# Do ants make trees unsafe?



## Guy Meilleur (Nov 6, 2004)

Some talk from another thread: "Now, sapsucker holes can invite all forms of little creepies to get in there and munch away at wood, among other things; and that can , and around here anyways, usually does lead to the eventual demise of the tree.

And if you really think that ants never make trees unsafe, you're not as smart as I thought you were."

I've seen carpenter ants expand cavities slightly, but never to the point of hazard. I've never seen a case where any other kind of ant caused any kind of harm to a tree.
Have I missed something here?
What is your experience with ants?


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## Scars2prove-it (Nov 6, 2004)

I've seen many trees damaged by Carpenter ants, especially cherry's. There is a tree in the tropics, I can't recall where, that needs a certain type of ant to inhabit it in order to survive. The ants keep other insects away and clip off vines.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 6, 2004)

Hey, that's cool!


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## begleytree (Nov 6, 2004)

I believe that ants point to a more serious problem. I don't believe that ants attack a perfectly healthy tree, and as such, cause it's untimely demise. I believe that other factors, such as topping in maples, cause weakness and decay which the ants take advantage of and help the decay problem along. In my example I don't believe an injection of imicide will cure all the tree's ills, but is a good place to start. I have removed maples (our most ant prone, and topping prone trees here) and only saw where the ants were working within the area of decay, or adjecent to it, but were absent in the healthy outer regions of the tree.

Ralph -who hates carrying wood with ants in it


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## Dadatwins (Nov 6, 2004)

Think they are more opportunist than cause. Do not think ants will simply find a solid tree with healthy tissue and start attacking. Any open wounds, rips, etc will usually become home for some ants and my opinion is they can help contribute to a tree demise, but only as a secondary problem. Interesting topic since a lot of homeowners claim that ants are killing their trees but I think by the time the ants have taken residence a simple problem that may have been corrected earlier has probably escalated.


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## arboromega (Nov 6, 2004)

ants can definitely be pest but are no the casue of problems...just a symptom. they can also be used as an indicator species to help id some other issues in and around the tree.


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## Gord (Nov 6, 2004)

i would say that they can definitely make trees more unsafe. i've seen a few firs and hemlocks around here fail in areas hollowed out by insects. had the dead wood not been removed they likely would still be standing. carpenter ants are an excellent indication of rot in douglas-firs especially.


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

whats your take guy or are we sitting on the fence as usual


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## Nathan Wreyford (Nov 6, 2004)

Sometimes when carpenter ants get angry, the DO bite. Anything that bites makes a tree more dangerous.

Riddle me this.....

They don't _"eat"_ wood do they?? How do they break down the cellulose??

I thought they merely excavated in deadwood to make galleries for living/reproduction  

What do they eat???

(I have my answer ready)


There are *MANY* perfectly healthy *OLD* trees that have ants living in them.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 6, 2004)

There might not be any old trees that don't have them living in them!

:alien:


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## Nathan Wreyford (Nov 6, 2004)

http://www.ipmofalaska.homestead.com/files/carpantsintrees.html


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *whats your take guy or are we sitting on the fence as usual *


Sitting on a fence sounds very uncomfortable. 

I answered #3, and I wonder if those who have seen trees fail at defects where ants resided really know wheher the ants caused the defect. Maybe they were just innocent residents.

Answer #4 was for you, lopa, I'm still waiting to find out what kind of vicious those Aussie ants are. Over here I've dissected carpenter ant nests and it's evident that they expanded the cavities, but how much or how fast is uncertain.

Nathan's link on them was good info, in line with other info I've seen. And KC's right; every old tree has ants but no old tree I've ever seen has been made unsafe by them. Erik must be sitting this one out while he's logging those doomed trees with sapsucker holes in them. :blush:


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nathan Wreyford _
> * Riddle me this.....
> 
> They don't "eat" wood do they?? How do they break down the cellulose?? *


I've heard that carpeneter ants in particular secrete an acidic "sweat" that dissolves the cellulose. but I never checked to see if that was true.


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

what about trunk bulge? when they get in a cavity and call it home,i wouldnt say thats benificial to the tree,or saftey issues.


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

these ants arnt good for a tree:angel:


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

these little buggers brought the tree u cd rom


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 6, 2004)

*Jason!*

You been in the garage, whore whut?


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

you damm right i have


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 6, 2004)

And why wouldn't ya, eh?


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

webcam?


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## a_lopa (Nov 6, 2004)

i suppose i should be there with a motorised cavity scraper


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## Nathan Wreyford (Nov 7, 2004)

It is interesting to the the misconceptions "arborists" have.  

http://www.antcolony.org/carpenter_antsmain.htm

Call ants bad and then charge to remove a tree that has ants.  

Better yet, broadcast fertilize with high N fert that cause a tree to put out lots of tasty new growth, new growth attracts aphids, aphids attract carpenter ants.....charge to spray for ants or remove the tree  Definite devil's circle.

Read up, study ants.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 7, 2004)

The link says that ants enhance the decay process of trees.

Could a case be made that they help limit decay like maggots?


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 7, 2004)

Interesting concept, Kenny.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> * Could a case be made that they help limit decay? *


Yes, Shigo and others have made the case that by keeping galleries and passageways clean and open, ants make better air flow, less moisture and less rot.

Jason thanks for the pictures but as Mike notes they do not show ants making the tree unsafe. Fungus eats wood, ants do not. Erik, when you say stuff like "Ants don't start the demise. They sure can do a dandy job of finishing it, though.", you really aren't adding anything but unsubstantiated opinion.

Note that Option #1 said "because...". The idea was to encourage those who see ants as tree-damaging to give a REASON, not just opinion. Still waiting for reasons. Trunks bulge because of decay, not because of ants. Jason at least tried to furnish a reason for his vote; 5 others did not.

