# Chisel grinding and fileing. NOT SQUARE !!



## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2018)

Just a big pet peeve of mine. 

There ain't nothing square about chisel fileing or grinding. 

Calling chisel grinding or fileing square as opposed to round fileing is quite a dumbing down of a group of people not known for bright intellect.


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## Skeans (Jan 16, 2018)

From a Madsen's catalog






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## tramp bushler (Jan 16, 2018)

I don't know why Madsen's called it square. There is nothing square about it.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 16, 2018)

are ya peaved cause the angles on a full chisel chain are not in fact 90' to one another?

I mean, its a bone to pick I guess, but I can think of better reasons to loose sleep and or stomach lining


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## Skeans (Jan 17, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> I don't know why Madsen's called it square. There is nothing square about it.


Might be because Oregon does other then that no idea why it's called that. My question has always been how do you get a chisel from a round shape?
https://www.oregonproducts.com/square-filing

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## tramp bushler (Jan 17, 2018)

For decades , while both hand fileing and grinding chisel chain. As did every other bushel in camp. But, I never heard chisel grinding or fileing called square until fairly recently. Like the past 10 years or so. 
A , Square is a real thing . its absolutely, perfectly , precisely 90° . 
About the only thing that might be 90° on a chisel bit cutter is the out side angle of the side to top. 
And I've NEVER dressed a stone or used a chisel file that was square . Or put anything square into the tooth.


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## Skeans (Jan 17, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> For decades , while both hand fileing and grinding chisel chain. As did every other bushel in camp. But, I never heard chisel grinding or fileing called square until fairly recently. Like the past 10 years or so.
> A , Square is a real thing . its absolutely, perfectly , precisely 90° .
> About the only thing that might be 90° on a chisel bit cutter is the out side angle of the side to top.
> And I've NEVER dressed a stone or used a chisel file that was square . Or put anything square into the tooth.


Wasn't the old round called chipper? Before that you chisel and chipper correct?

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## Trx250r180 (Jan 17, 2018)

Most of the fallers i know call it chisel bit chain ,it is easier to say square or round rather than explain what a chisel bit chain is every time. Stuff is more triangle than square now that you point it out,not my best work but a random .404 work chain I had.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 17, 2018)

I sent them an email.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 17, 2018)

Skeans said:


> Wasn't the old round called chipper? Before that you chisel and chipper correct?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



The original was chipper tooth configuration. Then they started making the chisel tooth.
Most of the old timers that broke me in and that I cut for . Started with 3/4 or 5/8 pitch chisel filed chisel bit.
I learned on Oregon 52 AJ . full skip 404 . But I was round filing chisel bit chain when I was a teen aged back east.


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## madhatte (Jan 17, 2018)

I always figured the distinction was between round-filed chisel and square-filed chisel. Same cutter, different file. Different grinder, too. Now that I think about it, while it might be a bit misleading to call it "square", it's still an important distinction and saves a bit of miscommunication.


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## bitzer (Jan 17, 2018)

I thought it was hip to be square


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## CR888 (Jan 17, 2018)

Round ground chisel & square ground chisel are essentially the same cutter just ground different, they are BOTH chisel teeth/cutters. Chamfer, semi chisel & chipper are much different cutter designs. Madhatte above gets it.


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## buzz sawyer (Jan 17, 2018)

I always took "square" to mean filing to the flat edges of the top and side plates which are square to each other.


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## fool skip (Jan 17, 2018)

For years I used a flat Oberg file for filing chisel bit chain. Nothing square about it. If you are filing right, you will just about have the tie strap filed in two when your chain starts throwing teeth. If anybody knows where there are some Obergs, I'd appreciate that info. I think chisel filing is a bit of a lost art.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2018)

Pferd had some files that where ok... (German for horse... also they where hard to locate 3 years ago soo...)

Otherwise i think your stuck with Oregon


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## tramp bushler (Jan 18, 2018)

fool skip said:


> For years I used a flat Oberg file for filing chisel bit chain. Nothing square about it. If you are filing right, you will just about have the tie strap filed in two when your chain starts throwing teeth. If anybody knows where there are some Obergs, I'd appreciate that info. I think chisel filing is a bit of a lost art.




My favorite file is a double end Oberg chisel file. They held up 3 to 1 over the Valhalla brand files. I've never used a Save Edge brand file to the best of my knowledge. 

Ya, this square thing drives me nuts. 
Heck o billy. Chisel bit chain was termed after a wood chisel. 
I got several wood chisel and ain't a one of em any kind of square. 
I wonder if Oberg went out of business ? 
That would major Suck ! 

Hey Bob, how you doing ???

Great to see everyone from the old Long Bar Association coming thru. 
Where's Randy Mac ? 
Is Jacob still around ? 
Any signs of Burv?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 18, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Pferd had some files that where ok... (German for horse... also they where hard to locate 3 years ago soo...)
> 
> Otherwise i think your stuck with Oregon




Does Oregon make chisel files ??
I need to get some goofy files.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 18, 2018)

I think so?

Bought a grinder a few years back and haven't filed a chain since

Well except my climbing saw, cause its to small to grind.


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## madhatte (Jan 18, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Does Oregon make chisel files ??
> I need to get some goofy files.



They make 'em, sort of. They buy them in bulk from the same Brazilian vendors as everybody else. A few Swiss outfits still make their own -- Vallorbe? -- but mostly files are a commodity item these days.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 18, 2018)

madhatte said:


> They make 'em, sort of. They buy them in bulk from the same Brazilian vendors as everybody else. A few Swiss outfits still make their own -- Vallorbe? -- but mostly files are a commodity item these days.




My cuttin partner in Sitka got a box of Stihl brand double bevel chisel files that had Brazil stamped on them. I went thru 6 files filing 1, chain on his 064. Single worst files I've ever used in my life. The chain wasn't even rocked bad. Oregon chain too. 
I would try 1 Brazilian file to see if they were still tempered like rubber. 
Would never buy a box of them until I knew they would work.


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## mdavlee (Jan 18, 2018)

Bahco bought Oberg. You can buy new Bahco files. Vallorbe has the best quality of any of them to me.


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## madhatte (Jan 18, 2018)

I got lucky and got a batch of Nicholson branded files made in Brazil awhile back that were the best I've ever had. Lasted forever. Would love to get another mess of those.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 18, 2018)

To look at some Oberg files a guy would wonder how well they would work as they tended to have kinda wavy straight lines. But, the steel was good and Hard And tough so the teeth weren't always breaking off. Which was the problem with the Valhalla brand. The teeth of their files tended to be brittle. 
I'll try some Bahco files. If I can find them.


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## madhatte (Jan 18, 2018)

Seems like it's a roll of the dice these days, no matter what you buy. I've had weak Vallorbes and Vialas and Stihls, and strong stuff from Brazil. Pretty sure it's because files are a commodity market now and nobody wants to take the time to do them right.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 18, 2018)

"Copper River Valley"... where at? I've brought firewood out that way a few times. Copper Center, Glenallen, Tonsina, etc.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 18, 2018)

On the subject of sharpening...

