# Leaners - multiple types - how to?



## headleyj (Mar 18, 2010)

Ok fellas, I have several "leaners" I need to take down on my place. Here's my plan - please let me know what you think: 







1. "Regular" leaner
- face cut on leaner side
- back cut with a long bar, standing back as far as possible, slowly, listening for 1st "crack", retreat as far as possible

2. Leaner with hefty split on tension side (barber chair waiting to happen)
- Shallow face cut on leaner side
- Back cut directly across hefty split, standing back as far as possible, slowly, listening for 1st "crack", retreat as far as possible


3. Uprooted Beech, on a steep hill, stuck in another tree.
- Face cut on leaner side (b/t the 2 trees)
- Back cut on uphill side (make sure it's square with face cut as to avoid a hinge and tree rolling) and hope the butt slides off rootball and plops on ground, then falls left/ right? me run opposite direction? Too much guessing, I don't like it.

this is the one I'm real worried about. I can't retreat up that hill, it's way too steep.

- Do I face cut on the right side, back cut and wedge on left side? (there's a good escape route on the left side)

Input on all 3 is greatly appreciated here.


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## gwiley (Mar 18, 2010)

Tree #1 and #2 - strap or chain about 1-2ft above your planned backcut before beginning to prevent a barber chair. You can't stand far enough back to avoid it if it happens violently enough (unless you have arms that are 4' long). I like the 5000lb tow chain with a ratchet binder.

#3 is tough - make sure there is no torsion on the stem. If the tree twisted when it got hung then it could untwist during the cut which might grab the saw and throw it back into you. Watch as you cut for signs that torsion in present (fibers in cut that should stay opposite each other start to move laterally).

You really should try to get equipment in for #3 - I position a skid steer up against the stem and cut next to the skid steer to keep the stem from whacking me (it has to move a large piece of equipment to do damage). 

You probably already appreciate the potential hidden forces in the root ball, but they like to spring in weird directions.

A safer option is to get the trunk mostly cut through then use equipment to pull it apart rather than finishing the cut with a saw.


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## cassandrasdaddy (Mar 18, 2010)

*or*

det cord


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## headleyj (Mar 18, 2010)

cassandrasdaddy said:


> det cord



hmmmm - not a bad idea really


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## 056 kid (Mar 18, 2010)

I would not cut them like you a planning. you are just counting on getting enough back cut out and not having the tree chair. Gut the face, since you have a long bar bore in and establish a hinge. take ths saw out and back cut normally. 

Do it in a way that you will have complete control, dont gamble...

If the beech is completely up rooted, its going to be opposite tension wise. the pull wood is gonna be on the down hill side & the compression on the up hill side. cut straight from the back, notice the kirf closing, you can row your saw back & forth to keep space for the saw to keep cutting. when you are about to get pinched, pull out and hit the bottom, stay in it till the butt slides off the stump and spits your rail out when it does. Be on your toes and get ready to run.
theres a chance that the root ball is going to come after you so make sure to asses the situation good. You can try & prop the root ball with some wood so that when everything goes down, the root ball will be kicked away from you by the piece of wood.

Good luck!


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## 385XP (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with 056 sounds like a good plan for tree 1 2 and 3 except i would bore in behindmy hinge ane cut toward the back of the tree . Just be carefull and make shure your ready for something to happen fast.


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## headleyj (Mar 19, 2010)

thanks fellas, I greatly appreciate it.


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## headleyj (Mar 19, 2010)

I'll admit - I read 056's post about 6 times and had some questions. These publications seem to answer all of my questions and seem to be chocked full of great info. Some elementary to experienced folks, but anyone reading this who is not experienced (like me) hopefully these help.

http://www.northamericantrainingsol...atured/Arbor_Age_Technical_Felling_Apr_09.pdf

http://www.treecareindustry.org/articles/safety/TCI1008_p8.htm

and see attached.


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## 385XP (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes that second site is a pretty good looking link. It hard to exsplain some things while your on here that would be easy in person.


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## ryan_marine (Mar 19, 2010)

Depending on where they are located I would get a big tractor.

Ray


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## SunriseAtSea (Mar 19, 2010)

*A grain of salt?*

It is hard to say how I would cut them up without seeing them. For tree three (#3), if had no machine; I might consider leaving the beech as is, depending on whether or not it is heavy against the second tree. I would make a good escape trail, cut up the second tree doing the back-cut with a plunge cut, leaving holding wood on both sides of the bar. Then when you are ready to move fast, you cut the back holding wood off fast, and get out of the way. Keep an eye on it, it could pivot sideways. This is not something you try without a lot of experience.


