# Mastermind Meets The Stihl MS440/460 Hybrid



## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

This saw has been around the world, and is not done traveling yet. It came here from New York, and will be leaving here for Washington State. When it got here it was a new unfueled saw with the Gilardoni cylinder. I replaced that with a very nice Mahle 046 D-shaped cylinder and a new Meteor piston kit.

Here's some pics.....


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## Tzed250 (Apr 12, 2012)

This should be good!!


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## wigglesworth (Apr 12, 2012)

Behold, the king of all saws....


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## Adirondackstihl (Apr 12, 2012)

Instant woody!


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

The Gilardoni cylinder.....


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Behold, the king of all saws....



Thanks for hooking us up with the 046 cylinder for this build J.


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## wigglesworth (Apr 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Thanks for hooking us up with the 046 cylinder for this build J.



'twas muh last one. 

Ah well, there's more out there....somewhere. :dunno:


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

The Mahle 046 cylinder.






In pretty good shape for a jug that's over twenty years old ain't it? 






A little rough there.......we'll straighten that out.






This should give you an idea how much the bolt holes need elongated. 






Boy these Meteor piston are purty.






These next two pics show the rough in process of the exhaust port.






Notice the card stock? I use it to gauge my height. The pencil line is for width.






Rough in on the transfers. Notice the cut squish band?


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## DB43725 (Apr 12, 2012)

*Gilardoni cylinder*

Are those Gilardoni cylinder and pistons not very well built ?


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 12, 2012)

Ha there Randy
Can you please explain the advantages of going hybrid ?.

Thanks


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Roughing in the intake.






It's not hard to cut through on the 046/460 because of the offset of the port. 






That's plenty big enough to get the fuel in.






All done, cleaned up and ready to go back together.











I really like this sealant. It's Loctite 515, it doesn't harden unless it's in an area that's less than .030. That way whatever squeezes inside the engine washes out. It's also easy to clean up on the exterior. 






Have to do a bit of clearance work.....especially if you drop the jug.


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

DB43725 said:


> Are those Gilardoni cylinder and pistons not very well built ?



Oh no I'm not implying that the Gilardoni cylinders aren't high quality. They are among the best I'm seen. 



Stihlman441 said:


> Ha there Randy
> Can you please explain the advantages of going hybrid ?.
> 
> Thanks



Welp.......there ain't no replacement for displacement.

The 440 is a lighter, nimbler saw than the 460........it's nice to have the added power in the smaller package.


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

I pulled the flywheel and trimed a bit from the key to advance the ignition timing a bit. It wakes these puppies up nicely. 






Spacers have to be placed here when the 460 top end is installed.


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## Officer's Match (Apr 12, 2012)

I bet you could pay for that whole saw with test flights.


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Tuned to 14,400 in hard ass white oak. Biggest wood on the place right now. 

[video=youtube;uQ75NOCIs-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ75NOCIs-c&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks Randy
Sounds good to me.:msp_biggrin:


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## Officer's Match (Apr 12, 2012)

Sounds nasty, and still fresh to boot. Dang I'd love to run that in 10 tanks or so.


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## Tzed250 (Apr 12, 2012)

Nice work!!


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Officer's Match said:


> Sounds nasty, and still fresh to boot. Dang I'd love to run that in 10 tanks or so.



I can hook up that 460 in your sig. The 1128 series is one of my favorite saws to build. :msp_sneaky:


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## Raganr (Apr 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Oh no I'm not implying that the Gilardoni cylinders are high quality. They are among the best I'm seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just looked in my Stihl catalog and it lists a 12 oz weight difference between the saws. Is the weight savings the only reason to go this route over a 460?

Either way, cool thread and pictures


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## Officer's Match (Apr 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I can hook up that 460 in your sig. The 1128 series is one of my favorite saws to build. :msp_sneaky:



Poor little bugger is awefully stock...


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Raganr said:


> I just looked in my Stihl catalog and it lists a 12 oz weight difference between the saws. Is the weight savings the only reason to go this route over a 460?
> 
> Either way, cool thread and pictures



The reason I did it was because that's what the owner wanted. :msp_biggrin:


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Officer's Match said:


> Poor little bugger is awefully stock...



How can you stand it?


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## young (Apr 12, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> Ha there Randy
> Can you please explain the advantages of going hybrid ?.
> 
> Thanks



factory big bore. cant beat oem parts.




Mastermind said:


>




no base gasket?


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## Officer's Match (Apr 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> How can you stand it?



Intensive M-Tronic therapy.


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## young (Apr 12, 2012)

Raganr said:


> I just looked in my Stihl catalog and it lists a 12 oz weight difference between the saws. Is the weight savings the only reason to go this route over a 460?
> 
> Either way, cool thread and pictures



looks like you never ran 44/46 hybrid. stock or ported they are one of the best.


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## Mastermind (Apr 12, 2012)

young said:


> factory big bore. cant beat oem parts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope. I hate the damn things. :msp_wink:


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## gcdible1 (Apr 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Tuned to 14,400 in hard ass white oak. Biggest wood on the place right now.
> 
> [video=youtube;uQ75NOCIs-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ75NOCIs-c&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]



Uh, I see plenty of wood in the background Randy! Not that you may wanna part with any trees. Haha.:msp_biggrin:

Yeah...I want one of 'dem 'dere saws too! Looking good!


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## unatool (Apr 12, 2012)

*That is a "Climbing Saw" around here*



Mastermind said:


> The reason I did it was because that's what the owner wanted. :msp_biggrin:



Yes, and it looks priceless. Thanks Randy.
It will look even better with the 3/4 wrap and 30" Sugihara bar.

Look better yet about 60 or 80 feet up a Fir tree cutting firewood... look out below!


