# Husky vs Stihl vs Echo for Milling



## Ethobling (Jul 29, 2022)

Hey folks. Hope you are well. 

I have a question, but first, a small amount of info on where I'm at...

Recently, I purchased an Alaskan Sawmill (36") and a 462 for milling my own lumber. I didn't want to shell out the cash for a bandsaw sawmill, especially seeing how many are on backorder for many months. Also, I wanted to have something dual purpose and easy to move around, so a chainsaw mill fit the bill.

I am running the 462 stock. 40:1 mix using Stihl premium oil and 89 octane ethanol-free gas. 25" bar or my 36" bar if necessary (I realize this is significantly larger than recommended, but it is working fine so far).

My question: I am big on planning for the future. I expect this 462 to last a few years (especially with good maintenance), but I am considering buying a new, probably bigger saw and using the 462 more as a felling saw.

Which saw should I get? Brand doesn't really matter to me. I have all 3 brands (Echo CS400, Husky 440, Stihl 194t, 029, 462) and like them all, even if the 440 is kinda meh. I'm considering the Husky 395, the Stihl 661, and whatever comparable saw Echo carries (which I don't think they have). I want to carry a 36" with ease. Bigger if necessary.

I value durability over everything else. With that, parts availability for the foreseeable future is also a big factor. 

I've read rumors that Stihl is focusing more on power to weight ratios instead of durability, but it's probably just rumors.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## ammoaddict (Jul 29, 2022)

Of course Husqvarna is the best, in my eyes anyway. Lol. Seriously you can't go wrong with any of those three. I guess it would come down to price, availability and which one feels best to you. There are a lot of the holzfforma clone saws being used for milling with good results for a fourth of the cost.


----------



## Karrl (Jul 29, 2022)

Echo CS 1201, last of the big old school torque monsters. Message RobinWood on here if you’re interested in one.


----------



## ElevatorGuy (Jul 29, 2022)

Husky wouldn’t be the best if it was the only choice. 661 is calling your name.


----------



## J D (Jul 29, 2022)

Don't have any experience with the larger Echo's, but if you go with a 661 get the non-mtronic version so you can tune it a tad rich for milling. I believe the 395 has a bit more torque & is a bit better suited to milling, but the front chain adjuster can be a bit awkward on the mill


----------



## Ethobling (Jul 29, 2022)

After watching a video Ironhorse did on the 395 Holtz clone, I am inclined to go the Holtz route. I'm thinking their "660Pro" since he tore down their 395Pro and was impressed with how far they had come with build quality.

I mainly lean 660 because I already have a bar and 2 chains that will fit (coming from the 462). I also theorize that the 660 pulls a chain faster (albeit with less torque than a 395) which may result in a smoother cut.

What do y'all think?


----------



## ammoaddict (Jul 30, 2022)

You can get an adapter on eBay to run Stihl bars on Husqvarnas for about 10 bucks.


----------



## gurwald (Jul 30, 2022)

395 is the superior saw for milling, outboard clutch, strong, oils very well and built like a truck. The cylinder and inside of a 660 looks like a 70cc saw.
Cant comment on a 661.
Buy a nice used 395 or stihl if you want quality.


----------



## fields_mj (Jul 30, 2022)

I'll preface my post with the fact that I do not own a mill of any kind, and never have. I've been researching bigger saws for a few years because of a 60" oak in my back yard that was dying. I have a well used 064 already, so I bought a 42" bar for it and dropped the dead tree at the end of Feb. The trunk produced 4 ten foot logs. I had to mill each one in half to get them light enough to lift onto my trailer. I burned the 064 up milling the first (s.allest) log. I will rebuild the saw because it's light weight, but in the mean time I purchased a new G660 for $321 delivered. That price includes the premium i paid to get the saw from US stock. I had the powerhead in 2 business days instead of having to wait 2 to 3 weeks for it to arrive from the plant. It needed about $50 worth of parts right off the bat,including a high output oil pump, but now it appears to be a real screamer, all be it a heavy one. I finished milling the last log in golf with it last weekend, and I've noodles a lot of big limbs (including the top to logs from the trunk) down into firewood that I can lift on my splitter. I've run around 6 gal of fuel through it esing the 42" bar and it's doing great. 

I know you listed durability as your top priority, and readily admit that the Chinese saws are likely the least durable option, but hear me out. My understanding is that milling is really hard on saws to the point that the power heads are somewhat of a consumable item. If thats true, why spend over 400% more on something that is only likely to last 50% to 100% longer? Buy 2 G660s instead. One to run, one for a backup so you can continue to run while the first one is being rebuilt. Your into it for less than half the cost of one new MS661, or obout the cost of a well used MS660. 

Any way, just a thought to consider from a guy who honestly has no idea what you really need. 

Good luck, and God Bless.


----------



## Ethobling (Jul 30, 2022)

I would have to go with the G660, simply because Holtz doesn't have a "pro" model of the 395. It was a "pro" saw Ironhorse reviewed and said was a very good saw for the money. I don't know if the non-"pro" saws they carry have the quality described by Ironhorse.