And Option #4 referred to a still-fictitious Aussie beast. It's on lopa to convince us that this Abominable Ant that makes trees unsafe actually exists. Until then it sounds like an urban myth that sells urban logging.

Thanks Nathan for the links and advice; I got a lot to learn about insects. As they say here in the South, when we shoot our mouths off we're more likely to hit the target if our brains are loaded.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Since no matter what I say you're going to argue, why bother? *



Awe heck now ya ruined it; i thought that was part of the fun, competition of dealing with mirrors of our own stubborn selves


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 7, 2004)

I'll only argue if you're wrong, Erik. You can guzzle a gallon of java and never prove that ants make trees unsafe. Or can you? 

Stay tuned? The channel's open, but all I can hear is static, so far. :Monkey:


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 7, 2004)

It's Sunday! Yur supposed to be having a bar-b-que!


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## underwor (Nov 7, 2004)

I agree with the concept that ants are an indication that the tree tree has bigger problems. It would be intersting to see if they ever penetrate the CODIT walls and aid in the spread of fungus, as we did in the days when we tried to clean out cavities. I can not say that I have ever seen ants in sound wood. If they do not eat wood, as the ant colony site says, if they remove only the softest wood to make their galleries, if they use natural openings whenever possible and if they keep the tunnels clean and open to drying aeration, then it sounds much like the medical community using maggots to clean out certain wounds in people so that the amount of damage is limited, but the job completely accomplished. The only way i think they may aid spread of structural loss is if they create galleries outside of the CODIT area and thus allow fungal diseases to spread.

40 below and no humidity do wonders for limiting pest problems in the sunny Dakotas

Bob


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> * You can quote all the crud you want, Again, ants can come into the picture after disease or injury open up the door as secondary problems... but ultimately it's the removal of even decayed/weakened wood that can cause failure. Weak wood is more structurally solid than air.
> 
> Maybe you just aren't understanding what I'm saying? A failure on my part to communicate what's in my head into written form?
> *


Partly. Since ants can't digest cellulose in wood fiber (and only in rare cases of carpenter ants can they break boundaries by cutting into it), and since it's wood fiber that makes trees resist failing, therefore they can't make trees unsafe.

There you have a simple logical syllogism, instead of "crud" in the scientific literature that you don't want to hear. 
Do you disagree with one of the premises or the conclusion?

MB's right; it's Sunday afternoon, time to plant trees for pay $ .


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 7, 2004)

Erik,

Have you found out how strong decayed wood is compared to healthy wood? I'll bet that when you do find that stat you'll see that air is only a smidgeon stronger than decayed wood. 

Until I started reading books and info on webpages I had a really uneducated eye. What I saw was really not what was happening. Make flush cuts and the wound seals faster on the outside but is larger on the inside. A good friend of mine had completely grey hair by the time he was thirty. Does that make him "old"?

Your eyes are seeing two things that are related. It seems that you're tying the two observations together with bull rope instead of sewing thread. Decay, ants and weak wood are only weakly related.

Opening up to new ideas that are based on research is a way to learn. You don't have to accept all of the research but it seems pretty limiting to me if you deny it all.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 7, 2004)

Cuz to support the tape that is wrapped around the foam?

Why would Stumper's(?) model of a hollow line being stronger per # from less friction between inside and outside layers?

On one of my quasi-philosphical ventures may i fence stand (after all that is the hardest position, but i knw that is no defence) and say that perhaps both camps that write are right. 

There prolly(hey, it's in the JP dictionary!) is a point where the tree is so weak that any removal of substance is detrimental. i kinda think that would be on the extreme part of the scale, possibly of no return, sharp decline anyway.

In the "Maggot Model"; do not the maggots clean to health; but finally take everything? And in both ways to Nature are useful for what must be done?

i kinda do think that Guy would prevail on most of the curve of that graph of ant's effects; but it would be quite reasonable to possibly assume a reversal at some bend in the graph; as many other things.

Or, something like that!
:alien:


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## arboromega (Nov 7, 2004)

can we be more specific here... what kind of ants? the posts are reading as if everyone is refering to carpenter ants. these ants make a home chewing away at decomposing wood. the choose homes here because the rotting wood is easier to chew. they dont eat wood. their food source is elsewhere such as the sugars left behind from aphids, or they eat other insects.
the only concern then is the ants removing this rotting wood from the cavity. and the answer to the detrement or betterment of that removal is still not fully understood. howeverthe decay of a central column in trees is also sped up by water accumulation and fungus and so i dont think we should place total blame upon the carpenter ant.


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## Tom Dunlap (Nov 7, 2004)

Erik,

Is your question about polesaws the subject of a new thread or metaphorical?

If it's a new thread subject I believe the foam is there to keep contaminants from coating the inside of hotsticks. It also adds strength.

I'm assuming you're trying to make a jump from foam to decayed wood. That leap is a long one. The foam was engineered to have a uniform density and strength to fill the pole. There isn't a similarity to decayed wood in a tree. Bad metaphor it seems to me.

I'm sure that you could find information on the strength of sound and decayed wood on the Forest Prodcuts Lab website. Even without hard data I think all of us have a pretty good intuitive feel for the strength loss of decayed wood. Ants moving around the material would have little effect on the overall strength of the tree limb or trunk.

Tom


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## glens (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *What's the purpose of adding a foam core to pruner poles? *


keeping ants out so the cross-section doesn't collapse


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 7, 2004)

i think in the pole's case; there is fiberglass tape wrapped around foam; not so much like a hollow pole filled.

:alien:


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## a_lopa (Nov 7, 2004)

seeing as ants are a very important part of our ecosystem being a dry arid continent i guess i wouldnt know them pictures i pasted come from the csiro the aust goverment scientific dept,they were pictures of what ants can do,not fungal decay.


