# Splitters are overrated in splitting force



## AKKAMAAN (Oct 13, 2008)

Seems like most manufacturers need to take a math class or/and business ethic class.

There is a pressure rating limit on hydraulic components, and 3000psi or 200bar is a very common limit for components. Components rated higher than 3000psi make a huge jump up in cost. That’s why most splitters are built with components rated 3000psi or less.

Most splitter are built with 4” and 5” cylinder diameters. 
4”cylinder will push a 6.25 ton force for every 1000 psi system pressure
5”cylinder will push a 9.8 ton force for every 1000 psi system pressure

As you can see it is impossible to get 34 tons out of 4” cylinder if pressure is less than 5370psi, or a 5” cylinder if pressure is less than 3460psi.

Make sure you splitter have at least a 5” cylinder if you want to be even close to these bragging right splitting forces. Or maybe it is enough with a 12-16 ton splitting force????

Here are some examples where splitters are advertized with BS ton rating and simple math show it’s impossible. First let’s agree on how to calculate the splitting force. 
Cylinder Force,F, is the product , of system pressure, p, and the cross area, A, of the piston or the bore. F=pxA. 

Area on a circle is calculated as the diameter, D, by it self, D2, multiplied with Pi, 3.14, divided with 4. A=D2x3.14/4.

Take a look at this NorthStar Horizontal/Vertical Log Splitter — 37-Ton http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326296_200326296
3500psix5”x5”x3.14/4psi=34ton if the SYSTEM PRESSURE is 3500psi. It says the max pump pressure is 3500psi but that could be the max rating for the pump. WHAT IS THE SYSTEM PRESSURE?? It is still not 37 tons


Next one. Log splitter Model # 9000 http://www.splitez.com/log_splitter_woodsplitters_9.html
Ad says ”34 TONS OF SPLITTING FORCE”. The cylinder is rated 3000psi, they don’t tell the system pressure, which can’t be more than 3000psi. 
3000psix5”x5”x3.14/4psi= less than 19.5 tons, which is just little more than half the 34ton rating.

Last one. http://www.americanmsr.com/product-specs.htm
All their splitters have a 2500psi system pressure. The 24 ton splitters have a 4” bore which give you a less than 16 ton force. They have one 25 ton and a 26 ton splitter with 5” bore which give you 24.5 tons. That ‘s almost acceptable. Half a ton off.

Most manufacturers and retailer don’t show all “the cards” in their data sheets. And they know they are putting up BS tons on their splitters. I have checked about 20 different ads on splitters and only these three have provided enough data to do the math. So I think we need this business to start straighten up………Otherwise we will keep buying bigger and bigger splitters just for bragging rights and not for actual power force……. I have a feeling the cycle times are a little more accurate, checked a few briefly and they look close to OK, but I’m sure there are some sales people that didn’t pass the junior high school math to calculate the cycle time either…………….


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## mga (Oct 13, 2008)

good post, akkamaan.

we've questioned this many times here as well.

most of us use hydraulic tables to determine tonnage in a splitter, apparently manufacturers have their own tables they go by.


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 13, 2008)

Tell us something we don't know, lol. Marketing lies, that's all.


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## HUSKYMAN (Oct 13, 2008)

Numbers sell splitters, doesnt matter if they are true or not. 

Its the same as throwing a 22" bar on a 40cc Poulan Wild Thing. Hey it has a 22" bar so it is made to cut big trees all the time, right?


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## ktm250rider (Oct 13, 2008)

So what size splitter would be adequate for a 10 cord per season user? I just borrowed my first splitter to take out some 20-24" pine that I just couldnt get with the maul. Dont know the specifics but it took them out just fine. Most of my hard woods I like to split by hand. Im deffinately afflicted with "BIBS" (bigger is better syndrom) but would I really need a 33 ton or would a 27 ton be sufficient?


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 13, 2008)

ktm250rider said:


> So what size splitter would be adequate for a 10 cord per season user? I just borrowed my first splitter to take out some 20-24" pine that I just couldnt get with the maul. Dont know the specifics but it took them out just fine. Most of my hard woods I like to split by hand. Im deffinately afflicted with "BIBS" (bigger is better syndrom) but would I really need a 33 ton or would a 27 ton be sufficient?



first we gotta start taling about real force, not the bs force in sale ads......
for the price this seems to be a good deal....it's called for 22ton if it makes 3000psi it will do 18.75 tons. 1360$ and also add the 4 way wedge. 
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326288_200326288http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326288_200326288


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## Nailsbeats (Oct 13, 2008)

ktm250rider said:


> So what size splitter would be adequate for a 10 cord per season user? I just borrowed my first splitter to take out some 20-24" pine that I just couldnt get with the maul. Dont know the specifics but it took them out just fine. Most of my hard woods I like to split by hand. Im deffinately afflicted with "BIBS" (bigger is better syndrom) but would I really need a 33 ton or would a 27 ton be sufficient?



