# Judge overturns State/Cal Fire findings



## dhskier2 (Jan 21, 2015)

Judge over rules findings and orders Cal Fire pay $32M.
Sierra Pacific possibly going after fed's to get money back


http://spectator.org/articles/61516/was-sierra-pacific-victim-government-shakedown


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## madhatte (Jan 21, 2015)

Wow, that's big. I will be interested to see the fallout of this case as well as the result of other cases using this as a precedent.


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## 2dogs (Jan 21, 2015)

This happened over a year ago but it is the news because Kamala Harris will in all likelihood be elected to Barbara Boxer's seat. This topic was discussed in the Fire thread.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/02/06...0-million-for-conduct-in-moonlight-fire-case/


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## dhskier2 (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks. Any word on the present status, or is this article of current info?


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## Gologit (Jan 21, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> Thanks. Any word on the present status, or is this article of current info?



http://www.spi-ind.com/


Look at the headings under Breaking News on the home page. SPI is pissed off at the way they were treated by CalFire. I don't blame them.


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## Joe46 (Jan 21, 2015)

I have heard that a LARGE Eastern Wa. grower offered to help the state with some of their equipment during the Carlton Complex fire( The largest in the history of the state). These guys have D7-9 size Cats. The state turned them down because they weren't certified/qualified. I have no proof, but that was the word on the street.


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## slowp (Jan 21, 2015)

Joe46 said:


> I have heard that a LARGE Eastern Wa. grower offered to help the state with some of their equipment during the Carlton Complex fire( The largest in the history of the state). These guys have D7-9 size Cats. The state turned them down because they weren't certified/qualified. I have no proof, but that was the word on the street.



There are lots of rumors from that event. Lawsuits are being filed. Plus, the DNR apparently paid quite a chunk of change to a large orchard conglomerate for equipment and time. They had connections with the state land commissioner. Hmmmm, might that be another rumor about the same thing only a story of the opposite? Lots of rumors--probably years of litigation are to be had.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 22, 2015)

wow, serious shtuff...but not surprising at all. FDR's admin did this sort of thing to the mining industry, among others, in the late 30s and into WW2.
Harris would just be litterBoxer on steroids...just lovely. This news just might help Carly a tad.


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## BeatCJ (Jan 22, 2015)

Joe46 said:


> I have heard that a LARGE Eastern Wa. grower offered to help the state with some of their equipment during the Carlton Complex fire( The largest in the history of the state). These guys have D7-9 size Cats. The state turned them down because they weren't certified/qualified. I have no proof, but that was the word on the street.


I was there later, from the people I worked with that were there in the beginning I believe there is an element of truth, BUT... all stories are told from a point of view.


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## Joe46 (Jan 22, 2015)

Agreed Ms. Patty and BeatCJ which is why I generally don't like posting hearsay, and I'm sorry I posted this without knowing the "real"truth.


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## slowp (Jan 22, 2015)

One of the people who has been on a sound bite, is not the most reliable either. I worked with him eons ago.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 22, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> I was there later, from the people I worked with that were there in the beginning I believe there is an element of truth, BUT... all stories are told from a point of view.


the Cali FS does have that rule. Even if you are a veteran feller or have tons of chainsaw experience (ie, enough to teach the fkin' class) you have to take their 2-day certification class just to help clear 4x4 trails.


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## Gologit (Jan 22, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> the Cali FS does have that rule. Even if you are a veteran feller or have tons of chainsaw experience (ie, enough to teach the fkin' class) you have to take their 2-day certification class just to help clear 4x4 trails.



Do you mean the USFS or CalFire? Their requirements are quite a bit different from each other.


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## 2dogs (Jan 22, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> the Cali FS does have that rule. Even if you are a veteran feller or have tons of chainsaw experience (ie, enough to teach the fkin' class) you have to take their 2-day certification class just to help clear 4x4 trails.


