# Meteor Cylinder Quality



## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm seeing more and more mention of the Meteor cylinder kits. I received a couple samples early on, and to be honest with you, I cringed everytime I see them mentioned. One was for a MS440 and the other for a MS460. Both were inferior, but one in particular was absolutely horrible. The port shapes are *very *irregular, as well as the beveling. I ported the better of these two, and it still didn't make power. I used the same numbers that make an OEM cylinder run very well. Unless drastic changes have been made, then I say buyer beware.



























OEM is on the right.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

Just for the record, I have no agenda or hidden motive. I call a product as I see it. I don't care the color or the brand. If the aftermarket makes a great product, then I'm all for it. Meteor pistons come to mind. They are fantastic. I reported my findings on these cylinders and am not aware of any improvements. If there have been, then I would be the first to say so. If you have evidence of these particular cylinder being *greatly *improved, then post up pics to verify it.


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## watsonr (Dec 4, 2012)

So what is your question Brad? Are you asking for members to say that they have bad cylinders or asking them to make a comparison between there OEM one and there new Meteor cylinder?

Or to not buy Meteor cylinders? Did you read the thread Randy did comparing the Meteor cylinder to OEM on the 372 build he had a few weeks ago?


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 4, 2012)

Wow those ports are in bad shape. I have seen better workmanship on $35 chinese P&C kits. 

Are the cylinders actually stamped as 'Made in Italy' or are they using no name chinese cylinders?


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## jus2fat (Dec 4, 2012)

I won't buy a Meteor cylinder...but their pistons are pretty decent. But I won't use their piston clips..OEM..!!

I will only use OEM on Stihl saws - never a problem - rather a used OEM Mahle cylinder than a new Meteor..!!

I'm like you - why can't they make as good a cylinder as they do their pistons..?? - I just don't get it..??

J2F


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

Yes, yes, yes, and no. I have not personally seen a 372 kit, so have no comment on them. That's why I asked specifically for info on the 440 and 460 kits.

Many of the guys here have not had the opportunity to see what others of us have. I feel something of a responsibility to share what I've seen, with those who have not. I've been very frank with one of the suppliers of these kits. Nothing would make me happier than to see these kits be what they could be. There is huge potential here! I would go out of my way to help make that happen. I've done what I could, but am still so frustrated by what we see here. What can be done? I don't know. But, I'd hate to see someone spend good money and receive something that looks and performs like these.


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## barneyrb (Dec 4, 2012)

Brad, just for clarification how old are your pictures?


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

The ports on the ones I've held in my hands (several now) have been on par, in fact nearly identical to every other aftermarket cylinder I've seen. They all need a bit of clean up, and thats a fact. That said, the plating has been on par with OEM, with exception to the lack of plating around the top, but alot of OEM are the same way. After some clean up in one of the 460 kits I had, just clean up, not porting, it was an great runner. Was it OEM strong? I dunno, as i didnt have a stock one to compare, but felt good and ran great. I gave that kit away, and the new owner ported it and made a great runner. He sold it and its still running today in fact, and in the log woods no less, earning money daily. 

I personally would not do a bolt and go with em. They need a bit of love for sure. But for a cheap alternative to the high price of OEM, they definetly have potential. And from what I've been told, the quality has seen improvement since the ones I've had. Plating all the way up, and nicer looking ports. I've not seen one yet though, but I know of a 372 being built with one as we speak. I'm anxious to see the outcome.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 4, 2012)

I'll use their pistons but have been to leary to try their cylinders. 

I read somewhere the cylinders are not in house. Heard they are China, Taiwan cast, or somewhere else and supposedly shipped to be plated. Just what I read somewhere if my memory is right.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I'll use their pistons but have been to leary to try their cylinders.
> 
> I read somewhere the cylinders are not in house. Heard they are China, Taiwan cast, or somewhere else and supposedly shipped to be plated. Just what I read somewhere if my memory is right.



That's what I was told when I inquired. Cast in tiawan, plated in Italy.


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## o8f150 (Dec 4, 2012)

from what i see that is not good at all


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 4, 2012)

Be nice to see Gilardoni Italian made cylinders used with meteor pistons. vvv:msp_biggrin::msp_w00t:


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Be nice to see Gilardoni Italian made cylinders used with meteor pistons. vvv:msp_biggrin::msp_w00t:



U bet it would. Gilardoni are the nicest cylinders I've ever laid a paw on. Amazing how smooth the casting is on em.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I'll use their pistons but have been to leary to try their cylinders.
> 
> I read somewhere the cylinders are not in house. Heard they are China, Taiwan cast, or somewhere else and supposedly shipped to be plated. Just what I read somewhere if my memory is right.



That sounds about right.

I've also recently had a few issues with pre-assembled MS390 engine blocks. The crank seals were not installed correctly, and the cylinder base and clamshell were not properly sealed. Apparently the cylinder base was covered with assembly lube and wasn't cleaned before the gasket sealant was applied. This obviously caused the block to have massive air leaks.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> That sounds about right.
> 
> I've also recently had a few assembly issues with pre-assembled MS390 engine blocks. The crank seals were not installed correctly, and the cylinder base and clamshell were not properly sealed. Apparently the cylinder base was covered with assembly lube and wasn't cleaned before the gasket sealant was applied. This obviously caused the block to have massive air leaks.



Are those meteor? I was thinking they were NWP.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 4, 2012)

So is there any aftermarket cylinder you guys would recommend for a 440/460 build? NWP? Just curious, I have one to do this weekend, I was about to order a Meteor kit! Thanks for your post.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Are those meteor? I was thinking they were NWP.



Yes NWP. However I think the castings were made by the same manufacture. My point is you still can't trust any of the aftermarket top ends to be simple plug and play parts. IMHO.


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## dl5205 (Dec 4, 2012)

Several years ago a friend of mine put a "BB" kit on a pretty nice 440. It ran so poorly he thought he messed something up on the install.


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## albert (Dec 4, 2012)

The pics shown by the op were early units, are the lastest improved or not??


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Yes NWP. However I think the castings were made by the same manufacture. My point is you still can't trust any of the aftermarket top ends to be simple plug and play parts. IMHO.



I agree. Plug and play, no. A little work, and they are definetly a viable option.


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 4, 2012)

I agree, aftermarket cylinders should always be inspected and modified it necessary. 

My question is though, if you port an aftermarket cylinder with the same numbers you would use on OEM... where does the difference in power come in?


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## wigglesworth (Dec 4, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> So is there any aftermarket cylinder you guys would recommend for a 440/460 build? NWP? Just curious, I have one to do this weekend, I was about to order a Meteor kit! Thanks for your post.



Any aftermarket kit you buy is gonna take some extra work to make a runner out of it. Period. An oem, less work. I'm thinking seriously about giving a 372 meteor kit a try. If I ever get caught up that is. 



dl5205 said:


> Several years ago a friend of mine put a "BB" kit on a pretty nice 440. It ran so poorly he thought me messed something up on the install.



The BB kits have never impressed me, save for a few 372BB's.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 4, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> That sounds about right.
> 
> I've also recently had a few issues with pre-assembled MS390 engine blocks. The crank seals were not installed correctly, and the cylinder base and clamshell were not properly sealed. Apparently the cylinder base was covered with assembly lube and wasn't cleaned before the gasket sealant was applied. This obviously caused the block to have massive air leaks.



Yeah I just got my first 390 shortblock in, it was advertised as unassembled so I ordered a set of OEM clips and rings. To my surprise the kit came assembled. I have been debating on whether or not to tear it down and swap out the clips and rings and re-seal it or to let it go as is. Also noticed this kit has a 1 year warranty, any idea if tearing it down would void that?


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## sawfun9 (Dec 4, 2012)

I dunno about the 440's and 460's but the Baileys 090 piston and cylinders are great. They are easier to pull over but read the same on the compression guage and will pull a 96" bar buried. Maybe after a few months of daily service the Baileys one would start flaking but most 090's don't get used that much, or often. So not all of the Chinese aftermarket stuff is bad.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> The ports on the ones I've held in my hands (several now) have been on par, in fact nearly identical to every other aftermarket cylinder I've seen. They all need a bit of clean up, and thats a fact. That said, the plating has been on par with OEM, with exception to the lack of plating around the top, but alot of OEM are the same way. After some clean up in one of the 460 kits I had, just clean up, not porting, it was an great runner. Was it OEM strong? I dunno, as i didnt have a stock one to compare, but felt good and ran great. I gave that kit away, and the new owner ported it and made a great runner. He sold it and its still running today in fact, and in the log woods no less, earning money daily.
> 
> I personally would not do a bolt and go with em. They need a bit of love for sure. But for a cheap alternative to the high price of OEM, they definetly have potential. And from what I've been told, the quality has seen improvement since the ones I've had. Plating all the way up, and nicer looking ports. I've not seen one yet though, but I know of a 372 being built with one as we speak. I'm anxious to see the outcome.


Jeremy, that was a fantastic post. The problem is, these kits will most often be bought by the person that needs a simple bolt on. The cylinder I ported was the 460. I ported it, and it didn't make near the power OEM does. Whether it was the transfer passages or something else, I don't know. It was going on a raffle saw, and it wasn't what I wanted to put out there for you guys.



bucknfeller said:


> Yeah I just got my first 390 shortblock in, it was advertised as unassembled so I ordered a set of OEM clips and rings. To my surprise the kit came assembled. I have been debating on whether or not to tear it down and swap out the clips and rings and re-seal it or to let it go as is. Also noticed this kit has a 1 year warranty, any idea if tearing it down would void that?


You definately want to pull the base cap and reseal it up. From what I hear, you'll need to put sealant on the OD of the seals as well in order to stop all air leaks. If it were me, I'd only use the P&C from the kit, and use the original crank, bottom pan, and OEM seals.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

sawfun9 said:


> I dunno about the 440's and 460's but the Baileys 090 piston and cylinders are great. They are easier to pull over but read the same on the compression guage and will pull a 96" bar buried. Maybe after a few months of daily service the Baileys one would start flaking but most 090's don't get used that much, or often. So not all of the Chinese aftermarket stuff is bad.



Some of the kits are much better than the others. The best I've seen are the 066BB kits. That's likely because more of them are sold, and they've now been through several revisions, getting better each time. Even a few of these still go out bad though. This 460 Meteor kit was the worst I've seen, by far. It amazes me that Meteor would want their name on these cylinders. Their pistons are just that good.


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## kevinm9558 (Dec 4, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> So is there any aftermarket cylinder you guys would recommend for a 440/460 build? NWP? Just curious, I have one to do this weekend, I was about to order a Meteor kit! Thanks for your post.


For what it's worth-
I'm in the same boat you are boss, although I don't have a time limit on mine. That's how I found this website though, looking for info on the meteor kits. So far, the good doesn't outweigh the bad. Just like they said earlier, what I've found (and for fairness sake, I'm just restating what I've learned through researching on the web) the Meteor cylinders are just Taiwanese parts shipped over to Italy for a higher quality plating job. To answer your question, NWP from what I understand is just the Taiwanese part not shipped to Italy, but also plated in Taiwan (or thereabouts). READ-poor quality...
So now what?
I've found a few used OE cylinders (Mahle) on ebay for the same price as the new Meteor head, and also I posted an ad on the forum here looking for some parts, and got a couple responses from others with a used OE head that they had lying around. 
So for what it's worth, I'm gonna hold out for a used Mahle; I just don't have the funds to experiment with the Meteor head and hope it works out all right.:coins:


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## kevinm9558 (Dec 4, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Some of the kits are much better than the others. The best I've seen are the 066BB kits. That's likely because more of them are sold, and they've now been through several revisions, getting better each time. Even a few of these still go out bad though. This 460 Meteor kit was the worst I've seen, by far. It amazes me that Meteor would want their name on these cylinders. Their pistons are just that good.



That surprises me, that a manufacturer could (or would) put out higher quality parts for different models. Seems like they would manufacture to the same standard for everything (at least for the same part). But who am I to judge? I've never seen one! I am happy to hear it though, as I am in the process of rebuilding my 066 right now. 
So for clarification, are you saying the BB kit for the 066 is a great quality part, or just that its the best aftermarket head you've seen for the 066 but still needs work to be of the same OE quality?


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## nmurph (Dec 4, 2012)

The recent 066BB kits are nice as well as some 372BB kits I have used.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 4, 2012)

The 440 I am doing this weekend has the threads stripped out of the spark plug hole, other than that it's a good cylinder. The owner of the saw has heard some of his buddies negative comments toward heli-coils so he wanted me to find a quality aftermarket p/c and go that route, now this thread has me thinking I should try to save the OEM jug if possible. I have heard of some other bushing type thread repair that you drill and tap for then screw it in and use a mandrel to set the knurling, does anyone here have experience with these?


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2012)

I sell these kits......but they have to be massaged a bit first. 

The jug you posted was butt ugly huh Brad?


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## Jacob J. (Dec 4, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> The 440 I am doing this weekend has the threads stripped out of the spark plug hole, other than that it's a good cylinder. The owner of the saw has heard some of his buddies negative comments toward heli-coils so he wanted me to find a quality aftermarket p/c and go that route, now this thread has me thinking I should try to save the OEM jug if possible. I have heard of some other bushing type thread repair that you drill and tap for then screw it in and use a mandrel to set the knurling, does anyone here have experience with these?



A properly done heli-coil is a good repair. I've seen spark plug helicoils that I've installed last for years in landing saws- a logging landing being the most abusive environment that a saw will operate in. The negative connotation associated with heli-coils mostly comes from people without the patience or fine touch to install them correctly. If you want to try another used 440 OEM jug, I have a whole pile of them. You're welcome to one for the cost of shipping it.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 4, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> A properly done heli-coil is a good repair. I've seen spark plug helicoils that I've installed last for years in landing saws- a logging landing being the most abusive environment that a saw will operate in. The negative connotation associated with heli-coils mostly comes from people without the patience or fine touch to install them correctly. If you want to try another used 440 OEM jug, I have a whole pile of them. You're welcome to one for the cost of shipping it.




I agree about the helicoils, if it were my own saw that's what it would get. I have done a couple saws for friends with no issues. That was the first thing I suggested when the customer told me his problem and he immediatly said NO HELICOIL! I appreciate the offer on a used jug, I may have to take you up on that if I can't make him happy with a thread repair.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2012)

Time Serts work even better than heli-coils IMHO. 

Don't get me wrong these aftermarket top ends are viable, but like most have said, they more often than not, need a little attention before they're 100%. In fact I put an aftermarket on a 441 this passed summer, and honestly it wasn't all that bad looking.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 4, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Time Serts work even better than heli-coils IMHO.
> 
> Don't get me wrong these aftermarket top ends are viable, but like most have said, they more often than not, need a little attention before they're 100%. In fact I put an aftermarket on a 441 this passed summer, and honestly it wasn't all that bad looking.



What brand cyl. did you use on that 441? The only problem I have with dressing up a cylinder is that most of my work comes from people who are trying to avoid the high cost of OEM parts and ridiculous labor rates at their dealers. In most cases the saws wouldn't be worth fixing if the dealer did the work. So if I spend too much time polishing a turd the bill is going to have to reflect that, can't work for free ya know!


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I sell these kits......but* they have to be massaged a bit first*.



Way to go on "blueprinting" them before selling them. It's a shame that has to be done, but I suppose it's still cheaper than new OEM.


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## Mastermind (Dec 4, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Way to go on "blueprinting" them before selling them. It's a shame that has to be done, but I suppose it's still cheaper than new OEM.



I've not gotten a 460 kit yet but the 372 kit is pretty good right outta the box.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> What brand cyl. did you use on that 441? The only problem I have with dressing up a cylinder is that most of my work comes from people who are trying to avoid the high cost of OEM parts and ridiculous labor rates at their dealers. In most cases the saws wouldn't be worth fixing if the dealer did the work. So if I spend too much time polishing a turd the bill is going to have to reflect that, can't work for free ya know!



The top end was from Northwood-Saw. All I did was replace the circlips with oem. The cylinder wasn't perfect to say the least, but it was fully functional and the coating looked quite nice actually. The problem again is the fact you need to know what you're doing, and what to look for. Say for instance, what would happen if one of the ports didn't have a nice chamfer? you'd snag a ring. I've seen some of these kits with no chamfer, and some with huge. Some cylinders had completely flat ports, not good.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 5, 2012)

Touching up chamfer is one thing, but if I got one as ugly as those in the pics I would be highly disappointed. For the time it would take to put those in to useable condition you'd be better off to buy a new OEM.


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## Mad Professor (Dec 5, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Any aftermarket kit you buy is gonna take some extra work to make a runner out of it. Period. An oem, less work. I'm thinking seriously about giving a 372 meteor kit a try. If I ever get caught up that is.
> 
> 
> 
> The BB kits have never impressed me, save for a few 372BB's.



Wiggles,

ever played with a Tecomec?

Have looke at a 038M kit, the piston comparison is a OEM shop worn 038S vs tecomec 038M

My 038M kits have been as good as OEM Mahle, for me.

Lakeside/Andy mentioned they were a Stihl OEM supplier

Too bad they only make kits for a few saws. : (

You can get separate pistons now too. : )

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/116179.htm


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 5, 2012)

Looking at the OEM v repro jugs and Wow that exhaust port mold core was bad.
trying to imagine what the transfers looked like.
Anyone ever tried pouring a foam or
doing something like a rotary mold , (would buncha hand held rolling around for that one)
yeah, all that just to get a look at the shapes of the ports.

hmm, any foundry guys here, how would you go about duping/patterning the castings?
I know about (basic) lost wax/ core idea 
but I think you get that we want to pull a model of the actual part.

oorrrrr what about any forensic artists lurking ??
I'ma shut up for a minuet now.


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## beingeasy769 (Dec 5, 2012)

Why not just order pre-cast jugs and do your own porting to specs? Surely you can order the cylinder without the Ports drilled,right? That would definitely make you one with your machine. Sounds cheaper, too. Maybe it's not possible, I don't know. Drill press, oil, dremel, compounView attachment 265687
d, calculator.


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

I've been quiet until now... And I gave considerable thought before I hit the reply button.



blsnelling said:


> Just for the record, I have no agenda or hidden motive. I call a product as I see it. I don't care the color or the brand. If the aftermarket makes a great product, then I'm all for it. Meteor pistons come to mind. They are fantastic. I reported my findings on these cylinders and am not aware of any improvements. If there have been, then I would be the first to say so. If you have evidence of these particular cylinder being *greatly *improved, then post up pics to verify it.





watsonr said:


> So what is your question Brad? Are you asking for members to say that they have bad cylinders or asking them to make a comparison between there OEM one and there new Meteor cylinder?
> 
> Or to not buy Meteor cylinders? Did you read the thread Randy did comparing the Meteor cylinder to OEM on the 372 build he had a few weeks ago?



Your asking for bad cylinder comments and asking for comparisons, your telling people NOT to buy Meteor cylinders and you didn't read Randy's thread, got it.... but you have no hidden agenda... Since I'm the one with the Meteor kits for sale in my signature, I supplied Randy with his kit, I'll respond and call it as I see it.... just the same.



blsnelling said:


> Yes, yes, yes, and no. I have not personally seen a 372 kit, so have no comment on them. That's why I asked specifically for info on the 440 and 460 kits.
> 
> Many of the guys here have not had the opportunity to see what others of us have. I feel something of a responsibility to share what I've seen, with those who have not. I've been very frank with one of the suppliers of these kits. Nothing would make me happier than to see these kits be what they could be. There is huge potential here! I would go out of my way to help make that happen. I've done what I could, but am still so frustrated by what we see here. What can be done? I don't know. But, I'd hate to see someone spend good money and receive something that looks and performs like these.



I'm frustrated by what I see here also. Your telling people to NOT buy Meteor kits, I'm a supplier of said kits, but you didn't bother to speak with me personally, research the new and improved version of said kit and feel responsible to report ... So let me be Frank.....Brad

The kit you showed was two years old and I can say that the kits have been improved significantly since then. Randy installed his kit right out of the box and said... 


Mastermind said:


> I've not gotten a 460 kit yet but the 372 kit is pretty good right outta the box.





Mastermind said:


> I didn't get any decent pictures of the bore, but it's really nice with no "ring of death" at the top. It makes 150psi after being run in only a half of a tank. Here's a video of the saw after installing the kit with no mods at all.....we didn't even knock the flash out of the exhaust port. I was impressed with the way it pulled.



That says to me ..it's plug and play. Granted it may have a little flashing, but for the most part, ready to run and almost anybody here could put this kit on without any technical problems. OEM could use a little cleaning just the same or not.

That same saw is now over 12 tanks and no issues.... I've re-read your comment about Meteor cylinders and you basically said that because the cylinders you received years ago were crap, there all crap, including the new versions... at least that's the impression I got from your post. .... and then your asking for member confirmation of that assessment.

I've seen plenty of OEM cylinders, bad ones too! I like to massage them a little and every builder here would be nailed to the wall if he said any different about OEM, every thing you touch is massaged or you wouldn't be in business...PERIOD! With that being said I would expect every builder to say the same about every aftermarket kit ... you want to message them a little to put your seal of approval on them and your name. 



Mastermind said:


> The only really rough part is the exhaust outlet. The transfers are pretty dang good......they match the case better than factory.
> 
> My thoughts are this........I could feel good about selling these kits after setting the squish and finessing the ports. Not really a woods port but let's call it a "Blueprinted Meteor Kit".
> 
> I won't sign off on any other kits mainly because of the piston and rings. These kits come with a great piston and Caber rings.....Meteor has even re-designed their cir-clips to a Stihl like style.





blsnelling said:


> That jug looks real nice now that you've massaged it



Once again, a builder that won't run a stock saw and he shouldn't! He doesn't sell stock cylinders, he sells modified cylinders. A builder running a stock saw says they are good quality and don't need improvement and if that were the case, nobody would be modifying saws!

Maybe you need to re-look at the new Meteor kits *before* deciding to tell people not to buy one:msp_sneaky: Not really fair to mention a product from two years ago without making a comparison to today's product, you didn't do any research before making a negative report..... and asked for back-up after you said it.

Its the same if I said your first port job was crap and because of that not to buy one... and I know you do not do a crappy job of porting a saw.

Brad, contact me for an MS460 kit. The kit will come factory direct to your door and I'll never touch it before it arrives. In return, you do a full report including all the specs of timing and compression, timed cuts and all. Meteor kit against stock....If you don't like it, I'll pay for it, I'll even pay the shipping. If its anything like the 372 kit, you get a winner, a great product of good quality at a good price.

Sincerely,
Frank


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## imagineero (Dec 5, 2012)

when I rebuilt my first saw I was shocked that you could just slap any ol' piston in to any cylinder and that was considered good. Anyone who's rebuilt an engine knows that you buy the pistons first, then give them to the engine guy who machines each bore to suit. Then they mark the pistons so they go in the right holes. I know the tollerances are bigger on air cooled stuff, but still.... I'm sure the specs from batch to batch from the same manufacturer are wide enough, let alone the specs between different manufacturers. 

Have any of you guys measured a whole bunch of P&C's to see what the difference was, and which ones matched best? 

Shaun


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## MCW (Dec 5, 2012)

That first kit you've shown Brad would have to be the worst finished kit I have ever seen and I've seen (and still have in the shed) some absolute shockers. As mentioned that would have to be old stock but is certainly a good advertisement why every reseller should inspect kits first before sale.



Andyshine77 said:


> However I think the castings were made by the same manufacture.



Exactly right Andy. NWP, Meteor, Mako kits from Jakmax etc etc. It's amazing that the same faults with port timings, bevelling issues, slanted exhaust ports, high squish, bad rings, ring style, even the cylinder colour are EXACTLY the same regardless of who sells them. It cracks me up when somebody says my kits are better than your kits when 9 times out of 10 they are coming out of exactly the same factory. I mean if they are made by Meteor for example then why is it that any improvements to the manufacturing process/finish are seen across basically the entire range of aftermarket kits, regardless of whose box they are in?
Brad will have fond memories of one of the MS660 BB kits I sent him a few years back to look at. It was a waste of time. The later generation kits are basically OEM standard, in fact probably better then the later model genuine MS660 OEM P&C's I've seen.
There are probably 20 aftermarket P&C suppliers claiming to have this brand or that brand when in reality there are only a handful of actual factories producing these kits.

The nicest kits I've seen are some of the 372XP BB 52mm kits and the 660 BB kits from the same manufacturer. Mine come in a plain box from a 3rd party Chinese supplier so I can't even tell anybody which factory makes them. What pis*es me off though is that I spent literally $1000's on testing these kits only to find that my information was being redistributed to other resellers around the world (and in Australia!) who didn't have to spend a cent to work out which were the better ones and which kits not to touch...


