# Rare Grafted Elms



## PinkFloydEffect

*So I have been in a debate with myself and this Chinese guy. There are a # of these trees in our town and a few surrounding towns. But this is down the street from me (they are all on main roads) So I asked the wise old gardening Chinese fellow if he knows what kind of tree this is. He says "it wheepin mulberry" so I said sir that is not a weeping mulberry tree that is a Camperdown Elm, "weep mulberry" no sir look there is a graft ring "IT WEEP MULBERRY" so I said its rare so treasure it, and he looked at me funny "tree not rare it wheepin mulberry!!" so I just said ok have a nice day but seriously, don't tell me I was just outsmarted by this guy that can't even speak English is it a Camperdown Elm graft? This tree can not reproduce itself though a seed?*


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## vincem77

I cannot speak for the grafting, but the rest of it looks to be consistent with weeping mulberry. The fruit bearing mulberry trees in my neck of the woods are just a week or 2 away from being ripe.


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## bsearcey

I'm not familiar with either varities (weeping mulberry or camperdown elm), but if you just showed me the leaf I not hesitate to say it was from an elm.


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## rarefish383

Pink, I think the old Chinese guy is definatly not Mr Miagi, and I'm quite certain you are correct. Your trees look like Camperdown Elms. At first glance I would have said Mulbery too. But, when you said Elm, I looked closer at your pics and they did look like Elm leaves and limb structure. I Googled Camperdown Elm and the pics looked like you took them. Very neet tree, I might have to get one. Thanks for sharing this one, Joe.


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## bsearcey

rarefish. If you find out where you get them post the source. I read about it on wikipedia and "Every Camperdown Elm in the world is from a cutting taken from that original mutant cutting and is usually grafted on a Wych elm trunk." I bet they are pretty hard to come by.


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## rhunt13

camperdown elm it is. i have a 100+ year old one, and a few younger ones at work. i work for the massacghusetts horticultural society, and our camperdown can be dated back to when it was planted in the formal garden it is still in. oh, and it looks the same as your tree in question.


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## senones

*Looks like a Camperdown Elm to me*

Look, i know i live in the subtropics, but i was just researching Camperdown Elm for certain scholarly purposes. Considering i have never seen one in real life (as we don't get many elms down here) it sure looks like a camperdown elm to me. Not positive, but trying to add to a majority. By the way (which one's) Pink, the fat man rocks!


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## yooper

yes camperdown elm it is. 

This is in its winter form, not sure if you can see the grafting on the bottom. It is a Photo I took In Houghton Mi here in the U.P.


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## yooper

oops sorry I didn't re size the photo:deadhorse:


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## treeclimber101

yooper said:


> yes camperdown elm it is.
> 
> This is in its winter form, not sure if you can see the grafting on the bottom. It is a Photo I took In Houghton Mi here in the U.P.



Nice tree but why wouldn't that guy get outta the picture?


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Replys*



rarefish383 said:


> Pink, I think the old Chinese guy is definatly not Mr Miagi, and I'm quite certain you are correct. Your trees look like Camperdown Elms. At first glance I would have said Mulbery too. But, when you said Elm, I looked closer at your pics and they did look like Elm leaves and limb structure. I Googled Camperdown Elm and the pics looked like you took them. Very neet tree, I might have to get one. Thanks for sharing this one, Joe.



Thank! I find it simply amazing but here's the problem THEY ARE HIGHLY AT RISK OF DUTCH ELM DISEASE but my guess is they made it because the beetle can not access the trunk easily, the canopy blocks it :hmm3grin2orange:



bsearcey said:


> rarefish. If you find out where you get them post the source. I read about it on wikipedia and "Every Camperdown Elm in the world is from a cutting taken from that original mutant cutting and is usually grafted on a Wych elm trunk." I bet they are pretty hard to come by.



Really?? Holy wow that's so cool! So your saying that all the Camperdown Elms I have seen locally have all been cloned from probably the same mother Camperdown Elm's canopy? There has to be a mother tree in my town or one of the surrounding towns then! 1900s they did not go THAT far for clones so the mothers are most likely spaced out across MA (of course there are others in other states) So most likely my guess is 1 very smart man around the 1900s grafted all the Camperdowns I see locally today himself. I am willing to ship anyone cuttings in a cooler I have multiple Camperdowns to choose from for cuttings, spread the rarity around! ☮



rhunt13 said:


> camperdown elm it is. i have a 100+ year old one, and a few younger ones at work. i work for the massacghusetts horticultural society, and our camperdown can be dated back to when it was planted in the formal garden it is still in. oh, and it looks the same as your tree in question.



So how do you go about aging one off the trunks diameter? Is it the same growth rate as a normal Wych Elm?



senones said:


> Look, i know i live in the subtropics, but i was just researching Camperdown Elm for certain scholarly purposes. Considering i have never seen one in real life (as we don't get many elms down here) it sure looks like a camperdown elm to me. Not positive, but trying to add to a majority. By the way (which one's) Pink, the fat man rocks!



Thanks for the input, and yes that fat man with the beard and glasses is the man. 



yooper said:


> oops sorry I didn't re size the photo:deadhorse:



Thanks for the tree post! I will post more around my town, many have flagged spots so they are most likely diseased. I am studying DED if anyone knows a handful. And who do I call to report them so they can be destroyed before it spreads across town? I know of several dead elms or diseased elms standing next to somewhat historic elms, aggravates me I am the only one that pays attention around here.


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## tomtrees58

yooper said:


> yes camperdown elm it is.
> 
> This is in its winter form, not sure if you can see the grafting on the bottom. It is a Photo I took In Houghton Mi here in the U.P.



hey yoopers is that a monkey in the windowopcorn:


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## bsearcey

Here's the wikepedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulmus_glabra_'Camperdownii'

Yeah I thought it was pretty cool about the grafting from the original Camperdown speciman. I can't imagine that all the Camperdowns were actually created from cuttings off the original tree, but like you said cuttings from other grafted trees, over and over again. But still they would be genetically identical. 

According to the wikipedia article (to be taken with a grain of salt) they are not that vulnerable to DED because the american bugs carrying it don't feed on the Wych Elm.

I'd love to have a cutting; however, a quick search for wych elm doesn't find any for sale either. I'll keep searching though because it would be awesome to have one, especially knowing about the lineage.

Good work PFE!


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## PinkFloydEffect

bsearcey said:


> According to the wikipedia article (to be taken with a grain of salt) they are not that vulnerable to DED because the american bugs carrying it don't feed on the Wych Elm.
> 
> I'd love to have a cutting; however, a quick search for wych elm doesn't find any for sale either. I'll keep searching though because it would be awesome to have one, especially knowing about the lineage.
> 
> Good work PFE!



Very good point, I forgot where I read the DED fact. If your able to find a Wych Elm specimen (this goes for anyone else) let me know and I will take some clones. Also I am going to keep my eyes out for any new whips coming out of these Camperdowns trunks and possibly I can obtain a Wych Elm clone from one!


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## lxt

Good eye & a neat tree with an even neater history!! stuff like this is what makes our trade cool!!!



LXT..............


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Boo-Yah*



lxt said:


> Good eye & a neat tree with an even neater history!! stuff like this is what makes our trade cool!!!
> 
> 
> 
> LXT..............



Exactly!

*So this is the "fruit or flower" of this tree (kind of looks like dried up roses)*






*Here it is from a distance, now look to the left, see anything? Take a closer look!*










*This is the main road leading into my town and I think all the ones in my town that were created in the early 1900s were taken from this tree literally horizontal from the tree I first posted and its HUGE. The mother tree *


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## PinkFloydEffect

*So Cool!*

*Here is the problem with this massive Campdown Elm, it is either (1) diseased or (2) it has something to do with the trunk rot. *






*Here is the trunk rot, I'm no expert but it kind of looks like a graft rejection on this side but I have other theory's as well. *






*Here is the OTHER side of the trunk, and here is my other theory and that is that there is a girdling root constricting the other side of the tree. *






*Look closely, see the flower bed mulch retainer? And the missing taper? GIRDLERS! Someone raised the dirt level around the trunk like a god damn retard.*






*Now I know what your saying there is no graft ring or meet joint, well that's what I thought at first too until I looked at these pictures more closely its hiding very well! This tree is so darn old the graft is smooth and I am certain because the bark split is noticeable up close, the bottom bark is identical to the previous tree and the top bark is identical to the previous trees top bark.*






*It really is a beautiful tree:*






*Many dead branches:*










*Looks like I have my work cut out for me I am going to knock on these peoples door tell them the Campdown Elm story and then do some free work just so I can see this thing live. I don't climb but I can prune anything dead I can reach and perform what I am best at, root collar corrections.*


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## bsearcey

Man I wish I knew more about plant pathology to give you some advice on what to do. Sounds like you already have a good idea about 1 possible issue. The trunk rot looks pretty bad. Hopefully it can be saved. I just want to point out that some of the leaves (especially in the last pictures labeled Dead Branches) appear to have damage from insects. The pattern just resembles insect grazing. I'm sure you'll get some responses from some more knowledgable folks on the forum.

