# Trail Maintenance How-To



## MtnHermit (Aug 6, 2011)

This photo is typical of a trail maintenance project I want to do. I've two main concerns, chainsaw binding and a log rolling on me and I'm seeking "been there, done that" practical advice. Where should I cut? Please use uphill/downhill and top/bottom so that I'll understand your directions. There's no snow, just this photo shows the basic tree/trail situation.







To date, all my chainsaw experience has been blocking dead-fall for firewood. That involves a tree lying on flat ground, 50-odd feet from my truck with 2 chainsaws and various tools to solve any problem. This project is more than a mile from the truck, lots of elevation gain and a weak back, so I won't be bringing the kitchen sink.

Thanks for any advice.


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## 2dogs (Aug 6, 2011)

You may want to post this in the home owner help thread too. 

To start bring your saw and fuel along with an extra chain. Also bring a 3-5 lb axe and a couple of 8 and ten inch wedges. A 5' long peavey can be a big help too if you have a cutting partner. Don't forget a first aid kit that includes an Isreali dressing or a bloodstopper.

Start near the top of the blowdown and piece it out. I am assuming you are not firewooding so just cut the tree into pieces you can make secure so they won't roll down the hill on top of you. Try to carefully read the bind and cut from the other side. If you are not sure step back and take a moment to run through things in your head. Cut small pieces here, maybe only a foot at a time till you are clear on what you are doing. Think about each cut you have just made and try to remember the forces you felt on the saw. Report back as you can and we will try to help you out. Just remember, don't believe everything you see on the internet. Caveat emptor.

Oops... always take a buddy and your cell phone and file a "flight plan".


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## MtnHermit (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks 2dogs for the reply. 



2dogs said:


> bring a 3-5 lb axe and a couple of 8 and ten inch wedges. A 5' long peavey can be a big help too if you have a cutting partner. Don't forget a first aid kit that includes an Isreali dressing or a bloodstopper.


Most of this falls into the kitchen sink category. Besides, don't even know what a peavey is.



> Start near the top of the blowdown and piece it out. I am assuming you are not firewooding so just cut the tree into pieces you can make secure so they won't roll down the hill on top of you. Try to carefully read the bind and cut from the other side. If you are not sure step back and take a moment to run through things in your head. Cut small pieces here, maybe only a foot at a time till you are clear on what you are doing. Think about each cut you have just made and try to remember the forces you felt on the saw. Report back as you can and we will try to help you out.


Correct, no firewood here. This project is 30 miles from home and I have a lifetime of dead fall within 3-miles.

If I understand, you suggest I climb the hillside to the top of the tree and work all the way down in small blocks? Are you concerned that the tree would slide on the steep slope if I started at the obvious daylight gap? My slope isn't that steep so sliding is impossible, rolling however is a concern. Also, do have a large span, so it'll POP.

As to stopping and thinking, you bet!!! Every cut will be proceeded by saw off, walk around and examine the slope and judging gravity. Gravity always wins.

This project is a month away, so lots of time to adsorb good ideas.



> Oops... always take a buddy and your cell phone and file a "flight plan".


Cells rarely work in the mountains.

Thanks


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## zopi (Aug 6, 2011)

Take in a hank or two of decent rope too...if a piece appears to want to move, secure it with the line...then section out to control the movement...hope that makes sense...

You can also cut blocks and pes in the woods to shore it up...


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## madhatte (Aug 6, 2011)

A good portion of the cutting I've done has been in jackstrawed blowdown, and the few rules I have found that I try very hard to never violate are these:

1) be uphill of where you expect the log to roll when it comes loose
2) work from less potential energy to more whenever possible -- that is, small end to large -- relieving tension as you go
3) too much bar is better than not enough
4) relieving cuts to prevent slabbing will save you with horizontal wood just as much as vertical
5) never get complacent; gravity never rests
6) be extra-careful in wood that is compromised in any way

EDIT: also, agreed on the peavey. A little leverage can make all the difference.


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## Gologit (Aug 6, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> Besides, don't even know what a peavey is.


 
Find out. If you're going to be doing trail clearing you'll get a lot of use out a peavey.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 6, 2011)

madhatte said:


> A good portion of the cutting I've done has been in jackstrawed blowdown, and the few rules I have found that I try very hard to never violate are these:
> 
> 1) be uphill of where you expect the log to roll when it comes loose


Makes sense, will do.



> 2) work from less potential energy to more whenever possible -- that is, small end to large -- relieving tension as you go


What do you mean by "relieving tension as you go"




> 4) relieving cuts to prevent slabbing will save you with horizontal wood just as much as vertical


Please expand/explain. Perhaps an example.



> 5) never get complacent; gravity never rests


First law!!!



> 6) be extra-careful in wood that is compromised in any way


Like splits? I've noticed in blocking dead fall, the saw behaves very erratic in areas where the log is fractured.



