# Hello from BKVP



## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

Several years ago I began monitoring and posting on another web site that has to with all things hearth.

Recently this site was brough to my attention by a blogger on the other site.

My name is Chris Neufeld and I am the Vice President of Blaze King Industries, Inc USA. Our offices are in Walla Walla Washington. I have been working in the industry for 18 years and have a very good understanding of solid fuel combustion. In the vein of full disclosure, I am a hunter, outdoorsman and racing enthusiast. (That's a nice way to say I can't compete at the to level of NHRA due top lack of skill and money). Been married 33 years, two grown sons and I mostly burn North Idaho Energy logs.

Visitors to our home often see thermocouples and other devices hooked to my personal stove. So it is certainly accurate to say I live and breath all things solid fuel. When they say my stove looks a bit scientific for home use, I suggest they go home and turn up their furnace! Yes, I can be that candid....and yes, also brutally honest.

Over the past 5 years (seems like a few decades), I have been keenly involved the new EPA NSPS and also participate on a few boards within the industry.

The purpose of this post is to just let bloggers know who I am so that if I post here folks don't think I have some specific hidden agenda.

Lastly, I travel quite extensively and will often post where my travels take me. If you just happened to be near to where I am, I would be happy to buy you a cold one.....regardless of what brand stove you own.

Thank you for this opportunity,

Chris Neufeld
Blaze King
Aka
BKVP here and elsewhere.


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## cigmaker (Jul 27, 2015)

Welcome aboard Chris! I also frequent the other site all about hearth and found 99% of my information when installing my bk princess insert. The crowd here isn't quite as.... eh stuffy for lack of better words lol. Anyhow you will be a wealth of knowledge and experience in stove talk.


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## RAYINTOMBALL (Jul 27, 2015)

Welcome aboard AS Chris. You should be a big help on this forum. Can't wait till fall and time to burn the woodstove. Sorry I have a Quad put still love watching the propane guy drive by.


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## blades (Jul 27, 2015)

Hi Chris, ( my name also) welcome, Sorry no BK here either , I would love to try those energy logs but alas no dealers (WI) here.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 27, 2015)

Welcome to AS, good to see another MFGR rep on here. There used to be at least a couple more reps here than there is now but they left the industry and AS too it seems. Hope ya don't mind a good argument...there have been some legendary ones here! Lot's of passionate wood burners around these parts


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

cigmaker said:


> Welcome aboard Chris! I also frequent the other site all about hearth and found 99% of my information when installing my bk princess insert. The crowd here isn't quite as.... eh stuffy for lack of better words lol. Anyhow you will be a wealth of knowledge and experience in stove talk.


Thank you...


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

RAYINTOMBALL said:


> Welcome aboard AS Chris. You should be a big help on this forum. Can't wait till fall and time to burn the woodstove. Sorry I have a Quad put still love watching the propane guy drive by.


My dear friend started Quad so I can hardly fault you for your choice...


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

blades said:


> Hi Chris, ( my name also) welcome, Sorry no BK here either , I would love to try those energy logs but alas no dealers (WI) here.


You should call their company and tell them where you live. Typically that is how it works these days. The mfg has to call the retailer and say "we've heard from consumers in your area"..,,,the logs work great. I have been able to burn for 3 seasons without much accumulation in the chimney system. Ask for Mr. Fairchild he's the owner.


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome to AS, good to see another MFGR rep on here. There used to be at least a couple more reps here than there is now but they left the industry and AS too it seems. Hope ya don't mind a good argument...there have been some legendary ones here! Lot's of passionate wood burners around these parts


Thank you I always enjoy an argument based upon facts. Wood burners tend to be a passionate lot, which is a good thing. We care about saving money, not expecting others to help (except here with advice), knowledge and of course burning dry wood!


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## zogger (Jul 27, 2015)

Howdy! Certainly heard a lot about your stoves, most of it good. But, for me, at around half a years pay for one, gonna have to just look at pics, hahaha. I run a 25 buck yard sale smogger.


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## blades (Jul 27, 2015)

zogger said:


> Howdy! Certainly heard a lot about your stoves, most of it good. But, for me, at around half a years pay for one, gonna have to just look at pics, hahaha. I run a 25 buck yard sale smogger.


 I here ya, Just have a big black box from VA.


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## Idahonative (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Several years ago I began monitoring and posting on another web site that has to with all things hearth.
> 
> Recently this site was brough to my attention by a blogger on the other site.
> 
> ...



Nice to see you over here Chris. Surprised it took you so long. I've read a lot of your posts over there and found them very helpful...until I was banned. There are a lot of people over there who can't have a grown up discussion and the staff likes it that way. I have to give this site a lot of credit (aside from all the technical problems), they tend to allow people to speak their minds as long as the discussion stays respectful. I think that is very important because it is the only way for a person that comes to a forum to get REAL information. A forum that dictates the story line is about as useful as a chainsaw with no bar and chain.

As you can see in my sig, we own a King model. Many on here will call me a cheerleader for your products. They really don't know me. Yes, I have and will go to bat for your products but it isn't because I have some special loyalty towards the company you work for. It is pure and simply because your products work like no other available on the market (mostly because of your auto damper). Our King is an amazing piece of equipment and the best $3000 we ever spent.

As you may have witnessed on another forum, I'm kind of a controversial person mostly because I'm brutally honest. Regardless of what others say, I am not blinded by brand loyalty but I am a bit fanatical when it comes to equipment that works exceptionally well. Anyway, I'm thankful that you are here and will invest time to help others. There are many on this forum that will benefit.

PS: IMO, burning energy logs is just wrong.


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## Del_ (Jul 27, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> PS: IMO, burning energy logs is just wrong.



Yes it is.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> I always enjoy an argument based upon facts


Is there any other kind?


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## Marshy (Jul 27, 2015)

Hello BKVP, welcome to the site. 

I started looking at your products about a year ago. I also started educating myself on the various technologies of solid fuel combustion and how the efficiency & EPA tests relate to real world. Not exactly an easy task, those tests are a dry read. I will likely have some questions for you about those tests and the products you offer. Its great to have you here.


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## HarvestMan (Jul 27, 2015)

Hello BKVP,

I read three firewood forums and have read your posts on one of them. Glad to see you here as well. I have a question for you since you are an insider and I don't know of any others hanging out on these sites willing to answer questions. I would like to know BK's position regarding hybrid stoves (cat + secondary burn apparatus); I read in some BK literature than BK was the original developers of this concept many years ago. 

Thanks.


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Hello BKVP, welcome to the site.
> 
> I started looking at your products about a year ago. I also started educating myself on the various technologies of solid fuel combustion and how the efficiency & EPA tests relate to real world. Not exactly an easy task, those tests are a dry read. I will likely have some questions for you about those tests and the products you offer. Its great to have you here.


Thank you. Dare I say the EPA has done a good turn with regard to efficiency and the marketing of the data. As of May 15th, 2015, manufacturers must provide the HHV Higher Heating Value efficiency for their appliances. Some have already begun to do so on their sites as well as printed materials. Anyone that is efficiency driven should always ask..."I would like to know the LHV and HHV numbers for this stove please." By getting both numbers, you will narrow down the facts. I once did a pre 2008 tax credit comparison versus once the tax credit was placed at 75% LHV. In general (that means not all cases) the difference can be 8-10% difference.

If you appreciate transparency, this rule creates that opportunity.


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> Hello BKVP,
> 
> I read three firewood forums and have read your posts on one of them. Glad to see you here as well. I have a question for you since you are an insider and I don't know of any others hanging out on these sites willing to answer questions. I would like to know BK's position regarding hybrid stoves (cat + secondary burn apparatus); I read in some BK literature than BK was the original developers of this concept many years ago.
> 
> Thanks.



In 1983, Blaze King made the Princess 1000. It had two sources for air. One for four air tubes to feed fresh air to the cat and the primary air for the firebox itself. This was the time of avocado colored appliances and "hybrid" was not a buzz word.

Well, as it turns out, it was indeed a hybrid wood stove. So why did we stop selling them? First, they sold fine and were quite well favored. But, they were costly. In 1984, one year later, we developed a cat only stove that was cleaner burning, 2% more efficient and several hundred dollars less costly at retail. That model King 1101 was the very first stove certified in Oregon's Wood Stove Certification program, which predates the EPA rules of 1988.

If you compare emissions and efficiency numbers to actual retail costs of different technologies, you will find that while avocado appliances are no longer, the cost associated with additional technology has not disappeared. 

So as to not violate the rules here, you can do the reading/research and come to your own opinion about dollar/value.

Chris


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## HarvestMan (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> So as to not violate the rules here, you can do the reading/research and come to your own opinion about dollar/value.


Thanks for your quick reply. I certainly wouldn't want you burned at the stake or crucified for daring to speak the truth as you see it (history shows us the human creature demands conformity to its endless list of rules and simply will not tolerate heresy - yes, I was always fond of the child in the Emperors New Clothes).

Perhaps you can answer this follow-up question. Is BK working on new cat only designs that exceed the 2020 emissions guidelines?

I have only owned cat stoves; I am trying to understand if hybrid technology is needed to achieve lower emissions or if a cat only design can achieve the same low emissions without the added complexity and potential issues that result from higher firebox temperatures that secondary burn tech produces.


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## wireedm (Jul 27, 2015)

Great to see you on here, Chris!

I purchased a BK Princess Insert a couple years ago. I don't know of any other appliance that has exceeded my expectation such as this product. We burn 95% red oak, with our longest burn time being about 30 hours from a load of wood. Simply amazing. It was great to have our power bill during the winter drop from over $200 to about $95.

I like to do my due diligence research before making larger purchases and it's so satisfying to realize I purchased the best after seeing its performance myself!


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

There is no question that a hybrid can allow for a bit of a flame show when in the low burn rate. That is why there is a push towards the technology. Keep in mind that NC units must maintain 1176F combustion temps in order to burn cleanly. A Cat unit can begin clean burning at 550F. So the advantage of additional air is a nice flame in the lower burn rates, the disadvantage, more flame = shorter burn times. It's all a personal preference issue.

The lower the burn rate, a cat can actually get hotter than on a higher burn rate due to residence time of the smoke going through the cat at the slower pace and the cat gets much hotter. When looking at cat stoves, based on today's substrate and wash coats, you never want to see temps in excess of 1600F. While 1800F is the actually doom and gloom, there can be variations due to draft, fuel moisture content etc. 

We are always working on OUR technology. We have a straight cat unit that is .88 gr/hr. It is actually .57 gr/hr on low, which is favorable as 80% of the time 80% of wood burners operate in the lower burn rates. Cited from both industry and EPA studies.

Do you know who said "I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is?" Hint: He was at the Alamo!


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## brenndatomu (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> So as to not violate the rules here, you can do the reading/research and come to your own opinion about dollar/value.


You _could_ become a minor (or major ) sponsor here, that would allow you some freedom to "distribute propaganda" 
A lot less tip toeing around...either way, it's just nice to have another wood heat enthusiast/industry insider around


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## HarvestMan (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Do you know who said "I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is?" Hint: He was at the Alamo!


A lover of freedom, not afraid of death. One like him said this: "Only those are fit to live who do not fear to die". 

I do not own a BK, but I have heard great things of the thermostatic control. Now, if your company would like to make me happy, please work on a soapstone version with rear exit center line of 22.75 inches .


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> You _could_ become a minor (or major ) sponsor here, that would allow you some freedom to "distribute propaganda"
> A lot less tip toeing around...either way, it's just nice to have another wood heat enthusiast/industry insider around


I will consider the option of being a sponsor/advertiser....glad to be here.


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> A lover of freedom, not afraid of death. One like him said this: "Only those are fit to live who do not fear to die".
> 
> I do not own a BK, but I have heard great things of the thermostatic control. Now, if your company would like to make me happy, please work on a soapstone version with rear exit center line of 22.75 inches .


I am afraid my dear friend Tom at Woodstock would have every reason to shoot me. Google: Woodstock Sospstone Chris Neufeld" and you'll understand. Thank you....


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## HarvestMan (Jul 27, 2015)

bkvp said:


> I am afraid my dear friend Tom at Woodstock would have every reason to shoot me. Google: Woodstock Sospstone Chris Neufeld" and you'll understand. Thank you....


Interesting read. Seems like you and WS are on much friendlier terms than some of the owners from the WS and BK camps. I just purchased a Fireview from WS in May; I've only had five fires in it, but the last one was awesome. As I see it, you just can't have too many good wood stove companies. I would gladly own a stove from each company if I had the need.


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## Marshy (Jul 27, 2015)

@bkvp can you summarize where the current EPA emissions limits are and where they are headed in the near future?

Will you use new technologies to help your company comply with the stricter regulations or will you use your current technologies but just refine the combustion process more?

Does trying to comply with the stricter emissions cause reduced stove efficiencies or are they mutually exclusive?


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## unclemoustache (Jul 27, 2015)

Welcome aboard! Always glad to have another knowledgeable person around here, although you just about lost me when you said the EPA actually did some good! 

Anyway, I'm looking to get a BK in the next couple months - either a King or Princess (I already started 2 threads on the topic). I don't suppose you could get me a discount?


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> Interesting read. Seems like you and WS are on much friendlier terms than some of the owners from the WS and BK camps. I just purchased a Fireview from WS in May; I've only had five fires in it, but the last one was awesome. As I see it, you just can't have too many good wood stove companies. I would gladly own a stove from each company if I had the need.


They are a great company with great products a service. The entire gang there are awesome. When I go to NE, I always try to visit with them....a stay with Tom!


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

Marshy said:


> @bkvp can you summarize where the current EPA emissions limits are and where they are headed in the near future?
> 
> Will you use new technologies to help your company comply with the stricter regulations or will you use your current technologies but just refine the combustion process more?
> 
> Does trying to comply with the stricter emissions cause reduced stove efficiencies or are they mutually exclusive?


Yes, happy to. Between now and May 15th 2020, any wood stove that has been or is tested to 4.5 gr/hr. or less is ok to manufacture and sell. After May 15th, 2020, manufacturers can test with cord wood and the passing requirement is 2.5 gr/hr. Or the manufacturer can test with crib fuel (dimensional lumber) as currently done and the passing grade is 2.0 gr/hr. 

All of our products already make the 2020 requirement, except our non cat models. We will recertify all our units prior to 2020, as required by Federal Law. The test method is also changing slightly so all units currently on the market and any new models will be subject to the new method. Interestingly, catalytic stoves are much less susceptible to emissions variations in fuel type than non catalyst equipped models. The use of palladium and platinum for the chemical reaction make this possible.

We will of course have new products, but we like to take advantage of beta testing (again permitted under Fed. Law). This is what Woodstock did with the Ideal Stove. Put 25 units in the field and let a test group point out all the performance attributes, both positive and negative. Then make the changes, go to a lab and test the unit and take them to the market place. We do this to keep consumers from becoming guinea pigs.


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## bkvp (Jul 27, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> Welcome aboard! Always glad to have another knowledgeable person around here, although you just about lost me when you said the EPA actually did some good!
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking to get a BK in the next couple months - either a King or Princess (I already started 2 threads on the topic). I don't suppose you could get me a discount?


Discount are up to dealers. The closer you get to the season, usually Aug 1, the less the dealers want to negotiate. However, send me a picture after your install and I'll send you something.


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## cantoo (Jul 28, 2015)

bkvp, watch that Uncle fella, he has a bunch of kids and he will try and trade you one for a King stove.


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## bkvp (Jul 28, 2015)

cantoo said:


> bkvp, watch that Uncle fella, he has a bunch of kids and he will try and trade you one for a King stove.


How old are the kids? On a more serious note....now everyone read this...there is a serious shortage of skilled employees in hearth showrooms across the country. I have been in more than 200 stores this year and the vast majority are looking for employees. Sales positions and install /service positions as well. From a manufacturer stand point, educated engineers with combustion knowledge are highly sought after. Put those kids in the correct programs in school and they can pick the job instead of the job picking them!!


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## cantoo (Jul 28, 2015)

bkvp, we have the same thing here in Ontario. I do some hiring and firing and we are having difficulty even filling simple entry level jobs. Unemployment is high and we can't even get any applications from people looking for work. We call people and set up interviews and if they do happen to show up they dress and act like complete idiots and don't even seem to want a job. Even our farm kids now are getting decent money to work on big farms driving shiny new equipment and don't want to break a sweat anymore. We are paying good wages and benefits and are always looking for people. Knowledgeable people are getting harder and harder to find and with tight margins it's hard to pay enough to keep them.
Uncle is smart to be lining up his own workforce and they are all hard workers too. I'd like to line up my own workers too but I can't seem to find any women that want to go halves with me.


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## blades (Jul 28, 2015)

I'm biased, but from my prespective it seems the going rate is 90/10 in their favor.


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## unclemoustache (Jul 28, 2015)

cantoo said:


> bkvp, watch that Uncle fella, he has a bunch of kids and he will try and trade you one for a King stove.





bkvp said:


> How old are the kids?



lol! Got a heap of them indeed - nine. Oldest is getting married in a couple weeks, and the youngest is still spitting up. I might be interested in trading off one of them - he's a mix between Curious George and Dennis the Menace. 




bkvp said:


> On a more serious note....now everyone read this...there is a serious shortage of skilled employees in hearth showrooms across the country. I have been in more than 200 stores this year and the vast majority are looking for employees. Sales positions and install /service positions as well. From a manufacturer stand point, educated engineers with combustion knowledge are highly sought after. Put those kids in the correct programs in school and they can pick the job instead of the job picking them!!



