# Pulp, PNW style



## northmanlogging (Sep 16, 2015)

Alrighty, exploring a new venture. I know its going to be a nightmare of hard work, mostly hoping some of you folks will talk me out of it.

Anyway, have a project lined up that is a full cleanup scalp it to the bone type stumps and all. Anywhere else on the Planet I could just burn the slash... (which I may still be able to do... IF DNR is being nice) But in the event that I can not burn the stumps and slash, I'll have to haul it off.

So the plan is to hand cut the Fir and Hemlock tops for pulp, as now there is still one pulp mill in the area and they are paying 33-35 a ton (which is pennies I know).

Or to haul it off would be about one load of junk per load of logs, at approximately $550 per load (I'd probably be getting around 1500-2000k for each load of logs(I say that now...)).

Fire wood is just too much work and no market for it this year anyway, very mild winter last year and no one burned much wood. Still have 9 or so dumper truck loads on a previous project that haven't sold.

So to the question of the day, is it worth it to spend probably 3 days limbing and bucking the tops for pulp? or should I just cross my fingers and hope they don't take up too much room in the dump boxes. (I'm figuring on getting 6-8 load of logs from this project so prob, like one maybe two loads of pulp logs?)

P.S. I will likely be renting an excavator on this job (unless I buy one first), so the loading of said stumps and digging of said stumps won't be the issue.


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## Gologit (Sep 17, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> So the plan is to hand cut the Fir and Hemlock tops for pulp, as now there is still one pulp mill in the area and they are paying 33-35 a ton (which is pennies I know).
> 
> Or to haul it off would be about one load of junk per load of logs, at approximately $550 per load (I'd probably be getting around 1500-2000k for each load of logs(I say that now...)).
> 
> ...




Talk you out of it? Okay, I'll try. It sounds like a lot of work for not much return. Lots of loose ends. If the log prices stay up and if the pulp prices stay up and if you can keep your machinery rental and hauling prices down it might be worth trying. It also might be one of those "I'm going broke but I'm working my ass off" deals, too.
It's hard to pencil out job costs without having an idea of what the entire job is going to be like. You've been doing this long enough to have learned that if your gut tells you it's a bad idea it probably is. If you take on a job and go broke half way through and have to walk off it can kill your reputation. Doesn't do your bank account much good either.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 17, 2015)

This would be my first stumping project, so the scary part is the excavator rental... 2k a week or more, its only half an acre so I should be able to stump it in a couple of days, and load everything out if needed in short order, burning the slash shouldn't take more then 4 days.

This particular project is about #5 on the list, with a little luck I may even have enough to purchase an older excavator and then take my time on the stumping part, rather then rushing it because of the rental. (there is a Kobelco/kumatso 200 for 12k and and a few more for under 20k near by all runners just old)

As long as prices hold I'll be ok on it. 

Pulping the tops would hopefully be adding money rather then losing money, even if its a bunch of hand work and I break even on the pulp its better than going backwards.


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## madhatte (Sep 17, 2015)

It's not DNR gonna stop you from burning the slash -- it's PSCAA. Those folks are vicious. We straddle the jurisdiction break between PSCAA and ORCAA; it's WAY easier to get things done in Thurston Co than it is in Pierce. As I recall, PSCAA is Pierce, King, Snohomish.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 17, 2015)

I think the firewood companies here pay 800 per load of logs that are not saleable to the mill ,do you have guys like that there that do production firewood ?


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## northmanlogging (Sep 17, 2015)

madhatte said:


> It's not DNR gonna stop you from burning the slash -- it's PSCAA. Those folks are vicious. We straddle the jurisdiction break between PSCAA and ORCAA; it's WAY easier to get things done in Thurston Co than it is in Pierce. As I recall, PSCAA is Pierce, King, Snohomish.



PSCAA has allready passed the buck to the county, which has passed the buck to DNR, and DNR just has a few hoops you have to jump through to make it happen, (fire suppression, machine on sight, contact fire dept and be mindful of burn bans etc) still have to see if we can get the approval though...

By the way PSCAA can kiss my pimply ass...



Trx250r180 said:


> I think the firewood companies here pay 800 per load of logs that are not saleable to the mill ,do you have guys like that there that do production firewood ?



