# How do I determine load direction?



## Saddle Mander (Sep 13, 2013)

I have a number of trees behind my house that Sandy blew down. 

The problem (for me) is they are tangled in themselves, suspended off the ground, and the roots are out of the ground.

I cut one today, assuming that the load was pushing down, but I was wrong. After FINALLY getting my bar out of the pinch and re-cutting, the root-side trunk sprang up at least 2 feet.

Clearly, I read the tree wrong.

Is there a method of making some test cuts to see where the load is so I can tell if I should cut from the top down or the bottom up?


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## lone wolf (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander said:


> I have a number of trees behind my house that Sandy blew down.
> 
> The problem (for me) is they are tangled in themselves, suspended off the ground, and the roots are out of the ground.
> 
> ...



You want to be very careful with multiple trees tangled up and under load. This situation is even challenging for a tree service. If I were you I would not want to try it alone or without good help.


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## rocketnorton (Sep 13, 2013)

imo, the pinch should've told you something... a "feeler" wedge, if cut is deep enough for one can tell you which way it wants to go... im no expert, you hopefully get a better answer than this...


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## Cfaller (Sep 13, 2013)

Cutting blow down like you are describing, with root balls and Jack strawed is a good way to get hurt or killed.

Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## bustedup (Sep 13, 2013)

There really is no how to my friend it comes with experience and being able to read the situation. The knowledge of compression and tension is key and that again comes with experience. Every situation different. 


Multiple windblow are very dangerous if your struggling then honestly you'd be better off seeking a pro faller or experienced arb guy .......less you get yourself badly hurt ......sorry not helpful as such but bro your into a very dangerous gig


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## hardpan (Sep 13, 2013)

Most of the wood I cut is storm damage. It is a dangerous tangle and slow caution is my approach. I use wedges and heavy rope/chain to prevent pinching and limit the swing movement of stressed wood. The hand tools and equipment I bring along may seem ridiculous to some, I don't care and I cut solo. Heavy equipment can help with moving or bracing but I almost never can get it to the work area. Vertical movement as you describe is difficult to hold down. The "feeler gauge" with a bar procedure can tell the stress direction, go real slow and watch the cut closely. Never put a body part above the bar as that is the direction of the basic kick-back also. Be ready for escape but you cannot outrun most snaps or swings. Complacency is your worst enemy.


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## Saddle Mander (Sep 13, 2013)

I appreciate the responses, guys.

This morning I was working on a "V". (I'm sure there's a proper word for it. Two full trees coming out of one root ball.) One tree is pretty much on the ground. The other was about 4 feet in the air. The higher one was resting on another root ball about 30 feet away, with all the branches on the other side of the ball.

I relied on the lower tree to keep the root ball in place. That lower tree is supposed to be my next project, but I admit that I'm gun-shy because I feel like I'm just guessing at the compression/tension.

(Which was the reason for my original post.)


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## JakeG (Sep 13, 2013)

If you start experiencing turbulence while cutting (ie: Your leg starts shaking cause you're nervous), just stop... And get the phone out. That's the only advice I have. The kind of cutting you're doing is beyond me. I'd have to use equipment or a vehicle to pull the blow down into a safer configuration.

The "V" you described. Co-dominant is the term you're looking for, that is, if they are similar in size.


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## bustedup (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander said:


> I appreciate the responses, guys.
> 
> This morning I was working on a "V". (I'm sure there's a proper word for it. Two full trees coming out of one root ball.) One tree is pretty much on the ground. The other was about 4 feet in the air. The higher one was resting on another root ball about 30 feet away, with all the branches on the other side of the ball.
> 
> ...



The compression/tension is the same principle as it is when bucking .......major difference is you got other things tangled and root plates..........ifn ya gonna do it ya self then I'd start by looking at "guides" that deal with bucking ......that'll give ya the basics on compression/tension.....then ya need to be looking at how ya deal with spring poles ........then how ya release etc the root plate.......then ya need to be looking at the way ya put ya cuts in ie underbuck etc .......I ain't being rude or nothing but how good ya are at handling a saw does come into it ie where ya tip is.....avoiding kickback etc etc ........the length of bar ya using 


There a hell of a lot to take into account .....hence why I said it a dangerous gig 



Every faller I know don't like working in blow down ......it not a nice day and it can go bad real quick


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## Saddle Mander (Sep 13, 2013)

JakeG said:


> The "V" you described. Co-dominant is the term you're looking for, that is, if they are similar in size.



Yep. That's it. These trees are "identical twins." 

Appreciate the vocabulary lesson.