> EDIT: also, agreed on the peavey. A little leverage can make all the difference


Still don't know what a peavy is, so I don't own one. Not planning to buy anything with the possible exception of chaps.

Thanks for the advice.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 6, 2011)

zopi said:


> You can also cut blocks and pes in the woods to shore it up...


Yes, Make a "tool" in the woods.

Thanks


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## Gologit (Aug 6, 2011)

This is a peavey. It's not the best use of one I've ever seen. The guy using it is naturally clumsy but you'll get the general idea. They're a back saver.




[video=youtube;-XxnbNXh4q8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XxnbNXh4q8[/video]


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

Yep that talky showed a peavey in action. That was a colorized movie made before the invention of the steam locomotive but the user showed dern good form. The peavey is a log roller with a pointed end and a 5' long handle though that one was probably measured in cubits. The LogRite/Stihl brand is a good one if you want an aluminum handle. Avoid the Chinese copy that is painted the exact blue color of LogRite. Peavey and Dixie make wood handle models, there may be others.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 7, 2011)

Is everyone on this forum a Gear Whore?

I have no intention of purchasing a peavey and if I owned a peavey I wouldn't carry it up the trail, too heavy too big.

I've asked direct questions to replies, no answers. I don't need more gear, I need cutting knowledge. Simple Do's and Don'ts.


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## John Ellison (Aug 7, 2011)

Well, at a minimum you should take a bar wrench and a saw file because you will get hung up and you will get your saw in the dirt. Wedges, an axe and a peavey would help you a lot there, especially if you are without much experience. Leaving your saw hung up in a log is called the anti-theft position, but a thief with a bar wrench might come along.


Unrelated picture, but I just realized old pics from way back posts were still stored on AS and I had to see if they still worked. Pic is not me but a friend on POW IS AK>


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> Is everyone on this forum a Gear Whore?
> 
> I have no intention of purchasing a peavey and if I owned a peavey I wouldn't carry it up the trail, too heavy too big.
> 
> I've asked direct questions to replies, no answers. I don't need more gear, I need cutting knowledge. Simple Do's and Don'ts.


 
Gear Whore? No, not really. A lot of the answers to your questions came from guys who make their living in the woods. They know better than to carry anything they don't really need. But they usually know what works the best for any given situation. You'd do well to listen.

I understand your frustration. You're seeking information that will help you overcome your lack of knowledge. It sounds like you need a _lot_ of information. It also sounds like your're falling into the trap of wanting absolute guarantees that "if I do _this_, the tree will do _that._ I wish it worked that way. My job would sure be easier if it did.

It's hard to tell from your picture but if all you need to do is cut a three foot gap through that windfall it shouldn't be too hard. An experienced cutter would have it done in about three minutes. You're quite obviously not experienced so take it easy and slow. If there's a lot of tension make a few small cuts, relieving cuts they're called, from underneath and see what the tree does. Stand well back while you're cutting. When you've cut a few relief cuts you should be able to tell where the most pressure is. When you decide where your final cut will be start your first cut on the far side of the log and only cut in a few inches. Start your main cut from the bottom until you're at least 3/4 of the way through the log. Then, using the front few inches of the bar start down from the top. If the kerf wants to close up on your bar pull out and come in from the bottom again. Be cautious for the log to swing at you when it finally lets go and watch for the uphill log to move down at you. This can happen in an eye blink.
If you have time and the ground permits it starting from the top and cutting three or four foot sections would probably work, too.

Caveat...none of this is absolutely guaranteed to work. One of the things experience has taught us is that every tree is different and you have to be able to change your plan instantly when things go awry. A lot of wood cutting is correcting small mistakes as they happen and not letting them become disasters because of your inexperience or ignorance. 

And, if you would, lose the Gear Whore mentality. Use a peavey or don't...it really doesn't matter to me. You asked for advice and you got it. If you don't like the advice, don't take it. Your choice entirely.

But, if you can, have somebody video your attempt at cutting and moving that windfall. We all enjoy entertaining videos.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> Is everyone on this forum a Gear Whore?
> 
> I have no intention of purchasing a peavey and if I owned a peavey I wouldn't carry it up the trail, too heavy too big.
> 
> I've asked direct questions to replies, no answers. I don't need more gear, I need cutting knowledge. Simple Do's and Don'ts.


 
You have a bad attitude and you want something for nothing. You don't like the advice so you insult the person who posted. I'm done with you. Now go away.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

2dogs said:


> You have a bad attitude and you want something for nothing. You don't like the advice so you insult the person who posted. I'm done with you. Now go away.


 
That's basically what I said. But I said it nicer. Pffffft.


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## 2dogs (Aug 7, 2011)

Gologit said:


> That's basically what I said. But I said it nicer. Pffffft.


 
Yeah, I'm not much for diplomacy.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Yeah, I'm not much for diplomacy.


 
Oh well, when you offer advice and it's rejected and belittled it's hard to be diplomatic.

