# Beautiful Topping



## mikewhite85 (Dec 24, 2009)

You wouldn't believe the topping that goes on in SoCal. I moved from CT about 18 months ago was pretty shocked at what I saw. There is so much of it that your average customer thinks it is proper pruning practice. Most of the trees I remove are a result of this butchering. Tree companies even advertise it. The pictures on this craigslist ad are UNBELIEVABLE!


http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/1521094052.html


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## EdenT (Dec 24, 2009)

Not pretty. Glad to know he has had a license since 1997. Wonder if it's a dog license or drivers license. If his driving is anything like his tree cutting it must be a dog license.:jawdrop:


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## dingeryote (Dec 24, 2009)

CRAP!!!!!:jawdrop:

Why don't they advertise tree ringing and Kitten drowning as a service on the side?

I ain't a tree hugger by any means and hate the envirowhackos, but out there they have major pull. See if ya can talk to a couple of them to get the word out that folks are paying to make trees suffer like flies with thier wings pulled off.

If folks are gonna do that to a tree, why don't they just cut the thing down?
I don't get it?



Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## RacerX (Dec 24, 2009)

Although pollarding is considered to be so wrong, why do we still see professionals doing it? Why do guys like this one in the ad think that this is OK?


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## EdenT (Dec 24, 2009)

That's not pollarding. Pollarding in itself is not wrong. It's when clowns like this one do topping and then call it pollarding that it gets its bad name. Sadly almost all of the so called 'pollards' you see are in fact toppings. 

In the guys defense, at least his advertising can't be called misleading! :jester:


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## canopyboy (Dec 24, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> Why don't they advertise tree ringing and Kitten drowning as a service on the side?



Wow. 

You know, I've actually been driving past a recent topping on my way to work that doesn't look half bad. It still bothers me, but after seeing these pictures it looks like a work of a Renaissance master. Seriously, both of those trees looked so much better before. And the first tree's after/during picture? Blurry? Guy with loppers? No definable shape left to the tree. Kind of looks like the tree just withstood a hurricane.

Anybody want to call his number and try to educate him?

Wow.


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## canopyboy (Dec 24, 2009)

I never understood pollarding, so I started to look it up. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it really started in old Europe where they were harvesting the branches off the tree as a crop. They could keep harvesting closer to the ground, and the removal of branches encouraged new epicormic growth or something, which was reharvested a few years later. Much higher yield than cutting down the whole tree and waiting for it to regrow from seed. It wasn't for looks or the health of the tree. Somehow it became associated with formal landscaping on old estates, maybe because proper pollarding needs to be maintained every couple of years so only the rich could afford it?

I doubt it is used that way much any more, so what is the purpose of pollarding in modern times? People just want short, bushy trees with a big tumor at the top of the trunk? And then of course like EdenT says, pollarding becomes confused with topping which has absolutely no redeeming values.


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## treemandan (Dec 24, 2009)

Actually as topping goes that wasn't a bad example.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

The fourth pic, the tree that looks an ash, it almost appears as though he's making an attempt at a remedial trim of an old hatrack...but theres def. some hackery goin on there.


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## outofmytree (Dec 24, 2009)

Pollarding *MAY* have a place in an arborists bag of tricks but it would be a rare job that ticks all the boxes. 

1. You need the right tree species. Preferably deciduous, good compartmentalizer, rapid grower.

2. You must start EARLY. Pollarding a mature tree is topping spelled incorrectly.

3. You must return EVERY year and prune ALL growth above the pollard heads.

4. You must be able to stand the site of horribly mutilated trees.

Number 4 is not a joke. Pollarded trees look like the elephant man. Grotesque and worthy of pity. 

I am not a tree hugger either. I just hate to see bad work passed off as "professional". 

By the way, JPS should edit that clowns listing and correct all his spelling and grammar mistakes.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

mikewhite85 said:


> You wouldn't believe the topping that goes on in SoCal. I moved from CT about 18 months ago was pretty shocked at what I saw. There is so much of it that your average customer thinks it is proper pruning practice. Most of the trees I remove are a result of this butchering. Tree companies even advertise it. The pictures on this craigslist ad are UNBELIEVABLE!
> 
> 
> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/1521094052.html



Hey mike: what part of CT you from??

I have never seen much topping/hatracking in my area, litchfield county...until recently. theres this one guy running around doing roundovers (sort of like a light hatrack/shaping) and straight up racking (he cut these two sugar maples in half like a laser went across em). It really stands out where he's been thats for sure. The strange thing is he's actually licensed! I guess I have had people ask me for things like this over the years and declined, but it almost seems like he's gotta be selling this "service". I have to think to myself: now here's a real hacker, he goes about this knowing fully that he's destroying these peoples tree. hmmm...

So I look at the ctpa website and I see where you can download the form to turn in unlicensed guys doing arborist work...but what about this :censored: head?? They should really have a form that you can download called something like "turn in a licensed hacker form". Makes me wonder if its even worth going for the license. Its been my expierience that most of the guys that finally got licensed just went about doing whatever hackery they were doing before anyway......

Rant over, sorry guys. :angry2:


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## ckliff (Dec 24, 2009)

So sad to see that going on in California. I was under the impression y'all out there on the left coast were tree huggin' lib lovers. Thought they'd know better.


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## mikewhite85 (Dec 24, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> Hey mike: what part of CT you from??
> 
> I have never seen much topping/hatracking in my area, litchfield county...until recently. theres this one guy running around doing roundovers (sort of like a light hatrack/shaping) and straight up racking (he cut these two sugar maples in half like a laser went across em). It really stands out where he's been thats for sure. The strange thing is he's actually licensed! I guess I have had people ask me for things like this over the years and declined, but it almost seems like he's gotta be selling this "service". I have to think to myself: now here's a real hacker, he goes about this knowing fully that he's destroying these peoples tree. hmmm...
> 
> ...



