# Long Lanyards ?



## rahtreelimbs (Mar 11, 2003)

I remember reading about some of the members climbing with an extra long lanyard: 30 ft. or so. How do you wrap up the tail if you are only using 10 ft. or so? Daisy chaining the rope seems like it would get in the way. Also do you use the extra length primarily for a second TIP?


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## mikecross23 (Mar 11, 2003)

Seems like it would be too much extra to lug around to me. Never tried it though so I won't bash it.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 11, 2003)

I daisey it up and clip the extrta lops to the back of my saddle.

The guy who teaches climbing at the local tech school will loop it up and stick it in a fat rubber band or a loop of throwline. 

Yep andything extra will snag and get stepped on, but I would not climb without it now. I use it ans a lanyard and a secondary TIP.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 11, 2003)

If I'm not going to need a 30' lanyard in a tree, I will not take it up with me.
I did a small crane removal over a house today, and made up a 30'-35' lanyard/ short lifeline just for this tree. The tree split into two leads at about 15' and both leads grew out relatively horozontal over the house and back yard. I had no central tie-in and had to make due with two lower tie-ins. I used the short lifeline to tie in on the front lead while my main lifeline was still tied into the rear lead (20' away and horozontal to my position). Once the front lead was pieced out I still had my main tie-in on the rear lead.

I think I've used a short lifeline/ long lanyard like this maybe a handful of times in 15 years. Good trick to have but mostly unneccessary the majority of the time. Look at your tree before ascending and decide at that point what ropes/ lifelines/ lanyards you will need. Leave the rest of them in the truck.


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## Kevin (Mar 11, 2003)

I have wondered about using a secured ladder for a tie in where one wasn't available.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kevin _
> *I have wondered about using a secured ladder for a tie in where one wasn't available. *


That sounds like a scary idea. Even the best ladders are only rated at 300 lbs or so, not anywhere near strong enough for MY lil ash to hang my life on. I figure there is a reason we are required to use 5000 lb rated items in our lifeline system. All that is negated if your tie-in is only rated for 300#. I'll hang on a limb any day before hanging my lifeline on a ladder 20'-30' away.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 11, 2003)

Darn creative though.


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## murphy4trees (Mar 11, 2003)

I Am sure the 300 lb. rating of a good lader has a safety factor built in... So in reality the ladder can hold a lot more than that before failing under normal conditions.... However a ladder is not engineered to be side loaded as in your diagram... Using a ladder like that would negate any rating a ladder does have.... 
JUST DON'T DO IT!!!
I Am a big fan of ladders and use them on just about every job... I like to carry 4 or 5 ladders of different sizes on the truck at all times... They are a great tool for ascending and that's it... Once you're up in a tree, a ladder becomes a liability... get it out of the work zone.
I like to think creatively and love the challenges and opportunities to do so that tree work offers.. And part of the process of creative thinking on the job is to know when to scrap the bad ideas... This definitely is one to scrap...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 12, 2003)

That Vulture can't be serious, or his own kind would have found his carrion long ago, such thinking tends to thin the heard.

How is the Ginny?

Now.......wait, if he tied the high end of the ladder to the other lead, and pretightened it aginst the pull of a falling climber, then anchored an inverted "V" line at the top of the ladder and brought the legs back past the climber, then anchored ...........


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## Kevin (Mar 12, 2003)

I agree with the side loading but guys could be added to the upper end for support.
Not to be used as regular routine or working off of but rather in a rare case where the other option might be taking a dive.
I don't have any plans of incorporating it and I don't think you'll see AM adopt the idea, it was just a passing thought.


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## treeslayer (Mar 12, 2003)

I've always wanted a small crane just for climber placement, then picking logs up. a truck crane would do, just to provide a suspension point over the work. it could give a lot of horizontal reach with only a climber on it. ( would'nt you still have to rate the crane load at #5000?) the flip side is, could you derate, since most crotches in the tree obviously aren't that strong? how much would I want? I think I'd want #1000, which is more than the rope at least. (safe load figure), remember, all I want is a point for support.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 12, 2003)

I use a long lanyard and daisy chain the unused part up behind me, like the others. I keep it from unraveling by clipping a carabiner to the last loop in the chain and then to the back of my belt.
This works well because if I need some more length, I unclip, pull out what I need, and reclip the remaining. I'm currently using the fly rope and an aluminum snap, so even at 25 or 30 feet it's compact and light.
I can't imagine climbing with a short lanyard, it would totally limit the maneuvers a guy can use in the tree. 
There seem to be two camps with different climbing styles, one who leave the lanyard clipped to the side and basicly only use it as a safety or spiking up a spar. These guys will use short, thick, three strand or wire core lanyards with steel clips. To picture their style think of climbing a pine, hang only off the climbing line, and use the lanyard only when the boss is looking as a saftey.
Then there is the second camp, they keep a long lanyard attached in the front or design it so it can be moved there easily. When they climb, use the lanyard as a double crotch, often advancing it out in the direction the climber needs to travel, like to the end of a long horizontal branch, to the tree just 10 feet away, or up to a limb which is not in line with his climbing rope. This style climber works trees that are often wider than tall.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 12, 2003)

Good point Mike, 

I have been in large spread live oaks a lot lately and have been using the tail of my climbing line to double crotch. I have an extra 30' piece of Hi-Vee w/ an eye splice on one end. I think I will just make that my new long lanyard/short climbing line!

