# Making a race chain for gtg's. Help appreciated.



## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

I wont say I know at what im doing thats why I am starting this thread. I am hoping to get some pointers from some of you that have built race chains with some sucess. I know that a few of the saws I own are pretty snappy and can get thru a piece of wood quick but it seems I am at a disadvantage when I am racing and my opponent is using a modified chain. So here I am, I wanna try my hands at modding a chain. I just got in from the shop playing with my 511ax grinder and a 20" loop of Stihl chain. I took a few pictures of it with my phone and will post them shortly. Please tell me what I am doing wrong or right. Thanks ahead of time for your help. I am sure I have a long ways to go but tell me if I am on the right track. I plan on using this chain on my Tree monkeyed 064 and 440 and my ECsaws 460, if it works well I am going to make another chain for my Stump broke Dolkita. Pictures coming shortly.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)




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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

Stand by I am having technical dificulties.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

View attachment 250727


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

You will never compete using a round grinder against those square ground race chains. Sorry, but that's just the facts of the design limitations. Square chain is just more efficient.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)




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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> You will never compete using a round grinder against those square ground race chains. Sorry, but that's just the facts of the design limitations. Square chain is just more efficient.



I did know that the square ground is better but untill I learn to grind them I am stuck with round ground. Can I make my round ground better by doing what im doing or am I wasting my time and chain?


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## sarahdodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)




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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

I have been told to grind the leading edge of the raker and get rid of the big hump that sticks out in front of it. I also was told to grind the back side of the cutter and to more or less sharpen the back side. This is what I have done so far. I am going to file down the gullet some tommorrow.


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## fastLeo151 (Aug 30, 2012)

sarahdodgegeek said:


>



Are you planning on doing any hand filing work?


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

Yes, I just used the grinder to getme started. Then I got soar sitting at it and came in, and I figured I would start this thread and ask for Ideas.


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

This is my best effort to date. It's a .325 chain that I run on my 346. It is square ground with a Silvey Razor Sharp. There's MUCH more that can be done to one. There is no cutter thinning done to this chain, no filing, and no stoning. I'm working on a new chain now, but it's in a gazillion pieces!


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## discounthunter (Aug 30, 2012)

i dont do anythingclose to a race chain,but it looks like just a regular sharpened chain.


the op's chain not bsnelling's


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## fastLeo151 (Aug 30, 2012)

I would think that the more acute you get the cutter the better. How are you planning to set your raker height.


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## fastLeo151 (Aug 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> This is my best effort to date. It's a .325 chain that I run on my 346. It is square ground with a Silvey Razor Sharp. There's MUCH more that can be done to one. There is no cutter thinning done to this chain, no filing, and no stoning.



There is many hours in that chain, it looks like it was completely tore down.


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

fastLeo151 said:


> There is many hours in that chain, it looks like it was completely tore down.



NO disassembly or machining on this one. The one I have in the works is getting the full treatment. It's being built for my 390XP pipe saw. But, this gives a crude idea of what goes into a GTG chain.


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## nmurph (Aug 30, 2012)

Here's a good place to start-

http://www.arboristsite.com/chain-sharpening/60282.htm


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## fastLeo151 (Aug 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> NO disassembly or machining on this one. The one I have in the works is getting the full treatment. It's being built for my 390XP pipe saw. But, this gives a crude idea of what goes into a GTG chain.



I will keep an eye out for that video!


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## Mastermind (Aug 30, 2012)

opcorn:


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

I figure I would take the rakers down some more, will be used in soft wood. As far as my chain just looking like a sharpened chain, cant you see how much I have removed from the back side of the cutter and front of the raker. Quite a bit of material removed. I dont have a silvey and dont have access to one, I am just working with what I got. I am just looking for pointers here.


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

Go too low with the rakers, and you'll make it jumpy, ruining a good chain. A good chain is smooth in the cut and self feeds itself, requiring very little if any pressure. I like to grind my chains, then touch them up with a file in a Granburg File-N-Joint. I then use an Oregon progressive depth guage. I find that the File-O-Plate sets my rakers too deep, at least on Stihl RSC chain.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> NO disassembly or machining on this one. The one I have in the works is getting the full treatment. It's being built for my 390XP pipe saw. But, this gives a crude idea of what goes into a GTG chain.



I have only been to a few gtg's and I havent seen a race chain as ground away as that. However, I am basically a newbie here. I am not planning on going pro here just want to have fun at the gtgs with some of the great people I have met here on AS.


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

Trust me, that's not a pro chain, lol. The guys with real chains are laughing at me right now Actually, I probably shouldn't have gone that far, but they don't leave a whole lot. Here are a few things you are after.


Razor sharp, however you attain that
Consistency from tooth to tooth, raker to raker
Lots of room for chips
A cleaned out kurf for chip removal
Rakers set so that it loads the saw good, but isn't grabby

I'm sure there are plenty more, but that'll help get you going.


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## blsnelling (Aug 30, 2012)

One way to put that extra sharp edge on your chain is to put it on the saw backwards and dress it with a stone while the chain spins. But, I didn't just tell you to do that, lol. I've actually never done it either.


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## awspence (Aug 30, 2012)

here is a PDF that Oregon put out with some really basic facts/ideas about race chain mods. not sure if youve seen this, but if not there are a few good bits in there.

http://www.madsens1.com/PDF/RacingTechfacts_93099.pdf


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for the helpfull info so far.


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## Justsaws (Aug 30, 2012)

The photos of the round ground chain look as the the grinder wheel needs to be profiled and not lowered so far into the tie straps. The top plate of the chain needs to have the radius of the circle cut along it's lead edge. Hollow ground, as it looks right now the top plate is being sharpened by the flat side of the grinding wheel.

That chain will cut but it will be slower than a round ground with a radiused top plate edge.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> The photos of the round ground chain look as the the grinder wheel needs to be profiled and not lowered so far into the tie straps. The top plate of the chain needs to have the radius of the circle cut along it's lead edge. Hollow ground, as it looks right now the top plate is being sharpened by the flat side of the grinding wheel.
> 
> That chain will cut but it will be slower than a round ground with a radiused top plate edge.



I should be able to fix that with a hand file. I will try to get to it tommorrow and keep up on this thread. Some interesting stuff.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 30, 2012)

One other question, I have seen people using a granberg file guide for round ground chain does anyone make a guide/jig for square ground chain.


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## TK (Aug 30, 2012)

This is an in-progress chain I've been working on. These things take forever to do this! And as you can see there's a long way to go. But rather than try to do it all at once, I've made a change and tested it, made a change and tested it...... Keep notes on what works and what doesn't so 5 chains down the road you've got notes as to what works, what doesn't, and you'll be able to make theories on what you want to try next..... I'd recommend only using the grinder to even things up and get you started, not to do your modifications. I tried that, it didn't seem to produce results as good right from the start. 

Here's a picture from a while back, with clearly a long way to go. I've made changes since then.


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## lmbrman (Aug 30, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> The photos of the round ground chain look as the the grinder wheel needs to be profiled and not lowered so far into the tie straps. The top plate of the chain needs to have the radius of the circle cut along it's lead edge. Hollow ground, as it looks right now the top plate is being sharpened by the flat side of the grinding wheel.
> 
> That chain will cut but it will be slower than a round ground with a radiused top plate edge.



is there a radius on the top plate when you square grind?


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## Mastermind (Aug 30, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> is there a radius on the top plate when you square grind?



No, but the angle is much sharper than it is when the flat side of the wheel on a round ground setup makes it.


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## young (Aug 30, 2012)

read and then read some more. great stuff.

Guide Bar & Saw Chain Menu

http://www.madsens1.com/PDF/RacingTechfacts_93099.pdf


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## lmbrman (Aug 30, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> No, but the angle is much sharper than it is when the flat side of the wheel on a round ground setup makes it.



I thought that angle could be adjusted?

just askin, no expert for sure


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## HELSEL (Aug 30, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> One way to put that extra sharp edge on your chain is to put it on the saw backwards and dress it with a stone while the chain spins. But, I didn't just tell you to do that, lol. I've actually never done it either.



Would you stone just the top of the
chain? Or would you stone the sides
too?


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## Justsaws (Aug 30, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> is there a radius on the top plate when you square grind?



Nope, just two nice bevels meeting up in a tight corner.


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## Mastermind (Aug 31, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> I thought that angle could be adjusted?
> 
> just askin, no expert for sure



It can be adjusted but then the "hook" is too great. 



HELSEL said:


> Would you stone just the top of the
> chain? Or would you stone the sides
> too?



How's it hanging Ricky??????

You should give me a call bro.


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## lmbrman (Aug 31, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It can be adjusted but then the "hook" is too great.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## lmbrman (Aug 31, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> Nope, just two nice bevels meeting up in a tight corner.



so,, would you say the shape of the stone is critical?


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

I've got some pictures on here of some chains I ground in some threads. I'll get some pictures when i get to the room and on the computer instead of tapatalk. 

Square ground is the way to go. I have seen a good time decrease from round to square.


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## Justsaws (Aug 31, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> so,, would you say the shape of the stone is critical?



If the profile is wrong as the wheel passes by the cutter the wrong parts get sharpened in the wrong places. 

ADG would be better off using a 7/32" file and hogging out the cutter while getting way into the tie straps then pursueing the current grinder set up. After he has hogged it out with that file he could go back in and actually put the edge on with a 13/64 file to create the fine wire edge of the hollow ground top plate. 

Edge will not last long but it be faster then were the chain is now. Keep going on the back of the cutter and take the depth gauge down from inside the gullet.

ADG has a round grinder and round files, he has also asked about a filing guide for square filing.

Other than the ATop guide I am unaware of any filing guide for square filing. No comment on the ATop.


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## bcorradi (Aug 31, 2012)

If it was me and u wanted to making a really good race chain...I'd see if u could con cliff helsel into selling one of his. From everyone I've talked to he builds about the meanest racing chain. You have to acknowledge that they have sometimes upwards of 40 hours into a single chain...so its not something your going to hit with your square/round grinder and swipe it a couple of times with your file and your be able to compete. 

There are a ton of variables into making competition race chains including all of the variables included in the wood your going to be racing in.


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## Mastermind (Aug 31, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> If the profile is wrong as the wheel passes by the cutter the wrong parts get sharpened in the wrong places.
> 
> ADG would be better off using a 7/32" file and hogging out the cutter while getting way into the tie straps then pursueing the current grinder set up. After he has hogged it out with that file he could go back in and actually put the edge on with a 13/64 file to create the fine wire edge of the hollow ground top plate.
> 
> ...



This will hold a square file.....


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## Justsaws (Aug 31, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> This will hold a square file.....



I have read about people using those and if it is working for them that is good. I have never seen it used in such a way or seen the results over the length of chain. I do not like those guides for sharpening round so I probably would not like them for square but I suppose it would be worth a try. 

Certainly could not be any worse than my in the woods square file touch ups. Take more extra chains, take more extra chains, take more extra chains, take more extra chains.....


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## LegDeLimber (Aug 31, 2012)

I have one of those clip on type file swingers.
If you are patient, use a *gentle* touch and a *fresh* file, 
it's actually pretty good for getting everything back to the same shape 
after those quick, freehand touch ups have begun to drift a little bit too uneven.

But I'm only speaking of a chain for "routine" stuff, Not a race rig.


