# FS fallers



## forestryworks (Sep 21, 2008)

i got a friend who's a class A faller here in TX and he's with a crew workin' on the blow down and clean up in the houston area...

got a phone call from him to see how things were going

then the subject of dogs on the 441, 460, etc.came up

he said those guys take the dogs off... 

way to make yourself work harder once that chain
gets the least bit dull


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## 2dogs (Sep 21, 2008)

AS is the only place I have ever heard of someone using the dogs to make a dull chain cut. I would never had thought of that. The heat built up must be extreme.

I guess even FS fallers don't know how to use the dogs in falling.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 22, 2008)

I heard sharpening the chain helps. Dogs= saw leverage, sharp or not


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 22, 2008)

To me it is pointless to continue sawing if my chain is dull. If I replace or sharpen the chain, I will get my cuts done quickly and will be home much sooner.

If I try to continue cutting with a dull chain, I will be there forever!

In one case I had a newly sharpened chain, I made two cuts and my chain became dull. I stopped right there and replaced my chain.


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## Nikko (Sep 22, 2008)

I s'pose dawgs could help you power through a cut using a dull chain, but I always considered them to be a way for fallers to save energy and let the saw do the work. Using dawgs buried in bark means you only have to impart effort in one direction (pulling "up" against the dawgs). If you're falling/bucking without dawgs, you actually have to "push" the saw through the cut and this involves many changes in the angle of "pressure" you apply to a saw. Motion like this is tiring. Tiredness leads to low productivity and accidents. The dawgs stay on my saws and I let the saw do the work...

Nikko


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## forestryworks (Sep 22, 2008)

notice i said least bit dull... which does not imply the chain is dull

watch your chips, they go from big (freshly sharpened or ground chain)
to smaller and smaller as the cutters lose their edge, then it's just dust

i swap out or resharpen just after the cutters lose their edge


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## slowp (Sep 22, 2008)

Perhaps a definition is needed.

Class A means they are allowed to fall trees up to 12 inches diameter.

Class B means up to 24 inches.

Class C, no diameter restrictions.

I'm a Class B Bucker, --up to 24 inches. After that, it gets too hard to roll it off the roads. 

The card you get when you do the above, is green. So, we can say we have green cards.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 23, 2008)

FW, of course you know. And, anyone who's ever bucked more than one log on the landing knows what a "least bit dull" chain is. Keep the chips a flyin'.


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## Greenbay (Sep 23, 2008)

I've worked as a FS faller and trained saw crews for the FS. Never have I or anyone that trained me said for any reason to take the dogs off a saw and then use it. I'm not sure what it would possibly help.


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## slowp (Sep 23, 2008)

Greenbay said:


> I've worked as a FS faller and trained saw crews for the FS. Never have I or anyone that trained me said for any reason to take the dogs off a saw and then use it. I'm not sure what it would possibly help.



I got told that I should get bigger dogs on the saw by the saw guys. I might have to try it out since they advised it. Already got a big lab.


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## hammerlogging (Sep 24, 2008)

slowp said:


> I got told that I should get bigger dogs on the saw by the saw guys. I might have to try it out since they advised it. Already got a big lab.



I've got a cat named Esau (Old Testament names-good for pets). His name evolved to sawdog without even realizing the coincidence till some time later. Now hes aptly called fatty. Stout enough to give you a good grip on the log though, if you want him, hes yours.


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## slowp (Sep 24, 2008)

Nope thank you. I'm allergic to kitties. We'll probably get bigger dogs for Twinkle. The blowdown season is coming up quickly. My used dog came named Benjaman (I can't even spell it) Ben! is easy to yell. I kept his original name--less change. Now back to sawdogs.  Do you use them much for small wood?


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## smokechase II (Sep 24, 2008)

*assist*

*"AS is the only place I have ever heard of someone using the dogs to make a dull chain cut."*

I believe he is referring to 'sharp' dogs.

They help the chain actually cut with a p*e*rticular technique. 
They're not just for leverage ya' know.


