# New to climbing-questions



## MIspecial (Nov 11, 2009)

I've been a in the landscape business for 15 year and been a ground worker for a tree service for a few winters. I got a new job in the grounds dept. on a large campus. Part of the job includes tree work. Most of the removals are done from the basket of a sky track. But during the winter most of the pruning is done by climbing. I have had limited climbing experience. The guys that I work with seem to use out dated/unsafe ways of climbing. My boss ok'd me to buy a saddle and lanyard. The guys use old traditional-style saddles (without leg straps) and only a buckstap as a TIP. I'm not sure what I should get. It seems that their way of climbing would leave you not tied in when moving positions in the tree. They use no ropes of any sort. What is the difference between a lanyard and a flipline? Should I have 2? Flipline with a micro adjustor or a 2-n-1 lanyard? Any help would be great.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 11, 2009)

MIspecial said:


> I've been a in the landscape business for 15 year and been a ground worker for a tree service for a few winters. I got a new job in the grounds dept. on a large campus. Part of the job includes tree work. Most of the removals are done from the basket of a sky track. But during the winter most of the pruning is done by climbing. I have had limited climbing experience. The guys that I work with seem to use out dated/unsafe ways of climbing. My boss ok'd me to buy a saddle and lanyard. The guys use old traditional-style saddles (without leg straps) and only a buckstap as a TIP. I'm not sure what I should get. It seems that their way of climbing would leave you not tied in when moving positions in the tree. They use no ropes of any sort. What is the difference between a lanyard and a flipline? Should I have 2? Flipline with a micro adjustor or a 2-n-1 lanyard? Any help would be great.



ORDER THIS TONIGHT FROM SherrillTree.com $15






*THEN FIND AN INSTRUCTOR!!!*

Be safe,
Jack


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## MIspecial (Nov 12, 2009)

Done-


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## outofmytree (Nov 12, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> OREDER THIS TONIGHT FROM SherrillTree.com $15
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen.


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## MIspecial (Nov 12, 2009)

Anyone want to add anything until I get the book?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

MIspecial said:


> Anyone want to add anything until I get the book?



Start by checking out the "climbing kits" from one of the sponsors websites and determine how much you can spend.


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## Jgraham798 (Nov 12, 2009)

*THEN FIND AN INSTRUCTOR!!!*


Where would I find an instructor? 

I have a full time job and won't be able to work for a tree company, besides, no one would hire an old man like me


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## bruce6670 (Nov 12, 2009)

MIspecial said:


> Anyone want to add anything until I get the book?



Just don't let the untrained guys that you are working with push you into an unsafe position.
Keep safe.


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## jburlingham (Nov 12, 2009)

bruce6670 said:


> Just *don't let the* untrained *guys that you are working with push you into an unsafe position*.
> Keep safe.



+1

Trained or untrained if they are working unsafely they may try to push you to do the same, remember there is nothing more important then your life, so don't put it at unnecessary risk. Get the training as soon as you can, and inspect your gear to make sure its safe to use periodically.


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## RacerX (Nov 12, 2009)

Professional instruction would be nice but you can learn on your own if you're so motivated. Basic climbing is not rocket science. Start out with the most simple setup, master it and then move on. By simple I mean all that you'll need to get off of the ground is a rope, saddle, carabiner and a Blake climbing hitch. Read the TCC several times, master the basic knots and hitches while your feet are on the ground, and learn all that you can from the experts here. Start low and slow. Good luck.


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## bruce6670 (Nov 12, 2009)

RacerX said:


> Professional instruction would be nice but you can learn on your own if you're so motivated. Basic climbing is not rocket science. Start out with the most simple setup, master it and then move on. By simple I mean all that you'll need to get off of the ground is a rope, saddle, carabiner and a Blake climbing hitch. Read the TCC several times, master the basic knots and hitches while your feet are on the ground, and learn all that you can from the experts here. Start low and slow. Good luck.



