# Working down a spar



## heartland (Jan 15, 2003)

Greetings,

I'm new to climbing and have a few questions. If this is not the right forum for newbie questions, please advise so I don't clutter things up.

In the meantime, here is my question: When working down a spar without stubs, I understand how to secure the running bowline to the top of the spar. What is not clear is how the lifeline is connected to the saddle: Can a figure 8 be used here?

Continuing on, let's say you decide to work down the spar using "cut and throw". How do you move the bowline to a lower position on the spur? I realize that the bowline can be loosened with the running end of the rope and thereby lowered. The part I'm uncertain about is how to secure myself while that is happening... seems pretty risky to depend soley on my lanyard and climbers at that time.

Hope that makes sense. Any insight is appreciated. And again, I apologize up front if my newbie questions belong on another forum.

Thanks in advance


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## treeman82 (Jan 15, 2003)

I personally just work my way down on my spikes and 2 lanyards. Depending on the diameter of the spar, I may wrap my lanyard around the spar for added security. Another way to do what you are talking about is to choke off on the spar with a running bowline and then use your split tail... however you have to watch out for that if you should need to bail out. The new thing is the cambium saver lanyard. This will choke off on the spar should you need to bail out for whatever reason, and I would assume is fairly mobile in the tree when positioning.


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## Stumper (Jan 15, 2003)

Heartland, Welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place. You can find a ton of info by doing searches in this forum. By way of answer to your question. There are many safe ways to rig your lines while blocking down a spar on gaffs. I doubt that anyone here is using a fig 8 in there set up though. The simplest way to secure your self from falling in case you should gaff out is simply to make a full wrap on the spar with your lanyard. "Deadmanned in" in this way you will not slide down the spar-the 360* wrap of rope will lock on the trunk. You should definitely be double tied. If you adopt a split tail system for your lifeline it is very easy to use it as a second lanyard. For quick descent without your gaffs and no stubs you will need a friction saver or some sort of mechanical tie in point. Personally I do not rig such a system while blocking down a spar but I do have the tools on my belt (slings and 'biners) with which to improvise such should I need it. If you are now thoroughly confused try searching for any unfamiliar terms. You will find a wealth of info. Someone else will probably weigh in soon if they haven't already while I was typing.


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## Stumper (Jan 15, 2003)

Yep! 82 wins the "fastest fingers "award.


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## treeman82 (Jan 15, 2003)

I do try.


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## ORclimber (Jan 16, 2003)

What the other guys said and when using fliplines and hooks make sure your fliplines are level or angled down away from you so you don't accidentally cut yourself out of the tree. I always use steel core fliplines when chunking out a spar for piece of mind, unless I'm working around power lines. Also make sure your ground help has your back and will get your attention if your cutting toward your flipline.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 16, 2003)

Yup, there are many ways to tie in while chunking down a spar. I also use two lanyards (or my lanyard and then my lifeline choked around the trunk like a lanyard). Like ORclimber said, keep your lanyard low enough to not get cut. I use my lanyard for support about waist high and choke my lifeline around the spar a couple inches lower for backup. God forbid, if my lanyard ever gets cut AND I kick out I could only slip a few inches before my lifeline would catch me.

I don't use the running bowline on the spar until I'm ready to descend and drop the spar from the ground. I do not use a running bowline for life support while blocking down the spar while I'm still off the ground.


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## heartland (Jan 16, 2003)

How do you "choke the lifeline"?


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## Graeme (Jan 16, 2003)

Tim 

Grab it realy tight and hold it for a count of 50


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 16, 2003)

Graeme your not supposed to tell how we make True Blue, with your Samson strength!

i think that a round turn, rather than just slapping lifeline around the spar as an ordinary lanyard gives 'choke'. With a split tail climbing system, you can have a huge adjustable lanyard, this gives ya enough line to loop around the spar. A typical lanyard, attatches as a 'basket' (with 2 legs of support) formation in sling terminology, a running bowline would be a choke that trades off strength loss (with one leg of support, as in sling), for a choking grab, powered and thereby naturally adjusted to the weight, by the weight itself . A round turn basket formation combines both strength and choking grab on the spar at a cost of more line, which is now available with the huge lifeline/lanyard. The round turn chokes the spar, dead manning you into place, so if you black out all at once even, it has you positively pasted in place. Sometimes i have this loop as low as my knees, no chance of cutting it there! Then that strategy also leaves some slack, for less adjustmeant before enabling repositioning.

