# Attn Treetx, knut hitch



## Matt Follett (Feb 21, 2003)

here it is


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## NickfromWI (Feb 21, 2003)

*Wow*

Thank's Matt-
I've been looking for a picture of that one for quite some time now! Some one showed it to me a year ago...I tried..had it mastered, then I got home that night and could remember nothing! 

I'll let you know how it goes!

love
nick


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## Matt Follett (Feb 21, 2003)

I guess I should add to this...
As mentioned in my conference post... this is a SELF advancing hitch, no need for the micro pulley as a fairlead, plus less concern with it setting then the sometimes scary VT (that woa,.... ..... oh, oh ,oh good! feeling before it catches), havent climbed in tree with it, will Monday


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## TREETX (Feb 21, 2003)

Thanks, that will give me something new to play with today.

Nathan


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## NickfromWI (Feb 21, 2003)

*Self Advancing*

That is exactly why I was fascinated by this knot. If I was ever stuck without a pulley...or needed the pulley for something else, I could turn to this knot as a way to still provide that one handed operation that we all love so much. A good think to have in your bag-o-trix.

love
nick


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## TREETX (Feb 21, 2003)

I heard the Howard hitch is self advancing


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## mikecross23 (Feb 21, 2003)

I'll probably try it no matter what, but I don't see how it doesn't need a slack tending pulley. It looks like a good hitch but how does it self advance when you pull the tail of the rope? 

-Mike-


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## Matt Follett (Feb 21, 2003)

as you pull the tail of your climbing rope it slacks off that lower bight of rope which then pushes against the coils, and releases the grip... along slides the knot

what is this howard hitch you speak of?


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## TREETX (Feb 21, 2003)

http://community-2.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots/

http://amazingforums.com/forum/XMAN/28.html

it is at the bottom.


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## Mahk (Feb 21, 2003)

Matt et al.

Just a word of caution.

I don't think that that is tied correctly. The last (bottom) turn should continue in a counter-clockwise direction, as the first four turns, rather than change and go clock-wise, . 

Knut taught me this knot some time ago. Since then I have seen at least two (now three) other people showing the 'Knut knot'. All of these are different from each other and different from what Knut had showed me. Still, the other two climbers liked climbing with the hitch they were tying and said that they had had good results with it. I haven't seen this version before so I don't know how it will work. 

Also be aware that, as with all of the so-called 'high performance' knots, this will respond differently depending on the length, type and diameter of both the climbing rope and the cord used to tie the hitch.

Mahk


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 21, 2003)

Just a side note- SailNet has the 8mm Sta-Set (white) on sale for 22¢ per foot and free shipping. The white has a strength rating of 4400# also, I just ordered another 100' since I seem to either burn up or give away an awful lot of it. Those 'parachute' exits out of the canopy tend to burn it up quickly!  
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=27014


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## hillbilly (Feb 22, 2003)

Another side note:
"Knut" is the Swedish word for knot !

Very cool hitch by the way, thanks for sharing it.
I'm beginning to find a setup for the
the V.T. that works really well though, but it's always
nice to know a few extra tricks.


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## TREETX (Feb 22, 2003)

The more knuts ya know the better!! I'm hanging with the vt now.

Thanks brian, got me 75 feet on the way!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 22, 2003)

Very interesting! Dr. X is really something else with that sight and all; i wish he would show up here more; been in chat a few times.

As pictured that would walk for sure i would think, but i gather that it is a 'closed' system? Kinda, think pic would help more if we defined that in it, just a suggestion as i always have thought this place should be a standard too for definitive naming and display knots for all the world. 

i get a fair amount (i think) of self tending on a 3down/1up distel on a lanyard, i'm wondering if this will be better there as well as climbing. Presently would favour same on life line, with a key-chain-karab (for one hand engagement), carried just below the friction hitch on the host, but supported on the termination of the other leg of the climbing system 'DdRT'. Very clean, gracefully simple knot by design it seems to me.

