# Ever have a job like this....



## Brush Hog (Mar 29, 2007)

Had a friend of my moms call me to drop a tree and nothing else. Easy job and I told him I'd do it for a case of beer. Went today to drop it and he said do you want to put a rope in it. No, I'm just gonna notch it and drive a wedge in. All went well til the wedge I brought was too long and a gust of wind put it 180 degrees wrong way. No harm except to my ego. I knew I should've just climbed the damn thing like I want to but figured a) out in the open b) in and out quick. You can yell at me or laugh with me because I'm laughing. Right now not at the time it happened. Here's my sign


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 29, 2007)

Brush Hog said:


> Had a friend of my moms call me to drop a tree and nothing else. Easy job and I told him I'd do it for a case of beer. Went today to drop it and he said do you want to put a rope in it. No, I'm just gonna notch it and drive a wedge in. All went well til the wedge I brought was too long and a gust of wind put it 180 degrees wrong way. No harm except to my ego. I knew I should've just climbed the damn thing like I want to but figured a) out in the open b) in and out quick. You can yell at me or laugh with me because I'm laughing. Right now not at the time it happened. Here's my sign



At least you owned up to it, especially on a public forum!!!


All too often people won't admit when they make a mistake!!!


Chalk it up to experience.............happens to eveyone!!!


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## Trignog (Mar 29, 2007)

C'mon, you gotta earn your beer man. Instead of climbing to set a line use a throw line. Throw line or climbing, the customer can't do it, so you seem impressive. Well worth the beer. Now you look dumb. 

Don't sweat it, I was blocking down 6' chuncks of black locust today, about 24", big wood. I checked my gear before every cut, except once. Thought "no, I just moved my climbing line , I'm cool." Well I went to move it from under the block to over it like your supposed to. Well the piece was already tied off and I put it inside the rigging. When I let the piece go it pulled my climber, severed all but 5 strands of my 24 strand velocity. Luckily my lanyard was in the proper place(always tie in twice!). Worst part is I cut the splice clean off. Oh well, lesson learned, there's worse things in life.


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## Treeman587 (Mar 29, 2007)

Brush Hog said:


> Had a friend of my moms call me to drop a tree and nothing else. Easy job and I told him I'd do it for a case of beer. Went today to drop it and he said do you want to put a rope in it. No, I'm just gonna notch it and drive a wedge in. All went well til the wedge I brought was too long and a gust of wind put it 180 degrees wrong way. No harm except to my ego. I knew I should've just climbed the damn thing like I want to but figured a) out in the open b) in and out quick. You can yell at me or laugh with me because I'm laughing. Right now not at the time it happened. Here's my sign




No, I know what I am doing!:yoyo: j/k

Seriously though. I hate wedges for felling. I almost always put a line in. What I dont like about wedges is that you greatly increase the pressure on your hinge. That, in turn, Increases the probability of failure. Too much and it will snap, then You are screwed.


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## Dadatwins (Mar 29, 2007)

Given the cost of a Big Shot and throw line, and how easy it makes it to place a pull line in just about any tree, I do not see any reason not to have one on every job. Wedges are great tools and have many uses, but nothing beats a 1/2" line near the top of a tree to pull one over. Stop asking "do I really need it?" and get a Big Shot to place a pull line.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2007)

Two large wooden pole pruner extensions encased in pvc pipe,
one sharpened spike similar to a firewood poker placed in one end
and secured, makes a real good tree pusher ! I only use mine when 
a good margin of safety exists, and believe it or not is capable of pushing
a pretty good tree over against a lean but mostly use a rope! I used this
pole pusher cutting new rows to keep debris out of intended row to
allow truck access for trimming . Its fast and safe when you respect
its limitations!!!!


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## ropensaddle (Mar 30, 2007)

one rubber mallet handle cut off, eye screw placed in one end, small100 foot cord tied to eye, pretty good throw ball I put extra rubber on mine in layers with gorilla glue for extra weight, works better than them sacks that don't have enough weight to come down with thumping or snapping the cord!!I made mine after buying the sack couldn't find the old type throw ball for sale!!!
They were made right kinda looked like a toilet float!!!! Had plenty weight


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## Grace Tree (Mar 30, 2007)

I almost always use a pull line. I used to be so confident that I'd put a traffic cone out at the end of the lay of the fall. The tree would hit the cone and fly around. All pretty impressive until I had one go wrong and swat 30 ft. of gutter off the customer's house. It was hard to take at the time but now I consider it a cheap lesson in safety and humility.
Phil


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## ozy365 (Mar 30, 2007)

rope puller is the best tool for flopping trees. Even use it occasionally with ground anchor and wedges. A line even 10 feet up makes a huge difference. Gotta make sure you're in around the trunk...1 ton of pull on a branch can be a problem


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## Brush Hog (Mar 30, 2007)

> At least you owned up to it, especially on a public forum!!!
> 
> 
> All too often people won't admit when they make a mistake!!!



