# A little input from the pro loggers please?



## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

Hey guys,

I just want to make certain that my understanding of boxcuts and their purpose jives with yours.

My first exposure to this technique was watching a veteran pro screw one up big time and crush a nearby high value oak into the ground, at which point I said screw boxcut felling cuts period.

But then I was working in Lake Arrowhead and responsible for getting a giant coulter pine covered in ivy leaning over a 3 story mansion on the lake's shoreline safely landed on the beach with a big tracked bobcat.

I put two big bull lines in the two outer upper leaders ran them to the bobcat then began clearing the ivy from the base only to discover the damn thing was hollow to the point that I could actually walk inside the tree and raise my elbows. Hmmmmm.......

As a independent sub working for a 3rd generation logger, I decided to give the old boy a ring and get his input on the situation since it was his company's reputation and mine on the two bull lines.

He said no problem jomoco, just use a boxcut with bout 4 or 5 inches of good healthy hinge on each side of that hollow old dog, gun it for the beach and let the bobcat do the rest.

With memories of my first observation of a felling boxcut foremost in my mind I pussed out and politely asked him to come show me how and why a boxcut was appropriate for this 5 ft dbh monster with bout 8 inches of good wood on each side, the walk through cavity faced the mansion side.

The face of his boxcut was bout 8 vertical inches tall bout a 3rd of the way into the hollow tree made with his 88 with a 3 ft bar. His felling cut was exactly opposite the top of the 8 inch boxcut's vertical face, he went to within bout 5 inches of hinge on each side, yanked his saw out, grinned at me across from him watching intently, yelled run for your life jomoco! while signaling the bobcat to go.

He had told me that an 8 inch apex allowed the hinge to bend over 90 degrees and hold onto the stump much more tenaciously until the tree actually hits the ground, and that's exactly what it did that day before eventually tearing off the huge stump and sliding down hill towards the beach.

So tell me guys, did matt know the true proper utililization of the mysterious boxcut felling technique?

Thanks.

jomoco


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## forestryworks (Sep 28, 2008)

by boxcut do you mean block out style? as in humboldt block out face?


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## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> by boxcut do you mean block out style? as in humboldt block out face?



His pie cut had no sharp apex. If one were to reassemble or glue his pie cut back together it would be rectangular rather than triangular, his felling cut was at the same level as the top of the 8 inch tall face of his rectangular pie.

Thanks,

jomoco


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## RandyMac (Sep 28, 2008)

Was it something like this?






Used mostly on big timber, it allows controll of how a tree falls, not just where.

RandyMac


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> So tell me guys, did matt know the true proper utililization of the mysterious boxcut felling technique?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> jomoco



If the tree went where he intended it to go who are you to question his technique?

You deferred to his superior experience and judgement, no?

The only real question here is whether you learned anything from this. Any thing at all.


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## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

The innermost deepest point of the pie had an 8 inch tall vertical face, his finish or felling cut was perfectly horizontal aimed directly at the top of the 8 inch face.

He told me the purpose of the 8 inch tall vertical face was to allow much more bend in the holding wood before it breaks off the stump. Ideally it's supposed to hold the hinge until the tree hits the ground before breaking.

It worked flawlessly for matt that day, and I was very impressed with it.

Thanks,

jomoco


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## oldirty (Sep 28, 2008)

Gologit said:


> If the tree went where he intended it to go who are you to question his technique?
> 
> You deferred to his superior experience and judgement, no?
> 
> The only real question here is whether you learned anything from this. Any thing at all.





gologit.... i think he was asking on my behalf. i think i called a certain cut for crane work a "box cut" and jomoco is out looking for the right answer.


but now i know i was calling it box cut but meant something completely different if it is used as a felling cut.



lol


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## jomoco (Sep 28, 2008)

Gologit said:


> If the tree went where he intended it to go who are you to question his technique?
> 
> You deferred to his superior experience and judgement, no?
> 
> The only real question here is whether you learned anything from this. Any thing at all.



You're right gologit, I've certainly learned to stay the hell out of the logging forum to learn a dang thing bout boxcuts and why they're used by loggers!

Thanks bud.

jomoco


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2008)

jomoco said:


> You're right gologit, I've certainly learned to stay the hell out of the logging forum to learn a dang thing bout boxcuts and why they're used by loggers!
> 
> Thanks bud.
> 
> jomoco



You're welcome. 'Bye.


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 29, 2008)

What is a "box cut"?

What is a "pie cut"?


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## Zackman1801 (Sep 29, 2008)

from what ive seen described here a box cut would come of of the tree with the notch looking like a square or rectangle, and a pie cut would have the notch looking like a piece of pie or a triangle.


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## redprospector (Sep 29, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> from what ive seen described here a box cut would come of of the tree with the notch looking like a square or rectangle, and a pie cut would have the notch looking like a piece of pie or a triangle.



