# Philbert's Chain Salvage Challenge



## Philbert (Sep 27, 2013)

*Philbert’s Chain Salvage Challenge*

_(*NOTE: several original links to this thread were lost. I have tried to replace some of the information. Links and photos embedded in some of these image rich threads may also have been lost)_

In another thread, I made some kind of comment like, “most chains can be salvaged’. So I decided to take on a few personal challenges to see if I could live up to those words. Also to start a thread where other A.S. members can post chain saving / salvaging / scrounging ideas and methods.

I described my general chain salvage process in this thread: Philbert Meets the STIHL RS3
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philbert-meets-the-stihl-rs3.202969/
and a few A.S. members sent me used chains: some just needing attention; some diverted from the scrap pile (thank you guys!).

Clearly, some chains are not worth the effort. But playing with these ‘special needs’ chains may help me learn what can be done when needed or desired (e.g. a hard to find chain for an old saw) or when just feeling frugal.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Sep 27, 2013)

This chain came wrapped around the handle of a garage sale saw. For perspective, this saw _actually had moss growing_ from the spot where the muffler used to be.

Part of the chain is recognizable. The rest is rusted into a solid, spiral hunk that cannot be separated or moved. All I know is that it is 3/8 low profile pitch chain. I can’t even count the links.

_(*see attached photos)

*

Chain Number One*_

1. Cleaning with the purple stuff (see thread above). It’s a Sabre! About 34 links are in surprisingly good condition. I could actually break these links off, sharpen them, and use them right away. Maybe the greasy coating protected them?

Too bad that the shortest loop I can use is 40 drive links (for a pole pruner). If this was a more common chain, I could maybe spin/splice it to another piece to make a longer loop.

*
*

2. Tied an overnight white vinegar bath for the rust; this has worked for me on some rusty tools and on some vintage tie straps.

The vinegar dissolved some rust, but cosmetically turned most of the shiny metal black (this will wear off or can be scrubbed off of tools). Note that several of the chromed cutters are still shiny, even on the heavily rusted links.

I was able to separate the overlapped spirals of frozen chain, but not straighten anything.

Philbert

*
*


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## Philbert (Sep 27, 2013)

*Chain One (continued)*

3. Tried the electrolytic rust removal route (discussed in other threads) for a couple of hours.

_(*see attached photos)

_

It’s a loop!!! (The Good). Really surprised me. Nothing that will travel around a bar, but several of the rivets loosened up, even if the links were still crusty. I can count 56 links, but got no more usable links from this process.

_
_

(The Bad) The chrome spalled off on several cutters. So I am not recommending this rust removal process for chains.

_
_
_
*WINNER?*_ - The chain

_*LESSONS?*_ - Rust may be a bigger enemy of chains than rocks. Could have stopped with the success of Step 1 and salvaged part of the chain. This would make more sense if it was a more common chain (e.g. Oregon type 91).

_*NEXT TIME?*_ - Still some other rust remediation methods to try!

Philbert


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## Deleted member 116684 (Sep 27, 2013)

i'm gonna like this thread


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## zogger (Sep 27, 2013)

That's cool!

Looking forward to other salvage operations!


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## SkippyKtm (Sep 27, 2013)

This is going to be a fun thread to visit fo' sho...


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## 01redstroker (Sep 27, 2013)

For rust removal you guys need to try this stuff

Evapo-Rust Rust Remover - Home » Evapo-Rust

Works great and only removes the rust


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## CTYank (Sep 27, 2013)

Any chance you'd try brushing on some "naval jelly" on the side straps and drive links? Might work, nothing to lose, and it can be targeted.


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## Steve NW WI (Sep 27, 2013)

Need more victims? Got at least 1 thats been hanging in the shed as long as I can remember...


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## CWME (Sep 27, 2013)

Might try some evaporust too. Cool thread btw!


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## fearofpavement (Sep 27, 2013)

I had a couple chains that looked about like that. I tossed them into the bottom of my gunk tank (parts washer) Checked on them after a few months. They were still rusted so pitched them back into the tank. About a year or so later, I happened across them and was able to free one up and the other I think I pitched...

One thing I have discovered is that if the chain is very rusty, it's not really worth much effort to revive. The reason for this is although about a minute of cutting wood will clean the dirtiest nastiest chain up nicely, if it was rusty, the rust will clean off but there will be a lot of play where the rivets were rusted but now are sloppy.

So my consensus is that for other than the rarest of chains, the time invested into salvaging a rusty chain would be better spent elsewhere.


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## Philbert (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks for all the quick (and positive) feedback!



CTYank said:


> Any chance you'd try brushing on some "naval jelly" on the side straps and drive links?



Naval jelly is one of the items in my rust arsenal. It is essentially phosphoric acid in a jellied base I believe. It tends to bleach steel lighter, but this is (again) just a cosmetic thing. I think that the label also warns about chrome, so we will have to watch the cutters. 



Steve NW WI said:


> Need more victims? Got at least 1 thats been hanging in the shed as long as I can remember...



Was I being too subtle about that?

Bring it to the Interfaith GTG Oct 5. If I can save it, and you still have a saw that goes with it, I might even get it back to you sometime!



CWME said:


> Might try some evaporust too.



Evaporust has been mentioned in a few threads here on A.S. I have only seen it for $20 a gallon, so I have not tried it yet. Do you have any experience with it? Anyone know how it treats chrome?

I think that we will find some more rusty chains to try things on . . .

Philbert


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## xtremez (Sep 28, 2013)

*rust remover*

I actually just bought a gallon of the Evapo rust less than a week ago. I did it just for the reason you are. I had a couple chains that were hanging out in the back of my jeep far too long and were caked in rust. They looked far worse than the two chains you have pictured. I put them in a bucket and dumped the gallon of evapo in and in 4 hours they looked like new chains. All the chrome was intact. Only thing I noticed was a black film on the chain but that burned off the first time I ran them in wood. Amazing stuff. It got me excited. I started digging up every rusty thing I could find.


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## tedmister2 (Sep 28, 2013)

*nice thread.*

I find a month or so soaking in a ziplock bag of oil does wonders for old weathered or rusty chains. When finished the oil is black and the chains are shiny. Also a bit of acetone in the oil seams to help as well as some marvel mystery oil for good measure. Any other soaking ideas?


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## zogger (Sep 28, 2013)

I never tried it either, but just read a buncha reviews on evaporust. Seems decent.

Says one gallon can do 300 lbs of rusty tools..that's a lotta chain loops!


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## jus2fat (Sep 28, 2013)

Here's a good video demonstration of using Evapo-Rust...

EvapoRust Demonstration - YouTube

Also it cleans chrome without any damage...

Just have to apply with a paint brush on larger parts like wheels and exhaust pipes.

J2F


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## CWME (Sep 28, 2013)

I dug out an old chain that came on a parts saw I got a while back. It had some rust on it and a few frozen drive links. It is soaking in evaporust now so we can see ow it does.


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## Philbert (Sep 29, 2013)

xtremez said:


> I actually just bought a gallon of the Evapo rust less than a week ago. . . I had a couple chains . . . I put them in a bucket and dumped the gallon of evapo in and in 4 hours they looked like new chains. All the chrome was intact.



I will have to try it. Might be the liquid Fiskars?

I an finding it locally for about $9/quart or $23/gallon (same regular price at a local discount auto parts store as at HF with their 25% off coupon!)



tedmister2 said:


> I find a month or so soaking in a ziplock bag . . .



The guy in the video just2fat referenced mentioned the same thing. I think that that is a great idea for lots of chemicals.



CWME said:


> I dug out an old chain that came on a parts saw I got a while back. It had some rust on it and a few frozen drive links. It is soaking in evaporust now so we can see how it does.



Let us know. Could be that the chrome was not tightly bonded to the cutter on that Sabre chain I tried (?) but I think that the electrolytic reaction kind of sputtered it off. Really interested to hear if you get the same positive results that xtremez did. If so, one jug could pay for it self with the first good chain it saved.

There have been some other, rust related threads here on A.S - might be more, but this is probably a good time to reference some:

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/206952.htm

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/181637.htm

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/110719.htm

- http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/238699.htm

So this is clearly not a new problem, and there still may be other things to try.

As fearofpavement's comment suggest - some chains may have light surface rust, some may have deep pits, and some may just be linear plies of iron oxide. But it is good to have a few options in your bag of tricks.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Sep 29, 2013)

*Chain Number Two*

This chain was given to me at a GTG in a bundle with several other chains. Fortunately, some of the other loops had more life left in them!

Really nothing to work with here. The chain body/chassis (drive links, tie straps, etc.) is in surprisingly good shape for the amount of tooth wear. But the cutters are uneven, and most are worn past the wear indicators. If I evened out and sharpened the cutters, many would fly off when they hit wood,

This chain wouldn’t even hold up for use as a stumper or race chain. I suppose that the remaining cutters could be ground off for use as a drive chain with a Lewis winch or Log Wizard! If this was a rare chain, it might be worth saving for parts (tie straps and drive links), but this Oregon 91, bumper tie strap chain is about as common as nitrogen in air.

I don’t know if this chain was heavily used, or if someone ground away lots of tooth with each sharpening. Because of the uneven cutter lengths and angles, and differences in R and L cutters, I suspect that it was free-hand filed, at least toward the end of it’s career.

*WINNER?* - Whoever got that much use out of the chain!

_*LESSONS?*_ - Chains are a consumable part. At some point, ya’ gotta buy a new one.

Philbert

_(*see attached photos)







_


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## CWME (Sep 29, 2013)

First time posting a photo from my iPad. Hope it came out. There was a good amount of rust in this area of the chain and the links were frozen. All freed up and the rust will wipe off now. This was an overnight soak but I have used this same solution more than a few times now.


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## terryknight (Sep 29, 2013)

i'm liking this thread


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## angelo c (Sep 29, 2013)

wonder if a soak in a "simple Green" first to remove the heavy gunk would matter prior to the Evapo Rust. maybe keep the Evapo cleaner in the long run.


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## Philbert (Sep 29, 2013)

CWME said:


> First time posting a photo from my iPad. Hope it came out.



Looks pretty good. Make sure that you rinse all that stuff off and lube it really good.

Philbert


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## hangfirew8 (Sep 29, 2013)

Philbert said:


> 2. Tied an overnight white vinegar bath for the rust; this has worked for me on some rusty tools and on some vintage tie straps.
> 
> The vinegar dissolved some rust, but cosmetically turned most of the shiny metal black (this will wear off or can be scrubbed off of tools). Note that several of the chromed cutters are still shiny, even on the heavily rusted links.
> 
> I was able to separate the overlapped spirals of frozen chain, but not straighten anything.



Instead of just vinegar, try vinegar and salt. I have derusted old tools with great success, as long as they are degreased. One word of warning- make sure nothing iron extends into the air through the liquid, or it will rust even more. The workpiece must be completely submerged.

HF


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## Philbert (Sep 30, 2013)

angelo c said:


> wonder if a soak in a "simple Green" first to remove the heavy gunk would matter prior to the Evapo Rust. maybe keep the Evapo cleaner in the long run.



I bought a gallon today and the label recommends this. It says that cleaning off greasy residue will speed up the process. I assume that brushing off any loose surface rust will also improve efficiency.

The label also says to use at 65*F or above, and a technical rep on the phone said that using it in a heated parts washer (for water based cleaners) will speed up the process. 

He stated that you can re-use the liquid until it turns black, but that you have to replace any water that evaporates if used in an open container because this affects performance. Do not dilute it. His suggestion was to place a mark on the container to mark the liquid level so that you can observe if any water evaporates.

Philbert


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 1, 2013)

Phil, here's the chain I'm bringing you Saturday. It's .404 semi chisel with bumper links, measures about .050 on the drivers, maybe well worn .058? Never seen .404/.050 before??? Anyway, I don't remember a saw around here with .404 except maybe an old McC Dad had when I was very young, mid to late 70s sometime. I've got .404 saws now, but this chain is from "back in the day".

In it's native habitat:







A better shot. It's rusty for sure, but not frozen tight. Probably from being inside out of the elements. Grabbed a couple tractor toolbox wrenches for you to test on as well.






If this evapo rust works as well as you guys are saying, I'm gonna have to get some. How many gallons do I need to dunk an 88 Chevy?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 1, 2013)

Dammit, Philbert! Here I go subbin' to another one.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Philbert (Oct 2, 2013)

Have done a few more challenge chains but postings got blocked by the virus thing. And my main computer is going in for some work, so they will be delayed a bit.

But quick points:

*** EvapoRust has worked well for me on SURFACE rust. On a few chains I have had to go back and clean up deep spots with naval jelly and a stiff brush.

*** 'SuperClean' has been working better for me than 'Purple Power'. They are not the same. SuperClean and some of the other 'purple' cleaners have sodium hydroxide (lye) in them, for better or worse.

Will post some more case studies soon!

Philbert


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## w8ye (Oct 2, 2013)

Be sure and get all that lye out from around the pins when you are done or it will keep on working


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## half_full (Oct 3, 2013)

per the thread referenced in post #18 by Philbert, I ordered the oxalic acid from ebay. My minimal research on rust removal indicated this would be ok for chrome if one followed the instructions.
BEFORE








AFTER








You can see the oa made the center cap usable again but not perfect. You can also see that I need to scrub my wheels... The center caps are a cheap chrome product so it obviously shows the chrome was compromised where the rust occurred. Had I done this earlier, it may look better as a final product.

I used 1 to 2 teaspoons of the oa powder per gallon of water. So, the 5 pounds I ordered will last a lifetime. I soaked for about 4 hours total but could have gone longer.
I also soaked a pair of pliers that was so rusty it would not open. After one day of soaking it works as it should. The pliers were greasy when dunked. I recommend degreasing anything that is going to get dunked.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 3, 2013)

*It can be done*

I just saved three Stihl chains that were rusted beyond belief, but I have no Pics. One had brand new teeth on it and was worth all the effort. I soaked them all 24 hrs in 6% vinegar. That knocked off all the rust. Then I gave them a simple soap and water bath with laundry detergent and a scrub brush to get rid of more crud.

Finally, I soaked them overnight again in diesel fuel and gave them a final brushing. Yes, some of the chrome finish is gone, but after touch-up sharpening, they cut and performed very well. Mission accomplished. The owner was astonished. He figured they were gone geese.


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## exSW (Oct 3, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> If this evapo rust works as well as you guys are saying, I'm gonna have to get some. How many gallons do I need to dunk an 88 Chevy?




There wouldn't be anything left


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## Philbert (Oct 3, 2013)

Oxalic Acid arrived today!

Will try it out soon and post results when the site stabilizes a bit, and I get my main computer back.

Philbert


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 3, 2013)

Hey now, the roof ain't too bad.


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## Philbert (Oct 4, 2013)

Philbert said:


> EvapoRust has worked well for me on SURFACE rust. On a few chains I have had to go back and clean up deep spots with naval jelly and a stiff brush.



Done several more chains, but still a little nervous about doing big posts with pictures.

EvapoRust has yet to prove itself to me for more than surface rust. Tried it on a bunch of drill bits that had surface rust on their (MT#1) shanks. After a few hours soak and some rubbing with a ScotchBrite pad it mostly came off. But also came off of an un-treated bit with a ScotchBrite pad, and neither polished them like new like a ScotchBrite _wheel._

Also, not getting much action out of the used solution. Tech rep on the phone said to use it until it looks black. But a second batch did not show much action after 4 hours in used solution the color of apple cider.

It is a thinner viscosity than Naval Jelly, so I am sure that it penetrates better between the links of a frozen chain.

So , . . . . . jury is still out on this stuff. If you try it, do it with open eyes (and splash goggles!).

Will start experimenting with the Oxalic Acid method soon and report back (hopefully with photos!).

Philbert


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## andydodgegeek (Oct 4, 2013)

Interesting thread Philbert.


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## Moparmyway (Oct 5, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Have done a few more challenge chains but postings got blocked by the virus thing. And my main computer is going in for some work, so they will be delayed a bit.
> 
> But quick points:
> 
> ...



I am finally able to read some posts without any spam .... and this thread is awesome ! Nice clear pics and details. Some rep for ya too. Keep up the good work !!


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## angelo c (Oct 5, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Done several more chains, but still a little nervous about doing big posts with pictures.
> 
> EvapoRust has yet to prove itself to me for more than surface rust. Tried it on a bunch of drill bits that had surface rust on their (MT#1) shanks. After a few hours soak and some rubbing with a ScotchBrite pad it mostly came off. But also came off of an un-treated bit with a ScotchBrite pad, and neither polished them like new like a ScotchBrite _wheel._
> 
> ...



I tried some ER on some old galvanized nuts and bolts from my dump truck. it seemed to work only slightly better then the vinegar I had next to it. vinegar is cheaper and required no time to locate and purchase.( in the pantry)
I ordered some OA too. Im keepin with ya Philbert but don't have any rusted chains , just other junk/


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## Deleted member 116684 (Oct 5, 2013)

waiting patiently for the next chain...


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## theatermusic87 (Oct 5, 2013)

*Salvaged Chain Success*

The company I work for has a large fleet of tree trucks (30 or so) and every now and then when your truck ends up in the shop you end up being given a "loaner truck" for a couple of days. I found 2 or 3 older 20" .050 chains lying in the bottom of the tool box pretty stiff from rush but still barely useable most likely deemed "too trashed to sharpen," so i grabbed them and tossed them on my truck in case I needed a spare throwaway chain. Fast forward 8 months..

I pulled the chains out of storage in my toolboxes and figured I'd throw them on a saw to see how they cut, however at this point they were frozen stiff. Some PB oil soaking on them for a couple days freed up some of the links, and some gentle taping with a scrench freed up most of the rest. I found using the smaller side of the scrench worked better, because you could strike (very gently of course) on both sides of the cutter head and persuade the tie straps to loosen up a bit. Doing this on all the stiff links worked pretty well, at this point I put it on a saw, left it loose like you would if you had burs on the sides of the drive links, fired it up and gave her a few slow speed spins; tightened the chain up some more and gave her a quick full speed run, took the chain off wiped it down with a rag and presto, almost as good as new. 

Some polite sharpening of the teeth and an adjustment of the rakers and it's now my primary chain on my saw. A day or 2s worth of cutting removed any residual traces of rust.

Was it worth it? The salvaged chains both had 50% or better cutter life on them, so in this case yes, had they been more badly abused I'd most likely make a pass on them. However the extra added bonus of not having to see the fleet manager as often for parts, is definitely a VERY nice bonus


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## heimannm (Oct 5, 2013)

Great work as always Philbert!

No Fish lately but you make a good substitute when I needed a smile...

"and some may just be linear plies of iron oxide"

Great stuff.

Mark


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## Philbert (Oct 5, 2013)

Not able to 'like' threads right now, but I like the posts above.



theatermusic87 said:


> Some PB oil soaking on them for a couple days freed up some of the links



'PB oil' is . . . . ?

Picked up the stuff from Steve NW WI today at a charity firewood GTG. I haven't mentioned other donor names, in case they wanted to remain anonymous, but since Steve already posted photos . . . . 

Philbert


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## dboyd351 (Oct 6, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Not able to 'like' threads right now, but I like the posts above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does he mean PB Blaster?

Nice thread Philbert. You're good at doing things to help the rest of us! (like the Powersharp threads)


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## tedmister2 (Oct 6, 2013)

dboyd351 said:


> Does he mean PB Blaster?
> 
> Nice thread Philbert. You're good at doing things to help the rest of us! (like the Powersharp threads)



Blaster works well on rusty bars, mufflers ect. too.


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## jerrycmorrow (Oct 7, 2013)

good stuff. subscribing. 
got a chain in a tranny fluid bath; been there about 6 months. really wrestled with the links, with two pair of pliers, but kinda got them freed up; sorta. i know i shoulda added some acetone to the bath but didn't cause?????
also had immersed a couple of links in some aerokroil but no joy
not sure i'd ever use it but.....
lots of tooth left so eagerly anticipating your results.


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks Jerry!

This thread needs input on other methods that work, as well as things to stay away from. 

And rust is only one challenge for a chain. Imagine what rusty rocks would do!

Philbert


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## tedmister2 (Oct 7, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Thanks Jerry!
> 
> This thread needs input on other methods that work, as well as things to stay away from.
> 
> ...



Sounds like some before and after photo's are in order eh?


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## psuiewalsh (Oct 7, 2013)

I have thought it would be interesting to have a rack (maybe an old bar section) with a shaft on the end with an old clutch rum and sprocket welded on. You could have a hand crank on it to roll over the rusted links to break them free while keeping the chain in tension.


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## heimannm (Oct 7, 2013)

psuiewalsh said:


> I have thought it would be interesting to have a rack (maybe an old bar section) with a shaft on the end with an old clutch rum and sprocket welded on. You could have a hand crank on it to roll over the rusted links to break them free while keeping the chain in tension.



I have from time to time put a rusty chain on a saw, cranked it up, and force the chain around by poking the bottom of the bar tip on a log. Once you get the chain to move, oiling it up is easy and cleaning it up only takes making a cut or two. If a chain is really stuck bad it may be necessary to work a few kinks out with pliers, or sometimes a hammer with the chain tucked in a bar or in the vice with a slight gap between the jaws. I have plenty of old hard nose bars that I can use to get some old chains moving and I'm not too worried about the bars since I won't be using them in wood anyway.

I have also left really bad chains soaking in my parts washer (mineral spirits) sometimes for weeks at a time but I have never found that to be particularly effective at getting stuck chains freed up.

I am not a patient as Philbert when it comes to getting old chains working again.

Mark


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

A number of guys have posted about forcing a chain around a bar, e.g. for cleaning up burred drive links. I have to think that this is also hard on the bar and sprocket.

I think that it was BobL who posted a device to run his chains at slow speeds while he wire brushed them to remove crud ('Search' is down, but I think it was in one of the chain cleaning threads). EDIT: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/cleaning-long-milling-chains.150461/

Some chains probably need multiple steps, which is why this thread could be really helpful as people post different methods.

If it is just 1 or 2 links that are frozen, it might be possible to mechanically loosen them, or even to break and re-spin them, or replace a few links. I am hoping that some of these less viscous solutions can penetrate enough rust to allow some of the solvents an lubricants in.

Philbert


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## zogger (Oct 7, 2013)

heimannm said:


> I have from time to time put a rusty chain on a saw, cranked it up, and force the chain around by poking the bottom of the bar tip on a log. Once you get the chain to move, oiling it up is easy and cleaning it up only takes making a cut or two. If a chain is really stuck bad it may be necessary to work a few kinks out with pliers, or sometimes a hammer with the chain tucked in a bar or in the vice with a slight gap between the jaws. I have plenty of old hard nose bars that I can use to get some old chains moving and I'm not too worried about the bars since I won't be using them in wood anyway.
> 
> I have also left really bad chains soaking in my parts washer (mineral spirits) sometimes for weeks at a time but I have never found that to be particularly effective at getting stuck chains freed up.
> 
> ...



I would think for cheap, the home made pb blaster penetrant, half acetone, half ATF, would work better than mineral spirits for getting in under rust. then maybe rinsed with mineral spirits or diesel, then run around a chain with baroil.

An electric chainsaw might be useful inside a shop for the "running around" part.


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

zogger said:


> I would think for cheap, the home made pb blaster penetrant, half acetone, half ATF, would work better than mineral spirits for getting in under rust.



Zog,

Got any results with this mix?

I am working in the basement, so I have not experimented much with the petroleum-based solutions.

Lots of guys have mentioned ATF. Might be a 'second step' penetrant, for getting between links, after knocking off the heavy surface rust?

Philbert


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## zogger (Oct 7, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Zog,
> 
> Got any results with this mix?
> 
> ...



I have only used it on rusty stuck nuts and bolts, etc, like PB blaster, but it works for that. Have to use it a lot working on farm equipment here.


Acetone and either ATF or PSF, power steering fluid, half and half.

I guess to avoid stinky in the basement, you'd need to put the chain in a jar or something, add the stuff, and cork it up for awhile.


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## dboyd351 (Oct 7, 2013)

zogger said:


> I have only used it on rusty stuck nuts and bolts, etc, like PB blaster, but it works for that. Have to use it a lot working on farm equipment here.
> 
> 
> Acetone and either ATF or PSF, power steering fluid, half and half.
> ...



There was quite a bit of discussion of that acetone/ATF mix on one of the other threads on freeing up a rusted up/seized saw. Someone even quoted a scientifically designed test where that mixture did pretty well.


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## tedmister2 (Oct 7, 2013)

dboyd351 said:


> There was quite a bit of discussion of that acetone/ATF mix on one of the other threads on freeing up a rusted up/seized saw. Someone even quoted a scientifically designed test where that mixture did pretty well.




Not on topic but an ounce of acetone per 10 gal of gas yields me 3 to 4 mpg. Any additional and it goes back to normal. I am not sure why but I have done this as long as the alcohol has been in the gasoline. People look at me strange when I put a big syringe of fluid in my tank when I fill up.:msp_biggrin:


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

Have to try the ATF thing in the garage. If the chain is frozen it probably won't fit in a jar, but maybe some Tupperware. . . .

Does brand matter? Dextron, Ford, etc.?

If anyone can find that thread, please post a link here. 

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 7, 2013)

heimannm said:


> I have from time to time put a rusty chain on a saw, cranked it up, and force the chain around by poking the bottom of the bar tip on a log. Once you get the chain to move, oiling it up is easy and cleaning it up only takes making a cut or two. If a chain is really stuck bad it may be necessary to work a few kinks out with pliers, or sometimes a hammer with the chain tucked in a bar or in the vice with a slight gap between the jaws. I have plenty of old hard nose bars that I can use to get some old chains moving and I'm not too worried about the bars since I won't be using them in wood anyway.
> 
> I have also left really bad chains soaking in my parts washer (mineral spirits) sometimes for weeks at a time but I have never found that to be particularly effective at getting stuck chains freed up. I am not a patient as Philbert when it comes to getting old chains working again.
> 
> Mark


Use a 5% to 6% vinegar soak instead of mineral spirits for 24 hours. Mark, believe me that works. Watch the bubbles do their stuff. After a strong detergent wash and rinse, soak again overnight in diesel fuel. I've never had to use pliers on links after that to loosen them up. I imagine I've salvaged 50 good saw chains this way that were rusted orange and locked up.

Cheers!


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for the input WD!

Vinegar then oil: sounds like Italian dressing. Any oregano?

Will this work on French and Russian chains as well?

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 7, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Thanks for the input WD!
> 
> Vinegar then oil: sounds like Italian dressing. Any oregano? Will this work on French and Russian chains as well?
> 
> Philbert


Heheheheh. I think so. I salted away about $100 worth of chains today that some loggers gave me for free. Sometimes they forget and leave them out in their trucks in the rain. It doesn't take long for a chain to ice up from rust. I figure the vinegar and diesel fuel costs me about a buck at most. Best part is that you are making something out of nothing. The rusted chains are normally thrown away, and these had almost full cutters on board.

Look at it this way. If I save a dozen or so of these chains, I've saved the price of a new saw.


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## griffonks (Oct 7, 2013)

Zogger's right, his mix beat out all other penetrants in a test. This included my favorite, Aero Kroil.


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## dboyd351 (Oct 7, 2013)

griffonks said:


> Zogger's right, his mix beat out all other penetrants in a test. This included my favorite, Aero Kroil.



Yep, that's what I remember from that thread.


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## zogger (Oct 7, 2013)

Philbert said:


> Have to try the ATF thing in the garage. If the chain is frozen it probably won't fit in a jar, but maybe some Tupperware. . . .
> 
> Does brand matter? Dextron, Ford, etc.?
> 
> ...



I doubt the oily part matters. I would guess you could use most anything like that, even some hydraulic oil. Don't know that for a fact, just sayin'. I would try the acetone and whatever ATF/PSF or whatever is on sale at O'autorileypeppedupboyzone

BTW guys, try the archives link! You can get to all the last posts!

http://www.arboristsite.com/archive/index.php/f-9-p-499.html


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

Wood Doctor said:


> Best part is that you are making something out of nothing . . . If I save a dozen or so of these chains, I've saved the price of a new saw.



*That's a main point of this thread!*

The last few pages have been focusing on rust. But I have seen many chains thrown away because they got pinched, and twisted a couple of links. Once I learned about using a spinner and breaker to replace damaged links or to re-size a loop, the cost of a set was quickly justified .

Rocked cutters can be ground back without burning the chain. Burred drive links can be filed or ground smooth. Etc., etc., etc. It may not be cost effective to do all of these at shop labor rates, but it's really based on the same skill set as sharpening, and understanding how chains work.

I get a lot of satisfaction out of rescuing a chain, aside from the frugal factor.

Other points of the thread are to exchange ideas, and just to try some things with really screwed up chains, that might have some pay off later on in saving a pretty good chain.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

I tried a Google search "_Arboristsite, ATF, acetone, rust_" and got several promising thread leads, but could not link to any of them.

It did bring up several threads on other, mechanical sites. A few points of note:

- one kept stressing that the magic blend is power steering fluid (PSF) and acetone, not ATF (I don't know the chemical differences);
- a good warning about the flammability (explosive) of acetone: I had a friend who had some blow up in his face while he was using some for cleaning and somehow created a spark.

It's on my list.

Philbert


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## angelo c (Oct 7, 2013)

Philbert, have not been able to log on lately.(..linkbucks killing me. Im like a junkie without a fix) but my wife caught me messin in the pantry looking for the vinegar and i had to tell her what i was up to. She said. " toss some baking soda in the vinegar and see what happens" i said...ahhh but dont that make it do the volcano thing..????..so i Let the fizz go away and soaked the bolts in the vinegar and baking soda mix...seems to work better and everything is red from the rust not black like the vinegar and the ER stuff. My oxalic acid stuff just arrived. Thats next up for me. 

So far i saved $10 worth of nuts and bolts with about $20 worth of "stuff" and about 5 hours of "stupid equity" formerly known as "sweat equity"... 

Thanks for the motivation


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2013)

Thanks for the progress report. I will be interested in your comparison between vinegar and Oxalic Acid. The first thing I noticed with OA is a 'halo' of rust powder that formed around the items after a few hours. 

P.S. I work toward domestic tranquility by using a separate set of garage sale cookie sheets, bread pans, cake pans, etc. Also worth springing $2 for a shop gallon of vinegar, just to keep things clean.

I did get 'caught' using the oven (150* for 10 minutes) to bake any moisture out of cleaned chains to prevent re-rusting. I emphasized that these were 'clean' chains.

Philbert


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## tedmister2 (Oct 7, 2013)

angelo c said:


> Philbert, have not been able to log on lately.(..linkbucks killing me. Im like a junkie without a fix) but my wife caught me messin in the pantry looking for the vinegar and i had to tell her what i was up to. She said. " toss some baking soda in the vinegar and see what happens" i said...ahhh but dont that make it do the volcano thing..????..so i Let the fizz go away and soaked the bolts in the vinegar and baking soda mix...seems to work better and everything is red from the rust not black like the vinegar and the ER stuff. My oxalic acid stuff just arrived. Thats next up for me.
> 
> So far i saved $10 worth of nuts and bolts with about $20 worth of "stuff" and about 5 hours of "stupid equity" formerly known as "sweat equity"...
> 
> Thanks for the motivation





like too funny


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## angelo c (Oct 7, 2013)

tedmister2 said:


> like too funny



Tedmister... thanks.....im here strictly for the entertainment value ..most of it my own..


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## tedmister2 (Oct 7, 2013)

angelo c said:


> Tedmister... thanks.....im here strictly for the entertainment value ..most of it my own..




Yeah, me too. It is fun to laugh.....even if only in the mirror.


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## Steve NW WI (Oct 8, 2013)

Phil, Google Hagenbrew a bunch of threads from newagtalk will come up. Jon Hagen is the guy that shared the recipe there. ATF is his oil of choice and he and many others there swear by it as a WD40 etc replacement.


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## griffonks (Oct 8, 2013)

Philbert said:


> I tried a Google search "_Arboristsite, ATF, acetone, rust_" and got several promising thread leads, but could not link to any of them.
> 
> It did bring up several threads on other, mechanical sites. A few points of note:
> 
> ...



Yep, the Fire Marshal doesn't like acetone at all. I found this out when my Dad managed to blow up a 5 pound keg of gunpowder, with a spilled one gallon tank of 2-stroke mix that caught fire from his furnace pilot light.

After Mom hauled him to the ER for burns I had to deal with the Fire Dept. They found a can of acetone stored on top of the gas water heater, and a few other problems. this happened just before Halloween so we had him answer the door for the trick or treaters, quite the sight with the half burned face....

I come from a long line of rednecks.... Thanks for taking the challenge Philbert. I am always dealing with messed up stuff, and your sharing is helpful.


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## Philbert (Oct 8, 2013)

Hope your Dad is OK. I keep the flammables in the (detached) garage and the latex paints on the basement. A small amount of acetone in the shop, in a reclaimed nail polish remover bottle. 

Philbert


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## CTYank (Oct 8, 2013)

Not to hijack things, partly to restore some old rocked chains, I got a $100 Northern grinder. So you should be happy, Philbert. 

With zero printed guidance, it took some time & experimentation to find out how to get it to work well and quickly. But it does, quite well in fact. So a couple of trashed chains are at least now decent "stumpers."

At the other end of the spectrum, a grinder is useful with a new chain, to finish up the factory grinding process, cleaning out the gullet so there's less filing when it's time for its first filing.

Just thought you'd like to hear this, Philbert. Of course, Granberg file guide is always in my tool bag. :msp_thumbup:


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## Philbert (Oct 8, 2013)

A decent grinder is an important tool for salvaging chains. Even if you choose to finish the edges with a file. 

A couple of good threads on tweaking the NT grinder, and several on grinding in general. If 'search' is working try 'Oregon 511A'. 

The instruction manual for the similar Oregon 511a grinder can be downloaded from Bailey's website. It is better, but still not very good for first time users. 

Philbert


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## tolman_paul (Oct 9, 2013)

I've used ATF to loosen up a chain that had formed just enough rust that it wouldn't move freely. I don't recall how long I soaked the chain, but it loosened up enough to get it on the saw and then running the chain seemed to do the rest.

Great thread. I've taken a bit more care in storing my chains, but there is always a chance something will happen and I'll rust one out.


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## hangfirew8 (Oct 9, 2013)

angelo c said:


> Philbert, have not been able to log on lately.(..linkbucks killing me. Im like a junkie without a fix) but my wife caught me messin in the pantry looking for the vinegar and i had to tell her what i was up to. She said. " toss some baking soda in the vinegar and see what happens" i said...ahhh but dont that make it do the volcano thing..????..so i Let the fizz go away and soaked the bolts in the vinegar and baking soda mix...seems to work better and everything is red from the rust not black like the vinegar and the ER stuff. My oxalic acid stuff just arrived. Thats next up for me.



