# Questions on Mini's.



## sticknstring (Sep 22, 2011)

So I'm in the market for a used mini. I have demo'd a Dingo 420 tracked machine, and am getting ready to look at a Ramrod 900T. I've read lots of the threads on mini's previously, lots of good info in those threads. Looking for some info on the pros and cons of these two particular machines. The dingo is tracked while the Ramrod is wheeled. Both are gas. I wasn't particularly impressed with the Dingo's lift height. Not sure what the height of the Ramrod is yet. Info on them is a little harder to find. The Dingo has around 600 hours on it, the Ramrod is supposed to have about the same, but it is a guess by the owner as it has no hour meter. I haven't seen it in person yet to see if the hours seem to fit the condition.

Anyone have any first hand info on how these two compare? Problems to look for on either machine? If I was buying new I'd probably go with a tracked machine, but not sure if wheels should rule out a good deal on a used one. Anyone have any experience with the tracks that go over the wheels? The machine will be used primarily for the typical stuff, forwarding brush to the chipper and loading wood on a trailer. Might possibly do some light landscaping. I assume the tracks would be much better at digging.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 22, 2011)

I have no real insight I guess because I don't own one, I do however have some thoughts.

I drove one and passed on the deal because I thought it was too slow, lacked lift height and capacity. It was a Bobcat MT55 and boy did it ride rough and wasn't too turf friendly either. After driving it I had a lot more respect for the wheel mini's because they must be smoother and not be so prone to rocking back and forth as a track machine will.

Like I said, I don't have one but run a skidsteer and compact tractor for all my work. Usually, I can back the chipper to most of my brush piles and the yards don't usually have small gates and such for access.

I guess if you are always in super tight access areas you would need one, if not, I think there are better options.


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## treeman75 (Sep 22, 2011)

I bought a s600tx last spring it has the highest and most lifting compacity. Bobcat is close but vermeer lifts a little higher. When I have more time I can tell you more or you can pm my. I spent three months last winter researching them, it has to be the best money I spent on something. I love my mini!View attachment 200213


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## treeman75 (Sep 22, 2011)

When you first get on one they are a little jumpy just like any loader but once you get the hang of it you can run it real smooth.


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## squad143 (Sep 22, 2011)

Sorry, but I can't speak of the dingo or ramrod as I've never driven those machines.

I own a Thomas 25g. It is a wheel model and I have a bucket and BMG for it. 

The wheel models are better on turf (less damage) than track machines when you are turning.

One thing to remember, is that these are mini skid steers. Don't expect them to lift a ton into the back of a large dump truck. They don't have the capacity or the height. They are not the best at digging into hard soil as they don't have alot of downward pressure. My Thomas is not a rocket, however my buddies Kanga is pretty fast (sometimes it is good to be fast, sometimes not).

They are great at dragging brush, moving trailers, chippers, towable lifts, etc., lifting chunks and small logs, getting through small gates. Hope you get the idea. 

It all depends on what you want to do with it. I'm happy with mine. My goundsman are even more please when we can use it on the job.

Best of luck.


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## arbor pro (Sep 24, 2011)

You've probably read my opinions on minis since I tend to chime in on just about every conversation about them...  that said, I'll give my 2 cents. dingo 420 IMO is not as smooth as a bobcat mt52 or ditchwitch sk500. Of the smaller gas powered minis, I highly recommend the sk500 tracked machine - great lifting height and easy to control. Of the bigger diesels, the sk650 cannot be beaten. Not the tx600 nor 800, not the boxer 532dx, not the mt55. Ditchwitch is really a great machine all around. As for wheels vs tracks - tracks can dig up lawns more than grass but try driving a wheeled machine over mud or other soft grounds with a load or try driving over a log or curb without getting hung up. Tracks rock for those situations.

The dingo 420 IMO is better suited for running attachment - not so great for moving material. my .02.....

Also, regarding speed = bobcat reverse speed sucks. slowest out there. DW and boxer are 4mph both reverse and forward. very snappy. one more reason I like DW as all=around best mini out there.

AP


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## sticknstring (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. I ended up buying the Ramrod. I couldn't pass it up for the deal I got. I think it's going to be great for what I need it to do. Only came with a smooth bucket, so now I'll be figuring out the right grapple for me. Probably grab a set of forks to load logs right now, and then start shopping for a grapple. 

It has a learning curve on operating it. I about threw myself off the back a couple times before getting the hang of the controls. THey are very sensitive. The first ten minutes was pretty bouncy and jerky, especially with no load on the front. Didn't take too long to get the hang of driving it smoothly.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

View attachment 200516


Here's my 2 cents. Why pay rediculous coin for a mini, when you can get into a bobcat 4 series for a quarter of the money? I just pulled the trigger on a super nice 453 with 1400 hrs, and with the grapple, I'm into it for 3600 bucks... Albeit, I got a smokin deal, but I've seen others in really good shape for around 6-7K. I just could NEVER justify the money spent on a mini, when there are options such as the one I just spoke of available. 

And let me save you the trouble of arguing the point that you can do more with a mini... EVEN IF, that's true, the difference is certainly negligible, nd would NEVER make up for the huge difference in cost.


EDIT: I could justify spending the money on a mini, when I have too much money just sitting around in the bank and have bought every other conceivable tree related item for my business.


