# What makes a GOOD groundman?



## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

I was working with some new groundies the other day. I was thinking how nice it would be to have a list of things that a groundie should know. Something they could take home and peruse at their leisure.
I was gonna try and do it all myself, but I thought I would let the members here add their 2 cents. After the thread winds down, I'll compile them and come up with something.
Try to keep them in numerical order to expedite the compliation later, if ya'll don't mind.
Heres my first submission;

1) Groundmen should ALLWAYS be aware of what the climbers rope is doing. Look for a belly in the rope, tangles, and hang-ups.


Alrighty then... Lets hear it!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 23, 2004)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7587&highlight=groundman

I think there are probably 2 more threads like this


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## matthias (Apr 23, 2004)

How about:

The ground man should look up at the cutter every 15-20 seconds or so whether they hear a chainsaw cutting or not.


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## blue (Apr 23, 2004)

2
always look up at the climber when entering the LZ

3
make sure you know how many sugars the climber has in tea/coffee


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by blue _
> *2
> always look up at the climber when entering the LZ
> 
> ...



Or how much coffee "I'll have the quadshot late with extra camel and soy milk!"


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## TimberMcPherson (Apr 23, 2004)

*climber groundie*

I think the best groundie is another climber on the ground, I climb with a guy who has about 8 years experience. We barely have to talk, although we do discuss options alot. We take turns climbing and sometimes we both climb. Gotta say it rocks


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## NeTree (Apr 23, 2004)

Show up...


on time...


sober.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Or how much coffee "I'll have the quadshot late with extra camel and soy milk!" *




is that coffee or food for the next NASA mission


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 23, 2004)

BRING YOUR BRAIN to work and leave your attitude at home!!!!!!!!

that would go for all employees not just groundies


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## jkrueger (Apr 23, 2004)

Know knots.
Love tress and want to know more.
Be sober, and tell the truth or I'll bomb you on purpose.

Jack


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## matthias (Apr 23, 2004)

Aknowledge the homeowner/customer. Regardless how busy you are (or pretending to be) if the owner shows up in the middle of a job and you know it, at least smile and wave. If you have time reassure them that everything is going fine whether they ask or not. It'll help when they see that you've wrecked their flowers and scratched their fence.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by matthias _
> * scratched their fence. *



na mate we like to realy flatten um..


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## Tree Machine (Apr 23, 2004)

*This stuff's pretty new to me*

Right on, Squirrel. I do all my lowering from up in the tree, and nobody on the ground needs to run a saw ('cept maybe a Silky). That means just about anyone can be my ground guy, start him out stacking and staging brush, and we chip everything in a session as a team. You don't have to know ANYTHING close to rocket science to work with me. Just follow the team's advice, up above, and we'll do really well together

Hustle is nice. Good working attitude is even nicer. Bring your own lunch. Be alert and careful. Accidents are dealt with by flogging. -TM-


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## BigJohn (Apr 23, 2004)

Belly in the rope. What do you want them to do with this belly pull it out? I hope not. You pull my belly out I'm gonna get pissed. I hate all the weight on my rope. I would have to say just keep it clear of brush and tangle free. A good ground man never keeps the climber waiting. Dont ever start limbing up a piece and not untie the rope and give it back to climber. Don't hold the climber up. Don't stand there and stare at the climber its not a circus its a job. Don't soft lock pieces up in the air. Don't try and move 1000 pound pieces while they are up in the air on hanging on the rope. You wont get them far just put the ???? down and keep going. Don't get my saws dull especially if I am going to need one of them later. Don't put my climbing line through the chipper or cut it. Tie tools on so they can be untied and taken off easily in an order. Run when I say headache cause If and when I do say it I mean it. Don't come under the tree when I am sliceing and chucking cause I am not stoping. Always take a wrap on the same tree we are removing. If there is a porta wrap set up use it never say ahh its not that big I got it and if you do and I can I will send you for a ride. Always be ready and pull the top line out of the way so a notch can be made. Keep a steady pull don't pretend your pulling and not be. My guys do this all time. Your cutting and end up cutting a bit too far cause they weren't even pulling at all. You know it will go and they're pulling so you think so you keep cutting. When working down a spar untie the lowering line tie a knot and send it back. The rope is alot lighter single line to work with and don't have to guess what side to pull up. Don't trump down the customers bushes and flowers and lower brush ontop of them on purpose. Put the gas and oil caps on tight. 

Thats about all I can think of for now. I'm getting worked up just thinking about the bad groundies.


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## ORclimber (Apr 23, 2004)

A good groundman is in command of the drop zone. Keeping pedestrians out and alerting the climber when anyone or vehicles are approaching.

Along with the being professional entry I'd add specific points. Cause if you don't spell it out, they may not get it. No use of profanity, no derogatory comments about anyone. No leaving garbage in the yard, that includes cigarette butts. 

A good groundman always puts tools back on the truck right where they found them, and doesn't leave doors on the truck open. 

A good groundman has a valid drivers license


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: This stuff's pretty new to me*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *Right on, Squirrel. I do all my lowering from up in the tree, and nobody on the ground needs to run a saw ('cept maybe a Silky). That means just about anyone can be my ground guy, start him out stacking and staging brush, and we chip everything in a session as a team. You don't have to know ANYTHING close to rocket science to work with me. Just follow the team's advice, up above, and we'll do really well together
> 
> Hustle is nice. Good working attitude is even nicer. Bring your own lunch. Be alert and careful. Accidents are dealt with by flogging. -TM- *





Cool! You just gave me 9, 10 and 11!

This might be more work than I envisioned! 


Big John, you gave me 12, 13, and 14.

ORClimber, 15, 16, and 17.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *I had a job today doing a removal for a landscraper, I've only climbed for him once before but the previous time was just some light pruning. He told me he figured it would take 5-6 hours for me, and he had $300 budgeted for the climber. He said he could handle the roping for me but I suggested I bring my own groundman and pay him out of my $300. He was fine with that so Steve and I put that tree on the ground in 2:15. 80% of the canopy was roped down so I needed someone I could TRUST on the rope. Steve kept the landscrapers from walking into my landing zone and kept the ropes away from their chainsaws.
> 
> If I had let the landscrapers handle the ropes, it would have taken me 6 hours to remove the tree and EVERYBODY would have known how unhappy I would have been. Instead I walked in less than 2 1/2 hours with everybody happy because I had an excellent groundman. *





Nice post, Brian. That is exactly why I started this thread.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

Nobody has an 18 to submit?


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## NeTree (Apr 23, 2004)

18.

If you see the boss running....


TRY TO KEEP UP.


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## Dadatwins (Apr 23, 2004)

#19 If I point at the corner bus stop and say bye, you just screwed up big time, do not ask why , do not ask about pay, just go. 

For #4 I would add be able to tie and UNTIE knots with out the use of knives, keys, screwdrivers, or  teeth.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 23, 2004)

12 e : when using a pulley *allways* put a stopper knot in the working end of the rope. *donot* pull it up till told to. I will not be happy if I have to climb up to get/reset the rigging line!

2b let the climber know when you enter the DZ. Don't enter unless you get a responce.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

*Cool.*

This is just a rough draft, fellas.

Keep em coming!!!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> *For #4 I would add be able to tie and UNTIE knots with out the use of knives, keys, screwdrivers, or  teeth. *



I would add "be willing to take a short hank of rope home to practice knots."


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

John, a properly tied knot can usually be untied w/o tools, save maybe a marlin spike device for the heavy loads.

And I don't agree that all the oral communication between climber/groundman is necessary EVERY time a groundie enters the DZ. I maintain that it is a visual thing.

I do agree with the stopper knot thing. The post will reflect it.


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## kevintree (Apr 23, 2004)

The National Arborisic Association know called TCIA has an excellent video program for groundman. Answers most of above
comments. We use it w/ great sucess and are looking to buy in Spanish

Kevin


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

I'm gonna hand this stuff to my groundmen MONDAY.