And a humbolt could be called an upside down pie cut. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Sep 29, 2008)

jomoco said:


> You're right gologit, I've certainly learned to stay the hell out of the logging forum to learn a dang thing bout boxcuts and why they're used by loggers!
> 
> Thanks bud.
> 
> jomoco



Hahaha. Just like I learned to stay out of the political forum to learn anything about politics.
Take a vacation JOJO, it'll do you a world of good. I highly recomend Oahu. 

Andy


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## ShoerFast (Sep 29, 2008)

Gologit said:


> If the tree went where he intended it to go who are you to question his technique?
> 
> You deferred to his superior experience and judgement, no?
> 
> The only real question here is whether you learned anything from this. Any thing at all.




Knowing that you posted this just to make me spew coffee all over the place, just happened to be at a time I could rep you again!  

You crack me up!


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## ShoerFast (Sep 29, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha. Just like I learned to stay out of the political forum to learn anything about politics.
> Take a vacation JOJO, it'll do you a world of good. I highly recomend Oahu.
> 
> Andy



Your here to tell me that them smart pills he been taking are just rabbit-turds after all?


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 29, 2008)

So how do you make the vertical cut on the face, a plunge cut?


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## forestryworks (Sep 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> So how do you make the vertical cut on the face, a plunge cut?



or break it out with an axe


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## jomoco (Sep 29, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> So how do you make the vertical cut on the face, a plunge cut?



You nailed it!

Vertical plunge cut, with an 88 running a 3 foot bar!

Matt is a 3rd generation logger, so I pretty much kept my mouth shut and watched him like a hawk.

These loggers do some trippy stuff, like running their chains so friggin loose it made me cringe! Just watchin matt matt sharpen that 88 was a trip.

Almost every pro logger apparently runs square ground 404 skip chisel chain that they can sharpen when away from their silvey flat chisel sharpeners by using three sided triangular hand files. Watchin matt sharpen his loose chained 88 was a treat. He'd sit right on the ground under the target tree grab one of the three plastic wedges in his pouch, pull the loose chain out from the bar and stuff that wedge between the bar and chain, and give each cutter exactly three swipes with his triangular file as he pulled the wedge in and out working the chain around. But the best part was his ambidexterous use of both hands to sharpen both left and right cutters alternately in one complete rotation of the chain on the bar.

The fluidity of his chain sharpening in the field really impressed me along with his boxcut felling of big hollow coulter pines. The man certainly seemed to know his stuff.

And yes Forestry he popped the pie out with an axe.

jomoco


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## Jacob J. (Sep 29, 2008)

redprospector said:


> And a humbolt could be called an upside down pie cut.



A "pie" cut is when you decide how big a piece you want after a big dinner. I call the Humboldt cut "A smilin Doug Fir".


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm gonna try that vertical plunge box number next time I'm falling, sounds like it could have some nice control.


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## forestryworks (Sep 29, 2008)

a vertical bore cut is gonna give you about a 3" vertical gap in the block out face... plenty big for the eastern trees, maybe even overkill

and if you do block out the face... put a snipe in it
otherwise you'll be running for your life


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## oldirty (Sep 29, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> and if you do block out the face... put a snipe in it
> otherwise you'll be running for your life



i was thinking the same thing. control to keep the wood on the stump but no idea where its going type of deal?


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## RandyMac (Sep 29, 2008)

The block cut is mainly used on the larger trees, often old growth Redwoods. It about controlling how the tree falls, not just where it falls.
Take this Sugar Pine for example, it was about two feet from the chimney, with a few other things in the way further up the hill. I needed it to fall with the full length contacting the ground at the same time. I wanted it to fall easy, evenly, no twisting.










The object was to keep the tree on the stump, until it was horizontal to the ground, then have it be pushed forward, away from the house. Controll of the butt was critical, having it roll or bounce could have been messy.

Kinda hard to tell from this old photo, the holding wood doesn't show well, there was 3" on the left, tapering up to 6" toward the chimney side. Sugar Pines are moderately brittle, the hinge wood usually just snaps or tears. Anyway, it hit the snipe, moved forward, and hit like a paper sack full of wet sand.


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## forestryworks (Sep 29, 2008)

oldirty said:


> i was thinking the same thing. control to keep the wood on the stump but no idea where its going type of deal?



right, the snipe gives the butt log direction all the way to the ground


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## redprospector (Sep 29, 2008)

ShoerFast said:


> Your here to tell me that them smart pills he been taking are just rabbit-turds after all?



If it looks like a rabbit turd, and smells like a rabbit turd.....................Well, it's probably a rabbit turd.

Andy


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## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2008)

This is just a kirf dutch. Precision falling with minimal splitability, AND butt pounding ground action,(so you dont loose any wood..

Your 3rd gen buddie probably did it to ensure as good as possible the butt from jumpin off the stump during the leveling. 



