# Carabiner question.



## iangoldsmith196 (Jun 18, 2007)

Hi.
Very new to harness work, but very keen to get airborne. My questions are regarding carabiners. I want to start training a.s.a.p and am slowly gathering my equipment as and when I can afford it. So...

What type of carabiner do you recommend for attaching the rope to the harness/saddle? Is there a minimum kn rating? I understand that the HMS type are popular, but which ones? Is steel or aliminium important? How many will I need for the very basic harness/rope/prussik set up and what type do you favour? 

ANY and as much information as you can give will be gratefully received.

Thanks.

Ian.


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## moray (Jun 18, 2007)

Wecome, Ian. You might cruise around the Sherrill Web site--they have a lot of biners for arborists. Almost all are aluminum, minimum strength (in US) is just over 22 kN. The arborist ones need to be triple action to guard against accidental opening.

You'll probably need a minimum of a couple. I like the Petzl Am'd, Item: 28337.

Good luck


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## newguy18 (Jun 18, 2007)

iangoldsmith196 said:


> Hi.
> Very new to harness work, but very keen to get airborne. My questions are regarding carabiners. I want to start training a.s.a.p and am slowly gathering my equipment as and when I can afford it. So...
> 
> What type of carabiner do you recommend for attaching the rope to the harness/saddle? Is there a minimum kn rating? I understand that the HMS type are popular, but which ones? Is steel or aliminium important? How many will I need for the very basic harness/rope/prussik set up and what type do you favour?
> ...



get auto lockers unless they will be used in rigging get aluminum. and minimum breaking strength i think is 26 kn or 5,000 lbs.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jun 18, 2007)

Just so you know.............1 KN (kilonewton) is approximately 225 lbs.


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## daveyclimber (Jun 18, 2007)

I have always used Petzl William Ball lock, Am'D is another great and is a D shape which is probably better suited if you need a more compact package. (I have big hands so I use the William) They also are key lock instead of pin lock so less snagging on the rope.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 18, 2007)

Forget the biners, go with a locking rope snap-easier to unsnap with gloves on. If i do need to use a biner though, i like the ones that sherrill's calls the jake. The only problem is that it is a pin lock gate.


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## Blinky (Jun 18, 2007)

I like the Petzl ball lock Am'D. DMM Boas are nice too. Definitely positive locking mechs though


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 18, 2007)

I use an aluminum rope snap on my climbing line, and an Petzl AMD ball lock on my split tail.


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## moray (Jun 18, 2007)

One nice thing about a big biner like the Petzl William Triact is you can hook your rope and both ends of a closed split tail on just the one biner. Not so great, though, if you have to pass a limb on the way to your TIP.


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## iangoldsmith196 (Jun 19, 2007)

*Thanks.*

Thanks guys for taking the time out to give your thoughts. Most appreciated.


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## jomoco (Jun 19, 2007)

*Carabiners*

I've no objection to using locking biners for climbing line redirect applications,
however using them for a primary bodyline attachment point is something I just won't do, I use a double locking rope attachment clip manufactured and rated for that specific purpose.

Now I know there are lots of climbers that will argue this point, and my rebuttal is this very salient point, if you somehow fall and the dynamic force of that fall is applied to the gate mechanism of any of these fancy new biners, well all I can say is that it can be an awfull mistake with a very abrupt ending.

Primary attachment points= your life!

Think about that very hard!

Work Safe!

jomoco


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 19, 2007)

A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.

A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.

A krab should only be used with self cinching knots (unless possibly to captive eye); so that it can't wander and become leveraged across or towards gate/ so as to not carry the force inline along it's solid, long axis. So a bowline, could allow a krab to cross-load, whereby a well set/choked triple Scaffold/Noose/Fisherman's won't.

*MyTreeLessons.Com/Carabiner-Bowlines Warning*​


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## jomoco (Jun 19, 2007)

*How many climbers understand what you just said?*



TheTreeSpyder said:


> A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.
> 
> A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.
> 
> ...


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## joesawer (Jun 20, 2007)

Jomoco, I agree that rope clips are better, and safer for tree work. But, my saddle is not rated for fall arrest. It is a work position saddle. I have more confidence in its strength than in its design to protect me in a fall.


