# Opinions on fireplace insert



## Rich M (Aug 20, 2006)

Getting ready to pull the trigger on a wood burning fireplace insert. Holy smokes are they expensive! The one we're looking at (only one I can find that will fit) is a flush mount Elite 33 by Fireplace Extrodinaire. Total cost is close to 4k. Our hearth is only 17-3/4" deep and sits directly on the floor hence the need for a flush mount. Our fireplace is huge so that aspect is not an issue. 

We use fuel oil and have an inefficent 50 y/o house, cinderblock on concrete slab. Burning 5-6 full cord a year in the fireplace w/heatilator has cut our heating bill by about a 3rd. Hoping that an insert will significantly reduce (if not eliminate) fuel oil use and hopefully cut down on wood use as well. The house is only 1500 s/f, single story, 9' celings and open floor plan. We're in NW Lower MI where the winters are long and cold.

What do you guys think, are my expectations resonable? If I could use it as my main source of heat, according to my calculations it will pay for itself in short order. Any opinions on the brand/model as well? Thanks in advance.


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## sawinredneck (Aug 20, 2006)

I would look for used, you would be amazed at what you can pick up in the newspaper for cheap! Worth spending some time and looking into, even on the net, at 4k seems like a lot of money to me. I had a new heater heatpump/air cond unit with metal duct work installed for $3200, and the savings off of the heatpump alone has paid for itself in 2 years, we are all electric here. I have a small Buck airtight that I suplement with, I can and have kept the house comfortable with just the wood stove and the generator running the fan, 1300sf.. And, got the stove used for $75 out of the news paper. Yes it's old technology and the newer ones are 100 times more eficient, but dollar to dollar, I can't complain!
I don't thinkyou're expectations are out of line, I may be, but I think the cost is!!! I would research a little more and find some other options. 4k seems very high to me for an insert!
Andy


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## Rich M (Aug 20, 2006)

Yeah, I about fell over when they quoted. It does include a full chimeny reline in stainless steel, blower, tax etc. I'm trying to bide my time looking at every possible source but heating season is nearly a month away and I can't find anything that will fit on our hearth. Thanks for the help.


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## olyman (Aug 20, 2006)

why reline your fireplace chimney--it bad--also--if you have a tractor supply in your area--go check out their woodstoves--and the prices!!!!!


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## elektrobot (Aug 20, 2006)

*Quadrafire 2700*

You might want to check out the quadrafire 2700. it is only 17 1/16" deep, and might work a little better, or be a little cheaper than the one you are currently looking at. Good luck finding one you like! I installed an insert last novermber and it works great. It will be a huge improvement over what you have right now. Its amazing how much heat these things can put out.

you can check out the quadrafire at: http://www.quadrafire.com/products/inserts/woodInsertDetail.asp?f=2700i


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## Patrick62 (Aug 20, 2006)

*That sounds a little high to me*

Inserts can be had, and they work well. The stainless steel lining is simply a long piece of flex pipe. I installed the one here, the only tricky part was getting it thru the existing fire place damper (sawzall).

Hooking it to the insert was a little tricky as well, but not a real big deal.

The more efficient burn means more heat from less wood.

-Pat


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## Rspike (Aug 20, 2006)

All the information you will need . If you cant find it ......... go to the forums and ask . A world of information . http://www.**********/community.html


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## sawinredneck (Aug 20, 2006)

Excelent post rspike!!!
Andy


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## Rspike (Aug 20, 2006)

Com-mon in , Join the Hearth community . Pull up a seat around the fire .


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## Rspike (Aug 21, 2006)

Nice stove treeco ............ Alright ,Ya get it started now. I'll have to dig one up of mine.


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## Rspike (Aug 21, 2006)

Pacific Energy Summit . “Classic” ~Porcelain Enamel “Sunset Red” freestanding http://www.pacificenergy.net/ 
<img src="http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/Roospike/FOURM/P.jpg"> <img src="http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/Roospike/FOURM/PIC00005.jpg">


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## 046 (Aug 21, 2006)

I agree that a free standing fire box is better than an fireplace insert. much easier to duct heat into main house ducts. 

for my house's layout with an existing HUGE fireplace. an insert made more sense. it's just makes running ducts much harder. 

I've done a series posts on my JUCA fireplace insert. which uses technology better by a large margin than ANY other wood burning insert that I'm aware of. 

