# Dolmar 421, Stihl 250/251, 241 or 261



## Michaelmj11 (Jan 14, 2016)

First off, I want to ask 2 questions: which saw/brand. AND can I use the same 20 inch chains I use on my MS 661??

I just got finished doing 3 weeks of mission clean up work after the tornadoes that hit Mississippi on Dec 23.

I have a MS 661, which I Love. It cuts through anything, as long as I can hold it up. I was grateful to be able to work with a mission geoup that had a BUNCH of Stihl 250/251, and after about the first week I was daily requesting to check a 250 out for myself.

I really enjoyed the work, and would like to do this sort of disaster relief agian, so I was looking into getting my own mid/small saw for cutting limbs/canopy and some of the mid sized branches, you know things less than a foot in size. One of the guys in charge of the organization introduced me to Dolmar's and I have spent some time reading up on them.

Here are the dealer realities. When there Was a Husky dealer in town they were ignoranus's and arseholes to boot, amd thus went out of business. I have a Great Stihl dealer. The nearest Dolmar dealer is an hour away.


I read some post about different sprockets on different Dolmar's being difficult to find bars/chains for, and...... it would be nice to be able to limit myself to one size of file/chain. (I realize that if I put a 20 inch bar on the smaller saws that I would in no way cut things over 12-14 inches without putting excessive strain on the powerhead, but if I was responsible, would putting a 20 inch bar be too much?


Sooo, any suggestions?


Oh yah, a local shop has a used Stihl 250 on sale for $250


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## windthrown (Jan 14, 2016)

I would stick with Stihl, especially if you have a good dealer and already have another Stihl saw. Dolmar dealers are all but non-existent here.

As for using the same chain on a 250 as a 661, the simple answer is no. The 250 runs .325 or 3/8 Picco-low profile. The 661 runs 3/8 standard (or .404).

As for the 250, I had a fleet of them once. They are rather high vibration saws. I would steer you toward a 251 for that reason. You might also consider the 026/260 or 261 which will run 3/8 standard chain like your 661 likely does. I sold off all my 025/250 saws and replaced them with 026/260 saws and never looked back. I still run and love my little 211 saw though. They are great saws and way better than the old MS210 that they replaced.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 14, 2016)

windthrown said:


> I would stick with Stihl, especially if you have a good dealer and already have another Stihl saw. Dolmar dealers are all but non-existent here.
> 
> As for using the same chain on a 250 as a 661, the simple answer is no. The 250 runs .325 or 3/8 Picco-low profile. The 661 runs 3/8 standard (or .404).
> 
> As for the 250, I had a fleet of them once. They are rather high vibration saws. I would steer you toward a 251 for that reason. You might also consider the 026/260 or 261 which will run 3/8 standard chain like your 661 likely does. I sold off all my 025/250 saws and replaced them with 026/260 saws and never looked back. I still run and love my little 211 saw though. They are great saws and way better than the old MS210 that they replaced.



Thanks, on Stihl's comparison PDF, I had completely overlooked the 261. Regarding the chain size, you are correct about the 3/8. It would be just one less thing to have to keep separate etc if I could use the same chain's on each saw (and slightly less expensive)

AND (even better IMOP) I could leave the 661 rigged up with the long bar, and just use the 261 for everything else.

The MS 211 lists as being 9.4 lbs, with the 261 being 10.8. Since my goal is power to weight as well as being able to hold the saw up all day long, I think the 261 a no-brainer.

Great advice, thanks.


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## windthrown (Jan 14, 2016)

Well, you will have a smaller bar on the 261, likely an 16" or 18" that can also be run on the 661 (I do not recommend it, but others here will). The best thing about one chain type is they use the same files for sharpening, and they have the same profile. Also the 261 is a huge step above the smaller non-pro saws.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 14, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Well, you will have a smaller bar on the 261, likely an 16" or 18" that can also be run on the 661 (I do not recommend it, but others here will). The best thing about one chain type is they use the same files for sharpening, and they have the same profile. Also the 261 is a huge step above the smaller non-pro saws.



I have to confess to being one of those operators who is clueless about the mechanics. But why would cutting a 10 inch pine tree with a 20 inch bar be terribly more difficult for the chainsaw than cutting the same tree with a 16 inch bar?


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## windthrown (Jan 14, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I have to confess to being one of those operators who is clueless about the mechanics. But why would cutting a 10 inch pine tree with a 20 inch bar be terribly more difficult for the chainsaw than cutting the same tree with a 16 inch bar?



I agree with that philosophy myself, being an engineer and from my experience. That longer bar friction alone does not make that great a difference. The real difference is when you bury the bars in wood. Most on this site are short bar fanatics though, and as such, are dedicated to running smaller B&C. We here on the west coast like our long bars. You can run a 20 inch on a 261, and they were engineered to run and oil them. Just be aware that if you bury it full length, it will likely bog, especially in hardwoods. You can also run skip chain on longer bars to compensate to reduce resistance though (which is also a west coast thing). 

I run Picco/low profile on my 026 saw now with the new PS non-safety full chisel chain, and it flies through wood. Narrower kerf, less wood to cut, faster cutting. Hard to get those bars in the states though. It is 3/8, but different B&C and rims to standard 3/8 chain.


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## schneid (Jan 14, 2016)

I agree it's nice to run the same B&C between saws. I believe the weight on the 261 is more than 10.8 as stated above. Another option if you"re looking at picco is the MS241- a pro saw running the same setup (B&C) as the 250/251 and less weight 9.9 lbs.


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## atv1965 (Jan 14, 2016)

I also do disaster relief work and having a small powerful saw is indispensable. I, however always use the smallest saw possible. I'm over 50 and I'll run my 660 with a 32" bar, but prefer the Dolmar 421.


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## rynosawr (Jan 14, 2016)

I don't care for the 250 or the 251..... The 250 is not really up to a lot of abuse, and the 251 is better but I still don't like it much...

I would go with a nice used 026 pro if I were you.

Or a nice 260 with Mag case. 

Those are some tough saws.


The Dolmars have all been great saws that I have seen and or owned and the 421 has an awesome reputation here.


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## CoreyB (Jan 14, 2016)

I don't have a lot of throttle time on a 421 but man that is a nice little saw.
It will probably be my next saw.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 14, 2016)

rynosawr said:


> I don't care for the 250 or the 251..... The 250 is not really up to a lot of abuse, and the 251 is better but I still don't like it much...
> 
> I would go with a nice used 026 pro if I were you.
> 
> ...




I do not know anything about the Stihl 026 pro. Is there a 026 that is NOT a "pro", is do you have any tips/hints/pointers on how to find a "nice one" on ebay?

How much does this 026 pro weight?

How much should I be looking at spending?


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## CoreyB (Jan 14, 2016)

You will probably spend close to the cost of a new Dolmar 421 on a good used 260


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## rynosawr (Jan 14, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I do not know anything about the Stihl 026 pro. Is there a 026 that is NOT a "pro", is do you have any tips/hints/pointers on how to find a "nice one" on ebay?
> 
> How much does this 026 pro weight?
> 
> How much should I be looking at spending?




The 026 pro has a few extra features different than the 026, but they are virtually identical.

Expect to pay $250-$300 for a good used one.

Don't buy on Ebay, buy on here for best results usually, and lower prices.

Most members here are good folks and wouldn't sell a piece of junk or misrepresent what they have.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I do not know anything about the Stihl 026 pro. Is there a 026 that is NOT a "pro", is do you have any tips/hints/pointers on how to find a "nice one" on ebay?
> 
> How much does this 026 pro weight?
> 
> How much should I be looking at spending?



There are virtually no differences between the 026 and the 260 saws. Same frame, slightly different engine (but fully interchangeable). My 026 has a newer 260 engine in it, actually. There are only 2 differences between the 026/260 and the 026/260 PRO saws: the so-called "Pro" saws have an adjustable oil pump and a decompression valve for easier starting, and the non-pro versions do not. I have never owned a PRO 026 or 260. The oil pump works fine up to 2o inches and the decomp is not needed for starting that small a saw. The oiler in the non-pro saw runs off the crank rather than the clutch, which the pro model does, so it will puddle oil some when they are left sitting at idle. Either pro or not, 026 or 260 are all fine. There are some issues with the late 026 saws and early 260 saws that have a fixed H jet carb. You want a fully adjustable carb in these saws. The early model 026 saws also have an aluminum top handle and more open muffler. The later ones have a poly carb top handle and a more choked up muffler. There are three types of tank vents and two types of air filters as well, depending on the model year. Earlier saws have a metal starter cover and later ones had a plastic starter cover. Those differences are all minor though. Some of them have a clear gas tank, and others are solid. I have seen both on all four types, and it was not consistent on any model. I prefer a clear tank, but opaque is fine.

Used 026/260 saws do not get that much respect around here. I see them anywhere from $200-300 on CL regularly. I never paid more than $225 for a used one myself. I also bought a few straight gassed and tired ones for about $100 each. From Stihl specs, the 026 weighs in at 10.4 lb. for the power head only, no gas, oil or B&C.


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## SawTroll (Jan 15, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Thanks, on Stihl's comparison PDF, I had completely overlooked the 261. Regarding the chain size, you are correct about the 3/8. It would be just one less thing to have to keep separate etc if I could use the same chain's on each saw (and slightly less expensive)
> 
> AND (even better IMOP) I could leave the 661 rigged up with the long bar, and just use the 261 for everything else.
> 
> ...



The MS261 is much heavier than that, but still the "right" saw if it has to be a Stihl.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 15, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> The MS261 is much heavier than that, but still the "right" saw if it has to be a Stihl.



I have said before, that I know nothing about mechanics; but why does "it have to be a Stihl"? Weight and durability were really the two things I was looking for with power being the third (I have the 661 when I need power). Would it really be that difficult for a Stihl shop to work on a Dolmar? 

After reading all the replies thus far, it sounds like the Dolmar weights less than 11 pounds with a B&C and gas and oil fill (Dolmar lists "net weight" while Stihl lists "powerhead weight"), and the Dolmar still has almost the power of the MS251 (which I agree does not sound like a good choice at this point), and not much less than the 261.


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## CoreyB (Jan 15, 2016)

One of the benefits of dolmar is there straight forward design and ease to work on. I know if I was given any mentioned saw I would have no problem keeping and using them. If I am spending my hard earned cash the 421 is where I would put my money. I am not sure of the weights and specs exactly but the 421is not heavy but feels really solid. But for light weight I have a rear handle stihl 192. If it died tomorrow I would probably replace it with the 421.


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## schneid (Jan 15, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> The MS261 is much *heavier than that*, but still the "right" saw if it has to be a Stihl.


Hmm, true for the old 261. Stihl website has the "new and improved" 261 listed as..10.8 lbs and 4.1hp. I just noticed that.


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## stihl saws (Jan 15, 2016)

I recently bought a Dolmar 421 and it is a very well built, impressive little saw for the price. In this case though I would have to go with a 026, 260, or 261 for the convenience of swapping bars if needed.


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## CoreyB (Jan 15, 2016)

Call me lazy or maybe I have a problem but I would rather swap saws then bars


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## C Dixon (Jan 15, 2016)

I recently bought a MS250 and it is a great little saw . And a ell of a lot tougher than you think. And I just rechecked the specs on the MS261. A new one runs a Stihl 26 series Saw Chain which is .325 pitch . And the differance between the new pro and home and ranch saws is the pro models run a rim sprocket system. And have electronic fuel management. Along with alloy crank and tank covers. The larger farm&ranch models have adjustable oilers.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I have said before, that I know nothing about mechanics; but why does "it have to be a Stihl"? Weight and durability were really the two things I was looking for with power being the third (I have the 661 when I need power). Would it really be that difficult for a Stihl shop to work on a Dolmar?



That's just the Troll saying that if you are dedicated to Stihl, the 261 is a good choice. There are other options in that size saw, like the Husky 550xp. As for a dedicated Stihl shop working on Dolmar, they do not have parts for those saws in stock, or the parts lists or shop manuals for them. Also they cannot do warranty work on them. Generally most shops around here only work on the tool brands that they sell.


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## CoreyB (Jan 15, 2016)

windthrown said:


> That's just the Troll saying that if you are dedicated to Stihl, the 261 is a good choice. There are other options in that size saw, like the Husky 550xp. As for a dedicated Stihl shop working on Dolmar, they do not have parts for those saws in stock, or the parts lists or shop manuals for them. Also they cannot do warranty work on them. Generally most shops around here only work on the tool brands that they sell.


That makes me feel very lucky our local Dolmar / Echo dealer works on all saws. Come to think of it the bulk of their repair work is Stihl and Husky. Hmmm sells Dolmar's and Echo's but repairs mainly stihl and husky. Must just be some odd coincidence.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 15, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> That makes me feel very lucky our local Dolmar / Echo dealer works on all saws. Come to think of it the bulk of their repair work is Stihl and Husky. Hmmm sells Dolmar's and Echo's but repairs mainly stihl and husky. Must just be some odd coincidence.



Is there a relationship between Echo and Dolmar, or simply that your shop sells both?


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is there a relationship between Echo and Dolmar, or simply that your shop sells both?



No relationship there. Dolmar is owned by Makita, and there are teal Dolkita saws out there (mostly rented at Home Depot). 

There are some shops out there than will work on anything.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 15, 2016)

windthrown said:


> No relationship there. Dolmar is owned by Makita, and there are teal Dolkita saws out there (mostly rented at Home Depot).
> 
> There are some shops out there than will work on anything.




That is what I figured would be the case


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## KG441c (Jan 15, 2016)

Ported 241 ported the right way will top all thoso beside the 261 and 550 and they will both have their hands full. 241c is lighter than a 346xp


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 15, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Ported 241 ported the right way will top all thoso beside the 261 and 550 and they will both have their hands full. 241c is lighter than a 346xp



Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your viewpoint) the only husky experience I have had, is with the one my dad melted when I was a kid. To say small engines and he did not get along would be an understatement. So I have no point of reference for the 346xp comment. 

Would the 241 be lighter than...... the Dolmar 421 (is it me or did this post just start to feel lysdexic?)


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## KG441c (Jan 15, 2016)

The 241 is a tad over 10lbs. Its lighter than the 421 but the 421 is a pro built saw also like the stihl 241c unlike the 250 or 251. It u want a light angry fast saw that cuts with rpm and torque get a oe346xp or a ne346xp and have it ported


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 15, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The 241 is a tad over 10lbs. Its lighter than the 421 but the 421 is a pro built saw also like the stihl 241c unlike the 250 or 251. It u want a light angry fast saw that cuts with rpm and torque get a oe346xp or a ne346xp and have it ported



What exactly is "porting" and any clue what the $ ofor such a service would be? Why not have the Dolmar "ported"?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Porting is optimizing the compression and port timing of the cylinder for a 30 to 40% increase in cut times. Avg. Cost 300$ and the Dolmar is a fine saw to port also. There r dealers for any brand u choose on this site


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

The 241 is almost as expensive as a 261 though. Only a $40 difference here. You do not need a ported saw, especially with a 661 around. I would avoid getting sucked into that vortex.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> The 241 is almost as expensive as a 261 though. Only a $40 difference here. You do not need a ported saw, especially with a 661 around. I would avoid getting sucked into that vortex.


But the 241 is way more nimble and lighter than a 261. Ive had both saws ported and stock and hands down the 241 is a better limb saw and will suprise u in 14" wood. As far as porting the saw windthrown a 241 ported correctly is like daylight/dark difference but I agree its not necessary


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

I have a 20 inch bar and 5 chains that fit the MS 661, and 2 chains for the 36 inch bar (I use the 36 inch to go hunting Osage Orange, aka the yellow death)


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

SawTroll said:


> The MS261 is much heavier than that, but still the "right" saw if it has to be a Stihl.


Id take the lighter more agile 241 anyday over the 261. Ive had 026, 261, and 241c


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Isn't the 241/ 261 like $600-$700 dollar saws plus $300 for porting. Wow no wonder so many votes for the 421 at $330 even ported it would not be much more than either of the stihls stock.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Isn't the 241/ 261 like $600-$700 dollar saws plus $300 for porting. Wow no wonder so many votes for the 421 at $330 even ported it would not be much more than either of the stihls stock.



I have been thinking that for a while now, and trying to be helpful not rude (and because I have looked for a way to change or add the MS241 and MS261 to the poll) the two Stihl saws in the poll question are the Homeowner level saws not the professional saws that we have ended up talking about.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I have been thinking that for a while now, and trying to be helpful not rude (and because I have looked for a way to change or add the MS241 and MS261 to the poll) the two Stihl saws in the poll question are the Homeowner level saws not the professional saws that we have ended up talking about.


