# Pricing logs?



## softdown (May 6, 2022)

Just read a thread here talking about .40 board foot. Roughly $64 for a pine log that is 10' x 20". Seems very low to me after watching shows about timber pricing in the recent past.

Have log prices fallen off a cliff recently? Hardly seems worth it to load and deliver for that price. Unless one has access to large lots loaded with 20" logs. 20" is on the very large side for a typical Colorado log . 16" at the base and 13" after the taper might be a typical size.


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## Mad Professor (May 6, 2022)

softdown said:


> Just read a thread here talking about .40 board foot. Roughly $64 for a pine log that is 10' x 20". Seems very low to me after watching shows about timber pricing in the recent past.
> 
> Have log prices fallen off a cliff recently? Hardly seems worth it to load and deliver for that price. Unless one has access to large lots loaded with 20" logs. 20" is on the very large side for a typical Colorado log . 16" at the base and 13" after the taper might be a typical size.


In the east we don't have long stuff but those skinny logs we called "pecker poles"........


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## softdown (May 6, 2022)

Mad Professor said:


> In the east we don't have long stuff but those skinny logs we called "pecker poles"........


Trees grow slower at 9500'. This is also an arid state.

Guess I know why the vast majority of tree companies choose to throw everything in the chipper now. 
Had no idea that 14" would be called a pecker pole. Sounds like they wouldn't even take it.


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2022)

softdown said:


> Just read a thread here talking about .40 board foot. Roughly $64 for a pine log that is 10' x 20". Seems very low to me after watching shows about timber pricing in the recent past.
> 
> Have log prices fallen off a cliff recently? Hardly seems worth it to load and deliver for that price. Unless one has access to large lots loaded with 20" logs. 20" is on the very large side for a typical Colorado log . 16" at the base and 13" after the taper might be a typical size.


pine is pretty much junk, that will offend many, despite being true

factor that with all the beetle kill salvage and the massive pine plantations in the us south, and canadian east, that was meant for a pulp market that no longer exists

pine prices are in the toilet and not likely to improve


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## northmanlogging (May 6, 2022)

i'm sure whatever shows that state timber prices being up are referring to Douglas Fir, which is not pine, or western hemlock, or maybe spruce in certain areas, also not pines, tv show people are not loggers, so a little brevity goes a long ways


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## ElevatorGuy (May 6, 2022)

Pine is junk.


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## softdown (May 6, 2022)

ElevatorGuy said:


> Pine is junk.


Maryland is trash.


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## Mad Professor (May 6, 2022)

Small pine logs like that you a 6 X 6 and maybe some #2 boards, no grade.

When I worked in a mill we'd get thicker pine ~30" + and we'd still get #2 and 6 X 6 but also get some nice clear stuff that got milled into 5/4.


softdown said:


> Trees grow slower at 9500'. This is also an arid state.
> 
> Guess I know why the vast majority of tree companies choose to throw everything in the chipper now.
> Had no idea that 14" would be called a pecker pole. Sounds like they wouldn't even take it.


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## softdown (May 6, 2022)

Two things people erroneously believe:
Colorado has unbelievable big game hunting on public lands- everywhere.
Colorado is full of gigantic trees for the taking. 
N. Mexico has some big ones though. My neighbor went there for his huge logs for a trophy log home.


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## Bearcreek (May 6, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> pine is pretty much junk, that will offend many, despite being true


Doesn't offend me, but I do disagree, depending on the pine. Just like firs, not all pines are created equal. I think Lodgepole makes real nice framing lumber.


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## northmanlogging (May 7, 2022)

Bearcreek said:


> Doesn't offend me, but I do disagree, depending on the pine. Just like firs, not all pines are created equal. I think Lodgepole makes real nice framing lumber.


the white firs are junk... Douglas Fir isn't a "true fir" though... White fir I think is why many folks confuse D Fir with a "soft wood" not knowing there is a difference etc. 
Lodgepole is pretty skookum for pine, problem is finding some big enough to do anything but make teepee's with.


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## softdown (May 7, 2022)

Lowhog said:


> Pine is used for framing, flooring, log homes you name it. The guys that say it’s junk probably drink the Trump koolaid too.


Memories are vague by now. As I recall, D Fir was the defacto premium lumber for framing etc. But we can't hardly build everything out of a wood that grows in such a specific region. Pine does offer a superior R value for the construction of log homes. The lighter the wood, the higher the R value. 
Spruce, pine, and H Fir are also good if properly processed. Especially when considering the strength of southern yellow pine. I think it may be "somewhat resistant" to rot and bugs as well. 
If only giant redwoods grew everywhere. I think we shipped a lot of that wood to S America for use as railway track. Especially Chile. 

Imagine if cottonwood and poplar was a great building material. Woohoo!


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## northmanlogging (May 7, 2022)

Lowhog said:


> Pine is used for framing, flooring, log homes you name it. The guys that say it’s junk probably drink the Trump koolaid too.


that maybe true, but D Fir will always be preferred, just because pine is used doesn't mean its any good at it.