Gotta go...I need to sharpen the point on my peavey. It's a heavy sucker so I just drag it everywhere.


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## John Ellison (Aug 7, 2011)

Hahaha You gotta get with it Bob. I carry my peavey on a sling on my back along with my trailbike. Then I can ride out when my saw gets hungup.


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## JRepairsK70e (Aug 7, 2011)

i think most of us here would use this trail project as an excuse to buy even more saws and peaveys ,signed" prepared gear whore" lol


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> Hahaha You gotta get with it Bob. I carry my peavey on a sling on my back along with my trailbike. Then I can ride out when my saw gets hungup.


 
Trailbike? You're getting pretty fancy there. Got to admit though, there are times, especially at the end of the day when the pack out is up hill, that I wish I had a trail bike.


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## madhatte (Aug 7, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> What do you mean by "relieving tension as you go"



If you look down the length of a blown-down tree, you will often see that it has wedged itself between several other trees on its way down. This means that in addition to any top or bottom bind it may have as a result of its lay, it will have often multiple side binds, as well. If you just take a big whack out of the log where you want the hole for the trail to be, it can be nearly impossible to judge where the log will go when it has binds on several axes at once. It's best, then, to cut the side binds free one by one, working from small end to big end, so that when you cut the trail clear, the log doesn't bite you. I missed one bind once and the log swung on me. It pushed me down firmly but gently, like a stern teacher. I was uninjured, but I learned the lesson. 



MtnHermit said:


> Please expand/explain. Perhaps an example.



If you have a heavy top or bottom bind (such as a log hanging out over empty space, or hung between berms on opposite sides of a road) and you just cut from the side opposite the bind, the tension will often cause the wood on the far site to separate prematurely. It's hard to judge where the log will end up when this happens. Far better to have relieving cuts in there first so it breaks cleanly and predictably.



MtnHermit said:


> Like splits? I've noticed in blocking dead fall, the saw behaves very erratic in areas where the log is fractured.



Splits, rots, anything. Wood is dynamic stuff; be heads-up about its potential to hurt you.



Now, regarding the matter of poor manners: I intend to educate not only MtnHermit here, but also anybody else who comes here looking for answers. I would be doing all a disservice by refusing to answer these questions when someone could get hurt for lack of guidance. This is a "new" guy who may not know the Rules Of The Road here, and gets the same chance to sink or swim that anybody does, and the questions are pertinent to pretty much all of us.


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## slowp (Aug 7, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts....yet, but that looks strangely like a tree I posted a picture of, and ended up cutting out of the trail after the snow was gone. It had a large rootwad just above the trail, which I looked at closely, and figured out that it might stay in place because it had a rock kind of holding it. But, I cut from the side it was not going to roll to, and kept an eye on it. I cut the tree right on the trail, and it stayed in place. So, I just opened the trail up. 

I used orange wedges in it because it was likely to close up on the first cut. Oh, and did I mention I did it all from the safe side. No working on the side that it might roll to, if the rock failed. I couldn't find anybody to go help, so I had a plan and checked in via cell phone with somebody who lived almost next door to the trail.

I put up some flagging to block the trail and The Used Dog was in position with stuff in his backpacks. 

All went as planned. I just took the sharp edges off afterwards, just to make it maybe not hurt as much if somebody tipped their bike over on it. 







Now I'll read the other posts on here. 

View attachment 193390


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2011)

OH, and I will emphasize again, LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE ROOTWAD, AND KEEP AN EYE ON IT WHILE CUTTING. 

I didn't have a peavy, but I wished I did, and I do have one now. They are one of the best inventions ever for practical use in the woods, and are perfect for trail work.


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> This photo is typical of a trail maintenance project I want to do. I've two main concerns, chainsaw binding and a log rolling on me and I'm seeking "been there, done that" practical advice. Where should I cut? Please use uphill/downhill and top/bottom so that I'll understand your directions. There's no snow, just this photo shows the basic tree/trail situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm, that is the same tree. Here is one with my late faithful Golden. Yup, how did it end up in Colorado?





View attachment 193391


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2011)

Well well well. The question is where did the dog go? I believe the OP moved the tree to Colorado but what did he do with Nanook? I think a chubacabra got him.


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## Gologit (Aug 8, 2011)

Hmmm...I think maybe we've been had. He can have the damn tree but he better not keep that dog. 

Think maybe a better description of his picture might have been in order? As in..."this is similar to a tree I want to cut".

Heck of a deal...SlowP takes a weekend off and somebody puts her tree back together, moves it to Colorado, and disappears a perfectly good dog.


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## Joe46 (Aug 8, 2011)

Does make one wonder doesn't it? It might just be me, but I think that log would be heavier to drag than a peavey:monkey:


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Well well well. The question is where did the dog go? I believe the OP moved the tree to Colorado but what did he do with Nanook? I think a chubacabra got him.



Nanook, and that was only her name for that day, passed away a couple months later. As you see in the picture where I cut the log open, The Used Dog had arrived, and that was his first real job with me. 

