# MS361 Big Bore Kit Review



## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes, you read that right. I have setting on my desk here a brand new prototype MS361 BB kit. Bore size is 49mm resulting in a displacement of 64.1cc, up from 59.0 stock. So far I've visually inspected, measured specs, and taken pictures. I've not yet put the parts on my saw. That will come soon enough. The P&C look very good. I intend for this is to be a fair honest report. *Please keep this thread clean and on topic* as I would like for it to be something of a product review than can be useful to others.

Here's some of the specs.

Piston Weight = 2.4 oz
Wrist Pin Weight = 0.4 oz
Cylinder Weight = 16.4 oz
Crown thickness above top ring groove = 0.135". Plenty of room for a popup.
Ring thickness = 0.047" = 1.2mm
Ring thickness = 0.009" and 0.011"
Piston to cylinder clearance = 0.0015".

Here are some notes I've made so far.

If the piston is twisted perhaps 45* in the bore, it gets a little snug. The corners of the tails of the cylinder that fit into the case are 0.001" tighter than in the middle. It's a non issue when lined up as it would be when assembled. These never contact the piston during operation.
There is one small pourous cavity in combustion chamber, a non-issue.
Stihl style circlips are now used and the piston is relieve likewise for removal. A nice improvement the customers have called for.
The ports are very nicely beveled.
The NiSi coating and honing looks nice.
Lots of extra skirt width and meat in the ports for porting.
The piston skirt does not even come close to freeporting the exhaust port at TDC.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)




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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lots of rooom for widening the intake port.





Lots of room on the exhaust too.


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## Cheese (Dec 1, 2008)

So can we ask you about this?

Seems like a BB 361 with port work like you have done, would be a fun, light work saw. I am still having mixed emotions about how the 361 feels in my hands compared to the bigger pro saws.

Looking forward to more pictures, video and your usual attention to detail.


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## GASoline71 (Dec 1, 2008)

Why on earth would you want a BB on a 59cc saw?

However... I think the big bore kits are a waste of money... but that's just me.

Gary


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

What about the port timing? Did they just copy a stock cylinder and then bore it out (like the earleir 066BB kits...), or are they adjusted?

Your comment about the piston being tight when rotated... lolol.. Hope they are aren't like that with a 1.5 thou clearance.... have you ever seen an OEM piston/cylinder like that? I'd send it back and ask for another.

I see it has the same old crappy non-tapered (lightened) pins..

So Brad - how about testing it as-is before porting it...??


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't think Baileys claims for these to be of the same standards as OEM Mahle P&C kits. However, they serve as a valuable option for the saw owner that either doesn't want to spend as much, or one that wants more CCs. I think it's great. The more options the merrier.

I have not assembled it yet to measure port timing.


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## GASoline71 (Dec 1, 2008)

Toss those crappy wrist pin clips too... 

Gary


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> Toss those crappy wrist pin clips too...
> 
> Gary



They look just like Stihls now. Did you see the pic? Might be cheaper metal, but at least they gave us the style we've been asking for.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> They look just like Stihls now. Did you see the pic? Might be cheaper metal, but at least they gave us the style we've been asking for.



Unless then are a DIN standard clip, throw them. The CHICOM junk TS400 piston sets have has "stihl looking" clips for years. Still junk.

But, it probably won't matter with a binding piston anyhow


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## stihl only (Dec 1, 2008)

Could you include the weights of the OEM parts so they can be compared. We know that pin will be fat, but I think that is something being worked on.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

stihl only said:


> We know that pin will be fat, but I think that is something being worked on.



Why do you think that?


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

stihl only said:


> Could you include the weights of the OEM parts so they can be compared. We know that pin will be fat, but I think that is something being worked on.



That's my intentions. I just reuse the factory pin though, so it's a non-issue to me.


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## stihl only (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Why do you think that?



Fat, as in HEAVY, not fat, as in diameter.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

Why do you think Baileys is working on that?


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## Haywire Haywood (Dec 1, 2008)

Don't toss anything... test it un-ported as it came in the kit. If it fails, it fails and is then shown as a weakness. Unless of course, you paid for the P&C or are keeping it after the testing is done and would like to minimize the chance that something catastrophic happens. I doubt anything will happen anyway, at least in a short term test. Long term might be another story though. Yank it apart and replace the suspect bits and pieces afterward.

JMO,
Ian


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> That's my intentions. I just reuse the factory pin though, so it's a non-issue to me.



Doesn't help the guy with a toasted pin though...

Did they send you a new coated metal cylinder base gasket?


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## serial killer (Dec 1, 2008)

So with this kit, I'll be able to go longer before emptying my ashtray?


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## nitro (Dec 1, 2008)

*036 bb?*

wonder if they got for the 036 ,but i just rebuilt mine so next time i would go big say-la-vee

when i do car or bike motors i weigh all the pistons and rods with a digital scale and match them to the lightest one


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## forestryworks (Dec 1, 2008)

serial killer said:


> So with this kit, I'll be able to go longer before emptying my ashtray?



depends on how much you cut and how much you smoke


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Don't toss anything... test it un-ported as it came in the kit. If it fails, it fails and is then shown as a weakness. Unless of course, you paid for the P&C or are keeping it after the testing is done and would like to minimize the chance that something catastrophic happens. I doubt anything will happen anyway, at least in a short term test. Long term might be another story though. Yank it apart and replace the suspect bits and pieces afterward.
> 
> JMO,
> Ian


I will be putting it together stock.



Lakeside53 said:


> Doesn't help the guy with a toasted pin though...
> 
> Did they send you a new coated metal cylinder base gasket?


Fair enough. I'll put it together with the pin it came with. No it doesn't come with a gasket. Why all the hate? It is what it is. If the Stihl is that much better, it'll show for itself. I didn't come on here to tell you guys this is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm simply showing you what should soon be available to the end user. Options are good. I have nothing to gain here, nothing to loose. If this thing fails, you'll know about it. If it doesn't and runs well...then there's an option that will only cost about 40% of OEM.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

There's no hate... but I do hate seeing stuff that so easy to make right, and year later they still don't...

Are you really going to put a binding piston in that cylinder?


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> There's no hate... but I do hate seeing stuff that so easy to make right, and year later they still don't...
> 
> Are you really going to put a binding piston in that cylinder?



It's not binding unless you twist it 45* or so. That can't happen in operation. I really don't think it's an issue. If it is, it'll tell me soon enough


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> It's not binding unless you twist it 45* or so. That can't happen in operation. I really don't think it's an issue. If it is, it'll tell me soon enough


 
Try that with an oem... To me it's an indicator of poor QA. I can't figure the math after three beers, but at some point is real close when not 45...


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## parrisw (Dec 1, 2008)

I got no problem with a economical option, cant wait to see how it works.


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## huskydave (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Try that with an oem... To me it's an indicator of poor QA. I can't figure the math after three beers, but at some point is real close when not 45...



No the piston just isn't round.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> I can't figure the math after three beers, but at some point is real close when not 45...



I don't follow what your saying.


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## parrisw (Dec 1, 2008)

huskydave said:


> No the piston just isn't round.



Most pistons are oval anyway arn't they?? I know in automotive applications, pistons are oval, are saws the same?


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

parrisw said:


> Most pistons are oval anyway arn't they?? I know in automotive applications, pistons are oval, are saws the same?



The ovalness in chainsaws pistons (if they really are turned ovate) is in 10ths...


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> I don't follow what your saying.



Draw a picture of an oval inside a circle. Rotate that oval... What happens?

Hint - nothing... unless the bore is also oval.


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## mtngun (Dec 1, 2008)

Thank you for the detailed information, Mr. Snelling. 

I don't own a 361, so I have no dog in this fight, but I am interested in the general quality of the parts that Bailey's offers. From what I have seen and read, the Bailey's pistons seem to be quite a bit better than Golf parts.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Draw a picture of an oval inside a circle. Rotate that oval... What happens?



I gotcha. It only does it on the skirt of the piston where it's larger. Additionaly, the piston never contacts the corners of the skirts of the cylinder that protrudes into the case. The skirt of the piston is narrower than the skirts of the cylinder.


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## epicklein22 (Dec 1, 2008)

I think this is an awesome option just for the people who come across blown up 361s. Now you can get a new top end for more than half off an OEM set. Are they OEM quality, no. No one said they were either. These will be a great bang for the buck. I am interested in how they will run. The current BBs are known for lots of torque, large squish and not a ton of RPMs.


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## huskydave (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Draw a picture of an oval inside a circle. Rotate that oval... What happens?
> 
> Hint - nothing... unless the bore is also oval.



It's just the prototype. The next batch may be round.


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## Haywire Haywood (Dec 1, 2008)

huskydave said:


> It's just the prototype. The next batch may be rounder.



fixed that... :greenchainsaw:


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## GASoline71 (Dec 1, 2008)

No hatin' Brad... just hope it comes together as a decent budget option. But... I've seen what happens first hand with some of the big bore kits and stock aftermarket kits...

I'm not all that impressed... but again, that's just me. 