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 7, 2004)

I imagine nature knows what the heck it's doing.


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## Derek (Nov 7, 2004)

Where was I when this started, Must of been in the garage to...

Ok late but here!.....I got the feeling that the Attack (evil) ants option was aimed at ME...Not Aussie, But thanks for steppin up Jason...

It will be 12 hours from now but i ll post some picks of ant damage...


Termites (white ants) are an increadably serious problem in trees or houses...The stack or timber I have sitting around, or the Bench seat thats sits on a couple of imported stumps...

Bloody good thing we have good paint over here, so many places are held together by it, the termites have eaten everything eles..

They will even eat "CypressPine" said to be imune..Bull????...They will eat any thing...


In my firewood days I was ammazed by termites, This would be my longest post EVER if I Decribed the destructive power of them.

And the things ive seen them do...They dont die like I have been told by locals if you expose them to sunlight or seperate them from the soil...

I STILL have old hard blocks of wood with them in there, sitting on concreate for 2 years....THRIVING..

I USED TO HATE DELIVERING WOOD FULL OF TERMITES..
If you cut it and left it for a few days the black ants would clean it up nicley for you .You can see them going up the soft grain holes and dragging them out...(Not a crewl person att all but love to watch them get eaten!...Our house here when we bought it was full of them and had to vacume clean up th inside of some walls, That was all that was left of some!...

Try and eat the steel (we replaced it with) ya little bastards!

No i hate them, MORE than the evil ones..The tree i was in when it was pulled over, was badley termite infested, and can't beleive some of the pipes up trees once ive come down and droped it..

Took me a few weeks to get over being in a falling tree, I look a lot harder these days...In saying that The EVIL ants, the juvinille ones anyway will hunt in trees, They eat termites, its the adults that gaurd them and go for the vibrations of the saw...OUCH, when I got attacked(chit on my rope and couldent get down,) I was going to cut my line, Dident seem to matter that i was 20 meters in the air, landing badley might take the EXCRUCATING pain of the ant stings away!!...Thay can jump a metre as well, grab you with there Mantables and repeadivly sting you with their tail!

Going to remove some infested trees very shortly, in fact..

Tonight I will scan some pics of damage, then you tell me Are certian ants goog for trees....

Heres our EVIL ant again...
posted it heaps before, I should make it my avatar?

More tonight...Derek...ANTHATER!


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## underwor (Nov 7, 2004)

I would guess that the foam in the pruner pole is similar to the core of 16 strand rope, there to keep it from deforming to the point of cracking, but adding minimal strength.

Do you have the link to the thread someone posted on the strength of a hollow tree? I think that if we compared those results to both hollow and well rotted trees, we would find very similar results. 

Bob


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## Nickrosis (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *I've heard that carpeneter ants in particular secrete an acidic "sweat" that dissolves the cellulose. but I never checked to see if that was true. *


According to Nathan's link, they don't eat it at all....they mine it out.

Termites do the eating.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by underwor _
> *I would guess that the foam in the pruner pole is similar to the core of 16 strand rope, there to keep it from deforming to the point of cracking, but adding minimal strength.
> 
> Do you have the link to the thread someone posted on the strength of a hollow tree? I think that if we compared those results to both hollow and well rotted trees, we would find very similar results.
> ...



That is kinda how i see it; then there is this thing if the inside and outisde componenets scrubbing against each other cause enough friction to weaken. By maintaing the shape, not so much strengthening, the equivalent leveraged support of the circle is maintained. Violate that shape to a smaller diameter, then less leveraged support at all points. Kinda just miss-shape it, and some axisses would have more leveraged support than others. All determined by the distance beteween compression and tension, everything else equal.

The outer perimiter will try to carry the load at flex, it is the widest distance apart, so Nature will use this maximum to be the easiest way to carry the load. Nature of things, will always be to take the easy way. As 1 extreme loaded side compresses and the exact opposite tensions. So the points of compression and tension will be on the outside perimiter.

The farthest reach of this tension, the most leveraged positions, will be the most active part. Wound wood, would occupy this region, seeing as we don't replace wood. So that the ~40% stronger and more elastic wound wood would also add more strength occupying the most leveraged positions, always closing over, to the outside perimiter.

Accept for a moment, the charricature of the tree as the largest life ever, needing more food, space, strength than anything else; and being the shrewdest to pull it off in a system always looking to thin to maximum. If the tree needed the inside strength, more than the outside; would it not have evolved over millions of years as the largest ever, to replace interior wood?

Or, something like that,
:alien:


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## a_lopa (Nov 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *whats your take guy or are we sitting on the fence as usual *



still waiting? or do i start a ''do ants make trees safer'' its like saying smokings ok! its cancer that kills you.......Dereks area has ALOT of ants,i suspect there no where near as big a issue in US than here, were there still not really an issuei wont work in certain areas climbing due to meat eating ants better things to do,if the ants dont get ya the snakes on the way in will.so i guess the meat eating ants make the tree unsafe because you cant fine prune,or crown reduce :angel:


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *still waiting? *lopa I got right back to you on that: "I answered #3, and I wonder if those who have seen trees fail at defects where ants resided really know whether the ants caused the defect. Maybe they were just innocent residents.
> 
> Answer #4 was for you, lopa, I'm still waiting to find out what kind of vicious those Aussie ants are."
> * they're no where near as big a issue in US than here, were there still not really an issue *


 So if they're not really an issue, they don't make trees unsafe. Right? Thanks to you and Derek for the pics and the words on the meat-eaters. Even tho they might make tree-climbing unsafe, we're hearing you say that Aussie ants don't make trees unsafe.

