# My splitter build



## Haywire Haywood (May 26, 2009)

Well... not really a build, more like some assembly required before use. Here's the 28gpm pump that I got off ebay for $329 and the 3 point hitch splitter I got from ericjeeper in trade for a BP rifle. It's a 4" cylinder and the control valve is open center, so I won't have to buy a new one. 

The hoses are going to be 3/4 all around except for the suction line from tank to pump. That will be 1". Stopped by Napa today and talked to them about making them. The plan is to get it finished and then tow it to them. They'll make up what I need on the spot.

I went down to a local metal fab shop and ordered the tank/axle today. It's going to be 3/16 plate folded into a tube 12" tall x 6" wide x 48" long and will have one baffle inside to slow down the swirlies. They said it would be about a week. It'll hold about 15 gallons of fluid. I picked up 3 buckets of Supertech R&O hydraulic oil from Walmart yesterday. 

Dustytools is scrounging up some 6" square tube drops to use for axle spacers. Another buddy of mine has a pair of bolt on torsion axle hubs he's contributing. Gotta appreciate friends... They sometimes make life cheaper. Sometimes they coerce you into driving across state lines to watch people run chainsaws. 

I originally bought a return line filter from Tractor Supply, but in looking at it online that night, found that it was only rated at 20gpm. I returned it today and ordered the large 35gpm filter from Northern Tool. It's got 1.25" fittings  Had the fab shop weld a 1.25" nipple into the tank and I'll screw the filter mount right to it like I've seen on other splitters. On the inside, there will be a 45 deg elbow to direct it down and away from the intake. I bought a 1.25 x .75 bushing to adapt the 3/4 return line to the other side of the filter housing.

I need to go look at a lawnmower graveyard this week after work and see about getting an engine. Will post more pics as the pieces come together.

So far, I have $485 in pump, fittings, filter housing and oil... the tank will be about $125 and so will the mower engine. It appears that I'm looking at about $735 + hoses out of pocket.


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## BuddhaKat (May 26, 2009)

Nice. Nice looking welds too.


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## Haywire Haywood (May 26, 2009)

It's an old Special Products Co. splitter.. better known as Speeco now. They tell me that it was made in '78 or '79.

Ian


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## gink595 (May 26, 2009)

Hey that thing looks familiar, 28 GPM with a 4" should have a awesome cycle time!


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## ericjeeper (May 26, 2009)

*Lol*



gink595 said:


> Hey that thing looks familiar, 28 GPM with a 4" should have a awesome cycle time!



I have never seen it before. I never even noticed all those quick couplings up by the valve... 
But then again the one I had needed a bath in the worst of ways. Good luck and keep us posted with pics as it all comes together.


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## Rookie1 (May 26, 2009)

Nice work. Your first pic swallowed my monitor. Keep us updated. Oh ya you must not be bored enough to sort underware now that you have this to work on.


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## Haywire Haywood (May 26, 2009)

Not even washed yet.... LOL

I have to keep in mind that not everyone has a 24" wide screen monitor. It's not that big on mine...

Ian


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## dustytools (May 26, 2009)

Dont run out and buy a suction line just yet. I had to buy way more than I needed when I built my splitter. Ill have a look in the shop tomorrow night after work to see what I have leftover.


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## Haywire Haywood (May 26, 2009)

2000 lb torsion axles.. one hub and tire not yet arrived on the scene.


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## Rookie1 (May 26, 2009)

I like the suspension. I hate pulling splitters with none. Keep picturing splitter doing loopdeloops on rough roads.


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## boostnut (May 27, 2009)

Thats gonna be one nice machine. I noticed something you may want to address. Regular pipe fittings are a no-no on the pressure lines. You've got a few 90's and a short nipple that should be replaced with proper hydraulic fittings. Yeah, I'm sure its been that way for years but for a few bucks (surpluscenter.com) you'll have a much safer setup. Keep up the good work!


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## Haywire Haywood (May 27, 2009)

dustytools said:


> Dont run out and buy a suction line just yet. I had to buy way more than I needed when I built my splitter. Ill have a look in the shop tomorrow night after work to see what I have leftover.



Thanks! Missed your post yesterday... I don't think I'll need more than 18", and probably more like 12. The pump is going to be pretty close to the tank bung.



boostnut said:


> Thats gonna be one nice machine. I noticed something you may want to address. Regular pipe fittings are a no-no on the pressure lines. You've got a few 90's and a short nipple that should be replaced with proper hydraulic fittings. Yeah, I'm sure its been that way for years but for a few bucks (surpluscenter.com) you'll have a much safer setup. Keep up the good work!



Yea, all that will be replaced when it's re-plumbed. The ports on the cylinder itself and the valve outputs are 1/2". I'm going to have 45° 3/4" elbows coming off them and 3/4" line to maximize flow. Since the ports themselves are 1/2" and the elbows aren't hard 90s, the restriction should be minimal if any, at least that's the plan. I know almost nothing about hydraulics other than what I've read here. The supply and return ports on the valve are 3/4 already so no adapters will be needed there. 

