# Tricks to felling small diameter trees?



## Billy_Bob (Jul 13, 2008)

I have a bunch of small diameter maple trees (6 to 10 inches) I need to fell, and am wondering how exactly I would go about getting these to fall opposite their natural leaning direction if necessary?

They are all in a line along a road out in the middle of nowhere, so no problem with them hitting anything. That is except hitting the next tree in line and getting hung up. (A few of these trees are leaning "forwards" towards the next tree in line.) So they can fall left, right, or backwards, but not forwards. 

(I'm used to the large diameter trees we have around here.)

So can I get a small diameter tree to fall the opposite direction of its natural lean? Or is this a job for the bucket truck folks? (Cut away some limbs up top first, use ropes, etc.)


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## toddstreeservic (Jul 13, 2008)

ladder and a rope


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## smokechase II (Jul 13, 2008)

*reverse order*

You might be able to drop some of them without the rope effort by doing the back-cut first, establish a wedge, then face, then wedge them over.


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## Husky137 (Jul 13, 2008)

Make a shallow face cut, start the back cut enough to get a wedge started, but not far enough to let the tree sit back. Bore in from the side,setting your hinge, and then cut back to the wedge. Give the wedge a few whacks and over it will go. 6" trees should almost be able to push them over with your hand.


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## Gologit (Jul 13, 2008)

I watched some guys on a thinning job awhile back. They'd make a small face, start the back cut and when there was room they'd jam a small prybar in the cut and pop it over. Some guys used their foot, some guys just used their hands. They were working by the piece and volume counted. Seemed to work pretty good for them...they put a lot of wood down that way.


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## forestryworks (Jul 13, 2008)

the shorter wedges work good in the small diam. stuff

although those 5" wedges get lost in the shuffle a little
easier than the 10" and up sized wedges


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 13, 2008)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=23294&page=3

This is a video from Ekka showing how he does a quarter cut!
real easy when you see how!
Ive used it on 2 Scots pines and it worked a treat!


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## ak4195 (Jul 13, 2008)

Husky137 said:


> Make a shallow face cut, start the back cut enough to get a wedge started, but not far enough to let the tree sit back. Bore in from the side,setting your hinge, and then cut back to the wedge. Give the wedge a few whacks and over it will go. 6" trees should almost be able to push them over with your hand.



Depends on the height of course,since the tree is like a lever.Generally though you should be able to grunt them over,might even just need a slash cut,leave a strap of wood on the front(direction you want to push to).
Of course the tool of choice would be a pike pole,but a one time job kinda puts the kybosh on buying one.Any ROW contractors in your area that you could possibly borrow/rent from.Used properly you can take a fair amount of tree over with a pike pole,and very quick once your helper gets into a rhythm.Use it enough and youll have forearms and shoulders like popeye,as they weigh about 35-40 lbs and are about 14' long or so.
I like that pry bar idea,one more tool for the tool bag i guess.

ak4195


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## Bushler (Jul 13, 2008)

I second Smokechase's method.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 14, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> You might be able to drop some of them without the rope effort by doing the back-cut first, establish a wedge, then face, then wedge them over.



I like this idea too! And of course the saw would not bind on the face cut as the tree would be leaning the other way.

So far as "pushing the tree over with your hand", well Duhhhh!!! Why didn't I think of that? Of course I could do that!
(I would not think of that because you can't do that with the typical large trees around here.)

Where do I get small wedges? All the wedges sold around here are around 11 inches long. (Trees I will be felling are 6 to 10 inches in diameter.)


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## forestryworks (Jul 14, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> Where do I get small wedges? All the wedges sold around here are around 11 inches long. (Trees I will be felling are 6 to 10 inches in diameter.)



this is the shortest wedge i've found

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=15334&catID=


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## Humptulips (Jul 14, 2008)

I third smokechases method. 
If you put a face in first it doesn't leave enough holding wood to support the tree to get the wedge in. Back cut,put the wedge in and set the tree up then a small face cut.


