# Art Martin: Will the Real Logger Please Stand Up



## dbabcock

I think it's become fairly evident to me from talking to various people, that Art Martin could easily keep his own website going if he were to choose to do so. Because he won't, I thought it would be very informative for Art to have his own thread where he could talk some more about the way things used to be in the old days. He has many pictures that we can get posted one way or the other. 

Art's having some health issues right now, so he may not be up to posting right away, but between Ken, Gypo and myself, we can probably get many interesting pictures up here in fairly short order and when Art is feeling better, perhaps he will comment for us. 

I'm reposting the picture that Gypo posted of Art sawing a big tree. Ken says that there are many things about this process that only Art knows: like when you're 15 feet in the air on a springboard and the tree starts to go, what do you do with yourself and a 60-70 lb. saw. Or maybe: what happens when the 1/2" chain in a 6 foot bar decides to get jammed and the gear drive saw bucks you off the board.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery, Art!


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## jokers

Great idea Doug! I`m looking forward to whatever you guys put up and I second the sentiment of a speedy recovery to you Art. Russ


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## wak110

Doug,
Yes, Great idea and thanks. Get Well soon Art!

Bill


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## jim40

Good show Doug!! Hurry back Art!!!


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## Gypo Logger

Hi there, heres another picture that Art sent me. Two Loggers finishing an undercut on their knees. I bet there was at least 6 full cords of wood chips removed from the undercut.
It makes you wonder how long it took them and what they were saying to each other.
Gypo


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## don

*Get well Soon*

Someone should do his autobiography. I bet it would sell.


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## WOLF_RIVER_MIKE

Great idea Doug, we are very fortunate on this forum to have as much knowledge and experience as we do. And so many that are willing to share this wealth. Wishing you a complete and speedy recovery Mr. Martin.


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## Art Martin

I want to thank everyone who has sent me wishes for a speedy recovery. It's great to have friends even though I have not met most of you. Thank you again for your get well wishes.
Of course I would be happy to relate many of my experiences during the years that I was a west coast logger. With the help of Doug and John, perhaps I will be able to post a lot of pictures that are very interesting and cover all phases of the logging industry as I knew it many years ago.
When I started my second career as a professional fire fighter, we used to sit around after a days work and tell stories of our lives prior to being firemen. The young men I worked with, were interested in my life as a logger as it was such a unique occupation and enjoyed listening to my experiences as a logger. We developed strong ties of friendship and comraderie that lasts to this day. Even as a fireman, I still competed in many logging shows and my co-workers became my biggest fans. Even the chief sometimes gave me special priviledges as far as changing days off so they would coincide with contest dates. 
I remember the first evening when someone asked me where I was from. I told them that my hometown was Fort Bragg, a small coastal town where lumber and fishing were the main industries. I also told them that Fort Bragg was a town with a population of 5,000 and that the population never changed. They asked why was that? I told them that the reason the population remained at 5,000 was that everytime a woman got pregnant a man left town. 

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

John,
You were wondering how long it took those two choppers on their knees to finish the undercut and what they were saying. Well, it took several days to finish the undercut before they started sawing the back cut. The back cut took a day to saw and sometimes part of another day to finish sawing and to wedge it over. Tapering falling wedges, almost 2 feet long with 8"X6" "shims," were placed in the cut before the wedges were put in. The "shims" made out of old crosscut saws, were put in to help the wedges slide and to keep the wedges from sinking into the wood. Sometimes there were 20 to 30 wedges in the back of tree. The choppers would face each other and hit the wedges in series until they were buried. Then they would double up etc. until the tree fell over. Sometimes the wedge would be grazed with the sledge hammer and a piece of metal would fly back and hit a person in the eye or any other place, like their privates. I still have a piece of steel imbeded in my brow bone. It showed up on the MRI that I had yesterday and it's been there 52 years.
As what the choppers, on their knees, were talking about, I think the chopper in front said to the one behind him. "Whatever you do, don't hit me in the gluteus maximus with that sharp axe!"
Art Martin


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## don

*Glad to have you here*

I have family in their 80's and older who will not tell us what it was like way back. I want my children to know what it was like for them and our fore fathers. The reason I know about Great Uncles and Aunts are bill of sales kept by the state of Illinois. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------My great Great Grandma bout 40 acres of land for $50 in 1841. A saw mill was built by using creek water and then converted to steam. They sold the land for $1400 some years later when the railwood used up all the wood for trussels. So they bought some other land and blasted rock for the railroad. They built steam engines for thrasher machines and small river boats. That lasted till about 1910 when they were hired to take care of a "religious resort" in New Piasa Chataugua Illinois. There they built housing a huge hotel, a pier, ferry's, created an irrigation system. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------My family bought the original land from the "Chautauqua community" in the "hollow" next to Chautauqua Illinois because a drought dried up the water and they did not want the land. They use to have parties cutting wood and would go from farm to farm cutting wood and building facilities. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------One smart thing they did was to save all the saw dust. In the summer they would dig big hole on the properties for ice. They would take the large saws and go out on the Mississippi River and cut the ice haul it to these holes they dug in the summer and fill it with the ice. Between the blocks and each layer they would put the saw dust for insulation and kept the blocks from fully icing up together. My Dad told me he would go around in a horse drawn cart and sell ice for 5 cents a block. They didn't use a steam transportation because of the weight and the cost/hazards of the engine. 
____________________________________________________Never seen a tree as big as the ones Art is cutting down in Illinois. I live and California now and they are still big trees here but I think they are monitored by satellite. (Some guy bulldozed some trees on Ojai and they fined him more than his land is worth, over a million dollars. )
____________________________________________________I figuire most of the big ones in Illinois were cut down long ago in the 1700's by those darn frenchman.
Sorry about that Kanucks but your expansion into the Illinois territory left my forefathers high and dry (dead) because we supported the French and the Illini were wiped out by the surrounding "civilized" tribes anf what they didn't finish Congress declared all natives hostile east of the Mississippi around the civil war. My family immediately became "white" except for a few brave ones who immediately lost their land to the war of 1812 reparation. The family used canoes they carved out of timber until a cousin Tommy Brown drowned in one on the 4th of July in 1939. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------It is amazing what history can tell you and I am happy Art Martin tells the story of what happened out here in California. Hey Art, when did you guys start using powered saws and diesel truck's and tractors?


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## Gypo Logger

Here is one of Art's favourites. Here's a picture of a couple of Art's friends after they cut down this Redwood. Art says: " note they are using a full complimentary chain! Who says you need a skip chain in anything over 30" ? Not me!"


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## don

*Chain size ?*

Is the chain size 3/4 or larger ?


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## tony marks

what could they have used to get that tree to mill? looks like it would have taken a freight train ,an i dont see no tracks.


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## Art Martin

I'm not sure, but I think it was a 3/4" pitch chain although there was a 5/8" pitch chain used during that era until the 1/2" chain came out. We used full compliment chain and it worked fine. The gear ratio was 3:1, so the chain speed was so slow you could almost file the chain while it was running. The hardest part of using those big saws with their long bars, was trying to get the saw started in the back cut. When the operator raised the saw up to the tree, the bar would sag, and when he revved the engine, the chain would come out of the bar groove. To overcome this problem, the partner would hold up the tip of the bar with an axe handle or long limb, to keep the bar as straight as possible until it got buried in the tree. The danger always, when doing this, was if the prop slipped off the then vibrating bar, the chain would fly off and end up around the guys neck, cutting him pretty bad. You have to remember that we were up on spring boards, 15' or more high, so there was no way to jump out of the way to avoid the spinning chain. The danger didn't end there either, once the bar was buried, the operator had to work his way around the perimeter of the tree until he reached the designated mark of the holding wood, which was the hinge part tree. As he worked his way around the tree, the tip of the bar would often bump the uncut portion of the tree, and with such a slow moving chain, it would kick- back with tremendous force, sometimes knocking the faller off the spring board. Many compound fractures occured as a result of this. I had many bruised hip bones and upper thigh muscle aches as a result of the kick-backs. You had to keep your body braced and tense as much as possible, you just couldn't relax at all during this proceedure. You had to do your relaxing at the Honky-Tonks after the days work was done.

Art Martin

Art Martin


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## WOLF_RIVER_MIKE

what a picture. what a hinge. the forearms on that man would shiver popeye's timbers.


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## Harley

Thanks Art, Gypo, and Doug. But mostly Art. Hope you get well soon.


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## dbabcock

Outrageous, Art! What you take, or took, for granted is simply jaw-dropping to me. You da man.


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## Art Martin

I would like to give a little insight on the tools that the choppers depended on. The double bitted axes were their main tools. The axes had a cutting edge of about 3-1/2" across on each side and the length from bit to bit was approximately 12". The head weighed about 3-1/2 to 4 pounds. The handles were usually second growth hickory and were 40 or more inches in length. The handles, before being attached or mounted, were bent at the lower area above the eye of the head. The handles were steamed so that they could be bent and were left in that position while they cooled so they would take a set that would become permanent. The reason for the approximate 15 or 20 degrees bend was so that the choppers could chop the "scarf" which was the upper angled part of the undercut, without hitting their knuckles when standing inside the undercut itself. When they made a hit on the bottom portion of the undercut, they would just flip the axe over automatically and that would allow the bottom bit to be flat against the bottom of the undercut without bending down. This would be similar to the curve of a golf club that allows the head to be level with the ground and yet the golfer stands erect. The choppers all had a flat, round stone in their back pocket that would leave an imprint similar to a snuff can. They would hone the edge in a circular motion, any time the axe started to make scratches on the wood. They were real particular about the smoothness of their cut and their accuracy was unbelievable. If you ran your hand down the "scarf" it felt smooth as if it had been planed. It took me quite awhile before my side looked as good as my dad's. Thank goodness for chainsaws.

Art Martin


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## mryb

Art,
Have any pics of what you use to move a tree like that once you have it down? Thanx in advance...Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## Gypo Logger

Hey Eric ya big slouch, If you will just shut up for a bit, say until tomorrow, I will be posting more pictures that will answer your question. I'll hit you with so many picaroons, you'll think your on the green chain.
Gypo


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## kdhotsaw

*Little leroy*

Hello john,
Nice saw, nice picture, you probably wont need all 7 wedges to get that tree over. Maybe just the backcut. Check in richard dents book on timberfalling 
. chapter 5
ken


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## visor

*axes*

Art,
I just found an axe like you described in the attic of my mom's house. It has five or six grooves filed into the handle on one side and maybe 30 inches below the head. Would you know what they are there for? My Dad cut timber for Weyerhauser up in Washington before they used chainsaws but that axe was probably his Dad's. By the way please keep the stories coming about your days in the woods.


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## Art Martin

In 1881 John Dolbeer, a mill owner, built a steam powered machine that put the bull teams out of business. It had a big upright steam boiler that supplied power to a one cylinder engine with a winding drum. This drum carried a steel cable as a winch does. The "donkey," as it was called, would be hauled to the site on skids using its own power. When the "donkey" arrived on the site where the logs were, it was anchored with cables to stumps to prevent it from moving. Then cables would be attached to the logs and it would skid the logs down skid roads much faster than the bulls could. Then the loggers noticed that skid roads were not really needed, so they just pulled the logs out causing great environmental damage to the entire area. When they finished an area and moved to the next area, the logged out area looked like a moon scape.
At about the same time, railroads were constructed into the woods areas thus eliminating flumes and logjams. A railroad could be extended more easily to remote locations than skid roads or water dependent routes. The steam "donkey" would haul logs to the waiting flat cars. Extensive networks of railroad tracks were built all over the region. By the 1900s, the bull teams were all replaced by the steam "donkeys."
In the area of the landings were the logs were stored and where the train flat cars were loaded, high climbers would climb tall, selected trees and cut the tops of the trees so they could install big pulleys for lifting the logs onto the flat cars. These poles were called "spar" poles.
Modern machines started invading the redwoods in the 1920s with steam tractors. Around the 1930s, the big "cats" were nicknamed after the Caterpillar Tractor Company which was the most prolific manufacturer. These crawler tractors, with dozer blades, would cut roads and climb almost vertical hills and haul logs to the "landings" where they were loaded on railroad flat cars. 

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Visor,
The marks you referred to on the axe handle were used by some choppers to give a reference point where to hit the axe on the bottom cut of the undercut. That distance would measured from the top of the spring board and would help keep the cut level and help to put the spring board hole in the correct place. 
Another reason that you may find grooves on an axe handle is that when they finished crosscutting a cut on a downed tree that was in a bind, they would hit the axe in the lower part of the tree length wise and use the saw upside down and use the groove to guide the saw in the cut and use a downward pressure on the handle end as a lever to finish the cut, much like an up cut with a chainsaw. This is called under bucking and although there is a special tool for this proceedure, a lot of chopper/buckers would just use the axe handle. I used this way of finishing a cut many times.

Art Martin


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## FSburt

Hey Art I have this Book called Rails to the Minarets which is a historical writing about the Sugar Pine Lumber Company. It has some very interesting writing pictures about how the logging was done in the early 20's and 30's. I admire the old loggers for their ability to get the biggest trees in the world out of the woods and to a sawmill. It was the small things that helped do this such as how you used a axe handle to underbuck with a crosscut saw I always wondered how that was done. Kinda cool to be able to go back and layout a commercial thinning sale to thin the second growth that has grown back since the big guys were taken off. Like the pic of you putting in the backcut on that Big Redwood. In the second Pic with your buddy did the tree bole split when it hit the ground or did you guys have to blast in half with powder to be able to get it on a truck. 
I have this old electric saw with a 6 and 8 ft bar and either 1/2 or 3/4 in chain. I have the original cable that I don't know what it plugged into but it is 50 ft long. I opened the saw up and cleaned it out and the bushings and coils are not corroded so I bet it would till run is I could hook it to a power source. I know the lumber company I was talking about before was an all electric powered so this could have been used out in the woods. I bought it off an old faller from oregon. thanks for the stories and cool pics from Gypo.


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## Art Martin

FSburt,
The tree that was felled in the other picture that was split on impact, was a double tree. They were very common. Those trees start out as one tree and become two trees after they reach 25' to 50' from the ground. I have a lot of these old logging pictures that I am preparing to send to Doug soon. When he posts them, I can comment on their content as they appear. I noticed that your location is Northfork, Ca. I used to compete there many years ago at their logging shows. I used to sharpen crosscut saws for Tom Wheeler and his partner Mr. Fink. Also there was a few other top competitors named Herb Pumkin and Alvin McDonald from that area. Have you heard of them?

Art Martin


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## FSburt

Talk about knowing the locals Art. All the people you listed still compete in the NF Loggers Jamboree. Did'nt make it this year but wanted to go. They are all doing fine and still involved with logging and falling. 
Hey Art How long did it take to put one of those big Redwoods down and buck it up. What did you guys make $ wise for those trees. How were you guys payed. My uncle used to work for Weyhauser as a faller in the 60's and 70's and then as a Gypo here in the Central Sierra's near Kings River on the Sierra NF. He told me when he started out he was 15 yrs old and was limbing with a axe. he Woked in Northern CA also out of Happy Camp and Orleans. Thanks for the reply Art.


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## WOLF_RIVER_MIKE

*then as a Gypo here in...*

What is a GYPO?


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## Newfie

Mike,

As I understand it, a "gypo" is an independent, non union, in this case logger.

BTW Art, absolutley awe-inspiring stories and pictures. Thanks so much for sharing.


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## dbabcock

Mike,
Newfie is correct. John Lambert has often mused that it would be improbable that he could work for anyone else with his current mindset. I think, in paraphrase, he has stated that if he worked for himself as an employee, he'd probably have been fired a long time ago.


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## Dagger

Mr Martin, I certainly enjoy your posts, And i Salute you and all your peers who helped supply the material to build this great country, during a time that most of us can hardly imagine!

I look forward to seeing more of your pics and reading more of your commentaries. 

Dagger


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## sawracr

FSburt, the way I understand it the first chainsaws were electric and ran off a tractor (probably Catapiller) which ran a generator. Do you know the Morrows Mike and Aaron, great bucksaw competitors, and all around good guys.


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## Gypo Logger

Hi there, here is another one of Art's pictures. Art says this drag saw is almost as heavy as the predeter.
I wonder if this guy started it up in the bar?
Gypo


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## sawracr

Looks like a candidate for Never Dull


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Jon, I still got the Nevr Dull, now I dont need to send my chains back to Uncle Art as often.
Gypo


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## dbabcock

What you really need.


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## dozerdan

HI Gypo
I used Nevr Dull for the last 15 years.The stuff really works great,I get a lot of complements on it.Here is the proof,check out the finish!
http://www.sunlink.net/~dozerdan/littlehead.jpg
Later
Dan


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## Gypo Logger

Hey Dan, thats pretty cool. It reminds me when I went to the barber to get a haircut. I asked the barber how much a haircut was and he said 20$, so I asked what a shave was, he said 10$.
So I just said "shave my head".


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## dozerdan

Gypo
I always thought that I should get a discount on a hair cut,since I dont
have a much to cut as other people.I asked the barber one time for a
discount and he told me he should charge me twice the going rate because he
had to look twice as hard to find it.
The going rate for a cut is 7.00 here.
Later
Dan


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## mryb

Dan,
Whatz the shiney spot in the pic?
Can it be surgically removed?
Creep/Pal/Puke/Rick

Creep on loggin'


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## Art Martin

Several important industries sprang up, in the Redwood region, other than lumber. They were railroad ties, cord wood, and tan oak bark which was used in the tanning of leather. Beginning in the 1870s, they reached their peak around the turn of the century. Tapering off began in the 1920s. Around the 1900s, there were some 4,000 people directly employed in the making, swamping, hauling and shipping of ties, and getting out tan oak bark and cord wood. This merchandise was shipped out to market by small sailing vessels. Around the 1880s, they began to convert them into steam scooners, which made it easier and safer for them to enter and maneuver around the small mooring places along the rocky coast. They could also get out to sea much faster when sudden storms blew in. There were over a hundred of these sailing ships lost along the coast due to storms and other mishaps during these times. The tie makers endured real hardships during the season while making millions of railroad ties. They lived in make-shift shacks that were put together with shakes that were hand split from 2 foot long shingle bolts. I ran across many of these old shacks when I worked in remote areas cutting timber. These shacks were put together with square nails. I found old bottles, discarded tools, and horse shoes that were left there when they moved to other areas. They apparently live off the land to some degree by eating deer meat, rabbits, and birds, to splice in with the other food stuff they brought with them. They stayed there for months at a time while others would come with horses and mules pulling wagons, to haul the ties to the loading docks. They would pick up necessary food staples and supplies and head back to the camp sites to pick up more ties. The northern California area was a large source of supply for cord wood to the San Francisco bay area, where it was used for fuel, up until the 1900s, when gas and oil became the main fuel. Cord wood was made from old Douglas fir trees. A cord was a pile 4'x4'x8' long. The price paid for a cord of wood was 90 cents to $1.10. You have to remember that there were no chainsaws at that time, so they had to buck up the trees with crossvcut saws, then split it with malls, then pile it into horse drawn wagons and then haul it to where ever it was shipped from. There was no unemployment or disability or medical insurance, no food stamps, welfare and very few doctors. I can't say that these were "the good old days". The lumber barons lived in opulence and incredable fancy mansions, with maids and butlers, in the bay area, complaining that it was had to make ends meet with the high cost of labor.

Art Martin


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## dbabcock

Art sent me over 100 pictures in the mail the other day, and I just got through scanning about 80 of 'em. I'll start posting the ones I've sized and adjusted so far tonight. As I work through them, I'll post accordingly. I'll give Art a break in between posting pictures grouped by subject so that he can explain and answer questions. The first 80 are of the historical variety as well as the ones I'll start with, which are pictures of Art, his wife Marita and a few (ahem...) trophies he's won over the years. Later, I'll post some paintings that Art did on the Off Topic forum as well. 

This first one is a current picture of Art and his dog, Schatzie. Art lives in California with his wife, Marita and is considered by many to be one of the best chain filers in the world. An Art Martin race chain can take as long as 20 or more hours to make from a stock one.


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## dbabcock

John Lambert posted this picture before, but I've had the opportunity to clean it up a little bit, so I figured I'd post it again. Art has won the title of "Best All Around Logger" in California in three successive decades: the 60's, 70's and 80's. Here he is with some of his trophies.


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## dbabcock

Of course, Art has won a few more trophies in other logging competitions as well...


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## dbabcock

When Art retired from the woods, they retired his boots and hard hat as well. Check out the cleats on those things!


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## dbabcock

I've talked to Art's technically saavy wife, Marita, on several occasions when I've had computer networking problems that I couldn't solve. Here she is a few years ago competing with the bucking saw.


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## dbabcock

I'll post some more tomorrow, but it's 1:00AM here in the East, so I've gotta hit the hay. Oh what the h#ll...one more for the road...


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## Rotax Robert

Although I have never met the man, this pic of Art an his trophies now hangs in my shop (Art on the steps)... Art , you helped me in ways with my hotsaw career in ways that only true racers will ever know. 

I think I speak for all of us when I say thankyou for shareing your past and present with us. And yes I'll will see you soon.


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## dbabcock

Beasts of Burden


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## dbabcock

More beasts


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## dbabcock

These blocks weigh 150 lbs. each.


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## dbabcock

Building the infrastructure.


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## dbabcock

A deep woods sawmill.


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## dbabcock

More construction


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## dbabcock

And another...


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## dbabcock

Some loggers.


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## dbabcock

Clearwater Revival 2002. Dennis is on the far right.


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## dbabcock

Train 1


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## dbabcock

Train 2


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## dbabcock

Train 3


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## dbabcock

Train 4


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## dbabcock

Train 5


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## dbabcock

Train 6


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## dbabcock

Train 7


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## dbabcock

Train 8


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## dbabcock

Train 9


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## dbabcock

Train 10


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## dbabcock

Train 11


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## dbabcock

Train 12. Two million railroad ties.


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## dbabcock

Train 13


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## dbabcock

Train 14


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## dbabcock

Train 15


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## dbabcock

Ships 1


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## dbabcock

Ships 2


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## dbabcock

Ships 3


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## dbabcock

Ships 4


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## dbabcock

Ships 5


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## dbabcock

Tools 1


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## dbabcock

Tools 2


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## dbabcock

Winch 1


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## dbabcock

Winch 2


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## dbabcock

Winch 3


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## dbabcock

Winch 4


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## dbabcock

Winch 5


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## dbabcock

Equipment 1


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## dbabcock

Equipment 2


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## dbabcock

Equipment 3


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## dbabcock

Equipment 4


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## dbabcock

Equipment 5


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## dbabcock

Equipment 6


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## sedanman

To Art Martin, Thank you for providing such wonderful pictures. I can only imagine how tough the job was that the early loggers did to provide the lumber to build America. The pile of 2 million railroad ties is staggering. 

To Doug Babcock, Thank you for lending your effort to post these pictures, over the weekend I'm going to file all of them on a disc.


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## Marky Mark

*Here's a few I like*

this is a fav


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## Dennis

After spending an hour or so downloading pictures...cause I still have *gulp* ...dialup...I am still amazed at what kind of men these guys are...I cannot fathom any five persons today doing what one of these loggers did...crazy....

The only thing I saw that hasnt changed....was that Skookum Block weighing 150lbs....our highleaders here still use them....except they are Ropemasters now or Opsals...still weigh that much...and around 2000.00 cdn ea. oh yeah...and guys dont pack them into trees anymore...we use excavators for a back spar...

Art...simply amazing pics...its so good to see someone realize then, what these pictures mean now...and to keep them and share them....Thank you!!!

Doug...I saw that...


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## Art Martin

Thanks Doug, for the great job you are doing on the pictures that I sent you. I know all the other viewers are also appreciative of your efforts to provide the quality that we are seeing of these old pictures that reflect a part of history, along with the hardships, that occured many years ago. Only a small persentage of these beautiful giant Redwoods still exist in state parks and are protected by buffer zones. 
The huge Redwoods that are around 21 feet in diameter started as a seedling around 190 A.D.

I got the following dates from a cross section that is displayed in front of the Georgia Pacific Corp. mill in Fort Bragg, California. The mill there started in 1885 and cut it's last log on August 15, 2002 when it shut down it's operations.

311 christianity was recognized when the tree was only a foot or so in diameter.
395 Roman empire devided, it was then about 2 foot in diameter.
982 Holy Roman empire restored, 6 1/2 feet in diameter.
1295 Marco Polo returned to Venice, 12 feet in diameter.
1492 Columbus discovered America, 14 feet in diameter.
1776 Declaration of Indendence, 16 feet in diameter.
1943 The tree that I got the dates from was cut down, 21 feet in diameter.

Art Martin


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## treeclimber165

Just bumping this up so it doesn't get lost. For those of you who haven't had time to browse through all the pics, they are fascinating! Thanks, Art and Doug! :angel:


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## Art Martin

The steam engine locomotive made its appearance in the logging industry on the California coast in 1875. The first locomotives were manufactured by Alexander Duncan in San Francisco. They were known as "Mrs. Duncan's tea kettle." After the "Tea Kettle" became an important mode of transportation, many other steam locomotive builders sprang up in the San Francisco area. Some lumber companies even made locomotives in their machine shops to their own specifications. Also there were many different styles and sizes of these locomotives. There were also many variations to the gauges of the railroads. One of the widest gauge railroads, 68 1/2 inches, was built by the Gualala Mill Company. This unusual, wide gauge was originally built to accommodate space for a team of horses to pull the flat cars, which at that time were run on wooden rails. When they converted to steam engines and steel rails, they still maintained that wide gauge. The wide gauge apparently didn't help the engine from turning bottom up as depicted in the picture posted as train seven page 5. These different gauge railroads were only used by lumber companies in their own system. When the main railroad lines were later brought to these remote areas, and connected to the inner-state railroads, companies had to convert their engines and branch lines to standard gauge railroad specifications in order to utilize the inner-state systems. There is a long history of the railroads in the Northwest and much has been written by historians and much information can be obtained from railroad buffs. The railroad that still operates out of my home town of Fort Bragg, California is the California Western Railroad. This railroad was originally used to haul lumber from Fort Bragg to Willits, a town about 35 miles away. With the advent of the diesel trucks, the railroad gradually lost its commercial value. Today, the company operates the famous "Skunk" train year around for tourists, who enjoy the 35 miles scenic route through the redwoods. Originally, the "Skunk" was a yellow one-car passager vehicle (similar to a street car) that brought supplies, mail and passengers to the remote settlements along its route. It got its name due to the foul smell of the diesel smoke that remained long after it had passed by.

Art Martin


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## dbabcock

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## Art Martin

When the "high lead" logging era began, which was hauling the logs above ground, the companies were confronted with many problems. One being the need for ways to get the heavy cable blocks high above ground level. With "high lead" logging, the donkey steam engines pulled the heavy cables and the noses of the logs were lifted high over the many obstacles, making it easier for the rear sections of the logs to follow. This method ended the ground lead style where the logs were dragged on the surface of the terrain. 
The trees selected for "spar poles" were then rigged and they served especially well to transport logs over canyons and rough terrain. A tight line was strung between "spar poles." A traveling carriage was equipped with steel slings and choker cables that were attached to the logs to secure them.
The trees, chosen for the "spar poles," were often 6 to 8 feet in diameter at the butt and up to 250 feet in height. The limbs were removed, the tree was topped, and guyed in numerous places and rigged with hauling gear. This was all done by "high climbers." The high climber, as depicted in tree picture 28 page 9, used a pair of climbing spurs and a wide belt. Attached to this belt was a long Manila rope with a steel core. The steel core was for safety purposes to prevent the rope from being cut by an accidental stroke of an axe. The high climber used a special slip knot that kept him at the proper distance from the tree as he climbed and adjusted for the taper. With him, as he climbed, he had an axe, a crosscut saw, a flask of kerosene (to cut the pitch), and small wedges to prevent binding. He would also bring along his lunch as he would not come down until the tree was topped. The axe and saw dangled from a rope on his belt, well below the climber at a safe distance.
As he climbed, he would adjust the rope often and lop off the limbs he encountered on the way up. The first limbs usually started from around 100 feet from the ground. The height at which the tree was topped varied, but usually was 200 feet up where the diameter would be at least two feet. When reaching the proper height, the climber would begin to chop an undercut on the side in which direction he wanted the tree to fall. When the undercut was completed, he would begin the back cut on the opposite side. If the saw pinched, he would tap in the wedges with the flat side of his axe. When the top began to lean and the back cut started to open up, he would withdraw the saw and let it drop to the end of the cord on his belt. As the rope continued to tip toward the direction of the undercut, he dug his spurs in harder and prepared to brace himself for whatever happened in the next few seconds. As the heavy top, with the heavy remaining limbs kicked off the stump, there was a big reaction in the opposite direction. This created a violent motion. The top of the spar pole would begin to spin around in a circular motion that was often 70 feet in diameter. It acted as if a bucking bronco wanted to get the intruder off its back. The movement continued for probably 15 minutes or more, then slowly come to a halt.
If all went well, the preceding description was tame. It could get worse in many cases. The tree, where it was being cut, could split down and spread and would pull the climber against the tree breaking his back, or break the belt could break and the climber would fall to the ground, or he could be squeezed to death. If this was to happen, because of a gust of wind, before the back cut was completed, sensing the danger, the high climber needed to release his spurs and drop down, relying on his rope to save him on the way down. The top could also "barber chair" at times with devastating results. These were many of the incidents that happened in this dangereous job. Occasionally, the tree would not kick off at all and just slide back over the stump after the hinge wood was broken off. The result being that the top section would drop down close to the spar pole and the limbs would brush the climber off. I'll discuss the rigging phase later.

Art Martin


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## don

*Los Angeles Times today*

TRIMMER CRUSHED TO DEATH ON PALM TREE.
55 year old tree trimmer was up 30 feet on a palm tree when part of the tree he cut came down and crushed him against the trunk of the tree.


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## Art Martin

Once the high climber completed his initial, dangerous task of topping the tree, he descended down the topped tree to prepare for the next phase: rigging.
When he reached the ground, he put his axe and saw aside and took a small 15-20 pound pulley, a steel cable strap and a small, long hoisting cable and started up the spar pole. When he reached the proper height, he attached the pulley to the pole and ran the small steel cable through the pulley and lowered the end to the ground. By the means of this small cable, the rigging crew on the ground started sending up the necessary equipment to begin to rig the pole. First the ends of the half dozen steel cables went up and were looped around the top of the pole. Then the other ends of these cables were attached to available stumps in locations where they would come from different directions. After these upper cables were secured, additional cables were raised to the mid-way of the pole. The ends these secondary guy lines were also looped around stumps coming from different directions. These mid-way were necessary to prevent the pole from buckling when enormous strains were subjected to the pole when the steam donkey began to raise the heavy load.
Once the mid-way cables were secured, the high-lead block was hoisted up and attached with a heavy strap at the top of the spar pole. This large pulley weighed as much as a ton, with an outside casing measuring around three feet in diameter. The axis was run on self-lubricating bearings. The reservoirs for the oil on each side of the pulley could hold up to 15 gallons of oil and could weigh about 150 pounds each. The main cable strap, that held the heavy pulley in place, was thicker than the guy line cables. An extra strap was attached to the pulley and to a guy line in case the main cable supporting the pulley broke. This allowed the one ton pulley to slide down the guy line instead of falling straight down and injuring the crew working near the base of the spar pole.
It took two to three days to rig the spar pole. Then the main hauling cable, which was 1-1/2” in diameter would run down to the donkey drum and through the high-lead pulley at the stop of the spar pole and from there to the logs. A smaller cable was run along the ground to a smaller pulley on a stump and then doubled back to the main line to haul back the main line to the starting point after it had brought the logs in.
There have been many stories about these brave high climbers who were fearless and perhaps somewhat foolish but the prestige that went with the job was apparently worth it. They had to have a good knowledge of falling trees, splicing cable, and rigging procedures as well as be real strong and with a lot of endurance. They were well paid and had to be available at all times to fix any problems that might arise. The companies couldn’t afford to have a large crew sitting idle for very long. There wasn’t much competition for the high climber’s job.

Art Martin


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## treefarmer

*Excellent Post*

Thanks for a great post. Nice collaborative effort. I appreciate the detailed history. Sure makes me feel soft, though.