Ian


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## dustytools (May 27, 2009)

Ian, I have your steel and a 26" piece of 1" I.D. suction line in the bed of my truck for ya.


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## Haywire Haywood (May 27, 2009)

Nice... Now to find a good reason for both of us to drive to Lexington.

Ian


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## dustytools (May 27, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Nice... Now to find a good reason for both of us to drive to Lexington.
> 
> Ian



HA........ I'll be there for the rest of the week.


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## Haywire Haywood (May 28, 2009)

Found a 19.5 hp Briggs I/C for $100. He needs to put a new gasket in the base of it and I'll pick it up next week if it runs good.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (May 29, 2009)

The tank is finished at the welding shop and they pressure tested it yesterday. I'll pick it up on Monday. I got the 35gpm filter in the mail today... Yeesh, it's a monster! --Ian


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## Moss Man (May 29, 2009)

That's bigger than the filters on my Tree King pulp loader! Wowsa


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 1, 2009)

Here's the tank with the axles mounted... The shop got the fluid bungs reversed front to back so you see the square patch on the tank where he had to cut them off and remount them in the proper location. 

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 1, 2009)

*throw a good coat of paint on it..*

And bolt the beam to her..
Has he got the crankcase gasket in the engine yet?
Hurry man hurry..
Winter is just around the corner.....
oh and keep the pics a coming.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 1, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> Hurry man hurry..
> Winter is just around the corner.....



You wouldn't be makin' fun of a fellow with a little enthusiasm would ya? LOL

Next year's wood is already split... as well as most of the following the year too. I need to find some wood and get to cutting.. the goal is to be 3 years ahead.

Ian


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## dustytools (Jun 1, 2009)

Looks good so far Ian.


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## Steve NW WI (Jun 1, 2009)

Looks good so far, Ian. Nice job on the scrounging by the way!


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## Henry G. (Jun 2, 2009)

I like where this is heading: a cool project with someone who knows how to weld, innovate and scrounge parts, I think this thing is going to rock.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 2, 2009)

Henry G. said:


> with someone who knows how to weld



Correction... I know how to hire the welding done... LOL

The bottleneck is going to be the valve I'm sure. Looking down into the valve openings while you pull the lever doesn't inspire much confidence in it's ability to flow a lot of fluid. Problem is, I've been looking at valves and the ones designed for log splitters appear to be very similar. As someone said on my other thread, even the ones with 3/4" work ports are the same internally as the ones with 1/2" ports. It will only affect the 1st stage though. As soon as the pump kicks down to low flow/high pressure, it'll only need to flow 9.3gpm, so then it won't be an issue.

I did the math yesterday and if the fellow comes through with the engine, I'll have enough hp to push 28gpm to just over 1000psi. The unload valve is adjustable from 400 to 900 with the stock setting being 650 so I took off the jam nut/cover and gave it a few cranks in. Not maxed out, but maybe half way to the stop.

Ian


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## AIM (Jun 2, 2009)

Is your valve an auto return? I'm gonna start my splitter here in the next month or so and I really want an auto return but I'm not sure what to buy or how that works. 
I've got everything for my splitter collected minus pump and valve.


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## triptester (Jun 2, 2009)

Here is a link to Prince Autocycle valve. Good info under autocycle manual.

Model RD 5200

http://www.princehyd.com/Default.aspx?tabid=46


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 2, 2009)

AIM said:


> Is your valve an auto return?



Auto? There's a detent on the return so you can push the lever to retract and walk away to get the next round. It clicks back to neutral when fully retracted. Is that what you mean?

Ian


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## TonyK (Jun 2, 2009)

I have used this group to source parts for my Unimog and other bits and parts. https://www.surpluscenter.com


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 5, 2009)

Well my engine fell through. 

Went to get the 19.5hp engine today, the one he said "ran like a top". Got there, hooked the jumper cables to it and found that it had a frozen starter. It drew lots of current but wouldn't engage or turn the engine over. The 21hp he showed me also had starter problems... wouldn't turn the engine over even though you could turn the flywheel by hand until it got to the compression stroke. They've set outside in the rain too long apparently. He's supposed to be repairing it but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm hoping that I come across a 21-25hp engine now. I have the idea of upgrading the engine on my mower which I have always thought of as underpowered and using the 17hp Kawasaki that's on it now for the splitter.

Still driving ahead with getting the chassis put together though. I'll have the tongue on and it standing on wheels this weekend. Might even have the beam mounted if everything goes well. I'll post pics as it comes together.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 5, 2009)

*Bummer about the engines*

But you can have everything ready for it to mount up....


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 6, 2009)

It's cramped in the barn so I can't get a good pic yet.. the beam is just sitting up there for the glamor shot. The tires ended up being 16" instead of 12 like I thought and the suspension added a couple inches I didn't think of, so the beam height is 36" instead of the 32 that I intended. A tad high, but I can always go to smaller tires to lower it some if needed.