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## moray (Jun 20, 2007)

jomoco said:


> I'm telling you in the strongest terms I can, if you use these fancy new biners as a primary attachment point as an arborist, you are playing russian roulette with your life.
> jomoco



Jomoco, having watched my biner sliding back and forth on my saddle's bridge during body thrusting, and watching it twist around, on several occasions until it was hanging off the gate, I began to appreciate the deficiencies of carabiners. I solved this in two ways. When using two biners, I tie them together with a piece of string. If my closed loop split tail and rope are all on one biner, then it is always under load and has no chance to get misaligned.

Even so, I would agree that the rope clip should be safer.

But, I wonder if your "russian roulette" comment is maybe a little over the top. Arborists very rarely fall, and their equipment isn't designed to protect them against that. And on the rare occasion when a fall occurs, it would be very unlikely that the biner could somehow rotate around to load the gate, especially if the attached ropes/tails are cinched where they should be.

I think it would be more accurate to say the rope clip is marginally safer but somewhat less convenient and versatile than the biner. But I think anyone who is using two biners on a bridge-style saddle should tie them together so they cannot flop around.


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## newguy18 (Jun 20, 2007)

ddhlakebound said:


> I use an aluminum rope snap on my climbing line, and an Petzl AMD ball lock on my split tail.



am i the only person who still climbs tail tied! i tried split tail but it just seemed akward to me so i stayed traditional tail tied


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 20, 2007)

newguy18 said:


> am i the only person who still climbs tail tied! i tried split tail but it just seemed akward to me so i stayed traditional tail tied




Hi Bill.....see you made it back......:newbie: 

What do you mean by "akward"?

Using a fixed tail is fine, as long as you can set your TIP once, and never need to redirect around a limb. 

With a split tail you can re-direct very quickly, and can also use your climbing line as a secondary lanyard when climbing around crotches or limbs. You do stay tied in at all times right?

I retyped my post to be less of a flame, and more respectful, in an attempt to follow the example JPS set in dealing with trolls. (Like you...)


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 20, 2007)

jomoco said:


> TheTreeSpyder said:
> 
> 
> > A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.
> ...



I agree that TheTreeSpyder's posts are somewhat difficult to comprehend, but once you read through it a couple times, and wrap your mind around it, a new climber can gain MUCH information and knowledge from his posts. Of all the people here, if I had to list people I've learned from, TheTreeSpyder would easily be in the top 3. 

How can a person climb on VT, or martin hitch, and many others while using a rope snap?

Like spidey says, if your attachment to your biner is cinched down, not allowing the biner to rotate in the knot, its VERY difficult to side load the biner. Sure, if you tie on the the biner with a bowline you can get it to side load. So don't do that. 

I climb on a double locking biner rated at 6294 lbs/28kN. I use a martin hitch, and both legs are cinched to the biner with double fishermans. I've never had my biner rotate in the knots to side load the biner. How is this unsafe?

I do completely agree that everyone using any hardware to support their life should know exactly what they're using, and use only rated, proper equipment.


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## newguy18 (Jun 20, 2007)

ddhlakebound said:


> Hi Bill.....see you made it back......:newbie:
> 
> What do you mean by "akward"?
> 
> ...



if i am over 30 foot up i am tied in at all times i usally saftey off when redirecting my climbing line and what i meant by akward was that i was used to the bridge and i kept untying my friction knot.it sounds pretty stupid but i kept forgeting about it being split tail so i just stuck with tail tying.by the way i use a screw locking carabiner on my climbing line i aint forgot to screw it shut yet,what does everyone have against them?


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## moray (Jun 20, 2007)

newguy18 said:


> .by the way i use a screw locking carabiner on my climbing line i aint forgot to screw it shut yet,what does everyone have against them?



Just that it is one more thing you have to remember, and maybe some day you won't. If an autolocker is closed, it is locked. Not true with yours. 

If there was some significant convenience that came with the screw-lock biners, I would probably use them and pay the price of the small added risk, but I actually like the autolockers better...


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 20, 2007)

newguy18 said:


> by the way i use a screw locking carabiner on my climbing line i aint forgot to screw it shut yet,what does everyone have against them?



Screw-lock carabiners can and DO unscrew when you are climbing through heavy foliage in the canopy. They are a big: DON'T USE 'EM! So far, you have been lucky. Maybe you don't do that much work aloft, I don't know. Don't take my word for it. Please read any authoritative books out there about climbing. All will tell you about the dangers of using screw-locks.


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## 046 (Jun 20, 2007)

check out this accident getting ready to happen. I cut this knot off of a high rise window washer rig. bitter end was almost ready to back out with serious results. 

this person was really lucky knot didn't fail. moral of the story is always leave enough tail to allow for rope slippage. 

do like treesyder says and use a tripple fisherman to terminate with. 
follow the link to spyder's mytreelessons, one of the best resources on the WWW. 









