# Handloggers



## John Ellison (Oct 29, 2009)

Here is a good read. True story about "Handlogger Jackson" Takes place in coastal B.C. and Southeast Alaska from 1915 and on. Adventure, falling timber,hunting ,fishing and trapping. Handloggers fell timber directly into the water/ocean on steep faces, if it did not make it to the water they would use jacks to try and get the tree/log to move. A few good pictures and a heck of a tale.
I believe its out of print but have seen it at online used book sales.


----------



## forestryworks (Oct 29, 2009)

looks like a good read, John. gonna hunt that one down.

edit: AbeBooks.com is a good used book place online.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=Handloggers&x=44&y=15


----------



## mtngun (Oct 30, 2009)

Thanks for the tip, ordered a signed copy. Should be a good winter read.

I'm not a logger, in fact, I'm one of those treehuggers that loggers love to hate, but I enjoy reading about outdoor adventures. I do enough personal woodcutting to admire loggers for their skills even though it's sometimes hard to admire the results of commercial logging for profit.


----------



## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2009)

Just got my Bailey's catelog. 2 whole pages of what look like good books in the back of it. My wish list could be a couple hundred dollars on just those pages.

Harry K


----------



## slowp (Oct 31, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Thanks for the tip, ordered a signed copy. Should be a good winter read.
> 
> I'm not a logger, in fact, I'm one of those treehuggers that loggers love to hate, but I enjoy reading about outdoor adventures. I do enough personal woodcutting to admire loggers for their skills even though it's sometimes hard to admire the results of commercial logging for profit.



Without profit, there would be no logging and we could get our lumber from countries without forest practices rules. So, stay on here and get educated as to what REALLY happens in the woods as opposed to what you are told by 
well, not for profit (but somebody must be getting paid) groups such as *The Sierra Club.* 

Logging is a disturbance and you just can't make it look pretty to folks who don't understand forestry. It looks destructive, but wait a few years and things look nice again. Meanwhile, behind those "looks" is often a healthier, faster growing stand of trees. Wood is the most eco friendly building material we have. Economical too.

There, you've started learning. Right?


----------



## Gologit (Oct 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Without profit, there would be no logging and we could get our lumber from countries without forest practices rules. So, stay on here and get educated as to what REALLY happens in the woods as opposed to what you are told by
> well, not for profit (but somebody must be getting paid) groups such as *The Sierra Club.*
> 
> Logging is a disturbance and you just can't make it look pretty to folks who don't understand forestry. It looks destructive, but wait a few years and things look nice again. Meanwhile, behind those "looks" is often a healthier, faster growing stand of trees. Wood is the most eco friendly building material we have.  Economical too.
> ...



Well said.


----------



## forestryworks (Oct 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> without profit, there would be no logging and we could get our lumber from countries without forest practices rules. So, stay on here and get educated as to what really happens in the woods as opposed to what you are told by
> well, not for profit (but somebody must be getting paid) groups such as *the sierra club.*
> 
> logging is a disturbance and you just can't make it look pretty to folks who don't understand forestry. It looks destructive, but wait a few years and things look nice again. Meanwhile, behind those "looks" is often a healthier, faster growing stand of trees. Wood is the most eco friendly building material we have. Economical too.
> ...





gologit said:


> well said.



+1


----------



## wvlogger (Oct 31, 2009)

slowp said:


> Without profit, there would be no logging and we could get our lumber from countries without forest practices rules. So, stay on here and get educated as to what REALLY happens in the woods as opposed to what you are told by
> well, not for profit (but somebody must be getting paid) groups such as *The Sierra Club.*
> 
> Logging is a disturbance and you just can't make it look pretty to folks who don't understand forestry. It looks destructive, but wait a few years and things look nice again. Meanwhile, behind those "looks" is often a healthier, faster growing stand of trees. Wood is the most eco friendly building material we have. Economical too.
> ...





well said


----------



## Rookie1 (Oct 31, 2009)

Slowp,Ambassador for the logging industry!


----------



## redprospector (Oct 31, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Thanks for the tip, ordered a signed copy. Should be a good winter read.
> 
> I'm not a logger, in fact, I'm one of those treehuggers that loggers love to hate, but I enjoy reading about outdoor adventures. I do enough personal woodcutting to admire loggers for their skills even though it's sometimes hard to admire the results of commercial logging for profit.



Just to add to slowp's response;
In the western US we generally have two choices. Either thin, or log the forest, or watch it burn. Just from the aesthetic side of the discussion, which looks better, an area that has been logged, or an area that has had a catastrophic fire?
It's not all about looks, but that's all that some look at.


