# Treated buckthorn stumps with Tordon now nearby hackberries dying



## lindnova (Jul 5, 2021)

Last December I cleared a bunch of buckthorn and treated the stumps with Tordon. I have 2 areas where there are hackberry trees that are thin or nearly dead. Some of these are 30" diameter and 80 ft tall mature trees. No other type of tree is showing any new distress where I treated (except the dutch elm and bur oak blight that was already there before I did anything). Anyone seen problems like this? These large trees are usually late to leaf out, but July? I think we have a problem. There are similar trees nearby where I didn't treat and they look fine, so pretty sure I did this. I wonder if they will pull through it. Drought now isn't helping.


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## SimpleScott (Jul 5, 2021)

I don't think those species are closely related so I don't anticipate them grafting roots. Was there a significant change in the amount of sunlight reaching the dripline / rooting area?


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## Raintree (Jul 5, 2021)

The label warns about using Tordon in the vicinity of desirable trees. Did you paint or spray?


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## lindnova (Jul 5, 2021)

SimpleScott said:


> I don't think those species are closely related so I don't anticipate them grafting roots. Was there a significant change in the amount of sunlight reaching the dripline / rooting area?


Yes the understory is opened up significantly without all the buckthorn.


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## lindnova (Jul 5, 2021)

Raintree said:


> The label warns about using Tordon in the vicinity of desirable trees. Did you paint or spray?


Painted only.


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## SimpleScott (Jul 5, 2021)

lindnova said:


> Yes the understory is opened up significantly without all the buckthorn.


I haven't had much experience with Celtis other than the younger trees we've planted but are they known to have roots sensitive to changes in soil temperatures? I know native Betula species are quite sensitive in that way


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## Raintree (Jul 5, 2021)

Treated stumps 360⁰ around the declining trees?


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## lindnova (Jul 5, 2021)

Raintree said:


> Treated stumps 360⁰ around the declining trees?


Yes. Random wherever the buckthorn was but generally the more stumps around them the worse they are.


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## Raintree (Jul 5, 2021)

Not much you can do at this point. It's why it's so important to read and understand labels. Tordon is a good tool when used properly. I would give the trees until next spring before deciding what to do with them.


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## lindnova (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks for the replies. I will definitely wait it out. I don’t usually cut trees in distress until they are all dead. We have 60 acres of woods. The elms grow and die and we have some bur oak blight that isn’t always fatal until it is. I think I have some oak wilt starting on pin oaks in the same area as we had years ago. Tough year. Haven’t seen pin oaks dying since a flare up in the early 90’s for a year then it went away after killing a large swath of trees. 
I know some of these hackberries are hollow and still habitat and some might end up using for lumber if dead.


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## ATH (Jul 5, 2021)

Late to the party...but yeah, Tordon certainly moves in the soil. I use plenty of Tordon...but only here and there, not quarts per acre. If I need that, I switch to Garlon


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## axeman088 (Jul 6, 2021)

I agree with ATH . Tordon definitely moves in the soil if used too much . If I use it on a small stump cut I make sure the stump cut is level and use the herbicide sparingly using a small brush and make sure it doesn't drip down the side of the stump. If I need to poison a large standing tree I use the injection method using a drill to make a slanted hole in the stem and then put the herbicide in the hole with a squirt bottle. I haven't tried the axe frill type of poisoning using a spray bottle but I am sure that works also.

I also found out the hard way about how Tordon can move through the soil . Luckily the neighboring trees or I should say bushes that died weren't that valuable.


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## lindnova (Jul 6, 2021)

I'll be honest I wasn't very careful about dribbling too much here and there as I have used Tordon the same for years and never had a problem around other tree types. I will be using glyphosphate to treat stumps next time I am near hackberry. 

Could be worse. I am really glad I did not use it near our 500+ year old record bur oak - I decided to keep mowing for maintenance there when I cleared out. I also chose not to treat the walnut stumps I am thinning in a seeded hardwood CRP. I asked our forester about using it on the stumps and he thought it would be ok. I am pretty cautious and decided against treating as the walnut roots certainly are grafted in close quarters - then went nuts in the woods and prairie clearing.....

