# who dominates this industry?



## Darin (Apr 5, 2001)

I was talking to a guy today that posed an interesting question: Where do you see the arborist industry going? In your opinion, how many Arborists are strickly arborists? In other words, are there a lot of landscapers doing arborist type work? If so, has that trend been growing in recent years? 
I personally, when I sold equipment saw the number rise. I think the education on this subject has dropped significantly. Some landscapers know there stuff, but some are just out to make a buck. Arborists arent alone. Some know what there doing (majority) some don't. Are landscapers taking work away from arborists? Is the do-it-all business taking over?

I thought these were very valid and interesting questions and would like some feedback from both sides if possible.
Darin


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## Deere John (Apr 6, 2001)

I am a professional forester, as you know. My training is in the management of trees at the tree stand level. We received little direct training on individual tree maintenance. However, I was interested in urban forestry prior to starting my post-secondary education, and I have continued to educate myself.

In my market, there are three "professional" tree maintenance people. I count myself in the three, though I only do tree work occasionally. The balance that I see are landscapers, lawnservice people, sign installers (with truck) and even roofers and wet basement specialists. The landscapers advertize tree work, the balance are primarily opportunists who will cut or prune when a tree is in the way or they can make a quick buck. I have cleaned up some of the damage they left on people's property, and I suppose they are operating with neither any appreciation, training nor insurance.

WRT your question Darin, we three "pros" have been around for years. No new blood is entering, in fact, I'm back in forestry. More people are out of work, a so called life-time job is not the norm now, so I figure there will be more multi-discipline (to be nice) people doing tree work in the short, 5-10 year term.

In the longer term, I suspect tree-cutting bylaws and our liability/court system will make the use of pros more of a necessity. That would be good for both us and the trees.

Others?


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## Eric E. (Apr 7, 2001)

There is a difference between arborists and tree cutters. Most people in the "tree business" are not arborists. The guy who spikes while pruning, tops trees, flush cuts, etc is not an arborist. 
Eric


[Edited by Eric E. on 04-08-2001 at 03:24 PM]


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## Darin (Apr 8, 2001)

I guess I used arborists as a general term but what I basically mean is are lanscapers or actual tree services doing the majority of the work?


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## Ray Morneau (Apr 19, 2001)

Hey, Darin - Eric - Mr. Deere - et alii:

ARBORIST - what a broad concept. You guys are on the right track ... don't get too narrow in your thinking.

Our industry will be "driven" at several different levels. The "public" will continue to look (for the most part) to the lowest common denominator of the green industry, the startup (the gardener, the chainsaw-n-pickup, the "forester" who worked a summer for Georgia-Pacific ('cuz I can't spell Weyerhauser)).

Yep, don't mean to demean the startup -- I used to be one. We are all in this together ... the startups and the old-timers. (Oh, oh - never thought of myself as an old-timer!)

The gardener/landscapers will continue to plant and prune the most trees -- wrecking their havoc upon them by planting them too deep, over-watering them, and stubbing them back -- maybe even climbing them with gaffs if the specimens get too tall to reach from ladders?!?!?! But they can learn, and some will, and a few will progress.

And, the technical removals (over houses and in postage-stamp backyards) will be performed by "experts" beyond gardeners. The difficult diagnosis, detailed analysis, and problem appraisals will be done by more experienced personnel (if the client can/will pay the fee).

One might say the (over-)mature specimen declining at the hands of the gardener/landscaper would do better under the care of a "real" professional! -- but would it??

The future, as so many generations before us have said -- The future lies in the youth. The sapling. The startup. It is up to us who have been around the block to do what we can to promote and encourage the saplings and the startups with the best support we can provide. That's what will REALLY drive our industry!

(Yeah, just my 2 cents worth.)
[email protected]


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## Deere John (Apr 20, 2001)

I like your thinking Ray - I have always said that it takes a mature customer to allow a business to grow. Otherwise, you are working for the lowest common denominator and you will not generate the profit (as opposed to being cash positive, but that's another story) necessary to allow you to develop your self and service.

I never did very well on the lowest common denominator. I never won one tender offered by public "social" agencies because they had no concept of the skill or overhead involved in running an "apparently" simple business. It got to the point that I would not even submit a bit, because half the time they wanted it done on the cheap, the other half they wanted to get a price so their husband could undercut that tender abit and do the work on the weekend.

My best customers are the three that I still have to this day. One keeps me on a retainer (!) and has been one of my more enjoyable accounts. I guess there will always be the guys scooping the trees on the front lawns for $100 a pop. I don't mind the back yard ones for more reasonable rewards.


