# Low Impact Logging



## RatliffLogging (Mar 13, 2005)

I feel like the lone gun in the woods. Seems I am telling my clients your timber is worth 10 times what you will get to have it clear cut just using good forestry practices. The other day while asking a Guy what did they offer you he said $0.12 a bdft. I said hold up you have 11000bdft of veneer Walnut alone if you selectively cut it allowing it to mature over the next 20 years you would end up with 50-60% more timber just with the coming of size of smaller trees around that would be cut down in a clear cut. I told him the 11k bdft in walnut he has now would bring him $3.00 a bdft and up with a exporter I know and that would be also most more then the guys offered him for his 60acres worth of timber clear cut. Plus he would get the added land value of still having healthy timber....(home builders in our area pay big for this feature). I went as far as to offer him 60/40 in his favor not to let a company bring in huge machines and run down a beautiful woodlot. I guess it right now or nothing for some people. The fact that he would have seen 10-15 times the money in return didn't seem to effect his mind set. Most people don't understand low impact is still high production with a better eye for tomorrow and better marketing for today. Well I guess $40000 for a standing lot of timber is worth more then $200000 over the course of 2 years. plus being able to cut it again in 5-10 years and again 5-10 more years down the road. Does no one think of the future? Shoot me a line if we stand together on this issue.


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## caryr (Mar 13, 2005)




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## Ryan Willock (Mar 13, 2005)

Rat, I have been offering my services as a low impact select cut logger in the South West virginia area for two years and have had a resonable amount of low impact work as a result but by far and large most of the landowners I work with want to do diameter limit cuts or clear cuts. I don't handle clear cuts, I will preform "patch cuts'' which are very small clear cuts used to premote wildlife habitat or for a house or building lot but thats as close to a clear cut as I get. Most people want their money NOW and then complain about the looks and mess of a clear cut afterwards stating that they had NO IDEA what it would look like afterwards, which of course is horse sh!t as all they are interested in is the $$$.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 14, 2005)

Ryan,
Land owners kill me. They can't use a calculator. They really should start doing the math. Clear cutting never yields as much money or prime timber and a good management and lom impact logging. But it is hard to make your case when some guy is waving a check in front of them. when all you can do is tell them your buyers will pay 10 times as much with it on the landing ready to load. People are like kitchens use to be everything took time on the burner now you stick it in the nuke-a-wave, bing it's done.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 16, 2005)

Rat, thats about it. In my area with the execption of the veneer buyer you can forget starting a bidding war for your logs! You have to go to each mill find out what they'll pay and go to the highest paying one...... At least as long as he runs an honest stick! The veneer buyer in my area is a CROOK! He constantly find reasons to down grade your logs.


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## John Ellison (Mar 16, 2005)

Ratliff, between posts here and on another forum, I see that you are going from horses to a mini skidder because of the damage that the horses were doing. I am wondering what kind of damage the horses did that you wont have with the mech. skidder. Please dont take this as an attack, I am just curious.

John


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 16, 2005)

Horses exert more psi than a small rubber tired skidder or dozer.


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## John Ellison (Mar 16, 2005)

Thats what they say on paper, but go and look where horses have taken out x amount of timber and then look at where a skidder or dozer has done the same. To me the difference is obvious. I am not saying that small skidders cant do a good low impact job, just that horses (or most especially mules  can do a better one.

John


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 16, 2005)

Horses walking over the same area over and over seem to cause a rutting which after a heavy rain becomes a real problem and requires allot of up keep to prevent. I use and long lined capstan winching system most times and a small tracked unit others. When I say small I mean 2000lbs unit which carries one log(20in dia) at a time from the cutting area out. As for low impact I try to spead the course of cutting to as few as trees as I can in one area to prevent riding over the same path twice.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 17, 2005)

