# Cherry tree, sticky issue



## pdqdl (Aug 10, 2009)

I got asked by a customer about this tree, and I have not come across this before:

Cherry tree, about 20" dbh, maybe 40' tall, is in pretty good condition. The north side is all thinned out by competition from trees removed last year. Good foliage present on all the other sides of the tree, it looks pretty healthy. Damp location, there has been extensive construction this summer on one side of the tree with grade changes (addition of 1'-2'), and sometime previously an addition to the house on the other side of the tree. Ivy growing at the base of the tree has not yet filled in, so it is all pretty recent.

Problem: there is a hole in the trunk about 7' up, that is exuding an extremely sticky orange gum that appears to contain sawdust. The hole in the trunk appears clearly to have been a partly healed pruning cut from the past, and I could stick my finger into the hole without hitting bottom, so there is a cavity inside. The customer noticed the "sawdust looking splatters" on the ivy below the tree, which caused her to look further up the tree.

I saw no evidence of insect activity, even though the sticky goo looked like frass mixed with orange wax. Texture when I stuck my fingers in it was almost as sticky as pine pitch, but wiped off my hands easier.

Lower on the truck, there is a mechanical injury of some sort that has a reduced amount of the same gum leaking out; but it was hardly noticeable.

I started out thinking that this was a simply a bacterial canker of some sort, then I got back to my shop and did some research. "Bacterial gummosis" caused by pseudomonas syringae seems to be my best pick. Unfortunately, I have never come across this gummy stuff before, so I thought I would see if anyone else has experience on this topic.

Contrary to the indications for this problem, the tree looks like it is in good condition, and has no leaf drop or dead branches. I advised the customer that I thought it was a "gummosis" of some sort, that there was probably no treatment, and that I would do some research.

I further advised her that there was probably nothing to do except watch the tree for dieback, and that we should continue to monitor for the trunk decay getting worse. If it begins to sound hollow when "sounded" with a mallet, or if the crown starts to fail, then it will be time to consider removal.












Any additional (or contrary) ideas or suggestions?


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## treeseer (Aug 10, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> there was probably nothing to do except watch the tree for dieback, and that we should continue to monitor for the trunk decay getting worse. If it begins to sound hollow when "sounded" with a mallet, or if the crown starts to fail, then it will be time to consider removal.
> 
> Any additional (or contrary) ideas or suggestions?


Uh huh.

There are lots of options beyond "watch it" and "cut it down".

Try arboriculture--aerate the fill, incoculate with compost, flush out the infection with the hose then apply control for insects. Clean and trace the bark wound(s). Prune dead and infected branches. Mulch.

THEN watch!


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

im pretty certain from the pics that it is definitly insects.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> There are lots of options beyond "watch it" and "cut it down".
> 
> ...



:agree2: lol...just sit back and watch.....nice :monkey:


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## pdqdl (Aug 11, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> There are lots of options beyond "watch it" and "cut it down".
> 
> ...



Well...Those are some good generalized suggestions, but I have resistance to some of that. You should ask more questions before criticizing. I am a small amount miffed that you are attempting to hit me with criticism since I consider that my investigation here is _doing_ good arboriculture, instead of just selling pointless services that might accomplish no good.

_Aerating_ the fill is not practical: it is still under construction, and not on property owned by the customer. "Final grade" is not yet done, so you KNOW there will be further compaction and other changes. Down the line, perhaps, but not practical right now.

_"Flush out the infection"_ ? I never heard of that. Could you add to my understanding of what would be done and how that would benefit the tree? I have a 3000 psi pressure washer, you want me to stick it up the hole and cut it loose? Perhaps add some clorox, to really knock those pathogens down to size?

_"Clean and trace the bark wound(s)"_ The only two wounds both show good callus formation, so I don't think there is anything to do here. No bark is peeling, as visible in the pics.

_"Prune dead and infected branches"_ There is not a single dead branch on the tree, apart from a single tiny branch, apparently broken by removal last year of an adjacent tree. There are no other signs of infection on the tree. Nothing to remove! 

_Mulch:_ Although the mulch is not terribly deep, the tree is already in a well irrigated mulch bed extending to the foundation of the house on the east, for 30 feet to the south, at least 15 feet to the north, and only to the property line on the west. I think my options for mulch are pretty limited.

_"then apply control for insects"_ That might be practical, but I believe in doing more than just "arboriculture", there is another concept called IPM: Integrated Pest Management. One of the basic tenets of this concept is that pests are identified and treated accordingly. So far, I have not seen any insects, nor direct evidence of any insect activity. I did not spot a single ant crawling on this tree, nor a single borer hole. So in good conscience, I cannot just go hosing the tree down with insecticides because it has a problem I have never seen before. For all I know, some predatory creature is hanging out in that hole, eating all the ants that try to move in.

http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/ipm.htm

_If you think insect activity is truly an issue here, tell me more, since I clearly missed it._ That is why I posted this: to plumb the depths of the collective knowledge at ArboristSite.