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## mattfr12 (Sep 25, 2011)

minis are good but thier really exspensive for what they are 20+ thousand for one of those things?
i think i paid 37k for my skidsteer new. with a climate controlled cab and can lift 3000 over 10-12 feet. the problem i see with them is how high they lift enless your loading a trailer i dont have a truck that they will load.

i use a john deere 2305 very small tractor but will still lift around 1000 pounds 8 feet. probably isnt much wider than a mini and also cheaper. brand new i think it was 17k with the front loader and a belly mower for my yard. has turf tires and 4 wheel drive.

whats the lifting compacity one one of those things? 5-6 hundred? even a 20 inch large oak round would probably flip it. because my tractor gets put to its max. seems like you would still have to do alot of cutting.

we also use the bobcat to bring trees closer to the chipper we can drop a large maple and drag it for 100's of yards in a few sectioins right to the chipper.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

mattfr12 said:


> minis are good but thier really exspensive for what they are 20+ thousand for one of those things?
> i think i paid 37k for my skidsteer new. with a climate controlled cab and can lift 3000 over 10-12 feet. the problem i see with them is how high they lift enless your loading a trailer i dont have a truck that they will load.
> 
> i use a john deere 2305 very small tractor but will still lift around 1000 pounds 8 feet. probably isnt much wider than a mini and also cheaper. brand new i think it was 17k with the front loader and a belly mower for my yard. has turf tires and 4 wheel drive.
> ...


 
EXACTLY....... They are cute machines, but as far as I'm concerned, for tree work, they are an over priced novelty.


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## Kottonwood (Sep 25, 2011)

Damn... that is a sweet deal for that bobcat... I would definitely not pass that up.

It all depends on the type of work you do. I do mostly residential city stuff. My options are generally the log cart/ wheelbarrow or the mini. I will choose the mini every time. It can't lift a ton but it can lift a hell of a lot more than two dudes can, and it can do it all day long without complaining. It is decent to turf and fits through gates, can't complain about that, though sometimes I really wish I had the lift capacity and height of a bigger machine.

If you have a branch manager type grapple and a big chipper a mini is an extremely efficient brush dragger.... better than any two groundmen I know.

If you don't have to deal with a lot of fences, small yards, walkways, etc then a bigger machine is definitely the way to go.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> Damn... that is a sweet deal for that bobcat... I would definitely not pass that up.
> 
> It all depends on the type of work you do. I do mostly residential city stuff. My options are generally the log cart/ wheelbarrow or the mini. I will choose the mini every time. It can't lift a ton but it can lift a hell of a lot more than two dudes can, and it can do it all day long without complaining. It is decent to turf and fits through gates, can't complain about that, though sometimes I really wish I had the lift capacity and height of a bigger machine.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, it was... I sold the backhoe it came with and made a few hundred, so that factors into the price I paid.... I agree with what you've said above, but I can get *PRETTY MUCH* anywhere the mini can with my machine too. 36 inches wide when I take the dual tire set up up front down to one...


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## Kottonwood (Sep 25, 2011)

I wonder what the actual lift capacity of that machine versus most minis is. Is that just a 15 horse motor? For the price you can't go wrong but I think most minis pack a little more punch. Your lift height is probably better though.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> I wonder what the actual lift capacity of that machine versus most minis is. Is that just a 15 horse motor? For the price you can't go wrong but I think most minis pack a little more punch. Your lift height is probably better though.


 
Lift on the 453 is 700lbs, and 92 inches of lift height, (pretty sure that's stronger and higher than most minis don't quote me on that though) and I've actually lifted more, VERY CAREFULLY. It does have the 15 horse, and moves around a job site faster than necessary at full RPM. The only disadvantage so far would be getting in and out, where on a mini you just step off.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that in the winter and rain, with an enclosed cab and heater, it makes outdoor work a tad more enjoyable. Plus the machine can double as a snow and ice management machine. Try that out with a mini in a snow storm and get back to me ;-)


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## Kottonwood (Sep 25, 2011)

the mini I run has a 24 horse motor, so it is probably a bit better for running attachments. I think you have 10 inches or so on me for lift height and the working capacity is of the sk500 is only 500lbs lift. I really prefer a side by side comparison though with the lift capacity, you never can tell with the manufaturers number. Because of the balance of your machine you may get a bit more, though I have a big step on mine and have been known to have a few guys standing on it to get that last stump piece into the trailer at the end of the day.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> the mini I run has a 24 horse motor, so it is probably a bit better for running attachments. I think you have 10 inches or so on me for lift height and the working capacity is of the sk500 is only 500lbs lift. I really prefer a side by side comparison though with the lift capacity, you never can tell with the manufaturers number. Because of the balance of your machine you may get a bit more, though I have a big step on mine and have been known to have a few guys standing on it to get that last stump piece into the trailer at the end of the day.


 
The 453 is not hi-flow and the 15.7 horses run the grapple PDQ. As for something like a stumping attachment, I don't know. I do know however, it will be a rare occasion when the grapple bucket comes off, so running anything other than a set of forks, or a smooth bucket is of no concern for me. If I laid sprinklers or was doing fences, I would be, but I don't.

And I haven't even touched on the fact that in the winter and rain, with an enclosed cab and heater, it makes outdoor work a tad more enjoyable. Plus the machine can double as a snow and ice management machine. Try that out with a mini in a snow storm and get back to me ;-)

Don't take my seemingly negative attitude towards minis the wrong way. I have no outside financing, and believe that every piece of equipment I invest in should be able to maximize profits. I just don't feel that a mini in regards to tree work does that. The positive cost/benefit ratio is not there.......


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## sticknstring (Sep 25, 2011)

I understand the differing opinions on what equipment works best for everyone. I would not have considered buying a new mini and paying the prices they go for. I could never justify that. I think I got a great deal on the Ramrod based on what I see other used mini's go for. I gave $3,400 for it. It is rated to lift 900 lbs. Haven't had the opportunity to test that in the real world just yet. Even if it sits in my shop regularly I think it's going to be well worth the expense. I have a few jobs lined up right now that it will save me tons of time and back breaking labor on.