TheTreeSpyder; said:


> A split tail in 2 leg/basket formation about demands a krab. These are about the best hitches around; especially in the self tending category.
> 
> A snap and krab are similar in that they are both single leg devices/hooks with fancy mousing. Both should be only loaded along their major/solid axis (only leveraging the short axis; rather than vice versa). But a snap is more self righting to this, by captive eye for rope connection, longer body, narrower(so better ratio of axis 2 different ways), and more 'dipped' hook.
> 
> ...


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## Fireaxman (Jun 20, 2007)

ddhlakebound said:


> ... once you read through it a couple times, and wrap your mind around it, a new climber can gain MUCH information and knowledge from his posts. Of all the people here, if I had to list people I've learned from, TheTreeSpyder would easily be in the top 3.



I need to say "Amen" to that. If you will take a few minutes to understand what TreeSpyder is telling you, you stand a very good chance of learning something.

He's in my top 2.

Whatever biner you use, I sure recomend key lock. It is amazing what that little hook on a pin lock will snag, and Murphy rules when it will happen.


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## NeTree (Jun 20, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Forget the biners, go with a locking rope snap-easier to unsnap with gloves on.




Especially nice if you get one spliced into your rope.


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## ADDA (Jun 21, 2007)

One of the best places to buy kit in the UK is Honey Brothers as they're also Arb Consultants......Always Aluminium 3 way or 4 way locking for any self load bearing gear and as many as you can afford. Buy a prussik loop and then buy a load of the same roap and make up your own to the same spec. This will save you a few quid. I tended to change my prussik loops fairly regularly to keep them moving smoothly. I'm a Tree Officer now so I may be out of date.


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## okietreedude1 (Jun 21, 2007)

If your worried about side loading the biner, get the captive eye style. You tie your knot into the eye and it will NEVER side load. I have one and sometimes use it. Mainly i use a DMM Boa and a spliced eye.

The captive eye I have is ISC. 

As for the snaps, I used to use them. I do have one on my lanyard but thats it. And rope snaps are Not double locking. There is only one movement needed to open the gate. They are promoted as doubles but in reality, they arent.


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## Adkpk (Jun 21, 2007)

I am confused.  I use a spreader snap on my double dee saddle. I've been using biners to attach my climbing line with. After reading this post last night when I saddled up today I took out a rope snap and thought about trying it out. I went back to the biners, one for the line and the other for the split tail. I am not real impressed with what I read last night and watching those biners clank and twist around in that spreader clip. So I took off the spreader and but the biners on the dees, one on each dee with the spreader clip still attached That didn't impress me either. I went up with the setup I 've been using with the biners clanking around. Which I feel comfortable with but certainly what to get it right. 
I get what is being said about the snap being in line as the biner can slip back to the open part. But my problem with snap is it's single locking and it won't fit in the spreader clip with a split tail setup. Does anyone else use one these spreader clips and how do you tie in?


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## moray (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm always looking over your shoulder, Adrpk!

I have to admit I don't know what the spreader snap is supposed to do. Why not take both your biners, which sound like they are hooked up right, and clip them both into one Dee? The one on the split tail will be the only one that can clank around, since the other one is always loaded.

The clanking on your type saddle is no where near as problematic as on a bridge-type saddle, but it is still undesirable. If you take an 18 inch piece of string you can quickly tie them together, after they are clipped in. The whole affair is now quite stable--no more clanking.

If you have to pass a limb, it takes about 5 seconds to remove the string, allowing you to unclip one of the biners. You are starting to sound like one of the big dogs on AS!


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## joesawer (Jun 21, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> I am confused.  I use a spreader snap on my double dee saddle. I've been using biners to attach my climbing line with. After reading this post last night when I saddled up today I took out a rope snap and thought about trying it out. I went back to the biners, one for the line and the other for the split tail. I am not real impressed with what I read last night and watching those biners clank and twist around in that spreader clip. So I took off the spreader and but the biners on the dees, one on each dee with the spreader clip still attached That didn't impress me either. I went up with the setup I 've been using with the biners clanking around. Which I feel comfortable with but certainly what to get it right.
> I get what is being said about the snap being in line as the biner can slip back to the open part. But my problem with snap is it's single locking and it won't fit in the spreader clip with a split tail setup. Does anyone else use one these spreader clips and how do you tie in?




