# Termination knot, siezing vs splices.



## pdqdl (Aug 25, 2009)

There have been a number of posts recently on whipping beeline, splicing beeline, knots failing (Close Call!), and general curiosity about this rope. It is a singularly tough little rope, you can't melt it even if you put a blowtorch on it.

Splicing is difficult for tress cords done with Beeline, because a double braid class II splice requires (using conventional instructions) such a deep insertion that it cannot be effectively done on a short tress cord or prussic loop (splices are pretty easy on longer sections of rope). Installing locking brummels in the commercially spliced loops apparently compensates for the shorter core bury. It helps that a splice is so neat and tidy in a climbing rig, compared to big bulky knots. Unfortunately, the buried tail of the splices also stiffen the rope, so splices don't work as effectively for a friction hitch as just tying the rope to the carabiner.

Some knots are nearly infallible. Then there is the occasional report of a failed knot, and we all start to question the equipment we are using. Soooo....I have what I think is a solution. I have every confidence that you guys will give me all the feedback required to determine if this is a good method of attaching a prussic loop to a carabiner for a friction hitch or to d-rings as a bridge: Add seizing to the tail to secure it permanently.

Use a double (or triple) fisherman knot, leaving a 1"-2" tail, with several easy additional steps:

1 Secure the cover to the core on both ends with cross stitching, per the maker's instructions.
2. Tie your knots, carefully setting and loading to make sure that they are just the way you want them. Be sure to leave the loop around the carabiner loose enough to allow removal of the carabiner when in use.
3. Cross stitch and then whip the tail to the loaded leg of the prussic loop. By securing the tail, you prevent the knot from creeping “untied” before it is detected, much like a stopper knot. A stopper knot might be better, but there is little room on the setup for all those knots.
Photo's below.

This would be the attachment point to the carabiner in a VT or other friction hitch. The cross stitching is done with strands from a *yellow* stable-braid rope, ends were knotted and melted down. 

I know, some guys prefer a triple fisherman, but I think it is unnecessary for the purpose of this photo. Trying to keep things simple. Three view of the same knot:











In the photos above, you can see that the knot has not been pulled real tight to the 'biner. Although it is tight enough to keep it in position on the 'biner, the knot is easily removed from the carabiner. The lock stitching prevents the knot from sliding further down.






This is a on an adjustable sling for attaching my ascender to a foot-loop. Note the whipping in addition to the cross stitching. This would never be my sole support line, because the only thing holding it together is the stitching. (Of course, a 5-loop tautline hitch is certainly secured with a stopper knot, I substituted the siezing)






Advantages to this method:
I think the double/triple fisherman's knot is as strong and secure as any other knot in this application, it has the added features of tailing in the right direction, exceptional strength, and a pretty streamlined knot. Securing the tail in this fashion adds security and should also prevent the enclosed loop from over-tightening onto the carabiner.

If the cross stiitching & whipping should fail, it should be easily detected BEFORE the knot fails, as the knot will slide down a little bit onto the carabiner and all the thread will start hanging out of the rope.

Cross stitching into a looser loop will ensure ease of inspecting the loop where the carabiner is rubbing.

Disadvantages: Once cross stitched, you are not going to re-tie the knot, except with a pocket knife to cut the stitches out.

Regarding strength: I am using this report as my basis for strength of the knot: http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/46/doitie.html

Some threads on this topic were: 
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=107023&highlight=beeline (this one inspired this thread: I don't want to fall, either)
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=93223&highlight=bee+line
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=103684
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=100988&highlight=beeline


----------



## Nailsbeats (Aug 25, 2009)

Looks fine to me, I'd run it.


----------



## lego1970 (Aug 25, 2009)

That's pretty nice looking, sadly I don't know anything about splicing or stiching so I normally leave a good 5" tail on my knots, load them real good, and then tape the tail and main line together real good with electrical tape. It's still easy to visually check if the knot is creeping because it will ruffle the tape at the end. 

I like your method a whole lot better, but I just lack the knowledge to do it and with trying to get my ISA Arborist certificate I feel my brain is already bombarded with trying learn new things.


----------



## 046 (Aug 25, 2009)

being the devil's advocate.... sewing through the rope could cut internal cords. 

it'd be a good idea to send a few of your finished knots for pull to destruction testing. 

until then... it's a bad idea to use double fisherman with any slippery rope. mfg of slippery ropes using Dyneema or Spectra have been recommending triple fisherman for termination. 

it'd take a bit of convincing to switch from my old standby of triple fisherman, then lashed, for termination that will not be untied.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 25, 2009)

Well it's nice to see that someone else is seizing the ends and cutting them short. Your whipping is much prettier than my cross stitching. Thanks!

I just KNEW somebody would pick on my double. Triple is admittedly a litte more secure, just a little bulkier. Beeline is not "slick" to my way of thinking, but others have reported that they don't like the cover-creep.

Regarding cross stitching: Yale instructs the user to cross stitch the ends to prevent cover separation on Beeline. You can't melt the ends, and I guess they don't recognize the super-glue trick yet.


----------



## moray (Aug 25, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> ...Splicing is difficult for tress cords done with Beeline, because a double braid class II splice requires (using convention instructions) such a deep insertion that it cannot be effectively done on a short tress cord or prussic loop (splices are pretty easy on longer sections of rope). Installing locking brummels in the commercially spliced loops apparently compensates for the shorter core bury. It helps that a splice is so neat and tidy in a climbing rig, compared to big bulky knots. Unfortunately, the buried tail of the splices also stiffen the rope, so splices don't work as effectively for a friction hitch as just tying the rope to the carabiner.
> 
> Regarding strength: I am using this report as my basis for strength of the knot: http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/46/doitie.html...



