# Opinions on thin climbing lines.



## MrRecurve (Sep 9, 2005)

Hey gang, I am fairly new to climbing although I have been working on the ground for 2 years. I am interested in buying a new climbing line to replace my old samson 16 strand blue streak, and I like the idea of using a 24 strand line like samson velocity or the yale equivalent (blaze?) 

I climb in a glide and use a vt and 2 biners. Can anyone offer me some sound advice on this subject? 

Thanks for your time, Mr.


----------



## BostonBull (Sep 9, 2005)

Stay away from Velocity as a climbing line. It has a very tacky coating on it which makes it great as an acess line i.e. footlocking, but once your tied in with some sort of friction hitch your bound to have it bind up on you. The blaze is a great rope as is the fly.


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Sep 9, 2005)

Easiest way to screw up your hands is to force them to grip something small for long periods of time. For me that means no touching myself and using decent sized climbing lines. I spent a couple weeks climbing on a rock climbing line that was 9.5mm and I was really feeling it by the end. (yeah I know it was stupid to climb on thin lines) but keep it in mind, you can only work as long as your hands last.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 9, 2005)

When I when to using thinner lines, I knew I wouldn't go back to 1/2". The Blaze is the best I've used so far. Velocity, Fly, and a few mountaineering ropes, were the others I tried.
Those that don't like it, I guess, have a different climbing style, perhaps they do long pulls, dragging their weight up by pulling on just one leg of their rope, I don't know. 
It is harder to hold a thin rope, but your grip will improve as you use it a few weeks. 
My climbing mostly involves climbing to the top and working my way down. Most of our trees are much less than 100 feet, so there are few times I pull my self up a single strand of rope, and if I do, it's a short pull.
Also a well tied friction hitch and cambium saver reduces the pulling the tail.


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2005)

Blaze is my favorite for DdRT climbing. Everything about the rope is top rate. Fly is second choice. Never cared for the sticky coating on Velocity.

There seems to be a set of tools that fit climbers in a certain group. These tools make the job easier for this group. The climbers who spend their time out at the ends of the limbs climbing the tree rather than in the center climbing the rope seem to favor leg strap saddles and smaller diameter ropes. This is a bit of a generalization but not too broad. 

When a climber makes the shift to smaller ropes the best accessory to get are a pair of sticky gloves. Use the friction of the gloves to take the place of muscle power. Several climbers who started to get tennis elbow have said that they recovered when they used Smurf gloves.

Tim Walsh is going to be doing his Ph. D thesis on the effect of small diameter ropes on grip strength. I think that we all know the results of the test. What Tim will be able to deliver are quantifiable results. 

Besides grip strength, consider how heavy the rope is. Working the outer canopy means tailing your rope over and around limbs. That means pulling rope up after you. Reducing that weight is important. People rant about climbers who carry a couple of extra slings with them but never consider the weight of their rope. There are many weight saving considerations these days.

If you want to reduce rope volume and weight by about 30%, get Blaze. If you like to haul extra weight around, stay with half inch.


----------



## Tree Machine (Sep 9, 2005)

I kinda liked the sticky coating on Velocity, but it wears off, so it's not really fair to judge the rope solely on that characteristic.

It truly depends on your climbing style. I like my blaze OK. I've liked all the 11 mms and like the less stretchy ones better (Sampson Velocity and especially Petzl's Vector) weight being the main factor as I'm one of thse excessive sling carriers, but there's the fact that it opens you up to other worlds besides our traditional friction hitches. On 11 mm you can use all the aerial devices from other disciplines like search and rescue, caving and rock climbing. It's nice to have options besides a friction hitch and DbRT, that is if other methods interest you.


----------



## clearance (Sep 9, 2005)

I only rappel on rope but is the smaller line up to 6000lbs. breaking strength new? Here we have to use rope that is at least 6000lbs rated. I would use smaller line because I am constantly climbing over 100ft. and it gets heavy, also heavy to pack through the bush. Someone please post manufacturers specs. on the skinny rope. Thanks Jim.


----------



## kf_tree (Sep 9, 2005)

clearance said:


> I only rappel on rope but is the smaller line up to 6000lbs. breaking strength new? Here we have to use rope that is at least 6000lbs rated. I would use smaller line because I am constantly climbing over 100ft. and it gets heavy, also heavy to pack through the bush. Someone please post manufacturers specs. on the skinny rope. Thanks Jim.




i'm surprised you don't just use a parachute.


