# My Dumb Question #1



## CuttySnark

Hi, new here. But have been reading here often, as good info seems to be here more than elsewhere on various wood cutting topics

Anyways, this is something I keep wondering about every time I see a hot saw competition video

Why isn't there any electric powered hot saws?

And now that I'm starting to see some interesting battery-powered saws coming out from more respectable brands, it seems this question deserves more attention

Or have I just not spotted the electric hot saw when it happened? I've searched for that, so pretty sure it's not been happening

Why I would want to run such a saw? Max torque at zero RPM. No clutch=no clutch issues. Software driven chain braking - can enable the braking to react just as the bar leaves the cut & long before a guard hits your wrist. Programmable chain speed ramp-up/ramp-down. Consistency from cut to cut. Reliable starting/elimination of all mechanical failure points. Backpack battery allowing a better distribution of saw weight. Variable bar oiling with a BLDC oil pump. Greater flexibility in the ergonomics of how the throttle is placed & more reliable linkage from finger motion to chain speed using optical or hall effect position sensing of the throttle control


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## Woodslasher

I think it's for the same reason that most guys don't build top handle race saws, until you get a big powerful engine it's not worth trying to soup it up. Also, porting in it's simplest form is grinding on cylinders, mufflers, and carburetors. Hot rodding electronics is a whole 'nother ballgame.


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## CuttySnark

Woodslasher said:


> I think it's for the same reason that most guys don't build top handle race saws, until you get a big powerful engine it's not worth trying to soup it up. Also, porting in it's simplest form is grinding on cylinders, mufflers, and carburetors. Hot rodding electronics is a whole 'nother ballgame.


Being an entirely new ballgame can't be the definitive reason! It's a good reason for anyone who only knows gas power, and I'm not interested in convincing a proven tradition to adopt an electric platform

As for the basic requirement of starting out with a motor that performs, lets just assume I could theoritically show up with a Tesla motor & battery packs that only last just long enough to do one full run. But personally, I would prefer to build the motor from scratch and use an aftermarket motor controller with the features I like. The controllers are the more tricky part of the 'ballgame'. Lets just begin with this example: https://vesc-project.com/

But what about the organizers of a hotsaw competition? Lets say I've built something that follows as many of the rules as possible, demonstrating an effort to not cheat or take any shortcuts in safety. Can I compete with an electric hot saw? Or would it be against the rules?


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## ValleyForge

electric saws are a novelty….


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## cookies

Find a older 220v electric saw, soup that up


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## CuttySnark

ValleyForge said:


> electric saws are a novelty….


Assuming you mean battery powered saws, they have been a novelty, and up until very recently, just a consumer toy

I have a couple of corded electric saws, which for the bar size & work area limitations have done fairly well. I do have an issue with the cord getting tangled underfoot, so that is an additional work hazard to be careful with. Which is why I'm starting to look at battery options

I've recently been running a Hart 40 volt leaf vacuum, and now a weedeater with interchangeable tool heads. The leaf vac uses a brushed motor, so it's not very impressive for the runtime and amount of work I get with it. The weedeater is on an entirely different level. That uses a brushless motor, has amazing runtime & power. A 4 amp-hour battery can run up to an hour if I only use just enough throttle to get a decent cut. The throttle control is many times better than any gas powered weedeater, for going slow. For example, cutting grass at the bottom edge of a camping tent I use as a garden shed, without getting tangled in the tent lines. The Hart trimmer head does have one fatal flaw in that it draws in tall grass & winds it around the head until it jams. Walmart doesn't have enough experience in yard work to know better. I'll have to come up with something to stop that, maybe a better shield, or a line cutter. Still deciding how I want to fix that

But this year, I see a small battery saw that's comparing well to the gas saws in it's size range. I'm seeing battery saws from Stihl, Husqvarna, Milwaukee, DeWalt. Makita has a top handle version designed expressly for arborists. So the novelty might be starting to wear off now....


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## CuttySnark

cookies said:


> Find a older 220v electric saw, soup that up


I think you're talking about something a sawmill would run, with a corded mains supply?

Doesn't hotsaw require having everything the saw needs, to be held by the operator?

Well, maybe not counting remote starters run by a 2nd crew member - aren't there battery powered remote starters? If so, then my idea has already been sitting out there on the competition stage, just not being put to work properly...


