# Top-Line Hitch



## topndrop (Feb 20, 2005)

Does anyone have anythoughts as to the number of wraps to be used in a properly tied Top-Line Hitch? I personally use two top and two bottom wraps and I have never had it fail to sieze when weight was applied to it. However, one of our riggers insists that a "properly" tied hitch should have three bottom and two top wraps to provide adequate protection in event of a fall.

Cooments as always are appreciated.


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## Stumper (Feb 20, 2005)

The knot is actually named the TAUTLINE Hitch. Proper wrap counts depend upon the rope used and the climber's weight.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

There are variations of the tauntline.


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## clearance (Feb 20, 2005)

two down one up. always a figure 8 in the tail, I am 195lbs w/o equipment. If it really matters two up two down is the official knot, here anyways. Always a figure 8 in the tail.


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## Ny finest (Feb 20, 2005)

IN NY its twodown,two up.OSHA rules I guess.I use the"suicide knot"as its called up here(two under,one over).I weigh 165 and I cant fuction on the two&twne guy I know uses a 3&3 and swears nothing else is safe.But always the 8 in the tail


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## topnotchtree (Feb 20, 2005)

We are required by the company to tie taunt line hitch with 2 up and 2 down. On a side note, I highly recommend anyone still using the taunt line to at least look into and try the blakes hitch. I used taunt line to climb with for ten years or so. Then I was showed the blakes, and thats all I use now.


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## glens (Feb 20, 2005)

Do any of you guys ever <i>read</i>?&nbsp; The literature talks about a <b>tautline</b> but nothing about "tau<u>n</u>tline" or "top line" hitches.&nbsp; Not to mention that you've seen them properly addressed here...


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## jason j ladue (Feb 20, 2005)

just use a blake's hitch. it wont roll out. i fell (hard) on a blake's recently, and i feel more now than ever that it is bullet proof. it may glaze your line if you rappel extensively. but thats o.k. use a split tail-line on the same clip as your life line. i know this is a bit unorthodox compared to the systems alot of guy here use (slack tenders and whatnot)- but that's o.k. too. ive put it to extreme testing and it passes w/ flying colors. love that knot. or checkout www.mytreelessons.com :angel: great knots there.


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## tnttreeman (Feb 20, 2005)

Forget the tautline and use the blake's hitch. I fell one time on tautline and the knot just would knot catch. Fell about 30 feet before I could stop myself with my hands on the rope. Talk about a good case of rope burn! From then on out it's been the blake's and never another incident. You'll thank yourself from day one. Also, it doesn't tighten up so tight that you can't hardly move it. Can't say that for tautline.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

tnttreeman said:


> I fell one time on tautline and the knot just would knot catch. Fell about 30 feet before I could stop myself with my hands on the rope.




I've taken at least two spills on my TL, and she held up just fine. But a TL has to be set and dressed moreso than other hitches. When you respect that, she'll never fail ya.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 20, 2005)

the only advantage i can in the blakes over the tl is that it does not require tending or adjustment. the guy who taught me to climb on a rope/opened my eyes to the real world of tree climbing, is old-school. he has like 48yrs exp or some like that. he uses the tl i suppose its all in the way you use it. personal preference i guess. in fact he only uses three wraps too. most people will talk bad about that knot though (sorry butch,nothin personal). i always used four


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## P_woozel (Feb 20, 2005)

Forget about those archaic hitches, go with a v.t. its very adjustable works on wet, dry, new, old 7/16"-3/4" lines. you can add or subtract wraps/finger traps as conditions require.


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

You can't tie it with one hand.


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## Ny finest (Feb 20, 2005)

Anybody got a diagram of a blake's?I've never seen one before(at least that I can recall)


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## Stumper (Feb 20, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> You can't tie it with one hand.




Would you wish to make a wager?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 20, 2005)

Hmmmm.


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## Ax-man (Feb 20, 2005)

Think it is time for another climbing hitch poll?? 

I bet the old school tautline guys would have the edge this time around, over the progressive climbers who use a Distel or VT. Last time it was a dead even split, do we even have seventy climbers left here??

