# question for loggers....



## mga (Jul 15, 2008)

i noticed, watching the many scenes from wild fires, that many trees are still standing after the fire has passed. i presume they're mostly all pine trees.

are these trees still considered as being good for lumber use? it appears that the tree itself is still good, just the branches have burned off.


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## slowp (Jul 15, 2008)

Not a logger, just a forester, and yes, much of it is good if the fire didn't char all the way through. Pine has to be salvaged quickly or bugs and "bluing" of the wood occur. Salvage logging or just working in burned salvage units is nasty. Everything is black, there isn't much shade, and you become black with black stuff coming out the nostrils...icky.


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## mga (Jul 15, 2008)

slowp said:


> Not a logger, just a forester, and yes, much of it is good if the fire didn't char all the way through. Pine has to be salvaged quickly or bugs and "bluing" of the wood occur. Salvage logging or just working in burned salvage units is nasty. Everything is black, there isn't much shade, and you become black with black stuff coming out the nostrils...icky.



yea, i figured it would be a dirty job, but i wasn't sure if all that wood just went to waste or if they went in there and cut it down. seems to be a shame if they just left it.


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## slowp (Jul 15, 2008)

It depends on who the property owner is. Right now, if on National Forest (owned by U.S. taxpayers) there's likely to be a lawsuit filed to stop any salvage logging. This tactic is well known, and even if the suers lose, they have won, because the wood deteriorates during the lawsuit process--often becomes worthless. Depending on where it is, sometimes no salvage can be done. Lots and lots of wood is wasted this way. Ooops, not really wasted. Let's say rots away and returns nutrients to the soil unless it reburns.


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## redprospector (Jul 15, 2008)

No, that's ok slowp, you can go ahead and say wasted.
Our trees are a crop, nothing more or less. Leaving an entire burn un-salvaged is the equivelant of a farmer growing a corn crop, and then not harvesting it. And then he could argue, it wasn't wasted, it will all return nutrients to the ground.

Andy


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## smokechase II (Jul 15, 2008)

*Options*

The FS does have the option of declaring an emergency (legislation about 6 years ago) to get the fire stuff out in a timely manner.

Locally that was done by one district after a 2003 fire but not by another district after another 2003 fire. Guess who has the biggest mess?

=============

When you look at these events think three stages,

(firefighters help create mess over decades)
*1) Insect or disease,
2) First large fire,
3) Second large fire.*
(legal mess)

The insects don't kill all the trees but what they do kill is burned in the first fire that then kills the rest of the trees that also fall over as new growth comes up forming a perfect fuelbed for the 2nd fire.

I admire Lodgepole for its willingness to die for the sake of firefighter incomes.
What a tree!


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## smokechase II (Jul 15, 2008)

*What*

What I'm trying to say that trees are way more than just a crop.

Crops are grown in fields by farmers.

Forests are huge multiple use places that provide for dozens of uses and users.

===========

By the way, if we choose some reaonable level of logging we can stop stage 1 or stage 2 or stage 3 and get more of all those others uses of forests.

Plus some lumber for our homes.

Just a question of what we value and do not want to waste.

==========

Those two fires that I mentioned above lost 18 spotted owl nests and no birds have returned. Everyone in wildland firefighting is waiting for the second fire in about 5 - 10 years. Hey, if the wildlife people don't care about owls enough to take some sort of action to prevent their demise in dry east side forest fires its not our fault!


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## redprospector (Jul 15, 2008)

Smoke,
I agree, and spoke to hastily. Trees are more than a crop. But the way things are run (in fear of going to court) there is a terrible waste.
I don't know about the forest where you are, but the Lincoln is hurting because the FS is catering to the Sierria Club, etc. There's got to be a middle ground.

Andy


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## RPM (Jul 15, 2008)

slowp said:


> Not a logger, just a forester, and yes, much of it is good if the fire didn't char all the way through. Pine has to be salvaged quickly or bugs and "bluing" of the wood occur. Salvage logging or just working in burned salvage units is nasty. Everything is black, there isn't much shade, and you become black with black stuff coming out the nostrils...icky.



A bigger problem than insects is that the trees will 'check' / crack / split b/c the bark has either been burned off and / or the tree is dead or dying. The sawmill manager doesn't like "checked" wood b/c it screws up his recovery factor. Another factor with burnt wood is that you can't sell the chips to the pulp mills b/c they are contaminated with burnt wood / charcoal.


