# Timber Theft In Pa



## Klaar (Nov 24, 2008)

This may be the wrong forum; too bad.

3 years ago a logging company took timber off the 50 acre tract adjacent to my 10-acre piece. To make a long story short, they cut down 63 of my trees "by mistake". I was referred to a local law firm with experience in this area. I sued for double or treble damages for the value of the sawlogs plus cleanup costs.

Eventually I learned that I should have sued for the replacement cost of the trees (or the largest replacements possible).

My question is this: Does anyone know of a lawyer or law firm licensed to practice in Pennsylvania, who may have the experience and hunger to handle this case? I wish to sue for damages for loss of shade and enjoyment of the land, inluding the death of remaining trees and the choking out of the understory by multiflora rose and other garbage plants. I need someone who is willing to break new legal ground; someone who is hungry and also will work for a percentage of the eventual reward.

Please help.


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## ktm rider (Nov 24, 2008)

You could call your states Attorney General and his/her office can tell you what you want to know. They can not give legal advise but they can refer you to competent law firms that have handled this particular type of case in the past.


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## lxt (Nov 24, 2008)

Klaar, there are time constraints as to how long after you can file suit, so make sure to file before time runs out.

as far as replacement value???? im not to sure that would get you the most $$$, I am assuming these are trees in a wooded area & not trees around your house or in a maintained area...this may impact the monetary value considerably!!

I would think neglect, destruction of private property, criminal mischief, etc.., also what is the $$ amount in damages equal too? could change classification (misdemeanor to felony).

sad thing is most Atty. will want up front cash, did you have your property surveyed, was property markers visible, was every tree a healthy tree, did you alert them where your boundaries were, truth is your neighbor may be more to blame than the loggers......burden of proof will be on you to show intentional & purposeful neglect........could it have been just a mistake, accident, boundary mixup, etc..... intent means alot!! & is hard to prove!



LXT..................


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## Bushman_269 (Nov 24, 2008)

What was the result of your original lawsuit? Has it been resolved, settled or tried in Court? If so, you may be out of luck for having elected your remedy. You generally cannot sue for the same wrong twice. I don't know what the statute of limitation period is in PA for such suits but you may be pushing on the time limit to commence a lawsuit before you are time barred from doing so. Contact an PA attorney who specializes in such actions right away to find out what rights you have. You can call your local bar association for recommendations on members who handle those kind of cases. Do it soon and best of luck with it.


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## lxt (Nov 24, 2008)

whoops...after re-reading your post, you said 3 yrs ago!!

statute of limitations within the commonwealth of PA usually only give you upto 2yrs to file suit!! you are probably SOL......sorry


LXT...........


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 24, 2008)

This is the site for consulting arborists and you can search for ones that expert witness.

http://www.asca-consultants.org/

They should know effective lawyers in your area, and be able to tell you if you still have a right to remedy.

As stated above, if you've already been to court, you may have to live with what you've got. It is worth talking to someone.

If you could have gotten more on amenity valuation, maybe you can sue your legal counsel for malpractice


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## Husky137 (Nov 24, 2008)

lxt said:


> did you have your property surveyed, was property markers visible, was every tree a healthy tree, did you alert them where your boundaries were, truth is your neighbor may be more to blame than the loggers......burden of proof will be on you to show intentional & purposeful neglect........could it have been just a mistake, accident, boundary mixup, etc..... intent means alot!! & is hard to prove!



I think he is probably SOL as well. He had his day in court and sounds like he was compensated for timber theft. I doubt they will let you go back to the trough for another meal. Replacement cost is going to be an impossible sell for forest trees anyhow.

As for the burden of proof in timber trespass, it is the responsibilty of the logger or the landowner of the property being cut, not the neighbor. Timber trespass laws and harvesting laws are pretty clear on the subject here in Mass. I doubt they differ much in PA.


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## Klaar (Nov 24, 2008)

Great replies, all. Thank you!

Currently we are waiting for a bit of information from the defendants, then with luck within a few months we'll ask to have the case listed for arbitration, which I believe is the usual course for complaints under $50,000. So no, I have not had my day in court.

I thought the statute of limitations here was 7 or 5 years.