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## ericjeeper (Jun 6, 2009)

*Might as well be...*

Fabricating up some sort of table for out the front..No every piece needs to fall to the ground.. And it is 36 inches to lift it back up to the beam..


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## Slick (Jun 6, 2009)

Now's the time to lower it if you want, that big square tube riser between the tank and torsions has to be what, 4".....cut that out now if you want it lower...it's just metal, it can be cut and welded


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## England14 (Jun 6, 2009)

I agree now is the time to lower it. If it is to low it is easy to put it on blocks, but if it is to high that is harder to fix afterwords. Looks like you could just weld the axles on the tank without the riser blocks.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 6, 2009)

The axle risers are 6" tube but the axles are bolt on. I want to leave them that way so they're easy to change if need be. We thought about cutting a 3" section out of them so they're 6x3 instead of 6x6. That would shorten it and leave the bolt on capability.

Eric, the table is next on the agenda.. we ran out of gas for the mig.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 6, 2009)

*always, I say always*



Haywire Haywood said:


> The axle risers are 6" tube but the axles are bolt on. I want to leave them that way so they're easy to change if need be. We thought about cutting a 3" section out of them so they're 6x3 instead of 6x6. That would shorten it and leave the bolt on capability.
> 
> Eric, the table is next on the agenda.. we ran out of gas for the mig.
> 
> Ian



Keep a spool of flux core wire on hand.. That way you can at least keep on working to finish a product.
NOTE to use flux core you need to reverse the polarity of the leads.. easily done under the side cover..Then switch back when you go to solid core and gas.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm cutting the 6" tube down to 6x2 C-channel. That will get me back down to 32" and still let me bolt the axles on. --Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

*Ian I think you remedied this well.*

Now you are going to need a jackstand. I would use an implement jack. One that mounts with a circular pivot. I would place it directly under your vertical support that goes from the tongue up to the beam.Not one with a wheel ,but one with a fairly good sized plate under it.. To keep from driving it down into the ground when dropping large chunks onto the beam..
I am glad to see you are putting this thing to good use.. Sure looks better in your garage than it does leaning in my barn. LOL


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 7, 2009)

Like this? I bought this 6 months ago for my firewood trailer to replace the tongue jack it came with because it doesn't swivel up and out of the way. I drug it off in a steep parking lot one day when I had a big load of dirt in it. As you can see, it never got installed. 

For the splitter, I was going to do what they do for a leg on the box store splitters, just a piece of C channel that bolts up to the tongue that you just drop down to make a leg. --Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

*Mine has a drop down*

total pain in the caboose.. trying to get the pin lined up.. You have to lift it above the final work height.. How much was the jack? 25-30 bucks?
It will give you the chance to always have a level working platform,no matter the terrain.. just my .02


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## BackYardBuilt (Jun 8, 2009)

I like it. :greenchainsaw:


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 8, 2009)

AIM said:


> Is your valve an auto return? I'm gonna start my splitter here in the next month or so and I really want an auto return but I'm not sure what to buy or how that works.
> I've got everything for my splitter collected minus pump and valve.





triptester said:


> Here is a link to Prince Autocycle valve. Good info under autocycle manual.
> 
> Model RD 5200
> 
> http://www.princehyd.com/Default.aspx?tabid=46



For those that are interested, this is the Prince part number for the autocycle valve. RD523MMEE5A1A1

Seems kinda dangerous to me, but you pull the handle once and it fully extends and retracts automatically. Wouldn't work so well with stuff that you only need a 1/4 cycle to pop, but if your whole stack is stringy stuff that you have to split down to the last fiber, it might save some time. 

Put your wood in... pull the lever, go get the next piece. Suggested retail price $419 Edit... called Dalton Hydraulics, actual price $287.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 9, 2009)

Beam mounted, tongue jack mounted, table fabbed up but not mounted. Ready for an acetone wipedown and some primer.


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## England14 (Jun 9, 2009)

Looking good! It always makes me feel good when things start to come together.


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## super3 (Jun 9, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> For those that are interested, this is the Prince part number for the autocycle valve. RD523MMEE5A1A1
> 
> Seems kinda dangerous to me, but you pull the handle once and it fully extends and retracts automatically. Wouldn't work so well with stuff that you only need a 1/4 cycle to pop, but if your whole stack is stringy stuff that you have to split down to the last fiber, it might save some time.
> 
> ...



Can the auto cycle be canceled by just bumping the lever for the short splits?


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 10, 2009)

Probably, but I don't know. Give Mike Bocian a call at 712-252-6265. He's the Prince Rep I was talking to. It's a 2 spool valve and you pull both levers simultaneously...seems like they would link them or something. I've attached the pdf he sent me.

Ian


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## triptester (Jun 10, 2009)

Page 7 gives a good explanation of the AutoCycle valve operation and yes it can be short stroked with a single handle.