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## smokechase II (Jul 15, 2008)

*Very much correct*

*"There's got to be a middle ground."*

It drives you nuts when you're next to all these mistakes day after day.


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## Bushler (Jul 16, 2008)

3 billion dollars worth of timber was allowed to rot after the SourBisquit fire.

Management by waste. All my life I have practiced conservation, and to see a prime resource wasted just irritates the **** out of me.

The '3 billion' was just an estimate a logging supervisor (retired) came up with at the time. I don't know what the FS numbers were for that fire complex.


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## Humptulips (Jul 16, 2008)

smokechase II said:


> The FS does have the option of declaring an emergency (legislation about 6 years ago) to get the fire stuff out in a timely manner.



50 million feet blowed down last winter on the ridge behind my house. There was a community meeting and the FS supervisor said they would not even consider envoking the emergency clause.


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## slowp (Jul 16, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> 50 million feet blowed down last winter on the ridge behind my house. There was a community meeting and the FS supervisor said they would not even consider envoking the emergency clause.



Because they would end up in court. It is my opinion that the objective of most forest's isn't multiple use, but to stay out of court. Going to court does cost an obscene amount of money-- Hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more. Taxpayer dollars also pay some of the suers via grants. A world gone mad.

The Biscuit B.S. was so stupid. The environmental groups were flat out telling lies and the press printed it as fact. The FS sat back and lost so much.


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## Bushler (Jul 16, 2008)

I have a real hard time dealing with this problem of being controlled by the GreenPeople. Its my feeling that if they want to challenge a sale they should have to put up a non refundable bond for the value of the sale, and if they lose in court they reimburse the govt. for all legal expenses.

The endangered species act was not about preserving a species, its about control, power, and money.

The GreenPeople are doing the same thing with the fisheries. Our salmon runs are being depleted by overpopulations of sealions, protected under the Marine Mammal Protection act.

Now I'm all agitated and mad. I hate GreenPeople.


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## redprospector (Jul 16, 2008)

Maybe those of us in the timber industries should start a "group", and start sueing the greenies for......oh, I don't know........Loss of income, mis-management of natural resorces, screwing up our forest's, and just being a$$ holes in general.

Andy


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## forestryworks (Jul 17, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Maybe those of us in the timber industries should start a "group", and start sueing the greenies for......oh, I don't know........Loss of income, mis-management of natural resorces, screwing up our forest's, and just being a$$ holes in general.
> 
> Andy



tried to rep ya, but i'm out

great post  

all hail andy!


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## Gologit (Jul 17, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> tried to rep ya, but i'm out
> 
> great post
> 
> all hail andy!



I got him for you...and I agree with his post. We do a lot of burn salvage and it looks like we're going to do a lot more.

We're still doing a fifty-five thousand acre burn salvage from last year. About half of it is on private ground, the other half is federal.

On the private ground we had the Timber Harvest Plan pretty much in place before the fire was even contained. We started rocking roads and doing ditch/culvert work as soon as we could get in...usually while it was still smouldering. We logged until the snow drove us out last winter and hit it hard again this Spring as soon as we could get in.

The private ground will be finished this fall. The federal ground hasn't even come up for bid yet. This is typical. When it does go for bid the wood will be almost 18 months dead and decaying rapidly. Nobody will bid what the Feds figure they should have so it will probably have to go re-offer and the whole process will start again. In the meantime the timber continues to rot on the stump. Just a sad and total waste of the resource. Nobody filed any litigation on this sale...too remote and not enough readily available media attention. 

What we're watching for now is litigation on the fires that are burning this year. There was enough publicity that these fires are now famous and have attracted a lot of attention. Some lawyers and eco-whackos will join hands and the whole circus of suit and injunction will begin again.

In the meantime, the private timber will get salvaged. We have lawyers, too. And they're tough.

The government wood will, probably, stay in the mountains. At least until it reaches the point where it isn't good for anything but chips and mulch. We makes chips and mulch out of slash and tops. Good saw-logs shouldn't end up that way.


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## clearance (Jul 17, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Maybe those of us in the timber industries should start a "group", and start sueing the greenies for......oh, I don't know........Loss of income, mis-management of natural resorces, screwing up our forest's, and just being a$$ holes in general.
> 
> Andy



Good idea. And why do tree planters get paid? There are so many treehuggers out there you would think they would be planting as volunteers. But thats hard work (never planted, only juvenile spaced but I know it is), and that ain't good, better to sit around whining. This whole topic drives me wild, people who have never really done anything, never sweated, trying thier best to destroy the jobs of the good men and women. 

