# echo cs-400 vs. stihl ms-250



## frogg (Apr 23, 2010)

help me decide on which one to get.


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## o8f150 (Apr 23, 2010)

the 400,,,,,,,,,i have run echos for a long time,,love them,,,,never had any problems out of them


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

The CS400 is rated for 300 hours, the Stihl MS250 is rated for 50 hours I think. Says a lot about the quality of these 2 saws. Cutting speed should be close, keep in mind either you or your dealer will need the pull the limiter caps and adjust richer on the Echo for sure, it might run without adjusting but will be gutless and might burn up from being to lean. Steve


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## miking (Apr 23, 2010)

The Echo for sure.


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## striperswaper (Apr 23, 2010)

do they really self destruct after 300 and 50 hours? 
check what this rating is


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

Anyone on here that doesn't think Stihl would put a 300 EPA rating on thier cheapo homeowner saws if they could pass the EPA test after 300 hours . The quality is not there. I'm sure a Stihl MS250 will run more than 50 hours but it will be dead a long time before the Echo CS400. Take the orange and white glasses off. Steve


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## biscuit141 (Apr 23, 2010)

Hey question about buying a used echo. I always hear about adjusting the rich setting when you buy one. My question is what if I buy one used and the previous owner never did this? Is it more pron to blowing up, or as long as its still running its good to go and just adjust it right away when i get it?


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

biscuit141 said:


> Hey question about buying a used echo. I always hear about adjusting the rich setting when you buy one. My question is what if I buy one used and the previous owner never did this? Is it more pron to blowing up, or as long as its still running its good to go and just adjust it right away when i get it?



I'd do a compression test or pull the muffler and have a look if possible on any used saw. Steve


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

yakntx said:


> Just keep your Grey er I mean copycat orange glasses on. I have run both saws and I'll stick to my statement. I have a 250 that is 7yrs old and no problems. Sorry Echoes just dont last that long if used.



And how long have you used a Echo? What model? Steve


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## biscuit141 (Apr 23, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> I'd do a compression test or pull the muffler and have a look if possible on any used saw. Steve



What should a used saw pull on a compression test? What should I look for looking at the P/C? This would be for a cs-510, if I ever get around to buying it.


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## Woodcutteranon (Apr 23, 2010)

I think Echo's 5 year warranty cannot be overlooked when chosing between these two saws.


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

Around 150 to 155 is good , 140 on the low side with a good tester. With the muffler off the piston should be fairly smooth with minor vertical lines OK and the rings loose . Scoring is easy to see , most times the rings will be stuck in the grooves. Steve


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## biscuit141 (Apr 23, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> Around 150 to 155 is good , 140 on the low side with a good tester. With the muffler off the piston should be fairly smooth with minor vertical lines OK and the rings loose . Scoring is easy to seem , most times the rings will be stuck in the grooves. Steve



Rings stuck in the groves is bad? Or is that normal? Or is that how scoring happens?


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## Eastexan (Apr 23, 2010)

*Don't know if this matters to you or not.*

Echo CS-400 made in Japan/USA

Stihl MS-250 made in China

The Echo is a well made quality saw. :greenchainsaw:


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## Rudedog (Apr 23, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> The CS400 is rated for 300 hours, the Stihl MS250 is rated for 50 hours I think. Says a lot about the quality of these 2 saws. Cutting speed should be close, keep in mind either you or your dealer will need the pull the limiter caps and adjust richer on the Echo for sure, it might run without adjusting but will be gutless and might burn up from being to lean. Steve



Does anybody have a site that shows pics on how to pull limiter caps? Do you trim the caps or just chuck'em? I have run three tank fulls on the one Echo that I have and was thinking of tuning the high side as soon as my tach shows up.


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> Does anybody have a site that shows pics on how to pull limiter caps? Do you trim the caps or just chuck'em? I have run three tank fulls on the one Echo that I have and was thinking of tuning the high side as soon as my tach shows up.



It's best to tune them right away being set as lean as the are. Thread a drywall screw into the center of the cap , line up the tab with the slot and pull , if you have a warrenty tune the saw then put them back on otherwise grind off the tabs and reinstall. Tuning open the high up untill your sure it's way rich, 1 turn or so then turn back in a little at a time untill it cuts the fastest, not revs the fastest. These saws sound rich from the factory due to the rev limiter. Steve


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## miking (Apr 23, 2010)

Pulling the limiter caps out was simple as was getting then to run richer and much better. My cs 530 and 680 were adjusted at the dealer and ran fine as is, but my 370 was bought right off a shelf and I could sure see why people would be down on them initially because of a disappointing lack of power. All that changed with a richer setting and it's quite a runner now and might be my favorite saw for limbing. Much better than my old ms250 ever was. I'll bet a cs400 would be an excellent saw with some richer settings.


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 23, 2010)

Eastexan said:


> Echo CS-400 made in Japan/USA
> 
> Stihl MS-250 made in China
> 
> The Echo is a well made quality saw. :greenchainsaw:



The 250 is made at the Va. Beach plant. Those guys know how to build a saw. The echo? maybe japan, china, haiti, somalia, etc, don't know or care. The 5 year warranty is BS, read the fine print. The echos are built well but it will be dead long before the Stihl. Don't let the homeowner construction of the 250 fool ya, great saw.


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## o8f150 (Apr 23, 2010)

echo rules,,,,,stihl drools,,,,,just kidding stihl guys,,,,,,i just perfer the echo,,,,opcorn:opcorn:


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## ECRUPPRECHT (Apr 23, 2010)

Eastexan said:


> Echo CS-400 made in Japan/USA
> 
> Stihl MS-250 made in China
> 
> The Echo is a well made quality saw. :greenchainsaw:



?????where do you get your info i agree with you 2000 i know they are built in va beach as i have been there, no stihl ever has or ever will be made in china lets not turn this into a saw bashing thread they both make good saws i think he just wants opinions and reasons supporting those opinions???? what is going on here


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## miking (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> The 250 is made at the Va. Beach plant. Those guys know how to build a saw. The echo? maybe japan, china, haiti, somalia, etc, don't know or care. The 5 year warranty is BS, read the fine print. The echos are built well but it will be dead long before the Stihl. Don't let the homeowner construction of the 250 fool ya, great saw.



Which part of the warranty did you have a problem with?


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> The 250 is made at the Va. Beach plant. Those guys know how to build a saw. The echo? maybe japan, china, haiti, somalia, etc, don't know or care. The 5 year warranty is BS, read the fine print. The echos are built well but it will be dead long before the Stihl. Don't let the homeowner construction of the 250 fool ya, great saw.



So the 50 hour Stihl is going to outlast the 300 hours Echo, give me some common sence reasoning for the above statement. Steve


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

Hey Mike Sure is fun dealing with these guys that have nothing to back up what the say. Steve


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## miking (Apr 23, 2010)

What gets me is that I've had STihls and Huskys too and all of them have needed some carb adjustments to run and cut to my satisfaction, but those guys bash Echos because they need proper tuning from the factory setting. All of them nowadays need a little tweak here and there, but for some reason Echos alone are the dogs for it. It's like they're saying 'It's okay if my brand needs it, but not yours' . It's not like it's a major deal, but in retrospect it does keep the costs lower huh?


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 23, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> So the 50 hour Stihl is going to outlast the 300 hours Echo, give me some common sence reasoning for the above statement. Steve



It is a EPA rating. Not longevity. The echo will produce the numbers the epa likes for 300 hours, meaning it will run like poo until someone adjusts the carb and gets rid of the cat muffler. Personally, I could care less of how many hours the saw will produce the "epa friendly" numbers. You should too if you want a saw with power.:monkey:


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 23, 2010)

miking said:


> What gets me is that I've had STihls and Huskys too and all of them have needed some carb adjustments to run and cut to my satisfaction, but those guys bash Echos because they need proper tuning from the factory setting. All of them nowadays need a little tweak here and there, but for some reason Echos alone are the dogs for it. It's like they're saying 'It's okay if my brand needs it, but not yours' . It's not like it's a major deal, but in retrospect it does keep the costs lower huh?



