# Dolmar made in CHINA? since when?



## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

I went by a local Dolmar dealer to buy some parts saws and the dealer was kind of bragging about the dolmar ps 510 being a 50cc saw for around $300 compared to the stihls and the huskies of the same class. I thought wow, $300 for a 50cc german dolmar. So I picked it up to check it out, and I take a close look at the manufacture's sticker and it stated the saw was made in china. Are the engines still made in germany and it's assembled in china or is the whole saw made in china? Which dolmars are still made in germany? From their brochure it looks like it's just the ps-9010.


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## woodshed (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> I went by a local Dolmar dealer to buy some parts saws and the dealer was kind of bragging about the dolmar ps 510 being a 50cc saw for around $300 compared to the stihls and the huskies of the same class. I thought wow, $300 for a 50cc german dolmar. So I picked it up to check it out, and I take a close look at the manufacture's sticker and it stated the saw was made in china. Are the engines still made in germany and it's assembled in china or is the whole saw made in china? Which dolmars are still made in germany? From their brochure it looks like it's just the ps-9010.



:monkey:

Scott


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

None of mine say china on them!


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

If you look at the dolmar brochure you can see they only use the "made in germany" near their top of the line saws.


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

Just looked at the new PS-45 420 460 510 5100 6400 73007900 none of them say china on them. I even looked at the 7601.4 BP blower Ms-22 and 260 trimmers No china stickers.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

the made in china sticker, was just below the rear handle near the trigger, believe me I was surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if the parent company makita had something to do with it. this reminds me of the milwaukee cordless tools, they were always made in germany or switzerland, but then everything started coming from china. Makes you wonder how many of these tools are coming from the same plant.


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## brokenbudget (Jan 7, 2010)

could it be that a couple of small parts were mad in china? so they 'have' to add the made in china sticker?
never seen a made in china sticker on any of my dolmars or kita's, ever.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

hopefully a dolmar dealer can chime in. Dolmar is based in GA, so they're closed. If I remember I'll call tomorrow. The number is 888-673-7278 if anybody else wants to call


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## constantine (Jan 7, 2010)

*7900 Made in Germany*

I bought a new 7900 from a local dealer earlier this week. The serial number indicates that the saw was made in May of 2009.
The label says "*Dolmar GmbH, 22045, Hamburg, Germany*."


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Well first, I'm jealous of your purchase, congrats. The dealer's largest saw on display was the ps-510. The brochure has the "made in germany" icon between the ps6400,7300,7900 saws and the ps-9010 saw. I'm thinking they're mid level saws made be now made in china. You have to admit $299 for a new 50cc dolmar is very low.


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## J.Gordon (Jan 7, 2010)

Javelin said:


> Just looked at the new PS-45 420 460 510 5100 6400 73007900 none of them say china on them. I even looked at the 7601.4 BP blower Ms-22 and 260 trimmers No china stickers.





vw_motorsports said:


> hopefully a dolmar dealer can chime in. Dolmar is based in GA, so they're closed. If I remember I'll call tomorrow. The number is 888-673-7278 if anybody else wants to call



One dealer has already chimed in.


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## JohnL (Jan 7, 2010)

If true this bodes badly. I sure as hell won't buy a chinese made Dolmar. I will buy a US made Poulan for 1/3 the price. Or 3 of them if needed.


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## Brad101 (Jan 7, 2010)

I have a new PS-510 here straight from the distributor that says "22045 Hamburg Germany". I have a PB-250.4 Blower that says "Assembled in the United States of Japanese and U.S. parts". No mention of China anything on any other Dolmar stuff in the shop.


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 7, 2010)

JohnL said:


> If true this bodes badly. I sure as hell won't buy a chinese made Dolmar. I will buy a US made Poulan for 1/3 the price. Or 3 of them if needed.



But would you buy a Stihl made in China?


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## JohnL (Jan 7, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> But would you buy a Stihl made in China?




Nope. 4 Poulans instead.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Brad101 said:


> I have a new PS-510 here straight from the distributor that says "22045 Hamburg Germany". I have a PB-250.4 Blower that says "Assembled in the United States of Japanese and U.S. parts". No mention of China anything on any other Dolmar stuff in the shop.




look farther down...does it state made in china


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 7, 2010)

Checked all the Dolmars on our shelf, All made in Germany. From PS-45 up to the PS-7900.


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## Brad101 (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> look farther down...does it state made in china



I have looked everywhere, no China.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

I guess a call to dolmar is on the agenda tomorrow


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## FXDL (Jan 7, 2010)

I bought a dolmar 5105 a month ago and nowhere on it does it say made in china. on dolmars website when you look at the saws it says right there "made in germany"


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## Kennygee (Jan 7, 2010)

*China*

Aren't the Zama carbs made in China , and maybe with new trade laws it has to say "Made in China" somwwhere. I have a 510 and a 6401 neither is Made in China, but both are at least 2 yrs old.


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

All the models below sold in the US & Canada are Manufactured in Hamburg Germany.
ES-173A
PS-45
PS-350
PS-420
PS-3410 TH
PS-5100S
PS-5105
PS-6400
PS-7300
PS-7900
PS-9010

Along with all the Power Cut-Off saws and the MS-4510 Brush Cutter.

But the PS-460 & PS-510 have been manufactured in China since last summer. All PS-460 & PS-510 manufactured before were from Germany.

All the String Trimmers, Hedge Trimmers, Leaf Blowers are Manufactured in Japan by Dolmar/Fuji-Robin and Mitsubishi.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Somebody is going to have egg on their face over this, and odds are that it's going to be me. I'm going to make a special trip back to the dealer with a camera and take a pic. I don't think the dealer will object.


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> If you look at the dolmar brochure you can see they only use the "made in germany" near their top of the line saws.



The "made in Germany" logo is on all of their saws online.



brokenbudget said:


> could it be that a couple of small parts were mad in china? so they 'have' to add the made in china sticker?
> never seen a made in china sticker on any of my dolmars or kita's, ever.



There's probably not any brand of saw around that doesn't have a few parts made in China.


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

Read post #22


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

166, 

what is the list on a ps510?


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> 166,
> 
> what is the list on a ps510?



I've been selling them for $329 for years.

List is $389.95


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## Brad101 (Jan 7, 2010)

166 said:


> Read post #22



I one I have then must be from before the China date. I'm not terribly surprised they are making some models in China. Everyone will be before long, and most already do.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

From what you're saying, I gather that the Dolmar is just now starting to be made in China. There's still a lot of un-sold saws that were made in Germany. If that's true, look for even the high-dollar saws to come from China in the near future. That's how they do it. If you don't like that just don't buy them! If we had boycotted Wal-Mart when they started this crap you wouldn't see such high unemployment numbers we now have, and we wouldn't have all the junk either.


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## mikefunaro (Jan 7, 2010)

I feel like once you start manufacturing in China it's a slippery slope...i wonder how long until the rest of the saws are made there?


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> From what you're saying, I gather that the Dolmar is just now starting to be made in China. There's still a lot of un-sold saws that were made in Germany. If that's true, look for even the high-dollar saws to come from China in the near future. That's how they do it. If you don't like that just don't buy them! If we had boycotted Wal-Mart when they started this crap you wouldn't see such high unemployment numbers we now have, and we wouldn't have all the junk either.



That's not what I said. The PS-460 & PS-510 are currently manufactured in China but no other models except for the PS-222TH which is not imported here.

*All other Chainsaw models are currently Manufactured in Hamburg Germany.*


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## 056 kid (Jan 7, 2010)

Even though I do not like the new Dolmars, its sad that they are being made in Chinna...


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

I have to honestly say, with everyone here adamantly stating that all the saws are made in germany, that I'm starting to feel a little nervous about the post. I'm know what I saw but now I'm thinking did my eyes play a trick on me? Now I definitely have to go back and settle this. 

I definitely need proof, a pic for everyone here.


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## Rudolf73 (Jan 7, 2010)

I visited my Stihl dealer yesterday and he went though and told me the origins of all the current chainsaw models. 

I was surprised to find out that the MS170 was made in China also. Has anyone else also noticed this ? 

So im guessing Dolmar is going in the same direction....


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> I have to honestly say, with everyone here adamantly stating that all the saws are made in germany, that I'm starting to feel a little nervous about the post. I'm know what I saw but now I'm thinking did my eyes play a trick on me? Now I definitely have to go back and settle this.
> 
> I definitely need proof, a pic for everyone here.



Did you read any of my post's? I answered your question twice.


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## Torin (Jan 7, 2010)

166 said:


> Did you read any of my post's? I answered your question twice.


I was thinking the same thing. Post #12, read it again, slowly...


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## 166 (Jan 7, 2010)

Torin said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Post #22, read it again, slowly...



Post #22 & 31


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 7, 2010)

Rudolf73 said:


> I visited my Stihl dealer yesterday and he went though and told me the origins of all the current chainsaw models.
> 
> I was surprised to find out that the MS170 was made in China also. Has anyone else also noticed this ?
> 
> So im guessing Dolmar is going in the same direction....



Stihl has a 240,000 square foot manufacturing plant in China. They make or have plans to make their homeowner hedge trimmers, chainsaws and brushcutters there.


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## Torin (Jan 7, 2010)

166 said:


> Post #22 & 31


You're right, now I'm missing the details!:censored:


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

IMHO, I think it's a huge mistake for companies like stihl, husky, dolmar, solo, etc to manufacture a saw in china. The quality control just isn't there. An example, I bought some Hella oem foglights for a vw, an actual oem, made by hella in a hella owned china plant. It was a complete piece of junk, when I went to plug the light into the harness the spades pushed straight back into the housing, the fit and finish was nothing like a typical german hella product. Even the made in mexico hella products are much better than china. People are willing to pay extra for a product they believe are made by craftsmen, and not someone who knows nothing/cares about chainsaws and is getting paid slave wages. With 1.3 billion people slave wages are here to stay in china.


166, 

thanks for the honest reply and verifying that ps-510 is made in china, you're a dealer you should definitely kick it up do your rep that this a mistake. Dolmar is a premium brand, great heritage, I have a 120 super which is my favorite saw. If dolmar is having problems hitting the price point with a german saw because of costs, euro exchange rate. Then they should use the makita brand for the made in china stuff, it's only going to hurt dolmar in the long run.

I had a dealer give me a virtually new 58cc made in china saw, looks very robust, mag case. It actually looks like pretty nice. The clutch drive broke, crappy casting or inferior metal. I had a heck of a time locating the part. I looked at the piston through the spark plug hole and the top of the piston is sand cast...no machining on the piston top. I were refer to this as typical chinese quality...which is terrible.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

pics of the chinese saw, if you look close you can see the rough sand cast piston through the spark plug hole. It sounds very nice, but is an absolute dog for a 58cc saw and that's with a 16" bar


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

I will definately bring it up I just got a shipment and mine are all german! Btw Husky also has a plant in china.


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## 056 kid (Jan 7, 2010)

That thing looks strange, u sure its even a dolmar???


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## WadePatton (Jan 7, 2010)

if we would rise up and not _buy_ anything made there...there would be nothing made there.

communism, funded by u.s.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

People want to pay cheap prices for things; manufacturers want to make profits. Is it a mystery to anyone that eventually everything will be made where the labor and environment is the cheapest? All I can say is, if you have a good (saw, in this case) that you like, you better hang onto it.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

The pics I just posted is NOT of the Dolmar but of the generic chinese saw that a local dealer gave me. Like I said it looks nice, sounds nice, but it's junk. A pro would probably break it in a day...really.


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

Just got off the phone with my Dolmar REP. He said that all the saws are german built but the 460-510 is being assembled in china due to trade laws. And at this time that will be the only two model. He also said that all the other companies are having the same done because of the trade laws. He does not like and neither do I but it is what it is!


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## Storm56 (Jan 7, 2010)

166 - Thanks for the heads up. I bought a 510 this fall, it was made in Germany. I would not buy one of the Chinese made units. Sadly as others have mentioned even Stihl is having some of the product line made in China. I confirmed this with a Stihl dealer earlier this fall. 