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## Raganr (Apr 13, 2012)

young said:


> looks like you never ran 44/46 hybrid. stock or ported they are one of the best.




Correct. Hoping to get my hands on a ported 460 in the next day or so though :msp_biggrin: 

The 44/46 hybrids do get a lot of praise and I am just trying to understand why so I can keep an eye out for a 440. I don't know all of the numbers but the price difference isnt much between the saws (new). I completely understand doing this on a used saw that need a rebuild but if looking to buy a new saw, it seems a 460 is the popular choice.

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/193528.htm




Mastermind said:


> The reason I did it was because that's what the owner wanted. :msp_biggrin:



Fair enough


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## Stihlofadeal64 (Apr 13, 2012)

Great work man! That is a man-saw! The porting work brought it to life, or was it the ported jeans the operator wears on the test cuts!? :hmm3grin2orange:


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## shwinecat (Apr 13, 2012)

Sounds really strong Randy. Great work.


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## gcdible1 (Apr 13, 2012)

Stihlofadeal64 said:


> Great work man! That is a man-saw! The porting work brought it to life, or was it the ported jeans the operator wears on the test cuts!? :hmm3grin2orange:



If thats the case from now on I am going to stick with the ported jeans when I go cut!!! Most of my cutting jeans are ported.:msp_wink:


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## woodgrenade (Apr 13, 2012)

Hey Randy, I really like your style for posting your builds. Any chance you can make a vid next time showing how you go about the actual grinding for the porting itself? Keep up the awesome threads, definitely fun to follow!


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## Jacob J. (Apr 13, 2012)

Raganr said:


> Correct. Hoping to get my hands on a ported 460 in the next day or so though :msp_biggrin:
> 
> The 44/46 hybrids do get a lot of praise and I am just trying to understand why so I can keep an eye out for a 440. I don't know all of the numbers but the price difference isnt much between the saws (new). I completely understand doing this on a used saw that need a rebuild but if looking to buy a new saw, it seems a 460 is the popular choice.



The hybrid is a good saw but still doesn't have the torque of an 046 or 460. I built one of these almost ten years ago and it was a good running saw. I ran it for a while 
in the woods cutting logs and then sold it to a member here. It was great in the smaller wood but wouldn't keep up with my 460 when using a longer bar. Porting helps
but doesn't completely solve the issue. 

Nice work Randy...


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 13, 2012)

Officer's Match said:


> Intensive M-Tronic therapy.



That MTronic therapy will fix anything.:msp_biggrin:


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## fastLeo151 (Apr 13, 2012)

Any 460 deserves to be sent to Randy to be reborn. My 460 is bad to the bone


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## Officer's Match (Apr 13, 2012)

fastLeo151 said:


> Any 460 deserves to be sent to Randy to be reborn. My 460 is bad to the bone



Alright, stoppit guys - I really wasn't planning on keeping that 460 and now port-CAD is setting in.


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## Scooterbum (Apr 13, 2012)

Looks good Randy, as always really enjoy your threads.
Any chance of an A-B comparison with a stock 046/460?


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## ptjeep (Apr 13, 2012)

That's just sexy


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## Work Saw Collector (Apr 13, 2012)

Scooterbum said:


> Looks good Randy, as always really enjoy your threads.
> Any chance of an A-B comparison with a stock 046/460?



What he said and how does it compair to the MS460 you built for the buildoff?


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## blsnelling (Apr 13, 2012)

Officer's Match said:


> Alright, stoppit guys - I really wasn't planning on keeping that 460 and now port-CAD is setting in.



Don't try to fight it. Your 460 can be stronger than your 441C!!

Randy, it's about time you built a winner Seriously, this is my favorite saw of all. They are phenomenal. I notice no lack of torque on mine.


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 13, 2012)

Speed is fine cutting cookys but if you use a saw for a living i would pick the 441C everytime.:msp_smile:


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## unatool (Apr 13, 2012)

Speed and power in a light, balanced package is getting things done at my work.
And we are not cutting firewood for a living. More like MT Everest where every pound that can be shaved is worth a lot. Then, when things get hairy (while working ON trees) the saw has the trigger to pull on - that mastermind built into the thing


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## showrguy (Apr 13, 2012)

once again, nice build/thread randy....
i sure hope you get some bigger testing wood in the near future though-----------hint, hint. hehehehe


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## StihlyinEly (Apr 13, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> The hybrid is a good saw but still doesn't have the torque of an 046 or 460. I built one of these almost ten years ago and it was a good running saw. I ran it for a while in the woods cutting logs and then sold it to a member here. It was great in the smaller wood but wouldn't keep up with my 460 when using a longer bar. Porting helps but doesn't completely solve the issue.
> 
> Nice work Randy...



Sweet build and, as always, great pics and explanations.

JJ, that's interesting. Big difference between them, or one of those minor details that only pros would notice? And was your ported hybrid compared against a stock or ported 460? Also, would differences in porting/building style bring the hybrid closer in torque to the 460?


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

unatool said:


> Yes, and it looks priceless. Thanks Randy.
> It will look even better with the 3/4 wrap and 30" Sugihara bar.
> 
> Look better yet about 60 or 80 feet up a Fir tree cutting firewood... look out below!



Here's your pic Steven.







If I remember right that's a 359 Husky that I massaged you blocked down that with......right?




woodgrenade said:


> Hey Randy, I really like your style for posting your builds. *Any chance you can make a vid next time showing how you go about the actual grinding for the porting itself?* Keep up the awesome threads, definitely fun to follow!



I'm just not much on video stuff. The 1 minute and less video is my thing. 



Jacob J. said:


> The hybrid is a good saw but still doesn't have the torque of an 046 or 460. I built one of these almost ten years ago and it was a good running saw. I ran it for a while in the woods cutting logs and then sold it to a member here. It was great in the smaller wood but wouldn't keep up with my 460 when using a longer bar. Porting helps
> but doesn't completely solve the issue.
> 
> Nice work Randy...