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

There was a chain build that happened a couple months back. The winning chain was ground on a razor sharp II. A nice hand filed chain is probably better but for the time in it a machine works good.


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## CTYank (Aug 31, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Go too low with the rakers, and you'll make it jumpy, ruining a good chain. A good chain is smooth in the cut and self feeds itself, requiring very little if any pressure. I like to grind my chains, then touch them up with a file in a Granburg File-N-Joint. I then use an Oregon progressive depth guage. I find that the File-O-Plate sets my rakers too deep, at least on Stihl RSC chain.



I've found that the File-N-Joint works great, very precisely, with setting the depth gauges. Just swap the round file for a fine flat file. Set crosswise angle to 0 deg. Find the cutter height with the flat file, then crank down the height setting .025-.030" below, or whatever works best for you. Kiss 'em all. Round the gauges' fronts a/r. Done in no time.

Others searching info might search for "Granberg." HTH


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## Tzed250 (Aug 31, 2012)

Bailey's - 20" Oregon Chainsaw Chain Loop

Bailey's - Save Edge Double Beveled Chisel File - Each

Buy these two items and you will be ahead of anything you can do with a round grinder or round file. Correctly filed square chisel is nearly equal to a woods port.


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

All the square chain off the reel is faster than off the reel round. I haven't found any off the reel that's faster than hand filed round or ground square. I grind all brand new chain on my razor sharp before i use it.


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## LegDeLimber (Aug 31, 2012)

Went out and got some quick snaps of my last run chain, saw's been sitting for a while.
It's round file work, but I still like my teeth aggressive.
edges aren't beat over or rocked, just dust and critter hair and shaky hands make it look that way.


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## komatsuvarna (Aug 31, 2012)

Lightly stoning has helped every chain I've tried it on, round or square.:msp_thumbup:


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## Toad22t (Aug 31, 2012)

:msp_confused::confused
Ok what is the stihl equivalent for the oregon chain specified? I have always used the the yellow stihl chains and have just taken them over to my buddies to get them sharpened on his oregon 511 grinder. Also what file guides do you guys use for your round and square chains. I saw i think it was mastermind put a pic up of a guide that holds a square file. Please don't stone me on this. They may be stupid questions but just trying to learn. Also its been a long day and extremely long week for me so plz bare with me.


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## Tzed250 (Aug 31, 2012)

Off the real RS is OK. I haven't seen any Oregon off the real that was good for anything other than cutting room temp butter.


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

I don't like any new off the roll chain. I like to grind it and clean the gullet out to the extreme. Then hit the rakers a swipe or two and then its ready for using.

You can get a much faster cutting chain and still get 3-4 tanks of cutting done before it needs touched up.


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## Tzed250 (Aug 31, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I don't like any new off the roll chain. I like to grind it and clean the gullet out to the extreme. Then hit the rakers a swipe or two and then its ready for using.
> 
> You can get a much faster cutting chain and still get 3-4 tanks of cutting done before it needs touched up.



I agree. I have found the depth gauges to be especially inconsistent on both brands.


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## blsnelling (Aug 31, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> Would you stone just the top of the
> chain? Or would you stone the sides
> too?



How about you tell us I've never done it, but I think only the side gets stoned.


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## HELSEL (Aug 31, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> How about you tell us I've never done it, but I think only the side gets stoned.



Brad I was just joking. By stoning 
both the top and the sides before 
filing makes all the teeth the exact 
same height and width.


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## Justsaws (Aug 31, 2012)

Toad22t said:


> :msp_confused::confused
> Ok what is the stihl equivalent for the oregon chain specified?
> 
> *People like what people like. I like Oregon or Stihl, which ever is the best deal of the day.*
> ...



The guide that is in the photo is for round files but some have used it with one of the types of square files. I have not but have that guide and that type of file so I suppose it is time to give it a try.


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## Justsaws (Aug 31, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> Bailey's - 20" Oregon Chainsaw Chain Loop
> 
> Bailey's - Save Edge Double Beveled Chisel File - Each
> 
> Buy these two items and you will be ahead of anything you can do with a round grinder or round file. Correctly filed square chisel is nearly equal to a woods port.



ADG if you want to spend some money this will be faster and not just a little bit faster. The SE files are nice.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Aug 31, 2012)

This is not a racechain by any means, but it cuts good enough for the last gtg we had. 

I can not square file free handed for crap so I cheat using a ATOP guide. All I did is hit the cutters and rakers. Didnt feel the need to hit the back of cutters etc on a gtg chain.


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

Here's a filed picture 







play chain






work chain






ground play chain


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 31, 2012)

I gotta get a square ground chain and play with it.


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## Trx250r180 (Aug 31, 2012)

square is like adding 10cc to your saw


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## J.W Younger (Aug 31, 2012)

Andy you may wanna try a goofy file, much more forgiving than a double bevel or 6 sided.
You lose the hollow grind the round file or grinder gives you but have a sharper working corner. And it gives you practice on filing outside in and 2 of the 3 angles used for square filing.
Bailey's has em.


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## craig71 (Aug 31, 2012)

Nice loooking chains, I would love to see a video of one of these chains being sharpened.


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## mdavlee (Aug 31, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I gotta get a square ground chain and play with it.



If you want one to try what dl you need? I might have an extra hanging up.


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## madhatte (Aug 31, 2012)

Here's what it looks like to chuck up a triangle file in a File-N-Joint:











Works pretty good but you gotta flip the saw over to get the lefthand cutters; otherwise, the angles don't line up and parts of the jig get in each others' way.


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## andydodgegeek (Aug 31, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> If you want one to try what dl you need? I might have an extra hanging up.



I am running a 20 and 24" bar on my Stihls 72 and 84dl.


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## Arrowhead (Aug 31, 2012)




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## madhatte (Aug 31, 2012)

*Note: these are NOT my chains! These belong to a hotsaw guy from coastal Oregon.* You know who you are!

Up first: 1/2" pitch Stihl square chisel chain (I forget the number) that is extra-tall. Apparently these were never sold in the US. I have no idea where one could find such a thing. I'm guessing Cahoon knows something about this:






Up next: same builder, same pitch, different chain:


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## mdavlee (Sep 1, 2012)

I bet that last chain cuts good. The 1/2" chain was used on a bike saw?

Andy I'll have my dad look around and see what's left at the house. I'm sure i have a 24" loop or 3. It might take a week or so to see if they're sharp or have some cutting time on it.


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## madhatte (Sep 1, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I bet that last chain cuts good. The 1/2" chain was used on a bike saw?



Yep. That's me running the bikesaw in the pic below. The same coastal Oregon hotsaw guy built and owns the saw, which is powered by a 500cc Honda bike engine, as I recall. That's a 32" Douglas-Fir log that it dropped through in what seemed like 5 seconds or so in my unskilled hands, wearing a "practice" chain. It's done better, by far, in other hands, wearing better chains.


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## mdavlee (Sep 1, 2012)

I've wanted to run a bike saw like that.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 1, 2012)

I just got in from the shop, filing some more on that same round ground chain in my firt posts. I didnt get a chance to run it on a saw yet. I also didnt take pics of it tonight. I will try to get some pics and cuts tommorrow. I have been busy cleaning and getting ready for my GTG on sept 22. I think I will run one of my other round ground chains over the grinder and do a few timed cuts and then try out this chain I have been grinding and filing on in the same piece of wood. I will use my Tree monkeyed Stihl 440. I am going to take the pontoon out in the morning for several hours but I will play with the saws when I get home. Thanks for all of the suggestions and links to reading material. I definately dont know much about chains, but we all start somewhere.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

I am thinking I should just do it, I am going to order me a couple loops of square ground. My question is would you recomend full comp or semi skip. Thinking about a 24" 84dl bar. Also being new to these which file would be easier for me to learn with? There are 3 files listed on Baileys website for square ground chains, goofy, 3 corner, and double beveled. So what should I get? Thanks.


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## young (Sep 2, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am thinking I should just do it, I am going to order me a couple loops of square ground. My question is would you recomend full comp or semi skip. Thinking about a 24" 84dl bar. Also being new to these which file would be easier for me to learn with? There are 3 files listed on Baileys website for square ground chains, goofy, 3 corner, and double beveled. So what should I get? Thanks.



get full. its going to be faster. more cutters.

and i like 3 corner and double beveled. most like double beveled.


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2012)

I like double bevel the best. I use full comp for 28" and down. I'll dig around and see if I've got a 24 full comp loop to send you. I know I've got a skip in 24" there.


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## Justsaws (Sep 2, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am thinking I should just do it, I am going to order me a couple loops of square ground. My question is would you recomend full comp or semi skip. Thinking about a 24" 84dl bar. Also being new to these which file would be easier for me to learn with? There are 3 files listed on Baileys website for square ground chains, goofy, 3 corner, and double beveled. So what should I get? Thanks.



Full comp, the whole reason for square filing is it pulls easier so might as well go full comp.

Goofy file is probably the easiest as there is only four working sides to the file and it is big and easy to see. However while it can produce a square corner the side plate is not straight. I suppose one could say that it is not actually square filing. Works though and pretty good.

The 3 corner is the one that fits in the Granberd jigs so if that interests you that is what you want. It has 6 working edges and they are thin and in my opinion harder to see. However that is the file that I learned with and it was not all that hard. Biggest drawback for me was the thickness of the file tends to dig hard into the tie straps of the chain for the angles that I like to use on work chains.

The double bevel also has 6 working edges but two are nice and wide and easy to see. It also has a thinner profile than the 3 corner so when I use it I tend not to get into the straps as much. 

If I was showing someone how to do it I would use the double bevel.

Get a good light, a magnifying glass, and truckload of patience. It is worth it.

Since we are spending your money I would recommend 2 loops of chain, the first one is practice. Two files if you work over a concrete floor and drop things, or are hammer fisted like myself. Biggest issue I had was limiting the pressure on the file, still struggle with the crossover for both sides of the chain. One side always looks better than the other over the length of the chain.

Get a file handle if you do not have one.


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## tree monkey (Sep 2, 2012)

you should beable to make a good gtg chain round filed.
try a 3/16 file, give it more hook, thin the inside of the tooth with a 1/8 file.
you want the chips to go through/ under the tooth. make as mutch room as you can without making the tooth to weak.
take about 1/3 of the tooth off front and back, leaving 1/3 of the tooth.
file the front of the racker straight up.leave the racker about 1/8 long 
you want the recker to push chips forward, not over the racker
top of racker should angle upword tords the cutter with a slight round leading edge, just so it's not sharp
adjust racker hight to the power of the saw.
if you thin the tooth to mutch it can/will break.

have fun


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## parrisw (Sep 2, 2012)

You could start with a goofy file, so far that's what I've done, they work well, and are a little more forgiving for newbs like me.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies, I was tired and went to bed. I will post some pics later today of how my round chain is progressing. As soon as I can convince Sarah that I NEED to spend X amount of dollars on new chains and files I will be making an order.


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## super3 (Sep 2, 2012)

Skip the goofy file and get the double bevel. You won't learn till you practice,practice,practice. Same as getting round filing down, it takes time.

Get a few chains, you are going to #### the first one up. 

My first looked like hell but still cut faster than round.


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## benp (Sep 2, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Thanks for all the replies, I was tired and went to bed. I will post some pics later today of how my round chain is progressing. *As soon as I can convince Sarah* that I NEED to spend X amount of dollars on new chains and files I will be making an order.



