# Stihl MS 291 burnt out after 1 hr



## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

Our 028AV crapped the bed after 30 years of dedicated service. My father bought a brand new MS 291 to replace it. This thing was terrific for 1 hr of use, and then on the second outing, about a month ago,I was bucking up a fairly large spruce. After I felled the tree, I worked the saw pretty stead for about 10 minutes limbing up and cutting the trunk into 16" lengths. I had the saw pretty well buried into the lower trunk when I start to see smoke coming out around the bar area. This whole time the chain had been moving, the brake was off and there were no signs of any problems.
First I check the bar oil (check) and chain brake (0ff). The chain tension was just fine, but there is a lot of resistance when trying to rotate chain by hand. So I rip into it and find a bunch of burnt up plastic around the sprocket area. It goes without saying that there was OEM Stihl two stroke properly mixed in the gas. I mean this is a brand new saw. So I send it over to my dealer who we originally purchased it from and wait. A month later they come back and say Stihl won't cover the repairs. Stihl claims that I was overreving the saw with the chain brake engaged. Are you kidding me? I've been running Stihl saws since I was 12 and there is no way this is the case. 
The estimate for the repair is $541.90 so the saw is basically an assembled inventory of parts that is quite worthless to us. Parts that would need replacing are the chain sprocket, needle cage, worm gear, oil pump, engine housing, various oil seals, the brake band and the clutch.
So as of now my father is out about $500 while getting 1 hr of use out of this brand new high end saw. Stihl just doesn't make 'em like they used to (I ran an 031 and a 1970's 041 farm boss for many years without incident) and I feel that they obviously don't care about retaining customers after this experience. I'd love to hear others' theories on what might have happened, because Stihl's version is not what happened. I am going to call Stihl directly on Monday and try to work this out because I think there was some sort of internal failure that caused this overheat. I will post updates if there is anything to update.

One thing I want to be clear on is that my local dealer did everything they could to try to get this covered for me, but in the end Stihl made the decision not to cover it. 

Pictures to follow.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)




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## BugaBoots (Jan 25, 2015)

Curious to hear how this goes for you after talking to stihl.


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## juttree (Jan 25, 2015)

We've got two of them and they are very very skimpy with the oil delivery rate, add that to a bar buried in some sappy spruce and your talking some serious heat. We almost never reach for the 291's


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## lone wolf (Jan 25, 2015)

west041 said:


> Our 028AV crapped the bed after 30 years of dedicated service. My father bought a brand new MS 291 to replace it. This thing was terrific for 1 hr of use, and then on the second outing, about a month ago,I was bucking up a fairly large spruce. After I felled the tree, I worked the saw pretty stead for about 10 minutes limbing up and cutting the trunk into 16" lengths. I had the saw pretty well buried into the lower trunk when I start to see smoke coming out around the bar area. This whole time the chain had been moving, the brake was off and there were no signs of any problems.
> First I check the bar oil (check) and chain brake (0ff). The chain tension was just fine, but there is a lot of resistance when trying to rotate chain by hand. So I rip into it and find a bunch of burnt up plastic around the sprocket area. It goes without saying that there was OEM Stihl two stroke properly mixed in the gas. I mean this is a brand new saw. So I send it over to my dealer who we originally purchased it from and wait. A month later they come back and say Stihl won't cover the repairs. Stihl claims that I was overreving the saw with the chain brake engaged. Are you kidding me? I've been running Stihl saws since I was 12 and there is no way this is the case.
> The estimate for the repair is $541.90 so the saw is basically an assembled inventory of parts that is quite worthless to us. Parts that would need replacing are the chain sprocket, needle cage, worm gear, oil pump, engine housing, various oil seals, the brake band and the clutch.
> So as of now my father is out about $500 while getting 1 hr of use out of this brand new high end saw. Stihl just doesn't make 'em like they used to (I ran an 031 and a 1970's 041 farm boss for many years without incident) and I feel that they obviously don't care about retaining customers after this experience. I'd love to hear others' theories on what might have happened, because Stihl's version is not what happened. I am going to call Stihl directly on Monday and try to work this out because I think there was some sort of internal failure that caused this overheat. I will post updates if there is anything to update.
> ...


looks like you can fix that your self if Stihl dont . It wont cost that much . I aint so sure the engine housing is wrecked.


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## computeruser (Jan 25, 2015)

Total bummer. Keep on it w/ Stihl, I have to believe that this should be able to be addressed.

Alternatively, if you buy something else, don't buy a plastic-cased homeowner saw. If nothing else, you won't have the risk of melting an engine housing when the housing is made of metal...


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## pro94lt (Jan 25, 2015)

That's a shame. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like I've seen a lot of threads like this with homeowner stihl saws lately.


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## jackjcc (Jan 25, 2015)

The case can be cleaned up and the parts replace. It isn't terribly difficult to do. Just order in the parts the dealer said you need and watch a few YouTube videos on it. If that doesn't work for you I'm guessing there a person or two on here who would do the work for a small fee. 

Bad deal that stihl isn't standing behind it.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys. I am going to work the phones with Stihl before I start getting into a self repair. I have done quite a few repairs on the 041s and 031s but I almost never work on brand new saws, and it was still within the warranty period which is why I didn't mess with it at all and brought it straight back to the dealer. 

To be quite honest it wasn't even that big of a spruce. It was probably about 16" diameter. I just can't believe that Stihl would say I overreved with a stationary chain. That's chainsaw 101, always keep the chain moving...


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## Nitroman (Jan 25, 2015)

If the chainbrake was applied, how could you over-rev the saw? You'd smoke the clutch, but not melt everything around it.


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## Rockjock (Jan 25, 2015)

I have seen this before and it looks like the sap did the saw the damage. I agree it is not that bad of a repair. It looks like the sap got into the innards and just became like cement. clean it up really well and then report back.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> I have seen this before and it looks like the sap did the saw the damage. I agree it is not that bad of a repair. It looks like the sap got into the innards and just became like cement. clean it up really well and then report back.



Thanks for the alternative theory. I was totally befuddled by the chain brake excuse. I was looking for alternative theories and no one at the shop could provide me with one other than the chain brake was on. Which is completely idiotic to me.

Sap seems like a very likely culprit, November was quite mild in Maine and before you get consistent cold temps the spruces are pretty sappy and hard to buck up.


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## lone wolf (Jan 25, 2015)

Tell Stihl if they don't replace it you will run it with no brake because they refused to help you get it back to being safe!


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## jackjcc (Jan 25, 2015)

west041 said:


> Thanks for the input guys. I am going to work the phones with Stihl before I start getting into a self repair. I have done quite a few repairs on the 041s and 031s but I almost never work on brand new saws, and it was still within the warranty period which is why I didn't mess with it at all and brought it straight back to the dealer.
> 
> To be quite honest it wasn't even that big of a spruce. It was probably about 16" diameter. I just can't believe that Stihl would say I overreved with a stationary chain. That's chainsaw 101, always keep the chain moving...


Yeah, but stihl has to deal with joe smoe that doesn't know 1 of chainsaw 101, but still buys their product.


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## cuttinties (Jan 25, 2015)

Nitroman said:


> If the chainbrake was applied, how could you over-rev the saw? You'd smoke the clutch, but not melt everything around it.



45 seconds on fast idle with the chain brake will cause a fire.


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## rjames (Jan 25, 2015)

Nitroman said:


> If the chainbrake was applied, how could you over-rev the saw? You'd smoke the clutch, but not melt everything around it.


I was thinking the same thing. Could the spruce chips/bar oil have somehow blocked the oil flow and lead to the overheat?
I cannot imagine stihl and the dealer both leaving you high and dry?
Good luck!


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## Chris-PA (Jan 25, 2015)

computeruser said:


> Alternatively, if you buy something else, don't buy a plastic-cased homeowner saw. If nothing else, you won't have the risk of melting an engine housing when the housing is made of metal...


There's not much risk of that on a plastic cased saw if it doesn't have an inboard clutch either. There's a reason we only read these melted case stories about plastic Stihl saws. 

A clutch is a friction device. It should not be slipping if things are working correctly, but given it is on the output of a several HP engine it has the capability of getting very hot very fast. To put that up next to a case material that melts at a fairly low temperature is an obvious design compromise.


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## Rockjock (Jan 25, 2015)

west041 said:


> Thanks for the alternative theory. I was totally befuddled by the chain brake excuse. I was looking for alternative theories and no one at the shop could provide me with one other than the chain brake was on. Which is completely idiotic to me.
> 
> Sap seems like a very likely culprit, November was quite mild in Maine and before you get consistent cold temps the spruces are pretty sappy and hard to buck up.




The sap heats up and the water is " boiled " away and it just become harder, coats the brake band and slowly builds up. gets hotter and then begins to bind things up. a good cleaning, perhaps place the power head in a plastic bag and then place it into the fridge get the nice and cold the sap will break off easier. then make a list of the parts you need. I do not blame Stihl as much as I would blame the dealer. If you identify the problem correctly then you can easily get the issue solved. The dealer is asked what they think happened to the unit, Stihl can only base if the saw is worth repairing from what they said. A good cleaning will show you pretty quickly if it is indeed melted or just coated in sap. From the photos I can see you need a new oiler gear, dunno if the brake band is toast, clutch may need a good tear down and cleaning. If you are very lucky all that would be needed are a few parts and a good cleaning.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> The sap heats up and the water is " boiled " away and it just become harder, coats the brake band and slowly builds up. gets hotter and then begins to bind things up. a good cleaning, perhaps place the power head in a plastic bag and then place it into the fridge get the nice and cold the sap will break off easier. then make a list of the parts you need. I do not blame Stihl as much as I would blame the dealer. If you identify the problem correctly then you can easily get the issue solved. The dealer is asked what they think happened to the unit, Stihl can only base if the saw is worth repairing from what they said. A good cleaning will show you pretty quickly if it is indeed melted or just coated in sap. From the photos I can see you need a new oiler gear, dunno if the brake band is toast, clutch may need a good tear down and cleaning. If you are very lucky all that would be needed are a few parts and a good cleaning.



Thank you for the very detailed advice. This will come in handy if I do have to do the repair myself. I know Stihl has to draw a line somewhere and not cover idiot homeowner mistakes. The dealer just did their job, to say what they think happened. I really shouldn't be surprised that the dealer couldn't get this covered. What will help is me calling the Stihl representative and telling them exactly what happened. If they still stonewall me then I am going to be very disappointed. If they cover the repairs then it will reinforce what I've always thought of Stihl - that they have a good product and they back it up. I honestly have never had a problem with their product before. I've owned four saws made in "West Germany" and they all had hundreds if not thousands of hours on them and the only work I ever had to do was on wear items (carburetors, recoils, etc). I always felt that the only way to kill an old Stihl was to drop a tree on it or put straight gas in it.


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## pantelis (Jan 25, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> Tell Stihl if they don't replace it you will run it with no brake because they refused to help you get it back to being safe!


They dont give a **** , i know very well, they just tell run it how you want, if you want to fix it this is the cost


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## Weesa20 (Jan 25, 2015)

Show pics of the side of the sprocket drum where the chain brake band rubs and the chain brake band. A monster saw like the 291 will easily pull through a baby spruce with the chain brake engaged, even faster if it has the FARM BOSS sticker!


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## pro94lt (Jan 25, 2015)

Just put it on eBay as a parts saw probably bring more than you gave for it lol


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## Stihl99 (Jan 25, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> The sap heats up and the water is " boiled " away and it just become harder, coats the brake band and slowly builds up. gets hotter and then begins to bind things up. a good cleaning, perhaps place the power head in a plastic bag and then place it into the fridge get the nice and cold the sap will break off easier. then make a list of the parts you need. *I do not blame Stihl as much as I would blame the dealer. If you identify the problem correctly then you can easily get the issue solved. The dealer is asked what they think happened to the unit, Stihl can only base if the saw is worth repairing from what they said.* A good cleaning will show you pretty quickly if it is indeed melted or just coated in sap. From the photos I can see you need a new oiler gear, dunno if the brake band is toast, clutch may need a good tear down and cleaning. If you are very lucky all that would be needed are a few parts and a good cleaning.



That is exactly what I was thinking, Stihl or any OEM for that fact relies on info sent to them through their authorized dealers, reps, and repair centers, so the big question is what did your dealer tell Stihl their diagnosis was?
If I was you I would demand to see the dealer's diagnostic report they sent to Stihl.


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## pantelis (Jan 25, 2015)

Stihl99 said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking, Stihl or any OEM for that fact relies on info sent to them through their authorized dealers, reps, and repair centers, so the big question is what did your dealer tell Stihl their diagnosis was?
> If I was you I would demand to see the dealer's diagnostic report they sent to Stihl.


Burning saw from an unkown reason, the heavyweight 90% fall to the customer . now you see diagnostic report


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## AKDoug (Jan 25, 2015)

I should just stay out of this, but none of the scenarios listed in this thread are Stihl's fault. They cannot control how clean a customer keeps a saw or if it's filled up with junk. From the picture evidence that I can see, it needs a new bearing, brake band, worm gear and probably and oil pump. 15 minutes of work and $60 worth of parts. This is a good case of why it's a good idea to inspect and clean saws when they are being done being used, particularly with sappy softwood.


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 25, 2015)

Hmmmmm....






brand new saw out on it's first rental from a local company, he cut the tree down with the brake on
just sayin
Dave


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## Nitroman (Jan 25, 2015)

Okay, that prolly won't buff out...


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## pro94lt (Jan 25, 2015)

Op so it's possible you ran the new saw with brake on?


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## rmh3481 (Jan 25, 2015)

Is it possible the brake hit while you were running it and you didnt catch it?


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## Weesa20 (Jan 25, 2015)

rmh3481 said:


> Is it possible the brake hit while you were running it and you didnt catch it?



That's why I want to see the side of drum and the brake band....it will be clear if it was left on and the heat from the brake plus the sap could easily damage the plastic as in the picture. I have abused the **** out of a MS290 and it keeps coming back for more. I have a 291 in the garage and it is built similarly to the MS290 (drive line anyway, engine is completely different). I'm usually anti-corporation in these scenarios, but I can't imagine another scenario that could result in the damage...


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 25, 2015)

the modern saws have a lot less travel in the brake handle so they trip quick enough for the regulations
Dave


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## beermeatguns (Jan 25, 2015)

I see it atleast once a month, it happens more frequently in the winter when guys
are out cutting with gloves on. They bump the chain brake and fry the drive side of the saw.


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## Nitroman (Jan 25, 2015)

Yikes. My first post on this thread, I was dubious that could happen, in that the saw would still turn the chain over. I was wrong. My 394 and 3120 won't move the chain at all when the brake is on.


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## RandyMac (Jan 25, 2015)

typical inboard clutch design flaw


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## SteveSS (Jan 25, 2015)

Hard to tell from the pics if it's accumulated tree sap that boiled and burned, or if it's blistered plastic from running with the brake on. If I were a claims adjuster at Stihl Corporate, I'd need more definitive proof. Like, toss it in an ultrasonic cleaner and show me before and after pics to prove the tree sap theory. Without real proof like that, I'd be in the "ran it with brake on"camp. Not saying that the OP is a doofus though, because like someone else said......winter time, gloves, loss of sense of feel, etc. It happens. I'd be more inclined to fix it myself than pay labor fees though.


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## banana boat (Jan 25, 2015)

My ms460 will not move the chain if the brake is on even if the saw is at full throttle, how could you cut with the brake on? Actually now that I think of it the manual says to test the brake ingage the brake while the saw is at full throttle and it should stop the chain immediately, never tired seems like it would be a lot of stress on parts.


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## lone wolf (Jan 25, 2015)

Nitroman said:


> Yikes. My first post on this thread, I was dubious that could happen, in that the saw would still turn the chain over. I was wrong. My 394 and 3120 won't move the chain at all when the brake is on.


That explains w


banana boat said:


> My ms460 will not move the chain if the brake is on even if the saw is at full throttle, how could you cut with the brake on? Actually now that I think of it the manual says to test the brake ingage the brake while the saw is at full throttle and it should stop the chain immediately, never tired seems like it would be a lot of stress on parts.


Then that puts Stihl in a bad position now dont it! It aint supposed to do it but they say he did it.


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## ckelp (Jan 25, 2015)

my aunt let a "friend" barrow her 391. her friend let the day labor run it, he ran it with the chain brake on for two cuts and did identical damage.
id take pics of the saw but i'm watching the kid and i'm lazy


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## juttree (Jan 25, 2015)

Dull chain+sap+no bar oil= melted plastics. POS saw not worth the plastic it was molded in.


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## jughead500 (Jan 25, 2015)

Ooooooo the New Stihl's. Don't ask me about the low hour 311 i bout a while back with non existant Main Bearing cages and 4 BB's bouncing around between the bottom and top end.


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## SteveSS (Jan 25, 2015)

juttree said:


> Dull chain+sap+no bar oil= melted plastics. POS saw not worth the plastic it was molded in.


Where does bar oil come into play in this scenario? Pretty sure that the sprocket drum isn't lubricated with bar oil and neither is the brake band.....especially at the point where the two meet. Usually breaking surfaces forgo lubrication......it diminishes the actual braking function.


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## ckelp (Jan 25, 2015)

i'm not going to be like the others, busting your nuts over buying something less then a pro saw.
if you don't mind the look of toasted plastic replace as needed parts like the worm gear for the oil pump. you should have it back together for less then $100 (all oem).
i know it sucks. cut your losses and move on. to make you feel better about getting denied for warranty, the husky dealer by me won't even put it in for review and say they denied it


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 25, 2015)

Sorry but this one is obviously the OP fault 100%. Look at the color of the clutch!! Operator error and abuse. I'd think the crank seals got pretty hot too.


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## juttree (Jan 25, 2015)

SteveSS said:


> Where does bar oil come into play in this scenario? Pretty sure that the sprocket drum isn't lubricated with bar oil and neither is the brake band.....especially at the point where the two meet. Usually breaking surfaces forgo lubrication......it diminishes the actual braking function.


Try running your saw without bar oil, there's gonna be lots of heat.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 25, 2015)

juttree said:


> Try running your saw without bar oil, there's gonna be lots of heat.



I find the chain locks up and starts to sound dry long before you'd get that much heat. Sorry the OP simply doesn't have a clue. If the break wasn't on with the saw on high idle, he was cutting with the chain on backwards, while leaning on the saw with all his weight. I've heard these stories in person, if even half of the story is true I'd be surprised.


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## Rockjock (Jan 25, 2015)

Has the OP verified that it is melted plastic?


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## RandyMac (Jan 25, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> I find the chain locks up and starts to sound dry long before you'd get that much heat. Sorry the OP simply doesn't have a clue. If the break wasn't on with the saw on high idle, he was cutting with the chain on backwards, while leaning on the saw with all his weight. I've heard these stories in person, if even half of the story is true I'd be surprised.



wow Mr wizard, gosh thanks for sharing


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## pro94lt (Jan 25, 2015)

If you run a saw with the brake on just hang it up. Hire out whatever you need cut...


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## HuskStihl (Jan 25, 2015)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you bragging that you got a whole hour out of an MS 291, or upset that you only got an hour out of an MS 291?


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 25, 2015)

RandyMac said:


> wow Mr wizard, gosh thanks for sharing



???


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## Brettl (Jan 25, 2015)

Wow, no love for the op. Hang in there op, there's some good people on this site, and some are just dicks. A real **** can tell you exactly what happened and declare you a liar just by your thread over 1 thread. Amazing, ain't it?


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## AKDoug (Jan 25, 2015)

Tre


SteveSS said:


> Hard to tell from the pics if it's accumulated tree sap that boiled and burned, or if it's blistered plastic from running with the brake on. If I were a claims adjuster at Stihl Corporate, I'd need more definitive proof. Like, toss it in an ultrasonic cleaner and show me before and after pics to prove the tree sap theory. Without real proof like that, I'd be in the "ran it with brake on"camp. Not saying that the OP is a doofus though, because like someone else said......winter time, gloves, loss of sense of feel, etc. It happens. I'd be more inclined to fix it myself than pay labor fees though.


Once again, tree sap or brake on, neither are Stihl's fault. They won't honor the warranty because there is nothing to warranty.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 25, 2015)

Brettl said:


> Wow, no love for the op. Hang in there op, there's some good people on this site, and some are just dicks. A real **** can tell you exactly what happened and declare you a liar just by your thread over 1 thread. Amazing, ain't it?



Not so. Look at the clutch, that doesn't just spontaneously happen, the plastic doesn't melt under normal operating temperatures. To get the results we see in the OP pics, takes stupidity, or at least severe neglect. No dealer or manufacture will cover that type of damage. I'm calling it as I see it, you don't have to agree, that's fine with me.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Not so. Look at the clutch, that doesn't just spontaneously happen, the plastic doesn't melt under normal operating temperatures. To get the results we see in the OP pics, takes stupidity, or at least severe neglect. No dealer or manufacture will cover that type of damage. I'm calling it as I see it, you don't have to agree, that's fine with me.



Thanks, you've already stated your opinion, so why don't you move along now? You, and several others on here, are contributing absolutely nothing to the thread. 

I've already established that the chain was moving and the brake was off when the overheat happened. I know they bump on easily; this is not what happened. 

And for all those addressing the cleanliness of the sprocket area - are you kidding me? What do you see in the picture besides a tiny amount of sawdust and a bunch of melted plastic? There isn't anything in there. It's not my fault the plastic POS melted. The chain was moving, the brake was off, and I wasn't overrevving. End of story as far as I'm concerned. 

I was there, you all weren't.


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## west041 (Jan 25, 2015)

I've been on several other forums and this one is the crappiest by far. This is literally my first topic on here. How is this fun at all for anyone?


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 25, 2015)

Where did the heat come from that melted the plastic?


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## AKDoug (Jan 25, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure appears the brake band is broken at the 4:00 position. If that is the case, it only happens one way.


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## AKDoug (Jan 25, 2015)

Never mind, it that brake band might be behind the "keeper" plastic at that position. Need a better pic.


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## Brettl (Jan 26, 2015)

If warranty fails, I hope you can fix it yourself without putting to much into it. With costs of new saws and warranty issues being what they are, I prefer to buy used. Ive found a lot of older Stihls of good design for $20 or $30 that don't need much work, several 025/250s and 026s for example. Depends on the area but in Kansas I can find good 029 Supers and 039s between $200 and $250. Oklahoma is even cheaper usually. Just something to think about. Good luck.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 26, 2015)

Never ask a question unless you're prepared to hear the answer, as you may not get the answer you wanted.

If I were the OP, I'd take this as a expensive learning experience. Move on to fixing or replacing my saw, and learning how to prevent this from happening again.


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## treesmith (Jan 26, 2015)

I've had saws with a dirty brake band where the brake is ineffective at full throttle, the dirt on the band rubs against dirt on the sprocket and just slips as opposed to metal on metal and stopping. I could easily understand how a dirty brake band accidently tripped would still run and cut, it would get hot as hell too
Pine sap could do this easily


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry but this one is obviously the OP fault 100%. Look at the color of the clutch!! Operator error and abuse. I'd think the crank seals got pretty hot too.





