# is it just me, or am i not getting paid enough



## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

hello, 

i've been a member for a little while now, but i dont post very often. in this case i feel like i could use some peer advise.

this is my brief backround, i worked for the forest service for 2 seasons as a wildland firefighter (which i loved and did very well at) while attending the local community college. When i started looking for full-time all year work i was encouraged to seek a permanent job with the forest service, but i came to really love the work we did with trees in our home forest, so i decided to persue the route of professional tree care. I first got a job doing tree work at a local ranch that my rock/ice climbing partner manages doing hazardous tree removals (large inconvienent cottonwood trees. I own three of my own professional grade chainsaws, all of my own climbing equipment, and a fair amount of rigging equipment. I worked at the ranch for about 6 months when i saw two local tree companies hiring climbers. i was offered a job by both companies and i took the one i have because they do all of the utility line clearance in our area so the work is very consistant. after seiing that i wasn't dangerrous with a chainsaw and was willing to climb trees he cut me loose for two weeks in the bucket taking 7 100+ ft cottonwoods around newly remodeled historic ranch cabins. this is when he first started not coming to work. flash forward now i've been working here for just under a year now and i do all climbing power line or no power line, i work with one other guy thats 53 who has worked ther for 12 years, but is pretty afraid of heights so i finish most of his trees for him so he really not a great bucket operator, but between the two of us we get the job done. my boss never comes to work and when he does he sits in his truck. ive done all of my studing for isa arborist and became a chapter and regular member to get the discount on my exam (my boss offered to pay my test fee), but now that i told him i have my application all ready to go and all i need to turn it in is them to pay he's been stalling (important because im supossed to get a raise when i pass).

so i make 12.00 dollars an hour, keep in mind ive been working full-time jobs since i was 16 and i'm the kind of guy that when him and the other guy go #### off i clean up the whole job site regardless of having any help. I never complain at work because i love the work i do but this is a dangerous profession and i feel as though i being a hardworking professional i should get paid a fair wage. I by no means think i know even half of everything, but i've learned a lot very quickly and im very hardworking. hell i read about trees when im at home and i drive around town looking at trees on the weekend. Sorry for the rant, but is it just me or am i not getting paid enough for the amount of work im doing.

thanks for any replies

Richard


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## Tree Pig (Mar 29, 2012)

around here brush draggers start at around 12 and if they are decent ground guys usually get in the $15+ range. So I say your getting robbed... Are you getting any other benefits like health insurance, paid vacations ETC?


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## Bomber (Mar 29, 2012)

Line clearance contracts go to the company that gives the lowest bid. So that company usually has to find the cheapest labor to stay profitable. If you have such a care for trees I think you would be better suited to work for a company doing private and commercial properties. Customers that care about the health of trees as opposed to how far they can get it off of the service lines.


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

no health insurance or other bennefits (they said they do a retirement plan after 1 year, but if anything if i pay into it my checks will end up even smaller), they do one week paid vacation at christmas it was basically $300. I got a week off, but that doesnt help me catch up on bills and pay for my own isa test/membership. i just feel like with only having two guys, he should be ale to help us out a little rather than just taking advantage of the fact that i take a lot of pride in what i do, so i won't do a crappy job for 10, 11, or 12 bucks an hour. to top it off his exscuse for having to delay my test was because he and his wife are going on vacation for two weeks and leaving everything at work up to us. it just doesn't seem right, he has to be making plenty of money, his wife doesn't work and she just bought a new car (which meant we worked saturdays for a month after that)


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

we also do alot of private work as well, but you're right our utility contract this year was only for roughly 200,000. its all money to the utility company they dont care that what we do is dangerous (while they watch and say "there's no way in hell id climb that")


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## tbow388 (Mar 29, 2012)

*Sounds like*

Sounds like you work for a business man. He finds the jobs, you do the work. He is your employer!!

I am not sure what the pay rates are up in your area for your line of work. If you think you are not getting paid enough, find another employer. 
I am sure your current employer might be able to find a mexican do replace you cheaper. I know my boss can find someone better and cheaper than me. That's why I offer to mow his lawn and wash his car when we are not busy (and I have done so). I do work in a office so things are a bit different.