But there could be an exact copy the tree, trail and vegetation in Collyraddy, couldn't there?


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## madhatte (Aug 8, 2011)

I smell a rat. Don't much care for bein' lied to.


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2011)

*????????????????*

?????

I was pretty sure that I replied to this yesterday (same thread posted in a different forum?) but my words of wisdom appear to have been deleted. So I repeat myself. I also repeat myself.

+1 on all of the comments about not working alone.

I have worked on a few trail maintenance projects, and it is always nice to have a variety of tools – machete, Pulaski, axe, pole saw, tinber jack, wedges, bull rope, chainsaw tools, second chainsaw, etc. – along with your fuel, water, food, first aid kit, etc.

You did not state what kind of trail you will be working on (ATV, horseback, mountain bike, walking, ski, etc.), but I assume that it is not a wilderness area as you are using chainsaws. The type of trail suggests ways that you can carry your supplies (whatever you choose):

ATV is obvious. Used kiddie trailers (Craigs List) can be modified to carry stuff on many bike trails. Large wheel garden carts or wagons can be used on many horse and ski trails. Wheelbarrows work, but tend to get tippy when loaded up. In your photo you show snow – a heavy-duty plastic sled (type sold to hunters or ice fishermen) works in those conditons.

Having a cart is a good way to save your energy for the tree cutting work instead of for the schlepping of gear.

Philbert


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## lfnh (Aug 8, 2011)

To OP:
"borrowing" someone else's photo without credit is a dead end with me.
post 11 -yup, that was a real gem.

The upside of the posts is down the road, someone else will find the advice given valuable and keep them outa trouble. Just my opinion.


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## Bermie (Aug 8, 2011)

I also replied to this post when it was in another area...

TENSION and COMPRESSION...you NEED to learn what they are, and how they affect cutting decisions.
You replied with 'what do you mean' to one poster who said 'relieve tension as you cut' or words to that effect.
If you do NOT know what these forces are, you need to learn and practice BEFORE you go out, especially as it sounds like you intend to go alone. Ignorance can kill you. 
Having a description in words off the internet is not a substitute for learning and experience. Go try it somewhere close to help before buggering of into the woods alone armed with nothing but a printout of this discussion.

Learn about, understand and be able to recognize where the forces of tension and compression may be distributed in any piece of timber you want to cut, it will affect your choice of cuts and the placement of them, especially with a lot of mass involved
Bring two saw, wedges, maul, rope
Bring a very good first aid kit and communication device
have an EMERGENCY PLAN


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## jerrycmorrow (Aug 8, 2011)

slowp said:


> Hmmm, that is the same tree. Here is one with my late faithful Golden. Yup, how did it end up in Colorado?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
even the ice and snow take the same forms on the tree. to be fair the OP did say the photo was typical of a project he was gonna undertake. maybe not a rat but definitely an ingrate


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## hammerlogging (Aug 8, 2011)

If you don't bring the kitchen sink, you'll get to go back for it. If you do bring it, you might not need it, but it sure beats going back for it.

I, and others, tote a kitchen sink around with us daily. Granted, its a small as possible, but RARELY do I have to make a trip back to the truck during the day, maybe once a year.

Today my axe head had loosened up too far, way too far. I was pounding one over in an SMZ and repeatedly had to drop the handle to slide the head back into position, and I couldn't really hit the wedges much or the head was likely to come on off--
cut a micro wedge and pounded it right in there, secure for the rest of the day. Not brilliant, not clarvoyant, nothing too remarkable, but it kept me going, without a trip to the truck where a new axe hadle awaits. 

No, i didn't put the handle on tonight, I think the wedge is going to hold.


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## r&r (Aug 8, 2011)

bring wedges something to drive them axes work good and an extra saw or at least an extra bar and chain.
Cut it off then use part of that log (or whatever one you actually will cut) to create a choke point to slow down them dang mountain bikers. 
And watch out for that ladies dog.


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2011)

r&r said:


> bring wedges something to drive them axes work good and an extra saw or at least an extra bar and chain.
> Cut it off then use part of that log (or whatever one you actually will cut) to create a choke point to slow down them dang mountain bikers.
> And watch out for that guys dog.



I am not a guy. I know I was wishing for a peavy when I cut that tree out. Instead, I cut a big kerf, and pushed a lot.


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## rwoods (Aug 8, 2011)

Not to highjack the thread, but let's go back to the peavy for a second. What's the point/spike for? I thought it was for loading logs, or for use with floating logs. I'm no logger - but my most used tool next to the saw is a cant hook with a three foot handle (was my dad's). I have the typical long handle one as well (I seem to use it more and more as I get older); I bought it over a peavy as I couldn't see any purpose in the spike for my firewood type work. I must be missing something. Ron


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2011)

rwoods said:


> . . . my most used tool next to the saw is a cant hook with a three foot handle (was my dad's). . . . ; I bought it over a peavy as I couldn't see any purpose in the spike for my firewood type work. I must be missing something.



