# Self Loader - Need Opinions Please



## SliverPicker (Oct 24, 2015)

Northy got me thinking.

I had been in the process of purchasing a self loader until early this last week. I decided to pass on the deal due to several factors, but may be changing my mind.

Its a 2000 Mack with a 460 eTek motor. 339,099.9 miles on the clock. It got a reman engine directly from Mack in September 2011. Both rearends where made new one year ago. The rub is that I had my local hotshot mechanic look it over and he told me the cam bearings are on their way out. When the cam bearings go the Jake will not work properly and the oil pressure to the turbo gets too low and the truck eventually shells the turbo. When the turbo craps out the motor will run away and will turn in to a grenade if you are unable to get on the brakes and stall the engine. This motor, as it turns out, is famous for the cam bearings going bad. The mechanic said he can do the cam bearings, put in a new higher pressure oil pump and replace the crank bearings for $3000 in parts and $2000 in labor.

The other issue is that the truck is fairly small. The steer axle is only rated to 12,000 lbs. With just the loader on there the axle is near capacity before any logs are loaded.

I passed on the deal due to the bearing issue, the small axles and the fact that winter is fast approaching and I'm no truck driver. I'm not really excited about learning to drive a log truck with 7 months of winter directly ahead. Trucks are already chaining up to get loads out of the woods due to snow around here.

Anyway, I am starting to rethink buying the truck after all. I have two loads on the landing that have been there sine June 12th that I can't get hauled because I can't find a truck. Last year I had trouble finding a log truck, but this year it has been literally impossible. It has become obvious that without a truck I am out of business.

I have negotiated a price of $16,000 for the truck. This might be a deal that I can't afford to walk away from.

What do you guys think?







[/URL] 3151 by SliverPicker[/IMG]


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## SliverPicker (Oct 24, 2015)

I used to be able to get photos on here, but not anymore. I give up. 

Just click the "3151" to see the truck. Sorry for the incompetence.


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## treeslayer2003 (Oct 24, 2015)

well......300k is no miles for a truck, a new engine at 300 and it needs bearings? this all sounds fishy to me. i do not trust mechanics, they lie. self loaders are heavy, they not here cuz you can't tag for enough here to haul any thing.
i would say a full size self loader needs the heavy duty front end and super single front tires.


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## nk14zp (Oct 24, 2015)

More important than miles is how many hours on the motor? Self loaders rack a lot of hours up for the miles drove. Front end should be ok. I call bs on the cam bearings.


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## Skeans (Oct 24, 2015)

12k front end is pretty light for a self loader application, but I'd wonder if someone hasn't kept an eye on the oil. I'd be tempted to run a standard long logger and a shovel even in CO you will find a few for sale or a truck mount.

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## Skeans (Oct 24, 2015)

There was some stuff up around Laramie Wyoming that would probably be for sale by now, trucks and a truck mount Prentice if I remember correctly.

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## rocketnorton (Oct 24, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> well......300k is no miles for a truck, a new engine at 300 and it needs bearings? this all sounds fishy to me. i do not trust mechanics, they lie. self loaders are heavy, they not here cuz you can't tag for enough here to haul any thing.
> i would say a full size self loader needs the heavy duty front end and super single front tires.





nk14zp said:


> More important than miles is how many hours on the motor? Self loaders rack a lot of hours up for the miles drove. Front end should be ok. I call bs on the cam bearings.



+1 on all ex the "front end should be ok" part. imo, light front is hiway stuff.


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## bnmc98 (Oct 24, 2015)

If you are not doing a lot of firewood, why not look at just getting a loader and hiring a straight truck. That way you don't have to drive, and if your trucker ever gets unreliable you can move on to a new one.
Just a thought.
A straight will have a larger payload too so you won't spend as much on the trucking. (you might already know that though)
I have seen many loaders for around the price you are looking to pay for the selfie. Also if you get a tracked loader, it can help you a lot with other landing and road issues.


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## nk14zp (Oct 24, 2015)

rocketnorton said:


> +1 on all ex the "front end should be ok" part. imo, light front is hiway stuff.


Let me be more clear if it's the mack tapered king pin fa it should be fine. Besides most self loaders around here are lighter on the front when loaded.