If they did, I'd like to know about them before two of them hitchike their way to NC. That's why I started this thread, and to see if there was substance behind the Yes responses. Still not seeing much.


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## jimmyq (Nov 8, 2004)

I am headed to this ( http://www.pnwisa.org/TFRP04.pdf ) today, I will ask around about the ants and see what opinions are around hereabouts.


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## treeman45246 (Nov 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by underwor _
> 
> 
> Bob [/B]


*The only way i think they may aid spread of structural loss is if they create galleries outside of the CODIT area and thus allow fungal diseases to spread.* 

This would be why I voted yes on this poll. Shigos readings indicate that ants will not cross this boundary, and I have heard it argued before between tree professionals, but from what I have observed, carpenter ants will occasionally break CODIT walls, thus allowing fungal pathogens to spread. While most of the nests I have dissected stay within the confines of the decay column, I have also traced out galleries which break wall 2.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 8, 2004)

Finally someone gives a clear and viable reason for a Yes!

:angel: 

#3's still a better answer, but thanks for thinking aobut it. Beats sarcastic smilies any day.


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## pmuscato (Nov 9, 2004)

Ants are a beneficial insect. I like em covered in chocolate, yummy. I picked #3 also like the smart people.


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> * them pictures i pasted come from the csiro the aust goverment scientific dept,they were pictures of what ants can do,not fungal decay. *


I searched CSIRO and found nothing about ants making trees unsafe. What did I miss? Help!There were many references to ants protecting tree crops.

Yes there are termites down there; not many are bad pests like the Formosan. For the bad ones, "Control of pest termites involves identifying the species, locating the nest and choosing appropriate eradication methods." CSIRO does not say tree removal is appropriate.

Out of the 11 "Yes" responses to this poll, only one gave some observations, about carpenter ants in cherries. How much carpenter ants bother trees is unclear. No one has given us any reason to believe that any other ants do any harm, in Australia or Mars or anywhere. 

Poll's over, and so too I hope is the fearmongering over ants in trees.


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## jimmyq (Nov 14, 2004)

Doin some readin this AM, saw this and figured it was worth quoting.
"Myth 84. ANTS SPEED UP THE DECAY PROCESS. 
Ants keep their galleries very clean and in doing so they slow the decay process (A-96). Ants live in the tree and eat elsewhere. Termites “eat” in the tree and live elsewhere. (Some tropical termites live in nests on tree branches, but they still live outside the tree.) Ants and termites follow the CODIT patterns in living trees. Termites continue to follow the patterns for long periods even after the tree is cut (A::95, M-154). "
100 Tree Myths, Shigo.


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## a_lopa (Nov 14, 2004)

the poll still indicates there bad ive still got trunk swell up my sleave


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> * ive still got trunk swell up my sleave *


Maybe you should see a doctor about that; or is that some kind of pickup line?.

In a tree, trunk swell is caused by decay, not ants. Or is Myth #84 really a reality?

Evidence talks, opinion walks.


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## matthias (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *In a tree, trunk swell is caused by decay, not ants.
> *



Do you mean like this?


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## Derek (Nov 16, 2004)

FIVE pages on ants and the poll is closed?...

Sorry things are flat out (and no staff) at the moment, havent had a chance to write a couple of pages on "are ants bad for trees"..I was sorta hopeing to have some pics back by now on MY ants, and the increadible damage they can do, see for yourselves
....In a couple of days..Derek..

PS
That "save the sheep" tree on the fence job I did a month ago..
Was caused by "white ants" You can see the big brown nest in this shot...

When I cut it all up they just about carried the peices away...MILLIONS of them!

(This is not the long version remember)..I have seen nests at 30m high, no where eles in the tree..A queen can fly in to any sort of cavity and start from there..They can travell to ground just under the bark and bring dirt up with them(creates humidity)

How many there can be in the top of a tree never ceses to amaze me! Drop the tree and there none for the first 29m..??

Mostly they go up throught the root system, firstly eating the soft fibers, makeing egg laying spots as they go. Then the rest from the inside out, useualy leaving a few inches of wood. I guess to hold it up till they KILL IT, and it doesent take long either!..

I have my own theries on them, the way they infest certin propities, not others..

I worked with the local "Lucus mill" operater for ages, owners of land get us to cut the timber on site, build more sheep "somthings" The last ones are all eaten...

I felt that because all the flitches, left from the last time he was there, are now dust, The white ants simply moved on to the still living ones..Less and less useable wood each time...

Another guy BURNT his pile of timber off cuts, and has great trees??

Who knows?? I NOW know that the tree i was in when it fell over
was infested by ants, just couldent tell they where there!

My mate the "bullant" (countless attacks) is a vegertarian, eats only organic matterial...What are they doing in our trees, there supposed to be on the ground..The young bullants do eat meat...Termites, lots of them..The killer adults are there to protect
them, (do a fine job).
As much as I hate bullants (anywhere), they tell me that there is a nest up in the tree (useally ironbark, our hardest wood here) but have seen them in gums and stringys to..

Bullants are good for trees, just not climbers, White ants are just bad news for everything living, good for reducing forest waste, reducing fuel and cleaning up after humans, as my (soon) picks will show, dont leave your TIMBER gates of the cartrailer, on the ground for a couple of days, they'll be gone...Derek..


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 16, 2004)

WHite ants are termites, right? So they're off topic. So are ants that bite people but don't make trees unsafe.

