# How many new saws?



## logging22 (Apr 17, 2012)

I was just wondering about how many new saws loggers in different parts of the country use in a year? I bought seven new saws last year. Traded three in, kept the others as backup saws. What say ye??:msp_smile:


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## imagineero (Apr 17, 2012)

Funny thing... I was just sitting down tonight trying to work out how many saws I buy a year on average. We were trying to work out some more accurate estimates of the yearly cost of running the business. I worked out its an average of about 4 new saws a year for our residential tree service. I bought a couple used ones last year too, but they dont really count. Saws definitely aren't the biggest expense though. It can get a little depressing when you sit down and look at all the numbers :-(

Shaun


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## gsg (Apr 17, 2012)

I seem to get about 6 months out of a saw these days.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 17, 2012)

When I was cutting I was usually getting a new power head every 18 months, one per year in the really busy years. 

The last big company I worked for was buying two new landing saws a month. This was more due to abuse than anything. 
One big company near me (runs six sides on average) buys around 35 power heads/year.


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## Greystoke (Apr 17, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> When I was cutting I was usually getting a new power head every 18 months, one per year in the really busy years.
> 
> The last big company I worked for was buying two new landing saws a month. This was more due to abuse than anything.
> One big company near me (runs six sides on average) buys around 35 power heads/year.



I used this timeline when I was falling timber as well. It amazes me know that I am a tree climber at how much money I can make with 2 gallons of gas.


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## ShaneLogs (Apr 17, 2012)

I go about a year a new saw and only about 4-6 months before I get a new bar and chain


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## imagineero (Apr 18, 2012)

tarzanstree said:


> I used this timeline when I was falling timber as well. It amazes me know that I am a tree climber at how much money I can make with 2 gallons of gas.



+1 on that! A tankful in my 200T is probably worth an average of about $300.


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## Greystoke (Apr 18, 2012)

imagineero said:


> +1 on that! A tankful in my 200T is probably worth an average of about $300.



That sounds about right. I bought a roll of 3/8 lo profile chain for my top handled tree saws when I first started climbing in 06...it might last my career!


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## slowp (Apr 18, 2012)

tarzanstree said:


> That sounds about right. I bought a roll of 3/8 lo profile chain for my top handled tree saws when I first started climbing in 06...it might last my career!



Are you better today? Real words instead of #### ?:msp_smile:


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## Greystoke (Apr 18, 2012)

All better today Patty. Dang pain pills I'm takin and Randy messin with me...could not help myself


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## wowzers (Apr 18, 2012)

We got one new landing saw last year. However we do quite a bit of work on our to stretch them out.


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## redprospector (Apr 18, 2012)

When I was cuttin' for the mill I bought a new saw once a year. The old saw was moved to backup, and the old backup would get sold........well, sometimes not if I really liked it.
Now that I've been demoted to a thinning contractor I'll use a saw a little longer, if somebody doesn't tear it up. Last year I switched from Dolmar to Stihl so I bought a few more than normal, I bought one 7900 before I gave up on my dealer. Then I bought a couple of new 460's, a used 460 and a used 440, then I bought 2 new ms261's for lop & scatter. I'm really hoping that I don't have to buy any saws this year. Maybe I'll sell off a few of the old 7900's.

Andy


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## RandyMac (Apr 19, 2012)

tarzanstree said:


> All better today Patty. Dang pain pills I'm takin and Randy messin with me...could not help myself



Oh sure ####er


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## Oldtimer (Apr 19, 2012)

Been logging and doing firewood for right about 20 years.

For myself, not counting "partners" who I shed in due course, I have had 5 saws, one I rebuilt after it seized. 2 got crushed beyond repair, or I'd still be running them. 1 got traded in towards the 357XP.

I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a _*lot*_ of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it.


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## Slamm (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm not getting the fast turn around either. I had a 441, 260 and 660's that I "had" for 4-7 years before they were stolen and some had never had a carb kit in them. For most of their lives they ate 100LL AV gas and Amsoil Saber oil and they were all ported, no stock saws. I had bent some hands and broken some plastic here and there, but never did I sell one due to the fact that a new one was better or started better.

I have cut with other "loggers" or for other loggers and I find its pretty much just shear abuse that kills them, requiring the shorter lifespan. I sure don't baby mine, but I don't throw them around either, and I think I can handle one in the cut pretty good so they aren't always getting the guts dawged out of them. Some people can cut trees down, but really don't have very good saw handling skills and the saw takes the brunt of the force instead of seeing it about to happen and feathering the trigger or something, who knows. I get longer life out of most anything though, where as, I know others that could damage an anvil, there is a wide range of operators in between.

Sam


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## Greystoke (Apr 19, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Oh sure ####er



There you go, ####in with me again... ###############################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################:rant: otstir:  ornery ####er ain't ya  That's alright, so am I:msp_thumbup:


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## Greystoke (Apr 19, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Been logging and doing firewood for right about 20 years.
> 
> For myself, not counting "partners" who I shed in due course, I have had 5 saws, one I rebuilt after it seized. 2 got crushed beyond repair, or I'd still be running them. 1 got traded in towards the 357XP.
> 
> I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a _*lot*_ of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it.



I was never negligent with my saws, but I was sure never cutting firewood neither...Most of my tenure was West Coast Busheling...burning on average 2 gallons of gas in 6 to 7 hours on modded saws with laser chains...I had to lay down lots of wood to make money and I sure was not gonna #### around with a saw that started giving me problems because of the sheer amount of wood that it had been through.


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## paccity (Apr 19, 2012)

probably should stay out of this but ,,. some of these men put down more boardfeet of timber in one season to another s 10 seasons. not to start a pissin match over one coast over the other ,but i,ve seen the decks from some of these and i'm not seeing as much lumber laying . some people need to come out and spend a little time on some big strips out here and see the differentiates . a smart faller dont abuse his saws he wears them out. just sayin. hope the ramble made sence. theses pills are good.:msp_unsure:


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## Greystoke (Apr 19, 2012)

paccity said:


> theses pills are good.:msp_unsure:



What kinda pills ya takin pard?


