# Sweet Gum Advice Please



## Lola

I have several sweet gum trees. I would like to provide the best possible care for them. Currently they look a little neglected from the previous homeowner. When we first saw buds in the spring, we thought they were healthy. Now that all the buds have opened, we see that one of the four trees is a little sparse and there are some buds that only started to develop a leaf and then died. Another of the trees is beautiful and full on the bottom but a little sparse near the top. Can anyone recommend the proper watering, fertilizing and general care to give these trees a little tlc? I love them so much and would be really sad if they declined. 

The location is in full sun, they are surrounded by lawn but with a cut-out of dirt and mulch at the base and there are little vents in the dirt. I put the hose into these vents last weekend to see if they needed more water, can't tell if it did any good but we've had the beginnings of hot weather and I thought maybe they were dry. We don't water the lawn that much, and I wonder how much water reaches the roots if any.

Thanks for any help offered!


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## Elmore

*Consult a local arborist*

http://www.canopy.org/howto/arborist.html


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## Lola

I was really hoping for general tree care advice. Unless you feel that my scenario is dire? 

Surely someone must have sweet gums that can offer tips to keep them happy.


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## Elmore

What part of California are you in? What soil type? These vents in the ground sound suspicious. Sounds like someone planted them using some unproven or experimental techniques. Perhaps there is a lot of gravel down under there in the root zone. Maybe the trees were planted utilizing gravel and PVC vents. Maybe the PVC vents and/or gravel were added after planting. The roots may be compromised or damaged. There are a lot of maybes here. A qualified arborist in your area can assess the situation much better than someone reading your description from thousands of miles away.
When living in San Mateo Co, I worked for the parks and we knew these trees as Liquidambar. Sounded a lot classier than Sweet Gum. Here in Northern Alabama I consider them a lackluster, weed species. They are tough and generally grow well without much problem until I put the chain saw to em'.


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## Elmore

*treegator*

Most of your tree's roots, that are involved in moisture and nutrient uptake, are near the top of the grade. Water from the top...long slow deep watering. Check out the treegator.

http://www.treegator.com/home/index.html


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## Lola

thank you for your response


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## Dan R Porter

*Wow*

Sweetgums here usually have few problems, and most people wish they did as most hate their fruit. I have a sweetgum in my yard that has the same symptoms due to "lawnmower Blight" this is damage to the trunk/vascular tissue. Something is interupting the process between the leaf and the roots possibly, have any pictures of the tree, closeup of leaves/area ? This would undoubtly get a response.


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## Lola

Here are a couple photos that might help. I honestly don't think they're that bad, I just wanted to see if there was a way to make it more full. With my plants I can prune them and furtilize them to accomplish this goal, but I'm sure trees are not as simple.

Thanks a bunch!


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## 12guns

Cut them down...replace them w/ a better tree...maple, oak, etc. 
****
I grew up w/ 20-25 sweet gum trees in my back yard..we thinned them out one year and still had 13...I've been hit too many times in the face while mowing... and raked the balls up for punishment...I hate them with a passion. 

*********
if you're set on keeping them for whatever reason, consult a local arborist. They will be able to look at the trees and guide you in the right direction.


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## Lola

These are my favorite trees. I will never cut them down.


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## Elmore

Liquidambar styraciflua, Sweet Gum, are held in higher esteem out in California. As a matter of fact back when I was living there at a time when I worked at Central Park in San Mateo, I was exposed to them and I never heard the name "Sweet Gum". We called them Liquidambar. I guess that sounds more sophisticated. They were known for an upright, linear form and brilliant fall colors. Here on my property they are known for aggressive root systems, annoying seed pods, occasional limbs coming down in storms and a chance to run my saw.


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## pantheraba

Your picture confirms we are talking about the same tree. I agree with these other folks...here in GA, they can be a real nuisance. They get REAL big (for this part of the world) and the gum balls will eventually drive you crazy...they are a good way to turn an ankle...and forget walking around on your nice grass without shoes.

I used to pay my daughter a penny per each when she was about 5 yrs old to pick them up...she got tired of it after awhile.

