# Carbon Analysis On Piston Crown



## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm curious as to whether or not this is normal carbon formation on a piston crown. This is the P&C from my new MS440. It has only seen maybe a dozen tanks of fuel. The saw has not been run excessively rich, or lean for that matter. What's odd is the the combustion chamber and exhaust port are both clean. The carbon on the piston crown was extremely hard and very difficult to remove. 

Most of you know that I run Klotz R50 at 32:1. My questions are this. Is this normal? If not, is this the result of running R50? Is it the result of running 32:1? What do the masses think. And please don't just blurt out, oh you're running it too rich. Give me a reason why you think what you do.


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## REJ2 (Apr 22, 2010)

I dont know the exact answers your looking for but you could try the next dozen tanks with a different mix and or ratio. I suspect that you definitely suspect that its not right. Wonder what fifty tanks would look like? Too nice a saw for that to continue. REJ2


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## pioneerguy600 (Apr 22, 2010)

Brad, why the 32:1? I have always found that carbon build up is from something you are putting into the combustion chamber, usually too much oil or fine sawdust. No scratches on the intake side of the piston so my guess would be too much oil. The intake side of the piston appears to run cooler and the center the hottest.
Pioneerguy600


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## Arrowhead (Apr 22, 2010)

I would try a 50:1 mix. Clean it up completely and run Stihl 50:1 for the same amount of tanks and see if it makes a difference.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

In order to pin down the source, I think I would need to only change one thing at a time. Do I change oils or ratio first? I'm nearly out of R50 anyway and have lots of Woodland Pro Synthetic. I have thought of running it a 40:1 though. The saw will be ported though. That's why it's apart. The thing of it is, I'm seeing this on all of my saws that I tear down.


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## FATGUY (Apr 22, 2010)

even your ported saws look like that?


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## luvsaws (Apr 22, 2010)

What gas do you run?


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## indiansprings (Apr 22, 2010)

Brad, I would personally think this is way abnormal for the amount of use/fuel you've run through the saw. I"ve torn down much older/used saws with a fraction of that build up. I think it may be the 32:1, don't know about the Klotz, I'm sure it's good stuff. I would clean it up like new, and run either Woodland Syn or Ultra at 50:1 and see what it looks like after the same amout of tanks. I think based on what I've seen with my saws, that you won't have a fraction of that build up. What does the arrestor screen look like if it is still using one. I would be concerned about that much build up in such a short period of time myself.


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## mtngun (Apr 22, 2010)

Nothing wrong with 32:1, many CSM'ers use 32 or 40:1, yes we get some carbon build up. Only thing unusual in your case is the build up on the piston but not the chamber. 

Other than the obvious, I'm wondering if the piston was a little hot ? That might explain why the carbon baked onto the piston but not the chamber.

Didn't you mention a while back that you had a case of WP synthetic ? How 'bout this: clean up the piston, run a dozen tanks with 32:1 WP synthetic, and report back.


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## dingeryote (Apr 22, 2010)

Also take a gander at the Fuel itself.

"Winter blend" gasoline has a rather nasty buch of chemicals added to maintain EPA emissions compliance, and may be conspiring with the R50 in an undesirable manner.

That IS wierd. 

See what happens with summer gas after the same number of hours maybe?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## 7sleeper (Apr 22, 2010)

I have no idea and am no saw tech but I have just started to take my saws apart. I am wondering if this is of any importance that the cylinder seems to be unevenly worn at the bottom.






Compared to the other side





Of course if you have this with all your saws I would believe that the oil is the culprit.

7


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## dingeryote (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> In order to pin down the source, I think I would need to only change one thing at a time. Do I change oils or ratio first? I'm nearly out of R50 anyway and have lots of Woodland Pro Synthetic. I have thought of running it a 40:1 though. The saw will be ported though. That's why it's apart. The thing of it is, I'm seeing this on all of my saws that I tear down.



All on the same fuel bought from the same place over the last several months?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## albert (Apr 22, 2010)

Looks like the piston is getting too HOT. Baked oil under side and baked or discolored above the exhaust side top ring. I would try the wp synthetic @ 40 or 50:1 What fuel are you using. Looks like the transfers need to be evened up.


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## 04ultra (Apr 22, 2010)

2008 model 7900 Mobil 2T at 50-1 about 200+ tanks ports are clean.........93 octane non eth ......





.


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## Gumnuts (Apr 22, 2010)

Pretty sure you would be meticulous with your settings and mix....but /
You say new / 10 tanks.
Have you really put her to work yet ? Is she ported yet /cyl ?
Just thinking she has only done short runs ,dare i say, often, not a full throt.
Was run in.... rich ,to long ,before re-setting.
Does look excessive even if. .02


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> even your ported saws look like that?


Yes. Maybe not as much, but still the same kind of carbon formation.



luvsaws said:


> What gas do you run?


Shell Premium Unleaded.



indiansprings said:


> What does the arrestor screen look like if it is still using one.


I removed it right away.



mtngun said:


> I'm wondering if the piston was a little hot ? That might explain why the carbon baked onto the piston but not the chamber.


No signs of heat on the bottom side



mtngun said:


> Didn't you mention a while back that you had a case of WP synthetic ? How 'bout this: clean up the piston, run a dozen tanks with 32:1 WP synthetic, and report back.


I think I like that idea, although I may cheat and go to 40:1.



7sleeper said:


> I am wondering if this is of any importance that the cylinder seems to be unevenly worn at the bottom.


I see that on the bottom of the intake skirt on nearly every saw I tear apart. Matter of fact, this is less than normal. Not an issue, IMHO.



dingeryote said:


> All on the same fuel bought from the same place over the last several months?



For the most part. Always Premium Unleaded.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

Gumnuts said:


> Pretty sure you would be meticulous with your settings and mix....but /
> You say new / 10 tanks.
> Have you really put her to work yet ? Is she ported yet /cyl ?
> Just thinking she has only done short runs ,dare i say, often, not a full throt.
> ...



I took it easy for the first few tanks, but have run it hard since then, as you would any saw. Even when I had it a little rich for breakin, it still cleaned up nicely in the cut. I never had it blubbering rich. Since break-in it has not been babied. It's always had a 28" B&C on it and has seen lots of buried cuts in Oak. Lots of full throttle extended cuts.

It has only had a muffler mod to this point. It's apart for porting.


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## Sprintcar (Apr 22, 2010)

Brad,

This is the piston I removed from an 084 that always ran at a 50/1 ratio. He swore that he always made sure the saw got only Stihl oils, until one of his employees straight gassed it. The carbon build up in comparison to the 440 piston you have shows a considerable difference.


























Hope this helps.

Jerry


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## woodgrenade (Apr 22, 2010)

For everybody else who is running 32:1 is it done using a full synthetic? I'm thinking that maybe the high oil ratio in addition to the extra cooling properties of the synthetic are leading to the excess carbon on the crown of the piston. 

If you are seeing it in all of your saws ported or not I would have to say eliminate one variable at a time just like you proposed. Either change the mix, or the oil type, but not both at once.


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## stihlboy (Apr 22, 2010)

did the wiesco pistons get deposits? i have seen deposits like that but they were on saws used alot more. it might be that it is 32:1,.

hard to tell, im interested in the findings


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## Thorcw (Apr 22, 2010)

Being an amsoil dealer and getting way to far into oil analysis then what is healthy. Your oil might have alot of non-combustable additives in it. 32:1 is also a little excessive I might go to 40:1. I run amsoil saber (I wonder why) at 50:1 they recomend 100:1 on the bottle and I have seen it done very successfully but im still not going to do it.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> did the wiesco pistons get deposits? i have seen deposits like that but they were on saws used alot more. it might be that it is 32:1,.
> 
> hard to tell, im interested in the findings



It never got run long enough to tell.


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## FATGUY (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Yes. Maybe not as much, but still the same kind of carbon formation.
> 
> 
> Shell Premium Unleaded.
> ...


then you won't know the culprit....You were running 40:1 till last year, how were they then?


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## stihlboy (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It never got run long enough to tell.



pour some gasoline in a jar then add the r50 what happens?

its quite interesting


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> then you won't know the culprit....You were running 40:1 till last year, how were they then?



I've always seen carbon buildup. This is probably the worst case I've seen thought, and thus this thread. But it's something that's been bugging me for a while.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> pour some gasoline in a jar then add the r50 what happens?



What am I looking for?


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## stihlboy (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> What am I looking for?



the alcohol seperates from the fuel and oil,

techniplate and super techniplate are alcohol compatible

R50 is not

that may be why.

might not be but its still good to know


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> the alcohol seperates from the fuel and oil,
> 
> techniplate and super techniplate are alcohol compatible
> 
> ...



That's a thought. All of our fuel here does have some alcohol in it. The fuel that I tested was less than 10% though.


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## wigglesworth (Apr 22, 2010)

How did the plug look Brad?


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## Mastermind (Apr 22, 2010)

I don't know about the gasoline in Ohio, but all Shell gas here in Tennessee has 10% ethanol in it. Is that the case there? I get all my gas from a local store that sells a "no name" fuel...100% gasoline. I for one have no love for alcohol, ie water in my gas. I also have no idea about what happens when additives, ethanol, and 2 stroke oils are mixed. I will watch this thread closely to learn more about what's happening here. That much carbon in that short of time is cause for concern IMHO.


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## TRI955 (Apr 22, 2010)

Ok, I'll bite....

Why 32:1??? I don't even run that in my Lawnboy...

All current saw manufactures say 50:1, especially running synthetic, your not milling, so why?? 


Mike


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## FATGUY (Apr 22, 2010)

a lot of guys with modded saws run 32:1. I run it in my saws, trimmer, leaf blower, lawnmower and hell, even my truck gets anything over a month old


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## jsmith40004 (Apr 22, 2010)

Like stihl boy said try super techniplate, you'll wonder why you didn't try it sooner. I run my equipment at 16:1 and don't have carbon build up like that. 

James


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## TRI955 (Apr 22, 2010)

I guess if everybody else is running 32:1 or better, I should be too.... 


Mike


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)




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## stihlboy (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> That's a thought. All of our fuel here does have some alcohol in it. The fuel that I tested was less than 10% though.



to you run it till it is empty of do you re-fuel


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## TRI955 (Apr 22, 2010)

I see the problem....Jap plug in a German saw!!!






What are you smoking Brad!!! 


Mike


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

There are a couple reasons I was running 32:1. One was that it's said to give better ring seal and therefore more power. Second was that I just considered it good insurance to protect a ported saw.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

TRI955 said:


> I see the problem....Jap plug in a German saw!!! What are you smoking Brad!!!
> 
> 
> Mike



That's the original plug.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> to you run it till it is empty of do you re-fuel



I try to always refuel before running out.


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## TRI955 (Apr 22, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> There are a couple reasons I was running 32:1. One was that it's said to give better ring seal and therefore more power. Second was that* I just considered it good insurance to protect a ported saw.*



I would think if you just would back the H and L needles off just a bit, it would be better for the saw...


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 22, 2010)

I've been running 50:1 Stihl Ultra/93 in all my saws, even the ported ones. 32:1 is just too much oil imo.


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> I've been running 50:1 Stihl Ultra/93 in all my saws, even the ported ones. 32:1 is just too much oil imo.



I'm thinking your right.


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## wigglesworth (Apr 22, 2010)

Is it just me or does that plug looks weird? The center electrode looks like it was slightly lean, as it's a more gray than brown, but the outer looks like it was rich as crap. :dunno:


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## blsnelling (Apr 22, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Is it just me or does that plug looks weird? The center electrode looks like it was slightly lean, as it's a more gray than brown, but the outer looks like it was rich as crap. :dunno:



I thouht the same thing. It's not a light grey like I would expect if lean, but it's not brown either. But the outer section looks crazy rich.


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## dingeryote (Apr 22, 2010)

Brad,

Just for purposes of edumacatin my dumb self..

Wouldn't the additional combustable fuels energy offset any losses in blowby when running 50:1 over 32:1?

Conventional wisdom is that the more of the highly expansive stuff you can get in there, the better, and is why folks started tinkering with 100:1 back when Bel-Ray was the big dog on the MX scene.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Brad,
> 
> Just for purposes of edumacatin my dumb self..
> 
> ...



You make a valid point. I was just discussing that with another member on the phone.


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## teacherman (Apr 23, 2010)

I see a significant amount of wet deposits on the threaded barrel of your plug. I run Shell Super as well. but it says specifically that there is no ethanol in it. I run Ultra at 45:1, and have never noticed any carbon buildup. In fact, I think it dissolves existing deposits, as i sometimes see black liquid around the muffler. I know nothing about Klotz or any other oil. I think Ultra is the right oil for my saws. Your piston crown shows a geat deal of hard deposits, which seem as though they could be from excessive carbonaceous material (oil) burning at very high temps (modded saw, very high rpms). Andy used to say that a richer oil ratio actually leans out the mixture, because the relative fraction of fuel is lower in the mix. Add to that the leaned out hi screw to obtain higher than factory recommended max WOT rpms, which you consistenlty report on your mod projects, and it could simply be a matter of excess oil being carbonized. I just changed the oil in my air compressor this evening, and the IR syn oil bottle said that dirty cooling fins cause excessive temperature and subsequent oil temps, and oil carbonization on the moving parts. That is with no combustion, just heat from the compression of air. So maybe it is a simple matter of lightening up the mix, or, you told us not to say it, but you may just be running it too rich.

I wonder if race car engines carbonize like that due to the higher output of the modified engines. Maybe hard mods require more frequent teardowns in saws as well.


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## stihl86 (Apr 23, 2010)

Or the oil you use isn't all it's cracked up to be. I've never seen the need for synthetic oil in a saw, as long as you use Stihl H/P. Stihl came out with Ultra for the 4-Mix (BR600 has to use it) and has been on a sale blitz with it since. Carbon is never an issue with saws when mixed at 50:1, with at least 89 octane. Many will disagree, and that's fine.


