# unions



## 056 kid (Aug 19, 2011)

I was down in CA when I saw the line clearance Trees inc. Same company as Asplundh. I stopped to see if I could get a # or an application for some work and the guy told me that of I wanted a shot at a job I had to go to Medford to sign the books. VA is a right to work state so maybe I was out of the loop, but I never expected tree workers to be union. They are under "electrical workers 659" haha. I bet if I signed those books I would find a good job that Friday. . . . . . . . .
. .
what are your opinions on unions?


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## hammerlogging (Aug 20, 2011)

they have their reason for existance and we all have a better life for them.

Unfortunately, they are prone to similar problems as found in politics, non profits, certification bodies, and such.


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## paccity (Aug 20, 2011)

oh, i thought it was about onions.


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## wowzers (Aug 20, 2011)

They had their place in time but now I feel there not necessary.


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## 056 kid (Aug 20, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> they have their reason for existance and we all have a better life for them.
> 
> Unfortunately, they are prone to similar problems as found in politics, non profits, certification bodies, and such.


 


I have to go through about 4 months of training & other nonsense to even be on "line clearance" status. #### that this boy got skills. . .


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## madhatte (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm with Wowzers; I'm represented by a union whether I want to be or not, bosses are afraid to discipline, many workers get away with #### they never would in a non-union job. Still, I suppose it's nice to know there's a disinterested third part... wait, what's L&I for? What's OPM for? OSHA? HR? Waitaminnit, do those guys just want a bit of my money?


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2011)

They have good points and bad. I used to give ours money until I went to ask our union rep a question and got told I made too much money for him to help. So, I quit. 

He was a fire guy.


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## wowzers (Aug 20, 2011)

There is a forester union?


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

056 kid said:


> I have to go through about 4 months of training & other nonsense to even be on "line clearance" status. #### that this boy got skills. . .


 
Yes, you do. But why not pick up a few more? A lot of training _is_ nonsense...but some of it isn't. Take the training, use what you can.

Why not learn something new? You can make a tree fall over with a chainsaw...so can a lot of other people. :msp_wink:


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## floyd (Aug 20, 2011)

Keep your eyes on the prize. 

Will you be paid for this training? If it is a union thing I expect you will be paid.

What do non union jobs pay in that area? Are there any non union jobs?


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## forestryworks (Aug 20, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yes, you do. But why not pick up a few more? A lot of training _is_ nonsense...but some of it isn't. Take the training, use what you can.
> 
> Why not learn something new? You can make a tree fall over with a chainsaw...so can a lot of other people. :msp_wink:


 
Well said, Bob.

Learning new skills is a must these days. Especially in this economy (our new standard of living).

I finished forestry school in May and I start range management school next week. Why not learn something new, increase my chances of employment?

Besides, if you ever get hurt manufacturing a stump, you'll need something to fall back on.


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## Samlock (Aug 20, 2011)

I've seen the dark side of not having the union jobs (we don't). If you go and ask for more money, they say "There is plenty of jerks coming to your place." And if an another contractor gets somewhere stupid enough people to do the job for even less chips, you'll be out of job in no time.... On the other hand, that kind of job protection is indeed vulnerable to corruption and makes it hard to enter the business.

Well, you can't have it all - if you bow to someone, you'll show your arse to someone else.


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## bitzer (Aug 20, 2011)

Kid, I would not go that route. If you have any ambition at all you will not be happy. I have never worked for Asplundh or the like, but I could never work at that type of pace. SLOW! I'm sure some guy who works there will kick my ass for this, but thats my 2 cents. Also I checked into that several months ago, pay rate is 11-25 bucks per hour. The guys at 25 bucks have been there a long time. My guess is that you would get through all of that training, which some will pay for and you'll still end up as a brush monkey at tht end of the day. Lots of beaurocracy involved I would imagine.


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 20, 2011)

Some unions via their greed and inflexibility have caused businesses to go bankrupt. Or go out of business entirely. Read about Eastern Airlines.