Gary


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## Metals406 (Dec 1, 2008)

Soooooo, if an 039 top can fit on an 029, will this new kit fit any other saws besides the 361?


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

It's all cool.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Soooooo, if an 039 top can fit on an 029, will this new kit fit any other saws besides the 361?



No.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Soooooo, if an 039 top can fit on an 029, will this new kit fit any other saws besides the 361?



nope


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> It's all cool.



yep...


My angst surfaces 'cos I have to make a living from installing parts... I'll pay good money for good parts, but a bad part (or worse- parts that I can't rely on as good) costs me my reputation, and maybe the customer.

BTW, you said 40% of Stihls price? The OEM 361 P&C (with nice pins ) is $220... so these will list for $88?


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## Metals406 (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> No.



Damn... And here I was hopin' to drop one of those babies on a Poulan.:monkey: 

:greenchainsaw:


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## gonecountry (Dec 1, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> Soooooo, if an 039 top can fit on an 029, will this new kit fit any other saws besides the 361?





blsnelling said:


> No.



Wouldn't it fit the 341, Its basically the same saw as the 361 with a few different things, but nothing major should be a bolt up.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

Yep.. you're right... Forgot about those -not available in USA...


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## epicklein22 (Dec 1, 2008)

220? Dang, that has to be one of the best deals on an OEM top end out there. I wonder if that is the same here in the mid-west.

As for wrist pins and keepers, my dealer had a wrist pin catch a port on an 026 last month. So anything is possible.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> yep...
> 
> 
> My angst surfaces 'cos I have to make a living from installing parts... I'll pay good money for good parts, but a bad part (or worse- parts that I can't rely on as good) costs me my reputation, and maybe the customer.
> ...



I totally understand. Last time I checked on the OEM 361 P&C was more than a year ago. I thought I remembered it being about $300. I bought a brand new take off for $200 when I needed one.


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## serial killer (Dec 1, 2008)

I heard $220 last week, but I think I had heard that $300 number before too.


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## Poley4 (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Draw a picture of an oval inside a circle. Rotate that oval... What happens?
> 
> Hint - nothing... unless the bore is also oval.



Yeah, I'm with you. The piston shouldn't be round, but the cylinder should be, so turning the piston in the cylinder shouldn't yield any tight spots.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

Stihl has screwed up their pricing. A year ago the East Coast was $212, and the West $300.. It was cheaper for me to buy a cylinder from a friendly Eastern dealer and pay some markup, than to buy from StihlNW. They fixed that.. It's now pretty much standard across the USA.


Also... they sell a tiny number of 361 kits. We sell a 361 at least every week, sometime more, and have only ever replaced one... that cracked (loose base bolts). And we servive a far wider area then we sell... Some of the 361 I service are so beat it's incredible they still run, but they do. One tough saw.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

Poley4 said:


> Yeah, I'm with you. The piston shouldn't be round, but the cylinder should be, so turning the piston in the cylinder shouldn't yield any tight spots.



yep...


I just tried a "new" pull P&C. No rotational issues.


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## poulson01 (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm down. When's the first production run?


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

poulson01 said:


> I'm down. When's the first production run?


I'm assuming a couple months once the prototypes are wrung out.


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## Gologit (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay,the 361 BB kit is cheaper than buying OEM. That's mainly because the quality isn't quite as good, right?

So...how does that affect longevity? Most of the guys running 361s are in it for the long haul. Will the BB kit hold up?


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

I guess we'll know in 2011, or maybe 2030 for most homeowner AS guys

OEM -2500-3000 hours plus... 

For half price can you can get a 1000? hmmmm  I have no idea.. just stirring, but not impressed with any other than Tecomec I've has to fix from the past.


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## gonecountry (Dec 1, 2008)

So you've taken pics and measurements, You got that thing on there yet?:biggrinbounce2:


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

gonecountry said:


> So you've taken pics and measurements, You got that thing on there yet?:biggrinbounce2:



Is his OEM P&C on the trading post yet?:greenchainsaw:


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

gonecountry said:


> So you've taken pics and measurements, You got that thing on there yet?:biggrinbounce2:



I've been slacking tonight. Just setting here in front of the computer and watching TV. I've been fighting something the last few days. Hopefully I'll have it running tomorrow night.


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## blsnelling (Dec 1, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Is his OEM P&C on the trading post yet?:greenchainsaw:



Nah baby nah. It runs too good. Might as well do some more work to it while it's apart testing this kit


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## gonecountry (Dec 1, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> I've been fighting something the last few days.



It must be a computer virus, get in the shop LOL


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## scootr (Dec 1, 2008)

What is so different about the cylinder, comparing to an 036? Looks the same. Diff stroke? Sure would be nice to bolt that kit on a 034 Super.

Bore and stroke for 034S and 036 is 48mm X 34mm. What does the 361 have? How about cyl mount holes and case bore? The wheels are spinning in my peanut brain. LOL


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## epicklein22 (Dec 1, 2008)

Damn, Lake is killing it in this thread. I can't stop laughing. lol

Hey stihl041s, I see you down there. Clear your mail box......I still want that 029....


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

scootr said:


> What is so different about the cylinder, comparing to an 036? Looks the same. Diff stroke? Sure would be nice to bolt that kit on a 034 Super.
> 
> Bore and stroke for 034S and 036 is 48mm X 34mm. What does the 361 have? How about cyl mount holes and case bore? The wheels are spinning in my peanut brain. LOL



lolol... way way different....


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

epicklein22 said:


> Damn, Lake is killing it in this thread. I can't stop laughing. lol
> 
> Hey stihl041s, I see you down there. Clear your mail box......I still want that 029....



It's the beer speaking.

burp...


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## superfire (Dec 1, 2008)

*couple ????*

will this strain the bearings? will the oil pump hold up to more torque? also will this kit fit a older stihl ms 360?
thanks for the review Brad


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## GASoline71 (Dec 1, 2008)

036/360 are not the same animal as the 361.

Gary


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 1, 2008)

superfire said:


> will this strain the bearings? will the oil pump hold up to more torque? also will this kit fit a older stihl ms 360?
> thanks for the review Brad



The oil pump is non-issue, and in any case it's the same (except stroke) as the 460...

yes, it will put more load on the bearingss, but more importantly with anything that increases the HP, the cooling... 

Gary answered the 360 question..


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## FATGUY (Dec 1, 2008)

Hey Brad, thanks for sharing this with us?


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## Four Paws (Dec 2, 2008)

opcorn: HAHAHA.


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## windthrown (Dec 2, 2008)

*The 361 vs the 360*

The MS 361 was a completely new design from the Stihl engineers, not an updated 360. The 361 engine has four long closed transfer ports compared to the two short closed ports on the 360. The 360 has 61.5cc displacement, and the 361 has 59cc. The 361 also has a different ignition with an advance curve. Emissions on the 361 are lower than the 360, and it gets better fuel economy. The 361 has a tad less power than the 360 (1/10th of a HP). The 361 has a spring mount handle that really cuts down on the vibration, compared to the rubber mounts of the 360. I have run them side by side and the 361 has way less vibration. The 361 is a tad lighter than the 360 as well, but you would not notice it (about .2 pounds more on the 360).


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## blsnelling (Dec 2, 2008)

The 361BB is running. Squish on my OEM ported cylinder without a base gasket is .017". The BB kit was the same, even on all four sides. I don't have a base gasket so I put it together with ThreeBond 1194. Three pulls to pop and three to running. The idle needle was a little lean and idle speed was a little low. It idles well. I let it idle until the cylinder was good and warm and shut it off. I immediately pulled a compression check and it was a solid 150 PSI. I typically see 10 PSI more compression when cold. Plus this engine has seen no revs. Just a few blips of the throttle. My OEM P&C has 175 PSI cold, so maybe 15 PSI less on the BB kit. However, if compression is 160 cold with no run time, that's excellent. Throttle response is instant just like a stock saw. I also might add that my muffler is ported. Running no base gasket and a ported muffler are typical mods the average Joe can do himself, so this should be a fair test.

There was a kink in the assembly process though. The edges of the skirt hit the case and could not make a full rotation. There are indentations in the case where the piston skirt goes at BDC. These pockets are too narrow for this piston skirt as shipped. I decided I wasn't willing to grind on my case and risk metal in the bearings for the sake of testing this kit. Instead I narrowed the skirt. I'm sure that's what will end up being shipped anyway. Baileys is after a bolt on kit with no mods required. You will see in the pictures that the skirt is a lot wider than stock. Even after I narrowed it, it's still a little wider than stock. Diameter wise was VERY close, but it clears. If this were to hit, you would either have to grind the case or shorten the piston skirt considerably. But it clears.

The only other thing is the placement of the decomp valve. It's way off center. So much so that you can't use it. If you push it in, the plastic will hold it down. It would be a simple matter of relieving the engine cover a little if you need the decomp. For most, the solution is to plug it. You don't need it on a 60cc saw.

One little nit picky thing. I think the kit should come with the stud that the engine shroud fastens to. I had to remove mine from my OEM jug.

I might also recommend that the mounting flange be cut about 0.017" thinner. That way a cylinder gasket can be used and end up with a squish of 0.020". I see no reason to have a 0.037" squish. Compression and power would both suffer.

