# Stumpgrinding wavier



## bushinspector (Aug 30, 2010)

Well today was NOT a good day. Our job was to remove a small pine (20 feet tall), and grind the stump. Everything went well until I was grinding the stump and cut the buried electric cable going to the house. The wire came from underneath the driveway, (it was only 8 inches deep) and it was in a location that you would not expect a wire to be buried at.

It looked like someone built the house and forgot where the incoming wire was at and planted the pine within four inches of the line.

To make a long story short does anyone who grind stumps do you get a signed wavier from the home owner? If you do, what verbage do you include?

No I did not get shocked but want to learn from this mistake and keep it happening again in the future.


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## Curbside (Aug 30, 2010)

In our area if your going deeper than 6" your supposed to call the utilites for marking. If you cut a line and they haven't been out you are liable for the line. Doesn't matter if you have the resident sign anything.


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## flushcut (Aug 30, 2010)

A call to diggers hot line would have made your day a lot easier and less costly. You are luckey to be alive!


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## Frank Boyer (Aug 31, 2010)

In CA you are liable for damages and up to a $50K fine for not getting a locate. A waiver doesn't change your liability.


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## bushinspector (Aug 31, 2010)

*Not in Oklahoma*

Utilities in Oklahoma (the ones in this area) will only mark the lines UP TO your property line but will not cross over. I am very well aware of calling the hot line when you are digging out in the country but does no good when in the city limits. Each homeower is on their own.


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## flushcut (Aug 31, 2010)

bushinspector said:


> Utilities in Oklahoma (the ones in this area) will only mark the lines UP TO your property line but will not cross over. I am very well aware of calling the hot line when you are digging out in the country but does no good when in the city limits. Each homeower is on their own.



Call Okie 1-800-522-6543


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## bushinspector (Sep 1, 2010)

flushcut said:


> Call Okie 1-800-522-6543



Am very aware of calling Okie but will not come on private property!


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## Walt41 (Sep 1, 2010)

Eight inches deep! That is a WTF if I ever heard one, we go at least 36 and then bury a double stran of caution tape at about 12, just in case someone gets shovel happy at a later date.


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## Curbside (Sep 1, 2010)

Not sure what the point of marking the lines are then if they aren't going to mark to their meters. Here in Manitoba Utilities mark all of the lines up to their meters. If homeowner puts some other kind of lines in after that then that would be the homeowners issue but otherwise everything is marked.


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## bushinspector (Sep 1, 2010)

The meter was at the pole about 50 yards away. 

Do they make some sort of a detector that will sniff out alummium wiring? What about the cost?


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## flushcut (Sep 1, 2010)

bushinspector said:


> The meter was at the pole about 50 yards away.
> 
> Do they make some sort of a detector that will sniff out alummium wiring? What about the cost?



They do if I could do a link I would but heres this. There is a catalogue called Ben Meadows and they carrie a detector that will find energized lines to two meters for radio and three meters for power and generator lines. It is the cheapest one they had $895.00 and the really spendy ones are $2600.00.
benmeadows.com Item #JF0-159009 Leica DIGICAT 100 Locator.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Sep 2, 2010)

Walt41 said:


> Eight inches deep! That is a WTF if I ever heard one, we go at least 36 and then bury a double stran of caution tape at about 12, just in case someone gets shovel happy at a later date.



Aw, that makes too much sense! Where's the fun in that?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Sep 2, 2010)

bushinspector said:


> Do they make some sort of a detector that will sniff out alummium wiring? What about the cost?





Hmmmm. If a standard consumer grade metal detector will find a nickel at that depth (and they WILL), I don't think you should have any trouble with finding power lines.


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## Walt41 (Sep 2, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Aw, that makes too much sense! Where's the fun in that?



No fun at all but I don't want some silly homeowner ending up dead. I even once lobbied unsuccessfully to get my town to require buried utilities to be noted on surveys, guess it was too logical for them.


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## howel07264 (Sep 3, 2010)

Frank Boyer said:


> In CA you are liable for damages and up to a $50K fine for not getting a locate. A waiver doesn't change your liability.


Man, glad I'm not working in CA. They are getting crazy with all the penalties.,fees,taxes and regulations. I would pack my ass and get out of there asap!


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## RVALUE (Sep 3, 2010)

I was pulling out about a thirty foot pine, root ball and all, on a university campus. I got a funny feeling just as I tightened the cable. I called the city electric company:

"No, no electric over there, but there is a major fiber optic cable in the area."

Got it located, and it the tree had been planted directly over it, and would have pulled it out.........


Whew.......