I would be extremely cautious in undertaking any work on this tree. I would certainly get something in writing from the owners saying that you will not be held liable if the tree does not survive. I'd hate to think what the value on that tree would be $$$$$$$.


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## rarefish383

Do Not Mess with those trees. The mulch doesn't look that bad, and it's not like back fill. The trees look pretty healthy. They do look like they have some insect feeding on them, but not lethal amounts. If you were to do anything to one of those trees and it died, whether your fault or not, the owner might come after you for some big money. If these trees are all but irreplaceable you don't want to get caught up in a legal mess. If you want to give the home owner a history of the tree and show them the bad spots, that's fine. Recommend that they get a licensed specialist to look at the tree. Thanks again for this one, Joe.


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## PinkFloydEffect

bsearcey said:


> Man I wish I knew more about plant pathology to give you some advice on what to do. Sounds like you already have a good idea about 1 possible issue. The trunk rot looks pretty bad. Hopefully it can be saved. I just want to point out that some of the leaves (especially in the last pictures labeled Dead Branches) appear to have damage from insects. The pattern just resembles insect grazing. I'm sure you'll get some responses from some more knowledgable folks on the forum.
> 
> I would be extremely cautious in undertaking any work on this tree. I would certainly get something in writing from the owners saying that you will not be held liable if the tree does not survive. I'd hate to think what the value on that tree would be $$$$$$$.



I am going to release myself before I touch it good thinking. I really can't see anything but sucess though.



rarefish383 said:


> Do Not Mess with those trees. The mulch doesn't look that bad, and it's not like back fill. The trees look pretty healthy. They do look like they have some insect feeding on them, but not lethal amounts. If you were to do anything to one of those trees and it died, whether your fault or not, the owner might come after you for some big money. If these trees are all but irreplaceable you don't want to get caught up in a legal mess. If you want to give the home owner a history of the tree and show them the bad spots, that's fine. Recommend that they get a licensed specialist to look at the tree. Thanks again for this one, Joe.



? the other one is fine it's the big one. That is not even mulch dude thats straight up 2 inches of potting soil that was raised around the trunk its completely obvious. The person that lives there is a very old elderly man with no money, so I'm sure he will write off any liability on work if its free. I know its a hard tree to determine the outcome on but if he gives me the OK and even IF it dosent make it, I still learnt something if we never try then we never know how to adress this in the future. I will widespread all the results so people can learn from me if it becomes a mistake. The world learns form trial and error and not many have had to oppertunity to adress one of these.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Ready, Set, GO!*

:biggrinbounce2: *After knocking on these peoples door everyday now for a few days I finally caught a grandson in the yard and got to the property owners. Old elderly couple, I said sir do you know the story behind your big tree? What tree, the Camperdown Elm? YES! So you know? Know what? ...So I brought the couple out front with their grandson and told them to have a seat, we chatted about the tree I told them the story behind it, then they told me theirs. The old lady said 20 years ago she came running out front in her bath robe yelling at the town in the middle of the winter (they were removing a limb from the grid, and they left no collar the fking idiots). They told me I am free to do whatever I please to try and help it and freed myself from all future responsibility for its condition or collapse. I did not make them sign anything because they were so nice I just sealed the deal with a few handshakes I think I should be good. So after I am finished putting new struts in a friends car this will be my neck project so I will keep everyone updated, now's the chance to experiment and let us all learn a thing or two about this tree? *


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## yooper

PinkFloydEffect said:


> :biggrinbounce2: *After knocking on these peoples door everyday now for a few days I finally caught a grandson in the yard and got to the property owners. Old elderly couple, I said sir do you know the story behind your big tree? What tree, the Camperdown Elm? YES! So you know? Know what? ...So I brought the couple out front with their grandson and told them to have a seat, we chatted about the tree I told them the story behind it, then they told me theirs. The old lady said 20 years ago she came running out front in her bath robe yelling at the town in the middle of the winter (they were removing a limb from the grid, and they left no collar the fking idiots). They told me I am free to do whatever I please to try and help it and freed myself from all future responsibility for its condition or collapse. I did not make them sign anything because they were so nice I just sealed the deal with a few handshakes I think I should be good. So after I am finished putting new struts in a friends car this will be my neck project so I will keep everyone updated, now's the chance to experiment and let us all learn a thing or two about this tree? *



good on you for helpen out a couple older folk. I'll hang around and watch yer thread. I have also been inspired by these trees. I know of 4 here in the U.P. that I have run across. If I get in the area of the other 3 I will snap a photo for you. highly unlikely though they are about 100 miles away.


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## PinkFloydEffect

yooper said:


> good on you for helpen out a couple older folk. I'll hang around and watch yer thread. I have also been inspired by these trees. I know of 4 here in the U.P. that I have run across. If I get in the area of the other 3 I will snap a photo for you. highly unlikely though they are about 100 miles away.



I've seen quite a handful around my town, wiki says Stockbridge is one of the only places in the US they were brought to which is why there are quite a few around my town, BUT they are all the size of the first tree I posted, this one towers over them all by FAR. I think this is the areas "mother" but that's just my happy thought.

Says that they ARE susceptible to DED and the WYCH Elm is highly susceptible which is what this tree is (with a mutant Wych top) but the wiki for Wych Elm says "The tree usually succumbs to disease a few years after achieving sexual maturity." does this mean they do not show that they are diseased until it's too late and they are mature like this one? Because there is definitely something wrong with the tree if any of you can help, not only the random dead branches but also the leaves have crispy strips in them. 

This HAS to be elm leaf miner! It is covered in the things BADLY. Now the question is how do I kill them because they drop to the ground in early June to go underground. So what do I spray under the drip line to kill them???


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## PinkFloydEffect

*This tree has always reminded me of this poster:*




















*I think those black things are the miners themselves, tree is covered head to toe in them*





*Normal taper on healthy side of the tree:*




*
No taper on unhealthy side:*





*Unhealthy sides missing limbs I can count 3:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Last call before I start*

So place your bets now, I think I have got it figured out. There is a stone wall that is on the same side as the trunk rot and graft rejection. I think the tree is older than the wall and someone back filled this side of the front yard which is why the flare is only visible on the opposite side. So I am just trying to call this one out before I start, I will measure the walls height and compare it to my results when I reach the taper and flare on this side.


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## bsearcey

Buenas suerte.


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## Ed Roland

tomtrees58 said:


> hey yoopers is that a monkey in the windowopcorn:








Damn if it aint. Looks like a watch on his arm too!


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## yooper

Ed Roland said:


>



hey I missed toms post......no Its been a couple years since I took that photo but I think its a world globe If I remember right. It was down town Houghton Michigan and the old bat that lived in the house chased me out of there when she seen me taken the photos. Crazy old Finlanders. ☺


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## PinkFloydEffect

^ :hmm3grin2orange:


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## treeclimber101

yooper said:


> hey I missed toms post......no Its been a couple years since I took that photo but I think its a world globe If I remember right. It was down town Houghton Michigan and the old bat that lived in the house chased me out of there when she seen me taken the photos. Crazy old Finlanders. ☺



That monkey got a big set of lips .....


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## himiler

If this tree has historic signifigance you might end up being able to find something from the local library or college on it. If things start to get expensive or something else happens, the local community either official or unoffical may provide an avenue for assistance. 
I'm not one to run to the city fathers for help or even worse advice, but this would seem just the living history the local community should want to preserve.
Steve


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## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> If this tree has historic signifigance you might end up being able to find something from the local library or college on it. If things start to get expensive or something else happens, the local community either official or unoffical may provide an avenue for assistance.
> I'm not one to run to the city fathers for help or even worse advice, but this would seem just the living history the local community should want to preserve.
> Steve



I wish that the town felt that way about their shade trees we have the worst maintenance of shade trees I've ever seen. When I go to buy pesticides I might ask the town for assistance. I'm guessing the municipal grounds service for my town?