I'll put it through a couple more heat cycles and then put it to work. 


Stock piston that's been ported = 2.2 oz
Stock wrist pin = 0.4 oz
Stock jug that's ported 18.4 oz

This is how the stock piston sits down into the case.






Here's the BB piston as shipped hitting the case.





This is how much wider the skirt is.





The solution was to make it narrower.








It now clears.





Overall diameter is close. It's just resting against the case in the back.


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## blsnelling (Dec 2, 2008)

A thin layer of ThreeBond 1194. This replaced 1104.








Baileys ring compressor. Yes, that is a dirty saw you see. Contrary to popular belief, my saws do come off the wall and get used ocassionaly, LOL.





This heat shield is port matched to my OEM jug 





The spark plug is nicely centered.





The decomp pressed in.





The decomp pulled out.


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## gonecountry (Dec 2, 2008)

Good job man I was waiting all night for this, figgered it would be sooner or later, Cant wait for more.
And a vid!


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## Metals406 (Dec 2, 2008)

Wow! A lot of grinding could be done to match your heat shield!

Wonder what this kit would do all Snellerized!!??


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## volks-man (Dec 2, 2008)

reading with interest.

can grinding the skirt cause any balance issues, i.e. piston heavier in front causing a rocking action at the top and bottom of the bore during travel?

waiting for a test in the wood!


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

Just an observation... it amazes me that a company would spend the money to copy a piston/cylinder and still screw it up. Why would you make a prototype that doesn't have the decomp located corrrectly and a skirt a width that fits the crankcase (ignoring the oval issue)? It's not like this is the first time this has happened... (046BB, 066BB) sure, maybe not all Stihl cases are the same, but that's part of the copy process -get enough target samples to make something that works. The autoparts industry has "plug and play" down... Looks like AS users are beta testers again and again... Even Brad is only a sample of 1.


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## Jumbo Jimbo (Dec 2, 2008)

So this must mean that Brad's 361 can cure cancer even faster than stock 361s, right?


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

Jumbo Jimbo said:


> So this must mean that Brad's 361 can cure cancer even faster than stock 361s, right?



na.... Chinese manufacture... opps.. Taiwan (maybe), sorry (maybe) negates the cancer cure.

So.. all you guys that hated China in past threads are going to fit these? :greenchainsaw:


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## Gologit (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> na.... Chinese manufacure... opps.. Taiwan (maybe), sorry (maybe) negates the cancer cure.
> 
> So.. all you guys that hated China in past threads are going to fit these? :greenchainsaw:



Don't know. Probably not. I have 2 361s and they'll probably still be chugging along after I'm gone. The older one has quite a few hours on it and the compression is still very good.

What kind of gains in performance are we talking here? Or is just a matter of price between the BB and OEM?


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## epicklein22 (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> na.... Chinese manufacure... opps.. Taiwan (maybe), sorry (maybe) negates the cancer cure.
> 
> So.. all you guys that hated China in past threads are going to fit these? :greenchainsaw:



Man, I was just waiting for you to post once I saw those mods brad had to do to the piston just to get it to work. 

Well, at least Baileys picked a good guinea pig. lol Brad should be able to set them straight.


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## Jumbo Jimbo (Dec 2, 2008)

Oh ok I didn't know they were made in Asia (it doesn't matter which country because they all make junk.) But thanks for the information Lake.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Don't know. Probably not. I have 2 361s and they'll probably still be chugging along after I'm gone. The older one has quite a few hours on it and the compression is still very good.
> 
> What kind of gains in performance are we talking here? Or is just a matter of price between the BB and OEM?




OEM is $220... yes... how cheap will this kit be?

Gains will be interesting... The 361 carb barely keeps up with a stock cylinder. 

My not-so HO.. The BB will obviously need muffler mods, maybe carb mods etc to show respectable gains. This restricts it to the realm of AS and AS-like members... In case anyone thinks everyone does mufflers.. the ONLY 361 muffler mod I've ever seen around here are mine... and 99% PLUS of all pro saws that come though the store are stock.

So Brad - do you need stock cylinder, muffler and base gaket to compare the BB kit too? I'm sure I can round one up..


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

Jumbo Jimbo said:


> Oh ok I didn't know they were made in Asia (it doesn't matter which country because they all make junk.) But thanks for the information Lake.





It's an educated guess... I'll let Baileys refute it if wrong.


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## PB (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> It's an educated guess... I'll let Baileys refute it if wrong.



Made in Taiwan from Grande Dog himself in another thread.


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## blsnelling (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> So Brad - do you need stock cylinder, muffler and base gaket to compare the BB kit too? I'm sure I can round one up..



I appreciate the offer Andy. I think there are enough 361s around though that I won't have to break mine down again to get a stock comparison. I'll take my 10" Poplar test log to a GTG and run a stock one in the same wood.

I hear what you're saying about the skirt hitting. You would have thought that would have been a top priority.


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## PB (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> It's an educated guess... I'll let Baileys refute it if wrong.



http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=80290

Post #7.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> Made in Taiwan from Grande Dog himself in another thread.



Same diff to me... and many Taiwan companies now outsource rough work (like castings) to China... China can make work class finished products, if the USA puchaser sets the engineering specs, and enforces the appropriate QA/QC... Few do - hence Harbor Freight, Grizzley, Foremost, Northern too etc etc.. 

What keeps these guys in business? We do.. but that's all been thrashed out in other threads...


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## PB (Dec 2, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Same diff to me... and many Taiwan companies now outsource rough work (like castings) to China... China can make work class finished products, if the USA puchaser sets the engineering specs, and enforces the appropriate QA/QC... Few do - hence Harbor Freight, Grizzley, Foremost, Northern too etc etc..
> 
> What keeps these guys in business? We do.. but that's all been thrashed out in other threads...



Yep Taiwan=China to me too, but that has been discussed before. :deadhorse:


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 2, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> I appreciate the offer Andy. I think there are enough 361s around though that I won't have to break mine down again to get a stock comparison. I'll take my 10" Poplar test log to a GTG and run a stock one in the same wood.
> 
> I hear what you're saying about the skirt hitting. You would have thought that would have been a top priority.



So.. yours will be stock too? with gasket, no muffler mod etc... O.K.  silly question, but level playing fields are nice - much easier to compare than expanatory texts.


Skirt hitting yep.. But the oval cylinder/piston is a bigger concern... Prototype or not, it shows a real lack of QC. When I sent out a prototype part (past life..) I made damn sure it was as perfect as it could be, and any defects were listed. Whether your particular sample runs or not isn't totally relevent in the bigger picture.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 2, 2008)

PlantBiologist said:


> Yep Taiwan=China to me too, but that has been discussed before. :deadhorse:



LOL...All samey-same, foolish American.


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 2, 2008)

Waaaaatt!? You no like our piston and cywenders?

No noodle for you!!


----------



## PB (Dec 2, 2008)

Gologit said:


> LOL...All samey-same, foolish American.



China claims Taiwan but Taiwan is not run by China. I could go into mre detail but I have been drinking and it won't make sense and most would be BS anyways.


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## Tzed250 (Dec 2, 2008)

You get what you pay for...


----------



## PB (Dec 2, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> You get what you pay for...



That's what she said.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 2, 2008)

We're getting a little off topic


----------



## Tzed250 (Dec 2, 2008)

I was totally on topic...


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## Metals406 (Dec 2, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> We're getting a little off topic



I blame the drunk biologist... :monkey: 


Seriously though, once you R&D this thing for them, is Bailey's gonna fix what you say is wrong? Or if you see an area for gains, add or take away from it? i.e. different piston casting.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 2, 2008)

GO BRAD GO!!! Don't worry about the Nay Sayers. Their just jealous!!


----------



## rmh3481 (Dec 2, 2008)

*good job*

Thanks Brad. Great review.

Best wishes,
Bob


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## forestryworks (Dec 2, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> You get what you pay for...





PlantBiologist said:


> That's what she said.





blsnelling said:


> We're getting a little off topic





Tzed250 said:


> I was totally on topic...





Metals406 said:


> I blame the drunk biologist... :monkey:



i've been drinking and the above quoted made me go ha ha


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

me too hahaahhaha


----------



## forestryworks (Dec 3, 2008)

don't laugh too hard, andy, you'll spill saw in your beer


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

Beer? I've had my three.... I'm "sipping" VSOP right now. Some fool bought me a bottle of that high-priced liquor my Bday. Won't last long...


----------



## windthrown (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> na.... Chinese manufacture... opps.. Taiwan (maybe), sorry (maybe) negates the cancer cure.
> 
> So.. all you guys that hated China in past threads are going to fit these? :greenchainsaw:



Heck no! I plan on buying up enough 361s to keep them down on hours and never have to rebuild them.  

2010 looms, ever near. My time is short. I need to buy more 361s soon. CAD is not enough here. This is more serious. 

Thanks to CL, I can get a whole 361 in good shape now for a mere 2x the price of an OEM jug and piston... which 
seems more... cost effective. And no Tsing Tao-Instant Nao engine castings in the loop!