My kids are home-educated. They will rule the nation before long. 


I do have a serious question for you though - I'm torn between the King and the Princess. Here's my set-up:
big old drafty victorian house with no insulation.
About 950 sq. ft. on each floor, plus a finished attic (plus basement as well, but that's of no concern here).
Stove is not central, but in one corner of the house. Rooms are quite open (8' openings between rooms) with 9' ceilings. Air flow is limited, but could be helped with fans.

My main desire is long burn times - I want to be able to get the stove going in the morning, then damp it down and leave it so the family doesn't have to mess with it all day until I get home. I don't need 40 hours, but I would like a very consistent 10 hours. I burn mostly seasoned hardwood, oak as much as possible. Sounds like the Princess would work, but I'd hate to need something larger and not have it.

Current chimney is 6", but I'm willing to replace that if it's determined I need the King, which means there's at least $1,000 price difference between the two, and with 9 hungry kids and a wedding to pay for, that's a lot of bucks for me to swing, so I don't want to do that for 'just-in-case' reasoning.
So with all that info, what is your recommendation? (Yeah, I know - a King on each floor with TWO new chimneys! )


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## showrguy (Jul 28, 2015)

Subscribed...
This could likely end up being the most informative thread ever on here....
Welcome to AS Chris..


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## bkvp (Jul 28, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> lol! Got a heap of them indeed - nine. Oldest is getting married in a couple weeks, and the youngest is still spitting up. I might be interested in trading off one of them - he's a mix between Curious George and Dennis the Menace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


O.k.... So think of the two stoves as both being a really efficient new cars. One has a top end of about 10% more Btu's, (King) and costs a bit more on the lot. (Stove and chimney add $1500+ over the cost of the slightly smaller but almost identically efficient car. (Princess). But the first car has a bigger gas tank, so it can go further. (Longer burn times)

The coldest city where we have a dealer is Fairbanks Alaska...flying there in the a.m. Anyway, 90% of the stoves they sell are our stoves and of those, 90% are Princess stoves. And don't tell anyone but they have really crappy wood up there! Heck they'd give me a free kid for a cord of hardwood fuel!

You should keep all this mind when making your decision. By the way, I live in a 1895 Sears Craftsman home that shipped here by rail car. We have a mail slot in the front door....it's about 19' all the way around. What's r value?

Chris


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## zogger (Jul 29, 2015)

bkvp said:


> O.k.... So think of the two stoves as both being a really efficient new cars. One has a top end of about 10% more Btu's, (King) and costs a bit more on the lot. (Stove and chimney add $1500+ over the cost of the slightly smaller but almost identically efficient car. (Princess). But the first car has a bigger gas tank, so it can go further. (Longer burn times)
> 
> The coldest city where we have a dealer is Fairbanks Alaska...flying there in the a.m. Anyway, 90% of the stoves they sell are our stoves and of those, 90% are Princess stoves. And don't tell anyone but they have really crappy wood up there! Heck they'd give me a free kid for a cord of hardwood fuel!
> 
> ...



Pic of the mail order house? Sounds spiffy! Sears used to be just so cool, I've seen one of the real old catalogs.


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## bkvp (Jul 29, 2015)

Pic when I get back from AK.


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## Idahonative (Jul 29, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> lol! Got a heap of them indeed - nine. Oldest is getting married in a couple weeks, and the youngest is still spitting up. I might be interested in trading off one of them - he's a mix between Curious George and Dennis the Menace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unc, I'm no wood stove expert so take my advice for what it is. We have a King for our small (1250 sf) home. Do we wish we had bought the Princess instead? Absolutely not and I will tell you why. We don't have the luxury of burning hardwood. If we did, we probably would have went with the Princess. Most of what we burn is pine so for us, being on a 24 hr. load schedule would be difficult on cold days with any other stove including the Princess. After 24 hrs. of heat from the King we simply open it up, reload, do a burnoff for about 15-20 minutes, set the auto damper, and forget about it for another 24 hrs. We had two really cold snaps last winter and not once did the King run out of fuel during the 24 hr. cycles running pine.

Many people have questioned why we put such a large stove in our tiny house. Even our sales lady tried to talk us into the Princess. She told us the King would "run you out of the house". Which really just proves that even she doesn't fully understand how these stoves work. The combination of the auto damper and the cat allows for some serious "turn down" capability. Turn it down and it will smolder (creating a lot of smoke) which the cat gladly eats up and spits out as heat into the home.

Knowing what I know about your situation, I don't think it's a question of the King or the Princess. I think it is a question of where are you going to put your two Kings.

BTW: We don't "build" fires. We light the fire at the beginning of the season and don't light another until spring (unless we have to shutdown for ash dump). There are always a healthy heap of coals for firing up the reload.


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## BGE541 (Jul 29, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Unc, I'm no wood stove expert so take my advice for what it is. We have a King for our small (1250 sf) home. Do we wished we had bought the Princess instead? Absolutely not and I will tell you why. We don't have the luxury of burning hardwood. If we did, we probably would have went with the Princess. Most of what we burn is pine so for us, being on a 24 hr. load schedule would be difficult on cold days with any other stove including the Princess. After 24 hrs. of heat from the King we simply open it up, reload, do a burnoff for about 15-20 minutes, set the auto damper, and forget about it for another 24 hrs. We had two really cold snaps last winter and not once did the King run out of fuel during the 24 hr. cycles running pine.
> 
> Many people have questioned why we put such a large stove in our tiny house. Even our sales lady tried to talk us into the Princess. She told us the King would "run you out of the house". Which really just proves that even she doesn't fully understand how these stoves work. The combination of the auto damper and the cat allows for some serious "turn down" capability. Turn it down and it will smolder (creating a lot of smoke) which the cat gladly eats up and spits out as heat into the home.
> 
> ...


What stove is this? Please PM me with details


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## Idahonative (Jul 29, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> What stove is this? Please PM me with details



If you are asking what stove we are running, it's the one in my sig (King Ultra).


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## unclemoustache (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks for the answers, bkvp and Idahonative. I think I'll do the princess. I only need 10 hours (tops) for burn time, and I have loads of hardwood here.

I'd much rather go back West where the wood selection is very limited, but you get mountains and low humidity in return!


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## bkvp (Jul 29, 2015)

And Elk!


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## HarvestMan (Jul 29, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> I think I'll do the princess.


Too bad. I was hoping you would install two kings so that you could load those babies up and get on a 48 hour load cycle .


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 29, 2015)

bkvp said:


> The coldest city where we have a dealer is Fairbanks Alaska... And don't tell anyone but they have really crappy wood up there! Heck they'd give me a free kid for a cord of hardwood fuel!
> 
> Chris



Not to be rude, but birch is 23.6mbtu per cord. It's right in line with most other "good" firewood.
Not sure I understand how that's "crappy"?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 29, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> Thanks for the answers, bkvp and Idahonative. I think I'll do the princess. I only need 10 hours (tops) for burn time, and I have loads of hardwood here.



I think you'll be just fine unless your house is really drafty.
I get easily 10 hrs on a load when it's -20*.

The auto damper and all that... yeah.. haha.
It sort of works, but not as well as I'd like. There's been a few times I've woken up to a chilly house. Some wood still in the stove but the "auto" damper didn't do its job well enough and let the fire die.
Usually was those nights it when from 25* to -10* in a few hrs.

You can't just fill the stove to the gunnels and choke it right down expecting miracles. It can only choke so low, and even with dry wood it's going to really soot up everything.

I'm not "poo-pooing" on the stoves, I really like mine, but just trying to be realistic with how it has worked.

Example if it's 30* outside, I'd only put a few pieces of wood in the stove, and maybe just spruce even.
If I filled it right full with birch, and cut the air off (low) it would run me out of the house and gunk up the stove.
I ran it like that the first year, was how I was told. The glass was non-see-thru within a week. To the point of have easily 1/4" of sticky cresote.



As far as having the cost of chimney if you do 8" with the King don't know about elsewhere, but Metalbestos chimney is $$ here. 8" is about $50 a ft for straight pipe double wall.


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## bkvp (Jul 29, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Not to be rude, but birch is 23.6mbtu per cord. It's right in line with most other "good" firewood.
> Not sure I understand how that's "crappy"?


Although I do not reside in AK, I know plenty of wood burners in the interior that would gladly take oak over birch. And you're not being rude. Residents in Fairbanks line up to pay $300 for energy logs shipped up to AK just so they can burn Douglas Fir....


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## unclemoustache (Jul 29, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I think you'll be just fine unless your house is really drafty.
> I get easily 10 hrs on a load when it's -20*.
> 
> The auto damper and all that... yeah.. haha.
> ...




Yes, those double-wall's aren't cheap. And southern IL doesn't get that cold, but we did have a gorgeous winter 2 years ago - got down to 10 below, and lots of snow. I loved it.
I'm expecting a learning curve here, but anything will be better than my Lopi Leyden. What a hunk of junk. I'm going to give it away to a friend who has a fireplace. That's the only thing where the Leyden can compare favorably. Although I do like the top-loading feature, I gotta admit.


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## Idahonative (Jul 30, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I think you'll be just fine unless your house is really drafty.
> I get easily 10 hrs on a load when it's -20*.
> 
> The auto damper and all that... yeah.. haha.
> ...



Wow, that may be your experience but it differs greatly from ours. Sounds like a wood problem and/or possibly a draft problem the way you described it. And your problem with cresote??? Again, sounds to me like a wood problem (^moisture). Do you do daily burn offs? A 15-20 minute daily burn off will keep things nice and clean. Haven't touched the flue with anything yet except hot gasses once a day and don't ever plan to. Matter a fact (& I got banned on another site for saying this) between my parents house and mine, we have been burning for 35 years. In that time, neither of us has EVER cleaned, or hired someone to clean our flues. I realize that is a controversial thing to say but it is the truth. No matter the name brand of the stove, everyone should practice DAILY BURN OFFS.

_*DISCLAIMER: *_ Practicing daily burn offs is an ALL OR NOTHING thing. If you are gonna do it, you have to do it everyday without fail and you have to start with a clean flue. You can't do it whenever you feel like it. That is a recipe for a chimney fire. You have to be religious about it. 

And I strongly disagree with your statement: _*"You can't just fill the stove to the gunnels and choke it right down expecting miracles"*_. The auto damper on the Blaze Kings IS the miracle in the way they function. We fill ours once per day (with pine), do a 15-20 minute burn off, set the damper and forget it for another 24 hrs. Not once has our stove failed to provide consistent heat in relation to where we had the damper set. It has been flawless. It is the closest thing you can get to a thermostatically controlled gas furnace without having a gas furnace IMO.

EDIT: I got banned from another site when I took the position (against one of the staff members) that daily burn offs should be part of every wood burners daily routine. I got told such a thing is an "old wives tale" and "doesn't work" and that it was dangerous and irresponsible to suggest such a thing to other members (as part of flue maintenance). I can tell you with 100% certainty daily burn offs not only work, but make burning wood much safer. That could be why Blaze King recommends something similar in their owners manuals.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 30, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Wow, that may be your experience but it differs greatly from ours. Sounds like a wood problem and/or possibly a draft problem the way you described it. And your problem with cresote??? Again, sounds to me like a wood problem (^moisture). Do you do daily burn offs? A 15-20 minute daily burn off will keep things nice and clean. Haven't touched the flue with anything yet except hot gasses once a day and don't ever plan to. Matter a fact (& I got banned on another site for saying this) between my parents house and mine, we have been burning for 35 years. In that time, neither of us has EVER cleaned, or hired someone to clean our flues. I realize that is a controversial thing to say but it is the truth. No matter the name brand of the stove, everyone should practice DAILY BURN OFFS.
> 
> _*DISCLAIMER: *_ Practicing daily burn offs is an ALL OR NOTHING thing. If you are gonna do it, you have to do it everyday without fail and you have to start with a clean flue. You can't do it whenever you feel like it. That is a recipe for a chimney fire. You have to be religious about it.
> 
> ...


I can agree that burnin 'er out once a day can help extend the time between cleaning intervals, especially if you have so-so wood or bad burning habits, but _never_ cleaning/inspecting your chimney in 35 years...foolish! 
Just 'cause you _can_ do something doesn't mean it's a good idea...


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## Idahonative (Jul 30, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> I can agree that burnin 'er out once a day can help extend the time between cleaning intervals, especially if you have so-so wood or bad burning habits, but _never_ cleaning/inspecting your chimney in 35 years...foolish!
> Just 'cause you _can_ do something doesn't mean it's a good idea...



Well I respect your opinion. It's not a matter of "can" do...it's a matter of "should" do. And I didn't say it was a good idea to never inspect the flue. I take the position that (for our situation) hiring a chimney sweep is a waste of money and time. Keep in mind: We are religious about burn offs, burn quality well seasoned conifer, don't have stacks over 15' high, and we live in a very dry climate. We check the flue every year to make sure it's in good working order. But as far as creosote buildup goes, every year it looks the same...thin, light colored film of ash. Just like it should.


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## Marshy (Jul 30, 2015)

@bkvp, can you explain the combustion process in the BK stoves, are they considered gasification systems? Can you talk about how cresote forms and how the BK stoves fair against buildup?


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## stihly dan (Jul 30, 2015)

Ehh, I don't clean my chimney either. I don't even check it anymore. That 5 min could be better spent napping.


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## stihly dan (Jul 30, 2015)

Oh yeah, white spider may want to know how the BK works. He doesn't believe in magic.


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## bkvp (Jul 30, 2015)

I'm in Fairbanks and time is short. I will respond, time permitting. But according to another web site "it's alien technology".

Chris


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## brenndatomu (Jul 30, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> We check the flue every year to make sure it's in good working order. But as far as creosote buildup goes, every year it looks the same...thin, light colored film of ash. Just like it should.


Ahh, so you do inspect it. I thought you were sayin you hadn't checked your chimney in 35 years. 
Even if there is only a light film in the flue, cleaning it would allow for a closer inspection...


stihly dan said:


> Ehh, I don't clean my chimney either. I don't even check it anymore. That 5 min could be better spent napping.


Hey, you pipe down Mr! Anybody that owns one of those fancy pants furnaces that burns wood on cruise control and poops flower scented oxygen out the stack doesn't have a horse in this race! Go back to sleep


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## brenndatomu (Jul 30, 2015)

stihly dan said:


> Oh yeah, white spider may want to know how the BK works. He doesn't believe in magic.





bkvp said:


> according to another web site "it's alien technology"


Well, judgin by his old avatar, I say @Whitespider would buy the alien technology argument...


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## Whitespider (Jul 30, 2015)

So... my attention has been called to this thread by brenndatomu tagging me 

Sorry boys... ain't buyin' the magic or the alien technology.
Ain't cleaned my chimney in 23 years using 5 different appliances... and only one of them, used for only one year, was of new-fangled technology.
And, just as the side note... I burn 70-80% oak.
What did ya' expect from me?? Did ya' think I'd be wowed??

Y'all remember one of my old signatures?? Burnin' it should be the easy part.
It ain't better technology if I gotta' do more than open the door, toss in the fuel, and slam the door (occasionally yank the ash pan and dump it... even when the fire is goin' full-tilt)
*


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## Idahonative (Jul 30, 2015)

Some helpful quotes from the Blaze King manual:

*Pg. 23, Operating Instructions, #8: "Let the fire burn on a higher setting (on the thermostat) for 20-30 minutes, or until the fire is well established, then turn the thermostat to the desired setting. *It is good burning practice to burn the stove on high for 20-30 mins after every refueling, this will help in cleaning off any residual build-ups and lessen the chance of accumulation.*"

*Pg. 23, Operating Instructions: "Put as much fuel into the stove as it will hold. Don't be afraid to fill it completely. With the Blaze King automatic thermostat, the wood will only burn at the rate set on the thermostat. *Loading with a half load of fuel, and therefore reloading more often, causes the combustor to lose efficiency and may result in a faster creosote deposit.*"

*Pg. 24, Operating Instructions: "Should you burn the stove on a very low setting for extended periods of time, you will begin to see creosote deposits forming on the glass door. *To remove these deposits, simply run the stove on "High" for a short time, approximately 30 minutes. The "High" setting will burn off most of the deposits.*"

*Pg. 26, Creosote: "At stack temperature below 120*C (250* F), the creosote will condense out of the gasses (smoke). Once a chimney connector becomes heavily coated with creosote, the only safe way to remove it is mechanically with a proper chimney cleaner or brush. A combination of wet fuel and poor operating procedure may necessitate weekly cleaning to remove creosote buildup. *Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote...We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER "burn out" large deposits of more than one days accumulation*."

*Pg. 26, Creosote, #4: "*Operate the stove on a higher temperature setting for the half hour after reloading*."

*Pg. 28, Maintenance, Cat Cleaning: "*TIP: A nice hot fire will usually prove to be the best method of cleaning the combustor of deposits*."

