# The business of doing business



## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

With the number of companies that offer tree services in our local phone book growing at an exponential rate each passing year, it is becomming more expensive to become one of the "fittest" in the survival of the fittest game. In our market there are over 120 companies listed in the book, most of them are fly by the seat of their pants locals with no business operating a chainsaw. The fact of the matter is that the majority do not hold the proper insuances, general liability or workers compensation. They have no idea what the acronyms ISA, TCIA, or ANSI represent. And they excell at underbidding legitimate tree companies. Our company has went to great lenghts at some expense to become accredited by the TCIA, a sustaining member of the ISA, certified arborists, treeworkers, and holders of various other liscenses. We have spent piles of money on advertising and a website. Our equipment, uniforms, and attitudes reflects professionalism. 

My questions are: How many more tree companies that do not adhere to the ethical obligations of our industry can the market withstand? How many companies are going to the above mentioned lenghts to seperate themselves in their respective markets? Other than providing superior service, what else can companies do to gain more arket shares?


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## mckeetree (Jun 3, 2007)

Well, the big problem is regulation and the enforcement of that regulation. The tree care industry doesn't have it and the green industry as a whole sure as hell doesn't have it. There is some regulation and enforcement as far as pesticide application goes. Until they come up with a business lincense for tree care companies on a state by state basis that requires gen. liability and WC plus the lincense holder pass a basic knowledge test things won't change much. And the enforcement needs to be as simple as you get caught without a lincense you get your ass fined and shut down. I was discussing this with a group of arborist in Austin a few months back and everybody seems to feel the same way. One guy said if you are a one man band with no employees then there would not be the WC requirement and that makes sense.


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## lxt (Jun 3, 2007)

Pancake, welcome to arboristsite, I feel your pain!! go through this every year thats why my operation is fairly small!! cant afford to be competitive.

Ive tried alot of tactics, some work some dont!! it is for the reasons you mentioned that I dont hold membership in any particular organization anymore, this may be wrong but hey! I was a member ISA,(for years) bought their publications, etc... member TCIA(currently) member arborday foundation, the problem is People DONT CARE!! 90% only care about the price(at least where I live).

hell just the other day Im watchin the news(PA) & verizon/netzero cant remember which had a contractor busted with several illegal immigrants, they got caught by an officer that noticed their tow item wasnt properly connected(duct tape dont work) no safety chains,lights,breakaway,etc...

I imagine this will change someday, but ill be to old to enjoy any benefit that comes from change. In part this is why I dislike lawn services/landscapers, dont get me wrong there are good co`s. out there!!! but most are shady jack of all trade, I can do it all worthless hacks.

choose a trade for god sake!! I did & now I have to compete with grass cutters, roofers,& mr.handyman!! god knows who else.

LXT....................


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## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

It is all about the money unfortunately. I love capatialism. I also love trees and working with them. I don't need all of the memberships and credentials to prove this, but they are valuable in a tight market- especially if the economic ceiling is high enough to warrant paying the wages of experts who provide quality service. There is a local company-38 years of service- who's company is the " Tree Surgeon". This really irks me because I can't really put up a billboard that says " Hey, would you let me operate on your kids, I'm a "surgeon", well, I don't have any letters attached to my name to prove it " People are easily swayed by words like Surgeon, Doctor. Especially if they are to lazy to research what a tree surgeon is and services they would provide. The TCIA is working to form insurance coops and legislators will listen if you get in front of them. I really don't think there will ever be enough money in the pot to afford Government regulators to police our industry. Self regulation and providing legitimate services with morals and ethics in mind is the way. People in America are slowly getting on board the environmental movement, and are becomming more aware of the value of trees, especially mature trees, to our society as a whole. I feel that in the near future legitimate companies who operate within the realm of industry standards will be there to fufill the needs of the people and the trees.


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## mckeetree (Jun 3, 2007)

I have even had to compete with house keepers, illegal aliens,cowboys, a prostitute (not joking) and garbage collectors. It is ridiculous.


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## treeseer (Jun 3, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Self regulation and providing legitimate services with morals and ethics in mind is the way. People in America are slowly getting on board the environmental movement, and are becomming more aware of the value of trees, especially mature trees, to our society as a whole. I feel that in the near future legitimate companies who operate within the realm of industry standards will be there to fufill the needs of the people and the trees.



I agree. In my market there are 104 tree services in the yp and 4 arborists. By promoting the value of arboriculture you can build demand for high quality tree care. Connect with extension agents and master gardeners, garden clubs, other allies, get the story told in print, to promote the profession.


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## clearance (Jun 3, 2007)

Uniforms???


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## jonseredbred (Jun 3, 2007)

mckeetree said:


> Well, the big problem is regulation and the enforcement of that regulation.
> 
> Until they come up with a business lincense for tree care companies on a state by state basis that requires gen. liability and WC plus the lincense holder pass a basic knowledge test things won't change much.