I'm thinking that by increasing blowdown the issue is lessened..........

Just something I'm exploring, but this engine has the transfers 2 degrees lower than stock.



Scooterbum said:


> Looks good Randy, as always really enjoy your threads.
> Any chance of an A-B comparison with a stock 046/460?



I don't have a stock 046/460. :msp_sneaky:



Work Saw Collector said:


> What he said and how does it compair to the MS460 you built for the buildoff?



I don't really have any wood that's large enough to do a meaningful compro.


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## Officer's Match (Apr 13, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Don't try to fight it. Your 460 can be stronger than your 441C!!
> 
> Randy, it's about time you built a winner Seriously, this is my favorite saw of all. They are phenomenal. I notice no lack of torque on mine.



Oh you guys are just ruthless. 

:bang:


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

StihlyinEly said:


> Sweet build and, as always, great pics and explanations.
> 
> JJ, that's interesting. Big difference between them, or one of those minor details that only pros would notice? And was your ported hybrid compared against a stock or ported 460? Also, would differences in porting/building style bring the hybrid closer in torque to the 460?



This saw has 185psi and that should climb to around 195 as it breaks in. Also is the timing numbers to consider. I did I've dialed in that aspect.....


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

unatool said:


> Speed and power in a light, balanced package is getting things done at my work.
> And we are not cutting firewood for a living. More like MT Everest where every pound that can be shaved is worth a lot. Then, when things get hairy (while working ON trees) the saw has the trigger to pull on - that mastermind built into the thing



I think you're gonna like it. 



showrguy said:


> once again, nice build/thread randy....
> i sure hope you get some bigger testing wood in the near future though-----------hint, hint. hehehehe



I'll have to Chuck. Your 880 will sure need that to shine. :msp_sneaky:


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## Jacob J. (Apr 13, 2012)

StihlyinEly said:


> Sweet build and, as always, great pics and explanations.
> 
> JJ, that's interesting. Big difference between them, or one of those minor details that only pros would notice? And was your ported hybrid compared against a stock or ported 460? Also, would differences in porting/building style bring the hybrid closer in torque to the 460?



I talked to several experienced builders about it, including Timberwolf, and Brian's thought (which I agree with) is that the crankcase on the 046/460 has a larger mixing
area which helps with overall volume and gives the 046/460 that slight toque edge. He had cc'ed the cases before and there was considerably more volume in the 046/460 case. 
When I first did mine, I compared my hybrid saw to a new stock 460 side by side and then ported both using the same numbers and ran them side by side. The results 
were the same in both cases with the edge going to 460. Again though this is a great set-up for someone (such as a climber) wanting to save the weight and still have a
better power band than a 440 or 044. 



Mastermind said:


> I'm thinking that by increasing blowdown the issue is lessened..........
> 
> Just something I'm exploring, but this engine has the transfers 2 degrees lower than stock.



I agree with that, especially with the Stihl-made jugs.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 13, 2012)

just sent mine to randy for the same treatment last wed ,gonna be a hybrid assembly line on his bench


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## ncfarmboy (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks Randy for taking the time to show/teach us how to. Follow all of your builds with anticipation. 
Shep


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## unatool (Apr 13, 2012)

Randy - thanks for uploading my pic. I will learn how to soon...

Yes, that tree was limbed and topped with a Snelling 201T, blocked down with a 20" bar 359 husky, then the 28" MS 440 to finish it off. Had to cut the bottom 10 feet with my 395... that sucks to hang off my climbing harness!

Now I can look forward to driving my new 'Hybrid' 
Steven


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## woodgrenade (Apr 13, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm just not much on video stuff. The 1 minute and less video is my thing.



1 minute or less is fine with me! I'm just looking for a basic idea of how you rough in the intake and exhaust, nothing fancy.


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

woodgrenade said:


> 1 minute or less is fine with me! I'm just looking for a basic idea of how you rough in the intake and exhaust, nothing fancy.



I've heard some guys say they can port a saw in an hour or so. I just wish I could. I probably had 12 hours in this saw. A one minute video wouldn't amount to much.


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## Jed1124 (Apr 13, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Nope. I hate the damn things. :msp_wink:



Just curios. I remember back when our old friend HBNR took the base gasket out of his 460 Brad let him know this was not a good thing on that line of saws. He said the squish is to tight without the BG on a 460. Old HBNr was complaining about the saw ripping the recoil out of his hand. We all had some fun with that one. Anyhow, does this not apply with the 440/460 hybrid? Great build by the way!


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

Jed1124 said:


> Just curios. I remember back when our old friend HBNR took the base gasket out of his 460 Brad let him know this was not a good thing on that line of saws. He said the squish is to tight without the BG on a 460. Old HBNr was complaining about the saw ripping the recoil out of his hand. We all had some fun with that one. Anyhow, does this not apply with the 440/460 hybrid? Great build by the way!



This engine has had the squish band and cylinder base cut. The squish is set at .025.


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## Raganr (Apr 13, 2012)

woodgrenade said:


> 1 minute or less is fine with me! I'm just looking for a basic idea of how you rough in the intake and exhaust, nothing fancy.



There are videos on youtube already. Here is one to get you started. It is a 12 parts series.

[video=youtube;D4TnMPQTtPM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4TnMPQTtPM[/video]


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## Jed1124 (Apr 13, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> This engine has had the squish band and cylinder base cut. The squish is set at .025.



Ok. So when you cut the sqish band you allow more space to compensate for not having a base gasket; is that right? I'm a newbie at this stuff, just trying to learn. Also, when I get the cash up I am going to have to send you my 460. That saw sounds awesome!