Larry


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## Lumberjack (Feb 21, 2005)

I use a VT 4 over 3. If I were to use a old hitch it would deff be the blakes.


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## tinman44 (Feb 21, 2005)

ok so maybe this isnt the best drawling but i tried

also note the other day i had my blakes hitch sieze so i pulled up my running end and used it


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## jamie (Feb 21, 2005)

*one handed*

why would you need to tie it with one hand? in the tree mine is always tied on a split tail. so unless i cut my split tail im fine. i only need to be able to operate carabiners one handed. that is unless you always tie it on your tail


jamie


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## NeTree (Feb 21, 2005)

In the rare event I use a tlh, I go two over, two under. But then... I'm 235#.

Mostly, I use either a blakes or a Distel. And almost never on the tail of my line, but on a split-tail.


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## topndrop (Feb 21, 2005)

Wow... I wondered if I would even get one or two responses to this question. Anyway, let me give you a bit more info and see if I can narrow this down a bit. First, I am about 175 lbs. with out gear. Generally I would never rappell out of a tree using this hitch (I carry a decender for this purpose). Also I tie into the tree with a lanyard as back up when ever time and circumstances allow. The fellow that taught me to climb is recognised as one of the best climbers in Florida and he swears by the two and two, but our rigger has been doing his job for 22 years WITHOUT an accident. As for the name - "Top-Line Hitch", as I understand it, Taut-Line Hitch is the correct name (sorry, I misunderstood the name - heavy Southern accents down here + cigar in mouth = "Top-Line Hitch" )
Thanks for all the input - Especially to Jason for the web site address.
BTW - M.B., our rigger CAN tie it with one hand... faster than I can with both...


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## topndrop (Feb 21, 2005)

Hey, M.B., sorry, also I ALWAYS put a figure eight in the tail of all my hitches... just to be sure.


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## a_lopa (Feb 21, 2005)

but can you tie it behind your back,does anyone just use a english prussick loop?


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 21, 2005)

More


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 21, 2005)

If'n ya look hard; you can see that even though the Blake's supports on a single leg to the saddle from the bottom of it's 4 turn coil, that it also crosses the loaded leg over the leg going to the top of the coil to pull on it too. i think this places a Blake's more with all the rest of the hitches that pull thier 4 coils closed all at once, from top and bottom. This kinda leaves the Taughtline alone as far as mechanics i think, save for the Tarbuck(Natural fiber rope era friction hitch, not pictured); that just majorly pull a round turn closed i think.


Friction Hitch Lineup at MTL 

New Friction Hitch Page in Progress at MTL 

Mark Adams did an excellent article on these hitches in Oct. 04 Arborist News-Climber's Corner that Tom/Mark have archived with several other pieces of theirs under "Articles". He teased about a followup article too, that i hope he comes thru with.

When making the Blake's it is easy to make a SuiSlide instead; just by the final move with the bitter end/working tail. The way that happens, is a common concept in a few of our working lacings to get the most secured pinch and hold on to the bitter end most securely, to give the lacing most security. By both the amount of pressure direction and the direction of rotation. Which on a 'lifeline'/sliding/frition hitch is of course of utmost importance. Likewise any open tailed friction hitch (one that both legs of friction hitch do not connect to saddle) needs a stopper knot, even though Blake's does sit on it's own tail/bitter end faithfully like an anchor hitch. 

i think the sliding hitch strategy works cuz' when you pull down on the hitch in DdRT, you are actually extending that leg of line, and the more static leg of line to saddle, ttries to take the load. Just as it would if it's partner leg was tearing, more elastic, or being lowered. The static leg will take the load. So the hitch loosens up as it isn't loaded, then slides. If, we do the same on SRT, there is no other line to switch the weight to, so as we push down on the top coils, the bottom ones just sieze more to the line in response. For so much hold is needed to support, the system tries to support, so the loosened top coils need the bottom ones to grip tighter to make up the diffeance, and so they do. In DdRT only half the weight is on hitch to start, then weight swithces to static leg, then you are slidning/not supported totally, so pull on hitch is less than 1/2 weight. The softer loading, making the differance in the ability to slide. The 4 coils giving sure, death grip to stop, the preceding buffer (in all but Blake's), keeping the coils from siezing to the line etc. All in concert to not overload friction hitch 4 coil choke death grip to siezing on the line.