You might be better served opening your own business. Then after years of work, you can buy your Homemaker wife a new car.

I prefer to work for someone.

All of this being said. I say work your butt off for the guy so he can get his wife a new house with a pool also. 
If you are as hard of a worker and good at your job as you say. Someone will see your efforts and give you a raise or offer you a better paying job.

I just hope you can see the point I am making.


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

tbow,

i definitely see your point and that's why i bite my toungue at work and continue to work hard. i actually get along very well with my boss and he knows that i work hard he just doesn't seem into monetary rewards, hahahaha. your suggestions are great and they are the things that i have been going over in my head. i was so happy to have my job at first because i thought hey i can kick a** and get a raise at one point and know i feel like i've done all the right things, i show up to work with all of my own climbing equipment, and i even let him demo my saws from time to time. like i said this is most definitely a rant, but i dont think mexicans should be paid anything less than a liveable wage. everyone who works hard should be able to have self respect and feel as though they are not constantly struggling to get by. in my original post i said this is a professional job, i feel like if you dont want hacks and no good kids working for you then you have to pay accordingly. just my two cents


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## MarquisTree (Mar 29, 2012)

*willing to relocate?*

http://www.arboristsite.com/employment-forum/196708.htm#post3571176

Get ur cdl, sounds like ur worth twice what ur getting paid (in the boston area anyway, not sure what pay is like in your area)


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## Tree Pig (Mar 29, 2012)

tbow388 said:


> Sounds like you work for a business man. He finds the jobs, you do the work. He is your employer!!
> 
> I am not sure what the pay rates are up in your area for your line of work. If you think you are not getting paid enough, find another employer.
> I am sure your current employer might be able to find a mexican do replace you cheaper. I know my boss can find someone better and cheaper than me. That's why I offer to mow his lawn and wash his car when we are not busy (and I have done so). I do work in a office so things are a bit different.
> ...



I see the point your making... your total lack of self worth has relegated you to a under paid office worker who is brown nosing the boss so that that POS does not go replace him with an illegal. Sounds to me your part of the problem not the solution.

here you forgot your glasses


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## skinnyd (Mar 29, 2012)

If he wants to sit in his truck all day, he can.. You work for him, not the other way around. 

That said, it does sound like you are underpaid.


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

i definitely feel he has earned the right to sit in his truck or golf or do whatever, i dont even mind working saturdays to pay off their new car, my only objection is up to hiring me they always considered this job to require 3 people, but when i came on he stopped working and left just me and another guy and he won't hire a third person (which im fine with doing extra work), but i feel as though i should be compensated for working hard enough that he doesn't have to hire a third person to see production. I just figured there might be someone else on here who's been in the same boat with advise and to get a feel for what employers are willing to pay hardworking honest people. 

on a side note, the guy i work with wont climb so in the event i get hurt in a tree there isnt anyone to rescue me, i just think this warrants more than no benefits and 12.00 an hour. just my opinion, i have a lot of respect for what people in our industry do and i think they should get paid for doing hard dangerous work.

and for those asking about what the job market is like here, i have a friend who is a concrete finisher that makes 22.00 per hour and the price of gas has been between 3.30 and 3.40 per gallon of low grade

thanks for all of the replies so far, its given me a lot to think about.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2012)

Dang SOM you hit that right on the nose.

To the OP, you said that two companies offered you work. Is the second company still interested ? Will they make a better offer ? I start groundies at $10 ,and if they survive the first month, ( most don't ) I bump them to $12. A climber in training gets at least $15 and I have a climber that works on call for $25/hr ($100 minimum ). I would say that you are underpaid for around here, but can't say for your area. I used to work in Worland, at the airport, back about 1980, they treated me the same way.

Rick


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## Toddppm (Mar 29, 2012)

Sounds like you have no real experience and are just winging it with what you got. I think you'll do pretty good with another company with a crew of guys that know real tree work. It'll probably open your eyes to alot that you should know. 
Line clearance I don't think you'll move up very fast at all and not with a company that only has 2 employees.


