# underbid jobs



## treeman82 (Apr 6, 2006)

When you guys realize that you have underbid a job, what do you do? I gave a price a few weeks ago for this one big oak over a building. I knew what it was worth, but after hearing the competition's price I went down considerably. After some careful thought and consulting with friends who knew the tree I called the customer back and said that I was sorry but I have to retract my bid and proceeded to give the appropriate one which should have been given in the first place. Don't care if I get the job or not, because the competition bid it at a price which one person called red cross pricing... AKA charity work. 

What if you get there in the morning to do the tree(s) and realize that you were WAY too low? Walk? Ask for more $?


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## preach it (Apr 7, 2006)

It happens to all of us that we underbid occasionally. 99.9 percent of the time I just suck it in and do it anyway, the underbid was my fault. But once in a great while I just can't do it at the price that I bid, and usually decline to do the job. Even at that point I will suggest some one who will do it for them for a good price, that I would trust.


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## tophopper (Apr 7, 2006)

treeman82 said:


> What if you get there in the morning to do the tree(s) and realize that you were WAY too low? Walk? Ask for more $?





You do the job for the price you agreed to do it for.




So you submitted a bid, then found out someone elses bid price, and you changed your bid, then retracted it?

Do you see anything wrong here?


Sounds pretty shady if you ask me.


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## Stumper (Apr 7, 2006)

Hoppy, Remember -this is Matt asking.


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## Koa Man (Apr 7, 2006)

If I bid it, I eat it.


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## treeman82 (Apr 7, 2006)

What happened was I was looking at the tree with the customer, I told him in these exact words "This is going to be some bucks" To which he replied that another guy, who had a bucket had bid $1,200. I then said that I didn't know if I could do it for $1,200 and said I would have to think about it. I went and did some math, and contacted the guy to say $1,600... good customer, but was at a real risk of losing money on the job. I had somebody else go look at it, and that person told me that my first instincts were right... $2,000+. I called up the customer and said that "I know I told you I would do it for $1,600 but I had somebody else look at it who has more experience than me, and after consulting with that person I feel that I can't do it for the $1,600 and you should probably get the other guy to do it for $1,200." He knew that I was really shaky on that price in the first place though.


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## Koa Man (Apr 7, 2006)

I would not consider that a real bid. A bid to me is when I actually give a person a signed proposal. If he accepts it by signing it, and I realize I bid too low, I take the loss. I have a signed contract and I will fulfill no matter what. There have been times when my groundman made 2 times the amount I did on a job. Fortunately, those times a very few and far far between.

I hate to give on the spot price quotes, unless it is something real simple. I like to go home and think about it, look at records of similar jobs and try to come up with a price that I think is fair to both. I usually tell people I will get back to them with a verbal quote within 24 hours, and if they accept the verbal, I will send them a written proposal. On the written proposal they have 10 days to accept or I can withdraw my offer. I have had people press me for an on the spot quote while looking at a difficult job and I give them a price range, like it will probably run between $$ and $$+ to do this job. Sometimes after I get home and do the math, my actual price is higher than the top range. I call and tell them after having had time to figure costs, my price is $$$ and they should go get other bids.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 7, 2006)

treeman82 said:


> it for the $1,600 and you should probably get the other guy to do it for $1,200." .


Sounds like you made a good move.


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## kennertree (Apr 7, 2006)

A good way to keep from losing on a job that you're not sure about is to quote them an hourly rate.


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## mikey (Apr 7, 2006)

If you gave a price,honor it.Do a good job and next time this customer or someone he knows needs tree work,you should be recommended.You will have a chance to recover from your low bid.


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## woodchux (Apr 7, 2006)

mikey said:


> If you gave a price,honor it.Do a good job and next time this customer or someone he knows needs tree work,you should be recommended.You will have a chance to recover from your low bid.




And being out there working , doing a good job, will get you many more jobs in that neighborhood.

I have worked for free and lost money on a couple of low bids i gave ,but my guys got paid.
That will teach you not to underbid VERY quickly.


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## jp hallman (Apr 8, 2006)

treeman82 said:


> ...I went and did some math, and contacted the guy to say $1,600...


You had the time to mull it over and dissect it and you still made the bid. Even though you tell us now you were not comfortable with your own bid. I think you wanted to pass on the job. Can't fold now and save face. You must suck it up and do your best on the job for what you bid, $1,600.00. 
Another life lesson learned, the hard way.
Don't smash the guy's building! Holy Pete!