This is my first mini and only time will tell if it will be the perfect fit for me. Even if I decide it doesn't do what I want, I should be able to turn it around and make money on the resale.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 25, 2011)

sticknstring said:


> I understand the differing opinions on what equipment works best for everyone. I would not have considered buying a new mini and paying the prices they go for. I could never justify that. I think I got a great deal on the Ramrod based on what I see other used mini's go for. I gave $3,400 for it. It is rated to lift 900 lbs. Haven't had the opportunity to test that in the real world just yet. Even if it sits in my shop regularly I think it's going to be well worth the expense. I have a few jobs lined up right now that it will save me tons of time and back breaking labor on.
> 
> This is my first mini and only time will tell if it will be the perfect fit for me. Even if I decide it doesn't do what I want, I should be able to turn it around and make money on the resale.


 
If it runs and cost you only 3400, then I have no argument LOL. Good job.


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## Kottonwood (Sep 25, 2011)

Congrats on your purchase. That is a damn good price. I have heard that the ramrod is the heaviest lifter of all the minis. You are gonna love it, it saves so much back ache and time. Can't go wrong with that investment, it will pay for itself in months. The way I look at is it basically replaces one to two groundmen or roughly 2-500 bucks a day that you use it. Minus fuel, maintenance and whatnot. They pay themselves off quick, especially when you get a screaming deal like that.


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## husabud (Sep 25, 2011)

sticknstring said:


> Even if I decide it doesn't do what I want, I should be able to turn it around and make money on the resale.



I'll give you $3500 for it.:msp_sneaky:


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## cedar (Sep 26, 2011)

I have a Boxer 427 w/tracks. I bought it new about 2.5 years ago. I know it has made me money and as important it has saved my back. What has really made the machine even more useful and valuable is the 30 hp stump grinder attachment I bought last year. I bring the Boxer, BMG, and stump grinder to the job and it is very efficient setup. Recently I bought a used Swinger loader and root grapple. Now when there is the room I bring the larger machine but the mini still goes out each week.


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## wheelloader123 (Sep 27, 2011)

Cedar, what type of Swinger did you buy?


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## arbor pro (Sep 27, 2011)

cedar said:


> I have a Boxer 427 w/tracks. I bought it new about 2.5 years ago. I know it has made me money and as important it has saved my back. What has really made the machine even more useful and valuable is the 30 hp stump grinder attachment I bought last year. I bring the Boxer, BMG, and stump grinder to the job and it is very efficient setup. Recently I bought a used Swinger loader and root grapple. Now when there is the room I bring the larger machine but the mini still goes out each week.


 
Is your 30hp stump grinder attachment the stump slayer? just wondering as I just bought a demo unit with 2 hours on it for $3500 and am pretty stoked to try it out on my sk650. That thing sells for $7500 new - which I could never justify - but, for $3500, I figured it's worth a shot.


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## arbor pro (Sep 27, 2011)

PatriotTreeCO said:


> ...If you have a branch manager type grapple and a big chipper a mini is an extremely efficient brush dragger.... better than any two groundmen I know..


 
IF anyone wants my used BM grapple, let me know. $1700 (no tax). Can ship for about $150. Great shape. Cheaper than a new one at $2200 plus tax...

scott 605-228-9350


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## ducaticorse (Sep 27, 2011)

arbor pro said:


> IF anyone wants my used BM grapple, let me know. $1700 (no tax). Can ship for about $150. Great shape. Cheaper than a new one at $2200 plus tax...
> 
> scott 605-228-9350


 
Can you run a bm on a 4 series BC?


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## treeman82 (Sep 27, 2011)

Please keep in mind that most of my work is in low / limitted access properties when I post this.

Used to know a guy who had a Thomas mini with grapple. Had him out a few times for jobs. 

First; a large sugar maple the machine wasn't big enough to do much good.... a larger machine would have been able to get in there without any trouble and been more effective.

Second; machine was unable to get into the site, would have sat in the driveway doing absolutely nothing.

Third; mix of small and large hardwoods, machine definately helped, but there was plenty of access for a larger machine which would have been more effective as we were able to get the truck right up to everything.

Thus, my opinion on these things... they are either too small or too big. If I can use a bigger machine, then why waste my time with this thing? If I can't use it at all, then it's a waste of money.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 27, 2011)

treeman82 said:


> Please keep in mind that most of my work is in low / limitted access properties when I post this.
> 
> Used to know a guy who had a Thomas mini with grapple. Had him out a few times for jobs.
> 
> ...


 
My thoughts exactly. The cost of these things new is not only prohibitive, IMHO they are priced nothing short of absurd. If they were even slightly reasonably priced, then I may feel SLIGHTLY different about them. If you can get one on the cheap like the thread starter did, then great. But for the guys who buy them new for tree work only, I think they are a completey unsound investment, and more of a novelty than anything else.

Obviously opinions are like a-holes LOL, and everybody has one, including me. But if you're going to buy a "mini" I fail to see why a small thomas, or 4 series bobcat isn't by far the better choice. For the "MOST" part they are stronger, and lift higher. And I think most importantly, they can be used comfortably in inclement weather, AND double as snow and ice management equipment in the winter. Try subbing out a "mini" doing snow work to a commercial account, and you'll get laughed at, let alone find some poor bastard to run the thing all night. My 453 goes out at 65 an hour with operator.


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## arbor pro (Sep 28, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> Can you run a bm on a 4 series BC?


 
yes - with a bobcat to toro adapter plate which I also have. The adapter plate should hook up to any bobcat mt 50/52/55, 463, 553, s70 or s100. Of couse, it could be put on about any skid steer if you just buy the blank plate for that machine or a universal plate and weld it on. I have a couple blanks for $125 ea plus shipping. the BM is listed for $1700 (costs $2200 new plus tax). The adapter plate (should you wish to hook up any other dingo/ditchwitch/vermeer, etc attachments to your bobcat) is $365.