Andy


----------



## dancan (Oct 31, 2009)

Sorry to derail/side track or hijack this thread but I have to get this off my chest because it's been eating at me since this story started .
I can't say cheers at the end of this response because it is the sober reality of what or how much "The Club" and or it's people stand behind or believe it's convictions . It's hard to reason or set rational goals in regards to nature when you have people like this
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2009/10/29/ns-mitchell-mother.html
Yes I know this is a tragic story but I can't believe or agree with the parents response and can't help but feel that their ideology or lack of teaching respect for the wild did not play a part in this tragedy .
As a father to two daughters I have done what I can to give them life skills , respect and understand nature , ask questions and to look at things with both eyes open , they understand why people hunt , why people cut trees and why I don't agree with some less than desirable hunting or tree harvesting practices but they understand why these things are done and do not look at nature with a euphoric view like Sierra club , green peace or what ever club so keep this mothers response in the back of your mind because they scare me .

Dan LeBlanc


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 1, 2009)

Thats the problem with them . They have to draw attention to themselves ...... This should be a good thread about Hand Logger Jackson , but this #### head thinks so much of himself he has to brag about it on a loggers forum ........... What a totally un class act ................. 
.
. People who work in the woods don,t love to hate pieces of #### like you ... Mostly we don,t understand how anyone can be so ignorant and rude .


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 1, 2009)

but about Handlogger Jackson .. He and his brother in law , Alan " I think it was Alan " Johnstone took around a million feet of spruce out of just Yes Bay alone .. I,ve seen trees they left because without iron it would be impossible to get them into the bay , one of the 3 bays ... He used to ROW flat rafts from Yes Bay to Ketchikan ......Anyone who has spent much time on the Beam Canal should be able to comprehend the severity of that kind of undertaking ....... It,s 50 miles from Yes Bay to town ... I don,t know where he would cross the Beam , but I would be pretty nervous ... To say he was at least 3 times tougher than me would still be an understatement !!!!!!


----------



## mtngun (Nov 1, 2009)

slowp said:


> Without profit, there would be no logging and we could get our lumber from countries without forest practices rules. So, stay on here and get educated as to what REALLY happens in the woods as opposed to what you are told by
> well, not for profit (but somebody must be getting paid) groups such as *The Sierra Club.*
> 
> Logging is a disturbance and you just can't make it look pretty to folks who don't understand forestry. It looks destructive, but wait a few years and things look nice again. Meanwhile, behind those "looks" is often a healthier, faster growing stand of trees. Wood is the most eco friendly building material we have. Economical too.
> ...


I won't even respond to tramp bushler's personal insults. That's a perfect example of why I seldom post on this forum, even though I have an interest in woodscraft and forest management.

Slowp, I always enjoy your posts and learn from them. Thanks.

As I said, I'm not a logger ...... but I spent a summer working in a ma and pa sawmill, and loved it. I spent a few weeks as a flunkie on a logging crew, and I loved it. I personally harvest wood for heat and for lumber, and I enjoy it. I agree that wood is the most eco friendly building material, and I built my house out of deadwood that I harvested from local forests.

I'm not opposed to all logging, just bad logging, and there is plenty of that in the west. 

I applaud low-impact selective logging. I have no beef with thinning when it goes well -- but it doesn't always go well. Even small clear cuts have their place. But mile after mile of clear cut, as far as the eye can see -- NO THANK YOU.

Regarding what REALLY happens in the woods, uh, I live in the woods, so to speak. What I see is tremendous waste, where more wood is burned in slash piles and by out-of-control slash fires than is hauled to the mill. Perhaps that is unique to my local situation, but nonetheless that is what I see and it's hard to accept. 

My local forests used to be predominately doug fir, ponderosa, and tamarack. Old timey logging practices, motivated by short term profits, called for harvesting the valuable trees first and the less valuable trees (white fir) last -- just the opposite of good management. That, plus Smokey the bear, leaves us with a 2nd growth forest of predominately white fir, which is a hot wildfire waiting to happen. 

They've learned their lesson, and are now managing to encourage doug fir and tamarack and to discourage white fir. If they keep it up, 100 years from now MAYBE we'll have a halfway healthy forest again.

Regarding the fire problem, fire is natural and healthy up to a point. As everyone here knows, man-made problems have made fires much worse. Smokey the bear, global warming, beetles (due to global warming), fire-thinned old growth replaced by thick 2nd growth, fire resistant species replaced by white fir -- due to poor logging practices and Smokey the bear. 

Before I moved to my present location, I lived near Yellowstone, and spent a lot of time hunting and hiking on land adjacent to the park, most of which had been heavily clear cut. I often hiked up a particular mountain that straddled the park boundary, where on one side of the boundary there was clear cut as far as the eye could see. The park side, of course, was beautiful despite the wildfires that have ravaged the park from time to time. The park side had lots of game, the clear cut side had domestic cows and not so much game. I think of that view every time I hear someone talking about how logging makes forests healthy and how the treehuggers are causing all the problems. 

Like I said, I'm not at all opposed to logging when it is done well. I admire loggers for their woods skills even though I may not agree with their politics, and that's why I'm sure I'll enjoy reading Jackson's book. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention.