They want to stop it all, meanwhile they consume like the rest of us. Hip-o-crits, a hundred years ago they would have starved to death, useless.


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## Bushler (Jul 17, 2008)

Its not about the littles and the earth muffins, its way bigger than that. The enviromental groups, (I only call them that because its what they call themselves), are so well funded through endowments etc. they are financially impervious.

They buy off liberal Federal judges by hiring them for speaking engagements.

I believe they (enviromental groups) have become the 4th branch of govt., and the most powerfull people on earth. Think again before you go up against them, because you will probably lose.

Our Fed Forest service people should be cataloging site indexs, doing timber cruises, engineering road systems and planing for optimum yield on a sustained basis.

Not defending in court. What a farce.

The same mentality by the ignorant GreenPeople and their Fed puppets has caused a catasrophic failure of our west coast fisheries as well.

Obama told Oregon gov. Kulongoski, (Oregon's dumbest man) that we needed more Wilderness areas and marine parks.


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## The Lorax (Jul 18, 2008)

*I was talking about this last week.*

I work in the fishing industry, I am not a fisherman now but was for over 10 yrs.
I found this article in the Guardian.
It might interest some of you.


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## Bushler (Jul 18, 2008)

I can only speak about the two resources I've been directly involved with, comm. fishing and logging. What I see is exactly as described in the article Lorax linked. Our management policies are not based on sound practices.

Our trade deficit and failing economy reflects the consequence of this mentality.


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## slowp (Jul 19, 2008)

I seem to recall there was such a lawsuit in 1990 something. It didn't get very far. It was Okanogan County(Wash.) mills and loggers and maybe some ranchers. They lost. A more recent lawsuit for libel was won in the Southwest by a rancher. A group printed pictures of overgrazed land and said it was his allottment. It wasn't. He sued and won a major haul that must've drained their account for a while. 

Will the Mt. Adams wood be salvaged? I doubt much of it. The head of the local enviro group just hates the word salvage, and using that word is enough to blackball a sale. 

There is a little hope. The 9th circuit? (I'm doing this off the top of my head and the coffee hasn't taken effect yet) court recently ruled in favor of a timber sale in Idaho. The opinion was finally, (I'm stating this in my simple terms) that lawyers and judges should not be overruling the land management agencies, who have done years of work and are experts, when it comes to putting up timber sales. 

The only court higher is the Supreme Court. Hopefully this means no more judge planned logging systems. They don't understand about blind leads and such.


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## Bushler (Jul 19, 2008)

SlowP, I'm curious to know how much of our National Forest timberland has been cruised and site indexed? Has that ever been done? If so, where would I look for the data?

Thanks, and thanks for being the kind of person you are. Gives us in the business hope. Same with the fisheries, there's some good people there, if only they could do the job they're trained for.


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## ak4195 (Jul 19, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Its not about the littles and the earth muffins, its way bigger than that. The enviromental groups, (I only call them that because its what they call themselves), are so well funded through endowments etc. they are financially impervious.
> 
> They buy off liberal Federal judges by hiring them for speaking engagements.
> 
> ...



I disagree on the west coast fisheries observation,industrygreed,weak industry oversite backbone and competing industry focus ruined west coast fisheries.Just as the first two have ruined the east coast.
Marine parks provide sanctuary's for sea life to prosper and bleed back into the devastated area's.Its the same "kill em all,let god sort them out" mentality that ruined the forestry industry.As someone who was an active fulltime commercial fisherman here in alaska for 26 yrs I know well the "harvest every last one" "I want mine" mentality.But state and fed management with cohone's has kept almost all our fisheries sound.
One in particular the Pacific Halibut stocks is a shining example.The west coast ruined there fisheries in part by turning a blind eye to the balance of nature,a few damns more or less killed off the most gargantuan salmon fisheries in NOrth america.That and a few old logging practices from before anyone here posting was born.
Ever see pics of the multi million board ft log jams on some salmon stream,dynamited to cut loose the jam.Guess what that does to any fish bearing stream.
West coast(including alaska) fisheries aren't dictated by some suit back east,it doesnt work that way.But by regional councils represented by industry and scientists,who give input into the final decision.The west coast is basically in a loose loose situation without drastic action.Prime example is the Elwah damn,did that ever get dynamited(perhaps slowp knows,I dont keep up with wshington anymore).And with soaring energy costs,who in there right mind would blow up a good hydro source?
I could go on,but tired old baseless arguements about somebody elses percieved evils never solved anything,cept make the beer go down quicker.