I grew up in Brookfield and yeah, I too, rarely saw topping. Probably all the examples I noticed were from homeowners on immature trees. I wonder what that guys' reasoning is for mutilating trees despite his education. Maybe his license is illegitimate? 



RacerX said:


> Although pollarding is considered to be so wrong, why do we still see professionals doing it? Why do guys like this one in the ad think that this is OK?




Out here it is very common and even many licensed tree services advertise topping. I see it practiced on mature trees in even large commercial shopping centers like Walmart and many apartment buildings. My conjectured reasons for this are as follows:

1. The vast majority of tree trimmers in Los Angeles appear to be first generation immigrants from Mexico and Central America who are trying to support their families. Most of these guys have landscaping routes (though they are called "gardeners" around here, not landscapers) and do tree work for their clients. They have little or no education in the field and, because topping is so common, assume that it is proper pruning etiquette. Most of them drive beat up pick-ups with plywood sides and are extremely cheap because they have so little overhead. It is very difficult to compete with them. In some sense, I don't blame them because they are trying to support their families, whom in some cases, they haven't seen in years. My heart goes out to these guys. 

2. Because these gardeners do so much topping, your average clients assume that topping is acceptable and even a recommended practice. Many of my clients request topping and even after I educate them on how horrible it is for trees they still want it done. Usually I recommend removal after a tree has been severely topped (and many are SEVERELY topped. It's unbelievable the things people pay for. There is a Chinese elm near my house that has stubs that are probably 10 inches in diameter. The person who performed this mutilation left no leaves on the tree- but did leave spur marks!). However, most homeowners don't want to pay for removal so they hire someone else to top it again- and end up paying more in the long run. 

3. In CA, there are 2 classes of contractors licenses, the C class and the D class. The C class license (such as plumbing, electrical, excavation, etc) requires two exams: a law exam (detailing how to run a business, proper tax etiquette, and contractors laws) and an exam that tests knowledge on ones trade. The "Tree Service License," however, is a D class license and ONLY tests on law, not trade. This is because the state board assumes that because tree work is so specific, contractors should be able to learn their trade without a trade exam. As a result of this I see even large licensed companies with beautiful trucks and chippers mutilating trees everywhere. Believe it or not I even saw guys from Davey topping liquidambars and jacarandas under utility lines. Leaving them the benefit of the doubt, however, this may have been the cities' directive rather than Davey's recommendation. 

Ultimately what SoCal needs is education, not just for those working in the trade but for homeowners as well.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

Its a legitimate license mike, I looked it up.

Seems as though he's using the license to create a market for hatracking is all I can think. 

Oh well, the repo man just called wondering if I know where some of another one of these hackers equipment is, seems they already towed off some of it. Score 1 for the treegods! Whoohoo! 

But alas...another one pops up to take his place. This one is on craiglist right now proclaiming himself to be "Connecticut's leading tree service" - with no license! He cant even sell firewood without :censored:ing off his customers! 

I love treework, but it gets old sometimes, it really does.


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## deevo (Dec 24, 2009)

mikewhite85 said:


> You wouldn't believe the topping that goes on in SoCal. I moved from CT about 18 months ago was pretty shocked at what I saw. There is so much of it that your average customer thinks it is proper pruning practice. Most of the trees I remove are a result of this butchering. Tree companies even advertise it. The pictures on this craigslist ad are UNBELIEVABLE!
> 
> 
> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/1521094052.html



That's just ugly! Nice Ball cap on the dude! At least he's tied in to the tree, at first I thought it was the ladder brigade!:greenchainsaw:


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## treemandan (Dec 24, 2009)

deevo said:


> That's just ugly! Nice Ball cap on the dude! At least he's tied in to the tree, at first I thought it was the ladder brigade!:greenchainsaw:



Oh yeah that.


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## ozzy42 (Dec 24, 2009)

In the guys defence, he didn't remove the canopy from the tree,only the weakly attached new sucker growth.

The tree was ruined before he started.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> In the guys defence, he didn't remove the canopy from the tree,only the weakly attached new sucker growth.
> 
> The tree was ruined before he started.



Exactly! He was definitely trying to do something there cuz it sure would've been alot easier to just rack it back down again.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 24, 2009)

I have some pollard pics from trips to Europe, Ill dig them up.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 24, 2009)

Here is what pollarding is suposed to look like! 
southern France, I couldn't locate the ones in Amsterdam,they may be pre digital camera. 

One is the results and the other two are how you get there.


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## Bermie (Dec 26, 2009)

Welcome to my world...

Topping is a common part of the landscapers vocabulary...and as long as they have a ladder and a saw they think they are capable of doing anything.
If someone asks me to 'top' their trees, just say sure thing and proceed to do a staged reduction...I have almost stopped arguing, because I can't seem to single handedly remove the word 'topping' from common use, so instead I try to match a different result with a common phrase, and my result is far superior than the landscapers, and some people seem to realize it.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 26, 2009)

I guess I just see things differently because I think this guy has done a good job of RESTORATIVE pruning. He's taken a tree that had been previously topped (3rd from last picture) and laden with water sprouts. He's reduced the water sprouts back to the originial topping cut leaving enough to utilize the growth hormones and prevent a mass of new watersprouts. He's done proper drop crotch reduction on the remaining watersprouts, cutting back to side twigs. 

As for the blurry picture, I can't tell if it is the after picture from the lemon (orange?) tree above but I don't think so. I wouldn't use it for an advertising picture, because you can't see the before shot. It's tough to critique an after shot, when you haven't see the before shot. It's pretty blurry, but I only see 2 possible topping cuts. The rest were drop crotch reductions.

To the poster who commented about topping under utility lines, I would bet money that it wasn't a true topping (cutting to set height internodally), but some form of reduction. You have to provide clearance to the utility lines, following the standards of the contract.


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## EdenT (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't think that pruning is restorative. If he was trying to develop new leaders why leave all those small branches that go nowhere at the bottom.