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## SunriseAtSea (Mar 20, 2010)

*Two grains of salt.*

I am sorry, I did not read your words correctly for tree problem number three; I didn't realise you you wanted to save the second tree. I do not have a lot experience with this sort of problem. However in that case, I would try put my back cut in the beech first, just enough to get a wedge in, do your undercut, finish your back-cut, then pull it off with as line skidder. If you have no skidder, you might consider cutting a window somewhere on your back-cut and try using a hydraulic tree jack to lift the tree off the holding wood.

I like plunge cuts:


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## 056 kid (Mar 20, 2010)

SunriseAtSea said:


> I am sorry, I did not read your words correctly for tree problem number three; I didn't realise you you wanted to save the second tree. I do not have a lot experience with this sort of problem. However in that case, I would try put my back cut in the beech first, just enough to get a wedge in, do your undercut, finish your back-cut, then pull it off with as line skidder. If you have no skidder, you might consider cutting a window somewhere on your back-cut and try using a hydraulic tree jack to lift the tree off the holding wood.
> 
> I like plunge cuts:



In the Beeches case, its more of a bucking situation due to the fact that if the roots are indeed in the air, the weight is in the belly of the tree not the crown. . . . . . . .


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## SunriseAtSea (Mar 20, 2010)

Maybe you could get a rope around the top of it and pull it down with the tractor. I seen an old farmer attach a 200' rope to near the top of a hundred foot D. Fir tree and pull it over with a team of horses, and it uprooted this 24 inch dia. tree completely. Lots of leaverage, pulling from the top.


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## GASoline71 (Mar 20, 2010)

056 kid said:


> In the Beeches case, its more of a bucking situation due to the fact that if the roots are indeed in the air, the weight is in the belly of the tree not the crown. . . . . . . .



Yep... and be prepared for that root ball to roll back away from the spar. It can get ugly in a hurry.

Gary


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## sawinredneck (Mar 20, 2010)

No's 1 and 2, go with a little bigger face than you think you need! I got burnt a year or so ago on a large Oak leaner. I made a smallish face then the back cut, just as you stated, the wind changed just a little on me. Next thing I know I have a 36" Oak barber chaired up 20ft in the air that I now have to get on the ground!
I don't do that anymore! If I question it at all, I bore cut it! No 2 I can't argue with gutting it, but I think a thin hinge, bore cut and trip it from the back to release would be my approach. Chain it even, I won't make fun of you! At least you are alive!

Tree no 3, that's just a mess! I've had hangers, but not with a rootball, that just adds to the misery! If you cannot get equipment in, well, it's gonna be a ride!
Cut a LARGE face on the downhill side, bore cut it all the way out and run like hell! Now, IF that didn't kill you, you can start to "fencepost" the rest of the tree. Cut a face cut towards the holding tree, bore cut chunks out of it until it flips back towards you out of the holding tree. I've done it once, I hope to never do it again! Yes, it's that scary!
No's 1 and 2 don't scare me all that much, no 3, I'm running off like a little girl waiting for a wind storm or an excavator!


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## 056 kid (Mar 20, 2010)

sawinredneck said:


> No's 1 and 2, go with a little bigger face than you think you need! I got burnt a year or so ago on a large Oak leaner. I made a smallish face then the back cut, just as you stated, the wind changed just a little on me. Next thing I know I have a 36" Oak barber chaired up 20ft in the air that I now have to get on the ground!
> I don't do that anymore! If I question it at all, I bore cut it! No 2 I can't argue with gutting it, but I think a thin hinge, bore cut and trip it from the back to release would be my approach. Chain it even, I won't make fun of you! At least you are alive!
> 
> Tree no 3, that's just a mess! I've had hangers, but not with a rootball, that just adds to the misery! If you cannot get equipment in, well, it's gonna be a ride!
> ...





If he does that hes gonna get pinched in the back cut. Use your head dude, if the tree is up rooted, its being held by the crown. *putting the compression wood on the up hill side & the pull wood on the down hill side....*


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## sawinredneck (Mar 20, 2010)

There is compression on both sides dude! The root ball wants to go up the hill, the tree wants to get closer to the tree it's hung in!
Did you not read the part about running away like a little girl?