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks Rick,

i could still go to work for the other company, but i have come to find out that they are responsible for much of the poorly trimmed dead trees in the area. Im starting to think that a move might be in order, so that i can stay with a reputable professional company and get paid a fair wage. im not looking to get rich, but as it is now i work really hard only to fall short at the end of the month when its time to pay bills. i was all about paying my dues at first, but now i just feel underappreciated. I would understand having short pay checks if the company isnt making money, but we work all year round.

Thanks,

Richard


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## superjunior (Mar 29, 2012)

Your not getting paid enough period. I'd have a talk with him, be honest and tell him exactly what's on your mind. See what he saise if he's not willing to budge then I'd start looking elsewhere


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

toddppm,

you're correct in that i have not been doing this for very long, but i have been reliable enough that he trusts me not to destroy property or kill trees. Im normally very humble and do not clain to have a vast amount of expirence, but what i do have is a love for trees, a hard work ethic, and most importantly tons of aptitude, I always ask questions and pay attention and when i encounter something new during the day the first thing i do when i come home is pull out the books and do internet searches in order to always be learning more. 

I've done first aid/cpr on my own time and i always try to catch the different forest service forestry seminars. i've studied thouroughly for my isa exam and will ultimately pay to take it myself if he is no longer willing to help. I definitely dont want to come accross as saying i am cocked locked and readt to rock for anything thrown at me, but i do feel as though i deserve better than what im currently recieving. what is comes down to is he makes more money because of my hard work, but pays me the same as what he's paid any other drunk or drug addicted groundie that wont even step off the ground.

My boss is a very skilled arborist and i have learned a lot from him.our company used to run two full crews but he said that it was too stressful and he couldn't find any descent help (probably because he believes that an expirienced certified arborist is worth about 15.00 an hour.


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

thanks super,

that is exactly what i plan on doing. 

Thanks to everyone for the great advise and input, i knew i did the right thing by seeking advise here from a community of peers. I really do believe this is one of the best jobs a guy could ask for. i get so excited when i get home at the end of the day and think about what i was able to acomplish.

Thanks,

Richard


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2012)

richard88,

Maybe you could 'make a difference' over at the other company. If you are telling the truth about being ready for the CA test and having the First Aid/CPR cert on your own, then you sound like a real go-getter to me. I think Todd may have been a bit hard on you because you are still in your first decade of treework, but so am I. 

I think I would go talk to the other company, see if they are open to improving the quality of their work. If they are old school in attitude as well as practice, well then you will need to look elsewhere.
If they would like to improve their reputation around town, then work a wage out and tell your present boss that you will be leaving in two weeks. Don't try to start a bidding war for your services, or quit your current job without notice. Leave on the best terms possible, you may find yourself asking for your old job back, or you may need a reference some day. It sounds like he has been good to you except for the money. Tell him that you like the job, but just can't afford to stay there. 
If you really have the skill set you claim, then I think you will be able to get a better paying job.

Rick


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Where is Sheridan, WY?



Southeast of Billings, Montana just across the state line if I remember correctly.

Rick


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks va-sawyer,

i appreciate the encouragement and i will most likely do just what you reccomended.

and you're correct on the location.

Thanks everyone, this is really helping me to gain some insight and figure out exactly how i would like to proceed with my career and do what's best for me and my very soon to be wife. i just want to go out and put in a hard days work and at the end of the day go home and not feel overwhelmed by finacial woes. I believe that hard working people are disapearing and what few are left should be appreciated and encouraged. I know this is very idealistic in todays world, but i know i've always appreciated the people around me that were willing to go the extra mile to help me succeed.

Thanks,

Richard


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2012)

I didn't realize you were making two bad life altering choices at the same time! Making a career of treework and getting married? You need to head for the closest nut house ASAP ! At first, I thought you were just a little off your rocker, like the rest of us. But, getting married too ? Good luck with that!

Rick

PS


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## richard88 (Mar 29, 2012)

you know it's funny because i often think she's crazy because she wants to marry a beer drinking (not heavily of course) rock climber/tree nerd, she asked me the other day when i got my ms192t if i loved my chainsaws more than her.....my simple answer was "baby i name all of my chainsaws after you" that scored me biiiiigggg points! I have to try to make up for all of the long boring conversations about the mountains i want to climb and full detail account of what i did at work that day.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2012)

You really should be in treework..... you are such a sap! Naming his saws after her.......... what will she think when he uses her name on an big ol' 880 ?

