# Becoming an Arborist, Albany, NY



## HusqyStihl (May 1, 2015)

What are the first steps to take to get in the field (or tree)? Located South of Albany, been fellin, buckin, splittin & stackin. Where do i start? Anyone know in my area??

Any help greatly appreciated!!

Thanks, Moose


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## Pelorus (May 1, 2015)

Learn knots. 
Buy Jeff Jepson's "The Tree Climber's Companion"
Attend TCI Expo in Pittsburgh next November.


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## ShermanC (May 23, 2015)

Pelorus is on target. Learn safety to the hilt. Study this website and the website www.vertikal.net and register so you learn about access and cranes equipment. Find a mentor maybe through a small engine repair shop or the state forestry commission. If you can work part time in a small engine shop you'll learn a lot of mistakes amateurs make and you'll then be able to maintain your equipment to save money on repairs avoid breakdowns and work stoppages. on www.TCIA.org you can find member arborists by zip code. Apply to apprentice with them and learn all you can and pass it on. Soon you will mentor younger people. Keep in mind our industry nationwide has a frequency rate of 15 to 20 injured or killed per month and so there is no room for risk or taking chances.
I joined TCIA in 2008 when I could afford liability insurance and TCIA dues. I attended two EXPO's and wish I could afford to go to Pittsburgh this year. I am 74 and working closely with my ground man at succession planning for the business to continue should I not be able to keep going.

Our work day begins with a prayer, safety meeting, job briefing, do an EHAP and finally work. We do not smoke so that habit does not inflict my business. My opinion is tough; came from my father who smoked two packs a day and could only work with one hand but he didn't work outdoors. 
We work efficiently drink lots of water clean up thoroughly and watch each other's backs all day long. If we make a mistake we stop work and discuss what happened and why. We have never had an insurance claim nor serious injury.
I had a mentor in Florida for four years (1991-1995) and then did two more years apprenticeship starting my business with $800 in 1998. I have reinvested into equipment, paid my contract laborers equitably and have served 681 customers removing more than 4,400 trees since 1998. I haven't counted the pruning jobs, stumps ground or hours of leaf cleanup. Our region is sparsely populated so its difficult to justify doing this full time. We have other irons in the fire that provide income when tree work slows down or drops off.


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## HusqyStihl (May 23, 2015)

Pelorus said:


> Learn knots.
> Buy Jeff Jepson's "The Tree Climber's Companion"
> Attend TCI Expo in Pittsburgh next November.


 
Tree Huggers Companion already ordered. Thinkin about purchasing top quality full combo SRT and DDRT setups. Nothing in my area for any type of training except the arborist im constantly fixing his saws. I could prob work out some training with him for less than labor costs on saws.

Funny you should say November, ive lost my license for 1 year last October due to e medication giving me a seizure. I get it back in October so i may be able to make it down there somehow. Def not with my F250 5.4,, it would take me 5k$ in gas one way lol but it's def something i will look into.

I've asked this arborist to start as a groundie for his company but all he wants from me is repairing saws that apparently his groundies break DAILY so it keeps money coming in so i can't complain. Other thing is ive been getting job offers left and right from Laboreres Unions, Saw Shops, Heavy Equipment Operators so i don't know what the hell im gonna do now... Lots to think about...

Appreciate the info very much!!

~Moose


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## HusqyStihl (May 23, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Pelorus is on target. Learn safety to the hilt. Study this website and the website www.vertikal.net and register so you learn about access and cranes equipment. Find a mentor maybe through a small engine repair shop or the state forestry commission. If you can work part time in a small engine shop you'll learn a lot of mistakes amateurs make and you'll then be able to maintain your equipment to save money on repairs avoid breakdowns and work stoppages. on www.TCIA.org you can find member arborists by zip code. Apply to apprentice with them and learn all you can and pass it on. Soon you will mentor younger people. Keep in mind our industry nationwide has a frequency rate of 15 to 20 injured or killed per month and so there is no room for risk or taking chances.
> I joined TCIA in 2008 when I could afford liability insurance and TCIA dues. I attended two EXPO's and wish I could afford to go to Pittsburgh this year. I am 74 and working closely with my ground man at succession planning for the business to continue should I not be able to keep going.
> 
> Our work day begins with a prayer, safety meeting, job briefing, do an EHAP and finally work. We do not smoke so that habit does not inflict my business. My opinion is tough; came from my father who smoked two packs a day and could only work with one hand but he didn't work outdoors.
> ...


 

Ive been studying everything i can, I've got a bunch of PDF's of every type of climbing, I was volunteering for the local saw shop for months and they had me polishing lawnmowers, touched one chainsaw the entire time i was there. They beg me to come back every day im in there pickin up parts but who wouldnt want a employee that gets paid nothing to pressure wash new zero-turns??

I've been making a killing rebuilding and fixin up saws on my own. Love doing it also but when i went to volunteer, thats what i volunteered for but did everything but... Like i said, choices choices.... and at the present time, no license doesn't help either.


EDIT: Thank you so much for all the advice, will be taken into consideration and i'll study anything i can get my hands on. I'm even gonna ask this arborist to ask to just watch and learn for a couple days without pay. Just help out a little and watch technique and all...

Thanks- ~Moose


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Ive been studying everything i can, I've got a bunch of PDF's of every type of climbing, I was volunteering for the local saw shop for months and they had me polishing lawnmowers, touched one chainsaw the entire time i was there. They beg me to come back every day im in there pickin up parts but who wouldnt want a employee that gets paid nothing to pressure wash new zero-turns??
> 
> I've been making a killing rebuilding and fixin up saws on my own. Love doing it also but when i went to volunteer, thats what i volunteered for but did everything but... Like i said, choices choices.... and at the present time, no license doesn't help either.
> 
> ...


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

I am honored to help and I wish there were more young people like you wanting to work in our Industry. Don't sell yourself short for some people given the chance will take advantage of you. You will benefit in the long run by having several irons in the fire but be careful not to offend one source in favor of another. I have trained about 22 groundies since 1999. The common thread is safety and work efficiency. If I employ someone who doesn't understand how to think through a work process, understand the desired end result then work smart, work hard and get it done then I loose money. I am in this business to stay and by making a decent income I can fulfill the expenses debt and material costs. While I respect my fellow worker I maintain my position as an owner/operator and demand results. All this comes by being dependable, honest, sincere, communicating, and respecting the customer. I collect once a job is done...don't take money in advance because one bad situation can ruin your reputation. That all for now...must go exercise then go to Church.


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

Moose,
I looked up your community on my atlas. Your area looks like a bedroom community of the Albany metroplex. Without a driver's license you probably must find local jobs. If there is an equipment rental business near you try to get work in their shop so you can learn how equipment gets misused. Go to work early don't miss work unless you are too sick to work and don't be a clock watcher.
If you have a library or can tie in to the New York State Library system to borrow books about tree care. In16 years my library has grown to about 30-35 books on trees rubs and tree care. Don't overlook stump grinding as a trade or sideline because there will always be stumps to grind. I have two 13HP walk behind machines and I use Green #500 carbide teeth.


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## ATH (May 24, 2015)

I am going to be contrary to the other responses so far: The comments so far have been learning how to climb. Do you want people to hire you to just climb their trees or to take care of their trees?

The first thing you need to learn is trees. Learn to ID trees. Learn tree biology. Learn proper pruning cuts. Learn tree pests. You don't have to memorize them all right off the bat, but become familiar with all of the ANSI A-300 standards: http://tcia.org/business/ansi-a300-standards

You can do a LOT of good tree care from the ground. If you are trying to learn both climbing and pruning at the same time, you are probably going to sacrifice one or the other which either threatens your life or results in low quality work. "Low and slow" is how you learn to climb...I'd argue it should also be how you learn to prune/care for trees.

Not that the rest of the advice you have been given above isn't good advice...because it certainly is! I'm just saying you asked to be an arborist. Tree climbing is only one part of arboriculture and you can be an arborist without climbing a tree as much as you can be an arborist without ever doing root care or trunk injections for dutch elm disease, or planting trees, or utility clearance, etc, etc...


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

ATH said:


> I am going to be contrary to the other responses so far: The comments so far have been learning how to climb. Do you want people to hire you to just climb their trees or to take care of their trees?
> 
> The first thing you need to learn is trees. Learn to ID trees. Learn tree biology. Learn proper pruning cuts. Learn tree pests. You don't have to memorize them all right off the bat, but become familiar with all of the ANSI A-300 standards: http://tcia.org/business/ansi-a300-standards
> 
> ...


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

ATH OFFERED YOU SOME EXCELLENT ADVICE. 
Oops, gotta turn off caps. As time goes by and you become known for your knowledge skill and expertise, get ready for the common question I get here where I started and made my home since 1998:"are you still cutting trees." Be sure to read Alex Shigo's books...they're all good.
My ground man has six kids and they home school, farm 19 acres, operate a portable saw mill on the farm and play and sing folk music on stage. He is building a new house and pole barn. We are apprenticing the oldest son, 16, teaching him how to work as the grunt guy. Every lesson I put him through is recorded on my iPad Notes and from that we can see what we might teach him next time we work. Until he turns 18 we won't let him run any dangerous machine. With harness and lanyard on, he has been up in the lift basket with me to see what the work is like 46' up in my Niftylift. I climbed for seven years then fell 20' in 1999 and broke my right hip fracturing the pelvis. I had health insurance in force which paid 80% of the $46,000. In 2000 I worked every part time job I could find and paid back the $9,000 co-pay in 11 months. In 2001 one of my former customers bought a used Work Force telescoping lift to work on his barn and trees and we partnered for six years. Then he could not be here often enough to keep up with the work so I bought a used lift on eBay in 2008, hired a ground man and built the business steadily.


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## HusqyStihl (May 24, 2015)

ATH said:


> I am going to be contrary to the other responses so far: The comments so far have been learning how to climb. Do you want people to hire you to just climb their trees or to take care of their trees?
> 
> The first thing you need to learn is trees. Learn to ID trees. Learn tree biology. Learn proper pruning cuts. Learn tree pests. You don't have to memorize them all right off the bat, but become familiar with all of the ANSI A-300 standards: http://tcia.org/business/ansi-a300-standards
> 
> ...


