# Arborist and protesters



## CaveSaw (Feb 19, 2008)

I thought folks might find this interesting. Probably not the typical day for an arborist.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/19/BA4BV52CK.DTL&tsp=1

Background--Protesters don't want these oaks cut down to make room for an expansion of athletic facilities next to a stadium in Berkeley. They have been tree-sitting for about a year now. They are nice trees but the oaks in question were planted by the university after the stadium was built. So they're old, but not old growth.


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## lxt (Feb 19, 2008)

Remove 100 trees for an athletic stadium that the tax payers will foot the bill for!!

that is a shame, anything for athletes!!! if it will bring in money they dont care...... 

I honestly think the Arborists should of been called in to determine if the Trees needing removed is warranted!!! I think their priorities are a little messed up, this is in CA? right, where smog & engine emmissions & other pollutants are the main complaint, I read on here where(CA) wanted to sue the auto makers for emmission pollution.........

Yeah nothing like removing 100 of the only things that can help with that problem!!!!


LXT............


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## treeseer (Feb 19, 2008)

Thanks for posting the update. I was out there in Dec 2006 for the ASCA conference in Napa, and visited the grove. Nice trees, taking up very little room on the edge of a big, barren athletic area.

Glad I was not around when that bucket fell.:spam:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 20, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Glad I was not around when that bucket fell.:spam:



Whoo yeah!

Ironic that it is Berkley where this protest is taking place, I'd'a thunk it'd be hugger's haven.


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## Festus Haggen (Feb 20, 2008)

I'd just ask them where the wood for their platforms came from? 


Intimidated and harrassed? Man, they should try that nonsense here. Just loose a pack of rabid coons in the grove, they'll move.


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## woodchux (Feb 20, 2008)

I would just cut out the notch and then start on the backcut....

I bet the hippies would be rappelling down faster than that bucket fell.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 20, 2008)

A friend sent me an article about this situation this past summer. For a while they were protesting NAKED. I would imagine it included lots of hairy legs and armpits, not to mention what the hippy men must've looked like.


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## treeseer (Feb 20, 2008)

Disagree with them if you want to, but they are bucking the tide and advocating for tree value, something arborists should be able to relate to.

Speaking of rabid coons, that sounds like the wannabee athletic boosters. You could fit their brains inside a jockstrap, but they feed this mania for bigger facilities with skyboxes so they can drink scotch there and feel like bigshots. 

Top of the world, Ma!  

The stadiums only get used for a few hours per year, while the trees are functioning for everyone, 24/7/365.


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## moray (Feb 20, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> ...For a while they were protesting NAKED. I would imagine it included lots of hairy legs and armpits, not to mention what the hippy men must've looked like.



OTG, I'm going to have to retract the nice comment I made about you a few days ago! Why are you passing judgment on these people, lumping them in a category you probably don't understand, and calling them names? For shame.

UC Berkeley is a huge place with more than 25,000 students, dozens of buildings, many properties, and a generally huge footprint in a city of 100,000. Not surprisingly, projects and policies that suit the University aren't always in line with the interests of the city's residents. While I don't know the merits of the controversy in question, the University's plan to cut down 100 oak trees would obviously provoke a reaction in a place like Berkeley. And being Berkeley, the protest will be colorful and inventive, like people living in trees. This is just normal hardball back there.


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## clearance (Feb 20, 2008)

I am not a police lover, but send them in, clubs swinging, dogs biting. I have had it with mutts who snivel about tree removal, it ain't your tree, so flock off. Been there enough, the same people who cry about you cutting down trees around powerlines are the same ones who cry when some p.o.s. tree they saved rips the line down and they are in the dark.

Maybe these trees shouldn't be cut down, perhaps the stadium shouldn't be built, but the permits are approved, suck it up.


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## Bermie (Feb 20, 2008)

Protest where protest is due...I don't know the situation or what, but can see points for both sides.
Maybe they can plant more trees to offset the ones they remove...I dunno...

BUT protest can be effective, just last year over here the Gummint decided that we are going to need a new hospital by 2012 and that the most cost effective place to build it (but not doing phased rebuild on site) was next door on 10 acres of the BOTANICAL GARDENS!! Bulldozing 100 year old trees, display houses and collections!!!! The Minister of Health told us to 'get over it' and we (the general taxpaying population of Bermuda, rich, poor, black white, locals, expats) REFUSED! There were town hall meetings, activities in the gardens, the talk shows were hopping, people put green banners on their cars...it worked, the Gummint backed down.

But hey, I play hockey on an artificial surface in a stadium (teensy by your standards) that took up some open space to build so...no-one is snow white in every situation.


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## treeseer (Feb 20, 2008)

Bermie said:


> BUT protest can be effective, ...it worked, the Gummint backed down.


You guys rock, Fiona! Trees cannot talk, so we gotta talk double!


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## oldirty (Feb 20, 2008)

moray said:


> OTG, I'm going to have to retract the nice comment I made about you a few days ago! Why are you passing judgment on these people, lumping them in a category you probably don't understand, and calling them names? For shame.
> 
> UC Berkeley is a huge place with more than 25,000 students, dozens of buildings, many properties, and a generally huge footprint in a city of 100,000. Not surprisingly, projects and policies that suit the University aren't always in line with the interests of the city's residents. While I don't know the merits of the controversy in question, the University's plan to cut down 100 oak trees would obviously provoke a reaction in a place like Berkeley. And being Berkeley, the protest will be colorful and inventive, like people living in trees. This is just normal hardball back there.





hey O i think your description of this guys girlfriend really offended him.


serious question for you. do you give a rats ass about his feelings? lol


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## Themadd1 (Feb 21, 2008)

I know a lot of people who were tree sitters in the Portland area. I went out there to visit my sister and was walking through an open market when some dirty guy comes up to me. I thought he was a bum but turned out to be an old friend from high school. He was flat broke and living on the street until he could get a ride back out to the old growth forest where they were sitting.

I have to give these people some respect for putting themselves out there for the criticism and hard times they put themselves through to keep something important in their community. 

Berkeley has always been a hub of civil disobedience and even after years of abuse people still manage to do what they do. You can knock them but I have to say they do more than most of us in trying to keep our governments in check. 

I think most of us got into this line of work for the money but a lot of us got into this line of work because we dont like seeing people destroy our environment and f'up the trees. Even those of you on the government end of the business hate seeing people f' up your trees. 

If you dont have respect for what you do then what do you have? Big money=bad ethics in most cases. 

maybe they should put some land aside and start planting more trees to compensate for the loss of these oaks? That might help move the process along to lower the animosity of creating a new building in someones neighborhood.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 21, 2008)

moray said:


> OTG, I'm going to have to retract the nice comment I made about you a few days ago! Why are you passing judgment on these people, lumping them in a category you probably don't understand, and calling them names? For shame.




I am so ashamed I don't know how I'll ever live with myself:jester: 

For the record, I have tons of experience with situations just like this, and have been on both sides of the arguement.

As far as me calling them names, Its my right as an american to express my opinion. Are you trying to supress my civil liberties?