Might I suggest something along these lines.







Before anyone laughs, dont knock it before you try it.:msp_thumbup:

I am looking forward to seeing your success with the chains Andy. This is pretty cool.:msp_thumbup:


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## dozerdan (Sep 2, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Yep. That's me running the bikesaw in the pic below. The same coastal Oregon hotsaw guy built and owns the saw, which is powered by a 500cc Honda bike engine, as I recall. That's a 32" Douglas-Fir log that it dropped through in what seemed like 5 seconds or so in my unskilled hands, wearing a "practice" chain. It's done better, by far, in other hands, wearing better chains.



I like the falcon. How old is that photo?

Later
Dan


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## J.W Younger (Sep 2, 2012)

super3 said:


> Skip the goofy file and get the double bevel. You won't learn till you practice,practice,practice. Same as getting round filing down, it takes time.
> 
> Get a few chains, you are going to #### the first one up.
> 
> My first looked like hell but still cut faster than round.


I've used a goofy for touch ups especially for the 1st year. The thing is, the round edge cut a different groove in the side plate and makes the double bevel grabby and hard to control when I tried to get a good square corner back on it.
Still a goofy is handy to have, in a pinch i have used em on semi and low profiles and for narrowing rakers.


----------



## Freakingstang (Sep 2, 2012)

if you try to make used round chain into square, make sure you clean it first so you don't bugur up your files


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## super3 (Sep 2, 2012)

I agree a goofy has it's place. 


He is going to buy a square ground chain, nothing better than to get the file that matches that profile.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 2, 2012)

super3 said:


> I agree a goofy has it's place.
> 
> 
> He is going to buy a square ground chain, nothing better than to get the file that matches that profile.


Yep, and the save edge fits pretty good on the CL. Don't know bout the square stihl but the dealer can can order one that should. prob have to order the chain too unless yer out west.


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## computeruser (Sep 2, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> This is my best effort to date. It's a .325 chain that I run on my 346. It is square ground with a Silvey Razor Sharp. There's MUCH more that can be done to one. There is no cutter thinning done to this chain, no filing, and no stoning. I'm working on a new chain now, but it's in a gazillion pieces!



Not bad. Not sure you need to dish out the tie straps quite that much, though. I was given some good race chain from Big Dave about five years back. That stuff was fast, and while the top and side of the tie straps were clearanced, they were not dished out. 

For OP: I did find that cleaning up the back of the cutter - grinding it away at about a 45* angle - sped up sharp round-ground pretty well, all other things equal. Likewise, starting from a well-used chain with a shorter cutter helped, also. And in the interest of saving time on filing, keep your race chains to 16" max. 20" is unnecessary for cutting cants, and just means more cutters to deal with.


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## parrisw (Sep 2, 2012)

Freakingstang said:


> if you try to make used round chain into square, make sure you clean it first so you don't bugur up your files



Hey Steve how's things, good to see ya around. And yes that's solid advice. I've never bought square chain, I've just converted round filed.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 2, 2012)

If I knew you would only use my chain in a clean cant I could loan my 72dl chain in my pic. It has been loaned and used in 2 stock saw races at real shows and has took 1st both times on a stock 3120 in unlimited class. 

Be warned it is not the fastest chain out there. In a chain build it was only 4th fastest.


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## procarbine2k1 (Sep 2, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> If I knew you would only use my chain in a clean cant I could loan my 72dl chain in my pic. It has been loaned and used in 2 stock saw races at real shows and has took 1st both times on a stock 3120 in unlimited class.
> 
> Be warned it is not the fastest chain out there. In a chain build it was only 4th fastest.



If he doesnt take you up on it, I would be interested. I have some fence posts to rip... But dont worry, they are clean and I dont think there are any nails in them!


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 2, 2012)

procarbine2k1 said:


> If he doesnt take you up on it, I would be interested. I have some fence posts to rip... But dont worry, they are clean and I dont think there are any nails in them!



Run on over. 

I got a 3ci chain I was making and think I am going to use it in some nasty black walnut. :msp_tongue: Just got ticked after hitting 3 cutters after I did them all and thought to myself why am I even doing this. :msp_rolleyes:


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

I didn't get to run my chain yet again. I was out on the pontoon all day. Me my wife and brother, caught a lot if fish. Probably 30+ northerns, a few bass, and 1 walleye. Anyways I did snag a few photos of my chain and will attempt to post them, this tapatalk is new to me


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## J.W Younger (Sep 2, 2012)

Oh no, da dreaded red x...


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

View attachment 251200


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

Sorry, Andy's tapatalk is all boogered up for some reason... workin on gettin em to my phone to post... stand by. :msp_unsure:


----------



## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)




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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

Sorry bout the duplicate... Here's the 3rd pic


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

We are experiencing technical dificulties....The last post had two of the same picture, I am not that uniform in my filing. I am not having much luck with this tapatalk on my phone. I neep to learn to do square ground and tapatalk.


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2012)

I would give the cutter more hook. Square isn't too bad to learn if you take the time to learn and work at it.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I would give the cutter more hook. Square isn't too bad to learn if you take the time to learn and work at it.



I gave each tooth 10 strokes with a 7/32 file. Will I get more hook with a 13/64?


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 2, 2012)

I did read Tree monkeys post, he said to use a 3/16 file to get more hook. Maybe I will give that a try tommorrow. I will make a few timed cuts with it as is and see what happens. I want to get some smaller files so I can thin the chain from under the top and side plates. Would I want to use a round file up in there or a flat file?


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## mdavlee (Sep 2, 2012)

I clean the gullets with a 3/16" since its the smallest files i had laying around.


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## madhatte (Sep 2, 2012)

dozerdan said:


> I like the falcon. How old is that photo?
> 
> Later
> Dan



June 2011.

Also, that's not a Falcon; it's a Ranchero. You may have seen it around these parts before...


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## Justsaws (Sep 3, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I gave each tooth 10 strokes with a 7/32 file. Will I get more hook with a 13/64?



Yes, the key will be to keep it at the right height in the cutter. Your pictures when compared to the photos of the square profiles should give you a fairly clear idea where the speed is in square versus round shape. The cutting edges of the round are fat and shallow that equals drag but also allows then to take a beating as the cutting edge is well supprted. Square is thin and steep, best I can come up with at 4am.

Night and day difference between your first photos of the ground cutters and what you did with the file, keep on filing, looks much better already.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

*Checking in with a progress report...*

I was just out video'ing Andy to compare the stock vs his 1st draft of the race chain. Here are the times from the stopwatch, averaging 2 records. 

Stock chain Treemonkey'd 440: 3.3s
Race chain Treemonkey'd 440: 2.5s
Stock chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.8s
Race chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.2s

Noticeable difference, as I'm sure you'll be able to see by the videos in the next couple of posts...


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

*Treemonkey'd 440 with stock chain for baseline*

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube[video=youtube;ByFVMb10Uh8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ByFVMb10Uh8[/video]


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

*Treemonkey'd 440 with 1st draft race chain*

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;tXirjNuqm8g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tXirjNuqm8g[/video]


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 3, 2012)

It looks like andy is on to something. #'s don't lie.:msp_thumbup:


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

*Treemonkey'd 064 with stock chain for baseline*

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;dhZq1YcKmeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dhZq1YcKmeU[/video]


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

*Treemonkey'd 064 with 1st draft race chain*

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;TwqwF8_mBQE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TwqwF8_mBQE[/video]


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## parrisw (Sep 3, 2012)

One can definitely see the difference!!


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## mdavlee (Sep 3, 2012)

Looking good.  Now you need a loop of square to see how it compares.


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## Fedaburger (Sep 3, 2012)

Looking like a race saw!! Rank:msp_thumbup:


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## Edge & Engine (Sep 3, 2012)

Here's a chain I've been working on. It was originally round ground, I've square filed it once but it needs some more filing. The .325 chain makes it more difficult to get the right angle without some hogging out of the gullet and tie strap. I'm using irregular hexagon files. This chain, as-is, is significantly faster than stock round chain, I don't have numbers yet. I run it on a 44cc, and it's fast


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## J.W Younger (Sep 3, 2012)

What I have problems with on .325 is not so much getting into the tie straps as much as it is the D/L. Not that the tie strap don't get rubbed on too, just that the drive link can't be filed on much without weaking it big time. About half life is where it gets close, when the cutter is longer or shorter you have more wiggle room.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Looking good.  Now you need a loop of square to see how it compares.



(workin on it:cool2


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## watsonr (Sep 3, 2012)

use the smaller of the two and come down into the tooth a little deeper, it looks like you filing to high up. The gullet looks good, the raker needs to be thinner and shorter in front to back length

Andy, all that work would be a shame to see someone beat you with an average square chain. You should try some!


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

I am still wondering what kind of file to use to get up under cutter to thin top and side. I read Tree monkeys post saying to use an 1/8th inch file, I am assuming he is referring to a round file but I dont know for sure. I dont have a file that small. Also wondering exactly what people are doing to thin their rivets. I read Brad Snelling sayin putting your chain on backwards and spinning it with the saw and stoning it...even backwards it sounds deadly to me. Just asking for other options. I though I could take my 90degree grinder with a 2" abrasive disc and just hit each one a bit, Hows that sound? So far I am excited to see it is cutting faster than stock and I am anxious to do more to it...Its kind of fun.


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## watsonr (Sep 3, 2012)

he's using a flat file to thin the medal so its not to thick, look at the tooth from the front, not the side.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 3, 2012)

I bit the bullet today...I ordered a couple of square ground oregon chains and some save edge files from Baileys. I figure why not take advantage of the $4.99 shipping promo they have going on. I am not giving up on my round ground, I still will have to figure out how to sharpen this square stuff. I am having a GTG at my house on Sept. 22, maybe I can get one of the fellas that knows how to sharpen these things give me and others some edjamakaytion on them, (Tree monkey, Grandpa tractor).


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## J.W Younger (Sep 3, 2012)

Goofy for thining what i've been usin.


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## Justsaws (Sep 3, 2012)

ADG, here is an easy to make round filed cutter. Use the 5/32" round file like a square file in two steps.

1. On the lower half of the side plate get the file positioned so the handle is as close to the chain as possible and as low next to straps as possible take a couple of passes.

2. Using a similar technique to square filing put the file into the corner at an angle that hits the tie straps and as you are pushing the file forward, twist it out past the length of the top plate. The goal is a thin working edge in the corner and a thin side and top plate.

The cutter in the photo was a poorly shaped freshly round ground beater chain.

4 passes in each step with the 5/16" round file and it is into shape and the cutter in the photo is a mild shape. That is maybe a couple minutes worth of effort, takes me longer to look at the cutter than it does to make the edge. The cutter is fast, but it will not last. If you can find some nice 1/8" files even better. It sounds way harder than it is and it produces a fast chain, it is as close to square as I can get a chain without a square file.

Enjoy the new square chains and files. Truely can make using a saw more enjoyable.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

As soon as my square chain arrives I will run it on the same saw in the same poplar can't and post some times. I will try to reshape my raker and thin my cutter and retime on my round ground.


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## Metals406 (Sep 4, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> As soon as my square chain arrives I will run it on the same saw in the same poplar can't and post some times. I will try to reshape my raker and thin my cutter and retime on my round ground.



Out of the box square is pretty slow Andy. . . You'll want to file it.