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## smokechase II (Sep 24, 2008)

*Yokes on me*

*"I've worked as a FS faller and trained saw crews for the FS. Never have I or anyone that trained me said for any reason to take the dogs off a saw and then use it. I'm not sure what it would possibly help."*

------------

Lots of folks do just that. 
Small timber cutters.
Saves money on bars/chains, more power and less sharpening time.


=================

Now those of you reading this have to figure out which of my two posts was a joke.


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## smokechase II (Sep 24, 2008)

*Quick correction*

Class A means they are allowed to fall trees up to 12 inches diameter.

Class B means up to 24 inches.

Class C, no diameter restrictions.

==========

*Class A is up to 8 inches*


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## 2dogs (Sep 24, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> *"I've worked as a FS faller and trained saw crews for the FS. Never have I or anyone that trained me said for any reason to take the dogs off a saw and then use it. I'm not sure what it would possibly help."*
> 
> ------------
> 
> ...




I think all of your posts are a joke! Phhtttt.


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## Humptulips (Sep 25, 2008)

slowp said:


> Perhaps a definition is needed.
> 
> Class A means they are allowed to fall trees up to 12 inches diameter.
> 
> ...



Leave it to the government to come up with something like this. So what do you do when you come to a tree out of your class? Quit for the day. Looney!


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## slowp (Sep 25, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Leave it to the government to come up with something like this. So what do you do when you come to a tree out of your class? Quit for the day. Looney!



We go back into the office and have a coffee break! No matter what size it is, and I'm talking about what I do, which is bucking, if I don't like it, I won't cut it. I've called on the radio for help with a few trees that were across our main roads and were trickier than what I'm used to. In the winter, it can be hard to find somebody to come out and help, so if it isn't needed to be cut at that moment, I will slap woodcutting paint on it, and if it is a Doug-fir, and not too knotty, the woodcutters will whittle it out. Like I said, bigger than 24 inches is getting too hard to roll off the road!


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 26, 2008)

In the book "Professional Timber Falling", the author frequently says...

"LEAVE IT!"

And I agree. You don't *have* to cut anything and you don't *have* to cut anything right now. If you don't feel comfortable with a situation, leave it! If I was the boss man and a worker decided to not cut something, I would say "Good boy!"


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## hammerlogging (Sep 27, 2008)

unless your boss explains that if you don't cut it then the hooketender will have to,and since you're a cutter and much better, you'd better cut it, so the hooktender don't get killed.

Some trees are too dangerous, period. But... rare. Sometimes you can think about or look at an individual tree many many times before you get to it, eventually you figure it out- the safest way to do it, like a puzzle, with serious consequences. Don cha know.


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## slowp (Sep 27, 2008)

The Curse of the Hooktenders! They usually don't have any wedges and also have to use _*The Crew Saw*_! The last guy had a saw with a bent bar. But I felt safe being nearby because the tree had a definite lean and he was sending it that way. 

Did I mention that we don't have fresh donuts when we go in and drink coffee? This is a rural area and we don't have a bakery because of septic/sewer issues. We have to rough it and have Hostess if we want donuts. 

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Greenbay (Sep 27, 2008)

For the faller classes and diameter restrictions, A is just like an apprentice and have to be supervised. (not necessarily having someone right over their shoulder but have a higher class feller in the field with them) B's can work without supervision and supervise A's, while cutting up to 24" dbh. If they are working with C fellers they can normally cut bigger than 24" but sometimes run their plan by a C feller. Same with A's they can cut more than 8" but the main thing is always to know your limits and don't cut if you think it's too risky.


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## Humptulips (Sep 27, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> unless your boss explains that if you don't cut it then the hooketender will have to,and since you're a cutter and much better, you'd better cut it, so the hooktender don't get killed.
> 
> Some trees are too dangerous, period. But... rare. Sometimes you can think about or look at an individual tree many many times before you get to it, eventually you figure it out- the safest way to do it, like a puzzle, with serious consequences. Don cha know.