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Todays Work*

*So today I just couldn't help but get a start on this bad boy so before I even touch the root flare, I needed to clear my working space seeing how this tree is way overdue for some cosmetic pruning (when will I ever get the chance to prune a camperdown again?) not to mention I think the graft rejection/rot could use a little sunlight and some fresh air/breeze. These are before and after screen shots from the video I took doing it.*











*
This is a video I took today of what I THINK are true wych elm whips or suckers coming from a surfacing root off the trunk. They are growing upward so I don't think it is mutant like the top! Take a look tell me what you think because I am going to start pulling clones from this root and starting some wych elm bases for my future camperdown elms! So looks like I will be able to supply you guys with both a top and bottom to start your own. I will leave a few leaves so I continuously get new suckers hopefully (once black screen appears video is done): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjXf6Wi4TbI *


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## ROOTSXROCKS

Your Video Is Private PFE


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## PinkFloydEffect

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Your Video Is Private PFE



S.H.I.T try now man :bang:

The root collar correction is up next! :biggrinbounce2:


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## bsearcey

I would say those suckers are Wych Elm since like you said they are coming off of the root. Way to go PFE. Very nice job on the prunning.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Thank You*



bsearcey said:


> I would say those suckers are Wych Elm since like you said they are coming off of the root. Way to go PFE. Very nice job on the prunning.



Thanks for your opinion I appreciate it! It's kind of a win/lose situation. If the tree was never put into stress at the buttress then these suckers would have never grown, first camperdown I have seen with suckers and there is only 1 company online that sells Wych elms they seem to be more rare then American elms. Coming from the Asian minor they are a decent ded alternative even grown normally. I find Camperdowns hard to age because the grafts are all below breast height at about 4'


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## himiler

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I wish that the town felt that way about their shade trees we have the worst maintenance of shade trees I've ever seen. When I go to buy pesticides I might ask the town for assistance. I'm guessing the municipal grounds service for my town?



I'm so far away from you not only in terms of distance, but also in the way people think. Hopefully others living in that part of the country can contribute. For me, I would start with the municipal Public Works Department and then move my way up to City Council. My attitude is they're here to serve the public. The City Council is elected by the community, and the city employees are paid through our local taxes.
Steve


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## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> I'm so far away from you not only in terms of distance, but also in the way people think. Hopefully others living in that part of the country can contribute. For me, I would start with the municipal Public Works Department and then move my way up to City Council. My attitude is they're here to serve the public. The City Council is elected by the community, and the city employees are paid through our local taxes.
> Steve



I'm not good at this political stuff and history. I don't even know if that's what you call it, but I will take this into thought after the municipal grounds denies me haha. The MA forester told me that they cut out the department or whatever it was you used to call to report dutch elm diseased elms because of budget reasons.


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## himiler

Keep us posted. Probably won't comment any more, but I will be watching with interest.
Thanks. It's a good story to follow. Oh, and I might be passing through on my way to Vermont next month. Where is this exactly?


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## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> Keep us posted. Probably won't comment any more, but I will be watching with interest.
> Thanks. It's a good story to follow. Oh, and I might be passing through on my way to Vermont next month. Where is this exactly?



I will, check out the video links. It is located on lower Parker Street Gardner MA 01440 between Shell/Dunkin Donuts & Tedeshi/Dominos Pizza I promote people coming over to see the tree it truly is amazing. If I remember I will mark its GPS points on Google or something.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Update*

Today I started the root collar correction and oh god is this a freakn mess compared to any other tree I have done. Roots grafted over roots and I mean some big ones real close to the surface, not that much that I can do I am going to leave them be. The only ones I might touch are directly under the rotting area (the bark fell right off up and down that stripe with a finger pull). I need to hit that side with the hose more to find out what is hiding a little deeper it can't be just a graft rejection causing the rot it has got to be the other way around something causing the rot which is causing the rejection.

Aside from that I assisted the suckers (pruned back dead leaves and dead ended twigs) I am using this yellow milk crate to prop up the suckers off the ground so they can get established, I really hope they are native wych and not mutant wych. In a few weeks I should have some nice healthy cultivars to clone from for my future Camperdown rootstock.


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## yooper

Not sure if you have found out the source of the leaf browning yet but maby it could be this

http://bugs.osu.edu/~bugdoc/Shetlar/factsheet/ornamental/FSelmcasebearer.htm

I found it on this page here.

http://www.corm.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=125


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## PinkFloydEffect

yooper said:


> Not sure if you have found out the source of the leaf browning yet but maby it could be this
> 
> http://bugs.osu.edu/~bugdoc/Shetlar/factsheet/ornamental/FSelmcasebearer.htm
> 
> I found it on this page here.
> 
> http://www.corm.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=125



I did see that but I am leaning toward elm leaf miner, also they told me before this problem occurred the leaves used to turn yellow and fall off, this tree might have elm yellows, along with the one right down the street you can see in the first pictures there are some yellow areas.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Clones*

*So this is all I was able to pull for clones so far:*




*
I am going to be using a few different methods here, soil with extra perlite and rock-wool cubes.*





*I have both rooting powder and gel:*





*One is powder and the other is gel:*





*This one in the rock-wool has both gel with some sprinkled powder but the leaves are turning purple already:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*The small clone in the rockwool did not take and the small one in soil is now dieing off but the larger clipping is hanging on:*






*So I put the bag back over the top to retain moisture but realize it closes it off to Co2:*






*So I made a Co2 generator out of a vitamin water bottle a piece of hose, some warm water, sugar & yeast. The byproduct is lots of Co2 which rises up the tube and falls into the bag:*














*So basically I think I need to take larger clippings with at least 1 or 2 large leafs to gather light and create energy to sustain the rooting. *


*This is the tree in June 2010*






*And this is the tree we think between 1890-1905 I scanned it in off a thin photo glued to a piece of black cardboard I removed from the frame, no date however but if I can get a 1900 confirmation that makes this tree 110 years old! It was a perfect tree when it was young completely round to the ground.*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*~Mon~*

*So the clones all died, I am going to try some new methods I will post them. 

Here is the full size unknown date photo from above (100years give or take old):*





*
Then I toyed around with remastering it:*






*...Then it turned into a rainy outside so...*






*Basically this is what I have as an end result for this trees youth so far:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Great News*

*So, here is the final cut of part 1 for this tree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIXwkyLLbbM*


*Here are a few updated shots of the tree, work in progress:*










*Did not exactly find the girdling root I was hoping to find, is it possible the stripe on the bark could be caused from the oozing slime flux running down it? In that case I'm done digging just need to find out why it is oozing slime flux at the graft meet (dead removed limb there?) *










*Out of the 8-10 Camperdowns in my town this is the only one not grafted onto a Wych Elm. It appears that the rootstock is the same as the top grafted camperdown bark?! Someone grafted a camperdown onto a camperdown? I know they throw off seeds and not sure how stable the mutant seedlings grow to be but it appears that might be what they did here:*














*But this one appears to have the same type of graft rejection rot as my project tree so I am definitely ruling out the girdling root theory:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*More Info*

*So this is THE largest Camperdown in Gardner, trunk circumference of 9' 8" which is just 6" larger then my project tree however my project tree is against a house shading 40-50% of sunlight where this one is out in the open. So given the light factors and maintenance costs that 6" difference might still mean these two trees where planted around the same time. Gardner was the furniture capital of the world in the early 1900s so there was a few very wealthy people living in the area, both these trees are on the same original road between two towns. There was another one planted to the left of this one but it died, the tree is on the property of the old Heywood Mansion. The owner came outside and told me he believed it was planted in 1878, my project tree is still taller though. *






*This picture was from the early 90's*






*This picture is very very old I believe the original Heywood Mansion on the left. The tree hard to identify but is in the middle:*






*Trunk close up, you can barely see the graft meet:*






*The graft meet is starting to turn that same color as my project tree's rot:*






*Here is a view of the tree from the pool which is now where the mansion used to sit: *






*ONLY my project tree and this tree are throwing suckers, no more crusading to start Wych Elms from clones this guy has several within 50ft. of the tree that are 3-5ft. tall dominate Wych. I can just dig them up and plant them in buckets to transport them, try to get enough of the roots. He has dug a few up and given them away he says, but I explained to him that they will not grow into Camperdown Elms.*


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## ROOTSXROCKS

Nice Article PFE, I like the rainy day colored B&W


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## himiler

I'll be in the area from Texas in about a week or so, hoping I can drop by and take a look. Looks like a grand tree to be working on. Keep up the good work, oh and the updates too!
Steve W


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> I'll be in the area from Texas in about a week or so, hoping I can drop by and take a look. Looks like a grand tree to be working on. Keep up the good work, oh and the updates too!
> Steve W



PM me and I will show you them all personally if you would like.