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## dbabcock

I just posted up some of Art's oil paintings over on the AS OT forum.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=5408


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## Art Martin

There was yet another chapter in the continuing saga pertaining to the “old logging days” and this was the cross cut filing shack. Here the saw filers had their saw vises that were usually made out of two pieces of 2”X10” Douglas fir 7 feet long. The tops were curved to match the contour of the saw. They were also tapered along the faces to allow the filer to get the proper angle when filing by allowing him to get closer to the saw. There were usually five bolts that went through the vise about midway. These bolts would support the saw, by holding the saw to expose a large portion of the tooth to allow the filer to set it at a correct position. Since fallers and buckers weren’t experienced in the art of filing saws nor did they have the time, they would bring the company owned saws to the filing shack whenever the saw got dull. Of course, some filers were betters than others, so the men using the saws would try to have their favorite filer to do their saws. 
The saws were first checked for any kinks that may have bent the saw by a dropped log or some other object. The saw was hung on a nail and a long straight edge was held against each side of the saw. The filer could easily see if there was daylight coming from under the straight edge. If he saw a kink, he would wet his finger with some saliva and scribe a reference mark where the kink was. He would then take the saw down and lay it on a heavy piece of flat metal and used a cross peen hammer to remove the kink. It took a lot of experience to master this step. 
The filer would then put the saw in the vise, and he would “joint” the saw, making sure that all teeth were the same height along the curve of the saw. This was done with either a Gibbs or Atkins jointer that was 16” in length. The two ends had floating sled runners and the middle had a place for a 4” piece of file attached to it. As the jointer was slid across the arc of the saw teeth, the filer would take off only the tips of the highest teeth. The filer would do this several times until he saw that the file had touched each tooth. Now he had a perfect arc from which to start filing. If a person had lain one saw after another on a flat surface, end to end, the arc would have formed a circle of about 40 feet in diameter. So a 7-foot crosscut saw is actually a section of a large circle.
When the jointing was done, the filer would then work on the rakers. There were usually four cutting teeth and raker in the sequence on the saws used in the Redwood region. There was a large gullet on each side of the raker to allow the chip to be curled up inside it and brought out of the cut with the back and forth motion. These rakers were swagged to form a slight chisel to remove the chip that had been severed by the longer teeth. These rakers were set about .025” below the teeth with a gauge made for that purpose. It is something like a depth gauge for a chain saw chain. Once the rakers were lowered and swagged, the filer would file the teeth to a very sharp point. Once all the teeth were filed, then a set was put in them. This process was done by using an anvil held against the back of the tooth and hitting the front of the tooth about ¼” down from the point to bend the tooth over about .012”. There is a small, four-legged measuring devise called a “spider.” It has one leg .012” shorter than the other three. Some of the spiders were .012” and .015” and so more set could be put in, depending on what the person, who used it, preferred. On a flat surface it “rocked.” This spider was held at the top of the tooth with the other two legs supported by the neighboring teeth. When the shorter leg, was held against the top side of the sharpened point and when it no longer rocked, that tooth was done so the filer would skip a tooth and repeat the process on that tooth and so forth until the entire side was done. Then he would turn the saw around and do the other side the same way. Every other tooth is set one way and every other tooth is set the other way. Then the saw was then ready for the fallers and buckers to use for the next week or so. The filer spent about three to four hours to do a saw.
That is a day at the filing shack.

Art Martin


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## JimL

Verrry cool story Art. I watched a fellow do exactly as you described in northern minnesota. Took about 3 hours but was worth the wait to see. 

very cool.


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## Art Martin

I forgot to mention in my last post about the “crosscut shack” that there is a wonderful, detailed crosscut saw manual for sale by the: 
Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402
Stock No. 001-001-00434-1.
This publication was first issued in June 1977 as Missoula Equipment Development Center Report 7771 2508. Warren Miller, Forest Service ranger wrote this Crosscut Saw Manual, while on detail to Missoula, Montana.
The manual is very detailed with many pictures of crosscut saws, tools and detailed procedures used in the sharpening of crosscut saws. For example, it even has a picture of a double bladed axe being used as an undercutter for a crosscut saw. I mentioned this in a previous post and several readers expressed interest in it. It also has some history of the crosscut saw.
With this manual and some practice, anyone should be able to learn how to sharpen a crosscut saw.
I don’t remember how much it cost, but I think was $4 to $6 when I ordered it many years ago. I gave a copy of it to my friend Jim Taylor and he told me it was his crosscut saw “Bible” for many years. He went on to be one of the best, modern competition crosscut saw makers in the world.
Even if you don’t intend to sharpen crosscut saws, it would be a valuable item on the bookshelf of any crosscut saw aficionado. 

Art Martin


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## don

*Thank you art.*

I have a cousin who can sharpen these things. His eyesight isn't what it used to be so I don't know if he stiff can do it. He has one of those "fancy" Stihl saws now so he cuts faster.


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## johncinco

Thought I would move this back up, and ask Art, did you have any experiences with floating logs down river? Not too many guys that are around to discuss it near me, but the whole are was looged that way. I have some pics from those days and local lore but wanted to hear if you had anything to say.


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## armyguy

What's loogin'? Seeing who can launch the farthest hocker? (just kidding) By the way, excellent pics and stories.


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## Art Martin

johncinco,
Thanks for the question. I was a faller and bucker. Therefore, I was never involved in the log floating type of logging. Actually, this type of logging had already changed to a mechanized system when I started in the woods. The bulldozers punched in roads to the more remote areas because the areas near the rivers had already been logged out. After the roads were bulldozed in, the other caterpillar tractors (called wheelcats) towed the logs to the landings. From there, they were loaded onto railroad cars and later huge trucks with 14’ bunks. 
When the lumber companies abandoned river logging, they left the rivers in terrible shape. The rivers were full of sinker logs that never made it to mill because they were so large and heavy. These logs laid in the rivers for over 50 years until enterprising individuals saw them as a source of virgin timber for making paling fencing, fencing rails, grape stakes and other landscaping materials. Besides the sinker logs, there was other debris blocking the rivers that prevented salmon from reaching the spawning areas.
The obstructions were the result of previously built dams that were used to raise the river for logging purposes. The dams were not being completely removed when the practice of using rivers to transport logs to the mills ended. Most of the rivers were finally cleared when President Roosevelt started his National Recovery Act (N.R.A.) program. This program also enabled the establishment of the California Conservation Corps (C.C.C.). These programs created jobs during the later part of the depression era. Thousands of men were hired and put into work crews that cleaned up all the rivers and parks. In this day and age, timber cannot be felled within 200’ of rivers. This is to create a shade canopy so that the water stays cooler for the salmon runs, thus protecting the spawning grounds. It is working well and has provided an abundance of salmon.
Art Martin


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Art, please be our guest and give us what you can on the good ole days and your experience with square filing. I wont be around till Tues, but look forward to following up when I come back.
Regards,
John Lambert


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## Art Martin

One of the main features of any logging town, in the ‘30’s was the “Company Store.” This large department store sold ever kind of merchandise imaginable, except liquor. It was owned and operated exclusively by the lumber company (thus one could literally say, “I owe my soul to company store.”). The mill and woods workers were able to charge on their accounts to sustain their basic needs (food, clothing, gasoline, animal feed, etc.). In my hometown, the “Company Store” was still operating in the late 1950’s. I remember that my dad never received a paycheck as such for his labor as a chopper. All he received was a statement with an itemized list of what had been charged the previous month. There was never anything leftover to buy even small things that weren’t carried at the “Company Store”. The existing debt usually ran about $200 with a limit of $500. The credit would be cut off if it ever ran above the limit. My dad only earned $1.00 per day, $26.00 a month. It was almost impossible to get out of debt, when the wages were so low. One could not shop, for necessities, in other stores where the goods were cheaper. 
We still had to pay rent, utilities and other necessities that we could not charge at the “Company Store”. For instance, our rent was $10 a month. Since my father never got a check, my mother had to sell milk at $0.10 a quart delivered to neighbors. We always had a cow, chickens and rabbits and we had a huge garden also. Because we lived by the ocean, we always had fish too. Thus, even though we didn’t have much money, we ate well.
There was no money left over for movies or other entertainment. If I wanted to go to a movie, which was $0.10, I would kill a rabbit, (we had at least 50 at all times) skin it out and then sell it to the local Italian market for $0.25. That way my brother and I could go to the movie and have $0.05 left over for a chocolate bar that split in two. Of course, my brother, being older, got the biggest part since he did the splitting. Sometimes I didn’t have a nickel and I would file down a washer to the exact size of a nickel and put it in the machine—it worked—and I got my chocolate bar. That’s probably how I got my ability to file accurately.
It wasn’t until World War II started that the workers were paid by the hour which was $0.98. After that they really started living “high” with such a large salary. After a few years of these “high” wages, my folks were finally out of debt to the company store and began shopping in stores with more reasonable prices. 
In my next post, I will discuss the old chain saws that I started with and continued using until I left the woods in 1963.
Art Martin


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## dbabcock

Art,
Can you teach us how to file washers to make slugs as well? Can't wait for your chainsaw and filing entries. Great work as usual!


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## don

*Well dbabcock you can make a penny*

act like a dime by rubbing each side on the sidewalk and then rub a flat spot to make it fit into the parking meter.

If you are ever near the pier in Santa Monica and you see people doing this just remember this city is number one for parking tickets.

Never been able to cut a tree in that city but I'd probably get a ticket for parking a loader on the street.

Art, some of my family from Europe came over and were indentured servants in the meat packaging and coal mines in Illinois. Still trying to figuire out how they ended up with the other side of the family out in the woods making lumber and steam engines. (We think it might be a rock quarry)


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## Art Martin

Doug,
I could teach you to how file a washer to make it worth a nickel but if you really want to make big bucks just take a penny and drill a hole in it and it becomes a washer and is worth a dime. Things have changed.

Art


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## dbabcock

Ha ha, good one, Art! A penny's certainly worth more than a dime nowadays.


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## Art Martin

Due to the lack of dealers in our area, we were limited to the choice of saws available. I’m sure there were other good saws in other areas of the country and Canada but we weren’t able to try them. In the early 1950s, the major US chainsaw manufacturers were Atkins, Bolen, Clinton, David Bradley, Disston, Homelite, I.E.L., Lombard, Mall, Mono, Terril, Titan, Luther, Porter-Cable, Monarch, Woodboss, Fleetwood, Precision, to name a few. Also at that time, the major US chain manufacturers were, Titan, Jamieson, Lynx, Disston, Reed-Prentice, Poulan, Oregon, Atkins, Homelite, I.E.L., McCulluch and Beaver. Homelite finally came out with a great saw, the 2100, 7.2 cubic inch engine, which was the best saw that I ran in the stock class competition. I used it in competition since I was sponsored by Homelite. With it I won the state championship in that class beating out the Stihl 090s. Later the modified 090’s blew all other saws away in the production model class. Of course, Ken Dunn wasn’t around in those days with his expertise either. My Westbend 820, with a Horstman 2” stroker, which made it 10.2 cubic inches, was the fastest in the dual carburetor, piped alcohol class. The other “secret” on the Westbend was a special oil reservoir clutch that allowed the saw to maintain certain pre-determined rpm’s, throughout the cut without going out of the power band. I preferred the full compliment ½” pitch chain with a six tooth sprocket. The rakers were run at .060”. I also used the .404” chain on smaller models but never the 3/8” pitch in my competition years. It wasn’t until the recent years when I started making them for other contestants. I’ve learned a lot about the 3/8” pitch chain and believe they are really fast in smaller logs with smaller engines. With 8 cubic engines and over, I still prefer the ½” pitch chain. 

Art Martin


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## Ryan Willock

Art, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experirance with us!!!:angel:


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## Art Martin

Although the chainsaws in the 50's were heavy and cumbersome, they did help in the process of falling and bucking timber. the saws usually weighed 75 to 125 pounds. A lot of added weight was because of the long bars and heavy chains and the stinger handles (helper handles). Sometimes I would wonder when climbing steep hillsides, with the blood vessels in my neck sticking out and your arms that had gained four to five inches in length, if going to college would have been a better choice. That didn't seem as good of a choice as it just wasn't as "macho" as a West Coast Faller. Oh well, egos and honky tonks just seemed more important.
The timber areas on the coastal range were steep and real steep. The terrain rarely was flat or even sloping. Sometimes I would think that we should have been born with one leg shorter than the other in order to walk more easily across steep terrain. As one faller once quiped, " it was so foggy one day that I could not see the upper portion of the tree that I was falling. As I was wedging the big tree up the hill, the tree seemed to stop tipping over. When the fog cleared up, I could see that the tree was already down", (that's how steep it was).
My first chainsaw was a Mall model 6, which had handlebars like a Texas Longhorn. Later I used a Mall model 7 chainsaw. The carburetor had a coated cork float which did not allow the saw to be operated in any other position but upright. The transmission revolved by pulling a lever and turning the bar so it could cut vertically or horizontally. It had no recoil srarter. It had to be started with a rope with a handle on one end and a knot on the other. The chain was a "scratcher" type, which took hours to file and the kick backs were atrocious. The hooded tooth type chains came later. The next saw that I used was the Kiekhaefer Mercury which was about 125 pounds. It was two cylinder, 12 h.p., with a lot of torque. It had a manual clutch lever on the handlebars. I used many different saws along the way, but the McCulloch Model 99 was probably my favorite during that era although it was temperamental in many ways with getting it started. I could handle it easily by myself because it had a hard-faced round nosed bar without a stinger handle. I fell a lot of timber with that saw. Then Homelite came out with a direct drive saw with a diaphragm carburetor. With that type of carburetor, the saw would run in any position. That was when timber falling became a whole lot easier and the saws starting getting better, lighter and faster. The Homelite 729 became my favorite. It had a belt drive and a rotary valve system. Except for the recoil starter, it was a good saw. Then the 900 series Homelites came out which were either gear drive and direct drive. I used gear drive mainly for falling and the direct drive for bucking because of the higher chain speed. I stayed away from McCulloch's, except for the Model 99, because I could often hear the other fallers across the canyon swearing, yelling and stomping because their Mac's wouldn't start. They would yell to me that they were going to town to get their f***ing saw fixed. They always carried a lot of spark plugs in their pack sacks which seemed to help in getting their saws started.

Art Martin


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Art,

Thanks for sharing another one of your great expierences with all of us once again.75-125lb saws must have been a real killer back then I can just imagine having to lug all that weight around all day,man am I glad saw's these days have lightened up quite a bit since then.Art you really should write a book on all your time's out in the bush.

Later Rob..


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## eyolf

Hello, I have stayed the heck off this thread, because I know next to nothing about west coast timber. I am, however, somewhat familiar with McC and hard to start saws...My dad had two old McC 3-25's. He needed two, as they wouldn't start when hot. The idea was to cut with one saw until it ran out of gas; refill, then use the other saw. Then, you skidded, loaded logs, maybe topped with an axe, for an hour or so until the saws were cold.

By the time I came along dad no longer worked in the woods, but still had those two saws, which he still used to cut firewood. The process was modified to suit the chainsaw: cut stems into 5-8' lengths, split these with maul and wedges, and buzz the splits and poles up in a buzz saw. 
Dad was killed in an accident when I was a teenager, but he had finally traded those "yellow dogs", as he called them ,for a used Homie gear drive (model 17).

I had to get the wood by myself after dad was killed, and used that old Homie 17 one season. I also trapped, harvested wild rice and worked for a farmer, so I used some of my money to buy a Homie 923, after helping the farmer clean up after a storm with a Homie XL12 and bcoming sold on lightweight direct drive saws.. You couldn't have paid me enough to use a gear-drive saw after that. One man can only make about 1-1/2 cords a day with one of those old saws, cutting, splitting, buzz-sawing, and loading, and that's with the energy of a teenager!

Along the way I've used chainsaws to earn $$ at times, and eventually gained the desire to collect a few...I now have 3 of those old 3-25's, and a pile of the early style Homie gear drives like the 17 we had. I love to fire them up now and then, but I don't have any problem putting them up to grab a modern saw!


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## don

*Hey do you like the 655?*

Looked in past stringsand saw you have one. Are they a good saw? Is it still in production? Was told it is 98cc and set at 8500 RPM? Can you tell me anything about the saw?


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Art,

Since you are the man for square filing do you have any tips/how to on this subject that would help us who want to learn how to chisel bit 

Later Rob..


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## Art Martin

I plan to cover chisel bit filing as soon as I get my main computer fixed. Right now I'm on this stinking laptop and I'm not used to it. I will also give my opinion on making racing chains for those of you that have an hour to spare. 

Art Martin


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## don

*Hey Art What is your comment on the 655?*

Asked you a couple of postings ago.
You have one, at least I read you had one a couple of months ago.
Would you recommend this saw? Do the reeds hold up?


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## Art Martin

Don,
The 655 BP is a good saw. I had a problem with cylinder recently because the person that I bought the saw from had modified the boost port in the back of the cylinder. What he did was to widen the upper part of the port to the extent that the end of the ring caught a piece of the chrome and peeled it back enough to lose the compression. I'm looking for a new cylinder right now if I can find one. The reed system works good, I added a tillotson 360 large bore carburetor on it.

Art Martin


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Thanks Art hopefully you get your main computer fixed soon I don't really like to use those laptop's either can't wait to hear how to chisel bit I've been looking forward to getting some tips for quite sometime now..

Later Rob..


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## StIhL MaGnUm

So how have you been doing lately Art do you have anymore good stories to tell us about on this rainy Sunday??? 

Later Rob..


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## Art Martin

Rob,
I got my main computer fixed finally. I am working on a post about standard chisel bit filing today. The opinions expressed will be my own, which are the result of nearly fifty years of experience and any similarity to other opinions are purely coincidental.

Art martin


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Glad to hear you finally got your main computer fixed,I can't wait to hear about the chisel bit filing from you and I'm sure the others are looking forward to it as well...Hope to hear from you soon.I just bought a 100' roll of square ground Carlton chain thursday and looped it all into 28" and a few 32" one of the loops could use a good filing this afternoon to be ready for tomorrow maybe I can get some tips from the Pro. 

Later Rob...


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## Art Martin

There has been so many threads about filing chisel bit chain and about all the different angles, beaks, hooks positive slopes, negative slopes, gullets, rakers, depth gauges, inside side plates, top outside plates, etc. When you add to that all the different opinions, types of wood, plunge cuts, boring cuts, kickbacks, undercuts, Dutchmen, hingewood, etc. it’s no wonder that so many people are confused. Also, there full complement chain, semi-skip chain, full-skip chain, drive links, rakers, etc.
The first important item that is necessary for precise filing is a vise that holds the tooth firmly without any movement. Filing on a chainsaw bar while attached, results in a sloppy result. Even the slightest movement of the tooth causes an inaccurate cutting edge. I know there are people out there who will say, “I’ve been filing my chain in the woods for years and it cuts fine.” I’ve done it that way myself for years, but I just want to point out the most accurate way. If a chain is worn and the bar groove is sloppy, the inaccuracy of the filing job is magnified. If using a round file on a chipper tooth or a chisel tooth, this is not so important, but on a chisel tooth with a chisel file, no movement should occur. 
One of the most important steps to do is to get the correct inside side plate angle correct for the particular wood that you are cutting. Those who are using round files are limited as to the degree that can be obtained on the inside side plate that is trailing, ever so slightly though. The larger the hook or overhang, the more tearing action is created because the top plate is pulling out fiber before the fiber is severed by the side plate cutting edge. This results in a rougher cut and slower cutting speed. You can observe this by looking at the end wall of the log because it is fuzzy. If a person, filing with a chisel bit file, doesn’t make the inside side plate angle more acute than what round file has obtained, then they are wasting their time because it won’t cut any faster. With a chisel bit file, and with a lot of practice, the inside side plate and the top plate angles can be made with single strokes to get a much sharper angles. If you don’t make the correct angles, you might as well stay with a round file. The Madsen’s filing instruction certainly doesn’t have the correct angles for a fast cutting woods chain. There is so much misinformation that makes me wonder who wrote the instructions. With angles like those shown, you are wearing out the cut, not cutting it. You are also wearing out your saw. With a chisel file you can attain 30° or less on the inside side plates while keeping a 30° to 32° outside top plate angle and at the same time, getting a thinner inside top plate angle that helps avoid a drastic chips curl as it removes the severed wood fiber. A blunter edge of the top plate angle will cause more energy or horsepower loss. It’s like a wood chisel removing a chip if you have already scored a board with a table saw, then holding the chisel more upright, it’s like scraping the wood out instead of chiseling it out with the handle lower.
The side plate outside angle, when viewing it from the side should have a 10 percent positive hook (80° from upright). A straight up 90° angle to the bar is OK, but the 10° positive slope feeds into the wood better and has a slight slicing guillotine affect on the cross fiber. I make my chain angle as follows: inside side plate 30°, 10° forward slope on the outside side plate, 32° outside top plate, 34° inside top plate, rakers .025” on new chain and I use the progressive method of lowering the rakers as the chain is filed back. The optimum cutting angle is reduced as the chain is filed back resulting in a smaller chip. To maintain the original new chain cutting efficiency when the tooth reaches the rear rivet, the depth of the raker should be .038”. This allows the cutting edge to enter the wood at the correct optimum angle. Depth gauges should be lowered every time the chain is filed, but this is rarely done. When the “constant” method is used, the gauge reads .025” but as the chain is filed back, the chain becomes less efficient because the optimum cutting angle is reduced. With the progressive method, the optimum raker height is factored in and the chip size remains constant. This progressive method is easily accomplished with a file-o-plate. Even if you have an adjustable depth gauge, the exact amount the rakers should be lowered is hard to determine. A lot of experience helps. Any chain that is filed back, using either the constant or progressive method of lowering the rakers, will cause kickback energy to increase slightly. 
I have used skip chain and semi-ski chain during my career as a timber faller and found them to be an advantage when used in the falling process in big timber. As for bucking the full compliment chain is much smoother and faster.
If a beak is created, the top plate acts like a tooth filed with a round file that has been undercut too far. The top plate digs under the uncut fiber and actually lifts and tears out the fiber before side plate has cut it. You should practice to hit the corner exactly at the intersection, to prevent this from happening.
I welcome any questions that might arise about the clarity of chisel bit chain filing or any other questions that you might arise on this topic that I haven’t covered.. I will cover racing chains later in another post.

Art Martin


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## tony marks

just a comment to darin.
this post has so much history and so much good info . it be nice if it was made a part of the site that was a permanent
thing new forum members coluld click on.
i know im gonna print it. so ill be busy a while. not meaning to get in ye buisiness
darin.


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Thanks alot for your great insight on this subject Art I greatly appreciate you sharing all your tips as well as all the great stories you have,hope to hear some more from the Art archives soon.

Thanks Rob.


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## don

*Thank you ART !*

Thank you very much ART.

So what type of chain do you start off with when you begin to square file?

On a 404 chain do you start with a chian that is alreasdy machine square filed or use one that is round filed and proceed to Square filing?

What size files do you use?


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## Art Martin

Don,
Since I no longer work in the woods, I just do racing chains and don't use chisel bit files. When I did use chisel bit files, I prefered the three cornered type on 1/2", .404, and 3/8" chains. to remove the metal from the gullets, a 5/32" round file works fine.

Art Martin


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## don

*Thank you Art*

I appreciate all the information. There sure is allot to a chain. Never really tought so hard on how to do a good file job until I read how you worked in the mountains and the way you sharpen chains today.


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## Art Martin

Before I forget, there are several points that should be mentioned concerning conventional chainsaw sharpening. There are probably many people out there who don’t understand the important relationship of the chain to the sprocket. The sprocket should be changed every time the operator puts on a new chain. Also the bar rails should be trued properly as well. As the chain wears and stretches, the pitch changes slightly. As the sprocket wears, the pitch also changes. The distance between the points on the sprocket gets smaller. So the two components work in opposite directions. When the sprocket wears down, the bottom of the drive links “bottom out”. The continuous hammering on the bottom of the sprocket causes the front part of the drive link to turn up to form a sled runner. This prevents the raking action to keep the bar groove clear of the debris and chips that start to form at the bottom of the bar groove. If the wood is pitchy and sticky, since the drive links can’t clear it out because of the sled runners that have been formed, it begins to build up and actually gets tamped down and solidifies. The result is the chain tension gets tighter as it rides over the packed down debris. The engine heats up and the bar and chain get hot also. The problem can be easily corrected with a round file or Dremel tool.
I’ve seen this happen even to the high horse power motorcycle engines where the chain actually stops.

Art Martin


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## eyolf

Great thread, and thanks.

A question: "new sprockets every new chain", makes plenty of sense if the sawyer is the sort that keeps one chain on the saw until it's pretty well shot...usually that guy is able to file freehand pretty well too.

I am not able to file freehand all that well, and will not even try to fix up a damaged chain out in the woods. It's just easier to replace it, and I usually have 2 or 3 chains in rotation on all of my saws at any one time. I change spur sprockets when I can see a pretty good groove forming (maybe .020 deep), and change rims when it looks like the links are starting to bang, or when I feel like "it's been long enough". I do not abandon good chains when changing sprockets. In fact, I keep using chains as long as the drivers, tie-links, and teeth look OK.

I've been getting by Ok until now, but this doesn't seem to fit your suggestions. Any Comment?


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## Art Martin

eyolf,
You certainly have the situation under control from what you described. Also, like I said, that problem can be easily solved if sled runners start to appear, then you can keep on running the chain much longer. All that I was trying to point out is what could happen when people go to extremes and continue to run chain after chain on the same sprocket. People bring saws in for me to sharpen and the sprockets have a groove on the points the are .060" and probably even more. Also the bar grooves are wide enough to roll a quarter down them. The drive links are so worn that they are tapered toward the bottom like a wedge. Then they wonder why their cuts are crooked. People tend to be conservative when it comes to sprockets and bars because they are so expensive, and as long as the chain keeps going around, why bother.

Art Martin


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Art, I know exactly what you are saying about the saw attachments and the abuse they get.
Even those that should know better, give you the dumb dog look when you suggest things like dressing the bar, changing the sprocket or simply learning to file. Then they go on to brag about how great a Stihl or Husky is and how well they cut tobaggans.
An equally funny look can be gotten if you suggest they open up the muffler or simply turn the H screw in a bit so it doesnt smoke like a Mack truck.
I guess what I am trying to say is, we can spoon feed the basics all day long, but few will grasp it, but then again, if they did, we may not have feller bunchers or whole tree processors.
John


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Art,

Excellent info about the sprocket-chain combo I don't know why people don't change them more often they don't cost a fortune.I find myself going through a sprocket every other week sometimes even sooner depending on how much felling I'm doing.I invested in 20 sprockets for each of my saws but when they run out I order another 20..

Gypo,

Your right about the spoon feeding basics to everyone,and also the buncher and processor but personally I "need" my buncher since I do work alone and I subcontrat for a bigger company that requires the job done on a certain date,like when they give me 2 weeks to selective/thin out a 20-30 acre tract of 14"dbh-30"dbh I just can't do it just with my saws I use my buncher for 14"-22" trees and the rest I fell with my saws,I would really like to just fell it all with my saws but time does'nt allow me to do that.
 
thanks for listening
Later Rob..


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## sawracr

John, Paul Bunion and Babe know how you feel........... %&#@ mechanical logging. Hey, Art any thoughts about Mechanized logging? Jon


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## Art Martin

Jon,
Thanks for your question. I think it's a lot easier on the oxen!

Art Martin


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## fun_chopper

The history you have shared is amazing. After seeing thoes pictures, I feel dwarfed especially since my biggest tree was a 6' ponderosa pine, I thought it was a monster. Thanks for sharing this amazing tale with us!-Matt


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## AJLOGGER

WOW, Art I am realy glad that I got in this forum and learned the information you have shared in this thread. I couldn't believe my eyes in some of those pictures that were shared by Gypo and Doug, truly amazing I do not know how you ever did it. It makes some of the trees I have felled (and thought they were monsters) seem like weeding a garden. Thank you for all of the valuable and interesting info. Just one question, you have truely a great wealth of knowledge and experience on saws, and I always find this question interesting, which brand of saw do you prefer, Stihl or Husky? And Why? I am always interested in hearing peoples responses on this question. 
Thank you  
Andy


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## Art Martin

Matt,
Sharing some of my past history on this site is just a very small portion of the total picture. Life during my early childhood as well as the years growing up wasn't easy and sometimes even cruel and at times seemed hopeless. We did survive and learned to introduce humor when things really got bad. I have so many true stories that are humorous and amusing that would fill a book, but that again is another story.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Andy,
Thanks for your question as to my preference on chainsaws. I like the Stihl but I just don't have the background or knowledge to really evaluate other current saws or models. Let me put it this way, I own one Stihl 090, three Stihl 056's, one Poulan 655 BP, one Solo 680, one West Bend. I really like the 056 since that is the saw I have used the most.

Art Martin


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## Ryan Willock

how many cc's was the 056???


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## Art Martin

Ryan,

The saw the I was referring to, that I like, is the 056 A.V. It is 4.94 cu. in. (81 c.c.). There are many improved 056 models also going over the 5 cu. in. range, to around 6 cu. in., and according to sales on Ebay, they hold their value to over $300.

Art Martin


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## Ryan Willock

Art, what size bar could they pull??? what did you do the most felling with??? thanks


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## Art Martin

Ryan,

The 056 pulls a 28" bar easily with a 7 point sprocket with the rakers set at .025". When I worked in the woods, my last saws were the homelite 900 series, both gear drive and direct drive.

Art Martin


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## Ryan Willock

Art, what year did you retire from the woods??? why did you choose homelight over stihl? where they higher quality at the time?? just wondering. thanks:angel:


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## Art Martin

Ryan,

Where I lived in Fort Bragg, CA, there was not a Stihl dealer at the time that Homelite was on a tear. They were really pushing their produce and gave us demo saws to test on the job. Then a new dealer bought out the previous dealer and I became good friends with him. He was a former chainsaw champion and took me under his wing and taught me a lot of secrets on how to make speed cut, dechroming chain, lightening chain, custom made sprockets, grinding speed cutting axes, hot fuel, and much more. My winning ways sky rocketed and it helped his business because of the publicity we got competing all over the state. I retired from the woods and went into the fire department in 1963 but started competing heavily after that. I worked for the Homelite dealer In the San Jose on my days off and was sponsored by Homelite.

Art Martin


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## don

*Wow that is so neat to here about your early adventures*



> how to make speed cut, dechroming chain, lightening chain, custom made sprockets, grinding speed cutting axes, hot fuel, and much more



So seriously Art you should publish a book on your adventures and methods for various wood working methods.


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## Ryan Willock

Art, don is right. your story should be a book as it is very fasinating and alot of fun to read!!!:angel:


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## HomeDelight Man

Nothing like a 900 series Homelite!!


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## Art Martin

Many people have often asked, “why is the round filed chipper tooth chain not as fast as a square filed chisel tooth chain?” I know the answer and will make an attempt to explain it, but after reading the other thread, “top plate angles” I just wonder, why bother, people just don’t seem to get it, but here it goes anyway.
The chisel tooth chain incorporates a flat top and sides, which meet at a square outside corner. This makes them the ultimate in efficiency, smoothness and they also stay sharp longer. They introduce more cutting edges to the wood. It’s the working corner that does all the work. The corner, being the highest and widest point on a chisel chain, meets the wood first and this starts the cutting action. The advantage of the chisel tooth allows each cutting edge to function independently as designed. The side plate severs the cross grain and establishes the kerf. The top plate removes the severed wood or chip. The flat-faced side plate introduces a straight cutting edge to the wood, allowing the entire edge to do the work. In the round filed chain, both the top and sides plates must function together. Round filing also imparts a curved edge on the cutter. This allows a smaller portion of the cutting edge to be working at any one time. A cutter, that has a radius that joins the top and sides, is considered a round toothed chain. That is called a chipper tooth chain. A round toothed chain must work a little harder to equal the output of a chisel chain. Both the top and side plates, on a round chain, are higher and wider than the corner. In this configuration, the cutter must make a few more passes to achieve the same corner position of a chisel cutter. The ratio would be close to 2 to 3, which means for every two revolutions that a chisel chain makes, a round tooth chain must make three revolutions. If all other conditions are the same, (i.e., raker settings, and the length of teeth, the same saw and bar). That would mean that for every 1,000 revolutions that the chisel tooth chain makes, a round tooth chain would take 1,500 revolutions to cut the same amount of wood. It’s easy then to figure out that a saw would also last longer with a chisel tooth chain. With my experience I believe, a similar ratio also applies to a full compliment chain as opposed to a skip link chain, even if they are both chisel bit. A full compliment chain is simply faster cutting and smoother. If less filing time is more important than wear and tear on the engine, then that is certainly the operator’s choice.