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 21, 2008)

oldirty said:


> hey O i think your description of this guys girlfriend really offended him.
> 
> 
> serious question for you. do you give a rats ass about his feelings? lol



Maine. 'nuff said


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## farmer (Feb 21, 2008)

I live in a small town. NY state came in and said you need a wider main st. and all these nice old trees have to go. The people said no and the state backed down. Stupid decisions even when approved don't necessarily have to be the last word. I don't reall know details of this case, but neither do the people saying get the h out of the way and bring in the dogs. Have a little broader vision why don't you?


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## moray (Feb 21, 2008)

Themadd1 said:


> I have to give these people some respect for putting themselves out there for the criticism and hard times they put themselves through to keep something important in their community.



Nice comments, Themadd1. It's good to see some civil discourse here now and then to counter the roving population of attack dogs on AS. So, to paraphrase you, I give people a lot of respect for exposing themselves to criticism and attack here, but responding in a measured and civil way. It is all too easy (and gratifying, I admit!) to short-circuit the higher brain centers and resort to name-calling and personal attack. It's a lotta fun. But it detracts from the quality of AS that so many people think it's cool to do it here.


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## tree MDS (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm all for the trees and all, however, bustin on those dirty hippies is just too much fun. I'm with Clearance on this, dogs and clubs- after bean bag knocking em out ! And what about the dreads and that friggin petulie oil or whatever ? Hope the poor dogs dont get sick ! I would've loved to be the guy cuttin ropes and kickin that nasty a$$ed :greenchainsaw: crap bucket off ! LOL.


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## moray (Feb 21, 2008)

*as I was saying*

Woof woof!


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## tree MDS (Feb 21, 2008)

Yea, woof ! woof ! Speaking of the trees, I'll bet they're not too happy choking on all that stank anyway, probably cant breathe- gone into defense mode, "just cut me". LOL


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 21, 2008)

moray said:


> It is all too easy (and gratifying, I admit!) to short-circuit the higher brain centers and resort to name-calling and personal attack.



That explains why you called me out for my original post in this thread!

FWIW I used the word "hippy" as a description, not intended to be derogatory.


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## moray (Feb 21, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> That explains why you called me out for my original post in this thread!
> 
> FWIW I used the word "hippy" as a description, not intended to be derogatory.



Nicely put, OTG. I still like you.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 21, 2008)

For the time being I will still consider you a hypocrite.


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## oldirty (Feb 21, 2008)

moray said:


> . But it detracts from the quality of AS that so many people think it's cool to do it here.





oh i dont know moray. just because youre a sick geek doesnt mean the rest of us cant have fun.


loosen up pal.


how long is your hair anyway?


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## (WLL) (Feb 21, 2008)

*cut the friggin trees down, put all the survivor's in jail, and chip the rest of the chit!!*


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## czar800 (Feb 21, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> I'm all for the trees and all, however, bustin on those dirty hippies is just too much fun. I'm with Clearance on this, dogs and clubs- after bean bag knocking em out ! And what about the dreads and that friggin petulie oil or whatever ? Hope the poor dogs dont get sick ! I would've loved to be the guy cuttin ropes and kickin that nasty a$$ed :greenchainsaw: crap bucket off ! LOL.



+1 Me too!!!


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## moray (Feb 21, 2008)

oldirty said:


> ...how long is your hair anyway?



Huh? What hair?


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## Thillmaine (Feb 21, 2008)

*Mainers*

Again I will state this..easy on us Mainers...I am no hippy either


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## DonnyO (Feb 21, 2008)

Thillmaine said:


> Again I will state this..easy on us Mainers...I am no hippy either




watcha gonna do? get the rest of the state...AKA your cousins.... to invade us???? Lighten up dude you live here now, you managed to escape:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeseer (Feb 21, 2008)

It's 2008; hippie pretty much died 40 years ago, when most of you were swimming around in a scrotum, or yo momma was. :censored: 

what's the slang for New England Redneck?  

Thanks, moray, for acting human.


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## DonnyO (Feb 21, 2008)

treeseer said:


> what's the slang for New England Redneck?
> .




MAINER!


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## oldirty (Feb 21, 2008)

treeseer said:


> It's 2008; hippie pretty much died 40 years ago, when most of you were swimming around in a scrotum, or yo momma was. :censored:
> 
> what's the slang for New England Redneck?
> 
> Thanks, moray, for acting human.



other than "knucklehead" there is no term for redneck up this way man. lol


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 22, 2008)

treeseer said:


> It's 2008; hippie pretty much died 40 years ago, when most of you were swimming around in a scrotum, or yo momma was. :censored:
> 
> what's the slang for New England Redneck?
> 
> Thanks, moray, for acting human.



I gotta disagree with this completely. Ask a 15 year old what a hippy is and they'll be able to tell you. Ask someone to describe a hippie, long hair, tye die, and protests will be mentioned.

As for thanking moray, why THANK the guy who started the flamewar in the first place????


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## Bigus Termitius (Feb 22, 2008)

Half a dozen sitters left....100 trees. Hmmmm. I have a plan.

These guys just don't strike me as great pillars of community concern, rather otherwise homeless drop outs with nothing better to do, and nowhere else quite as nice and scenic to smoke dope and drop acid...er I meant live. I meant live, really I did, I don't know _where_ that came from. What I should have said was 'eat peas and rice.'

I'll bet these characters will be bummin' if they actually do save the trees. They'll claim victory alright, no question, but deep down there will be fear, loathing, and despair coupled closely with the question....

Now what?



How would you like to be that security guard BTW? I would flat die of boredom!!

Personally, I'd hate to see such a nice grove go to waste for a glorified play ground, but I don't think that this is a true representation of community outcry. Nevertheless, we have to have a fair balance between expansion and stewardship.

I really like the idea of planting some trees somewhere to offset. Would these sitters show up on work day? Everyday? Beyond the opportunity for a photo op? When the media attention is gone, would they still be planting because they_ really _care?

I have my doubts.


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## 2FatGuys (Feb 22, 2008)

I have always thought that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

I have yet to see any article praising the good works being done by these "sitters". There is nothing positive to be said about what they are doing, other than getting attention and delaying a legal process. 

These people are nothing more than tresspassers that the government is afraid of confronting. If these vagrants (yes.... I DID say that) were sleeping in the stairways of the classroom buildings (university property, just like the trees), they would be arrested. If they took up residence on the chancelors front lawn, they would be removed immediately. Because they are in trees, everyone is afraid of upsetting them.

Pay for my flight and expenses (may include a need for police protection) and give me a campus work order for removal... I'll have the trees cleaned out, cut down, and hauled off in short order.


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## treeseer (Feb 22, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> Ask a 15 year old what a hippy is and they'll be able to tell you. Ask someone to describe a hippie, long hair, tye die, and protests will be mentioned.


That's the surface, not the soul. Having the willingness to protest and pursue alternatives, that was the heart of the movement. It was not about drugs at first.If you're under 55, you have no way of knowing this--you had to be there. 


> As for thanking moray, why THANK the guy who started the flamewar in the first place????


If that's true, sorry--I didn't see the whole thread


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## moray (Feb 22, 2008)

*Having it both ways*



OTG BOSTON said:


> ...As for thanking moray, why THANK the guy who started the flamewar in the first place????



Oh come off it, OTG! When I publicly praised you for standing up for good discourse, you liked it enough to give me a rep point for it (thanks). Then, when you backslide on precisely the same issue, and I publicly (and very mildly) criticize you for it, suddenly I am starting a flame war?