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## treeslayer2003 (Oct 24, 2015)

i wanna know how he can say the cam bearings are wore without tearing it down...............sorry but it was buggin me.


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## fordf150 (Oct 24, 2015)

havent been around self loaders or Macks much but drove KW/Pete 6 axle dumps for 6 years. 12k front with 315 floats held up on other companys trucks just fine. 36 rears were a different story. 46 rears with quad locks is what i would look for(likely much higher price tag than your looking at). 36 rears have small axle shafts and drivelines that snap easily when taking off loaded when sunk in mud. I have seen more than my share of snapped axles and drive shafts on 36 rear trucks when subjected to off road environment. We ran 46 rears with chalmers solid suspension, 20 fronts, 3 12k steerables, 410 gears, 18spd direct, 425 floats on the steers. 300k miles of abuse and we never broke anything except a flywheel housing on the 500 cummins and a few sets of frame horns(KW had issues with the frames breaking at the front spring mount for a couple years). Not sure what the weight limits are there but here we were only aloud to gross 72k.


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## fordf150 (Oct 24, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i wanna know how he can say the cam bearings are wore without tearing it down...............sorry but it was buggin me.


I wondered the same thing but chalked it up to experience....see enough of em and you have a pretty good idea of what fails. I routinely diagnose low oil pressure/cam journals worn on 3v 5.4 motors and am correct 99% of the time once we get in there and tear them down.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

The mech. Says the cam bearings are going because the Jake is not working properly. It misses and kinda flutters. He has had to do cam bearings in 4 of theses engines in the past two years. Low oil pressure at the cam bearings makes the Jake miss and flutter. This particular mechanic is pretty a sharp chap.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> More important than miles is how many hours on the motor? Self loaders rack a lot of hours up for the miles drove. Front end should be ok. I call bs on the cam bearings.



20,000 hours on the chassis. Unknown on the current motor.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

Skeans said:


> There was some stuff up around Laramie Wyoming that would probably be for sale by now, trucks and a truck mount Prentice if I remember correctly.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk






I live just 2 hours from Laramie.


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## Skeans (Oct 25, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> I live just 2 hours from Laramie.


Nice I spent almost a year there almost 10 years ago now. If I remember correctly they were off hwy 287 but I could be incorrect. What lengths are you guys running over there?

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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

50 foot logs mostly plus or minus.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2015)

A wise man once told me, if you wanna log, go logging, if you wanna truck buy a truck.

The biggest thing keeping me from going the self loader route is the cost to keep it legal, tonnage and insurance is right around 3k a month, every month. This doesn't include fuel tires or getting paid.

Most of the folks that run self loaders out here try to get 2 or 3 loads a day, 2 and they do ok 3 and they make a little money. So do some hard thinkin. You wanna drive truck or you wanna cut timber?

Also an alternative would be to get a medium duty truck, say a single axle dump truck or longer flat bed, an equipment trailer, cut short logs and haul those in, guy could easily load with a medium sized excavator, tonnage and insurance would be significantly less, and the truck could serve dual purpose of moving your own equipment.


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## nk14zp (Oct 25, 2015)

This is what I meant in another thread. Stay small or get real big.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

I cannot find a truck to haul my logs. Period. I can't cut if I can't get it hauled. Without the truck I am out of business. With the truck I have to feed and water the danged thing. Truck insurance is $600 per month if I am hauling for someone else. If I haul exclusively for myself insurance is $110 per month. Registration is $2000 per year. The payment would be $547.00 per month for 2 years. Fuel? Tires? Repairs? PIA factor?

I have three jobs that I can't even start on due to a lack of trucking. I am stuck cutting for someone else on an hourly basis which ain't worth the rate. My skidder has been sitting idle since the end of August. 

A smaller truck might not make sense either since distances are typically 1-2 hours one way to whatever mill. At rates of between $26 and $30 per ton for dried out dead pine I doubt I can haul enough wood on a smaller truck to make it pay.

Without a truck I am done, but I don't think I can afford the truck.

Fug!