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## bushinspector (Sep 5, 2010)

So back to the waiver, Would it be any good if the responsbility was the homeower? At least it would make me feel better knowing I asked. Just would like to get away from the danger and the cost of replacement of the underground lines of all types.


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 5, 2010)

Check with a lawyer in your state. In CA you need a locate first and good insurance. I did hillside excavating, underground and drilling for 20 years. You will take out a few electrical, gas and communication lines. 

I started a job on a friends 80 acre ranch in the hills. About 30 minutes after I unloaded the tractor a plane was circling overhead. Shortly after the plane arrived a truck pulled up and the driver asked what I was doing. There was a 10" high pressure gas line that the property owner didn't know about. If you break a high pressure gas line you most likely will be fried before you know what you hit.


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## Mike Van (Sep 9, 2010)

Here in Ct. a waiver and a piece of toilet paper would be about the same - You need to call before you dig [grind, whatever] It's free, the utilitys pay for it. Call Before You Dig
Please call 811 48 hours in advance. You are covered then, If you don't call, the repairs & fine can be staggering. Not to mention the saftey aspect to you, your machine, crew, whatever. If the locating company misses something, it's their butt, not yours.


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## peregordusmc (Sep 13, 2010)

So what was the end result? Did you have to pay for the damage? What was the final bill? Very glad you have posted this because i would have never thought about this and in fact im working on a red maple removal and will have to grind the stump out and will be looking into this before i grind.


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## Don't-B-Stumped (Sep 13, 2010)

here in south fl. its the law that you call 811 before any grinding job at any depth. if you touch the dirt they consider you an excavator. the fine is $250.00 or more for not getting the marks. it takes up to 48 hrs but i guess its better than having to call your insurance agent and make a claim. here we have water,power,cable tv,phone, rarely gas.


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 13, 2010)

The high pressure gas line that ruptured in San Bruno, CA is an extreme example of why you get a locate first. A sewer line was relpaced in the spot that blew a couple of years ago. A D8 hit a high pressure gas line in Cupetino, CA about 15 years ago and the blast/fire ball fried the operator before he could get off the tractor. The gas ignites/explodes when it hits the air.


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## Mowingman (Sep 13, 2010)

Not true. The gas can flow out into the air for hours, or days without igniting. It takes an ignition source like a spark or open flame to ignite it. 
I have a friend who owned a backhoe business for years. He worked mainly on utility installation projects, and, has hit many gas lines with his backhoe over the years. He would IMMEDIATLY shut down the machine, then calmly wait for the gas company to shut off the flow.
Of course,the longer the gas flows out into the air, the greater the chance of it spreading out, and coming into contact with a source of ignition.
If the gas gets pulled into the running engine, then an explosion can occur almost immediatly. Same thing if the digging machine creats a spark when rupturing the gas line.
Jeff

QUOTE=Frank Boyer;2445967]The gas ignites/explodes when it hits the air.[/QUOTE]


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 13, 2010)

Low pressure gas is very different than high pressure gas. If you hit low pressure gas remove all sources of ignition and cover with a wet towel/rag/blanket. High pressure gas will self ignite and go boom.






Mowingman said:


> Not true. The gas can flow out into the air for hours, or days without igniting. It takes an ignition source like a spark or open flame to ignite it.
> I have a friend who owned a backhoe business for years. He worked mainly on utility installation projects, and, has hit many gas lines with his backhoe over the years. He would IMMEDIATLY shut down the machine, then calmly wait for the gas company to shut off the flow.
> Of course,the longer the gas flows out into the air, the greater the chance of it spreading out, and coming into contact with a source of ignition.
> If the gas gets pulled into the running engine, then an explosion can occur almost immediatly. Same thing if the digging machine creats a spark when rupturing the gas line.
> ...


[/QUOTE]


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## Mowingman (Sep 14, 2010)

We are not talking about high pressure gas lines here. We are talking about the lines you wold normally encounter while grinding a stump. I have never seen a high pressure gas line buried in the top 24" of a lawn.
Jeff


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 14, 2010)

Get your locate first. Some of these lines have been in for 50 plus years and right of ways, lot lines, and finish grades have changed dramatically. What used to be an open field is now suburbia. That 80 acre ranch hillside that I was working on, is now 2-5 acre ranchetts with lawns. The 30" high pressure line that blew in San Bruno was less than 3' deep in the suburbs.
I had a friend that pulled a fence post straight out with the wench on his drill rig. The concrete in the bottom brought out a fiber optic line with it. Get a locate first.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Sep 14, 2010)

Frank Boyer said:


> I had a friend that pulled a fence post straight out with the *wench *on his drill rig.




Okay, okay, let's get this straight:



This is a *wench*:









Nice, one, too! 