As far as not giving up on round -- wait until you run square for a while. :msp_wink:


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> Out of the box square is pretty slow Andy. . . You'll want to file it.
> 
> As far as not giving up on round -- wait until you run square for a while. :msp_wink:



I'm looking forward to trying it out. I hope I can figure out the filing of it, heard a lot of people say its difficult. I am not afraid, I will give it my best.


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## Metals406 (Sep 4, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I'm looking forward to trying it out. I hope I can figure out the filing of it, heard a lot of people say its difficult. I am not afraid, I will give it my best.



I'm pards with an old mossback logger that cut his puppy teeth on square, and didn't pick up a round file until many years later.

It's not that it's 'hard' to do, it's just different angles than you are used to, and you have to watch the corner really close so you don't cut in a beak.

I messed up a few chains back when I first tried it, probably 14 years ago now. That was with the old timer at the Husky shop showing me the basics.


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## hillwilliam (Sep 4, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> Out of the box square is pretty slow Andy. . . You'll want to file it.
> 
> As far as not giving up on round -- wait until you run square for a while. :msp_wink:




You've been getting good advice, including getting chisel-ground chain and a file. If you can put in the time, I'd suggest learning to chisel file your work chains (including new ones, as Metals said), and it will teach you a lot about filing a race chain. I've been chisel filing all my chains for over 30 yrs., and I'm still learning. When someone wants me to teach him how, I tell him it's like learning a different language; I'm pretty fluent in English, my first language, pero esto es una cosa muy diferente . . .


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## madhatte (Sep 4, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> ADG, here is an easy to make round filed cutter.



This is a good trick for transitioning from round to square. You might try a "goofy" file as well -- it approximates a square grind more closely and is easier to hold. 



Metals406 said:


> Out of the box square is pretty slow Andy. . . You'll want to file it



Too true. Even if all you do is touch up the rakers, you'll see a difference.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

When I arrived home from work today, I noticed Andy's car was parked outside of the garage, his lunch pail tossed on the truck, some work he brought home strewn on the sidewalk, and the door to the house still locked... Hmmm. What's this I hear coming from the garage? he's out there working on this race chain like a mad scientist!! :msp_scared:


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## mdavlee (Sep 4, 2012)

Here's a video I made of square filing. I just did a few cutters to show how I do it. 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZMuqKxwc60" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## Fedaburger (Sep 4, 2012)

Andy gonna be the go too chain guy that's for sure. Practice makes perfect but persistance leads to excellence. Keep up the good work I'm learning a lot about chains. My little 180 is scary fast as of yesterday. I had to put it down.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Before...




After...


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 4, 2012)

Lets see some timed cuts.. Looks promising.


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## Metals406 (Sep 4, 2012)

Andy, you can use a regular flat file to make that top plate better, you just have to be careful with the side plate.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

*Treemonkey'd 440 round 2*



sarahdodgegeek said:


> I was just out video'ing Andy to compare the stock vs his 1st draft of the race chain. Here are the times from the stopwatch, averaging 2 records.
> 
> Stock chain Treemonkey'd 440: 3.3s
> Race chain Treemonkey'd 440: 2.5s
> ...



Here is a video of the chain on the 440 after tonights grinding session. I thinned the rakers and reshaped them, also thinned the top and side plates of the cutters. I did not get a chance to resharpen the tooth. I figured I would just run it again to see what I did. A slight bit better time, we got 2.4 versus the prior run at 2.5. Pretty minimal but like I said I didnt resharpen. I wasn't going to even post this but I am using this thread to keep notes for myself. Thanks to all for the advise and compliments/criticism. If I have time I plan on resharpening and running it again tommorrow.

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;veBL8OWxTCY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=veBL8OWxTCY[/video]


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Video quality not great, its getting dark out.


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## benp (Sep 4, 2012)

Cool seeing your progress!!!!!!:msp_thumbsup:


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> Andy, you can use a regular flat file to make that top plate better, you just have to be careful with the side plate.



Yeah I will have to try and clean it up in there. I used a dremel with a small grinding disc to get in there, it didnt turn out great but I tried it. I will go back in there with a flat file and see if I can smooth it out. I have to sharpen the cutter also.


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## madhatte (Sep 4, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a video I made of square filing. I just did a few cutters to show how I do it.
> 
> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZMuqKxwc60" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



I hand-file the exact same way, right down to the "wrist wiggle" before committing to a stroke. You definitely want to be sure the angles are right before ruining whatever you did with the last stroke. You can always take metal away, but you can't put it back!


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> ADG, here is an easy to make round filed cutter. Use the 5/32" round file like a square file in two steps.
> 
> 1. On the lower half of the side plate get the file positioned so the handle is as close to the chain as possible and as low next to straps as possible take a couple of passes.
> 
> ...




I am going to have to try this on another chain and see how it works. I will try sharpening a chain my regular way do a few timed cuts then I will see if I can do this technique and rerun some timed cuts. Kind of interesting playing with these chains.


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## Deets066 (Sep 4, 2012)

this thread couldn't have come at a better time, I just got my first loop of square ground and haven't run it yet. Maybe I'll have to do a little work to it before I put it on the saw! Thanks for all the great info!


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## mdavlee (Sep 4, 2012)

I have way more fun playing with different chain stuff than I have with porting saws. Me and maclaren did some cutting one day and a stock saw with a square chain was cutting withing a second of a ported saw with round ground. The videos are in a thread somewhere.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 4, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am going to have to try this on another chain and see how it works. I will try sharpening a chain my regular way do a few timed cuts then I will see if I can do this technique and rerun some timed cuts. Kind of interesting playing with these chains.


The saw does'nt pull into the dogs, that tells me its sharp.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 4, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> this thread couldn't have come at a better time, I just got my first loop of square ground and haven't run it yet. Maybe I'll have to do a little work to it before I put it on the saw! Thanks for all the great info!



We will be learning together my friend.


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## Justsaws (Sep 5, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am going to have to try this on another chain and see how it works. I will try sharpening a chain my regular way do a few timed cuts then I will see if I can do this technique and rerun some timed cuts. Kind of interesting playing with these chains.



Hey when you try that make sure to use a 5/32" or 4mm file instead of the 5/16" or freak'n huge mm file that I wrote in the original post. The smaller the diameter the better for that technique, the small diameter gets into the corner better.

I would correct the post but the edit option is gone, my mistake is recorded for all of history along with many others I am sure.

Chains are a whole big basket of fun all unto themselves, never seem to run out of ways to improve technique or new ideas to try. Keep on file'en.


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## hillwilliam (Sep 5, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a video I made of square filing. I just did a few cutters to show how I do it.
> 
> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JZMuqKxwc60" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



That's a great video showing how it's done! The only substantive thing I do differently is because I just couldn't get a feel for doing the left-hand cutters with my right hand. I'm right handed, but I forced myself learn to do them left-handed from the beginning. That was many years ago, and now I'm at least as good with my left.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 5, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> Hey when you try that make sure to use a 5/32" or 4mm file instead of the 5/16" or freak'n huge mm file that I wrote in the original post. The smaller the diameter the better for that technique, the small diameter gets into the corner better.
> 
> I would correct the post but the edit option is gone, my mistake is recorded for all of history along with many others I am sure.
> 
> Chains are a whole big basket of fun all unto themselves, never seem to run out of ways to improve technique or new ideas to try. Keep on file'en.



I have a 1/8th inch file, is that gonna work good? I hope to try this tonight but not sure if I'll have the time. I'll do something with a chain tonight even if its just a little bit.


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## tree monkey (Sep 5, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I have a 1/8th inch file, is that gonna work good? I hope to try this tonight but not sure if I'll have the time. I'll do something with a chain tonight even if its just a little bit.



yes, don't break it


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## Justsaws (Sep 5, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I have a 1/8th inch file, is that gonna work good? I hope to try this tonight but not sure if I'll have the time. I'll do something with a chain tonight even if its just a little bit.



That will work even better than the 5/32" as it is smaller. Like TM said, don't break it. Them little files bend and break when you look at them.

The video that mdavlee posted shows a good setup for the angles and hand positions. Modify from there to suit the purpose of the chain. File from the outside of the cutter in. Start in the working corner and sweep it across the top plate in one light pass, repeat until shaped and sharp.


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## mdavlee (Sep 5, 2012)

hillwilliam said:


> That's a great video showing how it's done! The only substantive thing I do differently is because I just couldn't get a feel for doing the left-hand cutters with my right hand. I'm right handed, but I forced myself learn to do them left-handed from the beginning. That was many years ago, and now I'm at least as good with my left.



That's the hard side for me but it was easier to take video of that side. The other side I was in the way of the camera lady.


----------



## BloodOnTheIce (Sep 5, 2012)

Here's a GTG chain I've made up about 3 hours into it. 

It started off life as a half worn out loop of 72lgx and ground it back and then hand filed it with
one of the triangular shaped files. 

Stil some work to be done on the rakers, setting the height and shaping them some more. 

It's not a something I'd use at a competition, but for cutting cookies at 
a GTG it works.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 5, 2012)

.325 work chain stihlView attachment 251581
.325 work chain oregonView attachment 251583
.325 may not be as fast as 3/8ths but its nice for light bucking and limbing


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 5, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> ADG, here is an easy to make round filed cutter. Use the 5/32" round file like a square file in two steps.
> 
> 1. On the lower half of the side plate get the file positioned so the handle is as close to the chain as possible and as low next to straps as possible take a couple of passes.
> 
> ...



I am assuming that I file from inside to outside correct.


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 5, 2012)

on square file outside in ,opposite of round


----------



## Justsaws (Sep 5, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am assuming that I file from inside to outside correct.



Outside of cutter to the inside. Watch your fingers.


----------



## andydodgegeek (Sep 5, 2012)

Well I cleaned under the top plate and behind the side plate with a a small flat file then took peoples advise and sharpened it with a 3/16 file. It gave it a bit more hook. I ran it on the 440 again and here is the video. I would have posted it earlier but I don't know how, had to wait for Sarah to get home. She will also be putting up a few photos of the chain in its latest state. Tell me what you think. I didn't get a chance to try sharpening another chain that other way with my 1/8" file but I will get to it soon. I was also thinking I should try running a comparison with an 8 tooth sprocket on the saw. Again what do you think? Thanks again for all the replies. Sarah timed the cuts and got 2.4, 2.5, and 2.7. Not getting any quicker, maybe its as good as it can be. 





LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;afNziCp_WCA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=afNziCp_WCA[/video]


----------



## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 5, 2012)

Here are the photos of the freshly sharpened chain...


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 5, 2012)

looking good .


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## Justsaws (Sep 5, 2012)

You will reach a point with traditional round filing where any improvements are hard to find and keeping them might prove tempermental.

In terms of what size sprocket to use best suggestion is to try both and see what works best for you.

In general a smaller saw times should improve at a greater rate as the chains cutting abilty improves compared to the larger saw. So on the smaller saw going to an 8 pin would probably not work very well where as the larger saw might actually see some improvements with the 8 pin. Rough idea but hopefully makes sense.

Will not know until you try.

One thing to keep in mind is that you want the good results to be repeatable and the cause of those results to be easily duplicated. Taking photos of the chain as you go and tracking and recording the results is an excellent way to make sure that you can re-create the best parts of the chain. You might do something that seemed like a really good idea until it hits the wood and all the sudden the times get slower, best to know what that was, to thin, to shallow, to high, to low, etc., etc., etc.,.....maybe a chain snaps where you got into the drive link shoulder to much. 