Mr.Mahk, you generally seem to have something to say of depth and so it is so; but a pic would be safer, more clear to pass on so i won't fall!!!!!!


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## murphy4trees (Feb 22, 2003)

*turmer twist*

Anyone ever hear of the "turner twist"?
It's a very simple addition to a VT type hitch that makes it self tending... very cool!!!

Big Jon showed it to me... he said it was invented by Jim Roach aka Roachy. Roachy named it after his hometown, Turnersville NJ.

That said, I'll give you guys some time to think on it... The name (twist not turner) and the concept demonstrated in the above knut pic should be enough for you to figure it out... 

So who'll get it first???
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## Mahk (Feb 23, 2003)

This is what Knut showed.

Sorry it took so long. I had to try a number of different camera settings and formats in order to find a combination that would post.. 

Tree Spider is right, this is a closed system. 

Mahk


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 23, 2003)

Daniel, nice to see you back, kinda helps the balance.......

Thanx for pic Mahk, that is some knot, wonder if MikeMaas or some one with similar passion and gear has tested it for slip/break tendenciess.

Hope noone minds i accidentally sent a few pics to a local guy that writes for The Knot Tyer's Guild (of England). i try to run some things by him here and there.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 23, 2003)

Now I can tell from the picture that Mahk posted how this hitch is self advancing. Looks to me like the lower wrap pushes the rest of the knot up the rope when you pull the tail of your climbing line.


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## Matt Follett (Feb 24, 2003)

I see the differences..., I wonder if my version hasn't changed along the story teller line, but as I study Mahk's photo... does it not seem as though there would be some very real burn danger to the one leg as it passes under the bottom coil, seems to me that would be the heat point, similar or worse then the blake, and possibly far worse consequences. (I guess this would only be in the extreme circumstance of the very fast decent, which if we knew the risk.... and so forth...)


Just my rambling thoughts


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Matt Follett _
> *... does it not seem as though there would be some very real burn danger to the one leg as it passes under the bottom coil, seems to me that would be the heat point, similar or worse then the blake, and possibly far worse consequences. (I guess this would only be in the extreme circumstance of the very fast decent, which if we knew the risk.... and so forth...)*


The hitch looks very similar to a Distel and I can tell you from experience that the main friction point on fast descents is the top loop. All my old tres cords are burnt through the top layer right at the center of the top loop. The bottom loop would not be in much contact with the climbing line on descents.


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## Matt Follett (Feb 24, 2003)

Yeah I tied it today as in Mahk's picture... and your right, once loaded, the friction is up on the coil... both ways seem somewhat similar in feel, and right now I'm playing with them as attachments for my lanyard, will actually climb with them tomorrow, and as such will have a better understanding (I've been 'under the weather' and stuck inside trying to recoupe... tying into the rafters of the shop..., and fixing gear


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## mikecross23 (Feb 24, 2003)

I just tied up a lanyard using the picture that Mahk posted. I've been using a prussik w/ steel snap. The knut hitch is a LOT lighter when tied w/ locking aluminum biner. I haven't loaded the knot yet but see how it could be handy. I'll probably get a micropulley for the one handed thing and try out a few different "advanced hitches for my lanyard. This knut hitch should be a great back up. Thanks for the lesson! 

Pictures  
I should probably mention that I havent used this set up so I have no personal experience of how well it works. But I will soon!


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## mikecross23 (Feb 24, 2003)

Side view. . .


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## mikecross23 (Feb 24, 2003)

My gurantee the knot will never come off the end. . .


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## mikecross23 (Feb 24, 2003)

I think that one handed adjustment will be harder without the tender pulley, but I did tie my hitch short. . .


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## mikecross23 (Feb 24, 2003)

Hangs nice and light by my side. I wish wire core lanyards were as flexible as my climbing line. . .


