# what are the benefits of a top handle chain saw?



## voxac30dude (Nov 1, 2009)

im looking at buying 2 new saws a stihl ms440 for bigger stuff and a top handle saw for climbing work. what are the advantages of a top handle saw in the trees?


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## beowulf343 (Nov 1, 2009)

Top handled, usually smaller and lighter. The top handle gives you a better balance.

Some of us still prefer a rear handle in the tree though.


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## TreeW?rx (Nov 1, 2009)

They are much more compact that a standard saw which means that the bar wont be trying to chop off your ankle bone. Not only that, but when the need to use only one hand, (start fight here), comes up, you can use it comfortably.


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## clearance (Nov 1, 2009)

TreeWürx said:


> use only one hand, (start fight here)



You got 'er. An arborist who trains people, part of a well know Canadian training school, told me Stihl came up with the 020 to avoid repetetive strain injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but repetetive strain injuries didn't really come to be called such until well after the first 020. 

The handle is on top, so you can one hand, its wrong, I know, I know, but thats why, any other explanation is bs.


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## jomoco (Nov 1, 2009)

There was an actual American made climbsaw called a homelite super2, that had both rear and top handle triggers. I used them far longer than I should have because of that trigger arrangement and it's superb balance, and dirt cheap price at well under 200 bucks.

But the reality was that despite it's cool dual trigger design, was a gutless dog prone to rattling out of it's magnesium case and egging out the holes in them, compared to the 020's raw power it was a joke. But it was very handy to have that extra 4-5 inches of reach available to you by simply sliding back to the rear trigger on the same top handle.

It's a fairly unique climbsaw feature that can only be found on the older magnesium cased super2's.

The super2's design was pleasantly tear dropped to avoid snagging in the canopy.

My dream saw would be the super2's design housing an 020's raw power, all rubber mounted with the best anti-vibe available!

I think Stihl is ripe for losing their dominance of the climbsaw market they've enjoyed for so long now, and deservedly so, they are king for a reason.

I like their power, but hate their package box design, and needless complexities. Why cant they figure out a fuel and oil cap design that can be wiped clean with a simple rag?

jomoco


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## ozzy42 (Nov 1, 2009)

clearance said:


> The handle is on top, so you can one hand, its wrong, I know, I know, but thats why, any other explanation is bs.



:agree2:







jomoco said:


> There was an actual American made climbsaw called a homelite super2, that had both rear and top handle triggers. I used them far longer than I should have because of that trigger arrangement and it's superb balance, and dirt cheap price at well under 200 bucks.
> 
> But the reality was that despite it's cool dual trigger design, was a gutless dog prone to rattling out of it's magnesium case and egging out the holes in them, compared to the 020's raw power it was a joke. But it was very handy to have that extra 4-5 inches of reach available to you by simply sliding back to the rear trigger on the same top handle.
> 
> ...



I had quite a few of those when I first started out on my own .
I used to trim a lot of palms,and palms are very hard on a climb saw if you are debooting them and trimmung them up tight , IMO.

The HLs were cheap enough and just good enough for the job.
Would have been real nice if they had some extra grunt though.


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## outofmytree (Nov 2, 2009)

You will get a lot of "one handed use" answers to this question and a lot of dishonest answers too. Pound for pound, the 200t is the gutsiest top handle saw getting around atm and if you are going to one hand any saw, this is the one to do it with. Of course, you should always have both hands on the saw at all times............:blush:


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## WolverineMarine (Nov 2, 2009)

The top handles are more compact..easier to manuever..lighter for sure..well balanced..and for the "RARE" ocassion when you do need to one hand it..theres alot less chance of having an accident and ending up a peg leg..
I as well would like to see another manufacterer(IE..Husky) challenge the 200T for dominance..although I dont foresee it happening in the near future..but..a guy can dream..LOL


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## rbtree (Nov 2, 2009)

I'll take my muffler modded 338 and 2139T Jonsy over the 200T all day long. Long lasting, more torque and power, a bit lighter...and they start easily and are reliable...finally. It took Husqvarna 10 years to work all the bugs out.


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## jomoco (Nov 2, 2009)

I can't keep mufflers on any of my 200T's period. They always rattle loose, then eventually fracture into pieces.