Chemically this is a variation of salt+vinegar you just get CO(2) bubbles as a bonus. No harm done but no additional benefit either.



Philbert said:


> - one kept stressing that the magic blend is power steering fluid (PSF) and acetone, not ATF (I don't know the chemical differences);



Both are hydraulic oils, traditionally ATF has a little higher viscosity than PSF, but lately some auto transmissions have called for newer, lower viscosity ATF's that are more like the old PSF except for much more rigidly controlled specs. While lower viscosity may help the penetrating ability a very little, the ability of acetone to penetrate (and bring some oil with it) far outweighs any difference.

I think it comes down to "use what you got", if you have both, "use what's cheaper" or "use the can that's already open", if it's all cheap and open and you have both, use the PSF.



Philbert said:


> - a good warning about the flammability (explosive) of acetone: I had a friend who had some blow up in his face while he was using some for cleaning and somehow created a spark.



Yes Acetone is a flammable organic volatile (read: burns, has carbon in it, and evaporates fast). All those things are also what makes it such a fabulous penetrant and solvent. Use carefully in an outdoor environment and store in a cool dry place away from flame and spark.

If you have time to kill, Google-up "Ed's Red", which is an all-purpose CLP (Cleaner/Lubricant/Protectant). It may be of interest for those cleaning-up and storing saws in high humidity environments and wanting to avoid rust.

HF


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## tolman_paul (Oct 9, 2013)

While Hoppes #9 may have that wonderful smell that brings me back to my first experiences with firearms, Ed's Red is cleaner of choice.

Speaking of which I need to make up a new batch.


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## Wood Doctor (Oct 9, 2013)

Philbert said:


> A decent grinder is an important tool for salvaging chains. Even if you choose to finish the edges with a file.
> 
> A couple of good threads on tweaking the NT grinder, and several on grinding in general. If 'search' is working try 'Oregon 511A'.
> 
> ...


Agree, but I have used files also to save rusted chains after the solvents did their work as posted several times above. However, I have lots of files on hand also. The files need cleaning also.

Nobody ever said that saving rusted chains was a cakewalk. In fact, it's a mess. :msp_razz:


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## Philbert (Oct 9, 2013)

Absolutely. My comment on grinders was especially meant for rocked chains or to bring back those which are so unbalanced that filing would take forever. Also if you spin in replacement cutters and need to take them back a ways to match the others. 

If its just rust removal, a file might only require a stroke or two more than for a regular sharpening. 

Philbert


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## jerrycmorrow (Dec 18, 2013)

so what's the latest on the soaking chain?


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## angelo c (Dec 19, 2013)

Id say the vinegar with some baking soda was the cheapest, easiest and worked well enough to warrant the effort of walking to the cupboard to get some.


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## 67L36Driver (Dec 19, 2013)

What you need is a big ole' Remington that takes 7/16" x .058" chain. Then you will learn to control 'The Force'.


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## fearofpavement (Dec 19, 2013)

vinegar (an acid) and baking soda (a base) when mixed neutralize each other. What is the benefit of using both?


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## Philbert (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks for the interest. I have 'been away' from the site for awhile, due to 'the troubles'. Also having some personal computer issues I need to deal with.

I had shot a lot of photos and collected a bunch of case studies before the problems began, but put that stuff aside. Hopefully, I can dig it back up again in a few weeks.

Also have to take a little time to get familiar with the new forum software etc. Familiar, but different. Plan to be back, and to pick up where I left off.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 20, 2013)

FWIW Philbert, I have used this thread as an example of how some threads maintain certain images while others don't in discussions with one of the admin folks who is also trying to help sort out the lingering issues associated with the site transition. The extended stuff like Photobucket and those types of links are still going to work provided those links are still valid connections to the external resources. 

The inline images that would otherwise be embedded in a post after uploading a file to AS and then inserting it as a pic are what is missing from the transition at this point...and evidently gone forever as I have been told.

In the case of thumbnail images remaining in a post and likely being there from a slightly less than correct file upload procedure in the first place, they can indeed be recovered and put back into place inline as was originally intended by simply changing a few lines in the code. I can float that your way or provide you with a link to the discussion, which has been a bit contentious at times and may not be worth wading through just to learn the method for re-posting pics of thumbnails. I'd just as happily walk you through what I know about it and see if it actually works as advertised. Haven't tried it myself, yet.
I also have them working on the question mark instead of an apostrophe matter in the thread title.


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## Philbert (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks Pogo,

I have been able to go back and edit older posts, including titles, and will try (over time) to replace photos and links in some of my threads, including this one.

Fortunately, the thumbnail photos in this thread have remained intact (maybe because it is a more recent thread?). 

Unfortunately, many links and photos in those linked threads have also been lost, and I have no way to replace most of those if they were not 'mine' - part of the richness of the AS archive.

We will see what we can do!

Philbert


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## griffonks (Jan 9, 2014)

After reading this thread last fall I bought some Oxycylic Acid and tried it out on a Rototiller that I left sitting outside during the flood we had late last summer. When I tried to start the tiller to move it to my shed it was jacked up. Water in the tank, in the Briggs 5 HP carb, in the air filter housing, and the 5 balls in the starting cup were rusted and locked into their resting spots.

The acid worked ok, it did not remove all the rust. I'm not sure that it was worth the hassle of ordering, mixing and disposing it. I have quite a bit more Oxycylic powder left over. The gas tank still has some rust in it even after filling it with acid and water for a week. The starter balls still show signs of having been rusted.

I rebuilt the carb, it sits on a diaphragm on top of the tank, but after using the machine in the spring I'm going take the tank off to try the electric bath rust removal method. I do have a spare 5HP Briggs with a cracked crankcase that I removed from my splitter sitting in a plastic tub that would be a source for parts if I still have rust.


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## Steve NW WI (Jan 9, 2014)

Feeling lucky, Phil? Found under concrete at work while doing some renovations:


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

Next-to-new STIHL chain I picked out of someone's shop trash can because it had some surface rust on half a dozen links and a few tight rivets. Had been sharpened once.

A soak in some leftover EvapoRust, worked the tight links a little, a little brushing and WD-40, and _voila_! Just needs a light touch up on the edges.

3/8" low pro, .050, 61 drive links (?) must have been an 18" bar? Will probably spin it down to 56 DL.

This chain was long enough that I could have spun it down to a usable loop, even if a few of the links were toast. It is a common enough chain that I could also have salvaged portions of it, and spliced it with other, identical chain later on, for the cost of a few pre-sets: _much_ cheaper than buying a new loop.

*WINNER?* - Philbert!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

* UPDATE - POST #26 *

The *wrenches* that Steve NW WI provided were easy to clean - all surface rust. Most of the chemical methods mentioned (vinegar, EvapoRust, oxalic acid) would work. Electrolysis, Naval Jelly, or abrasive buffing (ScotchBrite wheel) would also work, although, they might damage chrome plating (was already missing quite a bit on these wrenches, so that's a toss up).




This was my first use of EvapoRust. Note the 'halo' of removed rust surrounding the wrenches as they soak.

.


The wrenches were still 'less than perfect' wrenches when cleaned. Removing rust does not replace any lost metal or chrome, fill in any pits, etc. They will also rust again unless painted or protected some other way. These were hit with a ScotchBrite pad after soaking.




The *chain* (Challenge Chain #5?) was was coated in uniform rust. When Steve gave it to me, it held it's shape as a loop despite gravity.




I cleaned it with SuperClean, then soaked it in EvapoRust for several days. When it came out I was able to read some of the markings on the chain (Oregon), identify it (.404), and loosen up some of the links. The chain still had a dull appearance - not all of the rust had been removed.




But I was able move enough of the links to fit it in an old peanut butter jar back in late October/early November with a 50% acetone/50% ATF penetrant. Agitated it periodically. Checked it weekly. After a month or so, there was not much difference from when I put it in. Disappointed, but I left it out there in the garage and will check it again once the weather warms up and I can dig it out.




Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

*Challenge Chain Number Three*

(NOTE *** _posted out of sequence due to re-building this thread_)

This prospect was mailed to me by a newer A.S. member due to the earlier thread. The older style links might look cool on someone’s restoration saw from the right era. It had surface rust on several of the links, but all of the rivets rotate freely, which is a good sign.




Purchased a gallon of EvapoRust and soaked the chain in it for 2 hours. Very impressed! All of the surface rust is gone, except for a few spots. Because these spots are so localized, and not on the chrome portions of the cutters, I will just use a few dabs of Naval Jelly on them.




The surface of the metal and the chrome look fine. The rivets look good. The chain has a dull grey appearance, instead of looking shiny, but that is cosmetic, and people say that it will wear off. Wire brushing removes it. If someone wants a shiny chain they can polish it. Maybe if I checked the chain earlier there would be less of this dark coating?





Cleaned up, I can tell that this is a 3/8 pitch, .050 gauge chain, with bumper tie straps that look like a 57 Chevy. Don’t know the brand. Marked ‘L’ and ‘R’ on the left and right tie straps. Marked ‘370’ on the drive links. EDIT: I think this is a Carlton / McCulloch chain.

Little wear on the cutters, but lots of peening on the drive links and the bottoms of the tie straps. Probably run on a worn sprocket; possibly a worn bar. Lots of good diagnostic sketches for chains, bars, and sprockets towards the rear of the Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual (http://www.oregonproducts.com/maintenance/manual.htm ). Will clean up the drive links with a ScotchBrite wheel on a bench motor, then the chain is ready for normal sharpening and a lube job.

*WINNER?* - Philbert!

*LESSONS?* - EvapoRust very promising on surface rust.


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

*Before and After on Some Similar Chains*

Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

*Challenge Chains Number Four A & Four B*

These two chains came in the same box, and looked pretty much the same. ‘Identical’ Mini-Mac chains.




A cleaning in a 'Purple' cleaner containing sodium hydroxide (aka 'lye') provided very different results! One chain cleaned up almost to ‘next-to-new’ condition, and only needs a light, touch-up sharpening. The other looks like a new challenge chain by itself - will have to try one of the rust remedies on it. Maybe grease protects against rust in some cases? Maybe grease hides rust in others? Maybe dirt holds moisture against the metal?




NOTE: This was the first time I actually used the ‘_Purple Power_’ brand cleaner. I first heard about it here on A.S., but found the similar looking ‘_SuperClean_’ product, assumed that they were the same, and have been using that. They also looked ‘the same’. But the Purple Power did not clean as aggressively. A closer look at the label lists sodium hudroxide (lye) on the SuperClean label and not on Purple Power. A second cleaning of the chains in SuperClean convinced me. Some other brands of 'Purple Cleaners' also contain sodium hydroxide, including s_ome_ Zep cleaners, and _some_ Rubbermaid Commercial cleaners - you have to read the labels.

*WINNER?* - Philbert! Got two working chains - one that’s pretty, and one that should still cut.

*LESSONS?*

1) You can’t assume what condition chains are in until you clean them up. Some dirt/grease may clean off; some may be hiding rust!

2) You can't assume how products work until you try them. I like SuperClean better than Purple Power for this application.


Philbert


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## jerrycmorrow (Feb 19, 2014)

good on ya phil. glad to see this thread resurrected. finally got a battery charger. now just got to try it out.


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## Philbert (Feb 19, 2014)

jerrycmorrow said:


> finally got a battery charger. now just got to try it out.



Be careful with the electricity and water! Especially if you leave it running where someone might 'find' it.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 20, 2014)

*A Few More Notes*

Drying chains in the oven to remove any rust-inducing moisture after cleaning with water based degreasers (garage sale cookie sheet). 15 minutes at 150-200*F.




Brushes: the brass refinishing brushes (left side) do not hold up well for removing rust. I like the smaller, stainless steel scratch brush (second from the right) from a local welding supply house.




Oxalic Acid - comes in powder form. I bought this from a large Internet vendor named after a river in South America. Pretty inexpensive, even with S/H. Came in a zip-lock bag. I store it in a plastic jar. Initial impressions for rust removal are positive. More gentle than some other acids. Leaves a green coating after a while, which can be left on or scrubbed/brushed off.




Philbert


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## CR888 (Feb 20, 2014)

l was thinking a stainless wire brush on electric die grinder and just 'kiss' the tie straps and drive links but don't touch cutter.Followed by wd-40 and wallow!


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## Philbert (Feb 20, 2014)

I think that it was BobL (?) who posted photos of a jig he made a few years back for running a chain with a cordless drill while he wire brushed it ? Something like that. Had to do with that weird wood they cut Down Under.

EDIT/UPDATE: link to the post http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/cleaning-long-milling-chains.150461/

Link to his YouTube video!!! 


The chemical cleaners seem to work better for dirt, grease, tar, pitch, etc. The chains don't have to look shiny and pretty, but all the links need to move, oil, etc.

I think that rust can be a bigger enemy of chains than rocks.

Philbert


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2014)

If your electrolysis method is lifting the Cr plating that mean that you have connected the object onto the wrong terminal. If it is connected the right way you won't lose any metal from the object.


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## BobL (Feb 22, 2014)

BobL said:


> If your electrolysis method is lifting the Cr plating that mean that you have connected the object onto the wrong terminal. If it is connected the right way you won't lose any metal from the object.



FWIW I have not used my chain cleaner (which I made for removing pitch) since I made it. I now use the "load the chain with lots of oil after the last cut" method of removing pitch. By the time I come to sharpen the chain the pitch is softened enough to remove with a soak in degreaser. If I use canola our two dogs will lick any accessible chain on a bar and suck on the end of the aux oiler for hours.


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## Arrowhead (Feb 22, 2014)

Very good thread!!
I've had great results using the acetone/atf mix in the ultra sonic cleaner for extremely rusty chains.
My US cleaner heats to 180 degrees, sometimes I'll run them for a few hours.
For mildly rusty chains, I use Purple power in the ultra sonic cleaner, but your purple stuff sounds better with the lye.


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## blades (Feb 22, 2014)

Soak your rust frozen stuff in a mix of acetone and atf ( cheapest stuff you can find is fine). 50/50 mix ( atf=auto trany fluid) This does not remove rust but will penetrate and break it free. Recent tests against all the fancy penetrating oils on market- this age old mix is still the best by a huge margin.


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## Philbert (Feb 22, 2014)

BobL said:


> If your electrolysis method is lifting the Cr plating that mean that you have connected the object onto the wrong terminal. If it is connected the right way you won't lose any metal from the object.



I attach the _Negative_ terminal to the good part that I want to '_lose_' (-) rust.

I attach the _Positive_ terminal to the sacrificial part that I want to '_gain_' (+) rust.

It may have been due to weak plating, but the chrome clearly spalled off in the electrolysis. Sabre chain. '_Looked_' OK before. The chrome is electroplated on; does not seem unreasonable to me that it could degrade the plating? 




I have a bunch of un-rusted 'scraps' of STIHL and Oregon chains - maybe I will throw some of those into the electrolysis bath sometime and see if any chrome flakes off. It might have been the rust or age of that other chain, etc.



> FWIW I have not used my chain cleaner (which I made for removing pitch) since I made it.



Interesting to hear - still a very cool rig. As noted, I now use a sodium hydroxide based degreaser which works very well. Wasn't sure if your pitch would respond as well, or if we had different 'crud' on our chains.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 22, 2014)

blades said:


> Soak your rust frozen stuff in a mix of acetone and atf ( cheapest stuff you can find is fine). 50/50 mix ( atf=auto trany fluid) This does not remove rust but will penetrate and break it free. Recent tests against all the fancy penetrating oils on market- this age old mix is still the best by a huge margin.



As noted in a few posts above, I have one of Steve NW WI's chains soaking in it now for about four months, after some initial de-rusting. Did not show improvement after the first month, so I just left it in there over the winter and will check it again when it warms up.

Nothing will work on everything. And some things might be too far gone. But it's good to have lots of options in your 'bag of tricks'!

Philbert


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## BobL (Feb 25, 2014)

Philbert said:


> I attach the _Negative_ terminal to the part that I want to '_lose_' (-) rust.
> I attach the _Positive_ terminal to the part that I want to '_gain_' (+) rust


That's fine, now why the Cr plating would lift still has me thinking. What electrolyte did you use?


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## Philbert (Feb 25, 2014)

BobL said:


> What electrolyte did you use?



Arm & Hammer washing soda (sodium carbonate). 

Philbert


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## Philbert (Apr 1, 2014)

Philbert said:


> . . . I was able move enough of the links to fit it in an old peanut butter jar back in late October/early November with a 50% acetone/50% ATF penetrant. Agitated it periodically. Checked it weekly. After a month or so, there was not much difference from when I put it in. Disappointed, but I left it out there in the garage and will check it again once the weather warms up and I can dig it out.



*Update - 5 months (+/-) later . . .*

Checked the chain after soaking in this for 5 months or so. No change. Still have the same number (15) of frozen rivets/pivot points. Rest of the chassis is only in fair condition, with some chrome missing on some cutters. Chain could still be mounted on a display saw, but not run.

Not saying that this stuff doesn't work - saying it did not work for me, on this chain, this time. Plus it stinks! Guys that work around diesel fuel or tranny fluid all the time might get used to it, but these fluids have a very strong smell, and I would prefer to use other stuff if I have the option.

*WINNER?* - Rust.

*LESSONS? *
- Better to prevent rust than try to remove it.
- ATF/acetone home brew may work in some situations, but don't expect miracles.

Anybody got a new challenge chain? Hopefully with some other issues than rust?

Philbert

_EDIT: I think that I now could free up the remaining, frozen links, based on postings in later threads. However, the chrome on these cutters is badly damaged, so it is not worth the effort for me at this time. Maybe if it was a unique or unusual chain for display purposes._


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## jerrycmorrow (Apr 1, 2014)

time to get the plyers and hammer out


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## Yukon Stihl (Apr 2, 2014)

Try putting it in a jar of Antifreeze.I heard it would penetrate rust after a while.
Some where i have a jar of Antifreeze with a gun bolt and few other parts in it.A friend ad found a rifle in a lake,after the 60/90 days for someone to claim it the cops gave it to him.Well it was pretty rusted so he gave it to me,i did get it apart and heard about the Antifreeze....then moved....then moved,and most of my stuff is still in storage.Every once in a while i wonder how it's working.
Thomas


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## w8ye (Apr 2, 2014)

A few years ago I bought a 031 and it came with a half dozen RSC 72 DL chains that had been cutting in creosote. They were fuzzy black. I squared up the most worn out one and gave it to a friend. He cut cookies with it here and there on different saws he had worked on in some wood he had out back.

I looked at it a couple months latter and you would never know it had been covered with burned creosote? Why it was a nice square ground chain that looked like someone had taken care of.

So if you can get the links free, sharpen and put it on a saw!


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## Philbert (Apr 2, 2014)

I can dissolve creosote with a solvent and have a clean chain underneath (maybe). Rust is a different animal - even if I 'remove' it, that does not replace the missing metal.

This chain is not in that good of condition - might have been made usable for projects where you did not want to risk your 'good' chains.

It did let me test some of the practical limits of EvapiRust and the ATF/acetone home brew.

Philbert


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## Philbert (May 2, 2014)

*Rust Never Sleeps (Challenge Chains 6 A, B, C, D?)*

The chains in these photos were received encased in crud - could not see what I was working with. Cleaning them with the caustic degreaser went pretty fast, and revealed a lot of rust. Left them in the oxalic acid (OA) solution for a day or so, followed by a stiff brushing with a stainless steel scratch brush. Now they can be evaluated.

Surface rust is pretty much eliminated by this point, or a few remaining areas can be identified for additional attention. Easy win. The green color is due to the OA process - it can be scrubbed off (or maybe I can call them 'camo chains' and sell them to the Army?).




I am finding that a number of chains have heavy, crusty rust on a portion of the loop, and only surface rust on the rest. Since heavy rust eats metal, and frequently damages the chromed portions of the cutters, that portion is probably not salvageable for regular use. It makes more sense to punch out these bad portions, and to save the good portions to make smaller loops, or to mate up with identical chain.




Many rusted chains clean up fairly well on the outside surfaces, but still have frozen links. I have tried a few ways to free these, and once you get a little bit of movement, they often loosen up quickly. My current method is to hold the adjacent drive link tightly in the corner of my machinist's vise jaws, then tap the tie strap lightly with a small, tack hammer or a flat punch and ball peen hammer. A drop of thin oil (e.g. '3-in-One', or penetrating oil) really helps when you move the joint back and forth. If you have to tap a cutter, you might want to place a small block of wood in between to reduce the risk of damage.

This can be a lot of work if a lot of links are stuck, and may not be worth the effort, unless the chain is special, or is in generally good condition otherwise.







I tried cleaning one of these chains in my ultrasonic cleaner (USC) with 'Purple Power'. Turned on the heat and set it for 8 minutes (the longest cycle). It degreased the chain, but it did not seem to do a significantly better job than the caustic cleaner in the sink, and took a lot longer. Plus, it was messy to clean up the USC afterwards. This might be a good option in some cases, but will not be my first choice.

*Winner?* Philbert!
I got 1 good, usable chain; 1 usable, end-of-life chain; 38 links of donor chain; and a scrap chain that I can experiment on with my grinder and electrolytic rust removal system, without guilt.

*Lessons Learned?*
- a vise, tack hammer, and 3-in-One oil help loosen up frozen links.
- some rust is not worth the effort, especially if it is deep, or if the cutters or chrome are damaged.
- some chains that arrive at Philbert's 'no-kill' chain shelter are, unfortunately, already 'dead'.
- partial loops can often be harvested from rusted chain loops for transplant.
- USC works on some chains, but was messier, and took longer for me.

Philbert


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## zogger (May 2, 2014)

Yo, never tried it, just a thought...ever hit those frozen rusted ones with a pass from a propane torch? Nothing excessive, just a pass for a sec. I've done it to rusty nuts and bolts before, just a little heat expansion then cool off contraction breaks the rust barrier.


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## Philbert (May 2, 2014)

zogger said:


> ...ever hit those frozen rusted ones with a pass from a propane torch?


Interesting thought Zog. I do dry most chains in a 150-200*F oven after cleaning and rinsing.

It might make a difference whether the plates (tie straps and drive links) are rusted together, or if the rivets have actually rusted inside the drive link holes.

Anyway, still better to keep the chains from rusting in the first place.

Philbert


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## Philbert (May 5, 2014)

*Who Hasn't Thought About This?
*
Found this while degreasing a '_mostly_' Oregon chain. Yep. It's a Pop rivet!

Philbert


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## zogger (May 6, 2014)

Philbert said:


> *Who Hasn't Thought About This?
> *
> Found this while degreasing a '_mostly_' Oregon chain. Yep. It's a Pop rivet!
> 
> Philbert



I'd be chicken to run that thing.


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## zogger (May 6, 2014)

Now I can see an emergency cobjob out in the field with like a finish nail cut to size and hammered on both sides to make it kinda sorta like a rivet. but even then...uhh..I don't like busted or thrown chains.


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## 7sleeper (May 6, 2014)

Have you ever taken an angle grinder with a steel brusch to a rusty chain? That should clean the rust off in seconds. 

7


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## Philbert (May 6, 2014)

zogger said:


> Now I can see an emergency cobjob out in the field with like a finish nail cut to size and hammered on both sides to make it kinda sorta like a rivet. . . .



_One_ problem with these approaches is that chain rivets are not a uniform diameter along their length. The hole in the drive link is larger than the holes in the tie straps, and the wider, hardened part of the rivet acts like a bearing. If you substitute a straight rivet, the drive link will be slightly offset, and not line up correctly with the drive or nose sprockets, causing extra wear.






7sleeper said:


> Have you ever taken an angle grinder with a steel brusch to a rusty chain?



Wire wheels are an option for surface rust. BobL even developed a fixture for cleaning gunk off of his chains with one (see YouTube link in Post #98).

When I use a wire wheel on my bench grinder, I often find wires sticking out out of my safety goggles afterward, so they are not my favorite method. Plus, they do not get in-between the links, around the rivets, etc. I have been using the oxalic acid soak (3 ounces of dry powder to 1 gallon of water), followed by hand brushing of the outside with a wire brush.  It leaves a green 'patina', but that is cosmetic. I have also used vinegar (acetic acid), which leaves a black coating (and a pickle smell!); and 'EvapoRust', a commercial (and expensive) product.

Phosphoric acid ('naval jelly' here in the US) penetrates deeper rust, but cautions against damaging chrome. So I use that sparingly on remaining pits that are not on the chromed cutters.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (May 6, 2014)

I thought I would add a little arithmetic to Philbert's thread. Chains for 36" bars with 3/8" pitch contain 114 drive links apiece. If you connect two together with a master link, you can obtain one chain with 228 DLs. That equals 72 + 72 + 84.

So, if a logger gives you two chains that fit his 36" bar, they can be salvaged with three master links to obtain chains for two 20" bars and one 25" bar. The only thing you need to look out for is that the two chains for the 36" bar have two adjacent cutters positioned on opposite sides so that you can link them together without the loss of a drive link.

I've salvaged over a dozen chains this way for use on smaller firewood saws.


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## Philbert (May 8, 2014)

*Please Clean My Gullets!*

Even chains need to visit the dentist now and then! (Wonder if the previous user blamed poor cutting by this Vanguard chain on the low kick-back feature?)

Philbert


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## w8ye (May 8, 2014)

I've got one newer Vangard chain and it cuts pretty nice.


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## Wood Doctor (May 8, 2014)

A few of my vintage chains don't really need a vinegar or mild acid soaking because most of the contamination is grime and grease rather than rust. I thought about soaking in diesel fuel or just ordinary gasoline but I thought best to get another recommendation. Can you give me one or two other solvent possibilities? opcorn:


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## heimannm (May 8, 2014)

Why not just cut a piece of wood or two and turn the oiler way up?

Mark


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## Wood Doctor (May 8, 2014)

heimannm said:


> Why not just cut a piece of wood or two and turn the oiler way up?
> 
> Mark


That means mounting the used chain onto a bar and that the chain fits the bar. The chain I am referring to is a long loop and being salvaged from a logging operation. No chain has less than 114 DLs and they fit a 36" bar. It would be nice to work with clean lengths.


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## Philbert (May 8, 2014)

heimannm said:


> Why not just cut a piece of wood or two and turn the oiler way up?



This has been mentioned a number of times here on A.S. If it works for people, I have no problem with that. Here are some of the reasons why I do it the way I described.

1. If I have _one_ chain already mounted on _one_ saw _and_ a pile of clean wood conveniently located nearby, that might be an option.
- As Wood Doctor notes, I may not have the correct bar/saw/sprocket for the chain I am cleaning (the chain may belong to someone else).
- Or, I may be cleaning it to identify it's condition (rust, damaged links, etc.) before re-sizing it to fit a bar/saw/sprocket that I do have.
- If I have multiple chains to clean, and they are not already mounted on saws, it takes much more time to mount each one to clean;
- I tend to do these in batches of 4 to 6 (or more) chains at a time, which would be slow to mount, run, dismount, etc.
- Some of the chains I salvage and restore will not run through a chainsaw until I have done a few more steps (e.g., de-rust, free up links, de-burr drive links, etc.).
- Some chains are so grungy that I do not want to run them through my saws, putting dirt, grit, rust, and grease (not just bar oil) into my bar grooves and sprockets, then requiring me to clean the saw.
- I live in the city and do not have piles of nice clean wood stacked outside my door.
- I live in the city and cannot run chainsaws at night, when I tend to do this chain cleaning in the basement.​2. Running the chain in wood may clean the side plates and parts of the cutters, but cannot get in-between the links, around the rivets, etc. the way that chemical cleaning can.
- This may not be an issue with normally run chain, but can be with older, neglected, rescued/salvaged ones.
- This type of cleaning has helped locating rust and freeing frozen links.
- It would be similar to the difference between wiping off sweat with a towel after a hard day of work, versus taking a shower or bath.​3. It really makes a difference to me in being able to see damage, repairs needed, identifying marks, etc., such as the Pop rivet in the earlier post, mixed chain links spliced together, and other oddities that come with used chain. Again, these may not be the same issues if it is _your_ chain on _your_ saw and you are the one that just used it (or who made, and already knows about those interesting repairs).

Philbert


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## SawTroll (May 8, 2014)

Philbert said:


> *Please Clean My Gullets!*
> 
> Even chains need to visit the dentist now and then! (Wonder if the previous user blamed poor cutting by this Vanguard chain on the low kick-back feature?)
> 
> ...


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## Philbert (May 8, 2014)

*Hittin' the Skid*s

This chain has life left in it's teeth, and will still cut, but is approaching _end-of-life (_EOL) status due to worn out tie straps. 

Tension too tight? Not enough oil? 

Philbert


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## Steve NW WI (May 9, 2014)

Phil, there's a techical term for that one. I learned it down south: "That thar chain is done slap wore out."

For a literal translation to Minnysodan, "Ya, Sven, you shore got your money's worth from dat chain dere."


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## heimannm (May 9, 2014)

"...most of the contamination is grime and grease rather than rust..."

Cleaning and oiling chains my way is why I am so popular with my neighbors...

Mark


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## Philbert (May 9, 2014)

Steve NW WI said:


> "That thar chain is done slap wore out."



It's interesting to see how different chains wear out. I have seen some where the cutters are worn back to nibs, but the drive links and tie-straps look new.

On others, sprocket and tension damage jump out. 

Dull or damaged cutters are the easiest thing to fix in some cases. 

Philbert


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## Philbert (May 10, 2014)

*Hydrogen Embrittlement ?*

_*** WARNING! Science Fair project ahead!

"Hydrogen embrittlement is the process by which various metals, most importantly high-strength steel, become brittle and fracture following exposure to hydrogen."_ - Wikipedia
You can read more of the technical stuff on line. Key points to me are that hardened, high-strength steels (think saw chain cutters) are more at risk following exposure to acids (think rust removal).

*Background*

I am not a chemist, or a metallurgist. But when I had cutters from an older chain, that I had soaked in oxalic acid, crack when punched out of a chain loop, I became concerned that the acid treatment might be the cause of, or contributed to the cracking.




I looked around on line to get some information. Some articles/posts discussed differences between _mineral_ (hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric, phosphoric, etc.) and _organic_ (acetic, oxalic, citric, etc.) acids. Some recommended heating metals to 350 to 400 degrees F for 4 hours, after removing them from an acid solution to remove excess hydrogen.

Again, you can read more about this stuff if you are interested. I wanted to find out if it was an issue for my rust removal procedures on chainsaw chains. So I retreated to "_Philbert's Research Laboratory / Laundry Room_" to do some quick-and-dirty R-and-D.

*Procedure*

I took a single piece of scrap Oregon 91 chain, which was in good shape, with no apparent rust, but had the cutters worn off to the nibs. I punched/broke this into 4 sections and had no cracking of any cutters or tie straps in this process. I soaked these sections for 12 hours in one of four, different rust removal treatments (each has been described in earlier posts):
1. vinegar (acetic acid)
2. oxalic acid
3. EvapoRust
4. electrolytic (battery charger)
5. _citric acid EDIT: repeated this test with citric acid a few weeks later, with similar results)_

(Note: I did not run any of these 10-12 drive link sections through nice, clean wood as a tratement, as they were too short).

After rinsing, and a light wire brushing, I baked them for 15 minutes in a 150 degree F oven to remove residual moisture - this is how I normally do it; not sure that I want to bake them for 4 hours. Afterwards, I punched out several cutters and tie straps from each sample, and compared them to the chain before treatment (making the sample sections) as the control. I deliberately punched more aggressively than normal to promote any cracking.



*Results*

No cracks developed in any of the samples.

I also did not notice any loss of chrome in the electrolytic sample, like I did with an earlier chain.

*Discussion*

This chain was not as old as the chain whose cutters cracked, and was not previously rusted. Older/different chains may have different metallurgy. Rust affects metal, and removing rust does not necessarily repair that damage. The chemical reactions with rusted chains may be different than those with non-rusted chains. It would take a quantitative lab, and a qualified metallurgist to do some real experiments and explanations.

Here are my findings/take-aways:
1. Some older, rusted chains may be brittle, or become embrittled by the rust removal method chosen. They may be OK for a display chain, but not necessarily a working chain.

2. To play it safe, use a weaker organic acid solution (if you use acid), and do not leave the chain in longer than the minimal amount required. Brush, rinse, and dry promptly.

3. Electrolysis may only damage chrome plating that is already weak or damaged(?). I will have to experiment with this more, but I would not use it on an older, special chain (e.g. a display chain) just to play it safe.

4. Some of these chains are essentially worthless without doing anything, so it still makes sense to try.

Philbert


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## Philbert (May 23, 2014)

*Challenge Chain #7 - Just Scratching the Surface*

I wanted a few feet of the older style 'scratcher' chain for a long time, just for 'show-and-tell' purposes, but it has been surprisingly hard to find, even in used condition. So when an A.S. member sent me a few rusty pieces, I decided to add them to the 'Challenge Chain' thread.





I don't plan on running this chain, but want pieces where the links at least pivot. Some of this chain is in condition similar to Challenge Chain #5 (starting at post #26), where the rust covers everything and has permeated between the links. The first 9 or so links on the larger piece (upper photo - as received) pivot - the remainder are frozen or very stiff. I am doubtful that I can save any of the smaller piece, as the links themselves appear to be spalling.

Per my 'standard procedure' I first degreased the chain in a commercial cleaner - turned the solution pretty black. I can now read that it is Mall chain. I can also see the extent of the rust and the deterioration of the smaller piece.

I don't know if this chain has any chrome plating (anyone know?), but it certainly is not obvious, like on modern chain. And since it will not be used for cutting, I decided to put it into the electrolysis bath for a day or two to see what comes out.

Philbert

_EDIT: Please see update in Post #139, below
More info on Scratcher Chain: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/_


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## Philbert (May 24, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> A few of my vintage chains don't really need a vinegar or mild acid soaking because most of the contamination is grime and grease rather than rust. I thought about soaking in diesel fuel or just ordinary gasoline but I thought best to get another recommendation. Can you give me one or two other solvent possibilities?



Sorry I missed this. I have been using the water-based, commercial de-greasers with sodium hydroxide, followed by a thorough rinse in water, and drying at 150 -200F for 15 minutes. Works fast, without fumes. An old toothbrush helps for really dirty chains. Wear gloves and splash goggles. Coat/saturate with WD-40 or some other light oil after to prevent rusting.

