# Looking to start up a business



## Cbush314 (Jun 6, 2012)

Hey there,

I'm looking to start up a tree service. I was wondering if anyone with an established business could give me a few pointers on getting started. Any help would be very appreciated.


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## tree MDS (Jun 6, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I'm looking to start up a tree service. I was wondering if anyone with an established business could give me a few pointers on getting started. Any help would be very appreciated.



Nope, can't think of any pointers... best of luck though!!


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## Raintree (Jun 6, 2012)

What is your experience in the tree service industry?


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## cfield (Jun 6, 2012)

Do it slowly if you can. Start out part time.Weekends, and nights. Buy everything you need, saws,ropes,climbing&rigging gear. Get doubles if possible. Take your time and build it right and legal. Register your business with the state and IRS, get all the insurance you need. The better foundation you build now the better your business will run in the future. Oh yeah and ADVERTISE, get your name out there until you've done enough work to start getting referrals. Look professional and act professional, people like that. Take your time and do it right the first time. You're not going to get rich but you can make a decent living. Good luck.


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## husabud (Jun 6, 2012)

Go spend one to two hundred grand on all the equipment you need then get some trees to take down or just wait for a good storm.:msp_tongue:


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## Cbush314 (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks, I appreciate your serious advice. I am currently cutting up down trees to be sold as bonfire wood as well as some oak that I am splitting to sell for fire wood. I think I am going to start out doing this on the side and building my way up instead of getting myselft into debt and twiddle my fingers looking for work. what kind of licenses are there as well as insureance?



cfield said:


> Do it slowly if you can. Start out part time.Weekends, and nights. Buy everything you need, saws,ropes,climbing&rigging gear. Get doubles if possible. Take your time and build it right and legal. Register your business with the state and IRS, get all the insurance you need. The better foundation you build now the better your business will run in the future. Oh yeah and ADVERTISE, get your name out there until you've done enough work to start getting referrals. Look professional and act professional, people like that. Take your time and do it right the first time. You're not going to get rich but you can make a decent living. Good luck.


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## WamsleyH (Jun 6, 2012)

The better foundation you build now the better your business will run in the future


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## no tree to big (Jun 6, 2012)

do you know how to climb?
do you know how to cut down a tree?
can you do them both at once?


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## Cbush314 (Jun 6, 2012)

I have cut down a hand full of trees, but I really enjoy it and would like to do it more. I have a few friends who are very experienced and often drop trees for family and friends so I have someone to help me. But as for climbing, I havent a clue... This is obviously something that I will need to learn how to do.


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Jun 6, 2012)

Biggest thing is the right insurance coverage and being able to sell the fact that you are fully insured properly. I also suggest if you dont have any real experince that may want to take a course in it. We just had a micro burst here in Finger Lakes and lots of wannabes got hurt. I've been climbing ten years with no course but I watched many climbers since nine years old. I have been running my company for last four years. Refferals are a great way to get work, flyers, door to door ( sucks but works if your desprate or trying to drum up more work while your in a good community). But the biggest thing is be safe!


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## treebilly (Jun 6, 2012)

Learn how to do the job right. Getting lucky on a few take downs doesn't make you a "tree man". Luck runs out sooner or later. Don't be afraid to say no to a job if you're uncomfotable with it. There is a reason that only a few do the nasty jobs.


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 7, 2012)

As a 19 year old college student you need to realize that this is not a business that you get into without learning and experience. The best advice I can give you is to work for a PROFESSIONAL tree company (not your friends who are "very experienced") for a few years to learn how to do things the right way. If I was you I sure as hell would want to, not go into something as dangerious as this with no experience. Start out as a groundie and if you are good you'll learn how to climb. There are excellent courses that you can take but there is no substitute for experience.


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## TimberMcPherson (Jun 7, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> As a 19 year old college student you need to realize that this is not a business that you get into without learning and experience. The best advice I can give you is to work for a PROFESSIONAL tree company (not your friends who are "very experienced") for a few years to learn how to do things the right way. If I was you I sure as hell would want to, not go into something as dangerious as this with no experience. Start out as a groundie and if you are good you'll learn how to climb. There are excellent courses that you can take but there is no substitute for experience.



This is great advice, learning from your mistakes is fine if your painting a fence, but in this game the mistakes you make are all to often career ending, and sometimes, life taking. You will make alot more money and run a better operation if you know what you doing and not just basically guessing as you are now.


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## FLtreeGuyVHTC (Jun 7, 2012)

treebilly said:


> There is a reason that only a few do the nasty jobs.




So very true.... I'm the local they call when the other companys won't do it.... We call them "man killers" with good reason.


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## husabud (Jun 7, 2012)

Actually Cbush, I completely concur with Grouchy Old Man. If you want to start a professional tree service then get to school for Business and get a job with a large, although not ROW, tree company on the side. Nothing replaces experience in this profession! As many Oaks or pines or maples that you may cut every tree acts differently. Experience is the only savior. Once you know how to run a business and you know your shiite, you will probably change your mind. In the men time be safe and save your pennies for school.


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## Bermie (Jun 7, 2012)

Aw c'mon, is this for real?

I own a pair of pliers, I want to be an electrician, does anybody have any advice?