:agree2:

The TCC and some practice on the ground will get you started.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

RacerX said:


> Professional instruction would be nice but *you can learn on your own* if you're so motivated. *Basic climbing is not rocket science.* Start out with the most simple setup, master it and then move on. By simple I mean all that you'll need to get off of the ground is a rope, saddle, carabiner and a Blake climbing hitch. Read the TCC several times, master the basic knots and hitches while your feet are on the ground, and learn all that you can from the experts here. Start *low and slow*. Good luck.


:agree2: *+1*
*LOW AND SLOW* will keep you alive. Learn everything LOW & SLOW ... when you :censored:UP close to the ground you can get back up and try it again. Don't submit to pressure to go high 'til you can do it in your sleep. What you don't know WILL kill you - so will pressure from (so called) "peers".

*BE SAFE*

_"Basic climbing is not rocket science."_ *SIMPLE BUT DEADLY*.


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## Nailsbeats (Nov 12, 2009)

In my opinion, you'll be more likely to get hurt from cutting and rigging then climbing. You can learn all the climbing yourself, low and slow, but what about when it comes time to put a piece of timber into motion on a rope with a chainsaw? That's where the instructor is invaluable.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

Nailsbeats said:


> In my opinion, you'll be more likely to get hurt from cutting and rigging then climbing. You can learn all the climbing yourself, low and slow, but what about when it comes time to put *a piece of timber into motion on a rope* with a chainsaw? That's where the instructor is invaluable.



Excellent point ... my biggest fear, above ALL others, is being hit by _"a piece of timber in... motion on a rope"_ 

The physics of rigging is a lot more like rocket science than climbing!


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## TreeW?rx (Nov 12, 2009)

I know how hard it can be to find some one to teach you what yo need to know, but with a little time on the internet you can find an instructor for climbing. I did. If you dont have the luxury of someone to teach you what you need to know about tree work, then buy every book you can get your hands on and read them over and over. Where I live there is no one to learn from. I am on my second trip through Pirrones Tree Main right now. I also spend hours here on AS reading everything I can and asking any dumb question that pops in to my mind. Actually there are no dumb questions. What you dont know can get you killed. Ask away, every one of the veteran Arborists here will be more than happy to lend their years of experience. You might even be able to find some one on here that lives near you.


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 12, 2009)

I like my micro-cender alot better than a 2 in 1. The 2 in 1 is not really 2 in one because you can only adjust one side. So if you are moving around a limb one side will be the correct length and the other probably way too long. A climbing line will be a great thing to use. You will quickly be impressing the other guys on the crew and doing things easier as well. They are rather limited in their skills and equipment. Be safe and keep asking questions. But do a search first! ..... Mike


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## Greener (Nov 13, 2009)

*Find a Mentor*



MIspecial said:


> Anyone want to add anything until I get the book?



I am self-trained and no expert by any means but what I have learned it no video or book can replace a seasoned climber to consult with. Network and find climbers in the business who have good habits. Ask them questions constantly. You could supplement this with some good literature that can be ordered from Wespur.com. Go slow is good advice but the key is good equipment. Make sure you research the basic climing methods: single rope, etc, then choose one you like. Bottom line: don't take any job you are not yet ready for-without help.


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## Greener (Nov 13, 2009)

*Leaners-question*

I am looking at a job with several small leaners-alders. The drop zone is limited and some of the trees are too small to climb. Any suggestions on getting these down without an assistant?


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 13, 2009)

Sometimes you can hang them off a nearby tree. If you have a way to pull tension like a grcs or a fiddle block you can lift them..... Mike


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## Tree Pig (Nov 13, 2009)

The problem with learning on your own is that if you dont have someone experienced there to tell you when your doing something wrong then by the time you find out you just screwed up it maybe too late.


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## Greener (Nov 14, 2009)

*Words of Wisdom*



Stihl-O-Matic said:


> The problem with learning on your own is that if you dont have someone experienced there to tell you when your doing something wrong then by the time you find out you just screwed up it maybe too late.



