# what will it lift?



## bullbuck (Jul 4, 2009)

curious how much the erickson sky crane can lift on a turn,or total?i have only seen one in action in person, and it was very impressive,was 50 ft.or so below it when he was pouring the fuel on for his ascent back up the mountain loaded with water,very memorable to say the least...


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## hammerlogging (Jul 5, 2009)

i'm gonna go with 22k


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## bullbuck (Jul 5, 2009)

ok,that would mean approximately three turns per log truck load,that sounds not bad,i know nothing of heli logging i just wonder how they can afford to fly logs?ecspecially softwood!you must have to move alot of wood to foot the bills...


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## cowtipper (Jul 5, 2009)

Payload: 20,000 lb (9,072 kg) 
Empty weight: 19,234 lb (8,724 kg) 
Max takeoff weight: 42,000 lb (19,050 kg)


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## Gologit (Jul 5, 2009)

With an S-64 we always figured for 20,000 lbs . Density altitude and fuel load will cut that back quite a bit sometimes.

You have to fly a lot of wood to make it pay. A million bf a week on the landing is a good benchmark, depending on price etc.


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## bullbuck (Jul 5, 2009)

...million bf a week,now thats impressive!


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

Ya gota remember heli logging isn't cheap.


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## bullbuck (Jul 5, 2009)

...talking with my dozer boss on a fire and he had said that even some of the smaller birds get $4000 an hour, i dont know if this is true?they tend to pay really well on fires also so that could be the gov.wage


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## sILlogger (Jul 5, 2009)

Gologit said:


> A million bf a week on the landing is a good benchmark, depending on price etc.



ha ha. i usually do anywhere between 50,000 and 100,000 bdft a week (if all goes as planned of course) with me and one other guy and a skidder....so those boys are moving some wood


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

sILlogger said:


> ha ha. i usually do anywhere between 50,000 and 100,000 bdft a week (if all goes as planned of course) with me and one other guy and a skidder....so those boys are moving some wood



Well Caleb you also don't have the expense of running a helicopter to worry about. Those guys have to produce to make any profit.


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## sILlogger (Jul 5, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Well Caleb you also don't have the expense of running a helicopter to worry about. Those guys have to produce to make any profit.



yea..i suppose pulling all that with a $20,000 log skidder isnt' too bad. 

i still think it would be neat to work around heli's some time.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

Yeah Caleb I'm goin out to British Columbia in August for a week. I'm sure I'll see some heli loggin.


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## sILlogger (Jul 5, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Yeah Caleb I'm goin out to British Columbia in August for a week. I'm sure I'll see some heli loggin.



maybe...i don't know that the markets will support much of that right now. i'm not sure if those boys are still working or not.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

sILlogger said:


> maybe...i don't know that the markets will support much of that right now. i'm not sure if those boys are still working or not.



True true, BC is gettin hit hard too, off and on like it seems to be everywhere.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 5, 2009)

Last winter was the first in 5 the outfit I work for didn't sub some heli logging due to the markets and wood value. But, most of those heli companies do a variety of heavy lifting, not just logging.


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## Gologit (Jul 5, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> ...talking with my dozer boss on a fire and he had said that even some of the smaller birds get $4000 an hour, i dont know if this is true?they tend to pay really well on fires also so that could be the gov.wage



There are all kind of pay scales for aircraft and they usually do fairly well on fires. I don't know the latest rates for Skycranes or Vertols or Chinooks but they're definitely several thousand bucks per hour.

All helicopters use obscene amounts of fuel...the S-64 averages around 500 gallons per flight hour. Couple that with the fact that almost every mechanical component is life limited and _must_ be changed or rebuilt when they're timed out and you have a machine that eats dollars at an impressive rate. Pilots, mechanics, support crew, parts wagon, mobile shop, fuel trailer, and support vehicles all add to the cost. And insurance...don't forget that. I'd like to have for a yearly salary what it costs to insure one of the big birds for a year.