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## ValleyForge

CuttySnark said:


> Assuming you mean battery powered saws, they have been a novelty, and up until very recently, just a consumer toy
> 
> I have a couple of corded electric saws, which for the bar size & work area limitations have done fairly well. I do have an issue with the cord getting tangled underfoot, so that is an additional work hazard to be careful with. Which is why I'm starting to look at battery options
> 
> I've recently been running a Hart 40 volt leaf vacuum, and now a weedeater with interchangeable tool heads. The leaf vac uses a brushed motor, so it's not very impressive for the runtime and amount of work I get with it. The weedeater is on an entirely different level. That uses a brushless motor, has amazing runtime & power. A 4 amp-hour battery can run up to an hour if I only use just enough throttle to get a decent cut. The throttle control is many times better than any gas powered weedeater, for going slow. For example, cutting grass at the bottom edge of a camping tent I use as a garden shed, without getting tangled in the tent lines. The Hart trimmer head does have one fatal flaw in that it draws in tall grass & winds it around the head until it jams. Walmart doesn't have enough experience in yard work to know better. I'll have to come up with something to stop that, maybe a better shield, or a line cutter. Still deciding how I want to fix that
> 
> But this year, I see a small battery saw that's comparing well to the gas saws in it's size range. I'm seeing battery saws from Stihl, Husqvarna, Milwaukee, DeWalt. Makita has a top handle version designed expressly for arborists. So the novelty might be starting to wear off now....


Yes, the toy saws…


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## cookies

CuttySnark said:


> I think you're talking about something a sawmill would run, with a corded mains supply?
> 
> Doesn't hotsaw require having everything the saw needs, to be held by the operator?
> 
> Well, maybe not counting remote starters run by a 2nd crew member - aren't there battery powered remote starters? If so, then my idea has already been sitting out there on the competition stage, just not being put to work properly...


Plenty of guys run corded electric saws around their firewood piles, most have a in the air cord setup than hangs down and swivels around the work area. Sawmills run harvester bars i'm not sure what the sawyers at the mills run.


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## CuttySnark

ValleyForge said:


> Yes, the toy saws…


Well, what I'm posting here about isn't about bringing one of those toy saws to a hotsaw competition. But it does seem somewhat relevant that the marketplace is beginning to transition towards battery power. That's like comparing a Honda Civic to a top fuel dragster. You can't really compete in top fuel by using a daily driver as your yardstick

In the same manner, I'm only here to discuss using a BLDC motor with torque in the range of 150~500 ft-lbs, weighing under 200lbs with controller, but not counting a bar & chain

I guess it might make more sense to contact an event organizer & ask them about this topic


cookies said:


> Plenty of guys run corded electric saws around their firewood piles, most have a in the air cord setup than hangs down and swivels around the work area. Sawmills run harvester bars i'm not sure what the sawyers at the mills run.


I would be one of those. In particular, I really love running my Worx JawSaw one handed, pushing it straight down into the ground over poles. You want fast work? Try one of these things out. It gets the job done fast enough that you need to be careful about tripping over piles of cut rounds. It doesn't need the pole to be up on a cutting block. Just that the ground should be flat enough to not have anything sticking up into the bars path. The JawSaw has a guard that keeps it off the ground. It sucks the pole up into place, then catches that on dogs. The bar then swings across the pole by pushing down on it. It only goes up to around 6", so it's for bucking up branches into kindling

I'll look into an 'air cord'. Maybe just run a line overhead & drop a cord down from the middle. I've run lights that way, to light the yard up

I've also rigged up a corded saw to run off of a inverter. Took that out into the woods. I had to downsize my saw because it pulled too many amps. Went from a 14" to a 9". The bigger saw was making the inverter shut down. If I remember right, that was a 3KW inverter

I'd guess a hotsaw rig will be more like 20-50KW. I'm certain it'll be something appropriate for a sport bike that can hit 150MPH, so that's where I would start looking for motor designs

Not that I'm actually planning on building such a saw right now. It's just something I keep wondering about. If I knew there was a chance that such a thing wouldn't be a waste of time & money because it wouldn't be allowed to compete, then that would be the end of that idea. But all I see so far is a lot of petrol heads who think I'm wasting my time doing something new that hasn't been done before


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## ValleyForge

CuttySnark said:


> Well, what I'm posting here about isn't about bringing one of those toy saws to a hotsaw competition. But it does seem somewhat relevant that the marketplace is beginning to transition towards battery power. That's like comparing a Honda Civic to a top fuel dragster. You can't really compete in top fuel by using a daily driver as your yardstick
> 
> In the same manner, I'm only here to discuss using a BLDC motor with torque in the range of 150~500 ft-lbs, weighing under 200lbs with controller, but not counting a bar & chain
> 
> I guess it might make more sense to contact an event organizer & ask them about this topic
> 
> I would be one of those. In particular, I really love running my Worx JawSaw one handed, pushing it straight down into the ground over poles. You want fast work? Try one of these things out. It gets the job done fast enough that you need to be careful about tripping over piles of cut rounds. It doesn't need the pole to be up on a cutting block. Just that the ground should be flat enough to not have anything sticking up into the bars path. The JawSaw has a guard that keeps it off the ground. It sucks the pole up into place, then catches that on dogs. The bar then swings across the pole by pushing down on it. It only goes up to around 6", so it's for bucking up branches into kindling
> 
> I'll look into an 'air cord'. Maybe just run a line overhead & drop a cord down from the middle. I've run lights that way, to light the yard up
> 
> I've also rigged up a corded saw to run off of a inverter. Took that out into the woods. I had to downsize my saw because it pulled too many amps. Went from a 14" to a 9". The bigger saw was making the inverter shut down. If I remember right, that was a 3KW inverter
> 
> I'd guess a hotsaw rig will be more like 20-50KW. I'm certain it'll be something appropriate for a sport bike that can hit 150MPH, so that's where I would start looking for motor designs
> 
> Not that I'm actually planning on building such a saw right now. It's just something I keep wondering about. If I knew there was a chance that such a thing wouldn't be a waste of time & money because it wouldn't be allowed to compete, then that would be the end of that idea. But all I see so far is a lot of petrol heads who think I'm wasting my time doing something new that hasn't been done before