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## dingeryote (Apr 23, 2010)

teacherman said:


> I see a significant amount of wet deposits on the threaded barrel of your plug. I run Shell Super as well. but it says specifically that there is no ethanol in it. I run Ultra at 45:1, and have never noticed any carbon buildup. In fact, I think it dissolves existing deposits, as i sometimes see black liquid around the muffler. I know nothing about Klotz or any other oil. I think Ultra is the right oil for my saws. Your piston crown shows a geat deal of hard deposits, which seem as though they could be from excessive carbonaceous material (oil) burning at very high temps (modded saw, very high rpms). Andy used to say that a richer oil ratio actually leans out the mixture, because the relative fraction of fuel is lower in the mix. Add to that the leaned out hi screw to obtain higher than factory recommended max WOT rpms, which you consistenlty report on your mod projects, and it could simply be a matter of excess oil being carbonized. I just changed the oil in my air compressor this evening, and the IR syn oil bottle said that dirty cooling fins cause excessive temperature and subsequent oil temps, and oil carbonization on the moving parts. That is with no combustion, just heat from the compression of air. So maybe it is a simple matter of lightening up the mix, or, you told us not to say it, but you may just be running it too rich.
> 
> I wonder if race car engines carbonize like that due to the higher output of the modified engines. Maybe hard mods require more frequent teardowns in saws as well.




Teacherman,

Look at Brads spark plug. I was thinking the same as you untill I saw the insulator on that plug. The gunky mess is on the plug but where it shoud be about the same temp as the combustion chamber, and not on the insulator where temps would be cooler.

Makes me think that it's non comustible additives in the fuel,oil, or both that are baking on the aluminum and steel.
Kinda like the "Lead replacement" additives do when ya have a brain fart and put it in the wrong can.

It's wierd any way ya look at it.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## dingeryote (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> You make a valid point. I was just discussing that with another member on the phone.



Not trying to make a point, just wondering.

We did a lot of dinking around in the transition from air cooled to watercooled 2 strokes back then, and LOTS of wives tales are still swirling around as gospel. 

I can see where a thicker film or higher film strength, would lead to better ring seal, but how much?

LOL!!
It's all academic to me cuz I don't race anything but myself anymore.

Just wondering.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## BIGBORE577 (Apr 23, 2010)

04ultra said:


> 2008 model 7900 Mobil 2T at 50-1 about 200+ tanks ports are clean.........93 octane non eth ....



Same here, I would suspect too rich at 32:1, or crappy oil. Forgive me, recently I've been working with vintage saws that ran ratios as low as 16:1 with the crummy dino oil available at the time, with the same results Brad has had. After cleaning them up and running them with 50:1 Mobil 1 or Motul 800, I no longer have the same problems. Their P&C's remain very clean, nothing like pictured, even being as old as they are.


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## little possum (Apr 23, 2010)

JMO, I think your running too rich of mix. We run 50/1 93 or AV, and dont see that kind of buildup. There is a 044 that was used hard in the woods for numerous years with 50/1 and AV, and the p/c are pristine.

WHERE IS GARY?!?


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## WoodChuck'r (Apr 23, 2010)

Brad, were your first tanks the R50 @32:1??


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## Gumnuts (Apr 23, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> the alcohol seperates from the fuel and oil,
> 
> techniplate and super techniplate are alcohol compatible
> 
> ...


 Interesting - suggests use the higher ratio for the Kroll....but you been using Kroll for a while now.....worth checking other workers ???



BIGBORE577 said:


> Same here, I would suspect too rich at 32:1, or crappy oil. Forgive me, recently I've been working with vintage saws that ran ratios as low as 16:1 with the crummy dino oil available at the time, with the same results Brad has had. After cleaning them up and running them with 50:1 Mobil 1 or Motul 800, I no longer have the same problems. Their P&C's remain very clean, nothing like pictured, even being as old as they are.



Similar.....work saws running Stihl / Mobil 2 T @ 30-35 / 1 mimimal build up
from 20 tanks .


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

I can tell you why I think the piston crown has so much carbon buildup. First it's not the oil ratio......... It's because your running a ester based racing oil that has little to no detergents in the additive packaged, and it has a very high flash point + we have crappy fuel. Brad it also looks like the piston crown got a little hot, I know how you like to tune your saws.

With that said I've been test running a few different oils the past month or so. The reason for this is because I've also found a bit more carbon buildup than I'd like to see. I ran Echo power blend at 32:1 for years and I never saw any excessive buildup on the piston crown like I have with R50. However when I ran echo's oil the piston skirt, combustion chamber and piston rings would never look as clean as they do with R50. Check out the piston on my 7900 it looks new, and I've ran nothing but R50 at 32:1 since day one.






BTW I do not recommend running super techniplate in a non race application as it is known to have poor corrosion resistance.


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## Nitroman (Apr 23, 2010)

The patterns you are seeing are called "piston wash", a term you'd see very often on snowmachine racing forums, where wash is as important as the plug color in determining the correct jetting for the snogo for the given conditions. 

From looking at the pix, you are jetted nicely. Is this the same saw you showed the coffee colored plug a few months ago? If so you are dead on.

I just saw the photos of your plug. You are dead on. The carbon building up is because the saws aren't running full throttle all the time, and as such are running cool. If you want to get a really accurate plug reading, run the saw in a cut for as long as you can at full throttle, then shut it off while still in the cut, at full throttle. Do not let it idle. You want to see what the plug and piston look like when they are hot. Prolly try to find a log you can saw in half so you can run the saw for 1-2 minutes to burn off all that carbon on the plug. Won't happen on the piston though, but you'll see what it all looks like.

Go here for some good photos of lean, rich, and correct jetting:
http://www.bikemanperformance.com/tech_detail.php?ta=4

The fellow who showed the badly scuffed piston will find his under "lean photo".


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

Nitroman said:


> The patterns you are seeing are called "piston wash", a term you'd see very often on snowmachine racing forums, where wash is as important as the plug color in determining the correct jetting for the snogo for the given conditions.
> 
> From looking at the pix, you are jetted nicely. Is this the same saw you showed the coffee colored plug a few months ago? If so you are dead on.
> 
> ...



Nitroman thank you for the link. 

One thing to remember carbon buildup is normal, and honestly to me Brads 440 piston doesn't look all that bad.


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 23, 2010)

It's gotta be the fuel and not the mix. If a saw is run WOT on 32:1 and set up to factory specs max rpm, there should be no carbon, especially with a muff mod. The mix cannot be suspect as all 2 cycle oil is good. Must be the fuel.
John


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## ironman_gq (Apr 23, 2010)

I say its the oil not burning off and baking on to the hotter parts of the piston. You can really see where your transfers blow across the crown and intake side of the piston and keep them clean. I would switch oils and maybe go to 40:1 after the porting and see what happens. I have a worked over 044 that has about the same number of tanks through it and the ports and crown are all very clean with almost no buildup but they do look a little wet at times cause I tend to be idling between cuts and run a little rich


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 23, 2010)

Brad, it could just be a Stihl thing, we husky dudes have never experienced a problem such as what you're describing. Lol. The stihls unlike the husky's seem to missfire alot, causing carbon buildup on the piston crown which increases compression, thus exasperating the problem exponentialy, especially when running fatter mixes with cheap fuel.
I'd go husky for awhile and see if the same type of symptoms show.
I've also found this type of carbon arising when a two ring piston is used. It's just an EPA thing. JMHO
John


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## Fog1965 (Apr 23, 2010)

After loosing a saw to the EPA and ethanol, I looked at Klotz R50. But, it won't work in the Houston area as all the gasoline has ethanol in it. I called Klotz about the alcohol compatibility and after talking to them decided it wasn't worth the risk. It is "iffy" - should mix with low amounts of alcohol, and a maybe at around 10%, but no definite it will mix.

I can't find any spec sheets on the Stihl oil, so I won't be using that anymore. I have raced high performance two strokes for over 30 years, so I am going with what I have used in the past - Klotz KL200, I can get the spec sheet on that. It is a different ratio/percentage (way more than 32:1/3%), but it mixes with nitro, alcohol, and gasoline - so ethanol won't be a problem. I'm just not sold on the 50:1 oils, already tried thin oils in racing and they didn't work either. 

The main function of the oil is to protect the piston and liner, the bearings are normally never a problem in getting lubed - and in some cases get too much. If the engine is set right, there is really no such thing as too much oil - only too little. And no amount of oil will compensate for too lean a setting, I have burned down a high dollar racing engine, that had 18% oil (5.6:1), when I got it too lean. 

Fog
Gasoline is for washing parts, alcohol is for drinking, and Nitro is for racing,....


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## Cantdog (Apr 23, 2010)

*OK I'll Give it a Shot Too!!*

Firstly I know nothing about klotz and have used just about every kind of 2 stroke oil in the past. And I always ran rich on oil probably around 30-32:1. Been running 2 strokes and mixing my own fuel since 1962 or so. Growing up on an off shore island you use outboards every day from a young age. In the last couple of yrs I changed my general habits concerning oil mixture. I am much more precise when mixing fuel these days because I 've seen how to much oil affects carbon buildup in 2 strokes. 
I just looked at the piston in my 630 Super II that I put together last Aug and it has felled, limbed and fit about 15 cord of hardwood. I ported this saw to about 58% and opened the new Meteor piston up as well. More or less using your formulas and posts as my guide lines. This saw runs around 14,400 and is very strong for a 61cc saw. I am running Stihl Ultra in my saws now. The piston in this saw looks just like new. The top is still as shiny as when I put it together. I rather expected it to look just like yours. Not pluggin Ultra but it seems to burn very well and must be quite hi detergent to burn so clean.
The next thing I'm going to put out there will probably cause a lot of screaming but here goes.
I own and ride two Ducatis, a 900 SuperSport (2 valve air cooled) and a 916 SuperBike (4 valve water cooled) and occasionally consult the techs at BCM MotorSport in Laconia NH concerning tuning and injection mapping etc. BCM is one of the most well respected Ducati shops in North America. Now I must admit that when I used to fuel up the bikes it was ALWAYS Hi-test all the way. BCM techs recommend NOT running Hi-test at all on the road and only racing fuel on the track. They even discourage mid-grade as well. In other words reg gas for everything except all-out racing. The reason shows on your piston. Carbon. According to them Hi-test contains many additives that do not burn clean and cause carbon buildup on pistons, valves, valve stems and exhaust ports. The added pop of a higher octane does not out weigh the adverse ways it affects the motors it is run in and at some point will carbon up a motor to the point where it won't run as well as it would on reg gas. Not to mention the wear involved to pistons and valve trains. Like most hi quality saws Ducatis run nikasil cyls. Take it for what it's worth but I have taken their advise and only run reg gas in my saws and and Ducatis. So I do not know whether it's the Ultra or the reg gas or both that has kept the 630 nice and clean but I'm going to keep using what is working for me and my motors. Still run AV gas in the old Harley though I like the white exhaust pipes and the sound!!! Happy EarthDay!!!


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## huskystihl (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm sure that you have had plenty of thoughts on this but looking at all my eqipment when I change the plugs I had a few saws that were like that cleaned up went I went from ultra to amsoil. I also had my bg55 blower carbon up in the same process, the blower has been like that for quite sometime yet is tuned perfect according to a tach since theres really no way to get it perfect by ear yet it runs as good as the day I got it. My dealer says it's nothing to worry about but it's still not pleasant to see. I know according to stihl, amsoil causes more carbon in the 4mix equip than ultra but my 660 was horribly carboned and a different oil solved it. the dealer also noted accessive idle could be the cause but my 200t is spotless while it's only ever seen amsoil and has spent half it's life idling.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

LOTS of TREMENDOUS posts here guys. I really appreciate the input. But my mind's really in a whirl now. I'm going to put down some of my thoughts and let you guys respond again. These are not my conclusions, just thoughts and wonderings.

1. Maybe the excessive carbon buildup on the crown is due to the very high viscoisity of R50, the lack of detergents, and the very high flash point. Perhaps that dictates that it be mixed at a thinner ratio.

2. Maybe another oil would not cause carbon buildup like this at 32:1. But is the superior ester base of R50 giving more protection at say 50:1, than another oil at 32:1.

3. Is there a comparable oil to R50, ester based, that has higher detergent content?

4. I've run at 40:1 and then 32:1 because my saws are ported. But, aren't chainsaws really low output engines, due to restriction of such a small package, and the lack of a tuned pipe? Maybe I don't need that "extra protection" that I think I do.

I may call Klotz today and see what they have to say. I sent an email to Klotlubm last night. Maybe he'll pop in here.


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## TRI955 (Apr 23, 2010)

I think the doctor is over thinking the operation at this point....I have better things to lose sleep over.

What is wrong with Stihl Ultra???


Mike


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 23, 2010)

TRI955 said:


> I think the doctor is over thinking the operation at this point....I have better things to lose sleep over.



That's funny, Mike!  

I've learned a lot about oil and combustion by reading carefully through this thread. Really, it's a lot more information than I NEED to run my saws, but it's been an interesting and informative read. Thanks to those who contributed, and who will continue to do so.


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## Nitroman (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> LOTS of TREMENDOUS posts here guys. I really appreciate the input. But my mind's really in a whirl now. I'm going to put down some of my thoughts and let you guys respond again. These are not my conclusions, just thoughts and wonderings.
> 
> 1. Maybe the excessive carbon buildup on the crown is due to the very high viscoisity of R50, the lack of detergents, and the very high flash point. Perhaps that dictates that it be mixed at a thinner ratio.
> 
> ...