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

MCW said:


> That first kit you've shown Brad would have to be the worst finished kit I have ever seen and I've seen (and still have in the shed) some absolute shockers. As mentioned that would have to be old stock but is certainly a good advertisement why every reseller should inspect kits first before sale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This post is so "On the money" it is not even funny!! Only a couple of factory's make cylinders and each specific distributor has a specific requirement they require for there kit and have there name imprinted on the cylinder/piston... whatever part it is. Anytime a change is made they all get it.... there are a few who make there own cylinders/pistons. Some distributors refuse to pay the higher price just for the imprinted name, so you get a generic cylinder with no name but of the same quality as the one with a name. Each of them may designate a little tighter tolerance, why we see little differences but basically the same product.

Two manufactures that make there own, Tecomec and Meteor... hell, Stihl doesn't even make there own. And the ones like Stihl won't let that manufacturer sell to the open market..... anybody able to purchase a new Mahle cylinder in the open market without buying from Stihl directly... didn't think so. And I'm not talking about somebody selling on eBay or a used cylinder. New factory direct from Mahle?

Great post right here!


----------



## barneyrb (Dec 5, 2012)

barneyrb said:


> Brad, just for clarification how old are your pictures?



?????????????????


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> I've been quiet until now... And I gave considerable thought before I hit the reply button.
> 
> Your asking for bad cylinder comments and asking for comparisons, your telling people NOT to buy Meteor cylinders and you didn't read Randy's thread, got it.... but you have no hidden agenda... Since I'm the one with the Meteor kits for sale in my signature, I supplied Randy with his kit, I'll respond and call it as I see it.... just the same.
> 
> ...



A few things come to mind. How would I have known that you were supplying Randy's cylinders? The fact of the matter is, I didn't. Further more, it doesn't matter. I'm not attacking a you, Randy, or anyone else. I'm attacking a very poor product. So, we can leave the names of individuals and companies out of this.

Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then. Randy showed one good 372 kit. Jeremy shared another 460 kit that was nearly as bad as mine. Again, the inconsistency in quality.

Additionally, you're implying that because Randy got a decent kit, that they're all good and should be trusted. Quite the opposite has been the case with most of these AM kits. The quality control simply isn't there. Inconsistency is one of the main reasons that I simply won't deal with them for a paying customer. One cylinder will be fine, the next one junk. Do you think someone wants to pay $250 for a port job on a cylinder that is that inferior? IMHO, they're wasting their money, and I'm hurting my reputation. It's not profitable or wise for either party.

You mention that you have seen bad OEM cylinders as well. Bad is a very subjective term. I can guarantee you, that I have *never *seen a cylinder come from the factory any where near as bad as these kits that I shared. Also, OEM quality is *much *more consistent. To suggest otherwise is simply not being honest.

You related this to comparing my current work to my earliest work. The difference, is that I have shown the improvement as time went on. IMHO, the burden of responsibility is on the provider of said cylinders. If they've been that significantly improved, at a high level of consistency, then that needs to be shown. That's what I'm asking you, or anyone else, to do here. Referencing one cylinder does not do that. How many bad AM cylinders have we heard about, while at the same time, there are others running them fine. Again, you can't trust the quality. 

I want to add, that I highly respect the fact that Randy will not sell these kits as they come from the factory. That is consistent with the Randy that I know, that wouldn't put his name on junk. But, when I see them being pushed without said mods, then I feel that I hae a responsibility to share what I've seen with the rest of the community.

It would appear that you're asking me to buy one of your kits. Why would I want to do that? I'm not selling them and I'm not interested in them until I see a consistent huge improvement in quality. Again, that burden of responsibility is on the provider of said kits. And remember, I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply pointing out the problems that I see with these kits, as a service to this community of users that otherwise might not be aware of the risks. If you would like me to review a few new kits, I'd be more than happy to do so, and send them back afterwards. As always, I'll provide honest and transparent feedback, just like I have here. My goal here is not just to warn unsuspecting buyers, but ultimately, to see these products improve. I've given feedback and suggestions on these kits over the years, in an effort to help make that happen. I'd be more than happy to do that for you as well.


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## nmurph (Dec 5, 2012)

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## Cantdog (Dec 5, 2012)

After reading this whole thread the first thing that comes to mind (and I don't have a dog in this fight) is that when one bad kit surfaces on AS it is talked to death....1000s and 1000s of words spoken on the poor quality of the kit in question.....two bad kits and they are all junk and always will be.......this does not address the 1000s and 1000s of AM kits installed by saw shops and individuals around the world and the saws put back into service without a problem. Things that work as expected get no air play...kinda the "squeaky wheel" thing. Most could care less about port timing/casting flash etc. Practically everyone likes Meteor pistons and their dedication to quality casting/machining, so we would expect the quality to follow through to the P&C kits, but Brads pics do show a very poor kit......could that be put together and run fine??? I expect it could.... though I agree I would not want to be the the guy responsible for puting it together and handing it to a client. My point being is that one bad kit with enough air play can (and does) undermind the results of 1000s of kits currently in use. I am a little surprised that sellers of these kits have not posted some pics of later kits showing their improvements ( or not...)..... It does stand that no matter what.... a kit should be able to be used and assembled to a saw right out of the box.....you should not have to be big name saw builder to bring a simple 2 stroke back to life with a new top end....


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## albert (Dec 5, 2012)

Brad, what was the point of using the early production from years ago to start this thread? Why not look at or ask the guys selling them how the current ones are.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Anyone that reads this forum regularly should be aware that the quality of AM cylinders is spotty at best. These kits are no different than the rest of the cheap kits, yet they come with a name on them that most of us trust. That's dangerous for the unsuspecting buyer. I've seen my fair share of AM kits, and the quality simply isn't there. There has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that a kit installs and runs is not good enough for me. Would the kits I showed run? Sure. Would you want them on your saw? I highly doubt it. I certainly won't put my name on them.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?

BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.


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## SawTroll (Dec 5, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've not gotten a 460 kit yet but the 372 kit is pretty good right outta the box.



I understand there has been some signs lately that Meteor is improving the quality of their cylinders.

Also, there is one more question - in at least some ads it looks like they are made in Italy, but I am far from sure that is actually true. Are they all made the same place, or does it actually vary? :confused2:


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## Cantdog (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Anyone that reads this forum regularly should be aware that the quality of AM cylinders is spotty at best. These kits are no different than the rest of the cheap kits, yet they come with a name on them that most of us trust. That's dangerous for the unsuspecting buyer. I've seen my fair share of AM kits, and the quality simply isn't there. There has been no evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that a kit installs and runs is not good enough for me. Would the kits I showed run? Sure. Would you want them on your saw? I highly doubt it. I certainly won't put my name on them.



Yes I understand and agree Brad.....however we here at AS are what???? MAYBE one half of one percent of total of saw users/fixers world wide. (if that) Most people don't treat their saws like a family member and worry about every little thing.....it's a tool.....and only a tool... if it runs it's a good tool...if it does not run it's a bad tool....nothing more nothing less.........if it can't be fixed cheaply it's a replaced tool...

I agree also that quality control is generally somewhat lacking....that may also be different from different brands even if they are all made in the same shed....but in a capital based economy a bad thing either goes away or gets better.......ISO rating is the best way to try to tell good quality from bad on most things imported. 

I have forever said "If the OEM saw industry was at all serious about it there would be no after market and OEM P&C kits would NOT cost 75% of the cost of a new saw"...until that changes, (spelled NEVER) the plain fact is cheaper alternatives will be sold and these will eventually stratisfy like the the difference between Meteor pistons and Golf with the usable floating to the top and the inferior ones sinking........just to broad a pictue to paint with one brush IMHO....to infer they were bad and always will be...


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

SawTroll said:


> I understand there has been some signs lately that Meteor is improving the quality of their cylinders.
> 
> Also, there is one more question - in at least some ads it looks like they are made in Italy, but I am far from sure that is actually true. Are they all made the same place, or does it actually vary? :confused2:



As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. I've been disappointed, to say the least.


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## nmurph (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. I've been disappointed, to say the least.



Do they do the machining?


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## NPKenny (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?
> 
> BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.



I really think sending out an AM kit with ideal port shapes and timing would be the best scenario. I really can't understand why this isn't the case already. Basically ported out of the box. Certainly there are a few saw-to-saw type items such as squish that will have to be dealt with. 

It would cost no more in manufacturing to make this happen.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

nmurph said:


> Do they do the machining?



From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.


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## jerrycmorrow (Dec 5, 2012)

opcorn:


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> As several have noted, Meteor does not cast these cylinders, and there in lies the problem. They machine and plate them and throw in one of their fine pistons. Why they would put their name on these cylinders is beyond me. *I've been disappointed, to say the least.*



You've been disappointed because you had one in hand two years ago???????

I'm really not seeing where this "crusade" came from all of a sudden.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.


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## Arbonaut (Dec 5, 2012)

I'm using a Meteor kit to build a saw right now. I can't find anything wrong with it.For the work involved, it isn't that much cheaper than a Stihl kit. Probably half, but labor is what is expensive in America. If the Chinese are lagging in the area of casting metal, and the Italians are lagging in machining it, there is a gaping hole for a foundry and a CNC machinist in the U.S. to fill.


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## nmurph (Dec 5, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I'll use their pistons but have been to leary to try their cylinders.
> 
> I read somewhere the cylinders are not in house. Heard they are China, Taiwan cast, or somewhere else and supposedly shipped to be plated. Just what I read somewhere if my memory is right.





wigglesworth said:


> That's what I was told when I inquired. Cast in tiawan, plated in Italy.





blsnelling said:


> From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.



So, who does the machining? 

Everything you listed could largely be controlled in the mold making process. The beveling would be an after-thought, and the aftermarket kits are notorious for poor quality control on the beveling. They need to do a better job of training the six year olds on what is required to make a good bevel.


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.




I won't sell them as is because I modify cylinders......and I don't want to be in competition with watsonr. I do hear what you're saying though........but the use of two year old pics and blanket statements about the quality of Meteor kits is what makes this thread look as though you have an agenda. 

You may just be looking out for the good of us all but it does seem like an axe is being ground here.


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## kevinm9558 (Dec 5, 2012)

Stroker Ace said:


> I'm using a Meteor kit to build a saw right now. I can't find anything wrong with it.For the work involved, it isn't that much cheaper than a Stihl kit. Probably half, but labor is what is expensive in America. If the Chinese are lagging in the area of casting metal, and the Italians are lagging in machining it, there is a gaping hole for a foundry and a CNC machinist in the U.S. to fill.



Corporate taxes bro. It'll never happen with the current tax laws. Thats why Carhartt (and many others) have moved out to Mexico and beyond. Too bad though...


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.


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## edisto (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.



I'm still a little confused. When was the last time you had one of these in your hand, and how many have you seen in total?


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## Arbonaut (Dec 5, 2012)

(_From Bailey's current flyer._)

_
Never_ discount the United States of America and her ways, my friend. We are the _only _dog in the fight.




kevinm9558 said:


> Corporate taxes bro. It'll never happen with the current tax laws. *Thats why Carhartt *(and many others) have *moved out to Mexico* and beyond. Too bad though...


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> A few things come to mind. How would I have known that you were supplying Randy's cylinders? The fact of the matter is, I didn't. Further more, it doesn't matter. I'm not attacking a you, Randy, or anyone else. I'm attacking a very poor product. So, we can leave the names of individuals and companies out of this.
> 
> Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then. Randy showed one good 372 kit. Jeremy shared another 460 kit that was nearly as bad as mine. Again, the inconsistency in quality.
> 
> ...




I'm attacking a very poor product. 
Two years after the review you've decided to take up the flag again.

Further more, there has been no communication to suggest that these particular kits have been improved. I provided feedback, and have heard nothing since then.
Maybe you should have checked back before posting? Sounds like your pissed they never called.

You related this to comparing my current work to my earliest work. The difference, is that I have shown the improvement as time went on. IMHO, the burden of responsibility is on the provider of said cylinders. If they've been that significantly improved, at a high level of consistency, then that needs to be shown. 
I think Randy did showed that.... but you didn't read that thread.... ops.

I want to add, that I highly respect the fact that Randy will not sell these kits as they come from the factory. That is consistent with the Randy that I know, that wouldn't put his name on junk.
Randy sells MODIFIED cylinders, why would he want to compete with Bailey's, NorthWood saws... and me:msp_smile:

It would appear that you're asking me to buy one of your kits. Why would I want to do that? I'm not selling them and I'm not interested in them until I see a consistent huge improvement in quality. Again, that burden of responsibility is on the provider of said kits. And remember, I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm simply pointing out the problems that I see with these kits, as a service to this community of users that otherwise might not be aware of the risks. If you would like me to review a few new kits, I'd be more than happy to do so, and send them back afterwards. As always, I'll provide honest and transparent feedback, just like I have here. My goal here is not just to warn unsuspecting buyers, but ultimately, to see these products improve. I've given feedback and suggestions on these kits over the years, in an effort to help make that happen. I'd be more than happy to do that for you as well.

For a current comparison Brad... I'm not defending anything... you said that two years ago they were crap and in your personal opinion... still are. You used information from near two years ago to tell everybody your opinion today.

I'll tell you what... I'll send you a kit free of charge... so you can compare. You post up the timing numbers, compression and all those things you do and then compare it to an OEM cylinder... timed cuts and all. I'll bet the newer design is far superior than that piece of scrap you posted in the picture you started this thread with. You comment was.. they were junk then and still are, don't waste your money..... OK, Lets waste mine instead!



blsnelling said:


> Unless the market demands it, the quality won't change. Is this what you want to spend your hard earned dollars on?
> 
> BTW, I don't just gripe. I'll do anything I can to help see these kits improve. The potential is tremendous! These kits could easily come from the factory with optimized timing and properly shaped ports. I would love to see that happen. So, instead of seeing me as a complainer, realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.



Lets fight together..Post up your address and I'll send you a kit......:chatter:



Cantdog said:


> Yes I understand and agree Brad.....however we here at AS are what???? MAYBE one half of one percent of total of saw users/fixers world wide. (if that) Most people don't treat their saws like a family member and worry about every little thing.....it's a tool.....and only a tool... if it runs it's a good tool...if it does not run it's a bad tool....nothing more nothing less.........if it can't be fixed cheaply it's a replaced tool...
> 
> I agree also that quality control is generally somewhat lacking....that may also be different from different brands even if they are all made in the same shed....but in a capital based economy a bad thing either goes away or gets better.......ISO rating is the best way to try to tell good quality from bad on most things imported.
> 
> I have forever said "If the OEM saw industry was at all serious about it there would be no after market and OEM P&C kits would NOT cost 75% of the cost of a new saw"...until that changes, (spelled NEVER) the plain fact is cheaper alternatives will be sold and these will eventually stratisfy like the the difference between Meteor pistons and Golf with the usable floating to the top and the inferior ones sinking........just to broad a pictue to paint with one brush IMHO....to infer they were bad and always will be...



I couldn't agree more and neither did you Brad, you liked this post.....


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> From what I understand. The bore isn't usually the problem on AM cylinders, from what I've seen. Its usually port shape, size, timing, beveling, squish, and combustion chamber shape.


Should have read Randy's post.. did a little research to see if....in fact they have improved because of your feed back several years ago before posting your "Do not buy comments"....those things you mentioned are what... things a builder fixes on cylinders.... and in your particular case.... OEM cylinders. Why are you fixing OEM cylinders... they are perfect aren't they?



NPKenny said:


> I really think sending out an AM kit with ideal port shapes and timing would be the best scenario. I really can't understand why this isn't the case already. Basically ported out of the box. Certainly there are a few saw-to-saw type items such as squish that will have to be dealt with.
> 
> It would cost no more in manufacturing to make this happen.



Called copy right infringement. It would mean that builders like Brad would be out of business. Every cylinder needs tweaked by a builder, even OEM and those really good aftermarket cylinders... require the same amount of work. But for us boys that can't afford a Snelleriz'ed saw, these kits are about 1/2 the price and pretty damn good quality.



blsnelling said:


> I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.



I tell them what specs to follow, they build the kit and inspect. If I was building them I'd be called a manufacturer, not a supplier. I'll bet that hundreds a day are shipped. I'd love to pop over and inspect a few thousand, measure port timing, squish, angle and all that horse hockey every day and every kit! Your going to get a few bad one's I'm guessing... even OEM makes a few bad ones.

I'll ship you a kit as soon as I see your reply.... your shipping address in this thread..... for comparison of course. You have the only cylinder from two years ago to make an honest comparison... to really see if they have improved.



blsnelling said:


> I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? They can't be shipping that many of them each day.





blsnelling said:


> Many of the guys here have not had the opportunity to see what others of us have. I feel something of a responsibility to share what I've seen, with those who have not.  I've been very frank with one of the suppliers of these kits. Nothing would make me happier than to see these kits be what they could be. There is huge potential here! I would go out of my way to help make that happen. I've done what I could, but am still so frustrated by what we see here. What can be done? I don't know. But, I'd hate to see someone spend good money and receive something that looks and performs like these.



Most guys just want a saw that runs good without any extra effort or cost. If they were perfect (aftermarket kits or OEM for that matter) you wouldn't have a porting business and neither would anybody else..... fact.

Should have called me.

Sincerely....
Frank


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## w8ye (Dec 5, 2012)

I'm a hobbyist in another area where Far Eastern engines have taken over market share on price point alone.

They sometimes send out the poorest items you could imagine. QC and such things as ISO 9000/black belt are not part of their picture.

At one company, they try to rely on a high degree of automation for QC. The only quality control in that company is by the people that assemble the engines and the parts don't happen to fit. Luckily, and very unusual for China, this company does offer spare parts. But often they have machining defects for there is no QC on the spare parts.

Other labor saving tactics like as-cast bores before plating then honing with a ball hone that bounces across the ports, as cast bearing pockets, no fillet radii etc create ongoing problems. 

There's no scrap or surplus. All product goes on down the line and out the door. 

Manufacturing growth is so high in China that skilled or even reliable labor and employee turn over is a tremendous problem.

These companies are not concerned about their reputation as they will just change their name. They tend to think in terms of batches rather than continuous on-going production. Typical there is not complete interchangeability from one batch to the other. 

The more successful companies doing long term business with consumers in the USA, closely conform to the ideal USA business model.


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Randy, you won't even sell them without working them over. Then another sponsor starts pushing them as is. It's just an ongoing problem with most all of these AM kits. I simply find the Meteor kits more dangerous, because most of us trust the brand. Coming from you after mods would be an exception. Obviously those would be fine. I'm simply not satisfied with what's coming out of the factory. That's all.



He works over every cylinder and so do you... so why aren't you attacking the OEM cylinders for better quality, they need improvement according to you and your business.

The real reason you brought this up...... Isn't there a rule about this???


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## jus2fat (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I'm just fed up with the poor quality. If the suppliers want that image changed, quit shipping junk. * How hard would it be to inspect them before they go out the door? * They can't be shipping that many of them each day.


I totally agree with Brad's statement on Meteor needing a better inspection system in place - _Trained_ inspectors..!!

I worked for an international company in the Quality Control (now) Quality Assurance Dept. for 18 years.
(we manufactured in four countries around the world)

You could use our product and if problems - ANY - you could get a free replacement or your $$ back..!!

Did we get 'burned' occasionally..sure we did - but a 1st and 2nd 'final' inspection really meant quality out the door..!!
(about 3-4 replacements or requests for their $$ back - We just wouldn't sell to that customer any more)

Sure...we occasionally sent some 'border-line' stuff out...but that's just business all manufactures do.

I read Brad as just saying quality should be better for a 'known' and 'trusted' manufacturer...
AND there should be a better inspection - to see that lesser quality items Don't get shipped..that' all..!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read the whole thread - and I haven't as yet seen any pics of the New and Improved Meteor cylinders.

If they are better Now - Where's the pics so we can all SEE the improvements...until then this just a 'pissing-match'..!!

J2F


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## thomas1 (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> ...realize that I'm fighting for the good of the community.



This might be the funniest thing I've ever read on AS. Complete bull####, but funny. :cow:oop:


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> I totally agree with Brad's statement on Meteor needing a better inspection system in place - _Trained_ inspectors..!!
> 
> I worked for an international company in the Quality Control (now) Quality Assurance Dept. for 18 years.
> (we manufactured in four countries around the world)
> ...



YEP... I'm a supplier, not a manufacturer and I offer a 90 warranty.. even if you straight gas the thing, I'll send you a new one! My gripe is that he used an old product to report on..... not really fair.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Randy, this is good stuff. I'd be more than happy to review a kit for you. The only problem is that I have no stock cylinder here to compare it to. What I'm most interested in can be visually inspected and measured with a degree wheel. My 440 is currently wearing a Mahle 460 topend, which I would be more than willing to remove for this review. 

Please do not take offense to this as I don't know you personally, but can you ensure that I don't recieve a hand picked kit? I hope you understand my request. Please don't take it personal.

My main concern with your replies is that you don't seem to really be owning the fact that there has been an ongoing problem with most all AM cylinder kits. Meteor is simply one of many. I've picked Meteor to pick on because of their reputation supplying top notch pistons. This would naturally lead us to think that the cylinders would be no different, at least it did me. Have we, or have we not had a serious ongoing problem with poor quality kits? I think the answer is clear, even today. 

If you as a supplier are influencing this product in a significant way, then my hat's off to you and I applaud you for that. Other attemps have only been marginally successful. As much as the 066BB kits have improved, we still get reports of free porting and pistons hitting crowns. It drives me crazy to no end. 

I will PM you my address. I see no reason to post it here in the open forum. That practice is ill advised.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> He works over every cylinder and so do you... so why aren't you attacking the OEM cylinders for better quality, they need improvement according to you and your business.
> 
> The real reason you brought this up...... Isn't there a rule about this???



I have. I guess you didn't read that thread, but that's OK. Stihl cast cylinders aren't near what we used to expect from Mahle. I did a thread on that one as well. I'm no respector of persons or companies.

Are you seriously saying that AM kits are as good and consistent as OEM? If so, I think I'm fighting a lost cause here.

I really have no idea what you're talking about in your last statement.


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## dingeryote (Dec 5, 2012)

Stroker Ace said:


> (_From Bailey's current flyer._)
> 
> _
> Never_ discount the United States of America and her ways, my friend. We are the _only _dog in the fight.



If you keep reading that flyer ad, it's a limited production run here in the U.S., which sucks...they have to have a special sale and point it out.
The factory in Mexico must have had a fire or something.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Arbonaut (Dec 5, 2012)

dingeryote said:


> If you keep reading that flyer ad, it's a limited production run here in the U.S., which sucks...they have to have a special sale and point it out.
> *The factory in Mexico must have had a fire or something*.
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I think they changed over to sew flak jackets at the Mexican facility. Just a limited production run.


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## BrocLuno (Dec 5, 2012)

Let's see - dead saw motor - no power. OEM kit same power on a well used saw :msp_confused: AM kit on a well used saw and it's back in the mix for cheap :msp_smile:

Point being once the saw is blown up or stuck, it's not doing any good. Cheap kit gets it back to being useable, excellent. Ain't building a race saw here. Just pulling a dead dog out and giving it some extra life.

I have two Meteor kits installed. Both run quite well. No real touch up work done. Good enough for a loaner or occasional use. Certainly good enough for CL or eBay.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

You're pretty much validating my point. As I read your post, you wouldn't want one on a regularly used personal saw? I think most of the market expects a little more than that.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Randy, this is good stuff. I'd be more than happy to review a kit for you. The only problem is that I have no stock cylinder here to compare it to. What I'm most interested in can be visually inspected and measured with a degree wheel. My 440 is currently wearing a Mahle 460 topend, which I would be more than willing to remove for this review.
> 
> Please do not take offense to this as I don't know you personally, but can you ensure that I don't recieve a hand picked kit? I hope you understand my request. Please don't take it personal.
> 
> ...



I wrote a huge reply and inadvertently erased it in my haste to post. In that post I said it would be factory direct kit without my interference... that is a promise! I've been a man of my word since I can remember, I'm a retired Submarine sailor who takes pride in my integrity and I'll say that aftermarket kits are not up to par in most cases... except his one. They have made significant improvement in quality in the last two years. Nothing personal here, just that you made a blanket statement that did not sit right with me and you hadn't done a RECENT review of this product.... that's where my gripe lays.

I'll provide the kit and you give me an honest review, that's all I'm asking.. Overall, these kits are of very good quality and are the best value compared to OEM. I do NOT inspect them, I've looked at a bunch of them and felt that overall they are pretty darn good or I wouldn't carry them. Hell, even some of the Chinese made stuff is of pretty good quality... 1000's have sold without problems... you've only mentioned two.