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Sep 9, 2005)

I just got into using the Blaze this summer and the weight difference is a very welcome change. The diameter difference is very noticeable. Once the rope breaks in it is easier to climb on!


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2005)

Clearance,

Where does the 6k# spec come from? Is that C-OSHA or company regs?


----------



## clearance (Sep 9, 2005)

Tom the 6k is a British Columbia workers comp. reg. they are the same as OSHA down there.


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 9, 2005)

That is SO weird! I don't know of any other rope access industry that requires such high strength ropes. 

This is especially weird since arbos climb on a DdRT system where we are actually supported by two ropes, well, sort of, you know what I mean...The rest of the rope access works on a single rope with strength ratings of 5k#. The only higher ratings are for rope rescue where there is the real possibility of taking on two-person loads. Then, the ratings are up. 

In all of the time that I've spent on various rope access forums I have yet to hear of about a rope failure that wasn't directly related to poor rigging. Cases where a rope was allowed to move over a rough edge or something like that. It seems easier for regulators to raise the numbers and think that the workplace is safer. Better to require more body armor to protect from chainsaw cuts. That is a real injury case. 

I wonder how many injuries might have been reduced or eliminated if chin straps on helmets were mandatory. It seems that would go further in reducing injuries than having stronger ropes. 

I'll step off my Rant Box for a while


----------



## clearance (Sep 9, 2005)

Tom, the deal here is 6k for ropes and 5k for connecting equipment (biners, rope snaps). Figure 8 descenders are verboten. As far as chinstraps......regulations here state that chinstraps are to worn in any industry when a man is 10ft. or more off the ground or his hardhat could be blown off cause of the wind. Very few climb with chinstraps and only when they are forced to do so. All the guys I have worked with absolutely hate this idea and the guy who thought it up. Thankfully it isn't really enforced with any heart. Some people have chinstraps that stay on the brim of their hat. I lost the one my boss gave me in case a workers comp. rep. showed up. Body armour to protect from cuts we can see coming as people with jobs that they have created from thin air come up with more regs. to somehow justify thier pay. How about wearing pants/chaps on the ground and just jeans in the tree? Body armor would lull people into a false sense of security, kind of like low kick back chain. What we need is no more regulation and more practical training for people. Kind of like the guy walking the tightrope with no net, you can bet your left nut he is alert and focused, so it should be when you are up in a tree with a saw.


----------



## darkstar (Sep 10, 2005)

i love my 10.5 mill sterling .... i tried out practially every tree climbing rope out there and my shed is full of hanks the help loves umm but im back to my good old rockclimbing lines...light dynamic and very fast .... dark


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 10, 2005)

clearance said:


> Tom, the deal here is 6k for ropes and 5k for connecting equipment (biners, rope snaps). Figure 8 descenders are verboten. As far as chinstraps......regulations here state that chinstraps are to worn in any industry when a man is 10ft. or more off the ground or his hardhat could be blown off cause of the wind. Very few climb with chinstraps and only when they are forced to do so. All the guys I have worked with absolutely hate this idea and the guy who thought it up. Thankfully it isn't really enforced with any heart. Some people have chinstraps that stay on the brim of their hat. I lost the one my boss gave me in case a workers comp. rep. showed up. Body armour to protect from cuts we can see coming as people with jobs that they have created from thin air come up with more regs. to somehow justify thier pay. How about wearing pants/chaps on the ground and just jeans in the tree? Body armor would lull people into a false sense of security, kind of like low kick back chain. What we need is no more regulation and more practical training for people. Kind of like the guy walking the tightrope with no net, you can bet your left nut he is alert and focused, so it should be when you are up in a tree with a saw.



A hardhat without a chin strap is useless for a climber. Although my experience is with the Petzel rock climbing helmets, not those big dorky hardhats they sell at the hardware store for $12.
How do you keep a hat on without a chin strap?


----------



## clearance (Sep 10, 2005)

Mike-I and every one I know here uses those 'big dorky' hardhats, same as all the fallers and buckers. The orange ones that are made by and say Stihl or Husky on them. The earmuffs and wire mesh facescreen are one unit and snap into the hat. You can raise the muffs and the facescreen or lower them independently. When the earmuffs are down the hat stays on real good. We wear them because they are approved by the workers comp. and they work, they cost about $60 Cdn.. Rock climbing helmets are for rockclimbers, unless they are workers comp. approved you couldn't use them here.


