# For the Foresters... Well Anybody Interested in Forestry for that Matter.



## OlympicYJ (Oct 28, 2012)

Well I just got back yesterday from the Society of American Foresters National Convention. For those not familiar with SAF its the professional organisation for foresters. This year it was held in Spokane so right in the back yard and I was able to attend. Saw lots of familiar faces from the West Side and allot of new ones from around the country. There were 1,400 people in attendance with 400 of those being students. There were some pretty good workshop sessions even thought I didn't make many :msp_rolleyes:

Of particular interest to me was talk on mat logging in swamps in the south. Its the same thing they do on Swamp Loggers... using the timber as puncheon of sorts to skid across. Anyhoo was pretty interesting how they reduced the number of skid trails and the depth of compaction and the amount of hummock disturbance. But for me it was cool for the east coasties to admit they were using shovel logging  In base its the same principal out west just instead of building permanent gravel roads they were using the timber instead. Which would be much more cost effective because I don't think their roads would last because of soft soils and the cost would make logging prohibitive. You learn something new everyday.

Also had a blast with the after hours sessions as well!

Oh and the few Canucs in attendance were pretty cool too!


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## madhatte (Oct 28, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> using the timber as puncheon of sorts to skid across. Anyhoo was pretty interesting how they reduced the number of skid trails and the depth of compaction and the amount of hummock disturbance.



Corduroy roads, a 100-year-old PNW invention. Sha-Zammmm!


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 28, 2012)

Oh yea. Lousiana Tech I believe it was? had one guy there. He was also the one man quizbowl team... pretty chill guy. All the southern folk had vented columbia shirts with their school name on em. Well not all but most. Was good for a chuckle how they needed venting in Spokane.... guess it would come in handy in the muggy bar at night 

Although I might need one since next year its in Charleston haha


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## madhatte (Oct 28, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> I might need one since next year its in Charleston haha



FWIW -- I did some of my military schooling in Charleston and LOVED that town. Food, music, history, everything. It's a neat place. Might have to finagle my way to that convention.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 28, 2012)

madhatte said:


> FWIW -- I did some of my military schooling in Charleston and LOVED that town. Food, music, history, everything. It's a neat place. Might have to finagle my way to that convention.



Our advisor wants to raise enough money so we can go fishin! We've got some good fund raiser ideas kicking around too. I'm stoked for it and so is everyone else here at the U of I. I think they have some stuff planned at a historic plantation. Just vaguely remember hearing something about it.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 28, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Of particular interest to me was talk on mat logging in swamps in the south. Its the same thing they do on Swamp Loggers... using the timber as puncheon of sorts to skid across. Anyhoo was pretty interesting how they reduced the number of skid trails and the depth of compaction and the amount of hummock disturbance. But for me it was cool for the east coasties to admit they were using shovel logging  In base its the same principal out west just instead of building permanent gravel roads they were using the timber instead. Which would be much more cost effective because I don't think their roads would last because of soft soils and the cost would make logging prohibitive. You learn something new everyday.



a big difference is that swamp loggers then have to skid to where the trucks can get to- usually 1- 3 passes with the shovel between roads spaced at about 400'. vol/acre and the swamp thing make adding the skid cheaper than building a road. Glad there were some east coasters there


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## Humptulips (Oct 28, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> a big difference is that swamp loggers then have to skid to where the trucks can get to- usually 1- 3 passes with the shovel between roads spaced at about 400'. vol/acre and the swamp thing make adding the skid cheaper than building a road. Glad there were some east coasters there



You would be amazed how far some guys are shovel logging out here. I talked to one guy that said he was out 21 throws. Not sure how profitable that is but 400' is nothing.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 28, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> You would be amazed how far some guys are shovel logging out here. I talked to one guy that said he was out 21 throws. Not sure how profitable that is but 400' is nothing.



no, I believe that, and I'm a big fan of true shovelling, but these swamp blocks are big enough that its a skid.

1 swing= 50' stem (60' minus the 10' to heel it) + 50' stem + (25' machine reach x 2) plus 15' machine as it turns = 165' per swing. Sound right? Can't blame them. Shovel logging is best, where it can be done.