Hey nothing like a public flogging at my expense :biggrinbounce2: . Don't *REAL *men admit when they are wrong


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## Jumper (Mar 30, 2007)

GRCS would have made the job a real cinch.


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## pbtree (Mar 30, 2007)

Been there done that...


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## geofore (Mar 31, 2007)

*180* out*

You'll have that happen more than once when the wind is up to playing tricks and the wedge is the wrong one. 
Had a Mike helping me clear a few trees along the driveway at my other place yesterday. Two of the pines he cut fell 180* out. Not a problem but I got to show him how to use a limb cut to 5' as a lever to twist the tree off the stump and the very next tree he found out that grapevines can hold a tree in mid air. So, on that tree he got to use the limb trick to twist it out the vines and to the ground. Who'd a thunk that trick would be so handy he could use it on the next tree? :jawdrop: 300' of the driveway is cleared with 350' to go next weekend. Mike will learn some more tricks next week.


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## clearance (Mar 31, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> No, I know what I am doing!:yoyo: j/k
> 
> Seriously though. I hate wedges for felling. I almost always put a line in. What I dont like about wedges is that you greatly increase the pressure on your hinge. That, in turn, Increases the probability of failure. Too much and it will snap, then You are screwed.



Uhhh, ok. I have never done this, I have pounded the living snot outta wedges, stacked 'em, beat them mercillessly untill she went over, never seen the holding wood bust vertically. I have screwed up falling before, anyone who has done it a lot has, no big deal. Always a good idea to back up a rope with wedges anyways. Am I wrong here?


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## Ekka (Apr 1, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> What I dont like about wedges is that you greatly increase the pressure on your hinge. That, in turn, Increases the probability of failure. Too much and it will snap, then You are screwed.





clearance said:


> Uhhh, ok. I have never done this, I have pounded the living snot outta wedges, stacked 'em, beat them mercillessly untill she went over, never seen the holding wood bust vertically. I have screwed up falling before, anyone who has done it a lot has, no big deal. Always a good idea to back up a rope with wedges anyways. Am I wrong here?



How can a wedge snap a hinge? The wedge lifts the tree. The same amount of weight is on the hingewood whether you are wedging or pulling with a rope or pushing with an excavator boom.

Utter BS that statement and yes, you should back up your cuts with wedges even if pulling with rope ... unless it's some pecker pole I suppose.

Wind is always a critical factor and so is the hinge thickness. Think back up, what if rope breaks, tree breaks, winch breaks, vehicle loses traction etc etc. 

Just today I had to fell a gum into about a 15mph head wind, I roped around 1/2 ht for a vehicle pull but as I was doing the back cut banged in a wedge. As the vehicle pulled a little I avanced the wedge till the tree was going then cleared out of there.

Be smart, be wise and be safe.


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## Treeman587 (Apr 1, 2007)

It is simple physics and I have seen it happen. If you have a back lean, rather than a forward lean it makes a difference. With a forward lean you have the face cut in your favor, as the hinge is working, the tree is falling. So it is not in a bind. But with a back lean, the weight of the tree is behind the hinge and is set on the wedge, which creates a lever action that pulls up on the hinge.

Look at it this way, What does the hinge do when your face cut closes. It snaps the hinge. Well behind the hinge there is no releif in the form of a face cut, So when the tree is sitting back on the wedge it is trying to snap the hinge, until you get the weight transferred to the other side, then your face cut is providing enough fall for the tree to be on a dedicated path before the hinge breaks. 

As far as a tree breaking using a rope. If you are wise with your rope placement, How can it break when the hinge has become the weakest point in the spar? I dont do a Bore cut and Trigger on larger pulls, the only time I use that is when I feel it will fall without assitance. I make one backcut, I watch the tree and when the hinge is right I signal the my guys to go ahead and lay into it. They just hold pressure on the line until I get to that point. It doesn't take 10,000 pounds of force to pull a tree over, You just have to know when to pull.

