# Felling or bucking more likely to result in injury?



## softdown (May 22, 2021)

Felling is more likely to result in serious injury but I constantly feel like bucking could easily snap a leg or squash a foot pretty bad. Felled logs constantly behave somewhat unpredictably. 

Today I dropped a log on the edge of my foot/boot. I was able to cut enough of the log to make it roll off my foot but the discomfort doubled for a second as the log rolled. Thought I might be in real trouble for a second.

Got my attention enough to think about keeping a logOX in some type of backpack. Think I could be kind of strong with a log on my foot. Solo operator and that's just the way it is.


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## jetsam (May 23, 2021)

Stand back and look before you cut (or do anything else that can cause a log to swing or fall). What will happen if I cut there? 

If standing downhill is the problem, maybe look into a longer bar. I am happy to trade a little power for a little extra reach in a lot of situations. When you are standing on the high side, whatever is gonna happen is (usually) gonna happen away from you.

If uneven surfaces are the problem, always get it down first. Job one is to get all the wood on the ground where it's not going to hurt you; job two is to get it bucked into the lengths you want. Don't reverse 'em.


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## softdown (May 23, 2021)

jetsam said:


> Stand back and look before you cut (or do anything else that can cause a log to swing or fall). What will happen if I cut there?
> 
> If standing downhill is the problem, maybe look into a longer bar. I am happy to trade a little power for a little extra reach in a lot of situations. When you are standing on the high side, whatever is gonna happen is (usually) gonna happen away from you.
> 
> If uneven surfaces are the problem, always get it down first. Job one is to get all the wood on the ground where it's not going to hurt you; job two is to get it bucked into the lengths you want. Don't reverse 'em.


Some good insights there. But I was arguing that it may be easier to get injured once the tree is on the ground while bucking it. The injuries may be more common but likely much less serious than a tree falling on somebody. Mostly just snapped legs and smashed/pinned feet and legs.

I have literally thousands and thousands of limbs to remove - all from pine trees on a slope. Many quite large pine trees. I called it a log - it could have been called a tree. No way to budge it without significant leverage. 

The idea of a longer bar has merit but a larger saw creates arm fatigue - another safety issue. Cutting a few trees is miles apart from clearing acres.


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## TheJollyLogger (May 23, 2021)

We used to say a tree is most dangerous once it's down... bucking properly is definitely an underrated skillset.


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## softdown (May 24, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> We used to say a tree is most dangerous once it's down... bucking properly is definitely an underrated skillset.



Agreed. The top and middle of the tree should be straight forward most of time. The bigger challenge lies with the limbs that keep the trunk off of the ground. When that tree falls and rolls - can be troublesome. Right now I am considering some type of jack to hold it in place. Too bad my best and biggest was stolen last December - all for a druggies next high.


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## TheJollyLogger (May 24, 2021)

What good would a jack do? The goal is to get the stem on the ground. Just learn how to handle reaction wood, and be vigilant.


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## softdown (May 24, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> What good would a jack do? The goal is to get the stem on the ground. Just learn how to handle reaction wood, and be vigilant.


Like I said - to hold it in place. Having had a tree on my foot two days ago, I think a little caution is warranted. Excessive machismo is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs hierarchy.


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## Philbert (May 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> Excessive machismo is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs hierarchy.



Or this:



softdown said:


> Solo operator and that's just the way it is.



Philbert


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## oldfortyfive (May 24, 2021)

Pole saw is great for the limbs. Keeps you out of the mess.


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## TheJollyLogger (May 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> Like I said - to hold it in place. Having had a tree on my foot two days ago, I think a little caution is warranted. Excessive machismo is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs hierarchy.


Actually, guys that work solo without being properly trained is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs industry. You are skipping steps and felling trees you haven't been even trained to buck up, working solo, and thinking some piece of equipment will make up for lack of training. Who has excessive machismo?


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## TheJollyLogger (May 24, 2021)

And understand, we are trying to help you, but a jack will not solve your problems... the fact that your foot was where it shouldn't have been says this is more of a technique/body positioning/ training issue.


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## softdown (May 24, 2021)

Philbert said:


> Or this:
> 
> 
> 
> Philbert





oldfortyfive said:


> Pole saw is great for the limbs. Keeps you out of the mess.


 Not doing 2000 2-6" limbs with a hand saw. On the other hand - using my Milwaukee pole saw has a lot of merit when things look sketchy. Used it for the first this afternoon - wasn't on my radar until now. I think the bar is 10" - slow going. But relatively safe!

All in all - sound idea.


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## softdown (May 24, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Actually, guys that work solo without being properly trained is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs industry. You are skipping steps and felling trees you haven't been even trained to buck up, working solo, and thinking some piece of equipment will make up for lack of training. Who has excessive machismo?