What are "bullants"? scientific name:

Myrmecia glubosa. I found no documentation that they make trees unsafe; but this on their disease-fighting work:

Myrmecia gulosa (Australian bull ant) produce secretions from their metapleural exocrine glands which have broad spectrum antimicrobial properties. Such secretions are probably of importance in disease control in bull ant communities. These antimicrobial secretions are stable at 100 degrees C, resistant to proteolytic enzymes and are active over a wide pH range. Of the organisms tested only endospores of Bacillus cereus were found to be resistant. The antimicrobial agent(s) are absorbed by cells and result in cell lysis. The secretions do not interfere with any growth-related processes. These observations demonstrate that insects may be a source of novel antimicrobial agent(s).


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## Derek (Nov 16, 2004)

*HUH?*

Posted by Guy
"White ants are termites, right? So they're off topic. So are ants that bite people but don't make trees unsafe."

Sorry Guy musent of read the question well....

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION....(off topic?)

Ill go read the first 5 pages again. Could you PLEASE read MY responce AGAIN?...

Concentrait on the "damage" part, ignor the Bullant speial,
Only mentioned it (bullants) cause of the (sarcastic?) question in your poll..

Thanx for the research on .. 
Myrmecia glubosa. "I found no documentation that they make trees unsafe; but this on their disease-fighting work":

I can't pronounce half of it....Does it mean I wont get disease
if I keep getting stung?? 

Posted by Derek
Bullants are good for trees, just not climbers, White ants are just bad news for everything living, good for reducing forest waste, reducing fuel and cleaning up after humans, as my (soon) pics will show, dont leave your TIMBER gates of the cartrailer, on the ground for a couple of days, they'll be gone...Derek..

I thought the first 5 words sumed it up fine..Hmmmmm..

Look up somthing a bit more TOPIC related, and define an ANT for me..
Why is a White ant not concidered by you to be an ant..?
They look like other ants, nest like ants,live like ants they even have preditors like "anteater" to be wary of...
How and why are they not included in your poll?
(still hate Bulllants)..Derek..

Ps The pic is of some of the injuries I got when the tree I was in went over....Derek


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 16, 2004)

Derek, now I see where the question misled you. If it read "Do ants make trees unstable" instead of "unsafe", that may have been better. Also my bad for reading over your words that bull ants are good for trees; glad to see that you know that.

"Most people are comfortable that they know what an ant is, but hardly anyone seems sure they know what makes a termite a termite. Termites are not ants and certainly not white ants. That's a really sloppy term, please don't use it. They are most closely related to the cockroaches, and so are very different to ants. 
Ants share their insect order with bees and wasps (the Hymenoptera). Termites belong to their own insect order (the Isoptera) and have several clear and obvious differences which make it fairly simple to tell them from apart"

My bad also for reusing your term "white ant". The differences between ants and termites are hard to see when they're craling on you and biting like crazy. The post was all about tree risk assessment, and not risk to the climber of getting bitten.


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## Derek (Nov 17, 2004)

Cool Guy...

That helps, I can understand that YOU pro ARBORISTS, see a big difference in bugs in trees...If you knew how many people speak of termites as ants in this country, you would understand why I was a bit "sarcastic" last nite..

We call them White ants, people that spray poisons, advertise their services as the same..In fact I dont know any one that calls them anything else..To us (downunder) they are ants..

Go see whadja do today, my next post..The story continues..

No second thoughts, today was a disaster(financaly)..

Got ONE down..(not three)...Dammmm...
Saw a BLUE bull ant in the tree, I know what that means..

I got the customer to take pics of a peice of wood, I cut and threw it to them..I was at 30m and guess what..TERMITES
(Just to confuses) The BROWN ANT, was everywhere..

Job took 5 hours longer than it should of..I had to be so carefull not to drop out of the tree with them..BTW, I have a bit of a "peave" with termites in trees, lots of scars to show why I hate them so..The lright arm wasent to bad, PM me with an email address and i'll send you the pics of the rest of me..(far to gross to post!!) And then you'll see why I reacted the way i did..

Thanx for the clarification, you put alot of effert into your posts!

In saying that, I'll have to "goggle" the topic myself..We are quite different "up over" and NEED to make sure "white ants" arn't termites!..Then start the massive task of informing the rest of my countryman...Lots of people (like me) think they are ants!!

Home way to late to pick up the photos, I will have them tommorow..I even kept some "brown" termites to show the Dept of AG, Ill let you know what I found out!! Cheers ...Derek..


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## a_lopa (Nov 17, 2004)

so if a few thousand ants are crawling out a cavity ill say its fine


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## a_lopa (Nov 17, 2004)

white ants are termites tell me something i didnt know,ants do hollow out borings from termites i guesss that helps structual issues ''oh that trees full of ants ill rope the top out''


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## Derek (Nov 17, 2004)

*Hi Jason!*

In My long version, (yet to come) I was to go into some detail about other ants living where termites (white ants )
once where..

I never took the time to study ALL the bugs in our trees, but see some strange things going on!
In my firewood days, I would drop a tree, termites still eating it some ten years after they killed it.

I did watch in amazment, the larger black ants feeding on them
the black ants went into every hole and dragged them out one by on!

Couple of days later you have nice clean wood to deliver..
Shots soon..

Aussie we have to talk!!...Wasent an issue in Brisbane or Sydney( dont get a lot of them) or even on the lines these years, just adjust your exit path to suit the infestation...

"NO WORRIES MATE" chit, makes it hard when I got roofs, gardens,sheds,tanks etc in the way..And you can't get past it..

I dont want to get into the debate about are termites bad for trees, I want to know how to deal with the huge defects they have made in the tree im in at 30 m (Todays was). And I couldent tell it was there (when I quoted), 5 hours longer than it should of been and thrashed me for some reason( old age?)..

Pics of that will be tommorow..Have a look and let me know..
"There must be a better way"...PS my price on ANY gum in future
just went up by 200 bucks, $400 if its over 40m, stuff it, Damage bill this week is huge, had to take the 88 in , can't fix it myself?
New jets for it, Replaced the filters (was fine ,but) breathers cool.
Still RS ...Got "Hec" to close the bar up and dress it, changed gears to a 7 , can't get it to cut right since the "shocker" ...