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## paccity (Apr 19, 2012)

oxicodine. what do they have you on?


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## Greystoke (Apr 19, 2012)

I was on those too, but just takin tylenol now...I try to avoid the strong ones ifn I can.


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## Sport Faller (Apr 19, 2012)

Are you savin em for the GTG to share :msp_biggrin:


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## Greystoke (Apr 19, 2012)

No way! Do you know the pain I had to go through to get mine? :msp_smile:


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 19, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Been logging and doing firewood for right about 20 years.
> 
> For myself, not counting "partners" who I shed in due course, I have had 5 saws, one I rebuilt after it seized. 2 got crushed beyond repair, or I'd still be running them. 1 got traded in towards the 357XP.
> 
> I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a _*lot*_ of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it.





Slamm said:


> I'm not getting the fast turn around either. I had a 441, 260 and 660's that I "had" for 4-7 years before they were stolen and some had never had a carb kit in them. For most of their lives they ate 100LL AV gas and Amsoil Saber oil and they were all ported, no stock saws. I had bent some hands and broken some plastic here and there, but never did I sell one due to the fact that a new one was better or started better.
> 
> I have cut with other "loggers" or for other loggers and I find its pretty much just shear abuse that kills them, requiring the shorter lifespan. I sure don't baby mine, but I don't throw them around either, and I think I can handle one in the cut pretty good so they aren't always getting the guts dawged out of them. Some people can cut trees down, but really don't have very good saw handling skills and the saw takes the brunt of the force instead of seeing it about to happen and feathering the trigger or something, who knows. I get longer life out of most anything though, where as, I know others that could damage an anvil, there is a wide range of operators in between.
> 
> Sam




Ok so you guys are loggers back east we have em out west. There are DIFFERENCES between the two. So instead of taking years of falling or just a generalized statement. Not meant to disrespect anyone. Oldtimer and Slamm you guys say you haven't gone through many saws. I believe you and that you aren't abusing them. Lots of West coast fallers go through a saw a year as stated by some on here. It's not because it was abused but because they were wore out, or nearly so, and got a newer saw to stay reliable and therefore not waste anytime.

Instead of talking in relative terms, how bout we throw a little science in here. I'm asking for a comparison. Not to start a pissing match but to get this West Coast vs East Coast crap sorted out. So back to the comparison. I would like to hear how much timber you cut a year wether it be in mbf, cord, or acres and we'll compare the two.

The reason I want to do a comparison is to be more scientific than someones relative "alot." Time in years is not important. It's the amount of time that has been put on the piece of equipment. Yes service and abuse are key to over-all life of a piece of equipment. Taking an estimate of how many hours you run your saw a day and extrapolating it out to a full work year is a little too in-exact so thats my reasoning behind some sort of more accurately counted number.


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## carguy (Apr 19, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Ok so you guys are loggers back east we have em out west. There are DIFFERENCES between the two. So instead of taking years of falling or just a generalized statement. Not meant to disrespect anyone. Oldtimer and Slamm you guys say you haven't gone through many saws. I believe you and that you aren't abusing them. Lots of West coast fallers go through a saw a year as stated by some on here. It's not because it was abused but because they were wore out, or nearly so, and got a newer saw to stay reliable and therefore not waste anytime.
> 
> Instead of talking in relative terms, how bout we throw a little science in here. I'm asking for a comparison. Not to start a pissing match but to get this West Coast vs East Coast crap sorted out. So back to the comparison. I would like to hear how much timber you cut a year wether it be in mbf, cord, or acres and we'll compare the two.
> 
> The reason I want to do a comparison is to be more scientific than someones relative "alot." Time in years is not important. It's the amount of time that has been put on the piece of equipment. Yes service and abuse are key to over-all life of a piece of equipment. Taking an estimate of how many hours you run your saw a day and extrapolating it out to a full work year is a little too in-exact so thats my reasoning behind some sort of more accurately counted number.



This is a good idea, however several factors should be taken in to account. I believe that the number of hours of use, the number of gallons of fuel used, and if possible an estimate of the total area of all the kurfs. These three criteria would help to filter out diameter and hieght differences between the East and West coast trees. Granted there is a difference in the makeup of trees between the coasts but there would at least be something measurable.


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## RandyMac (Apr 19, 2012)

Most of my experience doesn't apply, anymore, the world moved on.
However, a year's use is about right. My McCullochs needed a hone job and rings or rebore and piston after a season. Those 20 minute bucking cuts add up fast toward operating hours.
The old all metal chainsaws were different, you might get 3-4 years out of it before things got too loose.
West coast forests have far more trees per acre, second growth aka "doghair" means the saw is subjected to sustained full power use. I remember what the second growth Redwoods did to my PM850 in just three months time. I might have cut 50 36" trees, but didn't get 100 feet from the day's first stump. A year in that stuff is equal to two years select cutting in the Sierras.


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## redprospector (Apr 19, 2012)

Sam, & oldtimer,

It's not always about wearing out, or tearing up a saw. Heck, I've still got a 288xp I bought in 89. It's still good enough that it could last most folks on this site the rest of their lives.
I have worn out some saws, and they might have made it for several years if I wanted to keep rebuilding them. Any saw that gives me much problem is replaced, muy pronto.
The main reason for the rotation of saws (at least for me) is this thing the gubment invented....A tax deduction. I can give it to my dealer, or I can give it to Uncle Sam. I like my dealer, not so much Uncle Sam. So I buy new saws.

Andy


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## Gologit (Apr 19, 2012)

redprospector said:


> Sam, & oldtimer,
> 
> It's not always about wearing out, or tearing up a saw. Heck, I've still got a 288xp I bought in 89. It's still good enough that it could last most folks on this site the rest of their lives.
> I have worn out some saws, and they might have made it for several years if I wanted to keep rebuilding them. Any saw that gives me much problem is replaced, muy pronto.
> ...