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## jmack (Apr 8, 2006)

treeman82 said:


> When you guys realize that you have underbid a job, what do you do? I gave a price a few weeks ago for this one big oak over a building. I knew what it was worth, but after hearing the competition's price I went down considerably. After some careful thought and consulting with friends who knew the tree I called the customer back and said that I was sorry but I have to retract my bid and proceeded to give the appropriate one which should have been given in the first place. Don't care if I get the job or not, because the competition bid it at a price which one person called red cross pricing... AKA charity work.
> 
> What if you get there in the morning to do the tree(s) and realize that you were WAY too low? Walk? Ask for more $?


reach out to yer bros and tell wtf happened btw use da cell before you retract da bid , i'm listening


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## jmack (Apr 8, 2006)

tophopper said:


> You do the job for the price you agreed to do it for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 scenario, you want to remove tree you lower piece and realize the roots are comprimised you have blacktop land lighting and irrigation under tree if you continue you realize you will need a crane if not you walk,thoughts... comments questions... rude remarks?


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## rebelman (Apr 8, 2006)

If you notice a crack or uprooting while doing the job definitely stop and rebid it.


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## tophopper (Apr 8, 2006)

jmack said:


> scenario, you want to remove tree you lower piece and realize the roots are comprimised you have blacktop land lighting and irrigation under tree if you continue you realize you will need a crane if not you walk,thoughts... comments questions... rude remarks?




you should have noticed the compromised roots from the get go and all the obstacles as well. If you had actually assessed the tree when you bid it you would have bid it properly. 

You do get out of your truck when you write a bid yes?


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## woodchux (Apr 8, 2006)

I always walk up and put my hands on the trunk of the tree.
Up close you get a good idea of what you're in for.
Trees have a way of looking much smaller from across the yard.
And I always check the base of the tree for defects, yard lights etc...


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## Koa Man (Apr 8, 2006)

tophopper said:


> You do get out of your truck when you write a bid yes?



I usually like to just have them email me a picture. Real easy with all these camera phones now days.

Seriously, I don't like to give a bid unless I can actually walk up to the trunk and then look at the canopy. From that view, sometimes it is worse, sometimes better than you expected looking from outside the canopy. I also carry binoculars and a clinometer with me. Really helps when checking out suspect parts and determining height.


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## Trignog (Apr 8, 2006)

mikey said:


> If you gave a price,honor it.Do a good job and next time this customer or someone he knows needs tree work,you should be recommended.You will have a chance to recover from your low bid.




Good logic but that also comes with "You did my friends tree so cheap, why the high price for me?"

Take the good with the bad and don't be afraid to say no.


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## tophopper (Apr 8, 2006)

Koa Man said:


> I usually like to just have them email me a picture. Real easy with all these camera phones now days.
> 
> Seriously, I don't like to give a bid unless I can actually walk up to the trunk and then look at the canopy. From that view, sometimes it is worse, sometimes better than you expected looking from outside the canopy. I also carry binoculars and a clinometer with me. Really helps when checking out suspect parts and determining height.




Exactly!

I thought thats HOW you gave a bid. You walk the property, you look at accessability, you look from a distance, you look from under the canopy, you look for irrigation, you look for landscaping to work around , you look for overhead utilties, so on and so on. You look at everything.

You guys all make it seem as if you just glance at the tree and throw out a number. When I walk away from writing an estimate, I have every fine detail worked out, I know how the job will be carried out, I know approx. how long it'll take to get it down, and cleaned up, I know where the chip truck will be parked, I know what time the friggin mail man comes, I know what day is garbage day, I know if there will be a school bus dropping 20 kids in front of the work site and what time.

I really doubt you can get that from a picture, but hey if it works for you.


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## jmack (Apr 9, 2006)

tophopper said:


> you should have noticed the compromised roots from the get go and all the obstacles as well. If you had actually assessed the tree when you bid it you would have bid it properly.
> 
> You do get out of your truck when you write a bid yes?


lose the tude


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## Ryan Gossen (Apr 11, 2006)

The difference in these examples is that in the second, you get information you didnt have when you bid. In this case, its totally ethical to re-consider the price of your services. 

