# What knot to use.



## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

From a previous thread there were some discussions about knots being used. I respect the experience shown there but as a "newbie", I may have become aware of some of the limitations to that beloved Bowline knot and wanted to share those. 
One, it is not a cinching knot as required by current standards. The carabiner can move around and runs the risk of getting sideways or being unlocked.
Second, it can unroll after being loaded and unloaded. I have actually seen the knot do this. 

But it is a great knot. 

Below is a great video from ISA, notice that the audio is dubbed over to reflect current new standards. 

[video=youtube;Bilfe5GZrP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bilfe5GZrP8&feature=plcp[/video]


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

*I'm getting a stiffy*

I'm getting a stiffy, 10" to be exact. (free with the wrench) It should arrive today with my new Rope Wrench and I am looking forward to setting it up. It should be a little different than my ZK-1 and I am wondering what knot will work best. 
Any suggestions? Of course I know it depends on the type of split tail you use and climbing line but I'm looking for input. I will try it with a hitch climber pulley and a fixed plate pulley to see what works best with the given length. 








By the way, what the heck is this knot? Looks like half a VT with a misplaced braid. I suspect it was set up by a sales clerk in the store but I don't think I want to come down a rope with that thing. Photo below from Wesspur.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Del_ said:


> This stuff should be posted in the 'Arborist 101' forum.



Fair enough... just didn't see it as a real beginner subject. So if some of you advanced users are still using the bowline to tie in, come on over to the 101 site.


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## rskybiz (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> I'm getting a stiffy, 10" to be exact. (free with the wrench) It should arrive today with my new Rope Wrench and I am looking forward to setting it up. It should be a little different than my ZK-1 and I am wondering what knot will work best.
> Any suggestions? Of course I know it depends on the type of split tail you use and climbing line but I'm looking for input. I will try it with a hitch climber pulley and a fixed plate pulley to see what works best with the given length.
> 
> 
> ...


Coopers hitch


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## Youngbuck20 (Sep 28, 2012)

I wasnt aware you were using it as a termination knot. I would not use it for a termination knot. Archor knot or double figure 8 are both good termination knots. Bowline works much better for almost any other application. PS most questions and ideas are best suited for Arborist 101. If you post this kinda stuff in the commercial forum they get all whiney. Its more of a braging rights kinda place.


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> If you post this kinda stuff in the commercial forum they get all whiney. Its more of a braging rights kinda place.



Wrong. Most of the guys in Commercial know what they're doing and they're not shy about calling somebody out for posting bogus information or techniques. They'll do the same thing in 101...and they should.

I don't see a lot of whining in Commercial and if there's any bragging going on it's usually justified.

Listen to _what_ they say, not how they say it.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> I wasnt aware you were using it as a termination knot. I would not use it for a termination knot. Archor knot or double figure 8 are both good termination knots. Bowline works much better for almost any other application. PS most questions and ideas are best suited for Arborist 101. If you post this kinda stuff in the commercial forum they get all whiney. Its more of a braging rights kinda place.



I almost agree. 
I don't use it as a termination knot, it was another post that I was responding to. 


treeclimber101 said:


> Actually I do use a bowline on my bridge spacer , cause I am fat lol ! I used a bowline on the bight.....it's a great all around knot that is easy to learn easy to tie and barely ever spits out what's its tied too ! It was the first knot I was taught !



I use an anchor knot or a double fisherman depending on which way I want the rope to exit. Both are considered the required cinching knot. Don't think the figure 8 is considered a cinching knot. But I do agree, the Bowline is a king. 
Here is a modified bowline I like, kind of a sheet bend modification too but more like a bowline. It would be a bowline if the tail I was using was the same rope. 
I find it great when I want another rope up the tree. 






View attachment 254600


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Wrong. Most of the guys in Commercial know what they're doing and they're not shy about calling somebody out for posting bogus information or techniques. They'll do the same thing in 101...and they should.
> 
> I don't see a lot of whining in Commercial and if there's any bragging going on it's usually justified.
> 
> Listen to _what_ they say, not how they say it.



Ahhhhhhhhh...........stop your whining!!!!!! It's ALL good and mostly fun wherever the heck you want to put it.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 28, 2012)

This is how i roll....err climb keep it simple

YouTube - Blake's Hitch


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> ....PS most questions and ideas are best suited for Arborist 101. If you post this kinda stuff in the commercial forum they get all whiney. Its more of a braging rights kinda place.



Right you are, pretty wise for a "youngbuck"


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh...........stop your whining!!!!!! It's ALL good and mostly fun wherever the heck you want to put it.



opcorn:


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> This is how i roll....err climb keep it simple
> 
> YouTube - Blake's Hitch



I'm having trouble with this link, I have seen the Blake's Hitch video, but I really wanted to watch that one on the worlds largest log splitter, I'll do a little search, it looks interesting. 
Can't get much more simple that the Blake's hitch and with nothing more than a rope and saddle you are climbing trees, well almost, a carabiner is very useful.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> I'm having trouble with this link, I have seen the Blake's Hitch video, but I really wanted to watch that one on the worlds largest log splitter, I'll do a little search, it looks interesting.
> Can't get much more simple that the Blake's hitch and with nothing more than a rope and saddle you are climbing trees, well almost, a carabiner is very useful.



I use a split tail though, its easier to unclip if i need to double crotch or come down for some reason i just unclip and walk away and clip back in.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Wrong. Most of the guys in Commercial know what they're doing and they're not shy about calling somebody out for posting bogus information or techniques. They'll do the same thing in 101...and they should.
> 
> I don't see a lot of whining in Commercial and if there's any bragging going on it's usually justified.
> 
> Listen to _what_ they say, not how they say it.



Definition of COMMERCIAL
1
a (1) : occupied with or engaged in commerce or work intended for commerce <a commercial artist> (2) : of or relating to commerce <commercial regulations> (3) : characteristic of commerce <commercial weights> (4) : suitable, adequate, or prepared for commerce <found oil in commercial quantities>
b (1) : being of an average or inferior quality <commercial oxalic acid> <show-quality versus commercial cattle> (2) : producing artistic work of low standards for quick market success
2
a : viewed with regard to profit <a commercial success>
b : designed for a large market
3
: emphasizing skills and subjects useful in business <a commercial school> 

*New:
Definition of COMMERCIAL
1. not occupied with or engaged in "bogus information or techniques" 

*

Got it, now how about some great knot talk on the 101 site.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

*What knot to use and what not to use.*

Anybody know if you can change the title to the thread? I should have called it "What knot to use and what not to use". 

So far.........use the bowline to...


treeclimber101 said:


> .... help my bucket outta sugar sand ,


...but not as a termination to the saddle. 

Still waiting for my new Rope Wrench to arrive, damn they are slow when you are standing around waiting.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Anybody know if you can change the title to the thread? I should have called it "What knot to use and what not to use".
> 
> So far.........use the bowline to...
> 
> ...