Yup, The depreciation schedule is our friend.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 19, 2012)

Out here in the west, straight falling jobs are the killer of saws these days. Try dumping 350-550 stems a day straight down the hill with a stem diameter average 
of around 14". That will flat wear a saw out in a year easily. I worked a straight falling job on Seneca ground that was 4.25 million board feet in just over five months 
with four guys cutting full time.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 19, 2012)

Mountain hardwood timber. about 2.3 mmbf/yr. plus about 150 loads of pulpwood. In about 175 work days /year, realistically. Avg bdft/tree, maybe 200. bdft per acre? anywhere from 3 mbf to 10 plus. About a saw year, any longer and I'm millking it too much, and I go into Jacob J's rotation, and the third gets sold off to a logger or whoever. And I agree, these "wore out" saws are hot #### to about anyone else but a faller, but not satisfactory for a full time faller. this is pretty rough, but close enough for discussion

I'd say the hardest thing ona saw is the guys running it like it has a sharp chain- I hate hearing a saw out there running hard with a dull chain. I do like the grinder, the most I ever run a chain is 6 tanks. I run usually 10 tanks through my 660 per day. With a lesser chain I bet that'd be 13 tanks and half the trees


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## Slamm (Apr 20, 2012)

Midwest hardwood, cut, limb and top myself 1-2 million BF and some of the other cutters are in the same range. I don't care if others wear stuff out, most everything that I own lasts longer with me than with others.

I cut for at least solid 3 years with my first 660 and it still ran just as good the last tree as the first, then it was stolen here 7 years later, still ran great.

I cut with guys that go through a saw each year ........ I also see why they go through a saw each year. I can assure you they don't think they are harder on a piece of equipment than I am, but the difference is in the little things.

Sam


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## 056 kid (Apr 20, 2012)

Well you are just extra special Slamm.. 

At the end of every day I look like I have been chilling in a tornado. my gear sees the same. . . I do work though. . . .


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## redprospector (Apr 20, 2012)

Slamm said:


> Midwest hardwood, cut, limb and top myself 1-2 million BF and some of the other cutters are in the same range. I don't care if others wear stuff out, most everything that I own lasts longer with me than with others.
> 
> I cut for at least solid 3 years with my first 660 and it still ran just as good the last tree as the first, then it was stolen here 7 years later, still ran great.
> 
> ...



Sam,
If you ran that 660 for 7 years, you missed out on 6 1200 to 1500 dollar tax deductions. I know a saw can last a long time, but I'd rather support my local dealer than the GSA.

Andy


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2012)

redprospector said:


> Sam,
> If you ran that 660 for 7 years, you missed out on 6 1200 to 1500 dollar tax deductions. I know a saw can last a long time, but I'd rather support my local dealer than the GSA.
> 
> Andy



Yup.


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## imagineero (Apr 20, 2012)

I got one of brads 660's off Matt who decided to go all husky and it came with a works connection tach zippy tied on the side of the wrap handle. It's tiny and super fast, which makes tuning super easy and lets you keep an eye on things. The addictive thing about it is that it's also an hour meter. You rack up a lot less machine hours in a full day than what you think, even if you only stop to fuel up and then keep going. I'd be surprised if anybody could rack up 4 hours of machine time on a saw in a day, unless they leave the saw idling all the time. 

We lean seized one of my 044's a couple weeks ago. I knew it was running lean, but it was one of the backup 044's that doesnt see much trigger time. Every time I'd hear someone run it I'd remember it needed adjusting but I'd be up a tree and yell down to put it aside. Well, the inevitable happened, it got ran when I wasn't on site and seized her up real good. Prompted me to order a stack of tachs for all the saws. OEM P&C in aus for an 044 is $860. I went aftermarket for $140. Even at that price, a tach is worth having. 

And don't give me that crap about tuning in the cut either. 

Shaun


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## Oldtimer (Apr 20, 2012)

I worked alone for 16+ years of the 20 or so I have been doing this. I had 2 saws most always, but favored one most of the time. I would have to dig out all my trucking slips and then try to put a number on all the cords of wood, then the tree work, and then the incidental stuff.....and remember too that limbing every single tree out must also be counted as feet cut...and every pushed over sapling that gets cut down, and brush that gets lopped...and every log bucked on the landing must be counted as feet cut...so yeah, many many millions of feet. Hell, I bet 50 million is a low number. 
Also, I repair if possible.

This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 20, 2012)

carguy said:


> This is a good idea, however several factors should be taken in to account. I believe that the number of hours of use, the number of gallons of fuel used, and if possible an estimate of the total area of all the kurfs. These three criteria would help to filter out diameter and hieght differences between the East and West coast trees. Granted there is a difference in the makeup of trees between the coasts but there would at least be something measurable.



Thats why I wanted mbf, or cord, or acres its much easier to quantify than actual hours and doing anything more would really just clutter up what the goal is. I do agree with you on your points though there are major differences between the coasts



Jacob J. said:


> Out here in the west, straight falling jobs are the killer of saws these days. Try dumping 350-550 stems a day straight down the hill with a stem diameter average
> of around 14". That will flat wear a saw out in a year easily. I worked a straight falling job on Seneca ground that was 4.25 million board feet in just over five months
> with four guys cutting full time.



Thanks Jacob. to put that in perspective each man there cut 1,062,500 bf in 5 months. Thats 212,500 bf a month. This is exactly what I'm looking for.



hammerlogging said:


> Mountain hardwood timber. about 2.3 mmbf/yr. plus about 150 loads of pulpwood. In about 175 work days /year, realistically. Avg bdft/tree, maybe 200. bdft per acre? anywhere from 3 mbf to 10 plus. About a saw year, any longer and I'm millking it too much, and I go into Jacob J's rotation, and the third gets sold off to a logger or whoever. And I agree, these "wore out" saws are hot #### to about anyone else but a faller, but not satisfactory for a full time faller. this is pretty rough, but close enough for discussion
> 
> I'd say the hardest thing ona saw is the guys running it like it has a sharp chain- I hate hearing a saw out there running hard with a dull chain. I do like the grinder, the most I ever run a chain is 6 tanks. I run usually 10 tanks through my 660 per day. With a lesser chain I bet that'd be 13 tanks and half the trees



So that is 2,300,000 bf a year and we haven't counted the pulp loads. That makes it 383,000 bf per month. How many mbf are in a load of pulp back there? And all of this is cut by a chainsaw not a processor correct?



