# Is this proper trimming?



## ScottTree (Jan 4, 2016)

Is this good way to trim. Yes or No? And why? Ty.


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## ATH (Jan 4, 2016)

Nope

There is no good reason for that. None.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 4, 2016)




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## Del_ (Jan 4, 2016)

Maybe not as bad as it looks.


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## Jed1124 (Jan 4, 2016)

This is where a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and one of the reasons the latest trend in reduction pruning has me concerned. From the pictures somebody knew enough to reduce to a node, but threw out entirely any standard of reducing to something that can become terminal. Many cuts are flush and will not compartmentalize well.
Those who are practicing reduction pruning properly will not leave a tree looking mutilated as those do.


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## ATH (Jan 4, 2016)

I am hesitant to even give that much credit. I wouldn't put that in the same room as reduction cutting. It is topping pure and simple. Yes...they left a few more branches than a "proper" topping job, but that does not make it "less bad". Those trees will have all of the problems of topped trees and none of the characteristics of reduced trees.


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## treesmith (Jan 4, 2016)

According to both British and Australian standard for amenity tree pruning that's lopping and/or topping.

Read these

BS 3998 for UK

AS 4373 for Oz


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## Jed1124 (Jan 4, 2016)

OP, what are the circumstances surrounding these trees? Did you do the work? Did a competitor of yours do the work? Are you the property owner?


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## Jed1124 (Jan 4, 2016)

treesmith said:


> According to both British and Australian standard for amenity tree pruning that's lopping and/or topping.
> 
> Read these
> 
> ...



You can include ANSI standards to that list as well.


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## Macman125 (Jan 4, 2016)

Looks like an attempt at lateral.


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## treesmith (Jan 4, 2016)

"But, look at all the healthy regrowth..."


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## I'llbearealclimberoneday (Jan 4, 2016)

That's pretty good for California tree work. Around here it doesn't fly


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## JeffGu (Jan 4, 2016)




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## ATH (Jan 4, 2016)

nice. I thought about ignoring it wondering if somebody isn't just trolling, but it is 101, so why not give it a shot.


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## JeffGu (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah, I decided it was a rhetorical question... that's a proper tree trimming job in the same way beheading someone is a proper haircut.


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## ksvanbrunt (Jan 4, 2016)

A few nice proper coat racks i'd say. They should flush out! hahaha. Poor trees have no chance nowadays


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't think the OP wanted an answer,,or he just wanted to see what we would say.
Jeff


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 4, 2016)

It looks to me like a crew got sent out to do the prune, had some ridiculous prescription from the salesman and did the best they could given what was there.

Guess how I came to that conclusion.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 4, 2016)

jefflovstrom said:


> I don't think the OP wanted an answer,,or he just wanted to see what we would say.
> Jeff


He probably did it and wanted to know what we thought.


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 4, 2016)

Del_ said:


> Maybe not as bad as it looks.


Care to explain?


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## capetrees (Jan 4, 2016)

ScottTree said:


> View attachment 476083
> View attachment 476082
> View attachment 476081
> View attachment 476080
> Is this good way to trim. Yes or No? And why? Ty.



Please report back in one year. This being the before, I'd love to see the after.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jan 4, 2016)

KenJax Tree said:


> Care to explain?



Good luck getting anything that guy, he is worse than Jeff.


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## ScottTree (Jan 4, 2016)

First chance I have had to respond. To answer a few questions. I am a California tree contractor. This is a condo complex in my city that I drive by all the time. When I Drove by the other day this is what I saw. I have been noticing this persons work more and more all at residential locations. Now I see this large commercial job. Well over 100 trees on this property all done the same way. Many different species. No doubt it is the same person. It is like his signature. I don't post much here. Honestly I posted this just to get real opinions to see if maybe I am wrong for being upset after seeing this. I myself am not an arborist. But I do not practice topping. Don't believe in it. I will not top a tree that has not previously been topped. That is just the way I do my own business and only my opinion.


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## ScottTree (Jan 4, 2016)

Jed1124 said:


> This is where a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and one of the reasons the latest trend in reduction pruning has me concerned. From the pictures somebody knew enough to reduce to a node, but threw out entirely any standard of reducing to something that can become terminal. Many cuts are flush and will not compartmentalize well.
> Those who are practicing reduction pruning properly will not leave a tree looking mutilated as those do.


When you say flush. Do you mean flush to the node??


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 4, 2016)

ScottTree said:


> First chance I have had to respond. To answer a few questions. I am a California tree contractor. This is a condo complex in my city that I drive by all the time. When I Drove by the other day this is what I saw. I have been noticing this persons work more and more all at residential locations. Now I see this large commercial job. Well over 100 trees on this property all done the same way. Many different species. No doubt it is the same person. It is like his signature. I don't post much here. Honestly I posted this just to get real opinions to see if maybe I am wrong for being upset after seeing this. I myself am not an arborist. But I do not practice topping. Don't believe in it. I will not top a tree that has not previously been topped. That is just the way I do my own business and only my opinion.



