# Building Log Lift, How to add 2nd Valve



## dirtyedge (Jan 23, 2009)

I am in the process of designing and building a log lift for my log splitter. I built it from scratch 6 years ago and used a prince detent valve for the ram. 

I have seen a few log lifts on here that look like they ran 2 of the prince detent valves in series. Is this an acceptable way of running them? ( supply to IN on first valve OUT to the IN on second valve and OUT to reservoir)

If you have any other designs or have used them this way succesfully please let me know.

Thanks,
Aaron


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jan 23, 2009)

*Here's your illustration posted for you!*



dirtyedge said:


> I am in the process of designing and building a log lift for my log splitter. I built it from scratch 6 years ago and used a prince detent valve for the ram.
> 
> I have seen a few log lifts on here that look like they ran 2 of the prince detent valves in series. Is this an acceptable way of running them? ( supply to IN on first valve OUT to the IN on second valve and OUT to reservoir)
> 
> ...



Aaron

I don't know the answer to your question but here's your illustration posted for you!

Dan


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## Mike Van (Jan 23, 2009)

Aaron, mines hooked up that way, in series. It's worked fine for years. However, it is said that to add valves 'downstream" the first valve should have a power-beyond port. There's a way I guess for pressure to build up in series without this port [the port just lets this fluid have a place to go back to the tank]


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## dirtyedge (Jan 23, 2009)

Mike,

What valves are you running? I am currently using the log splitter detent valve from NothernTool item # 2020, and would prefer to use a second one that is the same. 

Is anyone using these Prince valves in Series? or do I have to find one with the Power beyond port


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## Mike Van (Jan 23, 2009)

Same ones Aaron - I've got three hooked in series.


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## Blazin (Jan 23, 2009)

I just opted to get a combo valve from http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009012318083652&item=9-7414&catname=hydraulic Alot less screwin around.


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## skid row (Jan 23, 2009)

Blazin said:


> I just opted to get a combo valve from http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009012318083652&item=9-7414&catname=hydraulic Alot less screwin around.



If you already got one valve just buy another(less than $100). The other option is if you have no valve money invested already you can get the 2 spool valve from surplus center that is designed for splitters with a log lift. 

It's pricey at $229.95 not including shipping..... Item#9-7414. 

I ran two valves in series on my splitter. I could not justify spending the extra coin for a two spool valve since I already had a single spool splitter valve already. The second identical valve cost me $64. All I can say is after 300 hours of splitting last year it works just fine.


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## SWI Don (Jan 23, 2009)

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/valves/RD5000InstS.pdf

Here is a link to a pdf showing how to do it by the book. This is how mine is done - autocycle, log lift & hydraulic adjustable 4-way.

Don


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## aokpops (Jan 23, 2009)

don,t need a log lift . just build a swing axle .no extra cylinder or valve .half to roll the rounds to the splitter anyway . just roll it on the splitter. if you can wait I will try to get some pics .


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 24, 2009)

Some people are passing pure horse hockey by saying it is not acceptable, or it is immoral or anything other than plain OK to place open center valves in series or "stacked" in this application ( sorry for the rant, second time this week for this discussion). You can go look at any older back hoe, grader etc that was built back when such equipment had gear pumps and all the valves were open center and made to stack with long through bolts. Want to have 50 valves? just need to find long enough bolts. I have worked on this stuff for a living for 35 of my 52 years.

With the single valves like you have stacking is a simple matter of a pipe nipple long enough to give clearance to turn, dope the threads and screw them together out port to in port just like you said. The only way you can have excess pressures as some claim is if you fail to properly set the reliefs in the valves and then your going to have it no matter if you pull one valve at once or twenty one. Each open center valve has a relief for that circuit. If you pull two or more valves at once the lowest set relief will control system PSI. period end of discussion.

Also BS is "you cant run two functions at once with stacked valves". Want to see my splitter do it? Seldom will you pull two valves at once on a splitter anyway unless you have a good helper and if so he better be both good and attentive. Want to get hurt spltting wood? get lots off things moving and two guys pulling levers. I have two darned good helpers and it is taboo for morethan one guy to be yanking levers.