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## Matt Follett (Feb 25, 2003)

yeah mikecross23, I climbed with the Knut today on my lanyard, na, no need for the tending pulley, one hand slack up no problem, SMOOTH MAN!! love it large


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## murphy4trees (Feb 25, 2003)

I noticed Big Jon just joined AS... It's about time!!!
Maybe a case of cabin fever got him moving in our direction.. Anyhow... perhaps he'll get around to sharing the details on the "Turner Twist"...
ANd I was a little surprised no one took a shot at it.. I bet Tim would have gotten it.. Anyone heard from him lately?
Gid Bless,
Daniel


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## mikecross23 (Feb 25, 2003)

The tress cord I used from end to end was only 21" inches long so there is not much for long legs on the hitch. How long did you tie your's? I think it might open up better if I start w/ a longer piece of sta-set. Good to hear that you like it w/ out the pulley.

-Mike-


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 25, 2003)

If you are like me and have difficulty remembering lots of different knots, here's another easy fix if you forget (or drop) your tender pulley: Just run your line inside the carabiner in between the two legs of your tres cord and the bar of the 'biner will act like a knot tender. Just use your normal hitch (Distel, V.T., etc.).

The Knut hitch looks like it would work well but I'm almost certain I wouldn't remember it when I needed it.


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## NickfromWI (Feb 25, 2003)

*I do that!*

The trick 165 talked about is a good one. It's just too simple for some people to figure out! I use every once in a while. It's not as smooth as the other knots in this post (Knut, for example), or having that pulley, but is sure better than needing two hands to advance your hitch!

love
nick


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 26, 2003)

Brian,

You might try 4 rising turns (like in Blake's), bring top leg down on outside of 4th coil of bottom leg (as in Blake's). Take a small bight of the lower leg just past where the top crosses down pinched between 2 fingers, with the other hand continuse sending the lower leg around the host in the same direction as the other coils it was making, only let it grab the top leg laying down also on this turn too and slide the lower leg of the coil that you are bringing around through the bight in itself you are holding open pinched betwixt the 2 fingers(as to muenter around both the upper leg and host at the same time).

Really, 2 familiar moves and watching how you join them.

i reall like that simple trick their Bri, did i say that?


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## Mahk (Feb 26, 2003)

I usually cut my cords 51 - 52 inches long. I use a double fishermans on each end and sometimes vary the finished length of the cord by changing the length of the tail for the DF. 

The cord in the picture was an odd piece and is just a little bit longer than 52 inches. It is a clean piece of NER T-900. I used it for the picture because the white contrasted well with the orange of the Hi Vee. I used that cord yesterday and found that four wraps (as in the picture) was a little too loose on my climbing line (which is also relatively new and clean). I added a turn on top and the Knut worked as it had with four wraps with a shorter cord. This is just to reiterate that the length, type and diameter of both the cord and the climbing line can affect the performance of the hitch. It's important to try things low and slow and realize that you may have to add a turn or shorten the split tail.

The Knut can also be self-tending when you are climbing. Once you reach a certain height in the tree, the weight of the climbing line will pull slack through the knot. This can be very helpful when simply ascending, but it can also be a hindrance when working at or just below your TIP. The French prusik can do this also and it is sometimes such a nuisance that I tie a stopper knot above the hitch.

I tried to order some of the Sta Set from Sail Net, but when the site asked for payment I got a message that said that the security code was not valid and my payment information might be sent to or viewed by other recipients. Has anyone else had this message? Can I pay Sail Net with a check?

Just for comparison I visited West Marine to see their price for Sta Set. It was 89 cents a foot.

Mahk


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 26, 2003)

Mahk,
I have never seen that message at SailNet, but you can call them and order it over the phone also. I think they are in the middle of revamping some of the online ordering process, order tracking isn't available this week either. 

The Sta-Set has a much softer lay than the T-900 since the core is poly instead of that high-tech stuff. The double fisherman's knots tie tighter, so you need about an inch less than the T-900 for the same length finished cord.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm using stable braid (5/16) from Seatle Marine for around .40/ft delivered. I got a full roll.

jsut ordered a spool green 1/2 inch from them for under .70/ft (delivered). They cut it into 3 peices for me too.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 26, 2003)

For the time being, JPS, I think SailNet's 22¢ per foot for 8mm white Sta Set has that beat. Check them out, they have lots of different cords on sale right now and free shipping.