Holtz has a "pro" 660 and a "pro" 372. I suspect the 372 wont fit the bill for me, since it's the same CC as my 462, so I would default to the 660 "Pro".

It seems logical to do the Holtz route, seeing how they have consistently improved their saws over the past few year and the price is still quite amazing. And a new non-Mtronic 661 (I will probably never buy an M-tronic saw) is like $1500. $500for a G660? I can buy 3 of those "Pro" G660s for the price of a new 661! AND I can use any genuine Stihl parts on it? Seems like a good deal.

I wish they had a "Pro" 395. I'd go that route in a second, especially if it was orange, lol. Not a huge fan of the fuax carbon fiber look.

Does anyone know if the non-pro Holtz saws still have good enough quality to be worth getting? The non-pro 395 is $360. Have they made the piston rod harder on the non-pro saws?

Thanks for all the input so far!


----------



## ammoaddict (Jul 30, 2022)

All of the current ones are better than the older ones. The pro ones have a meteor piston, caber rings, an Italian made cylinder and walbro carb. That's about the only difference. Yes any OEM part will fit either one. I don't really like the carbon fiber look either. They do have an all orange 395. There are a couple video reviews of the 395. Personally I don't have faith in anything iron horse says. There are reasons I say that and will just leave it at that. I have a 660 that I built from a kit years ago. It had it's share of problems. It runs good now but still a little hard to start. I also built one of the 365 kits. I only had to replace the decomp, oil pickup hose, starter rope and buy an oring that was missing. It starts, runs and oils very well. If I wanted the 395, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. But you have to make the decision that you feel the best about. Post some pictures of whatever you decide to get. Good luck sir.


----------



## Lightning Performance (Jul 30, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> All of the current ones are better than the older ones. The pro ones have a meteor piston, caber rings, an Italian made cylinder and walbro carb. That's about the only difference. Yes any OEM part will fit either one. I don't really like the carbon fiber look either. They do have an all orange 395. There are a couple video reviews of the 395. Personally I don't have faith in anything iron horse says. There are reasons I say that and will just leave it at that. I have a 660 that I built from a kit years ago. It had it's share of problems. It runs good now but still a little hard to start. I also built one of the 365 kits. I only had to replace the decomp, oil pickup hose, starter rope and buy an oring that was missing. It starts, runs and oils very well. If I wanted the 395, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. But you have to make the decision that you feel the best about. Post some pictures of whatever you decide to get. Good luck sir.


That was another great post in this thread. Take heed to what he said about Tin Pony. Many could give two about what he thinks about anything. Don't waste your time there OP.

Everyone has hit the key points about longevity of parts based on their original production materials and processes. The OEM road grows grey as the years pass. Things are not so this vs that anymore. The playing field is much less of a mountain now if you have been doing your homework yourself. About ten other key points should come up for discussion here that I'm not going to cover.

Decide first how much your willing to do on your end. If your not a builder do you seek one out or go with the NIB offerings? Custom maybe with everything you want in it or just, not?
A brandy new 2K plus power head isn't always going to be the answer here.

Second how much serious cutting will it go through? Milling big chit? Big chit is hardwood over three feet in any direction around here. That is just your own judgement call. Do you like maintenance or hate it?

Third is your support. Will it be Amazon, a local dealer, mail order, used, new, new AM or OEM?... decide first. Some have all these options and others not so much based on location and budgets. I'm currently focused on milling big chit. I want it all and being a builder I can have it all and more with more power.

I can't overstep my bounds here or say anymore really as far as having one built by anyone not being a sponsor or in a clique. I'm not currently offering anyone anything. Just doing my thing over here in five foot oak. No worries though someone will be along shortly to dump on me or my stuff.

Good Luck on whatever way you decide to go. Pulling big chain in big wood isn't easy to do well and have little service issues or breakdowns. The CSM is a whole nuther kettle of fish to fry and taste good with the right batter. It's not always about the recipes you have to start with the right ingredients then practice your best blending skills 

What are your specific worries and how, who or what could fix them.
Sorry there was no magic bullet answer for you or a specific chainsaw to pick out.


----------



## J D (Jul 30, 2022)

If it's going to be on the mill the majority of the time the 070 they offer could be another viable option.
With either the 395 or the 070 you could put a meteor cylinder & piston kit on them & have spent less than their 660pro offering. The 070 could also be bumped up to an 090.


Ethobling said:


> I also theorize that the 660 pulls a chain faster (albeit with less torque than a 395) which may result in a smoother cut.


What you want for a good finish milling is smooth & consistent travel, this is easier to achieve with torque as opposed to rpm.
If you have the torque you can always run a larger rim sprocket to up the chain speed (if you have a rim drive setup)


----------



## Karrl (Jul 30, 2022)

I’m not saying not to get a clone, but I will throw out there that you can still buy a new 395 but probably not for much longer. They also hold their value well, especially if taken care of. 

If you are are going to get a clone RedneckChainsawRepair is a member on here who has a lot of experience with the different clones and even has a new 395 already.