Radiac bought out the old Pacific Grinding Wheel building, Picked up one of them white exter fine? wheels for the simington, just as good as the pacific wheels where, No pinks as yet though

They had a grey one that was hard as nails but clogged up extra fast, the white one seems softer, but doesn't clog and can do several chains before loosing the corner. The grinder came with a couple of Simmington branded blue wheels, didn't like em, clogged up and soft... 

I remember the Pink Pacific wheels being pretty good for surface grinding, just haven't gotten a chance to use one for grinding chain, for now though I'm digging the white wheel.


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> On the subject of sharpening...
> 
> Radiac bought out the old Pacific Grinding Wheel building, Picked up one of them white exter fine? wheels for the simington, just as good as the pacific wheels where, No pinks as yet though
> 
> ...


Saw a few salmon orange this morning at Woods down here always loved the wheel.






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## madhatte (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks for the reminder -- I've got a Woods order in, gotta check Monday and see when it'll be ready for pickup. Turns out they're the only real saw shop I can use at work right now because of some weird gov't spending rules. I have them ship to their Longview store so that I don't have to drive through Seattle twice. It's about the same distance and almost no traffic, so I'll take it. I ordered a couple of the brown Silvey wheels for the 510, but I use the blue ceramic wheels on my RSII. THey're spendy but they're good.


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## Skeans (Jan 20, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Thanks for the reminder -- I've got a Woods order in, gotta check Monday and see when it'll be ready for pickup. Turns out they're the only real saw shop I can use at work right now because of some weird gov't spending rules. I have them ship to their Longview store so that I don't have to drive through Seattle twice. It's about the same distance and almost no traffic, so I'll take it. I ordered a couple of the brown Silvey wheels for the 510, but I use the blue ceramic wheels on my RSII. THey're spendy but they're good.


You're welcome to stop by I'm 5 miles or so from the Longview shop.

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## madhatte (Jan 20, 2018)

Skeans said:


> You're welcome to stop by I'm 5 miles or so from the Longview shop.



Won't be able to on that trip -- company time, company rig -- but I still intend to make it your way one of these days.


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## Tree Feller (Jan 20, 2018)

So what is the advantage of a square ground chisel over a round ground chisel chain? Does it hold its edge longer? Is it better in soft wood than in hard wood? What about dirty wood?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Seems like it's a roll of the dice these days, no matter what you buy. I've had weak Vallorbes and Vialas and Stihls, and strong stuff from Brazil. Pretty sure it's because files are a commodity market now and nobody wants to take the time to do them right.





ValleyFirewood said:


> "Copper River Valley"... where at? I've brought firewood out that way a few times. Copper Center, Glenallen, Tonsina, etc.



Glennallen. We've been here since 08


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2018)

Tree Feller said:


> So what is the advantage of a square ground chisel over a round ground chisel chain? Does it hold its edge longer? Is it better in soft wood than in hard wood? What about dirty wood?


Square, cuts faster then round, but doesn't like durty wood


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

Tree Feller said:


> So what is the advantage of a square ground chisel over a round ground chisel chain? Does it hold its edge longer? Is it better in soft wood than in hard wood? What about dirty wood?


Chisel ground or filed chisel bit has the ability to be more efficient and therefore faster cutting than round filed chisel bit chain.


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## InfiniteJest (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> To look at some Oberg files a guy would wonder how well they would work as they tended to have kinda wavy straight lines. But, the steel was good and Hard And tough so the teeth weren't always breaking off. Which was the problem with the Valhalla brand. The teeth of their files tended to be brittle.
> I'll try some Bahco files. If I can find them.



I couldn't find anywhere to buy 1 bacho, by the dozen only.....I didn't want to spend that much on a mystery. 

I've been really happy with the Stihl branded 3 corner files lately.


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Just a big pet peeve of mine.
> 
> There ain't nothing square about chisel fileing or grinding.
> 
> Calling chisel grinding or fileing square as opposed to round fileing is quite a dumbing down of a group of people not known for bright intellect.


Out of curiosity, what do you call the the bump that stands in front of the cutter?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

Its a depth gauge.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

InfiniteJest said:


> I couldn't find anywhere to buy 1 bacho, by the dozen only.....I didn't want to spend that much on a mystery.
> 
> I've been really happy with the Stihl branded 3 corner files lately.




Where do you get the Stihl brand hex/3 corner files ??


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Thanks for the reminder -- I've got a Woods order in, gotta check Monday and see when it'll be ready for pickup. Turns out they're the only real saw shop I can use at work right now because of some weird gov't spending rules. I have them ship to their Longview store so that I don't have to drive through Seattle twice. It's about the same distance and almost no traffic, so I'll take it. I ordered a couple of the brown Silvey wheels for the 510, but I use the blue ceramic wheels on my RSII. THey're spendy but they're good.




I've actually used a few brown wheels on my first 450 Simington. 
Pretty forgiving wheel to learn with. Wears fast . doesn't hold an edge for long. But. It got the job done. Hard to see the corner with tho. 
I like the white but prefer the blue ceramic wheel. 
The ceramic isn't forgiving at all. But, once a guy learns how to use one . They really are great. 
I initially shape a new wheel with a single point dresser. Then take it out and put cluster dressers back in. Really let's a guy get a fine edge on the tooth.


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Its a depth gauge.


Thank you, not quite a pet peeve but I cringe just a little when they are referred to as rakers or a variety of other things! I mean come on, what are you running a cross cut misery whip...


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## concretegrazer (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Where do you get the Stihl brand has/3 corner files ??



From stihl/they do exist.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

Ya, sometimes I call them riders. But not too often. When people call them rakers its kinda like fingernails on a chalk board. 

When filing with a Hexagon chisel file. I give the gullet a few swipes before I do the cutter. Even tho the gullet is part of the cutter, it is its own little entity. I file it down on an angle so the point of it get out of the way. Much prefer a hex file to a big fat round file for doing gullets. When I'm grinding I free hand each gullet before I put the chain on the grinder to sharpen it.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> From stihl/they do exist.




What shop ??
No Stihl dealer around here carries them.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2018)

Dolmar Enthusiast said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you call the the bump that stands in front of the cutter?



Rakers, riders, depth gauges... depending on who I'm talking to mostly, as for calling them Rakers its a hold over from the misery whip days, but also from the scratcher chains of yore. 

Really bad when someone refers to the bar as a "blade"


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## concretegrazer (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> What shop ??
> No Stihl dealer around here carries them.



I had to order them. I can get the part # if you want.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Rakers, riders, depth gauges... depending on who I'm talking to mostly, as for calling them Rakers its a hold over from the misery whip days, but also from the scratcher chains of yore.
> 
> Really bad when someone refers to the bar as a "blade"




Ya , that about makes my head explode a little.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 20, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> I had to order them. I can get the part # if you want.



That would be great ! I would appreciate it !


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 20, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Rakers, riders, depth gauges... depending on who I'm talking to mostly, as for calling them Rakers its a hold over from the misery whip days, but also from the scratcher chains of yore.
> 
> Really bad when someone refers to the bar as a "blade"


The blade people, I am always quick to inform them that it's a rotary light saber...


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> What shop ??
> No Stihl dealer around here carries them.


