# elevating trees



## murphy4trees (Mar 10, 2003)

Tree Brothers,
Daniel murphy checking in on the subject of elevating or raising trees. This subject ame up earlier in the "pruning practices" thread.
http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=6521

In that thread I wrote about the many benefits that elevating can bring human/lanndscape interface. That is improve lighting, air circulation, lines of sight, headroom over paths etc.. Mike Maas and Tom D. argued strongly against elevating as a kneejerk reaction, performed by inferior arborists, and very damaging to the health of a tree. 

After taking some time to "look around" and observe trees, I have changed my position. What I have noticed is that trees left with their lower branches tend to be very healthy and vigorous. 

I still maintain that part of an arborists job is to solve people's tree problems, while doing as little harm to trees as possible. It will often then be required to remove lower branches over sidewalks, houses, driveways, etc... And after realizing what a dear price a tree pays for loosing its lower branches, I will look for other alternatives, before elevating. 

I hope this thread will bring a higher level of awareness to this issue and help make elevating a last resort, rather than an regular practice for many. You input is welcome here.... Do you regularly elevate trees? How do you handle a customer that wants all his/her trees elevated? etc..

I also have been thinking about why un-elevated trees are so much healthier and will share some thoughts on the subject later. What are your thoughts??

Here is a pic of a customer's front yard, taken last December. This is a $700,000 neighborhood.... hardly your average looking front yard for suburban Philadelphia, yet the trees are in excellent health... 

God Bless All,
Daniel

only part of the pic here got posted... the whole thing made it on the next post.


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## murphy4trees (Mar 10, 2003)

Try that pic again


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## murphy4trees (Mar 10, 2003)

Here is the other extreme... a pic in my neighborhood I just took yesterday... When the homeowner came out to see what I was up to, I told her I was going to post the pics on a website about improper pruning practices... Her reply "THAT'S IMPROPER???"
This once beautiful oak, looks more like an umbrella than a tree as it doesn't have a leaf below 25'.
Though the damage to this trees health is not immediately apparent, I believe that it won't be around much longer (in tree years).
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## murphy4trees (Mar 10, 2003)

Here's a close-up of that big wound... When I asked her why they removed the branch she said because "it was pulling away from the tree"..... OUCH.
God Bless All,
Daniel
Oops.. see pic below


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## murphy4trees (Mar 10, 2003)

This wound is 24"+ ... That hurts


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## ORclimber (Mar 13, 2003)

I too, now think twice before crown raising. But what sold it for me was the mass dampening theory. I still think urban trees are for the enjoyment of people whether they live 5 years or 500. So, I'll explain the downsides to the customer and if they still want it done, I might do it depending on the situation. I think there are too many variables to say all crown raising is bad. I have convinced a lot of people who want light, to crown raise their trees instead of topping them. 
A mature field grown tree is shorter and broader with branches to the ground than a forest tree. A mature tree that grew in a forest may not have a live branch 50+'. Which tree is healthier? They both reacted to their environment to survive.


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## underwor (Mar 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ORclimber _
> * A mature field grown tree is shorter and broader with branches to the ground than a forest tree. A mature tree that grew in a forest may not have a live branch 50+'. Which tree is healthier? They both reacted to their environment to survive. *



A dilema I am often faced with as a teacher. I tell my students the book methods, the traditional methods and show them what happens in nature. Then I ask if we are smarter than the tree and Mother Nature. Of course I also point out some of the alternatives that may be worse than doing nothing, such as the topping that you mentioned. If trees and people are to coexist, then there needs to be concessions made by both sides, but they may not be a one for one tradeoff. People should be able to adapt a little easier than the tree to sudden change. Education will never end.

My thoughts, Bob


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 13, 2003)

I'm pleased to hear that the forum has been used for sharing and accepting. The trees are grateful too 

In your picture you could start to thin out the cluster of sprouts at the base of the left tree. Try to make them look like limbs instead of a shrub. The tree can make small adjustments easier that what the oak in the following pics is forced to do. 

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 13, 2003)

I could never call what was done to that oak a crown raising . 

I've walked away from a number of jobs where it was required to remove entire large low lombs like that.

Betcha the gyu who did the work was pround of that nice collar cut. A good example of how a little knowledge can cause problems.

I advocate training trees to conform to thier landscapes future needs. That can be hard, but leaving all the low branches on a young tree will often become probelematic over time.

This is not just in spacial relationship to the structures and hardscape in the landscape, but with the branches relationship to each other and the rest of the tree. 

Each tree needs to be decided on it's own merits, structure and species habits. We need to help the customer make informed decisions as to the maintinace of their property. 

We each draw the line as to were we will not go. More and more the consesus of what is right is conforming to what is bioloficaly sound. 

Aside from leaving large wounds in trunks, where won't I (usualy) go? 

Large volume removals of the lower canopy in a single season. In most trees 60% of the dynamic mass is in the lower 33% of the crown.

Though I'm for heavy reductions on single large limbs.


