# Engine options for Vermeer SC-252 Stump grinder



## Arborist83 (Sep 12, 2009)

Hi everyone!
I am in the process of replacing the engine on my Vermeer SC-252 stump grinder. The existing engine is a Kohler Command 27hp. It has been damaged, hence the replacement.

Does anyone know if any of the higher horsepower Kohler engines or any other brand will fit onto my stump grinder? The machine could do with a bit more power... If anyone has had any experience with this kind of thing it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## treeoperations (Sep 12, 2009)

im fairly sure there is a bigger hp motor with the same mounts and configuration, but it could be under a different name im not 100% sure, if you looking for more power what about a small 2 or 3 cylinder diesel.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 12, 2009)

I think the 27 hp Diahatsu diesel (Briggs and stratton) fits in, but in my opinion, its a piece of junk.


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## WolverineMarine (Sep 12, 2009)

I was considering this same option on my Rayco 1625 Super Jr..I have the Kohler Vanguard 25 hp on it now..I believe I just saw in the Northern tool catalog that Kohler also makes up to a 32 hp 2 cylinder gas engine that seems of the same overall design. My only concerns about this would be the extra weight..even though I'm sure it cant be THAT much more..maybe 10-15lbs.. and I'm not sure how over-engineered the rest of the machine is to be able to take the extra torque and other things you would be gaining versus shortening the usefull life of the bearings and other critical parts that get expensive and time consuming to replace when they go out. My recommendation would be call you dealer and see if they think it could handle the added stress before you buy the bigger engine..


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## woodchux (Sep 12, 2009)

kohler makes up to 40 hp engines that would work for you http://www.kohler-engine-parts.opeengines.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72_151_328 i replaced a 25hp kohler on our vermeer 625 with a 36hp kohler. the 36 has the best bang for the buck torque wise IMO. you may have to fab up an adaptor plate for the mount though...


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 12, 2009)

WolverineMarine said:


> I was considering this same option on my Rayco 1625 Super Jr..I have the Kohler Vanguard 25 hp on it now..I believe I just saw in the Northern tool catalog that Kohler also makes up to a 32 hp 2 cylinder gas engine that seems of the same overall design. My only concerns about this would be the extra weight..even though I'm sure it cant be THAT much more..maybe 10-15lbs.. and I'm not sure how over-engineered the rest of the machine is to be able to take the extra torque and other things you would be gaining versus shortening the usefull life of the bearings and other critical parts that get expensive and time consuming to replace when they go out. My recommendation would be call you dealer and see if they think it could handle the added stress before you buy the bigger engine..



Rayco already makes a 1635 and the only difference is that it has the Vangaurd 35 hp engine so I think it can handle the extra power no problem.

Someone in the Heavy Equipment section upgraded their 1625 (or was it a 252?). Might want to search on there and/or post on there about this.


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## WolverineMarine (Sep 12, 2009)

gr8scott72 said:


> Rayco already makes a 1635 and the only difference is that it has the Vangaurd 35 hp engine so I think it can handle the extra power no problem.
> 
> Someone in the Heavy Equipment section upgraded their 1625 (or was it a 252?). Might want to search on there and/or post on there about this.



I know they do bud..but...its a larger overall machine..they didnt just decide to put a larger engine on the same chassis so they could offer another model..


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 12, 2009)

WolverineMarine said:


> I know they do bud..but...its a larger overall machine..they didnt just decide to put a larger engine on the same chassis so they could offer another model..



Go look at the specs. The only thing that shows different between the 2 is weight and the clutch has a brake on it on the 1635. Same machine otherwise.


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## grandpatractor (Sep 12, 2009)

I am a fan of the kawasaki's. Deere has used them in their larger lawn tractors for years and they have held up well. I have one in my Gravely zero-turn mower. 

http://www.kawpowr.com/engines/index.aspx


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## treesurgeon (Sep 13, 2009)

any engine bigger than what it comes with will probably smoke the belt and bearings.
search threads about the conversions that really work.


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## WolverineMarine (Sep 13, 2009)

gr8scott72 said:


> Go look at the specs. The only thing that shows different between the 2 is weight and the clutch has a brake on it on the 1635. Same machine otherwise.



