# Taking risks...to save some time and money?



## dblack (Oct 26, 2017)

I have a question I wanted to get everyone's opinion on. This may belong in the commercial tree care forum but I wanted to start it here. The situation:

There is a split ash with codominant stems. Each stem is no more than 14" in diameter and the split occurs only a few feet off the ground. The tree is 50-55 feet tall. The customer wants the tree removed completely. The ash is between two houses, the one they own and the neighbor's house. I can't get a lift to the tree so I have intentions of climbing it. Climbing trees with codominant stems kind of freaks me out so I will normally take two truckers ratchet straps and wrap them around both halves to decrease some of the pressure that may cause them to split when climbing and rigging. 

The good news is that one whole side of the stem can be dropped into the yard, because the drop zone is clear and it is already leaning that way. The bad news is that the other side of the stem is leaning towards the house, and overtop of a fence. My plan up until this point in time was to rig the bad side over to the side with a clear DZ and use the portawrap to lower branches one at a time. This has worked perfectly in the past on other trees and situations like this. 

As with most jobs, there are many methods for doing them and some are safer then others. The customer had the idea of putting a rope in the side leaning towards the house, and pulling it into the yard where the safe DZ is with a come-along or something of that nature. However, the tree is leaning over center, so you would be putting an enormous amount of faith in your hinge when pulling into the clear area of the yard. The customer knows that if we used this method, we could do the job in 1/4 the time and save them a ton of money, but I am not a fan of this method and know ash trees (especially dying ones with EAB) do not have a hinge suitable for pulling them away from a hazard and back over center. 

My question to you all is: in a situation like this, do you stick to your guns and go with the correct way to do things by rigging them down one at a time, or do you give the customer the good deal they think they have to have and use their method? If you used their method, would you make them sign a release form? As far as I know, I would probably still get nailed even if I made them sign a release form so I am not bothered. I haven't had any insurance claims and don't want to start. But overall my question is, do you ever attempt to perform tree care somewhat higher in risk to save time and money for both parties (and make them sign releases of liability) or stick to your guns and move onto the next job you can do your way?


----------



## ATH (Oct 26, 2017)

YOU have to be comfortable that you are doing it right. If they want to find somebody else to pull it.....there are plenty of YouTube videos that they ought to search first!

We take risks every day. Heck, driving to the site is a big risk. No need to up that level of risk.

I say all of that without even considering the facts of your case. So, now on to your case... I don't trust EAB killed Ash. They don't behave 'normal'. When you said the tree is split do you mean like a failure has started or that it it a Y shaped tree? I wouldn't climb a tree that has already started to split unless one side is clearly solid and it is just a limb splitting off of it. If that is the case, I'd probably pull it because I'd rather wreck a house than me.


----------



## Jed1124 (Oct 26, 2017)

You do not use there method under any circumstances. You are the expert. If they think they know better let them do it.
Like ATH said Eab Ash is crispy. Crack from a co-dom stem in tight quarters, sounds like a crane tree to me. If they don't want to pay for a crane let someone else do it.


----------



## Little Al (Oct 27, 2017)

If it was me & the house owner wanted it doing a way I was not happy with to save you time but him money I'd tell him to to get some one else It" you not him that's going to end up hurt if things go wrong ,will he pay your way for your time not being able to work. I think your insurance would be a bit reluctant to pay if they thought you were taking short cuts with safety etc.& if the tree ends up damaging his house it will be down to you & your insurance + the word will quickly spread that you don't know what you are at. under the adage of 999 good jobs = no comment, 1 problem = everybody in the area 's heard about & is commenting on. My advice would be if you are not able due to customer pressure to do the job as you wish to, walk away & if the house owner thinks he knows best tell him to do the job himself, as if anything goes wrong it sure as heck will be down to you.


----------



## Ted Jenkins (Oct 27, 2017)

I do my best not to pay any attention to the customers opinion or suggestions. When some thing goes wrong how many people will say that they take all responsibility? Every job has risks period. Some key points are risks vs. reward. In the described scenario taking down the trees with come a longs would likely be the safest. When jobs go fast and I make it look easy I still charge the same. My work is not cheap. You have to look out for your self. Recently I had a job that involved a 36 to 40'' Oak that was leaning exactly opposite of where it needed to go. The owner had suggested that I climb it to remove some of the weight so it would be easier to pull, A tree climber friend said he would help to get it moving. Since there was evidence that the trees could have died 10 or 15 years ago I decided not to climb. It was very difficult to get any lines up on the limbs that I wanted to put lines on. It was some where between 50 and 60' high to the most substantial limbs. After many failed attempts I managed to get some lines where they needed to go. So I ran five lines to the closest trees about 80' away. With all my come a longs attached seven of them to be exact I started cranking. After an hour or so it appeared that the tree moved a little so with six small undercuts and a face cut I kept cranking. An hour later it appeared that the tree was moving and after another hour I heard some cracking. Soon the tree twisted a little and fell close to where it needed to go with out any damage. However the tree shattered on impact indicating the tree was completely rotten and unsafe to climb. Had I climbed it and it broke it likely would have ended me. Thanks


----------



## jefflovstrom (Oct 28, 2017)

Can you get a crane to it?
Jeff


----------



## ksvanbrunt (Oct 29, 2017)

A picture might help to. It would be good to see how much back lean you would be working against


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 11, 2017)

assess the risks and ask yourself if its worth getting wrong, then decide if you can pull it off confidently, if either answer is a no or maybe, its not worth doing it the easy way.


----------



## Rick Hammer (Dec 15, 2017)

dblack said:


> I have a question I wanted to get everyone's opinion on. This may belong in the commercial tree care forum but I wanted to start it here. The situation:
> 
> There is a split ash with codominant stems. Each stem is no more than 14" in diameter and the split occurs only a few feet off the ground. The tree is 50-55 feet tall. The customer wants the tree removed completely. The ash is between two houses, the one they own and the neighbor's house. I can't get a lift to the tree so I have intentions of climbing it. Climbing trees with codominant stems kind of freaks me out so I will normally take two truckers ratchet straps and wrap them around both halves to decrease some of the pressure that may cause them to split when climbing and rigging.
> 
> ...


you basically answered your own question.There is nothing wrong with listening to the homeowners suggestions,but you are the professional and he is NOT.The reason you are still able to climb and be in business is because of doing it the correct way,and safe way.Tree work is dangerous enough without cutting corners that a novice would tell you to do.


----------