So I guess the moral here is BE AWARE and check before you buy!


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## 04ultra (Jan 7, 2010)

I heard the Thall's mister drippy 372 was machined in China ............







.


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## Storm56 (Jan 7, 2010)

Javelin said:


> Just got off the phone with my Dolmar REP. He said that all the saws are german built but the 460-510 is being assembled in china due to trade laws. And at this time that will be the only two model. He also said that all the other companies are having the same done because of the trade laws. He does not like and neither do I but it is what it is!



Anyone have any idea what "trade laws" would force a manufacturer to have to build product in China?


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

I have to agree with JohnL, I will not buy a made in china, dolmar, stihl, husky in the foreseeable future new or used. Free yes btw.

Here's another problem, knock-off saws. How are you going to tell the difference between a "real" made in china dolmar or stihl from a total piece of junk made in china knock off. Can you see the nightmare awaiting for these dealers?


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

When the Poulan Pro is made in China, that will be the last straw!


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## WadePatton (Jan 7, 2010)

Storm56 said:


> Anyone have any idea what "trade laws" would force a manufacturer to have to build product in China?


the "trade law" of *profit margins and making $ for the shareholders. *

dime an hour.

that's what they're paid for making all the mardi gras beads* over there. at least that's what the chick who was making them said on the show. the probably got fired for doing the show. she said they get docked a day's pay for talking...

skilled labor probably gets eleven cents.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Just think of the mark-up that dolmar and stihl are making on these saws :jawdrop:


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

The good saw manufacturers are cutting their own throats by letting the Chinese in on their manufacturing. There really will be knock offs that look like a Stihl or Dolmar but are really not. They are great at cloning. Remember the Browning .22 semi-automatic rifle that was copied by the Chinese? Every part that is Chinese will fit in the Browning, I was told. The guns look so much alike that a novice wouldn't know the difference. So be careful in the future if you see a chainsaw in the store labeled "Stehl" or "Domar" or something like that. It will be the counterfeit.


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

I think my 460's and 510' that I have made in germany will somehow dissapear in my garage for my collection.


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## Walt41 (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> pics of the chinese saw, if you look close you can see the rough sand cast piston through the spark plug hole. It sounds very nice, but is an absolute dog for a 58cc saw and that's with a 16" bar



That piston has acne! Looks like a kid made it......because one did.


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## Javelin (Jan 7, 2010)

The bad thing about this thread is it is another bash Dolmar thread were if it were stihl who is doing it or husky who is doing it it is ok for them but not the underdog.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Unfortunately better get used to it, dolmar and stihl are unknowingly giving all chinese built saws a reputable reputation and plants will be closing everywhere else until it's too late.

I feel for the dealer, I'm sure every dealer doesn't want to carry a made in china saw, but what are they going to sell at that price point? They're probably shoving these things down their throat because of all the money they're making on them

In a few years, poulan will back on top MADE IN USA YEAH!

BTW, I think Dolmar is a superior saw..not trying to bash. I think husky is on the right track though by using different brands to hit their price points alon the same lines as a good car manufacturer.


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## flimflam (Jan 7, 2010)

Just because something is made in China dont mean its junk. If it is made in China by a Chinese company then yes it will most likely be junk but if it is a Foreign company and manufactured by Chinese then thats different since employees will be under the Manufacturer's quality control. Honda has a lot of their stuff made in China and you know they make great things. Its just the perception that anything that says made in china means its garbage.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

I guess for me it's that I don't like to see our jobs and others given away to countries that do use slave labor. It's hard to compete here in the US when things cost so much. We can't work for .50 an hour. Another thing I don't like is that they will eventually charge just as much for stuff made in China as it used to be when it was made in the USA and Germany. Several items are like that today, example: DeWalt tools.


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## mikefunaro (Jan 7, 2010)

flimflam said:


> Just because something is made in China dont mean its junk. If it is made in China by a Chinese company then yes it will most likely be junk but if it is a Foreign company and manufactured by Chinese then thats different since employees will be under the Manufacturer's quality control. Honda has a lot of their stuff made in China and you know they make great things. Its just the perception that anything that says made in china means its garbage.



I agree but these are different things. I know dolmar is big, and presumably bigger in other countries than in the US, but Honda is HUGE. They can afford to have their own factory, pay people from Japan/corporate to stay in China and oversee, etc. I'm going to bet that Dolmar cannot do this. I also do not understand how dolmar is not afraid that their models aren't going to be stolen and back doored? I know someone who works for an audio/speaker company. They farmed some of their low-mid range stuff out to China. It was a matter of months before they saw their products being branded under different chinese brands and sold all around. Sure there are laws, but apparently it's very very difficult to enforce.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Have you looked at any chinese built diesel generators? For some reason engines remain to be the Achilles heal for them. Although there have been favorable reviews of the ryobi chinese saw. Ryobi sell it for what $130, what does stihl get for a ms170? $180-$200. A lot of mark-up on the stihl. 

I agree, if the item is made in china it shouldn't be priced as if it was made in germany. I also think Dewalt's stuff is made in Mexico, you can thank NAFTA for that. "you here that giant sucking sound? that's all our jobs goin' to mexaco" ross perot


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## 04ultra (Jan 7, 2010)

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=114347





.


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

All companies are sourcing out to china nowdays I worked on a Poulan Pro push mower in the summer, it had a Kohler branded engine come to find out my dealer found out that Kohler had it made in china, its the exact same engine that MTD puts on there push mowers, MTD calls them powermore engines. Exact same engine except for the top shroud.


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## constantine (Jan 7, 2010)

flimflam said:


> Just because something is made in China dont mean its junk. If it is made in China by a Chinese company then yes it will most likely be junk but if it is a Foreign company and manufactured by Chinese then thats different since employees will be under the Manufacturer's quality control. Honda has a lot of their stuff made in China and you know they make great things. Its just the perception that anything that says made in china means its garbage.



I agree that it is possible to have stuff made in China to a reasonable standard of quality, but it is very difficult. You must have your own people on the ground watching every step of the manufacturing process. Assume that everything you are told is a lie. You must check out and verify everything. Just because it is being made for a foreign company means nothing. The Chinese will steal the drawings, make their own copies, and compete against the very company that hired them. IMHO, it's not worth it. I'll pay the money for a quality product backed by a reputable manufacturer. I have seen ads on various trade websites for Chinese 58cc saws at USD 130 each, in quantities of 100 (a container load). The product has to be crap, assembled by slave labor, made from inferior material, based on drawings most likely stolen from somewhere in the US or Europe. If all you want is a low price, then go for it. You get what you pay for, every time.

Make no mistake, I'm not being a racist or anything of the sort. I have seen this happen and I just don't trust the mainland Chinese. The Taiwanese are a whole different ballgame. They make excellent electronics and optics, and for the most part, deal honestly.


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

As long as the heart of the saw remains GERMAN the china made dolmars most likely will still be good saws.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

Let's face it, every time the U.S. went to war over there in the far east the Chinese backed the people we were fighting. I consider them traditional enemies, but apparently our government does not, or doesn't care. I prefer to buy items made by people who were friendly to us, if possible. Basically it means I'd rather buy American, Canadian, British, etc. I believe the Chinese really don't care what kind of product they sell to us. We keep finding lead paint in kids toys and they keep making excuses, but I wonder if they're even checking things like that. Probably, under Obamacare, we'll be buying medicine from them!


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## constantine (Jan 7, 2010)

Trigger Man said:


> As long as the heart of the saw remains GERMAN the china made dolmars most likely will still be good saws.



Which part of the saw is the "heart?"


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

constantine said:


> Which part of the saw is the "heart?"



LOL, I'm speaking of The major components, P&C,crank case, crank shaft,etc


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

By the way, the mower shop close to my home sells Dolmars and still has several that have been in his store for awhile, so they're probably not Chinese.


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

Did'nt Stihl use p&c's made over seas for the 361 and there still good saws.


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## porsche965 (Jan 7, 2010)

There was a time in the late 70s and early 1980s when everyone made Jokes about Japan and their Honda Civic cars. Ugly turds no doubt. 

The Germans laughed at Toyota when they said they would produce a Luxury Car with a V-8 engine. Lexus arrived and re-defined excellence in engineering in the luxury car market. 

Don't think for one moment these Chinese in time won't be a strong factor in Chainsaws. Sales and American support is what made the Japanese into the 2nd largest economy behind us. 

I don't plan to give China any support if I can help it. Anyone who treats the Earth and Animals like they do aren't human beings in my book.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

Totally agree with Porsche..


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## Philbert (Jan 7, 2010)

constantine said:


> The label says "*Dolmar GmbH, 22045, Hamburg, Germany*."



You used to be able to tell the US made Husqvarnas by a similar label: Metal, riveted to the case, said something like "Husqvarna AB Sweden". Did _*not*_ say 'made in Sweden', but only the Swedish saws had them.

I noticed recently that the lower end Huskys at Lowes now also have the 'Sweden' label on the case, but also a 'Made in the USA' sticker near the handle.

So, just because they advise you that the Dolmar company is located in Germany, it doesn't mean that they are saying that the saw was made there.

Buyer beware!

Philbert (made in Detroit)


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

Anyone who treats the Earth and Animals like they do aren't human beings in my book. 


I don't know about that, some people on this continent are'nt doing much better.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

Trigger Man said:


> Anyone who treats the Earth and Animals like they do aren't human beings in my book.
> 
> 
> I don't know about that, some people on this continent are'nt doing much better.



I think the dingo ate your baby


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## Trigger Man (Jan 7, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> I think the dingo ate your baby



? Newman


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## flyboy (Jan 7, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I guess for me it's that I don't like to see our jobs and others given away to countries that do use slave labor. It's hard to compete here in the US when things cost so much. We can't work for .50 an hour. Another thing I don't like is that they will eventually charge just as much for stuff made in China as it used to be when it was made in the USA and Germany. Several items are like that today, example: DeWalt tools.



I absolutely 159,000% will never ever buy a DeWalt toy (tool as THEY call it)......

But a significant amount of blame has to fall with US labor unions for the downfall of this countries manufacturing.

Labor bosses were paid huge amounts of money today for labor contracts they knew could never hold up in the long run. They are the true criminals.


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## flyboy (Jan 7, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Let's face it, every time the U.S. went to war over there in the far east the Chinese backed the people we were fighting. I consider them traditional enemies, but apparently our government does not, or doesn't care. I prefer to buy items made by people who were friendly to us, if possible. Basically it means I'd rather buy American, Canadian, British, etc. I believe the Chinese really don't care what kind of product they sell to us. We keep finding lead paint in kids toys and they keep making excuses, but I wonder if they're even checking things like that. Probably, under Obamacare, we'll be buying medicine from them!




ehemmm.....During WWdeuce....germany was bad and china was an ally.....unless my public school education fails me again.


I agree Obamacare sucks.


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## WadePatton (Jan 7, 2010)

flimflam said:


> Just because something is made in China dont mean its junk. If it is made in China by a Chinese company then yes it will most likely be junk but if it is a Foreign company and manufactured by Chinese then thats different since employees will be under the Manufacturer's quality control. Honda has a lot of their stuff made in China and you know they make great things. Its just the perception that anything that says made in china means its garbage.



dude, you don't get it. not _all_ of it anyway.


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## eyolf (Jan 7, 2010)

It seems there are two reasons for choosing not to buy Chinese goods:
A)the quality is probably not good enough
B) they haven't been very honest and upright

But there are other points to consider, some of them were brought up by #### Cheney in a speech several years ago. Now I'm not a registered Republican, and lost a lot of love for the Bush administration, but I had to sit up and take notice:

If we set up Chinese in business and "assist" them (hold their feet to the fire) they will have no choice but to eventually join the world at our level...and that's the goal, isn't it? If the factories that western businesses set up to make and sell goods prosper, they "win"...the fly-by-night operators sow the seeds of their own destruction every time they pass off some more substandard product. But when they see how to do it well, they will do so. As we influence the government there, we will eventually see them enforce trade laws; the fly-by-nighters will eventually be unable to gain market share of any kind.