Tell me you love trees, you are fascinated by their stucture and beauty, you have been reading every book you can find of tree care, ID, pest and disease and climbing and knots. You've been watching professionals at work and are really interested in how they do it, and make it look easy...

THEN come back and ask for some advice.


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## MackenzieTree (Jun 7, 2012)

*dont start a business*



Cbush314 said:


> I have cut down a hand full of trees, but I really enjoy it and would like to do it more. I have a few friends who are very experienced and often drop trees for family and friends so I have someone to help me. But as for climbing, I havent a clue... This is obviously something that I will need to learn how to do.



hey i wouldnt start a business until u learn how to climb, trust your ropes and are somewhat confident up in the tree good luck to you stay safe


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 7, 2012)

This type of topic is posted enough to where I wont answer because it won't be nice.
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jun 7, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> This type of topic is posted enough to where I wont answer because it won't be nice.
> Jeff



Most of the time this sort of thread is a "set up". I am not even falling for it.


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## treeman75 (Jun 7, 2012)

I cant believe its lasted this long with out getting out of controll.


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## treeman75 (Jun 7, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> This type of topic is posted enough to where I wont answer because it won't be nice.
> Jeff



Come on Jeff give him some pointers you know you want too!


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## tree md (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm not one to shoot down a 19 year old's dreams. It's a good thing to have dreams and goals. But nothing is easy in this life. To be a professional at anything and have a profitable business takes a lot of work, dedication and sacrifice. Unless you want to be know as the local hack, you better put some time in learning how to do the work at a professional level. That takes a few years of apprenticeship working under a competent climber/arborist, riding around with the owner learning how to sell and bid jobs, how to advertise, how to manage a crew, how to do the work efficiently and be profitable. It doesn't happen overnight. Before I ever went out on my own I was doing the sales and bidding, climbing and running the whole job from start to finish for someone else.


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## treeman75 (Jun 7, 2012)

tree md said:


> I'm not one to shoot down a 19 year old's dreams. It's a good thing to have dreams and goals. But nothing is easy in this life. To be a professional at anything and have a profitable business takes a lot of work, dedication and sacrifice. Unless you want to be know as the local hack, you better put some time in learning how to do the work at a professional level. That takes a few years of apprenticeship working under a competent climber/arborist, riding around with the owner learning how to sell and bid jobs, how to advertise, how to manage a crew, how to do the work efficiently and be profitable. It doesn't happen overnight. Before I ever went out on my own I was doing the sales and bidding, climbing and running the whole job from start to finish for someone else.



Thats the ideal way to get in the bussiness.


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## arborealbuffoon (Jun 7, 2012)

Good luck with that. 

I'll magically reappear and ask you how it went on the day you turn 50.


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## sgreanbeans (Jun 8, 2012)

I agree with Jeffrey and Larry, go for it kid, just learn the right way from a pro, school or in the field, from a pro. They are not hard to find. You can search this topic and you will see that it has been discussed, in depth, many many times. Lots of helpful info. First thing you need to do is figure out if you really want to do this, once your in, its life. You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

Had to post, 3 Iowa guys in a row, it is epic


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## RDAA (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm in the similar stiuation as this guy. I have had a tree service on the side for a couple of years now and I have alot of respect for the pros that do this for a living. The risks day in and day out with your health, life, and other peoples property. I would go for it and quit the day job but i couldnt imagine doing this for another twenty five years my body would be shot! Not to mention the costs of running a legit business with equipment and personell is crazy with all of the maintenence, insurance, and equipment costs. The more overhead i take on to be more efficent the more I have to work to make the same amount of money. Im lucky the market is good around here. There is a very well run tree service about thiry miles away from town that is ISA certified and they do an good job. My local competition just likes to flush cut and lions tail everything, drive his skid and bucket truck all over your yard, never rigs anything down, and all he cares about is getting in getting out, and most of all getting your money. (sorry about the rant) I have so much work lined up and not enough time to do it, and im not trying to be arrogant. I make way more money after work then at work but my neck is stuck out alot. I love this line of work. I admit I started as a bucket queen, but thanks to this website I have gotten into climbing and love it! With all of these factors its a really hard decison the leave the day job.


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 8, 2012)

RDAA said:


> I'm in the similar stiuation as this guy. I have had a tree service on the side for a couple of years now and I have alot of respect for the pros that do this for a living. The risks day in and day out with your health, life, and other peoples property. I would go for it and quit the day job but i couldnt imagine doing this for another twenty five years my body would be shot! Not to mention the costs of running a legit business with equipment and personell is crazy with all of the maintenence, insurance, and equipment costs. The more overhead i take on to be more efficent the more I have to work to make the same amount of money. Im lucky the market is good around here. There is a very well run tree service about thiry miles away from town that is ISA certified and they do an good job. My local competition just likes to flush cut and lions tail everything, drive his skid and bucket truck all over your yard, never rigs anything down, and all he cares about is getting in getting out, and most of all getting your money. (sorry about the rant) I have so much work lined up and not enough time to do it, and im not trying to be arrogant. I make way more money after work then at work but my neck is stuck out alot. I love this line of work. I admit I started as a bucket queen, but thanks to this website I have gotten into climbing and love it! With all of these factors its a really hard decison the leave the day job.