My guess is that the HO wanted the power line cleared and a reduction to reduce the amount of leaves they need to clean up. This actually looks like it would have been a good candidate for pollarding. Reduce everything back to those original topping cuts in late winter every year and let spring do it's thing and voila you have a shady deck come summer.

I think the blurry picture is the citrus tree in the first picture but taken from a different angle. The roof that was on the right in the first picture is now the one on the left and vice versa. Still looks like someone picked the fruit using hand grenades.


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## treevet (Dec 26, 2009)

Pruning such as this in the initial photos is called pollarding and is admired unconditionally on the Jerry Beranek worship forum (TH).


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 26, 2009)

This is topping





This is pollarding





Oh and that Citrus is A dead trunk standing if it don't starve or get an infection
it will surely sunburn and succumb to its slow death


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## EdenT (Dec 26, 2009)

Heres a jolly good show at pollarding b4 & after by the Brits.

Before





After




As you can see it would take quite a bit of time and hard work to develop these massive pollard heads and that of course equals $BIG. Not to many HO's in the new world prepared to spend that kind of money.

Jolly good show and God save the Queen.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 26, 2009)

Beautiful and indeed a commitment 
unfortunately the best example here is Crepe Murder 

as my other uploads above show, the training comes very early, you can't really do it right after its grown out natural.


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## EdenT (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes. Unfortunately even people who should know better, are still telling people that hatracking/hacking/topping is pollarding and that gives pollarding a bad name. Check out this - once again Brittish link -

http://www.ancient-yew.org/deathbypollarding.shtml

It probably should be called 'death by church volunteer group', because as I understand it the UK has strict training and regulations for Aboriculture. I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 27, 2009)

oh who ####ing cares..........if they want, it they get it.....plain and simple...move on , mind you own business, get over it.....end of story...

I hope this thread gets locked because this has been beat to death so many times here....OP....search "topping" next time before you start a thread like this..


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> *oh who ####ing cares*..........if they want, it they get it.....plain and simple...move on , mind you own business, get over it.....end of story...
> 
> I hope this thread gets locked because this has been beat to death so many times here....OP....search "topping" next time before you start a thread like this..



I care and it appears, so do many others. Move on and mind your own business? Take your own advice. You don't have to read this thread.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 27, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> I care and it appears, so do many others. Move on and mind your own business? Take your own advice. *You don't have to read this thread.*


i didn't read it except for the title & your reply, I couldn't tell a thing about the O/P.......the title was enough........


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## Bermie (Dec 27, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> oh who ####ing cares..........if they want, it they get it.....plain and simple...move on , mind you own business, get over it.....end of story...
> 
> I hope this thread gets locked because this has been beat to death so many times here....OP....search "topping" next time before you start a thread like this..



Buzz off if you don't like it...some of us like to revisit the topping debate if someone relatively new brings it up again...if you don't, go away and stay peaceful somewhere else...lots of love


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## treesquirrel (Dec 27, 2009)

RacerX said:


> Although pollarding is considered to be so wrong, why do we still see professionals doing it? Why do guys like this one in the ad think that this is OK?



Because there are people stupid enough to pay them to do it.

Sickening.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 27, 2009)

treesquirrel said:


> Because there are people stupid enough to pay them to do it.
> 
> Sickening.


I can think of a whole boat load of things going on in this world that are "sickening" but people just turn the other cheek because they don't want to get involved....there's worst things to worry about than someone topping a tree.....


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## BlueRidgeMark (Dec 27, 2009)

ckliff said:


> So sad to see that going on in California. I was under the impression y'all out there on the left coast were tree huggin' lib lovers. Thought they'd know better.





They don't. That's quite common out there. 

Out in the desert towns there are a lot of fruitless mulberries that get hacked back to a stub every few years. I mean right back to a stump. They resprout, and are allowed to grow for a few years, or maybe only one year. (They can grow 8-10 foot suckers just a couple of years.)

Some people have it done every fall before the leaves drop, to avoid cleaning up leaves. It's much easier than raking leaves when you have a gravel "lawn". 


Check this out from the town of Davis (near 'Frisco):




> There are two schools of thought on pruning a fruitless mulberry; Ball it by taking a chainsaw and cutting off everything that doesn't look like a trunk, or prune the tree, requiring either skill and an esthetic sense or the hiring of a professional. Balling a mulberry will result in a distinctive shape where the trunk ends in a blossom of suckers. The sucker branches are smoother and faster growing, but will require that the tree be balled again. Pruning on the other hand can result in a healthier tree with a larger canopy.





Here's a typical example:


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I can think of a whole boat load of things going on in this world that are "sickening" but people just turn the other cheek because they don't want to get involved....there's worst things to worry about than someone topping a tree.....





> Buzz off if you don't like it...some of us like to revisit the topping debate if someone relatively new brings it up again...if you don't, go away and stay peaceful somewhere else





> All that is needed for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing-Edmund Burke



The name of this forum is *ARBORIST*site.


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## Bermie (Dec 28, 2009)

RacerX said:


> Although pollarding is considered to be so wrong, why do we still see professionals doing it? Why do guys like this one in the ad think that this is OK?



Pollarding is NOT wrong...its just a very specialized older technique that is generally misunderstood in this more modern age. It has a very limited application, is best applied to only a few species and must be carried out correctly from the very start and managed throughout the life of the tree. It is labour intensive.

Topping is indiscriminate cutting with the ONLY objective of lowering the height of a tree, no regard to nodes, branch bark unions, collars, shape, size, growth patterns, etc....