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## Humptulips (Oct 29, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> no, I believe that, and I'm a big fan of true shovelling, but these swamp blocks are big enough that its a skid.
> 
> 1 swing= 50' stem (60' minus the 10' to heel it) + 50' stem + (25' machine reach x 2) plus 15' machine as it turns = 165' per swing. Sound right? Can't blame them. Shovel logging is best, where it can be done.



Nope doesn't sound right. With all the tree lengthing going on you seldom see them heel a log and swing it.
The butts always towards the landing. Walk away from the pile as far as you can still reach, grab the butts and swing while dragging the logs to as far as you reach. 2x boom reach plus length of machine. More like 80' but your mileage may vary.


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## Oldtimer (Oct 29, 2012)

1400 foresters in one place....imagine the amount of logging that got done with all those self propelled roadblocks out of the way!


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## madhatte (Oct 29, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> self propelled roadblocks



Now, that's just unfair. I, for example, let the truck do most of the driving. Walking is hard work!


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 29, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Nope doesn't sound right. With all the tree lengthing going on you seldom see them heel a log and swing it.
> The butts always towards the landing. Walk away from the pile as far as you can still reach, grab the butts and swing while dragging the logs to as far as you reach. 2x boom reach plus length of machine. More like 80' but your mileage may vary.



Yeah I've only ever seen a shovel op heel logs once. Butts forward is easier on the machine, requires less effort because the small end is supported and the butts are toward the landing/road for processing.



Oldtimer said:


> 1400 foresters in one place....imagine the amount of logging that got done with all those self propelled roadblocks out of the way!



You know there were some guys from NH; maybe I sould give them a call... :msp_rolleyes:

Just remember were well connected self propelled road blocks


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## slowp (Oct 29, 2012)

We need coffee for fuel to self propel.


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## Oldtimer (Oct 29, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> You know there were some guys from NH; maybe I sould give them a call... :msp_rolleyes:
> 
> Just remember were well connected self propelled road blocks



I do not work for Foresters. :msp_tongue: Buy stumpage myself.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 29, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I do not work for Foresters. :msp_tongue: Buy stumpage myself.



Well then we shouldn't be any sort of road block to ya!


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## Oldtimer (Oct 30, 2012)

I was just thinking aboot my logging bretheren. They need all the breaks they can get!:msp_thumbup:


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## madhatte (Oct 30, 2012)

You guys wouldn't know where to cut if we weren't there with paint and flagging and legalese. It's a symbiosis.


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## Oldtimer (Oct 30, 2012)

A wonder how I have been able to log for 17+ years without a forester. 
Just dumb rookie luck is all.


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## madhatte (Oct 30, 2012)




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## Oldtimer (Oct 30, 2012)




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## hammerlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

madhatte said:


> You guys wouldn't know where to cut if we weren't there with paint and flagging and legalese. It's a symbiosis.



give a man a role of flagging and he thinks he's a ####ing cop!


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## hammerlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Nope doesn't sound right. With all the tree lengthing going on you seldom see them heel a log and swing it.
> The butts always towards the landing. Walk away from the pile as far as you can still reach, grab the butts and swing while dragging the logs to as far as you reach. 2x boom reach plus length of machine. More like 80' but your mileage may vary.



My math sounded high when I enterred it--- no you wouldn't heel and swing to where you've changed orientation though there can be heeling as the pass begins-- and no, indeed no heel from the small end. I have seen some mean end over end passes sliding the grapple down the stem as she goes. and some stem shuffle to increase the pass length, but its still not 165 is it. 

You are a real resource there, hope I know what you know one day


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## Humptulips (Oct 30, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> hope I know what you know one day



I hope you have higher aspirations then that. You're setting the bar pretty low.


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## madhatte (Oct 30, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> give a man a role of flagging and he thinks he's a ####ing cop!



jinglin' mah spurs right now


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## Gologit (Oct 30, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> give a man a role of flagging and he thinks he's a ####ing cop!