Andyshine77 said:


> I find the chain locks up and starts to sound dry long before you'd get that much heat. Sorry the OP simply doesn't have a clue. If the break wasn't on with the saw on high idle, he was cutting with the chain on backwards, while leaning on the saw with all his weight. I've heard these stories in person, if even half of the story is true I'd be surprised.





Andyshine77 said:


> Not so. Look at the clutch, that doesn't just spontaneously happen, the plastic doesn't melt under normal operating temperatures. To get the results we see in the OP pics, takes stupidity, or at least severe neglect. No dealer or manufacture will cover that type of damage. I'm calling it as I see it, you don't have to agree, that's fine with me.





Andyshine77 said:


> Never ask a question unless you're prepared to hear the answer, as you may not get the answer you wanted.
> 
> If I were the OP, I'd take this as a expensive learning experience. Move on to fixing or replacing my saw, and learning how to prevent this from happening again.





treesmith said:


> I've had saws with a dirty brake band where the brake is ineffective at full throttle, the dirt on the band rubs against dirt on the sprocket and just slips as opposed to metal on metal and stopping. I could easily understand how a dirty brake band accidently tripped would still run and cut, it would get hot as hell too
> Pine sap could do this easily



I agree with all of these posts

doging the saw in with a dull chain, bogging it down, slipping the clutch, causes a lot of heat.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> It's not my fault the plastic POS melted.
> 
> I was there, you all weren't.



I have a MS291 that needs a new piston and cylinder...I'll give you $50 for you "plastic POS"...


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 26, 2015)

I have no dog in this fight, just sharing my experiences.
Another fun chain brake story. Local Sunbelt rental has 290s, 291s and 390s. I was returning a mini excavator and another contractor brought back a 390 he had just picked up and told the counter guy it wouldn't run right.
One of the mechanics grabs it and takes it in the shop, I followed him out with my safety glasses after settling up. He has it on the bench with a screwdriver in the carb raising the idle and trying to blip the saw and it just grunts with no chain movement so he turns a little more. I wave my hands at him but I am not heading into the work area and he doesn't see me. After he has the saw screaming and smoking he shuts it off. He looked over at me, they all know I am a saw nerd, he said what's wrong with it? I just said chain brake and he flipped me off and got back to retuning the saw  A guy can rebuild track hoes for a living and still forget simple stuff.
Stihl rep showed us an inertia brake in action at the service day last week, he took a new 291, clicked the brake off and dropped the tip on the ground, the slight impact made it trip, as it is supposed to. A chain brake can stop a chain in a tenth of a second at full throttle but at low throttle there maybe more torque? I just know you can rev up a saw and smoke the brake band from idle on many saws.
Dave


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2015)

There is only one place that slippage can occur between the engine and the chain - at the clutch. So if the engine is running but the chain is not turning at engine speed than the clutch must be slipping. Since that is a friction device then some or all of the engine's output mechanical energy is being turned into heat in the clutch. 

If the throttle is not at idle, the brake is on (or anything else that slows the chain) and the engine has not stalled then there is one heck of a lot of power going into that clutch. If you load the engine down enough the rpm will drop until the clutch begins to disengage, and then it will begin to heat fast. Even 1hp is 746W, which is a lot of power being dumped into that assembly, which has very little surface area or airflow over it.


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## Rockjock (Jan 26, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> There is only one place that slippage can occur between the engine and the chain - at the clutch. So if the engine is running but the chain is not turning at engine speed than the clutch must be slipping. Since that is a friction device then some or all of the engine's output mechanical energy is being turned into heat in the clutch.
> 
> If the throttle is not at idle, the brake is on (or anything else that slows the chain) and the engine has not stalled then there is one heck of a lot of power going into that clutch. If you load the engine down enough the rpm will drop until the clutch begins to disengage, and then it will begin to heat fast. Even 1hp is 746W, which is a lot of power being dumped into that assembly, which has very little surface area or airflow over it.



I agree with you if this was a old saw, not maintained well at all but this is a new saw, clutch and brake band in good nick. So where does slippage come into this?. If the op was to take his saw engage the chain brake from idle and depress the trigger WOT what will happen? Sound of engine bogging and chain not moving. Now OP takes the saw depresses the trigger WOT then engages the chain brake what happens? bog sound followed by chain stopping. How can the saw be run with the brake band activated?


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

I sold a 271 that came back looking like that after one day. The owner tripped the brake in a big log and though the saw was just stuck and kept horsing on it. Only about 45 seconds of that kind of abuse will result in a saw that looks just like that. It usually happens to customers that went from a POS dull saw and bought a new one, not realizing what a good saw is supposed to sound like. I wish I had a beater saw around to video and demonstrate how short of a time it takes to do this.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> I agree with you if this was a old saw, not maintained well at all but this is a new saw, clutch and brake band in good nick. So where does slippage come into this?. If the op was to take his saw engage the chain brake from idle and depress the trigger WOT what will happen? Sound of engine bogging and chain not moving. Now OP takes the saw depresses the trigger WOT then engages the chain brake what happens? bog sound followed by chain stopping. How can the saw be run with the brake band activated?


That the clutch got hot is proof that it was slipping. If the clutch was out of spec (weak spring, etc.) it could still get quite hot - but the chain would still be slipping.

There is no way for a chain to slow down other than clutch slip, which means heat, which should mean "stop now".


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

I have also seen guys that have taken a hot bar and set it down in the snow. Come back two hours later and it's frozen solid. They fire up the saw and horse on it trying to get the chain to move....beating the bar on a log trying to get it to move, etc. After a minute of this they can't understand why the housing around the clutch is starting to burn the paint or melt plastic. I imagine the same thing could happen with excessive amounts of pitch left in a bar overnight to dry.


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## Rockjock (Jan 26, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> I sold a 271 that came back looking like that after one day. The owner tripped the brake in a big log and though the saw was just stuck and kept horsing on it. Only about 45 seconds of that kind of abuse will result in a saw that looks just like that. It usually happens to customers that went from a POS dull saw and bought a new one, not realizing what a good saw is supposed to sound like. I wish I had a beater saw around to video and demonstrate how short of a time it takes to do this.




I get your point but I just can not see it. Please point out the flaw in my thinking here. I have a New saw that at WOT will stop a chain dead if the chain brake is engaged. Then I take the same saw from idle and engage the chain brake and give it the berries and the chain does not move. all this and and a person that has operated saws for a very long time lead me to believe it may be something else. I agree someone who does not know what they are doing might be able to do it. But I still do not see it.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> That the clutch got hot is proof that it was slipping. If the clutch was out of spec (weak spring, etc.) it could still get quite hot - but the chain would still be slipping.
> 
> There is no way for a chain to slow down other than clutch slip, which means heat, which should mean "stop now".


Remember that on a chainsaw clutch, weak springs don't effect it's grip. The springs are to keep it closed until the right amount of RPM is reached.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> I get your point but I just can not see it. Please point out the flaw in my thinking here. I have a New saw that at WOT will stop a chain dead if the chain brake is engaged. Then I take the same saw from idle and engage the chain brake and give it the berries and the chain does not move. all this and and a person that has operated saws for a very long time lead me to believe it may be something else. I agree someone who does not know what they are doing might be able to do it. But I still do not see it.


The chain doesn't move. The clutch, inside the clutch drum, is slipping and creating massive amounts of heat. The drum drives the chain, but it's not moving.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

There's a lot of theories getting thrown out about dull chains, chains on backwards and idiot operators. I'm not joking when I say that the saw had literally, literally, 1 running hour. If that. And it was light usage. So think of this saw as being immaculate, because it was. 

And as for Andyshine77, seriously man, you have stated your opinion. I don't mind asking a question and not liking the answer. What does piss me off is people who keep on beating a dead horse when they really have no idea what they are talking about. You weren't there, and you are basing your opinion on three pictures. That's fine. That is what you think. I obviously disagree. There is nothing left for you to contribute to this thread other than further inflammatory trolling. So stop trolling my thread.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

It's a centrifugal clutch. There is always an RPM that the clutch shoes will engage with the inside of the clutch drum and spin inside of it. Each time you throttle up with a stuck drum (chainbrake on, chains stuck in tree, chain stuck in bar, etc...) you will spin the clutch inside the drum and heat it. Like Chris says, it's a small piece of metal that has no airflow over it if the chain isn't moving. Those few seconds of clutch rubbing against the inside of the clutch drum are enough to heat it. Blip the throttle enough times and it super heats in short order.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> There's a lot of theories getting thrown out about dull chains, chains on backwards and idiot operators. I'm not joking when I say that the saw had literally, literally, 1 running hour. If that. And it was light usage. So think of this saw as being immaculate, because it was.
> 
> And as for Andyshine77, seriously man, you have stated your opinion. I don't mind asking a question and not liking the answer. What does piss me off is people who keep on beating a dead horse when they really have no idea what they are talking about. You weren't there, and you are basing your opinion on three pictures. That's fine. That is what you think. I obviously disagree. There is nothing left for you to contribute to this thread other than further inflammatory trolling. So stop trolling my thread.


Seriously dude, there is NOTHING to warranty on this saw. The results of the damage speak for themselves. Something in the operators' control caused this. Whether it was pitch buildup, dull chain, brake application, etc... There was not a manufacturing defect. Even if that clutch bearing had exploded before the rest of the mess, it has no function once the RPM's are up enough to engage the clutch.


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## Rockjock (Jan 26, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> The chain doesn't move. The clutch, inside the clutch drum, is slipping and creating massive amounts of heat. The drum drives the chain, but it's not moving.


I am aware of this but my point is chain not spinning I stop what I am doing and think why is it not spinning? . The OP is not a novice. So if this was to have happened to you, a seasoned operator what would be the other cause of this failure? I agree that someone who has not run a saw could do this. But someone with some knowledge I do not see it.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks Brettl for the advice. I do own three used saws, two 031AVs and an 041 farm boss. They have always treated me well, but I'd rather remedy the problem with the 291 for my dad's sake then get him a used saw or give him one of mine. None of mine have chain brakes either so I don't feel comfortable giving them to someone else even though my father is more experienced than I am. 

I'm not as familiar with the newer Stihl saws but I will attempt a fix if I cannot get help from Stihl.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Seriously dude, there is NOTHING to warranty on this saw. The results of the damage speak for themselves. Something in the operators' control caused this. Whether it was pitch buildup, dull chain, brake application, etc... There was not a manufacturing defect. Even if that clutch bearing had exploded before the rest of the mess, it has no function once the RPM's are up enough to engage the clutch.



Seriously Doug, this opinion has also been stated. If you are in the "operator error" camp then that's fine. You might as well move along and have a party with Andyshine. It's nothing personal, we just disagree. It's not going to stop me from trying my luck with Stihl.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you Rockjock. The one voice of reason in this idiotic thread.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Those few seconds of clutch rubbing against the inside of the clutch drum are enough to heat it. Blip the throttle enough times and it super heats in short order.



I'm not disagreeing with your logic here. I'm just saying that this is not what happened. Did I mention the chain was moving?


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Somebody asked if it was melted plastic or sap. It is melted plastic. There is no sap to speak of.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> There was not a manufacturing defect.


I agree, but I still consider it a poor design choice. Compare to a PP5020, which has a plastic chassis but an outboard clutch and a metal cover - you will have considerably more time before case damage results. Even an outboard clutch and plastic cover will result mostly in clutch cover damage, and the outboard clutch probably can dissipate heat a bit better. 

I know people like the inboard clutch feature, but I think that is a practical limitation of the material.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> I'm just saying that this is not what happened. Did I mention the chain was moving?


Even if the chain was still moving, what do you suppose caused the heating? There are two choices:

1. Clutch shoes dragging
2. Brake band dragging on the clutch


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Even if the chain was still moving, what do you suppose caused the heating? There are two choices:
> 
> 1. Clutch shoes dragging
> 2. Brake band dragging on the clutch



Neither of these things should happen with a brand new saw under proper operation. The saw was buried in a spruce, but it was a limbed up 14-16" trunk that was in a good spot. The saw started to smoke, at which point I shut it down. There was nothing in the chain movement to suggest slippage, brake engagement or any obstruction or clogging in the sprocket area. It wasn't like I had it pinched in the middle of a 30" weeping willow in August with a dull chain. I feel like that is what many think I was doing. 

Basically the people in the "operator error" camp are saying that either: 
A. I'm a liar
B. I'm incompetent


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## lone wolf (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> Neither of these things should happen with a brand new saw under proper operation. The saw was buried in a spruce, but it was a limbed up 14-16" trunk that was in a good spot. The saw started to smoke, at which point I shut it down. There was nothing in the chain movement to suggest slippage, brake engagement or any obstruction or clogging in the sprocket area. It wasn't like I had it pinched in the middle of a 30" weeping willow in August with a dull chain. I feel like that is what many think I was doing.
> 
> Basically the people in the "operator error" camp are saying that either:
> A. I'm a liar
> B. I'm incompetent


C. It was weak to begin with and you did not notice it was on until there was smoke?


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> C. It was weak to begin with and you did not notice it was on until there was smoke?



Again, why should any aspect of the saw's operation be "weak" after <1 hr run time?


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## lone wolf (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> Again, why should any aspect of the saw's operation be "weak" after <1 hr run time?


I see what you are saying. Who knows if they were not there. But I got to tell you it would appear the brake was left on. What would you say if for instance you loaned out a saw and it came back like that?


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## watsonr (Jan 26, 2015)

A brand new saw, it should run perfect, wouldn't suspect anything else except a malfunction... something to consider. Just dogging the saw in can cause the clutch to slip and over a minute or two cause smoke to appear. A small amount of smoke wouldn't bother me, its exhaust, then holy hell, saws on fire..... I've cut a lot of wood and smoked a lot of clutches. Metal saws don't melt, but I've seen the old man light a smoke from a hot clutch and any old school logger will tell you... always carry a spare clutch with you. 14-16" wood doesn't seem like much, but dogging in can cause clutch slippage on just about any smaller saw. With the tollerance 's of today's saws and plastic parts/pieces, that heat is transferred to the plastic pretty fast. A slipping clutch builds a lot of heat, closed off by plastic... you get a heck of a mess fast. Chain moves easily after it was shut down, no brake left on... 

Just thinking.


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## lone wolf (Jan 26, 2015)

watsonr said:


> A brand new saw, it should run perfect, wouldn't suspect anything else except a malfunction... something to consider. Just dogging the saw in can cause the clutch to slip and over a minute or two cause smoke to appear. A small amount of smoke wouldn't bother me, its exhaust, then holy hell, saws on fire..... I've cut a lot of wood and smoked a lot of clutches. Metal saws don't melt, but I've seen the old man light a smoke from a hot clutch and any old school logger will tell you... always carry a spare clutch with you. 14-16" wood doesn't seem like much, but dogging in can cause clutch slippage on just about any smaller saw. With the tollerance 's of today's saws and plastic parts/pieces, that heat is transferred to the plastic pretty fast. A slipping clutch builds a lot of heat, closed off by plastic... you get a heck of a mess fast. Chain moves easily after it was shut down, no brake left on...
> 
> Just thinking.


Could be huh.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 26, 2015)

This is just a thought. Is it possible that the crank bearing on the clutch side could have been defective? I've installed cheap bearings on equipment that get hot and burn up quick. Learned my lesson with cheap bearings.


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## watsonr (Jan 26, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> Could be huh.


 yep... we all know a small saw needs a little lift on bigger wood.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> This is just a thought. Is it possible that the crank bearing on the clutch side could have been defective? I've installed cheap bearings on equipment that get hot and burn up quick. Learned my lesson with cheap bearings.


Without the saw in hand, that is impossible to surmise. However, a bad crank bearing will not heat up a clutch or drum like this one was. Not that I've seen anyway. I think watsonr is on to something on this. I'm working on a video right now to show how short of time it takes to overheat a clutch on one of my rental 271's. Remember ANY time the saw is bogging and not cutting the clutch is going to get hot. This includes gunk buildup, wood beyond the capability of the saw, lack of bar lubrication, dull chains, and the clutch brake being engaged. 

I also will say that this saw can still be fixed for less than $100 as long as the PTO side crank bearing and seal are in good condition. They probably are since there is still a lot of insulation provided by that oil pump and worm.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 26, 2015)

watsonr said:


> yep... we all know a small saw needs a little lift on bigger wood.


I expect my small plastic homeowner saws to run a buried bar in hardwood without a lift, other than repositioning between cuts. And they do, without issue or overheating parts. Then again I let the chain determine the cutting speed, I have dogs on very few of them and my chains are sharp. There are a lot of misconceptions about how fragile a homeowner saw is.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 26, 2015)

Doug, I remember you saying in a earlier post that he was looking at 100 in parts and like 15 minutes of shop time. Let's say they whack him for a hour labor, it should only be 175 dollar repair not the 541 dollars he was quoted. Something doesn't add up.


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## lone wolf (Jan 26, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> Doug, I remember you saying in a earlier post that he was looking at 100 in parts and like 15 minutes of shop time. Let's say they whack him for a hour labor, it should only be 175 dollar repair not the 541 dollars he was quoted. Something doesn't add up.


They wanted to sell him engine cases.


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## watsonr (Jan 26, 2015)

A sharp chain with lowered rakers will slip the clutch a little. A duller chain and a little lift on the handle, a little more. Just about every video on you tube of someone cutting wood shows they lift the handle... just watch a few. We lift the handle subconsciously and heat the clutch. Next time someone runs a saw, touch the clutch and see if you get your finger prints back... I'd bet not.

Was the chain sharpened at any time? Do you remember it cutting a little slower before failure? The shop saw that the clutch was overheated, assumed it was your fault based on what they have seen in the past... 

These non-pro saws are pretty tough, the ms 250 happens to be one of my favorites for smaller jobs, not trying to take anything away from a homeowner saw.


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## AKDoug (Jan 26, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> Doug, I remember you saying in a earlier post that he was looking at 100 in parts and like 15 minutes of shop time. Let's say they whack him for a hour labor, it should only be 175 dollar repair not the 541 dollars he was quoted. Something doesn't add up.


Yep, they want to replace the engine case. I have sent ones out worse than those pictures show as long as the chain brake functions properly.

It is not my place to question what one dealer wants to do. It's their choice. It's also the choice of the consumer to check out another shop. I'm just saying what I have done in the past.


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## Stihl99 (Jan 26, 2015)

pantelis said:


> Burning saw from an unkown reason, the heavyweight 90% fall to the customer . now you see diagnostic report


Take your saw to another dealer and get a second opinion, if they both are the same then if I was you I would do one of two things.
1. order the parts and get it up and running. 
2. part this one out and get a MS391 or MS362

Oh how did you call with Stihl go today?


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## jughead500 (Jan 26, 2015)

If it were me i'd bypass the dealer and get a second opinion at another.ifthat don't work contact stihl directly.do a review on the website and see if you can attach pictures.that should get a ball rolling.


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## jughead500 (Jan 26, 2015)

I would check the crank bearings too.


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## pantelis (Jan 26, 2015)

Stihl99 said:


> Take your saw to another dealer and get a second opinion, if they both are the same then if I was you I would do one of two things.
> 1. order the parts and get it up and running.
> 2. part this one out and get a MS391 or MS362
> 
> Oh how did you call with Stihl go today?


i agree for a 362


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

watsonr said:


> A brand new saw, it should run perfect, wouldn't suspect anything else except a malfunction... something to consider. Just dogging the saw in can cause the clutch to slip and over a minute or two cause smoke to appear. A small amount of smoke wouldn't bother me, its exhaust, then holy hell, saws on fire..... I've cut a lot of wood and smoked a lot of clutches. Metal saws don't melt, but I've seen the old man light a smoke from a hot clutch and any old school logger will tell you... always carry a spare clutch with you. 14-16" wood doesn't seem like much, but dogging in can cause clutch slippage on just about any smaller saw. With the tollerance 's of today's saws and plastic parts/pieces, that heat is transferred to the plastic pretty fast. A slipping clutch builds a lot of heat, closed off by plastic... you get a heck of a mess fast. Chain moves easily after it was shut down, no brake left on...
> 
> Just thinking.



I think this may a more likely scenario. No chain brake involvement, just hard work on the saw/clutch assembly that created a lot of quick heat and smoked it. Now was this normal usage that would qualify under the warranty? I felt that I was using the saw within its capabilities and the chain was quite sharp. The chain was brand new and had not been sharpened after the first hour of use because I felt it did not need it. 

Everyone else - all this is good info. Thanks for not making assumptions, that's all I ask.

As for my situation with Stihl, they have not yet returned my email. I am not initiating anything until I can get a person on a phone.


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## pantelis (Jan 26, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> If it were me i'd bypass the dealer and get a second opinion at another.ifthat don't work contact stihl directly.do a review on the website and see if you can attach pictures.that should get a ball rolling.


Correct. after all theese the stihl will recoment you to solve the problem with your local dealer or with anyone dealer ( authorized stihl service ) that you prefer.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> I think this may a more likely scenario. No chain brake involvement, just hard work on the saw/clutch assembly that created a lot of quick heat and smoked it. Now was this normal usage that would qualify under the warranty?



It's considered operator error. I know you don't want to hear that, but that's the way it is. A friendly dealer should help you out with parts and advice, some dealers are more than happy to profit off others mistakes.

Again take this as a learning experience.


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## SEAM (Jan 26, 2015)

I've seen a few of these. I always ask the owner to do a couple of cuts with one of my saws: They were almost all the hesitant, careful type, cutting at half throttle (just getting the chain moving) and not at WOT. That will smoke any clutch and the plastic parts around it...


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## Weesa20 (Jan 26, 2015)

West041- if none the operator centered scenarios explain it, what part are you saying malfunctioned allowing the repair under warranty?


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## lly_duramax (Jan 26, 2015)

No one will ever know exactly what happened.... With that being said what I find sickening is the $541 quote to fix the saw. That is more than a brand new 261 that will cut circles around the 291 and is more durable. Dude you need to find a different dealer!


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

I have seen first hand a friend took his new 291 on high idle , chain brake on and set it down to warm up . It ran for about 30 seconds that way . He decided he wanted to swap chains and shut it down . When he pulled the cover the plastic around the clutch was melted a bit and the needle bearing had lots of play . He decided to run it like that and it was all good for about 10 minutes . Now his saw looks just like the OP's saw . Once the needle bearing is melted the clutch will rub the brake band and make lots of heat . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Weesa20 (Jan 26, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> I have seen first hand a friend took his new 291 on high idle , chain brake on and set it down to warm up . It ran for about 30 seconds that way . He decided he wanted to swap chains and shut it down . When he pulled the cover the plastic around the clutch was melted a bit and the needle bearing had lots of play . He decided to run it like that and it was all good for about 10 minutes . Now his saw looks just like the OP's saw . Once the needle bearing is melted the clutch will rub the brake band and make lots of heat .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Seems very reasonable but not possible in this case because there is no way possible that it was even slightly caused by operator error. Only a scenario that results in warranty coverage will be considered by the OP.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Seems very reasonable but not possible in this case because there is no way possible that it was even slightly caused by operator error. Only a scenario that results in warranty coverage will be considered by the OP.


 I used to help in a dealer and I may be wrong but I haven't seen something like that that wasn't operator error . But we won't know . You can analyze 1000 things looking at a saw in 2 mins. A few photos is about worthless in this case . I would want to see good photos of everything including the bar and chain . It's all speculation but I just can't see trashing a saw like that and not knowing something was wrong well before it got to that kind of damage 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## super3 (Jan 26, 2015)

The color of the clutch speaks for itself.