Are you thinking about how much money you can make being a better and cheaper hack than him?
Your call,,,sell yourself and it may work,,
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 4, 2016)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Good luck getting anything that guy, he is worse than Jeff.



Photosynthesis,,,,,
so there,,,
Jeff


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## Jed1124 (Jan 4, 2016)

ScottTree said:


> When you say flush. Do you mean flush to the node??


Flush cuts are cuts that go past the branch collar into the branch bark ridge.


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## ScottTree (Jan 5, 2016)

Jed1124 said:


> Flush cuts are cuts that go past the branch collar into the branch bark ridge.


Lol I knew that. For some reason I didn't think that's what you meant.


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## ScottTree (Jan 5, 2016)

jefflovstrom said:


> Are you thinking about how much money you can make being a better and cheaper hack than him?
> Your call,,,sell yourself and it may work,,
> Jeff


My opinion is. I Don't think what was done to these trees and property is an ethical practice. That said. Maybe that is a small testament to my not being a complete hack. Your throwing curve balls from left field my friend.


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## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

Just out of interest, did you see any spur marks on those stems?


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## Creeker (Jan 5, 2016)

Customer may have given instructions, ie - I want them all round 10m (30ft) high, can you get that done.

The real problem is probably that the tree is not the best for that location, grows to high.

How do you carry out the customers instructions without this brutal topping ?


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## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

It's an arborists job to discuss options with a client. "I'm just doing what the customer wants" is not an arboricultural saying


If you prune trees in this fashion you are a hack, if your boss instructs you and you prune trees in this fashion then you are a hack who works for a hack.


There's more to Arb than just cutting bits off, management plans and reductions designed to limit/redirect growth, regular pruning etc

The first step is the right tree in the right place


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## Creeker (Jan 5, 2016)

Know what yr saying treesmith, but lets say it's the 1st time yr seen the trees, what would you do given
his hypothetical instructions.

I mentioned the right tree for the right place, this hasn't happened here, we agree on that.

Again hypothetically - The reason the customer needs them drastically lowered is they are filling the spouts and rusting them out
causing $$$ maintenance bills on the units he is managing.

If you don't do it, he'll get someone else who will hack them worse than the pics by OP.

Pls educate me, where do I cut them to get them lower overall height.

Not trying to be a smartar** but appreciate a good work method.


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## ScottTree (Jan 5, 2016)

treesmith said:


> Just out of interest, did you see any spur marks on those stems?


I'll be in that area again this week. Last time just drove by . Planned on doing a quick walk around this week. That was one thing going to look for.


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## ScottTree (Jan 5, 2016)

Creeker said:


> Customer may have given instructions, ie - I want them all round 10m (30ft) high, can you get that done.
> 
> The real problem is probably that the tree is not the best for that location, grows to high.
> 
> How do you carry out the customers instructions without this brutal topping ?


Firstly the scope of this job is much different from a residential job. Secondly, this person did not top one or two trees. He topped an eco-system. And keep in mind I'm in California. I'll give you a very possible scenario with the scope of this job. Owner tells his property manager trees need to be trimmed they are getting to full or large. Or some broad instructions in nature. Now the manager is the acting agent for the owner. So he calls up OP. Keep in mind almost no customer will ever know the damage topping presents. Now. The owner walks by 2 months after and sees what the manager signed off on. Isn't happy, makes a couple phone calls to find out this is not a good practice. And thus a whole can of I could be out of business has just been opened. The contractor board is not here to protect a contractor. It is in place to protect the consumer. In the eyes of the board the contractor has an ethical responsibility to make sure the everyone involved fully understands every aspect of the job. Just my guess. Just speculation. I doubt this was done here or in most cases like this. So in my opinion to the question. You don'T. You walk away.
And to your hypothetical about the spouts rusting. Topping is only going to make it worse. Tree needs the foliage. You take it all off tree is going to try and replace it as fast as possible resulting in a growth explosion. Creating even more then what u removed. And creating a whole new bunch of problems to boot. Not a good idea. Again only my opinion and the guidelines I follow.


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## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

Creeker said:


> Know what yr saying treesmith, but lets say it's the 1st time yr seen the trees, what would you do given
> his hypothetical instructions.
> 
> I mentioned the right tree for the right place, this hasn't happened here, we agree on that.
> ...


Scrub trees - removal. Self sown - removal. High value amenity trees, reduction over property and maintenance pruning to standard. Whatever is done should not be detrimental to the long term health and stability of the tree or you remove it.

getting grief as I'm playing cards with family


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## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

Creeker said:


> Know what yr saying treesmith, but lets say it's the 1st time yr seen the trees, what would you do given
> his hypothetical instructions.
> 
> I mentioned the right tree for the right place, this hasn't happened here, we agree on that.
> ...



Pm sent


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## DR. P. Proteus (Jan 5, 2016)

What are you gonna do? I mean what does the apartment manager know about trees? What does he care even? He just knows his boss was told there has been some complaining, some of it legit by the looks of it. They are concerned with keeping the buildings clear, they would probably like to just chop them all down anyway but then people would complain about that.