Double fisherman on a biner to connect the saddle. What works for someone might not work for you so explore and try different stuff.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> I use a split tail though, its easier to unclip if i need to double crotch or come down for some reason i just unclip and walk away and clip back in.



eye to eye split tail or split tail to like a Blake's hitch? 

I do the same with my 80' motion lanyard and I mostly use two Blake's hitch's on split tails.


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> eye to eye split tail or split tail to like a Blake's hitch?
> 
> I do the same with my 80' motion lanyard and I mostly use two Blake's hitch's on split tails.



Split tail to blakes. 1/2" piece of rope with an eye at one end.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Double fisherman on a biner to connect the saddle. What works for someone might not work for you so explore and try different stuff.



Exactly. I really like the double fisherman's because it is so easy to tie and then insert the carabiner into the loop, also the rope exits upward and away from the system. That way it stays clear of my eye to eye split tail or single eye split tail and out of the way. 
If I am not using a split tail, I use an anchor knot that exits horizontally to the running end of my line for the Blake's hitch.
You are right, I am exploring and trying different stuff. I'm still to new to be stuck in my old ways.
Thanks


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## newsawtooth (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Exactly. I really like the double fisherman's because it is so easy to tie and then insert the carabiner into the loop, also the rope exits upward and away from the system. That way it stays clear of my eye to eye split tail or single eye split tail and out of the way.
> If I am not using a split tail, I use an anchor knot that exits horizontally to the running end of my line for the Blake's hitch.
> You are right, I am exploring and trying different stuff. I'm still to new to be stuck in my old ways.
> Thanks



If you are ordering a Wrench, you won't need to worry about any of that anymore.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> View attachment 254600



I call it "modified" because it is actually a bowline that becomes a sheetbend, almost, with the exception of the direction of the running end of the tail.
Let me explain how I use this. I have an HTP kernmantle rope that I used to ascend into the tree. Once in the tree I use a double braid Poison Ivy or similar to work around the tree or go to adjacent trees.
So, to get it all where I want them....(both ropes because I'm lazy and don't want to ascend with the other rope attached to my saddle.) 
I connect the end of my kernmantle rope to my throw line either using a pile hitch followed by half hitches or a splicing knot followed by half hitches. I pull the line up until it just comes over my TIP. Then I use this knot ("modified" sheetbend) to tie on my Poison Ivy. Now both ropes are headed up and my throw line is coming down. I continue pulling my throw line down until the end of my kernmantle reaches me, (the Poison Ivy has just reached my TIP, but has not been pulled over yet) I tie an Alpine butterfly on the ascending side of my kernmantle, untie my trow line, thread the descending end of the kernmantle into the butterfly and send the butterfly up to the TIP. As the butterfly goes up, the end of my Poison Ivy comes down. As the butterfly reaches the TIP and becomes secure, the end of my poison ivy comes down and is now over the anchor waiting for when I need it. 
I ascend the kernmantle, clip in and switch over to my "motion lanyard" Poison Ivy rope or similar and go where I want.

Below is a sheetbend (actually, slippery sheetbend but same thing) but notice the upward direction of the tail. 
The picture below that is the same sheetbend that starts to pull apart as the weight of the tail or running end of the rope starts to pull on it. Also it has no chance of getting over my TIP without coming apart.
That is what I perceive as the difference between a true sheetbend and the bowline that becomes a sheetbend. So it is really a sheetbend with the tail exiting in the wrong direction. 

unmodified sheetbend





unmodified sheetbend that comes apart with the weight of the running end of rope.






View attachment 254641
View attachment 254642


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Del_ said:


> A quick hitch is great for pulling up a second rope. This is from Jeff Jepson's 'Tree Climbers Companion'.



While you have it open, take a look at page 66 in the TCC, see anything interesting with those knots?


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## Youngbuck20 (Sep 28, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Wrong. Most of the guys in Commercial know what they're doing and they're not shy about calling somebody out for posting bogus information or techniques.


So the video that he posted from the ISA is "bogus information or techniques"? Every other new post in commercial forum has someone saying this should be in 101 with those 101 idiots. Sounds like whining to me.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> If you are ordering a Wrench, you won't need to worry about any of that anymore.



I wish that were the case, I am not monkey enough just to go walking up a 45 degree branch or transfer to another tree and will use my motion lanyard (with knots) to pull me up there.


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

Youngbuck20 said:


> So the video that he posted from the ISA is "bogus information or techniques"? Every other new post in commercial forum has someone saying this should be in 101 with those 101 idiots. Sounds like whining to me.



Not exactly, I think the ISA information is fantastic, it was just the link that was posted. It comes from his own personal mobile YouTube link and therefor does not parse as a successful link for general users. I could probably search YouTube for the content, but I got the point. Besides it was a post on this 101 site so there is no need to be accurate, knowledgeable, macho, beyond reproach or even centered around commercialism, whatever that is. (I use to know until I was educated on the "commercial" forum. 



other member Tree said:


> This is how i roll....err climb keep it simple
> YouTube - Blake's Hitch


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## smokey01 (Sep 28, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> This is how i roll....err climb keep it simple
> 
> YouTube - Blake's Hitch



Ok, thanks for the reference, here is a link that should work and I have to share it because THAT IS THE COOLEST LOG SPLITTER. I want one for my Bobcat!! I said a while back, "for every method there is a better way, for every tool there is a better one"..........I stand corrected, NOBODY WILL EVER INVENT A BETTER LOG SPLITTER THAT THIS!

[video=youtube;Be_ZVY0LOh0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be_ZVY0LOh0&feature=player_detailpage[/video]


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## Zale (Sep 28, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> eye to eye split tail or split tail to like a Blake's hitch?
> 
> I do the same with my 80' motion lanyard and I mostly use two Blake's hitch's on split tails.



What is a "80' motion lanyard"?


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

Zale said:


> *What is a "80' motion lanyard"?*



It is a foot longer than a 79' motion lanyard. (could not help myself)








Like this but I use cinching knots at the carabiners. 
I copied this from one of their PDF files and imposed their logo on it to give them the credit they deserve. 






Here is an example from the Sherrill Tree catalog referred to as the "M technique" 









View attachment 254738


View attachment 254734


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## Zale (Sep 29, 2012)

How often do you use that system? If I need to double crotch, I'll just use the tail of my rope.


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## Blakesmaster (Sep 29, 2012)

Zale said:


> How often do you use that system? If I need to double crotch, I'll just use the tail of my rope.



I think you're missing the point, Zale. It's not about doing something that makes sense, it's about figuring out a way to use as many pieces of equipment in the tree as humanly possible. When you master that you can start to rename simple things like a split tail and climbline into cool, super awesome motion lanyards! Then you'll achieve master treeclimber status.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 29, 2012)

As I lurk and read , I find there are some who embellish there technique tossing out names and types hoping that they appear to have a clue about something ! I am to simple it's obvious to me now , the next time I climb a tree I am bringing up the entire 2012 fall rigging catalog pages 1 through 14 in case I encounter a jeep wrangler hanging in the tree that needs to be removed :msp_smile: or the stray stranded sky diver or the occasional honey badger I am tired of not being prepared


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 29, 2012)

@Blakes and 101, LOL, AWESOME!