Nothing wrong with bucket trucks its a nice option to have, if im out in the open and can reach the tree i will just use the bucket its faster and i don't have to turn any jobs down because of storm damaged or rotted trees that weren't safe to climb.


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## Cbush314 (Jun 8, 2012)

Hey Bermie, go #### yourself. You don't need to be an #######. What makes you feel the need to be a douche. I should be able to answer on honest question without getting some #### head response. What are you, 10 years old? 



Bermie said:


> Aw c'mon, is this for real?
> 
> I own a pair of pliers, I want to be an electrician, does anybody have any advice?
> 
> ...


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 8, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> I have cut down a hand full of trees, but I really enjoy it and would like to do it more. I have a few ,This is obviously something that I will need to learn how to do.



DUH! Seriously!!!! This is still going on? 
Jeff :msp_confused:


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 8, 2012)

RDAA said:


> I'm in the similar stiuation as this guy. With all of these factors its a really hard decison the leave the day job.



Are you a cert. climber or cert. arborist?
Just asking.
Jeff :bang:


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## ropensaddle (Jun 8, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> Hey Bermie, go #### yourself. You don't need to be an #######. What makes you feel the need to be a douche. I should be able to answer on honest question without getting some #### head response. What are you, 10 years old?



Well: Bermie is actually trying to give you good advice and she is a well accomplished arborist. Obviously she got your dander up but the truth is we don't need uninformed, untrained, unqualified tree services there is already too many. Do yourself a favor and get a job doing it with a certified arborist to see if you have what it takes.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 8, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Well: Bermie is actually trying to give you good advice and she is a well accomplished arborist. Obviously she got your dander up but the truth is we don't need uninformed, untrained, unqualified tree services there is already too many. Do yourself a favor and get a job doing it with a certified arborist to see if you have what it takes.



Dang Rope!, They won't let me rep you!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Jun 8, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Dang Rope!, They won't let me rep you!
> Jeff



Lmao its all good m8 I quit worry about that many moons ago


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 8, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmao its all good m8 I quit worry about that many moons ago


Jeff


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## VA-Sawyer (Jun 8, 2012)

I got him for you, Jeff.

Cbush314,

You need to learn a whole lot before you start bashing anybody here on AS. First off, this should be in the 101 section. Maybe you just don't read so well. If that is the case, you will really have a poor chance of surviving the learning curve. There really isn't any difference between your first post and her post, except she knew just how clueless hers was. If you were offended by her reply, well, that is pretty much how most of us felt about your post. Like Rope said, she runs a very good tree service in Bermuda and is one of those ' go to' climbers that can do the tough jobs nobody else wants. She is one of the few members here, that I read carefully, because SHE KNOWS what she is talking about. She is also one the few that actually is certified as an instructor on chainsaws.

As for your origional question....... try getting 60' up in a 75' tree with the wind blowing and rocking the tree around, now try trimming a few limbs with a handsaw and practice tying a line around the tree using different knots each time, and tying them CORRECTLY! When you can do that without your heart pounding in your chest, then you might be ready to LEARN how to climb. Let me know IF you get to that point.
Rick


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## sgreanbeans (Jun 9, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Well: Bermie is actually trying to give you good advice and she is a well accomplished arborist. Obviously she got your dander up but the truth is we don't need uninformed, untrained, unqualified tree services there is already too many. Do yourself a favor and get a job doing it with a certified arborist to see if you have what it takes.



What he said, so be nice Cbush. Scratch all the first things that you were told, after that blow up, the first thing you need to do is get thicker skin, if Bermie, as sweet as she is, got under your skin with that!, then you will have a long road ahead of you, run while you can.


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## no tree to big (Jun 9, 2012)

if you cant handle that little bit of sarcasm over the internet how are you going to make it in tree work in real life (a lot of tree guys are not nice people when the job is rollin), whether it is a climber, owner, experienced ground man or whatever. 

this reminds me of a time one of the morons I work with said "look at that big dead branch over the street, it must have been dead for a long time it doesn't even have any bark left on it." (12-14" limb no bark and wood was sun bleached out) so I replied back wow you should be certified arborist. and he started #####ing and crying for 10 minutes how I always have a smart ass remark for anything he has to say... well you say something stupid I'm replying back with stupid get used to it!


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## Incomplete (Jun 9, 2012)

RDAA said:


> . I love this line of work. I admit I started as a bucket queen, but thanks to this website I have gotten into climbing and love it! With all of these factors its a really hard decison the leave the day job.



if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in you life


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## echo271 (Jun 9, 2012)

I was taught something when I wAs a child....
Open mouth insert foot


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 9, 2012)

I was always told never let your mouth write a check your a## can't cash.


