# near balance point rigging



## murphy4trees (Sep 12, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuBRXDTpzFE

Nothing too crazy... 10 cuts.. And it does clearly show many of the advantages of tying off near the balance point ... better ability to steer the piece with the hinge, reducing shock loads (less movement after seperation) There was no room to let many of the pieces run, better ground clearnace, and easier handling of the piece by groundies. ... 

Going spikeless made the limb walking much easier. Up and down in an hour.. 
There is also one cut on another tree at the end of the video. Peter Fixler was the climber. Lowering line was set and tied off from the ground.


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## treemandan (Sep 12, 2009)

Good stuff Daniel. That's working together.


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## tree MDS (Sep 13, 2009)

*alright, Ive had it:*

This is insane, I was just over at another site reading more about this "balance point rigging" and listening to everyone blather on - maybe I've been doing this too long or something, but it seems to me its all just treework, not really as complicated as all that...jeezus, :censored:! 

Anyone ever heard of a tip tie/butt tie?? and no, its not slower, its safer and you can take bigger pieces right to the trunk, besides theres much less shock to the tree, Its also nice to have the butt line to guide the lead down/into the chipper, or whatever - greenhorns! What do you do when theres an actual obstacle??


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 13, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> This is insane, I was just over at another site reading more about this "balance point rigging" and listening to everyone blather on - maybe I've been doing this too long or something, but it seems to me its all just treework, not really as complicated as all that...jeezus, :censored:!
> 
> Anyone ever heard of a tip tie/butt tie?? and no, its not slower, its safer and you can take bigger pieces right to the trunk, besides theres much less shock to the tree, Its also nice to have the butt line to guide the lead down/into the chipper, or whatever - greenhorns! What do you do when theres an actual obstacle??



Lol. Somethins' sure got you fired up this mornin', MDS. I feel ya though. I didn't realize this was anything new. I use it if the situation calls for it, but it's rare. Usually if I'm working over something I'm trying to avoid hitting but it wouldn't really matter if it got scraped, like a bush or something. I'd never try a move like that in a high obstacle situation over a house. And once I'm clear of obstacles below me, just tie the closest part of the branch to your position and send it. One of murph's vids, don't know if it was this one, I didn't watch it, showed him working near other trees and I see it's usefulness there. I think some guys just like naming techniques and showing how to do it so they can pretend they invented something new.


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## treemandan (Sep 13, 2009)

My thoughts are that it takes a good eye on the ground to keep those limbs moving they way they should.


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## tree MDS (Sep 13, 2009)

treemandan said:


> My thoughts are that it takes a good eye on the ground to keep those limbs moving they way they should.



Whatever yourself there buddy: the guy should know how to run a rope by now, he's been doing/blathering about this stuff for how long now??


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## treemandan (Sep 13, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Whatever yourself there buddy: the guy should know how to run a rope by now, he's been doing/blathering about this stuff for how long now??



I hear ya but try to look beyond the mullet... I didn't say it would be easy.


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## tree MDS (Sep 13, 2009)

treemandan said:


> I hear ya but try to look beyond the mullet... I didn't say it would be easy.



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Dadatwins (Sep 13, 2009)

nice work, balancing the limbs or tip tieing is necessary on some jobs like that one to avoid tearing up the trees around it. There is always more than one way to take a tree down. Tieing at the tips does allow more control of the swing but the climber has to position himself to avoid the butt coming back. You need to have confidence in your rope man before doing this.


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## Rftreeman (Sep 13, 2009)

just seems like extra work to me going out to the middle instead of butt tying not to mention the fact that if the guy on the rope makes a simple mistake the climber could lose his head.......


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## ChiHD (Sep 14, 2009)

This video is art. It should be made mandatory viewing for all tree climbers.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 14, 2009)

ArborCARE(705) said:


> It should be made mandatory viewing for all tree _groundies_.



Fix'd. Oddly enough I had a big oak takedown to do today most branches needed "balance point rigging" due to proximity of other trees and a ridiculous landscape below. Had I not seen Murphs vids I would not know what the name was for what I had been doing all these years. I think most climbers do this on a regular basis anyway but it is more than necessary to have a groundie who knows whats up. My guy today kept trying to lock the limbs up on me and made it a real pain in the ass.