Art Martin


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## bwalker

Art, could you tell me what the proper angles are to round file a chisel chain like stihl rs or oregon lg? How about the angles for square chain. It seems to me like everyone has differant angles and says differant things. I was kinda hoping you could clear all that up.


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## Art Martin

bwalker,

I pretty well covered the angles on the chisel chain in the thread dated 11-17-02 which is the twelfth thread down from the top on page 11. Anyway since I don't use a round file, but if I was to use one, I would put a 35 degree angle on the top plate, and hold the handle down no more than 10 degrees to get a slightly thinner edge on the top plate, being careful not to get a big hook or over hang. Holding the file level also does a good job on a chisel tooth but on a round tooth, holding the file down 10 degrees more important.

Art Martin


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Excellent info Art if I could chisel bit as good as you I probally would'nt round file either  Thanks alot for all the tips on chisel bit filing I used all your angles,techniques on a couple Carlton square chains and they cut excellent in the White Pines around here I have not tried them in any hardwoods yet but I will as soon as possible.

Thanks Again
Rob.


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## Art Martin

I’ve received a lot of email about racing chains since the beginning of this thread. Now is probably the best time to start talking about the different steps that are needed to take place. Although many of the modifications cannot be duplicated without special equipment that I have developed, I can assure you that if the steps are followed correctly, the cuts will drop faster. Once again, I want to remind those people who are interested in making a racing chain that you will not see as much gain if you use it on a saw that hasn’t been modified. These two elements work together, one is not as good without the other. 
The caliber of engine modification depends on the proficiency, experience and expertise of the person who does the work. I’ve seen so-called modified saws that are worthless. If you spend anywhere from $300 to $600 in modification to a production model saw, you better know that the person is competent. Rotax types of saws, of course, cost up to $4,500 or more. They are different animal or breed since they are motorcycle or snowmobile engines with a chainsaw bar and chain attached, not a production type of saw. The bottom line is that if you are going to shell out that much money, you better spend a few hundred dollars more to buy a fast chain or learn to make your own.
I now basically make chains for Rotax Robert only and perhaps sharpen a few for my close friends, because I don't want that as my full-time job since I have other interests. I will be glad to answer questions or make a sample of what I use, but that could also get out of hand sometimes. The angles that are used on a chain should fit the type of wood that is to be cut. That is why it is hard to make a fast cutting chain for someone who lives in a different part of the world, and you have never cut the type of wood in their area. I have more expertise on Redwood and Douglas Fir since that was what I cut day in and day out during my first career, although the differences are very slight. There are several chain configurations available, and I have tried them all, in fact even made my own by experimenting in countless ways.
The full skip, as a racing chain was eliminated first of all because it will not cut as fast as a full complement chain, and neither will a semi-skip. For those who still want to argue the point, all I can say is I’ve been there, done it, and then moved on. The only chain that will be faster than a full complement is a custom made chain that has one cutter on either side, one after another with no spaces in between. I’ve only tested it on logs under 20”, and the saw used must be 8 cubes or over and highly modified, but it definitely has the edge over a full compliment chain.
One of the main considerations in chain modification is total weight reduction. The first concern of starting the reducing “diet” is grinding material off all the rivets. Since the rivet hole on the tie straps are counter-sunk, or funnel shaped, removing most of the head will not affect the holding strength of the rivet. Removing most of the rivet heads will gain some kerf clearance so there won’t be any drag created in that area. Removing the material off the top of the drive links that rises above the tie straps is done by a lot of people but it is risky. The reason it is risky, on a 3/8” pitch chain, is that the area above the rivet hole in the drive link has .093” of metal. If you file that area down to the height of the tie strap, so they are even in height, the metal in the area above the hole is only .040”. Very often the chain will fail at this vulnerable spot. As they say, a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Also some people remove more metal from the end of the drive links where it transverses around the bar nose and that area of the drive link that protrudes. This also adds to the weakening problem. On a ½” pitch chain this can be done without any problem of the chain breaking, if it is run on a modified production model saw. Again, if you file down the tops of the ½” chain drive links on a chain that is used on a Rotax type saw, and the wood is harder than Cottonwood, the chain will break. Rotax Robert will attest to that because it happened to him. His “saw” has so much power that it just pulls the chain apart when under a heavy strain. A ½”pitch drive link has .115” metal on a new drive link above the rivet hole and when it is filed down to the level of the tie strap, it has .058” above the rivet hole.
To be continued.
Art Martin


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## Art Martin

There are several ways to remove the excess metal from the ends of the rivets. A high-speed hand held grinder, similar to a Dremel tool or a larger version, is often used. I like the set-up that Ken Dunn uses, which is a chainsaw bar with roller tips on each end. The bar is mounted in a machinist vise that is on a drill press table. There is a large abrasive wheel mounted on a spindle that fits into the chuck of the drill press. Once the correct pressure against the chain is applied with the drill press running at high speed, the chain is turned slowly by hand. After one revolution, the pressure is slightly increased to take a second bite. Finally, a third adjustment is made to finish the job. Thus, it takes three complete revolutions to finish one side of the chain. It is probably the best method and the fastest.
The next step is to grind off the front part of the tooth, back to the front of the rear rivet. I do this step with a small bench type of chain sharpener. I just set the gauge at 32 degrees and slowly grind the tooth down to the bottom of the gullet, just even with the top of the drive link. After all the teeth have been shortened to the same length, I put on a narrower grinding wheel that is used to sharpen 1/4” round chain. I set the grinder at 90 degrees and doggy-bone the tie straps between the drive links, being careful not to grind into the drive links. I even doggy-bone the area at the bottom of the gullet. I then narrow down the depth gauge by removing a portion of the front of the depth gauge and actually doggy-bone the area in front of the depth gauge. The next step is to remove the metal from the gullet. That area is removed from the backside of the depth gauge to the front bottom side of the side plate. The area that I remove becomes sort of arc shaped and in the middle area it goes down to where I doggy-boned that space. This removal can be done with a 7/32” round file or a Dremel tool with a 7/32” chain sharpening stone. 
Some people make racing chains by removing the rear portion of the tooth. I did this on chains that were used in contests where you were required to bore one cut and then a straight off cut for the second cut. The back of the tooth was sloped and it really bored through the log fast, but lost time on the straight off cut. I have since modified that type of tooth by dechroming and reducing the width of the tooth to make a narrower kerf and by taking out the set to six degrees. This helps somewhat on a straight off cut.

Art Martin


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## bwalker

Art, I am curious as to why you take the crome of the cutters. I dont know jack about racing chains so go easy on me.


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## dbabcock

Art, you attached a picture! Is that the first one? Good work. I'm sure Marita had something to do with that!


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## don

*That is a fine setup*

did you use an old bar to make the rail?


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## timberwolf

*Removing the chrome*



> Art, I am curious as to why you take the crome of the cutters. I dont know jack about racing chains so go easy on me.



Ben, of coarse this is for Art to awnser, but I would imagine that it is for the folowing reason:

The degree of sharpness that one can put on a tooth edge is limited by the thickness of the chrome, as the chrome layer is so hard and brittle that you cant file an enduring edge into it. The chrome often fractures presenting a broken squared edge to the wood. The steel will take a finer edge, granted it wont last long, but who cares as long as it makes it for 3 cuts.

Thanks Art, this is wonderfull juicy information, some of it can be applied to everyday life and the rest sates the imagination.

Timberwolf


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## bwalker

Crofter, That makes sense when you consider that stainless knives cant be sharpened as sharp as carbon steel blades. Stainless does hold a edge better though.


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## Art Martin

Doug,

You got that right, it was Marita who did it for me before I had a frustrated breakdown. She just followed your detailed instructions which were all Greek to me, thanks. I'm better at causing confusion with racing chain proceedure than understanding stinking computer terminology.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Don,

Any bar that has a groove that is not sloppy works fine. The second roller installed on the heel end is not really necessary but it just makes the procedure smoother. 

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

bwalker,
There are several reasons that I remove the chrome. First, it is easier for me to make the kerf narrow with the grinder I devised, than to totally dismantle the entire chain and remove .020” off the inside lower surfaces of the cutters. Also, I alter the set of the tooth to a six-degree outward angle, which helps the chain drop down through the cut without as much drag on the sidewalls of the kerf. This is just for racing chains. When working in the woods, you need all that kerf to keep the chain from binding especially in springy timber. This is not a concern at logging contests because the cuts are thinner and the pressure from the sides is negligible.
The degree of sharpness is not a problem since I hone the outside side plate edge with a razor stone. With a filed edge, the chrome does become jagged and rough when viewed under magnification. When the chromed edge is honed it is much sharper and thinner.

Art Martin


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## don

*Edge is honed with a razor stone?*

What is a razor stone?
I always thought the chro9me creates/keeps the edge on a chain.
I guess for a racing chain you use it a couple of times for several seconds and you are off to the next race some where. Then you would rework the chain.
Is this the rationale?


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## Art Martin

Don,

A razor stone is available at most barber supply stores. It is a glass smooth rectangular stone about 6" long, 3" wide and 3/6" thick. I used the same chain for a whole season and sometimes more. Just a slight stoning once in a while keeps the fiber cutting edge razor sharp. The top plate doesn't need a touch up. You can gain about two or more seconds on a 24" inch cut by merely stoning it if done correctly. If not done correctly it will stop cutting after it gets about 4 to 5 inches into the cut. I will cover that subject later.

Art Martin


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## bwalker

Art, Sounds like it is very labour intensive process to make a good race chain. About how long do you put into each one?


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## Art Martin

bwalker,

It isn't easy. It takes me 10 hours for a race chain for a 20" bar. I have actually timed each phase and then I can multiply by the number of teeth in a particular chain to determine how long it takes. I seemed to have heard that some fellow in Montana can do it in less than an hour. I guess you have to work faster in that cold country to keep warm.

Art Martin


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## bwalker

> Montana can do it in less than an hour.


LOL, To bad walt was such a sore loser. They guy had alot to say from some of his posts I have read.


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## eyolf

Thanks, Mr Martin (you seem like one of those guys that deserves a respectful greeting?).

I know only a little about filing chains, and it seems like less since reading your posts. I do know a little about filing circle saw blades, and can recite the terms "set", "rake" and "clearance", can show where the "gullet" is, and even know the purpose of raker teeth on diferent types of saw blades. I can even file a hand rip saw and have gummed a buzz saw blade...which is getting uncommon!

But that's all a piece of cake compared to figuring out how to file a chain, at least for me. I still rely on a Granberg file jig to sharpen chains, or at least to get them back to really decent shape after two or three woods filings (or one kiss of the dirt!)

I just wanted to say thanks for taking some time to talk about this subject. I don't understand everything said; it's pretty hard to describe some things without a drawing or photo, but it appears that a little thought and a little time spent over a saw chain may fill in some gaps. One of your past posts alluded to the depth guages controlling depth of cut AND amount of tipping the cutter into the cut, where this lead would change as the cutter was filed back. I actually went out and made some cuts with a couple of different chain saws, and measured the thickness of chips produced to see if I could see some differences and make some conclusions.

I can imagine an impish grin and a twinkle in your eye as you mention a certain Montanan. I think its too bad that Walt isn't posting here any more. I'm going to hazard a guess that he knew quite well how to accurately file or grind a chain, but his chains stopped short of some other touches you're mentioning lately, probably just the difference between a pretty good chain and the one that takes the trophies regularly.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Tell me if I got the side plate modification correct in this drawing.

Are my thoughts on "set" close to what the actual set angle is?


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## Crofter

Art, we are hanging on your every word, I keep checking for the next installment. On the reduction of set, do you take off more at the front of the tooth or reduce taper from top to bottom as Mike shows in his drawing, or both?

Frank


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

Great drawing, but it’s wrong. You are looking at the six-degree reduction from a wrong angle. Although what you show in your drawing is somewhat correct as to the lean of the tooth, it is not an indication of “set”. You have to draw another illustration showing the tooth as if you are above it, looking down. Then you make a six-degree line from the rear of the top plate to the front. Then the forward cutting corner will stick out six degrees more than the heel of the top plate. This is the “set” that I am referring to.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Crofter,

The explaination to Mike Maas using the word "set" is easier to grasp than "lead" (as in leading edge) which would be a more correct terminology. When putting set into crosscut saws and other saws, "set" means the outward lean of the tooth. With a hooded chainsaw tooth, it has both lead and set. I hope this explanation helps.

Art Martin


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## don

*I can only write ...*

You could sell the manual all day for $20.
Manual with video for $49.
May I be the first one to purchase the manual and tape?

What amazes me the most is you learned most of this by trial and error.

Okay guys who in a survey would say they manipulated the "set" on a tooth to see which angle cut the best?

Filing with a razor stone will be an interesting subject.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

What tool can be used to measure all these angles?


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

This angle is hard to measure because it has so many variables. I’ll try to explain how I came to the angle that I use.
The vise that holds the chain, that I made, sits on a rotating base and is adjustable to any angle. The stationary electric motor is mounted on a permanent angle that makes the “lean” of the tooth that you depicted in your drawing. I put a one-foot long planer blade into the moveable vise and moved it so it was flat against the grinding wheel. This made a zero reading on the line I scribed across the two parts of the adjustable base. Then at the end of the one-foot long planer blade, I moved the end six degrees. This made the line on the rotating base move ever so slightly so I scribed another line there. Then I moved the rotating base back to zero and the moved the end of the planer blade in the opposite direction. This resulted in two witness marks on the base that were easy to reproduce each time I de-chromed a new chain. So the six degrees that I refer to, were at the one-foot mark. I wouldn’t know how to measure each tooth individually. All this grinder set-up does is reduces the side “lead” and maintains enough “lead” to clear the rear portion of the tooth as the cut is made, which results in a cut that is much smoother. The amount of “lead” on each tooth is only in the thousandths but it works. This explanation might sound complicated, but it is more common sense than technical 

Art Martin


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## Crofter

Mr. Martin;
I sure would appreciate knowing how you position the saw or the clamped chain when you square file. I have experimented with level, nose up 45', tipped towards me 45' etc. trying to find a way to be able to watch the corner and keep track of the other angles. I am having the most trouble with keeping the side hook consistant. It cuts not too bad by MY standards but is not very crisp looking. Did you square file your working chains when you were logging or is this mostly reserved for competition work, 

Frank


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## Art Martin

Crofter,

I will get to the subject of filing the chain later, and I will post pictures of the filing vise the I made and also a picture of another way to stabilize the chain when filing a chisel tooth chain. It can be made very easily with a discarded bar and clamp.
I only used full compliment, chisel tooth chain, when it came available, during my first career, except for a times that I wanted to experiment with the full-skip and the semi-skip chains since there was no information available at that time for comparison. My conclusion was in big timber, the skip chain did help bring out the sawdust somewhat better, but it was too rough when cutting with the end of the bar. Cutting with seven or eight foot bar in trees that are twelve feet and more in diameter, becomes a daily task and the kick-back is unbelivable.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Continuing on the subject of racing chains, the cutter modification procedure is of course the main concern. To enhance the chip flow requires the enlarging and smoothing of the chip channel underneath the cutter top plate and the inside wall of the side plate. This can be accomplished by removing some of the metal with a Dremel tool and a thin abrasive wheel. Care must be taken not to weaken the cutter too much. I find that the best position to accomplish the removal of this metal is to have the chain on its side. I use a small vise held by my large bench vise to hold the tooth rigid, then I move each tooth, one by one, on that particular side into position. Then I turn the chain over and do the teeth on that side. It’s a slow process but it has its rewards.
Although I hardly ever use the other method to increase chip flow channel, some people have good results with it, especially in the eastern states where they cut 8”X 8” and 10”X 10” cants with 10 point sprockets, short bars and powerful engines. It doesn‘t work well on the pacific coast areas where the logs are big. They remove the rear portion of the tooth and since the tooth slopes to the rear, removing the material from the rear portion of the tooth does indeed enlarge the chip channel. Since I don’t remove the rear portion of the tooth and concentrate on the tooth above the rear rivet, I already have a narrower kerf without removing the chrome. Then when I remove the chrome and alter the “lead”, I have an advantage. About .020”of the inside of the tooth can be removed without weakening the tooth. If you go above this amount it can be risky although at times I have taken a chance and it worked out fine. My motto during my years as a contestant was always “thin to win”. 
When the inside top plate is thinned and sharpened at a steep angle, the chip doesn’t curl abruptly as it does with a blunter angle, therefore there is less resistance in that area. Another reason that a thicker and blunter top edge is not as efficient is that the resistance imposed on the top edge has a tendency to push the cutter toward the outside wall of the kerf causing gouges or scratches on the walls of the cut. This roughness can often be observed when the cut drops off. The bottom line is a thinner top plate and inside top plate angle is the way to go. This is also the reason why a chisel tooth chain, sharpened with a chisel file is superior to a chisel tooth chain filed with a round file in just average wood -cutting and in the woods.

Art Martin


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## dbabcock

Be careful, Art. You keep posting razer-sharp pictures of your tools on here and Dozerdan will be making "Art Martin" racing chains by New Years.


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## Art Martin

Doug,

I didn't think there was anyone crazy enough to subject themselves to hours of misery just to win trophies, but you never know.
Dozer Dan missed the boat since I made him a piece of racing chain for an item he as to give me in trade, but he didn't respond. Maybe I can sell it on Ebay.

Art Martin


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## kdhotsaw2

Very interesting art.
kdhotsaw


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## dbabcock

Art,
Who says one has to spend hours on a world class chain. Walt's chains only took an hour and a half and they were the fastest chains on the planet.


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## Art Martin

Doug,

Speaking about Walt, his super chain(the one John Lambert used in the Great Saw Race) mysteriously appeared in my mail box about a month or so ago. I have been studying it and finally put it in isolation away from all the racing chains hanging on the wall (about 25 of them) in case it had a virus since it looked morbid.
Too bad Ann Landers isn't still around so I could ask for advice.

Art Martin


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Art,
I understand that the rear part of the tooth cuts a narrower kerf and creates less chips, and you do most of the metal removal on the outside of the side plate to narrow the kerf even more, but what about the top plate? Is all the work done under the plate to increase the chip channel?
My thinking is that any work done to the top of the top plate would reduce the height of the chip channel.


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

To increase the chip channel size, the removal of the metal is from the inside only. The reduction of the kerf is just on the outside of the side plate. The top of the top plate isn't touched. This precedure doesn't make more chips or less chips, just eases the resistance to the volumn of chips that are flowing through the channel, thus allowing you to take the full advantage of the h.p. created by the engine, so it's not lost to friction loss. Like water flowing through a hose, the bigger the hose, the less the friction loss.

Art Martin


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Is the chrome removed from the top plate?

I also wonder about useing the front of the tooth as opposed to the rear. If the front of the tooth is used there will be a wider and taller chip channel, although there will also be more chips produced. 
Just thinking out loud here, wider kerf makes more chips, which cancels the benifit of wider chip channel. A taller tooth would increase the size of the chip channel, without making more chips. Does that make sense?


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

As I mentioned in my last post, “the top of the top plate isn’t touched” that includes chrome or any other metal. 
I don’t understand what you mean by “more chips produced”. The word “more” refers to quantity. How could more chips be produced by a cutter that removes a “chip” that has a cutting edge at the forward position of the tooth? Why would a tooth that has the cutting edge 3/16 of an inch farther back, not produce the same amount of chips? From where would these extra chips appear? Please explain this phenomenon. 

Art Martin


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Art,
The rear of the tooth cuts a narrower kerf due to the set angle built into the cutter, hence a lower volume of wood to cut the same distance. I was refering to distance cut, not time.


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

Apparently you are referring to the width of the chip. The width of the chip would be wider, so more torque from the engine would be required, this in turn would cut down on the rpms slightly, resulting in lower chain speed. With the same effort expended by the engine, the narrower kerf chain would be able to remove the same volume of wood with the same effort, but would be farther down the cut, say in exactly five seconds.

Art Martin


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## rahtreelimbs

> _Originally posted by Art Martin _
> *Many people have often asked, “why is the round filed chipper tooth chain not as fast as a square filed chisel tooth chain?”
> 
> Art Martin *



Art, are comparing semi-chisel to full-chisel here?


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## dbabcock

I think Art may be refering to the fact that a chipper tooth can only be round filed up in the corner where the side and top plates meet, due to the radiused tooth shape in this area. Since a chisel tooth, with its 90 degree rectangular corner can be filed with a rectangular file, this effectively separates the two edges, enabling an optimized angle on each, to address each's individual task . I think the key here is to have the cutting edges of each be separate and orthoganol right into the inside corner where they meet. Of course, I'm certainly not the expert here.


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## Art Martin

Doug,

The chisel tooth at the top intersection, where the side plate and the top plate come together, is not a true 90-degree angle (orthogonal) because of the set required (outward lean). The drawing posted by Mike Mass, dated 12-18-02 on page 14, clearly depicts this. Also, the correct top corner angles cannot be obtained with a rectangular file that is merely a flat file. It is with the special chisel bit files the correct positioning or posture can be obtained. Although it is not limited just to chisel bit files, since I don’t use them for racing chains. 

Art Martin


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## dbabcock

Art,
Well, it looks like I'll just have to come out and visit you and Marita as well as Ken and the Rupleys since obviously I can't seem to get this straight over the net. It's a good excuse for a trip anyway.


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## Art Martin

Doug,

We would be honored to have you come for a visit. The coffee will be on, the beer will be chilled, the food will be great and the B.S. will flow as if through an enlarged chip channel. I’m sure the Rupley brothers would also attend and we could have Ken come over even if we have to drive to his house to get him. I could put on a chain-filing seminar so you could keep up with Gypo and Dennis.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

rich hoffman,

The important cutting corner of a semi-chisel chain is still somewhat lower than that of a full chisel. Therefore, there is still the same type of ratio involved, that I mentioned, as with the chipper tooth, although not as much. With a semi-chisel you could overcome the problem slightly if you used a "Googy" file instead of a round file. That way you could could get a steeper inside side plate angle as well as a steeper inside top plate angle.
I've never tried this but it seems plausible.

Art Martin


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## John Ellison

Art
Very interesting thread. I wish I had a fraction of your knowledge on chain filing. Please keep it coming,my hats off to you. 
Merry Christmas Everybody! 

John


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## Art Martin

Well, I better get busy now that Christmas is over, so that all those who are interested can begin to get their chains ready for the next contest season. There is no particular order to do the steps that I have described. The main thing is to try to do them uniformly with as much precision as possible. The length of teeth that are cut back should all be the same length and the depth gauges should be exactly set the same, etc. Shoddy work won’t bring home the rewards. Having been a crosscut filer for years, has taught me how important even a few thousandths off is unacceptable. Even though chain filing is not that critical, try not to form bad habits or they can come back to haunt you.
The tie straps top edges are shaped to a sloping 45-degree angle. This procedure can be done with a file, except for the tie strap on the inside side of the tooth. The Dremel tool works well there if you choose to do the other tie straps with a file. I use the Dremel tool on all tie strap slopes. This step helps to lighten the chain and helps in the chip removal. When all the tie straps have been sloped, I usually put a round tooth sharpening stone in the Dremel tool and go over the doggy bone areas to remove the rough areas and sort of soften the surfaces of the tie straps. All the different steps we have covered may not seem all that important, but they are accumulative and they add up and when the chain is finished, it can take seconds off the cutting times.
The next step is to set up the de-chrome machine and reduce the side lead. This will help but isn’t totally necessary since most people don’t do it. When I first started de-chroming chains in the 60’s, I would put the saw in a large vise with chain on backwards. Then I would start the saw and run the saw at a fast idle and hold a stone against the teeth until the chrome was removed. After doing both sides this way, I filed the back end of each individual tooth a few strokes with a flat file so that the front of the tooth had some lead. This was kind of crude and somewhat dangerous, but my chains did cut faster. The de-chroming machine that I made is much easier and more accurate.

Art Martin
v


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## Art Martin

Here is a picture of the machine I made for de-chroming.

Art Martin


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## husky 2100

art about how many thous. are you taking off the outside of the cutter thanks mike


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## husky394

Thank you, Art, for posting this information. 

It has been my experience that racing chain filing remains the last "secret" area of lumberjack sports, at least in the east. If you watch the Stihl series or on TV or attend a contest, you may notice some of the contestants covering their chains with a rag until just before they are ready to start the saw. That thin cotton rag doesn't protect the chain from anything except prying eyes. Folks who will openly discuss axe grinds and crosscut sawing technique will "clam up" upon the mention of hotsaw chain. I know one fellow who has been sworn to secrecy concerning chain work.

This is the first time that I have ever seen instructions of this level of detail in print anywhere. 

Thank you again.


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## glens

*husky 2100 - "how much removed":*

I'm offering this response in an effort to help Mr. Martin not have to repeat his words.&nbsp; I think the answer to the "how much side material is removed" question has already been provided.&nbsp; See if you don't think so too by looking at the following specific links (and context).

The start of the process, where he states he bobs the cutter back to the rear rivet is at http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4932&perpage=20&pagenumber=10#post63002 (actually the entire process description starts in the reply just prior to that, but this is where he started to discuss the <i>cutter mods</i> particularly).

All three of the following replies are on the same resultant page, but it's probably easier to provide the discrete links anyway than to describe what to search for.&nbsp; He doesn't say directly how much side material he removes, but the information is "gleanable".

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4932&perpage=20&pagenumber=11#post63062

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4932&perpage=20&pagenumber=11#post63474

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4932&perpage=20&pagenumber=11#post63590


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## Art Martin

Mike,

It’s a hard question to answer and I’ll tell you why. First of all you have to take into consideration what pitch of chain it is, whether it is ½”, .404” or 3/8”etc. Then it depends at which place you measure it. If you take a measurement on a new tooth up front, the top plate is much wider there than when it is back over the rear rivet. After I grind the tooth back to the front of the rear rivet, I adjust the de-chroming machine to the slight “lead” that I mentioned in a previous post. Then I feed the tooth into the grinder slowly until there is only the slightest trace of chrome showing at the rear heel of the tooth. This is like a “gauge” that I use to get the same amount off each tooth. It would be almost impossible to measure this area with a micrometer because of the angle of the side plate. 
Now, if you were to disassemble the complete chain and surface grind the inside wall of each tooth, where the rivet holes are, .020” is the amount you would want to take off. This would reduce the kerf .040” since both sides are done.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

husky394,

What you related in your post about “secrets” in the area of chains is absolutely true. It’s been that way as long as I can remember. Nobody helped me except the retired champion who became a Homelite dealer in my hometown. His help was mainly in speed cutting techniques and engine modification. It was after many years of competing that I became proficient in filing fast chains, then other contestants wanted to get “chummy” with me. I only divulged to them what I wanted then to know but not the information that I obtained by my own testing, ideas, and long hours and expense.

Art Martin


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## don

*Mr. Martin ... that is why I asked*

to buy the knowledge and expertise from you in the form of a book or video.

I really appreciate what you have written here and would appreciate more.

I am willing to pay for the book or Pamphlet, brochure etc.


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## Rotax Robert

Once again Art, thanks for the info and pics....I ran another test tonight on your chain to see if it could hold up to this fight. Here is a Greffardized 046 with Art Martin chain vs 4 Lobsters. Results to come.


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## Rotax Robert

Here they are trying to fight a Martin race chain.


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## Rotax Robert

Another Trophy for ALL of us Arboristsite members; Sorry you missed this, but it tasted great.....Proper filing will feed you, Bad filing will get you burnt. Thanks and you know who you are.

ROTAX


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## don

*Rubber Bands*

You are lucky those rubber bands are holding those claws together or else they could clamp on the throttle?

So how many Lobsters does it take to beat an Art chain?


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## Fish

It is always important to play with your food, even make
friends with them. 
Dang, you got some big crawdads up there!


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Art,
I have a question about boiling lobster... 

Actually, I'm wondering about the grinding you do on the top of the drive links and tie straps. You mentioned you took the top off the drive links and put a grove in the top to doggie bone them. Then you mentioned you put a 45* angle on the top of the tie strap.

In studying the chain, it seems the drive link needs to be twice as strong as the tie straps, simply because there are two tie straps and one drive link.

Is the reason for the 45* angle simply because it can be ground without making the drive link weaker, or does this angle help move chips down and to the sides of the chain?


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

Let’s take a 3/8” pitch chain for example. The amount of metal above the rivet hole is about .093”. When you doggy bone a chain, you grind the metal from the area between the rivet holes leaving the radius measurement of at least .093” from the rivet hole. The amount of metal removed from that area doesn’t weaken the chain. As I mentioned in my previous post (Pg. 13, 12-13-02), removing the metal above the rivet hole to bring the top of the drive links even with the top of the tie straps is risky. That only leaves .040” of metal above the rivet hole. The 45° angle that is made on the top edge of the tie straps is part of the process of lightening the chain. That area is a safe area to remove metal from without any risk of weakening the chain. This “streamlines” the chain by removing the sharp areas, which in turn helps to rid the chips since the surface area is reduced. This enables the chips to drop out easier when they come out of the cut. A flat area tends to carry more chips back into the cut as the chain goes around the sprocket.

Art Martin


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## Kneejerk Bombas

That makes sense.
I noticed some chain has the drive ink already doggie boned on top. I was measuring some .325 drivelinks and it only has .060" of metal above the rivet but has about .090 in front of the rivet. Do you think there is a strength advantage to having all that metal in the front and rear parts of the drive link?

Also, what do you think about drilling a hole in the lower portion of the drive link. I know some of the chain sold now has holes that are supposed to drag more oil around the bar, and I would think it would lighten the chain up a bit too.


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## Art Martin

mike maas,

No on the first question.
Drilling a hole or cutting a thin slot on each drive link could have some advantage in bringing more oil to the groove of the bar. I seen some race chain makers do this. I don't do it because the holes get plugged up with sawdust and creates a drag while the chain going through the cut thus canceling out any advantage gained by the extra oil or weight reduction.

Art Martin


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## jokers

Hi Art, I just wanted to thank you again for sharing your unique insight and hard won knowledge so freely and in such depth here, of course I also recognize that things would have been different in your competition days, LOL. I too would jump on the band wagon and gladly purchase bits of your knowledge put to paper, but I don`t want to understate your generosity or my appreciation either. The fact that this thread currently has over *250 replies and 9700 views* is a strong testament to the value that people put in your words. Russ


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## Art Martin

jokers,

Thanks for the kind words. As you can tell, I am not sworn to secrecy to anyone. I guess those that are, don't want any "outsiders" to infiltrate their lucrative domination of the logging sports. 
I just want to promote the sport that I have been affiliated with for around 50 years. I feel that this is a good way to get more people started and to help them along with knowledge that is so hard to obtain from others. 

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Before we talk about the sharpening phase, you need a vise that holds the tooth that is being filed completely stationary. Also the top of the vise must be narrow enough to allow the filer to have full movement of the stroke, both up and down as well as sideways. If you try to file a chain on a large bench vise, the vise itself will obstruct the downward movement and not let you get the proper angles. The vise itself must be high enough so the file doesn't bump anything. I made my vise out of two pieces of planer blades, bolted together, with a .063" drive link separating the planer blades at each end with the bolts going through the rivet holes. I mounted the two blades on two pieces of angle iron bolted together that allows me to put the filing vise into my large bench vise. Then I took a short piece of round 1” steel stock and drilled a hole so the axis of revolution was displaced from the center, allowing me to impart pressure on the drive link below the tooth being sharpened. I threaded a handle on that eccentric shaft with a knob on it for easy movement.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Here is another view of my filing vise.


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## Art Martin

I have been talking about the “optimum cutting angle” for a long time on many different threads. In order to keep the chain cutting at constant efficiency throughout the life of the chain, the depth gauges should be lowered accordingly. To help understand this principle, the attachment should help.

