# Explosive Takedowns



## Appalachian (Nov 8, 2010)

Hello Arboristsite members. I'm new here and this is my first post. 
Does anyone know why the forest service uses explosives in takedowns?
Seems like it would be alot more expensive than just cutting them down. 

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20101108/NEWS/311080020


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## slowp (Nov 8, 2010)

Yes. Explosives can be used when the tree is too rotten to be safely taken down. They probably don't want any equipment running around in the woods either. So, explosives are figured to be the safest way.


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## Gologit (Nov 8, 2010)

They're also just plain fun sometimes. Boys and their toys, ya know.


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## PinnaclePete (Nov 8, 2010)

Forest Service personell prepare to blast a tree in Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest . Proper placement of the charge allows the blaster to manage the direction the tree will fall, to minimize the impact to nearby live trees and the surrounding area. 


Your tax dollars at work, does look like it would be fun to be on the crew for a day.


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## forestryworks (Nov 8, 2010)

With explosives, how much directional control do you have over directional falling?

That tree in the picture looks decently sound to me - bark looks tight.


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## spanky1205 (Nov 8, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> With explosives, how much directional control do you have over directional falling?
> 
> That tree in the picture looks decently sound to me - bark looks tight.



Believe it or not a tree will fall on the same side you place an explosive charge. Meaning if you put the carge on the north side of the tree the tree should fall toward the north. That being said the forces of nature still have a say in everything. The military has been using these tactics to slow down the enemy for more years than I can probaby count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis


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## madhatte (Nov 8, 2010)

I can think of a few here that probably want to be blasted down on account of the fact that they're not sound enough to fall safely. Bark notwithstanding, big, loose, dead limbs are killers.


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## DangerTree (Nov 8, 2010)

I wish I had pics we had a huge block of rotten birch and small cottonwood. I was in charge of pre snagging the block for right of way logging. I used a few rolls about 1000' of det cord PETN and by wrapping one tree after another I guess I wrapped 40 or so trees we cut em' down all at once. The stand was quite dead and almost too dangerous to enter. All that you needed to do was bump one and you could start a chain reaction. That is standard operating procedure before machines can enter the block. You would think it's awesome to see and it is kind of cool but mostly just a loud crack and a bunch of collapsing trees. And you you have an instant jackpot! It looks like a tornado hit it.


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## coastalfaller (Nov 8, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> With explosives, how much directional control do you have over directional falling?
> 
> That tree in the picture looks decently sound to me - bark looks tight.



You would be surprised, Jameson! We've blown trees for years. You get some pretty nasty ones every now and then. Can usually make them fall right into lay! I'm talking about the ones that make the hair on the back of your neck stand up when you're checking it out! As previously mentioned, they make saws every day, there's only one of you! Way safer than sticking your saw into it and more productive too. The faller doesn't have to spend 1/2 hr or more trying to get this thing on the ground w/o getting killed in the process.


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## Greystoke (Nov 8, 2010)

I wish I would've had something to blast some of the nasty old cobs that I have cut down. Brought up at safety meetings and the bullbuck would say "just call me on the radio and I will come fall it for you"...Like I was gonna do that!


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## palogger (Nov 8, 2010)

Could possibly be in a wilderness area where mechanized/saws arent allowed to be used


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## RandyMac (Nov 8, 2010)

tarzanstree said:


> I wish I would've had something to blast some of the nasty old cobs that I have cut down. Brought up at safety meetings and *the bullbuck would say "just call me on the radio and I will come fall it for you"*...Like I was gonna do that!



I had that same very thing told to me, there wasn't a second time.

The only tree blasting I saw, was splitting butt logs that were too big to move.


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## Greystoke (Nov 8, 2010)

RandyMac said:


> The only tree blasting I saw, was splitting butt logs that were too big to move.



Ahhh, the good ol days!


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## komatsuvarna (Nov 8, 2010)

forestryworks said:


> With explosives, how much directional control do you have over directional falling?
> 
> That tree in the picture looks decently sound to me - bark looks tight.



Ive never blasted any trees, but do shoot rock on a regular basis. I know with rock, you can steer it anyway you want and pretty much make it do whatever you want it to. Its all controlled by how you wire it up..... but thats on a shot that takes 4 days to drill and 1 long day to load, and 5 to 8,000 LBS of explosives.


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## slowp (Nov 8, 2010)

I read a critical piece about it. It was put out by a tree hugger organization protesting it. 