If you're logging with a helicopter, moving a lot of wood in a hurry is the only way to make it. If the helicopter company itself is the logger or if they've hired out by the foot or by the ton to log for someone else it's the same story...get the wood down the hill as fast as you safely can.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

I'm sure it's gota be a good wood high ballin job to keep finances of a company up to be able to work in heli logging.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 5, 2009)

lets just say... they ain't flyin' pulpwood.


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## Metals406 (Jul 5, 2009)

I've worked under helicopters... Back in 1996-97, while seismographing, our Bell Ranger cost $1,000.00 an hour for fuel, and $225.00 an hour for our pilot Ben... That was just the expenses I knew about. I'm sure it's more now, and the bigger birds would be more yet.

I could see them charging 3-4k an hour easily.


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## corsair4360 (Jul 5, 2009)

*S-64 Capabilities*

I participated in an analysis for Erickson right out of college for one of the initial sales using their S64. The biggest challenge they faced is an interesting one, that of how to accurately predict the load weight, and maintain a nearly full capacity load for each turn. The bird was loaded with minimal fuel (30 minutes of work) to maximize the lifting weight and a fuel truck was on site for that reason as well as a small helicopter to lift the chokers back to the hill, without wasting time for the larger machine returning low weight items to the sale site.

One not often discussed aspect of the helicopter logging is that for over weight turns one must very quickly dump the load, or the bird will reverse pendulum into the ground. Erickson lost at least one air crane that way early on. Emergency release switches (electric help) and I think they may now use an automatic release if the turn is overweight since the decision has to be made almost instantly or it can turn into a disaster really quickly.

The real challenge became how to estimate accurately the weight of the turn, such that it was not overweight, but right at the lifting load maximum. Unfortunately, log densities used to built the log weight tables were based on statistical averages, which meant that in order to not overload the helicopter one would normally not load it heavy enough. Given the cost of the bird to run per hour that reduced payload was not a good thing. I don't know if better estimating tools were eventually created for estimating the weight of the logs to make up a turn for the air crane. 

I went on to other things, and have no been around them since (1973) although I am still keenly interested in them and airplanes.


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## redprospector (Jul 5, 2009)

The only thing I know about helicopter's is that when they drop a 250 gallon bucket of water on you, it will knock you on your azz. 

I'm still not sure if he just missed the spot, or was aiming at me. The pilot swore that it was purely accidental, but he was laughing the whole time.

Andy


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 5, 2009)

redprospector said:


> The only thing I know about helicopter's is that when they drop a 250 gallon bucket of water on you, it will knock you on your azz.
> 
> I'm still not sure if he just missed the spot, or was aiming at me. The pilot swore that it was purely accidental, but he was laughing the whole time.
> 
> Andy



I wouldn't wana be runnin a saw when I got hit with that, of course I wouldn't wana get hit with it anyways.


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## CollegeLogger (Jul 5, 2009)

Cost right now on our last fire for a Vertol was $3500 an hour on the fire, the 206 was around $1600 an hour if i remember right. Both were doin bucket drops and had at least an hour on the fire. Pretty cool to sit in the safety zone and watch 1300 gallons of water come out of the bucket of the big ship though.


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## bullbuck (Jul 5, 2009)

talked to the mechanic of a columbia chinook?anyways red and white twinprop,and he said he had been with the company for quite awhile,and offered up that he went for one turn on the heli and swore that would be his last...he also told me that some of the best pilots in the world cannot handle long line skidding...


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## Greystoke (Jul 6, 2009)

*Helicopter logging*

This is part of a Chinook landing in Humboldt County CA, working for Columbia Helicopters:





Insane what those things can lift...I think around 28,000 lbs max. Also insane how fast a good pilot can plug up a landing. We had to rip, and sometimes quarter 20 foot logs that were too heavy for it, but you usually had the pilot try logs that were close to weight, at the end of the fuel cycle. It was scary being on the ground when they would come try one, as the rotor wash was intense, because those huge rotor blades were pushing so much air as the pilot was trying to lift the logyou definitely wanted to make sure that you could hunker by a big stump or something...never been in a hurricane, but that is what it seemed like.