One thing I noticed is that the maximum allowable valve pressure is limited to 2000 psi.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 14, 2009)

Got the last coat of paint on today... Ford Blue is a little brighter than I thought it would be LOL.. Would have painted the beam, but a sandblaster would have been needed. You can see where I started to try to clean it up with a 4.5" grinder. It would have taken hours...

Still no engine. Went to a place on Friday with a bunch of mower carcasses and the largest one they had was a 15hp Kohler Command. Just barely marginal. I know where there's a 20hp side shaft Briggs that was on a sawmill but they want $200 for it and then I'd have to buy the bell housing to mount the pump for another $60. I might still go that route if I don't come up with something soon.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 15, 2009)

*Ian it has came a long way.*

Why no paint on the beam?
Everything looks well thought out. I can only see one thing I would change and that is the two ears sticking out from the end of the beam over the table.. Those might possibly injure a finger , and will make dragging the wood back to the splitter beam a pain.
As for the Power plant the 260$ for a for sure engine, would be better money spent over a 150 $ maybe engine set up.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

I didn't bother with painting the beam because of sheer laziness. It's got a good coat of oil soaked corrosion that would require a lot of cleanup before paint would stick. I figure it needs a sand blaster to strip it properly.

I left those tabs high because I figure I'll eventually have plywood on there instead of that piece of sheet aluminum that's on there now and I didn't want it to stick above beam level. The table is bolted to those tabs too. They're made out of 3/8" diamond plate.

I'm hesitant about the engine because it's a horizontal shaft. In order to get the pump mounted below fluid level, I would have to mount the engine behind the tank and low instead of up high with the pump hanging below it. I see it making it more likely that I would back the engine into something. The advantage of it would be simplicity of the pump mount and the fact that the fuel tank and throttle/choke/kill switch are integral to the engine instead of remote like a mower engine.

On that subject, I am assuming that having the pump run dry until it can lift the fluid to it is a bad thing and would introduce air into the system every time you start it. If not, then it simplifies things somewhat.

Ian


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## kevin j (Jun 15, 2009)

Q thing I noticed is that the maximum allowable valve pressure is limited to 2000 psi. Q



And it appears the spool will come out of detent at 1500 psi. So basically autocycling will max at 1500 psi. I assume one could hold the lever manually and get 2000 psi, but that still seems low to me.

k


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

Kevin, what do you think about the pump being above fluid level? It would probably would be about 12" max if I mounted the horizontal shaft engine high.

I was sitting here thinking that if it's a closed system (cap isn't vented) and both the intake and the return are below fluid level then once it primes the first time, it shouldn't introduce air back into the system and should hold the prime when shut off.

Ian


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## gink595 (Jun 15, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I'm hesitant about the engine because it's a horizontal shaft. In order to get the pump mounted below fluid level, I would have to mount the engine behind the tank and low instead of up high with the pump hanging below it. I see it making it more likely that I would back the engine into something. The advantage of it would be simplicity of the pump mount and the fact that the fuel tank and throttle/choke/kill switch are integral to the engine instead of remote like a mower engine.
> 
> On that subject, I am assuming that having the pump run dry until it can lift the fluid to it is a bad thing and would introduce air into the system every time you start it. If not, then it simplifies things somewhat.
> 
> Ian



Here's my thoughts on the pump below fluid level, it doesn't matter. It won't run dry. There is to much stuff out there that has the pumps way abopve the resivior, my Bobcat for one is like that, in the 1200 hrs. I have on it, it has never had a problem. Plus my splitter's pump is a good 1'-6" above the tank. I think people just are analyzing problems that really don't exist, it sounds like it should be the thing to do but I have yet to have a problem with my setup.


I have 10 cord or so on this splitter. The pump is still kicking!!!


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

Hmm.. if that's the case, then that horizontal engine may be just the ticket...

Ian


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## ray benson (Jun 15, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I was sitting here thinking that if it's a closed system (cap isn't vented) and both the intake and the return are below fluid level then once it primes the first time, it shouldn't introduce air back into the system and should hold the prime when shut off.
> 
> Ian



My pump is a couple inches above the hydraulic tank level. No problems since installation in the late 1980's. I would vent the hydraulic tank. Oil temp goes up and down along with fluid being sucked out and fluid returned to the tank. Kevin or someone else could give reasons for venting.


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## triptester (Jun 15, 2009)

The pump being below fluid level is the best location. When the pump is located above fluid level the possibility of pump damage increases due to lack or loss of prime. Just like riding a bike without a helmet, ride a thousand miles no problem but fall and hit your head once.

As far as a hydraulic system without a vent that depends if the system is specifically designed that way. Most of the time tanks and filters are not made to contain more than a few pounds of pressure. In a closed system pressure can raise quickly with fluid temperature rise.


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## triptester (Jun 15, 2009)

Here is an excellent article on design , purpose ,and function of hydraulic tanks and their components.

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com.../Article/False/84402/TechZone-ReservoirsAcces


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 15, 2009)

Pump above tank may be alright once it is primed but on firsts fire up it runs dry...or at least with only assembly oil. I would at least try to fill the pump before firing the first time.