See ya!!!
-Mike-


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 12, 2003)

I usually keep a 30 ft hank for a lanyard, but have put a 60 ft in before on some monster elms. I look at it this way with the 39 ft hank, it give me around 14 feet of movement from where ever I clip into.

If you are using a tress cord it is nothing to exchange different length lines. 

In the past,I have downgraded climbing lines to lanyards becasuse I had to cut too much off because of a nick, scrape or melt.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 13, 2003)

A couple of years ago I bought a saddle bag off of Sherrill. I really haven't used it that much. I was thinking that it might make a nice storage unit for the tail of a 30 ft. lanyard. It will hold that much rope without a problem if you stuff it in like throw line in a line mug. Has anyone out there tried this?


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## tophopper (Mar 13, 2003)

Rich, I have tried that. I carry on my truck a line mug bag packed full with about 50 ft of climbing line. Inside the bag a split tail rig is all set up and ready to go. 
Like Brian, I will only bring it if I think I may need it.
I carry enough hardware on my saddle, the last thing I need is another 3-4 lbs of rope that I will rarely use. I prefer a shorter lanyard, both ends of my lines are spliced and i carry an extra tres cord, so if I really need a double tie, i can whip one up in about a minute or so.
M maas, I do see the advantage gained by utililizing a long lanyard as a secondary tie in, if you prefer to carry that excess rope with you. I am a very safety minded climber. i have tried longer lanyards and do not care for them. 
I am a little confused by your post, as if your judging a climber's abilities by the length of his lanyard? 
I carry a short lanyard, and am not limited from any manuevers that you or anyone else here can do. 

If you think you will need a second tie in why not just use a line twice the length of what you need and have a hitch tied on both ends, either way your carriying all that excess rope and weight. By utillizing both ends your line, the excess weight is supported by your climbing system. Your carrying that extra weight on your saddle.


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 13, 2003)

*Tophopper!*

Thanx for the advice. I am aiming at the use of a long lanyard to help with my somewhat limited climbing skills. A fellow climber who I work for/with a lot can get thru a tree with just his climbing line for 90% or so of the work. As my skills get better I hope to not have to rely so much on the extra gear.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 14, 2003)

*Just a thought. . .*

My opinion would be to stick with the basics first and learn to get around w/ as little as possible, that way when you don't have the "cheater tool(s)" that you need at a particular moment, you will be able to get by anyway. 

Only a few months ago when I met monkeypuzzle for a rec climb, I busted out all kinds of tools and looked like a walking climbing store. All of my gadgets just got in the way more than not. Watching monkeypuzzle and then Brian opened up my mind to the fact that simple is better for me and I can move around fairly well just using the tail of my rope as a second tie in/lanyard.

I'm not bashing the long lanyard or other "extra gear", but for me It has helped to learn to get by without all of the extra crap. If I don't have what I need, Oh well, I can at least make due with what I've got.

I'm going to make a long lanyard for those large prune jobs after reading this thread.

-Mike-


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 14, 2003)

i used to sit in a tree, looking at rigging options, every once in a while say if i had my rescue pully or slings up here......

Then at some point i calculated that was holding me back in growth and understanding, and that i would progress faster/safer if i had standard toys with me.

So at some point i loded up slings, karabs, rescue pulleys etc.

i commited that i was going to war wwith these devices to assemble in diffrent ways, that i had to get used to carry them.

They have whispered so many secrets to me, especially after the learning curve levels some.

i have used and groan with them in many ways, after years of that boot camping i finally allowed myself to start 'ditching' a few things every once in a while; but to put right back on, for these are my tools, i keep them handy as a gunslingers tool, loaded on my hip.

i'm not into the long lanyards (yet); but i have this experience to share on the frame of mind on the rest, and what it allows you to see.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 14, 2003)

The only reason I can think of to carry 'extra' tools with you into a tree is if you are unsure of what you need to do the job. I am fortunate to not have that happen much any more. I have no problem carrying stuff with me IF I am going to need it. I guess if you are unsure you can grab some extra stuff, put it on a daisy chain or loop runner and hang it in the center of the tree. I own and use blocks, slings, extra long lanyards, etc. etc. etc. They come out when I can see I will need them in a particular climb. If I'm not going to use them then I do not carry them. I usually have all my tie-ins, rigging spots and methods to be used all picked out before ascending.

