# CEU Ripoff



## lxt (Oct 16, 2009)

Well here I am a CA, obtained it earlier this year! as I read arborist news and look through the 2010 catalog looking at all the educational material I noticed something!

CEU`s are a ripoff, why? well I can buy a book with the little acorn symbol for $39.95 wich will give me 3 whole ceu`s maybe 3.5 or 4 if im lucky, the arborist magazine gives me a whole 1ceu for answering 20 questions!

the point? if the initial exam of 200 multiple choice questions was worth certification, then why in order to obtain 30 ceu`s over 3 yrs will i need to answer 10 times that many!

literally...1 ceu for 20 questions in arborist magazine, I would need to answer 600 questions to satisfy my ceu requirement, worse yet the compendium series....figure that out!!! anywhere from 10 - 20 past articles with atleast 15 - 20 questions each....roughly 350 to 400 plus questions gaining you 4 - 8 ceu`s

how can this be, better yet how ridiculous!!!! 30 Ceu`s the way the ISA does it should get you 6yrs or more!! Im thinking it would be better to just retake the whole test again, it wasnt that hard!

BTW, I do agree the additional certs they`re coming up with are ridiculous, Clearance & I spoke of this years ago along with them being a money grab, boy we were unpopular then uhh? now people are seeing they are just like a union.....worse even! & TCIA.....dont even get me started with the crap they`re promoting.....accredited business.....please!! CTSP...Joke!

It really saddens me to know that they`re so desperate that they`ll conjure up anything as a cert. & Seer I hope you dont even try to back this garbage or the bolts from the blue.....might be lightening headed for you! any way to take a trade with good pay potential & undermine it with mandatory meaningless certs. and Seer......cmon groundworker certification, LOL requirements 40 hrs rake & broom time! 

WORSE YET...........most including myself are members of this crap!! maybe if we all quit it would send them a message!

oh BTW.............CEU`S are a ripoff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LXT................


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## capetrees (Oct 16, 2009)

I completely agree although I'm not an arborist nor a memner of TCIA or ISA. I need CEU's in a different proffession and they are a joke. Go to a covention and get the years needed CEU's. No tests, just attend for two days. In a profession that doesn't require an ISA or TCIA membership and seeing that most people don't even know what it's about when they hire you, why do you need them? Once you know the material, why can the assoc. (or in my case the state) continue to require you to continue to pay for what you already know? Do any of us continue to pay our college alma maters to maintain the fact that we went to school and received a degree? How many new ways to cut down a tree are out there? I don't agree with CEU's. I know they are intened to inform you of new information in the field but if you tend to stay in one area of expertise, why do you need to know more if over the years you've pretty much obtained all you need to know?


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 16, 2009)

lxt said:


> Well here I am a CA, obtained it earlier this year! as I read arborist news and look through the 2010 catalog looking at all the educational material I noticed something!
> 
> CEU`s are a ripoff, why? well I can buy a book with the little acorn symbol for $39.95 wich will give me 3 whole ceu`s maybe 3.5 or 4 if im lucky, the arborist magazine gives me a whole 1ceu for answering 20 questions!
> 
> ...



Ya see lxt, I was thinking the opposite, just today actually. Don't get me wrong I'm in no mood to argue but I like the idea of having to learn more in order to keep your cert. I got a pamphlet from a green industry show in Rochester this coming January in the mail today. Some of the classes looked pretty neat but I was hmmin and hawinn about the price tag and the time of year till I saw that they gave ceu's for attendance. I got right on the phone to my certified partner and asked if he was down, seeing as he needs to fill 29 ceu's in the next 2 years and he was all about it. Good info and it helps keep his cert. I look at it as the ISA kinda forcing you to do stuff you probably should be doing already. I don't think everything is right with them by any means, and I'm certain a majority of their motivation is monetary, but forcing a CA to continue his education isn't necessarily a bad thing IMO.


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## treeseer (Oct 16, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Y I got a pamphlet from a green industry show in Rochester this coming January in the mail today. Some of the classes looked pretty neat but I was hmmin and hawinn about the price tag and the time of year till I saw that they gave ceu's for attendance. .


Go to Boston instead for NEGrows--that'll be a show! 

lxt if you are getting sticker shock then shop around, and keep testing on the ceu articles that is 18 of the 30 you need right there $0. Yer math needs help but i aint got the time. :monkey:

btw accredited companies and ctsp are good certs, if you make the effort.
ask those who have made the effort; they are glad they did.

yeah i can back bolts from the blue--do you have anything coherent to say?


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## zopi (Oct 16, 2009)

Any question you ask, which begins with "why do they" or "why don't they"

the answer is..money...

In the lumber industry, there is no law rule or other impediment to me, as a sawyer inspecting grading and stamping my own lumber, except smoke and mirrors put up by big industry...and all because "they" (yeah, I know.) 
are protecting their profits...

think a bit and it's not too hard to expand that line of logic to university education...but it is easy to oversimplify...

The best school is a log...with a student on one end and a teacher on the other...often in our case..literally.


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## treevet (Oct 16, 2009)

http://on-line-seminars.com

FREE credits/seminars.....now no excuse or complaints in learning high quality up to date info.

ISA certif. like wine gets better with the years. 

But if you tire of this the books and compendiums and vids. available thru the ISA are ALL great as I have spent tons of money on them and find NONE of them lacking in quality. You don't have to buy them from the ISA but they give you a discount.

Not bad being to use the credential sometimes as well. Many properties you won't even step on if you do not have it.

PS. Congrats on certifying LXT don't put it down til you've worn it for a while

PPS. Once you've been in it for a while.....how hard are take downs anyway...yawn.


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## beastmaster (Oct 17, 2009)

I've procrastinated, and now have to get all my CEU's in the next 6 months. Works been a little slow this last year and the money is going to hurt a little. I plan on buying the little book sets they sell at an inflated price and start kicking them out. I had to give up my ISA membership as I didn't have the extra money so I don't receive the magazine anymore so no free CEU's. Does any one know if I can get CEU's for college courses?(tree related) I like the fact you need CEU's ,thats a good thing, we need to keep learning, but their motivation seem more money orientated then promoting education. Just my opinion.


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## treeseer (Oct 17, 2009)

check the website; college courses get a lot; in many cases too much imo but that is another topic.

i agree with treevet but in the online forum the quality really varies but it is a free resource and there are less infomercials than before.

beast if you knew what went into those books you may not call their value inflated.


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## beastmaster (Oct 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> http://on-line-seminars.com
> 
> FREE credits/seminars.....now no excuse or complaints in learning high quality up to date info.
> 
> Treevet, thanks a lot for that site. I'll definitely make use of it. Well worth checking out


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## treevet (Oct 17, 2009)

beastmaster said:


> treevet said:
> 
> 
> > http://on-line-seminars.com
> ...


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## sharkfin12us (Oct 17, 2009)

*Isa*



TreeCo said:


> I was a certified arborist for 18 years and just dropped out of the program this past August. I'm no longer a member of the ISA either.
> 
> Keep sending in the money!
> 
> ...



I had some one from ISA call me during winter time i think.Asking me questions on what might make me interested in joining ISA membership.I kept telling him point blank money situation.He kept probing me with different questions what might make me more interested in staying a member.It was really annoying becasuse after repeating the same statement to this person that it is money situation.That is 125.00 dollars they are not getting.I mean i talked to him for about 15 minutes and he asked me all these questiongs.Just want your money.I guess there are alot of x members now because of the recession.


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## Shaun Bowler (Oct 17, 2009)

If we do not start to send letters to the ISA this situation will only get worse.
I will commit right now to send a letter-via USPS to the ISA to bring this BS to their attension.
I hope everyone else can commit to "just one letter."


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## capetrees (Oct 17, 2009)

Then who needs them?


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## treeseer (Oct 17, 2009)

Shaun Bowler said:


> I will commit right now to send a letter-via USPS to the ISA to bring this BS to their attension.


What positive suggestion would you make? Aside from nominate Sunrise for Cert committee. opcorn:


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## treevet (Oct 17, 2009)

capetrees said:


> Then who needs them?



I have been a member since 1970. Learned a lot thru their mags over the years. Where else you gonna get credentials. I have had complaints as well but it is the only (and the first) game in town. What is the big complaint here? They charge $120 a year or whatever. Ya gotta spend money to make money.

They, like everything else, are likely working with a diminishing staff. Without them what would we have. Go to the door and tell the HO....."I am real good and I know lots of stuff".


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## Shaun Bowler (Oct 17, 2009)

I would tell them they are losing their original base.
The reasons we put in our blood, sweat, and tears to develop credibility.
When I first started out-1977 we were like Carnival Workers.
Smoke,Smoke, Beers and Coke!
I Thank God I stuck with this profession through its evolution.
Nevertheless, it seems,the people we send our dues to have now become the representitives of the companies we buy our tools from.
The companies we but our trucks, chippers, insurance, from.
Has anyone ever asked what those people what their pay/benefit package is?
That should be in the ISA information we receive yearly.
It is a benefit to us all to have this ISA base.
However, I believe it has become a entity, all its own.
The peole who are employed their need to show us where the money we send them is going.
Every day in the media we see more and more people(Corparations) use money in ways it was not intended for.
They are going to jail. 
BOSTON TEA PARTY ANYONE?:greenchainsaw:


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 17, 2009)

treeseer said:


> What positive suggestion would you make? Aside from nominate Sunrise for Cert committee. opcorn:



I would accept, and I would kick some :censored: at ISA. I was once chosen to be on a textbook selection committee, down here in Austin,Texas. If you know the politics down here, as it applies to state-chosen textbooks, then you know what bs it truly is. I lasted one day before I told off the chairperson, as the rest of the committee looked on in shock, and then I walked out, never to return.

In regards to CEU's: They are well worth it, as I see it. I learn a great deal from taking those little magazine quizzes, going to seminars, taking classes, etc.

Learning is my greatest joy in life, besides a few other select activities :hmm3grin2orange:, and when I learn about developments relevant to my chosen profession, I benefit as do my clients and their trees.

Once you get into the CEU swing of things, you will find that it's easy to keep them coming in. I also need CEU's, yearly, for my pesticide license, and that's no problem, either. The key is to NOT wait until the last minute to try and get them. I have around sixty on my AU account at ISA, and the drag there is that they don't carry over when I renew this December. That will be about twenty-four gone down the tube but, again, it was to my benefit to learn whatever I did while acquiring them. I will take a class with ACRT most likely in '10. I believe it's about 42 CEU's for five days. Yeah, it will set me back about a G, after travel, hotel and class cost, but so what? If you are sweating bucks so close that you worry about a grand, maybe you're in the wrong business or need a good class on holding to a budget.