I am sad that my favorite deer hunting woods will have good clear site for a year and then the undergrowth is going to come back with a vengence without the canopy shade. The same area has lost a few oaks and a lot of elms in the last few years (before I did any treating). Maybe I will cleanout and plant a mixed grove of hardwoods there for the next generation to enjoy. I have other areas I am trying to reestablish young bur and white oaks. They are disappearing and not regenerating very well here. We get 30 years of brush, then the box elder and cherries take over, then maybe oaks start to filter in, but the buckthorn is trouble for everything. So much work and diligence to keep up on clearing around them and maintain the grow tubes and like this year I am hauling water in dry spells. I am just doing a few areas that I can handle for now.


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## jacrider (Nov 30, 2022)

@lindnova : Wondering if you have an update a year later?

I am researching how to deal with a buckthorn infestation and have seen many recommendations that to effectively deal with mature trees to keep them from sprouting new growth, I will need to use a herbicide.

Thanks.


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## Bill G (Dec 5, 2022)

jacrider said:


> @lindnova : Wondering if you have an update a year later?
> 
> I am researching how to deal with a buckthorn infestation and have seen many recommendations that to effectively deal with mature trees to keep them from sprouting new growth, I will need to use a herbicide.
> 
> Thanks.


Tordon is the best option on cut stumps. You will not have regrowth issues.


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## AnniesDad (Dec 5, 2022)

Bill G said:


> Tordon is the best option on cut stumps. You will not have regrowth issues.


Except it might also kill nearby woody plants including trees


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## Bill G (Dec 5, 2022)

AnniesDad said:


> Except it might also kill nearby woody plants including trees


Well I have never had an issue with it killing not intended items. I see many folks use it improperly. Any herbicide used improperly can have unintended results.


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## Bill G (Dec 18, 2022)

So how has the situation worked out?


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## esean (Dec 25, 2022)

I like triclopyr 3 (Garlon 3) diluted 50/50 with water for cut-stump treatment. It's not absorbed through soil or translocated through root grafts to nearby plants.


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## Bill G (Dec 26, 2022)

esean said:


> I like triclopyr 3 (Garlon 3) diluted 50/50 with water for cut-stump treatment. It's not absorbed through soil or translocated through root grafts to nearby plants.


How well has it worked over a long period?


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## esean (Monday at 11:00 PM)

Sorry, haven't checked forum in a while. Triclopyr has killed every woody plant I've used it on, including privet, autumn olive, bush honeysuckle, red maple, japanese barberry and burning bush. Its definitely more effective than glyphosate. I don't have buckthorn here, but I'm guessing its listed for that too.


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## Bill G (Monday at 11:49 PM)

@pdqdl


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## computeruser (Tuesday at 10:44 AM)

Have had great results with triclopyr and glyphosate for cut stump treatment. Neither translocate in soil.


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## pdqdl (Tuesday at 12:50 PM)

esean said:


> I like triclopyr 3 (Garlon 3) diluted 50/50 with water for cut-stump treatment. It's not absorbed through soil or translocated through root grafts to nearby plants.



ALL herbicides applied to the soil will translocate. Some do what is called "adsorbed", which means that the herbicide becomes attached to soil particles in some way, and don't move around as much as others. The type of soil you have makes a big difference too. Highly organic soils generally hold on to herbicides better than sandy soil.

I'm not aware of any herbicides that are translocated through root grafting. If anybody has some hard information on that, I'd like to read it. It seems plausible, not not likely to be a problem. Diseases like oak wilt, however, are a definite problem. But that is because the pathogen is replicated in the new plant to become a disease.

Herbicide translocation through root grafts would require a massive transfer in order to be damaging to the receptive plant.

Most of the time when people think the herbicide has been translocated by water, root grafts, whatever, I think it is more often due to the fact that they just don't realize how far trees send out their little root fibers that do the absorption.


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## Bill G (Tuesday at 2:38 PM)

All herbicides when used improperly can have issues. When used properly they are a safe and effective method of undesirable plant growth.