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## SEAM (Jan 26, 2015)

Some pics of the inside and outside of the drum would help.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> It's considered operator error. I know you don't want to hear that, but that's the way it is. A friendly dealer should help you out with parts and advice, some dealers are more than happy to profit off others mistakes.
> 
> Again take this as a learning experience.



What is wrong with you? Stop repeating yourself. You have stated your opinion for the 5th time in this thread, and I respectfully disagree. There is nothing more to gain here other than starting a flame off. This is blatant trolling and I have repeatedly asked you to stop.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 26, 2015)

If you're doing some serious saw work you need to buy a metal cased saw which is made for more continuous usage. I don't use a chainsaw that long at a time and a plastic saw is great for what little I do..I've seen a lot of damage like that on Stihl plastic saws, on Husqvarna saws the damage is around the muffler most often. It's not always operator error either, those clutches and mufflers get plenty hot enough to melt plastic if you use them long enough. I also had a Husqvarna saw that the brake band would contact the clutch even when the brake was disengaged.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> West041- if none the operator centered scenarios explain it, what part are you saying malfunctioned allowing the repair under warranty?



I really am not sure. I thought it could be the bearing or a defective clutch but I really don't know. 



Weesa20 said:


> Seems very reasonable but not possible in this case because there is no way possible that it was even slightly caused by operator error. Only a scenario that results in warranty coverage will be considered by the OP.



Look, if I call Stihl and the techs there say that there is no way that this could have happened and I have been operating chain saws incorrectly for 20 years then I won't have any choice then to accept it, right? That's my problem. 

I started this thread looking for a few alternative theories as to how this could have happened. I've taken a lot of crap on here and people are basically calling me either a liar in regards to my account of the incident or incompetent for allowing this to happen to a brand new saw. 

I totally get that a lot of people on here think that there is no other alternative other than operator error here. That is fine, and we will disagree. But I will kindly ask all the smart asses and people making sarcastic cracks to move along to a different thread. If you have nothing useful to contribute other than hate and flaming then I would ask you to please go elsewhere and also, seriously take a good look in the mirror at what kind of person you are.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> What is wrong with you? Stop repeating yourself. You have stated your opinion for the 5th time in this thread, and I respectfully disagree. There is nothing more to gain here other than starting a flame off. This is blatant trolling and I have repeatedly asked you to stop.


 If your looking for knowledgable people to disregard the obvious and say this wasn't operator error it's probably not going to happen . It seems to me you looking for something that's just not there to take back to your dealer . Post some better photos and maybe there may be. But from what little we see so far , this isn't a defect valid of warranty claim 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

SEAM said:


> I've seen a few of these. I always ask the owner to do a couple of cuts with one of my saws: They were almost all the hesitant, careful type, cutting at half throttle (just getting the chain moving) and not at WOT. That will smoke any clutch and the plastic parts around it...



This would be helpful, except that is not how I operate saws.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> That's fine. Is it too much for me to ask for people to not be arrogant pricks?


 No not at all , you can ask ,but we are a pretty snarky bunch and you need to bring your big boy pants to the table . But I will say if you ask an opinion and get several of the same responses it won't serve you well to just say no you are all wrong . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SteveSS (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> Where the hell are the mods on this forum anyway? Doesn't anyone put a stop to the blatant trolling going on? Does anyone welcome new members around here? I promise you this will be my last thread the way things are going. The folks over at "Chainsaw collectors .se" are a lot nicer. I've been on a few other forums like hearth .com and mytractorforum and always had a good experience. I see many of the sarcastic and smart ass posters here are veterans of the forum. Good for you guys! What a great example you all set!


If you're already a member of and are happy with other forums, why are you asking your questions here with this group of roughnecks, clowns, and hooligans? To spare your feelings, maybe you should post the same question at one of your other sites. There's really not a lot of "touchy, feely", here.......you really have to have some pretty thick skin.

Your problem is super important to you, I get that. You feel slighted by your dealer and the Stihl rep., I get that too. But seriously, it ain't the end of the world. Lighten up, Cuz. It'll be ok. Fix your saw and keep on keepin' on, or buy another. Just please......stop crying about the responses that you asked for people to give you. Good day, sir.

p.s.
Welcome to A.S.


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## pro94lt (Jan 26, 2015)

And after all these posts no face palm???


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Haha, you guys are so cool! What a fun club!


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm not "complaining" about the responses. I was trying to contain my mind blowing from trying to listen to people ask me if I had a sharp chain or put the chain on backwards or overrevved while the chain brake was engaged. Maybe you'll know how it feels if you ask a question somewhere and have people question whether you have the most basic common sense principles.

I established at the beginning that I have more than enough cutting experience to know what I'm doing.


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

Hahaha tree monkey that was classic! Keep 'em coming! Why don't you put your name and address up at the end of your posts and I'll tell you in person?


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

I find this flowchart applies to most everything [emoji15]






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## west041 (Jan 26, 2015)

That's pretty good, thanks for the laugh.

Tree monkey you still have some work to do. Who did you vote for?


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> Hahaha tree monkey that was classic! Keep 'em coming! Why don't you put your name and address up at the end of your posts and I'll tell you in person?


 Ohh snap !!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tree monkey (Jan 26, 2015)

west041 said:


> Hahaha tree monkey that was classic! Keep 'em coming! Why don't you put your name and address up at the end of your posts and I'll tell you in person?



my name and address is not hard to find on this site. let me know if your unable to find it. I would be happy to assist you if need be


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## Knobby57 (Jan 26, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> my name and address is not hard to find on this site. let me know if your unable to find it. I would be happy to assist you if need be


 You will probably receive literature on how to sign up for overpriced healthcare that supplements coverage for those lazy people that don't work, Or the ones that smoked crack for 10 years and live in the ER...... But hey !! If you like your doctor you can keep him.... It's just not covered 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

tree monkey said:


> my name and address is not hard to find on this site. let me know if your unable to find it. I would be happy to assist you if need be


 
I didn't find it. Please post it so I can come to your house.


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## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

I see your from maine


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## RedFir Down (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> I didn't find it. Please post it so I can come to your house.


Sounds like that would work out well... treemonkey can sell you a new stihl.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 27, 2015)

Be honest Scott, you're really west041, and you're just playing with us, and yourself.

Wait, that didn't cum out right.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Andyshines back! Missed ya!


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Andyshines back! Missed ya!


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## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

<<<<<hint











<<<<<<<<<<<<<


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

You all seem like Obama lovers to me.


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## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

so you still don't know where I live?


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 27, 2015)

When i read this thread title i thought it was gonna be stihl MS 291 burnt out after H1 R and it was a typo..and turn into an oil thread..looks like you boys have it covered.


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## SEAM (Jan 27, 2015)

No one is blatantly trolling you... everyone states their own opinion on the possible cause for this mishap.
The culprit is HEAT, and that heat must have developed somewhere.
You used the chainsaw only 1 hour you say, and we assume it was in operable condition from the operator's viewpoint (chain oil delivery OK, chain sharp, chain brake not engaged).
This leaves only friction of some sort around the clutch assembly where the damage occurred. Looking at the pic it seems that most of the heat was emitted from the clutch shoe circumference as there are burn marks on the inside of the drum circle. If the brake band had been rubbing against the drum there would be burn marks mostly on the outside of the drum circumference. Thus, it can be assumed that the heat developed inside the drum. If the heat had developed from around the crank shaft the worm gear would have melted.

For me it looks like the clutch had been slipping for a while - it does not take long for metal to glow red from friction... Heat dissipation from an inboard clutch is very ineffective, so it may have been just a few seconds that did the damage.
I can think of only 3 possible causes:
1: Chain brake was engaged by accident in the cut and the operator tried to get the chain going thinking it was caught in the log
2: Saw was not operated at WOT when cutting thicker logs
3: The chain was jammed/not sliding smoothly in the bar causing the clutch to slip

I can't think of any other possible cause... maybe someone else can.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks SEAM, I think #2 or #3 seems most likely. Good to get back on topic. 

I think SEAM covered the most likely scenarios. Some of you were helpful and I thank you. To the rest of you, bye. If anyone desires to hear how things turn out with Stihl you can post here. I won't be checking in as much now, this has been a pretty negative experience. Happy cutting everyone.


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## cuttinties (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Oh ,yes I should bring my "big boy" pants. Listen, just because I ask people to be nice doesn't mean I don't have a set of balls. It doesn't take a tough guy to sit behind a computer and act like a know it all douche. It actually takes a cowardly piece of **** to say that type of stuff.
> 
> The only people I said were wrong were the ones who said that I was running with the brake on, or had a dull chain, or didn't have the saw clean enough, or some other kindergarten error. I'm fully willing to admit that maybe I worked the saw too hard in a wet piece of spruce. But the brake wasn't on, the chain was moving, and everything else was in tip top shape.



You're a pretty abrasive little fella aren't you? There's an old saying : it's better to be thought stupid and remain silent, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Sometimes folks get a little miffed. Don't type faster than you can think. After all its just a chainsaw forum full of hobbyists,professionals and information.


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## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

does this mean he's not coming to visit?


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 27, 2015)

I wonder if he's gonna join?


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 27, 2015)

Could it be possible that the op simply neglected to grease the bar tip, thus seizing the tip, giving a chain brake on symptom, then putting the brake on when it was actually off, thus causing this irresponsible damage?


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## tree monkey (Jan 27, 2015)

bacon grease?


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## CR888 (Jan 27, 2015)

This thread is kinda silly as we only have limited info to form any conclusive diagnossis. My guess is this.......l have not run a 291 but stihls chainbrake system is very similar across their range from homeowner to pro. lf the chainbrake was fully engaged the chain would be stationary and not move like most saws. l believe the op had been preesing on the brake while cutting not completely engaging it to lock but enough to have the brakeband rubbing. Under this theory the op could buck up a tree believing he never had the brake on and even light pressure on the brake will cause heat really fast and considering the saw would be at full throttle this heat build up would do damage fast. Many think the brake is either on/off but if pressure is applied to it which can happen when stumping low to ground ect, it is like driving with your foot lightly on the brake. Based on my theory l would guess Stihl made the correct decision. Does the op wear big gloves or remember possibly touching the brake while using his new saw.


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 27, 2015)

a good pic or two of the inside and outside of the sprocket would change the consensus from 90% certainty to 99%
nobody wants to be wrong
everyone has an investment in being right
in the end it is a 291
DDave


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## Chris-PA (Jan 27, 2015)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I've seen a lot of damage like that on Stihl plastic saws, on Husqvarna saws the damage is around the muffler most often. It's not always operator error either, those clutches and mufflers get plenty hot enough to melt plastic if you use them long enough.


Case damage is not an issue unless the bolts come loose. The muffler outlet location is poorly designed on some saws with plastic top covers (including pro saws) which can result in melted covers.



SEAM said:


> If the brake band had been rubbing against the drum there would be burn marks mostly on the outside of the drum circumference.


Good point!



west041 said:


> The only people I said were wrong were the ones who said that I was running with the brake on, or had a dull chain, or didn't have the saw clean enough, or some other kindergarten error. I'm fully willing to admit that maybe I worked the saw too hard in a wet piece of spruce. But the brake wasn't on, the chain was moving, and everything else was in tip top shape.


You were presented with several analysis of where the heat energy could come from and what possible scenarios could cause that. You had no theory at all of your own, but "know" it could not be anything you did. Personally I think the design is dumb, but you still have to explain why the clutch was slipping that does not involve mis-operation or at least failing to notice the signs - and you have not done that.


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## big t double (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Thanks SEAM, I think #2 or #3 seems most likely. Good to get back on topic.
> 
> I think SEAM covered the most likely scenarios. Some of you were helpful and I thank you. To the rest of you, bye. If anyone desires to hear how things turn out with Stihl you can post here. I won't be checking in as much now, this has been a pretty negative experience. Happy cutting everyone.


im interested to hear how this works out, so im subbing with my .02....so if you agree with SEAM on those two scenarios then you would also agree that those are not warrantable issues? neither scenario would equal a defect in the manufacturing of the saw. the manufacturer can not warrant you operating a saw at half throttle causing damage and they can not warranty a chain jamming and causing it to over heat and cause damage. these are both operator issues. but good luck with your claim. I hope it works out for you...sometimes stihl will cover things on good faith just to keep a customer happy.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Where the hell are the mods on this forum anyway? Doesn't anyone put a stop to the blatant trolling going on? Does anyone welcome new members around here? I promise you this will be my last thread the way things are going. The folks over at "Chainsaw collectors .se" are a lot nicer. I've been on a few other forums like hearth .com and mytractorforum and always had a good experience. I see many of the sarcastic and smart ass posters here are veterans of the forum. Good for you guys! What a great example you all set!


Relax, No one is calling you names. You ask for opinions and you're getting them. some you don't like but that's the way it is. In a large forum like people are going to have a different viewpoint. The ones you don't like you have to acknowledge them and move on, Also welcome to the site even though you joined two years ago.


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## greendohn (Jan 27, 2015)

My pal had a 291 that cooked the plastic surrounding the drum,,IT WAS WARRANTED with a BRAND NEW SAW from the stealership in Greensburg, Indiana, as it should have been.
The OP has alluded to the fact he's been running saws for years without trashing 'em,,I can't see where he would suddenly develop a brain fart and not know how to run a saw..
I cut firewood with my pal for nearly every truckload he cut with the saw that failed, I even ran it occasionally with zero indications of any "running with brake on" or any other signs or symptoms the saw was not running well.
Perhaps there is a flaw in the design somewhere or perhaps some saws left the factory DOA,,I dunno. 
OP, I sure hope Stihl will stand behind the junk they sold you and resolve the shortcomings with whoever it is denying your warranty claim,,Peace.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Could it be possible that the op simply neglected to grease the bar tip, thus seizing the tip, giving a chain brake on symptom, then putting the brake on when it was actually off, thus causing this irresponsible damage?


How about pinched the bar and seized the tip? I never grease them you were joking right?


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 27, 2015)

Stihl tips don't need to be greased or even have a hole so that isn't the problem.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

KenJax Tree said:


> Stihl tips don't need to be greased or even have a hole so that isn't the problem.


A pinched tip sure could heat things up.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 27, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> A pinched tip sure could heat things up.


Yup that'll do it


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## Jed1124 (Jan 27, 2015)

I like to grease my tip from time to time.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

I had a friend (he was new to this forum) who pinched the bar in the cut and tried to power through and burned up the plastics on his MS291...had another friend (also new to this forum) who had years and years of experience cutting but not with modern saws with chainbrakes...I think they were 041 and 031 without chainbrakes and another saw, maybe an 028- not sure about that. I have never run any of those saws, but my guess is that they are going to have more torque and be less "peaky" than the smaller displacement modern engine design MS291...I think my friend was lifting the handle and muscling the saw through the cut instead of letting it do the work and intermittently, but frequently, bogged the saw allowing the clutch to slip and generate heat and burned up the plastic on the MS291. I can't remember what sprocket/chain/bar combo he was running, but that would be interesting to know, as well, because the wrong combo would allow the engine to bog more frequently and the clutch to slip. Operator with years and years of experience was cutting the same way he had always cut and didn't adjust his style for the new saw. He wanted it covered under warranty and Stihl said "I have a potty mouth", and rightfully so!

I know these scenarios don't apply to this situation because there is no way possible that it was operator error even though it was a brand new saw to him with a (likely) very different powerband and maybe a less than optimal sprocket/bar/chain combo, just some food for thought since the OP has not offered any other viable options on what part failed leading to the carnage and which should be warrantied. Maybe ********** (a different website referenced above) will give some advice on decorating his living room and also what happened to the saw.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 27, 2015)

Bar oiler stopped working or stopped up, that would melt a few things. Look at the bar and see if it is burn't


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## super3 (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> I established at the beginning that I have more than enough cutting experience to know what I'm doing.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Sorry for my abrasive posts. I came here looking for advice and got plenty of it as well as some flak. Not all of it was good natured but I guess this is how this site is. Maybe I need to get some thicker skin. 

People have made some comments about the fact that I joined two years ago. Yes, I did register a user name, I just didn't have time then to go on the forum. It isn't because I was "lurking" around getting information for whatever purpose.

It is not outside the realm of possibility at all that this was caused by operator error, be it neglect or just an overlooked mistake. Be that it is may I feel that I was operating the saw within normal operating procedure. If Stihl wants pictures of the outside of the brake drum or the sprocket to help their diagnosis then I will send them along and post them here when Stihl makes their decision. I'm sure that will answer some questions for people.

Just like other forums, we all are here because we have similar interests and that should be enough to make it easy to be somewhat cordial. I was taken aback by a lot of the posts I viewed as presumptuous and insulting. I admit I am not used to forums where people just say what they think and are free to insult others. I apologize for my reactions that were reciprocally insulting.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Sorry for my abrasive posts. I came here looking for advice and got plenty of it as well as some flak. Not all of it was good natured but I guess this is how this site is. Maybe I need to get some thicker skin.
> 
> People have made some comments about the fact that I joined two years ago. Yes, I did register a user name, I just didn't have time then to go on the forum. It isn't because I was "lurking" around getting information for whatever purpose.
> 
> ...


So what do you think happened after all this?


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## opinion (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Sorry for my abrasive posts. I came here looking for advice and got plenty of it as well as some flak. Not all of it was good natured but I guess this is how this site is. Maybe I need to get some thicker skin.
> 
> People have made some comments about the fact that I joined two years ago. Yes, I did register a user name, I just didn't have time then to go on the forum. It isn't because I was "lurking" around getting information for whatever purpose.
> 
> ...


Stuff happens... Are manufacturers supposed to warranty something because every customer says they've been using saws for over 20 years?


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

opinion said:


> Stuff happens... Are manufacturers supposed to warranty something because every customer says they've been using saws for over 20 years?




I've said all along that this is up to Stihl. I am just waiting for them to respond to my emails so I can plead my case. Some people may not agree with this. That is fine. I imagine that many people, whether they feel they made a mistake or not, would try to get a warranty claim out of a saw that burnt out after 1 hour. If people out there are going to sit here and say that they would not be on the phone with Stihl if they were in my shoes, then I'd find that a bit hard to believe.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

After reading 9 pages of posts and gleaning quite a bit of information, I'm not going to say that I didn't make a mistake or that I absolutely deserve to have the repair covered. But I'm going to try. If people think that I'm being ridiculous then so be it. Thankfully I don't live and die by what a few of people that I've never met think of me.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> So what do you think happened after all this?



I honestly think during my last three or four cuts through the spruce that either:
A. I was trying to hard to power through it quickly and somehow caused some overheat situation while the chain was moving through the wood - ie RPMs to high for the chain speed
B. I was leaning on the chain brake (NOT engaging it) causing a rub situation similar to gently pressing the brakes on your car, or
C. Some internal failure that I am not knowledgeable enough to explain, such as a bearing failure or manufacturing defect.

Just going by what people have posted, it seems that C could be a bit of a reach. I don't know. When it first happened I thought for sure, 99%, that it was C. But not so much now after reading everything.

What I DON'T think happened but some people have mentioned:
-high idle with chain brake engaged
- chain brake engaged during cutting
- improper bar and chain for the saw (i was running a brand new OEM 16" bar/chisel tooth chain straight from the dealer that came with new saw purchase)
- dull chain
- chain on backwards
- no bar oil
- over rev with chain stopped in deep wood


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## super3 (Jan 27, 2015)

If 041 in your title is an indication of what you were used to running in the past, that could be part of the problem. 041's had some torque, you could lean on them quite a bit. 291 is one you just need to let it cut.


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## big t double (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> I've said all along that this is up to Stihl. I am just waiting for them to respond to my emails so I can plead my case. Some people may not agree with this. That is fine. I imagine that many people, whether they feel they made a mistake or not, would try to get a warranty claim out of a saw that burnt out after 1 hour. If people out there are going to sit here and say that they would not be on the phone with Stihl if they were in my shoes, then I'd find that a bit hard to believe.


I say all the power to ya...like I said above, sometimes stihl will cover things like this on good faith. ive seen it...ive got things covered for customers. stihl paid parts, customer paid labor. good luck man.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

What gauge/pitch chain and how many tooth sprocket? (I ask only b/c I have seen some crazy setup combos from some dealers).


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## AOrtlieb (Jan 27, 2015)

Had a semi-similar situation about a month ago as well. I was cutting with a friend's 291 in Northern Michigan. The temp was around 10 above, but the saw had set overnight in the barn, and the temp had dropped below zero. Cutting through red oak when I noticed smoke from the bar, which at first I thought was steam from hitting snow. Sprocket seized as I was shutting it down. Went inside and used the search function on this site which was when I first learned about summer versus winter weight bar oil. Sprocket turned again after cooling down, let the bar oil warn indoors overnight, and was back to cutting the next morning. Never did seem to throw much oil, however. 

If the sprocket hadn't seized, I was probably well on the way to melting it down.


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## Tyrel (Jan 27, 2015)

Feel bad for the o.p. What makes even more of a bummer is that it was his fathers new saw. That and all the slack he getting from here. Very repetitive. Operator error or not, it seems to happen a lot with that model of saw. I would think stihl would have put a little more ingenuity into it. Especially to accommodate for the not so saw savvy home owner.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> What gauge/pitch chain and how many tooth sprocket? (I ask only b/c I have seen some crazy setup combos from some dealers).



3/8th pitch chain, I'm not sure how many tooth sprocket? The saw was completely stock, I'll have to look when I get a chance. I don't have the saw with me right now.


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## watsonr (Jan 27, 2015)

If you find yourself pushing down on the bar either by pushing down on the front handle or pulling up on the rear while the saw is dawged in.... your slipping the clutch. Being in a hurry with a dull chain, to just finish up the last few cuts has probably cost people more saws than will ever be admitted. Wouldn't surprise me that some guys even had scored pistons because of the added demand placed on the saw because of pulling up/dull chain and the subsequent heat it generated.

Dawgs/spikes are there to support the weight of the saw while using the saw in the "felling position" while horizontal cutting. And all to often we see users in almost every you tube video pulling up on the rear handles, possibly taxing the saw beyond it's intended limits. Why everybody here replies "that saw won't pull that bar"... yes it will, the clutch won't take it, or the oiler won't perform or the motor will stall....

I wish you luck.


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## HuskStihl (Jan 27, 2015)

Post some close-ups of the cutters. The clutch was slipping. You were either trying to get more out of the saw than it was able to safely deliver, the chain was not as sharp as you think (your idea of sharp may differ from mine), or there was a defect with the clutch/brake/etc.


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## HuskStihl (Jan 27, 2015)

Also, this style saw is not forgiving of heat. I had a coil start going out while stumping and smoked the clutch. It was on a mag cased saw with an outboard clutch so no big deal, but it would have melted a inboard plastic case saw


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## AKDoug (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> 3/8th pitch chain, I'm not sure how many tooth sprocket? The saw was completely stock, I'll have to look when I get a chance. I don't have the saw with me right now.


Then the shop converted it. They come with .325 stock. This opens a whole new realm of possibility if the shop converted the saw and used the wrong drum or other mistake.

Get a part number off the drum if you can.