Those guys are no more loggers than the guy with a fishing pole is in the dangerous job of fishing. I doubt their injuries are placed under the logging profession stats though I could be wrong.


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## softdown (May 24, 2021)

I've been wanting to get a skid steer with mulcher for a long time. Just needed to sell a house first. Clearing acres of mountain land by yourself is just ridiculously risky. Have no intention or interest in doing more than this lot - in spite of offers. 

Very, very few want to clear forest fire burned acreage. For one thing old dead trees can fall without warning - that risk grows every year after the fire. 

Professional logging is best left to teams of younger men.


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## Philbert (May 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> On the other hand - using my Milwaukee pole saw has a lot of merit when things look sketchy. Used it for the first this afternoon - wasn't on my radar until now.


A lot of my cutting is storm damage cleanup. I prefer to use a Sawzall type tool, when trees are mixed in with building debris. I _L-O-V-E_ my battery pole saws for reaching into sketchy piles of trees and removing branches / limbs, releasing tension, etc. As you note, most have limited power compared to even a modest, conventional chainsaw. Good to have a range of different tools and skills for different situations.

Philbert


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## TheJollyLogger (May 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> Those guys are no more loggers than the guy with a fishing pole is in the dangerous job of fishing. I doubt their injuries are placed under the logging profession stats though I could be wrong.


Oh good Lord, I was describing you... anyway, God bless, stay safe, and no, jacks are not the answer. Just learn from every tree and watch where you put your feet, lol


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## oldfortyfive (May 24, 2021)

softdown said:


> Not doing 2000 2-6" limbs with a hand saw. On the other hand - using my Milwaukee pole saw has a lot of merit when things look sketchy. Used it for the first this afternoon - wasn't on my radar until now. I think the bar is 10" - slow going. But relatively safe!
> 
> All in all - sound idea.


So far I've had to replace the pole on my Echo PAS system saw twice. When things are fallen, tangled and twisted it's a life saver. I probably use my poll saw as much for stuff on the ground as in the air. I really worry more about all the tripping hazards than anything else.


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## Wow (May 29, 2021)

softdown said:


> Agreed. The top and middle of the tree should be straight forward most of time. The bigger challenge lies with the limbs that keep the trunk off of the ground. When that tree falls and rolls - can be troublesome. Right now I am considering some type of jack to hold it in place. Too bad my best and biggest was stolen last December - all for a druggies next high.


For years I've carried a rope. When a tree is felled and those big limbs are holding it dangerously high when possible I snub it off with a good snub wrap and a release of nothing more than an Alpine Butterfly or Farmers knot. My technique is get the small stuff off and out of the way. I then cut what I call a knee on several of the big limbs on one side and start lowering from one side to the other and when it's a bit off the ground try to block it up and buck it up. I've seen a big pine roll and the big limb swing over all way across and that could kill a man. Once I was training some guys and demonstrated exactly that. Except I cut that swing limb shorter. Sure enough the tree did a quick roll and I was not hit but it was obvious the limb would have had it been longer. Once there was a leaner with sever lower limbs which I trimmed.
Sure enough as it was falling (a plunge cut and a back cut) the tree had center decay (not visible until it fell) and it twisted. The shortened limb whizzed past only inches away like a baseball bat. After a lot of years I've been very lucky. The worst ( as far back as I remember) was I'd dropped a huge tree and was bucking while standing in a huge thicket full of saw briers, dead limbs brush and black berry bushes. At one point the saw bar tip (36 inch bar big saw) pinched and kicked straight back like a mule. I was young and strong and held on for dear life. I was standing and the back of the saw slammed straight into my gut. Still holding the saw but off the gas I flew backwards while realizing I didn't want a saw in my lap still holding it straight up with both hands. No way to catch myself and down into the brush I went flat of my back. I got scratched up pretty good but was still holding the saw and finally killed it set it aside and managed to get up. Sticks stuck into me. Scratched up good by briers etc. I was near home so I took the day off and had a lady friend clean my back with salt water and pick splinters and stickers out. Yep had some "there" too. Was a few days before I got over that.