For smaller things, I have used paint thinner, in a glass bottle with a loose lid, inside a water bath in my ultra sonic cleaner (USC). I used to use paint thinner a lot for degreasing bicycle parts, before all of the water and citrus based degreasers became more common. I would save the dirty solution in an old thinner container and let the dirt and grease settle to the bottom, then pour off the clear stuff and re-use.

Gasoline has some obvious flammability issues, and diesel fuel stinks if you use it inside your house. Paint thinner is still flammable, but has a higher flash point than gasoline. It also has a distinct odor that will travel, but is not as strong or as durable as gas or diesel. It will still absorb through your skin like most organic solvents.

Philbert


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## CR888 (May 25, 2014)

Philbert, your thread is very interesting so thank you for all your effort, l'm sure many will benefit from your fine detailled analysis of the semi-ruined chain.l have a question l believe that you would be well qualified to answer, 'is there a paticular brand of chain that holds up better than others and is noticably better quality'? CR888.


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## Philbert (May 25, 2014)

Hard to say. 

I am sure that manufacturers have changed alloys over the years, along with improvements in metallurgy and plating technology, etc. So old chains may not be indicative of current chains. 

I have seen some old chains where the cutters appeared to be fully chromed. But a chain that holds up to rust better is not necessarily one that cuts better. 

In an earlier post I showed 2 identical looking chains covered in gunk: one cleaned up like new, and one was heavily pitted under the gunk. 

So my advice is to buy chains based on how they cut, and store them so that they don't rust in the first place (clean, oiled, off of the ground, etc.).

Philbert


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## CR888 (May 25, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Hard to say.
> 
> I am sure that manufacturers have changed alloys over the years, along with improvements in metallurgy and plating technology, etc. So old chains may not be indicative of current chains.
> 
> ...


Thanks Philbert l think your right with the prevention is better than cure approach with chain maintenance. I just wanted to see if there was a stand out performer. Where l am bar oil is around $15+ per liter so l use canola oil with good results. The best chain cleaner l have ever used was caustic based. Not so good for rust but sap ect would just dissolve and rinse off.


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## Wood Doctor (May 25, 2014)

I'd like to report one interesting thing that I found out last year (and the year before) at a GTG. The chains that many men compete with in competition are chains that others have already thrown away. That's because the chain's cutters are then sometimes very small from several sharpening efforts.

The competitors' reasoning is that the old chain is much lighter in weight but still easy to razor sharpen and cut like a bandit. Rakers (depth gauges) are accordingly dropped way down. These competitors avoid new chains like a plague, preferring to sharpen an old chain for competition cutting. Please pardon me if I gave away a secret. I may never be invited to another GTG for reporting this observation.

Forum, take it from there.


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## Philbert (May 26, 2014)

*Challenge Chain #7 - Results*

Below, please see the scratcher chain after some extensive rust treatments, including: electrolysis; hand scrubbing with a stainless steel 'scratch brush' (appropriate, right?) shown in post #96; freeing rusted links by tapping and lubricating with 3-In-One oil and 'Knock'Er Loose' as shown in post #112; soaking in EvapoRust; more scrubbing.





Would not win _'best-in-show_', but I have 17 for the original 18-1/2 links on the larger section mostly freed up. A few of the rivets need additional attention. A lot of additional rust and pitting was revealed under the grime.

I am not familiar with the high torque saws that used these chains, so I cannot say if it would hold up as a working chain. The 7 links of the smaller section are too far gone, and would crumble if I did much more, after removing the surface rust with electrolysis.

I may try to polish or remove some more of the pitting. I just got a ScotchBrite 'Radial Bristle Brush' at a store close-out which might be appropriate for a chain of this scale.

_UPDATE: I let some penetrating oil set in the sticky links for several days, then worked them some more, brushed off some apparent burrs, tapped the stuck rivets with a punch, and soaked them again in some citric acid solution that I am trying (4 tablespoons/2 ounces dry powder per gallon of water). I now have 17 free (but pitted) links!_




*WINNER?* - Philbert (mostly). I have a section of scratcher chain for 'show-and-tell' purposes that I did not have before.

*LESSONS?*
- Still better to prevent rust than have to remove it.
- This chain was a lot of work, but worth it to me because it was hard to find.
- Sometimes, a combination of methods may be needed.
- You cannot tell the condition of a chain until it is clean.


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## Philbert (May 26, 2014)

*Bits 'N Pieces*

A few of the left over pieces - look like things sifted from an archeological dig. Drive links must have been made in Texas? Note how the rust treatments don't necessarily penetrate between adjacent pieces if they are frozen together - which is why an iterative (soak, tap, brush, soak, tap, brush, . . . ) process may work better than a single rust removal method. And, as always, removing rust does not mean that you are replacing metal that has been lost.

Interesting how the cutters have extended 'tails' to keep them from rocking back too far - is this because there is no depth gauge on these chains?

Also interesting how the center rakers look similar to the reduced kickback bumpers on many modern chains. Easy to see how we get '_raker_', '_depth gauge_', '_bumper_', etc., confused when discussing chains.



Philbert


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## Philbert (May 29, 2014)

*WD-40 Rust Soak
*
EvapoRust sells for around $30 a gallon at local auto parts stores. This WD-40 product was listed at $40 a gallon at the only industrial supply place I could find that carried it.

http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/rust-remover/

I assume that they are comparable. Wanted to try them side-by-side. 

Found it today at a local farm store for $22, plus a $10 manufacturer's rebate (hang tag on the jug)! Hopefully, it will become more available at hardware and home centers, bringing the price of EvapoRust down as well. Also wanted to give other guys a heads-up on the rebate deal.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (May 30, 2014)

I can usually get a 20% off deal for EvapoRust at a local Harbor Freight store. That brings the gallon price down to about $24. I also have a feeling it will drop further. A gallon would last me for years. Best part about these chemicals is that they work faster than vinegar and tend to leave the chrome on.

I picked up four more "bone pile"chains from my logger buddy last week. Three were pulling right and all of them needed the rakers dropped. Most of the time he files onsite rather than grind sharpen. So, I traded him three Pferd files for the used chains. Once again, I made three shorter loops from two of his long ones with practically no waste. At least 70% of every cutter remained and not one cutter was knocked off. Drive links had no burrs at all, and rust/grime was minimal.

So, after grind sharpening and dropping the rakers, I now have six more loops that I rate in good condition.


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## Philbert (Jun 1, 2014)

*Citric Acid*

Citric acid was mentioned in one of the posts. Anybody have hands-on experience using it for rust?

The local wine/beer making store has it for $4.50 for 8 ounces ($9/pound). eBay has it 5 pounds for $15 shipped ($3/pound). Interested to hear comments on how it has worked or not before buying another product.

Thanks.

Philbert

_UPDATE: bought 5 pounds of citric acid powder off of eBay for $15 shipped. Trying it (4 tablespoons/2 ounces of dry powder per gallon of water) on a few odds and ends._


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 1, 2014)

I received a tip today that soaking in toilet bowel cleaner also gets rid of rust. However, I have a feeling that almost all of these cheap acidic products will also knock the chrome right off, similar to common vinegar.

I suppose we should discuss whether a chain really needs chrome to work. Many sawyers have told be that chrome on cutter teeth is nothing but window dressing. Chrome adds nothing to the tooth's cutting performance. Hmmm... I have several sharp knives in my shop that have no chrome. They cut perfectly.


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## Philbert (Jun 1, 2014)

Wood Doctor said:


> I received a tip today that soaking in toilet bowel cleaner also gets rid of rust.



Cheap toilet bowl cleaners often contain hydrochloric acid (HCL) - same thing as muriatic acid. Gotta read the labels and/or MSDS.



Wood Doctor said:


> I suppose we should discuss whether a chain really needs chrome to work.



As I understand it, the harder chrome protects the top and side plates against abrasive wear. Oregon sells some of their chains with a thicker chrome plating for abrasive use (old railroad ties, certain woods, etc.). At the same time, the chrome plating itself is brittle, and can't hold an edge, so you don't want it too thick. If you look closely, they don't plate the entire tooth, only the upper part of the top and side plates.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 4, 2014)

This may be another Evapo-Rust competitor. $25 a gallon at a local home center. 

Philbert


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## wkeev (Jun 13, 2014)

I got about 10 loops of 404 chain in a cooler from a tree guy in saw deal . They all had several links that were rusted up . I put them in a container of used motor oil and let them soak for about a month . I took them out the other day and let them drain off on a piece of cardboard . I checked them today and all the links were loose . I hung them up to drip off some more and then will put in the parts washer . It seems like an easy fix if you can soak and forget about them for a while.


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## dl5205 (Jun 13, 2014)

I've enjoyed this thread. I've used many of the techniques talked about here over several years for parts other than saw chain. I first ran into the Electrolysis method on an old Tractor board. In a pinch, I have even used recycled Battery Acid, (I DO NOT Recommend This!) followed by A LOT of water as a 'quick-and-dirty' method on a non-critical tool. 

While it's very unsafe, I've been guilty of using 'old' gas as a solvent (Again, NOT SAFE!). And 'old' diesel is very effective for some things if you have time to let it soak.

I didn't take the time today to re-read every post, and I hope this is not redundant, but below is a link to Ed's Red, a highly-thought-of home brew.

home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.htm

Happy Rust Fighting!


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## Philbert (Jun 13, 2014)

Thanks for the nice comments.

If '_Ed's Red_' is the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix I tried it on an early Challenge Chain (#5?). Did not work for me after 4-5 _months_ of soaking on that chain.

Nothing works on everything, so it's good to have a few tools/tricks/techniques to try!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 13, 2014)

*Citric Acid*

I have also been trying citric acid due to some favorable postings and comments. Bought a 5 pound bag of dry powder off of eBay for $15, shipped. Have been mixing it 4 Tablespoons (2 dry ounces) per gallon of water and have had pretty good initial results. Seems to go after the rust and does not discolor the metal as the oxalic acid (turns it green) and acetic acid/vinegar (turns it black) did.




Notice this drive link from Challenge Chain #7. The rust attacked the exposed metal, but the area around the rivet hole must have been protected by grease or oil? As always, removing the rust does not replace the lost metal, hence the pits (this was one of the heavily rusted pieces shown in Post #140).

Maybe I should try ascorbic acid (vitamin C) next? Dip the chain in orange juice?

Philbert


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## dl5205 (Jun 14, 2014)

Philbert said:


> ....If '_Ed's Red_' is the 50/50 acetone/ATF mix...



Ed's Red is eq. pts. Dex III/ K1/ Acetone/ Aliphatic Mineral Spirits (Or 'Stoddard Solvent or Varsol), optionally with some Anhydrous Lanolin added.

Probably not as effective for the specific purpose of 'de-rusting' saw chain as the EvapoRust, but it's an interesting 'home brew' that some folks swear by. I've known about it for years, but never mixed any up, even though I have/ have had most of the ingredients. Seeing this thread today reminded me of the stuff, so I Googled the recipe.


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## 7sleeper (Jun 14, 2014)

Hey Philbert

As you know I am an advocate of the HF type grinder and I finally had time to do a comparison.

I hope you don't disaprove of me showing my comparison in your thread.

Cutting is done with a 2000W Makita electric chainsaw (it was Saturday afternoon and I didn't want to upset the neighbors).

First part is brand new Stihl chain.
Second part is after sharpening with HF type electric grinder.
Third part is after filing with Husqvarna roller guide and brand new round file 4.8mm. 5 strokes per tooth. I didn't have a new 4.5mm on hand as Stihl usually requires.

Wood is some type of fir/spruce/pine construction wood.

Checked the rakers and filed them after every filing.



7


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## Philbert (Jun 14, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> I hope you don't disaprove of me showing my comparison in your thread.



You just wanted to show off your legs!

The question of which way to sharpen, or which grinder to use, really does belong in another thread. There is always the question of skill involved: I believe that _you_ can get better cutters with a HF grinder than a lot of people can with a file; and others can do better with a Husqvarna roller guide than some can with an Oregon grinder, etc.

As far as this thread goes, for salvaging difficult chains, I advocate the use of a grinder over a file when taking heavily rocked chains backed to clean metal, or when evening out cutters that are all over the place in length or angles. Which grinder is a matter of preference (or availability).

BTW - I like your Makita (I have an older model) and saw horse.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 14, 2014)

One has to wonder if the Timberline sharpener would do better than all three of these, except maybe a brand new Stihl, Carlton, or Oregon chain.

I agree that this video belonged in another thread. I use my freebee HF grinder as a dedicated raker (depth gauge) dropper. The HF grinder is not a professional piece of equipment. In time, it will not hold up, and very few chain sharpening shops use them because of that weakness.


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## 7sleeper (Jun 15, 2014)

I will allow myself one last answer(sorry Philbert for derailing your thread). Of course this el cheapo is only designed for the occasional homeowner user and not the proffesional.

And Philbert I understand completely that you are envious of my legs... 

7


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## Philbert (Jun 20, 2014)

*Challenge Chain #8*

Somebody hit something and cracked off 2 teeth on this STIHL .325 chain.






Rest of the teeth looked new (sharpened once). Easy fix. Since we use a lot of this chain I had 2 donor teeth to spin in and save a $20 chain.

*WINNER? *- Philbert!

*LESSONS?* - Save those extra drive links, cutters, tie straps, etc.


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## 7sleeper (Jun 20, 2014)

But Phil,

There was still a lot of life left in those cutters. 

7


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## Philbert (Jun 24, 2014)

*More Citric Acid*

Here are some 'before' and 'after' photos of a estate sale 'C'-clamp with surface rust. I 'washed' it first under running water with a stainless steel brush to loosen and remove surface stuff. Then washed it in a degreaser to make sure that the acid contacts the rust, and not grease, dirt, etc. Overnight soak in citric acid (3 ounces / 6 tablespoons powder per gallon of water), followed by hand brushing with the same stainless steel brush.





Note that this did not occur by soaking in citric acid alone. But I was able to clean down to the metal after soaking, and remove stuff that would not brush off before. The wire brush reached into details that the ScotchBrite wheel would not reach, and did not remove as much metal - the ScotchBrite wheel will actually smoothen and polish rough metal.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 27, 2014)

*A Note on ScotchBrite Wheels*

I don't work for 3M, but have used a number of their abrasive products. I have mentioned them several times in a number of threads, and wanted to clarify some of the differences.

As a disclaimer, other companies also make '_non-woven abrasive pads and wheels_', but like '_Kleenex_' brand facial tissues, we mostly refer to these as '_ScotchBrite_' products. These are basically synthetic fabric of different densities, coated/impregnated with different abrasives (typically silicon carbide or aluminum oxide) in different grits, and formed into pads, wheels, etc. Just like wire wheels come in different styles, and coarse or fine versions; and different buffing compounds can be on different density fabric wheels; there are different applications for these on saws and chains, and did not want to confuse anyone with my general references.



Some of these are formed into hard wheels for use on a bench grinder or buffer. They have the density of a hard, felt wheel, and may be called 'Polishing' or 'Deburring' wheels. These are great for removing rust on flat surfaces, like tools, but not on contoured surfaces like chains. They will remove a lot of metal if you are not careful! I use them to remove burrs on drive links, and to round over depth gauges after filing/grinding to height.





Some of these are noticeably softer, and may be mounted on mandrels for use on a drill press, hand drill, right angle grinder, die grinder, Dremel tool, etc. These will conform somewhat to a contoured shape, although, not as much as a soft, wire wheel. I have been using these to remove some of the cosmetic staining/coatings on chains left behind by acid rust removal treatments. You may also be able to make your own versions of these by stacking dishwashing type pads on a mandrel.




Lots of types, sizes, and grits available! I also use some '_no-scratch_' hand pads for cleaning other parts of saws and ***.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 29, 2014)

* Challenge Chain Group #9
*
I received a group of chains that appeared routine: 2 appeared to have light surface rust; the others were just grimy.




I did my normal cleaning, and got a surprise: the standard cleaning removed almost all of the surface rust on the first 2 chains, _AND_*, *revealed rust under the grime on most of the other chains! A little switch-a-roo!

Removed the rust with citric acid.

*WINNER? *- Philbert! I got several usable chains.

*LESSONS?* - (old one) - You can't tell what you've got until the chains are clean.


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## Red Amor (Jun 30, 2014)

DIESEL SOAK TURNS EVERY THING BLACK BUT RINCES OFF NICE , AND SOAKS RIGHT IN TO FREE UP ANY THING JAMMED ;o))
I admit Ive never tried it on chain but not doubt will at some stage , never needed to really sorry it looks as Im yelling , just didn't notice at first dint feel like retyping hah:O))


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## Philbert (Jun 30, 2014)

Red Amor said:


> DIESEL SOAK TURNS EVERY THING BLACK BUT RINCES OFF NICE , AND SOAKS RIGHT IN TO FREE UP ANY THING JAMMED



I had limited success with soaking in the ATF/acetone mix (discussion starts around page 3 and runs through page 6). Plus diesel fuel stinks - can't use it in my basement.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jul 2, 2014)

*Challenge Set #10 - Unhappy Surprise*

I have not used my router for several years. Apparently, when we had a plumbing leak a few years ago on the second floor, some of the water followed a pipe down to the basement, and into my router bit case. Several of the bits, bearings, screws, etc were caked in rust, and had apparently been like this for a while. Hard to photograph then accurately, but yes, they looked that ugly. Over $100 in bits ruined?





Threw some of the screws and bearings into the recycling can. I can't sharpen carbide bits, but figured that I should at least try some of the chain rust removal methods on these bits. Cleaned in a degreaser, brushed off the loose rust under running water. The carbide surprisingly looks OK on most bits, but some of the backing steel is pretty nasty. A new bit, still covered in that rubbery stuff was also OK.

Dropped 'em into a plastic jar with some used EvapoRust. We will see.

*Preliminary Lessons?:*
- Be careful where you store stuff. Like Sesame Street teaches: _look, up, down, over, under, around, between . . . . _
- Those plastic containers that are supposed to keep water out, hold water sometimes!
- High speed steel has no sense of humor when it comes to rust . . .


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## Wagnerwerks (Jul 2, 2014)

You need an ultrasonic cleaner.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jul 2, 2014)

oregon vanguard chain give it the aerial burial philbert it isn't worth the hassle ( middle chain )
on chain group 9 post 160


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## Philbert (Jul 2, 2014)

Wagnerwerks said:


> You need an ultrasonic cleaner.



Have one. Might be one of the things I try. 

Philbert


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## Wagnerwerks (Jul 2, 2014)

I do my old chains in mine and it knocks the rust right off.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 2, 2014)

Wagnerwerks said:


> I do my old chains in mine and it knocks the rust right off.



What do you use as a solvent/solution?


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## Wagnerwerks (Jul 2, 2014)

I use water and 2 cups of LAs Totally Awesome from the dollar store. Best degreaser I've used. I do have a pretty peppy cleaner.


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## Philbert (Jul 3, 2014)

Wagnerwerks said:


> I use water and 2 cups of LAs Totally Awesome from the dollar store. Best degreaser I've used.


_LA's Totally Awesome_ cleaner works well to remove dried on grass from string trimmers, etc. Surprised how hard that stuff can be to remove from plastic. The trimmer heads can be hard to thread and wind when they get gunked up, so it helps to clean those periodically, aside from any aesthetic reasons.

Philbert


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## Wagnerwerks (Jul 3, 2014)

Good tip!


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## Philbert (Jul 6, 2014)

*Challenge Set #10 - (continued)*

I started with _used_ EvapoRust, because the stuff is expensive, and they tell you to use it until it is '_used up_'. A day made some difference. Scrubbed some with ScotchBrite, then rinsed, and placed them in some new WD-40 Rust Soak. Checked on them after a day. Scrubbed some more. Left them in another day. Rinse and repeat. . . .




I tried to arrange the bits the same as in the original photo, with the worst side up. Surprisingly (?) the rust had little effect on the carbide cutting tips, or on the one, solid carbide bit. There was some damage and pitting on the high speed steel (HSS) cutters, and on the shafts/bodies of the bits.

The hardware store bits (Vermont American, etc.) appeared to be affected more than the more expensive, commercial bits (Bosch, etc.), although, this was not a controlled experiment, and the bits might have been exposed differently

The WD-40 Rust Soak started out completely clear, unlike the amber EvapoRust, but also turned black eventually. It also turned the non-carbide part of the bits dark - something I had not expected. I have a call in to WD-40 on this. Maybe the carbide affected the reaction? _*See note in later post*_

*Winner? *Tie. Philbert saved some expensive bits; rust took some of the less expensive ones

*Lessons?*
- Different metals (chain steel, HSS, carbide, etc.) are affected differently by rust, and by rust removal methods.

- WD-40 Rust Soak appears to be a competitive product with EvapoRust, at least at a Coke/Pepsi level.


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## jerrycmorrow (Jul 7, 2014)

hey phil, wish you had done one with electrolysis. just sayin; the poor man's method. i just cleaned up a found, rusted wrench. not new looking but, it wasn't new either. pix later


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## Philbert (Jul 7, 2014)

jerrycmorrow said:


> hey phil, wish you had done one with electrolysis. just sayin;



It's good to have choices, different methods, and a variety of tools in the tool box for different situations.

I thought briefly about electrolysis (and even have some new graphite electrodes to try!). But, frankly, I was so depressed when I found those bits that I wanted a simple answer to: "_any chance these can be saved?_" I thought that the EvapoRust/WD-40 Rust Soak products would not discolor the bits, and would at least be a good starting point. They worked slow, especially in the deep pits. Might have followed up with other methods if I did not eventually get the results pictured.

I was also not sure what electrolysis would do to the carbide, or to the brazed joints. It would have taken a little creativity to hook up each of those bits, especially without a lot of clean metal visible. And I was not in a mood to spend a lot of time experimenting right then (I was in the middle of a woodworking project where I needed to use the router!).

Look forward to seeing that wrench.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jul 11, 2014)

*Disappointing Response from WD-40*

A few posts back I noted how _WD-40 Rust Soak_ removed rust from some router bits, but turned the remaining metal dark. This was disappointing, as the EvapoRust-type products are not supposed to do this? Is took several contacts with WD-40 to even get an answer, which they stated was '_over exposure_'. They did not elaborate on what this meant and have not responded to my follow up. They told me that the coating would '_wear off'_ or could be '_sanded off_'.

Here's the problem. The product did not remove the rust right away. As with EvapoRust, it worked pretty good on the surface stuff, but not on the deep pits. I removed the bits every few hours, scrubbed off any loosened rust I could with a ScotchBrite pad, picked at pits with a sharp probe, rinsed, and placed in back in solution. The bits turned black before the rust was gone. 'Over exposure'?

So, this stuff is not magic. It may still stain your object, depending upon the type of metal, just as the various acids I have tried (acetic, oxalic, citric) if left in long enough. Some metals do not seem to stain even after extended exposures - I don't know if this is due to carbon content or some other metallurgical difference. I can't predict in advance. although the older chains I have de-rusted (Oregon, STIHL, McCulloch, etc.) seem to stain more readily than the newer Oregon and STIHL chains I have cleaned.

Use these chemicals for the least amount of time that you can, and keep the concentrations of the acids low, to reduce the risk of staining. If cost is a factor, and staining is not, the acids are a less expensive way to go.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Aug 9, 2014)

*Twists and Bends - Challenge Chain #11
*
Thankfully, something other than rust!!!




Some things are easy to see. This Oregon Vanguard type chain looks like it might have been filed once. But there was clear damage to one cutter, and to the tie strap and to the tops of the drive links right behind it. Pretty easy fix options: shorten the loop; _or_, spin in a few new links; _or_, grind off the broken cutter and use it as 'occasional skip chain'; etc. Only real concern would be if the damaged tie strap and drive links hang up going around sprockets.




Harder to see (and photograph!) is a section of bent and twisted links on the opposite side of the loop. Since chain is kinda slinky, even bent or twisted links will flow across your fingers when the chain is not mounted. Try running it through a bar groove and it's a different story. I assume that the story on this loop had to do with it getting pinched, and maybe someone trying to twist and pull the guide bar out? Maybe the broken cutter got slammed into something when the chain got pinched? I don't know for sure.

I like to flag hard to see defects with twist ties so that I don't have to discover them again.

If one or two drive links, or tie straps, or cutters get bent, you can replace those, just like the broken cutter above. You can _try_ to straighten a bent link. But sometimes, even a small, hard to see bend can hang up a chain, or make it hard to spin a link into a loop.

Since this is fairly new chain, and since Vanguard is a fairly common chain, it makes sense to use this as a donor chain, or to salvage the good sections to lengthen a similar loop.

*WINNER?* Philbert! Got 60 +/- links of next-to-new donor chain.

*LESSONS?*
- Count the good links, not just the bad ones.
- Newer chains make good donor chains, because you have to grind down the links to match: harder to do with older chains.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 9, 2014)

Philbert said:


> *Twists and Bends - Challenge Chain #11
> *
> Thankfully, something other than rust!!!
> 
> ...



Good idea. I'll remember that.

As for the damage, and the distinctly odd and different nature at the two sections, I'm putting my money on a wedge...either before a pinch where the tooth is broken by unintentional contact, or after a pinch in an attempt to free the bar and chain at the bent section, or both.

Either way, I'd hate to see the bar!

Good stuff as usual, Philbert.

BTW, how's the graphite electrode approach working out?


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## Philbert (Aug 9, 2014)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> BTW, how's the graphite electrode approach working out?


On a back burner for now . . .

Philbert


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## Philbert (Sep 15, 2014)

*Challenge Chain #12*

Things have been slow re: Challenge Chain submissions. This one was not so much a 'challenge', as a basic exercise in chain cleaning and restoration. Dried on gunk that is pretty common on many chains - I think that it is a combination of bar oil and wood dust.




A shampoo in 'Super Clean' removed most of the gunk, and revealed some light, surface rust. A brushing with a stainless steel scratch brush left me with this (still wet):




*WINNER?* Philbert! A 70 link loop of nice Oregon chain (3/8, .050, semi-chisel) with a lot of life left in the cutters. No signs of damage, abuse, or excessive wear. The links move freely after cleaning. Some slight, additional wear on the heels of the cutters and tie straps which may be the result of running a dull chain (some cutters almost have a negative hook profile):




Dried in the oven; just needs to be sharpened and re-lubed.

*LESSONS? *Not much new with this chain: when you find systems/methods/tools that work for you, use them until you find something better.

Philbert


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## 7sleeper (Sep 15, 2014)

Hey Philbert,

next time try out a new technique and you will be finished in a few moments. Use a torch and burn it hot for a few seconds and then dump the chain into some oil. Finished. The chain will move nice a easily again and no need for any cleaning whatsoever. I use recycled engine oil for this. 

7


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## Philbert (Sep 15, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> next time try out a new technique and you will be finished in a few moments. Use a torch and burn it hot for a few seconds and then dump the chain into some oil. Finished. The chain will move nice a easily again and no need for any cleaning whatsoever. I use recycled engine oil for this.



What kind of torch do you use? How do you know that you are not overheating the chain? Love to see some photos/video of it the next time you have an opportunity. Please post it in this thread to share.

Philbert


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## 7sleeper (Sep 15, 2014)

Last time I used the running oil furnace at my FIL place. Running oil furnace has a blue flame about 30-40cm long! I held the chain on a piece of steel through the service door and went down into the flame and up again and it was smoking nicely. Off into the oil bath and finished. Time in the flame was the amount I needed to go once completly one way and then the other way and out. Took less than a minute! Was resharpening his chain collection for the contra's, etc.

If I had a chain like this at home I would simply use a butane torch and go slowly once up and down the chain. Contact time is much to short for any "overheating" fears. When the chain is smoking it's "well done" and ready for the oil bath.

What I forgot, don't do this inside.... Don't ask why I know. Took me at least a hour to get the smell & smoke out of the basement at my FIL's place! 

7


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## Philbert (Sep 28, 2014)

Not a 'challenge', but a 'scrounge' score!

Was at an estate sale, and apparently, the saw had already gone to a neighbor. But these chains were left behind in the shed. Got them for $.50 a loop.

'_I guess Dad bought new chains instead of sharpening them_' (explaining the several, empty Carlton boxes I also found).

70 DL loops of 3/8, low profile Carlton chain that may never have seen a file.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Dec 14, 2014)

*Challenge Chain #13 (?)
*
I recently received this chain from one of our members. 3/8 low profile, .043, 50 DL, semi-chisel. I can use a 34 DL loop of this chain on a power pole pruner.



It is a STIHL chain with dimpled rivets and ramped depth gauges. Must be an older chain? I have only seen these types of depth gauges on Oregon 'Vanguard' chain.




Note the damaged cutters. Must have hit a rock? Abrasion goes back over half the top plate on some of the cutters. Others are virtually un-touched (not shown). Often I see damage on only the Right or only the Left cutters - this chain has equal opportunity damage! If most of the cutters were like this, it would not be worth saving.

Since I need to cut 16 drive links/8 cutters out of the loop to fit the short bar on my pole saw, I can choose the section with the most damaged cutters to remove, and maybe have to slightly grind back one or two cutters with less damage. Got a pre-set at my local STIHL dealer (they call it 'baby chain').




Chain after cleaning, before shortening the loop.

*WINNER?* Philbert! Got a usable STIHL chain for my pole saw in a less common size.

*LESSONS?*
- Damaged links are usually grouped in the same area of the loop.
- It is often easier to 'save' a chain when spinning it down to a smaller loop, than trying to repair or replace damaged cutters individually.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 14, 2014)

Dimpled rivets eh? 
Looks to me like about double the drag on sides of the chain when those are sliding through the wood.
....all that extra angular geometry and surplus tangential contact surfaces annnnd so forth.
Depth guides look like they'd be a bit tougher to pull too.

Basically, every little bump, nook and cranny, on the chain that's worn shiny, 
is a drag/friction point.

Edit: I got a sore leg and it's making me grumpy & nit picky.


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## 7sleeper (Dec 14, 2014)

That's OK! Everyone has a grumpy day now and then.

7


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 14, 2014)

Looks like it cleaned up nice though!
If We get to have 'em back, I'll say lets put a carburetor cleaning challenge on Philbert.


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## Philbert (Dec 14, 2014)

(Different union)

Philbert


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## Cedar Row (Dec 16, 2014)

Anyone ever try TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) as a cleaner-solvent on chainsaw parts? I have used it to clean recycled heart pine lumber and remove paint , but never thought to try it on metal. It mixes with a lot of water, so it may not work so well on chainsaws.


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## Philbert (Jan 3, 2015)

*Just Because You ASHed!
*
In another thread, we briefly discussed how lye (sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide) can be leached from wood ash. There are lots of articles on the Internet on how to do this (hardwood ashes are better). Lye is used for soap making, drain cleaning, and other uses. It used to be commonly available in hardware stores, but now must be ordered from chemical supply houses. It is extremely caustic and corrosive, so care must be used in handling it.

I have mentioned how cleaners/degreasers with sodium hydroxide on the label worked better than those without. So the idea was that, _maybe_, ashes could be used for cleaning greasy chains? I did not have any really good challenge chain candidates. This Sabre chain (dual depth gauges!) had some grease on it, but not as bad as a lot of chains I get.




For a very unscientific experiment, I scooped some ashes out of the ash bucket and knocked out the bigger chunks. I have no idea what species of wood this was: I am a firewood scrounger and burn a lot of mixed stuff. I mixed the ash with _hot_ tap water to make a grey solution that was more liquid than slurry, and set the chain in it for about 15 minutes, swishing a few times. Something must have happened. because I could see a light oil slick develop on the top. Took out the chain and hit it with a toothbrush, and a fine wire brush.




Definitely made a difference! It took more bushing than with the commercial cleaners, and was not as clean (lots of grease left on the brushes), but not too bad for a first try!

This would probably work better with a little more care: choose the wood species used for the ash; sift it more carefully; monitor the PH level with PH paper or some type of detector; etc. The on-line sources tell you to boil down the ash water to concentrate it, but that is a whole 'nother undertaking. I will probably stick with the commercial cleaners, but this could work somewhere where a degreaser is needed.

Philbert


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## Cedar Row (Jan 4, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Just Because You ASHed!
> *
> In another thread, we briefly discussed how lye (sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide) can be leached from wood ash. There are lots of articles on the Internet on how to do this (hardwood ashes are better). Lye is used for soap making, drain cleaning, and other uses. It used to be commonly available in hardware stores, but now must be ordered from chemical supply houses. It is extremely caustic and corrosive, so care must be used in handling it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for trying the ash/lye experiment. It is always interesting to know about alternative uses of wood burning byproducts. I would think that a refined process of lye creation would be useful if you needed a large quantity of degreaser for one-time use. Or store a large quantity. Guess the only advantage to ash/lye is the cost.


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## Jan-Sietze (Jan 4, 2015)

For removing rust I use kitchen vinegar or white vinegar.

To get rid of fats and oil industrial cold degreaser works fine.
Let soak a few nights should be sufficient.


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## NewToStihl (Jan 4, 2015)

I'm REALLY excited this thread popped back up. I got a saw a few days back that had been sitting for at least 3 years. It was fitted with a 1/2" chain and I was horrified to see a section of the chain rusted & seized. I shot it with some PB blaster and figured soon I would start researching to see if it could be resurrected, and then the answer fell into my lap!

Can't wait to try some of these techniques. I would hate to have lost a 1/2" chain...


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## Philbert (Jan 4, 2015)

Cedar Row said:


> Guess the only advantage to ash/lye is the cost.



Might find yourself in a situation where some of the other products are just not available? In one of the YouTube videos on sharpening the guy states that he just used plain (purchased) lye and hot water to clean chains before sharpening. Might be cheaper than commercial degreasers? Might be harsher?



Jan-Sietze said:


> For removing rust I use kitchen vinegar or white vinegar.


Vinegar works, and was one of the methods I tried in my early posts in this thread. It is easy to find and pretty safe to use. I turned some metals black, which may or may not be a problem.



Jan-Sietze said:


> To get rid of fats and oil industrial cold degreaser works fine. Let soak a few nights should be sufficient.


Lost of cleaners and degreasers available: solvent based, citrus based, water based, etc. Some people do not want all of the grease removed, but want to leave a protective film on the metal. The sodium hydroxide cleaners work _fast_ - 15 to 20 seconds on most chains. But they strip off all of the oil. So I rinse the chains well and dry them quickly in an oven to prevent rusting, then re-coat them with a light oil (WD-40) after sharpening to lubricate the rivets and protect the the chains from rust.



NewToStihl said:


> I'm REALLY excited this thread popped back up. . . Can't wait to try some of these techniques. I would hate to have lost a 1/2" chain...



Please share your results (with '_before_' and after '_photos_')! I have been able to de-rust a number of chains, and free up a lot of seized links, but can't promise you that they will always be usable chains. Removing rust does not replace lost metal, so you could be left with weak spots. If only a small section of the chain is seized, you might want to consider replacing just that section with donor links from another chain.