:angel:


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## Dadatwins (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I'm gonna hand this stuff to my groundmen MONDAY.
> 
> :angel: *



I hope they do not hit you with #19


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

Wheres 19?


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## Dadatwins (Apr 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> *#19 If I point at the corner bus stop and say bye, you just screwed up big time, do not ask why , do not ask about pay, just go.
> 
> For #4 I would add be able to tie and UNTIE knots with out the use of knives, keys, screwdrivers, or  teeth. *


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## Dadatwins (Apr 23, 2004)

Good list MB, how about being specific on keeping all the chainsaws gased and ready. Nothing worse than moving up to a bigger saw and having to wait for groundman to go out to the truck for gas and oil. Gas' em all when we get there and keep them full.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 23, 2004)

Alrighty then! Thats 18!

Keep em coming, I gotta go to bed. Full day tomorrow!


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 23, 2004)

(A) If your afraid of heights, but was hired anyway, and you dont like to climb, its okay. Learn these rules and accept the fact that a good groundman is as worthy as a good climber.

(B) Try to anticipate what the climber will need and when. However, dont bug the climber w/ 'suggestions' unless asked for them.

(C) Start the trim saw BEfore you send it up.

(D) When lowering limbs and I saw 'STOP', I mean 'STOP!'. Dont wait until the f'n limb gets hung up in a crotch to realize "Uhhhh, Duhhhh, I's thinkin' 'e sai' stop?".

(E) Standing around on a job site while the boss is gone will be noticed. When its pointed out, dont try to make excusses. Most times they wont be believed.

(F) Make sure you put the gas in the "GAS" tank and the oil in the "OIL" tank. Not vice-versa as the saw wont run long. (I actually had this happen several yrs back. The two groundies argued for weeks as to which one did it)

Thats about it for now. Great List!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 24, 2004)

Youse guys is the laziest bunch of god for nothing climbers I ever heard whine about their help.
You got the groundies doing just about everything except climbing up and making the cuts.
If you want your rope to stay out of the chipper, keep it with you. If you want a brake on some of the limbs, set it up before you go up or put the brake up in the tree with you. If you don't want to have to worry about knots, do a knotless system. 
I could take an eigth grade girl to work and be fine on any removal. 
Ground personal should not be replacement for climbing skills.
(snip).


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 24, 2004)

yea, and after you tossed your bid by having to teach her EVERY thing, youd hand her the list too.

Im not ?????ing about my ground help most of the time. The do help make jobs profitable. But, GOOD help can be hard to find. Not many guys want to huff brush for 8 bucks an hour. Its hard work and when the feel underapreciated, laziness sets in.

You cant say when you hire someone new, you dont spend hours 'training' them with these very same comments. be honest.

I remember being the groundie and im just passing on those things that were told to me. many of the other list items were passed to me also.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

seems to me you guys want your groundman to do everything. but yet you dont pay them much. maybe if you guys paid them for doing all your work you would'nt be pissing and moaning about how you cant get good help.


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## Gord (Apr 24, 2004)

#) If you see something that you don't think I've already noticed, speak up. Within reason.


#) Clear the drag path before you start dragging. Move anything that may get knocked over, damaged etc. DON'T leave the gas and oil anywhere close to the LZ or the drag path.


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## Nathan Wreyford (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *seems to me you guys want your groundman to do everything. but yet you dont pay them much. maybe if you guys paid them for doing all your work you would'nt be pissing and moaning about how you cant get good help. *



I have always expected good ground help. In Austin the going rate was $8/hr. English optional. I paid minimum $12 and a few guys $18. In exchange I expected them to get it done and to think. Yes, I AM paying you to think. What I got in return was a ground crew that could make my life easier.

Some of the best help I had spoke only spanish. Good, less chit chat between us, and more working. When it came time to lower a piece, no talking necessary, they knew how many wraps and how to or not to let it run.

I found you get what you pay for. Pay $8/hr, and you get jug heads that make your day longer and more stressful. 

.02

Groundman is a hard job, I wouldn't do it 

Bodenmench


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

*Man this list is getting long!*

TreeCo, you gave me 19 and 20.

OakTreeDude, I worked your advice into 14, 15, and 18.

Gord? 21.

Mike Mass and Husky372, thanks for NOTHING! 


Any groundie that follows these rules WON'T be low paid for very long.


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 24, 2004)

The groundie should also know what the word "TIMBERRRR!" means and stays in the clear and out of the bite.
John


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

*Thanks, John*

Thats no. 22!


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 24, 2004)

Although that goontree looked small in the vid, here's a jpeg of it. It's now in my woodstove.
John


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 24, 2004)

*Re: Man this list is getting long!*



> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *.
> 
> Mike Mass and Husky372, thanks for NOTHING!
> ...



We make valuable contributions to your little gripe thread, and you tear us down. 

And as for pay, your ground b1tch going to make more than you? I don't think so...


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

Go play in another thread.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 24, 2004)

OK MB, you go ahead and try to replace proper safety and job training for your crew with a list of complaints made up on the internet.

Here's mine: 

27. Don't go in my truck and steal stuff from my lunchbox while I'm up the tree.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

masterblaster this is'nt the first thread where i've seen nothing but a bunch of whinning about ground help. thats why i say rule #1 treat your help well they will treat you the same. if you pay them crap thats the kind of help your going to get. becuase they are there only for a paycheck. the way i see it treat a man like a dog he's going to piss on your leg. lets see $8hr 10hr day or 12hr 10hr day thats only 40 dollars more a day


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## NeTree (Apr 24, 2004)

Butch, you have to admit there are alot of guys out there who really do expect the groundies to do pretty much everything for practically no pay.

I agree... you get what you pay for. I start them at $10, and the more they are willing to learn, make the job go faster, etc, the more they make. If they can help me blast out a $1500 job in 4 hours, you betcha I got no sweat giving them a nice bonus. Take care of the good help, they'll take care of you.

So, I guess that's another.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *
> And I don't agree that all the oral communication between climber/groundman is necessary EVERY time a groundie enters the DZ. I maintain that it is a visual thing.
> 
> *



I did not specify voice communincation, visual is fine,; eye contact and a nod of the head. Just make sure the climber knows your down there, or a designated ground captain says it's ok. 

As the climber imporves he will be able to know that the guy in the tree is moving around and not going to drop something, The new guy may not realize I'm getting comfortable to chuck a bunch of stuff down.


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## ORclimber (Apr 24, 2004)

Why is a job description whining? 

Talk is cheap, but whiskey costs money.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

like i said before this is not the first thread where you guys are complaining cant find good help. but then alls you want to do is pay them barely anything and expect them to do most of the work. lets put it this way you work a job make $1500 in 4 hours and they make $32 do you really expect them to give a rats ass about busting there ass for you, or care about your equipment. threat a man with respect i bet you will find someone who will bust his ass for you. 
now i'm not saying you have to give up all your profits but if you expect a decent days work pay a decent wage. like someone else said earlier you get what you pay for. you have no problm going out and spending several hundred on a saw but you dont even want to pay the guy whos running it what the saws worth. granted you have time money and experiance tide up in your bus but if the guy can work at wal-mart or mcdonlds for the same money and not have to work as hard or get yelled at all the time where do you think there going to work.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *like i said ... *



Who's whining?

What do you think the ground is suposed to do?

Of course the better they perform the better they should get paid.

Brush dragger is an entry level position, should they start at 15/hr? What do they get paid as they learn how to handle ropes?

Any good climber will tell you that the good grounding will make them shine.


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## NeTree (Apr 24, 2004)

On the other hand...

I'll gladly pay my groundie half of what I make on the job, if...

He pays half the overhead. 

That means equipment purchase and repair, advertising, fuel, maintainance, insurances, taxes, etc etc etc...


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

you cant do your job without a groundman! and no i'm not saying they should be started out at 15hr but 8hr is basicly min wage 10-12hr i bet you will fine a better class of workers. they can get at lest that going into construction. so take it for what its worth.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

you guys have (snip) . you cant read what i was saying i said i dont expect you to give up all your profit just pay a man what hes worth you'll be better off in the long run. but as far as i'm concernd its your bus do what you want.