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## Ssouth (Apr 25, 2001)

Darin, Hey I saw you post on Lawn Site and thought I would give you some perspective on how my company deals with trees. 
For the most part I will only take off small limbs that hang low and get in the way of my mowing services. Having said this I have several accounts in a nice small town (happens to be the oldest town in Alabama and was a town before Alabama was a state). Here they have professional aborist come in and cut old or nuisance limbs once a year. I would imagine some of the trees out there are over 100 yrs. old and I would not dare cut on them. Several of the homes have cables on limbs to swing them away from the home if they do happen to fall. I have had several limbs fall that where bigger than most trees and I have cut them up and hauled them away which is part of my contract with the home owners. Being in the landscaping and lawn maintenance industry I will cut trees down by owners request but will only do so if it's part of a larger job. I feel the "true" aborist have much much much more knowledge than I do and I will let you guys deal with trees and I will cut the grass and do the landscaping. So to answer you question, I will do just about any job except for pruing mature trees and I hope I never have you job. [I'M TOO SCARED OF HEIGHTS]


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## CSRA Landscaping (Apr 26, 2001)

*Ditto!*

I'm in the same situation as Ssouth, minus the ancient trees. I know virtually nothing about trees. I would, however, enjoy being able to capitalize on the opportunity afforded to me by them and heights do not really bother me. I see several landscapers picking up these jobs, and not a few truck n chainsaw outfits.


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## kris (Apr 26, 2001)

Hello Darin

Thanks for you posting on lawnsite..I will now read here to learn... We use qualified subs to help us out..possibly some day we will have our own division. For now we are quite happy with the way it is..we send them work and they do the same... Good luck in 2001


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Darin said:


> I was talking to a guy today that posed an interesting question: Where do you see the arborist industry going? In your opinion, how many Arborists are strickly arborists? In other words, are there a lot of landscapers doing arborist type work? If so, has that trend been growing in recent years?
> I personally, when I sold equipment saw the number rise. I think the education on this subject has dropped significantly. Some landscapers know there stuff, but some are just out to make a buck. Arborists arent alone. Some know what there doing (majority) some don't. Are landscapers taking work away from arborists? Is the do-it-all business taking over?
> 
> I thought these were very valid and interesting questions and would like some feedback from both sides if possible.
> Darin



I would like to bring this up again!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Has regulations changed the way things were back when this was first posted?
Jeff


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## limbwalker54 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Just Do It RIGHT!*

Long story short.....some of you know the detail in how I came into the tree care industry.....but in a nutshell, after my childhood lawn/landscape business progressed, I developed a love for trees more than anything. I had pursued education to better myself in the landscape field (Landscape Architecture/Horticulture education). But when I realized I loved trees more than taking care of properties or designing and building landscapes, I slowly began to pursue education in the arboriculture field. I was taken under another arborists "wing" for four years, learning proper tree care, climbing, rigging, plant health care. We did everything from root collar excavations to removals over 33KV (he is line clearance certified). I always believed that if you are going to earn money in a field, you BETTER KNOW THAT FIELD and RESPECT THOSE WHO KNOW THEIR STUFF IN THAT FIELD! The green industry in general has a tendency to attract those who wish to just capitalize on the lack of the general public's knowledge as to the correct methods to design, build, maintain any landscape or urban forest.......
It is very sad.

When I learned to cut grass....I was eight....I started my business with a nice Lawnboy that I fixed up.... I didn't cut hedges, I didn't mulch, I didn't do anything except cut grass...my grandfather trained me to do this correctly. 

When he thought I was ready, he taught me how to properly prune shrubs and small trees (with my felco #7's and loppers, and a handsaw). He taught me the difference between shearing and proper pruning.....

The main thing I learned back then was to do it right, and if you didn't know what you were doing....research it, learn from someone how to do it right, then pursue it.

So many times I look at the "landscapers" in my area and wonder if they even know how a blade of grass grows! Do they know how to plant a tree or bush without burying the root collar? Do they know what a root collar is???

I wonder this of the many "tree guys" in the area too...with all of the topping, and the bad cuts, and the over elevation, and the notion that "thinning" means stripping out the interior branches on a tree?? (This of course is NOT how to thin....)

I don't mean to rant, but there are a lot of good tree services in my area that employ proper arboricultural techniques, and are educated. 
We are one of them. 
If someone asks me to top a tree....I explain why its bad. I educate them. If they don't take my advice, then someone else who is a "tree service" gets the job.....
And that's fine.
Anyone who seeks advice from us will not hear bull**** If we don't know the answer, we research it and find it....not make something up....

I am certain that if the true arborists continue to educate the public one person at a time, one tree at a time, that the industry will progress in a positive manner. 
We are arborists. We continually pursue education to advance ourselves in the industry, as well as contribute our findings TO the industry. 
By doing this, we earn money while caring for one of the worlds greatest assets: Trees.

If a guy buys a welder and sticks stuff together long enough for the customer to pay him...does that make him a welder???? 

If you throw a walk behind in your station wagon...are you a landscaper?

You should not be allowed to mulch if you do not know the purpose of mulching......

I could go on and on....

I don't mind anyone who starts out with small equipment. But for goodness sake....pick up a book before you cut that limb.....know why it is good to bisect the branch bark collar and ridge.....its not just because "the water runs off...."


-My fourteen cents......


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Wow! Feel the passion!
Jeff


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## Darin (Dec 30, 2010)

WOW, got two 10 year old posts brought back to life today.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Darin said:


> WOW, got two 10 year old posts brought back to life today.


 
I think it is a pertinent question still.
Jeff 
Starting with a company that doesn't trim above 14 feet or a company that believes in an arborist taking over structure pruning.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Darin said:


> WOW, got two 10 year old posts brought back to life today.


