# Decisions... Echo vs Stihl.



## bootboy (Nov 3, 2011)

So I've been doing my homework and I've narrowed it down a few choices for a new saw. Echo cs550p vs Stihl ms290. Both weigh about the same and run 20" bars and .325 chain.
In the 3/8 category I'm stuck between the cs600p and the ms311. The Stihls run from $15-50 less. But echo's 5 year warranty is sweetening the deal. Anyone experience with these saws and care to weigh in?

P.s. New guy here...


----------



## Hedgerow (Nov 3, 2011)

Do not be afraid of the echo saws... I've heard good things about the 550... If reliability is what you're after, the echo's fit that bill... Happy hunting...:msp_thumbup:


----------



## JimmyT (Nov 3, 2011)

bootboy, both the MS311 and CS600p are nice saws. I would go to your local dealers and test drive them. Also take a look at the Makita DCS-6410.
MS 311 STIHL Chainsaw – STIHL USA
ECHO CS-600P 59.8cc Professional Cutting System Chain Saw - ECHO USA | ECHO USA


----------



## jus2fat (Nov 3, 2011)

The most foremost thing I will say is...Don't Fall In Love With Echo's 5-Year Warranty..!!

Having the warranty and having the saw fixed under warranty are two different things.
My local dealer went out of business because Echo would NOT cover warranty repairs.
They always came up with some excuse as to why the warranty claim wasn't valid.
Now no one in this area will start-up an Echo dealership (servicing dealership that is) 
knowing what happened to the last one. The dealer was a good guy and did his best..!!
But bad new travels fast in a small region and loss of sales killed him. Echo's fault...not his..!!

I am not bashing Echo products at all...just the warranty coverage..and for 5 years..??

I have an Echo trimmer that is 20+ years old and still runs reasonably well considering it's age.

Sooo..I would recommend Stihl or Husqvarna...as they stand behind their warranty..!!

Just my 2¢ worth..

J2F


----------



## Hedgerow (Nov 3, 2011)

jus2fat said:


> The most foremost thing I will say is...Don't Fall In Love With Echo's 5-Year Warranty..!!
> 
> Having the warranty and having the saw fixed under warranty are two different things.
> My local dealer went out of business because Echo would NOT cover warranty repairs.
> ...



Warranty??? What the hell's a warranty??? Them are out the window as soon as I punch the guts out of the muffler!!!:hell_boy:


----------



## deezelman (Nov 3, 2011)

jus2fat said:


> The most foremost thing I will say is...Don't Fall In Love With Echo's 5-Year Warranty..!!
> 
> Having the warranty and having the saw fixed under warranty are two different things.
> My local dealer went out of business because Echo would NOT cover warranty repairs.
> ...



i would have to agree echos warranty isnt worth the paper its printed on. i had a cs360t motor locked up echo said it was fuel related even thought we used the same fuel in all our saws. that being said id still say echo. i really like saw just not how they handle things


----------



## Bob Wright (Nov 3, 2011)

Been running Echo's for 34 years and never needed the warranty...Bob


----------



## jus2fat (Nov 3, 2011)

Bob Wright said:


> Been running Echo's for 34 years and never needed the warranty...Bob



Bob..(and I do respect you..!!)..come on..!!
You're suggesting you've never had a warrant-able problem in 34 years..Hard to believe..!!
(unless you've been using the same saw for 34 years and thus there was NO warranty..??)
Are you actually a lawyer or politician..?? Just messin" with ya..!! 
I expect you just do your own repairs...simply put.

Do the dealers in your area have problems with the Echo warranty coverage..??

I hope "mountainlake" will add to this...as I think he is an Echo dealer or affiliated with one.

Again...NOT trying to bash Echo...just saying the 5 yr. warranty is "questionable" at best.
No other mainline manufacturer offers more than 2 years...so Echo at 5 years..??
I'm just saying that folks buy on 5-yr. warranty "dream"...get "skanked"...leave Echo forever..!!

Bes2ya Bob..!! and hello "mountainlake" should you arrive..(and I respect you as well..!!)

J2F


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 3, 2011)

Of all the saws I owned, the only ones that needed service under warranty were stihls. That was three out of the seven stihls. I don't know what Echo charges for parts, but I do know that stihl parts can be spendy.