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## treevet (Oct 17, 2009)

Great post Sunrise. I used to follow Al Shigo all over the country to get my CEU's before he passed. What is a grand anyway. That can be made in less than a day.


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## Koa Man (Oct 18, 2009)

I let my CA expire at the end of 2004 after 12 years. My customers don't care whether or not I am or am not a CA. I never "lost" a job because I am no longer a CA. 

What irritated me about the whole CA thing was that people who never climbed a tree, much less pruned one, was being certified simply because they passed a written test. It is like someone saying I am a certified welder. I never actually welded anything but I read all the books. Would you trust that person to weld you a critical piece, like a porta wrap or life support equipment?

And don't get me started on landscape architects who tell me how to prune a tree.


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

Koa Man said:


> What irritated me about the whole CA thing was that people who never climbed a tree, much less pruned one, was being certified simply because they passed a written test. It is like someone saying I am a certified welder. I never actually welded anything but I read all the books. Would you trust that person to weld you a critical piece, like a porta wrap or life support equipment?



Exactly my beef, years ago, on this site.  Well said.


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## jrietkerk (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm curious why lxt got certified with ISA? The CEU thing couldn't have been new to you. . is it for work or to get contracts or on a dare?


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## ckliff (Oct 18, 2009)

Well, this has all been very interesting.

About sweating a G. Yeah, some of us do sweat it. I won't cry my sob story to you , but everyone has their own ups & downs in life. Hope you enjoy the week of CEUs, I'm envious. Really. 

I used to be an xray tech. Had to get CEUs to keep cert. No problem. Then idiots in the state group pushed for state licensure. It passed, more money, more hassles... It may very well happen with arboriculture. Don't be surprised when someday ISA or TCIA push for mandated federal or states licensing.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

> What irritated me about the whole CA thing was that people who never climbed a tree, much less pruned one, was being certified simply because they passed a written test.



And conversely what should irk you as well is someone climbing a tree and more so pruning one that doesn't know enough about trees to pass a simple test.

Isn't this what we call a hack.


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## capetrees (Oct 18, 2009)

Koa Man said:


> I let my CA expire at the end of 2004 after 12 years. My customers don't care whether or not I am or am not a CA. I never "lost" a job because I am no longer a CA.
> 
> What irritated me about the whole CA thing was that people who never climbed a tree, much less pruned one, was being certified simply because they passed a written test. It is like someone saying I am a certified welder. I never actually welded anything but I read all the books. Would you trust that person to weld you a critical piece, like a porta wrap or life support equipment?
> 
> And don't get me started on landscape architects who tell me how to prune a tree.



:jawdrop:

My exact feelings. You know what you're doing, why pay someone else to give you a certification that nobody understands or even knows exists? 

And the landscape architects thing?


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## Toddppm (Oct 18, 2009)

I guess it all depends on your area and how much the public knows about the ISA and Cert. Arb's. Around here anybody that does a little bit of research themselves usually ends up getting info from the extension office and then referred to the ISA sites. The extension people are very invloved with the colleges, landscape and tree associations. Works good. Most of the towns and Counties here also do this.
Maybe the smaller areas just don't have the resources for this? But even here in a large metro area the staff is very small.

The ISA can't do it all, the info is there for those who look for it.

The last 2 times I was up for renewal, I was short credits, should have learned the first time
Last Dec., I was short about 22 credits, 3 years came up fast! Had to get an extension. Not in the budget but I bought some of the compendia books(very good BTW), took some of the online tests and a couple magazine articles and got it done.

I don't understand all the negative comments about the ISA, they can only do so much with what they have and I think they do a good job with their resources. Seems like a lot of volunteer hours are put in to help out too and the staff is very small from what I've seen.


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## Toddppm (Oct 18, 2009)

Why is there never any complaining about the TCIA/NAA? 

Do they do a better job or not as relevant?


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## lxt (Oct 18, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Go to Boston instead for NEGrows--that'll be a show!
> 
> lxt if you are getting sticker shock then shop around, and keep testing on the ceu articles that is 18 of the 30 you need right there $0. Yer math needs help but i aint got the time. :monkey:
> 
> ...




$0....not the point guy! re-read the post!! I dont mind continuing education but not when it is 2x, 3x the amount needed over & above the initial exam to obtain the credential in the first place! Sorry.........money grab!

Accredited & CTSP.............are you goofy? You, codit & your other fictional carachters have a compass pointing in the wrong direction!

I took the test.....was easy! why? cause the money mongers at ISA & other organizations are lobbying & putting in place laws & ordinances stating CA`s must be on staff! Did it make me better? NO!... all it did was cost me money, sorry! I am no prouder being a CA than I was before obtaining that credential or more knowledgeable!

CEU`s are a RIPOFF...plain & simple, Hmmm... bolts from the blue?? the author has no clue should be the follow up!


LXT.................


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## mckeetree (Oct 18, 2009)

Toddppm said:


> Why is there never any complaining about the TCIA/NAA?



I know. Seems like my TCIA dues were like $700.00. I just paid them a couple weeks ago.


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## Koa Man (Oct 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> And conversely what should irk you as well is someone climbing a tree and more so pruning one that doesn't know enough about trees to pass a simple test.
> 
> Isn't this what we call a hack.



They are not claiming to be certified and making a big deal out of it, like some CAs I know who are now telling people if you are not a CA you don't know how to prune trees. Some of the worst work I have seen have been done by a CA who actually teaches some of the CA prep classes here.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 18, 2009)

ckliff said:


> (snip) Don't be surprised when someday ISA or TCIA push for mandated federal or states licensing.



Oh, that it would happen! Best way to keep hacks out. Just ask the AMA. 
Note: This has been kicked around, in here, over and over, so I'm not going there, again.

-Miles


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 18, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> I know. Seems like my TCIA dues were like $700.00. I just paid them a couple weeks ago.



I have to ask, why? I get the excellent TCIA magazine for free. Let me know the benefits that come with TCIA membership and I may just kick them some $$$. Thanks.

BTW, we're busy as heck down here in Austin, right now. How's it going in Big D?

-Miles


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## ckliff (Oct 18, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Oh, that it would happen! Best way to keep hacks out. Just ask the AMA.
> Note: This has been kicked around, in here, over and over, so I'm not going there, again.
> 
> -Miles



Are you serious, or joshing me?


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## treeseer (Oct 18, 2009)

lxt said:


> $0....not the point guy!
> CEU`s are a RIPOFF...plain & simple, Hmmm... bolts from the blue?? the author has no clue should be the follow up!


Like I said, make a coherent comment about it and I will respond.

Still waiting. 

And you're still calling free CEU's a ripoff.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

Koa Man said:


> They are not claiming to be certified and making a big deal out of it, like some CAs I know who are now telling people if you are not a CA you don't know how to prune trees. Some of the worst work I have seen have been done by a CA who actually teaches some of the CA prep classes here.



My point is that if someone does not even attain the entry level of knowledge that the CA takes.....no matter how aesthetically pleasing their pruning may be (for example) if they cut open every branch collar they make a cut on from lack of knowledge they they are doing as much damage as a bull in a china shop.


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## mckeetree (Oct 18, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Oh, that it would happen! Best way to keep hacks out. Just ask the AMA.
> Note: This has been kicked around, in here, over and over, so I'm not going there, again.
> 
> -Miles



Someone has already made a remark, but yes, I am all for it.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 18, 2009)

ckliff said:


> Are you serious, or joshing me?



(OK, I said I wouldn't go there, again, but-----)

Oh man, rest assured I would not kid you. Strict licensing and regulations keep those who fight through the maze to get it, at the top of the income scale. I've been in the professional world long enough to see that this is absolutely true. The more road-blocks you throw up to the attainment of professional status in a given field, the more money those at the top of the field will make, ultimately, as those of lesser drive and/or intelligence fall by the way. Again, the AMA (and the whole medical field) is a prime example along with those who eat the :censored: sandwiches to become lawyers, veterinarians, engineers, etc. Licensing does, by definition, keep the hacks out. If it were possible to absolutely prevent hacks from doing tree jobs in a given area, via strict licensing and regulations, the income of those with the proper credentials would skyrocket. 

Sad to say, I have found that those with the least education and professional credentials, in any given field, are the ones who yell the loudest against testing, licensing, regulations, yearly fees, etc. I saw this in my last profession, as a tattooist and owner of the first licensed tattoo shop in Texas (License#000001), and that profession has been ruined by the glut of people now running shops under very weak licensing conditions.

Yeah, believe me, you do want stronger regulations, more enforcement, stricter licensing standards, and so on. A good number, in here, will rail against the same, but I know what I know and, sadly, they are wrong.


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## mckeetree (Oct 18, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I have to ask, why? I get the excellent TCIA magazine for free. Let me know the benefits that come with TCIA membership and I may just kick them some $$$. Thanks.
> 
> BTW, we're busy as heck down here in Austin, right now. How's it going in Big D?
> 
> -Miles



It would be hard for me to completely justify TCIA dues but I have been a member for years and order quite a bit of material from them at some discount because of membership. The more regular employees you have the more benefit you get from it I think. We are fairly busy right now.


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## mckeetree (Oct 18, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> (OK, I said I wouldn't go there, again, but-----)
> 
> Oh man, rest assured I would not kid you. Strict licensing and regulations keep those who fight through the maze to get it, at the top of the income scale. I've been in the professional world long enough to see that this is absolutely true. The more road-blocks you throw up to the attainment of professional status in a given field, the more money those at the top of the field will make, ultimately, as those of lesser drive and/or intelligence fall by the way. Again, the AMA (and the whole medical field) is a prime example along with those who eat the :censored: sandwiches to become lawyers, veterinarians, engineers, etc. Licensing does, by definition, keep the hacks out. If it were possible to absolutely prevent hacks from doing tree jobs in a given area, via strict licensing and regulations, the income of those with the proper credentials would skyrocket.
> 
> ...




That's a good post and exactly what I would have said had I posted it myself.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

at the risk of being redundant....as I have said this before, we have the licensing (CA) and with or without state/fed licensing we, again like the med. profession, have a great need for specialist credentials to become credible. Or you are just a GP and the GP can refer/defer to the specialist if the need arises.

Maybe it takes the state/fed entity to financially handle the execution of this endeavor as the ISA is not likely to go there very soon.

This would be consistent with the "more hoops you jump through the more bucks find their way into your pocket" theory.