Yes, it will take some time. But the goal is to have China be a strategic trading partner with too much investment in relations with the rest of the world to keep pulling stupid stunts.

A worthy goal, IMO. I hope it works. And I'm willing to do my part...if a Chinese product will meet my needs and expectations, I will consider it, especially if it is marketed and backed by a friendly name.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

One of our memories fail us...I don't remember China ever being an ally. I remember Germany, Japan, and Italy being the enemy in ww2. Russia was kind of an ally then, but only briefly. Patton wanted to go in and wipe them out; he was probably right in thinking that. I don't remember playing much of a role in ww2. We didn't have much to do with China until Nixon made his infamous trip to China back during his presidency, I forget which year, 72 sound about right?
Anyway, China used that to full advantage and has been using us ever since or so they think. Where they're screwing up now is, apparently they don't realize we're broke but just printing money to pay them for their goods.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

I think the eventual goal should be for each nation to be independent of each other. Right now we're going in the opposite direction, making dependents of all countries, one for the other. The global economy sucks...maybe with the coming fuel shortage we won't be able to travel the world so much.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

I guess I got off the subject a little bit...sorry about that.


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## mowoodchopper (Jan 7, 2010)

I wonder why china has so many kids?


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 7, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I wonder why china has so many kids?




good catholics


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 7, 2010)

I don't know about China's kids but I'm awfully glad that their country doesn't abut ours. You think illegal immigration is bad with Mexico, it would be terrible with 5 billion people living in poor conditions next door.


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## Justsaws (Jan 7, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I wonder why china has so many kids?



Not enough dingos.


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## mowoodchopper (Jan 7, 2010)

Justsaws said:


> Not enough dingos.



Now that was funny! LMAO


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## Justsaws (Jan 7, 2010)

Please turn of your TVs, stereos, ipods, cellphones, computers, autos, appliances and stop taking your cheap generic drugs. The Chinese content of these devices demand that you supposed patriots stop purchasing and using Chinese versions, perhaps you will be happier with products purchased from India, Russia, Canada or maybe Mexico, the Philippines, etc..

Foreign is foreign, go yell at parents and their parents about Chinese chainsaws. Be sure to drive over in your Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Volkswagon, Subaru, insert viable car manufacturers here because you cannot call them on a phone to talk to them anymore since you hate Chinese things.


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## mowoodchopper (Jan 8, 2010)

Justsaws said:


> Please turn of your TVs, stereos, ipods, cellphones, computers, autos, appliances and stop taking your cheap generic drugs. The Chinese content of these devices demand that you supposed patriots stop purchasing and using Chinese versions, perhaps you will be happier with products purchased from India, Russia, Canada or maybe Mexico, the Philippines, etc..
> 
> Foreign is foreign, go yell at parents and their parents about Chinese chainsaws. Be sure to drive over in your Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Volkswagon, Subaru, insert viable car manufacturers here because you cannot call them on a phone to talk to them anymore since you hate Chinese things.



I like chinese women, Korean, Filipinos etc


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## Arrowhead (Jan 8, 2010)

mowoodchopper said:


> I like chinese women, Korean, Filipinos etc



:love1:


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## reccutter (Jan 8, 2010)

one thing I didn't notice mentioned is the comparison between a $130 saw and $300 chinmar. Perhaps VW, I'm sure a picture of the P/c would help(even though I still won't buy one).What gets me is the dime/hr labor but the saw still costs the same,oh yea isn't, china communist. Also,I do like my chinese diesel generator. would not have bought it except the goober selling it thought it had a "major" oil leak which turned out to be a chinese o'ring 19cents.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2010)

I think I've only bought one new saw my whole life...back in the late seventies or early eighties I bought a brand new Homelite Super 2. Still have it, still works fine. All the others (probably 25 or so) I bought used or they were given to me. Comparing used saws usually depend on how much they have been used. They all seem about the same when they're old.


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

mikefunaro said:


> [snip]
> They can afford to have their own factory, pay people from Japan/corporate to stay in China and oversee, etc. I'm going to bet that Dolmar cannot do this.
> [snip]



Mike, _Makita_ own Dolmar and have factories, their own factories making power tools in China, why wouldn't they stump up for a clean field *** one too ?

Stihl have, and Stihl also now owns Zama carburettors which are also made there.
Husqvarna own factories there too.

All the worlds major manufacturers have or are planning manufacturing facilities there. 

IMO it isn't the cost of labour and (lack of) anti pollution, health care, workers comp, etc that makes China competitive, it's that their government artificially manipulates their currency, pegged to the US dollar at a ridiculously low exchange rate to keep costs in check and make exports attractive.
It's market manipulation on a grand scale.


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## dingeryote (Jan 8, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Mike, _Makita_ own Dolmar and have factories, their own factories making power tools in China, why wouldn't they stump up for a clean field *** one too ?
> 
> Stihl have, and Stihl also now owns Zama carburettors which are also made there.
> Husqvarna own factories there too.
> ...



BINGO!!!!!!!
WE have a WINNNAH!!!!!!!!!

The subsidization of the matter is also a grey area of GATT.
But if you Aussies pulled that crap, France and Spain would scream bloody murder..and the U.S. can't cuz we are now owned by china.LOL!!

Free market non-Communist countrys get my dollars unless I'm stuck with no choice. Unfortunately as it's been pointed out, it's becoming hard.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> One of our memories fail us...I don't remember China ever being an ally.
> [snip]




Go and study some world history 

Very, very briefly (trying to remember my Modern History from 1982  ) China was right royally screwed over, nay raped and pillaged by the Western Powers for over a century before the fall of the last Empire. From around the turn of the century the country basically became a failed state, with warlords and factions fighting for power.

Ostensibly Sun Yat Seng, then after his death, Chiang Kai Shek and the Kuomungtung (sp?) (KMT) an _ally_ of the US were in Power between the wars and through WWII, although the Japanese, who had control of the Korean Peninsula from around the turn of the century and had invaded China as the first major step of their expansionary policies before WWII (remember the Rape of Nanking ?) controlled a large area of the East coast of mainland China.

After WWII, the communists led by a cabal, one of whose commanders was MaoTseTung/MaoZeDong engaged the KMT in a civil war and eventually forced the KMT off the mainland onto the island of Formosa, now known as Taiwan, so we then had the Communist controlled mainland and an ostensibly 'democratic' but actually a military one party state island (until the last decade) supported by the west.

Two China's, one closed off for many years, one supported by the West.
Now the sleeping Tiger has re-awakened, engagement (trade) is sure better than confrontation where no one wins.

[edit]Some info on Sun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> <snip>
> The subsidization of the matter is also a grey area of GATT.
> But if you Aussies pulled that crap, France and Spain would scream bloody murder..and the U.S. can't cuz we are now owned by china.LOL!!
> 
> ...




The best thing that ever happened to this county was the currency being floated in the early eighties (by a [socialist] in US terms govt)

The currency pegging that China is doing will bite them right royally on the arse very soon, and many countries are quietly agitating for them to take their hands off the levers, but we all know how terrified the regime is over there when it comes to losing control of anything.


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

And getting further OT, China's chief negotiator from Copenhägen has been removed/shifted sideways/had his arse handed to him for the debacle that happened there.

Everyone privately, and publicly the European powers blame China for stonewalling any decisions whatsoever.

Prior to the conference, the Chinese believed they were going there to be congratulated for their target announcements announced just prior.

To save face domestically, JIC a decision was made that may not be palatable at home they placed an experienced UN negotiator in place of Wen JiaBaio (sp ?) their leader, whereas every other country had their leaders present and negotiating on the final crucial days. 
The problem was, their negotiator had no authority to OK anything whatsoever and was trying to deal with world leaders that could actually say yay or nay, so he stalled on everything. 
No binding decision, bloody angry world leaders, and it now turns out an embarrassed China.

Who'd a thunk it ?


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## dingeryote (Jan 8, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> The best thing that ever happened to this county was the currency being floated in the early eighties (by a [socialist] in US terms govt)
> 
> The currency pegging that China is doing will bite them right royally on the arse very soon, and many countries are quietly agitating for them to take their hands off the levers, but we all know how terrified the regime is over there when it comes to losing control of anything.



I agree.

When, not if, the training wheels come off of all those subsidized ventures, and the currency corrects, it's gonna be flat ugly to not have domestic production in other countrys.

There's too much balanced on too thin of a spindle, and the slightest wobble is all that it will take.

You guys just had incentives, not part buy ins.

A Chineese crash means a Chineese takeover and a demand for immediate renumeration by siezure of assets or worse.
There is no such thing as a "Tame Communist government" in the end.

Sadly, it cannot come soon enough IMO.
Too much longer and the global system as a whole would crash with them and I could not bear to watch the Ipod riots. LOL!!

Interesting times...

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

And getting further OT, China's chief negotiator from Copenhägen has been removed/shifted sideways/had his arse handed to him for the debacle that happened there.

Everyone privately, and publicly the European powers blame China for stonewalling any decisions whatsoever.

Prior to the conference, the Chinese believed they were going there to be congratulated for their target announcements announced just prior.

To save face domestically, JIC a decision was made that may not be palatable at home they placed an experienced UN negotiator in place of Wen JiaBaio (sp ?) their leader, whereas every other country had their leaders present and negotiating on the final crucial days. 
The problem was, their negotiator had no authority to OK anything whatsoever and was trying to deal with world leaders that could actually say yay or nay, so he stalled on everything. 
No binding decision, bloody angry world leaders, and it now turns out an embarrassed China.
[edit] They needed a scape goat, so their poor negotiator cops the fallout. Poor bugger was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Who'd a thunk it ?


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> [snip]
> 
> Sadly, it cannot come soon enough IMO.
> Too much longer and the global system as a whole would crash with them and I could not bear to watch the Ipod riots. LOL!!
> ...



Yep, the whole thing is a house of cards.

I was hoping that what the world has been through in the last twelve months would be the correction that we had to have, sadly, the real one will make what you lot have been through look like a kids picnic.

Hopefully we'll still have the www to compare notes


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Yep, the whole thing is a house of cards.
> 
> I was hoping that what the world has been through in the last twelve months would be the correction that we had to have, sadly, the real one will make what you lot have been through look like a kids picnic.
> 
> Hopefully we'll still have the www to compare notes




Yes, as you have pointed out, the currency control by a Communist regime is the big thing here. Others here have compared China to Japan and have used the rise of the Japanese automobile industry as a "model" for what may happen in China. I don't think so. The two cultures are fundamentally different. The ancient Japanese concepts of personal honor and the culture of Bushido are totally absent in China. The Japanese strive for excellence, and play the game to win. They now graduate more engineers per year than any country except India. The US doesn't even come close. The Japanese place a high value on craftsmanship as a reflection of personal commitment to an ideal. 

The Chinese have no such "culture" left in their economic and political interactions. The Communist regime is like all Progressive/Socialist forms of government - it wants complete control over everything, and will do anything to get it. 

The "Chinese Miracle" may be the awakening of its own people to the realities of economic progress, personal property, and an improving standard of living. When the poor jokers over there will no longer work for $2.00 a day, what do you think will happen? The infrastructure is weak, the pollution is unbelievable, and the government is raping the land and the people for hard currency. Dream though we may, we are stuck on the same planet with those fools. 

There will be interesting times ahead for us all.


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## eyolf (Jan 8, 2010)

Constantine's "awakening" is part of Cheney's speech from back before 2001...the hope was, and is, that the chinese people would eventually learn to tell the difference between a more responsible operator, like Stihl, and a less rersponsible one, like the guys we read about that erect a facility in two weeks, run full bore for a few days, then dissappear.

Eventually they would demand better. AS their standard of living rose, theiur products would be comparable in all ways to everyone else's, including price.

The problem for us in the west is that while we are working to bring this about so our grandchildren live in a better world, some of us don't want to look ahead that far.