I don’t see the users transitioning to battery power…I see homeowners entering the market driven by government regulations removing choice, like in California…


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## CuttySnark

ValleyForge said:


> I don’t see the users transitioning to battery power…I see homeowners entering the market driven by government regulations removing choice, like in California…


There's politics involved, I wont argue that!

But the marketplace is changing, and that is something I'm keeping an eye on

Personally, I don't value battery powered tools for their emissions reductions. What I like the most is how reliable they are. Other features take 2nd place, but are also worthwhile

Take hand drills for example. Scratch that, lets go with a battery powered reciprocating saw loaded with a 12" arborist blade. I've been doing that at a farm where I work. They got a DeWalt 20 volt reciprocating saw for use in the shop. I bought some arborist blades and brought them in. The field hands tried them out for tree pruning and they're totally stoked on that combo for heavier work. But most of their pruning can be done with a much lighter hand snips. So those blades are reserved for things that used to require the chainsaw, which nobody there really wants to deal with. It just sits collecting dust. I really should've drained the tank, but got too many other things to do to bother worrying about something I never actually lay eyes on


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## ValleyForge

CuttySnark said:


> There's politics involved, I wont argue that!
> 
> But the marketplace is changing, and that is something I'm keeping an eye on
> 
> Personally, I don't value battery powered tools for their emissions reductions. What I like the most is how reliable they are. Other features take 2nd place, but are also worthwhile
> 
> Take hand drills for example. Scratch that, lets go with a battery powered reciprocating saw loaded with a 12" arborist blade. I've been doing that at a farm where I work. They got a DeWalt 20 volt reciprocating saw for use in the shop. I bought some arborist blades and brought them in. The field hands tried them out for tree pruning and they're totally stoked on that combo for heavier work. But most of their pruning can be done with a much lighter hand snips. So those blades are reserved for things that used to require the chainsaw, which nobody there really wants to deal with. It just sits collecting dust. I really should've drained the tank, but got too many other things to do to bother worrying about something I never actually lay eyes on


the market place isn’t changing as much as the government is just picking winners and losers….again.…

I don’t hold electric saws increased emissions against them either, I just don’t like the government involved in making chainsaw decisions for people..


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## Sierra_rider

I think the main knock again battery saws is the weight. Sure you could throw a backpack sorta system on, but then you have to wear that and you're back to having a cord. That might work fine for climbing saws, but it's a PITA for a brushing or falling saw.

I do think the battery-powered top handles are really great for what they are. However, they weigh a couple of pounds more than their gas cousins, once you factor in the battery. I also see the lack of sound as being an advantage in the climbing world. While that all works for the climbing saws, I could see a battery powered falling saw being prohibitively heavy.


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## Sierra_rider

I'll add something from a personal perspective. I don't know chit about modifing electric stuff, but on face value it doesn't seem as fun to me. Having a ported saw is part of the fun, but the process of building it is fun to me as well. I guess since it isn't a "perfect" process...figuring things like combustion chamber volume and shape, port timing/width/shape, ignition timing, etc. 

With electrics, how do you modify them? Throw more voltage at them?


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## CuttySnark

Sierra_rider said:


> I think the main knock again battery saws is the weight. Sure you could throw a backpack sorta system on, but then you have to wear that and you're back to having a cord. That might work fine for climbing saws, but it's a PITA for a brushing or falling saw.
> 
> I do think the battery-powered top handles are really great for what they are. However, they weigh a couple of pounds more than their gas cousins, once you factor in the battery. I also see the lack of sound as being an advantage in the climbing world. While that all works for the climbing saws, I could see a battery powered falling saw being prohibitively heavy.


Some of these hotsaws are powered with automotive V-8's. I kinda doubt anyone here is thinking about how to run one of those for falling...