----------



## forestryworks (Nov 1, 2009)

alot of yellowstone is predominantly lodgepole pine, and often in pure stands. a monoculture (especially now after the mountain pine beetle epidemic) is not good; especially if the stand is dead and/or heavily stressed. 

clearcuts are good in those types of situations. it lets a variety of herbaceous and woody plants come in which is not as susceptible to insect attacks as a monoculture is. 

that was definitely the situation in northern colorado when i was cutting there last summer.


----------



## clearance (Nov 1, 2009)

Sounds like a cool book, the B.C. coast was originally hand logged or A-frame logged. The hand loggers were a tough breed, no doubt. What makes me just howl with laughter is to hear people speak about the old growth on the B.C. coast, there isn't any. It all grew back, too funny.

And, about clearcuts, they are no big ones being cut anymore here, not for some time. If you want to see animals and pick berries, thats where you go. Ever been in the old growth coastal B.C.? I have, its dark, all there is on the ground is moss. Thats why in the interior, in the old days, the natives used to burn the bush every few years, so it never got a chance, true story.


----------



## slowp (Nov 1, 2009)

Interesting. I attended a forestry seminar yesterday. One of the speakers, a PHD from the U of Warshington spoke on the topic of global warming. I'm not highly educated, but I can summarize his info. Apparently, a scientist put together a model that showed global warming. It is called the hockey stick model. A big brouhaha erupted. Finally, a statistician in Canada started studying the statistics of the data and it had problems. Meanwhile, enter Al Gore and various folks. Universities are getting lots of funding to study global warming. Etc.

Scientists are bailing out who once thought global warming to be legitimate.
If you study graphs of climate change, we're in a normal spike. And the spike isn't very sharp. More like a gentle curve. You'd get it a lot better if you were at the presentation.

Back to dying timber. Yup, earlier logging caused some problems. Yup there's bugs. BUT lodgepole pine has bark beetles as a normal part of the cycle. 80 years, 8 inches dbh and it is pretty much mature and ready to be eaten then burned up. No global warming needed. Lodgepole is a fire dependent species. Now, if you get to it early enough, and have a market, and don't get held up by lawsuits, you can mimic nature and remove it by logging it. You leave the slash in the unit, then burn that on a suitable day, and you'll have lodgepole seedlings all over the place coming back up. No planting required. 

People are noticing more dead trees than they used to along the highways and on the hillsides. My theory is that in the past, those dying trees were harvested--salvaged so you didn't see them. Now they can't be because of evironmental groups, so are now left standing. 

Out here, we don't have much of a fire problem. We'll have a catastrophic one every 100 to 300 years. That's why we have Douglas-fir here. 
That's why clearcutting is favored on private lands. Dougs like sunlight. 

Everywhere is different. We grow trees well here in SW Warshington. We can burn slash piles without them getting away, we started last week. Those piles get burned because the roads to them are REQUIRED to be torn up. No firewood cutting because of that. The enviros tend to whine about roads so this appeases them. I don't know of any biomass market that is viable to haul to. Broadcast burning in clearcuts provides some planting areas and also knocks back the competing brush which gives the seedlings a head start. Think of it as a race for light. 

I only work in thinnings now. That's all. I'd like to see some clearcuts so we can have more huckleberries and elk browse. But it aint gonna happen unless we have a major political shift. In thinnings, we leave the slash in the unit for mulch and nutrients. It rots away. As do any big trees that have to be cut for safety reasons. That's how it is done in this climate, in this region.

Yes, a lot of the areas that were logged in the early days are now grown back, with big trees that are labeled Old Growth. A lot of the areas are grown back with buildings, we call that Seattle.


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 2, 2009)

Just can,t stomach trash that want to run their mouth where it isn,t wanted ... Do timber beasts go to liberal light in the loafers forums and post , I doubt it , but don,t know for sure as I don,t go there ....... He shouldn,t be allowed on here !!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 2, 2009)

clearance said:


> Sounds like a cool book, the B.C. coast was originally hand logged or A-frame logged. The hand loggers were a tough breed, no doubt. What makes me just howl with laughter is to hear people speak about the old growth on the B.C. coast, there isn't any. It all grew back, too funny.
> 
> And, about clearcuts, they are no big ones being cut anymore here, not for some time. If you want to see animals and pick berries, thats where you go. Ever been in the old growth coastal B.C.? I have, its dark, all there is on the ground is moss. Thats why in the interior, in the old days, the natives used to burn the bush every few years, so it never got a chance, true story.



Right on !!!! There have been several Excellent books written about loggin in BC ... One was ( Never Chop Your Rope ) .... One book I really enjoyed , I don,t know its name was a pirated copy of an unpublished book .. Another , that was in comic book format , or whatever its called , I still have around here somewhere . . Then there was one about A Frame logging , and a tug named the Ima Hogg ... It was a wood fired steam tug of not many horse power ... All these were from British Columbia and steam or wood tree steam loggin .....