Yeah I had to get my local dealer to order them also, he allows that nobody knows how to use em,so he doesn't keep ! $11 bucks a pop


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## concretegrazer (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> That would be great ! I would appreciate it !



7010 871 0132

There was some discrepancy for that # being 1 file or a box. For my dealer it was just 1 file.


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## concretegrazer (Jan 20, 2018)

Dolmar Enthusiast said:


> Yeah I had to GE my local dealer to order them also, he allows that nobody knows how to use em,so he doesn't keep ! $11 bucks a pop



$8 or 9 here.


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 20, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> $8 or 9 here.


I knew they were screwing me, just wait till Monday...


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## madhatte (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> I initially shape a new wheel with a single point dresser. Then take it out and put cluster dressers back in. Really let's a guy get a fine edge on the tooth.



That is exactly how I do it, works well


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jan 20, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Glennallen. We've been here since 08



That place is like a freezer. Couple years ago I had to go rescue a friend hauling a 38ft trailer to the L48. Was about 40* here in Palmer. (Was springtime, April I think) Was about -30 in Glennallen!


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## InfiniteJest (Jan 21, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Where do you get the Stihl brand hex/3 corner files ??



The local Stihl dealer keeps them on hand. A guy might find them online...never looked.


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> When filing with a Hexagon chisel file. I give the gullet a few swipes before I do the cutter. Even tho the gullet is part of the cutter, it is its own little entity. I file it down on an angle so the point of it get out of the way. Much prefer a hex file to a big fat round file for doing gullets.



I missed this last night. The Stihl hex file has a smaller sideplate edge which leaves a considerably larger gullet & it won't work well for clearing them.


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## fool skip (Jan 21, 2018)

Something that works for me if I am stuck with a 3 corner file. I file my tooth with a round file and then just put a corner and file the top plate with the 3 corner. It will suck some wood.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

fool skip said:


> Something that works for me if I am stuck with a 3 corner file. I file my tooth with a round file and then just put a corner and file the top plate with the 3 corner. It will suck some wood.


I would love if you can post some pics of this . I have a couple 3 corner stihl files and they don’t make sense to me


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> I would love if you can post some pics of this . I have a couple 3 corner stihl files and they don’t make sense to me



What's not making sense?


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## fool skip (Jan 21, 2018)

I don't have any pics but I will try to explain. Sharpen your chain with your round file like normal. Jam a wedge between your chain and bar so your chain is tight in the bar. You are going to make your strokes into the chain rather than out like a round file.Put the corner of the file into the corner of the tooth and stroke down and in. You will remove some of the excess material from the top plate and out of the corner. This will make it cut smoother and somewhat faster. You will notice your chips look different if you are doing it right. Hope this does not screw you up too bad. It takes a little practice. I used this method quite a bit working in frozen pine which would take the edge right off a ground chain.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

Frozen pine is almost as bad as standing dead oak with the bark off . Eats a chain like your in the dirt . Still haven’t learned to thrown on a loop of semi chisel “before “ a blunt out a full chisel in a half tank of fuel . 
I have a factory stihl ground square chain . No matter how I hold that file it doesn’t seem to look like it’s hitting the same angles . I’m going down the shop in a few to take another look with my new glasses  maybe I’ll takes some pics . I haven’t looked at the square grind in a few years after I looked at the files I got and it didn’t look proper . It’s very possible I’m I high functioning Retard .... sometimes simple things don’t register in my brain when explained . Show me and I understand instantly


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

Never had any rsl so I don't know how file friendly it's angles are. Here's an lgx I converted with a stihl hex file.


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## fool skip (Jan 21, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> Never had any rsl so I don't know how file friendly it's angles are. Here's an lgx I converted with a stihl hex file.
> 
> View attachment 627101


That should cut. How would you compare it to straight round file?


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> Never had any rsl so I don't know how file friendly it's angles are. Here's an lgx I converted with a stihl hex file.
> 
> View attachment 627101


That's good looking stuff!
What part of Missouri, I'll drop my chains off....


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

fool skip said:


> That should cut. How would you compare it to straight round file?



A little smoother & fed very well. Borderline to much for my cobbed up 359 in oak.


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

Dolmar Enthusiast said:


> That's good looking stuff!
> What part of Missouri, I'll drop my chains off....



Close to Springfield. I'll warn you I'm slow. Lol.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

Ok ok looks like my eyes are that bad . This is my first new pair of glasses in 10 years ....... I need some practice but I think I got the idea . Should have put on my thinking hat earlier


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> Close to Springfield. I'll warn you I'm slow. Lol.


Perfect I have been needing to go to Grizzly (my wife has learned not to let me go, without a good reason)
I am about an hour south of Branson, come see us if you're ever lost in Arkansas. The trout are biting...


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## Dolmar Enthusiast (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> Ok ok looks like my eyes are that bad . This is my first new pair of glasses in 10 years ....... I need some practice but I think I got the idea . Should have put on my thinking hat earlier View attachment 627109
> View attachment 627110
> View attachment 627111


Looking good, now all we need is a log...


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## Stihlone (Jan 21, 2018)

Thought about buying a Oregon grinder, have always hand filed but I'm not as good as I used to be and wondered about buying a grinder, suggestions please? Brand names, prices? Been looking on EBay
Thank-you


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> I missed this last night. The Stihl hex file has a smaller sideplate edge which leaves a considerably larger gullet & it won't work well for clearing them.




Why not ? As the file sits basically in the position to file the cutter. You file down and twist the file into the gullet. The flat takes out the gullet.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

6 evenings a week filing 2 or 3 105-127 driver full or semi skip 3/8 or 404 . 6 to8 months a year. Till I got a grinder. That's what it takes to keep bushlin . My filing jig was a hard nose. 28" bar . With 4. 1/2 ton pick up leaf springs welded on for legs. And a stool to sit on. Hook the toe of my romeo into the belly of the chain to hold it tight and use 2 hands-on the file. When touching up a chain out in the brush . I always file on 1 spot on the bar up by the tip. But, filing out in the brush takes time. And time is money. At a dollar a minute , a guy doesn't want to waste too many minutes fooling with a chain . A chain swap takes a minute or 2 . And is a welcome break while I would get ready for my 10 minute lunch.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

Stihlone said:


> Thought about buying a Oregon grinder, have always hand filed but I'm not as good as I used to be and wondered about buying a grinder, suggestions please? Brand names, prices? Been looking on EBay
> Thank-you


 I have the Oragon ax and a usg . Both are wonderful . I predicted the usg . It’s just built better and is tighter . Have can wheels for both . They are worth every penny


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## northmanlogging (Jan 21, 2018)

Stihlone said:


> Thought about buying a Oregon grinder, have always hand filed but I'm not as good as I used to be and wondered about buying a grinder, suggestions please? Brand names, prices? Been looking on EBay
> Thank-you


Depends on type of grinding you want to do.

Round, anything with a metal base, that isn't from horrible fright aka hazard fraught aka harbor freight for sure a case of you get what you pay for.

chisel your pretty much down to Simmington for new stuff, or paying the same for a Silvey assuming you can find one


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

Dolmar Enthusiast said:


> Looking good, now all we need is a log...