Art Martin


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## glens

*attack angle*

Art,

Thank you for providing that image.&nbsp; There's something a little curious about it.&nbsp; Specifically, there are a couple of points which make it seem a bit simplistic to me.

First is that when the tooth is rocked back relative to it's direction of travel, the relative depth of cut decreases, until it's eventually nothing.&nbsp; At .025" depth with the "raker" leading the point by .25", the angle is 5.7&deg;.&nbsp; That is, 5.7&deg; from 0 relative depth.&nbsp; 

Maintaining that angle (distance-to-depth of 10:1), .038" depth would result in .38" distance to the cutting point, which barely reaches the front of the rear rivet on my 3/8 RS chain.&nbsp; There is fully another 1/8" (1/2" total) of useful distance from the "raker".&nbsp; At .5" distance, the depth gauge would need to be .050" by the formula implied in that attached image.

Another way of looking at it is that at .5" setback and .038" depth, the angle has lessened from 5.7&deg; to 4.3&deg;.&nbsp; So from that standpoint there seems to be some discrepancy, or at least indication of simplicity in the information (since the angle would not be maintained).

When I take a couple of quick measurements on my 3/8 RS chain, I see that the cutting edge of the top plate starts as approx. 5mm and lessens to approx. 4mm at the rear witness mark.&nbsp; That's a 1.25:1 ratio, and applying that factor to the initial depth setting of .025" would result in a setting of .031" to maintain the same cross-sectional area of "chip" being removed (or volume per length of chip).

Now that last bit was not based upon precise measurements, and I would certainly not be surprised to see variation in one direction or the other.&nbsp; Let's assume it's accurate for the moment.&nbsp; 

If for some reason the tooth actually does cut with the leading rivet at a greater distance from the bar than the trailing rivet (and I concede that the tendency to attempt to do that would increase as the cutting corner approaches a position above the rear rivet, and even more so as it falls behind the rivet) then that would certainly lessen the <i>effective</i> depth setting.&nbsp; If indeed that occurs, then when the depth gauge is lowered beyond that necessary to compensate for the shorter top plate cutting edge, as further compensation for the altered orientation of the tooth, the vertical angle of the sideplate cutting edge would need to be brought forward to ensure that the point leads by the proper amount on that plane as well.&nbsp; Is any mention of that made in the literature?&nbsp; Have you experimented with <i>that</i>?

This is all armchair engineering on my part.&nbsp; I say that to let you know that I know that.&nbsp; I feel that proportionately lowering the depth gauges is the good and proper thing to do in order to maintain the amount of material the cutter will remove in use over it's lifespan.&nbsp; It's obvious that it actually works, whatever the possible explanation.&nbsp; It's also obvious that the increased distance from the depth gauge to the cutting point of a used chain imparts greater kickback tendencies to it, and that by progressively lowering the depth gauges to maintain the volume of chip produced increases those tendencies even further.

Perhaps my point could be summarized by saying I feel that diagram is a bit more marketing gimmickry for the File-O-Plate than it is scientific. (not to say the File-O-Plate is a gimmick)

By the way, don't you think that the drag of a dozen following cutters, all trying to do that same thing, would tend to pull the lead rivet down to a position directly inline with it's heel rivet and that of the previous cutter?&nbsp; There must be tremendous force on the heel of the cutter link!


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## Tzed250

*rocking*

The tooth most definately cuts with the leading rivet farther from the bar than the trailing rivet.


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## Crofter

GLENS;

Your tone seems to indicate a feeling of authority on the subject yet you also speak of "armchair engineering". Art Martins knowledge of the subject is world class and supported by winning results in competitions. Your dissertation needs a lot of clarificatio before it would get any serious consideration here.

Frank


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## Art Martin

glens,

Thanks for your response concerning the “optimum cutting angle” that I posted. Although the drawing was somewhat off the subject of racing chains, there remained some confusion about that subject in my previous posts on other threads. I felt that it was appropriate for people to see how the depth gauge controls the size of the chips as is clearly illustrated in this drawing. I certainly do not intend to duplicate, challenge or spend time obtaining the measurements that you submitted in your post. I just don’t understand what you were getting at. I do however think you missed the point since the optimum cutting angle and chip size is clearly illustrated at the front portion of each drawing as the tooth raises up from the bar. The side plate and top plate angles remain the same regardless of the length of the tooth. The depth of the depth gauge, when you are using other chains such, as the .404” and ½” pitch chains, are different because of the length of the teeth. For example, on a ½” chain the depth gauges could be set at .060” or more, when the tooth is filed back over the rear rivet. On a new ½” chain the depth of the depth gauge is .030”.

I am more inclined to accept the findings of Ray R. Carlton, who was the founder of Carlton Chains. At the time he came out with the File-O-Plate (1982), he had already devoted 34 years to the design and manufacture of chainsaw chain. The design of the File-O-Plate was the result of countless hours of research by his engineers who came out with that tool. Until that tool was devised, there were adjustable depth gauges on the market, but few people knew at what depth to set them correctly. The result of not having the knowledge and understanding of the progressive method was erratic cutting and undue wear on the chains.

I use an adjustable gauge and not the File-O-Plate because I know where to set my depth gauges from experience, and also because I file a variety of different pitched chains. However, I would like to mention that I have no interest in the File-O-Plate industry or am I affiliated in any way with the Carlton Chain Company. I do, however, think that the File-O-Plate tool is an asset to those less experienced saw operators to at least have their depth gauges set at the right level. 

Art Martin


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## rupedoggy

Crofter- Art isn't perfect but he ???? sure is the best filer on this or any other forum as far as my money is concerned. Having said that I want to also say he is a big boy now and can stand up for himself if he feels slighted.
I don't feel that Glens was doing anything but thinking out loud. I appreciate it. I read his dissertation and was impressed. He is showing a grasp and understanding of the subject. His thoughts just might lead to other experiments and help other to improve. 
I don't know if you remember Walt Galer. People on this forum liked his writing. When he said some things that were just not so, some of us called him on it. Others backed Walt to the hilt and even when he was proven wrong he had a lot of support. Thing is he is gone now. I don't know why but suspect part of it is because he was embarrassed. (I would welcome his imput on this if he still reads this forum).
Point I am trying to make is let others have a say. This thread especially is a refreshing change from most of the questions I see:
1.Hey guys I got an xyz123 saw and want to know what you think of it? (usually posted by a guy that has a 1 after his name and then never posts again) or
2.Hey guys if I open my muffler will I have to realign my fizzwig or recalibrate my splelunkometer?
3.If Ken Dunn fixes up my Eagerbeaver will I be able to go on ESPN and beat Jim Taylor, Jason Winyard, and Rick Halvorson by two seconds or three?
Well you get the idea. Mike


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## glens

Art,

I was a little apprehensive about how my ramblings might be received after seeing Crofter's response.&nbsp; Thank you for responding in the manner which you did.

You said you just didn't understand what I was getting at, and I would like to try to explain that, perhaps better than I had done.

In the leftmost cutter in your earlier attachment (<a href="http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=65550" target=_blank">here</a>), the depth gauge is represented as being set to .025" <i>in the plane parallel to the two rivets</i>, and the cutter is portrayed as being rocked back about 5&deg;.&nbsp; The bottom of the piece of wood is shown as parallel to the guide bar.&nbsp; If the cutter were dragged 90&deg; to the right, the top plate would surely dig into the wood fiber and attempt to continue going ever deeper.&nbsp; This would result in the cutter pivoting clockwise on the depth gauge, thus raising the heel of the cutter until such time as the rivets were parallel to the bar once again, only then achieving the full cut-depth of .025".&nbsp; If at any time the heel were raised higher than the toe (for lack of the proper term if that's not it), the cut depth would become greater than .025".&nbsp; Recall that the entire cutter assembly is moving in a perfectly horizontal direction in this hypothetical case.&nbsp; If at any time the toe were to rise higher than the heel, the depth of cut would become less than .025".&nbsp; 

If for some reason, in that leftmost cutter oriented as shown, the top plate cutting surface did not enter the wood, in it's strictly horizontal motion the cutter would not produce any chips at all.&nbsp; I know that's obvious, but that's sort of my point.&nbsp; That image, in all it's parts, is proclaiming that unless the entire cutter is tipped back by the "optimum angle" that it will not produce the best cut.&nbsp; If you followed what I said above, you would see what I'm seeing in the image.&nbsp; That is, that <i><b>as long as the motion is strictly horizontal, and the top corner of the cutter remains the same height from the bar as is the depth gauge, there will be no chip</b></i>.&nbsp; Only at such time as the rivets are fully in line with the direction of motion will the cut produce a chip of the thickness set by the depth gauge as it was set in a plane parallel to the rivet centers.

I have no doubt that in actual use, and <i>especially when the cutting corner is back in the vicinity of the heel</i>, that the toe will unavoidably rise a small amount, and that the torque/leverage will hold it there.&nbsp; If the top corner of the cutting edge is 0.5" behind the top of the depth gauge, and the cutter is rocked back 1&deg;, the top of the depth gauge will <i>rise from the bar</i> by .009" ( 9 &divide; 500 = tan 1&deg; ) in relation to the top of the cutting point.&nbsp; That jibes closely with the combination of my earlier analysis and the final figure for depth setting in your attachment.&nbsp; <b>To rehash:</b>&nbsp; since the cutter width is less at the heel, the depth needs to be increased proportionately (my part of the argument) and since the tooth rides tilted back by a minute amount as a result of the rearset cutting corner, the depth needs to be increased a smidgen more.&nbsp; Increase the depth by .006" due to width loss, and by .009" due to "rock-back", for a total result of (25+9+6) .040".&nbsp; Very close to Carlton's figure.&nbsp; Take away a mil or two for my steel rule measurements and you have .038" (on a 3/8" pitch chain).

It should be plain that while I agree with the resultant depth setting, it's for an entirely different reason than depicted in that File-O-Plate advert.&nbsp; In fact, I really don't see how that depicted line of thought is even plausible.

A cutter filed back to 1/2" behind the depth gauge, and the depth gauge set to 38 mils, will "work" at a depth of 29 mils if the cutter is rocked back by 1 degree, with the net result being the same volume of material being removed as a new cutter set to work at 25 mils and 0 degrees backtilt.&nbsp; Roughly, according to my (corrected?) calculations.

So now, for the sake of argument, the cutter is ground back to the heel and the depth gauge is set to compensate for both decreased width and for tilt.&nbsp; If one had ground their chain with a static side plate cutting angle of 90&deg; from the horizontal, in use they would be running at 91&deg;, which would mean the top corner was the rearwardmost part of that surface.&nbsp; If the original angle were 89&deg; it would actually be working at 90&deg;, etc.&nbsp; I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.

Is that bad science on my part?&nbsp; It's certainly simplistic in that not all factors have been included, but within the limits of the example, nothing more involved than simple trigonometry is needed.

I have full confidence that you produce race chains in the very top tier of the performance realm.&nbsp; I would be a complete fool for even thinking, let alone suggesting, otherwise.&nbsp; Most certainly I want you do know that I'm not even attempting to call that into question.

Thanks for your time.&nbsp; I look forward to hearing you say you understood my attempt at describing my understanding of the matter, and then what you have to say about it.

Glen


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## Art Martin

Glens,

I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me from all your measurements, that you think each individual tooth is dragged continuously in the cutting position through the entire diameter of the cut. 

The purpose of the depth gauge is to meter the amount of wood that the tooth takes as it makes repetitious “bites” along its travel through the cut. If you were to grind off the depth gauges entirely, the tooth would remain in its “attack” mode throughout the cut. Without the controlling component, the depth gauge, the chain would be worthless. The depth gauge stops this continuous function and limits the chain to a multitude of small “bites” with the thickness being preset with the depth gauge. I don’t know of any reason the heel of the tooth would be forced to rise up higher than the front of the tooth. That seems to me would go against any law of physics. 

To have a smooth running chain, all the depth gauges must be set at the same height. This is accomplished with a depth gauge. If you had a reading of .025”on some teeth, .035”or .040” on others dispersed throughout the chain, the result would be a very rough cutting chain. I have read countless posts submitted by woodcutters that state that they file their depth gauges with two or three strokes of the file without a gauge. If they do this throughout the life of the chain, they could have a .020” difference in some of the teeth. 

With all respect, my opinion of the detailed measurements that you submitted is based on inconclusive conjecture and are presumptive on your part and do not reflect any realism to actuality of tests that I have performed throughout my nearly fifty years in the field of wood cutting. The purpose of the subject that I am trying relay, to those who are interested in racing chains and competition, are methods that have been tried and proven without a lot of confusion brought on by highly technical data which are not necessary to win contests.

Since you are viewing the drawing in an atypical position, print the picture and turn it upside down and maybe that will help you see it the way I do, at least it puts it in a different perspective.

Art Martin


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## JimL

They still sell those adjustable gauges?? I had one and i am pretty sure it got stolen...


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## Kneejerk Bombas

*Adjustable depth guages.*

My friend has one. He guards it with his life(particularly when I'm around). 

Does anyone know of these for sale anywhere?

We talked about making a few of our own. Do you think the part the file rides on is hardened?


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## Art Martin

The gauge that I use was on Ebay and it cost me alot but I had to have it. What I did with mine was to glue a strip of .004" brass shim stock to the bottom edge where it rides on the top of the teeth to protect the cutting edge of the top plate. Of coarse you have to take into consideration the .004" thickness when adjusting the depth. The surface where the file rides is hardened. The gauges that they sell now that are not adjustable and are set at .025" or .030" to me are worthless. 

Art Martin


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## eyolf

Art sez: <b><i>The purpose of the depth gauge is to meter the amount of wood that the tooth takes as it makes repetitious “bites” along its travel through the cut. </i></b>

Now, I guess I learned something, because I guess I believed that each cutter more or less cut all the way across the kerf. Upon further thought, I wondered "how in the world would the chain be able to clear all the chips if that were the case"?

So, thinking further, full comp chain "feels" smoother in the cut because each little "chomp" (as the cutters bounce in and out of the wood) is a lot closer to every other one...both because the cutters are closer, and because there are twice as many of them running through the kerf per unit of time.


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## glens

Art,

Hello, and thanks for continuing the dialog, I realize it's tangential to your topic of racing chain production, and I'm nearly ready to butt out.

You understand correctly that I think each individual tooth is dragged continuously in the cutting position throughout the cut.&nbsp; At least I consider that to be the ideal and desired condition, while realizing it doesn't always occur.

Isn't the greatest return on the horsepower and time investment made while each cutter is severing the full width and depth to which it's set?&nbsp; Wouldn't the best overall efficiency be achieved were each cutter to ride it's depth gauge and maintain full cutting orientation for it's entire pass through the diameter of cut?&nbsp; I understand that the varying cross-sectional makeup of logs (as well the presence of slices previously liberated) often prohibits such continuous cutting action, but I must say it takes me by a bit of surprise to hear that the cyclic loss and re-establishment of cut is considered to be a good thing.&nbsp; I would think such behavior is an unfortunate side-effect and not a design feature, yet I believe I'm hearing you say it's the latter.

I fully understand the function of the depth gauge insofar as it includes limiting the thickness of the slice.&nbsp I oftentimes use a wood chisel as a plane to remove small bits of material where smoothness of the bottom of the cut is not critical, and for small areas only.&nbsp; I don't hesitate to grab my hand plane whenever it's more appropriate.&nbsp; The difference in function, control, and safety the depth control of the plane affords vs. the bare chisel is very real.

I've noticed with my hand plane that while going across the side of the grain, the slice often breaks into short pieces; yet going fully with the grain the slice will typically continue to curl until interference or some other factor causes it to break.&nbsp; In both cases, the slice is the same continuous thickness.&nbsp; Maybe it's just my imagination, but it has always seemed to me that exactly the same thing occurs with my saw chain.&nbsp; I've always considered the production of chips in the cross-cut to simply be the same phenomenon - enhanced, certainly, by the lesser precision of the cutting mechanism.&nbsp; The type of effluent from the cut seems to typically be slightly longer curls near the start and finish of the diameter, with shorter chips in the middle.&nbsp; And when ripping with the chain motion fully parallel to the grain, they will typically remain intact, reaching great lengths.

Regarding the maintenance of the depth gauges, well, doing it freehand is something that scares the tar out of me.&nbsp; I have not yet held and inspected the Pferd file holder which individually maintains the depth gauges while touching up the cutters, but I plan to soon.&nbsp; Although it appears to me that they are not progressively lowered as with the File-O-Plate, for example, it really seems like a good tool to bring to the woods.

Just a couple more points and I'll likely be done.

I don't think that the rear foot of the cutter would rise above the front one in any measurable way in any typical instance.&nbsp; I guess it could happen for some reason, but winning the PowerBall lottery would likely be a much more recurring event.&nbsp; I'd only mentioned it to illustrate my point about the changing depth setting vs. link attitude relative to chain direction.

About my measurement:&nbsp; what's so inconclusive and conjectural about saying a 0.19" wide by 0.025" thick by 1" long chip is 0.0048 cubic inches and to obtain the same volume at 0.16" wide it must be 0.030" thick?&nbsp; Or that a run of 0.5" at 1&deg; rises 0.009"?&nbsp; Those are simple mathematical equations.&nbsp; If a new tooth cuts, on average, 0.060 c.i. per foot, and at the end of it's life, after the depth has been increased to compensate for the loss in width, it requires an additional 0.009" be taken off the depth gauge (which, say, leads the cutter by 1/2") to achieve 0.060 c.i. per foot, then it's obvious the tooth is riding at a 1&deg; incline compared to new.&nbsp; Remember, this is on average.&nbsp; I have in mind a possibly good way to actually measure the results.

Once again, I want to thank you for your time and consideration in the matter.&nbsp; I certainly hope that you don't feel inconvenienced or disrespected in any way.

Glen


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## Art Martin

glens,

It’s hard to carry on a dialog with you because of your ambiguous statements.

It seems to me that you are trying to disprove long established and proven facts. I haven’t a clue why. You made a statement that you still think that each tooth is dragged continuously through the cut in the cutting position throughout the cut. Then you go on to say you realize that it doesn’t occur. How can you think something is true even when you realize it’s not true? It’s like saying you think the earth is flat but you realize it is round. How would you design a hooded tooth to remain in a stationary position of riding flat while being mounted with rivets at both ends to enable it to go around the sprocket on one end and a roller tip on the other end of the bar. Then being subjected to a force of severing wood fiber? Of course, you would need a tractor engine to pull the chain. I’ll tell you one way, go back to the “scratcher” chain, which is the closest thing for your theory. Also don’t leave out the fact that you would need a chainsaw that would weigh close to 50 pounds with 3 to 1 ratio gears to be able to pull the chain.

What I was referring to as conjecture is that you haven’t brought into your equations the following:
1. Type of wood,
2. Second growth or virgin timber,
3. Moisture content
4. Knots
5. Ridge top timber
6. Valley timber
7. Wood texture (i.e., Alder as opposed to Eucalyptus)
8. Springy timber
9. Growth ring
10. Oak
11. Redwood
12. Douglas Fir
13. Cottonwood
14. Pine
15. Hickory

I could go on and on. You seem to be treating all wood in the same context with your volume calculations and mathematical equations. You don’t take into consideration the pressure applied by the operator that could alter any formula. This is what I was referring to as inconclusive. You have to remember when you work in the woods, it’s not in some laboratory or classroom.

Art Martin


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## glens

Art,

It seems as though you'd hastened to reply before scrutinizing my material.&nbsp; It makes me feel as though I've offended you.&nbsp; Please accept my sincere apology.

I hope you'll reconsider both sentences in the second paragraph of my previous post.&nbsp; Perhaps you'd read the first, which was constructed with as much of your exact wording as possible, and glossed over the second, which I'd intended to qualify it.&nbsp; Actually, as I read the subsequent paragraph, it sheds further light upon my mindset.&nbsp; I hope you'll see that the original statement concerns the ideal only, and not what is considered to be the result actually achieved in practice.

(I understand that scratcher chain operated with an uncontrolled depth of cut as opposed to the hooded tooth which is precisely limited in that respect.&nbsp; I don't understand how it is you think I'm trying to say otherwise.)

I'll try to work on my communication skills before the next time I chime in here.

Thank you for your time,
Glen


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## stihltech

*ssshhhh*

Sometime it is best just to sit back and listen. Please continue Art.


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## Marky Mark

*What type of file*

I have gone thru your posts Art and I could not find if you mentioned it or not but when you do your hand filing what type of file do you use. 
In the Baileys catalog there are two types of files for the square chisel chain. 

1; 3 corner chisel file part number 15015
2; double beveled chisel file part number 15020

I would like to know what you would advise a beginner to start with or are these files used for different applications?

Thanks


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## Art Martin

Marky Mark,

I will get to that subject soon unless I get blind-sided again. I’ve got some other steps to discuss concerning racing chains before I talk about the files and honing.

stihltech,

You’re correct about just sitting back and listening. I thought this might turn into another “great chainsaw race” which started out under similar circumstances.

Art Martin


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Art, I havent quite got the Silvey sur sharp mastered yet. I get a sidebeak and end up over compensating and removing to much metal. I have tried with lowering and raising the stone. Sometimes I get right in the corner. I wish this grinder would allow simple clamping of the drivers. I think a grinder could be made to be more simple and user friendly for square chain. I'm just whining I know, but I hope to master it soon. Regardless, my efforts have paid off and its real smooth compared to round chisel.
KD has been a real saint in his efforts to help me, even modifying a stone for me. I diamond dress often but gently. Getting the right forward and sideways adjustment of the cutters into the stone seems to be the hard part.
John


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## z4lunch

*Razur sharp II*

John,
Steve here...
Ken set my Silvey up too, and what I found when I get side beaks is the tooth needs to go to the stone a little more. If I get top beaks the tooth need to get backed away. I have not messed with the stone hight on the motor shaft. i guess the biggest thing I found is to start out with the shortest tooth, which I'm sure you know. As long as it's not rocked too bad. Going from a factory round ground chain, and then grinding it square does remove quite a bit of tooth, but you need to, to get across the whole top plate. I like the blue stone the best. 
Steve


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## Art Martin

John,

On your Silvey Razur Sharp II, to get a thinner inside side plate for faster cutting, you need to reduce the 8" wheel to a 7". also, you need to drill a new hole on the groved chain holder to move it forward toward the wheel on both sides.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

The picture of the filing vise that I posted recently is definitely my favorite. There is another chain holder that works good. It can be made from a discarded bar where the groove is not too sloppy. An adjustable pressure type clamp is mounted on the side of the bar with small bolts. This bar is a multi-purpose tool because it is also used for honing. 

Art Martin


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## Harley

Hello Art:

Just for curiosity. How much do you think all of your equipment for making a racing chain is worth? Thanks.


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## FSburt

Boy Art if you got a Dollar for every reply in this post you would have some bank. Is this a record for most number of replys in a Posted subject.


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## Art Martin

Harley,

That’s a good question, but hard to answer. I use the following equipment just for making racing chains: a Silvey Razur II that is for roughing out the inside angles, but not for finishing; a dechromer (that took several weeks to complete); a the surface grinder for reducing the inside body of individual teeth on a dismantled chain; a bench grinder/sharpener for cutting back the teeth and doggy boning etc.; a drill press for grinding rivets, chain vises, rivet spinner, countless files and gauges.

I have more invested in chains, saws, and bars. There are about 40 different racing chains hanging on the wall of my workshop. Then there is a 090 Stihl, a 820 West Bend, a 655 Poulan, a 680 Solo in a box at Ken’s, three 056 Stihls and at least 10 bars.

I will probably sell the entire lot to the highest bidder soon.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

After reading the post on fullskip vs. frozen wood thread dated 1-08-03, I am bowing out of this thread because apparently I lack “authoritative clarity” about chains. I think that the author of that post should continue in my place as he apparently has an abundance of “authoritative clarity” on every subject. I don’t want my lowly, baseless opinions to interfere with his ”authoritative clarity”. I will let that author submit his mathematical measurements of the critical angles required for completing a finished racing chain. He can also throw in some honing advice and probably share his vast knowledge of files too.

Art Martin


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Art,

Don't bow out just because of one person,there are alot of people here who like to hear what you have to say about all aspects of chains etc..I would like to see this thread till the end but not with you bowing out..

Later Rob..


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## dbabcock

DON'T LEAVE, ART!!!!

There are perhaps a handfull of people who post here that may be considered bonafide experts at their craft and you're right at the top of the list. Just the fact that you are willing to share your decades of acquired knowlege with the rest of us is amazing in its own right. Of all of the thousands of people who have benefited from your posts here, who gives a sh!t if one or two don't appreciate what you've contributed. If you leave, then the 99% of the people on this board who would otherwise continue to learn from your experiences will be the ones coming up short because of the 1% who don't get it. I also know how much you enjoy teaching your craft as well as interacting with others here.

I'm an engineer. I have no less than 8 years of formal college and post grad advanced mathematics under my belt and I can tell any of those who don't know it here, that trying to analyze this kind of stuff using first order approximations will only result in a headache. I'm not saying that a mathematical analysis of what's going on when the chain goes through the wood would never result in anything applicable, it's just that all this first order crap about 3/8" chain and the tangent of the angle that the cutting surface makes as the tooth rocks back will get you no closer to filing a better chain than if you went out and just threw a loop at a Silvey grinder. The physics of the situation are multiorder. What this means is that there are so many little things that are going on at the same time, that the errors accumulated by ignoring them in an analysis would make the original estimate virtually worthless. 

Art Martin is not a mathematician. If he remembers any of the math he learned in school, I doubt that much of it would apply here. Most people on this board are not mathematicians either. Putting up all of this math analysis stuff on this thread is a waste of time and typing skills. Art will not argue with the math because he doesn't calculate how to file his chains, he just files them because he has developed the skills to do so over many years. There's got to be a reason why it takes years to get proficient at filing square chain. If there wasn't, then someone would have already figured out how to plug numbers into a computer and have a machine do it for us.

This thread is one of the most popular on AS and for good reason. It is one of the very few where you can actually learn something that applies to how well all CHAINsaws cut. At 13,000+ views, I'd say that people are interested, Art. A lot of people.


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## ricksvar

Most everyone is going to ask questions,it's a way those truely interested lean.

Art,Come on back,don't be a "powder puff".

I've allways wanted to hear more about that full house chain!

Rick


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## don

*Please continue ART*

Gonna sell your Race Saw sharpening equipment?
Gonna bow out of this discussion forum?
I don't know what to write to change your mind nor do I understand why you would bow out. (Especially because of someone eles viewpoint)

The difficulty with any discussion forum is the way it is accomplished. All in written form. The main determining factor of how someone says something in our society is the tone of the voice. There is really no way to have this on a forum unless we have little movies of each reply.

Even though I print the letters GREAT ! What does it mean? It is accented and really interpreted by the tone of the voice and situation. Not easily translated by you from my writing style.

Personally I think there is more going on. Personal health, someone elses health, have something else to do etc. You have a other things to do with your time. Like do the ART MARTIN's GUIDE TO CHAINSAW CHAIN available on video book and audio tapes!

The only emotional way I can write the impact you have had on my abilities and views on the working with wood is very positive.

For you to leave this site (based on your written comment) is like havng a family member write a note saying they are not going to see me anymore because there are too many crazy people on the road when they drive on over here. OR don't want to come over because the friend you had over the other day really annoys me.

What ever your decision, (maybe we can urge you to tell us more) thank you for sharing your experience. You made me a better person because of what you wrote on this site. Thank you.


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## Ryan Willock

Art, don't go!!! i for one thourghly enjoy reading your post!!! i have learned a lot!!! i am one of those people who enjoy learning from my elders instead of insulting them or ignoring them and taking them for granted. i would rather learn from someone else's mistakes than have to make my own and do it the hard way!!! 

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us Art!!!!:angel:


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## JimL

Don't let some jackass pencil pusher think he is better than you, just ignore him. 

We all know that you have forgotten more than everyone here knows...


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## rahtreelimbs

Art,

Someone told me (when I was young and thought I knew it all) to listen to the voice of experience. On the subject of chains and sharpening *you * are the voice. So lets all just sit back and listen!


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## woodsjunkie

I personal have sat back and read every post that Art has made in this thread and have enjoyed each and every one.
I have also printed them out and made a special folder for them.
I am actully learning to square file thanks to Art.
The chain's are actually cutting wood "simply amazing".
Art I sure hope you don't let these "ignorant" people get the best of you.
Please Art Keep sharing you wealth of Knowledge
Eric


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## Crofter

Art:

I have been applying some of your advice on square filing and have seen some real improvements. The chain vice you illustrated works so much better than trying to file on the saw. I converted a round filed Carlton chain. Since I didn't cut it back to the rear rivet but left full length, I didn't get the 32 degree side plate you reccommend and my side plate hook is nearer to vertical than the hook you suggested. In the next sharpenings I will move towards your figures. We tested it on a Stihl 066 on some 8 inch green frozen birch and found it averaged 10% faster than new Stihl round filed chisel chain. About ten cuts each alternating operators. What was really impressive was the difference in appearance of the chips. The chips from the chisel chain had markedly less curl and crushing of the severed fibers and the end of the cut was much smoother. Your explanation of how it is a more efficient cutter makes sense when you see the results (even with my crude chain butchery) I am waiting anxiously for your instructions on razor honing; you've got me hooked. Thanks

Frank


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## timberwolf

Thank you Art, I have enjoyed your posts both for thier insight into years of chain and saw sharpening, as well as the wealth of historical content. I hope you return and share more with us.

From what I understand this thread is and was intended as a platform for sharing your stories, photos, and wealth of knowledge. It was unfortunate to have folks steering it into a debate, as there are lots of more debate suited threads on the site. 

I think it might be good if a discussion thread was started on chain sharpening, and maybe one on engine preformance as well. I wouldn't think that this would in anyway detract from the Art Marten thread, I would just hope that having some discussion oriented threads would give those who mainly want to but heads a place to do that. In turn it would allow a platform for persons like yourself to share thier experiences.

Thanks 
Timberwolf


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## Tony Snyder

beginner was into putting metal filings into his dads saw, now he is suggesting Art send viruses.
Who knows the evil that lurks in the hearts of boys?

You know, I like the old Jerry Clower tapes; on one he speaks of the 98% of the the young people that are good, but what we hear most about are the 2% that are rotten. I'll leave you all to your own conclusions of that.

I don't believe the boy is worthy to offer advise to a hero like Art Martin.


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## Tony Snyder

Mr. Martin, Do you care to explain to us if water soaked frozen wood dulls chains faster that dry warm wood?


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## daveb

> _Originally posted by beginner _
> * the chains that these [email protected]@ses are trying to sharpen. *


did this kid just call us jackasses? I'm sick of this punk, he's on my ignore list. 
Art, I enjoy your authorative posts on this subject, please continue.


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## Jock

As a 4th generation logger, I was surprised and pleased to see someone who actually know's what they are talking about, and I hope Mr Martin you will continue to keep us all glued to the screen, with your wealth of informative information.......Jock


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## Tony Snyder

beginner, if you don't start coming up with some common sense and manners pretty quick, some of us "jackasses" may just turn up on your doorstep and give you some hands-on help.


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Jock, I am interested about logging techniques in the British Isles. What type of timber do you have there, and how is it harvested? Is it mostly plantation, and what does a saw cost there? 
Most North Americans may think logging isnt a big thing there, but I know they produce alot of timber.
I hope to go to Scotland one day as my Mother's Father was from Scotland.
We also have the Mighty Scots Pine here, which has become naturalized, but it rarely grows to good form. The Red Pine does much better.
Did you hear about the two gay Scotsmen?
Patrick Fitzwilliam and William Fitzpatrick
John


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## dbabcock

I think you'll find that it's an Irish joke, John.


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## eyolf

Yes, I'm sure that will entice Mr Martin back!