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## rocketnorton (Oct 25, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> I cannot find a truck to haul my logs. Period. I can't cut if I can't get it hauled. Without the truck I am out of business. With the truck I have to feed and water the danged thing. Truck insurance is $600 per month if I am hauling for someone else. If I haul exclusively for myself insurance is $110 per month. Registration is $2000 per year. The payment would be $547.00 per month for 2 years. Fuel? Tires? Repairs? PIA factor?
> 
> I have three jobs that I can't even start on due to a lack of trucking. I am stuck cutting for someone else on an hourly basis which ain't worth the rate. My skidder has been sitting idle since the end of August.
> 
> ...



cant like that, but like yer sig line.


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## troutbum (Oct 25, 2015)

Sounds like I'm pretty close to you, and we are having a hell of a time getting our logs hauled from the site in Grand Co. To our yard in Summit.


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## nk14zp (Oct 25, 2015)

Who would be driving the truck?


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## bnmc98 (Oct 25, 2015)

How much wood are you putting out? Are you by yourself?

Sounds like somebody could make a business starting a trucking company.

Those aren't real good rates, you need a truck and a pup.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> Who would be driving the truck?



Me.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

If someone came here with three self loaders and six drivers I think they could run 24/7 if the mills would open the scales at all hours.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> How much wood are you putting out? Are you by yourself?
> 
> Sounds like somebody could make a business starting a trucking company.
> 
> Those aren't real good rates, you need a truck and a pup.



I'm by myself. I can put out a load every 1-3 days depending on the size of the timber. I am cutting and limbing by hand.

This is truck-length cutting.


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## Skeans (Oct 25, 2015)

Has Colorado started to adopt the newer CARB emissions if they are talking about it, I'd stay clear of trucks because you'll need a 2010 or newer truck to comply

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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

Not that I know of.


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## Skeans (Oct 25, 2015)

I know Oregon and Washington have talked about doing it here 

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## troutbum (Oct 25, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Sounds like somebody could make a business starting a trucking company.



A couple of my guys have talked about it, but i don't think they're quite smart enough to pull it off


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

Who do you work for tb?


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## troutbum (Oct 25, 2015)

Alpine tree, we do mostly residential work, but we are picking up more big (for us) jobs each season


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 25, 2015)

Depending on how the truck is setup and how you place the logs, it may work out that most of the weight is on the drives.
300k on a 15 yr log truck is quite a bit of miles though.

I'm not up to speed on Macks but I spent a while reading up online and I didn't see any talk about cam bearing being a normal problem for that series. 

In any case, 16k is really cheap if everything else is fine. This is a normal 18 wheel setup long log setup right?


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

Yeah. Its a normal 18 wheeled long logger. It seems to run great other than the Jake missing and not holding back like it should.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2015)

to toss in my 2 cents, most of the self loaders I've seen without the drop axle have the bunks centered between the drive axles, more or less putting any weight on the drives and the loader being the only load on the steer axle, with a drop axle they move the bunk a few inches forward but not much say centered over the forward drive axle.

Anyway, a wonky jake and a goofy bearing my be expensive but from the sounds of it you may just need to go that route to stay working.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2015)

Also there be several Self loaders for sale around here, some cheap, some not so cheap. A buddy sort of, just flew to Florida and picked up a loader truck and drove it home, took him 4 days, but now he can load his own logs.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

If only I had a crystal ball...


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 25, 2015)

I don't see how you could lose out at 16k for a pretty new truck. Heck if it was near here and we didn't already have 2 I'd be looking at it.

The ones I've seen come up for sale around that new were in the 60-100k area, depending on condition and setup.


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## bnmc98 (Oct 25, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> At rates of between $26 and $30 per ton for dried out dead pine I doubt I can haul enough wood on a smaller truck to make it pay.
> Fug!



Is that the rate the mill pays you? For Saw logs? Do you have to pay trucking out of that?


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## SliverPicker (Oct 25, 2015)

That's the rate. That's at-the-landing prices. So, no, no trucking out of that

Saw logs are the upper end of that ($30 per ton). 

The only exception is for unusually high quality logs (straight, no spiral checking, 10 inch top etc) then the price is $60-70 per ton. This represents less than 10% of everything cut.

The elevation and moisture in this state are not to the loggers' advantage. The growing season is short and the rainfall is lacking.