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## bustedup (Sep 13, 2013)

Also known as a school ma'am


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## woodchuck357 (Sep 13, 2013)

You need hands-on help from someone with storm damage experience. Most timber fellers are nearly useless in handling tangles created by storms. 

I have worked a lot of storm damage tangles and am very picky about the people I work with in that stuff. Some listen, some know it all, most pro fellers fit in the later category. Experience gained from working with people who have done storm work is the only way to learn to read the forces. Even then there are still surprises in the way trees under multiple stresses react when cut. You are very lucky you only got a stuck saw.


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## RedFir Down (Sep 13, 2013)

*To keep from pinching your bar*

You probably might already know this...
One thing I do when Im not sure what the tree is going to do whether im cutting up or down is to continually push and pull your saw (3 or 4 inches is enough) in and out of the tree when you think you might get your saw stuck. As you know your bar will really start to "drag" through the wood before it gets stuck.
Its kept me out of trouble countless times!!
Hope this helps.


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## lone wolf (Sep 13, 2013)

Hell we just use 3 or 4 saws, if one gets stuck take the powerhead off and grab another saw! And if anyone is going to say anything like they never get a saw stuck they ain't been cutting long enough and is a liar.


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## Saddle Mander (Sep 13, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> You probably might already know this...
> One thing I do when Im not sure what the tree is going to do whether im cutting up or down is to continually push and pull your saw (3 or 4 inches is enough) in and out of the tree when you think you might get your saw stuck. As you know your bar will really start to "drag" through the wood before it gets stuck.
> Its kept me out of trouble countless times!!
> Hope this helps.



Actually, that helps a lot. Thanks.


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## Cfaller (Sep 13, 2013)

RedFir Down said:


> You probably might already know this...
> One thing I do when Im not sure what the tree is going to do whether im cutting up or down is to continually push and pull your saw (3 or 4 inches is enough) in and out of the tree when you think you might get your saw stuck. As you know your bar will really start to "drag" through the wood before it gets stuck.
> Its kept me out of trouble countless times!!
> Hope this helps.



I believe this is called reaming. It works very well when dealing with top bind.

Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## Gologit (Sep 13, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Most timber fellers are nearly useless in handling tangles created by storms.



Maybe in your part of the country that's true. You've probably seen quite a few of them and you're obviously not impressed. Ever see any out here? It's a little different deal.

Out here I know I'd rather have a timber faller cutting blowdown than I would anybody else. I've cut in blowdown patches like the ones below and they're no place for a guy who doesn't know exactly what he's doing. To me, that means a good steady going experienced _timber faller_.
I don't think I'd put some self styled "tree trimmer" into messes like these:

View attachment 314196




View attachment 314197


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## treeslayer2003 (Sep 13, 2013)

hate to tell ya but fallers cut blow down all the time, I did a trailer load yesterday. 
OP start at the top if it low enuff to safely do so, that will relieve some of the tension. if the stumps allways want to go back down then you want to under cut first then finish on top. if they bben layin a while some time the stump want to fall towards the tree, that is more dangerous imo.
be carefull, everything ya foolin with is much hevier than ya think.

oh, cut any saplings off the root ball, ya be sorry if ya don't.


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## madhatte (Sep 13, 2013)

I'd say that the VAST majority of the cutting I've done has been blowdowns. I'm probably way down from the top of the list as far as expertise goes, but I can still offer a couple of tips. First: whenever possible, if you have multiple binds, work from the small/top end down/back. Not only will it release the tension more slowly and with less drama, it will hit you less hard if you mess up. Second: whenever possible, tuck yourself behind something immovable (like another tree) when you release tensions. That way you have something to take the hit for you if you mess up. Third, pay attention to the pinch; the tree wants to fling in the opposite direction, so don't be there when it does. Finally, if you have to cut something with several binds, you'll likely miss at least one. Try to have cut your way to that spot so that there is a safe place to hide, and an escape route.


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## rwoods (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander, not a logger so ignore this if you wish but if you are determined to go it alone, you should first have basic bucking knowledge and skills. If you are good there then start with the least dangerous trees and apply the general principles given by the above. Handling storm damaged trees safely is learned more from hands on experience than general theorizing. Nevertheless, misjudging the tension or overlooking another hazard is part and parcel of this kind of cutting. But you must survive each experience to gain the skills. It doesn't take much to kill you and size doesn't always matter. Just a few years back while assisting the county open roads after a tornado, I was side falling a damaged tree and failed to notice a 1" or so sapling under tension. When the tree fell the sapling was released and hit me right between the eyes. It almost knocked me out with a running saw in my hands. It could have easily knocked the saw into me if it had hit the saw. Now take that force and multiply it by the tension of a larger limb or tree and it could easily kill you or break a bone or two. Before the day was out a fellow cutter was bucking the top of a large tree that I had just cut from the root ball. It rolled and broke his foot. He thought I was the one doing all of the dangerous cutting. A costly lesson for him. It could have ended his career as a full-time professional firefighter. Thankfully it didn't, but it did sideline him for weeks.