----------



## miking (Nov 3, 2011)

I haven't had an issue yet with my Echos and I use them commercially where the warranty is for 2 years, not 5. If it's a occasional use saw, it should go 5 years without an issue no prob. Remember, a warranty covers their mistakes with it, not yours. By the way, my 600 absolutely buries my helpers 311 with chips.


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 3, 2011)

Bob Wright said:


> Been running Echo's for 34 years and never needed the warranty...Bob



Right but you do have to have basic knowidge on how to fix saws. steve.


----------



## o8f150 (Nov 3, 2011)

i ran the crap out of a cs-370 for a few years,, never had 1 minute trouble,, if its going to be used occasionally the echo is a good buy


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 3, 2011)

jus2fat said:


> Bob..(and I do respect you..!!)..come on..!!
> You're suggesting you've never had a warrant-able problem in 34 years..Hard to believe..!!
> (unless you've been using the same saw for 34 years and thus there was NO warranty..??)
> Are you actually a lawyer or politician..?? Just messin" with ya..!!
> ...





I'm starthing to like to like you you 2fat, I've been runnig Echo saws for 10 years now and have had to to replace 1 AV mount for $12 on my CS6700 . Other than that I've a quite a few saws off Ebay burnt up due to lean tuning real cheap , the only reason I got inside one to find how good or bad the quality was. I am the last person you want to talk about as far as warrenty. Steve


----------



## pgg (Nov 3, 2011)

Echos are evil and dangerous. I've heard they explode and injure the operator with flying shrapnel etc.. be careful


----------



## JustinM (Nov 3, 2011)

miking said:


> Remember, a warranty covers their mistakes with it, not yours.




Bingo. Which is why a 1 or 2 year warranty should most likely be plenty if you're talking about a manufacturer's error.


----------



## TK (Nov 3, 2011)

353


----------



## Hedgerow (Nov 3, 2011)

pgg said:


> Echos are evil and dangerous. I've heard they explode and injure the operator with flying shrapnel etc.. be careful



I've heard that... I need to get one to be sure though...:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## jimdad07 (Nov 3, 2011)

I can only give advice on what I know first hand. I do not run Echos, not because I don't like them but because I like Stihl and Dolmar. Out of the Stihls and the Dolmars I have owned and or ran, I think they are comparable to each other in performance and in price. Both machines are very durable if buying the pro grade and as far as a mid range saw, I will take the Dolmar any time. Their mid grade saws seem to have more pro-like qualities than the Stihls do and the pricing is pretty close. I have heard good things about the newer Echos but that is as far as my experience with them goes. I also agree with a 1 to 2 year warranty for manufacturing defects, even if you are an occasional user problems should show up in that time frame. A five year warranty doesn't do you much good if there is trouble honoring it.


----------



## opinion (Nov 3, 2011)

I have a hard time believing someone going out of business because of warranty. I'm inclined to believe that he was a bad businessman more than anything. If Echo had so many warranty issues that warranty is what kept someone in business, Echo would've been bankrupt a long time ago. 99% of the time when someone comes in barking about warranty, its user stupidity. There's no money in warranty! Just buy what you like and don't worry about the marketing schemes.


----------



## s219 (Nov 3, 2011)

In my limited experience with 3-4 different saw brands, I honestly think Echos are the most consistently easy starting and most user friendly. I would not hesistate to buy or recommend one. I'm also very pleased with my Stihl MS-261, but it's definitely a little more fussy than my Echo. The 550P is a good saw.


----------



## jus2fat (Nov 3, 2011)

opinion said:


> I have a hard time believing someone going out of business because of warranty. I'm inclined to believe that he was a bad businessman more than anything. If Echo had so many warranty issues that warranty is what kept someone in business, Echo would've been bankrupt a long time ago. 99% of the time when someone comes in barking about warranty, its user stupidity. There's no money in warranty! Just buy what you like and don't worry about the marketing schemes.


The dealers problem was the time frame...5 years. But business was slow to start with.
The older the saw the more likely it was to have warranty problems.
Sort of like getting backed into a corner.

He certainly was not a bad dealer or businessman at all...just the time factor.

IMHO...5 years is just tooo long for a warranty for a chainsaw...that's at "breakline" for autos..!! 