Slamm you said 1-2 million bf per year. Ok well take your high number 2 million. That means you are cutting 166,666 bf per month.




Oldtimer said:


> I worked alone for 16+ years of the 20 or so I have been doing this. I had 2 saws most always, but favored one most of the time. I would have to dig out all my trucking slips and then try to put a number on all the cords of wood, then the tree work, and then the incidental stuff.....and remember too that limbing every single tree out must also be counted as feet cut...and every pushed over sapling that gets cut down, and brush that gets lopped...and every log bucked on the landing must be counted as feet cut...so yeah, many many millions of feet. Hell, I bet 50 million is a low number.
> Also, I repair if possible.
> 
> This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..



You are still speaking in generalities and are not giving me anything that is scientifically accurate. Given that this is a scientific experiment which uses imperical data and you have only given me anecdotal data your response is nullified. In plain speak its just a bunch of crap that isn't worth anything.

Guys that wear a saw out each year cut 212,500 bf a month and 383,000 bf per month. Guy that doesn't 166,666 bf per month. So in a years time those that buy a new saw see twice as much action than those that don't. I think it's pretty easy to understand that saws that get more use are going to wear out faster.


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> This idea of buying new as a way to "save money" via a tax write-off is misleading. So you don't pay a tax- you still spent that money you worked damned hard for. I prefer to save it until I can buy something I don't already have that can make me money....and I need to show a sizable disposable income to get bank loans when the time is right..



You might want to re-think that. Why not talk to a good tax accountant and see if they agree with you. Whatever you pay them, and it isn't much, you'll probably realize in savings on your tax liability.

It's not enough to be just a hard worker and a good logger anymore. Money management is key and things are so damn complicated that it's almost impossible to stay up with it.

So, get some advice and use it to help your business or just ignore everybody and muddle along like you have been. Your choice entirely.


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## Oldtimer (Apr 20, 2012)

Gologit said:


> You might want to re-think that. Why not talk to a good tax accountant and see if they agree with you. Whatever you pay them, and it isn't much, you'll probably realize in savings on your tax liability.
> 
> It's not enough to be just a hard worker and a good logger anymore. Money management is key and things are so damn complicated that it's almost impossible to stay up with it.
> 
> So, get some advice and use it to help your business or just ignore everybody and muddle along like you have been. Your choice entirely.



I have a very good accountant, who handles several other logging contractors. She has saved me BIG time the last few years. I still don't see the sense in spending money for the sake of "saving" on income tax. I feel that in the long run, with a goal in mind, saving money is the smart thing to do. $790 on my new 576XP-AT is one thing, but I have seen guys buy $30K items for the sake of a "write-off". No sense in buying a $30K write-off if it doesn't actually make you money. I'd rather render unto Caesar and keep as much as I can in reserve. My CPA agrees.


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## Oldtimer (Apr 20, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Thats why I wanted mbf, or cord, or acres its much easier to quantify than actual hours and doing anything more would really just clutter up what the goal is. I do agree with you on your points though there are major differences between the coasts
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've cut plenty. I am not going to go spend 4 hours researching what I have cut the last 20 years.
Exclude me from this highly technical scentific endeavor.
Put plainly, wearing out a saw every 4 months is CRAP. Buying new when a re-ring is all you need is CRAP. 
But who really cares? The end result of any deep thought comparison here in this forum ends with the west coast faller being able to walk on water and cure blindness with a touch.

News flash: Dumping trees all day is not logging.


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## Slamm (Apr 20, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> Guys that wear a saw out each year cut 212,500 bf a month and 383,000 bf per month. Guy that doesn't 166,666 bf per month. So in a years time those that buy a new saw see twice as much action than those that don't. I think it's pretty easy to understand that saws that get more use are going to wear out faster.



Uh, right, except you forgot that all of my saws still worked just fine after years of use, and the other person is replacing them each year .......... my saws either cut the same in hardwood, no less, or more due to being worked for more years, so I don't really see your point. It boils down to some people are just harder on saws than others. The saws that I use are always in better shape than the saws that the workers use, always and it will always be like that.

As to trying to make money by replacing items or just buying items for the sake of a tax deduction ......... I'm with Oldtimer, I buy things I need, not buy saws to replace saws that already work just fine. I buy skidders, trucks, excavator's ....... and I buy saws.


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## forestryworks (Apr 20, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> News flash: Dumping trees all day is not logging.



You're right, it's called timber falling.

And I've never seen a tree that arrived at a mill standing upright and attached to a stump!


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## Gologit (Apr 20, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I've cut plenty. I am not going to go spend 4 hours researching what I have cut the last 20 years.
> Exclude me from this highly technical scentific endeavor.
> Put plainly, wearing out a saw every 4 months is CRAP. Buying new when a re-ring is all you need is CRAP.
> But who really cares? The end result of any deep thought comparison here in this forum ends with the west coast faller being able to walk on water and cure blindness with a touch.
> ...



Okay Sparky...you just keep on it. People have tried to help you here, but apparently you don't need it. Well, actually you _do_ need it but you're too pig headed to see it. Go play with your little land clearing jobs and your junk equipment and try to convince yourself that you're a real logger. We know better. Real loggers tend to listen to advice and not get all whiny like a little school girl.

LOL...I'll bet you're glad you don't work for me. You should be, anyway. I sure am.


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Okay Sparky...you just keep on it. People have tried to help you here, but apparently you don't need it. Well, actually you _do_ need it but you're too pig headed to see it. Go play with your little land clearing jobs and your junk equipment and try to convince yourself that you're a real logger. We know better. Real loggers tend to listen to advice and not get all whiny like a little school girl.
> 
> LOL...I'll bet you're glad you don't work for me. You should be, anyway. I sure am.



Hahaha. Truer words were never spoken.

Andy


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

Slamm said:


> As to trying to make money by replacing items or just buying items for the sake of a tax deduction ......... I'm with Oldtimer, I buy things I need, not buy saws to replace saws that already work just fine.  I buy skidders, trucks, excavator's ....... and I buy saws.



