# Soft Maple for cabin?



## frogy (Feb 17, 2010)

Guys I would like to build a log cabin for a small hunting camp (about 200 sq ft) but there are no pines on the property but I have a lot of soft maple in the swamp that are straight and very few limbs, I would like to know if they could work?


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## timberwolf (Feb 17, 2010)

Maple has a very low rot resistance if it has any exposure to moisture.


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## chuckwood (Feb 17, 2010)

*rot resistance*



timberwolf said:


> Maple has a very low rot resistance if it has any exposure to moisture.



So does pine. Soft maple should be easy to drive nails in. Why not use it and just coat it liberally with wood preservative?


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## madman39 (Feb 17, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing!:monkey:


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## jimdad07 (Feb 17, 2010)

I would find some hemlock or cedar if you can for the bottom course of logs and then have at it with the maple. Thompson's water seal would work well.


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## clearance (Feb 17, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> I would find some hemlock or cedar if you can for the bottom course of logs and then have at it with the maple. Thompson's water seal would work well.



Hemlock is called hemrot here, only used for inside use. Whats up with pine? Lots of places built with pine logs.


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## jimdad07 (Feb 17, 2010)

clearance said:


> Hemlock is called hemrot here, only used for inside use. Whats up with pine? Lots of places built with pine logs.



I apologize, I meant to say tamarack. I have a friend who built a camp with tamarack about fifteen years ago and it is holding up quite well, of course it gets treated every couple of seasons.


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## RPM (Feb 17, 2010)

Just get it up off of the ground and out of the dirt...couple of sono tubes and build the floor on some large CSM beams?


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Maple has a very low rot resistance if it has any exposure to moisture.


There isn't much wood that won't rot when exposed to water...and to compound it water attracts bugs also, so you get the double whammie!

Almost all log homes that are not maintained properly will get rot if they are not sealed properly and left to the elements. That rot attracts bugs, and the cycle continues but even worse.

Nothing wrong with soft maple, heck, I think any wood could work for a cabin, just use a good stain/sealer on the wood. I like Sansin, it's water based. I'm planning to use it on the log home I'm building, and have tested it on the inside of my home office/workshop. My log home is being built mostly with eastern white pine, but rafters will be Doug Fir. Leave the ends exposed and don't seal it and they're sure to rot also, as you suggest for the soft maple. Taken care of properly, most any wood will last a lifetime and then some...


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

clearance said:


> Hemlock is called hemrot here, only used for inside use. Whats up with pine? Lots of places built with pine logs.


It's a great wood to work with. Hemlock is known for severe twisting, and unwinding. Any wood will rot when you get down to it, given the right environment. Take care of any of them and they will last a long, long time.


jimdad07 said:


> I apologize, I meant to say tamarack. I have a friend who built a camp with tamarack about fifteen years ago and it is holding up quite well, of course it gets treated every couple of seasons.


Tamarack is known for checking, and it's hard to work with from what I've been told. I have never worked any of it.


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## clearance (Feb 18, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> It's a great wood to work with. Hemlock is known for severe twisting, and unwinding. Any wood will rot when you get down to it, given the right environment. Take care of any of them and they will last a long, long time.
> 
> Tamarack is known for checking, and it's hard to work with from what I've been told. I have never worked any of it.



Douglas fir is used on docks, it lasts quite a while, hemlock never is. And red cedar, wow, you can rip of a foot of rot and have solid wood, on big trees cut down and left before ww2. Walk into into old second growth sometime, the only logs or chunks left will be cedar, everything else is gone.

But you are right about looking after it, big overhangs and steep roofs help a lot as well.


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## isaaccarlson (Feb 18, 2010)

*just make sure you have good overhangs*

they make or break a cabin. If they are too short you get wet walls. go for about three feet.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

clearance said:


> Douglas fir is used on docks, it lasts quite a while, hemlock never is. And red cedar, wow, you can rip of a foot of rot and have solid wood, on big trees cut down and left before ww2. Walk into into old second growth sometime, the only logs or chunks left will be cedar, everything else is gone.


I had some cedar I was carving with a chainsaw, the bark is brutal on the chains as it contains a massive amount of silica in it. The wood itself is sure beautiful, once the bark is off.


clearance said:


> But you are right about looking after it, big overhangs and steep roofs help a lot as well.


That is the key to most all homes built with wood, the bigger the overhang the better, and if you can have wrap around covered porches, all the better. I wanted a full wrap around porch on the log home I'm building but had to make some sacrifices and settled for full length front and rear porches, the rear has a patio below for the walkout to give me another covered area, but I'm pouring cement on the floor (hence a patio).


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## timberwolf (Feb 18, 2010)

> So does pine. Soft maple should be easy to drive nails in. Why not use it and just coat it liberally with wood preservative?



