# i thought my estimate was low........



## Goose IBEW (Mar 27, 2013)

I just gave a price on a tree that really had me second guessing myself. Red oak about 28-30 inches in diameter at 4' off the ground. The tree is rooted inside the side walk and hooks out to the middle of the street as it goes up, about 65' tall. The trunk is cracked from about 7 feet up to about 18'. I planned on 100% rigging this tree down to avoid damaging the street, sidewalk and curb. $800 without grinding. 

There is also another large oak next to it with dead limbs in it, some just unattached and resting on live branches. $200 to trim out the dead wood. I was going to set 2 lines and transverse between these two trees and leave my tip in the good tree for the removal, no need to worry about that now. Funny thing is, I'm not worried in the least about losing that job. I feel the tree was larger than an $800 removal accounts for, that's not even considering the danger that the crack up the side of it puts into the equation.



Two more slightly smaller white oaks to trim, trees are dumping dead branches on their parked cars. $150 each.

A 5th tree that is about 18" in diameter, tree hooks clean across the street and branches overhang 7.2kv primary. $150 to trim, $650 to remove leaving the stump behind.

Am I in left field or are these low prices? She just called me and told me she found someone in the family who will do it with a "family discount in mind." I simply said thank you for the call and call again if you need anything. 

Am I in the right ballpark with my estimates and how I see the job as a low estimate? The family deal thing gives me the feeling that the job was in the toilet from the get go.


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## timberland ts (Mar 27, 2013)

Its part of the business,pisses you off put nothing you can do. I just lost a 20000 job by 500 bucks. I still question some of my bids. Ill usually get 75% of my jobs. If your less than 50% then worry.


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## DavdH (Mar 27, 2013)

Walk away smiling, you are cheap enough, I charge family extra cause they always want to help!


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## Isna (Mar 27, 2013)

Your prices seem right to me (but I'm no longer in the US...). Some charge lower but do a crappy job (we unfortunately get that often). As said, you have to worry when you get only 50% of the jobs you priced. We are around 70%. It is a pain when, for big jobs, you spend a lot of time pricing and don't get the job. In those cases, we try to know who got the job and for what price. If the price difference is important, no regrets: either he will loose money, either he will do a crappy job... If the job is indeed crappy, they might call us next time even if we're more expensive (happened quite a few times).


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## stltreedr (Mar 27, 2013)

I think sometimes people know that they aren't going to hire you from the get-go. Their brother in law or 2nd cousin or someone tells them to get an estimate and he'll beat it. It's a crappy waste of time, but goes with the business. Your price sounded pretty aggressive to me, especially on the big removal. It's hard to compete with family members, or people that are just trying to make their next rent payment and a case of Stag.

The good news is, these guys get burnt out after they realize they can't make any money that way.

The bad news is, there's usually another one to take his spot.

I suspect there will be wayyyy less people with the work ethic to do this kind of job in the next 15-20 years, though.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 27, 2013)

Around here all you do is climb up w/o ppe and take self portraits and face shots with ur cellphone and then have someone take a pic of u dancing on a stump and then write real big that u will beat any price. Oh and don't forget a picture of your ladder... He must have a cousin


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## rms61moparman (Mar 27, 2013)

She well may call you back after "nephew Joe" half asses it or worse!


Mike


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## pro94lt (Mar 27, 2013)

stltreedr said:


> I think sometimes people know that they aren't going to hire you from the get-go. Their brother in law or 2nd cousin or someone tells them to get an estimate and he'll beat it. It's a crappy waste of time, but goes with the business. Your price sounded pretty aggressive to me, especially on the big removal. It's hard to compete with family members, or people that are just trying to make their next rent payment and a case of Stag.
> 
> The good news is, these guys get burnt out after they realize they can't make any money that way.
> 
> ...



right on!!!!!!!!!!