I wouldn't suggest buying the adapter unless you knew you were going to run other dingo type attachments on your bobcat. The cheapest way to run it would be to buy a blank universal plate and then you could run it on either a full size (4' plate) or smaller machine with 3' plate like a 463 or mini skid.

pic attached... dingo 425tx is also for sale...


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## arbor pro (Sep 28, 2011)

For $2k even, I'll put the BM grapple and universal plate on your business doorstep in Boston. For $2250, the BM plus bobcat to toro adapter plate.


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## cedar (Sep 29, 2011)

wheelloader123 said:


> Cedar, what type of Swinger did you buy?


 
I bought a 2001 Swinger Model Ag. It has the 65 hp continental diesel. Also, the attachment is the 30 hp stumpslayer. One of my employees is an ace at using it and prefers it over other comparable stump grinders.


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## husabud (Sep 29, 2011)

arbor pro said:


> IF anyone wants my used BM grapple, let me know. $1700 (no tax). Can ship for about $150. Great shape. Cheaper than a new one at $2200 plus tax...
> 
> scott 605-228-9350


PM me with more details, Year hours etc. Thanks.


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## arbor pro (Sep 30, 2011)

cedar said:


> ...the attachment is the 30 hp stumpslayer. One of my employees is an ace at using it and prefers it over other comparable stump grinders.


 
have you switched from the rayco to another kind of tooth? what works best on it? I was thinking of changing over to greenteeth or yellowjackets once the raycos went dull.

glad to hear it's a good attachment. I'm looking forward to comparing it to my sc252 grinder.


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## cedar (Sep 30, 2011)

I think the Rayco superteeth work well but I don't have experience with the other teeth you mentioned. I am having a set retipped and am looking forward to see how that goes. One thing about the Stumpslayer is you want to keep an eye on the tension of the belt. You might even carry an extra with you. The one I use is the Gates Predator belt 3VP850.


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## Juicemang (Sep 30, 2011)

Love my dingo 525. Paid $20,000 and well worth it. Must have a good operator. Must have branch manager and pallet forks. Must have dump trailer not dump truck. Put 48" sides on trailer, load from rear. No need to go over the sides when loading, promotes sloppy loading, end up with a 10k trailer holding 5k of rats nested wood. Grapple bucket is worthless attachment. Branchmanager is way better for brush and logs under 24" diameter. When into big wood switch to pallet forks because the load is way closer to the machine then with a grapple bucket. The forks also weigh a lot less then a grapple bucket. When using the forks Its ridiculous what it can move. Skid steers are generally over sized for residential tree work. Might be nice once or twice a month I guess...

Just think one ground guy at $100 a day is roughly $24000 a year not including comp. I paid the dingo off in a year and now have an asset.

I don't know how well a mini would fit into a big company. As an owner operator its priceless.

Also on a side note stump grinder attachments for any skid steer is just plain dumb. Buy a freakin stump grinder if your going to grind stumps...


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

Juicemang said:


> Love my dingo 525. Paid $20,000 and well worth it. Must have a good operator. Must have branch manager and pallet forks. Must have dump trailer not dump truck. Put 48" sides on trailer, load from rear. No need to go over the sides when loading, promotes sloppy loading, end up with a 10k trailer holding 5k of rats nested wood. Grapple bucket is worthless attachment. Branchmanager is way better for brush and logs under 24" diameter. When into big wood switch to pallet forks because the load is way closer to the machine then with a grapple bucket. The forks also weigh a lot less then a grapple bucket. When using the forks Its ridiculous what it can move. Skid steers are generally over sized for residential tree work. Might be nice once or twice a month I guess...
> 
> Just think one ground guy at $100 a day is roughly $24000 a year not including comp. I paid the dingo off in a year and now have an asset.
> 
> ...


 
That's not a bad way to look at it, but you didn't total the 10K worth of accesories that you need to make it viable ;-) Again, I'll state you can do all you just mentioned, and much more with a nice used a $5K bobcat 4 series, or a small Thomas. THEN put it to work doing snow removal in the winter and have it make you money year round. Paying $30K for a "mini" doesn't sound like such a good idea anymore, does it? 

Again, to each his own.......


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## capetrees (Sep 30, 2011)

I agree. I've been toying with the idea of a mini for years and the longer I think, the more I shy away from the idea. I haven't needed it anywhere that I didn't do just fine with manpower and if I needed something bigger, I borrowed my friends Bobcat. Turns out, now I'm looking at buying his Bobcat by the ned of the year for around $18K, Bobcat 250. Lots more work will come my way with a full sized skid than a mini. Think expansion.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

capetrees said:


> I agree. I've been toying with the idea of a mini for years and the longer I think, the more I shy away from the idea. I haven't needed it anywhere that I didn't do just fine with manpower and if I needed something bigger, I borrowed my friends Bobcat. Turns out, now I'm looking at buying his Bobcat by the ned of the year for around $18K, Bobcat 250. Lots more work will come my way with a full sized skid than a mini. Think expansion.


 

There's really no arguing that the new cost vs benefit of a mini is pretty terrible when compared to the other options readily available. 

Now of course, I don't need the blown camaro or the sport bike that is capable of 189 either, so I understand what it means to have an unnecessary toy or two, but lets see it for what it is guys, and not make it into something that it's not, and what it's not, is the best bang for your buck....


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## treeman75 (Sep 30, 2011)

I have draged brush for twenty years, not any more! I bought mine last winter and havent draged brush since. If I cant get my chipper to the tree the mini comes out. Trees in back yards I can do swice as fast as before, and you dont get wore out. They are money makers!


