# knot-free rigging



## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

I was pondering a way to make rigging branches down a little faster and more efficient. Yea yea I know I'm in no position to be worrying about this yet blah blah blah.

Anyway, instead of constantly tying, and then having the groundie un-tie, a running bowline, why not just DFL a steel 'biner to the end of your rigging line and use speed slings to girth hitch the limbs? Seems a lot quicker to attach and a whole lot quicker for the groundie to un-do after it's been loaded. Is there any reason this isn't done in practice?


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## derwoodii (Dec 25, 2009)

Yep agree, my 1st real job for 3 years was with a contract co that just used "as you say" a bull / work rope and tag line with good solid snaps spliced into the ends. It worked a treat, lashed up the limb snip in the tag line & down it went. Easy un hook n snap the 2 ropes together pulled back up and so on. Unsure why this is not seen more in the trade. Sure others will advise on unseen down sides.


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## ddhlakebound (Dec 25, 2009)

I do exactly that for light rigging with no shock loading. It's easier, faster, and works pretty smoothly. I carry up about a dozen 1" tube slings, and have 'em sent back up five or six at a time. 

The downsides are less tensile strength, more pieces in the chain, and multiple more pieces to monitor for safety while in use. I wouldn't be willing to shock load the system with much weight at all with the extra (and weaker) pieces in the rigging chain.

edit: referring to Plas's OP.


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## Tree Pig (Dec 25, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I was pondering a way to make rigging branches down a little faster and more efficient. Yea yea I know I'm in no position to be worrying about this yet blah blah blah.
> 
> Anyway, instead of constantly tying, and then having the groundie un-tie, a running bowline, why not just DFL a steel 'biner to the end of your rigging line and use speed slings to girth hitch the limbs? Seems a lot quicker to attach and a whole lot quicker for the groundie to un-do after it's been loaded. Is there any reason this isn't done in practice?



Also do the same thing, web slings are cheap keep two or three on your belt and you can be setting up pieces while your groundies are unstrapping, or hook up two or three at a time for smaller stuff.


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## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

No I never read about it, was just thinking about it. Why do you say it won't work?




TreeCo said:


> I get the feeling you've alread read about such a system.
> 
> 
> It won't work!
> ...


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## RacerX (Dec 25, 2009)

If strength is an issue you can make an endless loop by making an End For End splice on a piece of 1/2" or larger double braid rope. This loop can be girth hitched to the limb and attached to the rigging line quickly with a steel carabiner. Can be removed just as quickly on the ground since no knot untieing is involved. Makes for a rather efficient system.


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## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

Are you drunk man?

You're telling me that girth hitching a speed sling to a limb, then 'binering that sling to the end of a rigging line would not make a connection? Where is the logic here?

And no I never read Ekka's thread.



TreeCo said:


> You must be channeling Ekka!
> 
> He chose the same title you did to explain the same system and had photos!
> 
> ...


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## Treecutr (Dec 25, 2009)

I have been doing the biner thing, and small slings with girth hitch on lighter limbs, especially some of the pines with tons of branches. Makes it quicker. Also rig a few branches at the same time with clove hitches, just have to cut in the right order to keep tension on( start with the bottom branch and work up ) usually no more than 3 branches at a time though. I have only had 1 branch slip out on me, but thats also another reason to not have ground guy standing under fall path. I'll take a couple pics next time and post here.


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## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Well I did have a beer a few weeks ago!
> 
> 
> 
> So.......you knew the answer to your question before you asked it. :jester:



Ah, so you were just f'ing with me huh


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## RacerX (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> You must be channeling Ekka!
> 
> He chose the same title you did to explain the same system and had photos!
> 
> Even to the casual observer it's obvious it would never work.



If this EKKA had photo's why would say it wouldn't work.


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## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> As you are with us.



Um....no. This thread was not intended to be a joke...at all.


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## RacerX (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I was joking.



I kind of figured that. :yoyo:


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## Plasmech (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I know it wasn't intended as a joke. It was intended to look like you had come up with the idea out of the blue.........when really such ideas have been discussed here hundreds of times.
> 
> 
> You rock!:rockn:
> ...



Seriously...how old are you again? 17?