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## lxt (Oct 18, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Like I said, make a coherent comment about it and I will respond.
> 
> Still waiting.
> 
> And you're still calling free CEU's a ripoff.




Coherent.... Ok,.. My girlfriend & others I know have Bachelor degrees or above, the only continuing of education they go through is; system change involving a new program, training on a new handheld, maybe a public speaking class in case of presentations, etc....which is #1 paid for by the employer & #2 done with a trainer on sight to insure their understanding.

they/she does not have to [refresh] themselves in, english, writing, math or the other "core" classes which gave them the degree to begin with or the elective classes!

I dont have to read books & take CEU`s for my CDL drivers license nor do other drivers for a regular license! im not against continuing education!! AGAIN & ill speak coherently for you!!!!!!! when keeping the cert. requires you to engage in answering 3, 4 times or more the questions than the original Cert. providing exam did.....there is something wrong!

It should be the other way around, maybe those 18 ceu`s are free but figure that out! roughly what? 350 - 400 questions twice as many as the original exam!! and your a little over half way there.......now buy the educational material for the other 12 & answer those questions...cmon!

Like I said Ill probably just retake the exam....why not, thats a refresher! wasnt that hard & the fee will be paid through the exam for three more years, its a no brainer...most already have the study guide! re-read it, save the time & the money & ill still be just as certified as the next guy! Not to mention I can read the study guide over three years in depth!

BTW....there are no such thing as free CEU`s, you paid a membership fee & certification fee! & will continue to pay these fee`s.......LOL, still think there free? what benefits do we really get? seriously! a job bank! reduced costs on already inflated expensive books, arborist news(must pay for now), what do they offer that I cant go elsewhere & get? other than a cert.!

also membership dues just increased with the same number on staff...so their publication says! Ceu`s if not a rip off are at the least done in a non efficient azzbackward manner requiring that of which the DMV doesnt even require for a teen age driver holding a.......*LICENSE* did I speak coherently enough for you Guy?


LXT......................


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

*The beating continues.*

It is nice to see others carrying the torch, I was a prophet of sorts, read my old posts on this sordid topic. Too funny.


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## jrietkerk (Oct 18, 2009)

I think I understand you - you're saying that if you get all your required CEUs through the ISA articles and sending in the questions, you're answering more questions than you did for the original test. And you have to pay for the questions because the magazine they come in isn't free. Doesn't sound like a good deal, I agree. 

However, I don't send in any test questions and have all my CEUs in 12 or 18 months. Seminars, local and regional events, presentations, blah blah. I see the same dudes around all the time, so I'm not the only one. Good climbing or rigging courses when I can afford it. I figure that other CA's I meet are doing the same. If your only training or continuing education is reading magazines, that's not enough. If you don't need training ever, and stay sharp and up to date just from your job, then you don't need any ISA credentials because you're the man. Tree care is not rocket science, but how else can you show that you're 'on the path' of learning about trees, that you're an 'arborist'. Its great if your reputation alone will be enough. Where I am, most think an arborist is a member of the woodwind section, so it doesn't matter as much as my reputation, but I have both. 

If you need training but can't afford it, then do the little quizzes until you can. Go to 1 serious event or course a year, and you're done. Maybe volunteer at a TCC. . 

I don't blame you for looking hard for value, especially in a certification for our 'trade'. Also sucks that you 'have' to get the certification to get work in your area, but there's other reasons to ##### about ISA certification. There are even more reasons to ##### about the value of your Bachelor's, and even more if its above. . .


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

If your goal in life is to remain a tree garbageman (er sanitation engineer) and just do takedowns and dead limb amputations then....you are wasting your money on certification, mags, questions, maybe even this forum. But as usual we will hear from you when the hacks are knocking on doors stealing all your tree garbage and amputated dead things and associated bottom feeder revenues.

Lots (lots) of us out there are going to the seminars and reading cover to cover and, hey, cracking books open on a daily basis....because we love trees (don't even think we can't hang with the BEST on takedowns either) and the more you learn the more interesting it gets. The credits attained are just incidental and a very small part of all that is studied in the period.

If you think you know it all and you answered all the appropriate questions during the BIG TEST try reading "Diagnosis and Prognosis of the Development of Wood Decay in Urban Trees" by Francic Schwarze. By the time you get to know all it contains you will never remove a tree that has a benign infection due to overreaction. You will know you belong on the hi dolla properties.


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> If your goal in life is to remain a tree garbageman (er sanitation engineer) and just do takedowns and dead limb amputations then....you are wasting your money on certification, mags, questions, maybe even this forum. But as usual we will hear from you when the hacks are knocking on doors stealing all your tree garbage and amputated dead things and associated bottom feeder revenues.
> 
> (don't even think we can't hang with the BEST on takedowns either)



Sorry you are so bitter, and mean spirited to the lesser treemen out there, like me. I have been called worse things by better people, so, no offence taken. 

But, if you perform all aspects of tree work, the most high end, and esteemed work, pruning and massaging trees, along with the takedowns, how do you figure you can hang with the BEST doing takedowns? I mean, if one is a garbage man, bottom feeder, etc, a removal guy, you would figure they would have it down when it comes to removals, no?

And don't you feel dirty when you do removals, like you are slumming, removals being bottom feeder work and all?


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## jrietkerk (Oct 18, 2009)

this thread has become derailed, just so you know. We started talking about CEU's for ISA CA's. (that's a lot of C's and A's. . ) There's some issues there, like what are good ways of getting useful CEU's that make the certification meaningful and useful. That might be worth a discussion. 

Now we're (you), are talking about a divide between tree guys who do lots of removals vs. those who don't do quite as many removals. That's another thread, just so you know. ( Just because I prune some fruit trees certain times in the year doesn't mean I can't speedline a big chunk of fir during others. Just because I can climb SRT doesn't mean I can't wear spurs when I have to. . .) 

If all you do is bad arse removals with big rigging and technical falling, your lifespan is in the industry is limited. If you're a CUA, you already have a nicely regulated certification, but maybe the type of jobs you get are limited. . Makes sense. Hopefully you get to do mostly bucket work when you get older. Maybe down the road you can do assessments and management, stay out of the spurs when you're 55. Must be some kind of certification or badge you can get to set you apart from others when it comes time for setting that up for yourself. 

Keep your low self esteem out of the discussion. Take your meds and say hi to your mama for me.


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## jomoco (Oct 18, 2009)

If yu really wanna tick TV off Clearance, just mention the ancient and highly respected and documented history of the fine arboreal art of pollarding.

He'll pull out his hair and run screaming into his ivory tower located on a very well to do private estate.

Yes indeed, the art of pollarding, practiced by lowlife peasants and the king's alike for centuries!

How do you and your ISA colleagues truly feel about properly practiced pollarding Treevet?

Are there CEU's available for a course in pollarding from the ISA?

jomoco


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

clearance said:


> Sorry you are so bitter, and mean spirited to the lesser treemen out there, like me. I have been called worse things by better people, so, no offence taken.
> 
> But, if you perform all aspects of tree work, the most high end, and esteemed work, pruning and massaging trees, along with the takedowns, how do you figure you can hang with the BEST doing takedowns? I mean, if one is a garbage man, bottom feeder, etc, a removal guy, you would figure they would have it down when it comes to removals, no?
> 
> And don't you feel dirty when you do removals, like you are slumming, removals being bottom feeder work and all?



I am not bitter at all and, yes, I take out the garbage too. I just have diversified to learn to help the trees that do not need the axe unlike you.

You spike perfectly healthy trees and make them unhealthy (and often brag about it). You not only remove the garbage but you turn trees into garbage. You cut off limbs that are unfortunate to be aimed in the wrong direction. You are likely the one that feels bitter (about yourself) and rightfully so.


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

jrietkerk said:


> Keep your low self esteem out of the discussion. Take your meds and say hi to your mama for me.



I thought your post before this was not to bad, now you are insulting me. Thats fine, I moved a little closer to you now, we will meet up. No hard feelings, I am beyond that. Maybe we can go for coffee and talk.


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> I am not bitter at all and, yes, I take out the garbage too. I just have diversified to learn to help the trees that do not need the axe unlike you.
> 
> You spike perfectly healthy trees and make them unhealthy (and often brag about it). You not only remove the garbage but you turn trees into garbage. You cut off limbs that are unfortunate to be aimed in the wrong direction. You are likely the one that feels bitter (about yourself) and rightfully so.



Tell me about pollarding.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

jomoco said:


> If yu really wanna tick TV off Clearance, just mention the ancient and highly respected and documented history of the fine arboreal art of pollarding.
> 
> He'll pull out his hair and run screaming into his ivory tower located on a very well to do private estate.
> 
> ...



Interesting that this thread would bring out your soapbox on topping (you call pollarding). You used to be the self proclaimed expert on cabling and have run out of material I take it. Another ISA basher with a limited knowledge data bank.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

clearance said:


> Tell me about pollarding.



Jon's standing in the background on his soapbox. You two are made for each other.


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

clearance said:


> I thought your post before this was not to bad, now you are insulting me. Thats fine, I moved a little closer to you now, we will meet up. No hard feelings, I am beyond that. Maybe we can go for coffee and talk.



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## jrietkerk (Oct 18, 2009)

clearance said:


> I thought your post before this was not to bad, now you are insulting me. Thats fine, I moved a little closer to you now, we will meet up. No hard feelings, I am beyond that. Maybe we can go for coffee and talk.



ok, I know better than to reference one's mama. I take that part back. Everyone here is a professional, and lxt has a hard time with CEU's and maybe the ISA in general. How can we help him?


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

http://on-line-seminars.com/

Thought I had an answer early on in this thread. Free credits that can be had in the time it takes to re cert. and good mtls.


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## clearance (Oct 18, 2009)

jrietkerk said:


> ok, I know better than to reference one's mama. I take that part back. Everyone here is a professional, and lxt has a hard time with CEU's and maybe the ISA in general. How can we help him?



Me and my mom do not get along at all, so, its the lack of repect to me by saying that which bothers me, not the insult to my mom. Some guys would be in thier truck, speeding to Esquimalt to find you, but not me. Apology excepted.

As far as helping LXT, I lke the guy, I can't help him as far as the ISA goes, I would advise him to give up on it. But that probably isn't the answer you are looking for. As far as me being a professional, well, that word is much abused. I am just a hard working, half decent tree guy. Nothing special.


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## pdqdl (Oct 18, 2009)

beastmaster said:


> I've procrastinated, and now have to get all my CEU's in the next 6 months. Works been a little slow this last year and the money is going to hurt a little. I plan on buying the little book sets they sell at an inflated price and start kicking them out. I had to give up my ISA membership as I didn't have the extra money so I don't receive the magazine anymore so no free CEU's.
> ...