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## cedar (Sep 30, 2011)

Looks like prices have gone up. My Boxer 427 w/tracks cost $13k brand new in 2008. My 30 hp stump grinding attachment was $5K and the BMG was $2k. So for $20K I got a machine that can load logs onto my dump trailer, move brush, and grind stumps. A self-propelled stump grinder with 30hp would probably cost around the same. The mini-skid also maneuvers much more efficiently than a self-propelled grinder when grinding a large stump or grinding multiple stumps.


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> I have draged brush for twenty years, not any more! I bought mine last winter and havent draged brush since. If I cant get my chipper to the tree the mini comes out. Trees in back yards I can do swice as fast as before, and you dont get wore out. They are money makers!


 
You have one of the expensive ones too. What is your "all in cost" with everything you use on any given day. Branch manager, dump trailer, anything else I may have missed?


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## sawinredneck (Sep 30, 2011)

I snagged a used Thomas 25G, bucket and a used BMG for a song, low enough I wont say. Lots of hours on the machine, but it's easy enough to work on.
If you load the trailer right you can pull all the brush off with one grab of the grapple and drag it off.
I can rent about anything I'd need for $150 a day or less, trencher, auger, tiller etc. I built a set of pallet forks for around $200. 
No, it wont do what a larger machine can, but what it does, it does well! I can see better, I can get off and on in a flash, I can get in and out of places even a 4 series Bobcat can't, horse stalls for instance!
I have moved a lot of snow, wind chill of -27 once, sure a heated cab would be nice, but I can get in closer than a full size machine can, I can do sidewalks without tearing up yards and it beats the hell out of a shovel!
Is it perfect? No! Is it pretty much perfect for tree work? Hell yes! Even with my broken back it turns me into a three man crew! Shag brush with one for a day, then go back to doing with out it, you will hate life!


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> I snagged a used Thomas 25G, bucket and a used BMG for a song, low enough I wont say. Lots of hours on the machine, but it's easy enough to work on.
> If you load the trailer right you can pull all the brush off with one grab of the grapple and drag it off.
> I can rent about anything I'd need for $150 a day or less, trencher, auger, tiller etc. I built a set of pallet forks for around $200.
> No, it wont do what a larger machine can, but what it does, it does well! I can see better, I can get off and on in a flash, I can get in and out of places even a 4 series Bobcat can't, horse stalls for instance!
> ...


 
I fully agree it makes work easier, no argument there. 

The bobcat 4 series has a 36 inch width, I think it can fit pretty much anywhere the minis do. 

The bobcat 4 series is a sidewalk plowing beast.

You've got balls for standing on that thing in -27 degree weather for any amount of time, so props to you on that one! I'll be in my heated cab doing the same thing in my 4 series, (except of course freezing my sack off)

Perfect for tree work is subjective at best. I do mostly take downs here in town, so it's easier to have a bit more power and height along with the same accessibility *NOTE* (there is at least 1 mini that I know of that has a higher weight lift capacity than the late model 453 700LBS) so I don't have to trailer around an extra dump trailer to load into. 

Again, to each his own. My thoughts on the subject are more of a business (cost analysis) nature. I do realize they can be usefull, they are however not the best way to spend your money given the options.


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## sawinredneck (Sep 30, 2011)

The Thomas is shorter and the better visibility lets it snake in and around gated areas better. Been there a time or two, the 763 fits through the gate fine, but can't snake it around the barbque grill and tree on the other side. 
I'm not badmouthing the 4 series, I was originality looking at that and the New Holland version, but at the time I could buy a full size (new) cheaper than the small machine? That didn't make much sense to me!
I used to work for a Bobcat dealer, White Star in Wichita Ks, I hated getting in and out of the 4 series machines! I'm a big boy, 6' 275, not bad once in, but that in and out killed me!
Bet you didn't know they used to make a 3 series? PITA to work on, even harder to get in and out of!
I wish I had the lift height you have for sure! But I wouldn't give up the visibility and maneuverability to get it!
They all have pros and cons, it's weighing what you consider important to you and your needs. My main need, and reason for buying the Thomas was I cut firewood 100 miles from home. Anything I take with me has to come back, I can't leave anything out there for fear of being stolen or trashed when I get back! I can load two full ( three face cord) cords of wood on a 16' trailer, with the mini on the back of the trailer and pull it all home.
It fit my needs best.


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## treeman75 (Sep 30, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> You have one of the expensive ones too. What is your "all in cost" with everything you use on any given day. Branch manager, dump trailer, anything else I may have missed?


 
New dump trailer 6500, used mini 7500, BMG 2000=16000. I did that last month in sales.


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## Nailsbeats (Sep 30, 2011)

Seems like most of you guys are getting good deals on your mini's. They wanted $17,000 for low hour rental unit's at Bobcat. For that money there was no way I was going to bight. Anything under $10,000 that I found seemed like junk. Instead I spent $18,000 on my 41hp 4x4 compact tractor with 150hrs.

I use 1 tons with sideboards for hauling wood, so the mini wasn't going to have the lift height. That was the main deal breaker for me. Now I have the height, the speed, can lift a mean load, can load the whole truck from over 1 side, and am extremely turf friendly. I can't do 360's around a bbq grill but hey, I'll just move the grill.


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## sawinredneck (Sep 30, 2011)

If you can move a brick or stone BBQ and not have the HO rip you a new one, you are a better man than I!
If you want to drive your machine across the HO's stamped concrete pad to get to the job and risk blowing it out, you got more balls than I!


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> If you can move a brick or stone BBQ and not have the HO rip you a new one, you are a better man than I!
> If you want to drive your machine across the HO's stamped concrete pad to get to the job and risk blowing it out, you got more balls than I!


 
Touche on the brick or stone bbq. On the stamped concrete, 3/4 ply, and we're all good in the hood. I've done zero removals where a stone or brick bbq was in the way. Even then, I think the 4 series is up to the challenge, but if it's not, I know I can spend 30K on a mini to get the job done!


