# MS261 VS MS261 C-M Comparison



## Mastermind

Here we go guys. This may be a long drawn out thread....so be patient please. I've got these three saws here to use for as test subjects. 



 

We have a regular MS261 that just came out of the box. We also have a new MS261 C-M The was sent here by one of our members to test on, and we have my own MS261 C-M that will remain stock throughout all this so we will have it to compare to in all tests. 

Many of you guys have watched Brad and myself go round and round in one conflict after another over the last year or so. I must admit that I could have done a much better job at keeping that from happening. I'm tired of the bickering. Brad and I have both agreed to let all that crap go. 

I've invited Brad to be a part of this thread, and look forward to his input and ideas. Brad was the guy that devised gutting the strato ports from the first 261 when it didn't seem to respond well to normal porting....so it only seems fitting that he should be a part of anything we do on this new model. 

I also would like to invite everyone to ask any questions and add any input to this thread as you see fit. This site is here for us all the share our thoughts and experiences. I only ask that any derogatory comments be checked at the door. We don't need that here.


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## Mastermind

Jon and I started by rounding up some test wood.....





And then by turning that into cants. It was a good time to test a 372XT that was having tuning issues.


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## Mastermind

The MS261 stock....

The cant is a fresh poplar 12X14.


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## Mastermind

The MS261 C-M stock....


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## Jimmy in NC

Well what did you hit with the chain and how much bar was that thing pulling? 28"?

Ohh wait...gotta keep on topic...this will be interesting to watch. I have always liked a good running 026 family saw.


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## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> Well what did you hit with the chain and how much bar was that thing pulling? 28"?
> 
> Ohh wait...gotta keep on topic...this will be interesting to watch. I have always liked a good running 026 family saw.



This is after all a Mastermoobs thread Jimmy. We can't stay too "on topic". 

That stand is a lathe stand that my friend Scooterbum gave me along with a Atlas 9" lathe. The stand has metal pieces in it to bolt the lathe down to. Broke one tooth clean off. 

The bar is a 28" bar. It runs pretty strong for an X-Torq.


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## Mastermind

My first mod.....


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## Mastermind

That's a 37.8% increase.


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## Jimmy in NC

Just curious...are these all 3/8 or .325? I'm guessing a 3/8 loop by Jon?

Making good head way there with the modifications!


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## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> Just curious...are these all 3/8 or .325? I'm guessing a 3/8 loop by Jon?
> 
> Making good head way there with the modifications!



The first two cuts were off the roll RSC .325

The third cut was one of Jon's square ground .325 chains. The saws are still totally stock up to this point. 

The reason I threw that video up was the show how much difference chain makes. Even though the first videos were done with new Stihl non-safety RSC chain, nearly a 38% improvement in cut speed was found just by swapping the chain.


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## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> The first two cuts were off the roll RSC .325
> 
> The third cut was one of Jon's square ground .325 chains. The saws are still totally stock up to this point.
> 
> The reason I threw that video up was the show how much difference chain makes. Even though the first videos were done with new Stihl non-safety RSC chain, nearly a 38% improvement in cut speed was found just by swapping the chain.



Glad you did that. Easiest modification and probably most often overlooked.


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## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> Glad you did that. Easiest modification and probably most often overlooked.



And the one that can make one of our well modded saws lose to a stock saw at GTGs.


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## procarbine2k1

Mastermind said:


> The first two cuts were off the roll RSC .325
> 
> The third cut was one of Jon's square ground .325 chains. The saws are still totally stock up to this point.
> 
> The reason I threw that video up was the show how much difference chain makes. Even though the first videos were done with new Stihl non-safety RSC chain, nearly a 38% improvement in cut speed was found just by swapping the chain.



That is nuts. Is he doing the .325 much different than 3/8? Just curious on the details, I have been wanting to try .325 square ground for a long time, and didn't know if he did something special on the setup of his grinder, or if he was using a jig or what. :msp_w00t:


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## cre10

Mastermind said:


> That's a 37.8% increase.



Wow.


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## Mastermind

procarbine2k1 said:


> That is nuts. Is he doing the .325 much different than 3/8? Just curious on the details, I have been wanting to try .325 square ground for a long time, and didn't know if he did something special on the setup of his grinder, or if he was using a jig or what. :msp_w00t:



We have a modified Simington Swing Arm the has the chain holder mount tweaked.....



cre10 said:


> Wow.



Yep. 

I wanted to throw that out there first so that we can have all our cards on the table. When I hear about gains of 8%, or 12%, etc I have to laugh knowing what I do about chain and the differences it can make.


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## mdavlee

You do some thinning and blending and you can get even better increase in cut speed. 

I'm ready for some port work videos.


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## blsnelling

Looking good Randy. I've certainly had my faults with our relationship in the last year as well. It definitely feels good to move past all that. 

All I run on my ported 50cc saws is .325, even when racing at GTGs. I've got a few chains I square ground on the Silvey I had. It works very well. 

I'm really looking forward to your findings


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Looking good Randy. I've certainly had my faults with our relationship in the last year as well. It definitely feels good to move past all that.
> 
> All I run on my ported 50cc saws is .325, even when racing at GTGs. I've got a few chains I square ground on the Silvey I had. It works very well.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to your findings



I've got muffler modded videos uploading. I didn't see any increases at all from the muffler mods I did. 

I'm wondering if the way I mod them is ineffective or what? :msp_sad:


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## blsnelling

Seriously?


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Seriously?



Yeah.....I'm confused too.


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## blsnelling

All I do is open up the factory opening under the stock deflector, add the gills on the other side, and cut a slot through the internal pipe with a carbide burr.


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## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> Yeah.....I'm confused too.



Just curious...do these mufflers have catalytic media in them?


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## blsnelling

Jimmy in NC said:


> Just curious...do these mufflers have catalytic media in them?



No.


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## MindFork

I already really like the spirit of this thread, with Brad and Randy collaborating like in the old days.


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> All I do is open up the factory opening under the stock deflector, add the gills on the other side, and cut a slot through the internal pipe with a carbide burr.



OK, I may need more opening. I'll get some pics up. This computer sucks so I'm letting my videos upload now.


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## ernurse

Mastermind said:


> The first two cuts were off the roll RSC .325
> 
> The third cut was one of Jon's square ground .325 chains. The saws are still totally stock up to this point.
> 
> The reason I threw that video up was the show how much difference chain makes. Even though the first videos were done with new Stihl non-safety RSC chain, nearly a 38% improvement in cut speed was found just by swapping the chain.



I guess that answers my question as to how much better square ground cuts.


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## Majorpayne

I wonder what the MM would do with stock chain? Harder pulling.


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## ernurse

This might be a stupid question but did the 260 become a strato saw when it became the 261 or is it just the auto tune carb model? My ms260 pro was definately not.


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## Mastermind

Majorpayne said:


> I wonder what the MM would do with stock chain? Harder pulling.



We are back with stock chain. Just the one time with square...



ernurse said:


> This might be a stupid question but did the 260 become a strato saw when it became the 261 or is it just the auto tune carb model? My ms260 pro was definately not.



The 261 is strato, the 261c is strato with M-Tronic.


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## Mastermind

The 261 with a muffler mod.


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## Mastermind

The "C" with a muffler mod.


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## Mastermind

An old 026 Jon's been playing with.


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## Mastermind

I'm gonna add the fish gills that Brad uses. 

BRB.....


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## blsnelling

That 026 is looking good

What have you tried on the 261 mufflers so far?


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## ernurse

That 026 looks and sounds healthy.


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> That 026 is looking good
> 
> What have you tried on the 261 mufflers so far?



Uploading pics of that now.


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## blsnelling

ernurse said:


> That 026 looks and sounds healthy.



Looks like I'm going to have to go back inside mine:msp_w00t:


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## Mastermind

This is what I've always done on the 261. That way if it must be screened I can make a slot for the screen in the deflector and use a open mesh. And it bypasses the internal pipe this way too.


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## ernurse

blsnelling said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to go back inside mine:msp_w00t:



I don't think it looks quite as healthy as the one you sold that had the bigger carb on it...that saw was just plain insanity.


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## ernurse

Mastermind said:


> This is what I've always done on the 261. That way if it must be screened I can make a slot for the screen in the deflector and use a open mesh. And it bypasses the internal pipe this way too.



That looks nice but when I modded my 441c-m and my 880 similar to that they started to melt the handles.


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## blsnelling

ernurse said:


> I don't think it looks quite as healthy as the one you sold that had the bigger carb on it...that saw was just plain insanity.



Mine has been handily spanked by another 026. I seriously doubt mine would stand up to this one. Back to the 261s.


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## Mastermind

ernurse said:


> That looks nice but when I modded my 441c-m and my 880 similar to that they started to melt the handles.



I've not had any trouble with melting.....but I don't do anything to the deflector.


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## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> This is what I've always done on the 261. That way if it must be screened I can make a slot for the screen in the deflector and use a open mesh. And it bypasses the internal pipe this way too.



That looks pretty open, Randy, more than I open up the stock side on mine. Now I'm really curious how it responds with another port.


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> That looks pretty open, Randy, more than I open up the stock side on mine. Now I'm really curious how it responds with another port.



We'll do one of the mufflers with another port to see.


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## ernurse

Mastermind said:


> I've not had any trouble with melting.....but I don't do anything to the deflector.



After looking at pictures of mine...I hogged everything out from under the deflector so thats probably what I did wrong.


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## blsnelling

ernurse said:


> After looking at pictures of mine...I hogged everything out from under the deflector so thats probably what I did wrong.



I actually leave the factory provisions for the spark arrestor screen. You don't want to remove material any farther forward than what the deflector covers. Otherwise, you will be shooting more exhaust onto the brake handle.


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## blsnelling

Joe Kidd said:


> Just relax and think on it.



That's what I'm actually doing this weekend


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> Just relax and think on it.
> View attachment 312642



That is a messed up critter.


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## Mastermind

Brad, I don't know how in the world you make those slots look so good. These I did look like ####. 

I'm gonna do a welded deflector so I don't have to hang my head is shame when someone sees this mess. :msp_sad:


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## zogger

Joe Kidd said:


> Just relax and think on it.
> View attachment 312642



Skeksis!


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## Stihlman441

:smile2:
opcorn:opcorn:


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## ernurse

zogger said:


> Skeksis!



Showing your age there a little....Dark Crystal was from the '80's:msp_biggrin:


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## ernurse

Mastermind said:


> Brad, I don't know how in the world you make those slots look so good. These I did look like ####.
> 
> I'm gonna do a welded deflector so I don't have to hang my head is shame when someone sees this mess. :msp_sad:



Do you use a wire welder on the super thin stainless and regular mufflers or do you braze them?


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## Mastermind

ernurse said:


> Do you use a wire welder on the super thin stainless and regular mufflers or do you braze them?



Looking for a stick of silver I've put somewhere.....


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## Mastermind

I'm gonna get a bite to eat......I hate it when I put something up, then can't remember where I put it.


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## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> Looking for a stick of silver I've put somewhere.....



Eutectic "pink" fluxed 1020 FC brazing rod. It's killer on SS.


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## Mike from Maine

“If a cluttered bench is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty bench a sign?”


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> Eutectic "pink" fluxed 1020 FC brazing rod. It's killer on SS.



I'll need to remember that. I never found the silver and had to "wing it" with white fluxed brazing rod. It ain't my best looking work.......but it really helped. Adding more opening gained us 14.7%. 

Check my math to be sure.........we were at a 17 second average, and went to a 14.5 second average. That's 2.5 seconds faster....and 2.5 seconds is 14.7% of 17. Correct? 



Mike from Maine said:


> “If a cluttered bench is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty bench a sign?”



It a sign of a sorry mechanic. :msp_wink:


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## mdavlee

Randy you need a tig welder setup so you can weld the muffler deflectors on.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> Randy you need a tig welder setup so you can weld the muffler deflectors on.



Yes I do


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## mdavlee

I need to get set up at home myself. I want to get the stuff to weld aluminum too.


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## Mastermind

Moving on to the squish setting......


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> I need to get set up at home myself. I want to get the stuff to weld aluminum too.



I'm gonna try to put up a larger shop over the winter........a knee mill, blasting cabinet, and a tig welder will be top of the list then.


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## mdavlee

Let me know when you're ready for the welding stuff.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> Let me know when you're ready for the welding stuff.



You better believe that....

I don't have a clue about what to get on tig.


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## Mastermind

Did y'all see Jon's old 026?

He's a little heavy handed with it, but it does pretty well. :msp_biggrin:


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## mdavlee

That little bugger is cutting pretty good.


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## Schneider

Who ground the .325 square chain? I want one.


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## Joe Kidd

How does Poplar compare to Red Oak? Poplar is not popular here.


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## Mastermind

Schneider said:


> Who ground the .325 square chain? I want one.



Jon (my son in law) prides himself on his ability to make .325 really go. 



Joe Kidd said:


> How does Poplar compare to Red Oak? Poplar is not popular here.



Red oak is much harder Jeff.


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## fastLeo151

Schneider said:


> Who ground the .325 square chain? I want one.



I want one to....


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## Schneider

Will Jon grind a .325 square chain for anyone? If so how do I contact him.


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## john_bud

Joe Kidd said:


> How does Poplar compare to Red Oak? Poplar is not popular here.



Poplar is a pulp wood in the same family as aspen and I think cotton wood. Fast growing and soft. 


I would like to see more of the muffler mods. I tried to do one on my 261 emulating Mr Snelling. Thread is great so far!


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## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> Jon (my son in law) prides himself on his ability to make .325 really go.



That's awesome! I've tried it a couple times and never could get it faster than muh 3/8s square....I finally gave up .


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## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> That's awesome! I've tried it a couple times and never could get it faster than muh 3/8s square....I finally gave up .



I ain't gonna say it's faster than 3/8 square Durand. Just that's it's much faster than .325 RSC.


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## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> I ain't gonna say it's faster than 3/8 square Durand. Just that's it's much faster than .325 RSC.



One things for sure, that 026 is cutting like a sum buck!


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## mdavlee

If you get a chance throw a nice 16" 3/8" loop on the 261 and run it. That's how a lot of guys would run it any way.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> If you get a chance throw a nice 16" 3/8" loop on the 261 and run it. That's how a lot of guys would run it any way.



Oh that's gonna happen too. Before the mods, and after. Remember, I still have a "C" that is unmolested.


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## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> One things for sure, that 026 is cutting like a sum buck!



Finger ports and an 044 carb.....


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## mdavlee

I've lost track of how many were there now. :beer:


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## Schneider

Mastermind said:


> I ain't gonna say it's faster than 3/8 square Durand. Just that's it's much faster than .325 RSC.



How do i contact Jon? Does he square grind .325 chain for the public


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> I've lost track of how many were there now. :beer:



If I was a drinker......I'd be drinking right now too my friend. :msp_wink:


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## Mastermind

Schneider said:


> How do i contact Jon? Does he square grind .325 chain for the public



Sure, he said he would be glad do a loop for you. 

Send me an email.


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## mdavlee

I'm drinking ginger ale this evening. I couldn't decide what beer to buy at the store the other day. Too many choices of stuff. I don't know what it is.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> I'm drinking ginger ale this evening. I couldn't decide what beer to buy at the store the other day. Too many choices of stuff. I don't know what it is.



LMAO 

When I did drink, I only drank Crown Royal on ice.


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## komatsuvarna

You by chance got a 550 sittin' around for this comparison too?


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## MindFork

Mastermind said:


> Finger ports and an 044 carb.....


I want an 026 like that!


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## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> You by chance got a 550 sittin' around for this comparison too?



A couple or three....


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## mdavlee

Mastermind said:


> LMAO
> 
> When I did drink, I only drank Crown Royal on ice.



I like craft beer. I don't drink to get drunk any more. I like a good tasting beer with dinner.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> I like craft beer. I don't drink to get drunk any more. I like a good tasting beer with dinner.



I drank everyday....starting when I woke up. I also worked everyday, and never was drunk. My liver just said #### it one day and that was over.


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## mdavlee

I could imagine so. I used to get drunk almost every night when I was at home. I never missed work but it was a waste of money and time.


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## Mastermind

mdavlee said:


> I could imagine so. I used to get drunk almost every night when I was at home. I never missed work but it was *a waste of money and time*.



I agree 1000%

I was in a restaurant/bar with my wife one night, we ate supper and was listening to a band they had their. I was drinking Crown.....

The bar keep says "Hey Randy, see this bottle?" It was an empty fifth of Crown. I said "what about it?" She tells me that she opened it when I came in that night, and only served me out of it, just to see how much I drank. Then she asked me how in the hell I could drink so much and still be unfazed? Practice I said......lots of practice.


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## mdavlee

Yeah I finished several bottles in an evening and went to work the next day. Didn't accomplish a thing doing it either.


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## jchin

mdavlee said:


> Let me know when you're ready for the welding stuff.



Mr. Mdavlee, It would be a good jesture on your part since you are in TN, to help setup Randy with a tig machine. I have a Linde unit on wheels with built in stand for argon tank, adjustable flowmeter, and foot peddle heat control, long 220 cable if you need to roll the tig around the shop. I bought my welding equipment for my race car and I think Randy could use a setup similar to mine. Once Randy and Jon gets familar with tig welding, they will say why they waited so long. Tig welding is clean and will produce great beads once you mastermind it......


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## Joe Kidd

That had to be one expensive 5th.


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## Joe Kidd

Well hello J


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> That had to be one expensive 5th.



I bet....but at the time I was building houses and riding high.


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## jchin

Joe Kidd said:


> Well hello J



Hello to you Mr Joe Kidd


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## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> I bet....but at the time I was building houses and riding high.



I'm not a drinker but like gimmicks. A shot of Fireball from time to time will get the o' taste buds a rollin'.


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## Joe Kidd

jchin said:


> Hello to you Mr Joe Kidd



I trust your saws are still rockin'?


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## Raganr

Mastermind said:


> The first two cuts were off the roll RSC .325
> 
> The third cut was one of Jon's square ground .325 chains. The saws are still totally stock up to this point.
> 
> The reason I threw that video up was the show how much difference chain makes. Even though the first videos were done with new Stihl non-safety RSC chain, nearly a 38% improvement in cut speed was found just by swapping the chain.



I enjoy your build threads Randy, but can we get a thread on Jon's chain sharpening


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## Mastermind

Raganr said:


> I enjoy your build threads Randy, but can we get a thread on Jon's chain sharpening



Jon doesn't have the confidence I do.....in other words I'm a show off and a braggart, and Jon ain't.


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## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> Jon doesn't have the confidence I do.....in other words I'm a show off and a braggart, and Jon ain't.



But he's a heck of a nice guy. Look forward to next GTG with you two...
I remember him handing me a smaller saw and just said run it....I had no idea it was one of his chains or that he was doing square...that little bugger impressed the heck out of me.


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## jchin

Joe Kidd said:


> I trust your saws are still rockin'?



Yes they are, thanks to you.


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## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> But he's a heck of a nice guy. Look forward to next GTG with you two...
> I remember him handing me a smaller saw and just said run it....I had no idea it was one of his chains or that he was doing square...that little bugger impressed the heck out of me.



Get your big ass to KY Sept 28....


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## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> Jon doesn't have the confidence I do.....in other words I'm a show off and a braggart, and Jon ain't.



That's ok, You can be like one of the babes on the "price is right" and just show-off the product!


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> That's ok, You can be like one of the babes on the "price is right" and just show-off the product!



Oh? You missed the video?


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## jchin

Mastermind said:


> Jon doesn't have the confidence I do.....in other words I'm a show off and a braggart, and Jon ain't.



Mr Mastermind, I was so impressed with the .325 chain that Jon did on the 261 saw. I said to myself, OMG......... You must do a thread on Jon's chains.


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## Mastermind

jchin said:


> Mr Mastermind, I was so impressed with the .325 chain that Jon did on the 261 saw. I said to myself, OMG......... You must do a thread on Jon's chains.



We'll be showing off more of his chain later in this thread. I gotta be careful Jack, Jon will be snowed under doing chain.


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## Joe Kidd

jchin said:


> Mr Mastermind, I was so impressed with the .325 chain that Jon did on the 261 saw. I said to myself, OMG......... You must do a thread on Jon's chains.



"Jon's chain service" in the new shop??


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## CR500

Joe Kidd said:


> That had to be one expensive 5th.



it's cheaper and more fullfiling to dabble in making your own lol


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## Mastermind

CR500 said:


> it's cheaper and more fullfiling to dabble in making your own lol



I did that too.....

I made wine and brandy for years.


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> "Jon's chain service" in the new shop??



I think it's heading that way. :msp_wink:


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## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> I did that too.....
> 
> I made wine and brandy for years.



Was that "Port" wine?


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## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> We'll be showing off more of his chain later in this thread. I gotta be careful Jack, Jon will be snowed under doing chain.



Hey...it'll give him something to do while you twirl your spinny thing in the cylinders, upload videos, talk on the phone, swap pie recipes, etc and he waits.


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## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> Was that "Port" wine?



I've even made wine from Honeysuckle flowers.....

I'm gonna go in the house and spend some time with my wife. I've cut the base to set squish on the C-M.....we'll get back to it in the AM.


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## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> Hey...it'll give him something to do while you twirl your spinny thing in the cylinders, upload videos, talk on the phone, swap pie recipes, etc and he waits.



Pie? :msp_biggrin:

I like pie.


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## Joe Kidd

Joe Kidd said:


> Was that "Port" wine?



Brandy over bananas is good too!


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## Fire8

Ok randy you play with the new saws
How much for Johns 026. HaHA


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## jchin

Mastermind said:


> I've even made wine from Honeysuckle flowers.....
> 
> I'm gonna go in the house and spend some time with my wife. I've cut the base to set squish on the C-M.....we'll get back to it in the AM.



Good night johnboy, good night maryaline, good night grandma,.................


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## Duane(Pa)

Mastermind said:


> Pie? :msp_biggrin:
> 
> I like pie.



I went into a pie shop and the pie keep says see this pie? I said yea, what about it?........


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## Twangfactor

*How about a ...*

... vid of Jon's hands and the grinder. He could be prepping the wheel and grinding the chain. You could be the front man doing all of the talking. Here it is: take a saw, with a new loop of .325 RS chain and make a couple cuts, take the chain loop off and make it square ground. Put the chain loop back on and make a couple cuts and talk about the difference. I bet Jon will get a ton of work from that.

:msp_w00t:


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## blsnelling

I was out for a few hours and just got caught up. I'm right surprised your first MM didn't do the trick. As yourself, I would have thought that would have been plenty, especially on a stock saw. Very interesting.


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## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> I was out for a few hours and just got caught up. I'm right surprised your first MM didn't do the trick. As yourself, I would have thought that would have been plenty, especially on a stock saw. Very interesting.



The more we know.......the less we understand. :msp_wink:


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## Mastermind

Twangfactor said:


> ... vid of Jon's hands and the grinder. He could be prepping the wheel and grinding the chain. You could be the front man doing all of the talking. Here it is: take a saw, with a new loop of .325 RS chain and make a couple cuts, take the chain loop off and make it square ground. Put the chain loop back on and make a couple cuts and talk about the difference. I bet Jon will get a ton of work from that.
> 
> :msp_w00t:



If we get any busier, we'll be in serious trouble. My wife says so. :msp_sad:


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> I bet....but at the time I was building houses and riding high.



What? Now you are building chainsaws and riding low????? Hardly...:msp_wink:

This is looking like another great build!


----------



## SCHallenger

Subscribed!


----------



## Mastermind

LowVolt said:


> What? Now you are building chainsaws and riding low????? Hardly...:msp_wink:
> 
> This is looking like another great build!



I was making over $100,000 a year building houses. 

Life ain't all about money though.


----------



## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> If we get any busier, *I'll* be in serious trouble. My wife says so. :msp_sad:



There. Fixed it for ya.


----------



## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> There. Fixed it for ya.



True......very true.


----------



## wigglesworth

Wutz goin on en here'z??


----------



## Mastermind

wigglesworth said:


> Wutz goin on en here'z??



I'm hanging out with Glenda, playing chess and chillin...


----------



## wigglesworth

Mastermind said:


> I'm hanging out with Glenda, playing chess and chillin...



Watchin transformers for the 395th time.


Get it?.. 395th time?


----------



## LowVolt

wigglesworth said:


> Watchin transformers for the 395th time.
> 
> 
> Get it?.. 395th time?



Serious? I just got done watching it also.

Real quick, Transformers 1 - awesome. Transformers 2 - not so much. Transformers 3 - pretty darn good.


----------



## Mastermind

wigglesworth said:


> Watchin transformers for the 395th time.
> 
> 
> Get it?.. 395th time?



You is special. :msp_wink:


----------



## wigglesworth

LowVolt said:


> Serious? I just got done watching it also.
> 
> Real quick, Transformers 1 - awesome. Transformers 2 - not so much. Transformers 3 - pretty darn good.



Agree totally



Mastermind said:


> You is special. :msp_wink:



Like exceptionally gifted special, or short bus, helmet kinda special?


----------



## Mastermind

wigglesworth said:


> Agree totally
> 
> 
> 
> Like exceptionally gifted special, or short bus, helmet kinda special?



I'll let you pick since you is muh friend. :msp_wink:


----------



## Anthony_Va.

261cm? Dang I have been gone a long time.  

How's it hangin Randy?


----------



## Mastermind

Anthony_Va. said:


> 261cm? Dang I have been gone a long time.
> 
> How's it hangin Randy?



Yes you have......

I'm doing very well sir.....and yourself?


----------



## chadihman

Mastermind said:


> I've got muffler modded videos uploading. I didn't see any increases at all from the muffler mods I did.
> 
> I'm wondering if the way I mod them is ineffective or what? :msp_sad:



A little while ago I tested my 461 with a stock muffler and a dual port on the dyno. I was really surprised that there was no gain. Stihl is on to something. These new Stihls are pretty damn impressive. 461 nice gains over a 460 261 has nice gains over the 260 and now we have to wait on the 661.