You are correct about carb tuning, any brand needs it. What most here are used to with echo is just low power, it doesn't matter if the carb is tuned right or not. They build a good saw, just have always been on the bottom due to power output. I got an old cs-346 and yeah it's a turd. From what I have read here lately, the newer echos seem to have more power. Someone one at echo must have taken a Stihl apart to see what needs to be done.


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## miking (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> You are correct about carb tuning, any brand needs it. What most here are used to with echo is just low power, it doesn't matter if the carb is tuned right or not. They build a good saw, just have always been on the bottom due to power output. I got an old cs-346 and yeah it's a turd. From what I have read here lately, the newer echos seem to have more power. Someone one at echo must have taken a Stihl apart to see what needs to be done.



I can see that. "Keep your friends close and you enemies closer" sort of thing.  Like I said, I have Stihls and Huskys as well as Echos and they all got their pros and cons but the power is no longer one of the Echo faults.


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## mountainlake (Apr 23, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> It is a EPA rating. Not longevity. The echo will produce the numbers the epa likes for 300 hours, meaning it will run like poo until someone adjusts the carb and gets rid of the cat muffler. Personally, I could care less of how many hours the saw will produce the "epa friendly" numbers. You should too if you want a saw with power.:monkey:



And Stilh wouldn't like to have a 300 hour rating on the MS250? The quality isn't there. If you don't think well tuned Echo saws have power you haven't run one. Every one I've will run all over Stihl home owner saws such as the 250. I'd be willing to bet that a stock CS400 40cc will outcut a stock MS250 45cc both tuned good with the same chain. Every Echo I've had apart has had closed port cylinders unlike cheap Stihls with open ports which don't make as much power per cc. Steve


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## VI sawguy (Apr 23, 2010)

ECRUPPRECHT said:


> ?????where do you get your info i agree with you 2000 i know they are built in va beach as i have been there, no stihl ever has or ever will be made in china lets not turn this into a saw bashing thread they both make good saws i think he just wants opinions and reasons supporting those opinions???? what is going on here



You do realize that Stihl has a very large factory in China building ***, mostly trimmers and pressure washers but they do build saws and saw components there.

Oh, and I'd pick the CS-400 everytime over the MS-250


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## huskystihl (Apr 23, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> And Stilh wouldn't like to have a 300 hour rating on the MS250? The quality isn't there. If you don't think well tuned Echo saws have power you haven't run one. Every one I've will run all over Stihl home owner saws such as the 250. I'd be willing to bet that a stock CS400 40cc will outcut a stock MS250 45cc both tuned good with the same chain. Every Echo I've had apart has had closed port cylinders unlike cheap Stihls with open ports which don't make as much power per cc. Steve



I know your an echo guy and thats cool and if we were talking about the echos of old or weed whips I might maybe buy into this. But, my cheapo 211 has gotta have 300 hrs on it by now, it starts and basically runs 4 hrs a day and walks all over a muff modded richly tuned 370 and the 211 is stock. I've ran 670's the 80cc and they are underpowered overweight crapsacks. They may be reliable i'll give them that but every echo dealer I know carries another brand for saw customers. I just got back from florida and every landscape company I seen ran echo and for good reason but to compare their saws to stihl or husky is rediculous. To each their own but echo needs to truly come out with some HP if they wanna be players and quit relying on a 300hr rating that truly means squat in engine life, it's just an epa stroker.


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## huskystihl (Apr 23, 2010)

VI sawguy said:


> You do realize that Stihl has a very large factory in China building ***, mostly trimmers and pressure washers but they do build saws and saw components there.
> 
> Oh, and I'd pick the CS-400 everytime over the MS-250



Do you still get one of those snazzy tip guards and a lo pro chain with all the echos at home de pot?


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## Eastexan (Apr 24, 2010)

ECRUPPRECHT said:


> ?????where do you get your info i agree with you 2000 i know they are built in va beach as i have been there, no stihl ever has or ever will be made in china lets not turn this into a saw bashing thread they both make good saws i think he just wants opinions and reasons supporting those opinions???? what is going on here



Sure, first of all I'd like to say that I'm not a blind brand loyalist. 
I have 5 chainsaws of which each are a different manufacturer. It just happened out that way. I bought each one for it's own purpose and each have been reliable to date.

Before I make an investment in something I need, I always try to research as best I can and try to make the best informed choice on what appeals to me.
I was looking for a chain saw in that same size range a while back and considered several makes and models, including these 2 that the OP is inquiring about. 
I asked around for honest opinions from people who actually owned and ran the saws. And I also tried to find out from dealers for their honest opinion of the particular saw I was interested in.
I looked around for the different makes and models that I liked and then made the choice based on what I found out as to durability, dependability, ease of use, etc.

What was said in this thread about the EPA durability rating being only about emissions is misleading.
The numbers pertain to the minimum hour ability of a particular saw staying within the EPA emission specs. The EPA spec of 300 hours is the highest rating and the lowest is 50 hours. 
In most instances, the higher end PRO saws of any brand name are given the 300 rating, whereas many of the lower-end saws are rated at 50. 
I believe Stihl, Husky, Dolmar, and other brand PRO saws are all rated at 300.
BTW, I found it interesting that everything Echo makes is rated at 300.

The way I heard it explained was that the EPA rating goes hand in hand with build quality. As the saw wears out, the ability to stay within EPA emission guidelines also deteriorates.

I didn't decide on either of those two saws mentioned, although the Echo CS-400 was first runner up to the one I bought.

The Echo's are well made saws. They have a good reputation as to long term dependability and back that up with a good warranty. 
I found out that they are all assembled in the US with engine blocks, etc., from Japan. Except for the new CS-310, which is made entirely in the US.
I found this out from a tech that works for ECHO Inc in Lake Zurich, Il.

Now, as for the Stihl MS250 being made in China. 
I was told that it along with other low end Stihls are being made in a factory there. 
One guy even sent me this link. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/295705524/MS_250_STIHL_Chainsaw.html

If you have actually seen MS250 saws being made at the Virginia plant then that's great. 
But from what I understand, Stihl is only manufacturing their high-end PRO saws here in the US.

As I said before, I'm not a brand loyalist. I don't have a dog in this hunt, as I don't own either of those saws. 
And even though the Stihl 250 is made in China, I still feel it's a good saw. It just wasn't the best choice IMHO.


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## pgg (Apr 24, 2010)

Everything about echos is based on dodging, evasive marketing hype. 
It's ALWAYS been the case with echos, ever since I first used them in the bush in late 70's anyway, when a typically sleazy echo salesman came out and convinced us all that echo was the way to go, and our useless orange XP huskys were yesterdays news. 

Lo and behold, on the day our new shiny red demonstration echos appeared on the block, and we'd excitedly grabbed one each, eager with anticipation at just how great this wondrous echo brand was going to be, within a few short hours they'd all been thrown back into the truck in utter disgust, never to be used ever again. Gutless pieces of sh*t! Back to our 'useless' orange huskys we went..

None of the claims from echo ever run true. They'll inevitably stall in the cut if you put pressure on and always feel cheap and nasty within about one hour of hard use. It's a great lark, make an engine so weak that it can't even actually strain it's own cheap componentry, then claim them as a 'reliable' saw. Reliably weak is about all...

Echos can't handle serious work, that's all there is to it. 5 year warranty's and 300 hour whatevers are just a crock of crap. Any manufacturer that REFUSES TO DISCLOSE POWER RATINGS to it's customers is just so phony it's almost amusing.

I've run various echos fleetingly since, and nothing has changed, every year for the last 30 years I've heard the same old, same old garbage - "Oh, oh, echos are improved and they have power equal with other saws this year, they're a good choice now, AND they're only half the price of your stihl and husky bush saws!..."

I've run them and they're still just the ****** same as always! Nothing about echos has changed at all. Still weak and a piss-poor choice for anything other than casual light-duty stuff. At least these days they've stopped their B.S. claims of being professional grade chainsaws, so as a light duty saw they'll do OK, just like every other chainsaw on the market


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## Rudedog (Apr 24, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> Do you still get one of those snazzy tip guards and a lo pro chain with all the echos at home de pot?



