# Timber Fallers (Cottonwood)



## cottonwood1 (Jun 7, 2012)

Hello all,
I was wondering if any fallers out there do Cottonwood cutting? I am doing a large falling project for the Forest service cutting timber for the oil workers to use. I use a 044 30" and a 394 33" both modded. It has been a bit more of a test than i thought. The wood closes so fast and tries to stop your saw the whole time. Also tries to split or rip before you can finish your cut. Wondering what you are running for saws and if I am the only one that has seen this when cutting this wood? I am only speaking about the larger trees, 3-4ft and bigger. Thanks to all!!


----------



## Metals406 (Jun 7, 2012)

cottonwood1 said:


> Hello all,
> I was wondering if any fallers out there do Cottonwood cutting? I am doing a large falling project for the Forest service cutting timber for the oil workers to use. I use a 044 30" and a 394 33" both modded. It has been a bit more of a test than i thought. The wood closes so fast and tries to stop your saw the whole time. Also tries to split or rip before you can finish your cut. Wondering what you are running for saws and if I am the only one that has seen this when cutting this wood? I am only speaking about the larger trees, 3-4ft and bigger. Thanks to all!!



Tarzantree and Cedarkerf have cut chit loads of Cottonwood.

I've cut a fair piece myself. . . Sounds like what you're experiencing is just the nature of the beast.

My advice, backup the tree with a couple wedges to help keep the back-cut open. . . Although, it may take more than a couple -- Cottonwood can compress your wedges like they're not even in there.

You might try PMing one of those two, and picking their brain.

What do the oil guys need with Cottonwood anyway?? I know it's good trailer decking, and fer making pallets.


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 7, 2012)

They are using it for rig mats and yes trailer beds mainly. I have been seeing the wedges just get absorbed. Seems like stacking them and using the larger ones is the only route that works. That and the saw has to be fast as possible to get the cut done before it has time to swell. Nothing like pine thats for sure. The smallers ones are easy and no issue.


----------



## Metals406 (Jun 7, 2012)

cottonwood1 said:


> They are using it for rig mats and yes trailer beds mainly. I have been seeing the wedges just get absorbed. Seems like stacking them and using the larger ones is the only route that works. That and the saw has to be fast as possible to get the cut done before it has time to swell. Nothing like pine thats for sure. The smallers ones are easy and no issue.



Yup, sounds like Cottonwood. . . Cedarkerf was telling us that he had cut up a big one, and left a big post in the back. The tree sat down and pushed the post into the stump. 

Not sure if it would work for every tree, but you might cut a deeper face, to undermine the trees gravity, and help it want to go over as you're sawing it up?

The problem is point-loading -- the fibers just can't take it. Spreading the load out would be the only answer, fer wedges anyway.

You could buy some bull line and a Big Shot to tie a line in all the big ones, and pull them over. 

You should take some pictures or make a video. . . We like that here.


----------



## paccity (Jun 7, 2012)

like metals said they are a fibery pos. they are worse in the spring and summer when they are pulling lotts of water. many wedges and work a wide curf. and they smell like horse pizz.


----------



## stikine (Jun 7, 2012)

If you are not already doing so, try some full skip, square chisel, .404 chain on the big bar. It will cut a wider kerf and clear the chips a bit better.


----------



## mdavlee (Jun 7, 2012)

If you can find some of the oregon durapro or CJX square ground it's a .404" sized cutter on a 3/8" chassis.


----------



## Gologit (Jun 7, 2012)

One thing that helps on super soft wood is wide-kerfing your back cut. That helps give you a little wiggle room.
If you can lay three wedges side by side, or even side wedge, it gives you some extra room. I've also seen guys stick a long piece, longer than the diameter of the tree, of 1x6 parallel with the back cut into the kerf. 

The guys talking about fast chain or 404 chain are right, too.


----------



## Joe46 (Jun 7, 2012)

I never cut an abundance of Cottonwood, but what I did cut was done with a 2100 Husky, 36" bar running full skip chisel .404 Carleton chain. That was a couple of centuries ago


----------



## Gologit (Jun 7, 2012)

Joe46 said:


> I never cut an abundance of Cottonwood, but what I did cut was done with a 2100 Husky, 36" bar running full skip chisel .404 Carleton chain. That was a couple of centuries ago



I never cut much of it either...not when I could get out of it. That stuff is just plain nasty.  You go home at night smelling like you've been peed on all day.


