# Climbing a pine tree, some questions



## Plasmech (Dec 22, 2008)

I've got an eye on a pine tree that my uncle needs taken down. It's maybe 18" diameter above the root flare. Standing perfectly straight up. Close to the house, and no safe felling zone, so she needs to come down in pieces. I'm not ready to do this job yet as I need a lot more experience, but some questions came to mind:

1. Being that a pine tree really doesn't have any crotches (man I hate that word, can't we come up with something better?), what would I "crotch-in" to for my secondary line? Would I have to cinch a false crotch around the trunk? I know that ANSI requires two lines while operating the saw, and I'm not going to break code.

2. Are there any special considerations when dealing with pine? Sap gum up the saw? Any climbing concerns/hazards?

Thanks for any replies.


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## Mikecutstrees (Dec 22, 2008)

*Tying in to a pine....*

When dealing with pine keep all of your ropes as far as you can from the sap. Also branches are very brittle. So be careful. To tie in you can use a ring and ring friction saver and crotch into that. But easier cheaper and more versatile is a webbing sling of appropriate length and strength with a double locking climbing rated carabeaner on one end and an oval link on the other end. This will make a friction saver you can remove from the ground if need be. Or if your doing a takedown and going to the top you can use two carabeaners. Just make sure the slingand beaners havn't been used for rigging and are rated for 5,000lb or better. Take your time and Be safe .... Mike


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## Canyonbc (Dec 23, 2008)

Any pictures. 

I would go through the video forum. 

Ekka has a removal...a knotless rigging out of a pine...

Also look on youtube might be able to show you some things.

Do remember not every video on you tube will be done by people done by ANSI standards or just safe but a lot are really good.

Hope this helps.


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## woodchux (Dec 23, 2008)




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## Wortown Mick (Dec 23, 2008)

Uh, call a professional. 

Running saws above grounds got intrensic danger your not even going to realize till your up there. 

Ive tied in on a spruce spar pole, its all about leaving a small stub on the opposite side of the tree you intend to abseil from.

Probably not safe but I got it done. left my buckstrap on coming down just in case.


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## (WLL) (Dec 23, 2008)

how far is the tree from doylestown? id be happy ta help ya if its close ta me. we could work out some sorta deal. im sure you could use a good lesson from a pro.


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## Plasmech (Dec 24, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> how far is the tree from doylestown? id be happy ta help ya if its close ta me. we could work out some sorta deal. im sure you could use a good lesson from a pro.



I sure could! I PM'd you. Can't wait.


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## Plasmech (Dec 24, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> Uh, call a professional.
> 
> Running saws above grounds got intrensic danger your not even going to realize till your up there.
> 
> ...



Everybody has to start somewhere. When you were learning, what good would it have done you if someone told you to call a professional? Every professional was a dumb schmuck like me at some point.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 24, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> how far is the tree from doylestown? id be happy ta help ya if its close ta me. we could work out some sorta deal. im sure you could use a good lesson from a pro.



Atta boy


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## Wortown Mick (Dec 24, 2008)

A good place to start is with pros. 

Im far from a pro or even a decent climber but ive spent enough time on the ground to know a thing or 2. 

Do you know how to tie a friction hitch? 

If you cant tie off on either a taughtline or a blakes you dont have much buisness climbing and that IS that

Plenty of literature avaliable.

Tree climbers companion would be a great start.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 24, 2008)

Plasmech said:


> Everybody has to start somewhere. When you were learning, what good would it have done you if someone told you to call a professional? Every professional was a dumb schmuck like me at some point.



What he wants is for you to work and learn from a pro instead of making an ultimate mistake costing you and the whole industry. I feel the same learn before costing you your life and raising the insurance rates.


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## Plasmech (Dec 24, 2008)

Remember guys, I cannot possibly get hurt only by asking questions in a forum. I am nowhere near ready to go vertical yet. I am trying to learn. I'm going to read read read and ask ask ask and soon hopefully get some lessons from a pro before my feet leave the ground. Thanks for all the concern but y'all have nothing to worry about, at least not yet.