The non-Tautline hitches work on a base of 4 continuous gripping coils on top i think. Blake's unique, for it just disturbs the bottom 2 coils bite, allowing slide, as weight switches to the static leg/dead ended to saddle in DdRT. The 4 and 6 coil prusiks, bite more and are presented more for completeness. The rest of the friction hitches shown have a 4 coil death grip on line, but the loading preceded by another single choking coil. To buffer loading to the 4 coil death grip, that could sieze; but the preceding buffer keeps the forces in the more manageable powerband of performance for the friction hitch. VT family giving a buffering list of line bends, rather than the single choking coil. If the preceding coil buffer was not a simple turn, but the much, much better round turn strategy, it would be too good; have too much grip. The much lesser reliable single turn; thereby finding place here by definition.

It should be easy to learn new hitches, if they are based off of the same forms, with slight mechanical alteration to taste with this view.

With a lanyard on, i generally have 2 free hands. A distel so similar to tautline in lacing(but not mechanics), should be as likely a candidate for a 1 handed tie; save for linking last leg to saddle.


Hidden Button to enlarge photos below

:alien:

.


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## DDM (Feb 21, 2005)

Rocky was up here about 2 yrs ago and Taught me the Distel.I havent even Used any other Climbing hitch since. Much easier to advance especially after a short descent.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 21, 2005)

DDM said:


> Rocky was up here about 2 yrs ago and Taught me the Distel.I havent even Used any other Climbing hitch since. Much easier to advance especially after a short descent.



that one looks like alot of tying , to me.


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## NeTree (Feb 21, 2005)

Piece of cake.


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## Stumper (Feb 21, 2005)

Jason J., The loops are permanent knots. What does that leave? An inverted 4/1 tautline. Tain't nothin' to it but it works about a dozen times better.


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## Brock2saws (Feb 21, 2005)

Stumper said:


> Jason J., The loops are permanent knots. What does that leave? An inverted 4/1 tautline. Tain't nothin' to it but it works about a dozen times better.



Amen.


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## NYSawBoss (Feb 21, 2005)

I'm currently using the blakes and loving it. I made a small prussik out of some small diameter parachute cord and attach a mini biner to that and then clip in my micro pulley. 9 times out of 10 i am footlocking the tail of my rope so the micro pulley feed the slack through the knot...i never have to touch it. I want to try the distel with 4 over 1 under..anyone know what length cord i should get and what diameter to function with 1/2 and 7/16 line?? thanks a lot. 

tony


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 21, 2005)

Stumper said:


> Jason J., The loops are permanent knots. What does that leave? An inverted 4/1 tautline. Tain't nothin' to it but it works about a dozen times better.



And they are fisherman's knots too, which are double turn overhand's

I'm on a braided VT (Kenny, that's something like valdutant, though my spelling of it's only a little etter then yours) on 3/8 PMI kevlar covered kernmantle. I use it because it does not melt, nor does it mark the climbing line on a fast rap. (Brian turned me on to it, who got it from bigjohn)

Anyone who gives the new closed hitches a try, long enough to get past the learning/confidance curve, will not go back to a standard open hitch.

When I was using regular 5/16 double braid for my VT I was paying around 1.30 for the hitch, as apposed to 16.00 for a spliced 16-strand split tail, (though I have spliced a few of my own of those too)


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## jason j ladue (Feb 21, 2005)

it's a pretty knot, but what if you have to re-tie. for instance. today my climb line got hung up in a couple limbs limbs about 10' below me and i couldnt pull it out unless i pulled up the entire 120' on the standing end, or go down and work my line free. so i undid the blakes and simply pulled the running end out of the snag- came right out. its super easy n quick to undo the tie it back up. from what i gather looking at your hitch you have to undo fishermans then that inverted tl then redo them again. i guess you could just open the clip to take the fishermans off, but the you stll have to work through the hitch. i hope this is making _some _ sense. do you leave the hitch attatched to the climb line at all times? even when you're not woworking? i guess i just dont quite understand how it works.  it seems like youd have to tie two knots instead of one... and the fishermans bend is pretty hard to undo once its been loaded up, no? i know alot of guys use the vt, so there must be _something _ to it, but i just dont get it yet. im thoroughly pleased w/ the blakes for now. it is a slick knot. very efficient. to each his own i spose.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 21, 2005)

wait! i (think) i get it! the light just went on... you leave the fishermans knots and just pull the line through the loops?


