# Advice on falling dead Pine



## crammit442 (Jun 6, 2020)

I need some advice from experienced fallers on dropping a dead pine here in Alabama. It needs to be done fairly soon, but isn't a crisis. I don't have pics right now, but can put some up tomorrow. It's probably 18-20" dbh and 55-60 ft tall. It's dead enough to have lost most of it's bark and limbs. It isn't leaning heavily and there's a pretty wide safe falling zone. As long as it goes where I need it for 15 or 20 degrees it'll be contained by healthy mature trees. If it were to sit back it could possibly get a powerline. There aren't enough limbs to catch a line very high to possibly help steer it. I can get a line 30ish ft up with a ladder. I'm guessing there isn't much quality holding wood left. I'm concerned that anything more than bit of line tension on it could cause it to snap off early. If I cut it I'll be using an MS-261. I just don't want to do anything that might cause it to do something exciting or anything else that I should particularly watch out for? I do more bucking downed trees than falling and just want to make sure I don't miss something that should probably be obvious. If it wasn't so completely dead I'd be more comfortable with it. I'm definitely willing to decide to punt if I get there and get bad vibes. Thanks in advance!


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 6, 2020)

Hi, without pics and using your description, have you thought about putting that line where you said and then take just a little tension, then, make a small back cut enough to pull it over without it breaking up top?
Jeff


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## old CB (Jun 6, 2020)

Pics will help.

You said the tree "isn't leaning heavily." Does it have lean at all? In the direction you intend to drop it? If it is leaning that way, you should not fear it sitting back on you. However, don't count on lean unless it's there. Get a plumb-line and sight from one side to determine whether it has lean. Actually, a spar--which is kind of what you've described, mostly trunk with limbs gone--a spar can be surprisingly resistant to falling.

If you can get a line 30' up, that will probably be sufficient to pull with. And if it snaps off prematurely in the direction you're pulling and want it to go . . . what's wrong with that?

However, without seeing what you describe any advice from myself or others could be offset by issues we're not aware of. Get pics.


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## lone wolf (Jun 6, 2020)

I would not want to be standing under a rotten Pine tree with a helper of unknown skill is pulling it. Just put a rope on it high up with a throw line then snap the tree by pulling from a safe distance if it is that rotten,dont even cut it and it will still break.
If you think it will hit a powerline dont do it at all.


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

I'll try to add a few more pics that better show the landing zone, but my Dad took these at the lake today. I'm not sure how to fix it, but if you can rotate the pics 90° they show things in better perspective The arrows are the rough falling direction. The power lines in the foreground are NOT a problem. The ones highlighted in the background are the ones I mentioned could be hit if the tree were to sit back and go completely backwards. It's also probably actually 75-80 ft tall. I haven't plumbed it, but the pics look appear to show a slight lean in the desired direction. It doesn't show well, but the zone is actually quite clear. There are also more places to snag a throw line further up than I thought so I should be able to get one in it. I feel a good bit better about it looking at the pics. My real hesitation is that it's dead. I'll try to get a couple more pics tomorrow. Thanks again.

P


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## Mad Professor (Jun 7, 2020)

Looks too have some sort of vines growing near the top. If they are thick enough and holding to other trees it could get ugly with the top snapping off


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> Looks too have some sort of vines growing near the top. If they are thick enough and holding to other trees it could get ugly with the top snapping off



It has vines in the top, but they're not entangled with any other trees. I'll definitely double check though. Thanks


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## Cobus (Jun 7, 2020)

Don’t make a very deep face cut. Start your back cut slip a wedge or 2 in just barely holding until you get further into the tree. Still leave hang wood in the more desired direction to help pull it more away from the power line zone. Get your plum find your escape and use your wedges. Dead trees don’t have tons of pull with hang wood as live but they do have some. Just take your time and always watch the tree if you see your wedge fall off, your tree is tipping in the direction you want.


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## old CB (Jun 7, 2020)

For a skilled feller, wedges would probably be sufficient. But a pull rope properly set and tensioned is called for here.

To the OP: set your rope about 2/3 the height of the tree, tension it with a come-along to an anchor tree roughly in the direction of fall, and be very careful to prepare a good hinge (holding wood). Your rope must be sufficiently strong for the task. Unless you feel confident that you can do all this and do it right, leave the job to someone who can.

It looks to me like part of the challenge is getting a throwline high enough to reach a limb or stub.