Rick


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## Bigus Termitius (Mar 29, 2012)

Get back to work!!


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## defensiblespace (Mar 29, 2012)

Have you tried asking for a raise? That sounds like the obvious first step to me?


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## david miller (Mar 30, 2012)

this battle between employee and er is as old as time itself.one fills he not showed enought apreaction. and the other trying to get the most for less. If your ready dont wait for him to pay for the test do it youself then get your CDL you have too make yourself valuable. and dont do anything to make him mad until ISA call him to verified your work and they will call.


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## david miller (Mar 30, 2012)

and one more thing you sound young, so it might be fun now but you have to look long term is this somthing you want to do in your 40 and 50


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 30, 2012)

I pay groundies 10-13, climbers 20 and up. Get that CA, whether he pays for it or not. Once you have that, will make u more desirable to him and others. Sounds like Marquis offered ya a job!


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## richard88 (Mar 30, 2012)

yeah, i have asked for a raise and he said he couldn't afford 

I will be pursuing my ca on my own, i just submitted my application and my personal payment as well as my cdl. My boss and i do get a long really well, so when it comes time for me to move on i will let him know how much i appreciate the opportunity he gave me to learn so much about this work and hopefully he'll understand and we can both move forward.

This has been a very insightful discussion for me.

Thanks Guys,

Richard


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## Sagetown (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm not an arborist, but I like reading about your experiences, and seems like the trend is- a guy in your field who is worth his salt, eventually starts up his own business. Especially so if he's being underpaid.


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## shooterschafer (Mar 30, 2012)

Hey I here all the trees up there in Wyoming only have limbs on 1 side due to that d##* Wyoming wind heh, We get that wind coming from the north here in No Co. drives me nuts ! I would ask for a raise!


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## Customcuts (Mar 30, 2012)

richard88 said:


> Thanks Rick,
> 
> i could still go to work for the other company, but i have come to find out that they are responsible for much of the poorly trimmed dead trees in the area. Im starting to think that a move might be in order, so that i can stay with a reputable professional company and get paid a fair wage. im not looking to get rich, but as it is now i work really hard only to fall short at the end of the month when its time to pay bills. i was all about paying my dues at first, but now i just feel underappreciated. I would understand having short pay checks if the company isnt making money, but we work all year round.
> 
> ...


. Too bad u don't live in my area, I pay ground guys ten to start and bump to 12 if they make it, and anyone who has a genuine passion for trees and doing good tree work is definitely a great asset to the company, I pay climbers at least 15+.I think u would do better going out on your own and doing residential. If I were u I would work there until I got up enough equipment to go out on ny own. And as long as u can bid the jobs fair and not screw itself u will do fine. Good luck man


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## husabud (Mar 30, 2012)

I just lost my ground man. I guess those little pills are more important than$20/ hr he was making. Come on out I'll put you to work. You climb too and are working toward CA, I'll start ya at $20.


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## beastmaster (Mar 30, 2012)

If you honestly think your worth more then ask for it. I spent a lot of years working for a_ _ H_ _es, some times getting paid good wages sometimes not. Being at the mercy of some cheap boss sucks. I learned to turn the table, marketing my skill level and experience and not being afraid to ask for what I think I am worth . 
Good employees, with a drivers lic. and drug free are rare and worth good money, if you have skills to boot, show up on time, take responsibly your worth your weight in gold. 
A little trick I learned is to make your self indispensably to the company, then lean on them for more money, But be carefull and don't burn those bridges.
Also be carefull, I have seen lots of people who thought they were indispensable end up fired, and easily replaced.
You have to beleave in your self and have confidence, and know your worth more, to get more.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 30, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> If you honestly think your worth more then ask for it. I spent a lot of years working for a_ _ H_ _es, some times getting paid good wages sometimes not. Being at the mercy of some cheap boss sucks. I learned to turn the table, marketing my skill level and experience and not being afraid to ask for what I think I am worth .
> Good employees, with a drivers lic. and drug free are rare and worth good money, if you have skills to boot, show up on time, take responsibly your worth your weight in gold.
> A little trick I learned is to make your self indispensably to the company, then lean on them for more money, But be carefull and don't burn those bridges.
> Also be carefull, I have seen lots of people who thought they were indispensable end up fired, and easily replaced.
> You have to beleave in your self and have confidence, and know your worth more, to get more.