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## Metals406 (Jul 6, 2009)

Cool picture Cody! Yeah, rotor wash sucks (or blows )... Especially when near thick, poofy sand/dirt... It'll sandblast you to death!


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 6, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Cool picture Cody! Yeah, rotor wash sucks (or blows )... Especially when near thick, poofy sand/dirt... It'll sandblast you to death!



That must suck, probably like a sandstorm. My aunt was in a few while at a base in Afghanistan.


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## Metals406 (Jul 6, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> That must suck, probably like a sandstorm. My aunt was in a few while at a base in Afghanistan.



It does suck! It's like standing inside a blast cabinet.


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## bullbuck (Jul 6, 2009)

nice logs there,did the chinook fly that big one you are next to?


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## Greystoke (Jul 7, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> nice logs there,did the chinook fly that big one you are next to?



Yep...It flew all of those logs. Most of them are 40 footers...I am guessing that the one I am next to was a 20. We usually tried to keep a butt-cut around 2,300 bd. ft. in Redwood for the Chinook. The Chinook also flew all of the logs off of the tree in my avatar. They had to quarter the first two 20 foot logs off the butt and rip the third and fourth 20 foot logs. We would staple the pink panels that you see on the logs, so that the Chinook pilot could see where to drop his grapple. A regular sized turn was a square panel, and a heavy turn was a diamond pattern, so that he would know to try it toward the end of his fuel cycle. Wish I was still cutting logs for the Chinook!


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

man that does sound like a good time,hopefully things look up soon...i assume you guys use ripping chain to rip logs?i read in a book one time that the old timers used to drill and dynamite their logs into skiddable sizes,have you seen or heard of anyone still doing that?


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

A guy I met at Madsen's said back in the 1970's when he logged in Alaska they used dynamite to get the logs down to a managable weight.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

sILlogger said:


> ha ha. i usually do anywhere between 50,000 and 100,000 bdft a week (if all goes as planned of course) with me and one other guy and a skidder....so those boys are moving some wood



50 to 100 between three guys is nothing to laugh at either,you must have a tight crew...


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> 50 to 100 between three guys is nothing to laugh at either,you must have a tight crew...



yup...but i was talking about 2 guys, me and one other one. we both can cut or skid so that helps a bunch.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

That's good work my cousin and his partner can get out 10+ loads a day, by themselves.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

...more or less cut and skid three loads a day?do you guys sub the hauling?


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

My cousin has someone else haul for him, he contract cuts for Deer Park.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> That's good work my cousin and his partner can get out 10+ loads a day, by themselves.


no disrespect,but that sounds like alot to cut skid load and haul for two guys?


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

is this hand fell or mechanized?


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

mine is all hand falling. i don't do the hauling, typically the sawmill provides the hauling. my end of it consists of cutting, skidding, bucking and loader operation.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

Hand falling, he falls em and the other guy limbs, bucks, and skids em.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

shirt thats alot of wood,we got on a fire salvage sale on the res. a couple years back,clearcut of course all large second growth no trash,and i could skid 8 loads a day in my sleep...i had never seen it that good the logs were big but not too big...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

What kinda wood was it? That burn stuff is probably hell on chains.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> no disrespect,but that sounds like alot to cut skid load and haul for two guys?


...i can definately see two guys getting ten loads to the road.i thought you were hauling too...my mistake.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

doug,white,sugar,pondo,your regular stuff,and no not that i can tell it cuts just the same to me,other than the whites generally disintegrate on impact,you definately want to maintenance your filters properly but,we love the burns it is the only time we have made good money as is there is generally high volume in small areas...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

Work is slowing down around here, with almost two months of rain loggers aren't working as much and things are sort of slowing down.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

...where is there if you dont mind me asking?


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

NE PA, not very close to Colorado.


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## slowp (Jul 7, 2009)

I'll have to find my slides and have them made into prints. I worked on a burn salvage near Klamath Falls in 93?? Both Columbia and Erickson were flying logs and they had service landings near each other. I noticed Columbia had newer travel trailers. Most of the wood was ponderosa and there was a race to get it out before breakup or before bluing set in. 