Stihl-O-Matic, I can't argue with your words here. Some of us are just not fortunate to have a mentor or someone with experience to watch our back. Until then, I'll just take the little jobs and avoid the risky ones. I have been fortunate so far, I have usually known when I was making mistakes prior to doing so.


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## Greener (Nov 14, 2009)

*Sounds good*



Mikecutstrees said:


> Sometimes you can hang them off a nearby tree. If you have a way to pull tension like a grcs or a fiddle block you can lift them..... Mike




Thanks Mike. I tried to attach the photo in jped but it failed for some reason. I was planning to block from a neighboring tree already. You just affirmed this plan. Thanks.


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## Mikecutstrees (Nov 14, 2009)

Be sure to get the line tied near the top of the tree to be removed. You don't want it to flip over on you. Try to get the other end even higher. Good luck..... Mike


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## dundermifflin (Nov 14, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Start by checking out the "climbing kits" from one of the sponsors websites and determine how much you can spend.



I'm also new to climbing...I read the "Climbers Companion" book and now I browse through it all the time and use it as a reference....it's a great book. I also bought this climbing kit http://www.sherrilltree.com/Recreational-Gear/Climbing-Kits_2/Climbing-Kit-433 and I was lucky enough to have an experienced climber giving me instructions. But, reading through the book and mastering each technique before I moved on to the next one seemed to be the best approach for me.


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## rarefish383 (Nov 15, 2009)

A little input from an old school guy. I am 4th generation in the family doing residential tree removal. We work in the Wash DC metro area around a lot of slate rooves and copper gutters. Safety is the only thing. I use an old style safety belt with double D rings and no leg straps. You can hang upside down and have the belt slip off, so you have to know your equipment and know it's limits. My advice, get leg straps.

In the initial post you said they use no ropes at all. I'm confused. The only way to climb the tree with no ropes would be to hook it. You don't use hooks on a tree you're pruning, only take downs.

When I was young and dumb I would run up a tree with no safety (take downs only) just hand grip and hooks. Now you couldn't pay me to take 2 steps up without a safety. When up the tree I always have 2 points of security. My climbing line over a limb and my safety around the trunk. Often I will have the tail of my rope crotched in for 3 points. The older I get the more I like living.

I hope I don't PO any lawn men with what I say next but if so, Oh Well. If you say you can't find an experienced mentor, hog wash. You can always find a tree guy that will give you yard work from his regular customers, If you give him tree work from your yard customers. Often he'll let you do the contracting and give you his pric and let you add on a premium for yourself. Since it's your job you hang out and get some hands on experienc. You can start to run ropes and see how things are done. Learn. Will this help you on that big tree you just way under bid for tomorrow, nope. I've got more to say, but I'm late for Church, see ya, Joe.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 15, 2009)

dundermifflin said:


> I'm also new to climbing...I read the "Climbers Companion" book and now I browse through it all the time and use it as a reference....it's a great book. I also bought this climbing kit http://www.sherrilltree.com/Recreational-Gear/Climbing-Kits_2/Climbing-Kit-433 and I was lucky enough to have an experienced climber giving me instructions. But, reading through the book and *mastering *each technique before I moved on to the next one seemed to be the best approach for me.



Good looking model ... er a *kit* ... compliments on your _"*mastering *each technique"_ approach!


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 15, 2009)

rarefish383 said:


> ...
> I hope I don't PO any lawn men with what I say next but if so, Oh Well. If you say you can't find an experienced mentor, hog wash. *You can always find a tree guy that will give you yard work from his regular customers, If you give him tree work from your yard customers. *Often he'll let you do the contracting and give you his pric and let you add on a premium for yourself. Since it's your job you hang out and get some hands on experienc. You can start to run ropes and see how things are done. Learn. Will this help you on that big tree you just way under bid for tomorrow, nope. I've got more to say, but I'm late for Church, see ya, Joe.