Yes I did. (Said with head hung low). On the bright side I just bought a nice looking/good compression 024 to replace the Echo I have. I do like the Echo air filter. I'm not sure how effective it is, but it seems like a real improvement over your typical saw filter. My Echo isn't bad at all. I just like the Stihl's better.


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## frogg (Apr 24, 2010)

thank ya`ll for the great info. what are limiter caps & how are they removed
& then what to do.?

got any pics for show & tell. also what is a cat muffler remove it & then what. ??

thanks


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

yakntx said:


> You crack me up. If you weren't so far away I would take you up on your offer. Then I would have am Echo saw that I can take back to Home Depot for a refund and buy some Christmas lights or something. He'll I'll eve out cut your saw with a 35cc Stihl.
> Until you know what the rating means you need to quit embarasing yourself by trying to explain something you know nothing about. The rating is an emissions rating by the Epa not an engine rating.
> 
> I'm happy that you like Echo, to each their own. Just know what you are talking about before you type it.



Why don't you come up with a explaination that makes sence instead of bs, I'm certainly not embarrased by saying that a saw that will last long enough to make the 300 hour EPA test has way more quality than one that can olny make 50 hours. Do YOU think the MS250 and MS460 are the same quality, you should be embarrased. Steve


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> I know your an echo guy and thats cool and if we were talking about the echos of old or weed whips I might maybe buy into this. But, my cheapo 211 has gotta have 300 hrs on it by now, it starts and basically runs 4 hrs a day and walks all over a muff modded richly tuned 370 and the 211 is stock. I've ran 670's the 80cc and they are underpowered overweight crapsacks. They may be reliable i'll give them that but every echo dealer I know carries another brand for saw customers. I just got back from florida and every landscape company I seen ran echo and for good reason but to compare their saws to stihl or husky is rediculous. To each their own but echo needs to truly come out with some HP if they wanna be players and quit relying on a 300hr rating that truly means squat in engine life, it's just an epa stroker.



Take the glasses off , bring your Stihl saws over. I own 3 Stihls and have run a lot of them. Time for some education. Steve


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## Saw Dr. (Apr 24, 2010)

I routinely perform maintenance on several 20 year old 025's. There are some in tree service use here also. I have never even seen a 20 year old cs-400, but I have seen several newer ones at the dump.


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

B200Driver said:


> I routinely perform maintenance on several 20 year old 025's. There are some in tree service use here also. I have never even seen a 20 year old cs-400, but I have seen several newer ones at the dump.



Another good argument, have you seen a 20 year old MS261. I've seen newer Stihls at the dump too. Steve


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## Cliff R (Apr 24, 2010)

Pound for pound/dollar for dollar, get the Echo CS-400. It's not one of the strongest running of the new Echo's, but at least as good as the MS-250 and can be had for under $200 on Ebay.

If you really want to step up a bit, at about the same price as the MS-250, move up to a CS-510/520 Echo. One of the favorite saws in my line-up here, been in service now since 2003, has many hundreds of tank-fulls of fuel thru it, and zero issues anyplace. 

I have actually owned just about every saw in Echo's newer line-up, and can provide real experience with them, not an opinion based on running one of them and smoking the P/C because I was too stupid to give it some fuel over the lean EPA factory setting(s).

The reed-valve engine and horzontal P/C models are long obsoleted, but many folks still use them for comparison purposes when these topics come up. The newer piston ported upright P/C units are better everyplace. The CS-510/520's are the real "sleepers" in the Echo line-up, strong high rpm power and torque comparable to the Husqvarna and Stihl Pro models. 

The CS-670 is just OK, as is the larger CS-800. The CS-440's are pretty decent, but not nearly as strong pound for pound as the slightly larger 510/520's. 

CS-370/400's are high torque saws for the cc's, not high rpm. I LOVE working with the CS-370's we have here, very fuel efficient, broad/smooth power curve and dead solid reliable. They aren't high rpm "screamers", so don't expect that sort of power from them. They have PLENTY of grunt, and make excellent limbing and firewood saws for smaller limbs/logs.

We just finished up two commercial jobs involving over 60 treees, a LOT of limbing, and did most of it with the little Echo CS-360T. It ran flawlessly, and my helper Nathan really loves it, choosing it over the other 7 saws we had on site for most of the smaller work. Didn't grumble once, or develope a "death rattle" either, but we're trying as hard as we can to kill it!.....Cliff


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

Cliff How old is your 360T now? It would have only lived a couple of weeks in pgg"s hands. Steve


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## huskystihl (Apr 24, 2010)

Saying a cs 400 isn't echos strongest saw but is better than a 250 is an off statement. I've ran all the echos and have a 250 which will give my 260 a run so don't compare the 400 to a 250. I'm not being brand loyal it's just i've tried them at local festivals and dealer days. I've always got an eye out for different brands to save money and not give up quality and performance. I tried dolmar and although they didn't last the cutting performance was fantastic, I tried out all the echos and tuned or not which most were at the paul bunyan festival they were underpowered over engineered yet very nice but overpriced homeowner grade saws. As for the invitation to come to minesota I would love to bring my 211 to dust the cs400 and the 250 to rip up on a a 510 and and consistently spot ya 10cc's as we go up. Beautiful country but two far for now. Why don't you echo guys start a trimmer defense site and i'll back ya all the way, I had stihl and echo trimmers and would never give up my echo or own another stihl trimmer but thats as far as i'll go with echo and thats what keeps them in business anyway "surely not saw sales"!


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## Cliff R (Apr 24, 2010)

I didn't say anyplace the CS-400 was "better" than an MS-250, just that I would get one instead. The MS-250 is not an overly impressive saw anyplace, I've ran several of them, and worked on a couple of them as well. Considering the price tag, the CS-400 or CS-370 is a better deal, IMHO.

As far as cutting power and speed, we've timed cut in hardwood the CS-510 against some pretty strong running saws. It's faster than a Shindaiwa 488, Husqvarna 50, 51, and both of my open port 55's. It's equal to my closed port 55 for timed cuts, but has a slightly broader power curve with more low end "grunt". 

In contrast, my CS-670 or 6700 woln't even come close to my Husqvarna 262XP or 268XP for timed cutting performance, so I'm not advocating all of Echo's modern line-up as on par with Professional saws, etc. Echo simply hit the CS-510/520 pretty good and those saws do quite well in that cc range in comparison to any other models I've ran from any other manufacturer.

I am NOT waving the Echo flag here, just trying to post usable/accurate information based on direct testing if/when it applies to the original questions in the thread. 

Believe it or not, I'm really not brand specific about anything, as I figured out many years ago that Husqvarna is THE way to go if you really want the best saws at your disposal on a daily basis!!!!......Cliff


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## huskystihl (Apr 24, 2010)

I'll go along with most of that but i'd have to disagree on the 250 comment. I'm pretty tight with the local equipment rental place and they do and always have used the 250 for their rental saws and they stand up to the abuse an uneducated homeowner puts them through, ie rocked chains, bogging down the engines etc. As far as price goes the 250 goes for $300 while the boat anchor/new groundy 370 we have goes for a few bucks less and as I said before the echo is modded and tuned dead on and still gets out cut by a wide margin. I've ran the 510 but obviously wasn't impressed enough to have ever considered one.


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> Saying a cs 400 isn't echos strongest saw but is better than a 250 is an off statement. I've ran all the echos and have a 250 which will give my 260 a run so don't compare the 400 to a 250. I'm not being brand loyal it's just i've tried them at local festivals and dealer days. I've always got an eye out for different brands to save money and not give up quality and performance. I tried dolmar and although they didn't last the cutting performance was fantastic, I tried out all the echos and tuned or not which most were at the paul bunyan festival they were underpowered over engineered yet very nice but overpriced homeowner grade saws. As for the invitation to come to minesota I would love to bring my 211 to dust the cs400 and the 250 to rip up on a a 510 and and consistently spot ya 10cc's as we go up. Beautiful country but two far for now. Why don't you echo guys start a trimmer defense site and i'll back ya all the way, I had stihl and echo trimmers and would never give up my echo or own another stihl trimmer but thats as far as i'll go with echo and thats what keeps them in business anyway "surely not saw sales"!