 
I'll take any advice, close by me numerous friends are always askin me to drop remote trees, buck them up, that sort of thing. Ive been asked numerous times if i climb to take out alot of trees in a private community where there are VERY expensive summer homes and they were all built deep in woods and alot of trees need to be removed carefully. Ive been reading up on climbing recreationally and i know my way around a saw, but without the correct insurances and workers comp and everything else needed, i wouldn't even attempt such a thing let alone not having the experience with climbing, rigging, and everything in between. Thats why i asked to start as a groundy and go from there. The arborist (which doesn't seem to legit as i've seen his beat up equipment and frayed ropes piled up in the back of his truck) has asked me if i want to start climbing for him. To be honest, a voice tells me no way in hell. But the thought of doing things right and the safe way may be a new calling for me. I have no problem at all helping alot of people in my area by fixing their saws at almost half the rate of the local saw shops, which is one reason the saw shop wants me back. They have noticed my ability to repair and maintain saws and they know they are losing business to me so theyre dying to get me back but unfortunately i was only volunteering at their shop so why wouldnt they want me back ya know.. On my own i'm at least putting some money in my pockets. I will speak to them this coming week sometime about putting me on the payroll but not the books  and see what they say since they want me so badly and also repair saws on the side along with limited wood cutting services just to keep busy... Gotta say though, tree ID is pretty tough for me to grasp but working on it. So i guess you could say i have an idea of options of what i could do, just need to figure out where to start.



treetopguy2028 said:


> ATH OFFERED YOU SOME EXCELLENT ADVICE.
> Oops, gotta turn off caps. As time goes by and you become known for your knowledge skill and expertise, get ready for the common question I get here where I started and made my home since 1998:"are you still cutting trees." Be sure to read Alex Shigo's books...they're all good.
> My ground man has six kids and they home school, farm 19 acres, operate a portable saw mill on the farm and play and sing folk music on stage. He is building a new house and pole barn. We are apprenticing the oldest son, 16, teaching him how to work as the grunt guy. Every lesson I put him through is recorded on my iPad Notes and from that we can see what we might teach him next time we work. Until he turns 18 we won't let him run any dangerous machine. With harness and lanyard on, he has been up in the lift basket with me to see what the work is like 46' up in my Niftylift. I climbed for seven years then fell 20' in 1999 and broke my right hip fracturing the pelvis. I had health insurance in force which paid 80% of the $46,000. In 2000 I worked every part time job I could find and paid back the $9,000 co-pay in 11 months. In 2001 one of my former customers bought a used Work Force telescoping lift to work on his barn and trees and we partnered for six years. Then he could not be here often enough to keep up with the work so I bought a used lift on eBay in 2008, hired a ground man and built the business steadily.


 
Nice that you can pass the trade along, without this website i'd still be trying to figure out why the backwards chain on my fathers wildthing isn't cutting through 30" oak too well. And only being a short time member, i have learned ALOT of useful info. I don't have alot of money or assets besides a decent service bodied truck that i rebuilt from the ground up to put back on the road once cleared again to re-instate my license in october, but thats way past prime time for tree business i'd believe. Trying to find something i can learn from or apprentice and work hard during the summer just to keep in shape (mind and body) and decide from there which way i'd wanna go. Guess i just need to find the right teacher but no license makes everything so much harder. Ive had to decline 3 awesome job opportunities in the past weeks that could have become sound careers because my DL and CDL have been taken temporarily. Im SOL in alot of ways and the down time is killing me so i wanna figure something out to keep the knowledge coming in. This website really helps and everyday it surprises me on how helpful everyone on here really has been and continues to be.


I appreciate every last piece of feedback in this entire thread. I'm willing to look at every angle, read everything i can, and attempt to learn everything i can also before lifting one foot off the ground to start climbing...

Very much appreciated!! As always!!

~Moose


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## HusqyStihl (May 24, 2015)

Also, i guess i should have further explained, my reasoning for learning to climb would be specifically for tree removal only. Not maintenance or pruning. Maybe down the road i'd consider that type of work but the demand for removal is extreme around here and very short of good climbers


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

I'm back again Moose and I doubt I will let up. I trust other folks in our trade will give of themselves too.

When at all possible do not work alone Moose. Another pair of hands, set of eyes and ears and to call for help when troubles occur may save your life. The shortage of capable climber arborists seems to be nationwide. Gravity always rules and safety never runs out of our thinking range. Anyone who behaves like a smart aleck or know-it-all should be sent down the road packing. Electrocution kills half of those killed in our trade. Failing to plan work is largely a cause for other fatalities and injuries. I don't mean to be negative or morbid it's just a dangerous field of work.OSHA ranks it as the most dangerous.

The evolution of aerial lifts (access equipment) is making WAH (work at height) much safer and efficient but the basic cost can be higher than saddles and ropes. My equipment investment has reached $80,000 since 1998. About 80 to 90% of it has been bought used including my 2003 Niftylift TM40 bought in 2008. I've become a very skilled mechanic and electrical repairman for there are few repairmen in this rural area who know how such a machine operates. All I learned in schools through college has been so helpful for this business especially reading and writing. My degree is a bachelor of Science in business administration majoring in hotel and restaurant managementand minor in accounting. The first career of 36 years ended in 1989. This work now is like a second time around in life. I will always be indebted to F. Herbert Robertson my friend and brother in prayer who was a Certified Florida Forester who took the chance to show me his work. It didn't take long to get hooked on trees in 1991. I followed in his steps for four years and fashioned my apprenticeship that lasted six years before I earned any money for my work. I still learn and stay open to new thinking.

Since then I have felled 4,412 trees and only five went the wrong direction. Two trees damaged property which set me back $4,800 and taught me what an insurance subrogation is. Since I could afford liability insurance of $1,380 per year I have never had a claim.

Another book you should read is Tree Law Cases by Lew Bloch. Mine cost me $53 about seven years ago and has saved me about $50,000 in risk management.

For tree identification this website and www.linkedin.com can be helpful. George Symonds authored two good books printed in black on white for shrub and tree identification. The Audubon society publishes an excellent Field Guide to Tree Identification. I would like to think the New York Forestry Commission has published a book on NY trees. George Petrides has written several excellent Peterson Guides to Trees. Study all you can about permitting, waivers, insurance cleanup work, and how to build repeat customers. I keep a stack of books beside my recliner and am reading Delivering Knock your socks Off service by Kristen Andersen and Ron Zemke.

This is plenty for now.


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## HusqyStihl (May 24, 2015)

Hey by all means keep the info coming, any help is appreciated! Ive lost count of all the different books and references so i think im gonna go through the thread and write them all down. Found the Tree Climbers Companion in PDF form on google no problem and currently reading it as we speak. 

It gets a little overwhelming it seems with all the knowledge needed to safetly perform this type of work but i'll chip away at it slowly but surely. 

Alot, who have asked if i climb, just assume its a matter of climbing my azz up there and chopping up a tree. Even had a buddy who told me last night that he'd partner with me since hes been climbing trees since he was a kid (not pro climbing) zero PPE but i don't think he's sober these days and that doesn't work in my book. 

Ive heard (on other threads) that there may be equipment dealers that will let you test out gear including saddles. Let you dangle from them to test comfort, fitment.. etc. Im looking into this and have read and priced all kinds of equipment. Any recommendations on saddles, gear, extras? 

Btw, im 6'4" and about 225lbs if that decides anything. Boot size 15W. Think im too big to be looking into a decision like this?

And i was told today by my grandfather that a "logger" in no way qualifies for life insurance. Is this really true?? 

Again, appreciate everything!!

~Moose


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## HusqyStihl (May 24, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> When at all possible do not work alone Moose. Another pair of hands, set of eyes and ears and to call for help when troubles occur may save your life. QUOTE]
> 
> I refuse to work alone even when bucking/splitting firewood at home. Just today i went and purchased waterproof 2-way radios with all the high tech features, 52 mile range, NOA weather channels, Emergency alert options. And this is for communicating on site only. I didnt buy them to be 50+ miles away when needing help. I did find 2-way helmets but damn those things are expensive. Now i will carry these & my cellphone just because..


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Hey by all means keep the info coming, any help is appreciated! Ive lost count of all the different books and references so i think im gonna go through the thread and write them all down. Found the Tree Climbers Companion in PDF form on google no problem and currently reading it as we speak.
> 
> It gets a little overwhelming it seems with all the knowledge needed to safetly perform this type of work but i'll chip away at it slowly but surely.
> 
> ...


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## ShermanC (May 24, 2015)

This is gonna' sound mighty ignorant of me but it's true. In my seven years of climbing I only had a safety belt to tie in with. Herb told me not to wear boot gaffs if the tree deserves to be saved. I never had a climbing saddle so all I can recommend is to try on different kinds to see what works and read the product reviews. If you will exercise daily 20-30 minutes you can reduce your weight and you will sleep better...but for 6'4" I guess the weight is okay. I am 6'0", 168 lbs. and 74 years old. The muscles used up in the air include brains, arms hands and shoulders.

Our daily routine for work goes like this: prayers, tailgate safety, job briefing, EHAP, and finally work. The warm up takes about 15-20 minutes and we are safe fast workers. It is a real joy to have such outstanding team work. I have two other fill in ground guys when needed but they aren't always available. Sometimes getting a crew together is the hardest part of doing a job. Sometimes getting lift and outriggers set is anoth.

BTW, if you rent a lift make sure it has outriggers. Without them the risk increases by three or more times. I don't know anything about loggers (silviculture) and life insurance.we have a lot of loggers in the Ozarks.


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## tree lopper (May 25, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> I never had a climbing saddle


 Buy one, sir. I understand 'old school', but modern equipment makes climbing trees much easier. Also, it's well worth buying a mechanical prussik of some sort. Really, why do it hard at your age?

Moose, you've already been given heaps to do. I'd just say that if you've make good progress into doing those things: you've read, learned your knots and bought some equipment, that your local arborist might be keener to take you on rather than have competition. It might be worth letting him know you're going to either work for his customers or for him.


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

tree lopper said:


> Buy one, sir. I understand 'old school', but modern equipment makes climbing trees much easier. Also, it's well worth buying a mechanical prussik of some sort. Really, why do it hard at your age?
> 
> Moose, you've already been given heaps to do. I'd just say that if you've make good progress into doing those things: you've read, learned your knots and bought some equipment, that your local arborist might be keener to take you on rather than have competition. It might be worth letting him know you're going to either work for his customers or for him.


 
I've still got alot of homework set out for me but im trying to keep up. All great advice and its appreciated greatly.

One thing that stood out to me in the Tree Climbers Companion, was Brion Toss suggesting a 6 foot piece of rope to practice tying knots on the go... what would be the best kind/type of rope to buy a length of for this? I used to know many knots but i definitely wanna learn more and remember what i used to know. Can't practice enough!