You last photos are a huge improvement and looks like you are well on your way.


----------



## tree monkey (Sep 6, 2012)

i would not thin or sharpen the racker. otherwise looks good


----------



## Trx250r180 (Sep 6, 2012)

looks good ,keep that thing out of the dirt :msp_wink:


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 6, 2012)

I won't get to play with any chains tonight, going over to my sisters for dinner. This weekend for sure.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 7, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> ADG, here is an easy to make round filed cutter. Use the 5/32" round file like a square file in two steps.
> 
> 1. On the lower half of the side plate get the file positioned so the handle is as close to the chain as possible and as low next to straps as possible take a couple of passes.
> 
> ...



I am just not quite getting step 2 here. The twisting out past the length of the top plate? I am just not quite figuring it out. Is there another way to explain this to me? I never said I was too brite.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 11, 2012)

I got my square ground chains in the mail today! It is too dark out to go and play with them but I am hoping tommorrow I will get a chance to do a few timed cuts in that same poplar cant. I will also be experimenting with 7 and 8 pin sprokets on the two saws I have been running my race chain on. If I didnt have to go to work all the damn time...I would have more time to play with saws.


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 11, 2012)

Don't you have a light.:msp_w00t:otstir:


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## hillwilliam (Sep 11, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I got my square ground chains in the mail today! It is too dark out to go and play with them but I am hoping tommorrow I will get a chance to do a few timed cuts in that same poplar cant. I will also be experimenting with 7 and 8 pin sprokets on the two saws I have been running my race chain on. If I didnt have to go to work all the damn time...I would have more time to play with saws.



A little sharpening on your new chisel-ground chain, and I'd be curious how it compares to your race chain.


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## Justsaws (Sep 12, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I am just not quite getting step 2 here. The twisting out past the length of the top plate? I am just not quite figuring it out. Is there another way to explain this to me? I never said I was too brite.



Starting with the 1/8" round file in the corner between the top and side plate.

The angle of the file being similiar to the angles use for square filing.

If you push the file through a full stroke the corner of the top plate will get sharpened but not the other 2/3s of the top plate because the 1/8" file is not wide enough to cover the whole top plate.

To solve that issue and to keep the top plate shaped and sharpened and relative to the corner and side plate the file needs to move across the top plate. Think of sharpenening the top plate like sharpening an axe head with a file. The file is not as wide as the axe head but a combined motion of pushing forward and across can sharpen the entire cutting surface.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 12, 2012)

hillwilliam said:


> A little sharpening on your new chisel-ground chain, and I'd be curious how it compares to your race chain.



I think I will give it a go straight out of the box first and then try my hand at hand filing on it. I bought a couple double beveled save edge files and one 6 sided file. I am going to use the double beveled. I will film my findings.


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## hillwilliam (Sep 12, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I think I will give it a go straight out of the box first and then try my hand at hand filing on it. I bought a couple double beveled save edge files and one 6 sided file. I am going to use the double beveled. I will film my findings.



Good plan. And don't forget about trying a goofy file, as someone else suggested. I used to just use them for worn-down chains and race chains, but they'll work on a new chain. I'm thinking of experimenting with only using goofy files, since I can't get Oberg double-bevel chisel files any more. That experiment won't happen for a while, though, 'cause I won't be using my saws much until next spring.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 12, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I think I will give it a go straight out of the box first and then try my hand at hand filing on it. I bought a couple double beveled save edge files and one 6 sided file. I am going to use the double beveled. I will film my findings.


That sounds like a good idea. Pay attention to the gullet area the top corner should be the 1st thing to contact the wood. If you get a lot of fine saw dust on the recoil or the clutch cover side, it may be from the bottom of the side plate cutting into the kerf. Clean this area with a small round file5/32th or 3/16ths.


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## mdavlee (Sep 12, 2012)

Cleaning the gullet on oregon square will produce chips almost double the length usually. Every now and then you get some of it that the gullet isn't really needing took down before use.


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## Justsaws (Sep 12, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> I got my square ground chains in the mail today! It is too dark out to go and play with them but I am hoping tommorrow I will get a chance to do a few timed cuts in that same poplar cant. I will also be experimenting with 7 and 8 pin sprokets on the two saws I have been running my race chain on. If I didnt have to go to work all the damn time...I would have more time to play with saws.



Time to put the round files away and enjoy the benifits of a sharp chain and hours and hours of learning how to keep it sharp. Congradulations on recieving a box full of chainsaw speed.


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## hillwilliam (Sep 12, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> Time to put the round files away and enjoy the benifits of a sharp chain and hours and hours of learning how to keep it sharp. Congradulations on recieving a box full of chainsaw speed.



Agreed! 

I do use a 7/32" file, or whatever is handy to hog out gullets. Some use a smaller round file - maybe I'm missing something.


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## benp (Sep 12, 2012)

Awesome Andy!!

I cant wait to see these in person!!!


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## garyischofield (Sep 12, 2012)

*trial and error*

I could opine for way to long on this subject.Messed around with chisel bit filing for a long time,work and competition.Search "Art Martin: will the real logger please stand up."The thread is old and long,but very informative/educational.Very talented man.He starts referring to race chain filing on page 11.THE REAL DEAL


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 12, 2012)

Dang it I did not get to try out my new chain yet. I had an mri done on my shoulder today and the put in contrast dye with a 3.5" needle sticking about 2.5" into my soulder socket. Too soar to run saw. Tommorrow. The suspense is killing me.


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## Justsaws (Sep 12, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Dang it I did not get to try out my new chain yet. I had an mri done on my shoulder today and the put in contrast dye with a 3.5" needle sticking about 2.5" into my soulder socket. Too soar to run saw. Tommorrow. The suspense is killing me.



Take the saw and chains with you next time, and smile a lot.


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## mdavlee (Sep 12, 2012)

hillwilliam said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I do use a 7/32" file, or whatever is handy to hog out gullets. Some use a smaller round file - maybe I'm missing something.



I like the smaller as it cleans down farther and doesn't hit the side plate.


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## parrisw (Sep 12, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I like the smaller as it cleans down farther and doesn't hit the side plate.



I've been using a 3/16" or a dremel.


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## Metals406 (Sep 12, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I've been using a 3/16" or a dremel.



5/32" is the catz ballz!


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## tree monkey (Sep 12, 2012)

when cleaning the gullet with a smaller round file, under cut the tooth a little. it makes square filling a lot easier


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## parrisw (Sep 12, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> 5/32" is the catz ballz!



Okee, how about whatever file you have around that is smaller then 7/32", that's why I used it!! LOL. I really don't think it matters at all, as long as its smaller then the file you use to sharpen with your all good. And your talking about a 1/32" difference here, splitting hairs!!!!!


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## parrisw (Sep 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> when cleaning the gullet with a smaller round file, under cut the tooth a little. it makes square filling a lot easier



Sounds like a good idea, but why does it make square filing easier? Less for the square file to file?


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## tree monkey (Sep 12, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Sounds like a good idea, but why does it make square filing easier? Less for the square file to file?



yes and you won't tend to roll the file back


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## parrisw (Sep 12, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> yes and you won't tend to roll the file back



Right makes sense. I have been doing that with my Goofy filing anyway. I don't bother with my round work chain though.


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Okee, how about whatever file you have around that is smaller then 7/32", that's why I used it!! LOL. I really don't think it matters at all, as long as its smaller then the file you use to sharpen with your all good. And your talking about a 1/32" difference here, splitting hairs!!!!!





parrisw said:


> Sounds like a good idea, but why does it make square filing easier? Less for the square file to file?



There's a huge difference from the 7/32" to 5/32" files. I want some 1/8" but it's been 6 months or longer since I ordered any saw stuff now and I forget to made a small order. 

The less side plate you're hitting makes filing easier and you won't chip the other corner of the file that you might need later.


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## parrisw (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> There's a huge difference from the 7/32" to 5/32" files. I want some 1/8" but it's been 6 months or longer since I ordered any saw stuff now and I forget to made a small order.
> 
> The less side plate you're hitting makes filing easier and you won't chip the other corner of the file that you might need later.



Sorry I guess you misunderstood my post. I don't use 7/32 for the gullets, either 5/32 or 3/16, whichever is handy, last night it so happens I used a 5/32.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 13, 2012)

You guys talking about square filing should get in on the chain build. 

Chains are to be tested on a ported 490 top end husky 50 crankcase saw 3ci Oct 15th. Clean square cants are used. Cant remember if 10x10 were going to be used for 3ci or not, maybe 8x8 not sure. 

Last chain build was on a stock husky 3120 with 9T. :msp_thumbup:


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## J.W Younger (Sep 13, 2012)

I picked up a cheap set of files atta big box store because it looked like a good price for handles(5bucks) for 4. The triangle file worked great for the floor of the gullets but its worn out now. Keepin the gullets clean and level is an OCD, one of the many I'm afflicted with.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 13, 2012)

i just use my oregon grinder for round to clean the gullets ,chains all done in about a minute or so


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

Here's a chain i finished today.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Here's a chain i finished today.


If thats a LG you've spent some time on the rakers, if its a lp you've either replaced the drive links with no hump types or spent even more time on it.
Good work and rep sent. 
I suppose the most likely is that its a CL factory square ...


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 13, 2012)

is that hand filed ?


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## watsonr (Sep 13, 2012)

Looks like CL factory chain, hand filed rakers and a RazurII for the grinder. Used a small round file for the gullets...

Nice chain Mike!


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

It was CL. Hand worked over rakers and ground cutters. I haven't had time yet to file one. I do have some oberg files I picked up off ebay to try out. :biggrin: I have another loop done up for the 3 cube chain build I'll try to get a picture of in a bit. I have 4 chains for another member here to work on too


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## watsonr (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> It was CL. Hand worked over rakers and ground cutters. I haven't had time yet to file one. I do have some oberg files I picked up off ebay to try out. :biggrin: I have another loop done up for the 3 cube chain build I'll try to get a picture of in a bit. I have 4 chains for another member here to work on too



Looks like we grind/file square chain just about the same my friend :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
Best investment I've made.... PERIOD!!


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> It was CL. Hand worked over rakers and ground cutters. I haven't had time yet to file one. I do have some oberg files I picked up off ebay to try out. :biggrin: I have another loop done up for the 3 cube chain build I'll try to get a picture of in a bit. I have 4 chains for another member here to work on too



Are the oberg files round or chiselbit?


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

Here is the 3 cube chain.






The oberg are chisel bit like a save edge double bevel.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Here is the 3 cube chain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which grinder did you say you have, or did you say. That looks like a fast cutting chain. Again I didn't get to run my square ground. RRRRRR. Worked late. How is a guy supposed to play when he has to work all day.


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## Metals406 (Sep 13, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Which grinder did you say you have, or did you say. That looks like a fast cutting chain. Again I didn't get to run my square ground. RRRRRR. Worked late. How is a guy supposed to play when he has to work all day.



Quit!


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 13, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Which grinder did you say you have, or did you say. That looks like a fast cutting chain. Again I didn't get to run my square ground. RRRRRR. Worked late. How is a guy supposed to play when he has to work all day.



Still no light. Shame Shame..:msp_tongue::msp_tongue:


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

I've got a razor sharp II. A sdm r and pro sharp will do the same easily.


