# Building My First Mill



## 820wards

I've decided that building a mill would be a fun project with the possibility of making lumber for my dad and friends to play with. Attached are a couple of pictures of the powerhead I'll be using. It's a never fired 820 PowerBee motor and I'll be using a 38" bar for starters. I had to make the clutch drum from two different drums to get what I needed to fit the motor. (see pictures of drum) I machined the aluminum blocks that hold the bar to the frame and will work on adding the oiling port to the bar for oiling. This model of motor was used on the old Montomery Wards saws never had an internal oilers, they used a manual pumps. I'm planning to use the pump from a large manual oiler I have found for the operator end of the mill and a drip system for the nose.

My next stage is to make the framework for the mill. I have a friend who manufactures custom aluminum pieces for high rise construction who has given me the OK to dumpster dive his scrap aluminum bin for any aluminum I want. Once I have built the frame I will work on fabricating the gas and oil tanks.

So what do you all think, am I nuts???

jerry-


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## woodshop

Would never say you're nuts, lots of entrepreneurs and gadget builders on this forum. What cc is that motor though... you need at least 75cc for milling anything over 18 inches, and if your going to be using most of that 38" bar, even that won't really be enough.


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## Ianab

Looking up the specs on that little engine... 134cc and 10 hp.

So it's on the same level as a Stihl 090  


Personally I would have gone with a vertical shaft 4 stroke for any sort of fixed chainsaw mill, but lot of guys mill with 2 strokes smaller than that  

So .. not crazy, keep us posted on how it works  

Ian


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## BobL

Ianab said:


> Looking up the specs on that little engine... 134cc and 10 hp.




Specs I saw (ha!) at http://www.pittauto.com/pinfo/powerbee.asp said 10 HP was MAX HP. Tuning and operation for continuous operation said 6.5 HP at 7000 rpm so closer to half the operating HP of an 090 

Real difference is less than half the weight 13.2 lbs compared to 30 lbs! - although weight is not really significant for a fixed mill. 

Recommended continuous max revs are also only 7000 rpm. A better power for weight for chain speed engine would be an 066 with 7.1HP at 9500 rpm weighing in a 16.5 lb would probably give a significantly faster cutting speed.

Still not a crazy idea, the 134 cc should mean is lasts longer than a smaller engine.


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Specs I saw (ha!) at http://www.pittauto.com/pinfo/powerbee.asp said 10 HP was MAX HP. Tuning and operation for continuous operation said 6.5 HP at 7000 rpm so closer to half the operating HP of an 090
> 
> Real difference is less than half the weight 13.2 lbs compared to 30 lbs! - although weight is not really significant for a fixed mill.
> 
> Recommended continuous max revs are also only 7000 rpm. A better power for weight for chain speed engine would be an 066 with 7.1HP at 9500 rpm weighing in a 16.5 lb would probably give a significantly faster cutting speed.
> 
> Still not a crazy idea, the 134 cc should mean is lasts longer than a smaller engine.




I'm using this motor because of my experience with these motors and to see just how good it will perform.

The motor has never been fired so it will be fresh. The stock carb and intake on the old Wards saws were a 7/8' bore and intake. I'll be running a 1" carb and intake. I'm also thinking about running a tuned exhaust. There is a guy on Sonoma, CA that builds them for go cart racing who can get an additional 2hp with his exhaust. Now if that's not enough power there is a company that makes a stoker kit for these powerbee motors that will boost the cubic inches to 10c.i. Lots of torque. I'm hoping to be in the 10-15hp range when I get the motor completed. 

Hey, I'm 55 and retired and this is just a toy I'm building. I was just at my friends ranch today looking at seven 30" Blue Oak tree that PG&E cut down below their high power lines that I hope to mill at some point in time. I'm going back next week to paint the ends to help avoid checking. I have been reading some of the threads from some people who are milling and most say that West Coast Oak is no good for making furniture. I'm planning to make out door benches and tables to reside under deck covers. 


Attached is a picture of my 1967 Wards/PowerBee chain saw with a cannon 30" bar. I just cut up a big Oak in Sonol last week that was hit by lightening two years ago. This saw has been updated with electronic ignition, carbon fibor reed valves and a 1" intake/carb. The chain is a chisel tooth that Art Martin has been teaching me to sharpen. It made short time of that big tree.

This milling is all new to me so I'll be asking questions time to time from those of you who have much more experience milling lumber. 

jerry-


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## woodshop

820wards said:


> This milling is all new to me so I'll be asking questions time to time from those of you who have much more experience milling lumber.
> jerry-


Well you came to the right spot to do that


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## stonykill

*its the torque!*

I mill exclusively with old saws, and until 6 months ago, exclusively with under 60 cc saws. Here is what I learned. Its not all about chain speed. If you have an old torque monster saw, the torque will mill the log just fine without fast chain speed. 
I've milled 22 inch birch logs with a 48cc stihl 031, 24 inch bar lp chain. It worked fine. I've milled maple(started at 30 inches in diameter) and oak with a 60's vintage Pioneer Holiday, 58cc's, 24 inch bar, lp chain. They both milled slow, but I got them milled. Running an old saw engine like you are, the low end grunt that these old saws produce will do the job. I personally, if I had that saw, I would mill with it.
Now my milling machines are a pair of Pioneer P51's (81 and 82 model years if I remember correctly) each on a seperate mill, to speed up the milling process (each mill preset to a different thickness). These are 82 cc's, low end grunters. They both run 24 inch bars and lp chain. 
Build it, it will work, and work well, I'm sure of it.

(all my saws, and milling attatchments combined cost me less than a new 660 or 395)


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## 820wards

stonykill said:


> I mill exclusively with old saws, and until 6 months ago, exclusively with under 60 cc saws. Here is what I learned. Its not all about chain speed. If you have an old torque monster saw, the torque will mill the log just fine without fast chain speed.
> I've milled 22 inch birch logs with a 48cc stihl 031, 24 inch bar lp chain. It worked fine. I've milled maple(started at 30 inches in diameter) and oak with a 60's vintage Pioneer Holiday, 58cc's, 24 inch bar, lp chain. They both milled slow, but I got them milled. Running an old saw engine like you are, the low end grunt that these old saws produce will do the job. I personally, if I had that saw, I would mill with it.
> Now my milling machines are a pair of Pioneer P51's (81 and 82 model years if I remember correctly) each on a seperate mill, to speed up the milling process (each mill preset to a different thickness). These are 82 cc's, low end grunters. They both run 24 inch bars and lp chain.
> Build it, it will work, and work well, I'm sure of it.
> 
> (all my saws, and milling attatchments combined cost me less than a new 660 or 395)



Stoneykill,

Thanks for you input. I figure this mill will cost me around $600 when I'm all done. I can't believe the stuff people are willing to give just to see this thing work. I have a friend who called me Sunday who has seven Blue Oaks he wants me to mill for him, and he wants to pay me for the work. I'm doing this for fun not profit.

Say, Are you anywhere near Watertown? I have a brother-in-law who lives there.

thanks
jerry-


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## stonykill

820wards said:


> Stoneykill,
> 
> Say, Are you anywhere near Watertown? I have a brother-in-law who lives there.
> 
> thanks
> jerry-



Not really, Watertown is at least 3 hours away. I'm 35 miles southeast of Albany, only 5 miles from the mass border, at the edge of the Berkshires.


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## 820wards

*Built My Oil Tanks Today*

Finally had a chance to work on the oil tanks for the mill today. I made them from two aluminum tanks. The tanks originally contained a cleaning chemical for flushing air-conditioning systems when a compressor burns up. I was very pleased how they turned out. First I had to machine the aluminum bung-fittings to be welded to the tanks. As for the gas tank, I have one end cap welded on, but I'm waiting for the aluminum gas cap/fitting to come that I ordered. Should see that this week. I'll post pictures of the gas tank when I finish welding it together. I measured the gas tank for capacity and it's 44 ounces. Do you guys think that will be enough capacity for my 134cc motor? 


My next steps will be to start fabricating a nose protector for the bar and the fitting for oiling the nose of the bar. I'm planning to use a mechanical pump for oiling the bar on the power-head end and a drip feed system for the nose. If the oiler I'm planning to use for the mill works out good I just may add one for oiling the nose end of the bar. I was also able to purchase aluminum uni-strut for the rails and will be adding them to the mill next week. I'm really trying to keep the weight down on the mill.


jerry-

_I post the remaining pictures in a second post._


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## 820wards

*Aluminum Oil Bottles*

Last two pictures of oil aluminum bottles.

jerry-


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## big daddio

man, you csm guys are hardcore, does my heart good, and i've seen what caliber of lumber ya'll turn out.........great stuff.............carry on!