I read through this thread twice, just to make sure i was clear on it, but Ryan and Ratcliffe, it sounds like you guys are calling yourselves low impact yet still high grading the timber stands you get.Low impact forestry to me is far more than just the method used to extract a log. It starts with a worst first removal philosophy(in my opinion) along with a long range goal of what the timber should look like in the future, and how its going to be helped to get there by you intervening with a harvest.Telling a land owner they will do better to trickle out the high grade instead of take it all at once is still systematicaly removing the best trees. My area has a fair amount of guys running around with little skidders, loggin on shares, beatin the ever lovin snot out of the timbers they get into. Why is it okay for a logger to bring out 2 -6 buck a foot walnut and cherry, and leave the top logs lay in the timber? Should a logger only get a share of the big money logs and leave the low grade to rot, because he is too lazy or too " busy " to be bothered to find a suitable market for all of the logs that they throw down?( not calling either of you lazy, just speaking in general terms) I think using low impact as a marketing tool, yet not actually fully treating the timber that way can be mis leading...... And the part about the horse foot doing more damage than a tracked machine... Pu leeze


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

You should read my post on woodweb forestry forum from yesturday...Seems to state how my contracts read in regards to the removal of cull timber first then the mowing and grinding of undergrowth and then the ID of small saplings. This before the first grade log is taken. And yes you....either very blind or very offended that some of us also target and get clients from people who call horse logging low impact...I have a team I know they are far worse then the tracked unit I use allot of times.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 17, 2005)

Sounds like you could use some teamster lessons.When you emphasize veneer and money you come across as a high grader in disguise. If you do in fact walk the talk, then good on you. I am fully aware that I do not have any personal knowledge of what you actualy do, and can easily have formed the wrong opinion, based only on what I read here on this forum . The other forum you mentioned I do not read, but will go there and read your post. I have absolutely no problem getting work, and never will have to compete with machene types. Not my niche. I believe the defensive , thin skinned one would be you.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

Sorry for being defensive just thought you were labelling me and my work. I was a straight horse skidder for awhile but the horses started costing me the performance binders I was putting up. I also use the pricing on the veneer as a selling point as most people think that their timber is just wood. I feel that educating the seller as to what they could be getting verses what a person buying buy the stumpage would be paying in our area. People for the most part have no idea how much they are throwing away when it come to value by allowing a heavy harvest or clear cut here in KY.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 17, 2005)

Its all good , brother. I figure its always tough to converese on the net, its tough to get a true sense of how a guy is saying something. No harm to you meant. I read the thread on the other forum, and the post just before your last one is what i too often see. Selective cut just means the logger "selects "what gives him the biggest jing in the pocket.I started in this work with a mind towards utilizing low grade, as that is the most abundant resource, and I do not have to fight anybody for it. I have a sawmill, drykiln and use the wood I pull out to make flooring and molding. In essence, I high grade the low grade.I like the idea of offering forest mowing of invasives and undesireables. Cant figure out how to put hydraulics on the team though.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

I get $180 a cord for firewood so low grade is good to me. I got two mexicans who love work and do it cheap $6.00hr they can bust 6 cords a day between the two of them. It really helps to offset the costs incured in taking the cull wood and for mowing the brush.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

Also for the hydraulics I got some minanite friends who use a power pack to run hydro on a forecart....


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 17, 2005)

A few years back I read there was a guy from Kentucky that was skiddin logs with a team, and sawing every thing up at the landing on a bandmill. I have tried to remember where I saw that article and have never found it again. Any idea who that was?


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

There is a guy out in West KY. He did just that I couldn't tell you if he is still around or not. I only work east of louisville out to the mountains. The guy I am thinking of had a mizer and a couple of teams. BIG TIMBER CO's moved in west KY and have really taken over so I would be shocked if he was still around. You know it's hard to compete with the kind of cash in hand offers them guys make owners.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 17, 2005)

We just do no have that type of industry here. Is clear cutting that common by you? I have never seen that used as a management technique here, although some timbers I have looked at have been high graded so severly over the years that they might as well be cleared and start over.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 17, 2005)

With the export market so high on Hard Maple($0.80-$4.50bdft), Walnut($.80-$9.00), Hickory($0.35-$1.25), Red Oak($0.70-$2.75), White Oak($0.70-$2.75), Osage Orange($1.50-$2.90), Eastern Red Cedar($0.35-$1.75), Cherry($0.90-$6.00). Every company in the area is looking at today not tomorrow.....I don't understand allot of it but it is happening here big time. It's top dollar. I sell my grade logs for export when I can it puts smiles on the people I contract for faces. But when they but standing they short owners by paying for only for the first 12ft in every tree and paying about $0.30 on the highend......Plus it might not be a true clear cut but what they leave is not good and not usable for anything.