It's hard to argue with someone with no common sence that has Stihl glasses on. If the Echo CS400 or CS370 doesn't outcut the MS211 it has a dull safety chain on it. You Stihl guys are good ,the 3.8hp MS290, the 3.2 hp MS260 and NOW the 3 hp MS250 all cut at the same speed. Make sence not bs . Steve


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## VI sawguy (Apr 24, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VI sawguy 
You do realize that Stihl has a very large factory in China building ***, mostly trimmers and pressure washers but they do build saws and saw components there.

Oh, and I'd pick the CS-400 everytime over the MS-250 



> Do you still get one of those snazzy tip guards and a lo pro chain with all the echos at home de pot?



I don't know, I don't buy saws from Home Depot. I was just replying to the poster who said that Stihl would *never* be built in China. Just wanted him to know that they build product there now and have been for a few years.


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## huskystihl (Apr 24, 2010)

mountainlake said:


> It's hard to argue with someone with no common sence that has Stihl glasses on. If the Echo CS400 or CS370 doesn't outcut the MS211 it has a dull safety chain on it. You Stihl guys are good ,the 3.8hp MS290, the 3.2 hp MS260 and NOW the 3 hp MS250 all cut at the same speed. Make sence not bs . Steve



It's not stihl glasses at all, I have both saws and the 211 at 35cc's plain and simple outcuts the 37cc echo as it should. I also have the 250 and 260 which are very close in performance but not price which doesn't hardly seem right but it is. I bought the 260 because my old 026 gave out after years and probably should have bought a 346xp but I never included a 290 in any comparison but probably should have against a 670. I know it seems like I dislike echo as a brand but I really don't. If I was to start a landscaping company tomorrow I would run across town and buy echo and gladly do so. The one thing I can't buy at that echo shop is a saw because even the owner thinks their saws suck, plain and simple.


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> It's not stihl glasses at all, I have both saws and the 211 at 35cc's plain and simple outcuts the 37cc echo as it should. I also have the 250 and 260 which are very close in performance but not price which doesn't hardly seem right but it is. I bought the 260 because my old 026 gave out after years and probably should have bought a 346xp but I never included a 290 in any comparison but probably should have against a 670. I know it seems like I dislike echo as a brand but I really don't. If I was to start a landscaping company tomorrow I would run across town and buy echo and gladly do so. The one thing I can't buy at that echo shop is a saw because even the owner thinks their saws suck, plain and simple.



More bs, my 510 and 520 Echo's outcut a MS290 every time. My 6700 is 1 second behind my 044 in a 20 second cut, maybe you or who ever has no idea how to tune a Echo or what kind of chain to run. I've heard from other people who are honest that the CS370 outcuts the MS211, never ran a 211 so I can't be sure. Steve


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## Austin1 (Apr 24, 2010)

I did not even read all the post's But will say this Get the Echo! lol I do not own a Echo maybe one day but will say this they are a trouble free saw from what I have seen. My Poulan 295 will stay right with a MS 250 but both will get spanked by a Echo in the 45 cc class or at least that was my experience I think the saw was a 4400 or something like that?. I had to pull out my 2152 to send it to it's placeI will also admit a biased against the little Sthils I think they are way over priced and your just paying for the Name.In a bigger saw ya stihl makes some good ones.


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## Eastexan (Apr 24, 2010)

*Lets burn off that 1/4 mile.....*

I get the idea that some of you guys think that speed is everything. That it's more about competition than quality. :greenchainsaw:

I may be in the minority here, but I buy a saw for it's year after year dependability, and not just because one may be a second or two faster in the cut.
If I have one that is both, then that's fine. But I'm not going to quibble over a couple seconds. :bang:

Just because one homeowner saw will cut a cookie 0.5 second faster than another doesn't automatically mean it's the better quality saw.

I enjoy watching chain saw competitions, but when I buy a saw I don't judge it by how fast it is. I don't mind it taking a couple minutes longer cutting up a tree for firewood or whatever, if I know it was the better quality choice.

Now, if someone is in the logging business and speed is a necessary part of making a living, then I can understand why a second or two per cut would make a difference. But that's where you get into the pro saws where dependability and speed are necessary. These pro guys are unlikely to buy a homeowner saw.

Just my 2 seconds....er, cents worth.


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## Eastexan (Apr 24, 2010)

austin1 said:


> i did not even read all the post's but will say this get the echo! Lol i do not own a echo maybe one day but will say this they are a trouble free saw from what i have seen. My poulan 295 will stay right with a ms 250 but both will get spanked by a echo in the 45 cc class or at least that was my experience i think the saw was a 4400 or something like that?. I had to pull out my 2152 to send it to it's placei will also admit a biased against the little sthils i think they are way over priced and your just paying for the name.in a bigger saw ya stihl makes some good ones.



+1


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## REJ2 (Apr 24, 2010)

It was the inFAMOUS ms250 that got me pointed in the right direction. REJ2


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## mountainlake (Apr 24, 2010)

Austin1 said:


> I did not even read all the post's But will say this Get the Echo! lol I do not own a Echo maybe one day but will say this they are a trouble free saw from what I have seen. My Poulan 295 will stay right with a MS 250 but both will get spanked by a Echo in the 45 cc class or at least that was my experience I think the saw was a 4400 or something like that?. I had to pull out my 2152 to send it to it's placeI will also admit a biased against the little Sthils I think they are way over priced and your just paying for the Name.In a bigger saw ya stihl makes some good ones.



The CS4400 has the same porting as the 510 520 saws and runs better than the CS440 which has rather small ports. Steve


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## ECRUPPRECHT (Apr 24, 2010)

Eastexan said:


> Sure, first of all I'd like to say that I'm not a blind brand loyalist.
> I have 5 chainsaws of which each are a different manufacturer. It just happened out that way. I bought each one for it's own purpose and each have been reliable to date.
> 
> Before I make an investment in something I need, I always try to research as best I can and try to make the best informed choice on what appeals to me.
> ...



that saw is made to mimic a stilh making people believe they are buying something they are not they have that type of junk for every product manufactured its a look a like piece of garbag
e


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## huskystihl (Apr 24, 2010)

ECRUPPRECHT said:


> that saw is made to mimic a stilh making people believe they are buying something they are not they have that type of junk for every product manufactured its a look a like piece of garbag
> e[/QUTE]
> 
> They sell the same look a like 372 on ebay from time to time. Stihl does not manufacture any saws in japan, china, korea unlike the miagi corp. The best thing echo could do is talk to toyota and try to figure out how to get their saws up to full throttle.


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## ECRUPPRECHT (Apr 24, 2010)

Eastexan said:


> Now, as for the Stihl MS250 being made in China.
> I was told that it along with other low end Stihls are being made in a factory there.
> 
> 
> I didnt know any of the brands in question made a low end saw


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## Ma Barker (Apr 24, 2010)

Eastexan said:


> I get the idea that some of you guys think that speed is everything. That it's more about competition than quality. :greenchainsaw:



Yeah guys, what do your wives think about this "speed vs. quality" philosophy??


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## 7sleeper (Apr 25, 2010)

Ma Barker said:


> Yeah guys, what do your wives think about this "speed vs. quality" philosophy??






reped ya for that one!

7


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## mountainlake (Apr 25, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> ECRUPPRECHT said:
> 
> 
> > that saw is made to mimic a stilh making people believe they are buying something they are not they have that type of junk for every product manufactured its a look a like piece of garbag
> ...


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## mowoodchopper (Apr 25, 2010)

The 250 is a pile! If you want a stihl get a 260. Otherwise get the echo, I have a 3400 , bucket saw I got used, was told they are junk underpowered etc. Its still strong as heck my favorite little saw and I gave 70 bucks for it.
I have owned a couple 025/250s, they really are a pos in my opinion, not a
valuable tool to the stihl name. The 260 is a whole diff ball game.


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## Cliff R (Apr 25, 2010)

"Yeah guys, what do your wives think about this "speed vs. quality" philosophy??"