I was thinking that the rules require carrying everything that the saw needs to run. Which is why I would consider a backpack with a very short cord connecting to the saw. But that's actually a bit dangerous, when you look into how many amps can be involved. So this is just a hypothetical situation

Also, I'm pretty sure no climber will want a power cord from a backpack to the saw. Just one more thing to get tangled up in

If someone were to try this just for hotsaw competition & absolutely nothing else(ever, never ever, nope!), would they be able to compete? Never mind if they never win, or if their saw never works right. Those are not the issues I'm asking about here


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## Fatherwheels

CuttySnark said:


> Hi, new here. But have been reading here often, as good info seems to be here more than elsewhere on various wood cutting topics
> 
> Anyways, this is something I keep wondering about every time I see a hot saw competition video
> 
> Why isn't there any electric powered hot saws?
> 
> And now that I'm starting to see some interesting battery-powered saws coming out from more respectable brands, it seems this question deserves more attention
> 
> Or have I just not spotted the electric hot saw when it happened? I've searched for that, so pretty sure it's not been happening
> 
> Why I would want to run such a saw? Max torque at zero RPM. No clutch=no clutch issues. Software driven chain braking - can enable the braking to react just as the bar leaves the cut & long before a guard hits your wrist. Programmable chain speed ramp-up/ramp-down. Consistency from cut to cut. Reliable starting/elimination of all mechanical failure points. Backpack battery allowing a better distribution of saw weight. Variable bar oiling with a BLDC oil pump. Greater flexibility in the ergonomics of how the throttle is placed & more reliable linkage from finger motion to chain speed using optical or hall effect position sensing of the throttle control


Way too dangerous, no noise, next thing tree on top of head.
Seriously though, electricity is dangerous to mankind, they would
need to be well sealed against rain, then how do you keep it cool,
its not like a circular saw that works inside in the dry.

Battery power to compete with the MS400 is going to take some time
to develop, until then no one will be logging with a battery saw.
Battery power is also far worse for the environment, and not renewable,
we can grow corn oil if we must, we can not acquire the materials for battery's
after we use it all up, a certain amount of recycling can be done, but there simply
is not enough of all the materials required to equip mankind with the tools or transport
required to even replace what we use already, let alone into the future, its just a means
to control people, joe public has to stay at home when the grid is down, battery no good
if its flat, on the other hand, if we keep producing corn oil, then we can keep on motoring
and cant easily be kept at home, well, not until all the intel chips in our cars turn us off,
but plenty of people are prepared for that crap too.


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## Maintenance supervisor

Can you reprogram your car? The complexity of options your talking about takes serious work! And you should probably patten the system when done.
Electric whatever is the hot topic for people who don't rely on their equipment for the same performance as combustion engines, hell an axe will cut a tree down! 
This current topic is inherently political and what control the government is exercising is theirs to wield.
Electric chainsaws were first used in the 30s and there's a damn good reason we didn't follow through with them same as electric cars (1920s ) they are a novelty and virture signaling.


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## sean donato

Not that I agree with this sentamate, but there's plenty of ways to get a high powered DC brushless motor into a chainsaw. We use them all the time in 1/5 scale rc. They make motors up and over 50hp. They take high voltage packs and pull hundreds of amps. Run time is also very short, motor and electronic speed control, and battery temps are closely monitored. Then you have the associated cost. Right now 6s to 8s is fairly affordable, and pretty powerful. If your looking for all out performance 12s to 16s is where it's at and you better be ready to sell your liver and first born to pay for it. Hence why most of us stick with 2 stroke engines. For around $2k you can get into an tylor rc or alx "big bore" engine have nearly the same power and run all day for pennies on the dollar.


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## sean donato

SENSORED LMT 3080


Experience much smoother starts and stronger synchronization in higher load when combined with our ESCs. New sensored LMT 3080!




www.mgm-controllers.com




40kw motor think it needs an 800amp esc. Just the first one I could think of off the top of my head


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## CuttySnark

Sierra_rider said:


> I'll add something from a personal perspective. I don't know chit about modifing electric stuff, but on face value it doesn't seem as fun to me. Having a ported saw is part of the fun, but the process of building it is fun to me as well. I guess since it isn't a "perfect" process...figuring things like combustion chamber volume and shape, port timing/width/shape, ignition timing, etc.
> 
> With electrics, how do you modify them? Throw more voltage at them?


