# Rope Winch



## murphy4trees (Aug 25, 2002)

Rb and Kevin mentioned rope winches in another thread. I never used one. I think their primary use is in moving wood and brush in rough terrain... California hills for example. I rarely have much rough terrain to deal with... just back yards. And so I wonder what this tool could do to save time and effort on residential jobs.
Will I be glad I bought one or will it just take up space on the shelf?
A buddy of mine would like to see a system set up where climber can control his ascent using a winch. I wonder if something could be set up using an ascender or friction hitch with a micro-pulley.
So how much power do these winches have... what are the pros and cons.. etc?
Thanks and God Bless,
Daniel


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## treeclimber165 (Aug 25, 2002)

Only time I've ever used one was about 12 years ago, right after selling my lawn service. It was my first job working for another tree service, and the guy had one that we used a couple times. He used it to tension the rope on back leaners using a 3 to 1 and pulling the tail with the winch. He probably got close to 2000 lbs of pull on that tree. He also used it instead of a regular come-along when installing a cable in a tree.

I've never owned one, although wished I had one hundreds of times over the years. There always seems to be something else that I need more. It is one item that is definitely on my wish list, though.

It says you'd be better off using it on 3 strand or solid core ropes like Arbor-plex or True Blue. I have both these types of ropes, you can just buy one and send it to me for evaluation, Murphy.


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## rbtree (Aug 25, 2002)

Simpson Winch folks recommend using 3 strand on the capstan for better holding power. I dont have any, but do have a 0.5" 10000 lb tensile double braid that works pretty well. If you fill the capstan with wraps, it will not slip if held tightly. In a steady pull situation, I'd guess that a SWL factor of 5-1 would be acceptable stress forces on the rope, so that would be 2000 lb of pull. 

I have used it to be pulled up in a tree, have lifted appx 750 lb tree pieces off houses, tip tied and lifted a hung 90 foot, 17" dbh cherry til it could be cut off the stump then butt chunked down, used as quick lift for long limbs to get them onto a speed line. I used an old 1/2" Arborplex (too slippery) to pull a willow out of a lake, piece by piece. We had a redirect block up 10 feet, best we could achieve, still made it hard to get up the lakeshore. 

For straight pull applications, a traditional wire rope winch would be better. But I know the Lewis winch is poor quality. I have seen two very high quality products, one of which is the Solo, whichj is not imported to NA. The other, at ~$1800, I have not wanted to spring the $ for. 

I modified mine to allow it to be bi directional, however it is good to have a portawrap or other backup, as it doesnt work to well (motor shut off) as a lowering device. The wraps have locked up a couple times, which can be rather disastrous.

Graeme McMahon, the Aussie Euc man, has a device that rides along with you for tree ascension. but it is pricey.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 25, 2002)

If anyone is going to use a capstan winch to move a person you should add some kind of rope brake. If for some reason the rope slips the person could fall.

The best backup is a seperate line that the person can attach to with a belay tool. I sure wouldn't advise any of the toothed ascenders! 

Another, less than optimal, method would be to run the rope through a prusik minding pulley before it enters the winch. Add a klemheist or similar as the brake.

I sold my capstan to Roger becaues I find that I can do more with my ATV. From what Roger tells me, we both are better off. I recovered some cash and he added a useful tool to his livery. Roger, can you show us how you mounted your hot rodded 372 onto the winch? That must really haul some rope! 

I can't even imagine how it would be easier to use the capstan over a come along when cabling.

Tom

Tom


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## treeclimber165 (Aug 25, 2002)

Sorry, guys. I was thinking of the rope puller as shown on page 53 of The Book (item 16071). Like a come-along but it uses your rope instead of cable.
I've never used a gas powered rope winch, although I had a 10 ton PTO powered winch on my boom truck with 5/8" steel cable.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 25, 2002)

I've talked the GRCS up every chance I can get. 

Simplest put, being able to add MA to rigging upwards or pulling trees over will decrease your time on site drasticly. or the regular gravatic rigging we use everyday, a lowered limb hangs up. Just add wraps rto the drum, lock off in the self tailing jaws, insert handle and raise limb up out of whatever is fouling it.

Then there are speed line controls, snaking brush (better with a gas drill though) loading logs into trucks. 

Once you have it you start putting your mind to using it more and more.


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## Nickrosis (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *I've talked the GRCS up every chance I can get.
> *



I noticed.