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## John Ellison (Mar 18, 2005)

I can see where low impact could have all different kinds of meanings but not all of them good when it comes to long term stand improvement. Such as I'm going to cream all of your large high dollar trees but there will be very little impact on anything else, all of those worthless gum will be just fine. It is a shame but a lot of landowners think that if it doesnt look like a bomb or tornado hit their woods then you did a good job. 
I believe in personal property rights, but also really believe in the "worst first" type of logging. 
In this area it is about 50/50 pine/hardwood. There are two large local (30 40mi.) pulp mills. $18 ton delivered minus $11 ton trucking= I can't log pulpwood even if it is free. In this area TSI work where the landowner pays is pretty much out of the question. 75% of the time I do yard jobs where someone buys a small acerage, builds a house right in the thickest timber and then several years later for different reasons decides that they want to take out the pine and leave the hardwood. I enjoy logging around a house. When someone has me to take the pine out of their woods its usually easy to get them to go for a worst first approach because most of the pine saw logs in this area goes by the ton, so you can buck the defect out of most of it since it is being short logged anyway. 

On the subject of low impact, there are all the things that we do and dont do that make a difference in the future of the timber stand, but there is also the things that dont really matter as much but play a big part in how the landowner sees things. Flagging off birds or wildlife nests,so you dont accidently ...  . picking up other peoples litter and disposing(up to a certain point) flag and or remove old barb wire, if the tops are not being removed for firewood then slash the limbs down to the ground and it looks a lot better. Also keeping the skid trails clean so they have "walking paths" is really appreciated. What are some other ideas?

John


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

john,
You still use skid trails....Not good. I have been using a newer item I have built which is a tracked hydro driven log carrier(1 log at a time). It makes no trail unless the ground is extremely wet and I use it like this. I start in the place deepest in the woods were I will be cutting. I load the logs using 2 come-alongs and ramps onto the carrier, then I try to drive a line using as few of turns as I can to the next spot I will be felling a tree. From there on to the next tree and so on and so on all the time trying to keep turns slow and suttle. Even after moving 100's of logs a week later you will not be able to tell I moved the logs out. The only down side to this is I do most all of my undergrowth clearing the year before as my timber management contracts are 5 year terms this really allows me to keep a truly low impact approach( if it's nasty a year oh well I got next year). I like to take my time. I try to have 5-6 contracts running at all times this way I know I am still busy but can afford to take breaks on properties. Back to the tracked carrier. Anyway on my good logs it really keeps them clean and on my crooked logs it keeps them from flipping around on the ground and tearing up more ground then should be. my carrier will do a 18' Log 24 or so with ease. My area is 80%hardwood and Cedar makes up the rest for the most part.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 18, 2005)

I dont see how you can get 18 foot of anything , one at a time or not , out of a timber, and not have a trace of your being there. You make it sound as though you levitate through the woods.A skid trail is very important to many of my clients, as it gives them access to the timber for nature trails, and they enjoy their timber more when they can actually get around in it.In one place you had asked for some input on your web site, well... here is some free advice, You state that you are Kentuckys ONLY low impact logger. That is a statement that is impossible for you to substantiate, as last time I looked Kentucky was a pretty big place. Makes you seem arrogant . So does the " my way is the only superior way to remove timber" attitude I get from your posts here.Maybe its just me , but i give opinions for free when asked.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

It is tough but a carrier is 12ft long and 5 ft wide. it's tracks are rubber and it's total weight is 3100lbs. and stands just under 2ft tall. the tracks have a ground contact area of about(120inX18inX2tracks=4320ground contact area) in inches. Then you take total weight loaded which can be as much as 7400lbs or more, divide it by 4320your ground contact area and you have total PSI ground pressure(1.72psi) that is lower then a horse or tractor by a good 4-5psi. The rubber tracks are the kicker though if they were steel they'd tear up everything. I am having a roll og film developed as soon as I use the rest up with pictures of us using the carrier this winter. Keep in mind we don't bring it out until we have removed as much undergrowth as we can the year before.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

Horse,

Using rubber tracks only came after I built a unit with steel tracks that lost a track carring a log the was 20in by 16ft. The unit broke a guide roller that caused the lost track. Steel tracks are heavy and trying to re-install one in about 12in of snow was a pain so that summer I went to a rubber design and spent the summer building it. Also the steel tracks got bent by the weight of the log the sheer of the hill and all other factors...I don't think rubber will ever give me these head aches. I hope.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 18, 2005)