About 5 years later (10 or 11 years old) she came up to me with a bucket full of 1200 of them she had picked up in just a few minutes...I paid her $12 and cancelled the deal.

Plant a nice beech tree...beautiful, smooth bark, good form.


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## Dan R Porter

*Hmmm*

By the pictures I would almost guess anthracnose, but I don't know what the weather was like in CA at the time of the bud death. It doesnt look that thin for a young tree, but try some BIOPAK + (3-0-20) and use the drench method. Follow the instructions and give it a shot. I know most arborist say "Diagnose before treatment" but in a homeowners case I would give it a shot. It is low Nitrogen, and has a lot of benificial bacteria and other ingredients that work wonders.


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## Lola

I've never heard of that disease before, but when I looked it up it did sound like my tree might have this. We had a very dry winter, then the leaves started to develop from the buds, then we were slammed with 6 weeks of on and off heavy rains. The weird thing is that there is another tree directly beside it which was unnafected. 

If I try your solution, can it harm the tree in any way? Even if we've misdiagnosed? 

By the way, I did contact an arborist and am awaiting a quote for his consulting fees. What is the going rate for consulting? I have no conception of high vs. low since I've never hired an arboritst before.

Thanks


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## Dan R Porter

*...*

No the biopak plus will not harm your tree unless you have some Ph issues going on, but with a sweetgum you are probably safe. Also I don't know the consultation fee in CA, and it usually depends on the arborist. I do it for free for friends and coworkers but I make them sign off on stuff that covers my butt if I see something unsafe and they refuse to remove it. I would try the BIOPAK and wish for the best. Your tree is not that large, sorry to say this but replaceing the tree is probalbly cheaper then getting a consultation haha.

Let me know what happens.


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## Lola

Perfect, that's what I was hoping to hear. Truly, most people would just leave it as is and hope for the best but I tend to be crazy about my trees. I'll definitely try the biopack and thanks for the comment on replacement vs. hiring. I know a tree like that is not too expensive to replace, but I have good hopes for it anyway.

The link from Elmore said that deep watering once or twice a month for the first five years during the growing season is a good practice and that pruning and fertilizing could do more harm than good when they're young. So unless anyone has anything else to contribute or dispute with this, I'll give this all a go and see where it takes me. 

Wish me luck! Thanks for all the advice.


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## Dan R Porter

*No*

He is absolutly right, fertilizing can be bad for a young tree, especially Homeowner stuff with high ratios, but Biopak plus has barely any chem's in it, mostly benificial bacteria, PHC (Plant health care) the company that makes biopak, also makes mycor stuff, but i believe mycor is pointless, it exists in most settings naturally, and mychorr (Mychorizae) is very sensetive to chemicles, like insecticides, fungicides, even glufosphate materials (Finale Roundup etc.) so if you leave your yard organic it is probably already there, if you use anything non-organic, it will likely die if you innoculate it anyways. So anyways I am getting off the subject. Fertilize with Biopak or a low, VERY low fertilizer with benificial bacteria, wetting agents, or what have you. Do not use the stuff you find at the local hardware store (especially do not use miracle grow.) And keep it well watered. I bet it will turn around and be the best tree in your yard. 

I use bio-pak on aaround thirty 45 ft 14" dbh pin oaks that were transplanted with a 70" spade (That means big tree, remove lots of big roots, stick in new hole, pray that it lives) and it works wonders.


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## Lola

Well I have an arborist coming to look at my trees within the next three days. I'll post a follow up on his findings. Luckily I found someone that lives a mile from my home so he should be very familiar with my growing conditions. 

I like the sound of the Biopak Plus as well, but haven't been able to find it at the nursery I go to. I may have to order it online. 

Thanks very much.


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## SpookHollow

Lola, I am not sure what the situation is with the trees, but I am constantly working with sweetgum trees. I assume you are referring to a species that is not indigenous to your area. Typical sweetgums are a pioneering tree and do so in seasonally saturated ground that is moist even in the dry season. I see these trees in swamps ans mountain sides but are always in an area where water is plentiful. My suggestion is to keep the trees watered and they should take care of themselves. Also, when they reach maturity they may produce menacing sweetgum balls. These are a source of angst with landwoners in the south. They are slung by the mower and are devestating to bare feet! Anyways. I hope I gave you some insight. 