Hmmm. This reminds me, with no disrespect intended, of a thread describing how to make a ring-and-ring false crotch using some sort of double braid rope. A huge amount of work to make something that is cheap and easy to make using other materials.

So, first question, why Beeline? I know it seems to be wildly popular, and much as I want to see Yale, in my home state, prosper, I don't get it. I assume you are after a strong, heat-resistant, reliable, and long-lasting tress cord. How about Ice Tail? No problem splicing, no problem of separate core and cover, no problem with unreliable knots in HM cord, no problem with knots that weaken your rope by half, no problem getting a finished product that is supple and entirely reliable when it grabs your climbing line.

Second question--I guess there isn't one. I seem to remember reading about another problem with knots in kernmantle-type ropes like Beeline, that if the core is slippery HM fiber, the core can crawl right out of the knot leaving the knotted cover behind. This won't happen with the modest loads you will apply, and with a triple fisherman's and a secured tail your setup should be bulletproof.

The interesting strength test you cited tested the double fisherman's in conventional cordage. Your results will be worse though undoubtedly more than adequate.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Aug 25, 2009)

*Grizzly Splice?*

Concerning Bee-Line and splicing, what's the wisdom about Sherrill's Grizzly-Splice? It seems really good to be able to inspect the line and the splice thread through their transparent heat shrink at any time, before during and after a climb. Any experience? Opinions?


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 25, 2009)

I was hoping you would chime in there Moray!

I have responses in COLOR



moray said:


> Hmmm. This reminds me, with no disrespect intended, of a thread describing how to make a ring-and-ring false crotch using some sort of double braid rope. A huge amount of work to make something that is cheap and easy to make using other materials.
> 
> I don't know about that thread. This is pretty simple: rope, string and needle, & 'biners. What could be easier? You would need to put in the same cross stitching into a splice, so no gain there.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I know...Each rope type will change the test results. But it still documents the strength of the double overhand (fisherman's). I like the unspliced Beeline as a tress cord. It ties and holds very nicely. AFter a bit of use, it does soften up somewhat; I think that improves it's ability to bind on the main line.

Ice Tail might be just as good, I just don't have any of that.


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 26, 2009)

I really don't know what Grizzley-spliced means. I suspect that the products they are selling are just sewn together and heat shrunk. Probably an ok product, but done cheaper than a traditional splice. 

"Grizzley-spliced" sounds like some marketing term that means to convince you that sewing them together is somehow better than a traditional splice. 

They look a bit clunky to work around, too. But then again, so are knots.


----------



## moray (Aug 26, 2009)

Good answer, pdqdl. And since I have never so much as held any Beeline in my hand, I probably shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place. I have plans to test some one of these days.


----------



## outofmytree (Aug 26, 2009)

046 said:


> being the devil's advocate.... sewing through the rope could cut internal cords.
> 
> it'd be a good idea to send a few of your finished knots for pull to destruction testing.
> 
> ...



What do you do when you want to pass your lifeline through a cambium saver?

I am a big fishermans fan. Triple for stoppers and double for loops. Superglue is recommended by the supplier of beeline over here as the "approved" method of preventing kermantle creeping.


----------



## moray (Aug 26, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> ...I am a big fishermans fan. Triple for stoppers and double for loops. Superglue is recommended by the supplier of beeline over here as the "approved" method of preventing kermantle creeping.



While you guys are busy supergluing and seizing and tying huge knots backed up by big knots, I could build a small boat. Or splice about 20 tress cords in Ice Tail! But I love the pictures of your work!


----------



## pdqdl (Aug 26, 2009)

Now wait a minute! Them's fightin' words! :jester:

I'll bet huge volumes of money that I can tie a double fisherman knot faster than you can stuff a tail on a splice. And I know that you are not noticeably faster at cross stitching, either.

Besides, I would make you do a class II double braid splice with locking brummel, since you don't get to compare using IceTail. Althogh I haven't had my hands on any of that, rumor has it that it flattens out too much and makes a wishy-washy tress cord. So there!

046's rope shown above looks like 16 strand, and I KNOW you can't splice that faster than he can tie and whip a triple F.


----------



## 046 (Aug 26, 2009)

triple fisherman shown is on a split tail and obviously not meant to be untied. termination knots that need to be untied uses a figure eight backed up with a double fisherman. 

these are the termination knots I trust my life to. 








outofmytree said:


> What do you do when you want to pass your lifeline through a cambium saver?
> 
> I am a big fishermans fan. Triple for stoppers and double for loops. Superglue is recommended by the supplier of beeline over here as the "approved" method of preventing kermantle creeping.


----------



## moray (Aug 26, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> Now wait a minute! Them's fightin' words! :jester:
> 
> I'll bet huge volumes of money that I can tie a double fisherman knot faster than you can stuff a tail on a splice. And I know that you are not noticeably faster at cross stitching, either...



Ah, well, if you're going to resort to the facts, then I lose.


----------



## SINGLE-JACK (Aug 26, 2009)

046 said:


>



Your triple with seizing is really nice work. Curious though, why you don't use frapping turns. Am I wasting my time?


----------