I never take things personal unless you call me stupid, talk about my family, call me bad names, or say I can't hold my booze.... cross that line my friend and we will have a problem! 

None of my kits are hand picked and they never will be.


----------



## edisto (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> You're pretty much validating my point. As I read your post, you wouldn't want one on a regularly used personal saw? I think most of the market expects a little more than that.



At what price point?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

We're 100% on the same page now


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

Meteor Cylinder kit shipped to your address, It's the MS460 flavor!

I'm going to have a seat now. I'm in Japan and its 3:09 AM and I'm due in to work in 3.5 hours.

I can't wait for this build!:msp_smile:


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

Hope you can find an OEM cylinder to compare, this isn't a comparison to a modified cylinder. Most guys like to read those types of threads, this is about an aftermarket replacement to OEM....comparing apples to apples here. We all like to read these kinds of threads!


----------



## kevinm9558 (Dec 5, 2012)

Stroker Ace said:


> _Never_ discount the United States of America and her ways, my friend. We are the _only _dog in the fight.



View attachment 265754

Not trying to start a fight good sir, and believe me, I am as much of a red-blooded American as they come. I served our country PROUDLY for five years in the United States Marine Corps as my father did 40 years ago, and I am a six year member of UA Local 32 Plumbers and Pipefitters. I do not discount the United States of America, but her ways do sadden me. 
This misunderstanding just proves my point all the more.
These "American corporations" are not stupid and are saving ALOT of money by outsourcing most of their products. -Have you noticed where most of the parts for your Ford come from? In general, they have a small portion of their products manufactured in the U.S. which allows them to print "Made in America" on their ads in the Bailey's catalogue (for instance), but most of their profit comes from overseas where taxes, labor, and materials are cheaper. They do this so that we (proud, red-blooded Americans) who love our country and want to support it by buying American-made products, continue to buy them. 
Well, I'll get off my soap-box for now. Again, I mean no disrespect whatsoever to you or your opinions, and I'd be happy to talk to you further in private about the subject if you'd like.


----------



## jus2fat (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Hope you can find an OEM cylinder to compare, this isn't a comparison to a modified cylinder. Most guys like to read those types of threads, this is about an aftermarket replacement to OEM....comparing apples to apples here. We all like to read these kinds of threads!


I would think Brad should have no problem "seeing or borrowing" an OEM MS460 cylinder from his 'personal' Stihl dealer.

J2F


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

kevinm9558 said:


> View attachment 265754
> 
> Not trying to start a fight good sir, and believe me, I am as much of a red-blooded American as they come. I served our country PROUDLY for five years in the United States Marine Corps as my father did 40 years ago, and I am a six year member of UA Local 32 Plumbers and Pipefitters. I do not discount the United States of America, but her ways do sadden me.
> This misunderstanding just proves my point all the more.
> ...



Semper-fi!!

I buy from a distributor who buys from a manufacturer. To bad they outsourced our own country into the position were in now! If someone actually made a kit in the US, that would be something... it would still be subject to criticism and could be just as crappy!


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 5, 2012)

Hasn't Brad already stated he couldn't make power in these cylinders? Has his porting gotten better?.......any bets?......Hahahahahahaha!




blsnelling said:


> .....Meteor cylinder kits.......I received a couple samples early on..... I ported the better of these two, and it still didn't make power. I used the same numbers that make an OEM cylinder run very well.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

While I'm waiting on this new one, does no one else have pics of their Meteor cylinder ports?


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Hey Dennis, if you want, I could teach you how to quote a post. It's really not that difficult. Even a hotsaw builder could do it.


----------



## nmurph (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Hey Dennis, if you want, I could teach you how to quote a post. It's really not that difficult. Even a hotsaw builder could do it.



Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! ad infinitum and ad nauseum.


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Hey Dennis, if you want, I could teach you how to quote a post. It's really not that difficult. Even a hotsaw builder could do it.




Sure, thanks Brad.........sorry, can't return the porting favor.:hmm3grin2orange:........but I can show you how to fell a tree.


----------



## Arbonaut (Dec 5, 2012)

kevinm9558 said:


> View attachment 265754
> 
> Not trying to start a fight good sir, and believe me, I am as much of a red-blooded American as they come.
> This misunderstanding just proves my point all the more.
> ...



No offense taken. I'd talk to you any time, Kevin.  

I have a Ford?


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## MCW (Dec 5, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Sure, thanks Brad.........sorry, can't return the porting favor.:hmm3grin2orange:........but I can show you how to fell a tree.



I'll exchange beer for a video of you felling an 8 foot Douglas Fir with a bike saw 
Rumour has it you've felled a tree or ten


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

WOW, my email is blowing up.... must be a hot topic of discussion here! :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> WOW, my email is blowing up.... must be a hot topic of discussion here! :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



I heard that some people will stay up half the night following a thread


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2012)

This is one of those crummy top ends......

[video=youtube;JOKDTsact3U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKDTsact3U[/video]


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

Brad, 
After some serious thinking, I can actually empathize with your position... but maybe your thinking on smaller terms and/or a different angle may have a better approach?

I manufacture cylinders and by the thousands. Sell those cylinders world wide every day and in general my rejection/defect % is small. Even if I sell crap and the majority doesn't complain, I must be doing a pretty good job.... my return rate is even smaller then rejection rate. So overall my production is pretty good, quality control is satisfactory and a small percentage are always unsatisfied... be that what it may.

Several people did initially complain and I've taken that into consideration, made several adjustments and those few selected individuals stopped complaining or at least became a little quieter. That group in America called Arborist Site did have some pretty decent criticism, but seems to have quieted down and they are buying my products with a fever... must have made the correct changes......

And now my opinion... your fight against the poor quality should have never waned, I'm not sure that your input may have been interpreted correctly... Maybe it never got to the right person or you were saying it in a language not understood. We all know that you hear what you believe you heard and not maybe what was said sometimes, every person is a little different and sometimes, things come out wrong. It could be that the market is so small to this specific audience that they can continue to sell crap (according to some members here) and disregard some individuals personal observation..... hence, we have choices of different branded cylinders to choose from..... and the option to not buy a specific brand.

I'm glad you spoke up again.... glad that maybe I spurred you along. Now together as a team, lets see if we can force some change for the better of this small community! I want to sell a good product, you want a good product..... seems reasonable to me.. we all like saws the rip!!


----------



## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I heard that some people will stay up half the night following a thread



And half way across the world!


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## watsonr (Dec 5, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> This is one of those crummy top ends......
> 
> [video=youtube;JOKDTsact3U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKDTsact3U[/video]



That saw rips!! You can actually hear it dieseling thru the cut like a much larger saw would do, as in the 100+cc kind. You can hear that sound in some of Lee's threads when running big Homelites and Macs.

So spill it Randy, what did you think?


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 5, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> This is one of those crummy top ends......



What's really remarkable is that you were able to train an orangutang to run a chainsaw...


----------



## jus2fat (Dec 5, 2012)

This thread is now seven pages deep and I've yet to see anyone post pics for any New and Improved Cylinders..!!

Sooo what's up with that..?? - Seeing is the start to believing generally - sooo where's the pics..??

J2F


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Brad,
> After some serious thinking, I can actually empathize with your position... but maybe your thinking on smaller terms and/or a different angle may have a better approach?
> 
> I manufacture cylinders and by the thousands. Sell those cylinders world wide every day and in general my rejection/defect % is small. Even if I sell crap and the majority doesn't complain, I must be doing a pretty good job.... my return rate is even smaller then rejection rate. So overall my production is pretty good, quality control is satisfactory and a small percentage are always unsatisfied... be that what it may.
> ...




If you can back up that much, I'll oil my reverse gear as well, lol You're exactly right when you suggested that I should have made an attempt to learn more about the current status. Being the extravert tha I am, I spoke in haste. 

All AM cylinder problems kind of go in a single bin in my mind. When I hear of another problem, it's another straw on that camels back. Meteor problems get extra weight because I expect much more out of them, as earned by their fantastic pistons. There are other kits that have really frustrated me more recently. 

I know that it might sound like a crock of you know what, but it really is my desire for better quality for all of us that I'm after. The potential in these kits is *HUGE*! Go ahead, put me out of business, lol. I'm turning all work down right now anyway, lol.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2012)

watsonr said:


> That saw rips!! You can actually hear it dieseling thru the cut like a much larger saw would do, as in the 100+cc kind. You can hear that sound in some of Lee's threads when running big Homelites and Macs.
> 
> So spill it Randy, what did you think?



The plating is very tough so cutting the squish band is no easy task as the plating continues completely across the top of the cylinder. The port timing stock is comparable to the OEM jugs I've been inside of. The transfer tunnels are as large if not larger than an OEM jug. I see no issues with the 372 top end.......I need an MS460 to play with now.


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## blsnelling (Dec 5, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> After that #### you posted about Wiggs.....I just ignore you hoping you'll fall off the ####ing globe.



Uh oh. Don't see Randy upset very often. I must have missed something! BTW, the saw sounds great


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## Mastermind (Dec 5, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Uh oh. Don't see Randy upset very often. I must have missed something! BTW, the saw sounds great



I'm far from upset......just speaking frankly. :msp_wink:


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 5, 2012)

Here is the cylinder catalog in case any one was wondering...

Meteor Piston Cylinders Products Catalog



And they are not selling BB kits because they don't manufacture the pistons to suit - only OEM replacement parts.


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## LowVolt (Dec 5, 2012)

It would be really cool to get say 5 different AM kits and put them all to the test and see who comes out the winner.


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## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm far from upset......just speaking frankly. :msp_wink:



So that makes three people speaking about Frank' in this thread... Brad and two Randy's... Will the real FRANK please stand up!



jus2fat said:


> This thread is now seven pages deep and I've yet to see anyone post pics for any New and Improved Cylinders..!!
> 
> Sooo what's up with that..?? - Seeing is the start to believing generally - sooo where's the pics..??
> 
> J2F




Fat... 
We've agreed to do a comparison of OEM to Meteor and Brad is going to do it. If I had a cylinder here in my hands, I'd gladly post some... remember I'm a supplier, not a distributor or a manufacturer... I prefer not to touch your product, it adds cost to the consumer... that's you... well not really, Unless you have one of my kits?

Pictures here>>>>>>> http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/212122.htm <<<<< Pictures here.

Brad's gripe is that in general, he's seen sub-par kits sold to the public, that kit Randy had didn't look sub-standard to me... did it to you? Happens to also be Brad likes the 460 and why he referenced all his comment towards that particular model..... he didn't read the thread either, well maybe he has now. He's invited and welcome to, you as well, compare the stock OEM 372 to the Meteor kit Randy showed. We could even make a shout out to the members here...

ANYBODY have one of these kits to show?? Speak up... I know your buying them, I won't give up the names.

... that is unless you have a kit or would like to order one?? Maybe yours will arrive first! Link supplied in my signature for your ordering pleasure.

Oh... there will be another thread coming by an all together different builder, not counting Brad or Randy... using one of my kits of a different flavor.
I can't wait... this is exciting isn't it!!! 

LETS SEE PICTURES! :cool2:


----------



## parrisw (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> So that makes three people speaking about Frank' in this thread... Brad and two Randy's... Will the real FRANK please stand up!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could do a thread on one, but it'll be a while. When I get around to it I may get a 395 and a 372 one, need both. But got other stuff to do first. Would be real nice if they started making parts for 390's, I would definitely buy a few of those.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I could do a thread on one, but it'll be a while. When I get around to it I may get a 395 and a 372 one, need both. But got other stuff to do first. Would be real nice if they started making parts for 390's, I would definitely buy a few of those.



Not sure what drives them to a particular model. It would be nice if they did every one of them... maybe there scared of becoming the OEM? That would limit there distribution and reduce production... I wouldn't do that!


----------



## parrisw (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Not sure what drives them to a particular model. It would be nice if they did every one of them... maybe there scared of becoming the OEM? That would limit there distribution and reduce production... I wouldn't do that!



Don't know either. Just seems silly that they makes pistons for 385's but not 390, exact same saw, just slightly bigger bore.


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## SawTroll (Dec 6, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Don't know either. Just seems silly that they makes pistons for 385's but not 390, exact same saw, just slightly bigger bore.



Not silly, actually makes perfect sense - who would want a 385 cylinder when he can just as well put a 390 one on there? :msp_wink:


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## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> This thread is now seven pages deep and I've yet to see anyone post pics for any New and Improved Cylinders..!!
> 
> Sooo what's up with that..?? - Seeing is the start to believing generally - sooo where's the pics..??
> J2F



Here you go. Dolmar/Makita BB...
Other kits that have similar finish to these are the MS660 BB and 372XP BB.
Nice kits and in this case also have good squish. These Dolmar BB kits were coming in between .020 - .022" and pulling around 170-180psi compression. A number of guys on this site are running these kits. They even had good quality rings for a change.
This wasn't a hand picked one either and these photos are a few years old now.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

That is a damn fine looking kit... 

With compression and finish like that why would I spend $300 on OEM?


----------



## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

And 395XP BB...


















MS660 BB (this model is absolutely spot on and have had not one single fault/problem with nearly 50 kits)...

EDIT: Actually a couple of piston pins have been a few mm too long...


----------



## imagineero (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> That is a damn fine looking kit...
> 
> With compression and finish like that why would I spend $300 on OEM?



So that there will be saws to buy in future maybe?


----------



## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

And now for the OEM lovers.
Here is a genuine MS660 kit pulled from a BRAND NEW MS660 a few years back. Brad Snelling built two MS660's for me and the internal quality of both was a joke (after porting it didn't matter but...)
We have a problem yes?



























Anybody that rags on aftermarket kits really needs to open their eyeballs for a change. We all ackowledge that Mahle are top quality kits but we forget that a lot of newer pro saws stopped running Mahle components a fair way back. Companies like Stihl are starting to cheap out their internals.


----------



## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

imagineero said:


> So that there will be saws to buy in future maybe?



I don't think Stihl are making millions from replacement P&C kits.


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## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

MCW said:


> I don't think Stihl are making millions from replacement P&C kits.



Go to any Stihl dealer and ask if they have parts saws in the back, most will say no. They quote an outrageous price for there OEM kit including repair cost and then tell customers to buy new if the price is not acceptable... that is what kills me! And we wonder why some dealers do this, not me... my dealer is asking me for aftermarket parts. The saws that come in for repair that get quoted a high repair bill based on replacement OEM parts an shop labor charges are told... as they walk out he door with saw in hand to call me... The Stihl Gold Tech tells them to call me....:msp_wink:


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

Operator's are standing by to take your order's now.....


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## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

MCW said:


> And now for the OEM lovers.
> Here is a genuine MS660 kit pulled from a BRAND NEW MS660 a few years back. Brad Snelling built two MS660's for me and the internal quality of both was a joke (after porting it didn't matter but...)
> We have a problem yes?
> 
> ...



Those look pretty rough!


----------



## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Those look pretty rough!



Well with a lot of people sh*tbagging aftermarket I thought I'd just drop some dodgey OEM photos on here so that little Billy who just dropped $1100 on a new MS660 isn't under the illusion that his brand new pro Stihl is somehow superior to an MS660 fitted with an aftermarket kit.

NOTE: The finish of the MS660 kits does not mean they make poor power or are unreliable. That's not the case at all however to see a finish like this on the internals of brand new, highly regarded pro saws is a bit of a disappointment. These have been in threads before on AS.


----------



## ZeroJunk (Dec 6, 2012)

I have installed a bunch of aftermarket kits and for the most part didn't do anything to them. I have never had a problem with any of them.

And, they ran close enough to OEM that you wouldn't notice any difference, I'm not sure there was anything significant.

But, I am more interested in how they run than what they look like. And, I don't need to time a bunch of cookies to tell whether it will do a job or not.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

MCW said:


> Well with a lot of people sh*tbagging aftermarket I thought I'd just drop some dodgey OEM photos on here so that little Billy who just dropped $1100 on a new MS660 isn't under the illusion that his brand new pro Stihl is somehow superior to an MS660 fitted with an aftermarket kit.
> 
> NOTE: The finish of the MS660 kits does not mean they make poor power or are unreliable. That's not the case at all however to see a finish like this on the internals of brand new, highly regarded pro saws is a bit of a disappointment. These have been in threads before on AS.



AND remain largely UN-reported I'd wager to say! Like mentioned before... they all have there problems, no part is perfect 100% of the time. The aftermarket world is catching up rapidly... look around, you'd be surprised at whats really out there.... just have to look!


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Those look pretty rough!



See, I'm no respector of brands That cylinder was crap!


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I could do a thread on one, but it'll be a while. When I get around to it I may get a 395 and a 372 one, need both. But got other stuff to do first. Would be real nice if they started making parts for 390's, I would definitely buy a few of those.



Yeppers......a 390XP top end would be most welcome here. 

Thanks for those pics Matt.....the kits in them look like runners right of the shelf. Some assembly required of course. 

I apologize for the comment that I directed at jus2fat........my feathers were ruffled about several things.......that had no place in this thread.


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 6, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> ....my feathers were ruffled about several things.....



I see what you did there.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> I see what you did there.


----------



## SkippyKtm (Dec 6, 2012)

Mastermind said:


>



Randy, is that you?:hmm3grin2orange:

Thanks for the laugh!:haha:


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 6, 2012)

Interesting time to sell an OEM topend. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/tradin-post/216626.htm


----------



## 8433jeff (Dec 6, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> Interesting time to sell an OEM topend.
> 
> http://www.arboristsite.com/tradin-post/216626.htm



This polar bear guy here, he sees about everything there is to see.

Must get his excellent eyesight from squinting hard while pushing impacted seal parts, and stuff.


----------



## jus2fat (Dec 6, 2012)

MCW said:


> Here you go. Dolmar/Makita BB...
> Other kits that have similar finish to these are the MS660 BB and 372XP BB.
> Nice kits and in this case also have good squish. These Dolmar BB kits were coming in between .020 - .022" and pulling around 170-180psi compression. A number of guys on this site are running these kits. They even had good quality rings for a change.
> This wasn't a hand picked one either and these photos are a few years old now.


Thanks for the GREAT pics..MCW - that's exactly what I was asking to see..!!

I really enjoy your posts as you are a straight-shooter and give unbiased opinions and reviews and experiences..!!

As Brad said...Meteor is / was screwing themselves by shipping inconsistent quality cylinders to their detriment.
They had the "ball in their court" and had the opportunity to rule the AM piston and cylinder market...and they didn't do it.

Thanks again for the really good pics..!!

J2F


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2012)

DSS said:


> No, when you had a supposed problem, you should have shut up, but that seems to be beyond you. You shot your mouth off about someone you didn't know, whose position you didn't know and about things that were in any case none of your damn business.
> 
> And still you apparently learned nothing by having several of us tell you just that, your mission in life seems to be yapping about things that you have no clue about.
> 
> And don't ever imagine yourself on the same level as Randy, you couldn't shine his shoes on a good day. You're going back on the ignore list now.



So.....how do you really feel Chris???? :msp_sneaky:


----------



## DSS (Dec 6, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> So.....how do you really feel Chris???? :msp_sneaky:



Much better thanks. :msp_cursing::msp_cursing:

wazzup?


----------



## cowroy (Dec 6, 2012)

I repped you earlier this mornin my bovine friend or else it would certainly happen again. :msp_thumbup:


----------



## wyk (Dec 6, 2012)

I like pear compote.


----------



## MCW (Dec 6, 2012)

jus2fat said:


> Thanks for the GREAT pics..MCW - that's exactly what I was asking to see..!!
> 
> I really enjoy your posts as you are a straight-shooter and give unbiased opinions and reviews and experiences..!!
> 
> ...



Hey no worries. In fact some of the issues with certain kits can't be seen easily in a simple photo such as squish, lack of compression, and freeporting exhausts for example. Now I'm no saw porter or timing guru so when I was testing a lot of these kits I sent them off to other more technically minded AS members to get their feedback.
With some of the earlier kits I had the feedback was not good, even on kits that to the naked eye looked perfect. Some of Brad's original feedback was very valuable in regard to freeporting, port shape, and even tilted ports.
As mentioned high squish and a lack of compression is one constant complaint but only from saw builders. I have sold numerous kits on eBay with not one single complaint as the average buyer doesn't care that he only has 140-150psi as the saw still runs and performs well. In saying that though most kits are matching OEM for compression or are within 10psi.
For the guys who like ported/modded saws with higher compression that's where Randy steps in with squish band mods.


----------



## w8ye (Dec 6, 2012)

I get the idea that there are many different Chinese outfits and one Taiwan company making these AM cylinders. When people are selling them, they rarely mention the brand or source. Unless I can lay my eyes on one or have the word of a respected chainsaw man, I'm not buying a no name P&C.


----------



## wyk (Dec 6, 2012)

MCW said:


> Hey no worries. In fact some of the issues with certain kits can't be seen easily in a simple photo such as squish, lack of compression, and freeporting exhausts for example. Now I'm no saw porter or timing guru so when I was testing a lot of these kits I sent them off to other more technically minded AS members to get their feedback.
> With some of the earlier kits I had the feedback was not good, even on kits that to the naked eye looked perfect. Some of Brad's original feedback was very valuable in regard to freeporting, port shape, and even tilted ports.
> As mentioned high squish and a lack of compression is one constant complaint but only from saw builders. I have sold numerous kits on eBay with not one single complaint as the average buyer doesn't care that he only has 140-150psi as the saw still runs and performs well. In saying that though most kits are matching OEM for compression or are within 10psi.
> For the guys who like ported/modded saws with higher compression that's where Randy steps in with squish band mods.



You got a pic of one of those fancy 77cc 365/372BB kits? What do they usually do for compression?


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 6, 2012)

DSS said:


> No, when you had a supposed problem, you should have shut up, but that seems to be beyond you. You shot your mouth off about someone you didn't know, whose position you didn't know and about things that were in any case none of your damn business.
> 
> And still you apparently learned nothing by having several of us tell you just that, your mission in life seems to be yapping about things that you have no clue about.
> 
> And don't ever imagine yourself on the same level as Randy, you couldn't shine his shoes on a good day. You're going back on the ignore list now.



Stuff like this has no place in this thread.

Honesty and ingregrity, I mean.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

Alright now... I'm headed out to sea with no internet service until late Sunday night or Monday some time... you boys behave! Keep the pressure up on Brad... he may actually get that kit Friday or Saturday.... god I hope so... I'm dying to see the look on his face when he see's that things have changed..

Brad, we need pictures, numbers and the look in your eye when you see this kit. You know, the one with one eyebrow cocked up (the one with a big scar above it) and a sheepish grin on your face.. that would be a good picture to show.....

followed closely by an order of a few of those kits!!:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

This thread is going to explode while I'm gone....


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Alright now... I'm headed out to sea with no internet service until late Sunday night or Monday some time... you boys behave!



Have a safe one Senior Chief.  Dad is retired AOC from 70's


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Have a safe one Senior Chief.  Dad is retired AOC from 70's



Thanks!


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Thanks!



58-78or9 just to clear that up.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 6, 2012)

8433jeff said:


> This polar bear guy here, he sees about everything there is to see.
> 
> Must get his excellent eyesight from squinting hard while pushing impacted seal parts, and stuff.



Impacted Seal parts are the least of Tom's worries, especially where his digestive tract is concerned. 



watsonr said:


> Operator's are standing by to take your order's now.....



I'll take a BLT on whole wheat toast.


----------



## DSS (Dec 6, 2012)

JJ said bacon.


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 6, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Impacted Seal parts are the least of Tom's worries, especially where his digestive tract is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take a BLT on whole wheat toast.



I know this is humor at my expense, but you're so damn likeable I just don't know what to say.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 6, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I'll take a BLT on whole wheat toast.



No chance in HELL of getting one of those here in Japan!



JeremiahJohnson said:


> 58-78or9 just to clear that up.


When men were made of steel!

Some still are:msp_wink:


----------



## stihl sawing (Dec 6, 2012)

Ok Gentlemen, Lets play nice. I deleted three post here.


----------



## DSS (Dec 6, 2012)

stihl sawing said:


> Ok Gentlemen, Lets play nice. I deleted three post here.



 We was just getting wound up.

:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2012)

stihl sawing said:


> Ok Gentlemen, Lets play nice. I deleted three post here.



Gentlemen????????

Using that term a bit loosely ain't ya SS? :msp_unsure:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Alright now... I'm headed out to sea with no internet service until late Sunday night or Monday some time... you boys behave! Keep the pressure up on Brad... he may actually get that kit Friday or Saturday.... god I hope so... I'm dying to see the look on his face when he see's that things have changed..
> 
> Brad, we need pictures, numbers and the look in your eye when you see this kit. You know, the one with one eyebrow cocked up (the one with a big scar above it) and a sheepish grin on your face.. that would be a good picture to show.....
> 
> ...