----------



## sean donato (Jul 30, 2022)

I run my 394xp converted to 395xp top end on my 36" Alaskan mill. No issues oiling the bar. The front chain adjuster is a bit of a pain, but nothing that bad. The 660 is a fine saw just more expensive all around then the 395xp and isn't that much better in a cut imo. The 395xp dies have the oiling advantage over the 660. Can't advise on the clone saws, haven't used any of them.


----------



## j-jock (Jul 31, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> You can get an adapter on eBay to run Stihl bars on Husqvarnas for about 10 bucks.


You can wrap a cotter pin around the pins of the Husky, and run a Stihl bar with no issues. This technique works for several different saws. By doing a little grinding with a Dremel type tool, you can also run a Husky bar pattern on a Mac. You also have to slightly increase the size of the adjustment hole.
Bob


----------



## j-jock (Jul 31, 2022)

My favourite saw for Alaska milling, is the Husky 2100. I ran both single and dual power head saw bars, and preferred the feel when cutting with Huskys over the Stihl. I also liked the fact that both the gas and the oil fittings were accessible without having to pull the saw out of the cut to service it.


----------



## ammoaddict (Jul 31, 2022)

j-jock said:


> You can wrap a cotter pin around the pins of the Husky, and run a Stihl bar with no issues. This technique works for several different saws. By doing a little grinding with a Dremel type tool, you can also run a Husky bar pattern on a Mac. You also have to slightly increase the size of the adjustment hole.
> Bob



Interesting. So you're saying wrap the pin around the bar stud and cut it off so it basically forms a circle, similar to a split washer?: Would you happen to have any pics of this?


----------



## J D (Jul 31, 2022)

If you do a search you'll find a few posts on the Stihl/ Husky adapter...
Post in thread 'Stihl bar on Husqvarna 395xp' https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/stihl-bar-on-husqvarna-395xp.354490/post-7580247


----------



## j-jock (Jul 31, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> Interesting. So you're saying wrap the pin around the bar stud and cut it off so it basically forms a circle, similar to a split washer?: Would you happen to have any pics of this?


The way I learned to do it, was to straighten the cotter pin enough, where one end forms a hook that wraps completely around the first pin. The remainder of the cotter pin, makes a diaganal, from the bottom of the first pin, to the top of the second pin. The remainder of the cotter pin wraps around the second pin, almost forming a figure 8. No cutting involved, and the Stihl bar fits the Husky pins, just as if an adapter was used. 
I have have the Stihl to Husky adapters, but can never seem to find one when I need it. This cotter pin adapter works just as well, and can also be used to adapt the Stihl bars to other old saws.
There is a youtuber called, Buckin Billy Ray, that I have seen use this trick, I will look for a link. I found a link for you, the technique is mentioned and demonstrated at approximately 8:50 into the youtube.

Bob


----------



## ammoaddict (Jul 31, 2022)

j-jock said:


> The way I learned to do it, was to straighten the cotter pin enough, where one end forms a hook that wraps completely around the first pin. The remainder of the cotter pin, makes a diaganal, from the bottom of the first pin, to the top of the second pin. The remainder of the cotter pin wraps around the second pin, almost forming a figure 8. No cutting involved, and the Stihl bar fits the Husky pins, just as if an adapter was used.
> I have have the Stihl to Husky adapters, but can never seem to find one when I need it. This cotter pin adapter works just as well, and can also be used to adapt the Stihl bars to other old saws.
> There is a youtuber called, Buckin Billy Ray, that I have seen use this trick, I will look for a link. I found a link for you, the technique is mentioned and demonstrated at approximately 8:50 into the youtube.
> 
> Bob




Thank you. I have some cotter pins but not sure they are long enough.


----------



## JPCalifornia (Jul 31, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> I would have to go with the G660, simply because Holtz doesn't have a "pro" model of the 395. It was a "pro" saw Ironhorse reviewed and said was a very good saw for the money. I don't know if the non-"pro" saws they carry have the quality described by Ironhorse.
> 
> Holtz has a "pro" 660 and a "pro" 372. I suspect the 372 wont fit the bill for me, since it's the same CC as my 462, so I would default to the 660 "Pro".
> 
> ...


If you guys keep buying the Chinese rip-off saws, in the future they will be the ONLY saws available. 

I wonder how any and all of you would feel if:

1. You got ripped off, and

2. None of gave a ****, and bought your stolen stuff. 

Just some food for thought...


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

JPCalifornia said:


> If you guys keep buying the Chinese rip-off saws, in the future they will be the ONLY saws available.
> 
> I wonder how any and all of you would feel if:
> 
> ...


I own a wide variety of brands. Echo, Poulon, Husqvarna, and Stihl. I have given patronage to all of those brands (except Poulon...those saws were free from a neighbor). I own 3 Stihl saws including my recently purchased 462, which was $1200. 

Stihl ain't going anywhere. Husky ain't going anywhere. I'm not rich, but I need to make a living. I can't go and spend another $1200+ on a milling saw at the moment.