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 10, 2005)

How come search and rescue, etc. wear helmets instead of hardhats in Canada then? Do they have a different set of rules? 

At a competition a guy knew that if he dropped his helmet he would be DQ's. He fixed that by running two loops of electrical tape under his chin and over his hardhat. He left it on the whole day. I asked him if he was going to use a piece of shoelace or throwline on Monday for work. He gave me an odd look and said "No...why???"


----------



## MrRecurve (Sep 10, 2005)

Thanks for all the replies guys, very helpful. How does the vt go on thin lines? Still grip properly?

Re the helmet/chinstrap issue, here in australia, we also do not have to use straps on our helmets, either in the tree or on the ground. I use a pacific kevlar helmet, one of the new types with the spine vent on top, I dont see the point in climbing with a helmet that can fall off.

Im going to give the fly a go 1st, I like the look of it, is it a samson or a yale rope?


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 10, 2005)

You'll probably change the way you tie your friction hitch when you go to a smaller diameter line. The friction is different so you might add a wrap.

The eye splice on the Fly, from New England Ropes, is a bit bulky. That's one of the reasons that I like Blaze. It's a more "normal" splice. Fly will pick a bit more because the outer fabric is a bit softer lay than Blaze. 

You'll like Fly but I think that you would love Blaze  Stay away from sticky Velocity.


----------



## darkstar (Sep 10, 2005)

yeah tie your head into a chin strap helment ..... then take a fall ...limbs grab the helment and boof ....... [[[[ broke neck simple]]]] ..... never wear a chin strap ..the helment will take off your head ......if you fall and the helment hits anything static ...... id rather my helment come off than my head ... dark


----------



## treeseer (Sep 10, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Stay away from sticky Velocity.


Tom I like my velocity (still sticky despite two washings) on the rare occasions I tie a Vt, which it holds just fine (maybe I'm tying the knot "wrong"?). It is way too sticky for the tlh  which I still use a majority of the time.

I like 10 mm mountaineering ropes for handling, lightness, and knot-holding. Their intolerance of abrasion is a drawback tho. TD it sounds like Dark and I are in a world of trouble; why don't you come east and larn us a thing or three? We are obviously in need....

Dark I don't buy the strapless-is-safer theory; sounds like the seatbelts-kill-cuz you-can't get out of trouble theory.  If you are fearing that your strap will get caught and tear your head off you are definitely thinking too much.

I think strapless works quite nicely on girls' summer dresses :angel: , but never on brain buckets.


----------



## clearance (Sep 10, 2005)

Beauty Dark, I just hate stuff around my neck/throat, like turtleneck sweaters, ties, gold chains. I don't think a chinstrap would rip your head right off but it wouldn't be nice and I will never find out.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 10, 2005)

A guy I worked with this summer was constantly losing his hard hat, doing ground work. He was looking at my helmet and asking about how much it cost. I suggested he put a velcro chin strap on his hat, and the next day he had a home made chin strap. It really worked great. He could tighten it up for the rough work and remove it completely for the raking.
I guess if you are paranoid about strangulation, you could put a coating of contact cement on both your forehead and helmet headband.


----------



## clearance (Sep 11, 2005)

Lost his hard as a groundsman repeatedly...hmmmm...next groundsman please.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 11, 2005)

clearance said:


> Lost his hard as a groundsman repeatedly...hmmmm...next groundsman please.




Exactly how tight is your headband????  
Really. You have the face screen, ear muffs, big dorky plastic hat, and you try to bust a$$ to do task and your hat doesn't come off???
Maybe it has to do with head shape. DO you have a huge bulbous protrusion on the top of your head?


----------



## clearance (Sep 11, 2005)

You guys with your pretty boy rockclimbing hats just don't get it do ya? Check out the Stihl U.S. website and look up protective apparel, helmet systems. That is what I wear except it is Husky, same thing. Do you see a chinstrap, no logger would wear a chinstrap to hang a block, no treeguy here would wear one unless he was forced to. They do not "fall" off, guys run over logs, climb trees whatever, and they stay on. What are those rock hats like in the driving rain anyways?


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Sep 11, 2005)

http://www.stihlusa.com/apparel/protect_helmet.html 

With the muffs and face shield up, you can honestly say the hat isn't inclined to fall off?
If you ever climbed with a rock climbing helmet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2005)

Clearance,

Why do you always get so backed up every time someone suggests an accepted practice that you don't care for? Let go of the name calling would ya?

