# Dropping Standing Dead Stuff



## Chris-PA (Sep 23, 2012)

I was cutting with my Dad today up in his woods, and I decided to take down a standing dead red oak. It was about 32" and had no upper story branches at all. I was using my Mac with a 24" bar and my new square ground chain. I marked the cuts with my hatchet (training wheels - I'm trying to improve my cut accuracy), and made a nice face cut - for a change. Then I did the back cut, and got that level for a change. I put in two wedges - the outer inch or so was punky so that made them a little less effective. But the back cut was getting really close, I drove the wedges in further and nothing was happening. Eventually I decided to get the heck out of there, so I ran like a scared kid. Well, I walked off to give it some thought. As my Dad and were looking at it it just went over - fast. Right where I aimed it. My main mistake may have been that the step to the back cut was a little big - more like 3" than the 2" I wanted, but there just wasn't anything to pull it over with no branches. And I could have used a bigger wedge, as all I had were the small 6" pocket wedges.

But man I hate those things with no branches - it seems like every time I get into one I end up with it just sitting there laughing at me.


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## stumpy75 (Sep 23, 2012)

The problem I've seen with these kinds of trees is that there is not any weight left up top, so they don't go over like you think they would/should. Cut a little more of the hinge and maybe double the wedges(Drive one on top of the other), but don't expect them to drop like a "normal" tree.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 23, 2012)

Trees with no top call for a deeper face cut, get close to 1/2 diameter, and let gravity help you out more. Bigger wedges are also a good thing for bigger trees. I've learned the hard way, what looks simple is harder than most living trees.


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## Patrick62 (Sep 23, 2012)

*according to Dent*

You done good. 

The only thing I do is try and make sure your back cut is level (you done that), atleast 2" above the face cut (you done that), and make sure it is reasonably parallel with the face cut.. Then tighten up the wedges and make sure you still have a couple inches of hinge wood that is the safety in this somewhat hazardous situation. When it starts to move, you do as well. Outta there!!

It sure can jack up your heart rate when you are dropping a stick that you don't know where or how it is going to work out! Always, read your stump and see what you were really achieving. How to hold the saw better, what happened, etc. From your description you could have placed that one anywhere in the circle. If there isn't enough lean to be seen then can be done that way, but the hinge can end up with HUGE forces against it. And a puff of wind and you get a barberchair....

You done good, grasshopper.


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## RandyMac (Sep 23, 2012)

Why would you go two inches above the facecut?


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## chucker (Sep 23, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Why would you go two inches above the facecut?



lol better than 2" below it!! lol cuz you now what will happen "IF".........


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## RandyMac (Sep 23, 2012)

Stump shot is over rated.
Remember to look up, snags shed stuff.


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## Whitespider (Sep 24, 2012)

I cut a lot of standing-dead... always tricky. Most of it is elm, a few oak... and if it's leaning, it's normally not leaning in the direction I want it to fall. Because of too many mishaps and close calls I've gone to rigging every one on a dead-head pulley, even if I have to string over 100 foot of cable to do so. The cable doesn't need to be placed real high on the tree, 10-12 feet will usually suffice. I put goodly amount of tension on the cable (come-a-long, winch, vehicle, etc.) before I start cutting, and then add even more after the face cut; the idea is to get it moving early in the direction I want it to fall... and keep it moving in that direction. Sometimes, if I think it's needed, I'll add a recovery strap to the end of the cable for the "bungee cord" effect. I want a sharp chain to make a fast back cut... the faster the better. If it's a real tricky situation I'll get some help, hook the cable to my truck (if I can), so the "help" can keep the line "pulling" on the tree all the way to the ground... near always the tree will fall right on top of the dead-head.

Right or wrong, I'm not much for using PPE, but I do put on the hardhat when I'm working under a standing-dead... they have a tendency to drop widow-makers when they start moving.


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## Somesawguy (Sep 24, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> I cut a lot of standing-dead... always tricky. Most of it is elm, a few oak... and if it's leaning, it's normally not leaning in the direction I want it to fall. Because of too many mishaps and close calls I've gone to rigging every one on a dead-head pulley, even if I have to string over 100 foot of cable to do so. The cable doesn't need to be placed real high on the tree, 10-12 feet will usually suffice. I put goodly amount of tension on the cable (come-a-long, winch, vehicle, etc.) before I start cutting, and then add even more after the face cut; the idea is to get it moving early in the direction I want it to fall... and keep it moving in that direction. Sometimes, if I think it's needed, I'll add a recovery strap to the end of the cable for the "bungee cord" effect. I want a sharp chain to make a fast back cut... the faster the better. If it's a real tricky situation I'll get some help, hook the cable to my truck (if I can), so the "help" can keep the line "pulling" on the tree all the way to the ground... near always the tree will fall right on top of the dead-head.
> 
> Right or wrong, I'm not much for using PPE, but I do put on the hardhat when I'm working under a standing-dead... they have a tendency to drop widow-makers when they start moving.



I preach hard hats now, after being nailed on the head with a dead branch a few years ago from a standing dead. I never saw it coming. :msp_scared:

Standing dead is pretty much all we cut, and they are a pain. Between rotted bark, and a lack of solid branches, it's hard to judge where they will go. Every time I drop one, I wish I had a winch, and about 200ft of cable on my truck.


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## imagineero (Sep 24, 2012)

Randy Mac is steering you right mate....

As are the other posters. A standing stick doesn't have any favour, and the bigger in diameter it gets, the worse the situation becomes. Cut a deep face into it, half way or _very_ slightly past halfway. Some guys refer to this as 'sawing lean into a tree'. With a notch just past half you may not even need to wedge if there's a slight favor. 

Stump shot is overrated, and doubly so on standing sticks. With no weight on top it's hardly likely to sit back on the stump, and the higher you cut it in the back cut the harder you make the job. Put your back cut in level with your gunning cut, and combined with a deep notch you'll be knocking those sticks over without need of the back of an axe, while your buddies are blue in the face from wedging. 


Shaun


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Why would you go two inches above the facecut?


Mainly just to keep it from kicking back. I've never had that happen, but don't want to either. In this case that extra meat likely held it up from dropping until it cracked. 

This one was difficult for me to judge, as we were on a pretty good hill and the trunk had a bit of a curve to it. It was very well balanced anyway, but it made it deceptive. There was a clear lane to drop it in without knocking any snags off, and it didn't hit more than a couple of saplings. 

A deeper face cut probably would have helped.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

imagineero said:


> Randy Mac is steering you right mate....
> 
> As are the other posters. A standing stick doesn't have any favour, and the bigger in diameter it gets, the worse the situation becomes. Cut a deep face into it, half way or _very_ slightly past halfway. Some guys refer to this as 'sawing lean into a tree'. With a notch just past half you may not even need to wedge if there's a slight favor.
> 
> ...


Thanks - I'll give that a shot next time. These darn dead sticks are most of what I cut.


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## DFK (Sep 24, 2012)

*Standing Dead*

Almost everthing I cut is "Standing Dead Oak"
I started taking an axe and removing all of the "punk" on the outside of the cut area.
Now I use my saw to remove most of it. Finish up with the axe.
This way I can see just how much solid wood I have to work with.
Ran into that wedge in the punk wood thing several years back. 

I also put a rope up in them. Unlike WhiteSpider I get my rope as high as possible.
Tye it off to a 3-ton come-a-long and redirect their fall. 

David


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## Laroo (Sep 24, 2012)

Just a question for RandyMac or Gologit or any other seasoned fallers, doesn't pulling a tree with a cable or chain increase the likelihood of a barberchair, I would think that the higher up you applied pressure the worse it would be. Most of my experience is with standing dead beetle killed lodgepole pine, with 30" dia being about the biggest. Just a question guys!!


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## aaronbrown (Sep 24, 2012)

i droped three standing dead trees the other day all of them full of widow makers first two fell with out a problem third one on the other hand i made my face cut and when i made my back cut i left a decent hinge for safty tree started falling then hung up in another tree so i cut the rest of the hinge dang thing still wouldnt fall even with 10-15 mph winds plowing in the direction i wanted it to fall i ended up hooking a chain to the tree and draged the stump 20 feet before it finnaly fell


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## NDtreehugger (Sep 24, 2012)

*Most of the trees I cut are standing dead*

I never trust a dead tree to do what I want it to.
I a use cable and chain then hook it to my bumper, if I can't hook to the bumper, I hook to another tree.
If thats not possible, times are tuff, as long as their are no wires or buildings I will fell it to the way it leans.
here are a few things I use to move the tree my way.

Dead trees I cut never get a wedge don't trust them.
I had a dead tree lean back on the wedge and as I pounded it in, 
the tree snapped and fell back over the wedge. :msp_scared:


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

This one had no lean to speak of... Didn't use the wedges either... Had a good breeze though...
I like large face cuts if the stick is good and solid, with little lean... Standing dead always makes me nervous. If They're solid, it's not too bad, but rotten??? Yuk!!!


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Mainly just to keep it from kicking back. I've never had that happen, but don't want to either. In this case that extra meat likely held it up from dropping until it cracked.
> 
> This one was difficult for me to judge, as we were on a pretty good hill and the trunk had a bit of a curve to it. It was very well balanced anyway, but it made it deceptive. There was a clear lane to drop it in without knocking any snags off, and it didn't hit more than a couple of saplings.
> 
> A deeper face cut probably would have helped.



Holding wood is a good thing... But what do you mean by "Kicking back"?


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## dingeryote (Sep 24, 2012)

As the others have pointed out, face it deeper than normal, and forget stumpshot. Dead fibers don't flex much anyhow.

One thing I have noted is the need to thump any standing dead stem. Like you did with the hatchett.
A soft rotted out spot or hidden hollows will ruin your plans in a heartbeat when the thing blows out from the shifted vert. load.
Having a Bull line set but not tensioned much, will provide a micro second longer to GTFO if nothing else.
Sneak up on those things and look for them to have a plan to kill ya as most of 'em do.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Holding wood is a good thing... But what do you mean by "Kicking back"?