Oh, and I need one more 361 to be buried with. Maybe a virgin one, totally unused. No fumes that way in my coffin.


----------



## timistall (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> like members... In case anyone thinks everyone does mufflers.. the ONLY 361 muffler mod I've ever seen around here are mine... and 99% PLUS of all pro saws that come though the store are stock.




Now you've seen another


----------



## SawTroll (Dec 3, 2008)

windthrown said:


> The MS 361 was a completely new design from the Stihl engineers, not an updated 360. The 361 engine has four long closed transfer ports compared to the two short closed ports on the 360. The 360 has 61.5cc displacement, and the 361 has 59cc. The 361 also has a different ignition with an advance curve. Emissions on the 361 are lower than the 360, and it gets better fuel economy. The 361 has a tad less power than the 360 (1/10th of a HP). The 361 has a spring mount handle that really cuts down on the vibration, compared to the rubber mounts of the 360. I have run them side by side and the 361 has way less vibration. The 361 is a tad lighter than the 360 as well, but you would not notice it (about .2 pounds more on the 360).



The "tad less power" is specific to the US - all the VB made USA versions have a tad less power than the German made counterparts - EPA again.....umpkin2: umpkin2: umpkin2:


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Dec 3, 2008)

Companies such as Baileys having aftermarket sourced parts helps all the buyers of stihl, husky etc saws, without this kind of product what motivation does stihl have in keeping its parts prices at a realistic level? Not much here. We get put over a barrel and screwed for parts.
I try to keep a sense of humour about it but a P and C for an MS200t costs more than your average arborist get paid in the hand in a week, The same as my million dollar liability insurance for a year, the same as about 9 restraunt meals including drinks and desert for me and my wife or a month and a halfs worth of groceries.

If I was synical, I would say the difference in price for the 361 p&c is because stihl recognises that this is a potential risk to there parts monopoly and are acting to close the door where they need to (but were a little disorganised doing it). I dont know but has the cost of a Stihl 66 P&C has come down since they have been available aftermarket?

Aftermarket parts are great for the industry, even if they are not of the highest quality. 

Keep us posted on the 361BB progress, its all good!


----------



## windthrown (Dec 3, 2008)

SawTroll said:


> The "tad less power" is specific to the US - all the VB made USA versions have a tad less power than the German made counterparts - EPA again.....umpkin2: umpkin2: umpkin2:



Yah, I was told by a designer that the 361 original design had a tad more power than the 360. Checking the US specs though, it wound up the other way around. 

Was also told some stuff about the 362. Will be strato-scavanged, but supposed to be better than the way that the 441 was designed. We shall see...


----------



## volks-man (Dec 3, 2008)

was my question too noobish?
if you grind the piston to fit and you grind unevenly parallel with the round side if the wrist pin wouldn't the extra mass on one side or the other of the pin cause a rocking motion at tdc/bdc?


----------



## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Companies such as Baileys having aftermarket sourced parts helps all the buyers of stihl, husky etc saws, without this kind of product what motivation does stihl have in keeping its parts prices at a realistic level? Not much here. We get put over a barrel and screwed for parts.
> I try to keep a sense of humour about it but a P and C for an MS200t costs more than your average arborist get paid in the hand in a week, The same as my million dollar liability insurance for a year, the same as about 9 restraunt meals including drinks and desert for me and my wife or a month and a halfs worth of groceries.
> 
> If I was synical, I would say the difference in price for the 361 p&c is because stihl recognises that this is a potential risk to there parts monopoly and are acting to close the door where they need to (but were a little disorganised doing it). I dont know but has the cost of a Stihl 66 P&C has come down since they have been available aftermarket?
> ...



+1 I never have doubted the quality of OEM Stihl, but I absolutely agree with that!!


----------



## Crofter (Dec 3, 2008)

volks-man said:


> was my question too noobish?
> if you grind the piston to fit and you grind unevenly parallel with the round side if the wrist pin wouldn't the extra mass on one side or the other of the pin cause a rocking motion at tdc/bdc?



Yes technically it will be an off center load and induce a tendency to rotate or rock in the bore when accelerating or decelerating however if you consider the uneven lateral loading and friction caused by rod angularity, I think the balance factor is insignificant.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

volks-man said:


> was my question too noobish?
> if you grind the piston to fit and you grind unevenly parallel with the round side if the wrist pin wouldn't the extra mass on one side or the other of the pin cause a rocking motion at tdc/bdc?



I relieved the piston on all four corners. It's not going to make that much difference. I take a LOT more metal than that off the piston when I port a saw.


----------



## lcso10 (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> yep...
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, you said 40% of Stihls price? The OEM 361 P&C (with nice pins ) is $220... so these will list for $88?



In the southeast my list price is $160.45. Maybe they will get there price from my dealer price list. That would even be less than $88.00


----------



## epicklein22 (Dec 3, 2008)

lcso10 said:


> In the southeast my list price is $160.45. Maybe they will get there price from my dealer price list. That would even be less than $88.00



That is ridiculously cheap.


----------



## cuttinscott (Dec 3, 2008)

epicklein22 said:


> That is ridiculously cheap.



I would not call that Cheap for the Chinese Parts................




Scott


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

cuttinscott said:


> I would not call that Cheap for the Chinese Parts................
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think he's talking about $160 for OEM.


----------



## Mad Professor (Dec 3, 2008)

As Lakeside said, I'd be concerned if the piston and/or cylinder are not round, sounds like quality control is poor. What if the instead of tight/loose spots lining up the tight/tight spots do? With 0.0015 clearance I see a scuff on the way before a tank of gas is ran through it

Honda used to make bikes with oval pistons but they were _supposed to be that way_ and pulled 18,000 rpm.........


----------



## stihl only (Dec 3, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Companies such as Baileys having aftermarket sourced parts helps all the buyers of stihl, husky etc saws, without this kind of product what motivation does stihl have in keeping its parts prices at a realistic level? Not much here. We get put over a barrel and screwed for parts.
> I try to keep a sense of humour about it but a P and C for an MS200t costs more than your average arborist get paid in the hand in a week, The same as my million dollar liability insurance for a year, the same as about 9 restraunt meals including drinks and desert for me and my wife or a month and a halfs worth of groceries.
> 
> If I was synical, I would say the difference in price for the 361 p&c is because stihl recognises that this is a potential risk to there parts monopoly and are acting to close the door where they need to (but were a little disorganised doing it). I dont know but has the cost of a Stihl 66 P&C has come down since they have been available aftermarket?
> ...



I can't agree with you there. Your parts prices must be very high, but a guy making a living with a saw is NOT the guy that should chance failure of any part of the saw, be it bar, chain, clutch, etc. At least bars and chains can be changed on the job, but a motor issue, and it's time to go home for the day! This is the guy that needs the best quality stuff he can get his hands on, and if you really can't make a living and afford to keep the saws running????

Might be time for a career change?


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

The NZ situation is a bit odd - some of the priciest saws (and therefore parts) in the world... Some it has to do with the low $NZ, and some with the markup/distubtion systems. And of course, it's not just saws - just about anything imported.

Oh, for those of you that dont know where NZ is.. everything is hauled 8000 (USA) -12,000 (Germany) miles before it gets there.


----------



## PB (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> The NZ situation is a bit odd - some of the priciest saws (and therefore parts) in the world... Some it has to do with the low $NZ, and some with the markup/distubtion systems. And of course, it's not just saws - just about anything imported.
> 
> Oh, for those of you that dont know where NZ is.. everything is hauled 8000 (USA) -12,000 (Germany) miles before it gets there.



It borders Peru doesn't it?


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

lolol In a sense... justs like it's a state of Australia.. [ducks]


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

lcso10 said:


> In the southeast my list price is $160.45. Maybe they will get there price from my dealer price list.



No end user's going to get it at that price though. My dealers cost is $159.57, but list is $305.84. That just goes to show you the dealer markup though. They're making a killing with a markup like that.


----------



## lcso10 (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> No end user's going to get it at that price though. My dealers cost is $159.57, but list is $305.84. That just goes to show you the dealer markup though. They're making a killing with a markup like that.




I sell by the list price in the book on parts. Some of the times I don't sell at list price when quantity items are bought. (bar, chains,files,etc...) 99.7% of the items in the parts list are sold at list price.


----------



## stihl only (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> No end user's going to get it at that price though. My dealers cost is $159.57, but list is $305.84. That just goes to show you the dealer markup though. They're making a killing with a markup like that.



You have VERY wrong information in that post.

AGAIN, see why me no like price threads???????


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

stihl only said:


> You have VERY wrong information in that post.
> 
> AGAIN, see why me no like price threads???????



What's so wrong? The prices are current as of today according to my dealer.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 3, 2008)

I just checked my fall 2008 MSRP list...Cylinder w/piston, MS-361: $232.70...


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## stihl only (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> What's so wrong? The prices are current as of today.



I have the latest Media Cat information and the kit lists for $217.34 from North East Stihl. I know some areas will have different prices, so that I understand. My point is that my markup is no were near what you are posting, and MY price is really no ones business. 