And where possible, companies have moved U.S. jobs outside the U.S. where the wages are lower and they don't have to deal with inflexible unions.

But some union jobs can't be moved outside the U.S. Like jobs with cities, counties, and states. What is happening is some of these are quite broke and can no longer pay money into the retirement pension funds for their workers. (Some unions have demanded very early retirement, health benefits, and high pay for retired workers. Some governments can no longer afford to pay for this. Somethings has got to give!) 

Here the US Postal service is going broke...

"Testifying before the Federal Financial Management Subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Postmaster General Patrick R. Donahoe said that the financial condition of the Postal Service is such that in the absence of comprehensive legislation, there are required federal payments that are now in jeopardy. “As things stand, we do not have the cash to make a $5.5 billion prepayment for future retiree health benefits due Sept. 30,” he said"
Postal Service Faces Financial Shortfall Unless Congress Addresses Mandates

Here New Jersey does not have the money to pay for their pensions...

"But even with all of those cuts, New Jersey is still facing a $10 billion budget deficit next year, and the state has $46 billion in unfunded pension liabilities and $65 billion in unfunded health care liabilities that it is somehow going to have to address in the future."
Municipal Bond Market Crash 2011: Are Dozens Of State And Local Governments About To Default On Their Debts?

Here they are saying layoffs may be on the way...
"public employers have little choice but to resort to layoffs, furloughs, five-year salary freezes and outsourcing as ways to cut payroll costs to "feed the pension dragon." 
Pep Talk for Pension Reform

Bottom Line: Might be a better long term plan to NOT take a union job! (or don't count on having that job forever and don't count on any promised retirement.)


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## Sport Faller (Aug 20, 2011)

My family's steel fab shop was union once upon a time way back when, the only thing I remember was: a whooooole lotta #####in and moaning if somebody had to even think about doing something outside their specified position(i.e. most of the guys were far too high and mighty to clean up or take a delivery out), a lotta money going out to the union and not much love comin back, and pretty much not being able to run your own business for all the rules, guidelines, and stipulations from the union


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## 2dogs (Aug 20, 2011)

Samlock said:


> If you bow to someone, you'll show your arse to someone else.



Not sure what that means but I like it.


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

Samlock said:


> Well, you can't have it all - if you bow to someone, you'll show your arse to someone else.


 
Well said.


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## 056 kid (Aug 20, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yes, you do. But why not pick up a few more? A lot of training _is_ nonsense...but some of it isn't. Take the training, use what you can.
> 
> Why not learn something new? You can make a tree fall over with a chainsaw...so can a lot of other people. :msp_wink:


 
Of course, I guess what I do not want to learn is how to become a flagger & everything involved with that:_mellow:


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2011)

Ted, you landed in an area with a long history of high unemployment. I grew up here, good jobs are tough to find.
I lucked out, through high school I worked two maybe three part-time jobs, kept me busy and mostly out of trouble. I took whatever there was, this was a tough time, the mills were closing, logging was just about through. Pretty much the way it is now. The first day out of high school, I chopped off the parental chain and hit the trail. Logging work was sporadic and of limited duration, I traveled a lot, camped out at many of the sites. I had fallback plans, forestry, ranch work, trucking, whatever I could find. I picked up a great deal of experience and knowledge working with small outfits, the wide range of places and people meant learning new things, a ton of gold could not replace what I gained. I did blow off some long term jobs, I left PL because of family interference, I gave LP the finger because I didn't agree with their practices, both would have lasted at least ten years. Instead I took the Knothead's path, spent the better part of 20 years chasin' tail and timber all over Northern California.
The point of the ramble is, take whatever crap job you can find, keep your head up, watch for better things.
A start is all you need, the right work will follow, or hit the trail, be a knothead.