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## redlaker (Jul 15, 2008)

I picked up a half dozen of those 5.5" wedges from baileys and they have been great, in fact I wrote the review on them on the site. we just don't have the size of timber that requires the big wedges for the most part.. they don't double up as nice as the long ones but you can still do it. definitely something to try if you are felling lots of smaller timber.


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## Rick Alger (Jul 15, 2008)

Make the face cut. From the front of the face cut bore through the middle of the hinge straight out the back of the tree. Then bore a back cut. Leave plenty of hinge wood on both sides of the hinge and a holding strap. Drive a wedge in tight from the back. Cut the holding strap. Have a push pole handy in case the tree needs a bit more persuasion.


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 15, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> I third smokechases method.
> If you put a face in first it doesn't leave enough holding wood to support the tree to get the wedge in. Back cut,put the wedge in and set the tree up then a small face cut.



I re-read most of my Douglas Dent book (Professional Timber Falling) last night and darned if he doesn't mention falling small trees! And he suggests smokechase's method too!

This is briefly mentioned on page 95 (chapter V - Variations of the Basic Face) in my book. This is just before he discusses using hydraulic jacks in the backcut to get a tree to fall the right direction...


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## abohac (Jul 15, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> I have a bunch of small diameter maple trees (6 to 10 inches) I need to fell, and am wondering how exactly I would go about getting these to fall opposite their natural leaning direction if necessary?
> 
> They are all in a line along a road out in the middle of nowhere, so no problem with them hitting anything. That is except hitting the next tree in line and getting hung up. (A few of these trees are leaning "forwards" towards the next tree in line.) So they can fall left, right, or backwards, but not forwards.
> 
> ...



Why don't you make a small notch and push them over? Or are they really leaning the wrong way?


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## Billy_Bob (Jul 16, 2008)

abohac said:


> Why don't you make a small notch and push them over? Or are they really leaning the wrong way?



Actually it is a long row of small trees along a road. I have not closely examined them, but from a brief look, many are "aimed" the right direction and a few are "aimed" the wrong direction.

I will do this one tree at a time. I think most will be no problem, but I'm sure there will be a few difficult trees. Some may have their branches interlocked with the tree next to it. If this is the case and I don't feel safe falling some of these, I'll leave it for the bucket truck folks.

At this point I feel comfortable with the backwards leaners. But I'm not going to mess with several trees which have their branches tied up together. I've read how to do this and that is to fall several trees at once or the "domino" thing. But I'm not comfortable doing that.

BTW it will be awhile before I have time to get to these trees (and the land owner wants some cut this year and more next year - no hurry), so plenty of time to discuss this...


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 16, 2008)

Has no one checked out Ekka's Quarter cut video?
He did another vid where he dropped 3 trees at the same time as the branches were interlocked all with the quarter cut method

First he does a normal notch then starts the back cut just like normal but only cutting quarter of the tree! then bangs in a wedge
then he cuts the other quarter of the back cut but aims the saw slightly above the first cut so that there is an overlap bangs in another wedge and its job done.
It works well in the small stuff

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=23294&page=3


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## ropensaddle (Jul 16, 2008)

That qualifies as brush to me and many options exist but
one way I have done similar work is; I make back cuts and stop before
pinching saw on all of the trees. Then I will take my winch and circle
them and hook back into the cable or truck and winch them all over at once!
This leaves them all one direction.


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## abohac (Jul 16, 2008)

Billy_Bob said:


> Actually it is a long row of small trees along a road. I have not closely examined them, but from a brief look, many are "aimed" the right direction and a few are "aimed" the wrong direction.
> 
> I will do this one tree at a time. I think most will be no problem, but I'm sure there will be a few difficult trees. Some may have their branches interlocked with the tree next to it. If this is the case and I don't feel safe falling some of these, I'll leave it for the bucket truck folks.
> 
> ...


I don't know. I'm not as confident as some of the guys that I read in this forum so if there is a chance of things going wrong I usually hook a cable and make sure things go my way but I'm kind of a chicken when it come to this stuff (however I'm still alive). Sound like maybe you can use some of your good trees to knock over some of the others (notch'em, small back cut and let a good tree knock it down). I do that alot and works pretty well for me. This has backfired on me a couple of times where I ended up with two hangers.