I may have been misleading in my original post: I stated that the gummy stuff oozing out of the hole looked like sawdust mixed with sap. I really could not confirm that any wood was in the stuff, it was just fibrous, unbelievably sticky, orange-colored goo that made me think initially that there was insect activity mixing frass with sap. It was like apricot jam left on the kitchen counter to dry for a week. Upon closer inspection, there certainly was no layering of sap with distinct concentrations of wood particles, as I would expect with insect tunneling of some sort. I suppose if I took the stuff and washed it out sufficiently, that it might release wood fibers separate from the binder. 

Has anyone ever seen anything like this before?


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 11, 2009)

I have seen this before, but I dont think I will be much help to you.

I have encountered this same thing while harvesting cherry for timber. We would cut our logs on either side of the anomoly (sp?). I was curious, as you are, as to what exactly was going on in there. Same orange-ish goo, no clear presence of insects. I cut a round out of one log, with this affliction. I split that round using a splitting maul. Inside there was a cavity, as you experienced. There was scar tissue in the cavity, black/brown in color. Nothing inside the cavity. No tunnels extending deeper toward the heartwood, as one might expect with insects and borers. Nothing but the cavity and the goo. The wood on either side of the anomoly was fine, in some cases veneer-grade.

My thoughts were, maybe there was someting like a grub (similar to those witchity grubs that the survivor man likes to eat when he's in Australia) that made it's way into the tree, decided he has spent enough time in there, and bored it's way back out. The goo seemed like a byproduct of this event.

Now, I am not a certified arborist, so I have no idea what was actually going on in there. I have only encountered this in one stand of trees on one project. But it was definately the same thing your experiencing. 

Maybe brighter minds can educate us, cause I just plain don't know.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

i may be wrong but im almost sure its stump ####ers. and i have seen this before infact a smaller cherry tree in my yard is dead because of it. the gooey stuff will harden eventually. that tree is big enough where it may not die.


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## pdqdl (Aug 11, 2009)

Uh oh. The naughty filter got you. Put a space between your letters, and then we will know what you wrote.

Stump ?-?-?-?-ers?


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 11, 2009)

I think he meant stump "effers" from the context, although I am not sure what a stump "effer" is.

Also, to clarify, the trees that I cut that had this smae issue were otherwise healthy, and produced quality timber. Just localized afflictions of the same nature that you described. Quality green wood on either side, no noticeable dieback, no deadwood, just holes and goo.

I also believe it was later summer/early fall that I was cutting that particular tract. coincidence?


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

yes effer is the word i typed and its not the scientific name or anything but we have a real problem with them in oregon. they look like a badass wasp. oh and i believe they lay eggs in there. and im nearly positive that its insects with the tree. what else could it be. you think the tree is puncturing itself.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

maybe i should go take some pics of my dying cherry tree in my yard compare pics lol. already lost the top and now one half is goin brown


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree that there has got to be insects involved. I guess what I meant is that the hole in tree doesnt exactly resemble what I am used to seeing as far as insects go. Just the cavity in the outer rings of wood, with the hole through the cambium/bark, with no additional boring, sawdust etc. Additionally, I never actually encountered any insects in the trees. Just the holes.

Of coarse the tree didnt make a hole in itself...

Again, without sounding like a weirdo, it seems alot like the grubs in those trees that the survivor man was eating...

Perhaps it is from badass wasps, I wouldnt know, cause I have never actually seen what is causing the hole.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> I agree that there has got to be insects involved. I guess what I meant is that the hole in tree doesnt exactly resemble what I am used to seeing as far as insects go. Just the cavity in the outer rings of wood, with the hole through the cambium/bark, with no additional boring, sawdust etc. Additionally, I never actually encountered any insects in the trees. Just the holes.
> 
> Of coarse the tree didnt make a hole in itself...
> 
> ...



this is a mystery. but yeah must be insects.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 11, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Well...Those are some good generalized suggestions, but I have resistance to some of that. You should ask more questions before criticizing. I am a small amount miffed that you are attempting to hit me with criticism since I consider that my investigation here is _doing_ good arboriculture, instead of just selling pointless services that might accomplish no good.
> 
> _Aerating_ the fill is not practical: it is still under construction, and not on property owned by the customer. "Final grade" is not yet done, so you KNOW there will be further compaction and other changes. Down the line, perhaps, but not practical right now.
> 
> ...



hey, maybe you should have posted more info if you were wanting suggestions, what did you expect? your opening post set you up for criticism, which isnt always bad.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 12, 2009)

My first inclination would be cherry tortrix which is a borer. However, the tortrix tends to be worst on ornamental trees where there is a graft. I would suggest you look into this and if it is tortrix, then it can easily be treated using tortrix pheremone traps.