ok,now your free to flame me
ak4195


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## Humptulips (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't know about flaming you. I hope not but I don't agree about logging being harmful to the salmon runs. I trapped the same streams for over 30 years. Walked them every year at the time of the year when the salmon are up. They had been logged at a time when their were no RMZs. Logged to the waters edge, logged across even right down streambeds. Guess what. Lots of salmon and as the trees grew up it looked like it was pefect salmon streams. Then the indians started gill netting the rivers and bank to bank fisherman. Fish stocks went down rapidly and the streams running out of the Olympic National Park that have never been logged lost their fish stocks during the same time. IMHO if fisherman want to blame someone for the lack of fish they should look in the mirror.
Elwah dams are still in the process of coming down. They have to get rid of all the silt behind the dams. I doubt it will make any difference in fish stocks. The lower river is not producing to it's potential. What makes one think the upper river will be any different?


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## Bushler (Jul 20, 2008)

Every area has its own problems concerning salmon. In Oregon and California where I have permits to fish, I know what the problems are, and it isn't logging. Nor is it commercial trollers.

1. Water quality in California is being compromised by the irraigation diversions from the Trinity and Sacremento rivers.

2. Predation by sealions.

3. Tribal gill net fishing on river spawners.

4. Curtailed hatchery efforts, because the GreenPeople resent hatchery fish. They, (GreenPeople) say the hatchery fish compete with the wild fish. Fact is, both come from the same eggs. There is no difference between hatchery fish and wild fish, except where the eggs are incubated.


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## ak4195 (Jul 20, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Every area has its own problems concerning salmon. In Oregon and California where I have permits to fish, I know what the problems are, and it isn't logging. Nor is it commercial trollers.
> 
> 1. Water quality in California is being compromised by the irraigation diversions from the Trinity and Sacremento rivers.
> 
> ...



All fine points,but like I said,"competing industry focus".The L.A basin H2O grab is a classic example of power hating a vacuem.That exceptionally interesting story goes back to the 20's or 30's if Im not mistaken.Men with a vision grabbed water rights reaching all the way into other states,and diverted it to southern Cali.
Dont get me wrong,Im not on histories side here,but the facts remain,like the Columbia's salmon sacrificed perhaps not in writing but deeds for future generations.The Columbia was the WORLDS largest producing Chinook salmon river.But the $ potential overrode the industry as well as Indian claims on the river.
Sacrificed for eastern washington farming/barging/electro-generation capacity,and cementing the economics of aluminum smelting in the NW.
Logging west of the Rockies was killed by industry lacking vision on both sides of the boarder,not by the evil Greenies,industry merely uncorked that bottle,question is how to put that nasty geenie back in.The answer is recognizing better solutions,and addressing the situation,before the hammer comes down,as witnessed in logging and many other issues.
Greenie environmento stuff is a business unto itself.Think about it,if the world was completely green(whatever that means) what would happen to all those fancy Greenpeace ships plying the oceans,or all the regional directors salleries that surely must be paid to keep brain power.
Ive seen this pro-active approach personally in the unknown(as far as anybody here is concerned)dilemna of catching incidental endangered birds with long line gear,in the Aleutian chain/Gulf of Alaska.Exhibit A: the Short Tailed Albitross.An ugly bird that supposedly only breeds on some distant volcanic rock far from american shores or even the dateline for that matter.But spends its summers in the Far western Aleutians.Supposedly down to 200 breeding pairs at one time.
Rather than wait for the hammer and waste $'s for lawyers on retainer,the Hook n Line fleet went out and solved the problem more or less themselves,and paid for alot of it(unlike say tax payer funded logging road building subsidies,which is total BS in my opinion,and the only reason that logging operations on this side of the boarder were able to come close to competing with much larger BC industry subsidies).
Oh as far as the Elwah goes,shoot its been ATLEAST 10 yrs hasnt it,since the voter mandated demolition of that dilemna,its been along time maybe Im foggy on my facts,but I know Im close.
It will take nothing short of a miracle to save Washington salmon,and as far as long past logging not hurting fish,sorry public,private,federal,state science isnt on your side.And Cali salmon has indirectly been sacrificed for all them people south of Point Conception.Dont feel to bad,supposedly the mighty Colorado river is a mud pudlle by the time it reached upper Sea of Cortez.
Sea Lions n old Indian treaties with legal standing or court related cases is just a nail in the coffin on a direction decided at least 2 generations ago.
Somewhat related,ever hear stories about how the sacremento river basin used to get huge mud flows from time to time from hydraulic mining overburden tailings piles washing down from the sierra foothills?
What did that Newton guy say"Every action has an opposite and equal reaction." 