I would leave my lanyard high as possible to keep me close to the spar for easiest working, uncldinng as much 'sit' as possible, somwtimes ysing font D('s) for lanyard; and have it too adjustable, even if an ordinary lanyard gets an added friction hitch with karab etc. But positively clear of the saw, like it was my only attatchment point. Thus giving a failsafe setup, for when you start that saw, your chances are akin to what the drill seargeant screamed to the newbies/booties in GI Jane...

"....You're going to war, always have a backup, 2 is 1, and 1 is none!...."

In repositioning, you might take your lanyard, and simply let it slide down on top of your lifeline/lanyard or disconnect the lanyard from one side. Sometimes on even and smoother spars i can just kinda climb down on my spurs while shaking the lifeline/lanyard with my hips a bit here and there to slide the lifeline/lanyard smoothly down, yet still in a deadman position for total attatchmeant (yeah i know, not attatch-meant) in case of surprise. Other times i might hold the choke open with both hands as i reposition in flipline/lanyard style. Both strategies also leave enough slack for working over stobs etc. The lifeline/lanyard is usually more time consuming to adjust, redo than lanyard; so that i try to minimize that with slack and moving lifeline/lanyard whole and adj/redo lanyard more as an option. 



> _Originally posted by heartland _
> *
> 
> Continuing on, let's say you decide to work down the spar using "cut and throw". How do you move the bowline to a lower position on the spur? I realize that the bowline can be loosened with the running end of the rope and thereby lowered. The part I'm uncertain about is how to secure myself while that is happening... seems pretty risky to depend soley on my lanyard and climbers at that time.
> ...



i don't think that you'd be moving down far enough for that, especially with these tecniques, especially working smaller chunks. With an extra line some do something like that with a remote release on the bowline loop, to descnd 10' etc., using it for travel, cutting the face and lacing up etc., just make sure ya pull the bowline choke open and sliding down that support line before backcutting! That can really help in putting a nice face in a larger/harder to position/ cut spar. But, their are some reservations, on single line descent, especially over distance on some friction hitches, as in a single line descent with lifeline choked by a runing bowline in it's own tail.


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## mikecross23 (Jan 16, 2003)

I use a long loop runner and biner choked around the spar and clipped in to my front D rings for back up fall protection. Climb the tree normal w/ gaffs and lanyard, when I'm ready to start cutting, I choke the tree w/ the loop runner, clip in and leave it low and out of the way w/ a little slack in it. When you need to move up or down, just open up the choked loop runner w/ the slack and slide it up or down. It also can acts as a second lanyard and gives me the peace of mind that I will not fall. I don't like taking an extra wrap w/ my lanyard b/c it's hard for me to keep both ends the same lenght and i have a harder time getting it to open up and slide up or down. When ready to come down I choke the tree w/ a running bowline and come down on my figure 8.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 16, 2003)

Double flipline with one set down farther, wrapped around the spar.
flipline and climbing line used in the above configuration
Tie-in to adjacent tree
useing ckoked adjustable friction saver as shown in tha Sherrill catalog
[/list=1] 







This is the best way for rescue in case of injury, weather self or assisted rescue. By using a single connection, you will also take the saddle out of the loop in case of barberschair


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## ORclimber (Jan 16, 2003)

A good rule of thumb for flipline adjustment to have the most balance is to be just far enough from the trunk that if you stick your arm out to the trunk with a clenched fist your knuckles brush the bark. This doesn't work on skinny stuff or leaners. 


Angling that flipline up is risky. How do you know the flipline isn't hung up on a stub or on uneven bark. If the wood is big enough you can't see the other side of the spar by leaning to one side you'd have to walk around and check every time. What if you just hit a nail and your saw is dishing.


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## tshanefreeman (Jan 16, 2003)

Heartland,

Everyone else has yet again done a great job of showing you all the safe and practical ways of working down a spar............... so I won't comment on this.

However, you were talking about tying off with a running bowline and coming down with a figure-8.........