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## The Lorax (Jun 7, 2020)

IF I had to do this I'd be inclined to make a small humboldt with a snipe to let it frop to the ground and bore cut leaving plenty of hinge wood if it is able to hinge in that state.
Start applying a pressure and just trip the back cut and run away.
My primary concern is that the tree is tall and there are lots of places for it to get snagged and hung up in, its not an easy drop when you combine the state of the tree and proximity to lines and houses.
Is there some cable or rope already in that tree? It looks like there is something hanging out of it.


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

old CB said:


> For a skilled feller, wedges would probably be sufficient. But a pull rope properly set and tensioned is called for here.
> 
> To the OP: set your rope about 2/3 the height of the tree, tension it with a come-along to an anchor tree roughly in the direction of fall, and be very careful to prepare a good hinge (holding wood). Your rope must be sufficiently strong for the task. Unless you feel confident that you can do all this and do it right, leave the job to someone who can.
> 
> It looks to me like part of the challenge is getting a throwline high enough to reach a limb or stub.



I agree that for safety, a line needs to be in the tree. I feel a little better about being able to get a throw line around a stub higher up after seeing the pictures. I'm also completely willing with walking away from it if I don't feel confident that I can do it safely. Thanks for your thoughts.


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

The Lorax said:


> IF I had to do this I'd be inclined to make a small humboldt with a snipe to let it frop to the ground and bore cut leaving plenty of hinge wood if it is able to hinge in that state.
> Start applying a pressure and just trip the back cut and run away.
> My primary concern is that the tree is tall and there are lots of places for it to get snagged and hung up in, its not an easy drop when you combine the state of the tree and proximity to lines and houses.
> Is there some cable or rope already in that tree? It looks like there is something hanging out of it.



I also thought that a Humboldt might be the desired face cut, thinking it would encourage the tree to drop down and forward as it comes off the stump. If I used a standard face cut it would be because I can better see and more accurately place the angled cut mostly because the tree is small enough that I need to get it right the first time so I don't cut it too deep. The first time I saw a picture of the tree I also thought there was already a line in it too, but it's just a long leg of the vine in the top of the tree. The possible snags look worse than they are. I would have done this a few months ago before the trees greened up, but there was a pontoon boat on blocks for the winter right in the landing zone. Hopefully I can get some pictures that better show the corridor where it needs to fall. I've read about and watched lots of more advanced face cuts, but I'm not comfortable practicing on this particular tree. I've cut mostly downed/storm damage trees and have become pretty good at reading tension and compression loads. While that's plenty hazardous, it's rarely a danger to nearby structures. I really appreciate all the input so far. I'll try to get a couple more pictures up later today.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 7, 2020)

Can you climb a nearby tree high enough? 
Jeff


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

jefflovstrom said:


> Can you climb a nearby tree high enough?
> Jeff



That's definitely a possibility. I just talked to my brother who's up there now and he feels confident that there are enough limbs stubs to catch a throw line. The pics are a little deceptive in that the nearby trees aren't actually that close. I should have a couple more pics shortly. Thanks!


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## crammit442 (Jun 7, 2020)

Here are a few more pictures that hopefully better show the lane I have for dropping the tree. The power lines in the foreground are not the ones I'm concerned about, although they will be de energized while I'm working. I'm not going to do anything today because it's blowing pretty good up there.


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## The Lorax (Jun 7, 2020)

It looks a little better from that angle, If you leave a reasonably high stump say 3ft or so, put in your Humboldt and then cut another steeper angle from the outer 1/3 of the face cut downwards it will encourage the tree to drop off the stump once the face closes.
I would think that jarring movement would also help the tree break up and reduce the risk of the branches hanging up.
Its hard to judge just how sound or unsound the wood is from a screen.


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## crammit442 (Jun 9, 2020)

The Lorax said:


> It looks a little better from that angle, If you leave a reasonably high stump say 3ft or so, put in your Humboldt and then cut another steeper angle from the outer 1/3 of the face cut downwards it will encourage the tree to drop off the stump once the face closes.
> I would think that jarring movement would also help the tree break up and reduce the risk of the branches hanging up.
> Its hard to judge just how sound or unsound the wood is from a screen.



Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!


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## The Lorax (Jun 9, 2020)

crammit442 said:


> Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!


