# Arborists charge too much for tree work!!!!



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 5, 2007)

*It's been awhile - and i remember why!*

Flippity dippity do. I haven't logged onto this site for over 6 months and now i remember why. I get so sick of the "arborists" calling the others (myself included) a hack! it's so 3 yr oldish. I try to provide a service for customers in my local area at a fair price. They don't want to pay $1100 bucks to take down a 100ft pine tree next to the house. Well,.... forget it. No use in explaining myself. I guess you "arborists" will always have us hacks to make fun of - but i know i'll sleep alot better at night knowing i didn't "stick it to somebody." I'm outta here.:angry2:


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 5, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Flippity dippity do. I haven't logged onto this site for over 6 months and now i remember why. I get so sick of the "arborists" calling the others (myself included) a hack! it's so 3 yr oldish. I try to provide a service for customers in my local area at a fair price. They don't want to pay $1100 bucks to take down a 100ft pine tree next to the house. Well,.... forget it. No use in explaining myself. I guess you "arborists" will always have us hacks to make fun of - but i know i'll sleep alot better at night knowing i didn't "stick it to somebody." I'm outta here.:angry2:



Ok if you think that is sticking it to someone why don't you go 
legitimate pay insurance,license,advertising etc. 100 ft pine
that is way too low if cleaned up and if tricky too low to piece
down! I am not calling you a hack I don't know you but for you
to better understand you need to enjoy the cost of being in 
business rather than shooting off your mouth to people that are.
I will tell you the fines for doing business without the proper license
are astonishingly high.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 5, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok if you think that is sticking it to someone why don't you go legitimate pay insurance,license,advertising etc. 100 ft pine that is way too low if cleaned up and if tricky too low to piece down!



So let's say it takes 6 hrs for that pine to come down and get cleaned up and hauled away, and there is a 3 man crew at $60/mhr

(60*3)*6=1080 

And you still have to dispose of the wood.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 5, 2007)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> So let's say it takes 6 hrs for that pine to come down and get cleaned up and hauled away, and there is a 3 man crew at $60/mhr
> 
> (60*3)*6=1080
> 
> And you still have to dispose of the wood.



Ok feller I have seen many large pines here that six hours
let just say there aint no superman and I don't pay all the
money to be legit to make nothing. A hundred foot pine here
in tight quarters will be forty to fifty inch diameter at fifty
feet tall and if care must be taken to bring it down I am
not going to put estimate that causes a rush job.Also 
cleanup will take longer than six hours I don't know
how you figure your jobs but I would rather be adequate
to cover risk and time.


----------



## clearance (Dec 5, 2007)

I have cut down many pines (this province is in the midst of a pine beetle epidemic). I don't think it has taken me more than an hour to put any one of them on the ground. Of course I just strip and chunk if I can't fall it. The lady was not too specific, details, details please.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 5, 2007)

clearance said:


> I have cut down many pines (this province is in the midst of a pine beetle epidemic). I don't think it has taken me more than an hour to put any one of them on the ground. Of course I just strip and chunk if I can't fall it. The lady was not too specific, details, details please.



Said it was by the house here in my area means flower gardens
gazebos and sod I would like to see some of the ones I do done
safely and without damage in one hour:hmm3grin2orange:
Clearance bc woods is way different than mainstream America!


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 6, 2007)

Okay - i wasn't going to log back on, but curiosity got the best of me. For the record, i Do have a 1 million dollar liability policy, 2 men on the ground, I don't advertise (other than yard signs) because i get more work than i can handle by word of mouth. I've been told several times that i do a much better clean up job than the local certified arborist. He usually works by himself and charges nearly double of what i do. I climb everything (
and no i don't buy the brown rope from Home Depot)- don't own a bucket - have a 91 model 250 bandit chipper, LX665 New Holland skid steer, dump trailer and a 98 model dodge cummins to pull it all with. Oh yeah, i got 4 huskies and one Solo top handle that i just bought and don't really know if i like! 

Back to the tree - I have cut 3 almost just like this before. Yes it is about 8 feet from a house with nowhere to throw it. Everything will come down on a rope - I will have to block down approx 4ft long pieces of the main stem so my groundies can handle it without too much trouble. Once i get it down to about 40 feet, i can drop the whole thing. As for the wood - we have a recycling center here where we dump for free and they shred and sell the pulp to a local mill. I will try to give you a report when i finish up today and let you know the time frame. My prediction is 3.5 hrs. so, if 6 hrs = 1080 then 3.5 is about 600 - Well, i'm charging 450 and giving the homeowner a break because this is the 2nd tree i've cut for him and i have another just down the street (close enough to drive my skid steer to). Not to mention he gave his dad my name and i did a $2200 job for him last year. 

I'm not trying to cause a big ruckus, i just had to vent - sorry.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 6, 2007)

Oh, and clearance - MS stands for Mississippi, not misses!!!! I'm hung just like you are bud! hahha


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 6, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Okay - i wasn't going to log back on, but curiosity got the best of me. For the record, i Do have a 1 million dollar liability policy, 2 men on the ground, I don't advertise (other than yard signs) because i get more work than i can handle by word of mouth. I've been told several times that i do a much better clean up job than the local certified arborist. He usually works by himself and charges nearly double of what i do. I climb everything (
> and no i don't buy the brown rope from Home Depot)- don't own a bucket - have a 91 model 250 bandit chipper, LX665 New Holland skid steer, dump trailer and a 98 model dodge cummins to pull it all with. Oh yeah, i got 4 huskies and one Solo top handle that i just bought and don't really know if i like!
> 
> Back to the tree - I have cut 3 almost just like this before. Yes it is about 8 feet from a house with nowhere to throw it. Everything will come down on a rope - I will have to block down approx 4ft long pieces of the main stem so my groundies can handle it without too much trouble. Once i get it down to about 40 feet, i can drop the whole thing. As for the wood - we have a recycling center here where we dump for free and they shred and sell the pulp to a local mill. I will try to give you a report when i finish up today and let you know the time frame. My prediction is 3.5 hrs. so, if 6 hrs = 1080 then 3.5 is about 600 - Well, i'm charging 450 and giving the homeowner a break because this is the 2nd tree i've cut for him and i have another just down the street (close enough to drive my skid steer to). Not to mention he gave his dad my name and i did a $2200 job for him last year.
> ...