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## NeTree (Apr 24, 2004)

Naw, I know what yer saying.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 24, 2004)

*Now Hiring*

I paid a groundie $20 and hour for a few weeks last Winter, thinking that it would be an incentive to 1) show up on time 2) bring your lunch 3) work well because you're being paid well. He only lasted three weeks.

This experient failed miserably. Much better luck paying 12.50 - 15 an hour, filling groundie's gas tank on Wednesday, and buy him lunch on Friday. Bonuses for great work, positive verbal feedback, and regular incentives seem to be working, though I am very fresh, new and inexperienced at this employment game.

I like Timber McPherson's current situation. Two competent climbers acting as each other's climber / groundguy. For $25 an hour, plus insurances and medical..... Please apply within. -TM-


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## jamie (Apr 24, 2004)

*you are all rong*

hey, maybe its not the fault of the guy on the ground, maybe its just you  

jamie


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

*Hmmmm...*

A lotta posts, but nothing to add to the list. 

This isn't a "How much should a groundman make" thread.

Look at the list. Look for something that needs changed or expounded on.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 24, 2004)

Keep the saws off the pavement, sidewalk, patio decks etc... they leak oil!!!!!!!


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

sorry butch did'nt mean to hijack your thread i was only trying to say that if you pay well you will get good help. again my apologies butch.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

I worked that into 14, Murphy.

It does suck that groundies make so little, but the ones that deserve the higher pay usually eventually get it.

Usually...


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## kurtztree (Apr 24, 2004)

Dont cut the dirt we aren't laying underground wires roll the log if it's to close to the ground. Otherwise I'll have to take away your raise. I have some very stupid groundmen right now.


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## Ax-man (Apr 24, 2004)

Hey Butch how about this one for your list.

Be able to set up and tension a speed line on the ground, and know how to use it. Little advanced for most ground men, but a good one should be able to set one up on the ground end if they have some of the skills already mentioned.

Variations to this would be a 2:1 MA system to help pull a big lead over, that one man would have a little trouble with.

Another would be to be able to set up a two way speed line with a retrievable pulley set up. 

Another would be how to best set up the floating crotch, again using two or three ropes and a pulley.

In addition to what MM, Husky, Netree and others have said. I think what it boils down to on an individual basis, weather they climb or work the ground, one has to have a love and a passion for this work, because otherwise you just won't excel at it, no matter what kind of money your getting paid to do it.

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

Kurtztree, 24

Axeman, 28

Tommy D just turned me on to the idea of submitting this to TCI. That sounds like an excellent idea. I'll be freaking famous! I can retire and just write...  

Please! Keep em coming! This is yur beeotch thread!

And my retirement plan...


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## Ax-man (Apr 24, 2004)

Butch, 

I wouldn't hang up your climbing line just yet.

The old NAA , had an actual book out on this very same topic.

I don't exactly remember what it was called, maybe some one else remembers this one??????. I gave my copy to some guy to read and of course it never found it's way back to me.

Go ahead and write on, we could use a nice refresher on this subject.

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

Yea, thats cool... but this will probably be a 'lil different!


Don't forget to go back and re-check my 2nd post. I edit it as this thread progresses.

Please feel free to point out sp errors...


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

looks like by your list there masterblaster you want someone with 5 years+ experince. good luck


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *you cant do your job without a groundman! and no i'm not saying they should be started out at 15hr but 8hr is basicly min wage 10-12hr i bet you will fine a better class of workers. they can get at lest that going into construction. so take it for what its worth. *



So actually you're ranting about nothing. Because sobody here said anything about paying minimum.

Heck, over here you cannot get someone to answer an add for under 12/hr.

One of my buddys was advertising last year and people would not interview for less then 15+ bennies. That is people without any prior experiance.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

i did'nt intend to rant. i was just saying that if you pay a decent wage you should get the right people. i also said this is'nt the first thread that you guys have pissed and moaned about ground help. so maybe its not all the groundmans problm.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

*Geez bro!*



> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *looks like by your list there masterblaster you want someone with 5 years+ experince. good luck *




The whole point of this thread is for me come up with some hard copy I can simply hand to a new worker and they can take it home and check it out. I don't expect them to absorb it overnight, but at least they will have a better understanding of what is expected from a GOOD GROUNDMAN.

You could make it a game, of sorts. As they learned various procedures, they could be checked off, or whatnot. Who knows? Heck, I pay groundies $20 to learn a bowline... remember that thread? 

Or, it could be taken to the next level. It could be documented in the employee's folder and used as criteria for pay increases.

Anyway, I think this might be cool.


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

i was under the impression that you guys expect these guys to know all this stuff from the beginning. i'll just stay out of it for now on.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 24, 2004)

Hey is that Dave Bryant your dogs got up a tree?


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

coon


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *i was under the impression that you guys expect these guys to know all this stuff from the beginning. i'll just stay out of it for now on. *



Don't stay out, offer some suggestions!



Poor racoon!


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

i'm not an arborist so anything else i have to offer would'nt be worth much. but i do like your idea about paying a guy to learn certian things. is most definatly a good incentive.

not all are shoot most are just treed by me anyway.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky372 _
> *
> not all are shoot most are just treed by me anyway. *



Do you eat them?


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## Husky372 (Apr 24, 2004)

rocky if you dont like what i have to say dont read it. and i was not trying to tell you anything just saying from what i have seen on other threads alot of you guys arent paying much but sure expect alot.

john no never have eaten coon but i know people who have. i just take the hide if i shoot one which is'nt often dead coon leave no tracks.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

Husky, to be honest, I wuz wondering the same thing myself.

And coon tastes dam good!


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## a_lopa (Apr 24, 2004)

there are few good groundies the way us guys like them to be,ive come down now to some basic rules.1 they must really need the money2 you must pay ok that can variey100-300 pr day on persons aptitude3 they must be able to think,to some that is not possible they can only be used on jobs where there is big amounts of hogging4when you get to this one revert to rule 2 and pay someone what they are worth for you for the day min 8yrs experience sorry not biased but for the sake of paying100-200 more a day to think and do 50% less is worth it.mb a good groundies just cant be taught they have to learn


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

I will admit this is my fantasy groundman, but this will at least give me some basic rules and regs for newbies to follow.

I'm not asking them to do anything I wouldn't do if I was them.

Are we running outta suggestions? Drying up?


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## NeTree (Apr 24, 2004)

Dress and act presentable. They are the one new prospects are likely to talk to first, since the owner is likely to be the guy out of reach. Don't swear like you're in the dive down the street. Act like you're in church.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

I worked most of that into 8 for ya, Erik.


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## a_lopa (Apr 24, 2004)

actually good people skills,presentation would be good,although im not that good at that myself ha ha,being able to drive truck and back chipper to where its got to be is a big one,i supose being able to think is best, last groundie i was paying charity to couldnt remember the two loops to attach my saw to life line after refill after being shown a hundred times i knew it was all over when he was holding the correct loop with his fingers closed thru it saying ''i dont understand''at least showing them the wrap doesnt take long as they get hot fingeys to remind them


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## murphy4trees (Apr 24, 2004)

How about driving/operating truck and chipper... backing up a chipper and operating a stump grinder... taking apart and putting fences back together and repairing turf...
I heard adjusting chain.. did anybody mention replacing chain... cleaning bar and sprocket area... sharpening a saw comes in handy too...
setting up a 3:1 z rig.. using midline knots...
Being comfortable working a pull and lowering line at the same time..
belaying a climber by pulling on the tail of his climbing line (advancing the friction hitch)... Butch wouldn't know a thing about that though!!!!!!!!!!
using a pole sawpole pruner to pull hangers/prune lower branches and deadwood... therefore must understand target pruning
did anybody mention using a bigshot or cutting notches and felling trees???..
Good eye for aesthetics... making good calls on questionable cuts when the climber asks "how this look?"
Same for judging landing zone and clearance on felling a tree...
More later if you like???