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## Goose IBEW (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks for the good feedback. The word "aggressive" is very kind, haha. I know what kind of business structure I'm looking to build and selling myself short isn't in the equation. The large tree with the crack in the trunk is realistically a 12-1500 dollar job. I am quite content to have my exit on this one.


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## Zale (Mar 27, 2013)

You can't loose money on a job you don't get. The best hitter in baseball only averaged 400. Don't sweat it.


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## Grouchy old man (Mar 27, 2013)

> She just called me and told me she found someone in the family who will do it with a "family discount in mind."



If they had a tree company in the family I think they would have called them first. So to me that "someone" is uncle George and his idiot son with a Wild Thang and a 40' ladder.


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 27, 2013)

*I think we have lost as many jobs from pricing to low as to high*

WE don't have lots of equipment or a big crew that have to be paid whether they work or not, so our bids reflect our real costs and profit for that job only. Our bids are often less than 50% of the big boys and some folks think they get what they pay for(higher bid means better work) so they wind up with poorer quality work and pay more for it.

I don't loose money on a job some one else gets and I gain more time for fishing!:msp_biggrin:


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## Goose IBEW (Mar 27, 2013)

Grouchy old man said:


> If they had a tree company in the family I think they would have called them first. So to me that "someone" is uncle George and his idiot son with a Wild Thang and a 40' ladder.



I think the son was gung ho to rent a high reach. That job will be a tall task without any rigging equipment. I can see the side walk and curb cracking, haha.


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## since16 (Mar 27, 2013)

*Very fair*

That bid price seems very fair. I normally ad $100 or so minimum for a dangerous tree. Everybody wants to get 90% of their bids. If u don't bid a tree like that for enough u will have to do it fast and on a split tree u don't wanna compromise between time and money.


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## treecutterjr (Mar 29, 2013)

*Same experience this week*

I just had the same experience earlier this week. My friends parents had an Oak in the Back Yard roughly 36" in diameter, maybe 60-70 ft. About 5 feet from the shed that its growing over top of. Narrow, paper thin driveway. everything has to be roped out. If the bucket is in the driveway you have to drag all the brush between the house and truck out to the street. I was VERY hesitant about putting a crane on the thin driveway AND the stump base is growing into the chain link fence

I bid $1500 Tree &Stump, $1350 Tree & No Stump.

My friend text me later and said, "my parents got someone else, I guess you didn't give them the family discount." 

I ride over to check out the competition and its some guys in the yard with 2 PICKUPS and 2 TRAILERS. No helmets, no glasses, no chaps, no gloves. 

WTF!
I was not impressed.

They called me once before for a tree and ended up getting some boot-leg guys. I just went becuase of my friend, but it makes you wonder what some people are thinking when they call you. 

DID THEy expect me to beat "2 Men & a Trucks prices?!!

Its okay to give family and friends a break when its something you can give a break on. But, when its something complicated or highly technical you just have to give it to them like it is. I can give you a cheap/easy price on a cheap/easy tree. Thats it.

you can't win 'em all & I've learned that sometimes you don't want to!


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## Goose IBEW (Mar 29, 2013)

I am quickly realizing that there is a big difference between being a hack and simply just starting out with your business. I practice safe climbing techniques, buy the right gear, and most importantly, supply my workers with gloves, hard hats, high viz vest, safety glasses and hearing protection. Good luck to the ones that give that "family discount", I'm sure their "crew" has much respect for the way they do things.


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## cjtreeclimber (Mar 29, 2013)

Working Cheap gets old. I find more money in the smaller jobs than the big ones sometimes. Better off trimming holly bushes than climbing around in a big ass oak tree and wearing yourself out plus wear on your sharp chains and having to pay for bar oil and all that . . no thanks.