I do not think you should give any of this a seconds thought. I have 5000 miles on my Arctic Cat 570 (fan-cooled), oiling and running rich, no problems with carbon. On my Polaris XCR-800's (liquid), I've had as much as 6000 miles and very light carbon.
Right now my 394 has just a nice light coat like yours, and it is run in all different temps from -25*F to 65*F, but I do tune accordingly. I am running standard Husky synthetic oil.
The carbon will build to a point then stop accumulating. I think you have a good idea with using a very high quality oil, and running it rich isn't going to hurt a thing, most likely will keep your saws living for a very long time. For me, I've been running 40:1 just because and it isn't hurting my few saws.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

I just got off the phone with a Klotz tech. I'm over lubricating for my application, period. R50 works best in high RPM, high load, high heat applications. I'm not high enough on that chart to dictate 32:1. If the oil isn't burnt, it has to go somewhere, and carbon on the piston crown is the result. 

I have two options. Mix it thinner or go to another oil. He did say that 10K-12K RPMs is suffient to properly burn R50. He also suggested Motorcycle Techniplate or 50:1 Techniplate. Both are low ash content oils. Interestingly enough, these are both TC-W3 rated oil. We talked about that. That no longer means it's designed for water-cooled use. It has more to do with it being injectable. Not using it in our chainsaws is a carry over from old technology from years past. He was emphatic about NOT using Super Techniplate. He said carbon buildup would be WAY worse.

I asked him about the viscosity. R50 is the equivalent of a 50W engine oil. I asked him if that viscosity* in and of itself *dictated less oil in the mix, or gave it greater wear protection. The answer was no. It's the formulation of the oil, not it's viscosity, that makes it perform like it does.


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## FATGUY (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I just got off the phone with a Klotz tech. I'm over lubricating for my application, period. R50 works best in high RPM, high load, high heat applications. I'm not high enough on that chart to dictate 32:1. If the oil isn't burnt, it has to go somewhere, and carbon on the piston crown is the result.
> 
> I have two options. Mix it thinner or go to another oil. He did say that 10K-12K RPMs is suffient to properly burn R50. He also suggested Motorcycle Techniplate or 50:1 Techniplate. Both are low ash content oils. Interestingly enough, these are both TC-W3 rated oil. We talked about that. That no longer means it's designed for water-cooled use. It has more to do with it being injectable. Not using it in our chainsaws is a carry over from old technology from years past. He was emphatic about NOT using Super Techniplate. He said carbon buildup would be WAY worse.
> 
> I asked him about the viscosity. R50 is the equivalent of a 50W engine oil. I asked him if that viscosity* in and of itself *dictated less oil in the mix, or gave it greater wear protection. The answer was no. It's the formulation of the oil, not it's viscosity, that makes it perform like it does.



I'm a little confused. Did he say not to run r50, or not to run it at 32:1?


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

I just got off the phone with an Amsoil tech and he recommended Dominator. He said start with the 32:1 I've been running and thin it out from there. It's designed for 50:1, but there is fine at heavier ratios. He found it ineteresting that I'm only seeing fallout on the piston crown. He would expect to see it throughout the engine. He could not confirm if it was an Ester based oil. It does have anti-corrosion protection built into it.


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## Cantdog (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I just got off the phone with a Klotz tech. I'm over lubricating for my application, period. R50 works best in high RPM, high load, high heat applications. I'm not high enough on that chart to dictate 32:1. If the oil isn't burnt, it has to go somewhere, and carbon on the piston crown is the result.
> 
> I have two options. Mix it thinner or go to another oil. He did say that 10K-12K RPMs is suffient to properly burn R50. He also suggested Motorcycle Techniplate or 50:1 Techniplate. Both are low ash content oils. Interestingly enough, these are both TC-W3 rated oil. We talked about that. That no longer means it's designed for water-cooled use. It has more to do with it being injectable. Not using it in our chainsaws is a carry over from old technology from years past. He was emphatic about NOT using Super Techniplate. He said carbon buildup would be WAY worse.
> 
> I asked him about the viscosity. R50 is the equivalent of a 50W engine oil. I asked him if that viscosity* in and of itself *dictated less oil in the mix, or gave it greater wear protection. The answer was no. It's the formulation of the oil, not it's viscosity, that makes it perform like it does.




So I take it that you don't believe that fuel and what is in it plays any part in this?


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I'm a little confused. Did he say not to run r50, or not to run it at 32:1?



He said Run R50, but to thin the mix. Just experiment with it. 40:1, 45:1, 50:1. Whatever works.

If I can confirm that Amsoil Dominator is an equally high performace ester based oil, I may go that route. It sounds to have a much higher detergent additive package. Maybe I can have my cake and eat it too, and run 32:1 and have a clean piston crown.


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I just got off the phone with an Amsoil tech and he recommended Dominator. He said start with the 32:1 I've been running and thin it out from there. It's designed for 50:1, but there is fine at heavier ratios.



Hmmm, he recommended an oil used in high-performance oil injection engines (I use it in my Polaris snowmobile) for chainsaw use instead of Saber Pro? 

Did he say why Dominator instead of Saber, Brad? 

And I can tell you that after switching to Saber Pro 50:1 or 40:1, I've watched carbon deposits clear up nicely in engines that were running on other oils. I expect it's that detergent thing. The 028S I picked up awhile back had some definite buildup on top of the piston, and after about six tanks of 40:1 Amsoil, most of the buildup is gone.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Cantdog said:


> So I take it that you don't believe that fuel and what is in it plays any part in this?



I don't know. But that's not really a variable I can control. I'm not willing to pay the price to run unleaded race gas in my ***, and I don't like 100LL.

At this point I think I'm down to two choices. R50 at 50:1 or switching to Dominator. I think I'd start at 32:1 just to see what happens.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

StihlyinEly said:


> Hmmm, he recommended an oil used by high-performance oil injection engines (I use it in my Polaris snowmobile) for chainsaw use instead of Saber Pro?
> 
> Did he say why Dominator instead of Saber, Brad?



Saber is designed for 100:1 and the Dominator is designed for higher output modified engines. The detergent thing is what's enticing to me. I'm hoping that Dominator is an ester based oil. I would like to confirm that though.


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Saber is designed for 100:1 and the Dominator is designed for higher output modified engines.



Interesting. Verrrrrry interesting.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

A quick search shows that Dominator is NOT an ester based oil. It is a PAO. So who makes an ester based oil with a strong detergent additive package?


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 23, 2010)

OK, I'll bite. Why is an ester based oil preferable? Oh ####, I posted my question before I used the "search" feature! :censored:


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## edisto (Apr 23, 2010)

Cantdog said:


> In other words reg gas for everything except all-out racing. The reason shows on your piston. Carbon. According to them Hi-test contains many additives that do not burn clean and cause carbon buildup on pistons, valves, valve stems and exhaust ports. The added pop of a higher octane does not out weigh the adverse ways it affects the motors it is run in and at some point will carbon up a motor to the point where it won't run as well as it would on reg gas. Not to mention the wear involved to pistons and valve trains. Like most hi quality saws Ducatis run nikasil cyls. Take it for what it's worth but I have taken their advise and only run reg gas in my saws and and Ducatis. So I do not know whether it's the Ultra or the reg gas or both that has kept the 630 nice and clean but I'm going to keep using what is working for me and my motors. Still run AV gas in the old Harley though I like the white exhaust pipes and the sound!!! Happy EarthDay!!!



Good info Cantdog! One of the reasons I have been rethinking the use of hi-test is the amount of time it spends sitting in the tanks at the station relative to the regular gas. You just made up my mind.

Again.

(I should be getting a PayPal invoice for the 630 tonight).


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

A couple more polyolester oils to consider are: Silkolene Pro 2T, Maxima K2, and Motul 800 2T. Call me paranoid if you like, but I like the idea of running 32:1 if I can. I may just buy a bottle of each of these and see how they do. I may also just throw some R50 in there at 50:1 and see how that does. Yes, I know I'm over analyzing this, but I enjoy it.


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## edisto (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> A quick search shows that Dominator is NOT an ester based oil. It is a PAO. So who makes an ester based oil with a strong detergent additive package?



Fuchs might have an answer for you...and it's fun to say.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

edisto said:


> Fuchs might have an answer for you...and it's fun to say.



Silkolene Pro 2T


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 23, 2010)

Why not quit all the oil guessing and just go with Ultra? After all, it was designed for chainsaws....


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> Why not quit all the oil guessing and just go with Ultra? After all, it was designed for chainsaws....



If I could find evidence that it's a ester oil, I just might do that. I want the best for my equipment.


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## Cantdog (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I don't know. But that's not really a variable I can control. I'm not willing to pay the price to run unleaded race gas in my ***, and I don't like 100LL.
> 
> At this point I think I'm down to two choices. R50 at 50:1 or switching to Dominator. I think I'd start at 32:1 just to see what happens.



BCMs answer was to not run premium unleaded or mid range unleaded road gas because of the deposits it leaves behind. Regular unleaded did not do this any where near as much. The techs would laugh when tearing down a motor and say "Oh yeah another Hi-test guy" 
I was not advocating "special" gas for saws. As I said I've changed my thoughts on this subject completely. I used to run all 2 strokes rich on oil because that's the way my father taught me. Now I see over oiling as more of a danger than a help. It is an attempt to "save something to death" How many pistons have you seen with a big ugly score from a carbon chip that broke free and got wedged between tha piston and cyl wall. Carbon buildup is not good for any motor and it will not reach a point and stop building up. Carbon will adhere to itself better than anything else. In a water cooled 2 strokes it will eventually lead to "coking" which is a term used to describe severe carbon formations which will cause your rings to seize, break and you know the rest of scenario. Carbon is the "killer" of 2 strokes. I just thought it interesting that the guys "in the know" who routinely build and race 160 Horsepower, 180 MPH 2 cylinder motors would recommend a lesser grade of gas to help solve the carbon issue.


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## TRI955 (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> Why not quit all the oil guessing and just go with Ultra? After all, it was designed for chainsaws....





blsnelling said:


> If I could find evidence that it's a ester oil, I just might do that. I want the best for my equipment.



I just don't get it...I'm sure Stihl let "their" oil people design oil that will make your saw self-destruct Did I mention that I don't get it...


Mike


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## FATGUY (Apr 23, 2010)

Holy crap, thought I was confused before


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## luvsaws (Apr 23, 2010)

Cantdog said:


> BCMs answer was to not run premium unleaded or mid range unleaded road gas because of the deposits it leaves behind. Regular unleaded did not do this any where near as much. The techs would laugh when tearing down a motor and say "Oh yeah another Hi-test guy"
> I was not advocating "special" gas for saws. As I said I've changed my thoughts on this subject completely. I used to run all 2 strokes rich on oil because that's the way my father taught me. Now I see over oiling as more of a danger than a help. It is an attempt to "save something to death" How many pistons have you seen with a big ugly score from a carbon chip that broke free and got wedged between tha piston and cyl wall. Carbon buildup is not good for any motor and it will not reach a point and stop building up. Carbon will adhere to itself better than anything else. In a water cooled 2 strokes it will eventually lead to "coking" which is a term used to describe severe carbon formations which will cause your rings to seize, break and you know the rest of scenario. Carbon is the "killer" of 2 strokes. I just thought it interesting that the guys "in the know" who routinely build and race 160 Horsepower, 180 MPH 2 cylinder motors would recommend a lesser grade of gas to help solve the carbon issue.



Does this lesser grade contain ethonal?


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## little possum (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> Why not quit all the oil guessing and just go with Ultra? After all, it was designed for chainsaws....



:agree2: ^


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## Cantdog (Apr 23, 2010)

luvsaws said:


> Does this lesser grade contain ethonal?



Yes all grades up here do. So the rules of fresh fuel apply!!


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

TRI955 said:


> I just don't get it...I'm sure Stihl let "their" oil people design oil that will make your saw self-destruct Did I mention that I don't get it...
> 
> 
> Mike



I'm not remotely suggesting it's not good oil. But I'm not going to use it just because it says Stihl on the bottle, or because everyone else is running it. The fact that it's very good doesn't mean it's the best. It's my perfectionistic, or OCD, tendencies coming out, lol. I'm not knocking you, I just enjoy the search and want to run the best oil I can. I've gotten a lot of great replies here, and I appreciate it. Hopefully it benifits others along the way.


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## TRI955 (Apr 23, 2010)

Brad, not trying to give you a hard time....I guess I'm getting like my dad in some respects, if it's working, why F with it!! LOL!!! Good luck with your search Brad, I hope you find what your looking for.


Mike


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## Mastermind (Apr 23, 2010)

Brad's OCD coupled with CAD...what a ride. All I can say is it's a good thing you never got started on crack.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

It's all good I'm enjoying it, you guys are helping me out. I stopped down at the motorcycle shop at lunch time, and I bought a bottle of Maxima K2, one of the oils mentioned above that is also an ester oil. It was the only other one they had. I'm going to give that a whirl at 32:1 and see if it's any different. If not, I'll reduce my mix ratio.


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## FATGUY (Apr 23, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> Brad's OCD coupled with CAD...what a ride. All I can say is it's a good thing you never got started on crack.



Roflmfao believe me, he doesn't need it. The man's hyper enough.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> Roflmfao believe me, he doesn't need it. The man's hyper enough.



I'm tuned to 2-stroke at all times. No 4-strokin' here baby!


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## FATGUY (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm tuned to 2-stroke at all times. No 4-strokin' here baby!


you're not kidding


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## 7sleeper (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not remotely suggesting it's not good oil. But I'm not going to use it just because it says Stihl on the bottle, or because everyone else is running it. The fact that it's very good doesn't mean it's the best. It's my perfectionistic, or OCD, tendencies coming out, lol. I'm not knocking you, I just enjoy the search and want to run the best oil I can. I've gotten a lot of great replies here, and I appreciate it. Hopefully it benifits others along the way.



Hey Brad

Finally after my 36hr shift I can log back on and am really happy reading the last pages of this thread. 

I would like to recapitulate a few things:

1. A racing bike company recommends regular gas for engines designed for it. 
2. You are experimenting with oil after your experience, as far as I remember, of an AS log cutter running a really lean saw with baileys woodland pro oil, and the inside looked execellent. 
3. You are not only running your saw oil rich => 32:1, but also runnig it slower than it's designed for and are irritated about carbon build up.

