# A Real Eye Opener



## luvatenor (May 2, 2012)

Last night on a local Portland, Oregon TV station, they aired a story entitled, 'the world's most dangerous job'-Logging.
They interviewed Mike Pihl and members of his crew, including cutter Sean Gibson and processor operator Keith Morris. I was amazed when they revealed wages. The average logger with experience earns about $41,000/year, and Keith with decades of experience, just $21/hr., and has to travel 1 1/2 hour to work starting at 4:00AM. Despite these meager wages for such a dangerous and demanding job, they indicated that they would never think of doing anything else! Having families, these people struggle. They have my utmost respect and admiration-Rolf


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## SliverPicker (May 2, 2012)

$41,000 per year? I'd take that in a heartbeat.


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## treemandan (May 2, 2012)

SliverPicker said:


> $41,000 per year? I'd take that in a heartbeat.



that is what they hoped you would say.


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## stihlavarna (May 10, 2012)

Trades - Jobs - LEMARE LAKE LOGGING | BCJobnetwork.com

I've seen ads for fallers paying $400/day


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## 2dogs (May 10, 2012)

The company I work for hires labor from a temporary staffing agency primarily for brush work. We lose some time training the men and they are not efficient for 1 to 2 weeks. They start at a little over $15.00/hr. WC is paid by the agency and there are some restrictions in how they are used but overall it works out well. Some guys last a day or less as the work is hard and dirty but some have worked for months. Most are felons, drugs related mostly. Even murderers can make good employees.


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## D&B Mack (May 11, 2012)

@ 41k per year, is that with full bennies being provided by the company? I know a few guys around here that pay $300 to $400 a day for faller, but this is basically like a sub contractor. They are responsible for all their own equipment and their benefits.


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## Gologit (May 11, 2012)

D&B Mack said:


> @ 41k per year, is that with full bennies being provided by the company? I know a few guys around here that pay $300 to $400 a day for faller, but this is basically like a sub contractor. They are responsible for all their own equipment and their benefits.



That's pretty close although the number of companies that provide decent benefits seems to be decreasing every year. I'm also seeing a trend toward owner/operators on the equipment side of things. This has had the effect of making equipment rates very competitive...as in cheap.

Most of the falling is subbed out, there are very few outfits that have their own. Most of the guys I know do like you said, they take care of everything themselves...taxes, insurance, equipment, travel costs, etc....we call it "running your own numbers".


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## KenJax Tree (May 11, 2012)

Hell i made that doing line clearance and i only drove 10 minutes to work and then sat in the truck for 5 out of 8 hours.


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## Gologit (May 11, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Hell i made that doing line clearance and i only drove 10 minutes to work and then sat in the truck for 5 out of 8 hours.



Good. It's always a treat when the man fits the job and vise-versa.


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## KenJax Tree (May 11, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Good. It's always a treat when the man fits the job and vise-versa.



I can honestly say i didnt earn 41k and loggers earn way more than that.


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## slowp (May 11, 2012)

In places that are not close to cities, and the few employment opportunities are mostly in the restaurant/tourist trade, those are good wages.

You also have to realize that there is a lot of down time for fire closures, bad weather, snow, etc.


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## D&B Mack (May 11, 2012)

Gologit said:


> That's pretty close although the number of companies that provide decent benefits seems to be decreasing every year. I'm also seeing a trend toward owner/operators on the equipment side of things. This has had the effect of making equipment rates very competitive...as in cheap.
> 
> Most of the falling is subbed out, there are very few outfits that have their own. Most of the guys I know do like you said, they take care of everything themselves...taxes, insurance, equipment, travel costs, etc....we call it "running your own numbers".



That sucks, because most times I see companies make this conversion, the entire company cost savings does not pass on to the employee/sub. It takes a while for those costs to catch up.


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## Genius. (May 16, 2012)

D&B Mack said:


> @ 41k per year, is that with full bennies being provided by the company? I know a few guys around here that pay $300 to $400 a day for faller, but this is basically like a sub contractor. They are responsible for all their own equipment and their benefits.



I'm not in the logging industry, but I'm sure a sub contractor isn't getting rich on $300-400 a day. Insurance for that job can't be cheap.


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## Gologit (May 16, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> I'm not in the logging industry, but I'm sure a sub contractor isn't getting rich on $300-400 a day. Insurance for that job can't be cheap.