Was he talking Physics or the wheel of life?
times change and so must we,and no it wont feel good....

ak4195


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## Bushler (Jul 20, 2008)

AK, please use some punctuation, its hard to read your writing.

The problem in both industries is knee jerk. Management by waste and inefficiency.

For example, the corridor logging, thinning, is stupid from a silviculture standpoint.

Point most GreenPeople miss in their rush to protect trees is, the ground they grow on is capable of producing substantial amounts of a renewable resource if the trained foresters were allowed to do their job.

Oregon State University has the best silviculture school in the world. Why don't we use the expertise we can glean from them to do it right?

I have a small paper back book I use, its my 'bible'. 

Your Trees-A Crop, (How to Grow and Harvest Trees in the Douglas Fir Region) Published by, Industrial Forestry Association


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## slowp (Jul 20, 2008)

Bushler said:


> SlowP, I'm curious to know how much of our National Forest timberland has been cruised and site indexed? Has that ever been done? If so, where would I look for the data?



I can only say that I do know that there are permanent plots that were randomly stamped on the map, crews go out and take measurements every ten years. I did that in 1977 and I find plots which are up to date around here. So they must still be getting funding, and it must be available in a data base. It would be a regional thing, probably in Portland. I'll ask our silviculturist if he is not in the fire vortex.


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## ak4195 (Jul 20, 2008)

Bushler said:


> AK, please use some punctuation, its hard to read your writing.



Awe heck a jug o' wine will do that to a person.Jst be glad Im not writing this by hand!
The point in all this is that the reasons are varied,and the story is long,like most legacy industries.At some point housing slump will evaporate,demand will pick up,and most of the logged acres will re-grow,science and practices of forestry will re-tune themselves.
Somebody(s) will wonder why we are importing lumber products instead of harvesting our own,and the greenies will get stampeded into doormats,and it will be called "National Interests."
Whethor anyone here will be working in the woods when that time comes is the real question.

good luck
ak4195


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## Humptulips (Jul 20, 2008)

ak,
You're way off on the effect of logging on the fisheries. Explain to me why the rivers coming out of the park are in such bad shape. Why did the Humptulips which I know pretty well have great runs of fish right through the bad old days of splash dams and ridge to ridge clearcuts, then go down hill when the gill nets moved into the mouth of the river. As far as science not being on my side never seen one study to address this. Show me one and I'll shut up
Elwah thing. Pretty much sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Never been a vote on it. Public had pretty much zero input. Federal government paying for it and it's been sitting around waiting for funding for a lot of the time.


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## ak4195 (Jul 21, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> ak,
> You're way off on the effect of logging on the fisheries. Explain to me why the rivers coming out of the park are in such bad shape. Why did the Humptulips which I know pretty well have great runs of fish right through the bad old days of splash dams and ridge to ridge clearcuts, then go down hill when the gill nets moved into the mouth of the river. As far as science not being on my side never seen one study to address this. Show me one and I'll shut up
> Elwah thing. Pretty much sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Never been a vote on it. Public had pretty much zero input. Federal government paying for it and it's been sitting around waiting for funding for a lot of the time.