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## rborist1 (Aug 25, 2002)

:Eye:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 25, 2002)

i used a capstan winch a few times. Best trick was to running bowline the ends of some long branches about 50' off the ground, with a throw line. Then i rigged the butt end in the tree and cut, as they chose that limbs line to draw with the winch. This was fron the backyard, next to the pool fenced off, thick grass and plants. They just drew the limbs over the house, wires, fence, front yard right to the delivery point. It would have been very tedious and riskier any other way except crane methinx, especially threading the limbs outta the yard after missing room built of screen.

When i hurt my leg once and couldn't talk one of my heroes through finishing a few things, so i was drawn up into the tree with this. On the pulley re-direct bertween climber and pull (in my case truck ); this is where i might use a fig. 8, and load the pulley close to the truck and adjust out under tension to get exactly under climber so s/he is pulled vertically up and not at a slant.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 25, 2002)

I've been hauled back up a tree on the GRCS a number of times. Usualy a to retrieve the block on a removal, then block or chunk it down. Even using it as a belay while gaffing up is very nice.


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## rbtree (Aug 25, 2002)

Tom,

I use an 034 Super on the Simpson, plenty of guts. We haven't used it for a few months, but I'm sure it's time will come again soon.

The first and only time I was yarded into a tree was the very first time we used it, just testing it out. I had an overhead block set, tied off at base, with lifeline through it, through a block at base of tree, so winch was used in horizontal aspect. I self belayed myself with pulley slack tender and Vt. Same setup as the spyder's graphic... My friend Terry, who bought the new one from me, has used it a few times for entry. Did you see Graeme's DVD of his winch? I missed it...


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 25, 2002)

I've got one of the rope come alongs but rarely use it. My cable comealong is stronger and easier to set up in 1:1 and 2:1 too.

Roger, I did see a pic of Graeme's power winch. There are plans available to make a unit for a unit like this. The cavers have been known to use a unit like this.

There have been a couple of times that we've used the ATV to hoist the climber. When we do, the climber is using a setup like Spidey diagrammed. Also, the line is attached to the front bollard on the ATV and the driver backs up so that the climber is in full view all of the time.

Tom


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## Graeme (Aug 26, 2002)

If anyone would want me to I will post a pic of "Scotty".

Graeme


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 26, 2002)

Where's Scotty?


Post a bunch of pics. Where can Scotty be purchased?

Tom


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## Greg (Aug 26, 2002)

I have a "rope puller" come-a-long type rope winch made by Massadam(?). It cost about $60 and was worth every penny. It is a great poor mans winch. I don't use it a lot because it is a pain to thread the rope through it and it is slow. You need 1/2 3 strand, even though I have used arbor plex which works pretty well, and have tried double braid which slips. I try not to use it much because it is so slow, but on many occasions it has been a real life saver when pulling over leaners. It is good for about 1500lbs according to the company. This little tool has saved me on several jobs where without it I would have been climbing and chuncking wood. I would not even consider using it for a lot of the applications mentiond in the forum, and it comes no where close to being a GRCS. Being able to lay a tree v.s climbing and taking peices is worth $60 on one job alone . 
--I want a GRCS!!!!
Greg


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## murphy4trees (Aug 27, 2002)

I've seen ther GRCS in action... very impressive.. I Am just waiting for a good excuse to buy one..
I've got and use the rope come along and it's a very handy device... 
They both have their uses and the chainsaw powerhead powerred rope winches are a much differernt animal. 
So any more suggestions on their pros and cons and tips for setup and usage would be appreciated.
Maybe a residential guy like me is better off with an ATV. Time for a new thread perhaps???
Thanks and God Bless All,
Daniel


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 28, 2002)

*GRCS*

I've sent PM's to a few of you guys, but the number of enquiries is growing. 

We can get several people interested in purchacing winches I may be able to talk a vendor into shaving a few bucks off the list. 

This is not an offer from Good Rigging, but i know a few of the people that sell them.

Let me know.


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## Graeme (Sep 21, 2002)

Sorry about the delay, I've been lost in space.
Here's a pic of "Scotty"


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## Graeme (Sep 21, 2002)

Beaming up "Scotty"


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 21, 2002)

Just look at those rippling forearms! Those come from treework!

Who sells Scotty? Cost in Aussie dollars?

Tom


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## rbtree (Sep 21, 2002)

and the roll around the middle? What's up with that?.... The wife's good cooking, Graeme? or lack of a good valet to dress ya...?


What about your address, big guy?


http://www.tufftug.com --is a bit bigger unit that costs $4200 Cdn...