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## BobL

820wards said:


> I measured the gas tank for capacity and it's 44 ounces. Do you guys think that will be enough capacity for my 134cc motor?



Should be OK for gas as that is bigger than any regular CS I know of.

In terms of oil, I find that around 20 ml (2/3rds oz) per minute of oil at both ends of the bar works well for everything except perhaps Hardwood logs bigger than 30".
At this rate a single 44 oz = 1320 ml tank will feed your regular and aux tanks for 33 minutes of continuous milling ie more than enough.


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## DRB

Jerry 

Nice fab work.

Wish I had the tools to weld aluminum.


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## zopi

DRB said:


> Jerry
> 
> Nice fab work.
> 
> Wish I had the tools to weld aluminum.



LOL! Wish I had the skills...:censored:


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## DRB

zopi said:


> LOL! Wish I had the skills...:censored:



I got the skills but not the cash


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## parrisw

Nice work, looking forward to updates.


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Should be OK for gas as that is bigger than any regular CS I know of.
> 
> In terms of oil, I find that around 20 ml (2/3rds oz) per minute of oil at both ends of the bar works well for everything except perhaps Hardwood logs bigger than 30".
> At this rate a single 44 oz = 1320 ml tank will feed your regular and aux tanks for 33 minutes of continuous milling ie more than enough.



Bob,
Or until I run out of gas...

Thanks for the data.
jerry-


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## 820wards

DRB said:


> Jerry
> 
> Nice fab work.
> 
> Wish I had the tools to weld aluminum.



My engineer Dad taught me to gas weld when I was 10yrs. old and I started tig welding aluminum in 1975 when I was crewing on a race car team. Seemed like something aluminum was always needing to get welded. Thanks for the complement. I'm also luck that I have a friend who has a business that has a dumpster of surplus scrap aluminum that I can get whenever I need something. Dumpster diving for aluminum... 

jerry-


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## 820wards

DRB said:


> I got the skills but not the cash



DRB,

I see in you quote that you have a 365 Special,

"365 Special, ProMac 70, 088 Magnum"

My neighbor just gave me one that he doesn't use any more and it's in great shape. The only problem with the saw is he left fuel in it for three years and couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it to start. I cleaned the tank out and fuel filter, but I think the carb is gummed up. I know one of the kids that works at our local lawnmower shop and he's going to come by tomorrow to pick it up and rebuild the carb. I'd just as soon as pay him to do it on the side vs me spending time trying to do it my self. He said it tricky just to get the carb out. Do you have an owners manual for your saw? 

jerry-


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## DRB

820wards said:


> DRB,
> 
> I see in you quote that you have a 365 Special,
> 
> "365 Special, ProMac 70, 088 Magnum"
> 
> My neighbor just gave me one that he doesn't use any more and it's in great shape. The only problem with the saw is he left fuel in it for three years and couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it to start. I cleaned the tank out and fuel filter, but I think the carb is gummed up. I know one of the kids that works at our local lawnmower shop and he's going to come by tomorrow to pick it up and rebuild the carb. I'd just as soon as pay him to do it on the side vs me spending time trying to do it my self. He said it tricky just to get the carb out. Do you have an owners manual for your saw?
> 
> jerry-



Jerry

I do have an operators manual. My saw is only about 3 year old.

Ryan


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## 820wards

DRB said:


> Jerry
> 
> I do have an operators manual. My saw is only about 3 year old.
> 
> Ryan



Ryan,

Does it list part numbers for the various pieces of the saw. I just may call on you via email for part numbers for the saw. I have no manual.

jerry-


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## DRB

820wards said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Does it list part numbers for the various pieces of the saw. I just may call on you via email for part numbers for the saw. I have no manual.
> 
> jerry-



I only have the owners manual and it does not have a parts break down or part numbers for anything. It does have some recommendations for bars and chains. Your Husqvarna dealer should be able to get a parts breakdown for you.

Ryan


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## user 19670

You might PM me to see if I can help you


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## olyman

DRB said:


> I got the skills but not the cash


cash???? CASH??????? whats that????


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## slabhead

*repair manuals*

Here's a link to the factory service/repair manual for your 365. very complete w/ pics for only $5 download. I just downloaded manual for my H2100.If you have trouble paying by following the BUY IT NOW links, PAYPAL DIDN'T recognize that I had an item to pay for,so I just went to SEND MONEY, sent $5 to :[email protected] after checking the "goods" circle,then emailed Scott & told him why I sent him money-he immediately posted the link for the manual,which I downloaded, saved as PDF File,then printed.That was during normal working hours,he may not be there after hours,as I just followed the same steps for my 365 Special manual, & he hasn't posted link yet-duh! 2AM!WAKE UP! FYI all:he has manuals for most saws. I have no affilliation-just tried him after exhaustive Google search.Hope this helps.


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## slabhead

*mill*

820ward: would you consider building an aluminum mill,w/o oiler, for a 42" bar?


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## 820wards

slabhead said:


> 820ward: would you consider building an aluminum mill,w/o oiler, for a 42" bar?



Slabhead,

I am not familiar with the larger saw that would be used for milling, and if they have the capability to increase the oil flow to the chain which you would need when milling dried wood. The mill I'm building is using a power-head that does not have an internal oiler so I'm adding a manual pump to oil my bar as I mill. It will be a duel port pump with a check valve so I will be able to oil the power-head and nose end of the mill simultaneously without getting air in the lines.

So to answer you question should you oil the nose? Yes I would!

Long bars don't come cheep and a nose oiler can be fabricated or purchased and added to you bar pretty easily. If you do a search for bar nose oilers you will find one that a very experienced miller from Texas built for his mill real inexpensively. 

jerry-


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## 820wards

slabhead said:


> Here's a link to the factory service/repair manual for your 365. very complete w/ pics for only $5 download. I just downloaded manual for my H2100.If you have trouble paying by following the BUY IT NOW links, PAYPAL DIDN'T recognize that I had an item to pay for,so I just went to SEND MONEY, sent $5 to :[email protected] after checking the "goods" circle,then emailed Scott & told him why I sent him money-he immediately posted the link for the manual,which I downloaded, saved as PDF File,then printed.That was during normal working hours,he may not be there after hours,as I just followed the same steps for my 365 Special manual, & he hasn't posted link yet-duh! 2AM!WAKE UP! FYI all:he has manuals for most saws. I have no affilliation-just tried him after exhaustive Google search.Hope this helps.



Slabhead,

Thanks for the info. Sorry getting back to you so late. Been remodeling a bathroom on the honey-do list. Almost done.

jerry


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> Nice work, looking forward to updates.



Well, I had time today to do some more work on the mill. I welded up the aluminum gas tank that I will be using on the mill. I also changed the rails I was using to some aluminum uni-strut. BobL suggested that I be sure to add additional center rails to keep the saw blade level when I come to the end of a cut. BobL, I added two because I will be using them for mounting a second handle for when I have a helper working with me. I'm getting some aluminum brackets sheered at my brothers shop that I will use to bolt the two braces to the uni-strut.

Making the handles for the operators to hold the mill, throttle linkage, a nose/clutch guard and an exhaust pipe, two oil lines/pump and I'll just about be done. I'll post more pictures as I add more to the mill. 

jerry-


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> Well, I had time today to do some more work on the mill. I welded up the aluminum gas tank that I will be using on the mill. I also changed the rails I was using to some aluminum uni-strut. BobL suggested that I be sure to add additional center rails to keep the saw blade level when I come to the end of a cut. BobL, I added two because I will be using them for mounting a second handle for when I have a helper working with me. I'm getting some aluminum brackets sheered at my brothers shop that I will use to bolt the two braces to the uni-strut.
> 
> Making the handles for the operators to hold the mill, throttle linkage, a nose/clutch guard and an exhaust pipe, two oil lines/pump and I'll just about be done. I'll post more pictures as I add more to the mill.
> 
> jerry-



Really nice work, you need some rep.

Will


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> Really nice work, you need some rep.
> 
> Will



Will,

You gotta help this old guy... What is "rep."?

jerry-


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> Will,
> 
> You gotta help this old guy... What is "rep."?
> 
> jerry-



Its reputation, your rep on this site. On the left side of the page near the top in the green bar, click on User CP, that will tell you your rep points, and all the rep you have recieved. To give someone rep you click on the "scales" under the persons name on the left side near the bottom of the post.