The 241c is also quad port and mtronics like your 661c. U gotta pay for new technology


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Well like I said earlier I would have no problem owning and using any of the saws mentioned. Just if the money had do come from my wallet well it would be hard to pass over the 421. Just to emphasize my perspective I have a 024 with a scored piston and I am on the fence to either rebuild it or just buy the 421.


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

You can get a 261 from Canada now for around $500, shipped. They are on sale up there now and the CDN dollar is in the tank. I can point you toward someone to buy and send you one. The 261 is M-tronic as well. The new 261 has a completely new engine design (they are in production now).

Another thing to consider is that the 241 has a small mount bar, and the 661 bars and loops will not fit them. I flipped all my 026 and 260 saws to 3/8 standard and run the same B&C as my larger Stihls.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Well like I said earlier I would have no problem owning and using any of the saws mentioned. Just if the money had do come from my wallet well it would be hard to pass over the 421. Just to emphasize my perspective I have a 024 with a scored piston and I am on the fence to either rebuild it or just buy the 421.


If $$$ was an issue I would buy the 421 but it is on the heavy side


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The 241c is also quad port and mtronics like your 661c. U gotta pay for new technology


That just reverts back to the ease to maintain and work on the 421 no computer or programs needed just a screw driver.


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> If $$$ was an issue I would buy the 421 but it is on the heavy side


IF weight is the only issue we would be talking echo 271 and stihl ms 150


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> That just reverts back to the ease to maintain and work on the 421 no computer or programs needed just a screw driver.


Ill go with u on that one. Ive owned carb and electronic saws and work on them daily and port them and myself prefer the screwdriver


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

I forgot, the newer 261 has dropped in weight as well.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> IF weight is the only issue we would be talking echo 271 and stihl ms 150


But performance wise the 241 will blow the doors off both thoso. Have u cut with a 241c?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> I forgot, the newer 261 has dropped in weight as well.


How much?


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Sorry now I sound like a fan boy. Not my intention at all I will step out of the rest of this discussion.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Sorry now I sound like a fan boy. Not my intention at all I will step out of the rest of this discussion.


I like hearing others opinions compared to my experiences. 421,241c, 261c are all fine rides but a 346xp would be my pick


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Y


KG441c said:


> But performance wise the 241 will blow the doors off both thoso. Have u cut with a 241c?


You are correct a 241 would eat them both up. I have not got to use the 241 much but I have an 024 ( more vibs) and it is a great saw. The 241 261 are good saws but they come at an extra cost.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Y
> 
> You are correct a 241 would eat them both up. I have not got to use the 241 much but I have an 024 ( more vibs) and it is a great saw. The 241 261 are good saws but they come at an extra cost.


Yes at 300$ a 421 is a no brainer. As a matter of fact most dolmars in all classes are better price points and also are bumped compression and good runners from the factory. But a 421 also needs work from the factory being in first order to strip the cat from the muffler and pull limiters on carb for a retune


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> How much?



Back to 10.8 lb. It also has quad porting.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Back to 10.8 lb. It also has quad porting.


Oh ya! That quad will be nice! The quads just seem to carry more torque to me


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

Yah, I love my 361 saws. Both the 362 and the 261 were redesigned with swept back leaning jugs and a lower profile, and they are lighter with a tad more power. The 261 now sports 3.0 KW/4.1 HP, and the 362 will be 3.5/4.8 HP and slim down to 12.3 lb. They are both in production in Virginia and Germany, and being released in Canada and Germany now.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Yah, I love my 361 saws. Both the 362 and the 261 were redesigned with swept back leaning jugs and a lower profile, and they are lighter with a tad more power. The 261 now sports 3.0 KW/4.1 HP, and the 362 will be 3.5/4.8 HP and slim down to 12.3 lb. They are both in production in Virginia and Germany, and being released in Canada and Germany now.


What determines who stocks Virginia Beach or Germany saws?


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> What determines who stocks Virginia Beach or Germany saws?



It looks like the early German saws went to Germany and Canada, but now they are getting Virginia saws in Canada. Likely the Arctic saws will be German, and the rest Virgina in North America.


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## SawTroll (Jan 16, 2016)

schneid said:


> Hmm, true for the old 261. Stihl website has the "new and improved" 261 listed as..10.8 lbs and 4.1hp. I just noticed that.



We will see what it turn out to be....


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## SawTroll (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> What determines who stocks Virginia Beach or Germany saws?



Stihl policy, and I'm sure there are some politics and some marketing strategy behind it.

In the current "strato age", it it no longer looks like it makes any difference - the US saws no longer are "detuned" for EPA reasons.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Oh ya! That quad will be nice! The quads just seem to carry more torque to me



You are still taking about the Dolmar 421?





KG441c said:


> Yes at 300$ a 421 is a no brainer. As a matter of fact most dolmars in all classes are better price points and also are bumped compression and good runners from the factory. But a 421 also needs work from the factory being in first order to strip the cat from the muffler and pull limiters on carb for a retune



And what exactly are you talking about here ^ ^ (above).

Soooo, is there etiquette (look at me talking about etiquette to guys who probably go "Hey man you gona finish that beer or just leave it for the bears? Cause I'd finish it off for you").

Is there a way to approach a small engine shop, in such a way that it is MORE likely they let me work/learn mechanics from them?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> IF weight is the only issue we would be talking echo 271 and stihl ms 150





CoreyB said:


> Sorry now I sound like a fan boy. Not my intention at all I will step out of the rest of this discussion.



Neither of these bothered me, as I pointed out before, the original (and current) Thread Headline is about the MS250 and MS251 which have not been mentioned in QUITE a while.

What surprised me, was that no one pointed out that I am out there lugging around a MS661. While I got to the point (with the 661) that I could use it all day long; the qualification was that I could use it all day long, just as long as everything I was cutting was below the height of my belly button, not only is holding the 661 above shoulder height a little on the unsafe side (IMOP), it is a really tough work out..... so use the 661 to get most thing within its reach but use a smaller Saw to do the limbing and bucking


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Sounds to me u already know what u want and made ur mind up ? Why ask everyone else?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Sounds to me u already know what u want and made ur mind up ? Why ask everyone else?



Because the question posed was not "Heavy powerful saw Vs. Light and nimble saw" it was "Which light and nimble saw?"

Now, at the moment. I am trying to figure out what (I think it was Cory) meant about pulling things out of mufflers and tweaking carbs for a new out of the factory saw.


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Sounds to me u already know what u want and made ur mind up ? Why ask everyone else?


Yes I have. I really want a 421 I just can't afford it or justify buying it while having the 192 and 6100. 
Oh you meant the op.


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

The 421 has a restrictions exhaust to pass epa. By removing the restrictions the saw runs a little better and cooler. But will need re tuned.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

A lot of folks have talked about the Stihl 241 and 261, but it sounds like there is a bit of skepticism about how much they will actually weight, and also the fact that they cost 2x what the Dolmar we have been talking about costs.

Now the guy from the PNW/Canadia said something about the 261 on sale and having a potentially beneficial (to me) exchange rate between Canada and the US, so that was an idea I have been turning over.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Because the question posed was not "Heavy powerful saw Vs. Light and nimble saw" it was "Which light and nimble saw?"
> 
> Now, at the moment. I am trying to figure out what (I think it was Cory) meant about pulling things out of mufflers and tweaking carbs for a new out of the factory saw.


I think the 421 comes with a cat muffler or not. Do u like mtronics on your 661? Can u tune a carb?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> You can get a 261 from Canada now for around $500, shipped. They are on sale up there now and the CDN dollar is in the tank. I can point you toward someone to buy and send you one. The 261 is M-tronic as well. The new 261 has a completely new engine design (they are in production now).
> 
> Another thing to consider is that the 241 has a small mount bar, and the 661 bars and loops will not fit them. I flipped all my 026 and 260 saws to 3/8 standard and run the same B&C as my larger Stihls.



Was the post


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> I think the 421 comes with a cat muffler or not. Do u like mtronics on your 661? Can u tune a carb?



Nope, I know nothing about tuning anything besides chain tension. I woukd actually love to learn, our mechanics teacher in high school was a ........ less than spectacular teacher (which I regretted) so I avoided the class.


Oh yah M-tronics, I don't have to tune anything so..... ignorance is Bliss? (Until it blows up on me, hence the desire to learn how to fix/tune them on my own)


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Tuning a carb is pretty easy and there are some good videos on you tube that give a step by step instructions. 
If I where to buy a stihl it would come from Canada. There is a guy selling some of the artic versions on the trading post.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Tuning a carb is pretty easy and there are some good videos on you tube that give a step by step instructions.
> If I where to buy a stihl it would come from Canada. There is a guy selling some of the artic versions on the trading post.



Is there an advantage to the Arctic version? Or is that just what he has for sale?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

For a light agile saw that u wont have to tune get the Stihl mtronics 241c. I u wanna learn to mod a muffler and tune a saw get the dolmar 421 but it isnt as light as the stihl 241c. Next in line for pro quality saws would be the stihl 261c or the 550xp which neither would u have to tune but weigh alil more than the 1st 2


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is there an advantage to the Arctic version? Or is that just what he has for sale?


Heated handle


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Heated handle



Lol, you are in Louisiana right Keith? I am in Mississippi, we are lucky to get a solid week where temperatures stay below 32, and thus kill off the bugs.


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## Barcroftb (Jan 16, 2016)

Arctic simply has heated handles. Given that they are bench made 1 at a time in Germany, I would normally be beating the dolmar drum (love my 7910). 

However, it sounds like because you already have the 661 and don't currently wrench on saws it would be best for you to take Windthrown up on the Canadian 261. Especially at the crazy discount because of currency difference.

I'd say go check one out at your dealer and see how the weight is for you.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Lol, you are in Louisiana right Keith? I am in Mississippi, we are lucky to get a solid week where temperatures stay below 32, and thus kill off the bugs.


Lol!! Yes im alil west of ya brother. Dont know if we will need firewood this year?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Lol!! Yes im alil west of ya brother. Dont know if we will need firewood this year?



Shoot there is enough of it blown over by the tornadoes (that helped start this whole conversation going), but enough on the ground to heat most wood burners in the State for the next 3-5 years.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

What size wood will u cut with this new saw?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

Here is a picture?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> What size wood will u cut with this new saw?



I doubt, or rather do not intend to cut much stuff larger than 12 inches

If anything larger than 12 inches.

My thoughts were to use the smaller Saw to do the limbing and the bigger saw to do the felling and .... bucking? (Bucking being cutting up the trunk, right?)


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Here is my 241c to kinda get an idea how it cuts


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I doubt, or rather do not intend to cut much stuff larger than 12 inches
> 
> If anything larger than 12 inches.
> 
> My thoughts were to use the smaller Saw to do the limbing and the bigger saw to do the felling and .... bucking? (Bucking being cutting up the trunk, right?)


The 241c is the lightest of the bunch. An 18" picco stihl bar with ps chain and a 7 tooth rim sprocket kit makes an awesome limbing saw and will easily cut 12"


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The 241c is the lightest of the bunch. An 18" picco stihl bar with ps chain and a 7 tooth rim sprocket kit makes an awesome limbing saw and will easily cut 12"



That WAS a quite demonstrative video. Now when talking about weights, doesn't Stihl present their weights a Just the weight of the powerhead, where Dolmar is giving Net Weight, i.e. Powerhead + B&C + oil and fuel?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The 241c is the lightest of the bunch. An 18" picco stihl bar with ps chain and a 7 tooth rim sprocket kit makes an awesome limbing saw and will easily cut 12"



Oh yah almost forgot, is your 241 modded/ported/Frankensteined?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

The 421 is heavier than the 241. The 241 with the 18" or 16" bar flicks around like a feather and is balanced


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Oh yah almost forgot, is your 241 modded/ported/Frankensteined?


Yes my 241 is ported but in stock form they will suprise u with the torque for a 42cc saw


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

If u r gonna cut over 14 to 16" wood get the 261c


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> If u r gonna cut over 14 to 16" wood get the 261c



I was sort of thinking of simply using the 661 for that stuff, but am always open to better techniques or more intelligent methods


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I was sort of thinking of simply using the 661 for that stuff, but am always open to better techniques or more intelligent methods


Id have to have a smaller saw. I have them from 42cc to 90cc and find myself picking up the 241 more


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Id have to have a smaller saw. I have them from 42cc to 90cc and find myself picking up the 241 more



Ok so it sounds like over all the Dolmar is going to be the lightest weight with all most identical power output to the 241, the 261 comes from the factory able (rated) to handle a 20 inch bar.

Would the Dolmar be able to accept Stihl Bars and Chains, or is there a Dolmar sprocket that would allow the Dolmar tO use Stihl B&C's?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

The Dolmar 421 is 10.8lbs and the Stihl 241c is 9.9lbs


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The Dolmar 421 is 10.8lbs and the Stihl 241c is 9.9lbs



But isn't the Stihl weight Just the dry powerhead weight, and the Dolmar "Net weight" so B&C and Oil&Fuel?


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 16, 2016)

Dollar for dollar i'll take the 421.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> But isn't the Stihl weight Just the dry powerhead weight, and the Dolmar "Net weight" so B&C and Oil&Fuel?


No both r pho weights


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Soooo, is there etiquette (look at me talking about etiquette to guys who probably go "Hey man you gona finish that beer or just leave it for the bears? Cause I'd finish it off for you").
> 
> Is there a way to approach a small engine shop, in such a way that it is MORE likely they let me work/learn mechanics from them?



They have bears in Mississippi? Here the saying goes: *Saw repair, $50 an hour. If you help, $100 an hour.* Generally they go into a pile of saws to work on and some tech comes along to work on it at some point. Unless its a one-man shop. If you know the guys in the back, or bring beer (or a bear) along, that may help. Some shops here will not let you in back, no matter what, for insurance (or policy) reasons. Usually a quick re-tune of the carb is done here under warranty on the front counter, but that will not teach you much. With one Mtronic saw already, you may as well get another Mtronic saw and not bother with carb tuning. No reason to.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> Dollar for dollar i'll take the 421.



Did you see:



windthrown said:


> You can get a 261 from Canada now for around $500, shipped. They are on sale up there now and the CDN dollar is in the tank. I can point you toward someone to buy and send you one. The 261 is M-tronic as well. The new 261 has a completely new engine design (they are in production now).
> 
> Another thing to consider is that the 241 has a small mount bar, and the 661 bars and loops will not fit them. I flipped all my 026 and 260 saws to 3/8 standard and run the same B&C as my larger Stihls.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

If the 661 weight doesnt bother u get a husky 562xp with a 20" bar and id bet u wont pick the 661 up unless u cut bigwood


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> They have bears in Mississippi? Here the saying goes: *Saw repair, $50 an hour. If you help, $100 an hour.* Generally they go into a pile of saws to work on and some tech comes along to work on it at some point. Unless its a one-man shop. If you know the guys in the back, or bring beer (or a bear) along, that may help. Some shops here will not let you in back, no matter what, for insurance (or policy) reasons. Usually a quick re-tune of the carb is done here under warranty on the front counter, but that will not teach you much. With one Mtronic saw already, you may as well get another Mtronic saw and not bother with carb tuning. No reason to.



The Teddy Bear story originated in Mississippi, and we do still have 3-4 wild bears


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> If the 661 weight doesnt bother u get a husky 562xp with a 20" bar and id bet u wont pick the 661 up unless u cut bigwood



No husky dealer.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

The dolmar 421 is one of the heavier 42cc saws on the market and also if u leave the cat system in the muffler it runs quite hot


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The dolmar 421 is one of the heavier 42cc saws on the market and also if u leave the cat system in the muffler it runs quite hot



And there is really only about a 1 pound difference in the 241 amd 261?


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is there an advantage to the Arctic version? Or is that just what he has for sale?



No advantage in Mississippi. They have heated handles and carbs, and require a magneto to drive them. They are about $100 more for that setup. Cannot see using one in the sweltering heat in the south.



Michaelmj11 said:


> Ok so it sounds like over all the Dolmar is going to be the lightest weight with all most identical power output to the 241, the 261 comes from the factory able (rated) to handle a 20 inch bar.
> 
> Would the Dolmar be able to accept Stihl Bars and Chains, or is there a Dolmar sprocket that would allow the Dolmar tO use Stihl B&C's?



The Dolmar 421 is heavier than the 241 and weighs the same as the new 261 (at least on paper). The Dolly 421 rates 2.9 HP, and the Stihl 241 rates 3.1 HP. The Dolmars do not swap with Stihl bars, without some kind of adapter. I also presume that the 421 comes with a low profile B&C, like the 241 does, and not 3/8 standard like your 661. Same gauge, but different chain and bars.


