# Knot question



## propliner (May 24, 2009)

What kind of knots work best for tying off a chunk to be lowered using a block? What works best for speed, security and ease of untieing? I'm looking for some new (possibly better) ideas. 

Pictures would be great.


----------



## Macclay (May 24, 2009)

bowline, the only way to go.


----------



## Tree Pig (May 24, 2009)

bowline backed up with a half hitch to prevent slipping. 

Anyone else here stick a piece of whatever in the backbone of the bowline knot to prevent it from locking up too much.


----------



## mrowens33 (May 24, 2009)

*?what about a clove hitch*

Why not a clove hitch with two half hitches to finish it off? 
That's from Tree climbers companion page 75


----------



## Tree Pig (May 24, 2009)

mrowens33 said:


> Why not a clove hitch with two half hitches to finish it off?
> That's from Tree climbers companion page 75



Ya know when I read the post were he said running from a block for some reason I was assuming he was talking about piecing out the stump and rigging the block off same stump, hence the reason I said bowline with half hitch.

But if your talking about just tying off and lowering average size pieces from a block secured from crotch above (or whatever you have) then thats different.
In that case if I was butt hitching yeah prolly use clove and half hitch. Tip tying may be a running bowline. Sometimes using a properly rated sling is much easier and faster.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (May 24, 2009)

Bowlines, Cloves, Timbers etc. (even backed up ones) should most properly pull perpendicular to the load (to be inline / not leveraged to themselves as they lock on the load). Alternatively, to pull along the length/inline to load (like when something hangs from one end, not balanced in the middle) we should precede with marl or half hitch to correct the mechanics (of not pulling perpendicular to load with one of the lacings listed), and as 2nd/ fail safe grab on said load. i'll try to dawg each grab at swell, branching or even cut small humboldt to bed line in, and lock against hang of own weight.

On regular branchings, i prefer sling/krab/to rope eye (even if a temporary eye of DBY).


----------



## bonker81 (May 24, 2009)

a killick hitch (a timber hitch with a half hitch added) great rigging hitch, very easy to make and break


----------



## tree MDS (May 24, 2009)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> Bowlines, Cloves, Timbers etc. (even backed up ones) should most properly pull perpendicular to the load (to be inline / not leveraged to themselves as they lock on the load). Alternatively, to pull along the length/inline to load (like when something hangs from one end, not balanced in the middle) we should precede with marl or half hitch to correct the mechanics (of not pulling perpendicular to load with one of the lacings listed), and as 2nd/ fail safe grab on said load. i'll try to dawg each grab at swell, branching or even cut small humboldt to bed line in, and lock against hang of own weight.
> 
> On regular branchings, i prefer sling/krab/to rope eye (even if a temporary eye of DBY).



What??

Alright...I'm busting it out


----------



## ozzy42 (May 24, 2009)

clove hitch with a 1/2 hitch added if there is possibility of the rope slipping off the end of the pc,otherwise running bowline for the other stuff.


----------



## D Mc (May 24, 2009)

propliner said:


> What kind of knots work best for tying off a chunk to be lowered using a block? What works best for speed, security and ease of untieing? I'm looking for some new (possibly better) ideas.
> 
> Pictures would be great.



For speed and security, you are going to be hard pressed to beat the old standbys of a running bowline or timber hitch backed up with a half hitch for chunks. The timber hitch has fallen out of favor but like all knots, if applied properly in the right situation will perform as required.

If you are just lowering moderate sized limbs that have forks or crotches that would prevent the lowering line from slipping off, a simple running bowline will suffice and will be faster to undo than adding the extra half hitch. The secret of ensuring that the bowline unties easily is in the setting of the knot.

The clove hitch and its cousin, the constrictor, are good knots but not for this usage (IMO). They are better used as in-line hitches, such as tying on a water bottle or some such. 

For knot information you are not going to find a better or more informed site than the Spyder's.

Dave


----------



## Tree Pig (May 24, 2009)

D Mc said:


> For speed and security, you are going to be hard pressed to beat the old standbys of a running bowline or timber hitch backed up with a half hitch for chunks. The timber hitch has fallen out of favor but like all knots, if applied properly in the right situation will perform as required.
> 
> If you are just lowering moderate sized limbs that have forks or crotches that would prevent the lowering line from slipping off, a simple running bowline will suffice and will be faster to undo than adding the extra half hitch. The secret of ensuring that the bowline unties easily is in the setting of the knot.
> 
> ...



butt hitching with the clove is nice because it can be slipped off the butt easy making untying very fast.