Erickson started out with a Bell 210? It had Thumper painted on the front.
Then Columbia moved in and started on a nearby sale with their Vertol. Not all the wood was large. In fact, my slides are of several bunches of small logs choked to each other being flown in. 

I had to leave, right when Erickson was moving in the skycrane. There was definitely a competition going between the two companies. 
This was the place that my feet were first ridiculed.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

i actually live in southern new mexico about 100 miles from mexico,i live at 8600'and it gets as high as 12,000 unique little area,so you guys are moving hardwoods then,out here it is all softwood logging...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

How big of a burn was that? Any big timber on that site?


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

definately like to see those pics...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> i actually live in southern new mexico about 100 miles from mexico,i live at 8600'and it gets as high as 12,000 unique little area,so you guys are moving hardwoods then,out here it is all softwood logging...



Highest elevation around here it varies from 900ft-1800ft.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

...this one was a little over 5000 acres,lit off at 11 in the morning and stalled by four in the afternoon it was a fast mover but ran out of fuel...big timber?i fell a handfull of four footers big for here,but there was a 5 to 6 footer i was eyeballin and jonny the logger from the canyon over got in a beef with my boss and mowed it down on a saturday,not the kind of guy i was gonna argue with though...


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

There's some large trees across from my house, mostly hemlocks and pines, a couple large oaks and maples too.


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

around here is it all hardwood. i've cut a few of them upwards a 7' on the stump...so i get into a few big'uns. they are fun to cut but a pita to deal with.

in the beginning of april i flew into el paso to buy a truck. so i wasn't all that far from you bullbuck.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

how do thoes old growth hardwoods cut?


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

Well where I lived the whole mountain burned in the 1930's started by a bolt of lightning, there wasn't a tree left. It's been almost 80 years and I guess the big oaks survived, but for only 80 years+/- the pines and hemlocks grew back fast.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

sILlogger said:


> around here is it all hardwood. i've cut a few of them upwards a 7' on the stump...so i get into a few big'uns. they are fun to cut but a pita to deal with.
> 
> in the beginning of april i flew into el paso to buy a truck. so i wasn't all that far from you bullbuck.



no you where not far at all,70 miles as the crow flies...there is a nice little stretch of mountains here if you are not pressed for time...


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Well where I lived the whole mountain burned in the 1930's started by a bolt of lightning, there wasn't a tree left. It's been almost 80 years and I guess the big oaks survived, but for only 80 years+/- the pines and hemlocks grew back fast.



round these parts if it burns hot we get scrub oak,the elk love it though...


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

do be honest the majority of the biggest trees i've cut weren't that old. as for old growth(hate the term btw) we don't have alot of it. there are a few scattered old trees and they usually cut pretty good. red oaks have a tendency to get brittle and you gotta watch how you lay it out. all in all it cuts pretty good. 

heres a few that i got pics of


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> how do thoes old growth hardwoods cut?



Not too good if it's a field tree that's got barbed wire or nails in it, other wise not bad.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

Wow Caleb I've never seen a nice big ash like that one.


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> Wow Caleb I've never seen a nice big ash like that one.



that was poplar. although i have cut some 4'+ ash trees. just don't have any pics. these aren't all the trees i've cut this size...just the ones i've got pics of.. and keep in mind i'm just a 22 yr old punk.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

sILlogger said:


> that was poplar. although i have cut some 4'+ ash trees. just don't have any pics. these aren't all the trees i've cut this size...just the ones i've got pics of.. and keep in mind i'm just a 22 yr old punk.



Never seen a poplar like that, yeah I'm just an 18 yr old punk, hahaha.


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## bullbuck (Jul 7, 2009)

...now with some fairly clear logs like those,what do they make out of them?


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## sILlogger (Jul 7, 2009)

pretty much everything.. i have stuff that goes for pallets, railroad ties, construction mats (mud mats), flooring, cabinets, veneer, and logs that get exported.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 7, 2009)

Mills around here are getting picky about logs they want for pallets.