JUCA's firebox is HUGE, can burn up to 2ft X 2ft wood. but most of the time I throw in 24in X 12in unsplit logs. burns very_clean, creates very little creosote and smoke. 

this JUCA is one big heat exchanger. 

best of all is I paid approx. $1,800 shipped to my door. this is for a custom built fireplace-insert, spec'd to my fireplace's dimensions. price paid included extra for oversize and variable fan controls. 

These JUCA guys are totally honest and are backed up with orders. I had to wait almost three years. once my order was placed and deposit sent. it went pretty quick. 

insert fit like a glove into my odd sized hand built fireplace. switched entirely to wood heat last season. installed in Jan so, didn't get to use an entire season. performed really well. 

still need to duct output into main ducts and install a larger blower motor.

do a search for JUCA and you'll find their website, which contains the most info on wood buring on WWW.


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## belgian (Aug 21, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I'll take a free standing stove any day over an insert. I do not like the sounds of fans running. It's nice not needing electricity for those times the power is out. We also cook on ours during power failures.



Treeco mentioned an important point here. We have also an insert wood stove with fans to regulate the heat output. Inserts are very popular at this side of the pond, and cost about 2500 $ uninstalled, depending on size and type. 

Ours is a 9 kW model, but you really need to put the electrical fans at its max. power to achieve this kind of output and decent efficiency, and at this level, the noise is really a PITA. My father has a stand alone wood fireplace without fans and I must admit that heat efficiency is a lot better than ours. If you have the space to put one, and heating is more important than design, I recommend the free standing one.
roland


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## 046 (Aug 21, 2006)

a few issues ...

1. it takes large Cubic feet per minute (cfm) to deliver enough BTU's needed to air condition your house. look at the size of your existing ducts. So yes air handlers large enough move 1,500 - 2,500 cfm, enough to air condition a house will generate noise. 

2. Airtight designs can't use extensive heat exchangers to improve efficiency. Airtight designs produces creosote in smoke, and creosote condenses at approx. 350°F. airtight stoves must not be extremely efficient. Otherwise, massive creosote accumulation would result in chimney systems. 

3. JUCAs are non-airtight like a normal fireplace. fire burns very cleanly. very little creosote in the smoke, so JUCA can capture max amount of heat in the smoke! super efficient JUCA can have smoke temperatures of 250°F. capturing 100+ degrees of heat from the smoke. so how large heat exchange area is available, determinds how much heat is captured before heading up the chimney. look at photo posted above of JUCA insert, note huge heat exchange area.


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## Rich M (Aug 21, 2006)

Great information, thanks guys. We don't have the space for a freestanding woodstove or I would certainly go that route. The existing fireplace has a heatilator with blowers so I'm used to some noise. While I could save a buck going with a smaller unit I want a large firebox and as mentioned earlier it has to be flush mounted because of my hearth. These 2 factors are severly limiting my choices. I checked with the largest, best known dealer in my region and his price for the same unit/install was exactly the same.

If I can use less wood and nearly (if not entirely) elminate the fuel oil it's a done deal because the savings should pay for it in a few years. Thanks again for the links and advice.


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## monk680 (Aug 21, 2006)

My insert provides almost 90% of my heat. You will be pleased with your insert.


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## 046 (Aug 23, 2006)

besides costs of fireplace insert. look to see how big the firebox is. this determinds how large load of wood you can insert = how long max burntime

don't be fooled by front of insert size. most mfg will make firebox small and face plate large. this is done to fit max number of fireplaces. 

this is where a custom built fireplace insert has a real advantage. you can make firebox largest allowable size limited by how large your fireplace is. 

here's a picture of front of my JUCA insert. compare that to picture of backside to show how massive JUCA firebox/heat exchange area actually is. 

size of logs burning in picture is aprox. 2ft long


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## Rich M (Aug 23, 2006)

Wow, that Juca is huge! But...a 3 year wait?!? I suppose that's to be expected with custom manufacturing but we can't wait that long. Our fireplace is large and we are going with the largest insert/firebox we can fit into it. 

Incidentally, we have decided to go with a Country Stoves C310. I was somewhat mislead by the first dealer as to hearth clearances. The Country Stoves dealer showed us hearth pads/extensions that solve that problem. The C310 protrudes 9" onto the hearth providing a cook top and much better radiant heat, more like a free standing stove, and is about $500 less! Glad I took the time to shop around and talked to more than one "salesman".