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## northmanlogging (May 7, 2022)

softdown said:


> Memories are vague by now. As I recall, D Fir was the defacto premium lumber for framing etc. But we can't hardly build everything out of a wood that grows in such a specific region. Pine does offer a superior R value for the construction of log homes. The lighter the wood, the higher the R value.
> Spruce, pine, and H Fir are also good if properly processed. Especially when considering the strength of southern yellow pine. I think it may be "somewhat resistant" to rot and bugs as well.
> If only giant redwoods grew everywhere. I think we shipped a lot of that wood to S America for use as railway track. Especially Chile.
> 
> Imagine if cottonwood and poplar was a great building material. Woohoo!


Douglas fir grows all the way into mexico, and into canada, as far east as Montana and Wyoming, including parts of Colorado, Utah, Nevada etc. It technically has the largest natural growth area of any of the major lumber woods. So no, its not hemmed into a specific region. 

Its been planted throughout Europe and eastern Canada, for commercial lumber. (though for some damned reason they prefer Sitka Spruce in Europe? I think because it grows a little faster and has much smaller limb structure, so it can be harvested earlier...)

"hemFir" is white fir and Hemlock, milled out of the same pile of junk wood, but still pays better then pine. Then "hemfir" is sold as its own species at hardware stores, because its cheap. ("white fir" being Grand, Noble, Silver, Alpine etc they all get lumped into the same pile with Western Hemlock)

As for R value? I don't think solid wood next to solid wood is going to make all that much of a difference one species to the other, however, pine is not very rot resistant at all, where as Doug Fir is. the R value argument, is null and void when you consider that chinking, windows and other weather protection is where most of the R value is lost in a log cabin (or any style of home really). Don't let the manufactures lie to you on that one, they use pine simply because it grows straight, is easy to work and is cheap, though I'd bet that more use Doug Fir simply for the rot resistance and strength. 


Redwood isn't actually a very good structural wood, its very close to cedar and cyprus being rather soft and somewhat brittle, the railroads, ALL OF THEM preferred it because of its natural rot/bug resistance and its very resistant to fire, which is important when you're dealing with coal/wood fired steam engines. It does make a rather excellent wood for siding and decking though, much like cedar. Modern sleepers(cross ties) are going to be red oak or Doug Fir, for strength and rot resistance, notice pine isn't in the equation.


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## northmanlogging (May 7, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> that maybe true, but D Fir will always be preferred, just because pine is used doesn't mean its any good at it.


except the koolaid part... I can read, and have fairly good memory, so gaslighting doesn't work very well, and I'm not afraid of skin pigments, losing my job or alternative life styles... 

Also, Jim Jones (of jones town) used "flavor aid" Grape specifically, not the marginally more expensive, and frankly better Koolaid OH YEAH! etc


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## FreakinCoolUsername (May 7, 2022)

Ponderosa and sugar pine can be a high paying wood if they are large enough, though only to specialty mills. As for what trees are best, it all depends on purpose and availability, well wood condition also plays a part. Sometime with pine you can make more selling it as weight wood. Though your not gonna get as much as you would for dimensional lumber. Spruce is a good competitor to doug fir but reqiures cooler temps and more water for optimal growth but is otherwise just as good in my opinion. White Fir isn't the worst thing in the world either, paper mills will gladly take in any white fir but may not pay as high a price. Anyway these are just my opinions and thoughts, like i said earlier it all depends on a lot of variables but when selling logs shop around don't be afraid to call some farther buyers if you can get a better price.


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## cookies (May 7, 2022)

Old growth non GMO southern yellow pine is some of the best wood on the planet while the trees grown on farms are just terrible in every aspect except growth rate. Down here in the deep south there are very old homes from the plantation days with original porches still standing strong. The pine turned into fatlighter, it does not rot and the bugs do not eat it. The only issue is fire, it turns into a fire that burns so fast and hot that often it burns up before it could be extinguished. The treated pine from the store will rot in two years, its trash.


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## softdown (May 7, 2022)

cookies said:


> Old growth non GMO southern yellow pine is some of the best wood on the planet while the trees grown on farms are just terrible in every aspect except growth rate. Down here in the deep south there are very old homes from the plantation days with original porches still standing strong. The pine turned into fatlighter, it does not rot and the bugs do not eat it. The only issue is fire, it turns into a fire that burns so fast and hot that often it burns up before it could be extinguished. The treated pine from the store will rot in two years, its trash.


You make strong points but exaggeration is a suspicion at the moment. 
If treated SYP rotted in two years, we'd be in a helluva fix. 

Though treatments vary, I think copper % is the go to. When done properly it adds noticeable weight I think.