*Right down the road there is an actual full grown Wych Elm probably THE ONLY large Wych Elm in Gardner. *


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Almost Done!*

*I finished the root work today, definitely ruled out the girdling, however there ARE some huge girdles on the other side that seem to have grafted fine though. The rotted stripe on the bark HAS to be from the slime flux running down it! So now what? I really do not want to risk drilling a hole and inserting a pipe to direct the flux away from the trunk but I need to rig up SOMETHING, any ideas? The bark ripped right off with the pull of a finger. *













*I applied 3 bags of manure/compost mix, and even some grass seed *


----------



## bsearcey

Found this article on slime flux (you've probably already seen it). Basically covers what you've said you've done, but ultimately it says not to really try and treat it that it should go away on it's own and you could do more damage (drill and pipe).

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/oldnotes/od8.html

Are you planning on leaving those roots exposed like that?

Good work PFE.

BTW - What have the home owner's had to say about your work?


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

bsearcey said:


> Found this article on slime flux (you've probably already seen it). Basically covers what you've said you've done, but ultimately it says not to really try and treat it that it should go away on it's own and you could do more damage (drill and pipe).
> 
> http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/oldnotes/od8.html
> 
> Are you planning on leaving those roots exposed like that?
> 
> Good work PFE.
> 
> BTW - What have the home owner's had to say about your work?



Yeah I have read a lot on it, the pipe method is very hit or miss so it's not worth it. I was thinking on hitting that spot with the hose every few days to keep things clear. 

Yes I was planning on leaving it exposed, those are more less flares at this point and should harden up like many street trees I have dealt with. I will be adding an inch of mulch soon as well but not too much higher.

The homeowners are very happy, we have kind of become friends in a way I walk by there everyday and have worked on the tree probably 10 times so far.


----------



## JeffL

You just covered about 2% of the actual absorbing roots with manure. You're probably doing more harm than good by exposing all those fibrous roots and then burying them shallow under a skim coat of light material. They'll probably just dry out and die, especially in this weather lately. Hope you're over there watering it. 1" of mulch? Try more like 3.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

JeffL said:


> You just covered about 2% of the actual absorbing roots with manure. You're probably doing more harm than good by exposing all those fibrous roots and then burying them shallow under a skim coat of light material. They'll probably just dry out and die, especially in this weather lately. Hope you're over there watering it. 1" of mulch? Try more like 3.



Many of those are from the hosta bulbs, I did not want to put too much compost on there it's used to fertilizer sticks. I was also told never to put too much mulch on a tree for the first time but I will put lots, just not near the trunk I am trying t get oxygen on these somewhat flares. They water it almost every day during dry hot weather because they are prone to drought.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Update*

*This was all I had access to, about an inch of undied natural mulch. I may be able to get another inch worth this week, but I swear just since I added the compost in just a few days the canopy perked right up and I swear got greener. *


----------



## himiler

Great Pics! Your statement of the tree health after your work reminds me of how I feel after washing & waxing my car, always seems to run better.
We're in Vermont right now, trying to see how taking a detour to go see the Camperdowns is going to work in. 
The trees in the Northeast are truly incredible. Land of opportunity for an arborist.
Steve W.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> Great Pics! Your statement of the tree health after your work reminds me of how I feel after washing & waxing my car, always seems to run better.
> We're in Vermont right now, trying to see how taking a detour to go see the Camperdowns is going to work in.
> The trees in the Northeast are truly incredible. Land of opportunity for an arborist.
> Steve W.



Thanks gotta share  Cars, Trees, Woman, their all the same. Take the detour it's well worth it! I can guide you toward 10 Camperdowns and a handful of large American elm trees. I would love to live closer to the equator but I will never leave my hilly New England and it's trees.


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

himiler said:


> Great Pics! Your statement of the tree health after your work reminds me of how I feel after washing & waxing my car, always seems to run better.
> We're in Vermont right now, trying to see how taking a detour to go see the Camperdowns is going to work in.
> The trees in the Northeast are truly incredible. Land of opportunity for an arborist.
> Steve W.


When I wash my truck I'm aleways worried what will decide to break.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Added another inch of mulch a few days ago:*


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Help On The Way Slipknot*

*Well this flux area has started to dry up nicely now *










*This area is also looking better, I did knock out a few chunks of wood with a rubber mallet a few weeks ago and am thinking about going back for some more with a chizel to help it out because of the callusing.*









*
Check out the small cracks in the bark where the callus is expanding, this is good! I need to clear this dead wood for it's path:*










*Here is a questionable problem though, is this the first sign of this years elm yellows? They said every year the leaves turn yellow early and fall off, does it start with a single branch and work across the tree because this is the only branch on the whole tree yellow? *





*
This description sure does look and fit the symptoms of the suckers...* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_Yellows


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Frig*

*BAM just like that gone the whole branch, now the one to the right is going as well  son of a btch. I wonder if those 2 roots you can see I cut ^ that are directly lined up the trunk parallel to this limb have anything to do with it, dowt it though. *


----------



## JeffL

We're in a drought, a few dead limbs here and there in the trees isnt going to be anything to worry about.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

JeffL said:


> We're in a drought, a few dead limbs here and there in the trees isnt going to be anything to worry about.



Looks like all sun no rain this weekend, I will soak it tomorrow.


----------



## treeseer

Great Work!

that "flux area" looks like it comes from a hole--ream it out and check for bugs

yes chiseloing the loose crap out of that perennial canker may speed closure. also please take closeups of that conk for ID. slice open too.

Looks like a few more cuts could be made on girdling roots--Paint lines where you think you might do this.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

treeseer said:


> Great Work!
> 
> that "flux area" looks like it comes from a hole--ream it out and check for bugs
> 
> yes chiseloing the loose crap out of that perennial canker may speed closure. also please take closeups of that conk for ID. slice open too.
> 
> Looks like a few more cuts could be made on girdling roots--Paint lines where you think you might do this.



Thank you, which flux area there are two? There's a small area that doesn't have a hole and there's the large open wound that has flux and a possibly slit it comes from. I will chisel away this week at some point, and take lots of photos as always 

As far as the girdling roots go I don't think I am going to mess with them again until next spring I have other stuff that needs help now that its already mulched in, like dead wood removal and such.


----------



## treeseer

the smaller wet area does appear to have a hole at the top.

put off more root work thats fine but do in september 2011 not spring.

this ncsu paper is not accurate--disappointing to see dr. grand's name on it. :bang:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/oldnotes/od8.html

removing rot and rinsing away gunk is a good idea.

attached paper has been peer-reviewed. it was written about oaks but may apply to other species.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

treeseer said:


> the smaller wet area does appear to have a hole at the top.
> 
> put off more root work thats fine but do in september 2011 not spring.
> 
> this ncsu paper is not accurate--disappointing to see dr. grand's name on it. :bang:
> http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/pp/notes/oldnotes/od8.html
> 
> removing rot and rinsing away gunk is a good idea.
> 
> attached paper has been peer-reviewed. it was written about oaks but may apply to other species.



Thanks! I did read that article before lol

September? Ugh what an inconvenience I guess I might as well hack away some more on one of my old growth maples then next month. Thanks for all the stuff, I will post what I come up with after some delicate chiseling work


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Update*

*I had a little free time spent about an hour chiseling away. Noting unusual just some ear wigs, spiders, and white grubs/centipedes here and there. Still needs another hour of chiseling before it's cleaned out though. *


























*Here is the smaller rotting area and the bark under it could easily be pulled off with a few fingers in large sheets like the other side, should I? This bark is never going to reattach itself to the tree anyway now it just needs air right? Then there is another spot I noticed today with no rot yet but while tapping around with a rubber mallet I heard and saw the dead bark stripe down the drunk in between the red lines. *


----------



## treeseer

good job chiseling so far

that fungus--small brown conk-- looks like a weak pathogen.

the hollow-sounding area just stops at the dotted line? not unusual for crevices to rot, but then again some elm bark sounds dead when actually there is just an air pocket between it and living phloem, so proceed with caution


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

treeseer said:


> good job chiseling so far
> 
> that fungus--small brown conk-- looks like a weak pathogen.
> 
> the hollow-sounding area just stops at the dotted line? not unusual for crevices to rot, but then again some elm bark sounds dead when actually there is just an air pocket between it and living phloem, so proceed with caution



Thanks, I am going to admit I don't know what a conk is or a pathogen. Is this bad? 

Yes the hollow sound stops at the red line and also stops exactly at the graft line, there's is a piece at the bottom you can see that came off really easily. I will leave it alone, but I have observed two things lately. 1 is a white color in some areas, looks like spray paint and hard to get on camera tried. 2 is white mushrooms growing at the corner of the sidewalk about 6 feet away from the trunk.