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## treevet (Sep 14, 2009)

Nice re make of an old song but the video?

How do you get this guy to do unneeded technique just to have you make a point on tree forums that don't pay you a cent?

Looked like your ages old technique actually caused the piece a few times to be thrown into the adjacent trees. Sending too large of pieces to be efficiently handled by the ground while you wield the camera.

Thought you gave up on AS (as you said it sucked) and a week or so later you're back pushing another vid of routine techniques?


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## Rftreeman (Sep 15, 2009)

butt tie the suckers and let em run......


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## Tree Pig (Sep 15, 2009)

treemandan said:


> My thoughts are that it takes a good eye on the ground to keep those limbs moving they way they should.



Yeah just ask Fishercat I bounced one off of him today... But Im blaming the porta-wrap. Thats my story and Im sticking too it. small piece no harm no foul 

Nice video Dan good to see you posting again.


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## tree MDS (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> Nice re make of an old song but the video?
> 
> How do you get this guy to do unneeded technique just to have you make a point on tree forums that don't pay you a cent?
> 
> ...



I'm waiting for murphs "how to tie your shoes like a world class climber" vid.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

Hey....back in the day....when we used to puffeth of the crooked cigarette....we used to call those things "profound revelations". opcorn:.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I'm waiting for murphs "how to tie your shoes like a world class climber" vid.



lol


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## clearance (Sep 16, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I'm waiting for murphs "how to tie your shoes like a world class climber" vid.



Shoes? I guess I am just a sleazy utility hack, I wear lineman boots. 

Question, how many of you can tie up your boots properly, by using the "loggers tie"?


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

don't know that one clearance..

looking at the vid again (sorry but I like the music), what do you see....some tip tied (butt heavy), some mid tied to get them to hinge and turn into an open space (not in reality but just for Murph's vid) and .....drum roll....the big premise ....some "near balance point tied"...wow, just think of it.

Any whoo, it seems in this vid and the last one that when the pieces were mid or balance point tied they were lowered so the climber doesn't get skewered by the butt. So.....he cuts the branch and the groundie lowers while he is cutting so it hinges over safely .....my question is...

why even have a mid tie in(balance point) ....you may just as well have butt tied it at that point. They both hinge over in the same path.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

clearance said:


> Question, how many of you can tie up your boots properly, by using the "loggers tie"?



You can't just jump in here making claims of groundbreaking new technique without a video, Clearance. Psh.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> don't know that one clearance..
> 
> looking at the vid again (sorry but I like the music), what do you see....some tip tied (butt heavy), some mid tied to get them to hinge and turn into an open space (not in reality but just for Murph's vid) and .....drum roll....the big premise ....some "near balance point tied"...wow, just think of it.
> 
> ...



If the rope is mid point tied it helps to hold the branch in the same position long enough for it to swing clear of obstacles utilizing the hinge. Sheesh, this is hard to describe over a computer 9 beers deep but let me try. 







The key is still the ground guy, he is the one that keeps the branch suspended till the point that the hinge breaks and then quickly let's it run to remove the climber from danger. It only follows thew same path as a butt tied limb if the groundman lets it run from the start.


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## treemandan (Sep 16, 2009)

clearance said:


> Shoes? I guess I am just a sleazy utility hack, I wear lineman boots.
> 
> Question, how many of you can tie up your boots properly, by using the "loggers tie"?



yer supposed to tie em?


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> If the rope is mid point tied branch in the same position longit helps to hold the enough for it to swing clear of obstacles utilizing the hinge. Sheesh, this is hard to describe over a computer 9 beers deep but let me try.



If you read my post, I included the mid tie to turn the piece. His point was made that balance point tie in clears the ground better and other trees in the area. Then he proceeds to lower the branch downward (on some cuts) to clear the climber. My point is at that point it is the exact same thing as a butt tie.



> The key is still the ground guy, he is the one that keeps the branch suspended till the point that the hinge breaks and then quickly let's it run to remove the climber from danger. It only follows thew same path as a butt tied limb if the groundman lets it run from the start.


[/QUOTE]

You are not making any point here (must be the 9 beers, I don't drink).

