# Logging for remote cabin site in AK



## svfancler (Nov 1, 2012)

I purchased property in an area I really wanted in remote SW Alaska, I plan on getting a permit to harvest state lands and I have already contacted the DNR and that appears to be no problem.

Now I have to figure out a method of skidding logs out of the swampy valley bottom to the build site. The site is on a rise and I am looking at 200 hundred minimum vertical and anywhere from a mile to 4 miles overland. 

My vision is minimalist, but I dont think I will be able to pull 20 foot spruce logs out of the swamp by hand. I do think I can cut a trail up the slope and probably horse them up slowly but surely get a stack on site. 

As for the swamp, its serious Alaskan swamp, definitely a lot of places I wont even be able to walk through let alone run equipment. So my question is what are the best techniques for skidding in tough, wet situations. 

Right now Im thinking chainsaw winch for the tough stuff and rigging up a long hand winch or relay of several hand winches to get up the slope, so let me know what you think!


----------



## Slamm (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm not very tough........... Just reading what you wrote swamp, 4 miles, uphill, horse .............. made me want to quit the job already.

Good luck,

Sam


----------



## parttime (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm afraid I'm like sam, but I would love to see pictures of a project like this. Good luck and work safe.


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 1, 2012)

oh boy, I'd 'copter in an Airstream.


----------



## Gologit (Nov 1, 2012)

"Minimalist" doesn't always work. A chainsaw winch or a hand winch will be slow and cumbersome. If you need to move enough logs to build a cabin maybe a little sno-cat of some kind might work better.

And don't forget to take your tennis racket...you'll need it to fend off the sparrow sized mosquitoes.


----------



## slowp (Nov 1, 2012)

What size of trees are you cutting? 

I have some friends who built a small, log house out of lodgepole. They cut it into lengths that they could carry and haul in their pickup truck. He rebarred the logs together and put most horizontal, but some are vertical between the windows, and it is a very snug and warm house. I'd guess it is around 900 sq. feet and it is two stories tall. It is located in what we call, The Siberia Of Warshington, a place known for getting cold. 

They planned it so they could build it without having to hire or rent big equipment.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 1, 2012)

Free labor here. I would love to move to Alaska. Wife not so much, but guess I will see her when she comes up for the summers. lol. A atv and log arch might work, or a skid loader if you can get it there. Or you could just get logs closer to you cabin building site. I think I would stay away from the swamp area.


----------



## Slamm (Nov 1, 2012)

I work in and around bottom grounds and swamps and I can tell you that whatever you are doing with regards to moving logs in those conditions, just multiply it times 10. If he is remote then multiply a bad situation like getting stuck times about 100, because if he gets his ATV stuck who is going to pull him out?

If he doesn't already know "Mudology" thats a term I've come up with for the study of mud and its effects on a logging production, then he is going to learn all of the hard things ........ harder.

I know horses too, and mudd or swamps and horses don't mix either, as they have a very high PSI on the ground and will sink like lead weights especially when trying to pull something.

Do like most every other uncivilized culture does and stay away from swamps.

That is life saving advice.


Sam


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 1, 2012)

Have you heard of Richard Proenneke, he built a cabin up there by himself, using only hand tools when he was 53ish but he stayed up there until 86ish(have horrible memory for times), someone made a movie out of his home videos from the 60s called Alone in the Wilderness, you should see if you can find it. There also a national park at his old cabin site and the cabin is still there.

Any way for moving logs, Richard just carried them, but Richard is hardcore, Wait until freeze up, and build a sled, lots of pictures of two horses pulling somthing like 6 cords (roughly 18000 pounds) in the snow, so one guy could feasibly pull 3-4 logs at a go with a snowmobile, or four wheeler, maybe more? use the chainsaw winch to assist in loading. Either way lots of hard dangerous work in the middle of nowhere with no chance of being found in time if something were to go south, so be very careful.

Moving anything across a swamp of any kind is an exercise in futility, it can be done just not fun and definetly not easy. If you pull it off you'll be allot more of a bad-mo-fo than I can ever dream of being.