Sorry - my term for having the butt of the trunk slide backwards off the stump, what I guess is being referred to as stumpshot.

It does make sense to me that this should not be a huge issue with a dead stick like that.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Sorry - my term for having the butt of the trunk slide backwards off the stump, what I guess is being referred to as stumpshot.
> 
> It does make sense to me that this should not be a huge issue with a dead stick like that.



Gotcha... What always worries me the most about the dead "snags" as I've heard them called, is the fear of cutting through the only solid stuff in the tree, leaving only junk to hold all the vertical weight!:msp_scared:
I'm sure there are guys that make a living removing these types, and have made a science out of it.
I just don't know any.


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## H 2 H (Sep 24, 2012)

Just cut down a good size Alder (50') this morning and the center was hollow scared me pretty good; making the under cut and the tree started going down and I was only in it about 5" and the tree was about 24" dia. at the but it was hollow the first 5 feet at the but


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## haveawoody (Sep 24, 2012)

Standing dead the bigger they get the harder they fall.

Dead stuff as smallish trees seem to follow gravity pretty well but beyond 2ft they seem to follow a new set of random rules sometimes.
Anything dead i rope as high up as i can without climbing (crossbow) works well to get a starter rope up high.
Then it's winch time to put some tension on the tree to direct it where you want.
I take a few extra minutes to remove everything i can reach with my pole saw on the fell side to help the process along and to stop fragile things from just dropping on me as i make the fell cut.

Give the dead tree a good hard wrap with a hammer on the place you intend to make your cuts before you make the fell cut.
A rotten center will make a very different sound than solid wood.
Not a guarantee you wont find a rotten section on your cut but atleast the hammer hit will give you a good idea of what your dealing with most of the time.


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## redoakneck (Sep 24, 2012)

DFK said:


> Almost everthing I cut is "Standing Dead Oak"
> I started taking an axe and removing all of the "punk" on the outside of the cut area.
> Now I use my saw to remove most of it. Finish up with the axe.
> This way I can see just how much solid wood I have to work with.
> ...




Make sure the wood is good if putting the rope up high, pull first (while you are away from the tree!!) and see how much force you can apply before you cut. If the tree is dead and you put that rope up high, and pull while you are cutting or under the tree, watch out!!!
I just did a 32" dead maple and half of it was dead to the point of being too weak to put a strap up high. I think white spider has done this a bit and see why he goes low thinking the wood should be stronger. These dead ones always have a very high sphincter factor for me, couldn't drive a tack in my azz with a 10# sledge when under one of them. Just my 2 cents, they are all different, but the deader the worse IMO.


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## haveawoody (Sep 24, 2012)

H 2 H,

Got to love when your saw cuts like mad when you hit the hollow spot.
Thats when they get dangerous fast.

I had a different problem on a dead 2' rock elm early this year.
The tree was realy really hard to cut so it was taking forever to make my fell cut.
No pinches or binds just crazy hard section.

The tree was roped then winched under tension but as my fell cut got close the entire tree just moved over 1/4" and the hinge was gone.
The culprit was a high up small branch that had grown into the tree beside it, just a 2" branch way up holding up the tree now with no let go happening.

Spent nearly an hour pounding wedges but with no hinge it was a very scarey hour.
When i stepped back to imagane how i was going to do this safely a wind gust hit and both trees came down at once.
I guess some serious weight was on tree#2 from tree #1 because tree #2 wasn't cut at all.


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## indiansprings (Sep 24, 2012)

I think fallling dead oak is the most dangerous actvity I do, really only cut oak and hickory, once in a while green hedge or ash.
I wear a hard hat if their is any limbs, if the tree is good and solid I've never had and issue, but punky ones scare the hell out of me, I posted a video on here of me falling just such a tree, 30/32 dbh on a steep hollow side, it was not something I even wanted to do, I did exactly as some have stated, deeper face cut, when I started the back cut it was amazing how fast the thing went over, as soon as I hear it crack I took off like a jackrabbit, I hadn't got five steps when I heard it hit the ground.
Now after the surgery my days of doing trees like that are over, sure as heck can't react near as fast, at least for the next few months.

If you ever get fearless falling trees like that, you need to quit, because your going to wind up in the bottom of a six foot hole.


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## H 2 H (Sep 24, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> *H 2 H*,
> 
> *Got to love when your saw cuts like mad when you hit the hollow spot.
> Thats when they get dangerous fast.*
> ...



That's what happen going great and then nothing; I pull the saw out so fast and stood back and I could hear cracking I stepped back about ten feet and she just fell over :msp_tongue:


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## haveawoody (Sep 24, 2012)

H 2 H,

I've had a couple of those core rotten things just crumble one side of the hinge.
Always a rapid heartbeat when the saw goes mental and you either cut right through the hinge or one side of the hinge starts to go.
Then it's a question of how fast can a man run with a chainsaw LOL

Hard to tell they were trees on the ground afterwards LOL


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> If you ever get fearless falling trees like that, you need to quit, because your going to wind up in the bottom of a six foot hole.


Well I won't be getting fearless any time soon! There's a big pucker factor when I drop one of those and probably always will be. I actually did this one because I was pretty sure the base was solid in the middle. Red oak without obvious defects is usually pretty solid around here, but the ashes are anyone's guess, regardless of how they look from the outside. The darn things can get really punky and still look pretty good. 

One time I was cutting a three trunk white ash, each trunk between 12" and 15". I cut off the first one and then the last two were joined about 5' up. So I decided to take the smaller first above the joined part. Just as I got almost done done with the back cut, the larger trunk I had not touched simply broke off completely, and the whole thing fell right in my escape path. The one I was working on was still up, and the one that broke looked far more solid than the one I was cutting. Thankfully it had a lean and the few upper branches fell away from me. I'm glad it was not a bigger tree.


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## flashhole (Sep 24, 2012)

Good thread and timely for me. Three years ago a big storm came through and knocked the tops out of a lot of trees, two of them across my easement road. Not a big deal to cut and move the fallen stuff but now I have the dead trunk to deal with. It's not a monster tree but it is good size ... about 30 inches diameter and about 40 feet tall. It has some lean to it and it's leaning is a good direction with a reasonably clear drop zone. I will tackle it in the next week or two. Some good pointers here.


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## farmboss45 (Sep 24, 2012)

One thing I would advise is "NOT" to run before it "commits" to the fall, too many people get flattened because they thought it was going one way, then "HELLO stump spin" or something else goofy happens. Also, the advise on hard hat, never was one for them, but with as many dead ash as I am cutting, I made myself get in the habit. As I get older, the PPE gets to be more of a habit. Chaps, helmet w/ muffs[441 screams] and kevlar backed gloves are worn more so than not. Big face cuts as posted earlier also are a must when you do not have the top weight to take them over help a lot. Trunk lean does not always dominate.


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

Hollow Red Fir, noisy result





Doug Fir snag, burnt and rotten




More DF snags




What is this PPE you speak of?


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hollow Red Fir, noisy result
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Did you ever get that coon out of that tree???:msp_biggrin:


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## rwoods (Sep 24, 2012)

Come to think of it there is a slight resemblance to Marcel Ledbetter. :msp_smile: Ron


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Did you ever get that coon out of that tree???:msp_biggrin:



This had 'coon bones inside it. It was also a noisy event.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

farmboss45 said:


> One thing I would advise is "NOT" to run before it "commits" to the fall, too many people get flattened because they thought it was going one way, then "HELLO stump spin" or something else goofy happens. Also, the advise on hard hat, never was one for them, but with as many dead ash as I am cutting, I made myself get in the habit. As I get older, the PPE gets to be more of a habit. Chaps, helmet w/ muffs[441 screams] and kevlar backed gloves are worn more so than not. Big face cuts as posted earlier also are a must when you do not have the top weight to take them over help a lot. Trunk lean does not always dominate.


Well, I had my two wedges in it and I couldn't really pound them in much farther with my hatchet. I wasn't going to cut through the hinge. About all I could do was walk away (while watching it of course) and think about it from a safe distance. My Dad had a third wedge so I was thinking about getting that. But I also have seen enough of these to know they do often just go over after a delay, maybe from a breeze or maybe from finally cracking out a few more fibers. I liked watching it fall from where I was.


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## Gologit (Sep 24, 2012)

Get rid of the hatchet and get a four or five pound axe. If you're going to drive wedges, drive them.


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

This is the wiener section Bob.


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## farmboss45 (Sep 24, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Well, I had my two wedges in it and I couldn't really pound them in much farther with my hatchet. I wasn't going to cut through the hinge. About all I could do was walk away (while watching it of course) and think about it from a safe distance. My Dad had a third wedge so I was thinking about getting that. But I also have seen enough of these to know they do often just go over after a delay, maybe from a breeze or maybe from finally cracking out a few more fibers. I liked watching it fall from where I was.



I know what your saying, I had one the other day that fought the cut all the way, wind blowing the same way it was falling, just sank real slow, I was inclined to watch from a distance as well.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> This is the wiener section Bob.


Gee, I wish I could be as cool as you. 

Knowledge ain't worth squat if it comes with attitude.


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

Just tryin' to keep the weakend warriors from diving into the shallow end of the pool.
From what I have seen, some direction is indicated. If you don't like how I or anyone else comes across, there is an ignore feature. I really don't give a flyin' #### but will wait for you to pull a "Brad". In others words, you can kiss my skinny white Scottish ass.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Just tryin' to keep the weakend warriors from diving into the shallow end of the pool.
> From what I have seen, some direction is indicated. If you don't like how I or anyone else comes across, there is an ignore feature. I really don't give a flyin' #### but will wait for you to pull a "Brad". In others words, you can kiss my skinny white Scottish ass.