I would like to see the pics. I have seen the stats on the psi of the horse hoof over the tracked equipment, and the fact is that the horse hoof is exerting the pressure over a miniscule fraction of the area that the machine is, and disturbing far less of the overall ground surface than the machine. I will readily admit that in some situations, a machine is preferable to the team, especially in extremely steep ground, or long distances to the decking site. However, in most applications, using a team from the stump to a main skid trail and another team and cart to the landing is very tough to beat for minimal impact, and leaves the site far more pleasant to be around than any equipment logged site I have ever seen.


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## Ryan Willock (Mar 18, 2005)

I don't see how you even cover expenses like that.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

My team on wet ground does enough damage that 2 years ago I stopped using them anytime we weren't in a hard freeze. I have lost 3 differant performance binders due to horse damage.....Only used them cause the land owner wanted them there. Horses are quick and easy in the hard freeze but in the softness of a thaw I get better results with my carrier. Secondly, I get good speed with the carrier and I get a longer work day with it which allows better cost reductions. My team can't do 16-18ft logs that run16in plus on the small end all day in the hills like we have here. I love my horses to much to work them to death...Plus I am a hippy.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 18, 2005)

Not sure if you are addressing me or Ratliff? I was wondering, as we talk about trying to eliminate impact while logging. What of these two common stated objections : leaving the tops uncut where they landed, instead of trimming them to reduce the visual mess, is better for the regeneration of saplings when there is heavy deer browse, and stirring up the ground during the harvest operation is beneficial to stimulate sprouting of the dormant seed bank deep in the soil.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

diesel over hydro makes me feel good at night....walking behind my hitch kills me.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 18, 2005)

Sounds like the damage done in wet conditions was due to a poor judgment call on the logging conditions, not due to the horses. If I tried to log during break up I would make a mess to. Gotta know when to stay out of the woods.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

Horse Logger,

I like to do a fall replant on the last year of my contract with a client...State pays for the supplies all I do is put a couple guys in the woods with spud bars and let them go to town. I mix the sapplings prior to giving them out to my guys and I tell them plant away. This way we end up with a more natural mix of future timber.


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## HORSELOGGER (Mar 18, 2005)

What is the average size timber that you are able to get a long term managment contract on? In the early stages are you working on an hourly or per acre basis, where the client is essentially paying you for forestry work, with harvest reciepts to come later? If so, that would be almost impossible to sell here, maybe one in 100 customers .


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

Horse,
My contracts use to be one year long until 2002. And I also let the land owner make the call on work days. This was a bad call on my part and wasn't a problem until 2002 from 98 til 02 things went good then I had a single land owner with 3 differant contracts ask me to work thru the rainy days to meet his requirements since he was marketing the highend logs himself still on the split but he want control as to the buyers. Then he took me to court saying I did huge damage because I skidded on his say. I had advised him that it was not a good idea but he knew better...you know how that goes. The judge said leave the binders and gave me a bigger split for my time but I will never allow a owner to have say over conditions of when I cut and when we lay low. I still like the owners to have options but I like to give a 5 year contract to protect their land and my binder.....


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 18, 2005)

Horse,
The undergrowth and culling is paid for by the skin of my teeth....selling of firewood and other value added items.....I have gotten good enought in the last 7 years that in 2001 I started offering it all as part of the contract and at no cost to the land owner. I don't mow the under growth but one time durine the contract but it makes a huge differance.


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## John Ellison (Mar 18, 2005)

Horselogger, I see what you mean about the uncut tops protecting new growth from deer but most woods here are full of small hardwood unless there are cattle on the place.
Ratliff, you must be on some fragile soil, sounds like muskeg. We get very few hard freezes here, but you for sure have to stop after a lot of rain and I know its worse in thawing conditions. After two or three months my skid trails look like a deer trail. Like Horselogger said these trails are valuable to the landowner. Seems crazy but I believe that I get more comments on nice walking trails than anything else. I was working with a team of flying mules but decided that I like skid trails better.  

John


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 19, 2005)

john,
When I get into cutting the undergrowth and brush out I end up with good walking paths. But not a road for say. I think it's the hippy in me but I like to think the woods like me when I am done.