And the problem with that is it is ultimately the customers choice. I agree with what you are saying but until the customer stops using scab companies its like pushing rope uphill, we can debate it all day long it wont change.

Best thing you can do to survive is don't worry about the scabs, if you lose focus on your company by worrying about them you have lost it all. Keep your nose to the ground working smart and efficiently. The scabs will go away, but again there is always another to tale the place of one going out of business.


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## mckeetree (Jun 3, 2007)

jonseredbred said:


> And the problem with that is it is ultimately the customers choice. I agree with what you are saying but until the customer stops using scab companies its like pushing rope uphill, we can debate it all day long it wont change.
> 
> Best thing you can do to survive is don't worry about the scabs, if you lose focus on your company by worrying about them you have lost it all. Keep your nose to the ground working smart and efficiently. The scabs will go away, but again there is always another to tale the place of one going out of business.



But at least regulation would thin them out a little.


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## treevet (Jun 3, 2007)

I think it is more difficult to develope a larger tree company than it used to be, unless it is a second generation or third w an established clientele. There is still no problem w the correct procedures and connections to operate a one to three crew bus but when you go beyond that problems arise. Employee probs (drugs, laziness, etc.), competition (unqualified for the difficult and highly skilled jobs and qualified to do easy stuff now that they see what we have earned the right to make during the course of total service per man hour) and the general literal costs such as fuel, insurance, equip and maint, etc., etc. that didn t used to be so high. 

It is easy to beat up unqualified competetitors when you re small but try to expand they ll get you back every time.


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## Log hog (Jun 3, 2007)

*I Don't Mind The Scabs So Much.*

In fact the scabs are good for business and word of mouth. I have a guy who's been doing business around here for 30 years. He will tell people he'll be there in a day or two to give them a estimate and never shows up. And then on the other hand he'll get the job and never show up. Well they always come around and call me to get it "Done right the first time." In the last few weeks I had a gentlemen call me and say I need a stump ground out today, I went with one of your competitors cause he was cheaper. He was suppose to grind it out days ago and I am closing on my house and its a stipulation that it be removed. I left my groundy with plenty to do, got my grinder and the job was done within the hour he called me. Last week another guy called me and a different company than the one before did a similar thing and canceled on him 3 different times. I went and ground out his stump and even charged him $30 less that the guy who was suppose to do the job, He got a nice surprise when he got that bill.I wont kid you its hard at times to see these tree turds running around town sometimes, but I always have faith and hope. Most of the time if you pay attention the hacks don't last very long, in the last 2 years there have been about 5 or more of them come and go. They can't handle it, they see the money they make on the weekends and at nights and think this is a cake walk and think there big time. But after 6 months to a year or so they call it quits. Why you ask? Because of the over head, and how physically demanding it is. After a while they realize this is everyday not just on the weekends. They so realize to be a real business they need alot of equipment, employees, insurance, insurance, fuel, saws you name it. It's a hard life to lead. Then they come to what little senses they have and quit.


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## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

Yes, I said uniforms. Even _clean_ ones at that. And call us prudes, but we actually shave and keep our hair short. There used to be a commercial for Cannon cameras featuring Andre Agassi, "image is everything". So true, especially when you are competing for the nice jobs and big contracts. We get told all the time " you guys just look like you know what you are doing" or your guys and trucks look so nice" both I think are code for "I can trust you". Overhead is a manageable challenge, you just have to be organized and take a calculated risk every so often. My grandmother always said being prompt and on time is very important.


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## jonseredbred (Jun 3, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Yes, I said uniforms. Even _clean_ ones at that. And call us prudes, but we actually shave and keep our hair short. There used to be a commercial for Cannon cameras featuring Andre Agassi, "image is everything". So true, especially when you are competing for the nice jobs and big contracts. We get told all the time " you guys just look like you know what you are doing" or your guys and trucks look so nice" both I think are code for "I can trust you". Overhead is a manageable challenge, you just have to be organized and take a calculated risk every so often. My grandmother always said being prompt and on time is very important.



everyone dressed the same and clean is a must. you dont want to look like your guys are out there working for beer money.


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## treevet (Jun 3, 2007)

In theory the uniform thing is nice however I m happy if my help wears a logo shirt on high profile jobs in the summer and in the winter clothes are going on and off so much it is impossible for them all to be a uniform. I think this is the least important part of image. If you are so worried about competition and uniforms at this time of year, Pancake, you must be a very new entity or I guess there may be another reason. There is so much work out there right now we could show up in clown suits and it wouldn t matter. I m booked up for a couple of months and I m selling a 100.00 per man hour.


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## mckeetree (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm booked thru labor day but we have done the uniform thing for years. And non- legit competition bugs me no matter how much work we have stacked up and we have been in business 21 years. Clown suits??? I think I know those guys.


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## clearance (Jun 3, 2007)

jonseredbred said:


> everyone dressed the same and clean is a must. you dont want to look like your guys are out there working for beer money.