I collected $11K from the fool who was mainly responsible for the cutting, $3K from an unconnected company who bought some of the timber lying on the ground, and just last month $10K from my homeowner's insurance company (the replacement cost I submitted was $75K but the maximum payout was 5%of the limit of liability on the structure.) The lawsuit I filed asks for about $27K more from the defendants - this includes damage to my driveway from logging trucks.

The defendants have already admitted in deposition to the act, but they say it was accidental due to a communication failure between them. The main defendant is a scumbag; a liar very good at killing woods and getting timber to the mill, but quite unintelligent where it matters.

The trees were technically in a wooded area, but one with wide, grassy walking paths. I had just bought the place and had planned treehouses, evergreen plantings, haunted hikes, campsites, hayrides and general enjoyment that a landowner could expect. These activities have been scrapped. LXT, you can see why I need an attorney with balls who is not afraid to push. 

This was not an isolated forest, but one next to and around my home. It is my XXX landscape and I don't need anyone telling me it is merely a forested area valued only for the market price of the sawlogs!


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## Husky137 (Nov 24, 2008)

Good luck trying to convince a court that 63 trees on a forested parcel were landscape trees. 24K is a quite a substantial pay-out for such a small number of trees, especially with such a depressed log market right now, even at triple damages.

You don't need an attorney with balls, just one without ethics.

Indeed, you should have sought out the repairs on your driveway in the initial suit, but why were logging trucks using your driveway?


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## custom8726 (Nov 24, 2008)

Husky137 said:


> Good luck trying to convince a court that 63 trees on a forested parcel were landscape trees. 24K is a quite a substantial pay-out for such a small number of trees, especially with such a depressed log market right now, even at triple damages.
> 
> You don't need an attorney with balls, just one without ethics.
> 
> Indeed, you should have sought out the repairs on your driveway in the initial suit, but why were logging trucks using your driveway?



X2!!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 24, 2008)

Klaar said:


> I thought the statute of limitations here was 7 or 5 years.




Limitations that long are usually for criminal acts. Civil actions usually have a much shorter limit.


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## Metals406 (Nov 24, 2008)

You can get nailed for $700 a tree here... Happened to my bro-in-law... 63 trees would make $44,100.00!!

Yikes!:jawdrop:


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## Husky137 (Nov 25, 2008)

Metals406 said:


> You can get nailed for $700 a tree here... Happened to my bro-in-law... 63 trees would make $44,100.00!!
> 
> Yikes!:jawdrop:



Is that a fine or compensation? Most timber theft laws also have the ability for the governing body to fine the wrong-doers quite substantially.


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## Klaar (Nov 25, 2008)

I think Pennsylvaia is a tree thief's paradise. There is little or no case law one might use to effectively burn the thief down in court. That's why I want to find someone who wants to blaze a new trail.

As far as convincing a court that the 63 trees were "landscape trees": do any of you actually know how PA law defines landscape trees versus forest trees? If I had that knowledge it may help me along here.

I granted access over my 1200 foot gravel driveway in return for certain improvements. The improvements were never made; the cost of said improvements were included in my complaint.

Husquy137, what do you mean one without ethics? Are you mad? the defendant in this case is working all over the state, I hear. His crews rape the land. Trees are yanked out without an iota of concern for the forest's future. They remove every last marketable tree. What's left are skinny, weak, bent, submissive, pathetic, and dead trees. Bark injury is rampant. The forest is flooded with hot sunlight. The surviving trees are baked and wind-whipped. Caterpillars and borers move in opportunistically and finish them off. Then there's more dead trees. There's no seeding of skid trails. It looks like a XXX bomb went off, or maybe like a fire swept through. This guy has pulled this type of #### many times before. I've been in contact with Sam Rohrer's office and the attorney general. They know of this guy. Many of his victims are gutless and don't want to get involved. So it takes a lawyer WITHOUT ETHICS to help take the thieving forest-killers down and maybe save a lot of heartache and deforestation in the state? That's a new angle to me.

If the statute of limitations is two years, I may be screwed. Only an attorney could tell me for sure, right?


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## Climbing Cutter (Nov 25, 2008)

It sounds like you already got paid pretty good.


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## Metals406 (Nov 25, 2008)

Husky137 said:


> Is that a fine or compensation? Most timber theft laws also have the ability for the governing body to fine the wrong-doers quite substantially.