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## Graeme (Sep 23, 2002)

Tom and Roger

My wife is holding the winch, I took the picture. She is saying some very uncomplimetary things about you, advise you do not visit Australia for some time.


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## rbtree (Sep 23, 2002)

oh boy...


"hell hath no fury like a woman scorned..." especially on with such rippling muskles...


am i ever in trubble!

Um, anyone know if Icelnd accepts people on the run? 

I s'pose acceptance of apologies will be out of the realm of possibility.....


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## John Paul Sanborn (Sep 24, 2002)

Maybe if you ship a few iced salmon down there....


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## Rob Murphy (Sep 24, 2002)

*Scotty?*

Graeme
This is the Tassie version of a scotty.yours looks interesting though.
http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?postid=33642
JPS 
are you trying to upset him too.
Salmon is a banned import( some thing to do with fish diseases)
He'd have the quarantine guys swarming all over his property.


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## Yoav (Sep 24, 2002)

*rope winching*

Rob- I've been looking at the photo you posted.I don't understand how the "Tasmanian" Scotty rope winch works. It appears as though the chainsaw is touching the rope. Is this just suicide or can you actually ascend the rope using the saw teeth?! I'd be wary of such dangerous sharpe ways of experimenting with your lifeline. Is it some kind of joke? 



Alternatively, a friend of mine in Cairns, Queensland, told me about tying one end of the rope to the car and having the girlfriend drive down the road- and he was up the tree with no effort. (And indeed, no way to get down on his own). Similar concept to automatic winchings. :


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## rborist1 (Sep 24, 2002)

:Eye:


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## Rob Murphy (Sep 24, 2002)

Graeme
Seriously though can you tell us more about the little winch?
Brand name ,where from,price,applications?...Thanks mate

Yoav

...LOL... I heard of a guy who ( urban myth?) who tied his line to the tow bar of his car so he could work on the back of his roof. He neglected to tell his wife who came out of the house , hopped in the car and drove off...  
Anyway ..how are you going with the project. This might be the forum to ask about that list...
Be careful though I dont know they react to tree scientists


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## Graeme (Jan 12, 2003)

Have got specs here - sorry about the delay, missed the post.
Regards
Graeme


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## Graeme (Jan 12, 2003)

...and here is the other half...
regards
Graeme


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 12, 2003)

i believe this is a pic of 'beam me up Scotty'

Nice to hear from you again Graeme, 
All Aussie's welcome!


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## rborist1 (Jan 12, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Graeme (Jan 12, 2003)

Using the winch to access past very large sheets of loose hanging bark on a dead mature E. regnans. In this situation, the winch comes into its own because there is no bouncing effect created on the rope whilst ascending and the climber can focus on the hazards of dead wood above. 
Graeme


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## Graeme (Jan 12, 2003)

After using explosives to blow the limb off (I was nowhere near the tree when we let it rip ), the winch was used to access back up the tree and past the hanging limb. Again, the climber can focus on th hazards of the situation whilst ascending. Here the winch is being lowered down once the high point is gained.
Anyway, got some video and more photos of the winch in action on that job if interested. 
 ...
Regards
Graeme


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## Oxman (Jan 13, 2003)

Here's a rope capstan winch mounted on a bucket truck. This 900 # capacity upper boom hydraulic winch is on a 55' Teco 4X4 truck with 4 outriggers. It also has major winches mounted in the front & rear bumpers, and will go just about anywhere. Notice the extendable jib that can be rotated around quite a range. We used the capstan as an aerial lowering device to piece down a storm-busted willow over a house in Ashland, Oregon last week.

By the way, John Kakouris has this truck for hire in northern California/southern Oregon, for those of you in the neighborhood.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 13, 2003)

i thought a rope capstan didn't collect line, so maintained leverage as spool diameter was the same, but could have endless travel with endless line? Whereby you had to maintain pull on control end to make it grab rotating drum.

Could such a winch be used for no shock lifting, then used for lifting a man; seeing as you could change the line? Would/is that an exception to not mixing rigging/climbing gear as any overload (non-shock) would make the line slip on the drum, acting as a mechanical fuse, limiting force to capstan system and anchoring?


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## Oxman (Jan 13, 2003)

Either, depending on the capacity of the spool, and amount of power available. In the case of the hydraulic winch, I don't spose all available power is needed for the load.

As far as the 'exception', I assume this means an arbitrary rule confining use of a lifeline to personal support only. I use my climbing lines interchangebly as lowering lines. A rope is a rope, to me. The one in better condition is usually designated the climbing line.