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## Jed1124 (Mar 29, 2013)

I think you might have been a bit low. 800 for a 65 ft oak that needs to be rigged down is cheap. I grew up in Jersey and spent a lot of time in South Jersey on a friends farm. Down there everybody has a cousin that will drop that there tree for ya for a case of busch and a pack of smokes. Don't sweat it. I have to admit it seems like a lot of tree work goes cheap in Jersey. Do they require licensing for tree work? My old man has a magnetic business card on his fridge with a guy advertising topping. I drive around and see a lot of crappy work down there, then again I drive around and see a lot of crappy work up here. Seems to me it's better to work for clients that want to take care of there trees than customers that want removals. You are always competing against the guy with the pickup for the removals.


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## Goose IBEW (Mar 30, 2013)

I think its time to learn some business marketing strategies. Its important to guide your business in the direction you want it to go. If you simply sit back and wait for customers that hire you based on give away prices, you can become stagnant real fast.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 30, 2013)

I think you have to be a really crappy person if you are a tree guy that has family that is asking you for you to do them a discount favor, (family discount), and you have them get a couple bids just so you can under cut them by a couple bucks to line your pockets so you can make your family think you did them a favor,,,:msp_ohmy:
Jeff


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## rms61moparman (Mar 30, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think you have to be a really crappy person if you are a tree guy that has family that is asking you for you to do them a discount favor, (family discount), and you have them get a couple bids just so you can under cut them by a couple bucks to line your pockets so you can make your family think you did them a favor,,,:msp_ohmy:
> Jeff







I think a lot of times people do that just so their family will know what a favor they are doing. 
Especially with older people who in many cases are lost in the 1960's (like me) and think when you tell them you'll do a job for them for the fuel and hired labor cost, they still think................."I paid him as much as I gave for that '51 Chevy I got in 1967!!!...some family discount.



Mike


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 30, 2013)

Time is money,,even family know that.
Jeff :msp_smile:


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## rms61moparman (Mar 30, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Time is money,,even family know that.
> Jeff :msp_smile:









Time is money, even families SHOULD know that.
Doesn't always work out that way though.


Mike


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## mitch95100 (Mar 30, 2013)

I dont care who it is. If you do good work your coustomer will tell 1 person. If you do a ####ty job theyll tell 20 people

Sent from me to you using my fingers


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## capetrees (Mar 30, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think you have to be a really crappy person if you are a tree guy that has family that is asking you for you to do them a discount favor, (family discount), and you have them get a couple bids just so you can under cut them by a couple bucks to line your pockets so you can make your family think you did them a favor,,,:msp_ohmy:
> Jeff



I think a lot of times "family" will get the estimate to make sure that it really is a better deal for them to have crazy uncle Joe take it down. Might be dangerous for Joe but hey, I'm not paying $800!:msp_rolleyes:


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## capetrees (Mar 30, 2013)

Goose IBEW said:


> I just gave a price on a tree that really had me second guessing myself. Red oak about 28-30 inches in diameter at 4' off the ground. The tree is rooted inside the side walk and hooks out to the middle of the street as it goes up, about 65' tall. The trunk is cracked from about 7 feet up to about 18'. I planned on 100% rigging this tree down to avoid damaging the street, sidewalk and curb. $800 without grinding.
> 
> There is also another large oak next to it with dead limbs in it, some just unattached and resting on live branches. $200 to trim out the dead wood. I was going to set 2 lines and transverse between these two trees and leave my tip in the good tree for the removal, no need to worry about that now. Funny thing is, I'm not worried in the least about losing that job. I feel the tree was larger than an $800 removal accounts for, that's not even considering the danger that the crack up the side of it puts into the equation.
> 
> ...



Happened to me too but in the end, the guy paid through the nose. 
Guy called to cut up a downed tree. Did it real cheap, figuring future work. Went around the proerty at the same time and discussed other trees. Said he'd call. Called me 6 months later to give estimates on 7 trees in the yard, cut it all to log length, chip the brush, leave the stumps flush. Told him my prices and a week later, I see two of the bigger ones on the ground. These were the easy ones. The funky ones remained. Month later he calls again to get prices on trees. I figured no way I was doing this again, didn't call him back. Why give him a good deal when all he's doing is "kicking the tires"? Following week he's got "green & yellow" doing the job. 4 guys, chipper, boom truck and a supervisor. No doubt, twice my price.:tongue2:

Point is, price according to what you need. Don't try to keep up with the "industry standard". As a result, you'll get more calls. Family deals are nice on occasion but sometimes, you have to remember how big your family is and how can they return the favor. Where I am, I'm related to half the town it seems but they all refer me to everyone they know so it all comes back to me twice over. Don't be afraid to do a freebee once in a while. I find it goes a long way.