----------



## slowp (Nov 2, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Just can,t stomach trash that want to run their mouth where it isn,t wanted ... Do timber beasts go to liberal light in the loafers forums and post , I doubt it , but don,t know for sure as I don,t go there ....... He shouldn,t be allowed on here !!!!!!!!!!!!!



Actually, I do post on a tree hugger (the majority of them) site. I try to counteract the "OH MY! THEY"RE GOING TO LOG THERE!" usual BS and maybe, just maybe, inform some of the nitwits. I'm on the "ignore" list of many. 

So, on with log pushing. Was it well planned? Or did they just aim and launch?


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 2, 2009)

Aim and Launch ... They used Gilcrist jacks when the tree would get hung up on its way down the mountain . The perfect situation was for a place like Yes Bay where there is 50 plus fathoms of water right where the water touches the rock in many places ......... Sometimes the tree would jill poke into something and they would have to cut it off at the top end so it could take off again .. To get an understanding of this , a tree can lay up and down a pretty steep slope and stay there forever ....... They had to walk / climb around in these sometimes almost verticle v notches and limb the tree by hand , Seager Axes and misery whips ..... Then they had to off the top that was supporting the whole tree .... And right when everything took off they had to get in the clear as the tree rockets past them ..........
.
. This is all before , during and after WWII , even some before WWI .................Since there was no shortage of Sitka spruce 6-12 feet on the stump and sometimes over 200 feet tall , that was the target ........ Just packin the tools up the mountain to the tree would be more than a days work for most on here ...... Aparantly Handlogger Jackson was a bit over the top as the only guys who could work with him were his brothers in law , and often he worked alone .. .... . Fallin 10 ft spruce with a hand saw ,,, Alone ,,, 5 , 600 feet up a mountain , sometimes standing on a spring board with nothing but air under his board for 300 feet ....... Where the best spruce grows the ground is always really rugged and broken up ..... He had a pretty ingenious system set up for the empty end of the saw ...... He prefered to prospect for gold as that was alot easier than hand logging ....... It is really a must read book .... He did things like row a 22 or 24 ft dory UP the Unik river , alone . loaded down with tools and gear for a winters prospecting and trapping .. The Unik isn,t an easy river to row a dory up ... at all !!!! It isn,t a BS tale either as he was well known in Ketchikan ... A guy I worked for , Kevin Hack has the rifle he killed Old Groaner with .......


----------



## coastalfaller (Nov 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Right on !!!! There have been several Excellent books written about loggin in BC ... One was ( Never Chop Your Rope ) .... One book I really enjoyed , I don,t know its name was a pirated copy of an unpublished book .. Another , that was in comic book format , or whatever its called , I still have around here somewhere . . Then there was one about A Frame logging , and a tug named the Ima Hogg ... It was a wood fired steam tug of not many horse power ... All these were from British Columbia and steam or wood tree steam loggin .....



The comic book one your talking about is "Now Your Logging" by Bus Griffiths, it really is a great read. Some others are "Timber" by Roderick Haig Brown & "From Horseshoes to Helicopters" by Ron (?) Coulson. The first two are fiction, but the last one is a collection of short stories from loggers on the BC Coast, written by a member of a prominent logging family. One particular story always pops into my head about a Dad who's son begged him to break him in falling. The Dad resisted, but finally relented and while working together had to deal with the worst thing anyone could imagine. Heartbreaking. There are lots of great stories in that book, it's hard to find though, been out of print since the late 80's I believe. Happy reading!


----------



## bitzer (Nov 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Aim and Launch ... They used Gilcrist jacks when the tree would get hung up on its way down the mountain . The perfect situation was for a place like Yes Bay where there is 50 plus fathoms of water right where the water touches the rock in many places ......... Sometimes the tree would jill poke into something and they would have to cut it off at the top end so it could take off again .. To get an understanding of this , a tree can lay up and down a pretty steep slope and stay there forever ....... They had to walk / climb around in these sometimes almost verticle v notches and limb the tree by hand , Seager Axes and misery whips ..... Then they had to off the top that was supporting the whole tree .... And right when everything took off they had to get in the clear as the tree rockets past them ..........
> .
> . This is all before , during and after WWII , even some before WWI .................Since there was no shortage of Sitka spruce 6-12 feet on the stump and sometimes over 200 feet tall , that was the target ........ Just packin the tools up the mountain to the tree would be more than a days work for most on here ...... Aparantly Handlogger Jackson was a bit over the top as the only guys who could work with him were his brothers in law , and often he worked alone .. .... . Fallin 10 ft spruce with a hand saw ,,, Alone ,,, 5 , 600 feet up a mountain , sometimes standing on a spring board with nothing but air under his board for 300 feet ....... Where the best spruce grows the ground is always really rugged and broken up ..... He had a pretty ingenious system set up for the empty end of the saw ...... He prefered to prospect for gold as that was alot easier than hand logging ....... It is really a must read book .... He did things like row a 22 or 24 ft dory UP the Unik river , alone . loaded down with tools and gear for a winters prospecting and trapping .. The Unik isn,t an easy river to row a dory up ... at all !!!! It isn,t a BS tale either as he was well known in Ketchikan ... A guy I worked for , Kevin Hack has the rifle he killed Old Groaner with .......