I really don't understand the hangup on making the tank horizontal and holding the axles. Very simple to put a big verticle tank on, it would be out of the way and remove any doubts about pump location. That is what I did on my homebuilt and if I were to build another it would also be a verticle tank.

Harry K


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## jags (Jun 15, 2009)

Vent that tank. You don't want the possibility of pressure building up in it.

The reality is that once your pump is primed, even if it looses prime (sits), there is still going to be some residual oil in the pump. Typically enough to keep it lubed until it can pull oil back up to it. 

It is true that the best location for a pump is below oil level, but lots of equipment is not built that way. That is not saying that is the best way, just saying that it happens.

BUT>>>> make sure you introduce some fluid to the pump BEFORE you try to fire it up for the first time.

Looking good on the splitter build. Keep those pics coming.

Edit: it figures..Harry beat me to the punch.


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## gink595 (Jun 15, 2009)

turnkey4099 said:


> Pump above tank may be alright once it is primed but on firsts fire up it runs dry...or at least with only assembly oil. I would at least try to fill the pump before firing the first time.
> 
> I really don't understand the hangup on making the tank horizontal and holding the axles. Very simple to put a big verticle tank on, it would be out of the way and remove any doubts about pump location.
> 
> Harry K



I've noticed with mine that when I'm pulling the motor over it primes up, you can feel it in how hard the motor is turning over. It will prime when trying to start. Maybe different with a electric start vs. a hand pulling jobbie.


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## kevin j (Jun 15, 2009)

flooded inlet (fluid level above pump) is always better, but thousands of industrial units are built with the electrtic motor sitting on top of the tank. I would not worry about it. Just keep the inlet large and minimal restriction, adn watch your cold starts with thick oil.


The issues are not so much 'loss of prime' as this is not a centrifiugal pump , not like a water pump. The gear pump and system won't run back. The total loop is a circle and the head pulling on one side is balanced by oil in the return line pulling the other way. It can pull air through a bad shaft seal, but a foot or two of negative head is no big deal. As long as the system is tight, it won't run back. The gear pump is in theory at least all sealed with tight clearances between gears, etc.

The main issue is simply the actual pressure at the pump inlet, to avoid cavitation. That is far more destructive than a bit of air. 

Don't run an unvented tank. Many of the cheap ones have plugs for fill port. Pressure is no big deal, most pump shaft seals can take a few psi of positive pressure. Pulling a negative pressure is more troublesome. Than it can cavitate the inlet. You need some thermal expansion, but mainly the volume of the steel cylinder rod has to be made up in the oil level rising and falling. Get a good spin on filter element on as a breather/vent. Run it several inches up if you can to minimize oil vapors and splash coming out, and minimize drawing in water vapor from rain splashing on a flat metal surface.

First start: You can pull the pump over, or just crank the engine. Gear pump means open center valves, and the pump ouput goes through the manual valve to tank at no load. No worries. Cycle the cylinder to fully purge air WITHOUT putting any load or building pressure. Compressing air in the cylinder doesn't hurt the cylinder. But the big flow surge when the cylinder goes to retract, the compressed air blows oil back to tank 1 to 10 times normal pump flow, maybe more. Can easily blow the return filter or hose.
Nothing fancy required. I'd fill the pump inlet if you can. If not, crank it over for a bit then start it up and stay at low idle.. Purge the air, cycle the cylinder a lot in mid stroke, longer stroke each time. Then light loads, then go to high idle and go to work. 

So I'd get whatever engine works out best for packaging and budget, and mount the pump where necessary. Just not inside the tank..... Those old Williams systems really sucked. And some small industrial power units with vertical electric motors and pumps in tank...... ick for service.

kcj


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks Kevin.

So I need to find a vented cap with 1" NPTF threads... Anyone seen one online somewhere? The ones they have at northern look to be NPTM threads and I have a male pipe nipple welded into the tank. Looks like I'd have to cut that out and weld in something different to use their caps.







I extended the cylinder today and pre-filled it. I filled the spin on filter too. Don't know if that was a good thing or not, but I figured I'd get as much air out of the system as possible. Took about 2 gallons of fluid between the two. Now when I go to fill the tank, I have to remember to allow enough head room for the fluid that will go there when I retract the cylinder. 

Going to have a look at that 20hp horizontal this week.
Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 15, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Thanks Kevin.
> 
> So I need to find a vented cap with 1" NPTF threads... Anyone seen one online somewhere? The ones they have at northern look to be NPTM threads and I have a male pipe nipple welded into the tank. Looks like I'd have to cut that out and weld in something different to use their caps.
> 
> ...