Give the new foresters _two_ rolls of flagging. Let's see if they can bring the unit corners in square.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 30, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Give the new foresters _two_ rolls of flagging. Let's see if they can bring the unit corners in square.



you sir I would love a good sparring with, nothing like a challenge of the wits. 

last one I tried to have an intelligent conversation with told me that I could get that far corner of junk on a convex slope I diplomatically elected not to cut at all by running a skyline perpendicular and across the first five lines logged. I had to bite my tongue when that was suggested! Yes, I could get it that way. Yes. then again, when i jumped out of my truck on my way out when he was visiting the job to say hello and he looked at my crocs and asked if I cut in those, damn, he makes it hard not ot be a completely rude smartass. When he saw my 34" .063 bar on a hopped up 660, and said most folks around here run shorter bars I said " there's alot of things I do different, thats the reason I'm here"

gov't wuss. nothing meant against the good folks who know their ####, but the weak ones, get out of my way. I liek having the good ones around, they actually answer my questions so I don't have to spend the time wandering around for answers myself!


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## wowzers (Oct 31, 2012)

hammerlogging said:


> When he saw my 34" .063 bar on a hopped up 660, and said most folks around here run shorter bars I said " there's alot of things I do different, thats the reason I'm here"



That is some funny stuff there. State guy?


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## StihlKiwi (Oct 31, 2012)

Are FS and other govt. foresters edumacated the same as other foresters in the states?
Sounds like they're less popular, but I like to think thats because of who they work for, not what they do..


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## hammerlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

some are great and its as with anything, you have to go person by person. But, given the circumstances, sometimes a career gov't forester can have a less reasonable approach to problem solving having never had to fight to make a living, the capitalist in the free market is driven to a different mindset.


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## StihlKiwi (Oct 31, 2012)

Knowing a few people that work for the crown, that makes sense. Career job seems to mean a different thing to them.
Good thing forestry was pretty much all privatised here in the late 80's/early 90's, I'd much rather work for a company than the govt.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 31, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Knowing a few people that work for the crown, that makes sense. Career job seems to mean a different thing to them.
> Good thing forestry was pretty much all privatised here in the late 80's/early 90's, I'd much rather work for a company than the govt.



I'm a Technical Forester that means 2yrs of education here. I'm working on my last two for a four yr Bachelors of Science in Forest Resources with a minor in Operations. Ok now we have some good folks on here that have and do work for the government. Most top notch foresters go to the private companies. In addition they can't stand government bureaucracy and the politics involved. Trust me this is a trend I've been observing for a while now...

There is a different mindset especially when it comes to regulatory folks such as those that work for a State DNR. There used to be some really good forestry professionals that worked for the Feds; even a hand full of em left too. 

Most of the problem has to do with the education system and where you're drawing your foresters from. Guys like me that grew up in timber country (more rural) gravitate towards private. People from more urban areas tend to gravitate toward your government jobs. The universities now days don't offer true forestry degrees. They have become very biology/ecosystem management based. A major emphasis in teaching harvesting and field skills has fallen at the universities and that affects your quality of foresters. Most of this is made up for with experience and lessons learned from the old guard. Although a past boss came from Seattle and he was a great guy. Goofy but a good guy and knows his stuff.

Oh and if I ran into a faller runin a 34 and a modded 660 I'd probably ask what all he had done and who did the work! Oh wait I've already done this!


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## slowp (Oct 31, 2012)

I retired from the gubmint. I'm what the loggers call a forester, but real foresters won't call me that. I merely have a 2 year degree plus a quickie, 10 week forest engineering course (that Kiwis were sometimes sent here to go to) and experiences.

I ended up working for the FS because, well, it was 1976 and nobody else HAD to hire women. Yes, I'm an affirmative action hire. I wanted to work in forestry. 

My family was not fond of the Forest Service. My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle had problems with them. He leased a grazing allotment. My dad? Well he worked in powerline construction and sometimes came home early because the FS shut them down due to fire danger all around. 

Previously, I'd worked in orchards for minimum wage and piece work. So getting paid twice as much to plant trees was great. While working seasonally for the FS, I'd ski bum in the winter. I was a liftie and a ski instructor. 

Let me see, before becoming the evil sale administrator, I had a background in the usual timber things. I also wished I knew more about logging methods when I marked timber. 

And yes, I did a lot of stupid stuff, as I'll bet a lot of you did. We survived and learned. 