Mike Cross- Keep in mind that when you saw me climbing it was for fun. I stripped off all the gadgets so I could just enjoy the tree and use my natural abilities to explore it. If I had been working the tree I would have brought the necessary tools with me.

Mike MAss- I reject your insinuation that climbers with short lanyards are neanderthal hacks (or whatever it was that you said). I do not seem to have much problem getting to limb tips using only my lifeline and short lanyard. I guess I consider daily use of an extra long lanyard a crutch for people with less natural ability so they can do what I do.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 14, 2003)

Does anyone else 'Koala Bear' from under a limb to clean the outreaches, using the tension of the lifeline to keep you in check from going any further back, as your body weight positively locks against the line back. In the right conditions, pushing across with medium leg pressure serves to arc you up on the arc of life line extension range at given length. whereby a shorter length from you to support, creates a sharper arcing up, when pushing sideways.

Observing the function of the line tightness and line arc when forced yet restricted by line into arc with my body; si how i visualized and evolved to self tightening rigs, aarcing loads under them, for the line restriction kept them from going straight down.

A lot of my observations are from the point of gymnsastics and climbing in that; i can feel the forces on a rigged load, for i have been a rigged load. i can think well when climbing, swinging that will pull me that way, and turn and feel the twist.

Taking this a step further, any lesson learned in one is looked for the parallel in the other, to expand more with each input and confirm/question running hypothesis. o look at the 2 subjects as one, and feed into and out of a shared pool of knowledge, rather than 2 seperate stacks.

i try to make that extra effort, to dig to the common links/ understandings. Some cast that that is too much energy wasted etc. But i see it as being a lil'lazy; for taking understandings to the next level of understanding where things confirm and reinforce each other, really to me grants much more for the effort. KInda learning about levers with leverage or something!

Many times not taking my chosen war tools with me, confined my growth and power. There was extra weight and i took it on as a commitment to carry it till it was nothing. i do realize the diffrence when unloading belt sometimes; but for me the price of that, has not been to high! i choke about everything with loop runners, my journey in this has brought me to test/screech out best load hitch points etc. by presetting /considering while line is on ground, or hanging 4 and thinking about each as ytou are working res one at a time. They are to me a universal, flexable, proffessionally clean, productive way to go. i might use them for a dozen things.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 14, 2003)

Brian,
Reread what I wrote. I think you might have read something into it. I was comparing climbing styles, in particular, in types of trees, and how the tool is used. I made no mention of climbing abilities, yet you and John took it as an insult, somehow.
Lots of guys climb with short lanyards, probably most guys. It has to be the best. I was just giving my observations.
Could you discribe your lanyard and it's length and components to me? That goes for anyone.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *I can't imagine climbing with a short lanyard, it would totally limit the maneuvers a guy can use in the tree.
> There seem to be two camps with different climbing styles, one who leave the lanyard clipped to the side and basicly only use it as a safety or spiking up a spar. These guys will use short, thick, three strand or wire core lanyards with steel clips. To picture their style think of climbing a pine, hang only off the climbing line, and use the lanyard only when the boss is looking as a saftey.
> Then there is the second camp, they keep a long lanyard attached in the front or design it so it can be moved there easily. When they climb, use the lanyard as a double crotch, often advancing it out in the direction the climber needs to travel, like to the end of a long horizontal branch, to the tree just 10 feet away, or up to a limb which is not in line with his climbing rope. This style climber works trees that are often wider than tall. *


A large portion of my climbing is in trees wider than tall. I hate pines- they are like sappy telephone poles with limbs. For most of the maneuvers where you need your second tie-in, I simply use my balance, my single lifeline, momentum and the natural skills that God graced me with. I do not find it necessary to double crotch very often and I bet I can get around those spread out trees just a little faster than someone messing with double tie-ins. I am not trying to brag. I was blessed with a fairly good natural 'feel' for climbing. I never pursued indoor rock climbing because I topped every run on the advanced wall in less than 2 hours my second trip there. I am not 'limited' in my maneuvers by using a short lanyard.
A 30' lanyard (should be called a second lifeline) is very helpful for people with more knowledge than natural ability. If you are unable to climb out that limb without it, by all means use it. I'll be waiting on the tips. 

My lanyards are not thick, steel core or adorned with heavy steel clips. I have an 8' Blue Streak lanyard with alum. clip.


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## geofore (Mar 14, 2003)

*where is groundman*

You talk as if you work without a groundman or you can't tie a continuous loop and signal the grounman to send up what you need when you need it. What is your groundman doing, sitting on his hands. Independence is one thing but you fail to acknowledge your groundman or that he knows the equipment well enough to send it up to you if you need it. What, you yell lanyard and he sends up a polesaw, you say carbinner and he sends a clevis? I don't see the need to carry everything up with you if the ground crew knows how and what to send up when you call for it. 