----------



## bigalalexander (Jun 7, 2012)

*cottonwood*



Joe46 said:


> I never cut an abundance of Cottonwood, but what I did cut was done with a 2100 Husky, 36" bar running full skip chisel .404 Carleton chain. That was a couple of centuries ago



The .404 will help for sure. Good deep face . dont try to fight the lay of the tree to to much . take about three double taper wedges smooth side by side . set your wedges early and bore back in to widen your kerf out . you can use 3/8 chain fine to .


----------



## arborealbuffoon (Jun 8, 2012)

I have never heard of the FS having timber sales involving cottonwoods. Learn something every day, I guess.


----------



## ShadeTreeWelder (Jun 8, 2012)

Cottonwood sucks, only worse tree is willow. Both soft and full of water. 
I really do not have much to add other than I hate cutting them. I think 
80% of the trees here are cotton wood. I have lost a 36" bar to one of 
them that decided to sit on my back cut.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

Since Oregon stopped making DuraPro chain 404 is all you can get. Which isn't a bad thing. . It works fine on any saw 50 cc and up. been there done that Lots. Regular kerf 3/8 is the problem. It just doesn't cut a wide enough kerf for the bar to move around freely in. 7 tooth. full comp or full skip. Oregon #68 series.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

the 59 series 404 would be good in cottonwood also.


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 8, 2012)

I have been running 404 on the 394xp with a 33inch bar, not skip so that will be next. Does seem to do the best out of the options. I did laugh when one of you said it sticks, that is VERY true. When the day is done you are wet from the water and smell a little funkie. In an odd way it is fun to cut it because you learn a lot from tough wood. On the production side it sucks because every tree is fighting you. 

What had happenned is we had a huge flood here and the trees got damage causing dangerous situations so the FS had to make a decision on how to deal with the wood that is still good, but leaning or had roots loosen. So they worked with the Oil and found out that they could use the wood for its absorbing ability, and trailer beds. I quess it will be all replanted with new and better timber and still use the Cottonwood for something now. Its a very odd situation because they dont normally do that. not sure if it is a grant they did or what. I dont care really beings I am getting to cut and get paid. LOL!!:msp_smile:

Yesterday on a private cutting job i took one that was a few inches short of 5ft across down. Biggest one for me to date. Sure made the ground rock when it hit. I will try to take some pictures when I can to show anyone that wants to see the cutting. 

Thanks for the help and keep them coming from the cutters, I have been trying all the recommendations as I read them and applying them as I go. Cut a lot of pine in SD and MT, but this is a different beast.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

We found that by the time a chain was half wore out it was useless in Poplar and cottonwood. 
. If you take a few licks off your rider file off the outside of the riders / depth gauges it helps the cutters to take a wider kerf. take your d.gs. down to 35 or 40 thousands. 
Is there mud or grit in the bark from the flood at stump height? 
about all you can do for that is use your ax to chop the bark off. 
If they are twisted, thats a whole nother problem. 
I smashed a relatively new Ace Morgan 394 Hot rod under a cottonwood in Seward. The timber was frozen so it cut ok but I didn't know how much 1 big limb would counteract the obvious lean of the tree. . The snow was about 4' deep, wet coastal snow. I had it all packed around the tree and a run trail. But the tree fellmore than 140 degrees away from the lean because of 1 big limb. I had thot I could use a kerf dutchman to swing it into the face which was about 60-70 degrees to the right of the obvious lean .. 
If it wouldn't have been for the snow I would have hung onto the starter handle and when the tree realeased its hold on the saw for a split second I would have pulled the power head clear. the tree was around 4' on the stump. 
Instead I said bye to the saw and got out of there as best I could.


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Tramp
Some of the timber has sand in it, but yes I use my ax to take the bark off first. I will do what you said on the chain and see how that works too. I am working on my saws today for tomorrow and keep running in to read what you are all saying. Be nice to spend a day with some of you to learn from others and how they do thier tricks. On your saw i would agree it hurts to wreck a saw but you can replace them, I have seen many odd things with these trees they will hold so long and than do something you never planned on. Stay safe!!


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

We have some good size stands of cottonwood along the coast. Northern Southeast and south central Alaska. places that tend to be infested with brown bear in the summer. I've seen Cottonwood over 7' on the stump. but so far 5' is the biggest I've fell. . If you can some pics would be great ! .