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> The Teddy Bear story originated in Mississippi, and we do still have 3-4 wild bears



Do they drink beer?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> And there is really only about a 1 pound difference in the 241 amd 261?


Plus the 421 holds more fuel and oil and will be that much heavier


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

The paper stats:

Dolmar 421: 10.8 lb., 2.9 HP (low profile B&C ?)

Stihl 241: 9.9 lb., 3.1 HP (small mount bar, low profile or .325 B&C)

Stihl 261 type I: 11.5 lb., 3.9 HP ((large mount bar, low profile, .325, or standard B&C)
Stihl 261 type II: 10.8 lb., 4.1 HP (large mount bar, low profile, .325, or standard B&C)

Stihl standard B&C is what you have on your 661.

The Canada sale on the 261 may only cover the type I model. Some dealers are getting in new batches of 261 saws now and we will find out. Power to weight ratio is way better on the 261 saws. They also run any type of Stihl large mount B&C (I have run all three on my 026 saws).


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> The paper stats:
> 
> Dolmar 421: 10.8 lb., 2.9 HP (low profile B&C ?)
> 
> ...



Sooo, being an ignorant shmuck regarding mechanics, how do I tell the difference in the Type I and Type II 261's?


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

Nothing ignorant about it. Few of us know that the type II saw even exists. You will not see a type II 261 saws here for a while yet. They are only being released in Canada and Germany for the time being. The cant of the cylinder and the side covers are the dead giveaway though. 

Type I: 



Type II:


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

So when Dolmar says Net Weight, they mean just the Powerhead? 

http://www.dolmarpowerproducts.com/productcatalog/chain_saws_gasoline/ps-421/index.html


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

They all post PHO weight empty. That is because B&C weight will vary between bar length and type. Fluid weight will also vary on how full the tanks are (near full, or overflowing?). There have been great debates on this site about saw weight, and what the manufacturers post and actual weights of saws that people buy and weight themselves.


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## mountainlake (Jan 16, 2016)

I'd like to see some honest ready to cut weights, full of fuel and oil(not half full) as that's what we have to carry around. Published weights have been known to be off by quite a bit. Steve


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 16, 2016)

I've never weighed any of my saws on a scale. My 421 is considerably lighter than my 550xp ready to cut whatever their real weights might be.


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

mountainlake said:


> I'd like to see some honest ready to cut weights, full of fuel and oil(not half full) as that's what we have to carry around. Published weights have been known to be off by quite a bit. Steve



That will never happen. They would have to list 10 different weights just for the 261, with all the B&C combinations available for it.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

windthrown said:


> They all post PHO weight empty. That is because B&C weight will vary between bar length and type. Fluid weight will also vary on how full the tanks are (near full, or overflowing?). There have been great debates on this site about saw weight, and what the manufacturers post and actual weights of saws that people buy and weight themselves.




Ohhhh, ok, thank you for the pointer. I did not realize that can was full-o-worms.


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Ya some people get crazy over a few ounces. Being able to handle the saws and cut with them will be a better deciding factor then a few oz difference.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Ya some people get crazy over a few ounces. Being able to handle the saws and cut with them will be a better deciding factor then a few oz difference.



Well I can cut with them, and got the seal of approval from a 40 year veteran Logger of "hey, that's purrty good" with regards to my chain sharpening. So as long as they run I'm in the green....


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## 7sleeper (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Ya some people get crazy over a few ounces. Being able to handle the saws and cut with them will be a better deciding factor then a few oz difference.


I see it similar. Especially when taking into context that all this talk is about a guy who bought and is running a 661 on regular basis. ANY saw mentioned will feel MUCH lighter!

And about the 421 / 241 pissing match. One of the much respected modders(mastermind / Randy) here on this site did a review of the 40cc class with the 241 and 420 (predecessor of the 421 with ONLY 2.7hp!) included. And UNMODIFIED he liked the 420 more than the 241! And this fellow mods ton's of saws every month and has quite an experience. 

What would I choose? 
Money in my pocket and I have a 420 at home! Prestige for a hobby is for me simply not worth it!

Personally I beieve that @Michaelmj11 bought the wrong saw in the beginning anyhow. The 661 is simply a unwise choice for the wood in the pic, if we assume it is exemplary. A simple 60-70cc saw (f.e. Stihl 362/441/461) would have been more than enough and this whole discussion would have never happenend.

7


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## birddogtg (Jan 16, 2016)

If a 421 dolmar is to heavy you should not be running any saw.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> I see it similar. Especially when taking into context that all this talk is about a guy who bought and is running a 661 on regular basis. ANY saw mentioned will feel MUCH lighter!
> 
> And about the 421 / 241 pissing match. One of the much respected modders(mastermind / Randy) here on this site did a review of the 40cc class with the 241 and 420 (predecessor of the 421 with ONLY 2.7hp!) included. And UNMODIFIED he liked the 420 more than the 241! And this fellow mods ton's of saws every month and has quite an experience.
> 
> ...


Do u think a ported 346 is faster than a ported 241c?


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## 7sleeper (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Do u think a ported 346 is faster than a ported 241c?


Faster when? With full 16 inch bar in oak or running in 10 inch fir tree?
For me porting is interesting, but not worth the investment in my work field as a homeowner/firewooder. I doubt I would be able to cut 1/4 chord of wood more per day when adding all the seconds saved in a single cut. For a full blown pro who does nothing day in day out, hell yes get the super duper quad finger port super saw. It is a tool that you work with and as such everyone wants and should use the best. The tools I earn my living with cost around 100k. Thankfully I don't have to pay for them, I just get to play with them! 

7


----------



## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> I see it similar. Especially when taking into context that all this talk is about a guy who bought and is running a 661 on regular basis. ANY saw mentioned will feel MUCH lighter!
> 
> And about the 421 / 241 pissing match. One of the much respected modders(mastermind / Randy) here on this site did a review of the 40cc class with the 241 and 420 (predecessor of the 421 with ONLY 2.7hp!) included. And UNMODIFIED he liked the 420 more than the 241! And this fellow mods ton's of saws every month and has quite an experience.
> 
> ...



I didn't buy the 661 for doing clean up.... hence why I need to buy a second saw. I bought the 661 to go hunting big Osage Orange. (Toughest wood on the Continent)

I just had an urge to go help out thousands of people who had their homes blown away by a tornado 2 days before Christmas, and took what I had.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Faster when? With full 16 inch bar in oak or running in 10 inch fir tree?
> For me porting is interesting, but not worth the investment in my work field as a homeowner/firewooder. I doubt I would be able to cut 1/4 chord of wood more per day when adding all the seconds saved in a single cut. For a full blown pro who does nothing day in day out, hell yes get the super duper quad finger port super saw. It is a tool that you work with and as such everyone wants and should use the best. The tools I earn my living with cost around 100k. Thankfully I don't have to pay for them, I just get to play with them!
> 
> 7


Ok I see where u r comin from. I was just trying to pass along to the OP my personal experiences. If money is a factor the 421 no doubt but he has a 661 and obviously put out the $$$ on it. As far as the porting a 346xp and a 241c will be faster than a 420/421 no doubt. That video I posted earlier of the 241c was 1.4 sec faster in a 3 cut avg than a well known porter here 346xp. A 241 can be made to cut. Also a factor to consider more than the weight is balance. The 241 u dont feel the weight but a perfect balance but the 421 doesnt balance that well to me. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> If a 421 dolmar is to heavy you should not be running any saw.



Please see my above post (or even the original for that matter)


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michael I do believe if u like the 661 u will like a 241c or a 261c if money isnt a factor. Just depends on how much power u want and bar u wanna run


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Michael I do believe if u like the 661 u will like a 241c or a 261c if money isnt a factor. Just depends on how much power u want and bar u wanna run




Yah now if I can just locate one oh them nice "Type II MS261" Windthrown was mentioning.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Ok I see where u r comin from. I was just trying to pass along to the OP my personal experiences. If money is a factor the 421 no doubt but he has a 661 and obviously put out the $$$ on it. As far as the porting a 346xp and a 241c will be faster than a 420/421 no doubt. That video I posted earlier of the 241c was 1.4 sec faster in a 3 cut avg than a well known porter here 346xp. A 241 can be made to cut. Also a factor to consider more than the weight is balance. The 241 u dont feel the weight but a perfect balance but the 421 doesnt balance that well to me. Just my 2 cents


No one is denying that the 241 ported or unported will have a slight advantage over the unported / ported 421. But anyone proclaiming that a 8cc more saw is going to be slower in the right size wood is simply kidding himself. And proclaiming that the 241 out of the box is cannot cut, well I don't know what to say about that idea... 
As far as balance, balance is strictly a personal feeling. And anyone can include or exclude his daily situation. Don't misunderstand me the 241 is surely a great saw and modded I am sure it is even better, but many people obviously have other impressions and choose something else that balances better with them. And that also includes pro's who make a living with there saws (f.e. like Kenjax Tree). 

@Michaelmj11 

I truely doubt that the new model is being sold that cheap. There is a similar situation over here that dealers are liquidating old stock 261 (type I as you say it) at reduced prices. But the "new" modell still has the regular price tag. 

7


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## birddogtg (Jan 16, 2016)

If money is not a concern get the stihl,but if you want to save $200 or more buy the dolmar and since you are looking at a 261 you might want to look at a dolmar 5105.By the way I was not saying that you weren't strong enough to run a 11lb saw but when they are that light or lighter it just don't make that much different.I have a 421,a ported 550,a ported 562 and for all day cutting I'll take the 562 anytime over those 2 because of the extra power but give me a 7900!!!! anytime.


----------



## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> If money is not a concern get the stihl,but if you want to save $200 or more buy the dolmar and since you are looking at a 261 you might want to look at a dolmar 5105.By the way I was not saying that you weren't strong enough to run a 11lb saw but when they are that light or lighter it just don't make that much different.I have a 421,a ported 550,a ported 562 and for all day cutting I'll take the 562 anytime over those 2 because of the extra power but give me a 7900!!!! anytime.



So, how much more power do you get from "porting"? Whether it be a Stihl or a Dolmar?


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## C Dixon (Jan 16, 2016)

Michael I'm sorry but a can of worms can explode on this site at any moment. To my learned members Michael did not ask any questions about muffler mods or porting a used saw. The topic he asked was a honest opinion on 3 new saw models among 2 different Manufacturing company's. It is that simple. Not a Monkey it fight in a zoo like this discussion is turning out to be. And a couple of the comments made are borderline insulting. I am surprised a moderator hasn't stepped in. I gave my opinion without political vigor. Guys keep on topic and have a good evening.


----------



## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> No one is denying that the 241 ported or unported will have a slight advantage over the unported / ported 421. But anyone proclaiming that a 8cc more saw is going to be slower in the right size wood is simply kidding himself. And proclaiming that the 241 out of the box is cannot cut, well I don't know what to say about that idea...
> As far as balance, balance is strictly a personal feeling. And anyone can include or exclude his daily situation. Don't misunderstand me the 241 is surely a great saw and modded I am sure it is even better, but many people obviously have other impressions and choose something else that balances better with them. And that also includes pro's who make a living with there saws (f.e. like Kenjax Tree).
> 
> @Michaelmj11
> ...





7sleeper said:


> No one is denying that the 241 ported or unported will have a slight advantage over the unported / ported 421. But anyone proclaiming that a 8cc more saw is going to be slower in the right size wood is simply kidding himself. And proclaiming that the 241 out of the box is cannot cut, well I don't know what to say about that idea...
> As far as balance, balance is strictly a personal feeling. And anyone can include or exclude his daily situation. Don't misunderstand me the 241 is surely a great saw and modded I am sure it is even better, but many people obviously have other impressions and choose something else that balances better with them. And that also includes pro's who make a living with there saws (f.e. like Kenjax Tree).
> 
> @Michaelmj11
> ...


I can see u r confused. U must be referring to factory saws? 8cc is nothing to make up in porting which I do port and know all too well in the right size wood I have seen saws 20cc less be faster


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

C Dixon said:


> Michael I'm sorry but a can of worms can explode on this site at any moment. To my learned members Michael did not ask any questions about muffler mods or porting a used saw. The topic he asked was a honest opinion on 3 new saw models among 2 different Manufacturing company's. It is that simple. Not a Monkey it fight in a zoo like this discussion is turning out to be. And a couple of the comments made are borderline insulting. I am surprised a moderator hasn't stepped in. I gave my opinion without political vigor. Guys keep on topic and have a good evening.


Well the OP has inquired about porting, tuning, etc. If he wasnt interested would he be asking though?


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

C Dixon said:


> Michael I'm sorry but a can of worms can explode on this site at any moment. To my learned members Michael did not ask any questions about muffler mods or porting a used saw. The topic he asked was a honest opinion on 3 new saw models among 2 different Manufacturing company's. It is that simple. Not a Monkey it fight in a zoo like this discussion is turning out to be. And a couple of the comments made are borderline insulting. I am surprised a moderator hasn't stepped in. I gave my opinion without political vigor. Guys keep on topic and have a good evening.


Look at the post before yours? He is asking about porting


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Storm clean up I still think the dolmar is the best choice. Tough as nails and less likely to "walk away" . Stihls have a resale value some think are worth stealing for.


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## C Dixon (Jan 16, 2016)

I was congerating my post and composing it at the time he posted.


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Anyhow Michael the porting if maximum gains are achieved usually gain 30% to 40% in cut speeds. Here is an example on a dyno of a stock vs ported hp gain on a Stihl 461


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## MountainHigh (Jan 16, 2016)

I've been kicking tires on a 241c for some time now but with Cdn dollar in toilet I will wait until Oil comes back up and drags the Cdn dollar with it before buying something. Great deals in Canada *if* you are buying with US dollars. 30% gain!!!

Anyone know of any dealers in BC that sell Dolmar? Would like to grab a 421, but so far I can't find anyone that sells them.

Question: I know how to tell the version II of the 261c, but how about the 241c version II?


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## mountainlake (Jan 16, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> If a 421 dolmar is to heavy you should not be running any saw.





Is there something wrong about publishing the actual cutting weight of a saw, if weight didn't matter we'd all be running 100+ cc saws. Steve


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Anyhow Michael the porting if maximum gains are achieved usually gain 30% to 40% in cut speeds. Here is an example on a dyno of a stock vs ported hp gain on a Stihl 461View attachment 479160



Ok, now this may be even more of a troublesome question (and I am betting the answer is a three letter acronym). BUT, why are the manufacturers not selling "ported" saws, or saws with the specs you can get out of them from porting? If the answer is not three letters, I'm guessing it is $


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## KG441c (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Ok, now this may be even more of a troublesome question (and I am betting the answer is a three letter acronym). BUT, why are the manufacturers not selling "ported" saws, or saws with the specs you can get out of them from porting? If the answer is not three letters, I'm guessing it is $


EPA


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

KG441c said:


> EPA



That is what I thought.


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## birddogtg (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> So, how much more power do you get from "porting"? Whether it be a Stihl or a Dolmar?


20 to 40 per cent


mountainlake said:


> Is there something wrong about publishing the actual cutting weight of a saw, if weight didn't matter we'd all be running 100+ cc saws. Steve


I didn't say there was anything wrong with it but when it's 1 lb or less it just don't matter to me but I have worked physically hard all my life.like I said I rather run a 7900 then the baby saws.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> 20 to 40 per cent
> 
> I didn't say there was anything wrong with it but when it's 1 lb or less it just don't matter to me but I have worked physically hard all my life.like I said I rather run a 7900 then the baby saws.



I'm not a stranger to hard work, shoot it took me around 1.5-2 weeks of using nothing but the 661 from felling to limbing to start picking up both my 661 and the MS250 the ministry had on hand. When you have to cut all the branches up into lengths between 20 inches and 4 foot so that they can all be hauled by hand around someone's house (or the remnants there of) or a cemetery where half the headstones were from 1850, and had been blown over by the wind. Heavy equipment wasn't exactly an option. Using that big saw for all those tiny cuts gets a bit old rather quickly. Especially when you need to start at the top of the pile to release the pressure/stress on the lower branches for safety.

Holding the 661 above chest height for any extended period just .... quickly becomes unpleasant and something you look for a work around.

I would call those work arounds Smaller Saws =)


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

It is not that I am fussing, it is simply that the nature of this discussion has been about how this "problem" or situation is NOT your normal logging or firewood cutting situation, and so there is not just a 1 saw solution.


Lol or if there IS, speak up, I'd be first in line for that critter!


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> It is not that I am fussing, it is simply that the nature of this discussion has been about how this "problem" or situation is NOT your normal logging or firewood cutting situation, and so there is not just a 1 saw solution.
> 
> 
> Lol or if there IS, speak up, I'd be first in line for that critter!