Deals I have gave deals and the time frame you are speaking of
tells me the tree is more like 70 feet and smaller in diameter
than my thinking and the fact you can fall 40 foot of it is
another is it 20 inch diam? 
450.00 is not much of a tree I do some pines for that
usually skinny!


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 6, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok feller I have seen many large pines here that six hours
> let just say there aint no superman and I don't pay all the
> money to be legit to make nothing. A hundred foot pine here
> in tight quarters will be forty to fifty inch diameter at fifty
> ...



I've done a number of white pines that were 90-100ft tall and under 36 in @ 30 ft Which is the bar size of my 384 and around where I've usually left the spar.

I was figuring best case outcome on a semi technical rig job.



> have a 91 model 250 bandit chipper, LX665 New Holland skid steer, dump trailer and a 98 model dodge cummins to pull it all with.... i'm charging 450 and giving the homeowner



If that is how you have all that on site, I think you are cheating yourself with a 3 man crew. 

Do you come back for the wood at a later date, or are you running 2 trucks?

The loader helps speed things up, but you should have billable hours on it, at least equal to 1/2 Mhr.

This really should be moved to a different forum


----------



## clearance (Dec 6, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Oh, and clearance - MS stands for Mississippi, not misses!!!! I'm hung just like you are bud! hahha



Goodness, how embarrasing.

Hung like me, now thats saying a lot.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 6, 2007)

Sorry about being so off topic - i won't comment on it anymore after this. Just wanted to say that it was 112 feet tall with 31" diam. We pulled away from the job right at 10:30 after getting there at 7. However, i did have to go back and pick up the main stem of the tree (about 48 ft, along with my skid steer - it all fit on my 22 ft gooseneck). That took an extra 45 min. I've got some pics of the job and i'll try to put them in the pics forum. That may explain the situation a little better. No flower beds or anything to dodge, but the homeowner didn't want me to just "bombs away" the blocks. Oh, i did only have one ground man today - but he's a good one! yes, i probably do cheat myself as far as the equipment goes, that's a weakness of mine. 

Again, sorry for sounding so harsh on my original post and for leading clearance's original post astray.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 9, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Sorry about being so off topic - i won't comment on it anymore after this. Just wanted to say that it was 112 feet tall with 31" diam. We pulled away from the job right at 10:30 after getting there at 7. However, i did have to go back and pick up the main stem of the tree (about 48 ft, along with my skid steer - it all fit on my 22 ft gooseneck). That took an extra 45 min. I've got some pics of the job and i'll try to put them in the pics forum. That may explain the situation a little better. No flower beds or anything to dodge, but the homeowner didn't want me to just "bombs away" the blocks. Oh, i did only have one ground man today - but he's a good one! yes, i probably do cheat myself as far as the equipment goes, that's a weakness of mine.
> 
> Again, sorry for sounding so harsh on my original post and for leading clearance's original post astray.



How about the double drive times. Was it really 45min from stop to roll including off loading the logs? 
Were there other jobs that you finished the cleanup on that defrayed the travel cost?

This is where many small operators loose money. They do not count the time it took to get the loader on the truck, off load the waste...ect... take a moment and figure the cost to pay for, run maintain and insure the loader and trailer per year. Divide that by 200 operating days and you will have a rough daily operating cost.

I'm not tying to browbeat you with it, just passing on some lessons and thoughts I've leaned over the years.


----------



## arborworks1 (Dec 9, 2007)

First of you are an arborist, if you go about your daily operations trying to do quality tree work. 

If all the local guys around you priced this tree around a grand why would you cut yourself out of that income. 450 and 1100 is a giant margin, my friend. just my look on it, our bargain tree service priced themselves right out of business. they had tons of work but were taking to long to get to it and started losing clients. then they had equipment troubles and had no money to repair broken crap and folded. 

One other thing Buy equipment that you almost can't afford. don't spend 3000 bucks on a piece that works for 6 months and have to replace it with another 3000 buck piece in the same year.


----------



## Juicemang (Dec 9, 2007)

I********

Whats going to happen when your equipment is breaking down, saws need to be replaced, and your climbing-rigging gear has seen better days? You start cutting into your personal pay if you want to stay in business and keep underbidding. Since your getting paid less you can't buy a quality house, have a nice vehicle, start or take care of a family. Oh and lets not forget about your health insurance and retirement fund.

A fair price is fair to the customer and you. Stop and look at your business and personal assets. You’re cheating yourself out of something because $450 for the job you describe is ridiculous.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 9, 2007)

arborworks1 said:


> If all the local guys around you priced this tree around a grand why would you cut yourself out of that income.



That's not quite where I was going. If he has an economy he can pass on to the market then he can price his work under what the other people do.

I just know a lot of people who have experience with the work who have problems with pricing. They do not look at all the parts of their operation.