I liked working around logging, because I was always learning something new. Maybe that's it. If you can keep on learning, it makes it easier to get out of that warm, dry, pickup into horizontal sleet. 

I kind of miss that part of the job. Now the really bad part of the FS-and it is getting worse, is that timber is considered, by the new employees--mostly with 'ology and recreation backgrounds and interests, to be the monster relative that you keep chained up in the attic and ignore except for the occasional meal. Even though there is a hard target to meet, they do not consider that to be their "real" job and do the minimum or prescribe things that just don't make sense or are likely to cause costs to go up. Case in point: Silt fencing required around the edges of landings. Like that's going to hold up with logs dragging over the top. Maybe it has somewhere and I haven't learned about it? Please tell me if any of you work this way.

I could not get any of those folks to go out on the ground and see what actually goes on. Here they are planning--making rules for equipment and logging systems, and they have no idea what they are talking about. Disclaimer: I'm talking locally. There are exceptions--just not here. I took a _Loggers World _to one meeting so I could show them pictures of a feller buncher and a loader. One guy did not know that they are different pieces of equipment. But he was describing how they must work. From a recent talk with a new sale administrator, that same 'ologist did not pay attention and still thinks they are the same piece of equipment.:bang:

Then folks like me have to try to work out all their demands so logging can happen and hopefully in an economic fashion, or we won't have logging anymore. That last part is looking more and more likely. The FS here is once again or maybe it never stopped? reorganizing. That means that they get rid of the folks who do the ground work, and keep the folks who get paid the most, and might get promotions because of their downsizing efforts. 

If you do your job, because you are working around guys who must produce or go broke, you have to be pretty callous to delay things purposely. There are some things that are biggies, and you must stop operations for, but for the less serious stuff, a solution could often be figured out on the ground. I took heat for letting rock get shot for road construction during Spotted Owl nesting breeding season, moving the location of roads, and the biggest pain was having landings on a busy, paved, tourist route. I also had a couple of loggers try to get me fired. One even pulled the political strings he had, but at that place, I had good support even as he tried to go over people's heads. 

When I retired, I found out that the loggers really liked how I got out to the units early in the morning. Thats a good thing to do. If you beat the crew, you might find a good parking spot, except the falling gods will show up after you and the rigging crew and demand you move so *they *can park there.:msp_smile:

Right now there is a shortage of folks doing what I did. If you can handle the BS, and prima donnas, and the logger constantly telling how screwed up your employer is, it might be a good thing to get into. But it is also a gamble, timber management on FS ground is a bit shaky as far as going on into the future.


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## madhatte (Oct 31, 2012)

I've mentioned before that I have no FORMAL education in Forestry. My education is pretty broad. I like to think of it as three very separate, different educations: Forest Ecology, Nuclear Engineering, Photography. I ended up in Forestry when I got kicked out of school during my second senior year in college and discovered that a tree nerd with no degree can't get a job as a tree nerd, so I ended up working as a contract forestry technician. Did that for a few years before I joined the Navy and loved the work. When I got out of the Navy, I finished my degrees and went right back to work in the woods, first as a biological technician and finally in the position I'm in now, "Forestry Technician". That's right, like slowp, "real" foresters won't regard me as a peer either. 

What I find useful, though, is that having done time as a contractor and as Navy enlisted, I understand both the commercial need to produce and the need to have and enforce a rigid framework of rules that keep things moving. I'm also pretty comfortable dealing with... err... "challenging" personality types. 

Many times in staff meetings a contract is proposed which has some weird language that may appear to serve the needs of my office, but which would make the job extremely unattractive. It's easy for me to say "Ain't no way I'd bid on that", and then the idea is killed before it ever leaves the room. Likewise, often logging crews ask, "Why did you guys mark like this?" and I can explain exactly what we were thinking. 

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm trying to serve the land as well as possible. The people involved in serving that land are tools, sometimes allies and sometimes obstacles, to achieving that service.


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 31, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Corduroy roads, a 100-year-old PNW invention. Sha-Zammmm!