Philbert


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## NewToStihl (Jan 4, 2015)

Philbert -

Given that I now consider you the resident expert on chain salvaging , would you be willing to make a recommendation on which technique(s) to try if I post close pics of the chain?


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## Philbert (Jan 4, 2015)

NewToStihl said:


> . . . would you be willing to make a recommendation on which technique(s) to try if I post close pics of the chain?



Absolutely. And I promise that it will be worth what you pay for it!

Philbert


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## NewToStihl (Jan 4, 2015)

I apologize - I'm struggling to get a nice photo with my phone. If you need something better I can bust out the DSLR and try to get some quality close-ups. Thankfully it's a fairly short stretch of the chain that affected, but that short section does look pretty bad...


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## Philbert (Jan 4, 2015)

From the photos, it looks like about 10 drive links are heavily rusted - the deep pitting shows metal that is lost. If you are planning on running it, the best thing to do would be to break out that section of chain and spin in new, matching links. The chrome is gone from some of these cutters, making them a loss, and rivets are probably weakened, even if you free them up. I am assuming that a saw that runs 1/2" chain has a lot of torque and will put a lot of tension on the chain.

For the rest of the chain, start with the most gentle methods and work up as needed. I would soak it in a commercial degreaser, to remove any crud and uncover any more rust which may be hiding there. This will also help clean out crud between the links. Brush it vigorously with a stiff brush, preferably a fine metal brush to clean out gunk around the rivet heads, under the cutters, etc., and to remove any light surface rust. An old toothbrush can be used on the chrome parts to minimize scratching. Dry the chain if using a water based degreaser. Then you can assess what else is needed.

If you want, you can soak the rusted links in one of the rust removal solutions in earlier posts. You might save a couple marginal links. You mentioned using PB Blaster on some frozen links. I found that it was easiest to free these up by holding the drive link in a vise and tapping on the tie straps (see Post #112) along with penetrating oil.

Philbert


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## Jan-Sietze (Jan 4, 2015)

Interflon EM56+ works fast enough for me... 
http://www.interflon.com/us/products/707/interflon-degreaser-em56-

To prevent rust I put the chains in the 'normal' engine oil.


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## NewToStihl (Jan 4, 2015)

Thanks!

Until I looked closely at the chain for those pics I didn't realize just how bad a few of the cutters were. I know there are still a few sources for Stihl 1/2" chain, but it might be challenging finding tie straps - are they still available from Stihl?


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## Philbert (Jan 4, 2015)

NewToStihl said:


> I know there are still a few sources for Stihl 1/2" chain, but it might be challenging finding tie straps - are they still available from Stihl?



Looks like Oregon chipper chain to me. You will have to find NOS ('new: old stock') or used chains from collectors on sites like this, eBay, etc. There are parts floating around.

Philbert


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## NewToStihl (Jan 4, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Looks like Oregon chipper chain to me. You will have to find NOS ('new: old stock') or used chains from collectors on sites like this, eBay, etc. There are parts floating around.
> 
> Philbert



Yeah, sorry, don't know why I said Stihl . . . it's Oregon chain.


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## Philbert (Jan 16, 2015)

*Not Really a 'Challenge'
*
These chains arrived at '_Philbert's No-Kill Chain Shelter'_, looking to be re-homed. Just a bit grungy, and some guys don't like low-kickback chain.



Cleaned them in the conventional manner with a commercial degreaser (no ashes this time!):




One surprise: it does not show in the photos, but the second chain from the top had some areas of rust underneath the grease, and about 9 of 50 links are frozen. Some could loosen up pretty easily with penetrating oil, and a little movement. Two sections have a bit heavier rust that might be weak. This is a fairly common chain (Oregon 90VG), so I can save the good sections as 'donor links', or shorten the loop down to fit my pole pruner (34 drive links) for the cost of a few pre-sets.

*WINNER?* Philbert! Got some usable low-profile chains.

*LESSONS?*
- You can't tell what you have until you clean it!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2015)

*Scuffed Scratcher*

I wanted some pieces of scratcher chain just to show people. This loop was fairly clean (_especially compared to the piece in Post #133!_), with no apparent rust. It does have significant side abrasion, as noted on the cutter side plates and the rivets.

I don't really know how to properly sharpen scratcher chain. This one has four different cutters: Right side cutter; Middle-Right raker; Middle-Left raker; and Left side cutter. I presume that they need to be jointed (same height) as well as filed for cutting edges. But the abrasion on the outside cutters looks like it would require a good part of the tooth to be filed/ground back, in order to get a clean bevel at the far, outside edges of the side plates. I don't know if this is possible or practical, so I will clean it up a bit more and keep it as it, for show-and-tell purposes.

More on Scratcher Chain: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/scratcher-chain.271236/

*WINNER?* Draw. I wanted a chain for display, not for use on a saw - it is alright for that, but probably too worn to run.

*LESSONS?*
- Some types of damage may be harder to repair than others.
- Sharpening 'vintage' styles of chain is a different skill set than modern cutters.

Philbert


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## Cedar Row (Jan 23, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Scuffed Scratcher*
> 
> I wanted some pieces of scratcher chain just to show people. This loop was fairly clean (_especially compared to the piece in Post #133!_), with no apparent rust. It does have significant side abrasion, as noted on the cutter side plates and the rivets.
> 
> ...




Neat chain. Wish I had one to hang in my shop with all the other old stuff.


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## Philbert (Feb 3, 2015)

*Would I 'Lye' to You?
*
In earlier posts I mentioned that cleaners with sodium hydroxide ('lye') worked fast for cleaning grease off of chains. Lye has commonly been used in oven cleaners, drain cleaners, soap making, bio-diesel production, and (ugh!) certain types of food preparation. 'Red Devil' brand lye used to be readily available at most hardware stores, but is a bit harder to find lately. Food grade lye is available on Amazon and eBay, along with chemical supply houses.

I found a one pound bottle of 'pure lye' in the drain cleaning aisle of a local home center (the one where _'you save BIG money'_) for under $5, so I decided to try it. It makes me a bit nervous in its pure state, because it is very caustic: it will eat your skin and could cause severe eye damage if splashed. I wore rubber gloves and splash goggles.




I was taught in chemistry class to add the chemicals to the water (_'do what you oughta'; add acid/caustic to water'_), to minimize splashing, and to start with a weak solution, building to a stronger one, instead of the other way around. So I mixed in 3 teaspoons (1/2 ounce) to a quart of warm water (equals 2 dry ounces per gallon). Had to stir it quite a bit for the beads/crystals to dissolve - avoid splashing! I don't know if the food grade stuff dissolves easier. Swish the chain around, toothbrush action, rinse really well, dry in the oven, re-lube with WD-40.




Worked pretty well, but this chain was not too bad to start with (scratcher chain from post #204, above). Not sure if there are disadvantages to using pure lye, or advantages of the other chemicals in commercial degreasers - maybe they help with other types of dirt or grease? I also guessed at the concentration: one source said use 4 ounces per gallon - I used _half_ of that, and might try even less next time, so that I am not dealing with as caustic of a solution. Hope to get some greasy chains to try again!

*WINNER?*
- Looks promising for grease.
- Dirt cheap, compared to commercial cleaners.

*LESSONS?*
- Lots of options for cleaning chains!


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## Rx7man (Feb 3, 2015)

For freeing rusty stuff, I like putting it in a suitable container (#10 coffee can for chain) and filling it partway with a diesel/oil mix, then pretty much boiling it.. it may catch fire, but that's no big deal if you're prepared for it (not around other flammable stuff).. heat it and cool it a couple times, that'll really get the oil into the chain.
I use this method on old motorcycle drive chains with good success.


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## Philbert (Feb 4, 2015)

*Basic Chemical Cleaning Families*
Following up on the lye, in the post above, this is a nice, easy to follow chart on common cleaning chemicals: mild to strong acids (e.g. rust removal); mild to strong caustics (e.g. degreasing); weak to strong bleaches; mild to strong solvents,; etc:

http://www.maintex.com/page/usage

Helpful in comparing alternatives. In some cases, such as preserving an antique item, starting with the mildest product that might do the job is prudent. In other cases, the user might want to go with the 'nuclear option'. Each chemical may have unique properties as well, such as dissolving aluminum, or paint, or marble, or . . . . ***As always, use with each care, and look for the chemical's 'MDS' (Material Data Sheet - new term for 'MSDS' Material Safety Data Sheet) for harmful effects, cautions, warnings, and what type of protective gear to use.***

I also had an interesting talk with a technical rep for Zep chemicals, who broke common degreasers down into 3 categories or families: caustic/alkali/water based; citrus/D-limonene based; and petroleum/organic based solvents. Each works. Each has advantages and disadvantages (cost, flammability, vapors, disposal, toxicity, adverse reactions, etc.).

He stated that their commercial products (such as the 'purple' degreasers) contain a blend of surfactants/detergents, as well as chemicals that help them work on different types of dirt/soil. And that they are blended to clean well, without being as harsh as some chemicals used by themselves.


Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 4, 2015)

I must admit that I am still sold on Evapo-Rust. That stuff has performed some miracles on old chains for me. I used to soak in vinegar until I tried it. Vinegar also knocks off rust, but the chrome stays on with Evapo-Rust and it works much faster.

I do know one way that you can kill a chain rather rapidly beyond repair. Lay it in top of a car or truck battery with exposed terminals for an hour or so. One of my logger buddies did that last week by accident. The truck survived--barely. The chain did not.


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## Philbert (Feb 4, 2015)

Wood Doctor said:


> I do know one way that you can kill a chain rather rapidly beyond repair. Lay it in top of a car or truck battery with exposed terminals for an hour or so. . . . The truck survived--barely. The chain did not.



'_Chain reaction_'?



Wood Doctor said:


> I must admit that I am still sold on Evapo-Rust.



Evapo-Rust (and similar products) only works on rust. It is an alternative to some of the acids discussed. Some of the degreasers are caustics/bases, at the far, other end of the ph scale. As a practical matter, they work together: the Evapo-Rust instructions will tell you to degrease the item first so that the product can reach the rust. Obviously, if you are using a caustic for degreasing, followed by an acid (instead of Evapo-Rust) for de-rusting, you want to rinse well in-between.

I found that Evapo-Rust worked best on surface rust, but I am still happy to use it for that. Naval Jelly (phosphoric acid) says to stay away from chrome. And in one of the first posts in this thread, I lost some chrome with electrolysis, but I am starting to think that in some cases the chrome may already be weakened by corrosion underneath, or due to a poor plating bond.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 4, 2015)

I've also used chains that have had virtually all the chrome removed by acids, such as vinegar. Afterwards, they once again work OK as long as they get enough bar oil, but that's true of any chain.

Problem is, Philbert, the more chains that I save from the bone pile, the longer my new reels of chain last and I never seem to get the opportunity to make and enjoy using a brand new chain.


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## Philbert (Feb 4, 2015)

Good problems to have Edwin!

I understand that some of the racers intentionally remove the chrome from their race chains to get a sharper edge. I would not do that intentionally. And if the chrome comes off several cutters, that loop is likely going into the recycling pile, or may become a donor for tie straps or drive links, if they are rare.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Feb 28, 2015)

*Saved By a Nose!



*
Not a chain, but 'next to a chain' . . . I got this replacement nose sprocket along with something else, described as 'N.O.S', which I interpreted as '_New, Old Stock_' (a common eBay, CraigsList type term).

In fact, it was more like: '_Nose, Obviously Seized_', or '_Never Oiled Sprocket_' - as the sprocket absolutely would not move. I tried forcing it by hand. I tried tapping the teeth with a small hammer. Nothing. So I assumed that it was rusted in place (the sprocket had a little more surface corrosion before I took this photo). Someone must have left this new, unused sprocket in a damp place for a long time.

It's been slow in the chain department, and I had nothing to lose, so I decided to see if I could free this nose sprocket up without disassembling it. The good news is that the case was already colored black, so I did not have to worry about some of the rust remedies discoloring it.

As always, the first step is to clean the item - the rust removers can't work if they can't reach the metal. I swished it around a bit in some '_SuperClean' _degreaser; wiped; rinsed; repeated, and removed a lot of surface grease off of the case, and _apparently_, from inside. Because, after the cleaning, I got a little bit of movement from the sprocket!

Tap, tap, tap with the small hammer, and it turned more, although, it felt like it was packed with asphalt. Drizzled some '_3-In-One'_ oil between the insides of the case and the sprocket, rotated the sprocket back-and-forth, and it really freed up! Finished off with some '_WD-40_' to try and dry up any rinse water that might have been left behind, and I might actually have a functioning nose sprocket!

Apparently, the bearings had been packed with some type of grease that dried out, acting more like a glue than a lubricant. This was not something I could see without disassembling the case.

Now that I know that this is a possibility, the next time (yeah, right) I might try placing the nose sprocket in an ultrasonic cleaner (USC) with some type of degreaser or solvent.

*WINNER? *Philbert!

*LESSONS?*
- Cleaning is still the first step!
- Worth experimenting sometimes on '_nothing-to-lose'_ items.
- Rust is not the only possibility.


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 28, 2015)

Last summer, a logger gave me seven long bars with worn out tips in really sad shape. He said, "Can you fix these bars? Otherwise I'm out about $900 for new bars. The Stihl bars are rather costly."

Some were wide nose and some not. I fixed them all with new tips for $150, replacing most of them. He saved $750, and all the bars are still in service today. Mission accomplished.


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## 67L36Driver (Feb 28, 2015)

I have a similar problem with a NOS Remy roller nose. Although it turns I'm afraid it will flat spot if I try to run it as is.
Thanks for your post.


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## Philbert (May 3, 2015)

*Barracuda Chain and 3-In-One
*


As with the sprocket nose above, I got a NOS loop of old style PowerSharp chain (a.k.a. 'Barracuda chain') with a large number of stiff links.

No sign of even surface rust.

The classic 3-In-One oil is thin enough, and has some kind of solvent, to seep in between the links, and around the rivets, with a little encouragement.

Used all '3': cleans, lubricates, protects (the label has changed through the years)! No soaking. No degreasing. Links pivot freely now.

Philbert


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## 67L36Driver (May 20, 2015)

A before picture of what I call 'fishhook chain'. Looks like it was filed too low with an undersized file.


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## 67L36Driver (May 20, 2015)

Next, some whatzit chain.



Can't figure this at all.


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## Philbert (May 20, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Can't figure this at all.


I would say that both chains were 'de-filed'! Might still have some life left after corrective dental surgery!

Philbert


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## 67L36Driver (May 20, 2015)

Yes on the first, scrap bucket on the second.


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## 67L36Driver (May 27, 2015)

Here is some .325 x W.T.H.!!!
Looks like it was sharpened from the top of the tooth down.






Maybe some kind of accident or for some special application.

Going in the scrap bucket.


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## 67L36Driver (May 27, 2015)

Try again on second pic.


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## PogoInTheWoods (May 27, 2015)

Mebbe a Poulan Power Sharp setup tryin' to be used by someone who didn't even realize the chain was actually on back-assward?


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## Philbert (May 27, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Here is some .325 x W.T.H.!!!Looks like it was sharpened from the top of the tooth down.



Not much left to work with there!

Note that the tie straps and drive links look in pretty good condition. Oregon 35 series chain is NLA, so someone 'might' want them for parts. But that would be reaching.



PogoInTheWoods said:


> Mebbe a Poulan Power Sharp setup tryin' to be used by someone who didn't even realize the chain was actually on back-assward?



Could be someone tried to sharpen conventional chain with an older version PowerSharp set up mounted on a saw. Or someone just did not know how to sharpen chain.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (May 27, 2015)

Wrong end of the cutter any way ya look at it. Looks to have been 'relatively' correctly maintained previously though the rakers are a little low for most purists.


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## matt167 (May 27, 2015)

I confess. I bought a grinder and put the first chain I did with it on backwards. It wouldn't cut after that. I dont use the grimder anymore. I hand file chains. I'm not perfect but at least they cut


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## 67L36Driver (May 27, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Could be someone tried to sharpen conventional chain with an older version PowerSharp set up mounted on a saw. Or someone just did not know how to sharpen chain.
> 
> Philbert



That's what I'm going with. A conventional chain 'sharpened' with the barracuda saw mounted stone.

I ain't wasting my wheel or time to salvage it.


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## PogoInTheWoods (May 27, 2015)

Always good to touch up the back of the cutter now and again regardless of method.


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## Philbert (May 29, 2015)

*Slightly Off Topic*

I use old baking and cookie sheets to clean my chains, as shown in earlier posts. Usually pick these up at garage sales cheap to avoid using the same ones we use for food.

Picked up a couple out of a 'free' pile that were heavily crusted with baked on grease. Abrasive scrubbing would barely touch it. Heavy duty degreasers, including sodium hydroxide, did not work. Thought about putting them in my own 'free' pile!

Finally, put them in oven during the self-cleaning cycle, and they came out like this. Sorry, no 'before' photos.

Philbert


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## zogger (May 29, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Slightly Off Topic*
> 
> I use old baking and cookie sheets to clean my chains, as shown in earlier posts. Usually pick these up at garage sales cheap to avoid using the same ones we use for food.
> 
> ...



So what is that, about 500 degrees and they burn clean?


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## Philbert (May 29, 2015)

Something like that. Not sure of exact temp. These are aluminum pans, so I wasn't sure what to expect. 

Philbert


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## svk (May 29, 2015)

Always interesting to see what inventions/improvements/modifications you come up with.


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## 67L36Driver (May 29, 2015)

Heh. You messed up. Now the wife will claim them.[emoji11]


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## svk (May 29, 2015)

Philbert I still owe you those chains. I've been too enthralled with the 550 to even spin a wrench on the other saw so I can swap out the sprocket.


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## Philbert (May 29, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Heh. You messed up. Now the wife will claim them.



I keep everything separate but the oven, which I only use to dry really clean parts. If I had a bigger shop, I would snag a used one for shop use.

Philbert

Similar thoughts:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/chainsaws-and-home-economics.220545/


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## 67L36Driver (May 29, 2015)

Yes! I'm about ready to go out and buy a used dishwasher given the state of the last 'pile-o-Stihl' I've been dealing with.


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## Philbert (Jun 25, 2015)

OK, these are what the pans in Post#228 looked like 'before':




Got these free at a garage sale - will go in the oven next time it goes through a 'self-cleaning' cycle.
Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 25, 2015)

*Challenge Chains # 18(?) - 'End-Of-Life' (EOL) Chains*

Kind of lost count on the numbering.

Got these chains from an antique store, thrown in with a few other things. Not much to look at - even when cleaned up. They are essentially, '_almost_' used up. Some guys would call these '_stumper_' chains: to be used on dirty stumps when they don't want to ruin a good chain. Some guys would call these '_race chains_' because of the huge gullets!

I call them _EOL_ chains. Someone got a lot of good use out of them; no excessive wear noticed on the other components, and the teeth are fairly uniform in size and shape. Should be be able to get one more full sharpening out of each before the teeth all fly off - will grind them at a less steep angle to protect what is left of the stem/side plate that is holding the toothed part to the rest of the cutter.

Really not worth a lot of effort, but it does not take much more time to do these when cleaning/sharpening chains in a batch.






*WINNER?* Philbert! And whoever got all of that original used from these chains

*LESSONS? *EOL chains still have a little life left in them.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 25, 2015)

*Challenge Chain # 19 - Bevel Up!*

Rescued from the trash after it was declared it 'junk'. Usually this translates to, "_I don't like 'safety' (reduced kickback) chain_", or, "_I never liked XYZ brand of chain_", or perhaps, a hack job of sharpening. But this was a lightly used loop of Windsor chain, without any low kickback bumpers. 

After a simple cleaning, it becomes clear that something is going on with the reversed bevel on the top plates. Not as flagrant as the chain shown in Post #221, above. But the consistency of the bevel on all of the cutters, suggests that it was intentional, rather than the result of hitting a rock. Could be 'PowerSharp envy'? Could be that someone was just having a bad day, with their mind on other things?

Not sure where he got the chain from. Easy to fix with the grinder. Since the chain is fairly new, it will still have a long, usable life after correcting the bevel.








*WINNER?* Philbert! (And Philbert's friend, who will get this chain back, after some adjustments)

*LESSONS?* Sometimes we miss the obvious.

Philbert


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## svk (Jun 25, 2015)

Someone was too smart for their own good. Nice save Philbert!


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## Philbert (Jun 26, 2015)

Philbert said:


> OK, these are what the pans in Post#228 looked like 'before': Got these free at a garage sale - will go in the oven next time it goes through a 'self-cleaning' cycle.



**NOTE* *(_sorry, can't go back and edit posts older than 24 hours anymore!_)

The aluminum pans (Post #229) came out better than the steel pans shown (Post #237)! The aluminum ones were cleaned down to the bare metal. Apparently, the steel pans had some type of coating that was burned off (?). They are still suitable for shop use, but I would not use this cleaning process for steel pans that you intended to use again for food.

Philbert


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## wde_1978 (Jun 28, 2015)

I like this thread , interesting read. 

Salvage challenge ? 

It is missing ONLY 7 teeth (out of 36, 72DL loop) , 2 or 3 are bent! 

Generates a kerf narrower then the rivets are (see wood-polished rivet heads) , huge race chain potential.


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## ANewSawyer (Jun 28, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Always good to touch up the back of the cutter now and again regardless of method.



Could I please get more info on this? Thanks!


----------



## 67L36Driver (Jun 28, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> I like this thread , interesting read.
> 
> Salvage challenge ?
> 
> ...


Finish grinding the cutters off and use it to power your bicycle.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 28, 2015)

ANewSawyer said:


> Could I please get more info on this? Thanks!



Just a tongue-in-cheek remark about the chain pictured in post 221.


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## Cj genever (Jun 28, 2015)

My rust secret weapon is a 50/50 mix of acetone and atf. The acetone thins and carries the oil in. The atf has detergents that help break the rust. You can then heat any non-heat sensitive part till it starts to boil out. Stop before it dries and hit it with more mix. The mix will suck in like solder on copper fittings.

I I've saved a chain that was devastated by rust. It took a month long diesel bath during which I would work the rivets every few days. At the end I gave it a few days in b/c oil. The rivets were a touch loose, but not too bad. That chain accompanies my climbing saw to this day. I keep it around for a backup.


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## ANewSawyer (Jun 28, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Just a tongue-in-cheek remark about the chain pictured in post 221.



I thought you were serious!  

 @ myself


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 28, 2015)

ANewSawyer said:


> I thought you were serious!
> 
> @ myself



Fret not. Sometimes I'm not quite sure myself!


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## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Always good to touch up the back of the cutter now and again regardless of method.





ANewSawyer said:


> Could I please get more info on this? Thanks!





PogoInTheWoods said:


> Just a tongue-in-cheek remark about the chain pictured in post 221.



Actually, some guys 'clip' the back of the top plate on their cutters, grinding it off at a slight angle, supposedly to reduce drag (?) or to improve chip flow (?), or reduce weight (?). There is some stuff on this if you dig into the race chain threads. Probably not a worthwhile modification for most users.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

Cj genever said:


> My rust secret weapon is a 50/50 mix of acetone and atf.



A lot of guys have success with that. My results were not as positive. There are some comments in this thread on it: Posts 51 - 80, 90, 104 - 107.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Actually, some guys 'clip' the back of the top plate on their cutters, grinding it off at a slight angle, supposedly to reduce drag (?) or to improve chip flow (?), or reduce weight (?). There is some stuff on this if you dig into the race chain threads. Probably not a worthwhile modification for most users.
> 
> Philbert



Would only make sense to me for when puttin' a chain on backward!


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## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> Salvage challenge ? It is missing ONLY 7 teeth (out of 36, 72DL loop) , 2 or 3 are bent!


_Somebody_ got some use out of that chain! Again, note that the drivers and tie straps are still in pretty good condition - compare that to some chains that have been sharpened maybe once, and have all kinds of wear on the other components, due to worn sprockets, poor tensioning, lack of oiling, jumping the bar groove, etc.



67L36Driver said:


> Finish grinding the cutters off and use it to power your bicycle.


I have often wondered where users find drive-only chains for use with chainsaw accessories, like the Lewis Winch, or the Log Wizard de-barking tool.

Philbert


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## wde_1978 (Jun 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Somebody got some use out of that chain!* Again, note that the drivers and tie straps are still in pretty good condition - compare that to some chains that have been sharpened maybe once, and have all kinds of wear on the other components, due to worn sprockets, poor tensioning, lack of oiling, jumping the bar groove, etc.


  I did ! 

It wasn't always like that with my chains , took me a long while to learn how to half way properly sharpen a chain!
I had chains snap due to tie strap or drive link breakage all the time - used to take those to the local Stihl dealer to fix them so I could use a little more of the 50+% remaining teeth. 

Buying my Dolmar PS-6400 back in 2006. was a great move , came with round ground chisel chain changing my filing/sharpening technique for the better.
I always knew how to sharpen drills , thus sharpening a chisel chain came easy to me. 
I can't stand filing those darn round tooth safety chains of my Sachs-Dolmar 105 though.


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## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> I can't stand filing those darn round tooth safety chains of my Sachs-Dolmar 105 though.


They are worthless. Mail 'em to me an I will dispose of them properly for you.

Philbert


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## wde_1978 (Jun 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> They are worthless. Mail 'em to me an I will dispose of them properly for you.
> 
> Philbert


Forgot to mention that those round tooth chains are low profile and the saw is a small 1,7kW top handle saw.
Thus I am sort off forced to use that kind of chain as I never encountered chisel low profile 3/8" chains in shops around my living area!


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## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> I never encountered chisel low profile 3/8" chains in shops around my living area!


STIHL PS3 is a chisel tooth, 'Picco' (3/8, low profile) chain. Still round filed, but it can (and has!) been converted to square filed: http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/ps3/

"_STIHL PICCO™ Super 3 is a low-profile, low-kickback saw chain. The razor-edged, square-cornered cutter shape ensures minimum chain friction for an exceptionally smooth and clean cut in hard or frozen wood. Considered a high-performance cutting chain,"
_
STIHL PS is the non-low-kickback version. Still available in some places. _http://www.stihl.co.uk/STIHL-Produc...22177-1631/Picco-Super-(PS)-3-8-P-1-3-mm.aspx_

_"Apart from the 3/8" PS3 chain, it's the only Picco full chisel tooth chain on the market. Significantly better cutting performance than all other available low-profile saw chains with a 1.3 mm drive link. Even greater boring performance that the 3/8" PS3 saw chain."_

Philbert


----------



## wde_1978 (Jun 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> STIHL PS3 is a chisel tooth, 'Picco' (3/8, low profile) chain. Also available in some places without the low kickback bumper. Still round filed, but it can (and has!) been converted to square filed: http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/ps3/
> 
> "_STIHL PICCO™ Super 3 is a low-profile, low-kickback saw chain. The razor-edged, square-cornered cutter shape ensures minimum chain friction for an exceptionally smooth and clean cut in hard or frozen wood. Considered a high-performance cutting chain,"
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Philbert , might look into it once I fix my "105"! 

Although, haven't I read somewhere here on AS that the Stihl Picco 3/8" has a slightly different pitch then the Oregon LowProfile 3/8" does?
If so , would it still fit without damaging the saws and bars sprocket?

Though I might be wrong , imagining things.


----------



## Philbert (Jun 28, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> Although, haven't I read somewhere here on AS that the Stihl Picco 3/8" has a slightly different pitch then the Oregon LowProfile 3/8" does?


Completely interchangeable. 'Low Profile'. 'Picco'. Husqvarna calls it 'Pixel'. 

Please start a thread on your efforts and results if you convert a loop to square filed. 

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 29, 2015)

Back to the top. Evapo-Rust still works. I am fascinated with this product, primarily because it works better than vinegar. Yes, it costs more than vinegar, but it works better to remove rust from cutting chains and leaves the shine on.


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## Philbert (Jul 28, 2015)

*Your Basic Cinderella Makeover . . .*
(Bump)

Nothing exciting, just been slow around the Chain Salvage Challenge.

Saw this chain on the top of a neighbor's junk pile left out for the scrappers. Said he found it in his garage when he moved in, but had no idea what saw it was for.



Basic cleaning, and it is a STIHL, .325, .063, 62 DL semi-chisel, low-kickback chain used on MS250's, etc. Sharpened maybe twice, ready for a third time. Retails for about $23 around here.



Philbert


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## svk (Jul 28, 2015)

Lots of life left on that!


----------



## Wood Doctor (Jul 28, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Your Basic Cinderella Makeover . . .*
> (Bump)
> Nothing exciting, just been slow around the Chain Salvage Challenge.
> 
> ...


I just picked up a 100' reel of this chain at an estate sale. The owner had not used any of it. All was in excellent condition. I figured it had to be worth a pair of C-notes and that's what I offered him. He accepted. Unfortunately, it has no rust on it, and he even threw in all the presets and tie straps that came with it. So, I can't post it here as a salvaged reel. I should get about 25 loops out of it. I have seven saws that can use it, and several friends still have 028 Supers.


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## Philbert (Jul 28, 2015)

Wood Doctor said:


> I can't post it here as a salvaged reel.


It is a great '_scrounge_' if not technically a '_salvage_'!

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 29, 2015)

Philbert said:


> It is a great '_scrounge_' if not technically a '_salvage_'!
> 
> Philbert


Thank you for the encouragement. I just made my first loop from this "salvaged" reel today and tried it out with an 028 Super running a 20" bar, which I admit is a tad long for an 028. It cut like a bandit and the saw loved it. How could anyone criticize .325" pitch and .o63" gauge chain when installed on the right saw?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 30, 2015)

An 028 will run a 20" .325 setup all day long and indeed love it -- especially a Super!


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## Wood Doctor (Jul 30, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> An 028 will run a 20" .325 setup all day long and indeed love it -- especially a Super!


I did it yesterday for almost two hours now, and you are right. I was cutting mostly dry cottonwood, but it was anything but punky. Buck cuts were smooth and it even noodle cut right through some 18" logs that were 20" dia. It even threw the noodles out without any clog up. I'm sold on both the .325 chain, the 20" bar, and the 028 Super.


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## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

*Box Store Scrounge*

Helped a guy in the saw aisle at Menard's who looked a bit lost.

Him, "_I don't know if I need an 'S56' or an 'S57'. What's the difference?_"
Me, "_Let me look at your old chain. You need an 'S52'. . . . . What are you going to do with your old chain?_"
Him, "_I had some trouble with this one and want to start over with a new chain, so that I know that it is not the problem_".




After a quick bath in degreaser and a short conversation with Mr. Toothbrush . . . . (photo shows a little crud I left under the cutters - that came off quickly).
He called it _'16' chain_.

Philbert


----------



## ANewSawyer (Aug 13, 2015)

Maybe it is the angle Phil but some of those rakers look really low. Good find though.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 13, 2015)

Or those bumpers look really high. I grind em down and outta the way when I end up with that type of safety chain. Wouldn't necessarily recommend the practice for everyone, but I'd never buy that stuff for my own use and when I acquire it for free, well..., I feel compelled to 'fix' it.


----------



## svk (Aug 13, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Or those bumpers look really high. I grind em down and outta the way when I end up with that type of safety chain. Wouldn't necessarily recommend the practice for everyone, but I'd never buy that stuff for my own use and when I acquire it for free, well..., I feel compelled to 'fix' it.


If you take the bumpers out of the equation, it just becomes semi-chisel chain, correct?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 13, 2015)

Would obviously depend on the cutter style, but I'm not aware of any full chisel with the bumper style safety feature.


----------



## svk (Aug 13, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Would obviously depend on the cutter style, but I'm not aware of any full chisel with the bumper style safety feature.


Me either. But all other things equal, a safety chain with bumpers removed should have similar cut speed to semi chisel. Or am I missing something?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 13, 2015)

In the case of Stihl chain, and depending on the original type, it essentially turns a RSC3 style into RSC, 0r depending on the chain style guide used for reference, RM3 into RM...with the 3 being the humped tie strap safety style in any case.

There are a couple of Stihl docs explaining their chain I.D. designations and others cross-reffing the same styles between manufacturers. Gets complicated!

But to answer the question, yes....(providing the chain is sharp, of course).

And safety chain does cut, so don't get me wrong....just not as aggressively....for a reason.


----------



## svk (Aug 13, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> In the case of Stihl chain, and depending on the original type, it essentially turns a RSC3 style into RSC, 0r depending on the chain style guide used for reference, RM3 into RM...with the 3 being the humped tie strap safety style in any case.
> 
> There are a couple of Stihl docs explaining their chain I.D. designations and others cross-reffing the same styles between manufacturers. Gets complicated!
> 
> ...


Yeah it sure beats a hand saw anyhow.


----------



## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

ANewSawyer said:


> Maybe it is the angle Phil but some of those rakers look really low.


Just the camera angle (trying to avoid shadows). Depth gauges were never touched - chain might have been sharpened once.



svk said:


> If you take the bumpers out of the equation, it just becomes semi-chisel chain, correct?


Right.

Think of chains as an assembly of: cutters, tie straps; drive links, and rivets. Some chains have different right and left tie-straps. Some have multiple drive link types (bumper and non-bumper alternating on the same loop). Some cutters are spaced differently: full house, full compliment, semi-skip, skip, or none (used to drive things like a Lewis winch, etc.). Manufacturers mix-n-match components to make different chains. So 'Pogo-izing' a low kickback chain would basically convert the bumper tie-straps into conventional tie-straps: the cutters and drive links would remain the same as on any other chain of that size and type by the same manufacturer.

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/how-to-guides/saw-chain-identification/
http://www.oregonproducts.com/homeowner/products/chain/consumer_sawchain_parts.htm

Philbert


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## briantutt (Aug 13, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Here is some .325 x W.T.H.!!!
> Looks like it was sharpened from the top of the tooth down.
> 
> View attachment 427342
> ...


Looks like someone tried running it backwards! 

Brian


----------



## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Would obviously depend on the cutter style, but I'm not aware of any full chisel with the bumper style safety feature.


Oregon currently shows the following, round ground, full-chisel chains to have a bumper_ drive link_ (not a bumper_ tie stra_p) reduced kickback feature:
- Super 20 (20, 21,22LPX) .325 pitch
- Super 70 (72, 73, 75 LPX - plus JPX skip versions) 3/8 pitch

Philbert


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## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I grind em down and outta the way when I end up with that type of safety chain.


I don't grind the bumpers off, 'cause I am a 'safety guy', and because I can make these chains cut good enough for me. But if that is important for you to use these chains, then that is sort of a 'chain salvage' activity, so it fits in this thread.