Power beyond is needed in systems much more complex in flows and performance than wood splitters. To understand Power beyond you need to understand open center and closed center valves. Open center means that when in the hold position oil flows unrestricted from the in port to the out port Closed center means oil is topped from flowing when valve is in the center. Obviously you cannot stop the oil from flowing when you have a simple gear or vane pump as used on our splitters. The oil flow is either is used for work or goes straight through the valve(s) and back to the tank. Back before the term power beyond was invented we did the same thing with what is called a "convertible" valves. An open center convertible valve was made closed center by installing a plug in the spool so oil could not flow through it when centered. These were used in systems that required that type of valve (another long winded discussion) Now a days they are still called convert a valves, untill placed in a "power beyond" situation. Power beyond is nothing new, it just a modern term for placing two or more control valves in parellel flows instead of series. But back to a splitting ciruit, converting valve 1 in the flows to closed center is what the power beyond conversion is in the Prince flow example from prior poster (I have that same valve) The second valve must then be open center. If you wish to go that route and want better instructions for plumbing Illbe glad to try and help you out.


I guess I have said enough, LOL

Pic is my splitter with 4 valves stacked or in series . First is a 2 spool Prince Auto cycle valve, then the wedge lift, then the log lift which are just ordinary “log splitter” valves sold at many places. Wont guide the space shuttle, but doesn’t need to.

<IMG SRC= http://i30.tinypic.com/2h6h8q0.jpg>


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 24, 2009)

Good post Butch and right on with it. 

Mines been doubled up for years...

Nice WD by the way also


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## SWI Don (Jan 24, 2009)

Butch,

I didn't say anything about acceptable or immoral. I just posted the manufactures recommended method. This is the same way a Timberwolf TW-5 is plumbed and also the way I plumbed mine. If it works for you to run them in series, go for it. 

Valve one is not necessarily a closed center valve to start with. Although if it was closed center linking tank drain to pressure port on the second valve isn't going to work.

I would venture to say that the stack valves on the backhoe vs the monoblock valves we are talking about had a parallel circuit to allow simultaneous functions running the backhoe. I will digress that you have worked on them first hand and I do not have direct knowledge of the systems you speak of.

You are right that log splitting is a series operation - you do one thing at a time. Running more than one thing at once will generally get someone hurt.

Unless someone deleted a post it looks like you are lighting my a$$ up for no good reason. I hope what ever was eating on you is better now.

Peace

Don


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## Dan_IN_MN (Jan 24, 2009)

*Do you have more pictures of your wood system?*

Do you have more pictures of your wood system? It looks like you've got a nice system there!

Thanks

Dan



Butch(OH) said:


> Pic is my splitter with 4 valves stacked or in series . First is a 2 spool Prince Auto cycle valve, then the wedge lift, then the log lift which are just ordinary “log splitter” valves sold at many places. Wont guide the space shuttle, but doesn’t need to.
> 
> <IMG SRC= http://i30.tinypic.com/2h6h8q0.jpg>


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## dirtyedge (Jan 24, 2009)

Butch,
Thanks for clearing it up for me. I will run them in series, it helps having more knowledge on the subject before tackling the job. Also do you know of a good flow control valve for the log lift? ( or is it really needed) I have heard some people talk about using them to slow the lift otherwise the lift flips up too quick.

aokpops,
I built my logsplitter with hubs that can be flipped to take the working height from about 30 inches down to about 8 but I would much rather have a log lift and be able to stand up while splitting than have to bend down all day while trying to roll the logs up on the beam. 
I also like the added table that you gain by having the log lift.


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 24, 2009)

SWI Don said:


> Butch,
> 
> I didn't say anything about acceptable or immoral. I just posted the manufactures recommended method. This is the same way a Timberwolf TW-5 is plumbed and also the way I plumbed mine. If it works for you to run them in series, go for it.
> 
> ...



Peace brother, I didn't aim any comment at you. It was kinda tersly worded I see that now. Was arguing same point on another site (second time thius week comment) with two hydraulic rocket scientists.