Dolmar 6100.
Cuts great, built great, priced right, and still lighter than the 661. Lol 


Just kidding the 421 or 241 would be one over the best choices for what you are asking for.


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## CoreyB (Jan 16, 2016)

Here is the 420 and 241 in there element


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

Here are the links to the outfit I was with. They were and are absolutely awesome people. A couple of them have were discussing working what sort of part time jobs they needed so that they could be with this ministry wherever, whenever it "deployed"

They were just so utterly selfless, encouraging, and giving. . . Words really fail.

http://eightdaysofhope.com/hope-reigns

http://www.intagme.com/eightdaysofhope/1154519697820877141_277679991/

https://m.facebook.com/EightDaysofHope/?tsid=0.3200140683911741&source=typeahead

Anytime you gents want to show up and show off what truly powered up saws can do, you would be more than welcome. There was a local who had a Woods Ported MS046 I could tell when he was on site just by the sound, and man did the mulch fly.


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## birddogtg (Jan 16, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I'm not a stranger to hard work, shoot it took me around 1.5-2 weeks of using nothing but the 661 from felling to limbing to start picking up both my 661 and the MS250 the ministry had on hand. When you have to cut all the branches up into lengths between 20 inches and 4 foot so that they can all be hauled by hand around someone's house (or the remnants there of) or a cemetery where half the headstones were from 1850, and had been blown over by the wind. Heavy equipment wasn't exactly an option. Using that big saw for all those tiny cuts gets a bit old rather quickly. Especially when you need to start at the top of the pile to release the pressure/stress on the lower branches for safety.
> 
> Holding the 661 above chest height for any extended period just .... quickly becomes unpleasant and something you look for a work around.
> 
> I would call those work arounds Smaller Saws =)


I said a lb or less didn't make any difference to me,never said anything about a 10 lb saw vs a 17 lb saw


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> I said a lb or less didn't make any difference to me,never said anything about a 10 lb saw vs a 17 lb saw



Hahaha, right?!


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 16, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Dolmar 6100.
> Cuts great, built great, priced right, and still lighter than the 661. Lol
> 
> 
> Just kidding the 421 or 241 would be one over the best choices for what you are asking for.




I keep flip flopping between the MS 261 and the Dolmar. What with how dependable/rugged you folks talk about the Dolmar being AND the $$$; I have actually been playing around with the idea of getting the Dolmar then porting it. If I could find the Stihl's for the same $ I would definitely snatch the 261 up, but from the sound of things it might be just as useful to go the Dolmar route. Although the 261 is really tempting.


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## windthrown (Jan 17, 2016)

This has turned into a wild BA style thread with modded saws vs. stock, Dolmar vs Stihl (vs Husky), with all the trimmings. Wait until you ask which type of mod to get (pop vs squish!). 

Amusing how many Dolmar fans there are here. I looked into getting several of their saws once, including the 420 and 5100s, but there are just too few dealers in the PNW. I also looked into becoming a Dolmar dealer when I lived in Southern Oregon, but the PNW distributor is a jerk and I was warned off by several other previous and current Dolmar dealers in the western US not to do it.


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

If I was starting over at the current I myself would wanna try the new quad 261 and port it


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

windthrown said:


> This has turned into a wild BA style thread with modded saws vs. stock, Dolmar vs Stihl (vs Husky), with all the trimmings. Wait until you ask which type of mod to get (pop vs squish!).
> 
> Amusing how many Dolmar fans there are here. I looked into getting several of their saws once, including the 420 and 5100s, but there are just too few dealers in the PNW. I also looked into becoming a Dolmar dealer when I lived in Southern Oregon, but the PNW distributor is a jerk and I was warned off by several other previous and current Dolmar dealers in the western US not to do it.



Pop vs Squish? Yah, ummm you lost me there. Please tell me that these saw masters I keep reading about specialize in one or the other so I could simply go with a Master (whatever the rest of his username is) or Snell


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> If I was starting over at the current I myself would wanna try the new quad 261 and port it



Is quad meaning 4 cylinders vs 2?


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is quad meaning 4 cylinders vs 2?


Transfer ports


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## windthrown (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is quad meaning 4 cylinders vs 2?



Quad means 4 transfer ports here. There were some 2 cylinder saws back in the day, but no longer. They are all single cylinder now.


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## windthrown (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Pop vs Squish? Yah, ummm you lost me there. Please tell me that these saw masters I keep reading about specialize in one or the other so I could simply go with a Master (whatever the rest of his username is) or Snell



Oh, a big can of worms there. They (Randy and Brad) have spilled out onto many other forums in mod wars started here over pop-up mods (Brad) vs. squish cut mods (Randy). They have just recently both been pulled as sponsors from this site after yet another war was brewing, and several folks were banned in the process. But yes, you could go with one of them, or one of many other modders out there. I do not recommend any, or see the need for a modified saw in your case.


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## OldJack (Jan 17, 2016)

I've never dealt with this outfit, too far away. Vancouver Island.
http://portablebandsawmills.ca/catalog/chainsaw/dolmar-0



MountainHigh said:


> I've been kicking tires on a 241c for some time now but with Cdn dollar in toilet I will wait until Oil comes back up and drags the Cdn dollar with it before buying something. Great deals in Canada *if* you are buying with US dollars. 30% gain!!!
> 
> Anyone know of any dealers in BC that sell Dolmar? Would like to grab a 421, but so far I can't find anyone that sells them.
> 
> Question: I know how to tell the version II of the 261c, but how about the 241c version II?


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## wde_1978 (Jan 17, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Here is the 420 and 241 in there element



Nice comparison videos! 
The 241 seems a bit stronger, but I'd still prefer the 421!
A muffler mod should bring her up to speed.

I will cast my vote for the Dolmar PS-421, but I am a little bit biased as I only ever used Dolmar IN MY LIFE.

To the OP, I have been using my Dolmar's PS-6400 & PS-7900 for everything from felling, over bucking up to limbing tiniest branches, even bush clearing - thus I understand the desire for a lighter saw even though I am built quite strong and actually own small 40cc saws. That been said, picking up a small saw wearing a "long" bar counteracts the purpose of the small saw - You will loose handling and maneuverability!
Bars can last for Years and chains cost next to nothing, thus I wouldn't set my criteria at "uses the same chain"!
As some members stated, visit as many dealers in Your vicinity and try the weights of as many "small" saws as You can.
Considering that You intend to buck with Your 661 (I might have gotten this wrong?!) and want a nimble small saw for limbing You shouldn't worry about different chain size as You'll never mount Your big saws chain onto Your small saw anyway.
Having saws with two different chain sizes will require You to carry one additional file size with You and I don't see any issue in that.
Additionally, .325" or 3/8" LowProfile/Picco chains feature smaller teeth making the limbing experience much smoother. Trust me, limbing small branches with 3/8" chisel chain can be a rough experience.

Good luck with Your choice and don't forget to post what You have chosen! 

NOTE: If sharpening in the field is an issue, picking a saw that features 3/8" LowProfile/Picco would enable You to try a "PowerSharp" system. I don't have one yet and therefore don't know how it handles, but I intend to purchase a starter kit for my little 40cc saws.

NOTE2: I own two 40cc saws , and one 64cc & 79cc each. My Sachs-Dolmar 105 & 108 are identical saws with the exception that the 105 is a top handle design. The Dolmar PS-6400 & PS-7900 are also identical with the exception of cc difference.
As I mentioned before, I am well built and used to high physical load from my regular work, thus for many Years my main go to saw is my 64cc Dolmar PS-6400. Why? Because my 40cc saw just seems slow once I have to buck a tree trunk or limb strong branches, and my 79cc saw is pure overkill for most any of my needs. The only issue I have with using my PS-6400 for everything is the physical size of the saw! A big saw wearing a long bar tends to get in the way when limbing, thus a two saw plan is optimal as long as there is a logical size difference between them.

NOTE3: As pictures say a thousand words here are some of my favorite duo, 14" & 20" bars:















Cheers,


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

The only thing I did to my 421 was gut the CAT and opened up the muffler. It will not disappoint you.

21 years of tree work and never used a ported saw to do any if it.[emoji6]


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

wde_1978 said:


> Nice comparison videos!
> The 241 seems a bit stronger, but I'd still prefer the 421!
> A muffler mod should bring her up to speed.
> 
> ...


That was one of Randys first 241c to port and he admitted himself was not where he wanted it and changed the transfer heights and since made an even stronger 241


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

It suprises me how many seem to be against porting on a site that has been mostly about just that? Porting isnt necessary but sure helps. Saying it is unecessary to me is like taking a deer rifle with a scope thats shooting 1ft to the left. Sure u can kill a deer with it but it can no doubt be improved


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## Jimbo209 (Jan 17, 2016)

This is a great thread, i have pondered the same issue. With a similar start, 3y ago bought a 660 but had the 026 already.

A 40cc class would be nice with a 14 to keep chain speed up.

Also does a to handle model have a place in this discussion or at least a rear version aka but not limited to 200T/ms200. Coming from using 192t/200t both12" at work. Only got to do a similar type of work once st home with a echo cs360t @16" eBay saw lose carb screws=now scored needing split and rebuild.

I have a new 3003 16" 3/8 bar, I was going to put my old 026 but I'm probably going to leave it on the .325 .063 RM @18", maybe cut down to 16". Even if it wouldnt be the same chain as the 660/064.
For the vibration comments mentioned on small <1-3" wood

A 40-50cc Makita/Dolmar is 450-600 here vs 1400-1500 for the Stihl. B/C or not I can pay full rrp(won't be) and be in front on spare chains
Ps6100 $979 Has a small mount is on my option list as well. If/when.


Another cheap light option could be a box store $200 saw that you can learn tuning on, like this Ryobi 42cc rips now with the deleted cat and 4 more 7mm holes (drill bit on hand, about right size) on the stock 10mm port 

Cheers
James


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## Jimbo209 (Jan 17, 2016)

Got that mm


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## 7sleeper (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> It suprises me how many seem to be against porting on a site that has been mostly about just that? Porting isnt necessary but sure helps. Saying it is unecessary to me is like taking a deer rifle with a scope thats shooting 1ft to the left. Sure u can kill a deer with it but it can no doubt be improved


There is the old saying:
Fear the man with one gun, no doubt he knows how to use it....

Of course porting helps and I am absolutely in favor for people who work full time or simply enjoy the maximum out of their equiment, but the bigotry often associated with porting, is quite annyoing at times. I see it for chainsaw users to understand how to really sharpen a chain or have their saw carb tuned correctly as much more important.


KG441c said:


> I can see u r confused. U must be referring to factory saws? 8cc is nothing to make up in porting which I do port and know all too well in the right size wood I have seen saws 20cc less be faster


I am sorry but I am not confused. And your words only assure me of my mental status. Let me add that I do not port and have only been reading about it here and other places. But all documentation I have seen here and on other sites have shown quite the opposite.
Of course anyone can quite easily achieve a situation where one saw will cut faster than the other.

Let us begin with the examples, I assume you are refering to:
a 40cc saw and a 60cc saw, both equaly well ported, both with equaly well sharpened chains, the 40cc using a 14 inch 3/8 picco and the 60cc using a 20 inch 3/8 full, cutting what I would call small soft wood (~10 inch)


Of course the smaller saw will cut faster, but even unported they might cut faster and personally I would never use a larger saw on the smaller type wood! Sorry but I would like to see proof of your experience of two equally well ported saws, cutting wood in the size what the larger saw was primarily made for. So for me a 40cc saw is made for wood up to 10-15 inch, a 50cc 15-20, 60cc 20-25, etc. I DON'T want to see a comparison video of a larger saw cutting smaller wood it was never intended for. That is simply a sensless test and does porting no favor whatsoever and proves absolutely nothing.

7


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## schneid (Jan 17, 2016)

Yeh, good thread. OP may be wondering, as I am, does porting affect longevity of the saw? My 241 is not ported and is definitely fine for my needs. I wouldn't want to mess with the reliability of it should porting cause any issues..


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## 7sleeper (Jan 17, 2016)

schneid said:


> Yeh, good thread. OP may be wondering, as I am, does porting affect longevity of the saw? My 241 is not ported and is definitely fine for my needs. I wouldn't want to mess with the reliability of it should porting cause any issues..


 As far as I have understood there are different levels of porting. A regular "woods port" should not affect longlivety, with a "race port" the situation might evolve.

7


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

I just never saw the significance in spending $300-$350 more on an already expensive tool.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> I just never saw the significance in spending $300-$350 more on an already expensive tool.



From my understanding, it makes a $300 tool perform like a $600-800 tool, but retains the weight and form factor of the $300


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> There is the old saying:
> Fear the man with one gun, no doubt he knows how to use it....
> 
> Of course porting helps and I am absolutely in favor for people who work full time or simply enjoy the maximum out of their equiment, but the bigotry often associated with porting, is quite annyoing at times. I see it for chainsaw users to understand how to really sharpen a chain or have their saw carb tuned correctly as much more important.
> ...


There is another old saying, You can lead a horse to water but u cant make him drink.....7 sleeper I see your perspective of saws, uses, applications, porting, to port or not to port, sizes in applications are all one sided and you are thinking u r 100% right about everything and thats the way it is? No sense in me posting videos, articles, or discussing porting to prove to you anything? Seems to me you have wasted alota time on here since 2008 getting yourself very confused and convincing yourself you are 100% right about everything


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

For me, if I was able to have the power of a factory MS261 (or an even bigger saw) packed into the size/weight of a Dolmar 421 or MS241 I'd be a happy man


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> For me, if I was able to have the power of a factory MS261 (or an even bigger saw) packed into the size/weight of a Dolmar 421 or MS251 I'd be a happy man


Now u r seeing why power to weight ratio means alot. Balance plays a big role too in comfort. If someone hands u a 241 that will smoke a 261 and weighs less and is more agile, which would u want? Makes alota sense to buy a heavier saw with less power to use all day long


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

So what I have been toying around with doing, is .... well first comparing (first hand) the Dolmar 421 and the Stihl MS241 and MS261. But quite possibly getting the Dolmar from $ and dependability, and having it ported (if I feel it is needed/justified) amd still (with porting) having spent less than the cost of a MS241


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Now u r seeing why power to weight ratio means alot. Balance plays a big role too in comfort. If someone hands u a 241 that will smoke a 261 and weighs less and is more agile, which would u want? Makes alota sense to buy a heavier saw with less power to use all day long



Except I mistyped and put in MS251 instead of 241.... I went back and corrected, but your quote didn't catch that..


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Dont buy into the myth that porting lessens dependability. Actually u are supplying the cylinder with more fuel, which is what cools the engine and not the oil, and opening the exhaust up and letting it breath and release more heat


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> So what I have been toying around with doing, is .... well first comparing (first hand) the Dolmar 421 and the Stihl MS241 and MS261. But quite possibly getting the Dolmar from $ and dependability, and having it ported (if I feel it is needed/justified) amd still (with porting) having spent less than the cost of a MS241


From a savings standpoint the dolmar is the only real choice. Gut the cat in the muffler, retune ,and cut wood and have fun


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Dont buy into the myth that porting lessens dependability. Actually u are supplying the cylinder with more fuel, which is what cools the engine and not the oil, and opening the exhaust up and letting it breath and release more heat



And since these are air cooled engines (or so my dealer keeps telling me, when he reminds me that idling the saw is not the best thing for it)

Having a more open muffler means a better performer all around (except from the EPA standpoint)

The way I have had chainsaw manufacturers reactions to EPA explained to me, is that instead of changing the majority of the saw to meet guidelines, they limit the amount of pollutants the saw puts out in a set period of time, it is capable of performing better with more open parts..... it just wouldn't meet/pass regulation.


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## schneid (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> From a savings standpoint the dolmar is the only real choice. Gut the cat in the muffler, retune ,and cut wood and have fun


Never run Dolmar/makita. Sound like good saws though. Is 420 the same as 421? Stats show 420 a little less hp than 421..


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> And since these are air cooled engines (or so my dealer keeps telling me, when he reminds me that idling the saw is not the best thing for it)
> 
> Having a more open muffler means a better performer all around (except from the EPA standpoint)
> 
> The way I have had chainsaw manufacturers reactions to EPA explained to me, is that instead of changing the majority of the saw to meet guidelines, they limit the amount of pollutants the saw puts out in a set period of time, it is capable of performing better with more open parts..... it just wouldn't meet/pass regulation.


I can see that. The main goal is to try and limit hydrocarbons as much as possible. Stihls big name for it is Delayed Stratification Scavenging Technology!! Lol!! The bottomline is that all that means is a big baffled muffler creating backpressure in an attempt to stuff some back in and burn it


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

schneid said:


> Never run Dolmar/makita. Sound like good saws though. Is 420 the same as 421? Stats show 420 a little less hp than 421..