Would I be a pretty boy if I had my Pacific hardhat? It's made from Kevlar and has a chin strap but looks like your hardhat. the best thing is that it gives me much more protection though. 

The buckles on the chin straps are made to break away at a certain load. There is some accepted specification for that too. This is an industrial rating not just a sport rating. 

Go back a generation and listen to the chatter...

All of the arguements about better head protection would be heard against wearing ANY protection. Now we have head gear that is more likely to keep the grey matter inside the cranium, why not use it?

ROPES...

Ever since Fly came out I've paid attention to how the smaller diameter lines have been accepted and used. A very general observation in that time is that the sticky Velocity is a favorite of some people but there are more that don't like it. Most arbos have grown used to ropes that are a bit slick right off the spool and then they get a bit tacky from fuzz and dirt. At that time, the handling characteristics flat line. The chatter that I hear about the sticky coating is that it is different. Someone posted that it gets real gummy when it gets wet. Yuch...

Samson is making a rope with the same construction but no coating. So far, I haven't heard or read any feedback.


----------



## clearance (Sep 11, 2005)

Mike c'mon. When I am working the muffs are on, the screen is down. If I have to talk to a customer or whiner (thankfully I am in the bush now) I put the screen up and the muffs off, but the hat isn't going to fall of just talking to someone. When I am not working I take my hardhat off. Why can't you believe me, I only wear a belt if I am wearing my cowboy boots, its there for the look of the buckle on it, not to hold up my pants. And Treeco, you are supposed to wear hardhat when working at all times. I was chipping a big branch into an old v-8 chuck & duck, the truck was parked downhill. I pushed it I walked towards and beside the chipper. Part of the branch hit me in the side of the head on the earmuffs that were down of course. It rattled me pretty good and I got a black eye even though it hit nowhere near my eye. And further more Mike, my huge, bulbous protusion is somewhere lower but this is a family show, and its for women only.
h


----------



## treeseer (Sep 11, 2005)

clearance said:


> (thankfully I am in the bush now) h


An arborist who reaches out to the side, sometimes upside down, to make cuts, absolutely needs a chin strap. A tree cutter who uses spikes does not lean out or down, so a chinstrap is less critical.


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Sep 11, 2005)

I climbed in dorky loggers hardhats with no chin strap for several years, and they suck. We didn't have much problems with hardhats coming off during climbs, but I always looked at it as a blessing when it "slipped" off and I watched it fall to the ground. "Headache." They're hot and cumbersome.

I finally spent the money on a Petzl and I love it. I can hardly tell its there. I never climb without it now.


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Sep 11, 2005)

But back to the point....

I use 1/2" rope and don't have any complaints about it. I appreciate having the diameter to grip because it seems like it would reduce hand stress. I've never touched a piece of smaller line, so my theory isn't based on much. Do you climbers who use 11mm lines wear grip enhancing gloves? I'll wear sticky gloves in the winter and can tell that its MUCH easier on the hands.

Regarding hitches. I still use a distel, but really want to try the VT.


----------



## darkstar (Sep 11, 2005)

this is entertaining ....love it ... im ok with a break away chin strap maybe give it a try .... i also love the way my gri gri quickly slides through a new 10 mill or 10 .5 slick line .....never mind trying me to try the distel again or the split tail im over it hehe dark


----------



## Tree Machine (Sep 11, 2005)

treeseer said:


> An arborist who reaches out to the side, sometimes upside down, to make cuts, absolutely needs a chin strap.


That was going to be my contribution to the side-rail topic going on here. As well, I think that one side of the chin-strap affixed, the other with a good line of velcro solves the problem of helmet fall-off, and makes the on/off a one-handed task.

Kentucky asks about grippy gloves. It's really hard to dispute the benefits which goes far beyond just the gripping of a rope. You'll note a lot of traditional-conventional, that's the way I've always done it, if it ain't broke don't fix it guys have embraced the grippys. Their complaints about wearing gloves often come from experiences with gloves other than grippys (which I would have to agree with). The stickys overcome the major complaint, which is loss of dexterity.

Darkstar has opened up to the possibility of mechanical devices and obviously has embraced SRT and the lighter, faster lines. Never hurts to expand your horizons. Good on you.

Someone mentioned rock climbing lines not standing up to abrasion very well. True, that, and they're generally more expensive than 11 mm arbo lines. I'm unsure about being able to terminate an eye with conventional splices in a rock rope. Rock climbers, for the most part, don't put their ropes through the rigors of the average treeguy. Most don't work their ropes all day long, all week long, week after week, although they'd like to, but most rock climbers don't get paid to do what they love. We do. That's why our ropes are constructed differently. They take splices. They stand up to our excessive demands. 