----------



## treeseer

, I am going to admit I don't know what a conk is or a pathogen. Is this bad? 

look it up

Yes the hollow sound stops at the red line and also stops exactly at the graft line, there's is a piece at the bottom you can see that came off really easily. I will leave it alone, but I have observed two things lately. 1 is a white color in some areas, looks like spray paint and hard to get on camera tried.

if onbly on the outside of the bark then no problem; could be lichen

2 is white mushrooms growing at the corner of the sidewalk about 6 feet away from the trunk. 

pic?


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

treeseer said:


> , I am going to admit I don't know what a conk is or a pathogen. Is this bad?
> 
> look it up
> 
> Yes the hollow sound stops at the red line and also stops exactly at the graft line, there's is a piece at the bottom you can see that came off really easily. I will leave it alone, but I have observed two things lately. 1 is a white color in some areas, looks like spray paint and hard to get on camera tried.
> 
> if onbly on the outside of the bark then no problem; could be lichen
> 
> 2 is white mushrooms growing at the corner of the sidewalk about 6 feet away from the trunk.
> 
> pic?



My bad I looked them up. There is no fruiting conks that I am aware of. 

The season seems to be ending I kicked the last one yesterday if they come back I will photograph them.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Uh oh, I spotted this today crawling around. Is it helping the deadwood removal or is it a pest/larv?*










*I took a video of it moving:*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMKpJgolusY


----------



## treeseer

yup thats it; give it a burial at the dripline!


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

treeseer said:


> yup thats it; give it a burial at the dripline!



Yep thats it what!? The end of my tree or nothing to worry about?


----------



## treeseer

" Is it helping the deadwood removal or is it a pest/larva?"

All the above. extract and bury it and its ilk.


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

elm leaf miner


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

This is really galling


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

Darn, I knew the tree was already infected with the leaf miner I just did not know they bury into the trunk. Maybe that small fluxing area is full of them? The second photo I have never seen that before, but what will the removal of 1 worm do this thing must be infested with them!


----------



## himiler

himiler said:


> I'll be in the area from Texas in about a week or so, hoping I can drop by and take a look. Looks like a grand tree to be working on. Keep up the good work, oh and the updates too!
> Steve W



Try as I might, I just couldn't make it. So close and yet so far away. Ah well, got a daughter talking about moving up to Utica New York. Who knows?
Thanks for the invite anyway.
Steve W.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

I got to the bottom of the yellowing sections! Appears to me at least, that this is completely normal. Being the largest of its kind anywhere around, it started showing signs early of fall. Within a few weeks after my observation I noticed other Camperdowns about 1/3-1/4 the size of this one taking on the same yellowing in remote areas. Thank god for the false alarm but the rot spots are still getting at me, should I just start spooning away the bark on the smaller of the two holes/rot areas? There's no opening YET on the small area but what if its a ball of larva ready to burst next year? I just don't know where to take this from here. 
:monkey:


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Video of the tree work PART 2!* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn4tCXbajPE


----------



## bsearcey

Very cool. Thanks.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

bsearcey said:


> Very cool. Thanks.



Thank YOU, how did I do? Did I go too far while removing that hosta bank around the flare?


----------



## bsearcey

Man I'm just a follower, so I can't comment on it from an educated/experienced POV. I'm sure some others will be along to let you know. It looked good to me thougt FWIW. Two thumbs up.


----------



## himiler

bsearcey said:


> Man I'm just a follower, so I can't comment on it from an educated/experienced POV. I'm sure some others will be along to let you know. It looked good to me thougt FWIW. Two thumbs up.



+1 ! 
Great work ethic and focus. Good on ya! 
Steve W.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> +1 !
> Great work ethic and focus. Good on ya!
> Steve W.



His comment or my work? haha

I'm still battling that wound, the dark bark strip widened I think since I chiseled some dead wood from the edges of that wound so that the callus lips would close easier with nothing their way.


----------



## yooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCZ_iLv7jJY&NR=1:)


----------



## brnchbrkr

PinkFloydEffect said:


> *Video of the tree work PART 2!* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn4tCXbajPE



What kind of Camera did you use?

Rep sent.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

yooper said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCZ_iLv7jJY&NR=1:)



All I have to say is wow... what an amazing song, is that you? I don't know of a single DeadHead/Babyboomer that could interpret those lyrics the way I just did, I give it two thumbs up...and my big toe 



brnchbrkr said:


> What kind of Camera did you use?
> 
> Rep sent.



I use a Panasonic HDC-SD9 with a lens hood they are among the worlds smallest full 1920x1080P HD cameras (3CCD of course) with optimized image stabilization ...not too shabby?

Appreciated and returned :biggrinbounce2:


----------



## yooper

PinkFloydEffect said:


> All I have to say is wow... what an amazing song, is that you? I don't know of a single DeadHead/Babyboomer that could interpret those lyrics the way I just did, I give it two thumbs up...and my big toe
> 
> 
> 
> :



no not me I cant sing and the only thing I know how to play is the radio. good work on the tree.


----------



## himiler

*The tree's in Wikipedia*

Hey! Looked at Wikipedia to check the growing zones and there's your tree!
Congrats dude, you're famous, er, or at least the tree is. You're the unnamed person performing the restoration.
Steve W.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> Hey! Looked at Wikipedia to check the growing zones and there's your tree!
> Congrats dude, you're famous, er, or at least the tree is. You're the unnamed person performing the restoration.
> Steve W.



hehe... I'm the one who added the article :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## bsearcey

PinkFloydEffect said:


> hehe... I'm the one who added the article :hmm3grin2orange:



Too funny! (In a very cool way!!!!)


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

bsearcey said:


> Too funny!



Well, read the Camperdownii article on there, is the tree not worthy of it or what?


----------



## bsearcey

PinkFloydEffect said:


> Well, read the Camperdownii article on there, is the tree not worthy of it or what?



I did read it and couldn't agree more. That tree is certainly worthy of being included. That's not what I intended to imply. I just thought it was funny (in a cool way) that you included it. I think you are the first person I know (in the forum sense) to actually contribute information to wikipedia.

I've corrected my earlier post...


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Here it is, in 30F weather:*










*Responding as expectedish...*

























*Lots of buds:*


----------



## himiler

That graft rejection adds quite a bit of character.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*I still have lots of unsolved problems like the smaller rot area??*










*

There is a passage in some hollow sounding bark that dosen't look good:*





*
Lots of lost limbs from the past, some of the edges of their calluses look like the larger graft meet rot area so I am wondering if my "graft rejection" theory is wrong and there was a lower limb there. *










*
This one was the power company 5-10 years ago:*






*December... the Camperdowns are the LAST to drop their leaves (literally first or second frost) *


----------



## bsearcey

I like the tree more without leaves. The branching is ridiculous.


----------



## M.D. Vaden

bsearcey said:


> I like the tree more without leaves. The branching is ridiculous.



Agreed, the branching is rediculous.

They are becoming more uncommon out here all the time, understandably.

Although, I prefer one of them to a weeping cherry.


----------



## rmh3481

Pink,
Truly enjoyed your thread. Keep up the good work.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

Thanks guys, actually I do a lot of amateur film making and these trees have inspired me. So I'm going to try and make the time to shoot some scenes of all the notable Camperdowns in my town using a camera dolly and blend summer shots into winter shots with no leafs.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Help?*

It's that time again, spring! This is when I need to take on my elm leaf miner problem, so what I was able to grasp is to spray the leaves before they get munched on so the leaf miners will eat the poison. I am limited on equipment so I will be hand climbing the tree along with the use of latters to spray the foliage with some sort of a back pack sprayer. 

*What do I use?? The best I was able to research last year is to use Criterion 75 WSP Insecticide (replaces Merit 75)*

There seems to also be a root drench method, maybe combine both methods to be effective?


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

I would go with just the drench of Imidicloprid, though i think that should have been done last fall for best uptake.

When i was treating, ten years ago, we would have used Orthene. Is it still available??


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I would go with just the drench of Imidicloprid, though i think that should have been done last fall for best uptake.
> 
> When i was treating, ten years ago, we would have used Orthene. Is it still available??