If the gm holds the piece if it is mid tied then the butt is going to be a threat kicking up at him. (but this is where it gets the clearance of the other trees and ground)

If the gm folds the branch to protect the climber it ends up in the same place as a butt tie and follows the same path not giving more ground clearance and not giving more later clearance to obstacles.


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## treemandan (Sep 16, 2009)

I think Peter should have went up there and did soemthing with the dead top that looked like almost killed him but I think that was Dan climbing and taking some nice shots out of the oak .


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

ps

nice illustration....hic....:biggrinbounce2:


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> If you read my post, I included the mid tie to turn the piece. His point was made that balance point tie in clears the ground better and other trees in the area. Then he proceeds to lower the branch downward (on some cuts) to clear the climber. My point is at that point it is the exact same thing as a butt tie.



You are not making any point here (must be the 9 beers, I don't drink).

If the gm holds the piece if it is mid tied then the butt is going to be a threat kicking up at him. (but this is where it gets the clearance of the other trees and ground)

If the gm folds the branch to protect the climber it ends up in the same place as a butt tie and follows the same path not giving more ground clearance and not giving more later clearance to obstacles.[/QUOTE]

There's less upward pressure on the hinge if the branch is rigged at it's balance point allowing your hinge to remain effective long after it would have broken without support from the rope being tied at or near it's balance point. I wouldn't try to swing a big branch horizontally without a rope. If you rope the butt and take out all the slack ( grcs, or otherwise ) there'd be way to much up pressure on the hinge. Tie only the tip and there's too much down pressure. But if you can get as close to balance point as possible the hinge has fewer forces acting on it and can do it's job better. Wait. Why am I explaining this to you, TV, you should know this ####. I just laugh 'cause it's nothing groundbreaking to me but based on your responses, is it?


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> If the gm holds the piece if it is mid tied then the butt is going to be a threat kicking up at him.



Yes, it will be a threat and that's why the groundie has GOT to be good. He has to see when the branch has passed the obstacle and let it run before the hinge snaps the holding fibers and puts the butt in the climbers face.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> There's less upward pressure on the hinge if the branch is rigged at it's balance point allowing your hinge to remain effective long after it would have broken without support from the rope being tied at or near it's balance point. I wouldn't try to swing a big branch horizontally without a rope. If you rope the butt and take out all the slack ( grcs, or otherwise ) there'd be way to much up pressure on the hinge. Tie only the tip and there's too much down pressure. But if you can get as close to balance point as possible the hinge has fewer forces acting on it and can do it's job better. Wait. Why am I explaining this to you, TV, you should know this ####. I just laugh 'cause it's nothing groundbreaking to me but based on your responses, is it?



Again Blakes, you are talking turning a piece when what I am contesting is not his turning premise (who doesn't know that one?) but rather the premise that it will fold within other obstacles (other tree/house) when balance point tied and the gm lowers it (straight down) to protect the climber. He also said it gives more ground clearance when in fact it does not. 

You had 9 beers?....I am wasting my time you aren't playing with a full deck.


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## oldirty (Sep 16, 2009)

clearance said:


> Shoes? I guess I am just a sleazy utility hack, I wear lineman boots.
> 
> Question, how many of you can tie up your boots properly, by using the "loggers tie"?




i dont know the logger tie but i swear by the better bow. love tying that for laces.


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## treemandan (Sep 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yes, it will be a threat and that's why the groundie has GOT to be good. He has to see when the branch has passed the obstacle and let it run before the hinge snaps the holding fibers and puts the butt in the climbers face.



Yeah which is why the job was impressive.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Yes, it will be a threat and that's why the groundie has GOT to be good. He has to see when the branch has passed the obstacle and let it run before the hinge snaps the holding fibers and puts the butt in the climbers face.



"The groundie has to be good" because some dumb a$$ is doing a "balance point" tie in for no good reason.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yeah which is why the job was impressive.



what impressed you about that job? Looked like all routine stuff to me with some totally unnecessary tie offs included.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> Again Blakes, you are talking turning a piece when what I am contesting is not his turning premise (who doesn't know that one?) but rather the premise that it will fold within other obstacles (other tree/house) when balance point tied and the gm lowers it (straight down) to protect the climber. He also said it gives more ground clearance when in fact it does not.
> 
> You had 9 beers?....I am wasting my time you aren't playing with a full deck.