Don't over complicate something very simple. K.I.S.S


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 29, 2012)

Some guys carry enough metal up there to build a refrigerator and enough rope to rerig a medium size sail boat , its a problem for me when there's 1/4 mile of rope in a 80 ft tree ! Just climb it and take it down not weave a woobie inside of it with all your hanging lines and three points crotchs at some point its a lottery for the ground on which line to hold !:msp_w00t:


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 29, 2012)

I know right (my kids say that all the time) I think the manufacturers are always trying to re-invent the wheel. Paint it cool colors and market it to the gear junkies. There are so many different set ups out there now, that do the same exact thing as the next one. I think a new guy getting into this could get overwhelmed with choices. Some of this stuff is pretty damn pricey as well.
Don't get me wrong, I like my toys, but some of this stuff is redundant, just a new look to the same old thing. I couldn't stand having all that gear in my face, getting caught on everything as I move thru a tree.


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> As I lurk and read , I find there are some who embellish there technique tossing out names and types hoping that they appear to have a clue about something ! I am to simple it's obvious to me now , the next time I climb a tree I am bringing up the entire 2012 fall rigging catalog pages 1 through 14 in case I encounter a jeep wrangler hanging in the tree that needs to be removed :msp_smile: or the stray stranded sky diver or the occasional honey badger I am tired of not being prepared



This is the 101 site, it is for those that want to share what they learn, what they use, what they see out there. To try different styles, equipment, and techniques. Personally I am new at this (climbing on ropes) and I am ok with that. I don't need to prove anything to anyone and especially some of you guys that want to pick at every comment that is not your own or somehow feel their "macho" is challenged. This is not my day job, I do it part time and for fun. In the past most of my tree work was without rope using a 5/8 inch chain, my Bobcat with a backhoe attachment, digging around the stump and pushing the damn thing over, cutting it up for the wood yard and taking the rest to a mulching company for grinding in my dump trailer. I don't even own a chipper. So don't you worry, I won't be talking about all the cool things and added attachments you can put on your chipper. There is no need for me to "embellish" anything, there is nothing to benefit here from doing that. I have not and will not say I have done something or know something that I do not or have not done. I tend to be passionate about whatever I do and I will read, study and participate in anything that helps me master that passion. True, I need my F350 to carry all of the gear I have purchased, but for me I am enjoying every minute of it. If you want to laugh at a guy jingling like a sleigh ride as he walks to the tree, enjoy that, but let me enjoy my sleigh ride. I want to learn and try all of it........but that is me and that is what works for me, obviously not for you. 
I know most of you could climb on a 120' piece of rope and a carabiner, foot locking up the tree and then swing from branch to branch and tree to tree. That is impressive, I give you that but then what are you going to discuss, what are you going to share? Probably not much but even then I am sure you could find something to bicker about and make personal attacks hiding behind the anonymity provided by the internet. 
So, what is an 80' motion lanyard. It is what I have used and what I have leaned from the folks at Cornell and it is something I haul into the tree at times. By the way, hauling all that #*%# into the tree is great exercise and part of the great benefit of climbing. 
So, now let me go play with my Stiffy and new Singing Tree rope wrench ZK-2 that arrived yesterday to replace the ZK-1 that I have. Then we can talk about all the cool knots that are available and how you can use them, but it won't be very interesting to you if you only use a Bowline and a Timber hitch with your one rope and carabiner but that is ok because that is you. 

My day job.........
[video=youtube;KfbJyb2vyOk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfbJyb2vyOk[/video]


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

....
So, now let me go play with my Stiffy and new Singing Tree rope wrench ZK-2 that arrived yesterday ....

Then I will go relax in one of my really cool chairs for the afternoon. 

P.S. You guys all rock........but give all the "macho" a rest. I'm learning a lot from you guys, but don't let it hurt you if you learn a little from a newbie. (That really hurt didn't it) Oh, and yes, I carry a magic marker into the tree and put my "richard was here date" on a bright piece of survey marking tape, just for fun) 










View attachment 254759














View attachment 254751
View attachment 254752
View attachment 254753
View attachment 254754


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

*What knot to use and what not to use.*



rskybiz said:


> Coopers hitch



So is that a "mini" coppers hitch? 
Ok, I have never read about or seen a Coopers Hitch, for real?? Tell me more or are you hoping I will try it?


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 29, 2012)

Teach me to fly a 747 and i will teach you to climb like a squirrel:msp_biggrin:


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

sgreanbeans said:


> I know right (my kids say that all the time) I think the manufacturers are always trying to re-invent the wheel. Paint it cool colors and market it to the gear junkies.......



Well, it's us "gear junkies" buying all the stuff from the above sponsors that then pays this site that makes all this available to you.........you are welcome. 
By the way, this new Rope Wrench and Stiffy is SO COOL, if you don't have one you are really missing out. :msp_biggrin:


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Teach me to fly a 747 and i will teach you to climb like a squirrel:msp_biggrin:



Ok, but you are going to have to climb like a really really really fast squirrel to pay for the aircraft rental and fuel to put in it.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 29, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> This is the 101 site, it is for those that want to share what they learn, what they use, what they see out there. To try different styles, equipment, and techniques. Personally I am new at this (climbing on ropes) and I am ok with that. I don't need to prove anything to anyone and especially some of you guys that want to pick at every comment that is not your own or somehow feel their "macho" is challenged. This is not my day job, I do it part time and for fun. In the past most of my tree work was without rope using a 5/8 inch chain, my Bobcat with a backhoe attachment, digging around the stump and pushing the damn thing over, cutting it up for the wood yard and taking the rest to a mulching company for grinding in my dump trailer. I don't even own a chipper. So don't you worry, I won't be talking about all the cool things and added attachments you can put on your chipper. There is no need for me to "embellish" anything, there is nothing to benefit here from doing that. I have not and will not say I have done something or know something that I do not or have not done. I tend to be passionate about whatever I do and I will read, study and participate in anything that helps me master that passion. True, I need my F350 to carry all of the gear I have purchased, but for me I am enjoying every minute of it. If you want to laugh at a guy jingling like a sleigh ride as he walks to the tree, enjoy that, but let me enjoy my sleigh ride. I want to learn and try all of it........but that is me and that is what works for me, obviously not for you.
> I know most of you could climb on a 120' piece of rope and a carabiner, foot locking up the tree and then swing from branch to branch and tree to tree. That is impressive, I give you that but then what are you going to discuss, what are you going to share? Probably not much but even then I am sure you could find something to bicker about and make personal attacks hiding behind the anonymity provided by the internet.
> So, what is an 80' motion lanyard. It is what I have used and what I have leaned from the folks at Cornell and it is something I haul into the tree at times. By the way, hauling all that #*%# into the tree is great exercise and part of the great benefit of climbing.
> So, now let me go play with my Stiffy and new Singing Tree rope wrench ZK-2 that arrived yesterday to replace the ZK-1 that I have. Then we can talk about all the cool knots that are available and how you can use them, but it won't be very interesting to you if you only use a Bowline and a Timber hitch with your one rope and carabiner but that is ok because that is you.
> ...