I agree with Wade, Move to So-Cal where at least we are gaining ground on tree care here. 
Jeff


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## arborjockey (Mar 31, 2012)

I haven't read all the post but let me get this straight, you own some of your own gear and have been working with your ice climbing buddy on a ranch for 6 months. Now you're doing massive line clearance jobs with a 12 year vet who doesn't like heights. I hope you were falling and doing some mean tree work for the forests service because your doing big trees 4 cheeeeeep and its dangerous. Assuming your getting production done. If your the main man on the job and taking over trees for the 12 year climber forget the $ get away from those guys and get away from line clearance for awhile. Go find some other climbers to push you into getting even better. This situation will put a bad taste in your mouth about tree work. The $ is good. Don't let the owner tell you the pay.:taped: You tell him. Let him sit in his car but get his $. Keep your gear at home make him buy your stuff. 

I've killed myself and worn out my gear making tree companies lots of money. In the end all I got was a " hey your the best" . The owner talks about, taxes, workmans comp, insurance, my ex wife, home owner didn't pay, all while they pac for their next vacation. 

Go with the 2 week plan. You pay me this much for 2 weeks. When you find out im extraordinary and your production is going up, now pay me what im worth.


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## richard88 (Mar 31, 2012)

to arborjockey,

The forest Service was a really great experience and taught me a lot about different teqniques for bringing down trees from the ground, sometimes size complicated things, or you'd come accross a huge fire damaged tree that has to come down (or is still on fire and has to come down), working on conifer encroachment in aspen stands (so trees had to be dropped without destroying the trees we were trying to save, or sometimes it was clear cutting for forest saftey zones. I was really fortunate to be on the same crew as one of my other climbing partners, who was the saw cordinator for our forest and 13 year wildland fire sawyer. Working out on the ranch was a big learning curve, basically around here ranch houses are always surround by huge deteriorating cottonwood trees, i picked up the isa ca book and the tree climbers companion and i taught myself the basics of climbing trees by starting small and working my way up to bigger trees (all removals so no healthy trees were harmed by inexperience during this time). Then i got the job that i have now and began refining all of my cutting and climbing techniques with proper training in all aspects of arboriculture. 

The guy that i work with every day does not climb, he was actually a groundsman for 12 years and for the last 2 years he's been in the bucket learning more about that job, but as i said hes affraid of heights. My boss is a skilled climber, but he no longer works, so i do all of the climbing and tall trees from the bucket (anything 50ft + i have to do). I did ask for the raise, but i think my boss just ignored me (too bad, im starting to loose a lot of the respect i had for him)

I've thought about it a lot over the last couple days and i think i'll stay where i am for 6 months to save and look for a job elsewhere. Id really love to go out on my own here locally, but i feel like i have a lot to learn still and i'd like to see what kind of different experience i can get from somewhere else.

Im thinking colorado, montana, idaho, or alaska, but i can find something i like about most places.

Thanks for all the replies guys, ive gotten some really great suggestions here.

Richard


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## Toddppm (Mar 31, 2012)

That's what I'm talking about. I didn't think I was being harsh at all, he went from work on a ranch with an ice climber to taking over a line clearance co. in a year????????? I don't think he's seen #### yet and will be shocked at what a real production tree company can do. Or even a small professional residential tree company. 
If you like it that much there's much better avenues to pursue in this business and you'll have alot more fun. Oh yea and alot more $$$$$$$$


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## richard88 (Mar 31, 2012)

toddppm,

You're definitely not being harsh, i completely agree, that is why i feel like i'd be better served elsewhere. I hope i didn't come accross as bragging about experience this was more about work ethic and aptitude and quite simply doing way more than you get paid for in a very dangerous profession.

Thanks,

Richard


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## arborjockey (Mar 31, 2012)

Good stuff kid. I agree with above. Get out go to a residential tree service. Get around some young guys who enjoy climbing. Your word usage alone let's me believe you need a raise. The guys I work with can't spell tree. Sure like to get you out here. Come to hawaii. I've been to co,mt, and idaho many times. But the big Alaska is where its at and my next stop after Denmark. Don't forgetn about canada. Great tree work being done up there. 