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## TreeAce (Mar 30, 2013)

You mentioned that she called you to tell you about her "family discount". makes me wonder if its even true. Sometimes people say they got a better price (lie) and then hope you are willing to lower your price. She may call you back in a week or two and tell another lie that will involve needing you after all. Or not. I wouldnt sweat it a bit. Reminds me of a case last year. Sold job and lady calls and said she had a "financial hardship" come up and could no longer afford the removal. I said "ok, let me know if I can help you at a later time" and to "keep in mind the tree is rather dead and will continue to decay and become unstable" I also told her "its not to bad (the decay) now but in a year from now the price will most likely change and there is a good chance it will be unsafe to climb". This was followed by a pause and the she kinda muttered "OK" and that was it. Less than two weeks go by and she calls back and asks if I can do the tree. I said sure. Went to do the job and looked at the tree and it seemed different somehow. I started up the tree and noticed some spur marks and noticed a bunch of dead suckers had been cut off. I new it looked different! Guy made it almost half way up (to the first large branch) or 1/4 the way up the tree. So later that day the friendly/nosey neighbor made his appearance and filled in me in how she got a great deal from the other guys except for the part of not being able to do it. And these guys tried it on two different days. My favorite part was that there must have been 5,000 spur marks in the area that was the highest he got.


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## Goose IBEW (Mar 30, 2013)

I will be back to see what comes of it. The woman's neighbor is a good client of mine and I have three more trees to do on his property. It will be very interesting to see the progress when I get the call back to do my client's trees.


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## Zale (Mar 30, 2013)

I don't believe in "friends and family" discounts. If I leave the ground, I get paid. Mom and Dad are the exception.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2013)

I've done family discounts but it comes with no clean up  I want them to see why tree work costs :monkey:


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## woodchuck357 (Mar 31, 2013)

Sometimes the wife changes her husband's mind for him. A while back a fellow called, I stopped by, gave a quote for a simple take down, we agreed to do it next day. I showed up with a single helper, pickup, trailer, and saws. His wife took one look and said no way, she wanted it done right and we couldn't do it with what we had.
A week later, dude calls back, says a neighbor recommended me to fix his fence. I stop by and find the 5 man crew that she hired, with three trucks including bucket, ruined 2 flower beds, and messed up his privacy fence. Being good guys, they cut $250 off the bill to cover the damage. Could I fix the fence for half that? Sure, I could, when I get around to it. That was almost what I would have charged for dropping and cleaning up the tree--without doing the damage. I didn't ask what the other guys charged, but he did tell me they took 3 hours to do a job I would have done with one helper in less than two.

I think I have been called to do all tree work in that neighborhood since.


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## pro94lt (Mar 31, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Sometimes the wife changes her husband's mind for him. A while back a fellow called, I stopped by, gave a quote for a simple take down, we agreed to do it next day. I showed up with a single helper, pickup, trailer, and saws. His wife took one look and said no way, she wanted it done right and we couldn't do it with what we had.
> A week later, dude calls back, says a neighbor recommended me to fix his fence. I stop by and find the 5 man crew that she hired, with three trucks including bucket, ruined 2 flower beds, and messed up his privacy fence. Being good guys, they cut $250 off the bill to cover the damage. Could I fix the fence for half that? Sure, I could, when I get around to it. That was almost what I would have charged for dropping and cleaning up the tree--without doing the damage. I didn't ask what the other guys charged, but he did tell me they took 3 hours to do a job I would have done with one helper in less than two.
> 
> I think I have been called to do all tree work in that neighborhood since.