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 28, 2009)

Bermie said:


> Pollarding is NOT wrong...its just a very specialized older technique that is generally misunderstood in this more modern age. It has a very limited application, is best applied to only a few species and must be carried out correctly from the very start and managed throughout the life of the tree. It is labour intensive.
> 
> Topping is indiscriminate cutting with the ONLY objective of lowering the height of a tree, no regard to nodes, branch bark unions, collars, shape, size, growth patterns, etc....



very well said It is nice when someone can contribute to a little Education and resolution of the problem instead of getting there panties in a wad about something they are obviously Ignorant of. thanx for the further examples


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## pdqdl (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't know what you guys are all grousing about. 

Around here, we spike them real good while we are topping them. Then the "white eyes" aren't so prominent, and you can tell that it was done by a REAL tree climber instead of some amateur with a ladder!

These guys at least forgot to bring their spikes. Topping done right would have stripped that tree back to the original knobs, too. 

[I'm thinking that snipping those little branches off at the height that was done is so that they will need to be topped again in just a couple of years.]


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## Rftreeman (Dec 28, 2009)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> very well said It is nice when someone can contribute to a little Education and resolution of the problem instead of getting there panties in a wad about something they are obviously Ignorant of. thanx for the further examples


 I don't wear panties nor am I ignorant to the subject, I never said it was right or wrong, my problem is the countless threads about it where the O/P makes one or two post and then hauls butt....


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## Bermie (Dec 28, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I don't wear panties nor am I ignorant to the subject, I never said it was right or wrong, my problem is the countless threads about it where the O/P makes one or two post and then hauls butt....



But it's Ok if people like me are happy to keep contributing....sure the OP has hauled, but in the last half dozen or so topping threads I've seen there is ALWAYS a new crop of members, so maybe they get to see it for the first time, don't know how to use the search function...whatever, don't stress yourself buddy!:biggrinbounce2:


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## Bermie (Dec 28, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> I don't know what you guys are all grousing about.
> 
> Around here, we spike them real good while we are topping them. Then the "white eyes" aren't so prominent, and you can tell that it was done by a REAL tree climber instead of some amateur with a ladder!
> 
> ...



Ha, love it...If you're gonna top it ya might as well spike it too, and use a ladder and your saw in one hand for good measure, with your ball cap on backwards!:biggrinbounce2:


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## southernoutdoor (Dec 28, 2009)

I think I look sexy with my hat on backwards!!!:greenchainsaw:


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 29, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> my problem is the countless threads about it where the O/P makes one or two post and then hauls butt....


There is feature in versions of this software That show a list of similar topics, below, 
I would like to see the ones like this get merged, butI know its a daunting task for moderators. everyone is a little premadonna on starting fresh threads, and I had been scolded at other places for grave digging as well. 
What we have to remember is our post here are archived for the purpose of reference. and there is always fresh content and noone really ever gets the last word on any subject. 


Bermie said:


> But it's Ok if people like me are happy to keep contributing....sure the OP has hauled, but in last half dozen or so topping threads I've seen there is ALWAYS a new crop of members, so maybe they get to see it for the first time, don't know how to use the search function...whatever, don't stress yourself buddy!:biggrinbounce2:



I liked having the opportunity to share pictures I took with others that might appreciate them in fact lets have another look


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## treevet (Dec 29, 2009)

I have planted a weeping willow I had left over from our fall festival UFB booth for the express purpose of developing a pollard. I think it will be a quick study with its fast growth habit.


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## outofmytree (Dec 29, 2009)

> treevet: I have planted a weeping willow I had left over from our fall festival UFB booth for the express purpose of developing a pollard. I think it will be a quick study with its fast growth habit.



If you have the patience it would be very useful to take photographs say monthly over a period of some years and see the pollard heads develop. Nice to do some hands on research albeit on a small scale.

Like Bermie said, it is choose the right species, start early and maintain regularly. Is it _Salix babylonica _or a sub species?


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Dec 29, 2009)

I have a good friend that is training a Natchez crepe myrtle. He is training using the technique in the photo above. I have helped him with a few decisions, and have to regularly remind him, branches must produce there girth from the food their own leaves produce. Starches and sugars never flow toward the tip of the branch,no matter how you twist of Graft them. 
Producing an attractive candelabra structure starts at a young age. It requires several years of conforming to a planned structure as well as adapting to natures whims and growth conditions. 

It is possible to reduce a young tree to a pollard but only with the luck of a wide structure and special techniques to disguise large diameter cuts. 

I don't consider it a pollard if the main branches are perpendicular to the ground by 45 degrees or more.


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## Ellistrees (Dec 30, 2009)

*Most pro trimmers in Indiana do topping*

Almost all trimmers around here top trees hard if not harder than those pictures.
I do not, but serveral companies around here advertise topping to the point most H/O think that is the only professional way to trim. 
I remove so many trees that have rotted from hard topping, bothers me to see it done.
You wouldn't beleive how many trees around here have been topped hard.
So much, that I get some H/O afraid to have their trees touched. I don't blame H/O either. H/o should be able to trust a paid professional but so many professionals have really given all of us a bad rep.
I've tried to conviece some of the other trimmers how topping kills the trees and they really get mad and tell me how much longer they been trimming. 
Sadly it was done to the trees at my place, just before I bought the place. 
One of these trees is actually two different trees type of trees grown together. But now it has so much rot, I'll just have to remove it before it falls on the house.


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## Bermie (Dec 30, 2009)

Ellistrees said:


> Almost all trimmers around here top trees hard if not harder than those pictures.
> I do not, but serveral companies around here advertise topping to the point most H/O think that is the only professional way to trim.
> I remove so many trees that have rotted from hard topping, bothers me to see it done.
> You wouldn't beleive how many trees around here have been topped hard.
> ...