Rather than tying a biner to the rope and then clipping it to the spreader, I just tie the rope to the spreader.


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## Stumper (Jun 21, 2007)

Adrpk, Back in the days when I used a spreader snap I tied directly to it with a long tail and tied my climbing hitch with that tail-old school and effective but it isn't nearly as nice as a split tail system when you need to redirect or pass a limb. What saddle are you using?
You may be able to dispense with the spreader ...or you may need it for comfort. Some saddles are not well suited to certain climbing styles ( and some work but just pinch).


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## Adkpk (Jun 22, 2007)

I am using a Weaver double dee. I like using the split tail and if I tie the rope directly to it the tail won't fit. I tried it without the spreader. I put the climb line on one dee and the split tail on the other I wasn't sure if that was the recommended way to tie in so I went back to biners. I am very comfortable with the saddle btw. Didn't image it would be so comfortable to climb in one. Maybe I should start a new thread and call it double dees, think it will get some attention.


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## gumneck (Jun 22, 2007)

I also use a Weaver with two sliding d's. However I have never found a need to use a spreader snap. I think it's unnecessary for you but there may be some reason that warrants its use. 

I'm always tied in twice(double ended wire core lanyard and safety line up above). 

Tom


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## joesawer (Jun 22, 2007)

I use a double D saddle and a spreader makes it much more comfortable, but I have a less slim butt and thighs than most climbers. 
I tie the spreader directly to the rope and still have room for a biner and split tail.
I do not think you should ever attach the climbing line to one lower D and the split tail to the other.


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## gumneck (Jun 22, 2007)

joesawer said:


> I use a double D saddle and a spreader makes it much more comfortable, but I have a less slim butt and thighs than most climbers.
> I tie the spreader directly to the rope and still have room for a biner and split tail.
> I do not think you should ever attach the climbing line to one lower D and the split tail to the other.



When you say double d, do you mean you have a D on each side and then two sliding D's in the middle? And you still use the spreader.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 23, 2007)

I use a rope snap locking primary line as I have come to trust them
over twenty years if I did use a biner it would be a thimble eye design
to prevent loading its axis in event of fall.


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## clearance (Jun 23, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> I use a rope snap locking primary line as I have come to trust them
> over twenty years if I did use a biner it would be a thimble eye design
> to prevent loading its axis in event of fall.



Rope snape, yes. The biner I sometimes use is a triple locking DMM Wales, and it is steel.


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## joesawer (Jun 23, 2007)

gumneck said:


> When you say double d, do you mean you have a D on each side and then two sliding D's in the middle? And you still use the spreader.



No sliding Ds. The Ds are fixed to the ends of the butt strap. They are desinged to both be fastened into the same rope snap. Due to my larger than average legs, for the upper Ds to be in the right place the Lower Ds really constrict my thighs without a spreader. 
There has been some study and discussion about the butt strap saddles causing hip joint problems with prolonged use. The baton (butt board) saddle has come about as a result. I tried one a few years ago and really liked it. It was like sitting in a chair. It may not be good for some one moving around a lot, doing a lot of pruning, but for big take downs it was the cats meow.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 23, 2007)

joesawer said:


> I do not think you should ever attach the climbing line to one lower D and the split tail to the other.



Really? I do it all the time on my pinnacle-makes it sweet if you have to walk through your rope.


As for a spreader, when i used a buttstrap without a bosun seat, i used to take two rope snaps, turn them in opposite directions and tie my rope to them.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 24, 2007)

clearance said:


> Rope snape, yes. The biner I sometimes use is a triple locking DMM Wales, and it is steel.


Does it have a captive eye? I had some bad buck straps just
cut the snaps off them and used them for snap works fine, one
of them did not lock the way I liked cleaned the sap off and put it
on a hand line. I also have a ladder snap but don't really like the
size of it unless I am throwing rope the only biner I have came on 
the flip line I ordered off baileys biner snap combo I like it beats
a buck strap for climbing large trees with spurs have a buck strap also
on my side for positioning to make cut and added security. I have climbed
without a snap too and that is probably the safest but definitely slowest
way.