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## HILLBILLYREDNEC (Aug 20, 2011)

*Nay to Unions*

Watch Some Times a Great Notion Notion Movie. Unions are killing the USA. I agree with RandyMac, take what ever job you can and you will learn a lot of things and have skills to survive when work is scarce. Me I would never do a union job  Me I am a free spirit do what ever I want work when I want, not bowing down to some group:hmm3grin2orange:


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## paccity (Aug 21, 2011)

damn hbrn, good to have ya back on , missed the valuable info. :msp_wink:


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## plasticweld (Aug 21, 2011)

*Unions are evil rotten mechanisms designed to destroy both the human spirit and this country. 
*
Figured I would go for the honest approach instead of dancing around. 

Having been a union member, journeyman, Forman and owner of a union company and now have a non-union company I have been able to throw rocks from both sides of the fence. 

Any man who wants rise to the top in any field will not limit himself with the constraints of a union. It handcuffs both the owners and the workers and in my honest first hand experience I would not go down that path unless there where no others


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## madhatte (Aug 21, 2011)

As alluded to earlier, unions had their place and time, as did guilds. There are cottage industries now coalescing, such as permaculture, which work well in a guild structure because the members are too few and far-between to function as well alone as they do together. However, neither industry nor government are small and wild enough today that another oligarchy can do much more for their cost than to disrupt. Labor laws now protect the worker from nearly all of the early-industrial era evils that caused the rise of unions in the first place. Unions today are little more than an expensive private club where power is concentrated.


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## Sport Faller (Aug 21, 2011)

madhatte said:


> As alluded to earlier, unions had their place and time, as did guilds. There are cottage industries now coalescing, such as permaculture, which work well in a guild structure because the members are too few and far-between to function as well alone as they do together. However, neither industry nor government are small and wild enough today that another oligarchy can do much more for their cost than to disrupt. Labor laws now protect the worker from nearly all of the early-industrial era evils that caused the rise of unions in the first place. Unions today are little more than an expensive private club where power is concentrated.


 
exactly, unions were great in the days before workers comp., workplace safety, and insurance. In the days when someone was injured at work and then simply fired or replaced when they couldn't physically make it to work and when Businesses had almost zero accountability, unions were lifesavers and the only real way for the average workingman to be represented and have a voice


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## hammerlogging (Aug 21, 2011)

All I really have to say is that every time I try to rep someone it says I have to spread it around more. So all of you regulars, trust me, you have a bunch more rep than your tally shows. If I've missed you somehow, its cause I figured I couldn't rep you either and I'd love to.

tried to rep #### the hookers
tried to rep some permaculture- got a funny history with permaulture, ANYTHING 
clever ever done on a farm is permaculture!!

Back to onions.


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## madhatte (Aug 21, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> ANYTHING clever ever done on a farm is permaculture!!


 
Got a buddy big on permaculture. Thought it sounded like hippy BS until he made me watch the Sepp Holzer video and all of a sudden I realized that what I'm doing with my timber sales is permaculture. Never had a name for it before.


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## slowp (Aug 21, 2011)

I'll have to read up on permaculture, but am I right to think it is another word for sustainability? And if so, we've been doing it before it was cool.


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## madhatte (Aug 22, 2011)

slowp said:


> I'll have to read up on permaculture, but am I right to think it is another word for sustainability? And if so, we've been doing it before it was cool.


 
There's more to it than that. It's an integrated philosophy/process that nurtures land first to maximize yields later, often through multi-storied and multi-seasonal crop allocation. I find that it's liberal enough with its doctrines (e.g machinery is not verboten) and strict enough with its applications (e.g. do you REALLY want to cut there and risk slope de-stabilization?) that I seldom have anything more than picayune issues to complain about. It costs less, does more, and leaves more for later. I'm not formally trained yet, but I hope to be in the next couple of years so that I can begin to apply the principles of Permaculture at the landscape level.


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## Double_Diamond (Aug 22, 2011)

One thing to remember is if a company is bidding any kind of public work in California they have to be union or pay prevailing wage (union wages) for the work being preformed. So if the line clearance company does any thing for the state, a city or county they have to contend with that. Most contracts have to go out to competative bid so time is money and profit margins are slim right now so you don't usually see too many guys leaning on a shovel if they want to have a job. Some companies pay prevailing wage for public work and a different wage for private jobs while other places find it easier to go union and just compete for the public jobs.