Ahem...Horses were dragging logs over corduroy roads here in the upper midwest long before the first hippie moved to Cali, or the first Starbucks store sprouted in WA. For that matter, I'd guess the swamps back east saw em long before we did...

oke::msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:


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## madhatte (Oct 31, 2012)

Huh. Always heard that was a Seattle thing, Yesler Way and Skid Road and dogfish oil greasers and all, circa 1880-ish. Maybe our local references are a bit... err... "regionally biased"? I'd cite Speidel but it sounds as if he's off-base by a bit.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express


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## wowzers (Oct 31, 2012)

Slowp, were you a ski bunny? I started out simillar to Wes and went to a tech school worked for a while and realized the sky wasn't the limit with a two year degree so I went back and finished my Bachelors. Upon graduating there I realized a knew crap about logging so I went logging. I just recently left my logging job to take a forester job again and I already miss it. I know it will be good for me long term but I really do think it gets in your blood.


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## slowp (Oct 31, 2012)

I have been skiing off and on since I was a fourth grader. We skied if my dad had work in the winter. If he didn't we didn't ski. I have a season pass for this winter. I don't go as fast as I used to, and I don't ski the steeps or bumps like I used to...it can be depressing to think about that. 

I didn't have the option to go logging to learn it. I did sneak down and set chokers for part of a day, and another time, I lost patience and started unhooking logs to help get a sale DONE. But I did ask a lot of questions when I was down in the unit checking stuff or chasing after the hooktender to go OK tailholds.


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## forestryworks (Oct 31, 2012)

wowzers said:


> I know it will be good for me long term



Good thinking.

The future is shaky on all fronts.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

Thank you SlowP and Madhatte.

I actually prefer working FS to private, in part because the bar is set higher. Sometimes, depending on who shows up, you just have to roll your eyes.


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## q-tip jr (Oct 31, 2012)

Steve NW WI said:


> Ahem...Horses were dragging logs over corduroy roads here in the upper midwest long before the first hippie moved to Cali, or the first Starbucks store sprouted in WA. For that matter, I'd guess the swamps back east saw em long before we did...
> 
> oke::msp_biggrin::msp_biggrin:



the ones we worked over top of in Maine in the early 80's must have been imported.... several inches of peat etc on top of them would make them pretty darn old....


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## northmanlogging (Oct 31, 2012)

Its nice to hear that the people making the "plan" actually trying to learn the other end of the spectrum, in machining the engineers always want something that while possible on paper its either impractical or just plain made up nonsense. Don't get me started an all this ISO 9001 junk that has been going around for a few years, might as well go back to black smithing, or get out of it entirely and focus on logging, (machining got me out of logging, everything moves in circles) and the metric system is for people that can't do simple math, going away now...


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 1, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Its nice to hear that the people making the "plan" actually trying to learn the other end of the spectrum, in machining the engineers always want something that while possible on paper its either impractical or just plain made up nonsense. Don't get me started an all this ISO 9001 junk that has been going around for a few years, might as well go back to black smithing, or get out of it entirely and focus on logging, (machining got me out of logging, everything moves in circles) and the metric system is for people that can't do simple math, going away now...



For sure that is the best way. Back in the day a young guy went through the Simpson Plywood plant (now a Simpson door plant) in McCleary and worked his way through all the jobs in the plant. My grandpa was the one who taught him how to patch plywood. Well my grandpa knew at the time he was too sharp to be working in a plywood plant, he could tell he was educated. Well several years later that young guy was the President of Simpson. Apparently his one condition on accepting the job was that he would work his way through all the jobs the company had. When I say all I mean from settin chokers to workin in the mills. Pretty cool story, figured I'd share it. Always stuck with me. If you don't know or even try and understand what the other guy does you don't have any business judging what he does.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 2, 2012)

Sometimes its better to keep yer mouth shut and eyes and ears open, hard to hear or see whats going on if you're constantly correcting the teacher, even if they are wrong you learned something. I love the jerks that ask a question and before I'm done giving my answer they are telling me I'm wrong. I've learned to walk away... its more fun to watch them swing on their end of the rope, than to get mad and spend the rest of the day in a bad mood or jail... although it would make me feel really good to sock em in the mouth a couple times... does this mean I'm getting old?