The firewood companies out here are some of my competition, they log and firewood, otherwise the rest of the "firewood" businesses is just a cover for tweekers or hillbillies looking for drug or beer money (when they can't pick up a good used saw for really really cheap). I'm ok with the hill billies... mostly... some of them are just well groomed tweekers... But like I said earlier, firewoods just not selling this year.


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## muddstopper (Sep 18, 2015)

Do you not have a delimber you can just run those tops thru and knock the limbs off. In WNC I know we dont have the type or size of timber you guys out west are used to, but whitepine and longleaf pine should be similar in nature as your Fir and Hemlock. The loggers around here skid the whole tree to the landing and use a delimber to just drag the trees thru, then to the buck saw and onto the truck. Nobody runs a saw for delimbing, at least not all that much anymore. Heck around here now, all the limbs and such are ran thru a chipper and sent to the power companies to mix with coal to produce power. nothing left but stumps and not much of those if your in south ga. The timber companies there will use big dozers pulling chopping harrows to chop the brush back into the sandy ground, Then they take dogs to sniff out the stumps, dangest thing I ever seen, load those stumps up and take them to be converted into dynamite. No steep hills down there to contend with, but if the ground even looks wet you can sink a dozer in a heart beat.


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## madhatte (Sep 18, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> PSCAA has allready passed the buck to the county, which has passed the buck to DNR, and DNR just has a few hoops you have to jump through to make it happen, (fire suppression, machine on sight, contact fire dept and be mindful of burn bans etc) still have to see if we can get the approval though...



Huh. Down here they rule with an iron fist, based on the lowest common denominator. 



northmanlogging said:


> By the way PSCAA can kiss my pimply ass...



Agreed 100%.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 18, 2015)

Processors are not cheap, and I'm just a gyppo with delusions of grandeur.

If a regular 120-160 sized (30-40ton) excavator is 2500 a week to rent, I'm guessing that a processor which are generally a bigger machine, will be half again or double that, and not be able to dig anything.

In other words $3000-5000 to process 6-8 loads of logs, and one load of pulp. Plus fuel at 90-120 gallons a day at $2 a gallon, probably just the one day though... Oh and hiring somebody to run the damn thing at $30 plus an hour plus $21 an hour L+I... Then when that's all done bring in an excavator to pop stumps for a week or so, at 90 gallons a day...

Not a bad idea, and a processor would be fantastic or at the very least a pad mount delimber, but a processor really only makes money on a fairly good sized job. And without a grapple and a loader or excavator the pad mount delimbers are kinda useless... A guy could probably get the logs up in there with the skidder, but it would be a headache in more ways then one, and its also really hard on the machine.

As it stands if I want to do fire wood the tops need limbed.

If I want to do pulp the tops need limbed.

If I want to pay for removal... I'll need to pay for removal...

If I can burn it... then I'll need to pay for weenies, marshmallows, beer and hookers, and find/build that fire wagon... or rent one.

But really though limbing up a few extra sticks isn't such bad thing is it?

As far as the PSCAA is concerned I think they finally got the memo that no one believes (or cares) they are a real government agency, and what they have to say about burning is mostly fantasy, after all burning wood releases the exact same amount of carbon, mono or dioxide, as rotting wood. Just try not to use so many tires...


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## Joe46 (Sep 18, 2015)

Crazy ex-neighbor called the PSCAA on me years ago for using my wood stove during a burn ban. It's my sole source of heat. When they showed up I ran them off and told them if they ever showed up again I would call the sheriffs and have them cited for trespassing. Never been back! They are really just stoolies for the Wa D.C. enviros.


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## muddstopper (Sep 18, 2015)

6 or 8 loads of logs and one load of pulp, I thought you where talking about a lot more wood than that, sometimes the whole economics makes some jobs not worth doing.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 18, 2015)

well you got that big digging machine.............Put em under the dirt


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## northmanlogging (Sep 18, 2015)

If only...

Was out yer way a couple weeks ago... thought about stopping in... but didn't


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## KiwiBro (Sep 20, 2015)

No biomass buyer near enough to take the chips or have their own chipping contractors with the right gear to mow through the tops and stumps? Small job may not be worth their while but perhaps they would charge less than the $4k or so you were looking at to dump it?