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## Woody912 (May 7, 2022)

softdown said:


> Just read a thread here talking about .40 board foot. Roughly $64 for a pine log that is 10' x 20". Seems very low to me after watching shows about timber pricing in the recent past.
> 
> Have log prices fallen off a cliff recently? Hardly seems worth it to load and deliver for that price. Unless one has access to large lots loaded with 20" logs. 20" is on the very large side for a typical Colorado log . 16" at the base and 13" after the taper might be a typical size.


pine would probably be pallet price around $.29 bf unless it has gone up lately


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## softdown (May 8, 2022)

Woody912 said:


> pine would probably be pallet price around $.29 bf unless it has gone up lately


Pallet price meaning?


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## Bearcreek (May 8, 2022)

softdown said:


> Pallet price meaning?


I think (but I'm not entirely sure) that he means that it'd be used for making pallets. I'm sure that's true in some, but not all cases. There were many pallet mills in the area where I used to live in Ohio and they used exclusively low value hardwoods, primarily the various oaks and maples, but pretty much anything was fair game. I've seen pallets being made out of red and white oak, cherry, silver, red and sugar maple, ash, locust, sycamore, sassafras, buckeye, pig and shagbark hickory, mulberry, cottonwood, aspen and more. In the east, I rarely encountered a pallet on a construction site that wasn't hardwood. Here in the west, softwood pallets are much more common, since softwoods predominate. Basically, low value logs, of all species are often used for pallets.


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## TheJollyLogger (May 8, 2022)

softdown said:


> Pallet price meaning?


Pallet wood, wood that is only good for pallets. Are there even any commercial lumber mills left in Colorado? Half of the cost is getting it to the mill.


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## Woody912 (May 9, 2022)

softdown said:


> Pallet price meaning?



boards used to make shipping pallets. Low end of the scale. Would not believe some of the crooked logs I have seen put on the debarker!


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Pallet wood, wood that is only good for pallets. Are there even any commercial lumber mills left in Colorado? Half of the cost is getting it to the mill.


There is a local mill owned by a local billionaire named Bacon. The logs come from his 170,000 acre ranch. I've heard all they make is 2x4s. Plus they sell some firewood.
He used to take his best logs to a mill in Pueblo, CO while selling the rest as firewood.

Colorado is a very anemic manufacturer outside of Coors brewery.

The cost of getting it to the mill? It isn't worth loading a log and taking it somewhere for $100 in my opinion. Unless they were already stacked. Costs too much to operate heavy equipment in the woods.


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## fishdrivel (May 9, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> Douglas fir grows all the way into mexico, and into canada, as far east as Montana and Wyoming, including parts of Colorado, Utah, Nevada etc. It technically has the largest natural growth area of any of the major lumber woods. So no, its not hemmed into a specific region.
> 
> Its been planted throughout Europe and eastern Canada, for commercial lumber. (though for some damned reason they prefer Sitka Spruce in Europe? I think because it grows a little faster and has much smaller limb structure, so it can be harvested earlier...)
> 
> ...


Very knowledgeable post here but some exaggerations or personal choices?
Pine is not all junk. Even Southern Yellow Pine is not all the same species.
Here in Georgia, Georgia Longleaf Pine is cut down and replanted with loblolly.
Old growth is very good lumber - as good as douglas fir. I'm suspecting you are talking about log cabin wood? 
Beam spacing (from charts) is greater for Southern Yellow Pine than Douglas fir!
Southern Yellow pine is notorious for warping with small wood like 2x's Therefore there are advantages for Dog Fir.
Ponderosa Pine is very good appearance but much lower spans, like cedars. 
Old growth Southern Yellow Pine is higher density than Doug Fir and one reason that old porches and flooring hangs around for 100's of years.


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## Mad Professor (May 9, 2022)

We turned poplar/cottonwood into pallet. Other lower grade was hemlock which was 6 X 6"s and 1 X 4" , not sure if the boards also became pallet.

Small white pine was 6 X 6" and some 4/4 #2 boards, the bigger ones got some 5/4 clear #1 and FAS.

Also did white and red oaks. Those made some nice 4/4 boards and the best stuff was 8/4 that was all clear.


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Not the best article, at all, but there are some interesting points here and there: http://www.woodassistant.com/

Hopefully somebody turns up a far more useful guide.


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Better article regarding pines: https://www.treehugger.com/most-common-north-american-pine-species-1341866

Both articles are poor in regards to what I am looking for:
Ratings for strength, durability, weight, stability, R-value, bug and rot resistance etc.

I used to have this stuff memorized for the major N. American species though I never became too knowledgeable regarding the pine species. There are a LOT of pine species.
Here in Colorado it seems like the vast majority of harvestable trees are pine.

I envy regions with a lot of oak and walnut. Old growth cedar and redwood are also very nice for many applications.


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Having just reviewed several wood species articles I will say this. Kids don't write as well as they used to.