For me the essence of this discussion sofar is quite easy.

1. Buy regular 89 octane gas. No high octane or race gas or anything else special.
2. Run my full synthetic unknown brand at ~ 40:1.
3. Always mix small batches that I can use up in a short time. 
4. Stay close to max rpm the saw is designed for, at least that is sufficient for my needs and I would never notice the difference when cutting my firewood.







Good luck amigo! 

And I am really interested in the next posts comming in.

Greetings

7


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> A quick search shows that Dominator is NOT an ester based oil. It is a PAO. So who makes an ester based oil with a strong detergent additive package?



Maxima Formula K2, Silkolene comp 2 premix or pro 2 sx. Brad I have a few bottles of Maxima K2 and Silkolene pro 2 sx, just let me know which one you want to try. K2 has a lower flash point at 240F VS 400F for R50. It's also a much thinner oil than R50 or Silkolene, so that's the one I'd try, it also has a better additive package than R50. I've been running this oil for about a week now, and so far I like better than Klotz.opcorn: http://www.maximausa.com/products/2stroke/formulak2.asp

Edit. Brad I see you already have some K2. I couldn't find it locally, so I ended up ordering some K2 off the net. If you can find it locally I'll likely start running it when I burn up all the R50 I have.


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> There are a couple reasons I was running 32:1. One was that it's said to give better ring seal and therefore more power. Second was that I just considered it good insurance to protect a ported saw.



There should be a Darwin award for chainsaws.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Edit. Brad I see you already have some K2. I couldn't find it locally, so I ended up ordering some K2 off the net. If you can find it locally I'll likely start running it when I burn up all the R50 I have.



They have it at the motorcycle shop 3-4 miles from here. $10/pint I'm surprised you didn't buy a bottle of Motul 800 while you were ordering


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's a quote from an acquantance of mine that doesn't post here. This came from another Klotz tech that he talked to. 

*"R50 = Not alcohol compatible. 

The R50 is ok to be used with e-10 but not recommended and e-15 is pushing the limits he said.
He also recommends R50 to be used with race gas or pure gas only for best results."*

So maybe it is a fuel related problem. The only pure unleaded I can get here is race gas at $7-$8/gallon.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I've been running this oil for about a week now, and so far I like better than Klotz.



So you've been holding out on me, have ya?:greenchainsaw: It's kind of ironic that we both switched oils and to the same one at the same time.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> So you've been holding out on me, have ya?:greenchainsaw: It's kind of ironic that we both switched oils and to the same one at the same time.



lol I told Nik a few weeks ago that I was interested in K2, but I didn't tell him I switched oils yet. I was told about 6 months ago by a Klotz rep that R50 was fine with pump gas up up 15%, I'm more concerned with this than the carbon build up. IMHO


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> lol I told Nik a few weeks ago that I was interested in K2, but I didn't tell him I switched oils yet. I was told about 6 months ago by a Klotz rep that R50 was fine with pump gas up up 15%, I'm more concerned with this than the carbon build up. IMHO



So what's the lowdown on these other ester oils and 10% alky?


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> So what's the lowdown on these other ester oils and 10% alky?


 That's a good ?? 

Maxima
9266 Abraham Way
Santee, CA 92071
Info - 619.449.5000
Fax - 619.449.9694


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## Hddnis (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm not picking on ya', Brad, but this thread has me laughing here. I'm with the guys that just buy Stihl Ultra and run it in 89 pump gas.

I can see the quest for oil being an extension of the hobby. My quest would be for something as good and simple to use as the Stihl Ultra that costs far less. Everytime I read an oil thread like this I start thinking that maybe I could find such an oil, I know it's out there. But the practical (lazy?) side of me just keeps going with what works.



Mr. HE


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> That's a good ??
> 
> Maxima
> 9266 Abraham Way
> ...



I already called and they're closed on Fridays


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> I'm not picking on ya', Brad, but this thread has me laughing here. I'm with the guys that just buy Stihl Ultra and run it in 89 pump gas.
> 
> I can see the quest for oil being an extension of the hobby. My quest would be for something as good and simple to use as the Stihl Ultra that costs far less. Everytime I read an oil thread like this I start thinking that maybe I could find such an oil, I know it's out there. But the practical (lazy?) side of me just keeps going with what works.
> 
> ...



That's OK. I'm used to it. I've been like this all my life and I understand that it would drive a lot of people crazy. I actually enjoy the quest.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> A couple more polyolester oils to consider are: Silkolene Pro 2T, Maxima K2, and Motul 800 2T. Call me paranoid if you like, but I like the idea of running 32:1 if I can. I may just buy a bottle of each of these and see how they do. I may also just throw some R50 in there at 50:1 and see how that does. Yes, I know I'm over analyzing this, but I enjoy it.



I find it fun as well. R50 is still great oil IMHO. We'll get to see the inside of a few saws that have been ran on nothing but R50 in a few hours.


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## Hddnis (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> That's OK. I'm used to it. I've been like this all my life and I understand that it would drive a lot of people crazy. I actually enjoy the quest.





No problem with you enjoying it at all. I figure on of these days I'll dig up these old threads and pick another oil to try. When that happens I'll be glad you and others have taken the trouble to try new things and share your experience with the rest of us.


I'm really surprised that this thread has been so civil. Almost gives me hope...





Mr. HE


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> I'm really surprised that this thread has been so civil. Almost gives me hope...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How much good info can you get from a guy who doesn't heat with wood, doesn't sell wood, doesn't cut wood for a living, but merely putzes around in his back yard on a stick or three a week, with more chainsaws than trees to cut? Not making any accusations, just food for thought.


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## Spitzer (Apr 23, 2010)

A very interesting thread indeed.

Motul 800 Off Road is a (single ester) based syn. oil with spl cleaning additives for moto cross engines that do not get stripped down as often as roadrace do.

Motul 800 Road Race is a (double ester) and from what i remember reading, it does not keep the engine as clean, but doesn't need to because of the regular rebuild's.

If you give Motul 800 a try, go for the Off Road one.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> I'm really surprised that this thread has been so civil. Almost gives me hope...
> 
> Mr. HE


It's refreshing!



Spitzer said:


> Motul 800 Off Road is a (single ester) based syn. oil with spl cleaning additives for moto cross engines that do not get stripped down as often as roadrace do.
> 
> Motul 800 Road Race is a (double ester) and from what i remember reading, it does not keep the engine as clean, but doesn't need to because of the regular rebuild's.
> 
> If you give Motul 800 a try, go for the Off Road one.



Excellent info! Thanks for the post.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

Spitzer said:


> A very interesting thread indeed.
> 
> If you give Motul 800 a try, go for the Off Road one.



Yup that's the one to get + I hear it smells like strawberry's.  Gary where are you??:spam:


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## indiansprings (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm with the group that also says 89 pump gas, Stihl Ultra or Baileys synthetic at 50:1, during the fall and winter firewood cutting we've burned as much as twelve gallon of mix in a week, prolly average between 7-8.5 gallon during the average cutting week. I know we're not milling, but the guys that run the saws all the time, I run as much as health allows, run the pizz out of them, they get shut down for fuel and bar oil, one fifteen minute break between eight and twelve, thirty minute lunch and one fifteen minute break between lunch and 0'dark thirty. I can't image much harder use, unless milling.
We do noodle alot of out bigger pieces and that practice seems as tough as any on a saw. I think 50:1 with a good oil is plenty of protection unless milling. I'll prolly start a can of worms but the Stihl tech I've used for years claims that the saws will survive on 70:1-80:1 during "normal" operation during
Stihls engine testing. I can't say if he's full of chit or that's the skinny from Stihl. I just know that Ultra or Baileys syn at 50:1 works for us in tough conditions with no excessive carbon fouling or saw failure.

I know I prolly violating some rule, but for those interested, do a little searching on Bob's the Oil Guy, it's a site for oil related topics just as involved as this site is with saws and the like. Tons of good info there.


----------



## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

That's some serious real world experience right there! Yes, I'm a BITOG member


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

indiansprings said:


> I'm with the group that also says 89 pump gas, Stihl Ultra or Baileys synthetic at 50:1, during the fall and winter firewood cutting we've burned as much as twelve gallon of mix in a week, prolly average between 7-8.5 gallon during the average cutting week. I know we're not milling, but the guys that run the saws all the time, I run as much as health allows, run the pizz out of them, they get shut down for fuel and bar oil, one fifteen minute break between eight and twelve, thirty minute lunch and one fifteen minute break between lunch and 0'dark thirty. I can't image much harder use, unless milling.
> We do noodle alot of out bigger pieces and that practice seems as tough as any on a saw. I think 50:1 with a good oil is plenty of protection unless milling. I'll prolly start a can of worms but the Stihl tech I've used for years claims that the saws will survive on 70:1-80:1 during "normal" operation during
> Stihls engine testing. I can't say if he's full of chit or that's the skinny from Stihl. I just know that Ultra or Baileys syn at 50:1 works for us in tough conditions with no excessive carbon fouling or saw failure.
> 
> I know I prolly violating some rule, but for those interested, do a little searching on Bob's the Oil Guy, it's a site for oil related topics just as involved as this site is with saws and the like. Tons of good info there.



Smart man.


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## Spitzer (Apr 23, 2010)

mmmmm..... I can eat more strawberry's than a donkey 

Best try some of that motul then.


----------



## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Spitzer said:


> mmmmm..... I can eat more strawberry's than a donkey
> 
> Best try some of that motul then.



MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Me love strawberries too. If it smells like strawberries, it has to be good!


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

indiansprings said:


> I'm with the group that also says 89 pump gas, Stihl Ultra or Baileys synthetic at 50:1, during the fall and winter firewood cutting we've burned as much as twelve gallon of mix in a week, prolly average between 7-8.5 gallon during the average cutting week. I know we're not milling, but the guys that run the saws all the time, I run as much as health allows, run the pizz out of them, they get shut down for fuel and bar oil, one fifteen minute break between eight and twelve, thirty minute lunch and one fifteen minute break between lunch and 0'dark thirty. I can't image much harder use, unless milling.
> We do noodle alot of out bigger pieces and that practice seems as tough as any on a saw. I think 50:1 with a good oil is plenty of protection unless milling. I'll prolly start a can of worms but the Stihl tech I've used for years claims that the saws will survive on 70:1-80:1 during "normal" operation during
> Stihls engine testing. I can't say if he's full of chit or that's the skinny from Stihl. I just know that Ultra or Baileys syn at 50:1 works for us in tough conditions with no excessive carbon fouling or saw failure.
> 
> I know I prolly violating some rule, but for those interested, do a little searching on Bob's the Oil Guy, it's a site for oil related topics just as involved as this site is with saws and the like. Tons of good info there.



I've been a member over there for sometime now. They had a guy do a very in depth review of R50. Befor he started running R50 he rebuild the engine, and took measurements of the piston, piston rings and the pin. He than ran the oil for a year than did a complete rebuild. The results were impressive, very little ware, that's what made me start running R50.

I've been told by too many people that know way more than most of the regulars on this site, including TW, E Copsy and Ed Heard to run 32:1. In fact I've been running my 2 stroke equipment on 32:1 for the last 20 years and I've never seen any carbon scoring. And to be honest I've seen more carbon issues in engines running 50:1.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Me love strawberries too. If it smells like strawberries, it has to be good!



Hahahaha.:agree2::greenchainsaw:


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## Tzed250 (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm curious as to whether or not this is normal carbon formation on a piston crown. This is the P&C from my new MS440. It has only seen maybe a dozen tanks of fuel. The saw has not been run excessively rich, or lean for that matter. *What's odd is the the combustion chamber and exhaust port are both clean.* The carbon on the piston crown was extremely hard and very difficult to remove.
> 
> Most of you know that I run Klotz R50 at 32:1. My questions are this. Is this normal? If not, is this the result of running R50? Is it the result of running 32:1? What do the masses think. And please don't just blurt out, oh you're running it too rich. Give me a reason why you think what you do.








This is what I call clean.













MS660 cylinder, 6-7 tanks of Amoco Ultimate premium unleaded(10% ethanol) mixed with Stihl Ultra @ 50:1, with one ounce per gallon Klotz Super Techniplate added.


This photo was taken after the saw was used to buck 40" White Oak, so the top end was under plenty of load. No pic of the piston, but what was on the crown wiped off with a paper towel.

Notice how clean the plug is.


My $.02

...


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> This is what I call clean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd rep you if it'd let me. 

If I'm remembering right, you cut timber professionally, no?


----------



## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> This is what I call clean.
> 
> MS660 cylinder, 6-7 tanks of Amoco Ultimate premium unleaded(10% ethanol) mixed with Stihl Ultra @ 50:1, with one ounce per gallon Klotz Super Techniplate added.
> 
> ...



That is certainly clean!


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## indiansprings (Apr 23, 2010)

Andy, no arguement from me, just saying what has worked for us, know doubt the oil you guys use is well rescearched and a quality product, no disrespect intended. My 2nd cousin is a third generation logger, they run stihl saws and the old orange bottle dino, they run a huge operation compared to our little firewood business, they run 40:1 and have prolly since the early 70's.
They don't have saws fail due to mix issues, but abuse and just plain wearing them out, they slap a new oem jug and slug on and go unitil the bearings are shot and then do a total teardown, they got a 044 on it's third rebuild. They just refuse to give up their old saws, they like em.

No two of us on here prolly use a saw in the same way day in and day out.
I run them wot, when I stop them, I've never give it a thought to let them cool down, just gas, oil and go. As fuel gets worse I may have to resort to using a better lube, who knows. I just know the results we get, little if any carbon residue, great running, and no performance issues related to the mix or it's effects on the internals, prolly can be duplicated by several combinations of mixes and quality levels of fuel.