Yep. I'm in exactly the same spot, except I have a little more time.


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## jomoco (Oct 18, 2009)

clearance said:


> Tell me about pollarding.



Well Clearance, a few centuries ago pollarding certain varieties of trees on an annual basis provided poor peasants with a uniform wood size sprout of an ideal length and suppleness once boiled to weave into utility baskets that could be sold or traded for food. This is thought to be the very origins of pollarding for a commercial end user product.

It was also practiced in the gardens of royal courts and estates along with espaliering and topiary training of trees and shrubs. There is actually an ancient english estate's documentation of properly pollarded plane trees outliving their brethren in the natural forest.

Of course TV and the ISA look down their noses at pollarding and prefer to pretend that it has no place in modern arboriculture, but the funny thing is that such ridiculous behavior on their part only tends to make their noses grow even longer!

Almost like very snobbish sucker growth!

jomoco


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

> Of course TV and the ISA look down their noses at pollarding and prefer to pretend that it has no place in modern arboriculture, but the funny thing is that such ridiculous behavior on their part only tends to make their noses grow even longer!
> 
> Almost like very snobbish sucker growth!




Is this the practice you refer to Mr. Smarty Pants?

http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/topping.aspx


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## jomoco (Oct 18, 2009)

treevet said:


> Is this the practice you refer to Mr. Smarty Pants?
> 
> http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/topping.aspx



No no no knave!

More like this my pompous bon vivant!

http://ourfrenchgarden.blogspot.com/2009/03/la-ville-de-sarlat.html

jomoco


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## treevet (Oct 18, 2009)

jomoco said:


> No no no knave!
> 
> More like this my pompous bon vivant!
> 
> ...



You sneak out of your home/hole in the dark of the night to defend the honor of the address that is T. H. in hopes they might let you in their secret room......not likely.

I show you the literature you detest (ISA) and your response is "no, no, that is not it" (yes it is). Then while speaking French (w t f) you show some properly pollarded trees. What's this got to do with CEU's?


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## jomoco (Oct 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> You sneak out of your home/hole in the dark of the night to defend the honor of the address that is T. H. in hopes they might let you in their secret room......not likely.
> 
> I show you the literature you detest (ISA) and your response is "no, no, that is not it" (yes it is). Then while speaking French (w t f) you show some properly pollarded trees. What's this got to do with CEU's?



Now don't go pullin yur hair out TV, it's just that the world of arboriculture is a heckuvalot bigger than the ISA and some of it's more pompous know it all members, like for instance you, who are so fond of speaking in absolute and misleading terms that can be documented as false quite easily.

There are arborists throughout the US who practice proper pollarding, and do it very well despite the squeals of protest and horrified indignation by you and your fellow ISA snobs.

You and the ISA speaking in absolutes the way you do is almost comical in today's over fertilized modern arboricultural environment in terms of particular tree species and pollarding being an absolute no no. Erythrina caffra in SoCal is a perfect example of a tree taken out of it's natural environment and put into a modern one that feeds it so much water and fertilizer that if it's not pollarded every dang year it'll split out and hit the ground and anything under it pronto. In fact in some of the fancier commercial environments these trees find themselves in that really love their plush green grass all year round, these African coral trees have to be pollarded every 6 months or else.

What's true for some tree species is by no means true of all tree species by any stretch of the imagination regardless of how many books you've read or how many tests you've passed.

Instead of bad mouthing the pollarding practice so ignorantly the way both you and the ISA do, you need to start teaching that on some species of trees in some modern environments it is a perfectly valid means of treecare when done properly, and then give CEU's to arborists willing to learn the technique and do it right.

Get your noses out of the air and be a little more pragmatic and flexible about adapting to both older and newer arboricultural realities that need to be acknowledged, discussed and taught to beginning arborists eager to learn.

Your silly pompous attitudes towards beginners fuels the very practices you deplore. In today's world of high tech information accessibility through the internet, there is no excuse for trying to wring money and membership dues out of beginning arborists as is currently done by the ISA and others in our industry. Our industry is humble enough as it is without the ISA taking on airs and pricing themselves out of reach to anyone interested in an arboricultural career.

jomoco


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## clearance (Oct 19, 2009)

Great post Jo.

TV can give it, but he can't take it. I can't speak to pollarding, I am not worthy to even speak about anything, I guess.:greenchainsaw:


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> check the website; college courses get a lot; in many cases too much imo but that is another topic.
> 
> i agree with treevet but in the online forum the quality really varies but it is a free resource and there are less infomercials than before.
> 
> beast if you knew what went into those books you may not call their value inflated.



The free online system works. Any arborist with internet could get them all for free if they want. 

I took a college class for my CEUs, because I still like college quite a bit, and money was not the issue.


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## jrietkerk (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm surprised that LXT is upset about CEU's - did you sign the 'Certified Arborist Agreement' when you became certified with the ISA? This means you would have disclosed all your past criminal and neo-criminal activity to the Certification Board, as well as promising to disclose to them all and any issues that you get involved with in the future. CEU's are the least of your worries as a CA. 
Any trade will have some kind of fee associated with certification or membership, however not many will track your legal status. 

I've had to have certification for jobs too, but not because the ISA has lobbied my employer to make it mandatory - my employer looked for something to show that I am a professional, and there is nothing else around in my part of the world. My government sees us all as 'forestry workers', and regulates falling and yarding operations. As a 'residential' tree guy, my experience and references speak for themselves, but you can't put everything on paper.


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## outofmytree (Oct 19, 2009)

Interesting thread.

I understand the OP's concern about the cost of ongoing education but it seemed that the money side of things can be resolved using the seminars TV suggested. 

The second point regarding more Q&A *after* qualification than before makes perfect sense if you compare arboriculture to almost any other science. Most professions related to sciences allow for a basic qualification, an advanced qualification, a teaching qualification and numerous specialist qualifications. Why should arboriculture be any different? Or consider a trade. Once I became a sheet metal worker I could, if I chose, remain a standard tradesman. Or I had the option of taking certified welding courses, technical design courses, CAD courses, supervisory courses, management courses and so on. The only difference I can see is that some bright spark hit upon the idea of making ongoing education mandatory therefore ensuring that any CA had at least to be exposed to new information on a regular basis. Whether the information sinks in is of course another matter.

It remains a personal choice as to whether a tree professional chooses to gain formal certification, but if you are to pursue such a goal it is always better that it be hard to attain. Otherwise achieving the goal will not reward you emotionally or financially.


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## treevet (Oct 19, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Now don't go pullin yur hair out TV, it's just that the world of arboriculture is a heckuvalot bigger than the ISA and some of it's more pompous know it all members, like for instance you, who are so fond of speaking in absolute and misleading terms that can be documented as false quite easily.
> 
> There are arborists throughout the US who practice proper pollarding, and do it very well despite the squeals of protest and horrified indignation by you and your fellow ISA snobs.
> 
> ...



YOU are one fahrt smeller (er I mean smart feller) joke a moke. No one can deny that and no one can ever take that away from you. But it doesn't take the kind of "figgerin out hard stuff" smarts you got to tell the dif. between pollarding and topping. It is all about establishing the pollard head and regularly maintaining it without damage.

When your boys on the thread (that you are poking at me for) on your forum (T H) say they are going to go out and pollard a bunch of silver maples and they show before and after picts. you don't need to be Einstein to figger out that ain't right.

Cheers :sword:


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## clearance (Oct 19, 2009)

jrietkerk said:


> I've had to have certification for jobs too, but not because the ISA has lobbied my employer to make it mandatory - my employer looked for something to show that I am a professional, and there is nothing else around in my part of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> My government sees us all as 'forestry workers', and regulates falling and yarding operations. As a 'residential' tree guy, my experience and references speak for themselves, but you can't put everything on paper.



"Nothing else around" So, the ISA cert is better than nothing, is that what you are saying? So, something from Crackerjack box would be better than nothing as well, because, at least its someting, right?. Wow, hardly a stellar endorsement of the ISA, but, I agree, its better than nothing, I guess.:monkey:

Actually, the goverment does not see all treeguys as forestry workers, there is much regulation regarding tree work around powerlines, and regualations about fall protection and the like.


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## lxt (Oct 19, 2009)

This is sum funny ***t, thanks clearance...I knew you`d understand.

Guys I dont need help with CEU`s!!!!!!! I just think one would do just as good re-taking the test every 3 years, IMHO

Look, I promote the cert. in advertisement, my website & other media avenues....so its not like im against Certification, Im against the BS & arrogance that goes with the cert.

as far as the CEU`s.... I was voicing my opinion...I THINK THERE RIPOFFS!! can I get them....YES! why am I complaining....because the continuing education requirement is more lengthy, time consuming & more costly than the original test to obtain the cert.!!!!! thats it!!

tried to rep some of you guys but it wont let me!


LXT....................


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 19, 2009)

lxt said:


> This is sum funny ***t, thanks clearance...I knew you`d understand.
> 
> Guys I dont need help with CEU`s!!!!!!! I just think one would do just as good re-taking the test every 3 years, IMHO
> 
> ...



Hmmm-Seems to me that you can get 18 CEU's, in three years, just from the free quizzes in the ISA magazine. Then all you need to do is attend three seminars that include 4 CEU's each, and you're set. CEU's are just that: CONTINUING Education Units. "Continuing" calls to mind the furthering of your education by keeping up with advances in your chosen profession. To retake the CA test every three years is laughingly dopey. You will (mostly) be going over the same old, same old. What a silly thing to do for the sake of saving a few bucks, as you're "angle" here seems to be.


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## mckeetree (Oct 19, 2009)

clearance said:


> So, something from Crackerjack box would be better than nothing as well, because, at least its something, right?.




Kind of like the Nobel Peace Prize. But seriously, I think you are missing his point.


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## clearance (Oct 19, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Kind of like the Nobel Peace Prize. But seriously, I think you are missing his point.



Not at all, he said it. But I do understand where you are coming from. He knows more about trees than me, I am sure. As far as cutting trees down in a fast and nasty manner, thats another story. 
I don't think anyone here knocking the ISA thinks they are totally useless, or terrible. Just that there are problems with the ISA. And others are mighty touchy about it.


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 19, 2009)

We need CEUs for the landscape board here too.

It's a really tough test. Honestly, I doubt that even 1 out every 100 members on this forum could even pass that one.

The ISA test was easier, but because of the experience mandate, I think its okay for a minimum threshold certificate.

Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.

Like belts in martial arts.