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## pdqdl (Aug 12, 2009)

That cherry tortrix is a neat idea, and the description of the orange frass tube is reminiscent of the mess on our tree. I think the scale is a bit off for a borer though: I can stick my whole finger in the hole, so this seems unlikely as a borer hole. That, and the tortrix seems to be only in the Oregon area.

Now that tunneling wasp idea seems possible. Bad news if they were home while I was sticking my finger in to check for habitation...


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## pdqdl (Aug 12, 2009)

BarkBuster20 said:


> hey, maybe you should have posted more info if you were wanting suggestions, what did you expect? your opening post set you up for criticism, which isnt always bad.



Yeah, I know. Getting beat up is par for the course around here. 

Quite frankly, I was hoping to get Treeseer's opinion. He really is well informed, and I respect his knowledge in our field. I don't exactly see eye to eye with him on a number of issues, but that is part of what makes this site such a fine place to get new ideas.

I think some of the other guys have seen this cherry tree problem before, we just don't know what it is yet. I am inclined to think that it is just a minor case of bacterial canker that is producing such a thick sappy exudate that we don't recognize it.


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## BarkBuster20 (Aug 12, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Yeah, I know. Getting beat up is par for the course around here.
> 
> Quite frankly, I was hoping to get Treeseer's opinion. He really is well informed, and I respect his knowledge in our field. I don't exactly see eye to eye with him on a number of issues, but that is part of what makes this site such a fine place to get new ideas.
> 
> I think some of the other guys have seen this before, we just don't know what it is yet. I am inclined to think that it is just a minor case of bacterial canker that is producing such a thick sappy exudate that we don't recognize it.



well i hope you can get to the bottom of this my curiousity has been nipped at. and goodluck.


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 12, 2009)

My 7 yr old neice explained this phenominon to me last night, in full detail. In short:

Gnomes.

Glad I could Help,

T


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## treemandan (Aug 12, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Uh huh.
> 
> There are lots of options beyond "watch it" and "cut it down".
> 
> ...



Sounds expensive, what does the whole tree look like?


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## outofmytree (Aug 14, 2009)

Pfft.

Ya niece aint in the know.

Its gremlins. FFs I thought everyone knew this!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 14, 2009)

I tried to argue the gremlins side of things, but that lil girl tore me apart, she is insistent that it is Gnomes...


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Sounds expensive, what does the whole tree look like?



It is leaning toward the south, away from the austrian pine that no longer overhangs it on the north. (we removed it last year.) There are almost no branches on the north side, but all the branches on the south side are fully leafed out with no signs of disease. No dead branches, and the crown is full and appears to be growing new shoots toward the thinner areas.

The bark is nearly perfect, except for the lesion and hole in the pictures, and a 8" mechanical damage on the south side of the tree at about 3' up from the ground. It too, has the same gummosis seeping out the bottom of the injury, but there is no hole and the amount of gum present is much smaller than the one in the pictures.


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## BlackenedTimber (Aug 14, 2009)

Ok we are pretty certain that insects are/were involved, and that it is not a bacterial condition, right?

Check this link out, may help you in your diagnosis:

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-229-W.pdf

T


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## pdqdl (Aug 14, 2009)

BlackenedTimber said:


> Ok we are pretty certain that insects are/were involved, and that it is not a bacterial condition, right?
> 
> Check this link out, may help you in your diagnosis:
> 
> ...



That is a good article, and seems to address my exact problem. Thanks!

I will return to the tree with a ladder and a magnifying glass, and look closer at the problem site.


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## Mike Van (Aug 14, 2009)

I've sawn into some tennis ball size pitch pockets on otherwise nice looking cherry logs. They have a darker color wood that outlines the pocket. It's not as sticky as spruce, but will gum up a bandmill blade quick. On most, there was nothing showing outside the log that would make you think it had defects. So, maybe given enough time, that hole will heal over, adding new wood around it while the pitch remains gooey inside?


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## pdqdl (Aug 15, 2009)

Healing over the hole seems possible. Pitch pocket: I doubt it. The hole inside was bigger than my finger. I suspect the gum comes from evaporating sap; It wouldn't evaporate until it got outside the cavity.

But then again, the pitch pockets you found got formed somehow, didn't they?


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