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## Jock

Hi Gypo, We are the biggest producers of timber in the U.K. and all softwood plantations are harveted by machines, ie; Timberjacks etc, Loggers are thin on the ground here now, as most were abused financially over the years, so decided to get out, fortunately the ones who hung around can now reep the benifits by following harvesters and felling the single trees which are to big for them, I personally work for the Forestry Commission, and employ around 10 men so things are'nt so bad, all work is local sometimes 10 minutes away, and at the most 40 mins, monies ok, around £4.00 per ton, or metre, the trees average 3-4 tons, a good cutter will cut around 10-12 trees per day (cut, dressed, sned logged and turned) we need that as fuel costs around $9.00 CDN per gallon and saws like a 036- 44 come in at around £500 GBP, safety trousers approx £80.00, boots around £120.00, I know its more expensive than in Canada and the States, as i'm a frequent visitor there. I recently drove from the Soo down to Midland, and the forestry appeared similar to here, but didnt see any operations going on, (to which my wife was very pleased about), wher in Scotland do you originate from?, and if you are coming here I'll show you around some sites, and possibly a bar or two.......Jock


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## bwalker

> Soo down to Midland, and the forestry appeared similar to here, but didnt see any operations going on,


Jock, The area you drove through has alot of logging going on. The is really true from West Branch north. Grayling and Gaylord both have large mills and there is alos alot of veneer/hardwood lumber cutting going on. The upper peninsula of Mi also has alot of activity as there are many mills up there. BTW I live about 20 Minutes from Midland. Next time your in the area let me know. Ill buy you a brew or in your case maybe a scotch.


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## Gypo Logger

Hi Jock, I'm only 90 minutes from Midland Ontario, drop by when your up here. I'm a lazy logger by nature and work alone, looking only for Green Gold. 80 tons of hardwood logs is about all I do every month, also extracting the firewood to be sold in random lenghts. I will have to get back to you on where Mom's Dad was from. I promise to look you up when I get to go to Scotland.
Ben are we talking about the same Midland?
John


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## Art Martin

Even though I have not met most of you, I feel you are my friends and that makes me appreciate all of you who have written and called expressing concern that I have not posted for some time. I want to thank you for your encouragement, support and the kind words to continue covering the subject of this post. It is very gratifying to know that I have had some impact on people learning to file chains properly that was my intent in the beginning of this portion of this thread.
At the present time, a member of my family is gravely ill and that has caused me a lot of concern, stress and has affected my mental attitude. I have not been able to give the proper attention to this topic. If I were to continue without my full concentration, I would not be able to cover the subject thoroughly. Sometimes one has to put the priorities in order before one can continue doing what one likes to do. I don’t want to post anything that I have not personally tried and tested in chain filing. When I post something, you can be certain that I have done it, tried it, and it works. I would like all the steps that I explain to be clear to understand and easy to follow. I do not want to proceed to the next step until everyone, who is interested, understands each step. I welcome questions and will answer everyone on a personal basis and if there is something that they do not understand to ask me to clarify the point. There are some things you cannot rush (i.e., like fine wine, it takes the proper aging). People should not expect to become proficient or and expert just by reading what I have tried to explain, but if you stick to it and practice the steps that I have explained, I can guarantee that you will be ahead of schedule. 

The reason I am willing to spend a lot of time on racing chains is because there was a lot of interest and request for it. A lot of the “secrets” are hard to come by without outside help. Since I quit making racing chains (except for a few friends), I felt that if I covered the subject thoroughly, the ones who are really interested, could save many years of hit and miss experience the they would be doing on their own. Even after the subject is covered, I will be glad to help anyone on a personal basis with questions or even samples. There are a lot of little things that might not seem important, but they are accumulative and help reduce the cutting times that sometimes are measured in the hundredths of a second. I would like to hear what most of you think and understand where I’m coming from. I don’t want to get involved in any technical or mathematical discussions that I feel have no place on this thread.

The enclosed picture shows what we are striving for. The top picture shows a new chain; the middle one shows a chain where the teeth are cut back; the third one is a finished chain ready to go. Let’s just keep it at that.

Art Martin


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## bwalker

Art, Welcome back. I just want to say that the whole site is at a loss with out your valuable insight.

Gypo, When jock said drive down from the soo I was thinking he ment Midland , MI. Could be wrong. Dunno. Ever Been to the Soo? i got walayed there a few times in school.


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## glens

Art,

Thank you, and welcome back.

I hope you'll be able to forgive my part in your recent discomfort.

I truly wish you and yours well.

Glen


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## Onthehillintn

Art
Could we get a top veiw of the same 3 chains?
Thanks
Onthehillintn


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## dozerdan

Art
I am glad to see that you are back with us once again.I for one have truly missed your posts.
At this time I also have a family member that has become gravely ill,my mother in-law is in the hospital now,hopefully recovering from a stroke.I really couldn't ask for a nicer person and I dearly love the woman.The hospital that she is in is over 100 miles away from me.My only communication is by phone,so I haven't been on here as much as I would like to be.I still have dial up and only one phone line,I try to keep the line open so people can call me with updates on her condition.
Later
Dan


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## JimL

Art by looking at the chain, the bottom one, The drags/rakers don't looks like they have even been touched? Do you take those down on a race chain?


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## NeTree

Art,

First, let me say that I have zero interest in chainsaw racing, or racing chains. I never have, and likely never will. It's just not my "thing". 

However, your witty, "down-home" , common-sense style of writing makes the subject so interesting that I just can't help but read all of your posts I can get, and enjoy them immensely. You have a way of explaining things that makes me actually "see" what you're doing to the chains; very easy to visualise. If you were to ever write a book, I know it would have to be a best-seller. And I'd HAVE to have a copy. 

In the "ham" radio community, we have a nick-name for someone with alot of experience who takes the time to share their knowledge and teach the craft to others- an "elmer". You are one of the finest "elmers" I have seen. 

I look forward to many more of your posts, and thank you tons for the ones you have made to date.

Yours,
Erik
[email protected]


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## Jock

Midland , Ontario, where they have all the murals on the walls and sylo's, beautiful place, met a guy there called Mark Guest, he's involved in logging, a nice guy who showed me around for a day, took me to see some operations and sawmill etc, we even had a couple of wry's ? wrie's ? anyway tastes like strong whiskey, hope to get back there soon , miss the Molson...


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## Art Martin

Onthehillintn,
Here's the top view of the finished racing chain. The other two chains are as they come from the factory. Hope this helps.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

JimL,

I take down the depth gauges to fit the situation. By that I mean, what kind and size of wood, cubic inches of the saw that I am using, the number of points on the sprocket and the type and length of bar.


Glen,

You are forgiven, what did you do?


Eric,

Thank you for the "elmer" handle. I take that as a compliment.


Dan,

Good luck on the ECC get-together.

Art Martin


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## Crofter

Art:

Do you do anything to reduce the slop or lateral deflection in the chain?

Frank


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## Tzed250

*WOW!*

Holy Smokes look at that chain! That is beautiful. You can see the elements that you refered to in earlier posts, the ground rivets, chamfered sides, ground sideplate, etc,. Art, do I see a small hook near the sideplate/topplate intersection? Also, Is that chain 3/8ths or .404., it having an old style depth gage instead of the new ramped style. Thank you again, and I hope the best for you and yours in these troubled times.

John


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## Fish

Good to see you back, sorry that you have family health problems.
These guys here are truly interested in your methods, but may 
get a tad technical. 
How do you dress the tiestraps? Dremel tool? File?


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## husky394

Art,

Thanks for coming back. Our thoughts and prayers are with you during this difficult time. 

Chuck


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## Art Martin

Crofter,

I am not familiar with the single term “slop” as anything concerning chainsaw chain unless you mean something like a sloppy groove in the bar. Please explain.
On the lateral deflection subject, the deflection you are probably referring to is the tooth being pushed toward the outside of the kerf. This is partly caused by the blunter angle of the inside top plate along with the pressure caused during the removal of the chip. If the inside side plate does not cleanly sever the wood fiber, then the top plate has to work harder to remove the chip and actually tears out a portion of the wood. This also becomes problematic when a “beak” is introduced during the filing procedure. The beak leads the all important side plate and actually lifts the fiber up before the sides are severed. By examining the chips, if you notice the edges have “whiskers” on the sides, this indicates that the kerf has not been cleanly severed. With racing chains this is important, but this is not a big deal with the average everyday user. This tearing action is inherent with round chain.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Tzed250,

I try to have a 10° forward slope on the side plate, if that is what you detected.
The chain you were viewing is a Carlton 3/8" pitch, .050 gauge (A1) full compliment. The adjustable depth gauge is an important tool if you do the progressive method. With the constant method, you use a fixed depth gauge and the efficiency constantly decreases as the chain is filed back.
What's the chance of you making me a copy of the video tape that you mentioned on another thread?

Art Martin


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## glens

Art,

I may be wrong as well as impatient, but I'm guessing Crofter was referring to sideways flexibility within the chain assembly itself, and whether you try to achieve more or less of that quality by adjusting rivet tension.&nbsp; If that's not what he had in mind, perhaps you'd address the question for me?

Thanks,
Glen


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## StIhL MaGnUm

Welcome back Art.I'm glad to see you return with all your knowledge on woods and of course your famous racing chains.So far I have printed out all 22 pages of your thread and have let a few of my friends read up on all your tips and and how to and quite a few are switching over to square ground chains now due to finally knowing what angles to set them at etc.I have one question for you I think I asked you this before but I'll try again when you freehand a square chain what file due you prefer to use??I myself seem to like the 3 cornerd file.


Later Rob.


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## Art Martin

The sideways flexibility in the body of the chain is the result of the tolerances built into them probably for lubrication purposes. Some chains do have more sideways movement than others, which is a result of poor quality control. A rivet spinner can take up some of the slack and is a good idea on racing chains since the chain is used sparingly. On everyday wood cutting, the extra space is a plus for lubrication of the rivet bearing flanges and drive link holes. On a Carlton 3/8” pitch .050” gauge chain, the thickness of the rivet flange bearing is .061”. The drive link is .058”, there is a .003” clearance or play when the tie straps are riveted on. The tang on that chain is .050”.

The thickness of the tie straps are .053” each. When the chain is assembled and the rivet hubs are spun, the outside total thickness should be .167”. However, this is not the always case. Often this measurement goes over that amount. If you are making a racing chain, ideally you should place the chain in a rivet spinner and close the gap by spinning both sides. Never over tighten the rivets because they could split. This procedure should be done, of course, before the rivet hubs are ground off.

All this is tedious work, but it is part of the process of making a good racing chain.

Art Martin


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## Crofter

*Thanks Art*

You are never going to be able to quit Art; the more you feed us the hungrier we get!

Frank


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## Art Martin

Another stage to be mentioned in making a racing chain is the thinning of the inside to the main body of the tooth. This step is only for those whose are really serious. First the chain has to be dismantled. Then a surface grinder is used to take .020” of metal off the inside face of the area where the rivet holes are. I built a surface grinder using a small electric motor that I mounted on a hinge that I designed. I made a threaded control assembly that allowed me to lower or raise the grinding wheel by turning a knob. The hardest part was making a tool to hold the tooth solidly and level while sliding the tooth back and forth under the adjustable grinding wheel. Finally, I designed the holding device, which held two teeth at the same time. I marked the lowering knob to use it as a gauge so all teeth ended up with the same thickness. The chain then has to be re-assembled. Without dechroming, the chain will now cut a .040” narrower kerf. I no longer do this procedure but wanted to mention it for those who want to do it.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

This is a picture of the tooth holder with clamps.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

This is another angle of the tooth holder.

Art Martin


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## timberwolf

*Learn to walk befor you try to run*

Just do a search ether on this site or on the whole net, here is an example of one of a thousand links.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/brewer57.html 

You can never master ther finer details if you don't first spend time understanding the basics!

Dont' even bother looking at this thread if your not into preformance chains or at least until you get an understanding of the basics. Trying to understand this stuff will just mess with your head and get you all bothered and worked up, as is evident in your posts.

Timberwolf


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## jokers

Welcome back Art. Hope things are going better at home as well. I hope the rest of us can remember what an icon of performance chain building Art is and be greatful enough to him for sharing in such detail that we don`t have to be trying to upstage him or disprove what he is saying. I`m sure that Art expects us to take the info he has given us and then try it out. Then if anyone of us can win as consistently as Art has we should remember who gave us a hand up and not go running around as if we are self made experts. The way that Art is sharing with us is an anomoly in the realm of world class competitors and I for one, appreciate it to no end. Over 16,000 views and counting on this thread, that`s got to be some kind of internet record. Russ


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## Art Martin

beginner,

Thanks for your concern and nice words regarding the serious health problem our family has been facing during the past six months.

As to your inexperience in the art of chain filing, everybody has to start someplace. The post submitted by timberwolf, with a link to basic chain filing instructions, certainly covers the subject really well. Follow those instructions until you become more proficient in the basics. Later, if you want to go into more advanced chain filing or even racing chains, don’t hesitate to ask for advice.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

I finally took some pictures of the surface ground inside wall of two teeth along side two regular teeth for comparison. Two of the teeth were reduced by .020". I hope it shows up clearly. I have some other pictures I might send later.

Art Martin


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## Tzed250

*Video*

Art, sorry it took so long to get back to you. Let me see if I can get a copy made of the cutting video, and if I can then i'll ask for your address to send it to you. Have a good one,

John


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## dbabcock

Enlarged, brightened, decontrasted and sharpened a little to try and bring out the detail a little better.


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## Tzed250

Looks like racin' parts to me


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## Harley

Art, 

Thanks for the pictures.

Did you ever modify a bar to make it thinner? Is there one brand/type of bar that you have found that is thinner to start with.
Thanks


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## Art Martin

Before I start the subject of this post, I want to respond to the few previous ones.

Doug,
Thanks for enhancing and bringing out the details better on the thinned teeth pictures that I posted.

Tzed,

If you would send me your email address, I will send you my mailing address.

Harley,

I have never thinned any bars since the chains are always wider than the bar. I have noticed many different thicknesses of the bars that I have. The Cannon bar that I modified for my Poulan 655 is the thinnest one that I have.

On a racing saw, there are several other things to consider. Of course, the chain is the main component. The other is the bar. Using a “belly” bar is definitely an advantage in bar lengths over 20”. A belly bar allows the user to run a loser chain tension which allows the most h.p. to be used in the actual removal of the wood. The longer the bar, the more benefit is derived for this application. The drawback is, of course, the cost of having a custom made bar for several different lengths required for a wide range of log sizes that are used throughout the many different areas. A custom made bar costs around $400 if the ends are hard-faced and a roller tip is installed. Especially here in California and in the northwest, the log sizes vary so much since there is no controlling authority in power. For instance, you might arrive at a show and be facing a log of 32” in diameter. Then at the next show, the log might be 24” in diameter. That means you better be prepared with an assortment of chains and bars to fit all these situations. Then every once in a while, they will put in a boring cut, so you need a narrower bar with a smaller roller tip to be in contention. As I’ve said before, you need the combination of a good saw and a good chain to win, but you also need the correct bar as well.

I made a “1/2 belly bar” out of a 36” Cannon bar into one that is 26”. This bar is for my modified 655 Poulan B.P. I just finished the cylinder work (according to Ken’s specifications) on this saw which is in the 6 cubic inch category.

Since the bar was only 4 ¼” wide, I only modified the bottom edge of the bar. I then put in the groove with my “Barshop” tool. I hard-faced the ends of the bar and installed a Remington roller. In my opinion, this bar will actually allow a chain to be activated into the cutting mode better. This is because it has more slack afforded while the chain remains in the groove at the bottom, probably even better, to a slight degree, than the full belly bar.

To illustrate this, I will submit two pictures. The first one shows the saw upright with the proper tension set. Then without any change in the tension, the saw is upside down. You can clearly see that the chain is hanging down out of the groove and would be unacceptable to be run in that way on a standard bar.

I always welcome questions and opinions for discussion that would help others to understand the subject more fully.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Here is the upside down view with the same chain tension.

Art Martin


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Curious about two things: What's a "barshop" tool, and where do you get the roller tips?


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## Harley

Art;

I'd like to know if you sharpen your chains any different if you know that they are going to be cutting bark. Also, do you generally file the same angles no matter what species of wood is to be cut?

Thanks.


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## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

The Barshop machine is designed to make and repair chainsaw bars. The Barshop machine regrooves, squares the rails and closes the groove to standard size. You can actually make a chainsaw bar out of old, obsolete chainsaw bars. Both ends of the bar can be duplicated with this machine.

This machine is sold by Specialty Motors Mfg., Longview, Washington 1-800-426-8644. 

As far as where to get the roller tips, you just have to ask around and you really can find some.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

Harley,

Competition logs are always debarked, if that is what you are referring to. Also, cants are bark free. I usually have the angle of the outside top plate at 32°.

When I worked in the woods, the bark on some of the large Redwood trees was sometimes up to one foot thick, stringy and fibrous. During the summer months, when the tree was felled, the bark would “slip” because of the sap between the bark and the of the cambium layer. This created problems of binding the saw and usually had to be chopped out with an axe.

Art Martin


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## JimL

Id like to see some pictures of this Barshop tool, what all does/can it do?


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## Art Martin

JimL,

The Barshop is a multipurpose machine. The main function is to repair and square the rails of chainsaw bars. The Barshop also allows the user to make new bars from old ones. It can regroove bars to .063”, .058” and .050” gauges. It has a hammering mechanism that allows the closing of worn out grooves to the previously mentioned gauges. It has a large split-sanding drum that is good for polishing and removing burrs. It can be used as a cut off wheel for shortening bars and making new bar slots. It has a large grinding wheel that is used for truing the rails and shaping the heels to fit the appropriate sprockets. The grooving wheels are also used to install roller tips.

The Barshop easily tilts to two different positions that allow the user access to the many different functions.

Art Martin


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## Art Martin

This is the Barshop with the table tilted in the other position.

Art Martin


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## Crofter

*Depth Guage Side Clearance*

I have been playing around at lightening and narrowing some 3/8 chisel chain according to some of the pointers you have set out. I have come up with a situation that I haven't met in just filing regular chain. Now that I have narrowed the cutters and taken them back to the rear rivet, the sides of the depth guides are just about flush with the outside of the cutter. On green maple it drops down through the cut nicely with no binding, but I wonder what dimesion I should be looking for here. This kind of information is something that is very hard to come by from any other source! Thanks for your time Art. 

Frank


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## Art Martin

Crofter,

This is a good question and it’s a good time to address it now. I will try to explain the depth gauge side clearances at the several different points as the chain is filed back. These measurements are on a 3/8” Carlton chain tooth.

A new tooth, as it comes from the factory, has the front outside plate extending .028” further than the depth gauge. So there is a clearance of .028”

When you measure the very rear point of the outside plate and keep the depth gauge in its original state, the clearance is then .004”.

When you file the tooth back to over the rear rivet and reduce the depth gauge to its proper setting, the clearance is .015”. This clearance is more than enough.

Now if you dechrome the chain and file the tooth back over the rear and lower the depth gauge to its proper setting, the front of the side plate has about a .006” clearance.

You must remember that the depth gauge has a lean of .040” from the main body of the tooth, so as you lower the depth gauge down, you reduce the amount of the lean.

In my opinion, it is a mistake to file the outside of the depth gauge which will result in a rougher kerf wall. Of course, I’ve tried it and was not happy with the results. Also it is hard to measure the amount you would take off so every tooth would probably end up being different.

Art Martin


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## Crofter

*Thanks Art*

I can imagine the countless hours you have devoted to acquiring this kind of information; it certainly is not armchair engineering!

Frank


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## Harley

Art, 

When you can find some time. I would appreciate hearing about how you hone the cutters. 

I try to remove the burs from filing with a small piece of wood when I file my chains. I find that I end up with a much smoother chain to begin with. It also seems to proform for a slighly longer period of time.

Thanks.


----------



## Art Martin

Harley,

I'll get to the honing subject soon. Right now I'm trying to get some clear close-up pictures of some of the different chain patterns that I had come up in the past. I wish Doug was here to show me how to do it. Some work real good and others were probably a waste of time. The best one so far is the full house 1/2" pitch chisel chain. There is one that is a scratcher type chain that cuts real smooth but needs a big saw to pull it since all the teeth remain in the wood as it travels through the cut. 


Art Martin


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## Weatherby

Well I thought id let Art have a good laugh at a poor excuse of a chain. I did all of this free handed with a dremel tool, just playing around this weekend. I think this is the original chain that came on my 372xp from the shop so its a LV chain, and I had to grind the bumper links down as much as I could. I still need to do a little work opening up the gullets, because I wasnt sure how deep to make them or even how much of the tooth to file off. This wasnt an attemp to make a racing chain, but just seeing what kind of work it envovled. It would help if I had a good work bench, and a way to hold the chain steady. Now if I only I would have timed a cut with it before i started messing around with it, to see how much I screwed it up. Too bad I have no idea how to square file. Never to late to start learning.

Rob


----------



## Art Martin

There are many variations for modifying saw chain by ambitious enthusiasts who hope to come across some combination that would prove somewhat better than anyone else’s. Although this is probably good for the sport, most of the people are repeating similar versions that have already been tried and found to be a waste of time. I have some of these chains in my collection. Some are good and others only remind me of the hours I wasted on a brainstorm that I was sure would work. A lot of talk on other posts has been about the files used on chisel chain. I have used many different styles of files such as the triangular, double bevel, etc. I prefer the triangular file for conventional filing of a chisel tooth to get the angles that I try to attain. For me, it is easy to get the correct angles that I look for and this is because of experience. The angles can be changed by a simple twist of the wrist and raising or lowering the handle. The forward stroke should be without any rocking or side motion applied. The inside side plate and the inside top plate should be filed with one continuous stroke from the front toward the back. The teeth must be held stationary without any movement whatsoever. If the tooth is allowed to move, top performance cannot be achieved. Those who sharpen the chains in the woods can get by with it but not on racing chains. When I used to compete, and saw a contestant sharpen his chain while it was on the saw sitting on the tailgate of the pickup, I knew he wasn’t prepared and I discounted him as a serious contender.

For racing chains, I only use Oberg 150 files, which are used by most of the top contestants throughout the country. Recently, Oberg 150 files, made in Portugal, are being sold by Madsen’s or Bailey’s. These files seem to lack quality control because the edges are irregular and not uniform. It is hard to attain a clean, crisp inside top corner with them. The original Oberg 150 files, which were made in Sweden, were much more superior to the current ones on the market. Another file that some racing enthusiasts use is the “goofy” file and a good result can be obtained with them.

I am submitting a picture of my fastest ever chain for small sized logs. It is a custom-made half-inch pitch full house chain.

Art Martin


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## JimL

Blew er up a little


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## husky 2100

art i cut 12 in gum and have been running 3/8 chain. how would the 1/2 work on a 5 or 6 ci. stock appearing saw compared to the 3/8. do you think it would be lacking for power. thanks mike


----------



## Art Martin

JimL,

Thanks for blowing it up. I tried but it wouldn't accept it.

husky2100,

In my opinion any saw under 7 c.i. would not perform well with the 1/2" chain. A .404" works real good on 6 c.i. and over if you don't make it too hungry and let your saw get out of the power band and if you use a 7 point sprocket. On my 090, I use a 6 point sprocket with the 1/2" chain. I tried the 7 point sprocket many times and lost time. The 3/8" chain has a good track record for all saws and does especially well on saws 6 c.i. and under.

Art Martin


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

Art,
What do you think makes the 1/2" pitch work so well? 
Thinking out loud here, the larger pitch means fewer teeth in a given length, and the parts are bigger. This increased spacing could be what makes the full house work well on this chain. The taller teeth make a bigger chip channel too.
I was also wondering about other cutter patterns, like a complement of cutters with more cutters than "full complement", but less than "full house".
It also looks like you ground the rear of the cutter off, instead of the front. How or why did you end up doing that?
One last comment on the chain, it doesn't look like you did much grinding on the rivets, tie straps, or drive links. How un-Art like.

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and I hope you keep it comming!
Mike


----------



## Art Martin

Mike Maas,

The high profile of the 1/2" pitch allows for lower depth gauge settings that can can be used, resulting in larger chips. The space allowed for chip clearance and removal is inherent with this size of chain. The 3/8" pitch chain would be "choked" up by chips of this size if the depth gauges were lowered to .060" as is common on the 1/2" chain. The 3/8 chain is very efficient at .025" depth gauge settings. The top contestants set their depth gauges at .018" to .022" for the 3/8" chain but rely on sprockets that are 9 and 10 toothed. The chips they produce are paper thin but the chain is traveling at such high speeds that the chips are easily carried out resulting in "rooster tails" of twenty-five or more long.
The reason I cut the tooth from the rear to the front on my full house chain, instead of back to over the rear rivet, was because the file would have cut off the depth gauge of the trailing tooth, with the angles I use. Also the trailing depth would have interfered with the chip flow. I put a lot of time in the design before starting on this project which took several weeks to complete and I had to use many costly and hard to get teeth. I also de-chromed all the teeth before dismantling the chain so the width of the kerf would be the same as if the tooth was over the rear rivet. I had enough clearance without grinding the rivets off and I was not worried about reducing the weight on such a short chain and the weight was not a factor since I had already doubled the number of teeth.

Art Martin


----------



## Crofter

Art; I have a question regarding the size, shape and relative pointiness of the tips of the depth guides. Is the shape and area of their tips a factor that should be considered in setting up a chain for optimum performance.

Thanks,

Frank


----------



## Art Martin

Crofter,

On racing chains I reduce the width of the depth gauge to about half the original size by grinding off the front portion. Then I set the height of the depth gauge to the proper depth with a gauge. What you have then is a flat surface. Then with a flat file round off the front upper corner. You need a certain amount of flat surface, otherwise it is easy to bear down on saw the too much while making the cut. This would cause the depth gauge to actually dig into the wood too much and cancel out the purpose of the depth gauge. 

Art Martin


----------



## Dennis

Art, while I print pretty much every post you make out...and put them in my filing book, I still suck at square filing...lol...I am looking forward to seeing you in action, in person...when I bring you your coil ...and my chain...


----------



## John Lambert

I'll tell you what I would like to see. Art has an 090 that is unpiped and unheaded. Even though it is not a full race saw, it is still one of the fastest, if not _the_ fastest saws out there on the west coast. I believe that what makes this saw so fast is not the motor, per se, but the belly bar and 1/2" chain that Art always runs with it. Now I'm not saying that the motor is a slouch, mind you, but the fact that there are other saws out there that have to be making more horsepower because of their pipes and heads that can't get close to this thing, says that there has to be a tremendous benefit to Art's bar and chain. I propose that after timed cuts are made with this saw and it blows all of the others out of the water, Art lets the same bar and chain be tried on other hot saws owned by the Roopley brothers and Dozer Dunn.


----------



## cliff-1972

John,I was told by "someone" that this question "Art lets the same bar and chain be tried on other hot saws" has been asked,but was declined.No effense,Art
 I do agree it very fast,an I wish my 090 was like it,but Art said long ago it is 50% saw and 50% bar and chain.So,if someone had,if possible,as good as a saw and bar/chain it could be beat,right Again,I think Art is and always will be one of the best sawyers in the world.


----------



## Art Martin

All I can say is if someone is serious about beating my saw and chain: B.Y.O B.

Art Martin


----------



## Art Martin

Another experiment I made, was along the lines of an unhooded tooth design also referred to as a scratcher chain. I cut the top plate completely off and filed an angle on the inside side plate which was similar to the angle of my racing chains. The top of the side plate was filed to a 45° angle following the original slope of the tooth, leaving a sharp pointed leading edge, similar to ½ of an M tooth crosscut saw. This leading edge then severs the wood fiber but doesn’t remove the wood. To remove the wood, I took another tooth, from which I removed all of the tooth portion and just left the depth gauge. Then I turned the “tooth” backwards and installed it into the space directly behind the side cutter. Since this “tooth” was reversed, the outward lean then became an inward lean so the top of the depth gauge was now in the center of the chain. Then I formed this depth gauge into a true raker (.025” shorter than the cutters), which would pull out the wood severed by the leading right and left cutters. It actually worked and the sidewall of the kerf was especially smooth. It was only tested with a 6 cube saw and since all the teeth are cutting, while they rode along the cut, no downward pressure could be applied. With an 090 or other big cubed saw, it could really have good possibilities.

Art Martin


----------



## Art Martin

This is the top angle of the scratcher chain.

Art Martin


----------



## cliff-1972

B.Y.O B.,I like that Art.


----------



## Art Martin

Another sequence of tooth pattern that I have experimented with that is fast cutting and may be more user friendly for the 6 cube saws than the full house is similar to a semi-skip chain. This pattern allows for less teeth than a full house, but has more teeth than a full compliment. It also has a space for elimination of chips. The chain has a right and left cutter following each other without a space. Then one space between the next set of teeth together and so on.


On another news worthy item….the Rupley brothers spent a day with me last week taking a refresher course on chisel tooth filing. They are both serious and passed with flying colors. They are now ready to blow away all comers in the California Clearwater get-together at Mike’s estate on the weekend of the 15th of March.

Art Martin


----------



## Dennis

Art, I am looking forward to some filing lessons this weekend...I will be bringing my chain..(and an ignition) with me...I am pretty sure the Rooopleys will be out of Nevrdull by then, so I should have a good chance!!


----------



## Art Martin

Dennis,

With the wweather forecast for rain, it looks like there will be a lot of time for my race chain seminar to take place, with lots of hands-on practice. Hopefully, there will be some breaks in the weather for the sawing events.

Art


----------



## dbabcock

Yeah, I just checked weather.com. I wonder how many times a year it rains 4 days in a row there. No matter; rain and beverages are both liquid. Chain sharpening? What's that?


----------



## rupedoggy

It hasn't rained any amount since before Christmas. Now you guys are on the way and bringing the weather with you! OOOOOHHH!!!! Mike


----------



## Gypo Logger

Hi Mike and Art, Rain is ok, its been very cold lately here, so it will be very comfortable there,even if it rains. Doug says he wants to mud wrestle with Robert anyway, being the homosexual that he is.
John


----------



## Art Martin

Doug,

The weather here today and the last week has been sunny and in the 70's. What I want to know is do I have to furnish the tether for John or are you going to bring the one you used for him when he visited you. I don't know if it's a good idea just to let him run around loose. Please advise.

Art


----------



## Art Martin

NEWS ALERT!!!!!

Attention chainsaw enthusiasts in California, the Preditor is on it's maiden voyage to the Sacramento area. Rotax Robert, with George, called me at 9:45 P.S.T. and asked me to post their progress on this site. They were in Yreka and should arrive in Sacramento tomorrow. Gypo is flying in as well as Doug, Marky Marks and Dennis. I hope the Rupley brothers are ready for a rip roaring weekend.

Art Martin


----------



## rupedoggy

We are ready. Jon has Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday off. We have six logs from 15" up to 30". Lots of beverages and plans for a good bar-b-que. Now if the weather will only cooperate. Mike


----------



## Art Martin

Rotax, Gypo, Doug, Dennis, Ken and George arrived at Ruppedoggy's and only several cuts were made before darkness set in. Then Ken used the headlights of his Honda for a few more cuts. That's dedication!!! Heavy rains are predicted for tomorrow but it won't matter. The show will go on. They are all great guys.

Art Martin


----------



## rupedoggy

The weather held good yesterday and several dozens of cuts were made with various and sundry saws. People came from miles around to enjoy the spectacle. It was like ants drawn to a picnic. The predator was the crowd favorite. Art Martin had the fastest saws, chains, and wit. What a great time! Mike


----------



## dbabcock

Here's Art with one of the true highlights of the weekend: his wonderful wife, Marita.


----------



## Art Martin

Doug,

Why wouldn't she be?

Art


----------



## dbabcock

Ha ha ha.


----------



## treeclimber165

Art,
Is that Dennis dancing with your wife or is he just holding on to keep from falling over?


----------



## Art Martin

On Monday, the day Rotax, George and Gypo were getting things together to begin their trip to Ken’s place and then home, a Sacramento County tree trimming crew happened by. They were admiring the Preditor and talking with Rotax. Gypo, with his charming personality began using his persuasive ability on the crew. He talked them into trimming a huge oak tree that was on my property. (Oak trees are a protected species in our area and there are strict rules for their preservation. Fines can reach $10,000 for trimming without a permit.) In return for this huge chore, he brought them into my house to view a video of the Preditor making a cut. He then took them into my trophy room and into the workshop. He told them in exchange for the tree trimming, he would get them an autograph from me. While Gypo was entertaining the crew, they left their County equipment, unattended, for at least two hours. No wonder Gypo is such a successful businessman. No wonder Cinnamon Girl fell for his charms. 