Ain't enough meat on yer ass to bother with... And I'd listen to every pissy comment you had to offer on falling trees... Even if all it had to do with is west coast "soft wood" which i hear you guys got out there... 
Soft wood...
:msp_biggrin:


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

I think I'll pour a glass of 12 year old and settle in for an evening of entertainment on this thread... :msp_wink:


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Ain't enough meat on yer ass to bother with... And I'd listen to every pissy comment you had to offer on falling trees... Even if all it had to do with is west coast "soft wood" which i hear you guys got out there...
> Soft wood...
> :msp_biggrin:



It is good to have friends


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Just tryin' to keep the weakend warriors from diving into the shallow end of the pool.
> From what I have seen, some direction is indicated. If you don't like how I or anyone else comes across, there is an ignore feature. I really don't give a flyin' #### but will wait for you to pull a "Brad". In others words, you can kiss my skinny white Scottish ass.



While we have you in such an instructive frame of mind, could you answer for me the why and when you use the "Humbolt" face cut as opposed to the regular face cut?


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

You Humboldt when you don't know the words.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> It is good to have friends



Yup... :msp_wink:
Humbolt...
Ain't found a use for one yet, but some day....
Some day...


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## RandyMac (Sep 24, 2012)

Seriously, well maybe.

Besides having a little to no trim on the butt, the Humboldt will almost always kick the trunk clear of the stump. Done correctly, you can jump a tree into next week. The steeper and deeper the facecut, the longer the tree stays on the stump, a shallow cut will have it pop right off. Sometimes it is easier to use a Humboldt on steep ground.
There is nothing wrong about the open or conventional facecut, keep the backcut just above the gunning cut and cut a snipe off the forward edge, that will force the trunk off the stump and help save out the top better.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 25, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Just tryin' to keep the weakend warriors from diving into the shallow end of the pool.
> From what I have seen, some direction is indicated. If you don't like how I or anyone else comes across, there is an ignore feature. I really don't give a flyin' #### but will wait for you to pull a "Brad". In others words, you can kiss my skinny white Scottish ass.


Bull. There are plenty of areas where I'm the expert, and I know how to share knowledge graciously. Your goal is clearly to show off how much you know, couched in obscure terms you don't explain to show you're an insider, and maybe post some pictures of yourself in the glory days so we can see how cool you were. 

Well I don't suffer fools and it don't matter what you know if the chip on your shoulder is that big - get your skinny ass outta my threads, I don't want your "help".


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## Whitespider (Sep 25, 2012)

Occasionally I believe I need an open face cut for maximum control of a difficult tree, otherwise I've started using the Humboldt instead of the conventional for most. I like having a nice flat and square butt to start my bucking... the notch wedge comes out's the stump, not your firewood. And I've noticed that often the butt tends to land a bit further from the stump... well, usually... I hate it when the butt is jammed tight against the stump.

addendum; 'Course my cuts ain't always as pretty as those nice straight lines I can draw with my 'puter... just sayin'.


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## haveawoody (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of that straight across fell cut.
On smallish trees it's fine but on big things the tree tends to sit back just enough to pinch even before you have room to start a wedge.

No fun trying to get a pinch saw out of a big tree.

I like my cut going down at about 5d and ending up an inch or so above the V.
Ending that cut an inch above it's quite difficult to cut the hindge away by accident also.
For me i find even on rough trees that 5d down cut gives you much more time to get a wedge or two in before the tree gets an attitude.

Cutting down just a bit on the fell cut and the tree tends to jump away anyway.
More cuts that i have to make is just that


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 25, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Seriously, well maybe.
> 
> Besides having a little to no trim on the butt, the Humboldt will almost always kick the trunk clear of the stump. Done correctly, you can jump a tree into next week. The steeper and deeper the facecut, the longer the tree stays on the stump, a shallow cut will have it pop right off. Sometimes it is easier to use a Humboldt on steep ground.
> There is nothing wrong about the open or conventional facecut, keep the backcut just above the gunning cut and cut a snipe off the forward edge, that will force the trunk off the stump and help save out the top better.



Thanks, I use it a lot for saving the butt, I never knew it had a name until I came here, though. I just wondered why yall used it out there, since it had a Northern California name and all.
And thanks for the pictures,too.I wish I would have had a camera a few times, like that time my uncle laid a tall straight red oak across the cab of his truck.That would have been a good one.


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 25, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Bull. There are plenty of areas where I'm the expert, and I know how to share knowledge graciously. Your goal is clearly to show off how much you know, couched in obscure terms you don't explain to show you're an insider, and maybe post some pictures of yourself in the glory days so we can see how cool you were.
> 
> Well I don't suffer fools and it don't matter what you know if the chip on your shoulder is that big - get your skinny ass outta my threads, I don't want your "help".



Lol, you never worked on a logging crew did you?


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## 802climber (Sep 25, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Sorry - my term for having the butt of the trunk slide backwards off the stump, what I guess is being referred to as stumpshot.



Around here we call that "slipping the stump"...

Stumpshot is making your back cut well above your face cut - it is the "step" that you were talking about.

Also, I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but you should try to keeping the pounding to a minimum with the dead snags, with some species it is a great way to knock branches/tops loose. You can set wedges if you must but I like to avoid reefing on them in the dead stuff.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 25, 2012)

redheadwoodshed said:


> Lol, you never worked on a logging crew did you?


Of course not, nor would I want to. I never dreamed of growing up to be a logger - I'm all grown up already and don't feel the need to put up with other people's bull####. I don't care how much someone knows or if they're the best of the best, if they can't be civil or teat people with respect I have no time for them. And just because certain behavior is acceptable on a logging crew doesn't mean it flies other places, no more than telling fart jokes is funny everywhere - if people have no manners it's not my problem.


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## Gologit (Sep 25, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Bull. There are plenty of areas where I'm the expert, and I know how to share knowledge graciously. Your goal is clearly to show off how much you know, couched in obscure terms you don't explain to show you're an insider, and maybe post some pictures of yourself in the glory days so we can see how cool you were.
> 
> Well I don't suffer fools and it don't matter what you know if the chip on your shoulder is that big - get your skinny ass outta my threads, I don't want your "help".



Kid, you're so far off base you're not even in the ball park any more.

RandyMac has cut more real trees than you've seen and his methods are sound. If he doesn't explain things to your satisfaction maybe you should have the rest of us explain it to you...we all understand it.

Also, you don't own a thread...even if you start it. You're just the first guy to speak.

I think it's real clear who has the chip on their shoulder.

Maybe you'd be happier some place else.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 25, 2012)

dieseldirt said:


> Around here we call that "slipping the stump"...
> 
> Stumpshot is making your back cut well above your face cut - it is the "step" that you were talking about.
> 
> Also, I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but you should try to keeping the pounding to a minimum with the dead snags, with some species it is a great way to knock branches/tops loose. You can set wedges if you must but I like to avoid reefing on them in the dead stuff.


Thank you! This particular tree had nothing left up top. I'll try to avoid shaking the fragile ones - I've never really used the wedges to try to move the tree much, mostly to keep it from rocking back. I think the deeper face cut for these dead trees without much mass up top will help a lot. I want the tree's weight to pull it down rather than trying to jack it over with wedges.


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## Chris-PA (Sep 25, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Kid, you're so far off base you're not even in the ball park any more.
> 
> RandyMac has cut more real trees than you've seen and his methods are sound. If he doesn't explain things to your satisfaction maybe you should have the rest of us explain it to you...we all understand it.
> 
> ...


I never doubted his experience or methods at all, just pointed out his tiresome trashing of others to build himself up.

Still, life is busy and I have no need to crash your party - carry on, I'm gone.


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## 802climber (Sep 25, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> I think the deeper face cut for these dead trees without much mass up top will help a lot.



Yeah, it has it's place. It can also be more dangerous if you read the lean of the tree wrong. Or if it puts your hinge into rotten heartwood, for example. Or if you start cutting your face way too deep for that particular tree and it pinches or fails.....


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## RandyMac (Sep 25, 2012)

I didn't grow up dreaming of logging, it was a tie between locomotives and the headrig at Mill B.

The term "wiener" is as not as derogatory as you think, more like novice, cub, puppy, it takes time to grow to a boar.

I will never steer you wrong, this is serious business. Knowing when to walk away is something I learned the hard way, I am a knothead.


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## saxman (Sep 25, 2012)

OK, let's all take a deep breath and get back to the topic at hand, dropping standing dead stuff. In my case I try to leave them alone if possible but if I have to drop one the first thing I do is to sound the trunk with a 3lb hammer to try and determine if the tree is hollow or not. I also try to get a cable or strap up as high as possible in the tree. I make the face cut then tension the line a little. I make the back cut to a resonable depth then pull a little harder on the line while standing well away from the tree, hopefully she falls over. It definately takes more planning and study on these to try and make it as safe as possible.

Steve


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 25, 2012)

WoodHeatWarrior said:


> Of course not, nor would I want to. I never dreamed of growing up to be a logger - I'm all grown up already and don't feel the need to put up with other people's bull####. I don't care how much someone knows or if they're the best of the best, if they can't be civil or teat people with respect I have no time for them. And just because certain behavior is acceptable on a logging crew doesn't mean it flies other places, no more than telling fart jokes is funny everywhere - if people have no manners it's not my problem.



I never dreamed of growing up to be a logger,either.I dreamed of going as far away from logging as possible. Part of being "all grown up" is learning how to put up with people's B.S. I didn't see anything remotely un-civil, just a little friendly banter.And you are correct, logging crew behavior is not for every place, because you aren't in near the danger in the office or living room as you are in the woods hanging a chainsaw into a tree.If I wanted to know more about a particular way to cut a tree or something, I'd sure rather take the razzing from a logger than anyone else in order to learn a better way to do something that might even save my life.But that's just me.And fart jokes aren't nearly as funny as the fart, itself.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 25, 2012)

There's some good advice in this thread, and some that's a little shaky. Randy may be an arrogant SOB, but those willing to listen will learn a thing or 60 from him (and Gologit as well). I'm glad to see them over here watching what us firewooders are up to.

For those that want to learn a bit more on how to put em on the ground without getting put in the ground yourself, I suggest getting a good book or two:

Bailey's - Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent

Bailey's - To Fell a Tree by Jeff Jepson - Second Edition To Fell a Tree by Jeff Jepson

I have the second book, and will be ordering the first one with my next Bailey's order. Nothing beats firsthand training, but that's not always an option. Remember, advice over the internet is worth exactly what you paid for it.