Have a safe trip!


----------



## stihl sawing (Dec 6, 2012)

DSS said:


> We was just getting wound up.
> 
> :hmm3grin2orange:


That what i was gettin scared of.:hmm3grin2orange:



Mastermind said:


> Gentlemen????????
> 
> Using that term a bit loosely ain't ya SS? :msp_unsure:


Uhhh Probably so.:msp_w00t:


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## DSS (Dec 6, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Gentlemen????????
> 
> Using that term a bit loosely ain't ya SS? :msp_unsure:



He went Mad Dog and deleted my ass.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Dec 6, 2012)

DSS said:


> He went Mad Dog and deleted my ass.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



There ain't enough bandwidth for that Brody.


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## blsnelling (Dec 6, 2012)

stihl sawing said:


> Ok Gentlemen, Lets play nice. I deleted three post here.



I'm off-line for a few hours and the place goes to the dogs, lol


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## Chris J. (Dec 6, 2012)

I wish that I had 'multi-quoted' several posts, but I'm not about to go through this entire thread a second time .

Brad, I hope that I have this straight--The Meteor 460 (440?) kits with the crappy cylinders that upset you were the early ones. You haven't personally seen the more recent kits. Randy/Watsoner is going to send/have sent to you a new Meteor 460 kit (from stock, not cherrypicked) for you to inspect. Your going to post photos and your impression of the 'newer' Meteor cylinder in the kit.


Broncoluna--In your opinion, bad or mediocre AM kits are OK for saws sold on eBay & CL? Please post your eBay seller name so that I (and others) don't purchase a rebuilt chainsaw from you.

Just2Fat--Were you ever a politician, gymnast, or professional dancer? Your ability to flipflop, backpedal, & CYA is amazing.


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## DSS (Dec 6, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I'm off-line for a few hours and the place goes to the *dogs*, lol



Actually it was a rooster...


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## LowVolt (Dec 6, 2012)

I got a newb question for brad. 

From all the reading it sounds like if you guys get a saw to port you dont really care what the cylinder looks like because you are going to work your magic and smooth everything out. If you ported one of these early cylinders to the exact specs that you did and oem kit, how did it not make the same amount of power as the oem kit? You guys massage these things to your standards to bring out all the ponies they got so what was the X factor that made the oem run so much better? Materials used? 

Just wondering...


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2012)

LowVolt said:


> I got a newb question for brad.
> 
> From all the reading it sounds like if you guys get a saw to port you dont really care what the cylinder looks like because you are going to work your magic and smooth everything out. If you ported one of these early cylinders to the exact specs that you did and oem kit, how did it not make the same amount of power as the oem kit? You guys massage these things to your standards to bring out all the ponies they got so what was the X factor that made the oem run so much better? Materials used?
> 
> Just wondering...



volumes, shapes, weights and the materials come into play when you're trying to make power. Timing numbers are only one part of making a good running engine. 

To think any of these kits are on par with top of the line OEM products, is nothing more than a pipe dream. You get what you pay for "most of the time". Know what you're buying and make your dissensions accordingly. If I want something that will more than likely last a long time, I buy OEM. If I'm looking to save money and cut corners aftermarket is an option. I guess??

Y'all can buy all the Asian junk you want and make Communist countries rich, at the exact same time you're calling representatives in our own country Communists. At least Brad stands behind what he believes and doesn't sell his soul buying Walmart junk. Just my opinion, dislike it all you want, we're still free to think and do as we please.


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## bucknfeller (Dec 7, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Y'all can buy all the Asian junk you want and make Communist countries rich, at the exact same time you're calling representatives in our own country Communists. At least Brad stands behind what he believes and doesn't sell his soul buying Walmart junk. Just my opinion, dislike it all you want, we're still free to think and do as we please.



To the best of my knowledge none of the kits are made here in the USA, so what does it matter if were making the Germans, Japs, Chineese, or Italians rich? That part is not really a factor to me, once the $ leaves the country I don't really give a oop: where it goes. All of us fund hostile nations every day at the gas pump. But like you say..."we're still free to think and do as we please"


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 7, 2012)

Ya I agree with you.

Sorry to rephrase I was agreeing with Andyshine


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## bcorradi (Dec 7, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> To the best of my knowledge none of the kits are made here in the USA, so what does it matter if were making the Germans, Japs, Chineese, or Italians rich? That part is not really a factor to me, once the $ leaves the country I don't really give a oop: where it goes. All of us fund hostile nations every day at the gas pump. But like you say..."we're still free to think and do as we please"


I'd way rather make the italians, japs, germans, or swedes rich vs the chinese, but it is up to you.


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 7, 2012)

MCW said:


> I don't think Stihl are making millions from replacement P&C kits.



Think about that statement again. The quality is going down yet, the price is going up? hum... You can bet your ass they are making millions and using there past history of good quality to do it every single day. IMHO the internal quality of what they produce is going down as time passes. Some things do improve with technology and engineering but overall quality control in the main base line parts is starting to degrade as time passes.


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## Naked Arborist (Dec 7, 2012)

LowVolt said:


> I got a newb question for brad.
> 
> From all the reading it sounds like if you guys get a saw to port you dont really care what the cylinder looks like because you are going to work your magic and smooth everything out. If you ported one of these early cylinders to the exact specs that you did and oem kit, how did it not make the same amount of power as the oem kit? You guys massage these things to your standards to bring out all the ponies they got so what was the X factor that made the oem run so much better? Materials used?
> 
> Just wondering...



The short answer is, you can't work with what is not there. Try removing material from a place that did not have enough to begin with in terms of thickness or the "meat". You can not raise the floor or lower the roof without machine work on the base. That changes soo many other things, not going there right now. I'd like to see you get a nice gentle flowing radius from a short almost 90 degree angle. Then I have to explain the laws of air flow, eight degrees and wind shear with turbulence vs tumble. This is waaaay to hard to explain here.:frown:

Am I wrong for shutting up now???


----------



## Justsaws (Dec 7, 2012)

The 395 kits sure look tempting. Anybody seen any of the new 3120 kits?

BTW, I was told that there was a new AM 3120 kit availible, I have no idea if it is a new and improved kit or not but would like to know. Price was very nice compared to OEM. It was not a Meteor kit.


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## MCW (Dec 7, 2012)

reindeer said:


> You got a pic of one of those fancy 77cc 365/372BB kits? What do they usually do for compression?



Actually I haven't got any in stock to take photos of. The only photo is one I have from eBay which doesn't show the ports etc. The port quality etc is the same as the MS660 BB and Dolmar/Makita BB kits I posted photos of earlier. They have pulled between 155-165psi when checked on a number of saws. As mentioned though I only ever sold them with Caber rings and I've seen Caber rings on AM P&C kits lift compression by as much as 15psi over the supplied rings. Regardless of the quality of the kits I still supply Caber rings with most of the kits I sell. They are only USD$12 a set delivered so cheap insurance in my book. In fact some P&C manufacturers have stated that they CAN supply higher quality rings on request for around USD$5-8 extra per kit but I'm still a tad cautious...



Andyshine77 said:


> Y'all can buy all the Asian junk you want and make Communist countries rich, at the exact same time you're calling representatives in our own country Communists. At least Brad stands behind what he believes and doesn't sell his soul buying Walmart junk. Just my opinion, dislike it all you want, we're still free to think and do as we please.



Unfortunately Andy the major players are worse than we are for outsourcing business to China. Every single new Stihl sold is likely to have far more Chinese componentry on it than you or I realise...



Naked Arborist said:


> Think about that statement again. The quality is going down yet, the price is going up? hum... You can bet your ass they are making millions and using there past history of good quality to do it every single day. IMHO the internal quality of what they produce is going down as time passes. Some things do improve with technology and engineering but overall quality control in the main base line parts is starting to degrade as time passes.



That's right and I agree on the quality decline. My comment was based on the fact that few people actually buy original OEM Stihl piston and cylinder kits anyway due to their price so buying aftermarket piston and cylinders wouldn't hurt Stihl's bottom line one bit. Stihl can outsource components to Chinese manufacturers yet somehow people like you and me are evil and wrecking the world's economy if *WE* do it.



Justsaws said:


> The 395 kits sure look tempting. Anybody seen any of the new 3120 kits?
> 
> BTW, I was told that there was a new AM 3120 kit availible, I have no idea if it is a new and improved kit or not but would like to know. Price was very nice compared to OEM. It was not a Meteor kit.



There are a couple of 3120 kits available and one at least has been available for a few years. The key isn't to look for Husqvarna 3120XP kits but Partner K1250 kits. The K1250 is a concrete cutting saw but runs the same engine.
They are good kits and a few of the ones I supplied are in the Australian racing scene doing quite well with minimal development and as yet no machining. With some more work they should be able to match it with the OEM powered saws in the right hands.


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Had an old 660BB kit laying around so I thought I would post some pics


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## thomas1 (Dec 7, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Y'all can buy all the Asian junk you want and make Communist countries rich, at the exact same time you're calling representatives in our own country Communists. At least Brad stands behind what he believes and doesn't sell his soul buying Walmart junk. Just my opinion, dislike it all you want, we're still free to think and do as we please.



Evidently, you've never looked at Brad's lathe buying thread. I guess selling your soul doesn't include machine tools or measuring devices? :msp_rolleyes:


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Dec 7, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> volumes, shapes, weights and the materials come into play when you're trying to make power. Timing numbers are only one part of making a good running engine.
> 
> To think any of these kits are on par with top of the line OEM products, is nothing more than a pipe dream. You get what you pay for "most of the time". Know what you're buying and make your dissensions accordingly. If I want something that will more than likely last a long time, I buy OEM. If I'm looking to save money and cut corners aftermarket is an option. I guess??
> 
> Y'all can buy all the Asian junk you want and make Communist countries rich, at the exact same time you're calling representatives in our own country Communists. At least Brad stands behind what he believes and doesn't sell his soul buying Walmart junk. Just my opinion, dislike it all you want, we're still free to think and do as we please.



So what pistonand cylinders are not made ina communist, socialist Nation. not arguing just asking.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Dec 7, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> Think about that statement again. The quality is going down yet, the price is going up? hum... You can bet your ass they are making millions and using there past history of good quality to do it every single day. IMHO the internal quality of what they produce is going down as time passes. Some things do improve with technology and engineering but overall quality control in the main base line parts is starting to degrade as time passes.



Unfortunatly this is true in most if not all aspects of products.


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## ZeroJunk (Dec 7, 2012)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> So what pistonand cylinders are not made ina communist, socialist Nation. not arguing just asking.



Meteor, Episan, maybe others are made in Italy. Not sure about their politics, or Taiwans for that matter.
This country is headed full steam toward socialism. 
So, that argument is getting blurred.
But, it is hard to buy American to support your own when they don't make it.


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## albert (Dec 7, 2012)

I haven't seen a meteor kit early or current in person. I would bet the current ones are decent. Aftermarket kits are an option to get a fried saw running again and most do and perform at or very close to stock levels at a reasonable cost. 99.9% of end users could care less if the ports and castings are a work of art. Bradley called meteor kits junk based on an early production part, he also called newer stihl made cylinders junk, I haven't seen one case were the newer stihl, so called junk cylinders, produced less than rated power or failed earlier. I also never seen a aftermarket cylinder with a port way too wide. These kit were never designed to be modified. Use what you like, Brad and others seem to think there is enough of a market for cylinders with optimzed porting and immaculate castings at cost less than oem. What would it cost and how many would sell?


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## Mastermind (Dec 7, 2012)

albert said:


> I haven't seen a meteor kit early or current in person. I would bet the current ones are decent. Aftermarket kits are an option to get a fried saw running again and most do and perform at or very close to stock levels at a reasonable cost. 99.9% of end users could care less if the ports and castings are a work of art. Bradley called meteor kits junk based on an early production part, he also called newer stihl made cylinders junk, I haven't seen one case were the newer stihl, so called junk cylinders, produced less than rated power or failed earlier. I also never seen a aftermarket cylinder with a port way too wide. These kit were never designed to be modified. Use what you like, Brad and others seem to think there is enough of a market for cylinders with optimzed porting and immaculate castings at cost less than oem. What would it cost and how many would sell?



I get a lot of questions about the cylinders in my sig......most guys are wanting to see them in action after a few months before committing. The price on a completely modded kit is more than a new OEM top end......but less than a ported OEM top end. So the investment is substantial. 

I just ported my own 372 Meteor top end saw so I can compare the gains to an OEM setup. I'll also be reporting on durability. This saw is going into the hands of a firewood operation for a few weeks........if they don't kill it no one will.


----------



## 2dogs (Dec 7, 2012)

Just curious here, who makes Husqvarna OEM piston and cylinders?


----------



## SawTroll (Dec 7, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Just curious here, who makes Husqvarna OEM piston and cylinders?



Mostly Mahle and Gilardoni - KolbenSchmidt used to be another sourse, not sure it still is?


----------



## wigglesworth (Dec 7, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Just curious here, who makes Husqvarna OEM piston and cylinders?



Mahle.. That's pronounced "mmmm-uuh-huh-leigh"






Well, it might be pronounced that way. Looks French to me...


----------



## SawTroll (Dec 7, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Meteor, Episan, maybe others are made in Italy. Not sure about their politics, or Taiwans for that matter.
> This country is headed full steam toward socialism.
> So, that argument is getting blurred.
> But, it is hard to buy American to support your own when they don't make it.



Only if *made* means finishing a far east product, and having their (Italien) brand name on them. At least that seems to be how it is with cylinders....


----------



## ZeroJunk (Dec 7, 2012)

SawTroll said:


> Only if *made* means finishing a far east product, and having their (Italien) brand name on them. At least that seems to be how it is with cylinders....



Other than Tecomec for 028's I have just used their pistons. I am thinking the Tecomec kit is Italian, but it certaily may not be.


----------



## 2dogs (Dec 7, 2012)

SawTroll said:


> Mostly Mahle and Gilardoni - KolbenSchmidt used to be another sourse, not sure it still is?



Did Stihl or Husqvarna ever make their own P&Cs? How about magnesium parts, does some else cast them and then Stihl or Husqvarna does the finish machining? Was that the way with say Homelite, McC, Poulan and others?


----------



## SawTroll (Dec 7, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> Other than Tecomec for 028's I have just used their pistons. I am thinking the Tecomec kit is Italian, but it certaily may not be.



I know very little about Tecomec, and their selection of chainsaw kits are very limited.


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## SawTroll (Dec 7, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Did Stihl or Husqvarna ever make their own P&Cs? How about magnesium parts, does some else cast them and then Stihl or Husqvarna does the finish machining? Was that the way with say Homelite, McC, Poulan and others?




Moving onto "thinner ice" now, but here we go;

There was rumors that Stihl had started making their own cylinders (in the far east) when the quality dropped and they no longer said Mahle (or KS) on them - but I have never seen any evidence of it. Once there also was a rumor that some Husky cylinders were made "in-house", but those cylinders eventually turned out to be Gilardoni ones.

Regarding the cases, I believe they are made by Husky and Stihl themselves, until proven wrong (may happen at some point). With most other brands I have no idea how it was done, besides the obvious - the Pro saws that were made by Husqvarna likely had Husky made cases as well (Jonsered, Partner and a few Poulan Pro).


----------



## kevinm9558 (Dec 7, 2012)

*Mahle small engine manufacturing facilities*

_"Our filters and our piston and cylinder assemblies for small engines can cope easily with even this sort of challenge, because they are specially tuned to the requirements of our customers. They are produced in Germany, Austria, USA, Brazil, and China."_
taken from the Mahle website *HERE*

Take it for what it is; I'm not quoting anyone's post here, only because I'm not trying to "ruffle anyones feathers." :wink2: Just posting the info to help with some people's questions...


----------



## SawTroll (Dec 7, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> I'd way rather make the italians, japs, germans, or swedes rich vs the chinese, but it is up to you.



:agree2: 100% with that!


----------



## Justsaws (Dec 7, 2012)

MCW said:


> There are a couple of 3120 kits available and one at least has been available for a few years. The key isn't to look for Husqvarna 3120XP kits but Partner K1250 kits. The K1250 is a concrete cutting saw but runs the same engine.
> They are good kits and a few of the ones I supplied are in the Australian racing scene doing quite well with minimal development and as yet no machining. With some more work they should be able to match it with the OEM powered saws in the right hands.



Thanks for the feedback. Almost never see an actual 3120 chainsaw around here but still see quite a few of the multi-purpose or cutoff saws using that P/C, I would have no interest in putting all OEM $ into rebuilding one of them for myself but would not mind the AM $. Seen more than a few with the AM kits and the owners seem pleased, the first one that I saw looked pretty rough but it was really really inexpensive and if they have improved as much as many of the others then I would be pretty pleased, still only looking atthe +/- $100.00 range.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> I'd way rather make the italians, japs, germans, or swedes rich vs the chinese, but it is up to you.



I agree. Those economies are similar to ours and the have to manufacture with many of the same regulations as we do, like no child labor and so on.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 7, 2012)

MCW said:


> Unfortunately Andy the major players are worse than we are for outsourcing business to China. Every single new Stihl sold is likely to have far more Chinese componentry on it than you or I realise...



Sad, but more than not true.


----------



## Ductape (Dec 7, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I agree. Those economies are similar to ours and the have to manufacture with many of the same regulations as we do, like no child labor and so on.




And less communism............


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## Tzed250 (Dec 7, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Did Stihl or Husqvarna ever make their own P&Cs? How about magnesium parts, does some else cast them and then Stihl or Husqvarna does the finish machining? Was that the way with say Homelite, McC, Poulan and others?





SawTroll said:


> Moving onto "thinner ice" now, but here we go;
> 
> There was rumors that Stihl had started making their own cylinders (in the far east) when the quality dropped and they no longer said Mahle (or KS) on them - but I have never seen any evidence of it. Once there also was a rumor that some Husky cylinders were made "in-house", but those cylinders eventually turned out to be Gilardoni ones.
> 
> Regarding the cases, I believe they are made by Husky and Stihl themselves, until proven wrong (may happen at some point). With most other brands I have no idea how it was done, besides the obvious - the Pro saws that were made by Husqvarna likely had Husky made cases as well (Jonsered, Partner and a few Poulan Pro).




Stihl makes their own cases, as well as other cast magnesium bits. I believe Husqvarna makes theirs. 

Stihl also does magnesium casting under contract for other companies. 

A tidbit of information about Stihl. In the 1960's Andreas Stihl visited Robert Paxton McCulloch at the McCulloch factory in California. Stihl was impressed to say the least, as at the time McCulloch was the worlds largest chainsaw maker. The thing old Andreas was most envious of was McCulloch's ability to cast thin wall magnesium. Within a decade Stihl was the number one saw manufacturer in the world.


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## mifirewoodguy (Dec 7, 2012)

kevinm9558 said:


> View attachment 265754
> 
> Not trying to start a fight good sir, and believe me, I am as much of a red-blooded American as they come. I served our country PROUDLY for five years in the United States Marine Corps as my father did 40 years ago, and I am a six year member of UA Local 32 Plumbers and Pipefitters. I do not discount the United States of America, but her ways do sadden me.
> This misunderstanding just proves my point all the more.
> ...



Did you know that a Toyota has more American made parts on it than a Chevy Malibu? Sad Fact!


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## edisto (Dec 7, 2012)

mifirewoodguy said:


> Did you know that a Toyota has more American made parts on it than a Chevy Malibu? Sad Fact!



And, it's a palindrome.


----------



## Zombiechopper (Dec 7, 2012)

edisto said:


> And, it's a palindrome.



HA! yup it is. 

I had an 86 toyota something or other once. rear wheel inline six. It was like driving your couch around. nice suspension. But the windshield leaked


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## SawTroll (Dec 8, 2012)

mifirewoodguy said:


> Did you know that a Toyota has more American made parts on it than a Chevy Malibu? Sad Fact!



No surprice there, with the Toyotas that are sold in the US!


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

The new Meteor P&C Kit showed up this afternoon.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

You will notice a lot of layout lines on the cylinder. I did that to give an idea of the symetery of the ports.





The first thing I noticed is that the exhaust port shape hasn't been corrected at all.





While the combustion chamber itself looks good, the squish band has a reverse taper. This is the opposite of what you want. I put the piston against the top of the cylinder and spun it, marking the crown. The piston should only touch at the outer most edge of the cylinder.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

Again, the beveling is extremely poor. 















This transfer looks fine.





Then you have this one.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)




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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)




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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

Honestly, I don't see the improvements. The pics speak for themselves.

I do want to thank WatsonR for sending the kit for review, just as he said he would.


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## albert (Dec 8, 2012)

Put it on a saw the way it came. Will it run with or close to a stock saw? That's what matters.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

albert said:


> Put it on a saw the way it came. Will it run with or close to a stock saw? That's what matters.



Seriously? Is that all that matters? I disagree. This kit is really no different than the one I had before. I installed it and was going to donate it to replace the topend on a saw we raffled here. I wouldn't let it go out with that topend on it. It simply didn't run like a saw I wanted going out of my shop, representing my work. Sure, this topend will run, but there's a lot more to it than that. I see no point in installing this kit.


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## almondgt (Dec 8, 2012)

The pictures provided should be sent to Meteor for evaluation. The Meteor top end sure is no Mahle but is definately cost effective. In the pinch you gotta use what is available.............or affordable


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## parrisw (Dec 8, 2012)

By the look of the pics, it looks usable. Time to learn how to cut the squish Brad.

Honestly my sub $100 Chinese 372bb kit looks nicer. I can post pics in a few days when I get home.


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## Zombiechopper (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks Brad and WatsonR.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2012)

parrisw said:


> By the look of the pics, it looks usable. Time to learn how to cut the squish Brad.
> 
> Honestly my sub $100 Chinese 372bb kit looks nicer. I can post pics in a few days when I get home.



I've cut several squish bands. I'll stick with OEM. It's not worth the trouble messing with these IMHO.

The thing of it is, Meteor is putting their name and reputation on a product, putting a higher price than the competition, and then delivering a product like this. * I was really hoping to see some improvement.* Instead, I'm left more frustrated than ever. The only thing better about these kits is the piston and rings. The cylinder is no better than anything else I've seen come out of Taiwan or China. I guess I'll still have to continue advising finding a good used OEM cylinder and put a Meteor piston in it.


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## albert (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Seriously? Is that all that matters? I disagree. This kit is really no different than the one I had before. I installed it and was going to donate it to replace the topend on a saw we raffled here. I wouldn't let it go out with that topend on it. It simply didn't run like a saw I wanted going out of my shop, representing my work. Sure, this topend will run, but there's a lot more to it than that. I see no point in installing this kit.



I looks alot different then the other kit. How does it degree out? Why not run it, did you run the first one stock? Are these kits supposed to be a performance enhancement? HOW CAN YOU KNOCK IT WITHOUT RUNNING IT THE WAY IT CAME??? Give it a fair chance untouched.


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## albert (Dec 9, 2012)

I would think the kits would be great for a good porter. They cut the squish band, grind the hell out of all the ports ect. The beveling needs to be redone anyhow. I don't see the issue.


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## Justsaws (Dec 9, 2012)

Soooo, is it okay to start ripping on Italy as a country of crap workers and poor craftsman that sell subpar products that undermine the original patent holders.OEM sales and generally waste hard working American $. Cause, like they have had decades of experience doing this stuff and well that is a crap look'n cylinder that cost waaaaaaaaaaaaay to much compared to those other peoples product.

It is Italian maybe they forgot where they put the good cylinders, or maybe that cylinder was made on Friday through Wedsenday by new guy.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Honestly, I don't see the improvements. The pics speak for themselves.
> 
> I do want to thank WatsonR for sending the kit for review, just as he said he would.



Well Brad, come on now! the piston looked good.:msp_ohmy: I agree no change that I can see, honestly it looks worse than the kit I used on that 441.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

albert said:


> I looks alot different then the other kit. How does it degree out? Why not run it, did you run the first one stock? Are these kits supposed to be a performance enhancement? HOW CAN YOU KNOCK IT WITHOUT RUNNING IT THE WAY IT CAME??? Give it a fair chance untouched.



Are you for real? Did you see the same intake I did? What about the chamfers and casting flash? Sorry but the pics say all I need to know.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

albert said:


> I would think the kits would be great for a good porter. They cut the squish band, grind the hell out of all the ports ect. The beveling needs to be redone anyhow. I don't see the issue.