*Pg. 29, Maintenance, Door Glass Cleaning: "*The best way to keep the glass clean is to leave the stove on high burn for a period of time after each reloading*. The moisture which is driven from a new load of wood contributes much of the creosote on the inside of the glass. Removing that moisture at the beginning of the burn cycle helps to keep the glass clean. Leaving the thermostat on a higher setting for 30 minutes to an hour before turning to low for an overnight burn will also help.



From the glass to the cat to the box to the flue, there is a reoccurring theme here: Daily burn offs help to keep everything clean. My dad taught me at nine years old how important daily burn offs were to operating our wood stove safely (concerning creosote). That was before I even knew what Blaze King was. I just thought that was the way everyone did it. It wasn't until I was an adult, burning my own stove, that I realized doing it this way was controversial amongst the general wood burning population.

The only thing I would caution is if you have an unusually high stack. Maybe going through two stories. The higher the stack the harder it will be to raise the flue temp (at the higher level) sufficient enough to burn accumulation. Or if you have bends in your stack. I personally would not install a wood stove with bends in the stack.

Just my input from my experience. I know this subject stirs up a lot of emotion because there are deeply entrenched ways of burning that have been passed down from generation to generation. I believe BK is spot on with their suggestions concerning creosote. Of course, they also have the "lawyer" language in their manuals as well.


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## bkvp (Jul 30, 2015)

We are not suggesting high burns with the bypass open! These recommendations are to keep the stove inner workings clean.....not a chimney.


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## HarvestMan (Jul 30, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> EDIT: I got banned from another site when I took the position (against one of the staff members) that daily burn offs should be part of every wood burners daily routine. I got told such a thing is an "old wives tale" and "doesn't work" and that it was dangerous and irresponsible to suggest such a thing to other members (as part of flue maintenance). I can tell you with 100% certainty daily burn offs not only work, but make burning wood much safer. That could be why Blaze King recommends something similar in their owners manuals.


Since you like brutal honesty, here is some for you. You got banned because too many people thought you to be a trouble making @sshole.

What you simply can't see is you are not just a cheerleader for BK ... that would be fine. You go out of your way to criticize other brands and agitate the cheerleaders of other brands. I find it all rather entertaining myself, but clearly the moderators do not.


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## Idahonative (Jul 30, 2015)

bkvp said:


> We are not suggesting high burns with the bypass open! These recommendations are to keep the stove inner workings clean.....not a chimney.



We aren't doing daily burn offs with the bypass open. Bypass is closed and cat temp is allowed to reach the upper limit (raising the flue temp) before the thermostat is set for the day.


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## Idahonative (Jul 30, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> Since you like brutal honesty, here is some for you. You got banned because too many people thought you to be a trouble making @sshole.
> 
> What you simply can't see is you are not just a cheerleader for BK ... that would be fine. You go out of your way to criticize other brands and agitate the cheerleaders of other brands. I find it all rather entertaining myself, but clearly the moderators do not.



You must be talking about the Woodstock discussion. I almost forgot about that...but I still stand behind everything I said. Thanks for reminding me.


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## Idahonative (Jul 31, 2015)

bkvp said:


> We are not suggesting high burns with the bypass open! *These recommendations are to keep the stove inner workings clean.....not a chimney.*



Wasn't this paragraph written into the Blaze King manual specifically addressing the chimney?:

*Pg. 26, Creosote: "At stack temperature below 120*C (250* F), the creosote will condense out of the gasses (smoke). Once a chimney connector becomes heavily coated with creosote, the only safe way to remove it is mechanically with a proper chimney cleaner or brush. A combination of wet fuel and poor operating procedure may necessitate weekly cleaning to remove creosote buildup. *Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote...We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER "burn out" large deposits of more than one days accumulation*."


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## bkvp (Jul 31, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Wasn't this paragraph written into the Blaze King manual specifically addressing the chimney?:
> 
> *Pg. 26, Creosote: "At stack temperature below 120*C (250* F), the creosote will condense out of the gasses (smoke). Once a chimney connector becomes heavily coated with creosote, the only safe way to remove it is mechanically with a proper chimney cleaner or brush. A combination of wet fuel and poor operating procedure may necessitate weekly cleaning to remove creosote buildup. *Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote...We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER "burn out" large deposits of more than one days accumulation*."


This is referring to firebox accumulation not chimney. We can clarify...however we repeat several places that once the cat is active, close the by pass. Another reason to burn hot for a bit after a reload is to better deal with fuel moisture. Hotter temps deal with the water in the fuel more effectively.


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Wasn't this paragraph written into the Blaze King manual specifically addressing the chimney?:
> 
> *Pg. 26, Creosote: "At stack temperature below 120*C (250* F), the creosote will condense out of the gasses (smoke). Once a chimney connector becomes heavily coated with creosote, the only safe way to remove it is mechanically with a proper chimney cleaner or brush. A combination of wet fuel and poor operating procedure may necessitate weekly cleaning to remove creosote buildup. *Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote...We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER "burn out" large deposits of more than one days accumulation*."


 
I would read that as possibly addressing the chimney connector (stove pipe), but not the chimney.


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## Idahonative (Jul 31, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> I would read that as possibly addressing the chimney connector (stove pipe), but not the chimney.



Stove pipe and chimney are the same thing. In fact, words like chimney, stack, connector, pipe, flue...all mean the same thing. They are the means for the gasses to exit the home. Every one of those words has the meaning "pipe"...NOT "firebox".

Strange (to me) that anyone would read that paragraph and take the position that it WAS NOT written specifically for the flue.


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## Idahonative (Jul 31, 2015)

bkvp said:


> This is referring to firebox accumulation not chimney. We can clarify...*however we repeat several places that once the cat is active, close the by pass*. Another reason to burn hot for a bit after a reload is to better deal with fuel moisture. Hotter temps deal with the water in the fuel more effectively.



Again, that is what we are doing. Once the cat probe is in the active range, the bypass is closed and allowed (during burn off) to reach the upper limit. I'm guessing the flue temp is around 1000 degrees by the time the cat probe hits this upper limit. We don't have great instruments like you but our Condar pipe thermometer is reading approximately 500 degrees (measured 5" above stove top, outside of single pipe reducer), so times that by 2 for inside temp. That 1000 degree exhaust temp is what is keeping the flue clean (with the by pass closed) during the burn off. Everything stays within the "safe" zone on the cat probe through all this.


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## Idahonative (Jul 31, 2015)

Notice at the bottom of the page BK is calling the pipe (from the stove top to the ceiling of the home) the "chimney connector":


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## brenndatomu (Jul 31, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> So... my attention has been called to this thread by brenndatomu tagging me


...figured, we talkin 'boutcha, no sense in doin it behind your back. Besides, I don't recall you addressing cat stoves before. Surely you ain't disputin that those actually work?


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## Idahonative (Jul 31, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> ...figured, we talkin 'boutcha, no sense in doin it behind your back. Besides, I don't recall you addressing cat stoves before. Surely you ain't disputin that those actually work?



If I had time, and could afford it, I'd fly Spidey out here to stay with us for a while this winter. He would leave a BELIEVER.


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## Whitespider (Jul 31, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> *Surely you ain't disputin that those actually work?*


No sir... I won't dispute that... I have no experience with one.
*


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## KiwiBro (Jul 31, 2015)

bkvp said:


> This is what Woodstock did with the Ideal Stove. Put 25 units in the field and let a test group point out all the performance attributes, both positive and negative. Then make the changes, go to a lab and test the unit and take them to the market place. We do this to keep consumers from becoming guinea pigs.


If only every manufacturer respected consumers like this. Good for you.


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## Del_ (Jul 31, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> No sir... I won't dispute that... I have no experience with one.
> *



From your writings here you've never had the experience of running any epa approved wood stove correctly. 

My first Cat stove experience was in a Riteway Model 37 back in 82.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 31, 2015)

I haven't had any issues with burning how I described above.

The wood is dry, 2-3 years cut and stacked.

I think what it boils down to is no install is going to be the same as another.

Now in the dead of winter I do fill the stove full and dial it to around 1-1.5. It works perfect at single digits or colder... real strong draft, the house needs that much heat and all works out.
In the area of 20*s, I may or may not do a full load, all depending on house temp. It works out better to do 2 smaller fires than one big fire with it smoldering.

In the 30s I don't use the blower and only load a couple pieces of softwood, otherwise I could easily make the house 100*. Usually only need to do 1 fire a day.

None of that really set in stone, but I've had the stove for 5 years and I've got it pretty well sorted out. Still on the original catalyst, not really sure how long they last.










Idahonative said:


> Wow, that may be your experience but it differs greatly from ours. Sounds like a wood problem and/or possibly a draft problem the way you described it. And your problem with cresote??? Again, sounds to me like a wood problem (^moisture). Do you do daily burn offs? A 15-20 minute daily burn off will keep things nice and clean. Haven't touched the flue with anything yet except hot gasses once a day and don't ever plan to. Matter a fact (& I got banned on another site for saying this) between my parents house and mine, we have been burning for 35 years. In that time, neither of us has EVER cleaned, or hired someone to clean our flues. I realize that is a controversial thing to say but it is the truth. No matter the name brand of the stove, everyone should practice DAILY BURN OFFS.
> 
> _*DISCLAIMER: *_ Practicing daily burn offs is an ALL OR NOTHING thing. If you are gonna do it, you have to do it everyday without fail and you have to start with a clean flue. You can't do it whenever you feel like it. That is a recipe for a chimney fire. You have to be religious about it.
> 
> ...


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## brenndatomu (Jul 31, 2015)

I was thinking that I heard cat stoves can be a real bugger with puffbacks when turning down the dial? (seems to me it was across all brands)
That would turn me off...I hate a puffback, just about enough to make me go back to fossil fuel if it happens more than about once per year. Hate having the house smell like a rustic old cabin, and the wife has long hair, she doesn't go for campfire smellin hair too well either.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 31, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> I was thinking that I heard cat stoves can be a real bugger with puffbacks when turning down the dial? (seems to me it was across all brands)
> That would turn me off...I hate a puffback, just about enough to make me go back to fossil fuel if it happens more than about once per year. Hate having the house smell like a rustic old cabin, and the wife has long hair, she doesn't go for campfire smellin hair too well either.



My stove will do it if I turn it down too early and the wood didn't get a full chance to "burn in". Sometimes with enough force it will make the bypass door clank.
It might happen a few times a heating season (out of 6+ months of the stove running)


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## Idahonative (Aug 1, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Not to be rude, but birch is 23.6mbtu per cord. It's right in line with most other "good" firewood.
> Not sure I understand how that's "crappy"?



You could send me all your "crappy" birch. Even the poorer types of birch still rate above 20 mbtu (black birch @26.8 mbtu, although not native in AK), far better than the pine we are burning @ around 17 mbtu (& we are happy burning it). Even those poorer types still rate right there with Douglas Fir on the btu chart. Not sure why "residents in Fairbanks line up to pay $300 for energy logs shipped up to AK just so they can burn Douglas Fir". Heck, I wouldn't line up for energy logs if they were free.


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## Idahonative (Aug 1, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> I would read that as possibly addressing the chimney connector (stove pipe), but not the chimney.



*Idahonative: "Stove pipe and chimney are the same thing. In fact, words like chimney, stack, connector, pipe, flue...all mean the same thing. They are the means for the gasses to exit the home. Every one of those words has the meaning "pipe"...NOT "firebox".*

NSMaple1, I want to make sure you didn't take my reply to your post as me disagreeing with you. I agree 100% when you say you take it as addressing the chimney connector, but not the chimney. The point I was trying to make was this: I realize different sections of pipe are called different things. From the stove top to the ceiling of the room is called the "chimney connector" but it's still a *PIPE*. From the attic to the vent cap is called the "chimney" but it's still a *PIPE*. I could call the entire pipe, from the stove top to the vent cap, the "flue" but it's still a *PIPE*.

I also understand a person could have a pipe (chimney connector) up to the ceiling and have something other than a pipe as the chimney (maybe masonry). We can talk about definitions all day long but it doesn't change the point when talking about creosote in the flue. Blaze King was very specific in their manual when addressing creosote. They broke it out into: Glass, firebox, cat, and flue (chimney connector). I'm still puzzled how anyone could read this and not agree that BK is addressing creosote in the flue with words like "stack", "chimney connector", and "chimney brush"...NOWHERE does it mention "firebox":

**Pg. 26, Creosote: "At stack temperature below 120*C (250* F), the creosote will condense out of the gasses (smoke). Once a chimney connector becomes heavily coated with creosote, the only safe way to remove it is mechanically with a proper chimney cleaner or brush. A combination of wet fuel and poor operating procedure may necessitate weekly cleaning to remove creosote buildup. Remember - the hotter the fire the less creosote...We recommend that each day a small intense fire be built, preferably in the morning. This daily practice should burn out the small deposits of creosote before they build to a dangerous level. The combustion air inlet should be opened at least 30 minutes by turning the thermostat up in the morning and evening. NEVER "burn out" large deposits of more than one days accumulation*."

I guess my advise to others would be to follow the BK manual...it works!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: BTW - If a person is addressing creosote (with daily burn offs) in the chimney connector (stove pipe), they are addressing creosote all the way up the flue. The hot gasses know no boundaries.

The same could be said for the other areas of creosote that BK addresses in the manual. If a person is getting the stove hot enough to burn creosote off the glass, the firebox, and the cat, they are getting it hot enough to keep the flue free of creosote. I can tell you first hand, it takes getting the cat probe into the upper range for approx 30 minutes (like the manual states) to clean the glass. At those temps, for that long, the flue WILL be free of creosote (with daily burn offs).


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## Blowncrewcab (Aug 3, 2015)

Chris BKVP, If the BK Princess would have fit into a 25" High fireplace I'd have bought one. So I went with the Beast (Buck 91) instead of the Best   (Mixed Emotions) I'd buy you some Beers Too !!!!


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## brenndatomu (Aug 3, 2015)

@Blowncrewcab , you need to post pics of the BCC in the wood hauler thread...


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## Idahonative (Aug 3, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> Chris BKVP, If the BK Princess would have fit into a 25" High fireplace I'd have bought one. So I went with the Beast (Buck 91) instead of the Best   (Mixed Emotions) I'd buy you some Beers Too !!!!



Where is VP? Hasn't been seen here for three days. Been showing up over on the Communist site but is MIA here on AS.


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## Marshy (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Where is VP? Hasn't been seen here for three days. Been showing up over on the Communist site but is MIA here on AS.


I'm sure he'll be back. I can only imagine how busy a VP would be. I'm surprised he has time to chat online.


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## showrguy (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Where is VP? Hasn't been seen here for three days. Been showing up over on the Communist site but is MIA here on AS.



Ya musta skeered him away...
I think I'm gonna buy a King Ultra and give it a try, but I have some questions that BKVP kinda needs to answer first..
I've talked to two different dealers about my chimney situation, and I'm getting two different answers..


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Ya musta skeered him away...
> I think I'm gonna buy a King Ultra and give it a try, but I have some questions that BKVP kinda needs to answer first..
> I've talked to two different dealers about my chimney situation, and I'm getting two different answers..



Well, hopefully that's not the case. I'm glad he is here and since he can be "brutally honest", I don't think my brutal honesty will scare him away. Hopefully he will show back up and you can get your questions answered.


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## showrguy (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Well, hopefully that's not the case. I'm glad he is here and since he can be "brutally honest", I don't think my brutal honesty will scare him away. Hopefully he will show back up and you can get your questions answered.



I called Blaze King, I talked to a guy (did'nt get his name), he recommended that I speak with Charlie, he is the King Ultra specialist it seems...
I'm waiting for a return call, cuz he was out/lunch ??


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> I called Blaze King, I talked to a guy (did'nt get his name), he recommended that I speak with Charlie, he is the King Ultra specialist it seems...
> I'm waiting for a return call, cuz he was out/lunch ??



LOL, Hopefully he wasn't out to lunch...they are on Pacific time in Walla Walla . That would be a really early lunch.

Edit: If Charlie calls you back you will have to let us know what he says.


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## showrguy (Aug 4, 2015)

Talked to Charlie this afternoon.........That guy was very helpfull ...
I'll be buying one, maybe yet this week if my work schedule ever evens out..
Dealer about 50 miles away has one on the floor..

Edit;;;
From both the dealers I talked to, it does'nt sound like there's a mid summer/off season price break !!


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Talked to Charlie this afternoon.........That guy was very helpfull ...
> I'll be buying one, maybe yet this week if my work schedule ever evens out..
> Dealer about 50 miles away has one on the floor..
> 
> ...



Too bad you aren't closer to Oregon. Dealer in Hermiston has the Ultra's on sale ($500 off), TTL price $2695 and Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 4, 2015)

> ="Idahonative, post: 5475254, member:
> 
> The same could be said for the other areas of creosote that BK addresses in the manual. If a person is getting the stove hot enough to burn creosote off the glass, the firebox, and the cat, they are getting it hot enough to keep the flue free of creosote. I can tell you first hand, it takes getting the cat probe into the upper range for approx 30 minutes (like the manual states) to clean the glass. At those temps, for that long, the flue WILL be free of creosote (with daily burn offs).



I've done that a few times by accident. Loaded the stove and got distracted or fell asleep in front of it.