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## rarefish383 (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm not pointing fingers. I think this old story is what Jolly is kind of getting at. I think I saw it here 15-20 years ago. A renowned hand surgeon was killed in a freak accident on his 30 acre estate. He was an "EXPERT" at felling trees. He had been doing it for 30 years on his estate. Every news video called him an expert, every news paper article called him an expert. After watching the video's and reading the articles, I figured he was an expert at re-attaching hands, and didn't know squat about felling trees. He dropped one on himself and expired. He worked by himself at home. Who knows how many he took down using bad methods, with no one to show him the proper way. I work by myself and have given much thought to reconsider the practice. A little difference between me and some new guy to the trade is, I actually had a license when I was in business. There is an old saying that most accidents are by new people that don't know better, and old guy that know better, but get complacent. I have permission to cut standing dead wood on 3 farms. The farm hands can skid logs out to a landing for me, and load the wood on my trailer. I put a tag line in every tree I throw, even if it has a definite lean in the direction I want it to go. I've seen hollow trees break off at the hinge. I've seen a little limb that you would think would just break off, hang in the tree next to it and spin the whole tree 30 degrees off the point of throw. My Dad used to say, "Do as I say, not as I do". If you are by your self, the only advice you have is yours, and if you are not trained, schooled, educated, EXPIERENCED, it might be real bad advice.


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## rarefish383 (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm sorry, the way the question is worded is plucking at me. Neither is overly dangerous if you know what you are doing, if you haven't a clue, they are both dangerous. I just don't see why an experienced guy would ask the question, and I don't see why a newbie would ask a potentially dangerous question of a bunch of guys on line. I quit following the home owners helper thread because there are a half dozen or so guys that really know what they are doing. Then you get a guy that's only been using his Craftsman chainsaw for a month, answering potentially dangerous questions, with really stupid advice, and his advice is just as viable as the pro. The problem with asking advice here, is guys are going to answer assuming, you have equipment as good as theirs, that's as sharp as theirs, with out actually knowing the OP. If the OP posts a pic and I say, "Just make a deep notch and follow with a fast back cut." Turns out the OP has a dull MS 290 with an 18" bar, and I'm using my MS 660 with a 36" bar that I just sharpened razor sharp. Too many variables to safely give advice on line.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 11, 2021)

rarefish383 said:


> I'm sorry, the way the question is worded is plucking at me. Neither is overly dangerous if you know what you are doing, if you haven't a clue, they are both dangerous. I just don't see why an experienced guy would ask the question, and I don't see why a newbie would ask a potentially dangerous question of a bunch of guys on line. I quit following the home owners helper thread because there are a half dozen or so guys that really know what they are doing. Then you get a guy that's only been using his Craftsman chainsaw for a month, answering potentially dangerous questions, with really stupid advice, and his advice is just as viable as the pro. The problem with asking advice here, is guys are going to answer assuming, you have equipment as good as theirs, that's as sharp as theirs, with out actually knowing the OP. If the OP posts a pic and I say, "Just make a deep notch and follow with a fast back cut." Turns out the OP has a dull MS 290 with an 18" bar, and I'm using my MS 660 with a 36" bar that I just sharpened razor sharp. Too many variables to safely give advice on line.


I think my main point is at the end if the day technique trumps an equipment fix.... and honestly I would rather deal with a spar supported by limbs than on some jack rig that could spit out at any point when you take a limb of that changes the COG... sounds way sketchy to me... I would rather have it suspended on limbs that I can remove in a planned fashion than one questionable stable point of connection...

Case in point... cleaning up after Ike in Houston in '08 I was bucking and limbing with a trackhoe with thumbs... he lifted the trunk up so I could buck it... and happened to put a **** ton of tension on the trunk, neither one of us saw it, but when I got 2/3 of the way through it basically did a horizontal barber chair and swatted me 30' like I was a bug.... 2 busted ribs later I told him thanks but no thanks, I will buck and limb where they lie, lol


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## johnsayen (Jun 11, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> I think my main point is at the end if the day technique trumps an equipment fix.... and honestly I would rather deal with a spar supported by limbs than on some jack rig that could spit out at any point when you take a limb of that changes the COG... sounds way sketchy to me... I would rather have it suspended on limbs that I can remove in a planned fashion than one questionable stable point of connection...
> 
> Case in point... cleaning up after Ike in Houston in '08 I was bucking and limbing with a trackhoe with thumbs... he lifted the trunk up so I could buck it... and happened to put a **** ton of tension on the trunk, neither one of us saw it, but when I got 2/3 of the way through it basically did a horizontal barber chair and swatted me 30' like I was a bug.... 2 busted ribs later I told him thanks but no thanks, I will buck and limb where they lie, lol


Wow


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## rarefish383 (Jun 12, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Actually, guys that work solo without being properly trained is a big reason that logging holds its position in the dangerous jobs industry. You are skipping steps and felling trees you haven't been even trained to buck up, working solo, and thinking some piece of equipment will make up for lack of training. Who has excessive machismo?