Which is what I've been saying this whole time. They all need work. Everyone of em. 

I happen to have an 066 meteor kit sittin here, that is lookin much better than the previous kits....

I should take some pics, huh?


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 9, 2012)

Get the camera out Wiggs!


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> Get the camera out Wiggs!



I tried. Aftermarket light is no where near as good as OEM light when trying to take pics of cylinders. 

First up is the piston. I highly doubt any aftermarket kit comes with as nice a piston and rings. I don't think I'll get any argument there...
















But it did come with these suckers. But as per AS statute BR.549, the rule of thumb with ANY aftermarket piston is to ditch the clips, and use OEM. 






More to come...


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

Couple outside shots. 






Exhaust port exit looks nice. 






Exhaust port is a bit square for my liking. That's an easy fix though. 






Intake inlet.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

PTO side transfer






Intake






Flywheel side transfer






Exhaust. I tried like crap to get a good pic with flash, but muh phones focus couldn't get itself lined out.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

And here is the single greatest improvement I've seen from the first gen to now. 

First gen. There is an actual groove at the top of the bore, all the way around, where the last 1/8" of bore was oversized. 






The latest one is plated all the way up, with the "black ring of death" only appearing because that's as far as their hone went up.


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## MCW (Dec 9, 2012)

parrisw said:


> By the look of the pics, it looks usable. Time to learn how to cut the squish Brad.
> 
> Honestly my sub $100 Chinese 372bb kit looks nicer. I can post pics in a few days when I get home.



Is that one of the kits I sent you Will? I can't remember whether I sent you one of the newer, nicer kits or only the early crappy one that hooked a ring. Well I definately know I sent you a crappy one


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2012)

Now that you've seen it, I'll write my "unbiased" review. 

Is this kit the prettiest I've seen? No. It still has "issues" that I, as an "enthusiast" would "improve" before I slapped it on and said go. The bevels are a bit much, the intake a little misshapen, and in full disclosure, the plating in this jug doesn't look as crisp or clean as the previous one, with some honing marks that concern me. I tried to get a pic of em, but the flash over exaggerated em, so i didn't post em. Is it usable as is? Probably so, and I will find out before altering it. 

Is it OEM? Absolutely not. The final "fit and finish" just isn't as nice, but it looks just as nice as every single aftermarket kit I've held in *my* hands,
but with a much, much nicer piston. What it is, is a viable option for someone who doesn't mind doing the fit and finish work himself, like most of us "hobby porters". 

Will they make as much power as OEM? I dunno, but I'll find out. 

Funny story about aftermarket cylinders. I had an 066 kit by an aftermarket manufacture named "New West". It looked to be a chrome bore, with no decomp and definetly not the prettiest thing I'd seen. Had some rather odd shaped ports too. Well, this guy I know, who won't be named, but goes by the name mastermind, didn't have a jug for the 066 buildoff I had in the spring, so I gave it to him, so he wouldn't be left out of the build. 

Well, he used that "crappy" cylinder, and proceeded to kick everyone down here's hiney. That Bastard.... 

[video=youtube;ulNVq-5uQts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulNVq-5uQts[/video]


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 9, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> PTO side transfer




Hmmm casting lines look similar to the 066 cylinder I posted a few pages back




Rudolf73 said:


> Had an old 660BB kit laying around so I thought I would post some pics


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## thomas1 (Dec 9, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> Now that you've seen it, I'll write my "unbiased" review.
> 
> Is this kit the prettiest I've seen? No. It still has "issues" that I, as an "enthusiast" would "improve" before I slapped it on and said go. The bevels are a bit much, the intake a little misshapen, and in full disclosure, the plating in this jug doesn't look as crisp or clean as the previous one, with some honing marks that concern me. I tried to get a pic of em, but the flash over exaggerated em, so i didn't post em. Is it usable as is? Probably so, and I will find out before altering it.
> 
> ...



You're not comparing apples to apples. Some builders can make a good saw better, some can make them great. Just because a builder charges the same amount as everyone else does not mean that you will get the same value for your money.

If someone buys a scored 372 what should they do?

Saw with trashed cylinder...........$200.00.................................$200.00
Porting.....................................$250.00.................................$250.00
New p/c...................................$300.00 OEM..........................$150.00 Aftermarket
______________________________________________________________________
Total....................................... $750.00.................................$600.00

I guess the question is, will a ported OEM cylinder run $150 better than a ported aftermarket cylinder? Never mind, Wiggs already posted that video.


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## albert (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Are you for real? Did you see the same intake I did? What about the chamfers and casting flash? Sorry but the pics say all I need to know.



I would run the kit as recieved. Then knock it if it didn't perform close to oem. The intakes look much different between the kits. Casting flash and beveling most likely make little difference is how it runs. Some think it has to be pristine looking to make power, I have seen and run cylinders that the porting looked like it was done by a blind guy with a chisel, but ran very strong. We all have seen beautiful looking porting, bevels, no flash, that ran worse than stock. Some of these pristine looking jobs blew on their first run. These kits cost way less than oe so if they run with or very close to oe and hold up, whats the problem? The kit was sent to Brad to check out, why would he not install it as recieved and degree it and run it? Brad seems like a guy who wouldn't use a vacuum stock, so what is he wishing for? He is going to grind and reshape all the ports anyhow.


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## lone wolf (Dec 9, 2012)

Hey guys my friend just brought his MS440 over it needs a cylinder and piston. The saw is not really worth putting a Stihl cylinder and piston so he tells me. So what aftermarket cylinder and piston would be recommended ?


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## thomas1 (Dec 9, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Hey guys my friend just brought his MS440 over it needs a cylinder and piston. The saw is not really worth putting a Stihl cylinder and piston so he tells me. So what aftermarket cylinder and piston would be recommended ?



Might as well throw it in the trash. Only way to get a decent aftermarket cylinder is to have it looked at by a competent person. If only there was such a man.....


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## DSS (Dec 9, 2012)

I see no reason why this kit won't run. Is it beautiful.....no. But 99% of the people who use these won't know a transfer tunnel from a flippy cap. They buy them because they can't afford the stupid prices for OEM. Why would you expect it to be perfect?

It needs to be put on a saw, exactly the way it came out of the box, and ran. That's the only way you're ever going to prove anything. Taking a bunch of pictures and saying 'oh, that's a piece of crap and I'm not using it', doesn't help. 

Or send it to Randy. Apparently he knows how to work with aftermarket stuff.


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## edisto (Dec 9, 2012)

albert said:


> I would run the kit as recieved. Then knock it if it didn't perform close to oem. The intakes look much different between the kits. Casting flash and beveling most likely make little difference is how it runs.



Bad beveling can dramatically affect the life of the saw. The rings pop in and out of the ports, and the beveling determines how violent of an event that will be.

I never put an old jug back on, or a replacement jug on without cleaning up the ports, and doing that removes enough to require regrinding the bevel. I didn't see anything in the pics that would scare me off. Not for the difference in price anyway, but then again, I have realistic expectations

What might be an issue then is what someone could expect who was just going bolt it on and run it. I did see some mildly scary things in that regard, but it really should be run...I have seen some ugly in cylinders pulled off of saws that ran well too.

What hasn't been mentioned is the one thing that a reasonable person might expect to account for the higher cost of Meteor cylinders over other aftermarket cylinders (apart from the pretty piston), and that is the plating. That will take a lot of saws running for a long time to evaluate properly, but I seem to recall hearing that the plating is something Meteor does to these cylinders in house?

Makes sense to me to pay a little extra for better plating.


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## parrisw (Dec 9, 2012)

MCW said:


> Is that one of the kits I sent you Will? I can't remember whether I sent you one of the newer, nicer kits or only the early crappy one that hooked a ring. Well I definately know I sent you a crappy one



Yes LOL, its a ring hooker with a tilted ex port.


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## edisto (Dec 9, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Yes LOL, its a ring hooker with a tilted ex port.



Knew a girl like that once...


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

Well using Brads pics I will do a side by side comparison. That may take a little while, watch for it.......

I must have some really messed up eyes because I see a hell of a difference. 

Now I really see an agenda. :msp_unsure:


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## SawTroll (Dec 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Well using Brads pics I will do a side by side comparison. That may take a little while, watch for it.......
> 
> I must have some really messed up eyes because I see a hell of a difference.
> 
> Now I really see an agenda. :msp_unsure:



Even if the kits are bought at about the same time, they may be from different production lots...


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/216916.htm#post3997167


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Well using Brads pics I will do a side by side comparison. That may take a little while, watch for it.......
> 
> I must have some really messed up eyes because I see a hell of a difference.
> 
> Now I really see an agenda. :msp_unsure:



What is this agenda is you keep referring to? The only agenda I have is to see the quality of these AM kits a LOT better than they are.

Are you guys satisfied with these kits? Perhapst you're not looking at it from my perspective. If you're just looking for the cheapest way to get a saw back in the woods, and are not concerned about quality and performance, then maybe. But that's not the kind of builds I'm doing.

My perception is that someone spending $250 for a port job, doesn't want to invest that in a sub par cylinder. Also, I'm not putting my name and reputation on them. Why would I choose to port an AM cylinder that takes a lot more work to make it right, and for the same money? It just doesn't make sense to me to use these on saw being built for performance, by a paying customer.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> What is this agenda is you keep referring to? The only agenda I have is to see the quality of these AM kits a LOT better than they are.
> 
> Are you guys satisfied with these kits? Perhapst you're not looking at it from my perspective. If you're just looking for the cheapest way to get a saw back in the woods, and are not concerned about quality and performance, then maybe. But that's not the kind of builds I'm doing.
> 
> My perception is that someone spending $250 for a port job, doesn't want to invest that in a sub par cylinder. Also, I'm not putting my name and reputation on them. Why would I choose to port an AM cylinder that takes a lot more work to make it right, and for the same money? It just doesn't make sense to me to use these on saw being built for performance, by a paying customer.



Brad you know I think the world of you. You are a true friend of mine. But for you to say that you see no improvement at all is hogwash and you are either blind or have an ulterior motive.


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## 8433jeff (Dec 9, 2012)

The improvement, to my eyes, which have been checked in the last month, is there, as well as some flaws.

I recently received PN 1127 020 1210 in the mail from a member here who stated (to the best of my memory, which ain't as good as my eyes), "OEM, bought for a customer that bought a different saw instead". Well, I might have too, at OEM prices. Its OEM, as stated, but it can't be run like it is. Well, maybe it could be. When I get a saw for it. But it won't be.

It looks fine, but as someone said, there will be some things done to it before it goes on a saw. No biggie, but I think it needs to be done. Done the same with many of mine, current and former, Big Name or also ran, on a teardown/repair, thats what we do here; tinker, and think its better because we did. Sometimes its plainly evident, sometimes, not so much, but we'll never know the other side after we tinker, because its not the same.

To say that OEM is wildly better because its OEM, in my opinion, is wrong.

It needs to be run as is. If you don't want to or can't test it, thats fine, pass it along if its OK with the supplier.

Most engine rebuilds are considered successful if the motor lasts half again as long. Most strive for again as long, at least 75% as long, but half is acceptable to most. I have heard that from more than one shop, from more than one mechanic, and in more than one field, from small engines to off road diesels. Most will tell you it is not do only to the quality of parts used, but the quality of the work done, and the attention paid to the components coming from the original motor. If a certain shop says that all we do is remove and replace, the price and their reputation will reflect that, as well as the shop that tries to get by on the cheap.

Both will have certain customers only once, and their lifetime ones also, as long as they are in business.

Choose wisely.


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

8433jeff said:


> The improvement, to my eyes, which have been checked in the last month, is there, as well as some flaws.
> 
> I recently received PN 1127 020 1210 in the mail from a member here who stated (to the best of my memory, which ain't as good as my eyes), "OEM, bought for a customer that bought a different saw instead". Well, I might have too, at OEM prices. Its OEM, as stated, but it can't be run like it is. Well, maybe it could be. When I get a saw for it. But it won't be.
> 
> ...



Good post Jeff. :msp_thumbup:


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## Genius. (Dec 9, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Hey guys my friend just brought his MS440 over it needs a cylinder and piston. The saw is not really worth putting a Stihl cylinder and piston so he tells me. So what aftermarket cylinder and piston would be recommended ?



I see you can get Forster cylinders for like $40, I'd use one of those:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Genius. (Dec 9, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> Might as well throw it in the trash. Only way to get a decent aftermarket cylinder is to have it looked at by a competent person. If only there was such a man.....



That'd be me buddy:msp_thumbup:


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## bucknfeller (Dec 9, 2012)

Genius. said:


> That'd be me buddy:msp_thumbup:



I've got one I'd like you to check out if you could make time in your busy schedule, it's for a Wild Thingy. I been thinking about getting it porked... oops, I mean ported.


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## Genius. (Dec 9, 2012)

bucknfeller said:


> I've got one I'd like you to check out if you could make time in your busy schedule, it's for a Wild Thingy. I been thinking about getting it porked... oops, I mean ported.



Well, send em over, I'll try to fit it in my busy schedule


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Just for the record, I have no agenda or hidden motive.



Now that's downright funny.

(we really need a rimshot emoticon for such occasions)


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## rms61moparman (Dec 9, 2012)

17 pages of banter and bulls hit and we are still divided.
I've tried to stay on the sidelines and watch the fray but I think I'll throw my 2 cents in here.

We need to remember that these are TOOLS!
As much as we would like to give them human personalities and traits, they are still just slugs of aluminum with steel rings that run up and down in a tube of aluminum with a plated coating inside.
I've seen some of the fastest saws at GTGs have port work that looked like it was done with a chisel and claw hammer! 

How good does a cylinder have to be to contain an explosion and drive a piston downward?
Are you putting one of these aftermarket cylinders on and engine that you are running in next years Indy 500?
Will a sawyer in the woods ever think about how the ports look in the saw he is running?
Will the wood stove CARE if the wood it burns was cut with a saw with an aftermarket or OEM cylinder?
It is a FACT that a waxed car will get better fuel mileage.
Will it be enough better to pay for the cost of the wax?

If the aftermarket cylinders are junk, why are there so many sitting on saws cutting wood every day?
OR
If the OEM cylinders are so great why are so many guys buying BRAND NEW chainsaws and shipping them to the porters for modification?

When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the individual customer and his needs and wants and FUNDS!
Not everyone can afford a $200.00 top end for an otherwise great saw, what are they supposed to do?
I have a few saws here running aftermarket cylinders and doing just fine...thank you!
I also have a couple here that are running top ends that other members THREW AWAY because they weren't good enough for them to run on one of their saws...............don't I Jeremy???:msp_rolleyes:



What I see here is.................much ado about nothing!
JMHO.


Mike


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 9, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> 17 pages of banter and bulls hit
> What I see here is.................much ado about nothing!
> JMHO.



Looks to me like a sour grapes retort by somebody who missed the Meteor train while other guys were hoppin' on to a proven product and beginning to offer it as an affordable alternative to OEM in their respective lines of business as saw builders and porters. Period.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 9, 2012)

I give my customers 3 choices when I repair their saws aka rebuild.

1. REDNECK saw repair that most of us do is cheapest using the used oem parts and just cleaning them up when possible.

2. Aftermarket parts that I would use on my own stuff.

3. New or like new used OEM

Guess which one most of them choose around me after explaining in detail the good and bads and cost of each.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2012)

Pogo, where do you come up with crap like that?


----------



## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Pogo, where do you come up with crap like that?



Psychology 101.


----------



## tlandrum (Dec 9, 2012)

PogoInTheWoods said:


> Psychology 101.



did you skip a lot of class?:hmm3grin2orange:


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 9, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> did you skip a lot of class?:hmm3grin2orange:



We need a rimshot emoticon, dammitt!


----------



## fastLeo151 (Dec 9, 2012)

In my very uneducated opinion, I think it would be a better option to have the am kit ported. If you choose the right builder to do the job, they will make sure its done properly and there are no problems with the product.


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## DSS (Dec 9, 2012)

Just for the record, I have a saw with a ching chong top end on it, which came from Matt (MCW). That saw is incredibly strong and works very very well.

So this argument that AM top ends don't make power doesn't fly here.


----------



## rms61moparman (Dec 9, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> 17 pages of banter and bulls hit and we are still divided.
> I've tried to stay on the sidelines and watch the fray but I think I'll throw my 2 cents in here.
> 
> We need to remember that these are TOOLS!
> ...





PogoInTheWoods said:


> Looks to me like a sour grapes retort by somebody who missed the Meteor train while other guys were hoppin' on to a proven product and beginning to offer it as an affordable alternative to OEM in their respective lines of business as saw builders and porters. Period.




Did you read any of my post other than what you quoted???

What part of "I have a few saws running aftermarket cylinders and doing just fine....thank you!"
Do you have a problem understanding???

I didn't miss the aftermarket train at ALL.
And I would most likely buy an aftermarket kit tomorrow if one were available for a toasted saw of mine.
I'm fully confident that I could clean up irregularities and casting flaws (if necessary) well enough to get a saw back in the woods and working.

Reading comprehension was never your strong suit was it???


Mike


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> Did you read any of my post other than what you quoted???
> 
> What part of "I have a few saws running aftermarket cylinders and doing just fine....thank you!"
> Do you have a problem understanding???
> ...



He was referring to Brad as the one with a case of sour grapes Mike. :msp_wink:


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## rms61moparman (Dec 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> He was referring to Brad as the one with a case of sour grapes Mike. :msp_wink:





He was quoting ME!


Mike


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## DSS (Dec 9, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> Did you read any of my post other than what you quoted???
> 
> What part of "I have a few saws running aftermarket cylinders and doing just fine....thank you!"
> Do you have a problem understanding???
> ...





Mastermind said:


> He was referring to Brad as the one with a case of sour grapes Mike. :msp_wink:



Yeah, he wasn't talking about you Mike. Have some pie.:msp_biggrin:


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## rms61moparman (Dec 9, 2012)

DSS said:


> Yeah, he wasn't talking about you Mike. Have some pie.:msp_biggrin:





Did that ice cream come from your milk?????
Somehow that would just seem .....wrong!:msp_scared:


Mike


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 9, 2012)

I have AFM cyl's out there too. I just inspect them before installing. If they pass they go on.

Even used some of the AFM rings and they are holding up to. Tried the circlips on some and it hasnt come back to bite me in the azz yet. 

I have a BB372 piston with it's AFM rings right now in a poulan cylinder. One before they started coating black stuff on them. Nice looking piston IMO. Been running her hard and she was at the Poulan GTG.


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## watsonr (Dec 9, 2012)

WOW ..... I go to sea an a US Navy warship for a couple days and come back here to see all the HUB-BUB.. expecting to see something, what I do see is.... an UN-complete comparison.

I see pictures of a cylinder, lines drawn on the thing just like a guy about to do a port job would do.. I think? I'm not a builder, I don't offer ported saws and wouldn't know what to do, to even begin to do a job like Randy, Brad, or Jeremy would do. That's what they get paid to do...... however.

Page 3, post #44


watsonr said:


> Brad, contact me for an MS460 kit. The kit will come factory direct to your door and I'll never touch it before it arrives. In return, you do a full report including all the specs of timing and compression, timed cuts and all. Meteor kit against stock....If you don't like it, I'll pay for it, I'll even pay the shipping. If its anything like the 372 kit, you get a winner, a great product of good quality at a good price.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Frank



That was the deal. Draw all the lines you want, tell me the width is wrong, the bevel isn't perfect, chamber is reversed, the piston should NEVER touch the crown (if it does, we have a problem), the ports don't match..... yada, yada yada...

I don't care what you do to make it acceptable for you to be proud of before it leaves your shop.... and have your name on it... That's why you get paid to PORT saws, I get paid to sell cylinders!

I did my part, sent a kit to your door for comparison, direct from the factory without interference what-so-ever...... It's not done yet.....

Did you put the saw together to measure squish? Does the timing of that cylinder compare to OEM? Does the saw make good compression? Does the saw run comparable to a stock saw? Did you time the cuts to compare a stock OEM saw to this cylinder and piston? I know you mentioned that you didn't have a stock OEM for comparison, you have done other threads with documents to support the before timing numbers to use. You do have old video comparing stock to your ported timed cut videos to use.... and could probably make marks on an OEM cylinder and tear it apart just like you did with this one!



blsnelling said:


> Seriously? Is that all that matters? I disagree. This kit is really no different than the one I had before. I installed it and was going to donate it to replace the topend on a saw we raffled here. I wouldn't let it go out with that topend on it. It simply didn't run like a saw I wanted going out of my shop, representing my work. Sure, this topend will run, but there's a lot more to it than that. I see no point in installing this kit.



This cylinder won't leave your shop with your name on it... OK , You don't like the way it looks and you don't like the way an OEM cylinder is either... but you never timed it, installed it, ran it, tested it.... You drew some lines on it and gave your opinion of what it should be.... it's not done yet Brad. I never asked for you to bless off on this kit, I never asked for you to put your name on it, I never asked for you to sell the kits or anything of that nature... just a test and an evaluation.



blsnelling said:


> Seriously? Is that all that matters? I disagree. This kit is really no different than the one I had before. I installed it and was going to donate it to replace the topend on a saw we raffled here. I wouldn't let it go out with that topend on it. It simply didn't run like a saw I wanted going out of my shop, representing my work. Sure, this topend will run, but there's a lot more to it than that. I see no point in installing this kit.



It's what this thread is about... isn't it?? Seriously, it does matter. It matters to all the guys who don't port there own saws, to the guys who can't afford one of your port jobs, the guys who need to save a couple bucks to get the job done
without spending every last cent they scraped together to buy a OEM cylinder.



blsnelling said:


> I see no point in installing this kit.



Did the kit perform close to the OEM part.... we may never know now will we... That Sir, would be for the greater good of this community! :msp_wink: 

Thank you for your time.

Randy Watson


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## 8433jeff (Dec 9, 2012)

The poll question is loaded. On the AM side. If it takes 30 min longer to port, I don't care. I still spend $250.

If I was the porter, I may care.

Course the pie I eat doesn't look like it was made by Paula Dean either, but its still damn tasty.


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## indiansprings (Dec 9, 2012)

If the cylinder was re-worked by Mastermind and he gave it the green light, I would have no issue bolting it on a saw. As others have stated the vast majority of saw users only care if the saw will run and cut wood they could care less what brand is stamped on the cylinder only, they only care that it runs and cuts the wood that keeps their family warm. I'd say over 50% of our customers could not afford oem cylinders to rebuild their saws, if fact since I've been involved with the dealership we've only ordered one replacement oem cylinder and piston, for a pristine 036 Pro that the owner had straight gassed, I'm guessing the saw had less than twenty hours total run time, truly a like new saw. We've only sold a handfull of used pistons and jugs. The majority just by a used saw as cheap as they can or by a 290. I've recommed a site sponsor to those who can't afford any other option, the 1% of the people who represent AS don't realize who the real saw users are or how they are hurting economically. Yes, the quality could and should be improved as much as possible, but for those who just need firewood to provide for their family as long as they bolt up and run and give the saw a decent service life how good is good enough?
I also see the market for the units that Randy ports and blueprints, it gives the guys who can't afford 250.00 plus shipping and downtime a nice option, they can order a kit for a fraction of the price, install it themselves and go, I have no doubt Randy has the integrity to make sure they are top notch before he puts his name on them.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2012)

watsonr said:


> WOW ..... I go to sea an a US Navy warship for a couple days and come back here to see all the HUB-BUB.. expecting to see something, what I do see is.... an UN-complete comparison.
> 
> I see pictures of a cylinder, lines drawn on the thing just like a guy about to do a port job would do.. I think? I'm not a builder, I don't offer ported saws and wouldn't know what to do, to even begin to do a job like Randy, Brad, or Jeremy would do. That's what they get paid to do...... however.
> 
> ...



A deal's a deal. I'll make it happen. I don't have any stock 460 cylinders here, but my Dad does have a bone stock 046, other than a modded muffler. I'll use the same muffler on both.

Again, the difference here lies in our perspectives. From your perspective, if it runs and makes decent power, it's all good. That would be the case for 99.9% of the users out there. From that perspective, why make them any better. They're good enough as is. From my perspective, it's a whole different ball game. I'm admittedly a 1%er

It may take a little time to make it happen, but I will do the stock comparison. That's only fair to your perspective.


