# Making a ripping chain



## aggiewoodbutchr

Here's my first go at making a ripping chain similar to what Granberg has pictured on their website. You'll also see the new Maxx chain grinder in action. I looked closely at Stihl and Oregon 511a grinders at local saw shops before I purchased this one. From what I saw, this machine gives you more features, such as automatic clamping and ambidextrous adjustments, than others in it's price range.

I started with WoodsmanPro 33RP 3/8 .063 chain and marked the top plates not to be ground off.







Removed the tops. The diamond wheel paid off here. I tried it on a regular wheel first and it blued the tooth like crazy.






Tops gone.
















You can see that I left about 1/32" of the top. If I had ground it off flush the remaining scoring tooth would have been way too thin at the top due to the rounded edge. (Thanks again for the tip, Lakeside)


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## aggiewoodbutchr

The cutting teeth were ground at 0 degrees top plate angle, 55 degree top plate cutting angle, and 80 degree side plate angle.






I spot checked the cutter lengths as I went. When you get the feel of how to set each tooth, the grinder is reasonably accurate.






Right side








I didn't take any pictures, but the scoring teeth were ground in a similar maner. The angles were set at 5 deg top plate, 70 deg top plate cutting and 0 side plate. By checking with the calipers I made sure their length matched the cutting teeth.

Removed the wire edge by pulling a diamond laping stone across the tops.






Tooth grind compete


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## aggiewoodbutchr

*#3*

The scoring rakers were set at .040" and cutting rakers were set at .030"






I set the grinder at 70 deg. and eased the front edge of the rakers with just a light touch.






Chain finished and cleaned up.











Total time spent on a 44" loop was about 4 hours but this includes learning curve time and fixing a few minor oopses. I think it should take half that next time.

ANYBODY feel free to offer critiques. This is new to me and I want to get it right. I'll put this chain to the test once I get my saw back.

Enjoy!


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## thompson1600

Nice write up. Let us know how they work. I've got the Stihl USG grinder and I've been thinking of trying to make my own Granberg style, but hadn't done it yet because of all the time (or my laziness). The Granberg chains I've bought have worked real well.


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## CaseyForrest

I am tossing around the idea of getting a grinder. I so love to hand file, but with the number of chains I have now, and the want to do exactly what you did, I may end up getting one.

Let us know if you notice any faster cutting times.


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## hautions11

*Chains*

Great write-up Aggie! I have only used Bauley's rip chain so far. Once I decide on 404 Vs. .375 I'll have to dig in to it a little more. Thanks for the Tutorial.


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## woodshop

hautions11 said:


> Great write-up Aggie! I have only used Bauley's rip chain so far. Once I decide on 404 Vs. .375 I'll have to dig in to it a little more. Thanks for the Tutorial.


Ditto aggie... great write up with pics and lots of detail. So far like hautions, I have used only Baileys rip chain or on occasion, just strait chain in a pinch. You are way ahead of me (us) when it comes to making your own chain. As for time vs money saved, just curious what do you figure 2 hours of your time is worth?


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## carvinmark

I agree, nice details. It sure did take some time, but like you said, the learning curve. I'll be very interested in the results, hope you can cut longer between sharpening and it cuts faster. Should be back to norman grinding time on your next grind,I have never tried this yet but want to.
Mark


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## smithie55

excellent writeup, good job.
FYI
152 links of 3/8th .063 Granberg ripping chain from Toolcenter is $73.00 (that includes S&H)
What are you paying for 152 links of full comp chain?
What would happen if you used semi-skip and removed 1 top plate per 2 cutters? Would it make your cut surface rougher?
Milling around


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Thanks for the comments everyone.



woodshop said:


> As for time vs money saved, just curious what do you figure 2 hours of your time is worth?