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## Sassafras (Jul 11, 2007)

*biners or snaps or saddles*

I would like to throw out an overview of what i have read in this post
My personal preference, Petzl ball lock, on both sides, anchor and hitch. I like it, it is most efficent for me. Screw lock carabiners have been known to open or unscrew. Rope snaps are double action. I saw a demonstration of a rope snap manipulated in a D-ring on a saddle just held and twisted, it opened and came off the D immediately. (Enter plunge to death). Can it happen just that way while you are climbing, who's to say it can't. Take that for what it is worth. The ball locks have 3 distinct motions to open them. As for side loading a carabiner try some of the binding knots like buntline, anchor hitch, double fishermans knot, etc. You can even tie a larger eye bowline and girth hitch your biner. A larger eye splice can also be girth hiched. I am not positive but i think this is one of the new standards for carabiner use to prevent side loading. I will look into it.
A relaxing thought is the ratings on our equip and the relatively light loads a climber generates. As someone said earlier our equip is not designed for fall arrest merely suspension and positioning. When do we ever shock load our climbing equip? 
Its all rated to be way safer than it needs to be. But if anyone wants to open that can of worms, lets start a new thread.


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## ladder12 (Aug 3, 2007)

I used double locking steel rope snaps on one end of two5/8ths wire core braided flip lines in ourlarge fir and hemlock. I went to two in one lanyards using three aluminum carabiners to save weight and get past limbs faster--for a while I did. I kept looking down to check my lines and rigging just before I hung on it and kept finding a twisted and/or side loaded biner staring at me. That'll make your nipples hard, by Gar!! I use aluminum swivel rope snaps on the 2 in 1 now and keep the 18 foot wire core flipper for the occasional big fir. Biners just twist and side load--twist and side load--if you're going around and under and between very much. Rope snaps are so easy to open compared to the new biners.


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## Bermie (Aug 3, 2007)

Some of the Welsh (DMM/ISC) carabiners are manufactured specifically for arborists.
I was on course over there, we visited the actual factory and met the guy who started the firm, we got to see all the design, manufacture and testing areas.
He consulted directly with leading arborists, and designed the crabs to fit our specifications. 
I have one of their quadruple action crabs (it attaches my lanyard to my harness) and use the triple action ones on my bridge. They make aluminum and steel triple locks.
When you buy carabiners in the UK you get a certificate of conformity that ensures that what you buy has been designed and tested for the specific application of tree climbing,to the specific EN/CE standard.


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## Adkpk (Aug 4, 2007)

Quadruple locking biner. Can we see a pic of that, please?


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## newguy18 (Aug 4, 2007)

Adrpk said:


> Quadruple locking biner. Can we see a pic of that, please?



Yes i have seen triple action biners and of course my screwlocking biner but never heard of a quadruple locker.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 6, 2007)

Denny Moorehouse started Clog, DMM and now owns ISC. He knows how to make gear...

http://www.iscwales.com/

Here's a pic of Denny at his factory. He had his people put together a Mighty Mouse biner so that they could break test it for me. Pretty cool!


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## Bermie (Aug 7, 2007)

Yes, that's the guy! It was very interesting to visit the factory and have him show us around, nice to actually see where and how these things we trust our lives to are made!  
Give me some time and I'll post a pic of the quad locker.


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## newguy18 (Aug 7, 2007)

Does anybody use quick links or am I the only one?


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## ropensaddle (Aug 8, 2007)

Sassafras said:


> I would like to throw out an overview of what i have read in this post
> My personal preference, Petzl ball lock, on both sides, anchor and hitch. I like it, it is most efficent for me. Screw lock carabiners have been known to open or unscrew. Rope snaps are double action. I saw a demonstration of a rope snap manipulated in a D-ring on a saddle just held and twisted, it opened and came off the D immediately. (Enter plunge to death). Can it happen just that way while you are climbing, who's to say it can't. Take that for what it is worth. The ball locks have 3 distinct motions to open them. As for side loading a carabiner try some of the binding knots like buntline, anchor hitch, double fishermans knot, etc. You can even tie a larger eye bowline and girth hitch your biner. A larger eye splice can also be girth hiched. I am not positive but i think this is one of the new standards for carabiner use to prevent side loading. I will look into it.
> A relaxing thought is the ratings on our equip and the relatively light loads a climber generates. As someone said earlier our equip is not designed for fall arrest merely suspension and positioning. When do we ever shock load our climbing equip?
> Its all rated to be way safer than it needs to be. But if anyone wants to open that can of worms, lets start a new thread.


I am sorry but I am not buying it a locking snap failing like you say I have not had one fail me in 22 years. I read about biners failing and I think most failures are caused by people using the snap for bowline and climbing and damaging the mechanical locking features.


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