Dig pits, hire fire wagon, burn sounds better though.

If you have the room, and can check it would get you higher up the food/value chain, could you get a portable mill in rather than send logs out. If it actually pays better, more $ left for dealing with the flotsam without losing your ass on the whole job.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 20, 2015)

Gonna go ahead and avoid getting into the milling side of things... (got enough toys I can't pay for now...)

There are outfits that chip for biomass or regular pulp, but they are massive outfits that can chug through a reefer/chip trailer in 3-5 minutes... or pretty much every stick on any of the jobs I've done in half a day.

I called one of em to see how it would work, they wanted 8K to show up, and then still had to pay by the ton for removal (crooks) that was a couple years ago.


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## 1270d (Sep 20, 2015)

Could you rent a smaller chipper,blow the chips into your dump truck and sell it for hog fuel?


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## KiwiBro (Sep 20, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Gonna go ahead and avoid getting into the milling side of things... (got enough toys I can't pay for now...)
> 
> There are outfits that chip for biomass or regular pulp, but they are massive outfits that can chug through a reefer/chip trailer in 3-5 minutes... or pretty much every stick on any of the jobs I've done in half a day.
> 
> I called one of em to see how it would work, they wanted 8K to show up, and then still had to pay by the ton for removal (crooks) that was a couple years ago.



Perhaps hire a smaller but still productive chipper/grinder yourself, if you can find a buyer? Even if it means paying the truck driver a bit extra for being parked up for an hour or two each time while you chip straight into their bins.

If there are existing firewood outfits, perhaps they may be able to extract more value and you can even offer to pay them a bit to belt through the tops pronto and it still works out cheaper overall than the $4k or so you are up for to deal to the tops. You look after them, maybe they will look after you when they get into big wood too good for firewood or need a hand on a bigger job.

Burning may be the best option, if possible to do so. Probably the cheapest. Can't cost too much to hire a fire truck, surely? Even paying someone a few days to watch over the pits and top them up (or if you are nearby then pop over twice a day and top em up yourself). I dunno what the laws are in your neck of the woods though.

I did see a Euro machine that delimbed tops, bucked, split, tumbled clean, and dropped firewood into bags. All automatically apart from the crane to feed the delimber and someone to clear the bags (or could just drop off the conveyor into piles). Thought that could work well over here for our pine tops.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 20, 2015)

chipping is either small scale, like 6-12" tow behind stuff, I.E. manually feeding the branches... not fun, doable, but a good way to go broke.

or get the big whole tree chipper and pay out the nose.

May have a fire pump just need to find the cash and make up a skid for it, poly totes are cheap, and hoses can be found or ordered.

I think that fires need to be supervised at all times, which isn't such a big deal, find a couple of somewhat responsible kids that don't mind staying up all night and not inviting all of their friends to a KEGGER! is really not as hard as one would think.

I like the idea of chipping everything, but past experience tells me its not really worth it, more work than limbing everything...


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## northmanlogging (Sep 28, 2016)

Over a year since this job was quoted... F the county and F engineers... 11 months to get a permit on this one.

Anyway, this is the job... Plan B is to load the brush into end dump trailers or 40yd trash bins, truck em off to a compost place or better yet to native ground where they can be burnt... Plan A was to burn it, but to appease the county I have to follow pscaa's rules as stupid as they are they can shut a project down.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 28, 2016)

On a brighter note I own the excavator in the vid outright, so I can take my time and sweat as much as necessary.


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## ArtB (Sep 28, 2016)

The 1/2 acre small lot caught my eye in northman's post.

3 years ago a neighbor cleared his 1 acre lot next to me.
No idea what it cost him, but he'd paid $300K for the acre so probably had plenty $$. At least he only built a single family dwelling vs. putting 8 houses there!
For clearing, guy dropped off a D10 (for an acre!!!??) and big Link Belt excavator and big tub grinder and semi truck, done in 2 days. Was mostly alder, only 1 or 2 fir bigger than 18". One of the other neighbors salvaged 6 or 7 cords of alder. Contractor told me back then the tub grinder chips sold for all of $7.00 (seven, Lincoln and 8 quarters ) delivered to the mill, not even enough to pay for fuel to haul it.( edit $7 per semi load, NOT per ton! ) I'd have just spread the chips and let them rot, but the owner now has a large lawn. 

