# Need some wedge wisdom



## VW Splitter (Nov 21, 2021)

Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


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## ATH (Nov 21, 2021)

A few options here:

Drive them in sideways rather than just on top of each other
Some wedges are made for stacking.
I'll use 4 wedges sometimes...stack 2, then make another stack of 2. This allows for driving them slower (one stack, then the other) so they are less likely to pop out and the other stack is there to hold if one does pop out.
Once you have it wedged up, put another in backwards so the fat side is on the inside of the tree.

will look forward to see what others do


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## Tetanus (Nov 21, 2021)

ATH said:


> A few options here:
> 
> Drive them in sideways rather than just on top of each other
> Some wedges are made for stacking.
> ...





VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


Put some man glitter between the wedges and whack them in together, the sawdust will stop wedge from being spat out


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## Ted Jenkins (Nov 22, 2021)

I just do not see this as complicated as it is made out to be. A jack some times seems to be the way to go for some situations and of course a tag line to force a tree where desired. For all others wedges are a very convenient way to go. Good solid Oak limbs or Pine limbs make very good wedges. They can be made in many configurations that can meet any challenge. A few weeks ago I was falling a dead tree that was near a fence. It was leaning exactly over the fence. Then I realized that I did not have any falling tools with me. So I cut a handful of wedges guessing at what angle would be the best. Then I cut a few starting out at about an inch. I put the shallow ones in first and moved the tree some then went to the one inch ones where as the tree started to fall. Thanks


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 26, 2021)

Pull with high rope to rigid, balanced high part of tree trace down back and tie off on back above cut and only use wedge as backup and poke it deeper into cut?


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## rwoods (Nov 26, 2021)

Were you trying to drive both wedges at once? If so, that is likely your problem. Drive each separately, a whack or two at a time.

Ron


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## rwoods (Nov 26, 2021)

On the double tall question - you can buy a thick aluminum wedge, but stacking is easier to drive. Also use two rows of wedges if you have room.

This was a challenging red oak. Three double-stack and one triple-stack. A deeper face might have helped with the stacking, but the pounding would have been harder. 



Ron


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## square1 (Nov 26, 2021)

You know... before there ever were plastic wedges there were nice *thick * steel wedges. I still have a couple.


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## Stonewoodiron (Nov 26, 2021)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I just do not see this as complicated as it is made out to be. A jack some times seems to be the way to go for some situations and of course a tag line to force a tree where desired. For all others wedges are a very convenient way to go. Good solid Oak limbs or Pine limbs make very good wedges. They can be made in many configurations that can meet any challenge. A few weeks ago I was falling a dead tree that was near a fence. It was leaning exactly over the fence. Then I realized that I did not have any falling tools with me. So I cut a handful of wedges guessing at what angle would be the best. Then I cut a few starting out at about an inch. I put the shallow ones in first and moved the tree some then went to the one inch ones where as the tree started to fall. Thanks


Yes sir! Done the same! Always feels good to field fabricate your tools!!


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## peteduncan (Nov 26, 2021)

VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


I think that stacking two wedges results in a combined angle that is just too steep to stay put. I try to have a few flat spacer (shim) pieces to stack under a wedge, to get more lift when needed. The flat plates that I have are different materials and different thickness, from 1/8" thick to 1/2" thick, and about as wide and long as my wedges. Steel, aluminum, plastic and wood spacers all seem to work, but a wooden piece may compress too much (or even split). 

After driving my first wedge in as far as possible, I position a flat spacer plate beside it and start a second wedge sitting on top of the flat plate. The flat spacer gives you more thickness without increasing the wedge angle. When the second wedge is driven in far enough, the cut should have opened enough to re-start the first wedge sitting on a thicker spacer plate (or on two stacked plates). I'm sure that this approach won't work in all situations, but I've done this a couple of times, with good success.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 27, 2021)

VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


couple few options
easiest and quickest is to get some dirt between the wedges, maybe some on the wood too if really wants to pop out. 
or you can bore a slot just above or below so there is some wood between the wedges, you have to have room to pull this off though, as you won't be able to bore above an already engaged wedge. 
You can try putting a wedge in closer to the hold wood, though you do run the risk of tearing the hold wood and sending the tree sidewards. While I'm thinking of it, the more wedges you stack the more chances of the hold wood failing, so user discretion is advised. 
to really stack wedges you have to keep a bunch on hand, and it does work pretty good to get 2 sets going, so at the very least you'll need 3, 4 is better, sink the first one or 2 but leave an inch or so proud start your first stack, the stack the other 2 once they loosen up. 
if you find yourself in a pinch and out of wedges you can chop some of the face chunks up and use those to stack on as well. 
if you can, always have at least one wedge on standby duty... could be the one that gets you out of a real pickle 


square1 said:


> You know... before there ever were plastic wedges there were nice *thick * steel wedges. I still have a couple.


^^ don't ****ing do this^^

unless you like bits of chain stuck in your face 

Before plastic wedges there were aluminium/magnesium wedges, before that, we didn't have chainsaws, and steel was safe. Cause the saw only had one cutting side and wasn't ripping around at 13000 rpm


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> ^^ don't ****ing do this^^
> 
> unless you like bits of chain stuck in your face


There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact if common sense prevails. I realize that might in short supply.


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## ZinTrees (Nov 27, 2021)

square1 said:


> There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact if common sense prevails. I realize that might in short supply.


if you have EVER ran a saw you would know, there will most definitely be contact, unless you come from a bottle


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

ZinTrees said:


> if you have EVER ran a saw you would know, there will most definitely be contact, unless you come from a bottle


BS
Please explain how the steel wedge and the running saw, which are not in the tree at the same time, contact each other? I'll wait.


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## ZinTrees (Nov 27, 2021)

ummm

if you need wedges in it, you arent done cutting (You wouldnt be able to finish the cut since its pinched your saw before your done cutting, hence the wedge keeping the kerf open so you dont pinch the saw) 

prove me wrong, ill wait

p.s, rather be a trump supporter than someone who's never ran a saw, or pinched one for that matter


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

ZinTrees said:


> prove me wrong, ill wait


Try reading comprehension. The OP wasn't asking about keeping the kerf open so as to not pinch the saw:


VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift


They were done cutting and needed to move the center of gravity past vertical in the direction to be felled. 
As I commented, and you proved, common sense is often in short supply.


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## ZinTrees (Nov 27, 2021)

again, back leaner= pinches saw without wedge


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## NorthernMaverick (Nov 27, 2021)

K&H Redhead wedges stack the best of anything I've tried so far. The surface of the material does have something to do with them not flying out, and cheap slippery wedges seem the worst.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 27, 2021)

square1 said:


> There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact if common sense prevails. I realize that might in short supply.


as stated above, the wedge is meant to keep the kerf open while you finish the cuts, it can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished. 

if you are stacking wedges, the you will for sure need a wedge in long before you finish cutting enough, the tree will sit back and then you are really hooped.