I need the 42' to drop the gums around here, cracked the tank on the 009 (arildite) So I dont tend to use the Jonsered 625
(way to cheap Aussie!) for felling, the only reliabale saw in the fleet ATM..[bit heavey as a climbing saw though, ever notice?]

Opps this is an ant thread...Thought I was somewhere eles..

I have to finish it now!... First time in my life ...READY...Cut my flipline, stuffed it. dident hit the wire core but made a mess of the rope, it will just jamb up on the B52 grab..Quick hundred and fifty there...
I think The owner got a shot of it..( why im rushing the pics, I WANT TO SEE)..
It got hung up on somthing, obviously dident check it and started cutting, felt the saw hit it through my hips, WoW that was close, I would of fallen a meter at least before my 2nd POA kicked in...I have another coming express, rang from the tree just after it happened ( owner thought it histericial, chatting to my (expencive) contact in Brisbane, UP A TREE..) 

and just to top it off I recon I have stuffed another rope, ill look in the morning...chit thats now..12.36AM what am I doing waffeling on to you?...Night..Derek.


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## a_lopa (Nov 24, 2004)

ok Guy, lets put it on the line.you say ants are no harm whatso ever to trees correct?


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## a_lopa (Nov 24, 2004)

alex was out here testing my freinds sealant 25+years ago as well


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

I really cant be neutral on the subject...Heres some new pics just in..the first one is the "street tre$$" i posted (three weeks ago)

You saw me at the very top of the tree, come down drop it, this is what you find..millions of bugs, we still call them "white ants" here
AKA termites...


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## a_lopa (Nov 24, 2004)

what we call,ill tell you in pm


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

That was to show the same background, as when the climing shots where taken, perfectly healthy looking tree...


This is the same hole closer..

Granted only a very small tree base, you have much better terms (Guy), what was holding up the tree, I know that the outer layers (cambium) are very soft on gum trees, This is from a few days later (after the rain ended) as it dries, the different colors in whats left show up better

How long till you think it will be killed by the insects??


So many trees I climb are like this only much bigger,..

Many more blury pics of ants this week..
Some others turned out..Ill post them next..Derek..


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

In my old firewood days, to find a dry standing solid Ironbark (best firewood available) tree was very rare, the farmers (cockies)
will telll you it just died, no one ringbarked it, it had no mistreatment, it just died...

I cut it down, hopeing for good wood, i get this (see pic)..

Turns out I made more money planting plants from the nursery here, in to the now hollow logs ( gives away the photo hey?) and selling them at local markets

This is one of the hardest trees in Austrailia the termites ate it out and killed it (IMO)....

In the same trees you will find any number of (real) other ants, they seem to take over areas left by the termites ..Are they just eating eachother or are they also hurting the tree?

The pic is ironbark on the bottom, an old Yellowbox root on top of them, see the rock still in the right side? I cut it in half with the 46..dident do the chain much good, thats why I kept it, it was massive, this peice broke off..

When I get to cutting the grass it makes a nice seat...


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

What I really wanted to show/ask dident come out, way to close for this camera..

I will retake some shots of a Trilleana (?) so infested with black ants I cant get into the tree, they normally have a dark green bark, this tree is black with ants..

They are travelling into holes, could be old branches snaped off ( very brittle tree), every meter or so, what the inside must look like is somthing Im gunna wait on a bucket (EWP) to sort out...Not climbing that one, wait till you see where the domestic drop line is..
plus, even a healthy one , NO BUGS, (brisbane) Is increadibly dangerous to climb, never been in more fragile trees, they just fall apart at the slightest touch.. 

current roll, so it'll be a while..Ill prolly get them done at the one hour (plus the two hour drive), w/end mabey..

I sold hundreds of plants( all the good pics on print still) here are some leftovers "and strange things" pile of snake hidding spots..

Point being these trees were once perfectly healthy trees before the bugs came to town..They died 2 or 3 hundred years before there time. and I think the reason is clear..The tree doesent survive haveing its guts eaten out while its still alive..

Gord had some pics recently of a hollow tree he climbed, what hollows trees out over there...??Derek..

Aussie, got your PM..replying now..


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## Guy Meilleur (Nov 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Derek _
> * ..The tree doesent survive haveing its guts eaten out while its still alive.. , what hollows trees out over there...?? *


Derek, thanks for the great pictures. I have a bench by my pond that's constructed like yours, and I use hollow logs as planters here too--a $uper re-use of trash.

In your pix we can see a line demarcating decaying wood from sound wood. All the hollowing visible in your pix seems to have been started by decay fungi. The fungi send out enzymes which presoften the wood so it can be digested--remember the spitting Velociraptors in Jurassic Park?

The demarcation line is the extent of the enzyme's advance. sometimes it can look like a compartmentalization wall. But either way, what's inside of that line is rotting, made unstable by fungi.

The ants march in and out, indicating decay but not causing it that I can see. If you can show pix of ants entering sound wood and not just decayed wood, I'll believe that Australian ants can indeed make trees unstable.


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

Rot, Fungus, diease, BUGS...What did come first...

Still (more) confussed that ever!..


Are we talking bout "forGuy" pic??

I would of thought so..The Planters are now to dry to see any discoloration..

The yellow ring wasent there when i cut the tree down..
YES, now it does look like its rotting, or at least "pithey" and soft..

I recon its still real hard, I dont notice any "softness" in the other parts of it..