20 years or so ago cleared one of my own acres in back of the house (King county, right at city limits) with just an old D2 but left the stumps, did it just before PSCAA got their gestapo powers, so was able to burn 12 ft dia slash piles. One stump is cutoff about 12 ft high, still about 8 ft diameter, that was a nice tree back in 1910 or so. One of these years before I die I need to saw into that stump and see how many rings left.
Even way back in 1971, wanted to slash burn a 500 ft long 6 ft wide pile along the road (county right of way, trail permit) I put in to the house, Fire dept wanted 12 ft dia piles. I just let them sit and rot and let firewood folks pick at the piles. Good old days are gone forever in urban areas.

Those unfamiliar with PNW populated areas:
Green weenies abound out here. 30 years ago a developer would leave almost 50% of big firs (2nd growth, 15-25" DBH) and built in among the trees - now they put up to 8ea 4000 sq ft 2 story houses on an acre and knock down every tree except for wetland designated areas, where they usually put in a required storm water drainage pond. 7 acres sold 1000 ft north of me 12 years ago, not a single tree was left, now has 55 houses. County and cities now require some trees left, usually in mandated green belt areas, very complicated permit processes out here. And has driven cost of a new house to about $800K even with them packed cheek to jowl with neighbors!!


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## northmanlogging (Sep 28, 2016)

From what I understand the LO is already into this about 20k just for the permits, design, and engineering. 

Septic, house, new driveway, landscaping (if any) all still need to be done.

I'm trying to pull this off without costing them any money, but brush disposal is going to be expensive... so we'll see

The competition bid them 20k for cleanup, plus 3k for moving the equipment in, I shouldn't know this but I do... And they where planning in keeping the timber too...

I may not get ritch, but I'm not going to rip a guy off.


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## madhatte (Sep 29, 2016)

ARGGGGH PSCAA


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 29, 2016)

20k for 1/2 acre? We did a 40 acre lot 2 years ago, charged 18k plus took all the timber. It's farmland now.

60+ cords off 1/2 acre? We are lucky to get 10 cords an acre.

What size ex? We gave a 200. Wouldn't want any smaller for log road building and stumping.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 29, 2016)

its a 120, its small for stumping, but it will work, just slower.

Anything over a 160 gets hard to move, lowboys can be expensive and difficult to load, unload, hire, contact, and generally a pain in the ass to deal with.

My philosophy from the beginning is to keep it small and mobile, 30 yrs ago folks didn't need these massive machines to do the same work, it just took longer, I'm ok with taking longer, cause its more careful, and cheaper in the long run.

As far as 60 cords... we gots taller and fatter timber down here


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## northmanlogging (Sep 29, 2016)

NO vid today, if ****ed up and didn't hit record...

Got an old shovel jockey out to show me a few things, he's 75, and nearly finished the whole damn job in 4 hours...

Ran me ragged fer sure.


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## Odog (Sep 30, 2016)

That's not a bad looking hoe man. Pretty nice looking jobsite too, not a single sagebrush in site!


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 30, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> its a 120, its small for stumping, but it will work, just slower.
> 
> Anything over a 160 gets hard to move, lowboys can be expensive and difficult to load, unload, hire, contact, and generally a pain in the ass to deal with.
> 
> ...




30 yrs ago we used an HD11 dozer and 310A backhoe.
Now have the 200 ex and a 750 dozer for road building.

Hauling the 200 isn't a big deal, it's only around 60k lbs and 10.5ft, so no pilot cars.
The Bucher is a pain, it's 14ft tall, so overheight on a trailer (14.5 feet is the max Gere before permits). Also 95k lbs.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 30, 2016)

95% of what i do is small acreage, with neighbors and paved roads, getting a lowboy in and turned around isn't always an option.

besides after 4hrs yesterday i can't see how bigger really pays off. bigger means more expensive all the way around, parts, fuel, transport, purchase, insurance.

and if ya hang out long enough you'll notice that even with massive machines we all end up making the same amount at the end of the year... not enough

farmers keep ****ing this up every year' by a big tractor plow 1000 acres a day, but tp pay for it you need 500 more acres, but to ploe 1500 acres you need a bigger tractor, but to pay for it you need 500 more acres... it never really stops once yer in thst mindset yer ****ed and the bank owns you, hence lots of farmers commit suicide.

the alternative is to realize that one little machine if usef right can keep you going and still be profitable, or get a loan and give all of your money to the bank.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 3, 2016)

I should really stop posting from muh phone...^^ touch screens suck... 