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## 046 (Aug 23, 2006)

Delivery was actually 60 days after I made my 50% deposit. JUCA stopped taking orders for the longest time. 

3 years was how long I waited before they would take my order. 

it may be worth a try contacting JUCA to see how production schedule is. last I heard they were cranking up production again. they may be able to one done long before winter. 

if they can fit you in, aprox. $1,800 for a state of the art custom insert VS paying $3,000-$4,000 for a stock insert of simular size.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 23, 2006)

elektrobot said:


> You might want to check out the quadrafire 2700. it is only 17 1/16" deep, and might work a little better, or be a little cheaper than the one you are currently looking at. Good luck finding one you like! I installed an insert last novermber and it works great. It will be a huge improvement over what you have right now. Its amazing how much heat these things can put out.
> 
> you can check out the quadrafire at: http://www.quadrafire.com/products/inserts/woodInsertDetail.asp?f=2700i





Nother vote for the Quad.


I have the 5100I, 3 cubic foot firebox takes 22" logs and is super efficent with its 4 burn zones. Their made from 3/8" and 5/16" boiler plate and come with a 20-30yr warranty.


The fans arent so bad on these, but If any fans bother you you can convert over to squirrel cage fans witch are nearly silent.


The neat thing about the quads is the entire stove is the heat exchanger. Air is blown into the walls of the stove from underneath, allowed to blow around and up the sides and rear then blown out the vent on the top/front of the stove.


Everything but the door (1/2"cast iron) adds to the stream of hot air coming out the front into the room.


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## Rich M (Aug 23, 2006)

046 said:


> if they can fit you in, aprox. $1,800 for a state of the art custom insert VS paying $3,000-$4,000 for a stock insert of simular size.



$3-$4k includes delivery/install/ss reline/tax etc. The C310 insert is around 2k. I like the idea of a cook top for power failures too. Thanks for all the help.


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## laynes69 (Aug 23, 2006)

Not to step on any toes, But I have a Hotblast Wood Furnace, Around 20 years old with a forced draft kit installed on a thermostat. I don't get any smoke out of the chimney only on start up. Its ducted in series with my propane furnace which all of the air in the furnace goes through the wood furnace. Produces a hell of alot of heat with a few small pieces of wood. Since its in series, just sounds like the gas furnace kicking on. Anything will burn pretty efficient if you have good burning habits. Don't restrict all of the oxygen to the fire, burn your fire hot, and Use seasoned wood. Especially the newer stoves and such don't like wet green wood, Plus trying to burn green wood you waste energy trying to get the wood up to combustible temperatures. So its what you make of it, and how your burnig habits are.


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## Rspike (Aug 23, 2006)

laynes69 said:


> Not to step on any toes, But I have a Hotblast Wood Furnace, Around 20 years old with a forced draft kit installed on a thermostat. I don't get any smoke out of the chimney only on start up. Its ducted in series with my propane furnace which all of the air in the furnace goes through the wood furnace. Produces a hell of alot of heat with a few small pieces of wood. Since its in series, just sounds like the gas furnace kicking on. Anything will burn pretty efficient if you have good burning habits. Don't restrict all of the oxygen to the fire, burn your fire hot, and Use seasoned wood. Especially the newer stoves and such don't like wet green wood, Plus trying to burn green wood you waste energy trying to get the wood up to combustible temperatures. So its what you make of it, and how your burnig habits are.


How long of burn time do you get out of your wood fernace ? I have seen some of these run and do put out a lot of heat but dont normally see any that will burn only a few logs for up to 10-12 hours of heat .I had a friend that went from the wood fernace to a free standing modern EPA stove and it ended up saving him fro burning 8 cords a year to 3.5 cords to heat the same house . I see a lot of sales on them but dont see too many people brag or talk about them . What input you have would be great .


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## laynes69 (Aug 23, 2006)

Since the forced draft was installed it was reduced down to 6 to 8 max hours. I fill it and burn it hot at around 9:00 to 9:30 pm, and damper it by 10:00 I wake up about 5:00 am and its got a good hot coal bed. Through out the day, My wife can burn about 5 pieces of wood, split around 4 to 5 inches in diameter and produce enough heat to go from 8am to 2pm. Everytime I have had to sweep the chimney it was clean,all winter. I had no way of putting in a epa free standing stove, my house is 2500 Square feet, 10 foot ceilings, over 150 years old. It heats the basement because its in there, the first floor, and the second floor. Upstairs we have 5 bedrooms. We started burning wood in late august, early september, and ended in late march, early april, and burned around 6 cords of wood. I cant complain, but I tied mine in series. It keeps the house around 76 all winter.