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## REJ2 (Jan 8, 2010)

I remember as a kid back in the 60's and 70's, anything made in Japan was pure junk. Now 30-40 years later the better stuff comes from Japan. So when I'm in my 80's-90's I'll probably have some good Chinese stuff. Cant wait!! REJ2


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## rob066 (Jan 8, 2010)

The way all this is going all saws will say: Asembled in Germany or USA etc. of foreign parts . They will not say made in these countries. The foreign parts being 95% of the saw ,all coming from China. Big companies cheapening out seems like its the way of the world. Seems soon ther will be no quality left in products.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2010)

Thing is, China seems unwilling to play by the rules...the Stihl knock-off is a prime example. Do allies really treat each other that way? I'm saying that China is no ally, never was, and probably never will be. Just because we aren't engaged in a war right now doesn't make us allies. America is making a huge mistake by giving over our manufacturing base to them. It should be self-evident by looking at our economy, our unemployment, our government borrowing.


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

eyolf said:


> Constantine's "awakening" is part of Cheney's speech from back before 2001...the hope was, and is, that the chinese people would eventually learn to tell the difference between a more responsible operator, like Stihl, and a less rersponsible one, like the guys we read about that erect a facility in two weeks, run full bore for a few days, then dissappear.
> 
> Eventually they would demand better. AS their standard of living rose, theiur products would be comparable in all ways to everyone else's, including price.
> 
> The problem for us in the west is that while we are working to bring this about so our grandchildren live in a better world, some of us don't want to look ahead that far.




Anybody can say what they want about Cheney, but he is no dummy. I was part a group which briefed him on a program when he was Secretary of Defense. He knew his stuff and asked all the right questions. 

That being said, I wouldn't go hunting with him, though! :biggrinbounce2:


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## weimedog (Jan 8, 2010)

Bottom line if people buy these products the business model works.


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## MotorSeven (Jan 8, 2010)

I have an answer for all of this.....

How about a some of us get together here and start an 100% American made saw company?

Brad....Tommy.....etc?

this could get Andy out of mothballs...

could it be done.....woud we dare to try?




All joking aside, due to this recession/depression, we(the US) are prime for new companies to start up. Think about it.

RD


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm not saying businesses don't make money sending our jobs to places like China. Obviously they do or they wouldn't keep doing it. I'm saying that we as consumers should buy our goods from the people that don't. If we'd done that in the beginning instead of thinking about saving money, more of us wouldn't have lost our jobs. (My job went to China, actually). We will all pay the higher price anyway by higher taxes on the ones that ARE working, to pay for unemployment, welfare, schools, etc. The ones in the lower income brackets will pay because subsidies like food stamps and other charitable giving will be cut back.


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## weimedog (Jan 8, 2010)

The cost of manufacturing is not simply the cost of labor. By the time you go thru all the permitting processes and regulation on core manufacturing processes like casting and plating and thats before taxes..the costs outweigh any possible competitive advantage with those foreign concerns. Thats been the reality for years. The political powers wanted the USA to no longer be a manufacturing based economy 30-40 years ago. Thats what we are ending up with now. So now we deal with it. 

My hunch is the "trade laws" that Dolmar is dealing with are Chinese. They see a huge market potential and the Chinese probably demand a portion of the products of a company who wants to sell in China be manufactured in ..China. Not a bad thing to ask in my opinion. Its up to us and our government who is supposed to represent us.....(Lol) to watch out for our interest here in the same types of ways!


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## weimedog (Jan 8, 2010)

And there is this.....a very common deal for years and years.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100106/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_filtering_software_china


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## kgreer (Jan 8, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> I went by a local Dolmar dealer to buy some parts saws and the dealer was kind of bragging about the dolmar ps 510 being a 50cc saw for around $300 compared to the stihls and the huskies of the same class. I thought wow, $300 for a 50cc german dolmar. So I picked it up to check it out, and I take a close look at the manufacture's sticker and it stated the saw was made in china. Are the engines still made in germany and it's assembled in china or is the whole saw made in china? Which dolmars are still made in germany? From their brochure it looks like it's just the ps-9010.



Made in Germany, or made in China, still not MADE IN AMERICA!


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2010)

I guess we can't expect Stihl to be made in America since they are German, but I think McCulloch, Poulan, Homelite, and several others which I think were started in America remain here with at least some of their manufacturing. Our government should do it's job of maintaining a level playing field instead of bowing to foreign interests. And it wouldn't hurt if we as Americans demand that our government let up on the red tape and tax burdens and other regulations of starting and maintaining a business.


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

weimedog said:


> The cost of manufacturing is not simply the cost of labor. By the time you go thru all the permitting processes and regulation on core manufacturing processes like casting and plating and thats before taxes..the costs outweigh any possible competitive advantage with those foreign concerns. Thats been the reality for years. The political powers wanted the USA to no longer be a manufacturing based economy 30-40 years ago. Thats what we are ending up with now. So now we deal with it.
> 
> My hunch is the "trade laws" that Dolmar is dealing with are Chinese. They see a huge market potential and the Chinese probably demand a portion of the products of a company who wants to sell in China be manufactured in ..China. Not a bad thing to ask in my opinion. Its up to us and our government who is supposed to represent us.....(Lol) to watch out for our interest here in the same types of ways!





You're dead nuts on. Also, think of the cost of compliance with all the OSHA and EPA regs. China has none of that. Not even workers' comp. They are nothing but _*animals*_, man.

You think I'm kidding? Harvard Business Review ran an article three or four years ago about an American (or European, I forget) manufacturing manager who went over to straighten out a plant where they made compressors for air conditioners, refrigerators, and the like. One of the first things he did was institute a rule against the workers defecating at their workstations. We're talking *third world*, baby. Even the Chinese copy (I don't know if it is licensed or not) of the venerable AK-47 is a piece of crap.


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 8, 2010)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pKv6RcXa2UI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pKv6RcXa2UI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pKv6RcXa2UI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pKv6RcXa2UI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm not going to disassemble the chinese saw to look in the cylinder. I'm afraid I won't be able to get it back together. 

I've always tried to buy the best product that I could afford, be it cars, power tools, etc. I recently purchased a cordless power tool kit. I originally wanted bosch, or festool, out of my price range. So it came down to milwaukee, makita, dewalt. Milwaukee china, Makita japan, Dewalt mexico. I went with I thought was the best built product which is the japanese made makita. Milwaukee was the first one eliminated.

IMHO, the quality just isn't there on the chainsaws, engines, that I've seen. Also, when a product comes from china, they don't want to sell you parts for it down the road. The chinese chainsaw that I have, the clutch drive actually came from a completely different branded saw from Nothern tools. I believe this saw is a branded Harbor Freight saw or something. I could only find info from the parent company in china and no contact info in the usa. The clutch drive was a cast piece not machined from a solid piece or drop forged. The crankshaft has a pronounced lip on the end where the clutch bearing slides over. The bearing didn't really want to come off so I greased it in place. I've never seen that, not even on the cheapest poulan.

Their gov't does not enforce and trade infrigemnt or copyright laws, so you get these knockoffs that literally one time only use items, no parts, no support. 

All the chainsaw companies can make a good saw in europe or the usa, but why? They can make a marginal product in china, and make twice the profit. 

It all comes down to slave labor and company greed. 

Every car manufacturer has plants in china, but they won't bring any of those products to the us, some parts yes, but not complete products. Why, terrible quality, we do not have any true chinese owned, engineered, built cars in the usa because of their lousy build quality.

I just recently built a house, and thank god, bought sheetrock from USG made in the usa. Apparently, some builders began using sheetrock manufactured in china. The chinese sheetrock out gassed a gas/vapor that is apparently attacking the copper wiring in the homes that is was installed. What are these homeowners going to do now? Who do they go after?

The chinese business model is to build a product at the absolute lowest cost, if that means using inferior materials even against what the engineers spec's so be it. Eventually eliminate all the manufacturing elsewhere and then have a captive market. Remember when Home Depot first came to your neighborhood and what they did to the local hardware stores, alot were eliminated and the ones that survived got stronger. Now it seems there's a backlash against HD, I try not to buy there, same thing with wallyworld.


Quantity over Quality

I just watched a show on 60 minutes about the water shortage in S.Cal and it showed unemployed migrant workers at a shelter getting canned goods. The canned tomatoes came from china WTF. Do you think those tin cans have a special coating inside to prevent the tomatoes from reacting with the metal? doubt it, they'll probably eat them, get sick, and be in our hospitals with no insurance bleeding our country dry. For what, so the company can make 2 cents more on each can. 

And yes I do own/buy chinese products...sometimes there is no other choice. Just try and find a toy that's not made in china. But I will say if I have two items that are similar I will buy the item that is NOT made in china. Virtually all of our major appliances are bosch, a german company yes, but made in the usa. I could care less if the GNP #'s go to germany if the plant where it was made is here in the usa. I know I helped keep somebody employed here. Maytag, GE, usa companies made in china, I'm not buying. TV's you're screwed, it's china or reading books.


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## 04ultra (Jan 8, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> I guess we can't expect Stihl to be made in America since they are German,





Ever hear of Virginia Beach VA.....................Plenty of stihls built in the USA ..







.


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## indiansprings (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm as much as a patriot as anybody, combined active and reserve service of over twenty years, but I can tell you that most Americans do not realize that almost 2/3 of the worlds population make under a dollar an hour in mfg settings. It is not only China, but most of the African continent, Central America(Honduras,Ecuador,etc, most of Indonesia, the pacific rim excluding the Philippines and Taiwan, look at Pakistan and that area, Egypt isn't much better. As much as I hated every minute of it, I worked at a mid management level and executive level for a big box chain for eighteen years, remaining grounded by keeping the farm. I then worked for five and a half years for one of the most respected names in the firearms and hunting industry as an executive in charge of sales to the big boxes. I have traveled globally looking and touring factories. It is a huge mistake and fallacy to believe that the Chinese cannot mfg. quality goods, I've been in factories making sub assemblies for Mercedes, Cummings, and BMW. The Chinese are capable of mfg. goods just as goods as the Germans or the Americans, it's all in the quality control and management of the factory.
I have been in factories staffed by German and Belgian management, American management as well. They use the same top of the line German / Japanese CNC machines used in every other precision factory in the world.
There are no environmental rules that I can tell in China and it is going to catch up with them, the are polluting at a unprecedented rate, there are mfg centers and cities where you need to wear a mask, the air is blue from the exhaust of thousands of two stroke scooters and emissions from plants.
Last time I was there (six years ago) a college educated worker made .30 to .45 cents an hour, they live in factory owned dorms and get one day off a month. I struggle with buying anything from China personally but for Stihl, Dolmar and Husky it is a matter of economics, they can make a 170 in China and sell it for 179.99 and make a few bucks, remember each company needs to make at in the neighborhood of 30 percent just to cover their operating cost, lights,employee benefits,cost of mfg, marketing etc., if they made the 170 in Germany or the US it would probably be in the 250.00 price range. They are just doing what it takes to survive, you and I may not buy a saw for a 179.99 made in China but the majority will, we at AS are a different breed, the companies have to cater to the majority. As China's grow's the labor will become more expensive, look at Japan and Taiwan, it's not cheap there anymore, there is already a shift in the garment industry, China is getting too expensive, Africa is cheaper and many garment makers are starting to shift their production to either Africa or Viet Nam.
It isn't going to change anytime soon,the prices that consumers are willing to pay along with retailers margin pressures will continue to force mfgs to look for the least expensive sources they can find. It's basic economics whether we like it or not it's here to stay.


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## tdi-rick (Jan 8, 2010)

eyolf said:


> [snip]
> 
> Eventually they would demand better. AS their standard of living rose, theiur products would be comparable in all ways to everyone else's, including price.
> 
> [snip]



and it has happened in Taiwan, who are _Chinese_, the only difference form the mainlanders is political, the islanders are just the ones that lost a civil war.
Some of Taiwan's manufacturing is now Worlds Best and make no mistake, the Chinese are brilliant business people, it's in their DNA. 
50 years of Communism won't wipe that out.