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## slowp (Nov 2, 2012)

I created a stir when I showed up with a chainsaw (the borrowed one before Twinkle) in the back of my pickup. 

It was very good of the guys to answer my questions without any or very little teasing. Bribing loggers with chocolate chip oat meal cookies will do wonders!


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## northmanlogging (Nov 2, 2012)

Teasing shows they care... no really its does


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## Jacob J. (Nov 2, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Are FS and other govt. foresters edumacated the same as other foresters in the states?
> Sounds like they're less popular, but I like to think thats because of who they work for, not what they do..



Like Madhatte said, educations vary. Professional Foresters (i.e. those working for the government in the professional forestry classification) have a four-year degree or better in Natural Resource Management, Forestry Engineering, or some related natural resource discipline. Some have unrelated degrees and take additional classes to meet the requirements of the series (0460.) 0462 is "Forestry Technician," a job classification used for the majority of government workers in land-management fields. Often these folks (such as myself) have worked in the woods and have some education but not enough to be a professional forester. Firefighters, tree-marking crews, Silviculture crews, and even some wildlife people fall under forestry technician. We qualify for positions through a combination of education and documented experience. 

Some people get a Natural Resource Management degree and migrate that over to a specialty position, like a fire ecologist or fuels specialist. My FMO (fire management officer) has a NRM degree and is classified under 0401- General Natural Resource Management and Biological Sciences, another "professional" series. One individual who was on my fire crew for years obtained a four-year Forestry Engineering degree and used that to get a professional forestry job in private industry with a base salary starting at $15k/year higher than what he would have got with the government. 

How much experience one garners in a particular series in the government dictates the next step that individual will be able to move to. For example, most of my government experience is under 0462, although I have some experience under 0301-General Administration, which potentially qualifies me for a purely administrative position like purchasing agent or contracting officer.


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## Samlock (Nov 4, 2012)

That sounds like truly bureaucratic scheme to me, Jacob.

Two weeks ago I signed in a one year educational program, which will officially qualify me as something you would call a forest technician. I already have education needed, but that program will sort of wrap the package together - demerits of a cutter and a forester combined in a single person.


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## floyd (Nov 4, 2012)

It would have been a good thing had some of the wonder foresters I met had a clue about falling. Then maybe the one tree in the middle of 16 would not be marked like you are a damn magician & can fall that tree straight up.


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## TreeGuyHR (Nov 12, 2012)

Hey all:

For the loggers here:

Would you rather bid on a contract based on stumpage, or be paid based on a fixed rate per thousand?

I recently prepared some rough contracts for a client to salvage storm broken or tipped over Doug-fir (one is a service contract to remove the wood, and one is a sales contract for the log buyer). 

Did the cruise myself: 99MBF Doug-fir, and 3 MBF Grand fir. Some roads have to be re-built and a small portion built from scratch. I also prepared the layout and map.

I was in Spokane too, but at the WFCA workshop on timberland appraisal. Some foresters there suggested that I was being too complicated preparing two contracts; I need to get this figured out, as my signature is on the logging permit, and I want to swap my name for the logging company. Which leaves a third option: I could sub out to a logging company, but again, more complications.

So, you may be wondering, why is this forester asking such basic questions? Answer: this is my first timber sale I am preparing. I am one of those " 'ologists" (Forest Ecology, focused on entomology and pathology), and have my own consulting arborist company with a tree service side to it. 

I climb too. The best part is I can "call it" like I did today : rain/snow and 30's, so no, climbing can wait until tomorrow. On to my third cup of coffee and some desk work (once I leave this site:msp_biggrin:


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## floyd (Nov 15, 2012)

YOu want it really bad. Smokejumper falling for my team. 80'stick. perpendicular to the road...in a willow patch , cut off1'above the ground.

My teams were good. But they could not take that 80' log 20'to the other side of the road, swing it 90 degrees & go. There is a small matter of the 60' behind them that has no articulation at 45'.

Then he got pissed because I was trimming his pig ears that were hanging me up at the landing.

Then he told me he could get a big old skidder in there. 

I drove the team to the trlr, loaded them told him what he owed me & left.





Probably can't have too much contract. Talk to the boys in The Dalles at State Forest Service. They have some sample contract forms.


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