His first name is not Richard but the stupid spell check thinks I'm swearing


----------



## Rick Alger (Nov 1, 2012)

Man, you have got a challenge ahead of you. Here's my two cents.

I recently skidded the logs for a wilderness cabin with my horse. The terrain was both steep and wet. One of the builders had a 4-wheeler there, but he decided the machine couldn't do the job. 

I skidded about 30 logs a day. They averaged 16 feet long with an 8 - 12 inch top. The average skid was no more than 300 feet straight up hill from a spruce swamp. It took three days to get all the logs skidded and piled on site.

To skid 4 miles with a horse with any efficiency at all, you would have to make a decent trail and use a sled to haul a bunch of logs at a time. Also it would have to be after freeze up and on packed snow. If you decided to use technology, I think a snow machine with a sled would do this faster or a 4 wheeler with an arch.

Anyway, best of luck.


----------



## svfancler (Nov 1, 2012)

slowp said:


> What size of trees are you cutting?
> 
> I have some friends who built a small, log house out of lodgepole. They cut it into lengths that they could carry and haul in their pickup truck. He rebarred the logs together and put most horizontal, but some are vertical between the windows, and it is a very snug and warm house. I'd guess it is around 900 sq. feet and it is two stories tall. It is located in what we call, The Siberia Of Warshington, a place known for getting cold.
> 
> ...


----------



## svfancler (Nov 1, 2012)

*Thanks for the replies*

Thank you all for your replies. 

As it stands my timeline includes a trip in next summer just to poke around with a saw. Stack some firewood and get a real sense of whats its going take. I actually already have a potential buyer for the property so if those of you that said give it up are correct then thats what I will do.

But if i go out, measure, mess around, get my feet wet and still want to do it I still dont expect this to go smoothly or quickly. Ive got a nice gig in the wintertime to keep me busy, but the idea of going in the winter while the grounds frozen seems like it could be productive. This area is at the foot of the Alaska Range and upon talking with some old timers it sounds like going in at any time is never 100% safe, but summer is safer. I plan on having emergency communications on hand and there is a ldge about 10 miles from the location. That lodge even has ATVs and I think.what may work is renting an Atv from them during their slow early summer season and using that to skid up the hillside. The swamp remains and I think its got to be a chainsaw winch and carefully picking my battles. But please I welcome any more information or input that you have.


----------



## 2treeornot2tree (Nov 1, 2012)

How much property and how much was it? I am so so interested in moving there. I would much rather have bears as neighbors then these stupid people texting while driving and running red lights cause they are in such a hurry.


----------



## svfancler (Nov 1, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Have you heard of Richard Proenneke, he built a cabin up there by himself, using only hand tools when he was 53ish but he stayed up there until 86ish(have horrible memory for times), someone made a movie out of his home videos from the 60s called Alone in the Wilderness, you should see if you can find it. There also a national park at his old cabin site and the cabin is still there.
> 
> Any way for moving logs, Richard just carried them, but Richard is hardcore, Wait until freeze up, and build a sled, lots of pictures of two horses pulling somthing like 6 cords (roughly 18000 pounds) in the snow, so one guy could feasibly pull 3-4 logs at a go with a snowmobile, or four wheeler, maybe more? use the chainsaw winch to assist in loading. Either way lots of hard dangerous work in the middle of nowhere with no chance of being found in time if something were to go south, so be very careful.
> 
> ...




Yes, when I was in high school I read ####'s journal and watched his home movies. That wasin the 60s when staking a cabin site was a pretty simple task.

Nowadays in order to do it legit you have to nominate an area for staking, then there is the actually staking process then a bid process at market value so its not as simple. You also have to be a resident to qualify. Non-residents are left with land sales and there are some good deals but you cant pick exactly where you want to build, unless you want to do it outlaw style which I don t think is the right approach. 