I don't know about 4X4 trails but to be a hired faller for Cal Fire for fire work you only have to take the annual hired equipment safety class. This is a one day classroom/shelter deployment session and then you go through the contract signing/equipment inspection on another day. S-130/190 is not a requirement nor is a pack test. At least that was through contract period 2014. Just yesterday I received my first e-mail regarding the 2015-2017 contract period and no changes were noted but Cal Fire's requirements can be a moving target. BTW most safety classes run March through May.

There is no requirement to provide expertise or experience with Cal Fire. When you sign your contract you are telling Cal Fire (and the USFS) that you can do the job. Whoever you are assigned to will fill out the evaluation portion of the paperwork. If you do a poor job it will be noted. Fallers have to provide their own PPE, vehicle, saws, etc. They do not have to provide a radio, Cal Fire will provide one.

I am sure there will be some changes for the 2015-2017 period and I will post them here when I find out what they are. IIRC the last contract period pay was $967.00/day for the Faller Module, that is a Faller/Swamper team. Unless you work lots of days the money isn't great. This year should be little better.


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## 2dogs (Jan 22, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Do you mean the USFS or CalFire? Their requirements are quite a bit different from each other.


The safety training is the same but that is about it.

Edited to add: That is what I have heard only. I have not worked for the USFS.


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## slowp (Jan 22, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> the Cali FS does have that rule. Even if you are a veteran feller or have tons of chainsaw experience (ie, enough to teach the fkin' class) you have to take their 2-day certification class just to help clear 4x4 trails.



Yes you do have to be certified to do VOLUNTEER work on trails using chainsaws or crosscut saws for that matter with the USFS. I think that's a good idea. A lot of people THINK they are experts and could teach the "fkin" class but they really aren't and couldn't. That's exactly why there is a certification process. It gets everybody on the same wavelength as far as safety goes. Safety is the most important aspect of the certification. They don't want folks who do stupid, unsafe things. We are not production cutters, we are volunteers who do what we can, and in a safe manner. We don't get as much done as a production cutter could, but what we do is better than nothing. We are not even supposed to be doing any falling. We are buckers.

The whole certification process was started after there was a series of falling accidents in the 1980s.

There is a difference between the classifications and the recertification requirements. The group I volunteer with is quite a large one and got the go ahead from the USFS to do their own certification. Instead of going through it every year, they go every other year and you are either an A bucker (trainee) or B bucker (good for any size). I've been B certified for chainsaw use and A certified for crosscut use. There's a lot to learn with the latter...

You also need to have a current First Aid and CPR card.


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## slowp (Jan 22, 2015)

On the Carlton Complex, two guys were arrested. I heard of another "backfiring" attempt by panicked landowners that almost trapped a fire crew. 

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/aug/14/more-arrested-in-connection-with-carlton-complex/


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 22, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Do you mean the USFS or CalFire? Their requirements are quite a bit different from each other.





2dogs said:


> The safety training is the same but that is about it.
> 
> Edited to add: That is what I have heard only. I have not worked for the USFS.


I only know about the FS. The main beef is w/in the 4x4 community around here...have skills and tools but cannot use them w/o a certificate. This applies to pre-opening of trails or 'official' work days where the FS has something to do with putting it together. Some clubs that sponsor trails are stuck with the same rules as well. If I'm on an *open* trail and a tree is down...it goes away  If I lived anywhere near where they do the certifications I'd probably go but its a 2hr drive for me to any of them. I'm assuming it has something to do with liability.


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## 2dogs (Jan 22, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification Chris.


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 22, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Thanks for the clarification Chris.


I understand their rules...well, sort of...just don't like um


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## slowp (Jan 22, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> I only know about the FS. The main beef is w/in the 4x4 community around here...have skills and tools but cannot use them w/o a certificate. This applies to pre-opening of trails or 'official' work days where the FS has something to do with putting it together. Some clubs that sponsor trails are stuck with the same rules as well. If I'm on an *open* trail and a tree is down...it goes away  If I lived anywhere near where they do the certifications I'd probably go but its a 2hr drive for me to any of them. I'm assuming it has something to do with liability.