Yeah, if you Google 'Cant Hook Versus Peavy' most of the threads take you back here to A.S!

The cant hook makes more sense to me for turning a log, with a right angle tooth that digs into the log, instead of the long point. Actually, I prefer the timber jack - basically a cant hook with a removable stand that lets you lift (some) logs off the ground for cutting, or can be used as a basic cant hook. Maybe we should be more positive and call it a _Can_ hook?

But they seem to sell a lot of each kind, so there must be other opinions.

JMHO

Philbert


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2011)

When the chunk is on the big side, I jam the point in and hook the hingie thing in and I can move a pretty good for me sized piece. I used the peavy to move a maple chunk up onto level ground. I had to jam pieces of split wood under it as I went to keep it from rolling down the hill. I really needed another body as the Used Dog refused to help. Some unoriginal language, and contortions got it done. 

That's what I thought the pointy end was for.


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2011)

slowp said:


> the Used Dog refused to help.


 
You need to get the used dog a harness and teach him the word 'HIKE!"

Philbert


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## 2dogs (Aug 9, 2011)

This is what happens when a really strong guy uses an unbendable peavey.


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## paccity (Aug 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> This is what happens when a really strong guy uses an unbendable peavey.


 
that looks like a logright, i think the'll waranty that.


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## Gologit (Aug 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> When the chunk is on the big side, I jam the point in and hook the hingie thing in and I can move a pretty good for me sized piece. I used the peavy to move a maple chunk up onto level ground. I had to jam pieces of split wood under it as I went to keep it from rolling down the hill. I really needed another body as the Used Dog refused to help. Some unoriginal language, and contortions got it done.
> 
> That's what I thought the pointy end was for.


 
The pointy end is also for sticking in the ground or a stump or log so the peavey stays upright...and visible. They're harder to run over that way. No impossible, just harder.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2011)

I also used the pointy end to encourage a young bull to step away from the pickup. He is now in the freezer, but not because I prodded him. He was a friendly bull.


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## Philbert (Aug 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> This is what happens when a really strong guy uses an unbendable peavey.


 
As long as we are on topic of peaveys, cant hooks, and timberjacks - wood, fiberglass, or metal handles?

I like the idea that metal is lighter - but worry about bending, like in 2dogs photos. After all, these are heavily used leverage tools - not just salad forks. If the metal it thick enough, then it loses its weight advantage.

Similar with fiberglass - I like the light weight, and like fiberglass long-handled tools (shovels, rakes, etc.), but worry about them snapping, especially if they get scored or scratched.

Seems to leave a good quality wood handle as the best choice? I suppose that they could engineer a laminated handle that would be stiff and strong.

Philbert


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## Joe46 (Aug 9, 2011)

Philbert said:


> As long as we are on topic of peaveys, cant hooks, and timberjacks - wood, fiberglass, or metal handles?
> 
> I like the idea that metal is lighter - but worry about bending, like in 2dogs photos. After all, these are heavily used leverage tools - not just salad forks. If the metal it thick enough, then it loses its weight advantage.
> 
> ...


 Wood.


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## Sagetown (Aug 9, 2011)

2dogs said:


> This is what happens when a really strong guy uses an unbendable peavey.


 
Exactly! A nice sized 30' tree is to much for a peavy. Cut the tree in 3rds, then the peavy works great.


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## madhatte (Aug 9, 2011)

I like wood handles on all of my tools where a wood handle is an option.


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## 2dogs (Aug 9, 2011)

I have both a wood handle cant hook and a LogRite/Stihl metal handle peavey. Both are 5' long. I prefer the metal handle and will buy the Log Rite 78" cant hook soon. I also much prefer a peavey because like Gologit it said it will stand upright once you jam the point into the ground. It also work better as a lever when two of us are working opposite ends of a log.

The new wood handle on my cant hooks really bends when I put all my measley strength into it. It bends so much it scares me.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2011)

I got a wooden handled peavy. Funny thing, the swap meet beater peavys were almost the same price as a brand new one at the saw shop. So, I got a brand new one at the saw shop. Imagine that!


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## Philbert (Aug 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> . . . the swap meet beater peavys were almost the same price as a brand new one at the saw shop.


 
???? _Who_ are beating with your peaveys !?!?! Is _tha_t what you think the point is for?

Philbert


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## Joe46 (Aug 9, 2011)

I think with all things wood it's hard to find good material anymore. I bought my peavey sometime in the 70's. Still original handle, and it's seen a lot of use.


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## rwoods (Aug 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. So would the best of both worlds be a cant hook with a spike on the shoe or put another way a peavy with a shoe? Ron


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## rwoods (Aug 9, 2011)

slowp said:


> I also used the pointy end to encourage a young bull to step away from the pickup. He is now in the freezer, but not because I prodded him. He was a friendly bull.