P.S. Sweetgum can produce some tastey chewing gum.


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## Lola

Thanks for the tip, maybe I'll try watering more as well. Our temps just started reaching over 80 so I don't want them to dry out. Of the four trees I have, three have the balls that we refer to as "pokey balls". It's really weird that one of the trees doesn't have them, but the bark is a little different too so it must be a ball-less strain. We have a lab puppy that likes to chew up the balls and being as we have a dog we NEVER walk barefoot on the grass or the pokey balls would be the least of our problems! ewwww.


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## Ekka

I think your neighbour is gonna be sorry about those two disgusting juvenile Queen Palms stuck between the fence and the house. (see 2nd pic)

I'd be culling them before they get big asap.

Oh, we call those trees Liquidambers. Invasive protruding surface roots, might pay to set up a root barrier now that way you wont have to worry about containing or cutting them later.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

When your arborist comes to look at the trees, if he doesn't mention the fact that the tree(s) is (are) planted to deep and probably have girdling roots, send him packing.
Here is some required reading for you (and those that responded to your query so far): http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=33156


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## Lola

I'll see what he says about the roots, but are you sure about the depth? Isn't that the flare near the bottom? There is also a couple inches of mulch there.


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## coveredinsap

That looks to be a drain line. The kind used on foundation drains ....usually perforated pipe to take the water away from the foundation and off the property. Also used in french drains. Maybe there was a problem with standing water there and they put in the drains, then the trees.

Liquidambar....beautiful trees, but messy, with roots strong enough to break up and lift concrete, and they will break it when they get big enough. A mature tree will literally raise itself (and the surrounding earth) up about a foot or so from grade with it's massive root system. Beautiful lush foliage is the reward for those willing to put up with them. You can literally feel the cool air coming from a mature liquidambar foliage on a hot day.


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## Lola

I was actually referring to the flare on the tree since the other person said it was planted too deep. I don't think so actually, what do you think?

As for your opinion on how they are beautiful and cool, I completely agree. That's what I love about them. They also have such a fresh green color. I've heard that about the roots though. I guess I'm willing to take the chance.


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## coveredinsap

Lola said:


> I was actually referring to the flare on the tree since the other person said it was planted too deep. I don't think so actually, what do you think?
> 
> As for your opinion on how they are beautiful and cool, I completely agree. That's what I love about them. They also have such a fresh green color. I've heard that about the roots though. I guess I'm willing to take the chance.



I'm not an arborist, but it looks OK to me. As I said, these liquidambars raise themselves up the older (and bigger) they get anyways....so even if it was I don't see it being a little "too low" as even being a problem.

I'm in the process of digging out the stump of a (formerly beautiful) 80' liquidambar now....and the root system is amazingly massive. The evidence indicates that the tree was poisoned by someone (not the owner) who didn't like it on the property line.


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## Lola

We found out the 'drain' isn't even a drain, it's part of the irrigation to deep water the tree. It's not currently attached to any of the sprinkler lines, but it was reccommended to me that I could put a hose in there to deep water. 

We don't use any kind of pesticides on the lawn, since we have a dog.


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## Lola

There hasn't ever been any, but we do hand pull weeds if we come across them.


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## Lola

Hi All,

Well I had my appointment with the Arborist today. As it turned out, my trees are too wet. The deep watering pipes are collecting overspray from the lawn sprinklers, so no additional hose watering is needed. (I had been deep watering 1 or 2 times per month) Other than that he said three of my trees are healthy, and the one that I photographed is in distress, but should recover if I can dry it out a bit. He also suggested grow power furtilizer along with urea nitrogen 46-0-0 to give them a boost. 

He said they were all disease free and there was no issue with girdling roots. He also said they were planted properly, not too deep, and he could tell the soil had been amended, as it was good even at a depth of 5' (none of our native clay soil was present). 

