# Best older skidder for steep mtn logging



## sammy riddle (Aug 23, 2015)

looking at 
franklin 170
timberjack 240
both manual transamission
some people say frankilin gearin don't work as good steep mtns 
not sure couples guys round here say 2nd to slow 3rd to fast to pull good what your guys experience 
both mid 70'S year models 
looking for some input thks in advance


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## Marshy (Aug 23, 2015)

Any consideration for JohnDeere 440? I'm not sure how they compare to the other two you listed...


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## sammy riddle (Aug 23, 2015)

Not sure it's big enough. Over all but not sure how it compares maybe closer than I think for fairly large tree steep ground
Do know lot of people say cab entry little small for big guy I m 260 6'5"


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## northmanlogging (Aug 23, 2015)

Well, pretty much all skidders suck on steep ground, but I hear the Timberjack has a lower center of gravity and will be more stable on steep ground. IF you plan on logging mostly hill sides consider a dozer, or one of the FMC tracked skidders.

The Deere 440's do have a smallish cage, but its not so bad I'm 6.0 and 310#s with a gimpy leg, hop in and out no problem (right side entry is a little goofy...)

Also if you do end up getting a Deere, they are known for being tippy on steep ground, and wear a hard hat when driving, one wrong bump and you can and will knock yerself out on the cage


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## Marshy (Aug 23, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Well, pretty much all skidders suck on steep ground, but I hear the Timberjack has a lower center of gravity and will be more stable on steep ground. IF you plan on logging mostly hill sides consider a dozer, or one of the FMC tracked skidders.
> 
> The Deere 440's do have a smallish cage, but its not so bad I'm 6.0 and 310#s with a gimpy leg, hop in and out no problem (right side entry is a little goofy...)
> 
> Also if you do end up getting a Deere, they are known for being tippy on steep ground, and wear a hard hat when driving, one wrong bump and you can and will knock yerself out on the cage


No doubt on the head knockers. If you can I suggest a football helmet with a chainsaw face shield. I've never hit my head so many times in my life.


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## chucker (Aug 23, 2015)

! on steep ground the bottom line will say tracked skidder/dozer will be your best bet right out of the cage!!!! slower with a sure footing, and no roll like the tired/rubber wheeled skidders to worry about! sliding down hill sideways with a load on the back pulled in tight an slipping into a stump/rock can and will take out a bead seat! !!"OH CHIT"!!, YOU WONT LIKE!!..............


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## Ferguson system (Aug 23, 2015)

One word: Forwarder!


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## sammy riddle (Aug 23, 2015)

Got a dozer built arch to go on back .works great but be building roads the long hauls wearing my tracks way to quick


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## northmanlogging (Aug 23, 2015)

Long skids ya can't beat a good skidder, but give the dozer some serious thought if you want to work on steep ground.

A skidders weight is 2 or more feet off the ground, with one axle pivoting its really a glorified trike with the delusion of security, much more then a few degrees of side hill and you end up rolling down hill on your roof and then probably dying in a nice ball of fire.

A dozer or cat, most of the weight is down low, and in the tracks themself's much harder to roll then a skidder, not impossible, just more difficult, they will tend to slide sideways rather then just ****ing tip over.

But hey its your project, and I understand that tracks are expensive, just be careful will ya.


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## coltont (Aug 23, 2015)

540E with a 6cyl and 200' of cable. Crawl like a goat. If you have good tires or chains.

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## triathlete123 (Aug 24, 2015)

If you go with a skidder, I'd look at something small, such as a JD440, Clark664, or TJ350. And have a long mainline and keep the machine in-line with the slope.


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## 2dogs (Aug 24, 2015)

JD 440s scare me on flat ground. At least the cable version, no idea if the mad a grapple version. Pull just a little off line and the skidder starts to tip. Steep ground to me means tracks. Or a yarder. Or this.


There is another vid on youtube showing a remote controlled winch help a skidder. I can't find it right now but I think it was Norwegian.


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## fordf150 (Aug 24, 2015)

Not much experience with skidders but the 440 has a reputation for tipping even on our mild hills. Few weeks ago local loggers had 648? grapple skidder layed over on what I would call flat ground.


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## triathlete123 (Aug 25, 2015)

Tipping over has a lot to do with how much of a load and how high a load is carried. Keep your loads lighter and lower on steep ground and vertical to the slope as much as possible. And 23.1's are best for steeper slopes. If you are skidding exclusively on steeper slopes avoid the 18.4s, unless you have a lot of experience with them.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 25, 2015)

I don't know if a load has much to do with it, at least with the 440's, pulling a sharp corner on flat ground will tip em, but even unloaded on a slope is sketchy, real easy to get one wheel in the air and be using the blade as a kickstand. Hell even going forward down hill and stomping on the brakes can send you over front ways


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## chucker (Aug 25, 2015)

"EXPERIENCE" is the key to dealing with tough situations, be careful with your decisions!