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## opinion (Jan 27, 2015)

It uses a spur sprocket. That saw can handle a 3/8ths.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

MS 291 Specifications - Mid-Range Use
DISPLACEMENT 55.5 cc (3.39 cu. in.)
ENGINE POWER 2.8 kW (3.76 bhp)
POWERHEAD WEIGHT 5.6 kg (12.3 Ibs.)
GUIDE BAR LENGTHS* (Recommended ranges) 40 to 50 cm (16" to 20")
FUEL CAPACITY 500 cc (16.9 oz.)
CHAIN OIL CAPACITY 240 cc (8.12 oz.)
OILOMATIC® CHAIN .325 RM3


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Then the shop converted it. They come with .325 stock. This opens a whole new realm of possibility if the shop converted the saw and used the wrong drum or other mistake.
> 
> Get a part number off the drum if you can.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

I agree that it will pull it, especially with a 16" bar but according to the 2013 Stihl catalog it should have .325p .063ga 26 RM3 67 chain on bar 3003 812 7013. OP says it has full chisel and 3/8p from the dealer, will be interested to see the sprocket (it could have been converted to a rim sprocket, too). 3/8 .050 aggressive chain may have contributed to the heat generated around the clutch.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> I agree that it will pull it, especially with a 16" bar but according to the 2013 Stihl catalog it should have .325p .063ga 26 RM3 67 chain on bar 3003 812 7013. OP says it has full chisel and 3/8p from the dealer, will be interested to see the sprocket (it could have been converted to a rim sprocket, too). 3/8 .050 aggressive chain may have contributed to the heat generated around the clutch.


What do you think Stihl would say if you put a 3/8 setup on your self and it called for .325 then had a meltdown and you wanted it covered
?


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

I think they would tell me to get lost. I actually did this to my MS290, and with the right sprocket, it is fine with 3/8 50 chain. But I also did it knowing that I was taking full responsibility for what happened to the saw.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> I think they would tell me to get lost. I actually did this to my MS290, and with the right sprocket, it is fine with 3/8 50 chain. But I also did it knowing that I was taking full responsibility for what happened to the saw.


So on the other hand if they sold him the saw that way it would be on them logically. Why would they do that though?


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 27, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Could it be possible that the op simply neglected to grease the bar tip, thus seizing the tip, giving a chain brake on symptom, then putting the brake on when it was actually off, thus causing this irresponsible damage?


 That's something I always forget to do..


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## opinion (Jan 27, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> What do you think Stihl would say if you put a 3/8 setup on your self and it called for .325 then had a meltdown and you wanted it covered
> ?


They offer 3/8 050 7T as an option. I don't see why the dealer would put that setup on if they customer didn't ask for it since it comes from the factory with .325.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

opinion said:


> They offer 3/8 050 7T as an option. I don't see why the dealer would put that setup on if they customer didn't ask for it since it comes from the factory with .325.


I don't get that part either.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> I don't get that part either.



Sorry for the confusion, I just got home and checked and it is .325.


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## RedFir Down (Jan 27, 2015)

Can you post a few more pictures? A close up of the saw where the damage is, one of the inside of the clutch drum and one of the outside of the clutch drum. 
That will really help figure this out.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Sorry for the confusion, I just got home and checked and it is .325.


 I don't see much difference between them on a 290 size saw, I like 3/8 because most of my saws use that and I don't have to stock up on both..


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I don't see much difference between them on a 290 size saw, I like 3/8 because most of my saws use that and I don't have to stock up on both..


You will in Oak .


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I don't see much difference between them on a 290 size saw, I like 3/8 because most of my saws use that and I don't have to stock up on both..



All my saws are 3/8 as well.


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## albert (Jan 27, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Bar oiler stopped working or stopped up, that would melt a few things. Look at the bar and see if it is burn't


 The bar pad on the case looks ok, usually gets melted if no oil to bar


----------



## albert (Jan 27, 2015)

What is over rev in the wood? Anytime the chain slows or stops above idle, you have a slipping clutch, ie heat. Even slight slippage will generate a surprising amount of heat in a very short time.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> All my saws are 3/8 as well.



As are any of my bucking/felling saws, just easier to manage chains/bars which is why I converted the ms290.

Depending on the dealer, I could see a situation where they don't have a setup that the customer is requesting and so they put an "optional" setup on it to make the sale. 

Not an issue any more though since the saw in question has .325 as it should.


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## CTYank (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> Hahaha tree monkey that was classic! Keep 'em coming! Why don't you put your name and address up at the end of your posts and I'll tell you in person?



Now that is really over the top. Sure sounds like threatening. How 'bout name & address Mister Man?


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

Yeah, the thread went sideways for awhile but I think it's back on track now...


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Yeah, the thread went sideways for awhile but I think it's back on track now...


----------



## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

A 291 will handle a 3/8 chain if you respect it for what you have . Chain has to be sharp not just sort of sharp . And yes as stated earlier it's hard to bog a 041 in relation to new saws . 
It would not surprise me if stihl covers the repair under goodwill . Buying a saw every 20-30 years doesn't give you a lot of standing as a loyal customer but it is worth a try . If I where talking to stihl I would not be adamant about it not being operator error . I would just say I was using the saw in a manner that you felt the saw was built for . And that you are disappointed that a quality saw like a stihl would fail after limited use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Tyrel said:


> I think a few of the arrogant ones need a good threatening. Make them step back and realize that there might just be someone crazy enough to show up to you door step and shove a ms 291 right up your a--. Stranger things have happend. Can't really think of any though.


 I work with a guy that drove 200 miles and got arrested threatening a guy over a broken VW starter he paid 50$ for . It does happen but I think this meathead is the exception to the rule . 
Now the guy that flew 1500 miles to accuse me of messing around with his gf was another story 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> I work with a guy...
> Now the guy that flew 1500 miles to accuse me of messing around with his gf was another story
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do tell...


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## Tyrel (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> I work with a guy that drove 200 miles and got arrested threatening a guy over a broken VW starter he paid 50$ for . It does happen but I think this meathead is the exception to the rule .
> Now the guy that flew 1500 miles to accuse me of messing around with his gf was another story
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I'm talking about. People will do crazy things, that why I said what I said. Not to anger you CTYank. Jeeez hope you don't show up at mine. So angry.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Do tell...


 The fella flew from Texas to pa to confront me . He was pretty determined and upset . I had no idea she had a bf but then again I didn't ask or really care . He found me at my work and tried to corner me. He was acting all big and bad till I picked up a 5 pound hammer . I denied everything and my manager kicked him out . When I got home he was at my house . He yelled at me for a bit then left . I understand why he flew so far . She was built for speed and didn't disappoint if you catch my drift . It didn't last much longer after his visit










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 27, 2015)

Unfortunately it seems like many young people today, can't seem to handle plain English and hard cold facts. Myself and others, said it how it is. Instead of looking inward, he said we don't know what we're talking about. Typically behavior of young people today. 

West stick around and relax. Running saws can be fun and a rewarding experience, when you really understand how to setup and run a saw properly.


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## CTYank (Jan 27, 2015)

Tyrel said:


> That's what I'm talking about. People will do crazy things, that why I said what I said. Not to anger you CTYank. Jeeez hope you don't show up at mine. So angry.



What are you talking about "so angry"? What I'm saying is that if you're suggesting or condoning that, I strongly oppose it. It is totally inappropriate, besides grounds for *arrest*. Were I to make such a leap, you'd be angry at how I'd construe your judgement, so I won't.

"Boys will be boys" does NOT apply here, and, yes the OP was way out of line, in many ways. At least he caught on eventually.

Surprisingly nobody clued him in that if he wanted a saw from West Germany, he'd do waaaaaaay better with a Dolmar. No comparison, in so many ways.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

Anyone bad ass enough to drive across country to give a stranger a piece of their mind uses a much more badass saw than an MS291.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

[IMG said:


> http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/27/ac8a7a169eaab1297d9c2efcd9c5466a.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to tell your story.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

CTYank said:


> What are you talking about "so angry"? What I'm saying is that if you're suggesting or condoning that, I strongly oppose it. It is totally inappropriate, besides grounds for *arrest*. Were I to make such a leap, you'd be angry at how I'd construe your judgement, so I won't.
> 
> "Boys will be boys" does NOT apply here, and, yes the OP was way out of line, in many ways. At least he caught on eventually.
> 
> Surprisingly nobody clued him in that if he wanted a saw from West Germany, he'd do waaaaaaay better with a Dolmar. No comparison, in so many ways.



Easy CTyank. Don't fall for Brushape's latest BS.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

boxygen said:


> Thanks for taking the time to tell your story.


Anytime . I had trouble finding photos that where appropriate .... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Anytime . I had trouble finding photos that where appropriate ....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



PM sent with phone number to text to....


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Anytime . I had trouble finding photos that where appropriate ....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We have email addresses


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Did I open a can of worms here ??



haha posting the wrong photo .






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

Wait a second, where did that photo go?


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

This thread is ridiculous...nobody even reads...the 291 is not even my saw. I'm not going to bother responding to the other comments because everyone else has moved on with their life. Let's move along ... And it's hilarious to talk about forum rules while at the same time people are on here highjacking the thread. Not that I mind, keep posting the pictures.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

This thread has taken an amazing turn.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Where we talking about camping I can't remember 


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

That's the last of them


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> A 291 will handle a 3/8 chain if you respect it for what you have . Chain has to be sharp not just sort of sharp . And yes as stated earlier it's hard to bog a 041 in relation to new saws .
> It would not surprise me if stihl covers the repair under goodwill . Buying a saw every 20-30 years doesn't give you a lot of standing as a loyal customer but it is worth a try . If I where talking to stihl I would not be adamant about it not being operator error . I would just say I was using the saw in a manner that you felt the saw was built for . And that you are disappointed that a quality saw like a stihl would fail after limited use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That sums it up right there. If I've learned anything in this thread it is that operator error played a part somewhere, perhaps a significant one.

That's a pretty funny story.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

huh, I like this kind of sideways thread...I have PM ya know.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

I hope that young lady's new boyfriend is not a chainsaw enthusiast.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> huh, I like this kind of sideways thread...I have PM ya know.


 Hahahaha [emoji33]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

boxygen said:


> I hope that young lady's new boyfriend is not a chainsaw enthusiast.


 If she is around you would not be on here 


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> If she is around you would not be on here
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good point. I cant argue with that. LOL


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

who makes your coffee in the morning ?


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)




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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

I guess there is one thing we all agree on..


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

she was always up to go riding



and would take you to the ER when need be . Call you a idiot . But would still take you 


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## mopar3 (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> That sums it up right there. If I've learned anything in this thread it is that operator error played a part somewhere, perhaps a significant one.
> 
> That's a pretty funny story.


 I have an idea about the saws failure. A clutch will not hold its max load until it is broken in and the shoes are seated to the drum. As a mechanic when replacing an AC compressor the instructions would say to turn the AC on and cycle the clutch 50 times under load to burnish the clutch. So maybe the clutch was not seated in yet and was unable to hold the full load of the cut. Maybe the clutch was defective and slipped right from the get go. If the drum was warped the shoes would never fully contact so they would not hold. If the clutch drum was dropped before install it could easily be warped.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Unfortunately it seems like many young people today, can't seem to handle plain English and hard cold facts. Myself and others, said it how it is. Instead of looking inward, he said we don't know what we're talking about. Typically behavior of young people today.
> 
> West stick around and relax. Running saws can be fun and a rewarding experience, when you really understand how to setup and run a saw properly.



I think you're generalizing but I'm fine to look on this as learning experience. I misjudged this forum from the start but I'll catch on. The response was unexpected and it is difficult to deal with sometimes when people can just say whatever they want and make assumptions based on very little evidence.


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## boxygen (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 is the new ambassador of AS he can get anyone to settle their differences and move on.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

mopar3 said:


> I have an idea about the saws failure. A clutch will not hold its max load until it is broken in and the shoes are seated to the drum. As a mechanic when replacing an AC compressor the instructions would say to turn the AC on and cycle the clutch 50 times under load to burnish the clutch. So maybe the clutch was not seated in yet and was unable to hold the full load of the cut. Maybe the clutch was defective and slipped right from the get go. If the drum was warped the shoes would never fully contact so they would not hold. If the clutch drum was dropped before install it could easily be warped.




This is new information to me.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

boxygen said:


> Knobby57 is the new ambassador of AS he can get anyone to settle their differences and move on.



Seems that way huh? But I apologized 4 pages ago. People are just dredging up heated exchanges from 7 pages ago.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 27, 2015)

mopar3 said:


> I have an idea about the saws failure. A clutch will not hold its max load until it is broken in and the shoes are seated to the drum. As a mechanic when replacing an AC compressor the instructions would say to turn the AC on and cycle the clutch 50 times under load to burnish the clutch. So maybe the clutch was not seated in yet and was unable to hold the full load of the cut. Maybe the clutch was defective and slipped right from the get go. If the drum was warped the shoes would never fully contact so they would not hold. If the clutch drum was dropped before install it could easily be warped.



Would there be bad vibration and bearing damage from a warped clutch drum, although maybe hidden/diminished by the spring anti-vib, especially if he is used to the AV of the 041? Easy enough to check the roundness of the clutch drum. 

I would think that if things were wrong from the beginning it would have burned up in the first 5 minutes, not at around an hour. (As AKDoug showed, only takes less than a minute of clutch slippage to get things smoking).


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## mopar3 (Jan 27, 2015)

West041 any new tool like a saw should really be broken in before running it hard. Some people will say it takes a few tanks of fuel for the rings to seat. I always go easy on a new saw the first couple tanks.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> I posted the wrong photo . These are close
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i see nips...... YOUR BOONED! S S will be here soon young man!


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 27, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> i see nips...... YOUR BOONED! S S will be here soon young man!


After SS is done saving all of them he'll start deleting lol


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> i see nips...... YOUR BOONED! S S will be here soon young man!


 Maybe your eyes are better than mine lol[emoji15]. I wish I was young !!! Just turned 40[emoji19]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mopar3 (Jan 27, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Would there be bad vibration and bearing damage from a warped clutch drum, although maybe hidden/diminished by the spring anti-vib, especially if he is used to the AV of the 041? Easy enough to check the roundness of the clutch drum.
> 
> I would think that if things were wrong from the beginning it would have burned up in the first 5 minutes, not at around an hour. (As AKDoug showed, only takes less than a minute of clutch slippage to get things smoking).


I doubt you would have notice any vibration. My theory is that the clutch only slipped a short time while bucking the log and then was done. Just posting what came to mind when reading about the saws failure.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

I would think the clutch would be burnished in by the first tank of fuel . There is a lot of heat there under normal use to get it done 


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 27, 2015)

west041 said:


> I think you're generalizing but I'm fine to look on this as learning experience. I misjudged this forum from the start but I'll catch on. The response was unexpected and it is difficult to deal with sometimes when people can just say whatever they want and make assumptions based on very little evidence.



Cool beans.

Yes I and others jumped to a conclusion, we did so based upon knowledge and experience, which I now think you realize.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 27, 2015)

mopar3 said:


> I doubt you would have notice any vibration. My theory is that the clutch only slipped a short time while bucking the log and then was done. Just posting what came to mind when reading about the saws failure.



We can theorize until the cows come home. However the simpleest explanation is almost always the correct one.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Maybe your eyes are better than mine lol[emoji15]. I wish I was young !!! Just turned 40[emoji19]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll be 40 in November and I can see a nip a mile away!


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## 1 stihl nut (Jan 27, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> Cool beans.
> 
> Yes I and others jumped to a conclusion, we did so based upon knowledge and experience, which I now think you realize.



I thought knowledge and experience is supposed to keep one from jumping to conclusions.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 27, 2015)

Well I guess I'm just a but guy 


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

1 stihl nut said:


> I thought knowledge and experience is supposed to keep one from jumping to conclusions.


If it was your saw that came back after loaning it what would you suspect?


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

Well I think people can believe me when I say I didn't run it with the brake on, and I can certainly accept that it's possible that I operated the saw in such a way that it generated significant heat in the clutch region. I will add some more pictures tomorrow, the battery was dead in my camera.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm fine with people jumping to the simplest conclusion based on what they saw. It still leaves open other possibilities. I was just pretty defensive from the start, which led to the middle 5 pages of conversation.


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## 1 stihl nut (Jan 27, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> If it was your saw that came back after loaning it what would you suspect?




I'm not sure. If the guy borrowing it had 20 years experience running saws I would give him the benefit of the doubt. 

But this isn't about any of us lending out our saw. It's about the op trying to understand why his saw failed. Ultimately it can be considered operator error, but if the saw can fail that easily in an experienced user's hand, how can Stihl expect it to hold up to the bulk of the crowd they market it to?

Sure....if the guy ran it with the brake on, or bogged it out or whatever, but he established early on he hadn't. Whatever signs the saw gave him must have been subtle, and a lesser experienced user certainly wouldn't caught them. 

Perhaps his experience with older saws was his downfall, but regardless this failure shouldn't be laid entirely on him.


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## west041 (Jan 27, 2015)

That's nice to hear, thanks. I have spent many an hour on the old 041 FB (hence the screen name), which, although not a favorite to many now due to its increased weight, was a very torquey saw and pretty much indestructible. So we can't rule that out as a factor.


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## jughead500 (Jan 27, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> who makes your coffee in the morning ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Even though you posted the Girlie Pictures........ you suck for this one.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 27, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> I'll be 40 in November and I can see a nip a mile away!


 I think the pc police call it a "wardrobe malfunction".


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## CR888 (Jan 27, 2015)

There will,be evidence of what happened to the saw if its inspected properly. Don't forget we are dealing with a new saw so a proper inspection will solve this. l think light pressure was applied to the brake handle while at wot which will cause failure fast and many would not realise it happening as they believe the brake is either on/off which is not the case.


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## lone wolf (Jan 27, 2015)

CR888 said:


> There will,be evidence of what happened to the saw if its inspected properly. Don't forget we are dealing with a new saw so a proper inspection will solve this. l think light pressure was applied to the brake handle while at wot which will cause failure fast and many would not realise it happening as they believe the brake is either on/off which is not the case.


Maybe huh.


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## Tyrel (Jan 28, 2015)

CTYank said:


> What are you talking about "so angry"? What I'm saying is that if you're suggesting or condoning that, I strongly oppose it. It is totally inappropriate, besides grounds for *arrest*. Were I to make such a leap, you'd be angry at how I'd construe your judgement, so I won't.
> 
> "Boys will be boys" does NOT apply here, and, yes the OP was way out of line, in many ways. At least he caught on eventually.
> 
> Surprisingly nobody clued him in that if he wanted a saw from West Germany, he'd do waaaaaaay better with a Dolmar. No comparison, in so many ways.


I was talking about "so angry" because you told me to G.F myself, usually people that are angry say that. I was only suggesting that those kind of things happen. I definitely don't condone such behavior though. I personally did not threaten anyone, including yourself. Simply implying that a few of you guys should not use your superior knowledge to beat a guy up who just ruined his fathers new saw. Some day the guy might really track you down. I'm sorry if what I Said was totally inappropriate for you CTYank. I hope I don't get arrested. I Think I might be a little too pretty for jail.


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

I hate to say it ,that is a stihl defect that I've been seeing on a lot of the compsite 
Housing saws. I have 3 290's now in my 
Shop waiting to fix and there in great shape except for the badly melted housing and bad clutch and oiler. But I might not fix them knowing that there's something odd going on about there clutch or chain brake assembly. If I were u I'd look into a ms 360 or 036 and stay away from the composite housing saws. This really bothers me that they did that to u.


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## 1 stihl nut (Jan 28, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Even though you posted the Girlie Pictures........ you suck for this one.




If he's got this much, he's got more.


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## Tyrel (Jan 28, 2015)

Brianlol said:


> I hate to say it ,that is a stihl defect that I've been seeing on a lot of the compsite
> Housing saws. I have 3 290's now in my
> Shop waiting to fix and there in great shape except for the badly melted housing and bad clutch and oiler. But I might not fix them knowing that there's something odd going on about there clutch or chain brake assembly. If I were u I'd look into a ms 360 or 036 and stay away from the composite housing saws. This really bothers me that they did that to u.


There you go West041. Im sure the guys who were giving you a hard time will be apologizing any time now...not


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## Fubar (Jan 28, 2015)

1 stihl nut said:


> I'm not sure. If the guy borrowing it had 20 years experience running saws I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> But this isn't about any of us lending out our saw. It's about the op trying to understand why his saw failed. Ultimately it can be considered operator error, but if the saw can fail that easily in an experienced user's hand, how can Stihl expect it to hold up to the bulk of the crowd they market it to?
> 
> ...


+1 ....it seems to me that not just Stihl but all the other saw companies are slipping in the quality control and the public relations departments , i have seen idiots that didn't know a chainsaw from a hole in the ground , but i still believe in the old saying the customer is always right , it seems that this is a design flaw , be it the chain break , clutch or cover, this is not the only saw this has happened to , i have used and abused about everything on the planet , and i have smoked a few clutches , but i have never set a saw on fire, the good old .034's and .044's you couldn't kill them even if you dropped a tree on them , just throw a new bar on it and straighten the handle the best you can and go back to cutting , new saws , engine failures , other assorted problems .. look at all the reconditioned huskys and other saws for sale , i think it has to do with parts made in china ,this seems more common with consumer grade saws , lots of people don't have the money or the need for a $1000 pro grade saw , a consumer grade saw should have a tolerance for more abuse than a spruce log, i was looking at the new Stihls , all i can say is i am glad i didn't buy one ...


----------



## AKDoug (Jan 28, 2015)

Brianlol said:


> I hate to say it ,that is a stihl defect that I've been seeing on a lot of the compsite
> Housing saws. I have 3 290's now in my
> Shop waiting to fix and there in great shape except for the badly melted housing and bad clutch and oiler. But I might not fix them knowing that there's something odd going on about there clutch or chain brake assembly. If I were u I'd look into a ms 360 or 036 and stay away from the composite housing saws. This really bothers me that they did that to u.


There is nothing odd about the clutch or chain brake setup. I probably worked on a hundred homeowner grade Stihl saws last year, fully half of them being 290's. ONE had melted plastic around the clutch, and that was repairable. This is not a chronic issue.


----------



## Wisneaky (Jan 28, 2015)

boxygen said:


> This thread has taken an amazing turn.


yeah this thread finally got interesting when Knobby57 started posting photos.


----------



## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Close up of brake band/oil pump worm gear


inside brake band facing bar area


facing handle:


inside drum


outside of drum


opposite side


clutch



Let me know if you guys want more pictures/different angles. Work was cancelled for me due to snow so I have some time to look this stuff over.

Am I to infer from the grooving on the outside of the drum that for whatever reason the brake band was dragging on the clutch, hence the excessive heat? Does anyone see wear on the inside of the drum indicative of clutch slippage? I only see a little bit of melted residue, which would seem to point to something between the brake band/clutch drum causing the heat. 

I'll let the experts decide.


----------



## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Close up of brake band/oil pump worm gear
> View attachment 398902
> 
> inside brake band facing bar area
> ...


Looks like it was in contact now dont it?


----------



## watsonr (Jan 28, 2015)

I'd say the clutch drum expanded due to heat and contacted the brake band. The clutch shoes themselves are severely worn and you can see the drag marks... means it was slipping. Even the inside of the clutch drum shows excessive wear. 