Oh settle down Howard Hughes I was teasing , I thought you were just some drunk hillbilly with that rope saw thread ! But now I realize that your more then that , your a pilot with a heavy murse needing to lighten it up on every tree apparatus made . Soooooooo carry on riding a tree sleigh or drinking a beer on a totem pole ! BTW that was an awful landing I would have surely spilled my Bloody Mary and been pissed !


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## Gologit (Sep 29, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Teach me to fly a 747 and i will teach you to climb like a squirrel:msp_biggrin:



You don't really _fly_ a 747...you just push the right buttons in the right sequence, say the right things on the radio, and try not to break anything expensive. :msp_biggrin:

Come on out here...I'll teach you to fly a Stearman. That's real flying. And you don't have to wear a necktie and one of those goofy looking hats, either.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 29, 2012)

Oh boy we may have to start a thread about flying to contain the tree squirrel when he reads that LOL


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## Zale (Sep 29, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> This is the 101 site, it is for those that want to share what they learn, what they use, what they see out there. To try different styles, equipment, and techniques. Personally I am new at this (climbing on ropes) and I am ok with that. I don't need to prove anything to anyone and especially some of you guys that want to pick at every comment that is not your own or somehow feel their "macho" is challenged. This is not my day job, I do it part time and for fun. In the past most of my tree work was without rope using a 5/8 inch chain, my Bobcat with a backhoe attachment, digging around the stump and pushing the damn thing over, cutting it up for the wood yard and taking the rest to a mulching company for grinding in my dump trailer. I don't even own a chipper. So don't you worry, I won't be talking about all the cool things and added attachments you can put on your chipper. There is no need for me to "embellish" anything, there is nothing to benefit here from doing that. I have not and will not say I have done something or know something that I do not or have not done. I tend to be passionate about whatever I do and I will read, study and participate in anything that helps me master that passion. True, I need my F350 to carry all of the gear I have purchased, but for me I am enjoying every minute of it. If you want to laugh at a guy jingling like a sleigh ride as he walks to the tree, enjoy that, but let me enjoy my sleigh ride. I want to learn and try all of it........but that is me and that is what works for me, obviously not for you.
> I know most of you could climb on a 120' piece of rope and a carabiner, foot locking up the tree and then swing from branch to branch and tree to tree. That is impressive, I give you that but then what are you going to discuss, what are you going to share? Probably not much but even then I am sure you could find something to bicker about and make personal attacks hiding behind the anonymity provided by the internet.
> So, what is an 80' motion lanyard. It is what I have used and what I have leaned from the folks at Cornell and it is something I haul into the tree at times. By the way, hauling all that #*%# into the tree is great exercise and part of the great benefit of climbing.
> So, now let me go play with my Stiffy and new Singing Tree rope wrench ZK-2 that arrived yesterday to replace the ZK-1 that I have. Then we can talk about all the cool knots that are available and how you can use them, but it won't be very interesting to you if you only use a Bowline and a Timber hitch with your one rope and carabiner but that is ok because that is you.
> ...




As a recovering "gear junky", I now find the simpler the better. Its a expensive addiction to feed. I'm not knocking you. If you did this type of work full time, you might look at it differently. 

You also might want to inspect the base of your "pole chair". I wouldn't sit in that thing unless I was tied into another tree. Stay safe.


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

Gologit said:


> You don't really _fly_ a 747...you just push the right buttons in the right sequence, say the right things on the radio, and try not to break anything expensive. :msp_biggrin:
> 
> Come on out here...I'll teach you to fly a Stearman. That's real flying. And you don't have to wear a necktie and one of those goofy looking hats, either.



Seriously, I'm all over learning to fly a Stearman. I use to teach aerobatics in a Bellanca Decathlon and flew a Taylorcraft on floats up and down the rivers in Portland Oregon, went OVER one bridge, all the rest of the 13+ hours was spend going UNDER and I loved it. Had to hand prop it standing on the floats as it had no electric starter. You are right, that is some real flying. Would love to see pics and hear about your Stearman. 
Actually, I am currently flying 767ER and after 34 years of doing it still love it enough that I hand fly everything to cruise altitude and from top of descent to landing. 
BTW, I don't wear that goofy looking hat because they are so goofy looking, would you please come explain that to our management!!!

So, to stay on subject, what knots do you use to tie down your Stearman! Maybe a Tautline Hitch to snug up the tie downs?


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## smokey01 (Sep 29, 2012)

Zale said:


> As a recovering "gear junky", I now find the simpler the better. Its a expensive addiction to feed. I'm not knocking you. If you did this type of work full time, you might look at it differently.
> 
> You also might want to inspect the base of your "pole chair". I wouldn't sit in that thing unless I was tied into another tree. Stay safe.



Thanks for the suggestion, I stripped all of the bark off so I could inspect it well and it is difficult to see in the picture, but the tree to the right is my anchor and I have a line high in that tree as my safety. In fact I access my chair in two ways, one is to practice with my spurs going straight up the pole to my chair with a safety line on the adjacent tree, all the time tending the slack. Or I rope up the other tree and pull myself over to the chair. Just for practice I go up the pole, un-clipping from my lanyard and swinging out as if the pole (dead tree) were to fail. I started at a foot above the ground and continued practicing foot by foot until I now swing out and away from the top. Good practice to be able to un-clip that lanyard in a rush, I might add. Maybe it will help me with the real deal one day. I always learned that those things have to come from muscle memory and instinct as you will never have time or composure to figure it out at the moment. You may notice that the tree to the right that I tie into is also leaning to the right a little. For this I have a rigged line, very high in the tree that goes off to the left at about a 45 degree angle for support and anti sway. I use an In-Line Figure 8 to tighten that rigging line down to another tree and give it a moderate amount of pull to again control any sway from the tree. That line is anchored just slightly above my TIP for my safety line but not high enough past it to add further stress to the tree. 

Thanks for the suggestion, and others are appreciated.
I think I need to carve something fancy on my pole though.


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## smokey01 (Oct 2, 2012)

Del_ said:


> That is a sheet bend.
> 
> It's not a modified bowline or a sheet bend modification.
> 
> ...



There is the difference, I'm not tying the "ends" so it is not a sheet bend. This is tied on the the running rope. A true sheet bend is tied on a bight, a bowline is tied on a loop with the same piece of rope. Here we have a bowline tied on a loop with a separate rope. 
I think the whole diferance that I'm talking about is that I'm using this inline and not at the end line. 
Does that make sense?