Some dealers sell at list, some discount, some will sell at list when doing the repair and show less labor, some will sell at discount and show more labor. It's really up to the dealer, and a lot of times it will depend on the customer too. I don't think many would find it a shock that most of my commercial customers will get faster turn around on service and may get some discounts on whole goods and parts. A home owner buying one saw in the mid range class every 20 years, where the margin is very slim, should be able to understand this.

This is supposed to be a living for me and I have to make a profit. If I make $50 on a part, I promise you that most of that goes toward the cost of me running a brick and mortar business and I am in no way making a killing. If I didn't enjoy what I do so much, I could honestly make more money handing out shopping carts and smiley stickers at Walmart.

I'm sure Bailey's wouldn't want you posting the dealer prices on the BB kits through Woodland, just like a lot of Stihl dealers don't like to see their dealer prices listed, and at least through North East Stihl, the numbers you posted were wrong.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 3, 2008)

stihl only said:


> If I make $50 on a part, I promise you that most of that goes toward the cost of me running a brick and mortar business and I am in no way making a killing. If I didn't enjoy what I do so much, I could honestly make more money handing out shopping carts and smiley stickers at Walmart.



It's all a part of keeping the doors open and the lights on...


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

lcso10 said:


> In the southeast my list price is $160.45. Maybe they will get there price from my dealer price list. That would even be less than $88.00





stihl only said:


> I have the latest Media Cat information and the kit lists for $217.34 from North East Stihl. I know some areas will have different prices, so that I understand. My point is that my markup is no were near what you are posting, and MY price is really no ones business.
> 
> Some dealers sell at list, some discount, some will sell at list when doing the repair and show less labor, some will sell at discount and show more labor. It's really up to the dealer, and a lot of times it will depend on the customer too. I don't think many would find it a shock that most of my commercial customers will get faster turn around on service and may get some discounts on whole goods and parts. A home owner buying one saw in the mid range class every 20 years, where the margin is very slim, should be able to understand this.
> 
> ...



Why are you so defensive? Someone before me posted the price of $160, which I didn't believe. So I called my dealer and posted what he told me. So it wasn't me that posted it. If my numbers are wrong, well that you would have to take up with my dealer then. I'm simply telling you what he told me today. Maybe these kits aren't up to snuff with OEM, but the ones I see doing most of the complaining are the dealers. They've got the most to loose. It's called capitalism!


----------



## stihl only (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Why are you so defensive? Someone before me posted the price of $160, which I didn't believe. So I called my dealer and posted what he told me. So it wasn't me that posted it. If my numbers are wrong, well that you would have to take up with my dealer then. I'm simply telling you what he told me today. Maybe these kits aren't up to snuff with OEM, but the ones I see doing most of the complaining are the dealers. They've got the most to loose. It's called capitalism!



What he quoted, and it sounded too low, was LIST, not cost.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

stihl only said:


> What he quoted, and it sounded too low, was LIST, not cost.



Yes, I think there is some confusion on terminology here. I was confused myself but assumed the poster knew better than me. List would be the $305.84 number my dealer gave me, which is what I thought they cost. That's what I was quoted more than a year ago when I needed one.


----------



## stihl only (Dec 3, 2008)

stihl only said:


> What he quoted, and it sounded too low, was LIST, not cost.



Also, if he is your dealer then he has something to loose too but I don't think that is the point. I just don't know why he would give you cost and list figures, right or wrong, knowing that you were going to post them on the web???

I have been doing this long enough to know how hard price drives things. To the point, that saws like Poulan still exist. Everyone wants a Stihl, Husqvarna, J Red, etc, but they want them at a Poulan price.

I actually have absolutely nothing to loose if a BB kit is $2.99 because most of my customers don't mod saws, and many don't work on saws. My arguement was not about OEM vs BB, and if the BB was at a bolt it on and still sleep well at night level, it could actually help a dealer be able to repair otherwise too costly to repair saws. 

I'm not being defensive at all, I just don't like dealer pricing information plastered on the web, right or wrong, and I can't be the only dealer with this view.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

stihl only said:


> I'm not being defensive at all, I just don't like dealer pricing information plastered on the web, right or wrong, and I can't be the only dealer with this view.



I was shocked to the OP post it as well. When said list was $160 and not cost I was a little confused as well. I understand what you're saying.


----------



## lcso10 (Dec 3, 2008)

I was just telling you what was in my book for list price (not cost). I dont know, but would have to think the price(s) differences would be in the distributor. My supplier is one of the few independent Stihl distributors left in the USA. I would have not thought that there would be that much difference throughout the lower 48.


----------



## gonecountry (Dec 3, 2008)

ANYWAY I thought this thread was suppose to stay on topic  

So how is that saw running today Brad?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

gonecountry said:


> ANYWAY I thought this thread was suppose to stay on topic
> 
> So how is that saw running today Brad?



LOL. As most of you know, I have no wood at my home to cut. But today I was down at my daughters school and one of the groundskeepers was working on some of the remnants of Ike. I'm going to get to use the BB kits on some of that wood. So I should get them in some wood later this week.


----------



## Stihl 041S (Dec 3, 2008)

And everyone buys all their car parts at trhe dealer only..........


----------



## spacemule (Dec 3, 2008)

lcso10 said:


> I was just telling you what was in my book for list price (not cost). I dont know, but would have to think the price(s) differences would be in the distributor. My supplier is one of the few independent Stihl distributors left in the USA. I would have not thought that there would be that much difference throughout the lower 48.



Are you sure you priced the cylinder and piston instead of just a cylinder?


----------



## lcso10 (Dec 3, 2008)

gonecountry said:


> ANYWAY I thought this thread was suppose to stay on topic
> 
> Yes you are correct and I appoligize for causing a curve in the road.


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> No end user's going to get it at that price though. My dealers cost is $159.57, but list is $305.84. That just goes to show you the dealer markup though. They're making a killing with a markup like that.



I believe your dealer is using last years pricing... or maybe he has one in stock to move. That's what we paid last year... but it changed to $212 January 20th or so to align it with the rest of the country. The current price (StihlNW) I just checked online is $220.90. Dealer cost is significantly lower... and dealers can sell for whatever price they like, higher or lower.


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Gotta ask ya Brad*

I saw another thread you started about a BB kit for the 7900, a proto type. Now I see you got another BB kit for the 361, a proto type. Its seems you've been chosen to test these kits and thats cool beans to me. My question is are you being supplied these kits for free? If not you should be. If your testing them on your own saws you should be getting these kits at no cost to you at all and quite frankly should be paid for your time testing them. Your providing not only the maker of these kits but those that sell them a great service and you should be paid for it.. 

BTW great pics and good threads with these kits. Some good info and reading in these threads of yours, keep up the good work...


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> I believe your dealer is using last years pricing... or maybe he has one in stock to move. That's what we paid last year... but it changed to $212 January 20th or so to align it with the rest of the country. The current price (StihlNW) I just checked online is $220.90. Dealer cost is significantly lower... and dealers can sell for whatever price they like, higher or lower.



On the money. I'll sell 361 piston and cylinders all day long for less than 200.00 but the problem is that dayumm saw never seems to need one, grrrrrrrrrrrrr, great saw for the user, not a good saw for the shop at all. I've replaced exactly one and that was for a member on here. One cylinder and piston out of all the 361's out there, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

Yep.... seems like a bullet proof design (and "chrome bore"), even with all the user abuse. I've been sitting on a new P&C forever (year or two...).... One day...


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Yep.... seems like a bullet proof design (and "chrome bore"), even with all the user abuse. I've been sitting on a new P&C forever (year or two...).... One day...



No kidding. I have no cylinders and pistons in stock for the 361, none. Calls for them, none. Its not a shop friendly saw at all, likes living in the woods, dayumm that saw, no repair money on those dayumm things,:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

Too bad the filters are so poor on the 361. You wouldn't have to be installing so many P&Cs:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

yep, they must be garbage.:biggrinbounce2:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

Does logic then suggest that these BB kits are designed for us modders? There has to be some developement cost here. I wonder what sales will look like. I can see the 7900BB being a lot bigger seller since it fits several difference models and is a common upgrade, at least around here.


----------



## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

My 361 filter had 2 pin holes on opposite corners near the alignment tabs in the plastic. I plugged them and no more problem.


----------



## Lakeside53 (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Does logic then suggest that these BB kits are designed for us modders? There has to be some developement cost here. I wonder what sales will look like. I can see the 7900BB being a lot bigger seller since it fits several difference models and is a common upgrade, at least around here.



Has to be.... but a small market for both.

Stihl sells very few 361 top-ends... and few burnt-up saws are available. Maybe in a few more years.. but...

The only problem with the 7900 sales theory is that there many many times the sales of 361 than all 6401 and 7900 saws... 


And.... both these saw lines finish production before 2010...


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Too bad the filters are so poor on the 361. You wouldn't have to be installing so many P&Cs:hmm3grin2orange:



Yeah, know whatcha mean. I have 2 or 3 filters on the shelf for the 361. I thought I would need alot more considering how many 361's I've sold. I figured well I'll get in 3 and order more later. Later never came, them dayummm filters are still sitting on the shelf, sold none. People clean em or don't clean em , I really don't know, I never see the saw again. I really don't like that saw, its not a shop man's friend at all,grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..