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## Plasmech (Dec 24, 2008)

woodchux said:


>



What is that arrangement called? By the way, that orange rope does not look so safe anymore eh? Did you forget part of P.R.E.P.? LOL Thanks for the pic.


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## Wortown Mick (Dec 24, 2008)

Check out sherril or baileys and buy a copy of the tree climbers companion. 

Put it on santas late gift list. 

Its a good place to start.


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## woodchux (Dec 24, 2008)

Plasmech said:


> What is that arrangement called? By the way, that orange rope does not look so safe anymore eh? Did you forget part of P.R.E.P.? LOL Thanks for the pic.



Blakes on a splittail...The 'orange rope' is a steelcore lanyard, the outer cover holds no strength so its still safe. The blue rope has a rope snap tied on the end and is cinched around the tree. The friction hitch is a blakes with an added turn to help prevent binding ( all hitches will bind down on SRT )use a figure 8 or a munter hitch if youre gonna rappel down like this. Keep the knot on as a backup to the 8.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2008)

Plasmech, do you intend on making this your career??

If not you are probably wasting your time and in-dangering yourself by trying it. It takes much more time to learn to do this stuff than you can devote to a hobbie. You need professional hands on instruction and hours on a professional job site.


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## lostcoastland (Dec 24, 2008)

*Climbing Pines*

I enjoy climbing pines because you usually dont need spikes because all the branches, although getting sap on your rope suck's it's not the worst, i think it gives you a nice grip. Check out the Tree Climbers Companion on how to install, and retrieve a false crotch from the ground and you'll be running smooth. I usualy climb with a flipline and a 150 ft. of arborplex (nice and cheap) running through a Petzl Gri Gri, which act's as a slack tender and belay device, Whatever you do, make sure you know your limit's, and always be tied in . i'm also somewhat of a novice climber but it's really about having all the gear . It takes a little while to get confortable in realizing what your doing. I would suggest doing a littel bit of climbing with just a pruning saw before trying any takedown's that need to be lowered, When your in the tree YOUR the boss. Dont let anybody on the ground bully you into doing anything your not comfortable with. People on the ground got no idea what's goign on up there so never listen to dumb homeowner's telling you to go a little higher or put yourself in a sketchy situation. It's better to just comedown and walk away from the job if it aint right. Or bring in another climber to show you how it's done. Also i would suggest being a groundsman for a little while just to see how much tension is in the rigging before setting choker's ( timber hitch's, ect) up in the tree . and then have a experienced climber be your groundsman for a bit before you train someone new. good luck


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## clearance (Dec 24, 2008)

Cut down many pines now, no big deal, but I have climbed thousands of trees. Best to watch and learn first, it would suck to read about you on that other section here. I mean that with no holier than thou attitude at all, I don't even know you, but I care about your safety. Merry Christmas/Jim.


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## treeslayer (Dec 25, 2008)

lostcoastland said:


> Check out the Tree Climbers Companion on how to install, and retrieve a false crotch from the ground and you'll be running smooth. I usualy climb with a flipline and a 150 ft. of arborplex (nice and cheap) running through a Petzl Gri Gri, which act's as a slack tender and belay device, Whatever you do, make sure you know your limit's, and always be tied in . i'm also somewhat of a novice climber but it's really about having all the gear . It takes a little while to get confortable in realizing what your doing. I would suggest doing a littel bit of climbing with just a pruning saw before trying any takedown's that need to be lowered, When your in the tree YOUR the boss. Dont let anybody on the ground bully you into doing anything your not comfortable with. People on the ground got no idea what's goign on up there so never listen to dumb homeowner's telling you to go a little higher or put yourself in a sketchy situation. It's better to just comedown and walk away from the job if it aint right. Or bring in another climber to show you how it's done. Also i would suggest being a groundsman for a little while just to see how much tension is in the rigging before setting choker's ( timber hitch's, ect) up in the tree . and then have a experienced climber be your groundsman for a bit before you train someone new. good luck



EXCELLENT ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!


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## D Mc (Dec 25, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> how far is the tree from doylestown? id be happy ta help ya if its close ta me. we could work out some sorta deal. im sure you could use a good lesson from a pro.