If your going to fix that saw, put new seals in as well, that one side is probably toast!


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> Looks like it was in contact now dont it?



I agree. But that leaves open the question, why did this happen? I know I didn't engage the chain brake. Clutch slippage is one thing, that would make a hell of a lot more sense to me. 

From what I have gathered, for the drum to have groove marks on the outside would be telltale signs of chain brake abuse, correct? I guess what I'm asking is if there is any conceivable situation where there would be heat generated by the chain brake with it in the off position. Because I still can't see how I'd have operated it with the brake on. And I didn't set it down at high idle with the chain brake engaged either.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

watsonr said:


> I'd say the clutch drum expanded due to heat and contacted the brake band. The clutch shoes themselves are severely worn and you can see the drag marks... means it was slipping. Even the inside of the clutch drum shows excessive wear.
> 
> If your going to fix that saw, put new seals in as well, that one side is probably toast!



Oh, now that would be a more conceivable situation. Somehow I operated in such a way that there was clutch slippage. If that is what the pictures show there (I can't pick out clutch shoe wear just by looking at it), then I can accept that. 

The dealer recommended new seals and a new engine case.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Oh, now that would be a more conceivable situation. Somehow I operated in such a way that there was clutch slippage. If that is what the pictures show there (I can't pick out clutch shoe wear just by looking at it), then I can accept that.
> 
> The dealer recommended new seals and a new engine case.


What seems to be wrong with the case?


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

I don't know, but it's on the estimate. You should ask them


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> I don't know, but it's on the estimate. You should ask them


Well look at it.


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## CTYank (Jan 28, 2015)

Tyrel said:


> I was talking about "so angry" because you told me to G.F myself, usually people that are angry say that. I was only suggesting that those kind of things happen. I definitely don't condone such behavior though. I personally did not threaten anyone, including yourself. Simply implying that a few of *you guys should not use your superior knowledge to beat a guy up who just ruined his fathers new saw*. Some day the guy might really track you down. I'm sorry if what I Said was totally inappropriate for you CTYank. I hope I don't get arrested. I Think I might be a little too pretty for jail.



Sure didn't look that way to me. Westy was given good advice based on the limited info he shared. and he was prompted many times for really conclusive pix. An experienced, competent sawyer should have known by the smell that something really bad was going on in a light-duty saw. Yet he insisted on people signing on to his agenda. Given that, he was treated pretty gently, IMHO.

You like to get cute with your assumptions. Understand that threatening/menacing are not a giggling matter, in most jurisdictions.


----------



## Knobby57 (Jan 28, 2015)

watsonr said:


> I'd say the clutch drum expanded due to heat and contacted the brake band. The clutch shoes themselves are severely worn and you can see the drag marks... means it was slipping. Even the inside of the clutch drum shows excessive wear.
> 
> If your going to fix that saw, put new seals in as well, that one side is probably toast!


 Yup what he said . That clutch was slipping . It probably hit the band when the bearing melted 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## watsonr (Jan 28, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Yup what he said . That clutch was slipping . It probably hit the band when the bearing melted
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



yep, not a lot of wear marks on the outside but some.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 28, 2015)

Maybe the saw makers should put a warning light on the top of the saw to let you know that the brake is on while running.


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## Definitive Dave (Jan 28, 2015)

I looks at least on my screen like the crank end is blued like it got hot too, just wondering if the crank bearings might be compromised as well.
I am not sure if I would rebuild that one.
DDave


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## watsonr (Jan 28, 2015)

it's blue and brown... why I said the seals are probably toast as well


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

CTYank said:


> Sure didn't look that way to me. Westy was given good advice based on the limited info he shared. and he was prompted many times for really conclusive pix. An experienced, competent sawyer should have known by the smell that something really bad was going on in a light-duty saw. Yet he insisted on people signing on to his agenda. Given that, he was treated pretty gently, IMHO.



Take it easy guys, don't get into it on my behalf. I've apologized and moved on, and you should too. I said some stupid stuff, but treemonkey wasn't setting a record for empathy either.




a. palmer jr. said:


> Maybe the saw makers should put a warning light on the top of the saw to let you know that the brake is on while running.



These are the kind of bonehead responses that got us into this mess in the first place. The time for sarcasm and cheap shots is over, let's just try to keep it civil, k? I think most people would agree that I would know if I had the brake on, and it seems from the responses to the pictures thus far that the culprit is increasingly looking like clutch slippage that led to a lot of heat in the brake band area.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> What seems to be wrong with the case?





west041 said:


> I don't know, but it's on the estimate. You should ask them





lone wolf said:


> Well look at it.



Maybe I'm missing something, but you need to be more clear whether you're making a sarcastic remark or trying to help me out with my problem. I'm just trying to give everyone the info they need.


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## sunfish (Jan 28, 2015)

Part of the reason for all the sarcasm, is most folks who have run saws very much would have known something was wrong before the saw got that hot. 

This is also one reason I prefer metal cases and outboard clutchs... Just sayin.


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## super3 (Jan 28, 2015)

Get the brake band out and the pump drive (what's left of it) out of there and it will be more clear if the plastic is too far gone for repair.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but you need to be more clear whether you're making a sarcastic remark or trying to help me out with my problem. I'm just trying to give everyone the info they need.


I mean just look at it to see if it really needs repair. I cant tell from the pic but what is wrong with the case anything? I don't see it?


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

sunfish said:


> This is also one reason I prefer metal cases and outboard clutchs... Just sayin.



I prefer them as well. All my saws are older and metal. Nobody reads what I write, it wasn't my saw.



sunfish said:


> Part of the reason for all the sarcasm, is most folks who have run saws very much would have known something was wrong before the saw got that hot.



I see this arrogance in my work field as well. People always love to act like it would never happen to them, until it does. Everyone makes mistakes.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> I mean just look at it to see if it really needs repair. I cant tell from the pic but what is wrong with the case anything? I don't see it?


 
Still looks usable to me. If it was my saw I'd just roll with it.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Still looks usable to me. If it was my saw I'd just roll with it.


Talk to Stihl yet?


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> Talk to Stihl yet?



received this reply:

"Dealer sent me picture of your MS291. The bluing on the clutch, break band mark on the clutch drum. And melting of the housing around the clutch drum prove the saw was run with the chain break engaged. This will not be covered under warranty since it is not a manufacture defect. "

So according to Stihl, the only way to melt plastic is to run it with the chain brake on.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> received this reply:
> 
> "Dealer sent me picture of your MS291. The bluing on the clutch, break band mark on the clutch drum. And melting of the housing around the clutch drum prove the saw was run with the chain break engaged. This will not be covered under warranty since it is not a manufacture defect. "
> 
> So according to Stihl, the only way to melt plastic is to run it with the chain brake on.


Maybe it was on and you did not know until it cooked?


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## old-cat (Jan 28, 2015)

Some people just have NO sense of humor! My neighbor bought a brand new MS250 then put straight gas in it and the dealer only charged him for one hour labor. TOTAL!


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## Rockjock (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> received this reply:
> 
> "Dealer sent me picture of your MS291. The bluing on the clutch, break band mark on the clutch drum. And melting of the housing around the clutch drum prove the saw was run with the chain break engaged. This will not be covered under warranty since it is not a manufacture defect. "
> 
> So according to Stihl, the only way to melt plastic is to run it with the chain brake on.




My suggestion is make a list of what is needed to get the saw back up and running and post it. I have no doubt many here would be more than glad to contribute to your saw repair. Think of it as a peace offering from us to you!


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> My suggestion is make a list of what is needed to get the saw back up and running and post it. I have no doubt many here would be more than glad to contribute to your saw repair. Think of it as a peace offering from us to you!


No doubt he will get some used parts.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 28, 2015)

Certainly a good illustration of why a clutch should not be located in proximity to a material that can melt - or at least if it is it should be one that is not difficult or expensive to replace (like a clutch cover). 

If a clutch is slipping over a period of time, for whatever reason, then some percentage of the mechanical energy of the engine is going into the clutch. Since that is a lot of energy and the clutch cannot dissipate it well, it gets damn hot fast.


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## Rockjock (Jan 28, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Certainly a good illustration of why a clutch should not be located in proximity to a material that can melt - or at least if it is it should be one that is not difficult or expensive to replace (like a clutch cover).
> 
> If a clutch is slipping over a period of time, for whatever reason, then some percentage of the mechanical energy of the engine is going into the clutch. Since that is a lot of energy and the clutch cannot dissipate it well, it gets damn hot fast.



Agreed but who would think a brand new saw would have clutch slippage? I wonder if say at the dealers they took the saw, brand new in a box and fuelled it up and fired it up for a bit and it started to smoke just like the OP's did how would they explain it to stihl? I dunno and we prolly will never know what caused it.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 28, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Agreed but who would think a brand new saw would have clutch slippage? I wonder if say at the dealers they took the saw, brand new in a box and fuelled it up and fired it up for a bit and it started to smoke just like the OP's did how would they explain it to stihl? I dunno and we prolly will never know what caused it.


Yeah, but it's a clutch on the output of an engine, and with a brake band on it too - it is impossible that the designers didn't understand the high likelihood of it getting very hot. No conscientious engineer should have signed off on that.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Yeah, but it's a clutch on the output of an engine, and with a brake band on it too - it is impossible that the designers didn't understand the high likelihood of it getting very hot. No conscientious engineer should have signed off on that.


I have only had one saw in 40 years of treework do that, it was an 036 quick stop.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

What I think... Just my opinion. 

Clutch slipped for whatever reason, lead to heat which destroyed the clutch drum bearing. The clutch from wobbled which lead to poor contact between the clutch pads and the drum, which lead to more slippage and heat, drum wobbled enough to contact the brake band, generating more heat.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> What I think... Just my opinion.
> 
> Clutch slipped for whatever reason, lead to heat which destroyed the clutch drum bearing. The clutch from wobbled which lead to poor contact between the clutch pads and the drum, which lead to more slippage and heat, drum wobbled enough to contact the brake band, generating more heat.


That would have to be tested.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> What I think... Just my opinion.
> 
> Clutch slipped for whatever reason, lead to heat which destroyed the clutch drum bearing. The clutch from wobbled which lead to poor contact between the clutch pads and the drum, which lead to more slippage and heat, drum wobbled enough to contact the brake band, generating more heat.



I agree.


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## sunfish (Jan 28, 2015)

Stephen C. said:


> You may want to ask your dad if he would rather have a better quality used saw.


Now that is some of the best advice written here!


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Just got off the phone, Stihl says no go. He said that the grooving around the clutch drum was too obvious to be anything else. He said if there was clutch slippage then the bearing would have fallen apart and you would have seen a lot more damage before the plastic melted. I have to take him at his word there because he has seen far more of these situations than I have. As for how many burned out 291s he's seen, I didn't ask, but you have to start to wonder, as others have, about the engineering choice of putting plastic in such high heat areas. I guess people really like a lighter saw.

Anyway, worth a try, the suspense is over. Final diagnosis from Stihl - chain brake left on. Lesson learned, even if I don't see it that way. You really have to baby these plastic homeowner saws.


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## Rockjock (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Just got off the phone, Stihl says no go. He said that the grooving around the clutch drum was too obvious to be anything else. He said if there was clutch slippage then the bearing would have fallen apart and you would have seen a lot more damage before the plastic melted. I have to take him at his word there because he has seen far more of these situations than I have. As for how many burned out 291s he's seen, I didn't ask, but you have to start to wonder, as others have, about the engineering choice of putting plastic in such high heat areas. I guess people really like a lighter saw.
> 
> Anyway, worth a try, the suspense is over. Final diagnosis from Stihl - chain brake left on. Lesson learned, even if I don't see it that way. You really have to baby these plastic homeowner saws.



I own or have owned quite a few of these plastic saws, 017, 021,023,024,025 MS 250 even a MS 290 all have not been babied and all owe me nothing because of the work I have gotten out of them. To me this is a case of a bad one getting out. make a list of what you need to make it right and we can go from there.


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## jughead500 (Jan 28, 2015)

If you don't get it fixed look into parting it out.may be a loss but im sure youll make enough to buy a good used saw.


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## sunfish (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> but you have to start to wonder, as others have, about the engineering choice of putting plastic in such high heat areas. I guess people really like a lighter saw.


This type of construction actually makes a heavier & bulkier saw.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Just got off the phone, Stihl says no go. He said that the grooving around the clutch drum was too obvious to be anything else. He said if there was clutch slippage then the bearing would have fallen apart and you would have seen a lot more damage before the plastic melted. I have to take him at his word there because he has seen far more of these situations than I have. As for how many burned out 291s he's seen, I didn't ask, but you have to start to wonder, as others have, about the engineering choice of putting plastic in such high heat areas. I guess people really like a lighter saw.
> 
> Anyway, worth a try, the suspense is over. Final diagnosis from Stihl - chain brake left on. Lesson learned, even if I don't see it that way. You really have to baby these plastic homeowner saws.



The blue clutch said it all, in your very first post. I also told you what was up in my very first post. 

There is nothing wrong with this series of saws! They are in fact very durable, well made saws for what they are, and we don't need a thousand posts to discuss this fact.

Nevertheless it's been fun gentleman.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The blue clutch said it all, in your very first post. I also told you what was up in my very first post.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this series of saws! They are in fact very durable, well made saws for what they are, and we don't need a thousand posts to discuss this fact.
> 
> Nevertheless it's been fun gentleman.



Nothing like someone just itching to say "i told you so". I'm glad everyone had fun. I'll draw my own conclusions about the saw, thank you.


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## opinion (Jan 28, 2015)

Now go visit TK power and get a Husqvarna.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Nothing like someone just itching to say "i told you so". I'm glad everyone had fun. I'll draw my own conclusions about the saw, thank you.


So just fix it now as cheap as possible.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> So just fix it now as cheap as possible.



I plan on it, but I've got a bunch of other projects that need to get started when the weather clears. Tree work is only a small portion of our business. Saw will have to sit on the bench for a few weeks.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 28, 2015)

Jed1124 said:


> i see nips...... YOUR BOONED! S S will be here soon young man!


Yeah, I'm here, Much as like the girly pics, and I do like the girly pics. The threatening post need to stop. That won't be tolerated. Now back to the topic and girlie pics, clean ones of course.


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## pro94lt (Jan 28, 2015)

041 were you drinking while it burned up?


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## lmbrman (Jan 28, 2015)

gotta love the plastic saws, esp the girlie pics


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## Rockjock (Jan 28, 2015)

lmbrman said:


> gotta love the plastic girls esp the saw pics



Hmmmm explains a lot it does


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## Chris-PA (Jan 28, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Hmmmm explains a lot it does


You are confused - this is a thread about girly saws. You can tell by the pink and white color scheme.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> You are confused - this is a thread about girly saws.


Hot girly saws smoking hot ones


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## Knobby57 (Jan 28, 2015)

The brake band is only touched on the top . If the brake was engaged it would be clean all the way around . That clutch was a slipping !! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pro94lt (Jan 28, 2015)

All I've seen from all the pictures in this thread were heartache and TROUBLE...


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## Chris-PA (Jan 28, 2015)

And here I was hoping to see more pictures of burned up plastic Stihls.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

Yeah, I don't know how you the clutch drum could spin with the brake on to make the groove. I have a strong ms311 in my garage and it won't move the drum with the brake on and if the drum is spinning it stops instantly at WOT...and the brake is pretty hair trigger so I don't see how it could be a partially engaged brake unless the spring was weak or something.

Could oil or water on the outer surface of the drum allow it to spin with brake on?


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Yeah, I don't know how you the clutch drum could spin with the brake on to make the groove. I have a strong ms311 in my garage and it won't move the drum with the brake on and if the drum is spinning it stops instantly at WOT...and the brake is pretty hair trigger so I don't see how it could be a partially engaged brake unless the spring was weak or something.
> 
> Could oil or water on the outer surface of the drum allow it to spin with brake on?



I appreciate when posters like you try to think outside the box and come up with different scenarios. The guy from Stihl absolutely would not back down from his stance about the chain brake being on. But as I said before, he has seen a lot more of them than I have, and some of the more experienced on here seem convinced of the chain brake/operator error scenario as well.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

What temp would a silicone saw melt at?


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## jughead500 (Jan 28, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you get anything done??? Except uh.....well...... You know.


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## opinion (Jan 28, 2015)

That chick looks ill. Get her some food.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> What temp would a silicone saw melt at?


932 degrees.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 28, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Do you get anything done??? Except uh.....well...... You know.


 I work 70 hours a week so when I get out it's fun . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HuskStihl (Jan 28, 2015)

I really don't think the brake was on. If u'r used to a more rugged saw and robust clutch, u'r cutting style may have caused clutch slippage.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I really don't think the brake was on. If u'r used to a more rugged saw and robust clutch, u'r cutting style may have caused clutch slippage.



Yeah, I'm at a loss. The people in the "brake was on" camp seem to be thoroughly convinced of this fact. It was a frustrating conversation with the Stihl rep, but I wasn't a ***** about it either. He said, paraphrasing, "sorry, but you can't say anything that is going to change the decision. all evidence points to the chain brake being left on during operation. wish i could give you better news". AKA the decision has been made.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Looks as though we need do do some tests and find out for sure.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, I understand where the Stihl guys are coming from. I'm sure idiots do dumb s--- and lie to them all the time. Just not in this instance. It's frustrating because it feels like most people in this thread think I am a Kete.


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## stihl sawing (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok Knobby, that last pic was too much.


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## jughead500 (Jan 28, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Ok Knobby, that last pic was too much.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

Hey, he got all three on the ground! Almost died, but they're on the ground.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh man and I thought it was artistic [emoji37]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

Weesa20 said:


> Hey, he got all three on the ground! Almost died, but they're on the ground.


The almost died is your first clue.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kete = Brush Ape?


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## stihl sawing (Jan 28, 2015)

Knobby57 said:


> Oh man and I thought it was artistic [emoji37]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well it would have been in a PM.lol


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Kete's great! three cuts, three barber chairs. go steelers!


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## Weesa20 (Jan 28, 2015)

I think that might be a record actually...1:1 barber chair to cut ratio and still alive.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Yeah, I'm at a loss. The people in the "brake was on" camp seem to be thoroughly convinced of this fact. It was a frustrating conversation with the Stihl rep, but I wasn't a ***** about it either. He said, paraphrasing, "sorry, but you can't say anything that is going to change the decision. all evidence points to the chain brake being left on during operation. wish i could give you better news". AKA the decision has been made.



It doesn't matter if the brake caused the clutch to slip, or you bogging the saw down and making the clutch slip. The end result is the same. 

Now quit posting my tree felling videos!!


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## superwd6 (Jan 28, 2015)

Stihl should give you another saw and be happy the crappy chain brake that doesn't work properly did this instead of cutting your thoat from a kick back! I would take that thing to a Husqvarna dealer and see if he'll give you $50 off a nice 555 metal case saw with outboard clutch. It would be a great sales tool for him!


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> It doesn't matter if the brake caused the clutch to slip, or you bogging the saw down and making the clutch slip. The end result is the same.
> 
> Now quit posting my tree felling videos!!



Well the end result may be the same but it would be more likely to be a covered repair if they would believe that it was not the chain brake. Because when you eliminate the chain brake it opens up all sorts of different scenarios, some of which were operator error and some of which were not. I find it insulting that you are hell bent on being determined this is operator error. I can't wait until this happens to you and you try to explain your way out of it while 20 people on a forum who don't know you say you're an idiot. See how fun it is.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Well the end result may be the same but it would be more likely to be a covered repair if they would believe that it was not the chain brake. Because when you eliminate the chain brake it opens up all sorts of different scenarios, some of which were operator error and some of which were not. I find it insulting that you are hell bent on being determined this is operator error. I can't wait until this happens to you and you try to explain your way out of it while 20 people on a forum who don't know you say you're an idiot. See how fun it is.


He happens to know quite a bit about saws there so it ain't going to happen so easily.


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## huskihl (Jan 28, 2015)

I know the saw only had an hour or so on it. Maybe the guy before you fired it up on high idle with the brake engaged and it didn't do noticeable damage. No accusations. Just pondering the "what if's"


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

Hey just got back to this thread and read all the different opinions. There is something odd about the set up with a composite body if it melts it with a new saw . If you have the chain break on with an newer 290 or 291 it will not slip it does not have the power it will load up and die out . I'm thinking that you may need a lighter spring on the clutch assembly to keep the clutch engage in a lower RPM that would stop the clutch from making to much slip and heating up the clutch drum. My personal opinion I think the composite bodies are a bad design .nothing should be so easily melted next to a clutch assembly.


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

And it does make for a harder repair because there is an oiler nipple on your upper right on the housing body that once it gets hot it melts or becomes very
Brittle and brakes off . Also I think is a design flaw.


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> He happens to know quite a bit about saws there so it ain't going to happen so easily.



Oh he knows a lot about saws? I couldn't tell because of his modest and unassuming tone in every post.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Oh he knows a lot about saws? I couldn't tell because of his modest and unassuming tone in every post.


Yes he does actually. I don't think he was that offensive to you . You got some attitude actually.


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## huskihl (Jan 28, 2015)

What's the black stuff between the outer casing and the brake band? It doesn't look like the entire brake band is all shined up like it would be if it was engaged. Maybe the black stuff built up and was pushing the band into the clutch. Explains the shiny spot on the clutch but not the band


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

lone wolf said:


> Yes he does actually. I don't think he was that offensive to you . You got some attitude actually.



I have to have an attitude with the amount of crap that's constantly getting heaped on me.


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> I have to have an attitude with the amount of crap that's constantly getting heaped on me.


I know I see that too. I ain't your enemy .


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## west041 (Jan 28, 2015)

Cool. All I'm saying is, I can put up with people telling me I bogged the saw in deep wood, or some other theory. But telling me I left the chain brake on is kind of ridiculous, or saying that it doesn't matter because the end result is the same, as Andyshine did. The reason does matter to me, because a chain brake mistake like that is unforgiveable IMO. did you watch Doug's video in the other thread? You'd have to be a complete moron to run a saw that hard with the brake on, even with it completely buried in a tree. It just goes against everything I was taught and it insults me for people to suspect that I did it.

Also, Doug just barely started the smoking after 7-10 seconds with the brake on. You'd have to run it for another 7-10 seconds to do what I did to the saw. Revving the engine while having the chain stationary for even 2-3 seconds would be a huge oversight in my book. 

Bottom line is that I should have noticed the smoke well before I did. In that moment I erred. But the cause still matters to me.


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

Reeeelax lolol
It's only a plastic saw that ur getting work up on. There mistake. Not yours lolol here... Drink a cold one lolol I am lolol


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## lone wolf (Jan 28, 2015)

west041 said:


> Cool. All I'm saying is, I can put up with people telling me I bogged the saw in deep wood, or some other theory. But telling me I left the chain brake on is kind of ridiculous, or saying that it doesn't matter because the end result is the same, as Andyshine did. The reason does matter to me, because a chain brake mistake like that is unforgiveable IMO. did you watch Doug's video in the other thread? You'd have to be a complete moron to run a saw that hard with the brake on, even with it completely buried in a tree. It just goes against everything I was taught and it insults me for people to suspect that I did it.
> 
> Also, Doug just barely started the smoking after 7-10 seconds with the brake on. You'd have to run it for another 7-10 seconds to do what I did to the saw. Revving the engine while having the chain stationary for even 2-3 seconds would be a huge oversight in my book.
> 
> Bottom line is that I should have noticed the smoke well before I did. In that moment I erred. But the cause still matters to me.