The fundamental difference in thinking between East Asians and Westerners is the definition of freedom.
Here it is speech, thought, democracy.
East Asia it is money.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 8, 2010)

The problem with china, is the work force demand will NEVER out strip the supply of labor. When you have 40-100 people waiting in line for the same job, why would you raise wages or give benefits? It's a communist regime, if you try to organize...it gets crushed by the gov't those workers are jailed and replaced the next day. It's never going to end. There has never been a situation like this ever in the world. A pseudo free market economy under communist rule.


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## spike60 (Jan 8, 2010)

04ultra said:


> I heard the Thall's mister drippy 372 was machined in China ............
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on Steve, what is your friggin' problem?


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## indiansprings (Jan 8, 2010)

Most of China's mfg takes place within 100 to 150 miles of the coast, they are already suffering from skilled labor shortages, once you get to the interior they still don't have the infrastructure to mfg, reliable electric power is one of the main issues, they don't have a reliable grid yet, most big factories generate their own electricity of have backup. Once you get to the interior it is remote and still very isolated, the majority of those people do not want to relocate to the city, they are happy either farming or fishing. The interior is where the cottage labor takes place, example xmas tree lights, they haul out all the components for the lights and usually the whole village will participate in the mfg of the lights and get paid for what they assemble. The company comes out and picks the lights up as get a truck load done. Wicker baskets are also done this way. As China becomes more westernized, in the bigger cities all the familiar US restaurant chains are operating along with Wal-Marts, Costco's and other retailers, the younger Chinese will demand a higher standard of living, it's only a matter of time before labor cost will escalate.


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## spike60 (Jan 8, 2010)

This thread, of all that I've read since I've joined is at the top of the depressing list. Can't pick on Dolmar though, as the inevitable tide seemingly can't be stopped. Why? Because the uncomfortable truth is that the American consumer will NOT support the American, (or European), worker if it means pulling an extra dollar out of his own moth infested wallet. 

I have tried to take a higher road in my own store, but sometimes I feel like the guys at the Alamo must have felt. For instance, we have 3 manufactureres from which we can buy snow throwers; Ariens, Husky, and Cub Cadet. We told Cub, that since they went and sourced an engine from China, that we would not order or sell their blowers at all. Decided to stick with Ariens and Husky which were still, for the most part using Briggs motors. But even both of those companies are using LCT engines on their lower price point units. Like I said, depressing. VERY depressing. Almost as depressing as that quasi-muslim marxist freak we have in the White House.

Again, even though I'm no longer dealer, I find myself defending Dolmar here. It's not just them; they're all doing it to one degree or another. No matter how you look at it though, It just plain sucks, doesn't it?


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

*How to break the downward spiral?*



vw_motorsports said:


> The problem with china, is the work force demand will NEVER out strip the supply of labor. When you have 40-100 people waiting in line for the same job, why would you raise wages or give benefits? It's a communist regime, if you try to organize...it gets crushed by the gov't those workers are jailed and replaced the next day. It's never going to end. There has never been a situation like this ever in the world. A pseudo free market economy under communist rule.



It looks to me as if most of the AS bunch is on the same page. Let me try to put it all together. 

You have an economy with central planning and an inexhaustible labor force, no safety or environmental regulations, and a government which will achieve year over year growth in GDP an any cost - monetary, human, environmental. You then couple that with a currency which is kept at an artificially low value compared to the US Dollar, Japanese Yen, Euro, etc. They churn out the cheap goods which people buy because of the low price. The flood of foreign currency which comes in is then invested in US Treasury securities (primarily, but the ChiComs are talking about diversification - really, there is no market in the world which has the depth to absorb the Chinese investment except the US Treasury). So with dollars borrowed from the Chinese, the US finances huge Federal deficits and (until very recently) individual household deficits. People take their credit cards to Wal-Mart and buy more Chinese crap. 

Where does it lead?? There are many possible scenarios - each one a bigger disaster than the next.

Most likely (IMHO) is that the Chinese make noises about the safety of Treasury securities, so interest rates begin to climb - slowly at first, then at an increasing pace as a state or two defaults on its General Obligations and the Feds come to bail them out. The US and Europe go into another economic dip (the W-shaped "recession") and the price of hard assets (gold, commodities, real estate, firearms and ammo) skyrockets. There is tremendous inflation and no jobs. In the resulting political instability, anything can happen.

Believe me, I'm not being an alarmist here. This same program has been played out in history many times, starting with the ancient Romans, and leading all the way up to the German hyperinflation of the 1930's. 

All I'm saying is that there is a definite possibility that things could get very very ugly. The wise will prepare themselves.

A Conservative US government may be able to salvage the situation by curtailing Federal spending, enacting import regulations requiring that imported goods must be made in factories which meet our safety and environmental standards, and doing anything necessary to stimulate the growth of business and commerce (like tax cuts). In so doing, the size of the Federal government would be forced to shrink. That's the big question. Will any government reduce its own domestic influence to insure the survival of the Nation?

I don't know. What I do know is that these are serious times, and serious policies are necessary.


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## indiansprings (Jan 8, 2010)

Rep for you Spike60, you hit the nail on the head. The majority of consumer's 
wouldn't pay 30.00 more for a American or European product, they think they
are just saving 30.00 and don't realize, it's lost jobs, loss of skilled labor, loss of mfg. they are really supporting. Dolmar is just doing what they have to do to survive in a the global economy of today.


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## constantine (Jan 8, 2010)

spike60 said:


> Again, even though I'm no longer dealer, I find myself defending Dolmar here. It's not just them; they're all doing it to one degree or another. No matter how you look at it though, It just plain sucks, doesn't it?



I am truly sorry that you are depressed. We have a challenge here equal to the one facing our fathers and grandfathers in 1941. We are Americans. We can and will prevail. For the sake of our children and grandchildren, we must prevail.


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## weimedog (Jan 8, 2010)

spike60 said:


> This thread, of all that I've read since I've joined is at the top of the depressing list. Can't pick on Dolmar though, as the inevitable tide seemingly can't be stopped. Why? Because the uncomfortable truth is that the American consumer will NOT support the American, (or European), worker if it means pulling an extra dollar out of his own moth infested wallet.
> 
> I have tried to take a higher road in my own store, but sometimes I feel like the guys at the Alamo must have felt. For instance, we have 3 manufactureres from which we can buy snow throwers; Ariens, Husky, and Cub Cadet. We told Cub, that since they went and sourced an engine from China, that we would not order or sell their blowers at all. Decided to stick with Ariens and Husky which were still, for the most part using Briggs motors. But even both of those companies are using LCT engines on their lower price point units. Like I said, depressing. VERY depressing. Almost as depressing as that quasi-muslim marxist freak we have in the White House.
> 
> Again, even though I'm no longer dealer, I find myself defending Dolmar here. It's not just them; they're all doing it to one degree or another. No matter how you look at it though, It just plain sucks, doesn't it?




Sorry.

So thats one reason to support J-Reds! And OLD saws with historical persepectives! AND we here can do a little to stem the tide by pointing out these things and by supporting our dealers here who choose to keep the Euro, Japanese, and USA options on thier shelves.

As an aside, I grew up racing first European and then Japanese motorcycles. One thing I have to say about both..they came here, learned our racing and built better and better race bikes. Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawaski, and now KTM invested here to learn before offering products. The thing I'm seeing from the other pacific rim companies is just dumping look-a-like crap hoping to flood the market with junk. There are even Honda copy motors for small mini bikes (80-110cc) class four stroke...it just bothers me and I won't buy them or let a member of our family buy them. Chainsaws? Forget it. I'll rebuild an old J-Red or Homie before even considering a Chinese made saw of any brand. Period. Maybe if that message gets back, maybe Dolmar will sell Chinese made saws in China. Drop those lines from here.


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## Javelin (Jan 8, 2010)

Shoot an email to dolmar about the china thing! They are one of the few companies I deal with that actually will listen to you!


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## BloodOnTheIce (Jan 8, 2010)

spike60 said:


> This thread, of all that I've read since I've joined is at the top of the depressing list. Can't pick on Dolmar though, as the inevitable tide seemingly can't be stopped. Why? Because the uncomfortable truth is that the American consumer will NOT support the American, (or European), worker if it means pulling an extra dollar out of his own moth infested wallet.
> 
> I have tried to take a higher road in my own store, but sometimes I feel like the guys at the Alamo must have felt. For instance, we have 3 manufactureres from which we can buy snow throwers; Ariens, Husky, and Cub Cadet. We told Cub, that since they went and sourced an engine from China, that we would not order or sell their blowers at all. Decided to stick with Ariens and Husky which were still, for the most part using Briggs motors. But even both of those companies are using LCT engines on their lower price point units. Like I said, depressing. VERY depressing. Almost as depressing as that quasi-muslim marxist freak we have in the White House.
> 
> Again, even though I'm no longer dealer, I find myself defending Dolmar here. It's not just them; they're all doing it to one degree or another. No matter how you look at it though, It just plain sucks, doesn't it?



Watch out Bob most of the lower end Command, Courage and XT series Kohlers are made in China also. Or that's what I found out at the Kohler meeting yesterday.


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## indiansprings (Jan 8, 2010)

What bothers me most is the loss of highly skilled labor in the US, machine shops in our area struggle to find qualified help. DOD estimates it would take six to seven years to ramp up mfg if a war on the scale of WWII would break out due to mfg losses here in the US, we need to protect segments of the mfg industry with enough duties to make the foreign imports not look as good. 
Start putting 20-30 percent duties on imports and protect skilled American jobs, can't do it in every industry,prices would go through the roof. We need to lower taxes on true manufacturing companies so that they can be more competitive in the global market rather than raising them as the current administration wants to.


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## eyolf (Jan 8, 2010)

Be careful what you ask for: we tried that with the Smoot-Hawley tarriffs back in 1930.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 8, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> But would you buy a Stihl made in China?



Not I. But there are a lot of used German ones


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 8, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> If we had boycotted Wal-Mart when they started this crap you wouldn't see such high unemployment numbers we now have, and we wouldn't have all the junk either.



Amen. I however have and still boycott Walmart. Not that there seems to be any difference in the loss of my money in their coffers.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 8, 2010)

Rudolf73 said:


> I was surprised to find out that the MS170 was made in China also. Has anyone else also noticed this ? .



I will check.. I do have one and will look to see what I can find.

I will tell you that it is a total POS.. It has had 3 carburetors installed (under warranty) in the first 4 months of its life. It has not run 1 hour in total yet. 

I will NEVER buy a non-pro saw from Stihl.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 8, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> Stihl has a 240,000 square foot manufacturing plant in China. They make or have plans to make their homeowner hedge trimmers, chainsaws and brushcutters there.



So what happens to the U.S. plant? Seems everything is going that way.. and it is going there because the western consumer is buying the lowest price (crap) they can get.. thereby forcing the manufacturers to make this move.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 8, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> Stihl has a 240,000 square foot manufacturing plant in China. They make or have plans to make their homeowner hedge trimmers, chainsaws and brushcutters there.



Seems not brand new either.. will have to do some additional looking around.

http://www.stihl.com/isapi/default.asp?contenturl=/unternehmen/presse/tagespresse/499.htm


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## splasher (Jan 8, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Amen. I however have and still boycott Walmart. Not that there seems to be any difference in the loss of my money in their coffers.


x2!

I haven't spent a single red cent in that place in over 4 years now. I'm quite proud of that fact, unfortunately they don't seem any worse for wear do to the loss of my revenue.....


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 8, 2010)

For some reason protectionist tactics never work for us. If we put a tariff on imported goods, most likely all we would get is higher priced goods when we go to buy them. Devaluing our money hasn't hurt anybody but us as far as I can tell, except China is complaining about our low interest rates (as am I). Our manufacturing facilities in this area are empty where businesses moved out and seemingly nothing's going to be in there for quite some time except for rats. Once you give your resources away, it's hard to get it back. Look for America to become a poorer nation for quite some time.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> For Once you give your resources away, it's hard to get it back. Look for America to become a poorer nation for quite some time.