And good suggestion about working for him or the customer, i like that


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## I'llbearealclimberoneday (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> One thing that stood out to me in the Tree Climbers Companion, was Brion Toss suggesting a 6 foot piece of rope to practice tying knots on the go... what would be the best kind/type of rope to buy a length of for this? I used to know many knots but i definitely wanna learn more and remember what i used to know. Can't practice enough!


I'd say 6' is good for learning knots, and a good start, but not quite enough for learning to use ropes. If that makes any sense.
Before I had any training, I learned the basic workings of DRT with 2 carbiners and a 50' piece of 1/2" climbing line sitting in my office chair. Hardware store rope is going to be much softer or not have the same core support that a climbing or rigging line has, making it harder to untie some knots and making friction hitches bind up worse. I made a loop with fish knots that simulated a harness. It had a figure 8 knot in the front to act as a bridge ring and a butterfly knot on both sides where the side "D's" would be, just that piece was probably 10'. I cut another section for a split tail hitch. I'd flip the rope through the door handle and tie in as if it were a real tree. Starting that way allows a lot of practice without having to wait on gear purchases.
If you know how the system works first hand, the first time you put a harness on and get your first climb, it should go smoother. And by smoother I mean its still going to be really awkward with a lot of rope fighting and sweating but not embarrassingly bad.
Watch videos. Lots of them. There are a lot of good climbers that have youtube channels now. Endurance and speed will come, but don't race it. Low and slow

Animatedknots.com and climbingarborist.com are great for learning the basics.

Your size shouldn't be much of an issue when you learn the limitations. I'm 6'5 and 205. The Reach helps
Oh, one more thing..... pull ups. Fitness plays a big role in climbing an tree work in general. Be strong enough to do it the hard way and smart enough to not have to


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

I'llbearealclimberoneday said:


> I'd say 6' is good for learning knots, and a good start, but not quite enough for learning to use ropes. If that makes any sense.
> Before I had any training, I learned the basic workings of DRT with 2 carbiners and a 50' piece of 1/2" climbing line sitting in my office chair. Hardware store rope is going to be much softer or not have the same core support that a climbing or rigging line has, making it harder to untie some knots and making friction hitches bind up worse. I made a loop with fish knots that simulated a harness. It had a figure 8 knot in the front to act as a bridge ring and a butterfly knot on both sides where the side "D's" would be, just that piece was probably 10'. I cut another section for a split tail hitch. I'd flip the rope through the door handle and tie in as if it were a real tree. Starting that way allows a lot of practice without having to wait on gear purchases.
> If you know how the system works first hand, the first time you put a harness on and get your first climb, it should go smoother. And by smoother I mean its still going to be really awkward with a lot of rope fighting and sweating but not embarrassingly bad.
> Watch videos. Lots of them. There are a lot of good climbers that have youtube channels now. Endurance and speed will come, but don't race it. Low and slow
> ...


 
Thats exactly what im talkin about, didnt think 6ft was enough and figured that just any kind of rope wouldn't do/dress right or hold the same.

Do you have any suggestions on what type or brand rope would be best? Maybe i should just order a full length climbing rope? Or other kind/brand rope/size?

I've never climbed, but have been getting in touch with local guys to see if i can start by just watching them for days. getting tips. I know the only way, well easier for me is to learn by doing.

Thanks for the tips, always appreciated!

~Moose


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## ATH (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> ....Do you have any suggestions on what type or brand rope would be best? Maybe i should just order a full length climbing rope? Or other kind/brand rope/size?....


I like the 16 and 24 strand ropes in the 1/2" range...something more to grab than 11mm. . I really like a tight eye spliced on one end. Don't add that to your first climb learning list...pay an extra $20 for the spliced rope.


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

Moose,
Some more good ideas have been put on your plates since yesterday. Be cautious about the arborist you are involved with because he might not be doing right in paying his groundies...a suspicion I have. Yes, as Brisbane suggested, you might be able to replace one or two of his groundies. A lot of our projects are done as a two-man crew and I'mtraining my guy to take over the business if and when I should stop due to age or health.

One of my favorite sayings is "Inspect what you expect". A competitor here once hired two brothers to workfor him cutting timber in the U.S. National Forest. Their earning had accumulated $1,000 but the boss said he couldn't pay them until the contract was completed. One of them came to work for me and the other waited to get paid. When the work was done the boss said he needed the money for repair of his truck...brushing them off with "I'll pay you after the next job we do". I not know if they ever got paid. Then my guy ran off with his girlfriend to get married and go work in a chicken processing plant. I wasted my time to train him and paid him daily as a contract laborer. Good help is tough to find in many types of businesses.


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Moose,
> Some more good ideas have been put on your plates since yesterday. Be cautious about the arborist you are involved with because he might not be doing right in paying his groundies...a suspicion I have. Yes, as Brisbane suggested, you might be able to replace one or two of his groundies. A lot of our projects are done as a two-man crew and I'mtraining my guy to take over the business if and when I should stop due to age or health.
> 
> One of my favorite sayings is "Inspect what you expect". A competitor here once hired two brothers to workfor him cutting timber in the U.S. National Forest. Their earning had accumulated $1,000 but the boss said he couldn't pay them until the contract was completed. One of them came to work for me and the other waited to get paid. When the work was done the boss said he needed the money for repair of his truck...brushing them off with "I'll pay you after the next job we do". I not know if they ever got paid. Then my guy ran off with his girlfriend to get married and go work in a chicken processing plant. I wasted my time to train him and paid him daily as a contract laborer. Good help is tough to find in many types of businesses.


 
I do have to say that this arborist always pays for my saw work and even keeps ahead on labor costs, on the other hand, i've never seen him working with the same groundies or even stop by with the same guy when picking up or dropping off his saws. Not sure how to take it as to wether he's running that big of an operation or going through groundies pretty fast. Always pulls out fist fulls of hundreds and pays all parts and a good chunk of labor to keep ahead.

Does live in a crappy area and leaves all his saws in the back of the truck in the "hood"... i asked him, "aren't you worried about getting everything stolen?", his answer was "everyone around here knows i'm crazier than they are and then pointed out a chit ton of cameras"  "they don't call me Crazy Krav for nothin"


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

ATH said:


> I like the 16 and 24 strand ropes in the 1/2" range...something more to grab than 11mm. . I really like a tight eye spliced on one end. Don't add that to your first climb learning list...pay an extra $20 for the spliced rope.


 
Any recommendation on any specific brands/names or rope? And recommended site sponsors to buy from? Links would be awesome, as i'm looking through alot of sites and there are soooo many options. If only i had a way to view everything in hand locally with a climber that knows his chit. I don't have a problem with buying a large length of rope just to cut up or use as practice tying knots.

Or even better, would you suggest any "Total Packages" i've seen as deals for pro climbing? Are these deals decent or is it better to piece together what a good climbing system would be. I'm sure everyone has their own specific opinions but if spending 1500-1800$ on one of these full SRT/DRT combo full packages is the best way to go...

I'd prefer not to start out with the "starter kit" just to find out that i need to drop almost twice the money in the near future to upgrade. And i definitely don't intend on buying anything used when my life is on the line literally..

Thanks ~Moose


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

http://wesspur.com/clearance/clearance-rope.html

this is what i'm currently checking out in regards to buying some lengths of rope to practice knots only with. and of course if needed around the shop... any suggestions? doesn't really say brand names that i've found yet. unless im completely oblivious and i just pulled this page up now so just startin to look into it

EDIT: duh, the brand names are right in the description. but what is top notch in this situation??


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

http://www.wesspur.com/climbing-kits/custom-climbing-kits.html

And if i was to go all out... i'd prefer to try this stuff on but nothing really local for options. Anything in here worth it? overpriced? lacking quality/quantity for price?

I'm sorry for all the questions, just very curious and i'd love to get started right away at just learning the basics of fitting everything together (not climbing right away), just to get a feel for where equipment needs to be, how it should feel, comfortability, i know there are threads about every last option of piece of equipment but it would take days to go through them all to get best opinions and it seems legit to purchase an entire kit all at once and then decide which pieces i'd be more inclined to replace or swap out after learning the basics.

that said, i do plan on spending alot of time with climbers as soon as i can find some, just to watch and gain more knowledge whenever possible. Kinda tough to do when everyone around here is begging for climbers...

I guess i should have titled this thread "Becoming a Climber"


Thanks

~Moose


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

If you can go to a isa climbing seminar or find a local ctsp your better off starting on a firm foundation and yes you will learn more as you go but better to go from correct footing!


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

As far as rope it will depend on many factors ie srt drt that's why going to a seminar is cost effective! The instructor at these events is almost always well versed in all styles and can usually tell you the good bad and ugly of gear! I myself will be switching to a srt rope wrench chest acender rope walker and hasss!


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

I will be researching and going to any type of seminar i can find in my area, and also out of area if needed or can't find anything close-by. The more knowledge and info i can hear/find, the better.

The rope i was referring to is just some lengths to practice all types of knots before leaving the ground. I was just asking which type/brand rope would be appropriate to order in a 50 or 100ft length of 1/2" to cut up and use as strictly practice rope for this reason..

Any and all help is always appreciated sir!

EDIT: most likely i will be looking at DRT/Spur climbing system for tree removal only at this time..


Thanks, ~Moose


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> I will be researching and going to any type of seminar i can find in my area, and also out of area if needed or can't find anything close-by. The more knowledge and info i can hear/find, the better.
> 
> The rope i was referring to is just some lengths to practice all types of knots before leaving the ground. I was just asking which type/brand rope would be appropriate to order in a 50 or 100ft length of 1/2" to cut up and use as strictly practice rope for this reason..
> 
> ...


If you plan to climb on it buy the best you can afford and if drt u will need 200 foot hank because running out of rope mid tree is no fun  Buy you the tree climbers companion this is not a learn through trial and error thing just sayin!


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

Now if you really want to be an arborist start learning soil and water relations, prescription fertilization,taxonomy,ipm the list is forever and then more lol


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

ropensaddle said:


> If you plan to climb on it buy the best you can afford and if drt u will need 200 foot hank because running out of rope mid tree is no fun  Buy you the tree climbers companion this is not a learn through trial and error thing just sayin!


 
Found the Tree Climbers Companion free PDF on google and have read it twice so far, hence the reference in there about Mr Brion Toss? suggesting a length of rope to carry around to practice tying knots. I've also got a hard copy on the way


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

ropensaddle said:


> Now if you really want to be an arborist start learning soil and water relations, prescription fertilization,taxonomy,ipm the list is forever and then more lol


 
I've found this out lol, its mind boggling the amount of info one needs to know. I can see now why losing one good arborist to a fatality with all the knowledge in that persons head is so so tragic


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> http://www.wesspur.com/climbing-kits/custom-climbing-kits.html
> 
> And if i was to go all out... i'd prefer to try this stuff on but nothing really local for options. Anything in here worth it? overpriced? lacking quality/quantity for price?
> 
> ...