----------



## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> Yeah, know whatcha mean. I have 2 or 3 filters on the shelf for the 361. I thought I would need alot more considering how many 361's I've sold. I figured well I'll get in 3 and order more later. Later never came, them dayummm filters are still sitting on the shelf, sold none. People clean em or don't clean em , I really don't know, I never see the saw again. I really don't like that saw, its not a shop man's friend at all,grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..



Would it be like passing gas in church to ask what a 361 filter costs new? Im just curious.


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> Would it be like passing gas in church to ask what a 361 filter costs new? Im just curious.



Bout that much,:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blackoak (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> Yeah, know whatcha mean. I have 2 or 3 filters on the shelf for the 361. I thought I would need alot more considering how many 361's I've sold. I figured well I'll get in 3 and order more later. Later never came, them dayummm filters are still sitting on the shelf, sold none. People clean em or don't clean em , I really don't know, I never see the saw again. I really don't like that saw, its not a shop man's friend at all,grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..


Which model out of all the Stihl saws that you sell is the one you do see the most that comes in for repair?
I'm thinking probably the MS290 since that's Stihls # one seller and there are a bunch of them out there being used by people that have never heard of the word maintenance. Very seldom is it the saws fault.


----------



## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> Bout that much,:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



All right then, I'll price locally, and get my dealer discount. Im getting tired of the Stihl "super secret" pricing crap. No wonder people have started buying aftermarket. Im not busting on you THall, please dont think that, but I disagree with a few of Stihl's marketing policies.


----------



## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> All right then, I'll price locally, and get my dealer discount. Im getting tired of the Stihl "super secret" pricing crap. No wonder people have started buying aftermarket. Im not busting on you THall, please dont think that, but I disagree with a few of Stihl's marketing policies.



Hold on, I'll take a look..


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## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

blackoak said:


> Which model out of all the Stihl saws that you sell is the one you do see the most that comes in for repair?
> I'm thinking probably the MS290 since that's Stihls # one seller and there are a bunch of them out there being used by people that have never heard of the word maintenance.



Just in the past 4 months I have worked at a place that sells and services Stihl, I have seen a lot of 026, 025, 180, and 170's come in for service, repair and snafu's. Snafus's are almost always lack of maintenance.


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

blackoak said:


> Which model out of all the Stihl saws that you sell is the one you do see the most that comes in for repair?
> I'm thinking probably the MS290 since that's Stihls # one seller and there are a bunch of them out there being used by people that have never heard of the word maintenance. Very seldom is it the saws fault.



More 250's than 290's, homeowners leavem sit for months on in, old gas most times..


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> All right then, I'll price locally, and get my dealer discount. Im getting tired of the Stihl "super secret" pricing crap. No wonder people have started buying aftermarket. Im not busting on you THall, please dont think that, but I disagree with a few of Stihl's marketing policies.



Yikessssssssssssssss, $28.00

Just for the record I've never sold one and I didn't realise they cost that much, man thats costly. Lucky for my customers though I would pull that price down some, more like around 20 bucks, thats seems more resonable to me..


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## volks-man (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> On the money. I'll sell 361 piston and cylinders all day long for less than 200.00 but the problem is that dayumm saw never seems to need one, grrrrrrrrrrrrr, great saw for the user, not a good saw for the shop at all. I've replaced exactly one and that was for a member on here. One cylinder and piston out of all the 361's out there, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.



thank you, thank you very much!
(volks-man takes a bow)

you _THE MAN,_ Mr. Hall.


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## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2008)

Now that I have successfuly derailed Brad's thread, I put a new chainbrake setup on an early 026 today, and I had to scrape for a while to find the air filter. Just about made me sick. Ironic thing was I popped the muffler cover off and the piston and cylinder looked perfect. The saw started and ran perfectly as well. I just cant understand why some people cant grasp the idea of maintenance.


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> Just in the past 4 months I have worked at a place that sells and services Stihl, I have seen a lot of 026, 025, 180, and 170's come in for service, repair and snafu's. Snafus's are almost always lack of maintenance.



Exactly, neglect is the biggest problem. Speaking of the 290's though, those saws seem to have the most forgiving carb. I rarely ever replace one and I get those saws in with foul fuel all the time. The smaller saws though, those small carbs on them aren't nearly as forgiving..


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

volks-man said:


> thank you, thank you very much!
> (volks-man takes a bow)
> 
> you _THE MAN,_ Mr. Hall.



Pleasure was all mine, thanks to you I got to tear into my one and only 361
and I found it to be quite fun, I hate those saws, rarely do they ever break down,LOL


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## blackoak (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> More 250's than 290's, homeowners leavem sit for months on in, old gas most times..


About 95% of the saws I wrench on have fuel related problems. First thing I always do is pop the gas cap and take a whiff. Most of the time I can tell that it's going to be fuel related by just looking at the guy that brings it in. They don't have grease under their nails and are wearing loafers.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## volks-man (Dec 3, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> Pleasure was all mine, thanks to you I got to tear into my one and only 361
> and I found it to be quite fun, I hate those saws, rarely do they ever break down,LOL



staying slightly on snellings topic....

did you ever carve up the old p/c? what were your results, pray tell?


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

blackoak said:


> About 95% of the saws I wrench on have fuel related problems. First thing I always do is pop the gas cap and take a whiff. Most of the time I can tell that it's going to be fuel related by just looking at the guy that brings it in. They don't have grease under their nails and are wearing loafers.:hmm3grin2orange:



Hey I never thought of that. I'm gonna give that a try, seriously, I am.

Uh sir according to your finger nails there,hahaha

I'm gonna have me some fun,LOLOLOL


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

volks-man said:


> staying slightly on snellings topic....
> 
> did you ever carve up the old p/c? what were your results, pray tell?



Stihl told me to take your cylinder and piston on home, they didn't want it back. I grinded the exhaust port a mile too much and ruined it though. I went to put it together and sumthing went ouch, got hung up. You coulda drove a truck thur that exhaust post after I got done ruining it,LOL I still got your piston here though, may come in handly one day, never know....


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## THALL10326 (Dec 3, 2008)

*Getting back on topic*

I was thinking Brad, those BB kits. Seems since they are enlarging the bore I think they would go ahead and port them kits as well. Seems people buying them are thinking more power as well as saving cost over OEM. If I were the maker the ports would be done and advertised for a certain type of cutting. That would make them babies fly off the shelf...


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2008)

Shouldn't be hard to do. That would make a lot of engine builders unhappy.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 3, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Shouldn't be hard to do. That would make a lot of engine builders unhappy.



Nah. No cylinder manufacturer will ever be able to completely replicate all the little things an engine builder does...


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 4, 2008)

The 056M2 was ported by Stihl NW... and then made by Mahle to those specs  You can see the tooling cutter marks where they rasied the exhaust port.


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## windthrown (Dec 4, 2008)

THALL10326 said:


> I was thinking Brad, those BB kits. Seems since they are enlarging the bore I think they would go ahead and port them kits as well. Seems people buying them are thinking more power as well as saving cost over OEM. If I were the maker the ports would be done and advertised for a certain type of cutting. That would make them babies fly off the shelf...



Not a bad idea there Tommy. Must be a fat market in there someplace. I would buy a ported jug for one of my 361s. 

The _Shelby_ MS 361


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## TimberMcPherson (Dec 4, 2008)

stihl only said:


> I can't agree with you there. Your parts prices must be very high, but a guy making a living with a saw is NOT the guy that should chance failure of any part of the saw, be it bar, chain, clutch, etc. At least bars and chains can be changed on the job, but a motor issue, and it's time to go home for the day! This is the guy that needs the best quality stuff he can get his hands on, and if you really can't make a living and afford to keep the saws running????
> 
> Might be time for a career change?



You wouldnt be saying this if YOU had to pay 3 time more for your parts and equipment and werent covered as well by warrentys. You wouldnt be a dealer by any chance would you?
So your vehicles only get serviced by the dealer and you insist on only genuine parts? Please answer that question.
I run my business and all my saws successfully. I do it by being smart about what I buy, how I buy and when I buy. I take risks with aftermarket parts all the time, and its well worth it, if I relied on stihl parts only I would be poorer, have less running saws (because I couldnt afford the parts) and probably have to have more echos and less stihls or huskys. 

Stihl and Husky dont work by the idea of free market or open competition, they prefer tell us what we can buy, how much we have to pay and where we get it from. Unlike stihl and husky dealers I cant kick and scream until its organised so my customers have little choice but to get there tree services from my company locally or not at all. 

Great posts Brad, keep it up, really interesting stuff, good to get such detailed info and insite. And THANK YOU BAILEYS! (if you need spare wood to test the 361 on I have plenty although its on steep ground)


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## forestryworks (Dec 4, 2008)

that's a big tree and steep ground mcpherson, stay balanced!