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## toddstreeservic (Jul 17, 2008)

funny story: In college for silviculture class we were all assigned a .10 acre plot in the woods. We went out, measured it and wrote up a mangement plan, then went out and cut what we proposed. Well we were out in the field and this guy hung a tree, the skidder was way on the other side of the parcel so the prof takes the students saw and drops another tree onto the first and that hangs, then he drops another onto it and hangs it. Finally he drops a third one onto it and they all fall down. Prof shuts off the saw, looks up, and says "man that sure opens things up!" " be sure and write that in your report." I think the guy had 1 tree left in his .10 acre plot.


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## smokechase II (Jul 23, 2008)

*Some thoughts*

The quarter cut method, cutting half the back-cut - inserting wedge snug, then doing the rest of the back-cut - perhaps just slightly above or below to avoid wedge damage, is the best technique for the smallest trees that cannot be regular face and back-cut then pushed by hand. This could be 5" - 10" dbh. There is a sliding scale here regarding height weight lean quality of wood etc.

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The back-cut first works generally best on trees perhaps 7" - 16". 

-------------------

You might want to consider a boring back-cut on the trees that are big enough. I would recommend this variation to the common methodology of leaving a strap - then wedging off set from the side - releasing the strap then wedging over.
Just tap that wedge in snug, finish the cuts needed - then insert the wedge that will be driving the tree over directly from the rear would be appropriate for a 180 fall. Wedging from the side or angled is inefficient and risks breaking the hinge. There is a lot going on here but just consider that.

--------------------

A nice boring trick that can allow the use of longer wedges is to bore straight through the tree in the desired direction of fall as your first cut. Then insert snug your 12" long wedge on even an 8 or 9 inch dbh tree.
The bar width will more than cover the space needed for the wedge so don't even think about widening this cut. You must have great hingewood on both sides to do this.
Now do face and back cuts are offset in a similar manner to the quarter cuts. Carefully. Tapping the wedge as it allows you to move it. Do Not Force! Maintaining good wood on the corners is extremely important here.
One can add a second bore directly below early on to accommodate a second wedge. I have not done this on a three wedge level enough to recommend it. I'm just too chicken to try and counter that much of a lean with that little of softwood holding wood. With some smaller hardwoods you may be able to do this at the three wedge stage.

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With many of these cuts you will have to position yourself on more than one side of the tree and they require a lot of stump focus. This increases the overall danger so be ready to say no to any technique on a tree by tree basis.

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I'm probably going to get some heat for this but on the smaller diameter snags that I drop the most I usually don't use any of the above techniques. I will cut a 60-100 ft tall dead Lodgepole with a low conventional face quickly and then do a top of the bar back cut and stop as the tree settles on the bar but before I've cut off holding wood. These are dead and light in weight and do not pinch damage the bar.
I will then shut off the saw and just hand push the tree over utilizing about a 7 foot lever (distance from cuts to hand) SLOWLY while looking up every time. Even though these are easy to push this is a good habit.

This is of course on a tree by tree basis.

-------------------

What happens when you've reached the maximum lift of your wedging technique on a tree and you can't back-cut any more?
Tickle the face. (Don't you just love logger terminology?)
Only if you have converted the lean.
Let's review: Face and back cuts are in, wedge(s) is up against holding wood and any more driving risks breaking the hinge or at least damaging the wedge(s) and also fatigue.
The tree is now clearly leaning to the desired lay but not going over just yet.

With the tip of the bottom of the bar, in a 2 second cut just take 1/4" of the face out from the face side. This is from the far side of the face back toward you and you don't stop, you don't use the flat of the bar and get stuck and you do so in a motion that finishes with your stepping away into your escape route. Be aware that there is a tendency for a hungry chain to want to cut the corner holding wood nearest you and limit that cutting of that important wood.

If you do this a couple three times you are now at a barber chair risk from Dutchman cut. So limits here too.
This last technique is like the boring cuts. 
Gain some skill before attempting.