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## swyman (Jun 9, 2012)

Time to pay my .05. "should I start a tree business" was my post about a year and a half ago. I went through the same thing you are, went into it feeling confident and then some similar responses and I to got pissed off and flew off the deepend for a few pages.....well read about it if you want. I can tell you from my experience, I had enough cash to buy a 60' truck, and a bandit 250xp. I already had saws, bobcat, gooseneck trailer and a 1 ton truck. Not that that makes me any better a Treeman but I am pretty efficient. The best thing I have is a 20 year retired tree care owner that goes with me on almost every job, point being these folks are right nothing can replace experience in this industry. Without that guy showing me how to study a tree, proper equipment placement, how to cut, where to cut, how to rig..yada yada yada, would have made this extremely difficult (and it still is not easy by any means). If you can, follow the advice from the jedi masters young Luke. You're age is perfect, if you can swing it work for someone and you will learn the ins and outs on their dime. It has been a very expensive endeavor, equipment up keep is not cheap or easy and I have decent stuff and it's paid for. Just give it a couple years man, I know its hard but used equipment is higher than hell right now not that you need a lot to start but efficiency is the key. I don't want to keep rambling and these guys I have found have been right on weather I liked what they had to.say or not. If you want to hear more pm me and I could give you my number, not going to bore everyone any longer. Be safe, Shane


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## bull2five (Jun 12, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> Hey there,
> 
> I'm looking to start up a tree service. I was wondering if anyone with an established business could give me a few pointers on getting started. Any help would be very appreciated.



Did you start that business yet? 
If so, is it LLC, S corporation or C corporation?

I'm trying to register a new business and would like to know what kind of business some of you other guys picked to start your business and why you picked LLC, S corporation or C corporation?

Thanks for your help in advance


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 12, 2012)

Why not a sole propreitor until you have something worth incorporating for? I'll never understand why somebody just starting out would structure a business as a LLC or S corp right off the bat. And you certainly don't want a C corp because of the way it and you are taxed on the same money.


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## bull2five (Jun 12, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> Why not a sole propreitor until you have something worth incorporating for? I'll never understand why somebody just starting out would structure a business as a LLC or S corp right off the bat. And you certainly don't want a C corp because of the way it and you are taxed on the same money.



Personal liability.


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## arborealbuffoon (Jun 12, 2012)

Start a tree trimming concern if you wish. I don't want to even hear about it when you're finally done.

If I won millions of dollars tax free right now, the LAST thing I would ever put a dime into would be a tree service.

Don't ask me why I say this. Have a better life!


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 12, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Personal liability.



That's often misunderstood. I can tell you that all your suppliers are going to want a personal guarantee. You will be personally responsible for payroll and sales taxes. Matter of fact anybody that you give signatory authority to for your bank accounts can be held personally responsible even if they are only employees. If somebody gets hurt and you get sued the "corporate veil" will not protect you either especially if there is neglegence.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 12, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> That's often misunderstood. I can tell you that all your suppliers are going to want a personal guarantee. You will be personally responsible for payroll and sales taxes. Matter of fact anybody that you give signatory authority to for your bank accounts can be held personally responsible even if they are only employees. If somebody gets hurt and you get sued the "corporate veil" will not protect you either especially if there is neglegence.



Can you cite? My attorney advises me otherwise, and he only practices law, thats his sole focus. Been doing do for over 20 yrs. My corporation is responsible for tax and payroll. I also am an employee. I assure you my accountant and attorney, who both can sign on my acct, couldn't be held responsible, unless they themselves messed up.

Jeff


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 13, 2012)

> I assure you my accountant and attorney, who both can sign on my acct, couldn't be held responsible, unless they themselves messed up.



Just ask my wife and me. She was the office manager and signed the checks for her previous husband's business. He dies leaving unpaid witholding, sales and corporation taxes. The business had little assets and they had little themselves though thank God he did have a life insurance policy where she was the beneficiary. The feds got her first making her pay over 60K. Then she married me and 10 years later the state of NY made (now us) pay over 15K. They started to garnish her pay. She was told by the IRS, the state and our accountant that the reason she could be held personally responsible was because she had signatory authority on the company accounts and should have seen to it that the taxes were paid. Witholding and sales tax is a fiduciary responsibility placed on the business principles, controller or other persons controlling the money not the corporation. Since sales tax is collected from the customers and witholding is deducted from the employees pay there should be no excuse that the money is not there. So if there is no money or the taxes weren't paid you are right, somebody messed up.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 13, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> Just ask my wife and me. She was the office manager and signed the checks for her previous husband's business. He dies leaving unpaid witholding, sales and corporation taxes. The business had little assets and they had little themselves though thank God he did have a life insurance policy where she was the beneficiary. The feds got her first making her pay over 60K. Then she married me and 10 years later the state of NY made (now us) pay over 15K. They started to garnish her pay. She was told by the IRS, the state and our accountant that the reason she could be held personally responsible was because she had signatory authority on the company accounts and should have seen to it that the taxes were paid. Witholding and sales tax is a fiduciary responsibility placed on the business principles, controller or other persons controlling the money not the corporation. Since sales tax is collected from the customers and witholding is deducted from the employees pay there should be no excuse that the money is not there. So if there is no money or the taxes weren't paid you are right, somebody messed up.



Not knowing all the circumstances, off the top of my head, I'd say the business was incorrectly set up. Why don't they go after employees who can sign on these major corporations then? I'm sticking with unique circumstances in your case, perhaps because they were married? And now you two are married? I've never hear of that, and they guy who gets paid to protect me, says it won't happen to me. I feel bad for you, however, there are a million unpopular comments I could make, but won't.

Hope it all works out for you.