Never seen it here, sure you see guys wearing Davey and Asplundh shirts but uniforms, no, so its not a must. Uniforms, ha! Sounds like a dorkfest.


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## mckeetree (Jun 3, 2007)

clearance said:


> Never seen it here, sure you see guys wearing Davey and Asplundh shirts but uniforms, no, so its not a must. Uniforms, ha! Sounds like a dorkfest.



Dorkfest. My God.


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## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

Wow, I have never heard dorkfest used so elegantly. Yes I can see 13 immigrants, illegal or not, on the side of the highway, shirts untucked, bandannas on under their semi protective hardhats, ripped blue jeans. But Dorkfest? C'mon, you've been in business for 21 years. How about slackers, unmotivated, lazy. I realize there are a lot of guys doing it for beer money, hey who cares- at least I'm here. Where is the desire to look sharp. The passion to be able to sell a quality service to someone who desperstely wants the best care for their trees? Go ahead, call me what you want. I am looking at the bigger picture I think. I can imagine where you look for dentists, doctors, and other services. Hemmingway once said (paraphrasing) the early mornnig is the time of sailors and poor people. I prefer to look at the early morning as the time for ambitious go getters who care about the service they provide to their customers and the means in which they can deliver it. Dorkfest.


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## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

Treevet- I'll be the first to tell you we are't worried about you, work, or much else. Just show up and do more than the client expects. We have a quality reputation and the juice to back it up. I am proud to say that we don't show up and present a dog and pony show to the "high profile" jobs. I failed to realize that we were supposed to be treating trees differently. I'm glad you have the work, I hope you enjoy the nasty back yards fenced in with the dog poo, the run down apartment complexes, and the likes. Yes, I'm sure you only bust out the uni's at the finer jobs. The ones where the boss man shows up and flexes his intellectual prowess, "if it were me I would ...." Forgive me if I'm to abrasive, I only have one green square.


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## clearance (Jun 3, 2007)

Take it easy now. I wear fallers pants with a belt, no suspenders, a t-shirt of my choosing, and $400+ boots. If its colder then I wear a jacket, Stanfield shirt, etc. I shave every couple of days usually. Uniforms are no garauntee of anything, other than conformity on the part of workers. I have no problem with people 'cause I look like the kind of guy who cuts trees, a uniform would be viewed with suspicion by most customers here. Uniforms are for cops, fireman, UPS guys, that kind of thing. Do you provide the uniforms? Do you provide extras, 'cause anyone that works hard gets dirty, or is it a cleanliness fetish?


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## Pancake (Jun 3, 2007)

Yeah I know easy now. We provide summer and winter. Chainsaw protection always. Not a fetish. We fortunately have a shortage of pines in Nashville so the sap is hard to come by. Our helmets match by choice, and we try not to pick our nose on the job. We get dirty as well and I'm the odd ball who occasionally wears suspenders. 400$+ boots, what you wearin man? I do have a festsh about tucked in shirts I guess. I know, the client doesn't care.


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## clearance (Jun 3, 2007)

Viberg lineman boots, actually they are way over $400 now, check them out on the web-Viberg boot.


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## treesquirrel (Jun 3, 2007)

I have found myself matching hacks prices now more often than before. But at the same time I take one of their jobs away every time I do it. So far I can work efficiently enough that I have not taken a bath but my margins are not what I want.

I put every bid in writing and detail exactly what I am going to do. I have found that people appreciate this. They know exactly what they are paying for. Ive had many comments that this practice makes them very confident.

As for hacks and low ballers. Bring it on! I have yet to meet a job I could not do better than any of those crews and gain another satisfied customer.

Uniforms are a nice touch and I need to get on board with that.


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## treevet (Jun 3, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Treevet- I'll be the first to tell you we are't worried about you, work, or much else. Just show up and do more than the client expects. We have a quality reputation and the juice to back it up. I am proud to say that we don't show up and present a dog and pony show to the "high profile" jobs. I failed to realize that we were supposed to be treating trees differently. I'm glad you have the work, I hope you enjoy the nasty back yards fenced in with the dog poo, the run down apartment complexes, and the likes. Yes, I'm sure you only bust out the uni's at the finer jobs. The ones where the boss man shows up and flexes his intellectual prowess, "if it were me I would ...." Forgive me if I'm to abrasive, I only have one green square.



Lighten up, nobody likes burnt pancakes. Never said we treat trees or customers any differently just wear logo shirts sporadically. You fail to realize the company you are in here or you wouldn t be beating your chest so much w just a couple of posts. We know you " don t pick your nose on jobs", do the job your supposed to and dress real swell. What else you got?


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## Pancake (Jun 4, 2007)

Forgive me, I didn't realize there was a number of posts requirement to reach prior to letting it all hang out on this website. I am sure your a great guy with a great company and a healthy bottom line. I am pretty sure I know the company I'm in, but for the record maybe you could help me out. Uniforms aren't for everyone, neither is most of the stuff I brought up to begin with. To each his own. Good luck to you, stay safe.