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## ducaticorse (Sep 30, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> New dump trailer 6500, used mini 7500, BMG 2000=16000. I did that last month in sales.


 
Glad you're doing ok in sales, but it still doesn't mean the mini is a sound investment, just means you can afford it. The two numbers are apples and oranges.


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## arbor pro (Oct 1, 2011)

I find it a bit humorous how those who don't own mini skids are quick to dismiss their value while those of us who own them are quick to defend them. Call them toys but you let me ask you this - how many saws do you own? If you have never owned a stihl ms200 (or two or three) along with five or six other top end professional saws, you probably aren't familiar with the concept of using the right tool for the job. Once you've been doing this for 25 or more years, you come to understand that not every piece of equipment is perfect. That's why you justify being an equipment junkie and owning a whole bunch of stuff including a mini skid! :msp_tongue: Truly, I have been using minis for 6 years now and if I had to choose one skid loader - a full size machine or a mini skid - well, the mini skid wins. If you're only argument is that a skid steer with a cab works better for snow removal - well, maybe you should own the skid steer with a cab then. But, if you really want a machine that goes where other machines can't go and easily replaces 1 or 2 ground people, the mini skid can't be beat.

Duticorse, you can argue against mini skids all you want - say they're too wimpy and too expensive - but, you just can't win the argument against those of us who have come to rely on them day in and day out. They are worth their weight in gold and I'll stand behind that until the day I retire from this profession. If you don't buy into the mini skid arguement, that's fine. But, if you've never owned a ditch witch sk650, you don't know what you are missing. It's like trying to make the arguement that a stihl ms192 is just fine and you don't need the expensive ms200...

AP


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## treeman75 (Oct 1, 2011)

I use my mini all the time. Its the jobs when its 95 out and your doing a big one in a back yard and there is a hill to go up, thats when they pay for them selves. You dont need to spend 30k on a setup and once you use one a while you will find a way to afford one.


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## treeman75 (Oct 1, 2011)

Hey arbor pro I looked at the spects on both vermeer and ditchwitch and they both look the same. The ditchwitch lifts 1" higher other than that I dont see much difference. Am I missing something? Thats on s600tx and sk650


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## ducaticorse (Oct 1, 2011)

arbor pro said:


> I find it a bit humorous how those who don't own mini skids are quick to dismiss their value while those of us who own them are quick to defend them. Call them toys but you let me ask you this - how many saws do you own? If you have never owned a stihl ms200 (or two or three) along with five or six other top end professional saws, you probably aren't familiar with the concept of using the right tool for the job. Once you've been doing this for 25 or more years, you come to understand that not every piece of equipment is perfect. That's why you justify being an equipment junkie and owning a whole bunch of stuff including a mini skid! :msp_tongue: Truly, I have been using minis for 6 years now and if I had to choose one skid loader - a full size machine or a mini skid - well, the mini skid wins. If you're only argument is that a skid steer with a cab works better for snow removal - well, maybe you should own the skid steer with a cab then. But, if you really want a machine that goes where other machines can't go and easily replaces 1 or 2 ground people, the mini skid can't be beat.
> 
> Duticorse, you can argue against mini skids all you want - say they're too wimpy and too expensive - but, you just can't win the argument against those of us who have come to rely on them day in and day out. They are worth their weight in gold and I'll stand behind that until the day I retire from this profession. If you don't buy into the mini skid arguement, that's fine. But, if you've never owned a ditch witch sk650, you don't know what you are missing. It's like trying to make the arguement that a stihl ms192 is just fine and you don't need the expensive ms200...
> 
> AP


 
Thank you for your input Arbor Pro. You have some wonderful equipment, and I really applaud your innovations such as your converted chip truck, the paint, and the chipper you had redone earlier in the year. All look absolutely perfect. And congrats on your write up in TCI magazine. 

Obviously the people who have just spent 30K on a machine that takes the place of one person dragging brush is going to defend the purchase to the hilt, Otherwise he or she will have to admit that they made a big mistake spending that kind of money for a very limited jump in productivity. Let me ask you this, how many major tree outfits are running these machines? I can't name one. They spend a hundred K a year doing R&D thinking of ways to increase productivity, but yet, they haven't decided to jump on the mini train yet, and for good reason. Not to mention that, in this economy, a BUSINESS person, (notice how I used the adjective business, and not tree guy) needs to stretch his dollar to the fullest. I realize that these mini's are helpful, NO DENYING THAT. BUT are they a wise investment considering the options? ABSOLUTELY NOT. WHY on earth would you feel it necessary to go out and spend that muvh money on a TOY, when you can purchase a 4 series that does considerably more, for a fraction of the cost, and yes, I will bring up the snow removal aspect once again. Not to beat a dead horse, but because it is a significant portion of why I think the way I do. *NOTE* I purchased my super clean late 1400hr 453 for $3K, and added an HD grapple bucket for $600 to toal $3600 all in. This deal is not your average, but it is attainable.

When this economy goes to crap again, as it likely is going to soon enough. We can revisit this convo, and take a tally as to who wishes they weren't covering a $30K nut to do the work of one maybe two ground guys. I'll be billing 65 an hour for my 4 series and MAYBE do some tree work during the nicer months ;-0 And Arbor Pro, you're too intelligent to say these mini's are worth their weight in gold, that statement is just FOS. Maybe if you're an old timer with a bum ticker or f'd up back, other than that, PLEASE. I hope that when I read the classifieds from inside my heated, enclosed cab on my break, that I don't start seeing "mini's" listed on fire sales.... Again, My opinions are formed from purely a business persons perspective, so please keep that in mind when thinking about what I just wrote.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 1, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> Hey arbor pro I looked at the spects on both vermeer and ditchwitch and they both look the same. The ditchwitch lifts 1" higher other than that I dont see much difference. Am I missing something? Thats on s600tx and sk650


 
That 1 inch higher is still not high enough to load a dump with 2ft boards


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## arbor pro (Oct 1, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> That 1 inch higher is still not high enough to load a dump with 2ft boards



sk650 is 32hp and only 36" wide with narrow tracks. There is a great comparison of the vermeer 600 and dw650 at Ditch Witch SK650 vs. Vermeer S600TX - Ground Trades Xchange - a landscaping forum Just a completely different beast if you compare the power of the two.


