# skidder vs dozer



## 4x4American (Oct 27, 2014)

Looking to hear some opinions on logging with a dozer vs a skidder? gypo operation im talking about here. cant seem to find a decent skidder for my price range. theres an older d4 w/ hyster winch in pretty decent shape down the road for more my budget. The setbacks that I see are- 1: needs to be moved w/ a trailer always. 2: doesn't have log arch. 3: undercarriage can be expensive. 4: not as maneuverable as a skidder. Plusses I can see- 1: Will move wood for cheaper than a skidder. if undercarriage lasts me long enough that I've pulled enough wood to pay for itself and maybe some of the parts for it i'm happy. 2: better for building roads. 3: I can hire myself out as a dozer owner/op if need arises. 4: old cat dozers will go through hell and back, they are tried and true.

Thanks!


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## Gologit (Oct 27, 2014)

You seem to have a good opinion of Cats. Have you run one very much?


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## northmanlogging (Oct 27, 2014)

Comes down to ground, steep ground and short pulls a cat really shines, flat ground, or at least semi flat ground, and long pulls can't beat a skidder.

At the same time you have to go with what you can afford and what you can find, a cat will get you logging, as far as making it profitable, well that's up to you.

Another thing to consider is that a tracked machine can tear up the surface more than a wheeled machine, while not really bad, the average Land Owner doesn't know the difference between compaction and erosion. 

Getting a small machine moved isn't all that bad, it gets significantly worse the larger the machine...

In a perfect world both machines would be ideal...


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## DavdH (Oct 28, 2014)

Crawler first then skidder later, skidder's are pretty much specialists and crawlers are generalists in the woods, crawler can do it all, skidders can skid.


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## OlympicYJ (Oct 28, 2014)

How old of D4 are you looking at?


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

Gologit said:


> You seem to have a good opinion of Cats. Have you run one very much?



I've got a bit of seat time on an 80s D5 cat from work, that things my sweetheart. Just push dirt with her. I've also got some seat time in deere 350's and 450's. Have skidded with one 350 that had a winch on it. One of the steering brakes was shot, so had to do everything using only one brake. Got used to runnin it that way pretty fast.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> Comes down to ground, steep ground and short pulls a cat really shines, flat ground, or at least semi flat ground, and long pulls can't beat a skidder.
> 
> At the same time you have to go with what you can afford and what you can find, a cat will get you logging, as far as making it profitable, well that's up to you.
> 
> ...



Yea around here there's alot of steep ground, but also a bit of flat ground, depending where you're working. Sometimes there's alot of land to be logged and sometimes there's only 5-10 acres for the landowner. I figure I'll proberly start out doing smaller jobs, maybe some road building and such. The D4 has some gnarly grousers on it, it will most definitely tear up the ground pretty good. I don't know if the dozer is light enough to move with a gooseneck and pickup truck.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> How old of D4 are you looking at?


I can't remember exactly but I believe it's late 70s-early 80s. It needs a cable and new batteries, a couple of minor things welded, a good grease job, full fluid service, and who knows what else. For the most part looks ready to go.


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## bnmc98 (Oct 28, 2014)

Just a thought, you mentioned building road. A D4 might not be enough guts especially if you are dealing with rock, steep hills, large stumps, etc... we use a D6 and its about right but we build a lot of raod. Comes in handy if a truck gets stuck too.
Also, in my opinion, speed is a big factor as well. If you are going to build road and move your landing as you go, a crawler might serve well, but a skidder is king for getting wood to the landing much faster, and smoother.

Like Northman said, in a perfect world, both would be an asset.


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## Gologit (Oct 28, 2014)

4x4American said:


> I can't remember exactly but I believe it's late 70s-early 80s. It needs a cable and new batteries, a couple of minor things welded, a good grease job, full fluid service, and who knows what else. For the most part looks ready to go.



You've had some good advice from some people with actual experience. I agree that the 4 would be a better machine to start with. I don't know what your ground or timber is like but a small Cat would probably be more versatile than a skidder. They're not a real power-house but if a guy is patient with them and doesn't start thinking he's running an 8 he can get a lot of work done.
Brush up on your welding skills and your wrenching skills, too. Makes friends with a good parts supplier.
Crawl underneath it before you buy it. Take a flash lite and a putty knife to scrape off gunk with. Look at every gusset and weld. Every one. Spend some time under there and look at everything. A lot of Cats have been on their side or upside down and sometimes the resulting damage won't show up for a while.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

Thanks GL, I'll give her a thorough checkup before I put any money down. 