*THIS *is a w*i*nch!









Everybody clear on the difference? Uh, if you're not, I don't know what to say, except, uh, keep your distance, okay?


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 14, 2010)

Would this be the plurl of wench?


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## Steve-Maine (Sep 16, 2010)

*Stump grinding Wavier.*

Here in Maine we are required to call DIG SAFE for any digging, even a mail box post. There is no charge. I never grind stumps without calling them. They both public and private properties. My insurance policy doesn't cover illegal operations. My laywer explained that grinding without notify DIG SAFE is an illegal act and no insurance coverage. You might not think anything is buried but never know. Either Call Dig Safe or don't grind stumps.


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## Hoosier (Sep 16, 2010)

Im sorry but I just cant accept that the locate service will not go onto private property? That makes no sense, why have a locate company then...for guys that dig in the highway median?


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## Don't-B-Stumped (Sep 17, 2010)

they go on private property here. how else are they going to locate? every stump we do must be checked. at first it seemed like a pita but you get used to the process and its no big deal. plus you don't have to worry about getting fined for not doing it or worse paying for some potentially big damage.
i gotta admit i have cut phone and cable lines because you never know where they run those things and they're only just below the grass so you're gonna get them even doing a shallow grind.


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## stump-dude (Sep 28, 2010)

i did a job about 3 years ago for $150 and ended up hitting a gas main that was 4" under the ground just in front of the stump, luckily my machine is remote controlled because as i saw the tree next to the stump blowing in the gas wind i ran for my life and then slowly drove my machine out of the danger, luckily no ignition. called 911 and had the fire department block off all the roads surrounding the property. the customer was inside, i called her right after i got off the phone with 911 and let her know what was going on, she was really worried because she could smell the gas inside her house, but couldnt get outside... had to pay to get everything repaired which cost aprox $1700. learnt my lesson and bought a rigid m-scope, now i use that as a side source of income as i trace gas, water, electrical lines for excavation companies, plumbers, etc. to get set up with the underground utility locating equip cost about $2500 but its a great competitive advantage when advertising that you look for utilities where others might not.


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## Don't-B-Stumped (Sep 28, 2010)

you are a very lucky dude that there wasn't a spark. very few gas lines here in south florida. although some people have propane tanks buried in their yards to service pool heaters. as i said before i like the idea of calling the no cuts people now.


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## Curbside (Sep 28, 2010)

Wow 4" sounds pretty close to negligence on the part of the gas company unless someone regraded the area. A garden roto-tiller would strike the pipe.


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## Frank Boyer (Sep 29, 2010)

Most areas get regradded. The roses over the gas lines, fiber optic lines, phone lines, electric lines, etc all look just like the roses with nothing under them. Get a locate!!!


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## sawkiller (Sep 30, 2010)

We hit a pressure gas line in mechanicsburg Indiana about 12 years ago when i did road construction. It was missed in the locates and only 4" below the soil. Luckily I had pictures before the accident and the paint for the gas line was still on the ground 10' from where we were digging. No explosion and it was a 450 psi line. You could hear the wistling for about a half a mile and everyone came out to see what the noise was and were promptly evacuated. 

So always get pics and most locates are only gauranteed to within 3' or more if you are close find out what they gaurantee.


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## lmcc4088 (Jan 8, 2012)

*Wire, cable and water line locating.*

Stumpgrinding, concerning locating electrical wiring, TV cables, water lines, irrigation lines, there is a simple solution, I've used for 10 years, and it;s fool proof.
I use wire devining rods, home made, here's how:

For locating water lines, water supply, irrigation, ect. Take a steel coat hanger, straighten, cut to an 18 inch overall straight length, bend at a 90 degree angle in the center, 9 inches each leg. Make two of these. Hold at waist level, with wires held loosy in each hand about 8 inches apart, with the forward pointing wires at a horizonal position. The wires should be shaped like a "L". Hold the verticle ,"handles", loosy, allowing the wires to pivot easily.
Walk slowly across the ground around the stump to be ground. The horizonal wires, pointing directly forward will cross like an X when you cross a water line, any water line, supply or irrigation. You can try this anywhere, mabe in your own yard, practice makes perfect. It has never failed me in 10 years. 

To locate electrical , or underground cables, use brazing rods, with flux removed, I use a wire brush on a bench grinder for this, cut these at 20 inches, bend at a 90 degree bend, with bend at 8 and 12 inch, using the 8 inch legs for horizonal forward pointers, held 8 inches apart. They will cross when they cross a wire of any kind.
This method will work, never fails, and at times when commercial locating services have markedthe utility runs, I find their mistakes, or wrong markings, so I double check them with my system, which never is wrong, try this at home, practice makes perfect, haven't hit anything in years, Oh!, the steel water line finder,( steel coat hanger), will find PVC also.