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## 056 kid (Mar 20, 2010)

So you tell him to put a notch on the down hill side?????


Whats gonna happen when he gets to the end of the bored back cut. the trees gonna sit its ass on his bar... 

A notch on the up hill side would work alittle better, but there are problems involved with that approach as well.

Cmon now, the root ball is not going to go up hill, we have a law called gravity you know, we have to abide by it...


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## sawinredneck (Mar 20, 2010)

If you would read the post again, I suggested an excavator or let the wind blow it out. Otherwise I would run like a little girl. What he wants to do from there is up to him.


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## redprospector (Mar 20, 2010)

I can't tell you how I'd handle these trees without being able to see them. Even then, sometimes you second guess yourself.

We had one like your #3 after a wind storm in December. It was in town, and there was a structure it would hit if we just pulled it down. So we set a snatch block low in another tree and ran the mainline from my skidder through it and up the tree, there were two other cables used to stablize it too. Then it came down a piece at a time. 
Here's some pic's.






First "log" coming down, after the top.




You can see the house on the right.




The more was cut, the more it stood up. Until it was gone.





Andy


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## tawilson (Mar 21, 2010)

Pretty hard to tell from a sketch which way the root ball will go. It may be hard to tell even if you are standing there looking at it. There might still be a ton of dirt wanting to pull it back into the hole. Any other trees or objects to connect too? I'm thinking hold it from both directions while you cut then release tension when further away without a saw in you hands. Makes it easier to run. Just throwing ideas out there.


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## AIM (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm certainly no pro but I have successfully done several like No# 3. 
I can't really tell you where to cut on the tree without seeing it but the general idea is to compromise the integrity of the tree and then yank it apart with the vehicle you drove out there in.

To try to explain my method.....
Make a face cut on the side not towards the good tree or the hill.
Make your back cut leaving enough wood to hold the tree at least until you get away.
Did I mention to have the chain hooked to the tree ahead of time.
Have the chain hooked just above your cuts.
After your cuts are made simply yank away until something gives.
(a loaded truck works better.)
I use enough chain and strap to be a safe distance away.

Your BACK CUT will be towards your truck. The FACE cut will be away from the truck. Your trying to get the base of the tree go sideways.

If this does not work just walk away and come back a couple years later. It should be rotted enough to either yank apart easily or already be on the ground.


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## bitzer (Mar 21, 2010)

How big are these trees? 1 and 2 face them and bore behind the hinge. #2 you may have to leave a thicker strap or just be concious of your holding wood. #3 how is the tree hung up? Does it look like it could roll one way more than the other? How long a bar do you have? Does the ball look like it will stay put or roll or go back or what? Pics would help, but still won't do justice. You may be able to put an angled open face in side hill (the way it may twist) like a salami cut. Bore below the face and to the back (closer to stump), pull out and tickle the back until it goes. That way you may be working with the tension sideways instead of straight on. Its really hard to tell with no pics though. How big is this thing?


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## SunriseAtSea (Mar 21, 2010)

Lots of interesting safety stories of leaners here: 
http://www.bcforestsafe.org/node/190


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 21, 2010)

The chain and binder idea on #1 and #2 is a good idea. Often times it's the unintentional dutchman that will get you in combination with one that is split already.
On #1 you may as well use a binder &chain, but if not, plunge out a bar width behind the back of the hinge, then do the backcut really fast. You can cut your way out or your way in, but I prefer ctting my way in as you can escape quicker.

I think #3 is a no brainer. Use at least 3 wedges in the top leaving at least a 16" stump, this will help prevent the root ball from coming forward which they rarely do unless on steep ground.

Once again, it's hard to be a keyboard logger unless we have actually seen them.
Gypo


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 21, 2010)

Although no felling cuts are shown, here's a vid of a maple I cut to show what the root ball does 99% of the time.
Gypo


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## ross_scott (Mar 21, 2010)

with #1 and #2 I would be inclined to make my notch in the front then also put in a wing cut on either side of the notch this will prevent the slabbing and then bore in to set hinge wood cut back a little then put in a couple of wedges and cut the holding strap at the back. #3 I have not had to deal with one of those so I won't make comment apart from push/pull the sucker over with a bulldozer


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## headleyj (Mar 22, 2010)

great, great, great info guys. Rather than trying to address each ?, I will (in regards to #3):

1. Take a few pics tonight from several angles
2. Assess the torsional situation (IIRC, it doesn't appear it wants to twist)
3. From what I remember the rootball will want to fall back in place (that was my gut feel anyways, I will reassess tonight)

Wasn't ignorin ya'll this weekend, only have internet here at work. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input here. I'll be back tomorrow with pics.