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> I've found this out lol, its mind boggling the amount of info one needs to know. I can see now why losing one good arborist to a fatality with all the knowledge in that persons head is so so tragic


Thats why we have young prospects like you to take our place  as far as just knot tying on the ground not aloft use anything its not going to matter on the ground. If your meaning aloft get what you plan to use!


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

Yes,yes, yes...lots of questions, lots of knowledgeable guys and gals who want to help newcomers get into the trade safely and yes...many different products and techniques. An excellent pocketbook is Thomas Glover's POCKET REF, 3rd edition published by Sequioia Publishing in Littleton, Colorado. It sells for about $12.00 and is worth about 200 times that including the knot section. I wrote them last year with suggestions for improving the next edition. The book is also a great gift idea for doer's and thinker's. PM me your address and I'll mail you one as a contribution to your career goal.

Although I've been at this trade for 23 years and I have been through three apprenticeships in other trades since 1953 I have not sought certification in arboriculture. At age 74 I must Consider fixed costs for these priorities: TCIA dues, liability insurance, vehicle insurance and weekly advertising...$3,500 to $3,700 per year. Contrast that to 25-45 tree jobs worked per year. Much of our work is repeat business so what comes in goes out and there's scarcely $ left for more expense. The weather we have in the ridges and hollows of the Ozarks makes it difficult to justify the costs of certification and accreditation. Two train trips to TCIA Expos in Milwaukee and Pittsburgh were well worth the cost. I may have spent more than what certification would now cost. So at this point we are doing all we can in view of weather and market demand...certification would not give us an upper hand on the business. Our upper hand is achieved by carefully respectfully delivering great service and constantly studying to "unleash the power of continuous improvement" (sub-title of the book Just-In-Time by William A. Sandra's, Jr.). In large metro areas where population and number of households per square mile is greater the reasons would likely change, at least to start with ISA certification then CTSP. Rome was not built in one day...it took two.


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

ropensaddle said:


> Thats why we have young prospects like you to take our place  as far as just knot tying on the ground not aloft use anything its not going to matter on the ground. If your meaning aloft get what you plan to use!


 
34 years living in this area and honestly i've never seen a local climber anywhere, i'm just starting to get questions about wether i climb but they questions keep coming. I keep wondering if there are any climbers anywhere around me, there's gotta be but maybe i just don't look up often enough


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Yes,yes, yes...lots of questions, lots of knowledgeable guys and gals who want to help newcomers get into the trade safely and yes...many different products and techniques. An excellent pocketbook is Thomas Glover's POCKET REF, 3rd edition published by Sequioia Publishing in Littleton, Colorado. It sells for about $12.00 and is worth about 200 times that including the knot section. I wrote them last year with suggestions for improving the next edition. The book is also a great gift idea for doer's and thinker's. PM me your address and I'll mail you one as a contribution to your career goal.
> 
> Although I've been at this trade for 23 years and I have been through three apprenticeships in other trades since 1953 I have not sought certification in arboriculture. At age 74 I must Consider fixed costs for these priorities: TCIA dues, liability insurance, vehicle insurance and weekly advertising...$3,500 to $3,700 per year. Contrast that to 25-45 tree jobs worked per year. Much of our work is repeat business so what comes in goes out and there's scarcely $ left for more expense. The weather we have in the ridges and hollows of the Ozarks makes it difficult to justify the costs of certification and accreditation. Two train trips to TCIA Expos in Milwaukee and Pittsburgh were well worth the cost. I may have spent more than what certification would now cost. So at this point we are doing all we can in view of weather and market demand...certification would not give us an upper hand on the business. Our upper hand is achieved by carefully respectfully delivering great service and constantly studying to "unleash the power of continuous improvement" (sub-title of the book Just-In-Time by William A. Sandra's, Jr.). In large metro areas where population and number of households per square mile is greater the reasons would likely change, at least to start with ISA certification then CTSP. Rome was not built in one day...it took two.


 
PM sent! Very appreciated Sir!!!

~Moose


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

Well that was easy! $15 bucks and i am now a pro and can climb any tree or perform any service needed!! No further edjumacation needed, thanks for the help, i'll see y'all over on the "I know everything" thread 

EDIT: i'm being sarcastic, just in case, thought i should add that lol


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> View attachment 426957
> 
> 
> Well that was easy! $15 bucks and i am now a pro and can climb any tree or perform any service needed!! No further edjumacation needed, thanks for the help, i'll see y'all over on the "I know everything" thread
> ...


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

The best humor is to laugh at yourself. The older I get the more often this happens.

Not funny was the death of a climbing arborist a week or so ago in southern New Jersey. The 47 year old had tied in securely above his target limb 26' long, 2' diameter. After he made his three-cut maneuver the target limb caused the limb he was tied in to to snap at the trunk so he fell 30' with the two limbs. He was crushed to death by limb he tied in to. When I read the report on the Internet from TCIA, I wondered if he did shorter cuts in smaller weight increments. The description of the accident did not indicate this. A well respected business man, family member and deacon of his Church this death has a huge ripple effect beyond that of the tree care industry.

Three weeks ago in W. Fargo, North Dakota a roofing crew had two rented tell-handlers with forks putting up 90-lb. bundles of shingles at a three-story apartment building. Although they machines had outriggers the soil was soft from construction work. Chad miller, 25, rode a pallet up but an outrigger went through soft ground. The machine went over throwing Chad into the other machine nearby. He was medical-vac'd to a hospital with critical injuries. The accident is on the web site www.vertikal.net. Why he was allowed or required to ride that pallet beats me. Roofers, like loggers, have difficulty finding insurance coverage.


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## HusqyStihl (May 25, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> The best humor is to laugh at yourself. The older I get the more often this happens.
> 
> Not funny was the death of a climbing arborist a week or so ago in southern New Jersey. The 47 year old had tied in securely above his target limb 26' long, 2' diameter. After he made his three-cut maneuver the target limb caused the limb he was tied in to to snap at the trunk so he fell 30' with the two limbs. He was crushed to death by limb he tied in to. When I read the report on the Internet from TCIA, I wondered if he did shorter cuts in smaller weight increments. The description of the accident did not indicate this. A well respected business man, family member and deacon of his Church this death has a huge ripple effect beyond that of the tree care industry.
> 
> Three weeks ago in W. Fargo, North Dakota a roofing crew had two rented tell-handlers with forks putting up 90-lb. bundles of shingles at a three-story apartment building. Although they machines had outriggers the soil was soft from construction work. Chad miller, 25, rode a pallet up but an outrigger went through soft ground. The machine went over throwing Chad into the other machine nearby. He was medical-vac'd to a hospital with critical injuries. The accident is on the web site www.vertikal.net. Why he was allowed or required to ride that pallet beats me. Roofers, like loggers, have difficulty finding insurance coverage.


 
I hate hearing of accidents, especially if there might have been something different being done to prevent them. I spent 10 years as a railroader and i'm all about safety. I'm full dressed PPE head to toe even in 90+ degree weather just bucking firewood at home. I've worked plenty of Heavy Equipment, drove locomotives and have never once had an incident on any job, always a perfectly clean safety record, and i plan to keep it that way if i can. Funny you should mention insurance, just yesterday my grandfather mentioned to me that being a logger that i would not be eligible for life insurance at all. Really?? He mentioned calling himself something else to obtain it but i forgot what he said, landscaper maybe? I wouldn't be concerned personally if i didn't have a 7 year old son to think about and his mother who is putting herself down a very bad path of addiction and its getting to the point where CPS is now involved. My son is being neglected and i feel as though a different career path may make me more successful and get me back (or close to) making the $125k i used to make years back but this time doing something im interested in.

"If ya find something you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life"

I've yet to climb but i hope one day soon enough i will be closer to the heavens and feel the wind in my face knowing i accomplished and mastered something that appeals to me


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

My experience of lift work WAH is 14 years long. I like to call it dancing on the limbs. I know my Niftylift so well thatI an usually get a tree worked in one set of the equipment.Visit the website www.niftylift.com, select trailer mounted lifts and select the TM40. Minewas one of 29 units built in England for Nations Rents. It is a 2003 version, is petrol powered/hydraulic and I found it on eBay in february 2008. I bought it from a farmer-dentist in eastern Oklahoma and arrived home four hours before our town was hit by a tornado. We were lucky to be free of damage. It runs off a Kohler 6HP Command Pro engine that I have gone through completely.

A friend I recruited into TCIA about five years ago is Paul Worman to the north 52 miles has Clean Cut Tree Service working with his step dad and brother. They recently ordered an 83' All Access tracked lift from Italy. It has tremendous features and will be the first unit in the U.S. They'll haul and store it in a gooseneck 20' aluminum trailer being built by Aluminum Trailer Comapny in northern Indiana. Total investment $153K. I dream of having a 70' reach but I am wise enough not to incur new debt in this tight uncertain soft lousy economy.

A great asset for you as an arborist will be able to serve customers as a climber and a lift arborist. Its like having two pistols to draw with in a western movie. I have no idea what your forests look like so I can't relate to your geography. The elevation of the Ozarks are not high enough to be classified as mountains, just Ozarks found in Arkansas, Missouri, southern Illinois, southeastern Kansas and eastern Oklahoma. Our state has 214 species of trees in six climatological growing zones: Ouachita Mountains, Ozarks, Louisiana swamp Region on the south border, high plain south of Little Rock, Crowley's Ridge from Paragould to Pine Bluff and lastly the Mississippi delta.


