# English Ivy Troubles



## UnityArborist (Oct 3, 2009)

I have a job that requires the removal of English ivy off two Big Leaf maples. Pulling the vines is one thing, but I would like some input on killing the stuff. Should I treat the vines with a herbicide? If i did would the close proximity of the Ivy roots to the Maple cause a herbicide to kill the tree roots as well? ???IS THERE ANY WAY TO STOP THIS STUFF?????


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## jrietkerk (Oct 3, 2009)

cut the ivy near the base, clear the area around the ivy stumps, drill holes and brush/spray your herbicide of choice (a nice roundup diluton works good, and is supposed to be systemic - the ivy roots won't be grafted to the maple roots, much. . ) Foliar herbicides don't seem to do much, as the leaves are so waxy and tough. Carve off as much ivy foliage from the tree as you like, but leave any larger ivy stems that are strongly attached to the maple, as the 'suckers' will peel off the bark. Leave it to die and dry for a season or 2 and then come back and peel off the remainder. 

Ivy is tough - the key is persistance and thoroughness in removing it on the ground. Prioritize the work, and quality over quantity. There are many success stories for ivy control in the PNW, clearing it from forest stands and parks, so it can be beaten. If only you could eat it, like the Kudzu. .


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## dingeryote (Oct 3, 2009)

As noted above, cut it close to ground and coat every stub with Glyphosate(Round up) at the highest concentration you can find.

The trick is to get the vine to take it in and kill it at the roots.
This time of year you stand a good chance of doing just, that as the roots store up for dormancy.

Whatever ya do steer clear of 2-4-D, and any Herbicide that uses 2-4-D in combination with others such as Tordon,Crossbow etc..

2-4-D works it's way to the OUTSIDE of the roots, and can cross contaminate non targets roots that are intermingled.

If ya trace back several vines deep enough, you'll find a master runner where the little vines terminate. If you can, concentrate on these with the herbicide. Ya might not get 100% kill with glyphosate, but 2-3 shots will eventually kill 'em all, without killing the desireables.


Best of luck to ya!!
I have been fighting Grapes and Virginia creeper forever it seems.
Don't let the vines see ya frustrated...or they win! LOL!!!


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## southsoundtree (Oct 3, 2009)

its important to apply the herbicide to the cut vine as soon as possible, cut-apply, cut-apply, cut-apply for the best results, as some plants will close off the vessels soon after cutting. When I did invasive work on Tamarisk, tamarix sp., the rule of thumb was no more than 5 minutes between cut and application, the sooner the better. Whether this will apply to E.I., I can't say, but it can't hurt, nor take much longer than cutting all then applying, plus you know that you have not missed any.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 3, 2009)

southsoundtree said:


> its important to apply the herbicide to the cut vine as soon as possible, cut-apply, cut-apply... When I did invasive work on Tamarisk, tamarix sp., the rule of thumb was no more than 5 minutes between cut and application, the sooner the better.



WiDNR did a study with Buckthorn and Honeysuckle and the threshold was 20 min after cutting the control droppe from 90% to around 30%.

What we do is have 3 guys cutting and one doing a stump paint with died generic glyphosate mineral oil. Some use hort oil, but I think it is too spendy for the application. Some use diesel, which stinks too much for me.


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## pdqdl (Oct 3, 2009)

Can you make a mess, then wait for good results?

Pull as much of the vines away from the trunk as you can, leaving the roots attached. Spray (foliar application) a strong solution of Roundup onto the vines at the ground level, using an excellent (high dollar $$) surfactant. There are surfactants that will actually assist the transport of herbicides through the bark of trees, so don't spray the tree trunk. KILL the vines first, then cut them out after they have died. Wait a week or two to observe the results.

Leaving as much foliar surface available for absorbing the spray will be the most effective way to kill all the vines.