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## 2treeornot2tree (Oct 2, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> There is the difference, I'm not tying the "ends" so it is not a sheet bend. This is tied on the the running rope. A true sheet bend is tied on a bight, a bowline is tied on a loop with the same piece of rope. Here we have a bowline tied on a loop with a separate rope.
> I think the whole diferance that I'm talking about is that I'm using this inline and not at the end line.
> Does that make sense?



Maybe the discription of the knot in the book, was writen before it gain popularity as being used as a midline knot. Its the same knot. Sometimes you just have to use common sense.


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## smokey01 (Oct 2, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Maybe the discription of the knot in the book, was writen before it gain popularity as being used as a midline knot. Its the same knot. Sometimes you just have to use common sense.



So you use it a lot? When and what conditions?


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## smokey01 (Oct 2, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Maybe the discription of the knot in the book, was writen before it gain popularity as being used as a midline knot. Its the same knot. Sometimes you just have to use common sense.



So think about this, it is tied differently and used differently; tied on a loop not on a bight and midline not end line. Sounds like you just came up with a new name for a great knot. It's a Midline Sheet Bend. Well done! Do you like it?


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## 2treeornot2tree (Oct 2, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> So think about this, it is tied differently and used differently; tied on a loop not on a bight and midline not end line. Sounds like you just came up with a new name for a great knot. It's a Midline Sheet Bend. Well done! Do you like it?



Its a sheet bend no matter where you tie it. If it makes you happier to say midline sheet bend then so be it. I use it to alot when i have to haul a rigging line up to a climber using the tail of his climb line. Also works great when hoisting up rigging blocks too. I just put the sling on the block, thread the rigging line threw the block and tie a stoppper knot. Then i tie the sling onto the climb line with a sheet bend.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Its a sheet bend no matter where you tie it. If it makes you happier to say midline sheet bend then so be it. I use it to alot when i have to haul a rigging line up to a climber using the tail of his climb line. Also works great when hoisting ……


So that what I'm wondering about. Say you have a climber that has reached his TIP 50 feet DdRT. He has a 150 climbing line so there is 100 feet of line laying on the ground. I suspect if you told him to tie your block and sling with a sheet bend he would find the end and tie it on. Now you have to pull 100 feet of line before you get to the real 50 feet to get your sling. 
If you said tie it on with a midline sheetbend you would save yourself pulling that 100 extra feet for nothing. 
I hear communication is really important with a crew for safety and efficiency and this may be one example.


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## 2treeornot2tree (Oct 3, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> So that what I'm wondering about. Say you have a climber that has reached his TIP 50 feet DdRT. He has a 150 climbing line so there is 100 feet of line laying on the ground. I suspect if you told him to tie your block and sling with a sheet bend he would find the end and tie it on. Now you have to pull 100 feet of line before you get to the real 50 feet to get your sling.
> If you said tie it on with a midline sheetbend you would save yourself pulling that 100 extra feet for nothing.
> I hear communication is really important with a crew for safety and efficiency and this may be one example.



If they were that dum, they most likely wouldn't be working for me after that day. Your just like "AA"


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> If they were that dum, they most likely wouldn't be working for me after that day. Your just like "AA"



I was just thinking all yur guys a sharp.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> I was just thinking all yur guys a sharp.



But remember, I'm in the 101 club here ok. And I'm not the only one reading 101 threads.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> ……Your just like "AA"



No, I'm an original.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> If they were that dum, they most likely wouldn't be working for me after that day. Your just like "AA"



You mean they're not that "dumb"? Hey don't get all pissed off because I'm not a spelling bee expert either, And I think we have to be able to laugh at ourselves, But you just really cracked me up on That one.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> If they were that dum, they most likely wouldn't be working for me after that day. Your just like "AA"



And don't get me wrong because I can do dumb things just like the next guy. And excuse the pun but I'm trying to learn the ropes here. And as a new guy if someone asked me to tie a sheetbend I would look for the end of the rope. If you asked me to try something with a Clovehitch I would go for the midline.


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## newsawtooth (Oct 3, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> No, I'm an original.



That is exactly what he said.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> That is exactly what he said.




:msp_unsure:

"that's what she said"


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

*What knot to use and what not to use. What I used with my new Rope Wrench.*



smokey01 said:


> Now if you excuse me, I have my Poison Ivy anchored to a white oak with an Alpine Butterfly and I need the exercise and stress management after all these postings.





2treeornot2tree said:


> Pics or it didnt happen



I am not posting this to prove that I have accomplished anything, but I do like the idea of pictures so that I can get help on doing it better and perhaps others can learn from any mistakes I make. 
I am not an instructor, I am a newbie with about 3 months rope climbing experience. I read a lot, I study a lot but lack experience. Any suggestions, comments, advise or questions I pose are from my level of knowledge and my limited amount of experience. It is not instruction of any kind. I am posting this here because I am at my 101 level 

So first off I used my Big Shot to get my anchor about 65 feet on the main stem. I tie the throw bag on my throw line with a cow hitch and half hitch. I find that to be secure and easy to release. After isolating the anchor I tied my 150' Poison Ivy to the throw line with a pile hitch and a few half hitches. Pulled the line up and secured my single line with an Alpine Butterfly. 
I tried several hitches, low and slow, and felt the Distel worked best. I like it also because is is very easy to check visually if you think of a backwards Schwabisch. I have found that the Valdotain Tresse takes too much space on my Rope Wrench. 

Wrench with 10" stiffy and Distel hitch. 
The stiffy does a great job of keeping the wrench from binding on the pulley. 
I also use my lanyard over my back with a micro pulley to use one handedly to tend the slack and keep the wrench at chest level. I find this more comfortable than a

```

```
 bungee cord around my neck or for that matter even a High Limb Chain Saw. 

I will attach videos in my next post so you can all make fun of the old chubby guy getting up the tree. 




























View attachment 255367
View attachment 255368
View attachment 255369
View attachment 255370
View attachment 255371


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

*Distel hitch with Rope Wrench*

Climb without foot loop.

Sorry, but I had to set my iPhone on the chair to make the recordings myself. 

Short climb without foot loop. Lanyard used in place of neck bungee, pantin right foot, hand ascender with 1' webbing to harness for back-up. Once at top, I check the distel hitch and set it, I step out of the pantin, disconnect the hand ascender and descend with the rope wrench using a distel hitch. 
[video=youtube;PbeK-2as0Ng]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbeK-2as0Ng&feature=channel&list=UL[/video]


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

*Knots used for SRT rope wrench.*

This is a longer climb using the foot loop. I had to climb to the TIP to redirect the running end of my climbing line to follow the working end as I had moved it out of the way while I was practicing. I did this to ease the recovery of my climbing line. 

[video=youtube;uMy6eanTbPE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy6eanTbPE&feature=channel&list=UL[/video]


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## Zale (Oct 3, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> This is a longer climb using the foot loop. I had to climb to the TIP to redirect the running end of my climbing line to follow the working end as I had moved it out of the way while I was practicing. I did this to ease the recovery of my climbing line.
> 
> [video=youtube;uMy6eanTbPE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy6eanTbPE&feature=channel&list=UL[/video]



What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Learning how to climb with 50lbs of gear on? It looks like you've got all the shiny toys and you seem to be able to use them. If your goal is to climb around trees and sit in chairs, it looks like you are competent to do that.