Before the recent advent of 11 mm lines in our industry, our choices in 11 mm were the hard, stiff static lines (zipline) favored in the caving circles, or the soft, dynamic kernmantles of the rock circles. The rope industries stepped up and created, _especially for us_, this new family of lines. Progressive climbers will embrace having the new options, traditionalists will badmouth what they have to offer without really ever putting the line through extensive climbing. If they don't like it right of the bat, it doesn't get used much and they have nothing good to say. Don't make a decision to try an 11 mm based on something like that. The price of _really knowing_ is the cost of the rope and the time you spend with it.


----------



## treeseer (Sep 11, 2005)

KentuckySawyer said:


> Do you climbers who use 11mm lines wear grip enhancing gloves?


Seldom, only when the weather is bad or the tree is scratchy or sticky or dirty. I like the knit gloves with the black dots; they retain dexterity while protecting. 

Just looked at the new Z133.1 ANSI's on this site: http://on-line-seminars.com/pb/wp_5fd28170.html?0.1388202852486422. Glad to see that they allow ladder-climbing without tie-in, and 7/16" ropes. Very common sense.


----------



## darkstar (Sep 11, 2005)

[[[nice tree machine awesome ]]] tree seer ...wow i was chatting with a line man who performed a service drop for us the other day ... and this is for a major utility ... he had recently pulled a 40 hour shift during aweful weather .... also he mentioned many many 24 hour shifts ... i said hey thats not ansi.... he just laughed and said naw it aint ..... he was psyched though as he was after 8 years doing service drops and hanging transformers ... said hed put in his time now and loved this eaiser work but come a a storm he would have to work the long shifts ....ansi ???you tell me dark


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2005)

i said hey thats not ansi....

What part of ANSI isn't being followed? I'm not familiar with any part of Z133 that talks about hours of service. Would you please let me know. Maybe there is another ANSI reg that you're referring to.

During extreme situations OSHA will ease up on the hours of service but those apply to drivers only as far as I know, not labor.


----------



## BostonBull (Sep 11, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> i said hey thats not ansi....
> 
> What part of ANSI isn't being followed? I'm not familiar with any part of Z133 that talks about hours of service. Would you please let me know. Maybe there is another ANSI reg that you're referring to.
> 
> During extreme situations OSHA will ease up on the hours of service but those apply to drivers only as far as I know, not labor.




Thats right and most utilities have federal pardons that when the utility declares an emergency the hours of service for drivers goes right out the window. I was on the safety and health committee for Local 369 here in Boston for three years and this was something we fought for when the new driving hours came out. We got the pardon AND our overtime storm hours back.


----------



## darkstar (Sep 11, 2005)

oh ok i read it wrong im not that trained with ansi YET i figure 40 hours awake straight shift is in direct oppisition of their rule stating ' no work in adverse conditions..... anyhow 40 hours no sleep is not right ... for a guy working out of a bucket truck with heavy equipment .... what im hearing is ansi rules [[[everyday ]]]but if the ???? hits the fan ... no rules ....


----------



## darkstar (Sep 11, 2005)

Storm Work and Emergency Conditions

Line clearance shall not be performed during adverse weather conditions. Line-clearance arborists working after a storm shall be trained in the special hazards associated with this type of work. Electrical system owners/operators shall be notified of work commencing. this is what i read so far dark ?


----------



## darkstar (Sep 11, 2005)

well thin ropes work wonders IMO [[light weight ]] but yes they dont hold up to abuse allthough i can tell you many of us rock climbers put in a many an hour even though no pay ...... rope work is awesome and we all share our on opinions thanx ............. still i wonder about ansi ... is it a rule or not .... no way a line man can stay up 40 and still work safely


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Sep 11, 2005)

There are some vague sections in the Z that address work conditions and practices. Nothing that says specific times though. 

I would hate to have to defend an injury/death case if the worker had been awake for extended periods.