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 22, 2010)

headleyj said:


> great, great, great info guys. Rather than trying to address each ?, I will (in regards to #3):
> 
> 1. Take a few pics tonight from several angles
> 2. Assess the torsional situation (IIRC, it doesn't appear it wants to twist)
> ...



A few pictures would be good to see. The triagular backcut is nothing new and will save a few trees. All it does is reduce the time that the tree falls as it is a competition between how fast the tree will fall and how fast the saw will cut and how big of balls the faller has.

The bottom line is you have to stay with the tree, trust it, trust the holding wood and trust the saw and trust your knowledge.

It's a really cool thing falling timber and when it's in your blood there is no possible way you will ever get sick of it.

It's you against the timber and there are few bigger rushes than to give every tree you cut the respect it deserves. That's what makes you safe.

Gypo


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## tawilson (Mar 22, 2010)

Here's a thread I started a few years back concerning an uprooted leaner that I didn't know how to deal with. It wasn't on a hill like #3, and you don't have a tractor/winch setup, but I thought I'd post it just to show the suggestions I got and how I dealt with it.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=29929


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## headleyj (Mar 24, 2010)

ok here's some pics - sorry, work's been busy





#1a - an 8" leaner - ok, not bad





#1b - 20" leaner - been dead for a few years - hoping it'll blow over





#2a - leaner with split in base





#2b - I'd esstimate it's leaning at 25°-30° from vertical - picture doesn't do it justice


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## headleyj (Mar 24, 2010)

ok here's the beech (how appropriate)





3a - angle of the tangle





3b - Tops Tangled - honestly if it has ANY torsion on it, it isn't much





3c - standing mid-hill, looking down





3d - standing at bottom of hill, looking up





3e - Rootball. The gap under the rootball is ~ 3.5'-4'. Rootball is ~8-10' in dia I'd say.

Conclusion: After 20 minutes looking, evaluating and contemplating....I'm leaving it alone. I may put a few notches in it and wait for a good storm to blow through, but that's about it. You'd HAVE to stand on the rootball, no way around it whatsoever.....not something I wanna tackle.


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## Mike PA (Mar 24, 2010)

> Conclusion: After 20 minutes looking, evaluating and contemplating....I'm leaving it alone. I may put a few notches in it and wait for a good storm to blow through, but that's about it. You'd HAVE to stand on the rootball, no way around it whatsoever.....not something I wanna tackle.
> Today 09:36 AM



That's the safest way to handle that one.

I'd like to see what other people say, but the dead trees may not be much of an issue. The holding wood is not as strong, which leads to less control, but also less chance of a barber chair. You may be able to cut the first dead leaner normally, with a fast saw and sharp chain. These are only 20" trees and you may be able to outpace any chance of b.c. The split dead you might be able to do the same, but add a chain to keep the split down. Maybe cut the split out? Doesn't look too deep in the tree? I'm curious to see what other people with more experience have to say, in case I come across one like this. Nice pics. Thanks for posting this.

Edit: Are 2a and 2b the same tree? If they are, bore cutting may be the best answer, as that is quite a lean. 2b looks like a bore cut would be appropriate, or a T cut as well illustrated in another thread.


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## bitzer (Mar 24, 2010)

The 8"er, put a small face in and give er hell from behind. 

The dead 20"er; I'd face it and bore out the heart or behind the hinge to see what kind of wood is in the middle (rotten/none, etc). Then cut it from the back. I've cut hundreds of dead trees and they can always give you a surprise. Also look up a lot for falling limbs and what the tree is doing. Its also leaning so its going to go that way, but the top might come back at you. 

The split tree, just cut above the split and you should be fine. I'd cut the heart out of that one two and then work from the back or bore behind the hinge depending on which way the tree has to go or if it needs to be swung. 

The beech. Its going to be tough getting that one out without a cable/rope and a machine or puller. The ball looks like it will go back, but like you said you'd have to stand on it. Just a salami might get it off of the stump. Then a series of salamis will get it off of the ground and maybe tipped back up the hill toward the stump, maybe. If you don't have to mess with it, don't. If you can get some equipment back there that would be your safest option. Just cut it up to where you can break the rest of the holding wood by pulling on it. Otherwise leave it alone.