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## NickfromWI (Mar 13, 2003)

for me personally, I like the look of trees with low, low limbs. Ever see the tree in the movie "The War" (Kevin Costner)? It is a huge oak somewhere in South Carolina (I think that's where it was) The low branches were practically right on the ground! I love that and I hate when clients want their trees "bottomed!" I understand that people need room to drive their cars and things like that....but nothing beats a nice, large, full, top-to-bottom tree.

love
nick


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## mikecross23 (Mar 13, 2003)

I probably shouldn't tell ya'll this for fear of gettin' stoned and lynched, but I drove by the property that I first started climbing and prunning at 6 years ago. It looks like CRAP!!! I never let on to be some experienced tree guy to this old man but he insisted on what he wanted done and I didn't know any better so I did it, gaffs and all. His trees look worse than most any I've ever seen. I will NEVER associate my name with that property. This old man called me back a few years in a row to prune his trees and every year wanted more and more cut. There used to be 3 beautiful live oaks and a 32" dbh water oak in his front yard. He had me remove the water oak and the live oaks are lion tailed to the tips. The trees have been raised so that they look like a dang hot air balloon. I am so embarrassed now that I know better, but he still thinks it look great. To bad there is disease creeping from the spike wounds on all of them. The man is in his 90's and going down hill. He will never notice the severity of trauma that I have inflicted upon his trees, but I gurantee the next owners probably will. I guess you have to start somewhere, but darn I'm embarrassed.  

-Mike-


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## mikecross23 (Mar 13, 2003)

Now it seems like every prunning estimate I give, I have to talk the customer into less and explain what is best for the tree.

Did I mention those trees look like crap?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 13, 2003)

Sometimes seeing the light can be blinding. I was lucky and did not have gaffs when I got out of the corps. Had to learn to do it the hard way...oh wait that's shimmying up the trunk, still can't do that.

I still enjoy getting on mu soapbox for homeowners, but it is harder these days, because I work for a number of different companies and sometimes I find myself slightly off message.

I gotta get some pictures of this crown rapeduction I did recently vs. a roundover retop 10 feet above the origional topjob. Everyone was happy but me. I did a seriouse dropcrotch on every stem on this silver maple.... Oh well, at least it was not a top, and I did not ahve to walk away from a job.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 13, 2003)

Mike,

It takes a lot to stand up and expose yourself to possible stoning. You're a big man for doing that. You feel better now? 

When I learned treework I topped, spiked and gutted. My boss' motto was "I'll cut the legs off your dining room table if you pay me." Good for the pocket book, bad for trees.

A while ago I read the best definition of a Hack, as a person who does substandard work and knows that the work is bad. The rest are just uneducated, I find that more forgiveable.

Tom


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## tophopper (Mar 13, 2003)

I too prefer not too have too raise trees. 
But you would walk from that tree? What if the homeowner had some specific reason as to remove that lead? of coarse we would all try to talk them out it but what if they insisted and they felt there reasoning for removing it was valid? would you still walk?

In Daniels post he mentions his client saying " because it was pulling away from the tree" ??? i dont know what that means exactley and I do agree this work was unnecesary. it sounds as if she was sold a load of $#$#@ a crew showed up and made the biggest white eye they could for maximum effect and scrammed. i agree hack work, but put the same tree in another setting, what ever the reason the homeowner is removing that limb-- is he hiring you , someone else or is he doing it himself.?
Are you still walking after 10-15 minutes of senseless head butting to save the limb?

just some food for thought


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tophopper _
> *
> Are you still walking after 10-15 minutes of senseless head butting to save the limb?
> 
> just some food for thought *



I have, when I was running a crew and selling work.

Now that I work for other people I have changed work specs because I was getting ready to walk after being told to do something I was nopt "comfortable" with.

Other times you cannot get the needed results without removing a large low limb. As long as the owner realizes that it may shorten the usefull life of the tree....


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## murphy4trees (May 23, 2003)

This one takes the prize so far
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## murphy4trees (May 23, 2003)

Here's a black walnut on an adjascent property..... that wound will never seal... I've got 3 oaks in the backyard with similar wounds... any suggestions besides water and organic fertilization??


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## Tom Dunlap (May 23, 2003)

Possibly a cable to support that right leader. But you already thought of that 

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2003)

Water by soil injection. Black walnut can oput on a lot of growth under the right conditions.

There is a bur oak near me that beats that, I've been driving by it for the past few years, and always gotta shake my head.


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## Bob Wulkowicz (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mikecross23 _
> 
> *Now it seems like every prunning estimate I give, I have to talk the customer into less and explain what is best for the tree.
> 
> Did I mention those trees look like crap? *





Perhaps, that's the direction of the New Arboriculture. Now, we have to figure out how to make money at it,



Bob Wulkowicz


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 24, 2003)

The way to make money a it is to charge well for the manhours and to increase the sale by tending other material on the property. Include the bushes, the smaller trees....

So many people are fixed on the per hour estimate and loose sight on making it for the day.

You need a target for the minimal amount you need for the day and if you are on the property for .5-.66 mandays, that is what you need to charge as a minimum. Try to get added proffit, but add as much value to the prospective customer as you can.

If it is in an area where you do a lot of work and can dig up a small job to fill the rest of the cost for the day, so be it, but otherwise you need to meet, or excseed, your budget every day of the week.

"Well Mrs. Smith, I need $XXX to be able to do the job, so I will add in the big Phitzer and the crabs...."


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