You are not officially volunteering when you cut out the occasional tree. Quite a bit of the motorized trails around here are opened up by the first rider in the spring. The minute you take part in an organized, sanctioned work day, the certification requirement kicks in. I've driven 3 hours one way to go to volunteer training and pulled a trailer to stay in. Most everywhere is at least 2 hours from here.


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## slowp (Jan 22, 2015)

http://www.pcta.org/volunteer/trail-skills-college/saw-training/


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## BeatCJ (Jan 22, 2015)

Joe46 said:


> Agreed Ms. Patty and BeatCJ which is why I generally don't like posting hearsay, and I'm sorry I posted this without knowing the "real"truth.


Joe, much of what you posted is true, but without context and details, not "truth". I won't say more here.

I don't think posting stuff like that as part of a web discussion is wrong. I think people that make decisions based only what they read on the Intardweb are foolish, so everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and I don't get upset when I see different ideas, thoughts or statements than what I understand. I think the free flow of conversation is probably more important than making everything follow rules like you might see in court testimony.

"The advice received on the Internet is worth exactly what you paid for it."


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## Gologit (Jan 23, 2015)

Joe46 said:


> I have heard that a LARGE Eastern Wa. grower offered to help the state with some of their equipment during the Carlton Complex fire( The largest in the history of the state). These guys have D7-9 size Cats. The state turned them down because they weren't certified/qualified. I have no proof, but that was the word on the street.



Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.


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## slowp (Jan 23, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
> I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
> I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.



And that's what usually gets done when a fire breaks out. I've felt kind of stupid, having to check on shovels and fire tools when there is a cat skidding in logs. Like they're going to park the cat and grab a shovel and dig a hand line? ......Right. 

What happens around here is to heck with the fire, get the yarder de rigged and out of harm's way unless the insurance money is more desirable.


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## Gologit (Jan 23, 2015)

Yup. Given a choice between a shovel and a D-6 I think I know which one I'd choose.
One year I had to buy all new shovels because the handles on the old ones had dried up from sitting in the fire box and the heads fell off when the inspector pulled them out. He didn't like my idea of just letting them soak in the creek or the water truck until they expanded and fit better. He was a good guy though and always inspected us on Friday afternoons so if he had to shut us down we didn't lose much time.


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## SliverPicker (Jan 23, 2015)

When a trail on federal land needs cleared around here it just mysteriously gets done.


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## BeatCJ (Jan 23, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Things like that have happened down here too. Readily available equipment and people weren't used because they weren't "signed up".
> I understand the various agencies wanting trained people and resources that they're familiar with. That makes sense. But when a fire starts across the road from where you're logging and you have a couple of Cats and a fire wagon right there anyway I don't think it makes sense to just sit on your butt and wait for "approval".
> I don't believe that untrained people should be starting backfires but cutting some line with a dozer or using your fire wagon to keep a small fire from spreading is just good stewardship.


Well, most of the equipment and fallers are hired from local contractors, not agency equipment. Different agencies, different rules. Feds use equipment that has been signed up, but the process to get on the dispatch list is ongoing. DNR has the ability to hire the guy across the street, but they are more likely to do that if they know you (unless you don't get along with them). I'm pretty sure, listening to them on the radio, they do have a list too, but it's on a regional basis.

I was told by one of our local guys that since I'm already an Engine Boss and Crew Boss,I should get qualified as a Falling Boss, and it was described as someone to do the fire line safety stuff for fallers, not to know ANYTHING about falling itself. Great, drive around in a pickup with a wickerbill hat. I'll pass, I spend enough time as a supervisor now.