Anyway Part 3


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## northmanlogging (Oct 5, 2016)

no vid today, spent most of the day dickin with the tracks on the essavator...

did get a fat load of ceder out, so that will be nice.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 6, 2016)

. .. ... .. update .. .... ....-...


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## northmanlogging (Oct 13, 2016)

Part 6


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## northmanlogging (Oct 13, 2016)

part 7, end of week 3


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## northmanlogging (Oct 18, 2016)

part 8 Scared off a bunch of deers and some turkeys this morning, they split before I could get a good vid of em though.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 19, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 95% of what i do is small acreage, with neighbors and paved roads, getting a lowboy in and turned around isn't always an option.
> 
> besides after 4hrs yesterday i can't see how bigger really pays off. bigger means more expensive all the way around, parts, fuel, transport, purchase, insurance.
> 
> ...





northmanlogging said:


> 95% of what i do is small acreage, with neighbors and paved roads, getting a lowboy in and turned around isn't always an option.
> 
> besides after 4hrs yesterday i can't see how bigger really pays off. bigger means more expensive all the way around, parts, fuel, transport, purchase, insurance.
> 
> ...



A 200 is considered on the small side here. Most anyone doing dirt work is running a 300 or 400. I've run little ones, a 200 is just about right. Easy to move, decent on fuel and still enough ass for most jobs.

I played with a 750 last week... boy did it move dirt!

No loan on the 200. Was bought at auction and the first job paid more than it cost. That was 7 or 8 years ago.

We normally don't do anything under 10 acres though. Like the job we are on right now is about 170 acres. Have the buncher, delimber, and 1 648 out there. Owner brought out a wide pad D6 and 330 excavator to put in a barn, gave us the keys to them.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 19, 2016)

300 sized machines are massive, need lowboy with jeeps to move em here, not exactly easy to maneuver into a narrow driveway or sketchy neighborhood.

I've only seen 400 sized machines on big highway projects, or in gravel pits.

A 200 sized machine still requires a lowboy, and chase cars, and permits to move (over 8'6").

Most of my competition run 120's, or 160's, a couple have 210's.

To put it mildly that big cedar stump, all 48" of it came out in around 1/2 an hour today, with a wee little 120, yes a 300 machine could have plucked it right out of the ground in one scoop, but I could never have gotten it into this job.

Now all that being said, folks want big machines fine, I don't have to or wan't to pay for em.

The big yarder sides and shovel loggers, are running 300 class machines, some are in the 200's but not many, the difference if that they would have this job done in a week, not 5 weeks like I'm lookin at, but they have the equipment and the manpower to get it done... I just have me and a 46 yr old dump truck...

I have no need to load 20 log trucks a day, Hell 20 loads would be a killer month for me. The little 120 has enough grunt to move the bigger sticks, not nimble or anything and a little tippy, but she can move them, without overheating the hydraulics... And she can still pop most stumps without working super hard. Granted if full land clearing was my thing the option of a bigger machine, something in the 200 class would be thought long and hard on, But I seriously question the need for a machine that can toss 3 top 5 yards of dirt with every scoop, on a clearing job, where yer only going to pick up so much duff at one time.

Ultimately there is a point where machine efficiency, becomes inefficient. Ooh yeah I gots soooo much POWER... yet I can't turn around or get between all these stumps, or even get off the pavement and onto the job cause the pavement would be no more.

So go ahead, buy that 1000hp tractor... and the 500 acres needed to pay for it... and next year when you need 1500 hp, and another 500 acres to pay for it. Lemme know how much you made at the end of the year.