Every 3 years typically means 3 years more experience, plus the education CEUs. 

We could give someone like LXT a white belt, and work up from there. Although, extra years of experience and college could be applied.


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## NCTREE (Oct 19, 2009)

Most of the people in this forum either work for someone or themselves. Most companies pay for the employee's ISA dues. When I worked for a company they payed for me to get cert, payed my membership dues, and payed my way into the annual shade tree symposium. If you work for yourself I don't see the big deal, it's a tax write off and a small price to pay for continuing education. This is my profession and my hobby, I love what I do so learning something new has more worth to me then it's price tag. Plus it gives me an edge over Joe Smoe Tree Swacker!


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## clearance (Oct 19, 2009)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.
> 
> Like belts in martial arts.



M.D., in martial arts, you have to do something to get the belt. I have met a few people with black belts this and third degree that, but I have yet to meet a book learned martial arts anything. Like, a martial arts expert who learned from books could kick my azz as good as a real black belt to the ntth degree?


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## Adkpk (Oct 19, 2009)

jomoco said:


> No no no knave!
> 
> More like this my pompous bon vivant!
> 
> ...



Not taking a side here but that is funny. Nice site J. 



Firstly, I see the reason for tree workers to need continuing ed. And I thank the ISA for taking on the job of putting all together so one can obtain the knowledge if wanted. 

I pay my membership dues but have not taken the test, because the more I learn the more I find out I don't know but secondly because of the cost to keep it going, hence supporting the op's gripe. 
I will stop here but want to add that I am still avidly studying from whatever books I can afford. "Modern Arborculture" by Shigo is next.

Oh ya, this thread is another great one. When you guys bang your heads together good stuff comes out.


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## treevet (Oct 19, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> I will stop here but want to add that I am still avidly studying from whatever books I can afford. "Modern Arborculture" by Shigo is next.



You can buy the whole set, vid included I think, at substantial discount. He used to have a great week long seminar by that name in Boone, NC that was probably the best learning experience ever (great food as well).


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## treevet (Oct 19, 2009)

M.D. Vaden said:


> Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.
> 
> Like belts in martial arts.
> 
> Every 3 years typically means 3 years more experience, plus the education CEUs.



I have said this in the past too and have called the ISA with this opinion and the response was "interesting, I will pass it on". That was maybe 5 years ago or so. It could be exhibited after one's cert. number.


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## jomoco (Oct 19, 2009)

Whose bright idea was this new ISA CA narc off program TV?

Wasn't you was it?

+1 on N Carolina quisine. Scott's barbeque sauce on pig! Real cornbread!

jomoco


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 19, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> Most of the people in this forum either work for someone or themselves. Most companies pay for the employee's ISA dues. When I worked for a company they payed for me to get cert, payed my membership dues, and payed my way into the annual shade tree symposium. If you work for yourself I don't see the big deal, it's a tax write off and a small price to pay for continuing education. This is my profession and my hobby, I love what I do so learning something new has more worth to me then it's price tag. Plus it gives me an edge over Joe Smoe Tree Swacker!



Well said.


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## clearance (Oct 19, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Regardleess of whose silly idea it was, it will only result in a civil war among ISA members themselves, thereby weakening the ISA and their goals further.
> 
> My respect goes to both independents and ISA members who let their work and policies speak for them, rather than playing silly espionage games and running off to tell the so called "authorities" like a frustrated child.
> 
> ...



I would like to hear more, sounds like a program where ISA types rat on thier fellows? Is this so? Please explain and post a link, I can't stand the blatant hypocrisy and bs involving some ISA types who violate the ISA rules. I am all ears.


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## Adkpk (Oct 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> You can buy the whole set, vid included I think, at substantial discount.



I take you mean at ISA with my membership discount? Bailey's had that book for sale this summer for $50. Wasn't ready for yet then.


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## treevet (Oct 19, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> I take you mean at ISA with my membership discount? Bailey's had that book for sale this summer for $50. Wasn't ready for yet then.



It seems if you go to the source it should be cheaper but I am not positive. What I meant was if you bought all his stuff then I know individual books come out the cheapest as part of the set. And if you plan on buying more later then you might regret not saving up for the set.

www.shigoandtrees.com

His daughter has taken over since he passed away.....Judy Shigo.


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## jomoco (Oct 19, 2009)

clearance said:


> I would like to hear more, sounds like a program where ISA types rat on thier fellows? Is this so? Please explain and post a link, I can't stand the blatant hypocrisy and bs involving some ISA types who violate the ISA rules. I am all ears.



All the nitty gritty behind closed doors lawyerly details of the new narc off program are outlined here Clearance.

http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/EthicsCaseProcedures.pdf

Complete with everything but curled and coiffed torrey white wigs.

jomoco


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## treevet (Oct 19, 2009)

jomoco said:


> All the nitty gritty behind closed doors lawyerly details of the new narc off program are outlined here Clearance.
> 
> http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/EthicsCaseProcedures.pdf
> 
> ...



Man, that's some really old news. Seems like you 2 ISA haters woulda been on that long before this. 

Long time ago contracts were said to go out to all CA's to sign and return but neither my GM (a CA) nor I ever got one. Anyone ever get this in the mail?

Torrey white wigs?....just a tad melodramatic,,,,maybe even a little corny don't you think?

PS....Whatya doin with that "cabling sighting device" you invented a while back. Looked like it might make for a great row boat anchor.?


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## clearance (Oct 20, 2009)

jomoco said:


> All the nitty gritty behind closed doors lawyerly details of the new narc off program are outlined here Clearance.
> 
> http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/EthicsCaseProcedures.pdf
> 
> ...



Thanks for that.

As you know, I have problems with the utility here (B.C. Hydro) being in the ISA, as a company, and having some of its employees as ISA members. Some of you will remember me beefing over it in the past with others here.

The main issue for me is ISA certified employees of this utility watching utility arborists climb trees with spurs, at all times. I have no problem with this, but when one flies the ISA flag, they should see that treework is done to ISA rules, don't you think? And if they can't make it so, then they should leave the ISA. By staying in it they demean the ISA, and themselves. 

Going over old ground, Tom Dunlap advised a manager there that I was "trashing" B.C. Hydro, subsequently Boston Bull called this fellow up and was lied to, big time.

It is more than obviuos that this utilty is violating ethics according to the ISA, and should be investigated. What, with condoning the spurring of trees to trim, lying and so on. 

So, who here that is ISA certified, is going to help me clean up the ISA,by getting rid of this unworthy member?


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## jomoco (Oct 20, 2009)

treevet said:


> Man, that's some really old news. Seems like you 2 ISA haters woulda been on that long before this.
> 
> Long time ago contracts were said to go out to all CA's to sign and return but neither my GM (a CA) nor I ever got one. Anyone ever get this in the mail?
> 
> ...



I had my battles with the ISA over 15 years ago in the mid 90's TV.

I'll never forget going to W O Hart Park in Orange county CA to get certified. Some 300 lb fat dude name of brad was running the show there like some lord of the trees, from the ground of course, yelling at the newbies to do this and not that while cracking jokes about them with his fellow "authorities", it made me want to drop a limb on him just to get him to shut up and quit making the newbies nervous in the trees testing that day. He even had the nerve to give me a hard time for doing a picture perfect aerial rescue of the dummy in the tree because according to him, if the rest of the group copied my method of taking the dummy off his rope and bringing him down, it would take too long for the group to finish the aerial rescue portion of the testing. When I got in his face about the stupidity of trusting the dummy's rope after a simulated accident involving a chainsaw, the jerk disqualified me! Ticked me off so much that when I performed it again using the dummies rope, I set the record for fastest aerial rescue at that park!

It was at the same park that day doing the work climb that I noticed the heads of the sycamores they used each year for the work climb testing were actually dying back because of the ropes of the climbers burning the cambium of the trees at the TIP's. I remember thinking to myself, why don't they vary the trees each year rather than using the same trees to the point the heads were dying back? This was the aha moment when I first thought of devising a means of preventing cambial rope burns from bodylines. The year was 1990.

And I had to argue with the bloody ISA for 4 years before they'd even consider including any type of cambium saving devices into their stinking standards.

Many years have passed since I quit the ISA for good, but even now it's obvious to me that they haven't changed their mule headed condescending attitudes one little bit in the least. Their standards allowing the use of J lags to cable softwood trees is a prime example of their mule headed stupidity that could actually get somebody killed despite the work being done to ISA standards!

Don't talk to me about how great and all knowing the authorities at the ISA are TV, because I know better from firsthand experience with them.

jomoco



During


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## beastmaster (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm just a lowly tree trimmer. I work for other people. I rarely leave the county I live in. I live in a 5th wheel and drive an old car. CEU's are (were)expensive. I have already started on the free seminars(thanks again) So my attitude has mellowed some towards the ISA. I have always looked up to CA's 
The test was pretty easy. Lots easier then I would have expected. Now that I is one. I see its not some great achievement. As I once thought. But if a guy has been getting his CEUs for the last ten years, He has had to learn something that has made him a better arborist. Plus, when my other lowly trimmers and grounds men hear I am a CA, I think I finily get a little recognition for all the studying I've done over the years, even if the ISA had nothing to do with it. Yes I'm guilty of telling a customer, I'm a Cert. Arborist. I'm not taking sides. There is room for improvement, but its not all bad.


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## treeseer (Oct 20, 2009)

jo half the stuff you are complaining about are ANSI, not ISA.

but yeah i've seen fat groundbound types teach climbing and it makes me wish more experienced arborists would step up and see it done right.


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## treevet (Oct 20, 2009)

Yeah those big fat guys can be meanies sometimes. He wasn't very sensitive to your feelings at all


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## lxt (Oct 20, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Hmmm-Seems to me that you can get 18 CEU's, in three years, just from the free quizzes in the ISA magazine. Then all you need to do is attend three seminars that include 4 CEU's each, and you're set. CEU's are just that: CONTINUING Education Units. "Continuing" calls to mind the furthering of your education by keeping up with advances in your chosen profession. To retake the CA test every three years is laughingly dopey. You will (mostly) be going over the same old, same old. What a silly thing to do for the sake of saving a few bucks, as you're "angle" here seems to be.




There are no *FREE* quizzes, we pay for the magazine through dues!! & now their gonna charge you for the magazine...read the latest arborist news Mag.

Saving bucks is dopey... Hmm should tell GM that, along with many other big businesses.....by re-taking the exam every 3 years & as some here might think....what are you gonna learn doing that?

My answer; Tree Removal hasnt changed the equipment has! making it alot easier than our previous generation who used heavier saws, mannilla rope & other older tools of the trade!

