# Workman's Comp



## Baz (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm a sole proprietor of a tree service organized as an LLC with no employees. A contractor that I'd like to do a job for wants me to have either workman's comp or a waiver. The workman's comp board won't give me a waiver because a tree service isn't a construction trade, and my insurance guy tells me the premium for coverage on myself would be $9,000. The job's not worth that much. Anybody else deal with this?


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## kkottemann (Nov 1, 2006)

Yes, I do not know what other state regulations are. But here is Louisiana it is real bad. the best rate I could get for a groundsman is .65 on the dollar and .81 for a climber. I am the sole owner of my tree service and do not have WC for myself. However when you go to sub for bigger companies they expect you to have it. Here I can buy a policy and exclude myself for a flat rate of $1800 -$2000. Talk to an agent and tell them you just have to show WC and sell you a policy. Just don't get hurt. mabe try and get the bigger company to buy half if there is going to be work in the future.


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## PTS (Nov 2, 2006)

Liberty Mutual allows you to estimate how much you plan to pay out in a year to an employee or employees. So if you think you are going to pay an employee only $1000 over a whole year then you would pay the percentage of that estimate, so lets say your rate is 20% you would pay $20 on every $100 you pay to an employee, so your work comp policy for the year is $200. Then at the end of the year they audit you and say you only pay out $500 then you have a credit of $100 which would actually cover your next year because you pay next year based on the previous year. Now if you pay out $2000 and you estimate $1000 you have to pay the difference.


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## Ekka (Nov 2, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> But here is Louisiana it is real bad. the best rate I could get for a groundsman is .65 on the dollar and .81 for a climber.



That's just sick!

Friggin extorsion.

And I wonder why the shareholders didn't ask for 1.00 so they can all get a free holiday to Australia to see how us poor "socialists" only pay 0.0185 for groundies and 0.06 for climbers.


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## kkottemann (Nov 2, 2006)

Ekka,
it is sick. it is one of the biggest things holding me back from growing and adding better equipment ect... I really cost me too much to operate on a daily basis.


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## PTS (Nov 2, 2006)

Talk to Liberty Mutual... You can find them online. They do a percentage and I can't imagine it would change that much state to state.


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## Doctor Dave (Nov 2, 2006)

It's one reason I have to drag brush and burn it in the rain all by myself. Can't afford an above-board employee. My accountant covered his ears and went "I can't hear you" when I said that I paid a friend cash a few times to help out. He said that what I shoud do is do the skilled work, and have the homeowner pay my helper directly, with two checks. Kind of bush league doing that. I'll have to bite the bullet and pay the premium for WC one of these days. Should probably get dissability for myself, too, once I earn a consistently high enough income to insure.


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## Sprig (Nov 2, 2006)

I was going to stay outta this thread but now I'm not. Anybody doing physical, potentially dangerous work, is a fool for not having some sort of coverage, whether its Worker's Comp., private ins., one time job coverage, what-ever. I speak from experience as a person disabled in an accident where I was not covered ('93). Not only stupid but highly inconsiderate to yourself, family, and friends. I am not going into any details on my case, there are previous posts here with sortta explainations, but the gist of the matter is, penny wise pound foolish (gah, bad adage usage, guilty). Shtzz like this changed my life radically forever, and the really part that sucks is that as a private contractor at the time I could have had WCB coverage for about 32.00$ a month. I could have made sure the home-owner was covered for such things, coulda-woulda-shoulda. Fkn meaningless when bad stuff happens. I found out later I could be covered (months after what happened) by WCB but they would have sued my friend and building partner (who I was helping out at the time between other jobs) for my medical expenses, almost 1/4 mil.. I did not have the heart to do it and bit the bullet, no extra stories here. Back to the point, you guys down south have a different insurance system there, shop around and get your azz covered no matter how small the job or I'll be forced to come visit ya with my bud Yogi the dancin' bear ( an da 'slap stick an a six-pac)'. Jokes aside, working any job uninsured is a fool's choice, my 0.07$ worth fer da evening.

:bang: :bang: :bang:


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## Ekka (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah, insurance for workers especially is a must.

But for bosses, forking out like 81% again ontop of the hourly rate is crazy ... over here for workers whether they be contractors or otherwise, they come under the bosses WC. So going the subbie route is not a fix.

See, the govt runs the WC here on a break even deal after costs to keep business overheads down otherwise you'd just not hire ... but hey it can go up if there's claims, the worst I have heard is 0.18

If the WC is at the mercy of Private Insurance companies driven by shareholders and you think that market competition will bring prices down then you're a fool ... just like fuel there'll be collusion and the big insurance companies just buy out the small ones, they dont do price wars (not here anyway). See the reason why is coz you are compelled to have WC and those grubs know it.

Just like that national dont buy fuel day to shove it up the oil companies, didn't make one bit of difference and only inconvenienced you!

Lets have a look at some of those insurance companies and see their profits ... got some names?

Also, if the private insurance companies were operating in a govt regulated break even market what you'd find is the chiefs would all be getting fat $20 million salaries and benefits that the ole govt desk bound clerk wont be. They'll suck it for every cent.

There's just some things you cant trust to corporations.