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## hillbilly (Feb 26, 2003)

Hmm... 22 cents per foot and free shipping. I just might try getting
a few feet delivered to my door in Sweden for free 
I gotta find something cheaper than my current all Dyneema
32-braid for 60 kr / m, equals $7/m.


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## d kraus (Mar 1, 2003)

This knut hitch is great! Thank you Mark and Matt for bringing it to the forum. And thank you Knut for coming up with it.

On the mikecross 23 pictures. one thing I like to do is attach the lanyard tail to my belt someplace, instead of the carabiner, then it acts as a backup in case the carabiner fails somehow. One drawback of that though, is it then makes a wider loop to catch on things.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 1, 2003)

In this particular case, Dan, I have to disagree. Part of what makes me an efficient climber is being able to trust my equipment 100%. If I need to create an obstacle by attaching the end of my lanyard to something other than the carabiner, it's time to throw the carabiner away and buy one I CAN trust 100%. 

I inspect my gear every time I use it, and every time I put it away. If it doesn't pass muster then I do not use it. If I use it, I trust my life on it without question. Bypassing a 'biner on my belt 'in case it fails' makes absolutely no sense to me. If it's on my belt, I must trust it 100%.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 1, 2003)

I used the knut hitch that I posted pics of on Wednesday and didn't like it much. Maybe it was just because I wasn't familiar w/ it. Put my hip prussik back on. I will sooner or later get another micro pulley and make a longer lanyard for my ideal pruning lanyard. I think for gaffing up spars the wire core flips much easier though. 

After I tied the knut a few times, I almost forgot how to tie the distel. Just another reason I'll probably leave that one alone.

-Mike-


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 11, 2003)

The leg of the tail you might leave in the karab on a Distel could start low single half hitch, then move to the upper 3 turns moving down. Then capture the free tail on the karab.

On the Knut, start with 1 tail on the karab, but start high on the host line and spiral 4 turns down, take the free standing tail, twist and muenter around the host under the 4 coils, grabbing the tethered tail in the muenter too, then caapteur that free tail on the karab.
 
What about using a 'quick link' (like an open chain link that you seal close by twisting a 1' long nut closed), that says not for lifeline use. Made a few lanyards with ones rated at 2200# with a 4/1 safety factor, twisted them close with wrenches. They are cheaper, smaller profile, and are narrower inside, just big enough for passing a 1/2" line through of the lanyard to make the attatchment device double as a knot tender. Some lil'innovation i am curretntly crediting to first seeing Bri refer to. The closer confines on the line, i think make the tending more positive. I've seen these things take plenty in loading situations industrially, and don't think it will come open if properly torqued down with wrench.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 19, 2003)

i've been climbing with knut for a few months now and like it in a 5/16"dbl.braid. Also have made several selftending lanyards for folks with it, that seem well recieved.

Something simpler about distel; keeps me thinking i will try it again for a while in this 5/16" to compare.

I was wondering if any of you other guys have switched back from knut, or if more have tried it.

It self tends very well, and is very interesting knot, worth a try.


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## ramanujan (May 20, 2003)

i've climbed for a while on both the knut hitch and a selftending VT similar to the turner twist bigjohn mentioned. 

i always come back to a regular VT with a micropulley tho, nothing can equal it for ease of slack advancement and control of descent.

i find that any friction hitch other than a VT will in some circumstances bind and become slower and more difficult to advance, requiring you to stop and work the knot loose.


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## Tim Gardner (May 20, 2003)

You can not beat the 4 & 3 vt unless you move to a mechanical hitch. I even get the vt to work with srt when I use the same type of rope as the host and use 3 wrap four braid.


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## geofore (May 20, 2003)

*NickfromWI*

If you have a little extra starter rope around tie the knots you like and put them in your tool box, that way they are there to look at when you need to rememmber.


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