They perform the same from all I have heard


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> There is another old saying, You can lead a horse to water but u cant make him drink.....7 sleeper I see your perspective of saws, uses, applications, porting, to port or not to port, sizes in applications are all one sided and you are thinking u r 100% right about everything and thats the way it is? No sense in me posting videos, articles, or discussing porting to prove to you anything? Seems to me you have wasted alota time on here since 2008 getting yourself very confused and convincing yourself you are 100% right about everything



See what I thought 7 was getting at was that a powerful small saw, with (and here is the important part) a thinner/smaller chain would possibly cut faster because it is going through a narrower section of wood..... but I am not sure I followed him/his meaning 100%


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

But then again 7 Sleeper said that both saw would be running a 3/8ths chain, so they Would be the same width, right?


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> See what I thought 7 was getting at was that a powerful small saw, with (and here is the important part) a thinner/smaller chain would possibly cut faster because it is going through a narrower section of wood..... but I am not sure I followed him/his meaning 100%


Thinner kerf is faster. I run Stihl ps on my 241 which is picco but the tooth is close to .325


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

There are no set rules on all these performance add ons. Cutting technique is another factor that will determine chain, angles, tunings, etc that will be right for one and not another


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Thinner kerf is faster. I run Stihl ps on my 241 which is picco but the tooth is close to .325



So PS is a synonymous or rather replaceable with the RS and RM? But those do not denote chain width (i.e. 3/8 vs .325)?

Chains have confused me a bit, hence one reason why I was hoping to just keep it simple with 1 sort of chain just fitting different bar lengths. A hope I have abandoned.


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Picco is smaller than .325 or .375. If using picco on the 241 Ive found PS and PS3 to be the fastest but doesnt stay as sharp as PM (non safety semi chisel), or PM3 ( safety semi chisel)


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

3/8" .325 .404 etc isn't the width of the cutter, its the length of 3 consecutive rivets divided by 2.

The only measurement of width is the drive links.....043, .050, .058, .063 but that has nothing to do with the width of the kerf.

This will help you.
http://www.oregonproducts.com/AppGuideMoreInfo.htm


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Picco is smaller than .325 or .375. If using picco on the 241 Ive found PS and PS3 to be the fastest but doesnt stay as sharp as PM (non safety semi chisel), or PM3 ( safety semi chisel)



So PS is the yellow chain, and PM is the safer Green chain?

Here is what I use


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> 3/8" .325 .404 etc isn't the width of the cutter, its the length of 3 consecutive rivets divided by 2.
> 
> The only measurement of width is the drive links.....043, .050, .058, .063 but that has nothing to do with the width of the kerf.
> 
> ...



Thank you, it helped a little. 

But did not mention Kerf. Isn't Kerf the distance perpendicular to the bar, of the cutting chisels, (right side chisel distance to left left side chisel)?


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> So PS is the yellow chain, and PM is the safer Green chain?View attachment 479340
> 
> Here is what I use


No pm is non safety semi chisel and pm3 is the safety semi chisel. PS is full comp non safety and PS3 is full comp safety


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## Franny K (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> So PS is a synonymous or rather replaceable with the RS and RM? But those do not denote chain width (i.e. 3/8 vs .325)?
> 
> Chains have confused me a bit, hence one reason why I was hoping to just keep it simple with 1 sort of chain just fitting different bar lengths. A hope I have abandoned.


PS the P denotes Picco that is the class of chain there really are two sizes of picco in 3/8 low profile and one size in 1/4 inch pitch. The S kind of denotes chisel chain or super in Stihl lingo. R denotes Rapid which is a larger chasis there are a few variants of that as well. M denotes semi chisel or micro chisel. The 3 is a bumper drive link, C which may still be out in stock some places is comfort, has some anti vibration features most likely included in the current offerings. This being Stihl labeling system. Both Stihl and Oregon have literature explaining their numbering systems.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

Franny K said:


> PS the P denotes Picco that is the class of chain there really are two sizes of picco in 3/8 low profile and one size in 1/4 inch pitch. The S kind of denotes chisel chain or super in Stihl lingo. R denotes Rapid which is a larger chasis there are a few variants of that as well. M denotes semi chisel or micro chisel. The 3 is a bumper drive link, C which may still be out in stock some places is comfort, has some anti vibration features.



Soo, what you are saying is that these are not universal terms, and so I will need to learn the lingo of multiple manufacturers chain denominations?

Is there any part of the PMS RSC stuff that is used by other manufacturers?


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

If you want to save money get the 421, gut the CAT, retune it, get a PS/PS3 chain and cut lots of wood.


#patheticbuddies


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Soo, what you are saying is that these are not universal terms, and so I will need to learn the lingo of multiple manufacturers chain denominations?


Exactly!! Fun huh?


#patheticbuddies


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> Exactly!! Fun huh?
> 
> 
> #patheticbuddies



I think I mentioned something about PMS....


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I think I mentioned something about PMS....


Not sure what to say about PMS, but no other parts of RS are used by anyone but Stihl.


#patheticbuddies


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

Stihl RS=Oregon LGX, LPX has the same cutter but has a small bumper link and is a little smoother.

Stihl RM= Oregon BPX

Stihl PM=Oregon VXL

Stihl PS is the only full chisel 3/8lp(picco) chain made

Not sure on other manufacturer equivalents to these. 


#patheticbuddies


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## Franny K (Jan 17, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> Stihl RS=Oregon LGX, LPX has the same cutter but has a small bumper link and is a little smoother.
> 
> Stihl RM= Oregon BPX
> 
> ...


Stihl has R or rapid chain in 1/4, 0.325, and 3/8 and perhaps .404 would have to look up. I think some of those letters in Oregon are specific to a pitch.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 17, 2016)

Franny K said:


> Stihl has R or rapid chain in 1/4, 0.325, and 3/8 and perhaps .404 would have to look up. I think some of those letters in Oregon are specific to a pitch.


The letters are the cutter style...20, 21, 22, 72, 73, 74, 91 etc. designated gauge and pitch.

20LPX is .325 .050
72LPX is 3/8 .050 
Same cutter different chassis
#patheticbuddies


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> The letters are the cutter style...20, 21, 22, 72, 73, 74, 91 etc. designated gauge and pitch.
> 
> 20LPX is .325 .050
> 72LPX is 3/8 .050
> ...



And by different chassis you mean different powerheads, or different sprockets?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

So if I was to choose the Dolmar 421, what would I need to do it to enable it to use Stihl bar and chains?

And earlier you were talking about quads, was the MS261 the only quad you were talking about, or are both the Dolmar 421 and Stihl 241 quads as well?


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## CoreyB (Jan 17, 2016)

I got to cut wood all day with some friends one had a dolmar 35 and 420 the other had a stihl 026. 
I still stand by that for limbing and small trees the 421 would be my first choice but I know I would be happy with a 241 or 261 as well.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I got to cut wood all day with some friends one had a dolmar 35 and 420 the other had a stihl 026.
> I still stand by that for limbing and small trees the 421 would be my first choice but I know I would be happy with a 241 or 261 as well.



Glad to hear it.


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## birddogtg (Jan 17, 2016)

I got an idea,since you want a lighter smaller saw I'll trade you a ported 421 or a ported husky 550 for that 661.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

birddogtg said:


> I got an idea,since you want a lighter smaller saw I'll trade you a ported 421 or a ported husky 550 for that 661.



What I wish, is to be able to either add the MS241 and MS261 to the "Poll Question" to be able to redo it completely and have those saws listed.

Birddog, if either of those saws will hold up to cutting a 4 foot Osage Orange at the same rate and same manner as my 661 you got a deal.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 17, 2016)

Is there an easy say to get a moderators attention, or would posting things like curse words be the fastest way to get their help?


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## SAWMIKAZE (Jan 17, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is there an easy say to get a moderators attention, or would posting things like curse words be the fastest way to get their help?



Just be a pusssy and complain , that usually works.


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## KG441c (Jan 17, 2016)

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Just be a pusssy and complain , that usually works.


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## Jimbo209 (Jan 18, 2016)

buy the 2x 421 dolmars for about the ms241. strip and mod 1 run it and learn to tune (get a tacho as well). Ifff it goes sour then use the other and leave it with a conservative MM


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

Please NOTE gentleperson's, that the Great and powerful Moderator's have spoken, and Lo

You may now vote for the:
Stihl MS241
Stihl MS261

In the poll at the top of the thread. (Should you wish, you can even change your votes)


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 18, 2016)

Everyone has their own wants and needs. I like the lightest saw available with the best PWR, but the 421 is an exception. 


Try to run all the saws mentioned and pick the one you like. 

A poll is just everyone giving THEIR opinion, YOUR'S is the only one that matters.
#patheticbuddies


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## kantuckid (Jan 18, 2016)

You might take a look at my(somewhat) similar, recent thread, where I was looking for a smaller, yet powerful saw for old age...
I just read through this one and no disrespect but my thread got to a decent conclusion much faster
Honestly speaking, even this old fart could have downed the two small pole sized trees showing in the OP's picture ,(with a wally world poulan) in less time than I just spent wading through this thread!!!
You might want to note that almost zero stihl dealers stock the saw I just bought,241. I did find one at a new store as part of their initial display saw lineup. The new MSRP is $620.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 18, 2016)

You paid as much for your 241 than i did for my JRed 2260[emoji1]


#patheticbuddies


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

kantuckid said:


> I just read through this one and no disrespect but my thread got to a decent conclusion much faster
> 0.



Well we have wandered far afield of the main topic in this thread, and yet still returned to the main topic (something most threads cannot accomplish without overt direction/instruction), and people must like talking with me more .



kantuckid said:


> Honestly speaking, even this old fart could have downed the two small pole sized trees showing in the OP's picture ,(with a wally world poulan) in less time than I just spent wading through this thread!!!



Could the wally world Poulan have held up to doing that from 7am until 5:30 pm for three weeks straight? .....


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Well we have wandered far afield of the main topic in this thread, and yet still returned to the main topic (something most threads cannot accomplish without overt direction/instruction), and people must like talking with me more .
> 
> 
> 
> Could the wally world Poulan have held up to doing that from 7am until 5:30 pm for three weeks straight? .....


If u notice something though everyone including myself think there opinion is The Ten Commandments!!! Lol!! Nothin but a pissing match


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

Michael if u want an opinion on someone who cuts daily Kenjax( Chris) is the one who would know. He likes the pricepoint of a 421 and I like the performance of a 241c


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## kantuckid (Jan 18, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> You paid as much for your 241 than i did for my JRed 2260[emoji1]
> 
> 
> #patheticbuddies



I stated the new MSRP, nothing more. I said I found one. The real meaning behind that was that I wanted to hold the saw as I was in the middle of a deal to buy- the one I now have coming from CA.
Truth is, that if it came down the $621 plus 6% KY tax, I'd have bought either Jonsereds 2250, EchoCS361P or Husky 543XP to get into a lighter "senior saw". And, I'm like a kid in the candy store waiting on the 241

My intention was to share the simple fact that it's a very expensive saw and having seen the new price @ a new store(Rural King,Winchester,KY), I passed it along.

I bought a lightly used pawnshop saw.

I guess in 11,000 posts one has to be fast on the draw? 

Like Joe Friday always said on Dragnet, "the facts mam, just the facts".

OP: As for the Poulan saw thing, lighten up, I was just teasing you based on a picture you used to show the size of trees, not the "how many" you can cut in a day/3weeks. I know you fellers down there in MS are hard workers. 
You've been beating us in football for several yrs running!
Thus, I am not in a pissin match! Sorry if it bothered someone.


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## CoreyB (Jan 18, 2016)

Go to each dealer and put each saw in some wood. Your decision would be a lot easier then having us confuse you with brand loyalty or projecting our wish list on you. You may find you base your decision solely on which dealer treats you better. And seems to care about you as a customer.


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

kantuckid said:


> I stated the new MSRP, nothing more. I said I found one. The real meaning behind that was that I wanted to hold the saw as I was in the middle of a deal to buy- the one I now have coming from CA.
> Truth is, that if it came down the $621 plus 6% KY tax, I'd have bought either Jonsereds 2250, EchoCS361P or Husky 543XP to get into a lighter "senior saw". And, I'm like a kid in the candy store waiting on the 241
> 
> My intention was to share the simple fact that it's a very expensive saw and having seen the new price @ a new store(Rural King,Winchester,KY), I passed it along.
> ...


I think the man probably likes a quality product hence his purchase of a 661c being the highest dollar saw in the 90cc range. Dont think he is looking for a run of the mill farm and ranch pawn shop saw? If he wants to spend his money wisely it would be a dolmar 421 pro built saw for 300$ imo


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## windthrown (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> There is another old saying, You can lead a horse to water but u cant make him drink.....7 sleeper I see your perspective of saws, uses, applications, porting, to port or not to port, sizes in applications are all one sided and you are thinking u r 100% right about everything and thats the way it is? No sense in me posting videos, articles, or discussing porting to prove to you anything? Seems to me you have wasted alota time on here since 2008 getting yourself very confused and convincing yourself you are 100% right about everything



That is uncalled for... I have known 7 here and on some European sites. You are being a southern turd here, buddy. A real floater.


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

windthrown said:


> That is uncalled for... I have known 7 here and on some European sites. You are being a southern turd here, buddy. A real floater.


So the man offers his opinion and pretty much tells me im lying and an idiot and I post my feelings in return and u have the right to call me a southern turd???? Lol!!!


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## windthrown (Jan 18, 2016)

Well, you can really dish out your opinionated crap, like you claim that others do here. Case in point:



KG441c said:


> Dont buy into the myth that porting lessens dependability. Actually u are supplying the cylinder with more fuel, which is what cools the engine and not the oil, and opening the exhaust up and letting it breath and release more heat



You seem to think (and preach) that all ported saws are improvements over stock. Its not a myth and in many cases (that I have seen) porting most definitely can lower saw dependability and greatly reduce longevity. I have also run ported saws that were complete turds. I have seen ported saws lock up and fail rapidly. Racing saws are ported to the point of being useless for more than a few minutes before they overheat. Which is what they are intended to do for racing, but they are useless in the woods.

As 7 pointed out, there are many levels of porting. What you are referring to here is muffler modification and exhaust and intake port modification. That may increase breathing of the 2-stroke and improve performance, or it may not. They can be done right, within the capacity of the saw to function properly, and they can also be done wrong when things are taken too far and produce a useless saw. After muffler and port mods, there are cut squish and pop up mods that are intended to raise compression. That is where the real power from porting comes from. However, doing that (using the standard method of removing material from the base of the jug or removing the gasket) will change port timing, and that leads to all kinds of issues if you do not do other modifications to compensate. You can make a turd really fast by screwing up mechanical timing. You can also push the compression too high, and put way too much stress on the bearings and rod, leading to premature (or even rapid) failure. I have seen saw crews send saws out to be "woods" ported, and over the long haul, they failed a lot faster than their stock counterpart saws.

Bottom line, it is a fine line to get a saw right when being ported, and the herd of turds out there that have also been ported. I think it is a myth that saws will turn into magic machines if they are ported, and that people here all need to get their saws ported to run with the "big boys". I would rather have a stock MS290 in the hands of a pro faller than a ported MM 562xp in the hands of a novice. Who would fall more trees and stay out of trouble?


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## 7sleeper (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> So the man offers his opinion and pretty much tells me im lying and an idiot and I post my feelings in return and u have the right to call me a southern turd???? Lol!!!


Well all you have stated is your opionion and all I did is state my opionion, if you feel like you do, well then nobody in the world can help you. 

7


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Well, you can really dish out your opinionated crap, like you claim that others do here. Case in point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And why are my opinions crap and anything u just stated no more than your opinions and more valuable?


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Well all you have stated is your opionion and all I did is state my opionion, if you feel like you do, well then nobody in the world can help you.
> 
> 7


All I did was offer my opinion and I felt u was givin me alil kick in the sac. Sorry for the insult my man


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## CoreyB (Jan 18, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Well, you can really dish out your opinionated crap, like you claim that others do here. Case in point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well said and the op has a 661 for more power and every saw he has has asked about will discuss a fine job . Just the 421 and 241 will most likely hold up better. Be that he liked the 250 I think he would be very happy to get any of them. I will refer to just for to the dealers and test them out.


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## Woody912 (Jan 18, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> The Teddy Bear story originated in Mississippi, and we do still have 3-4 wild bears


They removed a bear from a tree in downtown Jackson couple yrs back. Think they are getting pretty common in the Delta, first documented births couple years back


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## CoreyB (Jan 18, 2016)

Just an FYI the best dealer in my area carries dolmar, the stihl dealer could care less if anyone was in the store or not. In fact they make you feel like you are an inconvenience to be in the store. So I buy Dolmar's and am happy they are a very good saw at a good price.