Holtzfforma is a problem solver. It fits a niche. It's cheap, but I don't expect it to last nearly as long as a Husky or Stihl. That's totally FINE. Maybe once a Holtz saw starts crapping out, I can have the funds to buy a proper Husky/Stihl.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 1, 2022)

JPCalifornia said:


> If you guys keep buying the Chinese rip-off saws, in the future they will be the ONLY saws available.
> 
> I wonder how any and all of you would feel if:
> 
> ...


So you've never bought anything that has a pirated design? Always from the original manufacturer and never from China? I doubt it. Get off your soap box.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

Question: How effectively will a 395 mill a full 36" of oak? Is it too much for it?

I'm trying to figure out the absolute max of what I will be milling, and I think that is the absolute max. I can't imagine milling anything larger than that.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 1, 2022)

I've never done it but seen several videos of guys doing it with great success. The only thing bigger is a 3120xp in the Husqvarna line.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> I've never done it but seen several videos of guys doing it with great success. The only thing bigger is a 3120xp in the Husqvarna line.


Gotcha. I'm trying to convince myself out of getting the Holtz 888, especially if I don't need it. It's significantly more expensive than the 395 clone. 

To clarify: I want a Holtz saw for several reasons:
1. It's cheap
2. I can work on it and learn from it without fearing I'll break a $1500 saw
3. They seem to have gotten much better in quality in the past few years.

Now if I can just find a G395 that isn't that ugly blue color...lol


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 1, 2022)

Yep, that's why they exist. I have seen orange ones on their website, are they out of stock?


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> Yep, that's why they exist. I have seen orange ones on their website, are they out of stock?


Yeah. Out of stock.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 1, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Question: How effectively will a 395 mill a full 36" of oak? Is it too much for it?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out the absolute max of what I will be milling, and I think that is the absolute max. I can't imagine milling anything larger than that.


It does it fine, what I use to mill on my Alaskan. Biggest thing is letting the saw do the cutting and not pushing it it cut faster then it wants to. I could get about 3 passes before having to swap chains or touch up the one on the saw. Heck I've done the same with my 390xp in a pinch, you can tell the 390xp is working harder then the 394/5xp.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

Question: 

If I get a 395, what would be the best "bang for the buck" modifications to make it a better milling saw? I guess my first priority is saw longevity (but power also), so would a more open muffler help? If so, which one would be a good option for a fair price?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## JPCalifornia (Aug 1, 2022)

sean donato said:


> So you've never bought anything that has a pirated design? Always from the original manufacturer and never from China? I doubt it. Get off your soap box.


Sean, I avoid Chinese products whenever possible, and I do not own any motorized forestry equipment made in China. I’d like to see you get ripped off and be just fine with it... or are you okay with theft? The only people I’ve seen that are okay with theft are thieves. If you don’t like me objecting to theft then cry me an F-ing river.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 1, 2022)

Can y'all take this debate elsewhere? 

Thanks.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 1, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Question:
> 
> If I get a 395, what would be the best "bang for the buck" modifications to make it a better milling saw? I guess my first priority is saw longevity (but power also), so would a more open muffler help? If so, which one would be a good option for a fair price?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Best bang for buck is a muffler mod, and tune. They do get pretty loud after a muff mod. You can always have it ported. That wakes them up pretty good, but can affect longevity if done improperly. Truly this is one thing where you just can't have a big enough saw if you plan on doing a lot of saw milling.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 1, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Can y'all take this debate elsewhere?
> 
> Thanks.


In the sake of trying to stay on track I'll omit my comment and just block the instigator.


----------



## cookies (Aug 2, 2022)

I suggest a 8 series stihl or the 3120 husky, buy something you will grow into not something you will grow out of. Buy once and cry once and have the right tool, Yea you can buy the china express knockoff and spend another hundred or three getting it oiling enough, strong enough clutch/bearing/drum/ rim and replacing any of the other qwerky parts it comes with or improvements you want, remember there is 0 repair warranty for you once you get it but you can spray paint it pink if blue or fiber is no your cup of tea. You could start looking in your area up to a few hours drive away for a saw to tear down and build yourself jumping in with both feet. 
Whatever you decide I highly suggest searching heavily in here and google through threads at what your chosen model needs such as what improvements, common fixes, make lists of needed modifications and look for videos to see how others physically do things like take covers off and really clean a saw before storage and lastly make lists of necessary tools and extra parts to start acquiring.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 2, 2022)

sean donato said:


> Best bang for buck is a muffler mod, and tune. They do get pretty loud after a muff mod. You can always have it ported. That wakes them up pretty good, but can affect longevity if done improperly. Truly this is one thing where you just can't have a big enough saw if you plan on doing a lot of saw milling.


Gotcha. Yeah, I'll probably need more than earmuffs after a mod.