The issue, lest we forget, is the practice attaching a group label to someone, and then beating up on them because of their purported membership in the group, not for anything they actually said or did. In the original instance, for which you willingly took credit, the group membership had to do with credentials, and whether it was proper to discount the statements of an individual lacking certain credentials. You firmly said no. Bravo.

But perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps there was no broader principle at stake for you when you made what I took to be a principled stand. Because in this thread, even though the labels and clearly pejorative descriptions were flying thick and fast, you and several others all saw fit to pile on the Berkeley protesters. None of you produced even one lonely little fact relevant to the actual case. And when some of your buddies felt that warm surge of lynch-mob fever, they started attacking me as well, with the same empty posturing and name calling. I stand by my description of this as pack behavior, with apologies to my canine friends for whom it is an unfair comparison.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 22, 2008)

*compare apples to elephants*

Whatever. I don't use this forum to make political or moral statements about anything. I don't give a rats azz about hippies, or trees 3000 miles away, or if you like me or not.

I implied that hippie type woman are excessively hairy because that has been my experience. Not a great stretch based on pics of hairy dudes in tye dye calling themselves retarted names like "sky". I didn't "pile on" at all. It was one benign, off the cuff remark. You on the other hand called me out directly because you interpreted my implications a certain way and disagreed. Not really a civilized way to handle an arguement. Pretty f'd up actually. I do regret the rep point I gave you, not because I didn't mean it at the time, but because I can't neg rep you now. Your posts in this thread are quite ridiculous, not to mention filled with lies.


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## Themadd1 (Feb 22, 2008)

fecrousejr - You statements are not quite true in terms of how this happened or why there are people sitting in the trees. 

Berkeley is the hub in the United States during the 60's revolution for doing exactly what you said they would get arrested for in the first place. 

Civil disobedience, like this situation, have done a lot of good during the past century. You things like, equal rights for minorities including blacks, women, etc. 

You just dont understand the situation and all you are doing is continuing the ruse that these people are just dirty hippies squatting because they are bored.

Like TreeCo said... Unless you were there or old enough you just dont get it.

Most of these "Dirty hippies have gone on to become congressmen/women, lawyers, environmentalists, senators, etc. They were usually college students that found certain things to be against what we call freedom in the United States. 

Good luck with whatever you do, try to look at things with an open mind before you jump on the bandwagon.


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## treeseer (Feb 22, 2008)

Themadd1 said:


> Most of these "Dirty hippies have gone on to become congressmen/women, lawyers, environmentalists, senators, etc."


And consulting arborists. 

"Pay for my flight and expenses... I'll have the trees cleaned out, cut down, and hauled off in short order."

Cut first and ask questions later, eh? :monkey: 

Brother crouse, my fellow tarheel--I see evidence of this mindset at work all around me. Thanks to this approach, in ten years Raleigh will be like Atlanta, in 30, like Cleveland.


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## 2FatGuys (Feb 22, 2008)

*Simmer down now... Simmer down...*

Themadd1 & Treeseer - Guys... I'm not jumping on ANY bandwagon. Read my profile and you will see that I am an architectural project manager 4 out of 7 days a week. I specialize in construction administration, code interpretation and enforcement, and arbitration. That pays the bills so that I can do what I LOVE the other 3 days... tree work. 

My comments are specificaly from a legal and "public responsibility" perspective. I agree that there is a proper place and time to air one's grievances against planned changes in a community, or in a society as a whole. However, the "tactics" being exercised in this example are nothing short of domestic terrorism. These people are holding a legal landowner hostage, preventing them from using their own landholdings as the see fit. This is part of the basis for the formation of our country - private property rights. In this process, they have put the owners of the property (in this case the taxpayers) at a loss for the use of their land. And in this case, the taxpayers are also having to foot the bill of security and sanitation.

Legally, what they are doing is, simply put, tresspassing. They have no legal right to the homesteading they are doing. During this exercise, they have put the public health at risk by storing human fecal matter in a way that meets no health codes. I was always taught that one person's freedoms end where another person's begin. These people, by costing the taxpayer money for their own agenda, have crossed the line of freedom.

Contrary to how you took my comment about cutting the trees, I don't cut for the sake of cutting. I was only offering to help enforce the legal process that has already transpired in this case. The design team and owner have been through their public comment sessions. They have complied with the regulations and requirements placed on them by the jurisdictions having authority over their proposed plans.

Tree - I actually have a HUGE respect for the development process in Raleigh. I've done several projects in the area and the arborculture staff with the city is top notch in enforcing tree retention and replacement. There is a huge amount of development going on in that area. They are doing MUCH better than the other major cities in our state. OH... and FYI... I've lived here all my life but will NEVER accept the title of "tarheel"! I'm a "WoofPacker" through and through.


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## Fuzly (Feb 22, 2008)

Themadd1 said:


> Like TreeCo said... Unless you were there or old enough you just dont get it.
> 
> Most of these "Dirty hippies have gone on to become congressmen/women, lawyers, environmentalists, senators, etc. They were usually college students that found certain things to be against what we call freedom in the United States.



I think one is running for President, isn't she? 

I have experienced some protests in my area in the past few years, anti-mining, anti-logging, and a pro-dope smoking fest. They are mostly college students that really "don't get it". What I mean is they aren't as dedicated as the "original" hippies. Being a hippie is cool until the Sheriff's Department shows up then it's "call Mom & Dad for bail money" time and go home to Madison.

My personal opinion-take a bath, lay off the dope, and graduate so they can get a job and be productive-maybe even see the light and become conservatives. 

They are smelly and annoying, but I support their right to express themselves, just like I express my thoughts and opinions. (Star Spangled Banner playing in the distance)


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## treeseer (Feb 23, 2008)

fecrousejr said:


> the city is top notch in enforcing tree retention and replacement. They are doing MUCH better than the other major cities in our state.


Well that says zilch for those other cities. Understand that we are looking at the process from opposite perspectives. I do acknowledge there are good people there making good efforts. But many times they are like that protester in Tienanmen Square, hlding a flower in front of a tank.


> I'm a "WoofPacker" through and through.


And I bleed dark Blue for the Devils. pm me next time you're in the Triangle. We can have a cold one and climb a tree--not in that order, of course.

Fuz, it sounds like protests in WI have really gone downhill. I remember wearing a scuba suit at a Teddy Kennedy rally in Madtown, waving a "What about Mary Jo" sign.
Those were the days, my friend, I wish they'd never end... 
o and thanks dan but it don't matter.


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## AxeKnot (Feb 23, 2008)

CaveSaw said:


> Background--Protesters don't want these oaks cut down to make room for an expansion of athletic facilities next to a stadium in Berkeley.



I support the protesters any day of the week over a bunch of steroid ingesting, blood doping, pillpopping sham atheletes! 

Marian Jones was once held up as the new hope of athletics! ha ha She was riddled with illegal drugs when she won all those gold medals. Justin Gatlin and the rest of these phoney idiots can get lost - long live the trees!


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## Bigus Termitius (Feb 23, 2008)

I believe that the cream of the "dirty hippies squatting" crop have since already moved on to finish their homework, entertain political pursuits, and enjoy indoor plumbing.