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## Woody912 (May 9, 2022)

fishdrivel said:


> Very knowledgeable post here but some exaggerations or personal choices?
> Pine is not all junk. Even Southern Yellow Pine is not all the same species.
> Here in Georgia, Georgia Longleaf Pine is cut down and replanted with loblolly.
> Old growth is very good lumber - as good as douglas fir. I'm suspecting you are talking about log cabin wood?
> ...


old growth loblolly and longleaf are excellent timber but the new super trees with growth rings 1/2" apart are much less so. White pine like we have in the midwest is more like spruce, much lower strength, not used for framing to my knowledge.


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## Woody912 (May 9, 2022)

softdown said:


> There is a local mill owned by a local billionaire named Bacon. The logs come from his 170,000 acre ranch. I've heard all they make is 2x4s. Plus they sell some firewood.
> He used to take his best logs to a mill in Pueblo, CO while selling the rest as firewood.
> 
> Colorado is a very anemic manufacturer outside of Coors brewery.
> ...


Colorado used to have Magpul until the gov decided black guns are evil and ran them off to Texas!


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Woody912 said:


> Colorado used to have Magpul until the gov decided black guns are evil and ran them off to Texas!


We used to have a couple scope manufacturers as well. Redfield was one as memory serves. Our government is now about as nuts as commiefornia. The mountains and convenience keep me here. Prices went insane in scenic parts of Wyoming and Idaho but we don't hear about that. There are a LOT of people who quietly crave smaller and more responsible governments.


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Thoughts on Ponderosa pine? I think that is the dominant local species. Log homes dominate the area that I work. I know pine is excellent for that - high R-value and easy to work. Not too heavy.


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## Mad Professor (May 9, 2022)

softdown said:


> Better article regarding pines: https://www.treehugger.com/most-common-north-american-pine-species-1341866
> 
> Both articles are poor in regards to what I am looking for:
> Ratings for strength, durability, weight, stability, R-value, bug and rot resistance etc.
> ...


You might try searching the Woodweb and/or asking some questions there.


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## softdown (May 9, 2022)

Mad Professor said:


> You might try searching the Woodweb and/or asking some questions there.


I'm really remote so I mostly socialize on the interwebs. Easier to control in some ways.

Anyway there is this: https://www.wood-database.com/ponderosa-pine/
Interesting that it is classified as a hard pine in spite of its softness.


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## northmanlogging (May 9, 2022)

ya all talking about old growth Southern pine... 
its easy to make wood last when its not getting battered by rain daily, Doug fir has only been a lumber tree for around 150 years, give it time to prove itself for rot resistance. S pines have been used for around 600 years. 


As for old growth, define old growth? its not likely to see a whole lot of either being cut any time soon.


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## Woody912 (May 9, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> ya all talking about old growth Southern pine...
> its easy to make wood last when its not getting battered by rain daily, Doug fir has only been a lumber tree for around 150 years, give it time to prove itself for rot resistance. S pines have been used for around 600 years.
> 
> 
> As for old growth, define old growth? its not likely to see a whole lot of either being cut any time soon.


I think longleaf heart lumber will last almost indefinitely outside. I know a corner fence post that has to be almost 100.


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## catbuster (May 10, 2022)

Wood does not have a long lifespan. Even Cedar outside. It’s not stainless steel. Some of it is more rot-resistant than others, but it all rots eventually. 

Douglas Fir has exceptional properties for structural use. Just because it’s the _best_ does not mean everything else is useless. Lolbolly is commonly framed with in my area. We run a lot of double studs, double top plates and extra blocking to make up for it. It deflects easily, but that’s the nature of the beast. We gotta use what we have.


Some of the wood’s toughness has to do with the environment it came from. The PNW has some harsh weather that trees survive. Georgia gets to enjoy tornadoes and hurricanes, which flatten stands. Between those events, weather is pretty gentle. 

Just my $.02. For free.


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## softdown (May 10, 2022)

catbuster said:


> Wood does not have a long lifespan. Even Cedar outside. It’s not stainless steel. Some of it is more rot-resistant than others, but it all rots eventually.
> 
> Douglas Fir has exceptional properties for structural use. Just because it’s the _best_ does not mean everything else is useless. Lolbolly is commonly framed with in my area. We run a lot of double studs, double top plates and extra blocking to make up for it. It deflects easily, but that’s the nature of the beast. We gotta use what we have.
> 
> ...


Harsh weather in the PNW? Such as a lot of rain? 

Idaho is a great timber state. I wonder what species is dominate in Idaho. Might be Douglas Fir in Oregon?


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## fishdrivel (May 10, 2022)

softdown said:


> Thoughts on Ponderosa pine? I think that is the dominant local species. Log homes dominate the area that I work. I know pine is excellent for that - high R-value and easy to work. Not too heavy.


Ponderosa Pine in California is very straight and soft. Very easy to work, as I remember.
Not as strong as Southern Yellow Pine or Doug Fir.


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## fishdrivel (May 10, 2022)

Woody912 said:


> I think longleaf heart lumber will last almost indefinitely outside. I know a corner fence post that has to be almost 100.