----------



## Tree Machine (Sep 12, 2005)

My favorite thin lines, in the following order of absoolutely freakin great, the bomb, fairly awesome, good and good with limitations:

Sampson 7/16" Stable Braid
Petzl Vector 11 lifeline
Sampson Velocity 11 mm 
Blaze
Fly

I know you're first question is gonna be "What is the limitation with the Fly?" Bouncy, slightly bigger than 11 mm, ovalizes and milks. If I were using it for rock climbing I'd give it a much higher rating, but this is not rock climbing. Don't get me wrong, I really like the fly. I do. The limitations are just characteristics that some will find appealing, and others will not (except for the milking). It's all just personal preference. We should all make our own decisions after trying them on our own. I would never judge another climber because he likes a rope that doesn't appeal to me. Different climbers climb differently, different climber weights, different friction hitches and/or devices, different styles and techniques. Different ropes for different dogs.


----------



## sharpstikman (Sep 13, 2005)

hellow yall, hope everyone is well! tm, how does the fly handle with mechanical devices ,


----------



## Tree Machine (Sep 13, 2005)

Excellent, but I found that the Fly is a little bigger (slightly) than 11 mm and milks (which is why it hit the bottom of the list) I like a firmer rope with devices, where with hitches it doesn't matter as much. The fly does quite well through devices, though.

All the ones I list above handle mechanical devices well. That's because they _fit_ all the popular mechanical devices, unlike the 13 mm (1/2") lines that are, for the most part, excluded. Actually, I shouldn't say that because there are many devices that will handle 13 mm. It's just that 11 mm lines will accomodate them all, opening up to us new worlds and new schools of technique.

If you use devices, you can still revert back to using hitches, or develop hybrid technique, moving from SRT to DbRT to DdRT, interchangably during the same climb. You will gain a new, limitless appreciation for climbing and you'll be able to do things you couldn't before. It is all up to you the direction you choose.


----------



## Redbull (Oct 16, 2005)

Will a 1/2" split tail work on a 11mm line like Blaze, or will I need to cut a section of the Blaze to use as my split tail?


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 16, 2005)

I understand that the diameter of your split-tail needs to be less than the diameter of the rope for you to get proper gription. It's all about radiuses.

I understand the physics of it, but I don't really deserve to answer because I can't say I use a split tails, or DdRT. Tress cords sometimes, but rarely. PETZL recommends friction methods of 8 mm cord on 11 mm rope. I think 9 or even 10 mm would work, depending on the hitch you use.

Tenex is a good cord for split-tails or tress. There's a very good review of a high-temperature eye-eye tress cord on ********, I would check that out.


----------



## Stumper (Oct 16, 2005)

Redbull, Now is the time to switch to a tress cord. ALL of the advantages of a split tail pluss the option to use better hitches and have more security.... and they cost less if yu make tour own.


----------



## Redbull (Oct 16, 2005)

Well, I use a Blake right now. SafetyBlueHivee line with SafetyBlueHivee split tail. I would like to use a tress cord, but my rope is coming tommorrow, and need to use it Tuesday. Not sure where, locally, to pick up some cordage.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 16, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I ordered 150' of Blaze from Okie today. Can't wait to give it a try. I've got enough NE Hi Vee to last me for several years but all of the positive comments about the blaze convinced me to give it a try.
> 
> Dan


Did you give 'er a try yet?


----------



## rahtreelimbs (Oct 16, 2005)

Blaze is the Sheetz!!!

Nice rope, just a little bit of a learning curve since it is thinner.


----------



## NickfromWI (Oct 17, 2005)

KentuckySawyer said:


> But back to the point....
> 
> ... Do you climbers who use 11mm lines wear grip enhancing gloves? I'll wear sticky gloves in the winter and can tell that its MUCH easier on the hands.




I use an 11mm line (Yale's Blaze). I've been using it for like a year and a half now. I always climb with a super thin pair of liner gloves and Atlas smurf gloves over that. Every now and then I can't find my gloves or something like that....oh man does that stink. I just about can't even climb- my hands are just not conditioned for it.

But, with the 11mm, it weighs less and you can fit so much more rope in the same bag when it's only 11mm. I love working with it, carrying it around- and like Tom mentioned, the splice on the Blaze is the thing of beauty when compared to the Fly splice.

Redbull- if you HAVE to use it, just go old school and do a traditional, non-split tailed blakes until you get some proper hitch cord. Maybe now is the time to try the distel?

love
nick the rope splicer


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 17, 2005)

NickfromWI said:


> Redbull- if you HAVE to use it, just go old school and do a traditional, non-split tailed blakes until you get some proper hitch cord.
> love
> nick the rope splicer


...."go" old school? You make it sound like split tails and tress cords are 'new school'. 

