# Soft shackles



## firebrick43 (Jan 4, 2014)

Does any one use soft shackle in place of simi fixed carabiners?

I have made several dozen in amsteel for my sailing rig and tested them to 5000 pounds 1/8" diameter. Would go bigger for the non clip side of lanyard and such for more safety factor. 

Or is this a big no no and why?


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## Zale (Jan 4, 2014)

What's a soft shackle?


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## firebrick43 (Jan 4, 2014)

http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php

A shackle/carabiner made of amsteel rope which is as strong as equivalent sized steel cable


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## ATH (Jan 4, 2014)

I am not sure I get it...would you use a lanyard with an eye splice then soft shackle through that eye and onto the D on the side of your harness? What is the point? To save $15?

Rope on rope is less than desirable as that rubbing with wear much more quickly than rope on AL.


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## imagineero (Jan 5, 2014)

That's a very bad idea. If you need a shackle/carabiner then use one. Home made rigging isn't the way to go. It's worth noting that single braids in particular, rapidly use their strength much faster than double braids or metal. Single braids are used sparingly in rigging because you can make things out of them which you can't make out of double braids - ie whoopie slings/loopies, and are also used in non critical scenarios like winching due to their light weight, ease of splice and relatively low cost. The lack of stretch combined with the low melting point makes them unsuitable for general tree work except in very small amounts such as whoopies and then only as part of a system that is fairly dynamic ie three strand or typical double braids have plenty of stretch in them to absorb the shock of rigging work. 

The shackle you've shown has no application in tree work. High modulus single braids have been a godsend in the sailing world, for their weight, corrosion resistance, and ease of handling. Many light weight sailing blocks are rope mount now, they leave the block free to move in a way that hard shackles preciously couldn't. They also add a measure of safety as a jib sheet, if you happen to get whipped by the clew it will now only split you open instead of break bones. These soft shackles could only practically be used as chokers, but we have chokers already.

Shaun


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## KenJax Tree (Jan 5, 2014)

Sailing is one thing but something holding my [email protected]@ up in a tree is another. I agree with Shawn......bad idea


Sent from my Autotune Carb


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## firebrick43 (Jan 5, 2014)

imagineero said:


> Home made rigging isn't the way to go.
> Shaun



Do you have a paid professional knot tyer to tie good knots for you? Splicing is no different. A couple of fids and the manufactures directions and some practice, well you have the same thing a rigger will give you.




imagineero said:


> The lack of stretch combined with the low melting point makes them unsuitable for general tree work except in very small amounts such as whoopies and then only as part of a system that is fairly dynamic ie three strand or typical double braids have plenty of stretch in them to absorb the shock of rigging work.
> 
> Shaun



So we want our carabiners to stretch? ? 



imagineero said:


> They also add a measure of safety as a jib sheet, if you happen to get whipped by the clew it will now only split you open instead of break bones.
> Shaun



This is why/where I use them. Very elegant, durable, easy to use and fool proof. 



KenJax Tree said:


> Sailing is one thing but something holding my [email protected]@ up in a tree is another. I agree with Shawn......bad idea
> 
> 
> Sent from my Autotune Carb



People die quite frequently on the water due to gear failure. Many places on a sailboat are higher loaded than any climbing line. Mast stays break and several hundred pounds of aluminum are on your head. Safety lines break and you drown. 



imagineero said:


> combined with the low melting point makes them unsuitable for general tree work except in very small amounts
> 
> Shaun



The more I think about it this Is the main reason soft shackles shouldn't be used to replace carabiners. A rope running past the shackle in a decent could possibly burn the amsteel. Of course you could have a knock off Chinese carabiner fail to!


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## imagineero (Jan 5, 2014)

There are so many other reasons not to go using soft shackles for life support, or for any kind of tree work. Telling them to you would be kinda pointless judging by the tone of your response though. Next time you go posting a question in 101, first consider whether you would like to receive any answers, and if not then maybe just give yourself a pat on the back for being much cleverer than everybody else


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## firebrick43 (Jan 5, 2014)

Tone of my response? Sorry I meant no tone. Written word is hard to convey subtle points. I conceded that you are correct in the heat resistance or lack of! The carbines response was in slight jest as the subject at hand was soft shackles not running rigging subjected to dynamic loads or the slipperiness that causes knots to come undone in dynema/spectra rope.

I did not agree with some individuals that only professionals (insert profession here) should only perform certain task when many times amateurs are skilled and many times more an expert on a subject than a professional. Although I would like a professional surgeon to perform surgery on me!

I really am interested in other reasons why not to use soft shackles, just might not agree with all of them.


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## imagineero (Jan 5, 2014)

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. 

If you're a recreational climber, you can do anything you like. But if you're doing this for a living, or hoping to, then for better or worse you've got to conform to industry standards if for nothing other than reducing your liability. By and large, industry standards come about as a direct result of feedback from people who have been in the industry their whole lives, careful analysis of injuries, and long term studies of safety. Not saying that there's no room for innovation, but a lot of the time things are the way they are for a reason. 