Personally, I climb very light. All that stuff hanging on your saddle tends to wear on the hips. If you really want to be "one with the tree", go old school. Rope, saddle and a climbing snap. Its a better work out and much easier on the wallet.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Zale said:


> What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Learning how to climb with 50lbs of gear on? It looks like you've got all the shiny toys and you seem to be able to use them. If your goal is to climb around trees and sit in chairs, it looks like you are competent to do that.
> 
> Personally, I climb very light. All that stuff hanging on your saddle tends to wear on the hips. If you really want to be "one with the tree", go old school. Rope, saddle and a climbing snap. Its a better work out and much easier on the wallet.



Very good question....when I was a kid growing up in Oregon I climbed with nothing, (not like the clothing optional guy on this site mind you), but just hands and feet up every fir tree (and others) I could find. To get to the lowest set of limbs on the 150' foot trees I would climb the small ones next to it, pull as many of the branches together as possible and head across. We once made a 4:1 pulley with some hardware, 2x4 and a length of rope. 
So it was fun then and it is fun now. If I make a few bucks along the way that is ok too, but the goal, the "what are you trying to accomplish"........as much as I can. My friend, I have no idea what your age is but life goes quickly and to me every day needs to be spent "accomplishing" something and enjoying everything. Those two things go hand in hand. 
So, for me, more climbing, whatever that is for enjoyment. Maybe with some practice I can work my way down to a footlock and a carabiner. I have always done what I wanted and if it was called work by someone else, ok. 
You arborist have a great job outdoors, physical, challenging, and money making. 
My next goal, keep learning to climb, get the ISA certification and whatever else...........
Oh, and one more thing, my wallet is lighter, does that count?


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 3, 2012)

Dang thats a lot of gear lol. I start out with a few biners,slings or loop runners,my Silky,and once i tie in i have my 201T sent up and everything else stays on the ground, if i need it i have it sent up i hate feeling "bulky" moving around.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Dang thats a lot of gear lol. I start out with a few biners,slings or loop runners,my Silky,and once i tie in i have my 201T sent up and everything else stays on the ground, if i need it i have it sent up i hate feeling "bulky" moving around.



That's cuz you are a PRO!


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

*My next climbing line*

[video=youtube;DBHt14YmJdM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBHt14YmJdM[/video]


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## Gologit (Oct 3, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> My next goal, keep learning to climb, get the ISA certification and whatever else...........



"Whatever else" entails quite a bit. Tree ID, diseases, pruning, cabling, types of cuts, rigging down big pieces, crane work, machinery care, being able to direct the groundies to keep them safe and productive, handling a saw, bidding...

That's probably a very small part of it but those are the ones I see the most of.

I'm not an arborist, just a logger, but I know enough about their work to admire what they do and to be aware of how complex a job it really is. I also tend to listen when they talk about things I don't know anything about.

You seem intent on increasing your skills...and that's good. But maybe one of the skills you need to develop is _listening_ when some of these guys try to help you. Just because what they tell you doesn't agree with your pre-conceived notions of what's correct doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Arguing with them doesn't help you at all. People who would normally help you will just ignore you if their help isn't appreciated. You can learn a lot here. Just about anything you want to learn is available to you here. But...if you continue to define what you're learning in your own terms and to your own satisfaction and completely disregard the help you've been offered...well, you might as well buy yourself some books and lots more fancy gear...and hope for the best.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Arguing with them doesn't help you at all. People who would normally help you will just ignore you if their help isn't appreciated. You can learn a lot here. Just about anything you want to learn is available to you here. But...if you continue to define what you're learning in your own terms and to your own satisfaction and completely disregard the help you've been offered...well, you might as well buy yourself some books and lots more fancy gear...and hope for the best.



Point well taken. But.............no just kidding, very good point and thanks.


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## smokey01 (Oct 3, 2012)

2treeornot2tree said:


> Its a sheet bend no matter where you tie it. If it makes you happier to say midline sheet bend then so be it. I use it to alot when i have to haul a rigging line up to a climber using the tail of his climb line. Also works great when hoisting up rigging blocks too. I just put the sling on the block, thread the rigging line threw the block and tie a stoppper knot. Then i tie the sling onto the climb line with a sheet bend.



Been practicing with the knot today and getting used to it being in the middle of things. 
Thanks, I'm ready to haul up that monkey fist now I think.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 3, 2012)

Try this tomorrow ! Take you lanyard loop it around the tree and hook into it with your single or double rope set high lean backwards and walk up the tree , advance your knot and repeat , your lanyard should be set so your legs are almost straight when your walking up the trunk , don't step above your lanyard because if you slip your ass will slam against the tree and maybe your head as well , then all that crap your carry can be tossed I the garage and can be reduced to a sling #### throw ball climbing line and saddle ! That's it you want to keep the lanyard no higher then your shoulders basically your walking the trunk vertically it's much easier less complex and a hell of a lot faster for me anyway


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 3, 2012)

The guy seems to need a lot of attention.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 3, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> The guy seems to need a lot of attention.
> Jeff



He is a pilot that wants to be a tree worker , I wonder if he can fly a plane if he gets hurt falling off that rickety ass tree chair he's Got Jerry rigged up


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## Zale (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm a pro climber but just bought a 747. Any tips on starting my own airline?


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 3, 2012)

Zale said:


> I'm a pro climber but just bought a 747. Any tips on starting my own airline?



I read some good stuff on-line about flying. I don't have the money to be an owner, but I could be your 'Operation's Manager'.
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 3, 2012)

Zale said:


> I'm a pro climber but just bought a 747. Any tips on starting my own airline?


Fake it til ya make it that's all !


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## Gologit (Oct 3, 2012)

Zale said:


> I'm a pro climber but just bought a 747. Any tips on starting my own airline?



That's easy...just buy lots of brand new, and mostly useless, equipment. Make sure everybody sees it. 

When they've seen what you have, well, just go buy more. And more.

If anybody gives you advice, ignore them. They're obviously not as cool as you are with all your equipment.

And if anybody tells you that you're running your airline the wrong way..just keep doing what you're doing. I mean, how hard could it be? :msp_rolleyes:


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Try this tomorrow ! Take you lanyard loop it around the tree and hook into it with your single or double rope set high lean backwards and walk up the tree , advance your knot and repeat , your lanyard should be set so your legs are almost straight when your walking up the trunk , don't step above your lanyard because if you slip your ass will slam against the tree and maybe your head as well , then all that crap your carry can be tossed I the garage and can be reduced to a sling #### throw ball climbing line and saddle ! That's it you want to keep the lanyard no higher then your shoulders basically your walking the trunk vertically it's much easier less complex and a hell of a lot faster for me anyway



Thanks Uncle Buck, I'll send pics.