Can't really just turn up the volts to fix a lack of power, after you get a build going. Once you've established what your pack voltage will be, it pretty much sets the limit for other parts of the system. Little details like what the max voltage can be for power capacitors inside the motor controller, maximum forward gate voltage for the MOSFET's, there's a few things to do with limiting inrush current that are very difficult to solve. Back EMF can ruin your day if you don't know how to deal with it. And what about learning how to make changes in the code? - piston motors are easy, in comparison. There's generations of R&D going back to the early 1900's, though in my opinion WW2 is when things really got going

Just yesterday I got into a never ending discussion on why a Buell Blast(my personal bike) has flow reversion at idle. The other guy insisted that it's perfectly fine for the intake ports to be bigger than necessary, and that the reversion was only because the bike has a high performance race cam (it doesn't) They had no interest in discussing velocity tuning a port to achieve 80% of the flow below the speed of sound, or why that might matter. But what I really wanted to go over was how that speed of sound changes when there's a partial vacuum during the intake pulse, while it's the complete opposite for the exhaust because the peak flow happens with positive pressure involved. I've already worked out that the intake port is a perfect size for a 900cc cylinder, while it's in reality a 500cc. The size of the port wasn't really an issue. I already know it's too big, it's just that's the discussion starter I had tried to begin with


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## CuttySnark

sean donato said:


> SENSORED LMT 3080
> 
> 
> Experience much smoother starts and stronger synchronization in higher load when combined with our ESCs. New sensored LMT 3080!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mgm-controllers.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 40kw motor think it needs an 800amp esc. Just the first one I could think of off the top of my head


I think I haven't done enough homework on this! 800 amps, not so sure about the backpack idea...

Oh, hold on. You're assuming 50 volts? I'd rather go with 500 volts/80 amps

I might look at that motor some more, it's actually really interesting. Just now realized how big it is


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## sean donato

No it's not something you would think about unless your in the hobby, and even then it's a niche of a niche.


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## CuttySnark

Maintenance supervisor said:


> Can you reprogram your car? The complexity of options your talking about takes serious work! And you should probably patten the system when done.
> Electric whatever is the hot topic for people who don't rely on their equipment for the same performance as combustion engines, hell an axe will cut a tree down!
> This current topic is inherently political and what control the government is exercising is theirs to wield.
> Electric chainsaws were first used in the 30s and there's a damn good reason we didn't follow through with them same as electric cars (1920s ) they are a novelty and virture signaling.


Uhm, actually I can. But that's only if I convert to something like the Megasquirt. I built one of those back when I was putting a 2.4 into a Plymouth Horizon. But then I wound up running it as ignition only and went with a set of side draft CV carbs off of a big sport bike. I think they had 40mm bores. It was really fun using a laptop to play around with a 3D timing map. The map charted RPM/MAP signal/Timing advance. I had wanted to use the TBI as a kind of ITB, by cutting it down into a single barrel. But I couldn't get any useful info on the injectors, so I welded-up a custom intake to throw the carbs at the car

Yeah, being a 'hot topic' is why I'm looking for exercise projects. I actually have some other applications that I do want to patent, should I get one of those up & running


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## Maintenance supervisor

Well the new programs are not megasquirt which is user friendly. The programs are actually modeled after DNA chains so that if you change something, say thremostat parameters your wipers will sporadically come on or the electric windows won't work. Thats the kind of complexity of just the simple stuff, electric Engines will require just as much if not more complexity to be competitive.


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## CuttySnark

Maintenance supervisor said:


> Well the new programs are not megasquirt which is user friendly. The programs are actually modeled after DNA chains so that if you change something, say thremostat parameters your wipers will sporadically come on or the electric windows won't work. Thats the kind of complexity of just the simple stuff, electric Engines will require just as much if not more complexity to be competitive.


I don't know about that! But I do know that if you have to have the car inspected for emissions equipment, none of these things will pass. I live in an area where testing is not required because there's not enough cars registered per square mile. So I could 'theoretically' change out the ECU to run a Megasquirt. I think the real fun is getting the instrument cluster to play along. Or just replace that too

For custom dash panels, I use frontpanelexpress.com

That can also work for anything on a saw that's flat & requires logos or lettering, such as a something like a 'custom license plate'

For more advanced stuff, I'm learning how to draw in Fusion360, which I can then export out to files that I can run on my 3D printer. So eventually I'll be making my own custom airboxes which can allow using better filters


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## lwmibc

Cutty--why not just build one, go to some meets, beat everyone's pants off for cutting speed and watch the reactions? Might be a novelty show at first, but so was freestyle at the Olympics once.

Hard to get that cord snaked through the cut blocks though, so I don't know just how much it will change practical chainsaw evolution the way logger sports days have done; any faller trying to beat 300 cu meters per day watches how fast a gas saw can cut at those things, thinking of how long he stands in one place every working day making sawdust. Who knows the future.


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## CuttySnark

lwmibc said:


> Cutty--why not just build one, go to some meets, beat everyone's pants off for cutting speed and watch the reactions? Might be a novelty show at first, but so was freestyle at the Olympics once.
> 
> Hard to get that cord snaked through the cut blocks though, so I don't know just how much it will change practical chainsaw evolution the way logger sports days have done; any faller trying to beat 300 cu meters per day watches how fast a gas saw can cut at those things, thinking of how long he stands in one place every working day making sawdust. Who knows the future.