Compensation for the value of each tree... No fine included.


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## Dalmatian90 (Nov 25, 2008)

> I granted access over my 1200 foot gravel driveway in return for certain improvements.



So you knew about the logging in advance?

Did you at least learn to walk your property lines with the neighbors before such projects in the future?

I think you'll be hard pressed to get more money then the actual value of the trees -- and actual value is what they were, timber. You may have had plans for treehouses and everything else, but unless they were in actual use for those purposes such value is merely hypothetical. It would be akin to you suing someone for the value of house since they stole the lumber you planned to build it with.


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## (WLL) (Nov 25, 2008)

all im hearing is you just want to sue fer money. or the bit of free money u already got has turned you greedy and you will sue anyone over anything. i am surprised too hear so many on your side. you talk a good story about stopping these people from destroying the earth, but i aint buying any of that! good luck


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Nov 25, 2008)

In this state you can sue for double or triple stumpage depending on the conditions surrounding the trees. Triple shows intentional theft and double is unintentional. You won't get anything more just because you had "plans" for the trees.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 25, 2008)

I understand that in MI you can seize their equipment in trespass with damage.

Value is in the eye of the beholder, if you say it is timber value only, then you don't have a clue yourself. 

Say someone came in and tore your garage down, by accident. They said it was old, they should not have to pay replacement value, but the value of the structure as it stood. You would not agree, would you?

There is consideration for amenity value in the law too. As Klaar states we just need more precedence in case law. if a merchantable tree is 30-50 years old then Klarr may never see the property returned to the state in which he purchased it.

I think he needs to contact a good RCA, who can put him in touch with attorneys who are interested in changing property law. I'll bet the offending company has a history of crossing boundaries.

Oops, sorry, it was just an accident!

I think a Cost of Cure with long term maintenance is the way to go.


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## ATH (Nov 25, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> ....Value is in the eye of the beholder, if you say it is timber value only, then you don't have a clue yourself. ....



Yes...BUT, in this case, value is in the eye of the law (where it should be).

The question is can you get the 'law' to recognize these as "landscape" trees vs. "timber" trees. Plantiff calls consulting arborist who testifies about their landscape value. Defendent calls consulting forester who determines they are timber. Unfortunately, I doubt "plans" change the value from timber to landscape... I don't say that because I don't want to see a timber pimp nailed to the wall (I would like nothing more), but because I wouldn't want somebody's expectations to be too unrealistic.


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## secureland (Nov 25, 2008)

It's not always easy to get cooperation.

A logging theft occurred here. The landowners were absentee and lived in California. The logger knew it and went in and logged it. The FBI even got involved and got no help from the locals. The guy was never charged.


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## treeseer (Nov 25, 2008)

ATH said:


> I doubt "plans" change the value from timber to landscape...


In fact, the appraisal Guide refers to "intended use", so yes, it can.

did you contact ASCA yet?


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## ktm rider (Nov 26, 2008)

Klarr,

I tried to PM you back but it seems that you are not allowed to recieve PM now. ?


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## Husky137 (Nov 26, 2008)

He appears to have been banned.


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## ktm rider (Nov 26, 2008)

Husky137 said:


> He appears to have been banned.



Why? I read all the post he made and I didn't see any reason for him to be banned? I could be wrong though,,


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## Husky137 (Nov 26, 2008)

Beats me.


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## Klaar (Nov 26, 2008)

I received 2 infractions for using a bad word. I didn't know I did anything wrong.

What is the ASCA?

What is an RCA?

Please unban me, I promise not to use any naughty words or versions of naughty words.


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## showrguy (Nov 26, 2008)

i hate for this to be my 1st. post...... but, i live in central Pa. also (on 12 acres)....
you gave the logger rights to use your driveway ? you only have 10 acres ?
your missing 63 trees ? and you had no clue whatsoever what was going on ?????????????????
something just don't add up ???
sorry..and you want 75 grand ?


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## Blakesmaster (Nov 26, 2008)

Klaar said:


> I received 2 infractions for using a bad word. I didn't know I did anything wrong.
> 
> What is the ASCA?
> 
> ...



Wait. We're not allowed to swear? I know they've bleeped a portion of my vocabulary but I didn't think I could ever get banned for it.