Tree Trimming hasnt changed either, the terminology has!!!!! cabling/bracing and other forms of tree surgery havent changed either, YES the tools & equipment are much better......But, the application & physicality of the trade are the same as it was years ago!!

Now the scientific side of tree care has advanced & will continue too.....SOooo if you want to read & obtain CEU`s for that then knock yourself out, I really dont care too, I am familiar with the main diseases & treatment of such.....there are numerous things to learn at the biological level......remember you`re only a CA.....not a board certified master arborist ooo that sends chills up my back, say it real slow! LOL

We are not professors, or doctors for tree`s & if you think reading them books without any hands on training is going to give you the ability to save the historic Oak in your towns cherished historical district......then you are what I consider laughingly dopey!! go ahead put your slate out....well golley councilman I read this here book by Alex Shigo & got CEU`s for it!

trimming, removals, cabling/bracing,cavity fills, select limb removal along with other aspects of above ground type work will always be my mainstay & like I said its basically unchanged......but you put that untrained book work out there & see how that goes, But hey you got CEU`s! 


LXT.................


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## lxt (Oct 20, 2009)

treeseer said:


> jo half the stuff you are complaining about are ANSI, not ISA.
> 
> but yeah i've seen fat groundbound types teach climbing and it makes me wish more experienced arborists would step up and see it done right.





NO its not!!!! he`s complaining about an ISA test site & the use of the same trees year in and year out causing damage from ropes! he suggested a device that would negate the harm brought to the trees, & suggested it to the ISA to be used at their test sites!

where in the mules rearend are you to relate this to an ANSI matter? cmon! I have the standards Seer & there is no mention in there of cambium saving devices pertaining to ISA test sites.....Hell I dont even think it mentions such at all??? Ill have to look!



LXT..............


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## NCTREE (Oct 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> We are not professors, or doctors for tree`s & if you think reading them books without any hands on training is going to give you the ability to save the historic Oak in your towns cherished historical district......then you are what I consider laughingly dopey!! go ahead put your slate out....well golley councilman I read this here book by Alex Shigo & got CEU`s for it!
> 
> trimming, removals, cabling/bracing,cavity fills, select limb removal along with other aspects of above ground type work will always be my mainstay & like I said its basically unchanged......but you put that untrained book work out there & see how that goes, But hey you got CEU`s!
> 
> ...



I'v been saving a large oak in a historic district for a couple of years now. The HO came to me after a "tree garbage man" as TV would say told the customer it needed to come down. It's been doing great!

Whats a cavity fill? Never heard of that before and if it's what think it is then someone's a Dope! I can't believe people think that filling a hollow cavity with cement or foam is going to help the tree from rotting. HA!


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## treevet (Oct 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> Now the scientific side of tree care has advanced & will continue too.....SOooo if you want to read & obtain CEU`s for that then knock yourself out, I really dont care too, I am familiar with the main diseases & treatment of such.....there are numerous things to learn at the biological level......remember you`re only a CA.....not a board certified master arborist ooo that sends chills up my back, say it real slow! LOL
> 
> We are not professors, or doctors for tree`s & if you think reading them books without any hands on training is going to give you the ability to save the historic Oak in your towns cherished historical district......then you are what I consider laughingly dopey!! go ahead put your slate out....well golley councilman I read this here book by Alex Shigo & got CEU`s for it!
> 
> ...



Boy, ain't nobody gonna hold you back in life......you'll take care of that yourself, thank you very much.

Your life is so simple (only gonna learn what the entry level info requires) that.......................even a Caveman can do it. :monkey:


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## clearance (Oct 20, 2009)

clearance said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> As you know, I have problems with the utility here (B.C. Hydro) being in the ISA, as a company, and having some of its employees as ISA members. Some of you will remember me beefing over it in the past with others here.
> 
> ...



Well, there TV and others, wanna clean up the ISA, get rid off the unworthy? So you can begin restoring some credibility, you know, walk the walk and all that.


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## mckeetree (Oct 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> There are no *FREE* quizzes, we pay for the magazine through dues!! & now their gonna charge you for the magazine...read the latest arborist news Mag.
> 
> Saving bucks is dopey... Hmm should tell GM that, along with many other big businesses.....by re-taking the exam every 3 years & as some here might think....what are you gonna learn doing that?
> 
> ...




I print things out from here from time to time to use as sales tools. Kind of a "See, they're out there. If you don't believe me, look at this." This is a good one to print and keep. Why would anyone want to get on here and make such an assclown of themselves?


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> There are no *FREE* quizzes, we pay for the magazine through dues!! & now their gonna charge you for the magazine...read the latest arborist news Mag.
> 
> Saving bucks is dopey... Hmm should tell GM that, along with many other big businesses.....by re-taking the exam every 3 years & as some here might think....what are you gonna learn doing that?
> 
> ...



I am in a situation, here, where words fail me. Those who know me, on here, can pretty much figure out what I might say about the above, but I must let it slide, or get banned. LXT, you are one very cool dude, no doubt about it. I envy your customer base. How lucky they are to have found you for their tree work. I am now out of this thread, for good, and I won't let the door hit me in the :censored:!


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 20, 2009)

lxt said:


> CEU`s are a ripoff, why? well I can buy a book with the little acorn symbol for $39.95 wich will give me 3 whole ceu`s maybe 3.5 or 4 if im lucky, the arborist magazine gives me a whole 1ceu for answering 20 questions!
> 
> the point? if the initial exam of 200 multiple choice questions was worth certification, then why in order to obtain 30 ceu`s over 3 yrs will i need to answer 10 times that many!
> 
> l



Seems that going right back to the first post may be a path to take again.

In short, a responsible arborist would probably be attending enough extra seminars, or buying books, or buying magazines, or attending extra classes, etc.. to have more than enough CEUs without ever being asked to go and get CEUs.

And since we have established that those can be gained for as little as free, we can see that CEUs are not a ripoff.

Some years I've had almost double what I would need, without even trying, because learning is fun and interesting.


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## treeseer (Oct 21, 2009)

"jo half the stuff you are complaining about are ANSI, not ISA."

lxt, "jo" is jomoco. But speaking of mules' rearends, the notion that tree work is 'basically unchanged' in the past several years shows that someone has not been paying attention.

:notrolls2:


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## jomoco (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey Treeseer, what are ANSI committees comprised of my knowledgeable friend? How many ANSI committees dealing with arboricultural issues even allow non-ISA members to sit on them?

jomoco


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## zopi (Oct 21, 2009)

Even I can see that tree care has changed...and I don't work in the field as more than an amateur...sure the equipment has improved, but so has technique...just a few years back pollarding was a normal accepted thing, 
and no one ced if you flush cut a branch, ruining the collar...painting over 
cut ends was the way to go...

yeh..it's changed...the physical action of removing tree might not have changed much, but the art and science have certainly advanced...


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## lxt (Oct 21, 2009)

zopi said:


> Even I can see that tree care has changed...and I don't work in the field as more than an amateur...sure the equipment has improved, but so has technique...just a few years back pollarding was a normal accepted thing,
> and no one ced if you flush cut a branch, ruining the collar...painting over
> cut ends was the way to go...
> 
> yeh..it's changed...the physical action of removing tree might not have changed much, but the art and science have certainly advanced...





Tree Care has not changed other than the equipment used to do the job!!!! Please............Pollarding is still a way of trimming certain trees, the flush cut has been frowned upon since I started this trade in 1988, painting cuts is still suggested but for a different reason!!

Cavity fills.............these are done alot where I live, not with cement but with foam, its not meant to strengthen the tree but more to keep nature from finishing it off!

Tell me seer what has changed? other than equipment! ANSI standards have basically went unchanged for better than 15yrs!!!

Mctree.....what did I say that mabe an azzclown of me? break it down great one!! I really hope you do print it out & show people.....do you think they will care? show me by paragraph where im wrong!!

truth is.......what I said is the truth, some dont like it because it makes you feel a little disenfranchised, like your not all that & a bag of chips like you thought you were!

I do learn more than the entry level BTW, I was just stating an opinion...MINE!




LXT.....................


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## mckeetree (Oct 21, 2009)

lxt said:


> Tree Care has not changed other than the equipment used to do the job!!!! Please............Pollarding is still a way of trimming certain trees, the flush cut has been frowned upon since I started this trade in 1988, painting cuts is still suggested but for a different reason!!
> 
> Cavity fills.............these are done alot where I live, not with cement but with foam, its not meant to strengthen the tree but more to keep nature from finishing it off!
> 
> ...





You're doing it again. I am printing this one out too. This is gold.


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## NCTREE (Oct 21, 2009)

This is how guys pruned in 1980 and you can see some things haven't changed. I guess to someone who doesn't know any better the techniques haven't changed.


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## lxt (Oct 21, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> You're doing it again. I am printing this one out too. This is gold.





:yourock: LOL, Print away ole boy!

Look Im not against continuing education & I do stay abreast on advances in this industry, I read arborist news, Tcia mag`s, & have a small modest collection of informative books & such!

The thread has been a little de-railed though! I mean why does the ISA require the continuing education to be more lengthy than whats needed? 

why pay over 100+ dollars for 6.5 - 8 Ceu`s for "basic training for tree climbers"....Maybe you non-climbing Arborists will?? If 18 are free as some of you think....then tell me how much the 12 ceu`s will cost along with the recert fee? BTW, their seminars are fairly expensive, miss work, hotel , food, registration fee, etc... maybe you millionaires can do this, but to lose $1500-$2500.00 to get a whopping 4 ceu`s....Nah!

my main "opinion" was/is why so much more to keep the cert? seriously? the compendium series is what $300.00 with ? 49.5 ceu`s & with more than 750 questions.....these are a compilation of all the "free" ceus from 1993 till now! so what now there not free? 

why dont they just have a re-cert test or better yet (1) test per year worth 10 ceu`s? Well I imagine to do that would take away all the money they would make....especially by those of you who love to learn & better yet.....like to spend money to buy their books! 

To recertify should be much easier than obtaining the original Cert. their way is not for continuing your education my fellow CA`s, their way is for putting as much money in their pockets as possible while holding your Cert like a thief for the ransom! yeah how hard could it be 1-book with "free" answer sheets maybe 75 questions touching on a myriad of topics worth 10 ceu`s!!! why wouldnt that work........

oh, thats right, that book would cost hundreds of dollars & no one would buy it, better to plug us for $39.95 here & there or the occasional big hit of a mere $149.95.....thats why!



LXT......................