My experience, I would get all the tough ones and I'm not just talking about dangerous. Bad lays or a lot of dirt, runaways and bad leans near a line or creek, even seen em left because of bees at the stump.
Why does this happen? IMHO some fallers are just lazy, not all but some. Nobody takes responsibility for watching these guys strips and as long as they cut cheap they keep a job. They don't get canned until they create a huge SNAFU. I could tell you about a few of them, like the time I ended up cutting over 300 trees in an 80 acre unit or the guy that fell for 2 days worth of timber down the hill into standing timber and never bucked a single tree. This was 5 and 6 foot hemlock and white fir so they weren't moving without bucking. I can't even count the number of root wads I bucked off.

Don't give me this curse of the hooktender stuff. It's CURSE OF THE TIMBER FALLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, I'm calmed down now.Hey, I've seen some of the best cutters around but seen some bad ones too.


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## slowp (Sep 28, 2008)

When I worked here before, and the mill had it's own logging crew, they made the fallers come back and work the landing. It seems they had not bucked or limbed the trees properly, and the chaser needed help. 

One unit that was yarded this year was felled the wrong way and the yarding crew had a beastly time getting the logs out. But, I'm still leery of hooktenders!


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## John Ellison (Sep 28, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> My experience, I would get all the tough ones and I'm not just talking about dangerous. Bad lays or a lot of dirt, runaways and bad leans near a line or creek, even seen em left because of bees at the stump.
> Why does this happen? IMHO some fallers are just lazy, not all but some. Nobody takes responsibility for watching these guys strips and as long as they cut cheap they keep a job. They don't get canned until they create a huge SNAFU. I could tell you about a few of them, like the time I ended up cutting over 300 trees in an 80 acre unit or the guy that fell for 2 days worth of timber down the hill into standing timber and never bucked a single tree. This was 5 and 6 foot hemlock and white fir so they weren't moving without bucking. I can't even count the number of root wads I bucked off.
> 
> Don't give me this curse of the hooktender stuff. It's CURSE OF THE TIMBER FALLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



Yep, for some fallers a Russian coupling is S.O.P. They think that the yarders can just rip them right off. Or the only ones that are bucked clean thru are fell out of the unit and take a four choker tag. At least a season in the rigging ought to be a requirement for timber cutters.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 6, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> My experience, I would get all the tough ones and I'm not just talking about dangerous. Bad lays or a lot of dirt, runaways and bad leans near a line or creek, even seen em left because of bees at the stump.
> Why does this happen? IMHO some fallers are just lazy, not all but some. Nobody takes responsibility for watching these guys strips and as long as they cut cheap they keep a job. They don't get canned until they create a huge SNAFU. I could tell you about a few of them, like the time I ended up cutting over 300 trees in an 80 acre unit or the guy that fell for 2 days worth of timber down the hill into standing timber and never bucked a single tree. This was 5 and 6 foot hemlock and white fir so they weren't moving without bucking. I can't even count the number of root wads I bucked off.
> 
> Don't give me this curse of the hooktender stuff. It's CURSE OF THE TIMBER FALLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


You do know bees can kill people.


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## Humptulips (Oct 6, 2008)

Ivan H. said:


> You do know bees can kill people.



Hook tenders are people too. Sometimes you get sick of cleaning up other peoples messes. Try this, do your job and don't leave it for someone else.


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## joesawer (Oct 7, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Hook tenders are people too. Sometimes you get sick of cleaning up other peoples messes. Try this, do your job and don't leave it for someone else.



I know exactly what you mean. I have often had to go clean up after other fallers, it sucks cleaning up some ones mess after they have cherry picked it or just left a mess in general.
I really don't mind getting a few here and there that they left because of safety or skill level issues, but I hate climbing through a jackstraw in order to cut one out of every 5 or 10 trees and trying to get their hangers down. The bad thing is that some people just don't understand why it should pay extra to clean up behind some half baked wanabe.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 7, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> Hook tenders are people too. Sometimes you get sick of cleaning up other peoples messes. Try this, do your job and don't leave it for someone else.



That's true ,but if the bees get after you no one's going to keep cutting. their going to run You either got to smoke the bees out .the forester probably don't want you to put chemicals on them. The fallers should do their job,they make good money,but I don't know any fallers that like bees.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 7, 2008)

humptulips, I can imagine what you've been left behind to deal with. Hard to find good workers these days? Is it really harder these days than in the past?