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Nice. I REALLY want to learn how to weld aluminum. I guess I need a TIG first...


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## MotorSeven

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Nice. I REALLY want to learn how to weld aluminum. I guess I need a TIG first...



Nah, a mig with a spool gun will do it........i am looking for one for my millermatic 210 so one of these days i can weld AL. 
RD


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## 820wards

MotorSeven said:


> Nah, a mig with a spool gun will do it........i am looking for one for my millermatic 210 so one of these days i can weld AL.
> RD



If you can mig weld, I would say go that direction first. Then, look at what you need to weld, is it thick or thin? Mig welding thin aluminum can be pretty tricky on thin materials and it must be clean weather you are mig or tig before you start welding and I recommend your mig welder be using gas. I think they make flux core aluminum mig wire, but don't know how good it works. I only use pure argon gas and sometimes helium for fancy aluminum welding.

Now, if you are a GOOD gas welder then I would consider a water cooled tig welder. An air cooled tig welder has a tendency to blow through when welding thin metals because you need more air pressure to cool the tig torch. The plus for a tig welder is the preciseness of the welds you can make on ferrous and non-ferrous metals, you can even weld copper when you get good. A good tungsten size to start with is 3/32", I find I can weld about 99% of what I want with that size. I have tungsten ranging from .020" - 1/8" in pure tungsten for ferrous and 2% for aluminum. 

Some personal advise is practice, practice, practice on some scrap pieces before you start welding on your good pieces. 

jerry-


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## BobL

Jerry, good work on the tanks, are you going to polish them up - huh - huh - go on! they will look really good :biggrinbounce2: 

Make sure the caps attach really tightly. My brass aux oiler cap came off while I was milling and dropped onto the WOT chain and was flung into my face guard - it was like being hit in the face shield with a baseball.


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Jerry, good work on the tanks, are you going to polish them up - huh - huh - go on! they will look really good :biggrinbounce2:
> 
> Make sure the caps attach really tightly. My brass aux oiler cap came off while I was milling and dropped onto the WOT chain and was flung into my face guard - it was like being hit in the face shield with a baseball.



Bob,

I have a friend who has some polishing wheels, so we are thinking of polishing them and then having them powder coated in a clear color. There is a place not 10 minutes from where I live that does powder coating. Maybe a nice bright clear green. The stuff is tough and won't scratch as easily as anodizing. 

As for the caps, I was planning to put a short chain on them with a spring spreader on them like the older saws used. Good call!

jerry-


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## BobL

820wards said:


> Bob,
> 
> I have a friend who has some polishing wheels, so we are thinking of polishing them and then having them powder coated in a clear color. There is a place not 10 minutes from where I live that does powder coating. Maybe a nice bright clear green. The stuff is tough and won't scratch as easily as anodizing.


Sounds ideal! 



820wards said:


> As for the caps, I was planning to put a short chain on them with a spring spreader on them like the older saws used.


Good idea.


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Sounds ideal!
> 
> 
> Good idea.



Worked on the mill some today. 

* Added gusset bracing on the main rails.
* Support tube for mounting gas tank and one oil tank. (Black)
* Fabricated shroud for nose of bar from aluminum and will mount on piece that clamps the nose of the bar. I will be adding tabs that will use nut-zerts for bolting the shroud one and off for easy access when changing chains, etc.

Going to work on the brackets that will hold the tanks on tomorrow, shouldn't take long.

jerry-


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## Dai Sensei

Looks great. Keep up posting the pics, I'm really intersted in how it all comes together.


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## user 19670

820wards said:


> If you can mig weld, I would say go that direction first. Then, look at what you need to weld, is it thick or thin? Mig welding thin aluminum can be pretty tricky on thin materials and it must be clean weather you are mig or tig before you start welding and I recommend your mig welder be using gas. I think they make flux core aluminum mig wire, but don't know how good it works. I only use pure argon gas and sometimes helium for fancy aluminum welding.



By definition *MIG IS inert gas welding*. Wire feed is what you call flux-core welding.
No gas, not MIG.


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## 820wards

Dai Sensei said:


> Looks great. Keep up posting the pics, I'm really intersted in how it all comes together.



Worked on the mill again today. I mounted the polished oil tank that my buddy wanted to do. Now he wants to polish the other oil tank and the gas tank. Built the nose safety shield and mounted it, then I added the deflector pieces for each side of the bar. It was a beautiful day for working out in the garage.

I'll be working on tubing for holding the oil pump and throttle next and will do the exhaust last. For those of you currently milling, what would be the best direction to have the exhaust pipe face. The exhaust port on this motor when operating is on the bottom of the motor, so I can shoot it out and to the left of the motor. Should I also aim it down as well, or will it blow dust/dirt all over?

Enjoy the pic's, I'll post a few sets.

jerry-


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## 820wards

820wards said:


> Enjoy the pic's, I'll post a few sets.
> 
> jerry-



More pic's.

jerry-


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## 820wards

820wards said:


> More pic's.
> 
> jerry-



Last pic's.

jerry-


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## MotorSeven

Very good job...let's see the chips fly!
RD


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## 820wards

MotorSeven said:


> Very good job...let's see the chips fly!
> RD



Hopefully pretty soon.

jerry-


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## aggiewoodbutchr

Sawdust????

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## DRB

820wards said:


> Worked on the mill again today. I mounted the polished oil tank that my buddy wanted to do. Now he wants to polish the other oil tank and the gas tank. Built the nose safety shield and mounted it, then I added the deflector pieces for each side of the bar. It was a beautiful day for working out in the garage.
> 
> I'll be working on tubing for holding the oil pump and throttle next and will do the exhaust last. For those of you currently milling, what would be the best direction to have the exhaust pipe face. The exhaust port on this motor when operating is on the bottom of the motor, so I can shoot it out and to the left of the motor. Should I also aim it down as well, or will it blow dust/dirt all over?
> 
> Enjoy the pic's, I'll post a few sets.
> 
> jerry-



If I was pushing your mill with the motor to the right I would shoot the exhaust to the right and down slightly and maybe even back a little. I would not want to let it hang to far bellow the bar so that it won't run into the ground or saw horses if your supporting the log especially when you get to the last few cuts. 

Nice job with the build so far. 

Thanks for the pics


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## 820wards

DRB said:


> If I was pushing your mill with the motor to the right I would shoot the exhaust to the right and down slightly and maybe even back a little. I would not want to let it hang to far bellow the bar so that it won't run into the ground or saw horses if your supporting the log especially when you get to the last few cuts.
> 
> Nice job with the build so far.
> 
> Thanks for the pics



Here is a picture of the motor. The exhaust will be facing the ground so it's already where I want the exhaust. The blue tape is the exhaust port so I can build the header pipe to go in any direction I want. Thank you for the input. I have seen other posts where the exhaust is on the front of the chainsaws and mufflers needed to be modified to keep the saws from over heating. I will be building the header from stainless steel thin wall tubing.

jerry-


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## DRB

820wards said:


> Here is a picture of the motor. The exhaust will be facing the ground so it's already where I want the exhaust. The blue tape is the exhaust port so I can build the header pipe to go in any direction I want. Thank you for the input. I have seen other posts where the exhaust is on the front of the chainsaws and mufflers needed to be modified to keep the saws from over heating. I will be building the header from stainless steel thin wall tubing.
> 
> jerry-



I would put a 90 on that outlet as quick as possible and shoot it to the right and back. 

How large will the header exhaust system be?

My chainsaw blows the exhaust back at me if I am milling into the wind. The exit port on the muffler blows towards the mill. Your rear exit should be good just be sure to leave room for ground clearance.


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## 820wards

DRB said:


> I would put a 90 on that outlet as quick as possible and shoot it to the right and back.
> 
> How large will the header exhaust system be?
> 
> My chainsaw blows the exhaust back at me if I am milling into the wind. The exit port on the muffler blows towards the mill. Your rear exit should be good just be sure to leave room for ground clearance.



** The exhaust port is 1" X 2-3/4" with rounded ends. I have some 3/8" SS plate that I will cut out a flange with my plasma cutter and then make the header tube with some 1-1/4" thin wall SS tubing. I'm planning on making a muffler system that will allow the motor to RPM without too much back pressure, plus add a SS screen as a spark arrestor. I'm sure it will take some trial an error to get an exhaust that I like.

** With this mill I will be on the left side of the log, so from your experience in milling I would want the exhaust to blow down and to the left and maybe angled out a bit. I will be easy to do since I'm building the exhaust from scratch. 