Nothing against you and your prevouse work buuuuuuut. In Oregon my boss met up with a young gun faller from Colorado. He had a hazardous falling credential that only like 10-12 people in the u.s. carry. He said the forrest service sent him in as a specialized faller for large or extremely hazardous trees. The wife the baby everyone moved out. He was fit looking wore all the timber clothing and all. The saddest part of all he really liked my boss and the business. BUT HE SUCKED. In 5 min of running the saw my boss said " uh oh. He's not that good" in a week he was gone. 

Don't lean to hard on the I.S.A. Its a good starting point. Memorize the glossary in the study guide and your good. Tree climbers companion is great. Advanced rigging dvd that was $500 is somewhat affordable now. The #1 The FUNDAMENTALS OF GENERAL TREE WORK. Read it, study it, love it like it was your own. 

Good luck and be safe.


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## Kottonwood (Mar 31, 2012)

My groundmen make 15 an hour.

Check your PM if you want to come to CO.


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## Kottonwood (Mar 31, 2012)

VA-Sawyer said:


> You really should be in treework..... you are such a sap! Naming his saws after her.......... what will she think when he uses her name on an big ol' 880 ?
> 
> Rick



I name my saws after motorcycles..... guess I know where my heart is


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## arborjockey (Mar 31, 2012)

I named my kids AFTER my saws. Jonesred just turned 12. Little echo never shuts up he's 5


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 31, 2012)

At least no one called you stupid! 
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## richard88 (Mar 31, 2012)

Kieth,

An email has been sent to you

Thank you

It's nice to see other guys that hold their chainsaws up with everything else. I have a regular cab pickup and i often find myself with my 372xpw riding shotgun


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## tree md (Mar 31, 2012)

Not much to add. You're never going to make great money doing line clearance unless you are the owner. You need to transition into residential tree care to make the money you are shooting for.

... My saws are named 200T, 260, 361, 044, 660...


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## richard88 (Mar 31, 2012)

Tree md,

i'm starting to realize that. We do a fair amount of residential work, but my boss considers his utility contracts to be his bread and butter. It seems to work out for him, so i cant say he made the wrong descision, but I also need to do what's best for me. In this case I think I need to seek out a company that i can continue to learn new things from, so that i can contribute to a high standard of profesionalism in this business. 

Thanks,

Richard


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## Wazzu (Mar 31, 2012)

Re apply to the Forrest Service. You wont regret it in a few years when you realize you have a decent check and retirement instead of a bunch of worn out equipment and a big payment every month for your pickup etc. You can run a tree car biz on the weekends.


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## Fairbanks Stump (Mar 31, 2012)

*I didnt know there were any trees in Wyoming.*

sounds like you are gaining some valuable experience! Seeing as though the Arborist cert is primarily for your benefit I think if I was you I'd pay for it my self and use the cert as a Negotiating tool to either Garner a higher wage or a better paying job else where. if you are safe and don't mind working seasonally I generally hire an all around guy CDL, Climber, Brush Ape, and beer drinkin' after work guy for around $22/hr 40hr min. May to September After that we hibernate here in Fairbanks AK


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 31, 2012)

Fairbanks Stump said:


> sounds like you are gaining some valuable experience! Seeing as though the Arborist cert is primarily for your benefit I think if I was you I'd pay for it my self and use the cert as a Negotiating tool to either Garner a higher wage or a better paying job else where. if you are safe and don't mind working seasonally I generally hire an all around guy CDL, Climber, Brush Ape, and beer drinkin' after work guy for around $22/hr 40hr min. May to September After that we hibernate here in Fairbanks AK



So you only work 4 months a year? That sucks!
Jeff


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 31, 2012)

Toddppm said:


> Sounds like you have no real experience and are just winging it with what you got. I think you'll do pretty good with another company with a crew of guys that know real tree work. It'll probably open your eyes to alot that you should know.
> Line clearance I don't think you'll move up very fast at all and not with a company that only has 2 employees.