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## Mastermind (Apr 13, 2012)

Jed1124 said:


> Ok. So when you cut the sqish band you allow more space to compensate for not having a base gasket; is that right? I'm a newbie at this stuff, just trying to learn. Also, when I get the cash up I am going to have to send you my 460. That saw sounds awesome!



Cutting the squish band makes the combustion chamber smaller.....thereby raising the compression.


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## Jed1124 (Apr 13, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Cutting the squish band makes the combustion chamber smaller.....thereby raising the compression.



Got to know enough to know enough when you don't know enough to stop asking questions. That made sense after a couple glasses of red. Thanks Randy.:msp_smile:


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## wendell (Apr 14, 2012)

tl;dr


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 14, 2012)

question ,if doing 2 of the same saws at same time ,can you copy your work onto the next one to save yourself some time ,or are the tolerences so tight you need to remeasure each one to get good results ?


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## Mastermind (Apr 14, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> question ,if doing 2 of the same saws at same time ,can you copy your work onto the next one to save yourself some time ,or are the tolerences so tight you need to remeasure each one to get good results ?



That's how I do it.......I did three 066s a few weeks ago and just cut all three squish bands the same and raised the transfers to the same height. Then I check them all to see how close I was.....


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 14, 2012)

if i had known i would have sent you my 440 a week earlier ,


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## Toad22t (Apr 23, 2012)

Just wanted to say Ty for this thread. So now with takeing the base plate out do u have to remove material out of the material out of the top of the cylinder. Also by putting on the 46 p and c do u have to remove any material lot of the crankcase for clearance for the piston. And last but not least do u have to remove any plastic off of the cover for that to fit fine. Ty again for this thread and sharing ur knowledge and Ty for any help that u may be able to give me.


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## Mastermind (Apr 23, 2012)

Toad22t said:


> Just wanted to say Ty for this thread. So now with takeing the base plate out do u have to remove material out of the material out of the top of the cylinder. Also by putting on the 46 p and c do u have to remove any material lot of the crankcase for clearance for the piston. And last but not least do u have to remove any plastic off of the cover for that to fit fine. Ty again for this thread and sharing ur knowledge and Ty for any help that u may be able to give me.



I'm a little lost on some of your questions.

The top cover does need a trim, and the base must be clearanced on the sides a bit to clear the case....


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## unatool (Apr 24, 2012)

*Update: Washington State*

The final leg of this saw is complete. Home now in the Pacific Northwest.

Dressed it out with a 3/4 wrap and 30" Sugihara bar.

Nice new sticker... thanks a million Randy!View attachment 235463


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## RTK (Apr 24, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Cutting the squish band makes the combustion chamber smaller.....thereby raising the compression.



Did you change the squish angle any? If so, to what and why?


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## Mastermind (Apr 24, 2012)

unatool said:


> The final leg of this saw is complete. Home now in the Pacific Northwest.
> 
> Dressed it out with a 3/4 wrap and 30" Sugihara bar.
> 
> Nice new sticker... thanks a million Randy!View attachment 235463





Here's your pic my friend.







That Sugihara looks real good on it.


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## Mastermind (Apr 24, 2012)

RTK said:


> Did you change the squish angle any? If so, to what and why?



I cut the squish angle at about 1°.

Why? Cause it feels right.


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## RTK (Apr 25, 2012)

Sounds good to me


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## WoodChuck'r (Apr 25, 2012)

Nice saw. ::thumbsup::


Dang that thing looks familiar.... :msp_thumbsup:


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 25, 2012)

have you had a chance to start on the next 440 hybrid from washington state :msp_biggrin:


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> have you had a chance to start on the next 440 hybrid from washington state :msp_biggrin:



What 440? 








































Just messin with ya Brody. It's on the bench right now. You want it ported......right???


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> What 440?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



do your magic sir ,make wood fear this little saw


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> do your magic sir ,make wood fear this little saw



Here's your jug and slug I spoke with you about.....

See that scoring on the piston?






It was beginning to leave transfer on the plating. I would say you saved this jug when you pulled it down. A new Meteor piston and a little cleanup and it's back in business.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 25, 2012)

Looks like the flywheel was rubbing as well. Did the mains go out or the ignition get loose?


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Looks like the flywheel was rubbing as well. Did the mains go out or the ignition get loose?



I'm not sure on the history of the saw in the pic JJ. That jug and slug came from a 460 and is being transplanted onto that 440.


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## booger1286 (Apr 25, 2012)

If you dont mind me askin Randy,what was your numbers on the hybrid? Did i look over em? 
I am gettin ready to build one myself and just wantin some ideas. It looks real good, how did it feel torque wise compared to 044?


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> If you dont mind me askin Randy,what was your numbers on the hybrid? Did i look over em?
> I am gettin ready to build one myself and just wantin some ideas. It looks real good, how did it feel torque wise compared to 044?



The hybrids I build run as good as a well ported 046. The 044 ain't get a chance against one of em. I'd have to get my notes outta the shop to be 100% sure but of the top of my head the numbers I use in these saws are 

Ex. 102
Tr. 118
In. 80

Compression 190

Ignition .020 advanced at the key.


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## roger m (Apr 25, 2012)

thanks again for sharing your builds Randy,i always enjoy them :msp_thumbsup:


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## Jacob J. (Apr 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm not sure on the history of the saw in the pic JJ. That jug and slug came from a 460 and is being transplanted onto that 440.



Well, the flywheel on the saw in the picture has been rubbing against something at some point. I'm sure you've checked the bearings out real good. 
That's one of the reasons I wouldn't ever modify a used saw, or at least a used saw that I wasn't putting new bearings and seals in...


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## booger1286 (Apr 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The hybrids I build run as good as a well ported 046. The 044 ain't get a chance against one of em. I'd have to get my notes outta the shop to be 100% sure but of the top of my head the numbers I use in these saws are
> 
> Ex. 102
> Tr. 118
> ...