Thanks for the input, I've gotten a lot of good information from everyone.


I had to order the oil pump today so it's going to be a few days before I can start building the oiling system for the bar. Wait until you see the oil system I'm going to make, it will be oiling the drive end and the nose at the same time.


jerry-


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## BobL

Jerry, I have been following your developments and it sure is looking goo but I have worked out what's missing from your mill - it has no handles on it - well none that I can see anyway?

Now I know folks have made crude Alaskan mills with a CS, a plank and a couple of bolts but long term comfort milling requires good handles and good handle placement. Sure you can push on the mill frame itself but after playing around a fair bit with a wide range of handles I would not even think about going back to pushing on the frame itself. Good handle placements should allow you to take on a more upright stance so that you don't have to bend over too far.

Regular CS have a significant handle in the trigger/throttle zone, and one in the wrap handle, and it is normal to place a horizontal and/or vertical handle across the mill itself. For any logs bigger than about 20" in diameter I found hanging onto the trigger with the left hand and the mill handle with right led me to take on a wide stance which gave me an aching back and shoulders.
So that's when I went for remote throttle on the wrap handle - this closes the shoulders and makes the hold and stance much more comfortable.

Unfortunately I note you have your tanks right at the location of the regular wrap handle so before you progress too far you might want to think about where you are going to place your handle and throttle.

Cheers
BobL


----------



## slabmaster

Yea, i was going to say the same thing,no handle.The best place is to have a round bar from upright to upright,which will help support the bar uprights.That will make for a bar with less flex or bending during milling.It will help offset the weight of the mill on the bar. Hope this helps,Mark


----------



## 820wards

BobL said:


> Jerry, I have been following your developments and it sure is looking goo but I have worked out what's missing from your mill - it has no handles on it - well none that I can see anyway?
> 
> Now I know folks have made crude Alaskan mills with a CS, a plank and a couple of bolts but long term comfort milling requires good handles and good handle placement. Sure you can push on the mill frame itself but after playing around a fair bit with a wide range of handles I would not even think about going back to pushing on the frame itself. Good handle placements should allow you to take on a more upright stance so that you don't have to bend over too far.
> 
> Regular CS have a significant handle in the trigger/throttle zone, and one in the wrap handle, and it is normal to place a horizontal and/or vertical handle across the mill itself. For any logs bigger than about 20" in diameter I found hanging onto the trigger with the left hand and the mill handle with right led me to take on a wide stance which gave me an aching back and shoulders.
> So that's when I went for remote throttle on the wrap handle - this closes the shoulders and makes the hold and stance much more comfortable.
> 
> Unfortunately I note you have your tanks right at the location of the regular wrap handle so before you progress too far you might want to think about where you are going to place your handle and throttle.
> 
> Cheers
> BobL




Morning Bob,

Your right there is no handles yet. I'm waiting until I get my oil pump system installed before I install the handles. I saw your pictures of how you throttle the saw motor. Since I need to oil the chain manually I have been pondering the idea of which hand to I want to operate the throttle and which hand will do the oiling. Since this machine is going to really need two people to operate, I'm planning on making the oil pump lever extend to the helper side with it's own lever to pump oil. That way either person can pump oil while milling.

The frame that is used to attach the motor gives me a lot of flexability for adding brackets for mounting handles. I can add brackets where ever I want to attach handles which I plan to make from aluminum. I don't have a mandrel bender at my home so I will be taking it down to a shop where I can bend the tubing at the proper angles. I have though about the ergonomics of operating the mill and will be making the handles so when operating my helper and I will not be bending over towards the middle of the mill to push. _(Bad for the back) _I saw your video clip of your mill in operation and plan to angle the log so that gravity is working for me.

Today I need to take my empty argon bottle to the welding shop for a full bottle and the wife is home today so I'll be running around with her and then off to the welding shop. I have to weld some aluminum this weekend for one the vintage NASCAR's I work on so I must have a full argon bottle. 

jerry-


----------



## DRB

820wards said:


> ** The exhaust port is 1" X 2-3/4" with rounded ends. I have some 3/8" SS plate that I will cut out a flange with my plasma cutter and then make the header tube with some 1-1/4" thin wall SS tubing. I'm planning on making a muffler system that will allow the motor to RPM without too much back pressure, plus add a SS screen as a spark arrestor. I'm sure it will take some trial an error to get an exhaust that I like.
> 
> ** With this mill I will be on the left side of the log, so from your experience in milling I would want the exhaust to blow down and to the left and maybe angled out a bit. I will be easy to do since I'm building the exhaust from scratch.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input, I've gotten a lot of good information from everyone.
> 
> 
> I had to order the oil pump today so it's going to be a few days before I can start building the oiling system for the bar. Wait until you see the oil system I'm going to make, it will be oiling the drive end and the nose at the same time.
> 
> 
> jerry-



Sorry about that I meant to the left but was thinking right for some reason? I guess its been to long since I used my mill. How sad.


----------



## 820wards

*Manual Oil Pump*



820wards said:


> ** The exhaust port is 1" X 2-3/4" with rounded ends. I have some 3/8" SS plate that I will cut out a flange with my plasma cutter and then make the header tube with some 1-1/4" thin wall SS tubing. I'm planning on making a muffler system that will allow the motor to RPM without too much back pressure, plus add a SS screen as a spark arrestor. I'm sure it will take some trial an error to get an exhaust that I like.
> 
> ** With this mill I will be on the left side of the log, so from your experience in milling I would want the exhaust to blow down and to the left and maybe angled out a bit. I will be easy to do since I'm building the exhaust from scratch.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input, I've gotten a lot of good information from everyone.
> 
> 
> I had to order the oil pump today so it's going to be a few days before I can start building the oiling system for the bar. Wait until you see the oil system I'm going to make, it will be oiling the drive end and the nose at the same time.
> 
> 
> jerry-



Hi Guys,

Got my oil pump in Thursday so I spent today fabricating the brackets for mounting the manual oil pump. I think it's going to work real good. I'll be using check valves at each end of the bar so that I don't get air in the lines as the pump returns to the top. I even machined a stop limit for the arm so that I don't damage the plunger in the pump during operation. My next step will be to machine/fabricate the pieces for the oil hole at the nose of the bar and at the drive end. With the pump installed I can now start fabricating the bars for holding the mill and for mounting the throttle.

The pump is a clutch master cylinder from a 1981 Honda Prelude. It has a 5/8" bore and a 1-1/4" stroke. It's mounted on 1/8" aluminum with a 1/4" x 3/4" x 10" arm. I did bore the two mounting holes out to 3/8" so I can keep my maintenance tools consistent with the other nuts/bolts on the machine.

See attached pictures.

jerry-


----------



## BobL

Looking good jerry! Very professional looking.

I presume the oil will be allowed to flow even without the pump? Given your tank is a reasonable height above the bar you should be able to get away with just gravity feeding of the oil for most situations but having a pump will help esp when you get towards the bottom of the oil tank. I would think about giving it a go without the pump - I guess you can always take then pump off it it works OK.

Cheers


----------



## slabmaster

Gravity is all that's usually required for CSM. i HAVE THE GRANBERG GRAVITY TANK.Don't use it on stuff smaller than 24" though.I do keep a squeese bottle in my right hand to apply oil when needed on the smaller stuff.I find it easier to use,less bulk on my mill also. Mark


----------



## 820wards

BobL said:


> Looking good jerry! Very professional looking.
> 
> I presume the oil will be allowed to flow even without the pump? Given your tank is a reasonable height above the bar you should be able to get away with just gravity feeding of the oil for most situations but having a pump will help esp when you get towards the bottom of the oil tank. I would think about giving it a go without the pump - I guess you can always take then pump off it it works OK.
> 
> Cheers



Hi Bob,
Thanks.

I have to use the pump regardless of weather I drip feed the nose of the bar. The power head only drives the chain so I have to pump oil to the bar like the old saws did. I'm so used to my old WARDS saw with a manual pump it won't be a problem.

jerry-


----------



## 820wards

*Rear Chain Guard*

Worked on the rear chain guard today. Had to add metal to the main frame for mounting the aluminum chain guard. Cheers!

See pictures

jerry-


----------



## 820wards

Got to work on the mill a little more this weekend. Started adding the handles and brackets to hold them. Also made the pedestal that will hold a thin wall SS vertical handle on the motor frame. Now I have to make the brackets that will allow me to adjust the height of the handle as needed.