The main problem..as I see it..is that stuff just broke in less time than company expected.
But the parts were supposedly covered under the 5 yr. warranty.

Company won't honor the warranty...word spreads...few new sales...= out of business..!!

I really hate that he went out of business...kinda kept the Stihl guys on their toes.

Now I got 3 Stihl dealers close and 1 Husquvarna...the Husky dealer is same as...
you guessed it...the biggest Stihl dealer..!!

J2F
J2F


----------



## groundup (Nov 3, 2011)

Stihl because their oranger


----------



## bootboy (Nov 3, 2011)

Wow, thanks for all the info. Now, another question that may be pointless to ask butis there any preference here for .325 vs 3/8? Or any reason that this should be a factor in making my decision? I have my reasons, like cheaper, longer lasting chains for the 3/8 plus the ability to run skip chain. Any reason upgrade a 3.25 saw like the 550p to run 3/8?
Once again, your thoughts.


----------



## Hedgerow (Nov 3, 2011)

s219 said:


> In my limited experience with 3-4 different saw brands, I honestly think Echos are the most consistently easy starting and most user friendly. I would not hesistate to buy or recommend one. I'm also very pleased with my Stihl MS-261, but it's definitely a little more fussy than my Echo. The 550P is a good saw.



I think what Echo is missing, is that "one saw" in a class , that stands out... I've got a couple neighbors that "echo" your statement exactly... "They just start and run"... Is what they tell me... They're not loggers... They're farmers by trade... They just need em' to run when called upon, and seem to do the job...
Just sayin'....:msp_rolleyes:


----------



## jimdad07 (Nov 3, 2011)

bootboy said:


> Wow, thanks for all the info. Now, another question that may be pointless to ask butis there any preference here for .325 vs 3/8? Or any reason that this should be a factor in making my decision? I have my reasons, like cheaper, longer lasting chains for the 3/8 plus the ability to run skip chain. Any reason upgrade a 3.25 saw like the 550p to run 3/8?
> Once again, your thoughts.



If you get on Baileys, you should be able to find a few options for skip chain. As far as the preference for 3/8 chain, I like it because all but two or three of my saws run it so it will be worth it to me to finally make the switch to making my own loops, the cutters are big enough to really be able to see the angles for hand filing a lot more accurately for myself anyhow and I like the way it cuts better, it's more aggressive than the smaller pitches. Comes down to a matter of preference I think, you might want to try out a couple of different combos to see what works for you. My personal preference is 3/8 if the saw is big enough to handle it.


----------



## bootboy (Nov 3, 2011)

Btw, groundup, I think the echoes are oranger. 
What's with all the orange saws out there? I've always liked the red shindis, but I guess an echo is really just an orange shindi.

Where are the echoes built? Are they actually made in the shindaiwa plant? 
I do like the fact that Stihl is a family owned company, not part of some giant conglomerate.
I've heard Echo/shindaiwa reffered to as the Toyota of the chainsaw world, solid Japanese engineering, take care of it and it will last forever. That being said, I drive a Toyota 4runner with nearly 200k on it. Maybe it's a sign... The Germans build cars that are amazing to drive but not known for their reliability and are extremely pricey to fix.
Is this a good analogy/parallel? If so, I'm going echo.


----------



## Log Hogger (Nov 3, 2011)

Husqvarna 359


----------



## mt.stalker (Nov 3, 2011)

bootboy said:


> Wow, thanks for all the info. Now, another question that may be pointless to ask butis there any preference here for .325 vs 3/8? Or any reason that this should be a factor in making my decision? I have my reasons, like cheaper, longer lasting chains for the 3/8 plus the ability to run skip chain. Any reason upgrade a 3.25 saw like the 550p to run 3/8?
> Once again, your thoughts.



Run 3/8 on any saw over 55cc , and maybe some 50cc saws .


----------



## bootboy (Nov 3, 2011)

I've got to be honest, there's a little bit of an ego issue here. My uncle that I cut with runs a stihl ms 310 with full skip and it's is a great saw, but if I go with stihl I can't have a smaller saw than him, so that rules out the 290. Could I upgrade the 550p to run 3/8 and expect to keep up or even out cut him? (we are both very picky about sharp chains and saw maintenance) If I can get the 550 upgraded to 3/8 for decent price that might be the saw for me.
My local echo dealer was flexible and quoted me $470 + tax on the 550p. The Stihl shop was super firm on the $519 + tax on the 311. If I can get my Echo guy to upgrade the 550p for only a few dollars and still be a better price than the 311, I think thats what I'll do. 