----------



## D Mc (May 24, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> butt hitching with the clove is nice because it can be slipped off the butt easy making untying very fast.



You will get no argument from me on this point. The problem with the clove hitch is that it is a rolling hitch by itself dependent on the half hitch to keep it from rolling. This apparently confuses many people for it is one of the most common hitches to have fail. 

Both the running bowline and the timber hitch, when set in the proper direction, lock without rolling. 

Dave


----------



## bonker81 (May 24, 2009)

D Mc said:


> For speed and security, you are going to be hard pressed to beat the old standbys of a running bowline or timber hitch backed up with a half hitch for chunks.



The timber hitch with the half hitch is called a killick hitch. It is a wonderful hitch that as you stated has been forgotten. It provides excellent control and can be used in all manner of situations...as long as the load on the line stays parallel to the line. This hitch works very well on things like lumber and pipe also.


----------



## Tree Pig (May 24, 2009)

D Mc said:


> You will get no argument from me on this point. The problem with the clove hitch is that it is a rolling hitch by itself dependent on the half hitch to keep it from rolling. This apparently confuses many people for it is one of the most common hitches to have fail.
> 
> Both the running bowline and the timber hitch, when set in the proper direction, lock without rolling.
> 
> Dave



yep but on heavy stuff when the bowline locks it really locks. Dont get me wrong I use more then anything else most likely but whoever quoted the bowline as easy to untie was full of crap (at least when its placed under a good load.)


----------



## Metals406 (May 24, 2009)

Not a tree service guy or climber, but I have used the timber hitch backed up with the half hitch.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (May 24, 2009)

(In Metals46 diagram)Notice how in the first 2 shots, the line pulls perpendicular to log in Timber Hitch, but in the 3rd shot line pulls inline/ pairallell to log in Killick, this is all correct; and what i mean by preceding with marl or Half. When someone says backed up, i think of backed up, like backing up a Clove with an Overhand or some other tuck > After the 'Bitter' Point/End. Notice too in the formation of a better Timber/Killick, After the eye, the line serves over, then under the tensioned lien to trap. This, places the trap/ nip where it will get more positive clamping pressure to secure. The rest of the Turns around the line should continue to just past half way, and all ways trap into the spar at decisively convex locations.


Slipped Constrictor, or almost a Clove, and stop 1 step before and trap as Constrictor/ or Same Slipped (kinda like GroundLine with last step/tuck reversed) are all very fair friends, but are best if preceded by a correcting Marl or Half Hitch if inline pull on spar/log along it's length, rather than across it's short axis (and balanced if hanging).

Not all lacings best in all lines, you wouldn't put a bowline in mono etc.


----------



## outofmytree (May 25, 2009)

I know the question was which "knot" do you use to secure lowering loads but just to add another option, we use steel screwgate krabs for all lowering. It's my preference for speed of attaching or detaching, ease of inspection prior to cutting and as a nice bonus the krab makes a good weight for throwing the line.


----------



## Saw Dust Smoken (May 25, 2009)

*bowline*

Twice around branch(smooth barked limbs) and tuck your tail into one of your bowline loops. I never use a half hitch on large logs. Twice the half hitch cut right through rope on heavy log lowering. Bowline easier to undo then all the timber knot loops under rope.


----------



## md_tree_dood (May 26, 2009)

i like a half hitch and a running bowline. I can't see how you could tie a clove hitch faster than a running bowline. I only use clove hitches to take multiple branches or to drop out tops so I can piece them out when I can't reach with the bucket


----------



## tree md (May 27, 2009)

I use a running bowline probably 98% of the time but when I do block a chunk that I'm worried might slip I use a clove hitch with a half hitch.

I've never lost one yet (knock on wood).


----------



## Metals406 (May 27, 2009)

tree md said:


> I use a running bowline probably 98% of the time but when I do block a chunk that I'm worried might slip I use a clove hitch with a half hitch.



Can you do a "running bowline" by just tying a small bowline, and feeding a loop through? Looks like the same concept?

P.S. It's been many years since the Cub Scouts.


----------



## tree md (May 27, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Can you do a "running bowline" by just tying a small bowline, and feeding a loop through? Looks like the same concept?
> 
> P.S. It's been many years since the Cub Scouts.



Here's how I was taught:

Working end of rope = Tree

Running end of rope = Limb

With the working end (tree) make a 6 (or take a bite). Go around the limb (running end or standing part) with the working end, up though the 6, around the tree and back down through the 6. Pull the tree and the two ends running through the 6 to dress. Got that??? 

Sorry, I can explain it a lot better if I can show you in person.