I took the long way around the barn to say this: if this work is expected to be a one time experience for you then just cut the trees you are sure about and hire out the rest. Ron


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## lfnh (Sep 13, 2013)

internet stuff and your hurricane windthrowns isn'tthe place to get basic stuff down.
Find someone with solid experience to show you safe way to saw this stuff up or just leave it be if it's not a danger.


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2013)

Blow down is a lot of tension everywhere. Like the others said clear all the little stuff from around the bigger ones. That little stuff is big enough to kill you when it springs loose at 200 mph. It's just like being whipped with a switch when you were a kid except with a ton or two of force to hit you.


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

I thought load direction was determined by where the mill is?:wink2:

Our timber fallers are also good at cutting blowdown.


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## rwoods (Sep 13, 2013)

slowp said:


> I thought load direction was determined by where the mill is?:wink2:
> 
> *Our timber fallers are also good at cutting blowdown*.



You mean they don't just leave that timber for the termites? :msp_wink: Ron


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

This guy is mostly a road builder, but sometimes falls and skids and does whatever. I followed behind on that cold day and whacked up what he cut up so it could get thrown out of the way. We did what seemed to be a really long stretch. The cat was at the other end, of course, and when he hoofed it up to get it, it refused to start..of course. 

This video was before I had a camera that did talkies.
[video=youtube_share;3Beocx0KiOw]http://youtu.be/3Beocx0KiOw[/video]

This happens in the winter. We figure it was a microburst because it happened in a relatively small area. Because it was on Forest Service, it was left for firewood cutters and termites. We just had to get the road opened up.


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

More jiggly video. Long bars are a very good thing to have when cutting blowdown. Like a 40 foot bar would be nice sometimes.

[video=youtube_share;tJZmEV3vXBw]http://youtu.be/tJZmEV3vXBw[/video]


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## Gologit (Sep 13, 2013)

slowp said:


> I thought load direction was determined by where the mill is?:wink2:
> 
> Our timber fallers are also good at cutting blowdown.



I like your little emoticon for the fallers. Very appropriate. Just a tiny bit sarcastic, but accurate.


We need one for the foresters, too. I like :msp_mad:. Or maybe  How about :rant:

Can anybody think of any others?


Back on topic...blowdown bites.


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## rwoods (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander, if you watch Slowp's clips you should notice in addition to the cutter standing clear at least three other things: The cutter is constantly assessing and re-assessing both the big picture and the immediate task; he is purposeful; and he is methodical. Ron


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## woodchuck357 (Sep 13, 2013)

I thought about telling him to start with the little stuff, then I remembered seeing more people hurt from limbs under tension than trunks, so figured the best advice on how to do this one is none.

By the way there are these things called vehicles that transport people and tools all over the country to work or play, just because someone choses to live on the west coast doesn't mean they are idiots that have never worked any other place.


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

rwoods said:


> Saddle Mander, if you watch Slowp's clips you should notice in addition to the cutter standing clear at least three other things: The cutter is constantly assessing and re-assessing both the big picture and the immediate task; he is purposeful; and he is methodical. Ron



He'd also just got out of a hospital and had one collapsed lung and some healing up ribs from a non-work related crash. Owie.


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

[video=youtube;jdg9MoIxxbU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdg9MoIxxbU&feature=share&list=UU9mFXlXjEJvJoCImQvFXVSg[/video]


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## HuskStihl (Sep 13, 2013)

I am pretty much an expert at trying things I have no business doing and luckily surviving. If you're bound and determined, be like me and assume you're going to get it wrong. Go really slowly, use a long bar to keep your vital organs as far from the tension as possible. Pound in a wedge as soon as you have room if you think if your bar might get pinched, go really slowly. Think every step through, don't climb on the stuff if you don't have to, wear a helmet, and go really slowly.