In the first cexample, you made a mistake. You can either live with it or ask someone else to accomodate it. As your client, I might let you revise that bid, but I would consider myself to have cut you some perhaps undeserved slack. Also, Id be thinking, "this guy screwed up the bid, what is he going to do to my trees?" Of course, this is guy already played you off annother bidder, so maybe quality is not his priority.

I dont mean to sound judgmental here, Ive done it myself, everyone has. I think if your reputation is a big deal to you, eat that bid. If your imediate finnancial situation is more important, let your reputation take the hit. Long term and short term interests are different here.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 11, 2006)

It takes several years and a lot of experience to price jobs correctly,if I mess up on a price these days [before I start the job] I either tell the customer the job needs to be more money ,or I don't do it ,it's that simple,if I realize i've messed the price during the the job,I just get on with it..


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## P_woozel (Apr 11, 2006)

I would really piss you guys off then. I have driven off jobs with the whole crew if they have been underbid to the point of no recovery. People make mistakes in bidding, there is no need to continue that chain of poor judgement by staying and doing the job. I call and explain to the arborist who did the bid and take the crew to the next gig on schedule. I've worked for several "experienced" arborists in this area who bid difficult jobs without ever leaving the customers deck. This leads to many tough jobs and sometimes they really blow a bid bad to the point that it dont matter who you got on your crew and what gear you have its not recoverable.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 11, 2006)

tophopper said:


> I thought thats HOW you gave a bid. You walk the property, you look at accessability, you look from a distance, you look from under the canopy, you look for irrigation, you look for landscaping to work around , you look for overhead utilties, so on and so on. You look at everything.
> 
> When I walk away from writing an estimate, I have every fine detail worked out, I know how the job will be carried out, I know approx. how long it'll take to get it down, and cleaned up, I know where the chip truck will be parked, I know what time the friggin mail man comes, I know what day is garbage day, I know if there will be a school bus dropping 20 kids in front of the work site and what time.




As a homeowner, this is what I expect when I ask for a bid. Come back and tell me you want more money, or walk off the job, and you'll be talking to my lawyer. Not to mention the bad press I'll make sure you get. Small town newspapers just LOVE press releases that are ready to print. 

You are a hack or a shyster, and either way you deserve to go down hard.


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## jmack (Apr 11, 2006)

P_woozel said:


> I would really piss you guys off then. I have driven off jobs with the whole crew if they have been underbid to the point of no recovery. People make mistakes in bidding, there is no need to continue that chain of poor judgement by staying and doing the job. I call and explain to the arborist who did the bid and take the crew to the next gig on schedule. I've worked for several "experienced" arborists in this area who bid difficult jobs without ever leaving the customers deck. This leads to many tough jobs and sometimes they really blow a bid bad to the point that it dont matter who you got on your crew and what gear you have its not recoverable.


yes brother


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## jmack (Apr 11, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> As a homeowner, this is what I expect when I ask for a bid. Come back and tell me you want more money, or walk off the job, and you'll be talking to my lawyer. Not to mention the bad press I'll make sure you get. Small town newspapers just LOVE press releases that are ready to print.
> 
> You are a hack or a shyster, and either way you deserve to go down hard.


please, constuction jobs with set budgets go over, bring yer lawyer, if its unsafe its unsafe, no one is gonna get hurt by press or lawyers


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## clearance (Apr 11, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> As a homeowner, this is what I expect when I ask for a bid. Come back and tell me you want more money, or walk off the job, and you'll be talking to my lawyer. Not to mention the bad press I'll make sure you get. Small town newspapers just LOVE press releases that are ready to print.
> 
> You are a hack or a shyster, and either way you deserve to go down hard.


Running to lawyers, what most Americans can't stand, over something so petty, note this everyone. I'll bet Mark is one of those mega-whiner customers where you think, I shoulda bailed on this loser, ever been there anyone? This kind of guy, "my drive way is cracked from your boom truck" (with grass growing through the cracks), "You scuffed my house, all the siding needs to be replaced" (siding from the 70s, already dented), and my all time favorite, "you said you would take the wood" even though on the quote is says firewood stays, run away, run away.