According to them, it is taking place in a wilderness area. If so, then it takes a bit of politicking to allow chainsaws in. A bit less for explosives, as the trail crews get to use explosives to get big rocks off wilderness trails. And to blow up dead horses, not to be confused with the Waldport Whale fiasco. What goes up, can come down. :greenchainsaw:


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## Spotted Owl (Nov 8, 2010)

slowp said:


> I read a critical piece about it. It was put out by a tree hugger organization protesting it.
> 
> According to them, it is taking place in a wilderness area. If so, then it takes a bit of politicking to allow chainsaws in. A bit less for explosives, as the trail crews get to use explosives to get big rocks off wilderness trails. And to blow up dead horses, not to be confused with the Waldport Whale fiasco. What goes up, can come down. :greenchainsaw:




My Mrs. grew up in Florence. Many of her family still have chunks of that whale they blasted up by the Driftwood. It wasn't a mist that came back down. Her grand dad has pictures of busted windscreens(he still calls them that), mash in hoods and tops of cars. According to him some of the chunks were the size of basketballs and bigger, lots the size of baseballs. Not many place to hide on that stretch of beach.

I think I would rather be in the wilderness area blasting trees. Better places to hide and much more careful with the powder measure.

We get a training film every year about this in case we find something on the right of way. The stuff I have seen was like a collar on the tree and then a cord started with a shotgun shell in a flair gun type of affair. I think it's det cord or something. I do know that, that stuff once you pull the trigger on the shell gets to the charge damn fast. Very cool. I have heard but not seen that they will some times make a kerf or two and the put det cord in the kerf to blast a belly hang'in hazzard, that would be neat to see also.

I no blast zones when we need a hole we have a super expansion powder. Drill a main hole an a bunch of relief holes to get your diameter, fill the main hole with the powder and a straw with holes up and down it, then pour water in the straw. That stuff isn't horrible fast but it is strong and will bust out nonfishered nonfractured bed rock. I wonder what that would do to a tree. Tap it for a ring count and the fill the hole with the powder, if nuthin else it would sound neat.



Owl

Very cool stuff


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## slowp (Nov 8, 2010)

It seems to me that a Volkswagen Beetle got smashed. My memory of that story is flawed, and it seems like a Volkswagen Beetle got smashed in another incident, not involving explosives, but a helicopter having to jetison a load of water filled piss bags on the way to the fireline. I believe that was by Lake Chelan. 

Maybe Volkswagens are prone to getting smashed and got it at both places. 
It does make the story even better. 

Ooops, off topic, sorry. 

The DNR blew up a fireline, but we had to hunker behind a big rock with fingers in ears and didn't get to see anything. I was bummed.


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## Thorcw (Nov 9, 2010)

I can see the advantage to using explosives for special case falling. The charge more then likely isnt really that big. I could see it if they used saws the park could be open could have an extreme enviromentalist trying to halt your progress but with explosives you can shut the area down and it could become criminal to intervine.


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## Greystoke (Nov 9, 2010)

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## madhatte (Nov 9, 2010)

Thorcw said:


> I could see it if they used saws the park could be open could have an extreme enviromentalist trying to halt your progress but with explosives you can shut the area down and it could become criminal to intervine.



Whoah, that's a good point.


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## hammerlogging (Nov 9, 2010)

Yo Tarz you know i dig your big timber falling days, that goes without saying, but you really pulled one off by coming up with that fabulous whale clip!


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## Gologit (Nov 9, 2010)

The exploding whale video is a classic. They show it at every safety meeting and re-cert class for explosives that I've ever been to.

There are endless charts and graphs and computer programs for every material that you could possibly want to use explosives on...except whale blubber.


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## Greystoke (Nov 9, 2010)

I can't take credit...just saw it on another tree forum.


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## Philbert (Nov 9, 2010)

A forest service guy once told me that they had a couple of reasons to blast a tree (aside from being fun). One reason was the dangerous-to-fell trees already mentioned. 

The second reason is that it leaves a rough and splintered stump, which looks more like the tree fell from natural causes (rot, lighting, etc.), instead of the smooth sawn stump left by a chainsaw or cross cut saw. This is apparently more desirable in wilderness or 'natural' areas, especially if you are not going to harvest the log.

Philbert


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## DangerTree (Nov 10, 2010)

Yeah thats right and like I said earlier it looks like a tornado went through.


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## Thorcw (Nov 10, 2010)

Philbert said:


> A forest service guy once told me that they had a couple of reasons to blast a tree (aside from being fun). One reason was the dangerous-to-fell trees already mentioned.
> 
> The second reason is that it leaves a rough and splintered stump, which looks more like the tree fell from natural causes (rot, lighting, etc.), instead of the smooth sawn stump left by a chainsaw or cross cut saw. This is apparently more desirable in wilderness or 'natural' areas, especially if you are not going to harvest the log.
> 
> Philbert



I like this logic better


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## slowp (Nov 10, 2010)

I suggested to the town people that they hold a parade and celebration every time a dead whale washed up. Dead Whale Days. After we had a big storm, Highway 101 was blocked with slides and the tourists were staying home. A dead whale washed up and tourism picked up. 