 
You used to be more inter-active and ask great questions. Just saying.
Jeff


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## Darin (Dec 30, 2010)

Wouldn't be the first time.


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## Darin (Dec 30, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> You used to be more inter-active and ask great questions. Just saying.
> Jeff


I used to be single and have no kids too!!!


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 30, 2010)

Darin said:


> I used to be single and have no kids too!!!


 
ARG! You got me there!
Jeff


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## Darin (Dec 30, 2010)

Well at least I didn't have kids....I have been married for 13 years....you got me back.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 30, 2010)

*Good read*

I as many of you know started my careen in line clearance. I worked 20 plus years in that field before leaving due to new management issues. I have been really struggling in this economy and am about to sell out and go to work for someone most likely. I have been studying for arborist certification and feel I could pass in short term but am merely scratching the surface of what I would like to learn. Here in my state there is less opportunity than in many areas of the nation. I have applied as a forest tech this week but really could understand if I were not considered. I have looked into some of their duties and would certainly need training and study just to be entry level. I know I could learn to do it but cruising timber is more than what I expected. Unfortunately we can't go back and re-do our mistakes. I intend to get certified and if I sell the farm and most of my business may go to school for a degree. I am trying to crunch the numbers at the many thousands lost in my business and getting a good job offsetting it before retirement. I did not really know what I wanted to learn in high school and was immature for much of my early adulthood. In line clearance if you had a strong back and were not scared to learn to climb you was hired. I now know it would have been a way better outcome, working with a CA those years to learn the finer aspects of our industry. Having said that the grand worth of study material I have been somewhat working on has given me much more knowledge about biology and physiology. I am getting a better grasp of what it means to be arborist and many say I already am, I however; don't feel I am. I expect to not have to look things up unless its minimal. I may be my worst critic but I can't change the way I process thought.


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## treevet (Dec 31, 2010)

Sure it sucks seeing landscapers sneaking into tree care. As for removals, if a tree is there....the owner doesn't want it there....then it is made to be not there...and nobody or nothing is hurt...what dif does it make if a landscaper or roofer or whoever is doing it?

One could profess (in pruning) that if a proper branch removal cut (natural target pruning cut) is made and the tree suffers no injury (spikes etc) in the process, then everything is kosher.

But imo since trees function in a mode referred to as "dynamic equillibrium" by Dr. Alex Shigo, and as branches die they progressively move carb stores back into the parent member, then...

We are doing trees NO favors by pruning them (trees will figure it out themselves). They will shed branches while maturing or if nec. because of dynamic equillibrium and in this process move the carb stores back to the stem for use. Just arbitrarilly removing a limb because of some perceived self opinion for asthetics or "safety" or function (while wounding it) it is doing the tree a disservice and could put the tree into a state of disorder. Insects and disease that prey on trees lie in wait to take advantage of a tree in disorder.

If you are removing dead limbs or broken parts of limbs then you are just doing an obvious "garbage removal" service akin to tree removal.....aren't you? and if the landscaper or roofer or accountant can safely climb and make a natural target pruning cut then.....what's the big deal.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 31, 2010)

treevet said:


> Sure it sucks seeing landscapers sneaking into tree care. As for removals, if a tree is there....the owner doesn't want it there....then it is made to be not there...and nobody or nothing is hurt...what dif does it make if a landscaper or roofer or whoever is doing it?



Well I can almost guarantee that the roofer is not insured to perform tree removal, and if an accident happened would not likely be covered. Landscapers policy will not include tree removal either, however if they do it frequently and are smart would have it added to policy.

Furthermore, are they covered properly in their workers compensation? Seriously doubt it.. in our area workers comp is higher for tree companies than for landscapers.. Now not sure about roofers - as their workers comp is likely fairly high as well.. but if they added tree removal to their workers comp it still likely go up.

To do tree removals in some city's (a particular one comes to mind) in our area, you need (or the city bylaw states) a minimum of $3m liability insurance - and if you are working on municipal property it goes up to $5m. I could be wrong but doubt that any roofer and most landscapers are covered in the insurance side of it.

In fact in a couple of cities, to remove a tree (if it is not dead) you need to obtain a permit, and a CA is required to do some of the work (justify why tree is to be removed). If property size is over 3/4 acres then a proper plan needs to be submitted for any removals at all. Fine in once city for removal without proper paperwork is $1K per tree up to maximum of $20K.

Now .. having said that I see a lot of pickup truck and chainsaw guys around.. doubt they have the necessary paperwork.. but realistically if somebody does not report it nothing is done.



treevet said:


> If you are removing dead limbs or broken parts of limbs then you are just doing an obvious "garbage removal" service akin to tree removal.....aren't you? and if the landscaper or roofer or accountant can safely climb and make a natural target pruning cut then.....what's the big deal.


 
Well if the limb is already broken, nothing other than safety concerns and possibly insurance issues.. 

Realistically if they are properly trained, pay proper WSIB policy, have proper liability insurance, and bid the job properly (don't lowball ... then guess I won't complain too loudly.