Just blew out a 16” chain in about 30 mins . It was round ground . Pretty easy to file oragon chain . I’ll try it out this week and see how it cuts . Looks like I’m getting into the side a bit much . I’ll have to adjust for that . But I’ll try it like it is for now . Me thinks it will blunt fast how it is .


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> Frozen pine is almost as bad as standing dead oak with the bark off . Eats a chain like your in the dirt . Still haven’t learned to thrown on a loop of semi chisel “before “ a blunt out a full chisel in a half tank of fuel .
> I have a factory stihl ground CHISEL chain . No matter how I hold that file it doesn’t seem to look like it’s hitting the same angles . I’m going down the shop in a few to take another look with my new glasses  maybe I’ll takes some pics . I haven’t looked at the square grind in a few years after I looked at the files I got and it didn’t look proper . It’s very possible I’m I high functioning Retard .... sometimes simple things don’t register in my brain when explained . Show me and I understand instantly



There , fixed it for ya.


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## Trx250r180 (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> Just blew out a 16” chain in about 30 mins . It was round ground . Pretty easy to file oragon chain . I’ll try it out this week and see how it cuts . View attachment 627144
> View attachment 627145


Nice work sir


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> Just blew out a 16” chain in about 30 mins . It was round ground . Pretty easy to file oragon chain . I’ll try it out this week and see how it cuts . View attachment 627144
> View attachment 627145




Your gettin there. You have a bit of an eagle beak on it . And you might look over the top of the cutters again to make sure they are Sharp. 
But That is looking pretty good for getting started. It will be a bit grabby. If you were falling big red cedar It would feed well. Putting a humbolt in a hard western hemlock would be a challenge. 
But all in all its good. Everyone that starts chisel filing has a ways to go before they are producing awesome chains every time.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

Do you guys go a bit aggressive on the depth gauges ? I have mine set on the 16”at .25 . Usually I set them at .30 on round ground . I prefer my chains a bit on the aggressive side and self feed well . I don’t like using the dogs for anything but felling . Most of my cutting is bucking


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Your gettin there. You have a bit of an eagle beak on it . And you might look over the top of the cutters again to make sure they are Sharp.
> But That is looking pretty good for getting started. It will be a bit grabby. If you were falling big red cedar It would feed well. Putting a humbolt in a hard western hemlock would be a challenge.
> But all in all its good. Everyone that starts chisel filing has a ways to go before they are producing awesome chains every time.


I saw the beak. Looks like I’m a bit into the sideplate . I’ll work on it . I’m cutting mostly oak and beech


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## fool skip (Jan 21, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> Do you guys go a bit aggressive on the depth gauges ? I have mine set on the 16”at .25 . Usually I set them at .30 on round ground . I prefer my chains a bit on the aggressive side and self feed well . I don’t like using the dogs for anything but felling . Most of my cutting is bucking


You should be fine as long as you do't have to saw any jack holes. Tramp knows what I'm talkin about.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

This is where my knowledge falters. It has been so many decades since I cut beach or oak that I can't say for 100% 
But ! I'm 85+% sure 25 k with the way the cutters look. It will feed well.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

I , myself wouldn't go Any deeper on the dg until you gave it a very good try!!


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## tramp bushler (Jan 21, 2018)

One reason on the west coast we go kinda hungry on our dg depth is we do most of our cutting on the front half of the bar.
What I do know about oak and beech is its not as hard as old growth Sitka spruce limbs. Which I rate as the hardest wood in Alaska.
Even with a good side hook and a little beak , nearly 40 k dg is what I run on 80 cc plus powerheads.

I do know fallers that run full comp 3/8s that run 30k on their depth gauges. And they have fast and smooth cutting chains. I hate full comp on a long bar . So I go deeper on my dg and more hook on my side.


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## concretegrazer (Jan 21, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Why not ? As the file sits basically in the position to file the cutter. You file down and twist the file into the gullet. The flat takes out the gullet.



Learning here. So your sharpening on the first what 1/2 to 2/3 of the stroke then rolling to the gullet? 





Knobby57 said:


> Just blew out a 16” chain in about 30 mins . It was round ground . Pretty easy to file oragon chain . I’ll try it out this week and see how it cuts . Looks like I’m getting into the side a bit much . I’ll have to adjust for that . But I’ll try it like it is for now . Me thinks it will blunt fast how it is . View attachment 627144
> View attachment 627145



Looking good. You're right it won't last long but should put a smile on.




Knobby57 said:


> Do you guys go a bit aggressive on the depth gauges ? I have mine set on the 16”at .25 . Usually I set them at .30 on round ground . I prefer my chains a bit on the aggressive side and self feed well . I don’t like using the dogs for anything but felling . Most of my cutting is bucking



I go by feel. Sounds like you'll like some forward lean. Don't go to far or you'll suck the power out.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 21, 2018)

I usually run chisel round ground . Gauges at .030 and am very happy with that . Beech isn’t all that hard ,oak isn’t bad either unless is dry , then it’s like cutting stone . Maple is the same way . Now black walnut that stuff just sucks on every level . Im going to try this chain as it is . Not too worried about ruining it .


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## Skeans (Jan 22, 2018)

is a chisel chain I run in all the time dog rakers setup I can't remember, I setup harvester 3/4" as well

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## tramp bushler (Jan 22, 2018)

concretegrazer said:


> Learning here. So your sharpening on the first what 1/2 to 2/3 of the stroke then rolling to the gullet?
> 
> 
> No , I give it 3 or 4 good strong liks , full length of the file pushing down into the gullet and some roll/ twist.
> ...




Well , that didn't come out quite copasetic. If you click to expand my reply is tucked in there.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 22, 2018)

That's the way I file, not in any way saying it's the best way. But it works for me.
An old master bushler named Jack Jodry taught me about keeping the gullet down and out of the way each time you file the cutters . Also copied his filing jig. He was cutting in Rowan Bay one time when I was there workin in the riggin.


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## madhatte (Jan 23, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> An old master bushler named Jack Jodery taught me about keeping the gullet down and out of the way each time you file the cutters .



Those are the guys ya want to pay attention to. They _know_ stuff.


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## lfnh (Jan 23, 2018)

Clean smooth gullets get the chip flow carried out of the kerf with less bind (friction) into side wall of mart
Imo, near as important as that 020-035 sharp side plate down from the corner. Both need each other.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 23, 2018)

The other thing a big gullet does is impede the cutter from cutting the full width. As the tooth gets narrower the further back the point gets. It rubs the side of the kerf. Narrower kerf means there is more friction on the sides of the bar and as ifnh says , chips don't clean out of the kerf as well which increases the tension on the sides of the bar. The sharpest cutter in the world can't fully overcome all that.


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## madhatte (Jan 23, 2018)

What I do with gullets is every few grinds I'll put them backwards on the 510 and grind them back to and even with the bottom of the ground portion of the cutter. Only takes a minute.


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## fool skip (Jan 24, 2018)

Another trick if you want a fast smooth chain is knock off the back corner of the chain with a grinder or file. If you notice on a used chain this corner will get shiny. That means it's rubbing somewhere. This used to be real popular around here. You're not losing anything you will ever use.


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## madhatte (Jan 24, 2018)

I think that's called a clipped corner. I've only seen it on race chains, but it makes sense. Maybe I'll give it a shot.