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## 2dogs (Aug 22, 2011)

Bottom step prevailing wage here is $15.01.


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## Joe46 (Aug 26, 2011)

Onions:msp_thumbup:Unions:msp_thumbdn:


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## mdavlee (Aug 26, 2011)

I was in a pipefitters union for over a year. Worked 7 weeks with them in that time. I got tired of paying them for nothing. The wages were way under what non union were paying.


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## IcePick (Aug 28, 2011)

*Union*

When I worked for Asplundh I was in local 2150. I was proud to be union when I started. I worked that job like a non-union member and caught #### for it all the time from my crew and foreman. If I drug too much brush, I'd get hollered at. If I set up tag lines too quickly for felling operations, I'd get hollered at. If I didn't get a ladder down and used my foot ascender to access a tree, I'd get hollered at. You get the point, however, none of the hollering ever stopped me from my work habits, and eventually down the road one of the GF's pulled me aside, said I've gone above and beyond expectations, and made me a journeyman.

I figured all the bs paid off, but my situation didn't change. Instead of dealing with one crews bs, I had to deal with multiple crews bull#### attitudes, so I went to the residential side shortly thereafter where hard work does the talking.

On a different note, I'm a paid on call firefighter and our department is a union shop, and I couln't imagine it anyother way. I guess it all depends on where you are, what kind of people you're dealing with, and what trade your union is representing.


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## redprospector (Aug 30, 2011)

Once upon a time, in another life, far far away, I worked for a short time in a union shop. I was given a quota. Now in my razor sharp mind, I figured a quota was the least I was supposed to do.  That was my mistake.
I was told by my forman that I was making everyone else look bad.  Being young, and not understanding the value of brownie points, I told him that they didn't need my help to look bad.
Long story short, I didn't last too long on that job. Haven't had a union job since. But I have had a couple of onion jobs over the years.

Andy


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## mdavlee (Aug 30, 2011)

I worked in a union shop as a non union welder. They had a 10% reject rate on x ray. Me and 2 others were at 2% and put out the same as their top 3 welders. They didn't like us being in there but they were behind and had too many repairs. They had job security and we didn't. They laid 2 of our guys off the first week for too many bad x rays but was less than a lot of their guys.


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## bomar (Sep 7, 2011)

im in local 659 IBEW for trees inc wouldnt have it any other way i have never been layed off and we get a raise every 6 months when the cost of living goes up so does our paycheck but there are negatives to its alot harder to get rid of the deadweight and the politics but i have a hell of a retirement started for my age and a union pension


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## Slamm (Sep 7, 2011)

I've worked at two union machine shops, and boy did they teach me the value of not working as hard as I could. I was actually punished for working harder, faster and with higher quality than other union workers. I couldn't stand the mindset or the lack of work ethic behind the "union way" all they care about is themselves. I always figures if the company made money, then they could pay me better every non-union company paid be as good or better than union shops, because I could make them more money, as I was allowed to work to my potential.

The union figures they should get the money first and to heck with the company. Our economy is seeing the lack of benefits of that theory.

Unions suck in almost any situation. They make being lazy more beneficial than working hard, totally countrerproductive to the proper rules of successful business and life long related ethics.

My experience and opinion,

Sam


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## Billy_Bob (Sep 8, 2011)

Update: Something interesting is about to happen with unions... 

The US Postal Service is near default. There is even a countdown and web site recently set up for this...
Saving the Postal Service

The Postal Service unions gave 7 million dollars to Congress in 2010, so Congress is "bought and paid for" by the unions...

...but the Postal Service is going broke and MUST fire many of their union workers - or they will run out of money and will go out of business...

...BUT Congress knows they will not be re-elected if they go against unions...

Stay tuned... Here is story about the Postal Service unions...
Postal Unions


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## madhatte (Sep 9, 2011)

This is relevant to my interests. I will be following this story.