The idiots at stihl need to take a closer look at two-stroke moto-x bikes of the past, and their unique pipe to head exhaust port connections, they were pliant, movable, the seal made by spring pressure in a seated cone, no bolts to rattle loose because of mismatched heat dissipation rates between two different types of metal.

Kind of an antivibe mounted muffler using only spring pressure to achieve a seal at the red hot exhaust port connection.

I think stihl is vulnerable alright, but not to a cheaper saw, but rather to an even more expensive high quality saw with features aimed specificly at the climbing arborist.

Anyone who removes trees for a living is not going to hesitate about spending a grand to own the very best climbsaw he can.

I know why my 200T's fall apart, it's because they're all I use in wood up to 28 inches dia with my 14 inch bars. I work them to their outer limits because I'm such a wuss about using bigger heavier saws up in the tree!

jomoco


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## Tree Pig (Nov 2, 2009)

The catch 22 thing is that before top handles existed tree guys still cut one handed when they had to and still do. Now that was some dangerous ####. I have on occasion cut with a rear handle with one hand and its crazy. Yeah maybe you shouldnt cut with one hand on any saw but one hand on a top handle is 1000 times safer then a rear handle.


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## TheLumberJack (Nov 2, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> im looking at buying 2 new saws a stihl ms440 for bigger stuff and a top handle saw for climbing work. what are the advantages of a top handle saw in the trees?



Shouldn't you know this already if you have your own tree service biz?




You're worrying me.


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## voxac30dude (Nov 2, 2009)

if any of you have seen the husqvarna web site
they have a top handle tree saw
http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/products/powerful-robust-saws/t435/


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## voxac30dude (Nov 2, 2009)

btw im just starting my own business. im working with one other guy an i live on maui and alot of the tools out here are old and out dated.


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## TheLumberJack (Nov 2, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> btw im just starting my own business. im working with one other guy an i live on maui and alot of the tools out here are old and out dated.



Like I said I was just worried a little bit about all of the 'newbie' questions all at once...starting my own biz and need insurance post...what's a top handle saw for...

Just trying to help. Good luck.

192 treated me fine for a couple years until I had $600 for the 200. 
Forget about that Huskie.


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## ozzy42 (Nov 2, 2009)

voxac30dude said:


> if any of you have seen the husqvarna web site
> they have a top handle tree saw
> http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/products/powerful-robust-saws/t435/





> Engine specification Cylinder displacement 35.2 cc
> Power output 2 hp
> Idling speed 2900 rpm
> Maximum power speed 10000 rpm
> ...


.



> MS 192 T C-E Chain Saw
> 
> DISPLACEMENT
> 30.1 cc (1.8 cu. in.)
> ...










> MS 200 T Chain Saw
> 
> DISPLACEMENT
> 35.2 cc (2.15 cu. in.)
> ...


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## jomoco (Nov 2, 2009)

I actually like the mid-range pro line of husky's, from the 254xp, 262xp to the 365 special, 372 and 394, they all had superior air filtrationing than any of the more powerful stihls.

Just try to slick a nasty date palm with any midsized stihl, I guarantee a clogged airfilter before you run out of gas. But a husky's air injection filtration system allows you 4 tanks of gas before losing power and bogging from a clogged airfilter.

Husky has a better range of quality lightweight midrange saws as well, none of them as strong as their stihl counterparts with clean filters mind you, but sometimes your saw needs to perform longer than a hundred yard dash, and that's where husky nips them in the bud being more dependable and durable through better design.

If husky could design a kickbutt climbsaw and take the lead from stihl's ms200t? The rest of their market share would grow substantially as a result.

I'd like to see an integral fixed point saddle attachment mechanism on the saw's rear termination handle, so I can clip it onto my saddle's fixed point receptor, with one hand, from any position, with my eyes closed.

Being able to smoothly get rid of your saw prior to taking a rigging ride while catching wood and heads can be crucial at times, and chainsaw lanyards don't guarantee an unscathed chainsaw or operator after the ride's over.