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## a_lopa (Apr 24, 2004)

true daniel but if they can do that 99%of them will be able climbers and will be advertising themselves


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

*Geez Murph!*

We've 30 already, we don't wanna turn a light read into War and Peace. A lot of what you mentioned is already covered, but I read a few that I can work into something.
And you're asking a newbie groundhand to be expected to do a lot of advanced techniques. But, eventually, they should.

Then, they become climbers!


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## a_lopa (Apr 24, 2004)

come on stick to the subject rocky,what do you require in a groundie???


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *come on stick to the subject rocky,what do you require in a groundie??? *




I was thinking the same thing. 


Murphy, I worked your suggestions into 17, 18, 24, and 26.

You said you had some more? Lay em on me,

Just don't get TOO detailed... thats MY part.


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## a_lopa (Apr 24, 2004)

if there are some decent sized wheels left after a removal they are to be ripped in two that always leaves a good impression


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 24, 2004)

a little off thread here going back to groundie pay: $15/hr for a groundie????!!!!!!!!!???????

HOLY SH*T!!!!

Ive been climbing for 9 1/2 yrs, ISA Cert., 4 yrs college and I dont make that! 

Maybe I need to move? Especially since some out there are paying in Gold. 

Id be your best groundie for $15 (granted cost of living was comparable). It'd save a lot of the crap I put up with sometimes.


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## Ax-man (Apr 24, 2004)

How about something on what to do in case of an emergency.

I'm not talking about an aerial rescue, but let's just say a climber cuts himself, but is still able to get to the ground. A good ground man should know that the first thing to do is make a bee- line for the first aid kit, render some kind of first aid to the climber to avoid shock or at least minimize it, call 911 if needed or send some one for help.

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 24, 2004)

Thanks Larry, thats now 31.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 25, 2004)

knowing the difference between phone, cable and electric lines and how to drop phone and cable lines..

pruning shrubs by hand... not with hedge trimmers

digging/moving shrubs and perrenials

basic tree identification 

making tobacco offerings and talking to the trees and nature spirits

have a good eye for other work or tree problems on the property

walking the roof to clean it and the gutters


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 25, 2004)

How about arranging your list a little more logically. Start with showing up sober and end with the hard stuff like roping or not dulling the topping saw. Sequence it like a day of work.

In the roping section, speaking of that, new guys always want to stand in line of the swing where they might get hit, and have the rope wrapped around their hand real good. LOL

I also disagree with the unrgency of lowering asap. I would perfer a new guy have complete control, lowering slowly so it doesnt burn the rope, hit gutters, or get hung up on the way down. There are some jobs where the peices can be lowered fast, and some cut where it _needs_ to be dropped fast, but from a safety perspective and in the interest of control, slow is better. It also reduces the chance of huge dynamic loads.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 25, 2004)

> I also disagree with the unrgency of lowering asap. I would perfer a new guy have complete control, lowering slowly so it doesnt burn the rope, hit gutters, or get hung up on the way down. There are some jobs where the peices can be lowered fast, and some cut where it needs to be dropped fast, but from a safety perspective and in the interest of control, slow is better. It also reduces the chance of huge dynamic loads.



Point taken MM... and I think it is a matter of symantics...
get the piece on the ground as as fast as possible without sacraficing safety or control...

On that note how about letting a lowerred piece swing out over obstacle and then drop lowering line in perfect time to let it run to ground before swinging back..


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## kowens (Apr 25, 2004)

*chipper*

http://www.stonegrooves.net/chipper.html

if ground men can't read just look at decals on chipper
i can't count the times i have had to fly out of tree to stop this from happening
1when feeding chipper no lose clothing no watches just make suer you are wareing nothing that brush can grab and pull you into chipper


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

The list is a rough draft. If you haven't noticed it by now, I've added to it as this thread has progressed. The numbers are not in order for the time being. Remember Mike... rough draft.

Again, I want to emphazize that I don't want to go into extreme detail concerning the advanced techniques. And least not at this time. Maybe later.

And yes, there is still a lot that can be added to the existing points, and plenty of new ones still to be thought up!



Kowens, you gave me 33!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Remember Mike... rough draft.
> 
> *



Note to self: Mb can't take cirticism. LOL

Don't stand in line with the swing and don't wrap the bull rope around your hand, are the first two things I say to a new guy. Then I ask his or her name.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

Thanks Mike. I'll work that and Murphys suggestions into it later.

I gotta go to work!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 25, 2004)

I was wondering about some of the suggestions coming of late. More in line of a crew leader, or ground captain if the climber is the lead, then a groundman.

I would say the z rig, speedline and such would fall into show a willing ness to learn techniques that are not often used, but can add to productivity when the situation allows.


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## Climbing mike (Apr 25, 2004)

Most of the time I have found that the climber does most of the driving (which is me) The other guys dont pay attention to where we are going or even what part of town we are in. If I was to get hurt and they called 911 from our cell phones it would probably take a while to find out where I am. Pay attention to where the job is, dont try to sleep in the truck on the way to the job. 
Mabey add some of this to #31



Great thread, MB

Mike


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 25, 2004)

Kenny had a good thread on that a while back.

He has an Emergency Responce card kept with the work orders (laminated to a clipboard?) with procedure for 911 calls and pertinant contact info.

1. check address
2. call 911
3. identify yoursdelf
4. give situation eg injured climber in tree
5. give address, contact phone numbers incase of disconnect.


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## ORclimber (Apr 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Climbing mike _
> *Most of the time I have found that the climber does most of the driving (which is me) The other guys dont pay attention to where we are going or even what part of town we are in. If I was to get hurt and they called 911 from our cell phones it would probably take a while to find out where I am. Pay attention to where the job is, dont try to sleep in the truck on the way to the job.
> *



Oh yea. I like a second set of eyes while driving for checking blind spots or checking road signs. It makes for a more efficient drive through rush hour in a loaded chip truck.

I believe it is an OSHA reg that the crew knows the work address and where the nearest ER is.


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## ORclimber (Apr 25, 2004)

Probably part of #8, but know how to unclog a chipper.

If someone asks for a bid, be courteous, give them a card, and take down contact information. Job security 

Is job security an oxymoron?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 25, 2004)

*Nothin left to do but smile, smile smile.*

Smile? Drop what you're doing, given that you're not in the middle of something hairy, and approach the potential client, smiling, well outside of the DZ. That can be worked into the list under 'courteous and attentive to customers', and is in conjunction with OR's suggestion just above.

This is about the first thing I ask of a newbie, because a new potential client walking up is likely to happen sooner than the first limb coming down. Then I show him how to get me out of a tree (rescue) from the ground if something were to go wrong upstairs. Then we start work. More instruction comes per context-dependent moment.

Pretty lame as far as a training and safety program, but I've only just begun hiring guys of late, and I'm eagerly learning and want to do it right. I appreciate you spiking my learning curve.

Thank you for the list. It will be implemented day one of my next employee hire (and I'm hiring......) -TM-


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## Dadatwins (Apr 25, 2004)

List is starting to good MB have a lot of stuff on there that I take for granted after 20+ years but I guess it would be good to hand out to someone as a refresher. Sad that you can't REQUIRE a groundman to have common sense and bring it to the job because that would make the list much shorter. I see mention of stowing away the gear but think everyone on the ground should also know where all the gear is before the job starts. Especially you guys that contract climb and might have a different crew every time. Most guys lay out whatever they need before job but always good to point out where other tools / gear might be.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

*How to be a GOOD Groundman*

1) Groundmen should ALWAYS be aware of what the climbers rope is doing. Look for a belly in the rope, tangles, and hang-ups. Don't jerk on the rope and throw the climber off balance. Keep climbing gear and ropes stored away from each other. Sharp/greasy equipment should never come in contact with climbing gear. Climbers should use gaff guards, and you should help to insure they stay secured.