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## windthrown (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> And why are my opinions crap and anything u just stated no more than your opinions and more valuable?



I did not say that my opinions are any more valuable than anyone else's here. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements in attacking 7.

I also think I am right though, especially when it comes to the over-inflated case of saw mods and porting on this site. Saw porting is a cult here, and has led to insane flame wars over pop-up vs squish cut mods. They were, and continue to remain, epic. Over what? The method used to increase compression? Both work. Which method is better though has lead to nuclear war, and the carnage is strewn out over more than a dozen online forums. Darin removed the modders as sponsors recently because of the latest attacks by the pro squish-cut fanatics. Lots of people here were sent to band camp. SVK quit as a mod here because of the fall out. It has reached the level of political insanity, really.


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Just an FYI the best dealer in my area carries dolmar, the stihl dealer could care less if anyone was in the store or not. In fact they make you feel like you are an inconvenience to be in the store. So I buy Dolmar's and am happy they are a very good saw at a good price.


Just the opposite her in La. Hardly anyone has heard of Dolmar much less own one. Ivr ran several that were very nice strong saws though. Strictly Stihl country here


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

windthrown said:


> I did not say that my opinions are any more valuable than anyone else's here. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements in attacking 7.
> 
> I also think I am right though, especially when it comes to the over-inflated case of saw mods and porting on this site. Saw porting is a cult here, and has led to insane flame wars over pop-up vs squish cut mods. They were, and continue to remain, epic. Over what? The method used to increase compression? Both work. Which method is better though has lead to nuclear war, and the carnage is strewn out over more than a dozen online forums. Darin removed the modders as sponsors recently because of the latest attacks by the pro squish-cut fanatics. Lots of people here were sent to band camp. SVK quit as a mod here because of the fall out. Its insane, really.


I happen to totally disagree with the porting not helping in almost every saw I have ported . Maybe yall need a different port guy over there? 2 saws that I have seen that do run good factory though r a 044/440 and a 064. If I was gonna run factory which I choose not to, Dolmar would be my choice as most I have ran has bumped compression from the factory and r runners out of the box, BUT!! I havent seen one of thoso that couldnt be made to run better ported


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## 7sleeper (Jan 18, 2016)

windthrown said:


> I did not say that my opinions are any more valuable than anyone else's here. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements in attacking 7.
> 
> I also think I am right though, especially when it comes to the over-inflated case of saw mods and porting on this site. Saw porting is a cult here, and has led to insane flame wars over pop-up vs squish cut mods. They were, and continue to remain, epic. Over what? The method used to increase compression? Both work. Which method is better though has lead to nuclear war, and the carnage is strewn out over more than a dozen online forums. Darin removed the modders as sponsors recently because of the latest attacks by the pro squish-cut fanatics. Lots of people here were sent to band camp. SVK quit as a mod here because of the fall out. It has reached the level of political insanity, really.


I see it similar! It is really ruining great communities when people become some kind of fanatics. The cyber attack years ago was nothing compared to what is going on now. This and other forums are practically dead. 

A real shame! 

7


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## 7sleeper (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> I happen to totally disagree with the porting not helping in almost every saw I have ported . Maybe yall need a different port guy over there? 2 saws that I have seen that do run good factory though r a 044/440 and a 064. If I was gonna run factory which I choose not to, Dolmar would be my choice as most I have ran has bumped compression from the factory and r runners out of the box, BUT!! I havent seen one of thoso that couldnt be made to run better ported


Well if you believe you have a chance to make some coin then do it and keep up with your agenda. 

7


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Well if you believe you have a chance to make some coin then do it and keep up with your agenda.
> 
> 7


More or less a hobby for me as I have a day job with time restraints. I would love to be able to port everyday but I have to many years invested in the company I work for to belly up. I guess if u port u see things differently from a performance and mechanical standpoint but if someone doesnt understand ones view of that I guess it would be harder to see their opinions as valuable in a discussion where 99% run factory saws


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> View attachment 479565
> 
> If u notice something though everyone including myself think there opinion is The Ten Commandments!!! Lol!! Nothin but a pissing matchView attachment 479565



YEEEH gads, here I thought I had been blatant enough to be taken as being tongue-and-cheek. Apparently I was NOT successful.

I was NOT trying to get into a pissing match with


kantuckid said:


> .


And for what it might add, I did not have any free time during the day to respond to all the reply's, so unfortunately I could not correct my mistake fast enough not to look like and even bigger butthead.




KG441c said:


> Michael if u want an opinion on someone who cuts daily Kenjax( Chris) is the one who would know. He likes the pricepoint of a 421 and I like the performance of a 241c



Cool, and thank you for pointing this out



kantuckid said:


> OP: As for the Poulan saw thing, lighten up, I was just teasing you based on a picture you used to show the size of trees, not the "how many" you can cut in a day/3weeks. I know you fellers down there in MS are hard workers.
> You've been beating us in football for several yrs running!
> Thus, I am not in a pissin match! Sorry if it bothered someone.



**Sigh**.... I was trying to be light hearted..... I mean did I truly make you feel like I was sincere when I said:



Michaelmj11 said:


> and people must like talking with me more .



I was hoping that, the previous sentence would then add it's tone to


Michaelmj11 said:


> Could the wally world Poulan have held up to doing that from 7am until 5:30 pm for three weeks straight? .....



But like I said, I fail at conveying, that I it was my intention for those sentences to be read AS light hearted. And right on about not being in a pissing match, I honestly did not intend to make you feel that I was headed in that direction.



NOW, on to topics of more substance, or at least pertaining to saws.




windthrown said:


> You seem to think (and preach) that all ported saws are improvements over stock. Its not a myth and in many cases (that I have seen) porting most definitely can lower saw dependability and greatly reduce longevity. I have also run ported saws that were complete turds. I have seen ported saws lock up and fail rapidly.
> 
> As 7 pointed out, there are many levels of porting. What you are referring to here is muffler modification and exhaust and intake port modification. That may increase breathing of the 2-stroke and improve performance, or it may not. They can be done right, within the capacity of the saw to function properly, and they can also be done wrong when things are taken too far and produce a useless saw. After muffler and port mods, there are cut squish and pop up mods that are intended to raise compression. That is where the real power from porting comes from. However, doing that (using the standard method of removing material from the base of the jug or removing the gasket) will change port timing, and that leads to all kinds of issues if you do not do other modifications to compensate. You can make a turd really fast by screwing up mechanical timing. You can also push the compression too high, and put way too much stress on the bearings and rod, leading to premature (or even rapid) failure. I have seen saw crews send saws out to be "woods" ported, and over the long haul, they failed a lot faster than their stock counterpart saws.
> 
> Bottom line, it is a fine line to get a saw right when being ported, and the herd of turds out there that have also been ported. I think it is a myth that saws will turn into magic machines if they are ported, and that people here all need to get their saws ported to run with the "big boys". I would rather have a stock MS290 in the hands of a pro faller than a ported MM 562xp in the hands of a novice. Who would fall more trees and stay out of trouble?




I felt that this was a nice point to take into consideration, that I had yet to see expressed, or at least expressed in such a summarized yet detailed manner.






CoreyB said:


> Go to each dealer and put each saw in some wood. Your decision would be a lot easier then having us confuse you with brand loyalty or projecting our wish list on you. You may find you base your decision solely on which dealer treats you better. And seems to care about you as a customer.



So are you suggesting that a dealer will allow a saw off the sales floor to be taken out back and tried out? I mean I know car dealerships allow test drives, but they have a whole section/division for washing the mud off the 4x4 you went mudding in..... I had honestly never thought to as a saw shop to do this.... if going out back of the shop and cutting some with a saw off the sales floor IS what you are suggesting, is this a common practice? Have you ever seen a shop that would not allow this?


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> YEEEH gads, here I thought I had been blatant enough to be taken as being tongue-and-cheek. Apparently I was NOT successful.
> 
> I was NOT trying to get into a pissing match with
> And for what it might add, I did not have any free time during the day to respond to all the reply's, so unfortunately I could not correct my mistake fast enough not to look like and even bigger butthead.
> ...


Pissin match wasnt for u Michael lol!! It was for myself and a few others. When u put a bunch of nutsacs, ego, and pride together it will always be a pissin match! Especially if their is a southern turd involved!!


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

NOW, it seams..... let me start over.

You two have, in recent posts, made arguments against Porting, or at least that Porting can seriously shorten Life Span.

It sounded like you two were in agreement that doing Muffler and Intake and Exhaust "ports"/adjustments, would extend the life of a saw, because it would help the saw breath better and thus hopefully stay cooler.

You guys somewhere also mentioned that the Muffler, Intake, and Exhaust "porting" would not add much power to a saw. So, IF you were going to have your saw ported, what would.... how would you instruct your mechanic in order to make certain.... make it clear that you did not want any porting that would adversely affect the longevity, but at the same time would improve the saws Power beyond what little gains were had from the Muffler, Intake, and Exhaust "porting"



You seamed to make the strongest counter arguments, so same question. 
How would you instruct your mechanic in order to make certain.... make it clear that you did not want any porting that would adversely affect the longevity, but at the same time would improve the saws Power beyond what little gains were had from the Muffler, Intake, and Exhaust "porting"


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Pissin match wasnt for u Michael lol!! It was for myself and a few others. When u put a bunch of nutsacs, ego, and pride together it will always be a pissin match! Especially if their is a southern turd involved!!



Naaah, it's the culture clash, southerners are more.... "prone" (i'm not saying that this ALWAYS happens, but simply TENDS towards that direction) to be passive aggressive, UNTIL you poke them too much and you then get a Face FULL of Southerner. What I expect from Northerners/Yanks is for them to tend to be more direct from the get go, and tell you. I Don't like You, but that doesn't mean I can't talk to you, just know that you push my buttons, so if you push them expect results.

So when a southerner has finally had enough, and the northerner is already getting his buttons pushed lightly by the southerner, and the southerner REALLY starts smashing buttons for all he's worth....... THAT's when things get violent =)


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

Michael ill keep it short. Dont buy into the ******** about ported saws arent as good or wont last as long. All I can say is they must have the wrong porters in their saw. Get the saw u want and send to Mastermind, Brad Snelling, millermoddedsaws, Mdavlee, tlandrum, treemonkey and u will have a saw that will last along time amd perform better than stock no doubt


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Michael ill keep it short. Dont buy into the ******** about factory saws r is good and last longer. All I can say is they must have the wrong porters in their saw. Get the saw u want and send to Mastermind, Brad Snelling, millermoddedsaws, tlandrum, treemonkey and u will have a saw that will last along time amd perform better than stock no doubt



Well, i think that they had a valid point that even if you sent a saw to those respected (mostly) modders, and told them to woods port it within an inch of it's life. That the longevity would quite possibly suffer. And shoot everyone has off days, so I can quite understand how Wind has seen a fair share of ported door stops.

It sounds like how burning CDs was when the first personal/Home CD burners came out, 95% of the time you got a CD, 5% of the time you got a coaster, a really pretty really expensive coaster, but a coaster none-the-less. (remember when blank CDs were really expensive?)


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Well, i think that they had a valid point that even if you sent a saw to those respected (mostly) modders, and told them to woods port it within an inch of it's life. That the longevity would quite possibly suffer. And shoot everyone has off days, so I can quite understand how Wind has seen a fair share of ported door stops.
> 
> It sounds like how burning CDs was when the first personal/Home CD burners came out, 95% of the time you got a CD, 5% of the time you got a coaster, a really pretty really expensive coaster, but a coaster none-the-less. (remember when blank CDs were really expensive?)


Totally untrue. Anyone of thoso guys I mentioned wont port your saw beyond a woodsport that will last a long time. They know what they r doing


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Totally untrue. Anyone of thoso guys I mentioned wont port your saw beyond a woodsport that will last a long time. They know what they r doing



Cool, I stand corrected. Good to know.


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## KG441c (Jan 18, 2016)

I will say this that porting will put alil more load on the bottomend because of the increased compression thus being the reason most all porters recommend 32:1 oil ratio


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 18, 2016)

KG441c said:


> I will say this that porting will put alil more load on the bottomend because of the increased compression thus being the reason most all porters recommend 32:1 oil ratio



So that is more oil, right?


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## CoreyB (Jan 18, 2016)

Yes any dealer worth a ...... will let you run the saw in wood. I have even taken a log with me to cut on before. If they won't let you try it out do you think they actually care about your satisfaction? Some saw shops have demo modles of popular models. The dealer I go to puts a tank through each saw before it hits the shelf. They say by doing it that way gives them the insurance they are giving their customers a good saw and ready to go to work right out of the door.
I would bet if my dealer sold stihls I would not have a dolmar. However he used to sell stihl and is now selling Dolmar's.


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## windthrown (Jan 19, 2016)




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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

windthrown said:


> View attachment 479799



Lol


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Who me?


No u know im referring to windthrowns little sheep skit


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## windthrown (Jan 19, 2016)

I lived on a sheep ranch in Southern Oregon when I joined this site. I heard all the jokes... and then some.

Even Randy (Mastermind) admits he has built some turds.


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## CoreyB (Jan 19, 2016)

Option c sell the 660 buy a dolmar 6100, (I took out a truckload yesterday with it) and grab a rear handle 192 and you will have an almost perfect set up.
You could be like me. Lol


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Option c sell the 660 buy a dolmar 6100, (I took out a truckload yesterday with it) and grab a rear handle 192 and you will have an almost perfect set up.
> You could be like me. Lol



Naaah I'd get a 201


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## CoreyB (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Naaah I'd get a 201


If I could afford one I would as well


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

windthrown said:


> I lived on a sheep ranch in Southern Oregon when I joined this site. I heard all the jokes... and then some.
> 
> Even Randy (Mastermind) admits he has built some turds.


Never said I havent built a few myself !! Lol!!


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## wde_1978 (Jan 19, 2016)




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## windthrown (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Never said I havent built a few myself !! Lol!!



But you posted a list of mod gods that would build a saw that would last and out-cut a stock saw in your post above... never a turd shall be built, or some such, even though some in that same list have admitted to me to having built turds. Some of the better builders in that list, actually.


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

windthrown said:


> But you posted a list of mod gods that would build a saw that would last and out-cut a stock saw in your post above... never a turd shall be built, or some such, even though some in that same list have admitted to me to having built turds. Some of the better builders in that list, actually.


Nope. Wont agree with u on that one and I believe u r 100% wrong. Everyone of thoso guys have built enough saws that they know the numbers to put in them to make it sing. I say this because everyone of them have helped me understand and learn porting and Ive used their methods and techniques to port my own saws. Im sure everyone of them have built turds along the way learning but I can tell u for 100% sure they all have quality and peformance in porting figured out. Ive ran saws from everyone of them and know how each builder builds and how they run and the style of port and attitude their saws have in them. Still if I am not sure on a certain saw I contact one of them and get the correct #s and dos and donts. All I can say is if yall have had bad experiences with ported saws undoubtedly the porters yall r using r saw hacks? Less performance and less dependable arent factors in the saws of thoso builders I mentioned. I know everyone of thoso builders well enough to know if they build a saw and ruin it or make it a turd they would do whatever it took to make it right. U arent giving thoso guys that have businesses and reputations on the line enough credit and that they would be honest with their work. Do u think Randy would send a saw out that was a turd and have people talking and downing his busniess? I can anwser that as I know he wouldnt


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Windthrown I would venture to say you are against ported saws and also 32:1 oil ratio? Are u a 50:1 style guy?


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## windthrown (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Nope. Wont agree with u on that one and I believe u r 100% wrong. Everyone of thoso guys have built enough saws that they know the numbers to put in them to make it sing. I say this because everyone of them have helped me understand and learn porting and Ive used their methods and techniques to port my own saws. Im sure everyone of them have built turds along the way learning but I can tell u for 100% sure they all have quality and peformance in porting figured out. Ive ran saws from everyone of them and know how each builder builds and how they run and the style of port and attitude their saws have in them. Still if I am not sure on a certain saw I contact one of them and get the correct #s and dos and donts. All I can say is if yall have had bad experiences with ported saws undoubtedly the porters yall r using r saw hacks? Less performance and less dependable arent factors in the saws of thoso builders I mentioned. I know everyone of thoso builders well enough to know if they build a saw and ruin it or make it a turd they would do whatever it took to make it right. U arent giving thoso guys that have businesses and reputations on the line enough credit and that they would be honest with their work. Do u think Randy would send a saw out that was a turd and have people talking and downing his busniess? I can anwser that as I know he wouldnt



Such devout blind loyalty. Deny it all you want. Randy at least has admitted he has messed up saws. Believe it or not. I also believe that Brad does not really understand what he is doing. He refutes what the engineers that designed these saws say, even when I posted direct information from them here. These modders are not gods, nor are the infallible. I have seen and also run many of their saws (from your list of modders here, as well as others who IMO can port a saw better than most of them can). Some ported saws work well, but some ported saws do not. You want to put them on a pedestal and make such broad sweeping bogus claims that you know what each and every one of them does to the level that you say here, and I say you are completely full of BS, buddy. I would go further to classify you as a complete fool.