My major issue is that most of these guys are:
a) flying under radar and not paying dues (insurance, WSIB, taxes, training, etc)
b) lowballing - causing havoc in industry on pricing

On the flip side, if there is a roof that has an obvious need of repair.. should I send guys in to do it? I have dump trailer, ladders, ropes, an air compressor.. Does this make me a roofer?


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## treemandan (Dec 31, 2010)

Darin said:


> I guess I used arborists as a general term but what I basically mean is are lanscapers or actual tree services doing the majority of the work?


 
Yes, the question is better put this way as with the other way its just to broad to answer. Now to answer the question... ####! I can't, sorry. Its quite bewildering out there let me tell you.
I have resigned myself to dominating "my jobs" only if ya know what I mean. But as bleak as that may sound its actually very nice and it does seem that a lot of the scrapers around here stick to their business but its not like I never met one who wouldn't try.


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## ducaticorse (Jan 1, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Well I can almost guarantee that the roofer is not insured to perform tree removal, and if an accident happened would not likely be covered. Landscapers policy will not include tree removal either, however if they do it frequently and are smart would have it added to policy.
> 
> Furthermore, are they covered properly in their workers compensation? Seriously doubt it.. in our area workers comp is higher for tree companies than for landscapers.. Now not sure about roofers - as their workers comp is likely fairly high as well.. but if they added tree removal to their workers comp it still likely go up.
> 
> ...



Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave. 

I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 1, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave.
> 
> I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............


 
Feel the passion!!!!!


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## Darin (Jan 1, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Half the F'in "tree services aren't insured properly... Cheap out on LS ins to get by, Stupid/trusting HO's see a policy, and think they're covered. EVERY quote I go out on, each customer gets an insurance crash course by yours truly before I leave.
> 
> I've gotten jobs that way, beating out lower bidders because the HO called them out on theur supposed insurance. I FCUKIN HATE SCABS.............


 
Educating customers is a great way to sell.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 2, 2011)

In my area, its all tree guys, you may see the landscaper improperly pruning some ornamental's from time to time, but most of the bigger company's call in the tree guys, unfortunately they don't call the right ones!
Did, some years ago, watch a mower guy remove a branch from a Maple that was getting in his way while riding his Zero turn,Nothing wrong with it other than he had to lean over to get under it was a big, low branch. 20" dia, prob 25-30ft long, about 5' above the ground, started cutting about 2ft' away from the trunk, when it let go, it peeled all the way down to the ground,peel was HUGE and WIDE, landed on his mower, busting the left steering handle right off, breaking one of his gas tanks and broke a bracket for the deck! Bet he doesn't do that anymore! 
Karma at its best!
Poor Tree! It was removed a few years later.


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## redheadwoodshed (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.


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## Darin (Jan 2, 2011)

redheadwoodshed said:


> I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.


 
Not all states are the same. I like your laws!!


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## Treepedo (Jan 2, 2011)

Many of my best clients are landscapers. They take full advantage of me because I help with their trees and any of the plants under the trees including turf. They really appreciate and return the favor with more tree work. We are all landscapers who do tree work. We all fall under the Horticulture umbrella. 
Arboriculture/arborists should be able to identify and know all woody plants and their cultivation and leave the turf, annuals and perrenials to the landscaper it is great partnership that works well.
The few who do the wrong thing eventually see that what they are doing is not getting them more biz. So they either go out of business or make the necessary changes.
Canada is brutal place to do tree work in. Arboriculture is a voluntary trade so basically I never see an easy removal or pruning jobs and if I do, there is no profit.


Darin said:


> I was talking to a guy today that posed an interesting question: Where do you see the arborist industry going? In your opinion, how many Arborists are strickly arborists? In other words, are there a lot of landscapers doing arborist type work? If so, has that trend been growing in recent years?
> I personally, when I sold equipment saw the number rise. I think the education on this subject has dropped significantly. Some landscapers know there stuff, but some are just out to make a buck. Arborists arent alone. Some know what there doing (majority) some don't. Are landscapers taking work away from arborists? Is the do-it-all business taking over?
> 
> I thought these were very valid and interesting questions and would like some feedback from both sides if possible.
> Darin


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 2, 2011)

redheadwoodshed said:


> I don't know the laws in other states, but in Louisiana in order to advertise or take money for doing tree work you have to be licsensed by the state.To get this lic. you have to pass a test and do at least one seminar a year.I am just getting started in the business so I don't know how well these laws are inforced, but I do know landscapers have to have a separate lic.


 
As long as they are flexible enough. Some guys only do removals, some only stump grinding.. etc.

So I would certain ally be in favor of something that controlled the market a bit, discouraged the week-end hacks, and brought some sanity to the pricing.

Something that would allow you to license for specific areas of aboriculture - and if you only wanted to do removals, then it would cover that alone.. part of licensing should also have to prove you are properly insured. ($3-5M minimum).. 

Proper 3rd party training perhaps mandatory, but should not need to pass any test with Gov't. If you can prove you have been trained or passed test elsewhere, should be adequate. Training should be only on what you want to do.. if doing removals than maybe on some chainsaw safety, something on felling, or climbing.. not sure.. but related to what you do.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> As long as they are flexible enough. Some guys only do removals, some only stump grinding.. etc.
> 
> So I would certain ally be in favor of something that controlled the market a bit, discouraged the week-end hacks, and brought some sanity to the pricing.
> 
> ...