Should you use a bit of rope in place of a carabiner or shackle? Not really. It works fine on your boat, but for different reasons it just isn't practical or safe in the tree. The minimum standard for life support equipment is 23kn, or 5,000 lbs or thereabouts. You might think that your soft shackles are going to stand up to that, and maybe they will... but do you have an in house testing program? Carabiners are generally tested to the 3 sigma standard. A sigma is a standard variation in breaking strain between the strongest and weakest unit in the batch. So, say you take a bunch of carabiners and break them. The strongest one breaks at 6,000lbs, the weakest breaks at 5,800. One sigma is then 200lbs. The better your manufacturing tolerances are, the less deviation you'll get. Poorly manufactured equipment can have a very large deviation. The sigma is then multiplied by 3, and taken off the breaking point of the weakest unit, so in this case 3 sigmas = 600lbs, and the weakest unit broke at 5,800 then the breaking strain will be rated at 5,200lbs. Do you have the time/money to do repetitive destructive testing of large batches, and keep records of where your raw materials came from and the certification they came with, then develop an in house quality assurance and quality control program, rate and tag your gear, and get certification for your splicing? If not, then your home rigging has no place in the work place. It's fine on your boat though.

In reality, even if you did all the above, the soft shackles you make are not fit for purpose. They have no double/triple locking mechanism, and single braid degrades rapidly. Single braids and webbing slings will lose as much as 60% of their rated strength within 12 months. The primary reason for it is that in a single braid there is no cover/core, the load is carried 100% by the exterior. Because the load bearing part of the rope is the exterior, it abrades and suffers UV degradation. Dirt, grit and nature abrade it at a microscopic level, weakening it. Not so with double braids or kernmantle ropes which have a protective cover with more of the load carried by the core. Not the case also with rated crane slings where the entire sling is wrapped in a non load bearing sheath. Destructive testing of single braids (and I'm including nylon webbing there!) have lost as much as 60% of their strength within 12 months. 

The biggest reason to not use a soft shackle in place of a carabiner or shackle though, is that there is no good reason to do so. It's neither more economical, safer, more convenient, more durable or more practical. It also opens up no new possibilities in using that piece of equipment in a new way (unlike in sailing where it has done many of those things). It exposes you to new liabilities, and puts your life at greater risk for no benefit. It's a step backwards, or maybe 4 or 5 steps backwards from just using a carabiner. The only reason you might do it is just out of curiosity.

It's probably worth mentioning that I'm not against splicing yourself. I've been sailing off and on for about 20 years now, yachts and catamarans and also served a stint in the coastguard where i got my boat masters ticket. I've always rigged my own boats, and done my own splicing. I occasionally splice my own climbing ropes but I really shouldn't because of the previously mentioned liability issues. My splice might be every bit as good as a professionally done on, or even better. I've read all the manufacturers instructions, have several books and videos on splicing and own all kinds of fids, wire fids, pushers and a toss wand. But at the end of the day I'm not a certified splicer, and I don't have QA/QC or records or testing and tagging. I'd certainly never sell a splice.

Shaun


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## Zale (Jan 5, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php
> 
> A shackle/carabiner made of amsteel rope which is as strong as equivalent sized steel cable




Now that I know what one is, I would not use one. Carabiners and steel shackles can tolerate much more abuse and are relatively inexpensive. To each his own though.


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## Zale (Jan 5, 2014)

firebrick43 said:


> http://l-36.com/soft_shackle_9.php
> 
> A shackle/carabiner made of amsteel rope which is as strong as equivalent sized steel cable




Now that I know what one is, I would not use one. Carabiners and steel shackles can tolerate much more abuse and are relatively inexpensive. To each his own though.


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## firebrick43 (Jan 5, 2014)

As far as I know there is no certification organization in the USA for splices? 

Seems to be in the UK however. 

Wasn't planning on selling any thing however. 

I have proof loaded several 3/16 shackles to 5000 lbs and a 5/16 to 10000 with no failure. Interesting on the 3 sigma. We use a lot of in house custom made lifting devices at work to lift upwards of 50 tons that is all proof loaded every year. The nylon slings are visually inspected and tossed but not proof loaded. Usually don't make it a year in service however due to damage. I looked and looked for single braid and strap degradation and found the 60 percent degradation but it was over *10* years of *constant* uv exposure time for Amsteel not 12 months. All claims I have seen puts spectra uv resistance over nylon. Which makes sense since saddles and harnesses have a 5 or 10 year lifespan. Remember that it's perfectly acceptable to use knots to attach a lanyard rope to your d rings or snap and you loose 60% strength instantly or 4200 lbs on a 7000 lbs line. Do you have a link or source for the 12 month number if it's correct I need to reevaluate several other items (not climbing) where I use amsteel.



As far a the double locking, well yea I give you that one. Although I really think how it works is the equivalent as I can't see how it could open with out a knowing and concentrated effort and never by accident but they are especially not self closing and therefore wouldn't be useful as a lifeline gear that would be adjusted installed /removed/reattached in the tree and I was not thinking of using as such but there is always the possibility if it become accepted practice in one specific area some fool would use it inappropriately elsewhere. 