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## 2dogs (Jan 23, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> Well, most of the equipment and fallers are hired from local contractors, not agency equipment. Different agencies, different rules. Feds use equipment that has been signed up, but the process to get on the dispatch list is ongoing. DNR has the ability to hire the guy across the street, but they are more likely to do that if they know you (unless you don't get along with them). I'm pretty sure, listening to them on the radio, they do have a list too, but it's on a regional basis.
> 
> I was told by one of our local guys that since I'm already an Engine Boss and Crew Boss,I should get qualified as a Falling Boss, and it was described as someone to do the fire line safety stuff for fallers, not to know ANYTHING about falling itself. Great, drive around in a pickup with a wickerbill hat. I'll pass, I spend enough time as a supervisor now.



There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.


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## slowp (Jan 23, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> When a trail on federal land needs cleared around here it just mysteriously gets done.



Quite a few do here. I've done a bit of stealth work along with The Used Dog. I'll even pack a small handsaw sometimes when going for a little hike. 

It was in the dark ages when I went on fires, but on one, I went as an engine slug and we worked with a falling crew. The falling boss was no where near a pickup and was busy packing some of the gear, helping drive in wedges sometimes, and keeping an eye on things.


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## Gologit (Jan 23, 2015)

2dogs said:


> There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.



Yup. You have to be able to trust your falling boss. If they've never been a faller I don't think I'd want them making decisions that affect me.


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## BeatCJ (Jan 24, 2015)

2dogs said:


> There is a hell of a lot more to being a Falling Boss than driving a pickup truck. The FB has the lives of many people at stake.


Yup, I get that. I didn't mean to offend, I said the same thing to the Falling Boss that suggested I should do it, because we are short in my area. He laughed at me, as intended. But he knows me, we work together on a somewhat regular basis.

I just looked at the tasks required for me to become a Felling Boss. None require much knowledge of actual felling to get checked off, "Ensure Inspection, Coordinate Action, Communicate with other crews". I'm not saying that I agree with what is in the Taskbook, but for NWCG, Felling Boss is a fireline supervisor, not a faller.


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## dhskier2 (Jan 27, 2015)

I thought felong boss (FELB) was taken out of circulation as a single resource position by NWCG? I suppose they could still have the position, just no longer at a "single resource" qual'd level?


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## madhatte (Jan 27, 2015)

Funny you should ask that, as I'm wondering the same. I have all of the tasks completed for FELB and nobody will sign it off for my Single Resource qual, even though I have CRWB, ENGB, DOZB, and FIRB on it and I am also carrying FALB. I think it's a liability thing, but I'm not sure.


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## dhskier2 (Jan 28, 2015)

madhatte said:


> Funny you should ask that, as I'm wondering the same. I have all of the tasks completed for FELB and nobody will sign it off for my Single Resource qual, even though I have CRWB, ENGB, DOZB, and FIRB on it and I am also carrying FALB. I think it's a liability thing, but I'm not sure.



I don't know the answer to this. The most recent single resource task book I fine is dated 2012, and FELB is there. I heard pre-2012 that it was no longer a single resource... so I don't know what the deal is.
Liability concern makes the most sense to me for no one signing of on it. Which is silly. A structured system of accreditation is in place, and you've done you've done your due diligence... yet someone is too nervous to formally acknowledge it.


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## dhskier2 (Jan 28, 2015)

It's CYA at its finest


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## madhatte (Jan 28, 2015)

That's the name of the game, sadly.


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## BeatCJ (Jan 28, 2015)

It's still listed in the October 2014 version of PMS310-1: http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/docs/pms310-1.pdf Page 77

I have heard of local agencies not keeping other qualifications of Red Cards for liability reasons, too.


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## madhatte (Jan 29, 2015)

It's frustrating, especially when I end up IC on a fire where I don't have the resources I need and have to adjust the plan accordingly. I hate having to accept one escape to prevent another on account of absent resources.


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## 2dogs (Jan 30, 2015)

dhskier2 said:


> It's CYA at its finest



Brilliant observation. It is people like you that keep me away from AS. Can we get this expert kicked out of F&L?