The only time I've seen climbers getting power-lifted (aside from riding the hook of a crane) was in a palm tree. It was a short Washingtonia robusta (Mexican {skinny} Fan Palm). There was a row of these neglected palms in an overgrown English Ivy bed at a motel that had skirts to the ground. The palms were closely spaced, so that it was easier to hop from treetop to treetop rather than work up from the bottom of each one.

The climber came down for lunch and left his rope crotched in. Upon returning, he hooked up and tied the tail of his climbing line to the pickup truck bumper. As he motioned for the driver to creep away, the rope bound up in the leaf bracts and bent the trunk over quite a ways before it started to slide, allowing the trunk to pop upright. It repeatedly 'chattered' sideways & upwards during the ascent, and it looked like the tree could have broken off under the binding.

Use of a pickup for pulling in this application leaves out the sensitivity necessary for the driver to notice when to back off. Using the rope taxi may allow this enhanced control. The MAD ascender (Motorized Ascending Device) was an earlier version from 1971.

MAD


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 13, 2003)

i understood the 'beam me up Scotty' line of Oddese, to refer to human cargo?

i think that all discaimers abide, especially when talking less care/division for safety gear. Of course i go right to the image of 1 ol'boy around here (actually climbed tied in 1st with him); that will climb, rig, descend, tie down load with line dragging on road as he drives off, pull off load (sometimes breaking line, that is hardly ever a recognized specialty line), store around gas under saw sometimes in weather his only line, that he throws in the truck with gas, oil the next day to climb on!! "Flew" him to emergeny once myself, another time i was the one to get his dad; as that thump on the ground seemed harder at the time!

So i stick to the rule of seperation of rigging and climbing gear, as simple enough for me, tieing in 2x when cutting as failsafe strategy, carting a guy off that started you on safety gear is kinda sobering as you remeber it hanging from a frail 1/2" line!! i think OxMan has to make carefull choices because of the scale he works on and still being here to speak, and view that level as an extreme. i think most anyone else should go with a 'religious' seperation of these categories, only perhaps cheating, maybe a few times in years; when you really understand what chances/choices are being made on a large scale.

MAD endless line device looks great! i can imagine in backyard holding a load high in a tree, and MAD drawing load over garden/house/pool in the shortest (literally as bird flys), no labor path to truck. Rather than smaller pieces rigged down, dragged 6x further through obstacles, land mines (doggy doo). Think it would work for line tension/lift, then lower through locked out sheaves to work as polished friction brake?


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## Graeme (Jan 15, 2003)

Another advantage of the access winch I have been using is that after the high point is achieved the winch can be anchored to the trunk and utilized to haul up heavy ropes chainsaws and other equipment. This can be done precisly to the climbers discreation and over the distance to the ground crew reduces communication requirments. I do prefer a rated peice of equipment that is not to say I do not enjoy experimentation  Not withstanding this I still run a seperate safty from my harness to an acender on the rope, above the winch. Why put all your eggs in one basket?


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## alloutdoorsboy (May 7, 2008)

*bump*

So how much would you guys think a personal lifting device like this would be worth????

What would you pay?


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## rbtree (May 8, 2008)

I don't recall, and haven't talked with Graeme about it for some time. I think "Scotty" cost somewhere around $2500......Used to have a link to the website, but it may no longer be available. I'm sure the unit is still being made.

funny you should bring this up, as I have a video of a rather not so kosher (go lurk elsewhere, OSHA) tree re-entry technique we did yesterday......


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## Ekka (May 8, 2008)

Almost $3k Euro unavailable for USA market due to their regs/laws/insurance or some red tape BS


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## alloutdoorsboy (May 8, 2008)

Hey RBTree Id love to see your entry technique as I have been working on one also


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## rbtree (May 8, 2008)

alloutdoorsboy said:


> Hey RBTree Id love to see your entry technique as I have been working on one also



Oh, you will.....but it ain't something that will take the industry by storm....nor is it "kosher" It was just fun, and the ascendee has even more balls as myself...and 25 years of climbing under his belt.


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## Oxman (May 8, 2008)

*2-Person crane ball-riding*

This is starting to sound like a rodeo event.

One person tied into the ball, with another climber tied in about 10 feet below. Filmed on a Lombardy removal project. Inquiring minds wanna see video!


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## rbtree (May 13, 2008)

Hey, I don't think you gave me a copy of that video? I recall seeing the vid you shot on day one....don't think I have it though....pretty sure I never saw day 2...


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## rbtree (May 13, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Starting to sound like a 'pickup truck' entry!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yup...


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