Oh such a familiar story...I know how you feel!
Welcome to AS...put on your hardhat and join the fun, might have to lower your earmuffs if some of the gang start getting unruly..., but its all good


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## prorover (Jan 5, 2010)

*southern california*



mikewhite85 said:


> You wouldn't believe the topping that goes on in SoCal. I moved from CT about 18 months ago was pretty shocked at what I saw. There is so much of it that your average customer thinks it is proper pruning practice. Most of the trees I remove are a result of this butchering. Tree companies even advertise it. The pictures on this craigslist ad are UNBELIEVABLE!
> 
> 
> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/1521094052.html



i worked in south cal 3 winters ago....topping is everywhere...even in the nice neighborhoods...also there is this weird practice called "lacing". i never heard of it anywhere except southern california....i know what layering is...but the "lacing" was lion tailing...most people in califorinia just can't seem to get it.


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## gumtree (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is the new craiglist posting. Your old link doesn't work any more.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/1552349593.html


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## VA-Sawyer (Jan 15, 2010)

Not only is his treework sad, but he has the rebar laying on the ground instead of supported a few inches above, in the driveway pictures. Waste of rebar.


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## randyg (Jan 15, 2010)

VA-Sawyer said:


> Not only is his treework sad, but he has the rebar laying on the ground instead of supported a few inches above, in the driveway pictures. Waste of rebar.



Either rebar supports not yet installed, or in most cases the preferred method is to pull up rebar to center of slab as you pour. Easier to walk on/wheel barrow over etc. Hardscape looks nice, to bad people WANT THAT DONE to their trees.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 21, 2010)

Topping is huge in Iowa, most services here are hacks, literally, there are a couple of services here that have Arborist, the rest are ex employees who were fired and started their own, with no regulation in my area, anybody can get a License! I'm trying to change it. They put Topping in their ads!, They make good money too! 1 hack just built a $500,000.00 shop, I cant do that! Sometimes taking the high road is very frustrating when I drive by and see the place!
But still I stay the coarse and preach our gospel to the public. Topping is bad. 
I worked for a company in San Diego, they were big into 
"lacing", coming from Iowa I never heard of it, they taught me how to do it, "take 2/3rd of the tree, starting from tips and work backwards!"
I quite after about 2 weeks, went to work for Gothic. 
Which, Ironically held this guys maintenance contract. I was put in charge of the account! Too bad for him, we found a better guy, who prunes tree's, not lace them!


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## EdenT (Jan 22, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> They put Topping in their ads!, They make good money too! 1 hack just built a $500,000.00 shop, I cant do that! Sometimes taking the high road is very frustrating when I drive by and see the place!



Just remember sgreanbeans, when one of the epi growths on one of his topped tree's fails and hurts someone, he's going to sell his new shop and everything else he owns just to pay the damages. Stick to your guns, do quality work, preach good practices to anyone who will listen and word will eventually get around.


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## pdqdl (Jan 22, 2010)

EdenT said:


> ... when one of the epi growths on one of his topped tree's fails and hurts someone, he's going to sell his new shop and everything else he owns just to pay the damages....



That'll never happen. It might fall and hurt someone, but not within any timeframe that would cause the tree trimmer to be liable. Especially for doing what would be "an industry standard practice".

"What's that?", you say; "Not and industry practice!" ? 

Drive around the midwest USA, and look around. Granted, there are fewer now than some years back.


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## Toddppm (Jan 22, 2010)

prorover said:


> i worked in south cal 3 winters ago....topping is everywhere...even in the nice neighborhoods...also there is this weird practice called "lacing". i never heard of it anywhere except southern california....i know what layering is...but the "lacing" was lion tailing...most people in califorinia just can't seem to get it.




Thanks for that, I've seen lacing listed as a service in Fl. and Ca. and couldn't figure out what they were talking about. Even asked here 1 time I think and nobody knew. But why lacing?


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## EdenT (Jan 22, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Granted, there are fewer now than some years back.



Then we are moving in the right direction!


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Jan 23, 2010)

randyg said:


> to bad people WANT THAT DONE to their trees.



it's possible to say NO to work you find below your standards.


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## Jon22 (Jan 23, 2010)

I usually never say know. Custumers ask for topping from time to time but 99% of the time when you take a minuete out of there day to let them know a few good reasons that topping can basicly ruin a tree, they get real exited at the sound of a crown reduction. H/Os usualy see the light once you show it to them. In an older part of town around here topping is almost an acceptible practice. If a H/O in the area wants a tree topped I will show them one or refer them to one that has had this done to it many years ago. The results are usualy self explanitory, even to an uneducated H/O. If they insist on a nice topping job, always refuse.


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## fishercat (Jan 23, 2010)

*My GF parents have a white pine topped every few years.*

Two LICENSED ARBORISTS do it for them and charge big money.So much for that regulation theory in the other thread.

it looks absolutely horrid! i have tried to talk them out of doing it and it goes in one ear and out the other.


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## outofmytree (Jan 23, 2010)

Jon22 said:


> I usually never say know. Custumers ask for topping from time to time but 99% of the time when you take a minuete out of there day to let them know a few good reasons that topping can basicly ruin a tree, they get real exited at the sound of a crown reduction. H/Os usualy see the light once you show it to them. In an older part of town around here topping is almost an acceptible practice. If a H/O in the area wants a tree topped I will show them one or refer them to one that has had this done to it many years ago. The results are usualy self explanitory, even to an uneducated H/O. If they insist on a nice topping job, always refuse.



Congrats on taking the moral high ground at the potential loss of immediate gain. In the long term you, the client and the tree are winning.


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## outofmytree (Jan 23, 2010)

fishercat said:


> Two LICENSED ARBORISTS do it for them and charge big money.So much for that regulation theory in the other thread.
> 
> it looks absolutely horrid! i have tried to talk them out of doing it and it goes in one ear and out the other.



The key here FC is that *YOU* know there is a better way. We will never be able to convince all the people that topping is wrong but if we can win over most of em that's a good start. After all there are still people who believe that Neil and Buzz didn't walk on the moon!