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## Spitzer (Apr 23, 2010)

It could be the Super unleaded fuel, like some have suggested.


Maybe some fuel's don't burn clean with certain types of 2 stroke oil ?


an additive miss-match ?


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## indiansprings (Apr 23, 2010)

My fault in the fairness of full disclosure, we do add a half a can of sea foam to a five gallon can of mix every five or six five gallon cans we use. This may be contributing to the clean internals. I do think the fuel stabilizers in Ultra and Baileys work great, I'm cheap in some ways, hate to waste fuel, we've used some mix that's been left in a almost empty can, that only God knows how old it was and it ran fine, prolly not more than three months old. I know not a good practice.lol


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

Spitzer said:


> It could be the Super unleaded fuel, like some have suggested.
> 
> 
> Maybe some fuel's don't burn clean with certain types of 2 stroke oil ?
> ...



Orrrr, it could be from running nearly twice the rated amount of oil. Nah, surely not!


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## Tzed250 (Apr 23, 2010)

spacemule said:


> I'd rep you if it'd let me.
> 
> If I'm remembering right, you cut timber professionally, *no*?




No, I cut metal professionally >vvvv


<object width="960" height="770"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sCqCepWOPeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sCqCepWOPeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="960" height="770"></embed></object>


I run saws for enjoyment, but I owned a tree service for five years and I have run saws for over thirty years.





.


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## barneyrb (Apr 23, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> This is what I call clean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



50:1 plus an ounce would be ~36:1


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## Tzed250 (Apr 23, 2010)

barneyrb said:


> 50:1 plus an ounce would be ~36:1



Yes....




.


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 23, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Yes....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now ya know the world just started spining backwards due to your post right?


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## stihlboy (Apr 23, 2010)

the oil isn't the problem its that stihl brand chi-com cylinder:monkey:


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## spacemule (Apr 23, 2010)

Is Klotz castor based?


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## Tzed250 (Apr 23, 2010)

spacemule said:


> Is Klotz castor based?






The only castor based Klotz is BeNol. Super Techniplate is synthetic with 20% castor fortification.


.


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## edisto (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It's my perfectionistic, or OCD, tendencies coming out, lol.



:monkey:


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## huskystihl (Apr 23, 2010)

Just go back to the orange bottle stihl oil. I ran that crap for years and never had a saw fail and honestly never looked at the piston simply because they never petered out. I will admit that my saws ran a little stronger when I went to ultra and my daily headaches subsided. Amsoil was just conevenient since I got a dealers license for my cars and equipment and it is quite a bit less than ultra not that I would call it better but it does smell better and burns a little cleaner but theres no stabilizer added to it so for the guys that arent using gas daily or weekly mix it as needed.


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## SawJunkie (Apr 23, 2010)

I've been running Maxima 927 Castor at 40:1 in my saws. I don't have the bottle in here to look at but I remember it saying it has esters in it along with the degummed castor oil. I haven't looked at any of the pistons lately but the saws run good on the stuff plus it smells good. In fact I just got another half gallon of the stuff and that will mix roughly 21 gallons of gas. I tend to run my saws on the edge and my understanding is the Maxima 927 is excellent in that respect as it's designed for racing 2 stroke dirtbikes. So long as my plugs are that nice brown chocolate chip cookie color I don't get to excited. Ok I am rambling now, the real question is why Brad's piston has alot of carbon on it and for that I don't have a concrete answer.


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## Nitroman (Apr 23, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> A couple more polyolester oils to consider are: Silkolene Pro 2T, Maxima K2, and Motul 800 2T. Call me paranoid if you like, but I like the idea of running 32:1 if I can. I may just buy a bottle of each of these and see how they do. I may also just throw some R50 in there at 50:1 and see how that does. Yes, I know I'm over analyzing this, but I enjoy it.



Virtually all these oils are ISO-L-EDG, JASO FD, API TC rated. If you want more castor try Blendzall http://members.tripod.com/matt_87/products.html#Ultra.

I had all three of my Husky's tanks loaded with gas mix from last winter, hadn't started them for a full year (not much to cut during the summer here), and they all fired up on the fourth or fifth pull...but I run the 100LL.


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## blsnelling (Apr 23, 2010)

We took two more saws apart tonight that have been running nothing but Klotz R50 and premium pump gas. They both look excellent. The only difference is where the fuel was bought. So maybe you guys that suggested a fuel issue were right. All of the fuel around here does have a little ethanol, but less than 10%. The fuel in these two saws was bought probably 30 miles from where I live, so definately a different fuel source. 

As I mentioned earlier, this 440 is the worst I've seen. While I have seen carbon on the crown of my pistons in the past, it has looked nothing like this 440. Additionally, the plug color on this saw is unlike anything I've ever seen. My saws always have that cocoa brown color, where as this one was more of a charcoal color. I do know that different fuels can color a plug differently. Tomorrow I'm going to check my 084 that I've been running recently with the same mix. 

Meanwhile, here are the pics from tonight. These pics are from Niks 361 that I ported and has seen probably a dozen tanks since then, similiar to what this 440 has seen. As usual, the parts look even better in real life. Pics tend to put everything under a microscope.


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## stihlboy (Apr 23, 2010)

i think it may be the combustion chamber not allowing a complete burn,
its so hard to tell


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## rms61moparman (Apr 23, 2010)

I tend to think fuel issue more than oil issue too.
I've been running my saws on Klotz or 50/50 klotz and dolmar oil and havent seen anything like your pics are showing.

I'm curious why the piston had so much carbon buildup and the cylinder looked like new.


Mike


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

Like Brad said, the pics made my 361 look worse than it did. We were all pleased as punch at how everything looked. Andre's saw looked amazing as well. I don't know what caused the excessive build up on Brad's piston, but I don't think it was the oil. I'll continue confidently with Klotz @ 32:1


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## brad1000s (Apr 24, 2010)

Holly Cow fellas. Looks like she's a little lean. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

brad1000s said:


> Holly Cow fellas.* Looks like she's a little lean*. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.



I doubt that, look at the plug color.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 24, 2010)

brad1000s said:


> Holly Cow fellas. Looks like she's a little lean. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.



The difference between 32:1 and 40:1 isn't all that much. From what I saw tonight I will definitely continue running 32:1 like I have for the passed 15+ years. I've seen over heated pistons before, that's not an over heated piston, and the saw's not running lean whatsoever, it's spot on in fact.

The pics Brad posted don"t give an accurate representation of how clean everything really looked. The combustion chambers on both saws were virtually carbon free, and the bottom ends looked brand new. I've come to the conclusion Klotz R50 isn't good oil, it's awesome oil.


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## edisto (Apr 24, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> As usual, the parts look even better in real life.





FATGUY said:


> Like Brad said, the pics made my 361 look worse than it did.





Andyshine77 said:


> The pics Brad posted don"t give an accurate representation of how clean everything really looked.



So, it's the camera that's adding the buildup?

Maybe Brad should take fewer pictures of his 440 piston...or borrow Tzed's camera.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

edisto said:


> So, it's the camera that's adding the buildup?
> 
> Maybe Brad should take fewer pictures of his 440 piston...or borrow Tzed's camera.


That's a litte snide isn't it? To answer your question, no, it's unburned fuel that's adding carbon. The camera just seems to be making it look worse than it is. I can assure you the combustion chamber looked as good as any I have seen. Tzed's is extraordinary, I've frankly never seen a cylinder that has any run time on it look that clean. What he seems to have there is a mechanical anomaly. I've never heard of an engine with 100% efficiency.


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## edisto (Apr 24, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> That's a litte snide isn't it? To answer your question, no, it's unburned fuel that's adding carbon. The camera just seems to be making it look worse than it is. I can assure you the combustion chamber looked as good as any I have seen. Tzed's is extraordinary, I've frankly never seen a cylinder that has any run time on it look that clean. What he seems to have there is a mechanical anomaly. I've never heard of an engine with 100% efficiency.



I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...

I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:

"But wait! There's less!"

From a semantic standpoint, the camera shows the reality, because it picks up more detail. I get this all the time with photomicrographs pointing out things I can't see in the scope. So, it isn't better than it looks in the picture, it just looks better with your eyes than it really is.

I think it is unlikely that Tzed hit an anomaly that has 100% efficiency...but it is possible he has hit on the right mix of additives for that saw.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

edisto said:


> I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...
> 
> I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:
> 
> ...



I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine


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## edisto (Apr 24, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine



6-7 is what he said, so about half of what you had through.


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## Termite (Apr 24, 2010)

I tend to think it is the fuel.
I don't know if anyone remembers the thread I started when my Dolmar401 lost all compression due to the piston ring stuck to the bottom of it's groove. My conclusion, with the help of some of you, was the additives in the racing gas caused the black goo.
I now run 100llavgas. 
If that was winter gas it may of had some strange additives also.


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 24, 2010)

edisto said:


> I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...
> 
> I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:
> 
> ...



He took the pics with flash, it created lots of shadowing, and lots of reflection. Yes me Brad and Nik are lying about how everything looked in person. You really think anyone of us care about the results?? I have three different oil sitting on my desk right now that are likely just as good as R50, but after what saw last night I think I'm sticking with R50.


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## Tzed250 (Apr 24, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine




Nik, your saw shows X amount of deposits after 12 tanks. 

My 660 shows Y amount of deposits after 6 tanks. 

Y=0

If you extrapolate the data you will see that at 12 tanks Y will still equal zero. 

Some of my *** has hundreds of hours on it, and shows deposits like the examples in Brad's photos. They were run with orange bottle Stihl oil. 

I feel the combo of Amoco Ultimate and Stihl Ultra is the cleanest around. Maybe the 1oz/gal. Klotz helps, maybe it doesn't. 

Whatever the case may be, my results don't lie. 


.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

you results are outstanding, no question


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## indiansprings (Apr 24, 2010)

Based on the accumualtion after on twelve tanks, it would be very concerning it were one of our work saws, during peak season some would prolly get 12 tanks or more run though them in a day. With that amount of build up, some of that crap is going to evetually flake off and start scoring the cylinder of the exhaust side. I'd dang sure want to find a solution before that stated occurring. Twelve tanks of use isn't anything, I wouldn't expect a saw to have any build up of signifigance with only twelve tanks, but then again, I don't tear them down unless they have an issue. Next new saw I buy I may just do it to have a look, I wouldn't be happy with any build up after only twelve tanks.


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## porsche965 (Apr 24, 2010)

indiansprings said:


> Based on the accumualtion after on twelve tanks, it would be very concerning it were one of our work saws, during peak season some would prolly get 12 tanks or more run though them in a day. With that amount of build up, some of that crap is going to evetually flake off and start scoring the cylinder of the exhaust side. I'd dang sure want to find a solution before that stated occurring. Twelve tanks of use isn't anything, I wouldn't expect a saw to have any build up of signifigance with only twelve tanks, but then again, I don't tear them down unless they have an issue. Next new saw I buy I may just do it to have a look, I wouldn't be happy with any build up after only twelve tanks.



I agree and sure would like to see a real world working saw opened up after a dozen or so tanks. 

I have found that using synthetic on a 30 year old Husky and it indeed cleaned up the top of the piston. This saw had a diet of the orange Stihl bottle oil all it's life. Yes the synthetic mix did send material out and score the cylinder on the exhaust side. Visually apparent but once the piston was cleaned back to the original machining marks the scoring lines have fainted and look like they will eventually wear away. Saw makes much better power than before and runs like a new saw IMO. 44cc Saw.

This only took 3 tanks of fuel running wide open in full cuts, bar buried. Mix was Amsoil/Klotz R50 Techniplate. 50/50. 42:1. I contribute the cleaning to the Klotz portion of the mix. 

I since have switched because after talking with a Klotz technician a few weeks ago the R50 Techniplate has too high of a burn temp. for my application and I now use Stihl Ultra with 1/2 ounce of R50 Techniplate for a ratio of 41:1. The top of the pistons are remaining clean so far and the saws make great power. Will stay with this formula for awhile and see how it goes.


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## edisto (Apr 24, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> He took the pics with flash, it created lots of shadowing, and lots of reflection. Yes me Brad and Nik are lying about how everything looked in person. You really think anyone of us care about the results?? I have three different oil sitting on my desk right now that are likely just as good as R50, but after what saw last night I think I'm sticking with R50.



I'm not sure what part of my post that you quoted you have trouble difficulty understanding.

I didn't say any of you were lying, although you might be lying to yourself.

It doesn't matter how Brad took the picture, there is no question that Tzed's cylinder looks fantastic. You can say what you want about how great yours looked, it just doesn't get better than what Tzed showed.

If anyone reading this thread is looking for lubrication advice, or experimenting with oils, I'd be sticking with Tzed's advice.

Same as I would for lubing on assembly.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

only a fool would challenge Tzed's results. I've taken a lot of saws apart. I've had a lot of cylinders shipped to me for machining. His is so rare, I'm astonished with the results. They are NOT typical. Whatever he's doing, he's doing right. Whatever I've been doing, is what I intend to keep doing. The reason for that is the fact that my results are leaps and bounds (albeit, not ahead of Tzed's) ahead of whatever else I've seen.


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## Tzed250 (Apr 24, 2010)

In the end, I think premium fuel, mixed with premium synthetic oil will yield good results. Brad's 440 piston is puzzling...


.


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## FATGUY (Apr 24, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> In the end, I think premium fuel, mixed with premium synthetic oil will yield good results. Brad's 440 piston is puzzling...
> 
> 
> .



agreed


----------



## rms61moparman (Apr 24, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> In the end, I think premium fuel, mixed with premium synthetic oil will yield good results. Brad's 440 piston is puzzling...
> 
> 
> .






I don't think it is that puzzling.
I think the gasoline he is buying is WAY too high of a grade to run in a saw.
Just as most of the people on this site.


