# Insurance



## CwbyClmr (Nov 28, 2006)

I have a new company this year and employ one or two part time helpers at an time. My insurance covers up to 5K for injury for one full time employee. I have a safety manual that every employee signs stating that he has been trained in the use of the equipment and that he is ultimately responsible for his own safety. That policy also covers 1 mil in liability for the customers property and my equipment. 
Is this enough for a small company?


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## woodchux (Nov 28, 2006)

5k medical is a joke....
But better than nothing [not much]


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## jonseredbred (Nov 28, 2006)

I hope thats in addition to comp and disability benefits.


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## CwbyClmr (Nov 28, 2006)

I haven't checked on prices on workmans comp yet because we are so small, and I don't offer any benefits because I don't have a full time employee as of yet.
Does the "liability waiver" signed with the safety manual carry any weight in court?


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## Farmer Ferd (Nov 28, 2006)

What do you mean by enough? I am a small company. I pay 1,300. a year for 1 mil liability with another 1 mil umbrella. I also pay 1.400 per year for workman's comp which covers myself and any employees I may have. This will increase or decrease ( ha ha) if I get bigger or smaller. Workman's comp for your own piece of mind should be enough for you. What are you worth. I am a small company just myself my wife and a couple part time guys. I have been doing this professionally for 4 1/2 years now. I have never had a lost time accident. lots of little bumps and bruises but that goes with the territory. In this business you cant be too careful. shop around get the best price you can, then bite the bullet. Good luck. safety first.


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## beaverb01 (Nov 29, 2006)

I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.


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## ATH (Nov 29, 2006)

beaverb01 said:


> I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.


I assume since you have used an attorney to set this up, it is taken care of...so maybe this is more for the benefit of others who want to take that idea and run with it:
MAKE SURE they are really subcontractors. Simply calling somebody a subcontractor doesn't make it so.

For example: if you are the only person they ever "subcontract" for, and they use your equipment, and you dictate the hours they are working, they are an employee.

All parties (except the gvt) like the idea of subcontracting until there is an injury. Then the subcontractor decides that he was really an employee on whom you should have been paying workers comp (making you responsible for his medical bills), then the tax man finds out that you have had employees who you were not witholding taxes for. Now all goes down hill. Quickly.

FYI: I have not been down that road...it's called learning from others' mistakes.


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## jbw (Nov 29, 2006)

*be careful*

i have a friend with a small tree business who designated his employees as "subs". he was audited and his subs could not show that they were individually insured. he was hit with a hefty workman's comp bill as well as a tax present.


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## Climb020 (Nov 29, 2006)

There was a link somewhere on this site as to what the governement concidered to be employees and subs. The main difference that I remember was if your workers do a job according to the way you set forth then they are an employee. Subs. can be told what the end result should be but they have the liberty of doing it anyway that they see fit.


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## woodchux (Nov 29, 2006)

beaverb01 said:


> I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.




Everyone here with subs should read your policy! I noticed way in the back of mine that all Subs must be insured with at least the same limits that i carry. Also says the work area must be taped off. And they don't cover damage to, or resulting from power lines. Gotta get that part changed soon.

If you gotta have subs, alot of guys use manpower or workforce temps. They come with WC. You can hire your own helpers through a temp agency. Send them down there, sign em up, then they're covered.


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## jonseredbred (Nov 29, 2006)

beaverb01 said:


> I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.



keep dreaming, unless they have a DBA, insurance, workers comp on themselves, thier own equipment (more than saddle and rope) and written subcontract agreements for every individual job, they are not subcontractors.

it is your responsibility to make sure they have insurance. your not 100% insulated as a corp. If you are fraudulantly using so called subs, its breaking the law and no corp protects you from breaking the law.


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## beaverb01 (Nov 29, 2006)

Always thought this sounded too good to be true. Glad this came up. I called several insurance cos. today requesting quotes, I'll post their response on this subject asap. Thanks for the responses.

Beaver


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## DDM (Nov 29, 2006)

Are you in the tree business and only pay that for insurance?