Should I mention that standard practice is to leave the saw in the cut, until the very last minute, or until the hold wood is sufficiently small enough the any more cutting would be unwise? Personally I cut plastic wedges all the damned time, and occasionally smash them into the saw (a real PITA btw) so if they were steel... 

Furthermore, when cutting a hard back leaner, most folks leave more hold wood, so they can get the tree lifted some while they can be sure its not going to pop off the stump, once its stood up you can then nibble at the hold wood and more often then not the compressed wood around the wedges will return some and its enough to tip the tree the rest of the way over. 

so if you advocate for using steel wedges, some jack ass is going to try it rip the cutting edges off every link of chain and be in a world of hurt and possibly blind. 

Yeah a guy can use a steel wedge when the saw is not in the kerf, but who actually does this? (not any logger that plans on making a living at it) and who in their right mind is going to drag a 7# pound single purpose wedge with them through the woods? (if you say but the truck is only 10' away you can please **** right off). 

and no, common sense isn't common, so we should all try and give the correct idea, not the fringe nutter ideas that only work in narrow minded situations. 

So I guess there are more then a handful of reasons to leave a saw in the cut, where it could and likely will make contact with any wedge, so not having a steel wedge in the way at all is maybe a good decision?


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## TheJollyLogger (Nov 27, 2021)

square1 said:


> BS
> Please explain how the steel wedge and the running saw, which are not in the tree at the same time, contact each other? I'll wait.


Because when you are cutting a back leaner you get a wedge in as soon as there is room, to keep the kerf open. I have no problem using a steel splitting wedge for extra lift once the backcut is finished but you will still need a plastic wedge initially. Not to mention they are fu king heavy to cart around all day.


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## TheJollyLogger (Nov 27, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> as stated above, the wedge is meant to keep the kerf open while you finish the cuts, it can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished.
> 
> if you are stacking wedges, the you will for sure need a wedge in long before you finish cutting enough, the tree will sit back and then you are really hooped.
> 
> ...


You beat me to it, lol


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> the wedge is meant to keep the kerf open





TheJollyLogger said:


> Because when you are cutting a back leaner you get a wedge in as soon as there is room, to keep the kerf open.



No 5hit? Good info, but useless to the OP in the scenario given.
It's like they asked where to get ORD and you guys advising where Rec Gas is sold 



_^couple wedges from my gear box^ _

If the OP were a "professional logger", do you really think they'd be here asking the question they did? Specific information was requested about a given situation. The steel wedge is a viable option, sorry it hurt your feelings. More than one way to skin a cat. Quit being so d*mn*d defensive.


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## TheJollyLogger (Nov 27, 2021)

square1 said:


> No 5hit? Good info, but useless to the OP in the scenario given.
> It's like they asked where to get ORD and you guys advising where Rec Gas is sold
> 
> View attachment 944456
> ...


Then give good advice. Suggesting a homeowner should switch to steel wedges is just bad advice.


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Then give good advice. Suggesting a homeowner should switch to steel wedges is just bad advice.





TheJollyLogger said:


> I have no problem using a steel splitting wedge for extra lift


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## ZinTrees (Nov 27, 2021)

square1 said:


>


you specifically quote two separate parts to distract from the rest of what he's saying

I dont even like TheJollyLogger, im still going to side with him here


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

ZinTrees said:


> now to specifically quote two separate parts to distract from the rest of what he's saying
> 
> I dont even like TheJollyLogger, im still going to side with him here


Guess I missed were thejollylogger specified using a steel wedge for extra lift was "not for homeowners" in his original acceptance of the practice. Sorry you kids got your panties in a bunch over an age old practice. 
What was your former user name here? You remind me of someone that is no longer here (under their original name) due to being called out for being obstinate to end no matter how wrong they were.


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## ZinTrees (Nov 27, 2021)

never changed my username

im the same person ive always been
LGBFJB


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## TheJollyLogger (Nov 27, 2021)

Square, where you derailed this thread was when you said there was no chance of a chain contacting a steel wedge


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Square, where you derailed this thread was when you said there was no chance of a chain contacting a steel wedge





square1 said:


> There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact _*if common sense prevails*_


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## TheJollyLogger (Nov 27, 2021)

So read your post. It is obvious you have never been in the tree industry professionally, in any way shape or fashion.

COMMON SENSE NEVER PREVAILS!

That why we work so hard to idiotproof this industry, because it is filled with idiots. So to say there is no possibility of a moving chain coming in contact with a steel wedge unless common sense prevails tells me you have never done this commercially, because if it is in the truck, some dumbass newbie will do it.


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## square1 (Nov 27, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> So read your post. It is obvious you have never been in the tree industry professionally, in any way shape or fashion.


Absolutely, 100%, unequivocally, consistent with your drivel, and * wrong* again.
This thread isn't about professional logging. It's about a everyday user not worrying about production, not concerned with being unable to carry every needed tool through the woods, having one question. That being how to get additional lift when felling against the lean.


TheJollyLogger said:


> to say there is no possibility of a moving chain coming in contact with a steel wedge unless common sense prevails


Huh? I'll type this real slow for you for the final time. If the moving chain (you understand this is used to make cuts) and steel wedge (you understand this is being used to lift the tree *after* the cuts have been made, not hold the backcut open, are not in the same tree at the same time they cannot come in contact. It's physics.


TheJollyLogger said:


> I have no problem using a steel splitting wedge for extra lift once the backcut is finished


^The subject being discussed°



TheJollyLogger said:


> but you will still need a plastic wedge initially.


^Your attempt to save face^

Since you're so concerned about keeping things open with a plastic wedge I suggest you place a plastic wedge between your ears to open your mind.
<square1 stomps the dust from his boots, shakes head & walks away>


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## rwoods (Nov 27, 2021)

VW Splitter said:


> ... Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


 In a weak moment three years ago I bought one of these to qualify for free shipping. I have used it only once for falling; just a couple of weeks ago. I could barely drive the thing with a 5# axe. Others may have different experiences. I would not buy one again. 