That whale was buried, with metal strips so the skeleton could be salvaged after the flesh was gone. 

Dead whales are every dog's fantasy!

Trail crews really do blow up horses that die on the trails or nearby. I have not seen a video. It would be a sad thing.


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## Joe46 (Nov 11, 2010)

Friend of mine used to run a pack string into the Olympic NP. Had a horse die on him. He had to dig a hole and bury it. I'm sure he would have preferred the the Dupont method.


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## MURT (Nov 13, 2010)

Thirdly, the Forest Service always does #### the least efficient way possible!
And if they can't manage it on their own, they hire an outside engineer for 70$ an hour to find an even more wasteful way!
From what I hear, back in the day they got a hell of a lot more done with less, but from working on trail crews on FS contracted projects and watching their own crews , these days they suck. Just like communist russia, gov't has no profit motive so it Fails!


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## Philbert (Nov 13, 2010)

MURT said:


> Thirdly, the Forest Service always does #### the least efficient way possible!
> And if they can't manage it on their own, they hire an outside engineer for 70$ an hour to find an even more wasteful way!
> From what I hear, back in the day they got a hell of a lot more done with less, but from working on trail crews on FS contracted projects and watching their own crews , these days they suck. Just like communist russia, gov't has no profit motive so it Fails!



Interesting logic Murt. Welcome to A.S. and thank you for sharing your perspectives.

Even if our government was efficient it still would not have a profit motive, er, because it is Government, not a private business. Would it still be like 'communist Russia' (and specifically Russia, or communist governments in general)? 

Since you state that you worked on contracted projects, for a profit motivated business I assume, but paid by a government agency that 'sucks' (your term) does that mean that your work 'sucks'? Or only that you are willing to work for an organization that is as bad as 'communist Russia'?

Just curious.

Philbert


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## joesawer (Nov 14, 2010)

Spotted Owl said:


> My Mrs. grew up in Florence. Many of her family still have chunks of that whale they blasted up by the Driftwood. It wasn't a mist that came back down. Her grand dad has pictures of busted windscreens(he still calls them that), mash in hoods and tops of cars. According to him some of the chunks were the size of basketballs and bigger, lots the size of baseballs. Not many place to hide on that stretch of beach.
> 
> I think I would rather be in the wilderness area blasting trees. Better places to hide and much more careful with the powder measure.
> 
> ...





I have wondered about using that expansion powder for lifting trees.
If you had a ram to put it in the add water it would make a hell of a jack, but it would be a one shot deal. Kind of like firing a rocket in slow motion.


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## slowp (Nov 14, 2010)

Explosives USED to be used to create snags. Wildlife 'ologists liked it because of those previously mentioned rough tops you get. The contractors would shoot up a small line with a bow and arrow, then work the explosive charge up using a bigger line, get it up and KABOOM or Pfft. I never got to see the explosion so don't know what the noise level was.

Somebody was killed or maimed, and now snags are created by topping trees.
To me, that sounds more dangerous than explosives, but I'm no expert.


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## komatsuvarna (Nov 14, 2010)

I was at the joyce kilmer wildneress area yesterday. I do some bear hunting with hounds close to there and one of my dogs ended up in that area. They have the area roped off and closed down. I was talking to one of the guys that was standing around making sure nobody came in the blasting area and he said that the loader climbs these dead hemlocks and bore a hole in the tree then blast the top half off it. I really didnt understand the whole concept cause if the tree was safe to climb in the first place, why not cut it while there up there. He wasnt wanting to volunteer much information, and I was just wanting my dog so I could go home. I sit around shooting the breeze for about 15 minutes and my dog came out and I loaded up and left him with it.


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## slowp (Nov 14, 2010)

Once again, it is *Wilderness.* They'd have to get special permission from somebody high up, who probably would take a while, to use a chainsaw. Motorized things are illegal in *Wilderness.* So are bicycles. 
Kite skiing was deemed to be illegal to do in an Oregon *Wilderness* area. 

Meanwhile, they could use crosscut saws. I think explosives are faster. 

You've also got the jagged, more natural look to consider, and believe me, making things look natural in the *Wilderness*, is important.Edited: Looked it up, this is an Officially Designated Wilderness so it would be subject to the Wilderness Act Of 1965. Here's an excerpt.

_PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES


(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area._

Here's a link.
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm


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