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## redoakneck (Sep 25, 2012)

redheadwoodshed said:


> I never dreamed of growing up to be a logger,either.I dreamed of going as far away from logging as possible. Part of being "all grown up" is learning how to put up with people's B.S. I didn't see anything remotely un-civil, just a little friendly banter.And you are correct, logging crew behavior is not for every place, because you aren't in near the danger in the office or living room as you are in the woods hanging a chainsaw into a tree.If I wanted to know more about a particular way to cut a tree or something, I'd sure rather take the razzing from a logger than anyone else in order to learn a better way to do something that might even save my life.But that's just me.And fart jokes aren't nearly as funny as the fart, itself.





How many beans do you put in the bean soup??? 

answer- 239. If you put 1 more in it will be too farty... from my 8 yr-old...sorry, just had to tell it


----------



## brenndatomu (Sep 25, 2012)

redoakneck said:


> How many beans do you put in the bean soup???
> 
> answer- 239. If you put 1 more in it will be too farty... from my 8 yr-old...sorry, just had to tell it



 :fart:


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 25, 2012)

redoakneck said:


> How many beans do you put in the bean soup???
> 
> answer- 239. If you put 1 more in it will be too farty... from my 8 yr-old...sorry, just had to tell it



Good one! Repped you for that one.


----------



## Arbonaut (Sep 25, 2012)

redheadwoodshed said:


> I never dreamed of growing up to be a logger,either.I dreamed of going as far away from logging as possible. Part of being "all grown up" is learning how to put up with people's B.S. I didn't see anything remotely un-civil, just a little friendly banter.And you are correct, logging crew behavior is not for every place, because you aren't in near the danger in the office or living room as you are in the woods hanging a chainsaw into a tree.If I wanted to know more about a particular way to cut a tree or something, I'd sure rather take the razzing from a logger than anyone else in order to learn a better way to do something that might even save my life.But that's just me.And fart jokes aren't nearly as funny as the fart, itself.



Nothing is funnier than that. Especially when they are warm.


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## haveawoody (Sep 25, 2012)

Steve NW WI,

Alright who is giving shaky advice? lol
Hope not me, i have cut many a dead and rotted beast and I'm still typing here 

Had my number of close calls but that's pretty typical for anyone that cuts trees.
Some days the law of averages just seems to show up uninvited and all.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 26, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> Steve NW WI,
> 
> Alright who is giving shaky advice? lol
> Hope not me, i have cut many a dead and rotted beast and I'm still typing here
> ...



There's no horribly bad advice, just some that might not be well communicated, some that isn't quite right but not likely to get them killed. Here's a couple examples. Don't get all bent out of shape if I pick on ya below here, I'll explain my reason and we can debate it if you think differently. I'm not a pro, but I try to keep learning, and hope I've made more mistakes in the past than I will in the future. Anyone, especially the old sawdust crusted timber tippers can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I take criticism well.



Whitespider said:


> I put goodly amount of tension on the cable (come-a-long, winch, vehicle, etc.) before I start cutting, and then add even more after the face cut; the idea is to get it moving early in the direction I want it to fall... and keep it moving in that direction. Sometimes, if I think it's needed, I'll add a recovery strap to the end of the cable for the "bungee cord" effect. I want a sharp chain to make a fast back cut... the faster the better. If it's a real tricky situation I'll get some help, hook the cable to my truck (if I can), so the "help" can keep the line "pulling" on the tree all the way to the ground... near always the tree will fall right on top of the dead-head.



Not really bad, but unclear. I would never hook a come a long with 1000# of pull to a big tree and hope for good results. A stout winch or heavy piece of equipment is in order. Also, between this post and more than a few others, it seems that solo tree pulling is pretty common. I've done it once or twice, but I'm not at all comfortable with it. Get a GOOD helper that understands what needs to be done to run the winch/truck/whatever, and you can each concentrate on your task.



NDtreehugger said:


> Dead trees I cut never get a wedge don't trust them.
> I had a dead tree lean back on the wedge and as I pounded it in,
> the tree snapped and fell back over the wedge. :msp_scared:




That tree would have set back and snapped without the wedge as well most likely. I think of setting wedges whether or not you anticipate needing em as an insurance policy. It's better to have one there and not need it than to not have one and suddenly find yourself needing one.



farmboss45 said:


> One thing I would advise is "NOT" to run before it "commits" to the fall, too many people get flattened because they thought it was going one way, then "HELLO stump spin" or something else goofy happens.



Run doesn't have a place in getting away from a dropping tree. Certainly don't lollygag, but running, especially with a saw in your hands isn't the best choice. It's hard to take evasive action if you're flat on your face after tripping over something you didn't see. Again, possibly just not written as it was meant.



haveawoody said:


> I'm not a big fan of that straight across fell cut.
> On smallish trees it's fine but on big things the tree tends to sit back just enough to pinch even before you have room to start a wedge.
> 
> No fun trying to get a pinch saw out of a big tree.
> ...



I've not had trouble with bigger trees setting back before I can get a wedge in, not sure what you have going on there. Maybe a pic of your face cut would show something.

The 5° down cut is a very shallow angled "farmer cut", "slopping back cut" or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't help with wedging, actually hurts it. The steeper the angle, the more force is directed sideways across the tree, putting shear force against the hinge instead of lifting the tree. Again, not probably a huge factor at 5°, but ideally you want to be at 0°. If someone doesn't understand what I'm trying to say here, let me know and I'll try to draw a diagram.

Discuss...


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## H 2 H (Sep 26, 2012)

H 2 H said:


> Just cut down a good size Alder (50') this morning and the center was hollow scared me pretty good; making the under cut and the tree started going down and I was only in it about 5" and the tree was about 24" dia. at the but it was hollow the first 5 feet at the but



Today I went and talked with my uncle about that Alder and his neighbor was there; we started talking about it and they said the place I'm cutting at use to be and old dairy farm and to watch out because I would find more of those Alders with hollow center. 

Sure enough the two tree's I dropped today had hollow centers something to do with cow chit they said; the Alders are so close together it amazing


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## haveawoody (Sep 26, 2012)

Steve NW WI,

I started cutting at a small angle down after working on a rotted beast.
With a standard flat cut rotted things can break out a hinge one side at anytime even before you can wedge them, exactly what happened to me.
With a straight cut the tree was going in whatever direction it felt.

I've had a few others do the same thing since but the small angle down means the tree always falls away,left or right.
Probably a me thing but i find since I'm cutting more wood i have more time to get a wedge in, not much in it though but seems to make a difference on something that can go at anytime.

Now i just pretend every tree i cut is a rotted thing and use the same technique as i would on the dead or dying.
I've never has a sitback pinch since i started cutting my tiny angle, but like you say the penalty is more pressure on the hinge.


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## kdxken (Sep 26, 2012)

saxman said:


> OK, let's all take a deep breath and get back to the topic at hand, dropping standing dead stuff. In my case I try to leave them alone if possible but if I have to drop one the first thing I do is to sound the trunk with a 3lb hammer to try and determine if the tree is hollow or not. I also try to get a cable or strap up as high as possible in the tree. I make the face cut then tension the line a little. I make the back cut to a resonable depth then pull a little harder on the line while standing well away from the tree, hopefully she falls over. It definately takes more planning and study on these to try and make it as safe as possible.
> 
> Steve



I follow much the same process. In addition, I like to give the tree a couple pulls with a long rope to test for rot above the trunk. I have been taking down standing dead ash lately and have been surprised by the inconsistent rotting. With really scary trees I try to fell on a day before a big wind so if I have to leave 'em nature will finish the job. Here's a video from the other day:

ash2 - YouTube


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## haveawoody (Sep 26, 2012)

kdxken,

Yeah the hammer can tell you a lot about what the tree is really like before you even make that first cut.
I like to do one more step on the dead and dying, pole saw every limb i can reach on the fell cut side.
Helps the tree fall having less weight on that side and removes most of what can fall on you while you do your fell cut.

Everything else is pretty identical to me.

Dead trees are no place for a casual attitude thats for sure.


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## Whitespider (Sep 26, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> * Not really bad, but unclear. I would never hook a come a long with 1000# of pull to a big tree and hope for good results. A stout winch or heavy piece of equipment is in order. Also, between this post and more than a few others, it seems that solo tree pulling is pretty common. ...Get a GOOD helper...
> 
> Discuss...*



OK, I'll discuss...
I though it was pretty clear when I started that post explaining I pull near *every* standing-dead… as in, whether needed or not, just on principle and added safety.

Actually, my heavy-duty come-a-long (cable puller) is a twin-gear rated at 4½-ton (9000# of pull)... originally used in the body shop of the family owned dealership. It weren't cheap, and it's built from real steel. Besides, it ain’t being used to “pull” the tree all the way to the ground; it’s being used to make sure the tree gets started moving in the intended direction… like my post stated.

I will agree that "solo tree pulling" ain't ideal, but I can't go runnin' off lookin' for help every time I take down a standing-dead... I'd never get anything done. Most everything I do, I do alone... it's just part of the "livin' in the sticks" lifestyle I choose to live. It ain’t that the “pull” is absolutely necessary, every time… more of an aid or added insurance policy on dead trees because of past unexpected results. I've developed a system that works pretty good using a dead-head (or redirect) pulley that puts whatever I'm using to do the pullin' just a few steps from me while I'm cutting… usually close to an escape path. Besides, I did say in my post, “_If it's a real tricky situation I'll get some help…_”


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## rampaging-sloth (Sep 26, 2012)

Hello,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I did not know if i should put this in the dropping dead stuff thread or the Cottonwood ditch thread. I have 6 dead Cottonwoods to drop. Most of the tops are gone as well as the smaller branches. Cottonwood seems to drop branches if a star shines on them funny. 5 of them are still attached to the ground. I have one leaner that is caught up in an adjacent Cottonwood. Thought i might post a few pics for you.

Thank you for all of the help, experience and reading over the years. This is a great resource.