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## Troy G (Sep 13, 2012)

I know nothing about race chain and not much more about square filing or grinding. How do the race chains ride with the rakers modified like in the pictures Mike just posted. Hope this is not a thread hi-jack.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 13, 2012)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Still no light. Shame Shame..:msp_tongue::msp_tongue:



I would go and cut with a flashlight but the video wouldnt turn out good. This weekend I will have no excuses! I am really anxious to try this stuff out.


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## watsonr (Sep 13, 2012)

the goal of that raker is to push the chip ahead of the cutter. They ride good, but don't hit anything harder that the wood your cutting or they break right off.


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## mdavlee (Sep 13, 2012)

The goal is to thin them and have less contact on the wood. The more friction on the wood from anything but the cutting edge is slowing it down a tiny bit. You add that and the rivets contacting all adds up to fractions of a second.


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## HELSEL (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Here is the 3 cube chain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The old Oberg chisel bit files are hard to find. They
make several different sizes of the chisel file too.


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## tree monkey (Sep 13, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> The goal is to thin them and have less contact on the wood. The more friction on the wood from anything but the cutting edge is slowing it down a tiny bit. You add that and the rivets contacting all adds up to fractions of a second.



this is true. but don't thin them to the point that thay cut into the wood or it goes the other way


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## mdavlee (Sep 14, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> The old Oberg chisel bit files are hard to find. They
> make several different sizes of the chisel file too.



I got lucky someone mis labeled them on ebay and I scooped up about 5 he had left. I bought one to make sure and then bought the last he had. I wish I had got more at first.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 14, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> The old Oberg chisel bit files are hard to find. They
> make several different sizes of the chisel file too.



I showed Dennis the mislabeled ones I found. He bought some and said they are the good ones to get. :msp_wink:


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## mdavlee (Sep 14, 2012)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> I showed Dennis the mislabeled ones I found. He bought some and said they are the good ones to get. :msp_wink:



I bought 1 at first then forgot about them and went back and got the last ones he had by the listing. I need to check and see if he has more. :msp_biggrin:


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## Dennis Cahoon (Sep 14, 2012)

I bought 2 to make sure they were real Obergs......then bought 6 more. Should've bought them all. BTW they're all gone. Thanks for the heads-up Kevin.

Yes, there's the 149 file for 1/2" chain, thicker width full length. The 150 file full length, about 6"or 7" long, thinner than the 149. The double ender, and the goofy. Might be more but these are the one's I've used. The rib of the Oberg file is straight across and a finer file, which makes it very smooth. Where as some of the other files are couarse and the ribs are angled. Not as smooth.


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## Majorpayne (Sep 14, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> I bought 2 to make sure they were real Obergs......then bought 6 more. Should've bought them all. BTW they're all gone. Thanks for the heads-up Kevin.



Ha ha.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Sep 14, 2012)

Majorpayne said:


> Ha ha.



How many did you buy?.......Hahahahahahaha!


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 14, 2012)

Not a bad buy for Obergs at $7 a piece :tongue2:


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## Majorpayne (Sep 14, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> How many did you buy?.......Hahahahahahaha!



I am a round guy in more ways than one.


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## Freakingstang (Sep 14, 2012)

I have a couple eric copsey GTG chains I'll sell. i don't have a use for them anymore


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## Toad22t (Sep 14, 2012)

*file guide*

Andy if your looking for a file guide that works for round and square chisel,i picked one up at my local friendly stihl/jonsered dealer. It is made by oregon p/n 23736a. I picked it up for 45 bucks. Just incase you or anyone else were intrested.


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## greendohn (Sep 14, 2012)

*Well I'll Be !!*

Have read the entire thread today and I am really amazed with what you guys are doin' with saw chain.

THANKS FOR THE INPUT/INFO/PICS, Really. 

Never heard of any thing like that going on around here. Amazing/Impressive. To say the least.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 14, 2012)

greendohn said:


> Have read the entire thread today and I am really amazed with what you guys are doin' with saw chain.
> 
> THANKS FOR THE INPUT/INFO/PICS, Really.
> 
> Never heard of any thing like that going on around here. Amazing/Impressive. To say the least.



Yeah it is kind of cool. I dont know how to mod a saw but I think with time and practice I will be able to mod a chain. (Maybe someday I will also try to mod a saw.) This site is definately a great place for helpfull info.


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## Freakingstang (Sep 14, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Yeah it is kind of cool. I dont know how to mod a saw but I think with time and practice I will be able to mod a chain. (Maybe someday I will also try to mod a saw.) This site is definately a great place for helpfull info.



You have a good attitude. Its all about practice, and consistentcy. i am no means an expert at all, especially since i have been out of it for so long, but I literally spent hours filing chains until i found what worked, and able to keep a dependable edge. What's the worst that can happen? you learn something? lol. it's a fine line between razor sharp that lasts one cut or one that can last through 10 cants.


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## parrisw (Sep 15, 2012)

Man my hats off to your race chain filer's, been working on a chain the pasts couple nights, time consuming to say the least, so far I'm almost done clelaning out the gullets and grinding the back of the tooth, and narrowing the raker, only sharpened a few cutters so far. Maybe post some pics when I'm done so you all can laugh.:hmm3grin2orange:

A few things I've learned, don't do any chains over 20", this one is 24" but I don't have any 20" bars for D009. Don't start with a junk clapped out chain, and the new Stihl flat files I have are junk, I've already worn one out.


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2012)

I finished up 3 chains like these this week and ground 10 more to square for work chains. I'm not sure how many hours I have in all the chains this week but I would venture to say more than 10 and I had 3 already took back just had to finish the cutters up on 2.


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## parrisw (Sep 15, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I finished up 3 chains like these this week and ground 10 more to square for work chains. I'm not sure how many hours I have in all the chains this week but I would venture to say more than 10 and I had 3 already took back just had to finish the cutters up on 2.



Yikes, you're faster then me! That's allot of filing for a week. Do you grind all youre play chains?


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2012)

I grind some and file some. I use the grinder to get them close to what I want before filing. I need a round grinder to clean gullets and to shorten cutters.


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## MechanicMatt (Sep 15, 2012)

First off, Andy you stink man, because of this thread I spent 3.5 hours playing with one chain. 

Second, is it possible to make a chain too aggressive for a saw? I took a almost whooped chain for my 026 and cleaned the area between the cutter and raker, then made my rakers look as close to that photo on the last page. This thing spits out inch to inch and a half chips now, but I think it would go faster if the motor was bigger. The chips almost look like your noodling. 

Why did I have to read this thread, now Im going to wear out all my files.


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2012)

MechanicMatt said:


> First off, Andy you stink man, because of this thread I spent 3.5 hours playing with one chain.
> 
> Second, is it possible to make a chain too aggressive for a saw? I took a almost whooped chain for my 026 and cleaned the area between the cutter and raker, then made my rakers look as close to that photo on the last page. This thing spits out inch to inch and a half chips now, but I think it would go faster if the motor was bigger. The chips almost look like your noodling.
> 
> Why did I have to read this thread, now Im going to wear out all my files.



Yes when you get rakers that small they don't need to be as low. The little raker will dig into the wood a little more than a larger area will. You're getting a nice chip if it's pulling 1" or longer when cross cutting.


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## parrisw (Sep 15, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> I grind some and file some. I use the grinder to get them close to what I want before filing. I need a round grinder to clean gullets and to shorten cutters.



I was using a 4.5" angle grinder to grind the back of the tooth down, witha thin cutoff wheel on it.


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## tree monkey (Sep 15, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I was using a 4.5" angle grinder to grind the back of the tooth down, witha thin cutoff wheel on it.



so your the guy with the vid on how to sharpen chain wih an angle grinder


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 15, 2012)

MechanicMatt said:


> First off, Andy you stink man, because of this thread I spent 3.5 hours playing with one chain.
> 
> Second, is it possible to make a chain too aggressive for a saw? I took a almost whooped chain for my 026 and cleaned the area between the cutter and raker, then made my rakers look as close to that photo on the last page. This thing spits out inch to inch and a half chips now, but I think it would go faster if the motor was bigger. The chips almost look like your noodling.
> 
> Why did I have to read this thread, now Im going to wear out all my files.



I do believe you need a bigger saw, but then again I think that of everyone.:msp_w00t:


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## MechanicMatt (Sep 15, 2012)

Its funny, I was thinking about using my big grinder but then remembered the video of that guy sharpening the chain with one. I was only able to use a round file to sharpen the cutter and the chain was essentially junk to start with but I was amazed at the size of the chips that playing with the raker and gullet would produce:msp_w00t: AMAZING!


----------



## benp (Sep 15, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Yes when you get rakers that small they don't need to be as low. The little raker will dig into the wood a little more than a larger area will. You're getting a nice chip if it's pulling 1" or longer when cross cutting.



Holy Smokes!!!!

That's a from a cross cut?!!?!?!:msp_scared:

Wow!! That's awesome!!!


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2012)

benp said:


> Holy Smokes!!!!
> 
> That's a from a cross cut?!!?!?!:msp_scared:
> 
> Wow!! That's awesome!!!





Yep :msp_biggrin: 

Maple and a nice running 2171 that lives in Wisconsin now did that cutting cants.


----------



## andydodgegeek (Sep 15, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Yep :msp_biggrin:
> 
> Maple and a nice running 2171 that lives in Wisconsin now did that cutting cants.



Those chip are definitley impressive. Its hard to believe how excited I am over some saw dust but those are just something else. Do you have any video of that being run. Makes me think of my dad telling me about when he used to work for Asplundh tree company back in the late 60's early 70's running big 1130g homelites with 1/2" chain he always said "it looked like someone was dumping a box of corn flakes out behind ya." The old man has some great stories.


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## mdavlee (Sep 15, 2012)

Couldn't find any video from cutting the maple cants. Wendell owns that saw now so you may have ran it at one of the gtgs.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 15, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Makes me think of my dad telling me about when he used to work for Asplundh tree company back in the late 60's early 70's running big 1130g homelites with 1/2" chain he always said "it looked like someone was dumping a box of corn flakes out behind ya." The old man has some great stories.


Cant wait to hear more of them stories next weekend at our gtg!!!! :kilt:
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/208175.htm


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 16, 2012)

*FINALLY got out there to try the square ground!!!*

Well, here it is.... what you've all been waiting for. :hmm3grin2orange:

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;VwgBVRKOoSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VwgBVRKOoSo[/video]


----------



## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 16, 2012)

*Progress so far*

Stock chain Treemonkey'd 440: 3.3s
Race chain 1st filing Treemonkey'd 440: 2.5s
Race chain 2nd filing Treemonkey'd 440: 2.4s
Out-of-the-box Square ground chain Treemonkey's 44: 2.2s
(Now its as fast as the 064 was with the 1st round filing on the race chain-pretty impressive)
Stock chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.8s
Race chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.2s


----------



## benp (Sep 16, 2012)

Jeebus.:msp_scared:

That's pretty sweet!!!!


----------



## Metals406 (Sep 16, 2012)

That's out-of-the-box square. . . Wait until it's sharp.


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## mdavlee (Sep 16, 2012)

Yep you get a good sharp square chain it will be under 2 seconds.


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## Fedaburger (Sep 16, 2012)

Holy woodchips that's impressive. I want some square chain!!


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## benp (Sep 16, 2012)

This thread has me thinking out loud a little. 

Is there a way to improve some upon regular round filing by using some of these principles? Gullet, rakers front to back, etc?