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## dts99 (Jan 8, 2012)

just some insparation to call whoever it takes to find whats below the ground, i worked for the city and a guy cliped a fiber optics going down a pole with a grader, i heard it was like $7000 parts $26,000 labor, and nobody even got hurt


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## uglydukwling (Jan 16, 2012)

It sounds like I should call for a locate before I plow my fields (especially if I'm using a subsoiler).

Actually, that's not so far-fetched. When I moved in, about 40 years ago, The gas meter was at the property line and the pipe to the house ran across the surface of the front lawn. It wasn't bright yellow, just rusty old steel pipe. I don't know how long it had been there. It was visible then, but not any more. I planted trees on the lawn and stopped mowing, and grass and leaves have built up enough new soil to hide it. Fortunately it isn't in use any more. A few years ago, the gas company decided to relocate the gas meters from the property line to the front wall of the houses. The new gas line is buried, but the foreman wasn't surprised at the location of the old one. Apparently it was common in the old days to lay them on the surface.

There are also gas wells in the area. Most of them are depleted and abandoned, but there's deeper exploration going on now so there may be more in the future. In one of my fencerows, there are remnants of a steel pipe from an old well leading to the collector pipe that runs along the road. It also runs along the surface, except where it has been covered by tree roots, soil, etc. I don't know how deep, if at all, it was buried in the field from the well to the fencerow.

There was an old unmarked, unrecorded well in a corner of a field near here where someone decided to build a house. It had been cut off deep enough so the excavator didn't hit it but after the house was built, gas was detected in it. The outcome of the litigation was that the gas company bought the house and moved it off-site. I'm not sure what compensation the owner got for not being able to build. Now, where there used to be a house, there's a neat little fenced enclosure with a wellhead in it.


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## NCgrinder (Jan 25, 2012)

Here's my $0.02 worth of info.. I always get the homeowner to call 811/ULOCO/whatever . That way when there's some stranger out in his yard spraying yellow/red/blue all over his beloved grass, they already know whats going on.. I had a customer call me raisin' hell after I had called for a locate on his property..Guess he thought they could locate and not paint the ground!!!
So now ,when I estimate the job , I have them call ...but ,I learned to call them back and find out the progress...seems a lot of them "forgot " to call...
All this slows things down ,but you're the one ultimately responsible if you cut a utility


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## homemade (Jan 28, 2012)

Ok, first with my story, Farmer didn't call for locates while placing fence posts for new pasture. Drove a metal T'post threw a transmission fiber (basically a vary large fiber optic cable for the tv company). The party responsible for the damage usually has to pay a fine for every minute that the line is down. (He had to pay $1000/min plus all repair costs) Long story short, had to sell the farm and everything he owned and went bankrupt.

I am a linemen in Wisconsin and we do all our own locating anywhere requested. 811 is becoming more common nation wide for a locating service. Digitrac and dinatel are two locators that we use. Ditch which also makes a locator. 

Using witching sticks or divining rods are witch craft. Some days I can get it work with locating clay tile in a field but also walked over a bridge with flowing water underneath and no noticeable change in the sticks.


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## juststumps (Jan 30, 2012)

*811*

This is what could happen if you don't get a mark out . The county just rebuilt the road and realigned my street . After the first winter , the intersection , that never had a problem , flooded and froze . So they decided to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with , until the fixed it . They tried a gain . OOOOPS !!!!! They hit a 6 inch gas main . We were out of power for 2 days and phone and cable for 4 days , as it burnt the wires off the poles. 

Gas Main Rupture with Fire - Franklin Twp. NJ - 4/19/10 - YouTube


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## juststumps (Jan 30, 2012)

NCgrinder said:


> Here's my $0.02 worth of info.. I always get the homeowner to call 811/ULOCO/whatever . That way when there's some stranger out in his yard spraying yellow/red/blue all over his beloved grass, they already know whats going on.. I had a customer call me raisin' hell after I had called for a locate on his property..Guess he thought they could locate and not paint the ground!!!
> So now ,when I estimate the job , I have them call ...but ,I learned to call them back and find out the progress...seems a lot of them "forgot " to call...
> All this slows things down ,but you're the one ultimately responsible if you cut a utility



You are the one who should call !!!!!! You are the one doing the work !!!! You hit something that was mis marked , you are BEAT ,because you didn't call !!!! 

My earlier post . the road was mis marked ... They hit the gas line 15 FT from where the YELLOW LINES , were painted on the black top .


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