Series is not better, but it works for what is asked of a splitter system. Is easier for the novice to plumb and understand when he was problems and cheaper to buy.


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## Butch(OH) (Jan 24, 2009)

manyhobies said:


> Do you have more pictures of your wood system? It looks like you've got a nice system there!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan



Sure enough, best part of my system is the help but they are going to college next fall so i am trying to get where I can do it alone, 11 cord a year/

<IMG SRC=http://i30.tinypic.com/s4cbjb.jpg>

<IMG SRC=http://i28.tinypic.com/2gwx24z.jpg>

<IMG SRC=http://i29.tinypic.com/31619uf.jpg>

<IMG SRC=http://i27.tinypic.com/2ztiy53.jpg>

<IMG SRC=http://i26.tinypic.com/15eicf8.jpg>


Two ways to slow the lift, cheapest is to buy a larger diameter cylinder than you realy need for the lift. You can also use a flow controller as used to control motors but that adds much cost and plumbing. You could use a needle type valve in the lift circuit and let the relief valve jack while lifting but that is kinda backwoods way and hard on the pump and relief valve.


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## Blazin (Jan 24, 2009)

Nice unit! 
I brazed my lower fitting on the lift cylinder shut, and then drilled a 3/32 hole thru it..... Free flow restricter


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## Modifiedmark (Jan 25, 2009)

Blazin said:


> Nice unit!
> I brazed my lower fitting on the lift cylinder shut, and then drilled a 3/32 hole thru it..... Free flow restricter




Exactly what I did on mine, except I used a 1/8" drill, but should have went smaller.


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 18, 2009)

*valve stacking*



Butch(OH) said:


> Sure enough, best part of my system is the help but they are going to college next fall so i am trying to get where I can do it alone, 11 cord a year/
> 
> <IMG SRC=http://i30.tinypic.com/s4cbjb.jpg>
> 
> ...



Just wanted to know I built a splitter and have the auto cycle valve like yours. Does the out port have to go back to the tank or can i put another single valve there.


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## SWI Don (Oct 18, 2009)

lotzy13881 said:


> Just wanted to know I built a splitter and have the auto cycle valve like yours. Does the out port have to go back to the tank or can i put another single valve there.



It should work fine as long as the downstream valve is not too restrictive. I personally would (and did) put the auto cycle valve as last in the chain. That way you have less chance of a back pressure spike when the valve switches directions. The backpressure could trip the second detent. 

If it is going to be a big tear up to put it last then try it with the additional valve on the return line. If it works consistently then keep it.

Don


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## Beefie (Oct 18, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Some people are passing pure horse hockey by saying it is not acceptable, or it is immoral or anything other than plain OK to place open center valves in series or "stacked" in this application ( sorry for the rant, second time this week for this discussion). You can go look at any older back hoe, grader etc that was built back when such equipment had gear pumps and all the valves were open center and made to stack with long through bolts. Want to have 50 valves? just need to find long enough bolts. I have worked on this stuff for a living for 35 of my 52 years.
> 
> With the single valves like you have stacking is a simple matter of a pipe nipple long enough to give clearance to turn, dope the threads and screw them together out port to in port just like you said. The only way you can have excess pressures as some claim is if you fail to properly set the reliefs in the valves and then your going to have it no matter if you pull one valve at once or twenty one. Each open center valve has a relief for that circuit. If you pull two or more valves at once the lowest set relief will control system PSI. period end of discussion.
> 
> ...



Good post Butch. I thought that you were just tired and not thinking and typing at the same time It was posted @ midnight. Very good explanation of the hydraulics. One more person I can right down for info when I go to build my own splitter.

Is your splitter PTO driven, how big of a pump are you running, single stage or dual stage how big is the ram on the splitter.