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## jmack (Apr 11, 2006)

clearance said:


> Running to lawyers, what most Americans can't stand, over something so petty, note this everyone. I'll bet Mark is one of those mega-whiner customers where you think, I shoulda bailed on this loser, ever been there anyone? This kind of guy, "my drive way is cracked from your boom truck" (with grass growing through the cracks), "You scuffed my house, all the siding needs to be replaced" (siding from the 70s, already dented), and my all time favorite, "you said you would take the wood" even though on the quote is says firewood stays, run away, run away.


 thank you from nyc, the capital o lawyers j


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 11, 2006)

jmack said:


> please, constuction jobs with set budgets go over, bring yer lawyer, if its unsafe its unsafe, no one is gonna get hurt by press or lawyers




THAT is one of the silliest statements I've seen on any site. 


Nobody gets hurt by press or lawyers?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 11, 2006)

clearance said:


> Running to lawyers, what most Americans can't stand, over something so petty,




Breach of contract is petty? You promise me something and then reneg, and that's petty to you?

I guess we know what YOUR word is worth. 





clearance said:


> I'll bet Mark is one of those mega-whiner customers where you think, I shoulda bailed on this loser, ever been there anyone? This kind of guy, "my drive way is cracked from your boom truck" (with grass growing through the cracks), "You scuffed my house, all the siding needs to be replaced" (siding from the 70s, already dented), and my all time favorite, "you said you would take the wood" even though on the quote is says firewood stays, run away, run away.



Clearance, you have the brains of a maggot and the morals of an alley cat. You are the kind that give business people a bad name. Come on to my property and make an honest mistake, and we'll work it out. Break your word, and you'll hang as high as I can pull you up.

And that's the right thing to do. Contractors who don't stand by their bids are on the same level as dishonest used car salesmen. If you don't know how to bid, that's YOUR problem. Go work for someone else who does.


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## tophopper (Apr 11, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Contractors who don't stand by their bids are on the same level as dishonest used car salesmen. If you don't know how to bid, that's YOUR problem. Go work for someone else who does.


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## clearance (Apr 12, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Breach of contract is petty? You promise me something and then reneg, and that's petty to you?
> 
> I guess we know what YOUR word is worth.
> 
> ...


Pretty easy to talk on the net, if I ever met you it would be worth it, even after the lawsuit that you would be sure to file against me.


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## clearance (Apr 12, 2006)

Mark, what do you do, for work? Are you a tree guy? Have you ever run a saw, a decent saw? Climbed a tree? Or do you just hang out here like some priest, lecturing away at the great unwashed, when your not checking out altar boys?


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## sawn_penn (Apr 12, 2006)

Someone requests a service, you provide a quote, sure you can withdraw the quote until they accept it. Until they accept it there is no contract.

ALL contracts should be made so they can be broken. I'm not saying that breaking a contract isn't serious, but there can be many unforseen circumstances.

If a party to the contract breaks the contract, then the other party can expect their resulting losses to be made good. If the tree is half down and left in a dangerous position, then the homeowner losses may include paying someone else to finish the work. If the tree hasn't been touched, and there is no other work held up as a result, then the homeowner losses are probably negligible.

I figure that contracts are broken from the homeowner side far more often than from the arborist side. Ever had anyone give you the OK to go ahead, and then cancel the work before you commence? I'm sure it happens all the time.

Open an honest communication is the most important thing if you need to back out of an agreement. If you forgot to price in (say) weekend penalty rates for workers, then say so. Try and work out a way to make everyone happy(ish.)

That's all the courts would want you to do.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 12, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Must be beer-thirty in the U.K.!
> 
> Either that or we've stumbled on another village idiot.




YOU AGAIN NOBBY NO MATES...


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 12, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> THAT is one of the silliest statements I've seen on any site.
> 
> 
> Nobody gets hurt by press or lawyers?




You'd be the one getting hurt ,if a fool like you took me to court,and i'm not joking!!!!!!!!!!! [see Tree c.o.c.k.s post I deleted my original post by accident ]

Tree-men are a funny breed,i'd steer clear of them if I were you..

Taking people to court ,going to the papers,your a bloody joke mate..


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## teressa green (Apr 12, 2006)

Go on Lee ,just say it how it is ,,,,,Methinks this is gonna get fruity ,,,,,,pretty true though ,court cases etc ,,,it aint happening ,,,,,must be a BRIT thing ,,,,,,


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 12, 2006)

teressa green said:


> Go on Lee ,just say it how it is ,,,,,Methinks this is gonna get fruity ,,,,,,pretty true though ,court cases etc ,,,it aint happening ,,,,,must be a BRIT thing ,,,,,,



I'd like to see the average home owner take a British tree surgeon to court ,or tittle tattle to the papers.... :hmm3grin2orange:  WHAT A LAUGH THAT WOULD BE..