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## Rspike (Aug 24, 2006)

laynes69 said:


> Since the forced draft was installed it was reduced down to 6 to 8 max hours. I fill it and burn it hot at around 9:00 to 9:30 pm, and damper it by 10:00 I wake up about 5:00 am and its got a good hot coal bed. Through out the day, My wife can burn about 5 pieces of wood, split around 4 to 5 inches in diameter and produce enough heat to go from 8am to 2pm. Everytime I have had to sweep the chimney it was clean,all winter. I had no way of putting in a epa free standing stove, my house is 2500 Square feet, 10 foot ceilings, over 150 years old. It heats the basement because its in there, the first floor, and the second floor. Upstairs we have 5 bedrooms. We started burning wood in late august, early september, and ended in late march, early april, and burned around 6 cords of wood. I cant complain, but I tied mine in series. It keeps the house around 76 all winter.


Good information . Your numbers dont look too bad for the age and size of your house. A lot of the time its just the opposite and its the house that dont have room for a wood furnace. I rented an older home (100+ years old ) when we moved from one state to another until we found a house to buy and it had a 1932 wood furnace in the basement ......... 13+ truck loads of wood in 1 year to heat that bastard . With a newer stove and better insulation I'm sure thing would of been a lot different .


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## 046 (Aug 24, 2006)

no relining of chimney needed for JUCA because it's an open burn design. it's also open floor, retaining usage of existing firebrick, damper, gas fire starter and external ashe dump. 

there's no sales tax and installation was a breeze. only thing I did was cut-off damper control arm and slide JUCA in. perfect fit! JUCA comes fully assembled. you specify blower on right or left side. 

I did have to fab a new damper control rod. but that was pretty simple. 

my JUCA firebox size is aprox. 12 cubic feet VS typical 3 cubic feet. 

exterior of JUCA doesn't heat up much, due to heat exchanger design delivering heat to blower instead. 

wood usage will veri by location/house size. there's a wood usage calculator on JUCA's site that factors all that in. 

since I've not used JUCA a full season yet. can't give actual numbers. JUCA's calculator indicates 2.5 cords seasoned oak for 2,500 sf, NE Okla. 

So I'm planning on 3.5 cords based upon 1/2 season usage last winter, hopefully it will be less. 

I should have ducts installed by then, that will increase heat distribution. my house is one level ranch design. 



Rich M said:


> $3-$4k includes delivery/install/ss reline/tax etc. The C310 insert is around 2k. I like the idea of a cook top for power failures too. Thanks for all the help.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 24, 2006)

046 said:


> my JUCA firebox size is aprox. 12 cubic feet VS typical 3 cubic feet.





WHAT???????????


No way, 3 cubic feet is anything but typical.


I cant be sure just from the pics, but I dont think that is even an EPA stove.


Looks allmost like a heatilator.


Any idea how many BTU?


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## laynes69 (Aug 24, 2006)

One more thing I forgot to add about my woodfurnace, It will burn soft (ohio) Coal or Anthracite Coal. On those harsh winter nights, If I think I need ALOT of heat in the house, -10 temps, Ill load about 50 to 75 pounds of hard coal, and it will burn HOT for at least 12 to 14 hours. So I have some lump coal and I keep around 400 pounds of hard coal around just in case I need it. You just never know.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Three cubic feet is a large insert. The JUCA is much larger. I doubt you will take the time to read their web site but it is the best you will find on the web.
> 
> Even squirrel cage fans make too much noise for me. As they age they get louder and louder.





Well, if you have so thoroughly read their website mabye you can tell us their stoves operating principal? And is it an EPA rated stove? What were the EPA test results? Why does their stove operate in an entierly different method than allmost every EPA stove?


And most importantly will your local township give you a permit to install one? Will your homeowners cover you with it installed?



I would have these answers for my self but it seems the manufacturer cant sum this in a few pages. Why over 100 pages?

Is there something they dont want me to know?