#### Proennecke inspired alot of people, me being one of them, but as far as directly applying his techniques to logging, unfortunately I dont think I will have the luxury of just carrying them on site. Though I think I will be able to get away with building with 5-7 inch spruce rather the standard 8-10, which is a big difference in terms of selection and weight. 

I qm certainly going to be using some of the same construction tecchniques, though with my experience as a mason I am going to try to upgrade his gravel floor to a stone floor over a gravel bed. But that is still a few years and lots of work down the line.


----------



## slowp (Nov 1, 2012)

I failed to mention that my friends cut standing dead lodgepole for their cabin. That makes it considerably lighter in weight.


----------



## Tundra Man Mike (Nov 1, 2012)

Lake Clark Area? I have shipped heavy equipment parts all over Alaska, have built remote cabins and have a fairly decent background in what it takes. Hauling freight in the winter is 2-10 times faster than summer. You need the right snowmachine and the right sled.

Lots of people want a log cabin. Until they find out that a stick built structure goes up faster, is better insulated and easier to upkeep. Most cabin failures are due to poor roof designs, flooding, fire and foundations. 

You should be able to get a cabin package dropped near your place. SBS SBS Home Improvement has been doing it for years. There are remote airstrips all over. 

These guys do it all the time. Friesen's Custom Cabins - Remote Projects

Time is your enemy. Permafrost is your enemy. Don't forget skeeters, bears and hypothermia.


----------



## Slamm (Nov 1, 2012)

slowp said:


> I failed to mention that my friends cut standing dead lodgepole for their cabin. That makes it considerably lighter in weight.



That is what that Di(k Proenneke guy was using was standing dead wood. He was picking up one end of the logs with easy ............... that isn't oak, LOL.

Must be styrofoam wood or something.

Sam


----------



## stikine (Nov 1, 2012)

Tundra Man Mike pretty much summed it up for that part of the state...snow machine and sled are your best options for moving logs that distance. The pre-built kits would be much faster too.


----------



## Jim Timber (Nov 1, 2012)

How do you get to the cabin site?


----------



## Tundra Man Mike (Nov 1, 2012)

This is a 300F SkiDoo Tundra. Beams are 6X12X20'. I ran 35 MPH with plenty of throttle left.







300F again 






570 Bearcat






Overflow is your enemy. Run all trails before you try to tow a load. If you hit water, let it freeze up solid before attempting to tow a load. Swamps are known for overflow. Conditions can change in just a few hours. 

We took in most of my cabin package in 4 hours. 2 trailers, one pickup load. Around 7000 lbs.

3 Men. 2 disabled vets and 1 22 Y/O. Stacked and covered. 

In contrast. 7 MPH.


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 1, 2012)

I know a few people that have done not exactly what you are talking about but similar.
Winter is your friend. Get in there when things are frozen and bring a snowmobile. Build yourself a trail to the timber and you should be able to skid the logs pretty easy. No mud, everything will be frozen.
I question the idea of using very small trees though. No insulative value to a 6 inch pole. Bigger the better in my book. Can't pull the bigger trees? What about a vertical log cabin.
What are you going to do there? I think I'd be bored to tears once the new wears off.


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 1, 2012)

Me and the wifey got a copy of alone in the wilderness couple years ago for kristmass(yule for us pagans). I plan to one day be self sufficient, Mr. Proenneke helps me relax when things don't go well (replace his last name with his first name and say it out loud...:msp_ohmy, If he can do it at 53 or so then my busted butt should be able to pull it off before I'm 45, The best part of his book in my limited opinion is the psycho in the fur coat...

Good luck with your project though.

Spruce logs can be pretty light when dry, thats why the Wright brothers used em for air planes, hence the spruce army during world war one, but they are still pretty heavy when wet or green. Figure roughly 3.25 green, or 1.91 dry, pounds per board foot, that makes a 10" x 20' log weigh 425 pounds green or 250 pounds dry, these are ish numbers but they will get you in the ball park, so yeah Di(k is still a bad mo-fo


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Nov 2, 2012)

What about a cord wood house/cabin? Again, very, very slow and labor intensive, but the material may be easier to get to the building site. You will need a means of collecting firewood anyway, same thing for the cordwood. It all sounds romantic, but I would strongly listen with an open ear and heart to those who live there.