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## Raintree (Tuesday at 3:23 PM)

I can remember watching a video a while back. In a grove of ailanthus trees they cut a high stump. Clamped a container of dye over the stump. Over time the dye was staining the sap wood of adjacent trees.
It might have been a fungicide study, can't recall.


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## Bill G (Tuesday at 9:12 PM)

Raintree said:


> I can remember watching a video a while back. In a grove of ailanthus trees they cut a high stump. Clamped a container of dye over the stump. Over time the dye was staining the sap wood of adjacent trees.
> It might have been a fungicide study, can't recall.


 I would love to see that video


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## pdqdl (Wednesday at 10:03 AM)

Raintree said:


> I can remember watching a video a while back. In a grove of ailanthus trees they cut a high stump. Clamped a container of dye over the stump. Over time the dye was staining the sap wood of adjacent trees.
> It might have been a fungicide study, can't recall.



Conceivably. But that doesn't sound like a fair test. If you clamped a bottle of Tordon 22k herbicide to that stump, I'll bet every tree downstream would be dead for at least a 100'. Maybe further.


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## Raintree (Wednesday at 11:11 AM)

pdqdl said:


> Conceivably. But that doesn't sound like a fair test. If you clamped a bottle of Tordon 22k herbicide to that stump, I'll bet every tree downstream would be dead for at least a 100'. Maybe further.


After thinking further about that video, it's been a while. I believe they were studying root grafting of the grove. The idea was to introduce a biological pathogen to control the invasive ailanthus. If I can remember correctly it might have been verticillium wilt.


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## ATH (Wednesday at 11:28 AM)

There is a verticillium wilt that is pretty specific to Ailanthus. _Verticillium nonalfalfae_


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## Syflan (Wednesday at 12:48 PM)

So that's what that stuff is!


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## Del_ (Wednesday at 1:00 PM)

Buckthorn and hackberry are not going to root graft so that method of transmission is not likely. Buckthorn (Rhamnus cathartica). Hackberry (Celtis occidentalis)

Buckthorn could possible leach tordon after they have died into the surrounding soil but with only 7 months between the application to the buckthorn and the noticed decline of the hackberry it is not likely.

My best guess is that the tordon applied to the buckthorn stumps was rain splashed or stump weeped into the surrounding soil and then absorbed from the soil by the hackberry root systems. 

Hackberry root grafted to other hackberry could also be adding to the tordon load that each hackberry is seeing. 

Over enthusiastic application of tordon to the buckthorn stumps could also be a factor.


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## pdqdl (Wednesday at 4:37 PM)

Raintree said:


> After thinking further about that video, it's been a while. I believe they were studying root grafting of the grove. The idea was to introduce a biological pathogen to control the invasive ailanthus. If I can remember correctly it might have been verticillium wilt.



That has developed into a great idea. Where do we buy our buckthorn specific pathogens?


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## ATH (Yesterday at 3:16 PM)

pdqdl said:


> That has developed into a great idea. Where do we buy our buckthorn specific pathogens?


Right here:


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## ATH (Yesterday at 3:22 PM)

Del_ said:


> Buckthorn and hackberry are not going to root graft so that method of transmission is not likely. Buckthorn (Rhamnus cathartica). Hackberry (Celtis occidentalis)
> 
> Buckthorn could possible leach tordon after they have died into the surrounding soil but with only 7 months between the application to the buckthorn and the noticed decline of the hackberry it is not likely.
> 
> ...


It is not at all uncommon to have stands where were Tordon was used and there is impact on off-target trees. Same stands, same applicator different herbicide= no off-target impacts observed. Over, and over, and over. It is not like people are using Tordon on rainy days and Garlon on dry days...or they use more of one than the other.

I agree it isn't likely root grafting (there is certainly natural grafting across genera, but not likely across families). But Tordon absolutely hits surrounding plants more than other herbicides.


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## Bill G (Yesterday at 3:26 PM)

ATH said:


> It is not at all uncommon to have stands where were Tordon was used and there is impact on off-target trees. Same stands, same applicator different herbicide= no off-target impacts observed. Over, and over, and over. It is not like people are using Tordon on rainy days and Garlon on dry days...or they use more of one than the other.
> 
> I agree it isn't likely root grafting (there is certainly natural grafting across genera, but not likely across families). But Tordon absolutely hits surrounding plants more than other herbicides.