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## fishercat (Jan 23, 2010)

*i hear ya.*



outofmytree said:


> The key here FC is that *YOU* know there is a better way. We will never be able to convince all the people that topping is wrong but if we can win over most of em that's a good start. After all there are still people who believe that Neil and Buzz didn't walk on the moon!



he offered to start using me but i told him i will not top trees.no way,no how!

i also do not have a state arborist license so legally i cannot trim or prune.i unlike many who do have one,try to follow the rules or just do what i know in my heart is right.

living in east Tennessee really turned me off on topping.i hated looking at topped trees when i lived there and they are everywhere down there.


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## outofmytree (Jan 23, 2010)

fishercat said:


> he offered to start using me but i told him i will not top trees.no way,no how!
> 
> i also do not have a state arborist license.i unlike many who do have one,try to follow the rules or just do what i know in my heart is right.
> 
> living in east Tennessee really turned me off on topping.i hated looking at topped trees when i lived there and they are everywhere down there.



Careful mate. You are starting to sound like a liberal tree hugging nancy boy. Like me!


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## teamtree (Jan 23, 2010)

You would hate Southern Indiana if you don't like "topped" trees.

We are trying down here but topping is not going away anytime soon. We can convert some but I try to steer customers away from it. 

My dilemna is this......we get many calls to trim trees that were previously topped (say 10 years ago) and now all you have is a short trunk with numerous "knuckles" and then long limbs with very little limb structure until you get to the end. I like to save trees and if possible rehab these trees but sometimes you can't do much with them.

We have tons of Silver Maples in yards around here. Other trees are easier to rehab after a severe topping. 

I am beginning to think that is is better to go ahead and top the tree again and then come back the next year to thin to allow for better branch structure. 

I am sure it is hard to put a picture to this but I just feel like it is impossible to do a crown reduction (on a tree that has been topped previously) in a manner that is within professional standards. We try but many times there is not a lateral limb 1/3 of the size of what you are cutting in these trees of which I speak. 

Well...all I can say is I try to do the right thing but sometimes I feel like it is too hard to accomplish given the situation that I am presented with.


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## treevet (Jan 23, 2010)

teamtree said:


> You would hate Southern Indiana if you don't like "topped" trees.
> 
> We are trying down here but topping is not going away anytime soon. We can convert some but I try to steer customers away from it.
> 
> ...



While you try to wean them off topping try to wean them off Silver maples as well.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 23, 2010)

Commonly called crown restoration, wait 2-3 years to thin the sprout branches out.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 23, 2010)

fishercat said:


> Two LICENSED ARBORISTS do it for them and charge big money.So much for that regulation theory in the other thread.
> 
> it looks absolutely horrid! i have tried to talk them out of doing it and it goes in one ear and out the other.



Once you have topped a conifer, the branches that assume the leader role have poor attachments to the main stem and susceptible to failure. Retopping back to the original topping cut should be done for safety reasons.


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## treevet (Jan 23, 2010)

fishercat said:


> Two LICENSED ARBORISTS do it for them and charge big money.So much for that regulation theory in the other thread.
> 
> it looks absolutely horrid! i have tried to talk them out of doing it and it goes in one ear and out the other.



In theory with the new "Pledge" you sign as a CA.....it is compulsory that you turn the two (if they were ISA) licensed or certified arborists and their certification becomes in jeopardy or discontinued. In a perfect world that is.

I have not seen this "contract" yet nor has my CA groundman.


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## treevet (Jan 23, 2010)

Like to add something else to this thread. Was watching the news as the aftermath of the earthquake found the cameras panning the front of the White house.

There in the right center of the screen, right in front of the White house is a huge tree completely topped.


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## Rftreeman (Jan 23, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> EdenT said:
> 
> 
> > Just remember sgreanbeans, when one of the epi growths on one of his topped tree's fails and hurts someone, he's going to sell his new shop and everything else he owns just to pay the damages. Stick to your guns, do quality work, preach good practices to anyone who will listen and word will eventually get around.
> ...


Eventually one day it will happen but until it does........I'll be making payments on my new $500,000.00 shop......lol.:rockn:


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## clearance (Jan 23, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Once you have topped a conifer, the branches that assume the leader role have poor attachments to the main stem and susceptible to failure. Retopping back to the original topping cut should be done for safety reasons.



This is true. Re topped or cut down.


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## teamtree (Jan 24, 2010)

I pretty much tell any customer that has a Silver Maple that the tree is a poor selection and will develop many problems no matter how you prune it....unless is has been pruned for structure early in it's life. 

I really hate working with them.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't understand why people hate silver maples??? The idea that they are weak and brake up more then other species is BS, in my experiance it is only those that are butchered that have a lot of problems. 

As for needing a lot of early training, that is any tree. I've been in many hard maples that are junk because there was no early care.


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I don't understand why people hate silver maples??? The idea that they are weak and brake up more then other species is BS, in my experiance it is only those that are butchered that have a lot of problems.



Silver maples are more prone to damage than other trees. They have been banned by the city of Cincinnati just for that reason. If you want more impressive opinions just read any book on high risk trees and they will verify that opinion.

They over grow out of symmetry, have weak wood, get leaves too early and keep them too late so they hold wet early or late snows respectively. Quite often they have not even been topped but rather cut back after they have busted up from insignificant (to other trees) winds or light loads of snow or ice on them.

If there is a "rat" in the animal world then the Silver maple is the rat in the tree world.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> If there is a "rat" in the animal world then the Silver maple is the rat in the tree world.



You could substitute that with box elder, willows, red maple, ailanthus, green ash, river birch, poplars except for the asymmetry...

I've worked with hundreds of silvers that have survived our heavy winds, and taken down quite a few red oaks that lost canopy in a storm or unseasonal snowfall. Ooo they hold onto dead leaves, which collect snow....


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## treeseer (Jan 24, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> You could substitute that with box elder, willows, red maple, ailanthus, green ash, river birch, poplars except for the asymmetry...


And I understand that there are people called arbolistos who can actually prune silver maples to restore and maintain symmetry.