----------



## Slamm (Nov 2, 2012)

About that romance stuff, there is something about getting stuck in mud pulling logs that will quickly take the romance out of most any situation.

I always have to tip my hat to those that just work their butts off the hard way and never stop to think, what else could I be doing right now if I had worked smarter?

I don't mind working hard, but I work smart first and back it up with hard to get it done faster. My dad just worked hard ........... and I had to do it with him, there is easily 2 years of my life that could have been spent doing something else if we had the proper tools and equipment to clear land and fence rows, but thats how he wanted to do it, LOL. He taught me hard work, but you will get more out of life if you will work smart and hard.

I spent many a summer digging post holes with a hand post hole digger when a 3 point tractor auger was leaning in the corner of the shed ............ I'm 36 years old, its never moved ......... thats my dad.

Think to yourself, do you want to be knee deep in mud drinking whiskey trying to get an ATV unstuck or on the front porch drinking a beer/wine looking out at the horizon. Get some prefab'd lumber products and sled them in and be done with it, then spend time looking at the scenery, instead of getting it all over you, LOL.

Its one thing if the OP already knew what he was doing, but 10 miles from the nearest soul ain't the time to learn some skills.

Just an opinion,

Sam


----------



## svfancler (Nov 2, 2012)

Slamm said:


> About that romance stuff, there is something about getting stuck in mud pulling logs that will quickly take the romance out of most any situation.
> 
> I always have to tip my hat to those that just work their butts off the hard way and never stop to think, what else could I be doing right now if I had worked smarter?
> 
> ...



I appreciate your warning about the realities of this kind of work, but after clearing lots and building patios for about 4 years in Montana, often above 6500 ft. elevation Im pretty well sure I do like hard work and I have some of the skills to do it. 

My question is really about this swamp. We dont have much about swamp here in the rockies and though Ive strapped up 7 ton boulders and skidding them around on steep slopes with an excavator, I have not pulled 300 pound logs out of a swamp and I thought this might be the place to get some answers about technique. I admire all of you real loggers out there, but the work my little outfit has done around ski mountains here would probably make a lot of you want a stiff drink. 

Of course what Im talking about doing is terribly difficult, that is why im asking around, calling guys that have done it and scouting the place with little more than my pack and a bow saw before I dump my lifes savings into this project.

I take the real warnings and the actual advice very seriously but the dismissive, you dont want to do that comments assume too much about who I am and what I want to do.


----------



## Slamm (Nov 2, 2012)

Sounds good.

A man without a challenge is typically only a shell of what he could be or could have done. Different things challenge different people. Maybe this is your challenge ........... me, I'd helo in a little cabin and go hunting or fishing everyday after that.

Good luck, and post photos,

Sam


----------



## ShaneLogs (Nov 2, 2012)

You could wait till the ground freezes up hard and the water freezes up and the ice is thick enough to bring machines across it then you could skid logs right across the swamp.


----------



## forestryworks (Nov 2, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Have you heard of Richard Proenneke, he built a cabin up there by himself, using only hand tools when he was 53ish but he stayed up there until 86ish(have horrible memory for times), someone made a movie out of his home videos from the 60s called Alone in the Wilderness, you should see if you can find it. There also a national park at his old cabin site and the cabin is still there.



Proenneke's book is a great read and should be required reading of all Alaska-bound modern homesteaders. I place his book on the same shelf I place Aldo Leopold's "A Sand County Almanac". 

Proenneke was also a great naturalist in his own right and was instrumental in Lake Clark becoming a National Park & Preserve.

He lived in this cabin for thirty years.