I don't know man pesticides aren't my thing. All I know is I have got to make some sort of attempt before they start munching. This is a historic tree fading away.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*The new shoots are large this year, after it is treated for leaf miners I will be able to take cuttings. *






*This must be the eggs or something, the poor tree is COVERED in them!*











*The attack has begun, but it has not broken out like this everywhere yet, so I'm assuming I should give it more time before application of Talstar? *


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Not doing too good here people! Untreated as is there are less leaf miners this year (not sure if that is because of the canopy level raise). But on the flip side I am having horrible lower trunk problems (not sure if that is because of the exposed crotch now after the canopy raise). *






*This spot is new, you see I don't know if the tree is just fluxing from overall weakness or maybe some of these areas are wounds that did not heal correctly/fast enough, became soft and took on insects/borers and THOSE are what is causing the fluxing (I think it's flux, the ants and bees seem to like it so it must be sweet) *






*The limb the power company removed 5+ years ago is also looking pretty dank, I don't know what to do! Clearly it can not do it on it's own:*











*This is the mysterious small fluxing area from last year, looking worse this year...*


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*These are what I believe to be borer holes in the deadwood of the largest wound??*


























*There is this dead beetle on the opposite side of the tree, MUCH larger than any hole (like a huge bumble bee)*


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

*Awwwwwww CHIT!*

*Stupid ass fluckin gas company "UNITIL" found a leak in their century old pipeline running to the house. I really had it out with them until the officer directing traffic stepped in and asked if there were any problems. The town is the one who hacked a limb off without leaving a collar and now there are serious problems. I saw the backhoe shaking the tree from down the street at my grandparents and I was down there like a fly on a piece of chit. *


----------



## NCTREE

They really f-ed that tree up! If that was my tree i'd be tearing someone a new #######!


----------



## Ed Roland

PFE, thats not good. You gotta perform some triage. Can you still get in that hole to clean up those rip cuts? Give her water and hope shes sturdy.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

I'm so mad, if this tree dies I'm completely destroying the company name and going after the town. This is the healthy side of the tree and I probably wont be able to cut those roots, it's already under stress so if it died they would be paying for the full removal. If this was a historically protected tree I could have acted, I mean... it IS historical but there is no way to protect it. Will this affect using pesticides now?


----------



## Ed Roland

PinkFloydEffect said:


> Will this affect using pesticides now?


 
Fall application of immidacloprid for the leaf miner issue? Stressed trees are even more susceptible to infection and infestation. Be sure to follow the label. 

It would be worth the effort to dig out the soil to make those proper cuts on the torn roots. Think of all that ragged torn surface area allowing all kinds of free entry to unwanted organisms.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

I don't think I can legally dig their gas line back up. I sent them down to the local farm to grab a bunch of bags of natural compost/manure mix, hopefully it will help. Also the pesticide I planned on applying this week I misread the label it says "spring-fall" so that must mean THROUGH, the only problem with that is I am not supposed to water it too often as to not delude the pesticide faster than the tree can use it, so how am I going to keep it well hydrated now?


----------



## yooper

Sorry to see the tree you worked so hard on getting put through so much stress.


----------



## Ed Roland

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I don't think I can legally dig their gas line back up. I sent them down to the local farm to grab a bunch of bags of natural compost/manure mix, hopefully it will help. Also the pesticide I planned on applying this week I misread the label it says "spring-fall" so that must mean THROUGH, the only problem with that is I am not supposed to water it too often as to not delude the pesticide faster than the tree can use it, so how am I going to keep it well hydrated now?


 
Not all the way down to the gas line just to the roots. Take off the 10 - 12" of soil to the roots and clean up the cuts, fill the soil back in. 20 minutes and you have done much good. 

Imidacloprid takes time to be absorbed and then move throughout the tissues so we apply it well before its needed as stated on label. 
"I am not supposed to water it too often as to not delude the pesticide faster than the tree can use it" Could the label be referring to a saturated soil at time of application when it speaks of dilution? You want the soil to be wet not saturated. After chemical uptake, water the tree as needed. Its imidacloprids water solubility that allows it to move in sap throughout a tree.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

I shall do that then before they topcoat and seed it. 

What I mean is it says not to apply when the ground is waterlogged, and not to "water in" the pesticide after application. In other words use only the amount of water used to delude/mix the solution during application, don't stand there with a hose after and water it. When the idea of giving it more water was brought to the table I figured every day, so I did not want to water it 1 day after application.


----------



## Ed Roland

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I shall do that then before they topcoat and seed it.
> 
> What I mean is it says not to apply when the ground is waterlogged, and not to "water in" the pesticide after application. In other words use only the amount of water used to delude/mix the solution during application, don't stand there with a hose after and water it. When the idea of giving it more water was brought to the table I figured every day, so I did not want to water it 1 day after application.


 
Water stress is a two way street. Every day would be too much but you gotta know the stress on the system when so many roots are now nonfunctioning at the hottest part of the year. 
Drought is a mighty stressor. Hacking away 1/3 the roots is a mighty stressor, too. Combine mighty stressors and you get tree mortality. Keep the tree properly watered.

In the Fall - water the soil one day and apply chemical the next. Resume proper irrigation after you are sure of uptake - several days. Months down the road the chemical should have translocated upward giving control of the target pest when it is most susceptible. 

You can also look into spending more $ by having an experienced applicator apply paclobutrazol in an effort to increase root density. There would be other benefits to the treatment as well.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

More money is not an option right now, I would say all in all MAYBE 1/4 of the roots were affected and those are within 3ft not the lower roots (there are tons more then 3X what you see holding up this tree).

It says it takes 1 week to 3 month's for larger trees to uptake.


----------



## PinkFloydEffect

I applied the Bonide today since we have had such a warm few weeks, the circumference is about 9'6" so I mixed up 114 FL.oz. in 3 gallons of water (38oz. per gallon). I did 3 rings around the tree, one at 1ft, one at about 2.5ft and another around about 4ft. Well see if the leaf miners come back this year!


----------



## ROOTSXROCKS

Glad to see you still at it PFE


----------



## ROPECLIMBER

Nice Pictures
I read the entire post and (trying to be nice) It reminded me of working on a rare car in a dirt floor garage with no manual an a sledge hammer and a pair a pliers, "loving the tree to death"
Hot munure bagged compost on bare roots.(root burn)
Watering every day (over watering an already stressed tree does more harm than good (Transperational pull) 
Jagged trim back of (epecormic) roots (Delays compartmentalization process and exposes more area to new pathogens)
Digging into decay and hollows (Exposes pathogens to alreaddy walled off areas)CODIT
Trimming shoot tips (exposing trunk to sunscald) and eliminated natural root growth hormones that are produced in tips
removing bark letting any remaining live pyrincima cells dry and dye too (Shigo)
The true root line of a tree goes far beyond the actual canopy, so the backhoe probably severed 45% of support and absorption roots.
The whole thread something said gas leak
They Should have tunneled under with new gas line, 
Ancient trees grow in remote areas where we wont love them to death,
I will probably get crucified for this post but felt compelled to share


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## ROOTSXROCKS

hey were have you been for two years Rope ? 
I had concerns about the exposure of the root but was listening to the advice of treeseer . I certainly don't have the expertise to butt in .
Your comments seem to have some valid science behind them. 
maybe you could comment on my crotch questions and Ill update with the progress thus far on my experiment. http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/165892.htm


Damn Pink I just saw the Gas destruction (i was gone to ban camp ) sorry that city workers are idiots sometimes Ill bet you were pissed .


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## PinkFloydEffect

The gas line was deff a fiasco, I made sure to document it well. If the tree fails this year I'm going to try to use the photos against the gas company and collect some sort of composition for their cheap sloppy work (refused to re-sleeve the pipe, etc.)

If the leaves do not curl up and yellow this summer then I am making progress! 

Some may think my surface root removal was harsh but if a tree WANTS to be saved it will work with you, its a very fine line when to know when to leave a tree alone (too far past correction). I may have crossed that line, but it seems strong enough to cope with the corrections which SHOULD benefit it for the long-term without flare suffocation. I do not recall really removing live bark

I need to get to the bottom of what is boring into the wounds where the tree had lost large limbs, that's what is causing extreme fluxing which is burning the bark on one side of the trunk as is drips down....


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## himiler

Good to see you still at it PFE. You might say the Camperdown fan club has reconvened now that you're posting again. Looking forward to the continuing saga although the latest news isn't what I wanted to hear.
Steve


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## PinkFloydEffect

himiler said:


> Good to see you still at it PFE. You might say the Camperdown fan club has reconvened now that you're posting again. Looking forward to the continuing saga although the latest news isn't what I wanted to hear.
> Steve



I'm really happy to see my research and work is followed up on by so many of you, it's going to be a long summer guys!  I'm working on starting a camperdown nursery I already have the land allotted to me I just need to start my rows of potted Wych Elms. A completely, successfully grafted camperdown could bring upwards of $500+ USD per tree (@ roughly 6ft) since the market is not flooded with them the price is exotic.