Ron


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## Ted Jenkins (Nov 27, 2021)

I have used a steel wedge(s) a few times and I think that I nicked the wedges a couple of times. At the time I was thinking that there was too much pressure to use any thing else but was wrong. Since I have cut maybe five out of some good limbs then drove them in. Once they are in I grab the ones that start out at 3/4" or so and drive them in. This will often allow the first wedges to be pushed out and by that time the tree is often headed the correct direction. I have been surprised at how tough wood wedges can be. I have used as many as eight maybe more. Thanks


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## northmanlogging (Nov 28, 2021)

there's a big yellow wedge, local loggers call it the banana, its 14" or 16" long and about 1.75" thick it drives well enough, but you will need enough girth to make it worth while. I keep a couple around for falling *BIGGGG *timber, stuff well over 36" 

Can't for the life of me think of who makes it, and its dark and raining hard at the mo, otherwise I'd run out and grab one


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## jamesmcsparron (Nov 28, 2021)

VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


Here's a YT video on using a bottle jack to fell a tree. No need for wedges.

I used this method on an eighty foot back leaning spruce and it worked well. 
You need to make sure your cuts are accurate and leave a good parallel four to five inch hinge. 
I used a 4ton bottle jack with a flat 3"x3" steel plate attached to the top to give more surface area otherwise the head of the jack will imbed itself into the tree.


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## VW Splitter (Nov 28, 2021)

Several good ideas here. Thanks for all the replies. Here is a little more info on what I actually had going on. It was a double trunked oak tree that came together about 6 foot above the ground. It was 34 inches in diameter at the bottom. Each of the two trunks were about 20 inches in diameter. One trunk was about 5° leaning back and the other trunk was about 15° leading back. I put 3 heavy ratchet straps on the 6 foot truck. And one heavy ratchet strap about 15 foot above where the trunks came together. I tied a 7/8” bull rope about 25 feet up on one of the trunks. That rope went down into the woods through a snatch block which was tied to a very large tree. Then back up through the woods to my 4 x 4, 2500 ram pick up with worn out tires. I pretension the rope enough to see the top of the tree move a little bit, thinking I could pull it over when the time came. I made a wide open face cut, about 1/4 of the way into the trunk, real close to the ground. And then started the back cut. I got some plastic wedges set in as soon as I was deep enough to get them in. I continued with the back cut setting more wedges in as I went. Ended up with about 5 wedges in the back cut. I hammered the wedges and as far as they would go, lifting the tree till the wedges were up flush with the tree. All the wedges were on the backside of the back cut and not on the sides. I tried to pull the tree on over with my truck but I was just spinning my wheels on the lightly graveled road. That’s when I started trying the double wedges. And they would start a little bit then pop out. I did notice that hitting them one at a time would get them in a little deeper before they popped out but I never got the weight up off the single wedges. I did have a 20 ton bottle jack with me, and was about to cut a hole in the back of the tree to get the jack inserted in, but before I got that going on, we hooked a small 4 x 4 tractor to the front of my truck and the truck and tractor were able to pull the tree on over. In hindsight, some better treads on my truck could’ve made a difference. And my hinge was a little thick. The hinge should have been about 3 1/2” thick and I’m guessing it was closer to 5” thick. I erred on safety I guess, which made harder to break over. I guess better too thick of a hinge than too thin of a hinge. Thanks for all the ideas. I may try some saw dust or dirt in between the wedges next time. I like the idea of some flat spacers in the back cut also. 99% of the time I always have my truck there handy so carrying lots of extra goods in my bag of tricks is not a problem.
Wish I had taken some pictures. Hindsight is 20/20. 
thanks again for all the replies. 
Gary


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## rwoods (Nov 29, 2021)

Gary,

Unless you had a Dutchman, I think you identified the main problem - the thick hinge. I have found if the lift resistance is too great, wedges tend to split back, especially stacked ones. You can gauge the resistance by both the wedge movement and the sound. Not sure how to describe the sound (same as the sound a bottomed out wedge makes), but after you hear it you are usually just beating up your wedge and yourself for no gain.

Glad you got it down safely.

Ron


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## Wow (Dec 27, 2021)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Then give good advice. Suggesting a homeowner should switch to steel wedges is just bad advice.


I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 28, 2021)

Wow said:


> I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw


Here in Commiefornia we always have nice Pine or Oak to work with so using plastic wedges seems utterly stupid. However if good wood to make wedges is not available then plastic is it. I have found that by far limbs make the best wedges. I do not use a table saw but a chain saw. When I do make them I make many times more than I need at the moment. The reason plastic wedges pop out is because the taper is wrong. Wood does not have a tendency to pop out for a few reasons. The taper can be made very gradual and wood has just the right amount of friction so popping out is less. A 20'' tree that is leaning should allow at least 5 wedges to be used. Once the back cut starts to open a little the next set of wedges can be used with out needing to stack wedges which does not work well. Wedges can be cut with a starting point at 1/2'' or 3/4'' or what ever is needed thus elliminating any need for stacking. Possible the most important issue is wood is tough not nearly as flimsy as plastic. You can drive on a wood wedge until you think it can not take any more but it does. When using plastic often they start to mushroom after just a few punches. Thanks


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## VW Splitter (Dec 28, 2021)

I like the idea of making my own wooden wedges. I always have the truck close by so caring a large variety pack is not a problem. You could have several in your arsenal, 2" thick with a 1" thick starting point. Would green wood hold together better, or is something cured out better? Would oak make a good wedge, we have plenty of it around.


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## ATH (Dec 28, 2021)

Wow said:


> ....One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. ....


How were steel wedges better than plastic wedges in that circumstance? They won't crush. Sure, you'll mushroom the head a little pounding them in. Wood wedges probably wouldn't have done the job alone because they do have extra friction (good in some circumstances, not in others).

I should make more wood wedges. Sometimes I'll make one on the spot if I only have one plastic wedge with me and it isn't getting enough lift...but some intentionally made wedges from curly wood that will be less likely to split (like the elm you describe) sounds like a good plan!


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## pdqdl (Dec 29, 2021)

square1 said:


> There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact if common sense prevails. I realize that might in short supply.



There is a reason so many plastic & aluminum wedges are sold, and it isn't because they don't outlast the steel wedges. It's because they routinely contact the running chain. And wedges are a bit cheaper to replace than saw chains.