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## Roy M (Jul 8, 2009)

I am enjoying this thread. I worked around helicopters for 13 years, five in heli logging. Our biggest ships were S-61's we also had two S-58 turbines (flying oil leaks) and a 205.
Most of our work was done with ground crews and chokers although we did some grapple work if the ground lent itself to it. The turns had to be close to optimum weight in one pick which was not always easy to do. 
Some of the sites would give a mountain goat gray hairs and religion. The logs would bunch up in the trees the bottom of a steep slope and the riggers had to be mighty careful hooking them up. It was a job for young guys with more guts than brains. Few lasted more than a few years. They would have a competition with the pilot guessing the weight of the turn and got very close with experience.
In 1988 I chased a 61 on fires with a fuel truck in northern CA. At one point we worked beside a Skycrane. Their bucket carried as much as my truck, 2000 U.S. gallons. They re fueled from a B-train. We felt kinda small.


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## bullbuck (Jul 8, 2009)

...another thing about the s 64 that just blows my mind is that it would reload that 2000 gallons in something like 30 seconds i was there and it was fast!did not have a stopwatch...what i mean is that plumbing must be glowing red to pull that much water that fast...and what provides the power, there must be a rather large auxilliuary to do all of that?


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## Roy M (Jul 9, 2009)

The belly tank system you saw is much more reliable than the bucket. The larger Bambi buckets are too big and heavy for the design, they work well under a medium or light lift. The machine has a 300VAC alternator to power the auxiliary systems and yeah, those pumps haul water.
I was sitting outside a few minutes ago and heard a different noise. A 64 came over presumably on it's way to the Vancouver airport.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jul 9, 2009)

How often do fires occur in BC?


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## bullbuck (Jul 9, 2009)

Roy M said:


> I am enjoying this thread. I worked around helicopters for 13 years, five in heli logging. Our biggest ships were S-61's we also had two S-58 turbines (flying oil leaks) and a 205.
> Most of our work was done with ground crews and chokers although we did some grapple work if the ground lent itself to it. The turns had to be close to optimum weight in one pick which was not always easy to do.
> Some of the sites would give a mountain goat gray hairs and religion. The logs would bunch up in the trees the bottom of a steep slope and the riggers had to be mighty careful hooking them up. It was a job for young guys with more guts than brains. Few lasted more than a few years. They would have a competition with the pilot guessing the weight of the turn and got very close with experience.
> In 1988 I chased a 61 on fires with a fuel truck in northern CA. At one point we worked beside a Skycrane. Their bucket carried as much as my truck, 2000 U.S. gallons. They re fueled from a B-train. We felt kinda small.



i am so envyous of the time you have spent around heavy lift helicopters,i am sure its not all roses but to me being on the outside i think that would be the coolest job,i have never even ridden in one,but every time i get around choppers,i always make a point of trying to meet the mechanic,pilot,shoot fuel guy, whoever?just in hopes of hitchin a ride...


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## Roy M (Jul 11, 2009)

I did not get to spend a lot of weekends at home during the summer, good thing I wasn't married at the time. It was an interesting period in my life but can't handle the bull work and runaway egos any more. Too many of the crew viewed themselves as celebrities.
MMFaller39 we certainly do get fires in BC. There is a lot of beetle killed pine just waiting for a lightening strike or a careless match. We are having a warm dry summer, record low rainfall in June, and the forests are tinder dry. Very steep terrain can make the job tough.


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## MR4WD (Jul 13, 2009)

Here's a pic of a Chinook we used today to wreck out a powerline tower in the high alpine. A Chinook is better for us because it can lift MORE than a skycrane, is more stable and has less downwash. This bird was rated for 25,000-27,000 pounds at sea level, but the heaviest lift today was 17,000 at ~5600'

Anytime a skycrane is around we wear earmuffs and running shoes. That's because the pilots like to tell people how good they are, but when they get flying you'd better be light on your feet. I've seen more than one load crash into something or other other the end of a skycrane.