If putting a few ratchets around the tree makes you feel better then I would.
High stumping it is no different to regular but the length of fall is reduced by the length of the higher stump.
Only difference is that if the butt end hits the ground hard it may break the top of the tree off and the tree might shatter if its really bad.
I wouldn't go near a snag like that if there is any wind, its not worth it.
Bring an axe and bang the trunk to check for soundness before making any cuts.
Good luck.


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## arathol (Jun 9, 2020)

crammit442 said:


> Thanks again for all the input. Are there any hazards associated with cutting at 3 ft or so? It's been wet and windy for several days and is supposed to be through Wednesday. Depending on the weather, I may try to cut it Thursday or Friday. When I do go, I'm going with every intention of cutting the tree. That said, unless I feel good about it once I'm on site, I'll walk away with no shame at all. I don't think this tree is likely to chair, but should I put a few ratchets for the first ten or twelve feet up the tree to help keep it together until it falls? At the risk of jinxing myself, I probably will get video or at least pics of the process to show here when I finish. Thanks again!


The problem isn't likely to be a barber chair. If its stone dead and dried out, it may not fall as you would expect when doing any sort of normal felling cut. In fact, it may not fall over at all if the wood in the hinge is dry and brittle. Wood in a long dead pine tree doesn't bend much at all, it just snaps like a match stick. Don't be tempted to keep cutting the hinge smaller to get it to go, that may be a recipe for failure. If you have a rope on the tree, when you try to pull it over it could very easily just snap off at the hinge and fall in any direction. Or, it may snap off anywhere between the roots and where the rope is tied once pressure is applied. If that happens, the top could come down in pieces, raining wood all over the place....not good. Or, it may just fall exactly where you want it to. Dead trees like this can be very unpredictable. You need to be very careful with something like this....
One other thing to note- that tree might be full of borers and other insects, making it even more unstable. All that bark laying in piles looks like the work of pileated wood peckers. They strip off large pieces like that to expose the bugs under it.


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## crammit442 (Jun 10, 2020)

arathol said:


> The problem isn't likely to be a barber chair. If its stone dead and dried out, it may not fall as you would expect when doing any sort of normal felling cut. In fact, it may not fall over at all if the wood in the hinge is dry and brittle. Wood in a long dead pine tree doesn't bend much at all, it just snaps like a match stick. Don't be tempted to keep cutting the hinge smaller to get it to go, that may be a recipe for failure. If you have a rope on the tree, when you try to pull it over it could very easily just snap off at the hinge and fall in any direction. Or, it may snap off anywhere between the roots and where the rope is tied once pressure is applied. If that happens, the top could come down in pieces, raining wood all over the place....not good. Or, it may just fall exactly where you want it to. Dead trees like this can be very unpredictable. You need to be very careful with something like this....
> One other thing to note- that tree might be full of borers and other insects, making it even more unstable. All that bark laying in piles looks like the work of pileated wood peckers. They strip off large pieces like that to expose the bugs under it.


I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten. It's interesting that you mention wood peckers. There are actually a lot of them up there. I normally see some really small ones, but there are also some that are are probably 2/3 the size of a crow. It's pretty quiet there during the week and I always hear/see them. I guess I'm going to go up and knock the bark off at the cutting area and sound the tree with my axe before going any further. It needs to come down sooner than later, but I'm not committing to cutting it until I decide whether I can do it safely. If I don't feel comfortable I'm going to go ahead and tell the family to call the man.


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## JTM (Jun 10, 2020)

Sorry, can’t resist replying. I would never fell a tree like that other than its direction of lean only. It’s a hazard tree. Roping and/or wedging you’re asking for the top to come out on your head. Top will still probably break off.


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## ATpro (Jun 10, 2020)

Been there and done those, what to look out for is the widow makers from above. Any movement and the dead limbs or top will pop off first you don't want to be under there when that happens. We tie a pull rope as high as we can reach and put just a little pressure on the rope just to hold the tree, cut the base about 1/2 way through and then everybody get out of the way and give it a good pull. A lot of times the top will pop off as it comes down. Depending on how big the tree is will determine if a front cut is needed. When preparing fire lanes we always removed the dead torch trees that could pose a danger. We did a lot of them with a four wheeler and some times a block & tackle or skid steer. The main thing is don't be under the tree when it moves, this is not felling a tree this is pulling it down with no one in a danger zone. Whatever you do don't beat on it with an axe, it may sound solid at the butt but that's not the problem it's the widow makers at the top; The longer you wait the more danger. It's best the cut them when you see the pine needles turn brown and still on the tree.Sometimes it's best to just let it fall natural, I've seen big trees just melt away from the top down but that was where there was no danger to anyone where it was. Once the bark starts slipping like those you can bet the top is ready to pop out.