Woodchuck, I like you, and have received very helpful advice from you in the past, but why start in with the fallers on the logging forum? I'm sure people who do storm cleanup for a living are very good at blowdown, and I'd bet people who log for a living would be pretty good at dealing with blowdown as well. We should all start by agreeing that that huskstihl guy is probably *not* good at handling blowdown. I can tell you from experience, he doesn't listen, or work well with others


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

[video=youtube;0mGNdr4cE0A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mGNdr4cE0A&feature=share&list=UU9mFXlXjEJvJoCImQvFXVSg[/video]


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## RVALUE (Sep 13, 2013)

A couple days ago, I took down about 30 trees, and _created_ a blow down effect. If a scrounger decides to tackle the mess, it might be bad.




My job was to put them on the ground, and they did their own thing. He has a tractor to dissect the mess.


Tarry on.


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## madhatte (Sep 13, 2013)

Gologit said:


> We need one for the foresters, too. I like :msp_mad:. Or maybe  How about :rant:
> 
> Can anybody think of any others?



Aw, now that's just not fair. You know very well Loggers wouldn't get anything done without the supreme wisdom of Foresters to tell them where and when to cut. That's why God invented flagging tape and spray paint.


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## slowp (Sep 13, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Aw, now that's just not fair. You know very well Loggers wouldn't get anything done without the supreme wisdom of Foresters to tell them where and when to cut. That's why God invented flagging tape and spray paint.



and :coffee:


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## madhatte (Sep 13, 2013)

slowp said:


> and :coffee:



Awright, yeah, can't argue with that. I am seldom seen before noon without a cup of coffee in my hand. A car cup, empty, clipped to my vest with a carabiner, finishes the day.


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## Gologit (Sep 13, 2013)

Dammit, there's no DONETTOS emoticon.


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## Saddle Mander (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm really appreciating the wisdom you guys are offering.

I'm kinda addicted to this site and spend WAY too much time here, but there's always just "a little bit more" that I want to check out before I click off. (And not just the WTF pictures!)

I've learned a LOT from this site. One of the biggest things I've learned is that there is a LOT that I don't know. And, more importantly, I've learned that much of what I don't know can kill me.

So when I have a morning like this morning where I realize that there's a lot going on that I don't have enough experience to see, I figure I should run it past guys who actually know what they're doing.


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## HuskStihl (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander said:


> I'm really appreciating the wisdom you guys are offering.
> 
> I'm kinda addicted to this site and spend WAY too much time here, but there's always just "a little bit more" that I want to check out before I click off. (And not just the WTF pictures!)
> 
> ...



I used to do the same thing, but they'd always say "that's too dangerous, you don't have enough trigger time." I'd do it anyway, #### it up, and hope someday to prove the boys wrong. Before I kill myself. Stay safe


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## northmanlogging (Sep 13, 2013)

Saddle Mander said:


> I'm really appreciating the wisdom you guys are offering.
> 
> I'm kinda addicted to this site and spend WAY too much time here, but there's always just "a little bit more" that I want to check out before I click off. (And not just the WTF pictures!)
> 
> ...



Somebody already said it... but pick the easy ones, watch what happens with each cut, re assess after every cut, work slow and always have an escape route preferably 2, don't start cutting with #### hanging over your head, if possible work from the top of the pile down if not work the edges until everything is on the ground. If its still in the air it can fall on you, on the ground things will roll and slide but that is more predictable to some extent.

Above all stay alert, #### happens and it happens fast, you start getting tired or scared back off or call it a day.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 13, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Dammit, there's no DONETTOS emoticon.


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## paccity (Sep 13, 2013)

lfnh said:


> internet stuff and your hurricane windthrowns isn'tthe place to get basic stuff down.
> Find someone with solid experience to show you safe way to saw this stuff up or just leave it be if it's not a danger.



damn strait there,.


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## lfnh (Sep 13, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


>



nah

needs a chomp taken out and squished


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## paccity (Sep 13, 2013)

throw some vine in to it to make it more of a puzzle .:msp_wink:


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## lfnh (Sep 14, 2013)

yeah, vines. one that got missed is always a doosie.

vines and loaded wood a good reason to have someone along to keep you out of trouble. phone. cool headed lookout.


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## twochains (Sep 14, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Most timber fellers are nearly useless in handling tangles created by storms.



Seriously? Just exactly what type of storm damage are you talking about? I assume residential? Before you made your rather harsh "blanket statement" you probably should have asked yourself when the last time a "Tree Service" did a Forest Service bid in a blowdown unit. 

I just recently cut 54 pole trailer loads in 14 days straight on a Forest Service blow down job... glad to know I'm in the "Nearly Useless" category.