Very cool! I'm gonna have to find that book! Thanks for the info.

As global warming goes, I have been on college campuses over the last five years. I go there as a student, but i wouldn't consider myself one. The people I go to school with and I have one thing in common, we go to school there. I work full time felling trees, excavating, whatever has to be done for my company. They can't pay well so I chose to go back to school. Global warming was hot several years ago. Everyone talked about it, scientific models of emissions cycles and chemical equations of lab simulation proabablitlities were rampant. I have a strong knowledge of global and cultural change from now to as far back as you wanna go. There are warming and cooling trends that the earth goes through naturally I would contest with my professors. Look at the age of the dinosaurs, then the ice ages. Where I am sitting right now it was covered in hundreds of feet of ice 10,000 years ago. I was always shot down and the great GORE and his crusaders were lifted high! In the past two years I have not even heard the phrase global warming uttered in class. Where did it go? Chemically speaking yes emissions in the air can lead to chemical processes resulting in changes in the pH of the oceans causing higher temperatures of water influencing climate, weather patterns and so on. That fact of the matter is, it would be extremely difficult to quantify that information and pinpoint it as "global warming." It is a theory and politicians love to ride on scare tactics as well as the media. They also like to ride the hunting is wrong train and I am sure the logging is wrong train. They like to be comfortable and not bothered with the human impact on the world when it is undeniable. The human impact is what has driven the logging industry and has made what hunting is today. In Wisconsin we have WAY too many deer. They are hit by cars constantly. Many people I know have hit them. It is because they have lots of food from our crops and we destroyed their natural predators. Now we must keep them in check or they will become over run. As far as logging goes are those anti-loggers framing their houses out of recycled materials instead of lumber, I doubt it. Wood is a renewable resource and it always has been an extremely important one throughout time. Like the others mentioned it is regulated and controlled and well thought out and above all necessary. Before a house is built does the excavated hole in the ground look pretty? No, but there is a benficial end to the means for those involved. I apologize for the rant, but I could go on forever on this one citing many examples along the way!


----------



## joesawer (Nov 7, 2009)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Very cool! I'm gonna have to find that book! Thanks for the info.
> 
> As global warming goes, I have been on college campuses over the last five years. I go there as a student, but i wouldn't consider myself one. The people I go to school with and I have one thing in common, we go to school there. I work full time felling trees, excavating, whatever has to be done for my company. They can't pay well so I chose to go back to school. Global warming was hot several years ago. Everyone talked about it, scientific models of emissions cycles and chemical equations of lab simulation proabablitlities were rampant. I have a strong knowledge of global and cultural change from now to as far back as you wanna go. There are warming and cooling trends that the earth goes through naturally I would contest with my professors. Look at the age of the dinosaurs, then the ice ages. Where I am sitting right now it was covered in hundreds of feet of ice 10,000 years ago. I was always shot down and the great GORE and his crusaders were lifted high! In the past two years I have not even heard the phrase global warming uttered in class. Where did it go? Chemically speaking yes emissions in the air can lead to chemical processes resulting in changes in the pH of the oceans causing higher temperatures of water influencing climate, weather patterns and so on. That fact of the matter is, it would be extremely difficult to quantify that information and pinpoint it as "global warming." It is a theory and politicians love to ride on scare tactics as well as the media. They also like to ride the hunting is wrong train and I am sure the logging is wrong train. They like to be comfortable and not bothered with the human impact on the world when it is undeniable. The human impact is what has driven the logging industry and has made what hunting is today. In Wisconsin we have WAY too many deer. They are hit by cars constantly. Many people I know have hit them. It is because they have lots of food from our crops and we destroyed their natural predators. Now we must keep them in check or they will become over run. As far as logging goes are those anti-loggers framing their houses out of recycled materials instead of lumber, I doubt it. Wood is a renewable resource and it always has been an extremely important one throughout time. Like the others mentioned it is regulated and controlled and well thought out and above all necessary. Before a house is built does the excavated hole in the ground look pretty? No, but there is a benficial end to the means for those involved. I apologize for the rant, but I could go on forever on this one citing many examples along the way!




If you go back to the 70's the granola eaters where all convinced we where going to cause another ice age with pollution. Many of the same great scientists where providing their info.


----------



## Burvol (Nov 10, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Thanks for the tip, ordered a signed copy. Should be a good winter read.
> 
> I'm not a logger, in fact, I'm one of those treehuggers that loggers love to hate, but I enjoy reading about outdoor adventures. I do enough personal woodcutting to admire loggers for their skills even though it's sometimes hard to admire the results of commercial logging for profit.