Yeah... it cleaned the glass alright, and also scared the crap out of me. Stove at 800+, house pushing 90*, hot paint/metal smell, whole place rumbling like a train was next door from the draft pulling so hard.


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I've done that a few times by accident. Loaded the stove and got distracted or fell asleep in front of it.
> 
> Yeah... it cleaned the glass alright, and also scared the crap out of me. Stove at 800+, house pushing 90*, hot paint/metal smell, whole place rumbling like a train was next door from the draft pulling so hard.



Falling asleep and accidentally over firing your stove IS NOT the same as a daily burn off or getting into the upper range of NORMAL operation. Just so we're clear.

It's stories like yours that makes the lawyers for the wood stove manufacturers cringe. And I believe that is why they have to be careful recommending daily burn offs. Because when someone burns their house down, through complete fault of their own, they want to turn around and sue the manufacturer.

BTW: The way you describe it, sounds like you fell asleep and left the door open.


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## showrguy (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Too bad you aren't closer to Oregon. Dealer in Hermiston has the Ultra's on sale ($500 off), TTL price $2695 and Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.


Aww,,,, that hurts.....
I know this stove is'nt gonna heat my whole house @ 5600 sq. ft. 
I'm hoping to offset the amount of wood currently consumed by my OWB...
Don't get me wrong, I love my OWB and radiant heat, but the last two winters here in central Pa. have been brutal....around 20 cords each...And I ain't gettin any younger...lol


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Aww,,,, that hurts.....
> I know this stove is'nt gonna heat my whole house @ 5600 sq. ft.
> I'm hoping to offset the amount of wood currently consumed by my OWB...
> Don't get me wrong, I love my OWB and radiant heat, but the last two winters here in central Pa. have been brutal....around 20 cords each...And I ain't gettin any younger...lol



Holy Cow!!! 20 cords!!! You're out of my league bud. We burn about 1 1/4 cords per season (no OWB).

Don't know the specifics of your house but I agree, gonna work to heat 5600 sf. One thing you need to keep in mind is the difference in the way our stove operates in our home and the way your stove will operate in your home. Our stove is "over sized" for our small (1250 sf) home. Because of this, we don't have to run the stove hard. Running these stoves on the low end gives the user much better efficiency (low flue temps). The wood smolders and the cat thrives on that.

With a house your size, I doubt you will be doing much smoldering which will kind of offset why I love the stove so much. Your stove will be working hard to try and heat your home which means you will be operating on the higher end of the burn. Still, I think you will love the stove with its big firebox and the beautifully designed auto damper. Big house or small house, I still believe Blaze King designs and manufactures the best stoves on the market.


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## HarvestMan (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Aww,,,, that hurts.....
> I know this stove is'nt gonna heat my whole house @ 5600 sq. ft.
> I'm hoping to offset the amount of wood currently consumed by my OWB...
> Don't get me wrong, I love my OWB and radiant heat, but the last two winters here in central Pa. have been brutal....around 20 cords each...And I ain't gettin any younger...lol


I can't imagine using 20 cords per year ... that is about 5 years worth for me. Of course, I am only heating 2500 sq. ft. and that is with a WS Fireview. I'm sure the new BK will help tremendously. Never looked into OWBs, but if 20 cord is not unusual, I see no need to looking into them. Did see a video on the Garn units; those look great but way out of my price range. Good luck with your new BK.


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> *Of course, I am only heating 2500 sq. ft. and that is with a WS Fireview*.



After reading this post, it's much clearer now why you posted this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_*"Since you like brutal honesty, here is some for you. You got banned because too many people thought you to be a trouble making @sshole.

What you simply can't see is you are not just a cheerleader for BK ... that would be fine. You go out of your way to criticize other brands and agitate the cheerleaders of other brands. I find it all rather entertaining myself, but clearly the moderators do not."*_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in other words, you got offended because I gave my honest opinion of a particular Woodstock product. So did you ask all those people if they thought I was a "trouble making @sshole"? Or did you just decide that yourself? BTW: You will notice I still operate under the same username because I have no reason to hide and stand by everything I say. Why did you fire up a new username?


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## showrguy (Aug 4, 2015)

20 cords for me in a winter is unusual, 12-14 is about average, The last two winters were way colder/longer/windyr' than normal..
I also have radiant in my garage slab, so that adds about 2K sq.ft. when I have that flowing..
The BK will be an experiment for me.....an expensive one !!


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## HarvestMan (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> After reading this post, it's much clearer now why you posted this:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _*"Since you like brutal honesty, here is some for you. You got banned because too many people thought you to be a trouble making @sshole.
> 
> ...


You are connecting dots that don't exist. You have classified me based on the stove I own ... what are you? A Stovist?


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## Idahonative (Aug 4, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> You are connecting dots that don't exist. You have classified me based on the stove I own ... what are you? A Stovist?



You might be right, I might be a Stovist. I might also be the kind of person that can smell a H_earth leftist from a mile away. You know, the type that preaches tolerance but is intolerant of all other opinions. You know, the type that wants to have a conversation as long as the other person agrees with their point of view. You know, the type that was raised in one of those places where everyone is a winner. You know, the type that thinks you are arguing when you give a differing opinion. You know, the type that loves to live off the system and thinks they are entitled.

I can see why you fired up a membership over here. Heck, even BKVP can't escape the Socialist ways over there. Like him calling out Justin (bhd21478) five days before he showed up on this forum. VP simply said:

_*"Justin,

Your post in laughable! For over a year now I have remained silent to all your web posts and your Facebook comments.

Napoleon makes a fine product line. So go sell them without trying to make excuses or post inaccurate, fictional information.

I have always thought of you as an upstanding guy with a bias...which is your right. Bias is acceptable, but false and misleading information borders on....well lets leave at that."*_

Staff member (Jags) stepped in a short time later and said, "Not on my watch" and locked the thread. I think VP was restrained and professional (& justified) in his response. But at H_earth, if a person even remotely gives the impression they are calling someone out, yep, you guessed it...lock that sucker.

Which kind of gets us back to the question, where is VP? He has logged in everyday over there since Friday but is MIA over here. I can't quite figure that one out especially with the RIDICULOUS STAFF over there that won't let people talk. Maybe someone could PM VP and let the rest of the forum know what's going on.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 4, 2015)

showrguy said:


> the last two winters here in central Pa. have been brutal....around 20 cords each...


And _that's_ why they call OWBs forest eaters...


HarvestMan said:


> I can't imagine using 20 cords per year ... that is about 5 years worth for me.


Same here...even _with_ the brutality of the last two winters


showrguy said:


> I know this stove is'nt gonna heat my whole house @ 5600 sq. ft.
> I'm hoping to offset the amount of wood currently consumed by my OWB...


This may work out pretty well for you.
Let me tell you what I did. I took out our gas logs in the fireplace to install a small (1.2 CF) wood stove just to heat the main floor in the spring and fall on those days when you just need to take the chill off. Reason being was that trying to use our Yukon Husky wood/oil furnace on those light heat load days was just crappin the chimney up (I'm too cheap to fire the oil burner side of the Yukon when I have 12 or better cords of firewood sittin outside ready to go) OK, fast forward a couple years now that I have had a chance to tweak things a bit, here's how I run things.
1. On light heat load days, lets say, 35-40* or above, as long as it's not too windy, I run the stove in the fireplace to heat the 1200 sq ft ground floor. With its small firebox, the stove runs 6-8 hrs on the odds n ends, cutoffs and random uglies that get culled out of the good wood stack into homemade bins made just for the "stove wood"
2. On regular winter days, lets say 0* up to 35*, I run the Yukon which heats the ground floor and the additional 1200 sq ft basement (mainly from radiant heat, but there are a couple ducts to the basement) and will heat the 600 sq ft of the second floor guest room as needed. I have made a few mods to the Yukon to clean up the burn a bit, one of those mods was to reduce the size of the firebox, by about a 1/3, by stacking extra firebrick in the firebox. My intention was to pull the extra firebrick out during the really cold part of the winter when I actually needed the extra capacity. But now...
3. On really cold days, under 0*, what I discovered that works very well is to run the stove, in addition to the Yukon (in its reduced capacity state) together. This has dropped me from 5-6 cords per year on a _normal_ winter, to 4-5 cords (didn't keep good track) _the last two extra cold/long winters_. House stays 72* 24/7...and no more crapped up chimney
So you _may_ be on the right track with your plan there Mr showrdude


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## HarvestMan (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> You might be right, I might be a Stovist. I might also be the kind of person that can smell a H_earth leftist from a mile away. You know, the type that preaches tolerance but is intolerant of all other opinions. You know, the type that wants to have a conversation as long as the other person agrees with their point of view. You know, the type that was raised in one of those places where everyone is a winner. You know, the type that thinks you are arguing when you give a differing opinion. You know, the type that loves to live off the system and thinks they are entitled.
> 
> I can see why you fired up a membership over here. Heck, even BKVP can't escape the Socialist ways over there. Like him calling out Justin (bhd21478) five days before he showed up on this forum. VP simply said:



You remind me of a MASH character 






_Colonel Flagg_: This won't look good on your record.
_Frank Burns_: But Colonel, it's just Reader's Digest.
_Colonel Flagg_: Not if you eliminate the third, fifth, and sixth letters, then it's Red's Digest, comrade.


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## bkvp (Aug 4, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> Chris BKVP, If the BK Princess would have fit into a 25" High fireplace I'd have bought one. So I went with the Beast (Buck 91) instead of the Best   (Mixed Emotions) I'd buy you some Beers Too !!!!


No worries. Buck makes a fine product. They have few cat issues. Just like all cat stoves, maintain a good, tight door gasket seal to avoid thermal shock to the cat. Enjoy the Beast!


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## bkvp (Aug 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Where is VP? Hasn't been seen here for three days. Been showing up over on the Communist site but is MIA here on AS.


Guys,

Very busy in Alaska...still alive. I had not received any alerts to thread activity....sorry!


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## bkvp (Aug 4, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I've done that a few times by accident. Loaded the stove and got distracted or fell asleep in front of it.
> 
> Yeah... it cleaned the glass alright, and also scared the crap out of me. Stove at 800+, house pushing 90*, hot paint/metal smell, whole place rumbling like a train was next door from the draft pulling so hard.


Just left Palmer....headed to ANC-Soldotna. Beautiful weather!!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 5, 2015)

Too darn hot to work in... for both me and the equipment! These temps aren't normal. Usual temps are low to mid 60s, not 80s.

Should have said something, I would have run into town to say hi. I bought my stove from the stove shop in town... drawing a blank on the name at the moment.


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## NSMaple1 (Aug 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> You might be right, I might be a Stovist. I might also be the kind of person that can smell a H_earth leftist from a mile away. You know, the type that preaches tolerance but is intolerant of all other opinions. You know, the type that wants to have a conversation as long as the other person agrees with their point of view. You know, the type that was raised in one of those places where everyone is a winner. You know, the type that thinks you are arguing when you give a differing opinion. You know, the type that loves to live off the system and thinks they are entitled.
> 
> I can see why you fired up a membership over here. Heck, even BKVP can't escape the Socialist ways over there. Like him calling out Justin (bhd21478) five days before he showed up on this forum. VP simply said:
> 
> ...



You got me curious with that so I had to go find the thread & read the whole thing.

I don't see anything wrong with either what BKVP said, or the thread being locked. Sure seemed like the bhd guy was trolling big time, so I agree BKVP had every right to counter what he said (he wasn't the first to do that). And cutting it off before it escalated further seemed OK too. If they really wanted to get 'socialist' (whatever exactly that means), they would be deleting posts all over the place. But they're still there to read.

We might be borderline derailing BKVPs thread a bit - which has the makings of a good one - so that's it for me. But I will say that if I was in the market for a wood stove, BK would definitely be on my shortlist. All kinds of happy BK stove campers out there, which says a lot. Looking forward to more good thread reading on them.


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## Blowncrewcab (Aug 5, 2015)

Since the Same people check all 3 sites (whether they say so or Not  ) there is no safe place to hide.... Just Live, Learn, Be Honest, Be Happy...... (And have Thick Skin cause someone somewhere is gonna piss you off  ) Hey Chris, Welcome Back ....


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## Idahonative (Aug 5, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with either what BKVP said, *or the thread being locked*. *And cutting it off before it escalated further seemed OK too*. If they really wanted to get 'socialist' (whatever exactly that means), they would be deleting posts all over the place. But they're still there to read.



I agree, I don't want to "derail" VP's thread either. But what you said right there is just wrong in my opinion. Nothing wrong with the thread being locked? Nothing wrong with it being cut off before it escalated further? Even if a person doesn't agree with what is being said (as long as no name calling or cursing), members have to be given the freedom to communicate. You can't assume something bad might be said and therefore, lock the thread. They have an obsession with controlling the discussions over there and that makes it a place to go for plastic information. I obviously don't agree with everything that's said on this forum but at least members aren't scared to give their opinions. Just like I don't agree with everything you say, yet, I believe in protecting your right to say it.

In my opinion, your mentality is part of the problem not only on that forum but also in this country (I realize you don't live here). Half of our country is obsessed with being politically correct and making sure no one gets their feelings hurt. You can't have real, grown up, constructive conversations when you have to walk on egg shells and think about how every word might affect someone.


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Too darn hot to work in... for both me and the equipment! These temps aren't normal. Usual temps are low to mid 60s, not 80s.
> 
> Should have said something, I would have run into town to say hi. I bought my stove from the stove shop in town... drawing a blank on the name at the moment.


Paul and Emma (his dog) work the Palmer store. Next time!


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

Allow me to derail my own thread.

The issue isn't freedom of speech. When you are private party you can and should be able to say anything you like. When you are a business, that changes not due to law but due to the court of public opinion. If an individual has a problem with a product, he or she should allow the manufacturer to make it right. When it has been done so, then I would think they could share their situation with the resolution. Just to complain is not part of the solution process.

I recently purchased a very costly new firearm. It is from a company that has an incredible reputation for build quality and customer service. When I took delivery of the new item and pulled the slide, then entire action fell apart and on the floor. I called the company the next day, the day after and the day after that until someone was willing to assist with my dilemma. The upshot, 5 weeks after I took delivery, I was sent the necessary and correct parts. I was pleased to finally receive them. The next day another box arrived with $500 worth of goodies for my patience. They never indicated they were sending the second shipment. This is the first, last and only post on the subject from me. I never posted anything on the web because EVERYONE CAN MAKE A MISTAKE, it's how you handle the situation that matters.

Back to the post that was locked, posters are not hidden by clever web names from liable or slander. Those words are part of our vocabulary for a reason. Opinions are free for all to share, but false information from the uniformed or those with an axe to grind are another whole matter. Manufacturers may have to be careful how they respond to even the most incredulous posts, but there is a world outside the Internet.

I believe, perhaps wrongly so, that this forum is here to help others. If someone is trying to make a buying decision, get help from a manufacturer, receive clarity of wood burning and all that involves, this is a family of knowledge. Let's agree to disagree but in a contstructive manner.

Moving right along.....I will start a new post later (perhaps today) on some of the learning curves we've tackled over the past 35 years refining catalytic stoves.

Best to all....I'm going fishing for Halibut for the next few days!

Chris


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## Greenthorn (Aug 5, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Allow me to derail my own thread.
> 
> The issue isn't freedom of speech. When you are private party you can and should be able to say anything you like. When you are a business, that changes not due to law but due to the court of public opinion. If an individual has a problem with a product, he or she should allow the manufacturer to make it right. When it has been done so, then I would think they could share their situation with the resolution. Just to complain is not part of the solution process.
> 
> ...




Post of the year  right there.


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## Ronaldo (Aug 5, 2015)

I am not currently in the market for a new stove, but if I was I would very seriously consider a BK product. That being said, when I was researching stoves, I remember advice given on cats/secondary burn as follows; if you like to watch the burn(flames) dont go with a cat. Is this still the consensus? My stoves sits in my family room with a great view of the fire and I REALLY enjoy watching it----partly why I decided against a catalytic stove.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 5, 2015)

Way I figure it, buy one of those electric "fireplaces" with a light bulb for flames if you need a decoration. If you want to heat the house, buy a Blaze King. 

If you run the stove with the air turned up some it has flames, otherwise not so much.


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## Ronaldo (Aug 5, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Way I figure it, buy one of those electric "fireplaces" with a light bulb for flames if you need a decoration. If you want to heat the house, buy a Blaze King.
> 
> If you run the stove with the air turned up some it has flames, otherwise not so much.


I dont "need" the decoration, but right now I have a stove that gives me both flame and heat, so I guess I have the best of both.


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

Ronaldo said:


> I am not currently in the market for a new stove, but if I was I would very seriously consider a BK product. That being said, when I was researching stoves, I remember advice given on cats/secondary burn as follows; if you like to watch the burn(flames) dont go with a cat. Is this still the consensus? My stoves sits in my family room with a great view of the fire and I REALLY enjoy watching it----partly why I decided against a catalytic stove.



Ok, let's just start here with a new post...

