# insurance and other ignorant questions



## frashdog (Apr 25, 2006)

Ignorant in a nice uneducated way of course. 1st post for me , but been reading a bit.

I'm starting to get more jobs than expected and would like to do it right.

Here's a little background. Me I've been around tree's, chippers and chainsaws for over 15yrs. Been rock climbing for about 10 years. 5yrs ago family bought 90 acres I moved onto and have been "playing" logger since. Two years ago I meet a guy, good buddy now who had been working as a professional tree climber for big tree services in various states for about 7 years. We both are full timers at "other jobs" but started doing side tree work for friends and then there friends and so on. 

Last year we made a partnership and got 1-2 mill liability with landscaping insurance. Now it cost us about $900/yr and no one around here had a clue about tree climbing insurance. We were not supposed to prune over 35feet or stump a tree. It worked fine because we communicated to the customer if what they wanted was out of our insurance coverage. Most really only wanted the insurance if we were near/over their house pruning. I turned down a few jobs due to the risk being to much for my taste. Like climbing dead trees over roofs! 

Now we did jobs mostly without a chipper, a few times the jobs were so big I forced my partner to rent a chipper. I HATE hauling brush in my truck!
So I'm going to get a chipper, can use one on my property too.

Here's the questions:
1) Where do I get insurance for general liability for tree work, my truck and chipper ? Names please, the insurance "brokers" up here are not very crafty.
2) Does anyone see any pros/cons being in a partnership? When it comes to insurance and taxes? My partner does not want to pay taxes, I want to do everthing (mostly) legit. I think it will be easier to get coverage for climbing due to his past experience, right.
3) Do most charge (tell/show) the customer by the hour or job.
4) What is a good hourly rate to walk away with in your pocket after all expenses. Any difference based on simple climbing/pruning versus technical climbing/rigging?

Now we both have our own health insurance from our full time jobs, and we both do not plan on doing this full time. I work nights and he is a teacher, summer's free. I really was not planning on doing much tree work this year, but already so many people have started to request our services, I just can't say no. 

Any and all help, in the form of answers and general advice is greatly apreciated.
Thanks
Steve


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## Dadatwins (Apr 25, 2006)

frashdog said:


> Here's the questions:
> 1) Where do I get insurance for general liability for tree work, my truck and chipper ? Names please, the insurance "brokers" up here are not very crafty.
> 2) Does anyone see any pros/cons being in a partnership? When it comes to insurance and taxes? My partner does not want to pay taxes, I want to do everthing (mostly) legit. I think it will be easier to get coverage for climbing due to his past experience, right.
> 3) Do most charge (tell/show) the customer by the hour or job.
> 4) What is a good hourly rate to walk away with in your pocket after all expenses. Any difference based on simple climbing/pruning versus technical climbing/rigging?



Welcome to site,I am jealous of your area, I spent many summers partying in Lake George region as a teen and miss the parts that I remember 
As for questions
*Insurance* - A must have, check the Internet and make some phone calls, contact some local tree companies and ask them what company they use. Prices will be all over the scale, shop around. As for better rate due to your partners experience most underwriters go by company years in biz. Ask your current insurer to shop rate for treework, tell him you thinking of adding to your current biz, so ther is no commitment. 
*Partnerships*- Not a fan, most start out great and end badly. Once the biz starts making money splitting it up becomes a problem, who paid for that last saw chain, you broke the rake, you buy it out of your end of the job and on and on.  Hate to recomend lawyers, but a partnership agreement is a 'must have' with a lot of details. 
*Taxes *- file and pay'em, get a business license and be legit. The fines are not worth it if you get caught. Learn how to do your taxes or get a creative accountant. In business there are a ton of deductions, gas, insurance, tools, equipment, ect. Everyone in this biz would be lying if they said they have never taken a cash job, but be smart, you can't be asking for $1000 cash payments all the time without someone raising a red flag.
*Pricing*This depends on the market, underpricing has become a major pain in the biz, with many uninsurered hacks just out to get the job to pay for gas and beer. Do quality work, treat the customer like gold, ask them if they were happy and to refer you to ther friends. As for pricing trimming vs removals and tech jobs, the harder & trickier the work the higher the price in 
my opinion. A simple cut and flop in the woods would always be cheaper than a time consuming over the house removal or prune. 

Good luck in your business


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## frashdog (Apr 25, 2006)

> Welcome to site,I am jealous of your area, I spent many summers partying in Lake George region as a teen and miss the parts that I remember



Thanks, yes I do love it up here.


> PricingThis depends on the market, underpricing has become a major pain in the biz, with many uninsurered hacks just out to get the job to pay for gas and beer.


 I hear you on that, we were thinking a good slogan would be, "besides we're insured, we're sober and have most of our teeth!"JK

I am lucky with my partner in that even through all the disagreements I can count on him the communicate very effectively. The whole money issue, which is yes usually the downfall of people, is not so high a priority between us due to our "other" full time jobs. Tree work is a fun experience for us that happens to pay well. And as much as we disagree on "things", almost for fun sometimes, we always agree that we love tree work. 

Thanks for the response
Steve


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 25, 2006)

If you want to be ligit about the business and taxes thing, set your self up as an LLC and hire him out as a subcontractor. Send him a 1099 at the end of the year and let him worry about the taxes. OR, since you both have other full time jobs, you could also change your deduction claims (on w-4) to zero. Depending on just how much work you really do, this may be enough to cover you. Try it this year and see. Just make sure to put enough $ back incase its NOT.


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## frashdog (Apr 26, 2006)

more good info to think about
thanks


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## toscottm (Jan 11, 2007)

*Arborist Insurance: Supplier Details*



frashdog said:


> Here's the questions:
> 1) Where do I get insurance for general liability for tree work, my truck and chipper ? Names please, the insurance "brokers" up here are not very crafty.



Steve (frashdog),

Sorry about 'reviving' an old post, however as the anniversary of this post is approaching I assume that your annual insurance review is approaching also.

In the U.S., ArboxMAX (www.arbormax.com) and TreePro (www.nipgroup.com) specialize in insurance for the tree service industry. In Canada, my own service TREESURE (www.treesure.ca) can help.

Best Wishes!

Scott


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## frashdog (Jan 12, 2007)

Great, I was just thinking the last few days about getting better/different insurance. Going to look more into them now.

My insurance broker did come across TreePro, was something like $4,000/year. Coverage was what I wanted, but was more taylored to a full tilt boogie tree service. Lots of equipment, high income. Hoping to find something like half that amount. I pay around $1k for my gen liability and $1k for my truck in same policy. 

On my current policy, I "can" do tree work, just not supposed to do "only" tree work and the specifics are vague. I'm sure they will not be vague if I have a claim. Comes down to word games with the insurance agents I have spoken to. Got a bunch of trees in the way of a "landscaping" job is ok, as opposed to I'm "lot clearing" or worse "logging." I do know of a "landscaping" company that has a skidder, 22" chipper, excavators, and log/dump trucks.


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