Are we talking work or play hours? These 142 link loops of chain cost me $28.40 plus H&S from Bailey's ($.20 per). I usually buy several chains at a time so lets say $3 per chain. 2 hours of work in the evening while drinking beer for a savings of $42 is acceptable for me. However, this is not my main concern in this venture. My goal is to find the most efficient chain for the work I'm doing. I intend to take notes of cut times, smoothness, sharpening, behavior of the saw, etc. to build sort of a performance data base. Results will be shared, of course.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

smithie55 said:


> What would happen if you used semi-skip and removed 1 top plate per 2 cutters? Would it make your cut surface rougher?
> Milling around




I have some full skip for the 72" bar I _may_ try but it would be the same pattern. If I understand your question correctly and you only removed 1 top per 2 cutters, all the remaining cutters would be on the same side. It might work for cutting a boat's keel but not really good for lumber.:biggrinbounce2:


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## smithie55

> What would happen if you used semi-skip and removed 1 top plate per 2 cutters? Would it make your cut surface rougher?


I was thinking that you could take semi-skip chain and instead of having 2 cutters and 2 scoring teeth like on full-comp, that you could have say 1 scoring tooth to one cutting tooth on the left and the same on the right, but I was also thinking that that could possibly create a rough surface.
I may try that and see.


> These 142 link loops of chain cost me $28.40 plus H&S from Bailey's ($.20 per). I usually buy several chains at a time so lets say $3 per chain. 2 hours of work in the evening while drinking beer for a savings of $42 is acceptable for me


That is significant savings.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

smithie55 said:


> I was thinking that you could take semi-skip chain and instead of having 2 cutters and 2 scoring teeth like on full-comp, that you could have say 1 scoring tooth to one cutting tooth on the left and the same on the right,



I think I follow what you are saying. The chain I made has a 2 scoring to 1 cutter pattern. 1 to 1 on _each side _is the same as 2 to 2 down the length of the chain.

Here my chain with a 2 to 1 pattern.






Here's a full comp chain marked in a 2 to 2 pattern.






Here's a semi-skip chain marked in a 2 to 2 pattern. As you can see it can be done in 2 different ways.






If I were to use semi-skip, I probably would choose the second pattern. It just seems more balanced for lack of a better term. As far as smoothness of cut, I don't think it would be significantly worse than full comp. I've used 30 degree full skip micro-chisel chain for ripping before and the finish was comparable to that of a ripping chain.

Personally, I would only consider a semi-skip chain if I were using a long bar (42"+) on a smaller (80 -90 cc) saw. I watched some guys mill a 48" oak with a 60" bar on an 066 before. They were using full comp ripping chain in good condition but the saw wasn't too happy.


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## hautions11

*Bars*

Aggie I PM'd you on your bars several times but did not get a response. Maybe your PM box is full.

Larry


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## casey v

I have made numerous ripping chains that cut fast and leave a very smooth finish. I take and older full comp chisel chain and refile it to a couple of degrees from straight across. I like to use older chains, because we all know that a cutter that has been filed back gets narrower which means less of a kerf and less power for the saw to pull the chain through the cut. Once the chain has been refiled, clean out the gullets and refile the rakers to .025 to .03 of an inch, and you are good to go. This is also real easy to refile with an Alaskan on the bar in the field. Quicker than swapping out a chain.:biggrinbounce2: 

Mike


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Where's the teeth?
:hmm3grin2orange:


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## casey v

Aggie, its more like gums. Works well for me. Now if I had a fancy new grinder like you, I would be dangerous.:hmm3grin2orange: 

Mike


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## woodshop

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> My goal is to find the most efficient chain for the work I'm doing. I intend to take notes of cut times, smoothness, sharpening, behavior of the saw, etc. to build sort of a performance data base. Results will be shared, of course.


Aggie, wish I had time to do what you are doing, tweaking and experimenting with ripping chain. I just have too many irons in the fire, have to balance my "play" time with productive time in my woodshop ramping up for my fall shows. Guys like me appreciate your efforts though, and looking forward to field data on your regound chain when you get to it. I also like caseys idea of using older chains... doesn't look all that labor intensive, might give that a try myself on one of my worn out loops.