Regards,

rampaging-sloth


View attachment 254353
View attachment 254354
View attachment 254355


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## mitch95100 (Sep 26, 2012)

rampaging-sloth said:


> Hello,
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster. I did not know if i should put this in the dropping dead stuff thread or the Cottonwood ditch thread. I have 6 dead Cottonwoods to drop. Most of the tops are gone as well as the smaller branches. Cottonwood seems to drop branches if a star shines on them funny. 5 of them are still attached to the ground. I have one leaner that is caught up in an adjacent Cottonwood. Thought i might post a few pics for you.
> 
> ...



the leaner looks like a "problem tree" if you know what i mean. theres a decent size crack in the lower portion of the tree and its hung up in the top.
The best way i could see how to do that is to pull it out of the hang up. cottonwood is extremly soft papery wood anyway so not much stability at all.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 26, 2012)

rampaging-sloth said:


> Hello,
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster. I did not know if i should put this in the dropping dead stuff thread or the Cottonwood ditch thread. I have 6 dead Cottonwoods to drop. Most of the tops are gone as well as the smaller branches. Cottonwood seems to drop branches if a star shines on them funny. 5 of them are still attached to the ground. I have one leaner that is caught up in an adjacent Cottonwood. Thought i might post a few pics for you.
> 
> ...



Those are some UGLY cottonwoods. If they were mine, I'd be real tempted to leave em for the birds, unless they need to come down for some reason. That split on the outside is likely matched by two or 3 more you can't see on the inside. If you watched my videos in the cottonwood thread, you see how they exploded when they landed, and yours look even further gone. Besides, there's a lot better firewood out there that's easier to split too.

If you do take them down, wrap a heavy ratchet straip (not those little straps that hold the ATV on the trailer, a 3" "trucker" strap) just above the cut to minimize the chance of a nasty barberchair.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Those are some UGLY cottonwoods. If they were mine, I'd be real tempted to leave em for the birds, unless they need to come down for some reason. That split on the outside is likely matched by two or 3 more you can't see on the inside. If you watched my videos in the cottonwood thread, you see how they exploded when they landed, and yours look even further gone. Besides, there's a lot better firewood out there that's easier to split too.
> 
> If you do take them down, wrap a heavy ratchet straip (not those little straps that hold the ATV on the trailer, a 3" "trucker" strap) just above the cut to minimize the chance of a nasty barberchair.



I was thinking of 3 possibilities with those cottonwoods...

1. Dozer.
2. Backhoe.
3. Walk away...


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 26, 2012)

Here's my 2 cents on pulling dead trees.The story goes like this.Once upon a time I had a neighbor who owned 200 acres on 3 sides of my 7.5 acres.Every year another big pine or 6 will be killed by beetles next to the line.
One year one fell on my fence from his side onto my side. I cut up what was on my side and burned it right there.I blocked up what was on his side and rolled them back away from the fence so I could fix it.A day or 2 later he showed up with a deputy sheriff claiming I was cutting his timber!Well, after some heated words, they left, and I've never heard anything else out of him.Fast forward 2 years.I build a new chicken house, not long after I notice a pine starting to turn brown on his side that could fall right on my new chicken palace.So I ease over there with my 5 ton chainfall and some chain.Tie it off about 10 feet up the tree and right at the base of a black cherry about 60 feet away.I pulled,shortened the chain, pulled, rerigged again, pulled and the tree came right over like the wind got it.If the top had busted out, there was no way it would have hit me.The only time I was remotely near enough for any part of the tree to hit me is when I was redoing the rigging, but even then I was at the other end of a 30' chain.Solo pulling doesn't have to be dangerous if you have enough chain/ cable.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 26, 2012)

Here's a pic of the bottom block of one of the cottonwoods I did in my other thread. Can you see why they're trouble waiting to happen?

Note that it's solid on the outside but those internal cracks could have barberchaired it real easily.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

For those not familiar with the term "Barberchair"...
This...






Is a textbook case of one...


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## ri chevy (Sep 26, 2012)

:msp_ohmy::eek2:

Anyone who has been cutting for a while has had that happen to them. Yikes. It is always scary to see.


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## farmboss45 (Sep 26, 2012)

Run doesn't have a place in getting away from a dropping tree. Certainly don't lollygag, but running, especially with a saw in your hands isn't the best choice. It's hard to take evasive action if you're flat on your face after tripping over something you didn't see. Again, possibly just not written as it was meant.


Steve, you are correct, "run" should not have been used in that instance, but the point remains, be sure the tree is "commited" to a direction before taking your eyes off it and stepping for cover.I have been working on taling down over 50 dead ashes in my little woods lot, some are easy to read, some not. Lots of these have no branches left, and trunk lean is all you have, some have lots of branches, and trunk lean, a lot trickier. Top weight is harder to read sometimes.


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## ponyexpress976 (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I was thinking of 3 possibilities with those cottonwoods...
> 
> 1. Dozer.
> 2. Backhoe.
> 3. Walk away...



What about explosives? Hissssss........BOOOOM!...........Crash.......laughter ensues while watching the replay on youtube.


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## ponyexpress976 (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> For those not familiar with the term "Barberchair"...
> This...
> 
> 
> ...



The last hackberry I cut did the exact same thing. After the face was in, I was making the back cut and I think a chipmunk farted. Heard a crack and abandoned the saw in enough time to get out of the way.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

ponyexpress976 said:


> The last hackberry I cut did the exact same thing. After the face was in, I was making the back cut and I think a chipmunk farted. Heard a crack and abandoned the saw in enough time to get out of the way.



That was a straight grained Hackberry in the photo, that had the top weighed down by grape vines... If you'll notice, on the stump, there were a couple things he did not do correctly...:msp_ohmy:
I left it standing there like a monument. I'll jerk it out of there with the loader... After all the neighbors get to see it...
Good thing he's a good sport about it all... And didn't get hurt...
Sometimes it's the near misses that can really stick with us...


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## WidowMaker (Sep 26, 2012)

Her's an ugly Tamerack that collasped when we put the saw to it...Got away wth it...Lucky






View attachment 254380
View attachment 254381


I give up, I tried to put pictures in post....no joy...


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## ri chevy (Sep 26, 2012)

Wow. Not much you can do there. Yikes.


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## rwoods (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> For those not familiar with the term "Barberchair"...
> This...
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see a face cut. Am I just missing it? If not, what other result should one expect? Ron


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## haveawoody (Sep 26, 2012)

When a hinge crumbles i run, rarley with the saw but most times i leave the saw in place and just go.
A crumble hinge and most times the saw is trapped anyway so it usualy gets left that way as i depart.
I do see that the tree is going somewhere other than i am before i run, but a crumble on a hinge and the tree can do pretty much anything.

Guess i should have said observe how the tree is going then run like hell in a different direction, pick up the saw later. LOL


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I don't see a face cut. Am I just missing it? If not, what other result should one expect? Ron



Oh, there was a teeny weenie little face cut 90 degrees from where it actually tipped... You're right... I would have expected nothing else other than what happened... That's why I figured it would be a textbook example of what "not" to do...


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

WidowMaker said:


> Her's an ugly Tamerack that collasped when we put the saw to it...Got away wth it...Lucky
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Was this a "Noisy Event"??


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## haveawoody (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow,

I was looking at the barberchair picture thinking to myself something just aint right with cut on the end of the tree.
Must have been a tiny cut for the end to look so smooth.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> Hedgerow,
> 
> I was looking at the barberchair picture thinking to myself something just aint right with cut on the end of the tree.
> Must have been a tiny cut for the end to look so smooth.



Smaller than tiny... 
Teeny weinnie..
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## indiansprings (Sep 26, 2012)

This is an excellent thread, great advice from Randy Mac and several others, glad to see several examples posted. I don't think the "average" firewood cutter, not the AS enthusiast realizes how dangerous falling trees can be. I lost a 2nd cousin who was a 3rd generation logger in the early 80's, tree barber chaired kicked back and hit him in the chest, he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. A neighbor who lived on a place next to where I first rented after getting married was found under a 30" oak dead, he owned close to 500 acres, went out alone,didn't tell anyone where he went or what he was doing, he was found about 12 hours later, it was very obvious he didn't die instantly, limbs kept it from smashing him flat, his hands were raw dang near to the bone where he had tried digging his way out before sucumbing to internal injuries. 
It a dang dangerous task, best thing an newbie can do is go out with someone with lots of expierence and keep their mouth shut,watch several drop, ask any questions he has, and then drop some while being critiqued by the veteran. Randy is here to help people, he means nothing by his west coast banter, read and learn. I walk away from several trees every year. I figure I have nothing to prove, rather walk away than be a smashed rat turd.


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## RandyMac (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Was this a "Noisy Event"??



yep.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> yep.



Looks like some decent firewood...
I wonder if Tamarak smells good when it burns??


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## rwoods (Sep 26, 2012)

*Shaky Advice*

Nothing personal intended by this post nor is this intended to imply that anyone in particular is giving shaky advice.

This thread has become an open discussion of one of the most dangerous cutting activity that many of us non-pros will engage. There are several inherent problems with these types of threads that result in shaky advice: 

Good general advice is given without noting the inherent risks nor making it clear to the uninitiated that it is not a cure-all. There are some trees that you should just walk away from untouched. Example: whacking on (sounding) dead trees - a sounding blow can send a top down on you. A chattering saw chain can send a top down on you. Throw a few limbs in there and the risk goes up. Another example: using wedges - although I may use a drill hammer instead of an axe like most loggers, wedges are meant to be driven - if you can't safely *drive* a wedge without fear of sending something down on you, you need to leave that tree alone and walk away. Sounding and wedging are both examples of good general advice but neither is without risk in and of itself nor is either a cure-all.

Good advice that applies to every situation is often given, but ignored. Example: RandyMac was saying that spending too much of your attention on the potential hazards at the stump can lead you to ignore the greater danger of the overhead hazards. I can have the perfect stump and still be dead because something fell from above. 

Advice is given that assumes a higher level of reader competency than exists across the board. Example: Pulling trees - requires a skill set, tools, knowledge and experience many don't have. 