I've been on crews where I would cut 70% of the timber but if another faller would come in they would sneek straight to the gravy I'd been saving for a day I needed/deserved it, like to get ahead, or cause I wanted to really cruise/flow that day, then not enough even finish around the edges nitpicking out the hard stuff, left for me. Do these people know how sorry they are? I think some know they act like this, others do it subconsciously. Or am i the stupid one, for saving gravy stands?

Bees- if its really a problem I've always gone back to that tree first thing in the morning before they can stir (cold) or kill em one day and go back to the tree the next. But I was raised right (and it seems to have mostly worked, except, for instance, getting into this line of work). But, I'm talking about yellowjackets here.

I agree about a cutter working the rigging to know how to make a job better for all. What I like to see most, is a team effort. Its all about getting the wood on the truck right? Anyone workling with atleast one other person needs to be doing their job, but also, nearly tied with this primary function, needs to be facilitating the work of others. I hate the selfish/lazy mentality.


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## slowp (Oct 7, 2008)

What I run into, are smallish trees left standing. I'll go try to catch the fallers and find out why--I'm really curious when the good guys leave them. They explain, I look and learn, and I'd rather see those trees left standing than hung up. The smaller stuff being cut here is limb locked with a leave tree every once in a while, and they'll leave them if the trees are along the boundary, where there aren't any trees to drive the cut tree over with. Once there was an explanation, I understand and it isn't a big deal. I do not care to have to wander all over the place to keep out of the way of hangups. 

There is definitely a problem when I find chunks all over the place. That cutter needs more supervision and shouldn't be working alone. Unfortunately, private industry seems to be doing the same thing as the FS, hiring fewer people and not much on the ground training for them.


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## tek9tim (Oct 7, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> i got a friend who's a class A faller here in TX and he's with a crew workin' on the blow down and clean up in the houston area...
> 
> got a phone call from him to see how things were going
> 
> ...



Funny, we put _bigger_ dogs on ours. 



Humptulips said:


> Leave it to the government to come up with something like this. So what do you do when you come to a tree out of your class? Quit for the day. Looney!



Yeah, it's like Greenbay said. What it comes down to is that the Gov. doesn't trust people to have decent enough judgement as to what they can fall, so they have a tiered system. Year after year, people prove they lack the proper judgment. Of course, most accidents/fatalities are with 14-18 inch diameter trees, regardless of the faller's qualifications. I think it's a pretty decent system, but maybe that's because I'm a supervisor and I don't like to think about some of my people cutting big trees, or because I'm a C, it's all up to me as to what I cut. And yeah, when I was a B, I felled and bucked stuff that was bigger than 24", without a C faller around. BUT, only if it was really simple, and my risk of getting injured was really low. If I did injure myself, I would have been all on my own for fixing myself up since I was performing outside of my scope of experience/qualifications. Most (ok, maybe just half) agency fire crews have at least 1 C-faller on them, so if there's something big/nasty they come across, there's usually somebody who'll do something about it. There's nothing I love more than firing up a saw somebody else packed into (and will be packing it back out of) a hole to fall a big tree. Makes the cat herding all worthwhile.


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## Humptulips (Oct 7, 2008)

Ivan H. said:


> That's true ,but if the bees get after you no one's going to keep cutting. their going to run You either got to smoke the bees out .the forester probably don't want you to put chemicals on them. The fallers should do their job,they make good money,but I don't know any fallers that like bees.



Don't really mind the bee thing as much as others. I've seen the time when I had to fall the tree, choke it and then run to the landing to unhook it. Only thing that made it worthwhile was thinking about the scalers when they rolled the load out at the mill. Ah, the evil hooktender comes to the surface.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 8, 2008)

Your definitly right .You would think the company look after there crew,and where is the forester when allthis is going on?Your right about the bees to,there not as aggressive in the morning when it's cooler.