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## casey v

Woodshop,

Give it a try, I think you will be pleasently surprised. Should take about an hour to do depending on the nu mber of cutters that need to be refiled.

Aggie,

Please keep us posted, I am curious as to how the different grinds preform. Have you noticed any difference with the Granberg style as compared to say the Oregon RD or Baileys ripping chain? I have always wanted to try the Granberg style, but filing away half the top plate (by hand) didn't seem like fun. 

Thanks Mike


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## aggiewoodbutchr

casey v said:


> Woodshop,
> 
> Give it a try, I think you will be pleasently surprised. Should take about an hour to do depending on the nu mber of cutters that need to be refiled.
> 
> Aggie,
> 
> Please keep us posted, I am curious as to how the different grinds preform. Have you noticed any difference with the Granberg style as compared to say the Oregon RD or Baileys ripping chain? I have always wanted to try the Granberg style, but filing away half the top plate (by hand) didn't seem like fun.
> 
> Thanks Mike



Dunno yet. My saw should be back this week. Do you have a dremmel tool? I'm sure one of those fine cutoff wheels would work for removing the top plates.


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## woodshop

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Dunno yet. My saw should be back this week. Do you have a dremmel tool? I'm sure one of those fine cutoff wheels would work for removing the top plates.


My limited experience with Dremel tools for cutting steel is that those small diamond or abrasive wheels wear out pretty quick, and even bought by the dozen, are not exactly cheap. Havn't tried it, but based on a little cutting with one I did last year, I bet you would go through a whole mess of wheels to slice off enough top plates for a big chain. Just guessing...


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## aggiewoodbutchr

woodshop said:


> My limited experience with Dremel tools for cutting steel is that those small diamond or abrasive wheels wear out pretty quick, and even bought by the dozen, are not exactly cheap. Havn't tried it, but based on a little cutting with one I did last year, I bet you would go through a whole mess of wheels to slice off enough top plates for a big chain. Just guessing...




I personally think it would still be better than doing it by hand. The abrasive wheels are cheap but usually break before they wear out and the diamond wheels last longer but are pretty expensive. I use mine quite often and while they aren't the greatest tools in the world, they'll do lot of little odd jobs well enough. However, this is coming from a guy who bought a chain grinder instead.


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## woodshop

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> I personally think it would still be better than doing it by hand. The abrasive wheels are cheap but usually break before they wear out and the diamond wheels last longer but are pretty expensive. I use mine quite often and while they aren't the greatest tools in the world, they'll do lot of little odd jobs well enough. However, this is coming from a guy who bought a chain grinder instead.


...don't get me wrong, I use my little dremel tool for lots of little odd jobs in my shop where a bigger drill/grinder either won't fit or is too powerful. I love my dremel tool. I just pictured me sitting in front of my vice with a 125 link chain cutting off top plate after top plate... just don't think I would want to spend the time doing that unless I was getting a huge return. But then, when you give us your results, maybe it turns out it might be worth it right? As I said before, guys like me appreciate guys like you taking the time to experiment and let us in on your results.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

woodshop said:


> ...dI just pictured me sitting in front of my vice with a 125 link chain cutting off top plate after top plate...



If this works and I do it to one of the 72" loops it will be 220 links. _Only_ 73 cutters to modify. Beer will definitely be involved.:biggrinbounce2:


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## stingray bay

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> If this works and I do it to one of the 72" loops it will be 220 links. _Only_ 73 cutters to modify. Beer will definitely be involved.:biggrinbounce2:



hey aggie, wheres the update with pics of your chain testing?


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Wow, it's hard to believe it's been a month since I did this. Still no saw. I'm hoping this week.