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## treeseer (Oct 21, 2009)

lxt said:


> Tree Care has not changed other than the equipment used to do the job!!!! Please........ ANSI standards have basically went unchanged for better than 15yrs!!!


 ok since you and jo are peasinapod here:

ISA is one of many member orgs to ANSI, over ten anyway. TCIA is the contact org for all standards except ISA is for safety.

ANSI changes a LOT, every 5 years. Not enough imo, but significantly.

If your tree care methods have not changed, there is a missed opportunity to stay current, if you want to.

Filling cavities with foam to keep WHAT critters from "finishing off" the tree? 

Maybe the computer burped when scoring your test....lucky you!

FRee education is worth every penny that it costs.


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## M.D. Vaden (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> Tree Care has not changed other than the equipment used to do the job!!!! Please............Pollarding is still a way of trimming certain trees, the flush cut has been frowned upon since I started this trade in 1988, painting cuts is still suggested but for a different reason!!
> 
> Cavity fills.............these are done alot where I live, not with cement but with foam, its not meant to strengthen the tree but more to keep nature from finishing it off!
> 
> ...



Treeseer is right based on what I've seen in regards to the average arborist doing less damage by understanding tree biology better than the previous generations.

The handsaw remains the same in that the stroke is back and forth, but the tree care has changed in that the work is done with more moderation, so less damage is being done to the trees.

You may be right in regards to that men and women are still out cutting branches and trunks with saws. And have an eye for shaping.

But the top tier of arborists out in our neck of the woods, are realizing how trees are integrated with turf and shrubs, and have a pretty good grasp on soils and things like mycorrhizae.

I've been down to Powells Books here a few times and read the content of old tree care books and compared that to new tree care books. There is plenty of overlap, but the information is in no way close to identical.

In that regards, tree care is not the same.

It's not the same in the way that professional turf care, like at country clubs, is not the same anymore. Just because the grass gets mowed every day, and the golfers put on the greens every day, does not mean its the same way except for some evil empires like the golf course superintendents association or the USGA.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

*OK, another "final post" on this thread, for me---*

Say, LXT, what's your CA#? Just wondering----

-Miles

CA#TX-3423AU


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## lxt (Oct 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> ok since you and jo are peasinapod here:
> 
> ISA is one of many member orgs to ANSI, over ten anyway. TCIA is the contact org for all standards except ISA is for safety.
> 
> ...




Ansi hasnt changed significantly in the last 15 years, I have the standards back to 95...what change are you speaking of??

My tree care methods...... have not really changed! I advise against "topping", I will talk to a homeowner and advise against removal if there is no good reason to remove, if there is a disease, pest or other I will treat it!.......I have pretty much always done this!

Filling cavities with foam & coating with pruning dressing will help deter water infiltration, especially in the upcoming months, the freeze/thaw effect within the cavity & any cavity veins.......this procedure is done by many tree care companies, including the green & yellow along with the other company whom has a good lab & study coarse!

Yep... the computer burped giving me scores in the upper 80`s & mid 90`s through out all domains, not bad for only reading in my leisure & all done with the arborist study guide!

*Again* there is no free education with the ISA, If you think there is you are a fool 



LXT.............


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## lxt (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> :
> 
> Look Im not against continuing education & I do stay abreast on advances in this industry, I read arborist news, Tcia mag`s, & have a small modest collection of informative books & such!
> 
> ...





Hmmm......what? No one wants to comment on this post!! c`mon guys...surely someone one will try to stick up for the ISA & give reasons why they wouldnt do what is mentioned above.

Cmon.....tell the rest of us why we wouldnt want to recertify this way, tell us how bad that would be, tell us how the high & mighty ISA will sell you CEU`s that are from article reprints from 1993.......FREE you say! LOL 

I cant wait to hear this!! BTW...those of you defending like; treeseer, sunrise, mckeetree.....Im getting Rep`d like crazy from others who feel the same!! thanks, oh....hey, feel free to print this post out too, LOL

LXT................

ps, why would you want my cert #, do you want my press release letter they gave me to, or my customer service ID #?


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> (snip)
> 
> LXT................
> 
> ps, why would you want my cert #, do you want my press release letter they gave me to, or my customer service ID #?



Just cut the :censored: and give me your CA#. It's not an "out there" request. Mine is: TX-3423AU. I want to know that you're not pulling everyone's chain, here, with some bs about how you now are a CA. While I'm on the subject, if you are not a CA, and ISA finds out that you are representing yourself as one, even on here, they will trouble your waters, to the extent that they can. So, what's your CA#? Either give it up, or shut the :censored: up about your CA scores, CEU's and such.

FWIW, there was a guy in here that started a thread about how he was going to spy on everyone whom he suspected of violating OSHA/ANSI standards and regulations. He hid behind his sn and talked real big. As soon as I checked out his CA# and outted him, as to who he was and where he was, he disappeared, never to post in here, again, at least as he did in the past. 

Anyone who is scared to reveal his/her true identity, in here, has some agenda that stinks. As long as you won't let us know your CA#, I can only conclude that you are one sorry :censored: who is feeding this forum a line of :censored:!

Again, WHAT IS YOUR CA#?


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2009)

Lets all do it, WC7624A.
Jeff


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## clearance (Oct 22, 2009)

Do it lxt, the ISA isn't going to do anything about it. According to Tom Dunlap, it not up to ISA memebers to police themselves. And if they do something to you, out of spite and pettiness, then fork them, they ain't worth it anyways.


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## clearance (Oct 22, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Lets all do it, WC7624A.
> Jeff



My utility arborist #00107 TT 04. And I had to get it by working, around powerlines for 1200 hours, not from a book, bra ha ha ha!


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

clearance said:


> Do it lxt, the ISA isn't going to do anything about it. According to Tom Dunlap, it not up to ISA memebers to police themselves. And if they do something to you, out of spite and pettiness, then fork them, they ain't worth it anyways.



:bringit: Come on, LXT, bring it! It's just your CA#. No big deal, unless you've been bs'ing this whole thread.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

clearance said:


> My utility arborist #00107 TT 04. And I had to get it by working, around powerlines for 1200 hours, not from a book, bra ha ha ha!



What certifying body is that from? I know ACRT certifies, but I haven't seen that format. Just wondering----


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Lets all do it, WC7624A.
> Jeff



Nope, not valid. Has it expired?

You're listed as a CA on the ISA site, by your name, but your CA# is not coding out as valid.


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## mckeetree (Oct 22, 2009)

Tx-3486a


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## lxt (Oct 22, 2009)

Certification # PD-1915A, Certified Feb 17, 2009, Expires Jun 30, 2012

Funny thing is sunrise if you would of checked my Bio & then looked in the membership listing you would of seen Im not pulling your chain......Im listed in there as a professional member & Certified Arborist!

hope this answers your question, Now quickly go to the ISA website & check it out!

Would you like my LCTT cert# too? Shesh.....I got more marbles than you!! like its a kids game! 


LXT................


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Nope, not valid. Has it expired?
> 
> You're listed as a CA on the ISA site, by your name, but your CA# is not coding out as valid.



Just re-newed last month. Check by last name, Lovstrom, valid.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Just re-newed last month. Check by last name, Lovstrom, valid.
> Jeff



I fordot they changed western chapter from WC to WE. 
WE7624A. Now try.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2009)

Because it has to have the "-"
WE-7624A
Jeff, almost freaked out


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> Certification # PD-1915A, Certified Feb 17, 2009, Expires Jun 30, 2012
> 
> Funny thing is sunrise if you would of checked my Bio & then looked in the membership listing you would of seen Im not pulling your chain......Im listed in there as a professional member & Certified Arborist!
> 
> ...



Thanks, Keith. It's no big deal, Mr. Long. I was just starting to wonder about your certification since you were talking so much :censored: about the ISA's CEU requirements and you seem so against keeping up with new developments in our chosen profession. Just about every CA I know enjoys learning new things about tree-related research issues, so your attitude struck me as, decidedly, strange. Anyway, no hard feelings.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> I fordot they changed western chapter from WC to WE.
> WE7624A. Now try.
> Jeff



It's a hit.


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## lxt (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Thanks, Keith. It's no big deal, Mr. Long. I was just starting to wonder about your certification since you were talking so much :censored: about the ISA's CEU requirements and you seem so against keeping up with new developments in our chosen profession. Just about every CA I know enjoys learning new things about tree-related research issues, so your attitude struck me as, decidedly, strange. Anyway, no hard feelings.




No hard feelings taken, we`re all in this together, I was just voicing an opinion...I did not mean to offend anyone, BUT....many times on here some come across (me too) a little brash!

I just feel like this: I love this trade, Im a little on the traditional side as far as the "up through the ranks type" I just hate it when a trade especially ours has so many organizations/ unions & other entities reaching in our pockets!

Im not against learning...by any means, in a trade/career that is tough enough on ya physically, not to mention expensive (our toys arent cheap!) we will go above & beyond by obtaining Certs, pesticide/herb, CDL, etc.. that I truly feel we are worth much more!

In my area a utility tree trimmer will make anywhere from $18-$22 hr, residential guys make far less, $12- $14....My little company actually pays good.....& our service is good, so the point im making is: we put our heart & souls into it, dream about it even, So how about making the continuing path of keeping the cert as least pocket invasive & time consuming as possible?

No matter what our opinions & even though they vary less/greater...we still have a duty of stewardship in our profession weather certified or not, & above all......we have people who love us, so lets make it home safe every day!


LXT....................


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## clearance (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> What certifying body is that from? I know ACRT certifies, but I haven't seen that format. Just wondering----



British Columbia, Canada, trade certificate number, trade-utility arborist.


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## mckeetree (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> No hard feelings taken, we`re all in this together, I was just voicing an opinion...I did not mean to offend anyone, BUT....many times on here some come across (me too) a little brash!
> 
> I just feel like this: I love this trade, Im a little on the traditional side as far as the "up through the ranks type" I just hate it when a trade especially ours has so many organizations/ unions & other entities reaching in our pockets!
> 
> ...




I will keep an open mind to other people's post about the ISA. As for as ISA goes you are as certified an arborist as I am. And I won't print your post out. No hard feelings.


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> No hard feelings taken, we`re all in this together, I was just voicing an opinion...I did not mean to offend anyone, BUT....many times on here some come across (me too) a little brash!
> 
> I just feel like this: I love this trade, Im a little on the traditional side as far as the "up through the ranks type" I just hate it when a trade especially ours has so many organizations/ unions & other entities reaching in our pockets!
> 
> ...