Problem is, Georgia Long-Leaf is an endangered species. People cut it and replace with loblolly.


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## fishdrivel (May 10, 2022)

Mad Professor said:


> We turned poplar/cottonwood into pallet. Other lower grade was hemlock which was 6 X 6"s and 1 X 4" , not sure if the boards also became pallet.
> 
> Small white pine was 6 X 6" and some 4/4 #2 boards, the bigger ones got some 5/4 clear #1 and FAS.
> 
> Also did white and red oaks. Those made some nice 4/4 boards and the best stuff was 8/4 that was all clear.


I have some cabinet grade Poplar standing timber.
I have not been able to give it away. People are giving away pine logs around here! 
Why is lumber so high?


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## softdown (May 10, 2022)

catbuster said:


> Wood does not have a long lifespan. Even Cedar outside. It’s not stainless steel. Some of it is more rot-resistant than others, but it all rots eventually.
> 
> Douglas Fir has exceptional properties for structural use. Just because it’s the _best_ does not mean everything else is useless. Lolbolly is commonly framed with in my area. We run a lot of double studs, double top plates and extra blocking to make up for it. It deflects easily, but that’s the nature of the beast. We gotta use what we have.
> 
> ...



I think it depends on humidity and ground contact.


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## pdqdl (May 10, 2022)

fishdrivel said:


> ...Why is lumber so high?



This isn't difficult to figure out. *Inflation & price gouging*.
With a a bit of "we can't get anybody to work" and a whole lot of "did you buy any diesel recently?"


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## softdown (May 10, 2022)

As of today logs are not high yet lumber remains high for plywood and other sizes. 4x4s and studs have come down at the large stores. Rural areas may still be quite high. 
Hate to say it but a 1/2 day spent driving may be well worth it. I suspect the QC is higher at Lowes and HD. Or priced accordingly.
Just part of what seems to be shaping up as a possibly long squall ahead. Fuel, food, inflation, supply, this executive branch, war, virus, public health etc. Plywood and drywall remain very high. Good luck building without them.


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## catbuster (May 10, 2022)

softdown said:


> Harsh weather in the PNW? Such as a lot of rain?



Lots of wind on the west side of the Cascades that come off the Pacific ocean. They get to lay claim to blowing 60 or 70 for sometimes days on end several times per winter. It used to shut me down with cranes or even placing jetty stone every fall & winter. Not enough to do a lot of damage, but a tall evergreen tree is a big lever arm to keep from breaking off.

Congratulations, you now have tight growth rings because it has to be a tough tree to just survive. Like I said, not going to break one in half like a strong or violent tornado, or a hurricane that blows in excess of 100 that just destroys the trees, but it does make a tough tree.

In the summer, contrary to popular belief, it’s hot and dry in most of Oregon & Washington, and I feel like California is self explanatory. It takes a hardy tree to survive that, as well. As far as wet, it’s pretty much a temperate rainforest for eight months out of the year.


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## northmanlogging (May 10, 2022)

softdown said:


> Harsh weather in the PNW? Such as a lot of rain?
> 
> Idaho is a great timber state. I wonder what species is dominate in Idaho. Might be Douglas Fir in Oregon?


rain, hurricanes, 12'+ deep snow, 100deg summers, no rain for 3 months and no soil to hold water (its mostly rock in the hills) winds of 90mph in the mountains are common, 60mph gusts in the valleys, no sun for 9 months of the year. 

Idaho isn't all that good of a timber state, WA out produces it easily, Oregon as well, only part of idaho that is really timbered is the panhandle and some bits of the fat part, but not much. And the trees don't grow very thick in ID as they are fighting for water, then can get big, but nothing like Western WA and OR 5' dia second growth under 100 years old isn't uncommon 


As for ID species, Pine dominates (or it did before the pine beetle) Doug Fir, W Red Cedar, some spruce here and there.


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## northmanlogging (May 10, 2022)

catbuster said:


> Lots of wind on the west side of the Cascades that come off the Pacific ocean. They get to lay claim to blowing 60 or 70 for sometimes days on end several times per winter. It used to shut me down with cranes or even placing jetty stone every fall & winter. Not enough to do a lot of damage, but a tall evergreen tree is a big lever arm to keep from breaking off.
> 
> Congratulations, you now have tight growth rings because it has to be a tough tree to just survive. Like I said, not going to break one in half like a strong or violent tornado, or a hurricane that blows in excess of 100 that just destroys the trees, but it does make a tough tree.
> 
> In the summer, contrary to popular belief, it’s hot and dry in most of Oregon & Washington, and I feel like California is self explanatory. It takes a hardy tree to survive that, as well. As far as wet, it’s pretty much a temperate rainforest for eight months out of the year.


I've seen entire stands blown over and snapped off in a good storm, I get about 50% of my work because of the seasonal storms scare folks into cutting every tree down they can.