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions and advice. I really appreciate the help. 

Lola


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## Ekka

Lola said:


> Hi All,
> He also suggested grow power furtilizer along with urea nitrogen 46-0-0 to give them a boost.
> Lola



What's the soil PH?

Dan, I'd say that being in the growing season the guy is thinking high N to bring on a flush of growth but at the same time it could be detrimental to the tree.

Not something I'd do but that species is pretty tough.


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## Lola

The nitrogen was in addition to the "Gro Power Plus 5-3-1" for general fertilizing. He said to use it in a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being the grow power. Does that change your opinion? I felt lucky to get him as a consultant, as his company is very well respected and established. Although everyone can make a mistake, I just wanted you to know that it wasn't a fly-by-night company. 

What do you suggest?


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## Lola

My neighbor did a soil test and it came up as fairly neutral, a 6 I believe. 

The Arborist did mention that the nitrogen would be good to give it a boost.


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## Lola

I didn't think to ask how much to do. I'll have to call him. Do you have a reccommendation? I also called the nursery to see if they had the n and they only have a milder concentration. So in light of what you just said, perhaps I'll start small and work up if it responds well. 

I never knew it was so complicated to care for a tree!

Thank you!


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## Lola

I am now more confused than ever!!!

I went to the nursery to pick the urea nitrogen. They strongly urged me not to use the nitrogen along with the grow power, as it would burn the tree (or so they say). They recommended a hormone called superthrive to use along with the grow power instead. 

I am now paralized with indecision. Treeco, you were pretty against the nitrogen, if this were your tree what would you do to improve it's health?

Thank you

PS: I asked the consulting arborist to confirm what he said, and this was his response: "Sulpher coated Urea is not a water soluable source of Nitrogen & therefore pretty safe to use". Apparently he's been doing this for years with success.


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## Lola

Actually no, I forgot about that part and didn't mention it to the nursery either. Did I just avoid a huge error? So in light of the correct terminology, it sounds like you now approve of the method? :biggrinbounce2:


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## Ekka

If indeed the trees are overwatered then theoretically there should be an oversupply resources available to support a flush of growth.

Trees need the foliage to photosynthasise, the more leaves the more transpiration the more energy to grow and so on.

So, in the short term to solve the problem growth would be good. However with a drought affected tree with no resources and limited stored supplies it may lead to it's demise.

In the long term, use organic fertilizers and work on creating the right soil conditions for the trees to prosper.


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## KLBCCTALLY1

I agree with 12guns cut em all down. I live in Florida and these things are a nuisance and everywhere. Plant something more attractive like a yellow poplar, maple, or cherry. The bad part is once you cut them down you start to see volunteers everywhere. Sorry guys I don't like them.


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## treeseer

KLBCCTALLY1 said:


> I agree with 12guns cut em all down. I live in Florida and these things are a nuisance and everywhere. Plant something more attractive like a yellow poplar, maple, or cherry. The bad part is once you cut them down you start to see volunteers everywhere. Sorry guys I don't like them.


Arborphobia rears its ugly head again. how can someone in Florida tell someone in California that a species is trash?

Not to mention, how can anyone anywhere look at a sweetgum with its fall color and say it is not attractive?

Lola look to the root system and see that it is healthy and functioning before dosing it. If your local arborist has good referrals then he's earned some trust.


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## Lola

Thanks for the encouragment and advice. I've got to agree that the fall color is spectacular and even throughout the year the leaf color is such a fresh bright green. It's a beautiful tree. 

KLB; why the negativity? That really doesn't help anyone...


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## Ekka

They're one of the very few species around these parts that give fall colour. And they have a very symetrical shape, easy for kids to climb (and rookie tree guys I suppose) ... in the right spot they're great.

Just the roots need room, and a mulch circle is required so you dont get annoyed with those gum balls.

People knock our salt tolerant seaside Casuarina's for their prickly gum balls too, but I can tell you that it's better than nothing for shade coz not much else will live there. 

Just gotta have ya thongs on when at the beach.