----------



## paccity (Jun 8, 2012)

heres some of the ones in our local park got the last two bids on removing them all .bad tops. will be going down in a couple weeks to do another section . these were some pealers and lumber wet and heavey.


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Tramp,
I will do my best to get some pictures for you. I have seen some of the ones you talked about in AK. I was up that way for the military. If you have any of the big ones from there I would love to see them as well. three inches short of 5ft is my max to date and it was to a non northwest faller huge!!


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

I may have some pics on an old phone .. . Taking pics wasn't something we did much of in the bushlin days. Everything was about cuttin timber and as much of it as possible. !! .


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 8, 2012)

Ya know, oddly enuf. Cottonwood makes pretty good firewood when its dry. . Theres a bunch of Cotton wood down in the Tiekle River. drainage. and on the flats below Thompson Pass and above Valdez .


----------



## ShaneLogs (Jun 8, 2012)

paccity said:


> heres some of the ones in our local park got the last two bids on removing them all .bad tops. will be going down in a couple weeks to do another section . these were some pealers and lumber wet and heavey.



Looks like you have some more cutting to do! Good job overall!


----------



## madhatte (Jun 8, 2012)

paccity said:


> these were some pealers and lumber wet and heavey



Geeze, man, that's some big, sloppy wood. I don't envy you one bit!


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 11, 2012)

It does work for firewood and I cut some each year for the firewood guys. Beings we dont have any large wood, but Cottonwood I am happy to cut the wet smelly stuff cause it is money. I wish I could have done same cutting in Ak while I was up there. Nice timber in that state!!

Paccity,
Got some large trees there good work!!


----------



## OlympicYJ (Jun 11, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya know, oddly enuf. Cottonwood makes pretty good firewood when its dry. . Theres a bunch of Cotton wood down in the Tiekle River. drainage. and on the flats below Thompson Pass and above Valdez .



There's some fair sized ones even in the interrior too. Thinkin of a place just south of Cantwell off the Parks :cool2:


----------



## Cedarkerf (Jun 11, 2012)

cottonwood1 said:


> It does work for firewood and I cut some each year for the firewood guys. Beings we dont have any large wood, but Cottonwood I am happy to cut the wet smelly stuff cause it is money. I wish I could have done same cutting in Ak while I was up there. Nice timber in that state!!
> 
> Paccity,
> Got some large trees there good work!!



Cottonwood out here is pretty useless. The few mills that say theyll take state "will take cottonwood at no value" so its a place to dump it if you wanna pay the deisel bill. Out here its so wet that by the time it drys out its rotten so most of us dont even consider it for fire wood.


----------



## paccity (Jun 11, 2012)

cedarkurf should change his handle to cottoncurf with all the cottonwood he's been in lately  but i wish the park manager would let us cut them in the winter . by the time we do the next section they will be gushing.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Jun 11, 2012)

Might as well call myself horse pisskerf


----------



## paccity (Jun 11, 2012)

well i wouldn't go that far. you seem like a nice enough feller.


----------



## Gologit (Jun 11, 2012)

paccity said:


> well i wouldn't go that far. you seem like a nice enough feller.



Who? I was thinking about changing his avatar and username but I couldn't find a picture of a horse peeing on saw. Besides, he's too big and I'm too slow to make him mad at me.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 11, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> There's some fair sized ones even in the interrior too. Thinkin of a place just south of Cantwell off the Parks :cool2:



oddly enough, thats one part of the state I've not been to yet.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Jun 11, 2012)

Oh haha well need to schedule more vacation time in Anchorage! lol


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 12, 2012)

I spoke with a faller in WA a few years back that was clearing cottonwood out on a job site, he showed me some of the trees and they were pouring water out. Ours get like that in early spring, but for the most part are not nearly as wet as what I seen there. Interesting how they can be, in different parts. I would love to have some of those big cedars out this way. Our only good wood for building is lodgpole pine. Cut lots of it but nothing gets too big here. So beings the cottonwood is cheap and tons of it that is what I end up with the most. This year is the first year I have cut in the summer, I can say I am not a fan. Hot, humid and LOTS of TICKS!!!


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 12, 2012)

How do you deal with the ticks? ? Don't they carry some desease ?