Just haven't had much spare time the past few weeks. A little work is better than no work I guess.

jerry-


----------



## DRB

Nice work Jerry.  

I can't wait to see the dust fly.  

Nice old Ford to.


----------



## BobL

Nice work Jerry - it's certainly starting to look schmick!! 

With respect to the long/tall handles it looks like you're trying to reduce the amount of bending over needed which is a very good thing. 

On the other hand, have you thought about how applying forces to the top of such long handles might tend to tip the mill over even just a little? So To counteract this the handles will need to be angled (just like you have done) to provide some vertical downward force to keep it balanced. This downward force then becomes a waste of force (and energy). The most energy efficient application of force is to apply it as close as possible to the direction required. 

This is why I lift the log at one end, less bending over and the mill goes downhill partially assisted by gravity so minimal forces are needed in the horizontal direction especially for a softwood log. The handles are then primarily used to steer the mill around lumps and bumps in the sides of the log. The greatest forces on the handles are usually counteractive, ie pulling on one handle while pushing on another. 

The placement of a pair of handles is probably best determined by something like equidistant from the centre of gravity (COG) of the mill, and wide enough apart to get some leverage but not so wide that you have to spread you arms too far and things get too uncomfortable. Although I realize they can probably be moved the two separate vertical handles on your mill are currently too close together and probably a long way from the COG. To get a handle either side of the COG you may need to put a handle close to or on the powerhead itself. It's amazing how for us "older guys" a small thing like lifting a log and handle placement can be the difference between feeling "tired" or "exhausted" at the end of a day of milling. 

I hope you can make sense and use of some of these comments. I'm all for experimenting and you got nothing to lose by trying this stuff so it will be very interested to see how it all works. 

Cheers


----------



## guitarborist

I love the GT 350 cap on the mill. I think I like the actual GT 350 in the garage even more.


----------



## 820wards

BobL said:


> Nice work Jerry - it's certainly starting to look schmick!!
> 
> With respect to the long/tall handles it looks like you're trying to reduce the amount of bending over needed which is a very good thing.
> 
> ** Yes, the old backs not like it used to be.
> 
> On the other hand, have you thought about how applying forces to the top of such long handles might tend to tip the mill over even just a little? So To counteract this the handles will need to be angled (just like you have done) to provide some vertical downward force to keep it balanced. This downward force then becomes a waste of force (and energy). The most energy efficient application of force is to apply it as close as possible to the direction required.
> 
> ** I'm going to try this handle in both directions with the radius up and then down to see which way works best.
> 
> 
> This is why I lift the log at one end, less bending over and the mill goes downhill partially assisted by gravity so minimal forces are needed in the horizontal direction especially for a softwood log. The handles are then primarily used to steer the mill around lumps and bumps in the sides of the log. The greatest forces on the handles are usually counteractive, ie pulling on one handle while pushing on another.
> 
> ** I saw your BIL video and plan to let gravity help move the machine down the log. I saw one of your other mills and did you add some Teflon to the rails to make it slide easier?
> 
> The placement of a pair of handles is probably best determined by something like equidistant from the centre of gravity (COG) of the mill, and wide enough apart to get some leverage but not so wide that you have to spread you arms too far and things get too uncomfortable.
> 
> ** I'm hoping that radius is enough to spreads the down force to the COG as we exert pressure to move the machine through the wood. I'm hoping the motor has more than enough power to actually try to pull it's way into the wood.
> 
> Although I realize they can probably be moved the two separate vertical handles on your mill are currently too close together and probably a long way from the COG. To get a handle either side of the COG you may need to put a handle close to or on the powerhead itself. It's amazing how for us "older guys" a small thing like lifting a log and handle placement can be the difference between feeling "tired" or "exhausted" at the end of a day of milling.
> 
> ** I haven't added the handle yet that mounts to the power head that I will also use to push with and will try to get it farther out towards the motor. I'm also planning on adding another handle for the nose end operator to use.
> 
> I hope you can make sense and use of some of these comments. I'm all for experimenting and you got nothing to lose by trying this stuff so it will be very interested to see how it all works.
> 
> ** Thanks for the input, believe me I have tried to learn from other mills I have seen here on the milling thread.
> 
> 
> jerry-


----------



## 820wards

guitarborist said:


> I love the GT 350 cap on the mill. I think I like the actual GT 350 in the garage even more.



Had to use the cap for the pictures...

It's a spare original cap I have for my 1966 GT-350H. It was the Red/Gold HERTZ rental at the Oakland Airport. I bought it wrecked in 1971 for $700 and spent 2 years putting it together with a 10 bolt Toploader. I know I should have put it back to it's original colors, it's just that I liked the W/B scheme. I have a a set of magnesium Mini-Lits on the car and love them. Even the lug nuts are magnesium. I built SCCA/Trans-AM cars for 15 years and this is the car that got me started.

jerry-


----------



## BobL

820wards said:


> I saw one of your other mills and did you add some Teflon to the rails to make it slide easier?



Both the BIL mill and my small mill have polyethylene skids on the rails, not quite as good as teflon but much better than metal on metal or metal on wood.

With respect to the mill pulling itself into the log, if that is too severe it can impede the forward motion of the mill. One was to reduce this effect is to add wheels or rollers to the inboard clamp. I got this idea from Railomatic. Placement of the wheel(s) is important and should be as close as possible to or on the line of cutting otherwise the curvature of the log may limit the contact of the wheel with the log

On my small mill I have a single (ex-roller blade) wheel. This works very well for a small mill.






On the BIL mill I am in the process of building a two wheeled setup - once it is finished I will post some pics.


----------



## harrygrey382

BobL said:


> Both the BIL mill and my small mill have polyethylene skids on the rails, not quite as good as teflon but much better than metal on metal or metal on wood.
> 
> With respect to the mill pulling itself into the log, if that is too severe it can impede the forward motion of the mill. One was to reduce this effect is to add wheels or rollers to the inboard clamp. I got this idea from Railomatic. Placement of the wheel(s) is important and should be as close as possible to or on the line of cutting otherwise the curvature of the log may limit the contact of the wheel with the log
> 
> On my small mill I have a single (ex-roller blade) wheel. This works very well for a small mill.



Like the wheel, mine needs that. I might try something similar. Thanks. I'm out of bullets though...


----------



## 820wards

I finally worked on the mill again today. I've been reading and looking at all the posts on oiling the nose of the milling bars and figured out how I will do the oiling on my mill not using a chainsaw. I hard silver brazed on a steel 1/8" pipe fitting I machined on the lathe. I will now be able to oil the nose of the bar without worrying about boring out a slotted bolt and hoping it doesn't come loose from vibration. See attached photo of oil fitting brazed to nose of bar. I drilled a hole in the bar that will allow oil to be pumped into the bar grove.

Tomorrow I will be working on drilling and taping an aluminum block for 1/8" pipe for oiling the bar at the power head end. I have to use my plasma cutter to cut a circle through the hardened bracket that the power head mounts to, I don't want to damage my good large drill bits drilling a hole that doesn't need to be exact in size, just clearanced to get a socket in for tightening the fitting. If I ever need to remove the fitting it will be very easy.

jerry-


----------



## BobL

820wards said:


> I finally worked on the mill again today. I've been reading and looking at all the posts on oiling the nose of the milling bars and figured out how I will do the oiling on my mill not using a chainsaw. I hard silver brazed on a steel 1/8" pipe fitting I machined on the lathe. I will now be able to oil the nose of the bar without worrying about boring out a slotted bolt and hoping it doesn't come loose from vibration. See attached photo of oil fitting brazed to nose of bar. I drilled a hole in the bar that will allow oil to be pumped into the bar grove.



Looks good Jerry. Certainly nice and strong and good to see you getting back onto your mill and saw.

Another reason why holes and bolts are used is because when the bar is turned over the oiling now comes before the nose and oil gets flung off as the chain rounds the nose. I guess you could braze another pipe fitting on the other side. 

The location of the pipe fitting after the nose sprocket means you lose some cutting length. On my hardnose bar my outboard oiling point near the end of the bar meant I could get 39.5" of cutting length from a 42" bar. On the BIL mill upgrade I use a 42" sprocket and 60" roller nose bars, I have gone for a simple "drop the oil on the bar/chain contact line". At first I was not very happy with this system because a lot of oil pools on top of the bar and I wanted to change it to get more oil into the groove but after a month of use the level of wear on the chain and bar does not seem to be any worse than using the bolt thru the nose method. I guess it comes down to using "drop the oil on the bar/chain contact line" and then using a bit more oil, or hole in the bar and forgoing some cutting length.