What would you use on small stumps after removing the trees from grape vines.


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## ATH (Yesterday at 3:34 PM)

Probably Garlon (triclopyr) or glyphosate....check the labels. I'm more in tune with removing grapevines from trees...


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## pdqdl (Yesterday at 8:57 PM)

If you are talking about a vineyard removal of weed trees, I'd restrict that to glyphosate. Grapevines are too susceptible to the auxinic group of herbicides, of which Tordon and Tryclopyr are members.

"Grapevines are however several orders of magnitude more sensitive to injury from these products than other crops considered to be very sensitive such as tomatoes."​







Understanding and Recognizing Synthetic Auxin Damage in Grapes - Viticulture & Enology


By Jim Kamas (April 2017) What are Synthetic Auxin Herbicides Synthetic auxin herbicides are a broad group of related compounds originally designed to eliminate broadleaf weeds in monocotyledonous crops such as wheat, rice and other cereal grains. They are also commonly used to manage broadleaf...




aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu



​Basically: don't do it with Tordon or tryclopyr if you can avoid it.

"In Washington state, drift from grain growing regions to the east has been documented to have caused damage to vineyards along the Columbia River, *50 miles away from the point of application*."


That being said, it seems that the more volatile of the auxins are causing the commonly observed drift problems with grapes.


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## ATH (Yesterday at 9:09 PM)

@pdqdl was that drift or volatilization? I't guess it volatilized. Dicamba? 2, 4-d?

Garlon 4 will certainly volatilize, but isn't used in grain production.


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## Bill G (Yesterday at 10:12 PM)

ATH said:


> @pdqdl was that drift or volatilization? I't guess it volatilized. Dicamba? 2, 4-d?
> 
> Garlon 4 will certainly volatilize, but isn't used in grain production.


I am referring to cut stump treatment.


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## pdqdl (Yesterday at 10:29 PM)

ATH said:


> @pdqdl was that drift or volatilization? I't guess it volatilized. Dicamba? 2, 4-d?
> 
> Garlon 4 will certainly volatilize, but isn't used in grain production.



I'd say that it had to be volatilization, as any drifting water droplets would surely evaporate or settle by the time it went 50 miles. 

I can't be sure, I just quoted what was in the linked articles. They identified the guilty herbicides as more volatile, so I would guess something like 2,4,5-T ester. Very hot to undesirable plants,very volatile.


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## Bill G (Yesterday at 11:38 PM)

ATH said:


> @pdqdl was that drift or volatilization? I't guess it volatilized. Dicamba? 2, 4-d?
> 
> Garlon 4 will certainly volatilize, but isn't used in grain production.


What are the differences between Garlon 3 and Garlon 4 as related to cut stump treatment in the dormant period?. I have read some interesting opinions from weed scientists but I would prefer the opinion of real life experience


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## ATH (Yesterday at 11:54 PM)

I cannot say I've noticed big differences in efficacy...

Garlon 4 probably works a little better if there is some delay between cutting and treating as it will penetrate the bark better. It can actually be mixed with an oil carrier and sprayed on the bark killing plants without cutting anything. It stays liquid at lower temperatures as well.

Garlon 3 is labeled for use in wetlands - which is why I started using it...we were using 4 for everything but had some stumps to treat in wetland areas so picked up the 3.

Even with cut stump treatment, if you are putting that on in warmer temps (over 80 degrees), you risk volatilization with Garlon 4 - which could impact other plants. Much lower risk of that with Garlon 3 (never say no risk!) Garlon 3 does require an applicator's license (but so does anything I'm applying professionally). My understanding is that is because it can damage eyes more readily.


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## Bill G (Today at 12:32 AM)

What concentration/mixture are you using each at for cut stump treatment. I have heard all types of mixes and carriers. Lots of opinions and all have merit. Of course some say water others say diesel while some use nitrogen or crop oil. Are you using 2-4-D with it also? I am strictly asking about cut stump treatment in winter. 

As for a applicators license that is not an issue. I have had my license since they were required and that was in the 1980's.


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