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## Pancake (Jun 4, 2007)

Treevet- Let me try to qualify my remarks. We are a TCIA Accredited company, an ISA Sustaining member, with all employees being Certified Aborists, Tree Workers, and a Utility Specialist. We are all competition climbers, and have won 3 out of the past 4 (may be 3 out of 5) ISA Southern Championships (including a sweep this year)and numerous other in and out of state events ( My Co workers are the champions, I have only recently started competing but will climb in at least 6 competitions this year). I am a liscenced pestcide applicator and a master gardner. We have chaired or otherwise served at several TCC's and I sit on the TUFC Board. I may only have a few posts here, and still don't understand the quirks of this site including the green squares. We are also certified splicers and have a secondary training company with several new innovative products which will be released in catalogs this fall if all goes well. I have a bachelors degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and a background in soil science and Plant Health Care. That's some of what else I got, how 'bout you? Peace.


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## polingspig (Jun 4, 2007)

Here is something to think about. I have a beard. I wear jeans because I like them. I get my hair cut once every other month. I wear T-shirts. I still look more professional than most of my competition. I am a Pastor though, so I wear a suit on Sundays.
I put on a clean shirt when bidding a job, but I think the response I get from customers is good because my attitude is good. I can tell them what type of tree we are looking at and I show up when I say I will. I also put everything in writing. First a written estimate and then a contract. 
The funny part is that I called some of my competition today to grind a stump for me. It was just a necessary thing. Anyway, he shows up with the whole family in the truck and looking a little rough. He did the job, I paid him and the customer told me how nice it is that I help the little guys. He has been working around here longer than me and has a bigger business.


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## Pancake (Jun 4, 2007)

I hear you brother. We are all involved in our respective churches, and have been known to pass a job along or even give someone down on their luck a freebie. I speak and write locally for free. I have a goatee, and keep my hair cut close out of lazyness. I think the customers appreciate honest bids and good attitudes as well. I really care for the guys I work with and their families. We are very open and critical of each other, seems to keep it light. We are always pushing each other to do our best, to try somenthing new each day. Seems like an uphill battle to do what's right sometimes, that whole karma thing if you believe in things like that. I am certain people have been doing this a lot longer than me and are much more skilled and educated. Some people have natural talent, I have to work really hard to keep up. Somenthing to shoot for.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 4, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Yes, I said uniforms. Even _clean_ ones at that. And call us prudes, but we actually shave and keep our hair short. .



Oh dear-i have a beard-i must not be a pro! Appearance isn't everything-would much rather work with a old dirty groundie with years of experience than any clean-shaven kid. Besides, if i hired someone to do a job requiring physical labor and he shows up looking like he'd never done a bit of work, i'd send him on his way. Granted, looking neat is good, but how good can you look after spending all day in a tree? In the outfit i'm with, the guys who always have the _clean_ uniforms are the ones who don't do a bit of work. 



Pancake said:


> Treevet- Let me try to qualify my remarks. We are a TCIA Accredited company, an ISA Sustaining member, with all employees being Certified Aborists, Tree Workers, and a Utility Specialist. We are all competition climbers, and have won 3 out of the past 4 (may be 3 out of 5) ISA Southern Championships (including a sweep this year)and numerous other in and out of state events ( My Co workers are the champions, I have only recently started competing but will climb in at least 6 competitions this year). I am a liscenced pestcide applicator and a master gardner. We have chaired or otherwise served at several TCC's and I sit on the TUFC Board. I may only have a few posts here, and still don't understand the quirks of this site including the green squares. We are also certified splicers and have a secondary training company with several new innovative products which will be released in catalogs this fall if all goes well. I have a bachelors degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and a background in soil science and Plant Health Care. That's some of what else I got, how 'bout you? Peace.



Wow, with trying to get all these certifications and going to all these competitions, when do you have time to do any actual treework? 

What do i got compared to you? Absolutely nothing except 12 years in the trenches climbing every day and learning the ins and outs of treework by actually doing it.


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## Pancake (Jun 4, 2007)

We have to get up way before the sun, except Sunday and one Saturday a month, work starts at 5mins till 6 every day. We usually train/workout before work and sometimes have an Aerial rescue or footlock training session after work Not alot of sleepin, most of us have a couple of young children. I 've been known to miss the razor after a hard day.really could care less if you shave or not, in the big picture it's a small thing. Our families are bought into what we are doing and are supportive, going to and helping out with competitions. Like I said, you've got a couple of years on me, but I climb daily for work and recreation both, and I am still learning ins and outs every day. Our shirts get dirty every day, we work hard. I'm not saying anything other than it is challenging trying to keep up this pace and I get disheartened sometimes by the sheer volume of hacks out there. In our market there is a tight niche, and we're trying to have the edge on the long dollar. I am absolutely certian beyond a shadow of a doubt that right now, there is some old duffer who refuses to shave, has a dirty shirt and scarred up knuckles, who has been hitting it alot longer than me who can smoke me in a tree. He can probabally do alot of things better than me. I'm just doing the best I can.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 4, 2007)

Is it just me, or does this guy sound like he's running a cult?