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## Juicemang (Oct 1, 2011)

Snow is a freaking joke... let the lawn guys deal with it. There is not enough money in snow to get me to drag my ass out of bed at 2am and push snow around. Not to mention the wear and tear on the equipment with the salt. But hey if you only spent $3000 on somebodys leftovers i guess you wouldn't care about long term.
"bviously the people who have just spent 30K on a machine that takes the place of one person dragging brush is going to defend the purchase to the hilt" Using it for dragging brush is a bonus. I bought it for logs. You think you cant pick up wood with a mini your dumb. So where you might take out 1500lb piece with your bobcat I will take it out in 2 pieces, big deal, atleast im not carrying around a path of plywood with me. The guy I started with had a bigger bobcat and it sat in the yard all but a day or 2 a month. We were constantly cutting small/medium trees to firewood length and loading it by hand. Working for him was like working in the stone age. MINI IS WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 1, 2011)

Juicemang said:


> Snow is a freaking joke... let the lawn guys deal with it. There is not enough money in snow to get me to drag my ass out of bed at 2am and push snow around. Not to mention the wear and tear on the equipment with the salt. But hey if you only spent $3000 on somebodys leftovers i guess you wouldn't care about long term.
> "bviously the people who have just spent 30K on a machine that takes the place of one person dragging brush is going to defend the purchase to the hilt" Using it for dragging brush is a bonus. I bought it for logs. You think you cant pick up wood with a mini your dumb. So where you might take out 1500lb piece with your bobcat I will take it out in 2 pieces, big deal, atleast im not carrying around a path of plywood with me. The guy I started with had a bigger bobcat and it sat in the yard all but a day or 2 a month. We were constantly cutting small/medium trees to firewood length and loading it by hand. Working for him was like working in the stone age. MINI IS WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD.


 
Always has to be an idiot in the group to dumb down the conversation......

Snow is a freaking joke? The joke is you bro. I billed out almost $40K between 3 trucks in three months last year... I'm guessing that is a bit more than you make in a year, but it's only a guess. You obviously know nothing of the subject, or are a lazy ahole who doesn't clean and service your equipment properly after use, because if you did, you'd know that with a good pressure wash and the grease gun, the salt is easily overcome. 

Now back to the mini's. If you had the ability to comprehend, (which at this point, I am doubting) you'd notice that I was making a direct comparison with a 4 series bobcat. Look it up, and it's capabilities before you start whaling off about this and that, because you just made yourself look stupid for a second time in your reply. If you're up for an intelligent discussion, please chime in. If you're going to go off half cocked and totally misinformed while at the same time calling me "dumb", just stay out of it.... I could continue to pick apart your response and make you look like even more of an idiot, but I think even you will get it at this point. Judging by your post, I am WAY smarter than you, and will continue to use your own sentences against you in order to illustrate how stupid you are, and I'll have a blast doing it.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 1, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> I've got a Bobcat 7753 and a Boxer 320.
> 
> 
> The Boxer ends up doing more wood moving on the residential tree work I do. Sure the much larger Bobcat can do more work....but often it can't get to the wood.
> ...


 
It's not a beat down, I was at least trying to keep it as "scientific" and reasonable as possible. Yes the large bobcats are a no go on the smaller resi jobs, but I am specifically speaking of the 4 series bobcat. The conversation, way back when, was about the cost comparison, and multi-functionality of the 2 different types of machines.


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## sawinredneck (Oct 1, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> It's not a beat down, I was at least trying to keep it as "scientific" and reasonable as possible. Yes the large bobcats are a no go on the smaller resi jobs, but I am specifically speaking of the 4 series bobcat. The conversation, way back when, was about the cost comparison, and multi-functionality of the 2 different types of machines.


 
Again and still, you don't get it! I paid $4250 for my Thomas, smooth bucket and used BMG delivered to my front door! It had 1200 hours on it, the pump was weak, I was given a new pump with the purchase. I had to buy two tires, no biggie!
You can't see jack out of the back of that 4 series! It's longer, it's wider it's just plain more awkward!
You are the one not getting it and fighting the trend!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 1, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> Again and still, you don't get it! I paid $4250 for my Thomas, smooth bucket and used BMG delivered to my front door! It had 1200 hours on it, the pump was weak, I was given a new pump with the purchase. I had to buy two tires, no biggie!
> You can't see jack out of the back of that 4 series! It's longer, it's wider it's just plain more awkward!
> You are the one not getting it and fighting the trend!


 
I do get it my man, I do. It is a pita to get in and out of, I'll give you that, but I run a 3-4 man crew, so there really isn't any need to be constantly getting in or out.


I've said my peace on the subject, I'm not going to comment on the thread again. See you in the trees!


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## Juicemang (Oct 2, 2011)

So its ok to spout off about how you don't like minis but as soon as someone doesn't like your bobcat you flip your lid. Instead of giving the guy good information you just go off on how horrible minis are and how you got the best deal ever. You could have just said I bought a bobcat and this is why... I rarely post on here but you come off as an ahole spouting off that your bobcat is the best thing since pounding puss. Have fun being at the whim of the weather this winter ill be visiting mexico in January and BVI in February


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## treeman75 (Oct 2, 2011)

Some guys love snow removal, I hate it! Ya theres money in it but I perfer my nice warm bed at night. They can have it!