Hmm,Hump,
Not sure which park your refering to,but I guess if you know one river well,then you know one river well.
The PNW logging/fishing habitat thing was never even in my head till I moved down to oregon for a few years.
Although Ive seen plenty of STEEP logged ground in BC having traveled for years through the inside passage transiting from Fishermans Terminal to the Motherland and back.
It doesnt take alot of imagination to figure out what happens when rain soaked hill sides without natural cover,what happens to the hillsides.Theres nothing like traveling at night in tight quarters on the inside passage with all kinds of logging debri to look forward to,when your on a WOOD boat.But I digress a bit,Oregon being the unwanted step child of the NW that it is,went through a rough patch about a decade ago,when some seriously steep slopes previously logged gave way during a nasty winter,all over the cascade foot hills,and I believe the Coastal range as well.Sure some of that was on private land,but the point is,science has proven that rivers/streams NEED buffers,primarily because of organic matter and soil snuffing out the eggs,and also because salmon NEED a certain temperature range.
So if your deep vs shallow,well then perhaps you dont need as much cover(not being a scientist,or anything close,Im just trying to use a bit of logic).
As far as the Elwah goes with regards to a vote or not,you could well be right,I just remember the decision having been made,youll have to forgive my memory.But I do remember the decision to tear it down to replenish the King run there,and thought"Way cool".Downstream vs Upstream spawning grounds,the way I remember it,(feel free to correct me with facts)was the best spawning grounds were upstream by far
I kinda think we're barkin up the wrong tree here so to speak,heres where I stand.I like having paper towels,and not having to wipe my b**t with my left hand and sluice it with water from my right(which Ive done,and even payed for the priveledge of having b**t wipe before I went into the "squat over the not so clean hole sh***er).
And believe me,I appreciate the men and women who do blue collar jobs that others cant or wont do,Im one of them and damn proud of it.
And I appreciate and have the utmost of respect to anybody that makes a living from the woods in any capacity,and the risks that are inherent.Ive enjoyed my life living on the edge when I was younger,but prefer to operate more inline with the "odds" as I get older.
Living aint such a bad lifestyle.
But I wont abide by anybody or more importantly a corporation that turns a blind eye to keeping things on an even keel so theres some left for future generations.Plain an simple,and old style logging isnt sustainable,and thats a fact.
This isnt about me tryin to run you out of the woods,its about adapting to changing situations and understanding,and for gods sakes lets hope everybody gets compensated decently for an increase in knowledge and responsibilites.
We could go on and on,but at some point you have to step back,scratch the back of your head and say "Hmm".Like I said that Newton thing keeps coming around

ak4195


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## slowp (Jul 21, 2008)

Like I said on the tree hugger site, some hillsides slide with or without trees on them. The coast range of Oregon, at least the central part, has very very good soil. Not much rock. You put that kind of soil on a steep slope and it is bound to go, trees or not. The 101 highway is located on active slides. It just SLIDES. As does part of Washington, and California. Any flat area on the Klamath River is bound to be a landslide of some kind. I gotta meet with helicopter loggers today. They will be logging one unit that has a road right up against it, but was deemed to have UNSTABLE ground. Actually, I was told that the whole drainage is ready to go at some time, and has been even back in the days of railroads up there. The old timers had problems. Some areas want to go to the ocean.


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## Bushler (Jul 21, 2008)

AK, I've run a boat throught the inside. Seen the floating debris that comes off the islands at high tide. But that sure doesn't impact the Oregon,California salmon runs.

Neither does logging the Amazon rain forest.

If I were in charge, (and I should be) I'd have professional foresters, professional geologists, and professional engineers running the show, not knee jerk GreenPeople with their lap tops and lattes. And their cadres of lawyers and judges for hire.

Personally, I feel that the expense of helicopter logging illustrates the point I've been trying to make, our timberland is being managed by ineficiency and waste. For example, if the unit is so fragile it requires 'copter loggging, leave it alone and clear cut the unit next to it that's stable.

I've never had a problem leaving buffers. Makes sense to me to protect the watersheds.

Please, though, importantly, notice how I break my paragraphs so its easier to read? Pleae do that, my tired eyes have trouble with your single paragraph writing style. Not trying to bum you out, but it really is hard to follow your thoughts.


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## Humptulips (Jul 21, 2008)

ak,
I should have been a little more clear on the park thing. I was speaking of the Olympic National Park. I guess I get a little use to looking at it and think everyone else can see it even though I know darn well I'm on the world wide web.

The Elwah dams were privately owned by Ranier INC and later Ranier LLC. The dams are, one in the Park (there I go again) Olympic National Park and one outside. They were built before the park was expanded into that area. The NPS was the main supporter of their demolition. The federal government had to agree to supply Raniers pulp mill with power in return for them giving up any rights to the dams. The mill has since shut down but I think Ranier still gets credits for the lost power. Not completely sure about that.