I would imagine it depends on if they are with their boyfriends, or their husbands.....LOL.

Seriously, a good chainsaw for someone who requires their services on a consistance basis, and needs to get a LOT of work done in a given time period, needs to be fast, fuel efficient, reliable, and provide a long service period without tons of "issues".

For the most part, the "Professional" models meet these needs moreso than the "homeowner" or casual user models.

I consider myself pretty demanding as far as my equipment goes. I manage several hundred acres of woods for a local landowner, my own woods, and do some commercial contract tree removal on occassion as well.

I also keep all of my equipment in top notch shape, it is maintenced after every outing, chain sharpened, chips blown out of them, greased, chain tightened, topped off with fuel and bar oil, etc.

I've obtained quite a few off brand saws (other than Husqvarna) in recent years, some were useless piles of JUNK, others OK, and some quite impressive.

The newer Echo saw, specifically the CS-360T, CS-510, CS-520's have been the most impressive. I kept one CS-510 in my line-up, and the CS-360T. I use them just about every week, and they are excellent in all catagories to date.

One must keep in mind when recomending various Brands of saws, that there are models in their line-up that aren't that great, some are just plain POS. Both Stihl and Husqvarna have produced some pretty "low" end units to compete with the box store stuff. Echo on the other hand, stepped up their line-up and continues to improve their quality to edge into the higher end market owned by Stihl and Husqvarna. I'm not saying here that all their saws are "Professional" quality, but many models are significantly better than the lower end models from the big names, at least from what I've seen here.....Cliff


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## mountainlake (Apr 25, 2010)

That's the truth, these Stihl guys get on here and act like they all have the same qualiy when there is night and day difference between the 50 hour ones and the 300 hour one, both in power per cc and quality. Echo's are all 300 hour saws . Some are the split case saws, some are clamshells which I have no problem with. About 95% of the engines I own are clamshell and with Echo's clamshell design it take around 10 minutes to have the whole engine laying on the bench, if replacing bearing that job is a snap compared to the split case, replaceing the [email protected] might a couple minutes quicker on the split case. On the Echo clamshell engines a whole new short block can be bought for $190 plus 30 to 40 minutes to install, about the same price as just a [email protected] on a Stihl. I've never even came close to wearing one out yet, just found out by buying set to lean ones off Ebay. So far in 8 years on my running ones I've replaced 1 AV mount on my 6700 besides bars and chains. Steve


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## Kurf (Apr 25, 2010)

Well, looks like several of the Echo people are coming out ot the wood work. Good for them. Cliff has been around awhile, made a lot of good posts that I have enjoyed. I use Echo saws around the farm mainly because of their quality, low cost (on Ebay anyway) and easy starting. I have a cs-520 and thought that I needed to add a little fuel to the high end to improve preformance. I removed the restricter, opened the H jet a little and the rpms went down. It was trying to rain and I didn't play around with it in a cut. The rpms were around 11,300 before starting the adjustment, which, I thought was a little low. I opened it about 1/8 turn and the rpm went down to around 11,100. Sounds like it was opened far enough. I then leaned it out and it went to 11,800 and I stopped, I don't think it will cut any better at 11,800 because at some point in time I had adjusted it to the wide open position allowed by the restricter. I was hoping to adjust it to around 12,000. I don't really know what is recommended. I've searched around here and on Echo's site, can't find that information. Can anyone share the information on recommended max rpm for the cs-520. Thanks


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## mountainlake (Apr 25, 2010)

Kurf said:


> Well, looks like several of the Echo people are coming out ot the wood work. Good for them. Cliff has been around awhile, made a lot of good posts that I have enjoyed. I use Echo saws around the farm mainly because of their quality, low cost (on Ebay anyway) and easy starting. I have a cs-520 and thought that I needed to add a little fuel to the high end to improve preformance. I removed the restricter, opened the H jet a little and the rpms went down. It was trying to rain and I didn't play around with it in a cut. The rpms were around 11,300 before starting the adjustment, which, I thought was a little low. I opened it about 1/8 turn and the rpm went down to around 11,100. Sounds like it was opened far enough. I then leaned it out and it went to 11,800 and I stopped, I don't think it will cut any better at 11,800 because at some point in time I had adjusted it to the wide open position allowed by the restricter. I was hoping to adjust it to around 12,000. I don't really know what is recommended. I've searched around here and on Echo's site, can't find that information. Can anyone share the information on recommended max rpm for the cs-520. Thanks



Sounds like you were plenty rich to start with on yours, maybe someone adjusted it before yiou got it, keep leaning it out untill it pulls the best in the cut, soon as you get to lean it will bog out easy. Then put the tach on it for a good baseline number. I'd think over 13000 Steve


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## Gizzard (Apr 25, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> It's not stihl glasses at all, I have both saws and the 211 at 35cc's plain and simple outcuts the 37cc echo as it should. I also have the 250 and 260 which are very close in performance but not price which doesn't hardly seem right but it is. I bought the 260 because my old 026 gave out after years and probably should have bought a 346xp but I never included a 290 in any comparison but probably should have against a 670. I know it seems like I dislike echo as a brand but I really don't. If I was to start a landscaping company tomorrow I would run across town and buy echo and gladly do so. The one thing I can't buy at that echo shop is a saw because even the owner thinks their saws suck, plain and simple.



Huskystihl, nice sig line you have now. I know I mentioned it before, but my experience with the MS211 (35.2cc) and CS-370 (36.3cc)was different than yours. The CS-370 I had (2005) was one of the first ones out and didn't have primer and none of the richening issues that are often mentioned with the recent ones. I've run 2 different 211's and they weren't as quick at starting or cutting as that 370. Guy in forestry division doing stand thinning talked me out of that saw. Easy to do when the offer was more than I payed for it new. Price inflation of new saw makes it hard for me to hang onto saws. I take good care of them and someone often makes an offer for one that is more than what I originally paid for it. I've always liked the smaller Stihl's, but for the money seems like they should produce a lot more power or be the clear "king of the hill".


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## 2000ssm6 (Apr 25, 2010)

huskystihl said:


> The best thing echo could do is talk to toyota and try to figure out how to get their saws up to full throttle.



Wish I had room in my sig for this quote! LOLOLOL


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## huskystihl (Apr 25, 2010)

Gizzard said:


> Huskystihl, nice sig line you have now. I know I mentioned it before, but my experience with the MS211 (35.2cc) and CS-370 (36.3cc)was different than yours. The CS-370 I had (2005) was one of the first ones out and didn't have primer and none of the richening issues that are often mentioned with the recent ones. I've run 2 different 211's and they weren't as quick at starting or cutting as that 370. Guy in forestry division doing stand thinning talked me out of that saw. Easy to do when the offer was more than I payed for it new. Price inflation of new saw makes it hard for me to hang onto saws. I take good care of them and someone often makes an offer for one that is more than what I originally paid for it. I've always liked the smaller Stihl's, but for the money seems like they should produce a lot more power or be the clear "king of the hill".



Thats the same on I have, no primer. I gutted the muffler and fought with that dam limiter cap for an hour and richened it up and it just went BLAH. Finally I used a tach and set it about 14k which by ear sounded right but it still is underpowered with a 16" bar. I don't really care simply because I signed up at one of those expo deals at the home depot one day and won a $500 gift card so I got my trimmer and the 370 and I love that trimmer to death. I also have the fs55 at the lake that I wouldn't give a squirt of pi%% for. Rattly vibrating jackhammer on a stick. So theres my stihl bash and my echo plug.


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## Gizzard (Apr 25, 2010)

Huskystihl,

Your ordeal with the 370 seems like similar tale I've got from other owners. I got lucky with one.

Usually just hear thumbs up on the 211 from whoever has one. The 211's I've run are nice fast running saws and even though the plastic looks poor on them, they seem like real durable saws. 

Good luck with your business this year.


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## huskystihl (Apr 25, 2010)

Gizzard said:


> Huskystihl,
> 
> Your ordeal with the 370 seems like similar tale I've got from other owners. I got lucky with one.
> 
> ...