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## stihl sawing (Dec 9, 2012)

Geez guys, These threads have turned into a "who's the better builder thread" Use the one you like but please don't bash the other guy cause he does something different that you don't. Let's not make this a who's better thread, Nothing wrong with competition but the insults is not part of competing.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> If the cylinder was re-worked by Mastermind and he gave it the green light, I would have no issue bolting it on a saw. As others have stated the vast majority of saw users only care if the saw will run and cut wood they could care less what brand is stamped on the cylinder only, they only care that it runs and cuts the wood that keeps their family warm. I'd say over 50% of our customers could not afford oem cylinders to rebuild their saws, if fact since I've been involved with the dealership we've only ordered one replacement oem cylinder and piston, for a pristine 036 Pro that the owner had straight gassed, I'm guessing the saw had less than twenty hours total run time, truly a like new saw. We've only sold a handfull of used pistons and jugs. The majority just by a used saw as cheap as they can or by a 290. I've recommed a site sponsor to those who can't afford any other option, the 1% of the people who represent AS don't realize who the real saw users are or how they are hurting economically. Yes, the quality could and should be improved as much as possible, but for those who just need firewood to provide for their family as long as they bolt up and run and give the saw a decent service life how good is good enough?
> I also see the market for the units that Randy ports and blueprints, it gives the guys who can't afford 250.00 plus shipping and downtime a nice option, they can order a kit for a fraction of the price, install it themselves and go, I have no doubt Randy has the integrity to make sure they are top notch before he puts his name on them.



I agree with you entirely! I would trust *ANYTHING *coming out of Randy's shop. Any work that I don't want, which is all of it right now, gets referred to Randy. In my extraverted over reacting way, I think it's come across that I'm attacking Randy. Nothing could be further from the truth. *Randy, I'm sorry if it has come across that way*.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

albert said:


> I would run the kit as recieved. Then knock it if it didn't perform close to oem. The intakes look much different between the kits. Casting flash and beveling most likely make little difference is how it runs. Some think it has to be pristine looking to make power, I have seen and run cylinders that the porting looked like it was done by a blind guy with a chisel, but ran very strong. We all have seen beautiful looking porting, bevels, no flash, that ran worse than stock. Some of these pristine looking jobs blew on their first run. These kits cost way less than oe so if they run with or very close to oe and hold up, whats the problem? The kit was sent to Brad to check out, why would he not install it as recieved and degree it and run it? Brad seems like a guy who wouldn't use a vacuum stock, so what is he wishing for? He is going to grind and reshape all the ports anyhow.



I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answering the question.:msp_biggrin: 

What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself. 

The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.


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## FATGUY (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? *If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answer the question.*:msp_biggrin:
> 
> What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.
> 
> The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.



:taped:


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## edisto (Dec 9, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> :taped:



C'mon Nik. You know he's right...


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## rms61moparman (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answer the question.:msp_biggrin:
> 
> What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.
> 
> The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.






How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?

The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
The aftermarket kits that I've been buying are around $95.00.

If the "lesser fit and finish but equal in operation" car is ~ 45% the cost of the new "super fit and finish" cars, the answer is probably going to be yes, I would buy the cheaper model.

But of course, I drive Dodges so obviously the looks of a vehicle are a "way down the list" second to it being strong and reliable, with low repair costs!!!:msp_biggrin:


Mike


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## watsonr (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> A deal's a deal. I'll make it happen. I don't have any stock 460 cylinders here, but my Dad does have a bone stock 046, other than a modded muffler. I'll use the same muffler on both.
> 
> Again, the difference here lies in our perspectives. From your perspective, if it runs and makes decent power, it's all good. That would be the case for 99.9% of the users out there. From that perspective, why make them any better. They're good enough as is. From my perspective, it's a whole different ball game. I'm admittedly a 1%er
> 
> It may take a little time to make it happen, but I will do the stock comparison. That's only fair to your perspective.



And exactly the point of this.

You said "in your opinion" that no aftermarket part is good enough without modification, you said that no OEM part is good enough without modification..... a saws builders perspective.

I'm saying that there are alternatives to OEM parts and prices..... a sellers perspective.

Aftermarket quality has come a long way since someone has done a review and that it was time for another review with an open mind. Competition breeds improvement, change, better products and potentially a lower priced item. It also keeps OEM from becoming lazy! That's all I'm offering... another choice.

I would have never came on here and said "Not to buy a product because I don't endorse it" such as you did. I would have never felt like it was my responsibility to take anything away from you for the better good of others. Whether you finish the test or not is up to you.... 

Randy


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## PogoInTheWoods (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Any work that I don't want, which is all of it right now, gets referred to Randy.



Read and weep, TreeMonkey.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
> How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?
> 
> The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
> ...



That's the issue, when you see low quality you normally get low quality and unreliability along with it. If you have to replace the cheap part regularly, how cheap really is the part?


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2012)

watsonr said:


> I would have never came on here and said "Not to buy a product because I don't endorse it" such as you did. I would have never felt like it was my responsibility to take anything away from you for the better good of others. Whether you finish the test or not is up to you....
> 
> Randy



Yes, I could have, and should have, said it a lot better. I got a little carried away. However, I still stand by my opinion that the quality can be, and should be, much better. There's no reason they couldn't be producing factory made performance cylinders. A tweak in width here, and a tweak in port timing here, and you have yourself a factory ported cylinder. Of course, that's just a builders dream. You get the idea though. 

Three things would make this kit way better. 
1. First of all, get that squish band with the correct taper on it. I can and have done squish band mods, but I don't want to have to. A popup is still a viable option in many cases. 
2. Fix the exhaust port shape.
3. Improve the port beveling.


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## watsonr (Dec 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Yes, I could have, and should have, said it a lot better. I got a little carried away. However, I still stand by my opinion that the quality can be, and should be, much better. There's no reason they couldn't be producing factory made performance cylinders. A tweak in width here, and a tweak in port timing here, and you have yourself a factory ported cylinder. Of course, that's just a builders dream. You get the idea though.
> 
> Three things would make this kit way better.
> 1. First of all, get that squish band with the correct taper on it. I can and have done squish band mods, but I don't want to have to. A popup is still a viable option in many cases.
> ...



You have my word, I'll tell them to tighten up!


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## Wild Knight (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> That's the issue, when you see low quality you normally get low quality and unreliability along with it. If you have to replace the cheap part regularly, how cheap really is the part?



Granted, I missed a few pages, but has it been established that reliability is a problem? Another post in another thread said that after 100+ AM jugs sold, there has not been a single complaint. Is a point yet to be estaished being debated? Brad said he would finish the build and comparison. Let the proof be in the pudding.


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## Wild Knight (Dec 9, 2012)

edisto said:


> C'mon Nik. You know he's right...



He is a machinist and likes working with tools and fixing stuff. Of _course_ he is a Chevy guy :taped:


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wild Knight said:


> Granted, I missed a few pages, but has it been established that reliability is a problem? Another post in another thread said that after 100+ AM jugs sold, there has not been a single complaint. Is a point yet to be estaished being debated? Brad said he would finish the build and comparison. Let the proof be in the pudding.



Early on the kits liked to come apart. I've also see design problems that I believe will lead to issues down the road. What others say and what one's experienced, is all that matters to me. What I've seen and experienced with these kits has been both good and not so good. I'd never rely on any of the aftermarket top ends, but that's just me. 

Lets look at this in a different way. Take an oem bearing and a aftermarket bearing. Under normal working conditions both bearings may do the same job and both may last a good long while. Now lets take things and change the setting. Say both bearings are overheated a bit, nothing crazy just a little extra heat. Now we start to see the metal in the aftermarket bearing expand abnormally, do to the fact the metal in the bearing is inferior compared to the OEM bearing. Which one has a better chance of failing?


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## albert (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I can't agree with this at all. Say you go to buy a new car. The finders are misaligned, the finish has orange peel, and the interior rattles like a tin can filled with a bucks worth of pennies, but it drives fine a will get you from point A to point B. Would you still buy the car? If you're a Chevy guy please refrain from answering the question.:msp_biggrin:
> 
> What you see on the surface is a good indicator of what's on the inside, and the quality of materials used. I've seen all I need to know about these kits, from porosity in the castings, to contamination in the materiel itself.
> 
> The kits are a CHEAP option nothing more.



Are you for real?? What does that have to do with a cylinder. The kit should have been run, period. I saw the difference right away in the new kit pics and said so. You gave me the "are you for real". If the car your talking about was half price, sure I'd buy it and be happy. Lot's of kits out there, and no post's about failures or poor performance. Hell it may or may not out run a oe kit, who knows, it wasn't given a chance. If the bore and plating are good and the ports are cast in the right area, any porter thats worth his salt should have no problem making good power out of one


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## Wild Knight (Dec 9, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Early on the kits liked to come apart. I've also see design problems that I believe will lead to issues down the road. What others say and what one's experienced, is all that matters to me. What I've seen and experienced with these kits has been both good and not so good. I'd never rely on any of the aftermarket top ends, but that's just me.
> 
> Lets look at this in a different way. Take an oem bearing and a aftermarket bearing. Under normal working conditions both bearings may do the same job and both may last a good long while. Now lets take things and change the setting. Say both bearings are overheated a bit, nothing crazy just a little extra heat. Now we start to see the metal in the aftermarket bearing expand abnormally, do to the fact the metal in the bearing is inferior compared to the OEM bearing. Which one has a better chance of failing?


I don't think machining marks and alloys of the metal of the components is comparing apples to apples. This thread was started based on photographs of beveling and port shape, right? Brad may be 100% correct; he has a lot of experience building saws. I'm just saying lets see a little more substance before we continue the debate.


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## Trx250r180 (Dec 9, 2012)

What kind of oil works best in these kits ?


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## Mastermind (Dec 9, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> What kind of oil works best in these kits ?



Duh.......aftermarket Gary Goo.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

albert said:


> Are you for real?? What does that have to do with a cylinder.



The composition of the metal. I used bearings as an example. 

I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.

Like I said, if you have no other option and you know how to install them correctly, sure give one a try. If you have the means there's on decision, go with oem. When it comes to porting one of these kits, I'd give it a try if it were free, but I rather run a stock oem top end on a work saw. Why? because I know it will last.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wild Knight said:


> I don't think machining marks and alloys of the metal of the components is comparing apples to apples. This thread was started based on photographs of beveling and port shape, right? Brad may be 100% correct; he has a lot of experience building saws. I'm just saying lets see a little more substance before we continue the debate.



I've seen parts fail, I believe part of the cause was do to poor quality materials. When you compound both issues the answer "to me" is clear.


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## parrisw (Dec 9, 2012)

DSS said:


> Just for the record, I have a saw with a ching chong top end on it, which came from Matt (MCW). That saw is incredibly strong and works very very well.
> 
> So this argument that AM top ends don't make power doesn't fly here.



Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.



The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:


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## albert (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> The composition of the metal. I used bearings as an example.
> 
> I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.
> 
> Like I said, if you have no other option and you know how to install them correctly, sure give one a try. If you have the means there's on decision, go with oem. When it comes to porting one of these kits, I'd give it a try if it were free, but I rather run a stock oem top end on a work saw. Why? because I know it will last.



I don't sell any parts. But too much bs and flip flopping without giving them a fair shake. Truth is money is real tight for many now, and agreeing to do a fair eval on a kit and giving it a quick look and saying still junk is not what most were looking for, particulary the supplier of the kit and a guy that is modding them. Everyone has an opinion, which is fine, but be responsible about it. Many questions were not answered earlier on and some were answered with a condescending attitude.


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## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:



So far that was the best kit I've gotten from him.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

albert said:


> I don't sell any parts. But too much bs and flip flopping without giving them a fair shake. Truth is money is real tight for many now, and agreeing to do a fair eval on a kit and giving it a quick look and saying still junk is not what most were looking for, particulary the supplier of the kit and a guy that is modding them. Everyone has an opinion, which is fine, but be responsible about it. Many questions were not answered earlier on and some were answered with a condescending attitude.



Sorry if I sounded condescending, I do that from time to time. Anyway maybe you want them to be better than they really are, I understand that. Not so long ago I actually had a more positive attitude about these kits, but the more and more I worked with them, the more my attitude changed for the negative. On top of that I'm increasingly frustrated with all of the Asian garbage we're forced to buy these days, it's really getting under my skin.


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## albert (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Sorry if I sounded condescending, I do that from time to time. Anyway maybe you want them to be better than they really are, I understand that. Not so long ago I actually had a more positive attitude about these kits, but the more and more I worked with them, the more my attitude changed for the negative. On top of that I'm increasingly frustrated with all of the Asian garbage we're forced to buy these days, it's really getting under my skin.



Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

albert said:


> Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.



Probably not, but it sure would be nice.


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## LowVolt (Dec 10, 2012)

albert said:


> Thanks but it wasn't you I refered to. I agree about alot of the asian stuff. But realistically, an aftermarket kit that is equal to or better than oe at this price aint gonna happen.



And why is that? From the reading it sounds like they got the piston spot on. What gives with cylinder production?


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## bcorradi (Dec 10, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> How much does the "lesser" build quality car cost???
> How does it compare to a new Ford XXXX?
> 
> The OEM top end kits for MOST average saws are around $200.00.
> ...



Your completely right if you are a homeowner joe you can probably get enough longevity in one of those aftermarket kits that u wouldn't notice any lack of quality in the quality. I guess your right at home with dodge so I see how u don't mind AM P&C kits. My best buddy was a master mopar mechanic for 22 years and loved dodge...but he can't even stomach buying one anymore. I can't remember what era of dodge minivan, but he could change the tranny in 45 mins because of how many times he had to do it. You don't live in as cold of a climate as us so u may not have seen all the tranny issues we have with dodges, but their trucks that came out in 94' were no better. If u like dodge trucks and are happy with them you will be very happy with subordinate chainsaw p&c's too.


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## MCW (Dec 10, 2012)

Unfortunately I think this has turned into an Aftermarket vs. OEM thread.
It should actually be a "Crappy Quality Aftermarket vs. OEM thread". I think we can all agree that a good aftermarket kit has the potential to be a lot better than a crap OEM kit as many of us have seen.
The funny thing is that some builders have been quite happy to port and modify crappy OEM cylinders and get good results yet still tarnish aftermarket with the same old brush. With some of the comments I actually think it is more anti Chinese than anti aftermarket.
As mentioned if you are tidying up ports and doing some machining etc then there is absolutely no reason why a good quality aftermarket kit shouldn't compete with an OEM kit from a power and performance point of view. Yes there may be some squish and compression concerns with many aftermarket kits but those with their butts firmly planted on the OEM side of the fence seem to forget that many new Stihls and Huskys are coming with about 150psi from the factory anyway - hardly what you would call high compression.
if the same scrutiny was placed on OEM kits I think most of us would get a wise little surprise up our arses. I think we should also look around at the amount of OEM kits that have failed after porting and rebuilding. 9 times out of 10 it is not the fault of the kit but the way a circlip was installed or the fact exhaust ports were made too wide. I can't help but think if the same thing happened on an aftermarket kit the fingers would first be pointed at the kit and not the builder who quite simply stuffed it up.

There is however one thing that people are overlooking with aftermarket kits which I think is quite possibly the most important aspect and that is the lifespan of the Nikasil plating. I don't think anybody here can say that a Mahle P&C wouldn't be good for at least 1000 hours if looked after. I have seen early generation MS660 BB kits come back from test saws with only 100 or so hours on it and the plating is already completely shot.
These same kits also exhibited unusual ring wear indicating the bore wasn't square as well.
I can also say that a few of the 395XP big bore kits I have sold have gone into full time firewood cutter's saws and have many 100's (maybe 1000's?) of hours on them without a hitch. These guys have some sort of freaky genetic ability to wreck saws within minutes so that says something.

I do however think that the anti aftermarket aspect of this thread has turned into a bit of a witch hunt which has blanketed all AM kits as being crap.
If I had the time or even gave half an arse I could go down my shed now and take photos of every single aftermarket P&C I have simply to show that if you keep on top of your suppliers enforcing that you won't accept garbage then the end result will be better quality kits being supplied.

The fact of the matter is that when dealing with the Chinese you simply *HAVE* to check every kit. If you don't complain and constantly keep on them then trust me the only result will be a decline in quality and a lot of time spent replacing kits (which costs *YOU* money as you *WILL* not get a refund from the Chinese!). The Chinese will start to substitute lower quality components the second you let your guard down - it has happened to me. I have learnt...

For the record good power can be gotten out of the better quality aftermarket kits. This is already being achieved on the quiet in the Australian racing scene. Another factor is the price - although I don't race it is for the good of the sport to make it affordable and get as many people involved as we can. The top runners are likely to always be running OEM as cost is generally not a factor and if money is no object then everybody would prefer to run Mahle etc. Also remember that in Australia an OEM kit and labour to fit it is a similar cost to you guys in the states buying the whole damn saw!
If you guys had to pay for OEM what we do in Australia you'd all be on the aftermarket bandwagon. The aftermarket kits I have sold at good prices would have kept many guys warm for winter when otherwise they wouldn't have been able to afford to get their saw fixed.

I can't find the photo now or even remember the customer's name but he had a 372XP that he straight gassed. He bought one of my big bore kits on eBay and emailed me about 12 months later with a photo of a big tree he was cutting up for firewood while his son was helping load the split wood. He actually thanked me 12 months later and said the saw was still running like new. Certainly beats getting abused 

Also remember to replace the rings in any aftermarket kit if you want to ensure it is going to last. The one thing that we *CAN* all agree on is that the supplied rings are crap


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## watsonr (Dec 10, 2012)

MCW said:


> Unfortunately I think this has turned into an Aftermarket vs. OEM thread.
> It should actually be a "Crappy Quality Aftermarket vs. OEM thread". I think we can all agree that a good aftermarket kit has the potential to be a lot better than a crap OEM kit as many of us have seen.
> The funny thing is that some builders have been quite happy to port and modify crappy OEM cylinders and get good results yet still tarnish aftermarket with the same old brush. With some of the comments I actually think it is more anti Chinese than anti aftermarket.
> As mentioned if you are tidying up ports and doing some machining etc then there is absolutely no reason why a good quality aftermarket kit shouldn't compete with an OEM kit from a power and performance point of view. Yes there may be some squish and compression concerns with many aftermarket kits but those with their butts firmly planted on the OEM side of the fence seem to forget that many new Stihls and Huskys are coming with about 150psi from the factory anyway - hardly what you would call high compression.
> ...



WOW.... I thought he called out to not buy Meteor kits.. because I push aftermarket kits to unsuspecting buyers that deserved to hear the truth.. and felt like it needed a response being the new site sponsor selling said kits and at a darn good price!

I agree, aftermarket kits are what they are, a viable option for those looking for that option. Every product has a good and bad side, not just aftermarket as is seemingly starting to be portrayed here..... I sell aftermarket kits the same as you. Thanks for that insight.... Great post!

The pistons come with Caber rings, they are pretty good, did you mean the clips to hold the pin on? Those are crap!


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## MCW (Dec 10, 2012)

watsonr said:


> WOW.... I thought he called out to not buy Meteor kits.. because I push aftermarket kits to unsuspecting buyers that deserved to hear the truth.. and felt like it needed a response being the new site sponsor selling said kits and at a darn good price!
> 
> I agree, aftermarket kits are what they are, a viable option for those looking for that option. Every product has a good and bad side, not just aftermarket as is seemingly starting to be portrayed here..... I sell aftermarket kits the same as you. Thanks for that insight.... Great post!
> 
> The pistons come with Caber rings, they are pretty good, did you mean the clips to hold the pin on? Those are crap!



I've been reading all of the comments made about aftermarket kits in general in a few recent threads on the topic as many of the replies and comments have stated that all of the aftermarket kits need work. That is absolute crap and if they are saying that then they haven't been looking at the right kits or more than likely have their blinkers on - I have sold well over 100 kits to people that have done exactly the "Plug And Play" routine with no problems and absolutely no complaints. A number of these are professional users including numerous MS260 44.7mm kits to Australian arborists. Despite selling over 100 kits around 30 extras went out for free to other AS members to test on saw models that I didn't have access to. Some of these kits did have issues such as the early gen MS660BB kits and the early 372XP BB kits. I worked very closely with my supplier to ensure that a different manufacturer was found. Sure I ended up paying an extra USD$10 a kit but it was well worth it and these models are now some of the nicest AM kits you'll see.
I did have one MS460 BB kit sold on eBay that hooked a ring and I replaced that immediately - it was one that got past my "Quality Control" program with a dodgey exhaust bevel (I don't sell those kits anymore). 
As far as my Caber ring comments I meant the general aftermarket kits like mine, not necessarily Meteor. If the Meteors come with Cabers then that is definately a positive over other aftermarket P&C's 
There are a number of good saw builders on AS who aren't sponsors and don't post threads every 5 minutes on their work that are building some pretty mean and reliable saws with aftermarket top ends - not necessarily supplied by me either. A number of them are Bailey's kits. I won't name them here but I'm sure they'll chime in if they want to.
I don't blame you for replying like you did watsonr as a certain thread conveniently appeared within a few minutes of yourself and Mastermind starting to advertise the Meteor kits.

I think a few people are hoping that if you throw enough mud it will stick but I'm here to wipe some of that mud off. The old "supporting the Chinese" mentality also doesn't stack up considering the amount of Chinese made OEM gear now coming already fitted to big name saws. Has anybody noticed that the price of a new Stihl saw didn't drop despite the P&C not having Mahle stamped on the side any more and the fact the Zama carb has China printed all over it? Anybody know where the MS170's are made now? I hate the amount of Chinese gear flooding the world too but last time I checked aftermarket P&C's weren't ever made in the US or Australia...


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## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.



What if your a guy who doesn't sell these kits, but competes with guys that do, does that make your opinion biased? Seems you'd have a vested interested in the competition not selling many of these.


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

thomas1 said:


> What if your a guy who doesn't sell these kits, but competes with guys that do, does that make your opinion biased? Seems you'd have a vested interested in the competition not selling many of these.



You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!


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## MCW (Dec 10, 2012)

DSS said:


> Just for the record, I have a saw with a ching chong top end on it, which came from Matt (MCW). That saw is incredibly strong and works very very well.
> 
> So this argument that AM top ends don't make power doesn't fly here.





parrisw said:


> Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.



Hey Will I can't remember which top end he bought either 



Andyshine77 said:


> The BB7900 kit Matt sent me looked nice, and he said it ran pretty strong. That reminds me I still have some work to do on that one.:msp_wink:



That was already a strong runner out of the box Andy - no need to stick it on a lathe or hit it with a Dremel. If it makes you feel better it was right up there with the first 7900 Mahle top end that Brad ported for me.



parrisw said:


> So far that was the best kit I've gotten from him.



And then you had to go and wreck it by porting it


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## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!



BS, BS.

Seems you have a hard time identifying the truth. Luckily, it's not that hard for most people to see.


----------



## MCW (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.





blsnelling said:


> You're way off base there Thomas. Randy and I do not compete for work, and that's a fact. Quite the opposite is true. Of course, when you're a troll only looking to stir the pot, you don't care about the truth!



I don't think that Thomas is a troll Brad. I think he was referring to Andy's post about aftermarket P&C sellers being biased with their comments and vice versa. 
If somebody heaps 100% praise on aftermarket P&C's does that make them a less reliable source of information than somebody who has nothing but crap to lay on them?

At least I'd like to think I'm honest enough to have made comments supporting both sides of the argument. I have some really nice kits here but have also had models that I will never touch again (MS460 BB for example). There wasn't anything majorly wrong with these kits from a porter's point of view but they could not be simply bolted on without potentially hooking rings and snapping the top out of the piston.

Maybe have a look at the 6401BB kit that Andy has and get back to me. I bet you'll be able to find something wrong with it because you would _set out_ to find something wrong with it. If it had Mahle cast on the side you probably wouldn't give it a second glance and simply start porting away happily.

Please don't think this is personal Brad (or Andy!) as it's not but watsonr and mastermind should not have been placed in the position where they have had to defend themselves against the quality of the Meteor kits - it seemed to me that this thread popped up basically the second that watsonr and mastermind started advertising the Meteor kits. Whether it was a coincidence or not isn't the point.

As a saw builder Brad (and as me being one of your very happy customers!) it is your right to only port and run OEM cylinders and you make some good points. Unfortunately some of the comments you posted made it sound like any other builders who are modifying aftermarket top ends are somehow doing their customers a disservice by not running 100% OEM.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

What the......?! :msp_blink:


I just saw this thread about 25 minutes ago for the first time. I just casually voted no (but without having a heavy stature on the word "NO" - it was more like "nah" than anything else). _*Then*_ I went through and read through the whole thing. 