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## HolmenTree (Oct 8, 2008)

Back to the original question of running dogs. Back in my cut and skid days in small/medium timber, we ran no dogs on our 70cc saws,just got in the way when limbing. With a properly sharpened chain the saw sucks into the tree while falling anyways. We had a Swede instructor from Husqvarna demonstrate the 6 point limbing technique to our crew once. With no dogs on his 266 he was pretty amazing in handling that saw. But then we realized loggers in Sweden are paid by the hour and we in Canada only worked piecework. Our 6 point technique was backblading the tree's limbs with the skidder and clipping the stray limbs and then the top with the saw.
Today in my tree service jobs I always run dogs, different kind of work.


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## Humptulips (Oct 8, 2008)

In my hooking days I hated to see a saw on a side without a good set of dogs. Those wimpy dogs really suck for notching stumps.


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## smokechase II (Oct 8, 2008)

*bigger*

The bigger the timber the bigger the dogs *need* to be.

A simple thought is where the dog free cutting is advocated the strongest is where the timber is the smallest. Scandinavia.

Also with the open face technique on the slanting cut on the face the use of dogs is occasionally difficult. Depending on what side you are cutting.

Moderately thick bark can be a good reason for the longer spikes too.

------------

Most of that six point limbing technique that Holmentree mentions simply has no place on a big stem that is being walked out and knots bumped from a standing position. 
Did someone mention bar length?


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## Ivan H. (Oct 9, 2008)

slowp said:


> What I run into, are smallish trees left standing. I'll go try to catch the fallers and find out why--I'm really curious when the good guys leave them. They explain, I look and learn, and I'd rather see those trees left standing than hung up. The smaller stuff being cut here is limb locked with a leave tree every once in a while, and they'll leave them if the trees are along the boundary, where there aren't any trees to drive the cut tree over with. Once there was an explanation, I understand and it isn't a big deal. I do not care to have to wander all over the place to keep out of the way of hangups.
> 
> There is definitely a problem when I find chunks all over the place. That cutter needs more supervision and shouldn't be working alone. Unfortunately, private industry seems to be doing the same thing as the FS, hiring fewer people and not much on the ground training for them.



Probably.


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## 056 kid (Oct 13, 2008)

A saw without dogs or diggers as my co-worker would call them is just not a saw!!!


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## forestryworks (Oct 13, 2008)

a saw without dogs is alot of work!


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## .aspx (Oct 14, 2008)

slowp said:


> Now back to sawdogs.  Do you use them much for small wood?



Dogs make bucking logs a little easier (and more fun) no matter what the size. Straighter cuts imo.

When I used to own a 310 I'd find that the end of the logs would tend to look like Gumby's head when the chain started to get dull.

1 dog on the inside, no outer.

Hope that answers your question. If not see attached document.


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## 2dogs (Oct 15, 2008)

Dang FS fallers! SC, that you?


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2008)

Maybe they got a new Chevy pickup and it didn't have enough clearance to get anywhere plus it had 2 ply tires and the fleet people wouldn't listen so they took care of it! 

Actually, that was sent around on the intranet as a safety message to watch out where you park at fires. I think it is the one where a tree burned through and clobbered the rig just after they'd gotten out to look at something.


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## Burvol (Oct 15, 2008)

HolmenTree said:


> Back to the original question of running dogs. Back in my cut and skid days in small/medium timber, we ran no dogs on our 70cc saws,just got in the way when limbing. With a properly sharpened chain the saw sucks into the tree while falling anyways. We had a Swede instructor from Husqvarna demonstrate the 6 point limbing technique to our crew once. With no dogs on his 266 he was pretty amazing in handling that saw. But then we realized loggers in Sweden are paid by the hour and we in Canada only worked piecework. Our 6 point technique was backblading the tree's limbs with the skidder and clipping the stray limbs and then the top with the saw.
> Today in my tree service jobs I always run dogs, different kind of work.



I think we determined that back in your days, the timber was small as hell, and I bet dogs would get in the way of an 18" bar! That is rich!


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## Bushler (Oct 15, 2008)

I worked on a fire years ago, falling snags. One of the FS dignitaries took me out on a road where a big loose bark snag was burning...he wanted me to fall it. I told him nooooooo. Then he tried to get me to let him fall it with my saw...I again said noooooooo.