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## handsplitter (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm already holding my ears 'cause I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this, but I do it all the time.
If you can get access to a skid loader with teeth, dig 'em in about 2 feet back from the base on the opposite side you want it to fall and lifty lifty. You might have to back up and push with the bucket about 4' high, but it'll fall right over. I guarantee you can do 20 per hour. No stumps to grind or flush cut.


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## 2dogs (Jul 23, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> The quarter cut method, cutting half the back-cut - inserting wedge snug, then doing the rest of the back-cut - perhaps just slightly above or below to avoid wedge damage, is the best technique for the smallest trees that cannot be regular face and back-cut then pushed by hand. This could be 5" - 10" dbh. There is a sliding scale here regarding height weight lean quality of wood etc.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> ...



+1 I do alot of hand pushing over small dead evergreens. It is amazing how little they weigh. I call nipping what SC calls tickling and also use that technique.


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## smokechase II (Jul 23, 2008)

*Unusual cut*

Here is an unusual cut that I haven't seen anyone else do.

A combination of the bore for the wedge first and the quarter cut back-cut.

-------------------

I'll bore through directly in the intended direction of fall.
Then take out the 'quarter' on the heavy (compression) side of the back-cut.
At this point no face etc.
The two cuts match and the quarter section is complete to its back of the future hinge location.

Then I snug a wedge in the longer slot for the 10" or 12" wedge.
Occasionally I will place a second wedge in the quarter side.

Then the face taking care to not cut hinge and face it properly.

Then the remaining quarter slightly offset lower.

Wedge it over.

Advantages;
Long wedge slot does not need supplemental cuts like tickling the face,
Makes it where you don't have to carry a variety of wedges,
The compression side cutting is done more precisely when there is less risk by not being underneath the natural lean later,
With the offset cutting on separate level back-cuts there is an additional force needed to get those cuts to pop. Matching cuts exactly removes that potential snafu.


A slight variation to this is to do the above bore through and quarter but add a plunge through to set the rear of the hinge all the way across. This leaves a larger right angle strap or post on the non-compression side. It will be cut last, after the face.
This is more precise with regard to the face but make sure your post is decently large, with some safety margin, as you still have work to do on the face etc. I.e., don't try and get by with a smaller support post that would typically be your normal strap.


I need to take some photos to make these two variations more understandable.

-----------------

An odd thought, but only because it isn't stated often, is that you are generally better off wedging a tree over rather than cutting it over.
Less noise, no saw to move with you, get to where you know that one of the next two hits/taps will take the tree over etc and a slightly quicker escape.


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## smokechase II (Jul 23, 2008)

*I should point out*

The BC test that is on-line only allows boring through the hinge on fairly large diameter trees.

My experience working with trees with rotten centers and face center bores has taught me that the holding wood on the sides is what matters.


But be aware of this opinion especially because of all the true expert cutters up there.


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## 2dogs (Jul 23, 2008)

An odd thought, but only because it isn't stated often, is that you are generally better off wedging a tree over rather than cutting it over.
Less noise, no saw to move with you, get to where you know that one of the next two hits/taps will take the tree over etc and a slightly quicker escape.[/QUOTE]

+1 however I often cut dead fragile snags. If there are weak looking limbs I prefer to cut the tree over rather than risk breaking off limbs or causing a bark avalanche. Most times though I like to wedge the tree over for the reasons you have stated. If I win the lottery I'm buying a Silvey tree jack. Maybe two!


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## ropensaddle (Jul 24, 2008)

Sheesh more bore cutting not needed. Anyway small brush is best
handled by the cat method.


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## Ekka (Jul 24, 2008)

toddstreeservic said:


> funny story: In college for silviculture class we were all assigned a .10 acre plot in the woods. We went out, measured it and wrote up a mangement plan, then went out and cut what we proposed. Well we were out in the field and this guy hung a tree, the skidder was way on the other side of the parcel so the prof takes the students saw and drops another tree onto the first and that hangs, then he drops another onto it and hangs it. Finally he drops a third one onto it and they all fall down. Prof shuts off the saw, looks up, and says "man that sure opens things up!" " be sure and write that in your report." I think the guy had 1 tree left in his .10 acre plot.



LOL, and a lot less writing and work to do, I'm surprised the professor didn't get more requests.