Farmer Ferd said:


> What do you mean by enough? I am a small company. I pay 1,300. a year for 1 mil liability with another 1 mil umbrella. I also pay 1.400 per year for workman's comp which covers myself and any employees I may have. This will increase or decrease ( ha ha) if I get bigger or smaller. Workman's comp for your own piece of mind should be enough for you. What are you worth. I am a small company just myself my wife and a couple part time guys. I have been doing this professionally for 4 1/2 years now. I have never had a lost time accident. lots of little bumps and bruises but that goes with the territory. In this business you cant be too careful. shop around get the best price you can, then bite the bullet. Good luck. safety first.


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 29, 2006)

Our WC is 50%. Our ground guys are cheaper. You guys gave great answers so much I think a couple guys are thinking. Good job!
Jeff Lovstrom


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## CwbyClmr (Dec 1, 2006)

*Sub Contractors*

I do recall as well that my insurance policy states that a "sub contractor" has to give me a copy of his insurance in order for my policy not to cover him. I guess that I have to do some research on WC policies and get one pronto!!!!
We just got hit with a serious ice storm, not as bad as New York but its bad and I'm going to work for an emergency service company as a sub and will have to produce a copy of my insurance for them. Luckily I will be the only one working for them otherwise I would have to carry WC on my employees.
Thanks again guys for keeping us new guys aware and covered on the legal side of the business!!!!!!!!!!


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## maxburton (Dec 8, 2006)

You are required by law to have WC insurance. Your 5k of coverage on your liability does not cover you or your employees. It is for injuries to others as a result of non-negligent actions (negligence is covered by your general amount). Get WC right away! If you don't, and someone gets hurt, it's all over for you. Even if you 1099 them and call them subs now, you would have to prove it in court, and you probably wouldn't be able to, especially if you didn't have copies of their liability certs (which they probably don't have).


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## B-Edwards (Dec 8, 2006)

Your required by law to have W/C when you have a certain number of employees, or at-least here thats the way it is. I know here I'm not required to have it with only 2 employees. I would carry it if I only had 1 employee. Don't be fooled by the agreement you had your (SUBS) sign. The way the law is now if a guy works for you ,you are responsible if he farts wrong. Be careful ,do it right.


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## beaverb01 (Dec 11, 2006)

*WC in VA*



B-Edwards said:


> Your required by law to have W/C when you have a certain number of employees, or at-least here thats the way it is. I know here I'm not required to have it with only 2 employees. I would carry it if I only had 1 employee. Don't be fooled by the agreement you had your (SUBS) sign. The way the law is now if a guy works for you ,you are responsible if he farts wrong. Be careful ,do it right.



What I have found out is similar for Va. The law states that you do not need WC until you have more than 2 employees. However, the way everyone is about litigation these days, I'm looking into the options for coverage. Thanks to everyone who threw in their comments on this thread.


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## M.D. Vaden (Dec 12, 2006)

beaverb01 said:


> I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.



That would be hard to do in Oregon - though possible.

If I tried that, my own insurance company, will want me to verify that I got insurance certificates from those subcontractors. They have a survey audit every year that takes about 20 minutes. And that's one thing they ask.

As a landscape contractor under the landscape board, or if I was a tree service under the construction board, my subcontractors would probably need to have their state license. It might be on their shoulders, but I'd be hung out to dry if something happened and they didn't have insurance. It would come back to haunt me and my insurance - maybe even my license.

At least in Oregon - I think whose tools they use has something do with it.


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## beaverb01 (Dec 12, 2006)

M.D. Vaden said:


> That would be hard to do in Oregon - though possible.
> 
> If I tried that, my own insurance company, will want me to verify that I got insurance certificates from those subcontractors. They have a survey audit every year that takes about 20 minutes. And that's one thing they ask.
> 
> ...



Those tools are the reason I could not get a temp agency to send me any workers. They said their workers could drag brush and operate a rake, but could not run a saw or feed the chipper. Not much use to me when I'm up in the tree "gettin it done"

Beaver


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## toscottm (Jan 8, 2007)

CwbyClmr said:


> I have a new company this year and employ one or two part time helpers at an time. My insurance covers up to 5K for injury for one full time employee. I have a safety manual that every employee signs stating that he has been trained in the use of the equipment and that he is ultimately responsible for his own safety. That policy also covers 1 mil in liability for the customers property and my equipment.
> Is this enough for a small company?