----------



## Metals406 (May 27, 2009)

tree md said:


> Here's how I was taught:
> 
> Working end of rope = Tree
> 
> ...



Trying it with my tree (boot) right now!


----------



## Metals406 (May 27, 2009)

I'm all messed up! From your description all I get is a regular Bowline, and not a Running Bowline.


----------



## tree md (May 27, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> I'm all messed up! From your description all I get is a regular Bowline, and not a Running Bowline.



Give me a minute, I've got a rope in a tree now. I'll take some pics.


----------



## pdqdl (May 27, 2009)

*You guys are not describing advantages to each knot*

There are lots of good comments above, but for the most part, no one is pointing out the functional differences between the knots.

*Bowline, or running bowline*: good, reliable knot that many climbers tie so fast they don't think about it anymore (advantage). Disadvantage: when rigging a pulley, it does not lend itself to finishing the rope at the right length, leaving more slack to the line holding the pulley. Slower to untie than methods below, and it can become difficult to untie if pulled hard enough.
*
Clove Hitch*: Very strong, and simple to tie (advantage). Disadvantage: this knot is NOT designed to take a sideways load, and can unwind off the tree if loaded with a pulley. If preceded by a marl, that problem would be handled, but it still takes up two full turns of rope around the trunk of the tree. That is a problem on a bigger trunk, especially since it's reliability (against side pull and unrolling) declines as the size of the trunk increases.
*
Timber hitch* (my personal favorite): Very strong, and simple to tie. Cannot be made to bind up, no matter how much it is loaded, and it will never unroll off the tree (BIG advantage). Disadvantage: It requires a bit of experience to tie properly, and uses a bit more rope than a running bowline on larger tree trunks. Because it requires rigging correctly, it must be considered less reliable than a running bowline. It's biggest disadvantage is that it is SO simple to tie, most climbers won't trust it to hold (advantage?)

*Stilson Hitch *(not previously mentioned): this is a very secure hitch that is almost fail-proof, and it can be attached very close to the top of a spar without fear of shaking loose. It will not bind up when heavily loaded. It is much tighter and more secure than any of the above methods, even when they are combined with a marl. It is best used when tying to some log or spar that might be exposed to twisting or stretching in different directions (usually the log being lowered). I prefer it for short, large diameter log sections that might slip out of the other hitches before the "choker" draws tight(advantages). Disadvantage: This takes up a LOT of rope to tie, and it takes a bit more time to tie. Groundmen take forever to untie it when is is used to attach to the log being lowered, because the heavy log is laying on several turns of rope.


----------



## Tree Pig (May 27, 2009)

Try this link ISA cd training demo, when the link opens click on CLIMIBING up top then KNOTS in left column advance forward to running bowline and has a great example. 

http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/TreeWorkerSafety/Tree_Worker_Safety_content.html


----------



## Metals406 (May 27, 2009)

My suspicions were correct! All a "running bowline" is, is a regular old bowline, with the standing part of the rope fed through the bowline loop.


----------



## pdqdl (May 27, 2009)

Nice link Stihl-O-Matic!

I noticed that most of their pulleys in the ISA videos were set with what they are calling a cow hitch, mostly the same thing as a Stilson Hitch.


----------



## tree md (May 27, 2009)

Sorry, took me a few. I had to eat super and hustle up some batteries. 

Here it is. Like pdqdl said though, it's disadvantage is that it's not easy to tie it where there is no slack. I have heard of some tying the knot first and then setting their block to compensate for that disadvantage before but I have always found it easier to just tie a clove hitch and back in up with a half hitch if there is a concearn about slippage or slack. The advantages are that it is a common knot that most climbers can tie upside down in their sleep and you can tie it and run it where you need to and it's easy for the groundman to pull to him and pick apart. Plus you can untie it relatively easy after it has been loaded.


----------



## tree md (May 27, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> My suspicions were correct! All a "running bowline" is, is a regular old bowline, with the standing part of the rope fed through the bowline loop.



Doh! I see you already got it. That's me, always a day late and a dollar short!


----------



## Metals406 (May 27, 2009)

Thanks tree md!!

I also just tried the Stilson Hitch, and it seems waaay better than a timber hitch!

Although, I still like the Timber Hitch backed with a Half Hitch.


----------



## pdqdl (May 28, 2009)

Like I said:



pdqdl said:


> Timber hitch[/B] (my personal favorite): ... It's biggest disadvantage is that it is SO simple to tie, most climbers won't trust it to hold (advantage?)



Use it a bit more, especially with a marl in front of it, and you will kick that Stilson to the curb except on very short, fat logs.