And next up is a Who's got the biggest pecker contest.
Whip em out boy's. 

Andy


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## Rounder (Apr 21, 2012)

This went to poop in a hurry. Maybe better on the chainsaw forum.

New ones every 4- 6 months or so. Somebody else gets a nice used saw and I get a new one. I don't get paid to #### with saws in the strip....much less on my weekends for that matter- #### that.


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

Rounder said:


> This went to poop in a hurry. Maybe better on the chainsaw forum.
> 
> New ones every 4- 6 months or so. Somebody else gets a nice used saw and I get a new one. I don't get paid to #### with saws in the strip....much less on my weekends for that matter- #### that.



Sorry about that.
I just couldn't help myself.  

Andy


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## Oldtimer (Apr 21, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Okay Sparky...you just keep on it. People have tried to help you here, but apparently you don't need it. Well, actually you _do_ need it but you're too pig headed to see it. Go play with your little land clearing jobs and your junk equipment and try to convince yourself that you're a real logger. We know better. Real loggers tend to listen to advice and not get all whiny like a little school girl.
> 
> LOL...I'll bet you're glad you don't work for me. You should be, anyway. I sure am.



Save it. You think you're god's own gift to the woods. I think you've never cut a load of wood by yourself in your whole life. My junk might be junk, but I own it and I rely on no man for my paycheck. It's called self-reliance. You never offer advice, you pontificate. Stick to curing leprosy and casting out demons.


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## Oldtimer (Apr 21, 2012)

redprospector said:


> And next up is a Who's got the biggest pecker contest.
> Whip em out boy's.
> 
> Andy



Oops! That's what he gets for siding with me: Andy goes full retard on him.


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Oops! That's what he gets for siding with me: Andy goes full retard on him.



Nope that's just what he gets period.
Oh, and by the way. I think you're winning the contest.....If you could just cover your ears.

Andy


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## Gologit (Apr 21, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Save it. You think you're god's own gift to the woods. I think you've never cut a load of wood by yourself in your whole life. My junk might be junk, but I own it and I rely on no man for my paycheck. It's called self-reliance. You never offer advice, you pontificate. Stick to curing leprosy and casting out demons.



:monkey: Easy there, Sparky. I've offered you a lot of advice, you just didn't like it and got all defensive because you thought we were picking on you. You need to learn the difference.

If you can see your way clear, head out this way and I'll take you to work with me. I'm serious. Spend a week with us, doing what we do every day, at the pace we move at, in the terrain we deal with. See if you can keep up. You'll know, and we'll know, after the first day if you're a logger or not.

You're responsible for your own room and board but we'll get you up to the woods every morning nice and early.


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## Slamm (Apr 21, 2012)

redprospector said:


> And next up is a Who's got the biggest pecker contest.
> Whip em out boy's.
> 
> Andy


 
LOL, you twat, my point is I'm not about going out and selling saws as a means for tax write offs for financial gain. I have enough other things to buy and bother with. And I don't work on saws either, whether they are 1 week old or 7 years old, I've had very little ever break on them chain tensioners and some plastic. I started using auto gas this year and for the first time in a decade I'm have some starting problems ....... as in it takes a couple of more pulls to get two of them started. Going back to 100 LL AV gas.

I too question the board footage deal, I know some westies have to cut, limb and top their trees, but what I see on TV its a lot of softer wood and they just have to cut off at a waist high stump and let her fall over, and the wood looks like it cuts like balsa wood, which is fine, cut what you have to cut, but it isn't hardwood and you don't have to cut another 4-10 12" branches off of the stem either. I don't make much money with a chainsaw, I make my money with a skidder. Right now we're cutting trees for another guy at $10 per tree, we had a short day yesterday, I cut, limbed and topped 44 trees, Menno cut 44 trees then we went home to work on an oil leak on the skid steer, while the water goes down up North.

If all I had to do with cut them over, Oh boy, that number would triple easily. I remember in Wisconsin I cut about 10,000 board feet in one day when I was starting out, it was hot and a very steep sidehill, I was somewhat impressed, until later at the bar a guy said he had cut 40,000 board feet in the same day. I spent most of the night bothered that I would never be a good timber cutter and should just quit, because I didn't see any possible way I could have cut my 10,000 in a quarter of the time, and I was literally running from tree to tree, all day. So I tell another good cutter that I want to watch him cut for a day, so I can learn how to cut 40,000 in one day ........................ he said, who can cut that much in one day on a sidehill around here? I said this other guy did. He laughed for about 3 minutes, because he knew it bothered me a bunch, he said that guy just tips trees, there are two others that come behind him and top the trees, OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH, now it made sense, LOL.

Its not really a big deal to me, I just present how I do things and what I do, I make money doing it too or I wouldn't be doing it. How or why the westies always get in a jam that its their way or nothing is beyond me, buts that just how it is, they make no money for me, and I've been doing what I do long enough and for around here, most think I'm doing it correctly. I have zero machine payments and very little pressure. I do take on more work than I should at times, but I do that for the challenge, otherwise I work when I want and for who I want, short of winning the lottery, few can top that, so most everyone here can take their petty chainsaw arguments and shove it, LOL.

Sam


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## Sport Faller (Apr 21, 2012)

I'm like a tallboy of Colt .45 down there, just sayin


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

Slamm said:


> LOL, you twat, my point is I'm not about going out and selling saws as a means for tax write offs for financial gain. I have enough other things to buy and bother with. And I don't work on saws either, whether they are 1 week old or 7 years old, I've had very little ever break on them chain tensioners and some plastic. I started using auto gas this year and for the first time in a decade I'm have some starting problems ....... as in it takes a couple of more pulls to get two of them started. Going back to 100 LL AV gas.
> 
> I too question the board footage deal, I know some westies have to cut, limb and top their trees, but what I see on TV its a lot of softer wood and they just have to cut off at a waist high stump and let her fall over, and the wood looks like it cuts like balsa wood, which is fine, cut what you have to cut, but it isn't hardwood and you don't have to cut another 4-10 12" branches off of the stem either. I don't make much money with a chainsaw, I make my money with a skidder. Right now we're cutting trees for another guy at $10 per tree, we had a short day yesterday, I cut, limbed and topped 44 trees, Menno cut 44 trees then we went home to work on an oil leak on the skid steer, while the water goes down up North.
> 
> ...