 


Oh and fines should be stiff enough to discourage week-end hacks from bypassing rules. 

Proper training, with regular updated (maybe every 3 to 5 years), proof of insurance.. should be all that is necessary.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 2, 2011)

Treepedo said:


> Many of my best clients are landscapers. They take full advantage of me because I help with their trees and any of the plants under the trees including turf. They really appreciate and return the favor with more tree work. We are all landscapers who do tree work. We all fall under the Horticulture umbrella.
> Arboriculture/arborists should be able to identify and know all woody plants and their cultivation and leave the turf, annuals and perrenials to the landscaper it is great partnership that works well.
> The few who do the wrong thing eventually see that what they are doing is not getting them more biz. So they either go out of business or make the necessary changes.
> Canada is brutal place to do tree work in. Arboriculture is a voluntary trade so basically I never see an easy removal or pruning jobs and if I do, there is no profit.



I agree we all fall under landscaper title in some way maybe. But Aboriculture and Horticulture is not the same in my mind. Horticulture is a different science and trade, and usually more in line with what is typically thought of as landscaper. ( does not mean that arborists are not landscapers, but I think most people tend to think along lines of horticulture when landscaping is mentioned - but for sure tree planting and care is part of it )

Definition: Arboriculture is the art, science, technology and business of tree care. Arboriculture is practiced by arborists. Arborists are trained to promote tree health, discern tree problems and take measures to correct them. 

Definition: Horticulture is the science or art of cultivating fruits, vegetables, flowers, or ornamental plants. Etymologically, "horticulture" can be broken down into two Latin words: hortus (garden) and cultus (tilling). As William L. George explains in his definition of horticulture:

"Horticulture involves five areas of study. These areas are floriculture (includes production and marketing of floral crops), landscape horticulture (includes production, marketing and maintenance of landscape plants), olericulture (includes production and marketing of vegetables), pomology (includes production and marketing of fruits), and postharvest physiology which involves maintaining quality and preventing spoilage of horticultural crops." 

Partnering with a landscaper or several can make good partnership for sure. But most landscapers do not have the skills, training nor tools to properly perform aboriculture. Just many of them do not realize it !


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## TMFARM 2009 (Jan 2, 2011)

lets face it,most customers will look at the trade as they need someone to get rid of that tree or prune this one cause its dead on one side.... they will be suffering from the walmart syndrome. i say the landscapers the tree cutters and the true arborist should work together to better serve the public... this means from all sides... i have jobs mostly cleaning fence rows and downed wood in my area....i have run into people who want the tree dropped cause it has grown against the side of the house and there is only twenty feet of clearance between houses...this is where i call a pro for the customer.if i need landscaping i call them... tree's need pruned i know a guy who is a pro at that....they also call me when they get a job where the farmer wants a woods or tree line cleared...i know some finer points in dropping trees like how to spin it before it drops,bore cutting for furniture grade logs etc.but i wouldn't try pruning my own trees...long story short the do all company with true pros for different things will excel. just my opinion.


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## redheadwoodshed (Jan 2, 2011)

Again, I'm new to this and I didn't really like going through all the rigamarole.But the licsense only cost about $200 dollars.That includes the study books for the test and the test.It is done by the state, but the seminars you have to attend are done by private educators, and the are about 85$ each and you have to do 1 a year.They have 2 arborist licsense.Arborist and utility arborist, for power line and right-of-ways.Horticulture has it's own licsenses.100,000$ worth of insurance is required also, although the least my agent will write a policy on is $300,000,about 600$ a year.


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## Treepedo (Jan 2, 2011)

Please, have a look at Richard Harris Professor Emeritus Deptmant of Enviro Hort. University of California text book *Arboriculture Integrated Management of Landscape Trees Shrubs and Vines*.This is and should be the standard manual for Arborists and Horticulture programs. Arboriculture falls under Landscape Horticulture. His definitions are quite different than what you are presenting.
The one who dominates this industry is generally no different than other industries. It is the one with knowledge and ability to communicate it in a way that makes the sale. Some people are open minded to what I sell and even value it enough to sign the contract and others are not and will give that work to the lowest bidder and that is what makes earning a living difficult in Canada.
IMO people with post secondary education higher with the equivalent and everything esle goes to the wolves. If you run with the wolves, you go down with pack. Arbriculture is not the specimen tree it is the whole enviro in and around the trees, it is essentially a micro-forest and that is our greatest fault in this industry we treat trees like they have no father, mother, brother sister. Arboricultur is a branch of horticulture and falls under plant sciences same as forestry. I do some forestry work but always consult Register Forester when it gets involved.
Who dominates is extremely difficult to answer in Canada but one thing for sure, the better you are able to communicate the best practice and share the best information, the easier the sale.