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## pdqdl (Dec 29, 2021)

VW Splitter said:


> Several good ideas here. Thanks for all the replies. Here is a little more info on what I actually had going on. It was a double trunked oak tree that came together about 6 foot above the ground. It was 34 inches in diameter at the bottom. Each of the two trunks were about 20 inches in diameter. One trunk was about 5° leaning back and the other trunk was about 15° leading back. I put 3 heavy ratchet straps on the 6 foot truck. And one heavy ratchet strap about 15 foot above where the trunks came together. I tied a 7/8” bull rope about 25 feet up on one of the trunks. That rope went down into the woods through a snatch block which was tied to a very large tree. Then back up through the woods to my 4 x 4, 2500 ram pick up with worn out tires. I pretension the rope enough to see the top of the tree move a little bit, thinking I could pull it over when the time came. I made a wide open face cut, about 1/4 of the way into the trunk, real close to the ground. And then started the back cut. I got some plastic wedges set in as soon as I was deep enough to get them in. I continued with the back cut setting more wedges in as I went. Ended up with about 5 wedges in the back cut. I hammered the wedges and as far as they would go, lifting the tree till the wedges were up flush with the tree. All the wedges were on the backside of the back cut and not on the sides. I tried to pull the tree on over with my truck but I was just spinning my wheels on the lightly graveled road. That’s when I started trying the double wedges. And they would start a little bit then pop out. I did notice that hitting them one at a time would get them in a little deeper before they popped out but I never got the weight up off the single wedges. I did have a 20 ton bottle jack with me, and was about to cut a hole in the back of the tree to get the jack inserted in, but before I got that going on, we hooked a small 4 x 4 tractor to the front of my truck and the truck and tractor were able to pull the tree on over. In hindsight, some better treads on my truck could’ve made a difference. And my hinge was a little thick. The hinge should have been about 3 1/2” thick and I’m guessing it was closer to 5” thick. I erred on safety I guess, which made harder to break over. I guess better too thick of a hinge than too thin of a hinge. Thanks for all the ideas. I may try some saw dust or dirt in between the wedges next time. I like the idea of some flat spacers in the back cut also. 99% of the time I always have my truck there handy so carrying lots of extra goods in my bag of tricks is not a problem.
> Wish I had taken some pictures. Hindsight is 20/20.
> thanks again for all the replies.
> Gary




Next time set your rope higher. Get a good throwball setup if you don't have one.

I had some idiots working for me once that couldn't tip a large oak tree tied 40" high. It was a straight spar with no leans, and all the limbs had been cut off. Through complete lunacy, they managed to roll my 20,000lb knuckleboom crane onto it's side trying to pull the tree over with the 12k winch. _While it was on flat pavement with the outriggers extended, no less_.

In the final analysis, all it needed was putting the chainsaw in the cut and making the hinge thinner. Boy was I pissed! Some folks went home that day unemployed.

BTW: I cut the tree down, using no ropes or wedges. Moral of the story: If it don't go easy, you are probably doing something wrong.


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## square1 (Dec 30, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> There is a reason so many plastic & aluminum wedges are sold, and it isn't because they don't outlast the steel wedges. It's because they routinely contact the running chain. And wedges are a bit cheaper to replace than saw chains.


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## pdqdl (Dec 30, 2021)

Damn. I should make that my avatar.


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## MesquiteFreak (Jan 7, 2022)

If the op is still around check to see if your wedges are single taper or double taper? If you are trying to stack double taper wedges than that is going to be your issue with them not sticking around full-term.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 8, 2022)

Didn’t know there was a difference. I’m guessing mine are all double taper? Is double taper the most common type of wedge?


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## MesquiteFreak (Jan 8, 2022)

I don't know if one is more common than the other. There are no good comparison pics I could find so this first link is to a single taper wedge.









Felling wedge Plastic w/ single taper | eBay


Single taper plastic chain saw wedges. Two-tone yellow/orange design. High quality made in the USA product. The 8" has 1 1/4" of lift. The 10" has 1" of lift.



www.ebay.com





And this link is to a double taper, so you can see the difference and compare to your wedges.









Forester 10" HD Double Taper Wedge


Super high-impact ABS plastic, made for professional use Distinguishable orange head with yellow body Textured on one side Double taper, tip beveled on both sides




www.westechrigging.com


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## TRTermite (Jan 8, 2022)

Wow said:


> I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw


That part about nervous makes nervous reminds me of a job I did. A friend was helping me relocate a remote drive on a (Berry feedwork) sawmill. I have the forklift holding a steel beam and ready to slide it into place , it was close quarter work and I could have done it myself but 2 guys should make it easier. I shut off the forklift and explain to "MIKEE" What we are going to do, And really emphasize to him we are getting paid by the hour, the machine will be running but is not costing anything to be there running, BUT when a machine is running it will tend to speed up the tempo/pace. We need to take our time and work safe. Wasn't 5 or 10 seconds after we started and I have to remind him we are not in a hurry. By the time the beam is slid into place I was getting frustrated and I was getting NERVOUS and Your analogy is dead on about rabbits and bullfrogs. As much as I stressed the "TAKE OUR TIME" approach Mikee just couldn't follow through. I don't have him help anymore and that is one of the main reasons he is an accident waiting to happen. Some one in one of the earlier posts mentioned leaving the saw in the cut running. I do that but try to resist the hurry up mode that can happen with running equipment. It can create a dangerous situation if one is not aware of the little things.


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## rwoods (Jan 8, 2022)

VW Splitter said:


> Didn’t know there was a difference. I’m guessing mine are all double taper? Is double taper the most common type of wedge?



If you are buying standard falling wedges off the shelf, you probably have a single taper wedge which is the preferred falling wedge in most situations. A falling wedge will have one side that forms a 90 degree angle with the driving head and one side that tapers from the head. A double taper wedge typically tapers on both sides from the head (no 90 degree angle) and is used for bucking. Some of the little tiny wedges are meant for bucking. To confuse things there are triple taper wedges, which are falling wedges that are tapered on one side only but has three stages (a three lift wedge). Double Taper is also a brand name wedge. I don't know what shape they have. I wouldn't be surprised if they had two tapers on the same side (a two lift wedge) but I don't know.

The taper (or tapers) of the point does not distinguish a single taper wedge from a double taper wedge. A single taper wedge can have a double taper point.

Ron


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## singinwoodwackr (Jan 9, 2022)

square1 said:


> BS
> Please explain how the steel wedge and the running saw, which are not in the tree at the same time, contact each other? I'll wait.


Alex Baldwin would know.


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## philip_b (Jan 9, 2022)

Some plastic wedges have bumps on one side for falling frozen timber so they dont pop out all the time, you could try those or wooden wedge but they arent gonna last very long .


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## Cricket (Jan 9, 2022)

Wow said:


> I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw


"In fact Nervous men make me nervous."
This is by way of being a universal truth. I've had a nerved up owner not only get their 2000 draft stallion (approximately the size and weight of a Volkswagen Beetle - but dumber...) all stirred up by being nervous, but then cut and run when it started acting stupid(er). I knew someone once who freaked out at a weird five way intersection, so she just closed her eyes and went for it (and got away with it - God looks out for fools and children). Too much confidence is dangerous - but so is not enough to stay calm and *think*.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 10, 2022)

I seemed to have learned a lot about wedges from this forum. Thanks for all the words of wisdom. That’s the way it works around here. Several years ago I was throughly enlighten on barber chair just by asking a question or two. Arborist site is a fountain of knowledge.
thanks.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 10, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> Here's a YT video on using a bottle jack to fell a tree. No need for wedges.
> 
> I used this method on an eighty foot back leaning spruce and it worked well.
> You need to make sure your cuts are accurate and leave a good parallel four to five inch hinge.
> I used a 4ton bottle jack with a flat 3"x3" steel plate attached to the top to give more surface area otherwise the head of the jack will imbed itself into the tree.



couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.