Get the 27T speeco, fastest cycle they have and at a great price. I just got one and absolutely love it. I made 300 face cord a year growing up, so I have run some splitters, built some too. Bigger is not always better.


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## wkpoor (Oct 13, 2008)

My splitter has only a 4" cylinder with only 2000lbs pressure and does just fine. Sure there is an occasional piece it can't get through but never seen a piece the chainsaw couldn't get through so I don't worry about it. My big deal in splitters is speed, baby speed!!


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 13, 2008)

wkpoor said:


> My splitter has only a 4" cylinder with only 2000lbs pressure and does just fine. Sure there is an occasional piece it can't get through but never seen a piece the chainsaw couldn't get through so I don't worry about it. My big deal in splitters is speed, baby speed!!



Rebuild your splitter and add 3-5 times the speed with a regenerative function on your directional valve or a automatic inline valve between directional valve and cylinder. What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster.

They both do the thing but the one built in to the directional valve is manual, it's 4 position directional valve with 2 speeds out price about 100$ from Prince
MODEL LSR-3060 RAPID EXTEND LOG SPLITTER VALVE

The inline automatic valve is from Sun Hydraulics and cost about 170$

This regenerative function seems to be used on many 25-50 000$ firewood processors


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## Patrick62 (Oct 13, 2008)

*Yep.*

My machine will go to 22 tons, no doubt about it.
My beam would probably fold over at about 18 tons.

Thankfully I don't do hard woods out here. I can cut pine in half sideways.

I know the math pretty well, 5" cylinder, 16gpm pump and a 15hp engine.
It ain't fast. Very effective.

-Pat


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

Patrick62 said:


> My machine will go to 22 tons, no doubt about it.
> My beam would probably fold over at about 18 tons.
> 
> Thankfully I don't do hard woods out here. I can cut pine in half sideways.
> ...



I'm sure it does 22 tons if you have at least 2250psi system pressure
15hp and 16 gpm pump is respectable, should be very effective....


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## 046 (Oct 14, 2008)

let me get this right... with a directional valve... it's possible to increase speeds by 3x -5x faster?



AKKAMAAN said:


> Rebuild your splitter and add 3-5 times the speed with a regenerative function on your directional valve or a automatic inline valve between directional valve and cylinder. What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster.
> 
> They both do the thing but the one built in to the directional valve is manual, it's 4 position directional valve with 2 speeds out price about 100$ from Prince
> MODEL LSR-3060 RAPID EXTEND LOG SPLITTER VALVE
> ...


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

046 said:


> let me get this right... with a directional valve... it's possible to increase speeds by 3x -5x faster?



yes sir, the increase depends on your piston rod diameter...the thinner diameter the faster speed. 
read the Prince Hydraulic product informationfor the MODEL LSR-3060 RAPID EXTEND LOG SPLITTER VALVE

this is a qoute from that pdf-file.....
"STANDARD FEATURES
• Hydraulically balanced, hard chrome plated spool
• Handle can be installed in “up” or “down” position
• Extend flows of up to 25 GPM with inlet flows of 4 GPM
• Relief valve adjustable up to 3500 PSI
• Tandem center spool
• Manual shift from high speed mode to high force mode
• Spring center 4 position spool with soft stop
• Pressure release detent on retract
FUNCTION:
The Prince LSR-3060-3 log splitter valve features an extremely
fast “Rapid Extend” high speed mode. The LSR
has been specifically designed to reducesystem costs by
allowing a single stage pump to be used in systems currently
using two stage (hi-low) pumps. When extra splitting
force is required, the LSR allows the user to manually shift
form high speed mode to high force mode. A “soft stop”
differentiates between high force and high speed modes.
Laboratory testing has not shown a significant difference
in working cycle times between single stage/rapid extend
systems and two stage systems. (Working cycle is the
average time between extending the cylinder to split the
first log and extending to split the next log after the split
wood has been removed and a new log has been placed on the log splitter.)"