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 2, 2012)

A guy can move a fair bit of wood with a four wheeler, even more if you can get the end of the ground, and four wheelers get pretty good mileage, the problem lies in this swamp you speak of, most of the chain saw winches etc, have a line speed of around 100' a minute and plenty of power to pull the logs you want to pull especially when dry, but do they have enough reach? you want to keep anything you can't pick up easily on solid ground, that means dragging string out into the swamp by hand and yarding to hard ground, not fun work but not impossible, your also hampered with the chainsaw winches by how far you can reach, the Lewis winch can only carry 150' of line, the capstan types can use an unlimited amount of rope... but rope is kinda iffy and likes to stretch, and get cut on stuff and packs full of mud... on and on. so if you can get within range of these logs you should be able to deck em up with the lewis winch and then pull a stick or two at a time with the fourwheeler, especially with a log arch. If your cut off from your cabin sight with more swamp or creeks, then deck the logs at a solid spot in the summer using chainsaw winch and wait until winter and use a snowmobile to move em to the cabin sight. The real bastard heavy work will be getting them to an initial gathering point out of the swamp, falling, limbing, yarding, all a pain by hand but not impossible. If you can rig it run your winch line up in a tree 20-30', that way as the logs come in the end gets lifted a bit and they are inclined to stack themselves for you, in theory anyway, doesn't have to be real high but the higher you go the better the results. This method is called cold decking by the way, build a big pile of wood and then come back later and concentrate on moving them farther down the line. Once you have your cold deck it shouldn't take more than a week or two of skidding them to the cabin sight, unless you want some kind of backwoods mansion, then figure on three weeks:msp_biggrin: Good luck to you and I really want to see pictures of this project!


----------



## svfancler (Nov 2, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> A guy can move a fair bit of wood with a four wheeler, even more if you can get the end of the ground, and four wheelers get pretty good mileage, the problem lies in this swamp you speak of, most of the chain saw winches etc, have a line speed of around 100' a minute and plenty of power to pull the logs you want to pull especially when dry, but do they have enough reach? you want to keep anything you can't pick up easily on solid ground, that means dragging string out into the swamp by hand and yarding to hard ground, not fun work but not impossible, your also hampered with the chainsaw winches by how far you can reach, the Lewis winch can only carry 150' of line, the capstan types can use an unlimited amount of rope... but rope is kinda iffy and likes to stretch, and get cut on stuff and packs full of mud... on and on. so if you can get within range of these logs you should be able to deck em up with the lewis winch and then pull a stick or two at a time with the fourwheeler, especially with a log arch. If your cut off from your cabin sight with more swamp or creeks, then deck the logs at a solid spot in the summer using chainsaw winch and wait until winter and use a snowmobile to move em to the cabin sight. The real bastard heavy work will be getting them to an initial gathering point out of the swamp, falling, limbing, yarding, all a pain by hand but not impossible. If you can rig it run your winch line up in a tree 20-30', that way as the logs come in the end gets lifted a bit and they are inclined to stack themselves for you, in theory anyway, doesn't have to be real high but the higher you go the better the results. This method is called cold decking by the way, build a big pile of wood and then come back later and concentrate on moving them farther down the line. Once you have your cold deck it shouldn't take more than a week or two of skidding them to the cabin sight, unless you want some kind of backwoods mansion, then figure on three weeks:msp_biggrin: Good luck to you and I really want to see pictures of this project!



This is excellent feedback! I saved this right into my little research folder. I am hoping to find two or three accessible stands on this first trip in and I will measure carefully and reference against the capabilities of the lewis winch. The capstan looks like something that WILL pack full of mud as soon as the line gets wet. I understand the Lewis winches are very reliable, and I know some guys who have gotten them second hand with no problems, but for this remote work Im thinking sink the money into a new one.

The cold decking is exactly what I need to do. Im not a millionaire and this is a long term goal for me so breaking things into stages is my only option. 

Im not building a four-star commercial lodge, we're not talking a thousand logs. My initial plans are leaning towards something more like 12 x 16 so contracting one of my neighbors four wheelers or bringing in a snowmachine is not going to run me in the e10s of thousands...unless i blow it up and have to fly in a new one. 


Thanks again.


----------