2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)


philip_b said:


> Some plastic wedges have bumps on one side for falling frozen timber so they dont pop out all the time, you could try those or wooden wedge but they arent gonna last very long .


this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.


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## VW Splitter (Jan 11, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> : use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)


Years ago the first time I used a bottle jack, I used a 4 ton jack on a big tree, It didn't move. I got a 20 ton jack and it makes a huge difference.


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## Skeans (Jan 11, 2022)

Big difference between bottle jacks and falling timber jacks











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DutchWoodPecker (Jan 11, 2022)

rwoods said:


> A deeper face might have helped with the stacking, but the pounding would have been harder.


The wisdom of a true woodsman...


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## Cricket (Jan 11, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.
> 
> 2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)
> 
> this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.


Not just felling, re: popping out - I once had one of those "rocket" wedges rise right up out of a log, higher than my head (though to be fair, at 5' nothin', that's not *that* high). It was a good reminder that pressure works in both directions.


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 11, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.
> 
> 2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)
> 
> this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.


If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over. 
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.


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## Skeans (Jan 11, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
> The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.



You’re funny you’ve never cut timber jacks that are bigger then 20 tons are used all the time for directional falling. The set I posted above are 102 tons together with the ability to go up to 306 tons on the one pump it’s not that uncommon to run a double set on a back leaner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 11, 2022)

A 20t jack is just like any other tool or technique... success or failure depends on the experience and judgment of the operator, and the site and conditions of the tree.


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## rwoods (Jan 11, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
> The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.


Northman is logging. Not much log production in climbing a tree. 

I’m just a firewooder. No climbing and no jacks for me. Risk reward doesn’t work out for me.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
> The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.


most of the time if I have the space I would set a pull line, though I got smart and use a BigShot so I don't need to climb them as much anymore. 

However, I don't always have anything to rig too, as I don't always have flat ground, or an anchor to work with, or its simply faster to use a jack, as rigging a tree takes at least an hour (I generally work alone). 

As for whether or not a 20 ton is overkill, lately I've been falling timber that is right around 190' and 50" at the butt cut, that jack takes a heluva lot of the work out of beating wedges, and a smaller jack would of just quit, even the 20ton will max out on some of these trees, and these aren't even back leaning all that hard, it just takes a lot of grunt to get them to lift.
That said, even on smaller timber the 20ton isn't always enough, the tree I described above (that bent both jack handles) was only about 120' and 40" on the butt, it was just limb heavy on the wrong side, even with 2 jacks working it, I still had to jack a little then beat some wedges repeat for 2 hours, and no, a pull line was out of the question, as there was no where to pull from let alone anchor too as it was on the end of a ridge, steep ground on 3 sides of it, with a road and power lines on 2 sides, though this story is not the norm, mostly the jacks come in for trees that have a back lean, simply because they save effort vs wedging, and it only takes a few minutes to set the jack up. 

Sometimes however, the jacks can be a life saver, you find yourself cutting up some tall timber, but the wind picks up even a little bit, suddenly that tree with good positive lean, or even just a slight back lean... is getting blown hard the other way, you've already cut it up, so climbing isnt' an option and rigging it is only slightly less dangerous, so a jack it is, you can put a lot more force on a jack then you ever will banging wedges. OR in the same train of thought, you screwed up and now the tree has sat back on you, you'll never get a wedge started so go get the jack so you can lift it up and over.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2022)

Ironically, that wind picking up bit... has happened to me yes, as it will to anyone that has done this long enough. 
But my grandpappy (whom I'll never meet) used to be a timber faller back in the 1950-60's He was working a job alone (yeah yeah I get it) and the wind picked up, so he was making his way back to get a jack when the hold wood let go, smashed him into a low spot, where he broke his back.... never went to the doctor (cause merica even then) just made himself a brace and cut shakes over the winter to pay the bills. 

I heard this story days before I was cutting some property line timber, that sat back.... So I'm thinking of this story as I walk out in front of said faced and back cut timber to go retrieve a jack... luckily for me the wind didn't change and I was able to get it down where I wanted without breaking my back lol.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2022)

This would be the neighbor of the tree from the above story..


same shirt, different project (about a year later?) but a good jacking vidjeo


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 12, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
> The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.


He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...


Most of the timber available in Ire is Douglas Fir and Sitka spruce, with some western red cedar sprinkled about, at least in the commercially logged stuff. Seems that all them fir cones we picked as kids were sent to Europe to rebuild their forests after some sort of blight (likely caused by sending over seedlings for garden purposes...) 

Granted many of the yard trees in Ireland are going to be various oaks and beech etc, anyway, its likely he'll get the chance to slay a few fat dougies given enough time.


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 12, 2022)

Skeans said:


> You’re funny you’ve never cut timber jacks that are bigger then 20 tons are used all the time for directional falling. The set I posted above are 102 tons together with the ability to go up to 306 tons on the one pump it’s not that uncommon to run a double set on a back leaner.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapat





northmanlogging said:


> most of the time if I have the space I would set a pull line, though I got smart and use a BigShot so I don't need to climb them as much anymore.
> 
> However, I don't always have anything to rig too, as I don't always have flat ground, or an anchor to work with, or its simply faster to use a jack, as rigging a tree takes at least an hour (I generally work alone).
> 
> ...


I suppose it's horses for courses. I'm an arborist so climbing and sectional felling a tree similar to the one you described above "*it was just limb heavy on the wrong side*" would be my option.
I understand, from your point, if you are felling many trees over a long period it would be more energy conservative to use the fastest method at your disposal.
I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a contrary smart ass with my comments btw.
I use a 4tn bottle jack, not too often, when there's a big tree that is either sitting fairly straight or perhaps even a few degrees backwards, to push over when it's away from dwellings or buildings. But mainly, it's usually a climbing job with rigging.
Also, the trees here in Ireland are probably the size of shrubs compared to where you are logging. 

'I got sick once after eating a horse steak and after checking, the Doctor said I was stable".


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 12, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...


Too true, too true. To be sure to be sure.


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## Dave1960_Gorge (Feb 7, 2022)

northmanlogging said:


> as stated above, the wedge is meant to keep the kerf open while you finish the cuts, it can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished.
> 
> if you are stacking wedges, the you will for sure need a wedge in long before you finish cutting enough, the tree will sit back and then you are really hooped.
> 
> ...