So the decision is this:

cs600p 20" 3/8 - $525
cs550p 20".235 - $470 or upgraded to 3/8 for ~$500
ms311 20" 3/8 - $519

Thanks for your help everyone, The response on here has been amazing. Glad to join you on this site. Plus, it just fun to talk about saws anyway


----------



## STIHLTHEDEERE (Nov 4, 2011)

550 & 600 weigh the same, 600 has more power. i own 2 of them and there is nothing wrong with that saw. i bought mine off ebay for 425.00 with the warranty. echo has no problem with yuo registering them online.


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 4, 2011)

bootboy said:


> I've got to be honest, there's a little bit of an ego issue here. My uncle that I cut with runs a stihl ms 310 with full skip and it's is a great saw, but if I go with stihl I can't have a smaller saw than him, so that rules out the 290. Could I upgrade the 550p to run 3/8 and expect to keep up or even out cut him? (we are both very picky about sharp chains and saw maintenance) If I can get the 550 upgraded to 3/8 for decent price that might be the saw for me.
> My local echo dealer was flexible and quoted me $470 + tax on the 550p. The Stihl shop was super firm on the $519 + tax on the 311. If I can get my Echo guy to upgrade the 550p for only a few dollars and still be a better price than the 311, I think thats what I'll do.
> 
> So the decision is this:
> ...



Get a CS600 off Ebay , once in a while there's one for $400 but they seem to have gone up in price. You should be comparing the CS600 to a Stihl MS361 or MS362 as they are close in qualiy and performance. Steve


----------



## miking (Nov 4, 2011)

mountainlake said:


> Get a CS600 off Ebay , once in a while there's one for $400 but they seem to have gone up in price. You should be comparing the CS600 to a Stihl MS361 or MS362 as they are close in qualiy and performance. Steve



Absolutely. Like anything of quality, they get better the more you run them which I think is what Echo hangs their hat on with the 5 year warranty. Be good to it and it will be good to you.


----------



## Cliff R (Nov 4, 2011)

+3

The Echo CS-600P is what I would get without hesitation, if I needed a saw in that size-range. I have all sorts of Echo power equipment, leaf blower, string trimmer, garden tiller, half a dozen chainsaws...never once needed their warranty for any reason. Granted, I service all of my saws after every outing, and fine tune them if/as needed based on weather, etc.

The only place I can fault them, is right out of the box they are WAY too lean to meet EPA requirements. It is manditory, IMHO, to richen them up some, right from day one, or you just might need that warranty.

Those few that continue to "bash" Echo products haven't got a clue how to adjust the carb on one, and from what I've seen in the videos, don't know how to run a saw either.......Cliff

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260866504113


----------



## jus2fat (Nov 4, 2011)

WOW..!! New In Box for $420 including shipping is one heck of a great price..!!

Bootboy...you really should jump on this deal..!!!

J2F


----------



## bootboy (Nov 4, 2011)

That ad is no good. it's expired. bummer:frown:

however there is a buy it now w/free shipping for $469


----------



## Sterzenbach (Nov 4, 2011)

Just some good sayings on echo... My family has had a 16 crew landscaping company in southern california. Trying every brand at the start. they have ran echo for 22 years and never had any problems. Just the occasoinal wear and tear damage by employees.We have had blowers edgers weedwhipers saws just about everything they put out. If i had the money for a new say id grab a echo for sure.


----------



## Fasttimez (Nov 4, 2011)

I recently bought a CS600-P and absolutely love it. I trimmed the limiter screws and adjusted the carb and it absolutely screams...I was recently talking to the local Stihl dealer and telling him about my Echo (I was purchasing a new chain) and he asked if he could see it. I had it out in my truck so I let him take it out back and demo it (for a free chain)...he was more than impressed with it's power and cut speed...also he said it had the fastest throttle response he'd ever seen.