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## RandyMac (Sep 14, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> You need hands-on help from someone with storm damage experience. Most timber fellers are nearly useless in handling tangles created by storms.
> 
> I have worked a lot of storm damage tangles and am very picky about the people I work with in that stuff. Some listen, some know it all, most pro fellers fit in the later category. Experience gained from working with people who have done storm work is the only way to learn to read the forces. Even then there are still surprises in the way trees under multiple stresses react when cut. You are very lucky you only got a stuck saw.



This is a double tapered item, best step over it.


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## imagineero (Sep 14, 2013)

You've already received some good answers. The binds are so hard to read in blowdown, and it's often compound bind too. The tree maybe top bound, side sprung, and wanting to twist all at the same time, and as you cut it and other things shift the bind may change again. You can get some good advice by posting pics here, try to include as many angles as you can and you might learn something. There are no rules, because there's so many exceptions to each one... so nobody can really lay out guidelines for this sort of stuff. Do look at it a lot, step back, look more. Think about how it's going to shift. Uplifted root crowns are especially dangerous. 

Shaun


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## Gologit (Sep 14, 2013)

RandyMac said:


> This is a double tapered item, best step over it.



Yup, or maybe push it out of the way with the side of your boot so nobody else steps in it.


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## RandyMac (Sep 14, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Yup, or maybe push it out of the way with the side of your boot so nobody else steps in it.



brown paper flagging


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## 1270d (Sep 14, 2013)

One of the guys didn't make it off the landing one day, and left some "brown paper flag" there. A little bit later the forester came by and saw the flagging and not the product. He pocketed the rags. Messy loggers. Always cleaning up after em.


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## bustedup (Sep 14, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> I thought about telling him to start with the little stuff, then I remembered seeing more people hurt from limbs under tension than trunks, so figured the best advice on how to do this one is none.
> 
> By the way there are these things called vehicles that transport people and tools all over the country to work or play, just because someone choses to live on the west coast doesn't mean they are idiots that have never worked any other place.



Well for my sins I have worked on both coasts and not just in the states ............I wonder ifn you been fired from a falling crew or never made the grade that you always being rude to fallers???


Well in response to your rudeness ......my answer ......good scots saying (west coast one even) ......Away and raffle yer doughnut ya numpty ............


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## roberte (Sep 14, 2013)

bustedup said:


> Well for my sins I have worked on both coasts and not just in the states ............I wonder ifn you been fired from a falling crew or never made the grade that you always being rude to fallers???
> 
> 
> Well in response to your rudeness ......my answer ......good scots saying (west coast one even) ......Away and raffle yer doughnut ya numpty ............



 opcorn:


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## slowp (Sep 14, 2013)

Donut raffle. Yummmy.


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## 1270d (Sep 14, 2013)

slowp said:


> Donut raffle. Yummmy.



I'll give five bucks for a dozen since it a raffle


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## 056 kid (Sep 14, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> You need hands-on help from someone with storm damage experience. Most timber fellers are nearly useless in handling tangles created by storms.
> 
> I have worked a lot of storm damage tangles and am very picky about the people I work with in that stuff. Some listen, some know it all, most pro fellers fit in the later category. Experience gained from working with people who have done storm work is the only way to learn to read the forces. Even then there are still surprises in the way trees under multiple stresses react when cut. You are very lucky you only got a stuck saw.



You are kidding right? Maybe the "fallers" over there in flat land are ignorant. But a good faller is going to know more about bind and how to deal with it than anyone else I can think of. Lots of timber cutters have had the pleasure of cutting whole jobs of nothing but blowdown timber, some last years at a time. But they wouldnt know right? Jesus...
To the op, get Doug Dents book and read up.


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## treeslayer2003 (Sep 14, 2013)

nope, bolwdown on flatland still tricky. I think Randy got it right, jus step over it.


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## paccity (Sep 14, 2013)

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## hammerlogging (Sep 14, 2013)

I cant believe that guy said that and obviously has never hung out among professional fallers. 

What, you gonna bring a yard guy and a cub scout handbook?

"#### me dead", as an old aussie friend would say. 

Don't forget the rake.


To the poster, I wish I could come do this for you. Maybe you can find a pro thats closer, to take care of the techinical stuff, get everything on the ground for you. Work out a trade instead of cash if its better. Otherwise, be safe and best to you.


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 15, 2013)

When I first started logging I got broke in on a massive blow down sale, you name it, it was piled up. Now take it in context but every situation is different I did learn on really bad piles of trees all balled up that sometimes it's better to measure out everything and start from the tops down if the situation allows less loading in tops that are free. Don't use this advise as etched in stone but maybe another way to look at a problem. Good luck...


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