The only way to get it back, and it may not work at that would be for the American & Canadian citizens to refuse to buy offshore goods. (in fact Mexican is almost as bad).. Companies are pushing their manufacturing offshore primarily to increase their profits. Same reason jobs are going offshore. They maintain it is to stay competitive, but the prices do not go down in most cases. What competitive means in their eyes is to allow them to not raise prices and make the profit margin they wish to provide their owners or shareholders.

Back to the only way to get back.. that is simply to refuse to buy non-North American made products (now I might also say European products fit in ok as they tend to be on cost structure similar to ours).

This is not government protectionism, but is consumer preference. No law can protect against that.

Now, one would possibly need to do without some things, or may need to do with less as they cost more.

But eventually if the masses held to this, there would be a turn around, guaranteed. However, people are materialistic and want as much as they can get, and prefer quantity vs quality.. so it will never happen. My wife bought me some winter boots for Christmas, she was quite proud of the fact that they are made in Canada. Like that attitude!!


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## Torin (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> So what happens to the U.S. plant? Seems everything is going that way.. and it is going there because the western consumer is buying the lowest price (crap) they can get.. thereby forcing the manufacturers to make this move.



I haven't noticed the price of Timberland boots go down any since they moved to China years ago. I think it is mostly to enhance profit.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 9, 2010)

When the playing field is even then I don''t have a problem buying from a foreign country. ex.

Modernized country
Health care
Democratic society
Well fare/ social programs
competitive wages
workers having rights and holidays

The only two things that makes china attractive for manufacturing

slave labor
a gov't that controls everything, currency, media etc. 

Can you imagine the carnage if the usa acted, fed not state, this way when the usa labor force started to organize. I know they were bad in the beginning, but eventually they came to the aid of labor groups.

all fixed costs are essentially the same regardless of country, the major variable factor are wages,and the associated costs like healthcare, vacations, workmans comp. BUT, the companies only pass on a tiny percentage of the savings to the consumer. Publically traded companies have to do this...privately held companies not really..I thought stihl was a family owned company??

Eventually yes, china will become a complete modernized nation. It will probably take a civil war for it to happen.......and we'll never live long enough to see it happen, like Japan, and Taiwan for example.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

Torin said:


> I haven't noticed the price of Timberland boots go down any since they moved to China years ago. I think it is mostly to enhance profit.



True enough.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> all fixed costs are essentially the same regardless of country,



Not entirely. Real estate costs, electrical costs, taxes, etc all vary from one area to another, quite substantially in some cases I would think.




vw_motorsports said:


> the major variable factor are wages,and the associated costs like healthcare, vacations, workmans comp.



True enough.



vw_motorsports said:


> BUT, the companies only pass on a tiny percentage of the savings to the consumer.



Agreed.



vw_motorsports said:


> Publically traded companies have to do this.



?? Not in Canada they don't? Do you have laws mandating this in the U.S.? Not that I am aware of. Publicly traded companies need to show their financial records/produce annual report to shareholders. Publicly traded companies need to remain competitive and produce a profit (or their shares will go down eventually).. but private ones will also suffer consequences here as well. No mandate for any of them to pass a cent of savings along to consumers.



vw_motorsports said:


> I thought stihl was a family owned company??



It is.

http://www.answers.com/topic/andreas-stihl-ag-co-kg


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 9, 2010)

And guess what? some of these "publicly traded companies" don't pass along the profits to shareholders either! Wonder who gets to keep the money? I'm guessing CEO and board of directors gets the lions share of the profits. Most of these companies think it's really bad to give shareholders more than 3 or 4 percent but they pay their CEO in millions. For What?


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

a. palmer jr. said:


> Most of these companies think it's really bad to give shareholders more than 3 or 4 percent but they pay their CEO in millions. For What?



Well dividend prices have to remain attractive versus interest rates or other investment returns. Keeping large sums (billions of dollars) in reserve can have negative impact on books over time.. which is partly why companies buy out other companies with their surpluses. (that part I can not recall why, but there was a reason explained to me by a couple of CA's) So.. guess giving Board of Directors and Senior employees bonus is good way to get rid of any surpluses.


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## constantine (Jan 9, 2010)

*Stihl as Family Owned Company*

I read through the interesting article on Stihl posted by *TreeClimber57*. Yes, Stihl is a *privately* held company (AG or AtkeinGesesllschaft) but the *people in charge are not family*, but professional managers. Hans Peter Stihl, son of Andreas, the founder, sits on the "Advisory Board."

I would suspect that the professional managers of Stihl are motivated like professional managers anywhere. It is only reasonable to control costs. Seems like they have been in China for a long time (since 1995) and probably have good control of the plant over there. 

If quality suffers, sales will suffer. That's the way the market works.


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## Mastermind (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't know much about past history, but in my life things have changed alot. I have been in the building business for over 30 years, I have carried workmans comp. and have tried to do everything the law asked of as an employer. The comp laws changed at the beginning of this year, now in TN I must pay 27% of my income to the insurance companys that own our law makers. As a result I have closed up shop. It seems to me that no one is trying to keep us small business owners in business, and that is not the american way. I know this is off topic, but I do feel some better. I wonder how to workers comp laws are in China?


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## constantine (Jan 9, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> I don't know much about past history, but in my life things have changed alot. I have been in the building business for over 30 years, I have carried workmans comp. and have tried to do everything the law asked of as an employer. The comp laws changed at the beginning of this year, now in TN I must pay 27% of my income to the insurance companys that own our law makers. As a result I have closed up shop. It seems to me that no one is trying to keep us small business owners in business, and that is not the american way. I know this is off topic, but I do feel some better. I wonder how to workers comp laws are in China?



Randy, I'm very sorry for your situation. I am a small business owner as well and know the BS we all go through as far as taxes, insurance, and regulatory compliance. Also this clown in the White House has done absolutely nothing which helps small business. 

Greg


To answer your question - there are no workers' comp laws in China. If somebody is hurt on the job, they just toss the person out and bring in one of the dozens of people lined up at the door, begging for a job.


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## Javelin (Jan 9, 2010)

And it is getting worse! The new EPA reg's took effect Jan. 1 this year. I have now decided no more porting customer saws after reading about the fines! Not worth it!


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 9, 2010)

Javelin said:


> And it is getting worse! The new EPA reg's took effect Jan. 1 this year. I have now decided no more porting customer saws after reading about the fines! Not worth it!



Did you get the letter from Dolmar?


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## weimedog (Jan 9, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> I don't know much about past history, but in my life things have changed alot. I have been in the building business for over 30 years, I have carried workmans comp. and have tried to do everything the law asked of as an employer. The comp laws changed at the beginning of this year, now in TN I must pay 27% of my income to the insurance companys that own our law makers. As a result I have closed up shop. It seems to me that no one is trying to keep us small business owners in business, and that is not the american way. I know this is off topic, but I do feel some better. I wonder how to workers comp laws are in China?



Go chime in at the political forums..this is exactly the type of thing discussed there...lots of people are beginning to feel the pinch of our voting habits over the last 50 years.


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## Philbert (Jan 9, 2010)

Edge & Engine said:


> Did you get the letter from Dolmar?



Are you able to share what is in '_the letter from Dolmar_' with the rest of us? (Sounds ominous!)

Thanks.

Philbert


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## Edge & Engine (Jan 9, 2010)

Philbert said:


> Are you able to share what is in '_the letter from Dolmar_' with the rest of us? (Sounds ominous!)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Philbert



It was just regarding new EPA regulations.


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## Javelin (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes I got that letter! Not good


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 9, 2010)

It sounds like Dolmar is just passing along a letter they got from gov't.


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## constantine (Jan 9, 2010)

*New EPA Regulations*



Edge & Engine said:


> It was just regarding new EPA regulations.



For the regulation itself, you can check the following:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iew=text;node=40:32.0.1.1.8.1;idno=40;cc=ecfr

The gist of this is that allowable emissions from all hand-held spark ignition engines have been reduced by about 35%. In some cases, that will mean the use of catalytic converters. I am not sure if stratified charge two-stroke engines such as used on the Stihl MS-441 meet the new standard. In any case, the regs are getting tougher. Also, there are time consuming and complicated procedures which must be followed by engine manufacturers to certify their products. One possible interpretation is that anyone modifying an engine from its original form (porting, muffler modding, etc.) could be considered a "manufacturer." Does this apply to the purchaser? I don't know.


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## Meadow Beaver (Jan 9, 2010)

Javelin said:


> None of mine say china on them!



They don't say made in china they have a hello kitty emblem machined on the inside of the flywheel.


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## Jtheo (Jan 9, 2010)

WadePatton said:


> if we would rise up and not _buy_ anything made there...there would be nothing made there.
> 
> communism, funded by u.s.



I have been saying that for years, not that I am all that smart, but it looks like people are just not putting 2 and 2 together when it comes to job loses here and Chinese goods. Communist Chinese goods that is.

Politicians say they want to put Americans back to work. It should be simple. Don't unload any more ships carrying Chinese goods.

Manufacturing would soon crank back up here in the good Ole USA.

This might sound more political than about chain saws, but we are talking about some of our cherished brands going over to China for production, and I don't care if the quality is the same. I still don't want anything built there.


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## Jtheo (Jan 9, 2010)

mastermind7864 said:


> I don't know much about past history, but in my life things have changed alot. I have been in the building business for over 30 years, I have carried workmans comp. and have tried to do everything the law asked of as an employer. The comp laws changed at the beginning of this year, now in TN I must pay 27% of my income to the insurance companys that own our law makers. As a result I have closed up shop. It seems to me that no one is trying to keep us small business owners in business, and that is not the american way. I know this is off topic, but I do feel some better. I wonder how to workers comp laws are in China?[/QUOTE
> 
> I know where you are coming from on this. I had a small business that went under.
> IMHO the big banks, huge American corporations and a few ultra wealthy
> ...


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## indiansprings (Jan 9, 2010)

Dolmar's just trying to build a saw that the AVERAGE consumer will pay for.
Based on the many trips I have made to China I would bet the Chinese Dolmar's are built to the same specifications as the German ones.
I would bet there are Germans living on site and the cnc machinery is prolly the same German cnc mills and lathes they use in the German factories.
Instead of paying 20.00 plus an hour, with all the european benefits, four day work weeks, month long vacations and all the taxes associated with european mfg, they are prolly paying 1.00 and hour, no retirement, one day off a month and this isn't just China folks, almost 2/3 of the worlds labor force operates this way. It's sad, I don't like it. Tell you elected officials to get off small business, cut the taxes and benefits they have to pay so they'll be competitive.
In 15 years the labor market will shift toward Africa and places like Afghanistan and Iraq, China has already raised taxes on mfg to support the growing demand for infrastructure. We shouldn't hold Dolmar to a higher standard than any other company, are you going to stop driving a Dodge diesel because Cummins is making parts in China. It's all companies.


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## Philbert (Jan 9, 2010)

constantine said:


> For the regulation itself, you can check the following



Thanks for the link.

I read through it quickly and attached a summary of some key (my opinion) points in MS Word (please see attachment below).

Basically, it looks like if you modify an engine for sale to the public, you become the 'manufacturer' who needs to certify compliance with the emission standards. Says it also applies to anyone who operates one of these engines, but seems to focus more on those who make and sell them.

A few interesting, potential exemptions for those with good lawyers;
- used equipment that is imported for personal use (once every 5 years);
- emergency rescue equipment (might have to cut Uncle Henry out of that creek like in "Sometimes a Great Notion");
- equipment used in competition only (but, hey, capitalism means that we all work in a competitive society, right?);
- equipment that is beyond it's useful life (defined and measured from the date of original purchase).

So it is not clear what happens if an individual mods his/her own equipment, but clearly a business that that performed this service to the public would have a challenge to show that the equipment still met the EPA specs.

Philbert


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## eyolf (Jan 9, 2010)

Indiansprings...spot on.

But what does one say to the American (or probably western European) worker who wants to hold on to his retirement, benefits, and nice paycheck? Lots of people I hear crowing about the "American Way", as if they believe that we have the birthright to easy living.