----------



## indiansprings (Nov 4, 2011)

The only comment I can make is out local dealer that carries Stihl, Kawasaki trimmers, Echo, Shindawia, equipment has cut his echo saw inventory down to two saws, he believes in their string trimmers but says the warranty isn't worth the paper it is wrote on. He says Echo is horrible about re-emburshing the dealers for labor, if the Kawasaki line of trimmers sell, he says the entire line is bye,bye, he's carried them over twenty years. The seem to be built fairly well, I haven't been overly impressed with the ones I've run, but they were not mine, both were in need of a tune. It's the only major brand of saw I don't own but many have stated their new models are impressive, if I weren't happy with my current dealer support, I wouldn't be afraid to try one. I would go with whichever one I had the best feel on the dealer, which one will service and support their product the best. Dealer relationships/support can sometimes be more important than the color of saw in your hands.


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 4, 2011)

pgg said:


> Echos are evil and dangerous. I've heard they explode and injure the operator with flying shrapnel etc.. be careful



At least the brand is evil, and it isn't a coincidence that they usually don't advertise power specs!


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 5, 2011)

SawTroll said:


> At least the brand is evil, and it isn't a coincidence that they usually don't advertise power specs!




They don't post numbers cuz factory published numbers don't mean squat, it's how fast a saw cuts cc for cc and wieght that counts and when properly tuned Echo saws do a good job. This is from someone that actually ran a few Echo saws as well as Stihl, Husky, Dolmar, Efco, Solo, Jonesred Steve


----------



## Storm56 (Nov 5, 2011)

bootboy said:


> So I've been doing my homework and I've narrowed it down a few choices for a new saw. Echo cs550p vs Stihl ms290. Both weigh about the same and run 20" bars and .325 chain.
> In the 3/8 category I'm stuck between the cs600p and the ms311. The Stihls run from $15-50 less. But echo's 5 year warranty is sweetening the deal. Anyone experience with these saws and care to weigh in?
> 
> P.s. New guy here...



Comparing the Echo & Stihl saws you mention, no question Echo. The Stihl 290-311 series are light years BEHIND the Echo CS 550P-600P, plus you can probably buy the Echo's for less. Stihl is and has been running on their name for the mid line saws and the quality has gone in the toilet. 

As mentioned, fatten up the fuel delivery right from the get go and you will probably not need to worry about a 5 year warranty. 

I have two Echo saws, a CS 530 and a CS 600P. The 600P runs right with my Stihl 360 Pro, and I MUCH prefer the 530 to my 290 Stihl.

I will not bash Stihl's pro line of saws, but my advice on their mid line saws is to avoid them.

PS: HP specs are nice to look at, but do not bank on them. My lower cc, supposed lower HP 530 Echo positively BURIES my higher cc, supposed higher HP 290 Stihl.


----------



## Soilarch (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm in a very similar position. I can't tell you want to do/decide but here's what it comes down to for me.

Both "seem" to be reputable saws/brands
Stihl has a name and only needs to keep it.
Echo has a name (in the right circles) but is still trying to build it in the saw world.

Buying echo will let you keep a little cash in pocket for chains/bars/files/wedges/chaps/scabbards...whatever you deem as necessary extras. (If you buy used this is thrown out the window of course.)

The the determining factor for me will be dealer support. (Not the size of the overall dealer network, but the human being I will have to, hopefully not much, deal with regarding the saw.)

If I'm able to find a stihl dealer that I can actually put faith in, I'm likely to buy a used Stihl. (The only legitimate downside to Stihls, in my opinion, is new price.) Because I doubt this is going to happen I'm likely to go Echo...the guy around here has a surprisingly booming business and is on the level with both homeowner and commercial types. 


I suggest you evaluate the dealers as much as the saws themselves. You will never notice MOST of the differences in the saws once you become familiar with them. But you WILL want to cuss the first time the dealer disappoints.


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 5, 2011)

Storm56 said:


> Comparing the Echo & Stihl saws you mention, no question Echo. The Stihl 290-311 series are light years BEHIND the Echo CS 550P-600P, plus you can probably buy the Echo's for less. Stihl is and has been running on their name for the mid line saws and the quality has gone in the toilet.
> 
> As mentioned, fatten up the fuel delivery right from the get go and you will probably not need to worry about a 5 year warranty.
> 
> ...