Philbert


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## 67L36Driver (Aug 13, 2015)

briantutt said:


> Looks like someone tried running it backwards!
> 
> Brian


Yeah it did indeed.

In the junk pile now.

When I balance time invested vrs cost of low profile safety chain a new loop of real chain wins every time.

Now if someone comes up with a nipper to cut down the guard links I could go for that.

I do save safety chain in a box for one client who thinks it cuts smoother.[emoji57]


----------



## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> I do save safety chain in a box for one client who thinks it cuts smoother.



I like the bumper drive link (center) low-kickback chain better than the tie-strap (side) bumper chains - less of a problem with chip removal, less interference when filing depth gauges, etc.

But a lot of people like the tie-strap bumpers on pole saws - typically cutting smaller diameter wood, and it does seem to 'bounce' less. So I could go along with that 'smoother' comment on small wood.

Philbert


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## heimannm (Aug 13, 2015)

I just collect all the various "safety" chains I come across and ship them to an address in St. Paul, MN. Must have a deep hole because I keep sending chain and it never seems to get filled up. I have another box worth gathered up again, just need to be home long enough to move them out.

Mark


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## Philbert (Aug 13, 2015)

Send them to _*Philbert's No-Kill Chain Shelter and Home for Unloved Saw Chains*_, *where we accept all types of chains, regardless of their condition, brand, or low kickback orientation/status. We harbor chains, without any questions, even when they arrive without documentation. Each chain is gently bathed, sorted, and eventually re-homed with a loving sawyer for the rest of their useful lives.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 14, 2015)

Outstanding.


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## Philbert (Aug 25, 2015)

*Deburring Wheel*

In some earlier posts (e.g. #159 in this thread) I mentioned using a 'ScotchBrite' brand deburring wheel on chains to reshape drive links after filing, and to remove burrs on drive links. I have recently started using a different type, with better results for this application, and posted that information in this thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...ve-link-deburring-wheels.284866/#post-5507764

Philbert


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## hangfirew8 (Oct 6, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Your Basic Cinderella Makeover . . .*
> (Bump)
> 
> Nothing exciting, just been slow around the Chain Salvage Challenge.
> ...


You forgot-

Winner: Philbert.

-HF


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

You be at the fall Iowa GTG?

Got a special loop saved aside for You.



Needs work..........


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> You be at the fall Iowa GTG?


Hope to make it!

(That chain probably just needs a little 3-in-One oil . . .)

Philbert


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

What I really want to save is the Tsumura 18" x 3/8" x .050" bar.

Four years in a damp basement.[emoji21]


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## svk (Oct 7, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> What I really want to save is the Tsumura 18" x 3/8" x .050" bar.
> 
> Four years in a damp basement.


Oh wow. Looks like it was out in a field for years.

Does it have the replaceable tip? You can provably clean the rest of it up.


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

Yup, tip is replaceable.

Got it to turn 1/2 way back and forth. Will keep working it.


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2015)

Bar is probably recoverable, but rust '_eats_'metal. By the time it is cleaned up the groove will probably be a different size. 

Worth trying. 

Philbert


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## svk (Oct 7, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Yup, tip is replaceable.
> 
> Got it to turn 1/2 way back and forth. Will keep working it.


Soak it in a container with diesel or penetrating oil for a few days.


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## briantutt (Oct 7, 2015)

I heard on the site a long time ago the magic combo is 50% acetone 50% automatic transmission fluid.

Brian


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

Freed it up, greased the tip and ran it in some wood. All healed up[emoji6]


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## Philbert (Oct 7, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Freed it up, greased the tip and ran it in some wood. All healed up[emoji6]


Photos?

Details: Buff up the sides of the bar? Clean the rails? Clean the groove? Save the sprocket nose or replace it?

Thanks!

Philbert


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## svk (Oct 7, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Photos?
> 
> Details: Buff up the sides of the bar? Clean the rails? Clean the groove? Save the sprocket nose or replace it?
> 
> ...


I'd bet the nose will last some time but will fail before it would have. Regardless he salvaged it so it's a big savings right there.


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

Nope, no heroic efforts. Running it rank and rusty.[emoji12]

Must be a 20" by the way. 70 dl loop of no count chipper fit it.


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## 67L36Driver (Oct 7, 2015)

Tip is identical to the one on my J-red 670. Tsumura also.


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## Philbert (Oct 14, 2015)

*Challenge Chain # 22*

Nothing special - but a good excuse for a thread bump.

Another chain rescued from the trash. A clean STIHL narrow kerf, Picco chain that had a bad day. Hit a rock, or something, hard. No (practical) option, other than grinding it back past the damaged area. Should still have some cutting life, and even another sharpening, left in it, after reconditioning. These chains are often used on pole saws, so if I have to shorten the loop, I can even choose to spin out the worst links.





*WINNER?* Philbert! A clean, usable chain after grinding it back.

*LESSONS?* '_Rock, Paper, Cutter_s' is not a good game to play with chains.

Philbert


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## svk (Oct 14, 2015)

"A" rock? I'd say they hit several rocks or possibly did some trenching lol. 

Nice save nonetheless. 

Also can you rescue very rusty chains ie hanging on an outside garage wall?


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## Philbert (Oct 14, 2015)

svk said:


> Also can you rescue very rusty chains ie hanging on an outside garage wall?


I did a lot of rust remediation in the early posts - the key thing to remember is that _RUST EATS METAL_. I can remove rust, in a variety of ways, but can't put the missing metal back. So not a big deal if it is some light, surface rust on the drive links or tie straps, but if the rivets are weakened . . . .

OK for a rare chain that you want to display (e.g. see Post #133 - 140). OK for light surface rust. But if the chain is heavily rusted, seized, or has the chrome plating pitted, I would not run that chain.

Philbert


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## wde_1978 (Oct 15, 2015)

Philbert said:


> *Challenge Chain # 22*
> 
> Nothing special - but a good excuse for a thread bump.
> 
> ...


I just "fixed" a 72DL 3/8" chisel chain that looked like that, had to grind about 2mm of all the teeth off. Afterwards I took a second go at it with a file and a file guide to get the gullet and top plate back to my liking.
Forgot to take before/after pictures, shame. 

I finally toasted my worn "dirty stuff" chain, I think it has no cutters left now. 
Will take some pictures for You to inspect whether it is "salvageable" - very doubtful though! 

I like this thread!


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## Homelite410 (Dec 6, 2015)

Here you go buddy! http://m.ebay.com/itm/111837974102?_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true


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## wde_1978 (Dec 6, 2015)

Homelite410 said:


> Here you go buddy! http://m.ebay.com/itm/111837974102?_mwBanner=1&ul_noapp=true


That would be fun to sort through! 

So, the dude buys a new chain whenever his current is dull and just accumulates the never sharpened ones till he has barrels full of them?
Weird practice. 

Since one can not know what truly is in that barrel it would have to be inspected upon personal pickup, or payed no more then scrap metal price.


----------



## svk (Dec 6, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> That would be fun to sort through!
> 
> So, the dude buys a new chain whenever his current is dull and just accumulates the never sharpened ones till he has barrels of of them?
> Weird practice.
> ...


Seems crazy to a recreational cutter but if you are on the clock it costs money to deal with sharpening. Either you have to pay one of your guys to sharpen them or you have to pay your guy to bring them to a saw shop then go back and pick them up. If you buy in bulk you can get chains for around $10. Most places charge $6-7 plus to sharpen.


----------



## Homelite410 (Dec 6, 2015)

What do you suppose that weighs? 300#


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 6, 2015)

Yeah, I'd say shipping would be the deal breaker at any price!


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## wde_1978 (Dec 6, 2015)

Homelite410 said:


> What do you suppose that weighs? 300#


Just checked a completely worn 3/8" .058 72DL chain - 320 gram.

The question is how many loops are in those barrels (dude claims to have two).

Somebody close to the seller should pick it up (or at least a few dozens of loops) and send it to whoever offered free round sharpening of a box full of chains in the Christmas Giving 2015 thread (sorry, don't remember who gifted the free sharpening).

This will only be interesting to somebody close by to the seller or someone willing to make a road trip.


----------



## Philbert (Dec 6, 2015)

I doubt that there are '_more than a thousand chains in there'_. But could still be a good deal for $100.

Especially, if they are mostly the same brand, type, pitch, and gauge chain. And if they are just used chains, as svk suggests, and not mostly rusted, twisted, rocked chains and stumpers. A guy could clean them up and re-spin them to length.




I have bought 'once-used' loops off eBay with good results, especially if a less common type or size. But sometimes they sell for the cost of new chains, once shipping is included.

A number of rental yards include a new chain with each rental, so that the customer can't complain after driving it into the dirt. Then they sell them in bunches on eBay or CL.

This guy would do better by sorting the loops into groups of 6 or 10, and offering to ship then in flat-rate boxes. He would get his $100 very quickly, especially if the chains say 'STIHL' on them.

Philbert


----------



## MontanaTed (Dec 6, 2015)

67L36Driver said:


> Nope, no heroic efforts. Running it rank and rusty.[emoji12]
> 
> Must be a 20" by the way. 70 dl loop of no count chipper fit it.View attachment 452219


Give that bugger a vinegar bath, or hit up Homelite and have him do his magic engine turn on it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greenthorn (Dec 6, 2015)

$100 is just the opening bid.
I've also bought the once used chains on ebay "lots" Think it was 10 chains for $40? Several years ago and I still have all of them and probably sharpened them 2 or 3 times, so it was a good deal, they stihl have 3 or more (grind) sharpenings left in them, all stihl brand, unfortunately they're .325


----------



## wde_1978 (Dec 12, 2015)

*Completely all out worn chain - recycle bin ripe! *​
Philbert, if You want it it's Yours for the cost of shipping! 





FYI: The above is this chain, just 6 months and some abuse later




One more nearing this state, might not get it worn all the way this Year though. 
This is NOT the current state the chain is in, it had a few more hours of bush clearing duty!



And a thirdly, this one is a great noodle chain, not so good for bucking though as it makes a too narrow kerf. 
These are current state pictures.


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## wde_1978 (Dec 12, 2015)

*Inside-Out chain - how to fix*​
I have been shown the following chain by a coworker and asked how to fix it so it can be used.
What is Your opinion Philbert?


----------



## Philbert (Dec 12, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> Completely all out worn chain - recycle bin ripe!


Somebody got their money's worth!

What I like about those chains it that the tie straps and drive links still appear to be in very good condition, even though the cutters are (obviously) gone. To me, this suggests that you are good with chain tension, chain lubrication, depth gauge settings, and letting a sharp chain do the work when you cut.

Either that, or take off_ waaaay_ too much metal when you sharpen!

Philbert


----------



## Philbert (Dec 12, 2015)

wde_1978 said:


> Inside-Out chain - how to fix. I have been shown the following chain by a coworker and asked how to fix it so it can be used. What is Your opinion Philbert?



The '_Inside-Out_' part is easy: wearing thick gloves, hold the loop by its sides, and twist/snap your wrists. It is an old trick/prank that has been discussed before here on A.S. - easier to do with longer loops, and especially, with worn, 'stretched' loops. With new chain, or a short loop that was spun this way in error, you may need to drive out a couple of rivets and re-spin it.

That chain has other problems! The cutters have some life left in them, but the drive links are really messed up: it looks like they all have burrs along their sides, and the tips are heavily worn down. The burrs can be removed, and the drive links re-shaped a '_little_', but that that chain may still have problems meshing with the drive sprocket.

In more than one way, it is the '_opposite'_ of the loops you posted just before this one.

Philbert


----------



## briantutt (Dec 12, 2015)

I have fixed a few drive link burrs with a Dremel. My 362XP pulled the chain right into the sprocket and split it which messed some drive links up on a newer chain but I just ground the bad areas down. 

Brian


----------



## wde_1978 (Dec 12, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Somebody got their money's worth!
> 
> What I like about those chains it that the tie straps and drive links still appear to be in good condition, even though the cutters are (obviously) gone. To me, this suggests that you are good with chain tension, chain lubrication, depth gauge settings, and letting a sharp chain do the work when you cut.
> 
> ...


*I did! *
That completely worn chain is now 3 or 4 years old!
Before I got my Dolmar PS-7900 I used to have one chain per saw in usage and it would last me 2-3 years of firewood cutting with my main saw being my PS-6400 (my backup saw for tiny stuff was my Sachs-Dolmar 105).
I hate grinding, I file my chains even when they show minor damage due to dirt (dragged oak firewood tree trunks).
I didn't used to know how in my young days, but since I bought my PS-6400 (2006.) I love my chains to self feed - by now I like to think that I know how to sharpen a chisel tooth chain "fairly well".
It doesn't have to win any cookie cutting races, as long as it cuts straight and self feeds I am satisfied with my filing.



Philbert said:


> The '_Inside-Out_' part is easy: wearing thick gloves, hold the loop by its sides, and twist/snap your wrists. It is an old trick/prank that has been discussed before here on A.S. - easier to do with longer loops, and especially, with worn, 'stretched' loops. With new chain, or a short loop, that was spun this way in error, you may need to drive out a couple of rivets and re-spin it.
> 
> That chain has other problems! The cutters have some life left in them, but the drive links are really messed up: it looks like they all have burrs along their sides, and the tips are heavily worn down. The burrs can be removed, and the drive links re-shaped a '_little_', but that that chain may still have problems meshing with the drive sprocket.
> 
> ...


Aww, You knew!
Yes, the dude (my coworker) flipped the chain bare handed - says he does it to any chain type, length, pitch, old or new.
I have a clip of him flipping that loop, might put it up on YouTube.
I tried it with that worn chain of mine, the non existing teeth remnants went through the thick leather gloves I had on straight into my fingers - I immediately let go and didn't try again!

Those DL's on that flipped chain indeed look terrible, my guess is worn spur sprocket and/or worn bar.
It is not my chain (nor saw running that chain), thus it is not my concern.


----------



## briantutt (Jun 4, 2016)

salvaging a chain that came with my 268,266,162 husky frankensaw project. 

what 3/8, .050 chain is marked 9L on the drive links? looks like Oregon 72DG semi chizek but none of the cross reference stuff I have leads me to what brand the chain is.

does anyone here know?

Brian


----------



## Philbert (Jun 4, 2016)

briantutt said:


> . . what 3/8, .050 chain is marked 9L on the drive links?


Photos help.

Oregon 'private labels' chain for many saw manufacturers, so it could be what you describe, but labeled with the specific company's markings.

Philbert


----------



## briantutt (Jun 4, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Photos help.
> 
> Oregon 'private labels' chain for many saw manufacturers, so it could be what you describe, but labeled with the specific company's markings.
> 
> Philbert


Here are a couple pics. I sharpened it per the Oregon 72DG instructions, at least all the angles and cutter lengths are the same now. 3/16 wheel, 60/30/0 so I will see how it cuts.










there is also a Z on some of the non cutter, non drive links.

Brian


----------



## Philbert (Jun 4, 2016)

briantutt said:


> there is also a Z on some of the non cutter, non drive links.


The 'Z' is the give away.

Of course, I can't recall which brand it is, but I know that we have discussed this before, here on A.S.! Maybe @SawTroll can remind us?

Philbert


----------



## fearofpavement (Jun 4, 2016)

Probably a Carlton chain made for Cutter's Choice. Used to be Zip Penn I believe.


----------



## 7sleeper (Jun 5, 2016)

briantutt said:


> Here are a couple pics. I sharpened it per the Oregon 72DG instructions, at least all the angles and cutter lengths are the same now. 3/16 wheel, 60/30/0 so I will see how it cuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Brian,

But I seriously doubt that chain will cut good! You have absolutely no "hook" and the "cutting pointy top" of the cutters have a flash reflection, that is for me an indication that you still need to take quite some material off to get satisfactory cutting results!

7


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## fearofpavement (Jun 5, 2016)

I concur with the above post. Need to make another lap and take off more metal.


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## briantutt (Jun 5, 2016)

huh, I will look again but I am doing it with a grinding wheel setup and I judge how much to take by looking face on at the cutter and keep adjusting the stop until I get a full ground face. the chain was pretty screwed up though so there are 1 or 2 that didn't get a full dress just because I didn't want to take all that metal off the rest of the cutters. on the the other hand I certainly am no expert. I will put this chain on straight away if I cut today.

Brian


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## 7sleeper (Jun 5, 2016)

@briantutt 

No offense meant but just looking at the pics I would assume that about 0.04inch should be taken off to get a half-way decent cutting chain. 

7


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## Philbert (Jun 5, 2016)

Always hard to go by a picture, and semi-chisel 'hook' is especially hard to judge, compared to the clear point of full-chisel chain.

I would clean the gunk off of that chain; touch up the edges; check the depth gauges and round them over; and see how it cuts!



briantutt said:


> I judge how much to take by looking face on at the cutter and keep adjusting the stop until I get a full ground face.


Good to start with good, clean metal.

Philbert


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## 7sleeper (Jun 5, 2016)

Sorry Philbert, but this time you are clearly far to diplomatic! If one looks at the first pic you can clearly see that the cutters are NOT filed correctly!

7


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## briantutt (Jun 5, 2016)

I will mount the chain on the bar and take some more pics. since it was on the grinder all angles are fixed and repeatable so we will see.

Brian


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## Philbert (Jun 5, 2016)

7sleeper said:


> . . . this time you are clearly far to diplomatic!


That's not something that I often get accused of!

Philbert


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## 7sleeper (Jun 5, 2016)

Philbert said:


> That's not something that I often get accused of!
> 
> Philbert




7


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 5, 2016)

Loop of 9/16" X .077. About half the left hand cutters look like poop. Hand sharpened on 50(?) degree angle.
Right hand cutters in much better shape but 40+ degrees.





What to do?

No 1/4" wheel for my cheap grinder. 
3/16" be OK?


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 5, 2016)

Right hand cutter.


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## Philbert (Jun 5, 2016)

As Clint Eastwood says, "_A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do . . ."_

Many grinders come with a 1/4" or 5/16" wheel for depth gauges. If you don't have one, you have a few options:

Use your 3/16" wheel and take it down part way (all around the loop); then back off the chain stop a hair, and take the wheel done a bit more to approximate the 1/4" wheel profile.

OR:

Shape the cutter as best as you can with the 3/16" wheel and finish it off with a file to get the final profile and edge.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 5, 2016)

Philbert said:


> ......
> 
> OR:
> 
> ...


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## briantutt (Jun 5, 2016)

I think pictures can be deceiving. I made a cut through an 18 inch log. first with the brand new chain from Oregon, full chisel, factory sharp.





I then swapped to the reclaimed semi-chisel sharpened be me. I dare say the reclaimed chain cuts even better based on the saw dust. nice long chips from the old chain.






one more picture of the reclaimed chain mounted.






Brian


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 5, 2016)

Take it back to a 'normal' 35 degree or go with the average?

This is on a gear drive Remy BTW.


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## Philbert (Jun 5, 2016)

briantutt said:


> I think pictures can be deceiving. . . nice long chips from the old chain.


Mail those chips to 7sleeper - he can make a nice salad out of them!

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 5, 2016)

67L36Driver said:


> Take it back to a 'normal' 35 degree or go with the average?
> 
> This is on a gear drive Remy BTW.



Not sure what you mean by "average" or who you're asking, but if it were me and there was enough meat left on the worst case cutter to get back to original angle specs with the grinder and then dial it in with a file, that'd be the way I'd go.


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## briantutt (Jun 5, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Mail those chips to 7sleeper - he can make a nice salad out of them!
> 
> Philbert


cutting good enough for me! I am just leaving that chain on.

Brian


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 5, 2016)

I think I'll see how it cuts in as is condition and go from there.

I have some Mall repair kits so I can replace some of the worst cutters.





Above with 3/8" Remington for contrast.


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## Philbert (Sep 22, 2016)

*Bump*

Quiet on the _challenge side_, but _salvaging_ continues! Still picking up chains at garage sales, etc. Recently got a 5 gallon bucket of chains for $10 (bucket alone was worth $2), including some long bar STIHL chains. Still evening up chains wildly out of balance from careless hand filing, or heavily damaged from an encounter with a rock, or so caked with gunk that their mother would not recognize them. Still re-sizing loops to fit, or replacing damaged links.

Still following the basic processes described in these threads:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philbert-meets-the-stihl-rs3.202969/
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...nding-and-drive-link-deburring-wheels.284866/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/baileys-chain-breaker-and-spinner.144859/

A good cleaning process; a good grinder; and a good spinner / breaker set go a long way in salvaging chains.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Sep 22, 2016)

Philbert said:


> *Bump*
> 
> Quiet on the _challenge side_, but _salvaging_ continues! Still picking up chains at garage sales, etc. Recently got a 5 gallon bucket of chains for $10 (bucket alone was worth $2), including some long bar STIHL chains. Still evening up chains wildly out of balance from careless hand filing, or heavily damaged from an encounter with a rock, or so caked with gunk that their mother would not recognize them. Still re-sizing loops to fit, or replacing damaged links.
> 
> ...


Fabulous find! I ran into a similar gold mine about three years ago when a logger buddy gave me his collection of "worn out" chains for big bars. He had also thrown them into a bucket. I converted half of them to shorter chains and am still using almost all of them. Most of his chains were for 3' bars. I threw away sections that were impossible to fix and saved the rest.


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## Rx7man (Oct 19, 2016)

Since this is supposed to be a challenge... Anyone think they can fix this chain up? Was on a MS170 I fixed the recoil on for a neighbor.. he should be kept away from chainsaws methinks... I got a cooked 394 for fixing the 170, and it had the parts I needed to fix my other 394.. so I was happy

BTW, all he uses is old engine oil for bar oil.. thing was disgusting to work on
Sorry for the grainy pic, but I think you get the idea


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## 7sleeper (Oct 19, 2016)

The top, well what should one say, looks like it is replacement time.  Reminds me of my first grinding experiences with the Stihl 180 were the chain ripped due to only a slight cut into the rivet area. 

Looks like sloppy file work. Would present him with a filing aid like the Husqvarna roller guide. 

7


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## rd35 (Oct 19, 2016)

I got in a hurry once and set my wheel too deep in the gullet of a 3/8LP chain and ran the chain for a customer. I was embarrassed when I realized what I had done. Chain was no longer safe to run as I had cut the drive links almost down to the rivet. Customer got a brand new chain out of the deal for free! I got a lesson in PAYING ATTENTION!!!!


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## heimannm (Oct 19, 2016)

Take a look at some of the highly modified race chains, they have a lot more taken off than a little nick in the tie strap like that. Many will have most of the rivet ground off as well.

Mark

P.S. I have a growing collection of chains to send north if I ever find the time...


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## bmwpowere36m3 (Oct 19, 2016)

Not that its right, but all my dad's chains come back from the local Stihl dealer like that... with cuts in the links. Never thought about it prior to being on this site.


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## svk (Oct 19, 2016)

bmwpowere36m3 said:


> Not that its right, but all my dad's chains come back from the local Stihl dealer like that... with cuts in the links. Never thought about it prior to being on this site.


Yeah I'd look elsewhere for sharpening then. Heat damaged cutters and excessive metal bent over the top of the cutter are also signs that the sharpening person isn't doing it right.


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## 7sleeper (Oct 19, 2016)

Hey @Philbert ,

found a vid that really amazes me. Ever wonder what it looks like under a mikroskop to see what a chisel is doing?



7


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## Philbert (Oct 19, 2016)

Rx7man said:


> Since this is supposed to be a challenge... Anyone think they can fix this chain up?


_'P-R-O-B-A-B-L-Y'
_
It is often possible to 'even out' cutters like that with some careful grinder work. But that may require taking them back to an EOL ('end of life') state - good for one last rodeo, or stumping. So it may not be worth the effort to some, challenges aside.

If several of the tie straps are damaged like that, the chain is pretty weak and 'iffy'. One could be replaced on an 'otherwise good' loop. Or wear the heavy PPE when running it!

Cleaning would not be an issue. That loop has clearly been run hard, and not treated with care. But it it was the only loop I had, we could make it still cut a bunch more wood!

Philbert


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## Rx7man (Oct 19, 2016)

ALL the tie straps on one side are like that.. evidently he couldn't figure out how to file the same way on one side.. Probably used a far too big file, and pulled up on it. Biggest worry for me are the tie straps being cut nearly to the rivet center.. I would also be able to salvage it enough to cut a little more.

My husky 35 has a MISERABLE chain on it.. broke a cutter off and it's at end-of-life as well.. Last job it had was cutting aluminum irrigation pipe that was in a forest fire... sure beat the tar out of hacksawing it


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2016)

*Just Scraping By . . .*

This was a hopeful chain submitted by an A.S. member. Covered in gunk, it cleaned up to be Poulan branded chain with limited use on the cutters.




Hard to see, unless in good light (and hard to photograph - sorry), but _every_ cutter on the loop was abraded on the top _and_ side plate, in a smooth, almost polished manner (see color and reflection differences in photos), essentially creating reverse bevels. In other words, the cutting edges were now angled away from the wood fibers.

I was not present when this occurred, but I assume that it was not a misguided attempt at sharpening. Although, it is more common to see abrasions on the top plate only, or predominantly on one side, when accidentally hitting a rock. This user must have tried to power through something really abrasive, like cement board?









Can it be saved? Yes - by grinding back almost 1/2 of each tooth, creating an _end-of-life_ chain (note that some cutters were abraded back farther than those shown). That's a lot of work for a small return.

Thought about lowering the depth gauges significantly, to allow the cutters to rotate back father, which might allow the bevel to 'bite', but that would not help the abraded side plates cut the walls of the kerf.

*WINNER?* The rock, brick, or whatever the chain hit.

*LESSONS?* Look before you cut! If you hit something - STOP!

Philbert


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## Rx7man (Nov 17, 2016)

Last thing I hit was a self-drilling, self tapping sheet metal screw with a 1/2 life chain that was good and sharp.. mangled it good too!. I was cutting a stacked pile of logs that had been under a greenhouse when the snow collapsed it, and I guess one of the screws popped out and fell on the stack, and I just HAD to hit it.. At least the screw didn't suffer.


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## heimannm (Nov 17, 2016)

That is some very impressive wear on a chain. No doubt the explanation went something like "I only had a few cuts to finish up".

Mark


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2016)

Rx7man said:


> Since this is supposed to be a challenge... Anyone think they can fix this chain up? Was on a MS170 I fixed the recoil on for a neighbor.. he should be kept away from chainsaws methinks... I got a cooked 394 for fixing the 170, and it had the parts I needed to fix my other 394.. so I was happy
> 
> BTW, all he uses is old engine oil for bar oil.. thing was disgusting to work on
> Sorry for the grainy pic, but I think you get the idea
> ...


I would toss that chain. The tie strap above the rivet it almost fully filed through. No way I would run that. Just asking for it to come apart IMO.


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## svk (Nov 17, 2016)

How come the bottom is so worn? Is this indicative of a well worn sprocket?


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2016)

svk said:


> How come the bottom is so worn? Is this indicative of a well worn sprocket?


Assuming the chain in Post #353?

The Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual says that wear in the center/saddle of the tie straps and cutters is typical from a worn spur sprocket. The peening on the very bottom is from chain tension.

Philbert


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2016)

svk said:


> How come the bottom is so worn? Is this indicative of a well worn sprocket?





Philbert said:


> Assuming the chain in Post #353?
> 
> The Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual says that wear in the center/saddle of the tie straps and cutters is typical from a worn spur sprocket. The peening on the very bottom is from chain tension.
> 
> Philbert


Stuff like this is why I love this place.


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 17, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Assuming the chain in Post #353?
> 
> The Oregon Maintenance and Safety Manual says that wear in the center/saddle of the tie straps and cutters is typical from a worn spur sprocket. The peening on the very bottom is from chain tension.
> 
> Philbert


I might add that peening (or burring) on the bottom of the drive link teeth can also be created by a chain flying off the bar. It can get so bad so quickly that you cannot even mount the same chain back onto the bar without removing the burrs.


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2016)

Marshy said:


> Stuff like this is why I love this place.


Lots of good chain, guide bar, and sprocket wear diagnostics in the Oregon manual:
https://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/pdf/maintenance_manual/ms_manual.pdf

Of course, you would have to be a saw geek to sit down and read it (!) but there are lots of pictures to help!

Philbert


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Lots of good chain, guide bar, and sprocket wear diagnostics in the Oregon manual:
> https://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/pdf/maintenance_manual/ms_manual.pdf
> 
> Of course, you would have to be a saw geek to sit down and read it (!) but there are lots of pictures to help!
> ...


Just knowing the resource exists is well worth it. Even a quick browse I'm sure you'll learn something. Thanks for sharing.


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## briantutt (Nov 17, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> I might add that peening (or burring) on the bottom of the drive link teeth can also be created by a chain flying off the bar. It can get so bad so quickly that you cannot even mount the same chain back onto the bar without removing the burrs.


I can vouch for that I have thrown a couple chains at high RPMS on the 362XP and had to dremel the drive links to get it back onto the bar.

Brian


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## PogoInTheWoods (Nov 17, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Lots of good chain, guide bar, and sprocket wear diagnostics in the Oregon manual:
> https://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/pdf/maintenance_manual/ms_manual.pdf
> 
> Of course, you would have to be a saw geek to sit down and read it (!) but there are lots of pictures to help!
> ...



Carlton's contribution...


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> I might add that peening (or burring) on the bottom of the drive link teeth can also be created by a chain flying off the bar. It can get so bad so quickly that you cannot even mount the same chain back onto the bar without removing the burrs.





briantutt said:


> I can vouch for that I have thrown a couple chains at high RPMS on the 362XP and had to dremel the drive links to get it back onto the bar.


As I understand it, burring of drive links on a thrown chain usually results from them hitting the spur sprocket teeth as they continue to spin - not from the edge of the guide bar rail. Here is my list of remedies (from another thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/deburing-drive-links.249436/#post-4625198)

_1. Flat file on the burrs. Round file to reshape the scraper/ gullet portion if needed. I do this on a small anvil, small block of steel, or the back of a machinists vice.
Slow, but effective.

2. Hold loop 'inside out' and guide drive links against grinding wheel on a bench grinder.
Faster, but leaves rough finish.

3. As above, but use a 3M ScotchBrite (or equivalent) deburring wheel ($30 - $50).
About as fast as a grinding wheel, but leaves a smooth finish. ***My preferred method.*** Expensive, but 'pays for itself' by saving even a few chains.

4. 'Redneck Method #1': force burred links through the bars till they loosen up.
Not always possible. Causes extra wear on bars and sprockets.

5. . 'Redneck Method #2': lay burred drive link on small anvil and flatten burrs with ball peen hammer. Then follow up with . 'Redneck Method #1'.

6. I guess you could also clean up the burrs with a Dremel type tool. Never tried it. 
_
I have seen some drive links actually break off - the ones with the 'Lubri-Link' oil holes in the middle. Those have to be replaced.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 17, 2016)

Philbert said:


> As I understand it, burring of drive links on a thrown chain usually results from them hitting the spur sprocket teeth as they continue to spin - not from the edge of the guide bar rail. Here is my list of remedies (from another thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/deburing-drive-links.249436/#post-4625198)
> 
> _1. Flat file on the burrs. Round file to reshape the scraper/ gullet portion if needed. I do this on a small anvil, small block of steel, or the back of a machinists vice.
> Slow, but effective.
> ...


I tried another method recently (similar to #2 above) that worked after a fashion. I have a small angular stick that holds my grinder/sharpener in the up position. I used that and mounted a flat 1/4" wide wheel that I then used to remove the burrs. I use the same wheel to drop rakers.

This chain was so badly burred by a throw off that nearly every drive link (70) would not go back into the bar. I machined them all and the chain could once again be used. The operator was inexperienced and had used the chain far too loosely on a new bargain saw -- a Poulan Pro no less with a 20" bar. It took about the same length of time as a good sharpening. I also did that afterwards. When I returned it to him I joked, "This chain has had so much attention that it might as well be made out of platinum."


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2016)

Wood Doctor said:


> I have a small angular stick that holds my grinder/sharpener in the up position. I used that and mounted a flat 1/4" wide wheel that I then used to remove the burrs.


Good idea. The newer Oregon style grinders have a 'safety knob' that holds the motor in the full up position - this might be a use for it. Could always use a standard wheel and just re-dress it round, afterwards, if someone did not have a flat edge wheel. I am sure that I will use this idea someday - Thanks!

Philbert


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## Little Al (Nov 18, 2016)

Marshy said:


> Just knowing the resource exists is well worth it. Even a quick browse I'm sure you'll learn something. Thanks for sharing.


Oregon used to do a pocket size booklet that listed the chain info & also the common faults/do/dont's for spockets bars, tips etc. Iv'e had mine for a good few years don't know if it's still available


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 18, 2016)

Little Al said:


> Oregon used to do a pocket size booklet that listed the chain info & also the common faults/do/dont's for spockets bars, tips etc. Iv'e had mine for a good few years don't know if it's still available


I believe the title is Maintenance and Safety Manual. I have one (about 3" x 6") and keep it handy. Most of the info is valid today, but it begs for a revision. About 75 pages, the terminology alone is worth the read.

It's available in electronic form at the Oregon website. Click the bottom right corner to turn the pages:
http://oregonproducts.com/maintenance/manual.htm


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## svk (Feb 12, 2017)

Here's one for you guys. 

This is a chain off a used saw I acquired and the inside edge of the cutter is damaged. Assuming this shouldn't hinder performance being the leading edge isn't damaged?


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## Philbert (Feb 12, 2017)

svk said:


> This is a chain off a used saw I acquired and the inside edge of the cutter is damaged. Assuming this shouldn't hinder performance being the leading edge isn't damaged?



The inside edge of the cutter does not do anything. 

But not sure how they damaged the_ inside _edge of the Left cutters without damaging the _outside_ edges of the Right cutters. hard to tell from your photo.

Philbert


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## svk (Feb 12, 2017)

Philbert said:


> The inside edge of the cutter does not do anything.
> 
> But not sure how they damaged the_ inside _edge of the Left cutters without damaging the _outside_ edges of the Right cutters. hard to tell from your photo.
> 
> Philbert


I did not observe any damage on the leading edge of the opposite cutters. 

This chain appears to be two or three chains spliced together. It ain't pretty but at least all of the cutters are facing the same direction lol.


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## Philbert (Feb 12, 2017)

svk said:


> This chain appears to be two or three chains spliced together. It ain't pretty but at least all of the cutters are facing the same direction lol.


Sounds like it might already be a salvage project!

Bring it with you next time we meet for coffee . . .

Philbert


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## svk (Feb 12, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Sounds like it might already be a salvage project!
> 
> Bring it with you next time we meet for coffee . . .
> 
> Philbert


Will do. Potentially may need to GTG at that Mexican restaurant you mentioned.