Had I of read all this first, I never woulda voted...... :beat_brick:


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

MCW said:


> I've been reading all of the comments made about aftermarket kits in general in a few recent threads on the topic as many of the replies and comments have stated that all of the aftermarket kits need work. That is absolute crap and if they are saying that then they haven't been looking at the right kits or more than likely have their blinkers on - I have sold well over 100 kits to people that have done exactly the "Plug And Play" routine with no problems and absolutely no complaints. A number of these are professional users including numerous MS260 44.7mm kits to Australian arborists. Despite selling over 100 kits around 30 extras went out for free to other AS members to test on saw models that I didn't have access to. Some of these kits did have issues such as the early gen MS660BB kits and the early 372XP BB kits. I worked very closely with my supplier to ensure that a different manufacturer was found. Sure I ended up paying an extra USD$10 a kit but it was well worth it and these models are now some of the nicest AM kits you'll see.
> I did have one MS460 BB kit sold on eBay that hooked a ring and I replaced that immediately - it was one that got past my "Quality Control" program with a dodgey exhaust bevel (I don't sell those kits anymore).
> As far as my Caber ring comments I meant the general aftermarket kits like mine, not necessarily Meteor. If the Meteors come with Cabers then that is definately a positive over other aftermarket P&C's
> There are a number of good saw builders on AS who aren't sponsors and don't post threads every 5 minutes on their work that are building some pretty mean and reliable saws with aftermarket top ends - not necessarily supplied by me either. A number of them are Bailey's kits. I won't name them here but I'm sure they'll chime in if they want to.
> ...



Agreed, the vast majority of AM kit available are plug & play. If they weren't we would hear about a lot more failures. However this being AS where guys like to mod stuff, most members would probably prefer to "clean up" the ports in some of the daggy cylinders. I was also sceptical about the cylinders many years ago, but decided to try out one of the earlier baileys BB kits on an ex HD rental 6401. The cylinder was average to say the least, but I needed a bigger saw at the time and decided to just put the cylinder straight on and go and finish the job. There was a slight clearance issue with the piston - probably would of ran okay but I fixed it while I had it apart. The saw runs fine - pulls a 28" bar and 8 pin without any hassle. When I get a chance, I well run it against a stock 7900 but I'm guessing it will be close. All up not bad for $100 on a cheap saw and the quality of the kits have definitely improved since then. 

If the ports are in good shape and reasonably clean, the nikasil coating is good quality and piston is Meteor with caber rings (caber is part of the Meteor company) you really can't go wrong... (IMHO)


Regarding the overall quality of of the Meteor cylinders... Meteor needs to put more pressure on the cylinder manufactures to improve manufacturing standards and QC. Other companies have done it so it is possible and Meteor has the market share to apply the necessary pressure on the manufactures. To those members who have direct contact with Meteor, might I suggest that they spend more time conversing directly with the manufacturer and less time with the middle men. A lot of information gets lost in translation - especially in the Asian countries. In China for example economies are largely based on "middle men" and it can be very difficult to actually get in contact with the real manufacture, but once you do almost anything is possible and I can speak from experience.


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## LegDeLimber (Dec 10, 2012)

I wish circumstances and health would let me be a test monkey...

...for putting about 120 hours on the untouched AM top end.
and then look to see if any signs of ring catch and flutter, 
any piston marks that align with with any specific areas of the ports.
is any plating suffering in those areas.
wear in the ring groves, relative to port chamfers.
how much wear in the areas of the ring ends
did the rings seem to be getting pushed more in one direction....etc.
-
an as to running "stock" vacuums , Do you mean people actually have one
that doesn't have a 90 deg elbow and a vinyl flutter thingy
hot glued into the inlet, so as to ad that cyclone action ????

[c'mon dang it, pleated kevlar is a pain to clean,Ya can't back wash it! ]


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## edisto (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> I haven't read every post in this thread so I have to ask. Do you sell these kits? If you sell these kits, that would mean you have a vested interest in shining a positive light on your product. There's nothing wrong with that, however this makes your opinion bias.



Not selling them when the competition does might bias an opinion too.

Opinions result in long and exciting threads that generate thousands of posts, but don't resolve anything.

Thus far, we have an improvement in the visible quality of the cylinder in question, with issues that are easily resolvable if you don't mind a little grinding.

What remains unresolved is how the cylinder will run out of the box, and how long will it last. We won't be getting an answer to the latter, although the anecdotal evidence suggests reliability is not an issue.


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## MCW (Dec 10, 2012)

edisto said:


> Not selling them when the competition does might bias an opinion too.



I agree and no matter how much it is sugar coated every work saw builder on AS is in competition with each other, friends or not. Most build good saws so the only way to get one up on the opposition is offer a cheaper alternative. God help us all if that cheaper alternative actually turns out to be quite OK


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## gmax (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> What the......?! :msp_blink:
> 
> 
> I just saw this thread about 25 minutes ago for the first time. I just casually voted no (but without having a heavy stature on the word "NO" - it was more like "nah" than anything else). _*Then*_ I went through and read through the whole thing.
> ...



I hope you never do Jury duty :msp_biggrin:


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

I want to make this *very* clear. This has nothing to do with competition, and Randy in particular. I'm not even taking work right now, and most of it is referred to Randy.


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## edisto (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I want to make this *very* clear. This has nothing to do with competition, and Randy in particular. I'm not even taking work right now, and most of it is referred to Randy.



Brad, a lot of the poo storms you have caused could easily be interpreted that way, and that is how I used to interpret them. 

I actually don't think it is about the money, but there are other things to compete for besides money...


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

How many ways do I have to say it? This had *NOTHING* to do with Randy. In no way does this have to do with any kind of competition. It has *ONLY* to do with the quality of these kits.


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## DSS (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Which top end did you get from Matt? I've had a few and they've been good, but I didn't run any of them stock.



Yeah, thats the saw I got from you. I know you did some work to it, but early on someone said that the aftermarket top ends weren't capable of making any power, so I called bull####. I ran that saw yesterday and the torque is incredible. Good job for sure.


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## SawTroll (Dec 10, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> Agreed, the vast majority of AM kit available are plug & play. .....



Most have to be, if not the sales would stop soon enough. 

However, that doesn't mean that they will perform as well as the OEM ones, even some BB kits are likely produce less power than the OEM, unless someone that knows what he is doing at least correct the porting (that often is sub-standard), and clean them up. Then the question is where the borderline between clean-up/correcting and actual porting work is..... 
Some are so badly concieved in the first place, that they never can be made into even decent performers

My impression at this point is that they often are better suited to be ported than to "plug and play" - but I am surely not an expert...


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## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> How many ways do I have to say it? This had *NOTHING* to do with Randy. In no way does this have to do with any kind of competition. It has *ONLY* to do with the quality of these kits.



Keep saying it, eventually you'll believe it.


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## watsonr (Dec 10, 2012)

Was the renewed anxiety against the quality of Meteor cylinders caused by my business being advertised here... since it's not a competition with Randy... is that it? Seems *quite* coincidental on this end also... but having *no* intent to defraud *or* harm anyone... lets move on.

How about the fact I push these kits on unsuspecting buyers as you quoted...I'm not really sure where that even came from Brad. I have them listed in my signature, just as the Arborist site rules say I can... having paid my sponsor fees. I even have a nice little button that blinks Meteor kits and chainsaw parts (extra charge of course) somewhere up there. In the last 3 months since becoming a sponsor I may have said that I offered a kit at reasonable pricing to my competition in two threads and left it at that, didn't think I was pushing them on unsuspecting buyers that couldn't make up there own minds. Most of the guys here send me PMs asking for information..... seems they are selling by themselves without any extra help. I could have started a thread announcing my business and considered it, but why?

I sell other things besides Meteor Cylinder kits, hope your not trying to hurt my business Brad, that wouldn't be very nice... even if you were my competition. I need to get the word out just like you did when you first started your business and felt that this site was a great opportunity to sell aftermarket kits at prices lower than the competition and I still believe that. 

An affordable solution to OEM!

WOW, that has a good ring to it, I should trademark that!


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

No, my goal isn't to hurt you or your business. That might be a result, but certainly isn't my desire. My only goal, as I've stated over and over, is to see the quality of these kits much better than what they are.

IMHO, it's nothing more than a marketing ploy, that Meteor is putting their name brand on these kits, when under the covers is the same cylinder, from the same plant, that's being sold by lesser respected brands. I expect better than this from Meteor. It was you for sale thread in the chainsaw forum that was the straw that broke the camels back. If they're going to be pushed like that, then i felt the user community should know what's really in that box. Again, my rant isn't against just Meteor, but all inferior AM cylinders.

Again, this was not personal against you or anyone else. You simply happen to be closely associated with my target.

I'm sure this will all be twisted out of context, perhaps not by you, but it is the truth. As we've already seen though, once the mob comes out and starts to riot, they don't care about the truth.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

gmax said:


> I hope you never do Jury duty :msp_biggrin:




Hah! Well I walked right into that one didn't I....?! 


_DERP!_


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## edisto (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> If they're going to be pushed like that, then i felt the user community should know what's really in that box.



Wouldn't that involve actually looking in the box?


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## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> No, my goal isn't to hurt you or your business. That might be a result, but certainly isn't my desire. My only goal, as I've stated over and over, is to see the quality of these kits much better than what they are.



What do you want to see better? You haven't run the provided kit, you haven't measured the provided kit in any meaningful way. You drew some lines and spun the piston around in the cylinder and deemed the kit junk, until watsonr called you out on it and now you're going to do a review whenever you get around to it. Amazing how bashing them had to take place right after people were advertising them in their sigs, but actually seeing if they run well and are a good alternative can wait until you're not busy. 



blsnelling]IMHO said:


> Check out this one. I was turned onto it by another AS sponsor. These have been gone through and are ready to go. LATHEMASTER8x14Lathe.htm



Wait a second, isn't that exactly what Mastermind does? Okay for a lathe, but not for a cylinder? 

I'm glad to know you don't have an issue using substandard equipment to work on other people's saws. 

What, what's that? The lathe is okay because it works fine for your needs and was more cost effective than something else? Weird, I know of some p/c kits just like that, that are so bad, in your opinion, that you won't even allow your name to be associated with them. Even though you haven't actually run one on a saw.

Oh wait, there was a bunch of threads were you did run them and said they were great. Where did those threads go, they used to be so easy to find? The tears must have washed them away.



blsnelling said:


> I'm sure this will all be twisted out of context, perhaps not by you, but it is the truth. As we've already seen though, once the mob comes out and starts to riot, they don't care about the truth.



No need to twist it, you've made yourself very clear. Suddenly when people don't agree with you they don't care about the truth and are a mob. If you don't care about the truth and are by yourself what does that make you? I'll give you a hint, look inward not outward.

oop:


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## Scooterbum (Dec 10, 2012)

Originally Posted by blsnelling
I'm sure this will all be twisted out of context, perhaps not by you, but it is the truth. As we've already seen though, once the mob comes out and starts to riot, they don't care about the truth.

*Really???????
I hate the way this word truth keeps getting thrown around.

How many remember the busted cylinder fins mess?*


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

Wow, you're really reaching for that one. That was an honest mistake and was made right. You're simply making my point, with a total disregard for the truth.

Besides, that whole thing was set up anyway. That saw is still running strong today.


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## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> Your completely right if you are a homeowner joe you can probably get enough longevity in one of those aftermarket kits that u wouldn't notice any lack of quality in the quality. I guess your right at home with dodge so I see how u don't mind AM P&C kits. My best buddy was a master mopar mechanic for 22 years and loved dodge...but he can't even stomach buying one anymore. I can't remember what era of dodge minivan, but he could change the tranny in 45 mins because of how many times he had to do it. You don't live in as cold of a climate as us so u may not have seen all the tranny issues we have with dodges, but their trucks that came out in 94' were no better. If u like dodge trucks and are happy with them you will be very happy with subordinate chainsaw p&c's too.



LOL, aint that the truth, I've been a mechanic for 15 years, and the big 3 can certainly turn out some JUNK!! I'm very biased on thr cars that I'll buy.



DSS said:


> Yeah, thats the saw I got from you. I know you did some work to it, but early on someone said that the aftermarket top ends weren't capable of making any power, so I called bull####. I ran that saw yesterday and the torque is incredible. Good job for sure.



Right should of known thats the one you were talking about!


----------



## Tzed250 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> No, my goal isn't to hurt you or your business. That might be a result, but certainly isn't my desire. My only goal, as I've stated over and over, is to see the quality of these kits much better than what they are.
> 
> IMHO, it's nothing more than a marketing ploy, that Meteor is putting their name brand on these kits, when under the covers is the same cylinder, from the same plant, that's being sold by lesser respected brands. I expect better than this from Meteor. It was you for sale thread in the chainsaw forum that was the straw that broke the camels back. If they're going to be pushed like that, then i felt the user community should know what's really in that box. Again, my rant isn't against just Meteor, but all inferior AM cylinders.



If it is that important to you Brad, start your own importation/distribution/retail company that sells AM cylinder kits. If startup capital is a problem just sell the Cadillac and get an affordable DD. I'm sure an extremely bright fellow like yourself could make a going concern happen fairly quickly. After that the whole AS community would be eternally thankful. 

If you say that you have no desire to undertake such a task then maybe it is best that you don't screw with a man's ability to provide for himself or his family. Especially at this time of year. 

My dear mother always told me that road to Hell was paved with good intentions.


----------



## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Wow, you're really reaching for that one. That was an honest mistake and was made right. You're simply making my point, with a total disregard for the truth.
> 
> Besides, that whole thing was set up anyway. That saw is still running strong today.



I notice you conveniently avoided the post before Scooterbum's. Was it to logical for you to follow?

FWIW, If you were half the man that Steve is you should consider yourself lucky. For you to imply that he is anything but honest is just a chicken #### move on your part to try and deflect.

Keep digging, eventually you'll get out.


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

That's because all you post is mud slinging crap, and I give you the time of day that you deserve..none!

I'm going to follow Randy's lead and step out of this. At this point, it maters not what i say. You will find fault with it.


----------



## tlandrum (Dec 10, 2012)

hooray xpw


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## thomas1 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> That's because all you post is mud slinging crap, and I give you the time of day that you deserve..none!
> 
> I'm going to follow Randy's lead and step out of this. At this point, it maters not what i say. You will find fault with it.



All I did was quote your own posts and respond to them. I'm sorry that you don't have enough confidence in your own bull#### to even attempt to defend it in a rational manner.


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## bryanr2 (Dec 10, 2012)

when people are taking note........ "it rarely matters what you say, just how you say it". People remember how you make them feel, long after they forget what you did to make them feel that way. That's not directed at anyone particularly, we as a community would all do well to keep that in mind.


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## tlandrum (Dec 10, 2012)

i like chainsaws,does anybody else?


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## bryanr2 (Dec 10, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> i like chainsaws,does anybody else?



I sure do. thinking new saw- 562 or 365.... state your case.


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## H 2 H (Dec 10, 2012)

bryanr2 said:


> when people are taking note........ _*"it rarely matters what you say, just how you say it"*_. People remember how you make them feel, long after they forget what you did to make them feel that way. That's not directed at anyone particularly, we as a community would all do well to keep that in mind.



_*ALL SO TRUE *_ :msp_w00t:


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## tlandrum (Dec 10, 2012)

hooray 562


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## Tzed250 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> That's because all you post is mud slinging crap, and I give you the time of day that you deserve..none!
> 
> I'm going to follow Randy's lead and step out of this. At this point, it maters not what i say. You will find fault with it.



I believe you would do well to follow Randy's lead in more ways than to ditch a hornets nest that you poked a hole in. 

You might have noticed that whenever you slam something on AS it never works out well for you.


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## gcdible1 (Dec 10, 2012)

A couple of you guys have said about the same as what I was thinking. The saws, like the parts we choose to build them, as well as the choice of builder; doesnt really matter all that much. This is a great group here at AS. 

The only thing that matters to me is that the builder will stand behind the product, and if theres a problem help me to resolve it. I am confident most all of the competent builders here have the integrity to do this.

I for one, would have my feelings hurt more by weakening the discussion and fellowship here at AS with petty bull####.

Lets just keep having HEALTHY debates and be courteous to fellow members. After all, we might just learn something.


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## indiansprings (Dec 10, 2012)

I tell my boys all the time "Perception is reality" irregardless of what the intent was. I have often deleted post before hitting the send button after reflecting on what it would stir up. 
I applaud Randy, Tree Monkey,Simon,Dennis and Terry for taking porting to the next level, acutally doing machine work that is consisent, accurate and most importantly repeatable. Randy and others have shared their work in detail, no big secrets, allowing others to either do it themselves or have the confidence they are sending it to someone with a machinist background, the days of having port work done by a guy with just a dremel tool is by and large over, most are capable of doing that themselves if they read all the post on here. The bar has simply been raised from where it was two years ago. Most are capable of doing a piston and cylinder swap, it's easy peasy, Randy is breaking ground with the option of providing a customer a ported, blue printed after market cylinder, the way I look at it, it is far from the way it came from him, all the obvious defects have been removed/re-worked, I have no problem believing after his massaging it would outperform most if not all stock set up's. Don't know the exact pricing but I'll bet it would save a guy a 100.00, save more than half that in shipping so the savings might be even more. Someone has to be the pioneer in any endeavor.

I do think a poster had it right, Brad should hook up with after market supplier and work with them to make a product that meets his specs, it would be a service to the chainsaw community, lots of profit potential there. 20 porting jobs will buy a ticket to Tawian or China, believe me from expierence if they can mfg to Cummins and Mercedes standards they can meet Brad's, they can make any quality you want, you just have to pay for it.


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## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

People getting all antsy in their pantsy around here. You'd think this was more important to the world than taxes and gun control 

Srs intrwb bznass in hurrrrr str8 facez ppl str8 facez


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## Scooterbum (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Wow, you're really reaching for that one. That was an honest mistake and was made right. You're simply making my point, with a total disregard for the truth.
> 
> Besides, that whole thing was set up anyway. That saw is still running strong today.



Honest mistake? Setup? 
Surely you can do better then that.
Not that far of a reach really.


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## almondgt (Dec 10, 2012)

I enjoyed the pictures provided in this thread...........there is nothing like reading some light banter involving some chainsaw parts


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## DSS (Dec 10, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> *Randy is breaking ground with the option of providing a customer a ported, blue printed after market cylinder, the way I look at it, it is far from the way it came from him, all the obvious defects have been removed/re-worked, I have no problem believing after his massaging it would outperform most if not all stock set up's.*


----------



## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

Seems as though some are allowed opinions and others not. People are going to do what they do, this thread won't change that. 

Shut up and move on.


----------



## Mastermind (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Seems as though some are allowed opinions and others not. People are going to do what they do, this thread won't change that.
> 
> *Shut up and move on.*



I agree.

God Bless Us Each And Every One.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Seems as though some are allowed opinions and others not. People are going to do what they do, this thread won't change that.
> 
> Shut up and move on.



Yep. Everyone has had their say. I hate it when people type things that only serve to lower my opinion of them.


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

But JJ!

You're the only reason I post - regardless of how much you dislike me!! :msp_ohmy: :msp_biggrin:


----------



## Tree Sling'r (Dec 10, 2012)

Since I eyeball every saw I build, I guess the numbers would never matter to me. It's about performance and liability, I have not had either from the kits I messed with. That was years ago though, possibly they are much better. I will say, I ordered a Meteor 460 replacement top end for a cheaper option for a neighbor, no mods. So far so good.
I just hate seeing all this soap opera crap. We all have an opinion, none are any better than the next guys. Funny how fued's and opinions go hand on hand.


----------



## Jacob J. (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> But JJ!
> 
> You're the only reason I post - regardless of how much you dislike me!! :msp_ohmy: :msp_biggrin:



Thanks for the sack full of farts under my pillow


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Thanks for the sack full of farts under my pillow




Ah-Ha! That's a dual fisted post right there sir!!


Why that's expert level - hell I'm not even close to that...!! 


You're good!!! :cool2:


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

Tree Sling'r said:


> We all have an opinion, none are any better than the next guys.




Good point Jasha....


But I prefer to look at it backasswards and say "It's a good thing everyone's opinions are just as worthless as mine!"  ::thumbsup::


----------



## Trx250r180 (Dec 10, 2012)

i feel like im in a room with some real cool people today


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> i feel like im in a room with some real cool people today



...talking about chainsaw related stuff, can't get much better than that :biggrin:


----------



## Trx250r180 (Dec 10, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> ...talking about chainsaw related stuff, can't get much better than that :biggrin:


----------



## edisto (Dec 10, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> i feel like im in a room with some real cool people today



Got any cigarettes?


----------



## Dennis Cahoon (Dec 10, 2012)

I sure hope just for fun, no one yells "Dog Pile Brad" at the next GTG.:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## edisto (Dec 10, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> I sure hope just for fun, no one yells "Dog Pile Brad" at the next GTG.:hmm3grin2orange:



The problem is that it is usually Brad who yells it.


----------



## wigglesworth (Dec 10, 2012)

[video=youtube;skU-jBFzXl0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skU-jBFzXl0[/video]


----------



## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

On a positive note, I was just at Madsens today and bought a 28" techlight, much cheaper then home. Going on the 562XPW!!! Madsens is way cool!!


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> On a positive note, I was just at Madsens today and bought a 28" techlight, much cheaper then home. Going on the 562XPW!!! Madsens is way cool!!



Is this the same xpw we're holding our breath for a vid and now AS looks like a ridiculous group of smurfs? It's ok we don't like pictures or videos or anything


----------



## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> Is this the same xpw we're holding our breath for a vid and now AS looks like a ridiculous group of smurfs? It's ok we don't like pictures or videos or anything



LOL yes it is, just on a few day holiday down at Great Wolf Lodge with the family. I'll try to add a pic.


----------



## watsonr (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> No, my goal isn't to hurt you or your business. That might be a result, but certainly isn't my desire. My only goal, as I've stated over and over, is to see the quality of these kits much better than what they are. It was you for sale thread in the chainsaw forum that was the straw that broke the camels back.



When can I expect to see threads on those BRANDS of kits and those people associated to them? Bailey's, NorthWood Saws and the others...



blsnelling said:


> If they're going to be pushed like that, then i felt the user community should know what's really in that box. Again, my rant isn't against just Meteor, but all inferior AM cylinders.


Most people who don't like a product just don't buy it. I placed an ad in my signature and you felt it necessary to attach my product because you didn't like it. What am I supposed to think Brad? Exactly what I was beginning to think and many alluded to... that's down right dirty!



blsnelling said:


> Again, this was not personal against you or anyone else. You simply happen to be closely associated with my target.


Maybe you should have written them a letter outlining there deficiencies?? And what about Randy, I'm going to assume he wasn't your target either? I hope this isn't hurting your business Brad and to think, you actually though it wouldn't hurt my business or me personally.... really?



blsnelling said:


> I'm sure this will all be twisted out of context, perhaps not by you, but it is the truth. As we've already seen though, once the mob comes out and starts to riot, they don't care about the truth.



Lets talk about the truth. You did make this post to cause damage and the collateral damage doesn't really matter to you....took 24 pages to get to....thought you were bigger than that... guess not...perception?

You don't know me from Adam, but felt it your responsibility to announce to everyone I was pushing these kits to unsuspecting buyers.... that was an attach on my business.... I would have never attached you or your business even if you were my direct competition... you Sir owe me and this community an apology!



indiansprings said:


> I tell my boys all the time "Perception is reality" irregardless of what the intent was. I have often deleted post before hitting the send button after reflecting on what it would stir up.


A very intelligent post and words to live by... seems we have a belief in common, I deleted a bunch just in this thread alone... not this one!



indiansprings said:


> Don't know the exact pricing but I'll bet it would save a guy a 100.00, save more than half that in shipping so the savings might be even more. Someone has to be the pioneer in any endeavor.



And that savings is passed directly to the consumer.... smart business! Quite an astute observation and the truth in why i choose Randy. Nobody on this site was doing that.... They say to be successful in business to pick your product wisely and the way its marketing will sort the men from boys! I felt that I've made a pretty good choice, I've even offered it to several others and those are in the works. This thread just happened to conveniently serve a purpose for me as well Brad and I'd like to thank you for that!

Please sent that cylinder to Scooterbum, I believe you've gotten your moneys worth from it. Send me the cost of shipping and I'll gladly pay the tab... no hard feelings..... business is business!

I'm done with this thread, wished it turned out better, to bad you didn't realize it earlier..... it could have been a great opportunity for you....often, the end serves the purpose.... seems you've called the mob on yourself.

Oh and last thing... you've added your name the naughty list all by yourself... Merry Christmas!


----------



## spacemule (Dec 10, 2012)

Geez, another Snelling thread.


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> LOL yes it is, just on a few day holiday down at Great Wolf Lodge with the family. I'll try to add a pic.



I hope it's a moving picture


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

I had shrimp curry, garlic naan, and samosas for dinner. Fricken excellent.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 10, 2012)

Best pic I can do for now, to prove I was actually there.