Good post,LXT, I think it depends on where you want to take your cert. I remember back in the day when residential was making bank. Not today. Utility was someone wants long term steady. Not in this stage of 49 states with unemployment and budget defecits. Nowadays you need to follow the money and to back-up your company to compete. I stay away from residetial and utility as well as any job that requires prevailing wage. That is just the unions making sure we bid apples to apples. I think it just depends on if you think the cert. is worth it. In some cases it is.
Jeff


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 22, 2009)

lxt said:


> No hard feelings taken, we`re all in this together, I was just voicing an opinion...I did not mean to offend anyone, BUT....many times on here some come across (me too) a little brash!
> 
> I just feel like this: I love this trade, Im a little on the traditional side as far as the "up through the ranks type" I just hate it when a trade especially ours has so many organizations/ unions & other entities reaching in our pockets!
> 
> ...


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## NCTREE (Oct 24, 2009)

I guess I don't want tp be left out or give you guys a reason to believe that i'm full of :censored: PD-1882A. I've been reluctant to give this info out for the reason that there's lurkers out there reading everything you right. I'm afraid someone in the area is going use the stuff I write against when bidding. Lets face it you can learn alot about someone just from what they say.


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## NCTREE (Oct 24, 2009)

Also those pictures that for some reason aren't viewable any more were taken by me because I was across the street doing work for one of my customers when a tree truck pulls up. I was heartbroken to see what this guy did to these trees, they were beautiful full healthy red maples and that was the end result. These pictures are just another tool to show my customers what they don't want trees to look like.

Whatever people think of me on here is their personal prerogative. I gotten pissy and even jumped the gun once or twice with people on here for :censored: they have posted. Everyone has good and bad days, in the town I work i'm just an above average tree guy amongst a sea of hacks trying to make it. 

I know i'm off the subject just had to get that out.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 24, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> I guess I don't want tp be left out or give you guys a reason to believe that i'm full of :censored: PD-1882A. I've been reluctant to give this info out for the reason that there's lurkers out there reading everything you right. I'm afraid someone in the area is going use the stuff I write against when bidding. Lets face it you can learn alot about someone just from what they say.



This may take this thread in a whole new direction. I think the subject of anonymity on the internet is one many think about, at times. I feel that certain areas of the net should cause a poster to be on guard. Political forums, talk of religion and other "touchy" subjects are probably better discussed without giving one's true identity. In here, I feel I'm among my peers and that we're all in it together. While some things we talk about in here, like pita clients and goofy things homeowners do on their own, might conceivably be used against us if somehow published in the mass media, the odds of anyone wanting to do that is slim. Even if such things got "out there," I cannot recall any of us ever giving names, addresses, etc., of anyone we disparage, in most cases, so there wouldn't be much reason to go to the trouble to "out" someone's posts, in here, to the public.

Now I did mention that I "outted" a guy, in here, who was talking about companies he was going to turn in to OSHA. He was going to take pictures of violations and such, on job sites. I felt he should have come clean as to where he was and who he was before he posted stuff like that. Once I traced him using his posted CA#, and posted his name, company and location, he disappeared from this forum. Now he may be back on here with another sn, but I don't know. 

If someone is against using their true identity in here, that's their business. If they start posting stuff like the guy I just mentioned, then it becomes another matter, as I see it.

-Miles


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## treevet (Oct 24, 2009)

I agree w Sunrise. If you want to be anonymous that is just fine but if you are going to be inflammatory and vindictive then most everyone is gonna want to know where/what the source of all this trouble is. I am a very honest person and take pride in that. It goes along with that to not hide in the bushes and snipe at people.

One of the greatest things about these forums is you can talk shop and laugh and commiserate and share trade secrets with peers and not usually have to worry about them taking a key job or client away from you.


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## NCTREE (Oct 24, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> This may take this thread in a whole new direction. I think the subject of anonymity on the internet is one many think about, at times. I feel that certain areas of the net should cause a poster to be on guard. Political forums, talk of religion and other "touchy" subjects are probably better discussed without giving one's true identity. In here, I feel I'm among my peers and that we're all in it together. While some things we talk about in here, like pita clients and goofy things homeowners do on their own, might conceivably be used against us if somehow published in the mass media, the odds of anyone wanting to do that is slim. Even if such things got "out there," I cannot recall any of us ever giving names, addresses, etc., of anyone we disparage, in most cases, so there wouldn't be much reason to go to the trouble to "out" someone's posts, in here, to the public.
> 
> Now I did mention that I "outted" a guy, in here, who was talking about companies he was going to turn in to OSHA. He was going to take pictures of violations and such, on job sites. I felt he should have come clean as to where he was and who he was before he posted stuff like that. Once I traced him using his posted CA#, and posted his name, company and location, he disappeared from this forum. Now he may be back on here with another sn, but I don't know.
> 
> ...



I would never wish OSHA on anyone, nor would I threaten OSHA on someone. That to me is punk :censored: This is a discussion forum and their is going to debates, if you are going to post something you have to be able to handle criticism. the only thing I'm guilty of is speaking my mind.

My problem with revealing identity is someone is lurking out there who may live in my area and may never become a member or post anything but knows who I am now and reads everything I write. He is learning how I do things and could use that against me when bidding or to talk me down. I think non members shouldn't be able to enter this discussion forum and members should have to verify who they are when they sign up.


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 24, 2009)

*Password access to this part of AS?*



NCTREE said:


> (snip) I think non members shouldn't be able to enter this discussion forum and members should have to verify who they are when they sign up.



Interesting idea. I know there are forums on medical discussion sites which only MD's and other medical professionals can access by verified passwords. To make this part of AS a password-only access area might be a good idea, but then it might not be. What do the rest of you guys/gals think about this?


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## clearance (Oct 24, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> This site is supported by advertisers so I don't think it's a good idea.
> 
> If people don't want their info out there then they shouldn't post it.



I agree, you got something to say, say it. When push came to shove here, two years back, I said who I was. Maybe not the smartest thing I ever did, but it was important to me.


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 24, 2009)

I remember ISA had a chat forum. Had to be a member to post. Unless I dreamed it, it did not last long.
Jeff


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## Tree Dr. (Oct 24, 2009)

*Isa cert is worth it for me*

I attended the National Isa confrence in providence, learned a bunch and got ceus. I am currently scrambling to finnish my ceus for 2nd recert. It is some work but it makes sense that it should get harder and you should need to learn more to maintain certification. The certification test was too easy in my opinion. More knowledge allows you to offer much bettter services and quality and keeps the work more interesting. I cringe when I see the pruning performed by some outfits in this area claiming "professionally trained'' or some other bs. ISA cert may not be needed for every business but it has made me far more professional and improved the bottom line. My advice is do your homework you may be surprised how you put that info to use.


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## treeseer (Oct 25, 2009)

Tree Dr. said:


> I attended the National Isa confrence in providence, learned a bunch and got ceus. I am currently scrambling to finnish my ceus for 2nd recert. It is some work but it makes sense that it should get harder and you should need to learn more to maintain certification. The certification test was too easy in my opinion. More knowledge allows you to offer much bettter services and quality and keeps the work more interesting. I cringe when I see the pruning performed by some outfits in this area claiming "professionally trained'' or some other bs. ISA cert may not be needed for every business but it has made me far more professional and improved the bottom line. My advice is do your homework you may be surprised how you put that info to use.


Paonia, thanks for speaking up--excellent post, let's hope lxt has his ears on. I'm not happy about the test being dumbed down, but it is what it is--go to Massachusetts or move up to the BCMA if you want to take a more challenging test! Yes certs got fragmented; they were bound to--lots of people doing arborist work when they are not wearing saddles.

Re the derail, clearance did well to come out because he was making a lot of noise; some reasonable some not imo. Frankly I hope my local competition reads what I post, and ups their game. I don't have big crews to keep busy anymore but i understand that concern, to a point. The old ISA site was before my time, but i hear it went down due to unregulated flaming. 

Here the moderators (I'm told) are not compensated, the site spins off e-zines written by writers that they refuse to pay (take a wild guess about the quality and reliability of THAT information), so a lot of the $ from all those blinking icons up there goes into the owners' pockets. lxt, you were talking about ripoffs....?


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## treevet (Oct 25, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Here the moderators (I'm told) are not compensated, the site spins off e-zines written by writers that they refuse to pay (take a wild guess about the quality and reliability of THAT information), so a lot of the $ from all those blinking icons up there goes into the owners' pockets. lxt, you were talking about ripoffs....?



Did you just call the owner of this forum you post on and derive information from (for free)...... a 

"Rip Off Artist" ?


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## ckliff (Oct 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> Did you just call the owner of this forum you post on and derive information from (for free)...... a
> 
> "Rip Off Artist" ?



Wouldn't let me rep ya on that one, but yeah, that's the way I took it too.:jawdrop:


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## mckeetree (Oct 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> Did you just call the owner of this forum you post on and derive information from (for free)...... a
> 
> "Rip Off Artist" ?



Well, who would have thought it? Talk about somebody needing to come "out."


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## Blakesmaster (Oct 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Well, who would have thought it? Talk about somebody needing to come "out."



I know I've spent a ton of money on those little icons at the top of the page these past two years, but I've also made a lot of money because of this site too. Fair trade, IMO.


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## treeseer (Oct 25, 2009)

Nah, keep your undies unbunched; the point was, isa has to take in for what they put out, and if they get extra, it goes back into making more. Compare that to any other kind of org, biz, anything but the federal gummint has to break even or die. Look at expenses and income and make up your own mind who's ripping what off where when and how.

That's all. :fart:


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## treevet (Oct 25, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Look at expenses and income and make up your own mind who's ripping what off where when and how.



Who's on first?


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## treeseer (Oct 25, 2009)

treevet said:


> Who's on first?


Ex-VP Richard Cheney and his Haliburton company--$10 billion off the Iraq war--I mean, exercise in democracy--, and counting.

What's on second? opcorn:


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## treevet (Oct 26, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Ex-VP Richard Cheney and his Haliburton company--$10 billion off the Iraq war--I mean, exercise in democracy--, and counting.
> 
> What's on second? opcorn:



I don't know....third

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml


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## outofmytree (Oct 26, 2009)

treevet said:


> I don't know....third
> 
> http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml



Argh. Like a fool I clicked on that link and was magically transported back in time to black and white tv and comedy that didn't involve profanity, nudity or bigotry.

Then I came back here.....


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## treevet (Oct 26, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Argh. Like a fool I clicked on that link and was magically transported back in time to black and white tv and comedy that didn't involve profanity, nudity or bigotry.
> 
> Then I came back here.....



It ain't that bad here John. Off to work c ya.

PS couple of old dinosaurs (me and seer)


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