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## arbor pro (Oct 2, 2011)

treeman75 said:


> Some guys love snow removal, I hate it! Ya theres money in it but I perfer my nice warm bed at night. They can have it!



Snow = money. I won't bash a guy for wanting to diversify and use his equipment to its maximum potential. Duticorse has a point about having a cab in winter - yes, it is nice to get out of the elements and sit in a warm cab. That said, that is the only reason I would want a 400 series over a mini skid. I just can't justify crawling in and out of that tiny cab just to stay warm during snow removal and then have to be cramped and hot all summer long during tree work. 

As for the arguement that a mini costs too much at $30k... I agree but, who the hell pays $30k for a mini skid? A brand new sk650 is $20k right now (only bad thing is the long waiting period) and I buy and sell used dingos, bobcats, ditch witches, and boxers all the time for well under $10k. Just sold a real nice dingo 425tx wide track for $7k and a like new (97 hours) bobcat mt for only $12,500. You don't have to buy a new mini skid to own a reliable piece of equipment. When I started using mini skids in my area, hardly anyone else was using them. Now, I'm starting to see them everywhere - electricians, masons, landscapers, plumbers, farmers. Some are using the machines and attachments I've sold and others have caught onto the mini skid craze by other means but they are really starting to become a prominent piece of equipment in my town and I don't think it's because they are an overpriced joke. 

Duticorse likes his 400 series. I prefer a mini skid. Somebody else swears by his AWS300. What works for one may not be the solution for another. To each his own. But I guarantee you, the mini skid is here to stay and the improvements in power and capability are just going to get better as time goes on.
AP


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## squad143 (Oct 2, 2011)

My business plan could not afford even a $20,000 mini. I came across one with a BMG and a smooth bucket for $5,500. For that kind of money it was a no brainer.

I'm sure your smaller Bobcat fits your business well Duticourse. What are those things worth new? Would your plan have seen you purchasing a new one?

I would love a T190 to go along with my mini, but I'm considering a towable lift as my next purchase. (used of course).


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## ducaticorse (Oct 2, 2011)

squad143 said:


> My business plan could not afford even a $20,000 mini. I came across one with a BMG and a smooth bucket for $5,500. For that kind of money it was a no brainer.
> 
> I'm sure your smaller Bobcat fits your business well Duticourse. What are those things worth new? Would your plan have seen you purchasing a new one?
> 
> I would love a T190 to go along with my mini, but I'm considering a towable lift as my next purchase. (used of course).


 
No, my plan was never to buy new. I actually have an aversion to new equipment... I respect the use of mini's and do see their load lightening value. As I said before, I have no outside financing, so everything I purchase comes after a LOT of thought regarding how I can whore it out in every capacity to maximize earning potential. My argument was never that minis suck, just that perhaps there was a more economical way to go given the options available.


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## mattfr12 (Oct 2, 2011)

squad143 said:


> My business plan could not afford even a $20,000 mini. I came across one with a BMG and a smooth bucket for $5,500. For that kind of money it was a no brainer.
> 
> I'm sure your smaller Bobcat fits your business well Duticourse. What are those things worth new? Would your plan have seen you purchasing a new one?
> 
> I would love a T190 to go along with my mini, but I'm considering a towable lift as my next purchase. (used of course).


 
the first one i bought was a brand new t190 but told the dealer ill go with a tire machine thier alot cheaper i went with a s250 it was under 40g's if i remember correctly i run my stumper off the front of it.

for some reason the lifting compacity on tracked machines is lower than thier tire conterparts.

tracks= 10k on the price tag.


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## squad143 (Oct 2, 2011)

Everyones business model is different.

Before I got on the Fire Dept. (long time ago), I used to work for a guy who had a contract removing the snow that the plows left in front of the bus stops. We used 753's with heated cabs. Can't imagine doing that without heat. He also had a city contract in the spring using the bobcats to sweep the sidewalks. His sidewalk contract covered his expenses for the year, so the winter work (or anything else) was gravy. I understand what you mean by maximizing your equipment.

The reason I was thinking of a tracked machine over a wheeled one is I figured they would get better traction on the steep hills around where I do a lot of my work. Right now it's just wishful thinking. I only buy when I have the $, and when I save enough, I may get a towable lift.

The wife, on the other hand, may have other plans.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 2, 2011)

Wow te whole MINIS ARE A JOKE THING IS FUNNY , Mine is 3years old and has more than 2,000 hours on it already it never misses a day of work and is cheap to maintain , cheap enough that I am now looking at the 950 T track machine , I want it so bad that I can taste it , if I hit another triple with snow this year in the spring I will be buying one and a decent 12" chipper ... I wouldn't want to ever have to work without a loader again just seems dumb ...


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## ducaticorse (Oct 2, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Wow te whole MINIS ARE A JOKE THING IS FUNNY , Mine is 3years old and has more than 2,000 hours on it already it never misses a day of work and is cheap to maintain , cheap enough that I am now looking at the 950 T track machine , I want it so bad that I can taste it , if I hit another triple with snow this year in the spring I will be buying one and a decent 12" chipper ... I wouldn't want to ever have to work without a loader again just seems dumb ...


 
I think I'm gonna pick one up this week.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 2, 2011)

ducaticorse said:


> I think I'm gonna pick one up this week.


 
I paid 13K brand new with forks and bucket .. The 950t used that I want is only 8k with the bucket forks and and a auger for planting trees there not that bad really it has paid for itself at least 2xs , I don't even run my 7753 anymore unless its snowing and the case 1865 hasn't seen the light of day since march of this year no need ...


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