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 12, 2012)

They carry lyme disease, and it can be nasty. Well for me beings I was in the military I have military grade bug spray similar to DEET. I also use tick collars on my legs, but you have to use your head and make sure they dont touch your skin as they can burn the skin bad! Seen it and it isnt cool looking LOL. This year for us they are bad, I was out the other day working and counted 45 of them on me by 3 in the afternoon.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Jun 12, 2012)

cottonwood1 said:


> This year for us they are bad, I was out the other day working and counted 45 of them on me by 3 in the afternoon.



:msp_scared: Yea I think ima live somewhere where the ticks aren't that bad! Worst time for ticks around here for a human is after an elk gets dropped and you gotta skin it out... litterly see a hundred ticks crawlin around on the shop floor after ya get the bugger skinned. Had a few on me never bit me though.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 12, 2012)

I yi yi. . . yukalooy

no thanks
I'll stick with skeeters, white socks, no seeums, and gnats. Deet and a head net takes care of them.


----------



## ShaneLogs (Jun 12, 2012)

The ticks aren't to bad where I live at here in Maine.


----------



## forestryworks (Jun 12, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> How do you deal with the ticks? ? Don't they carry some desease ?



A good prescribed burn wipes 'em out.


----------



## ShaneLogs (Jun 13, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> a good prescribed burn wipes 'em out.



x2.


----------



## Samlock (Jun 13, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> I'll stick with skeeters, white socks, * no seeums*, and gnats. Deet and a head net takes care of them.



No seeums.... I've never heard that expression before, yet I think I know what you mean. Worst of them all. I've got nothing to stop them, they're everywhere under your clothing, when you hit the right spot.

Here ticks are spreading Lyme's disease and brain fever too. Most likely paralysing or lethal brain fever, but I'm vaccinated against it. During the tick season I just check the certain spots ticks like to attach onto, pull them out and draw a circle around the biting mark with a permanent pen. That's how I can observe the biting marks a week or two. If some rash appears inside the circle, I know that may be Lyme's and I'll go to see a medicine man.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Jun 13, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> A good prescribed burn wipes 'em out.



Aww man don't get my wishful thinkin goin! Wish we could still broadcast burn over here :msp_mad:


----------



## tramp bushler (Jun 13, 2012)

Sam; thats Horrible! If a bug bite did that up here Alaska would be uninhabited.

Noseeums are kind of the morning and evening pest. hard to see them


----------



## gink595 (Jun 13, 2012)

Here is one I dropped a month or so ago, amish guy bought it for making pallet lumber.


----------



## Rounder (Jun 13, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> How do you deal with the ticks? ? Don't they carry some desease ?



I was in the landing one time, and the yarder operator baled out of the machine as soon as he had the turn in the deck. Hits the ground, drops his trousers and starts digging around his backside. 

Just as the turn was coming in, he felt a tick descending down his ass crack. I laughed a little.......


----------



## hardpan (Jun 14, 2012)

Samlock said:


> No seeums.... I've never heard that expression before, yet I think I know what you mean. Worst of them all. I've got nothing to stop them, they're everywhere under your clothing, when you hit the right spot.
> 
> Here ticks are spreading Lyme's disease and brain fever too. Most likely paralysing or lethal brain fever, but I'm vaccinated against it. During the tick season I just check the certain spots ticks like to attach onto, pull them out and draw a circle around the biting mark with a permanent pen. That's how I can observe the biting marks a week or two. If some rash appears inside the circle, I know that may be Lyme's and I'll go to see a medicine man.



Around here we have 2 basic types of ticks and I don't know the correct names but we call them turkey ticks and dog ticks. Dog ticks have been here forever and commonly found on dogs (of course) and can swell to half the size of a marble or more. The turkey ticks are a newer pest and are much worse and flat out dangerous in that they carry the Lyme disease. They are about the size of a pin head (the type of pin used to hold cloth together temporarily) and are very toxic. I've had 6 or 8 embedded in me already this year. They will raise a welt the diameter of a dime to a quarter and after removal it may take a month for the mark to disappear. Once I had nearly 100 buried in me at one time and after removal I was sick for 3 weeks with a low grade fever, constantly half asleep and aching all over. It sucked going to work every day feeling like that. Those turkey ticks are bad news. I have heard of a couple people locally with Lyme disease and they have been literally disabled for years. It is difficult to diagnose and the disease had progressed before treatment started.