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## kevin j (Jun 15, 2009)

Not sure what you mean by NPTM (male?) NPTF is actually a thread form, (National Pipe Tapered, Fuel) the F doesn't mean female. BUt it is what most people know as ordinary 'pipe thread'.

aeroquip/Eaton has a great booklet on ports and threads of most countries. Unfortunately the website link for the pdf version does not work now. I emailed my distributor last week checking, but no answers yet. 

edit 06/16: this seems to work now

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/fc/e-srov-ts009-e.pdf


Ordinary pipe thread 1 inch coupling or union. The EL90's stacked may look hokey, but would do a good job of controlling splashing up the pipe. 

k


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

LOL... yep, I thought that was national pipe thread, male and female... 

I was bored... (yes, there's underwear in the hamper waiting to be folded) so I drilled the cap with a #40 bit, started low and angled up toward the top, so that any water would not run into the "vent". Probably not enough of a vent... 

Ian


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## England14 (Jun 15, 2009)

Just use a 1" coupler with a 3/4 x 1 bushing and the standard vent cap from northern.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 15, 2009)

Solution... cut the nipple down so that a union will screw on flush with the tank and then screw the male vent cap into the union.

Ian


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## turnkey4099 (Jun 16, 2009)

I must be missing something. There is already a 1" male nipple. If it points up, all that is needed is a vent cap that will be female. Mine is a 1" and looks like a mushroom with screen underneath the 'hood'. If the nipple points 'out', one street 90 and a vent cap does the job. Of course if all you can find is a 3/4" vent cap then you need to add a reducer somewhere.

Harry K


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 16, 2009)

Nope, you're not missing anything... I have a 1" nipple in the tank, but all the vent caps I've seen to date are male instead of female, unless that photo in post 63 shows a cap with a nipple threaded into it. Finding a 1" NPT female vent cap would be ideal.

Ian


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## kevin j (Jun 16, 2009)

I don't understand the 'cut nipple down flush with the tank'
Male NPT nipple sticking out of tank?
Then just add a 1 inch coupling or el90, which is female/female.
Then either a. 1 inch male npt breather, or
b. reducer bushing 1 x 3/4, to female 3/4 NPT
+ 3/4 male npt breather

why cutting anything?
and you want the breather up higher than the tank top, as high as possible.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm probably just not explaining myself very well. I'll post some pics when I do it. I just want a clean install and not something that looks like I patched it together with whatever fittings I found in the bottom of the junk drawer.

Ian


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## kevin j (Jun 16, 2009)

pics would be good. tks, kcj


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## dustytools (Jun 16, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I'm probably just not explaining myself very well. I'll post some pics when I do it. I just want a clean install and not something that looks like I patched it together with whatever fittings I found in the bottom of the junk drawer.
> 
> Ian



Sounds like something that I would do, LOL. I have a bunch of fittings in my junk drawer if you need some.


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## ericjeeper (Jun 17, 2009)

*Ian*

I just came across a pull type splitter with a bad engine.The folks are buying windows for a new house.(One that they won't be heating with wood.) I am going to try to swing some sort of deal with them in order to get hold of the splitter in trade of part of the deal.
I wish I would have came across it sooner. All it needs is a new engine.. Or a large engine and a 28 gpm pump and you would have been splitting wood already. It is the design you prefer.Mounted wedge with flat pusher. Worse thing is.I do not need it, and it will take up more shed space than that old 3pt. LOL


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds like you've got a project... 

The longer it takes me to find an engine for mine, the more likely a log lift will find it's way into the design..  I was doodling at work today when I should have been working.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 17, 2009)

Doesn't this just scream to be adapted to a splitter?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47591


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## smokinj (Jun 17, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Doesn't this just scream to be adapted to a splitter?
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47591



Your on to something there!


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## Blazin (Jun 17, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Doesn't this just scream to be adapted to a splitter?



Other than the 50amp fuse maybe...


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 17, 2009)

Well... there would have to be some adaptation.. I'd like to see it up close to see exactly how it works.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 17, 2009)

*Ian*

The thing is basically a winch using pulleys to lift the platform.. I would stay with fluid power myself.. You are going to have an abundance of that.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 17, 2009)

This would be easy... just need to take the handle off and mount a hydraulic motor on the shaft and put a pair of skidding tongs on the end of the webbing ...


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## ericjeeper (Jun 17, 2009)

*Or you can use teenage boys for the grunt work*

My son and his buddy Josh like to see who can pick up the biggest piece..
Of course Josh can.. Jake weighs 135. Josh weighs 200 and can bench like 350
Honestly to me a loglift us just something else to have to walk/work around.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 17, 2009)

I'd just as soon split it with a coal chisel and a 3lb ball peen hammer as deal with kids.... 

Ian


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## Steve NW WI (Jun 17, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> This would be easy... just need to take the handle off and mount a hydraulic motor on the shaft and put a pair of skidding tongs on the end of the webbing ...




Heck yeah, let's see it! I have thought of a boom on my splitter, with a hyd extendable boom, manual turntable, and hyd lift (no winch, just up/down via a cylinder like a cherry picker.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 18, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> The bottleneck is going to be the valve I'm sure.



Then again, maybe it'll be the front port on the cylinder. That'll have to pass fluid whether I'm extending or retracting. The shape of the hole looks like the tip of a drill, makes me wonder if I could take that end cap off and open it up with a 1/2" drill bit. 