What did you use for the spacers at the muffler and does it make them any harder to start by advancing timing?


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Well, the flywheel on the saw in the picture has been rubbing against something at some point. I'm sure you've checked the bearings out real good.
> That's one of the reasons I wouldn't ever modify a used saw, or at least a used saw that I wasn't putting new bearings and seals in...



And that is why I rebuild so many bottom ends. I have guys send saws here that aren't in any condition for a woods port. I tell them I can either rebuild them or send em home..... :msp_wink:


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## Mastermind (Apr 25, 2012)

booger1286 said:


> What did you use for the spacers at the muffler and does it make them any harder to start by advancing timing?



I made the spacers on the lathe. On the timing advance........it ain't for every saw. I only set a saw up that way if the owner is well versed in using a performance saw. It could run a little hotter and, yeah.....it can bite your hand starting it.


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## gcdible1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> And that is why I rebuild so many bottom ends. I have guys send saws here that aren't in any condition for a woods port. I tell them I can either rebuild them or send em home..... :msp_wink:



You wouldnt be talking bout my 066 in vain would ya?:msp_sneaky:Ha. New topend, new bottom end, new attitude!Cant wait to unbox her, will prob be beating down the post office door in the morning.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 26, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Looks like the flywheel was rubbing as well. Did the mains go out or the ignition get loose?



this bottom end had bad main bearings when i got it ,good eye mr JJ,they were replaced with crank all new oem stihl,on the flywheel do the scratches hurt power on ignition ?



on the transfer on piston i didnt even inspect it when took off my 460 ,it was running good at teardown and didnt even think it could be on its way out ,maybe ive been running the orange bottle stihl oil ,i think i may change over to the ultra after seeing all the carbon build up ,i hear it doesnt carbon up like the old stuff in the orange bottle


wow i dint realize how dirty the saw was under the plastic ,it wasnt like that when i swapped the crank out last winter


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## Mastermind (Apr 26, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> You wouldnt be talking bout my 066 in vain would ya?:msp_sneaky:Ha. New topend, new bottom end, new attitude!Cant wait to unbox her, will prob be beating down the post office door in the morning.



Oh no Chad. Not _just_ yours. I see saws show up quite often that need more than a woods port. I end up rebuilding a lot of carbs, replacing fuel and impulse lines, basically whatever it takes for the saw to be in top condition when it leaves here. I recently sent a 660 out to a member that the rings never sealed up properly in. It's back for a new set of rings on my dime. The saw left here with 200psi and when I got it back it had 180.....that taught me to be even more thorough in my work. I'm not above making a mistake but at the same time I don't mind doing whatever it takes to set things right.


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## Mastermind (Apr 26, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> this bottom end had bad main bearings when i got it ,good eye mr JJ,they were replaced with crank all new oem stihl,on the flywheel do the scratches hurt power on ignition ?
> 
> 
> 
> on the transfer on piston i didnt even inspect it when took off my 460 ,it was running good at teardown and didnt even think it could be on its way out ,maybe ive been running the orange bottle stihl oil ,i think i may change over to the ultra after seeing all the carbon build up ,i hear it doesnt carbon up like the old stuff in the orange bottle




No that flywheel will be fine. I'll slick it up a tad to be sure the coil spacing is just right. I use Belray H1R and really like it because of how clean it runs. I even mix it at 36:1... I can't decide to go with 40:1 or 32:1 so I figured I'd compromise with myself. 

For breaking in an engine I keep non-synthetic oil around and run a few tanks thru my freshly rebuilt saws. I think the rings seal a bit faster that way.


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## gcdible1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Oh no Chad. Not _just_ yours. I see saws show up quite often that need more than a woods port. I end up rebuilding a lot of carbs, replacing fuel and impulse lines, basically whatever it takes for the saw to be in top condition when it leaves here. I recently sent a 660 out to a member that the rings never sealed up properly in. It's back for a new set of rings on my dime. The saw left here with 200psi and when I got it back it had 180.....that taught me to be even more thorough in my work. I'm not above making a mistake but at the same time I don't mind doing whatever it takes to set things right.



Your integrity doesnt surprise me at all. I have heard/experienced nothing but good things. I took it out for a couple mins today. Hooked up the tach too. Shouldve done that before I cut with it but i had a little helper with me too. He had his toy craftsman saw with him. His was running strong!:msp_biggrin:

When I got home and hooked up the tach it was idling around 2500rpms and would run out near 14000. It was very brief as I didnt want to run it out of the wood. Hope to go out more and do some real cutting! I had no time today.


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## Mastermind (Apr 26, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> Your integrity doesnt surprise me at all. I have heard/experienced nothing but good things. I took it out for a couple mins today. Hooked up the tach too. Shouldve done that before I cut with it but i had a little helper with me too. He had his toy craftsman saw with him. His was running strong!:msp_biggrin:
> 
> When I got home and hooked up the tach it was idling around 2500rpms and would run out near 14000. It was very brief as I didnt want to run it out of the wood. Hope to go out more and do some real cutting! I had no time today.



Back that puppy down to 13,600 or so. No need for it to rev that high.......it's just that everywhere is downhill from here till you get out west.


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## beelsr (Apr 26, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Back that puppy down to 13,600 or so. No need for it to rev that high.......it's just that everywhere is downhill from here till you get out west.



how high are you? i like to quote 1776 ft but it's really 1720-1800 on my land.

i once made the mistake of calling it a mountain to a friend who lives in Provo Utah, in the shadows of the Wasatch. He just laughed and said, "You mean hills".


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## gcdible1 (Apr 26, 2012)

One site said 960 the other 1029 so Im gonna say 1000.