This is a very thoughtful and generous offer that you should definitely take advantage of. I see you pm'd him, hope it works out for you.

There is nothing like hooking up with a professional in this field to both inspire you and control your enthusiasm which could get you in trouble. It takes but a few moments to recognise the depth and breadth of the knowledge and skill required to function safely. 

Good luck.

Dave


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## capetrees (Dec 25, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> What he wants is for you to work and learn from a pro instead of making an ultimate mistake costing you and the whole industry. I feel the same learn before costing you your life and raising the insurance rates.



This is like a scene from "Airplane!". "Remember Striker, we're all counting on you.". Costing the whole industry? Give the guy a break!


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## Wortown Mick (Dec 25, 2008)

capetrees said:


> This is like a scene from "Airplane!". "Remember Striker, we're all counting on you.". Costing the whole industry? Give the guy a break!



uh, truth hurts. 

Idiots make our insurance go up and take money from our pockets. 

Ill treat him as such.


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2008)

climbing is very dangerous, you will be in my good hands. i have helped many new eager young fellas ta get there feet safely off the ground. i will teach u the basics of knots throw-ball and proper cutting technique then we go up and use what we learned. after you get the basics and safety down it will be up 2 you to practice, practice, practice. it takes many many years to become a smooth successful efficient climber. in this biz speed comes with knowledge!!! imo white pines are a pita they dont hold much hinge and go where gravity takes em. snap crackle pop and strait down they go. dont ever think you can walk a leaning limb in any direction other than its natural stance.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 25, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> climbing is very dangerous, you will be in my good hands. i have helped many new eager young fellas ta get there feet safely off the ground. i will teach u the basics of knots throw-ball and proper cutting technique then we go up and use what we learned. after you get the basics and safety down it will be up 2 you to practice, practice, practice. it takes many many years to become a smooth successful efficient climber. in this biz speed comes with knowledge!!! imo pines are a pita they dont hold much hinge and go where gravity takes em. snap crackle pop and strait down they go. dont ever think you can walk a leaning limb in any direction other than its natural stance.



The truth is white pines have a low modulous of rupture but Our loblollies are quite strong, I have climbed both and I prefer loblollies. Teach him the basics of climbing yes you can but let him know how much still needs learned to effectively bring down limbs with rigging and such and that he should learn that as well before embarking on projects that could kill him!


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 25, 2008)

I've been wanting to take down these 2 100 ft leaners beside my shed for a long time. Finally going to do it tomorrow. I'll admit, I jumped into this thing head first and had learned about 50% the hard way. I've teamed up with a guy down the road that has been with Asplundh (sp?) for many years. I installed a satellite system for him and got him the "hook up" so he feels the need to teach me something new about climbing and rigging every time we meet. No matter how much else I have to do I always let him end the conversation. I get him to let me tie new knots over and over on the ground and he doesn't mind giving me positive construction on every seemingly small detail. I've climbed these two trees several times just to practice with my ropes, and I think we can take them down safely. I know I ramble. I'm full of turkey. The only thing I wanted to say is that I'm very appreciative of the pros out there that don't want to make a fool out of me for wanting to do what they do. His wisdom has probably already saved my life, and will probably make me some scratch in the future. Kudos to those of you that have the patience and kindness to tech a rookie a thing or two.


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> I've been wanting to take down these 2 100 ft leaners beside my shed for a long time. Finally going to do it tomorrow. I'll admit, I jumped into this thing head first and had learned about 50% the hard way. I've teamed up with a guy down the road that has been with Asplundh (sp?) for many years. I installed a satellite system for him and got him the "hook up" so he feels the need to teach me something new about climbing and rigging every time we meet. No matter how much else I have to do I always let him end the conversation. I get him to let me tie new knots over and over on the ground and he doesn't mind giving me positive construction on every seemingly small detail. I've climbed these two trees several times just to practice with my ropes, and I think we can take them down safely. I know I ramble. I'm full of turkey. The only thing I wanted to say is that I'm very appreciative of the pros out there that don't want to make a fool out of me for wanting to do what they do. His wisdom has probably already saved my life, and will probably make me some scratch in the future. Kudos to those of you that have the patience and kindness to tech a rookie a thing or two.


be sure ta empty the shed first. its better to do a few small ones first, but if u must, remember big tree small tree its the same concept both can kill!! post us some pics of thees 100ft pines. remember to go to the work, use both hands on the saw and always have two points of life saving tie-in's when ever running the saw! i think you are nucking futs!!!