Sounds like bartering for training - good idea! I suppose you could take a temporary job raking, or chipping or something so you could see a pro-climber at work - might even pick-up some pointers. Then, maybe, get a mentor that way. If you don't like his/her style of climbing - just move on.


ps: 
Speaking about a pro-climber; check out *Patrick Epps* in this Murphy4Trees video. Especially, his moves at 3:05 and 3:56 ... DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME ... be a good guy to meet, someday.


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## dundermifflin (Nov 15, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Good looking model ... er a *kit* ... compliments on your _"*mastering *each technique"_ approach!



"Mastering" was the wrong word to use....I meant to say "feeling comfortable" with a technique before moving to a new one, for example learning how to tie and use the blake's hitch before moving on to the french prusik.


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## Jgraham798 (Nov 16, 2009)

RacerX said:


> Professional instruction would be nice but you can learn on your own if you're so motivated.
> 
> Read the TCC several times, master the basic knots and hitches while your feet are on the ground, and learn all that you can from the experts here. Start low and slow. Good luck.




Currently, I'm just doing storm cleanups that the tree guys don't want and I'm doing it for the firewood only. I have 1 tree man that I work with on occassion, but I only haul off the wood for him. I don't get to see him doing the work because he only calls me when he's ready to cleanup. I'm constantly on the watch for trees that need work on them in my area and then I call him and let him know so he can make the customer contacts and possibly get the job/s.

I bought the Fundamentals of General Tree Work and The Tree Climber’s Companion, 2nd Ed and I read them constantly trying to learn as much as possible. I also like to read here because there's a lot of good info here as well. I'm looking to buying a climbing line and a saddle sometime in the future.

I've always been interested in the rope work and love to see experienced tree men work. Their skills are fascinating to me. I worked in a factory for over 20 years and did a lot of rigging and crane work so I'm familar with the dynamics of a swinging load, but I know it's a different animal in the trees.

I want to learn to climb more for self-satisfaction than anything else. I love anything tree or wood related. I get out on my days off and cut and split just for the fun of it. I'm looking to see if the firewood thing is something that I can do when I retire in the next few years to supplement my pension.

Thanks!
Jim


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## rarefish383 (Nov 16, 2009)

OK, I made it to Church on time, so I'm back. As I stated I still use an old saddle with no leg straps, they were uncommon when I started climbing. I'm at the end of my career and I'm not buying any new equipment. Get Leg Straps. I've been hanging upside down and slid right out of my saddle. The only thing that saved me was my feet were stiill against the tree and my knees were hyperextended and the saddle caught in the "V" of my knees. I used to use an old snap on my climbing line with no lock. I've had sticks flip the little latch open and drop one of my D rings and leave me hanging side ways. Use snaps with latches. I don't use snaps at all any more I just tie into my saddle with my climbing line. If I have to retie in I'll use the tail of my line to retie and then realease the first line. I still know climbers that will free climb up a tree with no safety or flip line and walk out on limbs without being tied in, don't do it, not for 2 feet. I don't trust the grip in my hands anymore so I'll wedge my fist in crotches to pull up or go down, and you can bet I'm always tied in.

Equipment safety has evolved alot since I got started, so maybe we were more awair of the safety short falls we worked with. Get the best equipment out there and be safe. Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce, good luck, Joe.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

rarefish383 said:


> OK, I made it to Church on time, so I'm back. As I stated I still use an old saddle with no leg straps, they were uncommon when I started climbing. *I'm at the end of my career and I'm not buying any new equipment.* Get Leg Straps. I've been hanging upside down and slid right out of my saddle. The only thing that saved me was my feet were stiill against the tree and my knees were hyperextended and the saddle caught in the "V" of my knees. I used to use an old snap on my climbing line with no lock. I've had sticks flip the little latch open and drop one of my D rings and leave me hanging side ways. Use snaps with latches. I don't use snaps at all any more I just tie into my saddle with my climbing line. If I have to retie in I'll use the tail of my line to retie and then realease the first line. I still know climbers that will free climb up a tree with no safety or flip line and walk out on limbs without being tied in, don't do it, not for 2 feet. I don't trust the grip in my hands anymore so I'll wedge my fist in crotches to pull up or go down, and you can bet I'm always tied in.
> 
> Equipment safety has evolved alot since I got started, so maybe we were more awair of the safety short falls we worked with. *Get the best equipment out there and be safe.* *Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce*, good luck, Joe.