I'd be inclined to do just that

But I'd like to know why I would be the first one to try it. If it's just something that nobody thought was worth looking into, or if it's something outright banned?

ps - only cord involved would be a 3' cable running from a battery pack to the saw, if I were to try having the battery separated from the saw itself. I'm mainly thinking about how Stihl has a backpack battery system. I would be doing the same thing as Stihl in the one respect, even if the voltage is different. Be funny if I actually used the Stihl pack, but modified with my own battery. I'd probably have to use a Warn winch connector, or something like that, instead of the Stihl connector. Melt that little thing in a second!


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## Lightning Performance

OP

When you mention ports and sizing them accordingly you lost 99.99% of the readers here. It's like beating a dead horse trying to discuss things most will never be able to comprehend. Almost no one has a clue about actual port configurations or how to achieve better velocity rates and not just "grind it bigger" the old copycat way. You'll find a few more might understand the concepts of voltage vs amps but the genera public still has no clue on how a brushless DC motor actually is smaller and uses less power to produce more torque with less drag. Trying to relate that to actual wet flow ports is also generally not understood very well at all. The flow bench was created for a reason and it wasn't for grinding bigger holes to get more top end volume as many would like to believe. In fact the actual inverse tends to be true because of limited quality control, longevity and some other juicy bits general not covered most times. Staying within set parameters is the preferred way to produce a broader band of useable power on an assembly line with limiting factors like packaging issues.

I'm game if you want to try some things with electric top handles but not on a public forum. It generally turns into a giant pissing match of he said he said.


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## CuttySnark

Lightning Performance said:


> OP
> 
> When you mention ports and sizing them accordingly you lost 99.99% of the readers here. It's like beating a dead horse trying to discuss things most will never be able to comprehend. Almost no one has a clue about actual port configurations or how to achieve better velocity rates and not just "grind it bigger" the old copycat way. You'll find a few more might understand the concepts of voltage vs amps but the genera public still has no clue on how a brushless DC motor actually is smaller and uses less power to produce more torque with less drag. Trying to relate that to actual wet flow ports is also generally not understood very well at all. The flow bench was created for a reason and it wasn't for grinding bigger holes to get more top end volume as many would like to believe. In fact the actual inverse tends to be true because of limited quality control, longevity and some other juicy bits general not covered most times. Staying within set parameters is the preferred way to produce a broader band of useable power on an assembly line with limiting factors like packaging issues.
> 
> I'm game if you want to try some things with electric top handles but not on a public forum. It generally turns into a giant pissing match of he said he said.


I know

But I also know that not everybody is unable to think outside of the box - by choice. Every mind is equally capable of pioneering insights into any endeavor, should there be sufficient desire to give a damn

So if I were to get enough input to push this into a working prototype, then I would suggest moving this thread over to endless-sphere.com. That's where I actually get real advice on how to make this work

But here in what I had assumed was a 'hotsaw' sub-forum, I was optimistically hoping to find out if there's any reason that a battery powered saw can't compete. So far it's sounding like I have the jump on the entire planet, which isn't something that happens every day

I already know that such a saw will work just fine provided the details are worked out, so I'm not interested in hearing why it can't work. You're right, most people say the world is flat, that only birds can fly, that the people are never going to have a say in what the landlords do. Those have no history...

So this is where I'm at right now: "Seriously? Nobody's tried simply because they haven't seen someone do it 1st? Lame...."


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## Lightning Performance

CuttySnark said:


> I know
> 
> But I also know that not everybody is unable to think outside of the box - by choice. Every mind is equally capable of pioneering insights into any endeavor, should there be sufficient desire to give a damn
> 
> So if I were to get enough input to push this into a working prototype, then I would suggest moving this thread over to endless-sphere.com. That's where I actually get real advice on how to make this work
> 
> But here in what I had assumed was a 'hotsaw' sub-forum, I was optimistically hoping to find out if there's any reason that a battery powered saw can't compete. So far it's sounding like I have the jump on the entire planet, which isn't something that happens every day
> 
> I already know that such a saw will work just fine provided the details are worked out, so I'm not interested in hearing why it can't work. You're right, most people say the world is flat, that only birds can fly, that the people are never going to have a say in what the landlords do. Those have no history...
> 
> So this is where I'm at right now: "Seriously? Nobody's tried simply because they haven't seen someone do it 1st? Lame...."


Agreed, lamb.
You'll find nothing going public from the factory R&D programs regarding these new designs. Makita is at the top of the game I'd bet.