While we were arguing over who was in charge of what, the snag shed its bark, (burning bark) and clearly would have buried him and my saw had I allowed him to continue.

He was pretty quiet on the ride back to camp.


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## smokechase II (Oct 15, 2008)

*Kitson Fire*

Smashed vehicle wasn't me.

What I did hear was that they had just parked.
Heard the cracking and spliting noises that were very loud.
Just barely saving their own ass they became 20 years younger and more mobile.

Another vehicle had just left that area moments before.

Sorry excuse for a government employee if you ask me.
Not throwing themselves on their rig to protect taxpayer dollars from a little western oregon fir.

=============

Kitson fire was near oakridge oregon just a couple weeks back.

===========

Trivia;
never have hit a pard, outhouse, vehicle, picnic table, power line or septic field. Yet.
Got 11 working days until retirement then everyone is safe.


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## 2dogs (Oct 15, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Trivia;
> never have hit a pard, outhouse, vehicle, picnic table, power line or septic field. Yet.
> Got 11 working days until retirement then everyone is safe.



Well with Collyfornia on fire again maybe the FS will send you down here for some fun before you hang it all up.


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## Ivan H. (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm just woundering why they didn't hear the saws running? THat's a good way to get smashed


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## slowp (Oct 15, 2008)

Ivan H. said:


> I'm just woundering why they didn't hear the saws running? THat's a good way to get smashed



NO SAWS were involved. The tree, like trees do when burned, fell on its own accord, like trees do in fires, and hit the rig. Unfortunately, I've seen this happen to a crewperson on the line. I think they were ok. The tree fell and it looked like the branches grazed the person, but it was enough to sent them summersaulting down the hill. We immediately were told to go ahead and dig line in the young plantation instead of along the burning old growth, and then we torched or blacked out the plantation that was inside the line. 

I've worked at night--wouldn't do it now, and was scared most of the time cuz snags were falling around us and we could hear them but couldn't see them. No saws needed.


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## Gologit (Oct 15, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Well with Collyfornia on fire again maybe the FS will send you down here for some fun before you hang it all up.



Send him over here. We're back on Red Flag days again.


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## 2dogs (Oct 15, 2008)

Yep, the crew was shut down the last two days.


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## tek9tim (Oct 16, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> Smashed vehicle wasn't me.
> 
> What I did hear was that they had just parked.
> Heard the cracking and spliting noises that were very loud.
> ...



I can't seem to find much more info than this... 

Anybody have any insider info as to how active the fire was when it happened? Had to have been dang near down to the patrol stage by then, everything else in the northwest was. Anybody have any idea what the guy's quals were? I bring this up with all due respect, I just got curious since most regular fire folks don't usually drive Explorers. 

Pretty interesting, one thing I read did say that the tree had been previously determined to be sound enough to leave standing. I'll happily stand up to accusations of being a sport faller in exchange for never feeling the guilt of passing up a tree that was within my skill level that ends up killing somebody.


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## 2dogs (Oct 16, 2008)

I stole the image from here.

http://wildlandfire.com/


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## tek9tim (Oct 17, 2008)

2dogs said:


> I stole the image from here.
> 
> http://wildlandfire.com/



Yeah, everything I can find on it seems to have the same paragraph of info that came out right after it happened. Seems to be the case every time anything happens in fire. An email gets sent out to all FS employees, a little later the same info gets released to the press, there are tons of questions that everybody has about it, but the full story rarely seems to get released.


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## slowp (Oct 17, 2008)

Here's what we got with that picture on our E-Mail. I will not include names.

_Hi all. Just passing along a sobering reminder about how quickly and how badly (could have been a lot worse) being in the wrong place at the wrong time on a wildfire can be.

Blank Blank poses atop what's left of his vehicle after a fire weakened Douglas Fir broke off and fell onto the road where he and another firefighter had just parked to check out some of the fire. They heard the tree crack as they stepped out and ran hard to get away. This was truly a close call. Another vehicle had pulled away from this spot a few seconds before.

This is on the Kitson Fire, on the Willamette National Forest. It happened about 4:30 PM on September 26, 2008._


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