# New Weapon



## Shaun Bowler (Jul 24, 2009)

I am in the market for a new home defence weapon.
I have an old Mossberg 500, folding stock, short barrel.
However, it is old about 20 years.
I am interested in the POF P-415.
I have reserched the POF rifles and the fact that they are super low maintenance, almost zero is a great feature.
However I have been looking at the Remington XCS, Bennelli m4, (really expensive) Mossberg 590, and a Russian Shotgun, the Saiga (really inexpensive)
I live in the SF Bay area now, but will be moving to NM in the next couple of years. Any thoughts on what you think would be my best move?


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## ShoerFast (Jul 24, 2009)

A 9MM, as you have the 12GA. 

Really, old is just a number, if that shotgun is functionable why another of the same?

There is not much the newer shotguns can do that your won't.


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## Kilkenny (Jul 24, 2009)

The POF is a great weapon, however I'm not sold on the gas piston system for AR-15s. I've never had jamming problems with direct impingement rifles, even after hundreds of rounds and no cleaning. The gas piston system only really shines after heavy use when used on a fully automatic weapon in demanding conditions. One problem you will run into with any piston driven AR is bolt carrier tilt. This can wear down the back of the carrier and the rear of the receiver much faster due to the fact that the carrier is rubbing when it travels back. 

Like I said, POF is great, but I think for the money, there's superior AR rifles out there. Look into a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper and get a standard lower and you'll have a rifle that can shoot 1/2'' groups at 100 yards and be perfectly reliable with a few drops of oil every once in a while. I've put 1,000+ rounds through mine with no failures. I just put some LT Machine Gunner's Lube on wear points whenever I clean it and it runs perfectly.


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## stihl sawing (Jul 24, 2009)

I have the 590, Added a vertical foregrip and a touch activated mag light on the grip. Also extra ammo caddy.


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## Shaun Bowler (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks everybody, keep your comments coming.
I have not used this site to ask for advice before. 
Being tree a worker, it is an honor to be apart of this brotherhood.
I have sent out some stupid/contraversial stuff in the past on this site.
That is the nature of our tribe, and I am proud to be a part of it.
:greenchainsaw:


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## Shagbark (Jul 24, 2009)

I recommend the LMT CQB in 6.8mm SPC. Order the 5.56mm piston conversion also. EOTECH co-witnessed to the iron sights, forward grip, rail light of at least 125 lumens, plenty of mags and ammo. Mine shoots the same hole at 100yd from sandbags with 110gr Hornady Vmax.


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## clearance (Jul 24, 2009)

You Americans, really, can't you just run out the back door if someone breaks in? :greenchainsaw:


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## stihl sawing (Jul 24, 2009)

clearance said:


> You Americans, really, can't you just run out the back door if someone breaks in? :greenchainsaw:


Nope, But the burglers won't make it to the back door.


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## Shagbark (Jul 24, 2009)

clearance said:


> You Americans, really, can't you just run out the back door if someone breaks in? :greenchainsaw:



I could, my wife could, my young ones couldn't. Wouldn't want to let the home intruders have my daughters. Wouldn't want to get tired from the running (btw are you French?), Wouldn't want them getting something for nothing. Would guarantee accurate, multiple lethal hits and only 1 side of the story told.

Oh, yea what if they come in the back door?


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## stihl sawing (Jul 24, 2009)

Buckshot works wonders on assailants. hardly ever a need for a follow up shot.


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## clearance (Jul 24, 2009)

Shagbark said:


> I could, my wife could, my young ones couldn't. Wouldn't want to let the home intruders have my daughters. Wouldn't want to get tired from the running (btw are you French?), Wouldn't want them getting something for nothing. Would guarantee accurate, multiple lethal hits and only 1 side of the story told.
> 
> Oh, yea what if they come in the back door?



I was joking. Here all I got is my dogs and a couple of old time falling axes hanging on the wall. But, if I ever used one of them old axes on a burglar, I would go to jail. Maybe, if the guy was a total and provable scumbag, and I had some character witness lie for me, I could get out of it, maybe.


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## Shagbark (Jul 25, 2009)

clearance said:


> I was joking. Here all I got is my dogs and a couple of old time falling axes hanging on the wall. But, if I ever used one of them old axes on a burglar, I would go to jail. Maybe, if the guy was a total and provable scumbag, and I had some character witness lie for me, I could get out of it, maybe.