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## Lola

I didn't picture you for the type of guy to wear a thong! :biggrinbounce2:


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## treeseer

Lola said:


> I didn't picture you for the type of guy to wear a thong! :biggrinbounce2:


If you ask his missus, you may hear a different opinion! 

Casuarina form great thickets on the Florida coastline. Misguided native plant enthusiasts call for their eradication, only to see the coastlines degrade and wash away in storms.

Right plant, right place.


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## Roy Young

Did anyone catch that program over the weekend about this homeowner in Southern CA that had a liquidamber tree that was planted 75 feet away and the root system basically destroyed his pool & foundation of his house? His house was basically a total loss. Estimated repair was well over $500,000.00.
The "expert" on the program said this was a "worst case scenario." 

Has anyone had any experience with root problems from these trees? I have a sweet gum that is approximately 20 yrs old with a trunk diameter of approx. one foot that is planted about 30 feet from the garage. Haven't seen any problems with the roots as of yet. The tree that was mentioned in the program also had been cut down 2 yrs earlier, but had problems with the root system sending up growth shoots.


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## Lola

Yikes! How scary is that? I think I'm glad I didn't catch that show. 

We used to have an elm tree that had destructive roots. We had it cut down eventually, but the roots wrapped around the lawn sprinklers and had tons of surface root 'speed bumps'. The tree had been planted 20 years prior and the house was a rental for forever, so we were told that it never got watered properly and as a result sent roots up to the surface looking for water. Judging from the condition of the lawn (or lack of a lawn) this seemed logical to us, as clearly the landscaping had been neglected for quite some time.


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## Elmore

Roy Young said:


> ...Has anyone had any experience with root problems from these trees?...



As I said on the first page "Here on my property they are known for aggressive root systems, annoying seed pods, occasional limbs coming down in storms and a chance to run my saw."
No problems like that man had with his pool but as Ekka said "... in the right spot they're great." I generally will remove mine in areas that I am planting superior trees as the roots, once again, are too aggressive and the litter can be detrimental to Japanese Maples. If they are very large I will leave them and work around it. I've got one a little too close to the house that I wish treeseer would drop for me, next time he's in this area. It looks like an easy drop but with my luck and lack of experience it might take a large portion of my roof with it.


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## stevet

Get rid of the termite inspection/poison "vents" and have them moved a bit away.
Quit pruning the trees. (naturally a nice "elmish"/cone shape)
Give them a general fertilizer.
Put sand or soil in small amounts over roots that come up and get whacked by the lawnmower--the grass will grow right through.
Give them a few years and just watch them grow.
When I moved into this location less then 7 years ago the few I left standing were about 3" to 4" in diameter--now they are 1 foot in diameter or so and 35 ft tall.
But I'm hard headed and stubborn so I cultivate the silly things myself and it's the only major source of shade for my newish yard until the Bradford Pears and Magnolia's get a bit larger.
They are the predominate tree around here outside of the Cedars, Persimmon, and down by the spring branch the Birchs.
I just call them the "Southern Elm"--it comes up everywhere--sprouts from the roots readily, and puts seeds everywhere.
The resulting "Gum Balls" are your reward for letting the pesky things grow.
But if you "like 'um"--"grow 'um" .


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## Lola

Thanks for the reccommendations, but I don't have termite poison vents nor have I pruned. Or was that just general advice?


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## stevet

The pictures of the "vents" look suspeciously like a termite station/baiting station to me--if not, I could be easily mistaken, sorry.
Pruning off old dead stuff is a common thing for a few folks....pruning the Gum trees will produce a bunch of little branches quickly and mess up the shape if pruned much.
Just general advise. 
I kind of like my Gum trees, even if they reward me with a sticky, and pointy little thing to step on in the fall/winter. (barefooted is an adventure sometimes in my yard.)


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## Lola

oh, ok thanks. The "vents" are deep watering pipes actually. 

I love my trees and the sticky balls don't bother us since we don't walk barefoot in the lawn (we have a dog, enough said...). 

:~)


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## bells458

The browns balls that you took a picture of are called monkey balls it is normal if they produce them. They are supposed to.:monkey


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