Getting treemen to workout before the job?? Most treemen i know would simply knock you out then go back to their coffee if you asked them to workout.

One of the strangest run outfits i've ever heard of but good luck to you man.


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## Pancake (Jun 4, 2007)

Its not a cult, and I'm just an employee. What can I say, we truly love what we do. Our boss is a great guy, he doesn't ask us to do any of the extra stuff, he just wants the job done right, on time. Man we're just having fun. Thanks, good luck to you as well. You're not a Yankees fan are you?


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## clearance (Jun 4, 2007)

Good God, either this guy has a sense of humor and he is pulling our chain, which I think is most likely, or he is the Ned Flanders of treework. Never have I ever heard of such craziness in treework, like Beowolf, most guys I know in treework would kick his ass if he pulled this crap on them, I'm a little different, I would just howl, this is some funny stuff.


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## treeseer (Jun 4, 2007)

Stretching before working helps you work harder longer. Don't try tree work at age 56 if you don't do something extra to stay loose--you'll get sore or injured long before, as most of my contemporaries have quit long ago.

As for the rest, sounds like a lot of chest-thumping, rooster-crowing, and such an intense peeing contest that I either need to put on waders or leave.

Bye!:biggrinbounce2:


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## M.D. Vaden (Jun 5, 2007)

At least we have the licensing, bond and insurance covered a bit better in Oregon under the landscape and contractors license boards. 

Tree guys can be with the CCB (construction contractors board) or the LCB (landscape contractors board) and the landscapers will be with the latter.

The credentials are covered heavily for landscapers due to testing with the LCB.

For trees, no guarantee of training or certification - hit or miss.


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## Pancake (Jun 6, 2007)

5.1 SIP pants, t-shirts. www.poteettreeservice.com or poteettree.com. Website is a work in progress but it may shed some light

Sincerely Ned


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## Bermie (Jun 6, 2007)

Good on you Pancake...

Don't worry about the green dots, you can even get some for free by going to the 'beg for rep' thread in the off topic forum!!

There is the full spectrum of tree workers, owners self employed etc. on here and you will get the correspondingly full range of opinions! You seem to be at the futher end of the tidy professional while to others that really isn't a big priority for them as long as they do quality work. Don't get to dismayed at some of the feedback you are getting.

I for one like uniforms, all my competition here wear and provide them for their employees, including fleeces, nylon jackets, t shirts, caps. Even some of the landscaper wannabe tree work guys wear at least company t shirts. It maybe a hold over from our school days...all schools here public and private wear uniforms.
Its something people are used to and have come to expect if you are serious in your work.

Unfortunately a landscape co with uniforms and logos on their trucks will show up and try to do tree work for clients in addition to lawns and hedges, and I agree it is so annoying, they don't have any training, and they destroy so many trees. 

I wish we took preventative safety traning more seriously, I have thought for a while it would be good for a bunch of us to get together for an afternoon of aerial rescue and safety chat. 
Your setup sounds like a long day though, what time does everyone knock off??? I know doing training at the end of the day would be the last thing I'd want to do, by then I'm looking for the shower and the couch! And no way am I working six days a week!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jun 6, 2007)

I wear good Carharts and a colard shirt on most jobs, and my clients customers say they appeciate a clean-cut person on the property. Why do so many tree people have to look like trashpickers? Then they compain about lack of respect!.

T-shirt with sleaves ripped off from a concert 5 years ago, military cargo pants with holes in them, duct tape on sneakers...

If you do not look like a person with a profession, or trade, how can you expect the public to recognize you as a professional?


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## Tree Wizard (Jun 6, 2007)

Hear, Hear JP.


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## oldirty (Jun 6, 2007)

i wear the sleeveless shirts to show off the guns baby.

the ladies get a better look if the sleeve is gone.




oldirty


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## TimberMcPherson (Jun 7, 2007)

Because chainsaw pants are compulsory here, its easy to spot arborists around the place and its good "uniform". Keeps things a little more tidy and the fact that you can get a year or more use from a pair they are a good investment.
Not to mention how well the protect you from dog attacks, falling off your motorcycle and being a little more padding when you get wacked across the shins.
I heard they are supposed to be protection from a saw, dont know yet.


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## Pancake (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm feeling a little better now, I knew we were different but some of the feedback was making me think we were off the chart. We typically knock off around 3:30-4:00. And the training isn't daily. Serious stuff like AR or ascender work once a week. Hard core after work training daily happens a month prior to comps and is ininated by us.