*Since you guys are eating up the media here are some more photos of another Camperdown, diagonally across from the Heywood Mansion Caperdown (largest in Gardner). I took them last year, I know I seem to be posting a lot of Camperdowns for a "rare tree" but by no means are these popular go look for yourself and you will see. I just happen to live in an area where there was a Johnny Appleseed of the Camperdowns at one time and I am trying to be that second generation "CamperdownER" spreading the second generation of them. This is on a very nice piece of property like I said digonally across from the Heywood Mansion:*















*The graft meet is spotless, probably chosen from a selection for it's location:*


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## twofusion

cool thread. Good luck and I will continue to follow your updates.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*New Generation*

*SO, I visited the "Heywood Mansion" camperdown previously shown in this thread since I am friends with the property owner. Since I did not have any luck with cloning a base stock (wych elm) I located a handful of seedlings around the tree itself (there are none around other camperdowns; only shooters which roots come from the tree) this Heywood campedown has a large 5 foot tall shooter which probably spawned these seedlings years ago (some hundreds of feet away). Dominate wych elm is even rarer than camperdowns around here:*




















*They are all dominate wych elm, great and hard to find base stock!*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*I will probably wait until next year to graft them once they have established themselves in the pots, I may try one (not sure if times of year make a difference for grafting) I'm going to research up some fruit grafting material since there is none on camperdowns. This is my plan so far though, cut the main leader leaving a branch or two below it with vigorous leafs to continue photosynthesis during the grafting then the branch can be removed once the top has taken and begun to thrive off the main leader:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Aside from the new generation of camperdowns....back to my project tree. The trunk is getting worse and I am almost certain the fluxing is not a borer its just an elm heartwood infection which is incurable. The pictures are 2 years ago and then now:*



















*The rest of the tree, healthy! I have made the decision it would be wise to insert some plastic drain tubes to releave the pressure and safe the bark, which I read is to be 1ft below the exit wound. Two spots on the trunk and possibly a third on this limb wound unless I find the lower, larger trunk wound tubes releave pressure from the upper wounds as well (entire heartwood drain):*






*Nice looking moss but it's probably doing more harm then help haha:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Seeing how everyone is quiet I'm going to keep on trolling haha I have another set of comparisons exactly 2 years apart, you can see that Bonide really helped! I would say 90% of the leaf miners are no longer active, maybe I need a higher dosage or it takes 2 years to reach all ends, works better on each annual application?*











*Overall the tree is much greener and less crispy, but the miners ARE present still. Either way I am impressed with the results but time will tell how green it is come fall time.*


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## ROOTSXROCKS

Glad to see you carry through with this project, that reminds me I need to update my crotch pictures .


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## PinkFloydEffect

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> ...that reminds me I need to update my crotch pictures .



LOL

*I deff made a dramatic difference in the health, but it freed up more green leaf surface area for this OTHER problem (mites??) As you can see still some minor mining but drastically improved overall, what are these tall yellowish things pointing up?!*






*Whatever it is it's population exploded this year, identification HELP!?*


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## NCTREE

They look like galls to me idon't think they are hurting the tree it's just cosmetic.

Insect and Mite Galls


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## PinkFloydEffect

NCTREE said:


> They look like galls to me idon't think they are hurting the tree it's just cosmetic.
> 
> Insect and Mite Galls



Thanks! They seem to match their description, I tracked them down to a spinal gall or pouch gall. As long as they are just cosmetic but...is there a cheap drench that will kill them anyway?


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## sgreanbeans

U could try horti oil, just put a thin coat on, get it at a good nursery. I would put a positive ID on those galls first. Ask JPS, he will know of the top of his head exactly which one that is.


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## ROOTSXROCKS

PinkFloydEffect said:


> Thanks! They seem to match their description, I tracked them down to a spinal gall or pouch gall. As long as they are just cosmetic but...is there a cheap drench that will kill them anyway?



Probably not anything that would touch them at this stage


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## PinkFloydEffect

sgreanbeans said:


> U could try horti oil, just put a thin coat on, get it at a good nursery. I would put a positive ID on those galls first. Ask JPS, he will know of the top of his head exactly which one that is.



It would have to be a drench the tree is far too large to to cover by spraying, I will work on the identification further and try to find the user JPS. 



ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Probably not anything that would touch them at this stage



I figured I could at least get prepared for next year.


--On a side note: I spent several hours yesterday on latters and climbing a little to remove deadwood, most was able to be "knocked" out of the tree with a broom stick/handle. I pruned back a lot of the foliage too that was growing against the trunk and selectively pruned it to grow outwards instead of against the trunk to prevent shady spots getting moist promoting moss and decay. I must have removed 100lbs in deadwood, much more to go! At least it wont attract beetles and deadwood eating pests, also make it easier to monitor the health if new dead spots arrive I will know they are new. With all the "random" dead branches I'm wondering if there is not a little bit of dutch elm disease roaming around this tree, there is a possibility mutant Wych elms are tolerable to DED which is why the tree still stands in OK health.


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Part 3*

*Part 3 of the video version of this thread! Please check it out, lots of flagging probably has DED but I don't know for sure:*

[video=youtube_share;uRPtToEFWbQ]http://youtu.be/uRPtToEFWbQ?hd=1[/video]


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## PinkFloydEffect

Da56nielg said:


> oops sorry I didn't re



Regarding?


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Regarding the original renders I posted I have 2 more now lol*














*Now I have 2 new versions...we will never know what they day truly looked like!*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*So back on the new generation of Campers...the four I potted up last year have dropped to three I lost one somehow, the buds darkened and never opened and they roll off with your finger but these three should be solid from here on out:*










*I will continue to hoard Wych/Scots Elms as I can find them but I feel confident in grafting these three this summer. After examining and studying these trees in my town it appears a lot of them were created using a larger rootstock and splicing in mutant branches like so:*










*However I do not think this is the only way they were grafted, I think some mutant branches were grafted onto rootstock the same diameter using the following method:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*I am uncertain about the possibility of chip bud grafts, I kind of think that is how my large Camperdown in this thread got so tall but there is a clear graft line around the entire trunk at breast height. If not then why not experiment right? Maybe I can use a taller rootstock and graft mutant buds onto it to create a stronger, sturdy and straight trunk that is tall AND weeps traditionally I'm thinking long term here people (this posture would require less maintenance I think while preserving the characteristics and qualities)*


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## himiler

Been working out of town way too much and way too many hours! Good to get back even for a few weeks and "catch up" so to speak. 
Great to see you still at it, keep up the learning lab you're not the only one in class.
Steve


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## PinkFloydEffect

I can tell by the amount of traffic it has seen, so I setup a Facebook awareness page for this project I encourage everyone to like and share!

*www.Facebook.com/ElmProject*

*Click here to go to the Facebook page!!*


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## LegDeLimber

Watching the part 3 a moment ago and noticed at 5:32~ish that wound in the left side of frame
looks like an alien and sorta fits the screech in the tune. 

hope that your efforts work out and we don't just see an estate sale 
or something where the trees become a firewood cutting thread.
just guessing from the pics, but the area around that house
looks like it's in slow transition from residential 
and I can just imagine how quickly a developer will want to 
"get rid of the sickly looking, fall on someone, hazard trees"

thanks for posting and for giving us the good photos of things.


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## PinkFloydEffect

I did not catch that haha

Fortunately the property owners have been very good with me, this is why I believe the tree is historically notable and should receive some protection from the town (or state). This thread and the project might be enough to save it if that day ever comes.


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## yooper

like always, enjoy the added additions to yer thread. keep up the good work.


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## PinkFloydEffect

Thanks!

*I gave the pots a love tap and pulled on the trunk so the entire root ball and dirt remained in tact, they were only in about 3" of soil but not root bound no bottom circling however I added 3" more soil and replaced the trees...topped with new mulch:*






*A common problem whether potted or in the ground seems to be branch tips dieing; the buds turn black and roll off with your finger and eventually the branch tip shrivels up and falls off...is this early signs of dutch elm disease?*










*Here is a sneak peek of what I have going on; those three established Wych elms will be used to graft using three completely different methods, while I will have to wait a year to find if the grafted buds take or not all I can do is collect Wych elm for future grafting stock (remember I am starting a mini Camperdown farm/nursery I was allotted the land). The "Heywood Mansion" Camperdown location seems to be the only place I can find rooted Wych elms I assume they are seeded from the top of that massive 1878 tree, however a problem I am noticing when hunting down these seedlings is I believe they are cross-breeding with other "junk elms" because some small ones have all very native looking double pointed leafs when others taller with larger leafs have more rounded or pointy leafs with just a few native Wych looking leafs. Keeping this potential problem in mind I only dug the more dominate looking ones up and I have about a dozen here ready to be individually transplanted:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*That bucket made for over a dozen but some went into shock and their leaves crisp and fell off, but most are fine so far...these will root for a year before I attempt grafting:*






*I actually dug dark soil I hope it is not too acidic there were some pine trees around, I shook it through a screen and removed the dust dirt that turns into mud and kept the small pebbles of dirt maybe it contains clay it takes a lot of water for them to break down. I figured this would allow good drainage and oxygen to the roots so they are free to grow and it seems to hold its moisture well:*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Four went into shock and lost all their leaves, everything is looking great for stock this year!*






*All four have new green buds too so I lost nothing!*


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## NEKS Tree Svc

tomtrees58 said:


> hey yoopers is that a monkey in the windowopcorn:



photobomb by a pet gorilla? I wonder if he was home alone, throwing poo and nanners


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## PinkFloydEffect

I am now coming to an understanding that the reason the graft is done at breast height or as low to the ground as possible is because this prevents the root-stock from suckering and becoming dominant (more maintenance free). 