So many people who see them self as honest and hard working do not value themselves



> Juicemang ... Instead of bragging about doing a $1000 job for $450, why not just post **** and call it a night.



Maybe I'll say you are retarded for trying to start a flame war. But I wont.  I'll just say you were lacking in judgement and did not realize you do not know the man you "dis'ed". 

Infract you next time (unless someone else already has...)

Maybe it is not a $1000 job for him. Maybe it is just a little underbid because he knew he was getting some more work later.

IMO he is not seeing all the nuts and bolts of his operation, especially if he has to come back as the lead climber, sales man and everything else. Here most people will not return with a loader in tow for less the $300.


----------



## chucknduck (Dec 9, 2007)

You are definately not a hack, with the equipment, insurance, and quality of work you describe. But, you are a lowballer. Sure you make enough money to pay the bills, your crew, yourself, etc, etc. I know that I do trees for several reasons, mainly being that I enjoy it, and I like to make a profit. Tree work Is so risky and dangerous that it should be worth more. Not just anybody can do it well, so if you can do it well, then charge for that expertise! I do tree work because I can make more doing it than most other jobs. But I can't when lowballers outbid me by half


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 9, 2007)

When prices are way too out of whack it hurts the business as
a whole as do illegal's. I ask you if you got in a risky life threatening
biz for peanuts are you any different than a circus animal?
I am considered the mid range bidder in my area and I want to get
higher or paid better as I can't afford health ins or retirement as it
is now. Volume of work is not a reality unless you hire enough employees
to profit as you get older you will understand this. I did not get in biz
to be underpaid or not be able to afford the maintenance on equipment
and thus work unsafe with no health ins!


----------



## OTG BOSTON (Dec 10, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Flippity dippity do. I haven't logged onto this site for over 6 months and now i remember why. I get so sick of the "arborists" calling the others (myself included) a hack! it's so 3 yr oldish. I try to provide a service for customers in my local area at a fair price. They don't want to pay $1100 bucks to take down a 100ft pine tree next to the house. Well,.... forget it. No use in explaining myself. I guess you "arborists" will always have us hacks to make fun of - but i know i'll sleep alot better at night knowing i didn't "stick it to somebody." I'm outta here.:angry2:



SPAM


You DO realize you are on ARBORISTSITE right?


----------



## hornett22 (Dec 10, 2007)

*and pay for gas and oil.*

and insurance on you ,your crew,and your vehicles.i guess equipmnet,labor,and insurance are free in MS.



John Paul Sanborn said:


> So let's say it takes 6 hrs for that pine to come down and get cleaned up and hauled away, and there is a 3 man crew at $60/mhr
> 
> (60*3)*6=1080
> 
> And you still have to dispose of the wood.


----------



## M.D. Vaden (Dec 10, 2007)

This brings a few things to mind.

Starters: every area is different. Our area in Medford, Oregon, seems to have a couple of high price companies, and at least one of them is not a Certified Arborist managed company.

I've run into bidding against one twice, where my $350 bid for 4 hours of shrub & tree pruning with 1 man, contrasts against their $600. Might just be that they are bidding a whole crew where one man is needed. Especially when this contrast pits bids of a double-certification against their no-certification.

Up in Portland, there was one Certified Arborist company that I felt was high a little, and one non-Certified that I felt was through the roof, due to being even higher than the Certified Arborist companies. I mean, I was bidding $600 for 5 to 6 hours, against a bid of over $2000 from this one outfit, and this was for like some hedges and shrub stuff for less than an entire day.

If anyone is in Portland, does pruning with an "Irish" touch ring a bell  

So I won't dispute that some companies are too high or through the roof. And it does not seem that being Certified or not is a label that fits that group.

As far as the entire conglomoration of arborists, doesn't it seem that the "marketplace" itself would weed out a good percentage of companies that are too high via word of mouth, reputations and bid comparisons?


----------



## GottaCut (Dec 10, 2007)

It all depends on how well you can do the job, I just did a job for a guy for less than half what the local big guys bid. Silver maple, 3.5'dbh, 60'tall, 
15'away from the house 2 almost identicle codominant stems. The other bids were between 800-1200, thats just to the ground(homeowner wanted all the wood) my bid was for 375. The HO told me the other guys said they'd have to use their buckets and the tree couldnt be climbed. I said bulls***, he took my bid I climbed it, made one cut on the stem facing the house and took out the top 20' and all that sides limbs, installed a 7/8" Samson bull rope, got down and put a good open notch in her and you know the rest.......
the tree fell on the house!

Yeah right just kidding, I know some of you wouldve gotten a twisted enjoyment outta that! Anyhow all said I cleared probably 250 off that after my gas and giving my ground guy 75 bucks for a hour and half work!


----------



## teamtree (Dec 10, 2007)

I say if you can make money charging less than me then go ahead but I try not to let others 'lowballing' change the way I do business.

I would say most people I know in the tree business just look what they need that day. Few figure in the cost of their retirement, training, down time, travel time, estimating time.


So yes, there are plenty of climbers who go out work an hour or so and have their day made. But it may rain tomorrow.