Anyway it's been a slow process because the federal government is paying for it all and appropriations have to be passed. It's not as simple as just blowing it up. Years of silt behind the dams must be removed.


I work for the Quinault Tribal Fisheries doing otter control work. The fisheries people tell me all this histeria about silt though is way overblown. I suppose there is a point where there will be too much but salmon can put up with a lot. Slides are a natural part of the landscape here and the fish have to be able to put up with a certain amount. They run up the streams on the worst high waters when the river is dirtiest. The fisheries bioligist tells me a little is actually beneficial.

The RMZs are to my mind pretty much a waste, just public relations. Most of them end up blown down and provide very little shade. If you don't like silt think of all the dirt that goes in the streams off those root wads. I'm sure this is not true everywhere but along the coast where I live it is.

Here's the thing that burns me about the whole thing. It's this one size fits all management. I'm sure the buffer strips work great someplaces, same with thinning. They just don't work well here and god forbid that anyone would ever listen to a local. Through the USFS and WDNR we hire fish and wildlife bioligists, soils experts, engineers, foresters and god knows what else and they end up with their hands tied at the mercy of a judge in CA.

Ok, I'm done ranting

Busheler,
I took your advice to heart. Notice the double spaced paragraphs.


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## Bushler (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks Hump, makes it lots easier for my tired eyes and weak mind to follow along.

Are any of the old Rayoneer logging camps still there? I lived in two different ones, one on the Hoko, and the other at Crane Creek. 1968/69


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## slowp (Jul 22, 2008)

Humptulips said:


> ak,
> 
> Here's the thing that burns me about the whole thing. It's this one size fits all management. I'm sure the buffer strips work great someplaces, same with thinning. They just don't work well here and god forbid that anyone would ever listen to a local. Through the USFS and WDNR we hire fish and wildlife bioligists, soils experts, engineers, foresters and god knows what else and they end up with their hands tied at the mercy of a judge in CA.



Yes, and the environmental groups will use the example of a totally different climate and timber stand to use as a precedent or to cite studies done. Then they want all areas to have restrictions because of that particular study. The government is just as guilty. Some 'ologist will hear about something being done on another forest...like subsoiling. They will think it is a good idea and convince others to do the same on their forest. Then I have to explain why, and sometimes I just can't. I'll just quote my mom, "Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do." or a deceased logger, "That's just the way it is." I sure feel stupid but, that's just the way it is.


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## Humptulips (Jul 22, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Thanks Hump, makes it lots easier for my tired eyes and weak mind to follow along.
> 
> Are any of the old Rayoneer logging camps still there? I lived in two different ones, one on the Hoko, and the other at Crane Creek. 1968/69



I see someone is smart enough to get the spelling of Rayoneer right.
I worked at Crane Creek on the last spar tree they ever rigged. Geez I'm getting old. It closed in the mid 80s. Not sure of the exact date. Hoko was gone long before that. Rayoneer started contracting all their logging at that time.
My dad was the climber and ran the rigup crew at Rayoneers Camp 14 and later at Crane Creek. He did ocasional climbing at Camp 3 also. He first worked there when it was Polsons. Camp 14 was the last railroad camp in the country. I remember going down there when I was a kid. They had bunk houses on wheels and when I was first there still using steam.

If you ever see the book Glory Days of Logging there is a picture of him topping a tree taken at Camp 3, captioned Down with a whistling whush.
Camp 3 closed in the early 60s.


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## Bushler (Jul 22, 2008)

I wonder if I met your father? I helped the climber swing blocks a few times when I was pulling rigging on a Crane Creek side. No mobil yarders then, all triple drums and wood trees.

Can't remember the guys name, but he was cool. 

The camp on the Hoko was really old when I was there. Steam heat, wood walks to the cookshack, and lots of mud.

I have some old pics, but they haven't been scanned to computer. When I get some time I'll dig them up.

Small world.


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## Humptulips (Jul 22, 2008)

Probably was him. His name is Jim Vandervort. He was the only climber there until they shut Camp 3 down. Tells me he did all the climbing for 7 sides. Had 15 complete sets of tree rigging. He's 88 now and still in pretty good health.
Photos of him and his brother in the Saginaw Timber Co book too. A picture of a duplex loader and crew.


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## Bushler (Jul 22, 2008)

88 would be about right. I was 20 and the climber was in his forties if I remember right. I'll be damned.


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