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## northmanlogging (May 10, 2022)

fishdrivel said:


> Ponderosa Pine in California is very straight and soft. Very easy to work, as I remember.
> Not as strong as Southern Yellow Pine or Doug Fir.


California has Sugar pines, and Ponderosa, the Sugar pines are very soft. 


fishdrivel said:


> I have some cabinet grade Poplar standing timber.
> I have not been able to give it away. People are giving away pine logs around here!
> Why is lumber so high?


well... in this "mild" PNW, we've had record rainfall, snow in May, the snow level is still something weird like 4000' at the moment... its ******* May. and
most of the log truck drivers are starting to retire, and them shoes are not being filled, years of doodes bitching about being underpaid and such a dangerous job etc etc etc, has driven off a lot of the younger folks. Not to mention this is sort of the fallout from going mechanized times past you worked your way up from choker setting to eventually running some sort of equipment or driving truck. Now theres just not enough boots in the woods to keep seats full when someone does retire, or die...

Nearly every logging outfit in the area is hiring, for nearly every position, Hel I'd like to hire someone but there just isn't anyone out there worth a damn that is looking for work. 

While we're at it, EVERYBODY is having trouble getting new employees, those that are complaining about not having a job need to do some self reflection.

Also, is there such a thing as Cabinet grade poplar?


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## northmanlogging (May 10, 2022)

While I've got the bit...
I find it hilarious and highly suspicious that guys that have made a living driving trucks, have a nice house, on acreage, drive a newer car, etc etc, and complain about what they get paid. 
Its even funnier when you look at who they work for, a fleet of newer trucks, a big well equipped shop, some of these folks have dozens of newer trucks, trucks I'll add they bought new. 
Then they turn around and ***** about not getting paid enough...
But I've heard union wage goons getting $60 an hour to hold down a seat complain about not making enough either, guess none of them learned how to balance a check book?


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## catbuster (May 10, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> I've seen entire stands blown over and snapped off in a good storm, I get about 50% of my work because of the seasonal storms scare folks into cutting every tree down they can.



I won’t argue that you all don’t have some hellacious blows. I just wanted to point out that you don’t get this type of damage (not my photo) in Oregon & Washington.




Admittedly, those debarked trees and scoured ground are from a tornado that was on the top end of the scale. It was part of the 2011 outbreak that also spawned the Joplin tornado, but this one was more violent. Rolling a 950 ton drill rig is quite impressive.

Sure, Georgia and the rest of the southeast that produces most of the timber in that region don’t get blasted by 295 mile per hour tornados that destroy everything in sight, but honestly, they really do have more violent storms and worse weather, having been through both. Hell, the PNW has hurricanes, but strong hurricanes are about the sole purview of the southeast. 

Anyway, I’m way off track now. Let’s just say Doug Fir is worth more than any type of wood for framing, just because it is. Weather where it grows lends it to being a tougher, stronger wood. Almost ideal for most of the stands to be more durable than others.


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## northmanlogging (May 11, 2022)

catbuster said:


> I won’t argue that you all don’t have some hellacious blows. I just wanted to point out that you don’t get this type of damage (not my photo) in Oregon & Washington.
> 
> View attachment 987402
> 
> ...


while we do get tornados, they are rare, and nothing like the interior east... 
anyway, I'm just sayin the whole mild weather myth is just that... a myth. while no it doesn't get super cold, or super hot, the variations in weather from day to day can be bonkers, it was 60 deg here today, it could snow tomorrow, and I'm not even kidding.


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## pdqdl (May 11, 2022)

When it comes to wind destructive power, nothing beats a strong twister. 
That being said, when it comes to who gets the most storm damage? _Nothing beats a good hurricane_.


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## softdown (May 12, 2022)

Hurricane paths are measured in miles, tornadoes in yards. I'd much rather face a hurricane than being in the path of a tornado. Though the extreme moisture content of hurricane force winds act as a force multiplier.

Many structures are built to stand up to 110 mph winds. Almost none for 250 mph winds.


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## softdown (May 12, 2022)

When figuring the board feet pricing of a log - how is the log measured?
I was looking at a 20' log with a buyer yesterday. The log was about 18" across. Not knowing what to do I gave it credit for being a 12" x 12" x 20'. Worth about $96 at .40/board feet. 
Doesn't really matter if he is able to get a semi load of big logs delivered for $6000 - like he said.


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## pdqdl (May 12, 2022)

Tornados are not to be played with. That being said, there aren't any on the top ten list of natural disasters.









The 10 Worst Natural Disasters in US History


Natural disasters remain one of mankind’s biggest fears: despite increasing technological advancements, humans remain almost powerless in the...




www.historyhit.com


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## pdqdl (May 12, 2022)

softdown said:


> When figuring the board feet pricing of a log - how is the log measured?
> I was looking at a 20' log with a buyer yesterday. The log was about 18" across. Not knowing what to do I gave it credit for being a 12" x 12" x 20'. Worth about $96 at .40/board feet.
> Doesn't really matter if he is able to get a semi load of big logs delivered for $6000 - like he said.