But I am used to blind loyalty and the types of people that you typify. I worked in a failure analysis lab in San Diego for 3 years and I saw all kinds of failures result from so-called bullet-proof technology. I am also a multiple degreed engineer with 20 some odd years of experience in design and development of all kinds of products, and I would never, ever make a statement like the one you have made here, with such certainty, about such a broad group of un- or undereducated people. Nothing is ever 100% bud. Nothing. They are not infallible. They are also not restricted by regulations, they have no warranty policy, they have no oversight, and in most cases what they do is illegal. But do not let me stop your illusion of reality, or your devout loyalty to the mod gods. It seems to be a religion to you.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Such devout blind loyalty. Deny it all you want. Randy at least has admitted he has messed up saws. Believe it or not. I also believe that Brad does not really understand what he is doing. He refutes what the engineers that designed these saws say, even when I posted direct information from them here. These modders are not gods, nor are the infallible. I have seen and also run many of their saws (from your list of modders here, as well as others who IMO can port a saw better than most of them can). Some ported saws work well, but some ported saws do not. You want to put them on a pedestal and make such broad sweeping bogus claims that you know what each and every one of them does to the level that you say here, and I say you are completely full of BS, buddy. I would go further to classify you as a complete fool.
> 
> But I am used to blind loyalty and the types of people that you typify. I worked in a failure analysis lab in San Diego for 3 years and I saw all kinds of failures result from so-called bullet-proof technology. I am also a multiple degreed engineer with 20 some odd years of experience in design and development of all kinds of products, and I would never, ever make a statement like the one you have made here, with such certainty, about such a broad group of un- or undereducated people. Nothing is ever 100% bud. Nothing. They are not infallible. They are also not restricted by regulations, they have no warranty policy, they have no oversight, and in most cases what they do is illegal. But do not let me stop your illusion of reality, or your devout loyalty to the mod gods. It seems to be a religion to you.



Wooohw there tex, just because someone has been educated in a non-formal way, does NOT mean they aren't educated, nor should their education be so lightly dismissed. 

I may not know all the in's and out's or mechanics. But I bet when KG441C said that these saw porting dudes "never make a turd" he ment something like they make a proportionally smaller number of turds than Stihl/Husky/name you major manufacturer, make coming right off the assembly line.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

I think a large portion of this problem is semantics, and ..... non-engineers being to loose with some of their word choices/phrasing, and the engineer(s) being too exerting in their prasision (bah humbug on spelling)


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## CoreyB (Jan 19, 2016)

I do try and buy a saw that fits my needs. I don't want to have to buy a saw then spend more money and have a saw built to fit my needs. Although having a hot rod is fun but we all know they are not best for trips back and forth across the country. 
For storm clean up , if your saw breaks you are not going to find a shop with any free time to fix your saw or get you parts if needed. That is why the 421 is a great choice very reliable and easy enough to work on any small engine guy / back yard mechanic can work on it.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> I do try and buy a saw that fits my needs. I don't want to have to buy a saw then spend more money and have a saw built to fit my needs. Although having a hot rod is fun but we all know they are not best for trips back and forth across the country.
> For storm clean up , if your saw breaks you are not going to find a shop with any free time to fix your saw or get you parts if needed. That is why the 421 is a great choice very reliable and easy enough to work on any small engine guy / back yard mechanic can work on it.



And the MS241 and MS261 are not simple enough for everyone to work on?


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## CoreyB (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> And the MS241 and MS261 are not simple enough for everyone to work on?


Needs a computer if carb troubles


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Computer? All Ive seen is an ignition coil with a sensor that senses rpm and controls a solenoid on the carb. The rest of the saw is the exact same as a standard quad saw.


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

The carb is the same as a standard carb with the exception of the fuel solenoid in place of the manual high/low side adjustments


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## CoreyB (Jan 19, 2016)

Sorry I thought they had auto tune.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Needs a computer if carb troubles


that's what I was afraid of. So how much does one of these computers cost, or are they identical to the ones automobile mechanics use?


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

CoreyB said:


> Sorry I thought they had auto tune.


Ive never seen or used autotune but the mtronics system is a really simple system. Just the programmed ignition coil and a solenoid. Im not really up on the diagnostic app. They have at the dealer but do know that 9 times out of 10 if there is an mtronics error its the fuel solenoid which is about 12$ and takes maybe 2 minutes to change


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## Franny K (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> And the MS241 and MS261 are not simple enough for everyone to work on?





CoreyB said:


> Sorry I thought they had auto tune.


And were/are strato. Isn't there really 6 transfer and strato ports.

I am sure changing the pull chord, spark plug, servicing the cutting attachment, servicing the air filter, and normal stuff I might do over the years is basically the same. I also do not think problems on here sound like my friends that use the most modern site work machines. They say once a problem is detected, a fault I suppose about all you can do is limp to a flat area and call service.


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## windthrown (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Windthrown I would venture to say you are against ported saws and also 32:1 oil ratio? Are u a 50:1 style guy?



You continue to make grand sweeping statements and presume to know things. Why would I be against 32:1 oil, and what does that have to do with porting? Oil ratio has nothing to do with porting. Nor is more oil going to save a turd or a ported saw that is too far beyond its design limits (for example, bearing stress) . Also you say I am against porting saws, which is also completely inaccurate. Yet... you make these statements and presumptions about me.

If you must know (though you claim to know everything already, hence this is likely a waste of my time), I am not set on any particular oil ratio, though I prefer and recommend 40:1, and more precisely 42:1 because that is what you get when you add 3 oz. of oil per gallon of gas. A tad more oil makes for a better ring seal and helps lubricate the low end better -on any 2-stroke saw, not just ported ones-. I also use premium non-ethanol E-0 gas, if you must know. I am also not against porting saws, and I have ported quite a few of my own to various levels. What I am against is the constant reply to everyone here that asks 'what saw to buy' is: _get it ported, man!_ Regardless of make, model, experience of the user, need, finances, intended use, etc. etc. The answer is always: _get the saw ported_. The saw modders have so saturated this marketplace that ported saws are the end all to everything, which they are simply not. Nor are the saw modders infallible, but you profess that they can only make perfect saws 100% of the time and they never make turds. Which simply is not the case, nor is it even statistically possible.

There are other issues about porting saws though. One is that once a saw is ported, you cannot get them worked on at a shop. By law, shops have to restore any saw that they work on to original condition and that all EPA devices work as they did when the saw was new. For that reason a lot of people around here will not buy a ported saw. Another common theme with ported saws that I have seen on sites like this are that people get saws ported, and either they do not meet their expectations and think they are turds, or they exceed their expecations and the saws are too much for them. Either way, they wind up selling those saws. I have also seen a lot of ported saws up for trade for the same model stock saws. Again, the ported saws are not what the owner wants or wanted, for whatever reason and they offload them. Now that said, if you are in need of a saw that is lighter and has more power, great! Get it ported! But do some research first, as I believe that some porting methods are far better than others (I go with a squish cut mod myself). Or if you race saws, well then, port it or come in last. That is a different world though, and it is well known in these parts that a race ported saw will not last long. Nor will they run for long without overheating. I also know a lot of fallers that have had saws woods ported, and in many cases, they filed far earlier than their stock counterparts. Just my experience and what I have seen here.


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Franny K said:


> And were/are strato. Isn't there really 6 transfer and strato ports.
> 
> I am sure changing the pull chord, spark plug, servicing the cutting attachment, and normal stuff I might do over the years is basically the same. I also do not think problems on here sound like my friends that use the most modern site work machines. They say once a problem is detected, a fault I suppose about all you can do is limp to a flat area and call service.


There is a recalibration process that usually clears most glitches that takes about 3 minutes to follow


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> The carb is the same as a standard carb with the exception of the fuel solenoid in place of the manual high/low side adjustments



But I don't have to "tune" anything right, it is the magic system that mechanical handicapped people can use?

Someone mentioned it being useful to learn how to tune a carb, in regards to the 421, would learning how to tune a carb be useful regarding my MS661?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

windthrown said:


> You continue to make grand sweeping statements and presume to know things. Why would I be against 32:1 oil, and what does that have to do with porting? Oil ratio has nothing to do with porting. Nor is more oil going to save a turd or a ported saw that is too far beyond its design limits (for example, bearing stress) . Also you say I am against porting saws, which is also completely inaccurate. Yet... you make these statements and presumptions about me.
> 
> If you must know (though you claim to know everything already, hence this is likely a waste of my time), I am not set on any particular oil ratio, though I prefer and recommend 40:1, and more precisely 42:1 because that is what you get when you add 3 oz. of oil per gallon of gas. A tad more oil makes for a better ring seal and helps lubricate the low end better -on any 2-stroke saw, not just ported ones-. I also use premium non-ethanol E-0 gas, if you must know. I am also not against porting saws, and I have ported quite a few of my own to various levels. What I am against is the constant reply to everyone here that asks 'what saw to buy' is: _get it ported, man!_ Regardless of make, model, experience of the user, need, finances, intended use, etc. etc. The answer is always: _get the saw ported_. The saw modders have so saturated this marketplace that ported saws are the end all to everything, which they are simply not. Nor are the saw modders infallible, but you profess that they can only make perfect saws 100% of the time and they never make turds. Which simply is not the case, nor is it even statistically possible.
> 
> There are other issues about porting saws though. One is that once a saw is ported, you cannot get them worked on at a shop. By law, shops have to restore any saw that they work on to original condition and that all EPA devices work as they did when the saw was new. For that reason a lot of people around here will not buy a ported saw. Another common theme with ported saws that I have seen on sites like this are that people get saws ported, and either they do not meet their expectations and think they are turds, or they exceed their expecations and the saws are too much for them. Either way, they wind up selling those saws. I have also seen a lot of ported saws up for trade for the same model stock saws. Again, the ported saws are not what the owner wants or wanted, for whatever reason and they offload them. Now that said, if you are in need of a saw that is lighter and has more power, great! Get it ported! But do some research first, as I believe that some porting methods are far better than others (I go with a squish cut mod myself). Or if you race saws, well then, port it or come in last. That is a different world though, and it is well known in these parts that a race ported saw will not last long. Nor will they run for long without overheating. I also know a lot of fallers that have had saws woods ported, and in many cases, they filed far earlier than their stock counterparts. Just my experience and what I have seen here.



I do not think many suggestedgetting the 421 ported, people seem more "port happy".... if you will, regarding Stihl and Husky.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

Hey, this guy had a intriguing question. 




Michaelmj11 said:


> But I don't have to "tune" anything right, it is the magic system that mechanical handicapped people can use?
> 
> Someone mentioned it being useful to learn how to tune a carb, in regards to the 421, would learning how to tune a carb be useful regarding my MS661?



And useful regarding any other M-tronic's saw


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Silly little intellectual showoff isnt he.



**goes looking for a 4x4 to pound head against**

Why provoke the situation?


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> But I don't have to "tune" anything right, it is the magic system that mechanical handicapped people can use?
> 
> Someone mentioned it being useful to learn how to tune a carb, in regards to the 421, would learning how to tune a carb be useful regarding my MS661?


Michael your 661 is mtronics the same as the 241c and 261c and wont require tuning. The 241c and 261c will both operate the same as the 661 you have


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## Franny K (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> But I don't have to "tune" anything right, it is the magic system that mechanical handicapped people can use?
> 
> Someone mentioned it being useful to learn how to tune a carb, in regards to the 421, would learning how to tune a carb be useful regarding my MS661?


Are these things tools or a hobby for you.

There are porting threads on here about the Dolmar 420. It is a less complex cylinder If you do not tamper with the muffler the saw should be delivered correctly. I find if you buy in person from the owner of a dealership they generally say run it for a while and bring it back for a check up. Only once did I bother to do that no charge.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Michael your 661 is mtronics the same as the 241c and 261c and wont require tuning. The 241c and 261c will both operate the same as the 661 you have



Yah, ok but earlier talking about shade-tree mechanics, people were saying that



CoreyB said:


> I do try and buy a saw that fits my needs. I don't want to have to buy a saw then spend more money and have a saw built to fit my needs. Although having a hot rod is fun but we all know they are not best for trips back and forth across the country.
> For storm clean up , if your saw breaks you are not going to find a shop with any free time to fix your saw or get you parts if needed. That is why the 421 is a great choice very reliable and easy enough to work on any small engine guy / back yard mechanic can work on it.



And then KG441c said that M-tronic saws DO have carb adjustments simply that the magic M-tronic's God's do all the adjusting for those of us who pay heed to their rumbling vibrations.

So if there are carb adjustments to be had on my saw, why are they there if I can only screw things up "adjusting" things?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

Franny K said:


> Are these things tools or a hobby for you.
> 
> There are porting threads on here about the Dolmar 420. It is a less complex cylinder If you do not tamper with the muffler the saw should be delivered correctly. I find if you buy in person from the owner of a dealership they generally say run it for a while and bring it back for a check up. Only once did I bother to do that no charge.



A little of both, but the hobby part is more about the knowledge relating to how the tools work.... does that make sense?


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Yah, ok but earlier talking about shade-tree mechanics, people were saying that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer manual carbs myself and control of my tune but for anyone that doesnt know how to tune or doesnt care to have to the mtronics is simply a Godsend as it will take care of all adjustments for you. Tuning is fun to me Michael and not hard to learn but if u miscalculate and go too lean its easy to burn the equipment up


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## Franny K (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> So if there are carb adjustments to be had on my saw, why are they there if I can only screw things up "adjusting" things?


altitude temperature humidity are at the top of the list.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

Franny K said:


> altitude temperature humidity are at the top of the list.



But the 661's M-tronic's makes thosense adjustments, right? But at the same time isn't KG441c saying that the saw still can be manually adjusted?


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## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2016)

For the love of all that's holy I have no idea why I'm weighing into this.

I earn money with saws, about 1/4-1/3 of my working days. I have a mix of stock, lightly modded and ported saws.

Opinion 1 - there is more in correct chain choice and sharpening than in having a saw ported when it comes to wood on the ground at the end of the day.

Opinion 2 - ported saws are offensive in urban environments - until you start a chipper, then go your hardest. 

Opinion 3 - if you end up a long way from fuel, stock or lightly modded saws put more wood on the ground.

Opinion 4 - in steep/difficult work a ported saw means you can carry a smaller saw to run the required bar length.

Opinion 5 - some saws virtually need modifications to get back what the EPA has forced upon them. Anything with a cat in the muffler should be modified irrespective of warranty concerns. Maybe run a tank or two to make sure it's ok, but mod that damn thing straight away.

Opinion 6 - some saws are pretty sweet out of the box, but none that I know of can't be improved. On some saws these improvements force a different set of compromises that don't suit every user.
The 241 is one of these saws, it is incredibly economical and I could take advantage of how long it runs on a tank of fuel. Some modifications have little bearing on a saws fuel economy, some modifications have a big bearing.

Opinion 7 - the worst of the saws being discussed in this thread - the 250/251 will do the job of limbing out blow downs for years and years absolutely stock. I have a husky 445 that is probably a similar quality saw that has done countless hours, worn out several bars and is still earning money.

Opinion 8 - if only my penis was a little longer, my opinions would be facts.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

Here I will be less of a...... here, I'll be more direct. 

Are the M-tronic (MS241 MS261 MS661) saws more difficult to "feild" repair than others say the Dolmar 421.

OR more difficult for some just random mechanic to fix?


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## Franny K (Jan 19, 2016)

Some of the mtronic or auto tune saws do have some minor adjustments possible. It gets hard to tell exactly which model some of this is about.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

weedkilla said:


> For the love of all that's holy I have no idea why I'm weighing into this.
> 
> I earn money with saws, about 1/4-1/3 of my working days. I have a mix of stock, lightly modded and ported saws.
> 
> ...



Dude, you need to get paid as a technical manual writer or something. 

Thank you.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

Franny K said:


> Some of the mtronic or auto tune saws do have some minor adjustments possible. It gets hard to tell exactly which model some of this is about.



Ahh, sorry for the confusion.

I own a 661, but am contemplating buying (in the M-tronic's line) an MS241 and MS261. There is a 3rd saw under consideration but I KNOW it has to have carb adjustments done.