Or.... is it not worth it?

I started using regular chisel again due to being in clean wood and I forgot how good it cut. The more aggressive chain (vs semi) actually seems to load the saws better, if that makes sense. 

Andy, keep up the good work. 

I cant wait to see this in action next week!!


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## mdavlee (Sep 16, 2012)

benp said:


> This thread has me thinking out loud a little.
> 
> Is there a way to improve some upon regular round filing by using some of these principles? Gullet, rakers front to back, etc?
> 
> ...



You can as you can see andy got good improvements with the round and work. Square is just better for faster chains.


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## benp (Sep 16, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> You can as you can see andy got good improvements with the round and work. Square is just better for faster chains.



Gotcha. Thanks.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 16, 2012)

Stock chain testing I did in 2010 before some of the new chains came out.


Found a post from 2010 I made.

For you guys talking about stihl and oregon chain cutting speeds. I tested cut speeds of stock chains and atop square guide filed chain. I dont think I had a fresh loop of LG to try. The atop chain was oregon LP 058 goofy and square filed and then my 30 min square atop filed.



I found a nice clean 10"x10" very dry poplar cant in the barn that has been there for well over a year now.

Saw was a 357xp 7T running 93 octane 32:1 and a rich 13.8k. 3 cuts per chain, which allowed for the unseen knot hit and operator error in some of the times.

Chains were work chains tested.

I know factory sharp chains are not the sharpest out of the box, but I wanted to have a base to go off of. So RSLK, RSLHK, CL, RS, factory sharp were tested.



A. Stihl RSLK factory sharp..................................4.09...4.53 ...4.13

B. Stihl RSLHK factory sharp.................................4.47...4.74. .4.28

F. Oregon CL factory sharp..................................3.88....4.2 0...4.25

K. Stihl RS factory sharp....................................4.18..... 4.21....4.12

C. ATOP square sent in by Goran...........................3.41...3.38..3.34

D. ATOP goofy sent in by Goran............................3.75...3.59...3.8 1

E. ATOP sq my 1st try using new guide..................3.96....3.88...3.76 filed in 30mins


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 16, 2012)

benp said:


> This thread has me thinking out loud a little.
> 
> Is there a way to improve some upon regular round filing by using some of these principles? Gullet, rakers front to back, etc?
> 
> ...



Yep, the round ground chain I made took me roughly 8 hours worth of grinding filing. It worked quite well I thought. Now I got a new out of the box square ground chain and with out doing anything to it I am faster than my 8hr round. Oh well, this is how you learn. Now I need to start figureing out how to get this square stuff sharp.


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## parrisw (Sep 16, 2012)

Well got my chain finished. I'm a little disappointed in it, worst thing is I should of started with a chain that had more life left in it. It will cut none the less, how good? I don't know, I think I might have a too aggressive top plate angle, its very sharp, but may dull too quick, how do I know its sharp you ask!! Well not paying attention I was feeling the top plate and then put my hand down but rubbed my finger on the cutter behind it, freakin put a good gash in the end of my finger, cut it like a razor. I had some trouble keeping the left and right the same, need more practice, this is only the 3 chain I've filed goofy, and the first chain I've tried to make "fast". Here are a few pics, you can all laugh now, all hand done, took forever.


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## Dennis Cahoon (Sep 16, 2012)

Willie......try putting the file in the point of the tooth.....Hahahahahaha!


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## parrisw (Sep 16, 2012)

Dennis Cahoon said:


> Willie......try putting the file in the point of the tooth.....Hahahahahaha!



You talking about the corner? I know, need more practice. I find it kinda hard to follow on the goofy file since the edge is round, so there is not a distinguished corner on the file, if that's what you mean.


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Sep 16, 2012)

So what exactly are you guys doing to the back of the cutter and how? Also what does this do in return to make it faster?


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## parrisw (Sep 16, 2012)

MS460WOODCHUCK said:


> So what exactly are you guys doing to the back of the cutter and how? Also what does this do in return to make it faster?



Just grinding it back.


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## lmbrman (Sep 16, 2012)

MS460WOODCHUCK said:


> So what exactly are you guys doing to the back of the cutter and how? Also what does this do in return to make it faster?



clearence/chip flow i think-


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## Hedgerow (Sep 16, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Just grinding it back.



The cutting point is far more important than what's behind it... 
Just thinking out loud here... Just got done trying something on a round filed chain...
Worked out pretty good... Once I get the cutter point just right, I'll deal with the rest of the cutter... :msp_wink:


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 16, 2012)

lmbrman said:


> clearence/chip flow i think-



Thats what I think. If you look at a tooth it looks as though it slants down towards the back and if you take away some of the back of the tooth you will have more room for chips to pass thru. This is what I think am I right?


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## Hedgerow (Sep 16, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Thats what I think. If you look at a tooth it looks as though it slants down towards the back and if you take away some of the back of the tooth you will have more room for chips to pass thru. This is what I think am I right?



Might have more to do with reducing drag... The rakers should move the chips out I would think...


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## HELSEL (Sep 16, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Might have more to do with reducing drag... The rakers should move the chips out I would think...




. I think the raker is more of a depth 
gauge and does not rake the sawdust
or chips out. It may take out a small
percentage of it. If it was going to
play the part of a rake it would be as
wide as the kerf??


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## Hedgerow (Sep 16, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> . I think the raker is more of a depth
> gauge and does not rake the sawdust
> or chips out. It may take out a small
> percentage of it. If it was going to
> ...



Well??? We know it's a depth gauge... But does the following tooth take care of chip removal???
And how does the back of the tooth help in this matter???


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## parrisw (Sep 16, 2012)

I thought taking the back of the tooth forward, reduced drag.


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## MS460WOODCHUCK (Sep 16, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I thought taking the back of the tooth forward, reduced drag.



:msp_confused: Don't know that's why I asked...


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## HELSEL (Sep 16, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> Well??? We know it's a depth gauge... But does the following tooth take care of chip removal???
> And how does the back of the tooth help in this matter???



If you do a little test with your
saw!! Ok. Cut into the cant and kill it in
the middle don't move the saw, Break 
the cookie off without moving the saw.
Break it all the way down where you can see
the cutters. You will find most of your chips in front
of the the cutter.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 17, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> If you do a little test with your
> saw!! Ok. Cut into the cant and kill it in
> the middle don't move the saw, Break
> the cookie off without moving the saw.
> ...



Now that's a good idea!


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## HELSEL (Sep 17, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I thought taking the back of the tooth forward, reduced drag.



Yes, that and weight. When the chain
starts spinning at high RPM the weight 
will make it leave the bar. It makes switching 
tough when your chain is flying out of
the bar 2 inches. I am talking about the
open mod saws running 14-15 tooth drive
sprokets.


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## parrisw (Sep 17, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> Yes, that and weight. When the chain
> starts spinning at high RPM the weight
> will make it leave the bar. It makes switching
> tough when your chain is flying out of
> ...



Right, makes sense! Thanks.


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## Justsaws (Sep 17, 2012)

HELSEL said:


> If you do a little test with your
> saw!! Ok. Cut into the cant and kill it in
> the middle don't move the saw, Break
> the cookie off without moving the saw.
> ...



Yep. Depth gauge is a depth gauge, soft wood or hard wood. It probably helps a depth gauge to assist in pushing some chips to have a straighter lead edge and flatten top but probably still not enough to be considered an effective raker. Maybe most effective in real small wood, where there is less travel before the chips are out of the kerf. It is just to thin of a profile as was previously mentioned. A chain will still cut if the depth gauges are completely removed, chips will still load up in front of the cutters and it will still "function", just not safely or in any way conveniently like a chain with depth gauges.


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## wigglesworth (Sep 17, 2012)

This was my first ever attempt at filing square. I missed the inside corner a bit.


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## Justsaws (Sep 17, 2012)

MS460WOODCHUCK said:


> So what exactly are you guys doing to the back of the cutter and how? Also what does this do in return to make it faster?



Have you ever seen a cutter from a chain that was run dull long enough or without enough oil to load up the outside of the top plate with baked on saw dust, sap and oil?

Many times the very lead edge of the cutter will be "pushed" down or have the chrome pulled off then the middle section of the top plate will have some baked on grime and then the heal end of the top plate will be clean. 

The heal end is getting cleaned from contact with solid un cut wood. 

When to cutter is biting in, severing the chip, hitting the depth gauge, and pulling back out as the chain is retensioned by the next cutter the heal end of the cutter is touching the solid uncut next layer of wood. That is drag on the chain, vibration and increases heal and toe wear on the tie straps and builds up additional heat, more stretch.

Theory being that a little dovetailing is a good thing then a bunch must be a great thing.

If the saw is fast enough, the chain is sharp enough and or the wood being cut large enough the chip tunnel or space between the tie straps, the inside of the side plate and top plate and the kerf will hold chips beyond the clutch cover all the way across the top of the bar and past the exposed tip and back into the working end of the kerf. Obviously this is not a good thing as it presents an already partly loaded chip tunnel to the new sequence of cutting and transporting chips. Having a shortened top plate and side plate will allow the chips in the chip tunnel to clear easier and make the chip tunnel more effective. The chips will fill the space between the heal edge of a cutter and and the compressed heal edge of the next cutter. If to much chip is present having been pulled all the way around the bar then the cutter has to cut chips first and then hopefully bite into uncut wood before the depth gauge hits and the chain is retensioned. The profile of a centered depth gauge allows it to hit predictably even in a typical loaded chip tunnel.

Except VanGaurd, an evil evil chain.

Clearing gullets makes a huge difference but if things are going really well then having the heal end of the cutter nipped back a bit will make a difference. Less chip compression and metal to clear.

In terms of Hensel"s comments about weight reduction, I could see that being a concern on saws that are much, much, much, much more powerful than mine. However, I will grin ear to ear if I ever get a pedictable 2" of lift off a 14" or 16" bar on one of my saws and then I will back away slowly from it.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 17, 2012)

Hmmm, interesting stuff here. I am learning alot about chains here.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 17, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> This was my first ever attempt at filing square. I missed the inside corner a bit.




the inside corner like you cut it should actually be faster cutting ,think of the tooth like a knife blade longer the angle of the cutter the sharper it will be ,my square cuts go dull faster than a stock chain ,but they are sharper due to the taper of the cutter ,with a fille its pretty tough to be perfect ,grinder a lot the work out of it


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 17, 2012)

Well this weekend is my GTG and I look forward to trying out my chains, finally something that might give me an "edge" over the competition.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 17, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Well this weekend is my GTG and I look forward to trying out my chains, finally something that might give me an "edge" over the competition.



The chain is a good place to find it and payin close attention to the really good operators is something else to watch and learn from.
Wish i could be there, y'all have fun!


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## HEAVY FUEL (Sep 17, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Well this weekend is my GTG and I look forward to trying out my chains, finally something that might give me an "edge" over the competition.



I just got done dragging the cants around in sand and hid a few nails in them so don't get your hopes up...


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 17, 2012)

HEAVY FUEL said:


> I just got done dragging the cants around in sand and hid a few nails in them so don't get your hopes up...



Oh sure real funny there.:hmm3grin2orange:Actually sand seems to make my chains sharper.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 18, 2012)

Opinions on the atop square sharpener? Is it worth $200? Just curious.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Opinions on the atop square sharpener? Is it worth $200? Just curious.