Todd,

The first time I read this, I saw it as " You don't have any experience, you don't know what you are doing,......etc. Hence my comment about being harsh, as I think Richard88 sounds like he has his head on straight, and is doing much better than most 'somewhat new climbers'. I would call him 'gung ho', but without the normal clueless sounding statements so common with the inexperienced. Having reread your post, I now see it as a positive but honest statement. I apologize for my comment. Rick

Richard88,

Hang in there man. I also like the way you sound in your posts, and it sure does sound to me like you are underpaid. I still think you should at least talk to the other company in town. Call the owner and ask if he will make time to meet with you 'for a burger' some day after work. Maybe he would like to have a climber that knows something about tree care. Maybe he doesn't care about trees. Whichever, I would sure give myself the chance at a better job. I know what it is like to be slowly going under every month. " Can't afford to leave, can't afford to stay.... IT SUCKS!
Good luck,
Rick


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## Fairbanks Stump (Mar 31, 2012)

*??*



jefflovstrom said:


> So you only work 4 months a year? That sucks!
> Jeff



May to September that's 5 months plus or minus a couple weeks on either side
Its ok I make as much as most do in 12 and don't have to work out side in the cold!


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 31, 2012)

Fairbanks Stump said:


> May to September that's 5 months plus or minus a couple weeks on either side
> Its ok I make as much as most do in 12 and don't have to work out side in the cold!



You make as much in 12 but I was thinking of the guy you pay $22 an hour. He don't.
Jeff


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## Fairbanks Stump (Mar 31, 2012)

*Very astute jeff*



jefflovstrom said:


> You make as much in 12 but I was thinking of the guy you pay $22 an hour. He don't.
> Jeff



You are correct but that is why I offered a seasonal job?!?! I wouldn't want to come up here for the winter any way it's too cold for a newbie!


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## himiler (Mar 31, 2012)

Several things:
You're getting married. Is your wifes family from the area? Is she going to have a hard time leaving? My wife referred to home as being where her parents lived up in PA for the first 12 years of our marriage. They eventually moved down here and she got over it. The longer you're in a place or the longer you're in a certain set of circumstances the more likely you'll stay there. It's called a rut. 
You're like a bar of soap, one day you'll be all used up. In the meantime at the very least work for the highest bidder, and for goodness sakes learn how to survive on less than you make. Learn what it takes to start a business in this industry and return to compete against the residential hack. If you do start a business remember you're a businessman in the Arborcultural industry, not an arborist in business for himself.
Don't show all your cards from the beginning. You demonstrated you had saws and equipment plus you were willing to work hard for what he's paying you. Why did or does he have to do more than he already has done? You laid your hand out for him to see without your boss having to even show the first card. He won that hand. Another book I'll recommend that has nothing to do with our field but is important in everyday life is "The Powers of Negotiation" by Roger Dawson. Who cares if it's fun to read or even what you want to read. You do what you have to do when you have to do it. You discipline yourself to structure your life to do and learn what's necessary.
Steve


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## himiler (Mar 31, 2012)

In Boy Scouts as an adult leader I have a formula I use. 
For the first three ranks (Scout, Tenderfoot, & Second Class) it's all about teaching and learning. 
When a scout achieves First Class I'm seeking out his weaknesses and working with him to improve or remove those weaknesses. 
For the last three ranks, (Star, Life, & Eagle), I'm all about exploiting any weakness I can root out. I poke and prod, I don't just bring it to their attention, I shove it in their face! These young men trust me and have faith in me, they believe in me and what I'm doing because I communicate that concern and caring to them but I also prepare them for the rest of their life.
Arboristsite? A lot like this. Arborist 101 for starting out. Other forums for different levels and interests. Commercial forum for the ones who can stand the heat. If you get whacked around in this forum or if someone calls you out it's because they took the time to show an interest. You want to be an Arborist? This is the place to be.


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 1, 2012)

Yeah, I was pretty proud when I got my 'Arrow of Light'.
Jeff :smile2:


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## arborjockey (Apr 1, 2012)

Fairbanks Stump said:


> sounds like you are gaining some valuable experience!




whos he gaining experience from? poooor kid theirs a hole world out here for yah.


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## richard88 (Apr 1, 2012)

va sawyer,

Thank you very much, i really appreciate the words of encouragement.