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## Rich M (Aug 24, 2006)

First thing I found on the Juca site is a link titled "Bad News", it states they no longer manufacture their products.


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## laynes69 (Aug 24, 2006)

EPA Certified means they have spent Millions of Dollars in research and testing. A do it yourself person with the knowledge could build one to pass the certification, but it costs alot too much money. Tons of woodburners are modified for a cleaner burn. There are alot of people that can burn wood with little to no smoke, and burn efficiently. Of course things that affect them are enough oxygen, high burning temperatures, complex baffles, and so on. Some EPA wood stoves can burn very poorly if they use green wood, cut down the draft too much. Alot rides on the operator. I do believe EPA Standards are so the big boys can dip their hands in the money jar.


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## RaisedByWolves (Aug 25, 2006)

I read, but I aint readin no 100 pages:help: 


They state that their stove isint much different than an open fireplace and therefore dosent need an EPA rating.




RaisedByWolves said:


> I cant be sure just from the pics, but I dont think that is an EPA stove.
> 
> 
> Looks allmost like a heatilator.
> ...





I simply asked two questions (neither directed to you) and you jumped, Why I dont know.


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## laynes69 (Aug 25, 2006)

I agree with you Raised By Wolves, I was on there a while back. I read alot about these stoves, and dont understand them. I dont see how they can burn as good as they say, with it being like an open fireplace. It would have to be more complicated inside.


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## 046 (Aug 25, 2006)

yep JUCA passes EPA, barely see smoke when operating..

think of it this way... regular fireplaces have been operating for hundreds of years. that's because most fireplaces are hot enough to reach a complete burn. JUCA operates the same way. 

I forget the spec's to my JUCA (calculator on JUCA site), but when cranking full blast. living room gets way too hot to be in. I've got to open all doors to cool down room. opening up draft also helps cool things down. this speeds up smoke up chimney. 

in normal operation, you control rate smoke goes up chimney. you want max smoke contact time with heat exchanger surface, without smoke backing up into room. 

carbon monoxide can kill, a CO detector always sits on mantle and bedroom. 

airtight wood stoves control burn by reducing air to fire. this results in an incomplete burn. that's why catalytic converters are used by some. newer/better technology airtights gain a complete burn by controlling flow patterns to complete burn process. these later designs are excellent. 

you control burn-time in JUCA by size of logs used. only the surface burns. this reduces amount of splitting needed. 

JUCA's design is clearly better than anything I'm aware of. only catch is getting one....

when you look at how complex the construction process with 1/4in steel plate. one understands why it's hard to duplicate. 

note how raised leg design allows smoke to go under and around back side of insert. 










RaisedByWolves said:


> WHAT???????????
> No way, 3 cubic feet is anything but typical.
> 
> I cant be sure just from the pics, but I dont think that is even an EPA stove.
> ...


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## smiley (Oct 23, 2006)

*Off brand insert advice needed*

I picked this insert up 3 or 4 yrs ago for hauling it away. In spite of it's rusty appearance now, it appears to have had almost no use and the new owner of the house it was in, installed a pellet insert. I was scared off from installing it by the horror stories of creosoted chimneys and houses burning down. While browsing on this site, I saw the JUCA insert and read their website. According to them, the horror stories are because of the airtight inserts. This unit is not an airtight and has no name on it, but the design is similar to the JUCA, with the jacket surrounding the firebox, but with the tubes vertical instead of horizontal.
Over at ********** they say no inserts without ss chimney connection.
I'd appreciate advice from anyone with experience with these type units. Especially the safety aspect.
Thanks,
Smiley
PS
I can't seem to bring the photo up when clicking attached images. If it's not working, let me know and I'll repost the photo


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## curdy (Oct 24, 2006)

Check local stove shops and talk to the owner. Ask them if they can call you when they replace a wood insert for someone. Its not rare for somebody to feel the need to move on to using a gas insert (either because of age or lack of desire to burn wood) and have their wood insert removed. This is what I did. Picked up a like new Regency insert for $150 less than 25 minutes from my house. The guy even refinished it for me.