----------



## 820wards

BobL said:


> Looks good Jerry. Certainly nice and strong and good to see you getting back onto your mill and saw.
> 
> Another reason why holes and bolts are used is because when the bar is turned over the oiling now comes before the nose and oil gets flung off as the chain rounds the nose. I guess you could braze another pipe fitting on the other side.
> 
> ** I'm ahead of you Bob, I did drill another hole on the opposide of the bar and machined a second fitting. I only installed one fitting to see how the oiling will work before I braze a second fitting to the bar. It would only take me a few minutes to add the second fitting.
> 
> The location of the pipe fitting after the nose sprocket means you lose some cutting length.
> ** I lost about 1/2" of bar length from what I had.
> 
> but after a month of use the level of wear on the chain and bar does not seem to be any worse than using the bolt thru the nose method.
> ** If the system I made doesn't work well I'll try using the bolt method. I'm trying to minimize the amount of oil getting on the wood so I'm also going to put a check valve on the oil pressure line from the pump so it won't bleed down when the machine is no operating. The pump is from an automotive, clutch master cylinder and will produce more oil than I think I'm going to need.
> 
> I guess it comes down to using "drop the oil on the bar/chain contact line" and then using a bit more oil, or hole in the bar and forgoing some cutting length.


** You got it! Gonna play with the plasma cutter. I have to cut out the flange for the exhaust pipe from some 3/8" stainless steel plate. Off to the shop. Sun's out and it looks like it's going to be nice day today.

later
jerry-


----------



## BobL

820wards said:


> ** You got it! Gonna play with the plasma cutter. I have to cut out the flange for the exhaust pipe from some 3/8" stainless steel plate. Off to the shop. Sun's out and it looks like it's going to be nice day today.



All good - That plasma cutter sure sounds like a nice bit of gear.

I used to worry about getting oil onto the timber but even milling an 18" diameter log with full flow (19 mL/min from the power head and 40 mL/min from the aux oiler) doesn't seem to leave visible oil on the wood and it all seems to be absorbed by the sawdust. When I wash the slabs down I can sometimes see a thin sheen of oil on the water but this is always from clumps of sawdust stuck to the wood surface. 

One of the nice things I discovered about using a bicycle gear change lever for aux oil flow control is the built in click position marker. I have set it up so I can use click position 3 for 1/4 flow, position 4 gives me 1/2 flow 5, 3/4 flow and 6 - full flow, positions 1 and 2 are off, For most <20" wide cuts I don't use the aux oiler. For ~24" I typically run the aux oiler at about 1/4 flow, 30" 1/2 flow, etc. It also depends on wood hardness and dryness.


----------



## 820wards

BobL said:


> All good - That plasma cutter sure sounds like a nice bit of gear.
> 
> I used to worry about getting oil onto the timber but even milling an 18" diameter log with full flow (19 mL/min from the power head and 40 mL/min from the aux oiler) doesn't seem to leave visible oil on the wood and it all seems to be absorbed by the sawdust. When I wash the slabs down I can sometimes see a thin sheen of oil on the water but this is always from clumps of sawdust stuck to the wood surface.
> 
> One of the nice things I discovered about using a bicycle gear change lever for aux oil flow control is the built in click position marker. I have set it up so I can use click position 3 for 1/4 flow, position 4 gives me 1/2 flow 5, 3/4 flow and 6 - full flow, positions 1 and 2 are off, For most <20" wide cuts I don't use the aux oiler. For ~24" I typically run the aux oiler at about 1/4 flow, 30" 1/2 flow, etc. It also depends on wood hardness and dryness.



Well Guys, I didn't work on the mill today like I had planned. As I was headed out the door my hunting buddy called and talked me into going varmint hunting. I ened up calling this male Bob Cat in and took him with my TC Contender in 7-30 Waters at 130yds.








I'll work on the mill tomorrow.

jerry-


----------



## Jacob J.

Hey Jerry- good shot! Those TC Contenders seem to be a good rig.


----------



## 820wards

Jacob J. said:


> Hey Jerry- good shot! Those TC Contenders seem to be a good rig.



They are fun to shoot and collect. I have many barrels for my two frames. I just got my SS Pro-Hunter Encore from the custom shop and had them make me a 15" SS Fluted Bull barrel chambered in .17AI Bee (Ackley Improved). I'm going to do a trigger job on the trigger assembly before I start my work-up loads that I will chronograph.

jerry-


----------



## 820wards

[I'll work on the mill tomorrow.]

I worked on the aluminum block that I will use for pumping oil to the chain on the power head. I got it drilled and taped for the 1/8" pipe fitting.

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85108&stc=1&d=1230524022

With Fitting

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85109&stc=1&d=1230524077

I then had to cut a hole in the frame that holds the poer head so that I can run the oil line through the frame, a 3/8" spacer and then into the aluminum block I had milled to the correct thickness so that when I install the block with the oil fitting it will have enough clearance to install/remove the fitting with a deep socket. I used my plasma cutter for cutting the heat treated frame. I made an aluminum circle pattern using a hole punch and then clamped it to the frame centered on the spot where the oil line needs to pass through the frame. It worked great!

Before...

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85110&stc=1&d=1230524466

After...
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85111&stc=1&d=1230524519

I then cut out the SS flange with the cutter since I had everything out and setup. You sure get spoiled using a plasma cutter on SS.

Rough Exhaust Flang...

http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85112&stc=1&d=1230524647

I'm hoping that Monday I can start putting things back together since I had to take everything apart to do this work.

BobL/Guys, I have really been thinking about changing the way I mount the bar to the frame by eliminating the bottom piece that clamps/holds the bar together to the way your BL/Aggie's mill bolts through the bar. I did a sample pilot hole in an old bar today with the plasma cutter and it took all of 5 seconds to cut the hole using a circle pattern. There was very little heat, so I'm thinking I can cut the holes in the bar and bolt the bar directly to the frame. This would simplify changing/adjusting the chain. What do you think?

jerry-


----------



## BobL

820wards said:


> BobL/Guys, I have really been thinking about changing the way I mount the bar to the frame by eliminating the bottom piece that clamps/holds the bar together to the way your BL/Aggie's mill bolts through the bar. I did a sample pilot hole in an old bar today with the plasma cutter and it took all of 5 seconds to cut the hole using a circle pattern. There was very little heat, so I'm thinking I can cut the holes in the bar and bolt the bar directly to the frame. This would simplify changing/adjusting the chain. What do you think?
> -



It will certainly simplify changing the chain and it's what Will Malloff recommends on his milling arrangements. 

I originally favoured the idea of being able to make a mill on which use any chain saw could be used which is what the "double sided clamp on both in and out board" design is able to do. But now that I have been milling for a while the benefits of the various custom features on a mill have become obvious and I also figured that there are no hard and fast rules and different features will suit different people.

As I have said before, because I mill some oddly shaped logs I approach mill design from the perspective of "maximizing the cutting length of of the bar" so I like to connect the mill to the saw by the bar bolts and to hold the nose as close as possible to the end. Of course a solution to that is just to get a longer bar which I have done but that also weighs more. As I get older weight becomes more and more of an issue and I can see my next mill being very simple and light and the mill bolted direct to a bar has to be a winner.


----------



## 820wards

*Made My Exhaust Pipe Finally*

I finally had some extra time to work on the mill again last week. Remodeling a bathroom is not what I call a fun experience when I would rather be playing with toys...

Anyway, I finally roughed out my exhaust pipe for the 820 Power Bee motor I'm using on the mill. I will make the spark arrester to fit inside the pipe and a baffle to try deadening some of the nose. I have made the pipe so that when I operate the mill it will be exhausting out to my left side. I think I will wrap it with some of that exhaust header pipe insulating material so I can't burn myself. I sort of like the Zoome look to the pipe. I made it from 2" tubing and the flange is stainless steel I cut with my plasma cutter. 

I'll only need to make the chain tension assembly, attach the fuel line and have a couple of chains made to fit. 

jerry-


----------



## Hddnis

Looking good.


Mr. HE


----------



## BobL

820wards said:


> I sort of like the Zoome look to the pipe.



mee too!


----------



## 820wards

Did a little more on the mil today. I finally finished my bathroom remodel. Momma is happy and so am I.