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## jefflovstrom (May 25, 2015)

really? 
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

jefflovstrom said:


> really?
> Jeff


Brawhahhahhah lol


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## ShermanC (May 25, 2015)

When you reach a


HusqyStihl said:


> I hate hearing of accidents, especially if there might have been something different being done to prevent them. I spent 10 years as a railroader and i'm all about safety. I'm full dressed PPE head to toe even in 90+ degree weather just bucking firewood at home. I've worked plenty of Heavy Equipment, drove locomotives and have never once had an incident on any job, always a perfectly clean safety record, and i plan to keep it that way if i can. Funny you should mention insurance, just yesterday my grandfather mentioned to me that being a logger that i would not be eligible for life insurance at all. Really?? He mentioned calling himself something else to obtain it but i forgot what he said, landscaper maybe? I wouldn't be concerned personally if i didn't have a 7 year old son to think about and his mother who is putting herself down a very bad path of addiction and its getting to the point where CPS is now involved. My son is being neglected and i feel as though a different career path may make me more successful and get me back (or close to) making the $125k i used to make years back but this time doing something im interested in.
> 
> "If ya find something you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life"
> 
> I've yet to climb but i hope one day soon enough i will be closer to the heavens and feel the wind in my face knowing i accomplished and mastered something that appeals to me


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## ropensaddle (May 25, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> 34 years living in this area and honestly i've never seen a local climber anywhere, i'm just starting to get questions about wether i climb but they questions keep coming. I keep wondering if there are any climbers anywhere around me, there's gotta be but maybe i just don't look up often enough


Get in your phone book look up tree services then look at credentials etc is there CA CSTP BCMA on staff if so call tell them your interested in learning safe climbing skils. When I started there were no where near the options youth have now. I basically learned the hard way and though I have been safe 33 years I have wore my body quite a bit by inefficient use of my lovely physique lol  Btw getting a job with them could never hurt and you would be worlds ahead in learning at such a place!


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## ATH (May 26, 2015)

Back to ropes:
You linked Wesspur's clearance ropes. They have a 100' length of Tachyon for $80. I have that and like it. They will put a spliced eye on it for you. How high do you expect you will be climbing. If never of 50 for your first year or so, then this is a great rope. I actually like having 2 ropes in the truck...one just over 100' and another that is around 200'. I don't need that long one too often. Having the shorter one as the "every day" rope does 2 things:
1) cheaper to replace
2) easier to move (for example, if I want to bring the whole thing over a limb...and my TIP is only 40' up, it is nice to not have to pull an extra 100' of rope just because)...it is also lighter to carry.

If you want a longer length, I think that rope is a nice rope to get. Sherrill's Lava is the same thing. 10% off sale on those right now until the end of the month.

I have a Yale BlueMoon that I like...I think I like that better than the XTC...not sure why - maybe just because it is spliced and the XTC is not. I'd use the XTC rope again if was a significantly better price... I am pretty sure Sherrill's Poison Ivy is BlueMoon made for Sherrill.

I've also used Samson ArborMaster. Not bad, but a little stiffer than the others I have used. I'd use any of the others before using that again...but it wasn't miserable.

As for site sponsors who I buy from: Sherrill, Wesspur, Bailey's and TreeStuff. Probably prefer Sherrill and TreeStuff only because their orders arrive quicker because they are closer. Wesspur and Bailey's ship it right out, just takes UPS about 2-3 days longer to get it here than the other two.

I would not buy a "kit" unless it has only things you want, and it is significantly cheaper than buying the separate. There may be one or two things that you buy in the kit but will not use...that eats up the savings versus buying individual parts.


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

ATH said:


> I would not buy a "kit" unless it has only things you want, and it is significantly cheaper than buying the separate. There may be one or two things that you buy in the kit but will not use...that eats up the savings versus buying individual parts.


 
Everything you wrote about was awesome, exactly what i was asking about. Thank you! Appreciated!!

About you saying "no" to the kit, ive been pricing both kits and buying everything seperate. Seperately it seems like i'd round out to around $2000 bucks, the individual pricing is unbelievable. And being new to climbing i almost wish there was a list of basic tools/ropes/saddle types/biners... etc. Ive read the Tree Climbers Companion multiple times and most of the gear listed i wouldn't be using while first learning to dangle in the trees and throw feces 

Attempting to put together a full climbing outfit on my own is killing me, i hit a couple sites, sign up, start loading the shopping cart and it seems after 2 or 3 items seperately im already up past or close to $1000 bucks. GD! Am i doing something wrong? by the time i grab everything i'll be broke. Thats why he kits seem optional because i get this warm fuzzy feeling that i'm buying Pro gear, SAFE gear, and everything i need. Money is no option when it comes to safety for me. I will wait if it costs me that much but i'm eager to start. Figured i'd go with the best Pro outfit kit, then go for the trees. Then maybe change out parts and pieces. I know you say its throwing away money, but when i search for everything (and i admit i have very little knowledge of what i need) those kits really look worth it even if i have to change something.

I thank you again for rope suggestions, i've written everything you've said down. Im thankful for your opions so i can narrow down my search a little.

I'm looking to spend around $1200+/- and get everything i want ya know...

Thanks ~Moose


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

When you reach a


HusqyStihl said:


> I hate hearing of accidents, especially if there might have been something different being done to prevent them. I spent 10 years as a railroader and i'm all about safety. I'm full dressed PPE head to toe even in 90+ degree weather just bucking firewood at home. I've worked plenty of Heavy Equipment, drove locomotives and have never once had an incident on any job, always a perfectly clean safety record, and i plan to keep it that way if i can. Funny you should mention insurance, just yesterday my grandfather mentioned to me that being a logger that i would not be eligible for life insurance at all. Really?? He mentioned calling himself something else to obtain it but i forgot what he said, landscaper maybe? I wouldn't be concerned personally if i didn't have a 7 year old son to think about and his mother who is putting herself down a very bad path of addiction and its getting to the point where CPS is now involved. My son is being neglected and i feel as though a different career path may make me more successful and get me back (or close to) making the $125k i used to make years back but this time doing something im interested in.
> 
> "If ya find something you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life"
> 
> I've yet to climb but i hope one day soon enough i will be closer to the heavens and feel the wind in my face knowing i accomplished and mastered something that appeals to me


point where you want to get liability insurance


HusqyStihl said:


> Everything you wrote about was awesome, exactly what i was asking about. Thank you! Appreciated!!
> 
> About you saying "no" to the kit, ive been pricing both kits and buying everything seperate. Seperately it seems like i'd round out to around $2000 bucks, the individual pricing is unbelievable. And being new to climbing i almost wish there was a list of basic tools/ropes/saddle types/biners... etc. Ive read the Tree Climbers Companion multiple times and most of the gear listed i wouldn't be using while first learning to dangle in the trees and throw feces
> 
> ...





treetopguy2028 said:


> When you reach a


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Ive lost everything in my life due to medical conditions so im banking around $2000 bucks to build a life back together. Climbers needed severely and with that money im thinking i can build from there buying the right equipment and learning everything i need to know to be on the call list locally when a tree needs removal. Even though ive never climbed, ive got people around begging me to do so, and i want to do it. I think it would be a huge chance that only comes around once in a while, and i should grab it now. Chainsaw repair/maintanence/mods on the side, i think i can start a living, and im looking forward to being "the" guy to call!


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Im far from being able to purchase any kind of insurance. But theres no reason to buy it unless im climbing. I will when i can afford it for sure though


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

I started to write last night about reaching a point of buying liability insurance. I held back to see what others offered as advice. This insurance coverage will ease your mind and make you plan your work better for every tree, every customer and every collection for work well done. When I got started in 1998 others told me to expect to pay $2,500 a year so I waited listened and studied choosing an independent broker rather than an agent. The broker searched and found Med James Insurance Co. which has cost me $1,380 a year. Some years when cash flow was tight I had to finance the premium in six monthly payments; financing cost was $57 more. I have never had a claim but the industry statistics get worse ut they don't raise my premium rate. A good record stands up for itself.

On buying equipment eBay is a tremendous resource if you examine a seller's feedback ratings, put auctions on Watch, study comparable offerings and shop carefully. I have 100% Positive Feedback on 210 auctions the largest and most difficult was to sell a 1960 vintage Rolls Royce salon right hand drive in show room new condition for $29,000. I could write a book on the unique auctions I have done. For clients I charge the listing fee and a commission. If they balk at my rates I just tell them "look at my sales record and what I've sold" and if you want your item sold this will be my terms or you can struggle with doing it yourself just like tree work"! I've had a few loser items that wouldn't sell but I still charged my client for the preparation time and listing cost.

On eBay I bought my Stihl 066 Magnum from an arborist in Iowa who fell off a warehouse walkin refrigerator and injured his back. His sideline was working trees with his son. I also bought an Echo CBS-8000 from a seller who tried using it three times and couldn't handle the 32 pounds loaded weight. It is an excellent trouble free machine.mi currently has 14 saws and do my own maintenance. The newest is Tanaka's ergonomic 12" top handle li bing aw from Northern Tool. It and a Stihl MS200T are the workhorses for much of our cutting. Then I jump up to a Tanaka 14" top handle and a 12 year old Echo CS-5000 I bought new that is trouble free. My third big saw is a Stihl MS 460 Magnum bought new five years ago. My pole saws include Stihl HT101, Shindaiwa and Echo PPT-260.if I erred on model numbers overlook it. I'm going back to bed for more sleep.


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Ive got many of homeowner type saws that i modify and beginning to feel the big differences in CC ranges. Slowly workin my way up on my own saws. Always a pleasure to rebuild or service a pro saw and play in the wood with it for a bit though


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Im far from being able to purchase any kind of insurance. But theres no reason to buy it unless im climbing. I will when i can afford it for sure though


Moose,
Until you can afford liability insurance do a risk management assessment. After you can afford insurance still do risk assessments. Be reasonable to decline work that shows to be high risk especially property damage for customer and neighbors. Be frank and honest when you turn a job down by saying "this job has risks that I am not yet insured to perform." You might be comfortable to refer the customer to another tree service but you'd want to be sure they are insured and capable. The job is not yours until you get the job. The job is the customer's and they must handle and choose the solution without contractor interference (taken from lew Bloch's book Tree Law Cases).

This year on www.linkedin.com several of us have had a long running debate about doing estimates for free or for fees. The discussion has made me smarter and saved me time, asking callers to email me photos of what they want done. Not every job deserves a qualified professional arborist....just a back hoe, track hoe or bulldozer. In these parts trees are allowed to grow and get in the way until they present themselves as a nuisance or danger. I have taken down 16 giants and the highest bill was $5,300 where we were on site 22 days out of a span of 62 calendar days. To save the customer's lawn we had to rope drop everything until I hired a crane truck to pick the twin trunks and set them on a huge trailer. The stump base was 9' diameter and took 13 hours to grind with my Husqvarna SG-13. It made me strong while being worn out.


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

At this point i will only take jobs that have ZERO risk of property damage. Hence why i want to learn more and start climbing, then rigging. One foot in front of the other. I wanna do it safe, there's enough risks in just basic firewood bucking and splitting. I have a long way to go before i take any jobs that will involve some risk. Im learning, slowly but surely!


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> At this point i will only take jobs that have ZERO risk of property damage. Hence why i want to learn more and start climbing, then rigging. One foot in front of the other. I wanna do it safe, there's enough risks in just basic firewood bucking and splitting. I have a long way to go before i take any jobs that will involve some risk. Im learning, slowly but surely!