Jeff


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## bull2five (Jun 13, 2012)

I have potential customers that want me to remove trees for them but want me to be licensed and insured. Can you do both as sole proprietor?
I just want to be licensed and insured to help get more work and have a better piece of mind.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 13, 2012)

bull2five said:


> I have potential customers that want me to remove trees for them but want me to be licensed and insured. Can you do both as sole proprietor?
> I just want to be licensed and insured to help get more work and have a better piece of mind.



By asking this, you are implying you aren't now. How long have you been working without?


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 13, 2012)

Jeff, it was an S corp. I'm just saying that corporations don't provide the protection that people think. Use them for tax advantages or for investors, partners etc but if you screw up there are plenty of greedy lawyers out there that know how to get money from you after they get done with your insurance and company assets. Think about one of those instances where a boom or bucket failed. Say the worker was 30 years old and now he has to spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair and needs constant care. He can no longer support his family. It was your responsibility as the business owner to see to it that the truck was properly maintained and inspected. After your insurance pays to the limit of coverage what do you think is going to happen?



> I have potential customers that want me to remove trees for them but want me to be licensed and insured. Can you do both as sole proprietor?
> I just want to be licensed and insured to help get more work and have a better piece of mind. .


Absolutely. Matter of fact you shouldn't be in business without being insured and having whatever licenses your are required to have.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 13, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> Jeff, it was an S corp. I'm just saying that corporations don't provide the protection that people think. Use them for tax advantages or for investors, partners etc but if you screw up there are plenty of greedy lawyers out there that know how to get money from you after they get done with your insurance and company assets. Think about one of those instances where a boom or bucket failed. Say the worker was 30 years old and now he has to spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair and needs constant care. He can no longer support his family. It was your responsibility as the business owner to see to it that the truck was properly maintained and inspected. After your insurance pays to the limit of coverage what do you think is going to happen?
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Matter of fact you shouldn't be in business without being insured and having whatever licenses your are required to have.



That's one reason I dont have a boom truck. My insurance won't cover it unless I can prove inspections. Also, there has to be some risk a person 30 feet up in a boom takes. It's not always someone else's financial responsibility when an accident occurs. After my insurance pays the limit, they will have to come after my corporations assets. Which are close to zero. Besides, if worst case happened, and I really wanted to avoid it, I could file bankruptcy on the corp, and tomorrow open a new one. Same equipment, as that's under a separate leasing company.

Jeff


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## beastmaster (Jun 13, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> Hey Bermie, go #### yourself. You don't need to be an #######. What makes you feel the need to be a douche. I should be able to answer on honest question without getting some #### head response. What are you, 10 years old?



I think Bermie hit the nail on the head. Maybe you should do some self reflection, grow some , and listen to those that have seceded at what you only wish for. I hope you are just trolling, otherwise your about the dumbest MF I've seen on this board.


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 13, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> That's one reason I dont have a boom truck. My insurance won't cover it unless I can prove inspections. Also, there has to be some risk a person 30 feet up in a boom takes. It's not always someone else's financial responsibility when an accident occurs. After my insurance pays the limit, they will have to come after my corporations assets. Which are close to zero. Besides, if worst case happened, and I really wanted to avoid it, I could file bankruptcy on the corp, and tomorrow open a new one. Same equipment, as that's under a separate leasing company.
> 
> Jeff



Unfortunately that is the way you have to protect yourself these days. If negligence is proven, and you can bet some shyster lawyer will be all over that even if you did everything right, they will go after you after they clean out your company. I know people who have nothing in their name (no house, bank accounts, vehicles etc) just for that reason.


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## bull2five (Jun 13, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> By asking this, you are implying you aren't now. How long have you been working without?



Are you OSHA?:msp_sneaky:

I've been doing it sparingly on and off for 10 years but only for family, friends and few neighbors. Most of the time for free. The firm that I work for is extremely slow and so I wanted to look into starting a business on the weekends to help out financially and even full time if I enjoy it as much as I think that I do.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 13, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Are you OSHA?:msp_sneaky:
> 
> I've been doing it sparingly on and off for 10 years but only for family, friends and few neighbors. Most of the time for free. The firm that I work for is extremely slow and so I wanted to look into starting a business on the weekends to help out financially and even full time if I enjoy it as much as I think that I do.



Ah, So you are a 'Hack'!
Oh well, at least you admit it.
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jun 13, 2012)

no tree to big said:


> do you know how to climb?
> do you know how to cut down a tree?
> can you do them both at once?



don't care who you are, that's funny.


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## treemandan (Jun 13, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> This type of topic is posted enough to where I wont answer because it won't be nice.
> Jeff



Nice is fer suckers, ass kissers and telemarketers.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 13, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Nice is fer suckers, ass kissers and telemarketers.



ARE YOU SAYING I AM NOT NICE, #######!?
Jeff :msp_sneaky:


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## treemandan (Jun 13, 2012)

Cbush314 said:


> Hey Bermie, go #### yourself. You don't need to be an #######. What makes you feel the need to be a douche. I should be able to answer on honest question without getting some #### head response. What are you, 10 years old?



Come on dude, there is no crying in tree work. There, I just gave you a "pointer". Are you happy now?

Man, what Bermie said really wasn't very insulting at all... well maybe if you have guilty conscience or something.

This is exactly what they told me on my first day, they said " don't cut yer #### off with that and hurry the #### up!" See, more pointers.:msp_sleep:


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## treemandan (Jun 13, 2012)

tree MDS said:


> Nope, can't think of any pointers... best of luck though!!