You will drop and clean up for 250$?


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## TheJollyLogger (Apr 1, 2013)

Wow, I just went up to get one widowmaker today for 250


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 1, 2013)

Simple, no climb, solid dead white oak, few limbs. In and out in less than 2 hours. Only overhead is taxes and insurance, old truck, old trailer, helper never touches a saw. Both truck and trailer will work longer than I will. 

That day we did 2 other jobs, records show helper made $70, and I bought $30 worth of gas. If we had done that little tree helper would have cost me an even $100, and I might have used another gallon of gas in the truck and maybe a tank of gas in the saw.

We do excellent work, hire bucket when needed, and price according to each tree. None of our jobs has to pay for equipment and man power not actually used on that job. 

So yes, I will depending on the tree. And yesterday I dropped a 34"dbh red oak for a hundred. I got the call, went and looked at it, and left 10 minutes later money in pocket and homeowner happily cutting it into firewood.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 1, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Simple, no climb, solid dead white oak, few limbs. In and out in less than 2 hours. Only overhead is taxes and insurance, old truck, old trailer, helper never touches a saw. Both truck and trailer will work longer than I will.
> 
> That day we did 2 other jobs, records show helper made $70, and I bought $30 worth of gas. If we had done that little tree helper would have cost me an even $100, and I might have used another gallon of gas in the truck and maybe a tank of gas in the saw.
> 
> ...



I see, are you the one in craiglist guarantee cheapest price ? I sure hope prices get better here I made more in the 80s before all these fly by's trashed the business.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 1, 2013)

Been around better than 50 years, never advertised, never handed out a business card. Have had more stuff and workers, mostly retired now. Don't grow faster than your market, don't own equipment you don't have to have. The worry of trying to pay for idle equipment will put you in an early grave. Good work for fair pay and everything works out.


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## miko0618 (Apr 1, 2013)

its all about what you feel your worth. I wouldn't feel defeated by this. if your working for a customer that can hire a professional to do the job, they usually make decent money. its unrealistic for them to expect you to risk everything and make less money than they do at their job.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 1, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> its all about what you feel your worth. I wouldn't feel defeated by this. if your working for a customer that can hire a professional to do the job, they usually make decent money. its unrealistic for them to expect you to risk everything and make less money than they do at their job.



The work that needs to be done should determine the price, not how wealthy the customer is. A Wal-Mart exec gets the same price from me as the old lady getting by on social security. I never discount for anyone, but sometimes I do a freebie. It is full price or nothing.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 1, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> The work that needs to be done should determine the price, not how wealthy the customer is. A Wal-Mart exec gets the same price from me as the old lady getting by on social security. I never discount for anyone, but sometimes I do a freebie. It is full price or nothing.



Well at the prices you mentioned full price is survival so I guess I can see that lol. I do some work discounted for elderly and some free if it seems the best thing but my discounts are more than your whole price 


If I truly seen your work was high end I might be tempted to sub you and sit at home lmfao.


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## Goose IBEW (Apr 1, 2013)

Is there any middle ground here? I have seen the half million dollar brigade of arborist trucks and the 2 men/1 pick up deal. I have a C70 dump that I blow chips into, a chipper and an F350 crew cab that tows an enclosed trailer. Trailer houses all the saws, rakes, rigging equipment, backpack blower, and other necessary things. Hopefully it will house a stump grinder this year as well. I do try to price a bit lower as I have no vehicle or equipment payments but I'm not working to cover wages and loaning my equipment out for free.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 1, 2013)

Goose IBEW said:


> Is there any middle ground here? I have seen the half million dollar brigade of arborist trucks and the 2 men/1 pick up deal. I have a C70 dump that I blow chips into, a chipper and an F350 crew cab that tows an enclosed trailer. Trailer houses all the saws, rakes, rigging equipment, backpack blower, and other necessary things. Hopefully it will house a stump grinder this year as well. I do try to price a bit lower as I have no vehicle or equipment payments but I'm not working to cover wages and loaning my equipment out for free.