Moose,
Your philosophy plan should work and your ten years in transportation with their intense safety practices will benefit you. In my case I had three years experience in airline catering first at two flight kitchens in Albuquerque, NM (my home town) then a year and a half with ContinentalAir Lines at their Denver flight kitchen being laid off in January 1970. One year later I was hired as manager of food service for a contract caterer providing cafeteria foodservicefive days a week at the Denver Federal Center. Our workers comp carrier Liberty Mutual Insurance conducted a six week class on recognizing unsafe conditions and preventing accidents. That contract ran out and was not renewed so I found work as an assistant manager in department store foodservice with six operations the largest of which was an aged 550 seat Tea Room. The average daily volume of the Tea Room was 1,800 lunches a day served. 
The store chain of ten stores was owned by Associated Dry Goods of NYC so we were not on our own flight plan. Three months later my boss resigned and I asked for a chance at the top job. In my four years of work I added four more restaurants then got laid off along with 16 other executives. I went through divorce by a cheating wife, accepted Jesus as my Savior and shifted gears to management consulting. My first and largest client was the National Park Service at Yellowstone NP serving two concession management specialists. Our study was to find out what is, what can be and what should be the concessions management contracting standards for all national parks. Yellowstone is the largest and one of the most difficult parks to operate in and had the greatest number of written complaints. We were there seven months (march through September 1976) and I was called back two years later to review their changes based upon our recommendations. I recommended a change of contractors. I would love to go back now and see how Zantera operates it in view of immigration policy changes, the Internet, cell phones, etc. This year one of my friends is there to recondition the boiler plant at Mammoth Springs where park headquarters are situated on the north end of the figure eight road system.
I mentioned the author Alex Shigo so I am sending you his book 100 Tree Myths. Digest it well and you'll begin to "read the wood through the bark". As I was taught touch every tree you estimate....something special happens by doing that.

Time to go exercise walking laps in walmart and doing arm exercises while I walk 20-30 minutes daily.

Later...


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## HuskStihl (May 26, 2015)

Why do they call you Moose? You look tiny in u'r avatar pic.


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Long story really. A guy (my second father i call him) was an outrageous machine. In every way he was a badazz biker. He would literally get drunk and take on as many of us younger teens in a fight and he'd beat the hell out of all of us. It was all in good fun and thats how we grew up. Small town, lotta wanna be thugs, we used to just fight in numbers. Weve had a party i remember when i was young, two towns, 150 vs 150 people. And we just beat eachother silly scrappin and drinkin. My parents have always called me "Seamus" (Gaelic for James, my real name) pronounced Shay-muss. That guy, old Mr. P died from a motorcycle accident in our teens but always remained a role model lol. Well that second father always took me on to beat ass cause i was the biggest of all of us growing up. 6'4" 339lbs at one point doing steroids and jacked as all hell. He used to get drunk and scream "Shay-moose!", from there, all my closest friends call me Moose.

RIP Mr P!
~Moose


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Long story really. A guy (my second father i call him) was an outrageous machine. In every way he was a badazz biker. He would literally get drunk and take on as many of us younger teens in a fight and he'd beat the hell out of all of us. It was all in good fun and thats how we grew up. Small town, lotta wanna be thugs, we used to just fight in numbers. Weve had a party i remember when i was young, two towns, 150 vs 150 people. And we just beat eachother silly scrappin and drinkin. My parents have always called me "Seamus" (Gaelic for James, my real name) pronounced Shay-muss. That guy, old Mr. P died from a motorcycle accident in our teens but always remained a role model lol. Well that second father always took me on to beat ass cause i was the biggest of all of us growing up. 6'4" 339lbs at one point doing steroids and jacked as all hell. He used to get drunk and scream "Shay-moose!", from there, all my closest friends call me Moose.
> 
> RIP Mr P!
> ~Moose


Great story...should be saved for a book about your life! LOL


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## HuskStihl (May 26, 2015)

I remember being 6'4" and 340. Eighth grade was a blast!


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> I remember being 6'4" and 340. Eighth grade was a blast!


 

Im still 6'4 but ive managed to lean out to 225-230 or so. Soon to be back in the gym


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## ropensaddle (May 26, 2015)

Why do I feel like a midget here lol


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## I'llbearealclimberoneday (May 26, 2015)

If I wanted to learn about climbing first hand and wad in New York, the first person I would approach about being hired for training is with out a doubt...........


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Wow, i've got a long way before i'd ever even be able to consider that type of... I'm not even sure to call it climbing... spiderman sh1t right there! Unbelievable!


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## ATH (May 26, 2015)

[QUOTE="HusqyStihl, post: 5379555, member: 129517"....
About you saying "no" to the kit, ive been pricing both kits and buying everything seperate. Seperately it seems like i'd round out to around $2000 bucks, the individual pricing is unbelievable. And being new to climbing i almost wish there was a list of basic tools/ropes/saddle types/biners... etc. Ive read the Tree Climbers Companion multiple times and most of the gear listed i wouldn't be using while first learning to dangle in the trees and throw feces 
.....[/QUOTE]
If a kit has everything you want and not too much that you don't, then by all means, get a kit. My point was if you are buying things in a kit that you don't want then there may be no savings... Nothing against the idea if it works!


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Wow, i've got a long way before i'd ever even be able to consider that type of... I'm not even sure to call it climbing... spiderman sh1t right there! Unbelievable!


Hey Moose,
What chance exists to hire on at a golf course in grounds keeping? Granted the work might be very seasonal but the experience and chances to climb might be favorable. Then for winter employment work in a small engine shop on snow blowers ATV's snowmobiles and chainsaws.


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## Black Dogg (May 26, 2015)

Moose,

I got into climbing and tree care last year. So far I've done ten removals for friends/family. All really good advice here so far, I've been reading and learning right along.
I bought Wesspur's Entry-Level Combo Kit (see here: http://www.wesspur.com/climbing-kits/entry-level-combo-tree-climbing-kit.html ) and have been very happy with it. I made a few changes when I placed the order:
I got a better saddle (Ergovation Economy) than they have with the kit; a friend who's been climbing for thirty years told me to get the best saddle I could afford to be more comfortable. The Ergo has nice padding and is adjustable over a wide range, also a good amount of gear loops.
I switched the climbing rope to Arbormaster Bigfoot ( http://www.wesspur.com/items/bf15.html ) and am very happy with it. It works well with a Blake's Hitch and now with a VT and pulley. 
They give a discount on hand saws and safety gear when you buy it at the same time as the kit and I took advantage of that. I got a Pacific Kevlar helmet, a dozen Atlas gloves (they give EXCELLENT grip on rope!!) and a Samurai HD handsaw.
I also got a rope for rigging ( http://www.wesspur.com/items/sb1215.html ), a block ( CMI 5/8 stainless steel) and port-a-wrap. I made the whoopie and loopie slings myself from Tenex TEC per instructions from Samson.
After buying a few more odds and ends this year I'm up to a little over $ 2,000 in gear, but I always think that it's better to buy the right stuff once instead of going for cheap and then upgrading later, especially where I'm putting my life on the line.
One item I would not be without is a GOOD FIRST AID KIT!!!! Also First Aid/ CPR training !!
Since you're in my neck of the woods you might want to look into the Trained Logger Certification that Cornell Coop. Ext. does in NY. It is geared more towards logging but there are plenty of CE courses that are of interest to arborists as well. I took one last year on invasive species management that was a real eye opener. The courses are not expensive and most times they buy lunch . More info here: http://www.newyorkloggertraining.org .

Good Luck and climb safe!!


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## HusqyStihl (May 26, 2015)

Black Dogg said:


> Moose,
> 
> I got into climbing and tree care last year. So far I've done ten removals for friends/family. All really good advice here so far, I've been reading and learning right along.
> I bought Wesspur's Entry-Level Combo Kit (see here: http://www.wesspur.com/climbing-kits/entry-level-combo-tree-climbing-kit.html ) and have been very happy with it. I made a few changes when I placed the order:
> ...


 

Wow, thanks for specifically giving me options to choose from, i will be sure to check them all out as soon as i can. Unfortunately i've been bucking and splitting wood alll damn day and wiped out! Its gonna be an early night for me and busy morning tomorrow. But i will research all of the gear you pointed out! Thanks for your input! Very much appreciated!

~Moose








treetopguy2028 said:


> Hey Moose,
> What chance exists to hire on at a golf course in grounds keeping? Granted the work might be very seasonal but the experience and chances to climb might be favorable. Then for winter employment work in a small engine shop on snow blowers ATV's snowmobiles and chainsaws.


 
I was recently volunteering at the local small engine repair shop close to my town, repairing all types of power equipment from chainsaws, and everything you mentioned, to big old tractors, backhoes, skidsteers you name it. They want me back fulltime ASAP but without and income from that source, whats the point. Ive got a son to support and im sure any place loves free quality workers. Thats why i'm looking into the climbing knowledge and maybe stepping into the trade to make some $$ around here where climbers are scarce.


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## ShermanC (May 26, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Wow, thanks for specifically giving me options to choose from, i will be sure to check them all out as soon as i can. Unfortunately i've been bucking and splitting wood alll damn day and wiped out! Its gonna be an early night for me and busy morning tomorrow. But i will research all of the gear you pointed out! Thanks for your input! Very much appreciated!
> 
> ~Moose
> 
> ...


Your success and achievement as a volunteer is bound to generate a better opportunity at another shop. That's the reasonI have volunteered for years. Employers are always on the lookout for good workers and a hearty volunteer makes a good candidate for employment.


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## BC WetCoast (May 27, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Moose,
> . I have taken down 16 giants and the highest bill was $5,300 where we were on site 22 days out of a span of 62 calendar days. To save the customer's lawn we had to rope drop everything until I hired a crane truck to pick the twin trunks and set them on a huge trailer. The stump base was 9' diameter and took 13 hours to grind with my Husqvarna SG-13. It made me strong while being worn out.



22 days to do a $5300 job?!?!?!?!?!?!? You making a career out of that tree??? $240/day in this biz is the best way to go broke. If we don't make $700/man/day somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.


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## ropensaddle (May 27, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> 22 days to do a $5300 job?!?!?!?!?!?!? You making a career out of that tree??? $240/day in this biz is the best way to go broke. If we don't make $700/man/day somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.