The 252 and the 352 are FAR from being the same machine as I mentioned previously..check the links
http://www.vermeer.com/vcom/EnvironmentalEquipment/Model.jsp?PrdlnID=3610&ModID=10301

http://www.vermeer.com/vcom/EnvironmentalEquipment/Model.jsp?PrdlnID=3610&ModID=53253

One is a 3 wheel machine..and the other is 4 wheeled..the newer Raycos have the same chassis yes..but not the older ones like mine(IMO Rayco screwed up going to the 4 wheel design, we have a 4 wheel model at work and I get around 10 times faster in tight spots with the ole' tricycle rig)..and we're talking about Vemeers anyway..again..check with your dealer before you decide to upsize the engine..the bearings, belts, hydraulics, and frame may not be beefy enough to take the extra stress from more ponys..


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 13, 2009)

WolverineMarine said:


> The 252 and the 352 are FAR from being the same machine as I mentioned previously..check the links
> http://www.vermeer.com/vcom/EnvironmentalEquipment/Model.jsp?PrdlnID=3610&ModID=10301
> 
> http://www.vermeer.com/vcom/EnvironmentalEquipment/Model.jsp?PrdlnID=3610&ModID=53253
> ...



No one ever said the 252 and 352 were the same machine.


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## Arborist83 (Sep 22, 2009)

Thankyou everyone for your feedback.
The local dealer has informed me that the Kohler 30hp and the 38hp will bolt straight on, the mounting bolts and driveshaft are in the same place. He is just finding out whether the bearings and belts etc will cope with the extra hp.

My insurance company is saying that the max life I could get out of a 27hp Kohler on a stump grinder is 1800 hours and they are making me pay the difference between the number of hours on the damaged engine and a new engine. I tried to argue that a Kohler will to far more hours than that to no avail.

Question:
Who out there has a 27hp Kohler (or similar) on a stump grinder and how many hours have you clocked up?


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## WolverineMarine (Sep 22, 2009)

I have a 25hp Kohler on my 1625 super jr, it has about 550 hrs on it..running strong as ever..I do an oil change and fuel and oil filter change every 50hrs, and plan on changing the 2 plugs about every 250hrs or so..anyone have a good rule of thumb for changing the hydraulic oil/filter?


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## gr8scott72 (Sep 22, 2009)

WolverineMarine said:


> I have a 25hp Kohler on my 1625 super jr, it has about 550 hrs on it..running strong as ever..I do an oil change and fuel and oil filter change every 50hrs, and plan on changing the 2 plugs about every 250hrs or so..anyone have a good rule of thumb for changing the hydraulic oil/filter?



I just read the manual on my little ASV RC30 skid steer and it said 250 hours on the hydro filter and 500 hours on the fluid. Probably pretty similar.


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## pdqdl (Sep 22, 2009)

I am very unhappy with the Kohler Command engine series. The engines are not re-buildable, as they do not have any thrust bearings. Instead, Kohler installed some crazy V-shaped groove in the cast aluminum which cannot be machined. Furthermore, the flywheel side of the engine does not have it any bearing at all! If you put a significant side load on the output shaft of the crankshaft, some of the torque gets transferred to the flywheel side and eats up the engine block very quickly. 

So every one of the Kohler Command engines is a throwaway model. I won't buy a machine that has one mounted up on it.

It is possible to re-power a stump grinder with one of the air cooled Lombardini diesel engines, but you would have to obtain the correct flywheel-PTO adapter to drive the belt on the stump grinder. Once you got the engineering figured out, it would probably be an excellent machine.


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## stumper63 (Sep 23, 2009)

Why so frustrated? Do you have a stump grinder with a Kohler Command engine? What happened? Breakdown at really low hours?

As far as rebuildable, from my perspective, who cares! I've got over 3,550 hours on my 2003 25hp Command Pro engine and still going strong. Not one engine problem, not one! Never changed anything but filters, oil, and a starter. Seems pretty reliable to me. Is mine a fluke???

Anyway, I really do wish they were rebuildable too, but for that kind of reliability I know I've gotten more than my money's worth out of this one.

Stumper63


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## pdqdl (Sep 24, 2009)

I had a commercial mower that went through several of those engines. All you had to do to ruin a brand new engine was to tighten the belt on the mower deck a little too much. The spring-loaded tensioner did not even have to be compressed all the way before it would ruin the engine.