----------



## Jon Denver (Dec 10, 2007)

I have to say that it is importaint to be a capatilist, were in America right? Charge what the market can bear. When I go and give a bid in prunetucky I know I cant charge as much as when I go give a bid in upper eshalon. Look at the risk, look at the high quality work you will do, competing tree companys (gaining intel helps), and yes, their house and cars. These people usually are not stupid, they know how much good tree work costs. Its about profit, otherwise whats the point. If I did not care about profit I'd stay at home and trim my bonsai trees, thats fun.
Their is a certain group of individuals (we are outnumbered by them) around here where it is in their nature to low ball by many times over 100% of the going rate. That hurts and I probably loose more buissness from these people than anyone else. It has nothing to do with credentials like a license(does not mean #@$% exept to the man and a few homeowners) or insurance(very expensive and you have to have the volume) or even an arborist cert. What matters is what you know and the kind of work you do, efficient, safe and immaculate. The clients want this more than anything else and they will call you back time and time again because they want you to trim their trees. Some of these low ballers to their credit do very good work but I have to agree that it pisses me off only because most of that money they make does not stay in circulation here, ya know.:angry2: and on top of that they drive down prices for every one else here that pays their dues.
It's all about minimizing overhead and maximizing profit.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 10, 2007)

First of all, I DID NOT TITLE MY COMMENT "ARBORISTS CHARGE TOO MUCH" - I don't know who did that! That wasn't even the direction that i was going with my comment. I was trying to emphasize that just because i don't have my ISA license (or whatever it's called) doesn't mean that i can't do as good of a job as someone who does. Then, some of the locals that are - don't do as thorough of a clean up job as i do. I'm not knocking anyone - i just get tired of being knocked for not having mine. Anyways, I'll try to have some pictures up of the job i was discussing later tonight. I was preoccupied this weekend - My wife and i just had our first baby - it's a boy! Maybe that'll excuse some of my hostility and tension last week. I'm normally not a griper! I think i was just full of emotions and had to vent!  Thanks for not being to rough with me. (except for the retard and lowballer comment)

2 quick comments:

No i'm not a lowballer - :monkey: we have 2 of those around here that find out what you're bidding and tell the customer they'll do it for 75 bucks less. I don't need a customer that's gonna fall for that trick! 

No - i'm not a retarded.:angry2: I had a friend a few years ago that really was (he's passed away now) and he would've beat the punk outta you if you'd a told him that.


----------



## mckeetree (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmmmmmmmmmm.


----------



## Ironxylem (Dec 10, 2007)

Come on where's the Christmas Spirit?

I can quote 20% more than my comp.....I don't show up stinking like booze.
I don't really understand the whole point of this post....maybe thats why I jumped in. 
Hummmm.....
By the way, how do I get some of those fancy green bars?


----------



## DonnyO (Dec 10, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> First of all, I DID NOT TITLE MY COMMENT "ARBORISTS CHARGE TOO MUCH" - I don't know who did that!



flippity dippidy do, must have been one of those Arborists:censored:


----------



## hornett22 (Dec 10, 2007)

*i'm not certified but.............*

this is Connecticut.my property tax just got boosted 600 a month.that is more than i paid for the whole year in Tennessee.every market is different.there is no way i could charge what i do here if i were still in Tennessee.then again,trucks and equipment don't rust down there like they do here either.vehicles cost more there but last a lot longer.it's all relevant to your location.i'm sure vermeer in knoxville charges the same as vermeer in seymor ct though.

you think it's high here,go to the boston area.you ain't seen nothing till you see what they get.granted they have to pay Ted Kennedy's bar tab but that is beside the point.


----------



## Canyonbc (Dec 10, 2007)

hornett22 said:


> this is Connecticut.my property tax just got boosted 600 a month.that is more than i paid for the whole year in Tennessee.every market is different.there is no way i could charge what i do here if i were still in Tennessee.then again,trucks and equipment don't rust down there like they do here either.vehicles cost more there but last a lot longer.it's all relevant to your location.i'm sure vermeer in knoxville charges the same as vermeer in seymor ct though.
> 
> you think it's high here,go to the boston area.you ain't seen nothing till you see what they get.granted they have to pay Ted Kennedy's bar tab but that is beside the point.




I second that. 

Even just the market from San Diego...to Northern California (Sonoma County) can be a big difference and that is 600 miles...let alone different parts of the country.


----------



## diltree (Dec 13, 2007)

You need to stop worrying about the arborist/hack comparison and start worrying about being a better business owner. If your leaving over a 100% out on the table compared to the second bidder then your too way too low. You sound like a descent guy who's starting a family of his own, don't cheat your family out of income buy applying your trade way under market value. Your in a dangerous profession and you put your life on the line anytime you climb, no matter how good or safe you are in the tree. Don't lesson the value of your expertise with low pricing.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 13, 2007)

I'll be the first to admit that i'm not an A-1 business man. I run my business alot different than other guys. Since all my equipment's paid for i have trouble assessing a monthly allotment to put back for it. I do consider wear and tear and general maintenance, but since i don't pay a note, i don't say "well, i have to put away $600/month to pay for the brush bandit." I guess that's the biggest mistake i'm making. If any of you have a budget suggestion, i've got open ears. :monkey:


----------



## Industry (Dec 13, 2007)

I don't own a biz. not yet anyway, but I will be putting away whatever the monthly payment Would be on the piece of equipment I will have to buy when my current one fails. If a new chipper of comparable size is $750 a month then that is what I would put into a savings account under the business. Just an Idea


----------



## hornett22 (Dec 13, 2007)

*repaiirs ain't cheap.*

i'd charge the same as if you had notes on your equipment.stuff wears out and breaks down.how are you going to grow and buy bigger,better,more modern equipment?hire new employees? pay for inflation and the inflated salaries of politicians.congress is going to a 3 day work week next year.you know that is gonna cost us double.