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## Doctor Dave (Nov 3, 2006)

Sprig said:


> I was going to stay outta this thread but now I'm not. Anybody doing physical, potentially dangerous work, is a fool for not having some sort of coverage, whether its Worker's Comp., private ins., one time job coverage, what-ever. I speak from experience as a person disabled in an accident where I was not covered ('93). Not only stupid but highly inconsiderate to yourself, family, and friends. I am not going into any details on my case, there are previous posts here with sortta explainations, but the gist of the matter is, penny wise pound foolish (gah, bad adage usage, guilty). Shtzz like this changed my life radically forever, and the really part that sucks is that as a private contractor at the time I could have had WCB coverage for about 32.00$ a month. I could have made sure the home-owner was covered for such things, coulda-woulda-shoulda. Fkn meaningless when bad stuff happens. I found out later I could be covered (months after what happened) by WCB but they would have sued my friend and building partner (who I was helping out at the time between other jobs) for my medical expenses, almost 1/4 mil.. I did not have the heart to do it and bit the bullet, no extra stories here. Back to the point, you guys down south have a different insurance system there, shop around and get your azz covered no matter how small the job or I'll be forced to come visit ya with my bud Yogi the dancin' bear ( an da 'slap stick an a six-pac)'. Jokes aside, working any job uninsured is a fool's choice, my 0.07$ worth fer da evening.
> 
> :bang: :bang: :bang:




I do feel like a fool when I'm up a tree and realize that bad things could happen---with no disability insurance. But to get that, you have to establish a big enough income to make it worth insuring. Kind of a catch 22. I am on my wife's family coverage policy for medical through her work. Not the same, I know.


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## PTS (Nov 3, 2006)

I recently had an incident that was not tree related and found myself unable to work for over a month. I have disability insurance and got my one and only check which under my policy doesn't start until after one full month of disability and when I went back a week or so after that I got a big $300. Big Deal. I think disability insurance for a person who owns there own company (in which the company can keep running day in and day out with or without you) shouldn't waist your money on the personal disability policy. Even though you aren't working your company is and you can still collect your paycheck. SO I am canceling mine because it is a big waist of money. On the other hand if you aren't working and you don't have someone working on your behalf meaning you won't be collecting your regular check then it is a good deal. 

Side note check with Hartford Insurance. They are Members of TCIA and have and arborist program for insurance. I just recently checked into switching with them and they go into grave detail about your business, safety plans, manuals, meetings, records, training, certifications. They factor all of that in and give discounts based on your level of proffessionalism. I haven't got my estimate on premiums back yet but we will see how they compare.

Something at least worth checking into if you struggle with the insuance issue. Another company that insures tree services at a reasonalble rate is West Bend Mutual. Check them out.


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## Doctor Dave (Nov 3, 2006)

PTS said:


> I recently had an incident that was not tree related and found myself unable to work for over a month. I have disability insurance and got my one and only check which under my policy doesn't start until after one full month of disability and when I went back a week or so after that I got a big $300. Big Deal. I think disability insurance for a person who owns there own company (in which the company can keep running day in and day out with or without you) shouldn't waist your money on the personal disability policy. Even though you aren't working your company is and you can still collect your paycheck. SO I am canceling mine because it is a big waist of money. On the other hand if you aren't working and you don't have someone working on your behalf meaning you won't be collecting your regular check then it is a good deal.
> 
> Side note check with Hartford Insurance. They are Members of TCIA and have and arborist program for insurance. I just recently checked into switching with them and they go into grave detail about your business, safety plans, manuals, meetings, records, training, certifications. They factor all of that in and give discounts based on your level of proffessionalism. I haven't got my estimate on premiums back yet but we will see how they compare.
> 
> Something at least worth checking into if you struggle with the insuance issue. Another company that insures tree services at a reasonalble rate is West Bend Mutual. Check them out.




I'll check it out


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## Baz (Nov 4, 2006)

Thanks, guys. Helpful tips, will check them out.


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## PTS (Nov 4, 2006)

Baz,

What are you doing up at 4:00AM.... You can't cut trees at 4:00am


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## Baz (Nov 5, 2006)

lol. Well, sometimes when insomnia drops in to visit, I go online for a bit.


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## kkottemann (Nov 5, 2006)

the absoulte worst place in the entire world for any Insurance, including WC is Louisiana. My buddy has the best rate around for his groundies but he had to open another business on paper related to landscapeing to get .39 cents on the dollar. However, he is playing with fire there. Yea!!! I could work a lot cheeper if it were not for the outrageous insurance rates.


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## Darin (Nov 6, 2006)

Baz it will cost you $20 in Indiana.
http://www.in.gov/dor/taxforms/pdfs/wcfrm.pdf


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## Darin (Nov 6, 2006)

Baz, didn't arboristsite.com pay for itself in the first week?


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## Treecareconcept (Dec 7, 2006)

*Workers Comp*

What about creative wages? I remember hearing about a utility trimming contractor working in CA that paid their employees a lower wage then made up the difference in a "Production Bonus". The WC rate applied to the hourly wage but I think the "Production Bonus" was exempt. As far as I know they with held all applicable income and SSA taxes.
I'm not sure if this was legal and legit but it does sound interesting.
Has anyone ever heard of this practice?


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