TreeClimber57 said:


> I agree we all fall under landscaper title in some way maybe. But Aboriculture and Horticulture is not the same in my mind. Horticulture is a different science and trade, and usually more in line with what is typically thought of as landscaper. ( does not mean that arborists are not landscapers, but I think most people tend to think along lines of horticulture when landscaping is mentioned - but for sure tree planting and care is part of it )
> 
> Definition: Arboriculture is the art, science, technology and business of tree care. Arboriculture is practiced by arborists. Arborists are trained to promote tree health, discern tree problems and take measures to correct them.
> 
> ...


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 2, 2011)

redheadwoodshed said:


> although the least my agent will write a policy on is $300,000,about 600$ a year.



$300K.. is this for tree services?

We need minimum $5m to work on municipal or gov't jobs.. and we carry $10m. $300k seems a little light if for tree services (at least if you do any removals - and if on any commercial or municipal properties especially).


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 2, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> $300K.. is this for tree services?
> 
> We need minimum $5m to work on municipal or gov't jobs.. and we carry $10m. $300k seems a little light if for tree services (at least if you do any removals - and if on any commercial or municipal properties especially).


 
Well, what can 300k get you in Looseyanna?
Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Rftreeman (Jan 2, 2011)

One of the biggest companies out there does both and so do I, I don't really see the big problem some people have with it, if I mow the lawn and trim the shrubs what's the problem if I do the trees also, if I'm legit and doing both side right what's the big deal....


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 2, 2011)

I think it is who you market to and your region.
Jeff


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## squad143 (Jan 2, 2011)

Darin said:


> Where do you see the arborist industry going? In your opinion, how many Arborists are strickly arborists? In other words, are there a lot of landscapers doing arborist type work? If so, has that trend been growing in recent years?


 
IMO, unless there is some form of regulation, I see it remaining relatively the same. When times are tough, you see a lot more landscapers (& others) branching into tree care/service, However, regardless of economic conditions, you will always have people dabbling into tree work for some extra $, in addition to those who will specialize in the care of trees.


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## redheadwoodshed (Jan 2, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well, what can 300k get you in Looseyanna?
> Jeff :hmm3grin2orange:


 
I'm just saying what the law is (100k) you can get as much insurance as you want, most insurance co. or the ones I talked to wouln't write less than 300k.


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## newsawtooth (Jan 18, 2011)

The industry is stratified. Certainly, the top is dominated by companies that provide more services than just pruning and removal of trees. In my area, they are the companies that provide insect and disease control as well as lawn services and Christmas decorations. I don't need to tell any of you that the money made from spraying trees and lawns dwarfs revenues from trimming and removals. This multi service approach seems to be the model that provides the steadiest revenues. Diversified companies with varied capabilities which are less dependent on the old trim and remove game. Beneath these companies, the industry is dominated by the lowest bidder, which is usually where I find myself.

Now, where does it go from here? Darin, have your opinions changed since you first posed this question? Jeffers, any idea where the industry is headed? Maybe your beard holds the key?


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## ropensaddle (Jan 18, 2011)

I feel it's heading toward walmart tree and landscape services. It's a shame but inevitable the big names get the gravy and the rest fight over the crumbs. I see it quickly moving that direction.


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## imagineero (Jan 19, 2011)

It's a decent question, but I think it's one you can ask not just of the tree industry but of industry in general. I'm not sure if you guys stateside use the words 'profession' and 'trade' to describe different types of jobs, but over in aus, trades are things like plumbing, electricians, builders, tilers, plasterers, mechanics, metalworkers, fitters, machinists etc...

I think tree work can be lumped fairly firmly into the trades section, and at least in aus, most trades have fairly similar hourly chargeout potential for business owners, though interestingly the hourly wages earned by those in different trades varies. The hourly chargeout rate a business owner can charge in aus generally ranges between $60~$90/hour with $50 at the extreme lowend. It's hard to make more than $100/hour in any trade unless its very specialised.

My experience is that the most profitable trades are those which have low equipment requirements and low risk. I'd put plumbing, electrical, tiling, plastering in this category. You can fit yourself out for less than $1000 in most of those trades (vehicle aside), the tools last a long time, and the risk to life is fairly low. This means that insurance rates are reasonable. You have materials costs, certainly, but these are charged out on top of the hourly rate. It's easy for newcomers to the industry (with enough skills and experience) to startup a small business, and do well at it. The level of profit is high, and you do see a lot of sole traders.

Then comes those trades which are equipment-centric but low risk. I'd put building, metalworking, machining, mechanics into this category. You need more like $20k to get yourself into building (not including vehicle), or more like $100k+ to get yourself into machining, metalworking, etc. For this reason, you see a lot more people working in the trade for others than working for themselves. It simply costs too much to get started, and because of the large capital costs in the setup, hourly rates are a lot lower for workers than in less equipment-centric trades. A lot less people will go into business for themselves. These industries are highly regulated also, so they are less profitable. Talking to long term builders for example I find that they have to keep adding money to their working capital each year just to make the same turnover. Most are barely keeping pace with inflation while making only a similar wage to other trades, which means that for many they would have been better off financially if they gave up their trade, invested their working capital elsewhere and took on another job which didn't need investment. Equipment constantly needs updating or repairing, and this reduces profits as compared with trades that don't need as much gear. In these industries, materials are charged on top of hourly rates.