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## Metals406 (Jul 13, 2009)

MR4WD said:


> Here's a pic of a Chinook we used today to wreck out a powerline tower in the high alpine. A Chinook is better for us because it can lift MORE than a skycrane, is more stable and has less downwash. This bird was rated for 25,000-27,000 pounds at sea level, but the heaviest lift today was 17,000 at ~5600'
> 
> Anytime a skycrane is around we wear earmuffs and running shoes. That's because the pilots like to tell people how good they are, but when they get flying you'd better be light on your feet. I've seen more than one load crash into something or other other the end of a skycrane.



Do you work all year? What kind of wages and bennies does your company pay?


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## MR4WD (Jul 13, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Do you work all year? What kind of wages and bennies does your company pay?



I am a Power Lineman, by trade. I try and only work 1/2 a year, but it depends on things. Some guys I work with make 300 grand a year, but that's too much for me. Full benefits. I bebop around in terms of work scope, but I usually do stuff like this:

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## bullbuck (Jul 13, 2009)

...cajones big brass cajones!


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## Metals406 (Jul 13, 2009)

MR4WD said:


> I am a Power Lineman, by trade. I try and only work 1/2 a year, but it depends on things. Some guys I work with make 300 grand a year, but that's too much for me. Full benefits. I bebop around in terms of work scope, but I usually do stuff like this:



My brother is a lineman, and has considered doing the Helo stuff... A very unique, highly trained, specialty field. Kudos to you!


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## redprospector (Jul 13, 2009)

Hahaha. I liked that. "Only 3 thing's I've ever been afraid of".
Great video. 
And I agree, great big brass ball's.

Andy


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## MR4WD (Jul 13, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> My brother is a lineman, and has considered doing the Helo stuff... A very unique, highly trained, specialty field. Kudos to you!



Tell him to quit considering. People who think about doing it often look back and wish they did it. It's pretty easy, but hands down, bar none the most dangerous job in the world. It's just more calculated than other dangerous jobs.

Thanks for the kudos. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best kept secret in the world. Lots of money for doing an easy job.


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## bullbuck (Jul 13, 2009)

some people just have what it takes,for me you could not pay me enough duckets to be a bird on the wire,at the risk of being cliche' this really is genuinely"putting it all on the line"i thank you and your brothers for keeping the lights on!


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## Roy M (Jul 14, 2009)

You better hope that pilot has a steady hand and excellent depth perception. Whew.


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## MR4WD (Jul 14, 2009)

Roy M said:


> You better hope that pilot has a steady hand and excellent depth perception. Whew.




Most "platform taxi" pilots are either young guys, 25-30 or old military pilots.

The best I flew with was a one eyed drunk. We've found a lot has to do with the bird. A 500's pretty smooth to work off of, but can't rig heavy. A long ranger is a bit bouncy and more affected by wind but can lift a bit more. An A-star B2 is what I like the most, but I'm a bigger guy than some of the guys that prefer hughes 500's.


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## Roy M (Jul 15, 2009)

I can see why you like the B-2. The 500 is great for slinging but not the most steady machine for your line of work.


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## booboo (Jul 19, 2009)

First off, this is a great thread.

Second, the best pilots I've flown with are old military pilots. But that's Hueys. Never done any heli-logging but I'd love to give it a try

Third, 50-100K bf a week is pretty damned good with a 2 man crew. We can't do close to that but we're also working on steep ground with some LONG skids.


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## booboo (Jul 19, 2009)

Oh yeah, and the wood market still sucks around here with no sign of turning around. I guess the only reason anyone is cutting wood here is to pay the bills. Everyone loses in this scenario...


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## bullbuck (Jul 20, 2009)

...well since i ask too many questions anyways,i wonder who would be the guy qualified enough to eyeball a turn as far as weight?(chokeset)i have fell and skidded and thought i knew how heavy it was?haha until i became a loaderman and started getting weight tickets back from the mill i had no clue...what i am asking is to get a proper load for that heli where he can just fly away,what kind of groundman qualifies for that?


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