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## smithie55

Aggie,
A while back we were discussing the difference between make a milling chain from full comp, and semi skip. I realized that after milling with full comp and falling and bucking with skip chain, that you wouldn't get a smooth cut with skip chain, it takes the full comp to get a nice cut.
Your post got me all motivated. I talked to my local saw shop and he will sell me a 25' spool of full comp semi-chisel square/round ground for .15 per DL, so I'm going to go that route, as well as I bought a small pnuematic cutoff saw and some 3" cut off blades. I tryed a couple teeth and it is going to work real good. And I need to get a spinner and chain breaker and I'm set for making my own milling chain. This will allow me to have several chains at the milling site.
Thanks again for your great post.
Happy Millin'


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## aggiewoodbutchr

smithie55 said:


> Aggie,
> A while back we were discussing the difference between make a milling chain from full comp, and semi skip. I realized that after milling with full comp and falling and bucking with skip chain, that you wouldn't get a smooth cut with skip chain, it takes the full comp to get a nice cut.
> Your post got me all motivated. I talked to my local saw shop and he will sell me a 25' spool of full comp semi-chisel square/round ground for .15 per DL, so I'm going to go that route, as well as I bought a small pnuematic cutoff saw and some 3" cut off blades. I tryed a couple teeth and it is going to work real good. And I need to get a spinner and chain breaker and I'm set for making my own milling chain. This will allow me to have several chains at the milling site.
> Thanks again for your great post.
> Happy Millin'



Cool!  Glad to help.


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## Rail-O-Matic

*ripping chain*

The chain picture is exactly the way I have done them in the past, one thing I did notice is, the pink grinding wheel pictured has a square edge to it, if you profile the wheel, using another rougher stone, so it is the same shape as a file, you get a better cutting action, 
it has more of a slicing effect rather than a riving effect when the tooth gullett is more rounded, also if you make the side cutters, or what they become once you have taken off the top chisel, try to leave them so they are slightly wider at the front cutting edge, a wedge shape if viewed from above, and they will stay sharper for longer and give a better clearing cut.


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## woodshop

OK aggie, smithie, rail... you're all getting me REAL curious now... I just HAVE to try this. Busy till next weekend, but after that I'm gonna take some of the Bialieys ripping chain I just bought, pull out my dremel etc and try this.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Rail-O-Matic said:


> The chain picture is exactly the way I have done them in the past, one thing I did notice is, the pink grinding wheel pictured has a square edge to it, if you profile the wheel, using another rougher stone, so it is the same shape as a file, you get a better cutting action,
> it has more of a slicing effect rather than a riving effect when the tooth gullett is more rounded, also if you make the side cutters, or what they become once you have taken off the top chisel, try to leave them so they are slightly wider at the front cutting edge, a wedge shape if viewed from above, and they will stay sharper for longer and give a better clearing cut.



The square wheel was only used on the rakers.

Thanks for the tip on the scoring teeth.


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## smithie55

*Thanks Aggiewood the fruits of AS*

Just wanted to say thanks to Aggie for putting up a post about making your own ripping chain.
Since this post first came up I bought a dye grinder and my local Stihl dealer will sell me full comp chisel 3/8 .50 for 15 cents a link. 
So I am now making my own milling chain.
I was going to post some pics but my camera is piece o @@$%^&*!!!
Merry Christmas


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## Alaska Livin

*Ripping Chain Clarification*

I purchased a Sthil 075 with a AK Mill II and the saw came with a modified ripping chain as desrtibed in this writeup as well as a regular chain. The Baileys ripping chain is not a skip tooth chain but is ground at 10*. The question I have is what's the purpose of making the chain a skip tooth. I would think that more cutting surface would work better and faster. I have not run the mill yet but plan on it the end of the month and I want two ripping chains. Can I have the regular chain ground at the 10* without grinding the tops off? I am new to milling and want to be as efficent as possiable.