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## D Mc (Feb 23, 2008)

treeseer said:


> I remember wearing a scuba suit at a Teddy Kennedy rally in Madtown, waving a "What about Mary Jo" sign.



Treeseer, Come on now, be honest. Do you actually remember? or do you just have the picture? :hmm3grin2orange: 

D and S Mc


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## treeseer (Feb 23, 2008)

D Mc said:


> Treeseer, Come on now, be honest. Do you actually remember?


Well it is a little fuzzy, but I do recall it; it was a rare protest against a liberal politician. Picketing the math building for doing research to help the vietnam war, that memory's more vivid. some idiots blew it up a few weeks later. Ho, ho, ho chi minh...

If the last grove of trees (and the ones at berkeley are the last in that part of campus) were about to get the ax to make room for more jock play, for sure I'd've been up em. Legal processes are certainly to be respected, but civil disobedience is a time-honored tradition.

Think Gandhi and ML King. Courage in peaceful action.


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## moray (Feb 23, 2008)

treeseer said:


> ...Think Gandhi and ML King. Courage in peaceful action.



Think the underground railroad. I would have been out at the docks trying to scuttle those slave ships before they could leave for Africa.

You guys bring tears to my eyes dredging up memories of the 60's. Those WERE the days!


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## smokechase II (Feb 23, 2008)

*Plan ahead*

*"Half a dozen sitters left....100 trees. Hmmmm. I have a plan."*

I like it.



Really, the best plan (aka sink the slave ships before the underground railroad is needed), is for Universitys to not plant any trees.

Trees cause problems.


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## oldirty (Feb 23, 2008)

treeseer said:


> If the last grove of trees (and the ones at berkeley are the last in that part of campus) were about to get the ax to make room for more jock play, for sure I'd've been up em. Legal processes are certainly to be respected, but civil disobedience is a time-honored tradition.
> 
> Think Gandhi and ML King. Courage in peaceful action.





hey seer. how much money do you think that the school has generated in its name through the "jock play"?

i bet you have never thrown a game winning TD pass or maybe sunk both ends of a one and one, down one to win a game. or thrown a no hitter. 
those highs are free but earned through effort and dedication. and also a talent that not many people possess. therefore you, not having much athletic talent, would be against an idea like making a bigger facility for athletes. even at the cost of a few trees, a renewable source.

you see meaningless tree death while i see cramped lockerrooms, out dated shower/bathrooms, and a not up to par weightroom for a multisport division1 athletic program.

those jocks are bringing in an a pretty good amount of money to the school that i dont think the chess team or botany club or even the band can bring in.

whatever though.


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## Bigus Termitius (Feb 23, 2008)

I got it! :monkey: 

Can we get the athletes to plant offset trees since no one else looks like they are really up to it, physically, mentally, or emotionally?


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## tree MDS (Feb 23, 2008)

Shush... dont get moray all turned on with too much talk of cramped male locker rooms ! LOL ! yeah, thats right I said it and I'm proud of it - so what ! Man its boring around here lately, I even tried to start a thead on bucket trucks but that fizzled quickly, after some very strong initial response, I was dissapointed. It seems all anyone wants to talk about is dirty hippies or trees pissin on them ! Go figure.


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## beowulf343 (Feb 23, 2008)

Bermie said:


> Protest where protest is due...I don't know the situation or what, but can see points for both sides.
> Maybe they can plant more trees to offset the ones they remove...I dunno...
> 
> BUT protest can be effective, just last year over here the Gummint decided that we are going to need a new hospital by 2012 and that the most cost effective place to build it (but not doing phased rebuild on site) was next door on 10 acres of the BOTANICAL GARDENS!! Bulldozing 100 year old trees, display houses and collections!!!! The Minister of Health told us to 'get over it' and we (the general taxpaying population of Bermuda, rich, poor, black white, locals, expats) REFUSED! There were town hall meetings, activities in the gardens, the talk shows were hopping, people put green banners on their cars...it worked, the Gummint backed down.
> ...



So, is the hospital going up somewhere else, or is tree health more important that advanced medical care for humans?


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## senechal (Feb 23, 2008)

On a similar note... Municipality put a price on a tree in the path of development, and the community rallied for the funds.. $350,000 worth.
They managed to do it while maintaining basic hygiene and without any major theatrics. At the same time, think of all the mature trees you could spade for 350 grand...

http://www.halton.ca/News/MediaShow.cfm?MediaID=2006-12-21-08-42-34

Up the road in Guelph are an eco-terrorist sect that have been racking up a bunch of arson jobs on development housing projects. Their message is not finding much of a fanbase, and they give Guelph's overwhelming hippy population a bad name. 

Oh yeah, while I'm at it, environmental activists with rock climbing equipment including engineered fabrics and alloys, are widely known to be very damaging to the environment to produce. I'd of called them on it -- A real repulsive eco-activist would have free-climbed it!


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## Fuzly (Feb 24, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Fuz, it sounds like protests in WI have really gone downhill. I remember wearing a scuba suit at a Teddy Kennedy rally in Madtown, waving a "What about Mary Jo" sign.
> Those were the days, my friend, I wish they'd never end...



Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Heck, I would go to something like that just for entertainment (and because it was Teddy).

State Street on a Satuday night was quite an experience for this young lad from the Wisconsin Northwoods. Quite a culture shock, but Madtown is FUN!


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## DonnyO (Feb 24, 2008)

oldirty said:


> hey seer. how much money do you think that the school has generated in its name through the "jock play"?
> 
> i bet you have never thrown a game winning TD pass or maybe sunk both ends of a one and one, down one to win a game. or thrown a no hitter.
> those highs are free but earned through effort and dedication. and also a talent that not many people possess. therefore you, not having much athletic talent, would be against an idea like making a bigger facility for athletes. even at the cost of a few trees, a renewable source.
> ...



Amen bro! and how many of these anti-jock types actually have the stones and athletic ability to be top notch climbers. 

F-in hipppy drug using losers


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## TimberMcPherson (Feb 24, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> So, is the hospital going up somewhere else, or is tree health more important that advanced medical care for humans?



In my book, the trees would win, as they are a feature of area that cant be simply replaced with a flick of a checkbook. 
Its not like in the future people will look at that space when whatever building is due to come down and put in a tree. As our cities become more built up, good mature specimens are getting less common, they are the rare thing amongst the concrete and brick things. 
The health and well being of people is important, and the better health of people, who are around, travel past or live in areas of mature trees has been documented. 
All to often in this world developers or those who stand to turn a profit get to much say in how things are going to be. Whether its removal of a park to put in a mall or the invasion of a country to get its resources. Look at what was going to happen to Penn station in the 80's. 
A nation without protest isnt a nation, its north korea. Go the hippies! At the least people will have greater appreciation of the trees when they go.


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## treeseer (Feb 24, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> In my book, the trees would win, as they are a feature of area that cant be simply replaced with a flick of a checkbook.
> Its not like in the future people will look at that space when whatever building is due to come down and put in a tree. As our cities become more built up, good mature specimens are getting less common, they are the rare thing amongst the concrete and brick things.
> The health and well being of people is important, and the better health of people, who are around, travel past or live in areas of mature trees has been documented.
> All to often in this world developers or those who stand to turn a profit get to much say in how things are going to be. Whether its removal of a park to put in a mall or the invasion of a country to get its resources. Look at what was going to happen to Penn station in the 80's.
> A nation without protest isnt a nation, its north korea. Go the hippies! At the least people will have greater appreciation of the trees when they go.