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## bwalker (Mar 20, 2005)

A small skidder like a JD 440 working a piece of ground in the winter disturbs very little, if any ground. Horse logging is practiced by people up here as a hobby only. You would go hungry trying to live off horse logging. Especially on a trash first cut.
A Gafner Iron mule is another low impact machine that works very well if the ground isnt heavy.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2005)

To bad you can't go back and edit that post, eh? 

You might appear more intelligent...


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## DDM (Mar 26, 2005)

Hey Guys Pictures Please! I want to see the tracked carrier and the Horse team!


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 26, 2005)

*reply*

I have a picture of my favorite horse in my profile....He is a grey perchuron(spelling bad)...My other one is chessnut in color....I have a picture of both together somewhere on my pc if you want it email me. I am on vacation in Guam right now(condo here) as soon as I return I am going to finish out a roll of film with my carrier working in the woods there in KY. Thanks
Need to contact me while I am out 671 653 8544 here in Guam......


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## Treetop_Tom (Mar 31, 2005)

Horselogger, Ratlifflogging, & others:

You all sound like your goal is to do what I want. I have about 5-1/4 wooded acres that I jut bought adjacent to my home. My goal is sustainability, and selected cutting for heat, property improvement, and to harvest the hardwood. Okay, it's a REAL SMALL lot by your standards; but there are other wooded lots in the area and if I find someone of your bent locally, they may be able to set something up with the other landowners.

Anyway, the talk of low-impact and harvesting over time is very attractive as the area is fairly residential. Now a high-grader is what? Someone who takes only the best and leaves the rest? With my lot size, I may not have a lot of choice that way!

My big problem, as I related on another thread, is not knowing a lot about all this, especially the value. Two trees in particular threaten my house ( a walbut with about a 24" trunk and a cherry with a 30" trunk) and will have to be taken down by climbers. But there are other walnut and cherry that may have value, and I'd hate to see them go up my chimney when they could make a nice table, or clock, or floor, or some such - I like wood. There are also some Colorado spruce and Norway pines that have got to go to make way for grading and to get them away from my house - one fell on it last year.

What I'd like is to be able to walk through with a fellow and get his advice. Agree on what we'll cut, what we'll allow to flourish, what I will target for firewood, and where & what to replant. I want it to be a nice area.

Sound reasonable? Any advice?

Thanks,

Tom C.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 4, 2005)

Is there a small woodlands owners group in your state? Become associated with them and use their literature to convince people, some of them act as coperatives to manage and preserve the nature of the woodland areas.

Here's a search on the subject, if you don't find anything look at the antional gorup.

I have an aquaintance who is very active in his local chapter, contact me privatly and I can give you his contact info.


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## Tinwoodman (Apr 28, 2005)

I think there is a good middle ground between extreme LIL and the slash-and-burn high production types. I think a fellow (or company) with horses, or a small farm tractor, crawler, etc. can be careful not to trash the woods. Leave it looking like woods, keep the new growth healthy, just harvest logs on a sustained basis. It's middle-ground. What I can't stand is here, in South Carolina, when they put in a new grocery store or whatever, they take a 20-50 acre plot, clear-cut it, pile all the trees in the middle, and burn them. Shame, shame, shame. Cut trees. Use them. Make money. Sustain the future.


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## John Ellison (Apr 28, 2005)

You are right Tinwoodman, how its done has more of an effect than what it is done with. The big problem with growing more trees is the cement and asphalt.

John


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## Tinwoodman (Apr 28, 2005)

You guys should see all the trees here. Plenty. People don't seem to realize they're worth money. My closest mill that will take even good logs from residential take-downs is 37 miles from home. Up in Maine I grew up 1.5 miles from a sawmill and there is one or more in almost every town. Down here-- huge trees that no one is cutting.


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## Thor's Hammer (May 6, 2005)

On low impact logging - 
in the uk, skidding is virtually non existent now in commercial forestry as the ground damage is unnaceptable by most clients.
most work is done by 8wd low ground pressure forwaders, level of damage is negligable and they carry the cut timber rather than dragging it.
posted pic of a norcar 490, i used to have one of these, it was superb for thinning on wet or boggy sites, and would carry about 8 tonnes out without leaving a mark.


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