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## CaseyForrest

Alaska Livin said:


> I purchased a Sthil 075 with a AK Mill II and the saw came with a modified ripping chain as desrtibed in this writeup as well as a regular chain. The Baileys ripping chain is not a skip tooth chain but is ground at 10*. The question I have is what's the purpose of making the chain a skip tooth. I would think that more cutting surface would work better and faster. I have not run the mill yet but plan on it the end of the month and I want two ripping chains. Can I have the regular chain ground at the 10* without grinding the tops off? I am new to milling and want to be as efficent as possiable.




Yes you can do that. Its also a bit cheaper to by a semi-chisel chain and sharpen at 10 or 5 with subsequent sharpenings.


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## oldsaw

Alaska Livin said:


> I purchased a Sthil 075 with a AK Mill II and the saw came with a modified ripping chain as desrtibed in this writeup as well as a regular chain. The Baileys ripping chain is not a skip tooth chain but is ground at 10*. The question I have is what's the purpose of making the chain a skip tooth. I would think that more cutting surface would work better and faster. I have not run the mill yet but plan on it the end of the month and I want two ripping chains. Can I have the regular chain ground at the 10* without grinding the tops off? I am new to milling and want to be as efficent as possiable.



Yep, that's what I often do, although Bailey's "Woodsman Pro" rip chain is a good value at 20 cents a link. Been very happy with it.

Mark


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## BobL

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Wow, it's hard to believe it's been a month since I did this. Still no saw. I'm hoping this week.



AggieWB, what was your final verdict on your home made ripping chain? Did you ever stack it up against any other chain, and if so what was your conclusion?

Thanks and Cheers


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## BlueRider

*rakers should all be the same*

Kind of hard to tell from the pics on the Grandberg web site but the height of all the depth rakers should be the same distance as measured from the bar. the defferent heights of slicers and chippers is acomplished by the length of the tooth. The easiest way to understand this is to think of it in extremes. if every other pair of rakers was .125 higher and to simplify things suppose all the teeth are set at .030 above their respective rakers. it is easy to see that the teeth with the shorter rakers will not touch the bottom of the kerf nor will they even take a shaving. 

the purpose of the slicers is to cut deeper than the chippers but to do this you have to think in terms of distance from the bar with the rakers all at the same height. then grind the chippers so they are shorter than the slicers.

for what its worth I have two grandberg ripping chains and several oregon ripping chains and i don't think it is worth the extra sharpening time to run the grandberg chain. of cource if I had a nice grinder like AW I might see things differently.


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## BobL

BlueRider said:


> the purpose of the slicers is to cut deeper than the chippers but to do this you have to think in terms of distance from the bar with the rakers all at the same height. then grind the chippers so they are shorter than the slicers.


Distance from the bar is not the only factor. Because the depth gauge on the slicing cutter is set at 40"', my guess is when the slicing tooth contacts the timber the whole tooth rotates slightly up off the bar by 10"' allowing it to cut deeper. If this is true then maybe these links should show a bit more wear on the ties just under the slicing tooth? 



BlueRider said:


> for what its worth I have two grandberg ripping chains and several oregon ripping chains and i don't think it is worth the extra sharpening time to run the grandberg chain. of cource if I had a nice grinder like AW I might see things differently.


I presume the extra sharpening time required is for the slicers? They don't look like they would take a lot of time? 

Cheers


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## BlueRider

The extra time in sharpening is due to me only having a hand file jig and the grandberg chain requires 4 different set ups rather than the standard 2. also requires you to check the tooth with dial calipers and getting the tooth length that coresponds with the appropriate difference in raker height is tedious, this is only done once then i use the dial calipers.

Thats about as clear as mud. the first step in had sharpening the chain is guessing at the correct amount to take off of the slicers. then establish how much to remove from all the rakers and then take them down. go back and sharpen half the slicers, switch the angle and do the other half of the slicers. Change the angle for the chippers and take a couple passes and check the height, remebering that it is different from that of the slicers. take a few more passes and check again, a couple more, a couple more...now check the length of the tooth with dial calipers and sharpen the rest of the chippers using this measurement. don't forget to change the angle for the other half of the chippers. 