Art


----------



## Dennis

Here is a shot of the hardworking crew out in front of Art's place.


----------



## Dennis

and here is the oak tree in question. He is using an 020 up in the bucket. He also made mention of having an 090 back at the shop which perked both Art and Gypo's ears up...


----------



## Art Martin

During last weekend’s California Clearwater get-together, I was able to demonstrate the honing procedure to those who were here. If it is done properly, a gain of at least 2 seconds is easily attained on a 24” log when no other thing has been done to the chain. On the other hand, if a person hones a chain improperly, the chain will go down in the cut about 4 inches, just enough to bury the bar, and then stop. No matter how hard you push down, it won’t cut. This is why it is important to make a tool that I have displayed in the picture I posted previously. If you don’t hone it properly, it is best to just leave it alone. I will post the same picture again, but the pressure point of the clamping device is at a different point when honing than it is when you are using the tool for filing. The adjustable clamp should apply pressure on the rear rivet of the tooth that you are honing.

Art Martin


----------



## Art Martin

Now that all of you have made your stoning device out of a discarded bar and attached an adjustable clamp, we can continue. A 2” X 8” X 1” sharpening stone that has one side real fine grit and the side is coarser is a good stone to use. I also have used a razor stone but it takes longer to hone because it is glassy smooth. Use the fine grit side. Once the chain is filed and the depth gauges are set, the honing is the last step. The pressure clamp is adjusted to put slight pressure on the rear rivet. Then the heel of the stone is held and rides against the bar with the middle section riding on the outside of the outside cutter. Of course, the heel of the stone is to the rear of the tooth to maintain the proper angle of the cutter. If the tooth is stoned without pressure to the tooth, the tooth will lean back away from the stone and front edge of the tooth will lose its leading edge and stop cutting. Three to six strokes with the stone is enough. I use WD-40 to keep the stone clean when it begins to build up with metal.

During the California Clearwater weekend, I went through the different steps of making a racing chain in my shop with the guys. Starting with a piece of new chain, we shortened the tooth to over the rear rivet; de-chromed the tooth; doggy boned; sloped the side straps; hollowed out the inside of the tooth; reduced the size of the depth gauge; filed the tooth to the proper angles and stoned the tooth. I showed them another depth gauge that I made to accurately measure the depth gauge. Once the depth of one depth gauge is established, then the other gauge is set to that height and used to file the tops of the other depth gauges. This gauge is much easier and more accurate than trying to use a straight edge and feeler gauges.

Art Martin


----------



## 066 stihl

Hi Art

Have you ever tried moly lubricant on your chains and bars?

THANKS Ricky


----------



## Art Martin

Hi Ricky,

I always used a combination of light weight oil, kerosene, and S.T.P. I used the kerosene because of its pitch cutting properties. It seemed to prevent the build up of the chips in the groove.

Art


----------



## 066 stihl

Hi Art

In the post on page 14 at the bottom of the page. You are talking about the forward cutting corner will stick out six degrees more than the heel of the top plate. On a new tooth how many thous. would need to be removed ?

THANKS 
Ricky


----------



## Art Martin

Ricky,
I made a more detailed explanation of the 6 degrees "lead" on page 15 dated 12-19-02. The 6 degrees mentioned on page 14 that you referred to, didn't cover how I came up with the amount of "lead" that I use on my racing chains. 
The word "set" that I used was not the proper term. The word "lead" is more correct.

The Mike Maas drawing on page 14 dated 12-18-02 is a very good depiction of "set", which is the outward lean of a tooth. I later corrected the term "lead" in my post on page 14 dated 12-18-02.

As far as the amount removed in thousandths that you asked about, why don't you measure the sample teeth that I sent you?

I welcome any questions or explanations on the posts that I submitted in this thread since they might seem complicated especially to someone starting out.

Art


----------



## dbabcock

This hasn't been up for a while. The number one, most viewed thread on all of AS.


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## dbabcock

Come on, Dennis. You're gonna have to do better than that to get "Cahoonsite.com" up to 23,000 views. As I told you earlier, negative campaigning won't work here. You're waisting your time trying to convince people that Art is no good just as sure as they'd be waisting their time trying to convince you that he is. After I talked to you the other day, I thought you had more common sense than that. Did I misjudge you?


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

dBabcock,
You misunderstood what I was implying. I wasn't giving Art a hard time, I was giving you and the 'nerds' a bad time! 
Keep reading, grinding, filing, and posting,
Dennis


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## Gypo Logger

Hey Doug, you spelled waisting wrong, it's wasting. with a grade 9 education, even I noticed that.
John


----------



## jokers

Gypo, the misspelling could be an association to the chronic wasting disease related to drinking just enough Remy.  

Russ


----------



## dbabcock

Not Remy yet today, but champagne has been flowing since noon. John and Jokers are both correct.


----------



## sawracr

Dennis, I have found just like in NASCAR multi-car teams are advantagious. When the owner of the team sacrifices his ride to take care of the rest of the team, one day, will either have to stop racing, or loose the anchor and concentrate on his game again. Tell me, did I not notice Tommys' game a bit less perfect at Oroville, with the team he was fielding? This is not a slam of Tom Fales, but rather an observation. So don"t hound the nerds that run a smaller team,.......... unless you don't like the competition taking a bite out what you think is yours only. Hell,"Why wouldn't I stir Up the site, you've been doing a good job! 
Respectfully Yours Jon
P.S. I've got one bad Mark Eckhardt saw coming soon," to a race near you"!


----------



## Jack Russell

*Mr. Martin*

Mr. Martin

I am sorry to learn that you are not doing good at this time. That you are having a health problem, I feel sure you and I have the same Doctor. All thing are posable trough Him
.
May His Hand Of Healing Be on you And Your Health Restored
Just think with him you do not have to have insurance policys or medicare. His office is open twenty four hours a day and he makes house calls. His phone lines never ring busy they are open to every one

If it be His WILL may your health be returned NOT our will but HIS WILL BE DONE---Amen

May GOD be with all the members for we are all his children


----------



## WoodTick007

I just wanted to revist this post and read some of the great information that was shared here.

Art,

If your still reading this forum, I hope that you and yours are having a happy holiday season. I would also like to wish for you a great 2004.

Thanks for all the great information that you shared with this site.

Regards,

007


----------



## Lewis Brander

*To Art Martin.*

Art, have not been on ArboristSite for very long. Have read various post form you and others. I don't know you, but would sure like to meet you sometime. Have a lot of respect for you. Hope you will be better soon, just know that I and everyone else here, are pulling and praying for you to get better. Take care. Lewis.


----------



## rahtreelimbs

It is a shame that this great thread came to such an abrupt halt!


----------



## Lumberjack

Just bumping the thread back up. 


One of the most awsome threads on all of AS.


Thanks Art


Carl


----------



## MasterBlaster

Ditto that!


----------



## stihltech

*Mr Martin*

As I am new to the hotsaw, At some point I will need to create my own racing chain. Much good info so far, hope to see more. We all miss ya here.


----------



## Art Martin

Since this thread has been bumped up, I thought it would be a good idea to put to rest something that apparently bothers a few people who have been trying to discredit me. First they attack me on my chains, then my crosscut saws, then my friends and finally my age. How low can you get?
I have been getting disgusting, filthy and offensive emails from Tom Fales, Jr., sometimes on a daily basis. Some of it stems from my mentioning that I once filed crosscut saws for Mark Etcheberry. He calls me a liar and doesn’t think that ever happened. Well, I filed saws for a lot of people and didn’t necessarily care what their status was as to being famous or not, I treated everyone the same. I respect people who go on to be outstanding in their field but still remain humble. I believe people who have attained some notoriety should not become narcissistic and push their emotions and sentiments onto others who just don’t care and aren’t interested. 
I will post the letters from Mark Etcheberry for everyone to see and they can judge for themselves the credibility of these few people who have managed to damage this fine Arboristsite.
Later I want to again re-open the subject of full house chains since there has been doubt put on it’s ability to cut as fast as I claim. This probably will again affect the credibility of some so-called “experts” on the site. So be it. I stand behind all the articles I have submitted in the series on race chains. Why wouldn’t I, since I have over 45 years of experience.

Art Martin


----------



## NeTree

Well Art, I'm not into racing (although I have a neat racing saw project in the "skunk-works"... more on that later), but I always enjoyed your posts and pics.

Welcome back, we kept yer spot warm fer ya... cuz you know, at YOUR age...


----------



## rmihalek

Hi Art. I really enjoyed all the information you have contributed on race chain craftsmanship. I have a thousand questions about the old days of logging, but those'll have to wait. 

Regarding race chains, it appears in the picture that originally appeared on page 26 (tool 08.jpg) that the inside edge of the top plates have been ground down. I don't recall reading in the articles that you did this. In fact I seem remember you saying that other than widening the chip channel and refining the angle of the cutters leading edge, you didn't do anything else to the cutter. But it looks like in the picture that the cutters have been ground down. It would seem to make sense that since you're grinding down the rivets that you could also take some width off the kerf by reducing the width of the top plate. Then again, maybe it's just an optical illusion due to glare from the flash or something. just wondering...


----------



## Jack Russell

*Art Martin sites number one Member*

Art
As always I enjoy reading your post. I can see that there are many other members that enjoy hearing from you.

You and I have one thing in common that is age. Forty five years in the saw an chain field tells me that you may have reach the interstate speed limited or close to it. Now I have caught up with the super interstate speed limited. I am still kicking as the saying goes but not rasing any dust

When some one would hurt my fellings by making different remarks as you have had done to you. My Dad would tell me to just remember the SOURCE they came from, Some people just do not know any better. That I woul have to over look them. This one word has hope me over look many different things in life.

I am guessing that you and I are from the old school. we were taught that a person has the right to think what they want to But does not give them the right to say it or make remarks that hurts or put down what other people do

Doug.


----------



## y'trA nitraM

*the real Art Martin*

man this is some good stuff from this man , we need him back.


----------



## rmihalek

*yes*

Ynam erom seirots deen ot eb dloT.


----------



## dbabcock

Don't worry. I have some videos that Art sent me that I'll be posting soon.

BWD


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Oh Boy...... more spin from the old Finn!


----------



## dbabcock

And with an IQ over 50 to boot.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Hey dbadcock,
You said that you're posting some videos for Art. It's sad that he's not capable of doing for himself. 

dbadcock said,"And with an IQ over 50 to boot!"

Here's some qualifing facts about Intelligence Quotients.
Levels of Mental Deficiency:
IQ of 0-25 Idiot: Incapable of connected speech, or avoiding the common dangers of life, cannot feed self.
IQ of 26-50 Imbecile: Commonly incapable of earning a living, cannot dress self. 
IQ of 51-80 Moron: Requires supervision in work, recreation, and the general conduct of life, can almost manage unskilled work.

It looks to me like that with the IQ over 50, he probably falls in the Moron category if he is incapable of posting video himself. Doing a Moron's busy work? Where does that place you on the Intelligence Scale, dbadcock?


----------



## rbtree

I believe, Mr Cahoon, that the video footage is analog, and Art does not have the equipment to digitize it....

Now who has the IQ deficiency??


----------



## Gypo Logger

Dennis, Doug is smarter than both of us, in fact, I'm about as bright as a Rhesus monkey, so that makes you dumber than a sack of hammers. LOL
John


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Rbtree, I have been incapable of earning a living and unable to put my shoe on for months now, so I know where I'm at! But I sure don't work for Art Martin. 
Gypo, That's still better than a wedge! LOL


----------



## woodbeard

Dennis, Doug only said that because it's fairly obvious you dress yourself.
Now, based on the pictures we've seen of Gypo, Hmm....
I myself am still working on avoiding the common dangers of life.


----------



## Crofter

I imagine the fun of spending hours putting together a racing chain has grown old long ago for Art. I'd be willing to wager though that if he chose to put one together for a known set of conditions, no one anywhere could make one that would beat it by anything more than 100ths of a second if it could beat it at all!. I dare say that it is only people with fragile self esteem and poor judgement feel the need to attack someone else. One of the posters here has the signature to the affect of "when your really good other people will do your bragging for you". It really would be much more validating than self praise. Obviously other people have a different way of looking at things. 

Frank


----------



## rbtree

Yo DC,

I've always been able to put my shoe...


in my mouth..except when I was shoeless cause I was sporting a cast.

Just trying to mess up the goofy mood in this thread with something "Sirius"


Rb outerspace Wan


----------



## Stumper

Woodbeard, Gypo IS one of the common dangers of life. -Well not that common-he is a Canadian danger.


----------



## DaveCA

Insert this anywhere you like in this thread.
It seems a shame to drag this thread through all the pissin' contests.
. 
There is such a valuable lot of history and technical knowledge gained from decades of experience that Mr Martin gave and dbabcock helped present to us. Of course arboristsite allowed it on their dime too.
From all indications I can see, Art Martin presented this for free. I think of the great number of those who've read some of what Art has told here, most would want more knowledge from him. 

Mr Martin, I wish you all the best.


----------



## Jack Russell

I think Art is a man that stands tall among the member on this site, He has every reason to. He is one of the Best Second to none. His work stands for it self.
Art does not toot his horne about his work or ask for credit for it.He knows he dang Good and so do other. Some may not want to amid it. 

Members have expressed Care for Art in different ways
Humor is one way and the other is with feelings. Now both ways are ment with the Best Intention because each one CARES

Croften is one who express him self with feelings. He reached way down in his Heart when he expressed how he felt Hi feeling are Deep.

The members with Humor are saying the same words as Croften and the same deep feeling as he expressed.

I have said, it before and still feel the same way. the members on this site are some of the best in their field of work and standing to geather as FRIENDS

Douglas 
(Senior In Age)


----------



## MasterBlaster

I second that emotion, Douglas!


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Crofter, your way out of touch. There are many people that could build a chain faster than Art, and many more that can build one as fast. Don't wager to much because you'll lose your a$$. Believe it or not but Art's chain has never won a major contest that I've seen or heard of. Sorry for the facts, but that's how I have seen it. Dennis


----------



## lucky

I understand, you've never met Art. How would you know _all_ the facts pertainent to Art? Somewhere in an older thread somebody had posted times from different meets. I recall the Rupleys placing rather highly several times. Even ahead of you. Whose chain were you running? John


----------



## tony marks

u know dc i actually think u know of what u speak. although id love to have an chain made for work by art..
the thing is bud [i mean no offence either] u come off like mike tyson did when he tried to bite the real deal holifilds ear off. 
u got,, im thinking,, a lot u can contribute ..
but the art thing just needs to be dropped . its gettin in the way of our being able to benefit from your knowledge. think about it bud. jmo


----------



## Crofter

I just dont think there has been any recent big breakthroughs in chain filing that are going to make anything more than a very small percentage. The operators input so overwhelms this difference its silly to argue about. Having the right combination for the wood at hand is a pretty complicated formula and its not all chain. If someone had the monopoly on it we'd all soon know!

Frank


----------



## Jack Russell

I am not trying to be indifferent with any member are arguing with any one. As I read members replys in this thread To me I read it as member expressing their feeling or opinion as they see it or feel and that only 

Some members are reading these feelings or opinion wrong. Some are taking these replys as personal.

All members are free to express what they think or feel . Lets let it be that way with out calling their hand.

What is has already been it over Tomorrow dawns a new day.

All members were Friends yesterday Lets all be be the same tomorrow Friends

There is nothing worng to disagree at times but not at the expense of Friendship

All of you are my friend and I am Proud to call you a friend

GOD bless all of my friends

Douglas
( Senior In Age)


----------



## MasterBlaster

Too much drama.


----------



## shoot501

Why is it that some people feel that they must try and discredit others. This is truely sad, seems like there is no respect left anymore.


----------



## y'trA nitraM

*LOL*

crofter you seem to know alot , I hate to tell you but there are guy's that file chain's that will beat your guy by a few seconds and that is fact, Same wood same saw same guy running it, Het Art hurry up with your video. put some falling pic's on to .. Man this site is the best. I like it here i don't think i will ever leave : ) y'trA


----------



## Darin

> I like it here i don't think i will ever leave : ) y'trA



Unless you are asked to.


----------



## tony marks

lmao darin. 
jack i see u point ,but they a certain necessity for tact .. especilly on a forum of people who in general just share common interest. aint like a crew 
where everybody is use to spending friday nite trying to spend the rent at joes place.


----------



## Marky Mark

Any of you guys ever read this book. I understand it's from Art's time. I got hold of a copy and it's on it's way. I try to post some pics from it when I get the book. I love the internet and ebay.


----------



## tony marks

looks like good reading mark. i doubt its in the library but im gonna check anyway.
this ole stanly county library can surprize u with what there.


----------



## Jack Russell

Y'TrA

Thank you for acknowledsing that Art is one of the Best or among the best.Quote ( beat your guy by a few second ). 

To the members on this site feel-- our man Art is one of the best. But they are not just talking about sharping a chain. What comes to their mine is the Help and giving of himself and knowledage they have learned from Art

Your statement tells me every one knows that Art hard to beat and if so --it will be only by a second in a contest.

You and other have every right to brag on your man in a contest. May the best man win yours or ours .When it over All should part as friends.

I am not trying to say any one was right or any one was wrong in any group. if any group can beat our man in a contest I will gadly acknowledse He is Good.

This is the End ( Each Group Has A Number One Man That is Rated With The Best )


----------



## lucky

Bump.

Dbabcock, you tease! Where are the videos you promised? Take it easy. John


----------



## redpowerd

just wanted to say this is the most interesting stuff ive seen on the net in many moons

thanks mr. martin for the amazing stories and doug for throwing all those pics up here for the world to see.

thanks
jon


----------



## MasterBlaster

It's a GREAT THREAD, ain't it?


----------



## redpowerd

my favorite!

signed up here to say thanks, ill be sticking around,


----------



## MasterBlaster

So are you a climber, logger, r whut?


----------



## redpowerd

woah, wheres my sig?

i log allmost daily, not for a living.
got a mill and some tractors, sell firewood, burn firewood, manage a few woodlots, play with chainsaws, like to shoot animals for food, ect ect

will i fit in?


----------



## MasterBlaster

Aw, why the heck not?


----------



## glens

You sound like a fine northern redneck.&nbsp; Take it to another thread.

Glen


----------



## stihltech

*location*

Where abouts is suckerbrook. Do you know where Pike is?


----------



## redpowerd

my apoligies
its redundant, i know.

hate to tear up this great thread, and invite russ to remove the redundancy.

thanks for the correction.


----------



## rj selaf

_Sorry "rj", we can do without your antagonism. This post is gone._ 

jokers


----------



## MasterBlaster

Does anyone know the inventor and evolution of the climbing spur? The one shown in the attachment looks pretty odd to me, like their backwards or something.


----------



## Lawn Masters

I think they were designed so that you used them like they are shown in the picture, I could be wrong but I dont think I am. The idea was probably to climb up the tree with the spurs using the inner side of the foot to climb with for some reason, most likely because then you could go almost straight up the tree without having to put a lot of effort into it.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## MasterBlaster

You always use the inner part of your foot to climb. I'm talking bout the shank going up the outer part of your calf.


----------



## Crofter

looks like they would have a lot more flex being cantilevered out so far., Make your horse nervous too.

Frank


----------



## Art Martin

Masterblaster,

The climbing spurs in the picture were certainly odd looking by todays' standards. I found a pair of those spurs in an old abandoned logging shack. They were exactly like the the ones in the picture. Although I was never a climber, I tried them on and tried to climb a few steps on an old spar pole. They created a lot of pressure on the upper part of the leg above the calves and were really painful.

Art Martin


----------



## MasterBlaster

I wonder how long it took em to move the shank to the inside of the leg.


----------



## glens

They probably made the change no later than the time the first upper strap failed.

Glen


----------



## Art Martin

“Doggy boning” is a word coined by racing chain makers. In fact, in recent years there are those who claim to have invented it. Again, this is misinformation. “Doggy boning” is basically lowering the top center profile of a side strap. I use it to lighten the chain somewhat and I also like the appearance of it. I can’t claim for sure that it speeds up the actual cutting time, but every little bit helps. I was using “doggy boned” chains already in 1956. Since many of the chains in that era had the tie straps made that way at the factory. You could reverse the tie strap because both the top and bottom were identical. There were many chain companies in the ‘50’s that had that feature. The Blue Jet chain, that I used, had the notch on the top of the tie strap that matched the notch on the bottom. There was a lot of breakage on those tie straps probably because of the hammering with hard-faced round tipped bars as they were going into the wood in these big trees and not reaching through. The saws were all gear driven and had very slow chain speed. Probably metal fatigue set in from the constant pounding. I would often notice hairline cracks on either side while filing the chain and would replace those tie straps. Some of the companies making saw chains during the ‘50’s were: Atkins, Oregon, McCulloch, Mall, Sabre, Gouger, Delman, Stihl, Blue Jet, Beaver. Wolf, Reed Prentice, Standahl, Titan, Jamieson, Diston, Dyna-link, Remington, Burns, Zip-Penn, and Winsor and possibly more. Most of the companies changed their tie straps by just having the notch on the bottom where they fit on the sprocket. Using direct drive saws doesn’t seem to cause breaking in chains that are “doggy boned” at least I haven’t had any problems.

Art Martin


----------



## Madsaw

Hello Art,
Thank you for such very useful advice. I have a question for back into the old logging times. Down the page I posted a thread called race chain. Its actually a new chain from lombard, with carbide cutters on it. Did you evy see anything like this? If so what did you think of it?
Thank very much,
Bob


----------



## BigSawMan

I belive that they mainly used chisel chain, and that carbide was only used in the firefighting profession due to the reason that they might encounter nails.


Neil


----------



## Art Martin

Recently, I received a newspaper from the City of Campbell in Santa Clara County, California called the “Campbell Reporter”. On the front page was a large picture of a Redwood tree that had been planted by President Theodore Roosevelt in 1903. There were also other pictures of President Roosevelt planting the tree in the middle of Winchester Boulevard and Campbell Avenue along with a five-page article about this famous tree. Sixty years later, this intersection became one of the busiest in the area and had to be widened. The tree had grown to 65 feet tall by this time. Fearing protests to prevent the tree’s removal, the City Council voted to have it removed but thought it necessary to do so before the news got out. 

At that time, I was a fireman for the City of Campbell. The Fire Chief asked me to cut it down since he knew of my experience as a timber faller and he also wanted to save the City money. He also warned me not to hit any power lines or hit any stop signs or I’d be back in the woods falling timber. At 9:00 a.m. on the morning of September 29, 1964, I cut down this famous tree. I also cut an 8-foot section out of the tree above the undercut, This section was hauled to the Public Works yard where I cut a large pie, shaped section out of the log to make a bench. The Public works crew finished the surface and put on an appropriate sealer and delivered the bench to a park for public use. A fellow fireman remembered the incident and had the newspaper contact me for more details. 

At the time, a local woman, who was apparently a history buff, heard that the root section had been discarded. She rescued that discarded root section and had it planted in the adjoining City of Los Gatos in a large park there. It began to sprout and now is growing there as the famous Teddy Roosevelt tree for the public to view. This wasn’t the largest tree I’d ever fell but it was certainly the most famous.

Art Martin


----------



## BigSawMan

What would be the largest tree you ever felled? Seems to be bugging me for a while.



Neil


----------



## Art Martin

Madsaw,
I have never seen any chain like the one in the pictures that you submitted. It might have been designed for ice cutting or ripping. It certainly is not for crosscutting wood fiber. The hook that is put on the teeth looks like something that John Lambert might do.


BigSawMan,
Around 13 feet in diameter and over 200 feet tall. There is a video of three of these large trees in the Art Martin videos thread that Doug Babcock submitted.

Art Martin


----------



## butch

*big trees*

Mr. Martin,

I'm new to the site and have been reading this thread. I am very interested in these big trees you fell especially the one 13ft wide and 200 ft tall where in the world did you fall that one and do you have some sort of picture to post? I would really be intersted in seeing it if you could post it.

Thanks, Butch


----------



## Art Martin

Butch,

Just scroll down to Art Martin videos and you can see the pictures of these big trees falling.

Art


----------



## a_lopa

awsome stuff Art,i like the letter on cutting ash.your the man.top thread liked very much


----------



## Derek

*up to page 13*

This is cheating I know. Want to read rest later.. This saves me searching..... Mabey other new members havent stumbeled onto this thread yet Well worth a look.. 
Stay safe regards Derek..


----------



## Derek

*how to??*

Hi everyone, How do I go straight to page 13?
Do I have to go through previous pages, its going to be a lot of scrolling each time I want to continue where I left off..


And remember BE CAREFULL UP THERE!!!


Kind regards Derek


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

Click on any page number, then go to the address window, change the page number, and hit enter.


----------



## Derek

Thanxs mike..That makes it quick.
I notice this thread is 2 years old,I dont recall how I got to this thread but really glad I did. Any others i should be reading? Please suggest some of your favs.. Cheers Derek.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

http://arboristsite.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9&pagenumber=1&sortfield=voteavg&sortorder=desc&daysprune=1000&x=8&y=10


----------



## MasterBlaster

And, at the other end of the spectrum...

http://arboristsite.com/forumdispla...1&perpage=40&sortorder=desc&sortfield=voteavg


----------



## ontario026

This has been a super post, I have spent many hours today reading and looking at all the pics, Super informative! I have always wondered about logging in the old days, Makes me appreciate even more how easy we have things present day!

Matthew


----------



## Toneman

I agree, I love the pics and the stories
Thanks to all for sharing


----------



## Wolfcsm

Mr Martin,

Thank you for all of the great history. I grew up on Mt Hood in Oregon. Saw a lot of wood come down the mountain. Hard to imagine just how hard the life of a logger was.

Again, thanks,

Hal


----------



## Rotax Robert

Yessiree, this was the greatest thread ever.

Rotax


----------



## pbtree

I enjoyed it


----------



## Sprig

Thankyou so much Mr. Martin for sharing your experience(s), stories, and pictures, a wonderful read was this thread (mostly). Thankyou Doug for helping in this endeavour the pictures are no less than amazing history, alot of stuff like this gets chucked or buried in attics and it is great when somebody takes the time to pass it around. 
No thankyous and a raspberry to the 'people' who found it necessary to harrass/flame and try for a pissin' contest, you ought to be ashamed of yourselves, there's a place and time for everything is an old cliche and it fits well here imo.
Thanks again Art, I know this is an old thread but I hope your health has improved and you are well, it'd be nice to hear more from you one day and I'm sure many others would agree.

Regards, Serge


----------



## sawracr

Thanks Art, I like this thred not to mention the help you have givin' me. I know Art and how he cares. Jon


----------



## Art Martin

Hello Arborists Loyals,

Happy New Year to you all. I have decided to rejoin this thread after a long hiatus. I've been asked to write again, so I decided to give it a try. I'm enclosing some photos of a mandrel (filing vise) which is my latest project. I wore the other one out making racing chains.


----------



## fishhuntcutwood

Bunch of good old names in this thread. I oughtta take the time to sit down and read the whole thing one night on duty.

Welcome back Art.

Jeff


----------



## manual

Hi Art, I am glad to see you around here again.
I have enjoyed this thread, I can't even start to count how many times I have read this.
Mike


----------



## Tzed250

*Wow!!!*

The greatest thread ever on AS is back!!!


----------



## gatkeper1

Glad to see you back Art.
You've been missed.


----------



## pbtree

Hey Art - welcome back - looking forward to more fascinating reading...


----------



## Adkpk

Around the chain we go again, welcome back. Spiffy job on the mandrel. Got a question for you already. As a chainsaw miller, I am always wondering about the rakers. As the chain is tearing through the wood you are always trying to get as much wood out of the cut as posible. Does the shape of the raker have any bearing on the pull of the tooth? Thanks for coming back.


----------



## Wolfcsm

Welcome back and thanks for the pictures.

Hal


----------



## aggiewoodbutchr

opcorn:


----------



## asb151

Tzed250 said:


> The greatest thread ever on AS...



Without a doubt!


----------



## Stihl 041S

This has to be THE THREAD in the Biblical type, along with the great flood, there is not another one like it

Mister Martin Esq., if I may use the familiar, elegant vice. Cutoff blades for the rails?

My godmother grew up in a logging camp in upstate NY, her mom was the cook,always ready to listen to the stories.

I,m new to this forum, and didn't know about this thread, WOW, it is just so right, again, thank you.
Rob


----------



## GASoline71

Wow... good reading through this thread... AGAIN!  

Welcome back Art. Lookin' forward to more.opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: 

Gary


----------



## Dan Forsh

God bless you Art for jump starting your thread again.

I was recently thumbing through a few "which saw should I buy?" and "What mix ratio should I use?" threads and thinking how all the interesting threads that I used to see on here had dried up.

I recalled that someone had restarted your thread last year and this was my first viewing. I'll be honest, I couldn't remember your name and I couldn't remember the thread, but I was thinking of searching it out just so that people had something of worth to read. So I must appeal to anyone who hasn't seen this before...

Clear a couple hours, pour something pleasant, get comfy, kick your shoes off and settle down from the beginning.

This is one thread that really is worth reading from start to finish.

Dan


----------



## Art Martin

Adrpk,

The space between the teeth is where the sawdust is carried out with the momentum of the chain motion. If you lose the chain speed then it will bog down and it will be unable to clear the sawdust out of the cut. That’s why it’s necessary to have an engine with enough power to maintain this high speed on the chain. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "pull of the tooth." First of all, the term raker is not correct. It is a depth gauge. If it was a raker, it would follow the cutting edge of the tooth as a cross cut saw does. The purpose of the depth gauge is to measure the distance the tooth's edge is allowed to take its "bite." Theoretically, the lower the depth gauge, the thicker the chip size. Since the tooth slants down as it gets closer to the rear rivet, the depth gauge must also be lowered more that it was when it left the factory. This progressive method would be hard to explain or describe without a gauge that takes into account the distance from the rear of the tooth (heel) and the amount the depth must be lowered because of the slope of the top of the tooth. As the tooth takes its bite, the front of the tooth is raised up and stopped only by the depth gauge. Therefore, Ray Carlton designed the file 'O plate to automatically measure this distance for the average person. On a new chain where the depth gauge is down .025" the approximate depth when the tooth is filed back to the rear rivet is .037". The shape of the depth gauge, as it is lowered, should have the same profile of a new tooth which has the front edge somewhat rounded. The depth gauge depicted in the attached photos are the most accurate and are only for a professional to use when the depth gauge setting are done on a grinder.

Art Martin


----------



## dbabcock

Excellent to see you back, Art! We got your Christmas card and it's good to see that you and Marita are doing well. I've just retired from corporate life and am in the process of deciding what I want to do for a living when I grow up. Talk to you soon. You too, Rotax!


----------



## StIhL MaGnUm

Hey Art and Doug good to see you two fellas back been a long time .. as always Art excellent thread you have going here with a wealth of information on chains and how to really make them work . Keep it coming .

Doug my fellow NH man , no corporate life just means more time to play with saws and have a good time , I actualy live closer to you now in Manchester . You still have your camp ? Well hey keep intouch..


Later Rob


----------



## PLAYINWOOD

Good to see your return Art.


----------



## Adkpk

*very art-ticulate*



Art Martin said:


> Adrpk,
> 
> The space between the teeth is where the sawdust is carried out with the momentum of the chain motion. If you lose the chain speed then it will bog down and it will be unable to clear the sawdust out of the cut. That’s why it’s necessary to have an engine with enough power to maintain this high speed on the chain.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "pull of the tooth." First of all, the term raker is not correct. It is a depth gauge. If it was a raker, it would follow the cutting edge of the tooth as a cross cut saw does. The purpose of the depth gauge is to measure the distance the tooth's edge is allowed to take its "bite." Theoretically, the lower the depth gauge, the thicker the chip size. Since the tooth slants down as it gets closer to the rear rivet, the depth gauge must also be lowered more that it was when it left the factory. This progressive method would be hard to explain or describe without a gauge that takes into account the distance from the rear of the tooth (heel) and the amount the depth must be lowered because of the slope of the top of the tooth. As the tooth takes its bite, the front of the tooth is raised up and stopped only by the depth gauge. Therefore, Ray Carlton designed the file 'O plate to automatically measure this distance for the average person. On a new chain where the depth gauge is down .025" the approximate depth when the tooth is filed back to the rear rivet is .037". The shape of the depth gauge, as it is lowered, should have the same profile of a new tooth which has the front edge somewhat rounded. The depth gauge depicted in the attached photos are the most accurate and are only for a professional to use when the depth gauge setting are done on a grinder.
> 
> Art Martin




Explained to me perfectly. Tip to toe. "The shape of the depth gauge, as it is lowered, should have the same profile of a new tooth which has the front edge somewhat rounded." This is what I need to work on. Thanks Art


----------



## Adkpk

Btw, I am talking about ripping chain. Same rule, right?