 
Bull burgers - nothing quite like them. 

40 years ago we were driving cattle towards the pen and our biggest bull didn't want to go. After he head swapped the front fender on our 68 Chevy PU (its first real big dent), Daddy got out, walked to the back, pulled a 2 lb ball peen hammer and a claw hammer out of the tool box, popped that 2000# bull in the neck with the ball peen, bull moved about 30 feet and turned his head back our way, Daddy popped him with the claw hammer when he reached the ball peen, repeated the process for 100 yards of so until the old bull decided to join the herd. A peavy would have worked but you would have been a little close for comfort should the old bull decide to challenge you. 

Ron


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## slowp (Aug 10, 2011)

rwoods said:


> Bull burgers - nothing quite like them.
> 
> 40 years ago we were driving cattle towards the pen and our biggest bull didn't want to go. After he head swapped the front fender on our 68 Chevy PU (its first real big dent), Daddy got out, walked to the back, pulled a 2 lb ball peen hammer and a claw hammer out of the tool box, popped that 2000# bull in the neck with the ball peen, bull moved about 30 feet and turned his head back our way, Daddy popped him with the claw hammer when he reached the ball peen, repeated the process for 100 yards of so until the old bull decided to join the herd. A peavy would have worked but you would have been a little close for comfort should the old bull decide to challenge you.
> 
> Ron


 
My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle taught us to whack a bovine in the nose. He carried a baseball bat or something similar during calving season. He was an animal whisperer--had a way with animals, but there was always a mean cow that didn't want her calf messed with. 

Now, a peavey would be a bit heavy to pack around while checking cows. I believe it would be unhandy to carry while riding a horse too. So, I would not recommend every day use amongst the cows. I just happened to have it handy and like I said, that bull was friendly (although Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle said to never trust a bull and this lecture was given while watching him scratch the head of a bull) so it was just a little prod for him.


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## Sagetown (Aug 10, 2011)

slowp said:


> My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle taught us to whack a bovine in the nose. He carried a baseball bat or something similar during calving season. He was an animal whisperer--had a way with animals, but there was* always a mean cow that didn't want her calf messed with*.
> 
> Now, a peavey would be a bit heavy to pack around while checking cows. I believe it would be unhandy to carry while riding a horse too. So, I would not recommend every day use amongst the cows. I just happened to have it handy and like I said, that bull was friendly (although Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle said to never trust a bull and this lecture was given while watching him scratch the head of a bull) so it was just a little prod for him.



"mean cow that didn't want her calf messed with" ~ My personal experience is to approach the newborn between me and the cow. Generally they'll not step over the newborn, but she'll shake her head and paw the ground. I then grab the calf holding it on its all fours. If you pick it up you're toast, but as long as she relates to it on the ground you're safe. Quick inspections for soundness, scours, and type, then back off from it slowly, and all is well. Normally!:msp_w00t:


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## rwoods (Aug 10, 2011)

slowp said:


> My Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle taught us to whack a bovine in the nose. He carried a baseball bat or something similar during calving season. He was an animal whisperer--had a way with animals, but there was always a mean cow that didn't want her calf messed with.
> 
> Now, a peavey would be a bit heavy to pack around while checking cows. I believe it would be unhandy to carry while riding a horse too. So, I would not recommend every day use amongst the cows. I just happened to have it handy and like I said, that bull was friendly *(although Scandihoovian Cowboy Uncle said to never trust a bull and this lecture was given while watching him scratch the head of a bull)* so it was just a little prod for him.


 
One of those do as I say but not as I do moments. I too was trained as a child not to mess with bulls and was regularily schooled on the subject by my father and others; you can imagine my thoughts the day I watched him walk up to two battling bulls, put one hand on one bull's head and the other hand on the other bull's head, and push them apart. I had enough sense not to go home and tell what I witnessed. Ron


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## Philbert (Aug 10, 2011)

So, I thought I might get lucky and searched the local Craig's List for 'peavey' and got like 100 hits! That's when I found out about Peavey amplifiers for rock and roll bands.

Searching under 'tools' or 'farm and garden' got me zip.

Philbert.


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## slowp (Aug 10, 2011)

They are spendy. I found the lowest prices for new at the saw shop I frequent. The one that is south of the famous one. 

I think the trail crews usually carry one. They make getting that first chunk out so much easier, and also one can jockey around longer pieces.


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## Sagetown (Aug 10, 2011)

Philbert said:


> So, I thought I might get lucky and searched the local Craig's List for 'peavey' and got like 100 hits! That's when I found out about Peavey amplifiers for rock and roll bands.
> 
> Searching under 'tools' or 'farm and garden' got me zip.
> 
> Philbert.


  
You might try looking under "logging peavy" or "can't hook".


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## Gologit (Aug 10, 2011)

Bailey's has them.


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## floyd (Aug 11, 2011)

Did you ever play pick up sticks as a youngster? Now you are playing with a saw instead. Don't cut yourself.