Its bad here what i used to get 1 k for I'm lucky to get 600 now I went from grapple truck and bucket new dully to essentially broke because 30 services bid same job and I'm always amazed how cheap it goes for. Most of the people in business here are more loggers than tree service and many to keep from working for someone else are happy at 250 per day its truly depressing


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## ropensaddle (May 27, 2015)

ropensaddle said:


> Its bad here what i used to get 1 k for I'm lucky to get 600 now I went from grapple truck and bucket new dully to essentially broke because 30 services bid same job and I'm always amazed how cheap it goes for. Most of the people in business here are more loggers than tree service and many to keep from working for someone else are happy at 250 per day its truly depressing


 I however have taken monsters down here but I ain't going to be on a big tree longer than 2 to 3 days and usually 1!!!!


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## ShermanC (May 27, 2015)

BC WetCoast said:


> 22 days to do a $5300 job?!?!?!?!?!?!? You making a career out of that tree??? $240/day in this biz is the best way to go broke. If we don't make $700/man/day somebody's got some 'splainin' to do.


Guys, I saved the rest of this story for one or more of you readers to open the door wider, as did BCWetCoast and ropensaddle. I moved to Arkansas from north Florida in fall of '98. After I joined the Methodist church I recognized the opportunity for a ministry in tree care for the church property in hopes one or more of the men of the church would assist...one did for awhile then he got "C" and died. For 12 years I did these trees and covered the expenses out of my business. My business partner (from 2001-2007) belonged to a Baptist church and so we cared for his Church's trees at no charge. Then we did the local county Senior Center trees for free after we had joined that organization. This became a philanthropy for us as our business built by word of mouth, our results and solid integrity. But in 2008 things took a bad turn and got rough. Excuse me for a break here...As Gen. MacArthur told the Japanese, "I shall return".


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## ShermanC (May 27, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Wow, thanks for specifically giving me options to choose from, i will be sure to check them all out as soon as i can. Unfortunately i've been bucking and splitting wood alll damn day and wiped out! Its gonna be an early night for me and busy morning tomorrow. But i will research all of the gear you pointed out! Thanks for your input! Very much appreciated!
> 
> ~Moose
> 
> ...


Off the track here but on the track of making money somehow. Yesterday I got another vacuum to repair. I think it would be more worthwhile to chop wood. I am into the bowels of it above the motor housing trying to get to the foot control and switch box. I can see it but can't get it to open wide enough. Customer said it won't run but it runs fine. That tells me the switch needs attention. So you guys in the thread have a great day,be safe and don't fix anything that sucks like this Eureka Air Speed AS1000. Best humor is to laugh at ourselves.


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## HusqyStihl (May 27, 2015)

Im seriously about tree climbing for removal only. Ive got alot of work asked to be done and climbing. Ive got alot of gear picked out and im anxious to do so


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## ShermanC (May 27, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Im seriously about tree climbing for removal only. Ive got alot of work asked to be done and climbing. Ive got alot of gear picked out and im anxious to do so



Moose,
In our "neck of the woods" and little part of the big world it might be tough to survive by just doing one kind of work such as climbing for removals. I have a friend who does it part time here while depending more on construction and handyman work to make ends meet. His wife had to retire for bad health last year from nursing so they have had to adjust their life to meet the income loss. An excellent climber can get referrals from mechanically-equipped tree services that don't have a climber on staff. To make that work profitably might require some good marketing. And uses of social networking on the Internet. But who is to say that specialization can generate enough income to keep you going?
I suppose it depends on market demand and the economy of your region.

OTOH to offer a variety of services requires more storage space for more equipment all of which needs maintenance. This week three calls came asking for estimates to grind a large stump, for removal of a dead tree and for bracing a codominant pine tree by a house. I am thankful to be skilled equipped and knowledgeable to handle all three projects. When and if your read "Delivering Knock Your Socks Off Service" and after you attend a TCIA Expo you be amazed as I was what a vast industry ours is. And all the while your skill and knowledge with small engines is a great base skill to turn to...almost like fixing vacuum cleaners! I turned yesterday's vacuum job out in two hours of a 26 hour spell and made $40 labor plus earned a new customer. I will call her tomorrow to follow up and ask how the vacuum runs.


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## HusqyStihl (May 27, 2015)

I've been looking at the Matt Cornell rope saddle, looks plenty adjustable with the SRT setup and foot ascender and rope runner. Looks very versatile and can add alot to it. But i do hate looking around on websites, my shopping carts always end up near $2500 bucks 

Has anyone ever heard of, played with, or own one of these "latest and greatest" saddles?

Of course i always plan on fixing small (and heavy equipment of course) during any downtime. i'm lucky enough to have a couple friends that are millionaires here with all different types of construction, excavation, housing/apt flipping... all kinds of stuff. They throw me a bone here and there


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## HusqyStihl (May 27, 2015)

Black Dogg said:


> Moose,
> 
> I got into climbing and tree care last year. So far I've done ten removals for friends/family. All really good advice here so far, I've been reading and learning right along.
> I bought Wesspur's Entry-Level Combo Kit (see here: http://www.wesspur.com/climbing-kits/entry-level-combo-tree-climbing-kit.html ) and have been very happy with it. I made a few changes when I placed the order:
> ...


 

Where abouts in the Eastern Catskills are you located if i may ask? Grew up in Coxsackie my whole life and my grandparents owned a hotel out in East Durham until they bothed passed. I'm all over the Catskills, my son lives right in Catskill with his mother. If youre that close, i'd be glad to join you on the jobsite sometime if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to watch and learn some climbing first hand. Been watching everything i can possibly find on the net but in person i bet its a whole different story..

~Moose


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## ShermanC (May 28, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Where abouts in the Eastern Catskills are you located if i may ask? Grew up in Coxsackie my whole life and my grandparents owned a hotel out in East Durham until they bothed passed. I'm all over the Catskills, my son lives right in Catskill with his mother. If youre that close, i'd be glad to join you on the jobsite sometime if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to watch and learn some climbing first hand. Been watching everything i can possibly find on the net but in person i bet its a whole different story..
> 
> ~Moose


Hey Moose,
Thanks to this forum and Black Dogg your network is building. I am adding some things to the parcel of two books and will mail it in the next few days. Be sure to add www.tcia.org to your Favorites. Non-members have restricted access but that will hopefully change for you in due time. I worked toward having a membership from 1993 until 2008 whenI got so deep into the trade that I had a good safety record, proven work and made sure to set aside funds for liability insurance and then the dues. Consider it as buying an education in tree care. This year the bad weather cut us out of work so bad I had to scrape to pay the liability insurance in March and dues paid two weeks ago.


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## ropensaddle (May 28, 2015)

If pricing in the natural state was more near industry standards the scraping would hurt much less but yes the rain has stunk.


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## HusqyStihl (May 28, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Hey Moose,
> Thanks to this forum and Black Dogg your network is building. I am adding some things to the parcel of two books and will mail it in the next few days. Be sure to add www.tcia.org to your Favorites. Non-members have restricted access but that will hopefully change for you in due time. I worked toward having a membership from 1993 until 2008 whenI got so deep into the trade that I had a good safety record, proven work and made sure to set aside funds for liability insurance and then the dues. Consider it as buying an education in tree care. This year the bad weather cut us out of work so bad I had to scrape to pay the liability insurance in March and dues paid two weeks ago.


 
Been all over the TCIA, and member'd up as a student with NYS ISA. Also just today found another climber really close by, found his card (is a member on here but haven't seen online since 2013), stopped at the store and there was his card! gonna give him a call sometime and ask if i can come watch and learn the ropes, exciting sh1t!

~Moose

EDIT: and thanks again for everything youre sending, let me know anytime if there is anything i can do for you my friend!


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## Black Dogg (May 28, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Where abouts in the Eastern Catskills are you located if i may ask? Grew up in Coxsackie my whole life and my grandparents owned a hotel out in East Durham until they bothed passed. I'm all over the Catskills, my son lives right in Catskill with his mother. If youre that close, i'd be glad to join you on the jobsite sometime if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to watch and learn some climbing first hand. Been watching everything i can possibly find on the net but in person i bet its a whole different story..
> 
> ~Moose


 
Well, I am that close (I'll PM you with details, if you'd like or I can give you a call) but I wouldn't want to teach anyone just yet. I'm still learning myself and probably have a few flaws that a more experienced climber would see instantly. I've been teaching myself with the help of this site, books and by watching vids on youtube (A. Hunicke, Reg Coates, Brian Bixler, Climbing Arborist are just a few ). Any technique I want to try is practiced on the ground first and then I go up maybe five feet and try everything there. Once that works the way I like it then I'll go up higher but always SLOW!
On the jobsite would probably not be a good idea yet either; I have to concentrate on the job at hand and wouldn't want too many distractions. Again, I'm still learning .
But if you want to see my climbing and rigging gear I can swing by sometime and show you.

Black Dogg


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## ShermanC (May 29, 2015)

Black Dogg said:


> Well, I am that close (I'll PM you with details, if you'd like or I can give you a call) but I wouldn't want to teach anyone just yet. I'm still learning myself and probably have a few flaws that a more experienced climber would see instantly. I've been teaching myself with the help of this site, books and by watching vids on youtube (A. Hunicke, Reg Coates, Brian Bixler, Climbing Arborist are just a few ). Any technique I want to try is practiced on the ground first and then I go up maybe five feet and try everything there. Once that works the way I like it then I'll go up higher but always SLOW!
> On the jobsite would probably not be a good idea yet either; I have to concentrate on the job at hand and wouldn't want too many distractions. Again, I'm still learning .
> But if you want to see my climbing and rigging gear I can swing by sometime and show you.
> 
> Black Dogg


Speaking of watching I didn't realize until 2008 the dangers of spectators. That year I applied for Liability Insurance and got accepted my broker/agent strongly advised there be no spectators allowed in the area(s) of work. Six months later at TCIA Expo it was discussed in one or more workshops. It has happened occasionally that a spectator develops into a customer because they liked seeing how the work is done. But make sure to stop work and direct them to move away to a safe zone then keep watch that they don't move closer.

Think of the trauma felt by observers last Sunday in Albuquerque, NM as Ken Raschick, owner of Kens Tree Company (since 1973) extended a wheeled lift chained onto a long trailer but not stabilized to ground. He took four children all the way up as a joyride. Wind blew the lift over killing him, his 12 year old nephew and seriously injuring the other three boys. The web site www.vertikal.net presented photos and description of this, an act that could have been prevented by sound safety policies and practice; no joyrides, no extensions from a trailer mount and last but not least no spectators. If this matter turns to lawsuits for negligence and liability the witnesses who testify will suffer trauma repeatedly as they account for what they saw. OSHA ranks our industry as most dangerous and we who honor that must be proactive to control work to prevent injuries and fatalities.