2) Always keep your eye on the climber when entering the drop-zone. Use your ears to hear telltale sounds. Be alert. Don't walk around with blinders on... employ a Tiger Eye. Use all the PPE that is required for the job.

3) Show up for work on time and sober. Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. If you cannot make it to work, CALL as soon as you realize it. DON'T leave a crew shorthanded without some kind of advance notice.

4) At the very least learn how to tie a bowline and a clove hitch. Get a piece of rope to TAKE HOME and PRACTICE.

5) When backing up a vehicle, always have a spotter. If someone runs over something because you were checking out the hotties, guess who's fault it really is. Beware of eaves and wires. Watch for septic tanks. Don't get the truck stuck. Know when you need to pad in, and do it. Whenever possible before leaving the shop, discuss with the drivers the best truck placements for when you all arrive at the jobsite. Try to call ahead to insure all civillian vehicles are out of the way for when you get there.

6) NEVER leave gear anywhere it can be run over. Set the gear next to a tree, a building, or somewhere safe. Remember what gear is used and where you have set it. Don't go off and forget about/loose it. If you're in a place where gear can be stolen, keep an eye on it. Lock your sidebins. Never leave a sidebin open, especially on the passenger side.

7) Learn how to communicate with your fellow workers without having to hear every time. Hand signals, lip reading, simple common sense. Learn how to 'read' the situation at hand. Respond accordingly.

8) Be friendly and courteous with the customers you are working for. That also extends to your fellow workers. Nobody likes a Grumpy Gus. Be motivited, and a self-starter... set the pace for the newbies to follow. IMPRESS THE CUSTOMER! Dress and act professionally. You are representing the company that is signing your paycheck. When your clothes are worn out, chunk em!

9) Listen to the climber, follow the instructions provided. If you're not clear on something don't proceed until you are... even if it means shutting the chipper down just so you can HEAR. Have a pre-climb talk with the climber about anything you're not sure of. Learn to work as a team. Not just with the climber, but with the entire crew.

10) Arrive at work PREPARED! Have your lunch, gloves, fresh T-shirt, whatever. DON"T always expect a 'stop at the store'. Eat a good breakfast, and have a nice BM BEFORE you leave the house. Learn how to tie your laces to where they don't come undone.

11) Keep a positive, motivated work ethic! Don't whine and complain about every little thing. Hustle when you move. Walk one way, run the other. Hurry-up every chance you get. NEVER drag just one limb... remember Conan? On the wheel? Find a 'cradle' limb, and neatly stack/windrow the brush on it. On the last drag, throw your final rakings on.

12) When roping a limb;
a) Get the limb ON THE GROUND ASAP! Don't tear up eaves, landscaping, or burn the rope, but get it on the ground. Employ a minimum of cutting to do this, and keep overhead cutting to a MINIMUM! Use a power pruner when possible.
b) Get the knot untied QUICKLY, and get the rope back to the climber ASAP! Whoever has the chainsaw(in a 2 man operation), the OTHER man controls the limb and UNTIES THE KNOT. If its just one groundman, set the saw down ASAP and untie the knot.
And get the rope back to the climber!
c) Do not take a wrap on any other tree except the one that is being climbed... except in rare instances. The climber will tell you when. And USE your friction device, If for any other reason than to keep the bullrope running flat against the tree. Do not wrap it around any bodypart you aren't willing to lose. And wear gloves. This will help you to keep from taking too many wraps on the porty. DO NOT OVERWRAP IF THE CLIMBER SAYS TO LET IT RUN, THEN YOU LET IT RUN! Do not stand in the line of the swinging limb... stay clear. Always have a clear view of the climber and the load.
d) Sometimes the climber doesn't require you to get the rope back to him at that particular moment... maybe there is some more climbing to do. Do not just stand there, and watch the masterfull climbing exibition... GET BACK TO WORK. But be ready for when the bullrope is needed once again.
e) When working with a pulley be aware that the friction physics are different. The bullrope can slip out of the pulley in a second. You will need more of a wrap on your friction device than usual. After untieing the pulleyed-bullrope, KEEP THE TAIL IN YOUR HAND, OR ON THE GROUND, SECURED. DO NOT ALLOW IT TO SLIDE UP AND SLIP OUT OF THE PULLEY. At the very least, put a stopper knot in the end of the bullrope.

13) Be respectfull of the customers property. Unless otherwise instructed, treat the customers landscaping, lawn, and ornamental stuff like it was gold. Don't throw cigg butts on the ground, and be respectfull when talking around them. NO cussing... at least not to where they can hear it.

14) ALWAYS put the gas/oil caps tight on the saw. And don't STAB the cap, angle the tool a bit, and tighten. Learn how to use the crazy new Sthil caps. Put the gas in the fuel tank, oil in the oil tank - don't get em mixed up. Gas the saws in a place that is appropriate- don't kill the customers grass, or stain the sidewalk. Take the time to bang out the filter. Check the chain for proper tension.

15) Always be in command of the drop zone. The climber can't do it as well as someone on the ground. Watch for people, water meters, whatever that is within that zone. When necessary, cone and tape off the area. As the climber is gearing up, move whatever should be moved at that time. Know how to drop cable/telephone lines when possible. When in doubt, ask the climber. LISTEN to the climber's instruction at all times.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

*I had to split it up!*

16) Keep all tools/gear in its proper place. If you take a tool, its YOUR responsibility to NOT LOSE IT. Put it back when your done. Everyone on the crew should be familiar with where the gear is. Before leaving the jobsite take the time to count your saws/other gear, and make sure its on the truck. Keep the doors to the trucks closed, and the windows rolled up when necessary due to chipping dust, or weather.

17) A GOOD GROUNDMAN ALWAYS MAINTAINS A VALID DRIVERS LICENCE!!! And reliable personal transportation. You should be able to tow a chipper/trailer safely, and know how to back it up properly using your mirrors. Don't hot-rod the vehicles, treat them like they were yours. Before getting in the truck to move it, take a walk around the truck to ensure everything is clear. When towing anything, inspect the hookup. If working on a public road, set the traffic cones out immediately. If someone is needed to flag traffic, assign someone to do it. Be on guard for all traffic, do not get hit by a careless driver.

18) All saws should be fueled/oiled/filters at least banged out at all times. That is probably the FIRST THING that should be done upon arriving at the jobsite, or even earlier. Never send a saw up to a climber without it being serviced, and warmed up first. NO loose chains! Learn how to file a saw. Be able to replace a chain in a timely fashion. Don't take 10 minutes to do it, and DON'T put it on backwards.

19) Before you get in your truck in the morning, check the fluid levels and service it when needed. Walk around the truck and look for something wrong. Insure all ladders, polesaws, etc are tied down and secured. Double check all hitches/electrical hook-ups. Make sure the vehicle is fueled up. This goes for the saw gas and bar oil. Don't get on the job and have only 2 ounces of mixed gas... be ready to rock and roll! Keep a siphon hose stashed somewhere to get gas out of the chipper in an emergency. Have a spare set of old jeans behind the seat for when someone fails to cap the saw correctly, and some poor soul gets a gas/oil crotch soaking. Keep a couple cans of wasp spray in the truck. Insure there is an up-to-date first aid kit in a place where everyone knows it's location. Don't sleep on the ride, pay attention to where you are going. You may be required to know it later. Keep a current map(s) in the truck and know how to read it.

20) Pay attention to incoming inclement weather. When you see those storm clouds approaching, start rounding up/stashing the gear BEFORE the bottom falls out. Roll up the truck windows if they aren't already up. React/respond to changes that happen around you. The Tiger Eye again.

21) Clear the drag path before you start dragging. Move anything that may get knocked over, damaged etc. DON'T leave chainsaws or any other gear anywhere close to the LZ or the drag path. Don't try to drag a large limb through a narrow gateway, cut it smaller.

22) The groundie should also know what the word "TIMBERRRR!" means and stays in the clear and out of the bite. They should ensure that no one else enters the drop zone, and should have a saw ready to start bucking the tree.