Split tails or tress cords use rope on rope friction. This is the same application of friction control using different style cordage. Same school, though, different classes; OS traditional, OS split-tail system, OS advanced hitches. Old school has traditional and advanced areas, which makes it a good school.


----------



## Redbull (Oct 17, 2005)

Just got my Blaze, (and Big Shot) from the UPS man. I think for now I'm going to cut a short length to use as a split tail with a Blake Hitch. I'll let ya'll know how I like it. I am looking forward to using one of the more advanced hitches though.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 17, 2005)

I had a client ask me why I don't just use a fisherman's on the rope end, vs a splice. I gave him the ususal about how I dislike the bulk of a knot...

I started to think about it and have never liked not being able to flip ends of my line , or getting a little knick and toasting an entire rope.

So I started using a fishermans on my old NE red&black (cannot recall the the name right now) I had to cut the splce off of. I turns out i really like it, and if I whip a loop on both ends I could still attatch the retriver ball for the Art Rope Guide.


----------



## NickfromWI (Oct 18, 2005)

John, here's an idea that might work (I haven't tried it yet though). Whip the end of the rope, then get a nail or something red hot and pierce a hole through it for the ART retrieval ball.

I made a loop once for another rope that I pulled the strands to the side to make a little hole, then whipped the sides of the hole together. That worked quite nicely.

love
nick


----------



## Redbull (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm on a lunch break right now. Spent the morning climbing on my new Blaze. I like it a lot, very light, and the weight loss is noticable. The smaller diameter is affecting my hands though. My ugly gloves are almost shot so the grip isn't what it could be. I'm using a split tail with a Blake. Oh yeah, the Big Shot is the stuff for those of you who don't know.


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Oct 19, 2005)

Tom, just to tick you off, I just ordered 150' of Velocity.  

I really did.


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Oct 19, 2005)

Well... not to tick you off.


----------



## Ax-man (Oct 19, 2005)

NickfromWI said:


> John, here's an idea that might work (I haven't tried it yet though). Whip the end of the rope, then get a nail or something red hot and pierce a hole through it for the ART retrieval ball.
> 
> love
> nick



Thanks Nick, that is a good idea. Our lowering lines aren't spliced and I have been trying to figure a way to retrieve rigging false crotches from the ground without tying knots in the end of the ropes. I think your idea will work so we can use the same keys that I use for climbing. 

Larry


----------



## tophopper (Oct 19, 2005)

Ive been climbing on Blaze for 6-8 months now, today I got to climb on Poison Ivy and besides the color of it, I think I like it better than the blaze.


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 19, 2005)

Same rope different diameter (and color) Blaze is a fat 11 mm. Poison Ivy is 12.5 mm.


----------



## Jim1NZ (Oct 19, 2005)

How similar do you think Arbormaster and Yale 16 strand is?


----------



## tophopper (Oct 19, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> Same rope different diameter (and color) Blaze is a fat 11 mm. Poison Ivy is 12.5 mm.




No its not quite the same- the blaze has a much more subtle hand to it. 
PI is more rigid, and sherrill lists it as 11.7mm.


Ive never climbed on Arbormaster, but of all 16 strands i have, I feel Yale is the best.


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 20, 2005)

I stand corrected on the diameter. I have no place here as I've never tried Poison Ivy, but I do believe one is a bigger version of the other.

I like the Blaze. It's definitely in the top 5 of the 11 mm crowd.


----------



## BoesTreeService (Oct 20, 2005)

What is the advantage you all feel you get from the smaller lines. I love my 1/2" line, dont see a problem with it. Anyone use ascenders? Comments on those as well, if you are having problems with your hands, they are easier to grilp for sure.


----------



## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 20, 2005)

BoesTreeService said:


> What is the advantage you all feel you get from the smaller lines.



For one it's smaller and lighter. More of it fits in a rope bag and it's faster and easier to stuff. Splices and knots are smaller and pull through tight crotches easier. The lighter tail weight helps limbs walking.
Modern rock climbing devices are pretty much designed to be used on 11mm ropes, not so much 1/2".
As stated, the line is harder to hold on and pull, but depending on your climbing style, that may not be much of a factor. Most guys get to the top and work down. If you're getting to the top by pulling yourself up a rope with your hands, what size line isn't your biggest question.


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 20, 2005)

Well said, my friend. Your biggest question is why do you subject yourself to the agony of traditional DdRT when there are devices that take all the guesswork out of getting around a tree? Accurate, 100% total friction control at a fingertip's touch. Predictable. No difference if the rope is wet or dry.