CwbyClmr;

There is no such thing as 'enough' insurance for a small company. Big company or small company, what is going to be the difference? The 'sorry we killed someone but we are just a small company' defence is not a legal effort likely to be very successful. Of course, that would be for a judge and jury to decide.

My suggestion is that you do a 'risk assessment'. An insurance broker experienced in issues related to arborists can help you. In the U.S., contact ArborMax or TreePro. In Canada, TREESURE (see: www.treesure.ca). These risk experts will review your operations (you do not say what type of work you do - felling & removal, consulting, line clearing, etc.) and they can make suggestions on liability coverage including type and amount. Once their suggestions are made, as a business owner you can then make your decisions (based on affordability, etc.).

Best Wishes!

Scott


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## Tedmc (Feb 20, 2007)

*Safe and Secure*



toscottm said:


> CwbyClmr;
> 
> There is no such thing as 'enough' insurance for a small company. Big company or small company, what is going to be the difference? The 'sorry we killed someone but we are just a small company' defence is not a legal effort likely to be very successful. Of course, that would be for a judge and jury to decide.
> 
> ...



The above advice sounds good to me. I am doing footwork to start my own small tree company. I will meet with a lawyer to incorporate my business and get direction on what coverage is best for my needs. I will continue to get information and help in this forum. I will definitely contact the above suggested insurance brokers for there input. Thanks for the sound advice. My goals are simple:quality service, customer satisfaction, and most importantly, a safe and secure work environment. Thanks!


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## ropensaddle (Feb 20, 2007)

*wc*

What gets to me is this coverage does'nt even resemble
anything fair. You will feel as if you been violated just hearing
a quote ! I have never had lost time accident in over twenty
years but was told 31 percent was my cost . I then asked what
his was, 23 cents per hundred !!! I could understand we have 
dangerous occupation but 31 percent is highway robbery.
Also I have friends that say they would rather waive their
rights to get more money and would buy their own saws gear
pay their own taxes ! It is a shame an adult cannot have a choice 
in this matter because it forces me to use temps who i'm not
sure will hold a rope, or let go which can ruin a rep and make 
a million in liability go threw the roof!!!! The biggest problem
is; customers will hardly pay what I have to make at present!
I already pay over four grand ins. to cover two commercial
vehicles and find it difficult to produce enough income to pay
expense now! I have seriously considered quitting because
people here don't care about professional work they are only
interested in cost and with 22 tree services listed in a town
the size of mine my phone rings slow . Even if it rang ten times
daily it would not matter a whole lot; when you bid two pine
removals, stumps ground all debris removed 1000., and you
are the highest; well you get the point! The pines where 
32 in. diam. 36 on the other one, and were not easy even though
I have bucket! I don't know if I can survive this season
with all the cutthroats here, thought of moving to where some
of you work. I have never been paid what some of you are
getting for services rendered and could afford more overhead
with an income that would support it


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## Ed Roland (Mar 16, 2007)

Ropensaddle, Moving to another area sounds like your best option. (as long as its not mine, lol) I've been lucky that I compete in a small 'niche' by performing more high end pruning, hazard tree assessments and pest/pathology consults than big nasty removals. I take those jobs but my insurance becomes rather obsolete after I haul my butt over 35'. As for my employees, they are part-time brush draggers and they never run a saw, my chipper, or my dump. Yeah, im tired @ the end of the day but everyones injury free.


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## Mtnman4ever (Mar 26, 2007)

CwbyClmr said:


> I have a new company this year and employ one or two part time helpers at an time. My insurance covers up to 5K for injury for one full time employee. I have a safety manual that every employee signs stating that he has been trained in the use of the equipment and that he is ultimately responsible for his own safety. That policy also covers 1 mil in liability for the customers property and my equipment.
> Is this enough for a small company?