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## concretegrazer (Jan 25, 2018)

Clipped heal is how I've learned it.


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## madhatte (Jan 25, 2018)

I've heard that one too, might be more correct than "corner"


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## fool skip (Jan 25, 2018)

No use packing all that extra weight.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 25, 2018)

madhatte said:


> What I do with gullets is every few grinds I'll put them backwards on the 510 and grind them back to and even with the bottom of the ground portion of the cutter. Only takes a minute.



I have used a 510 for doing bullets also. Works like a million bucks !


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## tramp bushler (Jan 25, 2018)

fool skip said:


> Another trick if you want a fast smooth chain is knock off the back corner of the chain with a grinder or file. If you notice on a used chain this corner will get shiny. That means it's rubbing somewhere. This used to be real popular around here. You're not losing anything you will ever use.



Lots of guys that cut export would do that. I've done it also . But only for cutting export. It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back. With full skip 404 it makes a big difference !!
If anyone is doing much boring clipping the heel is a good thing to do.


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## Skeans (Jan 25, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Lots of guys that cut export would do that. I've done it also . But only for cutting export. It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back. With full skip 404 it makes a big difference !!


I'll have to try that next time I'm jacking anything.

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## madhatte (Jan 25, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> It Really smooths out the boring . And doesn't give as much of a running start to a tip kick back.



Makes sense. That back corner would be most exposed when deep in a bore, otherwise it's mostly trailing behind the chip. Might grind one for kicks, could always use a Swedish candle or two.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 25, 2018)

Ya , and putting in board notches.
When chasing the rot out of the butt cut. Poking a log every 2 feet or less . Trying to get a good log out with as short a long butt as possible. On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting. Every time I would to get the pistol butt out . I'de get a ass chewing from the bull buck. When the pulp market was down , there's still untold millions of feet of long butts laying out in thousands of units in southeast and south central AK. Now that we don't have any pulp mills in Alaska , there really isn't anything to do with them. Except put them all in a rock pit and torch them.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 26, 2018)

I think I still have a loop or 2 of semi skip 3/8s hanging in a nail here somewhere with clipped heels. 
Their pretty much wore out.


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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting.



Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?


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## northmanlogging (Jan 26, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?



You could sell on price per x? like the forest disservice does, bid x amount pay x up front then pay per month as the mill slips come. Seems to work fairly well, though the way the FS words it is frightening as all Hel. Then you folks would be getting paid on the volume of timber harvested, rather then on whats been cruised.

As for poles, I'm personally not real impressed with how the pole folks up here do (ahem DID) business, too much of a gamble, they will scale em on the landing, and even mark em standing, and give ya all sorts of positive numbers, but then once they get to the mill, then they really scale em, and start looking for defect, anything that falls out they still pay for, but its at a much lower price then you would get at the regular mill, and taint no refunds yo. Thats the part that gets me out of it, can't afford to send good #1 or SM logs to the pole people only to have them not like the blemish on 2' of one side, and reject what amounts to 2 logs, only to pay me a #4 price, scaled of course from the small end of a 70' stick no less.


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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya , and putting in board notches.
> When chasing the rot out of the butt cut. Poking a log every 2 feet or less . Trying to get a good log out with as short a long butt as possible. On Native land it was no biggy to leave long butts in the brush. Forest Service land . We couldn't do any long butting. Every time I would to get the pistol butt out . I'de get a ass chewing from the bull buck. When the pulp market was down , there's still untold millions of feet of long butts laying out in thousands of units in southeast and south central AK. Now that we don't have any pulp mills in Alaska , there really isn't anything to do with them. Except put them all in a rock pit and torch them.


You know I'd rather see that thinning then damn high stumps they suck they tear up equipment.

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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> I think I still have a loop or 2 of semi skip 3/8s hanging in a nail here somewhere with clipped heels.
> Their pretty much wore out.


Now that I think of it my dad use to clip the heel off on a new chain never asked why either maybe I should or the guys that taught him since they were up in your neighborhood.

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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Heh. I have been known to mark oversize in order to accumulate coarse woody from the longbutts. Before you loggerfolk get up in arms about that ripoff, know that my agency deliberately cripples our growth models in order to make cruises come up short, so we pretty much give away money. I've been fighting this for years to no avail. I've even asked "so what do you WANT the cruise to come out as? I'll find the equation to make that happen". We can only measure so well, after that it's up to the buyer to figure out utilization. We also don't bother to grade for poles, special mill, or anything except sawlogs. I'm pretty sure we're losing a lot of our possible revenue due to half-assed sale administration. We can sure as hell cruise for different products, it's just that the sale admins don't want to market them. Is it just me, or does this sound stupid?


Can I ask why you guys don't thin for an oversize say +32 to 24? For a 15 year rotation?

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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Then you folks would be getting paid on the volume of timber harvested, rather then on whats been cruised.



Sorta, except we get paid based on scale tickets. Mill stuff is totally not our baliwick. Bids are on $/BF and that's that. Once it crosses the scale we're done with it. I think that's the argument the admin types are insistent on washing their hands of. You never know whats really in a log until you unzip it, right? 



Skeans said:


> You know I'd rather see that thinning then damn high stumps they suck they tear up equipment.



Our contracts say 12", I've seen higher and lower. We are pretty much the only active skidder ground in the south sound region so we sorta leave it up to the contractor to make it work. In the end, I'm the one inconvenienced by a high stump in the long run. I have a few stands that I've cruised twice now, and 2 that I've cruised 3 times.




Skeans said:


> Can I ask why you guys don't thin for an oversize say +32 to 24? For a 15 year rotation?



That's a 9-beer conversation right there.


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## madhatte (Jan 26, 2018)

*to clarify, let's drink them beers, it's a hell of a tale


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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Sorta, except we get paid based on scale tickets. Mill stuff is totally not our baliwick. Bids are on $/BF and that's that. Once it crosses the scale we're done with it. I think that's the argument the admin types are insistent on washing their hands of. You never know whats really in a log until you unzip it, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe we can talk in the future you'll have to see what we do.

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## Skeans (Jan 26, 2018)

madhatte said:


> *to clarify, let's drink them beers, it's a hell of a tale


Many beers here at the farm and lots of acres to see of a small family operation over 100 years.

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## northmanlogging (Jan 26, 2018)

Price per mbf is about all you can hope for. Other then percentage splits but then thats sorta up to the bidder.

Once it gets scaled, then it gets graded, and thats the end of it for me, grade can change the price a whole bunch though.


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## madhatte (Jan 27, 2018)

Grading standing timber vs scaling logs are two very different disciplines. I'm a competent grader but I know exactly squat about scaling. 

Yeah, I'mma have to make it down there. Definitely interested in seeing your operations and stealing all the good ideas for use on our forest.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 27, 2018)

Scaling is part measurement, part grading for defect, part voodoo.

There are rules on how your supposed to deduct for each type of defect, either taking from the length or the diameter, as well as overall log grade.

But I'm pretty sure that some of the folks scaling timber are pretty sure I and others like me don't have much of a clue about it, Hence I don't send much wood to them folks that scale poorly, or take excessive amounts of deductions.