"can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished."

Usually. But I have done a variation on that, in which I cut the middle of the hinge out so that I can hammer the wedges in a bit more. Usually cut from the back cut side, but sometimes (carefully) from the face cut side. Useful on skinny leaners especially. 

Not a technique for beginners, as a lot can go wrong: you might send the wedges flying out or pinch the bar going through the hinge if it starts to go before you pull it out --sometimes it will go before you hit the wedges again (kiss the bar goodby). I have never had the remaining holding wood break before its time, but you have to read the tree. Not saying this is ANSI or C faller approved!

Helpful to have some small wedges for trees a foot thick. Or slow down and put a damn rope in it on a fiddleblock or winch. A tight rope is often all you need, with a lot less banging on wedges; the stretch applies enough force to pull over many trees without using wedges at all. However, it is a good idea to at least start one in case the rope loosens up (like if it is across a branch that breaks under load -- a check your shorts moment).


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## northmanlogging (Feb 7, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> I suppose it's horses for courses. I'm an arborist so climbing and sectional felling a tree similar to the one you described above "*it was just limb heavy on the wrong side*" would be my option.
> I understand, from your point, if you are felling many trees over a long period it would be more energy conservative to use the fastest method at your disposal.
> I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a contrary smart ass with my comments btw.
> I use a 4tn bottle jack, not too often, when there's a big tree that is either sitting fairly straight or perhaps even a few degrees backwards, to push over when it's away from dwellings or buildings. But mainly, it's usually a climbing job with rigging.
> ...


Meh, I've been to Ireland, most of the trees are quite short (stupid atlantic wind beats the S out of em never mind O. Cromwell and his round heads) but there was some pretty damned impressive oaks in Killarney, as well as a few of the Pale houses have a bunch of massive transplant PNW stuff. 

Either way, even with a smaller tree, I'd be uncomfortable with a 4t ton jack, they really are just puny little things.


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## Batt4Christ (May 26, 2022)

ZinTrees said:


> if you have EVER ran a saw you would know, there will most definitely be contact, unless you come from a bottle


There's a reason for plastic wedges - and wedges with much use will show it - they get nipped away by chains... Contact in many wedging uses is nearly impossible to avoid.


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## ZinTrees (May 26, 2022)

Batt4Christ said:


> There's a reason for plastic wedges - and wedges with much use will show it - they get nipped away by chains... Contact in many wedging uses is nearly impossible to avoid.


got the corner ripped off one of mine on the first use
perfect bar tip shaped cut


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## V.I. Firewood Company . (May 26, 2022)

VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?


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## V.I. Firewood Company . (May 26, 2022)

VW Splitter said:


> Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge


The effectiveness of a wedge usually starts with the diameter of tree . The smaller the tree the harder it is to control with wedging . Doubling up wedges is very common . But the correct way ( in larger wood ) is to use 4 wedges when doubling up . Once you’ve finish your face cut you can begin the back cut . As soon as possible insert your first wedge . Continue to cut, stopping to tap the first wedge in . Proceed to cut some more holding wood . 
Stop again and put two stacked wedges beside the single wedge . Drive them into the cut . Hit them far enough to loosen the single wedge . Remove the single wedge and stack another one on top of it . Insert the two new wedges beside the other wedges in the tree drive them into the cut . There is now four wedges in the tree . Finish the back cut . Alternate hitting the stacks of wedges until the tree falls . Wedges last longer by doing this as the end don’t get so beat up .
Also it helps if you sprinkle sawdust in between the stacked wedges . The sawdust helps keep the wedges from popping out . 
Cheers,
Look up and live .


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## Wow (May 26, 2022)

I do. I make my own wooden wedges. Some ,375 inches thick. Some thicker. Mine never jump out. Skill and coating. My wedges kinda stick together plus they are crossed when shacked.


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## VW Splitter (May 27, 2022)

Wow, What/how do you coat your homemade wooden wedges?


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## Ted Jenkins (May 27, 2022)

Home made wood wedges are more than superior for most applications. Wood wedges are tough replaceable and cheap. I have never coated but that does not mean that should not be. I make an assortment of taper and thickness witch can be very important. If I have a leaner that needs to go exactly where than maybe eight are needed and another set added as tree moves. Almost never do I stack because some start out at an inch or more eliminating the need for stacking. Thanks


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## Limbrat (May 27, 2022)

I used to make them out of live oak which is about the toughest and hardest wood we have here. The easiest way to do it is to leave a high stump, make two angled cuts down into the stump that meet at the length that you need. Pop out your super wide wedge and cut the desired widths out with a circular saw. They are tough but they absorb a blow more than plastic and it takes more licks to drive to the same depth. If I needed to clean them up I used the King Arthur Lancelot grinder wheel with chainsaw teeth on it. Steel wedges? Not on my job.


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## Captain Bruce (May 27, 2022)

Take some tension away. make a nip on the felling notch side. Any fall that requires 2 wedges or more, is sizable. Safety First.


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## MikeRock (May 27, 2022)

In the late sixties I got several magnesium (?) wedges from the Stihl dealer in Rapid City. He said they were extrusions from Boeing and were trailing edges for flaps. They worked great, nicked okay, didn't mess the chain. They were tough, and did not pop out.. Does anyone still carry these? I'm down to two and a few plastic wedges....popper outers! They squirt out sometimes.


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## singinwoodwackr (May 27, 2022)

What wood are you using?
ive made stage/set wedges out of pine in the past but never thought of making my own felling wedges. I have bandsaw jigs for the various sizes.


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## Ted Jenkins (May 27, 2022)

singinwoodwackr said:


> What wood are you using?
> ive made stage/set wedges out of pine in the past but never thought of making my own felling wedges. I have bandsaw jigs for the various sizes.


I have only cut wedges using a chain saw why use some thing else. Pine works pretty good possibly better than live Oak. I am not sure whether to use green or dry. I would try some of each and compare. Wedges can only be made out of limbs. Try several angles starting with very shallow then on to a more aggressive cut. I usually cut five or six that are quite thick so when a tree starts to move you can grab a few thick ones so any stacking will be eliminated. Thanks


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## singinwoodwackr (May 28, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I have only cut wedges using a chain saw why use some thing else. Pine works pretty good possibly better than live Oak. I am not sure whether to use green or dry. I would try some of each and compare. Wedges can only be made out of limbs. Try several angles starting with very shallow then on to a more aggressive cut. I usually cut five or six that are quite thick so when a tree starts to move you can grab a few thick ones so any stacking will be eliminated. Thanks


Well, I have a resaw and jigs already made so… 
i have plenty of 12q oak and Mahogany as well as some other hardwoods. Pine to 2” thick as well…


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## Kodiak Kid (May 28, 2022)

When stacking wedges always stack at least two sets in case one set sh**s out, you have a second set holding the lift while you reset the stack that failed. In big timber it doesn't hurt to have three or four stacks.  Also, assist with bigger singles if you have the room to work them. Work all the wedges simotaniously. Going back and forth on all the wedges. Relieve holding wood when nessasary. Yes, as VI mentioned. Use a little sawdust between wedges. I sometimes use rifled wedges designed for stacking. Have lots of multiple size wedges standing by when lifting a big heavy leaner. Your gonna need'em!