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## 046 (Oct 14, 2008)

OK... thanks.... this may fix my speeco 35 ton (25 actual), dog slow 15 second cycle times. 

$100 to speed up cycle times will be well worth it. will I have to change out any hoses? it's got 1/2in ID currently... would need 3/4in to upgrade to 22 gpm pump.


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## Wet1 (Oct 14, 2008)

wkpoor said:


> My splitter has only a 4" cylinder with only 2000lbs pressure and does just fine. Sure there is an occasional piece it can't get through but never seen a piece the chainsaw couldn't get through so I don't worry about it. My big deal in splitters is speed, baby speed!!



Try a Super Split, you'll never look at another hydraulic splitter again!


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

046 said:


> OK... thanks.... this may fix my speeco 35 ton (25 actual), dog slow 15 second cycle times.
> 
> $100 to speed up cycle times will be well worth it. will I have to change out any hoses? it's got 1/2in ID currently... would need 3/4in to upgrade to 22 gpm pump.


You should definately upgrade to R17-12 3/4" 3000psi on at least on that valve port going to the piston rod side of cylinder. (piston going in) 

URL: www.princehyd.com • E-MAIL: [email protected] • PHONE (605) 235-1220
Contact Prince, and give them your pump data (cui per rev and rpm) bore diam, piston rod diam. They will tell you if you can get FULL performance with your pump-cyl combo. I guess you will end up with a 5 sec high speed cycle, because your regenerated flow will be higher than valve rated 25gpm. 
Prince will also give you the local retailer for this valve. There was a 6 week waiting list on this valve when I called. Good luck!


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

Wet1 said:


> Try a Super Split, you'll never look at another hydraulic splitter again!



Very impressive!!
Wonder how it will do with a 4-way wedge??
http://www.supersplit.com/index.htm


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## cityevader (Oct 14, 2008)

So does that mean the regeneration valve _can't_ be used with a 2 stage pump if you already have it?


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## Wet1 (Oct 14, 2008)

AKKAMAAN said:


> Very impressive!!
> Wonder how it will do with a 4-way wedge??
> http://www.supersplit.com/index.htm



Probably not all that well, but then again I also haven't felt a need for a 4-way up to this point... You can split a lot of wood very quickly with the SS, even w/o the 4-way. In fact, I'd guess a SS would still run circles around all but the top of the line hydraulic units equipped with a 4-way. But then again, those models are MUCH more costly than a SS and I'm still not sure some of them would run with a SS, even though they cost 2, 3, even 4 times as much

I've run many hydraulic splitters and I can tell you I'll never go back after running the SS.


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## 046 (Oct 14, 2008)

called Prince several times... and got the deluxe run around. 
all I want to do is buy a valve... can't get thru to technical... they referred to a distributor.... who referred to a salesman.... who referred to an outside sales.... arggggggg

what a way to treat someone to wants to spend $$$



AKKAMAAN said:


> You should definately upgrade to R17-12 3/4" 3000psi on at least on that valve port going to the piston rod side of cylinder. (piston going in)
> 
> URL: www.princehyd.com • E-MAIL: [email protected] • PHONE (605) 235-1220
> Contact Prince, and give them your pump data (cui per rev and rpm) bore diam, piston rod diam. They will tell you if you can get FULL performance with your pump-cyl combo. I guess you will end up with a 5 sec high speed cycle, because your regenerated flow will be higher than valve rated 25gpm.
> Prince will also give you the local retailer for this valve. There was a 6 week waiting list on this valve when I called. Good luck!


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## WidowMaker (Oct 14, 2008)

"What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster."


------

Please explain how this is possible...


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## cityevader (Oct 14, 2008)

:agree2:


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## leon (Oct 14, 2008)

*hydraulics etc*



WidowMaker said:


> "What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster."
> 
> 
> ------
> ...



Ok all it is doing is robbing pressure/flow from the rod end of the cylinder generated from the resistance of splitting and feeding it back and redirecting it to the piston end/barrel end of the cylinder rather than allowing it to return back to tank at a very low pressure.

It is using the back pressure/resistance developed on the rod and and delivering to the piston end of the cylinder.  opcorn:


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## wkpoor (Oct 14, 2008)

> Rebuild your splitter and add 3-5 times the speed with a regenerative function on your directional valve or a automatic inline valve between directional valve and cylinder. What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster.



Actually my splitter is lighting fast with a 6sec cycle time. I was only pointing out that it doesn't take alot of pressure to split wood. And that speed is there regardless of how tough the wood is because I have a single stage pump.


