. It's hard to comprehend the job without seeing it.


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## Hexa Fox (Mar 12, 2014)

jimmycrackcorn said:


> Oh.. My bad man. I thought you had spikes & what not.. Yeah, getting up into a tree with out that type of stuff isn't something I would suggest.. especially swinging a saw around.. Wood is a funny creature, it can do odd things that will jamm u up bad when in the tree. Especially if you aren't tied in when it does, well.. that's not going to be a fun experience. In not preaching here but, no insurance, climbing with no gear?? Phew... Count your blessing man, I think were only allowed so many.
> 
> Now without contradicting what I just said, if I was in your shoes & was concerned about where it was going to land, I would climb it without plans to cut (in other words just you, no saw), get a rope in it some how and use a winch of sorts to pull it over. How do you get in it to do so? Use a ladder, a truck or something you can stand on.
> 
> ...



I was just thinking the same about the pictures. I guess I could stop by sometime and snap a quick picture or two. About the height climbing stuff you had it right the first time. After I can reach the first limb I guess I would have more movement through it. I will have to try and get a picture of it. I am thinking about waiting to see if she is 100% serious about having it taken out. I know she wants it removed but better make sure before I take it any further.


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## BC WetCoast (Mar 12, 2014)

Do your height measurement where the ground is level from the tree (cross the slope). Once you know the height of the tree, you can then measure that distance up the hill toward the house. 

I get the impression that the house is 90* to where you want to fall it, but you are afraid the tree is going to spin toward the house. If this is the case, then you need to learn about hinges, wedges and rope.

Lots of information on the net describing how to define your hinge, undercuts, back cuts, use of wedges etc.

Best one I know of is the Worksafe BC Falling Manual
http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_1.pdf
http://www.worksafebc.com/publicati.../assets/pdf/bc_faller_training_standard_2.pdf


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 12, 2014)

BC WetCoast said:


> you need to learn about hinges, wedges and rope.
> 
> 
> Best one I know of is the Worksafe BC Falling Manual
> ...



+10 to the gear


I have also found the manual to be petty useful, opens your mind to different techniques that might not be all that common in your area. They have YouTube videos as well.


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## PJM (Mar 13, 2014)

Hexa Fox said:


> Like I said I have done very, very well in the past by making sure to not take jobs that are liabilities.


You're felling trees with a chainsaw.... every job you take is gonna have inherent liability. Play it safe, measure using the stick method and use the Tree Fall Zone (TFZ) or 1.5 x tree height.


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## 68 Buick (Mar 13, 2014)

I have also used the stick method many of times and has shown to be pretty accurate.


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## hardpan (Mar 14, 2014)

If the accuracy or application of your instrument is in question, perhaps you know someone who surveys. A basic transit is much more reliable than the processes mentioned, however I have had good results with the stick trick. Remember when looking to the horizontal point, that is the point on the tree where the cut is made. If you are up hill or down hill you still must sight horizontal/level and add or subtract to adjust to your actual cutting point. Sorry if I made it sound confusing.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 14, 2014)

I am sure all of you guy-es techniques and formulas are really good and work swell though they hurt my brain. I just move around the jobsite, looking and feeling to get an idea of what will fit where. As far as actually knowing the exact height of a tree is to much work to obtain since after a while of doing this work you automatically start knowing heights of the trees just when you walk up to one.

Hey, if you need to get a point from which to judge because you are a newby then go ahead and figure out the formula or get a scope ( which would be cool anyway) but don't get caught out there with a protractor, jeez, what a field day.

100 feet looks and is very high but laying on the ground isn't that long.

Also some people look at 65 feet high and think its 125.


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 14, 2014)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> 100 feet looks and is very high but laying on the ground isn't that long.
> 
> Also some people look at 65 feet high and think its 125.



Very true!



DR. P. Proteus said:


> but don't get caught out there with a protractor, jeez, what a field day.



Hahahaha! Um..Um..Yes... I...I...I believe you have my stapler.. 

Great Scott Marty! 1.21 Gigawatts!!


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## lfnh (Mar 14, 2014)

derwoodii said:


> bend down stick your head between your knees and thats 45 degrees
> 
> http://www.rnzih.org.nz/pages/notable5.html
> 
> View attachment 338853


 
'spect there maybe a multiple lesson plan somewhere

missed the owl feathers first look


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## jimmycrackcorn (Mar 14, 2014)

lfnh said:


> 'spect there maybe a multiple lesson plan somewhere
> 
> missed the owl feathers first look



I was wondering what those were, I thought it was a joke at first & they were bunny ears. Nope, feathers..


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 15, 2014)

So you do tree removal for a living?


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## Hoowasat (Mar 15, 2014)

I use my thumb ...


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## Fireaxman (Mar 16, 2014)

sgreanbeans said:


> So you do tree removal for a living?


Questionably equipped, questionably trained, can't afford insurance. Hope OP isn't one of the reasons arborist insurance is so expensive. I am not throwing stones, Fox, just confirming the need to be very careful. Carefully Climbing, limbing, and topping with proper equipment and skills are the right way to handle a questionable tree. I actually passed an "Arborist" in a subdivision falling a large pine after Gustaf. Just from intuition I did not like his front cut and the height of the tree. I stopped and offered to climb, limb, and top it for him, but he insisted on doing it "His" way. It cost him all his profits for a week of hard work to repair the drive way and a mail box. Yes, a large limb from the pine went all the way through the concrete of the drive way. I have also seen trees "Throw" broken limbs out in front of them as they hit the ground, damaging such things as windows further out than their height. And of course, as you guessed, most of the methods described in this thread depend on a level sighting plane, but also a good field of view. If there is a tall limb or spar on the back side of the tree that you do not see when you use the "Stick Trick", hidden by parallax, it can reach farther than you estimate.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 16, 2014)

Fireaxman said:


> I have also seen trees "Throw" broken limbs out in front of them as they hit the ground, damaging such things as windows further out than their height. If there is a tall limb or spar on the back side of the tree that you do not see when you use the "Stick Trick", hidden by parallax, it can reach farther than you estimate.


 Word.


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## treeseer (Mar 16, 2014)

$6000/year is BS. ~$1000 is average.

Why do the owners want to remove the tree?


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