The ms200t's lanyard attachment ring has got to be the most pathetic attempt ever at a quick and efficient means of quickly attaching their saw to your saddle. It forms a perfect T too, greatly enhancing it's annoying habit of getting caught on branches while being pulled back up in the tree after re-fueling thank you.

Husky's design team needs to get busy and find some stock ponies and up their design game along an eliptical tear drop, non-snagging configuration.

I'm kinda sick of fractured aluminum 200t mufflers anyway.

jomoco


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## treevet (Nov 2, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I
> 
> that's where husky nips them in the bud being more dependable and durable through better design.



horseshat



> If husky could design a kickbutt climbsaw and take the lead from stihl's ms200t? The rest of their market share would grow substantially as a result.



Since Stihl came on the US market It's always been about whether it is worth being a cheapskate and buying a second rate piece of garbage to save money or springing for the Stihl and having a pro saw.




> I'd like to see an integral fixed point saddle attachment mechanism on the saw's rear termination handle, so I can clip it onto my saddle's fixed point receptor, with one hand, from any position, with my eyes closed.
> 
> The ms200t's lanyard attachment ring has got to be the most pathetic attempt ever at a quick and efficient means of quickly attaching their saw to your saddle. It forms a perfect T too, greatly enhancing it's annoying habit of getting caught on branches while being pulled back up in the tree after re-fueling thank you.



The attachment point is just fine with a screw link and a swivel snap and can be one handed attached with eyes closed

If you would send the saw down through an open path it will pull back up through an open path. When you get some more experience you might figure that out.



> Husky's design team needs to get busy and find some stock ponies and up their design game along an eliptical tear drop, non-snagging configuration.



There you go again, inventin' some useful stuff. Add some more unneeded weight and Husky will sell a boat load of em. Tree companies pooled together to design this saw and they did a great job. 



> I'm kinda sick of fractured aluminum 200t mufflers anyway.



????? How you doin that? Again get some more experience and you might stop dropping a highly valuable tool

jomoco[/QUOTE]


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## Philbert (Nov 2, 2009)

clearance said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but repetetive strain injuries didn't really come to be called such until well after the first 020.



'Repetitive strain injuries' have been around since cavemen repetitively smacked things with clubs. Just more awareness and newer names for them now.

Philbert


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## oldirty (Nov 2, 2009)

i love it when the old dogs bark at each other. lol


200t is the best saw ever. i gave my buddy my 338 ,with a modded muffer btw, to use. he does a tiny bit of tree work these days. would i let anyone borrow my 200t? #### no.


first words out of his mouth a couple days later. "nose heavy"

them saws suuuuuck.


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## jomoco (Nov 2, 2009)

treevet said:


> ????? How you doin that? Again get some more experience and you might stop dropping a highly valuable tool



Well TV old man it's like this see, I use the snot right out of my 200t's see, to the point they get real hot see, yeah.

The problem developes because both the barrel and the muffler are aluminum, while the fasteners that hold the two parts together are steel, the bolts and helicoil inserts in the barrel's exhaust port. And because these two different types of metals expand and contract under extreme heat at different rates, things tend to work themselves loose over time on the 200t.

Now a frail old codger such as yourself has probably never gotten a 200t up to operating temps much less actually heated the saw up any! So it comes as no surprise that all of your 200t's are all shiny and new with that barely used aspect to them.

Where as my 200t's look just awful, with holes blown through the plastic bottom that houses my poor fractured aluminum mufflers, it's just awful TV.

I'm sure none of my saws are worthy of even being seen on your job sites and embarrassing your professional aura in front of your high end clients.

Maybe if I kin get certified like you someday, I'll finally be smart enough tu figger out why me mufflers is cracken intu pieces parts TV!

jomoco


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## clearance (Nov 2, 2009)

Philbert said:


> 'Repetitive strain injuries' have been around since cavemen repetitively smacked things with clubs. Just more awareness and newer names for them now.
> 
> Philbert



I know, thats why I said what I said, now, tell me why Stihl made the 020 with the handle on top.