Thanks, Timber--it's good to see that someone has some vision of the big picture.

Donny, I can climb as high and as wide as you can. But what in the world does that (or suspected drug use--put down your beer  before you answer!) have to do with anything?


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## Bigus Termitius (Feb 24, 2008)

*That's why they call it dope!*

I'm all for the right to protest....this isn't protest, it's half a dozen homeless space cadets pooping in public trees . !

Came across this open letter to the tree sitters from a local Berkley resident.
Nice to have some local input available.

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/466281874.html

I've read some more on this issue from various sources. The plans call for the removal of _*only 38 trees*_, not the entire grove. That ought to add some perspective to our little spat here.

Furthermore, the new construction is for an athletic training center, a four story underground parking garage providing 900 parking spaces, and new facilities for the university's law and business schools.


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## Bigus Termitius (Feb 24, 2008)

*That's why they call it dope...take two!*

Thought I would post the link to this article...also read the comments below for a good belly laugh or two. Peace Brothers!

http://chronicle.com/news/article/3418/berkeley-tree-sitter-falls-breaks-2-limbs

In all sobriety, I'm really glad no one has been killed yet.


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## farmer (Feb 24, 2008)

Robert Moses had a grand vision of cutting ny city into little pieces with expressways. People who live in a large city will understand. Eventually the people stood up and said no, this isn't what we the people want. The permits were all in place but the people shut it down and his grand plan was never completed. Also Grand Central Station was supposed to be leveled and new buildings and parking lots built. Permits issued- go ahead with it. People opposed leveling a magnificant historical , usable structure and the project was halted, the building renovated, and it is still in use today. Don't know all the details in Berkley but just because some bigwigs think it is a worthwhile or justifiable project their vision is not always what the people want. This is a state university? If so the people own it?


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## DonnyO (Feb 24, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Donny, I can climb as high as you can.



I don't climb high, or get high at all actually........


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## kruege84 (Feb 24, 2008)

Q: What's red and orange and looks good on hippies?



A: FIRE!!

Sorry guys, but I really like that one.


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## Industry (Feb 24, 2008)

kruege84 said:


> Q: What's red and orange and looks good on hippies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## moray (Feb 25, 2008)

*Filthy Schoolchildren Stop Tree Removal!*

There's a little town down the road from me with a huge pine tree on the main drag. I made an admiring comment about it to my arborist buddy a few months ago and he told me that it had been scheduled for removal about 15 years ago as the town coucil considered it to be a hazard. When the big out-of-town tree company showed up with a crane on removal day, they found a ring of schoolchildren, arms locked, surrounding the tree! God's truth! (How the children got organized to do this I have no idea--I only know the high points of the story). Naturally the tree company was sorely pissed, as money was pouring down the drain while personnel and big equipment stood around doing nothing. But ultimately they had little choice but to turn around and go home.

This quickly became a big local story, with lots of townspeople getting involved, the newpaper running stories, and so on. A local lawyer volunteered his services to help the preservation cause, and eventually the town reconsidered and hired several people, including my buddy, to reassess the situation. The arborists examined the tree from top to bottom, and even dug a big hole in the street to check the root zone. They recommended removing the top and several limbs to reduce weight and wind load.







The tree company came back that winter to carry out the revised work order (presumably they were compensated for the aborted first day) and my buddy was on hand to watch and snap photos. I scanned in the above photo, and slightly brightened the area near the base so you can see the trunk better. When I have occasion to visit the town, I always notice the tree. Even without the top it is about 80 feet tall, and it measures about 4.5 ft DBH. I love that tree even more now that I know its cool story.


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## adam (Feb 25, 2008)

There is something extremely disturbing in every removel of healthy, large tree, no matter how legal the removal is. Some of the trees that I've cut down will haunt me for the rest of my life.


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## kruege84 (Feb 25, 2008)

adam said:


> There is something extremely disturbing in every removel of healthy, large tree, no matter how legal the removal is. Some of the trees that I've cut down will haunt me for the rest of my life.



I completely agree. I'm no tree hugger, but removing mature trees without good reason?? A mystery to me.

I remember seeing a thread on here about a guy who wanted some mature oaks taken down in his yard. He said he didn't like raking the leaves. WTF?!?!


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## farmer (Feb 25, 2008)

If he only had a brainnnnn!

Remember only you can prevent stupid!!!


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2008)

White pine, topped out, surrounded by concrete? Never happen in my town. I wonder who accepts the liability? the schoolchildren?


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## moray (Feb 26, 2008)

It's not really surrounded--there is a big yard on one side. But I do wonder how there can be any significant roots under the street, and without roots under the street, what is keeping it from toppling away from the street?


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2008)

beyond that, it looks like the tree predates the sidewalk. That means that roots were removed to get a nice flat sidewalk. removal of roots=decay. My point being sometimes public outcry can have disasterous effects. I do not believe this to be the case in the Berkeley situation, but your example is classic 'public wins over good common sense'. IMEEO (in my educated and experienced opinion)


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## moray (Feb 26, 2008)

OTG BOSTON said:


> beyond that, it looks like the tree predates the sidewalk...



Good point about the sidewalk. The tree may even predate the town.

I'm no arborist and have zero competence to judge whether saving the tree was a wise course of action or not. While I love the tree, and am glad it still towers over an otherwise dreary block of buildings, one can only hope the arborists did a thorough job and came to a sound recommendation. I have no basis for an opinion.

I wish someone would comment on my question about tree roots going under the street. Are they there? Are they big and strong? Does putting salt on the streets in the winter kill 'em? Every time I see big trees in cities with about 4 square feet of open soil around the base, I wonder about the roots and the safety of the tree.


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## OTG BOSTON (Feb 26, 2008)

moray said:


> I wish someone would comment on my question about tree roots going under the street. Are they there? Are they big and strong? Does putting salt on the streets in the winter kill 'em? Every time I see big trees in cities with about 4 square feet of open soil around the base, I wonder about the roots and the safety of the tree.



Based on what appears to be granite curbing I would guess any roots that were growing on that side of the tree were cut, including anchor roots.

salt is bad for trees, especially white pine.

In Boston we require at least 24sq feet for a tree pit, 6x6 being optimum, 3x3 being more realistic/common.


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## pdqdl (Feb 26, 2008)

I'll bet the bucket-o-feces could have been lowered on a rope. I suspect that it was free-tossed into a safe landing area somewhat close to the protesters !

Does anyone know why they didn't just hire the arborist to start cutting down the tree ? If he was in the tree, why didn't they go to work and do the job ?

Eventually, the tree huggers would have run out of tree to hug.


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## moray (Feb 29, 2008)

When I returned my friend's photo album a couple of days ago, from which I had scanned the photo a few posts back, he surprised me by handing me a big folder full of newpaper clippings from 18 years ago. Included with the clippings were both arborists' reports to the town on the health of the tree.