Why can't you lay out what you will need and tell your ground man what it is and when you expect to need it so he can pull it up to you when you call for it. This is a team effort to get the tree done and I would expect the groundman to be a part of the team. You don't even acknowledge that you have or need a groundman or that he can help once you are heading into the tree. You carry everything you need with you and don't need anyone else.: end of rant.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 14, 2003)

Look at this drawing(crude). The climber is on the lower branch and needs to stop and do some work the spots where the circles are. With a long lanyard, he could fly out to the tip, safety in and work back, now double crotched in.


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## tophopper (Mar 15, 2003)

Mike- i was not personally insulted by your post, but it does read as if your saying one with a longer lanyard is a more proficient and safe climber than one with a short lanyard. But anyway, not trying to butt heads with you, youve responded well with your drawing of the tree with circled work areas. Even with a short lanyard I would fly out to the tips, buck in when needed, and work back. Your pic shows a high central TIP which we all know is ideal for limb walking.
Ive reattached the same pic, i see the advantage a longer lanyard would benefit in a larger tree. It would be useful to get from either position marked A to get to position B without having to return to the trunk descend down and walk out. This could also be done by, using your tail end, or using a redirect. A redirect must either be retrieved when finished, or left and retrieved when untieing from TIP. 
I know the drawing is rough and far from scale, but it almost appears as if the tree were that big you would benefit more from using a double tie utilizing your tail end because a short 30ft lanyard is really only useful to half that length.

you have inspired me to be more open minded on the subject.
Ive decided to field test a longer lanyard again. Especially on larger trees, but with the variety of work that I do i can not see always having a 30 footer with me. just seems would be too much most of the time.

my current lanyard is made from XTC, I spliced alum. snaps on both ends. Is tied with a 3 up 2 down distal, the tail runs thru the d ring and the dring acts as the tender. The 3 up 2 down distal provides enough friction both ways to function both ways thereby giving me a double ended lanyard. i rarely use both ends though, because I usually SRT on larger trees anyway.

Personally, as far as the rest of what i carry on my saddle;
handsaw, 2 redirects, tres cord, sm fig 8, and 2-3 balllock biners.
After an SRT ascent, I will be also carrying a petzl ascension, and rope man ascender. I also carry a knife(look out Brian ).
Add a chainsaw and lanyard to the mix and Im getting pretty full up on gear.
Then add slings, pulleys , biners for technical rigging sometimes I think i need to wear 2 saddles to carry everything


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## tophopper (Mar 15, 2003)

ooops, heres the attachment i mentioned


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 15, 2003)

i'd say longer leash gave more options than short at a cost of carrying it.

sometimes i just pass a bight of slack lifleine through crotch, and karab loosely to saddle. 

in Tops pic, there are poits where a lifeline so tight would arc you up as you pushed directly away from Support, sometimes this sideways push and leveraging your line is easir than wlaking straight up against gravity.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 15, 2003)

I took John's idea one step farther and labeled the circles 1 to 11. Each number represents an spot where the climber must safety in and do one or more tasks.
I numbered them in the order I would work this tree. See what you think.

To help understand the long lanyard use, imagine the position the climber's in now. I would advance to position number 5, safety in, do my work, then with one hand lengthen my lanyard to position 6 and work that spot. Then I could move to number 7 by lengthening or re-clipping depending on the situation.

Imagine being on number 6 or 7 and having to do some polesaw work. A short lanyard could only be at your feet, not helping much with balance.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 15, 2003)

Ditto to Dan's statement. I use the distel setup for my main life support and for double crotching I carry an extra biner and just use the tail of my life line with a blake's hitch. Works great for me b/c I still have my short lanyard. Tomorrow I have 3 decent sized live oaks to do some minor deadwooding to. Should be good stuff if the weather holds up! 

-Mike-


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## BigJohn (Mar 15, 2003)

I am not a big fan of big lanyards. They have their place when butting down big wood but have no place for prunning. I rarely use a lanyard. The only real need for one is when your getting tied in or recrotching. If you need a lanyard that long then I believe you need to start thinking of a better way. Get some balance, improve your strength and learn the 3 point stance. 

I was just recently given a length of rope a snap and two thimbles. The rope had to be 20 feet long and he wanted me to make a lanyard for him. I had to call him back and ask how many lanyards he wanted me to make with all this rope. His thinking is that if he cuts one end he can flip it around. My thinking if you cut one end get rid of it and get a new one. It's only rope.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 15, 2003)

Bigjon, 
I assume you're tugging at my chain, but in case you're not... 