It would accelerate the kill considerably to add some 2,4-D products to the mix, but only at the rate you would apply to a lawn. Then the tree will be safe. Overdose at much greater risk.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 4, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Pull as much of the vines away from the trunk as you can, leaving the roots attached. Spray (foliar application) a strong solution of Roundup onto the vines at the ground level, using an excellent (high dollar $$) surfactant.



How do you spray the vies with bark oil and not get the trunk?

I've had good kill rates with stump painting grape, our worst vine here, and heard good things about bittersweet.

I'd be leery about spraying barkoil/glyphosate around a tree I want to save.


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## dingeryote (Oct 4, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> How do you spray the vies with bark oil and not get the trunk?
> 
> I've had good kill rates with stump painting grape, our worst vine here, and heard good things about bittersweet.
> 
> I'd be leery about spraying barkoil/glyphosate around a tree I want to save.



John Paul,

I am not sure about which surficant others are using, but "Cropsmart" brand glypho already has a good surficant in the product, and does not seem to penetrate bark or slightly hardened over new growth.

I can spray at 3qt per acre rates right up to and on the bases of blueberry canes, and on all of the dadgum Sassafrass, cherry and Maple suckers that are trying to grow in the rows, without knocking things back at all, which is a good thing for my applications. 

"Surf Ac" is another surficant that dosn't seem to penetrate bark much, as I have used it by the case with both Glyphosate and glufosinate without knocking back the desireables, and it is very economical....cheaper than diesel.

Check with your local ag supplier and see what other options ya might have, and ask what the orchard guys are using.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 4, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> There are surfactants that will actually assist the transport of herbicides through the bark of trees, so don't spray the tree trunk.



I actually cut out too much of his quote. he was talking about using a bark penetrant on vines against tree stems.



dingeryote said:


> John Paul,
> 
> I am not sure about which surficant others are using, but "Cropsmart" brand glypho already has a good surfactant in the product, and does not seem to penetrate bark or slightly hardened over new growth.
> 
> "Surf Ac" is another surficant that dosn't seem to penetrate bark much, as I have used it by the case with both Glyphosate and glufosinate without knocking back the desireables, and it is very economical....cheaper than diesel.



I hate using diesel, just from the stink. There is a difference between an orchard buying hort oil and a small operator, with economy of scale. Though it has been a long time since I've priced anything but premixed herbi, I've heard that there are cheap mineral oils that do not have the same standard of purification as good hort oil.

Of course *I* do not spray for-hire any more since I let my cert expire!


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## dingeryote (Oct 4, 2009)

LOL!!!
Letting that Cert expire might be a good thing in the long run.

The "New EPA" has gone bat#### crazy on what is and isn't "point of pollution", right down to each nozzle on an ag Spray rig, or wand nozzle on one of your backpack sprayers.. I can see where in a few years of this bunch of idiots, that compliance will cost more than any business potential or more.

As for the cost on crop oil/surficant, I think I'm paying like $8 a Gallon when bought with all the other stuff each year, and just a buck or two more for an extra case here and there, and it's concentrated like mad so ya don't need much at all in comparison to non engineered Surficant.

Most Ag chem suppliers don't cut big breaks anymore for volume, as the business has gotten to be cut throat at all levels thanks to the net, and retail outlets like TSC trying to muscle in on the small volume market.

It is fascinating that GV closes off so quickly, and I wondered about that.
It's good stuff to know.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 4, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> It is fascinating that GV closes off so quickly, and I wondered about that. It's good stuff to know.



Some fascinating stuff you can find on the internet by tweaking a few searches.


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## treeseer (Oct 4, 2009)

Using a pick and hand-pulling the ivy roots is very doable if soil is wet--and it's always wet in OR, right?

then there is less chemical hassle or concern re poisoning the maple.


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## pdqdl (Oct 5, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> How do you spray the vies with bark oil and not get the trunk?
> 
> I've had good kill rates with stump painting grape, our worst vine here, and heard good things about bittersweet.
> 
> I'd be leery about spraying barkoil/glyphosate around a tree I want to save.