There are several different scaling methods that are in use. Your potential buyer should be able to tell you what is in use.

Doyle and Scribner come to mind.


https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/documents/pb1650.pdf











Doyle Scale


Global Timber



www.globaltimberinc.com






https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/fnr/fnr-191.pdf


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## softdown (May 12, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> There are several different scaling methods that are in use. Your potential buyer should be able to tell you what is in use.
> 
> Doyle and Scribner come to mind.
> 
> ...


He is just buying logs for a log home, not a lumber mill. 

I'm trying to simplify it not become a legal expert on measuring logs.
Rather than try to measure every log I think I'll just quote a price for logging rights to the whole lot. 94% of the trees are cut and limbed. He will load and transport and save ~ $1000 or so for that reason. About 50 logs worth about $5000. So $4000 if he loads and transports to his site about 20 miles away. 
Thats what I'm thinking at this moment. Have yet to ask a firm price. Told him I'd give him a price in 2 days.


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## northmanlogging (May 12, 2022)

softdown said:


> When figuring the board feet pricing of a log - how is the log measured?
> I was looking at a 20' log with a buyer yesterday. The log was about 18" across. Not knowing what to do I gave it credit for being a 12" x 12" x 20'. Worth about $96 at .40/board feet.
> Doesn't really matter if he is able to get a semi load of big logs delivered for $6000 - like he said.


I use this app, https://play.google.com/store/apps/...culator.timbervolumecalculator&hl=en_US&gl=US


softdown said:


> He is just buying logs for a log home, not a lumber mill.
> 
> I'm trying to simplify it not become a legal expert on measuring logs.
> Rather than try to measure every log I think I'll just quote a price for logging rights to the whole lot. 94% of the trees are cut and limbed. He will load and transport and save ~ $1000 or so for that reason. About 50 logs worth about $5000. So $4000 if he loads and transports to his site about 20 miles away.
> Thats what I'm thinking at this moment. Have yet to ask a firm price. Told him I'd give him a price in 2 days.


If you plan on getting into the business of selling logs, then you need to get it right, before you need a lawyer, the log scales are used to prevent folks from getting ripped off, whether its by weight, or by the BF it has to be a set method, otherwise some ******* will show up and claim that they got ripped off and you will be on the hook for it. Or in this case, you might be getting ripped off and will regret it later. 

Though if memory serves, you started cutting this patch, months/year? ago? So it might be best just to be rid of them before they start to rot and stain.


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## madhatte (May 15, 2022)

Last sale I sent up went for just shy of $900/MBF and that was all sketchy big prairie colonization DF full of knots. I expected half that even in this market. I don't understand but I also don't care too much because a paycheck is a paycheck, and mine doesn't change with price fluctuations because government salary. Regardless, I gotta guess that the mills are paying more or the loggers wouldn't be. We all know Home Depot is charging up the wazoo, so that's that, I guess.


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## softdown (May 15, 2022)

madhatte said:


> Last sale I sent up went for just shy of $900/MBF and that was all sketchy big prairie colonization DF full of knots. I expected half that even in this market. I don't understand but I also don't care too much because a paycheck is a paycheck, and mine doesn't change with price fluctuations because government salary. Regardless, I gotta guess that the mills are paying more or the loggers wouldn't be. We all know Home Depot is charging up the wazoo, so that's that, I guess.


Why does everyone toast hours on the net than abbreviate the **** out of things? I don't know wtf the M in MBF means. Hence the thread.


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## fishdrivel (May 15, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> *Also, is there such a thing as Cabinet grade poplar?*


*Yes! *Poplar makes great plywood for cabinets but for dimensional lumber it depends on what you are going to use it for.
I would use it for furniture but I would not use it for cabinet doors, personally.

I don't know if you intended to be funny but you did make me laugh!



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Common-1-4-in-x-6-in-x-4-ft-Actual-0-25-in-x-5-5-in-x-4-ft-Poplar-Board/1000074311?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-bng-_-LIA_MLW_122_Mouldings-Specialty-Millwork-_-1000074311-_-Local-_-0-_-0&ds_rl=1286981&msclkid=a596de0a114c148922c3bc8b1da672b1&gclid=a596de0a114c148922c3bc8b1da672b1&gclsrc=3p.ds


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2022)

madhatte said:


> Last sale I sent up went for just shy of $900/MBF and that was all sketchy big prairie colonization DF full of knots. I expected half that even in this market. I don't understand but I also don't care too much because a paycheck is a paycheck, and mine doesn't change with price fluctuations because government salary. Regardless, I gotta guess that the mills are paying more or the loggers wouldn't be. We all know Home Depot is charging up the wazoo, so that's that, I guess.


if its big oversize stuff, then its getting 1,000-900 mbf at the local mill, more for smaller dia stuff at the big boy mills SP/Hampton. and no one seems to care about knots anymore except the Japan export, which isn't an issue for gub-a-mint wood.