I mean losing 1000' off a load from "defect" is a pretty shitty way to do business, especially when I know what them logs looked like when they left here.

Come to think of it the last load I sent to one of them was over 4 months ago now.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 27, 2018)

Ya grade scaling is basically just a form of larceny.


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## madhatte (Jan 27, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Scaling is part measurement, part grading for defect, part voodoo



Didn't I give you a copy of the Bell & Dilworth orange book awhile back? If not, I will. That book is the rules for how things are done hereabouts. If you know that book, you know most of what I know. Pretty sure the pocket version is available through the usual suspects pretty cheap. Don't fret the revision -- I have several from 1980 to current and have yet to find an important difference.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 27, 2018)

Read it front to back, forgot a good 2/3's of it...

Largely it was focused on the cruising aspect, and there is just so much to do, that one guy on a day trip would get lost.

As for grade, about all I can do is size em up, buck for defect and sway when possible, but still need enough bunk logs to make the trip worth while, so its all a bit of a gamble. But a decent logger should be able to make a crap tree look like marketable logs with a little bit of fuss, its a big reason why i drag the 75' Spencer around.

Marking and bucking without looking at the whole tree, can get you in a world of hurt fast, so i mark as i go for a couple different lengths, then once I've made it all the way to the top or where its broke, then I can make a final decision as to where I really need to buck em. Four feet on the butt log, and another 4' on the middle can often be the difference between firewood and another long log out of the top.


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## madhatte (Jan 27, 2018)

Solid observations, all. 

As for cruising, where that stuff would be useful to you is in assessing the worst of the defect before the log hits the ground. Might make decisions easier. The diagrams in the first section are pretty handy in that regard.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 27, 2018)

Bucking for the best grade and price can give a guy A bad headache. This butt log is one of the higher dollar logs I've ever cut.
I fell the tree and limbed it. Then my friend and boss/owner of that sale . Climbed up on it and walked back and forth Several times. Which is a bit of a long and drawn out affair begins 1 leg is fused at the knee and ankle. Finally he had me buck it at around 47' from the butt.
He put it in the deck. Later, when he was hauling to the sorting yard. He massaged a perfect 40'10" log out of it. That 1 log sold for over $7,000.00 . The price he was paid for it delivered to the sorting yard.
I made maybe $20.00 falling ,limbing and bucking it.
It really was about a perfect log.
With the right market, grade bucking can REALLY pay for itself.


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## edwardo (Jan 29, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I got lucky and got a batch of Nicholson branded files made in Brazil awhile back that were the best I've ever had. Lasted forever. Would love to get another mess of those.


Ive got some old Nicholson mill bastards that belonged to my stepdad's dad who lived up in yellowknife. 
They still cut too.


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## edwardo (Jan 29, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> On the subject of sharpening...
> 
> Radiac bought out the old Pacific Grinding Wheel building, Picked up one of them white exter fine? wheels for the simington, just as good as the pacific wheels where, No pinks as yet though
> 
> ...



Have you ever heard of or come across dressing wax for chisel bit grinders? A fella over in Canada was telling me about how you are only getting the bits half as sharp wothout wax dressing.

I'm not even sure if it is wax. He certainly swore by it.


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## edwardo (Jan 29, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> I usually run chisel round ground . Gauges at .030 and am very happy with that . Beech isn’t all that hard ,oak isn’t bad either unless is dry , then it’s like cutting stone . Maple is the same way . Now black walnut that stuff just sucks on every level . Im going to try this chain as it is . Not too worried about ruining it .



Black walnut cuts like warm pumpernickle bread if your corners are right.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 29, 2018)

edwardo said:


> Have you ever heard of or come across dressing wax for chisel bit grinders? A fella over in Canada was telling me about how you are only getting the bits half as sharp wothout wax dressing.
> 
> I'm not even sure if it is wax. He certainly swore by it.



You can use any old cutting wax, available at most hardware stores. Folks use it for cutting wood and stuff on a band saws, or drilling etc, comes in a tube what looks like a grease tube, almost the same consistency, just a hard enough to maintain its shape.

I've used paraffin before but wasn't pleased with the results, that was on the blue ceramic wheel though, think I tried it on the brown wheel too.

The idea is to get some lube going, but all it really seems to do is clog the pores on the wheel faster, creating yet more need to dress the wheel.

I've considered setting up a spray mister, and running water or water soluble oil, exactly like we did in the machine shop, but it would be stupid messy in the forge, where I try to keep things mostly dry... this is a rain forest after all.


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## edwardo (Jan 29, 2018)

I really like the idea of a wet setup if it contained everything. I used to grind chains inside my chitty motel rooms but I don't wanna dust up my laundry room. I did a real number on my storage room before my current hiatus... Hiatuses suck.....


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## northmanlogging (Jan 29, 2018)

edwardo said:


> I really like the idea of a wet setup if it contained everything. I used to grind chains inside my chitty motel rooms but I don't wanna dust up my laundry room. I did a real number on my storage room before my current hiatus... Hiatuses suck.....



A mist setup never really contains everything, especially when elevated like a chain grinder.

But having a concrete floor and tools that don't mind a little damp helps, for now the grinder and all shop service stuff is in the forge, hammers and anvils don't like being wet at all. Dust they are ok with.


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## Knobby57 (Jan 29, 2018)

edwardo said:


> Black walnut cuts like warm pumpernickle bread if your corners are right.


Beech isn’t hard . But we have the blight happening on them and they rot standing . Seems to eat up a chain fast . And yes dead dry oak is like stone . Used to joke about needing a demo saw with a metal disk to cut it


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## tramp bushler (Jan 31, 2018)

Plenty of guys used to buy pre waxed stones. And I've cut with quite a few guys that kept a stick of wax on their grinder when they hadn't got a pre waxed stone. One guy I cut with used Tri Flow . he would dress the stone then would give the cutting edge a couple spritz s before he started grinding his chain. Since I was using his grinder a Pro Sharp. He wanted me to use the spray also. So I did. It worked fine. I could never get fully used to dressing pre waxed stones. Would always get a big snolly bomb of wax build up on the trailing edge of the diamond.


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## madhatte (Jan 31, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Would always get a big snolly bomb of wax build up on the trailing edge of the diamond.



Makes sense. I've tried a candle and WD but didn't venture much past that as far as wheel lubricants go. Neither seemed to make enough difference to justify the extra effort, or the loss of visibility in the corner.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 31, 2018)

I remember they marketed wax sticks called Cool Grind.
Seeing the corner was a problem I had with waxed stones also.
Maybe some people wash their chains in a solvent tank before grinding. I never had the time or energy. Neither did any of the guys I cut timber with. I often thot that having a 510 to grind the rock out of cutters that had been hit bad would work well. They always seem to hide a bunch of crap in them that would dirty up the cutting edge of the stone.
One thing I always liked about the Simington 451A. With its small motor it didn't have the power to blast out a tooth. Thy kept the tooth and the stone/wheel cooler. So the wheel took longer to accumulate the baked in crap that made it hard to see the corner. And reduced it cutting effectiveness.