I wonder how much a log arch would cost or where I could find one...hmm


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

bnmc98 said:


> Just a thought, you mentioned building road. A D4 might not be enough guts especially if you are dealing with rock, steep hills, large stumps, etc... we use a D6 and its about right but we build a lot of raod. Comes in handy if a truck gets stuck too.
> Also, in my opinion, speed is a big factor as well. If you are going to build road and move your landing as you go, a crawler might serve well, but a skidder is king for getting wood to the landing much faster, and smoother.
> 
> Like Northman said, in a perfect world, both would be an asset.




I think that for my applecation, it might be okay. I am not going to be starting out full time, I have a regular job with an excavation/construction company, and my plan is to log during the winter time when we're slow. After mud season I'll most likely be back to working for them, unless I'm doing well making ends meet logging and sawmilling.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

Went and checked it out more thoroughly this afternoon. It's an 81-82 D4E. It aint in that bad corndition honestly. There were a few cracks in belly pan/skid plate that were welded. I think just from stump jumping I would guess. The rear end is leaking from the gasket area, just starting to seep on one side and been seeping for awhile on the other throughout larger portion of gasket. That don't worry me too much, just gotta keep on top of the earl. Hyster winch has seen some use but not too bad looking. That spring thing that goes acrost the bottom, well the mount on one side has been fabricated, not that bad looking, but not that great looking either. Batteries are dead, which is expected, it's been sitting for two years, except for the occasional start up and move to different spot in yard type deal. Lift ram on front blade needs to be repacked. The sprockets have about a 1/4"-5/16" of flat spot left at tip, not sure how much they are supposed to have and at what point they need replaced. She told me that the springs there that tension the tracks have been recently replaced. The injection pump is leaking where the shaft that controls governor enters. Not sure what all needs to be done there. Missing winch cable. Other than that stuff, just small stuff, like lights need to be wired up to a switch, needs handles welded on, needs full service, etc. It doesn't look like it's really been abused (except the fact that nothing looked greased).

I think it will do what I need it to do, but I am still tentative for a few reasons:
1. I don't know if my 3/4 ton pickup will be able to move it.
2. It doesn't have a log arch, and I want to keep logs clean as possible/leave minimal impact.
3. I can't drive it down the road like I could a skidder.
4. It's not a skidder.

What I do like:
1. Versatile
2. Tracks provide excellent traction
3. Built like a burlap bag full of bobcats
4. No computey box


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## rwoods (Oct 28, 2014)

4x4American said:


> I think it will do what I need it to do, but I am still tentative for a few reasons:
> 1. I don't know if my 3/4 ton pickup will be able to move it.



I ain't riding with you - at least not very far or fast. Doesn't that baby weigh around 19,000#? Ron


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## Gologit (Oct 28, 2014)

If it looks like nothing has ever been greased I think I'd take a harder look at it. Add up the costs for all the repairs you need to make on it before you even start using it. It might be quite a bit. If you're not in a hurry and you can do the work yourself you might be alright but shop rates will just kill you.
How many hours on the engine? How about an engine oil analysis? If the present owners have let small items slide it would make me wonder about other things.

Just 'cause you _can_ buy it doesn't always mean you _should _buy it. It's for sale for a reason.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2014)

There Mr. right and Mr. right now...

rams not a big deal, you can do most it at home,

the injection pump could be problematic... as in big expense to make reliable right away...

Sprockets can be fine but the chains could be toast... just something to consider.

Grease can be deceiving, if its been sitting awhile the grease will have dried out anyway, and maybe even flaked off, with luck there should be some sign of some grease somewhere. Best clue is if the zerts are clogged up and not working it probably hasn't been greased in the last 10 years or so.

As far as moving it with a 3/4 ton, possible yes, wise NO... safe definitely not...

figure on 200 or so for some new winch line and a few chokers.