Yep! I got the 211 and gave it a week and that was a year ago. I actually cracked an 036 case from less abuse than the 211 has had simply beacuse I have tried to kill it. Maybe some straight gas would get it done. I like feeling like I got my moneys worth on expensive items and try to expose the weaknesses of cheap ones. The gripe I had on the little limber was the price but it earned it's keep surprisingly.


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## Saw Seller (May 15, 2010)

*What saw*

I would take the Echo over the Stihl any day. I love Stihl saws though, actually I love selling them to die hard loyalists who wouldn't own anything else. Stihl made some really great ones like the 028 WB, one of the most bullet proof saws ever made. I like Dolmars & was a Sachs Dolmar dealer for quite a few years. For the most part though I'm not a Stihl fan. They are too pricey, too hard to do major repairs, I'm seeing junk quality main bearings on some newer saws. You are not going to get German SKF's until you get up to a 660 or 880. You want a great saw for a great price? DOLMAR!


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## pgg (May 15, 2010)

Echos have their place with homeowner saws and are just another mediocre performer amongst heaps of other brands. Echos get crap thrown at them by pros because they're promoted and branded as something they're not. Echo attempts to market their saws as being on the same level as pro stihls and huskys and at a much CHEAPER price. It's all such B.S. Surely intelligent people can see through the crap? Wise up, you don't get something for nothing in this life. Echos don't make the grade as a good pro saw, they're just tinny egg-beaters with no real substance when it comes to the harsh reality of commercial forestry. 

How many PNW loggers up there run echos? I'd hazard a guess and say none. I wonder why? Ha! get real dudes, Echos are shyte as pro saws and just a temporary substitute for the real deal. If the cheesy Echo propaganda machine stopped all the crap and described their saws as what they really are, that's a typical budget-grade backyard chainsaw(there ain't nothing wrong with being branded a homeowner saw) then no-one would be throwing sh!t at them


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## mountainlake (May 15, 2010)

pgg said:


> Echos have their place with homeowner saws and are just another mediocre performer amongst heaps of other brands. Echos get crap thrown at them by pros because they're promoted and branded as something they're not. Echo attempts to market their saws as being on the same level as pro stihls and huskys and at a much CHEAPER price. It's all such B.S. Surely intelligent people can see through the crap? Wise up, you don't get something for nothing in this life. Echos don't make the grade as a good pro saw, they're just tinny egg-beaters with no real substance when it comes to the harsh reality of commercial forestry.
> 
> How many PNW loggers up there run echos? I'd hazard a guess and say none. I wonder why? Ha! get real dudes, Echos are shyte as pro saws and just a temporary substitute for the real deal. If the cheesy Echo propaganda machine stopped all the crap and described their saws as what they really are, that's a typical budget-grade backyard chainsaw(there ain't nothing wrong with being branded a homeowner saw) then no-one would be throwing sh!t at them





Well said for someone that doesn't know how or won't even tune a saw right. Just run them untill they die. Steve


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (May 15, 2010)

pgg said:


> Echos have their place with homeowner saws and are just another mediocre performer amongst heaps of other brands. Echos get crap thrown at them by pros because they're promoted and branded as something they're not. Echo attempts to market their saws as being on the same level as pro stihls and huskys and at a much CHEAPER price. It's all such B.S. Surely intelligent people can see through the crap? Wise up, you don't get something for nothing in this life. Echos don't make the grade as a good pro saw, they're just tinny egg-beaters with no real substance when it comes to the harsh reality of commercial forestry.
> 
> How many PNW loggers up there run echos? I'd hazard a guess and say none. I wonder why? Ha! get real dudes, Echos are shyte as pro saws and just a temporary substitute for the real deal. If the cheesy Echo propaganda machine stopped all the crap and described their saws as what they really are, that's a typical budget-grade backyard chainsaw(there ain't nothing wrong with being branded a homeowner saw) then no-one would be throwing sh!t at them


i have a cs600,and i would put it against my 361/362 any day,it is not a stihl,but it is an exc. saw.my brother uses several cs 530/600 on his crews on a dailly basis. they run all day beside "PRO" stihls',and have zero issues. the new cs600p is a great saw.


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## Cliff R (May 15, 2010)

I feel the same way about my CS-510. Never ran a 50cc saw that was really any faster, smoother, etc. It has proven to be dead solid reliable in long term service as well, haven't touched it since it was purchased in 2003, other than removing the carb limiter caps and opening up the muffler a tad.

If my 262XP ever gives up, I'd replace it with a CS-600 without hesitation.......Cliff

PS: I'm still waiting for the little CS-360T to develope a "death rattle". Just finished cutting up most of the wood in this picture less than about 12" , 6 trees in all, and it didn't falter once.....


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## Cliff R (May 15, 2010)

Here's a pic of Nathan and his favorite saw, the little Echo CS-360T. We used the CS-360T to limb about 60 trees on this job. Aside from tossing a chain once, it never grumbled the entire time.....Cliff


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

Eastexan said:


> *Don't know if this matters to you or not.*
> 
> Echo CS-400 made in Japan/USA
> 
> ...


Sorry your totally wrong on this. I work with Stihl in Virginia Beach VA and have for years now. The MS-250’s are produced almost weekly at this facility and is one of their highest selling products. This plant has over 1million square feet and is very impressive to see in person. So it’s disappointing to see people post totally incorrect assumptions when they don’t actually know the appropriate answer. 

Oh and by the way I currently own a 2015 CS-400 that has less than 20 hours and will not stay running. Just got it back from the shop again today and no one including myself can diagnose the problem. Echo makes great stuff as well but honestly this has been the most problematic saw I’ve ever owned so it’s hard for me to believe that a MS-250 is much worse than the Echo. I found this thread as I’m currently trying to decide on which to purchase.


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## holeycow (Jan 27, 2021)

Old thread...
but I'll bite; 
I would buy neither. 
I would find a Makita ea4300 (Dolmar 421).


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

Thanks glad someone took the challenge.


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## Goinwheelin (Jan 27, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> Sorry your totally wrong on this. I work with Stihl in Virginia Beach VA and have for years now. The MS-250’s are produced almost weekly at this facility and is one of their highest selling products. This plant has over 1million square feet and is very impressive to see in person. So it’s disappointing to see people post totally incorrect assumptions when they don’t actually know the appropriate answer.
> 
> Oh and by the way I currently own a 2015 CS-400 that has less than 20 hours and will not stay running. Just got it back from the shop again today and no one including myself can diagnose the problem. Echo makes great stuff as well but honestly this has been the most problematic saw I’ve ever owned so it’s hard for me to believe that a MS-250 is much worse than the Echo. I found this thread as I’m currently trying to decide on which to purchase.


So you work at a Stihl factory. Own an Echo. And can’t decide which one to buy?


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> So you work at a Stihl factory. Own an Echo. And can’t decide which one to buy?


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## Timber MacFallen (Jan 27, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> Sorry your totally wrong on this. I work with Stihl in Virginia Beach VA and have for years now. The MS-250’s are produced almost weekly at this facility and is one of their highest selling products. This plant has over 1million square feet and is very impressive to see in person. So it’s disappointing to see people post totally incorrect assumptions when they don’t actually know the appropriate answer.
> 
> Oh and by the way I currently own a 2015 CS-400 that has less than 20 hours and will not stay running. Just got it back from the shop again today and no one including myself can diagnose the problem. Echo makes great stuff as well but honestly this has been the most problematic saw I’ve ever owned so it’s hard for me to believe that a MS-250 is much worse than the Echo. I found this thread as I’m currently trying to decide on which to purchase.


Well maybe this was correct 11 years ago. Like when the thread was started...