----------



## ozflea

Nice fella Art,

Got the chance to shake Art's hand last October at Placerville and the Rupley Bros saw show along with our ole mate Rotax Robert all these fellas are very nice people and if possible i will return next year from Australia.







The Gang






Mc Bob and Mike Rupley with Mikes Mac.






Jarad Plourde ... Marita Martin ... McBob.

Mc Bob.


----------



## Art Martin

Adrpk,

As far as the profile of the depth gauge is concerned, the rounded front edge would apply. As far as the amount the depth gauges are lowered would depend on the size of the saw/saws you are using as well as the type, size, and hardness of the wood you are ripping. 

Art Martin


----------



## Sprig

Great to see you back here Art I look forward to more learning curve! This has been a great thread bar none! (ya ya pun)
I have a question about your depth gauge and that is is, how do you use it?
I am guessing that the square stock rides on a couple of the teeth behind the raker? Could you possibly post a pic or two of your tool sitting on a chain taking a reading? That would be very cool! Anyhow, hope all is well with you and your's and nice to see you out and about 



Serge


----------



## 046

Art, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Art Martin

Sprig,
The gauge that I posted the picture of is only to measure the exact depth of a certain tooth that you want to duplicate on a table chain grinder. If for instance you have a fast cutting chain and you want to use the same depth setting on another chain, all you need to do is place the square body of the gauge over several teeth to make sure it is level and adjust the dial indicator to get the reading on that particular tooth. Then you file down one tooth on the new chain to match that reading in the gauge. Then you place that chain in the bench chain grinder and lower the grinding wheel until it barely touches that pre- set tooth, then lock in your adjustment wheel and you are ready to get all your depth gauges the exact height. Then all you need to do is round off the front of the depth gauges to follow the profile of the original depth gauge. It's real fast and accurate. For those people that use the depth gauges that you purchase these days are fixed at a certain setting and are not adjustable, you can't follow the progressive method unless you go to the file 'O plate or have an old depth gauge with an adjustment wheel on it. Even with those adjustable gauges it was hard to know what the thousandths are because they just had numbers on the adjustment wheel that ran from 1 to 9. Myself, I like to know what the exact setting is in thousandths. Just for week-end wood cutters it isn't that important just as long as they don't have the chain on backwards, I suppose.

Art Martin


----------



## Adkpk

Art Martin said:


> Adrpk,
> 
> As far as the profile of the depth gauge is concerned, the rounded front edge would apply. As far as the amount the depth gauges are lowered would depend on the size of the saw/saws you are using as well as the type, size, and hardness of the wood you are ripping.
> 
> Art Martin



Saw, type, size, hardness where do I start to figure that out? I mean, I don't need to make record breaking time going through a cut. But sometimes I feel the chain isn't ripping aggressively enough. I, of course think the depth gauge needs to be filed down. I just use the thingy you mentioned Carlton invented. And grind off the top of the depth gauge. But than I thinks to myself, what if I need to shape it. Or, what tells me how much for what wood or saw or size?


----------



## PLAYINWOOD

Hi Art. Very ingenious method of mounting a dial indicator on a machined piece of straightedge. You guys are taking this racing stuff to the en'th degree thats for sure. And why wouldn't you, fun is fun.
Mr.Martin if you have a moment, I read somewhere of your dealings with frozen wood and I can't find it anywhere. I'm currently using a Razor Sharp and am having an awful go with some frozen and probably dirty hard maple. If you had a minute I was
looking for any useful information regarding top plate and side plate cutter angles.
Have been watching for your presence on another site but to no avail.If your hangin somewhere else I would love to know.My PM system dosen't work here but it does elsewhere.
Thanx in advance Jeff....


----------



## Art Martin

Hi Jeff,

I'm sorry that I can't help you on frozen timber because I've never worked in an area where the timber freezes. The article you are referring to must have been authored by someone else who lives in cold climate. 

Art Martin


----------



## blis

Art Martin said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I'm sorry that I can't help you on frozen timber because I've never worked in an area where the timber freezes. The article you are referring to must have been authored by someone else who lives in cold climate.
> 
> Art Martin



I cut pretty much of frozen timber (and i mean totally frozen) and the general advice is that frozen wood requiress less angle (topplate and sideplate) than not-frozen wood and also slightly lowered depthgauges to keep up the chip flow...


----------



## Art Martin

ozflea

G'day Bob,
Nice to hear from you and thanks for posting the pictures from the Placerville show. I'm glad to hear that you are planning to build a saw with an 820 West Bend engine after seeing my two West Bend saws. Just don't paint it yellow. Also it makes me happy to see that you changed your "handle" from Mc Bob to Bender Bob. Best regards and see you later this year.

Bender Art


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Art Martin said:


> ...or have an old depth gauge with an adjustment wheel on it. Even with those adjustable gauges it was hard to know what the thousandths are because they just had numbers on the adjustment wheel that ran from 1 to 9. Myself, I like to know what the exact setting is in thousandths. Art Martin




Yeah Art....I think this is the type of gauge you're talking about. They work quick and easy and mine even has adjustments in thousandths. Unfortunately Oregon doesn't make them anymore.


----------



## PLAYINWOOD

Art Martin said:


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I'm sorry that I can't help you on frozen timber because I've never worked in an area where the timber freezes. The article you are referring to must have been authored by someone else who lives in cold climate.
> 
> Art Martin


Please excuse my memory faux paux. I think the thread was from 4 or 5 years ago and I'm still a searchin. I'll bump it if I can find it.Thank you.


----------



## olyman

wonderful thread--three days later i finally get it all read--only wish i lived closer to cali--much thanks,Art---oly


----------



## Fish

Yes a good long winded thread, I wish I lived closer to Darin........................


----------



## ozflea

Art Martin said:


> ozflea
> 
> G'day Bob,
> Nice to hear from you and thanks for posting the pictures from the Placerville show. I'm glad to hear that you are planning to build a saw with an 820 West Bend engine after seeing my two West Bend saws. Just don't paint it yellow. Also it makes me happy to see that you changed your "handle" from Mc Bob to Bender Bob. Best regards and see you later this year.
> 
> Bender Art



Well it's because of people like yourself and Marita and of course her wonderful sandwiches that i'll return i certainly enjoyed the hospitality you and the Rupeley's extended towards both me and Jared.

As regards the ROOT saw i'll be inclined to redo it in it's origional colours do you still have that spare Westbend 820 ?? I haven't forgotten it.

Bender Bob.


----------



## Art Martin

olyman

oly,

Just move!


----------



## Art Martin

ozflea

G'day Bob,

I still have that 820 West Bend that has never been started. 
I'm glad you taught me how to speak Australian and I still remember it, like G'day. Also I now know the difference between a Crocodile and an Alligator. Other than that I didn't understand a word you were saying. We look forward to seeing you again and we'll throw another shrimp on the barbie. Good luck on restoring the Root saw.

Best regards,
Art


----------



## olyman

art--having had a auto repair business for 30+ years--i aint moving!!!!!!!!!!!!! there aint a semi big enough!!!!!!!!!!! but the climate would suit me!!!!!!!!:biggrinbounce2: :biggrinbounce2:


----------



## Art Martin

Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut. Most people don’t think much about the process, they just hold the saw and eventually the log is severed by this mean, dangerous and fast turning tool attached to a loud, noisy engine.
Most people are also surprised to learn that a tooth must actually leave the guide bar groove to cut wood efficiently. The chain cuts by a “porpoising” action. It resembles a porpoise swimming in the ocean. The leading edge of the tooth starts the “bite” causing the tooth to rock back as far as the depth gauge will allow it. The tooth is now in the cutting position. The cutter now leaves the groove of the bar and goes into the wood. The tension of the chain now increases and the power of the engine pulls the chain back out of the wood and the severed chip exits from the underside of the cutter (chip channel). The tooth now returns to its original position and the process is repeated over and over by the teeth on the chain.
The depth gauges are often referred to as “rakers”. The actual function of the depth gauge is to determine how far the tooth will rock back and how big of a bite it will take. In real softwood, the depth gauge will sometimes sink into the wood itself and cause the saw to bog down. On real softwood it may be better to run the chain with higher depth gauges. The “clearance angle” of the cutter is the reason why a tooth is able to rock back and take its bite. The clearance angle is the downward slope of the tooth as it goes from front to rear. The rear of the tooth is lower than the front. Without a clearance angle, the cutter would not be able to rock out the wood.
.
Art Martin


----------



## buck futter

*oh maybe this will work*

http://www.bantasaw.com/products/ChainSaw/Guide/guide_working.shtml


I think Art should file 







a lawsuit those guys on that site stole the words right out of his mouth.:hmm3grin2orange: :stupid:



oh and by the way Fred when is the nephew 372 going to be done? We have been waiting on that saw for a year.


----------



## trimmmed

buck futter said:


> http://www.bantasaw.com/products/ChainSaw/Guide/guide_working.shtml
> 
> 
> I think Art should file
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a lawsuit those guys on that site stole the words right out of his mouth.:hmm3grin2orange: :stupid:



Did you read what he said? 



Art Martin said:


> Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. *With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures*, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut.
> .
> Art Martin



Now where did bantasaw get it? Maybe from the Carlton Handbook? 

http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf

scroll to page 5.


----------



## Art Martin

The abbreviated post that I submitted "how a chain cuts" was meant for the new comers to this site. It is readily available on many chain information sites, I suppose.
For a more comprehensive discussion about the subject, read the entire page 18 of this thread. You will not find this type of discussion on any other site. The opinions that I gave are mine and are the results of my 50 years experience along with the results my tests, versus the opinions of a very intelligent educated mathematician/analyst with virtually no chainsaw experience. Some of it goes over to page 19.

Art Martin


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas

I'd like to hear more about the dechroming and stoning of the cutter!
Thanks for the great thread!


----------



## 046

here's a link to page 18
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=4932&page=18

thanks for sharing... would have never found it.

just read from page 18 to 32.... what a lot of info!!!


----------



## Lou

*Inspired Read*

Health and Happiness to you and your Lady Mr. Martin and to all that frequent this site. Thank you for the glimpse into a time long past.
Lou


----------



## troutfisher

Mr. Martin, Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience. I enjoy this thread very much.


----------



## RiverRat2

*Hey Buck Futter,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,*

Mind your manners please,,,, If you dont like this type of thread,,, nobobdy's asking you to stay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bang:
Thanks alot Art,,,, A pleasure as always


----------



## Dok

What an incredible thread! Thank you for sharing, Art. My uncle Ernie Celeri was the fire chief in Fort Bragg when he was killed in the early 70's. His brother, Dom Celeri, was a topper for many years in that area. I'm saving this thread and the pictures, it is special to me to know what my family was doing back in the day.
Brad


----------



## GASoline71

Bump... 

Gary


----------



## Tzed250

I would love it if this thread regained the momentum it had back in the day...


----------



## GASoline71

Yup...   

Gary


----------



## sILlogger

m playing catch up on this thread, (pg. 4) it seems as tho Art is a great man that has been dedicated to the woods. Did Art take those pics? did he start out cutting with axes and crosscuts and move into chainsaws? i believe i was born 100 yrs too late.


----------



## ShoerFast

It is a good read, and free screen-savers towards the beginning!

Here is one idea along the lines of this thread:







There is a chance that Gypo could get this ball rolling again?


----------



## stihl 440

*good thread*

This is a good thread, took me 2 nights to read it though!  :greenchainsaw:


----------



## RiverRat2

*and worth everyminute of it !!!!!!*



stihl 440 said:


> This is a good thread, took me 2 nights to read it though!  :greenchainsaw:



That Art,,,,He is a class act!!!!!!!!!!!! it is an honor and a privledge to have him share and grace us with his knowledge about chains and sawyership in general,,,,,

We are not Worthy!!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRat2

*Good Move!!!!*

​


GASoline71 said:


> Bump...
> 
> Gary



it is a breath of fresh air!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## crazymanmike

good lord there is a lot of reading in this thread. lots of good info and I'll see you in week or so when I am done.

CMM


----------



## Art Martin

When I began working in the woods right after graduating from high school, only hand tools were used in our area. However, drag saws were still used to some extent in some areas. The drag saws were cumbersome and very heavy as well as dangerous. They were not practical in the steep terrain common to the timberland where I worked.

The tools that I became familiar with in the beginning were double bladed axes and crosscut felling saws. These saws were not as wide as bucking saws because the width of a bucking saw was necessary so that it would not to buckle when used by a single person. The felling saws were narrower as two people were needed to use them. Also the narrower felling saws allowed more room for the long, narrow felling wedges to be placed in the back of the cut sooner so as not to let the huge redwoods to set back. Set back means that the weight of the tree closes the back cut which would close the kerf and therefore pinch the saw making it impossible to pull. Bucking wedges, which were shorter and wider, were used to keep the kerf open to allow the saw to move back and forth. They were also used as “hanging” wedges on hillsides to prevent the log from rolling when placed lengthwise with the grain spanning the cut holding the logs together until severed. Undercutters were used to finish the cut from underneath the log when a tree was in a bind and the top part of the log could no longer be sawed because the cut was closing. Spring boards were usually used at every tree, on the lower side because of the steep terrain. They were also used to allow a person to stand above a swelled tree trunk or “butt” when putting in the undercut. “Gunning” sticks were necessary to aim where the tree was to fall, and of course, caulk boots were required for safe footing. All these tools were necessary and used daily. “Tin” hats were not used at the time but became required much later. 
I lived at the logging camps and ate in the cookhouses. The food in the cookhouses was exceptionally good and nourishing and there was plenty of it. The companies knew that a man could not work hard unless he was well fed. The cooks were usually Chinese. The days were long and the pay was poor. The future looked bleak with no way out. This was akin to the hopelessness of today’s coal miners. It seemed at times the only thing to do in a timber town was to go work in the woods. College was out of the question because of lack of money and no desire at the time, A HUGE MISTAKE. The Northwest timber faller career seemed colorful to some, but it was not in reality. At the time I graduated from high school, being a timber faller was the goal of an idealistic young man. For someone who had never had much money, the thought all that BIG money was very impressive. No real thought was given to the actual work and how hard it would be to earn that money.

Art Martin


----------



## Just Mow

Wow, I have been reading and if this were a book I would buy it.
Nice work Mr.Martin


----------



## Tzed250

Nice to hear from you again Art! What year did you start in the woods? Also, I would love to know what the standard equipment was when you retired. Have a good one...


----------



## RiverRat2

*+1*



Just Mow said:


> Wow, I have been reading and if this were a book I would buy it.
> Nice work Mr.Martin



Yep good stuff.......

Thanks again Art,,, As always a pleasure


----------



## rbtree

Welcome back, Art!! It's great to hear from you again. I hope all is well with you and yours. We're all eager to hear more stories of your incredible experiences as a pioneering logger, whose career spanned many eras.


----------



## Crofter

Nice to see you back! You have experience and knowledge of the timber industry thru a time of some great changes in technology. Your way of boiling down the essential principles of chain sharpening has been a huge help to a lot of people. You seem to have a way of making it "klick"


----------



## stihl 440

*art*

Glad to know you're still around art!  :rockn:


----------



## FSburt

*Falling with crosscuts*

Hi Art good see you posting again. Hey I have a question about when you guys were falling with crosscuts did you guys try to keep from falling your trees with the lean most of the time because your crosscuts could not cut fast enough to keep the trees from barberchairing. I know on head leaners this was the case but i was wondering about most of the other trees and if you guys quartered your trees out of the lean for the above reason. I just bought J Baraneks Picture book about the last of the heavy old growth logging on the North coast and it was a good book with alot of good pictures of the modern redwood logging. Take care Art.


----------



## Art Martin

In 1955 at the first show that I competed in was held in Fort Bragg. This was prior to the chainsaws, they were all hand and climbing events. It was the biggest logging show on the West coast and possibly anywhere in the U.S. at that time. It was open anyone from anywhere, even Canada. The Paul Bunyan Logging Show started in 1939 and at that time just the first prize alone was $500 which was big money. That’s why it drew so many world champions in different events. Many of the world champions came there to compete (i.e. George Moen of Castle Rock, WA hand bucker; Kelly Stanley of Centralia, WA, climber) but the star attraction of the show was Danny Sailor from British Columbia. He was many times world champion speed climber. He would do special acts at the of a 100 foot pole (i.e. standing on his head, one legged squats, and dancing the Charleston). His decent from the top of the pole was his trademark. He always wore a black derby hat and as he was about to start down, he would throw his hat as you would a Frisbee and as it floated down, he would beat the hat to the ground—quite a class act. He had even performed in front of the Queen of England to his credits. There were other tree toppers such as Hap Johnson who doubled for John Wayne in the movie “North to Alaska”. 

The choppers used double-bitted axes prior to the invasion of the Australian choppers who used single bladed axes and there were no standing block chopping events. 

My sights were on the single bucking event. I had heard that Paul Searls was coming down from Sedro Wooley, Washington and he had been at least a seven-time single bucking champion. He also held the Guinness world record for a single bucker on a 32” Doug-fir by a single person. He used a Simonds 7 foot Royal Chinook 503 crosscut saw filed by Martin Winters of Olympia, Washington. I knew he had been retired for several years so I thought he would be easy prey for a young, strong, well conditioned bucker with high hopes. The only problem was that I only had the services of a regular local saw filer who worked in the woods and knew nothing about racing saws. The log they had set up was about 40 inches and was a super hard sinker that had been pulled up from the bottom of the log pond. I later found out they did it on purpose to teach the outsiders a lesson of winning big money too easily at the Fort Bragg show. 
Paul Searls and I started sawing at the same time. About 2 minutes into the cut, Paul seemed to collapse and leaned his body, onto the log, arms and face down, breathing heavily. I continued sawing and in my mind I thought that I had beaten the world champion single bucker on my first attempt. Well, I was wrong. Paul’s friend was standing next to him with a stop watch, counting off the seconds as he rested and got his breath back. All of a sudden he started sawing again and beat me by 30 seconds. I sawed around 4 minutes and he sawed about 3 ½ minutes. What a disappointment, but it wasn’t my last.

Art Martin


----------



## manual

How ya doing Art ?
So tell me is this when you started sharping your own saws?


----------



## Art Martin

FSburt,

In response to your question about heavy leaners, we left a lot of them because of the eminent danger of barberchairing and/or no "layout" to save the tree. Large virgin Redwoods don't hold up well spanning the bearings without breaking. We didn't fall Redwoods that were under 6' dbh.

Art Martin


----------



## SRT-Tech

Mr Martin, first a thanks for all the history and pictures, i love that stuff.  

second, when you were topping off those big giants, how do you deal with the trunk springing back as all that weight was released? i was 80' up today, dropping a 12" x 20' long limb, and maaaan did that tree move sideways as the weight was released. I cant even imagine working on those big giants you were on!!! 

:jawdrop:


----------



## Art Martin

Manual,
I got started sharpening crosscut saws much later than the 50’s. I had the opportunity to spend a week in Olympia, Washington with Martin Winters who was the expert saw filer of those early days. He filed saws for almost all the world champions from the late 30’s until he retired. His saws usually won first, second and third places at all the major shows. He was also a major contributor to a book that was sold through the Government Printing Office “How to Sharpen a Crosscut Saw”. He taught many people such Ron Hartel, Paul Searls, Sven Johnson as well. He made them raker gauges that were calibrated to certain numbers not thousandths. I’m enclosing a picture of the gauge he made for me. The sloped part of the gauge is set at a constant 17° and the gauge itself is set on number 9. For instance, on a certain saw for a certain sawyer, it was marked 7X8 or 9X9 depending if the sawyer pulled a flat saw or rocked it. Also, he would have a 9X8 for the “lead” where one side of the raker was higher than the other. For instance, he would have the middle raker the same, say 8X8, then going toward the handle side, the front part of the raker would be higher than 8 with the following side of the raker being 8. This allowed for a bigger bite. Then going from the center raker to the other end, the same setting would apply but in reverse, the front point of the raker would be slightly higher than the trailing side of the raker. Unless you had one of his saws, you wouldn’t have any idea what the rakers would be set at. He handmade the gauges and matched each gauge to a master gauge so they would all read the same. There is much more to the entire procedure and many steps involved, such as jointing, setting, swagging and straightening the saw. A whole series could be done on this subject.

Art Martin


----------



## Art Martin

SRT-Tech

I was never a climber or topper so never experienced the kick-back and swaying of the tree after the top portion was cut off. although watched it many times. The tree would sway for a half an hour. 
As a firefighter I climbed the 100' aerial ladders and that was sort of hairy at first when you looked down and the truck looked as small as a Tonka toy.

Art


----------



## manual

Very impressive Art.
I know I have sharpened band saw blades using off sets, so I can understand some of what you are talking about. 
How do you go about swagging ? Hammer and Vice?


----------



## fwgsaw

just figured i would say something too every one else has. great post more information than i can absorb. Thanks Art :greenchainsaw:


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## 046

Art, thanks for sharing!

it's a real treat... seeing you post again....


----------



## clearance

I sat down and read this thread, way over my head, just nice to just be around it, thank you. You are the man.


----------



## huskydave

I just want to say WOW I can't believe the MAN is on this site! If I was interested in building a race chain let alone learning the best cutting techniques.I would thank you soooooo much for providing all this top secret material for us rookies. that being said I love the history lessons. I have many people in my family that worked under the same conditions that you have written. I know a good cook that cooks wild game every year and he worked in a lumber camp. I love to see him he always has a good recipe for whatever I hunt or shoot! I can honestly say the pictures and history you have shared have changed my life. The massive trees and the conditions you worked in have me in awe! I can say PLEASE don't let people with big ego's let you from responding to their petty remarks and let all this information flow. I know whenever you race something people get caught up in it. I have seen that at my young age and I get frustrated too. I can say that at 10 hoursto complete a RACE CHAIN you have the knowledge and know how that many of us can only dream about so never sell yourself short. I enjoy the pictures and the history part more than the I know beter than you nonsense. I can't say I knocked down half the diameter the trees you guys did and with a crosscut saw too boot. I am a young guy but many In my family have provided food for all of my offspring by cutting and log driving or cooking or climbing or skidding and in some cases snowplanes were a bit part also. we had alligators in my area big tugs with huge paddle wheels to climb up on land if the need be and that worked great at the time their were no roads! Everything went along the rivers. I will tell you that just the history alone you have left a good legacy here and I will chanlange anyone who opposes your views, period. I am a second period machinist apprentice and I know a bit about pefectionism if thats a word. One day I will duplicate your chain and it will be all CnC grinders and machines that are computer operated. I know this sounds lame but I can do anything manual as well. or as they say OLD SCHOOL why? because I love the challenge. If it takes you 10 hours to complete a race chain than maybe I can do it in 20 or 30 until I figure out what you are up to. I don't argue with success. The trophy's that you have are impressive to say the least. I am glad you can share all of this knowhow with us rookies. Thank you for your time patience especially and courage to state your own mind. Peace!


----------



## romeo

*Mr. Fish*

I had an old friend who started logging up in Oregon way back in the 10's and 20's. He was in his mid 90's when I knew him and he's been gone for quite a while now. I never knew his first name, to me he was just Mr. Fish. Its funny to hear this generation of "old guys" talk about how tough it was to lug those big Mac's in the woods. Old Mr. Fish said he had been logging for nearly 20 years when he saw his first chain saw, and he said none of the loggers liked them because they were too slow and heavy anyway. He had stories of dropping trees with crosscuts, axes, and even sometimes dynamite.
He used to think it was funny that I competed with crosscuts and axes. He would say "why the heck would you want to do that for fun if you don't have to?" I remember he had half of a broken crosscut saw that spanned nearly 15 foot across his living room wall and it looked like it was the small half. Some times I wonder if anyone competing in timber sports today could have kept up with any of those guys, even the "slow" ones.
The old guy had some great stories and I miss talking to him. Art, keep those old memories and photos coming, I really enjoy them.

Sean


----------



## manual

Hey Huskydave,
I feel the same way, I wish more people out there would support the sport like Art has been doing here.
I like to examine his tooling, I started making a chain mandrel on my spare time, Might get it done next winter now.


----------



## RiverRat2

*Spare time,,,,*



manual said:


> Hey Huskydave,
> I feel the same way, I wish more people out there would support the sport like Art has been doing here.
> I like to examine his tooling, I started making a chain mandrel on my spare time, Might get it done next winter now.



Where did you find that!!!!!!! LOL


----------



## Matildasmate

*Realy good stuff Art - regards Matildasmate*



Art Martin said:


> Since this thread has been bumped up, I thought it would be a good idea to put to rest something that apparently bothers a few people who have been trying to discredit me. First they attack me on my chains, then my crosscut saws, then my friends and finally my age. How low can you get?
> I have been getting disgusting, filthy and offensive emails from Tom Fales, Jr., sometimes on a daily basis. Some of it stems from my mentioning that I once filed crosscut saws for Mark Etcheberry. He calls me a liar and doesn’t think that ever happened. Well, I filed saws for a lot of people and didn’t necessarily care what their status was as to being famous or not, I treated everyone the same. I respect people who go on to be outstanding in their field but still remain humble. I believe people who have attained some notoriety should not become narcissistic and push their emotions and sentiments onto others who just don’t care and aren’t interested.
> I will post the letters from Mark Etcheberry for everyone to see and they can judge for themselves the credibility of these few people who have managed to damage this fine Arboristsite.
> Later I want to again re-open the subject of full house chains since there has been doubt put on it’s ability to cut as fast as I claim. This probably will again affect the credibility of some so-called “experts” on the site. So be it. I stand behind all the articles I have submitted in the series on race chains. Why wouldn’t I, since I have over 45 years of experience.
> 
> Art Martin



Hi Art Top thread top read sad to see a few clowns get nasty anway keep it up regards Matildasmate Manfred


----------



## pbtree

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Art Top thread top read sad to see a few clowns get nasty anway keep it up regards Matildasmate Manfred



Ditto!


----------



## THALL10326

*By far one of the very best threads ever!!!*

I've been reading this thread for quite awhile and its amazing the dedication Art shows in his work and throughout his life in the saw feild. This thread is more less a lifetime of work. High five to you Art and keep this thread going, its like reading a real good book. Years of wisdom given for free is as good as it gets Art, glad you share your wisdom, good man and good job!!!


----------



## 2000ssm6

Yep! Great thread


----------



## jra1100

*Thanks Art*

I have very much enjoyed this thread. A lot of the technical parts about racing chains are way beyond my knowledge base, but interesting all the same. I especially enjoy the old pictures. I hope that we can see more of them. JR


----------



## 24d

*Bump*

I read it some every week-I know I learn some from it-but still feel I know less when I finish-its amaze'n one man can know so much about a racing chain and still be will'n to share with all of us


----------



## a_lopa

How is Art Martin these days??


----------



## 820wards

a_lopa said:


> How is Art Martin these days??



Talked to him on Thursday and he's doing great!

jerry-


----------



## RiverRat2

820wards said:


> Talked to him on Thursday and he's doing great!
> 
> jerry-



Good deal!!!!!

Best regards to all!!!! and Merry Christmas is not far away,,,,, like barely two weeks!!!!!!!!


----------



## belgian

I enjoyed very much the first part of this thread, where Art described the logging in the old days... what a tough way of living that must have been. And how technology slowly changed the industry.

As far as chainsaws are concerned, I almost laughed my hat off when he mentioned


> "The gear ratio was 3:1, so the chain speed was so slow you could almost file the chain while it was running"



great way of making your point...  


thanks for sharing this great story with us, Art !!!


----------



## Gologit

belgian said:


> I enjoyed very much the first part of this thread, where Art described the logging in the old days... what a tough way of living that must have been. And how technology slowly changed the industry.
> 
> As far as chainsaws are concerned, I almost laughed my hat off when he mentioned
> 
> great way of making your point...
> 
> 
> thanks for sharing this great story with us, Art !!!



I agree. Not everyone is willing to share what he knows and that's a damn shame. Art Martin's contribution is a help to anyone willing to take the advice and make things better for himself.
Thanks again, Art. Hope things are going well for you.  Bob


----------



## 820wards

boboak said:


> I agree. Not everyone is willing to share what he knows and that's a damn shame. Art Martin's contribution is a help to anyone willing to take the advice and make things better for himself.
> Thanks again, Art. Hope things are going well for you.  Bob



Art lives about 1 hour from my cabin and I get to visit with him throughout the year. You should see his chaisaw shop built onto his home. It's really nice. Last time I was there he showed me the wood, I guess you'd call it a bucking saw sharpening holder. It is really cool the way you can change the angles for sharpening the teeth at a comfortable position. He even has a machine that puts the grove in bars and many other pieces of equipment that he has made for working on saw chains and making bars. Art's a real nice guy to talk with and is loaded with talent, you should see the oil paintings that he does, wow!

Gotta go...
jerry-


----------



## Urbicide

820wards said:


> Art lives about 1 hour from my cabin and I get to visit with him throughout the year. You should see his chaisaw shop built onto his home. It's really nice. Last time I was there he showed me the wood, I guess you'd call it a bucking saw sharpening holder. It is really cool the way you can change the angles for sharpening the teeth at a comfortable position. He even has a machine that puts the grove in bars and many other pieces of equipment that he has made for working on saw chains and making bars. Art's a real nice guy to talk with and is loaded with talent, you should see the oil paintings that he does, wow!
> 
> Gotta go...
> jerry-



A few pics would be nice.


----------



## 820wards

Urbicide said:


> A few pics would be nice.



Next time I go up there I'll take my camera.

jerry-


----------



## Urbicide

That would be very cool Jerry. Art is a living legend.


----------



## a_lopa

820wards said:


> Talked to him on Thursday and he's doing great!
> 
> jerry-



Thanks say hi from mick dundees buddy!


----------



## Metals406

*Bump*

I saw Art online today... Sure wish he'd post more!

I missed all the good Q&A from '02 thru '05.


----------



## barkies

bump


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Question for Art what kind of calks were those you had in that one pic?


----------



## Erick

Man........  I saw this thread back up and thought Art might have finally made a new post. 

Art I know you still read here, we would love to have you back to share some knowledge and spin a yarn or two.


----------



## fullpower_65

Gotta bump the best thread on this site. 

Art Martin is *Da Boss*.


----------



## barkies

bump


----------



## Metals406

Mr. Martin, thanks for the reply.

Do you have anything you have been working on in the past year or two that you could post? I.e. New chain grinding stuff, new jigs/fixtures, etc?

I always enjoy seeing what you have to post!


----------



## Art Martin

Metals406,

You asked if I had been involved in any projects during the past few years. Well, yes I have. My most recent project was to help a friend who lives in Cottage Grove, Oregon. I let him borrow my modified P52 to use in the 5 cubic class at various contests in California, Oregon and Washington. I supplied all of his racing chains for the other classes as well. He sent me a letter when the racing season was over, stating that he had won a total of 26 first places in the 5 and over, 6 and under and the 6 and over classes.

Also, I redesigned the profile of the chisel bit teeth with good results. They cut somewhat faster than the other teeth. Also it is undetectable and can’t be copied by my adversaries.

The reason I stopped posting for quite awhile was that I just got tired of being put down for writing my thread. It appears that Darin has put a stop to this nonsense by banning those responsible for this negative behavior. Now we can continue with the Arboristsite for the purpose that it was intended--which was a learning venue.

I often receive question asking for my opinion on various racing chain subjects. I will continue to answer to the best of my knowledge.

Art Martin


----------



## greengoblin

nice to see you back


----------



## Work Saw Collector

*I Read it all worth the time*

I just read all of this thread, man its long. I'm not into racing but loved the pictures and the stories of how it was. Thanks.