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 25, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> be sure ta empty the shed first. its better to do a few small ones first, but if u must, remember big tree small tree its the same concept both can kill!! post us some pics of thees 100ft pines. remember to go to the work, use both hands on the saw and always have two points of life saving tie-in's when ever running the saw! i think you are nucking futs!!!




it won't be the first/tallest one I've climbed to take down. But the first I've ever had to rig down. I'll try to remember to get some pics throughout. we're going to use the one furthest from the shed to rig the majority of the closest one down. The second one I think we can swing the limbs with the tractor and then just use the rope puller to take it down in 4-5 ft sections. I'm very excited about it. I'm glad this one is mine and not a paying job. I would have turned it down and probably not had the chance to hang around and learn anything.


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> it won't be the first/tallest one I've climbed to take down. But the first I've ever had to rig down. I'll try to remember to get some pics throughout. we're going to use the one furthest from the shed to rig the majority of the closest one down. The second one I think we can swing the limbs with the tractor and then just use the rope puller to take it down in 4-5 ft sections. I'm very excited about it. I'm glad this one is mine and not a paying job. I would have turned it down and probably not had the chance to hang around and learn anything.


sounds like to me that u will be just fine. just remember to use some sort off back-cut to avoid peeling your azz into the trunk


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## Wortown Mick (Dec 25, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> it won't be the first/tallest one I've climbed to take down. But the first I've ever had to rig down. I'll try to remember to get some pics throughout. we're going to use the one furthest from the shed to rig the majority of the closest one down. The second one I think we can swing the limbs with the tractor and then just use the rope puller to take it down in 4-5 ft sections. I'm very excited about it. I'm glad this one is mine and not a paying job. I would have turned it down and probably not had the chance to hang around and learn anything.



So youve climbed trees taller than 100 feet and chunked them down? 

Nuckin futs is right. Best of luck, might behoove you to have an experienced climber around with some aerial rescue gear.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 25, 2008)

Wortown Mick said:


> So youve climbed trees taller than 100 feet and chunked them down?
> 
> Nuckin futs is right. Best of luck, might behoove you to have an experienced climber around with some aerial rescue gear.



I climb and piece 100 foot many times it gets harder to find 140' trees 
now adays though. Tallest I remember was a tie between sweetgum and 
black gum.


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2008)

white pines are in fact one of the most important and tallest timber trees in the northeast,and prolly the worlds most important timber. at one point in time these trees grew to heights of 200-220ft tall! the white pine has been so extensively lumbered that there are about none of these virgin pines left. i have yet to see a pine any taller than 100ft around my area,usually the wind gets em before they even get ta 80ft tall. its hard for me to believe that your two pines are any bigger than 60-70ft. give us some pics man!!


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## ropensaddle (Dec 25, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> white pines are in fact one of the most important and tallest timber trees in the northeast,and prolly the worlds most important timber. at one point in time these trees grew to heights of 200-220ft tall! the white pine has been so extensively lumbered that there are about none of these virgin pines left. i have yet to see a pine any taller than 100ft around my area,usually the wind gets em before they even get ta 80ft tall. its hard for me to believe that your two pines are any bigger than 60-70ft. give us some pics man!!



I have climbed loblollies over the 100 foot mark here trees growth are specific to genetic potential and environment maybe it 's Pa! But you are right about the white pines genetic potential the grow tall I seen some tall ones in Mi. The largest pine I have cut here was a little over a hundred foot tall and was actually measured by a forester and thought to be the state record it was sixty seven " at the base and 52" fifty foot up and remained that way till around sixty five foot.