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## Skeans (Jan 31, 2018)

If someone needs a grinder
https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/tls/d/silvey-razur-sharp-saw-chain/6469010039.html

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## northmanlogging (Jan 31, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> I remember they marketed wax sticks called Cool Grind.
> Seeing the corner was a problem I had with waxed stones also.
> Maybe some people wash their chains in a solvent tank before grinding. I never had the time or energy. Neither did any of the guys I cut timber with. I often thot that having a 510 to grind the rock out of cutters that had been hit bad would work well. They always seem to hide a bunch of crap in them that would dirty up the cutting edge of the stone.
> One thing I always liked about the Simington 451A. With its small motor it didn't have the power to blast out a tooth. Thy kept the tooth and the stone/wheel cooler. So the wheel took longer to accumulate the baked in crap that made it hard to see the corner. And reduced it cutting effectiveness.



I gots a 12v version of the 451, works pretty good, though i wish it had a touch more power.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 31, 2018)

Skeans said:


> If someone needs a grinder
> https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/tls/d/silvey-razur-sharp-saw-chain/6469010039.html
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


That looks an awful lot like a Simmington with a Silvey motor on it.


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## Skeans (Jan 31, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> That looks an awful lot like a Simmington with a Silvey motor on it.


Silvey made a swing arm too, at one time Silvey had 4 models of square grinders available.

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## northmanlogging (Jan 31, 2018)

I'm aware.

Just that one looks identical to my 451 minus the motor

Same castings, same chain guide, same stops, springs, same dressers. unless Simmington or silvey got sued over it, its pretty uncanny.

That and I though the Razur sharp wasn't a swing arm model?


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## Skeans (Jan 31, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm aware.
> 
> Just that one looks identical to my 451 minus the motor
> 
> ...


With Silvey all the motors were interchangeable they both looked a lot like, I'm not sure who produced one first my money would be on Silvey though Jack was a great guy to meet in person when he fixed my pro sharp for free. Only real reason Simington has had a come back is they're the only game in town for a few years they didn't make a grinder at all.

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## madhatte (Jan 31, 2018)

Grinder pictured ain't a Razur Sharp, unless that's what they called the swing arm before the RSII came out.


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## Skeans (Jan 31, 2018)

Here's what a new swingarm looked like in the later years, from memory it was the SDM that came out first then the swingarm, then Razor 1&2, then last was the pro sharp. Colors could be a few different depending on generation as well, all motors interchange minus some of the first grinders.






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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

I remember seeing those (and almost buying one!) at Madsens before they went extinct. Also, can confirm that all 3 of my Silvey grinders (RSII, 510, HDG-6) have the same motor. Somebody should make new castings available so folks could build their own.


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## Skeans (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I remember seeing those (and almost buying one!) at Madsens before they went extinct. Also, can confirm that all 3 of my Silvey grinders (RSII, 510, HDG-6) have the same motor. Somebody should make new castings available so folks could build their own.


Like my pro sharp my dad got at OLC for less then what it'd probably cost for casting 50 of them. Also the big P&D has the same motor as well as my pro sharp as my old 500.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I remember seeing those (and almost buying one!) at Madsens before they went extinct. Also, can confirm that all 3 of my Silvey grinders (RSII, 510, HDG-6) have the same motor. Somebody should make new castings available so folks could build their own.




Realistically, from a manufacturing point of few, Billet and CNC housings etc would likely be cheaper. Not to mention leaps and bounds more accurate then the horrible sand cast versions, Die casting is outrageously expensive, but every bit as accurate as billet when done right.

Damnit someone else follow up on this, I'm out damn you and I like it here... Oregon are you listening?


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## Skeans (Feb 1, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Realistically, from a manufacturing point of few, Billet and CNC housings etc would likely be cheaper. Not to mention leaps and bounds more accurate then the horrible sand cast versions, Die casting is outrageously expensive, but every bit as accurate as billet when done right.
> 
> Damnit someone else follow up on this, I'm out damn you and I like it here... Oregon are you listening?


I wonder if the patents are even up on the designs yet.

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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

Skeans said:


> I wonder if the patents are even up on the designs yet.



I think yes. Pretty sure somebody was making noise about buying the rights if they weren't but that was a good while ago and patents don't last anywhere near as long as it seems like they should. 



northmanlogging said:


> Oregon are you listening?



I asked that very question last time I talked to the engineering folks, and they seemed puzzled that I would wonder why they sold chain that they didn't also sell maintenance tools for. Apparently this is one of those questions you just don't ask. Same goes for Stihl and HVA, I reckon.


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## Skeans (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I think yes. Pretty sure somebody was making noise about buying the rights if they weren't but that was a good while ago and patents don't last anywhere near as long as it seems like they should.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked that very question last time I talked to the engineering folks, and they seemed puzzled that I would wonder why they sold chain that they didn't also sell maintenance tools for. Apparently this is one of those questions you just don't ask. Same goes for Stihl and HVA, I reckon.


When I was down at the shop Jack still had brand new castings but like he said who's going to pay for them anymore, he also said they hadn't sold a chisel grinder in a couple years and that was a razor sharp.

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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

All I know is I wan't a new Simmington, or really a less expensive version of one.

Old one works well enough, but its not nearly as adjustable as the newer models, and having a proper 110v 1/2hp motor would be a fair bit better then the 12v I have.

Granted the 12v works and all, but it takes for ever to get back up to speed.


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

Daaaang, a couple of years? It's not like there's no logging any more. This is an unexpected secondary (tertiary?) effect of the spotted owl decision -- as folks retire or otherwise move on, they are not passing on their knowledge. Chisel grind is not rocket science, but it's been a generation since "real" production stopped and the noobs have never heard of these arcane sciences. I did not expect this at all.



northmanlogging said:


> aving a proper 110v 1/2hp motor would be a fair bit better then the 12v I have.



Why not just fit a better motor to the base you have, or machine a new one?


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Why not just fit a better motor to the base you have, or machine a new one?



Motors are expensive, and the base is very different, couple that with no longer having access to machine shop machinery, makes it a little difficult to do it right.

Mostly I'm liking the adjustable swing arm of the new ones, mine has 2 options, too steep, and steeper. So the top side of my teeth look more like a round file tooth, the the more squared off chisel we all know from factory stuff. That and the carbide tooth locator, that is fixed and not all goofy from one side to the other.

They cut pretty good I guess, but not what I would like them too cut like.


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Motors are expensive, and the base is very different, couple that with no longer having access to machine shop machinery, makes it a little difficult to do it right.



I just bought a crappy milling machine. I'm teaching myself to use it. Holy hell, the tooling is gonna send me to the poorhouse.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> I just bought a crappy milling machine. I'm teaching myself to use it. Holy hell, the tooling is gonna send me to the poorhouse.



Look into ENCO products, they where affordable, and not hazard fraught junk. 

Stick with HSS tools for the time being as they are cheap, and you won't feel quite as bad detroying a bunch until you figure **** out...

And figure out spindle speeds...


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Look into ENCO products, they where affordable, and not hazard fraught junk.
> 
> Stick with HSS tools for the time being as they are cheap, and you won't feel quite as bad detroying a bunch until you figure **** out...
> 
> And figure out spindle speeds...