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## 046 (Nov 12, 2006)

non-air tight inserts like JUCA require no liners because of minimal amount of creosote created. this is purely due to high operating temps. 

air tight wood stove/inserts require stainless liners due to fire hazards created by large amounts of creosote generated. the person that posted his cat was working as he was removing large amounts of creosote from his chimney.

when starting up JUCA smokes like a normal chiminey. but after JUCA heats up to normal operating temps. hardly smokes at all. 



smiley said:


> I picked this insert up 3 or 4 yrs ago for hauling it away. In spite of it's rusty appearance now, it appears to have had almost no use and the new owner of the house it was in, installed a pellet insert. I was scared off from installing it by the horror stories of creosoted chimneys and houses burning down. While browsing on this site, I saw the JUCA insert and read their website. According to them, the horror stories are because of the airtight inserts. This unit is not an airtight and has no name on it, but the design is similar to the JUCA, with the jacket surrounding the firebox, but with the tubes vertical instead of horizontal.
> Over at ********** they say no inserts without ss chimney connection.
> I'd appreciate advice from anyone with experience with these type units. Especially the safety aspect.
> Thanks,
> ...


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## allthegross (Jan 28, 2008)

046 said:


> no relining of chimney needed for JUCA because it's an open burn design. it's also open floor, retaining usage of existing firebrick, damper, gas fire starter and external ashe dump.
> 
> there's no sales tax and installation was a breeze. only thing I did was cut-off damper control arm and slide JUCA in. perfect fit! JUCA comes fully assembled. you specify blower on right or left side.
> 
> ...



Juka looks like a huge unit but would seem very inefficient. any idea on your effeciency rating. the problem i see is that you are sending the air you paid to heat back up your chimney by not having xternal combustion air. the unit im heating with is completely sealed using external combustion air. i only get a small amount of smoke out of my chimney only when restocking. zero smoke when at operating temp and i usually keep the insert at about 400 to 450 and could let it get hotter if needed but find that seems to be my best operating temp. so far i have only hooked up one of the xtra zones to the basement but have the capability of hooking up two.

juka? is it epa rated


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## allthegross (Jan 28, 2008)

*should also mention*

i just cleaned my chimney after burning at least four to five cord since the last cleaning and some of the wood was not as dry as it could have been and filled about 1/4 of a one gallon bucket with dust and creosote. i think that is pretty good but will start to clean it a little more regularly. i probably keep my fire a little hotter than most but heck in not to worried about wood consumption. if i keep it going 24/7 i burn 5 cord. much better than the 2000 gallons of oil i used to consume


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## allthegross (Jan 28, 2008)

*r u serious*



laynes69 said:


> EPA Certified means they have spent Millions of Dollars in research and testing. A do it yourself person with the knowledge could build one to pass the certification, but it costs alot too much money. Tons of woodburners are modified for a cleaner burn. There are alot of people that can burn wood with little to no smoke, and burn efficiently. Of course things that affect them are enough oxygen, high burning temperatures, complex baffles, and so on. Some EPA wood stoves can burn very poorly if they use green wood, cut down the draft too much. Alot rides on the operator. I do believe EPA Standards are so the big boys can dip their hands in the money jar.



and i thought epa standerds ment they produce less partical emissions and xtract more heat from the unit. as far as a lack of oxygen dont they have a adjustment that will go from letting way to much oxygen to letting zero oxygen in....your choice...im glad you guys got me straightened out thats why newcomers like me go to as


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## 046 (Jan 28, 2008)

notice the ash hole in floor. that's been converted into an outside air, updraft duct. so I don't use any fresh air from inside house. 

if your insert is not producing smoke at operating temp. then it's burning very cleanly. how much smoke comes out of chimney after wood stove reaches operating temps is a sure fire indicator if stove is burning cleanly. 

proof positive is how much creosote comes out chimney after a full season. after two full seasons, my chimney had little to no creosote buildup using my JUCA insert. 

JUCA is constructed from 1/4in plate and rated for coal. seems an updraft fresh air vent is required to burn coal. I'll be trying out coal hopefully real soon. still need to chase down coal grate and coal. 



allthegross said:


> Juka looks like a huge unit but would seem very inefficient. any idea on your effeciency rating. the problem i see is that you are sending the air you paid to heat back up your chimney by not having xternal combustion air. the unit im heating with is completely sealed using external combustion air. i only get a small amount of smoke out of my chimney only when restocking. zero smoke when at operating temp and i usually keep the insert at about 400 to 450 and could let it get hotter if needed but find that seems to be my best operating temp. so far i have only hooked up one of the xtra zones to the basement but have the capability of hooking up two.
> 
> juka? is it epa rated


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## allthegross (Jan 28, 2008)

interesting...now makes more sense. how about the btu and efficiency rating


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## 046 (Jan 28, 2008)

flat don't remember that btu ratings are... don't think mfg ever gave an effeciency rating. If I had to make a guess. I'd say newer EPA rated stoves with secondary burn would be more efficient, than JUCA with it's open burn design. 