Look at that, I'm a senior member now. Thanks for the hep.


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

Gologit said:


> That's easy...just buy lots of brand new, and mostly useless, equipment. Make sure everybody sees it.
> 
> When they've seen what you have, well, just go buy more. And more.
> 
> ...



Nothing compared to all the trucks, chippers and the millions of dollars you guys have in equipment. Guess the opinion here is that whatever it is, it's too much. I was kind of hoping for some comments about what is used and what others like, but don't think that's going to happen. 
No problem, thanks anyway.


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## newsawtooth (Oct 4, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Thanks Uncle Buck, I'll send pics.
> 
> Look at that, I'm a senior member now. Thanks for the hep.



This place has never been confused with a meritocracy.

I use the wrench and over the shoulder lanyard technique like you demonstrated. On short ascents under 50' try just a foot ascender and then go hand over hand. For me, the hand ascender just gets in the way. Not enough room above the wrench and where my short arms can reach.


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> This place has never been confused with a meritocracy.
> 
> I use the wrench and over the shoulder lanyard technique like you demonstrated. On short ascents under 50' try just a foot ascender and then go hand over hand. For me, the hand ascender just gets in the way. Not enough room above the wrench and where my short arms can reach.



I'll give that a try, I do find the more I climb the easier it gets with less equipment but I have a long way to go. Seems that without the hand ascender more attention could be or would be paid to the friction hitch as well, good idea. What about a back up connection to your climbing line or do you feel that the wrench and foot ascender are enough? Did you ever try the neck bungee? The lanyard seemed to be reasonable because you have that with you anyway. Do you use a hitch climber pulley? I really like how that stiffy pushes the wrench up the climbing line and keeps it out of the way of my hitch. 
I do appreciate the suggestions.


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## newsawtooth (Oct 4, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> I'll give that a try, I do find the more I climb the easier it gets with less equipment but I have a long way to go. Seems that without the hand ascender more attention could be or would be paid to the friction hitch as well, good idea. What about a back up connection to your climbing line or do you feel that the wrench and foot ascender are enough? Did you ever try the neck bungee? The lanyard seemed to be reasonable because you have that with you anyway. Do you use a hitch climber pulley? I really like how that stiffy pushes the wrench up the climbing line and keeps it out of the way of my hitch.
> I do appreciate the suggestions.



As far as a backup connection to the climbing line, the wrench and hitch are enough for me. Some redundancy couldn't hurt, but I work off a wrench and hitch so see little need to add another connection just for ascending. The foot ascender creates most of the progress while the wrench and hitch just capture it; so it ( foot ascender) really can't be considered a safe connection. I went straight to the over the shoulder lanyard as you noted, because I have it with me anyway. I'm using a hitch climber because I was using them with Ddrt and like the extra rigging points. I attach the over the shoulder lanyard to the hitch climber, the wrench is then just along for the ride. I'll probably get a pinto or fixe when I order the newest incarnation of the wrench. The inventor prefers the fixe. The stiff tethers are a good improvement, especially for ascending or tending slack. Shiny side up.


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

newsawtooth said:


> As far as a backup connection to the climbing line, the wrench and hitch are enough for me. Some redundancy couldn't hurt, but I work off a wrench and hitch so see little need to add another connection just for ascending. The foot ascender creates most of the progress while the wrench and hitch just capture it; so it ( foot ascender) really can't be considered a safe connection. I went straight to the over the shoulder lanyard as you noted, because I have it with me anyway. I'm using a hitch climber because I was using them with Ddrt and like the extra rigging points. I attach the over the shoulder lanyard to the hitch climber, the wrench is then just along for the ride. I'll probably get a pinto or fixe when I order the newest incarnation of the wrench. The inventor prefers the fixe. The stiff tethers are a good improvement, especially for ascending or tending slack. Shiny side up.



I understand what you say about working with the wrench and so why have the extra just for ascent. That would probably be like putting a prusik above your descent device for a back up as well. Maybe too much redundancy can cause problems too. 
I agree with you, the stiff tethers are a huge improvement. 
I think this 10" Stiffy is a great idea and probably a better upgrade then the new wrench itself. In fact if I had that first, I may not have upgraded to the new wrench. I give the Stiffy 80% of the benefit of that upgrade. I have it set up with an inexpensive fixed plate pulley as it mostly just tends the slack. This saves a hitch climber pulley and a carabiner depending on how you have it set up. I tried the 7" CMI lanyard but that did not work as well and also required an extra carabiner with the hitch climber pulley. In fact a person could probably just wrap clear duct tape or something to that effect around the tether and get the same effect. Just would not look as cool. 
Attached video with the Stiffy, it just makes it all move so much better. I find the length perfect as well. 

[video=youtube;4k4Deos7WVE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k4Deos7WVE[/video]


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## Customcuts (Oct 4, 2012)

*[SUP][/SUP]


smokey01 said:



Well, it's us "gear junkies" buying all the stuff

Click to expand...

*


smokey01 said:


> [SUP][/SUP]
> 
> 
> smokey01 said:
> ...


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## Customcuts (Oct 4, 2012)

*Nevermind,*

Nevermind, I just saw the video u posted... DOH!!


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

View attachment 255487


Customcuts said:


> [SUP][/SUP]
> 
> Are u using the new stiff tether with a biner or do u hook it inline with your hitchcord eyes? Mine from wesspur will be here today and I'm going to try clipping it between the sideplates of my isc micro pulley then the eyes of my hitchcord on the outside of the sideplates with 1 biner going thru it all and hooking that biner to my saddle...... I'll post a pic after I get it setup. Just curious on how others are incorporating the stiff tether into the system...



This is my set up, climbed on it yesterday and will climb with it today. Use a Distel and my lanyard over my shoulder to keep it above waist level. The Stiffy concept is the biggest improvement to the whole system.


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> Nevermind, I just saw the video u posted... DOH!!



No problem, I had the picture from a prior post anyway.


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## Customcuts (Oct 4, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> View attachment 255487
> 
> 
> This is my set up, climbed on it yesterday and will climb with it today. Use a Distel and my lanyard over my shoulder to keep it above waist level. The Stiffy concept is the biggest improvement to the whole system.



Exactly how I'm planning on using it, is that 30" beeline ?


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> Exactly how I'm planning on using it, is that 30" beeline ?



Good to know, maybe I've got it right if that is what your planning.
It is a 26" 10mm Bee-Liine on a 11.7 mm Poison Ivy. I tried first with my kernmantle but I did not have the confidence that the hitch would engage EVERY TIME. I am liking that Poison Ivy though because you can use it for both SRT and DdRT. The HTP Static Kernmantle came with my climbing kit that I first bought so I want to keep using it, but I'll figure that out later.