I lack a shop currently to be dickering about on electrical parts to really get into one although I do have the battery power here and a well thought out way to use it for climbing purposes. The top handle offerings would be my place to start and altering the chain speed will be your biggest hurtle if you ever expect to catch a tiny three cube hotsaw with a damn good chain on it. Start simple and try the least amount of chain, think thin and light, to get a cut finished repeatedly without breaking the chain. Torque is going to be your enemy with electric power. Tearing up sprocket noses will be next so stepping up to regular 375 will be your best bet once you have a baseline of test to follow. If you can get your chain speed high enough without shearing of the main drive then your going to need a professionally made race chain if you want to compete. The gear drive big chainsaws from the old days solved the bearing issues and pulling more drivers on extremely long bars. You may want to look at that aspect to keep your motor rpms up to avoid overloading and overheating. It will add weight and complications but I see that as must being your chain speed needs to be insanely high in feet per minute. Just my 2ct.
GL


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## CuttySnark

Lightning Performance said:


> Agreed, lamb.
> You'll find nothing going public from the factory R&D programs regarding these new designs. Makita is at the top of the game I'd bet.
> 
> I lack a shop currently to be dickering about on electrical parts to really get into one although I do have the battery power here and a well thought out way to use it for climbing purposes. The top handle offerings would be my place to start and altering the chain speed will be your biggest hurtle if you ever expect to catch a tiny three cube hotsaw with a damn good chain on it. Start simple and try the least amount of chain, think thin and light, to get a cut finished repeatedly without breaking the chain. Torque is going to be your enemy with electric power. Tearing up sprocket noses will be next so stepping up to regular 375 will be your best bet once you have a baseline of test to follow. If you can get your chain speed high enough without shearing of the main drive then your going to need a professionally made race chain if you want to compete. The gear drive big chainsaws from the old days solved the bearing issues and pulling more drivers on extremely long bars. You may want to look at that aspect to keep your motor rpms up to avoid overloading and overheating. It will add weight and complications but I see that as must being your chain speed needs to be insanely high in feet per minute. Just my 2ct.
> GL


I'm asking about the big saws, but yeah, better to begin at the small end. Wont cost as much, for one thing, and still be able to learn a lot before going bigger

And I'm absolutely not against the idea of skipping a whole lot of scratch-building, by using an existing saw and just swapping in a custom motor. It wont look as nice, but that approach will get things going a lot faster

I bet I can find a dead saw for free, if I try

But building something from scratch allows avoiding tons of compromises when things refuse to go together because of unforseen compatibility issues

Actually, what I really should do is buy a Stihl MSA 220 C-B, then hotrod that platform. They also make a AR-1000 backpack battery that plugs directly into the MSA 220 with a short cable


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## Lightning Performance

CuttySnark said:


> I'm asking about the big saws, but yeah, better to begin at the small end. Wont cost as much, for one thing, and still be able to learn a lot before going bigger
> 
> And I'm absolutely not against the idea of skipping a whole lot of scratch-building, by using an existing saw and just swapping in a custom motor. It wont look as nice, but that approach will get things going a lot faster
> 
> I bet I can find a dead saw for free, if I try
> 
> But building something from scratch allows avoiding tons of compromises when things refuse to go together because of unforseen compatibility issues


Sure that is a given but are you willing to burn it down repeatedly?

Testing with the small stuff may just put you way above board imho vs a three cube or less.

Marrying old tech won't be very useful like a Skill 120V or 240V electric. The design and materials are inferior now days. Running that old chit off of a solar grid would be genius given parts are available to use one at the wood pile for farm chores. Getting your chain speed up is easy but producing a linear power delivery based on dual or triple rotor drives can flat out deliver more everything smoothly in a non weight limited package. I'd consider muti-motors or dual drives before singling out a single. You are thinking outside the box, yes?...

Just burn that box and maybe triple nipples are the answer or quad mods 
Never seen a "stacked pack" of drive motors so get after it soon if you want to be the first.


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## ballisticdoughnut

Stihl released the MSA 300 in Europe. Seems like the first respectable battery saw so far, that I know of anyway. Not available in the states yet.


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## CuttySnark

Lightning Performance said:


> Sure that is a given but are you willing to burn it down repeatedly?
> 
> Testing with the small stuff may just put you way above board imho vs a three cube or less.
> 
> Marrying old tech won't be very useful like a Skill 120V or 240V electric. The design and materials are inferior now days. Running that old chit off of a solar grid would be genius given parts are available to use one at the wood pile for farm chores. Getting your chain speed up is easy but producing a linear power delivery based on dual or triple rotor drives can flat out deliver more everything smoothly in a non weight limited package. I'd consider muti-motors or dual drives before singling out a single. You are thinking outside the box, yes?...
> 
> Just burn that box and maybe triple nipples are the answer or quad mods
> Never seen a "stacked pack" of drive motors so get after it soon if you want to be the first.


Linear power delivery is trivial with BLDC motor drives. But is a linear torque output the best choice at all times?