Falling axes sound like an accident waiting to happen....how unlucky that intruder was.


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## stihl sawing (Jul 25, 2009)

clearance said:


> I was joking. Here all I got is my dogs and a couple of old time falling axes hanging on the wall. But, if I ever used one of them old axes on a burglar, I would go to jail. Maybe, if the guy was a total and provable scumbag, and I had some character witness lie for me, I could get out of it, maybe.


Wow, You mean if someone breaks in you're home that you cannot defend you're family. Man that really is bad. Here if they are in you're house for any reason you can use deadly force. Now you just can't shoot them if they are in you're yard or even stealing something outside the home.I would hate to think that some guy breaks in a attempts to rape my wife or kill all of us and i can't do nothing.


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## clearance (Jul 25, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> Wow, You mean if someone breaks in you're home that you cannot defend you're family. Man that really is bad. Here if they are in you're house for any reason you can use deadly force. Now you just can't shoot them if they are in you're yard or even stealing something outside the home.I would hate to think that some guy breaks in a attempts to rape my wife or kill all of us and i can't do nothing.



It isn't that you can't do nothing, its that you are not really supposed to. People do what they gotta do, just a whole lot easier and simpler where you are at.


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## stihl sawing (Jul 25, 2009)

clearance said:


> It isn't that you can't do nothing, its that you are not really supposed to. People do what they gotta do, just a whole lot easier and simpler where you are at.


It must not get drug through the courts and all the legal stuff that has to be checked out. That would be allright.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 25, 2009)

clearance said:


> You Americans, really, can't you just run out the back door if someone breaks in? :greenchainsaw:



Criminals can't be trusted. Armed accomplices could be hiding out back. Why be a sucker for an ambush? Dead offenders can't be repeat offenders, can they?
:monkey:


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## dingeryote (Jul 25, 2009)

clearance said:


> I was joking. Here all I got is my dogs and a couple of old time falling axes hanging on the wall. But, if I ever used one of them old axes on a burglar, I would go to jail. Maybe, if the guy was a total and provable scumbag, and I had some character witness lie for me, I could get out of it, maybe.



LOL!!!

Don't laugh cuz I'm serious. I actually have some very nice firearms that are too nice to be used on the likes of some poopstain, and keep highly functional but plain weapons handy instead.

The first thing that is gonna happen is the cops are gonna tag the things as evidence and treat them like a pipewrench, which is a horrible thing to do to a really nice handgun.

Go get a cheap Chineese Ax and keep it handy.
I'd hate for ya to lose the cool old antiques because you had to rightfully splatter some jerkoff's brain with one. That ain't right.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## dingeryote (Jul 25, 2009)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Criminals can't be trusted. Armed accomplices could be hiding out back. Why be a sucker for an ambush? Dead offenders can't be repeat offenders, can they?
> :monkey:



A cop buddy of mine got the whole family out from the second story using the fire escape ladders, and seeing as how he put the duty belt on over his PJ's, waited for the dumbasses to come back out the back door.
His 'Ol lady was around front with the shotgun.

The dipsticks called 911 and actually told dispatch that they broke in and some crazy guy and his wife were holding them hostage in the house...LOL!!!

Stupid hurts. It's supposed to!!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## KMB (Jul 25, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> A cop buddy of mine got the whole family out from the second story using the fire escape ladders, and seeing as how he put the duty belt on over his PJ's, waited for the dumbasses to come back out the back door.
> His 'Ol lady was around front with the shotgun.
> 
> *The dipsticks called 911 and actually told dispatch that they broke in and some crazy guy and his wife were holding them hostage in the house...LOL!!!*
> ...



That's awesome! I love it! 

Incoming rep...if I can...

Kevin


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 25, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> A cop buddy of mine got the whole family out from the second story using the fire escape ladders, and seeing as how he put the duty belt on over his PJ's, waited for the dumbasses to come back out the back door.
> His 'Ol lady was around front with the shotgun.
> 
> The dipsticks called 911 and actually told dispatch that they broke in and some crazy guy and his wife were holding them hostage in the house...LOL!!!
> ...



Homeowners in California are advised to drag dead criminals completely inside before calling the police.

In Taxifornia, living and wounded criminals sue homeowners and then lie like rugs in court. 