----------



## andydodgegeek

Good thread, nice to see builders working together and being civil. I am looking forward to meeting both Randy and Brad at Wiggs GTG.


----------



## wigglesworth

andydodgegeek said:


> Good thread, nice to see builders working together and being civil. I am looking forward to meeting both Randy and Brad at Wiggs GTG.



Hey!!!

What about me?


----------



## Mastermind

chadihman said:


> A little while ago I tested my 461 with a stock muffler and a dual port on the dyno. I was really surprised that there was no gain. Stihl is on to something. These new Stihls are pretty damn impressive. 461 nice gains over a 460 261 has nice gains over the 260 and now we have to wait on the 661.



I'm interested in seeing one of these 261Cs after 15 or 20 tanks....



andydodgegeek said:


> Good thread, *nice to see builders working together and being civil*. I am looking forward to meeting both Randy and Brad at Wiggs GTG.



I like it too Andy.


----------



## Mastermind

wigglesworth said:


> Hey!!!
> 
> What about me?



Who are you again?


----------



## young

wigglesworth said:


> Hey!!!
> 
> What about me?





Mastermind said:


> Who are you again?



like the bestest saw builder in kentucky. too bad he is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slow. :tongue2:


----------



## procarbine2k1

Anthony_Va. said:


> 261cm? Dang I have been gone a long time.
> 
> How's it hangin Randy?



I thought you got into Barbie doll collectin'. haha Figured you have been busy with the farm, wondered why you haven't been around lately. Hope all is well buddy...


----------



## VinceGU05

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna try to put up a larger shop over the winter........a knee mill, blasting cabinet, and a tig welder will be top of the list then.


get a TIG welder with pulse setting.. awesome for thin gauge steel.


----------



## Officer's Match

jchin said:


> Good night johnboy, good night maryaline, good night grandma,.................



Good (subbed in) night.


----------



## Moparmyway

Joe Kidd said:


> Eutectic "pink" fluxed 1020 FC brazing rod. It's killer on SS.



@ over $300/pound - you better have good torch welding practices before you purchase any


----------



## Anthony_Va.

procarbine2k1 said:


> I thought you got into Barbie doll collectin'. haha Figured you have been busy with the farm, wondered why you haven't been around lately. Hope all is well buddy...



Ha! How'd you know I liked them barbie dolls? 
Yea I've been busy bro, but I'm starting to find a little free time. I'll be around here a little more if you guys will have me. Good to see you all again.


----------



## deye223

:Eye:^:Eye:


----------



## andydodgegeek

wigglesworth said:


> Hey!!!
> 
> What about me?



Well yeah, I will personally make you a stool.


----------



## andydodgegeek

deye223 said:


> :Eye:^:Eye:



Don't look at me like that, your creeping me out.


----------



## TK

wigglesworth said:


> Like exceptionally gifted special, or short bus, helmet kinda special?



Short Bus + Helmet fo sho.........


----------



## MCW

Subscriptioning and stuff...


----------



## Joe Kidd

Moparmyway said:


> @ over $300/pound - you better have good torch welding practices before you purchase any



Yep. It ain't cheap.


----------



## Hedgerow

andydodgegeek said:


> Well yeah, I will personally make you a stool.



Wiggs has no idea what he's in for...


----------



## sunfish

Anthony_Va. said:


> Ha! How'd you know I liked them barbie dolls?
> Yea I've been busy bro, but I'm starting to find a little free time. I'll be around here a little more if you guys will have me. Good to see you all again.



Wondered about ya bud. Good to have ya back!


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Wiggs has no idea what he's in for...



Maybe he'll let Wiggs help.... :cool2:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Maybe he'll let Wiggs help.... :cool2:



I think he should use J's race chain to build the stool with... 
That will make the process faster... Maybe less painful??


----------



## rburg

Do you have a 550/2253 you could compare to the 261 models you are working on? For some reason these 50cc models are looking better as I get older.


----------



## Mastermind

rburg said:


> Do you have a 550/2253 you could compare to the 261 models you are working on? For some reason these 50cc models are looking better as I get older.



I sure do my friend.


----------



## Trx250r180

on Jon's 026 ,are you able to get a filter on it and use the stock filter cover with an 044 carb ?


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> on Jon's 026 ,are you able to get a filter on it and use the stock filter cover with an 044 carb ?



Yes.


----------



## Mastermind

Mastermind said:


> Yes.



But it runs better with no filter.


----------



## Majorpayne

Mastermind said:


> But it runs better with no filter.



But not longer.


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> But it runs better with no filter.


 will an 044 stud mount there with filter base ,maybe trimmed ,with an 044 hd filter cover and filter look goofy ? i'm just thinking out loud ,seems like it wouldn't look any worse than those foam ones they sell at the saw shop


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> will an 044 stud mount there with filter base ,maybe trimmed ,with an 044 hd filter cover and filter look goofy ? i'm just thinking out loud ,seems like it wouldn't look any worse than those foam ones they sell at the saw shop



I doubt it......but anything is possible. We're gonna make a V stack for it and just play with it at GTGs.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I doubt it......but anything is possible. We're gonna make a V stack for it and just play with it at GTGs.



And it'll run for years just doing that with it... 
Besides, 026's like a little sawdust in their diet...
Sometimes they'll even burp out a burning ember or two...


----------



## Mastermind

After setting squish to .020

[video=youtube;meHquPQvSoQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHquPQvSoQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]


----------



## luckydad

Mastermind said:


> After setting squish to .020
> 
> [video=youtube;meHquPQvSoQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHquPQvSoQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]



Looking good !!:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Joe Kidd

You're not stopping to grill out are you? :msp_tongue:


----------



## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> You're not stopping to grill out are you? :msp_tongue:



I'm done for today. 

So far we've made about an 18.5% increase in cut speed in this large wood without any port work. 

In smaller wood, I bet it would be more.


----------



## Trx250r180

does it take long for the fuel system to "re learn" after each mod ?


----------



## brian99574

Mastermind said:


> Here we go guys. This may be a long drawn out thread....so be patient please. I've got these three saws here to use for as test subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have a regular MS261 that just came out of the box. We also have a new MS261 C-M The was sent here by one of our members to test on, and we have my own MS261 C-M that will remain stock throughout all this so we will have it to compare to in all tests.
> 
> Many of you guys have watched Brad and myself go round and round in one conflict after another over the last year or so. I must admit that I could have done a much better job at keeping that from happening. I'm tired of the bickering. Brad and I have both agreed to let all that crap go.
> 
> I've invited Brad to be a part of this thread, and look forward to his input and ideas. Brad was the guy that devised gutting the strato ports from the first 261 when it didn't seem to respond well to normal porting....so it only seems fitting that he should be a part of anything we do on this new model.
> 
> I also would like to invite everyone to ask any questions and add any input to this thread as you see fit. This site is here for us all the share our thoughts and experiences. I only ask that any derogatory comments be checked at the door. We don't need that here.



Hey Randy any chance that 261 is for a guy in Alaska? Love the thread. Keep up the great work and looking forward to seeing how it compares in the end.


----------



## ohio andy

Not to start a whizzin match, but do you intend to run it beside a 550 auto tune that has been worked over? I assume they are comparable CC's with both having auto tuning carbs.


----------



## UK Rich

My o My - I've been away for too long!

Didn't even know the 261c was in a line up...

Keeping up the good work I see Randy!

Rich


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> does it take long for the fuel system to "re learn" after each mod ?



It takes longer on the Huskys I think. Stihl has their act together on the M-Tronic system. 



ohio andy said:


> Not to start a whizzin match, but do you intend to run it beside a 550 auto tune that has been worked over? I assume they are comparable CC's with both having auto tuning carbs.



I'll be running a modded 550XP in this same wood. I look for the 261 C-M to best it in this size wood though. The 550XP was made for limbing and topping. It's a higher rpm type saw that doesn't have the torque that the Stihl has.


----------



## Mastermind

brian99574 said:


> Hey Randy any chance that 261 is for a guy in Alaska? Love the thread. Keep up the great work and looking forward to seeing how it compares in the end.



Sure is......you know that guy do ya? :msp_wink:


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Mastermind said:


> That's a 37.8% increase.



That's a pretty awesome increase just changing cutter geometry.
Not asking to give away all Jon's secrets, but was that Square chisel running a standard 
raker height of .025" or so?
I'm experimenting a little turning my spare .325" round to square.

very nice thread guys!


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> That's a pretty awesome increase just changing cutter geometry.
> Not asking to give away all Jon's secrets, but was that Square chisel running a standard
> raker height of .025" or so?
> I'm experimenting a little turning my spare .325" round to square.
> 
> very nice thread guys!



Yes.....in all honesty it's nothing special. Chain is a black art or some such stuff......sometimes you find a great combination without even looking.


----------



## ShaneLogs

Looks good!


----------



## Walt41

Randy, just because the voices in my head won't let it go...I was called upon to install one of those throttle body spacers on a GM 6.2 today and the guy was (possibly) sold a bill of goods and told that the spacer gives power gains of (up to) 10%. I was wondering if there is room in there for you to play with spacing and shaping on the intake side to increase velocity...I may be smoking saw chips on my theory but I had to ask. 
A few years from now I'll bet we will be printing custom intakes on our 3D printers anyhow, I know I want one when the price comes into my range.


----------



## Mastermind

Walt41 said:


> Randy, just because the voices in my head won't let it go...I was called upon to install one of those throttle body spacers on a GM 6.2 today and the guy was (possibly) sold a bill of goods and told that the spacer gives power gains of (up to) 10%. I was wondering if there is room in there for you to play with spacing and shaping on the intake side to increase velocity...I may be smoking saw chips on my theory but I had to ask.
> A few years from now I'll bet we will be printing custom intakes on our 3D printers anyhow, I know I want one when the price comes into my range.



There's a lot that can be done on intake length tuning (over my head too). But there isn't room on this saw to play with such things.


----------



## blsnelling

Try removing the bottom ring from the piston and see what happens. I do not use two rings on these saws when they go back together. Ever since the 460 build-off, I leave the bottom ring off many saws. On the 460, the saw made several hundred more RPMs in the cut. You're freeing up a lot of friction by removing that bottom ring. As far as compression goes, I doubt you'll see more than a 5 PSI change.


----------



## john_bud

blsnelling said:


> Try removing the bottom ring from the piston and see what happens. I do not use two rings on these saws when they go back together. Ever since the 460 build-off, I leave the bottom ring off many saws. On the 460, the saw made several hundred more RPMs in the cut. You're freeing up a lot of friction by removing that bottom ring. As far as compression goes, I doubt you'll see more than a 5 PSI change.



Interesting concept. Have you investigated using a "gapless" ring design like the automotive aftermarket has ? They may not go small enough, but I've seen 47.5mm gapless from Total Seal.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Try removing the bottom ring from the piston and see what happens. I do not use two rings on these saws when they go back together. Ever since the 460 build-off, I leave the bottom ring off many saws. On the 460, the saw made several hundred more RPMs in the cut. You're freeing up a lot of friction by removing that bottom ring. As far as compression goes, I doubt you'll see more than a 5 PSI change.



No, I'm gonna have both rings....sorry. 

The only time I'll do that is if the ring ends interfere with my port work.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> No, I'm gonna have both rings....sorry.
> 
> The only time I'll do that is if the ring ends interfere with my port work.



Good policy... Though the single ring thing does work... If you're needing some more Rpm's...


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Good policy... Though the single ring thing does work... If you're needing some more Rpm's...



I agree. But I'd rather lose a few R's and keep both rings.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I agree. But I'd rather lose a few R's and keep both rings.



It'll be within a file stroke or two either way... I think we already saw that...
Though I am guilty of relocating a pin and centering a single ring...
Because I just can't help myself...
:msp_sad:


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> It'll be within a file stroke or two either way... I think we already saw that...
> Though I am guilty of relocating a pin and centering a single ring...
> Because I just can't help myself...
> :msp_sad:



I did that same thing on Brian's hybrid when I put fingers in it.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I did that same thing on Brian's hybrid when I put fingers in it.



Yup... Really opens your possibilities...


----------



## Hedgerow

In my case...
To screw something up royally!!!


----------



## chadihman

Mastermind said:


> It takes longer on the Huskys I think. Stihl has their act together on the M-Tronic system.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be running a modded 550XP in this same wood. I look for the 261 C-M to best it in this size wood though. The 550XP was made for limbing and topping. It's a higher rpm type saw that doesn't have the torque that the Stihl has.



It's all about torque. I've been filling my brain with lots of info from my dyno tests. You nailed it Randy. Screamers are good for limbing. The 550XP might have the same HP or more than the 261 C-M but the 261 hold onto that max hp longer. Most saw have there max hp around 9000 rpms. The high torque saws hold that max hp # in a broader range of rpms. The saw of my choice would be the one that has max hp from 6500 rpm to 9500 rpms not one that has max hp at 10,000 rpms then drops quickly because of it's lack of torque.

Forgot to add I love this thread you Rock Randy and crew.


----------



## wigglesworth

chadihman said:


> It's all about torque.



Yup. You can always gear up to get your chain speed....


----------



## Hedgerow

wigglesworth said:


> Yup. You can always gear up to get your chain speed....



Yup... But I still like sheer horspowah!!!
I'll figure out how to use it...
:msp_wink:


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> I did that same thing on Brian's hybrid when I put fingers in it.



I like fingers almost as much as you like pie..........


----------



## Mastermind

Do I smell pie? :msp_biggrin:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Do I smell pie? :msp_biggrin:



May be one of Andy's stools... 
They're sorta everywhere...


----------



## brian99574

*well....*



Mastermind said:


> Sure is......you know that guy do ya? :msp_wink:



i seem to run into him once in a while when i look into the mirror. i hear hes pretty excited about the project and has some other projects in mind.....046, 064, 066, 660 and his newest arrival an 048 av he picked up over the weekend while falling a tree for friend.....maybe even a 2100 cd later on.....he says to keep up the good work and looks forward to the results.


----------



## bryanr2

brian99574 said:


> i seem to run into him once in a while when i look into the mirror. i hear hes pretty excited about the project and has some other projects in mind.....046, 064, 066, 660 and his newest arrival an 048 av he picked up over the weekend while falling a tree for friend.....maybe even a 2100 cd later on.....he says to keep up the good work and looks forward to the results.



There was a rumored Mastermind 2100cd rebuild/ port thread here a while back. Might ease your decision.


----------



## MCW

I'd really like to see a 261C worked off it's tits and then a more sensible build side by side.
Super quick may sound all good for a fun saw but for a work saw it ain't that good or efficient.


----------



## Mastermind

bryanr2 said:


> There was a rumored Mastermind 2100cd rebuild/ port thread here a while back. Might ease your decision.



I tried to send you a PM yesterday.......clean yer box. 



MCW said:


> I'd really like to see a 261C worked off it's tits and then a more sensible build side by side.
> Super quick may sound all good for a fun saw but for a work saw it ain't that good or efficient.



The saw in this thread will be a simple worksaw, I've not started porting it yet. So far all I've done is a muffler mod and set the squish to .020...

The 026 in one of the videos, that was a saw just for GTGs and stuff.


----------



## Scooterbum

Randy 
As always I enjoy your threads on builds. But this one more so with the gains being shown at each mod. I know that takes a bit of time with all the video shoots and uploading. 
Just wanting to let you know it's enjoyed very much here. Keep it up Buddy !!


----------



## bryanr2

cleaned the inbox


----------



## Mastermind

Scooterbum said:


> Randy
> As always I enjoy your threads on builds. But this one more so with the gains being shown at each mod. I know that takes a bit of time with all the video shoots and uploading.
> Just wanting to let you know it's enjoyed very much here. Keep it up Buddy !!



I must admit that Brad sorta pushed me into doing it this way. I don't really have the sort of time it takes to do one this way often though. 

Right now I'm porting the OE MS261 and will then try that jug on the M-Tronic saw. I'm pretty sure it won't run that way, but what the heck.......we've gone this far, so I figure we should try that too. 

Then when I put the MS261 jug back on, it will be ported, but with the stratos intact, and with the compression at 210 or so.


----------



## Scooterbum

I'm curious to see the difference's between these 2 saws. Not that I'll be runnin' one. Since I joined the "30cc gang".
I did manage to get one of those new "Sabot" pistons installed in the 064 to knock her down to 30cc's so i can still run her though..............


----------



## Mastermind

Scooterbum said:


> I'm curious to see the difference's between these 2 saws. Not that I'll be runnin' one. Since I joined the "30cc gang".
> I did manage to get one of those new "Sabot" pistons installed in the 064 to knock her down to 30cc's so i can still run her though..............



My first attempt at porting this new design will be a conservative approach for sure. Mostly I'll be adding intake timing and compression. I'd rather err on the side of caution than overshoot the mark. 

Sabot piston huh? 

What if a guy tied helium balloons on the saw? Would that make it tighter? opcorn:


----------



## Scooterbum

Mastermind said:


> My first attempt at porting this new design will be a conservative approach for sure. Mostly I'll be adding intake timing and compression. I'd rather err on the side of caution than overshoot the mark.
> 
> *Sabot piston huh? *
> 
> What if a guy tied helium balloons on the saw? Would that make it tighter? opcorn:



Yeah you just resleeve with one of them new Space AgeTeflon Liners and a dinky piston. Pretty slick....................................................................................................................................................................................................................I''l go back to my corner now.


----------



## Yukon Stihl

Mastermind said:


> Do I smell pie? :msp_biggrin:



Are you sniffing fingers again?


----------



## Mastermind

Color me overly surprised. I installed the jug I gutted the stratos on the "C" model and it seems to be running just fine. Excellent throttle response and everything. I'm gonna eat some lunch and then try it in wood. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> Color me overly surprised. I installed the jug I gutted the stratos on the "C" model and it seems to be running just fine. Excellent throttle response and everything. I'm gonna eat some lunch and then try it in wood. :msp_thumbup:



Have any of the other m-tronic had fueling issues?


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Have any of the other m-tronic had fueling issues?



No, none that I've done. I still doubt this saw will pull like it should with the strato ports gutted. It's idles and revs good but..........


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> No, none that I've done. I still doubt this saw will pull like it should with the strato ports gutted. It's idles and revs good but..........



You're thinking the engineers may know something?


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> You're thinking the engineers may know something?



I'd reckon. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Hedgerow

thomas1 said:


> You're thinking the engineers may know something?



Yeah...
They know all sorts of things...
Problem is, with all the "Things" rolling around in those heads of theirs, it's hard for anyone to decide what exactly, they meant to do...
And why...


----------



## Mastermind

I've got a video uploading....for the second time. The first failed for some reason. 

I didn't see any serious gains though. 13.22 seconds. We were at 13.97 with just the muffler mod and the squish mod.


----------



## john_bud

Is there a learn time lag after changes?


----------



## Mastermind

john_bud said:


> Is there a learn time lag after changes?



Running the saw with the choke on for a minute is suppose to set the system.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Mastermind said:


> Brad, I don't know how in the world you make those slots look so good. These I did look like ####.
> 
> I'm gonna do a welded deflector so I don't have to hang my head is shame when someone sees this mess. :msp_sad:



I made the mistake of cutting all four slots with a thin cut wheel and then attempted to shape and bend them with a pair of duck bill pliers.
After looking at it, and trying to figure out how Brad keeps his neat, I came to the conclusion that he cuts the front slot 1st and bends it. Then proceeds to work his way back, cutting and bending as he goes. 
Cutting all the slots 1st and then bending 2nd will make for a mess that's tough to straighten out. Do em 1 at time....starting in the front



Mastermind said:


> Do I smell pie? :msp_biggrin:



Get your finger outta your nose.....didn't you just drop the browns off at the superbowl?........friggen hog


----------



## Mastermind




----------



## moody

Looks good lots of pull for a little guy


----------



## Trx250r180




----------



## Mastermind

moody said:


> Looks good lots of pull for a little guy





Trx250r180 said:


>



We ain't done yet fellers.

That jug just came back off.


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> We ain't done yet fellers.
> 
> That jug just came back off.



if we could figure a way to feed it a little more ,it would be a bad little mofo


----------



## showrguy

randy,
yer sneakers are full of sawdust/chips !!


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> if we could figure a way to feed it a little more ,it would be a bad little mofo



It's not running lean......I really think less fuel might be what it needs. :msp_ohmy:


----------



## cutforfun

What happens if you pull the air filter, will the carb instantly make the adjustments and feed fuel? How far can the carb go before it won't feed enough fuel. I know they will adjust for an air leak, but that is not going to work if it already flowing at its max.


----------



## Mastermind

cutforfun said:


> What happens if you pull the air filter, will the carb instantly make the adjustments and feed fuel? How far can the carb go before it won't feed enough fuel. I know they will adjust for an air leak, but that is not going to work if it already flowing at its max.



Huskys autotune system will provide enough fuel to flood a ported saw out when they have an air leak. I figure this system would be the same. 

I'm moving on the just leaving the strato system intact and porting it that way now.


----------



## cutforfun

I wonder if you did not do the recalibration if you would have had similar results as brad?


----------



## Mastermind

cutforfun said:


> I wonder if you did not do the recalibration if you would have had similar results as brad?



I didn't look at Brad's thread much at all. What results are you referring to?


----------



## blsnelling

Did you remove the plastic divider in the carb venturi?

I re-calibrated for each mod.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Did you remove the plastic divider in the carb venturi?
> 
> I re-calibrated for each mod.



Of course not. That would throw all the system's calibrations out because it would racially lower the signal at the fuel nozzle. :msp_confused:


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> Of course not. That would throw all the system's calibrations out because it would *radically* lower the signal at the fuel nozzle. :msp_confused:



Fixed.


----------



## Adirondackstihl

Mastermind said:


> Of course not. That would throw all the system's calibrations out because it would racially lower the signal at the fuel nozzle. :msp_confused:



opcorn:


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Fixed.



Righto. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## cutforfun

Mastermind said:


> I didn't look at Brad's thread much at all. What results are you referring to?



The carb would not provide enough fuel to run.


----------



## Mastermind

cutforfun said:


> The carb would not provide enough fuel to run.



No, I didn't see that problem.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Of course not. That would throw all the system's calibrations out because it would racially lower the signal at the fuel nozzle. :msp_confused:



That would explain why it runs. But it also explains why it didn't make much difference in power. You're still only adding fuel for half the volume of air going through the carb, then allowing that to mix with the fresh air from the bottom half of the carb. In order for gutting the stratos to make sense, you must provide fuel for all air going through the carb.


----------



## thomas1

blsnelling said:


> That would explain why it runs. But it also explains why it didn't make much difference in power. You're still only adding fuel for half the volume of air going through the carb, then allowing that to mix with the fresh air from the bottom half of the carb. In order for gutting the stratos to make sense, you must provide fuel for all air going through the carb.



You're saying the saw is getting twice as much air and only half the full it needs? Wouldn't it be incredibly lean, if that were the case?


----------



## blsnelling

The whole idea of gutting the stratos is to provide fuel for all air entering the engine. With that divider in place, you're still only providing fuel for half of the air entering the carb.


----------



## Hedgerow

thomas1 said:


> You're saying the saw is getting twice as much air and only half the full it needs? Wouldn't it be incredibly lean, if that were the case?



I don't think so... A portion of it is routed to the strato ports... Yes?


----------



## Mastermind

I'm not about to get into a pissing match.....but.

It will pull more fuel with the divider in place because the low pressure signal is stronger. That's why it wouldn't run at all with it removed.


----------



## thomas1

blsnelling said:


> The whole idea of gutting the stratos is to provide fuel to all air entering the engine. With that divider in place, you're still only providing fuel for half of the air entering the carb.



Sufficient fuel for half the air = incredibly lean

If a crack in an intake boot can make a saw lean out to the point of damage, a gaping hole through the carburetor should be worse, right?


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> I don't think so... A portion of it is routed to the strato ports... Yes?



Not really. It's only divided in the carb. The intake and jug are gutted, so it will mix there before it reaches the stratos.


----------



## Mastermind

The same jug on the OE MS261.

11.28 if my watch is right.


----------



## origionalrebel

opcorn:opcorn::Eye:


----------



## cutforfun

Mastermind said:


> Did y'all see Jon's old 026?
> 
> He's a little heavy handed with it, but it does pretty well. :msp_biggrin:
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;DeesktiRrug]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeesktiRrug[/video]





jon's 026 is Still the fastest saw in the whole thread(so far):msp_tongue:


----------



## Walt41

Where are you at compression wise at this point?


----------



## fastLeo151

So does that mean the m tronic makes less power than the old school carb?


----------



## Trx250r180

fastLeo151 said:


> So does that mean the m tronic makes less power than the old school carb?



no ,just that Jon builds a better 50cc saw otstir:


----------



## Hedgerow

Trx250r180 said:


> no ,just that Jon builds a better 50cc saw otstir:



And sharpens his chain...


----------



## Mastermind

Walt41 said:


> Where are you at compression wise at this point?



205psi on the OE MS261. I've not ported the MS261 C-M yet.



fastLeo151 said:


> So does that mean the m tronic makes less power than the old school carb?



I wouldn't say that yet. I just put the OE jug on the C-M to see how it reacted to gutting the stratos. I think it may do better with the system intact. 



cutforfun said:


> jon's 026 is Still the fastest saw in the whole thread(so far):msp_tongue:





Trx250r180 said:


> no ,just that Jon builds a better 50cc saw otstir:



I ported Jon's saw too......your argument is invalid. :msp_tongue:



Hedgerow said:


> And sharpens his chain...



Jon has me beat on chain.......for now. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## brian99574

Mastermind said:


> 205psi on the OE MS261. I've not ported the MS261 C-M yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say that yet. I just put the OE jug on the C-M to see how it reacted to gutting the stratos. I think it may do better with the system intact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ported Jon's saw too......your argument is invalid. :msp_tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> Jon has me beat on chain.......for now. :msp_thumbup:





What is the stock compression? what percent power increase do you estimate so far?