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## (WLL) (Dec 25, 2008)

ive cut some big azz pines round here rope!! u know what they say, the bigger they are the harder they fall. the tallest trees iv removed were tulip poplar on Gibson island in Md. i have also seen some biguns in the Sherwood forest in Md. its not to often i get ta whack on old growth hardwoods any more. we have some huge sycamore trees in thees parts!! i love removing the big ones but it just ain't right.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 26, 2008)

(WLL) said:


> ive cut some big azz pines round here rope!! u know what they say, the bigger they are the harder they fall. the tallest trees iv removed were tulip poplar on Gibson island in Md. i have also seen some biguns in the Sherwood forest in Md. its not to often i get ta whack on old growth hardwoods any more. we have some huge sycamore trees in thees parts!! i love removing the big ones but it just ain't right.



It is if they are dead but I hate sycamores I mean merry Christmas by
mentioning those I dread the new year Tulips get big here too tall
weakwooded sobs. It is better to prune them though:angel: 

I think our tallest is basswood at 151 foot not red woods 
but hey you fall from 20' just as dead!


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## Canyonbc (Dec 26, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> It is if they are dead but I hate sycamores I mean merry Christmas by
> mentioning those I dread the new year Tulips get big here too tall
> weakwooded sobs. It is better to prune them though:angel:
> 
> ...



Some one correct me if I am incorrect. 

But once you are falling from 32 ft you might as well fall from 1000 ft you are going the same speed.


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## Wortown Mick (Dec 26, 2008)

Canyonbc said:


> Some one correct me if I am incorrect.
> 
> But once you are falling from 32 ft you might as well fall from 1000 ft you are going the same speed.



Your way off buddy. The fall might be just as lethal but you arent going to hit terminal velocity from 30 feet. 

I think its somwhere around 120mph flailing , probably a good bit faster if you were aerodynamic. 


The tallest pines on the east coast were up to like 250-260 feet tall if I remember. 200+ foot tall stands of virgin pine were very common with a great many taller than that. The hardwoods around here either arent old enough or the climate wont let them grow to gigantic proportion. 
I see sycamores and tuliptrees occasionaly, a couple catalpas, mostly by far maple and oak. No hardwood over 100' really.

MA was clearcut from boston to new york though so thats no big suprise.


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 26, 2008)

I'll get some pics when it gets light. The tallest pine I've cut was 52" at the base and we estimated it was just over 100'. my new tree buddy told me these two were both between 90-100ft. I didn't think they were that high, I have dozen on the property and some much straighter and taller. This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask you guys. I have an inclinometer, so, for instance, if I walk 50ft from a tree and the top is then at 35 degrees elevation from where I stand, what's the math to tell how tall the tree is? 

I'm sure this is probably a simple rise/run equation I forgot fom 5th grade, I just don't remember.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 26, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> I'll get some pics when it gets light. The tallest pine I've cut was 52" at the base and we estimated it was just over 100'. my new tree buddy told me these two were both between 90-100ft. I didn't think they were that high, I have dozen on the property and some much straighter and taller. This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask you guys. I have an inclinometer, so, for instance, if I walk 50ft from a tree and the top is then at 35 degrees elevation from where I stand, what's the math to tell how tall the tree is?
> 
> I'm sure this is probably a simple rise/run equation I forgot fom 5th grade, I just don't remember.



Pythagorean theory I think if I remember correct it's is 6+8=10 hypotenuse
but it has been a long long time since school so may be incorrect.

So back away 60' sight 100' and it should hit at 80' height.


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## moray (Dec 26, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> ... if I walk 50ft from a tree and the top is then at 35 degrees elevation from where I stand, what's the math to tell how tall the tree is? ...



If you want to make it simpler, move to where the angle is 45 degrees. Assuming level ground, the tree height is obviously your height plus your distance from the tree. If you can't see the top from 45 degrees, you will have to do some simple trigonometry (tangent of 35 degrees times 50 feet plus your height = height of tree).


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 26, 2008)

moray said:


> If you want to make it simpler, move to where the angle is 45 degrees. Assuming level ground, the tree height is obviously your height plus your distance from the tree. If you can't see the top from 45 degrees, you will have to do some simple trigonometry (tangent of 35 degrees times 50 feet plus your height = height of tree).