23) A good groundman DOESN'T STINK! They have good personal hygiene habits, and a fresh shirt available, when needed.

24) Keep the saw outta the dirt! Learn proper chainsaw operation/limbing procedures. Use wedges and cant hooks when needed. Limb the tree from the trunk, forward. In THIS case make flush cuts, especially when saving mill logs. NO SNAGS. When limbing a thrown tree that is propped up, keep it propped up until the brush under the log is dragged out. Identify the two main limbs that are keeping it propped up, and leave them alone until you are ready put the log on the ground. Before doing that, placing a few chunks of wood under the log will aid in cutting it. Do not let anyone be close when you make the cut that will shift the log. Don't pinch the saw... learn to recognize the differences between compression and tension situations, and react accordingly.

25) Report any damaged/malfunctioning gear to your supervisor when you discover it - don't just ignore it. Treat the equipment as if it were your own.

26) Other than climbing, don't be one of those "Its not my job" guys. Assess the situation and determine what needs to be done. Do whatever you can to expedite job completion in a timely and work efficient manner. Know how to operate a power pruner, and a pole saw. Use the latter to remove hangers and steer roped limbs. Use extra caution when making cuts with these tools, it is easy to make a bad cut.

27)More experienced groundmen should keep an eye on the newbies, and help in the training. And newbies need to listen to the more experienced members. Don't be offended or take it personel if the training delivery technique is not the best... some people are better teachers than others. Just make a mental note of how YOU will do it better when its YOUR time to train someone. A mutual respect needs to be developed between you and the crew you work with. Strive to be a well-oiled team working together in concert. The more you learn the quicker your chances of advancement increase, and the safer you will be.

28) You should eventually be able to handle all aspects of ground rope operation. Everything from securing the porty up to speedline operation. If you hank your ropes, learn the proper way to do it. Do not just throw the rope on the ground, tie it to the climber's line, and walk off. Take the time to un-hank the rope and tie THAT END to the climbing line. Do not stand there and hold the rope... let go. Step back and insure that the line goes up the tree unhindered. When the climber has untied the rope, ask if you should pull the belly out. If so, do it smooth and carefull. Watch for snags that are trying to foul the rope. Keep all ropes as close to the base of tree as possible. Don't streech them out, and don't make the climber have to pull up a rope that is streeched out.

29) When sending a saw up to a climber;
Set the saw on the ground, and grab a generous bight of rope. Pass it through the BACK HANDLE... the ONE WITH THE TRIGGER. Do not tie it to the wraparound handle. When sending up a bullrope and chainsaw at the same time, ONLY THE BULLROPE should ever be tied to the wrap handle. The saw should hang as near to vertical as possible. NEVER tie to the chain brake.
Pay attention to the rope(s) as the climber pulls them up.

30) You should not have to ask for an advance in pay unless it's an emergency. Learn to control your money, don't make your employer have to help you out every week. One way to do this is to have your lunch/cold drinks/ciggs yourself. Convenience stores are a money pit.

31) In case of emergency, you should know that the first thing to do is make a bee- line for the first aid kit, render some kind of first aid to the climber to avoid shock or at least minimize it, call 911 if needed or send some one for help. Know the address where you're working to tell EMT personnel.

32) When raking, start at the outermost perimeter and work in an ever-diminishing circle TOWARDS THE CHIPPER. DO NOT MAKE LITTLE 'PILES'. Employ advanced raking techniques. Choose the most logical, direct path as your drag path, and don't deviate from it if possible. Keep the area you have to clean-up as small as possible. Don't bust a rake handle by trying to move too large a pile. Use your feet to kick it forward, or pitchfork it into a wheelbarrow or a tarp. Don't leave rakes flat on the ground to get stepped on, prop them up against something. Do not rake an area that is under a roof that still needs to be cleaned. Get up there and blow the roof/gutters off. Be carefull... don't fall off the roof. If you use wheelbarrows, know when to use them, and know when to just pack the logs. Plan it so you don't have to clean the same place twice. Don't chip rakings that may have rocks in it. Respect the chipper and its blades. Believe it or not, its your best friend in this biz, or it could eat you alive.

33) You should know how to work safely with a chipper and eventually you will learn how to operate a stump grinder.An experienced groundie should work shoulder to shoulder with a newbie, insuring all the proper training in all aspects of safe, efficient chipper operations. You should learn to do minor maintenance on it as needed, as well as emergency procedures such as unclogging the chute... or better not, never clogging it in the first place. When chipping stringy or wet stuff pay attention to the chippers progress while doing it. Listen for the engine bogging down or the lack of chips being expelled. When a break in the chipping occurs, idle it down, or shut it off altogether. DON'T let it run all day. Make sure the chute is aimed to chip into the dump bed. Aim it to fill one side first, then the other, then the middle. Make sure the chute is positioned so flying chips aren't sent into traffic. Do not let diesel engines run completely out of gas.

34) You should have at least a basic understanding of tree anatomy, physiology, and identification. This can be accomplished through lots of reading, and OTJ observation. Ask questions. Pay attention. Know the plant that helps you to make your money.
For companies that also do landscaping, you should also be able to do the basic things. Proper pruning, planting, and fertilizing along with the correct use of the tools should be learned ASAP if not known already.

35) If you notice everyone around you is working and you are not, you are doing something wrong. Look around and ask yourself "What can I do to help complete this job?" If you really need instruction about that, ask your foreman.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

Mike, I worked you into 12a and 12c

Murphy, you gave me 34, and I put you in 15 and 32

Climbing Mike, 19 and 31

Brian, 12c

ORClimber, 33

Dadatwins, 16


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## jkrueger (Apr 25, 2004)

At the end of this great work we can say that the pay will be = to the proficiency shown in all areas.

Jack


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

Or, you could freak em out and tell em that they have to be able to recite it all if they want to get a raise!


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## Dadatwins (Apr 25, 2004)

Now to find a groundman that can actually read more than a thousand characters with out passing out. Good list though I wonder if you want to add anything about setting up equipment in the roadway such as traffic cones, work signs flagman etc. Can not wait to see this printed in TCI mag. thay might even give you the COVER


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## NickfromWI (Apr 25, 2004)

Okay, here's my suggestions....you guys can decide if you like 'em or not..

4) (the one about tying knots) Knowing how to quickly untie a knot is just as important as tying one. The climber does not want to wait around up in the tree while you try to decode the running bowline.
4a) The slip knot is the best knot to use for a stopper knot (see 12e). The climber can untie it with a simple tug. Be aware that the slip knot can be tied in two different directions. One will come undone when it hits the pulley. The other will stay tied. Learn the difference.

13) (about keeping a clean mouth) Look for swing sets in the yard. The presence of a swing set often indicated the presence of children.

14) (about filling saws) A valiant attempt to be made to fill the saws without spilling a drop of gas mix or oil on the saw or lawn.

26) --- I think you meant "Assess" the situation---

35) If there are local maps in the trucks, learn how to use them. While driving to a job site, the driver would much appreciate a skilled navigator who can always be one turn ahead of the driver.

love
nick!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

I wonder what word would be the most PC for groundman? Groundperson? Groundie?


Nick, I worked some of what you gave into 12b, and 19.

So, are we starting to get to the end of this? No more suggestions? A lot of members have not checked in on this one yet, I hope. I haven't heard anything from them.


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## tree pro (Apr 25, 2004)

I call 'em groundhands.

BTW this is an excellent subject, I plan on incorporating this into our next saftey meeting.


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## ORclimber (Apr 25, 2004)

How about putting out wheel chalks, cones, and signs while the foreman is banging on the door.


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## jkrueger (Apr 25, 2004)

Tree & climber support person. Oh well, yes, my lady sometimes is that on the job.

So, TCSP, or TCS personel.

The word goundie to me is like calling some one a 'dirt bag', ..., let's make them a part of the human race if we want them to do it the best.