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## beelsr (Apr 26, 2012)

goto usgs.gov and put in your zipcode to download a map.


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## Mastermind (Apr 26, 2012)

beelsr said:


> how high are you? i like to quote 1776 ft but it's really 1720-1800 on my land.
> 
> i once made the mistake of calling it a mountain to a friend who lives in Provo Utah, in the shadows of the Wasatch. He just laughed and said, "You mean hills".



I'm about 1900 feet here. I normally set saws a tad fat before shipping them out.....sometimes I forget that though. 


I sent an MS261 to Australia.....It left here tuned to 13,800......at sea level there.......15,600. :msp_scared:


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## gcdible1 (Apr 26, 2012)

No worries, you cant guesstimate how they are gonna run every time. Thats precisely why i bought the tach. Didnt want and cant afford to send her back for a reconstruction.:msp_scared: Hopefully things will seat well and she will only get better.

ANYHOW...Back to the hybrid!


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## H 2 H (Apr 27, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> *I'm about 1900 feet here*. I normally set saws a tad fat before shipping them out.....sometimes I forget that though.
> 
> 
> I sent an MS261 to Australia.....It left here tuned to 13,800......at sea level there.......15,600. :msp_scared:




Man your up in the clouds 

I'm less than 1/2 mile from salt water maybe 200 feet if Im lucky


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## beelsr (Apr 27, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm about 1900 feet here. I normally set saws a tad fat before shipping them out.....sometimes I forget that though.
> 
> 
> I sent an MS261 to Australia.....It left here tuned to 13,800......at sea level there.......15,600. :msp_scared:




Yowza! :cool2:


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## tramp bushler (May 23, 2012)

Randy ,; Your work looks very nice and the saw sounds good and mad . Do you mod Huskies also ?


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## Mastermind (May 23, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Randy ,; Your work looks very nice and the saw sounds good and mad . Do you mod Huskies also ?



I'd modify a toaster. :msp_thumbup:


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## bryanr2 (May 23, 2012)

what's a husky?


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## Roll Tide (May 23, 2012)

Heck yeah when I come and pick up my saw ill have to bring you my toaster. I was just thinking the other day that I want a faster toaster but thought there was no hope till now


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## blsnelling (May 23, 2012)

Shoot, he'd mod the knife that spreads the butter that goes on the bread that goes in the toaster:hmm3grin2orange:


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## WoodChuck'r (May 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Shoot, he'd mod the knife that spreads the butter that goes on the bread that goes in the toaster:hmm3grin2orange:




What I'd be interested in is modded butter.....


Landolakes can already start marketing. "Ported Butter" - saltier and fattier. ::thumbsup::


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## bryanr2 (May 23, 2012)

rolltide said:


> Heck yeah when I come and pick up my saw ill have to bring you my toaster. I was just thinking the other day that I want a faster toaster but thought there was no hope till now



i dont own a toaster.... my wife does. I am forbidden from entering the kitchen. Kinda nice (refill please)


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## wyk (May 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Shoot, he'd mod the knife that spreads the butter that goes on the bread that goes in the toaster:hmm3grin2orange:









I've modded a knife or two...


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## bryanr2 (May 23, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Randy ,; Your work looks very nice and the saw sounds good and mad . Do you mod Huskies also ?




He's got a 288xp lite there... if he dares! .:biggrinbounce2:


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## Mastermind (May 23, 2012)

wyk said:


> I've modded a knife or two...



Dang man. That's purty.


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## Mastermind (May 23, 2012)

bryanr2 said:


> He's got a 288xp lite there... if he dares! .:biggrinbounce2:



I'll try my best to get your 288 and a 7900 both done next week.


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## wyk (May 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Dang man. That's purty.



When yer a no-name knifemaker, making knives is almost a waste of time; no one will give you what you have in to one. I made that for my brother. I have always been good at manipulating metal since I was in auto shop in HS(and later industrial design in university). Anywho, that Bowie has mebbe 80-100 hours in it. I could maybe sold it for $400. Would you work for $4/hr?

It started life as a shank of steel, block of pacific burl madrone, and elk antler, some nickle silver for the guard, and epoxy and a pin to hold it all together. Finishing is where all the time is. The blade is 12" long, and 2" wide, the spine is 1/4" thick and goes nearly to the butt at that width, putting the balance point 1" up from the handle. For a 12" Bowie, it is very fast in the hands. I cleaved through a ham with the bone in it to show my brother what it could do. It was also the last knife I made. I just didn't have the time for it back then. I always meant to come back to it, but never did.


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## bryanr2 (May 23, 2012)

bryanr2 said:


> He's got a 288xp lite there... if he dares! .:biggrinbounce2:



That's all Ive got in saws, until i wrap up this other deal. My Goats are cutting into my "play monies", but it sure is fun having all those kid goats around. Bought 3 new boar goats and my nanny I already had, had twins 3 days later. Wife took some money and bought 3 show quality registered Flemmish Giant Rabbits. It took me 2 weekends and $1000 to build them what I felt was suitable, humane (size wise) rabbit hutches. (Lets put it this way- my wife can get in the hutches and sit up comfortably and play with them) Monday one of her "steel gray" does named Misty had 11 babies so that means more cages in 8 weeks. These aren't "feeder rabbits", I cant imagine registered rabbits being that easy to sell, guess we will see. I'm slowly weaning myself from spending as much time on here dreaming of saws.


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## unatool (May 23, 2012)

The 440/460 Hybrid has it's first big job tomorrow ...

45 inch DBH Douglas fir - in front yard near the university.
you know... the fancy neighborhood

See attached pic


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## Mastermind (May 23, 2012)

unatool said:


> The 440/460 Hybrid has it's first big job tomorrow ...
> 
> 45 inch DBH Douglas fir - in front yard near the university.
> you know... the fancy neighborhood
> ...