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## computeruser (Apr 12, 2006)

sawn_penn said:


> Someone requests a service, you provide a quote, sure you can withdraw the quote until they accept it. Until they accept it there is no contract.
> 
> ALL contracts should be made so they can be broken. I'm not saying that breaking a contract isn't serious, but there can be many unforseen circumstances.
> 
> ...




Excellent post. At last, some clarity and reason.


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## clearance (Apr 12, 2006)

I love it, Mark and Treelo have angered even the Limeys, culls, the pair of them, but at least Treelo can climb. Mark, you gonna tell us what you do?


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## kennertree (Apr 12, 2006)

clearance said:


> I love it, Mark and Treelo have angered even the Limeys, culls, the pair of them, but at least Treelo can climb. Mark, you gonna tell us what you do?


Who cares what he does. I bet he doesnt put spurs on and spike everything he can.


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## clearance (Apr 12, 2006)

kennertree said:


> Who cares what he does. I bet he doesnt put spurs on and spike everything he can.


Why do you care what I do then? I ask cause the guy beaks off on all subjects, including treework, like he is the Pope, so I ask, what is it you do? Probably just a mouthpiece, weekend warrior type.


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## jmack (Apr 13, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> THAT is one of the silliest statements I've seen on any site.
> 
> 
> Nobody gets hurt by press or lawyers?


dont worry about it babe


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## rubberducky (Apr 13, 2006)

treeman82 said:


> When you guys realize that you have underbid a job, what do you do? I gave a price a few weeks ago for this one big oak over a building. I knew what it was worth, but after hearing the competition's price I went down considerably. After some careful thought and consulting with friends who knew the tree I called the customer back and said that I was sorry but I have to retract my bid and proceeded to give the appropriate one which should have been given in the first place. Don't care if I get the job or not, because the competition bid it at a price which one person called red cross pricing... AKA charity work.
> 
> What if you get there in the morning to do the tree(s) and realize that you were WAY too low? Walk? Ask for more $?



I'm sorry to say this but, you should stick to your word, that's the way life is.:bang:


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## Trinity Honoria (Apr 13, 2006)

clearance said:


> Why do you care what I do then? I ask cause the guy beaks off on all subjects, including treework, like he is the Pope, so I ask, what is it you do? Probably just a mouthpiece, weekend warrior type.



sometimes weekend warriors have better ethics then the hacks who work in a biz all week long...


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## P_woozel (Apr 13, 2006)

This post makes it very clear who one would want to work with. It would NOT be the like sof those who stick by the customer is right crap. Bids get messed up, customers break bids all the time. Its the nature of treework. Its stupid to do a job even after you realize there was a huge error in the amount of work/exposure. Who gets the brunt of this mistake? The crew, Always take care of your crew first. Sending them one an underbid job is WRONG. A good crew will still try to bust their asses to make target. People can get hurt. And often the estimator/owner are breathing down their necks to finish so the can get to the next one. Stop it, pull your heads out of your asses and focus.umpkin2:


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 13, 2006)

rubberducky said:


> I'm sorry to say this but, you should stick to your word, that's the way life is.:bang:



What like big corporation's and politicians do,wake-up this is a dog eat dog world..


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 13, 2006)

Trinity Honoria said:


> sometimes weekend warriors have better ethics then the hacks who work in a biz all week long...



What would you know about the runnings of a tree bizz??? ,going by your profile, you can't make a success out of any of your business ventures,hence you faffle with 2 businesses and still have an employed job,wow you must have a lot of hours in your day..


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## clearance (Apr 13, 2006)

Just to clarify what I am talking about, if a low bid is made and the tree service cancels the work, ok. If the customer agrees to any bid and then cancels, that is ok as well. Life goes on.