Mtngun,

Being a hand faller is the best job in the whole world. Part of my job is a political statement. Your damn right I stand behind every clearcut I have ever done, stood behind them and admired the view. 

You should listen to Slowp. She is one of the most if not _the _most intelligent foresters on this site, or in SW WA at that. Do you sun worship as well?


----------



## gallegosmike (Nov 14, 2009)

The one thing that get me about tree huggers/leaf kisser. Is that during the so called carbon cycle, young trees use vast amounts of CO2 to grow versus mature trees just piddling "sipping" CO2. The CO2 nazi's cry that CO2 is a green house gas that needs to be reduced, but do not cut down a tree! Heck, the billions of trees rotting in new mexico forests are putting out more CO2 then if was used for lumber or firewood. The decomposition of wood products in the US forest is huge. But the tree huggers are blind to it, doesnt fit in with their leftest ideology. 
When LORD CHRISTOPER MONCKTON (former science adviser for the English Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher , gives a speech about modern green movent outlining the fact that is all about socialist ideology. And how to use the legal system to force change of fair usage of "ARE" forests. Watch this video (http://thepostnemail.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/lord-moncktons-speech-on-video/) Scary stuff!


----------



## Jaredm (Nov 25, 2009)

Woodsmen of the west by martin Allrdale Grainger is another good book from about the same period about hand logging on the bc coast.


----------



## woodchopper (Nov 26, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Thats the problem with them . They have to draw attention to themselves ...... This should be a good thread about Hand Logger Jackson , but this #### head thinks so much of himself he has to brag about it on a loggers forum ........... What a totally un class act .................
> .
> . People who work in the woods don,t love to hate pieces of #### like you ... Mostly we don,t understand how anyone can be so ignorant and rude .


Actually if you read what mtngun posted he DID mention that he ordered the book and admired the skills of loggers which is related to the subject of this thread. He only commented that he didn't like the aftermath of CERTAIN logging operations. Nowhere in his post did he condemn ALL logging or us who work in the industry. In fact if you read what he posted in a later post he's worked in this industry in the past and obviously knows more about the subject than you seem to want to give him credit for. Maybe his use of the word treehugger set you off but from reading what he later posted your anger might of been better off directed at someone who truly deserved it. 
I can't believe many here can't fathom far more environmental legislation has been enacted because of hunters, fishermen, and river runners than all the Sierra Clubs and others combined. The environmental organizations only wish they had the clout and financial might that sportsmen have. 
Back to the thread.....I intend to order the book. Sounds like a great read.


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 26, 2009)

*typical response from someone from Masatwo####s*

See Woodchopper , there ya go bein on the wrong side !!!!! You must not make a living in the brush .... The Sierra Club has a half dozen lawyers that live in Juneau . They stick their nose into everything a working man can do up here because they all are devoted to worshiping the earth .......... Weather its loggin or mining , building a road , drilling for oil ....................................................
Yes hunters ect can be a p.i.t.a . But the wicans are the worst ... The whole environmental movement is socialist driven ..........communist encouraged to bring America down .... You don,t see many liberals demonstrating in China or Russia against industrial projects ... They get dropped into the tailrace of a dam or just killed ....  ........ What happened to T.T. and the bear that ate him was the perfect end to an environmentalist lier ........................ Why don,t you go try to operate a business that supplies your livelihood , Work your guts out at it and have some lazy useless pos come and file a lawsuit and put you and your way of life out of business ...... Then tell everyone how good it is to be (moderate )) My moto , loger clean and pave er flat ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Kill all the competing predators !!!!


----------



## tramp bushler (Nov 26, 2009)

Oh and you stupid pos ... You think oh what a fun READ .. Try actually living there and doing it ................ You prolly couldn,t make it up the cliff to the tree ....


----------



## woodchopper (Nov 26, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> See Woodchopper , there ya go bein on the wrong side !!!!! You must not make a living in the brush .... The Sierra Club has a half dozen lawyers that live in Juneau . They stick their nose into everything a working man can do up here because they all are devoted to worshiping the earth .......... Weather its loggin or mining , building a road , drilling for oil ....................................................
> Yes hunters ect can be a p.i.t.a . But the wicans are the worst ... The whole environmental movement is socialist driven ..........communist encouraged to bring America down .... You don,t see many liberals demonstrating in China or Russia against industrial projects ... They get dropped into the tailrace of a dam or just killed .... ........ What happened to T.T. and the bear that ate him was the perfect end to an environmentalist lier ........................ Why don,t you go try to operate a business that supplies your livelihood , Work your guts out at it and have some lazy useless pos come and file a lawsuit and put you and your way of life out of business ...... Then tell everyone how good it is to be (moderate )) My moto , loger clean and pave er flat ...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Kill all the competing predators !!!!