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## Ny finest (Feb 21, 2005)

I was raised tautline.but some of those knots are cool!!!I can't believe I've never seen someone using the blake's,but I have seen the distel and Vt.The only problem I got with those is you have to haul all this extra crap around.Is it really worth it?Is it more comfortable or just safer?I was taught by old school folks(a couple of Native Americans who at fifty can schock the heck out of me)but am never too set in my ways to improve.Gimme the 411.


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## TREEWRK (Feb 21, 2005)

*never*

tnt have been climbing for 7yrs and never had problem with tauntline I
know guys who use Blakes hitch just matter of prefrence do you use split tail
also I'm old school here


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## Ny finest (Feb 21, 2005)

Split tail 'biners ect.And if you ever haver to use two ropes you got to carry double.I don't know much of the setup I was trying to get some insight


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## Stumper (Feb 21, 2005)

Jason J., There are multiple ways to do this but I'll try to explain what I do.The Scaffold knots (Double fisherman's loops) are permanent. They choke onto the Biner. The biner spine side of the cord stays on the biner. The gate side slides off for tying/untying. The Scaffold knotted end is treated lsimply as the end of the rope. Form the wraps, tuck the end through and slip the loop back onto the biner. Tah dah. The end of the climbing line is on another 'biner. I tie the hitch before I start to climb.If I am ascending via a secured free climb I then have my normal lanyard plus what amounts to 100' or 120' adjustable lanyard. If I set a line first then the hitch is still tied before I leave the ground. If I decide to recrotch while in the tree I can unclip and throw my line through the new crotch. It is very very rare for me to retie the hitch while in the tree but if I need too it isn't a big deal-just lanyard in and do it. I have never understood the complaints about "what if you drop the cord?". If you do you can still tie a Tautline or Blakes with the tail of your rope. If I decide I need a secondary tie in with my tail how I do that doesn't change at all.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 21, 2005)

I retie my VT frequently

like has been said, the terminal knots are perminent.

As with any knot, once you ge the hang of it, you just flip it together, the VT is just trun down 3-4 times and then braid the rest of it.

Is it worth it? All i can sy is "one hand slack tending". Coming off a limbwalk, or pulling myself up a short ascent hand ove hand, I can hold on with one hand and pull all the slack out with the other.

The whn going down I can release the hitch with two fingers, wehn I'm making a long swing and want to run out some line on the fly, it's real smooth.

As Justin does, if i need to double crotch, then it's a taughtline on my tail. Big trees I may carry a second tress set, but not all the time. Like Tom (but to a lesser degree), I've been known to have some funky set-ups in big trees.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

cool! thanks guys. im sure ill give it a whirl one of these days. im always open to experimentation/advice.


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## hooks (Feb 22, 2005)

I use 2down 1 up. Never had a problem.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 22, 2005)

If'n, ya never ride a Cadillac; ya will never really be able to truly judge it against your 30 year olde Pinto. Yes, Tom, the one with the 8-track as OEM package!!

Though, the cost of upgrade here is really nothing; to drive several different Cadillacs all day, to make work a nicer place to be.

The Icicle also has self tending properties, like a Knut and TK; as does a VT with a Knut or TK finish (half hitch or marl respectively). Favoring the 'finish' coming fronmthe top coil, as is also the differance of the self tending class. The Icicle finish on the VT din't werk for me to (s)well for self tending properties (no pulley/ carabiner/snap needed below hitch to advance it one handed). 