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## jmack (Apr 13, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Breach of contract is petty? You promise me something and then reneg, and that's petty to you?
> 
> I guess we know what YOUR word is worth.
> 
> ...


 mark are the names necessary, we know you own a home and this is a serious subject but if were going to get anywhere with hearing and understanding each other we got to cool out. im guilty of getting hot as well im guilty of it too, but alot you guys went wild on clearance with the personal attacks . treeman 5 pages ago got in over his head and he tried to reachout he got a beat down instead , if we are gonna discuss stuff we cant discourage questions, by trying to level the guy peace j


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## sawn_penn (Apr 13, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Contractors who don't stand by their bids are on the same level as dishonest used car salesmen.



Yes you should try and stand by your word. There are higher responsibilities though.

Let's use your "used car salesmen" analogy. Say someone is interested in a car you are selling, and you agree to sell for $5,000 as long as you fix a little annoying noise. The $5,000 price is agreed and everyone is happy. Now the mechanic says that the little noise is a big end bearing, and it will cost $2,000 to get fixed. You were only going to make $500 on the car in the first place.

So, what do you do? Do you ask the mechanic to perform a quick and dodgey fix to get rid of the noise for a little while? Do you ring the customer and discuss the situation openly? Or do you just take the $1,500 loss on the deal? (No holidays for your kids this year). If you decide to be open an honest about the car, and the buyer backs out of the deal, what do you do then? Do you tell the next potential buyer about the problem? Do you get the car fixed and try and sell it for $7,000? Or $6,500? Or less?

It is a complex world, and often keeping rigidly to "your word" can be an excuse for less than ethical behaviour.


Let's get back to an example related to trees. Say you agree to remove a seemingly solid tree in a homeowner's backyard for $1,000. Once you have started the work, you discover structural problems (cracks, rot, whatever) that were not apparent from the ground. It is now your professional opinion that further work on the tree without the right heavy equipment risks serious damage to the house. Because of the location of the tree (backyard) getting the right heavy equipment in requires the removal (and hence replacement) of a fence. It's now a $5,000 job.

Do you:

1. Give the tree removal your best shot without extra help? Maybe you'll get lucky and the house won't be damaged, but you will have exposed the homeowner to additional risk that they didn't agree to.

or

2. Discuss the situation with the homeowner, and then do the job properly at a higher price (maybe you get nothing for your time, maybe you charge $4,000?)

or

3. Something else entirely?

The world isn't simple, the world isn't black and white. Try and do the right thing by your customers. Try and do the right thing by your staff. Try and do the right thing by your family. Always standing by the letter of your word is too often an excuse for screwing other customers on other deals.


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## sawn_penn (Apr 13, 2006)

Maybe another way of looking at the problem is "What do you do if you overbid a job?"

Say you bid $5,000 on a job and the customer accepts. Once you do the work, you find that it was only really a $1,000 job.

What do you do? I figure that if you still charge the $5,000 you have less moral right to renegotiate the price on an underbid.

If you only charge $1,000 when you could have taken the full $5,000 then you have more moral right to renegotiate an underbid.


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## Bermie (Apr 13, 2006)

Thus endeth the lesson, two good posts.


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## Treeman14 (Apr 13, 2006)

sawn_penn said:


> Maybe another way of looking at the problem is "What do you do if you overbid a job?"
> 
> Say you bid $5,000 on a job and the customer accepts. Once you do the work, you find that it was only really a $1,000 job.
> 
> ...



Excellent post sawn penn. As was the one before this. I look at it this way, some jobs are overbid some are underbid, nobody gets it exactly right every time. They all work out in the end, so if you have to eat a job every so often, so be it.


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## Husky372 (Apr 13, 2006)

I have found this thread entertaining. Sawn_Penn you make some good points. But lets remember he quoted 1600 but after talking to someone else decided it was a 2,000 dollar job. To me that means it is going to take a little longer than he thought. Not the use of cranes or any such thing. I think in your second post yes re negotiations maybe necessary. But in his case I think it is more a lack of experiance and eagerness to get the job that he bid like he did. $400 is cheap life/business lesson. I personally would eat it (and have) just to keep my reputation where I want it.


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## treeman82 (Apr 13, 2006)

When I first saw the tree I said to myself $2,500. Was really shaky about saying $1,600. Had somebody else tell me that it was a $2,500 tree. Retracted my bid of $1,600 and told the guy to get the other contractor for $1,200. I've worked for this guy a bunch of times in the past, and will continue to work for him after this.


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## Oly's Stump (Apr 13, 2006)

I have had jobs where my help made more money then me. Unexpected problems caused more time which cost the boss money! On the other hand I have got jobs where the job was complete in a quarter of the alloted time.