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 27, 2008)

Definition of a forest from "Dictionary of Natural Resource Management" by Julian Dunster

"In the narrow technical sense, a vegetation community dominated by trees and other wood shrubs, growing close enough together that the tree tops touch or overlap, creating various degrees of shade on the forest floor."

I would be of the opinion that this was a forest stand rather than a number of individual amenity trees. However, a forest can have many non-timber values, such as wildlife, fish etc. As noted, the difficulty is getting a judge to accept these non-timber values and then putting a monetary value to them.


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## Klaar (Nov 27, 2008)

I guess I'm not banned.

What is the ASCA?
What is an RCA?

showrguy, I don't know what you are dancing around. Get to the point. 

BTW, I have a journal seventeen pages long, a file containing an inch of documents, videos, pictures, witnesses, and a survey and evaluation from a highly-regarded forestry consultant company. I could talk for days to try to explain why and how the driveway access came to be, and how it relates. It's just not relevant.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 27, 2008)

Blakesmaster said:


> Wait. We're not allowed to swear? I know they've bleeped a portion of my vocabulary but I didn't think I could ever get banned for it.



Read the Terms Of Use agreement. Each infraction given has a point value which adds up temporary banning. Usually a few days. A few jerks have been banned permanently, but you have to work at it. 

Bee-itching about the moderators will get you banned too.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 27, 2008)

BC WetCoast said:


> I would be of the opinion that this was a forest stand rather than a number of individual amenity trees. However, a forest can have many non-timber values, such as wildlife, fish etc. As noted, the difficulty is getting a judge to accept these non-timber values and then putting a monetary value to them.



If they came in and clearcut your hunting land?

How many times have you heard the neighbors complain when you did a brush clearing for a client and now there is unobstructed views? One of my primary contractors crossed a lotline, by his clients direction, and got sued for around $50k. It settled for $12k and his insurance only covered a small portion.

The funny thing is that his Consulting Arborist looked at stumps and such and found an improvement in value, they hired a landscaper to determine replacement value of screening material. That which was cut was mostly invasive scrub.




> What is the ASCA?
> What is an RCA?



ASCA





http://www.asca-consultants.org/

RCA is a Registered Consulting Arborist. The have a pretty tough test to take, then a board exam.


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## nametrux (Nov 27, 2008)

*Klarr*

We really like to see pics. on this site. Judgeing from all the documation you have on thic subject I feel you must have some pic. you could post for us to see. Thanks.


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## treeseer (Nov 27, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The funny thing is that his Consulting Arborist looked at stumps and such and found an improvement in value, they hired a landscaper to determine replacement value of screening material.


That's not funny, that's hilarious! Putting a negative value on plants might show huge species bias, and lack of understanding about contributions.

The RCA test comes after a 3-day, $1000+++ workshop, and is not hard. after that 3 reports get reviewed. No other exam. Not easy but not hard on content.

If you're in SE PA then there a couple of good RCA's nearby.

Read your state statute; here's NC's. If it says shrubs have value, that throws out the timber value criterion, imo.


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## Klaar (Nov 28, 2008)

I would love to post pics of the scarred land. Now the hard part is jamming that chore up above my other priorities. I'll do it ASAP.

I want to thank you guys for answering my questions and giving me guidance.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 28, 2008)

> That's not funny, that's hilarious! Putting a negative value on plants might show huge species bias, and lack of understanding about contributions.



What value to invasives give to a landscape? To the encroached party it was purely screening. My client had cleared them out to allow natives more room to grow and to install more native plants.

What value do you give a wall of kudzu and wisteria in your area?


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## jefflovstrom (Nov 28, 2008)

I can not believe this is not an audition for Judge Judy! 
Jeff Lovstrom


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## Husky137 (Nov 28, 2008)

jefflovstrom said:


> I can not believe this is not an audition for Judge Judy!
> Jeff Lovstrom



I think her show has a pretty low judgement cap.:chainsawguy:


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## Klaar (Dec 2, 2008)

*Photo*

View attachment 83182


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## trimmmed (Dec 2, 2008)

What are we looking at there?


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## (WLL) (Dec 2, 2008)

i see a bunch of water loged chit sticks. most look to be dead or about dead sue happy money grubberS

i could be way off a pic does not show the whole story and will hide any detail.


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