Finally we have equipment centric high risk jobs. While trying to compile this list, I couldn't come up with too many. Tree work, certainly. I'd put deep sea fishing in there too. Mining is tempting, but isn't valid because the setup costs, risks and profits are in a whole other league. There are other high risk jobs, but not too many I can think of that are so equipment-centric. 

So lets talk about tree work. To run a real tree company, you need to have a truck, right? Maybe a bucket truck, a chipper, possibly a stump grinder, saws, ropes, saddles, miscellaneous gear (a big one that last one!). To get into it for real, how much money are we talking? $50k? More? Could easily be more with a new big truck and a new big chipper. The equipment also breaks down faster than in almost any other comparable industry, and should be replaced or at least re-certified more often that it is. In mining, for example, you wont find people using bucket trucks of the standard that we use. The risk, is also high. Risk is cumulative, so over time.... you will definitely hurt yourself. It's simply a question of how much. This risk brings higher insurance premiums, and more regulation. Added to that is increasing environmental regulation or both tree work, and equipment. Interestingly, we don't charge extra for materials. Rock a chain? I guess you'll just have to absorb that cost. Damage your chipper? Oh well, I guess it's hamburger helper for dinner this week. Same story with fuel, oil etc... equipment maintenance costs are significant.

Yet tree work doesn't really pay higher than any other trade. I think a lot of the new starters to the business simply wont bother building up to being a bigger business. Everyone in this industry made a start at some point, and it was probably as a hack, or at least as an idiot working for someone who knew what they were doing. There's no straightforward career path with treework as there is with other trades, so what you learn depends on how you got there. And there's no corporate ladder either.... over time, you might move from being the groundie to being the guy running the saw. Got big aspirations? You might someday run a few crews yourself! Pray that you don't though... the cash flow nightmares will ruin your sleep. Better you just keep running that saw.

I'm running a small tree business as a sideline to building. I have to keep building houses so I can afford to do tree work. At least it fills up time between jobs. I don't have a truck, a chipper, a bucket truck or a stump grinder. I have a couple of trailers and a wagon. Saws, ropes, saddle etc. I do alright this way. I'll never put money in to expand this business because I just cant see it ever coming back. I think the future of the industry is less and less big players, and more and more small timers with chainsaws and utes. The big players will get bigger, for sure, and as per the above poster I can definitely see walmart tree removals as being a happening thing, with staff paid at walmart income levels also.... because big business know the real cost of business. 

I think the vast majority of the work will be done by ute and saw guys, gardeners, handymen etc. The technical removals need technical skills, but there are enough small time guys out there who can do this sort of work without all the big investment. I Just keep at it because I like the work. 

Shaun


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 19, 2011)

Personally I hate government legislation.. 

But.. given what is going on in the tree industry.. I think that some control is necessary.

a) make it illegal to run a tree service company without some sort of license -- and enforce it
b) make it impossible to get such license without proof of formal training OR a certain level of experience for another company OR proof of owing a legitimate company yourself for a period of time maybe 5 years.. license would cover only what you had been trained in.. 
c) make it impossible to get such license without proof of insurance and workers comp coverage up to minimum level -- insurance must specifically cover type of work that is shown in license (ie: if doing removals then insurance must specify removals)

Now that alone will not get rid of all the hacks.. or all the lowballers.. but it would do something to clean up the industry.

Problem is if gov't gets involved they always over complicate things and put in stupid legislation as they do not know what they are doing.. some person sitting behind desk determine how things should be done.


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## treevet (Jan 19, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Personally I hate government legislation..
> 
> But.. given what is going on in the tree industry.. I think that some control is necessary.
> 
> ...



Gummit also gonna take a bunch of yer money for this and squander it away to people that stay home all day and watch big screen and get section 8 housing.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 19, 2011)

treevet said:


> Gummit also gonna take a bunch of yer money for this and squander it away to people that stay home all day and watch big screen and get section 8 housing.


 
Yeah.. reality and the pain of everything they touch.


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## thejdman04 (Jan 19, 2011)

Around here, there are very few if any true arborist/full time tree guys. Most everyone around here is a landscaper, who does tree work. It is esp rare to find somone who climbs around this area


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## treevet (Jan 19, 2011)

thejdman04 said:


> Around here, there are very few if any true arborist/full time tree guys. Most everyone around here is a landscaper, who does tree work. It is esp rare to find somone who climbs around this area


 
How do you guys get a big tree down over a roof? Likely the "out of town expert"?


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 19, 2011)

treevet said:


> How do you guys get a big tree down over a roof? Likely the "out of town expert"?


 
You probably get them and don't even know it. Maybe, right?
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 20, 2011)

thejdman04 said:


> Around here, there are very few if any true arborist/full time tree guys. Most everyone around here is a landscaper, who does tree work. It is esp rare to find somone who climbs around this area


 
Interesting situation.

Now have you ever stopped to think about why that is? Not sure of your situation, the area, amount of work, what people are willing to pay, etc. 

But if nobody is there, then one might assume the market is either not large enough or the market is too depressed price wise to support the industry. Normally there are a few guys who will start up a legitimate full fledged tree company in any area I have been to, but I will admit my global travels are somewhat limited.. so I have no idea of your situation, or what reason might be..