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## Customcuts (Oct 4, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Good to know, maybe I've got it right if that is what your planning.
> It is a 26" 10mm Bee-Liine on a 11.7 mm Poison Ivy. I tried first with my kernmantle but I did not have the confidence that the hitch would engage EVERY TIME. I am liking that Poison Ivy though because you can use it for both SRT and DdRT. The HTP Static Kernmantle came with my climbing kit that I first bought so I want to keep using it, but I'll figure that out later.



I'll be climbing with safety blue (white) to start. Not sure how that's going to go though? I might just get some P.I too. I like the looks of it. And I'm going to get some armor prus for friction cord. Just piecing my gear together bit by bit. Chit can get expensive fast. My friction cords are 30" I'm thinking they will be too long... Crap!


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> I'll be climbing with safety blue (white) to start. Not sure how that's going to go though? I might just get some P.I too. I like the looks of it. And I'm going to get some armor prus for friction cord. Just piecing my gear together bit by bit. Chit can get expensive fast. My friction cords are 30" I'm thinking they will be too long... Crap!



I got the 26 inch at the trade show in Portland Oregon after talking with Joe Harris about it, but at the time I was trying to make the 7" CMI lanyard work. You may be alright with the longer cord as the Safety Blue is 12.7mm or 1/2 inch as apposed to 11.7 for the Poison Ivy so you probably need it a little longer. I have some of the Safety Blue and it does feel bigger but also a little slicker as I think it is a Poly/Blend and the Poison Ivy is Polyester. The other thing is that the Blue Steak is 16 strand and I was told at the last conference I went to that it can have some problems with toothed ascendents, they said not to use it but I don't see why not if you are a little more careful and know to watch out for that. The 16 strand gets all of it's strength from the outside so that is important, I think the double braid shares the inside and outside for strength. Hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but we talked about that at a Vermeer training day a few weeks ago here. 
Maybe that will work out perfect with the armor prusik, I don't know anything about that except that I think I saw that advertised somewhere a while back and it seemed like a premium cord with high temp characteristics, but not sure.


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## smokey01 (Oct 4, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> [SUP][/SUP]
> 
> Are u using the new stiff tether with a biner or do u hook it inline with your hitchcord eyes? Mine from wesspur will be here today and I'm going to try clipping it between the sideplates of my isc micro pulley then the eyes of my hitchcord on the outside of the sideplates with 1 biner going thru it all and hooking that biner to my saddle...... I'll post a pic after I get it setup. Just curious on how others are incorporating the stiff tether into the system...



How did it go? I would love to see how you set it up. There is a new thread for the ZR-2 and I put some video there. I'm pretty happy with the way it works for me. Would appreciate any suggestions or observations you may have. 
Thanks


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## Customcuts (Oct 6, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> How did it go? I would love to see how you set it up. There is a new thread for the ZR-2 and I put some video there. I'm pretty happy with the way it works for me. Would appreciate any suggestions or observations you may have.
> Thanks




I will be ordering a static climbline Monday, climbing srt on safety blue is like trying to climb a rubber band....:bang: but I am definitely happy with the new wrench works really good. I made a small lanyard that goes from a loop on the back of my harness to the tether on the RW to advance it as I climb. I made it out of 2 small non locking binders and a small piece of accessory cord. Descent is awesome, REALLY AWESOME:rocker:View attachment 255828


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## smokey01 (Oct 6, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> I will be ordering a static climbline Monday, climbing srt on safety blue is like trying to climb a rubber band....:bang: but I am definitely happy with the new wrench works really good. I made a small lanyard that goes from a loop on the back of my harness to the tether on the RW to advance it as I climb. I made it out of 2 small non locking binders and a small piece of accessory cord. Descent is awesome, REALLY AWESOME:rocker:View attachment 255828



That looks awesome, the VT looks like it fits well. Yes, very very smooth. I don't have a lot of experience with DdRT using the same hitch I use with the RW but as apposed to the Unicender it is much smother, just a little more advanced I suspect. 
How are you connecting your accessory cord to the RW? I see that it is really important that those lanyards don't get into or above the RW. 
Just thinking though, if you are using an bungee type cord is should not be able to get anywhere funky on the wrench anyway. 
I set up a connection to the Stiffy that I rather like, you should be able to see it following the link below. 
I'm still working on getting the right split tail-hitch-HTP Sterling static line combination. I like the HTP because it only has 0.67% stretch as apposed to 4.50% (according to Sherrill Tree) but I just don't have the right combination yet. 
Let me know if you find something that works. I think I need to look for the right eye-to-eye cord to get a secure friction on that HTP static.

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/210351.htm

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## smokey01 (Oct 6, 2012)

Customcuts said:


> I will be ordering a static climbline Monday, climbing srt on safety blue is like trying to climb a rubber band....:bang:



Just thinking about the rubber band and rope stretch concept. I think what some guys experience, if mostly what they do is DdRT ands switch, is that when you take the same rope, (if it is rated for it) and use it SRT you get a lot more stretch. I have not seen data on this but if your weight is supported by two ropes or in this case the "doubled" rope (DdRT) the amount of weight applied for the stretch would be half, therefore, maybe half the stretch. So going from the same DdRT rope to using in SRT you feel maybe twice the stretch. This is probably obvious to experienced climbers but I have not read too much about this or the actual numbers when going from DdRT to SRT. 
*Maybe someone can enlighten me. *
Food for thought also. I think once you are up in the tree and moving around working, you would want some stretch so if you take a little sink you don't get the shock loading you get from a static rope. For these reasons, I think there is some justification in ascending SRT with a static line but when you start working, use a more dynamic line whether you end up using the tail of your rope DdRT to move around or continue with the RW on the single line. Of course it all depends on the situation, how high is your TIP, how much will you be moving around in the tree, etc etc....


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 6, 2012)

smokey01 said:


> Just thinking about the rubber band and rope stretch concept. I think what some guys experience, if mostly what they do is DdRT ands switch, is that when you take the same rope, (if it is rated for it) and use it SRT you get a lot more stretch. I have not seen data on this but if your weight is supported by two ropes or in this case the "doubled" rope (DdRT) the amount of weight applied for the stretch would be half, therefore, maybe half the stretch. So going from the same DdRT rope to using in SRT you feel maybe twice the stretch. This is probably obvious to experienced climbers but I have not read too much about this or the actual numbers when going from DdRT to SRT.
> *Maybe someone can enlighten me. *
> Food for thought also. I think once you are up in the tree and moving around working, you would want some stretch so if you take a little sink you don't get the shock loading you get from a static rope. For these reasons, I think there is some justification in ascending SRT with a static line but when you start working, use a more dynamic line whether you end up using the tail of your rope DdRT to move around or continue with the RW on the single line. Of course it all depends on the situation, how high is your TIP, how much will you be moving around in the tree, etc etc....



I think we need a special room for you.
You could aid in this endeavor by starting a new thread.
Jeff


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## Customcuts (Oct 6, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think we need a special room for you.
> You could aid in this endeavor by starting a new thread.
> Jeff



Pick on someone ur own size Jeff.. haha.. u must have a thing for newbies


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