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 31, 2015)

I don't see how skier2's opinion would get this kicked. I mean, the original post was borderline since this whole thing will become a huge political football in due time but CYA in ANY government org is normal procedure.


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## slowp (Jan 31, 2015)

singinwoodwackr said:


> I don't see how skier2's opinion would get this kicked. I mean, the original post was borderline since this whole thing will become a huge political football in due time but CYA in ANY government org is normal procedure.



Really? What is your experience? You use the term "huge". Where is your documentation? 

I maintain that government agencies are not all that different from large corporations. In fact, one coworker left the government to go to work for one of those and told us she did less work for more pay. I will not cite her name here, you'll have to take my word. 

Have you worked on any timber sales on government land? Gotten any TSI contracts? Contracted out on fires?


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2015)

slowp said:


> Have you worked on any timber sales on government land? Gotten any TSI contracts? Contracted out on fires?



It always amazes me how many people with no actual experience in logging, especially the Left Coast timber industry, feel qualified to comment on it.
They're dilettantes...wannabes... and they bring nothing useful to the discussions.
Do they have a right to their opinions? Of course.
Do we, the people directly involved, have the right to laugh at them and then ignore them? We sure do. I'm glad for that.


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## slowp (Feb 1, 2015)

Gologit said:


> It always amazes me how many people with no actual experience in logging, especially the Left Coast timber industry, feel qualified to comment on it.
> They're dilettantes...wannabes... and they bring nothing useful to the discussions.
> Do they have a right to their opinions? Of course.
> Do we, the people directly involved, have the right to laugh at them and then ignore them? We sure do. I'm glad for that.



But if you ignore them, you don't see or hear the misinformation spewing out. That's a problem with the internet. Anybody, no matter what, can pose as an "expert" and BS away. Opinions? Yes, but make sure folks know it is an opinion and not fact. Ignoring, lets those folks continue unchallenged.


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## Gologit (Feb 1, 2015)

slowp said:


> But if you ignore them, you don't see or hear the misinformation spewing out. That's a problem with the internet. Anybody, no matter what, can pose as an "expert" and BS away. Opinions? Yes, but make sure folks know it is an opinion and not fact. Ignoring, lets those folks continue unchallenged.



Well said. Different people have different approaches.
I don't totally ignore them. If they make an idiotic statement I'll usually say something in reply. When they make a statement based on ignorance or hearsay, especially if it's demeaning and unnecessarily critical of the logging industry, I'll make it a point to correct them.

And you're right, it's always nice to know what kind of misinformation is going around. A lot of people who can manage to start a saw and use it to cut down a tree think they're loggers. Because they clear two acres of scrub they think that qualifies them to comment on logging in general. It usually doesn't take long before their ignorance exposes itself. There are a lot of people like that around.
Worse than them are the ones with no logging experience and an agenda.

If they ask an honest question and accept an honest answer I'll spend some time trying to help them. I think everybody here would. If one of the weekend warriors starts giving them bad or dangerous information...and that happens more often than it should... I'll try to set them straight.

What I won't do is establish any kind of ongoing argumentative dialogue with anybody. I hate arguing. Arguing never solves anything and if common facts don't change somebody's bad ideas I really believe that arguing is a waste of time.
They say what they have to say, I say what I have to say.
If they keep running their mouth, then I ignore them. Life is more peaceful that way.


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## dhskier2 (Feb 2, 2015)

2dogs said:


> Brilliant observation. It is people like you that keep me away from AS. Can we get this expert kicked out of F&L?



I don’t see how my experiences or opinion of madhatte’s situation would grant me any sort of expertise in the area of NWCG accreditation- so in case there was any confusion, I'm no expert.
From someone who appears to have an active background in the world of wildland firefighting, I am curious if you have any insight on the wall madhatte appears to be running into.
As far as asking for me to be kicked out of the F&L forum... if there's a problem with something, PM me- I'd like to think I'm a pretty agreeable guy.


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