This is making me a little parioniod!!...Already 40 knots out side, off to do some more gums, in a while..are they going to blow over with me in them?? (chit that gust just shook the whole house! )

I can aggree in princable that "decay fungi" may be allowing ants into the tree, ON GUM TREES, but have some reservations on the ironbark, yellow box (Eucs)..they just dont ever seem to "break down" with out help from termites! An increadibly hard wood..

Are our Mistletoes over here starting the decay prosses in the tops of trees? they seem to kill the tree pretty easy to..

If i can get the chance before the w/end, a propity near me is full of stringy bark trees, (the same as in this thread,ie Lusas mill site)

Ill need some "excuse" to go drop a couple ("I need them to build a "bank" to put my "ripper mark 4" on)[that will do, true to]

Then I can show termites going into trees with no decay at all..


I have heaps more questions on the subject..

Got to go do battel with more rotton/bug infested Gums...

Hopefully I make it home tonight. Ill get some pics of the damage, 
(To the tree, not me!)....Derek..


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## ray benson (Nov 24, 2004)

A little research turned up the Texas Leaf Cutting Ant and the Allegheny Mound Ant.They damage trees- don't think they are extinct.
http://entowww.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/uc/uc-033.html
http://bugs.osu.edu/~bugdoc/Shetlar/factsheet/christmasstree/allegheny_mound_ants.htm
Ray


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## Derek (Nov 24, 2004)

As you will see from the first few words on this site, A GOVERNMENT site at that,,we are a bit lax with the term ant..

Not really bout trees, but the law is interesting....

Its illegle to have them..

http://www.logan.qld.gov.au/LCC/residents/pestcontrol/termites.htm


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## a_lopa (Dec 9, 2004)

*mr meullier*

ok guy,what are these guys doing :angel:i do like your opinions thou


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## a_lopa (Dec 9, 2004)

and look out a lurker may be interested  its all cool, love your pruning chit myself! youve only helped me really


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## NeTree (Dec 10, 2004)

Friday, December 10, 2004
Ants' tree snack leaves homeowner with big bill 
By Jason Tait 
Staff Writer 

METHUEN -- Two neighbors battling over a 150-year-old willow tree had their dispute settled yesterday -- by carpenter ants.

Ants ate through the core of the estimated 150-foot-tall tree, causing it to split away and crash into Wilfred Desruisseaux's 905 Riverside Drive home yesterday. The tree punched at least nine gaping holes in the roof and caused an estimated $50,000 in damage.

"I've been trying for three years to get them to take it down," Desruisseaux said of his backyard neighbors. They live at 35 Laurel Ave. and declined to comment.

Desruisseaux wasn't home at the time, but said he could have been hurt as part of the tree crashed through a skylight above his bed, showering glass and branches onto the comforter. 

"It's a disaster," Desruisseaux said, standing outside as workers tried clearing the mess and patching the roof with plywood.

Dan Caggiuca of Coast to Coast Tree Service said the fallen portion of the tree likely weighed more than 2,500 pounds. 

The tree could still pose a danger, Caggiuca said, as the second half could fall at anytime.

"If this weather gets bad, the rest of that could go," said Caggiuca, who has been hired to cut the remaining tree down with a crane -- a task he plans to do today. 

Desruisseaux said his insurance company will pay for the damages, which Caggiuca estimated would cost $50,000. 

Yesterday afternoon, workers from Jones and Company of Methuen put temporary plywood patches on the roof. Meanwhile, Desruisseaux is living at home, and said he hopes that his insurance company helps with the heating bills.


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## NeTree (Dec 15, 2004)

Actually Mike, I just thought it was a cool article and it seemed to flow with the theme here.

Whether the ants in the article chewed through the CODIT walls of that particular tree wasn't mentioned.

Keep yer pantyhose on...


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## NeTree (Dec 15, 2004)

Where the heck IS Guy??

Mike, not really- for the most part the ants appear to have limited their carpentry to areas of wood that appear to already be decayed; although in #10 towards the top it would appear they have caverned into an area that looks free of decay.


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## NeTree (Dec 15, 2004)

It's irrelevant.


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## NeTree (Dec 16, 2004)

Nice to have you back, Mike.


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## NeTree (Dec 16, 2004)

Aw... why so bitter?


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## a_lopa (Dec 16, 2004)

so what are you saying mike?,there good for trees  if shigo said it i must be wrong.if its not in his books it doesnt exist,when youve got a real argument let me know


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## NeTree (Dec 16, 2004)

Don't mind Mike... his hiatus obviously hasn't helped his disposition.


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## a_lopa (Dec 16, 2004)

i find it funny that mikes studied pictures from a cell phone camera


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## a_lopa (Dec 16, 2004)

i think you may need to read the heading to this thread


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## NeTree (Dec 16, 2004)

Mike, I think the relevant issue is whether or not the ants' removal of even unsound wood can weaken the tree structurally enough to cause failure at least sometimes, not whether the ants themselves are the cause of the decay. Hence, the CODIT issue is irrelevant.

No, not all trees with ants _are_ unsafe. But, in my opinion, yes- ants _can_ make trees unsafe.


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## a_lopa (Dec 16, 2004)

how about mike show a picture of anything,one pic of feeding a chipper with so much knowledge hmmmmm..............


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## Derek (Dec 18, 2004)

*more MM knowlage?*

For all your expertise, MM , and thanx for jumping in a month late, 

YES ANTS ARE BAD FOR TREES!..Rembember there is a world outside your tiny little mind, even other countries..Cause i doubt you know...

How do you, a TERRORIST supporter feel about ants in trees, are they invaiding something they shouldent, this would be cool with you??

Next time you have some imput, get some advice, try AS ..You MIGHT learn somthing..Ohhh but you will have to read it first, not go by the title and add your piddely bit..


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## NeTree (Dec 18, 2004)

Derek... dude... simmer down. *warning*

While I disagree in large part to Mike's ascertion, is that tone necessary?