Haywire Haywood said:


> The hoses are going to be 3/4 all around



No use spending money on 3/4" hoses with ports like that. For frame of reference, that is a 1/2" NPT port.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 18, 2009)

*Like I have said before*

There is a fire hose that is 3 inch hose but it is coupled 2 1/2. It will flow considerably more water than a 2 1/2 inch hose.


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## husky362 (Jun 18, 2009)

*drill it out some*

been watching this because ive wanted to build a stout fast splitter ive noticed if you look at the end of the hose its still only around 3/8 opening that is what i consider the bottleneck of some of the 1/2" hose that ive seen with a 28 gpm pump,, i was wandering about 3/4" ports on 5" tierod cyl im thinking a wielded cyl would have bigger port's that dump strait into the cyl but with added cost jumps, after i seen your pic, i do beleve you could bevel into the meat side of the flange to gain flow but the hose may still be a bottleneck,,, your setup will still be stout & fast and built at a very good cost compared to new


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## triptester (Jun 18, 2009)

It may not be worth the trouble trying to open up those ports because most of the fittings don't have opennings that are any bigger.

I think that some equipment may end up with more high fluid temperature problems when a lot of restrictions are combined in a single setup.

http://



The end shown is 1/2" NPT. The fitting on the left is 1/2" NPT x1/2" swivel. The fitting on the right is 1/2" NPT X 1/2" JIC.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 18, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> There is a fire hose that is 3 inch hose but it is coupled 2 1/2. It will flow considerably more water than a 2 1/2 inch hose.



The way it's ported, it'll be a 1/2" hose feeding a 1/4 or 3/8 port at the cylinder. I can't see upping the hose to 2 or 3 times that restriction being worth while. That hose is going to be about 18" long, so it's a short run. Putting a 3/4" hose on that fitting would be the equivalent of your 3 inch hose coupled down to 1" or 1.5". The rear port is twice that size entering the cylinder. It's a full width slot at the bottom of the port and maybe 1/4 or 3/8 tall. It'll be a 3' run too so I may still use 3/4 there.

I'm going out to see if I can take that cap off and maybe open up that port.

It's the beginning of the end gentlemen... I'm gonna nitpick this thing to death before I ever get it running. It's my specialty... LOL

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 18, 2009)

LOL... I woods ported my cylinder. When I got the end cap off and got a good look at it, it wasn't as bad as I thought... it was actually 7/16". I opened it up to 1/2 and took it almost all the way across the bottom of the port. I flushed it good with WD-40 before I reassembled it to get all the shavings out. Should flow a little better now, at least in my mind. I'm going to have to just stay out of the barn till I'm ready to put an engine on. Me tinkering out there will only come to no good and I'll end up replacing something I tinkered too hard on. --Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 19, 2009)

*Now Ian since you have it apart*

Can you re index the flange on the end of the cylinder? And now mount your valve right to the flange using a 3/4 inch nipple'? That will eliminate one hose entirely. You will need to add a support bracket to one of the tie rod bolts to help support the valve while you are fabbing.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 19, 2009)

I already have it back together now.. I had to take it off again and remount it because I had the flange facing the wrong direction the first time... 

Ian


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## BackYardBuilt (Jun 28, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> LOL... I woods ported my cylinder. When I got the end cap off and got a good look at it, it wasn't as bad as I thought... it was actually 7/16". I opened it up to 1/2 and took it almost all the way across the bottom of the port. I flushed it good with WD-40 before I reassembled it to get all the shavings out. Should flow a little better now, at least in my mind. I'm going to have to just stay out of the barn till I'm ready to put an engine on. Me tinkering out there will only come to no good and I'll end up replacing something I tinkered too hard on. --Ian



Ian I am wondering if I should do this with my cylinder. I was taking a gander at my ports and they seem to do the same thing. It is almost like the drill press stopped too short of going all the way though. 

Anybody know why they would build a cylinder like this?


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 28, 2009)

I really don't think taking them that far will make a difference, as long as you have full diameter coming in the side. Going that deep was just me going overboard as usual. Now opening up that port couldn't hurt, if I could have gotten it off the ram fairly easily, I would have done that on my drill press and used the 5/8 bit I have. (again, the overboard thing).

If I ever replace the cylinder, I will take it to a hydraulic shop and have them drill and tap it for 3/4" fittings from the get go unless I can buy one like that. Thus far, I have only seen 1/2" on an over the counter 4-5" cylinder.


Still no engine for my splitter.... got a few people looking.

Ian


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## BackYardBuilt (Jun 28, 2009)

Ian, I am an overboard guy myself. Personally, it is an easy thing to do and if it will reduce heat and increase flow, I would also consider drilling the hole and tapping it to a 3/4 NPT. Only thing is how strong would the surrounding structure around the pressure port be? Would drilling it to 3/4" make it so weak that it would crack or busrt? Ya know what I be talking bout Willis?