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## treeseer (Jun 7, 2007)

I wear tshirts with a tree logo and always cargo pants because of the pockets. Rips or camo style would not go well in the neighborhood$ I like to work in.

On hot days or in scratchy situations I put on a white longsleeved shirt that got too old for dress. I looked for light fabric longsleeved work shirts I could put a logo on but did not find them--references?

I got guns too but I save my flex-to-impress for the boudoir or beach. My singleandsearching helper showed up in a tank top and shorts one day but never again. If anyone's desparate enough to hustle housewives he needs to run an ad or something. 

Does Poteet ever do diagnostic training for crew members? Kind of a what-to-look-out-for kinda thing? Looks like a class outfit worth being proud of from seeing the guys at the isasc tcc

Hang in there pancake; you may get flipped here but the skillet temperature control is yours.:angry2:


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## beowulf343 (Jun 7, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Treevet- Let me try to qualify my remarks. We are a TCIA Accredited company, an ISA Sustaining member, with all employees being Certified Aborists, Tree Workers, and a Utility Specialist. We are all competition climbers, and have won 3 out of the past 4 (may be 3 out of 5) ISA Southern Championships (including a sweep this year)and numerous other in and out of state events ( My Co workers are the champions, I have only recently started competing but will climb in at least 6 competitions this year).



Pancake-first off kudos on taking the ribbing so well. Sorry about some of the things i said but your outfit seems a little too good to be true. 

But a serious question-you guys are champion competition climbers. What does this do for you exactly? Does it enable you to get more jobs? Is the reward money pretty good? Why do you guys put all the extra stress on your bodies that may cause you to retire early from something you previously said you guys love to do? What is the benefit of being a champion climber? And what do you have to do to be a champion climber-first one up the tree, quickest rope job, first to finish a job with no damage? Genuinely curious.


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## Pancake (Jun 8, 2007)

Thanks for the compliments. With a name and attitude like mine, I was born with thick skin. It's great to be recognized in the local media as champions, and even better to tell prospective clients, "all of my employees are competition climbers and we just won the..." gets curiosity up. We came away from competitions with $3000+ in swag so far and a free trip to Honolulu. the training and stretching keeps us ( me I'm 33) in shape, hopefully depositing some good funds in the health account. There is a post from the tennessee urban Forestry Council (TUFC) that gives a great description of the Competitions.


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## Pancake (Jun 8, 2007)

Not sure what you mean about diagnostic training, if you mean hazard/risk assesment we got it covered. I am the PHC Guru of the team so we look at disease and pest issues also.


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## treeseer (Jun 8, 2007)

Pancake said:


> we look at disease and pest issues also.


Yeah that's what I meant. If everyone onsite knows what to look for, then they could report what they see and more phc services could be proposed. phc to me is general tree care, not just chemicals.


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## Pancake (Jun 15, 2007)

I agree, I prefer to look at the trees immediate enviornment and conditions including microclimates and uncalibrated auto irrigation- 2 big problems here, as well as IPM and chemical options.


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## SRT-Tech (Jun 16, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Stretching before working helps you work harder longer. Don't try tree work at age 56 if you don't do something extra to stay loose--you'll get sore or injured long before, as most of my contemporaries have quit long ago.
> 
> As for the rest, sounds like a lot of chest-thumping, rooster-crowing, and such an intense peeing contest that I either need to put on waders or leave.
> 
> Bye!:biggrinbounce2:





there is a difference between stretching before work compared to starting at 4Am with PT drill and then starting work at 6am (thats just freaking NUTS, and YES, i'd pop a punch or twenty if i was ever asked to do that.) we get ENOUGH physical workout at work, no need for exercise (except stretching ) before work...lol

i'll stick with my working 4 days a month and then relaxing the remaining 25 or so days.


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## SRT-Tech (Jun 16, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Thanks for the compliments. With a name and attitude like mine, I was born with thick skin. It's great to be recognized in the local media as champions, and even better to tell prospective clients, "all of my employees are competition climbers and we just won the..." gets curiosity up. We came away from competitions with $3000+ in swag so far and a free trip to Honolulu. the training and stretching keeps us ( me I'm 33) in shape, hopefully depositing some good funds in the health account. There is a post from the tennessee urban Forestry Council (TUFC) that gives a great description of the Competitions.




but can you do good treework? opcorn: 
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## Pancake (Jun 16, 2007)

I like to think I do a fair job. Wish I could do more, but who dosen't. I am honest and try to use the best means necessary to be on the cutting edge.


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## Pancake (Aug 31, 2007)

I need to bring this thread up again. I was a company man, and now the company appears to be a house of cards. Image isn't everything. It is what's in your heart. Big trucks and clean shaven faces dosen't mean squat. A good arborist is good because of their skill set. I love being an arborist, and the people I have met in this industry.