It's all about burn rate, as defined in kg/hr. As an industry, we know the combustion temps needed to burn cleanly in a non catalyst equipped wood stove is 1176F. A catalytic equipped stove starts cleaning up emissions at 550F. This part is critical...LOW ON A CAT STOVE IS DIFFERENT THAN LOW ON A NON CATALYST EQUIPPED STOVE. Cat stoves burn exceptionally clean as you slow down the burn rate. This is the result of added residence time of the volatiles passing through the combustor. As an example, the weighted average of one model might be .87 gr/hr, but in the low burn rate (certainly less than 1 kg/hr) the emissions are closer to .59 gr/hr. Step up the burn rate to the high burn rate and with all the gases and volatiles flying through the cat, the emissions are closer to 1.9 gr/hr. What is best about this cat specific attribute is that most wood burners burn stoves on low and medium low for 80% of the time.

Well if you set two stoves side by side, with identical draft and fuel and medium burn rates, the cat equipped stove will provide a nice flame and the non catalyst equipped stove will probably produce a bit better flame. Now you can't make this a blanket statement because some of the cleanest burning non catalyst equipped stoves have by passes and that seems to influence the amount of flame that is observed in medium and higher burn rates.

Non catalyst equipped stove tend to show vastly more flame in THEIR low burn due to the higher temperature requirements. This, to be clear, is not an issue of stove brands, but technology.

I was asked this past week to describe how in our stoves we achieve the longer burn times. If this appears to be a promotion, it may certainly appear that way but read all of this before rushing to any conclusions. When any manufacturer claims "x" burn time, another suggests there is only so much energy in a piece of wood (pound applies as well). This is in fact a true statement. However, there is more to the story....

Specific gravity charts show that all species of wood have varying levels of density. In a large stove that can hold 100lbs of madrone at 20% moisture content, the same stove can hold only 60lbs of cottonwood. These are two extremes, but this adds to the complexity of the fuel we love to burn. Cord wood is not a metered fuel. It inherently burns unevenly and factors such a fuel diameter (surface area exposed to combustion), length, specific gravity, moisture content and so much more can effect a burn.

In an appliance with a manual interface to control this uneven burning nature of our fuel, constant attention by the wood burner can help to extend burn times in a particular load. Simply place a thermocouple about 30" above the stove flue collar and each time their is a temperature change, alter the amount of air that enters the stove so as to "even out" the burn.

In the thermostatically controlled stoves, the aberrations associated with uneven burning are addressed for the consumer. There are some very clever designs on the market and more to come. So long burn times are not magic, but achievable....helping to make cord wood a meter fuel in the way that is it burned.


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## HarvestMan (Aug 5, 2015)

@bkvp: Can you provide some insight into why more manufacturers do NOT use thermostatic control for their wood stoves? I had read somewhere that some thought it was due to the expense required to EPA certify the stoves.


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## Idahonative (Aug 5, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Ok, let's just start here with a new post...
> 
> It's all about burn rate, as defined in kg/hr. As an industry, we know the combustion temps needed to burn cleanly in a non catalyst equipped wood stove is 1176F. A catalytic equipped stove starts cleaning up emissions at 550F. This part is critical...LOW ON A CAT STOVE IS DIFFERENT THAN LOW ON A NON CATALYST EQUIPPED STOVE. Cat stoves burn exceptionally clean as you slow down the burn rate. This is the result of added residence time of the volatiles passing through the combustor. As an example, the weighted average of one model might be .87 gr/hr, but in the low burn rate (certainly less than 1 kg/hr) the emissions are closer to .59 gr/hr. Step up the burn rate to the high burn rate and with all the gases and volatiles flying through the cat, the emissions are closer to 1.9 gr/hr. What is best about this cat specific attribute is that most wood burners burn stoves on low and medium low for 80% of the time.
> 
> ...



Thank you VP for posting this. Real good information right here when it comes to explaining burn times. This is what owners such as myself know from experience but aren't smart enough to put into words. It frustrates me when a person will say, [there's only so many btu's in a given amount of wood so I'm calling BS on those long burn times]. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not magic...it's the auto damper. Takes the highs and lows and squeezes them into consistent heat output.

Here's a question for you Chris: Does BK have proprietary rights to the auto damper technology? Maybe a patent? I've always wondered why other companies didn't follow BK's lead in this area. In my opinion, all stoves could benefit from this technology.

And one more if you have time: When my family started heating with wood in 1979, we bought one of the original Earth Stoves. This stove had an auto damper very similar to the current day BK's. I was told that the owner of BK actually split off from Earth Stove back in the late 70's. Is this true? If so, how similar is the auto damper from that Earth Stove vs. modern day BK? They both seem to use a bi metallic coil spring to control the damper (although air delivery location is different).

EDIT: LOL, Sorry HarvestMan, looks like we hit the button at the same time.


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

It is not easy! I can't provide much more for proprietary reasons, but suffice it to say, the complexity adds to potential certification costs.


HarvestMan said:


> @bkvp: Can you provide some insight into why more manufacturers do NOT use thermostatic control for their wood stoves? I had read somewhere that some thought it was due to the expense required to EPA certify the stoves.


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Thank you VP for posting this. Real good information right here when it comes to explaining burn times. This is what owners such as myself know from experience but aren't smart enough to put into words. It frustrates me when a person will say, [there's only so many btu's in a given amount of wood so I'm calling BS on those long burn times]. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not magic...it's the auto damper. Takes the highs and lows and squeezes them into consistent heat output.
> 
> Here's a question for you Chris: Does BK have proprietary rights to the auto damper technology? Maybe a patent? I've always wondered why other companies didn't follow BK's lead in this area. In my opinion, all stoves could benefit from this technology.
> 
> ...


There is no relationship between Earth stove and Blaze King's founder Hal Larson.

The springs used in early Pre EPA stoves share nothing in common with today's EPA stoves. Much more science is involved.

The next step will probably involve O2 sensors and automatic controls. The secret will be how to accomplish this with our AC power.


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## Marshy (Aug 5, 2015)

Froling is already using O2 sensors in their boilers. It's a damn shame their product is so costly though. That level of complexity is likely going to become a necessary evil at the rate we are headed though. 

I was wondering, how does efficiency of the cat and flue velocity relate, inversely I assume or is it more complex?


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

Flue velocity (draft) plays a huge and vital role. It is possible in a manually controlled stove to reach an "overfire" situation. In a cat stove, optimal draft allows for higher (controlled with a thermostat ) temperatures. More importantly is how it allows the cat to remain active all extremely low burn rates. Efficiency is not always a mirror of emissions, but in our experience you acheive improved efficiency in lower burn rates. "Your results may differ etc..."


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## Oldman47 (Aug 5, 2015)

The effect I can see of a cat would be to become more efficient at removing combustibles right up to the point that there is no more fuel/air mix for the cat to burn. As an example if you have a cat that is 4 inches thick and the flow is such that by the 2 inch point everything that can be burned has been burned, changing the flow rate up or down will have no effect. Once the flow is high enough to exceed the 4 inch point, you lose some of the combustion on the cat because you have left over fuel/air mix at the cat's exit. Please note: I have no idea the real dimensions of a typical cat. I am using 4 inches for illustrative purposes.


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## bkvp (Aug 5, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> The effect I can see of a cat would be to become more efficient at removing combustibles right up to the point that there is no more fuel/air mix for the cat to burn. As an example if you have a cat that is 4 inches thick and the flow is such that by the 2 inch point everything that can be burned has been burned, changing the flow rate up or down will have no effect. Once the flow is high enough to exceed the 4 inch point, you lose some of the combustion on the cat because you have left over fuel/air mix at the cat's exit. Please note: I have no idea the real dimensions of a typical cat. I am using 4 inches for illustrative purposes.


Thickness is typically 2". However, thickness would be far more accurately referred to if we say surface area. A reticulated foam combustor (looks like a loofa sponge) has so much surface area, being 1" thick may provide sufficient surface area to provide large reduction in pm. 

Redundant cats applied in series has also been played with. Unfortunately there is a deminishing point of return and the cost factor just keeps going up.

All....for the next day or two my wife and I will be alone in Alaska. Don't panic, I'll be back. Can't get rid of me that easy.


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## Ronaldo (Aug 5, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Thickness is typically 2". However, thickness would be far more accurately referred to if we say surface area. A reticulated foam combustor (looks like a loofa sponge) has so much surface area, being 1" thick may provide sufficient surface area to provide large reduction in pm.
> 
> Redundant cats applied in series has also been played with. Unfortunately there is a deminishing point of return and the cost factor just keeps going up.
> 
> All....for the next day or two my wife and I will be alone in Alaska. Don't panic, I'll be back. Can't get rid of me that easy.


Have Fun!


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## Blowncrewcab (Aug 5, 2015)

we'll Wait........ Your Knowledge is worth it.....


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## unclemoustache (Aug 5, 2015)

Got that right. Maybe we can get BKVP and WhiteSpider to go at it about moisture meters or something.


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## Idahonative (Aug 5, 2015)

Talk on this and other forums has me thinking I better start saving my money to buy a spare BK stove before the EPA ruins them. I realize the stove manufacturers are at their mercy but I don't want a computer controlled stove. Especially one that runs "on the grid". I don't want to have to gas up the generator in the middle of the night when we lose power. I also don't want it to be like modern cars when the engine light comes on and shop can't figure out what's wrong with it. Electronic controls can make our life better but they can also be a nightmare.

EDIT: If I had the money, I would buy a couple King Ultra's just to store until (years down the road), I might need to install another. Yes, I love that stove that much!


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## stihly dan (Aug 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Talk on this and other forums has me thinking I better start saving my money to buy a spare BK stove before the EPA ruins them. I realize the stove manufacturers are at their mercy but I don't want a computer controlled stove. Especially one that runs "on the grid". I don't want to have to gas up the generator in the middle of the night when we lose power. I also don't want it to be like modern cars when the engine light comes on and shop can't figure out what's wrong with it. Electronic controls can make our life better but they can also be a nightmare.
> 
> EDIT: If I had the money, I would buy a couple King Ultra's just to store until (years down the road), I might need to install another. Yes, I love that stove that much!



Why? I have one and it works awesome, works good during power outages too.


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## Idahonative (Aug 5, 2015)

stihly dan said:


> Why? I have one and it works awesome, works good during power outages too.



Because I already have a wood stove that works awesome without electronic controls. I'll ask you the same question, why would I want one?


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## stihly dan (Aug 5, 2015)

You have a fantastic stove. Everything can improve though, don't be afraid of technology.


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## Idahonative (Aug 6, 2015)

stihly dan said:


> You have a fantastic stove. Everything can improve though, don't be afraid of technology.



Haha, I hear what you're saying. But I will probably burn energy logs before I own an electronically controlled wood stove (and everyone knows that isn't happening).

Technology is everywhere now days. Heck, I spent 15 years working in a class 1 clean room in the semi conductor industry. I find myself needing to hold onto a few basic things in life. Cutting and burning wood is real important to me. It feels good to be self sufficient by not relying on big business to heat our home. It's one of the few things in life we can still control. Even though I was involved in making micro processors, I wouldn't know the first thing about how to diagnose and fix problems with the electronics on a stove. A cat stove is about as high tech as I can get.


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## blades (Aug 6, 2015)

Heat and electronics do not play together well. Not that it can't be done but puts me at mercy of utilities- which I try to avoid as much as possible. The power grid over all is getting quite poor interference wise and that is bad ju ju for electronics. Couple that with almost no filter system in power conversion sections of most electronics spells problems for consumers. 25 years of field service work.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 6, 2015)

One of the reason I put a stove in my house was to be "off grid" when the power us out.
It's common to be without power for at least a day or two when it gets windy (often). 
-20, wind blowing 70mph, no power... well least I'm warm.


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## NSMaple1 (Aug 6, 2015)

I wouldn't be afraid of electronics either.

They have lots of potential to improve the burn through the whole cycle, and if the power goes out, it would just likely default to what is 'normal' stove operation today.

You'd likely have to get pickier though about the chimney setup meeting stringent draft specs.


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## blades (Aug 6, 2015)

yep flue draft big effect on burn , previous stove had it own damper built in for draft- now called by pass I suppose, tube type reburn unit, mfg succumbed to epa requirements- didn't want to invest time money on that- as stove were a side line of the main business. still have stove just to small for current place.


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## HarvestMan (Aug 6, 2015)

For those of us who do not have the luxury of the BK auto-damper, what are the tried and true techniques for achieving "low and slow" burns with a cat stove. Here are the variables that I am trying to manage so as to get the longest burn times with low heat output :

primary air control
key damper in 1 foot pipe between stove and thimble (28 foot chimney on high ground)
wood species (MI - so basically eastern species)
split shape and size
firebox load (max 2.2 cu ft in my case)
char time after re-load
I read a lot of wood burning forums and it seems that so many people take quite a while to figure out their stoves. Hoping to reduce this time as I have a new WS Fireview. I've read all the Fireview threads (on multiple sites) and I cannot recall a thread where the owners are trying to achieve long burn times with low heat output as I am trying to do (for me, all winter is "shoulder" season it seems).

Thanks.

EDIT: I guess I am most interested in how I should use the primary air control and the key damper to maximize burn times. In my old Hearthstone, they called the key damper a "throttle", so clearly it is a control even though most stove companies say you don't need one with the new EPA stoves.


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## Idahonative (Aug 6, 2015)

HarvestMan said:


> For those of us who do not have the luxury of the BK auto-damper, what are the tried and true techniques for achieving "low and slow" burns with a cat stove. Here are the variables that I am trying to manage so as to get the longest burn times with low heat output :
> 
> primary air control
> key damper in 1 foot pipe between stove and thimble (28 foot chimney on high ground)
> ...



It obviously will help a lot to burn good hardwood. We don't have that luxury as all we burn is conifer.

Firebox size is also important and getting long burns (& real world heat) out of a 2.2 cf firebox will be a challenge in my opinion. It can't be understated the importance of split size either. My avatar shows some typical splits that we feed our stove. They are BIG and definitely a component to long slow burns. BTW: when I say long slow burn, I'm not only referring to how long a stove will burn but how long it will produce heat sufficient to heat our home to 70*+.


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## showrguy (Aug 6, 2015)

Idahonative,
Lets just say, if you did clean your chimney, would you have to remove the stove pipe from the King, or is that not necessary ??
I'm lookin at a 32+ ft. stainless chimney, so there's gonna be some weight there............I think disconnecting everything would be a major PITA.....


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## bkvp (Aug 6, 2015)

Use a double wall slip connector with double wall pipe. The slip connector works a bit like a periscope in that you can slide it up easily. That section should connect to the ceiling support box. Then the all-fuel will connect on the top side of the ceiling support box.

Chris


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## showrguy (Aug 6, 2015)

bkvp said:


> Use a double wall slip connector with double wall pipe. The slip connector works a bit like a periscope in that you can slide it up easily. That section should connect to the ceiling support box. Then the all-fuel will connect on the top side of the ceiling support box.
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris,
I'm posting a picture of my messy house area, the wife sells that damm 31 stuff that all these women blow there money on, so it's currently scattered about...
Anyway, the location I'm thinking for the stove is next to the fireplace (on the right) where that coat tree is
I thought a picture would explain my install better than typing a description..
BTW Chris, I'm gonna be spending a bunch of money on this, and it's all your fault........for starting this thread.....lol
sorry about sideways picture ...


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## showrguy (Aug 6, 2015)

And your supposed to be fishing !!!


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## showrguy (Aug 6, 2015)

These guys are in my yard.........since I had the camera out..

I forgot to post this earlier..


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## showrguy (Aug 6, 2015)

I think I figured out how to fix the picture ??


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## bkvp (Aug 7, 2015)

Nice Billy and Marty the Moose! So if you place it there, you will need to make certain of all your clearances to combustibles. You most definitely will be using black double wall on the inside.

AF for your taxidermy, you may wish to run a humidifier. Wood stoves tend to wreak havoc over time. You don't want to have it so dry ask to ruin your mounts.

Chris

And yes we are going fishing in the a.m.


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 7, 2015)

showrguy said:


> These guys are in my yard.........since I had the camera out..View attachment 439687
> 
> I forgot to post this earlier..


Winner winner turkey dinner


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## Marshy (Aug 7, 2015)

showrguy said:


> These guys are in my yard.........since I had the camera out..View attachment 439687
> 
> I forgot to post this earlier..


Little bastards. The wife caught one taking a dirt bath in my garden yesterday.


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## Marshy (Aug 7, 2015)

@bkvp, what size flue is needed to support the king model? I did some calling around to my local dealers and had one guy told me that my 8x8 clay lined masonry chimney would be too small. It has an 8" thimble btw.
Last I checked the king called for 8" round flue. 8x8 square has more area than a 8" round... Am I missing something?


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## Highbeam (Aug 7, 2015)

Welcome to this site BKVP. We need all the west coasters we can get.


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## bkvp (Aug 7, 2015)

8" double wall inside. You probably will need an insulated liner. They are usually 9" or more in diameter.


Marshy said:


> @bkvp, what size flue is needed to support the king model? I did some calling around to my local dealers and had one guy told me that my 8x8 clay lined masonry chimney would be too small. It has an 8" thimble btw.
> Last I checked the king called for 8" round flue. 8x8 square has more area than a 8" round... Am I missing something?[/QUOT


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## showrguy (Aug 7, 2015)

bkvp said:


> 8" double wall inside. You probably will need an insulated liner. They are usually 9" or more in diameter.



Howd' fishin go ???