Yes, all wood rots, none will resist rot for ever. Just maple is one of the worst in this area, right there with basswood and birch. Softwoods (pines, spruce, larch, ceder ect)at least have some extra resins and tanins to help them out. A good way to look at rot resistance is how long dead trees stand. If a birch or basswood dies they seldom stand for more than a year or two, maple or poplar not much better. Dead elms in fence rows and dead cedars in flooded beaver swamps often stand decades. Even standing dead pines and spruce will hold up 5-10 years. 

Maple or birch gets nailed really quick by fungus and spalts, pine (lots of range there between spiecies) does not infect so easily with fungus. A maple board left on the ground will spalt in just a couple months at least in the climate of this area, about a year and the board would have no structual strength. Seems the oaks, cedars and even elms are amoung the best though for common woods that stand the test of time.

But like was mentioned the key is to keep the logs dry no matter what they are. The pioneers no doubt either built homes where the wood was good or built with what was on hand. No matter what the wood a log structure is likely to be still standing half a century after a chip board stud framed building has crumbled. 

Lots of old log buildings and homes in this area, many well past 100 years old some 200 years.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> Maple or birch gets nailed really quick by fungus and spalts


And therein lies the problem, you need moisture for fungus and spalting. Any wood will rot with water.


timberwolf said:


> But like was mentioned the key is to keep the logs dry no matter what they are. The pioneers no doubt either built homes where the wood was good or built with what was on hand. No matter what the wood a log structure is likely to be still standing half a century after a chip board stud framed building has crumbled.


I think we're on the same page, the moisture is the killer for it. In some cases old log homes would be standing, but it really depends on many factors. Not all of them are standing today from 100 years+. 


timberwolf said:


> Lots of old log buildings and homes in this area, many well past 100 years old some 200 years.


Most of those are probably dovetailed. The half dovetail sheds water away from the joinery, one of the reasons I'm using it on my log home.

Also, it was common for folks to cover the log homes with siding, since there was an association with "log cabins" for housing slaves. Having a home that resembled a log cabin wasn't desirable, so a lot of people put siding on them, and still to this day more and more are discovered as they peel the siding off. Also, because of this association, Mackie makes note in his books why he doesn't use the term "log cabin", and I kind of agree and don't tend to use it myself, and just call them log homes or log houses. Modern structures are nothing like "cabins" for the most part anyway, and have modern appliances just like modern homes.

You made a good point though, because people would often use the wood they had on their land, and I don't think soft maple will be any worse than any other type of wood, if cared for properly.

I would suggest:

1) keep the sills off the ground, raise the foundation at least 1 1/2' - 2', so that the water doesn't splash up on and rot the bottom logs.

2) big overhangs on the roof. The larger the better. If you can have them 2'-3' that will protect the logs/wood better.

3) Don't stick the ends of the logs/wood out, IOW, don't build with outrigger type eaves. That was common in the Arts & Crafts era, and it looks really cool (check the Gamble House out), but when they restored the Gamble House they learned that all of them rotted, and they spent an enormous amount of money restoring them to original. I think they should have covered them with copper or changed them, but they would not have been original. There's a lesson in the Gamble House, that even Greene & Greene did in fact screw up on their designs. We have the advantage of learning from the past. A great book on buildings, although I warn you he is not too fond of timber structures because they are difficult to maintain, "How Buildings Learn: What Happens After They're Built" by Stuart Brand.

4) Apply and maintain stain/sealer on a regular basis, and make certain to continue to check for bugs. Spray borates on the logs when you cut them, and seal them good, when built. But don't forget to continue checking. If you see/hear woodpeckers on your house, that's a sign there is bugs in the wood, otherwise they wouldn't be pecking. Keep an eye out for carpenter beetles, carpenter ants, etc...

As long as you keep the wood dry you should be fine. Raising the foundation is important as the water will splash on the bottom logs/wood otherwise and that will wear the stain/sealer off and eventually cause rot.


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## r.man (Feb 18, 2010)

*log type*

My father built a log hunting camp in three stages starting about 60 some years ago. He used poplar logs which around here are definitely not in the top five of species for rot resistance. Today I would call it in excellent shape considering it got used 2 - 3 weeks a year, it's in the shade and I don't think it ever had preservative on it. What it does have is a good overhang on the roof. He built it with the poplar because they were there, the right size and straight. To each his own.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 18, 2010)

r.man said:


> My father built a log hunting camp in three stages starting about 60 some years ago. He used poplar logs which around here are definitely not in the top five of species for rot resistance. Today I would call it in excellent shape considering it got used 2 - 3 weeks a year, it's in the shade and I don't think it ever had preservative on it. What it does have is a good overhang on the roof. He built it with the poplar because they were there, the right size and straight. To each his own.



That's the secret, big eves and get it up off the ground. Then keep a good roof on it, and it will last a long long time...

Those three things are "by far" more important than what kind of logs are used.

Rob


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## frogy (Feb 18, 2010)

Thx so much for all the great input, it looks like it should work out if we put enough overhang and place it off the ground which brought out another question. What is a sono tube? Thx again.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

frogy said:


> Thx so much for all the great input, it looks like it should work out if we put enough overhang and place it off the ground which brought out another question. What is a sono tube? Thx again.