THANKS. 

I think you guys are right. I was about 20 ft from the top today when I lowered myself down with a 120' hank of rope, there was a bit of left over rope. I don't think the trees are quite 100'. I know some on the property are though. I took a picture, I'll post them all when we finally get them both down. 


Shed still intact thus far.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 26, 2008)

Stihl Alive said:


> THANKS.
> 
> I think you guys are right. I was about 20 ft from the top today when I lowered myself down with a 120' hank of rope, there was a bit of left over rope. I don't think the trees are quite 100'. I know some on the property are though. I took a picture, I'll post them all when we finally get them both down.
> 
> ...



Prolly 85' many trees in maturity in that size range but then we
have many larger than the 100' mark here as well still a bigie


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## Stihl Alive (Dec 26, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Prolly 85' many trees in maturity in that size range but then we
> have many larger than the 100' mark here as well still a bigie



yes. this is a great learning experience for me. a lot of the limbs are tied up with the other tree, and the top 15 ft curves toward the shed/house like crazy. I got a lot out of one of them today. Not as much as I thought I would get done but I never move as fast in the tree as I do in my head on the ground. I have no doubt we'll get it down safely.


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## lostcoastland (Jan 6, 2009)

*getting high*



Stihl Alive said:


> THANKS.
> 
> I think you guys are right. I was about 20 ft from the top today when I lowered myself down with a 120' hank of rope, there was a bit of left over rope. I don't think the trees are quite 100'. I know some on the property are though. I took a picture, I'll post them all when we finally get them both down.
> 
> ...



how did you get your rope out of the tree. unless your going back up. usualy you double your rope up so the tree would be less than 60ft. i used to think i was climbing 100 feet until my doubled up rope( 150ft of arborplex) was off the ground and i set my new record at 75 ft. the 100ft mark will be no problem some of the redwoods at my dad's ranch are probalby 160' maybe .. When i finally prune out the biggest one i'll let you know howhigh i got. :jawdrop: but i imagine you can never get high enough. check out this guy....http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/07/bend_man_takes_off_on_lawn_cha.html


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## pdqdl (Jan 6, 2009)

Stihl Alive said:


> ...(parts deleted for brevity)
> 
> I'm sure this is probably a simple rise/run equation I forgot fom 5th grade, I just don't remember.



That would have been 10th or 11th grade trigonometry/geometry. Not too many tree workers took that class.

Listen to Moray, he's got it right, but he might have explained it better:

If you are looking up at the top of a tree at a 45° angle, the height is equal to the distance from the tree, assuming that you are looking at it from a level (90°) angle. Then add the height to your own eye level, since that wasn't included in the first height measurement. 

If NOT looking at the tree from a 90° angle (uphill or downhill from the base of the tree), then all bets are off. The viewpoint is no longer a "right" triangle, and you'd better go back and take that trigonometry course.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 7, 2009)

If you have a clinometer that measures slope in percent, then doing tree heights is easy. Percentage slopes is essentially the tangent, that is rise over run measured as a percentage. So 45 degrees is 100%. 

To get the tree height, measure the percentage to the top of the tree, measure the percentage to the bottom of the tree and add them together (assuming the bottom is below your eye level - if not, then subtract the bottom shot from the top). Now take your total percentage and multiply it by the horizontal distance to the the tree. That's the technique use in timber cruising (at least here).


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## capetrees (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't know the tangent idea but I will try it. The way to estimate the height of the tree if you have an inclinometer is;

back away at a known distance from the tree base. 

Use the inclinometer to sight the top to establish the angle.

divide the distance from the base by the cosine of the angle.

Square this number

subtract from that the squared distance from the base

determine the square root of the new number

That is your height. 

depending on where the inclinometer was held to determine the angle, add that height to the height of the tree.

ps Pythagoreans theorum is side a squared + side b squared equals sice c (hypotenuse) squared. the equation used in a previous post forgot to square the distances so 6+8=10 is incorrect. 6 squared + 8 squared = 10 squared.