Think I mentioned before somewheres about building an arch for cheap, couple of spindles and wheels of a medium/heavy duty truck, welded to a frame some heavy wall 4" tubing, steal the fair lead off of something or build your own, couple of bearings and some schedule 80 or better pipe, could even get fancy and just rig it to the top of the winch and away you go.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

rwoods said:


> I ain't riding with you - at least not very far or fast. Doesn't that baby weigh around 19,000#? Ron




That dude hauled a D4 with a dodge pickup. Mines a 24 valve. Not sure I'd even try to haul it. It aint about the go as much as it's about the whoa. Lots a steep grades and hairpin turns around here.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

Gologit said:


> If it looks like nothing has ever been greased I think I'd take a harder look at it. Add up the costs for all the repairs you need to make on it before you even start using it. It might be quite a bit. If you're not in a hurry and you can do the work yourself you might be alright but shop rates will just kill you.
> How many hours on the engine? How about an engine oil analysis? If the present owners have let small items slide it would make me wonder about other things.
> 
> Just 'cause you _can_ buy it doesn't always mean you _should _buy it. It's for sale for a reason.



I am not in a hurry to put it to work right away. My regular job is still going, but in another month or so we will be done for the season, leaving me with alot of time, looking for dime. The hourmeter doesn't work, it reads 600 something hours. So I'm not sure how many it's got. I could most likely get an engine oil analysis. The lady went from stubborn on her price, to open to offers when I mentioned c/s/s some firewood for her. (she's an older lady who had a good run of bad luck that ended her up with these machines). I am able to do most if not all of the work it needs myself. I could get an oil sample, not sure where to send it around here. I agree with the letting small items slide, but I did notice, that there was no crack or break I could find that went un-welded.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

northmanlogging said:


> There Mr. right and Mr. right now...
> 
> rams not a big deal, you can do most it at home,
> 
> ...



hah Mr. Right and Mr. Right now that's good. The injection pump could need rebuilt. I know of a place not far away who specializes in IP rebuilding. You know, maybe after sitting for two years, the weather has taken out the visible grease. Plus it taint been working so no grease really getting pounded out or new put in. I don't think I will try to move it with my old tired 3/4 ton. I agree I bet I could come up with some sort of log arch on the gyppo side of things.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm thinking dozer too Versatile, not good for long skids though. Opening /closing jobs, waterbars, and the other work you mentioned. How much is she asking?


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## Gologit (Oct 28, 2014)

If there's a Cat dealer nearby they can take care of the oil analysis. Cummins or most any other engine shop can too but I've had good luck with Cat. Metal traces in the oil can mean different things to different engine guys. The Cat guys would be in the best position to analyze the analysis.


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## 4x4American (Oct 28, 2014)

I got a message from a feller with a 440b wants 10k for it says its working daily, well maintained.


hammerlogging said:


> I'm thinking dozer too Versatile, not good for long skids though. Opening /closing jobs, waterbars, and the other work you mentioned. How much is she asking?



She's asking for 10 im gonna try and get it for 8. and yea I'm thinking it's versatility is good cause odd jobs will help keep afloat when other things are slow.


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## Spawn (Oct 30, 2014)

I skid with a D4.

4x4 American, not knowing the year but I'll give you a tip on the best way to appraise used equipment. Go to Machinery Trader or Rock and Dirt. Select auction results. You said it was an older one. That could be an '57 or a '80 like mine. You can narrow it down, though. For auctions on several hundred machines all years, you'll get results like those below.

You Searched For: Manufacturer = CATERPILLAR; Model = D4
Auction Prices Equipment For Sale Prices
Total number of listings found:690 
Highest price found:US $130,000 
Lowest price found:US $1,000 
Average price*:*US $27,596 
Average w/out High & Low*: $27,485 *

Narrow it down for just the years between years 1970 and 1986 it is like this. (You have to select, "High Low Average," after you complete a search.)


You Searched For: Manufacturer = CATERPILLAR; Model = D4; Year From = 1970; Year To = 1986
Auction Prices Equipment For Sale Prices
Total number of listings found:55
Highest price found:US $70,000 
Lowest price found:US $2,500 
Average price*:*US $11,829 US 
Average w/out High & Low*: *US $10,907

I won mine playing poker but hope this helps.