Most of our ancestors came here for the opportunity to have it a little better than where they came from; they taught that to their kids, too. But a sizeable number of us now believe we are somehow owed a good living, not just freedom. And we're losing both.

I'm glad Weimedog mentioned something about our voting habits over the last 50 years. Its too easy to blame Obama, or the Dems, or the Repub's. But who's been NOT WATCHING? We consider it pretty good when 1/3 of us show up at the polls; most of us probably live in villages or townships that have a hard time finding quality people willing to be local leaders.

Chainsaws from China? Not as big a problem as others, maybe!


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## Stihl Crazy (Jan 9, 2010)

Jtheo said:


> Politicians say they want to put Americans back to work. It should be simple. Don't unload any more ships carrying Chinese goods.
> 
> Manufacturing would soon crank back up here in the good Ole USA.



Won't happen China holds the US "purse strings" now. They have been backing the huge US deficits for years. Now they are getting paid back.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

Jtheo said:


> Politicians say they want to put Americans back to work. It should be simple. Don't unload any more ships carrying Chinese goods.



Problem is it is not quite that simple, unless you want to start a war.

The only way it will work, and not an idea I fully support or am in favor of, would be a heavy carbon tax. Get the European nations, Canada and U.S. to agree.. maybe Australia and New Zealand, etc as well.

If done correctly then the countries would ALL apply a carbon tax based upon a formula - which would calculate how much was was placed into environment in the goods supplied. 

a) the energy supply in China is all coal burning plants
b) the energy in getting the goods to North America or Europe is significant add to the mix..

Surely this would increase the cost of the goods to at least make at home products attractive.. in some cases would make at home products less expensive I would think.

Could also leverage a tax of some sort based upon how well the workers are treated (something like the fair trade effort for coffee.. although that is not a tax).. it would apply a tax/penalty based upon a formula where workers were not treated properly or as per formula.. maybe would be items such as time off with pay, sick leave, health benefits.. whatever.

Between the two, this would if nothing else, level the playing field.


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## constantine (Jan 9, 2010)

Philbert said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I read through it quickly and attached a summary of some key (my opinion) points in MS Word (please see attachment below).
> 
> ...



Thanks for the summary. I guess that this means that ventilation saws used by fire departments would be exempt. What about saws which are used by personnel who fight forest fires? Do we have to sign a certification that our saws are "For Emergency Use Only?" Could be any saw, I suppose.

Maybe we can label our whiskey bottles "For Medicinal Use Only." :greenchainsaw:


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## carmelo (Jan 9, 2010)

YOU people complain how the government does not help small business. and if you where not taxed or regulated you would be able to compete with the chinese . woould it not make sense to also pay your workers 10 cents an hour and not give them any benefits. this would level the playing field .just an observation.


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Problem is it is not quite that simple, unless you want to start a war.
> 
> The only way it will work, and not an idea I fully support or am in favor of, would be a heavy carbon tax. Get the European nations, Canada and U.S. to agree.. maybe Australia and New Zealand, etc as well.
> 
> ...



that's some smart thinking there, great ideas.....you should run for office.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

vw_motorsports said:


> that's some smart thinking there, great ideas.....you should run for office.



Nah.. there are tough sides to this.

a) a lot of people would not favor it to begin with so would not get elected

But if you did..
b) a lot of people with money would get upset as they have significant investments offshore which this would mess with
c) a lot of people without money would get upset as their low cost imports would become expensive.

Bottom line, if you did get elected you would soon get shot.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 9, 2010)

carmelo said:


> YOU people complain how the government does not help small business. and if you where not taxed or regulated you would be able to compete with the chinese . woould it not make sense to also pay your workers 10 cents an hour and not give them any benefits. this would level the playing field .just an observation.



True and a very possible consequence.

However, there is over regulation and over taxation.. Need to find a balance.

Now we can not control the other countries of the world, but we can level playing field by applying across the board taxes such as carbon tax mentioned.. this is non-discriminatory so would not target single countries and would be difficult to have them make that statement.. however it would clearly center out countries who are abusing their privileges on this planet. 

Now as mentioned above, some of the foreign countries own significant pieces of foreign debt, and may strongarm any politician who tries to implement something like this.


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## Philbert (Jan 9, 2010)

constantine said:


> I guess that this means that ventilation saws used by fire departments would be exempt. What about saws which are used by personnel who fight forest fires?



_(1) You must determine annually that no engines certified to current emission standards are available to power the equipment safely and practically. . .

(2) You may not use exempted engines for the following equipment used to provide remote power to a rescue tool: generators, alternators, compressors, or pumps.

(3) . . . You must use available engines meeting the most stringent standards feasible.

(b) For the purposes of this section, “emergency rescue situations” means firefighting or other situations in which a person is retrieved from imminent danger._


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## Jtheo (Jan 9, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Problem is it is not quite that simple, unless you want to start a war.
> 
> The only way it will work, and not an idea I fully support or am in favor of, would be a heavy carbon tax. Get the European nations, Canada and U.S. to agree.. maybe Australia and New Zealand, etc as well.
> 
> ...



Oh I know it's not that simple. I just said that to point out where it all started. Chinese goods brought in and American dollars going out, and then American jobs lost, and the Chinese buying weapons with money gained from their cheap goods sold here.

It just went on and on and on for years.

There were articles 30 years ago that said this should be stopped.

Where were our elected leaders? head in the clouds? corrupt? stupid?
Who knows?
Were was the majority of the American public? Watching American Idol I guess. 
Now I have said too much.


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## Jtheo (Jan 9, 2010)

Stihl Crazy said:


> Won't happen China holds the US "purse strings" now. They have been backing the huge US deficits for years. Now they are getting paid back.



I know it's not that simple. I wish it were. The U S Government has let us down with the huge deficits, and no common sense shown. 

It seems that Washington has been out of touch with reality for a long time.

It seems they still are.

Truth is I wish I had some good answers. Truth is, I don't.


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## Stihl Crazy (Jan 9, 2010)

Jtheo said:


> I know it's not that simple. I wish it were. The U S Government has let us down with the huge deficits, and no common sense shown.
> 
> It seems that Washington has been out of touch with reality for a long time.
> 
> ...



I still see the USA as the strongest military power going and in an all out war she will still win. But I feel that sadly she can be brought to here knees in an economic war. Foreign powers own her debt. Foreign powers control her oil supply and sadist of all foreign powers are taking up office in her Government. I pray for your country daily as you are my country's only hope.


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## Jtheo (Jan 9, 2010)

Stihl Crazy said:


> I still see the USA as the strongest military power going and in an all out war she will still win. But I feel that sadly she can be brought to here knees in an economic war. Foreign powers own her debt. Foreign powers control her oil supply and sadist of all foreign powers are taking up office in her Government. I pray for your country daily as you are my country's only hope.



You have a good grasp of the situation as I see it. Thank you for your prayers. They are surely needed.


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## pro94lt (Jan 9, 2010)

Everything I have ever bought that came from china has let me down and pissed me off because it just does not work the way it should. Look at all the old sewing machines from 50 years ago that never need repairs and are still being used, now you wouldn't think of repairing a sewing machine. I think thats where we'll be with saws in a couple of years if their made in RED China. Everybody please refer to them as Red china not china. They are Red.


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 9, 2010)

I've tried to tell that to people for quite a while now...Were we not supposed to be against communism? Now we cut deals with them, at the expense of our tax paying public, to take our jobs and give them to communist china and russia. I understand the companies can make more profit, but at what cost? We are making our country weaker and the communist countries stronger.


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## constantine (Jan 10, 2010)

Stihl Crazy said:


> I still see the USA as the strongest military power going and in an all out war she will still win. But I feel that sadly she can be brought to here knees in an economic war. Foreign powers own her debt. Foreign powers control her oil supply and sadist of all foreign powers are taking up office in her Government. I pray for your country daily as you are my country's only hope.



Thanks, Stihl Crazy, I pray for my country as well. You are right that the USA is the only military super-power on the planet. In a wartime situation, domestic sources of oil and gas would be sufficient, and we would turn to making gasoline from coal the way the Germans did in WWII. Of course, there would be rationing, etc., at home. Most of the people alive today have no concept of what our fathers and grandfathers lived through. 

There are large differences between the USA of today and the USA our fathers and grandfathers fought to defend. Our manufacturing base is not what it used to be. The steel is made in Korea, China, and Japan. We have "offshored" the manufacturing of many essential products, mechanical, electronic, and the like. To fight a war, you need an industrial base. In my hometown there was a shipyard that turned out a ship a week during WWII. The yard is gone now. Chrysler used to make tanks in Detroit. The list goes on. 

Second, and most tragic, our leadership has no will. Obama (the greatest fraud ever to be perpetrated on the American people) is a Progressive in the mold of Woodrow Wilson. He believes in "World Government" and other nonsense. He has no balls, and the Islamic terrorists all over the world know it. Traditionally, Americans have looked to their President for leadership. All this joker wants to give us is free health care for illegal aliens paid for by anybody who works for a living. 

Be assured that there is a reaction building. We will handle this in the American Way - at the ballot box. In 2010, I predict that the Democrats will lose their majorities on both houses of Congress. Public opinion on Obama will hit the dumper when everybody starts paying all the new taxes and we finally wake up. By 2012, Obama will be a bad memory. Then, we'll have to work hard to rebuild our country and repair all the damage he and his thugs are doing today. But we WILL get it done.


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## eyolf (Jan 10, 2010)

I wish I had your confidence, Contantine. WE get excited when 1/3 of the populace shows up at election time. If we get rid of a chunk of the current crop of politicians, how do we know their replacements will become effective?

Getting elected today means making promises, usually promises to raid someone else's larder. Take, for example the deal with the Nebraska senator for his vote recently.

I'm willing to make the sacrifices, because, for me they won't be all that bad. The farm is paid for, so if things get real bad, my expenses can be pretty low. I don't mind "living close to home", as my grandma used to say, a term she used for doing for yourselves. But how many people elsehwere could do that?

Just take food production: most of us are used to dirt cheap groceries available anywhere, at any time. What if it costs twice or 3 times as much and people have to go back to living like the grandparents did? WE got out some Christmas ornaments this year that were my Grandmother's, wrapped in newspapers from the 1960's. There was an ad from the local grocery/variety store; we compared prices with now, using wages my dad earned as a 30-year-old, to wages men that age earn now. People then worked about an average of 1.6 times as long to earn their bread. Plus, Mom's didn't all work, so many people ate simply and cheaply. In rural areas, most people had gardens, even kept a pig or cow and some chickens. By 1975, that lifestyle was reserved for "nutcases" that wore clothes from the Salvation Army outlet and read Mother Earth News.

I work outside the farm (to support it, as my wife laments, LOL), and know people that would be totally screwed if they had no choice but to try to live like their grandparents. You can't have a garden, raise a pig and a few chickens in an apartment! These poeple are worried, and will vote for whoever promises them the biggest share of someone else's goodies.

Suppose Obama had said, "Listen, folks...we got problems to solve and it's gonna be hard, but we better get to it!" as an election slogan?


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## fiasco (Jan 10, 2010)

*Aaarghhh.*

In a fit of frustration at my Jonsered dealer taking forever to fix my 2159, I went out and bought a Dolmar 510 as a backup saw this summer (yeah, yeah, 5100S or go home, this is the backup saw, I wanted a tractor, not a Ferrari). This thread prompted me to go downstairs and look at the tag. 

Made in China.

The saw runs great, pull twice full choke cold and it pops, pull once in run and it goes. Cuts great, handles easy. I have no qualms with the build quality. But had I known it was China-made, I would have either ponied up the extra $90 for the 5100S or gone with a Stihl MS 270 or something else (I'm kind of sour on Jonsered/Husqvarna because of my lemon saw).

I do make an effort to avoid Made in China and Big Box Mart. And don't get me started on politicians. Neither of the two major US parties would take me (unless I was a billionaire).