Used to use these equations all the time when I worked for a surveying firm.


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## moray (Jan 7, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> If you have a clinometer that measures slope in percent, then doing tree heights is easy. Percentage slopes is essentially the tangent, that is rise over run measured as a percentage. So 45 degrees is 100%.
> 
> To get the tree height, measure the percentage to the top of the tree, measure the percentage to the bottom of the tree and add them together (assuming the bottom is below your eye level - if not, then subtract the bottom shot from the top). Now take your total percentage and multiply it by the horizontal distance to the the tree. That's the technique use in timber cruising (at least here).



Very good description of a complete and accurate method. 

This is the method I use with my clinometer when measuring the trees around here, but I use my calculator to tell me the tangents of the angles. If you did take that course pdqdl mentioned, figure the tangents; they are more versatile.

A problem with the method as described is that it may be difficult or impossible to measure the horizontal distance to the tree. Perhaps you are on a small ridge, the tree is 30 feet down the steep slope, and even though the clinometer shows you the spot on the trunk that is level with your eye, you have no way to stretch a tape over to that spot. I have run into just this sort of situation.

With some simple trig you can still get the answer. You need: angle from eye to top of tree, angle from eye to bottom of tree, height of eye above ground, and straight-line distance from your feet to base of tree. I wrote a small program to deal with all this, so I just plug in my numbers and let the computer give me the answer.

What if the base of the tree is surrounded by a ring of fire or is otherwise inaccessible? You can still measure the correct height without ever going near the tree, but you will have to sign up with pdqdl for a remedial course on elementary trig.


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## pdqdl (Jan 7, 2009)

Moray, sometimes you just work too hard!

I bought a small nikon laser range finder. It solves all those measurement problems in about 5 seconds. Accurate to 1/2 yard, 1 yard up to 1/4 mile away. Using the tools & methods listed above, you can stand where you want and measure the height of a tree. Or more importantly, you could stand by the object you don't want to hit, and measure your margin of safety.

This isn't the model I own, but there isn't much difference except newer & neater looking: http://www.nikon.com/products/sportoptics/lineup/laser/350/index.htm

Of course I bought it for measuring ground for mowing, fertilizing, etc. But it works great on trees, too. It's really handy for figuring out quickly how much rope/cable/chain we need to pull something heavy out of a back yard, mud hole, whatever.


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## pdqdl (Jan 7, 2009)

*Uber cool !*

While researching my own laser rangefinder, look at what I found:

http://www.nikon.com/products/sportoptics/lineup/laser/f550/index.htm

A forestry laser rangefinder that looks like it does all the thinking for you !


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## moray (Jan 7, 2009)

Pdqdl, you have all the best toys!


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## pdqdl (Jan 7, 2009)

I bought the laser rangefinder because I'm too dam lazy to walk all over the place with a roll-a-tape. You should see me measure a big apartment complex with my voice recorder, roll-a-tape (seldom but occasionally used), and the Nikon. 1 hour later, and I'm out of there.

My coolest toy ever was my DMI: Distance Measuring Instrument. An electronic device, it coupled into the differential sensor on my explorer, and measured ground speed and distance. It was accurate to 1 foot per mile, providing you kept your calibration correct. Measure fast and accurate, never get out of the car!

Lots of cool functions, I used it to measure hundreds of miles (or least it seemed like it) of roadside for a roadside mowing contract. Their acres were ALL wrong, and I needed to set them straight, since they re-wrote the contract and started calling everything "pay per acre" instead of "pay as bid". Once I whooped on their measurements (much to their chagrin), Public Works of KCMO was so impressed that they went out and bought their own DMI.

Now-a-days, I seldom use any measuring device at all. Nearly all the land I look at is available to measure from aerial maps, while sitting at my desk. Not only is it easier, it's actually more accurate. No eyeballing for square, height of triangle, etc. I just directly measure square feet using the computer. Sometimes I use the contour lines to re-calibrate the scale for severe slopes, but not often.