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## Gologit (Aug 25, 2015)

Steep ground? Tracks, not tires.


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## triathlete123 (Aug 25, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> I don't know if a load has much to do with it, at least with the 440's, pulling a sharp corner on flat ground will tip em, but even unloaded on a slope is sketchy, real easy to get one wheel in the air and be using the blade as a kickstand. Hell even going forward down hill and stomping on the brakes can send you over front ways



It's the load that will turn over a skidder, depending on the size, height, terrain, and how it's carried in relation to the slope. Carry a heavy load high in the fairlead across a fairly steep slope and I don't think any skidder will remain on four wheels.

To be sure, I've never run a 440 but assumed that since it was small/compact, it ought to be fairly stable. I'm in the market for a skidder too but preferably a grapple to do a little bit of cutting on my own property. Thanks for the input. I know better to stay away from them then.

And to be fair to JDs, which I really like but have never owned one, I've run 648 and 748e's with 30.5's and they are extremely stable, but they have much longer wheelbases than the smaller skidders too. In fact, I can recall nearly standing straight up on the floor boards going down some hills at times, without a load of course, thinking that it would loop end over end. The situations we sometimes get ourselves into can give us nightmares.

If I was still in the logging business, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a JD grapple, especially the 648's. Very fast, powerful, easy to drive, maneuverable, and easy to service but expensive to repair should anything break.


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## coltont (Aug 25, 2015)

Low and slow with a load on the steep and you'll be just fine. No hot rodding. It's really not that bad , normally the operator chickens out before it get dicey. It usually feels way worse in the cab than it actually it's.

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## northmanlogging (Aug 25, 2015)

Maybe its just me... and maybe its just my skidder, but more then once I've had it up on one wheel, and not always while pulling, about 50-50 really, But then I 'don't work on real flat ground all the time...


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## coltont (Aug 25, 2015)

That's why your a logger. Quit being a pantywaist. Don't try and skid the whole woods at once and don't run the ole girl like your in a race. That's why you have a cable machine not a grapple. Cable skidders are the machine for the steep. You can't skid on the steep like you can the flat ground. Don't be greedy take what you can get and come back and get another trip. At the end of the day you'll likely be further ahead and have less **** to fix.

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## northmanlogging (Aug 25, 2015)

Its not like I can cut my logs in half to make them light enough to skid... I only get 1-2 logs on average... and the mills don't like anything under 30' here. 

Besides read the post, and a few of my others, its ****ing steep here, Most times I barely have enough flat ground to make a landing for 1 or 2 loads at a time. So its not a matter of slowing down, cause a rarely get over half throttle or out of 2nd gear for pulling logs, its a matter of not rolling the best piece of equipment I have and not being able to stand it back up again, not to mention that whole dying, alone, without cell service in the middle of nowhere thing... 

This ain't the ****ing ozarks or the blue hills, this timber is big, the slopes are steep and the ground is unstable, facts of live in the PNW.


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## BeatCJ (Aug 26, 2015)

What are you talking about. I've been up there, you have lots of flat ground.

Most of it is on edge to make room for the really steep stuff, but You get more surface area that way.

I need a  smiley.


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## sammy riddle (Aug 29, 2015)

Ok update I traded for the 
Timberjack 240d
Got a question any of running your tires loaded ?
Thought about loading back tires but can t decide


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## ChoppyChoppy (Aug 29, 2015)

Have calcium on all 4 tires on the 648D I run. The other skidder, a 648D-III doesn't. I don't really notice a difference. Both run the wide tires though.
Does your skidder have tire chains? That is a huge help for traction and helps to keep the tires lasting longer... at ~$3k each for tires a set of chains is pretty cheap.


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## 056 kid (Aug 30, 2015)

chucker said:


> ! on steep ground the bottom line will say tracked skidder/dozer will be your best bet right out of the cage!!!! slower with a sure footing, and no roll like the tired/rubber wheeled skidders to worry about! sliding down hill sideways with a load on the back pulled in tight an slipping into a stump/rock can and will take out a bead seat! !!"OH CHIT"!!, YOU WONT LIKE!!..............



Reminds me of a story about a cat skinner who thought it would be a good idea to drop down over a big buckskin on a downhill grade. The story teller who was catching a ride decided to watch. He kept all his fingers and his scalp. Soon as the cat nosed over and gave the turn a tug, the logs took off, mashing up the cage. The guy lost some fingers and apparently a chunk of his scalp. Duane, the story teller said had he rode, he probably would have been killed.


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## 056 kid (Aug 30, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> Ok update I traded for the
> Timberjack 240d
> Got a question any of running your tires loaded ?
> Thought about loading back tires but can t decide




The back half of those short TJs need the most help. Trying to back up to some wood and the ass end just slides to & fro whilst the front tires are pushing dead ahead. Just don't fill them all the way up.