Do you have any idea why this is so..


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## thejdman04 (Jan 20, 2011)

treevet said:


> How do you guys get a big tree down over a roof? Likely the "out of town expert"?


 There are a few landscaping companies around with bucket trucks. But like I said there really aren't any full fledged tree guys around, but there are a few landscape guys that dabble in trees. That is not saying they aren't professionals, or that they don't do a good job, just saying that there are very few full fledged tree companies in my area that only do tree work. I only know of 2 guys in quite a big area that will climb and do tree removals that way, and both of them are "out of town" but will come to this area.


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## alanarbor (Jan 20, 2011)

I guess you have to consider the segment of the industry. If you look at line clearance, there is serious dominance by just a few companies.

The residential/commercial market is gigantic. Even with big companies that may seem like they are getting all the work, if you look at the numbers of potential clients, their market share is relatively small. On commercial properties, I think the projects do tend to lean towards larger companies, because they have the resources to service large contracts in a timely fashion, as well as being large enough to service multiple jobsites, say in the case of a management company that could have many properties.


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## thejdman04 (Jan 20, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Interesting situation.
> 
> Now have you ever stopped to think about why that is? Not sure of your situation, the area, amount of work, what people are willing to pay, etc.
> 
> ...


 I believe it to be that this is fairly wide open country, relatively speaking, its not the great plains but it isn't new york either. Most trees can be dropped with no bucket trucks or climbers, and the ones that can't are done with bucket trucks. Most houses have yards etc big enough to get a bucket truck around. There are a few landscaping companies with bucket trucks that grab most of the tree work, if a bucket truck is required. If it is a simple tree drop, around here, especially lately, literally you can put it on craigslist, and 10 people will come take the wood for free. Guys are just trying to heat their homes, and some are trying to make a buck, any money. They are cutting down trees splitting it and selling the firewood. The market has gotten so bad that people are selling firewood, seasoned and split for 55 dollars, delivered and stacked for 1/3rd of a cord. Hardly any profit in it. Any ads for firewood I see on craigslist(ie come take my tree down and you can get/keep the wood for taking my tree down), are gone very quickly. Once the economy picks up, and people have money to take trees down, and some people go back to their "normal" job I think the situation may change a bit but for right now this is the way it is. There are tons of ash trees in my area dead because of eab, some that will need to be removed by a climber/truck and the trees have been dead for awhile, but the trees remain standing. They need to be taken down, some have the bark off and wood pecker holes in them, you can see they are dead, and starting to rot and decay and people just don't remove them, I think mostly because of the economy. Around here the economy is real bad, (as it is in most places), I sell firewood and talk to everyone from equipment operators, office managers, school teachers about every profession out there, and most everyone is hurting, and just struggling to keep and put food on the table, they aren't worried about the dead tree in their yard, that is leaning over their house, even though they should be.


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## 056 kid (Jan 21, 2011)

Everybody knows that timber fallers dominate the industry!


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 21, 2011)

thejdman04 said:


> Once the economy picks up, and people have money to take trees down, and some people go back to their "normal" job I think the situation may change a bit



Hoping and praying.. but seems to be taking a long time to get there.. Problem is due to some incompetent leadership in various places (not just U.S.!!).. the whole world has gotten into a deep hole.. and personal, municipal, national debt is holding it there. We can only hope and pray.. just don't hold your breath waiting.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 21, 2011)

056 kid said:


> Everybody knows that timber fallers dominate the industry!


 
Ha ha binny men dominate the industry, never see a binny man logger lol


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## 056 kid (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't think I know what a "binne man" is, but I can take a stab..

AND

If all the timber fallers quit falling timber, eventually, the whole freakin world would come to a hault. . No more wood, weather it be veneer, pulp, or fuel, would wreak havoc BIG TIME all across the globe. . 


I think binne man would be thinking about jumping out a window. . .

IMO. . .


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## ropensaddle (Jan 21, 2011)

056 kid said:


> I don't think I know what a "binne man" is, but I can take a stab..
> 
> AND
> 
> ...


 
Binny man would sell before stock drops or buy timber from another source lol. I wish it were that easy though lol


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## treevet (Jan 22, 2011)

Hey if timber fallers quit falling timber then us tree guys could fill in with our spare time.

After all it is the easy part of the job we do all the time after we do the hard part of rigging down big stuff over buildings etc.


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## 056 kid (Jan 22, 2011)

Binne would still be hurting, and the Arbs wouldnt last a week haha.


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## treevet (Jan 22, 2011)

Those Axmen characters are a sorry lot. LOL on the one guy that duct taped a pair of spikes to his boots.

Most of em would blow lunch and the night before's bourbon if they had to drop some of the sticks I have dropped.oop:

(just felt like using that smilie :smile


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## 056 kid (Jan 22, 2011)

the ax-man group is a television show, a crappy one at that. . . if you believe that we are all that way, well you are sadly mistaken!!

Falling timber on steep ground in the summer trumps everything i have ever done,(what little i have done LOL) as far as how much work it is, and I climed for asplundh for a year or so, tree after tree all day. . not even close. . . Pull that cable too and your a tired dude at 3:00 PM. .


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