Thanks
Beefie


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 18, 2009)

*add valves*



SWI Don said:


> It should work fine as long as the downstream valve is not too restrictive. I personally would (and did) put the auto cycle valve as last in the chain. That way you have less chance of a back pressure spike when the valve switches directions. The backpressure could trip the second detent.
> 
> If it is going to be a big tear up to put it last then try it with the additional valve on the return line. If it works consistently then keep it.
> 
> Don



I have 2 single valves with the second tying into the auto cycle being a detent so ,when my detents on the autocycle set, the lift with the detent valve decides to lift about 4 inches everytime it detents sounds like pressure backs into the detent valve it will actually move the single detent valve handle. (dangerous) Please help Ill try to post pics if i can figure this site out Thanks


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 18, 2009)

*pics*

here are some pics hope this worked
View attachment 112319


View attachment 112320


View attachment 112321


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## SWI Don (Oct 19, 2009)

lotzy13881 said:


> I have 2 single valves with the second tying into the auto cycle being a detent so ,when my detents on the auto-cycle set, the lift with the detent valve decides to lift about 4 inches every time it detents sounds like pressure backs into the detent valve it will actually move the single detent valve handle. (dangerous) Please help Ill try to post pics if i can figure this site out Thanks



Ouch! That is scary. Which valve is doing the jumping, the first or the middle? Does it jump if you just hold the first lever pulled of the auto cycle at the end of the stroke? If so it could be the pressure build up in the feed line causing the spool to shift. If that is the case you may have a broken or relaxed centering spring. If the lever of the valve moves when it happens this is most likely the case. In any case one of your spool valves does not like having pressure build up or fluctuations on it's tank drain port. 

The pressure land on the spool should be symmetrical but maybe the drain lands are not and the pressure spikes are causing the spool to shift. It appears you have two different brands of valves upstream of your auto-cycle valve, maybe one of them is not compatible with being put into series. Did you run this rig previously without an auto-cycle valve to run the ram? Did it have three valves in series then?

I haven't had any issues with interaction between the valves but I am using the power beyond port in my first valve (Prince RD-5200) so both my valves have their own tank drains. Only the open center pump circuit goes from the first valve to the second. 

Hopefully Butch will chime in as his setup is very similar to yours. Your solution might be to change out the valve with the reaction with another valve like the one that doesn't have the issue.

Don


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 19, 2009)

Nice job on the splitters, guys. I like the old A.C. too. I'm going to graft a lift on the old homemade splitter I've got...thanks for the good info!


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 19, 2009)

*fixed problem*

I moved the middle valve to the outlet of my autocycle and it works great. I was a little nervous as to i didnt know if it would hurt anything but parts are replaceable. I splitt 1 cord in no time without any problems Thanks for the advice.


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## Junkfxr (Oct 20, 2009)

The valves on my splitter have been plumbed that way for many years without a problem. I used to think that it wouldn't work also until I went to work at a sawmill one time and the debarker had a bank of about 8-10 single valves all connected with nipples, and this was a factory set up. Worked fine.


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 20, 2009)

*Butch and Don*

If you get a chance, can you post a pic of underneath the log lift?
Want to see how you mounted the cylinder.


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 20, 2009)

*pics*

some pics of finished splitter before valves were switched. Next project is a four way wedge.


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## Blazin (Oct 20, 2009)

That's one kick azz lookin splitter with 2 lifts, great job!!!  Like mine that's gotta be a biatch to move unless you hook it to something. Next thing is to put a piece of timber on that monster instead of kindling wood for a photo shoot :hmm3grin2orange:


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## SWI Don (Oct 20, 2009)

Here are some pics of the log lift.

It is made of 3" channel because that is what I had laying around. The bracket is bolted to the beam with the log guide on the other side.

The cylinder mounts using some lugs welded to the bottom flange of the 8 x 8 in beam. The other end of the cylinder mounts to a pipe welded between the sides of the log lift with a couple of lugs. 

The range of motion is from slightly below level of the outer part to the inner section being level with the top of the beam. The pictures actually show it sagging down some. 

I have a jack on the other side of the beam from the lift to allow use of the log lift when not tied to a vehicle. You can see it in one of the photos in the transport position.

When I go down the road I pull the pin out of the bottom of the table and flip the table over the beam. I then bungee up the cylinder. That way I do not have the log lift hanging out the side scaring oncoming traffic.:jawdrop:

Don


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## mtfallsmikey (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks Don...it's all clear to me now!