----------



## Mastermind

brian99574 said:


> What is the stock compression? what percent power increase do you estimate so far?



It was 155psi when I started. 

I figure between 35 - 40% gain on your saw. We started at about 18 seconds, with a fresh chain. Now we are down to about 11.....and the chain has two dozen or more cuts on it in this cant, and that many more in an oak round I'm using to help calibrate the M-Tronic.


----------



## brian99574

Mastermind said:


> It was 155psi when I started.
> 
> I figure between 35 - 40% gain on your saw. We started at about 18 seconds, with a fresh chain. Now we are down to about 11.....and the chain has two dozen or more cuts on it in this cant, and that many more in an oak round I'm using to help calibrate the M-Tronic.



SWEEEET! This is going to be one fun saw.....got a 16" 3/8 bar and stihl square chisel chain waiting to see what the saw will do....keep up the good work.


----------



## Mastermind

brian99574 said:


> SWEEEET! This is going to be one fun saw.....got a 16" 3/8 bar and stihl square chisel chain waiting to see what the saw will do....keep up the good work.



I put some rep on ya.....you was empty. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## shwinecat

Great thread Randy. It has given me a great oppurtunity to learn and I thank you for your time and your efforts. I like the fact you are wiling to share the knowledge. You learn and teach all at the same time.


----------



## treesmith

Randy, if its better than the 261 you sent me then it'll be a demon! I'm cutting dead gum with a 3/8 .063 18", using the full bar and it's no bother, this thing rocks! Your 660 getting a good work out too and I just can't decide which one I like more,  if I ever get back to America I'll be stopping by in TN to shake your hand, good work Sir


----------



## Mastermind

shwinecat said:


> Great thread Randy. It has given me a great oppurtunity to learn and I thank you for your time and your efforts. I like the fact you are wiling to share the knowledge. You learn and teach all at the same time.



Thanks for the kind words.....but you probably are giving me more credit than I deserve.


----------



## Mastermind

treesmith said:


> Randy, if its better than the 261 you sent me then it'll be a demon! I'm cutting dead gum with a 3/8 .063 18", using the full bar and it's no bother, this thing rocks! Your 660 getting a good work out too and I just can't decide which one I like more,  if I ever get back to America I'll be stopping by in TN to shake your hand, good work Sir



I tell everyone, the 261 is the best 50cc worksaw there is. :msp_wink:


----------



## treesmith

Mastermind said:


> I tell everyone, the 261 is the best 50cc worksaw there is. :msp_wink:



it's out cutting a 361 with new thinner chain in the same wood, it's just so easy to use and fuel consumption isn't too bad either


----------



## Mastermind

treesmith said:


> it's out cutting a 361 with new thinner chain in the same wood, it's just so easy to use and fuel consumption isn't too bad either



That's pretty dang impressive. A 361 is a strong runner.


----------



## Walt41

We are already 15 minutes into Wednesday, is it ported yet?


----------



## Mastermind

Walt41 said:


> We are already 15 minutes into Wednesday, is it ported yet?



I'm thinkin......

......and it's only 11:19 here. :msp_wink:


----------



## Walt41

Mastermind said:


> I'm thinkin......
> 
> ......and it's only 11:19 here. :msp_wink:



You have tons of time then, right now I'm making notes on tomorrows jobs and waiting for my heart meds to kick in so I can get a few hours sleep.


----------



## brian99574

Mastermind said:


> I put some rep on ya.....you was empty. :msp_thumbup:



sweet......awesome saw and some rep.....does it get any better?


----------



## Hedgerow

brian99574 said:


> sweet......awesome saw and some rep.....does it get any better?



Yup...
Another 10 million for good measure...


----------



## lly_duramax

I can't believe I found this on the 2nd page! I'm bumping it back up the so Randy can find it easy and maybe post another ported video with the strato intact.


----------



## origionalrebel

Randy needs to git to werkin. gonna have ta pop some more opcorn:


----------



## Mastermind

lly_duramax said:


> I can't believe I found this on the 2nd page! I'm bumping it back up the so Randy can find it easy and maybe post another ported video with the strato intact.



Working on porting that jug now......and cutting some squish bands.........and putting shipping labels on........and watching for FedEx.......and.......and......

:byebye:


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> Working on porting that jug now......and cutting some squish bands.........and putting shipping labels on........and watching for FedEx.......and.......and......
> 
> :byebye:



hey randy make'm wait post the vids tomorrow and you can sit back and watch the riot


----------



## Walt41

I agree on the 261 being a good work saw, I find it has become my "go to" saw for most of what I cut...and mine only has the stage "0" mods, including fresh gas, oil and a sharp chain.


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> Working on porting that jug now......and cutting some squish bands.........and putting shipping labels on........and watching for FedEx.......and.......and......
> 
> :byebye:



Sounds like you're whining:msp_angry:


----------



## Mastermind

old-cat said:


> Sounds like you're whining:msp_angry:



Having a blast.......I love what I do.


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> Having a blast.......I love what I do.



Tell me something I don't already know!


----------



## Mastermind

I had to stop on this the cut some squish bands on a couple of saws Jon is working on......finally back on the C model. 

I was glad for the time on the lathe......I got to think on my timing numbers for awhile longer. I don't think I use the same numbers in this saw as I do in the OE. Less exhaust I think.....


----------



## VinceGU05

Shouldn't this just port up like a 441c. It's all the same just a bigger saw. Or am I totally off the scent trail with that logic.


----------



## Ironworker

Mastermind said:


> Having a blast.......I love what I do.



If you love what you do you'll never work a day in your life. That's why I feel bad calling you, I feel like I'm taking you away from your work because you have no problem talking shop with me, when I know you have a ton of work.


----------



## mdavlee

VinceGU05 said:


> Shouldn't this just port up like a 441c. It's all the same just a bigger saw. Or am I totally off the scent trail with that logic.



441 is 2 barrel carb and 261 is a split single intake.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I had to stop on this the cut some squish bands on a couple of saws Jon is working on......finally back on the C model.
> 
> I was glad for the time on the lathe......I got to think on my timing numbers for awhile longer. I don't think I use the same numbers in this saw as I do in the OE. Less exhaust I think.....



Please expound on this thought...


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Please expound on this thought...



Well, I was thinking about how gutting the stratos surely increases the intake side of things pretty heavily. Sorta like putting on a bigger carb. That in itself may be allowing us the raise the exhaust in the OE higher than, say a 346xp, and allowing us to get away with it. 

I'd rather start out with higher compression, a nearly stock exhaust height, slightly raised and flattened transfer timing, and a lot more intake and strato timing, than we had from the factory. 

I'm almost done with the port work.....but still have some work to do on the intake tract.

I may not be making any cuts today.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Well, I was thinking about how gutting the stratos surely increases the intake side of things pretty heavily. Sorta like putting on a bigger carb. That in itself may be allowing us the raise the exhaust in the OE higher than, say a 346xp, and allowing us to get away with it.
> 
> I'd rather start out with higher compression, a nearly stock exhaust height, slightly raised and flattened transfer timing, and a lot more intake and strato timing, than we had from the factory.
> 
> I'm almost done with the port work.....but still have some work to do on the intake tract.
> 
> I may not be making any cuts today.



Knowing the M-Tronic will still be searching for the right RPM?
Not sure what it uses for inputs..:msp_confused:
I'm kinda curious to see how it turns out...


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Knowing the M-Tronic will still be searching for the right RPM?
> Not sure what it uses for inputs..:msp_confused:
> I'm kinda curious to see how it turns out...



I might be thinking wrong........but at least I'm thinking. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I might be thinking wrong........but at least I'm thinking. :msp_thumbup:



I like the track you're on... It's good to try and build on the designer's original intent...
Good torque and low fuel consumption...
If it don't work, you can always try something else...


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> I like the track you're on... It's good to try and build on the designer's original intent...
> Good torque and low fuel consumption...
> If it don't work, you can always try something else...



If we can keep the strato ports functional and manage to net a 30% increase I'll be very pleased.


----------



## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> I might be thinking wrong........but at least I'm thinking. :msp_thumbup:



Keep up the good work chimp!
View attachment 313097


----------



## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> Keep up the good work chimp!
> View attachment 313097



We still on for some trading? I ain't heard from ya in a bit.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> If we can keep the strato ports functional and manage to net a 30% increase I'll be very pleased.



Exactly... As would anyone who wanted to cut a lot of wood. Less trips to the gas can, and good mannered operation.
With a touch of attitude...


----------



## Joe Kidd

I haven't forgot. Still too much going on. I'm taking a week off the end of the month and maybe I can get that PH to you.


----------



## Mastermind

Joe Kidd said:


> I haven't forgot. Still too much going on. I'm taking a week off the end of the month and maybe I can get that PH to you.



Cool......I love trading and stuff.


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> If we can keep the strato ports functional and manage to net a 30% increase I'll be very pleased.



That's the one I would like to see a cutting time comparison with Jon's 026
same bar/chain for both


----------



## Mastermind

old-cat said:


> That's the one I would like to see a cutting time comparison with Jon's 026
> same bar/chain for both



Remember now we are building a worksaw here, ain't no workable 50cc saw gonna hang with that 026. :msp_wink:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Remember now we are building a worksaw here, ain't no workable 50cc saw gonna hang with that 026. :msp_wink:



If you're crafty enough, and Jon ain't lookin, it could...:msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

Welp, it's too dark for a video.......but I think we have a runner. :msp_wink:

I just made 6 - 8 cuts in a 10 X 10 and was real happy.


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> Welp, it's too dark for a video.......but I think we have a runner. :msp_wink:
> 
> I just made 6 - 8 cuts in a 10 X 10 and was real happy.



30% happy??????

:fingers-crossed:


----------



## Mastermind

LowVolt said:


> 30% happy??????
> 
> :fingers-crossed:



I'm not sure how it will look to the stopwatch, but I'm real pleased with the way it responded to the port work. 

I'll be porting my own exactly the same way.


----------



## Officer's Match

Hedgerow said:


> Exactly... As would anyone who wanted to cut a lot of wood. Less trips to the gas can, and good mannered operation.
> With a touch of attitude...



You just described my 441C. Exactly what I'd want in a 261C too.


----------



## Hedgerow

Officer's Match said:


> You just described my 441C. Exactly what I'd want in a 261C too.



That's the thing about a work saw... It don't have to be the absolute fastest... 
Just fast enough...
It should start well, and idle right...
It should have enough snot to run a size up bar in a pinch...
The throttle response should be crisp, and it should have enough torque to stop and start the chain in the middle of a cut after knocking a couple wedges...
It should have enough speed to move through a leaning tree easily, and run a chain you got the rakers a little too low on...

Oh, and sideways balance is a plus...:msp_wink:


----------



## Steve NW WI

Hedgerow said:


> That's the thing about a work saw... It don't have to be the absolute fastest...
> Just fast enough...
> It should start well, and idle right...
> It should have enough snot to run a size up bar in a pinch...
> The throttle response should be crisp, and it should have enough torque to stop and start the chain in the middle of a cut after knocking a couple wedges...
> It should have enough speed to move through a leaning tree easily, and run a chain you got the rakers a little too low on...
> 
> Oh, and sideways balance is a plus...:msp_wink:



Words of wisdom from a guy who's got a couple, along with the assorted Stihls and Huskies. oke:


----------



## Officer's Match

Hedgerow said:


> That's the thing about a work saw... It don't have to be the absolute fastest...
> Just fast enough...
> It should start well, and idle right...
> It should have enough snot to run a size up bar in a pinch...
> The throttle response should be crisp, and it should have enough torque to stop and start the chain in the middle of a cut after knocking a couple wedges...
> It should have enough speed to move through a leaning tree easily, and run a chain you got the rakers a little too low on...
> 
> Oh, and sideways balance is a plus...:msp_wink:



And having the best filtration available on a stock saw doesn't hurt either of the models mentioned either.


----------



## thomas1

Well, where's the vids?


----------



## fin460

*I'm about out of coffee*

The coffee has run dry, and I need to get out of the house and stop pacing around the computer waiting for a video.

Good luck, I hope the saw gets the gains you hope for.


----------



## deye223

give him a chance to wipe his butt and clean his teeth oops that won't take long (he's in Tennessee :msp_biggrin

so yeah wheres the vids


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Well, where's the vids?



Hold on, I'm still answering my emails, and messages. opcorn:


----------



## MCW

deye223 said:


> and clean his tooth



Fixed it for you Darren.


----------



## Mastermind

The video is uploading. I'm freakin blown away......the C-M started with a 17 second average. Now we are knocking cuts off that big chunk at 10.13 That's over a 41% increase....and a second faster than the OE, with the stratos gutted.


----------



## Mastermind

I think in this little shop we will end up seeing more of these on the bench than any other 50cc out there. They are incredible.


----------



## LowVolt

Not 30% but 40%!!!! Damn!

Did you run it with Jon's chain yet?


----------



## fin460

Great work again!


----------



## Mastermind

LowVolt said:


> Not 30% but 40%!!!! Damn!
> 
> Did you run it with Jon's chain yet?



Not yet........I'm gonna eat a bite then I will. I hope it don't beat Jon's 026. :msp_ohmy:


----------



## deye223

good work randy you cracked it i would love to see how long it runs on a tank


----------



## Mastermind

I put a lot of thought into porting this little bugger. I'm tempted to try this jug on the OE and see how it runs fully stratified. opcorn:


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> I put a lot of thought into porting this little bugger. I'm tempted to try this jug on the OE and see how it runs fully stratified. opcorn:



i was going to ask if you were going to test this ,this way ,but know you are busy ,didn't want you to feel pressured into it


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> i was going to ask if you were going to test this ,this way ,but know you are busy ,didn't want you to feel pressured into it



We've got a bunch of saws to do. But everyone that sends us a saw knows we have a heavy work load, and that the saw will be gone for awhile. I would hope that no one would send their only saw off to be ported anyway. I think we need to finish exploring this saw before we put it away and call it done.


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Little joker is screaming! I'm scared what it will do with a good square GTG chain on it...


----------



## Philip Wheelock

Mastermind said:


> ...the C-M started with a 17 second average. Now we are knocking cuts off that big chunk at 10.13 That's over a 41% increase....and a second faster than the OE, with the stratos gutted...



Whoa!  Looks like we're in 70cc territory here... :msp_w00t:


----------



## Scooterbum

Mastermind said:


> I've had the same saw for at least 15 years, an 028 av that I bought used. Back in the spring we somehow dropped a big pine on it, I was heartbroken, and felt sorta dumb. I bought a poulan and that really made me miss my stihl. I got to looking on ebay for parts to fix her, and in the process came upon this site, thanks for all the great info, by the way. In the last two weeks I've got all the parts I need to fix my 028, and I got me a 026 to play with. Thanks to all you guys and your hot rod saws I'm hooked. I bought a 025 Saturday, again I just couldn't help myself, my wife is so happy. I'm looking forward to posting some pics.
> 
> Randy



You've come a long way buddy !!!

Keep up the good work.


----------



## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> Little joker is screaming! I'm scared what it will do with a good square GTG chain on it...



We're fixing to see about that Jimmy. :msp_wink:

I also want to see if the tach will read on it in the cut. It sounds like it's holding crazy RPM.......


----------



## Mastermind

Scooterbum said:


> You've come a long way buddy !!!
> 
> Keep up the good work.



A lot has happened since that post Steve......that's for sure. That 026 I was talking about was the first saw I ported at. It was impressive to me at the time, but wouldn't be a blip on the radar today. :msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

Philip Wheelock said:


> Whoa!  Looks like we're in 70cc territory here... :msp_w00t:



I wonder what a stock 70cc saw would do in that cant......


----------



## cutforfun

Mastermind said:


> We're fixing to see about that Jimmy. :msp_wink:
> 
> I also want to see if the tach will read on it in the cut. It sounds like it's holding crazy RPM.......



Sounds like it is tuning "its self" to gain rpm's in the cut at about 3 seconds


----------



## Mastermind

cutforfun said:


> Sounds like it is tuning "its self" to gain rpm's in the cut at about 3 seconds



I've watched that video several times.........it's crazy ain't it?


----------



## Stihlman441

So correct me if im wrong,in the last vid we have.
261C
squish band done
woods ported
dual port muff
is it still stratto ?
is the timing stock ?.
full chisel chain round ground.
:smile2:


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Philip Wheelock said:


> Whoa!  Looks like we're in 70cc territory here... :msp_w00t:



70cc saws better run in the small stuff. Got my tail kicked running my Mastermind 372 by a ported 026 running Jon's chain in a can't race. I bet the same would happen here....that thing is strolling. The 026 I races held over 15k in the cut. 

Jimmy....mobile.


----------



## Philip Wheelock

Mastermind said:


> I wonder what a stock 70cc saw would do in that cant......



Well, all I can say is this just blew my 2-saw plan out of the water. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Just dawned on me...best part is you keep modding this thing and you haven't had to get the little orange screw driver out once!

Jimmy....mobile.


----------



## Mastermind

Stihlman441 said:


> So correct me if im wrong,in the last vid we have.
> 261C
> squish band done
> woods ported
> dual port muff
> is it still stratto ?
> is the timing stock ?.
> full chisel chain round ground.
> :smile2:



Squish band cut, woods ported, still a strato, timing untouched, full chisel round ground .325 chain. 

I've got a video uploading with a square chain.......it knocked a block off at 9.06. Nipping on the heels of Jon's finger ported, 044 carbed 026.


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> Squish band cut, woods ported, still a strato, timing untouched, full chisel round ground .325 chain.
> 
> I've got a video uploading with a square chain.......it knocked a block off at 9.06. Nipping on the heels of Jon's finger ported, 044 carbed 026.



Nipping at the heals with no tuning required ready to work all day with an air filter! Very nice!

Jimmy....mobile.


----------



## zogger

Mastermind said:


> Squish band cut, woods ported, still a strato, timing untouched, full chisel round ground .325 chain.
> 
> I've got a video uploading with a square chain.......it knocked a block off at 9.06. Nipping on the heels of Jon's finger ported, 044 carbed 026.



I am glad it is still strato. I just can't see the point of making a saw non strato, still millions out there that aren't strato to use/work on/mod. Strato is *neat* tech and should remain intact, IMO.


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Mastermind said:


> I wonder what a stock 70cc saw would do in that cant......



I'm sure you got one laying around the shop somewhere. It wouldn't represent "Apples to Apples",
but everyone here would love to see the video on that one.


----------



## Mastermind

Here she is with square chain. This chain needs some gullet work, there's still more to be had here.


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> I'm sure you got one laying around the shop somewhere. It wouldn't represent "Apples to Apples",
> but everyone here would love to see the video on that one.



I've got a few.......one that's muffler modded :msp_sneaky: and one that ain't.


----------



## thomas1

40%, whoda thunk it?


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> Here she is with square chain. This chain needs some gullet work, there's still more to be had here.
> 
> [video=youtube;odZJ_5sLySQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odZJ_5sLySQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]



Had it up then!


----------



## chadihman

Freakin awesome Randy. I'll buy a 261 cm. send me the final product and I'll do a dyno test on stock and yours. I'd really be interested to see were you have taken it to in dyno #'s. Please say yes please pretty please:msp_wub:


----------



## Mastermind

chadihman said:


> Freakin awesome Randy. I'll buy a 261 cm. send me the final product and I'll do a dyno test on stock and yours. I'd really be interested to see were you have taken it to in dyno #'s. Please say yes please pretty please:msp_wub:



Let's see how the 460 dyno pull turns out first. To send a saw out to be evaluated has left a bad taste in my mouth before.


----------



## Mastermind

Muffler Modded 372XT


----------



## Ironworker

Very nice work Randy, I am enjoying this tread and really learning and if that's my mm 372 I would leave to see it against the c m.


----------



## Mastermind

greyfox said:


> Very nice work Randy, I am enjoying this tread and really learning and if that's my mm 372 I would leave to see it against the c m.



I just posted a video of your muffler modded 372 in that same cant.


----------



## chadihman

I understand Randy. I have ported saws that had a one second gain in the cut and the hp was a noticeable change on the dyno. Your 261 is gonna blow our socks off with the dyno #'s for sure.


----------



## deye223

hey randy i just went back and watched the stock vid and man is it slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow haha

:lifter:



if i get one i'm gunna put radiation stickers on it


----------



## Mastermind

I'm gonna go ahead and port mine while I'm setup for it.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and port mine while I'm setup for it.



Good idea...
Bring it to KY...
Wiggs loves him some bologna saw...
He'll wanna run it for sure...:msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

chadihman said:


> I understand Randy. I have ported saws that had a one second gain in the cut and the hp was a noticeable change on the dyno. Your 261 is gonna blow our socks off with the dyno #'s for sure.



I hope you don't take what I said wrong.......but sometimes I feel like I have a target on my back.


----------



## blsnelling

Looks and sounds fantastic, Randy. Excellent work


----------



## Officer's Match

I think I'm getting hungry for some bologna...


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> I hope you don't take what I said wrong.......but sometimes I feel like I have a target on my back.



Maybe it's a laser dot:msp_w00t:You better duck!!!!!!


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Looks and sounds fantastic, Randy. Excellent work



I'm both surprised and elated at this point.


----------



## cutforfun

So what "stage" mod are you at on this saw randy:tongue2:


----------



## Mastermind

cutforfun said:


> So what "stage" mod are you at on this saw randy:tongue2:



The only one I do.......all or nothing.


----------



## Trx250r180

does the auto adjust carb stuff look adaptable to a 440 or 461 ?


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> does the auto adjust carb stuff look adaptable to a 440 or 461 ?



Anything is possible Brian, but I'd rather build on what's there on those saws.


----------



## thomas1

Would you say leaving the strato intact allows for a more optimal power curve?


----------



## mtrees

Looks great!!


Sent from my iPhone guaranteeing nothing.


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Would you say leaving the strato intact allows for a more optimal power curve?



This M-Tronic saw and the OE are two very different animals as far as I can see at this point. The M-Tronic system seems to be able to provide as much fuel as this thing needs even with the port work and the stratos intact. 

I'm not done yet though. I'm now porting my cylinder and will put it on the OE model to see how it fairs with this approach and the stratos intact. 

I've not ran this saw in a work setting at all yet, but I'm thinking it's gonna be a 50cc game changer.


----------



## Tnshaker

I have a stock 550 and a stock 261c. Although both are 50cc they are totally different saws. The 550 is an screamer that is super light and perfect for limbing. The 261c is like a little bigsaw:msp_wink:. I really want to have both ported. I was dead sent on comparing these 2 saws and then selling one. After using them I want to sell one cause it is like they are totally different saws in a different class although both are 50cc.


----------



## Tnshaker

I running 3/8 16" as bar on my 261c. Awesome work Randy. My 261c will be on the way to u if I make the final choice on to keep one or both.


----------



## Mastermind

Tnshaker said:


> I running 3/8 16" as bar on my 261c. Awesome work Randy. My 261c will be on the way to u if I make the final choice on to keep one or both.



I've got a few guys getting in line for these already.


----------



## SawTroll

Tnshaker said:


> I have a stock 550 and a stock 261c. Although both are 50cc they are totally different saws. The 550 is an screamer that is super light and perfect for limbing. The 261c is like a little bigsaw:msp_wink:. I really want to have both ported. I was dead sent on comparing these 2 saws and then selling one. After using them I want to sell one cause it is like they are totally different saws in a different class although both are 50cc.



Yes, the 261 simply isn't built like a 50cc saw should be! :msp_sneaky:

That is why the model never has interested me!


----------



## Walt41

SawTroll said:


> Yes, the 261 simply isn't built like a 50cc saw should be! :msp_sneaky:
> 
> That is why the model never has interested me!



How many tanks of gas have you put thru one?
I respect most of your opinions but sometimes you just need to get past the paper cuts of the reading material about a product and start getting callous on your hands from using it before you render a verdict.


----------



## Mastermind

SawTroll said:


> Yes, the 261 simply isn't built like a 50cc saw should be! :msp_sneaky:
> 
> That is why the model never has interested me!



I was wondering when you would show up my friend. 

This little saw is punching a few weight classes above it's displacement range anyway. I'd say there are loads of guys that will be very happy to own one. 

The 550XP is the best in class for a limbing saw IMHO, but when the wood gets larger it's gotta go back to the truck, this little monster will still be knocking off blocks with authority well into 20" wood.


----------



## Tnshaker

I do love how stihls are built. I would be willing to bet that if u weighed them with bar and chain that the 261c would be close to the euro 560 with small mount bar of the same.weight. actually the 550 is slightly lighter and handles a little better than a 346 in my hands.If u want to cut firewood with one saw a ported 261c would be hard to beat. For limbing the 550 is lighter for sure. For 2 saws it would be hard to beat a 550 for limbing and the old school 372 ported. I just want an old school (non x torque) 372 auto tune saw and I would not change my mind so much about saws.


----------



## moody

If I were limited to one saw to do all my firewood I wouldn't complain about the 261. I'm not to drink the kool aid but I like my Husqvarna stuff. But I've never been too good to give the better equipment for the job a cold shoulder. If you're a professional and speed is a factor then this conversation changes. Most of us cut firewood and any 50cc saw would get us by, but some get you by a little faster.


----------



## Unit44

Walt41 said:


> How many tanks of gas have you put thru one?
> I respect most of your opinions but sometimes you just need to get past the paper cuts of the reading material about a product and start getting callous on your hands from using it before you render a verdict.



Man, I wish I didn't have to see his posts, brings nothing to the forum but static..... :chatter:


----------



## Mastermind

Unit44 said:


> Man, I wish I didn't have to see his posts, brings nothing to the forum but static..... :chatter:



I like Niko myself.......he is consistent. You never see him reverse course.


----------



## SawTroll

Walt41 said:


> How many tanks of gas have you put thru one?
> I respect most of your opinions but sometimes you just need to get past the paper cuts of the reading material about a product and start getting callous on your hands from using it before you render a verdict.