Jack


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## NickfromWI (Apr 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *The weinies who wish to create a new term to replace 'groundman' are more than welcome to do so on their own jobsites, but to the rest of us REAL treemen the term will always be 'groundman'. *




....unless it's a woman, then it's a ground-chick, ground-lady, ground-woman, ground-girl, or whichever she prefers! Or else you will suffer the wrath!







love
nick


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 25, 2004)

Tuesday i am going to be a '' groundman'' tomorrow im having a day off  ..wednesday i will a ''climber''


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 25, 2004)

*Pissed groundie?*




Brian's right. I'm a treeman, they are groundmen. I guess females are groundwomen. Heck, why not?


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## jkrueger (Apr 25, 2004)

*Hahahahaha*

..., OK, everyone is under the thumb of the TCS person! Rocky J you are great.

 Hahahaha,


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## a_lopa (Apr 26, 2004)

i call guys who are there to drag brush TROGANS not in a derogitory way.we all need them,i got a new one starting tommorow he has a little saw experience but i know he will go all day and not winge n moan,mb i think that should seriously make the list,dont complain!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

I agree. I worked it into 11.

Remember guys, I'm now editing the 2nd list... on page 3, towards the bottom.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

I'm not real sure if I can do that, its too long for one post. I can edit the first part into it, but not the 2nd.

(edit note... I went back and deleted the first posting to lessen confusion)


Anybody have anything to add to this yet?


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## hooks (Apr 26, 2004)

I respectfully call them grunts becaus thats the sound they make. Good one are hard to find.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hooks _
> *I respectfully call them grunts becaus thats the sound they make. Good one are hard to find. *



Likw winnowing chaff or panning for gold.


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## jkrueger (Apr 26, 2004)

*Holding my ground, ... (groundie), na!*



> _Originally posted by jkrueger _
> *Tree & climber support person. Oh well, yes, my lady sometimes is that on the job.
> 
> So, TCSP, or TCS personel.
> ...



I'm having T-shirts and buttons made for the campain which will have everyone, including RockyJ  have to useTCS Personel or TCSP.

On the serious side, , the great job definition doc makes the work one of a true profession. And we do want the best, and inspired ones, so, let's elevate them and not call them those old dirt bag names unless they don't want to get it. Ya!

I've my foundery suit on, go ahead and flame.

:angel: Jack :angel:


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

I think Ground Tech might work...

"Hey! Take a couple GT's witcha for that oak TD today!"


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## jkrueger (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I think Ground Tech might work...
> 
> "Hey! Take a couple GT's witcha for that oak TD today!" *



Gotcha, ..., ya, das ist gut!

Jack


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 26, 2004)

Var so gut!

To the raking portion I would add, or start with "choose a single draf path, dont drag across the whole lawn and around both sides of the house so we have to spend rake every square yard of grass.

That should get you close to the 10,000 charicter limit Butchie!

Cut and paste it inot Word and you can edit it down much easier.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *
> 
> That should get you close to the 10,000 charicter limit Butchie!*





I really don't care how many words are in it as long as the words that do stay in it are the right ones. If I have to, I'll split it up again.

I put your thoughts into 32

Anyone else???:alien:


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## murphy4trees (Apr 26, 2004)

When chipping, know when to go grab a couple of rakes to start cleaning up the area..
There is as much art as science involved in efficient clean up...
I keep several hand held blowers, one back pack blower, one power broom, several plastic rakes, and several diffenrent sizes of tarps in the van... explaining which tool is best used when is more than I would attempt to put into words here... suffice it to say that doing an immaculate clean up speaks volumes about the pride and professionalism of your service and crew.... And having the good tools in place to do the job efficiently is great for moral..

Organizing and keeping the truck clean and making sure there is enough mix, bar oil, cabling gear etc..

and knowing how to instal a dead end on a cable and send that up... 

limbing up brush in proper sizes for efficient chipping, no leaving stubs to jam the chipper or requiring a second cut.

knowing how to let a pice run away from climber and minimze shock loading must have been coverred already.

being able to stop and hold traffic.

Hey Butch..
Somehow I think the folks at TCI mag might have a hard time with publishing the part about taking a BM before work... this list might not quite be ready for prime time and don't count on retiring any time soon..


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 26, 2004)

Why rename groundman? I am a tree climber ......not a tree person!

But really, what works for me and the guys that I work with is a common knowledge of *both* jobs. Climbers that do groundwork and groundmen who climb. This gives a mutual respect for each position. 

We all get along at the jobsite and away from the jobsite. This goes along way to making a hard job go a little easier!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

*If TCI don't like it, frick em*

This is for MY benefit, and anyone else who chooses to use it. One months glory in an issue of a magazine is of minimal importance to me. It would be cool, but I won't keel over if they don't like it.

If you can tell me that you've never lost manhours due to the need for some person that just ate their honey bun breakfast(at the 8:00 store stop) to have to 'visit the little boys room', or even worse after you get to the jobsite... I would have a hard time believing you.

Most of your suggestions are already in the list, and some of them are to going into too much detail.

Its all good.


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## rborist1 (Apr 26, 2004)

:Eye:


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## NickfromWI (Apr 26, 2004)

Those are good heading for the topics butch is covering!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

But I think that is going into TOO much detail, like Murphy was doing.
Remember, this is a handout you give to a newbie... you don't wanna scare the $hit outta em!
Look how long it is already!


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## Gord (Apr 26, 2004)

agreed there Butch... it the less there is on the paper the more they'll actually digest. Bigger type!


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## rborist1 (Apr 26, 2004)

:Eye:


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## NickfromWI (Apr 26, 2004)

At the care of trees, they made you take the orientation after the first few weeks there. seemed like a good idea----let you have a better idea of what they were talking about in the orientation. 

I woulda been lost in the orientation on my first day!

Maybe the best would be 2 orientations.

love
nick


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## coydog (Apr 26, 2004)

... if you are going to go poop in the back of the chip truck, find out if the customer wants the chips first


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## rborist1 (Apr 26, 2004)

:Eye:


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rborist1 _
> *7. Passing a pre work company orientation program prior to starting work. Including knowledge of job description.
> 
> It is the most important one and sums all of them up. All tree care companies should have a policy and procedure manual as well.
> ...




Thats an important point for sure, but that is 'first-day' kinda stuff. After the orientation you will hand them this document, and tell them this is what eventually will be expected of them. Tell them their raises/bonuses/profit sharing will be based upon their successful completion of these steps. Give them two copies. Tell them to bring one of them back with their initials written at each number. That will be the one that goes into their employee folder. Then, nobody can say "Nobody told me!!!".

Can you dig it?


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *
> 
> Maybe the best would be 2 orientations.
> *




Followed up with daily and weekly tailgate meetings.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by coydog _
> *... if you are going to go poop in the back of the chip truck, find out if the customer wants the chips first *





I believe that is covered in #10.

 

But I COULD go into more detail!!!


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## NickfromWI (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by coydog _
> *... if you are going to go poop in the back of the chip truck, find out if the customer wants the chips first *



nice!!!!


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## kowens (Apr 27, 2004)

*a good ground man*

ground man


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 27, 2004)

*Ha!*

I just figured out how to do that, Kowens.


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## a_lopa (Apr 27, 2004)

i think what murph was saying about raking proper clean up would be a good starting point,it sets good grounding rules to do things properly,interesting mb should be a good outcome


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 27, 2004)

Hey MB, could you add to number 6 something about setting gear where it can get forgotten? My bossman always does that, he'll set a pulley or some expensive tool on the ground way over in the corner of the lot in the tall grass.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 27, 2004)

Done deal, Mike.


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## Stumper (Apr 27, 2004)

Lots of good stuff guys. Everything is pretty well covered other than picayune details( and some of those were!) Rich touched on the only thing I would add.
A good ground man is the climbers friend-we don't HAVE to be buds outside of our professional relationship but mutual respect should make that a possibility. So.....if we go fishing after work. A. Don't hook the climber with your backcast. B. Don't make sudden/extreme moves in the canoe. C. If you both decide that you aren't afraid of sharing a water jug, don't backwash.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 27, 2004)

I worked a 'lil of that into 27 for ya there, Justin!