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## Ironxylem (Aug 31, 2007)

It's all about attitude.
I've done quotes in golf shirts, I,ve done qoutes in work clothes after climbin for 9 hours. People for the most part are real. They understand if your busy.
They can tell if your professional by talking to you , not looking at you.
BUT......Presentation is important.
Cheers........


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## treeseer (Sep 1, 2007)

Pancake said:


> I need to bring this thread up again. I was a company man, and now the company appears to be a house of cards. .


Disenchanted with them now? There is no perfect company. Geez I just got a call from Murfreesboro and was going to look at their trees around the asca conference time, and was going to invite your company in to do the work. email me if that is a bad idea.


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## clearance (Sep 1, 2007)

Pancake said:


> I need to bring this thread up again. I was a company man, and now the company appears to be a house of cards. Image isn't everything. It is what's in your heart. Big trucks and clean shaven faces dosen't mean squat. A good arborist is good because of their skill set. I love being an arborist, and the people I have met in this industry.



Thanks for agreeing with me and Beowolf about the image vs. the reality of men. Sounds like its time to move on, good luck and look up. Cheers/Jim


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## Mitchell (Sep 1, 2007)

*interesting thread*



Pancake said:


> I need to bring this thread up again. I was a company man, and now the company appears to be a house of cards. Image isn't everything. It is what's in your heart. Big trucks and clean shaven faces dosen't mean squat. A good arborist is good because of their skill set. I love being an arborist, and the people I have met in this industry.



I have followed this thread with interest. I have considered investing in uniforms; matching saw pants shirts etc for the troops. I feal that all else being equel, clean and neat "uniformally" dressed guys will present better. That should translate into a little more work from people who have no reference to you. 
Most of my work is by referals and with those folks i don't sweat it if I am neat, tidy or sweaty and stinky or for that matter what truck I show up in [ones nice ones not]. If im responding to a advertisment call I will try to arange to be more presentable as It can not hurt and can only help.


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## Treetom (Sep 2, 2007)

*In my humble experience*

A lot of my work comes from word-of-mouth: do good work and the word gets around. On the job, my crew has "fun." We enjoy the work as well as the commeradery and the variety of challenges we encounter along the way. Most clients are people too, so the positive energy rubs off. Many times, clients call and say they've seen my trucks around: slap a little paint on, do a little body work, go to the car wash, it's worth a little effort. A truck is like a rolling billboard, very cheap advertising. But, the average Joe is just looking for the best price, and every Tom, **** and Harry "knows a guy" who works cheap and does trees on the side (after work, on the weekends or when he's out on work release). On the other hand, I've had clients call back and tell me my bid was "in the ball park" with everyone else, but they liked my attitude, so I got the job. Dealing with the lowballers and the fly-by-nights is just another challenge in doing business. Bring em on.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 4, 2007)

Wow, what the heck happened Pancake? (If you don't mind my asking.) Seems like they were the "perfect company."


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## RedlineIt (Sep 4, 2007)

Me too, Pancake, it took some guts and considerable integrity to bring this thread back up and 'fess what you have, you didn't have to do that. 

But it is intriguing, you say the company was a house of cards, was it one instance that brought it crashing down in your eyes, or did you just piece by piece begin to see behind the masks, or spot the man behind the curtain? Maybe all the claims were just hot air, too much do as I say, not as I do?

I haven't seen a bunch of I told you so's here either, which is encouraging.



RedlineIt


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## Pancake (Sep 6, 2007)

I think the quote should be "Integrity is everything". Masks could be construed as "arborist and accredited" in name only. Dosen't matter if you don't care. I still believe in a good apperance, and thay may be just how you present to clients. I thought they were the perfect company, 3 great climbers/arborists and sharp equipment. I equate it to a championship team loaded with all stars (trying not to sound over confident here), they can only stay together so long before a conflict arises between coaches, owners, and players. Maybe the caoching style, playing time, or draft picks. The emeror has no clothes. See you in New Hampshire!


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## OTG BOSTON (Sep 6, 2007)

Pancake said:


> . I thought they were the perfect company, 3 great climbers/arborists and sharp equipment. I equate it to a championship team loaded with all stars (trying not to sound over confident here), they can only stay together so long before a conflict arises between coaches, owners, and players. Maybe the caoching style, playing time, or draft picks. The emeror has no clothes. See you in New Hampshire!



Yup, seen this kind of thing happen over and over. Problem is people cannot get over their own egos.

If you want to be in the top echelon in New England I could hook you up with a few different companies. Problem is the $$ and the top dogs are in Mass.


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## outdoor images (Sep 9, 2007)

Pancake said:


> Yes, I said uniforms. Even _clean_ ones at that. And call us prudes, but we actually shave and keep our hair short. There used to be a commercial for Cannon cameras featuring Andre Agassi, "image is everything". So true, especially when you are competing for the nice jobs and big contracts. We get told all the time " you guys just look like you know what you are doing" or your guys and trucks look so nice" both I think are code for "I can trust you". Overhead is a manageable challenge, you just have to be organized and take a calculated risk every so often. My grandmother always said being prompt and on time is very important.



i so agree hence the name outdoor images well about hte topic unfortunatly any body with a pickup truck chainsaw and acouple of buddys can do the job of say someone with five trucks lots of chainsawas and several employes can do if you are running a good honist business than i wouldent wory to much about the crack heads


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## beowulf343 (Sep 11, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> Problem is the $$ and the top dogs are in Mass.