----------



## Monk (Dec 13, 2007)

*Technique*

I think alot of how a person does their job has alot to do with the price of their bidding I would be considered a low baller by most standards. I learned how to trim on a power line and I am very fast and very clean with my work. I have done trees by myself in less time than local crews with a 3 man crew have done similar trees in yes every thing cost money I have a partner we split the profit I figure 200 for my truck and chipper a day 10 dollars for insurance and 40 for misc. thats 250 dollars and I can easily do 2 of the trees described if not 3 or 4 so figure 2 trees at 450 thats 900-250=650/2 =325 a piece that is a damn good days wage in my opinion the 250 a day goes into an account and used for repairs gas ect. and is a nice christmas bonus at the end of the year. I do everything off of hooks also no bucket I might bump the truck up to 250 if I get a bucket. Most guys think they are more qualified than they are and make the job harder than it is. If it takes you more than 6 hours with a 3 man crew to do a 100ft pine you need to reavaluate yourself and crew. I know it would make me wonder if I was in the right profession.



Monk


----------



## diltree (Dec 14, 2007)

Monk said:


> I think alot of how a person does their job has alot to do with the price of their bidding I would be considered a low baller by most standards. I learned how to trim on a power line and I am very fast and very clean with my work. I have done trees by myself in less time than local crews with a 3 man crew have done similar trees in yes every thing cost money I have a partner we split the profit I figure 200 for my truck and chipper a day 10 dollars for insurance and 40 for misc. thats 250 dollars and I can easily do 2 of the trees described if not 3 or 4 so figure 2 trees at 450 thats 900-250=650/2 =325 a piece that is a damn good days wage in my opinion the 250 a day goes into an account and used for repairs gas ect. and is a nice christmas bonus at the end of the year. I do everything off of hooks also no bucket I might bump the truck up to 250 if I get a bucket. Most guys think they are more qualified than they are and make the job harder than it is. If it takes you more than 6 hours with a 3 man crew to do a 100ft pine you need to reavaluate yourself and crew. I know it would make me wonder if I was in the right profession.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## diltree (Dec 14, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> I'll be the first to admit that i'm not an A-1 business man. I run my business alot different than other guys. Since all my equipment's paid for i have trouble assessing a monthly allotment to put back for it. I do consider wear and tear and general maintenance, but since i don't pay a note, i don't say "well, i have to put away $600/month to pay for the brush bandit." I guess that's the biggest mistake i'm making. If any of you have a budget suggestion, i've got open ears. :monkey:



You can always figure the job hourly to come to a reasonable quote on any job. Develop hourly rates for your personnel and different pieces of equiptment, when you bid a job decide who you will need and what equipment will be necessary. Then add your rates and multiply by how many hours it will take you to do the job. This is a very safe and accurate way too bid any job, If your rates and time estimation are accurate you will always be in the ball park.


----------



## Monk (Dec 14, 2007)

*equipment*

Diltree

I charge 200 a day for my chipper and truck 5 days a weeks thats 1000 my chipper payment is 400 a month and my truck is paid for. So I have enough money to make 2 chipper payment and put fuel in both. you guys think equipment is worth more than it is. people can go rent it cheaper than what you want to charge them for it being there. I understand what you are saying diltree but when I can pay for and maintain my equipment for a tenth of what most people charge it would be stupid not to it gets me the bid. Its dog eat dog and I would rather be at the top of the food chain than the bottom. I am doing something right because I normally have more work than I can handle and I haven't spent a dime in advertising.


----------



## grandpatractor (Dec 15, 2007)

MS TreeMonkey said:


> Oh, and clearance - MS stands for Mississippi, not misses!!!! I'm hung just like you are bud! hahha



That's Ok, everyone thinks that Clearance is a really tall guy . All the bridges around here say "Clearance--13'6":jawdrop:


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 15, 2007)

Monk

All the res tree services around here bid/schedule at a rate to make between $1000 - 1400/ day for a 2 man crew with truck and chipper.

I'm not sure if you are considering these items in setting your hourly estimate rates:
- holiday pay for yourself and your crew
- time lost marketing/selling/maintenance
- training costs
- health insurance for you and your partner
- partnership insurance (if one of you was to die/seriously hurt) do you have enough money available to buy out the estate of the other
- lawyer, accounting and bookkeeping fees
- fund to replace/repair broken/stolen/run over saws and other small equip
- enough money to make equipment payments and salaries during slow periods of the year

If your truck blows an engine/tranny etc, you will still be making payments on the chipper, you need a buffer.
I'm not sure if you have a crew, but unless you like to keep retraining new people, then you need to spend some money to keep the ones you have. If you don't have crew, then start thinking about getting some. Rich people never got rich by doing all the work themselves.


----------



## Monk (Dec 15, 2007)

*equipment*

Treeco,

Removals yes I use spikes you would be stupid not to trims most of the time no it depends on the type of tree and what I have to do, if I use them I don't use them until I get up in the tree where they are out of site and if you think that hurts a tree you have been reading to many books and not spending enough time in the feild. 


Wetcoast

I am banking 800 a week for truck repairs and payments a new jasper motor with a 40000 mile warrinty for my trucks was 2200 dollars I don't have to worry about that one for a whileI had enough money in one month to pay for that and make my chipper payment yeah other stuff broke that month but I had alot of time before that where nothing broke. As far as having to buy my partner out I own everything. And as far as a crew there are a couple guys that help me but nothing fulltime just me and my partnerand when we are bothing making 1500 a week so about 1100 after we put back for taxes if you cant put money back for christmas at that you way to many bills. Insurance thats my partners business if he weants he can pay for it I personally only have life.