Funny story.


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## clearance (Jul 24, 2008)

scotclayshooter said:


> Has no one checked out Ekka's Quarter cut video?
> He did another vid where he dropped 3 trees at the same time as the branches were interlocked all with the quarter cut method
> 
> First he does a normal notch then starts the back cut just like normal but only cutting quarter of the tree! then bangs in a wedge
> ...


I watched it. He used a steel wedge with a pretty steep angle. 1-Steel wedges are not allowed anywhere near chainsaws (I hope everyone knows why) 2-Steep angle can cause the wedge to spit out. 

I do things kind of that way, but use a plastic bucking wedge. I just put in the backcut first, set the wedge, put in the undercut, hammer the wedge and down she goes.

Faster, simpler, and safer, not quite as fancy, but oh well.


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## Ekka (Jul 25, 2008)

You are dumb, it was aluminium. 

Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood.


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## smokechase II (Jul 25, 2008)

*Question and alternative*

Question for the good of the order:

With regard to metal wedges; *does anyone know of Aluminum or magnesium wedges sending bits of metal off in the manner that steel wedges do?* This is a big safety item.

-----------

Ekka:

On many trees of say 8" or larger dbh you can do a bore straight through the tree in the direction of fall to accommodate longer wedges. Just make sure you have good holding wood on the corners.

A few advantages:
1) No wedge damage by jamming up against the back of the hinge wood,
2) Don't need to pack an assortment,
3) Gentler taper do a better job of lifting and less likely to pop out.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 25, 2008)

Climb on d 7, raise blade two inches and step on the gas.


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## clearance (Jul 25, 2008)

Ekka said:


> You are dumb, it was aluminium.
> 
> Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood.



Not dumb, it looked like steel, anyways Ekka, metal wedges are not allowed. Aluminium is a metal. 

As far as wedges hitting the holding wood (so called hinge wood), have you ever thought about putting it in the backcut on an angle? And you could have made a shallower undercut. Also, you could have bored through the center of the holding wood (if you hadn't made those side cuts).

More than one way to skin a cat Ekka, guys here figured out a better way, maybe you should try it.


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 25, 2008)

clearance said:


> Not dumb, it looked like steel, anyways Ekka, metal wedges are not allowed. Aluminium is a metal.
> 
> As far as wedges hitting the holding wood (so called hinge wood), have you ever thought about putting it in the backcut on an angle? And you could have made a shallower undercut. Also, you could have bored through the center of the holding wood (if you hadn't made those side cuts).
> 
> More than one way to skin a cat Ekka, guys here figured out a better way, maybe you should try it.



Aluminium wedges are ok in the UK 
The side cuts are because palms are fibrous if you didnt do the releif cuts it could pull the tree sideways instead of following the line of the hinge


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## Ekka (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm sure between the resident guru's like Smoke and Mirrors and Clarence have it all sorted their way.

Clarence + Smoke & Mirrors, do search "tongue and groove"  

Better ways, yeah right. :monkey:


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## clearance (Jul 26, 2008)

Ekka said:


> I'm sure between the resident guru's like Smoke and Mirrors and Clarence have it all sorted their way.
> 
> Clarence + Smoke & Mirrors, do search "tongue and groove"
> 
> Better ways, yeah right. :monkey:



Tongue and groove, uhh whatever, thats reserved for lesbians, not loggers.


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## smokechase II (Jul 26, 2008)

*Already covered*

Ekka:

"*On many trees of say 8" or larger dbh you can do a bore straight through the tree in the direction of fall to accommodate longer wedges. Just make sure you have good holding wood on the corners.

A few advantages:
1) No wedge damage by jamming up against the back of the hinge wood,
2) Don't need to pack an assortment,
3) Gentler taper do a better job of lifting and less likely to pop out.*"

------------

The placing of the bore on a lower level was not specified as your statement indicated a more primitive level of understanding; "*Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood."*

Just to help Ekka along here with some basics, his above statement is not true. With an in-line bore longer wedges can be used as they do not but up against the hinge wood as the bore goes through the hinge.