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## A&Atree (Apr 13, 2006)

*As a crew leader*

as a crew leader even if i think that the sales rep has underbid the job drasticly that is not my problem nor my job to deal with it. My job is to get the work done as safely and as efficently as possible regardless of the price that has been worked out on the contract. People make mistakes and if you arrive at the job site with a negative attitude that will only make things worse for your self and crew, so bottom line "make it look easy and get the job donelike you always do"


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## Treeman14 (Apr 14, 2006)

A&Atree said:


> as a crew leader even if i think that the sales rep has underbid the job drasticly that is not my problem nor my job to deal with it. My job is to get the work done as safely and as efficently as possible regardless of the price that has been worked out on the contract. People make mistakes and if you arrive at the job site with a negative attitude that will only make things worse for your self and crew, so bottom line "make it look easy and get the job donelike you always do"



Well said, A&A! I was hoping someone would see it that way.


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## Jhelm (Apr 14, 2006)

*depends on circumstances*

It is fairly common for a certain type of self centered person to lie about other bids, I see or here friends do it somwwhat regularly. For instance bragging about how they got another $1,000 of the new car by sayig another dealer was that much lower. Sure car salesmen are not known for truth telling either but ..Circumstances matter, if market price for tree is 2k maybe 2.5k from the big name service and your customer twists you into 1600 on the basis of a 1200 competing quote from a guy with a Poulan Wildthing and no insurance I think you have a little lattitude. On the other hand if you are bigger outfit pricing at 2k and then wish for another 500after thinking about a bit longer then, well, you eat it and go on. Chances are if you are that larger outfit you have so much to bid and keep going you dont have time to rethink every bid and also the expieriance to not underbid in th e first place.


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## reachtreeservi (Apr 19, 2006)

I tell the customer I'll give them a bid within 24 hrs. I look at new jobs in the evening ,ask what the customer wants , then return and walk the job the next morning. Things sometimes look differant after 8 hrs. of sleep .At this time I write down the order of work ,Figure how much time it'll take , consider how dangerous it is , then come up with a price I can make money at. I call the customer that evening , and give them a price.Once I give them a price verbally , I stick to it.


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## pigwot (Apr 19, 2006)

When I was young I recall bidding against a few quotes homeowners "claimed" they'd received, and realized only later that I was giving away the skills and abilities I had brought to the table because I was anxious to get the work. After that I focused on what was the hourly rate I needed to make . Estimates were based on that figure (which included wages, taxes, liability, workman's comp, and unemployment insurance and state gross receipts tax, wear and tear on vehicles, saws, ropes, rigging, etcetera, AND, most importantly a target profit margin for hours spent in the field doing the work, doing the estimates, and at home at night entering data in the computer and doing the payroll and calling customers, wholesale suppliers...and on and on...). Did I underbid jobs: yes. Did I overbid jobs: yes...did they cancel one another? All-in-all I believe they did. I never walked away from a job, despite an off bid. I felt my name was more important. I did explain the predicament to the homeowner in a calm, rational manner, explaining the unforseen complication. Surprisingly more times than not the homeowner offered to increase the amount paid to meet me halfway. Commercial contracts were different, in that I did some work for condo associations, builders, and property managers. For them I gave a fixed hourly rate, usually 10 to 15% above the going rate, and billed the actual time of the jobs. Some days were better than others.
I do not now have a crew, sold my trucks, chipper, all but a set of tree gear and my stable of Huskys. With retirement comes the ability to do just what you want to do for neighbors, friends, and family. All the other high-risk, stressful stuff gets sent to all the great friends I've made in the tree business (age and climbing don't always mix well- enjoy your youth!).
The two things I would advise is that:
1. you know your cost structure, and make sure you are making enough to pay your help well, insure their health and well being, and put enough away for your retirement, and 
2. Be Safe, (a young fellow, whose pruning skill I was just admiring a few months earlier fell to his death, leaving a wife and children and doubtless many satisfied customers and good friends behind). 
Sorry to be so longwinded, another risk of retirement is lots of time on your hands...


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## Ax-man (Apr 19, 2006)

EXCELLENT POST, I couldn't agree more especially the health and retirement comment. Now how do we get everyone on the same page like you have just desribed that are actively employed in this business. 

Larry


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