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

I don’t work there but I do sell a lot of injection molding equipment to them and have for years now so have spent a great deal of time onsite. The reason I found this post is I was at two dealers today looking at saws and both dealers had both products on hand to compare to each another. Both dealers also said both saws have proven to be about equal in performance and reliability with the MS-250 being slightly stouter due to having a slightly larger engine. One of the dealers has worked on my CS-400 3 times now so is intimate with all the issues I’ve had but assures me that most saws of this model have proven reliable. The reason I own the Echo is I own several farms one of which is within 2 miles of a Echo dealer. This being said I may buy another CS-400 due to dealer location as it just makes sense at this particular farm. With this said I own the following Stihl products. All units are less than 8 years old but have had only one problem and that was with a plugged spark arrester on my MS-241 c-m which I cleaned a few weeks ago so saw runs flawlessly now. Below are all the products I currently own. 

-1999 shindiawa trimmer. Never worked on and has been a great trimmer. 

-2005 RedMax blower. On off switch replaced last year. No other issues

- Echo CS-400. Hard to start and won’t stay running. Low hours

-Echo head trimmer. Base gas model but no issues. Runs great

-2 FS94 Stihl trimmers. Bullet proof, powerful and light weight. My favorite trimmer ever tested. Very well balanced also. 
-Stihl 362 c-m. Beast of a saw and no issues

-Stihl ms-241 c-m. My favorite small saw. Light, fast, strong and balanced. Unfortunately discontinued for US market. 

-Stihl MS-271 great saw with good power. No issues. 
-(2) 2017 Stihl FS-111 brush cutters. Powerful 4 stroke with no issues

-(2) BG86 blowers. No issues. 

-Stihl HT 131 4 stroke pole pruner. No issues 

-Stihl RB 400 Dirt Boss pressure washer. No issues. Great design. Planning to buy a second one soon.

I’ve had phanominal luck with Stihl products. Maybe just luck or maybe it’s because they make great products but hard for me to buy a lot of other brands because of my experience with Stihl. With this said I believe Echo and others make great stuff to Just not sure it’s any better than Stihl overall.


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

Timber MacFallen said:


> Well maybe this was correct 11 years ago. Like when the thread was started


 Nope. Never has been the case period.


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## Brushwacker (Jan 27, 2021)

I 'll bite too. I just skimmed through a little bit of the thread and it blows me away people think an cs 400 is way better then an ms250. I have owned 2 used echo cs 400s and used them intermittently with my other saws a couple or so years and i have a brand-new 1 in the box unopened I snagged a bit under retail at an auction. Before breaking open the new 1 i wanted to confirm I'd like and use it enough to keep it. So I paid about $165 for a used 1 on ebay, which ended up not a good deal because it came with a slightly bent bar i ended up replacing. So I put on a new 16inch bar and chain and used it and compared it to my old 025 i been using several years and an more recent 023 I bought. What I liked better about the 400 is the starter was easiar to pull and smoother , and less vibration but none of them 2 things are a problem to me on the 2 old stihls. I am 62 years old, with a not so good right shoulder, and some worn and torn bones and joints. My 025 which is nearly the same as the ms250 I can use it many hours at a time without noticing fatigue or soreness from it. My 026 would tire me sooner.
The geometry of the cs400 with a16 inch bar made my back sore bucking wood on the ground for more then a tank or so of fuel, power was much closer to the 023, not near the muffler modded 025 and not near as snappy throttling it. The second cs400 I snagged cheap at a yard sale with an new 18in bar ran about the same and the 18in bar seemed a bit easiar on my back. I did like using it trimming small limbs and trees that needed removed but overall I would grab the 025 more because the power was there for bigger trees I usually encounter at the same time. As for reliability, i been around and using 025's since 1994 the first was at my job at a state tree nursery. They had an 025 , 034 super, and an 048 i and various employees and prison offenders used on and off through the year cutting firewood, brush, maintaining windbreaks. We had at least 5 wood furnaces originally between several buildings, went to 2 outside wood boilers for a couple buildings a few years later. All 3 of the saws were well used when i started and they cut all the firewood and other tree maintnence the whole time i worked there (10 years), were abused by novices and people who would rather break a tool then use it. I don't remember a single problem other then chain, bar and sprocket maintnence, certainly no overhauls. I bought my first 025 used probably about 2000 or sooner . Expect I had near 50 hours on it before it was stolen, but no mechanical failures and i got another 1 i put countless hours on with no mechanical failures I can remember. I bought several 025's and ms250s in various states of conditions that i restored to usable condition, tested for hours, then resold. I think the 50 hour life expectancy is bs, i have seen them on some cheap Poulan and knockoff brands, but the 025's I have been around and used held up superb, no less then pro models. Ms 250 should be just as reliable as it is basically the same with minor changes.


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## 503mckinney (Jan 27, 2021)

Brushwacker said:


> I 'll bite too. I just skimmed through a little bit of the thread and it blows me away people think an cs 400 is way better then an ms250. I have owned 2 used echo cs 400s and used them intermittently with my other saws a couple or so years and i have a brand-new 1 in the box unopened I snagged a bit under retail at an auction. Before breaking open the new 1 i wanted to confirm I'd like and use it enough to keep it. So I paid about $165 for a used 1 on ebay, which ended up not a good deal because it came with a slightly bent bar i ended up replacing. So I put on a new 16inch bar and chain and used it and compared it to my old 025 i been using several years and an more recent 023 I bought. What I liked better about the 400 is the starter was easiar to pull and smoother , and less vibration but none of them 2 things are a problem to me on the 2 old stihls. I am 62 years old, with a not so good right shoulder, and some worn and torn bones and joints. My 025 which is nearly the same as the ms250 I can use it many hours at a time without noticing fatigue or soreness from it. My 026 would tire me sooner.
> The geometry of the cs400 with a16 inch bar made my back sore bucking wood on the ground for more then a tank or so of fuel, power was much closer to the 023, not near the muffler modded 025 and not near as snappy throttling it. The second cs400 I snagged cheap at a yard sale with an new 18in bar ran about the same and the 18in bar seemed a bit easiar on my back. I did like using it trimming small limbs and trees that needed removed but overall I would grab the 025 more because the power was there for bigger trees I usually encounter at the same time. As for reliability, i been around and using 025's since 1994 the first was at my job at a state tree nursery. They had an 025 , 034 super, and an 048 i and various employees and prison offenders used on and off through the year cutting firewood, brush, maintaining windbreaks. We had at least 5 wood furnaces originally between several buildings, went to 2 outside wood boilers for a couple buildings a few years later. All 3 of the saws were well used when i started and they cut all the firewood and other tree maintnence the whole time i worked there (10 years), were abused by novices and people who would rather break a tool then use it. I don't remember a single problem other then chain, bar and sprocket maintnence, certainly no overhauls. I bought my first 025 used probably about 2000 or sooner . Expect I had near 50 hours on it before it was stolen, but no mechanical failures and i got another 1 i put countless hours on with no mechanical failures I can remember. I bought several 025's and ms250s in various states of conditions that i restored to usable condition, tested for hours, then resold. I think the 50 hour life expectancy is bs, i have seen them on some cheap Poulan and knockoff brands, but the 025's I have been around and used held up superb, no less then pro models. Ms 250 should be just as reliable as it is basically the same with minor changes.



your correct it is entirely BS. Every Stihl product comes with lined engine bores are rated higher than 50hours. The 50hr rating is for low end Poulan and the old Homelite equivalents. Far below either the Echo or Stihl products. By the way If anyone is interested I can share a John Deere fiasco story from the late 90’s. It has to do with their purchase of Homelite as I was one of the product specialist involved in moving the manufacturing to Mexico. Lol.


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## hosocat (Jan 27, 2021)

Huh...nobody's recommending the most popular selling 40 cc class saw sold in America. The poulan pro 42cc.


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## Goinwheelin (Jan 27, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> I don’t work there but I do sell a lot of injection molding equipment to them and have for years now so have spent a great deal of time onsite. The reason I found this post is I was at two dealers today looking at saws and both dealers had both products on hand to compare to each another. Both dealers also said both saws have proven to be about equal in performance and reliability with the MS-250 being slightly stouter due to having a slightly larger engine. One of the dealers has worked on my CS-400 3 times now so is intimate with all the issues I’ve had but assures me that most saws of this model have proven reliable. The reason I own the Echo is I own several farms one of which is within 2 miles of a Echo dealer. This being said I may buy another CS-400 due to dealer location as it just makes sense at this particular farm. With this said I own the following Stihl products. All units are less than 8 years old but have had only one problem and that was with a plugged spark arrester on my MS-241 c-m which I cleaned a few weeks ago so saw runs flawlessly now. Below are all the products I currently own.
> 
> -1999 shindiawa trimmer. Never worked on and has been a great trimmer.
> 
> ...