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## dhskier2 (Oct 26, 2015)

Craig Sparrow is a bit of an odd fella, but he's straight and only business. He and his brother own Western Equipment & Truck in Greeley. http://www.wetrucks.com/

He buys and sells all over the country. I doubt he's got a self loader in his yard, but I'm certain he can get one for you


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks skier. I honestly appreciate that.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> That's the rate. That's at-the-landing prices. So, no, no trucking out of that
> 
> Saw logs are the upper end of that ($30 per ton).
> 
> ...



How many tons per cord? We get $1400 per load for firewood tree length, around 9 cords or somewhere around 20 tons.
Saw logs are done by bd ft. I forget the rate, I don't handle much on the lumber side of things.
Edit... just curious.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

Also check in your Lumberman's Equipment Magazine, they have trucks in there.


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## 1270d (Oct 26, 2015)

Maybe you could work out a rent/test agreement with the seller of the truck, at least getting your wood moved. Have a good chance to check things over that way as well. Worth a shot seems like.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

That's a great idea 1270. Maybe I will bring that up.

The other option is to offer the negotiated $16,000 minus the engine repair of $5000. I doubt highly they would go that low however. Then again I have nothing to lose in asking.

I took my CDL test about an hour ago and passed all three sections. Now I just need a DOT physical and I will have my permit.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

The written tests are pretty easy. The big thing when doing the driven test is the pre-trip. Outside inspection, inside inspection, and the 3 part brake check.

I did mine in winter, was about -20* that day. I barely got to the tractors drive tires when I was told I to get in the truck, was too cold to be standing outside haha.

The driving test isn't bad. It will be even easier with the log reach as it tracks much better, though backing up is a bit screwy if your used to a normal semi truck.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm not used to any semi. I've moved trucks on the landing after I've loaded them plenty of times and I drove a box dump truck for a week one time two years ago, but I've got no "feel" for the shifting or anything else. It should be an adventure.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

I think I am going to do what 1270 suggested and see if they will let me haul my two loads with the truck and see where it goes from there. Maybe I will buy the thing after all.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> The written tests are pretty easy. The big thing when doing the driven test is the pre-trip. Outside inspection, inside inspection, and the 3 part brake check.
> 
> I did mine in winter, was about -20* that day. I barely got to the tractors drive tires when I was told I to get in the truck, was too cold to be standing outside haha.
> 
> The driving test isn't bad. It will be even easier with the log reach as it tracks much better, though backing up is a bit screwy if your used to a normal semi truck.



That's exactly what people have been telling me. Maybe I can schedule the driving test for a -30º
morning! haha!


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## 1270d (Oct 26, 2015)

Even if you break even on those loads, you can at least close out that chapter, and possibly gain some more experience with whether you want to be a whiner. Ahem, cough, I mean trucker.


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## Skeans (Oct 26, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> I think I am going to do what 1270 suggested and see if they will let me haul my two loads with the truck and see where it goes from there. Maybe I will buy the thing after all.


I have my cdl permit as well, you still need someone to ride along with you and it doesn't hurt to help you learn the shifting.

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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

It will be a challenge to find someone to ride along. Everyone that has a CDL has to work. Joy riding isn't really in the cards.


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## Skeans (Oct 26, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> It will be a challenge to find someone to ride along. Everyone that has a CDL has to work. Joy riding isn't really in the cards.


You may have to coin up the cash to do the school or go sign on with someone for a while to get it done. I'm in the same boat but we have two trucks just don't have the time for me to learn.

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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

1270d said:


> Even if you break even on those loads, you can at least close out that chapter, and possibly gain some more experience with whether you want to be a whiner. Ahem, cough, I mean trucker.



haha!


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

The school's not happening. For one its 3 hours from here. For two its $4500. It will be Plan B (as usual).


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

They don't offer a couple day course?

Here they have a day or two for a few hundred $$. Pretty much is use of thier truck, a test giver and some practice time.

I went through a 6 week course, 2 weeks in classroom, 4 weeks driving. Was fun. Cost I think was 7 or 8k, but the GI Bill paid it.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 26, 2015)

Maybe. I will have to check a little further.


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## fordf150 (Oct 26, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> I'm not used to any semi. I've moved trucks on the landing after I've loaded them plenty of times and I drove a box dump truck for a week one time two years ago, but I've got no "feel" for the shifting or anything else. It should be an adventure.