----------



## RiverRat2

*Yep!!!!!*



greengoblin said:


> nice to see you back



+1


----------



## STEVEGODSEYJR

WOW!!!
What a thread!!! I was just into sawing firewood to heat the house and have become very interested in chainsaws now. I never thought there was this much info out there. I love chainsaw and history. Art Martin is an absolute history book with a VAST wealth of information. It is people like him that help the younger generation like me learn so much!! I just wanted to take the time to say thank you for all your posts and the effort you put into this thread. You are THE MAN!!:hmm3grin2orange::yourock:


----------



## Gologit

Art Martin said:


> Metals406,
> 
> You asked if I had been involved in any projects during the past few years. Well, yes I have. My most recent project was to help a friend who lives in Cottage Grove, Oregon. I let him borrow my modified P52 to use in the 5 cubic class at various contests in California, Oregon and Washington. I supplied all of his racing chains for the other classes as well. He sent me a letter when the racing season was over, stating that he had won a total of 26 first places in the 5 and over, 6 and under and the 6 and over classes.
> 
> Also, I redesigned the profile of the chisel bit teeth with good results. They cut somewhat faster than the other teeth. Also it is undetectable and can’t be copied by my adversaries.
> 
> The reason I stopped posting for quite awhile was that I just got tired of being put down for writing my thread. It appears that Darin has put a stop to this nonsense by banning those responsible for this negative behavior. Now we can continue with the Arboristsite for the purpose that it was intended--which was a learning venue.
> 
> I often receive question asking for my opinion on various racing chain subjects. I will continue to answer to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Art Martin



Thank you. It's good to see you back.


----------



## Darin

Art Martin said:


> Metals406,
> 
> It appears that Darin has put a stop to this nonsense by banning those responsible for this negative behavior. Now we can continue with the Arboristsite for the purpose that it was intended--which was a learning venue.
> 
> Art Martin



I sure have tried but they can still manage to sign up some how. One of the guys claims he has 70 aliases. In the meantime they sent out a letter complaining to all the sponsors on how poorly the site is run and how they got kicked off for no reason. HAHA. The guy who complained even had a part in there where he said he was going to change his helpful pictures into advertisements. I guess I can't see why I didn't keep him on here. LOL It was the first time I had been on the site and can see why. Glad to have you on here. Hopefully the advertisers will read through the lines on how the rat pack behaves on other sites and on this one in the past. I have no problem with them personally, it's just that they can't behave. That translates into me being a jerk I guess. Thanks for spending your time here. 
BTW Do you know ever happened to Walt Galer? He was a great guy to have around.
Take Care,


----------



## Metals406

Art Martin said:


> Metals406,
> 
> You asked if I had been involved in any projects during the past few years. Well, yes I have. My most recent project was to help a friend who lives in Cottage Grove, Oregon. I let him borrow my modified P52 to use in the 5 cubic class at various contests in California, Oregon and Washington. I supplied all of his racing chains for the other classes as well. He sent me a letter when the racing season was over, stating that he had won a total of 26 first places in the 5 and over, 6 and under and the 6 and over classes.
> 
> Also, I redesigned the profile of the chisel bit teeth with good results. They cut somewhat faster than the other teeth. Also it is undetectable and can’t be copied by my adversaries.
> 
> The reason I stopped posting for quite awhile was that I just got tired of being put down for writing my thread. It appears that Darin has put a stop to this nonsense by banning those responsible for this negative behavior. Now we can continue with the Arboristsite for the purpose that it was intended--which was a learning venue.
> 
> I often receive question asking for my opinion on various racing chain subjects. I will continue to answer to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Art Martin



Awesome! Glad to hear your saw's and chain are winning races! 

If you have any new pictures you would like to post, I'd love to see them!


----------



## thomas72

Good to see you are bringing this thread back to life.


----------



## EzTrbo

I did a lot of "fast tracking" through this thread(mostly skiping hte BS stuff) but wow. Art you are an amazing man of the woods and the saw. The things you have learned over the years are amazing and I've always respected my elders and truly belive the title "The Greatest Generation" is best fitted. I wish I could hear about all the things my two grandpas had done and built and made over the yeras in well drilling and earth moving. The stories I hear from them are priceless. I've saved a number of "tech" post you have had for future reference and look forward to hearing more and more about logging and chains and sawing. 
Thanks

Trbo


----------



## dbabcock

I don't get on here much anymore, but it's certainly nice seeing that Art's thread is still active after all these years. Here's a picture taken six years ago to the week when we all visited the Rupleys in Placerville and the Martins out in Sacramento, California. Pictured left to right are myself, Art, his wife Marita, Mike "Rupedoggy" Rupley's wife Caroline, Bobby "Rotax Robert" Andrews of Predator fame and John "Gypo Logger" Lambert.

Keep up the good work, Art!


----------



## Jacob J.

I just talked to Art last week, he's doing ok. There's a couple old boys in that picture I miss having around here.


----------



## Art Martin

Doug,
Nice to see that you still read the Arboristsite threads. When you, John, Robert and Dennis flew into Sacramento, we all had a good time at the Rupley's sawing. I wish we could it again. I really appreciate the pictures that you posted for me and all the work you went through getting them done. I guess you and I are still the only members of Arboristsite who have ever flown on the Concorde (SST). The cost for the three hour flight from London to New York was around $10,000. Now the plane is in a museum--never to fly again.
Best regards,
Art


----------



## Adkpk

The SST is the Air Space Museum on 42 St, NYC. I pass everyday on my way home from work. It's out at the end of the pier parked next to the "Intrepid" which is an aircraft carrier. I'll try to get a pic someday and post it on this thread. Good to hear form you Art. Hope Gypo and Rotex are staying out of trouble since they aren't hanging around here any more. You too Babcock must be proud of starting one of the best if not thee beat thread on this site.


----------



## Fish

Doug, Art, real good to see you all posting again, kind of domesticated 
around here anymore, no one gets too unruly.........


----------



## Cedarkerf

Jacob J. said:


> I just talked to Art last week, he's doing ok. There's a couple old boys in that picture I miss having around here.


Just talked to Rotax this after noon hes doin all right gettin ready for show season to start in May. Told him about the PNW get together but he has a log show that weekend.


----------



## Adkpk

*For Doug, Art, Gypo, Rotax, Dennis*



Art Martin said:


> Now the plane is in a museum--never to fly again.
> Best regards,
> Art



You guys posts rocked this site. 

As I stated there she is, at the Air Space Museum on 42st NYC. Sorry so far away but the parking is bs around there. It was a drive-by.


----------



## GASoline71

Cool to see you guys postin' a few words on here from time to time... 

Gary


----------



## RiverRat2

*Yeppppp!!!!!!!!*



Jacob J. said:


> I just talked to Art last week, he's doing ok. *There's a couple old boys in that picture I miss having around here*.



Me Too JJ!!!!!!!! :monkey: Me Too!!!!!


----------



## rupedoggy

Well memories are sometimes better that what really took place. I will say that my memories of that time are sweet. I don't think we can ever do it again because I don't have the burn barrel anymore! (That is a kind of inside joke that refers to Gypo disposing of some unusable under garments.) Mike


----------



## Jacob J.

rupedoggy said:


> Well memories are sometimes better that what really took place. I will say that my memories of that time are sweet. I don't think we can ever do it again because I don't have the burn barrel anymore! (That is a kind of inside joke that refers to Gypo disposing of some unusable under garments.) Mike



He never could hold his blackberry wine...


----------



## Art Martin

This is a picture of my friend, Kenin Dunnavin, who lives in Oregon for whom I have made racing chains for the past two seasons. He competes in Oregon, Washington and California. He wrote and said that he won 26 first places last year and for a total of 48 first places during the last two years.

Art Martin


----------



## THALL10326

This thread is by far one of if not the best thread I've ever seen on AS. Keep posting Art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ShoerFast

Art

Thanks for sharing your skills and stories! There fantastic!  

If I may ask?

Have you ever ran round filed chain for work chain? 

I tried to run square filed chain as work chain, but admit to my laziness and always seem to put on a round filed chain in the field. 

If you had a chain filing school, I think I would attend!


----------



## Brmorgan

THALL10326 said:


> This thread is by far one of if not the best thread I've ever seen on AS. Keep posting Art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No kidding... I just sat down and browsed the first few pages for a couple minutes, and suddenly I look at the clock and it's three hours later! I'm not one to sift through old threads by the hour, so I'd never seen this one before today.


----------



## RandyMac

This thread is great, the sawchain filing is fascinating, the photos are completely worth the time, thank you.
I was very fortunate to have learned the trade from men very much like Art Martin. Men who worked through the transitional period from handtools to what I think of as modern chainsaws. The master faller that I spent most of my time with, used the same big Homelites that Art used, never used anything else. The "old" guys had the knowledge and patience to direct my nearly lethal combination of youthful exuberance and developing talent. I carry with me a clear picture of the old man, sitting on a stump, smoking a dreadful cigar, watching me work. He always had a handfull of rocks, the second it looked like I was going to make a wrong move, he would bounce one off my tinhat, a signal to stop and await instructions, he never missed with those rocks or his advice.

I wish you a long life Art, you are indeed one of a kind.


----------



## hh1341

*Irons*



dbabcock said:


> Tools 1



The question was asked why those climbing irons were made that way. (page 6.....post 79)

I'd guess it's because it's easer for a blacksmith to fab them that way, as the gaffs are forged on the bitter end of the steel.

Art, let me add my thanks for your invaluable contribution to this site.

Carl


----------



## ShoerFast

hh1341 said:


> The question was asked why those climbing irons were made that way. (page 6.....post 79)
> 
> I'd guess it's because it's easer for a blacksmith to fab them that way, as the gaffs are forged on the bitter end of the steel.
> 
> Art, let me add my thanks for your invaluable contribution to this site.
> 
> Carl









I way thinking the same thing. 

Made by a good Smithy, but one that did not the equipment to forge-weld the spikes so the shanks could be on the inside, as that would be more stable. 

Taking it a step further, a guess....

If the Smithy did not have a coal forge, but did what he could with what he had (hardwood or wood charcoal without a lot of blower) those would be all that he could make. 

With at least a blower, hardwood or charcoal , the Smithy could have folded the steel back and created an inside spike.

It would be a good study to see those spikes!


----------



## hh1341

*Sticky*

Why is this not a Sticky?

It really is a "must read".

Standing by for Art's file'n instructions


----------



## PatrickIreland

I was going to say I wasted a day at work reading this thread - but not a bit of it was wasted!


----------



## hh1341

*In the bush*

Cheers to you Pat,

As I sit here sipping my Black Bush.

And to you too, Art 

Carl


----------



## 046

what a thread... 

good to see you post again!


----------



## dbabcock

*The Concorde circa 01/07.*

When I fly down the Hudson from up here in New Hampshire to circle the Statue of Liberty or fly up the south side of Long Island to the Hamptons where I figuratively blow the shingles off of Seinfeld's house, I always make it a point to fly over to the Manhattan side to see ground zero and the Intrepid. I took this admittedly sucky picture a couple of years ago when the Intrepid had been hauled away to drydock for maintenance.


----------



## Adkpk

dbabcock said:


> I took this admittedly sucky picture a couple of years ago when the Intrepid had been hauled away to drydock for maintenance.




What's so sucky about that? Looks pretty cool me. Also sounds pretty cool to be flying to LI. What are you flying? Don't tell me a broomstick.:greenchainsaw:


----------



## dbabcock

My Robinson R44 Raven II.


----------



## Gypo Logger

Nice pic Doug, have you done any longlining with it yet?
I had the opertunity of blazing trails for gold exploration up here and had at least 60 trips in this baby. The pilot would drop us off at treeline and pick us up at the bottom of the mountain.
John


----------



## Fish

Adkpk said:


> What's so sucky about that? Looks pretty cool me. Also sounds pretty cool to be flying to LI. What are you flying? Don't tell me a broomstick.:greenchainsaw:



He has always been quite picky when it comes to photography.


----------



## Gypo Logger

These guys were only allowed to use machetes, I had the chainsaw. Hhhhmmm.
John.
BTW, my pics seem a bit on the underexposed side, maybe it's just my screen.


----------



## Fish

All of the extra white in the backround throws off the light meter, it just
usually takes an average of light-vs.-dark.


----------



## 7oaks

Yukonsawman said:


> These guys were only allowed to use machetes, I had the chainsaw. Hhhhmmm.
> John.
> BTW, my pics seem a bit on the underexposed side, maybe it's just my screen.



That can be fixed. 






EDIT: Again I don't know why only the link appears so I'll try again...


----------



## Fish

7oaks said:


> That can be fixed.




The one on the left cannot be fixed.....


----------



## Adkpk

Fish said:


> The one on the left cannot be fixed.....



Hopefully he is.


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Yeah well wish in one hand, :censored: in the other, see which one fills up first.


----------



## Veteran

Thanks for all the pictures ,#91 looks like it was taken in Faulk next to Elk River?Learned to file cross cut with a red tang simmons kant file .


----------



## sILlogger

Veteran said:


> Thanks for all the pictures ,#91 looks like it was taken in Faulk next to Elk River?Learned to file cross cut with a red tang simmons kant file .



if youve been around for that long we need to start you a thread so you can tell some of your stories, because i know youve got some good ones.


----------



## Meadow Beaver

Filing crosscut saws must take a lot of _patience_, oh yeah that's a word in which I lack, patience.


----------



## pioneerguy600

MMFaller39 said:


> Filing crosscut saws must take a lot of _patience_, oh yeah that's a word in which I lack, patience.



About 2 hrs to do a 84" peg and raker.
Pioneerguy600


----------



## Gypo Logger

I think most of the posters on here are just sniveling for decoy chain. Lol
John


----------



## rupedoggy

Hey talk about trolling for chain John. Aren't you the guy that had Gayler and Martin send you chains to "test"??????


----------



## Fish

now,now.....


----------



## Gypo Logger

rupedoggy said:


> Hey talk about trolling for chain John. Aren't you the guy that had Gayler and Martin send you chains to "test"??????


 That was me Mike, Walt came slightly behind Dennis Cahoon.
John


----------



## dbabcock

Looks like a Bell 407, John. I have done some long line training in a Jet Ranger, but nothing compared to what the "heliloggers" do on a routine basis.
My best.


----------



## Kingsley

Thanks for taking your time and posting all of your interesting and helpful knowledge Mr. Martin. 

What were the accomodations like when you were logging?

Thanks again.
Marty


----------



## ckliff

*Bump*

FIL was over for Thanksgiving. Asked to see logging pics. Did a search and found the Art Martin thread. Awesome! Been around AS for 5 years & finally found the best thread!

So, is Art still around? Has anyone been keeping in touch?


----------



## ms290

all i want to know is when can i start my career with this industry? Im 16 and live in Oklahoma.


----------



## Adkpk

ms290 said:


> all i want to know is when can i start my career with this industry? Im 16 and live in Oklahoma.



Well let's see, in your signature you already own a chainsaw, I think your already did start. :greenchainsaw:


----------



## ms290

ya your probly rite. a buddy and me are some firewood guys that have got the rights to log out a 400+ acre lot. i have not seen it yet but the guy wants to see his cattle so i think we will get a few chords out the place.


----------



## AT sawyer

*Wow, what thread*

Mr. Martin,

If there is any chance you could post some details on filing crosscut saws, I would sure appreciate it. Beyond the Warren Miller book, this kind of info is pretty thin. As a self-taught filer, I'm sure I've developed some bad habits which are best removed by the voice of experience. 

Thanks for all the great advice, stories, and photos!


----------



## Analyst Man

*Hat’s off to dbabock for starting the thread on Art Martin.*

I stumbled on to this by accident last night and totally got lost and amazed in the fantastic pictures and the history of Art Martin. Great thread!!! Art, if you have any grandchildren, they must love to hear you tell your stories. I haven't read or looked at all the posts yet but I plan too.

opcorn:


----------



## GASoline71

Bump for the new kids 'round here. A great read on the ways of Art Martin... 

Gary


----------



## little possum

GASoline71 said:


> Bump for the new kids 'round here. A great read on the ways of Art Martin...
> 
> Gary



Thats a lot of reading Gary, but Ill get started, this may top any of the other junk on here lately


----------



## mweba

little possum said:


> Thats a lot of reading Gary, but Ill get started, this may top any of the other junk on here lately



Good call Gary. I have this and the Art Martin Videos thread saved in my favorites for easy access.


----------



## MacLaren

Great thread! Thank you for posting such great pictures.!!


----------



## Tzed250

.

A classic from way back...

.


----------



## GASoline71

little possum said:


> Thats a lot of reading Gary, but Ill get started, this may top any of the other junk on here lately



It is a lot of reading... A lot of the members that posted in it are no longer active, or banned. However... it is a great thread from the archives. Prolly the best one on the site.

Gary


----------



## jra1100

GASoline71 said:


> It is a lot of reading... A lot of the members that posted in it are no longer active, or banned. However... it is a great thread from the archives. Prolly the best one on the site.
> 
> Gary



:agree2:


----------



## Wolfcsm

Any chance Mr Martin is watching?


Hal


----------



## GASoline71

Art's last visit was back in July of this year. So he peeks in from time to time. 

Gary


----------



## Brian13

Another bump for this great thread! Just finished reading beginning to end. Thank you Art for sharing your knowledge and history, hope to see a few more posts from you.


----------



## RiverRat2

GASoline71 said:


> It is a lot of reading... A lot of the members that posted in it are no longer active, or banned. However... it is a great thread from the archives. Prolly the best one on the site.
> 
> Gary



You got that right Bro!!!!!


----------



## Gypo Logger

Oh Please! there are alot better loggers out there than Art Martin was. If you were any god damn good, your still doing it, never gave it up, or couldn't do it anymore due to phisical problems or they were just afraid of timber. How much did the OP really know about Art Martin?
All I got out of Art was a decoy race chain! I think Tommy Fales Sr., was one of the real loggers.
Regardless, there's alot of unsung heroes out there and a few hasbeens who are pumped up to be alot more than what they were.
If Art was any kind of a logger, he'd still be on here. Loggers do it all, timber fallers just work for someone else.
John


----------



## StihlyinEly

Yukonsawman said:


> Oh Please! there are alot better loggers out there than Art Martin was. If you were any god damn good, your still doing it, never gave it up, or couldn't do it anymore due to phisical problems or they were just afraid of timber. How much did the OP really know about Art Martin?
> All I got out of Art was a decoy race chain! I think Tommy Fales Sr., was one of the real loggers.
> Regardless, there's alot of unsung heroes out there and a few hasbeens who are pumped up to be alot more than what they were.
> If Art was any kind of a logger, he'd still be on here. Loggers do it all, timber fallers just work for someone else.
> John



When it comes to logging, I'm . . . opcorn:


----------



## GASoline71

Gary


----------



## mweba

Bump for the nooooooooooooobs


----------



## a_lopa

Is Dennis Cahoon still about?? I was at the Royal Melbourne show watching the woodchop on the weekend and the Tasmanian team were very good,seen David Foster there and it made me think of Dennis and his travels down under.

Hope your doing well Cahoon!


----------



## tdi-rick

a_lopa said:


> Is Dennis Cahoon still about?? I was at the Royal Melbourne show watching the woodchop on the weekend and the Tasmanian team were very good,seen David Foster there and it made me think of Dennis and his travels down under.
> 
> Hope your doing well Cahoon!



Yeah, DC drops in from time to time, I saw him in a thread a few weeks back.

He still posts regularly on RS


----------



## Rotax Robert

*Greatest Thread*

Just had to bump it back up top.


----------



## 24d

opcorn:


----------



## GASoline71

:boss:

Gary


----------



## blackoak

GASoline71 said:


> :boss:
> 
> Gary


Gary what was Art's favorite oil?.:biggrin: Merry Christmas!!


----------



## Lou

*Bump*

This is one of my favorite threads. Just bumping it back up for the Newbies.
Lou


----------



## mweba

Just some of my favorite pics out of this thread. Great read again.




























Many many more


----------



## Mastermind

Bump for the kiddies.....


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

Gypo Logger said:


> Oh Please! there are alot better loggers out there than Art Martin was. If you were any god damn good, your still doing it, never gave it up, or couldn't do it anymore due to phisical problems or they were just afraid of timber. How much did the OP really know about Art Martin?
> All I got out of Art was a decoy race chain! I think Tommy Fales Sr., was one of the real loggers.
> Regardless, there's alot of unsung heroes out there and a few hasbeens who are pumped up to be alot more than what they were.
> If Art was any kind of a logger, he'd still be on here. Loggers do it all, timber fallers just work for someone else.
> John



Hahahahahahahaha!.......Go Johnny Go!


----------



## rupedoggy

The fact that Art died a few days ago doesn't make your comment look very good Dennis. Delete it and I will delete this one. Mike


----------



## Wolfcsm

Is that true that he passed? Very sorry that he can't share his experience any longer.

Hal


----------



## 820wards

rupedoggy said:


> The fact that Art died a few days ago doesn't make your comment look very good Dennis. Delete it and I will delete this one. Mike



Mike,

Really sorry to hear that Art is gone. He's the guy I bought my 820 PowerBee motor from for my mill. A few years back I spent three days up at Art's home having him teach me how to hand sharpen my chains. In return I built him one of the chain sharpening mandrel's I make. He said it looked so nice he didn't want to use it and get it dirty. I know his daughters and grand children will surly miss him.

Thanks for letting us all know.

jerry-


----------



## Dennis Cahoon

rupedoggy said:


> The fact that Art died a few days ago doesn't make your comment look very good Dennis. Delete it and I will delete this one. Mike



We're all on the one way walk rupedoggy! My post stands!!!


----------



## tlandrum

Dennis Cahoon said:


> We're all on the one way walk rupedoggy! My post stands!!!



your absolutely right dennis ,we are all on that one way walk . but its how we walk amongst others and the paths we take that sets us apart from one another.


----------



## Gologit

tlandrum said:


> your absolutely right dennis ,we are all on that one way walk . but its how we walk amongst others and the paths we take that sets us apart from one another.



Well said.


----------



## Chris J.

I'm not finding any info on the internet about Art Martin being deceased, will be doing some additional research.

Terry, great post!


----------



## blsnelling

tlandrum said:


> your absolutely right dennis ,we are all on that one way walk . but its how we walk amongst others and the paths we take that sets us apart from one another.



Where's the quadruple Like button?


----------



## Metals406

RIP Mr. Martin.


----------



## Mastermind

For all you guys that have never seen this thread.......take the time to read it through.....:msp_thumbup:


----------



## Stihl 041S

Metals406 said:


> RIP Mr. Martin.



We are diminished......

Time for a wake.


----------



## ckliff

Who has a link to an obit?


----------



## ray benson

Can someone verify if this is Art?


In Memory of
Arthur Frederick Martin
November 2, 1928 - November 19, 2012
Obituary

Arthur (Art) Martin of Orangevale passed away on November 19, 2012 in Roseville Kaiser Hospital after a long illness. He was born in Fort Bragg, California on November 2, 1928. He had just celebrated his 84th birthday. His wife, and family were at his side. He is survived by his wife of 51 years, Marita, son David, son Gary (Paula) and daughter (Larry). He had eight grand children and three great-grand children. He was preceded in death by his parents, brother and grandson.

Art was a survivor. Thirty-seven years ago, he was diagnosed with leukemia and given a 10% chance to live from Friday to Monday. He survived five years of chemotherapy to compete in logging shows. He won California ax throw champion twice. 

He was a timber faller in Fort Bragg until his wife suggested that he look for a safer job. He took a test for fire departments around Northern California and was hired by the Campbell Fire Department. He was retired from there on a disability. He developed leukemia two years after retirement.

The family moved back to Fort Bragg. While still on chemotherapy, Art competed in the Labor Day Logging show. He won the All Around Title in three decades. He served on the Paul Bunyan Celebration Board for five years. Several articles were written in the Advocate News about his leukemia survival. One Labor Day, the San Francisco KPIX crew was in Fort Bragg and while filming the logging show, they were told Art's story. The program aired in 50 different stations throughout the country. He received calls from various people wanting to know the secret to his survival.

A private family service is to be held in a few weeks and a celebration of his life will be held in the spring. 
In lieu of flowers, remembrances can be made to your favorite charity.

Arthur Martin Obituary: View Obituary for Arthur Martin by Reichert's Funeral & Cremation Services, Citrus Heights, CA


----------



## Jacob J.

ray benson said:


> Can someone verify if this is Art?



That's him.


----------



## WKEND LUMBERJAK

:msp_ohmy::frown::frown:



God be with the family in their time of lose. this thread is well worth the time to read start to finish.


----------



## Chris J.

RIP, Art Martin.


----------



## Gologit

Jacob J. said:


> That's him.



Yup. R.I.P. He earned it.


----------



## Brian13

Rip Art Martin.


----------



## sachsmo

THE greatest thread on AS.

After reading Arts posts and seeing the selfless teaching and memories of his life and the people he touched, I feel truly unworthy.

What a great guy, a true Gentleman and a real class act.

My condolences to those who his life has touched.



And thank you for the link Fish, best 5 hours I have ever spent in front of a computer.


----------



## headsmess

*ohh...*

i just came across this, and there i was, about to make some wise comment about northern hemisphere timber, when i did the fast forward to here. 

my condolences. the few threads ive read, and the few pics seen, this art martin guy was an old timer with the old knowledge. the talk of scarfing with an axe to almost planed flatness rings pretty true. that was what you did. took pride in what you did. your skills.

what a shame to read the news i read. oh well. has to happen to us all one day.

the fact people awknowledge our passing is what counts. shows you were a somebody  


now, back to laughing! the first few pages of this thread just hammered home a small thought i had today...

HOW DID ANYONE POSSIBLY CLEAR AUSTRALIA? with an AXE?

we dont have oak, we dont have oregon pine. we have ironbark and cypress pine. we have 12 of the twenty hardest timbers. thats "commercially milled" hard, not "anything that grows and needs cutting down" hard, remember that.

and having tried splitting just an 8 inch length of unseasoned buloke this afternoon... my hands are still numb. it was only 6 inches round! it rings! it clangs! it does anything but split! its the hardest timber in the world!

as it is... its from a tree that fell around chrissy time. the lil baby 6 foot lengths, about 4feet diameter...my tractor wasnt lifting them by itself. needed 2 mates to give it some "assistance". at which it just did wheelies and the log rolled back off again! dragged em eventually. had to buy a new chain for the saw, mainly cus its last use seemed to be as a ditchwitch or a masonry saw or something similar... hmmmm?

i think im going to be buying a log splitter for the majority of this thing... i got 10 tonne to cut and split!

us kids have it easy. all too soft these days. bring back the cane! bring back rations! bring back the CHAIN GANGS! bring back necessity.


yeah 


RIP dude.

another lifetime perhaps.


cus right now id love some advice on sharpening chains to deal with cutting ironwoods...


----------



## locofrog

I started reading this today for the first time without noticing the start date. Awesome thread. Probably the best I've read on here or on any other site. While reading it, having to stop to go back to work ect, I shared what I was reading and some of the pics with friends and coworkers. The amount of information this guy had is amazing only second to the amount of life he lived. I am devastated to get to the end only to find out he's passed away. RIP Art Martin and thank you.

Loco


----------



## Bill G

Art was a gentleman and a scholar PERIOD. I am glad to have talked with him


----------



## husq2100

Gypo Logger said:


> Oh Please! there are alot better loggers out there than Art Martin was. If you were any god damn good, your still doing it, never gave it up, or couldn't do it anymore due to phisical problems or they were just afraid of timber. How much did the OP really know about Art Martin?
> All I got out of Art was a decoy race chain! I think Tommy Fales Sr., was one of the real loggers.
> Regardless, there's alot of unsung heroes out there and a few hasbeens who are pumped up to be alot more than what they were.
> If Art was any kind of a logger, he'd still be on here. Loggers do it all, timber fallers just work for someone else.
> John



Gypo, what is the difference between a logger and a timber faller?

and regarding your decoy race chain, is this the one that you started a thread about and had praise for? what turned out to be wrong with it?

not stirring the pot, just curious.


----------



## T27_Scrench

Was doing a search of the interwebs to find out if Ron Hartel is still around and wound up finding this thread. The pics posted early on are long gone, but what a gold mine of information. My search landed me on page 23 or something. Looked interesting so I started from the beginning. I have spent the last two evenings reading every single post. Possibly one of the best threads I've ever read on ANY forum. It's not often you can say that spending two evenings reading something on the internet until your eyes hurt was time well spent, but this certainly was. I couldn't read fast enough. Always hungry for more stories. More knowledge. Then I got to the obituary and damn near cried.

Created an account this evening just to say... Rest In Peace Mr. Martin. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Eric


----------



## Gologit

Yup, Art Martin was the real deal. No BS, no ego, just tons of knowledge that he was willing to share.


----------



## Mastermind

Yeah....this thread was epic. I sure miss those pics.


----------



## Philbert

Does anyone have any of the pictures saved that they can repost?
Videos were in this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=14132

I may have them saved somewhere.

Philbert


----------



## subhunter

I saved several when I saw this thread a few years back...


----------



## subhunter

more


----------



## subhunter

more


----------



## subhunter

thats all I got....


----------



## Mastermind

That is very cool. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Philbert

Thank you very much!

Philbert


----------



## redfin

Thank you Joseph. I was hoping to see some pics from this thread. Much appreciated.


----------



## Wolfcsm

Was there an issue with the videos being pulled? I have 15 of his videos saved.


----------



## Philbert

Wolfcsm said:


> Was there an issue with the videos being pulled? I have 15 of his videos saved.



I don't see them in that thread. I tried to reload them from the copies that I have, but the site would not accept that format.

See my recent post in that thread. 

Philbert


----------



## Wagnerwerks

Subscribed. Wish I had been here with all the pics.


----------



## 7oaks

Philbert...

If you'd like to send me some of the video files I can probably convert them to file types the site will recognize. 




Philbert said:


> I don't see them in that thread. I tried to reload them from the copies that I have, but the site would not accept that format.
> 
> See my recent post in that thread.
> 
> Philbert


----------



## HarleyT

Yeah, this "was" a good old thread....


----------



## bcaarms

Thanks for the effort to rebuild this. One of my favorites. I didn't realize the pics could just disappear, till one day they were gone.


----------



## john taliaferro

Its been to long


----------



## jakethesnake

Bump for a good read


----------



## fwgsaw

jakethesnake said:


> Bump for a good read


It's a very good read. Been 10 years since I've posted in this thread time sure fly's.


----------



## old guy

Art mentioned Ron Hartell and Danny Sailor, I saw both of these guys at the Hayward Wi. lumberjack festival in the early 60's.
Sailor would stand on his head and do the charlstan with spikes on atop the 100 ft. pole 10" diam., then he would flip his hat off and beat it to the ground, he would drop 20' & hook a spike, drop another 20' & hook the other spike.
Later he would change clothes & put on a cowboy hat & start up the pole, the anouncer would start hollering at him to get off the pole treating him like some unauthorised doofus, but no! no! I can do this, I saw how he did it, when he got to the top he stood up waving to the crowd, then lost his balance & fell off the pole.
No one noticed he had snapped a line to the guy cable to the top of the pole from about 250ft across the river and he slid on the short line all the way across the river.


----------



## rocketnorton

same sorta end to squamish days loggersports. 60th this yr.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Bump


----------



## James Miller

Between this thread and Randy macs Old Growth Spiders thread I've been reading a lot of interesting things lately.


----------



## AT sawyer

I feel fortunate to have followed this thread back when all the photos were still available. A good read now, but it's a shame we lost the accompanying imagery which brought this discussion to life.


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## Sepia

I've spent a couple hours reading this old thread tonight and I think it is worthy of a bump. These histories and experiences seem to be getting lost and to me they are both interesting and important.


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## jakethesnake

Good bump cj


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## Sepia

jakethesnake said:


> Good bump cj


I remember following along this thread when it was created. The old photos were simply fascinating to me. We can't imagine today the work those men did and the conditions they endured. The photos are gone from this thread, but I am sure they still exist somewhere - possibly with copies in multiple places. I was on dial-up at the time, so I couldn't download images in any kind of practical way, but I know some people claimed to be saving them, and likely many lurkers saved them as well. It sure would be nice to have them brought back into this thread.

edit: I just discovered that some of the old photos have been re-posted on page 35 of this thread


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## Dennisthemenace

Just found this fantastic thread, thanks fellas


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