Just in case your reading comprehension is a little off because whatever your drinking today I'll go a little slower so you can catch it this time. I DO work in the woods and stated so in my post. Go back and read what I said again. It's there in black and white.
I wish I could blame the environmental people but foreign {Canadian} competition and a down housing market are what are affecting logging jobs here in American. Anyone who understands business can tell you it has nothing to do with environmentalist. Not even close.



tramp bushler said:


> Oh and you stupid pos ... You think oh what a fun READ .. Try actually living there and doing it ................ You prolly couldn,t make it up the cliff to the tree ....


I guess my comment about your drinking wasn't out of line. Have another one brother. Calling someone a stupid POS on the internet really adds to your credibility.


----------



## mtngun (Nov 26, 2009)

Getting back to the original subject ...... ....... I've finished reading _Handloggers_. It was a good winter read. Not the greatest ever Alaskan story (try _ On the Edge of Nowhere_) but good.

However, if you're looking for lots of logging stories, it's not there. Only a couple of chapters discuss the handlogging business in any detail. The majority of the book is about living in the wilderness -- hiking, exploring, hunting, fishing, trapping, prospecting, and boating.

His style of logging is low-impact -- no machines, no roads, and no clearcuts. The only bad thing I can say about handlogging is that the best trees were cut first and the worst trees were left standing, a common practice in that day.

If you are looking for chainsaw stories, there are none, because Handlogger used an ax and a handsaw ! ! ! 

The book doesn't say whether Handlogger ever joined the Sierra Club, but it's clear that he loved the wilderness.


----------



## tramp bushler (Dec 13, 2009)

mtngun said:


> Getting back to the original subject ...... ....... I've finished reading _Handloggers_. It was a good winter read. Not the greatest ever Alaskan story (try _ On the Edge of Nowhere_) but good.
> 
> However, if you're looking for lots of logging stories, it's not there. Only a couple of chapters discuss the handlogging business in any detail. The majority of the book is about living in the wilderness -- hiking, exploring, hunting, fishing, trapping, prospecting, and boating.
> 
> ...


. 

. Now I know you are dumb as a post . I,ve met the author of edge of nowhere , and he wouldn,t make a pimple on Handloggers ass............... Good guy and all that . But not in Handloggers class ..


----------



## tramp bushler (Dec 13, 2009)

woodchopper said:


> Just in case your reading comprehension is a little off because whatever your drinking today I'll go a little slower so you can catch it this time. I DO work in the woods and stated so in my post. Go back and read what I said again. It's there in black and white.
> I wish I could blame the environmental people but foreign {Canadian} competition and a down housing market are what are affecting logging jobs here in American. Anyone who understands business can tell you it has nothing to do with environmentalist. Not even close.
> 
> I guess my comment about your drinking wasn't out of line. Have another one brother. Calling someone a stupid POS on the internet really adds to your credibility.


 .

. Oh , and jack ass , I don,t drink and write ... I,m a Timber Beast ... I really do think this way . If you were around me and you ran your mouth that way . Well , I wouldn,t use my mouth to do my talking !!!!!!!! .


----------



## woodchopper (Dec 13, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . Oh , and jack ass , I don,t drink and write ... I,m a Timber Beast ... I really do think this way . If you were around me and you ran your mouth that way . Well , I wouldn,t use my mouth to do my talking !!!!!!!! .


I'd really be impressed if you could go back and repost something I said to prove I was wrong about your lack of reading comprehension.........anything. Because you can't back up your false comments like a man you try to insult me by calling me a jack ass. Laughable at best my friend.
Anyone that can't back up what they say can be a internet commando. Tough guys are a dime a dozen. If the day ever comes when you can post something that proves me wrong let me know. Don't worry.......I won't hold my breath.


----------



## discounthunter (Dec 13, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> . Oh , and jack ass , I don,t drink and write ... I,m a Timber Beast ... I really do think this way . If you were around me and you ran your mouth that way . Well , I wouldn,t use my mouth to do my talking !!!!!!!! .



chill out and eat another granola bar,how old are you 20?


----------



## tramp bushler (Dec 13, 2009)

If I was such a pos that I was in massassassatwo####s or jauja . I would hope I would be smart enough to not run my mouth at an Alaskan Bushler ....Course beins ya,ll will never go any where where you can fall any real timber , or run a brown bear on foot , or hunt a pack of wolves . ya'll get your thrills running off at the mouth on the internet ......................
.
. If you don,t have anything interesting, fun , amusing or educational to say then just shut up ............... Do a little research on here you will find I,m one of the real deals ................Ya'll out east dumb asses on the other hand should have your own waiting around to implode forum  ..
.
. Red state pinky finger (woods workers ) :spam::deadhorse::deadhorse::bringit::kilt:


----------



## discounthunter (Dec 19, 2009)

i would think real"alaskan bushlers" wouldnt sit around spouting off in the internet.


any pictures of handlogging or picture books of handloggers?