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## crammit442 (Jun 10, 2020)

Wow! Two consecutive replies from Alabama. I've done a lot of (rock) climbing at Sand Rock and Griffin Falls up past Gadsden. No need to apologize for giving your thoughts. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm careful and do lots of thinking before I do things, but I know there are a number of of factors with trees that aren't necessarily instinctual. The tree is at Lake Martin near Central/Eclectic. I'm taking in everything said here and appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. Thanks again!
Charles

P.S. If either of you run out of fun things to do and want to come supervise, don't hesitate to PM me.


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## ATpro (Jun 10, 2020)

Many things can affect the Pine, lighting, Bark Beetles and such. What it looks like you have is called the Lps Beetle, Ips is a genus of _beetles_ in the family Curculionidae, the true weevils. They are bark _beetles_, members of the subfamily Scolytinae.
They kill the tree from the top down in a slow process which may take months. You will see one tree start dying from the top then maybe another some distance will start dying. It may be a random affect with trees here and there or a plot where all the trees die. They are not like an infestation of Southern Pine Beetles where the whole tree will fire up in a short time.
They can live in your forest for years killing a number of trees each year but rest assure they are just as destructive as the Southern Pine Beetle because they seem to pick the best and before you get alarmed they may kill 30% of your pine forest a little each year.
Anytime you see a tree start to die from the top you should cut it down and burn it all. It's dead you can bet because it is already infested and has eggs already laid in the bark. This action will slow down an infestation.

If you are seeing only Short Leaf Pines it's probably short leaf disease (Little Leaf). _Littleleaf disease develops when P. cinnamomi, a fungal-like organism (specifically, a water mold), infects the fine roots of susceptible southern pine trees. Symptoms of the disease can be misdiagnosed as nutritional deficiencies or may appear as the after effects of bark beetle attack. Well drained soil shouldn't pose a problem with short leaf disease. The only way to know is inspect the bark for galleries for eggs or clear signs of infestation if you suspect Bark Beetles. _


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## crammit442 (Jun 10, 2020)

ATpro said:


> Many things can affect the Pine, lighting, Bark Beetles and such. What it looks like you have is called the Lps Beetle, Ips is a genus of _beetles_ in the family Curculionidae, the true weevils. They are bark _beetles_, members of the subfamily Scolytinae. They kill the tree from the top down in a slow process which may take months. You will see one tree start dying from the top then maybe another some distance will start dying. It may be a random affect with trees here and there or a plot where all the trees die. They are not like an infestation or Southern Pine Beetles where the whole tree will fire up in a short time. They can live in your forest for years killing a number of trees each year but rest assure they are just as distructive as the Southern Pine Beetle because they seem to pick the best and before you get alarmed they may kill 30% of your pine forest a little each year. Anytime you see a tree start to die from the top you should cut it down and burn it all. It's dead you can bet because it is already infested and has eggs already laid in the bark. This action will slow down an infestation.


Thanks for the information. It definitely looks like it died from the top down. Once it's on the ground will I be able to see the damage confirming the cause? I didn't see anything that looked like a lightning strike. Thanks again.


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## ATpro (Jun 10, 2020)

crammit442 said:


> Thanks for the information. It definitely looks like it died from the top down. Once it's on the ground will I be able to see the damage confirming the cause? I didn't see anything that looked like a lightning strike. Thanks again.


You should be able to look at the bark and tree and see the feeding tunnels in the phloem/_cambium layer_. It will still be evident even if the bark that has slipped. Remember, once the tree is dead the bugs will move on to greener pastures and to idenify what bug it is you need to find active bug infestation in a tree that hasn't died completely. You can look for fine sawdust at the base of the tree, that's what you find most with Southern Pine Beetles, Lps Beetles are often mistaken for the southern pine bark beetle because their appearance and damage are similar. Their gallery patterns tend to be more parallel to each other.
Even if the tree shows no signs of bark beetles one can look at the Bark and if you see little holes like it has been shot with a load of shot from a shotgun, if so it's been infested with a form of Bark Beetle. If the tree is in good condition and not stressed it may push the beetle out with the sap. When you see Sap from many holes pushing out you know the tree has been attacked but the tree may have won the battle. That's the reason Long Leaf Pine is more durable and resistant to Bark Beetles because of the sap content and abundance they produce.