Here is a muffler I fabricated for the mill I'm building. I am using an 820 PowerBee motor, 135cc, as a power head for the mill. I had to build an exhaust pipe so I was able to have it exit away from the operator as it is running. The exhaust port on the motor is 2-1/2" long and 1" wide. I cut the flange out stainless steel with a plasma cutter and the pipe pieces from a piece of 2" diameter muffler. When I flattened the 2" pipe it spread out to the 2-1/2" I needed for the flang. I also built the spark arrestor from a piece of stainless steel screen mesh rolled up to fill the 2" diameter end. I used some additional SS screen mesh to make a containment screen and then made a containment strap from some 18 gauge steel that I used like a hose clamp to hold the screen on the end of the pipe. It holds the rolled up screen in the pipe. I used SS screen because it will never melt with the heat of the exhaust. I'm hoping it will sound real good!

I also started the chain tensioner which I should finish this week. After that I will need to work on an air filter system. The motor is a 135cc's, so I'm thinking I will need a pretty large filter for this motor. Does anyone have any suggestion for a good filter? I can machine a flange to fit any filter diameter I would use. I'm thinking tall an not too large in diameter.

Attached are pictures of the muffler pip and the spark arrester. 

jerry-


----------



## 820wards

*Mill Finished Time To Make Sawdust!*

Well Guys/Gals,

I finally finished building my mill. Only need to add the air filter and get a couple of chains made, and then tear it down to paint.

Here is a link to my pictures of the mill.

http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/820wards/Mill/

I built the mill using an 820 PowerBee, 134cc 2-stroke motor. I had to build an oiling system that would oil both ends of the bar simultaneously because this is not a chainsaw that has an internal oil pump. The oil pump is a clutch master cylinder from a small car with a juice clutch. I then made the oil reservoir from an aluminum canister. The gas tank was made from 3031 aluminum sheet rolled and capped with fittings. The clutch is from an original WARDS 820 Chainsaw and the drum is made from the WARDS drum and another drum that utilizes the .404/7 drive system. I had to build a special mandrel to hold both pieces aligned so I could hard silver solder them together. 

So now I've come to the part of this built that I need your expertise on milling chain. I have searched the many threads on ripping chain. I have read that the Oregon chain stretches too much and I haven't seen anything about the Woodland ripping chain that Baileys sells, then there is the Stihl chain.... So I pose this question to you all. 

What chain should I start out with on this mill?

TIA
jerry-


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## mtngun

Lots of threads and posts here about ripping chain.

I use the Bailey's chain.

Nice metal fab on your mill, by the way.


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## Hddnis

That look very nice. Everything about it shows the touch of a craftsman. 

I'm curious how the clear tubing holds up to oil and gas? 



Mr. HE


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## parrisw

About your chain. First I wouldn't use .404, its not necessary, and takes a bigger cut. 3/8 would be better, can you change your rim sproket? I always use just standard oregon chain and grind it to 5deg.


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## sleddude5

I bet the neighbors can hear that sucker when you start it up!

How much do you figure your milll weighs?


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## 820wards

mtngun said:


> Lots of threads and posts here about ripping chain.
> 
> I use the Bailey's chain.
> 
> ** Is that the Woodsman Chain they sell?
> 
> Nice metal fab on your mill, by the way.



** Thanks, I can thank my Dad for teaching me. He was an engineer and made sure I did thing right. I learned to gas weld when I was 10yrs. old. I had some pretty cool looking double decked bikes when I was a kid.

jerry-


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## 820wards

Hddnis said:


> That look very nice. Everything about it shows the touch of a craftsman.
> 
> ** Thanks, I just hope it runs real good.
> 
> I'm curious how the clear tubing holds up to oil and gas?
> 
> ** When I bought it, the inf said it could be used for solvents, fuel and oils. If it doesn't work I have some SS braided fuel line I can use. I'm just trying to keep the weight down. The mill weighs about 60 pounds minus fuel/oil.
> 
> 
> jerry-


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> About your chain. First I wouldn't use .404, its not necessary, and takes a bigger cut. 3/8 would be better, can you change your rim sproket? I always use just standard oregon chain and grind it to 5deg.



** Is the 3/8" chain available in .063" gauge? That is what my bar is.

jerry-


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## 820wards

sleddude5 said:


> I bet the neighbors can hear that sucker when you start it up!
> 
> ** I have a WARDS 829 was with the same motor running the 1" carb/intake with the stock exhaust pipe that I have added SS screen to and it's real loud. But it's cool. Everyone in my neighbor hood knows when I'm ready to cut firewood each yea because I get the saw started and tuned before I leave. The kids think it's a cool saw. I also added carbon fiber reed valves and an electronic ignition to my saw and mill motor.
> 
> How much do you figure your mill weighs?



** About 60 lbs. with no fuel/oil. I can move it pretty easy but, I'm thinking of adding wheels that I can removed when I'm transporting it to where I'll be milling.

jerry-


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> ** Is the 3/8" chain available in .063" gauge? That is what my bar is.
> 
> jerry-



Yes.


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> Yes.



Thanks Parris,

I think I'm going to try the Woodsman chain from Baileys to start out with. I can buy a 25' spool of chain that I can make 3 chains from and the tools to put the chains together. When I talked to Art Martin last, he said he would show me how to put the chains together.

jerry-


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## 820wards

Worked on the carb to air filter adapter today on the lathe. Sure was hot in the shop all day. It was 100+ easy...

jerry-


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## BobL

Looks good  . . . . but . . . . . doh, that filter's right where I like to lean with my leg onto the mill. I suppose you could look to see if you could put a guard or handle over the top of it!


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Looks good  . . . . but . . . . . doh, that filter's right where I like to lean with my leg onto the mill. I suppose you could look to see if you could put a guard or handle over the top of it!



Good point. I'll look at that tomorrow. Don't plan to be leaning against the carb. I can easily make something that would keep me from leaning against it. 

Thanks
jerry-


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## BobL

820wards said:


> Good point. I'll look at that tomorrow. Don't plan to be leaning against the carb. I can easily make something that would keep me from leaning against it.



Something like this maybe ?


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Something like this maybe ?
> 
> Morning BobL,
> 
> The frame of the mill is 1/4" steel so I can add tabs that I can build a screened cage and bolt it to the frame. The areas I have circled in red are areas I have existing bolt access or can be added. I have also been thinking about machining an 90 degree intake so it would get the carburetor closer to the motor and easier to work on the throttle linkage and tuning adjustments. That carburetor has a 1-1/8" bore so it will breath easily.
> 
> Ga-day,
> jerry-


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## BobL

820wards said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The frame of the mill is 1/4" steel so I can add tabs that I can build a screened cage and bolt it to the frame. The areas I have circled in red are areas I have existing bolt access or can be added. I have also been thinking about machining an 90 degree intake so it would get the carburetor closer to the motor and easier to work on the throttle linkage and tuning adjustments. That carburetor has a 1-1/8" bore so it will breath easily.
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mornin Jerry, The right angle sounds like the go!
Click to expand...


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> 820wards said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mornin Jerry, The right angle sounds like the go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may end up buying some thin wall SS that is already bent at a 90. It's 1.125" diameter that's going to be the problem.
> 
> I'm waiting for my chain/chain break tools to come so I can make the chains up. I'll be making the copper exhaust gasket later today since I can't seem to find any exhaust gasket material at any local automotive or refrigeration/heating suppliers. I've used copper on many of the race cars I have built in the past. Works good and they hardly ever burn out.
> 
> jerry-
Click to expand...


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may end up buying some thin wall SS that is already bent at a 90. It's 1.125" diameter that's going to be the problem.
> 
> I'm waiting for my chain/chain break tools to come so I can make the chains up. I'll be making the copper exhaust gasket later today since I can't seem to find any exhaust gasket material at any local automotive or refrigeration/heating suppliers. I've used copper on many of the race cars I have built in the past. Works good and they hardly ever burn out.
> 
> jerry-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good plan with the copper!!
Click to expand...


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> 820wards said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good plan with the copper!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> I'm finding that it is almost impossible to find the old asbestos gasket material in sheets to make exhaust gaskets with. The old boilers used it for flange material. The exhaust port on this motor is 1" x 2-1/2" in size. When it's running it can be heard a long ways off.
> 
> Got my spool of chain and the tools to make the chains with today. I'll have to put off doing the chains until next week. I'm doing a disk brake conversion on a 66 Mustang this week for a friends car. I did it on my 65 Ranchero and after he drove it he wanted it for his Stang.
> 
> later,
> jerry-
Click to expand...