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## Odog (Oct 20, 2016)

We have a couple Komatsu 200's and a 300, and we have to haul them with our 3 axle lowboy, but we don't dig dirt either, we're always in the rock. The dirt guys around here will run a scraper over and take off the top couple of feet, then they're in the solid rock. However, there are a number of dirt guys out here with 120-160 size machines with small rock hammers who dig trench and hammer rock and they work pretty good, they haul em around with dump trucks and backhoe trailers. The only things we haul with our lowboy and jeep and booster is our 120000 lb rock saws and track jaw. And it's not the easiest thing to maneuver into a small job site. A big hoe is great if you can justify it, but most of the time a little hoe will get just as much done without all the headache and other equipment required by a big one.

Oh and northman, I have a few things I'll be emailing you, it's just been busy here with work, firewood, and hunting season going on all at the same time


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## northmanlogging (Oct 20, 2016)

Part 9.

Pushing trees with the Excavator solo is tricky by the way...


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 21, 2016)

Haul the 200 with a std 2 axle 25 ton lowboy, nothing special. It's 10ft 6in wide, it's just a $50? permit that we don't usually worry about. 10ft is max width otherwise. Weighs about 22 tons.

Usually permit the buncher, it's about 16ft tall and 45 tons. 14ft 6 I think is max... I'd have to look in my book, we normally hire out to move the iron, it's easier.
Even a 300 isn't that big, only around 35 tons.


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## catbuster (Oct 21, 2016)

To each his own, but I run predominately 336 and 349 (70,000 and 100,000 lb) machines. I can run them just about anywhere. Just gotta start in one place and work your way in to a site, among other things you have to know to run these machines efficiently.

They're also really comfortable moving big sticks, you don't really fight them. I ran my old 315C a couple weeks ago and it felt like a midget machine. But I do understand how you feel about large machines, especially if you don't have a ton of seat time. There are ways to work around damaging driveways and other stuff, but it comes with time.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 21, 2016)

Its the maintenance, fuel, moving, and cost, that ultimately gets me.

yes a larger machine does more easier

But it costs as much or more to operate. 

Though I still don't see why bigger is better always, some jobs a smaller machine gets done just as fast as a big machine, but costs less to operate.

Some jobs require a massive machine (I don't want anything to do with jobs that size), 

Also keep in mind logging isn't dirt work, nimble to me is more important than power.

Which brings up the same ole question, why in the hell do the big outfits have to have 300 sized loaders, when 10-20 years ago a 200 class loader was good enough, and the wood was bigger then? Its not like they are chucking an entire load on the truck in one go, the drivers would have a coronary.

Far as I can tell all a big machine on the landing is going to do is create more of a headache with tight landings.


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## madhatte (Oct 22, 2016)

Only way I can see that penciling out is if the bigger machines have bigger parts that wear out slower moving smaller wood, leading to (net) lower parts and mechanic costs? Otherwise I can't see the fuel and repair expenses for a bigger unit not outweighing the speed gain.


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## catbuster (Oct 22, 2016)

madhatte said:


> Only way I can see that penciling out is if the bigger machines have bigger parts that wear out slower moving smaller wood, leading to (net) lower parts and mechanic costs? Otherwise I can't see the fuel and repair expenses for a bigger unit not outweighing the speed gain.



On a 336 that's very true, the main gains over a 329 is reach. But over a 200? You're spot on. Much heavier parts that last twice as long. The fuel burn is negligable when calculating operating costs, especially when between reach and power, with the good operator caveat, a 70,000 lb machine is close to twice as productive in any application with only a ~25% percent increase in fuel.

Something that's also worth noting is that 40,000 lb machines of twenty years ago are pretty comparable to today's machines in that size class. A 325 is now a 329, and with that weight has come an increase in power and productivity. It's the same with what used to be a 330 that was once just an oversized 320 that has become a 336 and a borderline production class machine(comparable to the old 235). With a focus on efficiency I don't see a good reason not to run a larger machine with economies of scale kicking in. Sometimes looking forward and not back to the old timers is the way to go, albeit they did a lot of things better than we're often forced to today.

But that's my take. A 329/290 is probably the sweet spot as a shovel for the wood that's being moved today, but for clearing/grubbing, road building and dirt work there is no downside to moving up two size classes to a 70,000 lb machine in my experience.