Picture this, the bore goes all the way through the tree in the desired direction of fall and the long wedge follows it through. Can you picture it avoiding the hingewood because the cut goes through the hinge?

Another way of thinking of this is that that wedge will not butt up against the hinge because it can't. THE HINGE HAS BEEN CUT TO ALLOW FOR A LONGER WEDGE.

Hope this helps.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 26, 2008)

Ok small diameter trees without the dozer why? Here goes take the large
wooden pruner poles and join two or three sections and encapsulate them
in pvc pipe for added strength then fab a firewood poker to fit the head
pole and secure it for safety. Now you have a secret weapon for trees
with limited liability that will produce for you, just jab poker into the wood at about ten foot up and you would be amazed at the effectiveness of my
product that I am thinking of patenting:monkey: It makes two people in
small stuff look like a crew but you would be surprised at the size tree it
will push and is better than the husky copy cancer curing ms 361 xp


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## smokechase II (Jul 26, 2008)

*Incline plane*

Ropensaddle:

Make one that fits into a wedge pouch and they will beat a path to your door.

-------------

Back to wedges are a great idea and there are a variety of techniques to taking advantage of them.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 26, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Ropensaddle:
> 
> Make one that fits into a wedge pouch and they will beat a path to your door.
> 
> ...



 ya mean a dozer or pike pole


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## Ekka (Jul 28, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Just to help Ekka along here with some basics, his above statement is not true.



Don't condescend me with your dribble!

My statement is dead true, just your comprehension is struggling (nothing new).

Use your narrow tapered wedges in the same application as I was cutting means strife, you will be butted up against the hinge in no time, but you don't address that you take a different cut .... pretty illogical. 
_
"Hey buddy, you're nuts using that ratchet jack, I use this hoist ... therefore you only know basics and a liar"​_ .... Smoke and Mirrors mentality!

Difference is I got a stack of wedges, even plastic ones, and I know the techniques, videos in fact not a bunch of 20 pages of BS loaded with caveats.

The 1/4 cut is a legitimate trained cut, a method, users need to be aware of the pitfalls which is narrow wedges, it's better to have higher ramping wedges. It's fast to cut and fell using it ... but you'd perhaps not know eh Mr One Trick Magoo.  

Your brain rather than accept and understand switches to argument, discrediting and saying there's better or other ways. Sure there is, I know them, but the 1/4 cut is just that, it works, is fast and we are talking small trees not 15ton+ monsters.  

Keep up your BS, we're getting a good laugh.  

I'd have more tricks up my sleeve than you'd have in your entire wardrobe. :greenchainsaw:


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## smokechase II (Jul 28, 2008)

*Let's review*

I have no problem with the quarter cut. It has its place.

The issue here is Ekka stated; *"Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood."[/I]*_

----------------

That is not true.

Briefly:
"The wedge will not butt up against the hinge because it can't. THE HINGE HAS BEEN CUT THROUGH THE CENTER TO ALLOW FOR A LONGER WEDGE."

The part I left out was failing to say "that means a short wedge isn't required."

Sorry.

--------------

Ekka:

I'm not aware of anyone on this site having ever called you a liar.
However, your comprehension rate is suspect. 
This possibly related to things you haven't seen or tried._


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## smokechase II (Jul 28, 2008)

*For everyone else*

The bore through has its limitations just like every other single cutting technique.

Mostly this relates to diameter and necessary holding wood in the hinge.
A second major concern is that it requires cutting on more than one side of the tree. This option may not always be available from safety and slope concerns. It also requires the skill to safely plunge cut in any given tree species and wood condition. 

--------------

In addition to the previously stated advantages:
{"1) No wedge damage by jamming up against the back of the hinge wood,
2) Don't need to pack an assortment of wedges,
3) Gentler taper do a better job of lifting and less likely to pop out."},
*I'd like to emphasize the second bore just below the first where two wedges work in tandem. This stacking method also reduces the likelihood of a wedge popping out. Each wedge is held by most woods better (top and bottom) than any other multiple wedge method, (even angled), without with dirt or chips. If any cutter really wants to almost eliminate wedges popping out do this stacking of bore cuts with just a little dirt for each.*

This needs to be emphasized in this discussion as the short/steep wedges really want to pop out even with dirt/chips. 