I get your point. This is the quote I was rambling on about. Too many people that absolutely should not be working alone, are. At UPS we would bring tractor trailer drivers up from within. At peak season we would hire temp drivers. I asked our manager why he didn’t hire this one temp, full time. He said he personally told the guy not to perform blind side backs in the yard. Our yard was so tight you could not walk between the trailers. The guy could do it, continued to do it, with no issues. But our blind side backing accidents increased by younger drivers trying to do what the temp could do. Bottom line, they didn’t want people bringing bad habits into the yard, no matter how good they were. If you learn how to do something wrong, it will eventually bite you. There are plenty of variables out there just looking for you, Don’t need to add bad habits to the mix.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 12, 2021)

rarefish383 said:


> I get your point. This is the quote I was rambling on about. Too many people that absolutely should not be working alone, are. At UPS we would bring tractor trailer drivers up from within. At peak season we would hire temp drivers. I asked our manager why he didn’t hire this one temp, full time. He said he personally told the guy not to perform blind side backs in the yard. Our yard was so tight you could not walk between the trailers. The guy could do it, continued to do it, with no issues. But our blind side backing accidents increased by younger drivers trying to do what the temp could do. Bottom line, they didn’t want people bringing bad habits into the yard, no matter how good they were. If you learn how to do something wrong, it will eventually bite you. There are plenty of variables out there just looking for you, Don’t need to add bad habits to the mix.


One of the biggest challenges I always had training new climbers was getting them to crawl before they walked, so to speak. They had seen me do something in a special situation but didn't appreciate the thought that went into the decision to do it that way, that time.... You have to know the rules before you can break the rules, and know why you are breaking the rules in that specific situation.


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## quantico (Jun 14, 2021)

I am no pro.. but have been cutting stuff here and there for 40 plus years. Understanding physics and knowing where not to put a foot or hand is critical. Thinking before you act is the skill, car repairs...building. cutting trees or wood or using a cutting torch you need to think about what you think will happen or what might happen expected or not.


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## outdoor_frenzy (Jun 15, 2021)

oldfortyfive said:


> So far I've had to replace the pole on my Echo PAS system saw twice. When things are fallen, tangled and twisted it's a life saver. I probably use my poll saw as much for stuff on the ground as in the air. I really worry more about all the tripping hazards than anything else.


Here’s what happens when using a pole saw and not clearing the ground as you go. Ripped my favorite shirt that day.


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## Philbert (Jun 15, 2021)

oldfortyfive said:


> So far I've had to replace the pole on my Echo PAS system saw twice. When things are fallen, tangled and twisted it's a life saver. I probably use my poll saw as much for stuff on the ground as in the air. I really worry more about all the tripping hazards than anything else.





outdoor_frenzy said:


> Here’s what happens when using a pole saw and not clearing the ground as you go.


That's why questions, like the title of this thread are practically impossible to answer. Just learning that it's the tree that might '_get_' you, not the scary chainsaw, is a huge concept to understand. Then, all the variations between trees, environments, situations, etc. Any time you try to pick the 'one', 'most important' thing, you ignore all the others.

A lot of these things can fall under '_situational awareness_': what types are hazards might be in the work area? what are my escape route*s* (plural)? etc., along with your assessment of the tree, etc.

Philbert


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 15, 2021)

My mentor always told me "never cut faster than you can think..."


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## jetsam (Jun 16, 2021)

Also be aware that you can plan out the possible outcomes all you like, but you do not actually know what the tree will do. Is there a punky spot in your hinge wood? Is there a steel fence post in the middle of the tree? You don't know until you start cutting.

So make your plans, but be aware that the saw and the tree might both do something unexpected, and both can be fairly exciting.


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## cookies (Jun 16, 2021)

I think bucking is the more likely to injure. Once the tree is on the ground people get in a rush to cut it up it also seems to create a false sense of safety since its on the ground. Then you have people rushing around to remove debris and using a saw as fast as possible to cut as they go or keeping up with machinery/loading etc


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## Vanguard (Jun 17, 2021)

A few things I've always lived by and a few ramblings that might help put this in perspective...

1. I'd rather get laid off because I worked safely than as a liability.
2. I'ts better getting canned doing something right than screwing things up.
3. Just because a long time veteran says they've been doing 'xyz' for 30 plus years doesn't mean they've always done it right for that long.
4. Always be an Apprentice in trade and craft, constantly learning something new and honing skills
5. Treat every business you work for as if it's your own, and treat everyone you work with as the business owner or the CEO.

I'd rather buck 48" wood on flat ground with minimal compression and / or tension than fell a 12+ inch - 40+ foot leaning Alder, knowing it has a greater chance to barber chair.

I'd rather fell a 6 inch - 20 foot straight Alder than buck 16" wood with compression and / or tension in several areas of the log on a slope with branches and brush around me everywhere.

Hopefully this might shed some light since there is no right one-size, fits all answer here.


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