Refer to the drawing, you need to work at number 5 or 6. You don't use a lanyard?

http://arboristsite.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=80941


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 15, 2003)

I'd do it like almost every tree I climb. I'd start at the top and hit 1, 2, 3 and 4. Then I'd drop down and use 8, 7 and 6 as footholds/ steps on my way out to 5. Lanyard in at 5 and cut. Drop back down to hit 6, 7 and 8. Then get a good swing out to 10, use it as a step to lanyard in at the fork and cut 9. Then cut 10 and swing back to the trunk and drop down to 11. Parachute rapel to the ground and toast my tres cord. Smile.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 15, 2003)

i use lanyard religiously for failsafe working. Also for anti sway function on end of long arc of main support lifeline. Also nice V pocket betwixt the 2 to sit in sometimes. Round turn with it and you don't need a crotch as a positive mechanical stop on support.

On pic,

i might.......

Put extra auxilary support line above 2, 5 in inverted U( or less friciton support, just 5)

Hit 8,7 maybe using auxilary line to V, especially with belay, run write out there!

Hit 4,1 Maybe leave line at 4-9

Auxillary line from 2 or 5 gives 6,

Get belay help to 5 if needed, self or ground,

Maintain weight on main lifeline, share enough to influence your support/direction to auxilary with auxilary.

Plot if i can pendulumn from betwixt 7-8 to betwixt 10-11, how much extra would it take to get to ~10+, could extra draw of auxilary at 4-9 add enough distance or stall for me to get handhold or lanyard (i like carrying it over my right shoulder, raise my hand shoulder high, palm open like i'm giving up, and flick it with my finger and send it boomeranging around spar and back to left hand) on, maybe even crotch 9? Can i get run, throw massive bodyweight and immense high weight of chest forward to add to force for sweep? Am i slick enough to push off trunk as i go by? Mmmmmmm how much drag can those guys give me on that auxillary line....... oi get my legs hooked around her and not too much tightness on my lifeline she's mine, ican throw chest forward and stick long enogh to wrap lanyard, or trow into crotch, especially with auxilary line helping that should all stack up.....


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 15, 2003)

This thread is more informative that I ever thought it would be!



Thanx for all the great replies. .....Please keep them coming.


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## murphy4trees (Mar 16, 2003)

Big Jon ain't lying or tugging chains and I've got the video tape to prove it... He always caries a lanyard, but when pruning rarely uses it, as he prunes almost exclusively with a hand saw... He's done some amazing (in my thinking) climbing moves, 3 point stance style, and rarely leans on his rope. First time I ever saw someone adjust the friction hitch with his feet as he used both arms to pull up to a new position... (got that on tape too). 
Just watching him climb a couple of times has made a big difference in my climbing style... Now that I know what is possible... I can give it a try myself... 
So thanks Jon for expanding my world....
PS.. Are you ever gonna let these guys in on the Turner Twist or is that proprietary info...
I gave them a hint in the knut hitch thread but no takers http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=8093...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 16, 2003)

It sounds like Big John and Brian have similar climbing styles, and it works for them. That's what I was getting at when I talked about two different camps. One camp tries not to use ropes, the other tries to always use ropes. Not that one is better than the other, or both can't be used.
At the climbing competitions they want you to saftey in at each work station, to me that makes sense and is what I shoot for. It's also an ansi requirment.
As far as working with your handsaw with out safetying in, I think that falls into the same catagory as one handed chiansawing, ascending a tree with one rope(free climbing), or other questionable techniques. I try to play by the rules and I'm not slow by anyones standards. I also have a family, home, and other thing I don't want to lose because of risks taken at work.
So trust me, when someone tells me they don't safety in, it doesn't impress me. Orphans and widows, right Tom.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 16, 2003)

Mike-
You seem to be changing the theme here. Your original assertation was that the long lanyard helped you get around the tree and people who didn't use a long lanyard were limited in their maneuverability. Safetying in was not the issue. I usually do not need a second tie-in to maneuver my way around but I safety in with my lanyard whenever I'm running a chainsaw near my lifeline. These are completely different topics and you might confuse people by swapping back and forth in the same thread.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 16, 2003)

I didn't switch Big Jon and murphy talked about working without a safety. Now you seem to insinuate that you only safety in "whenever I'm running a chainsaw near my lifeline". So my comments seemed appropriate.

When I argueed that a long lanyard offered more options than a short one, you guys said I was wrong because you can just bring up the tail of your rope, find a tres cord, 2 carabinners, and a fair lead pulley, and set up a double crotch. That's doing the same thing, just with a slightly different tool.

Brian you kinda glossed over my question about working at number 5 and 6. It's a good illistration of what I'm talking about, you can clearly see the advantage of a double crotch in those spots. Just moving from 5 to 6 and not having to unclip and be vulnerable to a fall and swing into the tree.

We both did the tree in the same order, didn't we?