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> parrisw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> I'm finding that it is almost impossible to find the old asbestos gasket material in sheets to make exhaust gaskets with. The old boilers used it for flange material. The exhaust port on this motor is 1" x 2-1/2" in size. When it's running it can be heard a long ways off.
> 
> Got my spool of chain and the tools to make the chains with today. I'll have to put off doing the chains until next week. I'm doing a disk brake conversion on a 66 Mustang this week for a friends car. I did it on my 65 Ranchero and after he drove it he wanted it for his Stang.
> 
> later,
> jerry-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice, must be nice to have a friend like you!!
Click to expand...


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## 820wards

parrisw said:


> 820wards said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice, must be nice to have a friend like you!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit it, I'm a sucker for Mustangs. I have an original 1966 GT-350H, so it's in my blood.... along with chainsaws, fishing, hunting,playing my drums. Way too many hobbies.
> 
> jerry-
Click to expand...


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## BobL

820wards said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may end up buying some thin wall SS that is already bent at a 90. It's 1.125" diameter that's going to be the problem.
> 
> I'm waiting for my chain/chain break tools to come so I can make the chains up. I'll be making the copper exhaust gasket later today since I can't seem to find any exhaust gasket material at any local automotive or refrigeration/heating suppliers. I've used copper on many of the race cars I have built in the past. Works good and they hardly ever burn out.
> 
> jerry-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That SS thinwall is good stuff.
> We use corrugated thin wall SS for our flexible ultrahigh vacuum linkages at work, the turbomolecular pumps can pull the vacuum down to 0.000 000 000 001 atm - kinda scary to think there's just that thin wall between the two. We also use copper gaskets, but only for the 0.000 0001 atm side of the vacuum. For the ultrahigh side we use pure gold O rings!!!!
Click to expand...


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> 820wards said:
> 
> 
> 
> That SS thinwall is good stuff.
> We use corrugated thin wall SS for our flexible ultrahigh vacuum linkages at work, the turbomolecular pumps can pull the vacuum down to 0.000 000 000 001 atm - kinda scary to think there's just that thin wall between the two. We also use copper gaskets, but only for the 0.000 0001 atm side of the vacuum. For the ultrahigh side we use pure gold O rings!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi BobL,
> 
> The SS thin wall is tough. I remember when I was younger I was working in an RD facility and I hard silver soldered heavy brass flanges to flexible SS bellows to run test instruments into vacuum chambers. Can't have any leaks and with the corrugated thin wall SS it would not collapse under vacuum. Sounds like you get to work with some pretty cool stuff too. Cool!
> 
> I don't think the corrugated flex would work to good for an intake. I think the gas/oil mixture would puddle. I may have to find a custom tubing company that sells mandrel bent elbow's in the size I need. I figure I can get the mill running on what I have, then play with it once it's up and running.
> 
> jerry-
Click to expand...


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## BobL

820wards said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi BobL,
> 
> The SS thin wall is tough. I remember when I was younger I was working in an RD facility and I hard silver soldered heavy brass flanges to flexible SS bellows to run test instruments into vacuum chambers. Can't have any leaks and with the corrugated thin wall SS it would not collapse under vacuum.
> 
> 
> 
> yep - that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you get to work with some pretty cool stuff too. Cool!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sure do - I'll take some pics next time I have the camera in the lab.
Click to expand...

I don't think the corrugated flex would work to good for an intake. I think the gas/oil mixture would puddle.[/QUOTE]

Yep - I agree, plus the corrugations would hinder the air flow. It doesn't matter in the vacuum systems we use as the air flow is sooooo looooow.

Cheers


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## olyman

820wards said:


> ** Is the 3/8" chain available in .063" gauge? That is what my bar is.
> 
> jerry-



yes it is--what some arent realizing tho is--404 is stronger than 3/8. and it may be--that with the power you have--you could start breaking chains--not cool!!!!


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## 820wards

olyman said:


> yes it is--what some arent realizing tho is--404 is stronger than 3/8. and it may be--that with the power you have--you could start breaking chains--not cool!!!!



Breaking a chain was also my concern. I have a 1967 WARDS saw that came with an 820 PowerBee motor. I have also installed a larger intake/carb, Kevlar reed valves and an electronic ignition. I was told by the company I purchased the parts from that they have built those engines using those parts that make 17hp. The key to that saw is torque. It's operating rpm is only about 8k, but the torque is un-real. I can cut a dry Oak tree that is 30" in diameter and it doesn't even bog down, and that is why I decided to go with the .404-063". Everything I have read about saws with a lot of torque recommends using the .404 because it has less tendencies to bog down. My neighbor is planning to video my mill when I run it for the first time, should be fun! 

I received my chain and chain/break tools yesterday. I'll be making the chains up next week sometime. I still have a few little issues with my throttle. I may have to set the carb to be operated by a bell crank. I'm not getting full travel on the carb linkage. Didn't you use a motor cycle twist type throttle grip on your remote setup. If so, what was it from?

jerry-


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## parrisw

820wards said:


> Breaking a chain was also my concern. I have a 1967 WARDS saw that came with an 820 PowerBee motor. I have also installed a larger intake/carb, Kevlar reed valves and an electronic ignition. I was told by the company I purchased the parts from that they have built those engines using those parts that make 17hp. The key to that saw is torque. It's operating rpm is only about 8k, but the torque is un-real. I can cut a dry Oak tree that is 30" in diameter and it doesn't even bog down, and that is why I decided to go with the .404-063". Everything I have read about saws with a lot of torque recommends using the .404 because it has less tendencies to bog down. My neighbor is planning to video my mill when I run it for the first time, should be fun!
> 
> I received my chain and chain/break tools yesterday. I'll be making the chains up next week sometime. I still have a few little issues with my throttle. I may have to set the carb to be operated by a bell crank. I'm not getting full travel on the carb linkage. Didn't you use a motor cycle twist type throttle grip on your remote setup. If so, what was it from?
> 
> jerry-



Not likely you'll break a chain. I know that people convert 36" bars to run .325 chain for milling, because it takes less of a bite!!


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## BobL

olyman said:


> yes it is--what some arent realizing tho is--404 is stronger than 3/8. and it may be--that with the power you have--you could start breaking chains--not cool!!!!



New 404 is actually not that much stronger than new 3/8. 

The 404 ties, cutters and driver links are the same thickness as 3/8, it's only the area of metal around the 404 rivet holes that is at most 10% greater than the 3/8. This is needed because 404 cutters are slightly (8%) longer which places a greater torque on the cutter-rivet turning radius, but after a while a worn 404 cutter has has the same length as new 3/8. 

404 takes a greater side cut than 3/8 so 404 is subjected to a bit more twisting as well.

The real benefit of 404 is there are less rivets so there is less stretch and likelihood of falling/coming off the bar. When used with a gutsy powerhead stretch is very significant in overall bar slap, and bar and chain wear so that is where 404 really wins.


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## Hddnis

Does anyone know what chain they run on the big slabbers that are powered by a 20hp V-twin?

They slab at least 72" and I've not heard of chains breaking.



Mr. HE


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## Hddnis

Baileys says the Lucas slabber uses .404 .063 ripping chain.

I can't find what Peterson uses.



Mr. HE


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## 820wards

Hddnis said:


> Does anyone know what chain they run on the big slabbers that are powered by a 20hp V-twin?
> 
> They slab at least 72" and I've not heard of chains breaking.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. HE




My guess is they are using harvester chain, which is bigger than what is used on chainsaws.

jerry-


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## BobL

Hddnis said:


> Does anyone know what chain they run on the big slabbers that are powered by a 20hp V-twin?
> 
> They slab at least 72" and I've not heard of chains breaking.



Lucas mills use up to 30 HP power heads with a max of 60" bar running 404 chain using raker depths of ~0.060". They do break chains but its not that common.


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## 820wards

BobL said:


> Lucas mills use up to 30 HP power heads with a max of 60" bar running 404 chain using raker depths of ~0.060". They do break chains but its not that common.



Bob,
Don't think my motor will be making anywhere near 60hp. I'd take 20 hp though. :lifter:

jerry-


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## onegunsmith

How did the mill turn out?


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## 820wards

onegunsmith said:


> How did the mill turn out?



The mills works great! I've milled quite a bit with it and since I've installed a 50" bar I'm getting some larger pieces to mill. I currently have gotten some 36"+ wide redwood logs and some black walnut stumps that I'll be milling when the weather cools. 100* weather is no fun to mill in. 

Are you planning to build a mill?

jerry-


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## scor440

*Powerbee*

View attachment 313818


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## 820wards

scor440 said:


> View attachment 313818




That's my baby!

jerry-


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