Posters use regional or occupational terminology or slang that are not universally understood.

Posters focus on regional or occupational differences of others (or the wood they cut) as a basis to argue their points while ignoring that the laws of physics know no such distinctions.

The espousing of unproven innovative techniques will raise lots of eyebrows and doubts of the experienced and raise the awe of (and sometimes the risks to) the inexperienced. Example: The 5 degree back cut. Most of us, self included, can't even consistently get our "level" back cuts that close. While I understand the goal of getting a wedge in place quicker, I'll let someone else do the geometry that will show the effect of a 5 degree back cut is incidental at most. Does any authority advocates anything other than a level back cut? I don't think so. To a novice if this small angle is a safety feature then why isn't a full "farmer's" cut better?

Ron


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## WidowMaker (Sep 26, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Was this a "Noisy Event"??



====

If you mean did I run screaming like a little girl, the answer is yes, yes I did....

and yes that is the most prized fire wood in these parts, though I'm partial to Lodge Pole and Red Fir myself....


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

WidowMaker said:


> ====
> 
> If you mean did I run screaming like a little girl, the answer is yes, yes I did....
> 
> and yes that is the most prized fire wood in these parts, though I'm partial to Lodge Pole and Red Fir myself....



"He who fights, and runs away, lives to fight another day..."
Hahahahahahahaha!!! I'm just glad most of the junk I deal with, ain't that vertical!!!


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## Denis Gionet (Sep 26, 2012)

rampaging-sloth said:


> Hello,
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster. I did not know if i should put this in the dropping dead stuff thread or the Cottonwood ditch thread. I have 6 dead Cottonwoods to drop. Most of the tops are gone as well as the smaller branches. Cottonwood seems to drop branches if a star shines on them funny. 5 of them are still attached to the ground. I have one leaner that is caught up in an adjacent Cottonwood. Thought i might post a few pics for you.
> 
> ...



Yeah, there's a couple of real ugly ones in there, that I wouldn't even look at without 150 feet of HD winch on a truck. Like Dominoes ready to squash you like a bug. If you tackle those standing corpses, don't become one yourself. Bring someone with experience, REAL experience, to help you on that job.



WidowMaker said:


> Her's an ugly Tamerack that collasped when we put the saw to it...Got away wth it...Lucky
> 
> 
> View attachment 254380
> ...



How much saw did you get into it ? It looks like you leaned the bar against the trunk and it blew up on you !



Hedgerow said:


> "He who fights, and runs away, lives to fight another day..."
> Hahahahahahahaha!!! I'm just glad most of the junk I deal with, ain't that vertical!!!



I knew I had heard that expression before.... never thought of applying it to tree felling though !!!


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## RandyMac (Sep 26, 2012)

I hear ya Ron.

Dead standing trees can be the bane of all, best to be avoided. 
That said.....
Not all of them can be left to fall on their own for any number of reasons. Some are hazards to life and property, others should be utilized. Step back and scope the thing out, are there are obvious hanging limbs and crap. Is the top loose? An unsteady top can "fold" back on the way down. Conifers with thick bark have the habit of shrinking, leaving a bark tube around the stem. The bark will often collapse straight down like an avalanche or peel away in great slabs. Now wedging should be a careful venture, give the wedge a whack and look up, never set up a rhythm.
It is pretty tough to get a lot of practice on snags, most guys haven't got the time or the place to play with the nasties. I did, my brother and I roamed Humboldt looking for the worst ones we could find, there were many. We called it practice, in reality, it was Sport Falling, thrill seeking some would call it. There were more than a few times, we bit into something, that tried to kill us. The learning curve is steep, go slow, be observant.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 26, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> I hear ya Ron.
> 
> Dead standing trees can be the bane of all, best to be avoided.
> That said.....
> ...



Were you guys bored? Or what??? Either way, glad you dinked with it and took mental notes...
Cause I hate dealing with dead trees!!! I'll post a pic tomorrow of one that was a miserable FAIL!!!


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## WidowMaker (Sep 27, 2012)

Had cut about about 2 bars widths(see first picture) in on the gunning cut and had pulled out to look it
over cause could tell it was hoelow, when it gavs a big pop and I left the area in a hurry.
It came down about 90* from intended, so happens I chose the right direction to escape...
Took a few minutes to recoupe and start bucking...


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 27, 2012)

Here's one of my videos from 3 years ago, and an example of what can go wrong with the dead stuff. 

I was pushing a little dead elm over that was limb locked (upper branches tangled in with other trees). I couldn't wedge it out of there, didn't want to go get the rope, so I gave it a push with the loader. The end of the video shows the tree hung up again close to the ground. What it doesn't show was right after I shut the camera off, one of the limbs being held up snapped, and the live smaller tree it was tangled in catapulted a 10' long 4" dia branch back at me, landing behind the tractor. Moral of the story: Till they're in the ash pan, they're not done trying to kill ya. Needless to say, I don't use this technique anymore, and HIGHLY recommend no one else does either.



rwoods said:


> Advice is given that assumes a higher level of reader competency than exists across the board. Example: Pulling trees - requires a skill set, tools, knowledge and experience many don't have.



Guilty, although I try to explain what I'm doing and why as best I can, I (and we as a group) need to realize that not only are our fellow AS nuts seeing this, but also Joe Homeowner that just signed up, as well as the general public. It's amazing how many times I google something related to saws or firewood and the first link is to an AS thread. Just look at the bottom of any thread and note how many guests are reading it.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vYDptUSaSoo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## Winn R (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanks to all contributing to this thread. :msp_smile:

We dropped yesterday morning a 150 year old red oak that was 30 feet from the house and had a wrong lean. It died in the drought this summer.

And went right where we wanted.


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## imagineero (Sep 27, 2012)

I have to do standing dead pretty often, and it's always residential. Sometimes we get lucky and there's room to drop, sometimes you can get a cherry picker in. In some cases there's no access and no room to work, home owner has to decide what to smash. 

Assuming you've got plenty of room to work and can drop it in any direction then favoring the lean is great. If you have to take it against the lean then be sure and take it directly opposite to the lean. Take the time to assess the weight and ballance of limbs as well as the trunk. You can pretty successfully pull over dead stuff so long as you're directly opposite the lean. If you're off to the side the hinge side snaps sometimes.

I try not to wedge them at all. It shocks the tree and can break the hinge on smaller stuff. Since there isn't much flex in a lot of dead trees you end up with a very narrow hinge more often than not, unless it's rotten which is a whole other thing. 

My preferred method is pulling over if it's not going with the lean. You want good strong bull rope and some means of tensioning it. A come along is great, as is any other sort of mechanical advantage. Winches need to be handled very carefully, and using a vehicle would be the last option for me. What I usually do is set the rope and hook it up to my mechanical advantage then stand off to the side while someone slowly tensions it. It's important to stand to the side or you wont clearly see movement in the top. Depending on the tree I'll usually tension it until the top moves anywhere between an inch and 5 inches. Then they've got the weight.

I make my gunning cut fairly deep on a pullover, about 40%. I do 2 face cuts, one from above at 45 degrees, and a second below to give me a 90 degree face. I want to keep it on the stump as long as possible. Put your best face on it, take the time and do what you need to do. Don't be afraid to mark it out, you only get one go at this. Clean out the face with a twig, make sure you've got a perfect crisp hinge. Re-cut it and make it right, there's plenty of time. Hurrying and being full of adrenaline is the cause of a lot of accidents.... People push ahead for no reason when they know they haven't quite got it right.

I make my back cut level. I start the back cut and keep an eye on it as I progess. If the kerf opens at all, they've got too much tension on the rope and I ease it off. If it closes even a little I have then inch the tension on. Control is everything on the rope, I want someone there who has a cool head and a steady hand. I keep progressing the back cut until I've got maybe 5% or less hinge depending on the tree. It's not unusual to need to come back and take a little more out of it. I pop a wedge in, but hand set it. I dont knock it. 

I step away off to the side and have the rope guy inch the tension on. Hand operated devices have the advantage here because they give you more feel and they move slow. A big which or truck wont give you feedback on whether you've left too much hinge. When it's ready, it will come smooth and steady. If you're tensioning and the kerf isn't opening then you've left too much hinge; you're going to snap the tree. Take a little off and go back and open the hinge up a bit more. If the tree isn't too bad I'll stay there and give it a little tweak as they inch until we hit the sweet spot, then I move out.

Pulling over need not happen fast, and the bigger the tree the slower it goes. Big trees need time to move. 

Shaun


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## haveawoody (Sep 27, 2012)

I think it comes down to how dead or how dead and rotten a tree is.

Is it a softwood tree or hardwood or very hardwood.
Each is going to be a different challenge to remove.

Anything that is dead gets a few long looks before i think about removing it.
On a dead tree the branches can be much more of a hazard than the tree so removing things that can fall on you while you fell cut is a practice that is IMO is a must.

Keep your escape path clean and tidy, on long dead things i try to have two clean escape paths in different directions.

I like to rap the tree with a hammer, just a small carpenters hammer for me.
The noise that hammer makes sometimes decides if i will attempt that tree or head for heavy equipment to rip it out or leave it for nature to fell.

My 5d slight downcut IMO it just makes me feel more secure that i get a wedge in a bit faster and if the tree is quite rotten inside it's a bit of a stop from going backwards.
Gives you a couple more seconds if things go really wrong. 

As for wedges on dead hardwoods i thing generally it's a good idea to get them in place ASAP.
Softwoods yes but just to stop a rock back, a couple of small wedges even on a rot beast will help stop any cracks from migrating and the tree from rocking in the wind.
With any dead tree just get the wedge's in place and don't to do much thumping on them.

IMO if you are looking at a tree for 15 minutes before you have a plan, the tree has vertical cracks or the tree has partial limbs then it's heavy equipment time or walk away and call in a professional crew time or just walk away.

Nothing wrong with being smart enough to know when to cut and when not to.
IMO dead softwoods are the most dangerous.


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## Whitespider (Sep 27, 2012)

Standing-dead leaning over the power lines...












The rigging...