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## Butch(OH) (Oct 21, 2009)

Sorry guys but cannot post a pic of that log lift because it no longer exists. I merged my splitter into a processor I built over the summer. You can see the splitter beam in the pic, its the red part to the left side. I designed my processor so I could use the splitter manualy on stuff too big to run through the machine,( or when I want to run a saw) I do have a log lift on the processor that is real unique but I dont have a pic of it to show ya'll. 

The processor from the rear

<IMG SRC=http://i28.tinypic.com/2zsz96f.jpg>


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 21, 2009)

Blazin said:


> That's one kick azz lookin splitter with 2 lifts, great job!!!  Like mine that's gotta be a biatch to move unless you hook it to something. Next thing is to put a piece of timber on that monster instead of kindling wood for a photo shoot :hmm3grin2orange:



A little hard but it is balanced well just need a hydro motor for the jack and driveable it be


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 21, 2009)

*hydraulic ?*

Does anyone know what the valve is called that Timberwolf uses on the back of the ram cylinder to bypass valve and go straight to the tank?


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## lotzy13881 (Oct 22, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> Sorry guys but cannot post a pic of that log lift because it no longer exists. I merged my splitter into a processor I built over the summer. You can see the splitter beam in the pic, its the red part to the left side. I designed my processor so I could use the splitter manualy on stuff too big to run through the machine,( or when I want to run a saw) I do have a log lift on the processor that is real unique but I dont have a pic of it to show ya'll.
> 
> The processor from the rear
> 
> <IMG SRC=http://i28.tinypic.com/2zsz96f.jpg>



looks good post some pics of the beast


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## kevin j (Oct 23, 2009)

QDoes anyone know what the valve is called that Timberwolf uses on the back of the ram cylinder to bypass valve and go straight to the tank? Q



I couldn't find anything on the site referring to it, but it may be a fairly common industrial circuit using a pilot operated check or poppet from the closed end of cylinder directly back to tank. The pilot signal comes from the rod side of the manual valve. Anytime the cylinder is being retracted, the pressure to the rod side also pilots open the bypass and the high flow coming out of closed side skips the main control valve and goes directly to tank. (It could be done to both ports, for both directions, but there is no reason to do so on the rod side.)

Any pilot operated (PO) check valve or PO spool valve can work. A remote ported unloading valve (similar to what is in a two stage pump, but in an external body all of its own), or remote ported counterbalance valve, can all be made to do the same thing. Basically, any valve that can open a path to tank when piloted with a pressure signal from the rod side of the circuit. 

This type of circuit could work well on a splitter when the load is always resistive and doesn’t run ahead of the control. If the cylinder can overrun (say a log lift going down), a PO check can work but it may be unstable and chatter. Counterbalance may work better, but beyond the scope of this discussion. 

There is some explanation here from Bud Trinkels book posted on HydrPneumatics website

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/eBooks/Article/True/45149/


Sun Hydraulics is a big name. Hydraforce, Parker/Sterling, Modular Controls/Vickers/Eaton probably all have them. 
I haven't checked surplus center, they may have. They had surplus remote piloted relief/unloading valves, but only three left and I bought all three this summer at $10 each.

This type of valve is not something Northern Tool or Harbor Freight would have. 


The reason for the unloading is to reduce the pressure drop back to tank in a large flow portion of the circuit. In industrial equipment the flow differences can be huge if the cylinder has a large rod compared to its bore size. Logsplitter, not so much difference, and I doubt worth the complexity unless you have a large cylinder and large pump flow.

When a circuit is FLOW limited, i.e. like most small pump logsplitters, flow at the cylinder is defined by the pump output. Retract speed is faster than extend because the rod side area is smaller. Same gpm into smaller area = cylinder moves faster. 

However, the flow out of the closed side is more than the pump flow into the rod side because of the larger area, so there can be quite high flows out through the main control valve. Pressure drops can get high, flow forces can make the valve malfunction, but using larger valves can get expensive. Then this circuit can make some sense.