Solid advice. My machine is a JET-16 so it's a round column mill, and the speed is controlled by belts. The guide is useless but I do have a laser tach so I'm figuring out the speeds on my own. Already ruined a couple of end mills going too slow -- funny thing about torque multiplication, no? -- and now I'm really just scrambling to get enough small bits of scrap metal to learn on. Already made a T-slot cleaner out of a railroad spike; surely a 2/3 scale gas turbine isn't far off.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

PM me a list I might have some spare tools i could send your way.


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

Nice! On it.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Solid advice. My machine is a JET-16 so it's a round column mill, and the speed is controlled by belts. The guide is useless but I do have a laser tach so I'm figuring out the speeds on my own. Already ruined a couple of end mills going too slow -- funny thing about torque multiplication, no? -- and now I'm really just scrambling to get enough small bits of scrap metal to learn on. Already made a T-slot cleaner out of a railroad spike; surely a 2/3 scale gas turbine isn't far off.



Yeah, on one hand they put up with a lot, on the other its a fine line between production and breaking ****.

see if it will turn a 1/2 end mill, (600-1000 ripums through steel) its kind of my favorite size... then just feed it slow and smooth, making sure the chips are scooped out and away (conventional milling) rather then diving in and scooping towards material (Climb cutting). 

Manual machining is quickly becoming a lost art. Sadly one I'm more then happy to abandon, though if ya need a hand or what eves...


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

Oh and keep tools short and stubby when possible, if you can break a 1/2x1/2 cutter without slamming it into something, your doing it wrong.

As a rule of thumb, never exceed 3 times the diameter of a cutting tool (not always possible, but its a pretty good rule)

And keep the quill in the fully up position, unless the table don't raise then lower the head if possible, everything short and solid is the idear


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

Table don't raise. I wish it was a knee mill but it isn't. Already looking for an affordable Bridgeport. Hopefully 3-phase 220 so I can use a cheap VFD and not have to figure out 220V since the barn isn't wired for it.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

Everybody looking for a cheap bridgeport...

Found a mini Bridgeport couple years ago, for like $200, but all I had was $20, had a knee and everything but still fit on a table.


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

That's the dream right there. Two hunnert bones? I'll find a way.


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## northmanlogging (Feb 1, 2018)

its long gone the place what had it closed, I'm sure went for scrap...


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## madhatte (Feb 1, 2018)

Ah, tragedy. I hate it when stuff like that happens. Reminds me; oughta go cruise the DRMO and see what military junk is up for grabs.


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## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm aware.
> 
> Just that one looks identical to my 451 minus the motor
> 
> ...



I should prolly read what I've missed . But. 
There was a lawsuit between Simington and Silvey. One invented, one copied. I think Simington invented and Silvey copied. 
With the lawsuit. It spured Silvey to come up with the Razer Sharp ll , SDM4 and Pro Sharp. And probably other models. 
The newer Silvey Swing Arm came out when Simington wasn't in business for a while. 
At least that is how I remember it.


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## Skeans (Feb 24, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> I should prolly read what I've missed . But.
> There was a lawsuit between Simington and Silvey. One invented, one copied. I think Simington invented and Silvey copied.
> With the lawsuit. It spured Silvey to come up with the Razer Sharp ll , SDM4 and Pro Sharp. And probably other models.
> The newer Silvey Swing Arm came out when Simington wasn't in business for a while.
> At least that is how I remember it.



Thought the SDM was Silvey's original from the 70's then the swingarm came out around the same time frame as Simington? I did see a Simington booth at OLC not much activity there, we heard a few guys complaining their quality has gone down hill

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## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2018)

northmanlogging said:


> Motors are expensive, and the base is very different, couple that with no longer having access to machine shop machinery, makes it a little difficult to do it right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The steepness of either, top or side is controlled by the dressers. . 
If your swing arm is Not adjustable for up and down and in and out. Then your grinder is a 450. The 451 has the adjustable swing arm. 
Wether it's an A, B or C model. 
The 451 A had the small motor.



This is my 451A that the motor burned out on.


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## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2018)

Skeans said:


> Thought the SDM was Silvey's original from the 70's then the swingarm came out around the same time frame as Simington? I did see a Simington booth at OLC not much activity there, we heard a few guys complaining their quality has gone down hill
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



The way I heard it was Simington sued Silvey. 
BUT that was in a logging camp on Prince of Wales. 
I do know that All my Simington grinders have had the patent numbers cast and or stamped on them . quite prominently. 

Are new motors available for Silvey grinders ??


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## Skeans (Feb 24, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> The way I heard it was Simington sued Silvey.
> BUT that was in a logging camp on Prince of Wales.
> I do know that All my Simington grinders have had the patent numbers cast and or stamped on them . quite prominently.
> 
> Are new motors available for Silvey grinders ??


Any motor shop can get them they're a standard size.

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## tramp bushler (Feb 24, 2018)

Really ????? 
Reversible and the right rpm ??


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## Skeans (Feb 24, 2018)

tramp bushler said:


> Really ?????
> Reversible and the right rpm ??


Yeah

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## madhatte (Feb 24, 2018)

Yeah, motors are jellybean parts, you order them by spec. Voltage, phase #, RPM, shaft diameter, etc are all in a stamped code. This is long, but the important details are all in the first few minutes.


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## Skeans (Feb 24, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Yeah, motors are jellybean parts, you order them by spec. Voltage, phase #, RPM, shaft diameter, etc are all in a stamped code. This is long, but the important details are all in the first few minutes.


Some of the older grinders the motors were speced to the company and aren't available anymore it was mainly the mount that was different from memory.

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## madhatte (Feb 24, 2018)

Interesting. Should still be easy enough to match shaft diameter and length to something you can cobble together as an adapter even if the motor were otherwise extinct.


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## Skeans (Feb 24, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Interesting. Should still be easy enough to match shaft diameter and length to something you can cobble together as an adapter even if the motor were otherwise extinct.


Then you'd throw off wheel position which would throw off angles.

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## madhatte (Feb 24, 2018)

Longer shaft, and shims?


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## Skeans (Feb 25, 2018)

madhatte said:


> Longer shaft, and shims?


Possible I don't have an old enough one with that style motor, it was on the original SDM the housings are much larger vs my pro sharp, my old 510, and 3/4 P&D grinders. I know the super early SDM Mike was saying they were doing some machining to adjust some angles.

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## madhatte (Feb 25, 2018)

That sounds like a good weekend project.


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## Stihl 041S (Feb 25, 2018)

mdavlee said:


> Bahco bought Oberg. You can buy new Bahco files. Vallorbe has the best quality of any of them to me.


And Bahco got bought out too I think. Snap On
The fish symbol on the tools right?
Used to make FINE tools.


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## tramp bushler (Feb 25, 2018)

I remember one of the bushlers in Rowan Bay had an SDM4 with a motor similar to the one on my 451A. That was in the late 80s tho. 
Ill have to check with an electrical shop in Anchorage to see if they can get a motor like mine only new.


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## mdavlee (Feb 25, 2018)

Stihl 041S said:


> And Bahco got bought out too I think. Snap On
> The fish symbol on the tools right?
> Used to make FINE tools.


That's possible. I know they sell them through snap on


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