At my age managing a forest for a new generation to cut is out of the question so when I cut planted loblolly Pine stands on my land I replace them with Long Leaf, this way I can manage the land for wildlife better and still grow productive saw timber for the next generation after me. You can burn Long leaf much sooner and reduce fuel load and provide a better habitat for wildlife at the same time and Long leaf love fire.


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## crammit442 (Jun 10, 2020)

ATpro said:


> You should be able to look at the bark and tree and see the feeding tunnels in the phloem/_cambium layer_. It will still be evident even it the bark that has slipped. Remember, once the tree is dead the bugs will move on to greener pastures and to idenify what bug it is you need to find active bug infestation in a tree that hasn't died completely. You can look for fine sawdust at the base of the tree, that's what you find most with Southern Pine Beetles, Lps Beetles are often mistaken for the southern pine bark beetle because their appearance and damage are similar. Their gallery patterns tend to be more parallel to each other.


I looked up the Lps Beetle after your last post. There sure are LOTS of things going on with trees that would take years to learn. After a lot of thinking about this tree, I've pretty much decided to tell the family to call a real arborist, especially since the same thing may be happening to other trees in the area. I actually feel relatively confident that I could safely get the tree down and I probably would if it was in an open area and could be felled in any direction. We have a kitty to pay for things like this and there's no shame in walking away. I really appreciate all the input from you and everyone else about this. I've learned a lot in the last week here. I really enjoy my saw and cutting, but I think the risks outweigh the money saved. I'll update this thread when I have any new information. Thanks again!

Charles


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## Jkstihl (Jun 15, 2020)

Where you at? I’m in huntsville. I wouldn’t mind coming to help.


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## Jkstihl (Jun 15, 2020)

Jkstihl said:


> Where you at? I’m in huntsville. I wouldn’t mind coming to help.



Just read the whole thread and realized your in eclectic, little far for me. But good luck.


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## crammit442 (Jun 15, 2020)

Jkstihl said:


> Just read the whole thread and realized your in eclectic, little far for me. But good luck.


I know what you mean. I jump in a couple of ski tournaments in Huntsville every summer and the ride home always seems to take forever. If you get bored or curiosity gets the better of you please let me know.


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## crammit442 (Jul 5, 2020)

Well, the tree was dead enough that with all the family and kids up there, it had to come down before someone got drilled in the head from falling pieces. I decided to use a come along to gently tension it. I got an average size Humboldt in the face and then went to the back cut. The ideal landing was about a foot to the right of the 4 x 4 in the pictures. It was probably the only completely clear corridor to fall without damage to other trees. I palmed a couple of wedges in as soon as I got the back cut started and lightly tapped them in as the cut got deeper. I cut as far as I thought safe and turned the saw off. A few taps on the wedges and it slowly started to go and to my surprise, landed EXACTLY where I'd hoped it would. The Humboldt worked well and pushed it forward off the stump just before the top landed so it was a soft landing. You can really tell how dead it is by the picture with the guy standing with a 7 foot piece over his shoulder. It only weighed 100 lbs or so. Thanks again for all the suggestions and cautions. Im not sure if I was lucky or good, but everything said here was echoing in my head as we set everything up yesterday. I'll try to get some close ups of the tree to see if anyone can identify the exact beetle/infestation that killed it. It measured 84'. Thanks again!
Charles


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## The Lorax (Jul 5, 2020)

Looks like there was still some half reasonable hinge wood there, seems to have pulled some good sized fibres out
Congrats on the successful falling. Always a good feeling when things come off well.


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## crammit442 (Jul 5, 2020)

The Lorax said:


> Looks like there was still some half reasonable hinge wood there, seems to have pulled some good sized fibres out
> Congrats on the successful falling. Always a good feeling when things come off well.


I couldn't believe there was actually still any hinge wood. The face cut was like wet cardboard. The first several inches in the back cut were really soft also, but felt healthier as I got deeper. My back cut had a bit of a slope, but was still above the face. I normally cut downed trees up rather than cutting trees down, so it was cool to see things go pretty close to as planned. Thanks again.
Charles


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