The cut and pull...


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## ri chevy (Sep 27, 2012)

Cool. Nice job there with both cutting, pulling and photographing! :msp_thumbup:


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## Hedgerow (Sep 27, 2012)

This one got done, but was a FAIL, as far as doing what I wanted it to do... It took an hour, and was a learning experience... Had a rotten top with large limbs hanging to one side... Stick was leaning the other... Had to drop one way, cause I refused to work under all the large dead limbs. Fortunately, the trunk had enough good left in it to not have what Randy refers to as a "noisy event"... This tree was the one that persuaded me to get a saw that would run a 36" bar... The 24" bar reaching from both directions still would not catch the center fibers. If faced with this again, it would be a "walk away" tree, or a "get the neighbor's track loader" tree...


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## RandyMac (Sep 27, 2012)

Walking away was something I had to work at, it was hard to pass up an opportunity.
No we were not bored, this was one of the things we did for fun. My brother and I would grab a case of PBR, a couple heavy revolvers, load up big saws in a rusty, beater pick-up and head for Southern Humboldt. We spent the day hunting down big Doug Fir snags and hardwoods like Madrones or Tanbark Oaks. In that part of the county, big uglies were plentiful, the old style logging and fires left monuments everywhere. We justified some of this as lighting rod removal, some were firewood, most were left to continue rotting.


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## 802climber (Sep 27, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Standing-dead leaning over the power lines...



Not trying to be a jerk, but those look like a pretty major set of power lines...you might want to be more careful...using chain and metal cable to pull with...don't want to think about if anything had went wrong there. Would have been some fireworks and a highly conductive link, to you.


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## Larry Ashcraft (Sep 27, 2012)

Tons of good information in this thread. Thanks, guys...

I've dropped a few dead cottonwoods on our river bottom. So far, all of them have fallen right where I aimed them. My first step is to park the truck, dogs, wife and kids way out of harm's way, then I notch and backcut to take advantage of the tree's natural lean. I always clear several escape routes, and when I hear the first crack, I run like hell.  Most of the time, I just drop the saw so it doesn't slow me down.

The drought in 2002 killed at least 50 large cottonwoods on our place, so the wind has been doing my job for me the last few years. We've got enough deadfall to keep us in firewood for several more years. It takes at least five years for wood to rot on the ground here, since it's so dry (17" of rain per year is our average).


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## H 2 H (Sep 27, 2012)

Here is one of the Alders I dropped last night






It made a little noise when coming down and rotated about 60 degrees on the stump but landed in the area I wanted it to


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## WidowMaker (Sep 27, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> This one got done, but was a FAIL,



=====

No fail as long as it's on the ground and no-one or thing got hurt....:msp_thumbup:


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## rwoods (Sep 27, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> I hear ya Ron.
> 
> Dead standing trees can be the bane of all, best to be avoided.
> That said.....
> ...



I'm with you, Randy. Thank you for continuing to share your knowledge and experience with us. I guess if I were to clarify anything in my post it would be: The post was directed towards non-pros as myself; that there are many more trees to be walked away from by folks like me than by an experienced logger, fire crew member, line clearer or arborist; and that I didn't mean to imply that a hazard tree should be simply left because as you stated some must be felled. When I lived in a heavily wooded area, I routinely removed by myself every tree hazard (no matter how dangerous the removal was) as I had three little girls running around - I didn't really think at the time about the price they would have paid if I had seriously injured or killed myself in the process. But now, if a tree (or the overhead situation) is seriously questionable but nevertheless needs to come down, I hire a real pro with the tools and the crew to put it on the ground. The first time was pretty tough and cost me the price of a nice 125 but I got over it.

Ron

PS I never considered it sports falling but in my independent youth almost all I cut were standing deads and all for entertainment sake - probably not 1/10 of 1% of your sport falling and certainly toothpick size in comparison and danger.


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## rwoods (Sep 27, 2012)

*5 degree back cut*

haveawoody, I'm not trying to give you a hard time but are you sure that your 5 degree back cut is not a lot more than 5 degrees? If you take a 12" deep level back cut and instead cut a 5 degree sloping cut, it will start at a point 1.05" higher than a level cut but will only be .046" longer than a level cut. To lenghten the sloping cut to just 1/4" longer than a level cut, you would have to begin your back cut 2.462" higher and cut at an 11.594 degree angle. A 1/2" longer sloping cut would be 3.5" higher and at a 16.26 degree angle. Here's a link to a triangle calculator if you want to do some calculations. Online Triangle Calculator--Calculates angles and sides of right triangle, draws image of your triangle Ron


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## flyboy553 (Sep 27, 2012)

90% of what I cut is standing dead red oak. Very interesting to see what some of you go through to cut standing dead wood.

But I think the one thing that stands out the most to me is that you take so very much care with standing dead. I take the same precautions with standing dead as I do with live trees. It seems to me that if you are taking extra caution with a dead tree, in reality, you are not taking enough cautions with a live one. 

Branches come off of live ones, live ones can be hollow, all the same issues can be found with live ones as well as a dead one. In fact, have one standing in my yard. Some live ones need to be walked away from, too.

Just saying, use _exactly_ the same care with live as you do dead ones and you will be fine.

Ted


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## rwoods (Sep 27, 2012)

Ted, you're right. I tend to walk around and around a standing dead and think the cut through - some are sized up immediately and others I meditate on for days - but I am way too casual at times with live trees, you would think I was on production. Thanks for the reminder. Ron


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## haveawoody (Sep 28, 2012)

rwoods,

Well I'm probably pretty close to 5d, I've never measured the cut afterwards but it's no big angle.
Less than an inch on a 3ft tree.
On the dead and dying i tend to leave a bit more meat on the hinge with the finish of the cut 1/2" higher than you would with a live tree, i guess that habbit is from having a few hinge crumbles over the years.

Then using another tree i winch the beast to the ground well away from it.
Much like Whitespider has in his elm drop, just add some distance replace truck with a big tree and 10t winch.
When they come down I'm probably 50 further away than the top and behind a tree 

That is the usual plan but sometimes the tree didnt get the paperwork


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## haveawoody (Sep 28, 2012)

Whitespider,

Nice drop!
Your technique is pretty similar to mine.
Two plastic wedges, a slight downcut and plan to finish above the v with some hinge meat remaining.
Then pull it down well away from the scene.

Only difference for me is a bit more distance, winch inplace of truck and a tree as a base for the winch.
Nice to drop a tree and not be anywhere near it when it happens.


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## Whitespider (Sep 28, 2012)

Most of the time I don’t use the “truck” when working alone; I prefer to use the winch mounted to the front of that little tractor you see in the last pic. I chain the back of the tractor to a tree, and normally set it up farther back and to the side away from the drop… but in this instance I had few options. Besides, I don’t trust the hinge on standing-dead, and because it was so close to the power lines the “truck” allowed me to “pull” a lot faster than the winch… that way I can use momentum to keep the tree moving in the correct direction even if the hinge fails. By-the-way, the hinge did fail on that drop (on the side away from the truck), somewhat after the tree went over-center… but by that time I had it moving at a pretty quick rate so momentum and the continuous acceleration from the truck put it down exactly where I intended. I don’t want to “jerk” it, I want smooth but quick and continuous acceleration… tight cable near all the way to the ground. (Although, admittedly, the rapid pull probably contributed to the hinge failure… which was inconsequential at that point.)

I use the wedges as a gauge. I put quite a bit of tension on the cable after making my face-cut, and place the wedges with hand pressure as early as possible in the back-cut. Then as I continue the back-cut I watch the wedges… as soon as they “go loose” or fall out I stop cutting and start pulling. That way, depending on the condition (or strength) of the wood I’ll only cut as much as I need to, leaving as much hinge as is reasonable… reducing the chance of premature hinge failure. I’ve kind’a developed a feel… if the start of the “pull” don’t “feel” right (the tree should start moving immediately as the pull pressure increases, whether using truck, winch or come-a-long) I’ll back off a little and deepen my back-cut a bit more.

I’ve taken down several dozen standing-dead in just the last couple years, and probably close to 300 over the years. It used to be I’d lose control of an occasional one, ‘cause that’s how standing-dead can be… usually premature hinge failure or unexpected twist causing hinge failure. It wasn’t a big deal because I’m workin’ in a woodlot where the only thing I could damage was me, but then you have the extra work caused from falling where not intended to deal with. A bit over a year ago I started “pulling” near every one (the only exception is if it’s obviously leaning exactly where I want it to drop… that’s rare) and haven’t lost control of a single one since… every one has fallen right on the mark, even when the hinge fails.


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## haveawoody (Sep 28, 2012)

Whitespider,

So your identical to me for standing dead.
Only difference is you have a vehicle to mount the winch on.
I end up having to carying battery, power winch and loop chain, have thought about having something i can avoid playing battery charge and carry for years.
Just never get around to it, but every time i carry them i think about it LOL

For sure a couple of those escape trees and you really start rethinking how to remove them without removing yourself.
When i first starting cutting it was live trees so little to no chance for things getting crazy, then onto dead trees and the live tree habbits just follow.
After the first uncontrolled rotten dead tree dropped about 50 trees in i had a total rethink about them.
Looking back i was a very lucky person on the first 50 dead ones i dropped with no more than 1 semi close limb drop to the side of me.

I hear you on the power lines, nothing more fun than limiting your options even more on a tree that is already limited with options.

I've had a couple of rotten hinge crumbles since i stated with this technigue but with the winch having some tension before they went i would call them semi uncontrolled.
No fun still fell cutting while this happens though.


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## Whitespider (Sep 28, 2012)

Something else I might add...
Notice I don't rig the tree all that high up... there's a reason for that (although the bigger the tree, the higher I rig for leverage). The lower you rig, the shorter the pull at the pulling machine (whatever it is)... and the shorter the pull, the more control you have... and you can pull faster. That makes a big difference when using something that pulls relatively slow, like a winch or come-a-long. In that drop my truck only moved about 10 feet and the tree was on the ground... yet the cable stayed tight near all the way down.