i've seen some referance to not being able to try 'advanced' friction hitch; until ya can buys a micro pulley etc. Any of the hitches (even ye olde taut line) can be used with or without a 'knot tender'; that is a seperate issue. Many of those that go forward with the more 'Cadillac' hitches, also are tweaking enough to make everything easier, to install a hitch tender too. Also, some play with keychain carabiners etc.; for this position/purpose does not have a required strength; it is not part of the chain of support; is not required for support, just a nice option. Good thing, cuz this position can be about nose bridge high sometimes; i never thought that would be good place fer big, heavy, metal, carabiner etc.!

i think that besides Tautline/Tarbuck, and 4/6 coil standard prusiks; the friction hitches presented are basically all the same. A 4coil/double roundturn that pulls close from both ends, and has a previous buffer strategy to not load the 4 coils so much as to sieze (but the positive stop is right there). The Blake's taking a small detour, in that it jsut doesn't let the lower 2 coils sieze to line as top coils are distrubed.

Or, sometin like that...


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## lync (Feb 23, 2005)

V.t, never having to advance your knot with your left hand. Self feeds slack out once you get enough rope below you. takes 20 seconds to tie once a climb. What else is there to say.

Corey


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## topndrop (Feb 24, 2005)

Tried the Blake's today and it seemed to work well enough. I really think there should be a faster way to redirect than this...
I see some of the self-tending rigs here on AS in photos, but really have no idea if they would work out for me as mostly we are doing removals. I ocasionally get to "free-climb"... (w/o spikes) to do trim work and a self-tender would help as I could move more freely through the tree thus cutting down on the time spent playing with the rig. 
Is there a way to fashion a self-tender from cord somehow?


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## glens (Feb 24, 2005)

Search the site for "knut"


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## jamie (Feb 24, 2005)

*kit*

ive bought myself my own ropes as i was getting sick of the bungee qualities of teh multiplait my boss supplied, tried a 4 wrap prussic and it didnt bite, a 4/1 distel was great, advanced easily, descended when the hitch was touched, dropped like a stone when held. on returning from a limb walk i was more stable as i wasnt putting in a lot of effort breaking the hitch and advancing it.

jamie


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## lxt (Mar 20, 2005)

I Personally Use The Tautline, Have Used The Blakes Hitch But Ill Tell Ya The I`d By Petzl Is Really Cool Expensive But I Dont Change Rope Ends And The Wear N Tear Is Almost None..... Doug Lxt.................


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## Trignog (Mar 20, 2005)

Rope on rope suits me fine, you don't have to worry if your gizmo is loaded correctly, although gizmos are cool you can do lot of neat stuf with them.I'm just jealous I guess.


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## tinman44 (Mar 20, 2005)

lxt said:


> I Personally Use The Tautline, Have Used The Blakes Hitch But Ill Tell Ya The I`d By Petzl Is Really Cool Expensive But I Dont Change Rope Ends And The Wear N Tear Is Almost None..... Doug Lxt.................



does the ID successfully replace the blakes hitch? i use blakes and i've had it bind up a few times, so i want a mechanical replacement


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## Lumberjack (Mar 20, 2005)

tinman44 said:


> does the ID successfully replace the blakes hitch? i use blakes and i've had it bind up a few times, so i want a mechanical replacement




The ID is for SRT not DdRT. It wont work very well for DdRT (traditional method).


The lockjack by ART would be a good place to look for a mechanical replacement to your blakes, I personally use a VT for DdRT and an ID for working off of SRT.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 20, 2005)

BostonBull said:


> So after you tie your figure eight from the carabiner attched to the D rings on your saddle would you tie a bowline onto this carabiner then tie this knot around your live side of climbing line?



No.







I use a VT, not a distel.

I use a spliced eye not a knot such as an figure 8 knot or a bowline. 

What your saying is hard to follow, does the pic answer your question?


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 20, 2005)

When I was at Expo in Long Beach I got a new climbing tool called the Unicender. It works as a replacement for a friction hitch on DdRT like the Lockjack BUT!!! it works equally well on SRT!!! You guys know how happy this makes me 

I've written up a bit of a review and there are pictures too.

I had the opportunity to climb on the Unicender today.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 21, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> I've written up a bit of a review and there are pictures too.


lets see em. 
btw good to see you around. just noticed you're back!


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## glens (Mar 21, 2005)

Hahaha!&nbsp; The pics and review exist elsewhere...


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