That may be a good thing. Not sure how the tests are there but here if you shift without a clutch 3 times it's auto failure. Any real driver doesn't use the clutch except to take off but for the test you have to relearn how to shift and not grind gears or it's auto failure too....double clutching will wear you out and it's almost impossible to do once you master shifting without a clutch.

Our local test facility has a deal that for $300 you can rent there truck and an instructor for 2 hours. They go over every part of the pretrip, maneuverability, and driving sections. Then you pay for your actual test. Guaranteed to pass if you do that. They also offer the 3 or 4 week school for a few thousand dollars.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

Clutch or not doesn't make a driver "real" or not. I know some guys with millions of miles under their belt that still double clutch.
The newer trucks with hydraulic or air assist clutches are super easy to push.


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## fordf150 (Oct 26, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> The newer trucks with hydraulic or air assist clutches are super each to push.



Those and auto trans trucks exist because there simply aren't enough real truck drivers any more. Don't believe me....next time your in the lower 48 visit a a Wal-Mart DC. Bring popcorn and a drink and be ready to watch "truck drivers" spend an hour trying to get backed into a dock in the middle of a 40 acre parking lot


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Those and auto trans trucks exist because there simply aren't enough real truck drivers any more. Don't believe me....next time your in the lower 48 visit a a Wal-Mart DC. Bring popcorn and a drink and be ready to watch "truck drivers" spend an hour trying to get backed into a dock in the middle of a 40 acre parking lot




I won't argue that, but an easier clutch sure is nice over the old setups that needed a good 75+lbs of push. Not all truckers are 275lb 6ft 4 dudes named Tiny.

I know after driving my 81 International for a while and getting in my car I damn near pushed the clutch pedal through the floorboard!

The school I went through (Northern Industrial Training) we spent days and days of nothing but backing up. Straight, offsets, parralel parking, 90*, etc.
They said alot of the "trucker in a week" schools don't teach backing at all.


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## Skeans (Oct 26, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I won't argue that, but an easier clutch sure is nice over the old setups that needed a good 75+lbs of push. Not all truckers are 275lb 6ft 4 dudes named Tiny.
> 
> I know after driving my 81 International for a while and getting in my car I damn near pushed the clutch pedal through the floorboard!


It's lots of fun being 5' 6" and a 130 on a heavy day pushing some of those pedals in but it's part of it. Just be glad it's not a browning box set up.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2015)

The test here is a required double clutch thing... its stupid cause speed shifting is quicker, easier and more efficient, but the state says that the trucks where designed to blah blah blah...

Anyway its not much different than speed shifting, you just have to run the clutch between each gear still have to watch the tach (or learn to listen for it) as 13-18 spd trannys don't have synchros, so the first clutch unbinds the gear your in allowing you to slip into neutral, then you wait for the rpms to match, clutch and slip into desired gear. The thinking is that there is less jerk and strain on the drive train... but if you speed shift it should be smooth, and less strain than clutching. Speed shifting or otherwise known as slam shifting, goes, rev engine slightly to break tension on gears, slip into neutral, wait for R's to match or increase throttle, depending on going up or down, once r's match slip into desired gear, left foot never leaves its position resting casually out the drivers window, sippin a mt dew and spittin yer chaw at oncoming convertables...


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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2015)

Skeans said:


> It's lots of fun being 5' 6" and a 130 on a heavy day pushing some of those pedals in but it's part of it. Just be glad it's not a browning box set up.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Ah the 5 and 4's twin stick mayhem... miss one little gear and its pull over and start all over again.

Hope I never ever have to drive one, the psycho range in the missus is bad enough. 

Speaking of which I missed a gear in Ye Ole Dumber Truck with the missus behind me, some moron tailgating, and on a hill couple weeks ago... wasn't pretty, or quite... Personally I'm surprised the wind shield is still in one piece.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

I miss the 5&4 in my other truck I had actually. Always seemed to have the right gear.
The 9 speed in my truck now... I wish it had a 13 at least.
Log truck, a Ford 8000 also has a 9, same deal. Pulling grades in that, pretty much just hold it at 2000ish rpm and go up at whatever speed cause it won't pull the next gear.


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## Skeans (Oct 26, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> I miss the 5&4 in my other truck I had actually. Always seemed to have the right gear.
> The 9 speed in my truck now... I wish it had a 13 at least.


Both of our trucks are 13 speeds with the 2 speed rear ends, the low side in the rear ends almost never get used though.