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## ropensaddle (May 29, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> Speaking of watching I didn't realize until 2008 the dangers of spectators. That year I applied for Liability Insurance and got accepted my broker/agent strongly advised there be no spectators allowed in the area(s) of work. Six months later at TCIA Expo it was discussed in one or more workshops. It has happened occasionally that a spectator develops into a customer because they liked seeing how the work is done. But make sure to stop work and direct them to move away to a safe zone then keep watch that they don't move closer.
> 
> Think of the trauma felt by observers last Sunday in Albuquerque, NM as Ken Raschick, owner of Kens Tree Company (since 1973) extended a wheeled lift chained onto a long trailer but not stabilized to ground. He took four children all the way up as a joyride. Wind blew the lift over killing him, his 12 year old nephew and seriously injuring the other three boys. The web site www.vertikal.net presented photos and description of this, an act that could have been prevented by sound safety policies and practice; no joyrides, no extensions from a trailer mount and last but not least no spectators. If this matter turns to lawsuits for negligence and liability the witnesses who testify will suffer trauma repeatedly as they account for what they saw. OSHA ranks our industry as most dangerous and we who honor that must be proactive to control work to prevent injuries and fatalities.


 One thing osha can't fix is stupid, now I don't know why the stabilizers were not down but imo its not sound thinking.


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## ShermanC (May 29, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Been all over the TCIA, and member'd up as a student with NYS ISA. Also just today found another climber really close by, found his card (is a member on here but haven't seen online since 2013), stopped at the store and there was his card! gonna give him a call sometime and ask if i can come watch and learn the ropes, exciting sh1t!






HusqyStihl said:


> ~Moose
> 
> EDIT: and thanks again for everything youre sending, let me know anytime if there is anything i can do for you my friend!


Moose, I tried to email you at [email protected] but it came back by Mailer-Daemon. I don't know everything about the internet but I know enough to doubt if there is actually an interest service provider called outlook. I think that name is copyrighted by Microsoft. Please try again To send me your email address. Thanks, Sherman


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## HusqyStihl (May 30, 2015)

[email protected]


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## ShermanC (May 30, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> [email protected]


Aha...a "q" instead of "k". That helps. Thanks.


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## Black Dogg (Jun 4, 2015)

Moose,

in my opinion, yes, you are wrong.
If you'd be using the gear for charity work only I would be all for it, but you are going to make money with it (eventually) and to ask other people to pay for something you'll use to earn money is wrong, IMHO.
I used my credit card to pay for my gear and have (slowly) paid it back over the last year. I have had a couple of jobs recently that paid a bit so now I'm all caught up. Any money that I get from future jobs will be used for upgrades to my equipment. That is the reason why I went with the basic kit (and recommend the same for you) and a few rigging tools and left it at that for the time being; I didn't have to lay out a huge amount and go into debt too much.
I was raised in the way that you have to earn what you want and not have everything given to you.
If you want to make a career change and can't afford it yet, wait some time and put some money aside from your sawbusiness. I know all about working in a job you don't like, but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it for a while longer to get to your endgoal.
No offense, just my 2 cents.

Black Dogg


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## HusqyStihl (Jun 4, 2015)

Understood, and i see your points, i will remove it. I just sank so low with medical bills and being out of work i have know idea where to start. My saw business was something i do to keep occupied while out of work. I make half of what a service shop would so i don't see much (almost no profit from it). I would actually love to do this type of work (climbing) and do it for charity only just to gain the experience and to start somewhere. Just thought i would ask for help. I know all about earning my keep and i would have definitely paid it back in charity work. Guess i jumped the gun in thinking of how i could get into the business based on an apprenticeship and very very little money. You see, my doctor wants me out fully disabled for good, i don't agree and want to provide for my son and not live off the taxes of others. It's pretty depressing. I don't know which way to go and even worse, don't know where to start to figure out which way to go. Others say take the disability, which is railroad and quite a large sum, but that still leaves me sitting on my azz and feeling like a loser. Thats not the person i am and not the person i wanna be. I will pursue other options. 

Thanks for your opinion, greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Moose


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## HusqyStihl (Jun 4, 2015)

Do you think i should raise my costs in repairing of saws to almost but not just meet the local shops? I'm not the pro but i have a basic understanding of repair and maintenance of saws. But the reason i charge what i do is because i get more business that way, even though not alot because a guy with a small shop that doesn't have the bigshot logos and signs out front doesnt get the business as they do because of reputation. But i can say that i've had nothing but 100% positive feedback from all the saws i've fixed for everyone, god willing it will stay that way 

~Moose


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## ropensaddle (Jun 4, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Do you think i should raise my costs in repairing of saws to almost but not just meet the local shops? I'm not the pro but i have a basic understanding of repair and maintenance of saws. But the reason i charge what i do is because i get more business that way, even though not alot because a guy with a small shop that doesn't have the bigshot logos and signs out front doesnt get the business as they do because of reputation. But i can say that i've had nothing but 100% positive feedback from all the saws i've fixed for everyone, god willing it will stay that way
> 
> ~Moose


Man your umm lol idk its hard to ridicule a 6 foot five dude but are you gonna be an arborist or are you gonna be a repair tech


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## HusqyStihl (Jun 4, 2015)

Id do both, i rarely sleep so i have plenty of time to do both. Saw repair on the side of course if i went full time climber, or even in the field when needed lol


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## ropensaddle (Jun 4, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Id do both, i rarely sleep so i have plenty of time to do both. Saw repair on the side of course if i went full time climber, or even in the field when needed lol


W


HusqyStihl said:


> Id do both, i rarely sleep so i have plenty of time to do both. Saw repair on the side of course if i went full time climber, or even in the field when needed lol


Hahaha yeah, Well really I wanted to be a country singer but muh voice sucks from all that yellin headache, so I guess I'm stuck at climbing or comedian lol and we know what that pays


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## ShermanC (Jun 4, 2015)

Black Dogg said:


> Moose,
> 
> in my opinion, yes, you are wrong.
> If you'd be using the gear for charity work only I would be all for it, but you are going to make money with it (eventually) and to ask other people to pay for something you'll use to earn money is wrong, IMHO.
> ...


Well said Black Dogg.


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## Black Dogg (Jun 4, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Do you think i should raise my costs in repairing of saws to almost but not just meet the local shops? I'm not the pro but i have a basic understanding of repair and maintenance of saws. But the reason i charge what i do is because i get more business that way, even though not alot because a guy with a small shop that doesn't have the bigshot logos and signs out front doesnt get the business as they do because of reputation. But i can say that i've had nothing but 100% positive feedback from all the saws i've fixed for everyone, god willing it will stay that way
> 
> ~Moose


 
Moose,

I wouldn't raise my costs that high. After all, like you said, you're not a pro and "in business". I would maybe raise them a bit and see what happens. If you go up too high you might shoot yourself in the foot by scaring people away and making less money than now.
If you had nothing but positive feedback that's good! Word-of-mouth advertising is a lot more effective than anything else (and costs less, too ); comments from customers can make or break you really fast!

Black Dogg


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## HusqyStihl (Jun 4, 2015)

I always try to throw in a freebie, an extra chain, air or fuel filter, just something i might have floating around that i may or may not have a use for. Alot of members on here have donated alot of things to me for trial or to help build some saws so i try to pass it on to whoever brings me a saw to work on. The last guy drove over an hour and said he's got buddies with saw issues and plans on sending them my way, and i'm hoping so. And btw, knock on wood about that positive feedback, i hope everyone doesnt start calling tomorrow with trashed saws. Now i've got another problem, i always did saws and this latest endeavor trying to fix the next door ladies ride-on mower (with no luck tho, too far gone unserviced), the rest of the neighborhood showed up today with cub cadets, husq trimmers, you name it. Not real happy about it because they all jumped on the free fix it guy wagon. Well except for one guy who asked for a full rebuild on his trimmer said he'd throw me 20 bucks


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## ShermanC (Jun 4, 2015)

HusqyStihl said:


> Understood, and i see your points, i will remove it. I just sank so low with medical bills and being out of work i have know idea where to start. My saw business was something i do to keep occupied while out of work. I make half of what a service shop would so i don't see much (almost no profit from it). I would actually love to do this type of work (climbing) and do it for charity only just to gain the experience and to start somewhere. Just thought i would ask for help. I know all about earning my keep and i would have definitely paid it back in charity work. Guess i jumped the gun in thinking of how i could get into the business based on an apprenticeship and very very little money. You see, my doctor wants me out fully disabled for good, i don't agree and want to provide for my son and not live off the taxes of others. It's pretty depressing. I don't know which way to go and even worse, don't know where to start to figure out which way to go. Others say take the disability, which is railroad and quite a large sum, but that still leaves me sitting on my azz and feeling like a loser. Thats not the person i am and not the person i wanna be. I will pursue other options.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks, Moose





ropensaddle said:


> One thing osha can't fix is stupid, now I don't know why the stabilizers were not down but imo its not sound thinking.


I saw the photos on web site Albuquerque Journal.com. It looked like a four wheel telehaqndler without out outriggers.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2015)

treetopguy2028 said:


> I saw the photos on web site Albuquerque Journal.com. It looked like a four wheel telehaqndler without out outriggers.


ok but chained to a trailer ? Was way i read it, sounded like asking for trouble


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## ShermanC (Jun 5, 2015)

ropensaddle said:


> ok but chained to a trailer ? Was way i read it, sounded like asking for trouble


No doubt about it. I wonder if any spectators tried to stop him and he would not listen took d reason. Since this was a joyride any liability carrier will deny any benefits. Then I hope the aGent and or broker will lose their license to write policies for cranes and access. I have not had time to search the web to find out how the two ten year old boys are. Ken Raschick's seven year old son died last Saturday. Such a tragedy.


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## ShermanC (Jul 3, 2018)

It’s been a long time since I’ve been on AS. The reasons are good...no excuses.

For my Husqvarna SG-13 stumper I have disassembled the engine for service including finding a missing wire for the Kill Switch. If you plan to work on one of these especially the coil here’s a suggestion to save time and work. First loosen the three bolts/nuts of the right fender but keep the front bolt barely fastened so you can swing the fender outboard and forward to get the flywheeel cover off. The Honda GX390 engine has a unique spark plug/coil wire plug Cap. It houses a slotted (screwdriver) threaded brass piece holding a small fuse and compression spring inside. After cleaning with CRC Electrical Parts Cleaner continuity tested good. This 250 lb. stumper with Green Mfg. #500 carbide teeth has been a great workhorse even though it is not self-propelled.


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