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## BigJohn (Mar 16, 2003)

There are situations where I wouldn't just walk up to 5 and 6 and keep my original tie in or not lanyard in. In most cases though I do not. I too have a family, chilldren and home. I've done a lot of crazy things in my past and too a lot of chances with my life. I can remember a time I would visit the ER regularly. 

There are many ways of doing what we do not any one thing is right. I too at one time liked a long lanyard. From working with others and picking up new techniques I've come to not rely on it as much. I'm just comfortable with what I am doing. I find if I don't put much thought into it it will come natural. 

Big John


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## rahtreelimbs (Mar 16, 2003)

I have seen guys climb like BigJohn describes: It boggles my mind how people climb so effortlessly with minmal use of safety equipment. I guess it boils down to what works for you and how confident you are. I don't know that I will ever reach that level of confidence. But I will give it my best shot and have a heck of a good time trying. As for now I go I will stick to lanyard use. I will explore the the long lanyard.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 16, 2003)

Confidence could be the death of me. I'll deflate my head think straight and stay double tied when necessary.


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## BigJohn (Mar 17, 2003)

Maybe you can use that spare biner to tie a munter next time and come down on that when chunking down that spar if your using a tag line to pull them over.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 17, 2003)

Very good Mike stay working FailSafe, 2 connections. i bring 3 (LifeLine redirct/short support) just in case myself.

"You are going to war, ....always have a backup; ....2 is 1, and1 is none" Screaming DI to troops in GI Jane.

Practice and maintain the action of needed gear deployment till it is nothing to do; if it takes so much time to swing lanyard around someting and click it in home; maybe you haven't done it enough to make it that shmooth i would always tell myself. Get somnething down like that that you can fire pre-loaded like a gun slinger.


Without voiding my lifeline's capaccity, readiness to catch me soon, i will use a rigging line for posstioning ease and speed. In a pulley, going to a rigging point. Set rig in upside down U, you can set lifeline in a 3rd zone. Work 1 zone, have 1 end of rig pull you to next, then let uther end of "U" rig pull/help to other side, and finally swing to under lifeline pivot and work that zone, or something like that! Look around use anything of power you can, just keep the safetey on i think. Just because we never use rigging gear for safety, i don't rule it out for making things easieer and safer, by stacking it on top of the safety procdeure. Sometimes that is even ussing a rigging loop runner for more stability, when still using lifeline.

Using this, i might mini notch the upward corner on baackside of to-be blocked, drape rigging line over to front, clove on back, place travel in mini-knotch on to corner edge of chunk. Then when lifelined to spaar low, i can use this (muenter in like BigJohn) for sawing the face comfortaably, then disconnect and guys have pull line.

Even if that load is leaning or whatever, past determining direction, any extra force will either make the chunk move faster (more force) or make it flex more hinge (less force), by bending with more fibre holding in hinge, depending on how much BackCut. i think a cut slowly giving to pulling pressure on hinge is best to deliver with most guidance and lowest force riding on hinge, wether felling, chunking, rigging sideways, rig pulling up etc. Using the hinge longer and stronger graants more control over ddirection and force. For least shock i think the load shoud ride the hinge as long as possible, with as much hinge. Placing the line over the top puts it in aboulutely the best location for leverage on the hinge to affect this, by challenging it more, to make it stronger in response. The diffrence of a load seperating at 1:30 or 4o'clock from the hinge can be immense. Also any force on hinge is 1xForce on spar, force on pulley support line is 2x at same point on spar!

The AM sponsor's technique about using the lifeline as support to more comfy service face, precuts in a SRT (though you can't set rigging's lacing cuz LifeLine goes under it)with bowline choked around spar and then pull bowline open remotely and let lifeline slide down on below facing where it goes anyway is pretty slick. But, you can't preset the lacing with it (cuz LifeLine goes under it, and there isn't a pull ine left for aiding in rotating the chock as far as possible on the hinge to reduce ShockLoading to the rigging system.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *Does anyone else 'Koala Bear' from under a limb to clean the outreaches, *



With me it is more like a sloth...


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeclimber165 _
> *
> A 30' lanyard (should be called a second lifeline) is very helpful for people with more knowledge than natural ability. If you are unable to climb out that limb without it, by all means use it. I'll be waiting on the tips.
> *



Well a flipline is a safety so if it is 5 or 50 feet it is a life line of sorts. I do refer to it as a secondary TIP.

I don't understand why people need to take differenaces in style as personal attacks????

IMO the longer flipline gives me a better mobility in bigger trees. Why would I want to pull arounf a double end to just move around a few more feet.

with a 5ft lanyard I need to reclip to move much, with a 30 ft I can move around 14 ft away from the connection point.