When I'm working down and have reached the point where I feel comfortable dropping the spar, I will tie on a tag line, typically with a clove hitch backed up with two half hitches or a running bowline. I then rig up my figure-8 to the same line that is to be used as the tag, thus allowing me to quickly decend out of the tree. Therefore, I kill two birds with one stone. As a sidenote, I feel that the figure-8 should always hang from a climbers belt, this way if an emergency should ever arise, the climber is one step in the right direction for a quick and safe decent! But unless I'm recreationally footlocking or doing the above mentioned decent, my figure-8 seldomly gets used.................for there is the potential that you could still drop if the tail were let loose.


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## treeman82 (Jan 16, 2003)

Shane, while I hate to admit it... I am with you on descending on my rigging line. I don't do it all the time, but if I am working with a 5/8" double braid line which is in good condition I will use that instead of my 1/2" climbing line in conjunction with my figure 8. I also always keep a figure 8 on my saddle, it's on the very back though.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jan 16, 2003)

Now we're telling newbies that it's alright to climb on a rigging line???  

heartdude, 
If you are fairly new to climbing, and you want to get old climbling, develop SAFE working habits and stick to them, even if it takes a few seconds(or minutes) to set up. Don't ever climb on rigging lines. 

One trick I saw performed removing a spar, was to tie your climbing line to the top of the spar with a running bowline, then use a munter hitch or figure 8 just below your climbing hitch. This takes most of the load off the hitch and allows it to run smoothly.
Being secured to the top of the spar makes it easy to get your lanyard set up properly, move the lowering block and lines, and cut a notch.
You can also leave a long tail on the bowline, long enough to reach from the next position, to make it easier to loosen. If you are dropping a 6 foot chunk, why not leave a 3 foot tail?


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## Eric E. (Jan 16, 2003)

When working a spar I prefer to have an escape route to the ground. This would be very helpful in case of rescue as JPS pointed out. The two attachment points are for added saftey but what happens if a bad accident occurs? With some of the methods mentioned a rescue could be very difficult. Ever think how difficult it would be to get an injured climber down when they are hanging on a lanyard? How are you going to lower an injured climber? How do you cut a steelcore lanyard if needed during a rescue? There are many other questions to think about.

I remember years ago a climber in Boston, hung inverted from his lanyard for a few hours before the fire dept. could get him down. I believe there was injury from hanging that long but, To make things worse when he inverted the harness pulled his pants down to his knees. Underwear included! Worse yet it was winter on a busy street with lots of observers. 

Think about how a rescue would go if you are seriously injured or unconscious. 

Don't get caught with your pants down.


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## TREETX (Jan 16, 2003)

There are trees in Plano??


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## heartland (Jan 16, 2003)

Well, there are trees in Plano - but not big ones by ya'lls standards. They are good trees for me cause I'm new to all this. Haven't climbed into anything too intimidating yet. Good to have a healthy fear of things though


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## Kevin (Jan 16, 2003)

Tim;
Do you have any good reference material to read other than the forum?


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## heartland (Jan 16, 2003)

This is what I have wrt reference material:

-I have viewed some of the Arbor Master videos series
-I have the Tree Climbers Handbook
-I am studying the ISA Certification Guide (albeit, slowly)
-I have a couple knot books

I attended the Climbing and Sawing class by Arbor Master last OCT.... it was down at the A&M campus.


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## Kevin (Jan 17, 2003)

Another good read is Jerry Beranek's _The Fundamentals of General Tree Work_.


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## TREETX (Jan 17, 2003)

The Tree Climber's Companion is a really good staple read.

No really tall trees here either. I hear some guys saying "I was in an 80 ft tree the other day and ......" 

That is funny because there are only 2 trees here that tall. I can think of a quite few fifty footers that have 120 foot plus spread.

I thought there was a really tall tree here because my 120' XTC from Fresco didn't touch the ground. Knowing there was no way I was at 120'+, I measured the rope - 75'!!! Called fresco and they sent the remainder. To me that is like ordering 120' of rope and getting 120 one foot sections .

I have never worked in Plano and don't know it all but at the same time, I can't see a big need for spiking and getting down spars. What type of trees? 
Again, I have never worked there.


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## Tim Walsh (Jan 17, 2003)

FYI

ANSI Z133.1 -2000


7.2.8 Arborists shall use a second point of attachment (work positioning lanyard or double crotched rope) when operating a chain saw in a tree, unless the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second point of attachment while operating chain saws in that particular situation.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 17, 2003)

> Angling that flipline up is risky. How do you know the flipline isn't hung up on a stub or on uneven bark. If the wood is big enough you can't see the other side of the spar by leaning to one side you'd have to walk around and check every time. What if you just hit a nail and your saw is dishing.