Who t0ld yo uthat? 
as long as they are on your doine you are resposible for thier safty .I ve heard of scams like this a lawyer gives bad advice draws s up some fancy sounding paper and then takes your cash now sokmething bad happensat a job you are left holding the bag and every one is xcoming for you your about to make your employess very wealthy , espcailly if they filed 1099sas mort do out of fear . 
prepare to lose everythinmg as a good liablitly workmans comp workplace injury lawyer will eat you alive . you will be ;living in damn tent get the right insuranceA SAP stop any work untill you have it those papers are not worth tiolet paper . 

they are meaning less lots get taken in by this scam it sounds good you akke mor money no paying workans comp loks good i on your insureance untill some one gets smart . or the hoaspital bills you and they will as now many states require any workplace injury be billed to ot workplace period . hence no subcontracots I knowa lanscap[er trotting in hassiburg pa for a good 20- 30 and then when he gets out NH and main get him he will die in prison for screwong hus employees and the rest of us taxpyers . 
i hiured did it right gave benies even toi our part timne oficie gal wgho hada itchy finger fro the chainsaw she did both . and was full timeuntill my injury i got them jobs but all want ot com,eback iwonder why ?


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## Mtnman4ever (Mar 26, 2007)

beaverb01 said:


> I carry 2mil liability and the guys I use on jobs are labeled as "subcontractors." My attorney tells me this makes it their responsibility to provide their own insurance as they are not labeled "employees." I'm incorporated and that insulates personal assets against litigation.



Get a new lawyer ASAP or your going to lose everthing all it takes is one guy getting hurt even a minro injury every one from the feds to the employees is gona want a huge hunck of your hide and a jury is gona give it that is one thing that pisses off juries . Basically screwing your employees . Sorry if it is harsbut you hurt us all of us when you pull that scam and I have no sympathy if aperson who pulls it does alongtinme in federal prison 
they are on your dime they are your repsonisblity . you choose not to have it that way . it does not work that way if thery are on your time and dime you are resposibliitry 

If i was you , I would shutdown get soem good tax aSSA WC and thn soem alwyerys sell your jobs out . soem one will buy thm and get yopur kl legal matters fixed then rember this all it takes isa pissed of employees and they are you let go to run to the SSA yourare in silcver braceletes and remandeded w/ o bail
my gues is if you come clean noiw your gonna do ok wait tillafter tax timne and your playing with firer, they meaning the IRS andSSA are looking very carfully forevery penny as thery need it . 

good luck


i justhopwe no one whith a grudge agaisnt that type of employent practice is reading


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## arborrich (Mar 26, 2007)

what the hell did you just say.. not to be rude but can anyone decifer this code.



Mtnman4ever said:


> Get a new lawyer ASAP or your going to lose everthing all it takes is one guy getting hurt even a minro injury every one from the feds to the employees is gona want a huge hunck of your hide and a jury is gona give it that is one thing that pisses off juries . Basically screwing your employees . Sorry if it is harsbut you hurt us all of us when you pull that scam and I have no sympathy if aperson who pulls it does alongtinme in federal prison
> they are on your dime they are your repsonisblity . you choose not to have it that way . it does not work that way if thery are on your time and dime you are resposibliitry
> 
> If i was you , I would shutdown get soem good tax aSSA WC and thn soem alwyerys sell your jobs out . soem one will buy thm and get yopur kl legal matters fixed then rember this all it takes isa pissed of employees and they are you let go to run to the SSA yourare in silcver braceletes and remandeded w/ o bail
> ...


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## Mtnman4ever (Mar 26, 2007)

arborrich said:


> what the hell did you just say.. not to be rude but can anyone decifer this code.



Hell I amr eally sick ofit I got injured and it is noneof your da,n bussiness. 
I am sure most can get the gist of what I am saying . But But those spelling freaks out there geta grip one it is typing i run a chainsaw to make money . I cannot make my voice recgognition system work as in I am not a computer type . But after reading my post isis understadanble deal with it . and If you really did not wqant otbe rude you would have sent as PM .

it amzes me howmany guys type so well and do not have nervedamage to thier hands or your a youngster or such maybe you just did nit likkew whati said so ya tossed out a insult . 
thanks 

But making fun of some one reallyserves no purpose except waste server space


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## arborrich (Mar 26, 2007)

not making fun at all... just had a hard time understanding what you said.


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## osb_mail (Mar 26, 2007)

Hey my brother set up my computer where it would spell check my post I am bad about spelling too but the spell check is a life saver .


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