JUCA's design has been in production 20+ years. it's strength is super efficient heat exchange. entire insert is double wall 1/4in thick. in other words insert is hollow allowing air max contact time. it's one big efficient heat exchanger. 






allthegross said:


> interesting...now makes more sense. how about the btu and efficiency rating


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## allthegross (Jan 29, 2008)

046 said:


> flat don't remember that btu ratings are... don't think mfg ever gave an effeciency rating. If I had to make a guess. I'd say newer EPA rated stoves with secondary burn would be more efficient, than JUCA with it's open burn design.
> 
> JUCA's design has been in production 20+ years. it's strength is super efficient heat exchange. entire insert is double wall 1/4in thick. in other words insert is hollow allowing air max contact time. it's one big efficient heat exchanger.



OK I HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH ON IT NOW...IM WILLIN TO BET YOU SELL THESE THINGS OR WORK FOR THEM IN SOME WAY. IF I JUST PULLED YOUR CARD JUST P.M. ME AND LET ME KNOW I WONT TELL. LOOKS LIKE IT HEATS WELL THOUGH


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## 046 (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks for remembering me treeco!!

allthegross, sorry to disappoint you but I have absolutely no interests in JUCA. 

as a matter of fact, technology has progressed since I've purchased a JUCA insert. my recommendations is to check out the newer EPA wood stoves. without question they are more efficient than JUCA. 

JUCA is no slouch either, but no way is more efficient than newer technologies. JUCA also has some advantages... like being able to burn green and seasoned wood cleanly. 

takes almost twice as much green wood to equal heat output using seasoned wood. soooo... no you don't want to burn green wood, unless of course you run out of wood near end of season and are forced to. anyone ever done that?  

it's also rated for coal, which I hope to be trying soon. still trying to find out how much smoke coal will generate. 

firebox is 12 cubic feet or close to having OWB capacity inside. can easily burn 1ft x 2ft logs if I want. another neat feature of JUCA is use of original firebrick, ash dump and gas lighter tube. very easy installation due to no duct work required. 





allthegross said:


> OK I HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH ON IT NOW...IM WILLIN TO BET YOU SELL THESE THINGS OR WORK FOR THEM IN SOME WAY. IF I JUST PULLED YOUR CARD JUST P.M. ME AND LET ME KNOW I WONT TELL. LOOKS LIKE IT HEATS WELL THOUGH


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## Wood Doctor (Jan 30, 2008)

*Federal Airtight 288*

I bouught this Federal Aiitight 288 (large) about 20 years ago, and it still works very well.






I imagine it would just barely fit on an 18" hearth extending from the fireplace opening. This is not a zero-clearance insert, but more of an extension, similiar to a free-standing stove that gets more radiant heat into the room.

These models may not even be available anymore, but even a used one would probably work well for you. Mine easily handles a 24" to 25" log and has a side loading door that I really like.





The cook top of this stove will reach 1400 degrees when the north wind is howling away outside. I have this stove connected to a masonry chimney that's about three stories high, so the draft is enormous. The secondary combustion chamber and the internal air circulation that was designed into the stove provides excellent control of the fire and very complete combustion. I seldom have any cinders remaining at all, regardless of what species of wood that I burn. This stove swallows "all nighters" like jaws, so I nicknamed her "Jaws".

I can generally boil off 2 gallons of water a day to add moisture to the air by using just one tea kettle. At night, I turn on a thermostatically-controlled blower that circulates more convection heat into the room.

The downside is that I am now having trouble finding parts, and after 20 years, a few are in need of replacement. I'm somewhat convinced that it will be difficult to improve on Jaws.


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## 046 (Jan 30, 2008)

doctor ed, that looks like an excellent wood stove!!

that side loading feature really looks handy. looks like no blower is needed. 

would you please post pictures of secondary burn chamber? 
really interested in how airtight did that. does this model have a cat converter?