Any of them folks in Cin city?


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

treeseer said:


> And I understand that there are people called arbolistos who can actually prune silver maples to restore and maintain symmetry.
> 
> Any of them folks in Cin city?



I knew this one would bring you out because we have done this dance before.

You would not have to be a arbolister if the damn tree did not break up so much or grow out of symmetry or a more appropriate was planted now would you?

PS. You prune a Silv. maple and it is gonna grow faster than the usual break neck speed.


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Ooo they hold onto dead leaves, which collect snow....



Ooooo I said "hold on to live leaves and get leaves early at a time that wet snows are common then"'''

Evaluation of Hazard Trees by Matheny and Clark, pg 80...."Acer Saccharinum- Branch and scaffold failure due to poor branch attachments and decay often in snow and ice storms: Trunk failure from internal decay (Robbins,Smiley) high rate of failure for old mature individuals.

Dirr's Hardy Trees and Shrubs, pg. 25, Acer saccharinum...."once the most widely planted native maple, fallen into disfavor....Broken limbs, limited ornamental attributes, and a gross feeding root system that buckles sidewalks and clogs drains have inhibited its planting. The fastest growing maple species..it is at the same time the most susceptible to breakage in storms......"

I could go on and on but you both know you are fighting a weak fight at best.


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## pdqdl (Jan 24, 2010)

Why hate the silver maples? I make a good percentage of my living off them.

There are lots of trees worse than silver maples. Rapid growing trees generally are more prone to weaker wood. Sometimes a property owner wants a rapidly growing tree. Silver maple is an excellent choice.

I wouldn't even begin to put silver maple in the same undesirable league as Ailanthus, cottonwood, or some others that are sturdier, but have far worse traits. Thorny honey locust comes to mind...


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Why hate the silver maples? I make a good percentage of my living off them.
> 
> There are lots of trees worse than silver maples. Rapid growing trees generally are more prone to weaker wood. Sometimes a property owner wants a rapidly growing tree. Silver maple is an excellent choice.
> 
> I wouldn't even begin to put silver maple in the same undesirable league as Ailanthus, cottonwood, or some others that are sturdier, but have far worse traits. Thorny honey locust comes to mind...



A property owner should never plant a Silver maple nearby a building or where people frequent. Silver maple is always a poor choice not an excellent choice in this instance.

I would put the Silv. maple in the same (exact) league as Ailanthus, Cottonwood or whatever else you have on your mind. Honey locust....a great tree, in the thornless cultivar.

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.


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## teamtree (Jan 24, 2010)

JPS....I understand what you are saying but when you look at say the tree population (yard trees) in our largest town......Silver Maples make up close to 30% of the trees. Very rarely due they grow with perfect structure, many with co-dominant leaders and poor limb structure. I have seen far more damage in Silver Maples than other trees in our area, like Pin Oaks, White Oaks, Sugar Maples, Ash, Hickory and Walnut. I may be proven wrong in some scientific experience but I will stick with my experience and let nature be my guide for knowledge.

On top of that, when 75% of all yard trees are topped, the failure rate in Silver Maples is even greater.  

Going back to my point from an earlier post, doing a rehab on a tree that has been topped 10 years before, is pretty like setting yourself up for failure. Yes, if the customer calls 2 or 3 years after a topping, that is a great time to start a rehab....but not 10 years after.


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## teamtree (Jan 24, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I don't understand why people hate silver maples??? The idea that they are weak and brake up more then other species is BS, in my experiance it is only those that are butchered that have a lot of problems.
> 
> As for needing a lot of early training, that is any tree. I've been in many hard maples that are junk because there was no early care.



Maybe hate is a strong word. For me, they are one of my least favorite because they seem harder to prune than other trees. At the same time, since they are so abundant, we see more damage in them. I may be off base but I never said my opinions were worth much. 

Yes all trees need structural pruning at a young age.

Silver Maples seem to develop multiple leaders and by the time we get a call they are too old to start pruning for structure...especially if you have to remove a 12" diameter leader.

This is why I am starting a campaign for our company to plant more trees and get clients on a annual maintenance contract so we can control the trees structure.


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## pdqdl (Jan 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> ...
> If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping *[rarely]*, removing storm damage from _*[YES]*_ or removing them _*[YES]*_ . Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.



In KC, silver maples are found everywhere. I suspect you are right about the lower end neighborhoods, as they are a preferred tree by builders for their rapid growth and price to install. If I had to top a tree, it would be a silver maple or a siberian elm. You practically can't kill either variety with a chainsaw. I don't think I have ever sold or planted one; I certainly have never planted a siberian elm.

Watch out with that "topping" shotgun you just pointed at me. I think my company has topped 4 trees for two customers in the last 10 years. Sometimes you just can't talk them out of it.

Two of them were last year; siberian elms. They are positively hideous now, and we even had the customer talked into doing proper trimming. Then they decided that butchery was better. They even paid a higher price to get what they wanted.


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets.

Here's a study for you from TREE PATHOLOGY, A Short Introduction, Smith, page 39

Table IX...Susceptibility of Trees to Breaking By Ice Accumulation

Approx 40 species were listed in this study (From Croxton. Reproduced by permission of the Ecological Society of America)...

117 Silver maples were examined 68% were found to be badly broken

102 Sugar maples were examined 33% were found to be badly broken

Only 4 other species (out of 40) had more badly broken percentage than the Silv. maple. They were Salix babylonica, Betula alba, and Betula lutea at 100% (there were only a few of these) and Ulmus americana at 84%

Populus deltoides was at 50 % were found to be badly broken

This is an Eastern cottonwood. Ailanthus was not included.


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## pdqdl (Jan 25, 2010)

Hmmm...



treevet said:


> I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets...



I can't argue with that statement.

If you only consider the reference you cited, American Elm is an undesirable shade tree. 

While I don't consider them to be a shade tree in our area, paper birch are also valued landscape additions; although there are not many in our area.