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## bitzer (Oct 31, 2014)

I had the same issue with my inj pump. When they took it apart there were other things wrong. I told em to rebuild it, cost me a grand. Injectors probably need wotk too. Get it started and warm and check to see how much oil is coming out of the breather. I'd be reluctant to pull the trigger on anything thats been sitting that long. Turning wrenches gets old when you're trying to make money. I would plan on several thousand after purchase price for parts/repairs.


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## AKDoug (Oct 31, 2014)

That old D4 in that video is significantly lighter than than an 81-82 D4(which should be an "E" model) Original D4's were a 11,000# unit, the D4E's are pushing 19,000#.


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## Ol' Grump (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm retired so I can pick and choose the jobs I take on. I've got an old Ford F600 dump truck, a nice heavy trailer to tow behind it, an '85 Ford backhoe and a 1951 Cat D4 with 4A blade and D4N winch. I do a bit of dirt work from time to time as well as taking the D4 and doing a bit of skidding with it for some local folks. Terrain here is anything but flat, closest to flat would run 12-15% and goes up from there. Usually fairly short skids but occasionally steep ground and that's where the D4 and winch shine. Good all around versatile machine, not as fast or powerful as newer stuff and shows it's age but it does about anything I want. 

I had looked at a Timberjack skidder once but decided on the D4 instead.


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## 4x4American (Nov 2, 2014)

Spawn said:


> I skid with a D4.
> 
> 4x4 American, not knowing the year but I'll give you a tip on the best way to appraise used equipment. Go to Machinery Trader or Rock and Dirt. Select auction results. You said it was an older one. That could be an '57 or a '80 like mine. You can narrow it down, though. For auctions on several hundred machines all years, you'll get results like those below.
> 
> ...



Hey thanks alot! That's a great game of poker! It's a D4e, 1980's


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## Spawn (Nov 8, 2014)

4x4American said:


> Hey thanks alot! That's a great game of poker! It's a D4e, 1980's



Damn right lol he ran out of Harley's and didn't know when to quit. Cost $900 to haul it home though.


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## hseII (Nov 8, 2014)

4x4American said:


> That dude hauled a D4 with a dodge pickup. Mines a 24 valve. Not sure I'd even try to haul it. It aint about the go as much as it's about the whoa. Lots a steep grades and hairpin turns around here.




Please don't 

D4 is minimum 2 Ton truck territory: Ive seen it done with a 1 ton, but not safely, and not for long.


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## 4x4American (Nov 10, 2014)

Spawn said:


> Damn right lol he ran out of Harley's and didn't know when to quit. Cost $900 to haul it home though.



Shoot still not bad!


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## 4x4American (Nov 13, 2014)

So I was talkin with a local logger today and he's got a TJ 230 he'll sell to me for $10k. Which aint a bad price for a 230 round here, which got me thinkin whats wrong with it. He claims nothing, it's in use everyday. He's got 4 skidders and doesn't need all of them so is looking to downsize. He's not in a huge rush to sell it. It's got the 4 spd manual trans, 3-53 detroit, tires and chains are good he said. I gotta go look at it, hopefully some time this weekend I can make it out to the header and check her out. 

I talked with 2 local loggers about that old dozer. One told me he started out with a dozer (im pretty sure most old timers did) but he had that undercarriage shot after 6 months from skidding over all the ledge that's around here. The other guy told me he looked at that D4 and said its junk because of the old style rear sprockets they are 1 piece and you have to take out the whole final drives or something to change em and the shaft costs $5400 to get and you can't find this or that...well I lost him after a bit.

Anyways, $10k for a TJ 230 I don't think I can go wrong.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 13, 2014)

while i am not a fan of 200 series jacks, that is about inline up there for small cable skidders. used to be cheap around here but the junk man scarfed up every thing that weren't rolling.


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## 4x4American (Nov 13, 2014)

everywhere I see people selling TJ 230s they want 15-20k for them. Everything is expensive nowadays


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## northmanlogging (Nov 13, 2014)

If its working daily, and on the job, take her for hot lap, maybe pull of couple of turns, if she feels good then jump on it.

The old jacks are supposed to be easy to find parts for, Detroits are everywhere, and the rest of the parts are off the shelf at NAPA... usually...