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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2015)

My dumper is a 5 with 2 sp rear, its ok since its top speed is about 55, wide open (it'll do 60 but it ****ing scary), But it could totally use something between 2nd-3rd and 3rd-4th. goes from screaming to bog


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 26, 2015)

My brother was looking at buying a 70s International with a 404 gas engine, 5&4 and 2 speed rear.
I'm not even sure why it'd need that many gears! Figure that's 40 forward gear and 8 reverse.


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## AKDoug (Oct 27, 2015)

Having had several of my guys get their CDL's while working for me, I can say that the State of Alaska will deduct only 1 point total for not double clutching. My last two guys looked the examiner in the eye and said "deduct that point now because double clutching is stupid and hard on my bosses truck". Same examiner and he laughed both times, because he agreed. It is worth asking the examiner in your state how they handle it.

Having driven trucks commercially for 28 years, and self loaders occasionally over the last five years, I will say that driving the truck is the easy part. Learning how to use that crane, not tear crap up, and run it safely is WAY harder than driving the truck.


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## Skeans (Oct 27, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Having had several of my guys get their CDL's while working for me, I can say that the State of Alaska will deduct only 1 point total for not double clutching. My last two guys looked the examiner in the eye and said "deduct that point now because double clutching is stupid and hard on my bosses truck". Same examiner and he laughed both times, because he agreed. It is worth asking the examiner in your state how they handle it.
> 
> Having driven trucks commercially for 28 years, and self loaders occasionally over the last five years, I will say that driving the truck is the easy part. Learning how to use that crane, not tear crap up, and run it safely is WAY harder than driving the truck.


I'll agree but I will say at least they are a pilot set up not electric over hydraulic setups that takes a little more to finesse.

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## treeslayer2003 (Oct 27, 2015)

well........i must say some thing here or explode. how many mechanics here? i can tell you this, back when we had detroits around here you would double clutch or you wouldn't get the thing to shift. hardly ever had to put a clutch in and never ever got in a truck with top of the trans all wore out and sloppy. now days 10 year old local rigs have the top end all wore out and the sycros are shot to where the shifter is all over the cab. and its been through 2-3 clutches.
i also do not like the newer button clutch........easy pedal my ass, the old style was easier to push.
when i learned you double clutched and did not grind a gear or the ol man might smack you out the drivers seat. i still double clutch.


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## rocketnorton (Oct 27, 2015)

I learnt clutchless. spent most of 10 yr in a 78 ford 9000, 350cum, 5+4, 44s. neither trans was ever outta that truck. speedo broke @ 3/4m mi. ran in it a few more yr after. ran a 72 kw, 318 & 9513, 2 1/2 yr, also clutchless.
for my road test, I had to double clutch, but bout halfway thru test got on the freeway, forgot all about clutchin shifts, looked over at the tester, he just said go back to the office, ya know what yer doin... backup test & passed. no marks under the shiftin part.
+1 on the easy [and self adjustin] new clutches. tank drills have a air switch for clutch. don't get much easier than that.


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## treeslayer2003 (Oct 27, 2015)

not takin nuthin from you Pete, maybe alot of dudes out there just don't do it right.
that kw, was it aluminum frame? if so we had one just like it. i very much preferred the feel of those clutches..........you can't slip this one in the ford, makes it a bich stretching a pole trailer by your self.


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## fordf150 (Oct 27, 2015)

Turned wrenches most of my life. Owner/operator for several years. 2 yrs at a company with 50 tractors pulling quad axle dumps. 6 yrs as driver/mechanic for a guy with 3 6 axle dumps and a quad dump. 6 axle trucks were 475 cat in 2 of them and 500 Cummins in the other. 18 spd behind the cats and 8LL behind the Cummins. 

Driven correctly there is less wear on the entire drivetrain going clutchless. In most cases if a passenger was blindfolded they wouldn't even know you shifted gears. Shifting correctly without a clutch means no grinding gears, no jerky engagement, no wear on the clutch or bearing since you aren't touching the clutch except when stopped. 