And man is it nice to be able to have a civil conversation about this.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 22, 2016)

The big wear parts on big machines, pins, undercarriage, bushings etc wear about as fast as a smaller machine. Bigger machine bigger pins.

The pump and motor are the big uh ohs, as well as drive motors etc, all wear out, and none of its cheap.

There is also the added cost of needing a crane to work on just about anything on a bigger machine. (granted not a big crane, but we're talking service truck and $150 an hour plus trip charge)


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## ArtB (Oct 22, 2016)

Need to put this thread on 'ignore?'

All this big machine talk is making my mouth water - have thought to get a 120, but am just an old retired 'hobbyist logger'.

So, seriously, since I only use a machine 20 or so day a YEAR for DIY purposes (and often only for a few hours at a time), is there any advantage of me having a 120 size machine other than as a 'toy'? Have seen 'needs work' 120s for under $20K. Would have to build a bigger barn to work on it? I do 100% of own mechanic work.
Maybe just as an excuse for a bigger crane too

Present stable are JD440 track loader, 440IC, 853 bobcat with backhoe, and Ford 4500 with backhoe. I can still haul those around when needed with pickup truck and trailer. Have been able to load a 24 ft 30 in dia green fir log onto trailer with the 440 and 20 ft diy crane on the back.


Wife/kids/grandkids not too keen (well maybe 2 of the grandsons) on me getting a bigger or even another machine as they worry about selling it when I die.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 22, 2016)

machines hold their value once they are a certain age, like 20 yrs or so.

kinda why i like buying used junk... they're easy to fix and when done you end up with a real gem.

the 120 sized machines are a little hard to find that are not junk though... folks wants em bad. 

really though unless you have some heavy digging a backhoe is probably better. Even though i really like the essavator, if i wasn't logging iI would have kept the backhoe


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## northmanlogging (Oct 22, 2016)

... though backhoes suck on any thing not level, or mud, or soft...

tracks is nice...


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## ArtB (Oct 22, 2016)

Have tracks for the bobcat, fit over the tires, work surprisingly well. Since the bobcat wheel drives are hydraulic, that provides for a big hydraulic capability for the backhoe attachment.

Only thing heavy I'd have is a few over 8 ft dia fir stumps where the springboards were about 8 foot up , but think I will leave them for 'posterity'. 

Probably would succumb to a 120 if I found one for scrap metal prices <G>


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## northmanlogging (Oct 22, 2016)

if ya find one that cheap don't wait jump on it... missed several that way


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## northmanlogging (Oct 27, 2016)

Yup... threw a track twice this week, broke the dumper truck on monday... rocked every chain I got... tough week, but the end is near.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 28, 2016)

End is near on the property? Or do you only work certain days? Either way looks warm... and green still! It's been white here for a while. Ground is froze fairly hard too.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2016)

nearly done with the job, though I do only log 4 days a week, still have a day job, but its part time now.

There is a reason this is the evergreen state... that and all the kanikanik other wise, lots of fall color this year, only frozen a couple of times so far.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 7, 2016)

So the vid from last week is still on a smurt fone that currently has several calk shaped holes in the screen

But here's todays vid


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2016)

Nice clean work. Maybe think about bidding on some of our smaller sales, so's we can get some of that. Not to say that our usual contractors don't do excellent work, too, just, y'know, the more the merrier.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 8, 2016)

Gub-a-mint has a reg where I can't do any export for at least 2 years. 

So that reg right there kind of shoots me and anyone else around here in the foot, Looked into it a while back, and I've been doing less export lately, but there is only one place that takes everything, and thats the exporter, so if i have a mixed load, it gets exported... Stupid rule...


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2016)

No exports here. Fed land. Just sayin'.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 8, 2016)

yeah... thats muh point, to log yer particular fed land, I can't do any business with an exporter for 2 years... kind a stupid really, its one thing to say hey no selling this wood to jiiinah, but to demand I don't sell other wood to jiiinah kind a BS. 

So for now, no fed work fer me.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2016)

A little update on this particular job...

Got all the slash removed yesterday, minus on stump and little brush.

4 loads there abouts in a 60 yd end dump, I figure I burned 3 loads.