_*"Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce" - Joe*_

GREAT LINE - tried to shoot you some rep but AS wouldn't let me 

BTW - Joe, take my word for it, you ain't old ... plenty of climbers on here older than you ... if you're still gonna climb, take your own advice: _*"Get the best equipment out there and be safe."*_

- Jack


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## outofmytree (Nov 16, 2009)

No worries SJ I got him for ya.

*Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce, good luck, Joe.*

That friends, is simple truth.


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## canopyboy (Nov 16, 2009)

Dang it all. The only thing I wanted to add was that this was the best quote I've read for awhile:

*...trees are tall and men don't bounce...*

But y'all beat me to it. At least I can try to throw some rep...


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## Greener (Nov 16, 2009)

rarefish383 said:


> OK, I made it to Church on time, so I'm back. As I stated I still use an old saddle with no leg straps, they were uncommon when I started climbing. I'm at the end of my career and I'm not buying any new equipment. Get Leg Straps. I've been hanging upside down and slid right out of my saddle. The only thing that saved me was my feet were stiill against the tree and my knees were hyperextended and the saddle caught in the "V" of my knees. I used to use an old snap on my climbing line with no lock. I've had sticks flip the little latch open and drop one of my D rings and leave me hanging side ways. Use snaps with latches. I don't use snaps at all any more I just tie into my saddle with my climbing line. If I have to retie in I'll use the tail of my line to retie and then realease the first line. I still know climbers that will free climb up a tree with no safety or flip line and walk out on limbs without being tied in, don't do it, not for 2 feet. I don't trust the grip in my hands anymore so I'll wedge my fist in crotches to pull up or go down, and you can bet I'm always tied in.
> 
> Equipment safety has evolved alot since I got started, so maybe we were more awair of the safety short falls we worked with. Get the best equipment out there and be safe. Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce, good luck, Joe.



Joe. I went with a Weaver saddle with leg straps. It is a basic model but I am a weekend warrior only. Thanks for sharing your experience, especially about the hazards faced when upside down. I have been a spike climber for years but am easing into ropes now. I used to be one of those guys you mentioned who free-hand it. Now, I secure with two lines at all times. With age comes awareness of mortality.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 16, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Excellent point ... my biggest fear, above ALL others, is being hit by _"a piece of timber in... motion on a rope"_
> 
> The physics of rigging is a lot more like rocket science than climbing!



What is real nice is getting caught in the bight with a 2500# log on the other end. It only happens once if your smart lol. Rigging rope is very detrimental to hands, fingers,legs or anything it come across lucky for me the only time was a hand and just enough to learn and learn well lol


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## ropensaddle (Nov 16, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> _*"Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce" - Joe*_
> 
> GREAT LINE - tried to shoot you some rep but AS wouldn't let me
> 
> ...



False they do bounce just don't recover lol


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> _*"Remember trees are tall and men don't bounce" - Joe*_
> 
> GREAT LINE - tried to shoot you some rep but AS wouldn't let me
> 
> ...





ropensaddle said:


> False they do bounce just don't recover lol



Well, yeah, they "bounce" ... 
"Depends on what you mean by ..." (Bill Clinton) 

*STILL, A GREAT LINE!!!*


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## MIspecial (Nov 18, 2009)

Got the book. Great info. Really answered alot of my questions. What would work best for the way that they are climbing now is the alternate lanyard technique. They are just using 1 lanyard, which is not safe when moving to another branch. Also having a climbing line would be safer yet. Slow and low, I go!


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## Job Corps Tree (Nov 18, 2009)

*New to Climbing- Questions*

Don't be afraid to ask if you find more, this site has 2000 or more years of experience Climbing. We have enough experience to cover most any question you may come up with! Let us know how you get on?


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