--------------

Perhaps an appreciation for what AS can offer is in order for the general readership.

Look over all the techniques you see discussed here. Bounce the best of them off the most skilled cutters in your area. Try what they suggest.

No big deal. 

Remember. No one has put out a complete guide to falling techniques used around the world. That would take about a dozen senior skilled cutters all from different locations. Until that happens, sort through what you can on AS in addition to your collection of falling books.

All the Best


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## scotclayshooter (Jul 28, 2008)

Ok lets say you did the bore through and used your long wedge, Isnt the wedge going to jam in the hinge if the tree does not go over?

The aluminium short steep ramped wedges i have seen have barbs on them to stop them jumping out!


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## smokechase II (Jul 28, 2008)

*No & Yes*

The bore goes through to the lay side. All the way through.
No possibility of hinge contact.

-------------

I haven't seen any of those barbs that I think you're describing in years. There used to be some on a few of the plastic wedges we had.
They were kind of rounded in shape.
When they were only on one side the wedges could still be stacked.

The shorter plastic wedges (5 1/2 inches) we usually use have a ridging that helps but when fighting a good weighted lean in solid wood they often don't hold. Hardwoods are much tougher in these diameters.


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## Ekka (Jul 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> I have no problem with the quarter cut. It has its place.
> 
> The issue here is Ekka stated; *"Also small dia trees require steeper ramped wedges so they dont butt up into the hinge wood."[/I]*_
> 
> ...


_

Clearly your ARROGANCE precedes your intellect.

You again have changed the application, HELLO, did you see me bore through the hinge? No.

So you change the cuts, bore through, that is not the same.

Smoke and Mirrors, get ya hand off it mate you're getting blisters!

*Then I would say, steeper ramped wedges also prevent you having to bore valuable hinge wood.*  

Again, we are talking small/narrow trees. I have wedged over 80' slash pines and 60' (2500kg) palms no worries with that. Like I said, learn to read though pal._


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## a_lopa (Jul 29, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> The bore goes through to the lay side. All the way through.
> No possibility of hinge contact.
> 
> -------------
> ...



Thanks for summing up your abilitys.


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## smokechase II (Jul 29, 2008)

*You changed*

Ekka:

You're the one that has changed.

We didn't see you bore through the hinge because you didn't understand that was an option. No big deal, you hadn't figured out that a quarter cut technique is generally secondary to the basic back cut before a face cut otherwise you would have listed it.

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*"Then I would say, steeper ramped wedges also prevent you having to bore valuable hinge wood."* That is a good point. Thank you for remaking it. There are cautions with each of these techniques. If there isn't good holding wood on both corners essentially all of these options are off the table.

In the future I'd hope that you pick up on those caveats sooner.

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With regard to blisters, you are the palm expert.


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## Ekka (Jul 30, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Ekka:
> 
> You're the one that has changed.
> 
> We didn't see you bore through the hinge because you didn't understand that was an option. No big deal, you hadn't figured out that a quarter cut technique is generally secondary to the basic back cut before a face cut otherwise you would have listed it.



Here you again, so now not only have I have changed something but I dont understand something!

You must have auditioned for the movie Dumb and Dumber! :monkey: 

Stop and think readers, be very careful. This is a public forum, and from chaff cutters to firemen they all get a chance to write.

See, Ole Smoke and Mirrors has changed a cut or procedure and then feels he can run others into the ground, assumes they are stupid or telling lies.

But that is because ole Smoke and Mirrors has self elevated his rank within his own head.

He'll move the goal posts around to suit himself as neccessary to accomodate his ideas, and then strangely even attack and put others down.

Shortly I will be an official trainer, not only assessing peoples felling skills but also seeing what they know or are capable of if things go wrong.

In the event that you do the 1/4 cut which is designed for small trees, it's clear that all the hinge is best. The problem with small trees is you cannot get a bar width and a wedge behind it into the tree, the tree is simply too small a dia to do that.