Troll never would answer me when I asked how much HP a CS 510,520,530 has when they cut faster the the 3.8 hp 56cc 029 290 every time. Steve


----------



## miking (Nov 5, 2011)

Dealer support, be it good or bad can happen with any brand. I really haven't had an opportunity to try out the warranty on my Echos but I feel good about the dealership where I buy mix and files and such, and the guys there are real nice. Just kind of a gut feeling, but my guess is they'd honor the warranty if need be without haggling about it. My guess is though, thye would have to nullify a warranty claim if anything I did was out of whack with stock, such as pulling even a muffler screen or trimming limiters. I doubt it would be the local guy's call on that but the parent company, and that could happen with any brand anyway. I had my dealer techs tune the saws prior to my buying them so none of them except the 600P needed much, fortunately. If they are a reputable servicing dealer, they should have no problem tuning yours up for you.


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 6, 2011)

You can get oem Echo parts online, about half the price of Stihl parts most times. Steve


----------



## SawTroll (Nov 6, 2011)

mountainlake said:


> Troll never would answer me when I asked how much HP a CS 510,520,530 has when they cut faster the the 3.8 hp 56cc 029 290 every time. Steve



Outcutting a 290 isn't much to brag about, and Echo usually don't publish power specs, so they are hard to find.


----------



## bootboy (Nov 6, 2011)

I bought a saw. 600p for $440. Pretty excited. It should be here by the end of next week! What recommendations do you guys have for which oil I should run for chain and my mix? I want do this the right way from the beginning. Also, I hear the echo saws run a little lean out of the box, I'm looking for recommendations on tuning.


----------



## Hedgerow (Nov 6, 2011)

bootboy said:


> I bought a saw. 600p for $440. Pretty excited. It should be here by the end of next week! What recommendations do you guys have for which oil I should run for chain and my mix? I want do this the right way from the beginning. Also, I hear the echo saws run a little lean out of the box, I'm looking for recommendations on tuning.



50:1 Stihl Ultra... Use a non-ethanol gas if you can. Enjoy your new saw...


----------



## mountainlake (Nov 7, 2011)

bootboy said:


> I bought a saw. 600p for $440. Pretty excited. It should be here by the end of next week! What recommendations do you guys have for which oil I should run for chain and my mix? I want do this the right way from the beginning. Also, I hear the echo saws run a little lean out of the box, I'm looking for recommendations on tuning.



Run any decent name brand oil, non safety chiesel chain cuts the fastest, even safety semi chiesl will cut good if you take the rakers down a little and grind the safety humps mostly off and semi chiesel will stay sharp longer in dirty wood. Sound like you got it off Ebay, pull the caps and turn the high out untill the engine slows down notacibly at wot no load, then cutting bigger wood turn back in gradually untill it cuts the fastest with decent pressure. Rev limiters can fool you into thinking it plenty rich when it's actually lean. If your worryied about the warrenty you can put the caps back on after adjusting without grinding the tabs off otherwise they grind off on a bench grinder fast. Steve


----------



## mattchambers (Nov 14, 2011)

*medium commercial use strait shaft trimmer*

I'm looking into buying a trimmer,n for light commercial use. There are so many brands. Looking at stihl, kawasaki, echo, shindaiwa and not sure what trimmer to get. What do you guys recommend?


----------



## bootboy (Nov 14, 2011)

Part of the reason i went with an echo saw is the fact that I have an echo trimmer I bought in highschool for lawn mowing 3-4 days a week. It's been nearly 10 years of constant use and I've never once had a problem with it. Even now it never takes more than 4 or five pulls to bring it to life. Awesome machine. I leaks a little oil but what the heck, it's a 2 stroke.


----------



## rmh3481 (Nov 14, 2011)

Congrats on the Echo, you made the right choice. 

Run the Echo oil, richen up the carb a little. Keep the bar out of the dirt and buy a set of chaps with the money you saved.


----------



## Saw Dr. (Nov 14, 2011)

mattchambers said:


> I'm looking into buying a trimmer,n for light commercial use. There are so many brands. Looking at stihl, kawasaki, echo, shindaiwa and not sure what trimmer to get. What do you guys recommend?



It is the wrong forum but anyway... If you decide to go with Echo for the trimmer, do yourself a favor and go to the dealer for a pro model. The commercial ones seem to be pretty stout.


----------