Mike


----------



## Tzed250 (Apr 24, 2010)

rms61moparman said:


> I don't think it is that puzzling.
> I think the gasoline he is buying is WAY too high of a grade to run in a saw.
> Just as most of the people on this site.
> 
> ...



My saws run premium unleaded. The octane is not needed, but I believe the detergent package is better.


.


----------



## edisto (Apr 25, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> only a fool would challenge Tzed's results. I've taken a lot of saws apart. I've had a lot of cylinders shipped to me for machining. His is so rare, I'm astonished with the results. They are NOT typical. Whatever he's doing, he's doing right. Whatever I've been doing, is what I intend to keep doing. The reason for that is the fact that my results are leaps and bounds (albeit, not ahead of Tzed's) ahead of whatever else I've seen.



Like they say...your mileage may vary. If your saws are running cleaner on what you are using then they did on Ultra, then why change back?

I just made the switch to the synthetic Bailey's sells (from locally purchased Husky dino), and I'm running it at 40:1 until I get the woods cleared. We'll see how it looks after that.

Wish I cut enough to warrant paying the shipping on the 5 gallon pail they are selling for $90!


----------



## blsnelling (Apr 25, 2010)

edisto said:


> I just made the switch to the synthetic Bailey's sells (from locally purchased Husky dino), and I'm running it at 40:1 until I get the woods cleared. We'll see how it looks after that.



Please do. I'd love to know what you find. I've got a couple cases here myself.


----------



## FATGUY (Apr 25, 2010)

edisto said:


> Like they say...your mileage may vary. If your saws are running cleaner on what you are using then they did on Ultra, then why change back?
> 
> I just made the switch to the synthetic Bailey's sells (from locally purchased Husky dino), and I'm running it at 40:1 until I get the woods cleared. We'll see how it looks after that.
> 
> Wish I cut enough to warrant paying the shipping on the 5 gallon pail they are selling for $90!



I'd be more concerned about a Husky's ability to go through that much mix then I would the shipping charges...:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I'd be more concerned about a Husky's ability to go through that much mix then I would the shipping charges...:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



Now that was just wrong...opcorn:


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## FATGUY (Apr 25, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> Now that was just wrong...opcorn:



LOL, if that was wrong, I don't wanna be right!!!! LOL, NOthing Howl's like a Husky!!!!


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## mowoodchopper (Apr 25, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> I've been running 50:1 Stihl Ultra/93 in all my saws, even the ported ones. 32:1 is just too much oil imo.



I run 36:1 in my saws and dont have carbon build up like that! Super technilplate.


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## edisto (Apr 25, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> LOL, if that was wrong, I don't wanna be right!!!!



In that case, I've got good news for you!

You are right though, you get a lot more trees per gallon from a Husky!

The real issue is the thought of 5-gallons of oil frightens you because you have commitment issues. You can't run the same brand or mix for more than 3 tanks before switching!


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## TheRickster (Apr 25, 2010)

Sorry if it has been posted already but here is some great info concerning oils...

http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/articles/oil_test/index.htm

Rick


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2010)

edisto said:


> The real issue is the thought of 5-gallons of oil frightens you because you have commitment issues. You can't run the same brand or mix for more than 3 tanks before switching!



I'm getting the feeling that nail has been hit squarely on it's head. 

No offense to anyone here, but to old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and the other classic "we don't have to reinvent the wheel" comes to mind.


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## Freehand (Apr 25, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I'd be more concerned about a Husky's ability to go through that much mix then I would the shipping charges...:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I gots a Husky with a couple of million miles on it that begs to differ.......


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 25, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I run 36:1 in my saws and dont have carbon build up like that! Super technilplate.



I could be wrong but that just seems like a lot of earl. I'll keep running the 50:1 or more like 45:1 since I do the .9 gal per bottle deal like mentioned earlier. Since the Ultra well exceeds all the current oil tests, I don't think you can find a better oil.


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 25, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> I'd be more concerned about a Husky's ability to go through that much mix then I would the shipping charges...:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



LOL, now we are getting somewhere in this thread.


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## Spitzer (Apr 25, 2010)

This may be of interest to some of you, i have a Stihl KM130 combi that gets used for grass cutting/trimming, hedge cutting and also a little path clearing with blower attachment.

It's over 1yr old now and usually only sees light use.

Anyway, after the first couple of tanks of mix using regular Stihl hp oil, i made the decision to switch to Amsoil Saber Pro and mix it at 50/1 ratio.

I lost count how many tanks of Amsoil mix it has had, but i would guess about 10 or so tanks mixed with Shell high octane but also some regular octane shell too.

Well, after reading this excellent thread, i decided to remove the plug and take a look at the piston crown with a flashlight, and to my total amazement the piston crown is totally clean of any carbon deposits that i can see.

Looking at it through the spark plug hole, it looks just like a new piston that has never been run. Weird.

The plug is not so clean, with some deposits but nothing out of the ordinary and has a good color.

What baffles me more is that i trimmed the limiter stop on the high speed jet about the middle of last year and backed it out another 1/8th of a turn to make it run a little richer/cooler. After doing this, i always had doubts as to how clean it would stay inside.

I don't know what the valves and seats look like, but fingers crossed, i hope they look like that piston crown.

Edit: Forgot to mention, i don't need to run it at full throttle very often because it does not need full throttle, and also i hate the sound of it bouncing off the rev limiter.


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## Terry Syd (Apr 25, 2010)

*Valves*

Since the piston top looks so good, I don't think you have to be concerned about the 'valve seats'.


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## Miles86 (Apr 26, 2010)

I didn't read the whole thread yet, so sorry if it's already been said, 

I have always used 20:1, I use either Motul 800 or Silkolene Pro2 SX which have calcium sulfonate additive which is a detergent that works on ring belt deposits and is a rust/corrosion inhibitor. BelRay H1R uses an Antimony compound which has similar properties. Elf sport 2 competition is another all ester product with high detergent levels. 

Even with 20:1 I do not get deposits, maybe a little brownish fluff on the piston top. The only annoying aspect is the exhaust is very oily on things like string trimmers that are not under a high load all the time. 

I think the gas itself can cause a lot of deposits, not always the oils fault. 
Try a few months with a leaded gas like Sunoco standard.


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## 7sleeper (Apr 26, 2010)

Miles86 said:


> ..
> I have *always used 20:1*, ....
> Try a few months *with a leaded gas* like Sunoco standard.



WTF!

I can really smell it. If this thread goes on any further we will all be using 8:1 with dino oil pretty soon, and be happy about the zero carbon!

7


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## Miles86 (Apr 26, 2010)

Yes, it does smell good, but not as good as Benol.


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## huskystihl (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey Brad if you read this I had some extra time so pulled my 260 apart knowing for sur it's the only saw I have that has never seen anything but amsoil since new outside of my 200. Most of my other saws have probably seen ultra but anyhow the 260 is modded and no carbon buildup anywhere. Please don't think this is an amsoil plug but my 460 before it got crushed was nothing but stihl oil and was carboned just like the one in your photo. I know you mentioned amsoil as a possability so maybe this helps. For what it's worth there was some buildup on the crown on my 372 which has since cleaned up after switching.


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 27, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> Hey Brad if you read this I had some extra time so pulled my 260 apart knowing for sur it's the only saw I have that has never seen anything but amsoil since new outside of my 200. Most of my other saws have probably seen ultra but anyhow the 260 is modded and no carbon buildup anywhere. Please don't think this is an amsoil plug but my 460 before it got crushed was nothing but stihl oil and was carboned just like the one in your photo. I know you mentioned amsoil as a possability so maybe this helps. For what it's worth there was some buildup on the crown on my 372 which has since cleaned up after switching.



I've swapped a number of used saws over to Amsoil from conventional and have seen the cleanup first-hand. Same thing with two gas-powered ice augers that were carboned up and one outboard. And no, I'm not making this an Amsoil ad either. I don't doubt there are plenty of other synthetics with cleaning characteristics out there.

And, lastly, no, I'm not an oil expert. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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## blsnelling (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks guys. I'm still reading


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## huskystihl (Apr 28, 2010)

I've got a 2 stroke mini tiller that I use for in between the rows in the garden out at the shop. Long story short I have a whole case of the husky white bottle oil that a rep gave me one day so I use it for weed whips and snowmobiling for the kids "No their not nice sleds". Anyhow the muffler vibrated off this thing last year and a quick peak in the jug and the crown looked like I hit it with a blow torch, so I for the heck of it pulled it in and put the muffler on and did a compression test which floored me at 180lbs. The garde we use it in is 30x60 so it runs for about 3hrs at a time all summer so it isn't a once in awhile thing. I wouldn't worry about it unless it causes problems


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## Danger Dan (Apr 28, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm curious as to whether or not this is normal carbon formation on a piston crown. This is the P&C from my new MS440. It has only seen maybe a dozen tanks of fuel. The saw has not been run excessively rich, or lean for that matter. What's odd is the the combustion chamber and exhaust port are both clean. The carbon on the piston crown was extremely hard and very difficult to remove.
> 
> Most of you know that I run Klotz R50 at 32:1. My questions are this. Is this normal? If not, is this the result of running R50? Is it the result of running 32:1? What do the masses think. And please don't just blurt out, oh you're running it too rich. Give me a reason why you think what you do.
> 
> ...


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## Andyshine77 (Apr 28, 2010)

The saw was stock except for a muffler mod, the saw is now ported and running different oil at 32:1. After the saw gets some time on it, Brad's going to inspect it to see how the new oils running.


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 28, 2010)

Cantdog said:


> BCMs answer was to not run premium unleaded or mid range unleaded road gas because of the deposits it leaves behind. Regular unleaded did not do this any where near as much. The techs would laugh when tearing down a motor and say "Oh yeah another Hi-test guy"
> I was not advocating "special" gas for saws. As I said I've changed my thoughts on this subject completely. I used to run all 2 strokes rich on oil because that's the way my father taught me. Now I see over oiling as more of a danger than a help. It is an attempt to "save something to death" How many pistons have you seen with a big ugly score from a carbon chip that broke free and got wedged between tha piston and cyl wall. Carbon buildup is not good for any motor and it will not reach a point and stop building up. Carbon will adhere to itself better than anything else. In a water cooled 2 strokes it will eventually lead to "coking" which is a term used to describe severe carbon formations which will cause your rings to seize, break and you know the rest of scenario. Carbon is the "killer" of 2 strokes. I just thought it interesting that the guys "in the know" who routinely build and race 160 Horsepower, 180 MPH 2 cylinder motors would recommend a lesser grade of gas to help solve the carbon issue.



This is interesting,i had a chat to a stihl dealer saw tuner the other day about blow bye on a couple of my saws.I have always used premium unleaded fuel and Mobile 1 racing 2T at 40:1.He said that's the problem (premium unleaded) the saws are designed to run on 90 oct fuel and that the high energy fuels do more harm than good.


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## robertjinnes (Apr 28, 2010)

*oil sealing rings to increase compression*

In one of your early responses, you indicated running 32:1 to get oil sealing compression increase in the hope of more power. Oil hurts combustion. When I corrected valve stem seal leak by. Fuel to oil ratio went from approx 150:1 to 600:1. I got a 10% increase in fuel economy. Simply better burning of the gas without oil. Same only more severe is occurring with 32:1. Synthetic oils have higher temperature capabilities. In other words, they won't thin out or burn as easily as Dino oil. Drop back to 40:1 or even recommended 50:1 since saws are generically capable of reaching very acceptable total life hours running 50:1 Dino.

GOOD LUCK. REPORT what we all hope successful resolution.


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## blsnelling (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm still not liking what I'm seeing with R50 at 32:1. This is my NE 346XP. It turns north of 16K RPMs and is not babied at all.

As discussed before, once I'm out of R50, I'm going to all K2, still at 32:1. I'm already using it in my 440, and initial indications are that it is burning cleaner.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 8, 2010)

Stihlman441 said:


> This is interesting,i had a chat to a stihl dealer saw tuner the other day about blow bye on a couple of my saws.I have always used premium unleaded fuel and Mobile 1 racing 2T at 40:1.He said that's the problem (premium unleaded) the saws are designed to run on 90 oct fuel and that the high energy fuels do more harm than good.



A dealer here recently told me that Honda are recommending only standard unleaded here in their four strokes, particularly mowers, that 98 PULP is leaving too many deposits ?
The mowers in particular aren't working very hard, and so the deposit formation.


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## robertjinnes (Jul 8, 2010)

*32:1 oil mix*

It appears that the piston head has dry soot while the squish area of the cylinder at the intake side is wet oily. If that is correct as expected the piston is running hotter than the cylinder. Why did you pull it apart? Just your curiosity? If you're into build and teardown, clean the carbon off and run a a few tanks at 40:1 and pull it down again. If it is substantially cleaner- just too much oil @ 32:1. If it is still carboned, especially on the piston head, possibly gas rich. Either way--rich on fuel means extra extra oil or OK adjustment on fuel means just extra oil. Either way means you shouldn't score a cylinder etc. 
We certainly can't expecting a 2 stroke to burn as clean as a 4 stroke. 

Are you hoping to optimize oil VS power output without trashing cylinder and piston? 16K + certainly requires good lubrication.

Good Luck.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 8, 2010)

robertjinnes said:


> In one of your early responses, you indicated running 32:1 to get oil sealing compression increase in the hope of more power. Oil hurts combustion. When I corrected valve stem seal leak by. Fuel to oil ratio went from approx 150:1 to 600:1. I got a 10% increase in fuel economy. Simply better burning of the gas without oil. Same only more severe is occurring with 32:1. Synthetic oils have higher temperature capabilities. In other words, they won't thin out or burn as easily as Dino oil. Drop back to 40:1 or even recommended 50:1 since saws are generically capable of reaching very acceptable total life hours running 50:1 Dino.
> 
> GOOD LUCK. REPORT what we all hope successful resolution.



I know your post is a few months old, but it has been shown time and again that higher oil ratios in a two stroke = more power, the supposition being better ring seal.