Monk


----------



## Juicemang (Dec 15, 2007)

"I charge 200 a day for my chipper and truck"

Rental yards in se Michigan want $200 a day for a bandit 6". Are you running a 75% off deal year round monk?


----------



## Sbusta (Dec 15, 2007)

This is a great thread.

I believe tree work can be done at a more reasonable rate than many of us charge. Homeowners over estimate the difficulty of the work & the costs of disposal & many people are scared of chainsaws.

That said it now becomes a choice for each contractor to decide how they want to run the enterprise. Do you want a job or do you want to build a business? 

I don’t believe you can build a service related business on price you will fail in the long run. People will pay for your skills & investment, build a good reputation, get a good crew that you can trust and start managing it.

Pricing work has alway been a dilemma for me, I know the hourly rates I want and normally get far more than I need when quoting. I quote on the basis of what’s this job worth. I don’t get every job but I don’t want every job. If I get a job I didn’t want I make very good money doing it.

I invest heavily in plant & renumerate staff well. I believe this is an industry in which he with the best toys wins and I need good loyal people working with me to achieve my business plan. 

In general my rates are in line with other good operators I tend to make a better hourly rate due to better equipment & maintenance programs & good work ethics form a great team.

Its taken me 4 years I am still on the tools 4 days a week 1 day is for admin. I enjoy what I do my business is still growing, I could not be where I am today if I was not prepared charge out at market rates.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey (Dec 15, 2007)

Sbusta,

I really appreciate your comments on the thread and on the tree service industry in general. 

I love doing the work that i do. People are usually so appreciative of the work i do and they're usually mesmerized by the process I use. As i said, i climb everything, and 85% of the trees i work on are complete removals. They can't believe i'm not scared to death to be 100 ft up in a tree that's swaying 6-8 ft at the top when the wind's blowing. It makes me feel good to be able to provide a service for low-middle class families and still make a good living. 

I always make sure my customers are happy when i finish and that has been my best form of advertising. Fortunately, I have not had to worry about a lack of work. Hopefully, things will continue this way. I'm only 2 years into the business, but i'm lovin' every minute.


----------



## John464 (Dec 15, 2007)

some of you guys need to value yourself. $200 a day. If thats all your intention to make is buy a lawmower and strap it to the roof of your station wagon. Less risk, less expense, less equipment and could make $200 by 10am WTF???? You want to be a business man be business smart!


----------



## Monk (Dec 15, 2007)

*200 a day*

200 is for the chipper and truck I make a minimum of 300 plus 50 for insurance and misc thats 550 a day thats 2750 on a 5 day work week if you think you and a chipper and truck are worth more than that and can get more than that, more power to you. But you better hope that somebody like me that isn't out to screw his neighbor out of everything he can doesn't move in and put you right out of business. I would love to charge someone 1500 dollars for a 100ft pine but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night just because they can't do it themselves doesn't mean I should rape them because I can. As far as growing I don't want to have more than one crew with that comes extreme amounts of overheadand trusting your companys good name to someone else and I have seen to many people lose to much by doing that I am happy with my 1000 to 1200 a week plus the 800 I put back into the company hell no major break downs and at the end of the year I can buy a new chipper with cash. You go to big to quick and then you have to charge to much plus the number of certificates you have seams to go to your head and make you think you are worth more than you are. the professor who made that test was most likely someone that couldn't hack it in the real world so they decide to write a book and make certification course in it, and you guy bought into thinking you are now a step ahead of the game.

And those of you that think spikes are for hacks you are cutting limbs out of a tree if you think that gaff mark is anything compared to that I need to get whatever you are smoking. Or wait let me guess you sanitize your chain and your pruners before every cut. I have been up a ton of trees that have been climbed with hooks many times before and they are still standing, bark has a little scar on it but don't look nothing like where a limb was removed.

Monk


----------



## Jon Denver (Dec 15, 2007)

Sorry Monk but you are really shortchanging yourself dude. I dont even bother waking up and putting on my Carharts unless I net 400 to 500, that means I have to gross a minimum of 800 and really I charge 1000 to 1200 for a full days work with crew and risk and all. Right now I am on a job taking down 100+ Douglass Fir tree's, most pullover backleaners over the house on a 45 degree slope, everything stays, no cleanup for 275 a tree and getting 4 to 5 done a day with just me and my right hand man and if one log rolles down that hill its going right into their living room through the roof. If people around here thought I was ripping them off I would have been out of buissness along time ago.

On the other hand the rent in PA is a far cry from the rent in Santa Cruz. There is no point in even waking up. You are also doing everyone a disservice by not sterilizing your tools.

Around here it is not always the cheapest bidder who gets the job, its who the client thinks is going to do the best job. Thankfully so.

Denver


----------



## Themadd1 (Dec 16, 2007)

We are all still in business for a reason. If you charge less you make less, I doubt most of us are members of the country club but still live comfortable. Do what you want just don't screw your employees.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 16, 2007)

Monk said:


> And those of you that think spikes are for hacks you are cutting limbs out of a tree if you think that gaff mark is anything compared to that I need to get whatever you are smoking. Or wait let me guess you sanitize your chain and your pruners before every cut. I have been up a ton of trees that have been climbed with hooks many times before and they are still standing, bark has a little scar on it but don't look nothing like where a limb was removed.



This is another thread in and of it's self. Actually there are probably at least a dozen here already. It is difficult to respond to a subject that should be a lecture of somewhere around an hour.

The difference between the two types of wounds depends on how the tree worker makes them, and the nature of how wood responds to that wounding.