I don't need to do that to determine that it doesn't handle as a 50cc saw should. This has nothing to do with "paper specs".

Anyway, my intension wasn't to derail the thread, so I will not comment further on this matter here.


----------



## Unit44

Mastermind said:


> I like Niko myself.......he is consistent. You never see him reverse course.



Might not reverse but constantly derails the train..... :biggrin:


----------



## nmurph

Unit44 said:


> Man, I wish I didn't have to see his posts, brings nothing to the forum but static..... :chatter:



Put him on your ignore list, I'm sure he won't mind.


----------



## LowVolt

Unit44 said:


> Man, I wish I didn't have to see his posts, brings nothing to the forum but static..... :chatter:



I disagree. He is a lightweight compared to some folks.

I can't wait to see this saw sporting jons chain with a fresh edge on it.


----------



## Walt41

Unit44 said:


> Man, I wish I didn't have to see his posts, brings nothing to the forum but static..... :chatter:



Sawtroll has forgotten more about saws than many of us will ever know about them in the first place, his only flaw is blind brand loyalty...I'm pretty sure if he was bleeding to death and found out that the needle to stitch him up was made by Stihl, he would refuse treatment. Perhaps a bad example seeing Husky is in the sewing business.
I for one enjoy his posts and agree with him 67.54 percent of the time.


----------



## Unit44

nmurph said:


> Put him on your ignore list, I'm sure he won't mind.



Yup, just figured out how to do that - now can continue with the AS forum commercial free! :msp_thumbsup:


----------



## Hedgerow

Unit44 said:


> Might not reverse but constantly derails the train..... :biggrin:



Just adding a little Norwegian flavor to it... 

261's are OK... 
What Randy was able to do with this one is real good...
Now GTG racing can be a little closer...
Same results maybe...
But at least a tick closer...


----------



## nmurph

SawTroll said:


> I don't need to do that to determine that it doesn't handle as a 50cc saw should. This has nothing to do with "paper specs".
> 
> Anyway, my intension wasn't to derail the thread, so I will not comment further on this matter here.





nmurph said:


> Put him on your ignore list, I'm sure he won't mind.





Unit44 said:


> Yup, just figured out how to do that - now can continue with the AS forum commercial free! :msp_thumbsup:



But the system is not perfect.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## wyk

Mastermind said:


> I was wondering when you would show up my friend.
> 
> This little saw is punching a few weight classes above it's displacement range anyway. I'd say there are loads of guys that will be very happy to own one.
> 
> The 550XP is the best in class for a limbing saw IMHO, but when the wood gets larger it's gotta go back to the truck, this little monster will still be knocking off blocks with authority well into 20" wood.



It better punch above it's weight, coz it can't complete with what's below it.

I hate to say it, but I am with Troll on this one(and this is just after telling him he was being a pain in the ass yesterday, and it also means you are right, too). The 261 handles like complete shizzola compared to about any other 50cc saw. If you're cutting cookies or logs, it's fine. But a 60 or 70cc saw will do that better unless you port the 261 to within an inch of it's life or like to run short bars and smallish wood. I used a 261 for limbing and small trees for one day and gave it back to the boss and used an ECHO instead. THAT'S how bad it is. A freakin ECHO, folks. Yes, it has power. But do I want to use it all day long for work? No way. Not when virtually every other 50cc saw handles so much better. 

A 50cc saw is for limbing and small trees. The 261 still can't do 'real' trees. It can't do limbing. So, from a professional point of view, it does neither well. It's not a limbing saw, and it's not a ground saw. So why bother? Get a proper limbing saw and a proper ground saw, and don't waste time with a 261 is sort of what I hear in Eruope. If I said to them "Yeah, but, uh...you only have to maybe spend another $300+ in porting and shipping and it can then be used as a ground saw" - they would laugh so hard their beer would spray out their noses like geysers. Then they'd go back to work with their 550's and 560's. 

The 261 is a competent saw. It's not a great saw. The 550 and the 346 hit the mark, and that is why they are the standard, and STIHL isn't when it comes to 50cc saws.


----------



## Mastermind

LowVolt said:


> I disagree. He is a lightweight compared to some folks.
> 
> I can't wait to see this saw sporting jons chain with a fresh edge on it.



This is it with a square ground chain Rory.


----------



## lly_duramax

Wow... Lookin good Randy! That thing is strong but I don't believe I'll get rid of my 346XP yet. You are going to be swamped after everyone watches that last video.


----------



## Mastermind

lly_duramax said:


> Wow... Lookin good Randy! That thing is strong but I don't believe I'll get rid of my 346XP yet. You are going to be swamped after everyone watches that last video.



But I'm already swamped. :msp_mellow:


----------



## SawTroll

Mastermind said:


> I like Niko myself.......he is consistent. You never see him reverse course.



It actually has happened, but it seldom happens fast!


----------



## lly_duramax

You do awesome work and stand behind it. That's why you're swamped. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> This is it with a square ground chain Rory.
> 
> [video=youtube;odZJ_5sLySQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odZJ_5sLySQ[/video]



Damn them chips are flyin!

what is the percentage gained with jons chain?


----------



## Mastermind

LowVolt said:


> Damn them chips are flyin!
> 
> what is the percentage gained with jons chain?



It gain a little over 18% with this chain after port work. 

What really blows my mind is total gains. From the time we started with the round ground chain and the saw bone stock, to this last video, the cut times are around 60% faster.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> But I'm already swamped. :msp_mellow:



Well? Tell Tom to stop sending "saws in a box"...


----------



## thomas1

Hedgerow said:


> Well? Tell Tom to stop sending "saws in a box"...



Don't be mad just cuz you don't gots a t-shirt.


----------



## SawTroll

Walt41 said:


> Sawtroll has forgotten more about saws than many of us will ever know about them in the first place, his only flaw *is blind brand loyalty*...I'm pretty sure if he was bleeding to death and found out that the needle to stitch him up was made by Stihl, he would refuse treatment. Perhaps a bad example seeing Husky is in the sewing business.
> I for one enjoy his posts and agree with him 67.54 percent of the time.



I am not brand loyal at all really - I judge the saws by how they are (and are not), and not by which brand they are.

What you see in my posts is just a result of that! :msp_smile:


----------



## Hedgerow

thomas1 said:


> Don't be mad just cuz you don't gots a t-shirt.



Hmmmm....

Box of saw guts sent to TN = t-shirt

:msp_thumbup:


----------



## H 2 H

SawTroll said:


> I am not brand loyal at all really - I judge the saws by how they are (and are not), and not by which brand they are.
> 
> What you see in my posts is just a result of that! :msp_smile:



LOL; you judge saw's by the picture you see on the internet :cool2:


----------



## thomas1

Hedgerow said:


> Hmmmm....
> 
> Box of saw guts sent to TN = t-shirt
> 
> :msp_thumbup:



My plan has finally been initiated. :devil:


----------



## Hedgerow

thomas1 said:


> My plan has finally been initiated. :devil:



..:hell_boy:


----------



## STIHLMIKE

here is a question from a newbie, and sorry if it is a stupid one,

When you make this saw run like that does it speed up the rpms significantly? It sounds as though it does.

What does this do to the oiler? If it is ran from the same shaft as the chain does it not increase the oil flow as well. I imagine you would need quite a bit of oil on a chain cutting that fast but just an iquisitive thought I had.


----------



## showrguy

i like this thread..
for several reasons !!

nice job there, Dr. Evans ..


----------



## Mastermind

STIHLMIKE said:


> here is a question from a newbie, and sorry if it is a stupid one,
> 
> When you make this saw run like that does it speed up the rpms significantly? It sounds as though it does.
> 
> What does this do to the oiler? If it is ran from the same shaft as the chain does it not increase the oil flow as well. I imagine you would need quite a bit of oil on a chain cutting that fast but just an iquisitive thought I had.



The unloaded RPM really isn't any faster than when the saw was stock, it just holds a higher RPM while cutting.


----------



## Officer's Match

Mastermind said:


> The unloaded RPM really isn't any faster than when the saw was stock, it just holds a higher RPM while cutting.



Furthermore the oil will flow proportionately with the chain.


----------



## super3

SawTroll said:


> I don't need to do that to determine that it doesn't handle as a 50cc saw should.




The 5100 doesn't handle real well in the tops either.



Nice work Randy!!!:msp_thumbup::msp_thumbup::msp_thumbup:


----------



## ernurse

This thread is really sparking my interest in a newer (than my 28super) 50cc saw. Nice job Really wish I still had my 5100s.


----------



## H 2 H

Walt41 said:


> How many tanks of gas have you put thru one?
> I respect most of your opinions but sometimes you just need to get past the paper cuts of the reading material about a product and start getting callous on your hands from using it before you render a verdict.





SawTroll said:


> I don't need to do that to determine that it doesn't handle as a 50cc saw should. This has nothing to do with "paper specs".
> 
> Anyway, my intension wasn't to derail the thread, so I will not comment further on this matter here.





Unit44 said:


> Might not reverse but constantly derails the train..... :biggrin:



ST in your quote above you forgot about looking at pictures on the internet of chain saws in your quote :msp_ohmy:


It's a thread about a Stihl chain saw; ST is about to derail it like normal :msp_ohmy:


----------



## H 2 H

[SUB][/SUB]


Walt41 said:


> How many tanks of gas have you put thru one?
> I respect most of your opinions but sometimes you just need to get past the paper cuts of the reading material about a product and start getting callous on your hands from using it before you render a verdict.





SawTroll said:


> I don't need to do that to determine that it doesn't handle as a 50cc saw should. This has nothing to do with "paper specs".
> 
> Anyway, my intension wasn't to derail the thread, so I will not comment further on this matter here.





Unit44 said:


> Might not reverse but constantly derails the train..... :biggrin:



ST in your quote above you forgot about looking at pictures on the internet of chain saws :msp_ohmy:


It's a thread about a Stihl chain saw; ST is about to derail it like normal :msp_ohmy:


----------



## Mastermind

H 2 H said:


> ST in your quote above you forgot about looking at pictures on the internet of chain saws in your quote :msp_ohmy:
> 
> 
> It's a thread about a Stihl chain saw; ST is about to derail it like normal :msp_ohmy:





H 2 H said:


> [SUB][/SUB]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ST in your quote above you forgot about looking at pictures on the internet of chain saws :msp_ohmy:
> 
> 
> It's a thread about a Stihl chain saw; ST is about to derail it like normal :msp_ohmy:



If you don't mind please delete these posts. This thread ain't about SawTroll.


----------



## hotjava66

Tnshaker said:


> For 2 saws it would be hard to beat a 550 for limbing and the old school 372 ported. I just want an old school (non x torque) 372 auto tune saw and I would not change my mind so much about saws.



This is exactly what I am running right now, and it works perfect. Today was the first real cutting I have done with the 550(recently done by Mastermind). Saw is a dream for limbing and blocking up stuff to the 10" or so range(hardwood). It is a real ripper, fast as lightning and will cut bigger but not at the speed I am used to. After that the 372xp came out and did the rest, was a perfect combo for the wood I was cutting. Now just need a ported 390xp for the BIG stuff.

Now back on topic that 261 is bad @ss. If a guy was looking for one saw to do everything with that is it in spades. Mastermind does some impressive work.


----------



## mdavlee

Randy the saw is looking good. I may finally break down and buy the best 50cc saw out there.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> Randy the saw is looking good. I may finally break down and buy the best 50cc saw out there.



A 5100???


----------



## mdavlee

Hedgerow said:


> A 5100???



Nope 261. It can run the same bars and chains as the big boys.


----------



## john_bud

Wow! Great progress on turning a really good saw into an even better one.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> Nope 261. It can run the same bars and chains as the big boys.



Yeah... 
I suppose...
But how do they bounce??....
5100's bounce great...


----------



## mdavlee

Not sure. I never dropped roll tides. I did run 2 tanks through it that day after I ran the 461s out of mix.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> Not sure. I never dropped roll tides. I did run 2 tanks through it that day after I ran the 461s out of mix.



Well a good 50 has to be able to bounce good...
Cause they got small felling spikes on em'... And they don't hook into the tool box on the fender of the tractor very well..
Thus, they tumble and get wiped off there quite a bit...
The 5100's have good handle side down balance, and they bounce nicely...
The 028 just freaking broke... got duct tape now...
:msp_thumbup:


----------



## john_bud

Simple question.. I know porting increases power, fattens up the torque for more speed in the cut at the cost of increased fuel consumption. But, this one is STILL a strato. So how is the fuel use ? Is it proportional to the change in cut times (40% ish) or ? 

Would be intetesting to compare to a stock saw.


----------



## Mastermind

john_bud said:


> Simple question.. I know porting increases power, fattens up the torque for more speed in the cut at the cost of increased fuel consumption. But, this one is STILL a strato. So how is the fuel use ? Is it proportional to the change in cut times (40% ish) or ?
> 
> Would be intetesting to compare to a stock saw.



Time will tell John. I have one of my own that I'm porting now. I'm sure we hurt fuel economy.....how much I can't say.


----------



## Tnshaker

I think Randy's 261c has bridged the gap enough that it has made the 362 even less appealing. If u need more saw than this 261c than u need at least a 441c. I was not a fan of the 362 anyway. Randy really seems to know just what these m tronic saws need.


----------



## weedkilla

Congratulations! Looks like a great saw, I had often thought that a 261 was just too close in weight to the recent husky 60cc saws to bother with. BUT - they do have a nice feel, that mini big saw thing is easy to like. 
With that sort of newfound grunt I've got to wonder if they could take the spots of both the 50 & 60cc saws in the shed.


----------



## thomas1

Tnshaker said:


> Randy really seems to know just what these m tronic saws need.



Well, to be fair Randy didn't come to these conclusions without input from some very helpful people. Blazin was instrumental in the final porting.

Here's a pic of Blazin surveying where he can improve the strato port.


----------



## thomas1

Randy, what's your 261C vs. 359 opinion?


----------



## Joe Kidd

Tnshaker said:


> I think Randy's 261c has bridged the gap enough that it has made the 362 even less appealing. If u need more saw than this 261c than u need at least a 441c. I was not a fan of the 362 anyway. Randy really seems to know just what these m tronic saws need.



It definitely doesn't have the filtration issues the 362 has. :bang:


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Randy, what's your 261C vs. 359 opinion?



I dunno. What's a 359? :msp_tongue:


----------



## Mastermind

It's too dark for a video.....but I put the jug I ported for my own saw with the stratos intact on the OE and it's a little faster than the M-Tronic. I just knocked a cut off at 8.66. :bang:


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> It's too dark for a video.....but I put the jug I ported for my own saw with the stratos intact on the OE and it's a little faster than the M-Tronic. I just knocked a cut off at 8.66. :bang:



You may have built a better mousetrap.


----------



## Officer's Match

thomas1 said:


> You may have built a better mousetrap.



May?? As in the earth "may" be spherical?


----------



## Hedgerow

thomas1 said:


> You may have built a better mousetrap.



That... 
Or Jon is messing with him and made the cant smaller when randy wasn't looking...


----------



## thomas1

Officer's Match said:


> May?? As in the earth "may" be spherical?



Even after seeing these results there are people that will say power can't be made without gutting the strato system. Much like they said the m-tronic system couldn't feed a ported engine.

I like pie. Humble.


----------



## thomas1

Hedgerow said:


> That...
> Or Jon is messing with him and made the cant smaller when randy wasn't looking...



Jon's working, he doesn't have time for shenanigans like Moobs does.


----------



## bryanr2

Mastermind said:


> I dunno. What's a 359? :msp_tongue:



 The one I kept 2 of after you talked me into a 562. :hmm3grin2orange: :jester:


----------



## SawTroll

super3 said:


> The 5100 doesn't handle real well in the tops either.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice work Randy!!!:msp_thumbup::msp_thumbup::msp_thumbup:



My 5100 soon was retiered from any use in the woods, and I'm sure a 261 also would have been, if I had one. 

Btw, there was zero price change when they replaced the 346 with the 550 here. The 261 cost a lot less - it just doesn't help.


----------



## Schneider

Randy, great thread. 40% improvement wow!


----------



## SawTroll

Mastermind said:


> I dunno. What's a 359? :msp_tongue:



Some other saw that I wouldn't want....


----------



## bryanr2

SawTroll said:


> Some other saw that I wouldn't want....



:monkey: 

Niko- I agree with most everything you post..... but this here is just bollocks. I think they are fantastic saws and I use them more than any other saw I have.


----------



## Scooterbum

bryanr2 said:


> :monkey:
> 
> Niko- I agree with most everything you post..... but this here is just bollocks. I think they are fantastic saws and I use them more than any other saw I have.



Shoot what he likes and what you like and for that fact the guy over the hill likes. It's all apples and oranges. I still like to get all the ol' homies out for a day of cuttin'(XL12,C72,1130G) all because I like them. One day I'll do a Husky lineup and the next Stihl.
It's all good.


----------



## bryanr2

I did just buy me a Stihl.


----------



## Walt41

I'm definitely impressed with the overall gains that have been produced with your HTG on this saw!

HTG= Headscratching Thinking Grinding

I need to learn to square file all my chains!


----------



## SawTroll

bryanr2 said:


> :monkey:
> 
> Niko- I agree with most everything you post..... but this here is just bollocks. I think they are fantastic saws and I use them more than any other saw I have.



They can be, when properly modified, but they surely aren't when stock.


----------



## weedkilla

SawTroll said:


> Some other saw that I wouldn't want....




I have both a 359 and a 562. I struggle to see one as the best thing as sliced bread and the other as a dog. Both have their pluses and minuses. 
I can see the 359 being replaced with a 261c though.....


----------



## tree monkey

saw troll is a trolling and you boys are a bitting:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Betts04

How do the new saws compare when in stock form? I would like to add a 550xp or a 261cm but I will likely never have the funds to port either of them. I just want something smaller than the 038 to carry on the atv


----------



## Mastermind

Betts04 said:


> How do the new saws compare when in stock form? I would like to add a 550xp or a 261cm but I will likely never have the funds to port either of them. I just want something smaller than the 038 to carry on the atv



Someone that has some serious run time on them would have to chime in here. I don't run saws nearly as much as I work on them.


----------



## john_bud

Mastermind said:


> It's too dark for a video.....but I put the jug I ported for my own saw with the stratos intact on the OE and it's a little faster than the M-Tronic. I just knocked a cut off at 8.66. :bang:



Way cool. A little surprizing there is much difference. Are the flow rates of the 2 carbs identical or is the old school larger?


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> It's too dark for a video.....but I put the jug I ported for my own saw with the stratos intact on the OE and it's a little faster than the M-Tronic. I just knocked a cut off at 8.66. :bang:



can you do it tomorrow :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Mastermind

john_bud said:


> Way cool. A little surprizing there is much difference. Are the flow rates of the 2 carbs identical or is the old school larger?



The carbs appear to be the same size. 



deye223 said:


> can you do it tomorrow :msp_thumbup:



I will. This is a game changer for me, and the way I port either of these saws Darren.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> Let's see how the 460 dyno pull turns out first. To send a saw out to be evaluated has left a bad taste in my mouth before.



Bad taste in your mouth? Chimps eat their own poop don't they?


----------



## Mastermind

KenJax Tree said:


> Bad taste in your mouth? Chimps eat their own poop don't they?



Nope, we sling it at guys from Michigan.


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> The carbs appear to be the same size.
> 
> 
> 
> I will. This is a game changer for me, and the way I port either of these saws Darren.



i think you know what i'm thinking :msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

deye223 said:


> i think you know what i'm thinking :msp_wink:



I just hope I don't end up redoing every one I've done.


----------



## KenJax Tree

Mastermind said:


> Nope, we sling it at guys from Michigan.



:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Rudolf73

Mastermind said:


> I just hope I don't end up redoing every one I've done.



Not to worry Randy, we'll just buy some more, the more saws the merrier! :msp_biggrin:

May have to add one to my Christmas wish list now


----------



## Mastermind

I'm going to bed. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## Trx250r180

So is it cool to have a little orange screwdriver again ?


----------



## wigglesworth

Trx250r180 said:


> So is it cool to have a little orange screwdriver again ?



Your only cool if you never put it down.


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> I just hope I don't end up redoing every one I've done.



she'll be right mate i'll order a jug and the other bits it needs.


----------



## VinceGU05

reindeer said:


> It better punch above it's weight, coz it can't complete with what's below it.
> 
> I hate to say it, but I am with Troll on this one(and this is just after telling him he was being a pain in the ass yesterday, and it also means you are right, too). The 261 handles like complete shizzola compared to about any other 50cc saw. If you're cutting cookies or logs, it's fine. But a 60 or 70cc saw will do that better unless you port the 261 to within an inch of it's life or like to run short bars and smallish wood. I used a 261 for limbing and small trees for one day and gave it back to the boss and used an ECHO instead. THAT'S how bad it is. A freakin ECHO, folks. Yes, it has power. But do I want to use it all day long for work? No way. Not when virtually every other 50cc saw handles so much better.
> 
> A 50cc saw is for limbing and small trees. The 261 still can't do 'real' trees. It can't do limbing. So, from a professional point of view, it does neither well. It's not a limbing saw, and it's not a ground saw. So why bother? Get a proper limbing saw and a proper ground saw, and don't waste time with a 261 is sort of what I hear in Eruope. If I said to them "Yeah, but, uh...you only have to maybe spend another $300+ in porting and shipping and it can then be used as a ground saw" - they would laugh so hard their beer would spray out their noses like geysers. Then they'd go back to work with their 550's and 560's.
> 
> The 261 is a competent saw. It's not a great saw. The 550 and the 346 hit the mark, and that is why they are the standard, and STIHL isn't when it comes to 50cc saws.



can u give us dumb ass rookies an idea (in detail) of what a great handling saw as apposed to a crap one is?

i look on specs and the 550 has 700grams in its favor over the 261 say 13% roughly. other than that??!?


----------



## TreePointer

VinceGU05 said:


> can u give us dumb ass rookies an idea (in detail) of what a great handling saw as apposed to a crap one is?
> 
> i look on specs and the 550 has 700grams in its favor over the 261 say 13% roughly. other than that??!?



IMO, how the complete package feels when you operate it, mostly focusing on control. Balance (front to back, side to side), throttle response, chain speed, overall weight, comfort (antivibe) all play a part. In other words, how easy it is to get the saw to do what you want when you want to do it. See video:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-bEv2wygfqA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Crap? Try that with a Stihl 290.


----------



## lly_duramax

TreePointer said:


> IMO, how the complete package feels when you operate it, mostly focusing on control. Balance (front to back, side to side), throttle response, chain speed, overall weight, comfort (antivibe) all play a part. In other words, how easy it is to get the saw to do what you want when you want to do it. See video:
> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-bEv2wygfqA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> 
> Crap? Try that with a Stihl 290.



I've seen that done before (on youtube) but wow! I have never been in that big a hurry to limb a tree. They have more PPE on than the first astronauts to land on the moon.


----------



## MCW

VinceGU05 said:


> can u give us dumb ass rookies an idea (in detail) of what a great handling saw as apposed to a crap one is?
> 
> i look on specs and the 550 has 700grams in its favor over the 261 say 13% roughly. other than that??!?



Balance is very subjective. If you wear a Stihl cap you'll always downplay somebody's comments on Husky's superior balance just like a one eyed Husky supporter will make a big deal out of Husky's balance.
If you come into it with no bias and run both a heap of 50cc saws in a limbing, falling type scenario it becomes quite evident that the MS261 is a porky little saw compared to a 346/353/550 whereas the older 026/MS260 handled more like the Huskys with similar engine characteristics. I've run a heap of different 50cc saws falling/limbing small trees.
The 261's are a great saw though but it seems like Stihl has tried to downsize an MS880 into a 50cc package.
The M-Tronic version may very well fix a few of the standard MS261's throttle response issues.
There is no question that if you like nimble saws and throw them around in a whole heap of different situations (as opposed to just cutting firewood) the 550XP is the pick for me. If you wear a Stihl cap and do a comparo with a heap of subconcious bias you'll still pick the 261 over the Husky but either way you can't go wrong in my opinion. They are both good saws.
The MS261 scores a few points in a few areas over the 550XP and vice versa.


----------



## VinceGU05

MCW said:


> Balance is very subjective. If you wear a Stihl cap you'll always downplay somebody's comments on Husky's superior balance just like a one eyed Husky supporter will make a big deal out of Husky's balance.
> If you come into it with no bias and run both a heap of 50cc saws in a limbing, falling type scenario it becomes quite evident that the MS261 is a porky little saw compared to a 346/353/550 whereas the older 026/MS260 handled more like the Huskys with similar engine characteristics. I've run a heap of different 50cc saws falling/limbing small trees.
> The 261's are a great saw though but it seems like Stihl has tried to downsize an MS880 into a 50cc package.
> The M-Tronic version may very well fix a few of the standard MS261's throttle response issues.
> There is no question that if you like nimble saws and throw them around in a whole heap of different situations (as opposed to just cutting firewood) the 550XP is the pick for me. If you wear a Stihl cap and do a comparo with a heap of subconcious bias you'll still pick the 261 over the Husky but either way you can't go wrong in my opinion. They are both good saws.
> The MS261 scores a few points in a few areas over the 550XP and vice versa.



So thinking like a European (cause I am half wog) they have made this like u said a little big saw. Knowing they love small capacity motors. Saws or cars. 
Unlike our US buddies seem to love " no substitute for cubic capacity " themes. 
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ( just look at our truck/ute capacities. )
In that video clip it looks like they are using ms170's of course they will handle better that a 290. 
But one pound difference that noticeable ?


----------



## fin460

I know your cant has to be getting short, (short wood), but I would like to see a video of the saw you ran in the dark last night at 8.66 secs.

please and thank you


----------



## Mastermind

Weeding thru the emails.......

Video soon. opcorn:


----------



## MCW

VinceGU05 said:


> But one pound difference that noticeable ?