So make a parts list.


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

Yah.... First in the list 
Get an 036 or 360 lol
Much better saws


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 28, 2015)

Brianlol said:


> I'm thinking that you may need a lighter spring on the clutch assembly to keep the clutch engage in a lower RPM that would stop the clutch from making to much slip and heating up the clutch drum. My personal opinion I think the composite bodies are a bad design .nothing should be so easily melted next to a clutch assembly.



If the clutch engaged at a lower rpm the chain would be spinning at idle, and turning down the idle too far would stall the engine. 

041 take it easy man, I'm not so bad once you get to know me.


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## huskihl (Jan 28, 2015)

Brianlol said:


> Yah.... First in the list
> Get an 036 or 360 lol
> Much better saws


Or an 044 440 441 046 460 461 064 066 660 372xp 385xp 390xp 576.................. they're all better saws. But it doesn't fix his problem. Maybe stihl should just drop every model below a 362 and we'd never have to buy parts again. Smfh


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

True true ... U would have to lower the idle to a sweet spot but like I said why is this happening ? U can't just assume the chain brake is the colprat . I've had guys give me composite saws with there hands on there head telling me It just burned up with out any reason. I've bought housings on feebay to repair them but I was unsure why it happened. It worked great after I was done but would it do it again..... Who knows lolol


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## Brianlol (Jan 28, 2015)

U know to drop the home owner smaller saw wouldn't be a bad idea


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 29, 2015)

Some people don't even know what the chain brake is, or what it does. Every owners manual says set the chain brake when starting the saw, now add in the fact modern saw are set to high idle automatically when you engage the choke. When people start the saw, they have no idea that the high idle is normal or not. Some figure it out before it's too late, some don't.


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## CR888 (Jan 29, 2015)

west041 said:


> Cool. All I'm saying is, I can put up with people telling me I bogged the saw in deep wood, or some other theory. But telling me I left the chain brake on is kind of ridiculous, or saying that it doesn't matter because the end result is the same, as Andyshine did. The reason does matter to me, because a chain brake mistake like that is unforgiveable IMO. did you watch Doug's video in the other thread? You'd have to be a complete moron to run a saw that hard with the brake on, even with it completely buried in a tree. It just goes against everything I was taught and it insults me for people to suspect that I did it.
> 
> Also, Doug just barely started the smoking after 7-10 seconds with the brake on. You'd have to run it for another 7-10 seconds to do what I did to the saw. Revving the engine while having the chain stationary for even 2-3 seconds would be a huge oversight in my book.
> 
> Bottom line is that I should have noticed the smoke well before I did. In that moment I erred. But the cause still matters to me.


What you did was press the brake handle a wot while cutting, that's all. Not fully engage the brake by locking it forward but merely apply some pressure on it while cutting and when saws operate at 8-10k rpm it don't take much to generate too much heat. You need to read this so you are contious of this and don't repeat the mistake. l consider myself experience with saws and l have done this while trying too cut stumps low to the ground, however without the results you got. I cannot believe after 19 pages nobody has considers this, its not that hard to work out what happened.


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## Rockjock (Jan 29, 2015)

CR888 said:


> What you did was press the brake handle a wot while cutting, that's all. Not fully engage the brake by locking it forward but merely apply some pressure on it while cutting and when saws operate at 8-10k rpm it don't take much to generate too much heat. You need to read this so you are contious of this and don't repeat the mistake. l consider myself experience with saws and l have done this while trying too cut stumps low to the ground, however without the results you got. I cannot believe after 19 pages nobody has considers this, its not that hard to work out what happened.



Interesting idea but not viable. Go to your saw without running it and move the chain by hand and then apply some pressure to the chain brake. No resistance at all. It is like a mouse trap trigger. it is off or it is on. There is no in-between.


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## sunfish (Jan 29, 2015)

My wife likes beards.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/8KnGuC4lOEQ


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## west041 (Jan 29, 2015)

Rockjock said:


> Interesting idea but not viable. Go to your saw without running it and move the chain by hand and then apply some pressure to the chain brake. No resistance at all. It is like a mouse trap trigger. it is off or it is on. There is no in-between.



Agreed. I thought this was possible until I did the same test today with a 271. It's definitely an on/off situation.


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## Brianlol (Jan 29, 2015)

sunfish said:


> My wife likes beards.
> https://www.youtube.com/embed/8KnGuC4lOEQ


Now I'm going to grow my bread lolol


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## Section VIII (Jan 30, 2015)

Both of my saws will make it obvious when I forget to turn off the chain brake...by not moving the chain. I even accidentally bumped the chain brake on when I was bucking and I knew immediately when the brake engaged.

Just sayin'.....


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## west041 (Jan 30, 2015)

Section VIII said:


> Both of my saws will make it obvious when I forget to turn off the chain brake...by not moving the chain. I even accidentally bumped the chain brake on when I was bucking and I knew immediately when the brake engaged.
> 
> Just sayin'.....



Yep, my sentiments exactly. Too bad Stihl didn't agree with me.


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## Brianlol (Jan 31, 2015)

Because that would cost them money!!!!! The more saw that they can make that need to be replaced is good for them . That's the only reason for the composite bodies- low cost for them and expendable.


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## LegDeLimber (Jan 31, 2015)

I'll leave it to you guys to continue debating how it happened.

But take a look at the clutch drum/shell, the darkest heat discoloration has two distinct regions.
looks to me like the shoes spinning against the outer portion, heated it and the heat/discoloration traveled inwards to the middle.
Now look at the clutch shoes and center hub/spider.
The entire assembly is severely cooked and the heat had traveled from it, through the crankshaft
then across the clutch bearing and into the center area of the clutch drum.
Take note of how the center region and spur/sprocket have also been discolored.
Seeing as the hub is on the inside of the drum, that would explain the drum being a bit darker in there vs the exterior surface, in that region, about mid way
out from center.


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## tree monkey (Jan 31, 2015)




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## Brianlol (Feb 3, 2015)

Just wondering how ur making out with ur rebuild?


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## west041 (Feb 4, 2015)

Too busy at the moment to take it on. My father went out and bought another saw and he already has a 271 so we don't need this one anytime soon.


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## c5rulz (Feb 4, 2015)

west041 said:


> Too busy at the moment to take it on. My father went out and bought another saw and he already has a 271 so we don't need this one anytime soon.



Wow, doubling down on fail, 291 to a 271.


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## Tyrel (Feb 4, 2015)

c5rulz said:


> Wow, doubling down on fail, 291 to a 271.


I have a 271. It's a great saw. Really good for milling. Pulls a 32 inch bar no problem.


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## c5rulz (Feb 5, 2015)

Tyrel said:


> I have a 271. It's a great saw. Really good for milling. Pulls a 32 inch bar no problem.




My bad. I forgot about the MS271 applications for milling, especially when pulling a 32" bar.


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## west041 (Jan 7, 2016)

Hey guys,
I finally got around to looking at this saw. I've uploaded some pictures. Let me know what you think. So far I know these part were melted and need replacing:
-sprocket/needle bearing 9512 933 2260
-worm gear 1133 640 7100
-oil pump 1141 640 3203
-brake band 1141 160 5400
- I'm guessing that the heat ruined the springs in the clutch and I need a new clutch - 1121 160 2051

I might also need to replace both oil seals but I'm not sure. The heat blueing/discoloration on the crankshaft basically looks like it ends 3/8" out from the seal but that doesn't mean the seal isn't ruined. The other question is do I need a new sprocket? There is just some melted burnt residue on the inside of the sprocket drum that I can probably clean up, but I'm worried that it may have warped due to heat. Here are some pictures:







I'm hoping I dodged a bullet on the engine case. If it needs a new engine case I'm parting it out and putting the money towards a used 260.

If I can fix it and get it going, the warranty is already f'd so I'd like to pull the limiter caps on the carb and drill some holes in the muffler...hope I can get some of your help with that too.

Hope I can have a better time the second time around on A.S. Please don't use the resurrection of this thread as an excuse to do some more bashing on me and my plastic homeowner grade saw. I'm just trying to turn this thing back into a runner.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2016)

In my opinion that case looks pretty bad. A possibility would be to get a used or aftermarket case for it. I don't see them costing that much on ebay.


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## VinceGU05 (Jan 8, 2016)

bang those parts in and see what happens/doesnt work properly still due to melted plastic. i an sure that will run again.


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## pioneer saws (Jan 8, 2016)

VinceGU05 said:


> bang those parts in and see what happens/doesnt work properly still due to melted plastic. i an sure that will run again.



Yep, ive been running a 039 like that for 8yrs now, i got the saw from my work after it was run with the chainbrake engaged, it was written off by the local stihl shop due to the cost of a new plastic case. Its been a good saw, just looks a bit ugly where it melted.


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## wde_1978 (Jan 8, 2016)

Nitroman said:


> Yikes. My first post on this thread, I was dubious that could happen, in that the saw would still turn the chain over. I was wrong. My 394 and 3120 won't move the chain at all when the brake is on.


Same goes for my Sachs-Dolmar 105 & 108, and my Dolmar PS-6400 & PS-7900!
Chain brake engages, chain stops moving almost instantly, engine bogs down terribly impossible not to notice!

It seems as if Stihl didn't do proper testing and ended up manufacturing saws that will:
- allow the chain to move even when the chain brake is engaged (insufficient chain brake pressure)
- allow too much clutch slip (weak clutch, too lightly designed clutch weights, too much gap between clutch drum and clutch weights)
- allow the plastic case to melt when exposed to excessive heat (it's an internal combustion engine driven tool featuring a friction clutch, it must be able to withstand a fair amount of heat and then some)

*I generally have nothing against Stihl nor any other saw brands*, it is just disappointing to read things like this considering that a generic Chinese supermarket saw will do as well or better at a fraction of the price tag, while one still gets a 3 Year warranty.

FYI:
I stopped reading through this thread after the third page (couldn't read any further).
I don't mean to stir the pot nor step on anybody's toes.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2016)

It appears that the saw was melted around where the chain brake mounts, if so you'd probably have to run it without the brake. I guess that's okay since many saws were made without one, I have several of them here. I've never actually had occasion to use a chain brake because even at a time when my saw kicked back the brake didn't stop the chain anyway.


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## c5rulz (Jan 8, 2016)

a. palmer jr. said:


> It appears that the saw was melted around where the chain brake mounts, if so you'd probably have to run it without the brake. I guess that's okay since many saws were made without one, I have several of them here. I've never actually had occasion to use a chain brake because even at a time when my saw kicked back the brake didn't stop the chain anyway.




Well ya get all kinds of advice on the internet.

"Chain brake, we don't need no stinkin chain brake".


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2016)

I wasn't exactly saying I preferred no chain brake, it just looks like the brake band won't go in there because of all the melting. Some people run chain brakes and some don't. My saws that I use have them and they are in working order. I just haven't had occasion to use one, that's all..


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## west041 (Jan 8, 2016)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I wasn't exactly saying I preferred no chain brake, it just looks like the brake band won't go in there because of all the melting. Some people run chain brakes and some don't. My saws that I use have them and they are in working order. I just haven't had occasion to use one, that's all..



I just unscrewed and pulled the brake band out prior to taking the picture, came out fairly easy. I'm quite confident a new one will fit right in and function fine.

I've never felt a terrible need to have a chain brake on any of my saws so I don't care that much. I do find it handy to be able to lock down the brake when moving through thick underbrush/limbing up, so if I fell I wouldn't accidently hit the trigger and have an accident.


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## Weesa20 (Jan 8, 2016)

I have lots of 291 parts from a seized saw . Let me what you need and I'll price it out.


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## Franny K (Jan 8, 2016)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Maybe the saw makers should put a warning light on the top of the saw to let you know that the brake is on while running.


The battery electric Husqvana saw has a little red light that flashes. It also interrupts the circuit.


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## west041 (Jan 8, 2016)

Is everyone in agreement that the clutch springs probably got cooked and the clutch needs replacement? I've never cooked a clutch before so I don't know.


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## west041 (Jan 8, 2016)

Weesa20 said:


> I have lots of 291 parts from a seized saw . Let me what you need and I'll price it out.



Thanks a lot for the offer!

In my earlier post, I mentioned what I am looking for:

-sprocket/needle bearing 9512 933 2260
-worm gear 1133 640 7100
-oil pump 1141 640 3203
-brake band 1141 160 5400
- clutch 1121 160 2051

PM me if you're interested in parting it out.


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## west041 (Jan 9, 2016)

Again, if anyone can point me in the right direction as to whether I need a new clutch and sprocket based on the pics on page 19 that would be great. Just trying to start with the bare essentials right now. Also if anyone has the 291 parts I need, I'm available on this thread and PM.


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## west041 (Jan 30, 2016)

Update - I found a bunch of lightly used OEM clutch/brake parts on Ebay and slapped them in. I left the oil seals in the clutch end and was able to reuse the oiler hose. Put an older b&c on and tested it out in some cedar. 



I even popped the chain brake on at the end to show that I know how to use it. 

The 291 won't win any competitions but it should be a reliable runner. We are going to give it to my brother who just bought a house with some property. Total cost of repair was $45. A lot better than $550! Thanks to all who encouraged me to fix it and to those on the thread who gave advice. I consider this a good learning experience and hope there are no hard feelings to those on here that I butted heads with.


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## 67L36Driver (Jan 30, 2016)

west041 said:


> Is everyone in agreement that the clutch springs probably got cooked and the clutch needs replacement? I've never cooked a clutch before so I don't know.


Yup, may be annealed and lost a lot of tension. Three spring for less than five bux at my local dealer.


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## alderman (Jan 30, 2016)

I think the dealer ought to cover it if the manufacturer won't. He's the one who sold the saw.


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## west041 (Jan 30, 2016)

67L36Driver said:


> Yup, may be annealed and lost a lot of tension. Three spring for less than five bux at my local dealer.



I didn't know you could replace just the springs. I put a slightly used clutch in off a straight gassed 291.


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## west041 (Jan 30, 2016)

alderman said:


> I think the dealer ought to cover it if the manufacturer won't. He's the one who sold the saw.



This was debated several pages back. Many commentators felt that the cooked clutch/plastic on the saw was due to operator error from either:
1. running the saw with the chain brake on
2. over revving while buried in wood with chain either stopped or moving too slow
3. cutting with dull chain

Personally I can rule out #'s 1 and 3 but I can't rule out #2. It is possible that it happened, since the saw was new to me and I was previously used to low end torquey saws such as the 041 and 038 mag.

I'm fine with whatever people want to believe. The saw is now fixed and lesson learned.


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## Brettl (Jan 30, 2016)

Glad it worked out for you. Lot of good people here, I'm glad you weren't discouraged by those you butted heads with. 

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk


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## west041 (Jan 30, 2016)

Brettl said:


> Glad it worked out for you. Lot of good people here, I'm glad you weren't discouraged by those you butted heads with.
> 
> Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk



I came in with the attitude that I did nothing wrong and had nothing to learn, so I blame myself for becoming confrontational when faced with constructive criticism. Some of the comments towards me were more rude than others, but you have to have a little bit of thick skin when conversing online. No hard feelings on my end. 

There are lots of great people here I've met already since returning to the forum, and I've gotten tons of help with my recent 026 problems. Happy to be part of the forum.


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## 67L36Driver (Jan 30, 2016)

Yup, we do rude here![emoji6]


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## Full Chisel (Jan 30, 2016)

Glad you got everything straightened out. Turned out to be a good learning experience!


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 30, 2016)

I've had three MS290 saws now that have had weak clutch springs, chain turns even while at slow idle. Maybe they got hot and lost their temper or something. I usually just order a clutch. I have one ordered now, actually. I do think I'll check with my Stihl dealer and see what he charges for the springs.


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## 67L36Driver (Jan 31, 2016)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I've had three MS290 saws now that have had weak clutch springs, chain turns even while at slow idle. Maybe they got hot and lost their temper or something. I usually just order a clutch. I have one ordered now, actually. I do think I'll check with my Stihl dealer and see what he charges for the springs.


Three springs are much cheaper.

Changing them out is a trick performed with a chain nose pliers and an ice pick.


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## Fubar (Jan 31, 2016)

west041 said:


> This was debated several pages back. Many commentators felt that the cooked clutch/plastic on the saw was due to operator error from either:
> 1. running the saw with the chain brake on
> 2. over revving while buried in wood with chain either stopped or moving too slow
> 3. cutting with dull chain
> ...


here is a 4 th one , i was cutting some extra sappy pine a few weeks ago ,and it was cold as [email protected] outside , the sap gummed up in the bar on my husky 440 and locked it down , now if you was cutting sappy wood could it be a possibility that sap gum could of caused the extra drag ?


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

Personally I would invest my money in another brand! You can get brand new pro saws (mag. housing, etc.) easily for the price of the Stihl plastic line! Any Dolmar 5105, 6100, Husqvarna 545, 555, Echo 590, etc. is a MUCH better buy than plastic fan


Andyshine77 said:


> ...041 take it easy man, I'm not so bad once you get to know me.


Yeah we all know your are much worse...















7


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Personally I would invest my money in another brand! You can get brand new pro saws (mag. housing, etc.) easily for the price of the Stihl plastic line! Any Dolmar 5105, 6100, Husqvarna 545, 555, Echo 590, etc. is a MUCH better buy than plastic fan
> 
> 
> 7



This was my dads saw. We bought it not knowing a whole lot about the differences between homeowner grade and pro grade. I'd take a used Pro saw any day over a new 291. 

The abundance of plastic located in proximity to the clutch is a design flaw, in my opinion. However, I realize that Stihl has price and weight considerations to take in to account.


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

Also, anyone running these 291s should know that they have the worst oil delivery rate out of any saw I've ever run. And a non-adjustable oiler.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

west041 said:


> This was my dads saw. We bought it not knowing a whole lot about the differences between homeowner grade and pro grade. I'd take a used Pro saw any day over a new 291.
> 
> The abundance of plastic located in proximity to the clutch is a design flaw, in my opinion. However, I realize that Stihl has price and weight considerations to take in to account.


I understood that this is your dads saw. Still I would seriously consider selling it since it is working again and buy something else. F.e. a Echo 590 can be bought for around 400$ and is a slightly detuned pro saw! After correct carb tuning it is a much better saw than the 291 could ever wish it could be. Other examples were mentioned by me above that would be equivalent or MUCH better choices than what you have in hand. And let us not forget Stihl stuff always get's premium prices on the used market.

7


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

I appreciate the advise, and agree with you. However, if I sold it I'd have to disclose the melted engine case around the clutch. That fact alone would discourage most buyers and I doubt I'd ever get more than $100-$120 out of it locally. I feel it will be a good runner for my brother's property. He doesn't burn wood so it will be just for storm cleanup and thinning. He doesn't need a performance saw, and this one has a mint piston and cylinder with zero run time on it so it should last him many years with proper care.


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## uglydukwling (Jan 31, 2016)

So which are the plastic saws? Everything in the "saws for farming and landscaping" section? Are all the saws in the "saws for forestry" section metal?

I ask because I'm in the market for a replacement for my old 038 and this thread has given me one more thing to worry about.

Since I gave up heating with wood the new saw will be mainly used for cleaning up storm damage, so I thought about going down a size or 2 to get something lighter and more compact, but I don't want to go down in quality. The dealer suggested a 251, but I have most of a spool of 3/8" chain I bought for the 038, and I'd kind of like to be able to use it up. The dealer said the smallest saw that uses 3/8" chain is a 391. Now I'm wondering if I have to go still bigger to get a decent saw. I see the 391 is listed with the "saws for farm and landscaping", the same as the 291.

What are the equivalents in Husquvarna or Echo?

If Stihl is making disposable saws now, maybe I should just buy the cheapest thing I can find. If it's going to wear out before it needs a replacement chain, I don't have to worry about what chain I have in stock.


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

uglydukwling said:


> So which are the plastic saws? Everything in the "saws for farming and landscaping" section? Are all the saws in the "saws for forestry" section metal?
> 
> I ask because I'm in the market for a replacement for my old 038 and this thread has given me one more thing to worry about.
> 
> ...




I didn't mean to make the implication that Stihl is making disposable saws. I was just pointing out the limitations of the 291 oiler as well as what I would consider a poorly designed clutch that does not stand up to abuse as well as the older Stihls do. 

I think if you are buying a new saw you will find many happy owners of Stihl 261 and 361/362, as well as equivalent Husqvarna models. You will also find folks like me who prefer some of the simpler models from the 80's such as the 024, 026, 028, 044 and 038 magnums. I would advise you to do a search of the site or a custom google search. For example, if you are looking for reviews and comparisons of the MS391, you could google "MS391 site:arboristsite.com". This will limit results to only Arboristsite.com. 

You would get better answers from more experienced users than myself by starting a thread of your own detailing what kind of money you want to spend and what your needs are. 

If I were you I would take the money you were thinking of putting towards a 391 and buy a lightly used 260/360/361 or 044 off the classifieds. Or an equivalent Husqvarna saw. There are lots of Husqvarna users on this site who can make a recommendation to you. Good luck!


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

uglydukwling said:


> So which are the plastic saws? Everything in the "saws for farming and landscaping" section? Are all the saws in the "saws for forestry" section metal? YES!



_*I ask because I'm in the market for a replacement for my old 038 and this thread has given me one more thing to worry about.

Since I gave up heating with wood the new saw will be mainly used for cleaning up storm damage, so I thought about going down a size or 2 to get something lighter and more compact, but I don't want to go down in quality. The dealer suggested a 251, but I have most of a spool of 3/8" chain I bought for the 038, and I'd kind of like to be able to use it up. The dealer said the smallest saw that uses 3/8" chain is a 391. Now I'm wondering if I have to go still bigger to get a decent saw. I see the 391 is listed with the "saws for farm and landscaping", the same as the 291. *_
Of course you can use regular 3/8 on smaller saws, but drawback is that your bar will have to be VERY short to make it run comfortable... 

_*What are the equivalents in Husquvarna or Echo? *_What I would recomend has already been mentioned above. Just alphabetically Dolmar 500/ 5105, Echo 490/590, Husqvarna 545 / 555, etc. There are MANY better choices out there than Stihl "farm & landscaping" saws. But that doesn't mean the saws are bad at all, I just prefer having the most for my money! Others can have the Name.

If you are thinking about a saw in the 251 class, forget the Stihl and buy a Dolmar 421! The pendant from Dolmar against the Stihl 241 for less than half the price!!! Built like a pro saw, made for the ambitious homeowner! Quite a few guys use them in a professional setting and have put hundreds of refills, without a problem through them! And YES it is that good! 

_*If Stihl is making disposable saws now, maybe I should just buy the cheapest thing I can find. If it's going to wear out before it needs a replacement chain, I don't have to worry about what chain I have in stock.*_
That is not true! Many have and will cut more wood than you can imagine with the "disposable" saws. With proper care and maintenance they will probably last a few life times for someone in your situation.