Liar! I am sure you have a wealth of pertainent information you could lay on.


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## bull2five (Jun 14, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Ah, So you are a 'Hack'!
> Oh well, at least you admit it.
> Jeff



Weren't we all at one time? :tongue2:


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## tree MDS (Jun 14, 2012)

treemandan said:


> Liar! I am sure you have a wealth of pertainent information you could lay on.



Nah, I'm just a fly by night hacker!! Hahaha.

In all seriousness, danno, I think I'm a lot like you, in the fact that all I ever really wanted to do was climb some ####ing trees... I guess I got a little greedy at some point and decided that if I was gonna be doing everything anyway, I might as well make ALL the money. But I sure do love seeing beautiful cuts come off. That's the best of it all, really, when all the BS is over, you're tied in, rigging line set, etc. Then the maddness begins...and I can finally be in my element (half insane and damn ####ing good)!! :msp_w00t:


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 14, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Weren't we all at one time? :tongue2:



I might've been young and inexperienced at one time but i was never a hack because i had the proper training and worked close with people with a lot of experience so i wouldn't say i was ever a self taught hack.


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## bull2five (Jun 14, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> I might've been young and inexperienced at one time but i was never a hack because i had the proper training and worked close with people with a lot of experience so i wouldn't say i was ever a self taught hack.



Fair enough.

Not trying to be an arse here but if your self taught that means your a hack?
Can you list the training you have had so that I can look into getting the same training since I hate being called a "Hack"? And what exactly is a hack, would that be a guy that just hacks at a tree to get it on the ground or trimmed? 
I'm always willing to better myself as i'm sure most of us are always learning.


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## Grouchy old man (Jun 14, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Can you list the training you have had so that I can look into getting the same training since I hate being called a "Hack"? And what exactly is a hack, would that be a guy that just hacks at a tree to get it on the ground or trimmed?
> I'm always willing to better myself as i'm sure most of us are always learning.



Read the other topic below that you posted in about starting a business from the beginning. I think I and others gave good advice there about experience and training.

A hack is someone who does something but is too ignorant to understand why they have no business doing it.


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## bull2five (Jun 14, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> Read the other topic below that you posted in about starting a business from the beginning. I think I and others gave good advice there about experience and training.
> 
> A hack is someone who does something but is too ignorant to understand why they have no business doing it.



Thanks for the solid advice on talking to an accountant about my financial situation and protecting my assets and talking to an attorney about what I will be required to do in order to start a business in the thread I started http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/201939.htm

_"A hack is someone who does something but is too ignorant to understand why they have no business doing it."_
Sounds like I'm safe in that department but actually don't mind being called a Master Hacker on this board if that suites you and others.

After searching “starting a business” and coming upon this thread, I was more interested in knowing if the OP had started his own business and how he registered his business. Now that I know I’m a so called “Hack” just like the OP, I will take your advice again and reread this thread from the beginning.


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## Incomplete (Jun 14, 2012)

Grouchy old man said:


> A hack is someone who does something but is too ignorant to understand why ...



Boom! 

I've met some hacks in my field who have been so for 30 years. AND they had training. And I've met some true geniuses who took a little from each teacher, threw away ninety percent of the carp they were taught and came up with their own methodology. What it boils down to is Talent, Ability, Capability, Consistency, and a Never Ending Ability to Learn: learn from the older experienced guys, and learn from the younger raw talent. The moment we think we know it all, we're dead


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 14, 2012)

Incomplete said:


> Boom!
> 
> I've met some hacks in my field who have been so for 30 years. AND they had training. And I've met some true geniuses who took a little from each teacher, threw away ninety percent of the carp they were taught and came up with their own methodology. What it boils down to is Talent, Ability, Capability, Consistency, and a Never Ending Ability to Learn: learn from the older experienced guys, and learn from the younger raw talent. The moment we think we know it all, we're dead



Almost 15 year experience a i still learn new stuff i'm all ears if someone has a new idea or some pointers i'll listen.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 14, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Weren't we all at one time? :tongue2:



NO! Some of us actually got it right from the start! 
Dumb -Butt!
Jeff


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 14, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> NO! Some of us actually got it right from the start!
> Dumb -Butt!
> Jeff



Repped you for that.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 14, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Thanks for the solid advice on talking to an accountant about my financial situation and protecting my assets and talking to an attorney about what I will be required to do in order to start a business in the thread I started http://www.arboristsite.com/arborist-101/201939.htm
> 
> _"A hack is someone who does something but is too ignorant to understand why they have no business doing it."_
> Sounds like I'm safe in that department but actually don't mind being called a Master Hacker on this board if that suites you and others.
> ...



Did you read this?
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 14, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Repped you for that.



I gotta spread it around. I'll get ya back!
Jeff


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 14, 2012)

I did. Scared me a little. Of course, I would never work without insurance. That's kinda crazy...

I'm gonna start signing my posts, "the younger, prettier Jeff"

Lol so people aren't confused.

Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 14, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I did. Scared me a little. Of course, I would never work without insurance. That's kinda crazy...
> 
> I'm gonna start signing my posts, "the younger, prettier Jeff"
> 
> ...