A secure line as high as possible in the tree gives you the most leverage.
Add a second line and a winch to the equation, And you can pull over some serious trees. Ones I would never try to do with wedges.

Ekka, I have always respected your opinion. But I disagree with you on this one.


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## Treeman587 (Apr 1, 2007)

There are a lot of variables in felling a tree. And many things we have to estimate accuratley in order to have a successful fall. To each his own. I like my way. You like yours.


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## clearance (Apr 1, 2007)

Heavy leaners can be swung away from thier lean somewhat, to a point, reasonable leaners can be wedged over completely against thier lean. Good fallers can do things that most good arborists would never attempt. I ain't no westcoast faller and I cringe at the word arborist, little of both I guess (some would disagree) If you have doubt as to your abilities, by all means get a rope in it. If I figure I can just fall it with an axe and wedges I do, depends heavily on the species of tree as well. Fir, pine, spruce, good stuff, cottonwood, maple, etc, forget about it, I rope away as well. Ain't no excuse if you have rope in it but that ain't falling, thats cheating, I know it. 371xp,394xp, 395xp (Walkerized), ms200 Stihl (the little bastard in the bunch)


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## Treeman587 (Apr 1, 2007)

clearance said:


> Heavy leaners can be swung away from thier lean somewhat, to a point, reasonable leaners can be wedged over completely against thier lean. Good fallers can do things that most good arborists would never attempt. I ain't no westcoast faller and I cringe at the word arborist, little of both I guess (some would disagree) If you have doubt as to your abilities, by all means get a rope in it. If I figure I can just fall it with an axe and wedges I do, depends heavily on the species of tree as well. Fir, pine, spruce, good stuff, cottonwood, maple, etc, forget about it, I rope away as well. Ain't no excuse if you have rope in it but that ain't falling, thats cheating, I know it. 371xp,394xp, 395xp (Walkerized), ms200 Stihl (the little bastard in the bunch)



Good post. Perhaps I had forgotten about the WC guys. And I am not a logger. Just a suburban treeman helping hurricane fearing citizens. Around here it is mainly pine and gum that we do removals on. While gum is fairly resilient, pine can be questionable. That and I climb almost everything I work on, So why not put a rope on it when you are already up there.


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## Mitchell (Apr 3, 2007)

*wedges*

Originally Posted by Treeman587 
What I dont like about wedges is that you greatly increase the pressure on your hinge. That, in turn, Increases the probability of failure. Too much and it will snap, then You are screwed.


For my 2 cents... after 13 years falling in the forets of BC I have never had a problem with wedges snapping the hinge wood on green sticks. I have seen jacks bust trees off, but not wedges on green trees with sufficant holding wood; even on crap like popular. I hated using them becouse it ment I was going slow, consequently I lost a few power heads over the years. I would think it could not hurt to back up any pull with a wedge. Im new to residental stuff so im adapting and i find myself using ropes to pull more and more for the added security. 
cheers


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2007)

Hey, I use my 20 ton pto winch on my bucket truck I know
I have enough pull I get a good pull on tree kill engine. The winch usually
has enough tension to fell tree and if it doesn't go when two inch of meat 
left of hinge I kill saw and start truck and she pulls her over. I have started this procedure on smaller trees and uprooted them to save grinding time!!
I can pull up to a twenty inch tree out of the ground, but if don't have
much room I just get tight and kill truck! This pull is like hooking to a
tractor but better because its steady pull that ten groundmen could
not duplicate:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## ropensaddle (Apr 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Uhhh, ok. I have never done this, I have pounded the living snot outta wedges, stacked 'em, beat them mercillessly untill she went over, never seen the holding wood bust vertically. I have screwed up falling before, anyone who has done it a lot has, no big deal. Always a good idea to back up a rope with wedges anyways. Am I wrong here?


 Must have cut too fast, or too much hinge wood before driving wedge, cut a little drive a little and works better than cutting until sets back on notch and then driving wedge. Going too fast on back cut is number one cause of felling problems!!


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## clearance (Apr 3, 2007)

ropensaddle said:


> Must have cut too fast, or too much hinge wood before driving wedge, cut a little drive a little and works better than cutting until sets back on notch and then driving wedge. Going too fast on back cut is number one cause of felling problems!!



I figure the #1 cause is an improper undercut myself. You should really set the wedge as soon as you can. Cut a little, drive a little, theres the ticket.