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## 2muchgrass (Sep 9, 2011)

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Watch Some Times a Great Notion Notion Movie. Unions are killing the USA. I agree with RandyMac, take what ever job you can and you will learn a lot of things and have skills to survive when work is scarce. Me I would never do a union job  Me I am a free spirit do what ever I want work when I want, not bowing down to some group:hmm3grin2orange:


 
Bernie Madhoff and the Wall Street villains who caused the financial meltdown we are in the middle of. What union did they belong to?
I can't remember the last time a handful of Union officials stole trillions of dollars from an unsuspecting public.
Does anyone believe that if Unions suddenly all disappeared from the face of the earth, American businesses would stop at nothing to have us all working in sweatshops working 12 hour days, seven days a week for a bowl of rice a day. Isn't that why they move the plants to impoverished third world countries? If they would do that to those people, why wouldn't they do it to us? 
Oh, that's right. We would unite and protest. 
Unions are a necessary evil. They had their place back then and they have their place now. It is the threat of unionization that keeps American business in line. 
Yes, they can be as much a bunch of lying, bottom dwelling scum suckers as any politician, CEO or attorney and often are. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would not want to live in a country where they weren't a strong presence.


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## Samlock (Sep 10, 2011)

That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.

The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....

By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.


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## 2muchgrass (Sep 10, 2011)

Samlock said:


> That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.
> 
> The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....
> 
> By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.



I have no illusions about union leadership and their integrity or nobility. They are there to line their own pockets and get as much as they can while they can, of this I am certain. When a union bankrupts a company, it does it to set an example to other businesses and they don't give a furry rat's behind about the collateral damage to the membership. I have very mixed feelings about that tactic but I guess I can afford to as it never happened to me. Had I been a victim of the tactic, I'm certain my feelings would be a little less mixed.
I worked for a major chemical company for about ten years when the Steelworkers attempted to unionize us. Historically, we had received COLAs just one or two points behind the national average. Everyone was happy. 
We watched profits skyrocket one year and the top executives receive astronomical bonuses while we once again got the one point behind the average COLA.
When the union started the drive, our next COLA was 3 points above the average, medical coverage got a substantial improvement and for the first time that I could recall we got a Christmas bonus. The union gave up, packed their bags and left. 
Yeah, you guessed it. Next year we got exactly a $.01 raise. A whole penny. 
Please, don't tell me we don't need the crooks. I'd much rather have a crook behind me than a politician on my side. I know where a crook is coming from. You know the difference between a catfish and a politician? One is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.


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## madhatte (Sep 10, 2011)

OK, I just had some of my beliefs shaken up a bit. Watch the video, read the story, and then let's talk about 3 things: 1) Who let this happen? 2) How widespread is this? 3) Would the unions have responded the same if the student workers had been from Mexico rather than Europe and Africa?

Found the story quite by accident. Figured this was an appropriate place to post it. We may need to move this thread to Politics, though, as it's a pretty loaded subject.


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## 2muchgrass (Sep 10, 2011)

madhatte said:


> OK, I just had some of my beliefs shaken up a bit. Watch the video, read the story, and then let's talk about 3 things: 1) Who let this happen? 2) How widespread is this? 3) Would the unions have responded the same if the student workers had been from Mexico rather than Europe and Africa?
> 
> Found the story quite by accident. Figured this was an appropriate place to post it. We may need to move this thread to Politics, though, as it's a pretty loaded subject.


 
McDonalds does it (or did) every year with Eastern European students. The group I met were from Poland. At the time, I was on disability and was driving a cab. I drove them all over hell and creation finding them a cheaper place to live and helped them get jobs at regular wages. The pre-arranged landlord was charging them $950 a month EACH for rent and had 8 to 10 students in his two bedroom condo. 
Communication was difficult and they were pretty suspicious of me at first. When finally I left them pretty well situated, they were pretty teary eyed that a total stranger would go out of his way, day after day, until they were properly squared away and were actually able to save money. 
A situation like that has to have been done with the cooperation of officials at the Federal level.
I don't know how widespread it is but we already know two companies that do it. 
You know, the workers don't have to be living here for them to do it. Is it any less wrong if the work place and workers are in Uzbekistan while the company is headquartered in New York? How about auto parts being made in Mexico? I have no idea how they are treated.
I believe it is widespread as all get out. It's what I've been saying. If they think they can get away with it, they will. Unions won't let them get away with it (unless of course the proper palms are crossed with enough silver).