One pound is definitely noticeable but only if it's in the wrong spot.
For example I can throw my Husky 390XP around all day and not notice any extra fatigue against my 7900's despite it being heavier on the scales. The 390XP's balance beautifully.
A few years ago I used to argue against Sawtroll saying that only a weakling will notice a few hundred grams in a saw but that is a simple analogy. After limbing and falling 1000's and 1000's of smaller trees (6-16") with a Husky 353, 261, 5100-S, 026, MS241C, and 550XP I can positively put the 261 in last place for feel and balance but the difference isn't large enough to mean it's useless, just less preferable. The excellent filter and ability to fit a good set of dual spikes means it is still a handy saw. Out of the above 6 saws I'd rate the 353 the best for feel and balance, followed by the 550XP and 241C in equal second place, and 5100-S/026 equal 3rd.


----------



## Trailtrimmer

Mastermind said:


> This M-Tronic saw and the OE are two very different animals as far as I can see at this point. The M-Tronic system seems to be able to provide as much fuel as this thing needs even with the port work and the stratos intact.



I think you hit the right formula. By not getting too crazy with your mods the M-tronic system can still properly tune and the timing is preserved. If you were to start getting silly with crazy timing and de-stratification it may be outside of what the computer can properly tune for. 

When I used to tinker with cars we'd have to do all kinds of things to trick the engine computer once we hit a certain threshold of mods as it would start to fight us rather than work for us. Keeping just below hat threshold usually gave nice gains and kept the car very street-able. Once you were doing piggy back computers or full ECU replacements the power would climb, but the ease of use would drop off and the tinkering would go up.

Nice work!


----------



## Philip Wheelock

VinceGU05 said:


> ...a great handling saw as apposed to a crap one is?...



Handling becomes most significant in limbing, IMO. Limbing is slow, dangerous (stumbling, slipping and tripping over wood; kickback) and a general PITA. Light weight, an outboard clutch to keep the chain closer to the lateral centerline, crisp throttle response, and a bar/chain length that balances evenly front/back. You can see why our Norwegian friend is so fond of a certain saw brand.

Back to the main topic: these 261 mods are likely to deliver a saw weighing significantly less than 60cc saws, and can comfortably pull a 20" pitch bar w/ .375 pitch chain in hardwood. Here's where you start to think, "game changer".


----------



## Officer's Match

Philip Wheelock said:


> Handling becomes most significant in limbing, IMO. Limbing is slow, dangerous (stumbling, slipping and tripping over wood; kickback) and a general PITA. Light weight, an outboard clutch to keep the chain closer to the lateral centerline, crisp throttle response, and a bar/chain length that balances evenly front/back. You can see why our Norwegian friend is so fond of a certain saw brand.
> 
> Back to the main topic: these 261 mods are likely to deliver a 50cc saw weighing significantly less than 60cc saws that can comfortably pull a 20" pitch bar w/ .375 pitch chain in hardwood. Here's where you start to think, "game changer".



I agree. For the mix of cutting I do, I actually prefer the benefits an inboard clutch offers in spite of the balance trade off. I have had extremely positive experience with Stihl's M-Tronic, and like other characteristics of the 261 such as it's excellent filtration (also like my 441C) and it's captive bar nuts. I too was thinking 3/8's pitch (but more like 18") so I could carry a few extra of the same file in the place where the orange screwdriver woulda' been.


----------



## mdavlee

A 50cc saw is tiny any way. I prefer to cut with a 28' bar so there's no bending over so when a 50cc will pull semi skip on a 28" I'm in.


----------



## Trx250r180

mdavlee said:


> A 50cc saw is tiny any way. I prefer to cut with a 28' bar so there's no bending over so when a 50cc will pull semi skip on a 28" I'm in.




View attachment 313336


all this saw has is an early carb with hi-lo adj ,and a triple port muffler ,i don't bury the bar ,but it cuts 12 inch rounds and limbs fine ,it has full comp square chain too ,with the light bar it balances similar to a 3/8 es bar ,i don't like to bend over cutting either


----------



## Mastermind

After this piece of crap computer crashing three times I finally got it uploaded.

Fully stratified OE MS261


----------



## Trx250r180

saw sounds pretty happy


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> saw sounds pretty happy



I won't be gutting anymore of them.


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> After this piece of crap computer crashing three times I finally got it uploaded.
> 
> Fully stratified OE MS261
> 
> [video=youtube;UsoVAEnT6Dc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsoVAEnT6Dc[/video]



Having muscle spasms in your trigger finger? :confused2:


----------



## Mastermind

TK said:


> Having muscle spasms in your trigger finger? :confused2:



Practicing muh blipping skills. :msp_smile:


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> After this piece of crap computer crashing three times I finally got it uploaded.
> 
> Fully stratified OE MS261
> 
> [video=youtube;UsoVAEnT6Dc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsoVAEnT6Dc[/video]



It felt so good you wanted to do another didn't you?!


----------



## thomas1

Can you make a video of you just revving the snot out of the saw? Preferably with no wood in sight.

Thanks.


----------



## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> It felt so good you wanted to do another didn't you?!



This one ain't an M-Tronic Jimmy.


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Can you make a video of you just revving the snot out of the saw? Preferably with no wood in sight.
> 
> Thanks.



No. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> Practicing muh blipping skills. :msp_smile:



Practice more. I was afraid you needed medical attention :msp_scared:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> No. :msp_sneaky:



Now that you got that nice Poplar cant there, throw another saw in it for fun... Like say.......
A 562....
Or maybe a John Deere...
:monkey:


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Now that you got that nice Poplar cant there, throw another saw in it for fun... Like say.......
> A 562....
> Or maybe a John Deere...
> :monkey:



The Deere Ain't ever been fueled up......I reckon I'll leave it that way for now. I ain't got a 562 here......and I need what's leave of that cant to play catch up with this jug that's already gutted.


----------



## Jimmy in NC

Mastermind said:


> This one ain't an M-Tronic Jimmy.



I know it's not the electronic.. but you went for another cut.. then backed up. You were having fun there.


----------



## Mastermind

Jimmy in NC said:


> I know it's not the electronic.. but you went for another cut.. then backed up. You were having fun there.



I see. I wanted a couple more.......gotta save my wood now though.


----------



## Trx250r180

well at least you will have a bunch of nice parkay flooring with all those square cookies


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> The Deere Ain't ever been fueled up......I reckon I'll leave it that way for now. I ain't got a 562 here......and I need what's leave of that cant to play catch up with this jug that's already gutted.



One of these days the Fed Ex truck is gonna show up at your place with a skid of Hedge cants....
Tell Jon they're yellow Pine or Mulberry or something...


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> I see. I wanted a couple more.......gotta save my wood now though.



Not surprising, at your age.


----------



## Mastermind

thomas1 said:


> Not surprising, at your age.


----------



## Majorpayne

Mastermind said:


> They were probably switching over to the trimmed version Brad......try it now.



As soon as my post showed, I clicked on it and it worked. I deleted my post, hoping no one saw it. You are quick.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> After this piece of crap computer crashing three times I finally got it uploaded.
> 
> Fully stratified OE MS261
> 
> [video=youtube;UsoVAEnT6Dc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsoVAEnT6Dc[/video]



Now you've really got my attention. That's fantastic! So what's the trick?


----------



## Mastermind

I need a cylinder for my saw now. I'm just gonna leave my jug on the OE and send it out. Knowing what I do now......I can't send it gutted.


----------



## Mastermind

blsnelling said:


> Now you've really got my attention. That's fantastic! So what's the trick?



I wish I had a good answer Brad. I just ported it like I would any other strato saw. 

I've learned a bunch since I did my first one I reckon.


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> I wish I had a good answer Brad. I just ported it like I would any other strato saw.
> 
> I've learned a bunch since I did my first one I reckon.



It's your NAME, silly!


----------



## cowroy

Does it have .325 stock chain back on it in the last video?


----------



## Mastermind

cowroy said:


> Does it have .325 stock chain back on it in the last video?



No it's running square ground. But that ain't a race chain......just a converted chain. With some great angles evidently. 

The OE is about a .5 second faster than the M-Tronic. Both fully statified. Both running that same bar and chain. I figure the timing advance might give the edge to the OE.


----------



## origionalrebel

Randy, since you got all this new information in your masterbrain now, do you think you could get anywhere near the same gains on a 362 as the 261?


----------



## Mastermind

origionalrebel said:


> Randy, since you got all this new information in your masterbrain now, do you think you could get anywhere near the same gains on a 362 as the 261?



I get really good gains on the 362.


----------



## origionalrebel

Mastermind said:


> I get really good gains on the 362.




jus may have to let you monkey with one after i get the cuttin done this year.


----------



## CRE1992

Oh Thanks Randy... :msp_scared: that I have seen this, I am contemplating sending you my 261 now.  

And maybe my 440 with a 046 cylinder and piston to make a hybrid.... :bang:

You sure know how to make someones extra cash burn a hole in their pocket... :msp_sneaky:


----------



## thinkrtinker

Excellent thread and very well documented with videos.
Thanks for spending the time and effort.
I look forward to your next experiment


----------



## Officer's Match

CRE1992 said:


> Oh Thanks Randy... :msp_scared: that I have seen this, I am contemplating sending you my 261 now.
> 
> And maybe my 440 with a 046 cylinder and piston to make a hybrid.... :bang:
> 
> You sure know how to make someones extra cash burn a hole in their pocket... :msp_sneaky:



Ahh, just let it pass - chainsaws are just a fad.


----------



## Mastermind

Officer's Match said:


> Ahh, just let it pass - chainsaws are just a fad.



I've said that for years now. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## chadihman

Mastermind said:


> I need a cylinder for my saw now. I'm just gonna leave my jug on the OE and send it out. Knowing what I do now......I can't send it gutted.



I could probably help you out with a cylinder


----------



## Termite

I've got a 5.4 Liter Ford in the shop with five broken spark plugs and I've been sitting here for an hour and a half reading this thread !!!


----------



## john_bud

Officer's Match said:


> Ahh, just let it pass - chainsaws are just a fad.



If the price of gas rockets up due to our POTUS, we may go to hybred 10 speed bike powered saws! 



Or not


----------



## fastLeo151

D


Termite said:


> I've got a 5.4 Liter Ford in the shop with five broken spark plugs and I've been sitting here for an hour and a half reading this thread !!!



Got to love 3 valve 5.4 engines


----------



## chadihman

Termite said:


> I've got a 5.4 Liter Ford in the shop with five broken spark plugs and I've been sitting here for an hour and a half reading this thread !!!



Ford 5.4 is known for spark plug issues. Freaking heads are junk. Ford


----------



## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> But I'm already swamped. :msp_mellow:



And as you've already mentioned if not careful your wife will cut off your cant for good!


----------



## wap13

CRE1992 said:


> Oh Thanks Randy... :msp_scared: that I have seen this, I am contemplating sending you my 261 now.
> 
> And maybe my 440 with a 046 cylinder and piston to make a hybrid.... :bang:
> 
> You sure know how to make someones extra cash burn a hole in their pocket... :msp_sneaky:



Cant speak for the 440/046 but you will not be disappointed with a masterminded 261. He did one for me a couple months ago and I am always impressed with how strong it is. It impresses me more than my ported 372.

Was considering getting a 261cm but if the OE is still as strong I guess there is no need....


----------



## cutforfun

wap13 said:


> Cant speak for the 440/046 but you will not be disappointed with a masterminded 261. He did one for me a couple months ago and I am always impressed with how strong it is. It impresses me more than my ported 372.
> 
> Was considering getting a 261cm but if the OE is still as strong I guess there is no need....



The latest and greatest version of randys OE 261 port job is just as strong, not that out dated thing you have:taped:
:big_smile:


----------



## elanjoe

Mastermind said:


> I tell everyone, the 261 is the best 50cc worksaw there is. :msp_wink:



I think the guy in Norway has some strong words about that sentence.


----------



## Outlaw5.0

Mastermind said:


> Nope, we sling it at guys from Michigan.


Hey some of us Michigan guys are ok.


----------



## bryanr2

Very interesting thread...... 

Randy, 
Clearly you have figured out the 261/ 261c (big surprise there). Im curious about your thoughts on the 50cc shootout of the big three sometime back when my 2153 beat the 261 and the 550..... how do you think your new 261 would fair today if we did the comparison all over? Speak plain man, don't hold nothing back- wont hurt my feelings none..... just want your thoughts. opcorn: I'd like to see this saw run against a good 60cc saw (as an experiment strictly for knowledge) say a well built 359:msp_wub:.

And I reckon I'll be buying one of these to keep my new 044 company.


----------



## Hedgerow

I think the game changer here, is the fact good gains were to be had and the good characteristics of the strato system were left in tact...
Before, it was standard OP to gut the intake tract...
Now there's a snotty saw AND benefits of a working strato design...


----------



## Mastermind

chadihman said:


> I could probably help you out with a cylinder



I really appreciate that. I've got a new OEM top end already. 



elanjoe said:


> I think the guy in Norway has some strong words about that sentence.



Without a doubt. 



bryanr2 said:


> Very interesting thread......
> 
> Randy,
> Clearly you have figured out the 261/ 261c (big surprise there). Im curious about your thoughts on the 50cc shootout of the big three sometime back when my 2153 beat the 261 and the 550..... how do you think your new 261 would fair today if we did the comparison all over? Speak plain man, don't hold nothing back- wont hurt my feelings none..... just want your thoughts. opcorn: I'd like to see this saw run against a good 60cc saw (as an experiment strictly for knowledge) say a well built 359:msp_wub:.
> 
> And I reckon I'll be buying one of these to keep my new 044 company.



I'll be porting a OE 346XP in a few days. I already know the 261 as done here will take the 550 in this size wood. I think the 346XP will lose to it as well. It's less than a half second behind Jon's finger ported, 044 carbed 026 now. 



Hedgerow said:


> I think the game changer here, is the fact good gains were to be had and the good characteristics of the strato system were left in tact...
> Before, it was standard OP to gut the intake tract...
> Now there's a snotty saw AND benefits of a working strato design...



I like stratified saws. :cool2:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I really appreciate that. I've got a new OEM top end already.
> 
> 
> 
> Without a doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be porting a OE 346XP in a few days. I already know the 261 as done here will take the 550 in this size wood. I think the 346XP will lose to it as well. It's less than a half second behind Jon's finger ported, 044 carbed 026 now.
> 
> 
> 
> I like stratified saws. :cool2:



Why???


----------



## wap13

cutforfun said:


> The latest and greatest version of randys OE 261 port job is just as strong, not that out dated thing you have:taped:
> :big_smile:




Dont remind me.....


----------



## Walt41

Looks like Randy has turned impossible into I'm possible


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Why???



Because they are the future. We can either learn to make them run like we want to see them running, or be left out.


----------



## Mastermind

wap13 said:


> Dont remind me.....



The way we were doing the 261 made a great running saw, with a wide torque band. Very easy to use in the woods, and also one that I never had any complaints on. We've just found a way to make them stronger yet.


----------



## john_bud

Mastermind said:


> Because they are the future. We can either learn to make them run like we want to see them running, or be left out.



Very true. New tech is hard to improve on initially, but once figured out it's usually better than the old way. Looks like you found the latest and greatest recipe.

How long till new tech 50cc saws perform at the same level as old tech 70cc saws? (While sipping fuel like old 40cc saws!)


----------



## Mastermind

john_bud said:


> Very true. New tech is hard to improve on initially, but once figured out it's usually better than the old way. Looks like you found the latest and greatest recipe.
> 
> How long till new tech 50cc saws perform at the same level as old tech 70cc saws? (While sipping fuel like old 40cc saws!)



With a square chain, this 50cc saw tied a muffler modded 372 in that same cant.......


----------



## old-cat

Mastermind said:


> With a square chain, this 50cc saw tied a muffler modded 372 in that same cant.......



My stop watch said the 70cc lost:msp_ohmy:


----------



## Mastermind

old-cat said:


> My stop watch said the 70cc lost:msp_ohmy:



Well I didn't want to brag. :msp_unsure:


----------



## Trx250r180

old-cat said:


> My stop watch said the 70cc lost:msp_ohmy:



Doesn't surprise me a 50cc stihl can hang with a 70cc husky :jester:


----------



## john_bud

Mastermind said:


> Well I didn't want to brag. :msp_unsure:



Then we will have to brag for you!


----------



## old-cat

It's happy customers that make a saw builder successful


----------



## F.W.P.T

Hedgerow said:


> I think the game changer here, is the fact good gains were to be had and the good characteristics of the strato system were left in tact...
> Before, it was standard OP to gut the intake tract...
> Now there's a snotty saw AND benefits of a working strato design...





Mastermind said:


> I like stratified saws. :cool2:





Mastermind said:


> Because they are the future. We can either learn to make them run like we want to see them running, or be left out.





Mastermind said:


> The way we were doing the 261 made a great running saw, with a wide torque band. Very easy to use in the woods, and also one that I never had any complaints on. We've just found a way to make them stronger yet.



I was just wonderin if you have come up with a new recipe for the 372 xt keeping the strat functioning?? Btw that new saw is sick!! Keep up the great work!!


----------



## wap13

Mastermind said:


> The way we were doing the 261 made a great running saw, with a wide torque band. Very easy to use in the woods, and also one that I never had any complaints on. We've just found a way to make them stronger yet.



No complaints here, I love the 261 you did for me. But I am always looking for more....

I know it may be hard (or impossible) to answer but is there any way to quantify how much stronger they new method of porting these saws is? Is it a night and day kind of thing or is it just a little stronger?

I just cant imagine a 50cc saw getting much stronger than the 261 I have now is and still be a "working" saw. Then again I have been wrong before...


----------



## Mastermind

F.W.P.T said:


> I was just wonderin if you have come up with a new recipe for the 372 xt keeping the strat functioning?? Btw that new saw is sick!! Keep up the great work!!



The first video in this thread is of a fully stratified, ported 372XT.....I never gut those. 



wap13 said:


> No complaints here, I love the 261 you did for me. But I am always looking for more....
> 
> I know it may be hard (or impossible) to answer but is there any way to quantify how much stronger they new method of porting these saws is? Is it a night and day kind of thing or is it just a little stronger?
> 
> I just cant imagine a 50cc saw getting much stronger than the 261 I have now is and still be a "working" saw. Then again I have been wrong before...



It was a couple of seconds faster in this cant.......


----------



## MindFork

wap13 said:


> I just cant imagine a 50cc saw getting much stronger than the 261 I have now is and still be a "working" saw. Then again I have been wrong before...


Dare to dream


----------



## Mastermind

BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs. 

This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## MindFork

Mastermind said:


> BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs.
> 
> This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.


 :msp_thumbsup: :biggrinbounce2:


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs.
> 
> This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.



Good to hear. Seeing things unravel is kind of a chainsaw buzz kill. I hope others follow your lead.


----------



## wigglesworth

Mastermind said:


> BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs.
> 
> This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.



What!!!

And U left me left out?


----------



## Trx250r180

what's the next build ? ,seems like there's not too many saws you haven't met yet


----------



## Mastermind

wigglesworth said:


> What!!!
> 
> And U left me left out?



You ain't gonna be messing with no bologna saw. :msp_wink:



Trx250r180 said:


> what's the next build ? ,seems like there's not too many saws you haven't met yet



MS661 of course.


----------



## LowVolt

Mastermind said:


> You ain't gonna be messing with no bologna saw. :msp_wink:
> 
> 
> 
> MS661 of course.



Can't wait for that!


----------



## wigglesworth

Mastermind said:


> You ain't gonna be messing with no bologna saw....



No, but I can sure put a hurtin on a fried bologna and cheese sammich!!


----------



## john_bud

Mastermind said:


> BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs.
> 
> This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.



That's good to hear. I was wondering, but didn't want to stir the pot by asking! Unlike money, knowledge increases the more you "spend" it.


----------



## chadihman

wigglesworth said:


> No, but I can sure put a hurtin on a fried bologna and cheese sammich!!



What type of Bologna do you eat? In eastern Pa we have a pure beef sweet bologna and Lebanon bologna. The Lebanon bologna has a bit of a sour taste with pepper. Sweet bologna is full of brown sugar along with salt and pepper. Both are heavily wood smoked for days. Both are Pa Dutch style or some call it German style bologna. I make sweet bologna from my Deer harvest every year. My brother and I make around 100 lbs of venison sweet bologna and wood smoke it to perfection. We use pure venison with 10% beef fat. because all are harvested deer eat corn and beans and they taste like beef. The key is to trim all the venison of its fat then grind it once then add 10% beef fat and regrind one more time. Makes awesome bologna. We add 10% pork fat for delicious burgers.

Sorry to get sidetracked but Bologna is part of are life here in eastern Pa.


----------



## wap13

Mastermind said:


> The first video in this thread is of a fully stratified, ported 372XT.....I never gut those.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a couple of seconds faster in this cant.......




Thanks for sharing. I may wait a while but I have feeling you may be doing another ms261 for me. I want to wait to see what happens with the CM and porting then maybe get another, be it OE or CM. Thanks again Randy


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> BTW......I shared everything I learned here with Brad in PMs.
> 
> This builder war crap is over as far as I'm concerned.



That he did I actually had an OE 261 to port last night. I left the stratos intact, just as Randy did. What he's done here not only works, it makes sense. Sometimes it's hard to understand why something works, but this makes logical sense as well. This one that I did last night is 4-stroking hard at 14,800. I'm anxious to get it in some wood. Thanks Randy! Now would be as good a time as any. My appologies for coming after you in the first place. In my mind, what you've figured out wasn't possible. I was wrong! Honestly, I'm glad I was, lol. These little boogers will be a little easier to build now.


----------



## Joe Kidd

chadihman said:


> What type of Bologna do you eat? In eastern Pa we have a pure beef sweet bologna and Lebanon bologna. The Lebanon bologna has a bit of a sour taste with pepper. Sweet bologna is full of brown sugar along with salt and pepper. Both are heavily wood smoked for days. Both are Pa Dutch style or some call it German style bologna. I make sweet bologna from my Deer harvest every year. My brother and I make around 100 lbs of venison sweet bologna and wood smoke it to perfection. We use pure venison with 10% beef fat. because all are harvested deer eat corn and beans and they taste like beef. The key is to trim all the venison of its fat then grind it once then add 10% beef fat and regrind one more time. Makes awesome bologna. We add 10% pork fat for delicious burgers.
> 
> Sorry to get sidetracked but Bologna is part of are life here in eastern Pa.



My bologna has a first name
It's O-s-c-a-r
My bologna has a second name
It's M-e-y-e-r
I love to eat it everyday
And if you ask me what I'll saaaaaaay
Cuz Oscar Mayer has a way with B-o-l-o-g-n-a


----------



## SCHallenger

chadihman said:


> What type of Bologna do you eat? In eastern Pa we have a pure beef sweet bologna and Lebanon bologna. The Lebanon bologna has a bit of a sour taste with pepper. Sweet bologna is full of brown sugar along with salt and pepper. Both are heavily wood smoked for days. Both are Pa Dutch style or some call it German style bologna. I make sweet bologna from my Deer harvest every year. My brother and I make around 100 lbs of venison sweet bologna and wood smoke it to perfection. We use pure venison with 10% beef fat. because all are harvested deer eat corn and beans and they taste like beef. The key is to trim all the venison of its fat then grind it once then add 10% beef fat and regrind one more time. Makes awesome bologna. We add 10% pork fat for delicious burgers.
> 
> Sorry to get sidetracked but Bologna is part of are life here in eastern Pa.



Oh man! My stomach thinks my throat was cut right now, & you come up with this! Sorry to add to the sidetrack, but this sounds fantastic!


----------



## MindFork

blsnelling said:


> That he did I actually had an OE 261 to port last night. I left the stratos intact, just as Randy did. What he's done here not only works, it makes sense. Sometimes it's hard to understand why something works, but this makes logical sense as well. This one that I did last night is 4-stroking hard at 14,800. I'm anxious to get it in some wood. Thanks Randy! Now would be as good a time as any. *My appologies for coming after you in the first place. In my mind, what you've figured out wasn't possible. I was wrong! *Honestly, I'm glad I was, lol. These little boogers will be a little easier to build now.


It takes a good man to admit when he is wrong. I'm glad to see an end to the builder wars!


----------



## bryanr2

wigglesworth said:


> What!!!
> 
> And U left me left out?



Just stick to 044's Jeremy  ..... u said yourself in the auction the 261 dont tickle your fancy.


----------



## bryanr2

blsnelling said:


> That he did I actually had an OE 261 to port last night. I left the stratos intact, just as Randy did. What he's done here not only works, it makes sense. Sometimes it's hard to understand why something works, but this makes logical sense as well. This one that I did last night is 4-stroking hard at 14,800. I'm anxious to get it in some wood. Thanks Randy! Now would be as good a time as any. My appologies for coming after you in the first place. In my mind, what you've figured out wasn't possible. I was wrong! Honestly, I'm glad I was, lol. These little boogers will be a little easier to build now.


----------



## LowVolt

So builder boys, which ms261 is fastest? 

A. ms261 with porting version 2.1

B. ms261 with porting version 2.2

C. ms261c-m with porting version 2.2


----------



## blsnelling

LowVolt said:


> So builder boys, which ms261 is fastest?
> 
> A. ms261 with porting version 2.1
> 
> B. ms261 with porting version 2.2
> 
> C. ms261c-m with porting version 2.2



If I had some wood here, you could come up and we could find out A and B. I've got a new 261C here, but it's not getting modded.