I'm not saying angle it up, but have the second significantly lower. IMO having them at the same level removes the redundancy factor the ANSI paragraph Tim quotes requires. 

In Origon, you obviously have much bigger treees then we do, but i always check my flipline to sww it is not inline with my cut. On bigger wood I will ask the ground to visualy check it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 17, 2003)

Might add-
Don Blair's "Arborist Equipment",
Free Sherrill Catalog,
Husky $8 video,
Free Samson Arborist Rope Guide for on line viewing or goto DownLoad Samson Catalogs for Offline Viewing & Refrence, R. Click Manual Link, Choose Save-Target-As .
Free Stihl chainsaw safety manual with each saw.
Free- This site is tops, you could assemble a lot with just the search on specific topics.

Advanced Topics, now or later:

Doug Dent "Proffessional Timber Falling",
Padget/Smith "On Rope",
Cyrus Day"Art of Knotting and Splicing",


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 17, 2003)

Oregon's free chain and bar "bible".


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 17, 2003)

i have not used the FS, but can see where JP's et al; system would be safer, and easier for the reasons he states (as well as others helping); the 'short comings' would be another piece of gear to hoist; and perhaps a spar size that was outside of the range of the device.

Here is the Oregon Chain Bible i believe he refers too. Kinda a nice list that we could compile of free and other resources, as a standard refrence for all here and to come.

View Oregon Manual Online 

DownLoad Oregon Manual for Offline Viewing & Refrence, R. Click Manual Link, Choose Save-Target-As

Also adding:OSHA Loggers Glossary - OSHA 

Also links to other OHSA logging stuff from there. The user guide link takes you to a small course. Here is a page from it.


OSHA Results of Incorrect Felling


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 17, 2003)

That is the book, you can email them and they will send several copies out free of charge. That way you can give them to every member of the crew.


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## ORclimber (Jan 17, 2003)

knocked down a dead fir for a developer today and paid attention to what I was doing thinking about this thread. Piecing out a spar is a very repetitous act and it would be easy to get sloppy and make a mistake if you don't have safe habits. I'll be making changes to the way I do it after 9 years. I'll keep the 2 steel core fliplines but add gibbs. That way my backup will be choked around the tree with the saddle out of the loop like JPS was talking about. In an emergency(or lunch) situation either flipline could be choked around the tree to make a false crotch to be used for repelling/lowering by me or rescuers. I'll also add a figure 8. Then I'll have to post on the how heavy is your saddle thread.

I was told when I started climbing that a chainsaw will cut a steel core flipline in an emergency situation. I've never tested that, but probably should since that's how I climb. I've also been told a climbing crew should have a set of gear laid out explicitly for aerial rescue and train for it at least once a month. If a chainsaw can't cut steel core then my crew should theoretically have a pair of bolt cutters on the emergency saddle. A rescuer could use the emergency saddle to climb the spare, hang a false crotch above me attach the spare safety climbing rope to my saddle, attach their own climbing rope to my second, cut my first flipline with the bolt cutters if they can't unsnap it and guide me down while the ground man lowers me. Or they could do it a half dozen other ways.

The reality is I don't own a second saddle and my 2 groundmen were from labor ready and couldn't start a chainsaw let alone perform an aerial rescue. Until I have enough work to hire an experienced crew I'll have to go with the philosophy that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


Hey Treespyder maybe you could freeze dry some of that live oak and send it out to Origon, Florida can't need it and it'll go for $165 a cord out here.


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## heartland (Jan 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TREETX _
> *I have never worked in Plano and don't know it all but at the same time, I can't see a big need for spiking and getting down spars. What type of trees?
> Again, I have never worked there. *



We don't have big trees here in DFW: at least, not by most of the guys on this forums standards. Big to me would be 50+, and that is plenty since I'm still new at all this.

I spike on removals. The only time I've come close to a "real" spar is on a Cedar tree (by "real", I mean totally straight with no stubs). Cedars grow straight like pines and tend to have higher branches: so, you can end up with a spar. On that particular tree, I had a long spar with a few stubs up top. I left one of the stubs a bit longer so my friction saver could sit in the crotch. After reading all these discussions, I now realize that this is not the safest practice. That is why I'm asking about better and safer ways of doing it.

TREETX, where u located?


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