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## Wood Doctor (Jan 30, 2008)

*More Federal Airtight Features*



046 said:


> would you please post pictures of secondary burn chamber? really interested in how airtight did that. does this model have a cat converter?



This model does have a cat converter, but I only use it about half the time. They are also getting hard to find. Instead, I have a 3/16" cast iron plate in the cat flue chamber that has a bunch of 3/8" holes in it, equally spaced. 

That plate gets red hot also and will take the flue gases to 1300 F. I notice very little reduction in burn time when using the plate (and it's a lot easier to clean). I believe Federal suplied this as a damper choke for those wanting to burn coal rather than wood. With the draft I have from my tall chimney, I sometimes think I'm burning coal. Heheheh.

The way that secondary combustion chamber works, a block off plate drops down using a handle on the far left above the loading door. That locks into position and redirects almost all the flue gases to go into the secondary chamber at the top of the stove and then out the cat combuster flue. From there it exits to the chimney.

With the block off plate open, the flue gases would simply go directly from the firebox to the chimney, the path of least resistance. That's how you light the stove. Then when the gases reach about 400 to 500 F, I close the block off plate and send the secondary chamber into action. When that occurs, (about 15 minutes after initial light up) the cook top creaks and growns like a working slave as it heats up, and the whole stove starts to get hot immediately.

Another neat feature of this stove is the ash pan below the shaker grates. Even with the fire running, you can open that door below the main combustion chamber, pull out, and empty the ash pan. If you time it right, the ashes in the pan are surprisingly only a step above room temperature. I could dump these directly into a plastic trash bag without fear--no joke.

The shaker grates filter the ashes and hold the hot ones above. Theoretically, you could run this stove for several weeks and never let the fire go completely out, dumping the ashes once every six hours after shaking the grates a few trimes. In short, this was an ingenious design, and I'm not sure if there are any stoves out there that replicate it today.


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## 046 (Jan 30, 2008)

sure sounds like a very well though out design. 

so you are running stove without a cat due to no parts? newer designs do away with cat completely basically by using a secondary burn, raising temps high enough to do a complete burn. hence no creosote with no cat converter. 

JUCA does the exact same thing with an open burn design. insert is designed to accelerate upward draft by careful design of burn chamber angles. result is similar to forced air draft systems used by almost all new commercial gas fired furnaces and some epa rated wood furnaces. 

it sure sound like your insert had the best of both designs 20 years back. secondary burn and cat. 

proof of how clean your insert is burning without a cat is how much smoke your chimney is putting out after reaching temps. and of course how much creosote is removed upon cleaning chimney. 

JUCA puts out almost no smoke after reaching operating temps. almost no creosote was removed during cleaning of chimney after two seasons of using insert as 100% heat source.



Wood Doctor said:


> This model does have a cat converter, but I only use it about half the time. They are also getting hard to find. Instead, I have a 3/16" cast iron plate in the cat flue chamber that has a bunch of 3/8" holes in it, equally spaced.
> 
> That plate gets red hot also and will take the flue gases to 1300 F. I notice very little reduction in burn time when using the plate (and it's a lot easier to clean). I believe Federal suplied this as a damper choke for those wanting to burn coal rather than wood. With the draft I have from my tall chimney, I sometimes think I'm burning coal. Heheheh.
> 
> ...


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## Wood Doctor (Jan 30, 2008)

046 said:


> so you are running stove without a cat due to no parts? newer designs do away with cat completely basically by using a secondary burn, raising temps high enough to do a complete burn. hence no creosote with no cat converter.
> 
> JUCA does the exact same thing with an open burn design. insert is designed to accelerate upward draft by careful design of burn chamber angles. result is similar to forced air draft systems used by almost all new commercial gas fired furnaces and some epa rated wood furnaces.
> 
> ...



Actually, I have found that the hot cast iron, perforated plate works about as well as a cat combustor. After that "magic" 1000 F is reached or more, there is practically no smoke visible from the chimney.

I generally only have the chimney swept about every three to five years. The draft has never indicated a required sweep because it is always strong. I sweep it routinely and next year it's due. I also have trouble finding chimney sweeps that can reach the top with enough extensions. Most refuse to climb to the top and work top down. They need about a 35' reach.

The 100% heat source is facinating. When I bought this invention in 1987, I don't think JUCA or Quad were around. Jotul and Vermont Castings were, but neither had the features of the Federal Airtights.


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