----------



## elanjoe

chadihman said:


> What type of Bologna do you eat? In eastern Pa we have a pure beef sweet bologna and Lebanon bologna. The Lebanon bologna has a bit of a sour taste with pepper. Sweet bologna is full of brown sugar along with salt and pepper. Both are heavily wood smoked for days. Both are Pa Dutch style or some call it German style bologna. I make sweet bologna from my Deer harvest every year. My brother and I make around 100 lbs of venison sweet bologna and wood smoke it to perfection. We use pure venison with 10% beef fat. because all are harvested deer eat corn and beans and they taste like beef. The key is to trim all the venison of its fat then grind it once then add 10% beef fat and regrind one more time. Makes awesome bologna. We add 10% pork fat for delicious burgers.
> 
> Sorry to get sidetracked but Bologna is part of are life here in eastern Pa.



up here in the frozen north , we call fried bologna, " NEWFOUNDLAND STEAK" .

JUST AN FYI


----------



## Joe Kidd

*Take a break today Randy*

After all you've earned it after that long and fantastic MS261cm thread. You know you're not as young as you used to be! :msp_tongue:

View attachment 313591


----------



## deye223

Joe Kidd said:


> After all you've earned it after that long and fantastic MS261cm thread. You know you're not as young as you used to be! :msp_tongue:
> 
> View attachment 313591



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA :haha:


----------



## Mastermind

deye223 said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA :haha:



Why are you laughing.......we all know you're a midget.


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> Why are you laughing.......we all know you're a midget.



yep as wide as i am tall (or is that as wide as i am short)


----------



## Mastermind

deye223 said:


> yep as wide as i am tall (or is that as wide as i am short)



At least you're happy. :msp_thumbsup:


----------



## KenJax Tree

Look up the definition of "chode"


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> At least you're happy. :msp_thumbsup:



ya goyya be happy with what you are or ya end up being a Miserable Old Bastard :boss:


----------



## deye223

KenJax Tree said:


> Look up the definition of "chode"



i've got two teenage sons .

and mine is a lot longer :msp_thumbsup:


----------



## chadihman

deye223 said:


> i've got two teenage sons .
> 
> and mine is a lot longer :msp_thumbsup:



I don't wanna know how you know this:taped:


----------



## KenJax Tree

chadihman said:


> I don't wanna know how you know this:taped:



I wasn't gonna go there


----------



## chadihman

I'm really sorry but that brought an old bad joke to mind. 

You guys know why Michael Jackson got food poisoning right?

He ate a twelve year old weiner:taped:


----------



## psuiewalsh

chadihman said:


> What type of Bologna do you eat? In eastern Pa we have a pure beef sweet bologna and Lebanon bologna. The Lebanon bologna has a bit of a sour taste with pepper. Sweet bologna is full of brown sugar along with salt and pepper. Both are heavily wood smoked for days. Both are Pa Dutch style or some call it German style bologna. I make sweet bologna from my Deer harvest every year. My brother and I make around 100 lbs of venison sweet bologna and wood smoke it to perfection. We use pure venison with 10% beef fat. because all are harvested deer eat corn and beans and they taste like beef. The key is to trim all the venison of its fat then grind it once then add 10% beef fat and regrind one more time. Makes awesome bologna. We add 10% pork fat for delicious burgers.
> 
> Sorry to get sidetracked but Bologna is part of are life here in eastern Pa.



Seltzer's Products - Sweet Lebanon Bologna


----------



## chadihman

psuiewalsh said:


> Seltzer's Products - Sweet Lebanon Bologna



Yep that's good stuff


----------



## john_bud

How is it this thread degraded to Michael Jackson and baloney? :confused2:

At least tie it up with MJ cutting baloney with a ported ms261c!


----------



## TK

The thread topics change about as fast as Randy's saws cut.....


----------



## Mastermind

This is AS......threads degrade. Just the way it is. 


On a note that is related to this thread. I got to make a few cuts with some of the 550s we've ported today. I was surprised that they were only about one second behind the MS261 in the big cant. 

I never thought to make a video, and that can't is gone. I'll make another cant in a few days and post a OE 346XP, 550XP, MS261 C-M shoot out.


----------



## TK

I'd like to see the difference between a 545 and 550 when done up. Do you think you can make a 545 into a better "all-around" saw than the 550? The 550 appears to be no slouch, but it's clearly designed from the factory to be a very high speed limbing saw with immaculate handling features. Or does the 545 just lack that much out of the box that can't be made up for in porting.... Wondering if the lack of stuffers may be an advantage in altering the usable powerband for a grunty lower end worksaw....?


----------



## bryanr2

Mastermind said:


> This is AS......threads degrade. Just the way it is.
> 
> 
> On a note that is related to this thread. I got to make a few cuts with some of the 550s we've ported today. I was surprised that they were only about one second behind the MS261 in the big cant.
> 
> I never thought to make a video, and that can't is gone. I'll make another cant in a few days and post a OE 346XP, 550XP, MS261 C-M shoot out.



Just a thought....I can bring my 2153 and or 359s when I come pick up the Dolly 5100 on Thursday. Seems fitting the 261 model should get a chance to redeem itself against the "Red Demon" who handed it it's Azzz.


----------



## Mastermind

TK said:


> I'd like to see the difference between a 545 and 550 when done up. Do you think you can make a 545 into a better "all-around" saw than the 550? The 550 appears to be no slouch, but it's clearly designed from the factory to be a very high speed limbing saw with immaculate handling features. Or does the 545 just lack that much out of the box that can't be made up for in porting.... Wondering if the lack of stuffers may be an advantage in altering the usable powerband for a grunty lower end worksaw....?



I've never seen a 545 in the flesh.



bryanr2 said:


> Just a thought....I can bring my 2153 and or 359s when I come pick up the Dolly 5100 on Thursday. Seems fitting the 261 model should get a chance to redeem itself against the "Red Demon" who handed it it's Azzz.



Both of them are leaving in the morning...... :bang:

Mine ain't done.


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> I've never seen a 545 in the flesh.



 That needs to change. 

Maybe this winter or fall sometime if there's enough free time and I get bored I'll yank the top ends off both a 550 and a 545 and check out the differences. The 545's are hitting their stride here right now and outselling the 550's..... Nothing but praise from their owners.


----------



## bryanr2

Mastermind said:


> I've never seen a 545 in the flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Both of them are leaving in the morning...... :bang:
> 
> *Mine ain't done.*




You meant to say "It's not ready to face the "red Demon". Understandable. Hell, if the 261 kills it that bad..... I'll have to pull out the checkbook. Tell ya what- if'n you like.... I could leave the 2153 and a 359 with you for when yours is ready and then just pick them back up when my 2100 is done? Im figuring after the Wiggs GTG since your picking up my 044 from him. I dont see myself needing the 2153 before then..... most of what Im playing in is big logs (maximum firewood for the effort).

Let me know. Offer stands.


----------



## Mastermind

bryanr2 said:


> [/B]
> 
> You meant to say "It's not ready to face the "red Demon". Understandable. Hell, if the 261 kills it that bad..... I'll have to pull out the checkbook. Tell ya what- if'n you like.... I could leave the 2153 and a 359 with you for when yours is ready and then just pick them back up when my 2100 is done? Im figuring after the Wiggs GTG since your picking up my 044 from him. I dont see myself needing the 2153 before then..... most of what Im playing in is big logs (maximum firewood for the effort).
> 
> Let me know. Offer stands.



Yes......bring the red demon.....

We need to talk about the 2100 anyway. I can't find a case gasket anywhere for it.


----------



## brian99574

Mastermind said:


> Yes......bring the red demon.....
> 
> We need to talk about the 2100 anyway. I can't find a case gasket anywhere for it.



sounds like we got a shootout after all! Looking forward to this one.


----------



## Hedgerow

bryanr2 said:


> Just a thought....I can bring my 2153 and or 359s when I come pick up the Dolly 5100 on Thursday. Seems fitting the 261 model should get a chance to redeem itself against the "Red Demon" who handed it it's Azzz.



I wanna see a 5100 in the mix...

It's time... 

:msp_sneaky:


----------



## moody

Hedgerow said:


> I wanna see a 5100 in the mix...
> 
> It's time...
> 
> :msp_sneaky:



Wish I had one. I just sent one out last week kinda liked it :msp_wub:

Anyone have a 5100 that's worthy of the race?


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> I wanna see a 5100 in the mix...
> 
> It's time...
> 
> :msp_sneaky:



I got one of those too.....


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I got one of those too.....



Cause I've heard they can't be made to run with a 346 and stuff...
You know... 
Through the grapevine and stuff...
But I know of one somewhere that did... 
And well???
It's the next frontier...
And stuff...:msp_smile:


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Cause I've heard they can't be made to run with a 346 and stuff...
> You know...
> Through the grapevine and stuff...
> But I know of one somewhere that did...
> And well???
> It's the next frontier...
> And stuff...:msp_smile:



Are you daring me? 

Cause I don't need any more dares ya know......


----------



## moody

Mastermind said:


> Are you daring me?
> 
> Cause I don't need any more dares ya know......



It's a double pie dare.

That's right I double pie dare you:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## deye223

deye223 said:


> i've got two teenage sons .
> 
> and mine is a lot longer :msp_thumbsup:


this is what was ment i've got two teenage sons so i know what a chode is
and mine is longer than a chode.





john_bud said:


> How is it this thread degraded to Michael Jackson and baloney? :confused2:
> 
> At least tie it up with MJ cutting baloney with a ported ms261c!



chadihman



Mastermind said:


> On a note that is related to this thread. I got to make a few cuts with some of the 550s we've ported today. I was surprised that they were only about one second behind the MS261 in the big cant.
> 
> I never thought to make a video, and that can't is gone. I'll make another cant in a few days and post a OE 346XP, 550XP, MS261 C-M shoot out.



this will be good


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Mastermind said:


> I'll make another cant in a few days and post a OE 346XP, 550XP, MS261 C-M shoot out.



I'll key an eye out, as that should be an interesting thread as well. I'll be cheering for the 45cc underdog.


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> I'll key an eye out, as that should be an interesting thread as well. I'll be cheering for the 45cc underdog.



It's done, the 372 is done, and the 390 is almost done..... :msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

After talking with a few different guys I've come to believe that somehow I gave the impression that the M-Tronic falls short of the OE somehow in this thread. 

That is absolutely not the case. The OE did best the M-Tronic in this large cant I was using for testing......but only by three tenths of a second. I think that may be because I was able to advance the ignition timing on the OE. 

The difference is very slight.......and I would rather have the M-Tronic for myself.


----------



## bryanr2

Make mine the M Tron as well.


----------



## Mastermind

Mastermind said:


> After talking with a few different guys I've come to believe that somehow I gave the impression that the M-Tronic falls short of the OE somehow in this thread.
> 
> That is absolutely not the case. The OE did best the M-Tronic in this large cant I was using for testing......but only by three tenths of a second. I think that may be because I was able to advance the ignition timing on the OE.
> 
> The difference is very slight.......and I would rather have the M-Tronic for myself.



Wondering if anyone saw this post......what with all the site trouble.


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> Wondering if anyone saw this post......what with all the site trouble.



tl;dr


----------



## MasterMech

Mastermind said:


> Wondering if anyone saw this post......what with all the site trouble.



I just saw it and agree. I'm not worried about .3 seconds on the stop watch. I'll save a lot more time than that leaving the little screwdriver in the truck.


----------



## Moparmyway

thomas1 said:


> tl;dr



I have seen this posted before and feel dumb, but what does it mean ??


----------



## thomas1

Moparmyway said:


> I have seen this posted before and feel dumb, but what does it mean ??



Too long:didn't read


----------



## bryanr2

bump.


----------



## Flatie

Very impressive 
MM will you be porting the 550 xp the same way as you did the 261c now you've made such progress on the stato type?


----------



## Moparmyway

thomas1 said:


> Too long:didn't read



Thanks !!!!!!!
and here I thought it was a secret code for the cool ones with quick witty intelligence.......

While I have your attention, I have to admit - your posts are the ones that make me laugh more than anyone elses in this forum ....... keep up the good work !!!!


----------



## Mastermind

Flatie said:


> Very impressive
> MM will you be porting the 550 xp the same way as you did the 261c now you've made such progress on the stato type?



I've been doing all the other stratos this way for a long time. 

The 550 is just a second behind these in that big cant......but probably a little quicker in small wood.


----------



## thomas1

Mastermind said:


> I've been doing all the other stratos this way for a long time.
> 
> The 550 is just a second behind these in that big cant......but probably a little quicker in small wood.



This thread finally got going in the right direction, don't change it now.



Moparmyway said:


> Thanks !!!!!!!
> and here I thought it was a secret code for the cool ones with quick witty intelligence.......
> 
> While I have your attention, I have to admit - your posts are the ones that make me laugh more than anyone elses in this forum ....... keep up the good work !!!!


----------



## bryanr2

Sure is a beautiful day for videos.otstir: I got up at 6:30 to start my chores for the day. Came in for some coffee.


----------



## lone wolf

bryanr2 said:


> Sure is a beautiful day for videos.otstir: I got up at 6:30 to start my chores for the day. Came in for some coffee.



Sure is isn't it.:glasses-cool:


----------



## Mastermind

I need to get an intake boot for my 261C before I can finish it. :msp_unsure:


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> I need to get an intake boot for my 261C before I can finish it. :msp_unsure:



What is it with you and intake boots? Got an extra thumb in there we don't know about? :msp_w00t:


----------



## Mastermind

TK said:


> What is it with you and intake boots? Got an extra thumb in there we don't know about? :msp_w00t:



I forgot about gutting it for the OE......I put mine on that saw.


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> I forgot about gutting it for the OE......I put mine on that saw.



Ah. Gutted. Like a derr in Novembah.


----------



## Mastermind

TK said:


> Ah. Gutted. Like a derr in Novembah.



You Mainers.......

:msp_unsure:


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> You Mainers.......
> 
> :msp_unsure:



Mainahs can't be the only ones that have a November derr season.... And definitely can't be the only ones that gut em...... :confused2:

I mean we do it nice and clean, assumed you did the same thing :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Mastermind

TK said:


> Mainahs can't be the only ones that have a November derr season.... And definitely can't be the only ones that gut em...... :confused2:
> 
> I mean we do it nice and clean, assumed you did the same thing :hmm3grin2orange:



I gut mine wit a chainsaw. Ain't nuttin clean about it. :msp_mellow:


----------



## ptjeep

Randy, did that cylinder show up?


----------



## Mastermind

ptjeep said:


> Randy, did that cylinder show up?



Sure did Preston.....I ended up with a new one if you need it back though. 

Have you got an intake boot?


----------



## ptjeep

Negative on the boot.


----------



## john_bud

Mastermind said:


> I gut mine wit a chainsaw. Ain't nuttin clean about it. :msp_mellow:



You gut them as a separate step??? We just shoot them in the bung hole with a large enough caliber and they are gutted before they hit the ground! It is quick, but not so clean... If you use incendiary rounds, the meat's already cooked by the time you get down out of the tree too! If it's a big deer, there's nearly enough for a sammich! :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Trx250r180

ever put those finger grooves in a strato ?


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> ever put those finger grooves in a strato ?



I've yet to find a good place for em....there's a lot going on in a strato jug.


----------



## bryanr2

Keep waiting to see this thread break 41 pages. It's stalled on 40 for several days now.:bang:


----------



## bryanr2

:monkey: Hot Dam I did it!


----------



## SierraWoodsman

bryanr2 said:


> :monkey: Hot Dam I did it!



I thought this thread was pointing to an upcoming/updated 50cc shootout thread, Right?:msp_confused:


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> I thought this thread was pointing to an upcoming/updated 50cc shootout thread, Right?:msp_confused:



It is. But when I send out the OE model it was wearing my intake.......I've got Wiggs picking me one up. Hopefully we'll get it this year.

Oh.......your saws left here today.


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Oh, I see....Looking forward to that thread.
On the saws, thank you Randy! That's Awesome.
I just got the shipping notification from Fed-EX.
I'm surprised you got them all back in that Coleman cooler? 
I'm looking forward to running my first ported saws!


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> Oh, I see....Looking forward to that thread.
> On the saws, thank you Randy! That's Awesome.
> I just got the shipping notification from Fed-EX.
> I'm surprised you got them all back in that Coleman cooler?
> I'm looking forward to running my first ported saws!



We had to put a layer of foam padding on top of the three bottom saws and then put the 550 on top of that. They're in there like a hair in a biscuit.


----------



## SierraWoodsman

I figured it'd be tight fit. Thought maybe I'd try a flush cut on the 390, since you said you would have to remove the full-wrap anyways.


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> I figured it'd be tight fit. Thought maybe I'd try a flush cut on the 390, since you said you would have to remove the full-wrap anyways.



I didn't have to remove it.


----------



## brian99574

*update on oe 261*

I received the carbed version 261 in this shootout this past Saturday. I've been so busy cutting with it everyday I forgot to write about it. Its my first ported saw and im thoroughly impressed. It has replaced for stock 460 for anything 20" and smaller. By far the funnest saw I've ever run. I'll never own a stock saw again. I like it so much I just purchased a 064 with 066 top end on ebay that Randy worked on. Looking forward to playing with that one next week. My 460 is next to get Masterminded. So far I've cut a little more than a cord of firewood with the 261 and look forward to cutting many more. Anyone whose thinking of pulling trigger on the same saw, do yourself a favor and buy one already. After Randy is done with it you'll wonder how you went so long without one. Thanks again Randy!


----------



## Mastermind

brian99574 said:


> I received the carbed version 261 in this shootout this past Saturday. I've been so busy cutting with it everyday I forgot to write about it. Its my first ported saw and im thoroughly impressed. It has replaced for stock 460 for anything 20" and smaller. By far the funnest saw I've ever run. I'll never own a stock saw again. I like it so much I just purchased a 064 with 066 top end on ebay that Randy worked on. Looking forward to playing with that one next week. My 460 is next to get Masterminded. So far I've cut a little more than a cord of firewood with the 261 and look forward to cutting many more. Anyone whose thinking of pulling trigger on the same saw, do yourself a favor and buy one already. After Randy is done with it you'll wonder how you went so long without one. Thanks again Randy!



Thanks for the kind words Brian. Enjoy it my friend.


----------



## wap13

brian99574 said:


> I received the carbed version 261 in this shootout this past Saturday. I've been so busy cutting with it everyday I forgot to write about it. Its my first ported saw and im thoroughly impressed. It has replaced for stock 460 for anything 20" and smaller. By far the funnest saw I've ever run. I'll never own a stock saw again. I like it so much I just purchased a 064 with 066 top end on ebay that Randy worked on. Looking forward to playing with that one next week. My 460 is next to get Masterminded. So far I've cut a little more than a cord of firewood with the 261 and look forward to cutting many more. Anyone whose thinking of pulling trigger on the same saw, do yourself a favor and buy one already. After Randy is done with it you'll wonder how you went so long without one. Thanks again Randy!




261 from Randy was my first ported saw too. I had the same sentiments as you. It cuts like a bigger than it is. Only down side is much like you I wont own another stock saw...


----------



## Mastermind

I've got a 10" X 10" and Steven's 2153 that I ported.....a ported 2253, and last night, I got my MS261C finished.....


----------



## [email protected]

opcorn:

Just getting a movie ticket


----------



## deye223

brian99574 said:


> I received the carbed version 261 in this shootout this past Saturday. I've been so busy cutting with it everyday I forgot to write about it. Its my first ported saw and im thoroughly impressed. It has replaced for stock 460 for anything 20" and smaller. By far the funnest saw I've ever run. I'll never own a stock saw again. I like it so much I just purchased a 064 with 066 top end on ebay that Randy worked on. Looking forward to playing with that one next week. My 460 is next to get Masterminded. So far I've cut a little more than a cord of firewood with the 261 and look forward to cutting many more. Anyone whose thinking of pulling trigger on the same saw, do yourself a favor and buy one already. After Randy is done with it you'll wonder how you went so long without one. Thanks again Randy!



just wait till you get a masterminded 460 mine is an animal


----------



## Mastermind

deye223 said:


> just wait till you get a masterminded 460 mine is an animal



How many hours does that saw have on it now ya think?


----------



## deye223

Mastermind said:


> How many hours does that saw have on it now ya think?



hours ?? but it has cut 70 cubic meters of hard aussie wood


----------



## Mastermind

deye223 said:


> hours ?? but it has cut 70 cubic meters of hard aussie wood



Is that a lot?


----------



## Trx250r180

Mastermind said:


> Is that a lot?



i think it may be about 19-20 cords sir ,i may be wrong though ,i have been before


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Is that a lot?



Bout 4-5 months worth of firewood sales...
So yeah... Good bit of cutting time...
Now if he noodled all of it, that would be an ASSLOAD of fuel and time...
And stuff...
:msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> i think it may be about 19-20 cords sir ,i may be wrong though ,i have been before



I was wondering about that saw especially because it has more compression than my "normal" work saw builds. It's blowing about 225psi.


----------



## barneyrb

Mastermind said:


> I've got a 10" X 10" and *Steven's 2153 that I ported.....a ported 2253, and last night, I got my MS261C finished*.....



Which one is faster........jus sayin.....


----------



## Mastermind

barneyrb said:


> Which one is faster........jus sayin.....



Good question. Jon had to go with his wife to the doctor. He should be back in an hour or so.....then we will do some videos and timed cuts. 

Right now I'm working on my chains for the cant races. 

I don't really want to run the saws.....but will have a 3,4,5, and 6 cube there for anyone that wants to run them.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Good question. Jon had to go with his wife to the doctor. He should be back in an hour or so.....then we will do some videos and timed cuts.
> 
> Right now I'm working on my chains for the cant races.
> 
> I don't really want to run the saws.....but will have a 3,4,5, and 6 cube there for anyone that wants to run them.



Ugh...
I am not prepared...
My chains are dull...
Saws are dirty....
Ass hurts...
But hey, I got a 4 cube to play in that soft stuff with...:msp_wink:


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> Ugh...
> I am not prepared...
> My chains are dull...
> Saws are dirty....
> Ass hurts...
> But hey, I got a 4 cube to play in that soft stuff with...:msp_wink:



I don't even wanna know why your ass hurts.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> I don't even wanna know why your ass hurts.



You sure??


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> You sure??



Positive.


----------



## Stihlman441

deye223 said:


> hours ?? but it has cut 70 cubic meters of hard aussie wood



This is what i use as a rough guide when blocking.
One tank of fuel is about 1 cubic mtr of wood,one tank off fuel is about 30 mins blocking.
So Darren will give you a rough ideal of the hrs on ya saws.:msp_smile:


----------



## Philip Wheelock

Trx250r180 said:


> i think it may be about 19-20 cords...



19.313 cords according to the calculator.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> Positive.



OK then...
But it was a really good story...


----------



## mdavlee

I don't know if there's any sharp chains hanging at my house or not. I guess Justin will have to see about that.


----------



## Hedgerow

mdavlee said:


> I don't know if there's any sharp chains hanging at my house or not. I guess Justin will have to see about that.



Guess I'll have to do all the testing Friday night... I been stuck at the plant every night till 7... Maybe touch up a few tonight...
Around 10 or so... :msp_sad:


----------



## Mastermind

This is a pretty good comparison......but far from conclusive.

The MS261 C-M and the J'red 2253 both have .325......the 2153 has 3/8s. I don't have a .325 rim handy for the 2153.....

The MS261....


----------



## Mastermind

The 2253....


----------



## Mastermind

And the 2153.....



All very strong.....and none a lot faster.

Pick one and go cut wood. :msp_sneaky:


----------



## fastLeo151

What has the most torque? Cuz thats what I like....


----------



## mdavlee

They all are pretty close in cut times looks like. I thin the first one would be my pick


----------



## Mastermind

fastLeo151 said:


> What has the most torque? Cuz thats what I like....



The Stihl I think....


----------



## rburg

I believe either one of them would make me happy.


----------



## Mastermind

rburg said:


> I believe either one of them would make me happy.



You can try them all this weekend.


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> You can try them all this weekend.



I like this plan... 
The last one is the fastest I think...
But we'll find out in a couple days...
:msp_biggrin:
But how can you not love an AT!!!


----------



## Mastermind

Hedgerow said:


> I like this plan...
> The last one is the fastest I think...
> But we'll find out in a couple days...
> :msp_biggrin:
> But how can you not love an AT!!!



It's gonna be hard to beat that 2153.....


----------



## Magnumitis

That new 261 will prob be my first AT/MT saw:msp_smile:


----------



## Hedgerow

Mastermind said:


> It's gonna be hard to beat that 2153.....



I got one... But alas....
It's 54cc...
So it don't count... :msp_sad:
I just wanna run that little AutoTune!!!!!


----------



## Termite

SierraWoodsman said:


> Oh, I see....Looking forward to that thread.
> On the saws, thank you Randy! That's Awesome.
> I just got the shipping notification from Fed-EX.
> I'm surprised you got them all back in that Coleman cooler?
> I'm looking forward to running my first ported saws!



Gee Sierra, I think you have enough saws to cut down every single tree in the state of Nevada.


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Termite said:


> Gee Sierra, I think you have enough saws to cut down every single tree in the state of Nevada.



No more trees here in Nevada, I do most of my cutting on the Cal side of the Sierra.
It's always a good time.


----------



## Mastermind

Just a little update. I've done about ten more of these MS261C-Ms since this thread was posted. So far, no complaints about a single thing.......Stihl has the M-Tronic down pat.....


----------



## zogger

Mastermind said:


> Just a little update. I've done about ten more of these MS261C-Ms since this thread was posted. So far, no complaints about a single thing.......Stihl has the M-Tronic down pat.....



I am wondering when aftermarket (strict replacement or retrofit) computer controlled carbs and stuff will start showing up.


----------



## trophyhunter

Mastermind said:


> Just a little update. I've done about ten more of these MS261C-Ms since this thread was posted. So far, no complaints about a single thing.......Stihl has the M-Tronic down pat.....


They really seem to, or in other words I haven't seen legitimate gripes with the Stihl system versus some of the warm re-start issues or tuning curve 5 minutes in the wood deal that many of the Husky owners have chimed in on.

Your the man when it comes to saw tech, what do you attribute the success of their M-Tronic tech to versus some of the issues Husky has had? I've seen the vids of your ported 261C work and all I can say is WOW! That's a saw I would love to own and work with day in and out.