If this is the case...I have never seen it done and maybe it is a genetic mutation variable but why not air-layer a piece off the top of a Camperdown that way the root system is pure dominant Camperdownii right?! I think I may be onto something here


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Yes!!!*

Dear Nate,

in response to your email of June 20, 2013, although we customarily recognize American elms, the Camperdown elm you made us aware of is certainly worthy of recognition. We would therefore like to invite you to enroll this elm on the National Honor Roll of Historic Elms. Elm research Institute will designate this elm as a landmark specimen commemorating its past and hopefully helping to insure its future.

By accepting this designation, you are joining a crusade to help save a great specimen and a most beautiful shade tree. 

We hope you will consider mounting a Historic Elm plaque proudly on or near your tree. The plaque informs passers-by that this tree is an historic landmark to be preserved and protected for future generations.

In some areas where plaques have been presented, an impressive ceremony has developed with some newspaper coverage. 

Because there are so few trees of this stature, we must take extra measures to preserve them. If we can be of further assistance please don't hesitate to contact us a 1-800-367-3567 or 603-358-6198.

Sincerely,
John P. Hansel
Founder
Elm Research Institute
11 Kit Street
Keene, NH 03431
(603)358-6198
The Liberty Tree Society


*********


*This is the only one I have ever seen in person and this tree was cut down in Yarmouth ME*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*Oddly the new trees in the smaller pots held onto their leaves much longer than the established trees in the larger pots....grafts to come in the spring!!*


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## PinkFloydEffect

*





Back on it! To recap I used Bonide 2 years ago with good results, skipped last year and this year I am going to try this Garant 2F (maximum recommended dosage; probably entire bottle) will most likely apply it next week. 




*


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## LegDeLimber

Good to see that you're still at it and the trees are still alive!


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## PinkFloydEffect

Thanks! 

*This is the formula I used; so I used 7 of 8oz with a trunk circumference of 9ft




*


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## Peter Bourne

Dear Sir,

The pictures you show are three splendid Ulmus glabra 'Camperdownii'. They originate from Camperdown Park, Dundee as a cultivar (not particularly these trees) and were distributed to nurseries world wide. There are many featured on Flickr.com. The original tree of which all Camperdown's have their origin is still in existence, growing in open woodland on the Camperdown Park estate which is now Dundee City Council property; the original tree is not huge in size, its a mere bush with a root graft. All other Camperdowns are stock grafted, usually onto Ulmus glabra, but occassionally other elms like Ulmue procera (English elm), Ulmus x hollandica 'Vegeta' (Huntington elm) and there have been some reports of possible stocks of Ulmus americana (American elm). The tree barely ever grows taller than 10m; the largest known trees to date reside in New Zealand. In Gothenburg, Sweden there was a cemetery with a field of the species (probably as many as 50 trees); these may still survive to this day (pictures are on Flickr.com look for Kviberg.) It is still readily available for sale as due to its size, it often avoids attack by the Dutch elm disease carrying beetle, Scolytae species. However as for its resistance other than this, the tree is quite easily succumbed to the disease and its virtually impossible to save a small tree once infected.


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## jomoco

We're dealing with a fungus right?

Has anyone tried artificial lighting to mitigate the fungi's reproductive cycle?

You know electric UV light during the night time?

I tried mitigating a Ganoderma lucidum infection inside a hollow coastal live oak( Quercus agrifolia ) with the observable effect of the fruit bodies dying and drying up.

It was an ancient tree with structural splitting too far advanced to warrant cabling considering the extent of the Ganoderma infection.

There are spectrums of light that really mess with a fungi's ability to reproduce n grow larger IME.

jomoco


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## Jed1124

jomoco said:


> We're dealing with a fungus right?
> 
> Has anyone tried artificial lighting to mitigate the fungi's reproductive cycle?
> 
> You know electric UV light during the night time?
> 
> I tried mitigating a Ganoderma lucidum infection inside a hollow coastal live oak( Quercus agrifolia ) with the observable effect of the fruit bodies dying and drying up.
> 
> It was an ancient tree with structural splitting too far advanced to warrant cabling considering the extent of the Ganoderma infection.
> 
> There are spectrums of light that really mess with a fungi's ability to reproduce n grow larger IME.
> 
> jomoco


The fungus infects the vascular system. Transmitted by the elm bark beetle. Going to be kinda tuff to get the light into the xylem. Alamo works great.


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## jomoco

Has the systemic actually saved infected trees that are now 5 years older and still living?

jomoco


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## Jed1124

jomoco said:


> Has the systemic actually saved infected trees that are now 5 years older and still living?
> 
> jomoco


Some success but very little. Prevention is the key.


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## Jed1124

I've heard of infecting trees purposefully with verticillium with some success being that the elm can fight off a verticillium infection naturally. That is for trees that are already suffering from ded. The disease kills so quickly it is difficult to systemically treat after in infection as the vascular system is so compromised.


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## PinkFloydEffect

Thanks for chiming in, I mostly knew all of what you had to say I have studied these trees extensively. I have even seen it grafted to its own native Wych Elm root stock here!

The issue I am treating is leaf miner and trunk borers which have been so drastically reduced we were concerned about foliage weight. The systemic application really does work! The only problem left is a cosmetic problem on the leaves there are mites.

This tree may potentially be living with DED but it is located in a wet sub-valley that gives it water supply year round, I have found a very large natural American Elm living in the woods off a railroad near me and sure enough a trickle stream runs right past its root flare!

My grafts have not done well I will need to try again next year, the root stock is a bit stressed out.


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## Jed1124

Any chance the mite outbreak is due to imidicloprid use for the borers and leaf miners?


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## PinkFloydEffect

No, because they were present before the application(s)


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## Jed1124

Beautiful trees. I care for one locally and always find myself standing there just to admire it.


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## jomoco

I've kicked butt on a few species of beetles. Specifically the Ips beetle from a heavily infested Jelecote pine, and western flathead borers infesting the trunks of Cal sycamores(Platanus racemosa).

Carbaryl' the active ingredient in Sevin powder, which I mix with water to a thick pancake batter like consistency, which I then apply to oneside of long six inch wide burlap strips about 15 feet long.

Then I wrap all the trunk wood and major branch scaffolding with the pancake side against the bark.

Kills Em comin n Goin quite effectively when sprayed with the hose every few weeks.

Drawbacks? The legality of usin Sevin powder for an off label use? The fact that carbaryl is toxic to fish and should not be used when the runoff reaches streams n lakes.

My current backyard experiment is using the same trunk wrapping method on an old orange tree infested with citrus borers. But I'm usin ground cigar butts in place of the sevin powder. Nicotine messes with insects too, not nearly the same punching power of carbaryl, but the ground cigars have killed the borers, in twice the time it took the sevin.










jomoco


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## PinkFloydEffect

Cuttings are now available for sale on eBay from me! Simply search for Camperdown Elm Cuttings and you will find the only listing


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## PinkFloydEffect

I managed to uproot a small Wych elm before I fled Massachusetts last year haha, it was in the autumn and do to the stress it dropped its leaves early after potting it. I have tried several times to transplant a Wych elm over the last decade with no success but I think I am close this time! I have been babying this tree for the last 8 months, it stays inside with me in climate control and I make sure it never dries out for longer than 1 day. The top was cut last year as soon as I uprooted it which may not have been a good idea but I never learn...I will wait a few years before I re-cut and attempt a graft. It really does not get much light indoors where I have it, but for the last 6 months on average of 4 days a week I put it outside for the day in the direct Florida sunlight after watering it. I can tell it is 100% alive all the way to the top bud, they do not roll off the stem, the cut on the top is not dried out and I can see the bark just starting to roll over. The trunk itself is expanding, I can see it is GREEN in the vertical crack lines...but the buds will not open and I am getting impatient! What can I do to accelerate the success? More sun? Nutrients? Humidity? I need some seasoned advice please


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