BTW Brian I got bot the smarts and the ability, and I'll outclimb your scrawny tail any day it is under 70*


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *BTW Brian I got bot the smarts and the ability, and I'll outclimb your scrawny tail any day it is under 70*  *


Yer on, big guy! How's Baltimore in November sound? Now I got TWO dance dates for the Expo! {smoooooch!}


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *
> I don't understand why people need to take differenaces in style as personal attacks????
> 
> *



That's simple. The ego of the climber is so huge, to even suggest there might be a different way, is a direct insult. Every climber I have ever met is the best climber in the world, until he climbs with someone better, then he's second best until the better climber can't hear him any more, then he's best again.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *
> I resent the fact that Mike is trying to turn the long lanyard or no long lanyard into a black and white issue. I'm sure we all double crotch at times........and that's the same thing as using a second long lanyard. Using a second long lanyard doesn't make you a better climber or even a safer climber. I don't carry a second long lanyard because I carry enough gear already.......and the tail of my rope is always handy. I carry a spare biner and nothing else for double crotching.
> 
> ...



I'll say it again, I don't think a long lanyard makes you better or safer. Where did I turn it into a black and white issue? 

I am not suggesting carrying two lanyards, just a longer one for wide trees.

Why do some climbers FREAK OUT about having gear on there belt that they might not use? Dan carries a spare carabinner and nothing else, like a tres cord and pulley would slow him down. And with those two tools he could do a much more efficient set up. I would also get rid of the micro acsender and replace it with a tres cord, but that's another thread.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 18, 2003)

i saw one climber around here.......

His ego was soooooooooooooooooooo Large;

The Postal inspector,

Gave the Climber's ego,

It's own ZipCode!



i can learn from anyone, even if jsut re-enforcing what i know to do, or not to do;

Let alone a new outlook or technique, or some beautifully, deceptively simple alteration, polishing or alignmeant to further evolve something.

One time i had a climber that was already tops when i was crawling up; that had straightened me out when i was around him some, ("here your gonna hurt yourself like that, do it like this") Blow me away all day (well.......almost.......), Long legged MF'r 2 steps and 50' up the tree , kinda tick ya off! i can't do that, i stand up and my legs just barely touch the ground, and don't go that high either! He did some standardized kidding 'round these parts about stuff on my belt, ya know the Ace HardWare comments........

About the last 2-21/2 hrs., everything was clear for paths etc.; on my main project, lines left here and there, som in oter trees i had serviced. And after some rigging, body swinging etc. He came flying down from his tree as i desceneded; hand out shaking mine, and his head. Said some nice things, he was around when i started; i had been showing him new toys, knots, making lanyards and tails in balanced return for a while by then. Lots of stuff in large units came down butterfly light to open zones it is fair to say.

Climbing to a point ain't all of it; there is a lil'hinging, rigging and assembling it all 4 chess moves ahead with smooth transitions sometimes.

Like what you can do with 15 extra minutes with a few throw lines on the ground while another climber is already in the air kinda laughing at you. It can come out OK every once in a while.............


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 18, 2003)

Well before i was trying to say that,

Any force can only exert as much,
positive or negative energy,
on something else,
as is resisted or taken on.

"The Tao of Physics" F. Capra

Proved it with my lady too......

And if my buddy and i do another job together sometime; i imagine we will do the same as the last time. Share the work, knowledge and passion; in each other's strengths and knock the chit out betwixt us the best way wee can.

:alien:


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## Herkfe (Mar 18, 2003)

*As longs as we are talking about lanyards....*

With all this great dialouge about lanyards and different methods of tying infor spar removals, etc. I would like to know if anyone out there is using the "Friction Saver Prusik". 

Seems like an interesting concept, although I must admit I'm not 100% sure exactly how it functions if a spar were to split. I do like the idea because of the stiffness of the FS for flipping.

Thanks!

Pete


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *That's simple. The ego of the climber is so huge, to even suggest there might be a different way, is a direct insult. *



All I've ever said about myself is that I'm above average. Oh .... and better the Brian


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2003)

*Re: As longs as we are talking about lanyards....*



> _Originally posted by Herkfe _
> *With all this great dialouge about lanyards and different methods of tying infor spar removals, etc. I would like to know if anyone out there is using the "Friction Saver Prusik".
> 
> Seems like an interesting concept, although I must admit I'm not 100% sure exactly how it functions if a spar were to split. I do like the idea because of the stiffness of the FS for flipping.
> ...



With this setup, your attached more like the oldschool method, so that the D's of your saddle wont spread apart. You stay attached to the spar, like a bug on a log, but the pressuer is on the climbing rig only, not you and the saddle.


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## Herkfe (Mar 18, 2003)

*The lightbulb just went on!*

Thanks John, I was just looking again at the picture of the FSP and finally the light went on in my brain. 

I kind of like the safety aspect of it but I was wondering about the prusik action on the FS too until I compared my older BH to a newer one. The newer ones are not as wide but thicker. More square construction should allow decent prusik grip. And I love the flourescent orange color on the large ring side. It's the little things that make a big diffeence.