Racing air cooled two strokes still mainly use 16-25:1 oil/fuel ratios, even when using 'exotic' oils like Elf HTX909, Castrol XR77, etc.
1. to stop seizing.
2. makes more grunt.


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## tdi-rick (Jul 8, 2010)

robertjinnes said:


> It appears that the piston head has dry soot while the squish area of the cylinder at the intake side is wet oily. If that is correct as expected the piston is running hotter than the cylinder. Why did you pull it apart? Just your curiosity? If you're into build and teardown, clean the carbon off and run a a few tanks at 40:1 and pull it down again. If it is substantially cleaner- just too much oil @ 32:1. If it is still carboned, especially on the piston head, possibly gas rich. Either way--rich on fuel means extra extra oil or OK adjustment on fuel means just extra oil. Either way means you shouldn't score a cylinder etc.
> We certainly can't expecting a 2 stroke to burn as clean as a 4 stroke.
> 
> Are you hoping to optimize oil VS power output without trashing cylinder and piston? 16K + certainly requires good lubrication.
> ...



Yep.

If the skirt looks OK I wouldn't worry too much, the oils main job is to keep things going up and down and round and round smoothly.
Cleaner burning is a bonus, as soon as you modify an engine to pull those sort of revs, stopping seizing is the name of the game. 




Brad, if you like my 7901 will be coming apart soon and it's had a diet of 98RON fuel and Motul 8002T OR @ 40:1.
I'll post the pictures of the piston and chamber in this thread.

I know the boys that are running Maxima 927 are very happy with the results in terms of wear (or the lack of) and it apparently burns very cleanly troo.


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## robertjinnes (Jul 8, 2010)

*good oil info*

TDI, good reasoning on why the extra oil increases power.-- trade off increasing oil can hurt fuel burionging efficiency for a given amount of fuel but we can trade off extra oil and poorer efficiency if we are able to boost the cylinder pressure with better sealing.

Paraphrasing what you said.--- If we can't keep it spinning we aren't making horsepower.

OIL IT- OIL IT- OIL IT


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## blsnelling (Jul 8, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Brad, if you like my 7901 will be coming apart soon and it's had a diet of 98RON fuel and Motul 8002T OR @ 40:1.
> I'll post the pictures of the piston and chamber in this thread.



I'd love to see pics of it.


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## computeruser (Jul 8, 2010)

This is one of the best threads that this site has seen in a while. Sooner or later I'll finish up my inventory of MobilRacing MX2T, so it's nice to see what others are pleased with.


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## wigglesworth (Jul 8, 2010)

computeruser said:


> This is one of the best threads that this site has seen in a while. Sooner or later I'll finish up my inventory of MobilRacing MX2T, so it's nice to see what others are pleased with.



Im in the same boat as you, but im running out FAST!!! In fact, Ill be out by this fall. The motorcross buddy of mine is wanting me to try this....CASTOR 927


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## computeruser (Jul 8, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Im in the same boat as you, but im running out FAST!!! In fact, Ill be out by this fall. The motorcross buddy of mine is wanting me to try this....CASTOR 927



Yeah, my inventory has really dropped since buying a Toro 2-stroke snowblower that I use for our house and three or four neighbors...all corner lots.


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## Tzed250 (Jul 9, 2010)

robertjinnes said:


> In one of your early responses, you indicated running 32:1 to get oil sealing compression increase in the hope of more power. *Oil hurts combustion*. When I corrected valve stem seal leak by. Fuel to oil ratio went from approx 150:1 to 600:1. I got a 10% increase in fuel economy. Simply better burning of the gas without oil. Same only more severe is occurring with 32:1. Synthetic oils have higher temperature capabilities. In other words, they won't thin out or burn as easily as Dino oil. Drop back to 40:1 or even recommended 50:1 since saws are generically capable of reaching very acceptable total life hours running 50:1 Dino.
> 
> GOOD LUCK. REPORT what we all hope successful resolution.





robertjinnes said:


> It appears that the piston head has dry soot while the squish area of the cylinder at the intake side is wet oily. If that is correct as expected the piston is running hotter than the cylinder. Why did you pull it apart? Just your curiosity? If you're into build and teardown, clean the carbon off and run a a few tanks at 40:1 and pull it down again. If it is substantially cleaner- just too much oil @ 32:1. If it is still carboned, especially on the piston head, possibly gas rich. Either way--rich on fuel means extra extra oil or OK adjustment on fuel means just extra oil. Either way means you shouldn't score a cylinder etc.
> We certainly can't expecting a 2 stroke to burn as clean as a 4 stroke.
> 
> Are you hoping to optimize oil VS power output without trashing cylinder and piston? 16K + certainly requires good lubrication.
> ...




Please see the following document:


OIL RATIO


.


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## edisto (Jul 9, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Please see the following document:
> 
> 
> OIL RATIO
> ...



Bell reports similar results...although I think both are dealing with castor beans.


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## mictrik (Sep 21, 2010)

edisto said:


> Bell reports similar results...although I think both are dealing with castor beans.



This article is old (1978) and did use Castor based oil for its test. Oil has come a long way since then and I would love to see similar tests performed on modern synthesized formulations. The issue we have is the myriad of variables that can be applied at any given time. These are fuel in terms of octane, detergency and age. The oil, oil synthesized and otherwise is formulated with many different characteristics; what may be optimal for one application or condition may be deferent in another. Tuning of your engine is another variable which to be optimal must be adjusted for varying atmospheric conditions to include heat, atmospheric pressure (altitude), and humidity. Mix these variables up and you will have to spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to get it perfect. So we opt for for basic maxims like tune a hair rich, mix ratio 50:1, 32:1 etc..., use synthetic oils ester based or PAO, on and on. In the end few of us if any have any scientifically produced data for us to really measure the minor differences between on selection and another. All I can say is what I do and the empirical results that I have.

What I do...
Gasoline:
I try to use Shell Premium (what ever their calling it now) because Shell is the only gasoline retailer meeting the top tier gas spec for detergency in my area. Their premium is supposed to have the most so I use it. Is top tier just a marketing ploy or simply irrelevant; I do not know. However its easy to buy and don't see a downside so i do... Here is a link to the top tier website, I just noticed that Exxon & Mobil have been recently added, great more options... 
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html
Two Stroke Oil:
I use Motul 800 2T Off road. I mix between 40:1 and 64:1 depending on the application and how accurate i feel that day (LOL). This oil is ester based and it has been developed for sustained high RPM. Their road race & Cart versions uses a molecular structures that is meant for higher RPM's 18-24000 so I don't use them in hand held 2-cycle motors. My Chainsaw will see no more than 13,600 perhaps 14000 and other small engines like blowers, trimmers etc... are less. 
The Motul is red, smells nice and is rather viscous compared to other oils I have used (Amsoil Saber, Echo power blend, Redmax, Stihl orange and Ultra. I pay $15.00 for one Liter of Motul 800 and this was cheaper than the Echo oil bought in home depot and the Stihl oil as sold at retail. Perhaps some of you can find 33oz of Stihl oil for less than $15.00, I can not. Motul by its formulation should actually be superior to even the Stihl ultra oil in terms of protection but again this will depend on all of those variables and the environment (RPM, Heat etc...) I use it in. Suffice it to say that an Ester based oil like Motul is more expensive to produce than a PAO like Stihl ultra, maybe I think i am getting a bargain or maybe I just like the smell of the Red Motul... Actually, i am not sure but i like it.
My Results:
Well I have 3-6 years of personal use on various hand held machinery to include, Shinny EB802 Blower, trimmers, trimmer FS90 and HS45, Echo SRM-230, and Chainsaws Stihl MS360 Pro, Echo CS-3000, & Poulan 3700.
All of these units run smoother and cleaner with the Motul 800. The blower however prefers it at 64:1 ratio as i used to see a little spooge at 50:1 or more oil. The Stihl units plus the Echo trimmer I bought from a landscaper two years ago. I cleaned them up when i got them and inspected the P&C as best I could from the muffler port and spark plug. Lets just say Carbon abound! The worst specimen being the Stihl 4-mix trimmer whose exhaust valve and port was caked with carbon. I cleaned off the carbon manually where i could, cleaned & painted if necessary all of the mufflers, I bought and used Stihl de-carbonizer (especially for the 4-mix), installed new plugs and filled the gas tanks with fresh Shell 93 and Motul 800 at 50:1. I then used all of the equipment. I mixed a gallon with some Techron additive for the 4-mix and that definitely helped upon inspection as the valves turned to on a brownish red color. After many tank full through all of the machines with mix ratios of 50:1 to around 70:1 I finally inspected them the other day. They are ALL very CLEAN. I wish I had before and after pictures because I am very surprised (pleasantly) myself! i was actually wondering if there would be more deposits to clean. The 4mix valves look like I swapped them for new ones. The MS 360 piston looks brand new but to be honest it and the HS45 hedge trimmer were very clean when i got it, so no miracles there but no buildup either and they do seem a little cleaner. 
With regard to wondering if these machines are being properly lubricated since I have not pulled them apart (and don't want to) all I can say is this. I was introduced to Motul when I was in Germany years ago. A co-worker was a cart racer and I saw a cart engine get pulled a part that used this oil. All of the moving parts were thoroughly coated in red oil. He said that Motul 800 had always yielded the best results for him and that most cart racers used it. these machines turn RPM's that double your average chainsaw and this is why I looked for it in the USA. The Echo CS-3000 was weened on Echo oil but it has been fed a diet of Motul since 2004 and now looks cleaner than before. All clean and knock wood no failures. Mind you I am not a commercial user but some of my equipment was used commercially before I had it and they are all running better than when I acquired them.

Motul 800 Specs:

Recommendations
Mixing ratio : MOTO CROSS GRAND PRIX : 2% (50:1). In normal conditions decrease the percentage by 0.5%. Tune according to your own use.

PROPERTIES
Red coloured.
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.911
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 120.2 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 15.5 mm²/s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 135
Flash point ASTM D92 252°C / 485°F

My conclusion:
From my experience Motul + Shell 93 has worked extremely well. I haven't used any additives like Techron since the first and only time I used it nearly two years ago. All of the internals seem to be clean on my 4-mix trimmer and that is saying allot. This machine was a mess when I first inspected it and it was not that old, so whatever they were fueling it with before me was like a petroleum equivalent to an artery clogging six eggs, sausages and the works breakfast from Denny's. Again, i wish I had pictures as the contrast is astonishing. So i am staying with Motul and Shell 93 from well frequented gas stations. I only mix what i use and i often add Stabil to the mix in case i don't run the machine for a while. I hope this was helpful...


Some off topic info as to why we are seeing a push away from two cycle engines.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/...es-the-250cc-four-stroke-moto3-class-in-2012/


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 22, 2010)

You guys a fried, just use the oil you trust at the ratio you trust. Analyzing

carbon around a piston crown is, like when you were teenagers with your first

girlfriend, its fun to talk about and act like you know what your seeing, but

the truth of the matter is you didnt know what you were looking at if you did catch her! And sure as heck didnt know what to do about it! LMAO


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2010)

I've been running K2 since this, and it does burn cleaner. Andyshine77 is reporting the same.


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## Tzed250 (Sep 22, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> You guys a fried, just use the oil you trust at the ratio you trust. Analyzing
> 
> carbon around a piston crown is, like when you were teenagers with your first
> 
> ...





.
Prove it...




.


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 22, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> Prove it...
> 
> 
> ...



no need there are 200 post to do that!

:monkey: I love to stir the pot!


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## Tzed250 (Sep 22, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> no need there are 200 post to do that!
> 
> :monkey: I love to stir the pot!



Since you admit you add nothing of value we will disregard all past and future posts as a waste of bandwidth. Those that stir the pot often have no idea why the pot exists in the first place, or even how it got there.


.


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 22, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> Since you admit you add nothing of value we will disregard all past and future posts as a waste of bandwidth. Those that stir the pot often have no idea why the pot exists in the first place, or even how it got there.
> 
> 
> .



I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I 
I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!


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## edisto (Sep 22, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I
> I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!



Running saws doesn't teach you how to read pistons.

More importantly, not knowing how to read something does not mean it isn't worth reading. If you're not into pistons, maybe you could try books?


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 22, 2010)

edisto said:


> Running saws doesn't teach you how to read pistons.
> 
> More importantly, not knowing how to read something does not mean it isn't worth reading. If you're not into pistons, maybe you could try books?



I do like Books !


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## Tzed250 (Sep 23, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I didnt say I added nothing of value, I said I like to stir the pot, especially with guys like you that its so easy to get under their skin! LOL As for you guys analyzing your carbon build up thread, I know how it got there, do I
> I still think mostly its a bunch of idiot blow hards that never run a saw as much as their mouth? YES is your answer! If you worked as hard as you talked you wouldnt have time to worry about your carbon build up!:monkey: Maybe next you can analyze your bars for sap build up! Oh you would have to use your saw first, to bad!





You are the one that is all defrosted here, not me. 

You disparage the thread without adding a pro or con to the discussion. 

You have no idea how hard I work or have worked. If you are posting to this thread we can assume that you are not running a saw. Your blow-hard status is equal to all others engaged in this thread. 

You present yourself as a person intimidated by technical discussion. If this is the case then it may be best for you to steer clear of threads of this nature, or educate yourself sufficiently to be able to join the debate. 


I can promise you one thing. The saws you run had plenty of piston crown carbon analysis done while they were being engineered. 


Nothing says that the analysis must stop at the R&D department. 


.


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 23, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> You are the one that is all defrosted here, not me.
> 
> You disparage the thread without adding a pro or con to the discussion.
> 
> ...



Trust me you dont intimidate me ! LMAO


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## Cerran (Sep 23, 2010)

Brad have you pulled any more saws apart since you switched to new oil? I'm curious as to what you found with the changes you've been making.