I think a single motor will be the best choice for several reasons. Only two shaft bearings, motor controllers at the entry level will typically only have one output. Motor cooling is much easier when contained inside one single case. The advantage you claim by having multiple rotors is actually much easier to do in software with only a single rotor

Maybe later, when I should get to a point where having a multi rotor motor controller built to my specs makes sense, then we'll see something like that

For now, I'll limit my choices to COTS options. But there's plenty of those as it is!

Why not take the MSA 220 and re-power it with something like that 53HP RC motor mentioned earlier? Though I haven't checked it's kilowatt rating, so I don't know if it's fast enough. But there's other RC motors out there


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## sean donato

Modern electronic speed controllers are programmable. With a sensored version you can control motor timing, speed, braking, torque curve(we refer to this as punch.) And throttle curve. When the kids want to play with my savage, I just back the throttle and punch setting way down and let them have the remote. It's a real bugger to do this with a 2 stroke. Really gearing and cooling will be your biggest issues. Run time will be the next issue. There's nothing really ground breaking, it just adapting the tech to a suitable, reliable, platform.


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## CuttySnark

ballisticdoughnut said:


> Stihl released the MSA 300 in Europe. Seems like the first respectable battery saw so far, that I know of anyway. Not available in the states yet.


Missed that, MSA 300. Nice! Stihl claims it's good for 2.5KW, or a little bit more than 3HP

But I have a hunch that the 220 might be a better candidate simply because 1st I do with the saw is rip the stock motor out and install something totally different. I'd use Stihls backpack adapter except it probably can't handle the power. So I don't even want the battery slot on the saw. That would be sliced out and replaced with a connector that might have been intended for a forklift, or something else


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## CuttySnark

sean donato said:


> Modern electronic speed controllers are programmable. With a sensored version you can control motor timing, speed, braking, torque curve(we refer to this as punch.) And throttle curve. When the kids want to play with my savage, I just back the throttle and punch setting way down and let them have the remote. It's a real bugger to do this with a 2 stroke. Really gearing and cooling will be your biggest issues. Run time will be the next issue. There's nothing really ground breaking, it just adapting the tech to a suitable, reliable, platform.


The saw only needs to make three cuts, in a log that can be as much as 30", as quickly as possible. So cooling might not be as critical as you might be accustomed to

To really push the limits, I'd be looking at BLDC motors up around 100HP, which is going to be a bit more than what a 6s lipo pack can handle


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## sean donato

CuttySnark said:


> The saw only needs to make three cuts, in a log that can be as much as 30", as quickly as possible. So cooling might not be as critical as you might be accustomed to
> 
> To really push the limits, I'd be looking at BLDC motors up around 100HP, which is going to be a bit more than what a 6s lipo pack can handle


6s would handle it fine, its getting an esc that will take the amp draw. Hence why we jump up to higher voltage in bigger motors. I was thinking more along the line of 12-16s. Helps keep the amperage down. And motors run cooler. Heat soaking is a big issue with the motors and esc, in rc application. Unfortunately there isn't room in them for extravagant cooling systems. A 100hp motor will also be quite heavy, actually at that I'd suggest twin motors just for packaging (still trying to keep it looking somewhat like a traditional saw) also would be easier on the motor(s) and esc. Making a master/slave esc is pretty common in twin motor set ups, although I haven't messed with twin motor set up. Seems to be more of a boat or custom large scale application.


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## CuttySnark

sean donato said:


> 6s would handle it fine, its getting an esc that will take the amp draw. Hence why we jump up to higher voltage in bigger motors. I was thinking more along the line of 12-16s. Helps keep the amperage down. And motors run cooler. Heat soaking is a big issue with the motors and esc, in rc application. Unfortunately there isn't room in them for extravagant cooling systems. A 100hp motor will also be quite heavy, actually at that I'd suggest twin motors just for packaging (still trying to keep it looking somewhat like a traditional saw) also would be easier on the motor(s) and esc. Making a master/slave esc is pretty common in twin motor set ups, although I haven't messed with twin motor set up. Seems to be more of a boat or custom large scale application.


I'd be using a VESC, unless I find something better. Those come in different amp ranges. Their applications state that you can use one of their ESC's for anything from RC, skateboards, bikes, motorcycles and airplanes


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## sean donato

Their highest amp rating is 300 continuous 450 burst. The data logging is a nice feature. Seems you would have to parallel a few to get the needed amp rating. I'm keen to see if this project ever becomes more then discussion. Start a thread with your progres. I'll sub to it.


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## CuttySnark

sean donato said:


> Their highest amp rating is 300 continuous 450 burst. The data logging is a nice feature. Seems you would have to parallel a few to get the needed amp rating. I'm keen to see if this project ever becomes more then discussion. Start a thread with your progres. I'll sub to it.


If it does go forward, I'll for sure post it here in the hot saw forum

But for the time being, I only want to know if a battery saw would be allowed to compete. Seems like it might be able to, but I'm getting the feeling what I should be doing is contacting someone who's in charge of organizing one of those events


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