Haha. Watchit Sam, you're gonna hurt my feelings.
Naw, just kidding, I ain't got none.
I see a big part of the problem now. You seem to be taking what you see on TV as how it is. :msp_confused: Most of us (in my area anyway) have to "cut, limb, and top" our trees (we call it "working up a tree"). Yes we cut mostly soft wood, some that isn't so soft. The reason it appears to "cut like balsa wood" is because most of us use square chisel chain, rather than the semi chisel chain that you have said you use. 
The last time I cut 10,000 bd ft in a day we were in some real sorry stuff. Even in good timber, 44 trees in a 6 hr day won't cut it here, you'll starve to death.

Personally I don't care if you never buy another saw. When you say that the "Westies" get in a jam over you not doing things our way....Well I think you've got a bad case of the pot calling the kettle black. Any time someone doesn't do things just the way you do, a discussion starts, and then you get your panties in a wad. I really don't care. Keep doing what you're doing, and you'll likely stay right where you're at. I've picked up quite a few ideas on this site (and not all of them came from the West) that have made me some money. A man's got to be willing to learn new things in order to broaden his horizons. 
I'm glad that you don't owe anything on your equipment, that way you have a chance to make money for you instead of your banker. I can't understand why you'd be so willing to give it away to such a wastefull government.:msp_confused:
You keep doing what you're doing. If you're making money, great. If not, no skin off of my nose. We can just agree to disagree. But don't think that means I won't have fun giving you a hard time about your hard head. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Apr 21, 2012)

And that goes double for you oldtimer. 

Andy


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## 056 kid (Apr 21, 2012)

& the douchery continues. .


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## Gologit (Apr 21, 2012)

redprospector said:


> And that goes double for you oldtimer.
> 
> Andy



They're probably both down at their tax guy asking what the hell a depreciation schedule is and how do they set one up. :msp_rolleyes:

There's so darn little profit in this business that I can't understand why they don't take advantage of every legal opportunity to save themselves a buck or two.

A lot of guys think that having a few bucks left over at the end of the month means you're making money. All they're really doing is financing a low paying hobby and calling themselves loggers.


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## Gologit (Apr 21, 2012)

056 kid said:


> & the douchery continues. .



#### ###....yup.


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## hammerlogging (Apr 21, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> News flash: Dumping trees all day is not logging.




No ####. Loggers are so.... dirty. Loggers aren't fallers, neither are truck drivers. And fallers aren't skidder drivers. SOme people can do more than one thing, some people know a little about this or that, and thats good for every once in a while, but a specialist, and the inherent advantages in productivity and quality in working among specialists as a team, it works really well that way. After all, a skidder thats sitting while its operator is falling, or bucking, or loading, is sitting. Utilization.


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## Slamm (Apr 22, 2012)

LOL, wow, what a bunch of fuxxing windbags, LOL.

Now I can't cut, barely can log and don't know how to run my business and its a hobby that barely makes any money. I'm learning new things everyday from this site, no doubt mostly from the Westies, their eyes are everywhere.

Truly amazing,

Sam


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## hammerlogging (Apr 23, 2012)

o


Slamm said:


> LOL, wow, what a bunch of fuxxing windbags, LOL.
> 
> Now I can't cut, barely can log and don't know how to run my business and its a hobby that barely makes any money. I'm learning new things everyday from this site, no doubt mostly from the Westies, their eyes are everywhere.
> 
> ...



Nah, you know your #### and how you do things works for you. Some discussions get out of whack because it doesn't work like a back and forth conversation so a response here or there might not be meant to address your comments as directly as they seem to.


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## Jacob J. (Apr 23, 2012)

Eastern cutting is its own game and western cutting is its own game and the two have different challenges. 

I got to work some eastern timber a few years ago. I didn't care for the bugs or hot & muggy conditions. 
The ground wasn't super steep but plenty rocky and you had to pay attention because the hardwoods 
could get to sliding around pretty good. I did my three weeks and called it good. 

There was also some plant there, similar to stinging nettles that would irritate the crap out of you.


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 23, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I've cut plenty. I am not going to go spend 4 hours researching what I have cut the last 20 years.
> Exclude me from this highly technical scentific endeavor.
> Put plainly, wearing out a saw every 4 months is CRAP. Buying new when a re-ring is all you need is CRAP.
> But who really cares? The end result of any deep thought comparison here in this forum ends with the west coast faller being able to walk on water and cure blindness with a touch.
> ...



 I didn't ask you to go back and research how much timber you cut in the last 20 years just a number for one year. As someone mentioned earlier it is called timber falling. I never said east coasties were bad loggers. There are different ways of doing things in different parts of the country. Some things you guys do are great and some things the west coast guys do are great. The whole debate has to do with you saying guys that buy a new saw every year are abusing them. Yes they are wearing them out. The minute you start that saw up it is wearing itself out and becoming junk. Any time they are used they are abused but it's not overt abuse its called every day wear and tear.




Slamm said:


> LOL, you twat, my point is I'm not about going out and selling saws as a means for tax write offs for financial gain. I have enough other things to buy and bother with. And I don't work on saws either, whether they are 1 week old or 7 years old, I've had very little ever break on them chain tensioners and some plastic. I started using auto gas this year and for the first time in a decade I'm have some starting problems ....... as in it takes a couple of more pulls to get two of them started. Going back to 100 LL AV gas.
> 
> I too question the board footage deal, I know some westies have to cut, limb and top their trees, but what I see on TV its a lot of softer wood and they just have to cut off at a waist high stump and let her fall over, and the wood looks like it cuts like balsa wood, which is fine, cut what you have to cut, but it isn't hardwood and you don't have to cut another 4-10 12" branches off of the stem either. I don't make much money with a chainsaw, I make my money with a skidder. Right now we're cutting trees for another guy at $10 per tree, we had a short day yesterday, I cut, limbed and topped 44 trees, Menno cut 44 trees then we went home to work on an oil leak on the skid steer, while the water goes down up North.
> 
> ...