If you feel the shift...your doing it wrong. If gears grind....your doing it wrong


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## Skeans (Oct 27, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Turned wrenches most of my life. Owner/operator for several years. 2 yrs at a company with 50 tractors pulling quad axle dumps. 6 yrs as driver/mechanic for a guy with 3 6 axle dumps and a quad dump. 6 axle trucks were 475 cat in 2 of them and 500 Cummins in the other. 18 spd behind the cats and 8LL behind the Cummins.
> 
> Driven correctly there is less wear on the entire drivetrain going clutchless. In most cases if a passenger was blindfolded they wouldn't even know you shifted gears. Shifting correctly without a clutch means no grinding gears, no jerky engagement, no wear on the clutch or bearing since you aren't touching the clutch except when stopped.
> 
> If you feel the shift...your doing it wrong. If gears grind....your doing it wrong


I'll add in one other thing in a fuller transmission the only synchros are in the back box the front or main box is non synchronized so if a transmission was broke in shifting on the fly shift it on the fly, if a transmission was shifted with a double clutch shift then do that it'll do less wear on the bearings all depends on break in and original driver.

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## AKDoug (Oct 28, 2015)

I do my own wrenching, or supervise one of my guys that's doing the wrenching. My '88 Kenworth got it's first clutch at 750,000 and it's first transmission at just over a million. That truck is still in current service as my equipment hauler, driven by my employees. My current truck got it's first clutch at 500,000, but it lost a transmission at 300,000 due to a blown tranny cooler line that wasn't caught soon enough on a 12 hr long haul in the dark. Had I fixed the tranny temp gauge I would have probably caught it in time too, expensive lesson. 

We're not talking old trucks here, but I can shift a two stroke Detroit without a clutch. It's all in the timing and the ear. I don't like the description of "speed shifting". It has nothing to do with speed. You simply let out the throttle once you reach top RPM (1500 or so in my trucks) and ease the shifter out of gear and move it into the next gear as the RPM slides by where it's supposed to be (usually around 1100 or 1200 on most modern trucks) best done with a one and two count. Slamming it from one gear to the next isn't needed, or desired. For a downshift it's basically the reverse,,,slow down to 1200 or so, take truck out of gear and move it to the next lower gear while increasing throttle to around 1500 . Everything from the 80's on up running a Fuller transmission is served well by not dorking around with double clutching. 

For you double clutching guys. How do you handle the splits in a 13 or 18 speed?


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2015)

Couldn't think of a better term... besides slam shifting which is what teenage morons do to granpa's truck...


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 28, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> For you double clutching guys. How do you handle the splits in a 13 or 18 speed?



Off the throttle, clutch in to break torque, .5 sec pause or so, clutch out, back on throttle.
Little bit tricky when also shifting a full gear, or skipping a gear, or range shifting too.

Eaton still maintains that double clutching is the best method.

One thing I've learned is each truck has its own personality pretty much.


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## fordf150 (Oct 28, 2015)

we have hashed out proper shifting technique but when are we going to get into the proper use of the clutch pedal/clutch brake


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## rocketnorton (Oct 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> not takin nuthin from you Pete, maybe alot of dudes out there just don't do it right.
> that kw, was it aluminum frame? if so we had one just like it. i very much preferred the feel of those clutches..........you can't slip this one in the ford, makes it a bich stretching a pole trailer by your self.



this one was steel, guy I bought my truck from & worked for had '54 kw bullnose, alum frame. have seen few other alum framed kw over the years. those frame rails made nice ramps for small/light equip to get on lowbed. gds.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 28, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> Having had several of my guys get their CDL's while working for me, I can say that the State of Alaska will deduct only 1 point total for not double clutching. My last two guys looked the examiner in the eye and said "deduct that point now because double clutching is stupid and hard on my bosses truck". Same examiner and he laughed both times, because he agreed. It is worth asking the examiner in your state how they handle it.
> 
> Having driven trucks commercially for 28 years, and self loaders occasionally over the last five years, I will say that driving the truck is the easy part. Learning how to use that crane, not tear crap up, and run it safely is WAY harder than driving the truck.




I can run the loader just fine, but the truck is a different story.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 28, 2015)

The Colorado CDL test requires double clutching. No double clutch. No paso amigo.