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## ozzy42 (Nov 2, 2009)

treevet said:


> horseshat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]



jomoco said:


> Well TV old man it's like this see, I use the snot right out of my 200t's see, to the point they get real hot see, yeah.
> 
> The problem developes because both the barrel and the muffler are aluminum, while the fasteners that hold the two parts together are steel, the bolts and helicoil inserts in the barrel's exhaust port. And because these two different types of metals expand and contract under extreme heat at different rates, things tend to work themselves loose over time on the 200t.
> 
> ...





Repped both for the pure entertainment value



Now proceed with the show pleaseopcorn:


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## BlackenedTimber (Nov 2, 2009)

Stihl made the 020 with the handle on top to make my life easier and to piss of ANSI, OSHA, and evey other alphabet-soup organization. I am not sure which of the above aspects of their design is more valuable to me.


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## matdand (Nov 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> I'd like to see an integral fixed point saddle attachment mechanism on the saw's rear termination handle, so I can clip it onto my saddle's fixed point receptor, with one hand, from any position, with my eyes closed.
> 
> Being able to smoothly get rid of your saw prior to taking a rigging ride while catching wood and heads can be crucial at times, and chainsaw lanyards don't guarantee an unscathed chainsaw or operator after the ride's over.



Check it out, this is what we use. It works pretty good and keeps the saw nice and snug at your hip.


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## Blakesmaster (Nov 3, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> Stihl made the 020 with the handle on top to make my life easier and to piss of ANSI, OSHA, and evey other alphabet-soup organization. I am not sure which of the above aspects of their design is more valuable to me.



Tried to rep you for that one, BT.


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## ozzy42 (Nov 3, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Tried to rep you for that one, BT.



I got him for ya


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## outofmytree (Nov 3, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> Stihl made the 020 with the handle on top to make my life easier and to piss of ANSI, OSHA, and evey other alphabet-soup organization. I am not sure which of the above aspects of their design is more valuable to me.



Repped. My kids were looking at me all weird as I rolled around the floor but you gotta do what we do to laugh at our jokes.....


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## treevet (Nov 3, 2009)

ya know if you are a small fish in a small pond, somebody like say......Jomoco..., you can talk all kind of heavy saw use and you look at them and they ain't got sheeeat. But if you are one of the big fish in a big pond your whole day usually involves hours of onehanding a top handle saw.

The last two days I have done six thousand dollars of removals that involved 6 to 8 hours of non stop one handing. Slicing, chunking, jumping, holding and tossing, pushing into open spaces, etc.. A guy once told me it reminded of sitting at the table at Benihana's and watching the chef. No problem with the law cause a private company owner is not under any OSHA jurisdiction. In 40 plus years of one handing I have just 2 nicks on the non saw hand that I just licked the blood off wrapped it in a piece of t shirt and opted to not deal with the hospital and went back to work.

If you want to have high production and own lots of stuff then one handing is the only way to go. If you want to be like, say, .....Jomoco, who can afford to take 3 whole days to install 3 cables in a clients tree, then that is the way you choose to live. Nothing wrong either way./

It is just that simple.


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## treeslayer (Nov 3, 2009)

oldirty said:


> i love it when the old dogs bark at each other. lol
> 
> 
> 200t is the best saw ever. i gave my buddy my 338 ,with a modded muffer btw, to use. he does a tiny bit of tree work these days. would i let anyone borrow my 200t? #### no.
> ...



A 338 cut half my fingers off once. Nose heavy? :censored: I got proof.


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## jomoco (Nov 3, 2009)

She breeches again, from down deep in the vast ocean, bursting into the air!

Thar she blows! The biggest fish in the pond!

Note the TV'ish aspect of it's mighty flukes!

jomoco


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## oldirty (Nov 3, 2009)

treevet said:


> But if you are one of the big fish in a big pond your whole day usually involves hours of onehanding a top handle saw.
> 
> The last two days I have done six thousand dollars of removals that involved 6 to 8 hours of non stop one handing. Slicing, chunking, jumping, holding and tossing, pushing into open spaces, etc.. A guy once told me it reminded of sitting at the table at Benihana's and watching the chef. No problem with the law cause a private company owner is not under any OSHA jurisdiction. In 40 plus years of one handing I have just 2 nicks on the non saw hand that I just licked the blood off wrapped it in a piece of t shirt and opted to not deal with the hospital and went back to work.
> 
> ...




some one rep this man please.

howl at that moon big dooooooog! 


that just got me fired up. cant wait to get back to work tomorrow man! wooooo!