Well really your price is your price but if known as cheap you will always work cheap! Of course market sets price usually however with folks stuck in 1980 or just wanting beer money that market is flawed. I didn't get in the business to risk all for peanuts but the market now almost demands it!


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 1, 2013)

I have not worked for anyone else in ages, always had to part ways when they wanted to cut corners or put me with a lazy know-it-all as a helper. The last one was almost 40 years ago. Work when and where I want or am needed. Used to price my time at $75 an hour, equipment at $50, paid helpers $10. Now days me $50, equipment $30, helpers $20, I move slower and more carefully, and can't lift as much. And I rest more and often.

Can't claim to be rich, but don't owe a dime, don't want anything I don't have. No Worries!


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## ropensaddle (Apr 1, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> I have not worked for anyone else in ages, always had to part ways when they wanted to cut corners or put me with a lazy know-it-all as a helper. The last one was almost 40 years ago. Work when and where I want or am needed. Used to price my time at $75 an hour, equipment at $50, paid helpers $10. Now days me $50, equipment $30, helpers $20, I move slower and more carefully, and can't lift as much. And I rest more and often.
> 
> Can't claim to be rich, but don't owe a dime, don't want anything I don't have. No Worries!



I see, the not owe a dime is a great idea but that has no bearing on prices because for instance my bucket gets work done more efficient. For example lets say 30" pine needing lowered, cleaned up and stump ground 750.00 now, was 1k easy before all the unemployed bought a poulan. Lets say you would do it for 400 it's a day with no equipment or there about or maybe you actually bid it 750.00 with my bucket and skid I bang it out in 5 hrs and on to next. Point being more efficient can mean more $ Now then we come to the trimming parameter are you abiding by accepted practices in Anzi or are you good ole boy trained ? Do you know growth rates ,water infiltration rates, node, inter node,phototropism role in proper pruning ? structure pruning,topiary's,pleeching, etc. It's a way to separate you from the crowd of toppers etc. I'm not saying you don't please understand but just saying price should reflect to professional standards!


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## miko0618 (Apr 2, 2013)

customers with no experience with a service will go with a big name just because they believe they will stand behind the work. some will go with a higher bid because they don't want shortcuts. some will go in the middle. some will go with the cheapest. and some will never do it at all. that's just how it is.


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## old_soul (Apr 2, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> Sometimes the wife changes her husband's mind for him. A while back a fellow called, I stopped by, gave a quote for a simple take down, we agreed to do it next day. I showed up with a single helper, pickup, trailer, and saws. His wife took one look and said no way, she wanted it done right and we couldn't do it with what we had.
> A week later, dude calls back, says a neighbor recommended me to fix his fence. I stop by and find the 5 man crew that she hired, with three trucks including bucket, ruined 2 flower beds, and messed up his privacy fence. Being good guys, they cut $250 off the bill to cover the damage. Could I fix the fence for half that? Sure, I could, when I get around to it. That was almost what I would have charged for dropping and cleaning up the tree--without doing the damage. I didn't ask what the other guys charged, but he did tell me they took 3 hours to do a job I would have done with one helper in less than two.
> 
> I think I have been called to do all tree work in that neighborhood since.



All crews are not like that, some are very professional. After we clean up you can't even tell we were there. 

Even though its bad to "bring 3 trucks out" like you were implying. Well too bad, maybe its a busy day and all the trucks are needed for the next job. Maybe each truck has its purpose on the job. Maybe they feel like using the machine to load wood. or stump grindings

*I know I'm not going to load wood by hand into a pickup truck just because the cheapazz homeowner doesn't want to pay for a real tree crew to do it.* You can't compare an operation like that to some guy running around in a pickup truck cutting the "easy" ones down

Rope is right, all this kind of b.s. has really ruined this business. I can't count how many people have asked me if I would cut down a tree "just for the wood" in the last few years! And they are dead serious too. Bidding, dealing with people is by far, the worst part of this job.