*Dead criminals can't lie!*


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## Kilkenny (Jul 25, 2009)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> Homeowners in California are advised to drag dead criminals completely inside before calling the police.
> 
> In Taxifornia, living and wounded criminals sue homeowners and then lie like rugs in court.
> 
> *Dead criminals can't lie!*



I know what you mean. We don't have a Castle Doctrine either.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 26, 2009)

Kilkenny said:


> I know what you mean. We don't have a Castle Doctrine either.



Once home invaders are inside, Californians are free to shoot. Unlike Taxachussets, we don't have to retreat and hide in locked bedrooms or bathrooms. In Texas, homeowners are authorized to shoot prowlers in their front and back yards.

G-d help the victims when armed robbers, carjackers and home invaders belong to a "protected class".


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## sbhooper (Jul 26, 2009)

Your old Mossberg is all you need unless you just want an excuse to get another gun. Load it with bird shot-not buckshot. If some of the buckshot misses its mark, it can go through light walls and possibly damage something or someone else. If you shoot someone at close range with bird shot it is like a meat grinder but tests show that it will not penetrate the walls. It has lower recoil so that women and kids can handle it better too. 

When using a pump shotgun for home defense, leave the chamber empty with the slide released. The sound of the shell being racked has a stifling effect on an intruder. A guy came into my house last year and my kid was laying on the floor asleep. He grabbed my Browning pump that was standing there for that purpose and racked a shell. The guy was one step from being dead, but that sound sent him flying down our 1/4 -mile driveway. My kid could not catch him, but said he was whimpering like a little girl. 

Any gun will work as a home defense weapon, but I tend to agree with the cheaper guns due to things mentioned in an earlier post. The Saigas are getting a good reputation and are not real expensive. When deciding between the shotguns and rifles just ask one question. If I was a criminal, would I rather face a grandmother with a .38 or one with a shotgun? The shotgun is a no-brainer as a home defense weapon.


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## treeslayer (Jul 26, 2009)

clearance said:


> I was joking. Here all I got is my dogs and a couple of old time falling axes hanging on the wall. But, if I ever used one of them old axes on a burglar, I would go to jail. Maybe, if the guy was a total and provable scumbag, and I had some character witness lie for me, I could get out of it, maybe.



That's what shovels are for. 
what burglar? 

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Shaun Bowler (Jul 26, 2009)

Thanks sbhooper.:greenchainsaw:


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 26, 2009)

sbhooper said:


> Your old Mossberg is all you need unless you just want an excuse to get another gun. Load it with bird shot-not buckshot. If some of the buckshot misses its mark, it can go through light walls and possibly damage something or someone else. If you shoot someone at close range with bird shot it is like a meat grinder but tests show that it will not penetrate the walls. It has lower recoil so that women and kids can handle it better too.
> 
> When using a pump shotgun for home defense, leave the chamber empty with the slide released. The sound of the shell being racked has a stifling effect on an intruder. A guy came into my house last year and my kid was laying on the floor asleep. He grabbed my Browning pump that was standing there for that purpose and racked a shell. The guy was one step from being dead, but that sound sent him flying down our 1/4 -mile driveway. My kid could not catch him, but said he was whimpering like a little girl.
> 
> Any gun will work as a home defense weapon, but I tend to agree with the cheaper guns due to things mentioned in an earlier post. The Saigas are getting a good reputation and are not real expensive. When deciding between the shotguns and rifles just ask one question. If I was a criminal, would I rather face a grandmother with a .38 or one with a shotgun? The shotgun is a no-brainer as a home defense weapon.


:agree2:
The noise of the slide on a pump shotgun carries a long ways in the quiet of night. The big hole on the end of a 12ga shotgun scares home invaders far more than the tiny little hole of a handgun.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 27, 2009)

sbhooper said:


> Your old Mossberg is all you need unless you just want an excuse to get another gun. Load it with bird shot-not buckshot. If some of the buckshot misses its mark, it can go through light walls and possibly damage something or someone else. If you shoot someone at close range with bird shot it is like a meat grinder but tests show that it will not penetrate the walls. It has lower recoil so that women and kids can handle it better too.
> 
> When using a pump shotgun for home defense, leave the chamber empty with the slide released. The sound of the shell being racked has a stifling effect on an intruder. A guy came into my house last year and my kid was laying on the floor asleep. He grabbed my Browning pump that was standing there for that purpose and racked a shell. The guy was one step from being dead, but that sound sent him flying down our 1/4 -mile driveway. My kid could not catch him, but said he was whimpering like a little girl.
> 
> Any gun will work as a home defense weapon, but I tend to agree with the cheaper guns due to things mentioned in an earlier post. The Saigas are getting a good reputation and are not real expensive. When deciding between the shotguns and rifles just ask one question. If I was a criminal, would I rather face a grandmother with a .38 or one with a shotgun? The shotgun is a no-brainer as a home defense weapon.