Fairbanks,

I'd love to come up there, but at the moment i'm focusing on finding something that will keep me working a few more months out of the year.

To everyone else,

Thanks for contributing to such an informative thread for me and i will definitely be posting here more often.

Thanks guys!

-Richard


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## tbow388 (Apr 2, 2012)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I see the point your making... your total lack of self worth has relegated you to a under paid office worker who is brown nosing the boss so that that POS does not go replace him with an illegal. Sounds to me your part of the problem not the solution.
> 
> here you forgot your glasses



Well Richard. Seems like you are getting some good advice. I hope it all works out for you great. Maybe some good will come to you from this thread. I hope you understand what I tried to say by working hard and you will get rewarded even if it isn't by your current employer. Don't shortchange yourself and do less because you are getting paid less. Keep up the hard work!!!

Now Stihl-O-Matic. You wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I gave my opinion as you did and you want to be a butt about it. This is a thread asking for a opinion and I gave mine. 

Stihl, I might be a part of your problem because I believe in working hard for what I get. A less government kinda guy that believes in working your way up instead of getting it in handouts. I bet we see quit differently on things.

Yep I am a office worker that answers phones and deals with customers, work on a computer, also unload 53' trucks , sweep floors, does construction when needed, works on and fixes broken things. (try to give the owner the most for his money.) Even though that is not in my job description. 

SOM, maybe I could be a boss. Maybe I like for people to move up in position. 

I might be underpaid to your standard but I think the 20 years I have been at my job and been the sole supporter of my family think I do pretty well. I started from the bottom, now at the top.


My point with a Mexican is that they work hard for less. (crappy employers take advantage of them BIG TIME!!!!!) Maybe in a small company if Richard demands more money the boss will say "well you are outa here then" because he is either a cheap butt or he really can't afford to pay him more. I bet his insurance rates are killer!!!!

Stihl, Thanks for the glasses. I will put them to work.






Here is your brown bag for your handouts!!! See Stihl, I can be a butt also.


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## what-a-stihl (Apr 2, 2012)

To the Op, you can thank all these owners of tree businesses that hire illegals for your $12 an hour. They just beat the wages down, and these owners justify themselves by saying "oh they work harder " that's b.s.! I've never had one out work me, and if anyone says they do than that person is lazy and has no pride in himself or his forebears . It's all about greed! Anyways are you an ice climber? I climb out in Montana quite a bit.


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## richard88 (Apr 7, 2012)

I completely agree and it is not only being a terrible business owner and American, it's being a terrible humanitarian. All professionals that work hard and take pride in what they do should be paid accordingly, now if you half a** everything then you're worthless and should also be paid accordingly.

I do climb rock and ice, with ice i haven't made it out of the bighorns, but i hear hyalite canyon has some incredible climbing and it's definitely on next years list of places to climb.

-Richard


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## arborjockey (Apr 8, 2012)

Pay is only 1 part of the puzzle. My employer pays my gas(in a car i rarely use at work), cell phone($80 month), health insurance ($300), breakfast, lunch, and extra tickets for buffets or concerts. He also pays all mechanical bills on my truck. He towed my moms car twice for nothing. My last boss before moving gave me a new trim saw, a 88xp and a bunch of chain. I will say its a rarity. Most of the time the company i work for gets the best of me 1 way or another. :taped: less said the better.


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## what-a-stihl (Apr 8, 2012)

richard88 said:


> I completely agree and it is not only being a terrible business owner and American, it's being a terrible humanitarian. All professionals that work hard and take pride in what they do should be paid accordingly, now if you half a** everything then you're worthless and should also be paid accordingly.
> 
> I do climb rock and ice, with ice i haven't made it out of the bighorns, but i hear hyalite canyon has some incredible climbing and it's definitely on next years list of places to climb.
> 
> -Richard



Yeah Hyalite is one of my favs, I posted some pics on a different thread climbing Genesis I and upper Green Sleeves in Hyalite. We have some good ice around Michigan's U.P., but it's about 6 hours away and nothing like the Gallatin Mountains. Most of the winter we let water run off of my climbing partners 80' silo and get good practice off that. Getting way off the subject, do you hunt any antelope up there in Sheridan?


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