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike, you ROCK!


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## a_lopa (Dec 18, 2004)

so where do you stand on ''do ants make trees unsafe'' :Eye:


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## Stumper (Dec 18, 2004)

I think that the tree fooled the ants into thinking they were safe . They didn't know about aussie. The tree really made the ants unsafe. Aussie you HOMEWRECKER.


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## a_lopa (Dec 18, 2004)

Mike Maas said:


> Are you saying that tree died from ants, or ants moved in after the tree started dying?



i didnt say anything
:angel: :angel:


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## a_lopa (Dec 18, 2004)

ants dont really bother me,there getting a feed, im cutting the tree down everyones happy


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## a_lopa (Dec 18, 2004)

The ants have helped make it more unsound,there not helping matters,maybe they could just not eat! http://arborist.************/attachment_19495.php


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## a_lopa (Dec 19, 2004)

Mike Maas said:


> Are your pictures and typed words supposed to suggest that ants significantly make trees unsafe?


 its ok mike


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## Toddppm (Dec 19, 2004)

Rot makes trees unsafe.


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## a_lopa (Dec 20, 2004)

shigo noticed a few things on a trip down here(not related to ants)ill be honest mike that tree was in wet ground pushing the dirt into the cavity the ants created


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## jkrueger (Dec 20, 2004)

Mike Maas said:


> I
> 
> [deletion]
> 
> ...



Yea ants, yea ants. I'll only flame an anti ant person cause it's correct.

Jack


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## a_lopa (Dec 21, 2004)

alot of editing going on mike, :angel:


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## a_lopa (Dec 23, 2004)

another "reader"




Tom Dunlap said:


> Erik,
> 
> Have you found out how strong decayed wood is compared to healthy wood? I'll bet that when you do find that stat you'll see that air is only a smidgeon stronger than decayed wood.
> 
> ...


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## NeTree (Dec 23, 2004)

Tom Dunlop said:


> "Opening up to new ideas that are based on research is a way to learn. You don't have to accept all of the research but it seems pretty limiting to me if you deny it all."



Who's research? 

That statement goes BOTH ways, Tom. To dismiss what TreeMachine and I have been "playing" with is pretty limiting, too.

All the research I've read on the issue is more concerned with the biological aspect, and none on the engineering. Trees are wonderful living organisms, but they're also feats of engineering; when one steps back and looks at the engineering involved, one gets a bigger picture of what KEEPS a tree standing. What MAKES some woods stronger than others? How much wood is enough to keep a tree from failing at a given point? These are engineering questions, not biology alone.

Give it some honest thought.


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## NeTree (Dec 23, 2004)

Mike Maas said:


> Eric (I spelled it right this time)



I missed it the first time, but no... it's still misspelled.


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## Derek (Dec 23, 2004)

Derek said:


> For all your expertise, [edit], and thanx for jumping in a month late,
> 
> YES ANTS ARE BAD FOR TREES [ heaps of editing]
> 
> Next time you have some imput, get some advice, try AS ..You MIGHT learn somthing..Ohhh but you will have to read it first, not go by the title and add your piddely bit..




Hmmmm, mabey I WAS the first to bring the baggage from the [editited]thread to here, my responce to [edited]

My appoliges are offered to all [edited].

Just saw a "year in reveiw" type show on Sky news, [edited in the name of "getting along"]

Or do i get another warning?? or banned? and dont need it anymore..Derek.

ENOUGH OF THE ANTS, CERTAINLY MY LAST POST ON THE SUBJECT!!!!!!!!!!!

guess it wasent my last post after all?..this should be though.. i hope we can get over it now, Derek..


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## NeTree (Dec 23, 2004)

I know the Oxman thread, but I _try_ to leave what happens "over there"... well, there.

Don't sweat the small stuff, Derek. You're always welcome here.


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## a_lopa (Dec 23, 2004)

might be time to lock this one down


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 23, 2004)

Mike has a point, just not a good bedside manner.


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## ray benson (Dec 31, 2004)

These Giganticus Feller Buncher Ants can wreak havoc.Believe the preferred method of elimination is a shotgun.


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## Keener (Dec 31, 2004)

Since the original question was "what has been your experience here" I thought I would add my one cent worth.
On the coast I have seen carpenter ants enlarge their galleries significantly in Western Red Cedar and also in Douglas Fir to a lesser degree.
This enlargment was into sound wood past what looked like it had been affected by decay organisms.
In the cedar, I have seen trees on houses that had snapped 3 to 4 ft off the ground that had a healthy looking canopy.
I think that some rot must be present first then as the colony gets larger they will mine into sound wood if the colony population requires.
I have seen many cedars with large frass piles that looked the same color and texture as what comes off the woodmizer when milling sound wood.
But all this is just my 1 cent worth and I think our west coast ants run Husky saws.


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## Stumper (Dec 31, 2004)

Keener said:


> I think our west coast ants run Husky saws.


To quote Solomon; "Consider the ant thou sluggard". If Huskies are what the ants run then they are the right saws!


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## DanMan1 (Jan 10, 2005)

I didn't know about this thread. For anyone interested, I posted an interesting photo I shot under the chainsaw forum thread name "carpenter ants love SOFT wood". It won't let me upload it here also.


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## spacemule (Jan 10, 2005)

DanMan1 said:


> I didn't know about this thread. For anyone interested, I posted an interesting photo I shot under the chainsaw forum thread name "carpenter ants love SOFT wood". It won't let me upload it here also.


Here you go.


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## a_lopa (Jan 19, 2005)

i talked about trunk flare earlier.kids cubby house in line of fall of this tree.the last pics for mike, see there keeping there tunnel open.camera phone pics.


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