A kirf dutch without a snipe is not really dangerous but may allow the tube to acomplish some nonsence sutch as severing one side of the hinge and ... Tree did not go where it was supposed to go..

A kirf dutch or box cut is great for keeping fibers glued. Next time you guys get a small heay leaner, make a first face cut about 1 inch and back cut leaving healthy hinge and see what happens..

Fall, fall, fall, commit to the face(snipe) and POP, doup,(butts on the deck) and POOFFF... She's LAID!!




Just my 2 scence.


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## Burvol (Oct 1, 2008)

.


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## Zodiac45 (Oct 2, 2008)

RandyMac said:


> Was it something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1 Nice Pix Randy and right on the money.


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## forestryworks (Oct 2, 2008)

056 kid said:


> This is just a kirf dutch. Precision falling with minimal splitability, AND butt pounding ground action,(so you dont loose any wood..
> 
> Your 3rd gen buddie probably did it to ensure as good as possible the butt from jumpin off the stump during the leveling.
> 
> ...



a kerf dutchman is not the same as the block out face

the block out face has a high success rate, dutchman's don't


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## Bushler (Oct 3, 2008)

The best way to have a high sucess rate cutting a dutchman, is to know how. And that takes knowing your timber species, and knowing the physical limits on amt. of lean to compensate for, soundness of tree, wind, limb lean, etc.

I'd rather cut a dutchman than pound wedges to keep my trees in lead. But, conversly, I'd rather pound wedges than lose a tree over the stump and brush up my strip.

Experience comes from practice.


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## forestryworks (Oct 3, 2008)

Bushler said:


> The best way to have a high sucess rate cutting a dutchman, is to know how. And that takes knowing your timber species, and knowing the physical limits on amt. of lean to compensate for, soundness of tree, wind, limb lean, etc.
> 
> *I'd rather cut a dutchman than pound wedges to keep my trees in lead. But, conversly, I'd rather pound wedges than lose a tree over the stump and brush up my strip.*
> 
> Experience comes from practice.



point taken


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## Metals406 (Oct 3, 2008)

I'd like to know more details about this "snipe", and where it goes on the face of the boxcut. When I was logging, an old feller showed me what he called a "walking-dutchman" to control the direction of fall... Actually, he used it to swing a Doug Fir that was top facing down hill, and he whipped that sucker side hill (slightly uphill). I was very impressed.

We always called the "snipe", the piece cut off the butt log on the landing, to get it ready to load on the truck. I have a feeling you guys are calling a snipe something different?


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## forestryworks (Oct 3, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> I'd like to know more details about this "snipe", and where it goes on the face of the boxcut. When I was logging, an old feller showed me what he called a "walking-dutchman" to control the direction of fall... Actually, he used it to swing a Doug Fir that was top facing down hill, and he whipped that sucker side hill (slightly uphill). I was very impressed.
> 
> We always called the "snipe", the piece cut off the butt log on the landing, to get it ready to load on the truck. I have a feeling you guys are calling a snipe something different?



if you don't already have it, buy this book High Climbers and Timber Fallers

it tells you everything you need to know about a snipe and more

i'll see if i can find a picture for a quick reference


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

RandyMac said:


> Was it something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats looks like whats called a standard cut,and is it hung up?


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> from what ive seen described here a box cut would come of of the tree with the notch looking like a square or rectangle, and a pie cut would have the notch looking like a piece of pie or a triangle.



Like the cut you would use to place a timber jack?


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

redprospector said:


> And a humbolt could be called an upside down pie cut.
> 
> Andy



priceless


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> So how do you make the vertical cut on the face, a plunge cut?



standerd


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

jomoco said:


> You nailed it!
> 
> Vertical plunge cut, with an 88 running a 3 foot bar!
> 
> ...



that's right that's how we do it in the pacific north west ,and if he throws that chain he'll roll right back over the tip and back on the bar.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I'm gonna try that vertical plunge box number next time I'm falling, sounds like it could have some nice control.



Are you serious,you never heard of a standard cut


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> a vertical bore cut is gonna give you about a 3" vertical gap in the block out face... plenty big for the eastern trees, maybe even overkill
> 
> and if you do block out the face... put a snipe in it
> otherwise you'll be running for your life



are you talking about boreing into heavy leaners to avoid baberchair ?


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

RandyMac said:


> The block cut is mainly used on the larger trees, often old growth Redwoods. It about controlling how the tree falls, not just where it falls.
> Take this Sugar Pine for example, it was about two feet from the chimney, with a few other things in the way further up the hill. I needed it to fall with the full length contacting the ground at the same time. I wanted it to fall easy, evenly, no twisting.
> 
> 
> ...


Thats definitly not a standard cut.it is what it is a humbolt with a block cut out above it.It definitly took never to hang in their with that one.I hope you put a wedge in their.


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