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## 056 kid (Aug 30, 2015)

Ferguson system said:


> One word: Forwarder!



You'll still need a winch. A forwarder does well with shovels in moderate ground. Dozer for steeps. With the shovel you can hook up a saw buck & just drag it around to good locations for brief landings. But you still have to get them to a road

An outfit in NC that i cut for just got logger of the year there presented by Columbia. They have 2 cats 2 shovels, a 6 wheeled JD fowarder, (nice machine) and the sawbuck. I cut some steep ground by Robinsville NC and they did well with their arrangement. Aside from a patch where I sidehilled a bunch of good tall poplar, cutting 2 33s befor the first knot. Saved out every inch. Had i "walked em down the mtn", with the rocks there, there would have been some power bucking going on & i havent figured out how to get them to pop in 16' incriments yet lol. Anyways, laying them out nice, leaving some high stumps to keep things safe. Well as talented as some folks are. Old habits die hard and in Appalachia, they throw them down the hill With 2 roads cross the hill in my f&b and more than enough cable to be able to pull diagonal on down hill pulls. They manages to almost knock the winch off their 650 jd with a 33 that flumed right into it. Could have easily been prebented by walking the cat 10' foward. So i cut a real nice big oak straight down like they wanted, topped out right @ a road cross hill. whacked it in two, (dont like bucking a tree poised on rocks and pointed down the hill) and proced to watch them ***** foot the two logs down to the road. The first run slid down to them & kept on going, trying to take the cat with it. Had i side hilled that tree they could have hooked to it & had it in a road with bumpers with a 15 foot pull, no headache, less time spent.
Oh well nice folks, just stuck in their ways.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 31, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> Ok update I traded for the
> Timberjack 240d
> Got a question any of running your tires loaded ?
> Thought about loading back tires but can t decide


Calcium is nice ( or beet juice now) and it really helps with both traction and stability, but you have to consider how you plan on moving the machine, cause it does add a great deal of weight. If you're using low boys, or class A trucks no big deal, but if like me its under 26k then you need to consider total vehicle weight, i.e. truck, trailer, and machine...

The other thing to consider is who's going to change the tires when they go flat? No calcium is doable by yerself, Calcium... also doable but only if you're half Sasquatch, or half brown bear... and even then it sucks... a lot...


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## DanTheCanadian (Sep 24, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Also if you do end up getting a Deere, they are known for being tippy on steep ground, and wear a hard hat when driving, one wrong bump and you can and will knock yerself out on the cage



This made me laugh because it reminded me of this older gentlemen we had skidding for us in a TJ240. He decided to show us how it was done and played hog hauling pine up a very steep hill. He got all cock eyed with his machine and hooked a stump, I was certain that I'd be picking up bits.

Anyway he settled down on his tires (Thank God) and when we rushed over to check on him he was sitting there dizzy as all hell with a good shiner and both dentures sitting on dash of skidder. 

So don't forget to consider how well your teeth fit in the machine too!


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## slowp (Sep 29, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> looking at
> franklin 170
> timberjack 240
> both manual transamission
> ...



Define steep.
Steep to somebody out east, is flat out here.
What length is the "steep"? Is it a short pitch? Or is it a half mile of cow face down to a road? What are the forest practice rules in your area? What kind of damage to the soils is allowable? What do you want it to look like afterwards?

In my book, there's more to it than how steep of ground can my skidder go on.


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## sammy riddle (Sep 29, 2015)

slowp said:


> Define steep.
> Steep to somebody out east, is flat out here.
> What length is the "steep"? Is it a short pitch? Or is it a half mile of cow face down to a road? What are the forest practice rules in your area? What kind of damage to the soils is allowable? What do you want it to look like afterwards?
> 
> In my book, there's more to it than how steep of ground can my skidder go on.


cow face steep but usually no more than half mile , 
generally try to build roads around side of hills to pick-up logs the ups and downs are always steep and real steep
traded for the timber jack 240d haven't got to go pick it up yet 
still undecided on loading tires 
also looking into chains


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## 1270d (Sep 29, 2015)

Load em and use chains.


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## sammy riddle (Sep 29, 2015)

1270d said:


> Load em and use chains.


think i will soon as funds permit


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## northmanlogging (Sep 30, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> think i will soon as funds permit


So never?


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## sammy riddle (Sep 30, 2015)

Boy you got that one right 


northmanlogging said:


> So never?


Lol


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## northmanlogging (Sep 30, 2015)

been running mostly bald tires for over two years now... had to get a used one earlier this year cause I can't ever seem to afford shiny new tires.