On whole tree yarding and ground based shows in smaller second growth the cutters just fall. The trees are small enough that they can be pulled up to the landing where a processor will do the limbing and bucking. In big wood, trees can be heavy enough that they have to be limbed and bucked before they are yarded; thats what you are seeing there. Don't base much off of shows like Ax Men it is mostly created drama. And there are "soft woods" here that are pretty tough. Sitka spruce for instance. Very tough wood and if you get a big wolfy spruce that the processor cant handle the chaser gets it and were talking alot more than just 4-10 limbs to cut. Try about 30ft of 3"-4" limbs and that crap dulls a chain very fast. As someone mentioned earlier most cutters out west are using full skip chisel chain that cuts very fast in our softwoods. As it's been explained to me semi skip robs too much power in soft wood to get any sort of extra speed by having more teeth than full skip. But doesn't dull as fast as full skip does. Thats why it is so popular in hardwood. Also the reason those stumps are cut off at seemingly waist high is because of flare or butt swell. mills don't wan't that so it is left on the stump. Don't mistake this as a "oh our wood is just as hard as yours and were better than you statement." This is simply an explanation of what you're seeing with an example thrown in to illustrate it's not the cake walk tv shows make it appear.


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## epicklein22 (May 3, 2012)

Interesting story, my Jred dealer just told me about a customer of his with a 2188. The guy claimed a million board feet without one problem, just consumables. Even had the original spark plug. Sold the saw for $450 and bought another new one. That sounds pretty damn good to me.


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

Wow , you guys really get goin !!  
So , what was the original ? How long does a daw last ? 
When I was younger I demanded a saw give me 90 days trouble free . After that I was board with all but the best of them . The best bein Ace Morgan hot rodded Huskies . Man were they sweet . 

Thats burning 2 1/2 gal. Saw gas in 6-7 hours sometimes more , sometimes less . But it varied with the saw some . 064 Stihls and 288 Huskies gave the best balance of power speed and fuel efficency . With timber in the up to 4' on the stump . Bigger timber , a 394 H or 056 Mag II you would be burning close to 3 gal. 
Lets see about limbing , take a Sitka Spruce that grew in a tight stand . 36" across the stump , 140 feet tall . What we call 3 log timber . Aladkan timber tapers pretty fast and bushlers got paid on Scribner scale . Because most of it wad tower ground we didn't have to get too carried away with the limbing . So theres 5-9 limbs per verticle year of growth . Probably an average of 18" verticle growth per year .less in the top half of the yree . Limbs usually start at about 32' up sometimes less sometimes more.
So you had to limb 3 of the 6 sides . So ya had 90' of tree with 3 limbs every foot ana half . They are as hard as any Rock Maple I ever cut in Maine . Limb diameter was about 2 1/2" . Smaller at the top , Bigger toward the butt . So thats 180 limbs , 2 1/2" avg dia. Per tree . And the Quality Control piss fir willeys HATED pig ears . Boy would they get consternated over pig ears .


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

2100 Huskies really enjoyed drinkin gas too . So the first 2 logs would be a 40' 22" then a 40'16" then usually a 32'-40' 8" top log . Now this is just an average with 1 of the 5 species we generaly cut in Southeast Alaska . And as anyone who has cut much coastal virgin timber will tell you , average is rare . Incidently those 3' 3 log spruce were an average of 300 years old . 

Red Cedar , gosh , run and hide . You never seen limbs like s.e. red cedar . A red cedar 5' on the stump 120' tall would use up the better part of a tank of fuel in a 56,2100,394 and from what I saw an 066/660 . To fall , limb and buck one .

So bein I'm Alaskan , and Alaska is kind of the bastard child of West coast timber , BUT Interior Alaska is like Minnisota or Wisconsin , or Ontario . See , we have BOTHsides of the Continental Devide in Alaska .

So on the coast say an average of 25,000 board feet merch and 25,000 feet of cull scale per day for an average bushler x90 days equals 4 million500 thousand board feet 

And , not many fallers in Alaska run full skip chain , It works ok but semi skip is the best ballance ime . Doesn't rob your power on the stump and does pretty good in the limbs .


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

I know almost no fallers who regularly got more than a season on a powerhead .most got 5 or 6 months .
For a long time I thot that the next saw was going to be the perfect one . 

Now I like them to last .


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

paccity said:


> probably should stay out of this but ,,. some of these men put down more boardfeet of timber in one season to another s 10 seasons. not to start a pissin match over one coast over the other ,but i,ve seen the decks from some of these and i'm not seeing as much lumber laying . some peop:le need to come out and spend a little time on some big strips out here and see the differentiates . a smart faller dont abuse his saws he wears them out. just sayin. hope the ramble made sence. theses pills are good.:msp_unsure:


 


So this is where th battle started . Way t go Pac ..


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## redprospector (May 4, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> So this is where th battle started . Way t go Pac ..



Now you're diggin' up bones Tramp. 

Andy


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## paccity (May 4, 2012)

not me tramp.:msp_rolleyes: this is what b\got my hackles up. "I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a lot of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it. " i'll leave it at that.:msp_wink:


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

Reteading my posts I can ser the arthritis in my hand . My thumb is like a disobedient old man . .


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## tramp bushler (May 4, 2012)

paccity said:


> not me tramp.:msp_rolleyes: this is what b\got my hackles up. "I don't understand why a man would need a new saw every 8 months. It has to be pure negligence, because I have cut a lot of timber and firewood in 20 years. And I do about zero maintenance on them myself- just drop them off when something lets go....I leave them out in the rain, sun, snow...no love beyond being careful and not abusing it when using it. " i'll leave it at that.:msp_wink:



:msp_razz::msp_unsure::redface:


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## atvguns (May 4, 2012)

logging22 said:


> I was just wondering about how many new saws loggers in different parts of the country use in a year? I bought seven new saws last year. Traded three in, kept the others as backup saws. What say ye??:msp_smile:


What have you started


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## redprospector (May 5, 2012)

atvguns said:


> What have you started



Logging22 didn't start anything. Heck, he could have asked how often we eat cheese and we would have had a similar discussion. :msp_laugh:

Andy


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## tramp bushler (May 5, 2012)

Some guys just have things last . Some guys just don't . I know a guy who busheled with 075s on POW . One of his saws he made 26,000$ with before he had to do anything to it or even bring it in from his strip .