It looks like a better top job than most. The really big trees are not to shabby considering what could have been done, most of the wounding is done further out instead of on big support wood. So that is gooder I suppose. The roofs are clear and walkways are clear for pedestrian traffic.


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## treesmith (Jan 5, 2016)

Gotta admit, its some of the nicest topping I've seen



If I did that at work, I'd get sacked


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 5, 2016)

ScottTree said:


> My opinion is. I Don't think what was done to these trees and property is an ethical practice. That said. Maybe that is a small testament to my not being a complete hack. Your throwing curve balls from left field my friend.



Nah, not curve balls,,you have every right to feel the way you do, it shows you have ethic's.
Jeff


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## Creeker (Jan 6, 2016)

Thank for the PM treesmith, understand the Arb. approach, looking at what is left in the pics and
*imagining the "before" does anyone think, on the first visit to this work site, that you could have achieved the outcomes requested by the customer. ?*

I'm asking this as I do a little tree work, from the ground only, and pass off anything larger to a tree
contractor I work in with. I'm really wondering if the trees in the OP could have been successfully height reduced
to the speci's of the customer.

I hate to get "hack" requests and often try to point out target cut preferences to customers who self prune
small shrubs that I can see they do themselves.

Also occasionally talk customers out of tree removals when they don't really have an understanding of the
request and the trees future lifespan in the particular location. Why cut down a healthy well sited tree that
has years ahead of it !


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## ATH (Jan 6, 2016)

On those trees I'd ask "what is the problem with the height of the trees?". There is no overhead obstruction. Having shorter bushy trees isn't going to make them less messy...what happened there is going to make more of a mess in a few years that if they did nothing... But we don't even know if "mess reduction" was the goal.


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## treesmith (Jan 6, 2016)

It would be interesting to know what the client wanted and what the tree worker said.

How many times have we all heard "my trees are getting big" well, yeah, they're trees, that's kinda what trees do. 7 times out of 10 their "enormous" tree is 30'-60' tall and in near perfect health, who here has told a client that their tree doesn't need any work done and walked away from a paycheck?

My wife works at a council in ops, one part is taking work requests from residents to forward on to the arborists for site visits, most of it is complete nonsense, "can you remove this mature evergreen gum tree, the leaves drop in my garden/birds land in it and sing happily/it has branches" that sort of stuff, generally people are pretty ignorant about trees, thats where we come in.
As arborists its our job to inform the public about the whys and hows, best practice, tree health, what is likely to be needed in the future, we are supposed to care and not just offer a blanket pruning policy to drum up regular work. 

I guess it comes down to honesty, professionalism and ethics.

Nothing pisses me off more than "professionals" who regularly milk people for money, ie physios, chiropractors, tree cutters, you all know what I mean, they don't want to fix the problem, no, they like the problem, they just want you come back and keep giving them money to pay for that ****ing Porsche outside....

Prime example is my mother in law, pretty healthy but has problems with mobility, she saw a doctor and in Oz the healthcare system is all about money, so doctor drums up work for a specialist as he's getting a bump fee. The specialist's professional assessment is to strongly push her towards surgery and at least one new hip, on a 70+ yr old lady.
MIL sees my physio and 2 hours/$180 later with instructions to swim and walk barefoot a little every day is pretty much fixed.... there's absolutely nothing wrong with her hip....

Ethics


Now why should it take me 15+years to find an ethical physio?


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## Zale (Jan 6, 2016)

Is the client happy? If so, it's a great job. Think about the amount of pruning these trees will require in the future. Someone is going to be very busy. If you have been in this business long enough, you've done this type of work. It ain't pretty but no one said every job is going to be beautiful.
.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 6, 2016)

Zale said:


> Is the client happy? If so, it's a great job. Think about the amount of pruning these trees will require in the future. Someone is going to be very busy. If you have been in this business long enough, you've done this type of work. It ain't pretty but no one said every job is going to be beautiful.
> .



$$$$$$$,
Jeff


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## treesmith (Jan 6, 2016)

Makes the world go round for sure


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## Creeker (Jan 7, 2016)

Appreciate the chat gents, thanks.


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## Ferguson system (Jan 7, 2016)

Removal and planting new trees that match the location would have been better in the long run. Had the trees been smaller/younger it could have been ok to reduce the crown (max 20-25%), if done properly.


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## Creeker (Jan 7, 2016)

Ferguson system said:


> Removal and planting new trees that match the location would have been better in the long run. Had the trees been smaller/younger it could have been ok to reduce the crown (max 20-25%), if done properly.



That was at the back of my mind Ferg., maybe 20% of them per year to average out the $ cost to customer.


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## tidy (Jan 7, 2016)

Ferguson system said:


> Removal and planting new trees that match the location would have been better in the long run. Had the trees been smaller/younger it could have been ok to reduce the crown (max 20-25%), if done properly.



Just like with other posts recommending correct practice/alternatives, that's all well and good but you save time & possibly make more money by just agreeing to what the client requests. Not to say I wont point out that its incorrect but don't waste to much effort on the cause...


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