Devices are out there. There are devices that have yet to be invented. And devices make it so consistent and reliable and identical every time. If friction is controlled _completely_, you can have confidence in that, and you can _focus_ on your climbing, and your climbing abilities will head to the stratosphere. 11 mm lets you into that world.


----------



## NickfromWI (Oct 20, 2005)

Jim1NZ said:


> How similar do you think Arbormaster and Yale 16 strand is?



Arbormaster vs. XTC...I'm biased but I'd go with the Yale XTC. seems to last longer to me...wears better. I like the feel of it.

Arbormaster milks a lot more, but I don't think that's a big deal. Milk it, cut it off, then forget about it.

The arbormaster is way easier to splice. I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

love
nick


----------



## luke17 (Oct 21, 2005)

hi all


----------



## luke17 (Oct 21, 2005)

i use yale ropes


----------



## KentuckySawyer (Oct 21, 2005)

I ordered a new Velocity line and a rope tarp the other day. It'll be my first 150' rope and my first foray into the small rope world. I went for the Velocity because of the tacky coating and the weight difference. I also ordered several types of sticky gloves to try out. I never wear gloves, except in the cold, so that will be a change too.

Anyone ever used the rope tarp? Seems like it'd be faster than a bag.


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 21, 2005)

KS, I think you'll find the sticky gloves most helpful.

If you're using a traditional friction hitch to ascend an 11 mm, you may hate your new Velocity. If you are using ascenders, you will love it. The tacky coating increases the resistance of the rope passing through the hitch; fine if you're coming down, but not so good on the way up. Ascenders create little to no drag, regardless of rope coating, newness of the rope or whether it is wet or dry.

I don't do rope tarps or rope bags. I prefer to keep my ropes hung, up off of horizontal surfaces. Rope tarps are especially popular with the rock group, who are meticulous in the preserving of the newness of their ropes. For treeguys, a rope is new for one day. I'm a minimalist, so a rope tarp is just one more thing.

As far as rope goes, it makes no difference to me what anyone climbs on, all that I share are my experiences and opinions.


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Oct 21, 2005)

KS,

If you don't like the tackiness of the Velocity you can always use it for tying up the dog  Makes no difference to me what anyone climbs on, all that I share are my experiences and opinions.

Anyone using ascenders should check and see what diameter rope they are supposed to be using. Many tools aren't made for use with half inch diameter rope. they do work but the manufacturer doesn't sanction larger ropes.


----------



## BoesTreeService (Oct 22, 2005)

Thanks to Mike Maas and TreeMachine. I appreciate your input. I am a decent climber but always looking for anything that will make it easier and/or safer. I use 9mm rope alot on the fire ground (Im also a fireman) Im gonna give some lighter rope a try. Also took some advice from some of the columns in here and ordered 20 pr of sticky gloves after trying out a pair. I know most tree service industry uses rope bags (as does most fire departments and rec climbers. I have been using milk crates. They are open so they allow some air to get to your ropes if they get moisture, you dont have to hold them open to load them, and they stack very nicely in your truck. Anyone see a problem with that or ever tried it? The typical milk crate can hold 100' or 3/4" bull rope, 200' or 1/2" rope, and Im guessing 300" to 400" of the 11mm rope. Its sooo easy to feed your rope into one of these crates. Thanks for all your inputs and advice..sometimes reading these columns is like attending a class!!


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 22, 2005)

I think the milk crate is a great idea. Wouldn't work for me as I have zero horizontal space left in my rig. Also, my minimalist, boil it down to the least common denominator side would ask me, 'Is this piece really needed? and how many other tasks can this piece serve?. How valuable is it for me to schlepp it around?

With groundies, I think the milk crate is a great idea. It's rare for me to let anyone handle my rope. The way I hank and secure mine, they han off a vertical face, up off the floor and away from other floor stuff, and when laid on the ground properly it deploys with the gentle pull of the throwline, perfectly, every time. 

These are my unique needs, showing that even a great idea such as yours is not necessarily universally great, but at the same time I applaud your contribution.

And welcome to class. You're late. Where have you been?


----------



## Tom Dunlap (Oct 22, 2005)

A piece of fiberboard or plywood would be a good divider for the milk crate. That way you could use up all of the space.


----------



## Tree Machine (Oct 22, 2005)

Two 11 mm's in one crate. I like it.


----------