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 8, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I have climbed loblollies over the 100 foot mark here trees growth are specific to genetic potential and environment maybe it 's Pa! But you are right about the white pines genetic potential the grow tall I seen some tall ones in Mi. The largest pine I have cut here was a little over a hundred foot tall and was actually measured by a forester and thought to be the state record it was sixty seven " at the base and 52" fifty foot up and remained that way till around sixty five foot.



Loblolly's quite often get past the 100ft mark here, we lost a lot during the recent storm all I seem to have been doing is pines or the matchstick that was left when the top snapped off. 

The tallest tree I've ever cut down was a Black Poplar which was close to 120ft which is bigger than they are supposed to grow but it had been planted in the overflow ditch of a lake so it got plenty of water which poplars love. It is actually the one in the photo on my avatar, I will post the photos as soon as I have scanned them and uploaded them to the computer (pre- digital). It was a great job it was given to me and a guy called W--n- by someone who'd bitten off more than he could chew. The guy said he would pay us 'basic day rate' for me W-Y-- and our guys. So we made it last three days (we spent a day pulling Ivy off it!) to make it worth our while.LOL


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 8, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> It is if they are dead but I hate sycamores I mean merry Christmas by
> mentioning those I dread the new year Tulips get big here too tall
> weakwooded sobs. It is better to prune them though:angel:
> 
> ...



I hate Sycamores also in winter they are brittle as hell. In the summer they're okay but full of Aphids. I've a feeling you may be referring to what we call the London Plane _platanus occidentalis_ those things are just the same except when you put them through the chipper those hairy fruits make you cough like you're never gonna get the chance to cough again. They're full of Aphids in summer too. It is one of the most common street trees in the UK due to it's tolerance of pollution. In the UK it's called [I ]platanus acerifolia[/I] we all ought to get together and at least keep the Latin names the same!.

The Sycamore in Europe is _acer psuedoplatanus linnaeus_ which is actually a Maple. It's also used a lot as an urban tree notorious for spewing sap out all over parked cars.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 8, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> I hate Sycamores also in winter they are brittle as hell. In the summer they're okay but full of Aphids. I've a feeling you may be referring to what we call the London Plane _platanus occidentalis_ those things are just the same except when you put them through the chipper those hairy fruits make you cough like you're never gonna get the chance to cough again. They're full of Aphids in summer too. It is one of the most common street trees in the UK due to it's tolerance of pollution. In the UK it's called [I ]platanus acerifolia[/I] we all ought to get together and at least keep the Latin names the same!.
> 
> The Sycamore in Europe is _acer psuedoplatanus linnaeus_ which is actually a Maple. It's also used a lot as an urban tree notorious for spewing sap out all over parked cars.



London plane is Platanus x acerifolia American sycamore is Platanus occidentalis. Either will gag you.


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## (WLL) (Jan 9, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> London plane is Platanus x acerifolia American sycamore is Platanus occidentalis. Either will gag you.


i just call em button woods, i must say when we get em, its good to be the climber. big azz'd sycamores are one of my favorite trees to puzzle down. the glass like fibers will accumulate several inches or more around the chipper.


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 9, 2009)

(WLL) said:


> i just call em button woods, i must say when we get em, its good to be the climber. big azz'd sycamores are one of my favorite trees to puzzle down. the glass like fibers will accumulate several inches or more around the chipper.



I know that's what I'm talking about it's nasty stuff. I like the way the wood cuts though. It's good firewood too if you burn it within 6mths. I had a customer who loved it (even though it burned so quickly) he used to call me up and say 'have you got any more of that Plane wood' no one else liked it so of course I had. Splits like a dream too.


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## pdqdl (Jan 11, 2009)

I had been working trees for quite a few years before I ever knew that some folks don't get along with sycamores. I was talking to a seasoned climber when he mentioned how vile sycamores were. When I heard that, I was clueless as to what he was talking about. He had to explain it to me.

So not everybody hates them.

But then again, poison ivy and stinging nettles don't bother me either. Or chiggers, or mosquitoes, or wasps, or...anything. I'm not allergic to it, no matter what it is, and I seem to have remarkably thick skin. In more ways than one!


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