----------



## Mastermind

I try hard......really hard. I work long hours. I study everything that I can find. I keep good notes and records. I ask for feedback on the saws we do, that way I can stay informed.....and most importantly, I try to keep my customers happy. If you do work for the public, and in the public's eye, you have to always be willing to do whatever it takes to make the end user happy with your product.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm almost finished with another one of these.......I think I've done more 261s than any other saw.


----------



## windthrown

Just a note on these types of old/new AS crossover forum tool threads: the video links and references to the old VBulletin AS threads do not link or work correctly on/from the new XenForo AS threads. Similar to the fact that current Google searches that result in AS posts do not currently link either. The Google searches will likely be corrected in time, but I do not know about the thousands of links to early AS vBulletin threads. They all fail at this point.


----------



## treesmith

Mastermind said:


> I'm almost finished with another one of these.......I think I've done more 261s than any other saw.


As a very happy owner of one I thank you, Randy. It just keeps making me smile


----------



## Mastermind

windthrown said:


> Just a note on these types of old/new AS crossover forum tool threads: the video links and references to the old VBulletin AS threads do not link or work correctly on/from the new XenForo AS threads. Similar to the fact that current Google searches that result in AS posts do not currently link either. The Google searches will likely be corrected in time, but I do not know about the thousands of links to early AS vBulletin threads. They all fail at this point.




We can hope for the best I reckon.....


----------



## glock37

just read this whole thread damn its long

just made my decision to send randy my 026 to get done

how do the 026 compare to the 261 ported and non ported


----------



## Mastermind

glock37 said:


> just read this whole thread damn its long
> 
> just made my decision to send randy my 026 to get done
> 
> how do the 026 compare to the 261 ported and non ported



The 026 can be made into a real runner Mike. The carb is the bottleneck in the end though. 

Just made up your mind huh? How many saws have we done for you now?


----------



## Currently

Mastermind said:


> I try hard......really hard. I work long hours. I study everything that I can find. I keep good notes and records. I ask for feedback on the saws we do, that way I can stay informed.....and most importantly, I try to keep my customers happy. If you do work for the public, and in the public's eye, you have to always be willing to do whatever it takes to make the end user happy with your product.




I'm not happy with my 362 ... I want 5 more horsepower!


----------



## glock37

the stihl 041 super , a 038 mag ll , a 064 and now the 026 

all I can say is there all awesome but the 064 kicked my ass ,torn my back up

fully buried in white oak noodleing it doesn't lose rpm in the cut with a 28 inch bar

my mind is not normal


----------



## Mastermind

Currently said:


> I'm not happy with my 362 ... *I want 5 more horsepower! *



I know the feeling......



glock37 said:


> the stihl 041 super , a 038 mag ll , a 064 and now the 026
> 
> all I can say is there all awesome but the 064 kicked my ass ,torn my back up
> 
> fully buried in white oak noodleing it doesn't lose rpm in the cut with a 28 inch bar
> 
> my mind is not normal



I'll take that old back breaking 064 if it's too much for ya.


----------



## Currently

That's because Randy is taking advantage of our addictions!

Mo' powah! 

Mo' saws! 

Now I gotta get a 261cm for him to mod ... Poor me ....


----------



## Mastermind

You poor man.........what are we to do?


----------



## Currently

OTOH, the 441 is quite the tool.

Every one that tries it out wants to steal it ... Hearing them mutter that all they have to do is swap out the plastic got me worried.


----------



## Mastermind

I guess I've worked out a trade for a 441C. I've been after one for awhile now.


----------



## glock37

I'll take that old back breaking 064 if it's too much for ya. [/quote]

it does the job nicely when needed I think i'll keep it

that 032 you sent parts are getting gather for it


----------



## Currently

Mastermind said:


> You poor man.........what are we to do?



Make it easier to feed the addiction .. it is how the drug dealers do it!


----------



## zogger

windthrown said:


> Just a note on these types of old/new AS crossover forum tool threads: the video links and references to the old VBulletin AS threads do not link or work correctly on/from the new XenForo AS threads. Similar to the fact that current Google searches that result in AS posts do not currently link either. The Google searches will likely be corrected in time, but I do not know about the thousands of links to early AS vBulletin threads. They all fail at this point.




The google cache for the old As vbulletin threads should still be working.


----------



## Mastermind

Currently said:


> Make it easier to feed the addiction .. it is how the drug dealers do it!



Like this? 

*"Today's special !!!! Get Four Saws Done For The Price Of Three !!!!"*


----------



## Mastermind

glock37 said:


> that 032 you sent parts are getting gather for it



I nearly forgot about that ol' thing.


----------



## Currently

Mastermind said:


> Like this?
> 
> *"Today's special !!!! Get Four Saws Done For The Price Of Three !!!!"*



Yer an evil man! Now I know why buzzards circle your house. :lmao:


----------



## Mastermind




----------



## glock37

Mastermind said:


> Like this?
> 
> *"Today's special !!!! Get Four Saws Done For The Price Of Three !!!!"*



so I get a discount on the 4 saw ? woo ho


----------



## Evanrude

glock37 said:


> just read this whole thread damn its long
> 
> just made my decision to send randy my 026 to get done
> 
> how do the 026 compare to the 261 ported and non ported



You'll like the 026 modded. I had Randy do my 260 as I was on the verge of selling it for a 261, but I really liked the way the 260 handles. It's a fantastic little saw now with the port work. I run .325 8T with 16" bar buried in hardwoods all the time. Lots of torque!


----------



## glock37

thanks I built for brother for Christmas gift

I got a 3/8 .50 for 16 inch bar for it


----------



## Mastermind

glock37 said:


> so I get a discount on the 4 saw ? woo ho



I said "Today's Special".


----------



## glock37

I mentioned it today !


----------



## Mastermind

I'll have my people call your people.....we'll do lunch and work out the details.


----------



## Currently

Imma witness! 

Next step is y'all gonna organize a group buy and get forty saws together. I'll take the ten free ones! :evilgrin:


----------



## glock37

Mastermind said:


> I'll have my people call your people.....we'll do lunch and work out the details.[/quot
> 
> I like that idea


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Only have 3 more to get Masterminded, can we work a deal on those?


----------



## windthrown

Mastermind said:


> I guess I've worked out a trade for a 441C. I've been after one for awhile now.


 
Its an M model... Em! A C model can be non-Mtronic. But glad you got that saw. I have to pay property taxes now on top of my dentist, so no cash-o-la here. But I managed to get a low-end useless no-respect fat and heavy 441 (according to the Troll) in a MM inspired trade here. I like the saw a lot though, and I did not get it to make anyone else happy. That  MM 441/C-M would have been a sweet saw. Though, according to the Troll, its still a fat useless no-respect heavy 441. Keep that in mind when you are ripping through hardwood like its balsa wood.


----------



## windthrown

zogger said:


> The google cache for the old As vbulletin threads should still be working.


 
They are still cached, but they point to non-existent source files on the old vBulletin AS site that is no longer. Google searches of AS at this time are pretty useless. For example, type in "MasterMind 261 mod ArboristSite" in Google, and anything listed that is older than October will result in 'The webpage cannot be found' if you click on it.


----------



## treesmith

Mr Troll is in Sweden, they don't really know what big hardwood is, hence the obsession with balance and weight while limbing birch twigs, certainly knows his subject though, hi ST!


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> Only have 3 more to get Masterminded, can we work a deal on those?



I reckon.......300.00 each.


----------



## windthrown

treesmith said:


> Mr Troll is in Sweden, they don't really know what big hardwood is, hence the obsession with balance and weight while limbing birch twigs, certainly knows his subject though, hi ST!


 
Correction: Mr. Troll is in Norway. Most of his beloved saws are from Sweden though. Birch twigs...  yah, I guess that is it...


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Think I'm Going to have wait until after Christmas to pay off that bill, but I might just send all 3 your way and pay them 
off one at a time (I'm not in a real big hurry). Saved on shipping last time we did that. I might as well do it Randy, because the non-ported ones no longer
have the appeal they once did. Funny how that works...


----------



## Mastermind

Bring it.....you still got that cooler right?


----------



## windthrown

Ported saw addiction... PSA. A more advanced stage of CAD, and more expensive. No cure is known.

_Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!_


----------



## SierraWoodsman

Yup, I'll send them in that big cooler tomorrow


----------



## Mastermind

windthrown said:


> Ported saw addiction... PSA. A more advanced stage of CAD, and more expensive. No cure is known.
> 
> _Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!_




I'ma usin some of that in muh sig if'n you don't mind Sir.


----------



## Tnshaker

Run one of Randy's saws and there is no going back.......a stock saw feels like a piece of junk after that....lol


----------



## Mastermind

SierraWoodsman said:


> Yup, I'll send them in that big cooler tomorrow




I'm about 4 weeks out or so.......same as always.


----------



## SierraWoodsman

PSA...Hmmmm....I guess didn't realize more severe form of the disease


----------



## fastLeo151

I have about 5 tanks through my ported 261cm, and its a beast


----------



## windthrown

Mastermind said:


> I'ma usin some of that in muh sig if'n you don't mind Sir.


 
I would be honored to be quoted by the Omnipotent MasterMind...


----------



## Mastermind

Done....


----------



## windthrown

SierraWoodsman said:


> PSA...Hmmmm....I guess didn't realize more severe form of the disease


 
Yes yes. In some of the most advanced stages of PSA surgery is required. Its called a "radical walletectomy".

There are other advanced forms of CAD as well, like LDSA, or Larger Displacement Saw Addiction, which is similar to PSA but involves the hording of increasingly larger stock chainsaws with larger displacement. Then there is DCA, or Duplicate Chainsaw Addiction, in which multiple saws of the same model are bought and hoarded. I suffer most from DCA myself. One 361 is just never enough. I have had 6 or 7 of them. Similar with my collecting 026 and 310s. Of course all of these advanced forms may be present and comorbid with baseline CAD.


----------



## treesmith

windthrown said:


> Correction: Mr. Troll is in Norway.


Thanks mate, I did know that but my brain stopped working, saw sounds nice


----------



## Mastermind

I just fixed all the video links in this thread.......damn, that took a while.


----------



## rburg

Thanks for all the work.


----------



## Mastermind

I bet I've done 25 of these saws since this thread was first started......not one single issue with any saw.


----------



## Duane(Pa)

Mastermind said:


> I bet I've done 25 of these saws since this thread was first started......not one single issue with any saw.




Hey, quick question: do you do saws in batches? I saw you mention having 5 of these on your bench for next week. Tell us a little about how things go when you have a bunch of the same model to mod. Thanks, DW


----------



## Mastermind

Sometimes I'll have a couple of the same model that are landing on the bench in the same week.......then I'll have a few more that are a week or two away. When it works out like that I'll get them all out and do them together. That way I just use one saw to set up my degree wheel on, and all the cylinders are setup on the one saw. I do all the machine work the same, all the port heights the same, etc.....


----------



## MasterMech

Mastermind said:


> Sometimes I'll have a couple of the same model that are landing on the bench in the same week.......then I'll have a few more that are a week or two away. When it works out like that I'll get them all out and do them together. That way I just use one saw to set up my degree wheel on, and all the cylinders are setup on the one saw. I do all the machine work the same, all the port heights the same, etc.....


Are the bottom ends and pistons really that consistent? I would imagine that there has to be at least some variance.


----------



## Mastermind

They are that consistent. If not, you would never be able to buy a new top end and expect it to perform properly.


----------



## Moparmyway

Randy,
You lost your tie and jacket ...................
Whats the writing say ?

It dont look right


----------



## komatsuvarna

Good thread here!
Guess I'll be looking for a ms261 soon .

Probably even have it masterminded straotofied ported .


----------



## ptjeep

komatsuvarna said:


> Good thread here!
> Guess I'll be looking for a ms261 soon .
> 
> Probably even have it masterminded straotofied ported .



Now hang on a minute,,,,,, did you bump your head climbing out of a trench box????? Seams i recall you stating in the past that your first impression of the 261 was a " cheap plastic handled piece of shat".


----------



## mdavlee

ptjeep said:


> Now hang on a minute,,,,,, did you bump your head climbing out of a trench box????? Seams i recall you stating in the past that your first impression of the 261 was a " cheap plastic handled piece of shat".



I think that was mine too. After running Randy's the other day I may need a metal handle bar. I was pushing as hard as I could on the little bastard and it kept pulling.


----------



## Mastermind

I'm finishing up four more of them in the morning......I probably do more of these than any saw I do.


----------



## ptjeep

Mastermind said:


> I'm finishing up four more of them in the morning......I probably do more of these than any saw I do.


That says a lot!


----------



## komatsuvarna

ptjeep said:


> Now hang on a minute,,,,,, did you bump your head climbing out of a trench box????? Seams i recall you stating in the past that your first impression of the 261 was a " cheap plastic handled piece of shat".



HAHA!! I still don't like the plastic handle bar,,,but I think I can get used to it .


----------



## Mastermind

I do like that......and I liked it on the MS260. The diameter of it fits my hand better than the older metal style.


----------



## Mastermind

I've been working on a new way to do these mufflers so they can be screened. This is what I came up with. 





The screws are temporary. I've got rivet nuts and torx screws in route from McMaster Carr coming to install the deflectors with.


----------



## Venomvpr900

Mastermind said:


> I've been working on a new way to do these mufflers so they can be screened. This is what I came up with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The screws are temporary. I've got rivet nuts and torx screws in route from McMaster Carr coming to install the deflectors with.



Where did you find the deflector?


----------



## Mastermind

I made the deflector.


----------



## jpj6780

T27 torx?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mastermind

The ones I ordered are T-25


----------



## Duane(Pa)

Should work on lots of mufflers. Nice work. May have to run a whole batch of those puppies.


----------



## downey

could u put the deflector threw the muffler instead of on the outside? it would give it a cleaner look.


----------



## Duane(Pa)

downey said:


> could u put the deflector threw the muffler instead of on the outside? it would give it a cleaner look.


Think it is to hold the screen, otherwise it could just be brazed or welded in place.


----------



## BKrusher

Have you come up with a better solution in regards to the paint you apply once you mod the muffler?


----------



## Mastermind

I've been just masking of the rest of the muffler and painting only the deflector. It's still not a good looking solution. I checked on ceramic paints, but they are damned expensive.


----------



## Raganr

Randy, do you have to split the muffler to weld a nut inside or are they just sheet metal screws?


----------



## Mastermind

Raganr said:


> Randy, do you have to split the muffler to weld a nut inside or are they just sheet metal screws?



I've got a rivet nut set in route from McMasterCarr to allow me to use a Torx pan head machine screw to hold the deflector on.


----------



## Mastermind

Here's the reason I'm still chasing the perfect muffler mod on these saws.

This is my own saw......as you can see the paint doesn't hold up very well.


----------



## Mastermind

Here's what I'm working on......





Here's an unscreened deflector, silver brazed on and just the deflector is painted. 





This one was done by someone else and has the whole muffler painted. 





This is the screened style I'm working on now. Remember, these big screws are temporary.


----------



## komatsuvarna

I like the idea of having a spark screen in place. I don't really worry about sparks getting out where and when I cut, I worry more about dirt dobbers getting in there in the summer months or some kind of junk getting in there while It's riding around in the bed of my truck or something.


----------



## Mastermind

The factory outlet is very restrictive on these......





Mainly because the screen is tiny. 





When the screen isn't important to the end user, this is what I do.


----------



## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> I like the idea of having a spark screen in place. I don't really worry about sparks getting out where and when I cut, I worry more about dirt dobbers getting in there in the summer months or some kind of junk getting in there while It's riding around in the bed of my truck or something.



I like a screen for the same reasons.


----------



## Mastermind

Coming Soon......


----------



## ptjeep

Randy, have you thought about selling those deflectors you made? It may not be worth the time and effort, just curious. I wouldn't mind having a few extra laying around. I know Baileys sells them but after you pay shipping its a little high IMO.


----------



## Mastermind

No Preston, they take too long to make....


----------



## Trx250r180

great idea on the nut rivet for threads ,the ones i have stick out a little from flush so the deflector may have to be reshaped to get closer to the can ,are you having problems with sheet metal screws coming out ?


----------



## Mastermind

Trx250r180 said:


> great idea on the nut rivet for threads ,the ones i have stick out a little from flush so the deflector may have to be reshaped to get closer to the can ,are you having problems with sheet metal screws coming out ?



I rarely use screws.....normally I braze the deflectors on. I've seen them come off many times when screws are used though.


----------



## Stihlman441

If the deflectors were made from stainless then there would no need for paint,but would be more difficult as in bending.If the screen is not needed then brazing is the neatest.


----------



## VinceGU05

if people don't want spark arresters, what about louvering?




now yr making it hard Randy. ported 261 or ported 261c or ported 241c for the next saw


----------



## Mastermind

Brad uses louvers, and does a nice looking job on em. I try it and they look like hammered chit.


----------



## blsnelling

Mastermind said:


> Brad uses louvers, and does a nice looking job on em. I try it and they look like hammered chit.


You just made me laugh out loud. Sorry Randy, but that was funny


----------



## bryanr2

That 


Mastermind said:


> Here's what I'm working on......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an unscreened deflector, silver brazed on and just the deflector is painted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one was done by someone else and has the whole muffler painted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the screened style I'm working on now. Remember, these big screws are temporary.


painted one looks familiar.


----------



## VinceGU05

Mastermind said:


> Brad uses louvers, and does a nice looking job on em. I try it and they look like hammered chit.


 aww come on randy. this was my first attempt. A man of yr caliber should piss this in


----------



## AKDoug

It's too damn bad they didn't make the two piece muffler for the 261C-M like they did on the 362C-M.


----------



## Mastermind

Latest revision.


----------



## Duane(Pa)

I like the looks of that. How does it sound?? Oh, never mind... Sounds like a freakin' Chainsaw


----------



## Mastermind

It's like....well......it's......err.......loud?


----------



## Raganr

Is that a For Sale tag I see on it???


----------



## Mastermind

I have a bunch of those tags. I write the owners name on the back.


----------



## Duane(Pa)

Mastermind said:


> I have a bunch of those tags. I write the owners name on the back.


Then you givem half what you get? Haaa!


----------



## Stihlman441

Mastermind said:


> Latest revision.


 
Sorry Randy but i prefer the brazed on one that you did for me but yea i realise the ones that prefer the screen need to have a differant system.
But it looks a little on the large side for me but i just cut wood so what would i know.


----------



## Mastermind

I've had some trouble with the brazed ones staying on......that stainless is slick and hard.


----------



## VinceGU05

pop rivets ?


----------



## fordf150

Looks good Randy


----------



## MasterMech

Mastermind said:


> I've had some trouble with the brazed ones staying on......that stainless is slick and hard.


Thin stainless? TIG baby, TIG.

I know you were looking for one a while back.


----------



## Mastermind

I don't really have the power for Tig in my little back yard shop.


----------



## TK

Mastermind said:


> I don't really have the power for Tig in my little back yard shop.


That can be fixed.


----------



## Mastermind

True.


----------



## Trx250r180

but the space to store a tig comes into play then


----------



## cre10

Trx250r180 said:


> but the space to store a tig comes into play then


Sounds like a good excuse to add on to the shop


----------



## Mastermind

I've been gathering to build a bigger shop. It looks like we will take off a month this summer and build a 24 X 24.


----------



## fordf150

And by the end of summer that will be full and you will need to add on again. 3 garages and an old bank barn a 21x 48 carport and still don't have enough space to store all my junk


----------



## Mastermind

I've been working in a 200 sq ft shop for several years now. I like how it's laid out.......but it's time to get in something larger.


----------



## fordf150

Don't know how you do it. Mine is 1800 and I wish it was double that.


----------



## Mastermind

I just do saws....


----------



## Trx250r180

whats that old saying ? It's not the size of your shop but how you use it ?


----------



## fordf150

We work on anything that comes through the door so that does play a part in it


----------



## komatsuvarna

Pole building, Randy?


----------



## Mastermind

No Durand, I'll put in a foundation, and build it with a wooden floor.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> No Durand, I'll put in a foundation, and build it with a wooden floor.



Well, if you need any weekend help, I'm not much of a carpenter,but I can dig .


----------



## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> Well, if you need any weekend help, I'm not much of a carpenter,but I can dig .



What you are is a great friend.


----------



## TK

I can help build the place. Do you have a left handed hammer or do I need to bring my own?


----------



## bryanr2

Hello, 
Dont forget about me. I make my own sched so will come and help. Just need a days notice.


----------



## Trx250r180

kinda roughing it but may get by with it for a while


----------



## Mastermind

Steven, your 261 is done.....


----------



## bryanr2

Mastermind said:


> Steven, your 261 is done.....


 Is she gonna be a game changer?opcorn:


----------



## Mastermind

LMAO........I've got four of em done, and haven't started any of them. My damn back is hurting too bad to mess with em. 

Jon will be able to help me Sunday.......then we'll run em.


----------



## SCHallenger

Very nice!! You just need my 20in. Northfield band saw (only 950lbs. without the 3hp. Baldor on it-all cast iron). It would look mighty nice in there. Sorry to be off topic, but that work shop is a dream!!


Trx250r180 said:


> kinda roughing it but may get by with it for a while


----------



## cre10

TK said:


> I can help build the place. Do you have a left handed hammer or do I need to bring my own?


My dog and I will bring the ice cold Busch


----------



## Mastermind

cre10 said:


> My dog and I will bring the ice cold Busch



As I long time member of NA, I can't allow beer on my place. I'm afraid I might decide to drink again.


----------



## nmurph

Mastermind said:


> As I long time member of NA, I can't allow beer on my place. I'm afraid I might decide to drink again.



Good for you, buddy!!!


----------



## nmurph

Randy, do you still prefer the C to the regular carb? I thought the regular carbs were proving to be faster?


----------



## Mastermind

The regular, or OE as I've started calling them, is a very small amount faster in a timed cut under the right conditions. But, the C-M is perfect all the time, every time. Never needs tuning, starts like a champ. I love em.


----------



## Stihlman441

Trx250r180 said:


> kinda roughing it but may get by with it for a while



That is a sweet set up,just wondering about the fresh air part at the top how do you go with dust,heat,cold ect.


----------



## Termite

SCHallenger said:


> Very nice!! You just need my 20in. Northfield band saw (only 950lbs. without the 3hp. Baldor on it-all cast iron). It would look mighty nice in there. Sorry to be off topic, but that work shop is a dream!!


20 inch is good but 30 is better.


----------



## AKDoug

Trx250r180 said:


> kinda roughing it but may get by with it for a while



Brian, how long have you lived in P.A. ? My mom's people are all from there.


----------



## AKDoug

Mastermind said:


> No Durand, I'll put in a foundation, and build it with a wooden floor.


Good decision. As I get older I really appreciate a wooden floor vs. concrete. My saw shop is on concrete. I do most of my work from a tall chair because my feet just can't take it.


----------



## Trx250r180

Stihra: 4678775 said:


> That is a sweet set up,just wondering about the fresh air part at the top how do you go with dust,heat,cold ect.


That was a random google image, googled saw shop inside and it was at top of my images,not my shop,gives me some ideas for when I expand mine though


----------



## Trx250r180

Stihra: 4678775 said:


> That is a sweet set up,just wondering about the fresh air part at the top how do you go with dust,heat,cold ect.


That was a random google image, googled saw shop inside and it was at top of my images,not my shop,gives me some ideas for when I expand mine though


----------



## Trx250r180

AI'doug said:


> Brian, how long have you lived in P.A. ? My mom's people are all from there.


Since the mid 80s


----------



## AKDoug

My mom was born there and graduated in the 60's. My grandpa lived there until he passed away three years ago, my grandma passed in '97. They had a place up on Lake Dawn, off of Hurricane Ridge Rd., from the 50's to the 90's. Lots of good memories up there.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Is the non M-tronic still available? If so anyone know for how long?


----------



## BKrusher

Mastermind said:


> I've been just masking of the rest of the muffler and painting only the deflector. It's still not a good looking solution. I checked on ceramic paints, but they are damned expensive.


Gotcha. I don't mind the high temp grill paint rubbing off my 261c much like yours, but was thinking that it would be cool to find a permanent solution. Right now the way it sits I think that it's just icing on the cake.


----------



## SCHallenger

Termite said:


> 20 inch is good but 30 is better.


Sure is!


----------



## MasterMech

komatsuvarna said:


> Is the non M-tronic still available? If so anyone know for how long?


I know I had to wait for the distributor to run out of the OE before they started shipping the C-M to dealers. My guess is that very few OE's are out there on dealer shelves.


----------



## psuiewalsh

BKrusher said:


> Gotcha. I don't mind the high temp grill paint rubbing off my 261c much like yours, but was thinking that it would be cool to find a permanent solution. Right now the way it sits I think that it's just icing on the cake.



http://www.jet-hot.com/applications/aftermarket-faq/


----------



## komatsuvarna

MasterMech said:


> I know I had to wait for the distributor to run out of the OE before they started shipping the C-M to dealers. My guess is that very few OE's are out there on dealer shelves.


I snagged a new OE a couple weeks ago


----------



## moody

komatsuvarna said:


> I snagged a new OE a couple weeks ago



I know where 4 are still new around here. If anyone wants them let me know.


----------



## komatsuvarna

I put the dual spikes on mine this morning. A lot of people don't like them on smaller saws, but I do quite a bit of firewood falling and bucking with a 50cc and I love the dual spikes.




Has one figured out a good way to open up the existing exhaust outlet on these, and leave the spark screen in place? Not many options with the design...


----------



## Raganr

There are a few regular 261s on shelves around me as well.


----------



## redfin

komatsuvarna said:


> I put the dual spikes on mine this morning. A lot of people don't like them on smaller saws, but I do quite a bit of firewood falling and bucking with a 50cc and I love the dual spikes.



What did they bang you for that cover? I agree with you having the outside spike. I probably wouldn't have bought one but I just repurposed the inside spike from my 044 when I put bigger ones on. I like having both.