Nah, the problem might actually be whether this guy can handle new england winters. How much work has he done in snow?


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## DonnyO (Sep 11, 2007)

beowulf343 said:


> Nah, the problem might actually be whether this guy can handle new england winters. How much work has he done in snow?



TRUE, tough to make a living in the winter when it gets reeeeeeeeally nasty 'round here.


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## kennertree (Sep 11, 2007)

DonnyO said:


> TRUE, tough to make a living in the winter when it gets reeeeeeeeally nasty 'round here.



I'm glad I live in the south. I don't see how you guys stand it up north.


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## oldirty (Sep 11, 2007)

there is definitily something to be said about seasons. leaf change, first frost, first snow fall, deep freeze and long nights. then once you cant stand anymore it all thaws out and the birds return and the flowers,trees,shrubs all start to pop. then the heat! and once you cant stand any more of that stuff the fall comes back!

soo much better than your options of hot or hotter you guys have down there. 

i spent the better part of a summer down in the ft lauderdale area and found that heat to be a beast.

yup. i'll take the seasons thank you.


oldirty


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## kennertree (Sep 11, 2007)

We have mild winters here. It seems like every year though about 2 weeks in February its so cold ya can't stand it. Its times like those I appreciate the long hot summer days.


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## Schultzz (Sep 25, 2007)

*Appearance*



Pancake said:


> Yes, I said uniforms. Even _clean_ ones at that. And call us prudes, but we actually shave and keep our hair short. There used to be a commercial for Cannon cameras featuring Andre Agassi, "image is everything". So true, especially when you are competing for the nice jobs and big contracts. We get told all the time " you guys just look like you know what you are doing" or your guys and trucks look so nice" both I think are code for "I can trust you". Overhead is a manageable challenge, you just have to be organized and take a calculated risk every so often. My grandmother always said being prompt and on time is very important.



Very good point. Image is very important and some companies, even though they have been around for a long time just don't get it. Be on time, be qualified, charge a fair price, keep your equipment clean and painted, look good and you will grow quickly.


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## squad143 (Sep 26, 2007)

My company is small, usually myself and one other worker. Always start the day in clean clothes and groomed (never finish that way). Chainsaw pants and bright orange shirt with reflective stripes for myself and the groundie. I believe appearance is important and so is safety. When I'm in the tree it is easier to spot my groundsman instead of looking for someone in a camo outfit.


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## squad143 (Sep 26, 2007)

Schultzz said:


> Be on time, be qualified, charge a fair price, keep your equipment clean and painted, look good and you will grow quickly.



Ditto.


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## Brush Hog (Sep 26, 2007)

All I can say is I feel your pain. I waste too much time ranting to wife to rant on here:bang: :bang: . I would be more than happy to get ANOTHER license to set me apart from/eliminate throat cutting hacks but I'm doing my best by professionalism.


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## M.D. Vaden (Sep 26, 2007)

Pancake said:


> 5.1 SIP pants, t-shirts. www.poteettreeservice.com or poteettree.com. Website is a work in progress but it may shed some light
> 
> Sincerely Ned



Nice home page.

The only part missing is that all workers have conceal and carry permits, but I'd still give you a call  

Seriously though - looks good.


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## beowulf343 (Sep 29, 2007)

Schultzz said:


> Be on time, be qualified, charge a fair price, keep your equipment clean and painted, look good and you will grow quickly.



Man, you guys just don't get it, do you? What happened to skill, training, and experience? I don't care if your guys all look like brad pitt on the cover of GQ--if they can't take a tree down without crashing it through a house, you are not going to be in business long. Alot of the best treemen i've ever worked with were rough looking guys. Heck, it's a physical, outdoor job; you have to be a little rough just to handle it day after day. And if you are starting on your second or third job of the day, you are not going to look good. I've started jobs covered in mud, or blood, or chips, or sawdust, or grease, or even soaked with sweat or rain or snow. I'm not there to deal with the customers, i'm there to deal with the tree. If they have questions or comments and are too afraid to talk to me cause i look too dirty, they can call one of our reps who will come out with his nice clean shirt and talk to them. Granted, i will always start the day with clean clothes, but have you guys ever climbed in the rain? That brown gunk messes up clean clothes fast!


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## reachtreeservi (Oct 1, 2007)

Great website. You guys look like you know your stuff! If I was in your area, I'd love to work for your company. Don't let all the ribbing from these guys throw you, underneath it all there's..... alot more ribbing! LOL


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