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## Ol' Grump (Nov 14, 2014)

4x4, Parts for those older D4's are usually available from your local Cat dealer, even parts going back to the earlier ones (40's and 50's) can be found at your local dealer. Yes, they're one piece sprockets but to replace 'em that can be done by someone with the appropriate tooling and portable presses, no need to full the finals. Or, sprocket rims are available from Cat as well and all it takes is a good welder who pays attention to detail.

For other odds and ends, there are numerous yards that specialize in used parts all over the country. 

If the undercarriage is worn out and the rest of it is in good shape, at a low enough price (think scrap) it might be worth putting the money into new sprocket rims and track chains.


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## 4x4American (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks NM and Ol' Grump. 

I'm going to go look at that skidder asap. While I like the idea of the dozer being more versatile, I would prefer a skidder. There's lots of steep ground round here and in the winter time I'd rather be on a skidder with chains than a dozer with tracks...tracked machines have a tendency to take off.

How's the old Missus NM?


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## northmanlogging (Nov 17, 2014)

She's still stompin through the woods, leaking fluid and snapping cables.


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## 4x4American (Nov 17, 2014)

When you snap cables do you just cut it off where it broke, move the bells up, tie a knot, and get on to carefree motoring?


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 17, 2014)

i always have but now i'm going to try the quik knob.


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## 4x4American (Nov 17, 2014)

I've not heard of that
whats it


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 17, 2014)

sleeve with steel wedges that go inside and hold tight as you pull the cable.........we shall see...........


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## 4x4American (Nov 17, 2014)

huh...must be kinda something like a chinese finger trap way that it works.

report back will ya!


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## northmanlogging (Nov 17, 2014)

Quick knobs, takes about 20 mins to replace one and ya loose less cable in the process, a knot generally burns a foot or two of line, along with whatever goes with the breakage, where the quick knob only looses about a foot if you catch it early.

Just need a hammer and a flat punch to fix em, maybe a grinder or cable cutter if you want it to look nice. (an old axe in a stump works but is less then safe...)

I've found the the knots tended to break and crap out fairly quick anyway, or they never got tied correctly so I'd have to redo it you know after all the sliders had come off... total pain in the ass...

The quick knob is more or less infinitely reusable, unless ya loose part of it, but they do sell replacement wedges...


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## Sawyer Rob (Nov 18, 2014)

That cable repair sounds like something I'd be interested in... I've been looking for quick nobs on line and I've found nothing... Do you have a link??

Thanks, SR


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)

try split wedge ferrule


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)

this thing..........the wedges are shaped so one strand goes in each grove, the ferrule is cone shaped so it gets tighter as you pull........its a little tricky to get started right.
northman can chime in here if i got it wrong.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)




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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)

a salvage yard nearby has spools of this 3/4 solid cable for 1.55 a foot...............i shoulda got 150' prolly. i can see it now get within 3 feet and out.


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## Sawyer Rob (Nov 18, 2014)

treeslayer2003 said:


> try split wedge ferrule



Thanks for the suggestion... 

SR


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

Looks good, give the wedges a little tap with a punch to really seat them, then once you pull on something they set good and solid, cable should break before they slip.

Getting them apart can be a chore, cut em off clean on both sides and use a punch from the small end, helps to have something solid with a hole in it to rest in on... like a waist high stump... or the end of a log... Then just reassemble.

Only bummer is they only work on the regular 6x?? stuff no 8x?? hoisting wire, which I have a pile off...


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

Also helps to bind off the cable before reassembly about 3" below where you want the knob to sit, otherwise you end up chasing the wedge up the line... a quick wrap of tape or wire is all it takes.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)

oh i tapped um good.............i take it i should wait to trim it untill it gets pulled good?


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

it helps... a little... mostly out of paranoia... if you give the wedges a good tap the wire doesn't seem to pull through much if any.

My first few attempts at this I just sorta threw it together and crossed my fingers... only pulled about 1/2" or so without any tapping... of course it took about an hour that first time since I hadn't figured on needing to sieze the wire so I sorta chased my tail a bit...

Winch line is why I picked up a TS 400 hot saw... cutting cable with an axe gets old quick, especially alone, position-smack-reposition-smack-reposition-miss- reposition-smack-reposition-falls off-re, falls off (leave hurt something inanimate) reposition-smack...