I guess the biggest reason I thought of using the soft shackles is the report of a fatality due to a tree splitting and compressing the victims lanyard suffocating/smothering him. If you had a steel core lanyard there would be no link to severe with a knife in such situation before one passed out if they could remain focused enough to cut themselves free. Of course amsteel doesn't exactly cut the easiest either! Knife must be kept razor sharp. 

The low melting temp to me still seems like the biggest reason not to use it. 

Thanks


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## Zale (Jan 5, 2014)

You think way too much. If your concern is a tree splitting on you while cutting, you need to learn what causes the tree to split. Usually, when these accidents happen, its due to inexperience and lack of knowledge. These type of accidents happen suddenly and violently. They tend to crush the climber before he/she can react. Most times the lanyard will break due to the force.


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## imagineero (Jan 6, 2014)

I climb on a ce lanyard style rope lanyard

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/rope-flipline-grabs-a-short-review.247216/

I don't know that a rope lanyard gives you any more safety over a steel core when it comes to getting crushed/entangled. I don't carry a knife in the tree, but you could cut through either a steel core or a rope lanyard pretty quick with a climbing saw. I've cut up my old wire core fliplines and it's easier than you might think. I haven't attempted cutting through a wire core flipline with a handsaw, but cutting through a rope with a handsaw is quicker and easier than using most knives.

The crush type injury sneaks up on you. I had a close call last year that's worth sharing. I was blocking down a coral tree, not sure if you have them in the states. They're very soft, so you feel like you've got a light saber when you're blocking down. Softer than palm. The barrel was about 20", and on a lean of maybe 15 degrees. I was fliplined in on spurs blocking the barrel down and foolishly was not making a scarf, just coming in perpendicular to the lean and cutting straight through and letting the block fall off. I generally won't make a scarf on a straight vertical barrel when blocking down, but when on the lean you really need to. With all that saw speed and the soft wood I didn't bother scarfing, and I was taking out big sections; 8~10' in length so plenty of weight. Coral is wet and heavy, pulpy kinda wood. Well, I took another block and the saw bogged at the critical moment, jammed up with pulp in the side cover. The barrel started going over of it's own accord, and all I could do is keep trying to squeeze the trigger in the hope the saw would clear while watching in horror as it started to tear out. It tore out a good section below me, maybe 6~8' and the torn out section slammed me into the trunk, crushing my nuts. Took the wind right out of me in an instant and made me want to throw up. Luckily, with coral being so soft the torn out section broke off where my flipline was, leaving me looking a little stupid but none the worse for wear after a few minutes recovery. This story could have had an entirely different ending if the wood weren't so soft. It's nice to have a little reminder like that every now and then, a slap in the face rather than having your head cut off. Lets you know you were getting a little cocky and you should get back to being more sensible.

I don't think a soft shackle would add any sort of safety to a scenario like that. I also highly doubt the flipline would ever break before you did. Fliplines are rated for tonnage.


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## imagineero (Jan 6, 2014)

I'll have to look up the rope break tests and post them in a day or two. They're worth reading.


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## Limbrat (Jan 6, 2014)

Zale said:


> You think way too much. If your concern is a tree splitting on you while cutting, you need to learn what causes the tree to split. Usually, when these accidents happen, its due to inexperience and lack of knowledge. These type of accidents happen suddenly and violently. They tend to crush the climber before he/she can react. Most times the lanyard will break due to the force.


I've got to disagree with that first statement. You can NEVER think too much when working in or on a tree. Your brain is what will keep you alive and well if you use it. If you think it out, you can avoid all but the freakiest things. The sudden and violent part is true indeed. There would be a lot of variables involved in whether a lanyard would break or not. Size of tree, weight of chunk/top, lanyard size, etc. I've read of several climbers that were pinned and had to be lowered.


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## firebrick43 (Jan 6, 2014)

imagineero said:


> I'll have to look up the rope break tests and post them in a day or two. They're worth reading.



Thank you!


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## Zale (Jan 6, 2014)

N


Limbrat said:


> I've got to disagree with that first statement. You can NEVER think too much when working in or on a tree. Your brain is what will keep you alive and well if you use it. If you think it out, you can avoid all but the freakiest things. The sudden and violent part is true indeed. There would be a lot of variables involved in whether a lanyard would break or not. Size of tree, weight of chunk/top, lanyard size, etc. I've read of several climbers that were pinned and had to be lowered.



No, you can over think. Sometimes the simplest solutions are best. I've known 2 people who had this type of accident. The first one, the lanyard popped like a rubber band. In the second one, the lanyard held and crushed the climber. He was unable to cut the lanyard due to the fact he was in shock and freaking out. They both lived but will never climb again.


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## Limbrat (Jan 6, 2014)

Didn't say anything about simplicity, I said you better be thinking if you are going to have a lengthy career in any dangerous business.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 7, 2014)

Both are right. You need to have ur brain going at all times, but at the same time, don't over complicate something simple.


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