The loud "ker-chunk" of a pump shotgun is a great deterrent in itself. About 2 a.m. in the mid 1960s, I heard suspicious rustling in the open grass field behind my back fence. I also heard someone whispering to someone else. I took a Browning Auto Five 12 gauge shotgun, opened my back window, cocked the bolt and then released it with a loud "ker-chunk". I heard rapid footsteps and then there was dead silence for the rest of the night.


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## Pruitt1222 (Jul 27, 2009)

Keep your shotgun, if its not up for the challenge a new entry tactical moss 500 or rem 270 well come in under 300 chips. 8 rounds of 00 buck shot should do the job well. I like to keep six in the tube with three of each slug/00 in the side saddle. Just think of your local laws first, 8 rounds of 00 is 64 to 120 counts of wanton endangerment if your in the wrong. Just remember to practice often.


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## sbhooper (Jul 27, 2009)

My kid bashed another intruder across the face with his model 1100 20 gauge one time also. He knocked the guy clear off the porch. It was 11 at night and he never even woke me up until 20 minutes later. I was pissed that he did not put him on the ground so that we could cuff him and wait for the sheriff. He said the guy was obviously drunk and it was a cold night. I don't think the guy's head felt too good the next day. 

He had enough sense not to shoot the guy outside the house. I have to make the decision now as the kid is now in the Army. I lost my guard dog!


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 27, 2009)

Pruitt1222 said:


> Keep your shotgun, if its not up for the challenge a new entry tactical moss 500 or rem 270 well come in under 300 chips. 8 rounds of 00 buck shot should do the job well. I like to keep six in the tube with three of each slug/00 in the side saddle. Just think of your local laws first, 8 rounds of 00 is 64 to 120 counts of wanton endangerment if your in the wrong. Just remember to practice often.


:agree2:
IMO, any shotgun that can make a loud "Ker-Chunk" is up to the challenge. I prefer #8 or #9 quail or dove shot myself. Quail or dove shot inflicts lots of pain with little risk of penetrating walls and injuring innocent bystanders.


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## Pruitt1222 (Jul 27, 2009)

I don't really live close to any one so no fear of that. As far as the lite shot I wouldn't do that here, If you shoot someone here and don't kill them you can be sued or jailed by them. I would perfer to shot through a wall or door then have the bad guy tell the cops he was on his way out if you get my drift.


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## Shaun Bowler (Jul 27, 2009)

I am leaning towards the POF 415.
Since I do have an old Mossberg 500. For the (unwelcome) close in contact.
I just might need something with a little more range.
Does anyone have a POF 415. My friend got one with the 6.8. I did not think that was a good idea because it is a new caliber. I would like the POF .308, but it is $1000.00 more that the 415. The 415 is @$1800.00.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 28, 2009)

Pruitt1222 said:


> I don't really live close to any one so no fear of that. As far as the lite shot I wouldn't do that here, If you shoot someone here and don't kill them you can be sued or jailed by them. I would perfer to shot through a wall or door then have the bad guy tell the cops he was on his way out if you get my drift.



Self-defense inside one's own home isn't like shooting clay pigeons 25-50 yards away at a target range. The average range for inside the house self-defense shots is going be 6-10 feet. Likely even closer. I doubt that a home invader can survive 1 ounce of lead from a 12 gauge at such close ranges.


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## Pruitt1222 (Jul 28, 2009)

Your probly right Jimmy but I don't really want to mess around, At most in my house its 35 feet. With a open barrel I still wouldn't have to much spred, It just goes back to a dead invader cant tell stories. I lean torwards 00 and slugs because I have 100 yards wide open all the way around my home. And well small shot doesn;t do it then. The POF 415 is a great rifle from every thing I have read, The 223 would be fine if all your doing is home protection. But on that note if its just home protection why not go for some thing like a 458 socom or 50 beowolf in a ar platform. My cousin has a ar in 50 beowolf and that thing is unreal. Not to mention cheaper.