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## northmanlogging (May 28, 2022)

MikeRock said:


> In the late sixties I got several magnesium (?) wedges from the Stihl dealer in Rapid City. He said they were extrusions from Boeing and were trailing edges for flaps. They worked great, nicked okay, didn't mess the chain. They were tough, and did not pop out.. Does anyone still carry these? I'm down to two and a few plastic wedges....popper outers! They squirt out sometimes.


the magnesium wedges are still available, try Madsens.com 

As for them being cut offs from aircraft manufacture? probably not, the point of casting metal is to reduce waste, that much excess would be far too expensive to just lop off on every part. Especially when you consider that aircraft metals are all documented and tested start to finish, each part has a paper trail from source to installation, the material itself isn't all that expensive, its the paperwork to track it...

That and I've only seen a handfull of magnesium parts on boeing planes, generally cast gear boxes, pretty much everything else is 6061/7075 aluminum, or TI alloys with Stainless fasteners, that have been phased out for titanium lately, this includes parts for planes all the way back to the venerable 707 line. (used to make parts for the aftermarket repair folks, which involved recreating parts based on long missing molds, and very old real deal "blue prints" that were hand drawn and barely legible due to age... there was a lot of creative taper cutters and imaginative tooling... even on a 4 axis cnc)

More then likely they were purpose made as felling wedges.


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## sean donato (May 28, 2022)

I personally like a plastic wedge. Never had a need to stack mote then 3 high. Change over to a bottle jack at that point. Nothing against the wood wedge idea, and have had to make a few out in the sticks on an occasion or two. I personally avoid metal wedges. Besides the possibly catching them with the saw aspect they are heavy buggers and can pop out just as fast as a plastic wedge.


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## Ted Jenkins (May 28, 2022)

singinwoodwackr said:


> Well, I have a resaw and jigs already made so…
> i have plenty of 12q oak and Mahogany as well as some other hardwoods. Pine to 2” thick as well…


If you are working mostly in Idaho then your choices are more limited than some states. A good Pine 6" limb works very well. If you have a setup to cut them consistently well that probably is not a bad thing. What I find that is helpful for me is an assortment with all kinds of shapes and sizes. Some time a progressive use where you plug in two then need one that has more dimension and there it is. Thanks


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## pdqdl (May 28, 2022)

sean donato said:


> ... and can pop out just as fast as a plastic wedge.



Faster, in my opinion. I had a splitting wedge pop out on me once. It rose to about 6' elevation, came right at me, and chopped deeply into the web between my thumb & 1st finger. Yep, needed stitches for that dirty trick.

Now plastic wedges aren't a possiblity while splitting wood, but they won't cut you, either.


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## rwoods (May 28, 2022)

Another case for using two wedges, but not side by side. 

I had a little wedging education today with a back leaning dead ash. I will risk the ridiculing for having my back cut below the face cut as I think the stump shot best illustrates. 

As I said it was a slightly back leaning dead ash. It was just inside the property line with the lean towards the line, otherwise I would have cut it with the lean. It had a 5 to 6 inch off-shoot/branch about shoulder height on the lean side. I cut it off to reduce the load. I made my cuts in what I thought was a solid stem - nice and round with continuous bark. I centered my wedge and cut leaving a thin hinge (dead ash) then I began pounding in the wedge. To my surprise shortly after the wedge began to lift the tree, a 2 1/2 foot cone shaped length of the stem popped up and off with the wedge falling with it. The stem sat back down. With the momentum and the now second face, it fell backwards breaking the hinge. It seems the limb I removed was more of what a farmer would call a sucker than a limb. The second stem was 8 to 10 inches across at the cut and the tree had several growth rings encompassing it on the outside. Thankfully, it wasn't a sudden fall and I was able to ditch the saw and get out of the way. Nothing was harmed. This will make me think twice when confronted with what appears to be a sun seeking branch. If I survive the dead ash long enough to have a next time, I will use two wedges, each off-center of even the slightest indication that there could possibly be an encompassed stem. 




Ron


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## oldbuzzard (May 28, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I have only cut wedges using a chain saw why use some thing else. Pine works pretty good possibly better than live Oak. I am not sure whether to use green or dry. I would try some of each and compare. Wedges can only be made out of limbs. Try several angles starting with very shallow then on to a more aggressive cut. I usually cut five or six that are quite thick so when a tree starts to move you can grab a few thick ones so any stacking will be eliminated. Thanks


After reading all these posts I’ve gotten interested in making some wood wedges. Why do you say wedges can only be made out of limbs?


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## northmanlogging (May 28, 2022)

pdqdl said:


> Faster, in my opinion. I had a splitting wedge pop out on me once. It rose to about 6' elevation, came right at me, and chopped deeply into the web between my thumb & 1st finger. Yep, needed stitches for that dirty trick.
> 
> Now plastic wedges aren't a possiblity while splitting wood, but they won't cut you, either.


You can use plastic wedges for splitting wood, you just have to make a start with a maul or axe first. you will gnaw then end off but once you resharpen the pointy end a couple of times they work pretty good for splitting, don't send sharp shards of steel into fleshy bits either. 

When I was a kid we didn't really know better, and there were piles of dead felling wedges we could repurpose, left overs from my uncles and grandpa's logging... Sure beat the hell out of mercilessly pounding away at 4' wind shook limby dougls fir rounds using a steel handled maul... (******* thing weighed at least 15 pounds, and mostly in the handle, so it didn't really help much with splitting)


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## northmanlogging (May 28, 2022)

^^ eventually we figured out that 4-5# single bit axes worked a helluva lot better then wedges or mauls. working in pairs, or singly we can bust up even the most stubborn large rounds in a few minutes now, Haven't used a wedge for splitting firewood in decades now, not even sure I still own a steel one. (to be clear we are all fat asses, I'm likely in the best shape, yet we can split and stack 4 cord in a day usually without breaking a sweat)

Trick is to start by aiming just off center, first guy swings and lets the axe get stuck, second person standing directly opposite aims for the near edge, then first aims for their near edge, then repeat working back and forth center out, usually they will split on the 3rd strike, then you work around the round each taking a half and breaking it up to desired size,
By yerself you have to do more or less the same process but you don't have the advantage of the other axe stuck in the wood and "holding" pressure on it, so it can take a little longer.