How can an improper port job affect durability? Can a properly done job still affect durability?


cookies said:


> I suggest a 8 series stihl or the 3120 husky, buy something you will grow into not something you will grow out of. Buy once and cry once and have the right tool, Yea you can buy the china express knockoff and spend another hundred or three getting it oiling enough, strong enough clutch/bearing/drum/ rim and replacing any of the other qwerky parts it comes with or improvements you want, remember there is 0 repair warranty for you once you get it but you can spray paint it pink if blue or fiber is no your cup of tea. You could start looking in your area up to a few hours drive away for a saw to tear down and build yourself jumping in with both feet.
> Whatever you decide I highly suggest searching heavily in here and google through threads at what your chosen model needs such as what improvements, common fixes, make lists of needed modifications and look for videos to see how others physically do things like take covers off and really clean a saw before storage and lastly make lists of necessary tools and extra parts to start acquiring.


Thanks for the input. I really want a proper 3120, but there's no way I can afford it atm.
I like the idea of getting a Holtz and then fixing anything that breaks along the way so I can get good experience messing with a saw that isn't expensive. If the piston goes caput? Great! I'll learn how to replace the piston. Carb wont stay in tune? Great! I'll learn how to put on and tune a new carb.

Again, I would love to spend the cash on a 3120 or 881, but I don't have the money. If someone wants to donate one, I'm all for it.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 2, 2022)

You are looking at the clone saws with the right attitude. There's a chance you won't have to replace anything. I would suggest jotting down some of the tidbits of good information you get through this thread. There are several good tuning videos on YouTube. As far as doing a muffler mod, remember the saw will be on its side so be sure to direct exhaust outlets away from you. You may need to open up the oil holes on the bar so it will


----------



## fields_mj (Aug 2, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Gotcha. Yeah, I'll probably need more than earmuffs after a mod.
> 
> How can an improper port job affect durability? Can a properly done job still affect durability?
> 
> ...


Realistically, with your mind set, application, and goals, the G070 might be a good option. Especially since it allows you to upsize to a 66mm piston if you need/want.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 2, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Gotcha. Yeah, I'll probably need more than earmuffs after a mod.
> 
> How can an improper port job affect durability? Can a properly done job still affect durability?
> 
> ...


When your porting your essentially changing the airflow through the engine via changing the ports, cylinder height and at times ignition timing. There are great gains to doing this. There are also guys that are really good at it and longevity isn't an issue. Poor porting can decrease power output and at worst cause the engine to wear out pretty quickly. Biggest thing is it can be hard on the piston ring (s). I love ported saws and own quite a few, but my big saws I use I typically let alone out side a muffler mod. A "woods" port job typically give a good power bump and doest effect the long-term operation of the saw. Think of it like putting a cam and bumping the compression in you car engine. Bigger cam, higher compression more power, the more you make the chances of it lasting longer go down. 
Now don't let me put you off if you really want it, but milling is about the hardest thing you can do with a saw. Best to get the biggest saw you can afford and run with it.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 2, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> You are looking at the clone saws with the right attitude. There's a chance you won't have to replace anything. I would suggest jotting down some of the tidbits of good information you get through this thread. There are several good tuning videos on YouTube. As far as doing a muffler mod, remember the saw will be on its side so be sure to direct exhaust outlets away from you. You may need to open up the oil holes on the bar so it will


Thank you.


fields_mj said:


> Realistically, with your mind set, application, and goals, the G070 might be a good option. Especially since it allows you to upsize to a 66mm piston if you need/want.


What does that do for power/displacement? What kind of gains?


sean donato said:


> When your porting your essentially changing the airflow through the engine via changing the ports, cylinder height and at times ignition timing. There are great gains to doing this. There are also guys that are really good at it and longevity isn't an issue. Poor porting can decrease power output and at worst cause the engine to wear out pretty quickly. Biggest thing is it can be hard on the piston ring (s). I love ported saws and own quite a few, but my big saws I use I typically let alone out side a muffler mod. A "woods" port job typically give a good power bump and doest effect the long-term operation of the saw. Think of it like putting a cam and bumping the compression in you car engine. Bigger cam, higher compression more power, the more you make the chances of it lasting longer go down.
> Now don't let me put you off if you really want it, but milling is about the hardest thing you can do with a saw. Best to get the biggest saw you can afford and run with it.


So a woods port job does what, exactly?


----------



## fields_mj (Aug 2, 2022)

G070 is 105cc, 090 is 135cc. Both run at relatively low RPM compared to the 660 and 880 but their power band is at a lower RPM as well which gives them more torque. They won't generate as much chain speed, so they won't cut 24" cookies as fast, but their power band and torque make them pretty much unstoppable. This means you don't have to keep your RPM up to keep from sticking the chain. 

As far as torque specs go, the thread below seems to have quite a bit of information. 






070-088-076-090 torque comparisons


Now I know paper figures are by no means everything, but I have been looking at them none the less. It seems to be, the 070 has significantly more torque than the 076, and the same as an 088 (well, 0.1Nm less), while the 090 is quite a bit higher. My sources are the test reports in the reference...



www.arboristsite.com





Keep in mind that I have no idea how any of this applies to milling. I'm just throwing the information out there.