You're right.


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## forestryworks (May 17, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Hell i made that doing line clearance and i only drove 10 minutes to work and then sat in the truck for 5 out of 8 hours.





KenJax Tree said:


> I can honestly say i didnt earn 41k and loggers earn way more than that.



So... which is it?

You say you did, then you didn't.

You'd make a better politician than a tree monkey.


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## KenJax Tree (May 17, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> So... which is it?
> 
> You say you did, then you didn't.
> 
> You'd make a better politician than a tree monkey.



I was paid that but i didn't earn that.


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## 2dogs (May 17, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> I'm not in the logging industry, but I'm sure a sub contractor isn't getting rich on $300-400 a day. Insurance for that job can't be cheap.



Workers' Comp has been as high as $85.00/100.00. If a man earns $1000.00 the company has to pay $850.00 additional just to WC. Owner operator one man shows often don't have WC. They take a gamble on not getting hurt.

My current contract with Cal Fire pays $996.00 per day. That sounds like alot of money and it is but in the end I will make less than half of that after I take out State and Fed income taxes (40%), and insurance, cost of my saws ($2,000), PPE ($1,500), fuel, food, tent, sleeping bag, radio ($500 used). I figure 15MPG for my truck not to mention tires and wear and tear. I even have to pay Cal Fire $100 for the privilege of attending their required annual safety class.


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## Genius. (May 17, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Workers' Comp has been as high as $85.00/100.00. If a man earns $1000.00 the company has to pay $850.00 additional just to WC. Owner operator and one man shows often don't have WC. They take a gamble on not getting hurt.



Does a one man show need to pay workmans comp? 

I know the owner of the company even if he gets hurt on the job can't collect workmans comp. kind of a screw job.


Loggers and Farmers have always been, and always will be the backbone of this country.


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## 2dogs (May 17, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> Does a one man show need to pay workmans comp?
> 
> I know the owner of the company even if he gets hurt on the job can't collect workmans comp. kind of a screw job.
> 
> ...



I don't think a one man show can buy WC but I am not sure. I can't but I have full health insurance. I don't know what my carrier would say if I were hurt as the result of my own personal work. I hope I never find out!


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## Gologit (May 17, 2012)

*2dogs*

How's the knee?


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## 2dogs (May 17, 2012)

Gologit said:


> How's the knee?



Not as bad as first thought. The doc thought I had torn the cartilage in my knee but the P-therapist thinks it is bursitis. The swelling has to be brought down more, probably another week to go on that, before I have a CT scan or maybe an MRI. Right now I am doing the rest-ice-compression-elevation routine along with 2400mg of ibuprofen/day.

Thanks for asking.


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## Metals406 (May 17, 2012)

When you're a one man show, you have to get WC (if you want it) through State Fund. Most private insurance companies won't even look at you with less than 7 employees.

Just my coverage for one year of WC was $3,500. . . Cash up front.

I do what most poor owner/ops do, and that's cross your fingers that you don't get hurt. Some jobs require coverage, even though MT law says the owner/op doesn't have to have it -- but the folks running the work want you covered, so it can't come back on them.

To have liability insurance on your work, comp or insurance on yourself, and all the other paperwork, certificates, bonds, etc. . . A guy needs to make a couple grand a day to make a living above middle class -- and about 1k a day to do alright.

$400 a day nests you right in the too poor to own much category. . . Unless you like debt -- and even then, in reality, the bank owns it all.


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## Gologit (May 17, 2012)

There's some good information in this thread. Not real pleasant information but it's accurate.

As a rough rule of thumb when I'm working for myself, by myself, I try to keep 25% of the gross for my wages. If I can pay myself 25%, after taxes and after paying all other expenses, plus a little set aside for future and unforeseen costs, I've done pretty well. It usually works out to less than that and sometimes I wind up not paying myself very much at all.

So...If I'm making 400 a day cutting timber I can probably count on 100 a day in my pocket. Sometimes. But...400 a day is rare anymore unless you're cutting on steep ground or other conditions so miserable that nobody will take the job. 250 or 300 a day is more like it.