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## TRTermite (May 29, 2022)

VW Splitter said:


> Years ago the first time I used a bottle jack, I used a 4 ton jack on a big tree, It didn't move. I got a 20 ton jack and it makes a huge difference.


Joker comments (Batman) where does he get all of those toys?


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## Limbrat (May 29, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> I have only cut wedges using a chain saw why use some thing else. Pine works pretty good possibly better than live Oak. I am not sure whether to use green or dry. I would try some of each and compare. Wedges can only be made out of limbs. Try several angles starting with very shallow then on to a more aggressive cut. I usually cut five or six that are quite thick so when a tree starts to move you can grab a few thick ones so any stacking will be eliminated. Thanks


Live oak will outlive pine ten to one. Heart wood is hard, limb wood not so much. Dry is harder and drives better.


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## preventec47 (May 29, 2022)

I am intrigued by the idea of wooden wedges. I wonder what the best orientation
of the grain is .... My guess would be the grain is lined up from the point of the wedge to the hammered flat long ways. While OAK is a hard wood I dont think it
would be best suited for wedges because the oak itself splits so easy. My idea is to use SweetGum species because that is a wood that cannot be split manually and often times stalls my 25 ton hydralic splitter. Pine I think is too soft and would crumble where the hammer hits it. These are merely my guesses, from those who
have been making and using wood wedges, no doubt certain strategies in design
must have shown to work better than others.


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## Mad Professor (May 29, 2022)

square1 said:


> You know... before there ever were plastic wedges there were nice *thick * steel wedges. I still have a couple.


I was at an old New England barn sale last week, I got a bucket of steel wedges. Mostly for splitting. 

I used those for years felling long before I knew about the plastic ones. My Grandpa and uncles made wedges out of hardwood for felling.

They used hardest wood available, twisted grin would not split easy too, hickory, locust, oak, beech maple.......


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2022)

Limbrat said:


> Live oak will outlive pine ten to one. Heart wood is hard, limb wood not so much. Dry is harder and drives better.




You probably ought to be a bit more careful with generic statements like that. Ever hear of Bristlecone pine?









Methuselah (tree) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Limbrat (May 29, 2022)

Read a little closer, we're talking about the life of a wedge. Send a few blocks of bristlecone to NW Florida and I'll whittle some wedges out of it see how it holds up.


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## preventec47 (May 29, 2022)

Seems like whatever they make tool handles with would work well.
Wouldnt that be Ash and Hickory ?


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## pdqdl (May 29, 2022)

Limbrat said:


> Read a little closer, we're talking about the life of a wedge. Send a few blocks of bristlecone to NW Florida and I'll whittle some wedges out of it see how it holds up.



I think the word of preference might have been "outlast" rather than "outlive". I think you may have misunderstood my point, which was that you were making a generic statement that might be shown to be misleading or incorrect. 
There are a lot of different pine species. So far as I know, there is only one live oak. I cannot tell you how all the myriad pine tree species do with respect to making wood wedges. Sorry 'bout that. I damn sure don't have any bristlecone in my area, either.

And... I was following this thread before you were; just sayin'.


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## Ted Jenkins (May 29, 2022)

oldbuzzard said:


> After reading all these posts I’ve gotten interested in making some wood wedges. Why do you say wedges can only be made out of limbs?


Because wedges can only be made out of limbs. Then I must consider from where. Different places grown different trees. The limbs here are dense and tough. You could try some different types of wood and let us know what works well. Thanks


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## Limbrat (May 30, 2022)

preventec47 said:


> Seems like whatever they make tool handles with would work well.
> Wouldnt that be Ash and Hickory ?


Any hard wood will work but straight grained woods will split and break a lot faster than live oak which is gnarly, twisted and hard.


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## Limbrat (May 30, 2022)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Because wedges can only be made out of limbs.


Not sure why you say that Ted. Limb wood is nearly always softer and weaker than heart wood. I never make them out of limbs.


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## Kodiak Kid (May 30, 2022)

Just do your self a favor and buy some good quality plastic wedges! We don't live in the stone age anymore and felling wedges don't cost much and won't brake your bank. Check them out! Felling wedges have come a long way in the past 100 years and are made of tough plastic's like hard Poly's and hard Nylon for a reason! If wood or metal wedges worked that good? Professional cutter's would Stihl be using them!  Double Taper or K&H are top line professional Felling wedges. Double Taper make both smoth for warmer weather and textured for frozen wood. Textured wedges won't s**t out as easily as smooth wedges in harder frozen timber. K&H are slightly textured, drive easy, and work well in both summer and winter. Try Madsen's or Bailey's. They both have a website and a wide selection of affordable good quality wedges. You can order online or over the phone. A good cutter uses good equipment in my opinion!

Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!


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## pdqdl (May 30, 2022)

I suspect that the guys that are making their own wedges are doing so because they keep losing or destroying the ones that cost money. So it makes sense to make them out of the best wood when you happen to be working on the right kind of tree.

The only wedges I ever make are when I need one and forgot to bring it with the other tools. The bulk of my tree work never needs a wedge, so I often forget to bring them.

Now I've been known to make my own chock blocks and boards for the beaver-tail on my trailer out of oak. Faster & cheaper than buying, and better quality too.


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## rwoods (May 30, 2022)

I have been thinking of making a couple flat aluminum stacking plates - say 3/8 to 3/4 inches thick with ridges for grip - to see if they work better in those situations where double stacked wedges tend to bounce out. 

Those who have tried this, please chime in with your experience. I don’t want to needlessly chop up my aluminum stock.

Thanks,
Ron


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## Pioneer (Jul 8, 2022)

Made my own wedges out of Ash, normal taper and size. In the future I'll have slight increase in taper but double thickness or even triple thickness wedges as well. As the thin wedges are driven in, it opens it up enough for the thicker wedges. With close to a standard taper there's no problem of them spitting back out.
Had a back leaner towards a house and my regular wedges weren't quite thick enough to get the lean forward I wanted. Had to use my thick steel splitting wedge after I got the cut deep enough where I could just wedge it over. Wooden wedges would have allowed me to leave the saw in the cut until the last second.


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## tree MDS (Jul 8, 2022)

Omg,, you people are way over complicating this wedge thing!! They have there positives and negatives. The wedges get so far, then you’re out of wedge and wish you had a rope in it too (sometimes). I would say both is the cats ass, hands down (if the situation requires ultimate safety).


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