7


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

Good advice above, on Dolmar you will want to make sure there is a reputable dealer who can work on them within driving distance or make sure you are equipped to work on them yourself.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

west041 said:


> Good advice above, on Dolmar you will want to make sure there is a reputable dealer who can work on them within driving distance or make sure you are equipped to work on them yourself.


This constant "dealer close by" phobia is really quite annoying! Sorry westo41 but this is simply not realistic! Any mom and pop shop should be able to dial in the carb and what else will happen with a brand new saw? Typically joe shmo buys a saw and simply runs it till it dies a decade later, in the mean time he has used up a few dozen chains and bars, that't it. He never cared about carb adjustments, perfect filing angle, exact fuel mixture rate, etc. But wondersomely it survied! 

Why did it do that? 
Because classic chainsaw's are about as technically simple as it can get with an engine! 

Who has ever really had a problem with a typical brand new "manual carb" saw? 
About zilch. 

This paranoia is simply annoying!

7


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> This constant "dealer close by" phobia is really quite annoying! Sorry westo41 but this is simply not realistic! Any mom and pop shop should be able to dial in the carb and what else will happen with a brand new saw? Typically joe shmo buys a saw and simply runs it till it dies a decade later, in the mean time he has used up a few dozen chains and bars, that't it. He never cared about carb adjustments, perfect filing angle, exact fuel mixture rate, etc. But wondersomely it survied!
> 
> Why did it do that?
> Because classic chainsaw's are about as technically simple as it can get with an engine!
> ...



Hence the part of the post where I said "or make sure you can work on them yourself".


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

Many people, homeowners especially, value dealer support. If Dolmar cannot provide that then it is their loss.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

west041 said:


> Many people, homeowners especially, value dealer support. If Dolmar cannot provide that then it is their loss.


What are they doing at the dealers place when their saw is running faultlessly?

7


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## west041 (Jan 31, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> What are they doing at the dealers place when their saw is running faultlessly?
> 
> 7



Who cares? I don't care what brand of saw the guy buys. You obviously love Dolmar, great. What works for you may not work for everyone else. Let's move on...


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## 7sleeper (Jan 31, 2016)

Moving...

7


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## KiwiBro (Jan 31, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> What are they doing at the dealers place when their saw is running faultlessly?
> 
> 7


bar oil
chains sharpened
advice
pre mix
time out from domestic duties
trying out/fondling the next purchase
general tune up/service
And yes, even new saws of reputable brands have failures that need warranty repairs.

That said. I have never, and will never, buy a Stihl locally. Probably never a Husqvarna either. Possibly a DCS Makita, Echo or Shindaiwa if the deal is good, but currently not a single saw I own was bought new in NZ.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 31, 2016)

67L36Driver said:


> Three springs are much cheaper.
> 
> Changing them out is a trick performed with a chain nose pliers and an ice pick.


 I ordered a clutch plus later I ordered 6 springs. I work on these 1127 saws a lot and could use the spares. Sure be nice to see a video of the spring swap, might save me some frustration watching them sail across the room..


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't consider the Stihl 1127 models as "disposable saws" , you just have to choose the proper saw for the job. If you don't run a saw all day in heavy wood or run them with the chain brake on I don't see anything wrong with them. If you're a pro logger you'd be silly to use a homeowner type saw unless that's all you can afford. We had some guys bring us some firewood a while ago and I looked in his trailer to see his saws and he had two Wild Things but looked like the guy wasn't exactly rich..


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## uglydukwling (Feb 1, 2016)

Thanks. Quite a few models to check out. Within the distance that I commonly travel for grocery shopping, there are 4 Stihl and one Husquvarna dealer. There doesn't seem to be any point in shopping Stihl dealers for price. Stihl seems to enforce their retail pricing. I don't know about Husquvarna.

Dolmars sold in Canada are re-branded as Makita, so I suppose that makes them a big-box-store saw. I'll have to figure out which models are which. I haven't looked into how Echo is distributed.

I'm reluctant to buy used, since a chain saw is pretty highly stressed and most of them are probably abused by the time they hit the used market. My first saw was a worn out McCollough which taught me all the things that go wrong with used saws. In new saws, I've had good luck with Homelight and various Stihls, terrible luck with Poulan (although I've heard other people praise them.) I've never owned one of the truly disposable saws like wild thing. (do Yardworks sell chainsaws?)

Arthritis is part of the reason I've given up wood heating, so I thought a lighter, more compact saw might be a good idea. If I have to go to a bigger saw to get quality, I suppose I can just cut for shorter sessions. I don't have to have a woodshed full by fall, so there are no more deadlines. In fact, maybe a good saw will let me get as much work done in less time, compared to a "homeowner" saw.


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## jdvsn83 (Feb 1, 2016)

AKDoug said:


> Tre
> 
> Once again, tree sap or brake on, neither are Stihl's fault. They won't honor the warranty because there is nothing to warranty.



Hmmm, I cut 25" sappy trees with my Echo CS-510 and the saw doesn't burn like that...


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## a. palmer jr. (Feb 1, 2016)

uglydukwling said:


> Thanks. Quite a few models to check out. Within the distance that I commonly travel for grocery shopping, there are 4 Stihl and one Husquvarna dealer. There doesn't seem to be any point in shopping Stihl dealers for price. Stihl seems to enforce their retail pricing. I don't know about Husquvarna.
> 
> Dolmars sold in Canada are re-branded as Makita, so I suppose that makes them a big-box-store saw. I'll have to figure out which models are which. I haven't looked into how Echo is distributed.
> 
> ...


 Probably a good saw for you would be a Stihl MS250 or if you're in a hurry, a 346XP Husky.


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## Chainsaw Jim (Feb 1, 2016)

I've mentioned before that these things are running sumbitches. The chain brake can't even stop em. Lol
This model of saw is one of Stihls best selling rancher models and I'll back them 100%. They are very dependable and cut anything you throw them at.
They may have a high number of saws in the dead saw category, but that's due to misuse and lack of proper air filter maintenance. Not to mention many use them for applications where a professional quality model is suggested. The air filter can't keep up with professional type use.


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## uglydukwling (Feb 2, 2016)

I found that Echo is available at Home Depot. 

I just noticed that Princess Auto (sort of equivalent to Harbor Freight) is advertising Poulan saws, model not specified but with a 16" bar, for $100. That puts them firmly in the disposable saw category. Maybe I should just buy a half-dozen of them. Almost cheaper than buying replacement chains for a good saw.


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## d-marr (Feb 2, 2016)

uglydukwling said:


> I found that Echo is available at Home Depot.
> 
> I just noticed that Princess Auto (sort of equivalent to Harbor Freight) is advertising Poulan saws, model not specified but with a 16" bar, for $100. That puts them firmly in the disposable saw category. Maybe I should just buy a half-dozen of them. Almost cheaper than buying replacement chains for a good saw.



Yes you could buy one of these disposable saws, but it would be a totally unsatisfactory cutting experience. I have a problem with this sort of thinking at a personal level. It's the same problem I have with using disposable blade shavers. Just a wasteful use of resources. Besides running a good chainsaw with a well sharpened chain is just a pleasure. At least it is for me, so just, you know, IMHO


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## 7sleeper (Feb 2, 2016)

uglydukwling said:


> I found that Echo is available at Home Depot.
> 
> I just noticed that Princess Auto (sort of equivalent to Harbor Freight) is advertising Poulan saws, model not specified but with a 16" bar, for $100. That puts them firmly in the disposable saw category. Maybe I should just buy a half-dozen of them. Almost cheaper than buying replacement chains for a good saw.


That is typical of the snobby attitude presented here all to often! Even those el cheapo's will last, with according treatment and a knowledgeable user, many many years of homeowner/firewooder use! If it doesn't survive it just proves that the user has NO idea what he is doing with the equipment at hand!

7


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## a. palmer jr. (Feb 2, 2016)

Some of the saws they call disposable have parts on them that can be replaced so should last many years as long as the parts supply holds out. I have a Super 2 that has to be
20-
30 years old and I doubt if any of the parts were on this saw when it was new. I know because I changed most of them.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 6, 2018)

_*7sleeper:
If Stihl is making disposable saws now, maybe I should just buy the cheapest thing I can find. If it's going to wear out before it needs a replacement chain, I don't have to worry about what chain I have in stock.*_
That is not true! Many have and will cut more wood than you can imagine with the "disposable" saws. With proper care and maintenance they will probably last a few life times for someone in your situation.
*Actually, that is true. I have a MS291 with under 100 hrs, and a scorched piston. The saw only saw premixed nonethanol, but I had to go back to a MS290 my father has which he uses regular Ethanol mixed gas with no problems. The dealer and Stihl said because it’s over 3 years they aren’t responsible. So, don’t tell me Stihl cares about its customers when there is evidence that they don’t. Here’s a new name change and slogan for them, “Steal, it’s what we do”*​


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## pro94lt (Jan 6, 2018)

The ole chain brake thread


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

pro94lt said:


> The ole chain brake thread


So did you read all of this?

Just curious.

Looks like "New guy burns up new saw with chain brake on"

Several guys try to get up a Stihl dealer lynch party.

Several other guys make a pitch for their favorite brand/model.

"This saw/brand is a cheap piece of crap" is the general hue of the thread.

The mob got tired and went home.



All along it was just a guy melting his new saw with the chain brake, and wanting to blame someone else...


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> So did you read all of this?
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> ...


From what I read the guys issue was sap. If Stihl wants to charge the prices they do. Then they need to learn to stand by their product. I brought my saw to the dealer several times. Was told it just needed to get broken in. The saw has still not been broken in since the manual states that is 100 hrs. I bring it to another dealer. They say the piston is sortched. I gave Stihl all of the info with all of the dealers contact info (from their own site). After weeks of wasted time they finally said that since I had the saw over 3 years it’s not their fault. I’ve run saws my whole life, and the reason this one didn’t get 100 hrs is I had to use an older MS290 every time since this always had something wrong. Again, Stihl does not stand by their products, and deserves to be called out for that.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Sap?


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

students assist program?


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Sap?



*Jan 25, 2015 comments:
Rockjock:*
_I have seen this before and it looks like the sap did the saw the damage. I agree it is not that bad of a repair. It looks like the sap got into the innards and just became like cement. clean it up really well and then report back._

*west041:*
_Sap seems like a very likely culprit, November was quite mild in Maine and before you get consistent cold temps the spruces are pretty sappy and hard to buck up._

*Rockjock:*
_The sap heats up and the water is " boiled " away and it just become harder, coats the brake band and slowly builds up. gets hotter and then begins to bind things up. a good cleaning, perhaps place the power head in a plastic bag and then place it into the fridge get the nice and cold the sap will break off easier. then make a list of the parts you need. I do not blame Stihl as much as I would blame the dealer. If you identify the problem correctly then you can easily get the issue solved. The dealer is asked what they think happened to the unit, Stihl can only base if the saw is worthrepairing from what they said. A good cleaning will show you pretty quickly if it is indeed melted or just coated insap. From the photos I can see you need a new oiler gear, dunno if the brake band is toast, clutch may need a good tear down and cleaning. If you are very lucky all that would be needed are a few parts and a good cleaning._


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

MaineMikeD said:


> From what I read the guys issue was sap. If Stihl wants to charge the prices they do. Then they need to learn to stand by their product. I brought my saw to the dealer several times. Was told it just needed to get broken in. The saw has still not been broken in since the manual states that is 100 hrs. I bring it to another dealer. They say the piston is sortched. I gave Stihl all of the info with all of the dealers contact info (from their own site). After weeks of wasted time they finally said that since I had the saw over 3 years it’s not their fault. I’ve run saws my whole life, and the reason this one didn’t get 100 hrs is I had to use an older MS290 every time since this always had something wrong. Again, Stihl does not stand by their products, and deserves to be called out for that.


What saw are you talking about, and detail your troubles?


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> What saw are you talking about, and detail your troubles?


This thread was created by west041, and his issues with a MS291.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

What saw were you talking about?


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Or are you the OP under a new name?


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> What saw are you talking about, and detail your troubles?


If you’re wondering about my personal issues it’s probably because it was flagged for moderation support. Not sure why, but here it is:

*MaineMikeD Jan 6, 2018 comment:*
_Actually, that is true. I have a MS291 with under 100 hrs, and a scorched piston. The saw only saw premixed nonethanol, but I had to go back to a MS290 my father has which he uses regular Ethanol mixed gas with no problems. The dealer and Stihl said because it’s over 3 years they aren’t responsible. So, don’t tell me Stihl cares about its customers when there is evidence that they don’t. Here’s a new name change and slogan for them, “Steal, it’s what we do”_


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

No, don't care about any issues or moderators. Just wondering what saw you were talking about.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

You say you brought your new saw to the dealer several times.

What for? They said it just needed broken in? What was the problem?


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Or are you the OP under a new name?


I am definitely not the OP. I used my Facebook account so i’m Not trying to somehow do something scandalous. I’m just pissed my >$400 saw is junk, and Stihl can’t be bothered to care. I could take them to court under Maine’s implied warranty law, but I’d waste time and money. FYI, when you feel like a company actually stole $ from you it kind of gets you upset!


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> You say you brought your new saw to the dealer several times.
> 
> What for? They said it just needed broken in? What was the problem?


Saw wouldn’t start. I would bring it in, and they would screw with it out back, and then bring it out to show me it was working. However, the saw still wouldn’t start right off so they’d screw with it while I was in front of them, and finally get it going. Honestly, I was so pissed I didn’t want to create a scene so I just took off. After that I had my wife drop it off, because I was not going to loose my cool on them. Fast forward, I moved, different dealer tells me the piston is scorched...


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## jr27236 (Jan 7, 2018)

Wow this post originated 1/25/15 and its still running like a heated wild fire! I started reading this and saw a lot of guys with lots of posts under there belts but didnt recognize much of there screen names, but boy did this one stir up into a ***** fight quickly. Sap/ brake or anything other then a mechanical covered failure is on the owner and he should just fix the darn thing and move on. Just my 2cents. Im dizzy


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

P.M. me your serial number. I'll look it up and see if they filed anything on it.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

As far as any moderator notices, it may be just because you are a brand new member.


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## jr27236 (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> P.M. me your serial number. I'll look it up and see if they filed anything on it.


Thats very nice of you to offer Harley.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Yeah, I am not buying into the "SAP" theory, or else it would be talked about a bunch more.

But the chainbrake meltdown, well, that is very, very common. As well as the owner's denials/blame etc..


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## drumbum (Jan 7, 2018)

I can't believe I read the whole thread.

Saw that cuts with brake on? Drum spinning with brake engaged?
Saw melted from cutting technique, dogging?
WTF


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

> P.M. me your serial number. I'll look it up and see if they filed anything on it.


I sent you the info. Stihl already has this, but thanks for the offer.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Well, the dealer must not have even registered your saw when they sold it to you.

Call the distributors and raise some hell:

Northeast STIHL
2 Patriot Way
Oxford, CT 06478
Telephone: 203-929-8488
Fax: 203-944-5642


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Well, the dealer must not have even registered your saw when they sold it to you.
> 
> Call the distributors and raise some hell:
> 
> ...



Already did. Below is their response:
_Thank you for the purchase and use of a STIHL MS 291 Chain Saw. I am sorry to hear of the engine issue you are having, attached please find the STIHL Gasoline Guidelines Brochure as fuel accounts for 97% of small engine starting and running issues. As you can see below the saw was shipped to the dealer on 9/5/2012 and never registered, we use a month after the dealer received the saw as a in service date when this occurs. I spoke the Chad Little’s about your saw and the piston and cylinder are badly scored, if a chain saw has a defect in materials or workmanship it most often fails in the first 30 days of ownership. There are a number of things that may cause a saw to fail, improper storage or fuel age or mix, improper operation, or an air leak in the engine. As your saw operated for 3-5 years before failing I am sure we can rule out any defect from STIHL, with a saw that is not registered and age of 3-5 years you are outside the guidelines of assistance from STIHL.
Regards
Fred Froatz
Technical Service Manager
Northeast STIHL

_


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2018)

Maybe the saw makers should put a blinking red light on top of the saw to warn people that the chain brake is on...


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Maybe the saw makers should put a blinking red light on top of the saw to warn people that the chain brake is on...


Not sure what the point of your sarcasm is. The OP stated that wasn’t the case, and my MS291 it obviously isn’t the case.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

So, how many years, or more over, how many actual hours were put on your saw?
Or, how many chains have you been through? {just for an idea of actual usage}..


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> So, how many years, or more over, how many actual hours were put on your saw?
> Or, how many chains have you been through? {just for an idea of actual usage}..


1 chain. Under 50 hrs. I’ve owned it about 4 years now, but reported problems within the first month. The saw has spend most of its time on the shelf since I had to actually work. Each time it was used I used a premix nonethanol to eliminate the possibility of the well known ethanol issues in small engines. I went out into my garage and just snapped some images. FYI, I have never EVER cleaned this saw. It might not look immaculate, but you can tell it has had very little use.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

MaineMikeD said:


> 1 chain. Under 50 hrs. I’ve owned it about 4 years now, but reported problems within the first month. The saw has spend most of its time on the shelf since I had to actually work. Each time it was used I used a premix nonethanol to eliminate the possibility of the well known ethanol issues in small engines. I went out into my garage and just snapped some images. FYI, I have never EVER cleaned this saw. It might not look immaculate, but you can tell it has had very little use.


FYI, by 1 chain I mean I’m still on the original chain. I’ve sharpened it myself twice.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Yeah, actually , I would say well under 50 hours.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

I mean, actual run time, way low.
So is that the state that the saw is in now?


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

So how did they say "piston damage"? Did they show you the damage?


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> So how did they say "piston damage"? Did they show you the damage?


Those pictures are from today. The dealer just told me over the phone it was a scored piston, and it would cost more to fix than getting a new saw. I had them keep it while I contacted Stihl. Stihl said they weren’t going to do anything. So I picked up my saw, and I’m out >$400. I trusted Stihl based upon my experience growing up, and everyone in my family owning them. I was an idiot to think that way, apparently.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Do you have a torx tip wrench?

Just take off the top cover and the muffler, and snap a pic of the piston.

Real easy to do.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

The crankcases on that line of saws is pretty solid, I rarely sell one.


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## HarleyT (Jan 7, 2018)

Metal crankcase bottom molded into the crankcase/housing, with back bar stud into metal, coil mount, oil pump mount, one of the bottom screws into metal. Solid.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

I believe


HarleyT said:


> Do you have a torx tip wrench?
> 
> Just take off the top cover and the muffler, and snap a pic of the piston.
> 
> Real easy to do.


27


HarleyT said:


> Do you have a torx tip wrench?
> 
> Just take off the top cover and the muffler, and snap a pic of the piston.
> 
> Real easy to do.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 7, 2018)

HarleyT said:


> Yeah, I am not buying into the "SAP" theory, or else it would be talked about a bunch more.
> 
> But the chainbrake meltdown, well, that is very, very common. As well as the owner's denials/blame etc..


I'm afraid I don't buy the sap theory at all either, because:

There is no sign of excessive sap on anything in the pictures, just a burned clutch area and an otherwise pretty clean case. 

Saws are designed to cut wood, and all wood has sap to some degree. Why doesn't this happen all the time?
It looks just like every other plastic cased Sihl that got run with the brake on, or left on high-idle with the brake on.
BUT...If the saw were a Poulan Pro 5020 the damage would likely not have happened, because it has an outboard clutch (the heat source) which is held further from the plastic case, and has a metal clutch cover. A plastic case and an inboard clutch is a bad design, especially for those who insist on starting their saws with the brake on.

And none of that has anything to do with the scored piston above.


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## dougand3 (Jan 7, 2018)

Whew, that is one ugly piston/rings...could the saw have been straight gassed? If not, there has been a big air leak or way too lean carb for quite a while.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

dougand3 said:


> Whew, that is one ugly piston/rings...could the saw have been straight gassed? If not, there has been a big air leak or way too lean carb for quite a while.


There isn’t a chance in this world that saw had straight gas unless the dealer did something that stupid while “fixing” it one of the times they had it. This saw was barely run, and only had premix 50-1 which is what the manual called for.


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## blsnelling (Jan 7, 2018)

Straight mix or air leak. Pressure test it and find out.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

blsnelling said:


> Straight mix or air leak. Pressure test it and find out.


The images weren’t visible in the links. Do you recommend a pressure test kit?


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2018)

A fellow brought one of those into our local shop wanting it rebuilt. It had a piston like that. Customer said it wasn't in warranty since it was used professionally and he didn't want OEM. I checked and couldn't find any aftermarket parts for that saw at the time. This was about a year ago if I remember right..


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2018)

If the piston looks as bad as that one I don't pressure test them, I just rebuild them and replace or check everything that could leak.


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## jr27236 (Jan 7, 2018)

MaineMikeD said:


> There isn’t a chance in this world that saw had straight gas unless the dealer did something that stupid while “fixing” it one of the times they had it. This saw was barely run, and only had premix 50-1 which is what the manual called for.


So in my opinion that severe of scoring and the dryness of that piston is more of the most recent catastrophic failure. I would be looking at the carb boot for a tear possibly? Also wonder if the genius at the dealer retuned the carb and leaned the hell out of it. Either way your out of warranty and I'd pull the carb limiters and see where the screws are at (do you know how to do this?).


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

jr27236 said:


> So in my opinion that severe of scoring and the dryness of that piston is more of the most recent catastrophic failure. I would be looking at the carb boot for a tear possibly? Also wonder if the genius at the dealer retuned the carb and leaned the hell out of it. Either way your out of warranty and I'd pull the carb limiters and see where the screws are at (do you know how to do this?).


I bought a Husqvarna 455 so I might just strip the MS291 down, and sell what I can, and never buy Stihl again. I appreciate everyone’s efforts on this site helping me (or trying to). If the Stihl reps that I interacted with acted like that maybe I wouldn’t be as pissed.


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## MaineMikeD (Jan 7, 2018)

MaineMikeD said:


> I bought a Husqvarna 455 so I might just strip the MS291 down, and sell what I can, and never buy Stihl again. I appreciate everyone’s efforts on this site helping me (or trying to). If the Stihl reps that I interacted with acted like that maybe I wouldn’t be as pissed.


Just to be clear I would be selling the bar, non-engine components, etc. Obviously, nothing that could be damaged... Or I might just throw it on eBay as a scored piston parts saw...


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## jr27236 (Jan 7, 2018)

MaineMikeD said:


> I bought a Husqvarna 455 so I might just strip the MS291 down, and sell what I can, and never buy Stihl again. I appreciate everyone’s efforts on this site helping me (or trying to). If the Stihl reps that I interacted with acted like that maybe I wouldn’t be as pissed.


455 is a nice saw. I would use the 40:1 mix just for some extra lube. As for the Stihl rep, I get why they said what they said and I believe it was NOT just the damage but the time. It was out of warranty and after that time frame and the damage at hand they were never gonna do anything for it. I would be angrier with the dealer, they are the ones who couldnt properly diagnose the on going issue from the start. Hate to say it but Husky will do the same thing im sure if all the circumstances were the same. Good luck with your new saw. Just sell the old one complete and be done with it.