Let's start with the CODIT model. It is reaction to the wounding in 3 dimensions, plus time which is the new growth. So the loss of storage and conductive tissue does not stop with the immediate wound, but goes on to the reaction zones that make up the CODIT model. This is the discolored wood we see when cutting around old wounds.

CODIT is not active decay, but the responses to wounding and pathogenic activity. So every wound will disrupt the storage and translocation ability in the tree. 

A tree with good vigor and vitality (two different measures of health, one being more genetic, the other situational) can tolerate aggressive treatments that will cause stressed trees to decline.

Trees "try" to compartmentalize the wound, but pathogens will always "try" to defeat that process. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, the strong survive longer then the weak to produce better offspring...

The biggest problem with gaffing and CODIT is that "wall 1" is the trees ability to close off it's own vascular system, which makes it the weakest wall of all 4. (new growth is the strongest, which is why we find strong hollow older trees) 

With wall 1 being weaker, the reaction zones can coalesce from gaff wound to gaff wound up the trunk.

One thing I think we all agree on is that all wounding is bad for a tree in the short term. Pruning is wounding, but if employed with judgment and knowledge for the species growth habits, pruning can help a tree live longer in a landscape.

If most of what you do is cut big limbs off of the trunk, then one can argue that the stresses on the tree are similar. Large wounds without any green mass near by will probably never close, will surely decay, and often will have dieback of cambium under the wound from the lack sufficient supportive chloroplast. (normally I would say dynamic mass here, but then I would have to define dynamic and static mass in a paragraph above somewhere...Are you with me here monk, or did you stop reading after the first few sentences?) 

We've all seen the big wounds with asymetrical wound wood, because the top gets the carbs from the green mass above and very little gets to the bottom of the wound. Even if proper Natural Target Pruning techniques are used, large limb removal can create hazards of decay and root dieback in the long term.

If the arborist is using the his knowledge and judgment while working, does not flush cut, tries to make all wounds as small as possible, then the physiology of the tree can adapt to the loss of the limb and subsequent wounding.

Small wounds, with nearby green mass will close up and allow the branch protection zone to wall off the connected trunk/stem wood. As another aside, groups of small proper cuts, and cause failure in the Compartmentalization process because the cambium looses the nearby transport system and cannot close the wounds up. This causes a coalescence of the wounds and often a large canker.

I'll go back to the recent threads with Jon and Jim. Wounding causes stress in the tree, landscape trees are usually stressed to begin with. 

SO to once again sum it up, excessive wounding of a tree is not good tree care, that is indiscriminate wood cutting. If we are doing tree care, then we should care about what could happen to that tree. 

Yes there are always exceptions to the rule, but a good practitioner of tree care should actually care about the property they are maintaining. 

As Jim said, gaffing is not good for the tree. So I ask, if it is not good for the tree you are being paid to care for, why treat it in that fashion. Just because it is easier?


Lastly, I've tried to lump a lot of ideas into a short space, so if anyone whats to elaborate on a point, or ask a question on it, lets break them off into new threads.


----------



## Mitchell (Dec 16, 2007)

*low balling*

I'm low balling right now as my work load has dropped off. I know I am not making enough for long term viability but something is better then nothing, or is it? I'm still wearing out my equipment after all. 
I figure when things pick up my rates I will climb to the proper price point. In the mean time I tell folks now is a great time to do tree work as I have dropped my day rate from 1200 to 800 to 900 for three guys and suppoprting equiment. I pay my help very well and they have let me know they will work for less when I bidding less to keep things going.


----------



## treesquirrel (Dec 16, 2007)

Mitchell said:


> I'm low balling right now as my work load has dropped off. I know I am not making enough for long term viability but something is better then nothing, or is it? I'm still wearing out my equipment after all.
> I figure when things pick up my rates I will climb to the proper price point. In the mean time I tell folks now is a great time to do tree work as I have dropped my day rate from 1200 to 800 to 900 for three guys and suppoprting equiment. I pay my help very well and they have let me know they will work for less when I bidding less to keep things going.



I think many of us are doing the same in order to keep things rolling.

It is not all about competition as consumers during this time of year sem to be completely unmotivated to spend unnecessary dough.

The low price offer stimulates consumers to go forward with work they may have moth balled for march or later.


----------



## l2edneck (Dec 16, 2007)

I bid for what I can DO the job for..

Alotta times i lose because my price will be higher due to less equipment/manpower.

I am a small outfit.What i can do in 2 days takes my competition 4-8 hours.

On the same note they cant afford to do 1 job for say 400.00 in one day.

I gave up on trying to match or beat bids.

most of the time i will ride back by and see they got screwed IMO.

They will do half the work for 20.00 dollars less.

Now i will tell you my biz is goin under but not because im a cut throat hack,but because the bigger companies are cutting there own throats in pricing so low as to make that equipment payment.

I have a friend that is a million dollar a year company.He has same issues i have just on a much larger scale.

100 ft pine for 450.00?No effin way.Even with him havin his own crane it would still be probably 700.00 at least.

For me to do it,double that.

JMO,bottom line some days is better to work for someone at crappy pay than to try to survive in this industry as an owner/operator.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 18, 2007)

iv not posted here yet, ive done little reading on this subject, but what i realy think is hacks charge way to much!!!