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## treesquirrel (Apr 3, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> Given the cost of a Big Shot and throw line, and how easy it makes it to place a pull line in just about any tree, I do not see any reason not to have one on every job. Wedges are great tools and have many uses, but nothing beats a 1/2" line near the top of a tree to pull one over. Stop asking "do I really need it?" and get a Big Shot to place a pull line.



Yep! The big shot changed my life forever. I cannot even fathom not placing a line now that it takes maybe 5-10 minutes tops to do so.


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## Ekka (Apr 5, 2007)

It could be argued then that it wasn't the wedge that broke the hinge wood but the conditions. Had the wedge not have been inserted the tree would have failed anyway, which means inappropriate method selected.

Back leaners and headwinds need back ups, and anyone wedging in such conditions in suburbia without back up is taking risks.

Also, I have never lost a tree out the back, but I wouldn't take the risk either if it were a bad back leaner/weighted tree/windy etc, of course a rope gives greater support but I still wedge as I cut.

What we dont know is how much hinge wood was left in this case, there's no pics to see, was it too little etc.


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## Brush Hog (Apr 5, 2007)

I don't really remember how much hinge was left. I think what really happened was wind switched direction at the worst possible time. Wind was coming out of NW to W which was the way the tree was going to fall and it wasn't a lot of wind else I would have bagged the job. It was way out in the backyard so no threat of damage and I was experimenting with wedges. I've got a buddy that uses them all the time and figured I'd give it a shot. Guess I should've talked to him first huh. Is it really possible to drop with just wedges and where can I get some info ? This is a technique new to me but would like to learn more about it
Pete


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## clearance (Apr 5, 2007)

Brush Hog said:


> Is it really possible to drop with just wedges and where can I get some info ? This is a technique new to me but would like to learn more about it
> Pete



Guys do it every day, that falling. You said the wedge you had was too long, here is an idea. Put in the backcut first, tap in the wedge gently, now put in the undercut, making sure you do not cut off your holding wood. This works good on pecker poles. There is a wealth of information on this site, there are some real fallers here. Use the search function.


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## Boa07 (Apr 6, 2007)

Clearance is right there are lots of guys with years of experience on this site who have posted in lots of threads discussing aspects of falling trees in great detail. Here's a simple basic guide from NZ which deals with the use of wedges really nicely, the split backcut technique is one taught to me in Forestry that I use every day I fall trees, its safe reliable repeatable in all kinds of situations. (page 21)
One of the great things about splitting your back cut is it makes you consider other aspects of the process *ie escape routes*


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## Bermie (Apr 6, 2007)

*split level cut*



Boa07 said:


> Clearance is right there are lots of guys with years of experience on this site who have posted in lots of threads discussing aspects of falling trees in great detail. Here's a simple basic guide from NZ which deals with the use of wedges really nicely, the split backcut technique is one taught to me in Forestry that I use every day I fall trees, its safe reliable repeatable in all kinds of situations. (page 21)
> One of the great things about splitting your back cut is it makes you consider other aspects of the process *ie escape routes*



I wondered when someone would mention split cuts, we call it the split level cut or breaker bar cut. I use it all the time to put leaners where I want them to go, was doing it all day yesterday clearing trashy scrub growth of fiddlewood. 

This cut page 27, is where the felling bar/breaker bar come into its own, once the first half of the backcut is done, put the bar in it, then finish the second angled cut and lever the tree over. Sometimes you can see the tree sit back, but all is well, no drama as you already have your aid tool in place.
You have to be careful though and assess the weight, size and lean and wind, to determine what level of assistance you need, just the bar, a rope and the bar, a rope and high lift wedge or a winch and wedges. Sense and sensibility are essential!

I looked at your pdf booklet and on page 27 it has a picture of it. The only difference I was taught is the second angled part of the backcut should end up being the same height on the outside edge as the first cut, and should slightly 'underlap' the first cut.

The biggest problem with this cut is not matching or overlapping the cuts inside the tree next to the back of the hinge. If you leave a 'triangle' of uncut wood in that area it is an absolute bugger to get the tree over and then the drama starts...

:greenchainsaw: 
Happy Easter everyone.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Apr 6, 2007)

Treeman587 said:


> It is simple physics and I have seen it happen. If you have a back lean, rather than a forward lean it makes a difference. With a forward lean you have the face cut in your favor, as the hinge is working, the tree is falling. So it is not in a bind. But with a back lean, the weight of the tree is behind the hinge and is set on the wedge, which creates a lever action that pulls up on the hinge.