And then you can factor in the fact that you probably won't work 350 days a year. If you work 200 days, you've done well. At 300 bucks a day that's 60 thousand gross. Take out the taxes, the insurance, the cost for saws and fuel, transportation, lodging and food if you're away from home, and you're probably back down to that 25% number I use. If you're lucky. Burn up a saw, ruin a couple of tires, get blown out for a week or so, and your pocket money drops way down.

If you're trying to raise a family and pay off a mortgage you better find a good job...for your wife.

I don't see thing changing for the better...not any time soon.


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## gtsawyer (May 17, 2012)

It never seemed right to me that jobs requiring "real" work never seem to pay extremely well. There seems to be a correlation between the amount of time spent sitting in chair and level of pay.

Weird.


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## Metals406 (May 17, 2012)

To put things in perspective -- a GM of a public utility might haul in $150,000 a year. He has no overhead (maybe some student loans), and just drags a sac lunch to work. Yes, he'll have Union dues, family insurance, etc. . . But that's not true overhead, in the same sense as a business owner.

He might bring home $90,000-$115,000 when it's all said and done.

Take a small business owner that shows $150,000 coming through the door, and I guaran-damn-tee you he's only gonna see $40,000-$60,000 at years end. And that's looking on the sunshine and unicorn farts side of things.


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## Genius. (May 18, 2012)

gtsawyer said:


> It never seemed right to me that jobs requiring "real" work never seem to pay extremely well. There seems to be a correlation between the amount of time spent sitting in chair and level of pay.
> 
> Weird.



I spent 2 years pouring concrete, but the rest of my life I have been a farmer. There is. It enough money in this world to pay me to sit behind a desk for 40 hours a week.


Wait, people only work 40 hours a week.... I don't know what I would do with all my spare time if I only had to work 40 hours in a week... This week I had 40 hours in around 11am on Wendsday.


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## Genius. (May 18, 2012)

Gologit said:


> There's some good information in this thread. Not real pleasant information but it's accurate.
> 
> As a rough rule of thumb when I'm working for myself, by myself, I try to keep 25% of the gross for my wages. If I can pay myself 25%, after taxes and after paying all other expenses, plus a little set aside for future and unforeseen costs, I've done pretty well. It usually works out to less than that and sometimes I wind up not paying myself very much at all.
> 
> ...





Metals406 said:


> When you're a one man show, you have to get WC (if you want it) through State Fund. Most private insurance companies won't even look at you with less than 7 employees.
> 
> Just my coverage for one year of WC was $3,500. . . Cash up front.
> 
> ...




How does the over time work for you:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treemandan (May 18, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Not as bad as first thought. The doc thought I had torn the cartilage in my knee but the P-therapist thinks it is bursitis. The swelling has to be brought down more, probably another week to go on that, before I have a CT scan or maybe an MRI. Right now I am doing the rest-ice-compression-elevation routine along with 2400mg of ibuprofen/day.
> 
> Thanks for asking.



Dude, drink a lot of water!


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## Gologit (May 18, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> How does the over time work for you:hmm3grin2orange:



I take it as comp time.


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## Metals406 (May 18, 2012)

TheGenius said:


> How does the over time work for you:hmm3grin2orange:



Yeah, I do it for free, just like the other 30% of the work.


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## SliverPicker (Aug 6, 2012)

I spent the past 4 weeks living in my pickup and felling trees about an hour and a half from home and at 10,500 feet elevation. $20 per hour for me and another $5 per hour for my saw. Zero benefits. At 10,000 plus feet the season is short. Some of the song birds where already starting to pack it up for the year three weeks ago. On the mornings of July 16th and 17th I awoke to find 1/16" of ice on my entire truck and my doors frozen shut. It was not much fun cooking eggs on the tailgate those two mornings. One evening I got to watch two juvenile cow moose swim 3/4 of a mile across a small lake. 

I wish I would have gone to college instead. Oh wait, I did! B.S. in forestry. The diploma was never worth the paper it was printed on. 

Being a blue-collar worker in America has probably never been as dismal as it is today, but I love my job!


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## Fronty Owner (Sep 8, 2012)

*an eye opener on wages*

I work for an oil services company. 
I have a close buddy that took a field job for another company. He is working offshore asia making $700/day plus travel, plus per deim, plus $20K/year base salary. works 30 days on, 30 days off and he doesn't work nearly as hard as loggers. heck, he doesn't work nearly as hard as most of the locals hired for rig hands.


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