When the bearing surfaces in the block wore enough to cause the failure of the seal beneath the flywheel, it would begin spewing oil out the top seal. *POOF! Your engine can no longer be repaired.* New, used, or even worn out: that engine is now ruined.

Once we finally figured out the cause of the problem, it had cost me several engines, and led to the end of an otherwise useful machine. In general, if the manufacturer is putting in obvious shortcuts [like not installing engine bearings], you can bet they're putting in shortcuts everywhere else too.


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## stumper63 (Dec 8, 2010)

Hey Arborist83,

Did you ever end up repowering your 252 with a Kohler engine? I'm about to pull the trigger on either a Briggs Vanguard 35hp or Kohler 36 hp to repower one of mine.

Did it really bolt straight up? It looks to me from the specs that the base of the engine is a big bigger in both directions, so would take some fabrication to make the swap.

Anyway, let me know what ended up happening.

Thanks,

Stumper63


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## indiansprings (Dec 8, 2010)

Look up Dr. Deutz or look him up on the net, get one of the little air cooled diesels that are super fuel efficent. I run a 4 cylinder 1.6 liter CAT 35 hp on my ztr lawn mower and it is fantastic. It uses only .7 gal per hour.


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## WolverineMarine (Dec 8, 2010)

indiansprings said:


> Look up Dr. Deutz or look him up on the net, get one of the little air cooled diesels that are super fuel efficent. I run a 4 cylinder 1.6 liter CAT 35 hp on my ztr lawn mower and it is fantastic. It uses only .7 gal per hour.



Deutz is in a MAJOR lawsuit with Rayco over their engines..stumper engines need to be beefed up CONSIDERABLY over ANYTHING that goes into any mower..Rayco tried going with Kubota for their diesels and they cant handle them either..a guy I sub work out to that has an RG-100..one of only like 5 in the entire country says any engine you put onto a stumper better be the heaviest duty you have known..you can buy a 25 hp kohler engine from northern for like 1500 bucks..but that is designed for low vibration use in mowers..the ones that rayco puts onto their 1625 will run you around 3800..if you think I am kidding..call them up and ask them..northern doesnt even care the model they use..the major problem simply is too much vibration..its as easy as that..dont waste your money on anything less..if you do..you ARE wasting your money..


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## Arborist83 (Dec 8, 2010)

I have replaced the Kohler 27hp with a Kohler 30hp.
I talked to both my Vermeer dealer and the Kohler distributor and both said the engine mounts for the 27, 30, and 38hp engines were the same.

...and they were wrong! I had a quote from the Vermeer agents to fit the new engine so it didn't affect me, but they were very unhappy when they had to make a new mounting plate for the base, and there was also at least one bolt on the side which was in a different place too!:bang:

Having said that the machine has now run brilliantly for a long time and the extra 3hp has made more difference than I would have thought possible.

I would have loved to put the 38hp on there but they weren't sure if the belts and bearings would stand up the the added torque, and I didn't want to do a whole rebuild! I still wonder if it could though.....


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## woodchux (Dec 10, 2010)

Specs on the kohlers...






How i got the bigger engine to fit on mine...


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## rootzone-pro (Jun 24, 2012)

*SC252 repower*

I know this is an old thread but I am sure I am not the only one wanting to repower my 252. Kohler sucks - even though Vermeer sell the complete engine for less than $1700. I wouldn't mind a Honda, but they only go to 22hp. I have noticed that their 22 outperforms Kohler 25's and 27's in the smaller chippers. (Altec and Bearcat vs Vermeer). Chipper design has something to do with that. Kawasaki would be great, but a little heavy on an already top heavy machine. Then there is the Hatz diesel, now that would be something. Briggs Vanguard 30hp would be better than the Kohler, but their repower program doesn't work for us little guys. The bearings and belts on the 252 IMO will not take over 35hp. I want to upgrade the hydraulic pump and eliminate the two upper belts. More ground speed, more sweep speed, and easier adjustment of the wheel belt. If anyone out there has done, or is interested in doing, any of this I would like to discuss with them.


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## Toddppm (Jun 24, 2012)

Might be something in here http://www.arboristsite.com/large-equipment/61193.htm


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