As OTG BOSTON correctly surmised, there were no roots under the street. But the tree had not been condemned as a hazard, as I incorrectly reported, but was being removed because it was slightly in the way of converting that whole side of the street to diagonal parking, part of a downtown revitalization project.

Both arborists independently inspected the tree and declared it to be about 150 yrs. old, in excellent health, and still vigorous. There was one hollow section of trunk about 40 feet up, probably the result of a long-ago lightening strike; the 1/3 reduction in the tree's height was meant to greatly reduce any wind load on that section.






The ninth graders who staged the sit-in amazingly did it entirely on their own. They endured the expected catcalls and jeers, but got a lot more support than hostility. The school principal openly admired and supported them, but still sentenced each of them to 2 hours detention to make up for lost school time. The "Pine Tree Six" were later inducted into the historical society as lifetime members.


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## pdqdl (Feb 29, 2008)

AxeKnot said:


> I support the protesters any day of the week over a ....



AxeKnot: What a spectacular tree (in your previous post) ! I have never seen anything quite like that. Can you tell me anything more about this tree? If possible: where is it at, how old is it, what kind of tree...


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## TimberMcPherson (Feb 29, 2008)

adam said:


> There is something extremely disturbing in every removel of healthy, large tree, no matter how legal the removal is. Some of the trees that I've cut down will haunt me for the rest of my life.



Yeah true here to mate. Legal just means the lawyers dont care. I simply dont do those jobs anymore, Im an arborist first, paid worker for nobody.


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## clearance (Mar 1, 2008)

adam said:


> There is something extremely disturbing in every removel of healthy, large tree, no matter how legal the removal is. Some of the trees that I've cut down will haunt me for the rest of my life.



Extremely disturbing to remove a tree?
That misuse of words is like calling the office workers who died in 9/11 heroes. Soldiers who die fighting are heroes, fireman that die helping people are heroes, not office workers caught up in something they have no say in. Denigrates the English langauge. What about when a child is murdered, let me guess, extra extremely disturbing?

I have cut down lots of healthy trees, the people that were paying wanted them gone, simple. If they ask, I offer my opinion, I don't like to cut down big conifers without a good reason, but its not my tree, not my call.


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## pbtree (Mar 1, 2008)

clearance said:


> I am not a police lover, but send them in, clubs swinging, dogs biting. I have had it with mutts who snivel about tree removal, it ain't your tree, so flock off. Been there enough, the same people who cry about you cutting down trees around powerlines are the same ones who cry when some p.o.s. tree they saved rips the line down and they are in the dark.
> 
> Maybe these trees shouldn't be cut down, perhaps the stadium shouldn't be built, but the permits are approved, suck it up.



Excellent!


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## farmer (Mar 1, 2008)

Egggssselent Smithers


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 1, 2008)

clearance said:


> Extremely disturbing to remove a tree?
> That misuse of words is like calling the office workers who died in 9/11 heroes. Soldiers who die fighting are heroes, fireman that die helping people are heroes, not office workers caught up in something they have no say in. Denigrates the English langauge. What about when a child is murdered, let me guess, extra extremely disturbing?
> 
> I have cut down lots of healthy trees, the people that were paying wanted them gone, simple. If they ask, I offer my opinion, I don't like to cut down big conifers without a good reason, but its not my tree, not my call.



Tree Killer!!! 

It's like you are a mercenary or something. 

Why I'll just bet you'd probably mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush (lower plant life forms, to be sure) for the right amount of money. How can you sleep at night!


Oh the humanity!


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## RedlineIt (Mar 1, 2008)

> Extremely disturbing to remove a tree?
> That misuse of words is like calling the office workers who died in 9/11 heroes. Soldiers who die fighting are heroes, fireman that die helping people are heroes, not office workers caught up in something they have no say in. Denigrates the English langauge. What about when a child is murdered, let me guess, extra extremely disturbing?
> 
> I have cut down lots of healthy trees, the people that were paying wanted them gone, simple. If they ask, I offer my opinion, I don't like to cut down big conifers without a good reason, but its not my tree, not my call.



Excellent post clearance!

The most emotional disturance I've ever had to endure on the job was the removal of an absolutely perfect, never touched, never pruned fastigiate Gingko Biloba to make room for a new deck. Now, I've got a soft spot for Gingkoes, they've found an evolutional niche where they have survived unchanged for 500 centuries, due in part to cultivation by buddhist monks. I also used to bet in a pool on the day of leaf drop for a particular Gingko on Mavis Rd., and I'd done a three year study on the growth rate of 22 Gingkoes planted on a street in Southern Ontario. (Don't want to overblow that, it took the morning, each fall for three years, my data went along with others to rounder heads in an office.)

But it was the biggest Ginkgo I'd seen to that point, it was perfect, and I cut it down.  Easy removal.  

Can't recall if my emotional disturbance lasted longer than it took the chipper disc to spin down or if I'd forgotten while I fed the chipper. That's a toss up.

I am an arborist, but I am also a climber for hire. You want it gorgeous, I can do that. You want it gone, here's your pemits, I happily do that too.

There is a new interchange going in near me. Haven't been involved but there have been several trucks nicely loaded headed up Island, protesters in trees evicted by climbing RCMP's (wish I'd seen THAT) cops on the ground in flak gear, with dogs, routing the protesters out.

Now the protesters have started vandalizing equipment on the ground, painting windshields at night. The contractors will work around that.

Permits for this are in place, there has been fully a year to meet and voice concerns.

Done.


RedlineIt


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## treeseer (Mar 1, 2008)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Yeah true here to mate. Legal just means the lawyers dont care. I simply dont do those jobs anymore, Im an arborist first, paid worker for nobody.


True here too, mate.  

Cutting on demand is aerial grunt work, same as to mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush for the right amount of money.

Like homo sapiens evolved out of the treedwelling :monkey: , your business evolved out of treecudding by orders, and up to tree care by choice.

moray, those 9th graders are way cool. I'll bet they didn't mind that 2-hour detention, and were much admired by their classmates, who lacked the courage to sit down for what they believed in! :blob6: 
The Child is Father to the Man.


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 1, 2008)

treeseer said:


> True here too, mate.
> 
> Cutting on demand is aerial grunt work, same as to mow lawns, whip weeds, or clear brush for the right amount of money.
> 
> ...




LOL! It's all grunt work brother, just like they are all plants, some are just more glorified out of proportion than others.

A truly professional arborist, just as a truly professional lawn care specialist or landscaper, is just as capable and ready (that is physically, _mentally_, _and emotionally_) to perform *all *aspects of said profession to customer satisfaction, whether that be care or elimination.

Anything more high minded than that is simple religion IMHO, just like that whole man evolving from monkeys fad, or my favorite...global warming...pure unadulterated claptrap...fodder for the masses. 

Are you assuming that all the classmates were cowards because they didn't sit around a tree? How can you presume any or all of the classmates believed in saving the tree in the first place? I believe the detentions to be a novel gesture in the spirit that you must be prepared to face all the consequences of being a protester. That seems to be a good lesson, not necessarily meant as a deterrent.

P.S. Not that it really matters, but I doubt that these kids came up with this familiar stunt on their own. It could happen, however, someone is usually in the shadows on a project like this. I'll bet more than likely someone was vicariously reliving something or some time through their kid and then that child became the ringleader. Like I said, not that it matters. I'm glad at least that the tree was sound and worth saving in that situation.