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 12, 2017)

I have to wonder if the chain wasn't mounted on backwards and the operator sharpened the trailing edge, thinking that he was sharpening the leading edge. After all, the trailing edge wasn't cutting very well. Just a thought.


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## 67L36Driver (Feb 14, 2017)

Bi directional chain.

That would be very handy. When it gets dull, just turn it around.


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## mohick (Feb 14, 2017)

If you gotta carry a book with you ,you shouldn't be using a chain saw


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## svk (May 11, 2017)

I think we've got something to work with here 

Ironically the rest of the chain is perfect.


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## Philbert (May 11, 2017)

svk said:


> I think we've got something to work with here . . . Ironically the rest of the chain is perfect.


If it's just a few links, easy options:
- shorten the loop for another saw; or
- spin in some donor links; or
- call it 'partial skip-tooth' chain! 

Philbert


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## briantutt (May 11, 2017)

svk said:


> I think we've got something to work with here
> 
> Ironically the rest of the chain is perfect.
> 
> View attachment 578968


maybe load it in upside down and sharpen the drive links. [emoji3] 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## svk (May 11, 2017)

Since it's a non safety chain from a 18" LP bar I'd say it's a great candidate to shorten.


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## PogoInTheWoods (May 12, 2017)

Looks like it could get buy with just a little touch up....




(Courtesy - Walter Glover)​


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## Philbert (May 12, 2017)

That Wood Grind!

Philbert


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 12, 2017)

If you want to cover the ~$18 shipping I'll mail you a big flat rate of old loops. They are likely going in the dumpster otherwise. Have 4 or 5 pails full.


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## Philbert (May 12, 2017)

Sort them by size and offer them in the Xmas giving thread (even in May)!

Guys might make better use of a box of, say .325 chain, or narrow kerf, then a box of random sizes.

Philbert


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 4, 2017)

My 'Nick the Grinder' had a problem.

Seems something caused it to spin weld the motor end to the wheel guard.






I can feel no play radial or axiel to cause it.

So, drilled a clearence hole to prevent a reocurrence.


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## Philbert (Jun 4, 2017)

*Been a While . . . *

I continue to scrounge, salvage, and save chains, but have not been reporting on it much. Not very interesting when the same story repeats itself. But I will try to post a few, newer case studies.
*
Challenge Chain # 24*(?)

Received a chain from '_a friend_', who got it from his '_friend_', who basically said the chain was '_cursed_'; he had tried _everything_, but the chain still would not cut.


First step is a good cleaning to see what we have.



Did not _look_ like a chain from Hell, but inspected it closely due to the comments which accompanied it.




Two things were noticeable:

1. Although both the top plate and side plate edges were sharp, the leading corner (or 'point') was damaged on all of the right side cutters. This is important on full-chisel chains, which lead with the corner. This damage essentially created a tiny bevel to push the cutter away from the wood, rather than lead the cutter into the cut.

2. One of the _'friends_' had apparently dropped the depth gauges successively lower attempting to make 'the-chain-that-won't-cut' cut. I measured offsets of .035" to .040" using a feeler gauge. But, by fling the depth gauges flat, this person created new, sharp corners at the front of each depth gauge, which could dig into the wood when the cutter tips back, creating excessive drag.

I put the cleaned chain on a grinder, and evened up all of the cutters, taking them back, just past the damaged corners. I went back with the ScotchBrite wheels (see Post #284) and rounded over each depth gauge to something closer to the factory profile (I did not want to take them any lower, or make them any lower than the low-kickback bumpers).



Reconditioned chain is on top. Bottom is a section of the '_before_' chain (I shortened the original loop to fit a smaller bar). The differences are small, if you are not looking for the details. My '_friend_' says that the reconditioned loop of _the-chain-that-won't-cut_ 'works great', and 'cuts awesome in softwood'. I did not test it before, or after, so I have to take his word.

*WINNER?* Philbert! (and his '_friend_').

*LESSONS?* Details matter: the leading point is important on full-chisel chains, and manufacturers recommend rounding over depth gauges to factory profiles for a reason.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 4, 2017)

Here's one for you, Philbert. I seem to recall seeing a chain like this somewhere before..., maybe even earlier in this thread? It's on a Homelite 1050A I acquired a few years ago that I recently pulled out to go over and hopefully get running. Got it running, but it sure wasn't gonna cut anything with this chain. Obviously got into something mighty abrasive to create such an even bevel on both sides. All the cutters are the same. What surprises me are the rakers don't show more unusual wear or deformity. The rounding of the rear corner opposite the working corner also seems a little unusual..., unless of course this chain is supposed to look this way! An awful lot of material will need to be removed to make it a 'normal' chain again.

​


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## svk (Jun 4, 2017)

You the man @Philbert!!!


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## LegDeLimber (Jun 4, 2017)

67L36Driver said:


> My 'Nick the Grinder' had a problem.
> Seems something caused it to spin weld the motor end to the wheel guard.


 My guess would be the motor shaft is magnetized and the grinding cruft is accumulating there.
Add a bit of static charge while spinning and could be when it gets started?


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## Philbert (Jun 4, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I seem to recall seeing a chain like this somewhere before..., maybe even earlier in this thread? . . . got into something mighty abrasive to create such an even bevel on both sides. . . .An awful lot of material will need to be removed to make it a 'normal' chain again.


Yes. See post #353, above. You would have to grind past the damage.

Philbert


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## Finnrpm (Jun 7, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Here's one for you, Philbert. I seem to recall seeing a chain like this somewhere before..., maybe even earlier in this thread? It's on a Homelite 1050A I acquired a few years ago that I recently pulled out to go over and hopefully get running. Got it running, but it sure wasn't gonna cut anything with this chain. Obviously got into something mighty abrasive to create such an even bevel on both sides. All the cutters are the same. What surprises me are the rakers don't show more unusual wear or deformity. The rounding of the rear corner opposite the working corner also seems a little unusual..., unless of course this chain is supposed to look this way! An awful lot of material will need to be removed to make it a 'normal' chain again.
> 
> View attachment 583243​



Powersharp been used on standard chain, if " sharpening " is continued, it will make top plate so thin it will break when trying to make a cut.......
Bought saw from local craigslist while back and it had two chains, one without top plates and one with thin ones!!!! Seller offered powersharp with the saw and said " this is really good sharpener!!"
Just replied " I file my chains, you can keep it!!"

RV


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## Deleted member 149229 (Jun 7, 2017)

Finnrpm said:


> Bought saw from local craigslist while back and it had two chains, one without top plates and one with thin ones!!!! Seller offered powersharp with the saw and said " this is really good sharpener!!"
> Just replied " I file my chains, you can keep it!!"



Only been into saws a couple years but was a machinist my whole life. First time I saw a Powersharp my initial reaction was "You have to be sh****ng me." That invention rates right up there with the Pet Rock, rap music and lite beer.


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## Philbert (Jun 7, 2017)

PowerSharp chains are covered in other threads - I'd like to keep this one on salvaging chains, unless of course, it is salvaging a PowerSharp chain!

Thanks.

Philbert

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oregon-powersharp.125402/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/powersharp.148391/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/oregon-power-sharp-any-good.211415/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-power-sharp-system.159381/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/setting-rakers-on-powersharp-chains.292028/


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 13, 2017)

Just the 3/8" LP salvaged out of two 40# flat rate boxes of chain from Valleyfirewood. Forty loops.[emoji15]





I was very picky.

Phil would squeal at what I tossed in the junk.


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 13, 2017)

I could have tossed out a stretched chain for a Stihl MS460 today with a 28" bar. It had 91 drive links on board, exactly what Stihl and the bar itself recommends. Unfortunately, it could not be tightened. This chain was not even half used up. But, the chain tensioner was all the way out and the chain was still too loose. I elected to remove a drive link and install the chain again. That worked and I salvaged the chain.

The saw owner wanted two more chains. I tried making a chain with 90 drive links of new chain, but it could not be installed. So I added one more drive link and then made the second one also with 91 DL's. Both looked very good and tightened up nicely. I have to wonder how many 91 DL chains on Stihl MS460 saws with 28" bars cannot be tightened after they get used awhile. They can be salvaged, but you have to knock off a drive link.

Seems like Stihl might have made a small design blunder here, but I hate to be critical.


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## Philbert (Jun 13, 2017)

67L36Driver said:


> Just the 3/8" LP salvaged out of two 40# flat rate boxes of chain from Valleyfirewood. . . . Phil would squeal at what I tossed in the junk.


'_*S*_*queal*_*!'*_

(Mail me the rejects )

Phbert


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 13, 2017)

Philbert said:


> '_*S*_*queal*_*!'*_
> (Mail me the rejects )
> Phbert


I think Philbert would squeal even louder if he knew I threw away a good sharp chain with 91 drive links on board for an MS 460 with a 28" bar that could not be tightened. So, I refused to do it and saved the chain by knocking out one DL. Considering how many Stihl MS 460s have been sold with 28" bars, you have to wonder how many used but usable chains have been tossed out because they are too loose and cannot be tensioned by this saw.

Frankly, I was surprised and now I'm squealing.


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 13, 2017)

Philbert said:


> '_*S*_*queal*_*!'*_
> 
> (Mail me the rejects )
> 
> Phbert



No.



I will not be an enabler and feed your OCD.[emoji56]

Your Wife/S.O. will thank me.


[emoji48]


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 13, 2017)

I do however have a challenge worthy of the most proficient chain restorer.

9/16" x .080" x 56 dl loop on my gear drive Remington. Needs a lot of the cutters replaced. I have a pile of Remy/Mall repair kits.








Looks like it was filed on by a crazy person with a way undersized file.[emoji849]


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## Philbert (Jun 13, 2017)

Not possible! Only crazy people with _grinders _ruin chains . . .

Philbert


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## Finnrpm (Jun 14, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Not possible! Only crazy people with _grinders _ruin chains . . .
> 
> Philbert


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 14, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Sort them by size and offer them in the Xmas giving thread (even in May)!
> 
> Guys might make better use of a box of, say .325 chain, or narrow kerf, then a box of random sizes.
> 
> Philbert



It'd be way cheaper for me to take 3 mins to dump them in the trash than spend hours sorting chains!


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 14, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> It'd be way cheaper for me to take 3 mins to dump them in the trash than spend hours sorting chains!



But, you still workin' for a livin'.

Geezers do that for entertainment.[emoji108]


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## Philbert (Jun 14, 2017)

It's not all about the money . . .

Philbert


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## svk (Jun 14, 2017)

It's clearly not something he (VF) is interested in doing but there's definitely money in it. 

If you sold a flat rate box that was sorted by pitch and gauge (leaving DL count out of it), that would bring in good money from a guy like me who has lots of saws that only run one or two different pitch/gauge combinations.


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## Philbert (Jun 14, 2017)

I have more chains than I can use . . just hate to see them tossed out if someone can use them.

Philbert


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## Ted Jenkins (Jun 14, 2017)

I do not change saws very often as compared to many folks here at AS so salvaged chains are few. I wore through at least 10 chains in the last two years with out any thing left. When the chain wears down to about 25% of original and the teeth start breaking or bending they go to the metal pile. Is this NOT what most every body does? If my understanding is correct many AS people toss chains that are only worn to 50%. Why would this happen? I save some chains that are worn partially from saws or bar combinations that does not have much immediately need. Then they can be spliced to another chain that is about the same wear point. Those that sell or repair saws for a living would not usually spend any time sorting out chains for resale. Thanks


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## TheTone (Jun 14, 2017)

I can think of a couple for smaller saws, like 3/8LP .050 55 and 3/8LP .050 50 (and Picco .043 50) that there would be many takers for, me included.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 14, 2017)

Folks who never have depth gauges adjusted to compensate for repeated cutter sharpenings would certainly think their chain was a goner at 50% (if not sooner). They sure wouldn't be cuttin' much of anything. Not knowing why not they probably just write it off as a 'worn out' chain.


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## 67L36Driver (Jun 14, 2017)

The 'flat rate box' allows me to add two or three extra loops to a saw I sell on C'list. Something to sweeten the deal for the reluctant buyer.

And, I culled out a lot of orphans I had hanging on the pegboard.[emoji108]

No, Phil, not sending you the culls.[emoji56]


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 14, 2017)

Philbert said:


> It's not all about the money . . .
> 
> Philbert



I always seem to have way more work than time, so I try to work at the more important things.
If I had no new firewood orders, nothing break or need maintenance, no added work, I could stay busy for easily a year or two just working on the current to-do list, even with 2 hired hands.

Even packing up boxes of chains "wastes" time. Takes a good 30 mins to glue up a sturdy box, fill it up and mail it. But it nice to see them going to someone that can use them.
I w dug in a bit to find loops I can use, it's easier for me to just make a new loop. We usually stock a few thousand feet of chain in all popular sizes.

I'm currently using up about 300 ft of 3/8 .058 on my Stihls. I just opened up a D009 bar slot on the mill and it works great. Mostly because I was told it couldn't be done.

At home sick today. Got a back discography yesterday, damn that hurt. The actual procedure wasn't too bad, but later that day I was at about 7-8 on the back pain scale.

https://www.mayfieldclinic.com/PE-DISCO.htm

Doc said go home... I worked... lightly. Mostly paperwork.

Left work with a very sore throat. That started around noon. Was up all last night coughing and wheezing. Not a whole lot better today. Feel like I've been run over by a log truck.


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## TheTone (Jun 14, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> At home sick today. Got a back discography yesterday, damn that hurt. The actual procedure wasn't too bad, but later that day I was at about 7-8 on the back pain scale.



I had lumbar spine surgery in January - ironic since in all my life I hadn't had even a backache that I could remember before this trouble started. No disk herniation, just lots of bony hypertrophy from wear and tear and heavy lifting when I was younger (and not so younger) and thought I was bulletproof. Anyway, the surgery was totally successful, so good luck to you if it gets that far. I feel (or felt anyway) your pain.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jun 17, 2017)

TheTone said:


> I had lumbar spine surgery in January - ironic since in all my life I hadn't had even a backache that I could remember before this trouble started. No disk herniation, just lots of bony hypertrophy from wear and tear and heavy lifting when I was younger (and not so younger) and thought I was bulletproof. Anyway, the surgery was totally successful, so good luck to you if it gets that far. I feel (or felt anyway) your pain.



Ended up at the Doc. Now on amoxicillian, prednisone and another one. Feeling a bit better. Lost almost all week being sick though.


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## Philbert (Jul 10, 2017)

*Challenge Chains # 25 and #26*

Couple of chains that a friend received along with a used saw purchase. Both were full chisel chains that had some abrasion or damage to the leading points, which was not fully observable until cleaned.

Chain #25





A little hard to see from the photos, but the abrasion on the side plates of many of Left hand cutters extended all the way back. Even grinding back to the 'witness mark' (end-of-life marking) might only produce a chain that cut poorly. Maybe if this was the only chain I had, but not worth the effort.

Chain #25

This chain had damage to all of the leading points / corners on one side, but it did not travel all the way back.





While I still had to remove a lot of material to get back to clean, Left hand cutters (and then match the Right hand cutters), it yielded a useable chain with quite a bit of life left in it. I used a resinoid wheel to hog off the large amount of metal without overheating the cutters. Then I adjusted and rounded the depth gauges.

*WINNER?* Rocks -1; Philbert-1.

*LESSONS?* Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose. But the odds are generally in your favor, especially when you 'have nothing to lose'!


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jul 10, 2017)

Out of curiosity, what type of resinoid wheel for hogging? And what do you usually use? (I'm sure you've mentioned it somewhere along the line...)

And check out my new _free_ grinder! Should make life much easier when a good grind is required. I ran the snot out of my HF (or NT?) 511 knock-off until it just wouldn't hold an adjustment any longer. Got some serious mileage out of it, but this AX is on a whole other level by comparison. (You tried to tell me, Philbert.) Got it from a tree service guy whose saws I take care of. He bought it new a couple of years ago. Tried using it a few times instead of his hand jig and Dremel. Hated it. Found it clumsy and slow. Put it back in the box. Stayed there until he gave it to me and I took it out last week..., still like new.

​
*Winner?* (Yeah. I SUCK.)
*
Lessons?* Fix busy tree guys' saws fast and economically for em -- (while they wait, if you can)!!!

​


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## Philbert (Jul 10, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Out of curiosity, what type of resinoid wheel for hogging? And what do you usually use?


The resinoid wheels are Bailey's item MOL A18728B and MOL A18728C Molemab Black Resin Grinding Wheel

Discussed in this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/resinoid-grinder-wheels.256733/
Now that Total / Tilton has closed shop, baileys is the only place that I know of to get them.

I usually just use the 'pink' Oregon or Molemab wheels, use a light touch, and dress the wheels often.​
Great score on the 511AX! Sounds like you_ earned_ it!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Aug 13, 2017)

*Challenge Chains # 27 and #28*

Couple of chains recently submitted. They will come out better than the photos (sorry)

Chain #27



An Oregon 3/8, low-profile loop that lost a fight with something hard. Rounded cutting bevels and damaged top plates need to be filed or ground back a bit. But the chassis (tie straps, drive links, etc.) is still in good condition, and this is a commonly used chain, so worth a little bit of effort. With some careful set up of the grinder, the chain should still have 1/4 to 1/3 of its useful life left.

Chain #28



A 1/4 pitch chain that someone's friend offered to sharpen for him. The well intentioned guy definitely gets the deal about the '30° top plate angle' (top view) but not the part about each cutter having 2 cutting edges / bevels. Those laid back profiles look more like Santa's sleigh than a saw chain! Not sure what the chain looked like before 'the help', but there is probably enough tooth left to re-profile and get some more use out of this loop. Again, easier with a grinder to get the new profiles consistent.






*WINNER?* Philbert - got a couple of usable loops, even if they are over half way used.

*LESSONS?* Look at the cutters from all sides, and be careful who offers to help!


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## svk (Aug 13, 2017)

I've seen a few of those "no hook" chains. Always wondered what was up.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 14, 2017)

Bench or die grinder maybe? For that chain I believe I would sacrifice a file and hog out the gullet by hand to give your grinder a head start.


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## rd35 (Aug 14, 2017)

Grinder operator put the chain on the grinder backwards. Just one of those days!!


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## Philbert (Aug 14, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> For that chain I believe I would sacrifice a file and hog out the gullet by hand to give your grinder a head start.


Grinder is faster, more consistent, and probably less expensive (wear on wheel vs cost of file) IMO.

But whatever works. Could be a relaxing time with a file, in the shop, with the radio on in the background . . .

Philbert


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## president (Aug 14, 2017)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Out of curiosity, what type of resinoid wheel for hogging? And what do you usually use? (I'm sure you've mentioned it somewhere along the line...)
> 
> And check out my new _free_ grinder! Should make life much easier when a good grind is required. I ran the snot out of my HF (or NT?) 511 knock-off until it just wouldn't hold an adjustment any longer. Got some serious mileage out of it, but this AX is on a whole other level by comparison. (You tried to tell me, Philbert.) Got it from a tree service guy whose saws I take care of. He bought it new a couple of years ago. Tried using it a few times instead of his hand jig and Dremel. Hated it. Found it clumsy and slow. Put it back in the box. Stayed there until he gave it to me and I took it out last week..., still like new.
> 
> ...


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 24, 2017)

These are the same Stihl chains. One new and the other two obviously well used. The guy primarily cuts nasty and dirty slab wood bundles into firewood. Lots of chain heat generated by those conditions resulting in the obvious wear/"stretching" shown in the pics. Saw is a Stihl MS310 running a 20" b/c with a more than adequate oiler. Bar is in good shape and the sprocket was recently replaced. The older chains still appear to be in somewhat serviceable shape with a little cutter length remaining. No excessive wear on the bottoms of the tie straps or the drive links. That pretty much leaves the rivets/presets as the primary wear points to account for the lengthening..., just a hair too much for the range of the chain adjuster now. 

So is the wear/stretching to the degree shown in the pics a safety concern, or is it cool (common practice) to just shorten the chain to extend its otherwise useful life? (He has four or five of these older chains.) Figure there's a 'rule-of-thumb' out there somewhere for this. As usual, TIA for any enlightenment.




​


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## heimannm (Oct 24, 2017)

I would not recommend to run a badly worn/stretched chain on a new sprocket, but certainly keep running the worn ones on worn sprockets to get all of the good out of them.

I always try to match the condition of the chain and drive sprocket, new chains with new sprockets and used chains with used sprockets. If he recently installed a new sprocket, avoid using a badly stretched chain for a while at least to minimize premature damage to the new sprocket.

Mark


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 24, 2017)

Makes sense. So shortening the worn chains shouldn't necessarily pose a problem otherwise?


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 24, 2017)

I suppose the other main consideration for sticking with an old worn sprocket for an older worn chain (within reason, of course) is if an older chain does actually break and bind at the sprocket causing additional damage it wouldn't be that big of a deal compared to buggering up a brand new sprocket.


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## heimannm (Oct 24, 2017)

Keep the nose sprocket in mind as well, as the chain "stretches" the drivers don't fit the pitch of the nose sprocket as either, I think that is why you see nose sprockets that are worn to a sharp point. Keep a worn/stretched chain with a worn bar (nose sprocket) and drive sprocket to avoid damage to new components.

Those chains are 72 DL, to "grow" and inch means each rivet has 0.006 to 0.007" of wear so they aren't going to fit new sprockets correctly but it doesn't mean there is any structural damage or loss of strength. The only chain I remember breaking was from a 24" bar on my old Jonsered (came with my 621 but I was using in on a 930) that was worn/filed until the corner of the top plate had reached the rear edge of the cutter. I did not have to remove any drivers but the chain was noticeably longer than a newer one. 

For all of the cutting I have done, I only remember the one broken chain.

Mark


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## Philbert (Oct 24, 2017)

With rim sprockets I suppose that you could swap them in and out with the chains.

Or figure that a rim sprocket costs about $7 and a chain maybe $15 -$25, and decide if extra wear on one is worth getting extra life out of the other.

Might also make a difference if you are a 'one chain on one saw' kind of guy, or someone who swaps out 3-4 loops per day.

Mark's point on the nose sprocket is also something to consider. 

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 24, 2017)

Roger on the nose sprocket (and the math, Mark). The drive sprocket is a spur in this situation. A rim drive would be a better choice for all the obvious reasons, but a spur is just as easy to change on this particular saw. Guess I'll shorten the chains and see if my breaker/spinner skills are any good. Haven't used the setup since I bought it and today was going to be the day I finally tried it out anyway.

'Preciate the input, fellas. Thanks.


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## heimannm (Oct 24, 2017)

Use a small dab of grease or oil on the rivet, tighten while spinning, check often so you don't over-do it. Once you like it, note the final position of the clamp and try to keep them all about the same position.

Mark


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## Philbert (Nov 7, 2017)

*Challenge Chain # 29*



This chain came on an electric chainsaw that a friend got at a garage sale: 3/8 low profile, low kickback, low value. I fixed him up with a reconditioned Oregon chain, and he was very happy.

Lots of rust - some links completely covered/encrusted. Lots of wear along the side plates, like, maybe, someone was cutting next to a stone wall. Lots of neglect. Surface rust _might_ not be that hard to remove - did lots of this in earlier threads. _Could_ grind the cutters back, past the heavy abrasion (remove 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining cutters?). _Could_ break out a few of the really bad cutters and spin it down to a smaller size loop.

Just would be a lot of work for a low value chain. If it was the only one like it, or if I really needed 3/8 low profile chains, it might be different. Headed to the recycling bin, where it can cross the rainbow bridge, and maybe come back as a new chain!

*WINNERS?* Entropy. Neglect. Carelessness.

*LESSONS?* Sometimes it is worth it, sometimes less so . . .


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## svk (Dec 4, 2017)

@Philbert 
I have a few chains that are pretty gummed up from cutting very wet red oak. Do you know of anything that will dissolve baked on oak sap?


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## Deleted member 149229 (Dec 4, 2017)

svk said:


> @Philbert
> I have a few chains that are pretty gummed up from cutting very wet red oak. Do you know of anything that will dissolve baked on oak sap?



Not red oak but other types, PB Blaster.


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## Philbert (Dec 4, 2017)

I start with SuperClean (or similar water-based cleaners with sodium hydroxide). Toothbrush or TIG welding scratch brush (stainless steel). 

Philbert


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## svk (Dec 4, 2017)

I can try that. This stuff is like matte finish enamel.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 5, 2017)

Lacquer thinner?


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## schmauster (Dec 5, 2017)

Love this thread, been following it for a long time. 

Ordering my Oxalic Acid as a stocking stuffer 


I still suck at sharpening but this thread has been a great baseline of what things should look like. Im sure youre helping a lot of people that dont chime in


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## ken morgan (Dec 15, 2017)

good read Phil, jumped on this a couple of days ago after all the comments on the guy that was trying to recondition an old craftsman that had been dunked and left dunked in water. It seems to me that you have covered all of the bases I would have tried for rust removal, (and a few I would not have thought of) fun is where you find it thats for sure, and some of the chains in this thread were well how can I say it just wow... cheers and I will keep following to see if you have any other tricks hidden up your sleeve.


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## Philbert (Dec 15, 2017)

ken morgan said:


> cheers and I will keep following to see if you have any other tricks hidden up your sleeve.


Thanks. 

Hope that you may have some 'tricks' or experiences to share as well. 

Philbert


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## Jhenderson (Dec 15, 2017)

Philbert said:


> *Challenge Chain # 29*
> 
> View attachment 611445
> 
> ...



Please tell us how one " Reconditions" a chain.


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## Philbert (Dec 15, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> Please tell us how one " Reconditions" a chain.


All in this thread, and in the 'Philbert Meets the STIHL RS3' thread.
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/philbert-meets-the-stihl-rs3.202969/

Starts with cleaning;
Then inspection;
Repairing or replacing damaged components;
Sharpening / evening out the cutters;
Clearing the gullets;
Adjusting and rounding the depth gauges;
Re-lubing.

Skip any steps not needed. Add any (e.g. surface rust treatment) needed.

Philbert


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## Jhenderson (Dec 15, 2017)

In other words, standard maintainance.


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## Philbert (Dec 15, 2017)

Jhenderson said:


> In other words, standard maintainance.


For some.

Many guys toss a chain if it needs more than a simple filing. That was the point of this thread, that a lot of usable chains go to waste.

Some guys don't want to take the time. Some don't know how. Some guys howl when I mention '_cleaning a chain'_!

Some of the chains I recondition (see photos in this thread) are so covered in gunk that you can't even tell for sure what brand it is. Some have rust. Some have burred drive links that won't even fit into the bar grooves. Some have cutters on one side that are half the length of the other side, or filed at completely different angles. Some have hit rocks, damaging the cutters at least half way back. Some need to be shortened, lengthened, or have new cutters / drive links / tie straps spun in. Sometimes it is taking a chain that was damaged, abused, neglected, or just not usable and making it cut efficiently. Other times, a chain just needs a light cleaning and a good edge.

If this stuff is standard maintenance for you, then you should also be able get the full, useful life of chains that others discard.

Philbert


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## ken morgan (Dec 17, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Hope that you may have some 'tricks' or experiences to share as well.
> 
> Philbert


Gotta admit as I read this that you covered all of the normal things I would have tried (ATF kerosene, phosphoric, muratic, (acids) and citrus based type cleaners as well as the normal suspects like liquid wrench, as well as things I had not thought of (ultrasonic cleaning? sounds like something for hospital or dental tools to me) Your heating in an oven kinda covers the whole heating and breaking of rust, though I honestly think you could go a little hotter without damaging the temper of the parts. one thing I would try would be a micro butane torch or jewelers torch along with something to rapidly cool the part. as in heat just the area where the rivet goes through the pivot point while simultaneously cooling the rivet itself the thermal shock might be enough to break any rust loose t then allow the usual suspects to get in and do their jobs. (though at this point it might be just splitting hairs. ) regardless a good read, well documented and a treasure trove for those trying to restore an older chain that is no longer readily available.


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## Philbert (Dec 26, 2017)

*Challenge Chains 30 A, B, C, D E*

A set of five, 3/8 low profile chains, with significant rust and gunk visible. Different brands and different DL counts. Not sure if they all came from the same user. A couple of the loops rusted so bad that parts were frozen in shape and would not move.







_U-G-L-Y !


_

First step is always cleaning.




Two of the five chains cleaned up OK . The one on the top was worn down to the nubs (looks even more worn from the top - not shown). What I like about that is the user got full use of the chain - nothing left on the table - but the drive links and tie straps still look good, which means that it was well treated: chain tension, bar oil, and sprocket condition. The loop on the bottom needs to be sharpened, and has over 1/3 of it's useful life left.



These 3 loops did not fare as well. Cleaning revealed that part of each loop (top parts in this photo) has significant rust, while part of each loop (bottom parts in this photo) cleaned up pretty good. If these were special or unique chains, it might be worth trying some of the rust removal methods, used in the early part of this thread, to save additional links.




Instead, I decided to just break off the good links to use for repair parts. These are fairly common chains, but there are many variations of tie straps, drive links, and bumper links that it is nice to have a variety of links to match if repairing or lengthening a loop. Rusty parts get recycled.

*WINNERS?* The original user of one chain got his money's worth. Rust and neglect won some. I got one clean loop and several sections of repair links.

*LESSONS?* Rust never sleeps, but sometimes you can get in before it has completed its job completely.

Philbert


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## svk (Dec 26, 2017)

In your opinion, are the "tri bumper" depth gauges more or less work to readjust than the bumper drive link version?

I see some McC chains in there. Perhaps those came from Iowa via Steve's courier service.


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## Philbert (Dec 26, 2017)

svk said:


> In your opinion, are the "tri bumper" depth gauges more or less work to readjust than the bumper drive link version?


Older style low-kickback chains used bumpers on the tie straps, like those in the photo above. Oregon used those solid bumpers, and later, bumpers with a hole / slot to reduce weight. Those chains were produced for a number of companies, and stamped with different names, including McCulloch.

The McCulloch 'Mini' chain above looks more like a Carlton chain. Tri-Link has copied this design on some of their current chains. In addition to the unique bumper fins, note how the cutters on the cleaned chain are chromed across the top, with a clear line, whereas the Oregon cutters appear to be chromed on the cutting portion only, and not on the depth gauge. I get a lot of old McCulloch chains as they were once one of the two, dominant chainsaw companies in the US, and these chains are hanging around in garages, basements, etc.

STIHL used a triple humped version of these tie strap bumpers which overlap the depth gauges more than the Oregon - this makes it a bit harder to file / grind the depth gauges, and especially to round the depth gauges over, after adjusting. Still a good STIHL chain, so it is usually worth the extra hassle.



The newer chains mostly use the _drive link bumpers_, which interfere less with chip carrying. However the _bumper tie strap_ chains provide a smoother cut on smaller branches (apparently what they were originally designed to do), and some people still prefer this style for pole saws.

Philbert


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## svk (Dec 26, 2017)

Philbert said:


> *The newer chains mostly use the drive link bumpers*, which interfere less with chip carrying. *However the bumper tie strap chains provide a smoother cut* on smaller branches (apparently what they were originally designed to do), and some people still prefer this style for pole saws.


Learned something today. I guess I have seen bumper tie strap chains many times but never consciously recognized that they had the depth gauges on the tie strap versus the driver.

Most of my low profile chains are either the bumper DL/bumper TS version (either Oregon or virtually identical McC branded), 91 with the low ramp in the DL and the true depth gauge on the cutter, or 91 VX/VXL with no ramp. Usually when I sell a small saw I will throw in a spare bumper loop to simplify my life. I'd love to just run Stihl PS on all of my little saws but it seems like every little saw I acquire comes with multiple spare safety chains which I am not about to throw away.


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## Philbert (Dec 26, 2017)

svk said:


> . . . never consciously recognized that they had the depth gauges on the tie strap versus the driver.


All of these chains have the _depth gauges_ on the same link as the cutter. Then they have low-kickback _bumpers_ on either the tie strap or drive link.

Tie strap bumpers, such as on Oregon 91 VG (top)
Drive link bumpers, such as on STIHL 26RM3 (bottom)



Drive link bumpers are less intrusive: act more like 'yellow chain', except as the cutters round the bar nose. Tie strap bumper can cut slower, especially in large wood, and make it even harder to bore cut. But, as noted, provide a smoother cut with smaller diameter wood. 



svk said:


> . . every little saw I acquire comes with multiple spare safety chains which I am not about to throw away.


I might have a suggestion!

Philbert


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## svk (Dec 26, 2017)

Thank you, sorry for using the wrong terminology!

Those "adopted" chains are great for cutting gritty wood. I always leave a small saw wearing safety chain at the landing for bucking skidded wood.

If only Stihl, Echo, and Homelite that wear low profile chain didn't feel the need to reinvent the wheel with their proprietary bars that are always one or two DL's off from the rest of the major Mfg's!!!

I have two Disston branded bars that fit both small Stihl and the common A041 mount and use the standard 52 DL chains for 14".


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## svk (Jun 24, 2019)

This is the strangest chain I’ve personally seen. Came on a 032 I bought last weekend.

Some of the cutters have no width, the rest are sharpened at a very slight angle. 

The funny thing is the small cutters are always 2-4 in a row then back to regular cutters.


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## TheTone (Jun 24, 2019)

Filed for ripping?


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## Philbert (Jun 24, 2019)

svk said:


> This is the strangest chain I’ve personally seen.
> Some of the cutters have no width, the rest are sharpened at a very slight angle.





TheTone said:


> Filed for ripping?


Yep.

Granberg sells pre-made ripping chain like that, with extra scoring cutters. Ripping cutters are typically ground at 5° to 10° instead of 30°.
My local STIHL dealer still modifies chains like that for customers that ask for it, so they may have made that loop!
https://granberg.com/product/g728-0-325-pitch-050-gauge/

Touch up the edges and try ripping with it, to see if you notice a difference, compared to conventional crosscut chain.


Philbert


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## svk (Jun 24, 2019)

Ah, interesting!


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## briantutt (Jun 24, 2019)

Philbert said:


> Yep.
> 
> Granberg sells pre-made ripping chain like that, with extra scoring cutters. Ripping cutters are typically ground at 5° to 10° instead of 30°.
> My local STIHL dealer still modifies chains like that for customers that ask for it, so they may have made that loop!
> ...


Yep. I bought ripping chain for my husky 65 and it is ground at probably 10 degrees, works great.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Woodslasher (Nov 27, 2019)

While I've successfully restored roller nose bars before, chains are a new challenge for me. I've decided to try 2 chains in recycled red dye diesel and 50ft of nos 404 in a tank of solvent. If they don't work, they'll get soaked in vinegar which is my personal preference for de-rusting. Overnight the red dye mostly fixed one chain, but the other will take a little more work. I'll post updates when I can. Sorry for the bad pics, they looked better on my phone than they do here.