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## cigmaker (Aug 8, 2015)

I second the fishing question... I also pose the question can you handle normal people asking you about more than can I use a 6 inch flue for a king?


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## Marshy (Aug 8, 2015)

bkvp said:


> 8" double wall inside. You probably will need an insulated liner. They are usually 9" or more in diameter.


If I installed a insulated liner into my clay lined chimney wouldn't it reduce the size significantly, down to 6"? The chimney goes up through the center of the house and so the masonry is not exposed directly to the outside air. It's behind siding inside it's own "chimney well" all the way to the peak. 

I read read the king manual that said it should draft 0.05-0.06 inwc. Couldn't I measure the draft with a manometer and call it good if it drafts enough? If it's too much I could add a damper but draft is te main concern right?


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## bkvp (Aug 8, 2015)

Wife showed me up again in front of the guys. We did get four nice halibut yesterday.

As for the King model running on 6", not a good idea as 99% of the time smoke will come out into the room when you open the loading door.

I might add, the top end Btu's and low end Btu's are not much different between a King and a Princess model. Add In the additional expense of a 8" venting system and slight additional cost for the King model, most folks should consider the Princess model. The Princess is the number one model sold in the interior of Alaska where lows can be -60F.


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## bkvp (Aug 8, 2015)

Marshy said:


> If I installed a insulated liner into my clay lined chimney wouldn't it reduce the size significantly, down to 6"? The chimney goes up through the center of the house and so the masonry is not exposed directly to the outside air. It's behind siding inside it's own "chimney well" all the way to the peak.
> 
> I read read the king manual that said it should draft 0.05-0.06 inwc. Couldn't I measure the draft with a manometer and call it good if it drafts enough? If it's too much I could add a damper but draft is te main concern right?


Well it's not always about how much w.c.". The by pass opening on the King is about as large a we can go and even a super 6" system just won't work well.

One of the major necessities for great performance is heat loss. As manufacturers push up efficiency, draft becomes more complicated and harder to obtain. We all know that a thermal efficiency of 85% reduces greatly the ability for a given appliance to draft successfully. Power vented systems are on the horizon, a few are already on the market, but they are very costly.

Given your chimney, you would probably have better performance with a Princess. You could even try to run on the system you have and if it still requires refining then you can consider a 6" insulated liner. If you go with the King, I am certain you will run into issues due to your chimney as you described it.


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## Idahonative (Aug 8, 2015)

Like others have mentioned, everyone's situation is different. We own a seasonal business so when we work, we work long hours. We can easily be gone from 7:30am-10:30pm. We burn pine so having a stove we could set up on a 24 hr. reload schedule (even on the coldest days) was important to us. During our busy season, we really get worn out physically and just don't want to spend a lot of time messing with the stove. We didn't want to come home to a cold house either.

I know we would have been happy with the Princess as well. It's just, given our circumstances (wood type & schedule), having the ability to burn 24 hrs. on pine was top priority. It really came down to how much we wanted to work at keeping the house warm...and we didn't want it to be work.

As far as the 6" flue: I want to make sure I'm not giving people the wrong impression. 8 inch is most definitely what you should run with the King. We had the 6" already there from our previous stove so we wanted to make it work with the King (to save money). FOR US, it has worked just fine. Yes, if we try to open the stove with a full load of fuel we will have smoke spillage. But we don't do that since we reload every 24 hrs. When we reload, there is a nice mound of coals for restart but they don't produce a lot of smoke.

And we have never had the cat stall because of poor draft.

Just our experience.

EDIT: I edited the first line of the last paragraph. I screwed up...it should have read "*8 inch is most definitely what you should run with the King.*


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## Gavman (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey there, Welcome to the site.
Im about to enter my third season on a Princess, the more square modern looking one... Its been a great stove hands down, I fill it up at 5am and she is good till 7ish if I do get home that late.
My one complaint and its a good one is that just inside the firebox at the top, the guts or mechanics of the stove hang down maybe an inch below the top of the door lip and it gets a little frustrating when I am going for the full load and the wood fits through the door but then hits the lip...
Not a deal breaker by any means but it is annoying....


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## bkvp (Aug 11, 2015)

That area is called the dome and the two bolts hold the stainless steel dome guard in place. In our newer models, the dome area is raised up a bit, addressing your observation.

I am glad you are enjoying your stove!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 11, 2015)

Gavman said:


> Hey there, Welcome to the site.
> Im about to enter my third season on a Princess, the more square modern looking one... Its been a great stove hands down, I fill it up at 5am and she is good till 7ish if I do get home that late.
> My one complaint and its a good one is that just inside the firebox at the top, the guts or mechanics of the stove hang down maybe an inch below the top of the door lip and it gets a little frustrating when I am going for the full load and the wood fits through the door but then hits the lip...
> Not a deal breaker by any means but it is annoying....



I have a few scars from being burned on that darn lip! Couple times I've hit it hard enough that I had to make sure the stove didn't get pushed back.

I normally only empty the ash out maybe once a month or longer since it means turning on the gas heat for a day or two to allow the stove to go cold. (Otherwise the hot ash dust makes a big mess..floats around all over the house)

When it's close to full I try to get every little piece of wood in there.

I do have the ash pan dealio, but it makes a even bigger mess.


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## Highbeam (Aug 11, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I have a few scars from being burned on that darn lip! Couple times I've hit it hard enough that I had to make sure the stove didn't get pushed back.
> 
> I normally only empty the ash out maybe once a month or longer since it means turning on the gas heat for a day or two to allow the stove to go cold. (Otherwise the hot ash dust makes a big mess..floats around all over the house)
> 
> ...



You know, I just started using the ash pan on my ultra this last year in an effort to minimize dust in the house. It has some limitations, biggest being that only a couple inches of ash will fill the thing to the top. However, I don't wait for the stove to go cold. I do it right before a reload. The secret is to leave the ashes in the ash pan until they are cool and settled. This is just so that you can take them outside without stirring the ashes. So dump the ashes into the pan, then restart your fire, get it going good and cat engaged, and then go back and pull that ash pan outside.

If you let the belly of the stove fill with ash then the ash pan might be more hassle than it is worth but for occasional dumps of 2" it's not bad. Cleaner than an open bucket with warm ashes.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 11, 2015)

Yeah normally when I clean the stove the ash fills a 5 gal pail. I find the stove holds heat/coals longer with a good, several inch, bed of ash in it.


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## wampum (Aug 12, 2015)

Okay BKVP I now heat with a Woodstock Fireview.Good stove but you have to replace the guts every few years.8 to 10 hour burns are pushing it.I usually get up about 4 am and refill it to make it to morning.I have heard reports of the King going 40 hours on a burn,I believe that to be more BS then reality.It may burn 40 hours but the heat out put does not keep a home inside at 70 when it is at 10 below outside for 40 hours,I just can not believe that.What I have read I believe the Princess would work for me.I am asking you not Idaho native or valley but you,what in reality can I expect in terms of burn time keeping a home at 70 in -zero weather outside?Also should I expect to replace steel inside the stove on a regular basis.Woodstock told me I am burning the stove to hot and this is because I season the wood for 2 years.What say you?


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## Idahonative (Aug 12, 2015)

[sarc]Anyone who claims a King model will "heat" your home for 40 hours is a liar. It's impossible...can't be done...fairytale BS. Furthermore, Blaze King stoves are junk...will only heat your home for 5 hours...don't even consider buying one...you won't like them.[end sarc]


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## wampum (Aug 12, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> [sarc]Anyone who claims a King model will "heat" your home for 40 hours is a liar. It's impossible...can't be done...fairytale BS. Furthermore, Blaze King stoves are junk...will only heat your home for 5 hours...don't even consider buying one...you won't like them.[end sarc]




Thanks for the info,I figured the claims were BS.I had hoped to get some info from BKVP but you seem knowledgable.So I will definitely not buy a Blaze King and will not need to follow this thread anymore so I will unsubscribe.5 hours, my woodstock does a lot better then that.You just saved me a nice amount of money,thanks again.


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## Gavman (Aug 12, 2015)

ha ha the two of you should be buddies, sounds like you would get on great ha ha


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## bkvp (Aug 12, 2015)

wampum said:


> Thanks for the info,I figured the claims were BS.I had hoped to get some info from BKVP but you seem knowledgable.So I will definitely not buy a Blaze King and will not need to follow this thread anymore so I will unsubscribe.5 hours, my woodstock does a lot better then that.You just saved me a nice amount of money,thanks again.




I would appreciate the opportunity to answer your question. First off, any manufacturer that would try to address your question and then provide you a credible answer or promise is a fool.

There are so many variables that effect burn time. Let's address the Fireview first. Woodstock makes outstanding products and is run by a great group of people. Your experience with having to rebuild the unit internally might suggest a couple of items. PERHAPS (this means I cannot be certain) the firebox capacity is not large enough to carry a sufficient amount of fuel to heat your home to the desired temperature for a given time frame. Often when that is the case, stoves are asked to perform at a higher level (output), for longer periods of time than designed. In our lab we have watched what happens when the heat being lost up the stack takes over and stimulates draft. I suspect that in order to keep your home at 70 degrees when it is -10f, the 80 degree differential really tests your stove, as it would test any stove with a manual air control. If you load your stove and then head off to work or bed and the outside temps drop to -10f, your stove will automatically begin to burn hotter without any interference from you the user. The other possibility, an air leak exists somewhere that is allowing your stove to burn hotter than you desire.

Given that you are not awake for all hours of the burn, the very nature of the fuel we burn, will result in uneven heat production, especially when the outside temps fall. We see this routinely in the interior of Alaska where it can easily drop to -60 F.

As to our stoves, the thermostat, given there are no air leaks, interferes with the forces of nature and try's to keep the draft under control. Certainly our thermostats meter out the fuel in a way that is not replicated on other stoves....to the very best of my knowledge. So while a person is sleeping or at work or just out enjoying the outdoors, the thermostat meters out the heat and gives an even distribution for the given amount of fuel in the stove.

There is no alien technology, voodoo or other influence here, just solid engineering.

As to your question, I offer the following: in Fairbanks Alaska, where winter temps are much lower than your -10F, where homes are well insulated, where fuel is limited to basically birch or spruce, a Princess stove can burn up to 10 hours. This is strictly anecdotal and not intended for you to later say ...."you told me I'd get 10 hour burns."

I think your Fireview is a fine stove. The fact that there are thousands of them in the field and they are still selling them would substantiate the quality of the product. I would explore the causes issue before looking for a magic pill in another stove.


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## showrguy (Aug 12, 2015)

bkvp,
Dammitt Chris, You cost me alot of money today....lol
It was fun talking with some of the folks at Bowmans about how this came about (you introducing yourself here, got my wheels spinning again)..They are great people..
I even found out that how much you absolutely love the "Subaru" Motor Co...............hehe
My stove should be ready to pickup in 2-3 wks..
Are you over there scouting for Red Stag ????


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## bkvp (Aug 12, 2015)

I am an avid outdoorsman, which is a tactful way of saying hunter. I did some hunting in New Zealand back in Feb., what a great country! No tags, no licenses, no seasons, no limits. All four legged animals are considered invasive. I chose not to hunt red stag as most if not all of the hunts are on private, fenced properties. Instead, I went after wild boar and found it to be very tiring, challenging and a great amount of fun. I also was afforded the opportunity to thin out some of the wild goats left by Capt. Cook.

As for Bowman's, great store, great American business success story. As for your investment in one of our stoves, thank you very much. The most important fact about owning one of our stoves it to do the dollar bill test from the first day it is installed and then twice a year thereafter. You should read the section about keeping the door seal air tight and adhere to a regular maintenance schedule.

With a tight door seal and good seasoned wood, you should get the full 10 years out of your combustor.

Again, thank you.


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## showrguy (Aug 12, 2015)

Thanks Chris,
I forgot to add my picture above.. Proof..lol


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## bkvp (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm on a flight to Salt Lake that was delayed in Seattle. With 200 lbs of fresh halibut in the belly of the plane and worried about making a connection to Pasco, this was a cool post, thank you.


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 12, 2015)

can you give some information on the other models besides the king and princess. What would you recommend for a 1300 sqft ranch in new jersey? is the ashford 30 as well built as the princess etc.


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## bkvp (Aug 12, 2015)

Woody,

Since all our models (other than the Briarwood) are thermostatically controlled, you will have great Btu control from low to high. For 1300 square feet, either the Sirocco 30.1 or the Asford 30.1 will be perfect, just choose the one that looks best for your home. Both of these have 3" ash depth,while the Princess has 6". The King has 9". The depth translates to how often ashes will need to be cleaned out of the stove and also how many coals will be above the door height.

If you like the look of the Princess, it would certainly do the job as well.


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## Idahonative (Aug 12, 2015)

showrguy said:


> bkvp,
> Dammitt Chris, You cost me alot of money today....lol
> It was fun talking with some of the folks at Bowmans about how this came about (you introducing yourself here, got my wheels spinning again)..They are great people..
> I even found out that how much you absolutely love the "Subaru" Motor Co...............hehe
> ...



Congrats on your new stove Showrguy. You will love it...worth every penny and then some!


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 12, 2015)

My stove is caddy corner and the chimney connector is 22inches from the wall. Will the princess fit without changing the chimney?


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## bkvp (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm on the road...but the Princess rear corners can be within 6" of the wall when equipped with side shields, double wall pipe and fans or rear shield.

Let's move this type of discussion to pm's. The reason I participate on this and other sites is to provide education/information and clarify cat technology.


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## showrguy (Aug 12, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Congrats on your new stove Showrguy. You will love it...worth every penny and then some!



Thanks Idaho,
Your partially responsible too, as well as Chris......lol


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## Babaganoosh (Aug 12, 2015)

I'm in woodys exact position. NJ shore and about 1300 square feet. Corner install. I'd love a blaze king but the price is a killer. I've got a dealer about 90 minutes away. I checked them out last year and no offense most of them are fugly. I'm sure you guys know that already though. Form follows function after all. You guys also probably hate the comparison to Woodstock but the ability to personalize the ideal steel is so clutch in today's market. If you guys could do something like that and have the performance you are known for you would almost corner the market. I think the sirocco and Ashford definitely have some better looks but the price is a killer for me. If I had oil heat or propane I wouldn't care in the least but I have natural gas and I probably don't save any money burning because I'm a first year homeowner and have bought a trailer, a splitter, a stihl kombi and 3 chainsaws in the past 6 months due to this site. Factor in my time and it's cheaper to just let the furnace run. Don't for a second think I'm complaining though, I love every second of it. For a burner like me I can't justify the extra expense to buy a BK. Don't think I haven't thought about whipping out the credit card though!

I'm not going to be in NJ for life though. Might be a BK in my future.


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## cigmaker (Aug 12, 2015)

I myself have been in my first home five years now. Last year was my first winter with my princess insert. I completely understand having to buy all the tools to make burning wood a sane proposition lol. I also realize that between the cost of equipment/stove it's going to take along time to save that money spent. One thing I will say is the feeling of knowing my family will stay warm in a power outage or zombie apocalypse lol is a great feeling. My BK has impressed me tremendously and the heat from wood is unparalleled in my opinion. Not saying you need a BK to enjoy that it's just a choice we each make to keep the family warm.


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## Idahonative (Aug 12, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> I'm in woodys exact position. NJ shore and about 1300 square feet. Corner install. I'd love a blaze king but the price is a killer. I've got a dealer about 90 minutes away. I checked them out last year and no offense most of them are fugly. I'm sure you guys know that already though. Form follows function after all. You guys also probably hate the comparison to Woodstock but the ability to personalize the ideal steel is so clutch in today's market. If you guys could do something like that and have the performance you are known for you would almost corner the market. I think the sirocco and Ashford definitely have some better looks but the price is a killer for me. If I had oil heat or propane I wouldn't care in the least but I have natural gas and I probably don't save any money burning because I'm a first year homeowner and have bought a trailer, a splitter, a stihl kombi and 3 chainsaws in the past 6 months due to this site. Factor in my time and it's cheaper to just let the furnace run. Don't for a second think I'm complaining though, I love every second of it. For a burner like me I can't justify the extra expense to buy a BK. Don't think I haven't thought about whipping out the credit card though!
> 
> I'm not going to be in NJ for life though. Might be a BK in my future.



Only my opinion but...comparing WS to BK is an apples to oranges comparison. The thing that REALLY sets the BK apart from the rest is the auto damper. WS doesn't offer that so to complain about BK's price is irrational to me. If the price is "a killer" and you think they are "fugly", I'm wondering why you are even inquiring about BK in the first place. Sounds to me like looks are more important than performance to you. Doesn't sound like you are even that serious about heating with wood. 

I am in no way talking down to WS products. It's just, in my opinion, you can't compare the two because they are designed and built differently. The performance goal is different as well, with the auto damper allowing the user to get some long "real world" burns. That is not important to everyone however, and if it's not important to you, a different (less expensive) stove is probably what you want.

VP made a statement earlier in this thread that I though was very interesting. He said the coldest city in which they have a dealer is Fairbanks Alaska and 90% of the stoves sold there are BK. If they perform well up there, they will easily heat homes in the lower 48. People up there would probably disagree that the "ability to personalize" a stove is "so clutch in today's market". With their dangerously cold weather, I'm sure personalizing is right down there at the bottom of the list. Heck, I don't live in Alaska and I could care less about personalizing my stove.