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## Gologit (Sep 10, 2011)

Samlock said:


> That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.
> 
> The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....
> 
> By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.


 
Great post. I had some relatives who were Wobblies, too. They were proud of it.
The Left Coast timber industry has a long history of labor strife. The unions in those days changed a lot of things for the better for the working man. Now? Not so much. They seem to have lost touch with the needs of the rank and file.
Over the years I've worked for three different companies that were union. They're all out of business now. I have to believe that one of the reasons for their demise was the union. Ridiculous work rules and a very unrealistic wage structure coupled with a sagging economy that the unions refused to recognize resulted in the companies shutting their doors and the workers being left to fend for themselves. But, even while unemployed, the workers were still encouraged to pay their union dues.


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## one.man.band (Sep 10, 2011)

opinions vary as seen in all the previous posts.

most if not all folks in a union are middle class. the middle class took the hit in the mortgage crisis, losing homes. then wound up usings savings to try to save their homes. finally losing there jobs altogether. middle class pays most of taxes, more so than the rich, while the poorer folk get taken care of. 

now it seems that the working man is blamed for creating all the problems. we want to make a decent wage to keep our home, send a kid to college, and maybe someday......if we can ever afford it, retire. 

took a union job over 22 years ago. pay was just over 1/2 of wage compared to non-union folks doing same job. did this not to be rich, but to provide for family: with job security, health benefits and a reasonable pension. watched as folks who had higher positions retired through the years, and when they did their job position retired with them. now the job was not available for anyone. watched, how every five years during contract time, there was no money for raises, and/or employer share of health insurance. stuck with it for job security. saw the waste in hiring temporary non-union workers standing right next to me, making almost twice my wage, because there were not enough permanent employees left for the workload. again i stuck withwith it for job security.

those temporary worker's pay rates were higher because they did not contribute towards a pension, received no health insurance, dental or eyecare. company said they were cheaper in the long run. 

its all akin to a humongous hardware chain moving into a city. all the local hardware stores that actually employed folks who knew and could give advise, eventually shut down. they could not compete with paying taxes on inventory while the warehouse style stores get away with paying none on their in-store stock. once all the local hardware stores are gone.....then the single warehouse store can charge whatever they want for goods with no competition.

thats what is happening to the union middle class.

if there are no unions....say goodbye to something called the weekend; healthcare benefits; pension; etc. no competition. when there are 50 people competing for a single job, does anyone think that that job will have good pay? .......when the company will hire one of those 50 who is willing to work for peanuts. 

wonder why there are no jobs available.

my 2 cents.


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## ihookem (Sep 10, 2011)

"But even while unemployed workers were encouraged to pay union dues." Been there, and refused to pay my union dues when layed off. They yanked my insurance card after they already gave me the card assuring me I have 3 months left. Got the letter Dec. 24, 2004 stating I no longer have insurance with them and any claim made after Nov. 30, 2004 will not be covered. So If I had a heart attack I would not have insurance. NICE. That was the end of my carpenters union Local 344 . I'm sure they will have some lame excuse when I start to claim my pension too. Got real tired of them telling me I better vote for AL Gore too. I am even more disturbed at the union THUGS that raided the port last week, vandalizing and taking security guards hostage. And don't even get me started the way the teachers union acted this spring here in Wisconsin. I have nothing good to say about unions. If america could get back half the jobs the unions killed we would have more work than we need and demand for "good hard workers" would would raise wages to what unions are paying anyway. I know as for me I when I went self employed I made a little less per hr. but had twice the hrs. so I raised my wages 8 bucks an hr and was making same per hr as union, and way more hrs. Just my experience. 
Now 3 of the 4 union shops I worked for are gone. The last one is doing very well however.


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