Incidentally, I never put five twists in my timber hitches, unless on a huge log. And I often put a "slip" on the backside to facilitate untying it.


----------



## Metals406 (May 28, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Like I said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you make a video of you tying this "marl" and "slip"? Piece of firewood would work to tie it on.

I'm really getting into this knot and hitch thing... And I don't even climb! Hahaha LOL

Still good stuff to have under your belt though.


----------



## Rftreeman (May 28, 2009)

I usually wrap the rope several times and drive nails through it in to the chunk, works like a charm every time but is a PITA to untie.























just kidding, I use a running bowline most of the time and sometimes I'll take and extra wrap for good measure.


----------



## pdqdl (May 28, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Can you make a video of you tying this "marl" and "slip"? Piece of firewood would work to tie it on.
> 
> I'm really getting into this knot and hitch thing... And I don't even climb! Hahaha LOL
> 
> Still good stuff to have under your belt though.



Well...I could. But that would take time & effort. I'll see about that.

The "marl" is just a different name for what YOU posted in a graphic above: some folks call that a "half-hitch". I think on a purely technical basis, "half-hitch" only describes the way the knot is formed, and "marl" defines both the knot and how it is used. The graphic you posted above is almost exactly how I tie most of my log drops, although I tend to skimp on the number of turns in the timber hitch.

"Slipping" the timber hitch would be done by doing (however many turns you plan) around to at least the backside of the log, but do it by tucking a loop under the loaded wrap instead of pulling the whole tail of the rope through. Make sure the "slipped" rotations are all further around the log than you need for holding the load. 

When the log gets to the ground, loosen the eye and pull the tail; Voila! 1-3 slipped turns are yanked out in a moment. Trying to "slip" more than 3 turns becomes too difficult to tie, so there is no point in doing that. I usually only slip 1-2 turns; but then I usually only use 2-3 turns total on my timber hitches.


----------



## TheTreeSpyder (May 30, 2009)

Ummmmmmmmm; if you slip a preceding Half Hitch off the end of a spar, it melts to nothing, for it is just a loop crossing itself. But, if you slip a Marl off the end of a spar, it doesn't just melt to nothing whenst you pull the ends, but rather an OverHand Knot is left in the line. The Half is simpler to do, simpler to undo etc. but less secure, but probably deforms line less so is probably statically stronger, but also allows more slip friction conversions of impact force to heat to possibly be stronger in dynamic conditions as well. The Marl is more secure,takes more time to set properly, but the left over Overhand in the line can sometimes get in the way, but; can also be returned to climber thru pulley quicker> without fear of line running out of pulley(knot stops it), especially if has a slip in it too if lying way high and fast (to keep from 'jamming' or at least less frustrating..). It jest depends on what ya need.

To further confuse things, if you make a Half Hitch like not a preceding Half, but rather like the first pic in Metals046 line drawing.......and pull it from each end; it inverts to a Marl, for this type of Half Hitch does leave an Over Hand Knot in line if slipped off the end of the spar!

Speaking of which, it is best not to start a timber like this(Half Hitch, whereby after making the eye around the Standing, you immeidately go under the line-at the point of least 'pinch'), but rather crossing over, then under to start 'loose braid/ temporary eye splice' to secure. This reduces the line tension by friction of contact and pinch, before the first trapping of the line; and then also places that first trapping/'nipping' of the line further away from the 'teepee' that gives least security. Each Turn gives more friction reduction to line tension (to trap easier) and then until you come around half way (inline with Standing Part) where figuratively the most 'pinch'/ trap/ 'nipping' of the line is (assuming all contacts on convex locations on spar). 

5 Tucks on Timber isn't required, just suggested, but would give significant friction reductions, and travel to hopefully firm final pinch/nip to secure.

Strength(retention)wise, it is best to take a Round Turn, rather than a Simple Turn around the Standing Part. Anything bends/deforms the Standing (leading to 'capacity loss' because line can only support on the inline axis, not on the cosine/across axis, so is 'strength' is reduced or forces leveraged higher that are carried within the rope device ). This (Round Turn) strategy can work against ya, if the direction of the pull changes, because the system then can't self adjust to minimal forces as well (ie slide around as easily to be inline with changing pull direction).


----------



## pdqdl (May 31, 2009)

regarding 1/2 hitch vs Marl: I defer to your greater knowledge, and I stand corrected. 

For those of you who don't quite get it, a 1/2 hitch goes half way around the rope it forms a loop with. A marl goes a full circle round, less the small amount lost in the change in direction between the bitter end and the standing end. 


(I did check up on you, TreeSpyder, and I used your website to find the answer!)


----------