Again, in my opinion, you are paying for a quality piece of equipment and superior engineering (auto damper) with BK. That isn't free but you get what you pay for. Just have to decide whats important to you. For people who are serious about wood heat and not letting the stove work them to death, there is no comparison to the BK's.


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## Babaganoosh (Aug 12, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Only my opinion but...comparing WS to BK is an apples to oranges comparison. The thing that REALLY sets the BK apart from the rest is the auto damper. WS doesn't offer that so to complain about BK's price is irrational to me. If the price is "a killer" and you think they are "fugly", I'm wondering why you are even inquiring about BK in the first place. Sounds to me like looks are more important than performance to you. Doesn't sound like you are even that serious about heating with wood.
> 
> I am in no way talking down to WS products. It's just, in my opinion, you can't compare the two because they are designed and built differently. The performance goal is different as well, with the auto damper allowing the user to get some long "real world" burns. That is not important to everyone however, and if it's not important to you, a different (less expensive) stove is probably what you want.
> 
> ...



Are you a paid shill?

Secondly, get your head out from your ass. Reading comprehension and the ability to stay on topic are important. I'd go line by line and tear apart your moronic assumptions but I've learned that arguing with ftards on the internet isn't very productive or fulfilling. Save your keyboard commando fingers because I'm probably not going to bother with your response to this. They aren't kidding when they say you can't fix stupid.


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## Idahonative (Aug 12, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> Are you a paid shill?



No, are you a Troll?

You get on here and act like you are interested in BK but then complain they are just too expensive. Then you insult an awesome company by saying their products are "fugly" and that they should start personalizing their stoves like WS.

Were you really interested in BK when you said this recently in another thread: _*"Tell you what. If my financial plans work out and I get the Woodstock ideal steel I want this year..."*_?

Have a good one Bro.


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## Idahonative (Aug 12, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> Secondly, get your head out from your ass. Reading comprehension and the ability to stay on topic are important. I'd go line by line and tear apart your moronic assumptions but I've learned that arguing with ftards on the internet isn't very productive or fulfilling. Save your keyboard commando fingers because I'm probably not going to bother with your response to this. They aren't kidding when they say you can't fix stupid.



Does the "B" in your avatar stand for Baby?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 13, 2015)

I have no idea what a clutch has to do with a woodstove?


The Princess won't do 40hrs on a load, no way. "Real world" on my stove, I've had enough coals to relit with no matches after 16-17hrs, but that was it. Normally I load the stove 2 or 3 times a day, all depending on the temps outside and inside. The King with the larger firebox I'd imagine could go a bit longer.

If people are saying numbers much different than mine, I'd have to say they are "exaggerating", much the same as some guys with the Dodge "Cummings" claim they can get 30mpg... you know pulling 76,000lbs, uphill both ways, in 10ft of snow, etc, etc.


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 13, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> I'm in woodys exact position. NJ shore and about 1300 square feet. Corner install. I'd love a blaze king but the price is a killer. I've got a dealer about 90 minutes away. I checked them out last year and no offense most of them are fugly. I'm sure you guys know that already though. Form follows function after all. You guys also probably hate the comparison to Woodstock but the ability to personalize the ideal steel is so clutch in today's market. If you guys could do something like that and have the performance you are known for you would almost corner the market. I think the sirocco and Ashford definitely have some better looks but the price is a killer for me. If I had oil heat or propane I wouldn't care in the least but I have natural gas and I probably don't save any money burning because I'm a first year homeowner and have bought a trailer, a splitter, a stihl kombi and 3 chainsaws in the past 6 months due to this site. Factor in my time and it's cheaper to just let the furnace run. Don't for a second think I'm complaining though, I love every second of it. For a burner like me I can't justify the extra expense to buy a BK. Don't think I haven't thought about whipping out the credit card though!
> 
> I'm not going to be in NJ for life though. Might be a BK in my future.


What price did that dealer give you?


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## HarvestMan (Aug 13, 2015)

Babaganoosh said:


> Are you a paid shill?
> 
> Secondly, get your head out from your ass. Reading comprehension and the ability to stay on topic are important. I'd go line by line and tear apart your moronic assumptions but I've learned that arguing with ftards on the internet isn't very productive or fulfilling. Save your keyboard commando fingers because I'm probably not going to bother with your response to this. They aren't kidding when they say you can't fix stupid.


Don't let Idahonative bother you. He can't help it ... his BK enthusiasm has no auto-damper; it runs unregulated ... as he would say, like a WS


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## Del_ (Aug 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Does the "B" in your avatar stand for Baby?



We are fortunate indeed to have the V.P. of Blaze King posting here.

You are sabotaging his presence and Blaze King would be better served if you'd opt out of these conversations.

Please.


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> We are fortunate indeed to have the V.P. of Blaze King posting here.
> 
> You are sabotaging his presence and Blaze King would be better served if you'd opt out of these conversations.
> 
> Please.


 yes please don't ruin this


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## Idahonative (Aug 13, 2015)

Yes, I've said it many times in open and private forum we are lucky to have VP.

If you guys will go back and read post #179, I said no less than three times "in my opinion". If you don't agree with my opinion, I'm good with that. A five week veteran of AS gives his opinion on BK and it doesn't add up to me. I called him out as being a troll and I think I have every right to. Remember, it's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with me.


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Yes, I've said it many times in open and private forum we are lucky to have VP.
> 
> If you guys will go back and read post #179, I said no less than three times "in my opinion". If you don't agree with my opinion, I'm good with that. A five week veteran of AS gives his opinion on BK and it doesn't add up to me. I called him out as being a troll and I think I have every right to. Remember, it's just my opinion. You don't have to agree with me.


Dude let it go


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## Marshy (Aug 13, 2015)

wampum said:


> Okay BKVP I now heat with a Woodstock Fireview.Good stove but you have to replace the guts every few years.8 to 10 hour burns are pushing it.I usually get up about 4 am and refill it to make it to morning.I have heard reports of the King going 40 hours on a burn,I believe that to be more BS then reality.It may burn 40 hours but the heat out put does not keep a home inside at 70 when it is at 10 below outside for 40 hours,I just can not believe that.What I have read I believe the Princess would work for me.I am asking you not Idaho native or valley but you,what in reality can I expect in terms of burn time keeping a home at 70 in -zero weather outside?Also should I expect to replace steel inside the stove on a regular basis.Woodstock told me I am burning the stove to hot and this is because I season the wood for 2 years.What say you?


Wampam, I believe the 40 hr time you read about was a promotional thing BK did. I remember reading the article when I was researching them and they were not claiming it was usable heat for 40 hours but rather just that it held a burn for 40 hrs. Clearly, in the peak of winter it's doubtful most homes in the lower 48 will get half that time in peak winter. Obviously that is a huge generalization even saying that because it depends on location and a lot of other variables.

I' be happy if I could get 8-12 hours instead of 4-6 in peak winter. From what I've heard others write I think its achievable for my circumstance and could expect to use 1/3 less wood for the season. I might get lucky and cut my consumption to half but that might be a stretch and won't know until I get one.

@bkvp, are there any temperature instruments that you feel are necessary equipment to help operat the stove properly?
What about equipment that isn't necessary but you feel is worth the investment?


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## bkvp (Aug 13, 2015)

A quality moisture meter would be a high priority. No other sensors are necessary, although I know lots of guys use IR guns for all sorts of things around the house, including getting stove temps. 

As for the burn times we promote for each of our units, they are not "promotional" but achievable. Here is how we define then burn times. "The catalytic combustor will remain active (above 550F) for that duration of time."

Obviously, as we always say, that is a very low burn. There are thousands of stories of folks using their stoves on 50 degree days, on low and getting the burn times. Obviously, those same people experience shorter burn times as the requirement for more heat is needed.

What is unique we feel is that in most stoves you would need to be careful about how much fuel you add to the stove on a 50 degree day so as to avoid running yourself out of the house. With the thermostat, just pack it full and go do something fun.....like fishing in Alaska!

Chris


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## Idahonative (Aug 13, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Wampam, I believe the 40 hr time you read about was a promotional thing BK did. I remember reading the article when I was researching them and they were not claiming it was usable heat for 40 hours but rather just that it held a burn for 40 hrs. Clearly, in the peak of winter it's doubtful most homes in the lower 48 will get half that time in peak winter. Obviously that is a huge generalization even saying that because it depends on location and a lot of other variables.
> 
> I' be happy if I could get 8-12 hours instead of 4-6 in peak winter. From what I've heard others write I think its achievable for my circumstance and could expect to use 1/3 less wood for the season. I might get lucky and cut my consumption to half but that might be a stretch and won't know until I get one.
> 
> ...



The 40 hour burn time is not a "promotional thing" in our experience. We burned hardwood a couple times and heated the house (not just burned) for 43 and 45 hours. Granted, our house is small (1250) and the King is over sized. But it was nowhere near 50 degrees out on either of those two runs. It was cold (mostly single digits) with very little sun shining. Notice the inside temp never fell below 69 degrees:

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-blaze-king-distance-run.269274/#post-5126383

The forty hour burn has proved to be a real thing for us. But our setup is unique because I don't know of anyone else on this forum who put a King in such a small home. I don't understand why more people don't do it. Like has been mentioned, it doesn't matter what the weather outside is like. Load it full and let the auto damper keep your house at the desired temp.

It's also worth noting that we don't desire or even need a forty hour burn time. We just want to be able to go 24 hrs. between loading and the King has no problem doing that for us while burning pine (even on the coldest days).

*EDIT: Concerning stove size: These stoves are very efficient while burning in the low end range. Yes, they are efficient in the high range as well but not as much. This could help to explain (in addition to small house) our fantastic burn times. Since our stove is over sized, it spends most of it's life burning in the low end. Unless it's very cold out, normal operating temp for our cat is 550* to about 850*. That seems to be the sweet spot for long burn times that will still produce enough heat to heat the house. In that range, there is very little heat wasted up the flue.*


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## showrguy (Aug 14, 2015)

I was planning on bringing in a fresh air supply towards the rear of the stove to keep the house from drawing in cold air (vacuum condition)..
Everyone I talked to about this said "not necessary", while I realize it is probably not necessary, it just makes sence..
However, one dealer said that the cooler fresh air "might" mess with the auto damper thingy ........ thoughts???
The same guy also told me that 30 acouple feet was not good for a stack/chimney height ??? Said it'd be too tall..


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## blades (Aug 14, 2015)

Lot of variables on flue height, biggest are out side variables such as trees , other buildings , lay of the land. If you figure that it might have too much draft, can always add a manual key damper in the flue. Won't really know until the cold hits. I know when my NC30 is humming along and nothing else is on in that room I can hear the air being sucked in through the out side air connection. If I wanted to change the air in the house every hour I would have just put in a fireplace.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 14, 2015)

[QUOTE="bkvp, post: 5491643,

What is unique we feel is that in most stoves you would need to be careful about how much fuel you add to the stove on a 50 degree day so as to avoid running yourself out of the house. With the thermostat, just pack it full and go do something fun.....like fishing in Alaska!

Chris[/QUOTE]

I certainly can't do that with my Blaze King. I very much have to base the amount of wood I put in on outdoor and indoor temps or it'll easily get too hot in the house.
Even most of the winter I have it dialed all the way down.


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## bkvp (Aug 17, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> [QUOTE="bkvp, post: 5491643,
> 
> What is unique we feel is that in most stoves you would need to be careful about how much fuel you add to the stove on a 50 degree day so as to avoid running yourself out of the house. With the thermostat, just pack it full and go do something fun.....like fishing in Alaska!
> 
> Chris



I certainly can't do that with my Blaze King. I very much have to base the amount of wood I put in on outdoor and indoor temps or it'll easily get too hot in the house.
Even most of the winter I have it dialed all the way down.[/QUOTE]

Yes, in Palmer you have the stack effect very few in the lower 48 ever see. So when you hit -20F, most folks are not that low and the chimney does not draw the same. Also, your homes (maybe not yours) in AK are exceptionally well built and tight. I realize their are exceptions, but most of the homes I have seen have 6" plus wall thickness.


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## Marshy (Aug 17, 2015)

showrguy said:


> I was planning on bringing in a fresh air supply towards the rear of the stove to keep the house from drawing in cold air (vacuum condition)..
> Everyone I talked to about this said "not necessary", while I realize it is probably not necessary, it just makes sence..
> However, one dealer said that the cooler fresh air "might" mess with the auto damper thingy ........ thoughts???
> The same guy also told me that 30 acouple feet was not good for a stack/chimney height ??? Said it'd be too tall..


If you did install a fresh air kit ideally you would want to heat the air before combustion.


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## bkvp (Aug 17, 2015)

The F/A is ducted to the stove and is warmed by the 2 (2" dia.) steel air tubes before entering the firebox.
Most folks find the F/A kit helps use a little less wood and the thermostat setting will change slightly for before F/A use and once connected. It will not hurt performance, just enhance it.

The F/A line cannot be run above the height of the bottom of the firebox. It can wall or floor exit. In wall exits, be mindful of snow accumulation and possible issues related to snow fall blocking air inlet.


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## showrguy (Aug 17, 2015)

bkvp said:


> The F/A is ducted to the stove and is warmed by the 2 (2" dia.) steel air tubes before entering the firebox.
> Most folks find the F/A kit helps use a little less wood and the thermostat setting will change slightly for before F/A use and once connected. It will not hurt performance, just enhance it.
> 
> The F/A line cannot be run above the height of the bottom of the firebox. It can wall or floor exit. In wall exits, be mindful of snow accumulation and possible issues related to snow fall blocking air inlet.


My thought on the fresh air being delivered to the stove area, is to replace the air that's going up the flue.....Not so much as a "fresh air kit"....If that makes sense ??
Hell, maybe we're talking about the same thing actually ??

Edit :: I just searched some stuff,,,,,,,,,, now I understand what you are talking about..
Thanks, Chuck


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## bkvp (Aug 17, 2015)

Chuck,

Please tell my wife that someone understands me!

Chris


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 18, 2015)

bkvp said:


> I certainly can't do that with my Blaze King. I very much have to base the amount of wood I put in on outdoor and indoor temps or it'll easily get too hot in the house.
> Even most of the winter I have it dialed all the way down.



Yes, in Palmer you have the stack effect very few in the lower 48 ever see. So when you hit -20F, most folks are not that low and the chimney does not draw the same. Also, your homes (maybe not yours) in AK are exceptionally well built and tight. I realize their are exceptions, but most of the homes I have seen have 6" plus wall thickness.[/QUOTE]

Yeah 6" is normal for exterior walls, I've seen some homes with 8" as well. I have r21 in the walls and r60 in the attic.

Today was the first day this summer I lit the stove. Been in the 50s and rainy and was a bit chilly in the house. (63*) I just put 3 spruce splits and the house is 75*. Made it 2 months with no fire.


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## bkvp (Aug 18, 2015)

The fireweed was indicating 6 weeks to snow 3 weeks ago. Out driving at Kashwitna and saw fire damage then went up Hatcher and it was much cooler.

Almost zero visabilty in Walla Walla due to fires and in 90's everyday or hotter!


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## Blowncrewcab (Aug 19, 2015)

Yeah, Your part of the Country is Toast... Literally... Seems like one or two good rainfalls could fix that.... But Nooooooo, Instead it'll be Dry & Windy.... That's F'd Up......


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## bkvp (Aug 19, 2015)

Yeah...but I have mule deer, whitetail deer, elk and black bear all within 5 minutes of my front door! That's unless the wolves ate them!!


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## showrguy (Aug 23, 2015)

It's here...........Came a week and a half sooner than they said..
Question, can I remove one or both of the side shields ??


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## bkvp (Aug 23, 2015)

All clearances are based upon exactly the way it ships. We have no alternate clearances. Why remove them?

Chris


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## showrguy (Aug 23, 2015)

bkvp said:


> All clearances are based upon exactly the way it ships. We have no alternate clearances. Why remove them?
> 
> Chris


Hi Chris,
I was thinking it'd make better/more heat without them ?????????
Or am I overthinking something here ??
Thanks, Chuck


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## bkvp (Aug 23, 2015)

Like the Beatles said "Let it be"

That stove will impress you as is.

Chuck....thanks for making the purchase.


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## showrguy (Aug 23, 2015)

Ok, I'll let it be..

It'll be a bit of a learning curve, but I'll figure it out...... This whole thing is an experiment..

Your welcome, do you guys send out free coffee cups, hats, t-shirts, ect ??? 
When should I look for that in the mail ?? hehe


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 23, 2015)

Here's a good question...

Why are the doors welded on crooked?

I thought it was just mine, but everyone I've seen was the same, including the one in showerguys pic.


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## Idahonative (Aug 23, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Here's a good question...
> 
> Why are the doors welded on crooked?
> 
> I thought it was just mine, but everyone I've seen was the same, including the one in showerguys pic.



That's amazing you can look at a sideways pic on the net and tell the door is crooked. Have you been drinking?

Measured ours and it is dead nuts straight...from the top plate bend to the top of the door is 2 1/8th on each side. You seem to have a lot of weird problems with your stove. I'm starting to wonder if it's not owner operator related.