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## Cerran (Sep 23, 2010)

Stihlman441 said:


> This is interesting,i had a chat to a stihl dealer saw tuner the other day about blow bye on a couple of my saws.I have always used premium unleaded fuel and Mobile 1 racing 2T at 40:1.He said that's the problem (premium unleaded) the saws are designed to run on 90 oct fuel and that the high energy fuels do more harm than good.



Your dealer needs to do a little more research on fuel. Higher octane fuel isn't really higher energy, just has a better anti-knock package added in most cases. Generally speaking higher octane fuel has the same energy content, but is more stable at higher cylinder pressures and won't pre-ignite as readily. This allows for higher cylinder pressures and more power per unit displacement on higher performance engines.


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## Tzed250 (Sep 23, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> Trust me you dont intimidate me ! LMAO



Never meant to. Laugh on, clown...


.


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 23, 2010)

Cerran said:


> Your dealer needs to do a little more research on fuel. Higher octane fuel isn't really higher energy, just has a better anti-knock package added in most cases. Generally speaking higher octane fuel has the same energy content, but is more stable at higher cylinder pressures and won't pre-ignite as readily. This allows for higher cylinder pressures and more power per unit displacement on higher performance engines.



Ok then use what ya wont i dont care.i will use what i wont and then it is all good.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2010)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ok then use what ya wont i dont care.i will use what i wont and then it is all good.



Well, I have no opinion on your dealer. Ain't going there. 

He is spot on about the octane rating. I drag raced for many years and spent considerable time learning about fuels. The higher the octane rating the more resistance the fuel has to being ignited, this allows higher cylinder pressures without preignition, which in turn leads to more horsepower.

How this applies in a two-stroke engine is beyond my pay grade at this point.


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## 1steve (Sep 23, 2010)

premium fuel is recommended because when oil mix is added you lower your octane rating about 2 points


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## parrisw (Sep 24, 2010)

LOL you guys. Don't make me send you to the corner. 

Carbon gets there from burning fuel! LOL Case closed. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be.


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## Miles86 (Sep 24, 2010)

I still think a lot of the deposits come from the gasoline, not just the oil. Here is a good article I am copying here I believe from the Rockett Fuels website:
(The old Union 76 fuels before ConcocoPhillips)

Myths - Leaded Racing Gasoline 

Pg. 1 of 2 

1. Myth: The higher the octane, the slower the burn. 
Fact: In many cases, high octane gasoline has faster burning characteristics than low 
octane gasoline. It is rarely slower. 

2. 
Myth: Too much octane reduces horsepower. 
Fact: 
Trying a higher octane fuel and getting less performance is usually due to introducing 
additional variables with the different gasoline which can be overcome by re-tuning the 
engine. 

3. 
Myth: Too much octane will burn up my engine. 
Fact: 
The only time your engine is aware of octane is when it doesn’t have enough. Using a higher 
octane than the engine needs does not hurt or help. 

4. 
Myth: More Tetraethyl Lead is better. 
Fact: 
Tetraethyl Lead (TEL) increases the octane number of the gasoline. It reduces spark plug 
life, contaminates crankcase oil, and reduces exhaust system life. More is not better. 

5. 
Myth: Leaded gasoline makes more horsepower than unleaded 
Fact: 
Leaded gasoline is legal for “ sanctioned off-highway events only” and does not allow the 
engine to make more power unless detonation is present. More power can be made with a 
street legal oxygenated unleaded gasoline than with leaded gasoline as long as there is no 
detonation. 

6. Myth: Adding nitromethane to gasoline improves power. 
Fact: Nitro knocks the octane number down severely, and makes the mixture way too lean. Jeff 
Smith, formerly of Hot Rod Magazine, tried this a few years back and destroyed an engine 
before he got the A/F ratio correct. 

7. 
Myth: Propylene oxide is great stuff. 
Fact: 
It can be after you find out that it eats soft parts in the fuel system, needs to run richer, needs 
to be stored in a cool place, evaporates easily, and can be a disappointment with improper 
tuning. 

8. 
Myth: Aviation Gasoline is a good substitute for racing gasoline. 
Fact: 
Aviation Gasoline is designed for engines that run at 2700 to 2800 RPM. If your race engine 
runs at this speed, aviation gasoline is the hot tip. 

Wusz 08/13/04 


Pg. 2 of 2 

9. Myth: I can improve the racing gasoline by adding a little of this or a little of that. 
Fact: We put a lot of scientific effort into making high quality racing gasoline. Being a 
backyark blender can be hazardous to your health and to your car’s performance. 
Don’t do it. 

10. Myth: I can save money by mixing street gasoline with racing gasoline. 
Fact: Race engines and performance street engines are built for max performance. You will 
make more power with racing gas, especially if you use Rockett Brand TM 100 
Unleaded Racing Gasoline in a street engine. 

11. Myth: Octane number is power. 
Fact: Octane number is resistance to detonation. Higher octane will increase power only if 
detonation is present. 

12. 
Myth: The octane requirement of my engine is always the same. 
Fact: 
Operating conditions like air temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, and coolant 
temperature have an impact on engine octane requirement. 

13. 
Myth: Detonation and Pre-ignition are the same. 
Fact: Detonation can hurt your engine; Pre-ignition will destroy it. 
14. 
Myth: I want a slow burning gasoline for my race engine. 
Fact: 
Slow burning gasolines are not conductive to making maximum power. There is not 
much time for combustion to take place at 6,000 to 10,000 RPM. Fast burn is best. 

15. 
Myth: All racing gasolines are the same. 
Fact: 
There are a variety of ways to make racing gasoline, depending on what type of 
blending stocks are used. Some are better than others. All gasolines are not created 
equal. 

16. 
Myth: Storing racing gasoline in plastic jugs is fine. 
Fact: 
Gasoline is best stored in sealed metal containers. Dark plastic jugs are acceptable, 
but light colored plastic jugs allow gasoline color changes and tetraethyl Lead (TEL) 
deterioration. The plastic caps can create sealing problems. Use a metal container 
with a good sealing screw cap and be sure of what you have. 

17. 
Myth: To see if one racing gasoline is better than another, just pour it in and run it. 
Fact: 
A different gasoline has to be part of the tune-up; just like spark timing, carb jetting, 
camshaft, valve lash, etc. Don’t over-simplify it. See #15 above. 

For Your Nearest Rockett Brand TM Distributor, call or click: 
1-800-345-0076 / www.rockettbrand.com 

© 2008 Paragon Performance Products, Glenview IL 60026


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## Cerran (Sep 24, 2010)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ok then use what ya wont i dont care.i will use what i wont and then it is all good.



I'm not saying there aren't reasons on smaller engines to not use premium, just that your dealer likely has the wrong reason in this case. My best educated guess is that in lower compression engines like small lawnmowers and such the extra additive package can cause gumming because the cylinder temperatures do not get hot enough to completely burn off the additives.

As a combustion engineer I've done limited work on IC engines, most of my work is on boilers and turbines but the combustion principles do not change.


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## MathuisMaximus (Sep 26, 2010)

All current saw manufactures say 50:1, especially running synthetic, your not milling, so why?? 

I agree with TRI955's statement.


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## mowoodchopper (Sep 26, 2010)

parrisw said:


> LOL you guys. Don't make me send you to the corner.
> 
> Carbon gets there from burning fuel! LOL Case closed. Don't make it more complicated then it has to be.



 Right on!


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## MathuisMaximus (Sep 26, 2010)

Does anyone here know anything about Lucas semi synthetic oil, or have any thoughts about it? How does it compare to the other premium oils. I have not seen it mentioned in this thread and I am curious as to what others think about it.


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## edisto (Sep 26, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Carbon gets there from burning fuel!



And your words pop up on my screen because you touched your keyboard.

Both are true statements, and both have no value in terms of describing the actual processes involved.


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## parrisw (Sep 26, 2010)

I was trying to make light of the situation, since they were bickering like a bunch of women. Fact is, even if there was no oil in there, you'd still get carbon build up.


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## edisto (Sep 26, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I was trying to make light of the situation, since they were bickering like a bunch of women. Fact is, even if there was no oil in there, you'd still get carbon build up.



I know you were...but subtlety is lost on some.


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## Mastermind (Sep 26, 2010)

edisto said:


> I know you were...but subtlety is lost on some.



But what do you mean? :spam:


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## parrisw (Sep 26, 2010)

edisto said:


> I know you were...but subtlety is lost on some.



Ya for sure!


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## Hddnis (Sep 26, 2010)

I just thought I'd mention that after med studies I was able to name and describe the function of the bits and pieces. Women really like that and seem to function better if you understand them better.


Saws are like that too.






Mr. HE


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## Mastermind (Sep 26, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> I just thought I'd mention that after med studies I was able to name and describe the function of the bits and pieces. Women really like that and seem to function better if you understand them better.
> 
> 
> Saws are like that too.
> ...


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## Andyshine77 (Sep 26, 2010)

MathuisMaximus said:


> Does anyone here know anything about Lucas semi synthetic oil, or have any thoughts about it? How does it compare to the other premium oils. I have not seen it mentioned in this thread and I am curious as to what others think about it.



I've been told by a respected saw tech and friend that it's good oil. From what's he's seen so far, he plans to start running it after his stock of Mobil 2T runs out.


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## edisto (Sep 26, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> But what do you mean? :spam:



Now that is comedy!



Hddnis said:


> I just thought I'd mention that after med studies I was able to name and describe the function of the bits and pieces. Women really like that and seem to function better if you understand them better.



That explains a lot! I don't understand the first thing about women...no wonder I can't get them to work.


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## BobL (Sep 26, 2010)

234 posts and I think only one poster mentioned the additives. All modern 2 stroke lubes are loaded with metal based soaps and smoke suppressants. So it would not surprise me if what looks like carbon deposits also contains calcium from the soaps. 

The quickest way to check this would be to stick a small chip under an electron microscope and perform micro X-ray analysis. The Ca and other metals will stick out like dog privates. If you can't get anyone to do this you can send it to me.


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## MathuisMaximus (Sep 26, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I've been told by a respected saw tech and friend that it's good oil. From what's he's seen so far, he plans to start running it after his stock of Mobil 2T runs out.



Thanks for the information. This is the oil I am currently using mixed at 50:1 with no problems. I would pull the cylinder to look and see if there was any significant carbon buildup but I can't justify pulling the cylinder unless it needs to be done.


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## Mastermind (Sep 26, 2010)

BobL said:


> 234 posts and I think only one poster mentioned the additives. All modern 2 stroke lubes are loaded with metal based soaps and smoke suppressants. So it would not surprise me if what looks like carbon deposits also contains calcium from the soaps.
> 
> The quickest way to check this would be to stick a small chip under an electron microscope and perform micro X-ray analysis. The Ca and other metals will stick out like dog privates. If you can't get anyone to do this you can send it to me.



Great post Bob.


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## Andyshine77 (Sep 27, 2010)

BobL said:


> 234 posts and I think only one poster mentioned the additives. All modern 2 stroke lubes are loaded with metal based soaps and smoke suppressants. So it would not surprise me if what looks like carbon deposits also contains calcium from the soaps.
> 
> The quickest way to check this would be to stick a small chip under an electron microscope and perform micro X-ray analysis. The Ca and other metals will stick out like dog privates. If you can't get anyone to do this you can send it to me.



Bob the reason no one said much is because this is simply another oil thread. I posted this some time ago, but If you guys want to really learn something about oil have a look.  

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/653774


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## edisto (Sep 27, 2010)

BobL said:


> 234 posts and I think only one poster mentioned the additives. All modern 2 stroke lubes are loaded with metal based soaps and smoke suppressants. So it would not surprise me if what looks like carbon deposits also contains calcium from the soaps.
> 
> The quickest way to check this would be to stick a small chip under an electron microscope and perform micro X-ray analysis. The Ca and other metals will stick out like dog privates. If you can't get anyone to do this you can send it to me.



I don't think the additives were overlooked Bob, just implicit. You can't change the mix ratio for a given oil without changing the additive concentrations. That's the real issue with deviating from the manufacturer's recommendation for mix ratios...you run the risk of having way too much (or too little) of the additive package.

It is possible that certain durations or combustion chamber shapes might produce different burn profiles that would favor deposition of one additive over another, such that a given saw might "like" one oil better than another, but I don't think the issue is as fine-grained as that. Whatever the source of the deposition, too much is still too much.


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## BobL (Sep 28, 2010)

edisto said:


> I don't think the additives were overlooked Bob, just implicit. You can't change the mix ratio for a given oil without changing the additive concentrations. That's the real issue with deviating from the manufacturer's recommendation for mix ratios...you run the risk of having way too much (or too little) of the additive package.



I'm not convinced the manufacturers know what's going. Stihl's recommendation is still the daft . . . "50:1 when using Stihl Lube and 25:1 for everyone else". Or maybe there's another agenda - now that does turn it onto oil thread.


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## edisto (Sep 28, 2010)

BobL said:


> I'm not convinced the manufacturers know what's going. Stihl's recommendation is still the daft . . . "50:1 when using Stihl Lube and 25:1 for everyone else". Or maybe there's another agenda - now that does turn it onto oil thread.



I was actually referring to the oil manufacturer, not the saw manufacturer...but Stihl does have their name on both!

That's what makes me uncomfortable about Amsoil. It might be good oil, but when they say you can run it at 100:1 but probably should use 50:1, it doesn't seem like they are basing it on the additive package.

Oops...I said Amsoil. Now it REALLY is an oil thread.


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## timberwolf (Sep 28, 2010)

50:1 with stihl oil and 25:1 could be marketing or it could be a catch all to cover people running real crappy oil. Maybe a little of both. Certainly stihl would not want to get into saying 25:1 with these brands but 50:1 with these others is ok, nor would they want to get into doing all that testing on dozens of other brands of oil to back that up. To make it simple they test and waranty their saws based on 50:1 stihl oil and 25:1 for other brands of 2 stroke mix, works for the marketing dept too.


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