I also got the vaccinations against Lyme disease many years ago (which was 2 shots a year apart) but since then I have read that the shots really do not provide the protection that was intended. I don't know what the truth is on that. I use Deet and watch for a rash or bulls eye red markings.


----------



## 1969cj-5 (Jun 14, 2012)

gink595 said:


> Here is one I dropped a month or so ago, amish guy bought it for making pallet lumber.



What did ya get for it BF wise?


----------



## cottonwood1 (Jun 19, 2012)

Nice tree there!


----------



## hdbill (Nov 16, 2012)

Gologit said:


> I never cut much of it either...not when I could get out of it. That stuff is just plain nasty.  You go home at night smelling like you've been peed on all day.




Some folks use cottonwood and willow to heat with, I cant see how they do it, I tried it in my shop stove and it smelled like pi$$ing on the campfire


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 16, 2012)

Most of the cottonwood up here doesn't stink at all. Once in a while I cut a stinky one but not too often. I think it has to do with the water where they grow
.


----------



## arborealbuffoon (Nov 16, 2012)

I have also noticed that when cutting a big wet one, all that water kinda puts the sawdust into a slurry form. This makes it hard for the saw to clear chips, and the stuff builds up in the bar groove really quick. I've had it completely stall my 394 by plugging it up, and of course then your oiler function is severely diminished. I am getting to the point that I usually pass on the 60 inch turds (cottonwood, silver maple, and willow generally). Stuff can be so heavy that I've also seen a barko loader refuse to lift a turd 12 feet long by 5 or so feet around. PITA for sure.....


----------



## gjersy (Nov 16, 2012)

The big cottonwoods around here seem to always have ring shake, the smaller ones are good for pallets though. My bud from Wyoming said they loved it out there for hay wagons, he thinks the lumber would rot quickly here in WI due to the humidity. It sure does stink, kinda like septic pew.


----------



## TreeGuyHR (Nov 16, 2012)

I posted these pics of my crew cutting two white cottonwood clumps in Oregon. These are the non-natve ornamental kind. The local black cottonwood is more common, and they can be monsters as well -- with long straight trunks. 

View attachment 262471
View attachment 262472
View attachment 262473
View attachment 262474


I cut some black cottonwood leaners near a home, and learned that doubling the holding wood is a good idea -- every one "split the difference" between my face cut and the lean because they tore off sooner that I had expected. Still missed the house


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 16, 2012)

A Siswheel is one of the best aids for getting all these softer hardwoods to come around. EVen doubling the holding wood doesn't get it done. But a big siswheel in conjunction with more holding wood will.


----------



## Cedarkerf (Nov 17, 2012)

arborealbuffoon said:


> I have also noticed that when cutting a big wet one, all that water kinda puts the sawdust into a slurry form. This makes it hard for the saw to clear chips, and the stuff builds up in the bar groove really quick. I've had it completely stall my 394 by plugging it up, and of course then your oiler function is severely diminished. I am getting to the point that I usually pass on the 60 inch turds (cottonwood, silver maple, and willow generally). Stuff can be so heavy that I've also seen a barko loader refuse to lift a turd 12 feet long by 5 or so feet around. PITA for sure.....



Kinda like this this one self cleared


----------



## chaikwa (Nov 18, 2012)

arborealbuffoon said:


> I have also noticed that when cutting a big wet one...


Oh, you're talking about trees, aren't you. For a split-second there all I could think of was a bodily function. Or MALfunction.

I'm cutting cottonwood right now. It's wet, heavy and generally a royal pain. Only thing worse than cutting it down is sawing it into lumber, which I am also doing. The stuff has so much internal tension that getting a straight dimensioned piece of lumber out of it is almost impossible.


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 18, 2012)

First Cottonwood I cut was at Farleyville, very damp stuff.


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 19, 2012)

Hey Randy ; nice looking saw. ! :msp_thumbup:


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 19, 2012)

I have spent time with two 5 cube Solos, that 680 and a 681, both cut like demons.


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 19, 2012)

The 681 Solo's I had cut real good. They had other problems tho. They didn't like 30 below or colder weather and wernt built heavy duty enough for 36" bars. . But, that was me. 

The best chain I ever found for cottonwood was semi or full skip 404 . Stihl 404 chisel bit from the early 90s cut a great big wide kerf and worked great. The Oregon DuraPro 3/8 was real good in cottonwood and poplar also.


----------