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## 4x4American (Nov 18, 2014)

so will the sliders pass over it or will they get caught on it


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

I use the same size knob that ya see in Slayers pics, on 3/4 cable, much larger then the holes in most sliders, even the big loop style get caught by these, they also make a larger size knob that is like 2" in diameter or so, if it don't stop the slider you need to get different sliders...

I've gone away from the big hole sliders seems like they tear up the cable faster. even if they are easier to work with.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 18, 2014)

i think ya right on that northy, however the hook style looses chokers........the pin will not.


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 18, 2014)

TS I gotta say I'm surprised there isn't a rigging shop nearby that can make cable straps with eyes. If they can do that then they can press dog knobs on if they had the knobs. You could go old school and babbitt em lol


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

The pressed on knobs are hard to press on in the bushes... 

The pinned sliders are nice and all but if you have to swap out different length chokers with any frequency they start to suck pretty fast.


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 18, 2014)

I know. Was just saying you would think there would be a rigging outfit that has a press, just maybe not the proper knobs for ends. The quickknobs be handy though. Lots of droplines on yarders have a quickknob on em with a hook and seem to hold just fine.

The old man is wanting one of those cut-off saws too, doesn't want one bad enough for new though lol


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## northmanlogging (Nov 18, 2014)

I got two, one is in pretty bad shape, had to rebuild the other, bearings, seals, p+c, carb still needs a looking at but i runs long enough for my needs. 

Second one needs all of the above and a top handle assm as well as whatever else I stole off of it..., carb should be ok... like that helps...


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 19, 2014)

I hear ya. I have a 288 that needs a ton of crap!


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## 4x4American (Nov 19, 2014)

man I had 2 372k demo saws that I got for free and I traded them for some help working on my pickup truck to my buddy. I have been kickin myself for that shoulda traded just one.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 19, 2014)

OlympicYJ said:


> TS I gotta say I'm surprised there isn't a rigging shop nearby that can make cable straps with eyes. If they can do that then they can press dog knobs on if they had the knobs. You could go old school and babbitt em lol


i wish there was...........used to be alot more stuff around here..........was a place in delaware not long ago had a press that would make stuff if you had the slides..........he gone out to now.


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## OlympicYJ (Nov 19, 2014)

Ten4 . Over here in ID I'm like a fish out of water with the industrial supply. Closest stuff is Lewiston but even then I don't know who or where to even try looking. Back home I have great industrial supply options. It's just a lot of the residents could go away and I'd be happy.


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## john damps (Oct 15, 2015)

4x4American said:


> Looking to hear some opinions on logging with a dozer vs a skidder? gypo operation im talking about here. cant seem to find a decent skidder for my price range. theres an older d4 w/ hyster winch in pretty decent shape down the road for more my budget. The setbacks that I see are- 1: needs to be moved w/ a trailer always. 2: doesn't have log arch. 3: undercarriage can be expensive. 4: not as maneuverable as a skidder. Plusses I can see- 1: Will move wood for cheaper than a skidder. if undercarriage lasts me long enough that I've pulled enough wood to pay for itself and maybe some of the parts for it i'm happy. 2: better for building roads. 3: I can hire myself out as a dozer owner/op if need arises. 4: old cat dozers will go through hell and back, they are tried and true.
> 
> Thanks!


I have been skidding with a dozer for 40 years,[started with my uncle percy sowle]he had a td 15,also a 2 tiberjacks, now for the last 20 years I still skid with dozer, I have an 2012 john deere 650 110 hrs power, I don't run it hard but I put a lot of wood out when im logging,[I would rather skid with d-4-john deere 450-dresser td 8-9 they are smaller with plenty of power,and can be purchased cheaper on used market,i speced mine out new,i mainly use it for excavating,but I wish boght a 700lgp,they will move twice the dirt,the 700 out weights the 650 but the 650 has a ton of power and dosnt put it to the ground, the tracks spin to fast,anyway im logging with a friend with a 1984 cat 518 and he pulls some good turns,but im always cleaning up after him,i don't sink in and rut the roads up,if your just going to log try an older john deere-cat-tree farmer-clark-timberjack, many 15-25 year old skidders can be had for 8k-15k depending on year and condition,stay away from anything overworked-and abused, good luck-if you need a dozer dresser td 8 td9 cat d3 d4 john deere 450-550 or case 850,is good size,good power,


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