Oh , and no timber fallers should look down of someone cutting firewood professionally . 
Bushlin a strip in a camp may be harder work sometimes . But . Runnin a small loggin company in the cold winter is alot harder occupation . And buckin big firewood is hard on a saw . .

Just sayin.


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## logging22 (May 5, 2012)

atvguns said:


> What have you started



Well hells bells boys. I didnt want to start a fight. Just wondering what kind of use others got out of there saws is all. I get a new saw whenever the budget allows, even if i really dont need it. Thats just me. I still have powerheads that i bought years ago when i started this crazy thing we call logging. Just bought 2 new ones this month. Looking at 2 more. Need? Not really. Want? Hell yes!! I have two cutters with me now and ya never know when a saw will go down. Carry at least 6 with us to the woods. Too far to go back to the shop and get another one. Its just my way of making things easy, for me. Had a pretty good week. Got near 120 thousand bf to the mill and only cost me 2 bars, 4 chains, and a flippy cap. All power heads running and accounted for. If only i could get the power of a 3120 or 088 in the frame of a 346 or 044. Man, dreams are great eh??:msp_tongue:


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## RandyMac (May 5, 2012)

Hey 22, you want in on our 100cc McCulloch 10 series saws?


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## logging22 (May 5, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hey 22, you want in on our 100cc McCulloch 10 series saws?



Are we building or buying? Hell yes i want in. Details please.


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## RandyMac (May 5, 2012)

logging22 said:


> Are we building or buying? Hell yes i want in. Details please.



building, contact homelite jim.
We are shooting for nearly 100cc in less than an 18 pound package.


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## NORMZILLA44 (May 13, 2012)

Rounder said:


> This went to poop in a hurry. Maybe better on the chainsaw forum.
> 
> New ones every 4- 6 months or so. Somebody else gets a nice used saw and I get a new one. I don't get paid to #### with saws in the strip....much less on my weekends for that matter- #### that.


 Howdy pard. Good point whether needed or not, and resale of the used one. That is what most production fallers, including my friends in my area do, Ive seen them wear out a saw in 6 months, or run it a full year or more. But on average I would say here 6 months or a year. But all pro fallers I know by a replacement yearly no matter what. They may sell the previous one, use that for backup, or a firewood saw. Or cut more timber but either way they get a new one every year. Good read so far, but not in to the east or west thing, because totally different animal, and Redwood dust has claimed saws, and men. For the new saw replacement I was using your post as refrence, you know who the rest will apply to pard, as I know you are a timber faller.


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## OlympicYJ (May 14, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> And , not many fallers in Alaska run full skip chain , It works ok but semi skip is the best ballance ime . Doesn't rob your power on the stump and does pretty good in the limbs .



Did you find better stay sharp ability when working in that spruce with semi skip? It's been my experience that it'll dull a full skip after a while, compared to working in fir that is.


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## tramp bushler (May 15, 2012)

Ya it will dull a little quicker as is precieved . But its not that the the teeth dull faster but the saw does seem duller . With full skip that is . 
With semi skip I get a full day on a chain and unless I got into the dirt bucking or threw my chain too many times . 
Full comp is great for limbing , o k for bucking 3' dia. And smaller logs . But to have it set up for limbs it will suck for falling . Too agressive and it plugs up to easy and its alot harder on clutches . . Semi skip is a great comprimise . Still good on the stump and good in the limbs . . You can run an 8 tooth sprocket instead of a 7 . Without burning up your clutch . Keeps the chain speed up there by keeping the bar groove cleaned out better and keeping the chain + bar oiled better . I'de rather run full skip than full comp. Alot of the guys I've cut with that ran full comp like to think they were the greatest man to ever lace on a pair of cork shoes . 
If your just limbing and bucking . Maybe full comp .


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## OlympicYJ (May 15, 2012)

Yea I was thinkin just for workin on the landing semi skip would be good cuz ud maybe cut just a tad faster. I thought it would bog a saw down too much if your runnin an 8 pin though...


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## Joe46 (May 15, 2012)

I knew some guys that ran full comp in Alder. I pretty much stuck with full skip.


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## Rounder (May 15, 2012)

Joe46 said:


> I knew some guys that ran full comp in Alder. I pretty much stuck with full skip.



Always kind of an interesting debate....It seems like it just depends on locale/species. The stuff we cut in Montana is kind of middle of the road, not soft, but not truly hard either. Full-comp sqaure seems to be the best option around here. Always interesting to see what works for others. -Sam


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## wowzers (May 15, 2012)

Rounder said:


> Always kind of an interesting debate....It seems like it just depends on locale/species. The stuff we cut in Montana is kind of middle of the road, not soft, but not truly hard either. Full-comp sqaure seems to be the best option around here. Always interesting to see what works for others. -Sam



That seems to be the prefered choice here too.


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## tramp bushler (May 15, 2012)

There were some top hands that ran full comp . 
On the Coast as most of it is mixed species and tends to be pretty fat on the stump and its 90% old growth. You need Lots of power to pull 34" of cut in a tree . Its not if you will be in 4-6' on the stump timber .
But how much will be that size and bigger . 
If a guy is a super man and can keep up with a 120 cc saw all day , day in day out . They can handle full comp. . But on average from 75-95 cc , running a 32-37" bar . Semi fits the bill . And if you have a 660 or 395 w
That you have a 50" bar for the occasional big tree . Ime your much better off with a 404 tip and a 7 tooth sprocket with full skip . It sure does work a guy alot less . Now that Oregon stopped making the Dura Pro chain .. That stuff was great . For the coast anyway .


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