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 10, 2010)

The saw is probably going to be ok. They're made to specifications and all, and if Dolmar is there supervising the manufacture it's probably made about as good as their other saws. I just didn't like the idea of U.S. companies moving to China and charging about as much for their products as the ones made here. Another thing I don't like is counterfeiting our products, putting a little different name on it and selling it for about 3/4 of what ours sell for. Makes me want to keep my old Homelite.


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## SawTroll (Jan 11, 2010)

spike60 said:


> This thread, of all that I've read since I've joined is at the top of the depressing list. Can't pick on Dolmar though, as the inevitable tide seemingly can't be stopped. Why? Because the uncomfortable truth is that the American consumer will NOT support the American, (or European), worker if it means pulling an extra dollar out of his own moth infested wallet.
> 
> I have tried to take a higher road in my own store, but sometimes I feel like the guys at the Alamo must have felt. For instance, we have 3 manufactureres from which we can buy snow throwers; Ariens, Husky, and Cub Cadet. We told Cub, that since they went and sourced an engine from China, that we would not order or sell their blowers at all. Decided to stick with Ariens and Husky which were still, for the most part using Briggs motors. But even both of those companies are using LCT engines on their lower price point units. Like I said, depressing. VERY depressing. Almost as depressing as that quasi-muslim marxist freak we have in the White House.
> 
> Again, even though I'm no longer dealer, I find myself defending Dolmar here. It's not just them; they're all doing it to one degree or another. No matter how you look at it though, It just plain sucks, doesn't it?



You hit the nail squarely, as usual! :yourock:



For those that don't know, Spike used to be a Dolmar distributer, before he became a Husky/Jred dealer.


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## 166 (Jan 19, 2010)

Update

*Talked to my Dolmar distributor today about this subject. Looks like the PS-460 & PS-510 are Assembled in a Makita Tool factory in China with the same exact componets that were used in the saws assembled in Hamburg Germany. So it looks like they will still use the same Mahle pistons & cylinders and not going to a cheaper grade like some other manufactures.

Looks like we are picking up a load of saws while we're at a Dolmar meeting on wednesday. I'm ordering some 460's & 510's so i'll get a chance to look them over to see if there is any difference.

Steve*


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 19, 2010)

It's good to hear the quality will still be there (maybe). The problem I would have if I were as a dealer is trying to explain all this to a costumer, because when I see made in China, I see made in China. I don't see this as being a good thing for Dolmar or Dolmar dealers. If I was a dealer I'd be quite upset at Dolmar.


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## dingeryote (Jan 19, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> It's good to hear the quality will still be there (maybe). The problem I would have if I were as a dealer is trying to explain all this to a costumer, because when I see made in China, I see made in China. I don't see this as being a good thing for Dolmar or Dolmar dealers. If I was a dealer I'd be quite upset at Dolmar.



I know of several other companies that have tried the same thing in the past.
It didn't work well for them, as the assembly folks are also QC no matter how some fat terd in a suit wishes to look at them.

Assembling some German parts to a standard, for two riceballs a day without any ownership or pride in the final product never ends up as a smart thing to do. Just ask anybody that has purchased German optics assembled in China.

It also allows for a break in the QC communications loop with vendors, and breaks the ties of mutual support to a large degree. Lot checks are made before shipping to assembly, and what normally would get caught on the line, goes through.

Not good normally.

I wish Dolmar luck.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## a. palmer jr. (Jan 19, 2010)

I agree...if you want the highest quality keep it away from China! They'll figure out some way to cheapen the product, slip in parts that are rejects or whatever. Besides that, consumer perceptions aren't great with that big "Made in China" label on it. If it were my company and I wasn't about to go out of business I'd keep it in the original factory, why not?


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## vw_motorsports (Jan 19, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> I know of several other companies that have tried the same thing in the past.
> It didn't work well for them, as the assembly folks are also QC no matter how some fat terd in a suit wishes to look at them.
> 
> Assembling some German parts to a standard, for two riceballs a day without any ownership or pride in the final product never ends up as a smart thing to do. Just ask anybody that has purchased German optics assembled in China.
> ...



EXACTLY! to me that's the biggest problem...the assembly worker could care less about the product. If a cylinder/piston has a defect the chances of the worker picking it up and taking it out of production is slim to none because that would slow down production.


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## constantine (Jan 20, 2010)

166 said:


> Update
> 
> *Talked to my Dolmar distributor today about this subject. Looks like the PS-460 & PS-510 are Assembled in a Makita Tool factory in China with the same exact componets that were used in the saws assembled in Hamburg Germany. So it looks like they will still use the same Mahle pistons & cylinders and not going to a cheaper grade like some other manufactures.
> 
> ...



I agree what the other guys are saying about Chinese assembly, but I'm more interested in what you see when you pick up your load of saws. Please let us know. 

Even the guys in the suits, if they are any kind of businessmen at all, know that your reputation can take years to build, but can be destroyed overnight if you cut too many corners and let substandard product through. Things are very tough and people are doing anything they can to save money. 

Yesterday I went looking for some plan files and a safe for my office (used, of course). The dealer I had done business with for years had really hunkered down. Only the owner was there at his 20,000 sq ft. store. Most of the lights were off, and the heat was off. He is doing what he has to do to survive. 

I got a good deal on some used stuff. I feel bad because I didn't buy MORE stuff from him, because he's toughing it out, just as all of us are. Assembling in China is a way to save money, but it's risky as hell. I hope the executives at Dolmar are watching carefully, but for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and wait for a report.


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## MathuisMaximus (Apr 20, 2010)

To me it seems to be a lot more inefficient to ship products across an ocean from a foreign country when it can be made here and be shipped a lot smaller distance and save a great deal of fuel in the process.


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## mountainlake (Apr 20, 2010)

How many on here would be willing to pay $350 for a made in Germany vs $300 for a made in China saw. I would. Steve


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## SawTroll (Apr 20, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> How many on here would be willing to pay $350 for a made in Germany vs $300 for a made in China saw. I would. Steve



Sure I would, no doubt!


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## speedytt (Apr 20, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> How many on here would be willing to pay $350 for a made in Germany vs $300 for a made in China saw. I would. Steve



I would!


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## Oldsawnut (Apr 20, 2010)

> How many on here would be willing to pay $350 for a made in Germany vs $300 for a made in China saw. I would. Steve



I would pay the 350 any day of the week.......... But what if it was 200 instead of 350..... Hmmmm


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## gallegosmike (Apr 20, 2010)

MathuisMaximus said:


> To me it seems to be a lot more inefficient to ship products across an ocean from a foreign country when it can be made here and be shipped a lot smaller distance and save a great deal of fuel in the process.



How many saws can you stuff into a conex box? Thousands I bet! Shipping to the west coast of the US vs the east coast from germany is going to be about the same. I do not like idea of any saws being built in RED china, but what can we do? Stop buying their products? 

Upper management for the most part only understands the bottom line. For a saw that is a low profit margin item. They will do what ever it takes to make more profit out of it. Husky(kills me to say it) and stihl (Haaa!!!) are both starting to build *** in china. Give it time and all the manufactures will be building all their low to mid range *** in china. Saving the high end pro stuff for sweden for husky and va. for stihl. 

The average knuckle dragging consumer does not care where some thing is made. They only care how much it costs them. It is what is... :monkey:


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## mike lipke (Apr 20, 2010)

My PS430 was made in Germany.


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## stihl_ (Jun 11, 2010)

*Dolmar PS-9010 Serial Number Location*

HI, Looking at buying a Dolmar PS-9010 saw, could anyone tell me where the serial number is and how to work out when the saw was manufactured from the serial number. There is a sticker on the saw near the rear handle that says " Dolmar PS 9010, 0511037590, 024.100202 Typ 024. Thanks


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## a. palmer jr. (Jun 11, 2010)

gallegosmike said:


> How many saws can you stuff into a conex box? Thousands I bet! Shipping to the west coast of the US vs the east coast from germany is going to be about the same. I do not like idea of any saws being built in RED china, but what can we do? Stop buying their products?
> 
> Upper management for the most part only understands the bottom line. For a saw that is a low profit margin item. They will do what ever it takes to make more profit out of it. Husky(kills me to say it) and stihl (Haaa!!!) are both starting to build *** in china. Give it time and all the manufactures will be building all their low to mid range *** in china. Saving the high end pro stuff for sweden for husky and va. for stihl.
> 
> The average knuckle dragging consumer does not care where some thing is made. They only care how much it costs them. It is what is... :monkey:



Once people started buying things from China it was too late. If, when they first brought over that RED Chinese stuff people refused to buy it then the companies would realize that it was a bad idea and would quit making their stuff there. But the companies did what they had to to sucker us in...they sold it dirt cheap compared to USA items. Once they got the suckers buying and American companies went out of business or to China, they raised the price. Now they can do anything they want to us because they have a monopoly. Monopolies used to be against the law in the US..apparently doesn't apply to Chinese companies.
By the way, I used to work for a company that said they would import only their low end stuff...that only lasted for awhile. Now they're importing their high end items also and I'm out of a job as of April 1, 1998.


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## tdi-rick (Jun 11, 2010)

stihl_ said:


> HI, Looking at buying a Dolmar PS-9010 saw, could anyone tell me where the serial number is and how to work out when the saw was manufactured from the serial number. There is a sticker on the saw near the rear handle that says " Dolmar PS 9010, 0511037590, 024.100202 Typ 024. Thanks



Pretty sure *05*11037590 is the year of manufacture, and 05*11*037590 is the month and the rest is the saws actual serial #.

At least that's how it is on my 7901.
There is also another sticker on the bottom of the crankcase that will have the full year, in your case 2005, then the serial # if it works the same as the 64/73/7900's.


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## tallguys (Jul 27, 2011)

"Talked to my Dolmar distributor today about this subject. Looks like the PS-460 & PS-510 are Assembled in a Makita Tool factory in China with the same exact componets that were used in the saws assembled in Hamburg Germany. So it looks like they will still use the same Mahle pistons & cylinders and not going to a cheaper grade like some other manufactures.

Looks like we are picking up a load of saws while we're at a Dolmar meeting on wednesday. I'm ordering some 460's & 510's so i'll get a chance to look them over to see if there is any difference." - Steve 


So, what was the final verdict on the PS-510s and PS-460s being assembled in China? I'm sure that I can't be the only one who is curious as to how this all turned out.


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## 166 (Jul 28, 2011)

tallguys said:


> "Talked to my Dolmar distributor today about this subject. Looks like the PS-460 & PS-510 are Assembled in a Makita Tool factory in China with the same exact componets that were used in the saws assembled in Hamburg Germany. So it looks like they will still use the same Mahle pistons & cylinders and not going to a cheaper grade like some other manufactures.
> 
> Looks like we are picking up a load of saws while we're at a Dolmar meeting on wednesday. I'm ordering some 460's & 510's so i'll get a chance to look them over to see if there is any difference." - Steve
> 
> ...


 
Yes the current PS-460 & PS-510 are assembled in a Makita plant in china with the same exact parts that would be if assembled in Germany. If you remove the serial number tags on a german assembled & china assembled PS-510 you would never be able to tell the difference.

The newest PS-510's have the easy start system on them along with a 13,800 coil vs the 13,500 coil on the older saws. They have stopped importing the PS-460 and I don't believe there are any of those with the easy start in the US/Canada.

Steve


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## steve316 (Jul 28, 2011)

*made in china*

If Dolmar or any other company has parts made in China they will not manufacture the part with-out the specks to the whole saw. Also they will cut out any warehouse and go to distrubertor if possble cut out as many as possible, as has happen to many busness already. This is why tool& die other manufacturing bussness has such a high rate of going under.


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## tallguys (Oct 4, 2011)

*510 Germany made again*

Yessirree, I saw it with my own eyes just today. My dealer had a PS-510 in stock with a serial # beginning 1003, or March last year that right on the sticker said Made in Germany. :biggrin: An older PS-460 from 09 had the China serial # sticker. Just thought it was worthwhile to update AS members with this as there seemed to be some here questioning Dolmar's quality what with the China assembly.


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