----------



## diltree (Dec 19, 2007)

Monk said:


> 200 is for the chipper and truck I make a minimum of 300 plus 50 for insurance and misc thats 550 a day thats 2750 on a 5 day work week if you think you and a chipper and truck are worth more than that and can get more than that, more power to you. But you better hope that somebody like me that isn't out to screw his neighbor out of everything he can doesn't move in and put you right out of business."
> 
> "the professor who made that test was most likely someone that couldn't hack it in the real world so they decide to write a book and make certification course in it, and you guy bought into thinking you are now a step ahead of the game"
> 
> ...



My response to the first part of your post, is that we have been in business for 50 years and guys like you have never put us out of business. When I first started bidding work, I use to get frustrated when a lowballer would cut my qoute in half, My father always reasured me that these type of companies "come and go like the flowers of spring". If you want to charge $200 a day for you your truck and your chipper then thats your choice. Im just letting you know we were getting more then that in the 1960's. I dont have time to explain inflation to you, but to make this simple: the going rate in the year 2007 far higher then $200 a day.

Your second paragraph on certification is pretty ignorant. Education is the backbone for advancenment in any socioty and industry. Certification programs promote better arborists, and a better tree care industry. The "proffesors" that you are so quik to bash on; are people that have devoted there lifes to reserch and education so people out in the field have an opportunity to advance their knowledge in expertise.

Your comments on spiking residential trims' only confirms what I just stated in my last paragraph.


----------



## Monk (Dec 19, 2007)

diltree said:


> My response to the first part of your post, is that we have been in business for 50 years and guys like you have never put us out of business. When I first started bidding work, I use to get frustrated when a lowballer would cut my qoute in half, My father always reasured me that these type of companies "come and go like the flowers of spring". If you want to charge $200 a day for you your truck and your chipper then thats your choice. Im just letting you know we were getting more then that in the 1960's. I dont have time to explain inflation to you, but to make this simple: the going rate in the year 2007 far higher then $200 a day.
> 
> Your second paragraph on certification is pretty ignorant. Education is the backbone for advancenment in any socioty and industry. Certification programs promote better arborists, and a better tree care industry. The "proffesors" that you are so quik to bash on; are people that have devoted there lifes to reserch and education so people out in the field have an opportunity to advance their knowledge in expertise.
> 
> Your comments on spiking residential trims' only confirms what I just stated in my last paragraph.




Diltree

I don't know where you live but I live in urban PA and if you take home 300 a day you are making better money than 90 percent of the people around here I base my charges on that to keep my cost low because obiviously somebody isn't going to want to give you a months wages to do a tree. 

The second part of your retort on certifications spoken like somebody that has a whole wall in hsi office dedicated to picture frames with certifications in them. Yes education is the backbone all I am saying is that people need to learn a little more by what they see then what they are told an age old proverb, Believe none of what you here and half of what you see. Pay attention to what was done before you and see how it worked. Don't assume what you learned in a Certification class is right most of that is theorys baed on another mans theroys that were based on another mans theroys and so the circle never ends.


As for the spikes I hope you trim better than you read I said it depends on the tree and the situation you have an 80 ft oak and the home owner wants it lowered for 500 or less I can do it but its going to be off hooks they can't afford to pay the 3000 grand you would charge them to do it with ropes. If they want to pay the money there won't be a hook mark on it. If you are like most of the "professional" arborist around here you will bid a tree like that so high you don't get it because you can't do it, Not saying that is how you are that is how they are around here. I agree spikeing a tree isn't good but it is no where near as bad as you guys like to make it sound the less damage to a tree the better.


As far as being in business the main tree company around here has been in business for over 25 years and they are hacks drop large limbs on houses big tears down the sides of trees dont trim the stubs back to where the should be and they are all certified arborist. Being in business for any amount of time doesn't mean jack to me most people don't know good work from bad.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 19, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> What do you mean when you use the word 'lowering'?
> 
> Why would rope climbing cost six times as much as spike climbing?
> 
> Photos would be really nice if you've got them. I'd be glad to help you with sending them in if you do have some.


i think he means topping and cant do it without hooks. the price of booze went up and rope ain't cheep ether!! lol


----------



## Monk (Dec 19, 2007)

*lowering*

If you do it wills style by the sound of it is a crew cut, I prefer to take leads out and limbs off to bring down the general height and width of the tree it was an example and my price for useing ropes would probably be about 1200-1500 for a tree of that size I can do it off of hooks in a third the time I can do it with ropes.(Iam sure that will start another bombing of sarcasm) it was just an example TreeCo I appreciate the offer for help though. I was just trying to get diltree to look at it from a different point of view and a different economy.


----------



## (WLL) (Dec 19, 2007)

Monk said:


> If you do it wills style by the sound of it is a crew cut, I prefer to take leads out and limbs off to bring down the general height and width of the tree it was an example and my price for useing ropes would probably be about 1200-1500 for a tree of that size I can do it off of hooks in a third the time I can do it with ropes.(Iam sure that will start another bombing of sarcasm) it was just an example TreeCo I appreciate the offer for help though. I was just trying to get diltree to look at it from a different point of view and a different economy.


poor tree!!!!!:jawdrop:


----------



## Canyonbc (Dec 19, 2007)

Monk said:


> Diltree
> 
> I don't know where you live but I live in urban PA and if you take home 300 a day you are making better money than 90 percent of the people around here I base my charges on that to keep my cost low because obiviously somebody isn't going to want to give you a months wages to do a tree.
> 
> ...




Monk. 

I am not here to bash on you in any way, but i have a question. Now i am young and newer to the game..but what do you mean when you say hooks and lowering?

When you say lowering are you talking about a complete removal of the tree...and instead of blocking it down with ropes you use hooks???

I am just trying to understand by what you meant in your last paragraph...about the 80 ft Oak. ???


----------