I understand. I own both Echo and Stihl products. Both are great

If you want to sell that cs400 let me know


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## mountainlake (Jan 28, 2021)

If you cant get a Echo CS400 running good you need a new mechanic. They run great and are really reliable when tuned right. The limiter caps have to be pulled and tuned good as with most saws now days. Steve


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## Cliff R (Jan 28, 2021)

+2 on that deal. Those are excellent little saws, dead solid reliable in long term service.

I've spent some time with the MS-250's, inexperience homeowners tend to get the choke mechanism all messed up, but otherwise decent for the price point and a popular little saw in these parts......


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## Goinwheelin (Jan 28, 2021)

Cursory search found that Stihl does in fact make saws in China. In my experience with Stihl homeowner/ranch equipment is they are heavy for their power output and overpriced therefore I avoid them and would choose an Echo product any day of the week.


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## Hickahollar (Jan 28, 2021)

mountainlake said:


> So the 50 hour Stihl is going to outlast the 300 hours Echo, give me some common sence reasoning for





mountainlake said:


> Hey Mike Sure is fun dealing with these guys that have nothing to back up what the say. Steve


Echo's have a cat sthil doesn't just proves echo's catalytic converter is better than sthil's. I own both echo and sthil I like them both. I own a ms250 dont have any bark with a cs400 but I own a cs3510. My ms250 is far better even the plastic seems tougher than the echo plastic.


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## Dcsco (Jan 28, 2021)

The cs400 fits between the 193t and the 261 rather nicely. Once on the ground I use the cs400 until I need the 261 and on to bigger if I have to.


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## hosocat (Jan 28, 2021)

Yeah, the plastic on the echo seems significantly thinner than stihl. I think the stihl could withstand more abuse and dropping. However, i drove off with the gate of my truck down. My cs400 fell out at about 25mph onto pavement. The brake handle broke, but i replaced that and its still running strong.


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## 503mckinney (Jan 28, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Cursory search found that Stihl does in fact make saws in China. In my experience with Stihl homeowner/ranch equipment is they are heavy for their power output and overpriced therefore I avoid them and would choose an Echo product any day of the week.


Yes they do but none are shipped to the US market. This is from their Qingdao factory in China. But this factory only supplies the Asia markets with power tools. All professional series saws and many other high end products are manufactured in Germany and shipped around the world. All home owner and mid grade saws trimmers etc for the US and many other markets are manufactured in Virginia Beach along with trimmers, blowers, and tank sprayers etc. They also manufacture nylon trimmer line and have 4-5 Extruders that run miles and miles of the stuff annually. The US market is their meat and potatoes so to speak and it’s protected and supported accordingly.


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## Goinwheelin (Jan 28, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> Yes they do but none are shipped to the US market.


I never said they were. But I think that fact coupled with the lackluster quality as of late has led to the “made in china” confusion.


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## 503mckinney (Jan 28, 2021)

By the way tell me more about the limiter caps. So when I purchased the cs-400 new in 2015 it ran great. Very smooth and snappy. Then after about 5-10 hours of use it was hard to start, has to idle like forever before will take fuel and or will not stay running. Now during last use in 35F temps it won’t hardly take fuel at all and continues to die. I replaced the fuel filter, spark plug, air filter, and checked spark arrestor. Still no improvement. So figured at time since under warranty I would take to first dealer. They adjusted the carb and said was fixed. Seemed fine for first hour or two then started to die again. Brought it home from Ohio and dropped off at local dealer. Same thing as they tweaked carb and thought all set. Long story short this same senerio has happened 4 times now at 3 different dealers. At this point I’m at a loss as are the dealers. With this said do the limiter caps need to be removed in order to achieve appropriate amount of adjustment required for proper tuning? If so one would think a dealer would do this but honestly I don’t know to what extent they tried adjusting the carb. Also seems weird that Echo would restrict something to a point there’s not enough adjustment to properly tune the equipment. Thoughts? 
Thank you.


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## Franny K (Jan 28, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> it won’t hardly take fuel at all and continues to die


That sounds like the low speed adjustment, that one might find better setting within the allowed range.
The dealers can't or won't really work it hard, set it down then try and start it. Occasionally something needs multiple adjustments over quite a time and then seems pretty much ok. I have a pole saw like that the dealer made it better but it did not last like you state.

Maybe this should be the Stihl MS251 vs the Echo 361p some 10 years later.


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## 503mckinney (Jan 28, 2021)

Hmm ok so seems to make sense. Maybe this is why the dealers can’t or won’t fix. I’ll dig into further tomorrow to see what I can find out. Thanks


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## Goinwheelin (Jan 28, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> By the way tell me more about the limiter caps. So when I purchased the cs-400 new in 2015 it ran great. Very smooth and snappy. Then after about 5-10 hours of use it was hard to start, has to idle like forever before will take fuel and or will not stay running. Now during last use in 35F temps it won’t hardly take fuel at all and continues to die. I replaced the fuel filter, spark plug, air filter, and checked spark arrestor. Still no improvement. So figured at time since under warranty I would take to first dealer. They adjusted the carb and said was fixed. Seemed fine for first hour or two then started to die again. Brought it home from Ohio and dropped off at local dealer. Same thing as they tweaked carb and thought all set. Long story short this same senerio has happened 4 times now at 3 different dealers. At this point I’m at a loss as are the dealers. With this said do the limiter caps need to be removed in order to achieve appropriate amount of adjustment required for proper tuning? If so one would think a dealer would do this but honestly I don’t know to what extent they tried adjusting the carb. Also seems weird that Echo would restrict something to a point there’s not enough adjustment to properly tune the equipment. Thoughts?
> Thank you.


The limiters are an EPA thing to meet emissions as well as keeping idiots from burning the saw up. It’s not just Echo, you will find other manufacturers also use limiters on their consumer saws. Even Stihl. Go look at your MS271. Nice thing about the Echo is it only takes a drywall screw to remove the limiters and get full adjustment if needed.


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## Hickahollar (Jan 28, 2021)

If it idles and won't rev up very well I would say adjust your low side screw. If it just won't adjust very well then I would think the carb diaphragm is gone bad.


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## mountainlake (Jan 29, 2021)

503mckinney said:


> By the way tell me more about the limiter caps. So when I purchased the cs-400 new in 2015 it ran great. Very smooth and snappy. Then after about 5-10 hours of use it was hard to start, has to idle like forever before will take fuel and or will not stay running. Now during last use in 35F temps it won’t hardly take fuel at all and continues to die. I replaced the fuel filter, spark plug, air filter, and checked spark arrestor. Still no improvement. So figured at time since under warranty I would take to first dealer. They adjusted the carb and said was fixed. Seemed fine for first hour or two then started to die again. Brought it home from Ohio and dropped off at local dealer. Same thing as they tweaked carb and thought all set. Long story short this same senerio has happened 4 times now at 3 different dealers. At this point I’m at a loss as are the dealers. With this said do the limiter caps need to be removed in order to achieve appropriate amount of adjustment required for proper tuning? If so one would think a dealer would do this but honestly I don’t know to what extent they tried adjusting the carb. Also seems weird that Echo would restrict something to a point there’s not enough adjustment to properly tune the equipment. Thoughts?
> Thank you.


 

You might have scored the piston from being tuned lean, pull the muff off and look. Steve


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## Cliff R (Jan 29, 2021)

Might not be the carb. To date I've had two Echo coils fail in similar fashion. They start fine cold, run fine for a while, then start acting up when fully heat soaked. Thru me off at first because with coils it's typically they work or they don't. 

Echo used some re-limiting and timing-retard modules in their coils. I'm pretty sure the CS-370/400's have the timing retard version. Might be something the dealer needs to look at if adjusting the carb isn't correcting the issues.......Cliff


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