Most of the pulp type wood ended up getting cut for fire wood by friends neighbors and family, which is fine cause I didn't feel like limbing any of it.

Still a dumper truck load ish of fire wood I intend to either bring home, or sell to a neighbor for cheap.

And one gyppo trailer load of cedar, probably around 1mbf maybe a little more, but I'm waiting on tires for the dumper truck (yes its on blocks in the front yard...)

All told I'm into the slash disposal right around $3000, would have been closer to $6000 if I hadn't burned everything, and gods knows how much if the 7-8 cords hadn't been cut out of the tops and the ceder bow guys hadn't taken 4 loads of limbs.

Get the ole dumper truck moving again and I can start moving equipment out.


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## woodfarmer (Dec 7, 2016)

I've watched all your videos on this project, why did the customer want every tree removed? What's the distance between the trees that are left and the lake?


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2016)

They are building a house and shop, with drain field and extended driveway on a little under 1/2 acre. 

The lake is actually on the other side of the road, Puget Sound, is about a mile on the other side of the tree line, not sure of the passage, but its about where Camano and Whidbey Is would have a convenient ferry line, except for that whole shallow water thing.

The lake is just another half acre parcel away though, when I was on boards cutting that co-dom I could see the water.

County decided that the back 75 feet or so would be left standing because there is a gully there that could potentially have water and therefore, because of the Oso slide, the trees can't be cut... This gully is about 60' deep and 200' wide, far from any kind of slide danger, but that is gub-a-mint for ya.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 7, 2016)

Took another vid mon night, but it doesn't show much, gonna get my equipment moved and take another one that way everything is out of the way.


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## madhatte (Dec 8, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> County decided that the back 75 feet or so would be left standing because there is a gully there that could potentially have water and therefore, because of the Oso slide, the trees can't be cut... This gully is about 60' deep and 200' wide, far from any kind of slide danger, but that is gub-a-mint for ya.



At least it's the County, for once, recognizing their culpability. Now all they need is a GIS department and a geologist and administrators who trust their experts and make decisions accordingly. Same goes for Lewis County. They're still backfilling the floodplain and playing dumb as out-of-state money fills the coffers.


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## slowp (Dec 8, 2016)

madhatte said:


> At least it's the County, for once, recognizing their culpability. Now all they need is a GIS department and a geologist and administrators who trust their experts and make decisions accordingly. Same goes for Lewis County. They're still backfilling the floodplain and playing dumb as out-of-state money fills the coffers.



Yes. Lewis County has allowed more fill to be dumped in a wetland where the box stores flooded. I like the Sonic Burgers, but are they worth diverting water to somewhere else, like a neighborhood? They've added or are in the process of adding these necessary businesses (all on fill dirt) Sonic, Dutch Bros. Coffee (there's already a Starbucks in the vicinity) and a Taco Bell. But wait, they've built access roads in that area so more fill can be added and more fast food outlets built! Apparently, two McDs, a Wendy's, a Taco Something, new Sonic, and Startbuck's are not enough. All are within one block of each other. 

We should be planting trees and "restoring" what is left of that area.


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## northmanlogging (Dec 8, 2016)

Well thats the thing, I don't believe they are culpable, the council totally overreacted to the Oso slide, blamed logging, and wont hear anything other reason. Keep in mind they instated these new rules just a few months after the slide, pushed em through because of the slide.

Meanwhile geologist hadn't settled on a reason for the slide. 

2 years later or so, the geologist, hydrologist, and other ologist came to the conclusion that logging had little to do with that particlular slide and that it was do to the nature of the unstable slope, massive amounts of rainfall, and the river undercutting the bank...

Some slopes yes should be left forested, this however is not one of them.


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## madhatte (Dec 8, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> 2 years later or so, the geologist, hydrologist, and other ologist came to the conclusion that logging had little to do with that particlular slide and that it was do to the nature of the unstable slope, massive amounts of rainfall, and the river undercutting the bank...
> 
> Some slopes yes should be left forested, this however is not one of them.



That's exactly my point about having a GIS dept and a geologist and trusting them and making decisions accordingly. Overreacting is not trusting your specialists.


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## Joe46 (Dec 11, 2016)

Overreacting seems to be the SOP now days as common sense becomes more uncommon.


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