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## farmer (Mar 2, 2008)

I think you guys are reading way more philosophical crap into this argument than you are common sense. 

Engineers and architechts are noted for lack of common sense

Beautifull old trees take a long time to grow, hence the term old

Tree guys get paid to remove trees-clouded judgement?

Government lacks common sense more than anyone

The protesters and hippys aren't always wrong. Look at the
organic food available in the big stores now and the rush to
do something for the enviroment-global warming etc.


I think it boils down to being able to have an open mind not letting 
personal prejudice cloud our judgement. Not always an easy thing.


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## treeseer (Mar 2, 2008)

Bigus Termitius said:


> A truly professional arborist, ...is ready ... to perform *all *aspects of said profession to customer satisfaction, whether that be care or elimination. Anything more high minded than that is simple religion.


or Professional. as Wikipedia defines it, " (capital P)Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their **independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification."
Tradesmen and others, like gigolos and dope dealers, can act small p professionally as they Keep the Customer Satisfied (remember the Paul Simon song?), but Timber is a Professional because he is independent. 

Can you separate religion from the rest of life? If so, is it relevant? and were you supposed to bring that up in this forum--watch the rules!


> Are you assuming that all the classmates were cowards because they didn't sit around a tree?


Not at all; the ones who believed in saving the tree but did not act were more concerned with keeping the teacher and the parent and everyone else satisfied, instead of satisfying the ultimate need for truth, justice and the arboricultural way.


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## farmer (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh, and 18 years later that big pine is still standing. When it boils down to it is any big tree really 100% safe. Lightening could strike a perfectly solid tree and cause it to land on something or somebody. Should we cut down all big trees to reduce the hazard?


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 2, 2008)

treeseer said:


> or Professional. as Wikipedia defines it, " (capital P)Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their **independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification."
> Tradesmen and others, like gigolos and dope dealers, can act small p professionally as they Keep the Customer Satisfied (remember the Paul Simon song?), but Timber is a Professional because he is independent.
> 
> Can you separate religion from the rest of life? If so, is it relevant? and were you supposed to bring that up in this forum--watch the rules!Not at all; the ones who believed in saving the tree but did not act were more concerned with keeping the teacher and the parent and everyone else satisfied, instead of satisfying the ultimate need for truth, justice and the arboricultural way.



Can you?

You were the first one bringing up religions....i.e. evolution. Just as great a farce as global warming...another great recent religion brought to you by those that tried touting global cooling as an end to their means not so long ago. How soon we forget. Like I said, fodder for the masses.

At any rate, some people make a religion around trees. I'm simply saying that, IMHO, anything more high minded and aloof than considering the entire spectrum of _Professional tree work_ as valid is religious. In other words, if one believes that they are more sanctified, or more noble, or more validated because they are above certain tasks or aspects of the profession, that is fine, but it resembles something more along the lines of religious zeal than professionalism. 

I suppose that there is room for that in a blue collar field, but it's borrowed at best. It's all grunt work, some more glorified in certain minds than others, perhaps, but grunt work all the same. And yes, a need for professionals at every corner of it.

I'm not in reference to fly by night hacksters, those are beyond the scope of this profession and aside from my point. At best they are more akin to the dope peddlers and what not you refer to that keep an 'ignorant' customer satisfied. Howbeit, let's stay focused shall we.

I'm talking about customers that are either knowledgeable, or in the process of being educated by a good arborist. Careful, I didn't say converted to anyone's ideology (does that word make you feel more comfortable?) or religion. I'm talking just the facts. 

Now then, I wonder, if one of these customers, that keep good arborists like Timber "independent" (see the underlying dependence), wanted a tree removed, simply because, what is a guy above this sort of thing to do? Argue? I doubt it. Might try persuasion, but in the end most are going to be the paid worker that they are and do the job and keep the customer, or risk giving the job and maybe the customer to an arborist that can handle all the tasks, physically, mentally, and emotionally. 

I love Trees, brother, but I can't afford to make a religion out of them. Perhaps some can, but are they really an arborist first, or an idealist. 

A good friend of mine comes to me and says, "What's with all this tree work, come work for me and run my business. What can you possibly want with chopping down trees all the time?"

I told him, "You don't understand, I'm interested in tree care so that I don't have to chop them down all of the time. I'd rather care for them, that is my interest." 

He was dumb struck for a moment, and then understood.

But chop them down I will. Plant them I will. Care for them I will. Make a religion out of them I won't.



> the ones who believed in saving the tree but did not act were more concerned with keeping the teacher and the parent and everyone else satisfied, instead of satisfying the ultimate need for truth, justice and the arboricultural way.



Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though.  That's ok, we do it all the time, don't we.  

How many students believed in saving the tree, now that we have it narrowed down? 

Are you saying that one that maintains a belief or an opinion, but does not act in a certain way, is by default a coward? 

So then, by this flavor of rationale all of the students and residence at Berkley that would rather not see 38 out of 100 trees be removed are cowards? Just these few in the trees are courageous?

Funny, not much talk about Berkley since the whole truth was revealed.

Oh well, I like the story of these six kids better by far anyway.


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## Grace Tree (Mar 2, 2008)

Bigus Termitius---Great post.
Phil


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 2, 2008)

Small Wood said:


> Bigus Termitius---Great post.
> Phil



Thank you sir.


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## treeseer (Mar 2, 2008)

Many arborists will walk away from dumb removals; call them idealists if you want. If we're Professional, we are independent, and able to walk. You are right though; we all need money. I often bid $9,999.99 for dumb removals. I sometimes do them at a fair price, if I gain concessions elsewhere.

You are right; ideals do not always rule, but they are a good guide to business growth and other rewards.

Tradesmen may always have to Keep the Customer Satisfied, but that approach also describes the world's oldest "profession", or Paul Simon's dope dealer.

"truth, justice and the arboricultural way.
Touching, very touching. Sounds borrowed though." Not only meant to be touching, but it is the most profitable long term approach, because independent Professionals can get a LOT more $$$ per hour than tradesmen. 

O and You are right again; I did paraphrase it, substituting for "arboricultural" for"American".  

Gee but its great to be back home
Home is where I want to be.
Ive been on the road so long my friend,
And if you came along
I know you couldnt disagree.

Chorus
Its the same old story
Everywhere I go,
I get slandered,
Libeled,
I hear words I never heard
In the bible
And Im on step ahead of the shoe shine
Two steps away from the county line
Just trying to keep my customers satisfied,
Satisfied.

Deputy sheriff said to me
Tell me what you come here for, boy.
You better get your bags and flee.
Youre in trouble boy,
And youre heading into more.


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## D Mc (Mar 2, 2008)

This thread has certainly generated a lot of discussion. Very interesting listening to you smart guys argue (oops, I meant discuss) such topics.

One thing that was mentioned that I feel needs correcting that tree work is not, and should not be, merely grunt work. Certainly our profession is very physically demanding and requires muscle to back up the brain. But a removal technician can be a joy to watch and even the lay person can appreciate the fluidness of their movements. When the topic goes to complex trimming situations, an element of artistry is required and indeed necessary and the lacking component when we notice tree work that is done "by the book" but still somehow doesn't look right. 