A sono tube is a circular piece of cardboard that you pour cement in. There's some pics of what they end up looking like in the gazebo thread. Here's the pic:







Typically you wouldn't put the entire house on them, and more often they are used for porch posts, and what I plan to use for my porches. Often people will put rock around them to make them more attractive.


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## jimdad07 (Feb 18, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> A sono tube is a circular piece of cardboard that you pour cement in. There's some pics of what they end up looking like in the gazebo thread. Here's the pic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice looking project


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 18, 2010)

jimdad07 said:


> Nice looking project


Jim,

Actually that's not my project, this is what I'm building:







You can read more about it in this thread. While the logs I'm building with have the sides milled flat, and are planed smooth, they resemble a tree for the most part and retain the live edge of the tree after it is cut. This is important, and considered to be a handcrafted log home.

I had a friend help me start it, and getting a rental yard setup out in California where I will finish it. I will move the home to a piece of lakefront property I have in NorCal, a few hours from where my house is that I live in now. My plan is to leave this log home to my 2 kids, a son that is in his first year at UCLA majoring in Design/Media Art, and a daughter who is a freshman in High School. Recently I bought a sawmill, which you can read about in this thread in this forum.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but feel free to reply in either of those other threads if you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to answer any Qs you have about how the work is done, the style, or anything else on your mind.


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## timberwolf (Feb 19, 2010)

Nice looking building, I was also thinking on a log hunt camp project this summer. I have a few good pines some not bad spruce but would rather not take many few old pines (maybe one or two for shakes). My plan was going to use poplar logs. Far from ideal, but they grow like weeds and have hundreds of straight clear truncks to choose from. But in the end I am now planning on a more easily transportable structure. Rot was a concern for me when I was thinking of poplar, picked a nice dry rocky knoll and was going to put it up on peers.





> And therein lies the problem, you need moisture for fungus and spalting. Any wood will rot with water.



Not trying to split hairs, but water alone is maybe not the problem. They are pulling decade old logs from river beds and milling quality lumber from them. Little oxygen and cold water slows the chemical breakdown. The water in that case prevents many of the normal wood to soil converting microbes from having their way. Old fence posts are a good example, they will rot off at ground level, the wood above may be sound and the wood a foot down in clay may be sound, but it's that area where they have both moisture and oxygen for the microbial action that gets done in. Some woods have dry rot problems too, the balsom poles in our 100 year old barn are crumbling while the cedar and ash are solid as day one. 

What about moinsture content of maple, could that be a potential trouble? Maybe worth falling the trees before they fill with sap in the spring?


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 19, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> My plan was going to use poplar logs. Far from ideal, but they grow like weeds and have hundreds of straight clear truncks to choose from. But in the end I am now planning on a more easily transportable structure. Rot was a concern for me when I was thinking of poplar, picked a nice dry rocky knoll and was going to put it up on peers.


Many people have built structures out of poplar, and they have stood the test of time. Hard to find larger diameter is my understanding, but it is usually pretty clear. I have seen dovetailed homes out of it, as I have oak, pine, chesnut (lots before the blight), hemlock, etc...I think it gets down to what you mentioned before, people used what they had on hand.

It was once said, that with an ax, mule, and 5 acres of wooded land, you could build a life for yourself...


timberwolf said:


> Not trying to split hairs, but water alone is maybe not the problem. They are pulling decade old logs from river beds and milling quality lumber from them. Little oxygen and cold water slows the chemical breakdown.


Sure, but most structures have to deal with air/oxygen, it's a given.

A friend of mine rescued these HUGE Doug Fir beams/girder-sticks from the Welland canal, they were under water for years...when they modernized lock 8, he was able to get them.
















Here's what the flooring looked like that was milled out of that stuff, and this doesn't have finish on it yet...(a log home in Lake Tahoe)








timberwolf said:


> The water in that case prevents many of the normal wood to soil converting microbes from having their way. Old fence posts are a good example, they will rot off at ground level, the wood above may be sound and the wood a foot down in clay may be sound, but it's that area where they have both moisture and oxygen for the microbial action that gets done in. Some woods have dry rot problems too, the balsom poles in our 100 year old barn are crumbling while the cedar and ash are solid as day one.


Absolutely! :agree2: 


timberwolf said:


> What about moinsture content of maple, could that be a potential trouble? Maybe worth falling the trees before they fill with sap in the spring?


Most all trees will be easier to get the bark off and peel if you fell them in the winter, so I'm told. I have done some drawknifing though and it's HARD work...the trick is to pull with your body and not your arms, but it takes some practice to get down...it will wear the best of men into the ground, in my experience...


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## frogy (Feb 22, 2010)

*Took the plunge*

Well I took all your input and took the big step I got about 500' feet of 8"to 10" diameter soft maple logs cut and skidded to the site. Now I could use some ideas on how long to dry and how to store them if you would. Thx.


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