Well, I ain't a tree guy (as clearance likes to point out ), but the physics is pretty straightforward here. The forces involved are simple to diagram. Treeman is right - back lean & front lean are completely different animals, and with back lean, a wedge _is_ putting vertical stress on the hinge. It can't NOT do so. Whether it's enough to cause failure is, of course, dependent on many variables.


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## sawsong (Apr 6, 2007)

Bermie said:


> I wondered when someone would mention split cuts, we call it the split level cut or breaker bar cut. I use it all the time to put leaners where I want them to go, was doing it all day yesterday clearing trashy scrub growth of fiddlewood.
> 
> This cut page 27, is where the felling bar/breaker bar come into its own, once the first half of the backcut is done, put the bar in it, then finish the second angled cut and lever the tree over. Sometimes you can see the tree sit back, but all is well, no drama as you already have your aid tool in place.
> You have to be careful though and assess the weight, size and lean and wind, to determine what level of assistance you need, just the bar, a rope and the bar, a rope and high lift wedge or a winch and wedges. Sense and sensibility are essential!
> ...




yep, split level technique would quite probably have been a winner here!

take out your sink (notch) as normal, 45 degrees on normal terrain etc and 20-25% of the tree depth-wise as a pretty reliable guide

make your back cut above the level of the bottom of the sink but not more than an inch higher, but dont cut it full width of the tree, go 2/3 across moving your bar forwards toward the sink leaving at least 10% by diameter for the hinge, the skill here is to keep your bar and saw perfectly level, and move through the wood straight keeping the bar parallel to the hinge and sink at all times.

as soon as the first part of the back cut is completed, get your felling lever or wedge in place. I find a lever most effective a lot of the time. the tree is of course still held in place by the hinge and the 1/3 of wood still left

the second cut is made from the other side of the tree and keeping the bar parallel and flat front to back, tilt the tip of the bar downwards so as to undercut the first cut containing the bar (N.B NO STEEL TOOLS EVER TO BE IN THE SAME CUT AS THE SAW).

if the tree is leaning back, the weight will go onto the bar or wedge but since it is well in the cut the tree should not really 'move' too much

again, if the saw has been kept straight and level, and parallel to the hinge (good stance and moving your whole body is key whilst knowing where the nose is) then a good heave on the bar will send the tree where you want it.


im personally of the opinion that a parallel hinge with even thickness throughout is more important than any rope in the accurate direction of tree felling


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## joesawer (Apr 7, 2007)

Wedging small trees is often more difficult than large trees. 
First the wedge is closer to the hinge so you have less leverage and you are moving the tree forward more for the same amount of lift in the back cut. This means more pressure on the wedge. There is less room for the wedge much less for the bar and chain if you try to set the wedge then advance the cut. Small tees seem to spit the wedges out more. 
A common and easy trick is to drive your wedge from the side parallel to the hinge. You can make the backcut first then set the wedge then make the face cut being very careful to leave a good hinge. but if you misread the lean or overset the wedge you will have the tree set down as you make the face.
You can put in your face then start your back cut then bore from the back cut through the hinge, making sure to leave the corners, then set the wedge in the bore cut.
If the tree sets back and traps your saw in a small tree you can bore just above the closed kerf and tip the tree forward. G F Brenecks book on tree work available from Bailey's is a wealth of info on this subject and many other useful things.
Having said all that I don't think residential tree work is the place to learn to wedge trees.


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## Treeman587 (Apr 7, 2007)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Well, I ain't a tree guy (as clearance likes to point out ), but the physics is pretty straightforward here. The forces involved are simple to diagram. Treeman is right - back lean & front lean are completely different animals, and with back lean, a wedge _is_ putting vertical stress on the hinge. It can't NOT do so. Whether it's enough to cause failure is, of course, dependent on many variables.




I didn't mean to say that wedges are a recipe for disaster. But there are many variables that make for successful wedging. In the woods is one thing. Next to someones house is awholenother(yes that is one word where I come from). Thanks BRM for interpeting my method rather than attacking me like most of us seem to be so readily to do on here sometimes. I like most of you have to assess the situation on a daily basis. I think rope is safer, and most definately faster. To tell you the truth I dont even keep wedges in the dump truck. Every tree we cut is different. And we all came from different schools. My mentoring treeman freaked when he saw my new climbing gear. He asked me how much crap I was going to carry up the tree with me(I just realized that my avitar pic is the first day I was using it). I had to explain that is was a little more modern approach to climbing. Much like some of the felling techniques we discuss can be.


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