I used to have a shop that did a damn fine job on the grandberg chain but since I moved I have yet to find a decent shop. I like to do my own (non grandberg) as I think I am more acurate but I also like to have a shop available when I get too backed up.


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## BobL

BlueRider said:


> .
> .
> .
> Thats about as clear as mud.
> .
> .
> .



OK - I get it. Thanks for the reply.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Final verdict...

Not worth the trouble IMO. When it's sharp and tuned perfectly it does cut much faster than regular 3/8" ripping chain, but it goes south quickly after a cut or two. Also, I found that the cut must be started absolutely perfectly because it's impossible to correct the kerf once started. Several times I had a cut wander out of line and had to switch to a regular chain to correct it.

I use .325 for everything 44" and shorter now and it cut nearly as fast as the Granberg style in my tests. I also lasts longer, cuts smoother and takes less time to sharpen.


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## timberwolf

I found the gangberg style chain ripped cedar well. Anyone try a square grind for ripping?


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## BobL

timberwolf said:


> I found the gangberg style chain ripped cedar well. Anyone try a square grind for ripping?



I'm using square on BIL mill (I have two chains). I haven't tried any other chains with this rig so I can't compare. I'm surprised how sharp it has stayed even on the Aussie hardwoods - I would thing the cutter points would at least dull after one log. I have been touching the chains up between logs where they needed it our not just to practice my square grind filing technique.

Filing is not as bad as I thought it would be but it's tricky not to keep pushing down too hard which ends up creating the tip notch down too far. 

Last week I cut right through a 4" nail (I did not even notice it at the time!) and it made a mess of 3 of the cutters and they will need at least 1/8" taken off them to recover the tips. its odd how only 3 were badly affected (they are also not consecutive! cutters), about 6 more have noticeable damage (ie the tip point is very slightly rounded and blue) and the rest look as they normally do after milling a log, ie a slight edge dullness. I can't work out how that happened, its like most of the cutters never even touched that nail!

As I only have hand files this is going to be a real patience tester to fix. At some stage I was going to convert this chain to round filing and maybe now is it. Then maybe I will be able to compare round verus square?

Cheers


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## aquan8tor

timberwolf said:


> I found the gangberg style chain ripped cedar well. Anyone try a square grind for ripping?






I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times on AS, but is there a good online HOW-TO for square ground chain?? I bought the Northern 511A copy and would like to maybe try.


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## BobL

aquan8tor said:


> I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times on AS, but is there a good online HOW-TO for square ground chain?? I bought the Northern 511A copy and would like to maybe try.



I have not been sharpening these chains for too long but I will share with you what I have found out.

Have you seen the Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual?
There are 3 pages dedicated to square ground in that manual that are pretty useful. 

There appear to be two types of square ground cutters, one that is L shaped and has two faces of the cutter (like the stihl) and one that has 3 (like the Oregon), so make sure you have the right file for the chain.

My chains are stihl and have the 2 main filing angles marked on the cutters which helps quite a bit.

I'm not sure if you know but it's better to file the the teeth backwards. ie "down", "across", and "sideways" back along the chain. 

Getting enough of the "sideways" and controlling the amount of downwards bit is the hardest bit and can lead to the a cutter edge notch dropping down below where it should be. 







To reduce this problem one really needs a rig or jig to firmly hold the chain in place so that enough sideways force can be applied without the chain lifting up off the bar. I hold mine by the drive links in a hand saw vice but even then the drive links can still slip out, so I add a clamp to hold the chain down while I'm filing. It's a PITA to keep moving the clamp so I'm thinking a special jig that fits into a metal working vice might be in order.

Clearing the gullet is not that easy without having the file slip and hit the cutter edge - its a matter of maintaining a firm downwards and sideway force.

The rest, eg setting the depth guages, is pretty much standard chain stuff.

I hope this helps.

Cheers.


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