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## rocketnorton (Oct 28, 2015)

bc does too. the tester in my case realized I mighta done it before, and let it go. 1st time drivin [truck] was @ 12 yo, on a ranch. sticker right on dash instructing on how 2 spd rear was to be shifted w/o clutch. 73 ford f-500.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 28, 2015)

My instructor will realize just the opposite! hehe

I will be required to double clutch or I will be failed. Also, any gear grinding will result in failure. 

Heck, gear grinding is the only thing I am good at when it comes to trucks. The only thing I know about log trucks is that if one loaded with logs drives by I can look up and say; "There goes a log truck.". If the truck is empty I will have to ask someone more knowledgeable than myself if that was, indeed, a log truck.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2015)

Two speed rear can totally be shifted without clutch but its so much smoother to use the clutch... even just a little dusting to ease that gawds awful bang... could be me though, really not much different than shifting the tranny without the clutch, just noisier...

Sometimes I wish my ole dumper could be shifted without the clutch but alas the synchro's are nearly gone, and catching 2nd with the clutch isn't always possible.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 28, 2015)

I'm gonna try to get the ball rolling again on this thing first thing tomorrow. I gotta get with the money man and with the seller and hope it can be made to work.

If the stars align and I end up with this Mack I am in for quite an education. 

The good news is that I live in the sticks and can practice the driving part all day, solo, with little to no worry about having a run in with any LEOs.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 28, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> Also, any gear grinding will result in failure.
> .



When I took my test they told me excessive grinding or coasting out of gear (can't get it in) for x amount of feet would be a fail. Scratching a gear or two here and there isn't a big deal.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 28, 2015)

That's what I was told. Grinding (and coasting) is no good.

I should probably call one of the instructors and get a more accurate account.


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## SliverPicker (Oct 29, 2015)

... miss one little gear and its pull over and start all over again.

Now there's a statement that is not lost on me.


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## AKDoug (Oct 29, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> Off the throttle, clutch in to break torque, .5 sec pause or so, clutch out, back on throttle.
> Little bit tricky when also shifting a full gear, or skipping a gear, or range shifting too.
> 
> Eaton still maintains that double clutching is the best method.
> ...



Well, I guess that's one way to do it. It's so simple to do without the clutch I haven't figured out why guys would bother. Range shifting is handled clutchless for me as well.


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## AKDoug (Oct 29, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> we have hashed out proper shifting technique but when are we going to get into the proper use of the clutch pedal/clutch brake


LMAO... new drivers that get frustrated and jamb that clutch pedal to the floor at 60mph expecting the truck to go into the next gear are HARD on clutch brakes.


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## fordf150 (Oct 29, 2015)

Those 2 piece brakes are life savers


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## northmanlogging (Oct 29, 2015)

The clutch brakes are for 9spd and some 13 spds aren't they? Not sure As I've never dealt with one, but what I've heard is its a secondary spot on the pedal, at the bottom you hit the clutch brake, and its only supposed to be used at a complete stop so you can get the truck into first, being as there are no synchros.


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## treeslayer2003 (Oct 29, 2015)

fordf150 said:


> Those 2 piece brakes are life savers


but its no fun getting the old one off


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## Skeans (Oct 29, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> The clutch brakes are for 9spd and some 13 spds aren't they? Not sure As I've never dealt with one, but what I've heard is its a secondary spot on the pedal, at the bottom you hit the clutch brake, and its only supposed to be used at a complete stop so you can get the truck into first, being as there are no synchros.


Correct they are for a non synchronized transmission, the brakes travel is from 1 inch from the floor and if pushed well at speeds will break the two tangs off the brake or once in a while will twist the input shaft.

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## Skeans (Oct 29, 2015)

AKDoug said:


> LMAO... new drivers that get frustrated and jamb that clutch pedal to the floor at 60mph expecting the truck to go into the next gear are HARD on clutch brakes.


Not just the brakes but also the input shafts.

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## AKDoug (Oct 29, 2015)

`


northmanlogging said:


> The clutch brakes are for 9spd and some 13 spds aren't they? Not sure As I've never dealt with one, but what I've heard is its a secondary spot on the pedal, at the bottom you hit the clutch brake, and its only supposed to be used at a complete stop so you can get the truck into first, being as there are no synchros.


Pretty much every big truck transmission has one. Some you can't feel, but you know they are there if you can easily slip into 1st and reverse from a stop. My old truck with a 10 spd had one, my truck with a 15sp has one.


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