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## kevin j (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WidowMaker 
"What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster."


------

Please explain how this is possible... 

Ok all it is doing is robbing pressure/flow from the rod end of the cylinder generated from the resistance of splitting and feeding it back and redirecting it to the piston end/barrel end of the cylinder rather than allowing it to return back to tank at a very low pressure.

It is using the back pressure/resistance developed on the rod and and delivering to the piston end of the cylinder.
Q




Pretty much it. what it physically does is connect the rod side and closed side together, so that any oil coming out of rod side goes to closed side. Thus, the only area that is effective for the 'new oil' coming in is the area of the steel rod. The 4B 2R cylinder effectively is a 2 inch single acting ram at that point, thus the 4x speed and 1/4 of the force. Once the pressure reaches some load pressure (set by the spring in the regen valve and usually adjustable), the regen effect drops out, the return oil from rod side goes to tank, and the cylinder becomes a 4 B area again. Full force, but back to original speed.

Two stage pumps put out high volume at low presure, low volume at high pressure. 
Regeneration takes whatever the flow is and extends the cylinder in either high speed low force (rod area only) or reverts back to normal high force full area slower speed.
With two stage pump regen actually might be too fast and be dangerous.
It is a good quick fix for small single stage pump (cheaper for the OEM than a two stage pump)
It only works in extension. Retract is whatever pump flow dictates. 


k


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

WidowMaker said:


> "What it does is that it disable the piston on the rod and only push on the rod. 4" bore with a 2" rod will go 4 times faster."
> 
> 
> ------
> ...



OK here it is.....First time I saw this was on a logging crane that had a telescope end. The 2" cylinder with a 1" rod, had a piston with a little check valve with a soft spring. That check valve disabled the piston on outgoing action, and the oil on the rod side took a short cut thru the checkvalve into the closed side of the piston. The only oil the pump needed to supply was the volume of the piston rod going out. This setup can only give you one speed on outgoing, and barerly no force at all (1" rod diameter). That telescope was going out with help of gravity.

To make a 2 speed set up we need to control the regeneretion of oil. That can be done the long way thru the manual 4th position in the directional valve, or half way thru the automatic inline valve between directional valve and cylinder.


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

046 said:


> called Prince several times... and got the deluxe run around.
> all I want to do is buy a valve... can't get thru to technical... they referred to a distributor.... who referred to a salesman.... who referred to an outside sales.... arggggggg
> 
> what a way to treat someone to wants to spend $$$



Sorry to hear that....did you get a retail number...here is my closest retailer, Spencer Fluid Power in Kent WA. 1-800-367-5646 or Yakima wa 1-800-572-8351.


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

cityevader said:


> So does that mean the regeneration valve _can't_ be used with a 2 stage pump if you already have it?



I think it will work. If there is to high flow on 2nd stage it will just jam up in the directional valve with a lot of pressure loss......and a slower speed but still faster than normal......but best to check with the sales engineer.....se my ph # on other post on this thread


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 14, 2008)

AKKAMAAN said:


> You should definately upgrade to R17-12 3/4" 3000psi on at least on that valve port going to the piston rod side of cylinder. (piston going in)
> 
> URL: www.princehyd.com • E-MAIL: [email protected] • PHONE (605) 235-1220
> Contact Prince, and give them your pump data (cui per rev and rpm) bore diam, piston rod diam. They will tell you if you can get FULL performance with your pump-cyl combo. I guess you will end up with a 5 sec high speed cycle, because your regenerated flow will be higher than valve rated 25gpm.
> Prince will also give you the local retailer for this valve. There was a 6 week waiting list on this valve when I called. Good luck!



Sorry had a hit of Alzheimers here, of course you need to upgrade both hoses to cylinder 3/4" minimum


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## 046 (Oct 14, 2008)

ok... I get it... 

will the regen valve work on return stroke too?


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## AKKAMAAN (Oct 15, 2008)

046 said:


> ok... I get it...
> 
> will the regen valve work on return stroke too?



Nope thats technically impossible....I mean valve will work but only regular speed....no magic there...


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## wkpoor (Oct 15, 2008)

Seems to me putting pressure on both side of the piston means it will only move in one direction do to differential area. Thats why its only good for extend. 

In my case already having super fast cycle times this mod would allow me to run the tractor just above idle and still maintain speed. As it is now I run at 1500RPM E-PTO.


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