I refuse to spend a dime on anything other than a file...
Till I ante up for a Silvey grinder...
:msp_sneaky:
Then you're in trouble Andy...

And yes, the A-Top worked well for J Johnson it seemed...


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## Justsaws (Sep 18, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Opinions on the atop square sharpener? Is it worth $200? Just curious.



I have no comment on the functioning of the A-Top but the price is high enough to make me pass on it. I would rather keep saving for an actual grinder, much more money but much more productive and more adjustable.


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## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2012)

I would pass and look for a used grinder. I got one of the RS II for $206 to my door.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 18, 2012)

If there were more demand for square the price would come down on the grinders.
It seems like the not staying sharp and square just being suitable for softwoods and larger displacement saws is over stated.
Not that my opinion matters much..


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Sep 18, 2012)

Friend of mine bought a used atop for $45. That I would do for a guide. For $200 I would be looking for a used swing-arm or RS2


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah, seems an awfull lot of money for what it is. Just asking. Anyhow I just got in from the shop trying my hands at hand filing my first ever square ground. Wasn't too bad I definitely struggled with the left side cutters, I felt a bit retarded. I felt like I made some good edges on the right side but it was real hard to get the left side done, it took me twice as long. I will go back out in a bit and take a few pics of what I have done and when the wife gets home I will do a couple of cuts and post a video. If the time is an improvement I might go and try to do some other things to the teeth, file back side, work a little on the rakers, kind of do what I did to my round ground.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

I need some historical info...
When fella's were hand filing square ground chain before the save edge double bevel, what type of file did they use most commonly???


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## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2012)

Oberg has been around for a long time. I wish I had about 10 dozen of them. I only have a handful and they're nice.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> Oberg has been around for a long time. I wish I had about 10 dozen of them. I only have a handful and they're nice.



How do they differ in shape to the save edge double bevel???


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## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2012)

The shape is the same. The teeth are less aggressive it seems like. Makes a real nice finish and doesn't seem to need as much pressure to make a stroke.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

mdavlee said:


> The shape is the same. The teeth are less aggressive it seems like. Makes a real nice finish and doesn't seem to need as much pressure to make a stroke.



I been focusing on the round filed chains lately... Time to address this square ground loop some good Samaritan gave me...


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## mdavlee (Sep 18, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I been focusing on the round filed chains lately... Time to address this square ground loop some good Samaritan gave me...



If it don't work out you have my address. I'll grind it again for you. I will be home the weekends for the next few weeks so I'll have time to get them done if they're waiting on me on friday when I get home.


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## Justsaws (Sep 18, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> If there were more demand for square the price would come down on the grinders.
> It seems like the not staying sharp and square just being suitable for softwoods and larger displacement saws is over stated.
> Not that my opinion matters much..



I enjoy using square filed chains but do still the majority of my cutting with round filed simply because it does hold up better. Dozer piles and easement areas are just not square friendly. It will do a number on nice clean Ash and Oak trees though.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

Justsaws said:


> I enjoy using square filed chains but do still the majority of my cutting with round filed simply because it does hold up better. Dozer piles and easement areas are just not square friendly. It will do a number on nice clean Ash and Oak trees though.



It will cut Hedge pretty well too...
As long as its clean and fresh...
Just don't hit a fence...
Just sayin'...:msp_rolleyes:


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 18, 2012)

Have you ever used the file Bailey's - Pferd 3-Corner Chisel Files


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

WKEND LUMBERJAK said:


> Have you ever used the file Bailey's - Pferd 3-Corner Chisel Files



I saw those today... Wondered how they were used...


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## J.W Younger (Sep 18, 2012)

Two things that help my square chains live are sharpening before the cutters begin to skid over the wood and keeping the side plate as close to 90 degs as possible and still self feed, (and the rakers are part of of this too). The 45 deg side plate and under the toplate angles may not be optimal for speed but are way better than you can get round filing, imo.
I'm talking work chain on these angles


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## WKEND LUMBERJAK (Sep 18, 2012)

Goy one comimg this week the one I'm getting is a save edge. This thread has given a lot of good pointers. takes 37 stokes to file bake the gullet on a new sqaure ground chain:msp_sad::msp_sad:. I'm going to use a grinder oln the next on if it will work.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> Two things that help my square chains live are sharpening before the cutters begin to skid over the wood and keeping the side plate as close to 90 degs as possible and still self feed, (and the rakers are part of of this too). The 45 deg side plate and under the toplate angles may not be optimal for speed but are way better than you can get round filing, imo.
> I'm talking work chain on these angles



More metal to support the point makes sense for durability...


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## J.W Younger (Sep 18, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> More metal to support the point makes sense for durability...


It can make a heck of a difference on the point not being pushed down if the chain stops cutting at speed and overheats in a heart beat.
A lot of cutter life can be lost in a little time not to mention the time it takes to get it cutting again.


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## Justsaws (Sep 18, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> It will cut Hedge pretty well too...
> As long as its clean and fresh...
> Just don't hit a fence...
> Just sayin'...:msp_rolleyes:



Don't see much Hedge. T-post, wire fencing and chain link seem to grow like trees around here. Seems to fubar the square a bit more than the round, probably because the corner is thinner and the working edges are thinner further back into the plates.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 18, 2012)

Here is the pic of Andy's 1st attempt @ square filing. Not sure how well these pics turned out. Didn't have time to make a cut- had gun club meeting... Will try tomorrow


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## watsonr (Sep 18, 2012)

That little beak right at the top of the gullet needs to go! I see some good work there, your corner is looking good.


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## blsnelling (Sep 18, 2012)

Nice work Andy!


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah those are the right cutters, I will take some pics of my lefts tommorrow. They look about the same it just took me a bit longer. The right cutters really didnt take me too long once I had a feel for it. The other side of the chain though...it seemed like every tooth was like I was starting over again. It seemed to help it I held my left pointer finger next to the tooth and ran the file over that finger to keep me going straight. Does that make sense? Any pointers?


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## J.W Younger (Sep 18, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Yeah those are the right cutters, I will take some pics of my lefts tommorrow. They look about the same it just took me a bit longer. The right cutters really didnt take me too long once I had a feel for it. The other side of the chain though...it seemed like every tooth was like I was starting over again. It seemed to help it I held my left pointer finger next to the tooth and ran the file over that finger to keep me going straight. Does that make sense? Any pointers?



Hey, if it works for you thats what matters. I file the left cutters from the front and the rights from the side. Maybe its just me...


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 18, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> Hey, if it works for you thats what matters. I file the left cutters from the front and the rights from the side. Maybe its just me...



Yeah thats the way I did it also.


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## watsonr (Sep 18, 2012)

I stand a little closer to the saw when doing left side cutters, it helps me hold the angle. The right side seems natural to me and like you said, kind of awkward for left cutters and I have to move the file around until I feel it. Move just a little closer to the saw and see what you think, for me, it makes the stoke easier to hold the angle.


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## Hedgerow (Sep 18, 2012)

J.W Younger said:


> Hey, if it works for you thats what matters. I file the left cutters from the front and the rights from the side. Maybe its just me...



I just stand back and cuss at the chain when it chatters...
Spose' that helps any???
:msp_sneaky:


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## J.W Younger (Sep 18, 2012)

Hedgerow said:


> I just stand back and cuss at the chain when it chatters...
> Spose' that helps any???
> :msp_sneaky:


Way i see it is if it makes you feel better and it does me, goferit and stuff.
Lifes to short to spend it with yer shorts bunched.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 19, 2012)

Do any of you use something to hold the chain besides just sitting on the bar on the saw. It seemed like it does chatter a bit , it would be nice if I could hold the chain so it couldn't move. I started looking at the vice on my oregol 511ax thinking I need something like that.


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## J.W Younger (Sep 19, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Do any of you use something to hold the chain besides just sitting on the bar on the saw. It seemed like it does chatter a bit , it would be nice if I could hold the chain so it couldn't move. I started looking at the vice on my oregol 511ax thinking I need something like that.


A piece of wood or something wedged between the bar and chain on the bottom. I heard some even say they overtighten the chain but i tension normally and use a piece of lexan(the same one used for racker filing) stuck between the chain and bar. When i cut the lexan having this in mind i made it in an L shape and wedge the short side in the b/c.This is to square file a round chain or badly dull or damaged square one. Most touch up sharpening i don't use anything but my left hand to stabilize it.


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## mdavlee (Sep 19, 2012)

I use a scrench in the bottom of the bar to tighten the chain a little more if I'm going to file on the saw. I use a bar in a vise with vise grips holding the chain tight.


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## watsonr (Sep 19, 2012)

I clamp the bar in a vise at waist level. I have it mounted on a pallot in the back of the truck and just pull down the tailgate when I sharpen. Use left hand to hold the chain and right hand the file, let's me feel the what's happening. Just how I learned.


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## Metals406 (Sep 19, 2012)

On the Atop thing. . . Just wait.

A new, less costly, version is going to come out.

I have not heard the eta, but know it's developed.


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## sarahdodgegeek (Sep 20, 2012)

*Checking in on progress*

Stock chain Treemonkey'd 440: 3.3s
Race chain 1st filing Treemonkey'd 440: 2.5s
Race chain 2nd filing Treemonkey'd 440: 2.4s
Out-of-the-box Square ground chain Treemonkey'd 440: 2.2s
*1st filing of square ground chain on Treemonkey'd 440: 1.9s*:msp_w00t:
Stock chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.8s
Race chain Treemonkey'd 064: 2.2s 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TsT-lSFwbtM

LINK:IMG 1782 - YouTube

[video=youtube;TsT-lSFwbtM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TsT-lSFwbtM[/video]


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 20, 2012)

I think I am going to like this square ground chain. I am anxious to try it on my Tree monkeyed 064 and my Stumpkita 7900 and ALL of my other saws. I didn't do anything to the chain since I posted the pictures of it the other night. If I have time I will do some more filing and metal removal from it tommorrow. I am kind of busy getting ready for my gtg this saturday.


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## Justsaws (Sep 20, 2012)

Excellent. Keep on filing.


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## 2strokenut (Sep 21, 2012)

some dam good info in this thread I have learnt a lot


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## benp (Sep 21, 2012)

2strokenut said:


> some dam good info in this thread I have learnt a lot



I totally agree. 

I subscribed to it to keep it easily accessible for reference.:msp_biggrin:


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## 2strokenut (Sep 21, 2012)

As did I opcorn:


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## jropo (Sep 21, 2012)

Me too.


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## andydodgegeek (Sep 21, 2012)

2strokenut said:


> some dam good info in this thread I have learnt a lot



Me too.


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 21, 2012)

andydodgegeek said:


> Me too.



this is no race chain ,but how my work chains come out ,first i use the silvey cut them square ,then i thow the chain in the oregon grinder and carve the gullet out ,the black on the edge of the gutter is grime off my gotton gloves i wear so dont cut my hands when sharpening ,this chain was real messed up ,i was demoing a wall and it hit some nails ,and sheetrock ,also a window frame that was aluminum ,it took about 3-4 sharpenings worth of material to get back to good tooth material View attachment 253629


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## J.W Younger (Sep 21, 2012)

Heres a simple bar holder


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## J.W Younger (Sep 21, 2012)

Well heck, thats all sucky and stuff...


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## troutfisher (Sep 22, 2012)

Nice looking chains guys, once you run chain like that it's tuff to go back.


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