I don't think you caught my meaning. Pull the vines OFF the tree, leave them dangling-drooping on the ground beneath the tree. DON"T pull them up by the roots. Once they are off the tree, THEN spray everything on the ground around the tree. It looks messy, but it allows you to spray ruthlessly with no fear of killing the tree. Come back much later to grub them out AFTER they have all died. Messy, slow, but effective.

It's even pretty safe to spray roundup onto vines climbing up the tree, if you don't add the high quality surfactant and you don't spray into the foliage of the trees. I have successfully sprayed Tordon (clearly, NOT safe to do) onto poison ivy climbing up trees without killing the trees. Granted, that is a risky maneuver, but the customer was advised of the risk and was willing to risk the trees. They were not willing to pull the vines and deal with them in a more conventional way.

The original comment from jrietkerk was that there was no way to get good kill because of waxy cuticle on the offensive plants. I was just pointing out that there IS a way to get good control. BTW: $8.00 crop oil is not the type of surfactant I was referring to. More like $40-60 per gallon for a premium surfactant. And NO, the surfactant included in almost all the glyphosate is not the good stuff.


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## flxblx (Oct 6, 2009)

dingeryote said:


> John Paul,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there a generic version of glufosinate available???


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## dingeryote (Oct 6, 2009)

flxblx said:


> Is there a generic version of glufosinate available???



Not yet, but will be in a couple years I hope.

Dadgum Rely is expensive as hell, but there is no replacement except evil old Paraquat.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## pdqdl (Oct 7, 2009)

Paraquat really wouldn't do you any good on ivy, anyway. It is very similar in performance to Diquat, still available as "Reward". Both herbicides cause overnight dessication and browning of the foliage, but they don't kill the plant systemically. Most plants will re-grow from the roots as strong as ever. Woody vegetation just grows more leaves.

That was the main appeal of Paraquat: FAST browning, it made it impractical for the marajuana growers to harvest and sell product after the DEA sprayed it with their helicopter. Then it dried out real fast and the DEA could burn it easily, if they wanted to make sure that nobody got it. Usually, they sprayed and ran, with the leaves crumbling up and falling off within a week.


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## pdqdl (Oct 7, 2009)

From Wikipedia: 

_"Glufosinate or its ammonium salt DL-phosphinotricin is an active ingredient in several nonselective systemic herbicides - Basta, Rely, Finale, Challenge and Liberty. It interferes with the biosynthetic pathway of the amino acid glutamine and with ammonia detoxification."_

I have used Liberty before, it worked better than Roundup, IMO. Very effective kill! My wife got some free samples when she worked for Farmland Industries, otherwise I would never have had any reason to try it out.


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## flxblx (Oct 7, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> _"Glufosinate or its ammonium salt DL-phosphinotricin is an active ingredient in several nonselective systemic herbicides - Basta, Rely, Finale, Challenge and Liberty. It interferes with the biosynthetic pathway of the amino acid glutamine and with ammonia detoxification."_
> 
> I have used Liberty before, it worked better than Roundup, IMO. Very effective kill! My wife got some free samples when she worked for Farmland Industries, otherwise I would never have had any reason to try it out.



I have used Liberty in the past. The formulation was strengthened this year and renamed Ignite. It is not a systemic herbicide but it does give a much quicker kill than glyphosate.

Rely is 11.3% glufosinate and Ignite is 25.4%.

Sort of hijacked this thread; just had never heard of Basta, Rely, Finale or Challenge. Thought maybe there was a generic available.


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 7, 2009)

Ivy especially english ivy is hand work on or near trees when it is cut at the base allow about ten days for it to let go , and as far as the roots aswell hand pulling works very well with no chance of damage from chemicals , English ivy will die if you run it over with a machine or walk on it for long periods of time its not as tough as soom say..


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## treeclimber101 (Oct 7, 2009)

A sod cutter also works great in large open areas where tree roots are not an obstacle..


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## pdqdl (Oct 7, 2009)

Shucks, why limit your options!

Rototillers get the roots better than anything else. Let 'er rip!


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