D Mc


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## tree MDS (Mar 2, 2008)

treeseer said:


> Many arborists will walk away from dumb removals; call them idealists if you want. If we're Professional, we are independent, and able to walk. You are right though; we all need money. I often bid $9,999.99 for dumb removals. I sometimes do them at a fair price, if I gain concessions elsewhere.
> 
> You are right; ideals do not always rule, but they are a good guide to business growth and other rewards.
> 
> ...


Thats it, I'm gettin on a plane and I'm gonna cut them f#@$%#@ trees myself- for free !


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## LTREES (Mar 2, 2008)

If you want to hug a tree, buy some property with trees on it and hug away. If a land owner wants me to cut down a healthy tree for an unspecified reason, so be it. I will always advise other wise if there might be another solution, try to educate, or listen to their reasoning. Most of time they ask me " what would you do if it were your tree ? " 9 out of 10 times they listen to your suggestions, but some times you can't always see the H.O.'s ( land owner ) big picture. God bless America !!!

 :greenchainsaw:


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## CaveSaw (Jun 18, 2008)

*Tree sitters*

The University brought in arborists again to remove ropes, etc from the trees where the tree sitters are protesting the stadium expansion in Berkeley. I'm not trying to start political debate but it seems like an interesting day in the life for an arborist and I usually don't see arborists referred to as such in the media. A reminder that these trees were originally planted by the University at the time that they built the stadium that they now want to expand. There was action today because there will be a court ruling on building tomorrow and it was expected that more tree sitters would be showing up. One protester was removed after she bit an arborist.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/17/BAEC11AJ2P.DTL&tsp=1


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## clearance (Jun 18, 2008)

CaveSaw said:


> One protester was removed after she bit an arborist.



Did I not say to send in the dogs and cops with clubs months back? Well? Now look, one of the mutts has bitten a fellow treeman, shoulda listened to old Clearance. And the trees are still there.....Thanks for the update CaveSaw


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 18, 2008)

clearance said:


> Did I not say to send in the dogs and cops with clubs months back? Well? Now look, one of the mutts has bitten a fellow treeman, shoulda listened to old Clearance. And the trees are still there.....Thanks for the update CaveSaw



Better test for rabies and the like.


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## tree MDS (Jun 18, 2008)

I was waiting for this one to liven up again-sweet! I hope they whip them dirty hippies up real proper like, lol.


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## CaveSaw (Sep 5, 2008)

*Trees coming down finally*

The University finally got approval to take down the trees. The protesters appealed but it was denied. So the arborists got sent in today. I loved the part about the arborists "while the protesters swatted them with sticks." Just another interesting day in the tree field?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/09/05/BAEE12P1DP.DTL

http://www.dailycal.org/article/102486/trees_cut_down_near_uc_berkeley_stadium


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## treeseer (Sep 6, 2008)

The university has said it would plant one mature tree and two saplings for each tree that is removed, but the plaintiffs argued that was not sufficient replacement 

wonder how the U defines "mature"?


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## TimberMcPherson (Sep 6, 2008)

As arborists we are the last line, the last opinion, and often the last chance for a tree before it gets the figurative axe. I happen to care about the trees I work with especially if they are great specimens. 

I have killed lambs with my bare hands, have killed more young cute calves with a hammer than I care to remember, I have little trouble doing things if I have to, thats easy. Whats hard is standing up for something that will cost you a job and a client. 

For me being a pro arborist means more than carrying out tasks well and getting paid. If I cut down a tree my work is forgotten in days, but those good specimens I fight to leave standing will be a part of peoples lives for generations. I go by trees I have saved every day.

All the time tree space in every environment is taken for buildings, decks, stadiums views etc, its never given back yet its infinately valuable to the health and well being of all of us. Especially those who make there living working with, not against trees.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 6, 2008)

Even though it may or may not be commendable for tree sitters to express thier views, as they loose much or all of their time, money and effort on this one, the defeat is probably as effective as biting them back, and probably hurts worse.

The tree hugger types rarely stand up for what I call canopy management.

In some areas, too much foliage and tree cover is undesirable. Quite a few homes and businesses really need a certain amount of foliage, where they remove some trees, and add some trees, decade after decade to maintain a planned amount of foliage.

But I have yet to find a tree hugger who will offer a plan, or do a sit, to promote practical alternatives like that.

The day that more tree hugger types start showing an interest in the big picture of tree preservation, will be a day when they get even more respect than they have now.


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## tree MDS (Sep 6, 2008)

I like trees, I just dont like hippies so much. I've got a friend thats hippylike I guess you would call him, long hair and lives in Vermont-anyway I had him come down to help me one time, so we're chipping brush and I'm smelling this body odor fiercely, well I thought it was the other dirtbag groundman so I pulled my friend over (with chipper sceaming) and said "do you smell the FN body odor on that guy"? Well just as I was finishing saying that (well about half way through, but too late) I was stricken by the worst B.O. I think I've ever smelled. Oops. Latter on he drops into the conversation that he "forgot his deodorant", lol. Another time my ex cooked us a steak and shrimp dinner after working and he hardly ate, he "doesnt eat much red meat", lol. Another time he and his groundman came down and (complete with dreads) stayed in our partially finished basement overnight and my old lady said she had to wash everthing-and hit the sectional up with the Febreeze. I'm glad for the trees that it will soon all be over. I dont talk to that guy anymore incedently.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 6, 2008)

The management issue is big around here.

Since we do not have much of any "old growth" even in remnant populations, there is an attitude that anything green is good. If you try to thin out the invasive material, you are a bad man, destroying the environment.

God forbid they see you do stump paint with Roundup!

Thoughtful management is basic environmental science, but many of the hard corps greenie weenies will not accept it.


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## pdqdl (Sep 6, 2008)

I really don't see how that protest lasted that long.

Fence it off, arrest anybody that crosses the line. Arrest every tree sitter that comes down for food or water. Keep 'em in jail without bail if they show up at the protest again.

Drop every tree with no one in it.

All the trees would be gone in 10 days. They could protest, but it would be over the stumps of the removed trees.

10 days of police stationed there for 24/7 would have to be a whole lot cheaper and more practical than a two year public spectacle.

or... let some willing branch of the military do some practical training in crowd control, and drag them out of the trees in one day.

or... hire somebody like me to cut the trees down around them. Branch at a time, there would be nothing left to hug. I could take a shower at the end of the day, and they would run out of "weapons". I'll bet I could lower branches with people still tied to them, and nobody would get hurt. Too much, anyway.


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## woodchux (Sep 6, 2008)

Just saw some video of protesters being arrested... White boyz with dreadlocks. lol


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## tree MDS (Sep 6, 2008)

woodchux said:


> Just saw some video of protesters being arrested... White boyz with dreadlocks. lol



Yeah, yeah, yeah-thats the type that stunk up the basement at my ex's house.


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## pbtree (Sep 7, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Thoughtful management is basic environmental science, but many of the hard corps greenie weenies will not accept it.



They are all emotion with no critical reasoning skills.... :greenchainsaw:


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## pbtree (Sep 7, 2008)

CaveSaw said:


> I loved the part about the arborists "while the protesters swatted them with sticks." Just another interesting day in the tree field?



They should all be locked up for interfering with property rights and battery....


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