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## Grande Dog (Dec 5, 2008)

stihl only said:


> I can't agree with you there. Your parts prices must be very high, but a guy making a living with a saw is NOT the guy that should chance failure of any part of the saw, be it bar, chain, clutch, etc. At least bars and chains can be changed on the job, but a motor issue, and it's time to go home for the day! This is the guy that needs the best quality stuff he can get his hands on, and if you really can't make a living and afford to keep the saws running????
> 
> Might be time for a career change?


If you're putting food on the table with your chainsaw, and you only drag one to the woods with you, the setters will be calling you "slim" real quick.


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## bigjake (Dec 5, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> Just an observation... it amazes me that a company would spend the money to copy a piston/cylinder and still screw it up. Why would you make a prototype that doesn't have the decomp located corrrectly and a skirt a width that fits the crankcase (ignoring the oval issue)? It's not like this is the first time this has happened... (046BB, 066BB) sure, maybe not all Stihl cases are the same, but that's part of the copy process -get enough target samples to make something that works. The autoparts industry has "plug and play" down... Looks like AS users are beta testers again and again... Even Brad is only a sample of 1.



I have seen this in aftermarket blocks its due to cast shifts in the 3rd world
they still use lost sand and they are not very consistent .what i was told anyway.


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## parrisw (Dec 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Lakeside53 View Post
> Just an observation... it amazes me that a company would spend the money to copy a piston/cylinder and still screw it up. Why would you make a prototype that doesn't have the decomp located corrrectly and a skirt a width that fits the crankcase (ignoring the oval issue)? It's not like this is the first time this has happened... (046BB, 066BB) sure, maybe not all Stihl cases are the same, but that's part of the copy process -get enough target samples to make something that works. The autoparts industry has "plug and play" down... Looks like AS users are beta testers again and again... Even Brad is only a sample of 1.



Maybe they copied it somewhat, but it is bigger bore?? So maybe thats the reason whey the clearance issues. Small deal to sort out.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 5, 2008)

"Small details" just show sloppiness in manf, QA and QC, and willingness of the customer to accept that. QA/QC should be against a basic engineering spec covering all aspects of the design. The next 10 may be fine, but the 5 after that may not... Which will you get? Sure, Baileys is decent about replacing defective parts, but that's of little interest to me. Hey, I'll pay 50% more for assured quality in aftermarket part... Sure wish Tecomec would make parts for more models...


The case binding "fix" on the 066BB was to hack off (shorten) the piston skirt.. great...

IMO.. Ovalness is likely the result of incorrect heat treatment (or the lack thereof) of the raw casting prior to machining, or crappy alloy. Someone with the right tools should check a bunch of these over the entire bore.

Position of the decomp? That shouldn't change even if all they did make a dumb copy.


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## parrisw (Dec 5, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> "Small details" just show sloppiness in manf, QA and QC, and willingness of the customer to accept that. QA/QC should be against a basic engineering spec covering all aspects of the design. The next 10 may be fine, but the 5 after that may not... Which will you get? Sure, Baileys is decent about replacing defective parts, but that's of little interest to me. Hey, I'll pay 50% more for assured quality in aftermarket part... Sure wish Tecomec would make parts for more models...
> 
> 
> The case binding "fix" on the 066BB was to hack off (shorten) the piston skirt.. great...
> ...



Yes I agree about the QA/QC.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 5, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> The 056M2 was ported by Stihl NW... and then made by Mahle to those specs  You can see the tooling cutter marks where they rasied the exhaust port.





windthrown said:


> Not a bad idea there Tommy. Must be a fat market in there someplace. I would buy a ported jug for one of my 361s.
> 
> The _Shelby_ MS 361



The port timing is already slightly different on the other BB kits. I've done about 60 of them so far on various models and I've yet to see one that was dead-on to stock port timing. But then again no manufacturer could possibly account for all the subtle variations that go on with crankcase deck height and older crankcases vs. newer ones, etc.


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## blsnelling (Dec 7, 2008)

Here's the 361BB. Unfortunately the rakers on the chain were too high and it wasn't getting a good bite. Towards the end of the video, I changed chains to the one that was on the 7900BB. Unfortunately, I screwed up with the camera and didn't get much more video of it. You also hear me turn the RPMs up at the end. It was still slightly 4-stroking at 15,200. When I pulled it out of the cut it was 15,500. O wouldn't want to go any leaner with it. I then turned it down to 14,600, It still raun good and seemed to have a little more torque. What really blew me away was when I got home and checked the compression. 185 PSI baby! I kid you not. This thing has more compression and turns more RPMs than my ported OEM P&C. I think this BB kit deserves a port job! It should be a really kick some butt. I'm going to run it just like it is for a while though. Hopefully I can get it to a GTG before I get too ansy with it. I'm way impressed with the performance of this kit.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9T5qUjvfSX4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9T5qUjvfSX4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## RED-85-Z51 (Dec 7, 2008)

15,500....Holy fark!

LONG LIVE THE AFTERMARKET!!! SUCK ON THAT STIHL!


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## bcorradi (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> I guess we'll know in 2011, or maybe 2030 for most homeowner AS guys
> 
> OEM -2500-3000 hours plus...
> 
> For half price can you can get a 1000? hmmmm  I have no idea.. just stirring, but not impressed with any other than Tecomec I've has to fix from the past.


I haven't tried the latest bailey's 361 kits, but I have tried some chinese kits in the past. I don't think they are of extremely bad quality, but I personally will never put a non OEM kit in a saw no matter if its for personal use or for a saw I resell. 

I've sold and rebuilt probably 100 026s along with a small number of 024's on ebay. To this day I haven't had one complaint and I attribute that to using high quality oem parts. Of all the saws I sold I still remember an 024 I sold that I used a non oem piston in and I had to crudely machine the piston bosses to get the wristpin to fit. I still feel guilty about selling that saw, but the new owner hasn't said anything.

Am I against alternative stihl parts....not in the least, but to this day I haven't seen much for comparable OEM parts except from tecomec and stihl that are of hiqh quality and tolerances. 

I'm not trying to throw mud in the water for any of the aftermarket companies, but I'm just speaking from my personal experience. 
Take care,
Brad


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## Haywire Haywood (Dec 7, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> I think this BB kit deserves a port job!



Sounds like it already has a port job. Now ya gotta get a good chain and maybe try it out with an 8 pin to see if it can pull it. 

another thought...
You didn't use a base gasket did you? If it's pulling this many rpms with a lowered exhaust port, the little I know about porting numbers would give me the feeling that the exhaust may be a little on the high side. Put a base gasket in it and you may find a gutless screamer under the cover.

Good start Brad, on with the show!
Ian


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## blsnelling (Dec 7, 2008)

Putting a base gasket in it is not going to affect compression more than probably 10-20 PSI. Compression builds torque and you'd still have more than stock. And you might have more RPMs yet. I think they've got a winner here. I'm not sure how they did it because the exhaust port area isn't near what I have on my ported OEM cylinder.


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## skid row (Dec 7, 2008)

bcorradi said:


> I haven't tried the latest bailey's 361 kits, but I have tried some chinese kits in the past. I don't think they are of extremely bad quality, but I personally will never put a non OEM kit in a saw no matter if its for personal use or for a saw I resell.
> 
> I've sold and rebuilt probably 100 026s along with a small number of 024's on ebay. To this day I haven't had one complaint and I attribute that to using high quality oem parts. Of all the saws I sold I still remember an 024 I sold that I used a non oem piston in and I had to crudely machine the piston bosses to get the wristpin to fit. I still feel guilty about selling that saw, but the new owner hasn't said anything.
> 
> ...



:agree2: :agree2: Nothing but OEM. Ya get what ya pay for.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Putting a base gasket in it is not going to affect compression more than probably 10-20 PSI. Compression builds torque and you'd still have more than stock. And you might have more RPMs yet. I think they've got a winner here. I'm not sure how they did it because the exhaust port area isn't near what I have on my ported OEM cylinder.





lolol.. How did they do it? I doubt they "did" anything. And you think high RPMs are good.. oh well.. for play maybe... Stihl limits the rpm by design, so they don't have to go the "limited coil" route. Mine still "4-strokes" (modded muffer only) above 15k, but it's set closer to 14.

My stock 361 has 168psi... as at yesterday... maybe 100 tanks though it; every one of them 50:1 Ultra.



EDIT: I was wrong.. it's 178.... see later post...


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## 2000ssm6 (Dec 7, 2008)

skid row said:


> :agree2: :agree2: Nothing but OEM. Ya get what ya pay for.



+1, Well said!


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## epicklein22 (Dec 7, 2008)

That thing is BA. I really do think you need to put it together completely stock with a gasket. Nothing swapped but the p&c. 

Anyways, that thing is cooking. A solid log would have been nice to test it on too. Overall, it looks like it will be a winner.


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## epicklein22 (Dec 7, 2008)

bcorradi said:


> I haven't tried the latest bailey's 361 kits, but I have tried some chinese kits in the past. I don't think they are of extremely bad quality, but I personally will never put a non OEM kit in a saw no matter if its for personal use or for a saw I resell.
> 
> I've sold and rebuilt probably 100 026s along with a small number of 024's on ebay. To this day I haven't had one complaint and I attribute that to using high quality oem parts. Of all the saws I sold I still remember an 024 I sold that I used a non oem piston in and I had to crudely machine the piston bosses to get the wristpin to fit. I still feel guilty about selling that saw, but the new owner hasn't said anything.
> 
> ...