A peavy is just a big lever with some handy attachments.

Could help you so you don't cut yourself.


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## AT sawyer (Aug 11, 2011)

*Never used a Peavey, but get lots of use from Maasdam rope puller*

Here's a trail blowdown. Unstable rootwad tied off and secured with a Maasdam rope puller (lightweight and easily carried). Cuts on the plug were offset so it would drop clean. Use of wedges to keep kerf open and axe driven hard across kerf to keep the log from rolling away. 

Not sure if these will post. Can't seem to insert them into the link.

View attachment 194022
View attachment 194023
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=194023&d=1313115375http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=194022&d=1313115374


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2011)

AT sawyer said:


> lowdown. Unstable rootwad tied off and secured with a Maasdam rope puller (lightweight and easily carried).


 
Good point - some logs you might be able to pull off of the trail without necessarily cutting them.

Rope is amazing stuff. In a whitewater rescue class, many years ago, we learned how to use a few carabiners and pulleys to make a 'Z-drag', or a stout stick to make a 'Spanish Windlass', to pull stuck canoes or kayaks from the river. Same techniques would work on logs in a remote setting.

Philbert


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## AT sawyer (Aug 11, 2011)

I once used a windlass to pull my truck out of a rut in the backcountry. Just don't lose your grip on that pole!


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## slowp (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, I volunteered to help do some kind of trail maintenance. It'll be the next weekend. I have no idea what I'll be doing. I think we'll be in the wilderness so no chainsaws allowed. My green card is not good for a misery whip. I think I'll probably be running a pulaski. 

The bugs are fierce this year.


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## Sagetown (Aug 12, 2011)

slowp said:


> Well, I volunteered to help do some kind of trail maintenance. It'll be the next weekend. I have no idea what I'll be doing. I think we'll be in the wilderness so no chainsaws allowed. My green card is not good for a misery whip. I think I'll probably be running a pulaski.
> 
> The bugs are fierce this year.


 
Well; I know what AT Sawyer's windlass is, but what on this green earth is a pulaski?


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## Philbert (Aug 12, 2011)

Sagetown said:


> but what on this green earth is a pulaski?


 
Google it. Part axe; part pick/adze. Used for fire fighting and trail building. The tool to reach for when someone wants to borrow your chainsaw to 'cut out some roots'.

Philbert


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## lfnh (Aug 12, 2011)

floyd said:


> Did you ever play pick up sticks as a youngster? Now you are playing with a saw instead. Don't cut yourself.
> 
> A peavy is just a big lever with some handy attachments.
> 
> Could help you so you don't cut yourself.


 
Reminded me of a WPA story read some time ago -

Robert Wilder

Massachusetts

SAVE THE PEAVIES

Sure, I worked for old Van Dyke, God rest his soul in pieces! Perhaps I shouldn't have said that. What I mean is that I hope he's in the blackest part of hell, rolling iron logs with a red hot peavey. And nothing to eat but beans and codfish either!

"Sure, I worked on the drives from Connecticut Lake to Mr. [Tom?]. But I generally stopped at Turner's Falls. And don't call us log drivers. We're river men. And {Begin handwritten}[ya?]{End handwritten} should have ought to have heard the gang [cheer?] when old Van dyke slipped, and we all seen he was a goner!

Yes, I'd go up in the fall and spend the winter in the woods. We'd cut the logs and pile {Begin handwritten}them{End handwritten} on the bank of a little stream somewheres, if it {Begin deleted text}[wasn't?]{End deleted text} {Begin inserted text}[weren't?]{End inserted text} handy to get them to the river. We had to mark each one with the company mark, kind of a brand, I guess, out in the end of each log. {Begin handwritten}And{End handwritten} they were piled in such a way that when the [freshot?] came in the spring, we could yank out a couple of props, and the whole caboodle of logs would go rolling into the water.

We'd send a small gang on ahead - maybe a couple of boats - to break up the jams, and keep the drive going. Then the bunch of us would come with the horses. And last would come another small gang with maybe a team or two, to haul in the logs the farmers had stole offen us.

And I guess maybe the gang changed the marking on a log once in a while, if they thought it would pay.

"The idea was for the first bunch to ride the [freshot?]. And not let the drive get held up. Of course, the water would take the logs over meadows, and when the river went down, we'd have to haul them out with 


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horses. But we knew where it was liable to happen, so we'd have a man at the right place to keep them in the current. And sometimes two, or three. And sometimes we'd string a boom - hitch logs end to end. And hitch the ends to trees, maybe - so the boom would steer the logs for us. For the quicker we got the drive through, the cheaper it was for old Van Dyke. He didn't have so big a payroll. And that old devil was everywhere. Last part of it he had a car and chauffeur, so's he didn't have to drive, but could keep his mind on [swearing?].