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## sbhooper (Jul 28, 2009)

Pruitt, Light shot is no joke. At close range, I would rather deal with buckshot if you were shooting at me. I have shot lots of buckshot. I was law enforcement for 27 years. It packs a good punch, but you can take a pretty good charge of it. There is so much shot in a bird load that at close range it is absolutely like a meat grinder. No one will survive a close shot with bird shot and see the judge. 

There was a good test of these loads on the NRA defense show on the Outdoor Channel. It was an impressive test and they hands down recommended the bird shot over buckshot. Anything will work just fine, but for my money, the birdshot is the winner. 

My cousin stepped out on the porch one time to scare deer out of his garden with some #8 and stone cold killed a deer at a rather extended distance. Probably could not do it again in a million years, but it happened.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Jul 29, 2009)

*Psssst! You're not supposed to know this.*

Psssst! You're not supposed to know this. 

However there is a published report (suppressed by the criminal-coddling, liberal media) that says that the jailings or deaths of a few career-criminals can make huge reductions in the U.S. crime rate. 

This 1980s era report is based on a study sponsored by the Richmond Police Dept and several other local police depts. The study confirms that 99% of crime is committed by less than 1% of the U.S. population. 

In summary, a small handful of hard-core, repeat-offender career-criminals are committing most of the crime in the U.S.

This report is a stark contrast to the business-as-usual, fraud and deceit of the Marxist Media which falsely claims that every American is a criminal until proven innocent.

I believe this report is stored in the archives of the National Rifle Association.


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## gilraine (Aug 2, 2009)

sbhooper said:


> Your old Mossberg is all you need unless you just want an excuse to get another gun. Load it with bird shot-not buckshot. If some of the buckshot misses its mark, it can go through light walls and possibly damage something or someone else. If you shoot someone at close range with bird shot it is like a meat grinder but tests show that it will not penetrate the walls. It has lower recoil so that women and kids can handle it better too.
> 
> When using a pump shotgun for home defense, leave the chamber empty with the slide released. The sound of the shell being racked has a stifling effect on an intruder. A guy came into my house last year and my kid was laying on the floor asleep. He grabbed my Browning pump that was standing there for that purpose and racked a shell. The guy was one step from being dead, but that sound sent him flying down our 1/4 -mile driveway. My kid could not catch him, but said he was whimpering like a little girl.
> 
> Any gun will work as a home defense weapon, but I tend to agree with the cheaper guns due to things mentioned in an earlier post. The Saigas are getting a good reputation and are not real expensive. When deciding between the shotguns and rifles just ask one question. If I was a criminal, would I rather face a grandmother with a .38 or one with a shotgun? The shotgun is a no-brainer as a home defense weapon.



bird shot does not stop the attacker..you need the kinetic energy and penetration of buck shot to stop the attacker.. I was a first responder to a shooting of a home invader.. he was shot twice square in the chest from about 10 feet with a 12 gauge with birdshot.. the bad guy was awake and coherent, fairly minor injuries.. if you are worried about over penetration, use low recoil loads with #4 or #2 shot.. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm


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## chowdozer (Aug 9, 2009)

gilraine said:


> bird shot does not stop the attacker..you need the kinetic energy and penetration of buck shot to stop the attacker.. I was a first responder to a shooting of a home invader.. he was shot twice square in the chest from about 10 feet with a 12 gauge with birdshot.. the bad guy was awake and coherent, fairly minor injuries.. if you are worried about over penetration, use low recoil loads with #4 or #2 shot.. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm



The Army recommends #4


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## dingeryote (Aug 9, 2009)

chowdozer said:


> The Army recommends #4



Marion county(Indy) Indianna used to issue #4 Buck.
After a dozen or so uses in the field it was determined to be a failure unless base of the neck shots were made.

Shot flattens on impact lessening penetration substantially, and the "Electrics and hydraulics" which are the true target, were not getting disturbed enough to affect desired results if they were disturbed at all, on COM and peripheral shots. 

Good old 00 is still the winner.
Reduced recoil or "Tactical" 00 loads are even better penetrators.

If overpenetration is an issue, switch to a .223/5.56 carbine with appropriate ammo. #4 buck will penetrate several alyers of sheet rock.
5.56 55gr varmint based tac loads barely penetrate 2 as they fragment on the first layer. 

The Military use of the shotgun is much different than civillian and L.E. use.
It has a much wider scope of missions militarily and the #4's fit more uses than just flipping the off switch.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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