Nice to see you posting again Brad!!! Your knowledge, especially on 026s are superb.


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## Metals406 (Dec 7, 2008)

Here's my thought... You make after-market as 'good' as OEM... They'll have to charge the same or more than OEM.

Tighter machine tolerances, tighter casting tolerances, tighter allowances in alloys... More moolah.

Right now, what's the comparison in life expectancy? OEM 2500 hours--after-market 2000 hours? Would the difference in hours be worth the extra cash for OEM? Also, many on here probably have more money to throw at saws than others. Some guys (like my brother) will spend whatever it takes to get 'name-brand', or 'the best'... Money isn't an object.

Thanks again Brad, for sharing this process with us!


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

From what I've seen life expectancy of the current crop of Asian P&C is WAY WAY less than 2000 hours... but the bigger problem is consistancy... some may last a decent amount of time, some will not. Which did you buy?


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## Metals406 (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> From what I've seen life expectancy of the current crop of Asian P&C is WAY WAY less then 2000 hours... but the bigger problem is consistancy... some may last a decent amount of time, some will not. Which did you buy?



The 500 hour difference was in example, and purely hypothetical. I would agree about the inconsistency thing (based on what I've seen here, and other places), and they would do better to at least improve that issue.

But I believe my statement is valid... The better they make it, the more it will cost the end-user. So then--why not just buy OEM?


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## Wet1 (Dec 7, 2008)

Why not buy OEM, because OEM doesn't offer a BB option. At least that's one big reason why I have an interest in these aftermarket P&C's...


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## blsnelling (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> lolol.. How did they do it? I doubt they "did" anything. And you think high RPMs are good.. oh well.. for play maybe... Stihl limits the rpm by design, so they don't have to go the "limited coil" route. Mine still "4-strokes" (modded muffer only) above 15k, but it's set closer to 14.
> 
> My stock 361 has 168psi... as at yesterday... maybe 100 tanks though it; every one of them 50:1 Ultra.



My 361 stock did not 4-stroke above 14K. In fact, it cut best at 13,500. Modded it cuts best at 15,100. High RPMs are good if you have the torque to go with it. A saw with the exhaust port raised to get the RPMs up at the sacrifice of compression will be a dog. That is not the case with this BB kit. It saw has way more RPMs and compression than stock. I call that the best of both worlds.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

Compression? put the gasket back it.. it will likely be about the same as mine.. Something was bugging me about the the reading to mentioned (yesterday was a tough day..).

Just tried it again.... it's 178.. (my gauge leaks slightly so the needle had dropped a tad before I took the pic, but it read true). Saw was cold, as with the prior reading. Stihl ultra, 50:1.


I see a lot of 361s though the store, and all have reading like this when in decent shape. I have some very high time saws that are beat to crap, and these still show 155.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> But I believe my statement is valid... The better they make it, the more it will cost the end-user. So then--why not just buy OEM?



yep...


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> If any of you guys have "true reading" compression gauges... Check your 361
> 
> Mine comes in at 178 stock (gasket and not ported..)... and most I read are 165-180... What's yours?




I just (40 minutes ago ) had another from a tree service (muffler now modded). 10 tank of gas, all synth (not sure which) - 175lb cold.


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## Bowtie (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> I just (40 minutes ago ) had another from a tree service (muffer now modded). 10 tank of gas, all synth (not sure which) - 175lb cold.



Hmmm. my gauge must be reading low. even my freshest saw with a lower jug now shows 165 on my current gauge.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 7, 2008)

Bowtie said:


> Hmmm. my gauge must be reading low. even my freshest saw with a lower jug now shows 165 on my current gauge.



What's your altitude?


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## ericjeeper (Dec 7, 2008)

*My 346*

has 195 psi compression.


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## Bowtie (Dec 7, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> What's your altitude?



1222 ASL


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## 24d (Dec 8, 2008)

Does altitude effect mostly horse power or tork and are saws modded differently to compensate for it?

Later,


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2008)

Lakeside53 said:


> My stock 361 has 168psi... as at yesterday... maybe 100 tanks though it; every one of them 50:1 Ultra.
> 
> EDIT: I was wrong.. it's 178.... see later post...



How in the world can this be Andy? I've never seen a stock Stihl saw have that kind of compression. I'm at about 600 feet elevation here, so it's not altitude. I've got a 064 here that's pulling just shy of 170 and that a first for me. Is it possible they've tightened the combustion chamber on the 361?


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## timberwolf (Dec 8, 2008)

Some of the newer saw designs are running higher compression. Highest I have seen yet is Solo 681 at 182 psi bone stock with base gasket installed.


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## breymeyerfam (Dec 8, 2008)

checked my comp on my 361 last night and it was 180. bought it in 2004


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2008)

Here's the gallery with all the pictures in it. If one of the mods can allow me to edit my first or two, I'll repair the links. PICTURES


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## trimmmed (Dec 8, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> Here's the gallery with all the pictures in it. If one of the mods can allow me to edit my first or two, I'll repair the links. PICTURES



I can't change the edit time frame, but I can re- insert your pics if you want. You are talking about the 7900 thread, right? If that works for you, just pm me the approp links and tell me which post to put them in.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 8, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> How in the world can this be Andy? I've never seen a stock Stihl saw have that kind of compression. I'm at about 600 feet elevation here, so it's not altitude. I've got a 064 here that's pulling just shy of 170 and that a first for me. Is it possible they've tightened the combustion chamber on the 361?



I'm at 400, and at work I'm about 140. The 361 is definitely higher than most other Stihl saws I measure, so yes, it's likely by desgn.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 8, 2008)

blsnelling said:


> My 361 stock did not 4-stroke above 14K. In fact, it cut best at 13,500. .



Just another data point. Last night, while tuning I played with the 361 I muffler modded (my usual 16mm mod). It clearly 4 stroked to about 15k. With the stock muffler, I have difficulty hearing them 4-stroke at all (they do.. it's me). 

I set it at 14k, but the user will no doubt wind it up... he "like's the sound":monkey:


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## Tzed250 (Dec 8, 2008)

Brad, I think you should re-fit the 361BB with the correct base gasket so that apples will be compared to apples...


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## blsnelling (Dec 15, 2008)

Here's the 361BB in the same wood I was testing the little saws in a few days ago. The wood is larger as I have moved up the log. For instance, my 260 cut a 2.15 the other day and cut a 2.50 with the same chain with more work today. I'm really aggrivated though. I have a nearly new MS361 here and ran it with the same bar and chain, and again I screwed up with the camera and didn't get the shot. 

Running very rich at 14K, running a round ground chisel chain. Time was 2.8 seconds.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yo0WbAdM2oo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yo0WbAdM2oo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Tuned to 15,800, running a square ground chain. Time was 2.5 seconds.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QVp1ART2bYc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QVp1ART2bYc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It's as fast as my 260 was today. Remember this saw turns 17K and is ported. So for the 361BB without porting to run with it is pretty good in my books. Time was 2.5 seconds.
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## Metals406 (Dec 15, 2008)

Man, you can really hear the difference between the 14k and 15-8k! Sounds healthier the second tune... Was it just right or too lean?


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2008)

15,800 was right on the edge. I wouldn't go any leaner. 14K was crazy rich. The stock 361 I have here couldn't be turned down below 14,500 with the caps on it. It was still 4-stroking. I run it at 15K for 2-3 cuts but it didn't have the torque there. I'm still ticked I lost the video. I'm almost tempted to put it back together stock just to get the times. But the piston is off, the rings off the piston, the decomp out.... Too much work.


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## Metals406 (Dec 16, 2008)

Maybe right at 15k is money then? 

Thanks again, for taking the time to document this Brad.


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## landyboy (Dec 16, 2008)

Going back to the out of round piston issue; i thought all pistons were machined this way as when hot the piston would become round. Pistons will heat up unevenly because they dont have a uniforn cross section and will therefore not expand at the same rate throughout its circumference.
Most two strokes require a warm up period to allow for expansion otherwise failure can result. 

Cheers Andy.


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## Tzed250 (Dec 16, 2008)

landyboy said:


> Going back to the out of round piston issue; i thought all pistons were machined this way as when hot the piston would become round. Pistons will heat up unevenly because they dont have a uniforn cross section and will therefore not expand at the same rate throughout its circumference.
> Most two strokes require a warm up period to allow for expansion otherwise failure can result.
> 
> Cheers Andy.





It isn't the piston that is out of round...


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## landyboy (Dec 16, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> It isn't the piston that is out of round...



Didnt say it was. posts 23,26,28,29,48, mentioned out of round pistons so i thought i would submit some boring information just to confuse things.


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## Lakeside53 (Dec 16, 2008)

The bore is out of round...


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## PistonBroke (Dec 17, 2008)

Great post Brad!!!!

Thanks for taking the time to keep us posted.


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