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## rwoods (Sep 28, 2012)

We are blessed in my area. Any tree with a fall path that might hit a power line or anything owned by the power company, it just takes a phone call and they'll put it on the ground for you without cost to you. If it is a hazard tree, they'll also buck it to your reasonable specs, grind and haul the brush. Ron


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## rwoods (Sep 28, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> rwoods,
> 
> Well I'm probably pretty close to 5d, I've never measured the cut afterwards but it's no big angle.
> Less than an inch on a 3ft tree.
> ...



Some may call me a ninny but I have been known to hide behind the best available tree as well although it is sometimes hard to find a close one that is broad enough. Be safe. Ron


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## haveawoody (Sep 28, 2012)

rwoods,

Lol it's a time i become a tree hugger.

Good place to be also, most of the dead trees come down and become just a big pile of firewood on impact.
Others seem to explode on imact and spread flying wood all over.


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## haveawoody (Sep 28, 2012)

rwoods,

Lucky you with the power lines and company that comes and does all that for you.
Kind of makes you think about bark ringing all the ones you want taken down for you a year in advance 

Our service happens here about 1 day after the tree has fallen on the line.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Sep 28, 2012)

rwoods said:


> We are blessed in my area. Any tree with a fall path that might hit a power line or anything owned by the power company, it just takes a phone call and they'll put it on the ground for you without cost to you. If it is a hazard tree, they'll also buck it to your reasonable specs, grind and haul the brush. Ron



They'll do that around here too.



rwoods said:


> Some may call me a ninny but I have been known to hide behind the best available tree as well although it is sometimes hard to find a close one that is broad enough. Be safe. Ron




All right I will! NINNY! j/king!


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## NDtreehugger (Sep 28, 2012)

*I need to take down about 25 or 30 this week end*

All dead elms, problem is the wires are right in line with the tops of the trees.
All trees will need to be cabled and pulled to the road. 

Ill see if I can get some images.


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## Whitespider (Sep 28, 2012)

Wires? In North Dakota?
What? Did they bring in electricity after they found oil? :msp_tongue:


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## NDtreehugger (Sep 28, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Wires? In North Dakota?
> What? Did they bring in electricity after they found oil? :msp_tongue:



Yup; 

Most of the wires are under ground, hmm, If I can remember,,,
North, south wires are under ground east west above.

This may not apply to all areas but that’s how it is around here.

I guess North Dakota is smarter then the average, we never have power outages, except when they divert electricity to Canada, sometimes our brothers to the north need some extra juice.


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## chucker (Sep 28, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Wires? In North Dakota?
> What? Did they bring in electricity after they found oil? :msp_tongue:



you know its kinda funny! with all those state trees in north dakota, the ones that seem to stay in place is the ones that are tied to the ground with heavy black wire coated in rubber so it dont rust!!!! the other odd thing ive noticed driving across the windy state is the biggest majority of the trees are along the highways an back roads?? go figure? electricty also??? the next thing will probably be internet service?? lol


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## haveawoody (Sep 29, 2012)

NDtreehugger,

We had electricity here for a while.
Had a generator power lines the entire setup.

One day when i turned my TV on and forgot to turn it off the hamster died of exhaustion and that was it.
I miss Hammy but i don't miss the daily generator cleanings.


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## Denis Gionet (Sep 29, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> I guess North Dakota is smarter then the average, we never have power outages, except when they divert electricity to Canada, sometimes our brothers to the north need some extra juice.



Thanks fo da juice bro, us hosers up above the 49th plug our block heaters in until June, and start again in September .....


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## haveawoody (Sep 29, 2012)

Denis Gionet,

I've snowmobiled in mid January with 1/2 a windshield in northern ontario.
Someone needs to invent a block heater for humans for that LOL

Ooops i think it's called rum.
Doesn't keep you warm but freezing to death feels better somehow.


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## missouriboy (Sep 29, 2012)

I cut some died standing elm. There are some many died or dieing elm in my area. I hate cutting them down because you dont have much control over the tree. It could pop and go half way through the back cut it and limbs could fall out of the top and smash you into the ground and it is alot harder to aim the tree because the tree is died inside and out and cant really get any hold wood to help guide it. But man does died elm make some of hottest wood around so for some people it worth the high risk.


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## esshup (Sep 29, 2012)

Guys, a big thanks for all the info in the thread. I wish I would have read it sooner. I just finished up cleaning some storm damaged trees on a property, (only somewhere between 150 and 200 trees :msp_w00t and the owner wanted me to cut down the dead trees around his ponds. The dirt guy buried the base of a LOT of trees under 2' of dirt when he built the ponds, and so far 47 trees have died. Red Oak up to 30" dbh, Sugar Maple up to 28" dbh, Pin Oak up to 24" dbh and River Birch up to about 18" dbh. Most trees have been dead for a year, some recently died, some died almost 2 years ago. The Oaks were the worst, branches exploding when they hit the ground into little bitty pieces. We spent more time cleaning up than dropping trees. There's probably 2 ac of grass around each pond, and keeping the place clean was a priority.

I don't know what I was worried about more, the standing dead trees, or the live uprooted leaners that were hung up in other trees. Some of those were really fun to get down, and it wasn't uncommon for some of them to take a few hours to get down on the ground. No room to get equipment in, just had to cut them down, sometimes taking down a few other trees to get them safely on the ground.

I'll now keep a hammer in the "saw box" to tap on the trees. I had 2 that went without any warning, trees that were 24" or so in diameter had only 4"-5" of good wood on the outside.

I am by no means an expert, I feel that I have barely enough knowledge to keep from hurting myself, and I still am on "high alert" when the saw is fired up and put to a vertical tree. The thing that worries me the most is the dead branches falling out of the tree as I'm cutting under them. I don't have that worry in a live tree.

In a previous thread, Steve had good advice on a rope, and that helped get a few persuaded to fall in the right direction, the pully and bull rope was a great help. 

I'd say that at least 75% of my cutting is done with my 2 helpers, "myself" and "I". My nephew helped for a few weeks, but he bailed on me, I think the work was too hard for him. My cell phone is on my belt, and someone knows where I'm at, although it might take some searching on the 80 acres to find me.

Enough rambling, thanks again. It's never too late to learn something.


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## NDtreehugger (Sep 29, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> NDtreehugger,
> 
> We had electricity here for a while.
> Had a generator power lines the entire setup.
> ...


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## Cedar Row (Oct 4, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> I cut a lot of standing-dead... always tricky. Most of it is elm, a few oak... and if it's leaning, it's normally not leaning in the direction I want it to fall. Because of too many mishaps and close calls I've gone to rigging every one on a dead-head pulley, even if I have to string over 100 foot of cable to do so. The cable doesn't need to be placed real high on the tree, 10-12 feet will usually suffice. I put goodly amount of tension on the cable (come-a-long, winch, vehicle, etc.) before I start cutting, and then add even more after the face cut; the idea is to get it moving early in the direction I want it to fall... and keep it moving in that direction. Sometimes, if I think it's needed, I'll add a recovery strap to the end of the cable for the "bungee cord" effect. I want a sharp chain to make a fast back cut... the faster the better. If it's a real tricky situation I'll get some help, hook the cable to my truck (if I can), so the "help" can keep the line "pulling" on the tree all the way to the ground... near always the tree will fall right on top of the dead-head.
> 
> Right or wrong, I'm not much for using PPE, but I do put on the hardhat when I'm working under a standing-dead... they have a tendency to drop widow-makers when they start moving.


I agree with rigging. I cut dead wood in a heavily wooded lot, and don't have a lot of room to drop a tree. Hangups are aggravating and can be dangerous. I have a 8000 lb winch on my pickup. I hook the pickup to a tree, and hook to the tree 10'-12' or more depending on the tree (I carry a ladder). Like you, I put pressure on the setup before cutting. Since I usually cut alone or with my wife I leave a hinge with the tree still standing, and pull it over with the winch, so it keeps moving as the winch pulls it and I'm not standing under falling branches. Sometimes I just do the fast back cut like you if the tree isn't too difficult. With someone else to run the winch, I just do the fast back cut. This method takes some time but it is quicker than trying to dislodge a tree hung up on another tree or two.


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## haveawoody (Oct 4, 2012)

Cedar Row,

Dito for me on setup and cutting alone most of the time.
The crew just put a big X on what they want me to tackle and most times they have moved to the next job.

When you are working alone you get creative so leaving some meat on the hinge then winching it down is my standard on the dead.
Nice to be away from the scene when it comes down.

I always carry my cell though, so many things can happen cutting that i think it's a must have tool.
A simple trip on a log can leave you on the ground helpless, let alone the many nasty things that we all take time to avoid.


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## H 2 H (Oct 4, 2012)

Here is the Alder I took today 







This was about 40' tall

The center was hollow the first 8' of the tree


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## ri chevy (Oct 5, 2012)

Wow. Is that cut the one you used to fall it? Or did you make a cut up higher?


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## H 2 H (Oct 5, 2012)

ri chevy said:


> Wow. Is that cut the one you used to fall it? Or did you make a cut up higher?



That's a buck-up piece


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## ri chevy (Oct 5, 2012)

I figured that. Thanks.


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## Denis Gionet (Oct 5, 2012)

H 2 H said:


> Here is the Alder I took today
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eeewww, that's pretty yucky. I guess there was only one direction it was gonna fall, without some serious convincing .... manage to get any direction to it, or it just went where it decided ?


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## H 2 H (Oct 5, 2012)

You know wish way it went I wasn't going to do anything special with these but get them on the ground 

I talked to my Uncle about this group of trees before I started a few weeks back and he said if you find one there would be a bunch of them; this land I'm cutting on is and old dairy farm and there is something with cow chit that makes this the norm around here


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## Cedar Row (Oct 6, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> Cedar Row,
> 
> Dito for me on setup and cutting alone most of the time.
> The crew just put a big X on what they want me to tackle and most times they have moved to the next job.
> ...



Working alone does make you become creative. I am a carpenter-cabinetmaker and I work alone. It takes quite a bit of creativity to do the many things that are usually done with help from another worker.


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