Well, it's actually ten now. lol. I see, we were arguing different points. I was a bit confused I had to explain something like that to you. I can't imagine the purpose of balance rigging a limb that's intended to go straight down.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Well, it's actually ten now. lol. I see, we were arguing different points. I was a bit confused I had to explain something like that to you. I can't imagine the purpose of balance rigging a limb that's intended to go straight down.



That's totally my point Blakes..


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 16, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yeah which is why the job was impressive.



I still wouldn't call it impressive. Relatively easy for a ground guy to do, they just have to know what's up, or be able to listen when you tell them what's up. It helps if they're not on a cell phone, smoking a cig, whistlin' at the ladies, etc.


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## treemandan (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> what impressed you about that job? Looked like all routine stuff to me with some totally unnecessary tie offs included.



That he didn't get smacked in the face of course.


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## treevet (Sep 16, 2009)

treemandan said:


> That he didn't get smacked in the face of course.



But if he did we coulda quoted "Murphy's Law" and made the video a timeless classic.


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## treemandan (Sep 16, 2009)

treevet said:


> But if he did we coulda quoted "Murphy's Law" and made the video a timeless classic.



But he didn't and he took it the way he wanted which was the way he could. Sent out some nice shots. The one on the inside left was sweet coming out like that and he had some nice big flippers. ground guys looked like they had it good too.


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## Adkpk (Sep 16, 2009)

clearance said:


> Question, how many of you can tie up your boots properly, by using the "loggers tie"?



I can. 

But what I'd like to say is, must be nice to have your climber sing to you while your lowering branches for him. 

Good vid Murph, Thanks!


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## ARBORBEAR (Sep 17, 2009)

it look like you guys got to much time on your hands


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## treemandan (Sep 17, 2009)

ARBORBEAR said:


> it look like you guys got to much time on your hands



Always have time to inspect, its called inspection time.


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## treevet (Sep 17, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Always have time to inspect, its called inspection time.



inspect what?


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## treemandan (Sep 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> inspect what?



uh, the videos?


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## Rftreeman (Sep 17, 2009)

treemandan said:


> That he didn't get smacked in the face of course.


he will eventually if he keeps "balance tying".........


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## treevet (Sep 17, 2009)

treemandan said:


> uh, the videos?



and......we call that "inspection time"?  (just trying to get a grasp on this)


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## treemandan (Sep 18, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> he will eventually if he keeps "balance tying".........



Yes, that seems to be the genral consnsus though I just looked at an oak with the same configuration I could see how I could get some limbs out with this method. There were some low horizintals I would feel better with tip/butt tie with the house being there. Plus its half dead so added security is nice. 
oak is a good tree to work doing the mid tie thing when you have to really get the most out of a notch.


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## treemandan (Sep 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> and......we call that "inspection time"?  (just trying to get a grasp on this)



A reference to time we spend looking over each other work and bickering. So'all good.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 18, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Yes, that seems to be the genral consnsus though I just looked at an oak with the same configuration I could see how I could get some limbs out with this method. There were some low horizintals I would feel better with tip/butt tie with the house being there. Plus its half dead so added security is nice.
> oak is a good tree to work doing the mid tie thing when you have to really get the most out of a notch.



*treemandan*: Would you elaborate on; _"when you have to really get the most out of a notch"_, just a little, please?

thanks


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## treemandan (Sep 18, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> *treemandan*: Would you elaborate on; _"when you have to really get the most out of a notch"_, just a little, please?
> 
> thanks



Think about what the notch you have just cut is supoosed to do and when. Its the whole cause and effect thing thing. The notches he cut were made to break at a certain point, you can hear the one, it sounded like it was working, good thing it broke when it did huh?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 18, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Think about what the notch you have just cut is supoosed to do and when. Its the whole cause and effect thing thing. The notches he cut were made to break at a certain point, you can hear the one, it sounded like it was working, good thing it broke when it did huh?



Yeah, I got ya ... I was thinking "hinge" you were saying "notch" ... just a semantics thing. A good notch will break a good hinge at just the right time ... good point. Thanks!


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## treevet (Sep 19, 2009)

treemandan said:


> A reference to time we spend looking over each other work and bickering. So'all good.



just funnin' wit ya.


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