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2022)

softdown said:


> Why does everyone toast hours on the net than abbreviate the **** out of things? I don't know wtf the M in MBF means. Hence the thread.


1000 board feet, 
MBF stands for Manufactured Board Feet, its definitely one of the things that is messed up in translation. 

If you find yourself in a Forest Service sale, they do everything based on CC's which is roughly Tons so you have to do mental leaps to figure tons per approximate MBF to come up with a realistic quote, Most of them are in the 300-1,000+ CC's meaning hundreds or thousands of log truck loads and millions of board feet in timber, the scope of these sales seems enormous to an untrained eye, but a million board feet won't keep the big mills fed for a month, despite which, the forests keep getting thicker and gaining acreage every year.


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## pdqdl (May 15, 2022)

softdown said:


> Why does everyone toast hours on the net than abbreviate the **** out of things? I don't know wtf the M in MBF means. Hence the thread.



The letter "M" stands for 1,000 in the lumber industry, so "_MBF_" is the abbreviation for 1,000 _board feet_. Think Roman numerals for 1000.

To answer your question, if you are in the business, I guess mbf is a more common expression than the words that it represents. If you are talking speed, mph and kph are commonly recognized. Nobody questions psi when they read the label on their tire (while in the USA, the last bastion of the English measurement system). So... kindly don't get so pissy about folks using a common expression that you just don't happen to be familiar with.

Here's a question for you! Why are ALL the movie credits displaying the year it was made in Roman numerals? Even the Romans don't use Roman numerals anymore.


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## madhatte (May 15, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> if its big oversize stuff, then its getting 1,000-900 mbf at the local mill, more for smaller dia stuff at the big boy mills SP/Hampton. and no one seems to care about knots anymore except the Japan export, which isn't an issue for gub-a-mint wood.


It's prairie colonization wood, so it's a mixed bag. Knotty oversize, lots of 8-12" pecker poles, a bunch of pretty nice 20-30" 2-3 saw in between.


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## softdown (May 15, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> The letter "M" stands for 1,000 in the lumber industry, so "_MBF_" is the abbreviation for 1,000 _board feet_. Think Roman numerals for 1000.
> 
> To answer your question, if you are in the business, I guess mbf is a more common expression than the words that it represents. If you are talking speed, mph and kph are commonly recognized. Nobody questions psi when they read the label on their tire (while in the USA, the last bastion of the English measurement system). So... kindly don't get so pissy about folks using a common expression that you just don't happen to be familiar with.


Will that be all sir?


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> The letter "M" stands for 1,000 in the lumber industry, so "_MBF_" is the abbreviation for 1,000 _board feet_. Think Roman numerals for 1000.
> 
> To answer your question, if you are in the business, I guess mbf is a more common expression than the words that it represents. If you are talking speed, mph and kph are commonly recognized. Nobody questions psi when they read the label on their tire (while in the USA, the last bastion of the English measurement system). So... kindly don't get so pissy about folks using a common expression that you just don't happen to be familiar with.
> 
> Here's a question for you! Why are ALL the movie credits displaying the year it was made in Roman numerals? Even the Romans don't use Roman numerals anymore.


well... ya learn somefink everyday... 

The roman numeral thang totally makes sense now though. scribling out 1000, on every thing would take forever. 
As fer the movies, I may be a paid actor... no seriously... but I haven't a clue why they use a janky system like roman numerals.


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## Woody912 (May 17, 2022)

softdown said:


> When figuring the board feet pricing of a log - how is the log measured?
> I was looking at a 20' log with a buyer yesterday. The log was about 18" across. Not knowing what to do I gave it credit for being a 12" x 12" x 20'. Worth about $96 at .40/board feet.
> Doesn't really matter if he is able to get a semi load of big logs delivered for $6000 - like he said.


Doyle scale around here. If 18" on the small end then it is 14x14x20/16=245 bf


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## madhatte (May 17, 2022)

Grading and scaling are two different things -- a cruiser estimates the log volume of standing trees, where a scaler estimates the volume and value of a log on the ground. Because of taper and defect and knots, when we cruise we start with a volume based on the Diameter at Breast Height (DBH, or 4.5 feet) compared against a table that accounts for some of those deductions. Douglas-Fir is our main commercial species here. A 20" stem starts at 400 bf, and then in 16' logs a 120' tall tree might grade out like this: Log #1 2 saw - 15% for sweep, Log #2 clean 2 saw, Log #3 clean 3 saw, log #4 3 saw -50% because forked, log #5 utility, log #6 utility, log #7 topwood/cull. Logs on the truck are usually 32-40', depending on what the mill wants, so why do we grade in 16' logs? Because the math works better, and we can capture the defect more accurately. It doesn't change the scaled volume at all but it gives our cruise data more information about the quality of the wood in the overall sale.


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