Uh, and Rich!


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## Peter Pan (Apr 27, 2004)

T.C knows and says a good grounds man can start by being alert. They need to gas up the saws and get the gear of the back of the truck. Then they should makes sure the chains are tight. Next they can follow the climber to the tree and ask if anty thing else is needed, and they should notice if the prunner will be needed for getting hangers out. Then they should watch the climber as he goes up and keep the tangles out of the rope. Then they should be ready to tie a saw on or lowering rope. Once the saw is on they should keep an eye out for the saw getting stuck and be ready for that. 

Once cutting has started they should look up every time the saw is reving at all. A good grounds person should already know where the brush and wood is going for now at least until they are freed up from lowering. The grounds person saw should be handy. Once the roping starts the ground person should know if the butt should go out or the top in, when trying to get a limb flat in tight quaters.

They need to know about the way a branch will react and which wires are what as far as obstical wires. And the strengths of them to a point, so they can get a limb down and the rope off quick and know if they can pull that branch down hard or not. They need to know how to flip a rope back to the climber and how to get it untied fast. They have to keep thier lowering ropes staight and tangle free and not around the life line. They need to be able to stop traffic, coil a rope, chip brush talk to the customer, propper raking of the lawn taking out divits with a pitch fork. Drive with out steering to much(if on the grass) as not to rip it up. Easy throttle to avoid spinning. Deacent driving skills. Start chipper. I been doing it so long i don't have to think about any of it so its hard to think of every thing I just do it!!


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## Rob Murphy (Apr 28, 2004)

*pics*

Who's gonna do the pictures? With good pics it could make neat booklet.
If thats a good groundsman ....whats an execellent one like?


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 28, 2004)

*Pictures? Booklet? Hmmmmmm....*

I'm working on making it in better order. I'll take MM's advice and arrange it like a work day. I'm also trying to make it more pc in the event I want to do something more with it.

Basically its every thing that I've ever had to yell at someone, or something that someone's done to me. Today a groundie gave me another example, knowing how to roll a rope up properly.

I don't wanna make it too detailed cause that would make for a crappy read. I do want to cover every possible freaking thing that is important IMO.

Its kinda fun since I've discovered my wordpad thingy!


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## Stumper (Apr 28, 2004)

Well Butch's post count may slow down now.-He 's discovered his thingy!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 28, 2004)

*Ya think?*


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## Jumper (Apr 29, 2004)

I think a heavy dose of tolerance is necessary to be a good groundsman. They always used to say the BS in the Army taught one that.


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## JohnVander (Apr 29, 2004)

What would you guys pay for a good ground man?

John


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JohnVander _
> *What would you guys pay for a good ground man?
> 
> John *




food and drink


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## Trtd61 (Apr 29, 2004)

All you can eat?


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 29, 2004)

i like my crew to be multi-skilled i dont want staff who can only climb ..or be a groundsman ..multi-skilled is the way for my firm ..i like all my guys to be able to climb..feed the chipper ..drive..etc..im not saying one isnt better at one job than the other of course ..each has his own talent ... me and my crew take it in turns one day i'll climb ..or feed the chipper..my top climber can manage the biggest of dismantles ...but im way better than him at prunning..


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## Jumper (Apr 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JohnVander _
> *What would you guys pay for a good ground man?
> 
> John *



Some people seem to think minimum wage, which in Ontario is $8 per hour. And they wonder why people do not stick around; this one business in Niagara advertises over and over in the Govt Job Bank at that rate. 

$12 and up would seem to be fair, and do not expect much in the way of pruning or climbing at the lower end of that scale.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 29, 2004)

Around here a good groundman makes $100 a day.

But there ain't too many of em.


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## rb_in_va (Apr 29, 2004)

I would quit my job and become a groundman for $175-200/day!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 29, 2004)

Yea that is an unusually high wage, I tellya whut!


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 29, 2004)

> I would quit my job and become a groundman for $175-200/day!



Amen Brother! I would too!


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## ORclimber (Apr 29, 2004)

175-200 is very reasonable for a good sub groundie. I pay 125 for a $7 hour labor ready guy. That jumps to 140 paying 8, if they touch a chainsaw. I'm sure a self insured azz kickin groundie could keep busy around here for $200 a day.


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## a_lopa (Apr 30, 2004)

any word on final copy or is that it mb,new guy going ok would be good to print and give,must admit he lost my huski fuel can only good thing they make too,lol


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

The attachment in my last post is it so far. I'm having it looked over for punctuation and crap, and that should be it.

I'm still open for any other suggestions!


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## Lumberjack (Apr 30, 2004)

How long did it take you to type that Butch?



Carl


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

*I whut'nt in a hurry!*

And stay on topic!


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## Curtis James (Apr 30, 2004)

Don't forget the ever important rule not to wrap the rope around the hand, arm, ect...


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Curtis James _
> *Don't forget the ever important rule not to wrap the rope around the hand, arm, ect... *




Sheet! I forgot that one. Brian mentioned it earlier.

Thanks for catching it!


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## matthias (Apr 30, 2004)

I know keeping hands and feet out of the chipper is covered in safety training but it seems you can tell someone this a thousand times and they'll still do it. I've seen some guys feed a ten inch stub BY HAND into the feed wheels. Another one is the pile of twigs that gets a TWO HANDED feed when there is a rake right there. 

Not everything needs to go through the chipper. If its too small throw it in the back of the truck. It's not necessary to try and chip leaves, needles and cones. If somebody wants chips then I figure they get what they get. If I was worried about the quality of chips then I wouldn't be pi$$ing in the back of the truck 4 times a day.


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## ROLLACOSTA (Apr 30, 2004)

1 off my multi-skilled operatives failed to show up today and with my other guy on holliday i wasnt very happy ..i hate the old he's so ill phone call from the girl friend, so today we go hungry..but seriously i hate unreliable people yesterday he was ok today he's on his death bed..funny how yesterday i told him to be prepared for a long day


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

Matthias and RC, I edited that attachment to reflect what ya'll said... THANKS!


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## matthias (Apr 30, 2004)

I can't believe people actually try and pull off the girlfriend call-in. My interpretation of this is, 

"I'm calling in for my boyfriend who is hungover/still drunk. In his booze addled mind he thinks that this is the best course of action. Also, he is too cowardly to talk to you himself. When the drink wears off he'll feel like a complete jacka$$ but as for now his only concern is pawing at me like a drunken dog in heat."

If this is a common occurrence then act accordingly. If it happens once in a blue moon then he probably realizes this and knows that he will get teased but not canned. Either way let him have it.


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## Jumper (Apr 30, 2004)

> _ Either way let him have it. [/B]_


_

The day off or give him sh*t? 

Having dealt with workers in this condition before, I always admired those that had the balls to tell me in person why they were not there. OK fine, do not make a habit of this, and we can work around your absence. Those that get their partner to phone in or hide all day with a massive headache, or get co workers, especially subordinates, to cover for them are wimps._


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

This is where the amount of the xmas bonus is established, or if they get any bonus at all.  


I forgive you for going off topic, Carl.


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## okietreedude1 (Apr 30, 2004)

I think the groundie should expertly know more knots than 2. sure the bowline and clove hitch are good, but what about the running bowline and sheet bend? Also, w/ the clove hitch, make it both the end line and mid-line cloves. 

I know some may think if a guy can tie a bowline they can tie the runner, but Ive seen too many times they cant or have a helluva time trying to get it. never know when they may need to tie one.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

If I could just get em to learn those two knots, I would be a happy camper!!! 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9853&highlight=Bowline+Mindblock


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## murphy4trees (Apr 30, 2004)

Groundman should be able to set up a simple 3:1 Z rig... that isn't rocket science... Timber hitch for a block and sling is pretty easy to learn as well...


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

Too detailed. The first sentence in 10 covers that.


Whut else?


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