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## jakethesnake (Nov 27, 2019)

I’ve cleaned up some really bad looking 404 I have some pictures somewhere


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## Philbert (Nov 27, 2019)

Woodslasher said:


> I've decided to try 2 chains in recycled red dye diesel and 50ft of nos 404 in a tank of solvent. If they don't work, they'll get soaked in vinegar which is my personal preference for de-rusting.


I tried a lot of things, and posted quite a bit in the early pages of this thread, on removing rust. Several things can work: some advantages / disadvantages to each. 

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 4, 2020)

Another '_rusty chain_' thread for reference:

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/rust-removal-from-chains.338758/

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 20, 2020)

I'll take two.


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## HarleyT (Jan 20, 2020)

Philbert said:


> A bit off-topic: might be more appropriate for a grinder thread.
> 
> That said, there is a long history of rotary grinders sold to sharpen saw chain: Granberg, STIHL, Oregon, Dremel, etc.
> 
> ...


Sniff.......

Sorry.......

I'll remove it.......


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## TheTone (Jan 21, 2020)

@Philbert immortalized in a craft beer.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 21, 2020)

With hazelnuts!


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## Philbert (Jan 21, 2020)

TheTone said:


> @Philbert immortalized in a craft beer.


!!!

I will be in Memphis this Spring. Might have to look it up!

Philbert


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## TheTone (Jan 21, 2020)

Philbert said:


> !!!
> I will be in Memphis this Spring. Might have to look it up!
> Philbert



The brewery is in midtown in a trendy area on Broad St. In the back of the building is a good size pub with their wares in bottles and on tap. My favorite is an American Imperial Stout named Astronaut Status. . . and for good reason; the alcohol content is 12.8%.


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## JW51 (Jan 21, 2020)

I was gonna start a thread with this question, but probably fits here just as well. Can someone make a recommendation on bare-bones tools for chain breaking and making? 

I think I’m gonna start shortening the chains from my primary saw once they get down near the witness mark, and run them until end-of-life on my backup saw.


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## Philbert (Jan 21, 2020)

JW51 said:


> I was gonna start a thread with this question, but probably fits here just as well. Can someone make a recommendation on bare-bones tools for chain breaking and making?



I started this one a while back, which follows my learning curve:

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/baileys-chain-breaker-and-spinner.144859/

The set I would buy today is this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tecomec-Ch...301401?hash=item58e9d6f759:g:d0UAAOSww3tY7Vb7

I tried the Granberg '_Break-N-Mend_' but was not as impressed with it as I hoped:

https://granberg.com/product/g605c-break-n-mendbreaks-rivets-chain/

You _can_ use just a chain anvil, punch, and ball-peen hammer, but again, the results are not as good. It _IS_ the most 'bare boned' approach:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pocket-Bre...Repair-6-slotted-Anvil-2-Punches/381873931176

I recommend buying new presets, not re-using old ones that were punched out.

Philbert


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## heimannm (Jan 21, 2020)

Bare bones? Grind the heads off the rivets with your bench grinder and knock the link out with a pin punch. Peen the new rivets with a ball peen hammer. 

Alternative for breaking would be a simple tool like this:

https://www.greendadeoutdoor.com/pr...h-for-breaker-joiner-tool?variant=50224727878

Mark


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## svk (Feb 22, 2020)

Philbert I acquired a .325 chain that was ground at about a 45 degree angle. 

I’ve sharpened it at a 25 degree angle now but only the first third of the cutter wears the new angle. 

I guess I’ll put it into the wood and see what happens. The depth gauges are way low as well. Guessing this was a chain that someone kid at a hardware store got ahold of and butchered it on the grinder.


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## svk (Feb 22, 2020)

Update: It is way to grabby so it’s going to need to be sharpened back to the point the depth gauges are set properly and the cutting edge has a suitable angle.


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## Wood Doctor (Feb 22, 2020)

svk said:


> Update: It is way too grabby so it’s going to need to be sharpened back to the point the depth gauges are set properly and the cutting edge has a suitable angle.


Correct. You hate to do it because the chain's life is then shortened, but you really have no choice. The alternative is to throw the chain away because the saw's engine cannot pull the chain through the cut. Really soft wood might allow it to work, but I have watched chains like this bog down in both cottonwood and poplar.


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## Philbert (Apr 11, 2020)

*Long Time No Post . . . *

Have not had any special challenge chains sent to me in a while, but I still use all of the methods described on 'regular' chains, as needed. Ran across this helpful video which explains the chemistry behind most of the rust removal methods described in this thread. Very interesting if you want to understand the '_why?_' behind each, as well as what components of Coca-Cola and molasses act on rust!



Philbert


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## svk (Jun 13, 2020)

These drive links are pretty tortured. Pitch this one? (This was a freebie, nothing invested in it).


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 13, 2020)

I would give it a couple more sharpenings. I think Phibert would too. On occasion I file or grind down the drive links a tad that have trouble making it through the bar's groove. Sometimes all they need is a little TLC. I pitch the chain when it's bent too far out of line. On occasion, that's a hopeless battle.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jun 13, 2020)

Those rivets tell me the drive links have spent most of their life on a shot sprocket..., probably a spur. I'd say they still have a bit more life left than the cutters and would last a couple more sharpenings if run on a decent sprocket.


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## svk (Jun 13, 2020)

All of my saws are running fresh sprockets. Will those drivers harm my sprockets? That’s my main concern. As I mentioned earlier I’ve got zero into this chain so could pitch it too.


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## Philbert (Jun 13, 2020)

svk said:


> These drive links are pretty tortured. Pitch this one?


The cutters have a lot of life left in them. With rounded over drive link tips, the chain might not oil as well, but not a big issue for general purpose cutting. I would run it.



PogoInTheWoods said:


> Those rivets tell me the drive links have spent most of their life on a shot sprocket..., probably a spur.


Good eye!



svk said:


> All of my saws are running fresh sprockets. Will those drivers harm my sprockets?


Sprockets are a consumable too. Ideally, you would run a pair of new chains with a new sprocket, and develop a wear pattern. I don't expect that you normally do that (?). Rim sprockets are pretty cheap. You can hold the chain up to the current sprocket(s) and see if the rivets even touch.

Philbert


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## Woodslasher (Aug 6, 2020)

Recently I acquired 8 gallons of saw chain and today I decided to sort it. Long story short, all the chains were tangled, some were rocked, and 5 chains were done for. I’m still playing the “match-the- number-of-drivelinks“ game, but I have an armload of 28 and 36 inch chains with about 10-12 chains of other sizes mixed in. The best part is the only 32x.050 chain was the right dl count for my 048’s bar! And the only .404 chain fit my 075 roller nose bar too!
Winner: Woodslasher
Lesson: Always accept free chain from loggers.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 6, 2020)

I ended up with a bunch of 1 time used processor chain (.404x.80) that was found in the dump.
Not sure the story, if they don't sharpen them or perhaps was for a processor/buncher/delimber they got rid of.
Either way, I wasn't going to pass up ~$125 of chain.

Had tons of used chainsaw chain at the shop. Cleaned up and sharpened some, figuring to sell them at maybe 1/2 price as new.

Pretty much anyone coming in just wanted new.

I sent off several flatrate boxes to people on here until I had one guy throw a fit that there were only 4 or 5 loops that were the right size for his saw and some weren't any good.
Yup... complained about ~$80 of chain he got for nearly free.

Last pail I found we chucked. The dumpster doesn't piss and moan.


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## svk (Aug 6, 2020)

Woodslasher said:


> Recently I acquired 8 gallons of saw chain and today I decided to sort it. Long story short, all the chains were tangled, some were rocked, and 5 chains were done for. I’m still playing the “match-the- number-of-drivelinks“ game, but I have an armload of 28 and 36 inch chains with about 10-12 chains of other sizes mixed in. The best part is the only 32x.050 chain was the right dl count for my 048’s bar! And the only .404 chain fit my 075 roller nose bar too!
> Winner: Woodslasher
> Lesson: Always accept free chain from loggers.
> View attachment 846824
> ...


Nice find, and awesome shop!


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## svk (Aug 6, 2020)

At this point I have reached hoarder status. I will still look for non safety chains in decent shape in any pitch/gauge/DL count but I will pass over the safety chains. Up here in softwood country, full chisel is king and if I had my druthers, every saw would wear a loop of FC.

I really need to organize all of my chains again. At one point this spring I had all of my chains listed on my phone by pitch, gauge, DL, cutter condition, and cutter type. Also if they were at the cabin or home.

I noticed that every time I get rid of unneeded chains IE wrong DL or gauge, the very next saw I acquire needed that chain.


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## svk (Aug 6, 2020)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> I ended up with a bunch of 1 time used processor chain (.404x.80) that was found in the dump.
> Not sure the story, if they don't sharpen them or perhaps was for a processor/buncher/delimber they got rid of.
> Either way, I wasn't going to pass up ~$125 of chain.
> 
> ...


I just wouldn't have it in me to throw them away. Pretty rude for someone to ***** about what they got when they knew it was grab bag. I remember seeing your ad and I did not take any because I had enough chains already.


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## Wood Doctor (Aug 6, 2020)

The only thing I wish that loggers would do when sharpening chain with a file is to make both sides with cutters of equal size. Most of the time the cutters on one side are bigger than the ones on the other side and so the cut pulls either left or right. That has to be evened out. Often the angle is not the same either. I've called that to their attention and they always respond, "Things are tough out there in the field."

The price they give to me for old chain is always good: free. So, I seldom complain. When a tree service company gives me a chain loop that's been sharpened so many times that the cutters are non-existent or ready to fly off, I usually substitute a logger's chain that's been salvaged and evened up but still has several sharpenings left. They never refuse that improvement.


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## 67L36Driver (Aug 6, 2020)

It was Valley Firewood that offered the large flat rate box of random chain for the postage. [emoji848]

The first box was so entertaining I got a second from him just to watch our letter carrier carry it up our front yard from the truck..[emoji108]

Picture a 110# female with a 40# box. [emoji23]

Plus the hours spent sorting it was like treating me to dinner and a movie.

Worth every penny.

I do have some full skip, chisel with safety bumper loops. Weird stuff really.


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## svk (Aug 7, 2020)

67L36Driver said:


> It was Valley Firewood that offered the large flat rate box of random chain for the postage. [emoji848]
> 
> The first box was so entertaining I got a second from him just to watch our letter carrier carry it up our front yard from the truck..[emoji108]
> 
> ...


Plus the fact that the box wasn’t that big so people had no idea it would be that heavy.


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## jerrycmorrow (Aug 8, 2020)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> I ended up with a bunch of 1 time used processor chain (.404x.80) that was found in the dump.
> Not sure the story, if they don't sharpen them or perhaps was for a processor/buncher/delimber they got rid of.
> Either way, I wasn't going to pass up ~$125 of chain.
> 
> ...


The fit pitcher was an anomaly. Don’t penalize everyone cause of one.


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## MacAttack (Aug 8, 2020)

I wanted to fix up this chain, but it's so effed up I don't think I have the patience. One chisel is broken off, looks like it was sharpened with the wrong size file (its 1/4) chain. I can get a brand new loop of Oregon 25 chain for $27 shipped, and this chain is a mess, the chisels on one side are about 1/16 inch longer than the other.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 8, 2020)

That chain is perfectly salvageable *if* you had the patience. Being 1/4 chain, there's not that much material to deal with. A grinder would obviously help, but those cutters could be brought back to life quite easily with a file just as well. The majority of the effort would be getting the rakers right..., with a progressive depth gauge tool. If done correctly, the broken cutter won't matter (make it go away), nor will different cutter lengths. I'd revive it if it were mine and probably get two or three more sharpenings out of it before the end of its useful life.


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## MacAttack (Aug 8, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> That chain is perfectly salvageable *if* you had the patience. Being 1/4 chain, there's not that much material to deal with. A grinder would obviously help, but those cutters could be brought back to life quite easily with a file just as well. The majority of the effort would be getting the rakers right..., with a progressive depth gauge tool. If done correctly, the broken cutter won't matter (make it go away), nor will different cutter lengths. I'd revive it if it were mine and probably get two or three more sharpenings out of it before the end of its useful life.



Thank you! I'll think it over, the patience is the biggest factor, I have 2 small kids and barely enough time to wipe my azz. 

So if I understand you correctly, the cutters can be different lengths if the depths are the same by filing the rakers?


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2020)

The ‘different length cutters’ is a separate discussion. But those cutters can be evened out easily with a grinder.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Aug 8, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> So if I understand you correctly, the cutters can be different lengths if the depths are the same by filing the rakers?


As Philbert said, that's a whole different discussion with lots of threads (and opinions) on the subject..., sorta like oil threads. But the short general answer is yes. A progressive type depth gauge tool is required for optimum results when adjusting for cutters of different lengths. Just do a search the subject and either find the patience to read a *ton * of stuff, or just take my word for it. LOL


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## MacAttack (Aug 8, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> As Philbert said, that's a whole different discussion with lots of threads (and opinions) on the subject..., sorta like oil threads. But the short general answer is yes. A progressive type depth gauge tool is required for optimum results when adjusting for cutters of different lengths. Just do a search the subject and either find the patience to read a *ton * of stuff, or just take my word for it. LOL


Haha sounds like a can of worms...do i need something more specialized than feeler guages to do it?


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Haha sounds like a can of worms...do i need something more specialized than feeler guages to do it?


Yes. You need ‘progressive’ depth gauge tools. Will not give you as smooth a cut as equal cutter IMO.






STIHL Progressive Depth Gauge Tool


Found these in response to another thread. Do not appear to be available in USA. Anyone familiar with or have experience with them? Might need a member-friend in EU to obtain? Tools for MS-cutting attachment maintenance: File gauge For manual reworking of the depth gauge made from hardened...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## MacAttack (Aug 9, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Yes. You need ‘progressive’ depth gauge tools. Will not give you as smooth a cut as equal cutter IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## MacAttack (Aug 9, 2020)

Freakin peer pressure... Got my old "McCulloch" (Granberg) file n joint set up, trying to find the shortest cutter and then I'll file them all down to that length with the stop screw on the jig.


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## Vtrombly (Aug 10, 2020)

Yeah you would need a depth gauge that sets each individual raker to the depth of each tooth not bridged between the two. I normally will not do that and I end up grinding by working on the smallest tooth and making them match. My OCD as a machinist wouldn't let me feel good about having all different length cutters. I usually use a caliper and check the cutter size and when I turn the grinder to do the opposing side I back off on the length a little bit. Most grinders I have seen when you switch sides it seems to take off a little more between the two. I go out about a quarter turn and try a cutter and fine tune it back in.


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## MacAttack (Aug 10, 2020)

Vtrombly said:


> Yeah you would need a depth gauge that sets each individual raker to the depth of each tooth not bridged between the two. I normally will not do that and I end up grinding by working on the smallest tooth and making them match. My OCD as a machinist wouldn't let me feel good about having all different length cutters. I usually use a caliper and check the cutter size and when I turn the grinder to do the opposing side I back off on the length a little bit. Most grinders I have seen when you switch sides it seems to take off a little more between the two. I go out about a quarter turn and try a cutter and fine tune it back in.


Thanks! I need to find a gauge it sounds like.

Upon inspection, the angle that some dope put on the longer cutters is so extreme, by the time the angle is fixed (Im set at 35 degrees) I think they will be as short as the other cutters, haha.


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## svk (Aug 10, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Upon inspection, the angle that some dope put on the longer cutters is so extreme, by the time the angle is fixed (Im set at 35 degrees) I think they will be as short as the other cutters, haha.


I hate that!! I had a chain this spring that came with a saw. I swear if must have had a 60 degree angle!! Full length cutter at cutting edge tapered almost to the back of the cutter on other side!!!


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## MacAttack (Aug 10, 2020)

svk said:


> I hate that!! I had a chain this spring that came with a saw. I swear if must have had a 60 degree angle!! Full length cutter at cutting edge tapered almost to the back of the cutter on other side!!!


it's called the "swept back" cutting angle, for aerodynamics. Lol


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## svk (Aug 10, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> it's called the "swept back" cutting angle, for aerodynamics. Lol


I wondered how a “dual angle” cutting edge would work if we cleaned up the first half and let the second half trail off. My chain looks kinda like that right now. It cuts OK. One more sharpening and it will clean up.


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## MacAttack (Aug 10, 2020)

svk said:


> I wondered how a “dual angle” cutting edge would work if we cleaned up the first half and let the second half trail off. My chain looks kinda like that right now. It cuts OK. One more sharpening and it will clean up.


A progressive cutter angle? Better patent that idea, could be the next big thing!


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## Philbert (Aug 10, 2020)

That’s sort of how they work, with all the compound angles built into the cutter profiles, using the ‘down angles’, etc. 

Philbert


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## svk (Aug 10, 2020)

Maybe get a tiny round file and make serrated edges. LOL!


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## MacAttack (Aug 10, 2020)

svk said:


> Maybe get a tiny round file and make serrated edges. LOL!


You could call it the "Piranha" tooth chain.


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## Philbert (Aug 10, 2020)

svk said:


> Maybe get a tiny round file and make serrated edges. LOL!


Also been discussed before:





__





Why Not Serrated Chains!?


I visited the State Fair last week and stopped to watch all of the product demonstrator guys. A number of them return every year. It just wouldn't be the same Fair without them. Some I almost know by name. So, I'm watching the Ginsu knife guy cut into the steel hammer head, then partway...



www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## MacAttack (Aug 21, 2020)

Well I'm still at it....the chain rocks so much in my jig (clamps are adjusted all the way in) Im really hitting the drive links and straps, hopefully not enough to cause a failure. But Im getting a sharp edge, and using 4mm (5/32) file which should be correct for a 1/4 chain??

I file a cutter or 2 when i have time haha, which is rare.

Do I need a progressive depth tool or can I just use an Oregon .025" depth gauge?


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## Philbert (Aug 21, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Well I'm still at it....the chain rocks so much in my jig (clamps are adjusted all the way in) . . .


Should not be hitting the tie straps; might be too low? Might get some better advice in the Granberg thread. Maybe your clamps can be shimmed, or slightly reformed, to grab the thinner chain? A stable chain is much easier to shape / sharpen consistently. This is where filing vices excel.





Granberg File-N-Joint, Revisited


*Note: The original images in this thread were lost. I will try to add some back which are as close as possible . I cannot add photos back to other people's posts* When I first started to sharpen my own chains I bought an Oregon, bar-mounted, filing guide (model 23736A). This was the...




www.arboristsite.com







MacAttack said:


> Do I need a progressive depth tool or can I just use an Oregon .025" depth gauge?


Depends on your chain and your preferences. Details in the above thread for setting depth gauges with the Granberg. You might set the first one using a straight edge and feeler gauges.





Depth Gauge Tools for Saw Chain


Proper setting of chain depth gauges (a.k.a. 'rakers', 'drags', etc.) is critical for good chain performance. People might disagree on the specific offset, but whatever they choose, it should be intentional. Thought this might be a good time to start a depth gauge tool ('depth gauge gauge'?)...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## MacAttack (Aug 21, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Should not be hitting the tie straps; might be too low? Might get some better advice in the Granberg thread. Maybe your clamps can be shimmed, or slightly reformed, to grab the thinner chain? A stable chain is much easier to shape / sharpen consistently. This is where filing vices excel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Will look into both links.


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## MacAttack (Sep 7, 2020)

Sorry for "cheating" and not scanning all 26 pages, but was there a consensus reached in this thread of the best product to remove rust from chains? Evaporust? Vinegar?
I haven't counted or gone through them yet, but yesterday I brought home probably 20-25 chains from my wife's late grandfather's barn. A few are pretty rusted but cutters are still long. A lot of old chains, I didn't have time to examine them but many looked larger than 3/8, could be some old .404 in there.
I promise pictures will be coming Philbert , haha


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## svk (Sep 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Sorry for "cheating" and not scanning all 26 pages, but was there a consensus reached in this thread of the best product to remove rust from chains? Evaporust? Vinegar?
> I haven't counted or gone through them yet, but yesterday I brought home probably 20-25 chains from my wife's late grandfather's barn. A few are pretty rusted but cutters are still long. A lot of old chains, I didn't have time to examine them but many looked larger than 3/8, could be some old .404 in there.
> I promise pictures will be coming Philbert , haha


Running them in clean wood. 

Sorry, I always laugh when @Philbert says that jokingly.


----------



## svk (Sep 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Sorry for "cheating" and not scanning all 26 pages, but was there a consensus reached in this thread of the best product to remove rust from chains? Evaporust? Vinegar?
> I haven't counted or gone through them yet, but yesterday I brought home probably 20-25 chains from my wife's late grandfather's barn. A few are pretty rusted but cutters are still long. A lot of old chains, I didn't have time to examine them but many looked larger than 3/8, could be some old .404 in there.
> I promise pictures will be coming Philbert , haha


If you just read the first handful of pages of the thread, Philbert covers just about every process available for this.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> . . . was there a consensus reached in this thread of the best product to remove rust from chains?



There are tradeoffs: cost, discoloration, speed, toxicity, etc. . .



svk said:


> If you just read the first handful of pages of the thread, Philbert covers just about every process available for this.


Most of the rust stuff is addressed early on. A couple of key things:
- Clean the chains first to remove any dirt, grease, and flaking rust, so that the rust removing chemicals or process can reach the remaining rust, and do their job. My cleaning approach is covered in this thread:





Philbert Meets the STIHL RS3


(NOTE: I have tried to replace lost photos in this thread - some may not be the same as the originals) Intro / Background OK, I can't port a saw like Mastermind and some others, but I can scrounge, save, and rehabilitate some chains that were not loved by their mothers, and restore them to...




www.arboristsite.com





- Remember that *rust eats metal*: removing rust _does not_ replace lost metal. Always inspect for damage, integrity, etc. after cleaning and de-rusting.

- Sometimes, the best option is to punch out and break away heavily damaged / rusted sections and reassemble into a shorter or combined loop.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 7, 2020)

svk said:


> Running them in clean wood.
> 
> Sorry, I always laugh when @Philbert says that jokingly.


That's my usual method!
They just have to actually move first, which some of these old chains don't do right now. I literally have a plastic bucket about 1/3 full ot chains.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 7, 2020)

svk said:


> Running them in clean wood.





MacAttack said:


> That's my usual method! They just have to actually move first, . . .


That can knock off some the outer gunk, such as if the chains are covered in sap, etc., and can be a preliminary cleaning method. But it will not clean off the baked on asphalt looking gunk, or the light rust, that resides in the recesses between links, on the insides of tie straps and cutters, around the rivets, etc. Those places need a chemical soak, some light brushing, maybe a dip in an ultrasonic cleaner (USC) to get really clean. The difference between wiping off some sweat with your dirty bandanna, and a nice soak in a hot tub or sauna.

I found that some 'frozen' links on older chains that I though were rusted, were really just bound up by dried grease that had hardened. See Post #112.



MacAttack said:


> I literally have a plastic bucket about 1/3 full ot chains.


That's a nice start, and why you need to figure out efficient methods.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 7, 2020)

I've got some work ahead of me...actually looks like mostly 3/8 and 3/8 LP, some Stihl chain, low kickback, but most of it has lots of cutter life left. Here's a few pictures of some of the chains.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> I've got some work ahead of me...


Good to experiment with using different methods: little to lose. You will quickly find out which chains are worth the effort.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 7, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Good to experiment with using different methods: little to lose. You will quickly find out which chains are worth the effort.
> 
> Philbert



For the really nasty chains, i think the first step will be the wire wheel on my bench grinder. Then maybe I'll get a gallon of that Super Clean for the rest of the corrosion and see how it comes out . If the chrome is gone from the cutters, does that mean it's junk?


----------



## Philbert (Sep 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> For the really nasty chains, i think the first step will be the wire wheel on my bench grinder. Then maybe I'll get a gallon of that Super Clean for the rest of the corrosion and see how it comes out . If the chrome is gone from the cutters, does that mean it's junk?


Can't recommend the wire wheel - too aggressive, and may scratch or damage the good parts of the chain. Also, it may rip the chain out of your hands! A more 'gentle' way is to drive a screw or nail into a scrap board (or work bench) so that you can stretch the loop out a bit, and hit it with a stiff brush to knock the loose stuff off. I like the fine wire, stainless steel, 'scratch brushes' (third from the right in photo below) sold by welding supply store for TIG welding. Under $1 each here, and much better than the junk ones (2 at far left) that sell for more at the home centers.



Super Clean is a water based degreaser (containing 'lye' -sodium hydroxide); it will not remove rust, but will remove the grease, allowing the rust removing chemicals to reach the remaining corrosion. Light surface rust is usually not a problem. Deep, pitted rust damages the underlying metal.

See what works for you, and please post your results here for others.

The chrome protects the cutter from abrasion. Once its gone, the cutter can still cut, but will be subject to faster wear. Apparently, some race chain makers actually remove the chrome intentionally (?). Again, experiment with these chains to see what you learn. Then make choices about which ones are worth saving. Some of those look like cool, older chains. Some of those cutters will also need a lot of attention, once the rust is cleaned up.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 8, 2020)

Philbert said:


> the junk ones (2 at far right)


Wouldn't those be the 2 on the left?


----------



## Philbert (Sep 8, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Wouldn't those be the 2 on the left?


Thanks. Fixed it.

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 8, 2020)

Was just too _'un-Philbert-like'_ to let it slide. LOL


----------



## heimannm (Sep 8, 2020)

I bought this at Menards.




Here is the chain from the Mall 11 soaking, I can't remember if this was 24 or 48 hours but I was pretty busy that week with storm clean up so I left it in for 3 days (72 hours). It was rust free, but the steel was somewhat darkened by the solution. It actually made the chain look pretty good with the chrome cutters and the darker links.




Mark


----------



## Philbert (Sep 8, 2020)

heimannm said:


> I bought this at Menards.


I think that _Metal Rescue_ is similar to _Evaporust_, _WD-40 Specialist® Rust Remover Soak,_ and maybe a few other products that I started to see a few years ago. Maybe some protections on the Evaporust formula ended? Maybe there are still some Coke/Pepsi/ RC Cola differences? 

Evaporust seemed to work best on lighter rust, once the heavier stuff was removed, especially places that are harder to reach, or that you don't want to scratch. Turns metal black if left in solution 'too long' (I guess that you have to check progress regularly), which was supposed to be one of its advantages over the less expensive solutions (e.g. citric acid, oxalic acid, acetic acid/vinegar).

One key thing that the Evaporust guy told me was to keep the solution covered: if too much moisture evaporates it will not work as well. I used plastic food wrap over my trays. He also told me to keep using it until it stopped working - don't just rely on the solution turning dark. Good things to know, considering the price of the product.

Phiblert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 9, 2020)

I'm looking forward to trying some different methods to clean up those old chains. Some of it will be crude techniques. while I completely agree that a wire wheel is too aggressive for the cutters, there ain't no way I'm using those metal toothbrushes (as I call them) to descale the straps and drive links, I just don't have the time. That's only the really rusty chains that I'm sure are well pitted anyway. Im going to compromise and use a softer wire wheel on my angle grinder to hit the straps and drive links, and then something more precise for the cutters.
I have some CLR i might try to then remove corrosion, or whatever I can find thats saleable in NY (probably raccoon p*ss or something non-toxic).
Im getting to things at a very slow pace right now, but I will share my exploits.
Im mostly done fixing up my 1/4 chain on the SP40, i think im OK with how it's turning out. If it ends up good enough to trim the birch trees in my front yard Ill be happy.


----------



## scottr (Sep 9, 2020)

Hey MacAttack , check your private messages .


----------



## Wood Doctor (Sep 9, 2020)

Philbert said:


> ... One key thing that the Evaporust guy told me was to keep the solution covered: if too much moisture evaporates it will not work as well. I used plastic food wrap over my trays. He also told me to keep using it until it stopped working - don't just rely on the solution turning dark. Good things to know, considering the price of the product.
> Philbert


That's what I do. Occasionally I'll mix in some cleaning vinegar and give it a full 24-hr soak. Vinegar is cheaper than Evapo-Rust. Heloise recommends it. Heh heh heh...

Afterwards, it does takes some laundry detergent to clean up the mess (and my hands). When the rust is really bad, a few links still need some penetrating oil or diesel fuel.


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 25, 2020)

I think I'm happy enough with the messed-up 1/4 chain on my SP40, cutters are fixed up reasonably and I filed the depth gauges to .025"
Also working on one of my rusty chains, cleaned it up with a small metal brush, now CLR to see how much I can clean it up.
Most important thing...that "aroma seal" lid!


----------



## Philbert (Sep 25, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Also working on one of my rusty chains, cleaned it up with a small metal brush, now CLR to see how much I can clean it up.


Interested to hear how will it works.

*Remember: _only use De-Caff coffee cans for low kick-back chains_!

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 25, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Interested to hear how will it works.
> 
> *Remember: _only use De-Caff coffee cans for low kick-back chains_!
> 
> Philbert



I'm using French Roast for an aggressive cut!

Gonna let it soak a few days and see how it looks.


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 27, 2020)

Jury is out on CLR...it definitely attacked the rust, but in ways I've yet to be seen. Seems to have removed rust but also turned the chain into a rigid chunk of metal which took some effort to get some links moving again. It's turned a blackish color with some white powder, i scraped much of it off with my brush but it's still ugly and rigid. Next step is trying a suggestion from Scottr, a good ATF soak, Ill give that a few days and see what I have.

Of course, once all this is done, Ill have to see if I have a saw that it will fit! I've got small McCullochs in 3/8 LP with 12, 14, and 16 inch bars.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 27, 2020)

Was the loop seized up before the CLR soak?

Thanks 

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 27, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Was the loop seized up before the CLR soak?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Philbert


It was mostly movable, very stiff, except for the worst looking links. After CLR it stiffened a lot, Im guessing it swelled the rust in the links when it was attacking it.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 27, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> It was mostly movable, very stiff, except for the worst looking links. After CLR it stiffened a lot, Im guessing it swelled the rust in the links when it was attacking it.


I never had that happen. I had seized links that remained seized, despite rust removal chemicals (mostly acids), electrolysis, and the famous ATF/diesel soak, but never had any get worse. Some seized links were just dried up grease, not rust: freed up with some 3-In-1 Oil and some gentle tapping, then movement. But your photos seem to show the genuine iron oxide.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 27, 2020)

Philbert said:


> I never had that happen. I had seized links that remained seized, despite rust removal chemicals (mostly acids), electrolysis, and the famous ATF/diesel soak, but never had any get worse. Some seized links were just dried up grease, not rust: freed up with some 3-In-1 Oil and some gentle tapping, then movement. But your photos seem to show the genuine iron oxide.
> 
> Philbert


This particular chain was sitting on the outside window sill of a barn for who knows how many years, haha. I'm anxious to see what happens with the ATF soak...


----------



## heimannm (Sep 27, 2020)

One of the You Tube experts (Project Farm?) made a video testing several different rust removal agents. As I recall, Coca Cola, white vinegar, and CLR didn't do a lot. I don't remember if I posted already but I bought some product at Menards called "Metal Rescue" that worked well on a rusty chain took off a Mall two man saw.









f

Mark


----------



## Philbert (Sep 27, 2020)

I do use CLR, by the way, to remove rust stains on fabric! Works great. Also on clogged shower heads. 



heimannm said:


> I bought some product at Menards called "Metal Rescue" that worked well on a rusty chain took off a Mall two man saw.
> Mark


Mark, do you recall if that chain was seized between the links? Penetration versus surface rust is a key issue here. 

Thanks 

Philbert


----------



## 67L36Driver (Sep 27, 2020)

What pitch & gauge is that Mark?

I’ve accumulated a pile of 7/16” & 9/16”.


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## heimannm (Sep 27, 2020)

The chain had many joints that were seized, many loosened up after soaking ( I left it in for 72 hours since I was busy on cleanup in Cedar Rapids at the time) and the rust was gone, the unprotected steel turned almost black, and the chrome plating was untouched.

I use CLR on sinks, toilets, etc. that have mineral or rust accumulations but would not consider it a suitable solution for rusty steel products.

Mark


----------



## heimannm (Sep 27, 2020)

3/4" pitch, I never bothered to check the gauge since I don't have anything else to use anyway. 

Mark


----------



## scottr (Sep 28, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Jury is out on CLR...it definitely attacked the rust, but in ways I've yet to be seen. Seems to have removed rust but also turned the chain into a rigid chunk of metal which took some effort to get some links moving again. It's turned a blackish color with some white powder, i scraped much of it off with my brush but it's still ugly and rigid. Next step is trying a suggestion from Scottr, a good ATF soak, Ill give that a few days and see what I have.
> 
> Of course, once all this is done, Ill have to see if I have a saw that it will fit! I've got small McCullochs in 3/8 LP with 12, 14, and 16 inch bars.



Hey MacAttack , the blackish color with white powder is what Ospho does to rusty metal to neutralize the rust so you can pain it . Ospho contains phosphoric acid that changes iron oxide to iron phosphate . 
It will be interesting to see if the ATF soak will allow you to scrub away the black crust .


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 28, 2020)

Yeah the CLR doesn't seem like a good thing to use for this, it looks like I can get Metal Rescue or Evaporust on Amazon, might try one of those.
This particular chain will probably need some more elbow grease to get cleaned up and freed up. It seemed to be loosening up in the ATF, which doesn't surprise me as ATF has great anti-rust properties.


----------



## 67L36Driver (Sep 28, 2020)

heimannm said:


> 3/4" pitch, I never bothered to check the gauge since I don't have anything else to use anyway.
> 
> Mark



Possibly harvester chain territory. [emoji2960]


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 28, 2020)

Your ATF solution will likely have better results breaking loose rusty parts and chains if mixed at a 50/50 ratio with acetone, (though not necessarily as a rust remover per se). It's been a redneck penetrating oil alternative for years -- and is proven to work better than most commercially available penetrating products time and time again. 

I recently ran across this video that explains why.

​


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 28, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Your ATF solution will likely have better results breaking loose rusty parts and chains if mixed at a 50/50 ratio with acetone, (though not necessarily as a rust remover per se). It's been a redneck penetrating oil alternative for years -- and is proven to work better than most commercially available penetrating products time and time again.
> 
> I recently ran across this video that explains why.
> 
> ​




I didn't even think of adding acetone but I have definitely used the 50/50 acetone/atf mixture in the past. Ill think about whether I want to do that or just see if it frees up on it's own, I feel like I'm using up a lot of fluids to fix this old chain, haha.