----------



## Sierra_rider (Aug 2, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Thank you.
> 
> What does that do for power/displacement? What kind of gains?
> 
> So a woods port job does what, exactly?


It's just pretty much just a milder form of porting that optimizes the peak power to be in a useable range for a work saw. I generally aim to move the peak power up in the rpm range compared to a stock saw, but not so much that it's unusable or is super "peaky."

I do my own saws, I start by turning the combustion chamber down to bump up compression, followed by decking the cylinder to correct for squish. This action effectively opens the intake port sooner(more duration) and opens the exhaust port later(less duration.) 

Depending on where the numbers lie, I might adjust port heights from there with a flex-shaft grinder. I may or may not widen the ports. With a work saw, I try to stay conservative on port width...you don't want them so wide that it puts extra stress on the rings or possibly snags a ring. I usually open up the transfer ports as well. I also smooth/shape the ports...there isn't really a recipe for this, I just try to envision what shapes would flow the best.

Finally, I finish up with exhaust modifications and sometimes advance the timing. Honestly, just opening up the muffler is good enough for most people. There are some saws that come from the factory with horrible port timing numbers, but most saws are pretty close. On some saws, I also do aftermarket air filtration. I like Max-flows on any of the older, non-air injected Stihls(440-880.) Especially when milling, if you do a 880 copy, you'll find that the air filter will fill up fast.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

Thanks for that info. 

Question: Is this VP full synthetic good 2 stroke oil? JASO FD certified...


----------



## cookies (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Thanks for that info.
> 
> Question: Is this VP full synthetic good 2 stroke oil? JASO FD certified...


yes its good oil


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

cookies said:


> yes its good oil


How would y'all rate it compared to Amsoil Dominator or Echo Red?


----------



## sean donato (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> How would y'all rate it compared to Amsoil Dominator or Echo Red?


They are all good oils, get whichever you like and run with it.


----------



## cookies (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> How would y'all rate it compared to Amsoil Dominator or Echo Red?


Thats a dangerous question to ask on this forum in a thread you want to go smoothly and get the questions you ask to be seen and answered. I highly suggest searching for the "favorite oil" thread, last I saw was over 1,000 posts and still climbing.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

cookies said:


> Thats a dangerous question to ask on this forum in a thread you want to go smoothly and get the questions you ask to be seen and answered. I highly suggest searching for the "favorite oil" thread, last I saw was over 1,000 posts and still climbing.


Oh, wow. OK. 

Thanks.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> How would y'all rate it compared to Amsoil Dominator or Echo Red?



Red armor is excellent and probably the most expensive. I was using saber but switched to dominator. Most 2 stroke oils contain fuel stabilizer but dominator being a motorcycle racing oil does not. So if you store it for any length of time you may want to add some. I really hope this doesn't turn into an oil thread.


----------



## Karrl (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> How would y'all rate it compared to Amsoil Dominator or Echo Red?


For me it would come down to price and availability. I’ve stocked up on Red Armor, Saber, and Redmax Fd oil, when I’ve found a good price. In my ported saw I’m going to stick to Amsoil saber or Red Armor out of superstition. The rest of my saws will get those or my Redmax Fd( Husky Fd) oil that I got cheapish. And my string trimmers get anything, including the dreaded Stihl ultra and SuperTech.


----------



## Karrl (Aug 3, 2022)

Also I couldn’t help myself and I apologize if this thread gets oiled up.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 3, 2022)

Karrl said:


> Also I couldn’t help myself and I apologize if this thread gets oiled up.



I understand. When you are addicted to chainsaws, it hard not to bring up the O word.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 3, 2022)

It's a debated topic no matter what engine.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

I didn't know 2 stroke oil could be so controversial, lol.

Thanks for the input.

Anyone have any info on bar oil? I imagine it isn't nearly as critical to find out which is the best, but it would still be good to know.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> I didn't know 2 stroke oil could be so controversial, lol.
> 
> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Anyone have any info on bar oil? I imagine it isn't nearly as critical to find out which is the best, but it would still be good to know.



I've seen heated discussions on bar oil too. I buy the cheapest I find.


----------



## Karrl (Aug 3, 2022)

I run whatever is cheaper, thicker isn’t always better. Dry or frozen conditions it helps to have a thinner bar oil ime.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> I've seen heated discussions on bar oil too. I buy the cheapest I find.


I suppose that makes sense, if you compare the cost of the oil compared to the cost of the bar. I bet I'll run several times the cost of the bar in bar oil before the bar even needs redressing.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 3, 2022)

Karrl said:


> I run whatever is cheaper, thicker isn’t always better. Dry or frozen conditions it helps to have a thinner bar oil ime.


But tackier is better, yes? An oil that stays on the bar longer (especially when having the full bar buried in wood) is better, I would imagine.


----------



## Karrl (Aug 3, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> But tackier is better, yes? An oil that stays on the bar longer (especially when having the full bar buried in wood) is better, I would imagine.