Bunny trail, but in an extreme case, the circuit can become PRESSURE limited and the retract speed is actually SLOWER than extend speed. This is due to the high backpressure pushing against the larger area on the closed side of piston. The balance of pump flow ends up going across the relief valve. Servovalve circuits all work this way, but they use pressure compensated variable pumps. Retract is slower than extend. Not common sense at all, but if you work out the math it is obvious why.


kcj


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## Splitwood (Apr 6, 2010)

Suppose the valves are run at 2700 PSI. How are the individual valves tuned for this pressure if they are connected in series with steel pipe between them?

Is it possible to run the log lift at 1500 PSI and the split cyl at 2700 PSI with them connected in series?


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## kevin j (Apr 6, 2010)

yes, but only if the 2700 si relief valve is first in the circuit, and the 1500 psi relief is second. It will always relieve at the lowest settting that is 'online' so to speak. When first one operates, the second one is out of the picture.


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## aranha (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm in the process of building a log lift and what i was told is that you can't run the control valves in series only because when you actuate the lift, the splitter ram may activate also. I was told to simply tee off of the first pressure in and run that to your second log lift control valve. In other words, run them in parallel. I picked up another log splitter detent valve and was going to do it that way but later, found a two spool valve which will save me some fittings and plumbing. Now I'll have two extra valves left over to add something else to my splitter, ha, ha. Yes, I was told about power beyond and all that. It means that you have to buy a valve that has that port and a sleeve to go in it, an added expense that's not needed. Hope this helps anyone.


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## Jakers (Feb 4, 2012)

i may be wrong but if you T'ed into the pressure side you wouldnt get any function to build any pressure more than the resistance of oil flow thru the other valves neutral position. the oil would take the path of least resistance would it not? iv always wondered this because ive heard many people say "oh just put a T in ur pressure side and hook up another valve". this may work on a closed center system but from all my experience i dont see how it could in a normal open center. correct me if im wrong here


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## Ductape (Feb 4, 2012)

Jakers said:


> i may be wrong but if you T'ed into the pressure side you wouldnt get any function to build any pressure more than the resistance of oil flow thru the other valves neutral position. the oil would take the path of least resistance would it not? iv always wondered this because ive heard many people say "oh just put a T in ur pressure side and hook up another valve". this may work on a closed center system but from all my experience i dont see how it could in a normal open center. correct me if im wrong here




You are correct, circuits must be run in series. 'T'ing the pressure side will cause the hydraulic flow to take the path of least resistance...... which will be away from the cylinder which is doing the work. The only line you can 'T' is the return line going back to the tank. 

Also..... I see alot of hydraulic experts online using (and advising others to use) pipe, and street elbows for hydraulic connections. These are commonly found in the plumbing section of your nearby Big Box home improvement store. Please....... only use hydraulic fittings when doing your plumbing. The only place it is acceptable to use street elbows in on your return line to the tank. Cast iron fittings are commonly rated to withstand 150 PSI , NOT the 2000 to 3000 PSI seen in hydraulic systems. If you use plumbing fittings on the pressure side of your system, you are asking for trouble ! 

Gangreen does NOT look good on you !


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## Preston (Feb 4, 2012)

Thanks to all of you on this thread. This is good stuff. Reading this puts me in "hog heaven". I love it. I'm a fabrication freak and know just enough hydraulics to get myself if a bind. Some real killer splitters. The, to me, innovation is incredible. And thanks for all the pictures.

You folks are something. Butch, you explanation helped clear up a lot for me.

pt


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## aranha (Feb 6, 2012)

*Log splitter valves*

Thanks for the info. I don't know yet about open and closed systems and but will here soon. I'm sure hearing many different views on hooking up valves in series and/or parrallel. I did solve my hook up with a dual spool valve but I need to know, still, the correct way of hooking valves up. No disrespect intended to any of you but I'm not sure who to believe about now. And I'm sure, at this point, it's mostly due to the fact that I still need to learn more about hydraulics. Good tip on the plumbing fittings, I see them on all kinds of hydraulic systems on the pressure side.


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