Go and watch a good crew sometime, who has worked together awhile, and has the proper equipment, and see how much work gets done in a very short amount of time. You might be surprised in that "3 hours"

Sorry, rant over


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## Goose IBEW (Apr 3, 2013)

I will get there. I do know that I am not content working without the right equipment. Having money to grow your buisness should be built into your bids.


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## stltreedr (Apr 3, 2013)

I think some of you on both sides are ignoring one of the key principles of any business and economics for that matter. It doesn't matter what your EXPENSES are. If that were the case, you would lower your price if you paid off a piece of equipment or if you hired a worker for a lower wage than the last. You should always try to keep your expenses as low as possible. You should set your prices according to the MARKET price.

If you feel you are superior to the market, you have built a reputation, you can charge a premium. If you charge less than the market, you are telling everyone that your product is not worth as much as the others. 

If you are far below market price, not only are you selling yourself short, you are screwing up the Market price for everyone else.

You might be the best tree worker in the world, but if you Charge $100 for a job that you KNOW everyone else is charging $400 for, you are no businessman.


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 3, 2013)

*I can think of few higher complements*

than being told I am not a business man! Thanks! 

You can pay $250 a plate at a high end restaurant for the same meal, nutrition wise, that might cost only $5 in a small family restaurant. That's fine, but the high priced restaurateur shouldn't be whining about what the other place charges.

Point being, a big crew with all the latest equipment charging big bucks doesn't always mean the best work and the small crew with minimum tools doesn't necessarily do poor work. If The investment in equipment is profitable and if there is enough business to support the growth you desire AND you do good work you wouldn't be worried about a small crew doing excellent work(those who do substandard work, big or little, are no completion anyway). 

I have a real problem with price fixing in any business.

Judy's diner is not a thorn in the side of La Mansion.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> than being told I am not a business man! Thanks!
> 
> You can pay $250 a plate at a high end restaurant for the same meal, nutrition wise, that might cost only $5 in a small family restaurant. That's fine, but the high priced restaurateur shouldn't be whining about what the other place charges.
> 
> ...




Well perceptions of good work can be misleading and every tree man believes they do great work, some do, some just think they do. Most customers don't know the difference half the time, my customers do but every new customer seems to expect topping. I inform them that the good ole boys they used in the past, though can climb; don't know tree health if it bit them in the ass and then I back it up with literature :hmm3grin2orange: 80% of the tree men in my area of arkansas are hacks 20% are left to inform the public that real tree work is pricey and a profession not general labor!


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## stltreedr (Apr 3, 2013)

The Market for the roadside diner and the market for the high end restaurant are completely different. Markets are based upon products of similar type and quality.

It's the same anywhere you go- If you are in the market for a fast food meal, you will expect to pay 6 or 8 bucks. If you want to take your wife for a steak and Wine on Valentine's Day, you might expect to pay $100. The meals might be the same in Calories, but completely different markets. Their profit margins are probably close to the same. 


If company A and company B both are in the high end steak selling business, and they are right across the street from each other, you can bet that they would have similar prices, or one would go out of business. Same with the tree business.

There is a market for high quality work, and there is a market for cheap work. If a company does high quality work and prices themselves in the Cheap category one of two things happen:

You make less profit than you could or
The customer lumps you in the "Cheap" group and doesn't hire because they want high quality.

I like making full profit, I don't know about everyone else.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> Well perceptions of good work can be misleading and every tree man believes they do great work, some do, some just think they do. Most customers don't know the difference half the time, my customers do but every new customer seems to expect topping. I inform them that the good ole boys they used in the past, though can climb; don't know tree health if it bit them in the ass and then I back it up with literature :hmm3grin2orange: 80% of the tree men in my area of arkansas are hacks 20% are left to inform the public that real tree work is pricey and a profession not general labor!