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## headleyj (Mar 24, 2010)

Mike PA said:


> That's the safest way to handle that one.
> 
> Edit: Are 2a and 2b the same tree? If they are, bore cutting may be the best answer, as that is quite a lean. 2b looks like a bore cut would be appropriate, or a T cut as well illustrated in another thread.



2a and 2b are same tree yes.


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## headleyj (Mar 24, 2010)

if it's decent weather this weekend I'll practice boring on a few that need to come down but are straight, done it before, but not too much. I'll move up in size/ difficulty one tree at a time....and leave that beech of a beech alone for now 

I'm off all next week too so I can tackle then too. Thanks fellas.


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 24, 2010)

Looks like the beech is firmly lodged. There's not much you can do without equipment. If it's as lodged as it looks, simply give it one backcut and let it flop off the stump.

With regards to the split one I'd do the felling cuts above the split area.

Gypo


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## Gypo Logger (Mar 24, 2010)

I forgot to mention that once the beech is off the stump and still hung up, there's nothing wrong with undercutting it 6-8' off the ground after slightly nipping it with the saw on the top. It's quite safe to do if your on the uphill side. 
If you've cut thru and it won't hinge, a good push or kick will make it hinge.
Because it's on a slope you just have to be careful that the tree doesn't come back towards the stump.

It's almost like refalling the tree and if your cuts are placed correctly the tree will sometimes roll off the tree it's hung up in. This method is best used on trees under 16" dia. It basically comes down to nerve and experience. If you feel uncomfortable about, don't do it.
Gypo


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## headleyj (Mar 25, 2010)

thanks to all, great discussion - I will report back week after next (I'm on vacation next week so no internet access) on how everything went.

Gypo - I thought about hinging on one side and seeing if I could get it to twist and dislodge, but that's a bit above my paygrade


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## bitzer (Mar 25, 2010)

Yukonsawman said:


> I forgot to mention that once the beech is off the stump and still hung up, there's nothing wrong with undercutting it 6-8' off the ground after slightly nipping it with the saw on the top. It's quite safe to do if your on the uphill side.
> If you've cut thru and it won't hinge, a good push or kick will make it hinge.
> Because it's on a slope you just have to be careful that the tree doesn't come back towards the stump.
> 
> ...



Thats what I was talking about with the salamis. You explained it a hell of a lot better than I did though! That can get a little sketchy especially if you haven't done it a lot. I should have mentioned with that to get ready to run and jump cause once its free it can go just about anywhere. Hopefully back up hill but you never really know.


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## ric5141 (Apr 8, 2010)

headleyj said:


> thanks to all, great discussion - I will report back week after next (I'm on vacation next week so no internet access) on how everything went.
> 
> Gypo - I thought about hinging on one side and seeing if I could get it to twist and dislodge, but that's a bit above my paygrade



Did you get around to doing dealing with these last week? I have some in a similar situation.....Hope it went well


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## headleyj (Apr 9, 2010)

ric5141 said:


> Did you get around to doing dealing with these last week? I have some in a similar situation.....Hope it went well



I did not. The best of plans can always go awry - sure did last week. IDK when I'll get to them now. When I do I'll report back for sure though.


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## headleyj (Apr 14, 2010)

finally had time to cut a small heavy leaner, #1a pic above. A forked top of another tree broke out in a storm last year, came down and got stuck in another tree, yielding a heavy leaner...hard to see in the pic, look closely.

Anyways, borecut worked beautifully. Used the 346, tree was an Aspen Poplar ~ 8-9" dia at the bore. I'll use the technique again for sure. 

Haven't had time to tackle any others yet. I will update this thread when I do though.


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## gwiley (Apr 14, 2010)

glad to hear it worked out.


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## bitzer (Apr 15, 2010)

Glad to hear it worked out too. Probably could have put the face in and lined up your saw for the back cut and then just gave er hell instead of boring, but good work anyway.


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## headleyj (Apr 16, 2010)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Glad to hear it worked out too. Probably could have put the face in and lined up your saw for the back cut and then just gave er hell instead of boring, but good work anyway.



I almost did but it was a good opportunity to use the bore and practice. I have some larger ones that need bore cut for sure which I definetely don't want to BC on me.


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