----------



## woodchopper (Dec 19, 2009)

discounthunter said:


> i would think real"alaskan bushlers" wouldnt sit around spouting off in the internet.


If he really did work in the woods he'd know how much this down housing market and foreign competition was hurting logging jobs here in America. The fact that he'd rather hurl out insults instead of sticking to what's been said is rather telling. There's a big difference between a "Real Deal" and someone sitting in their parents cellar in their underwear insulting other posters.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 19, 2009)

This ought to be worth watching. opcorn:


----------



## slowp (Dec 19, 2009)

I believe this is where I'd dive under a table if I couldn't get out the door.opcorn:

Does this place have the sign that says, 

PLEASE! No caulks, guns or knives inside.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 19, 2009)

slowp said:


> I believe this is where I'd dive under a table if I couldn't get out the door.opcorn:
> 
> Does this place have the sign that says,
> 
> PLEASE! No caulks, guns or knives inside.



Your places say "Please" ? That's just downright civilized.


----------



## Burvol (Dec 19, 2009)

People in the industry out west (BC/AK,WA,OR,CA)tend to be proud of their heritage in logging. The generations before us (our families) and what they did was amazing. The experience is not even the same from your perspective to our lives. I smell troll dung here.


----------



## slowp (Dec 19, 2009)

Gologit said:


> Your places say "Please" ? That's just downright civilized.



They USED to. Unfortunately, so many people have moved away that the signs are no longer up. One former tavern is now a Bar and Grill. The other place has been gentrified also. I guess the signs might scare the tourists and their children, since children can now come in. The same in the town to the east.


----------



## Gologit (Dec 19, 2009)

slowp said:


> They USED to. Unfortunately, so many people have moved away that the signs are no longer up. One former tavern is now a Bar and Grill. The other place has been gentrified also. I guess the signs might scare the tourists and their children, since children can now come in. The same in the town to the east.



Yup...pretty much the same here. That last place I saw a "No caulks" sign was in Hyampom...and that was years ago.


----------



## IcePick (Dec 19, 2009)

*hmmm...*

I've always been keen on reading the Tramp Bushler's` posts because I really love his writing style...His vivid descriptions are great...his rolling sentences remind me of someone very quick witted who can't stop for a minute to take a breath so he's gotta keep plugging away what's on his mind. 

Not everyone can get a long, #### the tree crew I work with everyday has different politics new age sierra club hippies to limbaugh loyalists but when it comes time to spiking a 100' tall spruce next to a $500,000 yuppie palace, the politics aren't even a thought in anyones mind. There is a fine line between work and politics. 

I read anyone from Gary Snyder to Robert E. Pike, the politics definitely differ but they've both been out in the woods with a saw or an axe in their hand. 

Perhaps bushler you should post some pics of some work you're doing in the bush, those could speak louder than words.


----------



## tramp bushler (Dec 19, 2009)

*Back east trolls*

I wonder where thier threads of their logging is , with thier pics ect ?


----------



## woodchopper (Dec 19, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> I wonder where thier threads of their logging is , with thier pics ect ?


It would never explain why you chose to attack someone instead of sticking with the topic. Obviously if you were able to put me in my place about my comment about your reading comprehension you would have done it. Instead of admitting you jumped the gun like a "real deal" you hurl insults at three different posters because you couldn't defend your comments. Not very impressive from someone who started their logging career in the great state of Maine.........just like myself.


----------



## tramp bushler (Dec 20, 2009)

Chopper , do you know what it,s like to have your profession destroyed by people who would rather see a snag than a stump .. People who don,t understand the timber but want to see a (wilderness) , eventho they will never go wandering thru it ..... They just want it , they think they are entitled to it ....I loath and despise moderate environmentalists like that jack ass ......... If you are a Maneiac then you know that the national pastime of Maine is fighting ...... I fought every day of my life till I went in the service .... I live in the Interior of Alaska now because we no longer have a real timber industry in Southeast Alaska ........................... Thing to think about is , I,ve logged where you are .. You have prolly never seen where I am and live and work ...... You may want to get alot more life experience before you side with someone who thinks so much of himself he would do all he can to take away your livelihood , and life from you ............... I hope you log to your hearts content ... That guy don,t .. He only wants you to work as much as he thinks you should ............You beginning to see the problem with that .....


----------



## milkman (Dec 20, 2009)

What's with the water up there, another whiner, so held back by others,why don't you go write a book.


----------



## slowp (Dec 20, 2009)

milkman said:


> What's with the water up there, another whiner, so held back by others,why don't you go write a book.



And you should go kick your dog a few times....leave it be. Enough.


----------



## Burvol (Dec 20, 2009)

It's easy to be pissed off about what has happened to the West Coast and the forest here; sun/earth worshipers, apologists that have nothing to fight for but their own selfishness, people just generally out of touch with nature here, and I guess to sum them up...liberals. 

There has been plenty of reasons the timber industry has declined. These queers killed it in our National Forests. Period.


----------