Also poor tree work is permanent many times not repairable and is malpractice.


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## timberland ts (Apr 3, 2013)

Im right in the middle. I have a bucket chipper stump grinder one ton and skidsteer. None of its new and its all paid for. Im lucky for what i have and get low balled by the hacks and the big guys. Ive decided on what i need to make and stick with it 110 to 125 /hr im not going to loose money just to win a job. Ive been in business for myself full time for two yrs. Last yr me and one guy did just over 100000.


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2013)

timberland ts said:


> Im right in the middle. I have a bucket chipper stump grinder one ton and skidsteer. None of its new and its all paid for. Im lucky for what i have and get low balled by the hacks and the big guys. Ive decided on what i need to make and stick with it 110 to 125 /hr im not going to loose money just to win a job. Ive been in business for myself full time for two yrs. Last yr me and one guy did just over 100000.



Middle ground is a good value to customer especially if you educate yourself!


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## pro94lt (Apr 3, 2013)

Ok the big boys charge say 700-1100 to do a removal, you charge 400 in a older truck and 1 helper with minimal overhead, how would you feel if you seen a guy start doing those jobs for say 150 and used mules and cross cut saws? It's basically the same scenario...


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## rms61moparman (Apr 3, 2013)

pro94lt said:


> Ok the big boys charge say 700-1100 to do a removal, you charge 400 in a older truck and 1 helper with minimal overhead, how would you feel if you seen a guy start doing those jobs for say 150 and used mules and cross cut saws? It's basically the same scenario...





I'd finish my job and go watch him!
I love to watch people work mules!!!


Mike


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2013)

rms61moparman said:


> I'd finish my job and go watch him!
> I love to watch people work mules!!!
> 
> 
> Mike



What if you bid a job then was called over by the neighbor guy that referred you to see 3 illegals doing the work with ski ropes for limbs and barefoot with machetes no rope saddle ?


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## woodchuck357 (Apr 3, 2013)

*Reminds me of a job several years ago*



pro94lt said:


> Ok the big boys charge say 700-1100 to do a removal, you charge 400 in a older truck and 1 helper with minimal overhead, how would you feel if you seen a guy start doing those jobs for say 150 and used mules and cross cut saws? It's basically the same scenario...



Huge soft maple, in close quarters, we wound up welding two crosscuts end to end to finish the felling cut!


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## rms61moparman (Apr 3, 2013)

ropensaddle said:


> What if you bid a job then was called over by the neighbor guy that referred you to see 3 illegals doing the work with ski ropes for limbs and barefoot with machetes no rope saddle ?






I'd take a few pictures to sell the insurance company that is about to have a big claim, and call my Masonic brother that is a funeral director.

I understand your frustration Rope, but guys like that are the best advertisement you can get!!!
They are cheap for a reason, and they know the value of their work better than anyone.


Mike


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 3, 2013)

Can't believe you guys are still gabbing on this!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Can't believe you guys are still gabbing on this!
> Jeff



Oh go have a beautiful day


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## RDAA (Apr 4, 2013)

Around here we have a company with a five man crew that is ISA certified and does very nice work. They are the highest priced out of the three companies around. The second guy is a one man show most of the time and sometimes has one guy working for him. Hes a tree topping flush cutting maniac that lions tails every tree he touches, uses no lowering devices for anything. He ever so slightly undercuts the first service. Most people #### their pants when they get estimates from these guys. Im a bit lower than both but not crazy cut throat. I do pretty well I grossed about a hundred grand last year and Im only part time. I dont think i am cut throat but reasonable. I can offer just as good of services as the first with a bit lower price I can understand why the first service has to charge what they do but that second one man show hacker is getting rich quick! But everyone around here thinks topping and taking a ton of foliage off the tree is awesome! Im just trying to do things right and make a fair living. I am very busy and thankfull for all of the very usefull information on this site!


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