View attachment 267008


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> I had shrimp curry, garlic naan, and samosas for dinner. Fricken excellent.



I love samosas!


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

*just to prove I had that for dinner.*


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

Homemade pizza here tonight


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

nice looking crust


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


>



I like your dinner table accessories :msp_thumbup:


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 10, 2012)

This is my homemade pizza for us fatboys. :msp_tongue:






View attachment 267017


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

What kind of pizza cooking apparatus are you boys using?


----------



## opinion (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


>



What is this, Indian?


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a local crust, Portland Pie Co. - they make awesome dough. This one I made with hamburg, pepperoni, feta, fresh sliced mozzarella and Cabot mozzarella. I would normally like to include onions and mushrooms but that just wasn't on the menu tonight. My wife could eat pizza every single day, she lets me try whatever combo I want


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

opinion said:


> What is this, Indian?



yup


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

opinion said:


> What is this, Indian?



Duh, you're not allowed to eat Indians that's kinda against human rights and stuffz


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 10, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> What kind of pizza cooking apparatus are you boys using?



Ours is all homemade crust rise rolled everything. Just using oven with a air pocketed pan


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> It's a local crust, Portland Pie Co. - they make awesome dough. This one I made with hamburg, pepperoni, *feta*, fresh sliced mozzarella and Cabot mozzarella. I would normally like to include onions and mushrooms but that just wasn't on the menu tonight. My wife could eat pizza every single day, she lets me try whatever combo I want



:love1:


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> Duh, you're not allowed to eat Indians that's kinda against human rights and stuffz



there's literally a billion of them, who's gonna miss one or two?


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Ours is all homemade crust rise rolled everything. Just using oven with a air pocketed pan



you had me at homemade....


----------



## Majorpayne (Dec 10, 2012)

I bought a bread machine a couple of years ago just to make pizza dough. I cook em on a stone in the oven. Got to have anchovies for me.


----------



## rms61moparman (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> It's a local crust, Portland Pie Co. - they make awesome dough. This one I made with hamburg, pepperoni, feta, fresh sliced mozzarella and Cabot mozzarella. I would normally like to include onions and mushrooms but that just wasn't on the menu tonight. My wife could eat pizza every single day, she lets me try whatever combo I want





It's ALL good when your wife lets you try whatever combo's you want!!!!!:msp_w00t:


Mike


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

I've heard of that, what kinda stone and where from?


----------



## Majorpayne (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> I've heard of that, what kinda stone and where from?



I ordered it from Amazon. I don't remember what I paid but it is worth it in my book. The crust turns out just right. Anything over $25 is free shipping from them.


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

Our stone is a pampered chef stone. We have made homemade dough before but it hasn't turned out very well. I don't have my grandfathers touch when it comes to bread


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

rms61moparman said:


> It's ALL good when your wife lets you try whatever combo's you want!!!!!:msp_w00t:
> 
> 
> Mike



Wait, I get this feeling were not talking pizza anymore......


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Dec 10, 2012)

We actually make 3 pizzas at a time and cook 1 at a time. Each has a different selection of toppings. The one in pic is my selection of toppings.


----------



## Zombiechopper (Dec 10, 2012)

my Mum has a pampered chef one. You gotta cook a bunch of oily stuff on it and then it really starts working good. They get seasoned like cast iron.

I worked in a pizza place decades ago. First 'real' job. The best pizza was at the end of the night and we would clean out the tray at the edge of the counter where all the extra bits of ingredients fall off. Load up that dogs breakfast of everything onto a pie and cook it up.


----------



## Wild Knight (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> Our stone is a pampered chef stone. We have made homemade dough before but it hasn't turned out very well. I don't have my grandfathers touch when it comes to bread



I wanted that smokey, brick oven flavor, so I put my stone and pizza on my webber. Bad idea. Split the stone into 3 pieces. There is a pizza stone on Amazon that will handle charcoal grill heat, but I don't remember the name of it.


----------



## Zombiechopper (Dec 10, 2012)

to do it perfect I think ya need more heat than a home oven. I do remember the restaurant pizza oven was set to 750F. So a hot BBQ might be the ticket if there is a stone that can take it


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

Wild Knight said:


> I wanted that smokey, brick oven flavor, so I put my stone and pizza on my webber. Bad idea. Split the stone into 3 pieces. There is a pizza stone on Amazon that will handle charcoal grill heat, but I don't remember the name of it.



I would think a regular sheet would be better in a grill? Definitely definitely don't use the cardboard sheet a frozen pie comes on!!! Don't ask..... Lol


----------



## Tzed250 (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> I had shrimp curry, garlic naan, and samosas for dinner. Fricken excellent.



Do they have Chicken Tikka Masala?


----------



## BloodOnTheIce (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


>



I love me some Indian food.


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

This is the best part about these threads - they always end in some kind of amazing entertaining awesomeness which gets embraced those of us who can't help but express our bromance for food and other men.  


You all make me wish I were a polygamist gay. :msp_wub:


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> You all make me wish I were a polygamist gay.



You aren't?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

WatsonR, you're right. I do owe you an appology. I already did that with Mastermind and have been thinking all day that I should probably do this publicly. While I stand by my opinion of the quality, the way I went about this was in very poor taste. I have given both of you guys every reason to be upset with me. For that, I am sorry. To be honest, I'm embarrassed as well. I thought I had learned this lesson, but obviously not. I let my passion and strong opinion get in the way of my better judgement. Moving forward, I will do my best to temper my opinions with better judgement.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Best pic I can do for now, to prove I was actually there.



we believe ya Will,,, I spent two full days @ Madsens,,, and a pile of money when I was up that way to attend the logging show in Sequim,,,, I love that place!!!

Hey I thought this was a chainsaw thread??? why they talkin bout Pizza and stuff??????????


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

WatsonR, you're right. I do owe you an appology. I already did that with Mastermind and have been thinking all day that I should probably do this publicly. While I stand by my opinion of the quality, the way I went about this was in very poor taste. I have given both of you guys every reason to be upset with me. For that, I am sorry. To be honest, I'm embarrassed as well. I thought I had learned this lesson, but obviously not. I let my passion and strong opinion get in the way of my better judgement. Moving forward, I will do my best to temper my opinions with better judgement.


----------



## mweba (Dec 10, 2012)

Two words. Brick Oven


----------



## KenJax Tree (Dec 10, 2012)

We have the Pampered Chef stone, it takes a few hours to cool down after you use it it stays hot forever.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> Do they have Chicken Tikka Masala?



They do and it's excellent, it's a small family owned place they have great food.


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> We have the Pampered Chef stone, it takes a few hours to cool down after you use it it stays hot forever.



Consistent dense material, good stuff. I don't like all the PC stuff but I do like the knives and stones fo sho!


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> This is the best part about these threads - they always end in some kind of amazing entertaining awesomeness which gets embraced those of us who can't help but express our bromance for food and other men.
> 
> 
> You all make me wish I were a polygamist gay. :msp_wub:





You are such a homo.


----------



## RiverRat2 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> WatsonR, you're right. I do owe you an appology. I already did that with Mastermind and have been thinking all day that I should probably do this publicly. While I stand by my opinion of the quality, the way I went about this was in very poor taste. I have given both of you guys every reason to be upset with me. For that, I am sorry. To be honest, I'm embarrassed as well. I thought I had learned this lesson, but obviously not. I let my passion and strong opinion get in the way of my better judgement. Moving forward, I will do my best to temper my opinions with better judgement.





Oh [email protected] I get it,,, Brad stepped on his crank again,,,, Ouch that's gonna leave a mark!!!


----------



## KenJax Tree (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> You are such a homo.



Is it the same homo i heard follows guys around at GTG?


----------



## mweba (Dec 10, 2012)

We have the PC stone and enjoy it but most my pizza is cooked in bar style pizza oven. Single pizza oven with coil top and bottom.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> Do they have Chicken Tikka Masala?



they do and it's excellent.

Edit: ooops, Andre already answered for me.


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

mweba said:


> We have the PC stone and enjoy it but most my pizza is cooked in bar style pizza oven. Single pizza oven with coil top and bottom.



Quit bragging. Lol


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Is it the same homo i heard follows guys around at GTG?




ChikkenFeedChuck'r.....???


Yep that's him. :jester:


----------



## Stihl 041S (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> Our stone is a pampered chef stone. We have made homemade dough before but it hasn't turned out very well. I don't have my grandfathers touch when it comes to bread



Convection oven for breads and pastry. 

Coarse corn meal under the pizza crust. 

Hey Nik!!


----------



## almondgt (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> WatsonR, you're right. I do owe you an appology. I already did that with Mastermind and have been thinking all day that I should probably do this publicly. While I stand by my opinion of the quality, the way I went about this was in very poor taste. I have given both of you guys every reason to be upset with me. For that, I am sorry. To be honest, I'm embarrassed as well. I thought I had learned this lesson, but obviously not. I let my passion and strong opinion get in the way of my better judgement. Moving forward, I will do my best to temper my opinions with better judgement.



It's not a pizza but it sounds good to me.................we're just human of course!


----------



## Tree Sling'r (Dec 10, 2012)

parrisw said:


> On a positive note, I was just at Madsens today and bought a 28" techlight, much cheaper then home. Going on the 562XPW!!! Madsens is way cool!!



The greatest store ever.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

Stihl 041S said:


> Convection oven for breads and pastry.
> 
> Coarse corn meal under the pizza crust.
> 
> Hey Nik!!



Hi Rob!


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

Yeah sure Nik, say hi to Rob but not to me....:msp_sneaky:


I'm cuttin' you off. No more pie.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

When I'm finished with my piece of this, I think I'd like some apple or cherry pie.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> Yeah sure Nik, say hi to Rob but not to me....:msp_sneaky:
> 
> 
> I'm cuttin' you off. No more pie.



So that's where he's been getting all that pie from.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> Yeah sure Nik, say hi to Rob but not to me....:msp_sneaky:
> 
> 
> I'm cuttin' you off. No more pie.



Rob's not a homo.....


----------



## srcarr52 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wild Knight said:


> I wanted that smokey, brick oven flavor, so I put my stone and pizza on my webber. Bad idea. Split the stone into 3 pieces. There is a pizza stone on Amazon that will handle charcoal grill heat, but I don't remember the name of it.



Just put it straight on the grates. Oil and cook one side slightly then oil the top and flip when it's starting to get crispy on the bottom. Add sauce/ingredients and cook until cheese melts. 

We do it all the time for party's on the patio. Everyone gets to put on the toppings they want and the smokey flavored homemade dough goes great with a nice Cabernet.


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> When I'm finished with my piece of this, I think I'd like some apple or cherry pie.





Eh, don't beat yerself up too much - s'not the first and definitely not the last argument to go down here!


Appreciate the fact you're healthy enough to get out of bed every day to have said argument! ::thumbsup::


Join the party - there's plenty of room for everyone!


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

fatguy said:


> rob's not a homo.....



lol!


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

srcarr52 said:


> Just put it straight on the grates. Oil and cook one side slightly then oil the top and flip when it's starting to get crispy on the bottom. Add sauce/ingredients and cook until cheese melts.
> 
> We do it all the time for party's on the patio. Everyone gets to put on the toppings they want and the smokey flavored homemade dough goes great with a nice Cabernet.



To go with a smokey flavor I like a chianti


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> Rob's not a homo.....





Yeah I guess I deserve that.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

Rob *is *a homo.................a homo sapien


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> Join the party - there's plenty of room for everyone!




Hey, what party WoodChuck'r.....???


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> Hey, what party WoodChuck'r.....???




*THIS PARTY!* 

[video=youtube;9bZkp7q19f0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0[/video]


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

indiansprings said:


> would save a guy a 100.00, save more than half that in shipping so the savings might be even more. Someone has to be the pioneer in any endeavor.
> 
> I do think a poster had it right, Brad should hook up with after market supplier and work with them to make a product that meets his specs, it would be a service to the chainsaw community, lots of profit potential there. 20 porting jobs will buy a ticket to Tawian or China, believe me from expierence if they can mfg to Cummins and Mercedes standards they can meet Brad's, they can make any quality you want, you just have to pay for it.



I hate to do this, but so what, it's still coming from Tawian or China. I try and spend my money on other countries, even if it's at a cost. IMHO this is the exact type of thinking that got us to where we are today. Just my opinion, which means nothing on the internet.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

if you clowns would shut-up about chainsaw parts, I could expand my knowledge (and ass) of pizza preparation.


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

I could do with some more tips on making the perfect pizza arty: izza: :rainbow:


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> if you clowns would shut-up about chainsaw parts, I could expand my knowledge (and ass) of pizza preparation.



Come on Nik, that would be somewhat productive, we don't need any of that kind of stuff around here!!:alien2:


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

Andyshine77 said:


> Come on Nik, that would be somewhat productive, we don't need any of that kind of stuff around here!!:alien2:



yah you're right, I don't know what the hell I was thinking. That curry must have got to me...


----------



## Wild Knight (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> if you clowns would shut-up about chainsaw parts, I could expand my knowledge (and ass) of pizza preparation.



Does that make them ass-clowns?


----------



## Zombiechopper (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> if you clowns would shut-up about chainsaw parts, I could expand my knowledge (and ass) of pizza preparation.



is this the pizza thread or the steak thread? I get confused sometimes


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

Rudolf73 said:


> I could do with some more tips on making the perfect pizza arty: izza: :rainbow:



Trust me you'll never make a perfect pizza  and you don't want to anyway.


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

Wild Knight said:


> Does that make them ass-clowns?



if the ass-less clown chaps fit.....


----------



## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

Zombiechopper said:


> is this the pizza thread or the steak thread? I get confused sometimes



Well you can put steak on pizza but it's pretty tough to put pizza on steak, so it's a pizza thread. Pizza.... Italy.... I say it's relevant


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

Zombiechopper said:


> is this the pizza thread or the steak thread? I get confused sometimes



this one's pizza, Randy's was steak. Get it together man.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> this one's pizza, Randy's was steak. Get it together man.


I need me a good steak! This Humble Pie tastes like crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## FATGUY (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I need me a good steak! This Humble Pie tastes like crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



jeez Brad, you'd think it'd be an acquired taste for you.:yoyo::yoyo:








sorry, had to.....


----------



## Rudolf73 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I need me a good steak! This Humble Pie tastes like crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Steak in a pie? that tastes pretty good


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I need me a good steak! This Humble Pie tastes like crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Brat, shut up.





























:jester::jester::jester:


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

Ouch..................ouch. I'm getting it from both sides. Oh, it's just you goofballs


----------



## srcarr52 (Dec 10, 2012)

TK said:


> To go with a smokey flavor I like a chianti



A Chianti would go well also but I prefer a dry Cabernet. But it all comes down to what will go well with your choice of sauce and meat.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> jeez Brad, you'd think it'd be an acquired taste for you.:yoyo::yoyo:.



Well played my friend, well played


----------



## Stihl 041S (Dec 10, 2012)

FATGUY said:


> Rob's not a homo.....



The Hanson brothers would just nugpot the SOB. Lol

New verb!!!


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## TK (Dec 10, 2012)

srcarr52 said:


> A Chianti would go well also but I prefer a dry Cabernet. But it all comes down to what will go well with your choice of sauce and meat.



I love a good wine pairing. My tongue pairs well with almost any red!


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## Stihl 041S (Dec 10, 2012)

Everybody looking in the urban dictionary?


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## Tzed250 (Dec 10, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> *THIS PARTY!*
> 
> [video=youtube;9bZkp7q19f0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0[/video]



Chuck'r? Is that you in the elevator?


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## watsonr (Dec 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> WatsonR, you're right. I do owe you an appology. I already did that with Mastermind and have been thinking all day that I should probably do this publicly. While I stand by my opinion of the quality, the way I went about this was in very poor taste. I have given both of you guys every reason to be upset with me. For that, I am sorry. To be honest, I'm embarrassed as well. I thought I had learned this lesson, but obviously not. I let my passion and strong opinion get in the way of my better judgement. Moving forward, I will do my best to temper my opinions with better judgement.



I had the best intentions for this thread and honestly was hoping you wouldn't step in it. Nothing wrong with strong opinion except when it becomes en-twined with strong emotion...... passion and emotion are confusing sometimes. Wipe your feet off, I can take it for both of us.

The first to ask for a hug will be punched in the face or receive one of these  then sent packing.

Moving on.... get a discount on any Meteor kit if you contact me in the next ten minutes....:taped: I've been staring at this reply contemplating hitting the send button for more than ten minutes now..... but I have another window open and see another Meteor thread with pictures starting... I'm out


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 10, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> Chuck'r? Is that you in the elevator?




Nope I'm the guy in the hot Korean chick suit.


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## Mastermind (Dec 10, 2012)

watsonr said:


> I had the best intentions for this thread and honestly was hoping you wouldn't step in it. Nothing wrong with strong opinion except when it becomes en-twined with strong emotion...... passion and emotion are confusing sometimes. Wipe your feet off, I can take it for both of us.
> 
> The first to ask for a hug will be punched in the face or receive one of these  then sent packing.
> 
> Moving on.... get a discount on any Meteor kit if you contact me in the next ten minutes....:taped: I've been staring at this reply contemplating hitting the send button for more than ten minutes now..... but I have another window open and see another Meteor thread with pictures starting... I'm out



You are a heck of a great guy for me to deal with as well. I send in an email late last night.......get a reply within minutes. The order goes out this morning. 



So......no huh then? ####.


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## watsonr (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> You are a heck of a great guy for me to deal with as well. I send in an email late last night.......get a reply within minutes. The order goes out this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> So......no huh then? ####.



Thanks! Order shipped. So are you my friend, so are you!

That's kind of mushy... line up for punches here>>>>>>>> Crap, no down arrow to point my sig out


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 11, 2012)

watsonr said:


> Crap, no down arrow to point my sig out



↓


Copy, paste.


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## gcdible1 (Dec 11, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Ouch..................ouch. I'm getting it from both sides. Oh, it's just you goofballs



THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!

Sorry, but I had to do it.


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## RiverRat2 (Dec 11, 2012)

Tree Sling'r said:


> The greatest store ever.



I've been in a bunch of tree industry establishments,,, I have to agree with Jasha,,, it is bar none,,, the most complete arboricultural store I have ever been in,,,, the Stihl and Husqvarna displays are just freaking Awesome,,,


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## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

WoodChuck'r said:


> Nope I'm the guy in the hot Korean chick suit.



Will you be my girlfriend?


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## Mastermind (Dec 11, 2012)

procarbine2k1 said:


> Will you be my girlfriend?



I'm sure he will........we pass that #### around at GTGs. :msp_ohmy:


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## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm sure he will........we pass that #### around at GTGs. :msp_ohmy:



Ya know the more I think about it, I dont think its going to work out Chuck. Ive been hearin' this stuff for a while and didnt wanna believe it. You can go ahead and keep your kooties, and stuff...


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## parrisw (Dec 11, 2012)

Oh, and at Madsens, they had a box of full wraps for 066's, on clearance for $39.95, I dug through the whole box hoping there would be some husky ones.!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRR there was not.


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## procarbine2k1 (Dec 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Oh, and at Madsens, they had a box of full wraps for 066's, on clearance for $39.95, I dug through the whole box hoping there would be some husky ones.!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRR there was not.



Oh I hope you grabbed a few, ya know for your buddies on AS and all.


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## Rudolf73 (Dec 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Oh, and at Madsens, they had a box of full wraps for 066's, on clearance for $39.95, I dug through the whole box hoping there would be some husky ones.!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRR there was not.



You're running the wrong brand of saws Will... 




:jester:


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## parrisw (Dec 11, 2012)

procarbine2k1 said:


> Oh I hope you grabbed a few, ya know for your buddies on AS and all.



UMMM, no!



Rudolf73 said:


> You're running the wrong brand of saws Will...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I'm not! There is a reason why they are giving them away!


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## Jacob J. (Dec 11, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Oh, and at Madsens, they had a box of full wraps for 066's, on clearance for $39.95, I dug through the whole box hoping there would be some husky ones.!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRR there was not.





procarbine2k1 said:


> Oh I hope you grabbed a few, ya know for your buddies on AS and all.



I bought two just to have them. $40 for a new full-wrap for any saw is a good deal. Well, any non-Chinese saw.


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## parrisw (Dec 11, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I bought two just to have them. $40 for a new full-wrap for any saw is a good deal. Well, any non-Chinese saw.



Cool, do you make it up there much? How far do you live from there?


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## Kysawsheila (Dec 12, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> This is my homemade pizza for us fatboys. :msp_tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



girls too?


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## deerlakejens (Dec 12, 2012)

Easiest and best homemade pizza is to use Naan bread as the crust. Precook your choice of toppings (mushrooms, onions, sausage, etc.), put the naan right on the grill grates till the bottom edges brown up, flip and add your choice of sauce, cheese and toppings. Pull off when the cheese has melted and dig in! Super quick and very little mess, tastes as good as the choices you make. 

I was going to suggest changing the topic to something not so inflammatory a few pages back (like maybe, politics) but I'm glad to see that everyone settled down!


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## Mastermind (Dec 12, 2012)

deerlakejens said:


> Easiest and best homemade pizza is to use Naan bread as the crust. Precook your choice of toppings (mushrooms, onions, sausage, etc.), put the naan right on the grill grates till the bottom edges brown up, flip and add your choice of sauce, cheese and toppings. Pull off when the cheese has melted and dig in! Super quick and very little mess, tastes as good as the choices you make.
> 
> *I was going to suggest changing the topic to something not so inflammatory a few pages back (like maybe, politics) but I'm glad to see that everyone settled down!*



I see that you've been a member since '05......I'm certain you've seen much worse. :cool2:


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## KenJax Tree (Dec 12, 2012)

deerlakejens said:


> Easiest and best homemade pizza is to use Naan bread as the crust. Precook your choice of toppings (mushrooms, onions, sausage, etc.), put the naan right on the grill grates till the bottom edges brown up, flip and add your choice of sauce, cheese and toppings. Pull off when the cheese has melted and dig in! Super quick and very little mess, tastes as good as the choices you make.
> 
> I was going to suggest changing the topic to something not so inflammatory a few pages back (like maybe, politics) but I'm glad to see that everyone settled down!



Yeah there we go everyone agrees on politics:msp_thumbup:


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## Wild Knight (Dec 12, 2012)

Kysawsheila said:


> girls too?



Hi Sheila!


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## 8433jeff (Dec 12, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> This is my homemade pizza for us fatboys. :msp_tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Loose the olives, both kinds. Add bacon. Send to me. TIA.


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## RiverRat2 (Dec 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I see that you've been a member since '05......I'm certain you've seen much worse. :cool2:



I'm thinking you're right Randy,,,, I'm wondering if he know my Kiwi transplant buddy Andy (AKA: Lakeside53)


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## Gologit (Dec 12, 2012)

*Hey RR2*



RiverRat2 said:


> I'm thinking you're right Randy,,,, I'm wondering if he know my Kiwi transplant buddy Andy (AKA: Lakeside53)





View attachment 267386


A little past history...we were all a lot better looking then.


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## Mastermind (Dec 12, 2012)

Gologit said:


> A little past history...we were all a lot better looking then.



Why is that bong sitting on that table????

Well? :msp_sneaky:


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## Tzed250 (Dec 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Why is that bong sitting on that table????
> 
> Well? :msp_sneaky:



Because they left the Apogee III sitting on the coffee table in the living room!


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## Gologit (Dec 12, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Why is that bong sitting on that table????
> 
> Well? :msp_sneaky:



No need for a bong...we had Hood River home brew. That stuff ought to come with an MSDS sheet.

Take note though on who has a coffee cup in front of him. RR2 and I had just driven practically non stop from Sacramento to Hood River. A cold beer and a warm kiss would have put me right under the table.


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## Eccentric (Dec 13, 2012)

Gologit said:


> A little past history...we were all a lot better looking then.








Funny Bob, you look about the same to me....





November 2012 for those that are wondering....


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## thomas1 (Dec 13, 2012)

Who's the cutie beside the guy in the white shirt....camo hat, sunglasses?


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## thomas1 (Jan 12, 2013)

Update. New thread here: http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/221513.htm




blsnelling said:


> I finally got a chance to make this topend comparison that I promised a few weeks ago. The test mule was my Dad's early 1st month production 046. It's always been a fantastic runner. The saw is all original and stock, with the exception of a MM mod. The DP muffler cover is even original. First of all, the numbers.
> 
> *OEM Mahle*
> Exhaust - 103°
> ...


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## blsnelling (Jan 12, 2013)

Please make all additional comments in the new thread, http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/221513.htm.


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