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## oldirty (Nov 3, 2009)

treeslayer said:


> A 338 cut half my fingers off once. Nose heavy? :censored: I got proof.



dude. i got the same scars man. i hate that saw.

edit: well i didnt get any fingies cut off but stitched up for sure.


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## treevet (Nov 3, 2009)

Yeah, guys, it's nice to have good tools for our kind of work. 

Just imagine showing up at a job like say,....uhhhh.....Jomoco.....and ya gotta cut down the big redwood. Brushy gets out and says, "what saw we gonna use today boss?" Well they both walk around the old Yota and look in the bed.

They don't see anything at first cause the old 10 year old tired 020 is laying on its side it is so tired from cutting down the last redwood so it is kinda hiding under the tarp.

Brushy says, "boss, all we got is the 10 year old burnt out 020 we use all day every day with palm fronds stuck in the filter, a burnt out and cracked exhaust from some highly technical mismatched metal issues.

"Well get it out dammit Brushy. We'll get er done....we always do. Mebbee someday if things are good we can find another of those high quality Super 2 Homelites at a yard sale and we can move up in the world like Treevet.


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## oldirty (Nov 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> She breeches again, from down deep in the vast ocean, bursting into the air!
> 
> Thar she blows! The biggest fish in the pond!
> 
> ...



hey jo.

just read that article in the magazine. good stuff. cool solution you 2 came up with for the cabling. i recognized the pines! 

congrats man


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## jomoco (Nov 3, 2009)

oldirty said:


> hey jo.
> 
> just read that article in the magazine. good stuff. cool solution you 2 came up with for the cabling. i recognized the pines!
> 
> congrats man



Thanks OD, one day I'm going to a big fish like TV, get certified, worship shigo, have a whole library of the latest arboricultural literature, and make 6 grand every two days!

But first I gots tu cash in my aluminum cans, so's I kin buy me a new muffler fur my climbin saw, see?

jomoco


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## oldirty (Nov 3, 2009)

whatever it takes bro. lol.


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## jomoco (Nov 4, 2009)

Heck, alls it takes is a big bushel of aluminum cans, a shopping cart, and sheer will power!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnu7RQVZ1Lw

This happens to every stinkin 200T I buy, which is about 7 now.

jomoco


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## treevet (Nov 4, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Heck, alls it takes is a big bushel of aluminum cans, a shopping cart, and sheer will power!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnu7RQVZ1Lw
> 
> ...



Telling evidence to be sure. When are the Academy Awards for Scientific Documentary anyhow? Well done! Bravo! 

I see the entire Arboricultural community discontinuing use of this tool when Geraldo airs this piece.


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## voxac30dude (Nov 6, 2009)

i just saw some good prices on solo and echo tree saws. are they worth the money?


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## BlackenedTimber (Nov 6, 2009)

Standard AS Response to the above question:

The Stihl MS200T is the best top-handle climbing saw. period. And I happen to agree.

Although the 2 hunge (as OD calls it...) will run you about 6 Benjamins, you get what you pay for. I have run alot of echos, and I think they suck compared to the 200. As for the solo, I have not run it. 

All in all, there are alot of climbing saws available to the consumer aside from the MS200T, but you will be hard-pressed to find one that will compete with the 200, regardless of price. Most all AS members will agree with this statement.

Of course, yet can buy what you want, but if I were you, I would either gat the 192, which runs about half the price of the 200, if your only climbing part-time, or save up the cash and just get the 200. You will not regret the 200.

T


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## B_Turner (Nov 6, 2009)

One thing lousy about the 338/9 is the air filter in the front. Gets dirty much faster than my other small saws.


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## jomoco (Nov 6, 2009)

The benefits of a top handle saw are as follows, used judiciously, they save alot of elbow grease, yu know wear and tear?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8bFWsC7nNE

I'm spoiling the ground crew obviously!

Thank God it's Friday!

jomoco


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## ozzy42 (Nov 6, 2009)

Nice little video but I thought Micheal J Fox was up there for minute.LOL


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