Some solutions which work great are stacking wedges so there's more taper. That's a great idea for people like Smoke and Mirrors who seem to only have one size fits all wedges in their kit.  I have an assortment, but genuinely love the aluminium high ramped wedges, I even use them on the big trees and you can really lay into them with a maul if need be.

Now imagine yourself in a situation where you thought the tree would go over and belted the wedge in, the wedge is now butted up against the hinge wood but the tree isn't going. What would you do?

Well, who says you only have one wedge in? You can wedge the other side of the 1/4 cut (or any cut frankly) too, but you now have a large gap there due to the first wedge in, so you start with a double stack or high ramped wedge. Soon as this new wedge is lifting the other wedges can be pulled out and also stacked ....

Whether this is with the 1/4 cut technique or any other technique what if the tree "sits back" on your saw? So again, you can bore cut and wedge.

*These solutions aren't just solutions to one technique* (as Smoke and Mirrors suggests) nor does it make the 1/4 cut technique defective. And as you can see solutions abound, so what Smoke and Mirrors has suggested is a solution to a problem that might occur (in more than one example/technique), and it's just one solution, there are other solutions like felling bars/levers, roping and even a pole like some-one suggested.

Thin trees can also be tall trees. Tall thin trees do get pushed around by the slightest breezes. Palms fall into these categories and I have 1/4 cut thousands, like a production line, never ever had a wedge shoot out, never ever had to bore my way out of a jam either. If for whatever reason extra support is required then rope it, clear and simple, but as far as fast production you wont beat that technique. Slash pines abound around here too, often they average maybe 12" dia but are up to 80' tall. When I get these, or any tree compared to a palm, it's better. The wood is better and things are a lot more stable/reliable. Pines hang on great, very flexible too. In most of my videos you'll see me using high ramped aluminium wedges, ever seen one shoot out? Nope. Eucalypts here, often the Ht to DBH ratio is around 45:1, that means a 1' dia tree is 45' tall and 2' dia tree 90' tall. Heavy timber, the high ramped wedges are great here too, with the shallower wedges I found I belted them in till they were flush, simply not enough height on them for the lift, that is the conditions here, we're semi tropical and many trees grow tall for DBH, they grow nearly all year around.

And even if Smoke and Mirrors or Clarence is not allowed to use one, refuses to use one etc who gives a chit really, fact is I can and do, lucky me I guess while they miss out.  

Knowing various techniques is wise. Knowing how to come unstuck for any technique is also wise.  *And in summary, there's no caveats, just common sense and procedures for getting out of a jam in many felling techniques.*


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## smokechase II (Jul 30, 2008)

*Suggestion*

To the casual observer;

Consider all the cuts mentioned.

The 1/4 cut can be fine.
As Ekker stated it is pretty well limited to smallest diameters.

Oftentimes with straight and gentle backleaners it is replaced best by the back-cut prior to face. Keep it simple - make all your cuts from the same side, avoid risk on the off-side, give yourself the ability to work on slope, better hinge rear cut, less time in the danger zone and the back-cut prior to the face is just easy.

This is important even when cutting on a lawn.

------------

Then when the diameter gets too big for the 1/4 cut to be the optimal cut, consider the bore through if solid holding wood is available on the corners.

-----------

Back to the smaller diameters. If the tree is light just cut normally, leave holding wood all the way across the back, let the tree settle on the saw. With your cuts being low you have a decent lever to push with your hand (saw if off - bar rail pinching is not a problem here because we specified lighter trees), and watch the top.

No saw noise, looking up is always good and it’s easy now.

-------------

There is always a variety of plunge the rear tools that can work once you get a little bigger diameters too.

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Just remember that there are two absolute facts in regard to this thread.

1) The wedge does not need to hit the back of the hinge. You are making a mistake as a cutter if you do that or set up to do that. Look over the different methods outlined in this thread to avoid wedge damage.

2) If you can't get along with folks on the internet or in your marriage you are not likely to succeed in logical discussions.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 30, 2008)

Ekka, I am glad to see you state a good case for the high metal wedges. I use them too, for exactly the stuff you are talking about. I appreciate your expertise and the time you put in making instructional videos and posting on this site. Not trying to kiss @ss, just calling it like I see it.


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