Here's your pic.......

I twisted it around for ya. Damn big tree.


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## bryanr2 (May 23, 2012)

unatool said:


> The 440/460 Hybrid has it's first big job tomorrow ...
> 
> 45 inch DBH Douglas fir - in front yard near the university.
> you know... the fancy neighborhood
> ...



Id say that fir aint got a chance against the beast.


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## unatool (May 24, 2012)

What did Deniro say?

"How would you like to meet my little friend "


PS - 90 ton crane coming to lift out logs.
can't wait to count the rings. I'm guessing 100 to 140.


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## CR500 (May 24, 2012)

unatool said:


> What did Deniro say?
> 
> "How would you like to meet my little friend "
> 
> ...



Are u quoting Al Pacino in Scarface?? lol


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## tramp bushler (May 24, 2012)

Boy , that Doug Fir is about a grouse ladder isn't it . 
How far up did you top it .??


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## bryanr2 (May 24, 2012)

unatool said:


> What did Deniro say?
> 
> "How would you like to meet my little friend "
> 
> ...



I dont know, what did Deniro say?

And Pachino said "Say hello to my little friend"..... wasnt a question, it was an invitation!:msp_thumbup: Great movie, I'll have to pull it from the shelf and watch again.


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## unatool (May 24, 2012)

Sorry about the Pachino mistake... unforgivable

I limbed the tree on the way up. Pretty big yard to let the branches just fall.
Truck and chipper down by curb... running the whole time.
Topped it @ about 90 feet. Tricky but landed where I planned. 

Crane tomorrow. Climb back up and lift 16 foot logs down.
MasterMind 440/460 Hybrid. Priceless ... seriously!


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## Trx250r180 (May 24, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Here's your pic.......
> 
> I twisted it around for ya. Damn big tree.



these fir have some nice beams in them are you going to mill them or firewood them ?


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## woodyman (May 24, 2012)

Nice work Randy:msp_thumbup:I was wondering what you did to the upper transfers.Were they raised and lengthened?Do you advance the timing on a lot of saws and which mod makes this necessary or why is this necessary?I had a 440BB muffler modded for a few days:frown:It had a lot more vibes than my 372 but felt solid.


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## Mastermind (May 24, 2012)

woodyman said:


> Nice work Randy:msp_thumbup:I was wondering what you did to the upper transfers.Were they raised and lengthened?Do you advance the timing on a lot of saws and which mod makes this necessary or why is this necessary?I had a 440BB muffler modded for a few days:frown:It had a lot more vibes than my 372 but felt solid.



I raise and widen the uppers on the 1128 series. I don't widen them as much as many that I've seen though. Remember the transfers use a pumping action so time/area of the uppers isn't as crucial as good flow is through the lowers and under the bridge.

As for the ignition timing it's not something I do an every saw. It depends on the operator and the saw model.


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## Jacob J. (May 24, 2012)

Changing the weight of the piston helps with the vibration issues on the 1128 series and the 1122 series as well.


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## woodyman (May 24, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I raise and widen the uppers on the 1128 series. I don't widen them as much as many that I've seen though. Remember the transfers use a pumping action so time/area of the uppers isn't as crucial as good flow is through the lowers and under the bridge.
> 
> As for the ignition timing it's not something I do an every saw. It depends on the operator and the saw model.


Thanks Randy.A funnel isn't a bad shape but you don't want an hourglass figure as far as transfers go:hmm3grin2orange:


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## minifly3 (May 24, 2012)

I'm kinda new here but the boys seem to respect you. What damage could you do to a stihl 201t? (the good kind of damage ofcourse)


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## wendell (May 24, 2012)

Man, do we have you fooled. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## bryanr2 (May 24, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> I'm kinda new here but the boys seem to respect you. What damage could you do to a stihl 201t? (the good kind of damage ofcourse)



Respect who? Randy? I wouldnt let him touch not a single one of my saws........... that's why he did them all!


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## Roll Tide (May 24, 2012)

Heck no I wouldn't trust him with my saw but my toaster is a different story .


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## bryanr2 (May 24, 2012)

rolltide said:


> Heck no I wouldn't trust him with my saw but my toaster is a different story .




Where in the hell is Soddy Daisy TN?


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## Mastermind (May 24, 2012)

minifly3 said:


> I'm kinda new here but the boys seem to respect you. What damage could you do to a stihl 201t? (the good kind of damage ofcourse)



I've not done a 201T yet. If one lands on my bench......I would call Brad Snelling and ask him what he does to them. He has done several and I think he has posted some threads on them. I don't mind working one over....but I would ask some guys that have done a few where to start. 

Many of us are good friends here and sharing our finding and experiences is what helps us all improve our end product.


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## Mastermind (May 24, 2012)

bryanr2 said:


> Where in the hell is Soddy Daisy TN?



Near Chattanooga.....

Rolltide is a Stihl Tech.......handy with a wrench so I hear. :msp_wink:


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## Roll Tide (May 25, 2012)

Someone lied to you randy lol... And soddy daisy is about 20 miles north of Chattanooga


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## unatool (May 25, 2012)

440/460 Hybrid saw. Crane job - YouTube

Above link is from the tree pictured a page previous.
90 ton crane. 8000 lb logs - 16 ft long.
Randy's saw was awesome... MasterMind Saw Works gets it done!

You can see me cut slow, trying not to get pinched!
I get the next few cuts better - but no pictures! so you have to believe me...


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## Mastermind (May 25, 2012)

Thanks for posting that video Steven. It's awesome seeing a saw I've built in the hands of a pro. 

Do you have much trouble with those brass balls clanging together while you climb? You gotta have a set of em.


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## wigglesworth (May 25, 2012)

Ehh..... Looks slow...


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## Mastermind (May 25, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Ehh..... Looks slow...