Now they will know I am the ugly one!. Arg!!
Jeff :msp_sneaky:


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 14, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Now they will know I am the ugly one!. Arg!!
> Jeff :msp_sneaky:



Pretty boys don't belong here or in a tree you're alright.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 14, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Now they will know I am the ugly one!. Arg!!
> Jeff :msp_sneaky:



Jeffy Jeffy Jeffy...everyone already knew.

Lol. Jk


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Jeffy Jeffy Jeffy...everyone already knew.
> 
> Lol. Jk



 ,Ah!
Jeff
I am up too late!
She will be home soon!
Gotta go!
Jeff


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## bull2five (Jun 15, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> NO! Some of us actually got it right from the start!
> Dumb -Butt!
> Jeff



Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack? 

Who is to say that you're still not a hack? As the poster above mentioned having experience does not make you an expert especially if you learned from someone who might have been a hack themselves but you viewed them differently because you truly didn’t know the difference yourself. Does a piece of paper mean that you are truly better than someone else or is there a chance that you can still be a Dumb-Butt with that piece of paper? Don’t take this as being directed at you which I know you will since your emoticon indicated but more as food for thought. Owning or working for a company that has two offices seems to indicate your doing something right. 
Experience IMO is very important as long as you learn from your experience. It should not matter if you’re learning from a mentor or from a book/ videos and using what you learned out in the field while being successful and safe. 
Not sure why you feel like you have to direct insults at me unless it truly makes you feel better picking on a hack. I came here looking for advice and I appreciate any honest advice that was given by others. I actually read what you wrote even if it wasn’t useful to this topic.


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 15, 2012)

opcorn: stay tuned folks.....


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 15, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack?
> 
> Who is to say that you're still not a hack? As the poster above mentioned having experience does not make you an expert especially if you learned from someone who might have been a hack themselves but you viewed them differently because you truly didn’t know the difference yourself. Does a piece of paper mean that you are truly better than someone else or is there a chance that you can still be a Dumb-Butt with that piece of paper? Don’t take this as being directed at you which I know you will since your emoticon indicated but more as food for thought. Owning or working for a company that has two offices seems to indicate your doing something right.
> Experience IMO is very important as long as you learn from your experience. It should not matter if you’re learning from a mentor or from a book/ videos and using what you learned out in the field while being successful and safe.
> Not sure why you feel like you have to direct insults at me unless it truly makes you feel better picking on a hack. I came here looking for advice and I appreciate any honest advice that was given by others. I actually read what you wrote even if it wasn’t useful to this topic.



Yes learning from your experience is a good thing maybe if you're painting or building a deck, but you don't want to learn from mistakes by killing someones tree because of a bad prune job or dropping a branch through someones roof or even worse doing something wrong tying in and falling 100ft to your death, this is why its important to know what your doing BEFORE you get in a tree, mistakes in a tree are too costly to learn from.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 15, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack?
> 
> Who is to say that you're still not a hack? As the poster above mentioned having experience does not make you an expert especially if you learned from someone who might have been a hack themselves but you viewed them differently because you truly didn’t know the difference yourself. Does a piece of paper mean that you are truly better than someone else or is there a chance that you can still be a Dumb-Butt with that piece of paper? Don’t take this as being directed at you which I know you will since your emoticon indicated but more as food for thought. Owning or working for a company that has two offices seems to indicate your doing something right.
> Experience IMO is very important as long as you learn from your experience. It should not matter if you’re learning from a mentor or from a book/ videos and using what you learned out in the field while being successful and safe.
> Not sure why you feel like you have to direct insults at me unless it truly makes you feel better picking on a hack. I came here looking for advice and I appreciate any honest advice that was given by others. I actually read what you wrote even if it wasn’t useful to this topic.


Ahh ok so I want to be a dentist can I practice on you? I mean I will learn as I go right and I promise I will have a nice smile


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## husabud (Jun 15, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack?
> 
> Who is to say that you're still not a hack? As the poster above mentioned having experience does not make you an expert especially if you learned from someone who might have been a hack themselves but you viewed them differently because you truly didn’t know the difference yourself. Does a piece of paper mean that you are truly better than someone else or is there a chance that you can still be a Dumb-Butt with that piece of paper? Don’t take this as being directed at you which I know you will since your emoticon indicated but more as food for thought. Owning or working for a company that has two offices seems to indicate your doing something right.
> Experience IMO is very important as long as you learn from your experience. It should not matter if you’re learning from a mentor or from a book/ videos and using what you learned out in the field while being successful and safe.
> Not sure why you feel like you have to direct insults at me unless it truly makes you feel better picking on a hack. I came here looking for advice and I appreciate any honest advice that was given by others. I actually read what you wrote even if it wasn’t useful to this topic.



Good luck with this!  Take it easy on him Jeff, he's in the wrong thread as it is.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2012)

husabud said:


> Good luck with this! Take it easy on him Jeff, he's in the wrong thread as it is.