If anyone is using one....please give us your impressions!

Pete


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *I can't imagine climbing with a short lanyard, it would totally limit the maneuvers a guy can use in the tree.
> There seem to be two camps with different climbing styles, one who leave the lanyard clipped to the side and basicly only use it as a safety or spiking up a spar. These guys will use short, thick, three strand or wire core lanyards with steel clips. To picture their style think of climbing a pine, hang only off the climbing line, and use the lanyard only when the boss is looking as a saftey.
> Then there is the second camp, they keep a long lanyard attached in the front or design it so it can be moved there easily. When they climb, use the lanyard as a double crotch, often advancing it out in the direction the climber needs to travel, like to the end of a long horizontal branch, to the tree just 10 feet away, or up to a limb which is not in line with his climbing rope. This style climber works trees that are often wider than tall. *


Mike- The above quote is what irritated me. If you read it again you might be able to see where someone wouild take it as an insult. To insinuate that I only lanyard in when the boss is looking or when gaffing up a spar is insulting. To insinuate that I am not qualified to climb trees that are wider than tall is insulting. The entire post is insulting.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 18, 2003)

Brian, I'm sorry you are insulted. I should have left out the part about the boss looking. 
My point was this: one style of climber doesn't double crotch off his lanyard, the other does. Now, keep in mind, I'm not talking about a certain percentage of the time, I'm mean in general.
I am trying to discribe different styles of climbing. I have seen a lot of guys climb, there really are two common styles, I 'm not saying one is better. 
The crack about the boss looking was to get across the idea that the lanyard is not often used to aid in moving around or positioning, but more of a saftey requirment, in this style of climbing. I mentioned a pine tree to reflect a tree that is tall and thin so your TIP is directly above your head. In this type of tree you would not use a long lanyard.
If how I discribed this first type of climber is not like you, then don't take it personally, it discribes many climbers I have seen working. They tend to use a free climbing style to move around, almost never having their ropes tight, just there in case of a fall, or perhaps the climbing line is used when decsending or limb walking, and rarely if ever double crotching.
I have seen guys who climb and trim out a tree and their lanyard never gets used once. I didn't mean the boss looking thing to be a jab at you or anyone specific, just a realistic veiw of many climbers I have watched.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 19, 2003)

I try to take Mike's posts as smart @ss sarcastic humor, kind of like you would kid around w/ a buddy. Doesn't bother me any.

-Mike-


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 19, 2003)

> * smart @ss sarcastic humor, kind of like you would kid around w/ a buddy.*




One of the problems with this form of communication is that we have no visual signals to let the recipient know that there is a bit of humor involved. 

Facial expressions and body language play such a large part in spoken conversation.

When we convert our speeking style into the writen form we risk gross misunderstanding if a little more thought is not put into it.

(One of the things I find entertaining is that some of the people most easily offended are ones most likely to offend.)

Another aspect of this is where my problems with grammer and syntax make me look like an baject idiot to those who first read my postings. But then I never worry about such things :jester:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 19, 2003)

As well ya shouldn't;
especcially as your most charming point!
 

Sar-chasm? 

What is that? 

A trap you fall into when not looking all around?

Would not considering all options,
looking at all faces, 
be an exercise in powerful rigging/climbing?

To honestly, deeply look at something;
and realize what actually stands against you,
and that which helps.

........Or SomeThing like that!

:alien:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 19, 2003)

I reeally never intended to insult anyone... 

Could it be that you are reading more into my posts than I intended? I still don't see how I was so insulting in this thread.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 19, 2003)

Mike, you're a bulley! 

JK 
MC


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 19, 2003)

I sincerely apologize if I insulted anyone, Dan $ucks, and if I did, let it be known that it was not intended. I think sometimes people misread a post, so does Mike, and are offended.

I was at a job interview once and was asked if I lean on my rope when I climb. I couldn't understand the point of the question, I thought everyone leaned on their rope when they climbed. Since then I have noticed this not to be the case.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## treeclimber165 (Mar 19, 2003)

I guess I'm more like the climbers Nathan described rather than the type climber Mike described. I only carry a short lanyard and usually do not use it for maneuvering around the tree. I already have a lifeline and use it practically like a third leg. I am leaning against my lifeline probably 80%-90% of my time in a tree and find that it provides me with just about all the maneuverability I need.
Since I do not strip out trees I usually have plenty of handholds and footholds around me. On stripped out trees like Mike's drawing I just take bigger swings.
Thanks to the suggestions I've heard here, I've switched from an adjustable flipline type lanyard which doubles back on itself and uses a prussik (Sherrill #27611) to a straight 8' lanyard with an alum. clip on one end and a Distel hitch and biner on the other end. I tied the open end of the lanyard back on the biner to keep it from pulling out of the Distel hitch.


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