Nuttin to see here. Move along.


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## blsnelling (May 25, 2012)

EveV a cave man could do that


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## Mastermind (May 25, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> EveV a cave man could do that



You wouldn't catch me in a tree like that. I'm too old and scared. :msp_ohmy:


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## blsnelling (May 25, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> You wouldn't catch me in a tree like that. I'm too old and scared. :msp_ohmy:



I was talking about the porting, lol.


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## wendell (May 25, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Ehh..... Looks slow...



It was pretty blippy. Must have a very narrow power band. :msp_unsure:


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## tramp bushler (May 28, 2012)

. I think it sounds awesome ! I think the throtle blipping is a combo of a guy with a nice new hot saw . And basicalling bucking a log clean off that is standing straight over his head . . Plus some guys just like ( gassin er )

That saw sounds real good .


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## Rounder (May 28, 2012)

Randy, you and the rest....quit calling them 440/460 hybrids....We always called them 470's......Little more appropriate.....


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## unatool (May 29, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> . I think it sounds awesome ! I think the throtle blipping is a combo of a guy with a nice new hot saw . And basicalling bucking a log clean off that is standing straight over his head . . Plus some guys just like ( gassin er )
> 
> That saw sounds real good .



Yes, you described it well. The 'blippy' stuff is mostly me being scared. Trying not to get my new saw pinched in an 8000 lb log. Was showing off a little... my old boss was on-site to help with the crane!

Also helps the crane operator know that things are funky up @ 90 feet. Getting that Sugihara bar stuck would have had big consequences.


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## Mastermind (May 29, 2012)

unatool said:


> Yes, you described it well. The 'blippy' stuff is mostly me being scared. Trying not to get my new saw pinched in an 8000 lb log. Was showing off a little... my old boss was on-site to help with the crane!
> 
> Also helps the crane operator know that things are funky up @ 90 feet. Getting that Sugihara bar stuck would have had big consequences.



What did you do with the logs Steven? I would imagine they went straight to the mill, but can't help but wonder.


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## unatool (May 29, 2012)

I got a permit from the City to shut the street down.. Set the logs down on the road.
The self loader made 3 trips to the mill that day. Done at 2 pm.
My crew flush cut the big ass stumps, the split and loaded into F350.
I spent next 4 hours grinding the stumps! Threw some grass seed down and gave the man an invoice.

Should be interesting to hear how much money the timber fetched.

p.s. the 288 XP is almost in a box, headed to Tennessee. Will contact you soon.


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## Mastermind (May 29, 2012)

unatool said:


> I got a permit from the City to shut the street down.. Set the logs down on the road.
> The self loader made 3 trips to the mill that day. Done at 2 pm.
> My crew flush cut the big ass stumps, the split and loaded into F350.
> I spent next 4 hours grinding the stumps! Threw some grass seed down and gave the man an invoice.
> ...




Thanks for the rundown on the operation. :msp_thumbup:

We used clear fir for exterior siding and soffits for years.....I guess it ended up getting too expensive because everything switched to pine and/or vinyl.... 

I'll be heading out Saturday morning for a 10-12 day vacation. The post office will be holding my mail and my sister-in-law will be keeping an eye out for UPS.....

In other words........bring it on.


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## Trx250r180 (May 29, 2012)

so hows it pull that 30 inch bar ? that tree looked bigger than 30 to me


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## unatool (Jun 9, 2012)

The saw pulls the 30 no problem. I thought about getting a 32 but stayed just below.

The log value - almost $2,000 dollars. Minus the $500 for the loaders fee - 2 loads. Peanuts

View attachment 241063


above pic is of the 3 trees we did this week - finished the backyard. 7 trees total - done
Now the man can see the Ocean from his porch.
p.s. - these spars were 'chunked down - too close to wires for any crane.

p.p.s - big trees (last week's job) were 45" DBH. Only 80 years old...


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## Mastermind (Jun 9, 2012)

Here's your pic Steven.







I appreciate you posting these pics and updates. :msp_thumbup:


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## MTNBOY (Nov 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Roughing in the intake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So after our 660 talk today I started into this 44 with 460 top I got. How did you determine how far to push the transfers without sacraficing velocity? And do you do anything with the piston windows?


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## blsnelling (Nov 11, 2012)

The 460 is one saw that runs best with less blowdown.


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2012)

MTNBOY said:


> So after our 660 talk today I started into this 44 with 460 top I got. How did you determine how far to push the transfers without sacraficing velocity? And do you do anything with the piston windows?



I've quit cutting on the piston in a worksaw. The gains are minimal and not worth weakening the piston IMHO. 

I don't enlarge the transfer tunnels at all on the 460.....there's no need to unless you plan on a larger carb. The best thing to do is to get a degree wheel setup and check your port timing....then make a decision on what you want from the engine, that way you know where you are heading. 



blsnelling said:


> The 460 is one saw that runs best with less blowdown.



That's true......very true. I think he is asking about enlarging the transfer passages or "tunnels" though.


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## MTNBOY (Nov 11, 2012)

Ill worded on my part. Was talking about the transfers entering the cylinder top side of the piston. I really appreciate you two (randy and brad) sharing your knowledge


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## Mastermind (Nov 11, 2012)

MTNBOY said:


> Ill worded on my part. Was talking about the transfers entering the cylinder top side of the piston. I really appreciate you two (randy and brad) sharing your knowledge



You really need to use a degree wheel to set up the port timing. Widen the uppers too much and you will hang a ring.


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## MTNBOY (Nov 11, 2012)

Yeah all the mods I want to do always seem to come back to a degree wheel. Guess tell the old lady I'm building my one tommorrow. Get the basics of no flat horizontal edges learned that one before I found this forum lucky it was in my r and d poulan. Rings are 3 bucks from sears lol


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