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## sammy riddle (Sep 30, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> been running mostly bald tires for over two years now... had to get a used one earlier this year cause I can't ever seem to afford shiny new tires.


guess anybody could put some of that tire shine stuff on them make em look purdy probably get even less traction then oh well ,, work harder every year ,make less every year, the American way I guess


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## northmanlogging (Sep 30, 2015)

Fresh wax and armor all the tires, Railroad days are Sat. here in lovely Granite Falls... 

Wait **** that, I put a fresh coat of paint on when I bought her, its still mostly in the right places... I got trees to kill.


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## Skeans (Sep 30, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Fresh wax and armor all the tires, Railroad days are Sat. here in lovely Granite Falls...
> 
> Wait **** that, I put a fresh coat of paint on when I bought her, its still mostly in the right places... I got trees to kill.


I may have a set of 2 sitting up your alley

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## northmanlogging (Sep 30, 2015)

18.4x26? 

Cheap?

Wheels not necessary.


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## Skeans (Sep 30, 2015)

I'll look around we had a 440 we converted to a 540 grapple back half so I'll see what we have sitting still.

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## bnmc98 (Oct 1, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> cow face steep but usually no more than half mile ,
> generally try to build roads around side of hills to pick-up logs the ups and downs are always steep and real steep
> traded for the timber jack 240d haven't got to go pick it up yet
> still undecided on loading tires
> also looking into chains



If you are on steep, and no chains... pack up and go home in my opinion. I had zero on my rear and could do nothing on 20% or more grade. My TJ is real light in the rear. Also for what its worth, I think Ice-picks suck. wont hardly crawl over a stump on a grade, slides on debris, bla bla bla. Get Bear Paws and weld another inch of grouser on top of the cleats if they are worn down a little. I work soft soil, lots of dead-fall, and lots of rock on steep ground.
Thats what works for me.

Thats a light machine, don't get too greedy  Also if you are side-hilling a lot it will walk down with a load on and slide down easier than a heavier machine, just a heads up.

btw I have one loaded tire on the rear, the other had a new tube put in but no juice I am guessing. Can't tell you if its really worth it or not. I did almost roll it once and that was the tire without the juice that came up on me. So probably worth it if your tires are in ok shape. Mine are not so I won't waste the money.


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## sammy riddle (Oct 3, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> If you are on steep, and no chains... pack up and go home in my opinion. I had zero on my rear and could do nothing on 20% or more grade. My TJ is real light in the rear. Also for what its worth, I think Ice-picks suck. wont hardly crawl over a stump on a grade, slides on debris, bla bla bla. Get Bear Paws and weld another inch of grouser on top of the cleats if they are worn down a little. I work soft soil, lots of dead-fall, and lots of rock on steep ground.
> Thats what works for me.
> 
> Thats a light machine, don't get too greedy  Also if you are side-hilling a lot it will walk down with a load on and slide down easier than a heavier machine, just a heads up.
> ...


are you running chains on all 4 tires ?


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## bnmc98 (Oct 4, 2015)

sammy riddle said:


> are you running chains on all 4 tires ?



Yes. I have the Ice picks up front and hate them. Bear paws on back. I am used to having bear paws on all four and the ice picks just do not perform well in my terrain.
I had just the pair on the front when I got it to the mountain. Worthless... I've seen a lot of guys running it that way and all I can say is that must be flatland stuff there...


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## Skeans (Oct 11, 2015)

We always ran the bear paws all the way around year round unless we'd drop them to run down the road.

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## Skeans (Oct 11, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> 18.4x26?
> 
> Cheap?
> 
> Wheels not necessary.


No luck all we have left is a back half of a 440.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 11, 2015)

Got the bumper thing? I could use one of them... (Deere calls em fenders, or an apron?)


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## Skeans (Oct 11, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> Got the bumper thing? I could use one of them... (Deere calls em fenders, or an apron?)


Pm your number I'll get some pictures of the back half

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## daniel george (Nov 17, 2016)

I use a 240 a with wide track housing and 24.5 x 32.I also put a five speed standard tranny instead of 4 speed.It helps with steep uphill pulls were you have to drop your wood to upstep from one ledge to the next


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## ArtB (Nov 17, 2016)

Have 2 JD440s with tracks. 
Have Seat belt in them, no problem getting bounced up into the rops/fops. Have used them fore and aft on 45 degree slopes, sideways only on about 30% but have seen used sideways at 45 degrees, but i'm to 'chicken' to ru sideways over 30 deg. One is blades, the other front bucket. Only used bucket in ground position on slopes. 

relatively low ground clearance, having a winch is good as more than once had to winch myself off a small stump in the brush. Have a wich roller at abut 5 ft high - biggest ever have skidded was 3 ft dia Dfir 30 ft long easily on level ground with big end off the ground. 

Have a bobcat with tracks that will flip itself on anything over 20 deg or so unless backing uphill. For fun, do a search for bobcat gymnastics for bobcat instability demos.


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