----------



## komatsuvarna

The cover is the oem one. I just put the dual spikes on it and the roller chain catcher....and removed the factory aluminium chain catcher.


----------



## cre10

komatsuvarna said:


> The cover is the oem one. I just put the dual spikes on it and the roller chain catcher....and removed the factory aluminium chain catcher.


How long of bolts did you get? I got the dual set about a week ago, but the ones that come with it are too short and haven't really had a chance to look close or get another couple bolts.


----------



## MasterMech

Seems to be the thing to do lately! . My 261 got some new teeth yesterday too. Did you shim the roller axle?


----------



## XSKIER

I like the double dawgs and bare tsumara bar, but I don't really get into the non-safety 3/8.


----------



## XSKIER

My bolts were long enough, and my roller axle is shimmed. However, my muffler is not modded.


----------



## SAWMIKAZE

komatsuvarna said:


> I put the dual spikes on mine this morning. A lot of people don't like them on smaller saws, but I do quite a bit of firewood falling and bucking with a 50cc and I love the dual spikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has one figured out a good way to open up the existing exhaust outlet on these, and leave the spark screen in place? Not many options with the design...



Look up brads muffler mod on a 261..the " shark gills " look cool and work well !


----------



## moody

SAWMIKAZE said:


> Look up brads muffler mod on a 261..the " shark gills " look cool and work well !



Loovers (or however you spell it) are tough to do and look good. I end up saying consecutive dirty words when I've tried to do them. But he does really nice ones


----------



## komatsuvarna

moody said:


> Loovers (or however you spell it) are tough to do and look good. I end up saying consecutive dirty words when I've tried to do them. But he does really nice ones



I agree Brad does those nicely. Mine look like hammered crap lol. I really want to keep a screen in place just mainly to keep junk out, rather than sparks in.


----------



## moody

komatsuvarna said:


> I agree Brad does those nicely. Mine look like hammered crap lol. I really want to keep a screen in place just mainly to keep junk out, rather than sparks in.









That's how I do mine. You can put a screen under the deflector. I got some really nice ones from treemonkey. I just used a hammer and vise to make ones similar to it. I like putting the lip on the deflector to avoid anything poking into the hole.


----------



## komatsuvarna

XSKIER said:


> I like the double dawgs and bare tsumara bar, but I don't really get into the non-safety 3/8.


Non safety 3/8s?!?!?
Ah hell I guess someone needs to buy safety chain!

My bolts was long enough to use, but probably a bit shorter than they should have been. I used Red locktite and put it together.


----------



## SCHallenger

The Husky deflector for the 288 also works very well. I didn't trust myself to do the "shark gills" without some practice. Also, you can use a screen when using the scoop. The difference in my saw, with only that mod & no enlargement in the original muff port, was dramatic. The H needle was made unlimited before the MM.
FWIW Moody, it's spelled louvers. You were close.


----------



## XSKIER

For me, the .325 works better.


----------



## komatsuvarna

MasterMech said:


> View attachment 336712
> 
> Seems to be the thing to do lately! . My 261 got some new teeth yesterday too. Did you shim the roller axle?


Yes i used 2 or 3 little washers to shim it out. Worked out perfect, with the bar installed just the end taper on the axle sticks through.


----------



## moody

SCHallenger said:


> The Husky deflector for the 288 also works very well. I didn't trust myself to do the "shark gills" without some practice. Also, you can use a screen when using the scoop. The difference in my saw, with only that mod & no enlargement in the original muff port, was dramatic. The H needle was made unlimited before the MM.
> FWIW Moody, it's spelled louvers. You were close.



Thanks for the correction! Learn something new everyday. 288 deflectors are NA around here. The second best to making your own is 394/395 deflector

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## komatsuvarna

SCHallenger said:


> The Husky deflector for the 288 also works very well. I didn't trust myself to do the "shark gills" without some practice. Also, you can use a screen when using the scoop. The difference in my saw, with only that mod & no enlargement in the original muff port, was dramatic. The H needle was made unlimited before the MM.
> FWIW Moody, it's spelled louvers. You were close.


I've done a lot of those 288 style deflector mods, but im not sure I want to go that route on this saw. I want to find a way to mod the factory outlet and still keep a screen. I got an idea im gonna try.

Unlimiting the H needle was the first mod I done. Against the stop it was turning about 14500.


----------



## Mastermind

What spikes are y'all using?


----------



## MasterMech

Mastermind said:


> What spikes are y'all using?


OEM dual spike kit for the 361, 1135 650 7750

Includes the catcher too.


----------



## cre10

XSKIER said:


> My bolts were long enough, and my roller axle is shimmed. However, my muffler is not modded.


I will have to shim mine. My bolts were just a hair too short. On one I tried to get a little more turn on the nut and stripped it so I need to get a couple more just a hair longer than what came with it.


----------



## hseII

Trx250r180 said:


> kinda roughing it but may get by with it for a while



"Rough" My Ass.
I Just Leaked A Little


----------



## hseII

komatsuvarna said:


> I snagged a new OE a couple weeks ago



I snagged a "like new" OE myself 4 weekends ago....


----------



## hseII

komatsuvarna said:


> I put the dual spikes on mine this morning. A lot of people don't like them on smaller saws, but I do quite a bit of firewood falling and bucking with a 50cc and I love the dual spikes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has one figured out a good way to open up the existing exhaust outlet on these, and leave the spark screen in place? Not many options with the design...



What Length Bar is that, Brand X?

That Set Up looks cool as Chit


----------



## komatsuvarna

hseII said:


> What Length Bar is that, Brand X?
> 
> That Set Up looks cool as Chit



That a 16'' Tsumura. I'm probably gonna be run a 18'' Sugihara on it soon.


----------



## Mastermind

I like those Tsumura bars.


----------



## komatsuvarna

I done some grinding on my muffler today. I opened up the factory outlet, all but a bit in the back to hold the screen under. Ground out the original spark screen track, and all the pipe I could get out. At least you can now see the exhaust port from the outlet . I found a old used piece of spark screen I cut to size, and used the factory bolt to hold it down. She sounds much better and it gained about 600 rpm, had to fatten it back up. Quite a bit louder, but not too loud IMO. No cuts today though.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> I like those Tsumura bars.



Yup. Old buddy gave that to me .


----------



## Mastermind

That's the way I used to do them Durand.......they ended up blowing the screen out though.


----------



## moody

Just an idea. Could you cut a slot in the deflector and use a screen off of say a 372 slide through the slot bend the screen on the deflector and screw both ends down? 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mastermind

That will work....and is another way I've done it.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> That's the way I used to do them Durand.......they ended up blowing the screen out though.



It's tucked in pretty tight in the back...but it may not last long. I'll tell ya soon .


----------



## komatsuvarna

moody said:


> Just an idea. Could you cut a slot in the deflector and use a screen off of say a 372 slide through the slot bend the screen on the deflector and screw both ends down?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk



That's what I figured I would do if this don't pan out, but I think mine will be fine......but I've said that before and was wrong lol.


----------



## Mastermind

I think this is the best way to do it.


----------



## moody

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## redfin

Is the size of the stock spark screen in these the limiting factor in just opening the original hole?


----------



## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> I think this is the best way to do it.



I'm sure it is....I'm just not a big fan of the screw on deflectors. I'm a picky bastard sometimes .


----------



## Mastermind

That deflector has rivet nuts and machine screws. No sheet metal screw in my saws.


----------



## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> That deflector has rivet nuts and machine screws. No sheet metal screw in my saws.



Well I aint got all that fancy stuff ! I'd say that does work great!


----------



## komatsuvarna

redfin said:


> Is the size of the stock spark screen in these the limiting factor in just opening the original hole?



I'm just a dumb hillbilly, but in my opinion both! If you open up just the outlet, the screen will be limiting. If you remove the screen all together, the outlet will be limiting. Plus, they have a pipe inside the can that's limiting too IMO. I think Randy has the ticket with his deflector and rivet nuts....he bypasses all that crap with that!


----------



## Mastermind

I use an extra thick screen that one of our fine members here turned me onto. It takes up the space that the rivet nuts make between the can and the deflector. 

If'n you need any of that stuff Durand.......just let me know.


----------



## RedFir Down

Since we are talking about Rivet nuts I gave these a try a while back and really like the turn out. They are low profile (8x32 threads) so the deflectors fit nice and snug to the muffler. Then I use a regular 8x32x3/8 pan head screw that takes a #2 phillips screw driver.

Im sure these are very similar to what Randy uses to make those 261 muffler mods so nice.

I got my last rivet nuts from fastenal because there is one here local. I know there prices are high and Mcmaster Carr is probably cheaper but here is a link.
https://www.fastenal.com/web/produc...pcode=&filterByStore=&filterByVendingMachine=

Pictures in a minute


----------



## RedFir Down

Regular rivet nut on the left, low profile on the right.


----------



## redfin

Do they capture as you tighten the bolt or do you need to use a tool?


----------



## RedFir Down

That is the only down side to Rivet nuts... you do need a tool. 
Dont buy the HF tool, it will only last about 2 mufflers, I found out the hard way. (That is my first and last tool I will buy there)
I think the better kit I bought was around $70-80, well worth it IMO.


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## naturelover

Hmm, I've been through several with the H/F one...

Worked well so far.


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## Mastermind

I got a kit from McMasterCarr. 

I'd like to have some of the low profile ones....


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## RedFir Down

They work slick Randy! All the saws I have used Rivet nuts on are out right now or I would snap a few shots. They sure turn out nice though!
I have had zero issues doing muffle mods this way.


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## Duane(Pa)

Mastermind said:


> I got a kit from McMasterCarr.
> 
> I'd like to have some of the low profile ones....


Pretty thin flange on the LP style, but for this application should be fine. Most of the meat of the fastener is hidden back inside the can. For something like a mirror on a sheet metal truck door the heavier, thicker flange keeps it from punching through the other way. (inward). Smallest one I have used are 1/4" They sure are the cat's meow.


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## Mastermind

I've been using the thin rivet nuts now for awhile thanks to a generous member sending me some........slick they are.


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## Mastermind

Had to dig this thread up for a member to check out.......good time for a bump.


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## bryanr2

261cm's rock


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## Mike from Maine

bryanr2 said:


> 261cm's rock


But the ms362 is awesome!!!


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## Mastermind

Hello Mike. 

This thread is a "must read". 

There will be a test.


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## komatsuvarna

Mastermind said:


> Hello Mike.
> 
> This thread is a "must read".
> 
> There will be a test.



How many ms261s you figure you've done now, Randy?


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## treesmith

komatsuvarna said:


> How many ms261s you figure you've done now, Randy?


At least two...

I had an oe that my friend is now in a relationship with, I now have a ne mm261cxb. The first one was seriously impressive, the new one blew the old one away even before it was broken in.

In aussie gum the oe preferred .325 but cut well with 3/8

The ne cuts like a motherhumper


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## bryanr2

Clearly Randy, you have the 261 figured out. Are you seeing the same power increase out of the 362cm once ported?


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## Duane(Pa)

bryanr2 said:


> Clearly Randy, you have the 261 figured out. Are you seeing the same power increase out of the 362cm once ported?


Paging Chadihman warm up the Dyno


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## Mastermind

komatsuvarna said:


> How many ms261s you figure you've done now, Randy?



75 - 80 I'd say. 



bryanr2 said:


> Clearly Randy, you have the 261 figured out. Are you seeing the same power increase out of the 362cm once ported?



I think so.....but we need dyno testing.


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## MustangMike

If U need a volunteer saw, let me know.

ps I can't believe what those parts saws are going for!


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## Mastermind

I know.......crazy prices on fee bay


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## MasterMech

I still want to see one of Randy's 441s on the dyno. Unreal from stock to ported.

Hell I want to see a lot of things on the Dyno. Wish I had one to play with.


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## treesmith

There's Steven's 362rcm in the trading post, reckon that needs porting...


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## Joe Kidd

Mastermind said:


> The factory outlet is very restrictive on these......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainly because the screen is tiny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the screen isn't important to the end user, this is what I do.



I just did mine using a long taper 1/2" uni-bit. FYI for something quick when a screen's not required.


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## thomas1

Bump.


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## TK

thomas1 said:


> Bump.


In the trunk?


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## bryanr2

Thomas, 
I read 23 pages of this last night.... good stuff. noteworthy post # 479 and 532.


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## Mastermind

Bump for a friend wanting to port one of these.


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## fin460

I love a ported ms261, I'm looking forward to rereading this thread when I get time

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


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## Mastermind

I learned a lot from doing this thread.


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## Hunter beavers

Local store has the ms 261c for 529 or 261 cm for 599, help me decide.


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## USMC615

MS261 C-M and don't look back. Get'em to throw in an extra RS chain or saw box in the deal...they'll do it...and leave the store a happy M-Tronic camper. Get a 6-pk of Ultra synthetic mix and double the warranty as well.


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## Hunter beavers

So the cm is worth the extra 69?


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## blsnelling

I would go with the C as well.


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## MustangMike

Clarification, are we talking about a pre M-Tronic saw vs a M-Tronic saw or:

The new M-Tronic 261 vs the previous M-Tronic 261???

The new saw is about 1/2 lb lighter, and I doubt any stores still have non M-Tronic 261s in stock.

Since a 261 will often be used for limbing, I would go with the new - lighter saw if given the choice.


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## Hunter beavers

One store in my area still has a ms261-c model for 529 with a 20" bar or 519 with 18" in stock.


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## MustangMike

If the saw says "C" on the recoil cover, it is a C-M. I think there is some confusion here.


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## Hunter beavers

Thanks for the tip, I will go back and make sure it has the moronic.


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## USMC615

MustangMike said:


> If the saw says "C" on the recoil cover, it is a C-M. I think there is some confusion here.


Correct...as best I know. There was, and still may be, a MS-261 with no suffix designation, that was carb adjustable.


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## blsnelling

The 261 with a standard adjustable carb is a MS261. The MTronic version is a MS261C. The new version is not yet available in the US.


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## Hunter beavers

What is the new version? What are the new features?


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## MustangMike

It is about 1/2 lb lighter and has angled fins, and it may be available in some areas (and in Canada).

They made minor improvements to the air box design.

The biggest difference is the wt, the model # remains the same.

It is easily identifiable by the funky looking angled chain cover.

Most dealers will know nothing about it, but new versions of the 261 and 362 are out there, being produced in VA.


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## blsnelling

MustangMike said:


> .....new versions of the 261 and 362 are out there, being produced in VA.


Are you aware of any of the new 261s sold in the US?


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## MustangMike

I'm aware of a US dealer that have obtained one (I think it was the new 362). The dealers have not rec'd any notifications regarding the new saw, and Stihl will likely try to clear inventory before releasing them.


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## SCHallenger

MustangMike said:


> I'm aware of a US dealer that have obtained one (I think it was the new 362). The dealers have not rec'd any notifications regarding the new saw, and Stihl will likely try to clear inventory before releasing them.



I have seen & held the new 362 at my dealer's. It feels very nice, & is noticeably lighter than the previous model!


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## longbowch

MustangMike said:


> If the saw says "C" on the recoil cover, it is a C-M. I think there is some confusion here.


I thought the "c" meant comfort features, so on the pre cm models it could be the quick-stop brake feature. On other models it could be that or easy start or the tool less chain adjuster.


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## MustangMike

You are mixing what is on the saw and what is in the website, they do not correspond!

If the saw says "C", it is M-Tronic.


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## longbowch

What about a 251c?


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## MustangMike

I'm only familiar with the pro level saws, don't know what they do on the others.

A lot of what Stihl does is hard to comprehend, like confusion over R meaning Wrap or Rescue, etc., and L for square file chain????


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## longbowch

It is confusing. I say this because I saw a 261c on the shelf. It had the quick stop brake but an adjustable carb. This was a couple years ago. Should've taken a pic.


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## blsnelling

Then someone swapped the recoil model plate. All MS261Cs are MTronic.


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## hseII

longbowch said:


> What about a 251c?


"C" once stood for Comfort. 

Easy start and tool less tensioner come to mind.


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## MustangMike

Still does, in the website, but a C on the pro saw means it has M-Tronic (makes no sense).


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## El Moobs

Bump.


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## bryanr2

Consult your Doctor.:****you:


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## Tigdim

Hello, I have been prowling this site, since I first purchased my saws for cutting firewood 3 years ago. (MS261c and a MS170 for limbing)

First, I would like to say thanks to all the contributors to this great site. I have learned a lot and hope to learn more and begin to contribute as times goes on. 

Second, Now that my saws are out of warranty, I am looking at doing the muffler mod to my MS261c. I made the following prototype deflector out of a piece of SS square tubing and bent it as seen below. It turned out to be too long. So I made a second, but I don't have picture of that one yet since I asked a friend to tig weld the seams on the back for me. He has it right now.







I plan on having a spark screen under the deflector and using jacknuts to hold it on. (like rivnuts only a little different) 

Now to verify the information, I think, I have correct. 

Doing the muffler mod to the 261c, the m-tronic carb will compensate for the additional air flow and I will not need to re-tune the saw. All I will have to do is start the saw on full choke and let idle for 90 seconds then shut off without touching the throttle to reset the "computer". No need for a tack... just reset and enjoy the extra power... Correct?

Aaron


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## blsnelling

Tigdim said:


> Now to verify the information, I think, I have correct.
> 
> Doing the muffler mod to the 261c, the m-tronic carb will compensate for the additional air flow and I will not need to re-tune the saw. All I will have to do is start the saw on full choke and let idle for 90 seconds then shut off without touching the throttle to reset the "computer". No need for a tack... just reset and enjoy the extra power... Correct?
> 
> Aaron


That is exactly right.


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## KiwiBro

Sorry fellas, 4.5 pages exceeds my attention span so 45 is way beyond me. Can I just ask, how'd the stock new edition 261c compare to the modded?
Andrew is soon to test new modded 241c and 261c's so that will help answer a few more questions, but just keen to see where the modded 261c stood compared to a control.
Just curious, is all. I'll hopefully have my monkeyHammered 261c when/if Andrew is finished with it, and we'll all have a few more videos and another comparison to add to the knowledgebase, thanks to Andrew and Randy.


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## El Moobs

I never got a chance to run a new one against an old one. They just weren't here at the right times. 

You be sure to let me know what you think of it. 

Funny.....I just replaced a piston in a new type 261 that I did in April. The owner evidently straight gassed it.


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## KiwiBro

Hmm. Straight gassing an m-tronic. I bet that confused the hell out of the module. A "does my butt look big in this dress" moment for it. Damned whatever it does.

If you don't get any feedback from me consider the saw such a success Andrew refuses to put it down.


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## treesmith

A monkey hammered 261c is pretty damned special

warning - this sig causes splinters


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## Stihlman441

KiwiBro said:


> Sorry fellas, 4.5 pages exceeds my attention span so 45 is way beyond me. Can I just ask, how'd the stock new edition 261c compare to the modded?
> Andrew is soon to test new modded 241c and 261c's so that will help answer a few more questions, but just keen to see where the modded 261c stood compared to a control.
> Just curious, is all. I'll hopefully have my monkeyHammered 261c when/if Andrew is finished with it, and we'll all have a few more videos and another comparison to add to the knowledgebase, thanks to Andrew and Randy.


 
I did the vids today
Theres not much in it
First off thinking (with out checking times) the 241 is ported more aggressively than the 261
I *think* the 241 has had gutted stratto system and ported with Brad Snellings numbers.
Randy can tell us more.
Will post resolts soon.
Cheers


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## KiwiBro

Stihlman441 said:


> I did the vids today
> Theres not much in it
> First off thinking (with out checking times) the 241 is ported more aggressively than the 261
> I *think* the 241 has had gutted stratto system and ported with Brad Snellings numbers.
> Randy can tell us more.
> Will post resolts soon.
> Cheers


Thanks. In stock form, the 261 has an advantage, but if it loses that when both are modded, it would at least be consistent with what an earlier thread by Brad noted. I postulated that in dense timber the modded 261 might reclaim a bit of advantage over the 241, but perhaps not. It begs the question what are the differences to the way the two were modded and what might give rise to the loss of advanatge in the modded 261.

I may be holding onto my 241 and selling the 261 if there is not enough performance gain to justify keeping it. Had hoped to flick the 241 but might be the other way around.


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## Stihlman441

KiwiBro said:


> Thanks. In stock form, the 261 has an advantage, but if it loses that when both are modded, it would at least be consistent with what an earlier thread by Brad noted. I postulated that in dense timber the modded 261 might reclaim a bit of advantage over the 241, but perhaps not. It begs the question what are the differences to the way the two were modded and what might give rise to the loss of advanatge in the modded 261.
> 
> I may be holding onto my 241 and selling the 261 if there is not enough performance gain to justify keeping it. Had hoped to flick the 241 but might be the other way around.


 


KiwiBro said:


> Thanks. In stock form, the 261 has an advantage, but if it loses that when both are modded, it would at least be consistent with what an earlier thread by Brad noted. I postulated that in dense timber the modded 261 might reclaim a bit of advantage over the 241, but perhaps not. It begs the question what are the differences to the way the two were modded and what might give rise to the loss of advanatge in the modded 261.
> 
> I may be holding onto my 241 and selling the 261 if there is not enough performance gain to justify keeping it. Had hoped to flick the 241 but might be the other way around.


 

There is so many things to consider,depending on wood,what you use them for and so on.
Maybe put them both in your use and go from there.
I tryed to test them with as fair as base as possible,will explain in the thread.


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## KiwiBro

Yeah, will be putting a bit of time on the 261 before deciding which to keep.


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## El Moobs

The 241 is gutted, but with my numbers, and the 261 is not. I'd rather not gut them if at all possible for fuel economy, and less emissions, but on the 241, it just begs to be opened up.


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## blsnelling

In my experience, with the strato gutted on both, the 261 will be stronger than the 241, but by a very narrow margin. When you realize that they're a pound difference between them once fueled and ready to work, I just prefer the smaller saw. It really is personal preference. They're both great saws.


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## El Moobs

Your 261s really are fast Brad. I got to play with one at a GTG awhile back. It was very impressive. I think it was faster that the ones I do.


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## Tigdim

Well I finally got time to finish up the Muffler mod for mine... Hoping to give it a test run tomorrow night. I left the stock port alone, and the side port is currently .171 in^2. I have plenty of room to go bigger if needed. But Should be about 75% of the mufflers intake with both exhaust ports. I do have screens on both so like I said I may need to go bigger if I don't notice an improvement.

Fitment of the screen needs to be refined, Installed the deflector with Jackbolts and the gap is thicker than the screen... I also should have shortened up the over all length of the deflector. The edge of the hole for the bottom jackbolt cut into the radius so I have a small gap down there. 

I might just make a spacer to sandwich the screen to the body for now until I figure out if I should go bigger then try again with a slightly different deflector design.





Aaron


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## Tigdim

WOW, I would have never guessed how much of a difference the muffler mod makes on the 261C.

Its not that I was really skeptical of the muffler mod helping out... Its just I was not sure how noticeable it would be. 

I used to race RX-7s put on the the "Racing Beat" exhaust that claimed like 20% gains at the time... (now its up to 32%, It also requires a fuel cut defender because it allows the turbo to spool so much better from 7-8 psi to 10-11 if I remember correctly) At that time, that exhaust wowed me at the difference it made. 

This muffler mod was even better. I went out to the city dump today over lunch and cut up large chunks of miscellaneous wood.... before with moderate-heavy pressure I could bog the saw down in oak with the 18" bar fully buried and a freshly sharpened chain. Now with the 20" bar... it did not skip a beat just changed pitch and kept cutting! That is until I REALLY leaned on it!!! 

I liked the saw before... I really did not think it would make this big of a difference! Now I really want to send it Randy and have him work his magic... but that's not going to happen. My wife says I already have too many expensive hobbies...  Its not like I have that many... 

Just going to make time to adjust the squish, once the snow is too deep to cut on the farm. My wife is going to start referring to me as Tim Taylor again...








Aaron


----------



## sweetchuck

Mastermind said:


> The factory outlet is very restrictive on these......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainly because the screen is tiny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the screen isn't important to the end user, this is what I do.


----------



## sweetchuck

Mastermind said:


> Here's what I'm working on......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an unscreened deflector, silver brazed on and just the deflector is painted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one was done by someone else and has the whole muffler painted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the screened style I'm working on now. Remember, these big screws are temporary.


ok Im new to this site and the way it works but I believe ive got it figured out how to post now. May have posted blank replies sorry.My question is I have a brand new ms261 cm and looking at these muffler mods and cant quite tell if you put a hole and deflector on one side of the muffler do you also remove and bore out the screen inseret and screw. Do you do both or just one?


----------



## MustangMike

Welcome to the site. Randy (Mastermind) ports saws, and ported saws need a much larger exhaust opening.

On a stock saw, a smaller hole would be more appropriate. The M-Tronic system will adjust for it (but may give you a few fits while doing it).

If you pull the cover and remove the screen the factory hole will function much better. Then, If you drill a hole on the opposite side, you will need to add a deflector to keep it from warming your hand.

I would just add a 1/4" hole to the cover on the same side, close to the seam (as far away from the front as possible). Look before you drill to make sure it will vent clear of any obstructions. Make sure you remove all filings before you re install it. (You will not need a deflector for this mod).

That is the first step to waking the saw up a bit, good luck & enjoy.


----------



## DexterDay

Ported or Not, I like to open them up a lot. I've thrown the % to exhaust port rule out. I have a MS 250 I got for next to nothing and it's a little screamer now that it's been opened up and retuned!


----------



## blsnelling

DexterDay said:


> I've thrown the % to exhaust port rule out.


Me too!!!


----------



## MustangMike

Some saws like it, some don't.


----------



## DexterDay

blsnelling said:


> Me too!!!



After some of the muff mods I've seen at GTG's (including one without the front cover)!! I'm with the go big or go home bunch!!


----------