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## Franny K (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Ahh, sorry for the confusion.
> 
> I own a 661, but am contemplating buying (in the M-tronic's line) an MS241 and MS261. There is a 3rd saw under consideration but I KNOW it has to have carb adjustments done.


I could figure out that much but these conversations wander around. If the third saw is the Dolmar 421 I believe the current models have a fully adjustable low speed circuit and a peg like thing that needs a special socketed tool to do the high speed. No limiters. The owners manuals for the Stihl products are downloadable from Stihl and I have found workshop manuals with google or similar that are free with a bit of work though have not tried for these models.


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## KG441c (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Ahh, sorry for the confusion.
> 
> I own a 661, but am contemplating buying (in the M-tronic's line) an MS241 and MS261. There is a 3rd saw under consideration but I KNOW it has to have carb adjustments done.


The 241 and 261 will operate the same as your 661. No adjustments necessary


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

weedkilla said:


> Opinion 1 - there is more in correct chain choice and sharpening than in having a saw ported when it comes to wood on the ground at the end of the day.



Is there a thread that you can point to that has a book discussion about Correct Chain/Bar choices? 

Or a website that explains why XYZ chain is better for doing one thing, and not another?


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## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Is there a thread that you can point to that has a book discussion about Correct Chain/Bar choices?
> 
> Or a website that explains why XYZ chain is better for doing one thing, and not another?


This may be better answered by someone else. I haven't looked that stuff up in ages. 
Id take the advice of someone who cuts in similar conditions locally over anything on the internet though. 
Or I can tell you about how I'm setting up a 90cc saw with 404 chipper chain and how I hope you never need to do the same!


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 19, 2016)

weedkilla said:


> This may be better answered by someone else. I haven't looked that stuff up in ages.
> Id take the advice of someone who cuts in similar conditions locally over anything on the internet though.
> Or I can tell you about how I'm setting up a 90cc saw with 404 chipper chain and how I hope you never need to do the same!



I'm ......... Very respectful...... of my 90cc saws power and chain already. I have no interest in putting a 404 on it.

But here is a....... hopefully..... easy question. 

Why don't they make the bars on professional/bigger saw's thinner than the homeowners? I would think that with the same powerhead, a thinner bar/chain would cut faster than a wider bar/chain.


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## weedkilla (Jan 19, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> I'm ......... Very respectful...... of my 90cc saws power and chain already. I have no interest in putting a 404 on it.
> 
> But here is a....... hopefully..... easy question.
> 
> Why don't they make the bars on professional/bigger saw's thinner than the homeowners? I would think that with the same powerhead, a thinner bar/chain would cut faster than a wider bar/chain.


In a way they often do.

While a 50cc homeowner saw is flat out pulling 18" 325, a pro model does it with ease and can pull a bigger chain if desired. For the power, the pro model is running a thinner chain, for the cc it is the same.

The reason you don't want 404 chipper is its a slow cutting choice that stays pretty sharp in horrible wood. 404 square is just plain fun in soft wood and gets you in trouble when you put your socks in the wash!


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## 7sleeper (Jan 20, 2016)

KG441c said:


> Windthrown I would venture to say you are against ported saws and also 32:1 oil ratio? Are u a 50:1 style guy?


You sure are some arrogant guy, without any respect for other opions. Always trying to appear the nice guy but always the dishonest arrogant underton apperant. And all this stupidity talk about non-engineers being on equal level, where are all the developments done by non engineers? Let's see those pics of the self developed chainsaws, car's, phone's, etc. No doubt there are self taught fellows out there with a very high level of knowlegde, but I heve never heard any such BS, like you are loud mouthing around, from them.

Well it seems like it is time to call you out! Where are all your ported saws? What timing numbers did you use? Why did you use those timing numers and not different one's? Ah yes I forgot you never developed the numbers yourself, you are just copying other's work which they provide to you. But I am still waiting for any videos at all. Where are any detail photos of your work so that other's here can make their own opinion? Come on, you are recomending a bunch of other modders, but are judging over others with an arrogance this is close to spectacular.

To be honest, you are the prime example why I am constantly comming less and less to this site!

I'm out of this prime example of stupidity talk in a thread.


windthrown said:


> Such devout blind loyalty. Deny it all you want. Randy at least has admitted he has messed up saws. Believe it or not. I also believe that Brad does not really understand what he is doing. He refutes what the engineers that designed these saws say, even when I posted direct information from them here. These modders are not gods, nor are the infallible. I have seen and also run many of their saws (from your list of modders here, as well as others who IMO can port a saw better than most of them can). Some ported saws work well, but some ported saws do not. You want to put them on a pedestal and make such broad sweeping bogus claims that you know what each and every one of them does to the level that you say here, and I say you are completely full of BS, buddy. I would go further to classify you as a complete fool.
> 
> But I am used to blind loyalty and the types of people that you typify. I worked in a failure analysis lab in San Diego for 3 years and I saw all kinds of failures result from so-called bullet-proof technology. I am also a multiple degreed engineer with 20 some odd years of experience in design and development of all kinds of products, and I would never, ever make a statement like the one you have made here, with such certainty, about such a broad group of un- or undereducated people. Nothing is ever 100% bud. Nothing. They are not infallible. They are also not restricted by regulations, they have no warranty policy, they have no oversight, and in most cases what they do is illegal. But do not let me stop your illusion of reality, or your devout loyalty to the mod gods. It seems to be a religion to you.


Let it be windthrown, we have a saying here: don't let yourself be pulled in a discussion to the level of the idiot, he will beat you there through his experience.

7


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## Jeffkrib (Jan 20, 2016)

Look i think you guys are missing the point, all saw builders make turds! I'd say on average one a day. Im pretty sure it makes now difference if your a good or bad saw builder either.


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## KG441c (Jan 20, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> You sure are some arrogant guy, without any respect for other opions. Always trying to appear the nice guy but always the dishonest arrogant underton apperant. And all this stupidity talk about non-engineers being on equal level, where are all the developments done by non engineers? Let's see those pics of the self developed chainsaws, car's, phone's, etc. No doubt there are self taught fellows out there with a very high level of knowlegde, but I heve never heard any such BS, like you are loud mouthing around, from them.
> 
> Well it seems like it is time to call you out! Where are all your ported saws? What timing numbers did you use? Why did you use those timing numers and not different one's? Ah yes I forgot you never developed the numbers yourself, you are just copying other's work which they provide to you. But I am still waiting for any videos at all. Where are any detail photos of your work so that other's here can make their own opinion? Come on, you are recomending a bunch of other modders, but are judging over others with an arrogance this is close to spectacular.
> 
> ...


I dont think so buddy. U r asking me to prove something to u but then u tell windthrown to not be pulled in ? Lol!! I got news for u , the reason no one is left on this site and went to the new site is people like Windthrown. Actually I checked around with several respected memebers and ask about u 2 and actually everyone spoke up for u but ill give u one guess on the one person that no one had one good thing to say about. And for the record I never said myself or the list of porters hadnt made a few saws that wasnt up to par but id venture to say everyone of the guys I listed have names and business to uphold and no they wont let a bad saw go out the door. And no im not a dishonest guy and yes I do try to treat people with respect until my buttons r pushed. Good day fellows


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## KG441c (Jan 20, 2016)

Jeffkrib said:


> Look i think you guys are missing the point, all saw builders make turds! I'd say on average one a day. Im pretty sure it makes now difference if your a good or bad saw builder either.


I have a question. Do you know Randy Evans or Brad Snelling? Thoso 2 guys have ported very very many saws and know if the saw they ported when they test cut with it responded well? My question is they have a signature sticker on each saw they send out and why would they mess a saw up and put their signature business sticker on it and send it out to get bad feedback? That wouldnt be very good return business ethics?


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## KG441c (Jan 20, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> I see it similar! It is really ruining great communities when people become some kind of fanatics. The cyber attack years ago was nothing compared to what is going on now. This and other forums are practically dead.
> 
> A real shame!
> 
> 7


News flash! Including this site!


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## KG441c (Jan 20, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> You sure are some arrogant guy, without any respect for other opions. Always trying to appear the nice guy but always the dishonest arrogant underton apperant. And all this stupidity talk about non-engineers being on equal level, where are all the developments done by non engineers? Let's see those pics of the self developed chainsaws, car's, phone's, etc. No doubt there are self taught fellows out there with a very high level of knowlegde, but I heve never heard any such BS, like you are loud mouthing around, from them.
> 
> Well it seems like it is time to call you out! Where are all your ported saws? What timing numbers did you use? Why did you use those timing numers and not different one's? Ah yes I forgot you never developed the numbers yourself, you are just copying other's work which they provide to you. But I am still waiting for any videos at all. Where are any detail photos of your work so that other's here can make their own opinion? Come on, you are recomending a bunch of other modders, but are judging over others with an arrogance this is close to spectacular.
> 
> ...


For the record I posted a video earlier in this thread of my buddy John cutting with my ported 241c that was wihin 1 sec of a reputable builders 346xp. The # s r 105/118/74 and not one of the porters I mentioned use thoso #s. The strato was also gutted in the 241 and here is a pic. For reference if u need to copy but i have no intentions to sit here and explain each little detail and why I did it


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## CoreyB (Jan 20, 2016)

I still say the op just needs to go try a 241 and a 421. And just buy which ever he likes best, or from which dealer he likes best. Buying a new saw is a big decision but I don't think it is this big guys.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 20, 2016)

We just won a bid to trim 12k trees by the end of April. Its all bucket and lift work on side streets so its easy work, i just hope my non-ported muffler modded 421 and 201t/192t with muffler mods and timing advances hold up using 40:1 HP2[emoji1]


#patheticbuddies


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> We just won a bid to trim 12k trees by the end of April. Its all bucket and lift work on side streets so its easy work, i just hope my non-ported muffler modded 421 and 201t/192t with muffler mods and timing advances hold up using 40:1 HP2[emoji1]
> 
> 
> #patheticbuddies



Lol, congratulations. Where abouts is this taking place? Might come watch the 421 in action.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 20, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Lol, congratulations. Where abouts is this taking place? Might come watch the 421 in action.


Won't be a whole of 421 action, that was to stir the pot a little. Mostly 201T or 192T they're a lot lighter and easier to (dare i say it) use one handed to cut and throw.


#patheticbuddies


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

KG441c said:


> I dont think so buddy. U r asking me to prove something to u but then u tell windthrown to not be pulled in ? Lol!! I got news for u , the reason no one is left on this site and went to the new site is people like Windthrown. Actually I checked around with several respected memebers and ask about u 2 and actually everyone spoke up for u but ill give u one guess on the one person that no one had one good thing to say about. And for the record I never said myself or the list of porters hadnt made a few saws that wasnt up to par but id venture to say everyone of the guys I listed have names and business to uphold and no they wont let a bad saw go out the door. And no im not a dishonest guy and yes I do try to treat people with respect until my buttons r pushed. Good day fellows



Well, that there is funny, considering Randy is happy to see me on the other new site. I actually know him pretty well. You are such a tool. Keep digging buddy. I am not here for a popularity contest. Nor do I give a lick about what you think about me.


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## KG441c (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Well, that there is funny, considering Randy is happy to see me on the other new site. I actually know him pretty well. You are such a tool. Keep digging buddy. I am not here for a popularity contest. Nor do I give a lick about what you think about me.


U just dont stop do u? Ill add u to my ignore list now and on *** so I dont have to waste my thoughts on u anymore buddy


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> Let it be windthrown, we have a saying here: don't let yourself be pulled in a discussion to the level of the idiot, he will beat you there through his experience.
> 
> 7



Yah, you are right. There is just no educating some people.

_A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool. -_The Buddha


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Well, that there is funny, considering Randy is happy to see me on the other new site. I actually know him pretty well. You are such a tool. Keep digging buddy. I am not here for a popularity contest. Nor do I give a lick about what you think about me.






KG441c said:


> U just dont stop do u? Ill add u to my ignore list now and on *** so I dont have to waste my thoughts on u anymore buddy





windthrown said:


> Yah, you are right. There is just no educating some people.
> 
> _A fool who recognizes his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool. -_The Buddha



Good grief, NONE of this belongs in a forum. The ONLY reason you would be posting it here is to beat your own chests and stroke egos. IT BELONGS IN PRIVATE MESSAGES.

The really great part is that when you two FINALLY simmer down and stop personally attacking the other. Lovely intelligent individuals like 7sleeper come along and egg you two on again. He doesn't contribute to anybody point, or add meaningful dialog to the discussion, he just stirs things up only to what....? To say



7sleeper said:


> I'm out of this prime example of stupidity talk in a thread.
> 
> 
> 7





7sleeper said:


> You sure are some arrogant guy, without any respect for other opions. Always trying to appear the nice guy but always the dishonest arrogant underton apperant. And all this stupidity talk about non-engineers being on equal level, where are all the developments done by non engineers? Let's see those pics of the self developed chainsaws, car's, phone's, etc. No doubt there are self taught fellows out there with a very high level of knowlegde, but I heve never heard any such BS, like you are loud mouthing around, from them.
> 
> Well it seems like it is time to call you out! Where are all your ported saws? What timing numbers did you use? Why did you use those timing numers and not different one's? Ah yes I forgot you never developed the numbers yourself, you are just copying other's work which they provide to you. But I am still waiting for any videos at all. Where are any detail photos of your work so that other's here can make their own opinion? Come on, you are recomending a bunch of other modders, but are judging over others with an arrogance this is close to spectacular.
> 
> ...




I can create a thread that's titled "Windthrown hates KG441c and KG441C hates Windthrown. ... now everybody cheer!"

You both seem like nice people who are genuine in your attempts to help others, but Private Message for pity's sake!


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

You are new here. This is AS, where we put it all out there for everyone to see. This site has been like this since I joined up. Bar brawls are common. Just the way that it is. This is nothing. We have had epic wars like the one between Randy and Brad that spilled over to many other sites and has lasted for years. That war is still going on here and on other sites. Forget PMs, or conversations as they are called here. Not gonna happen.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> You are new here. This is AS, where we put it all out there for everyone to see. This site has been like this since I joined up. Bar brawls are common. Just the way that it is. This is nothing. We have had epic wars like the one between Randy and Brad that spilled over to many other sites and has lasted for years. That war is still going on here and on other sites. Forget PMs, or conversations as they are called here. Not gonna happen.



Like I said, forget education and polite discussion, I'm gonna pound my chest and prove mines bigger than yours. And then when someone else does it back to you, you become insulted and angry......


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## super3 (Jan 20, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> And all this stupidity talk about non-engineers being on equal level, where are all the developments done by non engineers?




While that is true to form most of the time. Not 100%.

The 056 MagII cylinder was copied from a ported loggers saw.


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

Michaelmj11 said:


> Like I said, forget education and polite discussion, I'm gonna pound my chest and prove mines bigger than yours. And then when someone else does it back to you, you become insulted and angry......



So you want to fight with me now? Is that your point here?


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> So you want to fight with me now? Is that your point here?



Nope, in fact your statement quite nicely proves my point =)


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

Ah, a wise guy. I wish you luck around these parts. My advice to you is to pick a side, or stay out of the way.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Ah, a wise guy. I wish you luck around these parts. My advice to you is to pick a side, or stay out of the way.



Lol


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## RedFir Down (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> So you want to fight with me now? Is that your point here?





windthrown said:


> Ah, a wise guy. I wish you luck around these parts. My advice to you is to pick a side, or stay out of the way.


Never give an inch...


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## Cody (Jan 20, 2016)

Just get a 261 already...


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

Cody said:


> Just get a 261 already...


Gadly, just looking for a Canadian Stihl dealer with one of the Type II 261s.

In complete sincerity, do you know any?


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## KiwiBro (Jan 20, 2016)

I love mid-Winter cabin fever in the Northern Hemisphere. Always good for a few handbags-at-dawn episodes on AS.
;-)


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 20, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> I love mid-Winter cabin fever in the Northern Hemisphere. Always good for a few handbags-at-dawn episodes on AS.
> ;-)



That Would explain quite a bit, I forget that folks further north have problems with cabin fever.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 20, 2016)

On that note:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-blog-assessing-late-week-heavy-snow-threat/


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## 7sleeper (Jan 21, 2016)

super3 said:


> While that is true to form most of the time. Not 100%.
> 
> The 056 MagII cylinder was copied from a ported loggers saw.


And I actually believe that Stihl simply copied Brad's / blsnelling legendary work on improving the horrible first generation 201 and brought it out as generation II 201. It was all too obvious and actually saved the model from extinction. 

7


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## KiwiBro (Jan 21, 2016)

RedFir Down said:


> Never give an inch...


That's part of why I like reading windy's posts. Good info, articulated well, and the pretenders can cough from a long way away (*hows that, mods? you gonna warn this rifffffrafff for foul language now?)


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