----------



## buzz sawyer (Sep 28, 2020)

Decided to salvage old chains another way.


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## Short timer (Sep 28, 2020)

Did that automatic sharpener ever get a final approval?


----------



## Philbert (Sep 28, 2020)

The first 9 or so pages of this thread focused heavily on rust. I did try the Acetone / ATF mixture, but ti did not work any wonders for me. Even after an extended soak.



And remember, removing rust does not replace lost metal! (*this chain was de-rusted trying a variety of different methods)




Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 28, 2020)

I included the disclaimer that it was not intended to be used as a rust remover, but rather suggested it as a penetrant / lubricant for helping to free up stubborn situations.


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 28, 2020)

My current plan for old rusty chain #1 is to get it freed up, sharpen the cutters, put it on a saw and run it clean.


----------



## Philbert (Sep 28, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> My current plan for old rusty chain #1 is to get it freed up, sharpen the cutters, put it on a saw and run it clean.


More ambitious than most; their plan is '_toss it and buy a new one!'_

Personally, I think the inquiry is worth a bit of investigation: the whole point of this thread! See what can be saved and how, and motivate others to try! Thanks for posting your efforts.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Sep 28, 2020)

Philbert said:


> More ambitious than most; their plan is '_toss it and buy a new one!'_
> 
> Personally, I think the inquiry is worth a bit of investigation: the whole point of this thread! See what can be saved and how, and motivate others to try! Thanks for posting your efforts.
> 
> Philbert



I'm a compulsive salvager of things tossed away, given a new loop of chain is easily $20 at any rate, definitely worth the effort!

More to come...


----------



## Woodslasher (Sep 29, 2020)

Here’s a handy wear chart I think you guys will enjoy.


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## PogoInTheWoods (Sep 30, 2020)

I don't see a "being run while severely rusted" cause and remedy..


----------



## Philbert (Sep 30, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> I don't see a "being run while severely rusted" cause and remedy..


*!!!*



Woodslasher said:


> Here’s a handy wear chart I think you guys will enjoy.



Thanks for posting that @Woodslasher. I tried to sharpen it up a little:



*Oregon* also has good information on diagnosing wear of chains, bars, and sprockets in their '_Maintenance and Safety Manua_l':
(click this link)


Maintenance & safety manual



And *STIHL* in their '_Bar and Chain Manual_' (attached).


----------



## Woodslasher (Sep 30, 2020)

I stole the chart from the front of an Intertec Saw Manual book I have. The have the ipl’ s and service notes for all the saws made at the time of publishing. McCulloch, Husky, Allis Chalmers, Homelite, Stihl, etc. They are the best all around saw care books I’ve seen.


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## MacAttack (Oct 7, 2020)

Hey chain experts, I know this is the chain salvage thread....but can anyone tell me what the heck kind of chain this is on a 10-10 that my Dad gave me? What is going on with those depth gauges?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 7, 2020)

Oregon Vanguard safety chain. Actually pretty decent chain despite that style of raker..., which needs adjusted just like any other raker, btw. Just requires a little more work -- which that entire chain needs a bunch of.

Looks like a nice score bar-wise.


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 7, 2020)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Oregon Vanguard safety chain. Actually pretty decent chain despite that style of raker..., which needs adjusted just like any other raker, btw. Just requires a little more work -- which that entire chain needs a bunch of.
> 
> Looks like a nice score bar-wise.


Very cool, thanks!

I have to measure but I think it's a 24" roller-tip bar, nice condition too.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 7, 2020)

That's just a replaceable sprocket tip bar, not a roller-nose.


----------



## Philbert (Oct 7, 2020)

That bar has a sprocket nose, with bearings, but ‘_roller nose_’ usually refers to noses like this:



We should start a ‘_Guide Bar Challenge_’ thread! Except that I cannot weld and machine rail chips, and stuff, like @srcarr52 can. And I would want to buy a BarShop, and one of those bar straightening machines, and a nice bar grinder, and . . .

Philbert


----------



## Woodslasher (Oct 7, 2020)

Philbert said:


> That bar has a sprocket nose, with bearings, but ‘roller nose’ usually refers to noses like this:
> View attachment 859899
> 
> 
> ...


I'm up for that! Gimme a couple of months and I'll get some hardnosed bars with the hardfacing worn off and a bad sprocket nose or two and see if I can't rejuvenate them. I've already freed up a few rusted bar tips, two rollernose and a sprocket, but I could try to find some more to document for posterity.


----------



## Philbert (Oct 7, 2020)

*Some Guide Bar Salvaging References on A.S.*



Woodslasher said:


> I'm up for that!


 Here's some related threads on bar salvaging / maintenance:






Nose Sprocket Rescue - Illustrated!


In another thread, a member asked about saving a guide bar after hitting his chaps - the nose sprocket seized up: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/help-can-i-save-the-bar.256137/#post-4785989 At a recent GTG we did a chaps test/demonstration that also seized up a couple of nose...




www.arboristsite.com









__





Bar dressing


No, not some kind of salad dressing. How do you dress your bars? Freehand or something along the Oregon jig style?




www.arboristsite.com










Bar shop.....


Anybody know anything about these?




www.arboristsite.com










guide bar welding


I have a chip in a hard nose right at the tip. Maybe a 1/16 to 1/8 in length. Is it possible to repair a chip in the guide rail of a bar by welding it and filing it down?




www.arboristsite.com










Bar Tender Please


Hey, check this out for straightening bars




www.arboristsite.com










Guide bar rail closing tool ?


There is a video of a guy using an Oregon bar rail closing tool on youtube. After going to the Oregon website, I can't seem to locate it on their site. Is Oregon still making the bar rail closer? It looks like a "T" shaped tool that you strike the top of the handle and the bevel grooved pocket...




www.arboristsite.com







Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 7, 2020)

Thanks for clarifying the terminology, I just used those terms interchangably. Now I know!


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 7, 2020)

Guess what else I got in my bar finds with those rusty chains?

Some rusty sprocket tip bars for old Homelites.


----------



## Philbert (Oct 7, 2020)

MacAttack said:


> Guess what else I got in my bar finds with those rusty chains? Some rusty sprocket tip bars for old Homelites.


Rusty or stuck / seized? 

I received one of the replaceable sprocket nose ('RSN') tips that was 'frozen': the sprocket would not move, and I assumed that it was rusted. Turned out to be hardened grease in the bearings. Some attention with a light oil (3-In-1), while working it a little bit, freed it up. Solvent lubes like WD-40, Kroil, etc., could also work.

Philbert


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 7, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Rusty or stuck / seized?
> 
> I received one of the replaceable sprocket nose ('RSN') tips that was 'frozen': the sprocket would not move, and I assumed that it was rusted. Turned out to be hardened grease in the bearings. Some attention with a light oil (3-In-1), while working it a little bit, freed it up. Solvent lubes like WD-40, Kroil, etc., could also work.
> 
> Philbert


I need to inspect them closer, I am thinking some of both. All I know is that I will not be soaking them in CLR.

That rusty chain i was working on that I soaked in CLR...I am literally freeing up one link at a time with a pair of vicegrips and a large pliers.


----------



## scottr (Oct 7, 2020)

Hey MacAttack , is that the same chain that you soaked in CLR and said that you were going to give a ATF soak ?


----------



## scottr (Oct 7, 2020)

Is the black crust softened so the brush removes it ?


----------



## siouxindian (Oct 7, 2020)

scottr said:


> Is the black crust softened so the brush removes it ?


black crust matters.


----------



## MacAttack (Oct 8, 2020)

Yeah same chain, the ATF helped but the CLR was not a good idea, I think it made it worse to free up the links.


----------



## svk (Oct 8, 2020)

Philbert said:


> *Some Guide Bar Salvaging References on A.S*
> 
> 
> 
> Philbert



Pretty cool Vid.....certainly cost prohibitive unless you have an obsolete mount/long bar but still neat to watch.


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Oct 8, 2020)

siouxindian said:


> black crust matters.


Tasteless and classless.


----------



## siouxindian (Oct 13, 2020)

siouxindian said:


> black crust matters.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 19, 2020)

That article seems to confuse power tools and hand tools quite a bit. 

Philbert


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## heimannm (Dec 14, 2020)

Woodslasher sent me another saw for the museum, this time an electric Mall. The chain was in need of attention. Notice the removeable pin, someone had either tried to peen it or thought they needed to drive it through the chain to get it installed. 




I gave this one a 3 or 4 day soak in the same gallon of Metal Rescue that I used on the chain from the two man saw. Following that I rinsed it off in the parts washer and gave it some additional attention with a wire brush. I think it came out very nicely.







Mark


----------



## Woodslasher (Dec 14, 2020)

I’m working on cleaning up a 50 foot roll of .404 x 0.058 I was given. I stink of vinegar and I’ve still got 40 feet to go, but I’ll be set for life with that stuff!


----------



## Woodslasher (Apr 15, 2021)

I spent last night shortening two 28 inch chains to fit a 24 inch bar, since both had large damaged sections. One had hit a rock and bent 3 cutters, the other was a .050 chain run in a .063 bar part of the time, the rest of the time it was run on the splined section of the clutch drum with the drivers sandwiched between the clutch cover and bar (not by me). The first was pretty straightforward, I punched out 8 drivers, re-joined it and was done. My OCD bit me in the @$$ on the second one, though. I thought it was a 92dl like the first, but it was a 93. So, after cutting 2 extra drivers off and re-positioning them to get an "even" chain, I noticed two blank straps in a row, meaning I'd have to stagger the chain anyways and negating the need for cutting off some of those drivers. On the bright side, I learned if you are trying to cut off a "tail" driver, grinding off the rivet heads and then hand-punching out the rivets makes life way easier.


----------



## Wood Doctor (Apr 15, 2021)

I have also run into the situation where a punch/press will not knock out a rivet. For years I used to just grind them flat with a chain sharpener's grinding wheel as you show in the last Pic. Glad I learned how to do that back then because on occasion it is the only removal solution.

In retrospect, I have usually found that saving a chain as you described will sometimes take twice as long to accomplish as making a new chain, and your nerves tend to be shot when through. It's a head shaker, but I do admire your tenacity.


----------



## Woodslasher (Apr 15, 2021)

Wood Doctor said:


> I have also run into the situation where a punch/press will not knock out a rivet. For years I used to just grind them flat with a chain sharpener's grinding wheel as you show in the last Pic. Glad I learned how to do that back then because on occasion it is the only removal solution.
> 
> In retrospect, I have usually found that saving a chain as you described will sometimes take twice as long to accomplish as making a new chain, and your nerves tend to be shot when through. It's a head shaker, but I do admire your tenacity.


Yeah, it took a long time and I could have easily made up a new chain in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the headache, but it was a loop that had never even been sharpened, so I figured it was worth the effort.


----------



## Huskybill (Apr 15, 2021)

Geez, I use chains down to the last sharpening then save them for cutting pallets/skids. I usually heat the house one fire a night on pallets till it gets colder. That can be towards November/ December..


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## Wood Doctor (Apr 15, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> Geez, I use chains down to the last sharpening then save them for cutting pallets/skids. I usually heat the house one fire a night on pallets till it gets colder. That can be towards November/ December..


Save the chunks (cookies, stubs, etc.) somewhere. They won't stack, but they really burn nicely. It amazes me how many of these get thrown away somewhere at the collection site. Pallets and skids have nails in them. These little guys seldom do and are waiting to make heat.


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## Huskybill (Apr 16, 2021)

Pallets, skids, crates are perfect for free heat or fire starter. Perfect for wornout chains and even old bars.


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## Philbert (Apr 16, 2021)

OK gentlemen, this thread is on salvaging chains, not scrounging firewood, please. 

Thanks. 


Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Apr 16, 2021)

But, Philbert, saw chains are often ruined and then need to be salvaged if being used to scrounge what Huskybill listed in post #583. Knowing what wrecked the chain might be important to the guy trying to salvage it. Just MHO.


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## Brufab (Dec 23, 2021)

Philbert said:


> This chain came wrapped around the handle of a garage sale saw. For perspective, this saw _actually had moss growing_ from the spot where the muffler used to be.
> 
> Part of the chain is recognizable. The rest is rusted into a solid, spiral hunk that cannot be separated or moved. All I know is that it is 3/8 low profile pitch chain. I can’t even count the links.
> 
> ...


Thanks philbert!!! Looks like my chain I'm struggling with. The guys directed me here. I didn't have enough vinegar last night so I used diet doctor pepper. Not much results based info to share as the experiment didn't show any progress


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## Philbert (Dec 23, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I didn't have enough vinegar last night so I used diet doctor pepper.


People have used CocaCola for years, since it contains phosphoric acid. But the sugar adds to the mess. 

Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 23, 2021)

Philbert said:


> People have used CocaCola for years, since it contains phosphoric acid. But the sugar adds to the mess.
> 
> Philbert


No messing around now lol.


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## heimannm (Dec 23, 2021)

I started out with the NOS McCulloch "F" chain that was a bit rusty.




I bought this Metal Rescue at our local Menards.




I was busy so it was soaking for a couple of days. Following that I gave it a bit of a scrub in the parts washer with solvent and a wire brush.







As Philbert has pointed out, removing rust does not replace the oxidized metal. 




This was the second time I used that particular jug of Blaster, it says to keep using it until it is no longer effective, it does get pretty dark after a couple of sessions but seems to keep working so far.

Mark


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 23, 2021)

Blaster ain't cheap, but yes, it works. Seems like cleaning vinegar is still a Best Buy soaker. Heloise loves it too, but it will remove both the shine and the rust.


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## Jhenderson (Dec 23, 2021)

You fellas do realize that mounting the rusty chain and actually cutting wood with it will accomplish the same end , don’t you?


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 23, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> You fellas do realize that mounting the rusty chain and actually cutting wood with it will accomplish the same end , don’t you?


But, sometimes the links are so frozen with rust that the chain cannot be mounted. I run into that all the time.


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## Philbert (Dec 23, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> You fellas do realize that mounting the rusty chain and actually cutting wood with it will accomplish the same end , don’t you?


Does not clean the rust between the plates, around the bearing parts of the rivets, and places that the wood does not touch. 

Philbert


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## Jhenderson (Dec 23, 2021)

I keep a spare bar and chain on the floor of the forwarder in case of emergency. It sometimes is over a year between uses. Often the chain is a stiff ball of rust. It’s lumpy but in about 5 minutes it’s mounted and working. I’ve never had one I couldn’t get to run, but that’s me. Considering a new Oregon 20 inch chisel chain is about $16 at my local shop , the idea of spending time and $ on one that’s worn, and so rusty as to be locked up tight baffles me.


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## Brufab (Dec 23, 2021)

. 404 .058 chain is becoming harder to find these days


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 23, 2021)

Philbert said:


> Does not clean the rust between the plates, around the bearing parts of the rivets, and places that the wood does not touch.


Doesn't do a sprocket much good, either.



Jhenderson said:


> the idea of spending time and $ on one that’s worn, and so rusty as to be locked up tight baffles me.


You're clearly in the wrong thread..., on several levels.


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## Philbert (Dec 23, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> the idea of spending time and $ on one that’s worn, and so rusty as to be locked up tight baffles me.


If you go back to the start of this thread, you will see that it was mostly driven by “salvaging“ chains that could easily be repaired/returned to service, that people were discarding. Along the way, it became a “challenge“, of sorts, for fun and interest, to take on more difficult chains. I personally learned a lot about chains, and have tried to share that knowledge with any others interested.

Some people derive satisfaction from keeping useful items out of the scrap pile. Some people have more time than money. Some chains, from collectible saws, are no longer available. 

The rust question came up early, and is explored in the first few pages. I was surprised, as I was mostly thinking about addressing physical damage and sharpening errors. 

Some guys like to refurbish old saws, bikes, guns, furniture, tools, etc. Some guys like to throw old stuff away and buy new. This thread is clearly directed towards the first group, but hopefully is also helpful for folks trying to troubleshoot a chain problem, and maybe avoiding those problems in the first place. 

Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 23, 2021)

Thanks for the thread! I got one soaking in vinegar now I will know more tomorrow afternoon when it's been a full 24 hours. I'm curious to see what happens. If my results are half as good as philberts I will be pretty happy. I'm hoping to _salvage_ the chain since it doesnt look like its been sharpened once yet and .404 .058 64DL isn't something a shop carries on the shelf.


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## Philbert (Dec 23, 2021)

I tried lots of different chemicals and suggested recipes. They are detailed in the early pages of this thread.

Avoid ‘inorganic acids’ (hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric, etc.), which are nasty to work with, and will ‘eat’ the underlying metal too. 

Most ‘organic acids’ (acetic, citric, oxalic, etc.) will work, although, they may color the underlying metal if left too long. Phosphoric acid is good on rust, but not recommended for chrome, which is a problem for saw chains.

You can order most of these acids in dry, powder form, fairly cheaply, from places like Amazon. Some of these are even “food grade“, so they are fairly safe to work with, with reasonable care.

Products like ‘EvapoRust’, ‘WD 40 Specialist Rust Remover’, and the brand that Mark used, work well, but are somewhat more expensive.

I had a bad, first experience with electrolysis on a saw chain, but ought to give that another try, since it worked so well for me with other items.

One of my favorite tools for removing rust on chains is a fine, stainless steel, ‘scratch brush’, about the size of a toothbrush, available from many welding supply stores for a buck or so. It is really helpful for cleaning around the rivet heads, and other tight places, along with water, or your cleaning solution.

Degrease the chain thoroughly first, so that your acid or cleaning solution actually reaches the rust. Don’t forget to rinse and dry well, and to re-lubricate the chain after. Of course, rust prevention is the best method!

Philbert


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## Jhenderson (Dec 23, 2021)

Philbert said:


> If you go back to the start of this thread, you will see that it was mostly driven by “salvaging“ chains that could easily be repaired/returned to service, that people were discarding. Along the way, it became a “challenge“, of sorts, for fun and interest, to take on more difficult chains. I personally learned a lot about chains, and have tried to share that knowledge with any others interested.
> 
> Some people derive satisfaction from keeping useful items out of the scrap pile. Some people have more time than money. Some chains, from collectible saws, are no longer available.
> 
> ...


I realize the impetus of the thread. I followed early on. The chains I referred to were the last posted. Either of which I would mount and run as is and an hr later you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference between one that had been acid bathed and one that hadn’t. Just a case of practicality vs hobby.


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## Maintenance supervisor (Dec 23, 2021)

Yup , I'll derust an Oregon 72 chain with an old bar ,if its been idle a year or 2 ,but a 40 year old or older chain should be carefully inspected in a meticulous manner before it comes apart under speed from a saw and becomes a projectile. 
Careful cleaning and derusting by hand is part of that safety.


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## Brufab (Dec 24, 2021)

Thanks phibert for the challenge and your time and knowledge. I just went and inspected the chain I'm trying to salvage and it's looking good. I just took a brush and knocked off a bunch of rust, thinking by the 24 hour mark of soaking it will be ready to be touched up with wire wheel on the dremel then soaked in oil to finish the task. Thanks again!


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## Brufab (Dec 24, 2021)

One thing I noticed is that the cutters got clean first and the rusty links were next. The cutters are super shiny now and all the gunk on them brushed off easily with a tooth brush. Also alot of bubbles so that chemical reaction is taking place. This should make a good science project for kid.


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## Philbert (Dec 24, 2021)

Maintenance supervisor said:


> a 40 year old or older chain should be carefully inspected in a meticulous manner before it comes apart under speed from a saw and becomes a projectile.


Agreed. 

Some guys just want authentic chains for restored display saws. 

Philbert


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## Jhenderson (Dec 24, 2021)

Brufab said:


> One thing I noticed is that the cutters got clean first and the rusty links were next. The cutters are super shiny now and all the gunk on them brushed off easily with a tooth brush. Also alot of bubbles so that chemical reaction is taking place. This should make a good science project for kid.


That’s because the tooth is hard chrome . The chrome is the reason a chain holds an edge.


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## blades (Dec 24, 2021)

did an old scratcher chain on an old saw a year ago or so. just a clean up as it was going to a museum in Sweden.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 24, 2021)

In seventh grade I recall a teacher in a shop class showing us the power of Coca-Cola when it came to metal. He dropped several 10-penny nails in a glass Mason jar full of Coke for a couple of weeks. The nails disappeared, completely dissolved. You have to wonder about consuming lots of cola soft drinks, but many do it anyway, and I suppose it could be used to clean rust from chain loops. I've never done it and I gave up drinking cola beverages 30 years ago.


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## Philbert (Dec 24, 2021)

Wood Doctor said:


> In seventh grade I recall a teacher in a shop class showing us the power of Coca-Cola when it came to metal. He dropped several 10-penny nails in a glass Mason jar full of Coke for a couple of weeks. The nails disappeared, completely dissolved. You have to wonder about consuming lots of cola soft drinks, but many do it anyway, and I suppose it could be used to clean rust from chain loops. I've never done it and I gave up drinking cola beverages 30 years ago.


Water will kill you too, if you say submerged under it for a couple of weeks. 

Just ‘sayin . . . 

Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 24, 2021)

Chain is 99% rust free. There is still a few links that are seized up. Now it soaking in pb blaster for 24 hours. Hoping they free up because the chain looks like new now.


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## Wood Doctor (Dec 24, 2021)

Philbert said:


> Water will kill you too, if you say submerged under it for a couple of weeks.
> Just ‘sayin . . .
> 
> Philbert


But water won't dissolve 10-penny nails in a couple of weeks. Just ‘sayin . . .


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## bwalker (Dec 24, 2021)

I dropped a new chain in the snow years ago. Had given up on finding it when low and behold I stumbled on it the following fall. Of course it was completely a rust ball.
I put it in a ultra sonic cleaner at work, then soaked it in oil for a few days. This broke it free for the most part. I then ran the thing until it was used up. Looked like he'll, but the chrome wasn't damaged and it worked fine.
In retrospect I am not sure this was the smartest idea given the damage a chain failure can do.


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## pdqdl (Dec 24, 2021)

Philbert said:


> *Chain One (continued)*
> ...
> 
> _*NEXT TIME?*_ - Still some other rust remediation methods to try!
> ...



Try an oxalic acid dip someday. It actually reacts with iron oxide to restore the steel. Leaves a washable yellow residue, and is safe to bare hands. I use it to remove rust stains from concrete.


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## Philbert (Dec 24, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> Try an oxalic acid dip someday.


It’s there in the early threads. Used by a lot of people for removing rust from chrome, collectibles, steel beer cans, etc. 

Turned my chains green if left for an extended period. Good choice for camo chains!

Oxalyic acid is also a key ingredient in ‘Bar Keeper’s Friend’ cleaner / cleanser. 

Philbert


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## heimannm (Dec 25, 2021)

Edwin - a lot of folks have an anecdotal story about Coke, but try it yourself and you will see it is a myth. We had the same discussion 40 + years ago when I was teaching industrial arts and tried Coke to get a 4 cylinder Wisconsin engine un-stuck. ATF worked where Coke didn't.

Mark


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## link (Dec 26, 2021)

Coke is bad, period.
I use paraffin oil to loosen up old chains, it is exceptional to dissolve old solidified oil. But it dont dissolve rust. 
I guess some kind of acid does the trick...


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## bwalker (Dec 26, 2021)

Something to consider. In the oil refining industry we use light cycle oil to unfoul heat exchangers that have coaked or sludged up. Light cycle oil is a precursor to diesel fuel. Maybe using diesel is worth a try?


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## Brufab (Dec 26, 2021)

The vinegar did wonders. I think after the vinegar some of the guys said to soak in kerosene or diesel for a couple days in some comments on the thread. The vinegar removed 99% of the rust from the chain I soaked for 24 hours.


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## Philbert (Dec 26, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Maybe using diesel is worth a try?


The acids ‘dissolve’ the rust (iron oxide). The ‘rust reformer’ chemicals do something else chemically (I don’t really understand that process). I think of diesel oil as being more of a lubricant, although, as a fuel it does contain some solvents. 

But I hate the smell, especially in my basement, where I often work on chains. 

Something surprising that I ran into were seized chains (and bar nose sprockets) that were not rusted, but bound up by dried up grease. I used 3-In-One oil, and some mechanical persuasion, to loosed these up. A diesel soak would probably work there too. 

I did an extended test with a diesel/ATF ‘cure’ in an earlier post in this thread. After a number of months the rusted, seized chain remained seized. 

Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 26, 2021)

What is your mechanical persuasion technique? I have about 3 links that are still seized. The chain has been soaking in pb blaster almost 48 hours.


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## bwalker (Dec 26, 2021)

Philbert said:


> The acids ‘dissolve’ the rust (iron oxide). The ‘rust reformer’ chemicals do something else chemically (I don’t really understand that process). I think of diesel oil as being more of a lubricant, although, as a fuel it does contain some solvents.
> 
> But I hate the smell, especially in my basement, where I often work on chains.
> 
> ...


As long as you can break the chain free the rust is only cosmetic and most of it will come off with use.


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## link (Dec 26, 2021)

Soak it in whisky it really helps, brain or chain whats the difference.


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## Franny K (Dec 26, 2021)

I know it is off topic. Phosphoric acid like in cola products , the phosphorus replace calcium in the bones. The clear soda or pop or carbonated beverages have ascorbic acid.


Wood Doctor said:


> . You have to wonder about consuming lots of cola soft drinks, but many do it anyway


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## pdqdl (Dec 26, 2021)

Phosphoric acid is present in many rust-removal products. It reacts with iron oxide (rust) to form Iron phosphate, a black compound that actually protects the steel beneath from further corrosion. 

While ascorbic acid is added as a flavorant in many beverages, so is the phosphoric acid. The main acidic component of most sodas is the carbonic acid, formed under pressure in the can with CO² and water.


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## Captain Bruce (Dec 27, 2021)

t.k said:


> Coke is bad, period.
> I use paraffin oil to loosen up old chains, it is exceptional to dissolve old solidified oil. But it dont dissolve rust.
> I guess some kind of acid does the trick...


???? PB Blaster, and explain "old chains"?


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## Captain Bruce (Dec 27, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> Phosphoric acid is present in many rust-removal products. It reacts with iron oxide (rust) to form Iron phosphate, a black compound that actually protects the steel beneath from further corrosion.
> 
> While ascorbic acid is added as a flavorant in many beverages, so is the phosphoric acid. The main acidic component of most sodas is the carbonic acid, formed under pressure in the can with CO² and water.


WOW! I came here to learn about chainsaw problem solving, and get a completely meaningless rant from "Bob Nye".


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## pdqdl (Dec 27, 2021)

If you spent less time being snide and a little more time trying to learn something, you would have realized that the presence only of minute quantities of phosphoric acid and vitamin C in Coke might explain why it doesn't work worth a crap on removing the rust from chainsaw chains. It might, however, add a rust inhibitive layer to the chain, once you are done descaling it.

I'm sorry I didn't dumb it down for you so that you could understand. I'll try harder next time. In the meanwhile, try to understand that you aren't the only person that will be reading this thread. Also, I suggest you read the bottom line of my signature below. _Let me know if you can't see it._
(signature reading must be enabled in your user preferences)


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## pdqdl (Dec 27, 2021)

Captain Bruce said:


> WOW! I came here to learn about chainsaw problem solving, and get a completely meaningless rant from "Bob Nye".



BTW: It ain't "Bob".

*
*


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## Brufab (Dec 27, 2021)

Irregardless of the politics of this thread. Philberts experiment/challenge was alot of fun and I was amazed at how it revived a 50+ year old rusty chain. I will be using vinegar alot more around the house to clean rust off of tools.


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## Philbert (Dec 27, 2021)

Brufab said:


> What is your mechanical persuasion technique?



For chain, clamp the drive link only in the jaws of a vise, and tap the adjacent link with a cushioned hammer, or using a block of wood to protect it from damage. 



bwalker said:


> As long as you can break the chain free the rust is only cosmetic and most of it will come off with use.



Deep rust, or rust affecting the rivets, can lead to chain breakage.

Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 27, 2021)

That's what I was thinking but was hoping for more info or clarification. Thanks for sharing your knowledge philbert! Much appreciated!!!


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## bwalker (Dec 27, 2021)

Philbert said:


> For chain, clamp the drive link only in the jaws of a vise, and tap the adjacent link with a cushioned hammer, or using a block of wood to protect it from damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, which is why I made the comment early that if it's severely rusted I would pitch it. Not worth the risk.


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## HarleyT (Dec 27, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> BTW: It ain't "Bob".
> 
> *View attachment 951454
> *


Bill Nye
The Babe Slayer


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## pdqdl (Dec 27, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Irregardless of the politics of this thread. Philberts experiment/challenge was alot of fun and I was amazed at how it revived a 50+ year old rusty chain. I will be using vinegar alot more around the house to clean rust off of tools.



I am equally amazed. I never figured vinegar would have any effect.


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## Brufab (Dec 27, 2021)

No doubt would be a good science fair project for anyones kid.


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## Philbert (Dec 27, 2021)

pdqdl said:


> I am equally amazed. I never figured vinegar would have any effect.


Vinegar: a.k.a. ‘acetic acid’. 

Philbert


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## pdqdl (Dec 27, 2021)

Sorry man. 

As promised, I'm trying to a avoid creating any confusion with Science Guy or issue any dissertations.


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## Philbert (Dec 27, 2021)

Philbert said:


> For chain, clamp the drive link only in the jaws of a vise, and tap the adjacent link with a cushioned hammer, or using a block of wood to protect it from damage.


This photo is from Post #112 in this thread. The first 10 pages, or so, focused on rust because that is what people were sending me. 

Use light taps (or cushion with a wooden block), then work the link back-and-forth, adding light, penetrating oil. 




Philbert


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## Brufab (Dec 27, 2021)

Thanks philbert. I read alot of pages in your thread. I appreciate you reposting this one for us guys salvaging vintage and obsolete chain.


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## BrettS (Dec 28, 2021)

Captain Bruce said:


> WOW! I came here to learn about chainsaw problem solving, and get a completely meaningless rant from "Bob Nye".


WOW! I came here to read about chains and get a rant from ole "captain bruce" who thinks his shi t don't stink...


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 28, 2021)

Wow.


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## DCE (Dec 28, 2021)

Philbert said:


> It’s there in the early threads. Used by a lot of people for removing rust from chrome, collectibles, steel beer cans, etc.
> 
> Turned my chains green if left for an extended period. Good choice for camo chains!
> 
> ...


Problem with oxalic acid is it can react with the rust ( iron Oxide) and the steel bar.. Also don't handle it as it can go through the skin and lead to low iron levels in your blood. It can also leave behind a residue that is difficult to remove. This often happens when its used to remove rust from mineral specimens, therefore; collectors avoid using it.


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## Brufab (Jan 1, 2022)

CHAIN SALVAGED After breaking the last few links loose I wire wheeled it with dremel then cleaned in a degreaser. Chain turned out great for just 24 hours of vinegar and some elbow grease and pb blaster. Chain will be getting sharpened Monday at my local shop. Chain is .404 .058 64DL. challeng accepted! 
Great thread philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 1, 2022)

Now we just have to get you sharpening your own chains!

Philbert


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## PogoInTheWoods (Jan 1, 2022)

Buckin' Billy Ray territory...


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## Maintenance supervisor (Jan 1, 2022)

Brufab said:


> CHAIN SALVAGED After breaking the last few links loose I wire wheeled it with dremel then cleaned in a degreaser. Chain turned out great for just 24 hours of vinegar and some elbow grease and pb blaster. Chain will be getting sharpened Monday at my local shop. Chain is .404 .058 64DL. challeng accepted!
> Great thread philbert


Thats old chipper style chain, make sure to keep your file flat when sharpening.


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## Brufab (Jan 1, 2022)

So that is square ground then?


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## Maintenance supervisor (Jan 1, 2022)

Brufab said:


> So that is square ground then?


No, it means the side plate is completely round. Most modern chains a chisel=square or round filed, semi chisel = rounded top corner for durability, micro chisel , and ripping chain for a smooth finish when milling lumber.
Chipper chain is more like a ripping chain but is filed at 30° instead of 10° .


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## Brufab (Jan 1, 2022)

The drive link is marked 51 and the cutter is marked 30 my other. 404 .058 chain the cutter is marked 25. Thanks for the info. Those charts are going to help me immensely!


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## Maintenance supervisor (Jan 1, 2022)

Brufab said:


> The drive link is marked 51 and the cutter is marked 30 my other. 404 .058 chain the cutter is marked 25. Thanks for the info. Those charts are going to help me immensely!


Old Oregon chain is marked 50=.050, 51=.058,52=.063 on the drive links. 
The markings on the cutter are the style of cutter.
All modern .404 is .063,.080, and .122


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## Brufab (Jan 1, 2022)

Thanks, my 2 different oregon .404 .058 chains one is as you said chipper (30) and the 72 DL one is (25) I'm thinking super chisle? The s70 chain is stamped 25 but says 3/8 pitch


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## Philbert (Jun 12, 2022)

These are automotive body files I collected to use for reconditioning plastic wedges. Not my favorite (see post #30 in link below), but they work better than metal files or wood rasps. 

Top one is basically new, with Philbert factory handles attached. Bottom 2 were garage / estate sale finds that were a bit rusty / gunked up (sorry, no ‘before’ photos). 






Cleaned gross gunk from teeth with dental pick, and rust with an overnight soak in a weak citrus acid bath, along with periodic, fine wire brushing. 

Success! All rust removed. 

Dark spots on the middle file are where the rust wore through a light colored coating. The bottom file is just a darker color; the spots in the photo are just moisture from the cleaning process. *Photos look better when blown up*.

Did not want to use a strong acid that might eat the cutting edges off. The cutting edges on these files are not as ‘sharp’ as some other types, so I think they will be OK. 






Wedge Renewal


This has been mentioned in a few threads on wedges - here are some 'Before' and 'After' photos (hope you can tell which are which!). Plastic bucking / felling wedges are 'consumables', and in a sense sacrificial, but no need to waste them if they can be brought back to serviceable life. This...




www.arboristsite.com





Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Jun 12, 2022)

Yesterday I salvaged a Stihl chain for an Echo CS-590. It's 3/8" pitch, 050 gauge and 70 DLs. Somehow it had stretched a little and could no longer be tightened. The owner brought in two 590s. One refused to tighten it, and he said, "Can you knock out a link?" I thought for a a second and said, "Yes, but let's try the other saw's bar." 

As expected, the chain tightened right up on the other saw. The bar on the saw that refused to tighten was some strange clone, and I noticed the holes on the bar for the tightener were a bit too far forward.. Second, that saw was using a very worn sprocket. So, I salvaged a slightly stretched chain without removing a link from it.


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