I suspect that your source may have a flawed conclusion, based on a limited sample size or some other error. Except for their problems with disease, I consider American Elm to be an excellent shade tree, as did the rest of the country prior to Dutch elm disease. 

I suspect that Ailanthus was not included because everybody knows how nasty those trees are. Messy, hugely prolific, dangerous to work in, and break and fall unpredictably.

Just out of curiosity; what were the top five trees that the study approved of?


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## outofmytree (Jan 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> I don't hate silver maples and I don't hate rats either....they are just not appropriate for urban plantings near targets.
> 
> Here's a study for you from TREE PATHOLOGY, A Short Introduction, Smith, page 39
> 
> ...



How dare you bring facts to an emotional debate!! Shame on you!!

Joking aside. We have our share of undesirable species here too. For different reasons obviously as we have no frost let alone snow but I am sort of in your camp Dave. That is I would rather remove and replace than continuously prune a species unsuitable to a given area. 

On the other hand what would I know. I live in a country where no one but girlies wear pads when playing football.


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pdqdl (Jan 25, 2010)

I didn't think there was anyplace Ailanthus would not grow. I wouldn't be surprised to find them crowding out the date palms at an oasis in the middle of the Sahara desert.


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## pdqdl (Jan 25, 2010)

*At last! Something Ailanthus is good for:*

Inspired by my last post to discover where these weed trees do not grow, I came across this lovely (and commercially valuable) silkworm. Apparently, the sole host for this creature is the much dreaded Ailanthus tree:







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailanthus_silkmoth

Has anyone ever seen one of these moths?


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

That is true. I have seen them grow in some strange inner city places.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods.



I've never topped one, retopped two in twenty years, and have done thinning on hundreds; some i have returned to three or more times.

We find them in low, middle and high income areas. I think they get a bad rap because of how they have been abused in the past. I've removed many perfectly sound specimens because of this knee-jerk response to seeing one near a house. As you noted in Mathney decay is an issue, what was the history of the tree? You say they get topped often, i agree, there is a direct link. What was the past history of the tree, was it hacked, then repeatedly? A problem with limited, raw data.

Then there is the regional perspective, we have wind events here, very little snow/ice problems. Though my experiance with large ice and snow events you find it is more often structure that overall structure. If you have a spreading red oak, it will break off large sections. Like you say, it is the wide spreading nature of Ulums a. that makes it susceptible. Any tree with that form has problems, even bur oak, add in a few old pruning artifact/defects and 1/2 inch of ice is a killer.

Most large trees that have good structure can be maintained near a building in my region. I do have my list of species that I will not argue against removal, such as any Salix, IMO they are all fragilis


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've never topped one, retopped two in twenty years, and have done thinning on hundreds; some i have returned to three or more times.



Well we all probably agree on one thing. Silver maples get topped a lot.

But you think them getting topped causes defects and IMO they GET topped because they are prone to defect. It is not that they are poor comparmentalizers but rather because there is so much opportunity for pathogens with them always breaking up so much and the resultant taxing of their stores of energy and consequently their defense systems.

Another neg they have going against them is Silv. maples historically were the most planted tree under utility wires in the past and we all know what is going to happen to a tree in that location. Power of suggestion and the public carries that treatment into their yards.


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## treeseer (Jan 25, 2010)

Originally Posted by treevet View Post

If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods."

false in WI, false in IN. I've worked on several there--no topping, no removals. Cabling, thinning, reduction and yes restoration after previous topping. All in middle to high end areas, none lower end.

Like the bradford pear, an excellent species, IF maintained well, but often it is not.


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Originally Posted by treevet View Post
> 
> If you are making a good percentage of your living off of them you are likely topping, removing storm damage from or removing them. Silver maples are usually found in lower end neighborhoods."
> 
> ...



Sometimes I think you are from outer space.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2010)

treevet said:


> Sometimes I think you are from outer space.



Sometimes he pines away for his Haight-Ashbury days.



> Another neg they have going against them is Silv. maples historically were the most planted tree under utility wires in the past and we all know what is going to happen to a tree in that location. Power of suggestion and the public carries that treatment into their yards.



Since they are over represented in the population, and are chronically mistreated, they have artifacts from mistreatment that make them prone to failure. Yes, my observations are not empirical, but I have read studies that support my views. i just wish i kept a journal 15 years ago when i started learning.


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

We need more studies, more data being kept. No excuse with computers. They take a lot of the work out of it. College students would be great at it.


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## treevet (Jan 25, 2010)

I have been planting a number of Autumn blaze maples which are a Silver maple based cultivar. They describe it as a stronger wooded tree that will not grow so much out of bounds like a Silver maple. So then they have recognized the inherent weakness of the Silv. maple and either they have made it stronger OR they are fearful that they will have trouble selling this showy fall colored (bright red) tree if the buyers think it is just another silver maple and are telling a fib.

We planted one in front of this house and I am counting it to make a big show as it matures (still relatively fast growing) and be the centerpiece of the view from the road in the fall.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 26, 2010)

treevet said:


> I have been planting a number of Autumn blaze maples which are a Silver maple based cultivar.



A Freemanii, which are saccharinum x rubrum hybrid clonal cultivars. (some *culti*vatet *var*ieties are seed source derived, not clonal)

I have seen some are marketed as "more upright" . This the first I've heard as strong wooded, that has to be a gimmick. Anecdotally, I do not see the the reds as any less likely to fail then silver.


Did i mention yet that Betula nigra is near 100% in snow/ice failure? In the past several storms I have visited I noticed a high correlation between stem diameter and stem angle. The closer to parallel the farther down the stem the tree broke. So the sections of clumps that were more upright faired better in the storms. It was so regular that I am sure that if i had time I could have expressed it mathematically.

If you are in ice/snow susceptible regions, tell your clients that clumps are probably temporary plantings.


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