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## bkvp (Aug 23, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Here's a good question...
> 
> Why are the doors welded on crooked?
> 
> I thought it was just mine, but everyone I've seen was the same, including the one in showerguys pic.


What? Measure top of door closed to underside of the top. PM me if they are off please. Very rare to have one not with 1/8". Paul in Palmer can help too.

Chris


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## Deleted member 135597 (Aug 23, 2015)

bkvp said:


> All clearances are based upon exactly the way it ships. We have no alternate clearances. Why remove them?
> 
> Chris


this statement confuses me. clearly in the manuals they list two sets of clearances, one for normal clearance and one for reduced clearance. Are you saying that if you order a stove without side shields, you cannot put them on at a later date to achieve the reduced clearance requirements?


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## bkvp (Aug 23, 2015)

Woody harrelson said:


> this statement confuses me. clearly in the manuals they list two sets of clearances, one for normal clearance and one for reduced clearance. Are you saying that if you order a stove without side shields, you cannot put them on at a later date to achieve the reduced clearance requirements?


The Ultra models are a unique beast. They are made and tested with the side shields. So both the standard install and close clearance/mobile home installation must have them installed on the Ultra models only. In order to get the close clearance you must also have the blowers or rear shield and double wall stove pipe. Regardless, on Ultra models, the side shields should remain on the stove.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 23, 2015)

bkvp said:


> What? Measure top of door closed to underside of the top. PM me if they are off please. Very rare to have one not with 1/8". Paul in Palmer can help too.
> 
> Chris



I've had the stove for 5 or 6 years now, was more a curiosity vs a complaint. I do apologize that I didn't really elaborate enough on my other post.

I just measured my stove and the top of the stove to the door is straight, but the bottom isn't.

From stove top to glass edge on the door is 3.25" (glass edge since door edge is rounded and tough to measure)

From top of "drip edge" to glass edge it's 2.75" on the left and 3.0625" on the right.

Hopefully the pic I just took shows it. Ignore the mess on the top, the kettle got filled too much this winter and boiled over. That mess is all the deposits in our water.


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## bkvp (Aug 23, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> View attachment 442780
> View attachment 442778
> 
> 
> ...


The ash lip is off by 1/4" or more?..Does it appear bent downward?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 23, 2015)

Welcome to site and you guys have a nice product.
I can't afford a blaze king or anything really for that matter but maybe someday i could afford to have one. I can usually get up to 16 hrs of burn time in my stove depending on how choked down it is, the stove is 25+ yr old Ashley circulator i also burn hardwood or anything wood i can scrounge.


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## Idahonative (Aug 24, 2015)

jakewells said:


> Welcome to site and you guys have a nice product.
> I can't afford a blaze king or anything really for that matter but maybe someday i could afford to have one. I can usually get up to 16 hrs of burn time in my stove depending on how choked down it is, the stove is 25+ yr old Ashley circulator i also burn hardwood or anything wood i can scrounge.
> View attachment 442805



Is that Woodstock's new hybrid?


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## bkvp (Aug 24, 2015)

I 


jakewells said:


> Welcome to site and you guys have a nice product.
> I can't afford a blaze king or anything really for that matter but maybe someday i could afford to have one. I can usually get up to 16 hrs of burn time in my stove depending on how choked down it is, the stove is 25+ yr old Ashley circulator i also burn hardwood or anything wood i can scrounge.
> View attachment 442805


I get it....we make a cabinet heater that looks virtually the same. However, not being EPA approved, we cannot sell it in the USA. HEAT ON!


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## bkvp (Aug 24, 2015)

Tom and his crew built excellent products at Woodstock. I doubt very much they would build any cabinet heaters as they work primarily in soapstone.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Aug 24, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Is that Woodstock's new hybrid?


nope just a non epa stove with a massive firebox the cabinet is for looks.


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## Marshy (Sep 29, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Ok, I'll let it be..
> 
> It'll be a bit of a learning curve, but I'll figure it out...... This whole thing is an experiment..
> 
> ...


Any update on your stove? Have you used it a little bit at night or anything?

I've made my calls and I'm going to place my order for a King within the next week.


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## showrguy (Sep 29, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Any update on your stove? Have you used it a little bit at night or anything?
> 
> I've made my calls and I'm going to place my order for a King within the next week.


Have'nt finished the install yet, but hope to get to it within the next week or so...


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## Idahonative (Dec 22, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Have'nt finished the install yet, but hope to get to it within the next week or so...



Any updates @showrguy? How are you liking your new stove?


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## showrguy (Dec 22, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Any updates @showrguy? How are you liking your new stove?


Welp,,,, my source for "dry" wood for this year did'nt pan out, so my sense of urgency has greatly diminished..
I do have about 1 1/2 cords of dry wood here, and hope to finish the install next week ..
I was gonna get it done this week but it's been raining, so it's too wet to be walking around on a 8/12 pitch roof...


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 22, 2015)

Chris welcome to AS good to see you here.
Tonight I am trying something for the first time, the temp outside here is 37* freaking heat wave up here going to be 57* Christmas day !!
I am going to run a load for the first time with the blower off Thermostat on 1.5 or so. From what I have read online and in the manual (I think) using the blower, by virtue of cooling the deck thus cooling the cat thermometer,.. the burn times can be reduced.
Sorry for the run on sentence. Will running the blower shorten run/ burn times? I guess I am just infatuated with having a blower is all. Since I was a kid and heating our 21 room farm house with a Modern Glenwood I have always wanted a stove with a blower. My latest stove an Old Mill 25 did not have one either so I am very new ( since October) using a blower. Jeff


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> Chris welcome to AS good to see you here.
> Tonight I am trying something for the first time, the temp outside here is 37* freaking heat wave up here going to be 57* Christmas day !!
> I am going to run a load for the first time with the blower off Thermostat on 1.5 or so. From what I have read online and in the manual (I think) using the blower, by virtue of cooling the deck thus cooling the cat thermometer,.. the burn times can be reduced.
> Sorry for the run on sentence. Will running the blower shorten run/ burn times? I guess I am just infatuated with having a blower is all. Since I was a kid and heating our 21 room farm house with a Modern Glenwood I have always wanted a stove with a blower. My latest stove an Old Mill 25 did not have one either so I am very new ( since October) using a blower. Jeff


Yes, blower will reduce burn times. The beauty of a thermostatic stove. Fans cool it and stat opens to try to keep stove hot which burns more wood. It's good to have the blowers.


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 23, 2015)

This morning when I got up the stove was no longer in the active zone and over 50% of the wood was still in there. When I filled it I set the thermostat to the " closed " position where you hear the click at about 1.5 or so. I thought the thermostat was supposed to open as needed to keep producing heat?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2015)

"Supposed to", but it's hardly accurate as some people think it might be, at least on my stove. Very common on mine to have the stove going cold and still have some wood in there that comes to life by turning the draft up.

I've been thinking of tearing it out and adding an actual damper control that works off room and stove temp.

this HTML class. Value is https://m.facebook.c

Eh frig this got DAMN website...stupid thing won't let me put links, instead gives that bullcrap.

The place is Inven Inc on the Facebook.


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 23, 2015)

absolutely, I just opened the door for a moment turned the thermo up to wide open and 2 min later all was fine. That said I guess It was a good thing it was not cold out. I am pretty sure it was something that I did not do correctly. I have never owned a catalyst stove so all this is very new to me.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 23, 2015)

Nope, just the damper doesn't move all that much on its own. It's more the design of the stove exhaust and large firebox that allows for a long burn, not so much the "auto" damper.


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## Marshy (Dec 23, 2015)

Purely a guess but maybe the thermostatic air damper has a fine adjustment on it so when it is fully closed there is still some fresh air coming in to maintain a low burn. I know my current stove does. The thermostatic damper has something that resembles the air control on a charcoal BBQ lid so when the damper is fully shut it allows enough to maintain a fire. All I have to do is remove the cage around the damper and I can access it to adjust it. It's not something that gets adjusted normally though.


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## Idahonative (Dec 23, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> This morning when I got up the stove was no longer in the active zone and over 50% of the wood was still in there. When I filled it I set the thermostat to the " closed " position where you hear the click at about 1.5 or so. I thought the thermostat was supposed to open as needed to keep producing heat?



If your cat was not active and you had that much wood left, you need to set your t-stat higher. Setting the t-stat on 1.5 is too low for our stove. Try setting it on "2" unless the stove is producing more heat than you want at that setting. Set on "2", our stove works awesome, keeping the house 70-73 degrees for 24 hrs. And contrary to what others will tell you, the auto damper not only works but works excellent!

BTW: Do you just load your wood, set the t-stat and walk away?


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 24, 2015)

I load it open the thermostat all the way and if need be leave the cracked open. If the cat is active I will close that too. Then I set a timer for 20 min so I don't forget the stove. Then after 20 min I set the thermo to what ever I want usually 2.5 or 3 maybe 3.5 and then walk away.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> I load it open the thermostat all the way and if need be leave the cracked open. If the cat is active I will close that too. Then I set a timer for 20 min so I don't forget the stove. Then after 20 min I set the thermo to what ever I want usually 2.5 or 3 maybe 3.5 and then walk away.



Ok, I'm very confused. You're setting the t-stat to "2.5 or 3 maybe 3.5" for normal, all day/night operation? And with the t-stat set that high, your cat will go inactive and you still have wood left in the stove? Something isn't right here. Now you got me really thinking... Can you explain more about the wood you are burning (type and seasoning). Also, what kind of pipe setup do you have? Straight up vertical? How high? Do you feel like you have enough draft? What is the square footage of your home and is it well insulated?


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 24, 2015)

Yes you are confused, when the stove went inactive I had set the thermo to closed like I said in the initial post. To me your question inferred " so normally what do you do" not the one time you tried something different for the first time like I said in the initial post


The stove has NEVER gone inactive when set at 2-3.5 only when I set it to the " Clink " closed position. So I though the thermo was supposed to open if needed and it obviously did not. I closed it like at the 1.5 lets say and basically the fire went so low the cat was in-active.

So it seems to me that the closed position where I hear the thermo " clink" that setting is too low and will not be of any use to me. If I had turned the thermo to the closed position then back open a fraction,.. it would have run but,... set to the closed position It let the fire go very low to the point of producing almost no heat.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> Yes you are confused, when the stove went inactive I had set the thermo to closed like I said in the initial post. To me your question inferred " so normally what do you do" not the one time you tried something different for the first time like I said in the initial post
> 
> 
> The stove has NEVER gone inactive when set at 2-3.5 only when I set it to the " Clink " closed position. So I though the thermo was supposed to open if needed and it obviously did not. I closed it like at the 1.5 lets say and basically the fire went so low the cat was in-active.
> ...



You can't turn the t-stat down that far and expect it to open enough to heat your house, or maybe even keep burning.

This is my advise so take it for what it's worth with me being an amateur. STOP worrying or even thinking about the "clink". It means NOTHING to us as wood burners. You may need to change the way you think about the t-stat. I think of it the same way I think of a gas furnace in a house. If you want your house to be 70*, set the t-stat to 70*. This is the same for your stove. We like our house to be 70-73* and our stove keeps the house at that temp with the t-stat set at "2". Unless it's really cold outside in which case, we would raise the t-stat slightly.

Find the number on your t-stat that keeps your house the temp your family likes and set it there. It's really very simple.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the t-stat is VERY SENSITIVE. Once you find where you like to run it, say "2" for example, a small movement up or down (as little as 1/8") will significantly change the amount of heat your stove produces. I'm sure @bkvp could give a better explanation of how it works.


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## Highbeam (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> .
> 
> So it seems to me that the closed position where I hear the thermo " clink" that setting is too low and will not be of any use to me. If I had turned the thermo to the closed position then back open a fraction,.. it would have run but,... set to the closed position It let the fire go very low to the point of producing almost no heat.



Now you get it. You set the stat too low. The stat will not override your setting. Pay no attention to the clack sound of the flapper closing because that occurs at different stat settings depending on temperature. Instead use the dial to set the stat.

My set up will stall the cat if I set the stat below the normal gold zone.


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 24, 2015)

I agree it is all new to me and the advice you give is good. I just was experimenting is all the normal range so far has been 2-3.5 we have had very few cold weather days so far.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> I agree it is all new to me and the advice you give is good. I just was experimenting is all the normal range so far has been 2-3.5 we have had very few cold weather days so far.



"3.5" is the highest t-stat setting. If we ran our stove at that setting, the cat would be 1500-1700* and would run us out of the house in short order.


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 24, 2015)

Yes maybe but my stove is brand new and I has no numbers on it just the swoosh label. I have put my own numbers on the stove .
Closed = The number 1 or 12 O'clock,...... wide open = the number 6 or the 6 O'clock position. So I have 6 numbers on my stove 1 being straight up 6 being straight down. I wanted a way to repeat a good setting but so far we have not had consistent weather to work with. One day it is 16* then its 55* it rains almost every other day the weather here sucks basically. I am waiting for the ground to freeze so I can start cutting fire wood I always cut my firewood in the winter. This may be winter with no snow and no freeze the way it looks now. I need to move to the Artic i think.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> Yes maybe but my stove is brand new and I has no numbers on it just the swoosh label. I have put my own numbers on the stove .
> Closed = The number 1 or 12 O'clock,...... wide open = the number 6 or the 6 O'clock position. So I have 6 numbers on my stove 1 being straight up 6 being straight down. I wanted a way to repeat a good setting but so far we have not had consistent weather to work with. One day it is 16* then its 55* it rains almost every other day the weather here sucks basically. I am waiting for the ground to freeze so I can start cutting fire wood I always cut my firewood in the winter. This may be winter with no snow and no freeze the way it looks now. I need to move to the Artic i think.



So your t-stat doesn't look like this?:


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 24, 2015)

not even a little bit it looks like a Nike Swoosh trade mark


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> not even a little bit it looks like a Nike Swoosh trade markView attachment 472869



Ok, thanks for posting that and I now understand more about your t-stat. I'll just mention once again, so everyone out there knows, you put those numbers on your t-stat...it's not like that from the factory.

Let me just say loud and clear if @bkvp is listening: Putting just the "swoosh" on the t-stat SUCKS!!! Once a person finds the setting that keeps the house at a desired temp, it's necessary to be able to repeat the setting. With just the "swoosh", it would be very hard to set the t-stat to the exact spot unless a person does what you did and stick numbers or make a mark on the dial. I'm really not sure what BK was thinking. Hopefully VP will chime in and explain.

On our stove, we set the t-stat to the "r" in "normal" which is right at the number 2 (see pic below). If the weather is a little warmer, we will set it at the "o" in "normal" (lower). If the weather is colder, we will set it at the "m" (higher). Those letters are about 1/8" apart which is just about perfect for us. The point is, it is EASILY REPEATABLE.

I just snapped a pic of the top of our stove. It is currently 70* in our house and 33* and snowing outside (11:55 am). With the t-stat set as described above, and the temp outside, the cat will hover around the "12 o-clock" position which is 1000*. I wish I had a time lapse video of it. You would see the cat temp moving slightly below and slightly above that 12 o-clock position. It truly is an "auto" thermostat just like a gas furnace. When heat is demanded, it opens the damper and produces more heat. When it has heated the house to the desired setting, it closes the damper and produces less heat.


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## Idahonative (Dec 24, 2015)

Talking about the t-stat being a truly "auto" damper on the Blaze King: I just took another pic of the top of the stove. In a little over 30 minutes, look how the cat and flue temps have fluctuated...all on their own, yet the house temp stays the same. The t-stat will automatically adjust the damper (combustion air) all day and night, for 24 hrs. straight and our house will stay 70-73*:

EDIT: We are burning Pine.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Dec 24, 2015)

I set mine at #1. If I left it open to 2 or further the stove would be glowing. If it's -20* outside I might bump it closer to 1.25.

A big thing that screws with the "auto" (haha) damper is cold air from the outside and the blower. The whole intake pipe and part of the back of the stove will ice up when it's cold outside.


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## Highbeam (Dec 25, 2015)

And that's why bk removed the numbers. They got tired of people calling and saying their stove must be broken since they can't run it on #1 like vfw above. Rather than tell them that every setup is different, they decided to remove the numbers. Big mistake imo.


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## Jeff Lary (Dec 25, 2015)

I never knew the other style sticker, but for my own personal use I thought I would just make my life easier if I had something to go by.


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

Jeff Lary said:


> I never knew the other style sticker, but for my own personal use I thought I would just make my life easier if I had something to go by.



I agree, and after seeing your t-stat, I believe you did the right thing putting those numbers on. I guess my thought is...paying $3000+ for a stove, you shouldn't have to make alterations to make it easy to operate. The sticker is a simple, but important thing.


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## Idahonative (Dec 25, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I set mine at #1. If I left it open to 2 or further the stove would be glowing. If it's -20* outside I might bump it closer to 1.25.
> 
> A big thing that screws with the "auto" (haha) damper is cold air from the outside and the blower. The whole intake pipe and part of the back of the stove will ice up when it's cold outside.



Valley, your stove really makes me scratch my head. I've ready many of your posts from the past and it just doesn't sound like your Blaze King is working properly. I wish you could enjoy your stove like we are enjoying ours. If I were in your shoes, I would be looking at every square inch of your setup. Something (or things) just isn't right.


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