Generally but in dead dry ash or maple I find that tacky oil gets absorbed quicker and my bar dries out. You might not have the same experience, same with 2 stroke oil, so you have to find what works for you and your region.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 3, 2022)

I get whatever is cheapest at the time I need it. Last year I got 14 gallons of mystic branded bar oil for around $6.00 each. Still have quite a bit of it left. I find it's just best to stock up when you get a good deal.


----------



## andy at clover (Aug 3, 2022)

I use Canola or other cheap Veggie oil if I’m milling a bunch with the 3120.

It’s easy to go through a couple gallons of bar oil when slabbing a few big logs… I don’t want all that poison on my land…. It adds up.
You’ve got to clean up your saw and mill though as Veggie oils can harden/gel up over time.
I just use a rag and some 40:1 mix while everything is fresh. 
Never had an issue. 

On the felling and limbing saws I use Itasca brand… good/sticky and usually cheap bar oil.

With Canola, I have found critters actually eating the stuff off the ground including a bear chowing down on a pile of alder chips that soaked up a minor spill…. Effin bastard went to the trash for desert!

View attachment IMG_4681.MOV


----------



## Lightning Performance (Aug 4, 2022)

Just run virgin canola oil and don't leave it in your saw after it was boiling off the bar studs.

The AM 395 clone in as good as you can buy or get built for common chainsaw milling except the 888. That XP clone is going to be the best bang for your buck imo. Running Stihl S2 mount bars on everything isn't a bad idea or Cannon. The chain cutter tip is where the work gets done so buy semi chisel if you suck at sharpening or get better at it and run full chisel. Cheap chain sucks! Full chisel dulls faster milling with bark on or in dirty wood/bark on the entry side.

Your going to need an accessory oil feed if you mill wide dry stuff. Yes the 395 can oil the 36" milling bar but you may go bigger up to a 42 or 52" slabber or Cannon belly bar. The muffler always needs improvements suited to your mill. A stock saw isn't a bad choice here with a decent air filter system on it as is. That said I mostly mill with a ported 660 OEM saw with many mods. It has a much better pull and higher compression but nothing crazy. The 084s aren't crazy either. Tools are best kept under control while crossing the eyes and dotting the Ts. 

1200 or 1201 will outlast them all 

If I had to start from scratch and wanted a basic simple clone to build it would be the 395xp Pro or equivalent. Second would be the 070 if milling time isn't a concern. They might be slow but are very well suited to just churning along nice and steady. I do not like the old ignition systems hidden away under the flywheel. The rest can be updated or altered as needed. Buyers choice at this point. Longer bars and taller tails with more cutters are better suited to bigger rims and more cubic centimeters spinning more weight to keep up the torque.


----------



## Fatherwheels (Aug 4, 2022)

Why did you change form saber to dominator, might help the OP
chose between them.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 4, 2022)

Motherboard said:


> Why did you change form saber to dominator, might help the OP
> chose between them.



Only because of the testing results that were done in another forum. I still have saber and will use it. It's great oil. I just bought a couple quarts of the dominator because it did so well in the tests. The amsoil rep said saber was created for use in trimmers, blowers and saws at 80:1 ratios. He also said that in ported higher rpm chainsaws that dominator might be a slightly better choice but at 40:1. I ran the saber at 40:1 as well.


----------



## Fatherwheels (Aug 5, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> Only because of the testing results that were done in another forum. I still have saber and will use it. It's great oil. I just bought a couple quarts of the dominator because it did so well in the tests. The amsoil rep said saber was created for use in trimmers, blowers and saws at 80:1 ratios. He also said that in ported higher rpm chainsaws that dominator might be a slightly better choice but at 40:1. I ran the saber at 40:1 as well.


I have no experience with either, though I read dominatro has better protection
against rust in the bottom end, and saber does not, that alone would keep me
away from saber, probably not as big a problem if your using the engine all year
round but sitting up rust will start if there is no protection from that light film of
oil in the bottom end, dino oil seemed to do a great job in that department, I run
semi synthetic for that reason, Echo Gold Blend at 40:1.
Made a mistake one day, dumped in a 200ml bottle 4.5 liters of fuel, it was barely
noticeable, that stuff certainly burns clean, now there was a tiny hint of smoke, but
at 20:1 I was surprised how well it all went, never had a 200ml bottle of 2T before,
caught me off guard.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 5, 2022)

Motherboard said:


> I have no experience with either, though I read dominatro has better protection
> against rust in the bottom end, and saber does not, that alone would keep me
> away from saber, probably not as big a problem if your using the engine all year
> round but sitting up rust will start if there is no protection from that light film of
> ...



They both have rust protection. That was tested as well. Don't be afraid of either of them.


----------



## Fatherwheels (Aug 5, 2022)

ammoaddict said:


> They both have rust protection. That was tested as well. Don't be afraid of either of them.


People who tore down saws lead me to believe saber does not do well in this regard,
I have no link to the video though, wish I had kept it now.


----------



## ammoaddict (Aug 5, 2022)

Motherboard said:


> People who tore down saws lead me to believe saber does not do well in this regard,
> I have no link to the video though, wish I had kept it now.