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## treemandan (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I know it wasn't intended as a joke. It was intended to look like you had come up with the idea out of the blue.........when really such ideas have been discussed here hundreds of times.
> 
> 
> You rock!:rockn:
> ...



Thanks for the psycho-analysis and no, you rock.

Anyway, I don't really like it, knotless rigging that is. For one the knot is always tied at the same spot on the biner that is used. Also it adds more links to mind. You got the limb, the rope, the loose strap and everything else to pay attention to. The falling limb gets all smashed up going down and that is no place for a biner to be. With just a knot its no problem if it gets beat up and smacked around. But there is no reason that it can't be done. When I worked with Treeco years ago we used a snap tied to the end of rope and just wrapped that around the branch. Treeco had a lot of bent snaps. 
Its no big deal, you can if you want and it can be better is some applications. I , personally, just like to use the rope and tie the knot everytime. I enjoy watching the guy on the ground work to get it off.


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## treemandan (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh and Treeco... ahh forget it.


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## Rftreeman (Dec 26, 2009)

by the time you got the sling wrapped and snapped I'd be making my cut...


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## ozzy42 (Dec 26, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Thanks for the psycho-analysis and no, you rock.
> 
> Anyway, I don't really like it, knotless rigging that is. For one the knot is always tied at the same spot on the biner that is used. Also it adds more links to mind. You got the limb, the rope, the loose strap and everything else to pay attention to. The falling limb gets all smashed up going down and that is no place for a biner to be. With just a knot its no problem if it gets beat up and smacked around. But there is no reason that it can't be done. When I worked with Treeco years ago we used a snap tied to the end of rope and just wrapped that around the branch. Treeco had a lot of bent snaps.
> Its no big deal, you can if you want and it can be better is some applications. I , personally, just like to use the rope and tie the knot everytime. I enjoy watching the guy on the ground work to get it off.



:agree2:
It doesn't take that long to just tie an RB or a clove hitch .
The only excption would be if I need to cut and throw some pcs. but they are just a bit out of reach or too heavy to hold with one hand.
Clip it,cut it,tip it over,unclip it,throw it,move to next one.


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## RedlineIt (Dec 26, 2009)

Plasmech,

Knotless rigging with a sling and a 'biner has been around for awhile.

For light rigging, I use it all the time, because it's quicker, especially for the groundman. It's also quick in the tree if you need to move around for the next rig, just clip the 'biner onto your saddle and move.

The dan makes a point about rigging being no place for a 'biner, that's why they make steel 'biners rated to 32Kn. A slam off the trunk, or a clink off a patio stone doesn't worry me with a steel 'biner, like it would with alloy. I also use sewn Dyneema slings, rated to 27Kn, equal to my light rigging ropes.

It's not a new idea, just a good one.

RedlineIt


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## Plasmech (Dec 26, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Oh and Treeco... ahh forget it.



But he's so smart Ben, he's so smart...you know, one of those smart tree guys. Smarter than the rest of us.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 26, 2009)

I use slings and girth hitch method for all light rigging duties. No shock loading however.


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

I love listening to armchair experts who know all about systems without ever having used them..... Treeco.

The knot vs krab thing has been kicked around for years. Knots only is cheaper to use and less weight to carry. Krabs are faster and more flexible. It will depend on the job you are doing as to which will work best for you. The key is to try them all and pick the right tool for the job.


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## RacerX (Dec 27, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The knot vs krab thing has been kicked around for years. Knots only is cheaper to use and less weight to carry. Krabs are faster and more flexible. It will depend on the job you are doing as to which will work best for you. The key is to try them all and pick the right tool for the job.




Well said.


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## outofmytree (Dec 27, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If I'm catching your drift right in your opening statement maybe you don't know that I've been using biners and slings for over 20 years in all kinds of rigging scenarios. Before slings I used five foot pieces of 1/2 inch nylon rope anchor hitched to a biner with a running bowline to catch the load. This stuff has been around for so long it's almost old school.



Yeah. I reread the whole thread and realised my late night brain thought you said you didnt use em. My bad.

I did wonder why you go the opposite way to what I consider "normal". I use 1 krab on the termination and a number of loopies rather than 1 knot as a termination and a number of krabs and lines. Lighter and less messy IMO.

Anyway. My apologies for the broadside, I was out of line.


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