Thank you hus, Love your thread but, yeah , I am a ####.
I will play nice.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack?
> 
> Who is to say that you're still not a hack? As the poster above mentioned having experience does not make you an expert especially if you learned from someone who might have been a hack themselves but you viewed them differently because you truly didn’t know the difference yourself. Does a piece of paper mean that you are truly better than someone else or is there a chance that you can still be a Dumb-Butt with that piece of paper? Don’t take this as being directed at you which I know you will since your emoticon indicated but more as food for thought. Owning or working for a company that has two offices seems to indicate your doing something right.
> Experience IMO is very important as long as you learn from your experience. It should not matter if you’re learning from a mentor or from a book/ videos and using what you learned out in the field while being successful and safe.
> Not sure why you feel like you have to direct insults at me unless it truly makes you feel better picking on a hack. I came here looking for advice and I appreciate any honest advice that was given by others. I actually read what you wrote even if it wasn’t useful to this topic.



You sir are an Idiot!
Google me,Dope. 
I am not a hack!
You will never climb what I have climbed, 
Check me out Dumb a s s, 
There is only one Jeffrey Lovstrom in the whole wide world.
Dope'
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2012)

bull2five said:


> Got it right from the start? When you first started out you never did a side job on your own without supervision from your teacher or mentor? And if you did you were a hack?
> Who is to say that you're still not a hack?



This post shows how dumb you are!
Really!
Jeff


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## bull2five (Jun 17, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> Yes learning from your experience is a good thing maybe if you're painting or building a deck, but you don't want to learn from mistakes by killing someones tree because of a bad prune job or dropping a branch through someones roof or even worse doing something wrong tying in and falling 100ft to your death, this is why its important to know what your doing BEFORE you get in a tree, mistakes in a tree are too costly to learn from.



Building a deck was not a good example for you to use since decks can kill someone if not many more people. Deck can be many feet above grade depending on how many stories a home has. People have BBQ’s and gatherings on decks which means these decks have to carry great loads. If proper fastners are not used…I think you get the point. 

I agree with you on pruning trees and will not take on that kind of job.

Dropping a branch through someones roof? I guess accidents happen but that’s what insurance is for.

Doing something wrong tying in and falling 100ft to your death? Glad I purchsed a lift.

Its important to know what your doing BEFORE you get in a tree, mistakes in a tree are too costly to learn from. I agree with you 100%

Thanks for giving advice without using names.


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## bull2five (Jun 17, 2012)

ropensaddle said:


> Ahh ok so I want to be a dentist can I practice on you? I mean I will learn as I go right and I promise I will have a nice smile



Horrible analogy but quite funny. 
Yes you can practice on me once you finish the following:
Aspiring dentists enroll in a dental school accredited by the American Dental Association. Dental colleges offer either a Doctor of Dental Surgery (DDS) or Doctor of Dental Medicine (DMD). Prospective students must submit Dental Admission Test (DAT) scores with their application.
DDS degree programs cover four years of in-class, pre-clinical and clinical instruction. The first two years are devoted to lab and class instruction. Courses may include oral pathology, dental diagnosis and dental treatment techniques. In the last two years, students typically complete a dental rotation externship, which is usually conducted in dental clinics and allow students to treat patients under supervision.
In addition to general dentistry, dental schools typically offer specialized areas of study, such as oral and maxillofacial surgery, orthodontics or pediatric dentistry. These postgraduate programs generally take an additional 2-6 years to complete, depending on the chose specialty, and may include a residency.


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## bull2five (Jun 17, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> You sir are an Idiot!
> Google me,Dope.
> I am not a hack!
> You will never climb what I have climbed,
> ...



_You sir are an Idiot!_ Are you sure?

_Google me,Dope._ Why?

_I am not a hack!_ LOL Sucks being called a hack by someone who has no clue about the person they are talking about?

_You will never climb what I have climbed._ Pretty sure that’s NOT my goal. 

_Check me out Dumb a s s_ Why always the name calling?

_There is only one Jeffrey Lovstrom in the whole wide world.
Dope'
Jeff _
Congratulations Jeff 

I value the opinions of a lot of people on this site because I know they have so much knowledge. You sir may have knowledge but have no social skills.


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 17, 2012)

I wish I could like that you liked his last post. Lol

I hope this guy figures the name of the game out. 

Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 17, 2012)

I value the opinions of a lot of people on this site because I know they have so much knowledge. You sir may have knowledge but have no social skills.[/QUOTE]

I know sometimes I am a ####, but it is easier to just say stuff without worry if you offend someone. 
Guess I am straight up. Sorry, I will work on it tho!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 17, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I wish I could like that you liked his last post. Lol.
> 
> Jeff



LOL, I only did it as part of my character rehab!
Jeff 
:msp_wink:


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## Garden Of Eden (Jun 17, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> LOL, I only did it as part of my character rehab!
> Jeff
> :msp_wink:



Lol. I wish you were closer, I'd buy you a beer. I'd work a day or two on your crew each week just to learn. You guys got it good. Thanks for your input here.

Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 17, 2012)

Garden Of Eden said:


> Lol. I wish you were closer, I'd buy you a beer. I'd work a day or two on your crew each week just to learn. You guys got it good. Thanks for your input here.
> 
> Jeff



Thank's Jeff!
Jeff


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## Incomplete (Jun 17, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> I know sometimes I am a ####, but it is easier to just say stuff without worry if you offend someone.
> Guess I am straight up. Sorry, I will work on it tho!
> Jeff



Freiheitskaempfer! Pushing back agains the tyranny if PC one sentence at a time!


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