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## userx (Jul 16, 2019)

west041 said:


> Our 028AV crapped the bed after 30 years of dedicated service. My father bought a brand new MS 291 to replace it. This thing was terrific for 1 hr of use, and then on the second outing, about a month ago,I was bucking up a fairly large spruce. After I felled the tree, I worked the saw pretty stead for about 10 minutes limbing up and cutting the trunk into 16" lengths. I had the saw pretty well buried into the lower trunk when I start to see smoke coming out around the bar area. This whole time the chain had been moving, the brake was off and there were no signs of any problems.
> First I check the bar oil (check) and chain brake (0ff). The chain tension was just fine, but there is a lot of resistance when trying to rotate chain by hand. So I rip into it and find a bunch of burnt up plastic around the sprocket area. It goes without saying that there was OEM Stihl two stroke properly mixed in the gas. I mean this is a brand new saw. So I send it over to my dealer who we originally purchased it from and wait. A month later they come back and say Stihl won't cover the repairs. Stihl claims that I was overreving the saw with the chain brake engaged. Are you kidding me? I've been running Stihl saws since I was 12 and there is no way this is the case.
> The estimate for the repair is $541.90 so the saw is basically an assembled inventory of parts that is quite worthless to us. Parts that would need replacing are the chain sprocket, needle cage, worm gear, oil pump, engine housing, various oil seals, the brake band and the clutch.
> So as of now my father is out about $500 while getting 1 hr of use out of this brand new high end saw. Stihl just doesn't make 'em like they used to (I ran an 031 and a 1970's 041 farm boss for many years without incident) and I feel that they obviously don't care about retaining customers after this experience. I'd love to hear others' theories on what might have happened, because Stihl's version is not what happened. I am going to call Stihl directly on Monday and try to work this out because I think there was some sort of internal failure that caused this overheat. I will post updates if there is anything to update.
> ...


West041, I have a feeling it is not the sap. The same thing happened to me after the first weekend with the new saw, Stihl MS 271. It was last fall and I was running the gas out of it to store it up for the winter. It was sitting and idling and only running about 3 to 5 min (I had walked away to fumble around in the garage) and when I glanced at the saw it was smoking like crazy at the bar. Took it into the dealer and they said I left the chain brake on while revving it. I told them it was on idle and when I looked in the manual it specifically said chain brake can be engaged on idle. Anyway, it melted and I lost the pins, the oil pump melted to the housing, the housing plastic was melted and I can't seem to find a replacement housing as of yet. I have rebuilt two chainsaws since and before I attempted to fix this one. Unless I find a new housing (I believe it includes the oil reservoir as well) then I am stuck with using this as spare parts and buy another new chainsaw. I was out $400 plus, stihl wouldn't cover it and I really don't think my dealer did much at all to fight for my warranty. I will never go back to that dealer for any repair work. I will not buy another Stihl unless I hear they addressed this issue. I am doing all small engine repair myself now that I feel I was taken to the cleaners on this one. It is very frustrating and I firmly believe there is a design flaw in these new Stihls.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jul 16, 2019)

MaineMikeD said:


> I bought a Husqvarna 455 so I might just strip the MS291 down, and sell what I can, and never buy Stihl again. I appreciate everyone’s efforts on this site helping me (or trying to). If the Stihl reps that I interacted with acted like that maybe I wouldn’t be as pissed.


 No reason to never buy another Stihl again, just be careful which model of Stihl you buy. Some of the old saws that end in an even number are okay, like the 026, 044, 660 etc. are fine saws...I probably wouldn't take a 291 if someone were to give me one...


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## HarleyT (Jul 16, 2019)

So you left a saw idling alone with the chain brake on to run out all of the fuel, and it revved higher as it ran out of fuel, and melted down the saw, while you were not there? 

And this is Stihl's fault?


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## HarleyT (Jul 16, 2019)

How could they address this issue?


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## userx (Jul 16, 2019)

HarleyT said:


> How could they address this issue?


thank you, yes, there seems to be a flaw in the writing there. However, the gas never got far enough down to even be close to revving up the idle. The idle never made a difference in sound to my ears, such as an increase in idle from whence it began. Again I fumbled around for 3-5 min. I do not blame me, so why wouldn't it be stihl? And to remphasize, the manual states that the chain break can be engaged on idle. Nowhere does it say that it can idle for only a certain amount of time. Although, I will keep your comment in the back of my mind for future operations.


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## opinion (Jul 16, 2019)

The chain brake can be engaged at any time. The master control switch has no bearing on it. What you did was have your switch on throttle lock with the chain brake engaged assuming it was on idle.


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## HarleyT (Jul 16, 2019)

Well, at any rate, the clutch was engaged, causing the heat. Meaning that if the brake was not engaged, the chain would be turning. And if the chain was turning, then your idle was set too high.


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## userx (Jul 16, 2019)

opinion said:


> The chain brake can be engaged at any time. The master control switch has no bearing on it. What you did was have your switch on throttle lock with the chain brake engaged assuming it was on idle.


thank you. Maybe there is something I do not understand in your statement, but not sure how I would have had it on throttle lock and think it was idle. This was a new machine and neither the throttle trigger or the lock was sticking. I certainly understand that the chain brake can be engaged anytime; and I understand why it shouldn't be when pulling the trigger. Unless the manufacturer had the idle set too high, I don't see how this could have happened. And no, at the time I had not taken the cover off to see if there was an issue with the throttle nor would I have any reason to adjust the idle.


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## Andyshine77 (Jul 16, 2019)

It's clear in most cases the high idle had been set and the saw was allowed to run with the chain break on. The idle would have to be way off for this to happen, unlikely. It's possible the throttle was stuck open a bit, but unlikely. The simplest most obvious answer is usually the correct one. This also happens quite often.[emoji111]


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## stilh036prohog (Jul 16, 2019)

CR888 said:


> What you did was press the brake handle a wot while cutting, that's all. Not fully engage the brake by locking it forward but merely apply some pressure on it while cutting and when saws operate at 8-10k rpm it don't take much to generate too much heat. You need to read this so you are contious of this and don't repeat the mistake. l consider myself experience with saws and l have done this while trying too cut stumps low to the ground, however without the results you got. I cannot believe after 19 pages nobody has considers this, its not that hard to work out what happened.


I don't think the brake was on,just leaning on to much. You can do it with an 041 not the clamshell's. I have seen this many times. Yeah it will a new seal


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## stilh036prohog (Jul 16, 2019)

west041 said:


> Is everyone in agreement that the clutch springs probably got cooked and the clutch needs replacement? I've never cooked a clutch before so I don't know.


Yes


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## Canyon Angler (Jul 16, 2019)

MaineMikeD said:


> I believe
> 
> 27



Nitromethane and nitrous oxide? Or just straight-up oxygen and acetylene?


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## aesmith (Jul 24, 2019)

CR888 said:


> What you did was press the brake handle a wot while cutting, that's all. Not fully engage the brake by locking it forward but merely apply some pressure on it while cutting and when saws operate at 8-10k rpm it don't take much to generate too much heat. You need to read this so you are contious of this and don't repeat the mistake. l consider myself experience with saws and l have done this while trying too cut stumps low to the ground, however without the results you got. I cannot believe after 19 pages nobody has considers this, its not that hard to work out what happened.


Out of interest, which saws have brakes that work like that? I just have two, an MS180 and MS260, but on both of these movement of the brake lever doesn't have any braking effect until the over centre mechanism snaps the brake on. I had assumed all saws worked like that.

Also as an aside both stop if the brake is applied even at full throttle, again surely that's how they have to work. So possible to rev the engine with the brake on, but not possible to cut.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jul 26, 2019)

Unlike a lot of people I don't put the brake on when I start my saw, especially the plastic saws...


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## west041 (Oct 14, 2019)

I find it hilarious that 2 and 3 years after I fixed this saw and moved on people are still coming back to this thread to talk about running the saw with the chain brake on. Some people on here have a reading comprehension problem. 

To summarize: although I was initially a little miffed with Stihl for not covering the issue with the original saw in this thread, I realized it could have been operator error that caused the issue and just went ahead and replaced all melted parts myself and got the MS291 going again. 

I can say with certainty - 
-The saw was never run with the chain brake on
-The saw was never started or idled with chain brake on
-I absolutely do not think the MS290/291 are plastic "disposable" saws nor do I blame the dealer or Stihl for not covering the repair. From the pictures it certainly looks like someone ran it with the brake on but that is not what happened.

Since the repair in 2016 we've put hours and hours and cut many cords of wood with this saw with absolutely no problems. Everyone that uses it is conscious of not leaning on the 291 too hard and making sure to keep the chain moving and checking the clutch area for heat. I still don't know for certain what caused the problem but I do wish some on here would read the entire thread before commenting. I doubt that it was sap that caused the issue, I think I probably leaned on the saw too hard while bucking up the spruce I was cutting. That, coupled with the 290's poor oil delivery rate and inboard clutch probably caused the extra heat that started melting stuff. Hope this puts an end to the speculation from people who couldn't read all 25 pages of this thread.


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## a. palmer jr. (Oct 14, 2019)

Like you, I don't know what could cause the saw to melt on the clutch side other than having the chain stuck in wood or chain brake on, etc. After having several cheapie saws that I've used for several years I don't think there are very many disposable saws, Stihl or otherwise..


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## B.C. (Oct 15, 2019)

I didn't have time to read all 25 pages but assuming that it didn't get gummed up (I'd say kinda unlikely personally imo) and that the chain brake was definitely not engaged. If it was engaged I would think the brake band would show some serious wear, if it does, there you go, if it does not, well then the chain brake was NOT on to cause the damage. I would think on a brand new saw the chain brake band would have near zero wear if it was not engaged.

Something I'd think possible that wouldn't be the OP's fault is possible oiler issue from the factory. Run it without the bar on and make sure it oils good. If it doesn't, well that might have been the issue in the first place.

Also the only way something got gummed up that would have caused that I'd think is the bar oiler hole might have got plugged with sap. If that was the case then the chain probably would have gotten silly hot as well, you should have seen smoke coming off the bar between cuts before it got that hot to damage your saw in a 16" log. I've had a few times where there was an oiler issue and I'd see the bar smoking way before I damaged the saw so I'd think that scenario here is unlikely.

Another possibility could have been there was oil in the clutch drum either from the factory or from running it and cleaning with air or other possible ways, one way or another getting oil inside the clutch drum, causing slip & heat. I've had this happen on a number of saws where they oil a lot, especially a husqvarna 288 I'm in process of rebuilding. It oils SO MUCH its silly and if you are just idling it / warming it up for 30 seconds to a minute it would throw so much damn oil everywhere it would get inside the clutch by itself. Had a newer Craftsman with a terrible clutch design that would **** the bed on itself and oil it's own clutch too. Probably unlikely the saw did it itself on a 291, I've ran a new one myself through a few days of large trunks with no issues last year. But it is possible that it had oil in there from factory, or someone ran it for a bit with chain on and not cutting for long enough the inside got covered, or if you cleaned it out after the first run with air you have to be careful not to blow oil into the clutch. I've done it multiple times now and am now more aware of it. IF I had to guess without seeing the bar & chain to judge further and just going by the first pictures I'd probably lean toward oil in the clutch somehow or another. If you generated that much heat with lack of oil to bar that chain I'd think would be so blued any file would skate off it.

If the chain/bar were ok and looked like oil was getting to them, and there was no wear on the brake band, then I'd say there is only one other possibility, and that's oil in the clutch. Also if you only saw smoke from the clutch area and not the chain/bar area and you know for sure the brake has no wear then again I don't see any other possibility.

*I didn't realize this thread was that old until I read the last page here, hah. Maybe the deductions will be helpful anyway for you or others.


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## west041 (Oct 15, 2019)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Like you, I don't know what could cause the saw to melt on the clutch side other than having the chain stuck in wood or chain brake on, etc. After having several cheapie saws that I've used for several years I don't think there are very many disposable saws, Stihl or otherwise..



Well I think it is telling that I've run MS200, 250, 026, 028, 290, 291, 029 Super, 041 044, 066, 076, 880, for over 15 years now in all kind of wood and have only ever had this clutch melt. I'll admit that I may have leaned on it too hard but some on here like to make some pretty ridiculous claims. How dumb do you have to be to run it with the chain brake on?


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## Woodchunk1980 (Apr 14, 2021)

west041 said:


> Neither of these things should happen with a brand new saw under proper operation. The saw was buried in a spruce, but it was a limbed up 14-16" trunk that was in a good spot. The saw started to smoke, at which point I shut it down. There was nothing in the chain movement to suggest slippage, brake engagement or any obstruction or clogging in the sprocket area. It wasn't like I had it pinched in the middle of a 30" weeping willow in August with a dull chain. I feel like that is what many think I was doing.
> 
> Basically the people in the "operator error" camp are saying that either:
> A. I'm a liar
> B. I'm incompetent


I know this is from 6 years ago but I recently had the same thing happen. I used it for an hour with no problem. I shut it down went to get some lunch came back and fired it up and it started smoking. I definitely did not have the break on. I watched a guy explaining the inertial brake system and seems as though it can be engaged with out the lever engaging and go unnoticed. I have used a Poulan my dad gave me four several years, biggest problem was the carb gumming up on it. I will say though it worked fine for the first hour.


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## ham (Apr 14, 2021)

I hate myself for reading all 25 pages christ

To sum this up for anyone else

Clutch and/or band overheated. OP claims to be extremely experienced and had no idea this was happening. Tons of personal attacks and sarcasm from both sides. Possibly some factory defect but unlikely. Stihl denied warranty and was apparently very rude but "has seen many burned up 291s so who knows". 

Consensus is overall it was operator error and even if it was a factory defect or slipping clutch how did the OP, a very experienced operator who owns 15 pro level saws, not notice at all that anything was happening. He bought a new clutch, drum, oiler, got it running again for $50 in parts.

Trust me, do not sucked into the entire thread, it's a waste.


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## Vintage Engine Repairs (Apr 17, 2021)

I have read all 25 pages, it was an interesting read. I guessed right away it was a case of leaning on it in the cut and the clutch constantly slipping in the drum.

People like Andy, lone wolf, Pioneer and Harley have a huge wealth of knowledge and have been involved with saws and repairing them for decades. When they and others see this very common issue, although there are a few things that can cause it, it’s always the same result - user error.

They are top blokes and will tell you how it is. The intention isn’t to offend, but they’ve heard it all before about people saying it wasn’t them that caused it when it really is. This issue is almost a weekly occurrence on the forum of smoked clutches. Patients wears thin and it’s told how it is. Essentially, if you are having to lean on it in the cut, either the chain is dull, it’s on backwards, there is no hook or the depth gauges are too high.

None the less, it’s a lesson learnt and you’ve come out the other side with more knowledge and experience, you’ve fixed it and it runs well by the sound of it. It’s great you’re still part of the forum and that you’re still around @west041


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## HarleyT (Apr 17, 2021)

Funny how if anyone says anything the reader disagrees with, it becomes a personal attack. I think that our world has lost the ability to discuss anything.
These online "discussions" are dependent on the scant info provided by the O.P., so determining anything from this view is fairly hard to do. So folks shouldn't take things so serious, and also be a bit more able to handle someone disagreeing with you.


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## ham (Apr 17, 2021)

HarleyT said:


> Funny how if anyone says anything the reader disagrees with, it becomes a personal attack. I think that our world has lost the ability to discuss anything.
> These online "discussions" are dependent on the scant info provided by the O.P., so determining anything from this view is fairly hard to do. So folks shouldn't take things so serious, and also be a bit more able to handle someone disagreeing with you.


 It's not really what was said, it was the way it was said. It's far more effective to get your point across if you can do it without little digs and quips. The internet has made it incredibly easy to say things to someone you would never say to their face. That said, the OP took the bait hook line and sinker which fueled the fire, and also refused to accept anyone's opinion until deep into the entire thing.


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## KASH (Apr 18, 2021)

Yea he got roasted pretty good.we will never know the cause 100 percent ii think it was chain brake caused maybe a bit from him being new to chain brakes or maybe it was set partialy on from the factory.
I run older saws I have an Ms250 I like it but rarely use it as it is finicky to start I am aware of the plastics and chain brake set up and am care full.
If I bought a new saw I would try it at the dealer
If the chain brake did not totaly stop the chain at any speed or throttle position Give me another one
Try the saw in blocks of wood the saw should cut with no over heating at any throttle setting.
I would ask the dealer can I cut spruce or balsam with this saw or is it allergec to sap
I have cut thousands and thousands of spruce and balsam trees with various saws and with a daily cleaning No problems.
Todays world every body is really big brave and opinionated when they sit feeling safe and protected behind their computer screen.
Nobody wants to take responsibilty for their own actions like you get drunk at my house and then drive your car and get a DUI and its my fault for giving you drinks.
I find on forums if some one gives an opinion on a problem all of a sudden there are a bunch of guys who know nothing jumping in to cheer the bully guy on and belittle the problem guy.Just like a flock of Ravens on a moose carcass.
The people who post a problem probably know in their hearts what they did wrong but are looking for mommy to tell them it wasn't their fault .
I can help with my opinions on chain saw problems but Im no Shrink.
Kash


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## Canyon Angler (Apr 19, 2021)

west041 said:


> Everyone that uses it is conscious of not leaning on the 291 too hard and making sure to keep the chain moving and checking the clutch area for heat.


I generally don't "lean on" any of my saws, including the 660. The saw should pull itself into the cut with not much more than its own weight. If you need to sit on a saw to get it to cut, that's a good clue something isn't right.


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## a. palmer jr. (Apr 19, 2021)

Canyon Angler said:


> I generally don't "lean on" any of my saws, including the 660. The saw should pull itself into the cut with not much more than its own weight. If you need to sit on a saw to get it to cut, that's a good clue something isn't right.


 Yeah, usually a dull chain...


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## mstndvn (Jul 29, 2022)

Well it's 2022 and not much has changed. I bought a new Sthil MS291, started it and ran the blade but never cut anything. The first day I was ready to cut, I started the saw and placed on the ground to warm up. 20 seconds later blue smoke started pouring out. Dealer said chain break was on and burnt out the clutch. How is this possible if I just started the saw and wasn't touching the trigger?


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## huskihl (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> Well it's 2022 and not much has changed. I bought a new Sthil MS291, started it and ran the blade but never cut anything. The first day I was ready to cut, I started the saw and placed on the ground to warm up. 20 seconds later blue smoke started pouring out. Dealer said chain break was on and burnt out the clutch. How is this possible if I just started the saw and wasn't touching the trigger?


Guessing you left it in the high idle position with the brake on


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## a. palmer jr. (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> Well it's 2022 and not much has changed. I bought a new Sthil MS291, started it and ran the blade but never cut anything. The first day I was ready to cut, I started the saw and placed on the ground to warm up. 20 seconds later blue smoke started pouring out. Dealer said chain break was on and burnt out the clutch. How is this possible if I just started the saw and wasn't touching the trigger?


The chain brake is still working and produces heat even at idle. It makes it worse if you have clutch springs that are a little loose but 20 seconds doesn't seem like very long. The clutch drum and shoes are both made of metal and shouldn't burn out in 20 seconds. You probably shouldn't run it with the brake on though.


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## mstndvn (Jul 29, 2022)

I guess so but I just started it and placed it on the ground. So just starting it can burn out the clutch? Followed the starting instructions in the manual. What is going on here?

Im not most handy folk, but Im not the least either . . .


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## huskihl (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> I guess so but I just started it and placed it on the ground. So just starting it can burn out the clutch?


Choke until it pops. Move lever to hi idle no choke until it starts. And blip the throttle to take it off hi idle. And then you can engage the brake and set it down safely


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## mstndvn (Jul 29, 2022)

Yeah no word of that anywhere in the manual. So if you choose the wrong idle setting, you burn out the clutch and your saw is shot? Are we serious here?

Not arguing with you bro, just expressing frustration for such an egregious design flaw.


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## Bubster (Jul 29, 2022)

Best thing to do is never start a saw with the brake on.I watched a guy one day make a cut,lock the brake,move a limb,release the brake,cut,and repeat over and over for what seemed like 100 cuts.Basically,just make sure the saw is at low idle when you engage the brake.


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## mstndvn (Jul 29, 2022)

I hear you but they should put that in the manual. That's the first I've heard of this and now the chainsaw is ruined.


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## Bubster (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> I hear you but they should put that in the manual. That's the first I've heard of this and now the chainsaw is ruined.


Well for what its worth,a clutch is not that expensive and easily replaced.Hopefully thats all the damage done.Chock it up to a hard lesson learned.Just keep in mind the chain brake is really just there in case of a kick back.It is a good idea to set the brake if you have an idling saw and are walking on a steep bank or crawling over brush though.


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## grizz55chev (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> I hear you but they should put that in the manual. That's the first I've heard of this and now the chainsaw is ruined.


Every single saw made this century has the high idle feature, I'm guessing yer new to operating a chainsaw. First clue is calling the bar a " blade".


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## huskihl (Jul 29, 2022)

mstndvn said:


> Yeah no word of that anywhere in the manual. So if you choose the wrong idle setting, you burn out the clutch and your saw is shot? Are we serious here?
> 
> Not arguing with you bro, just expressing frustration for such an egregious design flaw.


It’s like learning how to drive a car. You can’t learn it by reading the manual. If you were sitting in gear with the brake on and the accelerator pedal pushed halfway to the floor for a minute, your transmission would probably be junk as well. Same thing. There are things you’re expected to know that they shouldn’t have to explain in a manual


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## a. palmer jr. (Jul 29, 2022)

I got used to using the old saws that didn't have a brake so subsequently I hardly ever use a brake on my newer saws but I never remove them. You don't have to worry about burning things up when the brake isn't on unless you get it stuck in a tree and keep the throttle down..


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## MudgeHollowBeaver (Jul 30, 2022)

Nitroman said:


> If the chainbrake was applied, how could you over-rev the saw? You'd smoke the clutch, but not melt everything around it.


As you are smoking a clutch it gets very hot and m. . elts all the plastic surrounding it. I was given a low use Echo CS310 that was either fast idled with the brake on, or tried to cut with the brake on, or maybe weak (cooked) clutch springs. Needless to say that the side cover, main housing, and the oil pump area were just a mess of melted plastic. Not worth repairing. Most of the parts saws that I found online are also missing these parts Makes me appreciate my old all metal Stihl 031av workhorses


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## HansFranz (Jul 30, 2022)

huskihl said:


> There are things you’re expected to know that they shouldn’t have to explain in a manual


Yeah, having to explain that you shouldn't hold the throttle WFO for 9 minutes with the brake engaged is kinda like having to explain, in the owners manual for a welder, that you shouldn't weld aluminum while soaking in a bathtub.


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## huskihl (Jul 30, 2022)

HansFranz said:


> Yeah, having to explain that you shouldn't hold the throttle WFO for 9 minutes with the brake engaged is kinda like having to explain, in the owners manual for a welder, that you shouldn't weld aluminum while sitting in a bathtub.


Yep same


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## MudgeHollowBeaver (Jul 30, 2022)

AKDoug said:


> Remember that on a chainsaw clutch, weak springs don't effect it's grip. The springs are to keep it closed until the right amount of RPM is reached.


Yep, and if the springs are weak they let the shoes slip out LIGHTLY against the drum at idle and create a lot of frictional heat...


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## MudgeHollowBeaver (Jul 30, 2022)

Maybe some Chinesium parts are being used ?


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