I have heard that of dom but not saber. Remember saber is designed for handheld seasonal equipment that sits during the off season. Dom is made for a race engine that is torn down often. From the long term tests I've seen, I trust them both.


----------



## Ethobling (Aug 5, 2022)

andy at clover said:


> I use Canola or other cheap Veggie oil if I’m milling a bunch with the 3120.
> 
> It’s easy to go through a couple gallons of bar oil when slabbing a few big logs… I don’t want all that poison on my land…. It adds up.
> You’ve got to clean up your saw and mill though as Veggie oils can harden/gel up over time.
> ...


Aren't most bar oils like 80% bar oil? I think the Tractor Supply brand is, at least.


Lightning Performance said:


> Just run virgin canola oil and don't leave it in your saw after it was boiling off the bar studs.
> 
> The AM 395 clone in as good as you can buy or get built for common chainsaw milling except the 888. That XP clone is going to be the best bang for your buck imo. Running Stihl S2 mount bars on everything isn't a bad idea or Cannon. The chain cutter tip is where the work gets done so buy semi chisel if you suck at sharpening or get better at it and run full chisel. Cheap chain sucks! Full chisel dulls faster milling with bark on or in dirty wood/bark on the entry side.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I'm leaning 395 (again xD). Seems like I can get the clone for $350 and replace any parts that break with genuine Husky parts (which supports Husqvarna, for anyone who thinks I'm ripping off Husky by buying a clone). It also seems like the 395 has a of power hidden (probably because it is the EPA version of the 394?).


ammoaddict said:


> I have heard that of dom but not saber. Remember saber is designed for handheld seasonal equipment that sits during the off season. Dom is made for a race engine that is torn down often. From the long term tests I've seen, I trust them both.


Thanks for this info.


----------



## sean donato (Aug 5, 2022)

Ethobling said:


> Aren't most bar oils like 80% bar oil? I think the Tractor Supply brand is, at least.
> 
> Thanks for that. I'm leaning 395 (again xD). Seems like I can get the clone for $350 and replace any parts that break with genuine Husky parts (which supports Husqvarna, for anyone who thinks I'm ripping off Husky by buying a clone). It also seems like the 395 has a of power hidden (probably because it is the EPA version of the 394?).
> 
> Thanks for this info.


I never noticed any real difference between the 394 and 395. The 394 was prone to vapor lock issues. The rubber intake pretty much solved that issue.


----------



## j-jock (Sep 24, 2022)

Fatherwheels said:


> I have no experience with either, though I read dominatro has better protection
> against rust in the bottom end, and saber does not, that alone would keep me
> away from saber, probably not as big a problem if your using the engine all year
> round but sitting up rust will start if there is no protection from that light film of
> ...


Disclaimer: I am not attempting to hype one oil product over another, but I am going to relate my experience with one product over a period of 40 years. I know for a fact, that there are lots of other excellent 2 cycle oils out there.

I have been using Saber 100:1 in all my equipment since 1982,, including an old Lawnboy I resurrected on a bet, that had been run on straight gas, and have never had a lubrication related problem with a single two engine in all that time. 
At 79, I am not as active anymore, I still use a lot of two cycle oil in applications such as, in my Husky 480 and several trimmers. I also have approximately 30 chainsaws (all runners), in my collection, and still like running my big saws. (all on 100:1 using the Amsoil Saber oil)
Starting in the 70s, I was quite concerned with the degradation of the fuel, but I have not had a problem with any of the saws I used a lot. I think the most important issue, is to never, ever, run the saws lean. The extra fuel in a saw running slightly on the rich side, is actually being useful by providing cooling.
I might also add, that I have had no problem with the stability of the mixed fuel, but with the continued reformulations of gasoline, I now add stabilizer to my two cycle container for over the winter when I use less two cycle fuel. 
Bob


----------



## Parkerpusher (Nov 20, 2022)

395 is great for milling, I’m sure a clone is the same or at least similar. As mentioned previously, muffler mod is really all it needs. On a hot day the stock muffler can get hot enough to start melting the top cover. Run around 40/42:1 and tune the saw a touch rich and have fun


----------



## link (Nov 21, 2022)

andy at clover said:


> I use Canola or other cheap Veggie oil if I’m milling a bunch with the 3120.
> 
> It’s easy to go through a couple gallons of bar oil when slabbing a few big logs… I don’t want all that poison on my land…. It adds up.
> You’ve got to clean up your saw and mill though as Veggie oils can harden/gel up over time.
> ...


Nice bear, nice footage, and a pretty nice house too. I only have one garage and its so absolutely filled with stuff that I can barely park my car in it.


----------



## link (Nov 21, 2022)

If you have a rim sprocket clutch bell you might get hold of a 3/8LP rim at standard/large spline, along with a guide bar without a nose sprocket (Cannon, Stihl) and you can use the Stihl 3/8LP mill chain - its super narrow kerf combined with an ultimate longevity as for keeping the sharpness. You wont go back once you've tried it.


----------