"Such sleep as we get, we get on the ground. And then be waked up by a kick from Van Dyke's boot, if he caught you at it. Guess, he never slept at all. And to save time in cooking, the cook of the first gang would bury beans in bean posts in holes dug in the sand and filled with hot coals, so that the next bunch didn't need to waste any time.

"I got sick of being wet and cold all the time, so I got a job cooking. Van Dyke told me that if I'd run alone I could stand on a log.

And what the L was I cold for? That work would keep me warm. But I told him I thought I could save him money on the grub. So I get the job.

"We used to but our supplies from little stores in the towns along the river that stood in with Van Dyke. And they used to give me a little book with what I'd bought written in it. I bought anything they had that I thought the boys would like. But I make the storekeeper write in beans so much, and codfish so much. But nothing else. I let the storekeeper charge up a pound or so extra for doing this.

"One day Van Dyke came running. He'd seen some egg shells in the ashes of one of my campfires up river. 'show me your books!' He yelled.

I showed 'em. He couldn't read much. But he knew beans and codfish when 


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he seen it. He looked surprised. But he said, 'that's the stuff, [Nop?], beans and codfish is good enough for peasoups. (1) Sock it to 'em!"

But after that I buried my egg shells.

"He said codfish helped a man to swim. And that beans was better than dynamite for blowing up a jam. What he meant was he liked them because they was cheap. And that men had to be well fed on something or they couldn't do their work.

"One time, in the French King Rapids, the logs jammed. And when a couple of the gang went out to hunt the key log, the jam broke. The men ran for it, but it was no use, both got knocked into the water. Of course, we ran out on the logs to help. But old Van Dyke yelled {Begin handwritten},{End handwritten} "[Never?] mind the men, Save the peavies?" That was him. Never mind the men, he could get more. But the peavies - the [hooks?] on a wooden handle, that we rolled logs with, you know - was property. And property cost money.

["?]Yes, a peavy is like a [cnathook?], except a peavy has a spike [on?] the {Begin handwritten}end.{End handwritten}

"So maybe we didn't cheer that day at Turner's Falls, when Van Dyke has his chauffeur back his touring car to the edge of that cliff that overlooks the Falls, so's he could stank up in back and wave his arms and swear at us. I was standing on a boom out in the middle of the river, pushing logs that was branded for down the river so's they'd go over the Falls, and steering those we wanted inside the boom, and keeping one eye on Van Dyke, like everyone else. Guess the Falls was making too much noise to suit him, and he wanted to get nearer so's we wouldn't miss anything he was saying. He waved the chauffeur to back more. The chauffeur acted scared and only backed a couple of feet, and stopped so's Van Dyke almost lost his balance - he was standing in back, He turned around and (1) [?] - French Canadians 


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said something to the chauffeur then stood watching him fumbling with the handles. The man was badly rattled, I guess, with Van Dyke right there on his neck almost. The car coughed once or twice, and then shot back over the cliff. And, my, didn't we cheer! 'Never mind the man, save his matches!' yelled somebody. And we all cheered again.

We were awful sorry for the chauffeur, though. We'd forgotten all about him. And both of 'em were killed deader'n the codfish old Van Dyke used to make us eat.

When you asked me about Van Dyke, I thought I hated him. And was glad he was gone. But now I've been talking about him, I'm not so sure.

I was only a kid then. But I see now that old Van Dyke was up against the railroads. He had to do things on the cheap in order to save his job and ours. Sure, he was hard. But maybe we weren't so soft ourselves. People in the Turner's Falls stores didn't like us walking on their hardwood floors in our caulked boots - shoes with spikes in the bottom to keep us from slipping off the logs. We chipped little pieces out of the varnish every step we took. And when they kicked, maybe we didn't take them places apart! Ever see a man who's had the small pox? Face all pitted? Well, if he was a river man, maybe he had small pox, and maybe he didn't. Maybe some boys tramped on his face with caulked boots.

If they weren't any ladies around, I could show you where they tromped on me, when I put salt instead of sugar in their coffee by mistake.

Believe me, I'm tattooed!

"One thing old Van Dyke seemed to like. That was to hear us sing. Not that we ever sang much. But sometimes when the old river was rolling the logs along nice. And we'd finished our grub in the evening, we'd strike up a song. And old Van Dyke never butted in.


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"No, I can't remember the songs. Wish I could. I mind a verse of one though. It had lots of verses and some of them weren't exactly pretty. But the one I like went this way - 

'Oh, some ye lousy rivermen 
Come on and gather round! 
We'll sing a song of French King Rock, 
Where the bunch of us was drowned!'


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## Philbert (Aug 18, 2011)

slowp said:


> I got a wooden handled peavy. So, I got a brand new one at the saw shop.


 
I just received a Timber Jack manufactured by Peavey. I looked at some of the imports and cheap metal ones, and decided to buy American. Have never seen the LogRite in person, so was a little skeptical about their higher quality metal handle, and taken aback a bit by the cost of their heavy duty ones. Will post a thread on it with some comments and photos.

Philbert


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