Now that I try to gauge it in my head I think maybe 3/4 would be too big and would remove too much metal from mine and ruin it.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 28, 2009)

Yep, that might be an issue depending on the cylinder...

Ian


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## mrowens33 (Jun 29, 2009)

*Should I buy this?*

I am toying with buying a splitter that was being worked on by a guy that seems to have run out of ambition. Is this a good deal? Sorry if this is off topic for this thread. My mechanical ability is ok but my father in law is a machinist and the ultimate jack of all trades.

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/grd/1242191179.html
hello !!! got a log splitter for sale has everthing but hoses, hydraulic fluid and trailer lights.just put it together 5horse briggs you can trailer down the freeway 75 mph not just around the block like the expensive new ones.and just dont have the time to finish want it gone.jay 414-708-1156 


Location: oconomowoc 
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


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## triptester (Jun 29, 2009)

What is painted looks O.K. but can't see much in the pics. Anything can be towed on the interstate but doing it safely is another story.

The valve is for hydraulics but might not be designed for a splitter. The pump is a single stage pump which the 5 HP. engine may not be handle.

Because this is an incomplete project there are many unknowns. Weld quality,compatibility of engine, pump, and valve ,condition of cylinder seals, these are all things that you will have to consider.

If everything works I would estimate $100+ to complete. If parts need to be replaced cost to complete could run up to $600.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 29, 2009)

Find out specifically what pump and valve it is, and what size cylinder he's got mounted. That 5hp engine won't drive a single stage pump well, but if you find out what pump it is, you can calculate how much engine you'll need to run it up to a decent amount of pressure and how many GPM the result will be.

Ian


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## palmrose2 (Jun 29, 2009)

*Hose sizes and friction loss.*

I'm not a hydraulics expert but do have some idea about friction loss as it pertains to water. I imagine that water would have less friction loss in a given size pipe @ a given flow rate. Friction loss is always measured as resistance in psi per foot of pipe, with various fittings given a value of pipe length. Of course in what I do a 10 psi loss can be a big deal.

I know from experience that you can get a huge amount of water through a small hole but that when you try to go much distance you can get into trouble in a hurry. I would think that @ 28gpm I would do whatever it takes to run 3/4 pressure lines and 1" or 1 1/4" suction. 3/4" is twice as large as 1/2". 1" is 4 times as large as 1/2". If nothing else you would running your engine under less load while in neutral and more engine power would available to work instead of heating the oil.

On your design, I can see that the pusher plate is a little on the small side. J.M.O.

My splitter is similar in design to yours. I had trouble with some wood wanting to slide off the push plate. My fix was to sharpen a chisel to a point and dance around the surface with my pneumatic chisel. Took five minutes and did a wonderful job.

A 4" cylinder 2' long holds about 1.3333333 gallons of fluid. 28 gpm would fill that space in 2.857 seconds. Knock off some fluid to account for the ram on the return stroke and you are looking at a potential 5 second cycle time. That's moving.

A 5"x24" cyl. holds about 2 gallons of fluid. Even that would be very fast.


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## jags (Jun 29, 2009)

palmrose2 said:


> A 4" cylinder 2' long holds about 1.3333333 gallons of fluid. 28 gpm would fill that space in 2.857 seconds.



Keep in mind that the pump only creates 28 gpm on the low pressure side. When switching to the high pressure side it is much slower. Just sayin.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 29, 2009)

High pressure side does 9.3 GPM

Ian


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## jags (Jun 29, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> High pressure side does 9.3 GPM
> 
> Ian



That will still be pretty darn respectable.


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## palmrose2 (Jun 29, 2009)

jags said:


> Keep in mind that the pump only creates 28 gpm on the low pressure side. When switching to the high pressure side it is much slower. Just sayin.



I'm running a 4"x24" cyl. with an 11 x 2.5 gpm pump and 8 hp techumse . I adjusted the pump so it stays @ 11 gpm for 80-95 percent of the time. I'm sure that haywires pump will most likely spend most of the time @ the greater flow rating.

I really need to get a pressure gage. Right now my regulator is screwed down tight. Really loads the engine but never stalls.


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## jags (Jun 29, 2009)

palmrose2 said:


> I'm running a 4"x24" cyl. with an 11 x 2.5 gpm pump and 8 hp techumse .



I understand, but note that Haywires high pressure side is over 3 times the volume you are running at. You actually have an oversized motor for the size of the pump. He would need to run around 20+ HP to do the same thing as yours (meaning keep it in the low pressure/high volume side longer.) And even then, at 28 gpm on the high side, a 20 hp engine only has the ability to build about 1000 PSI before it will stall.

A really neat calculator:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic.htm


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## ray benson (Jun 29, 2009)

The 2 stage 28gpm Barnes or Haldex pump - pumps about 7.25 gpm at the second stage.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 29, 2009)

I stand corrected.. I got my calculation wrong somehow.. 7.25 GPM it is. I need a bigger gear in that thing.

Ian


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## palmrose2 (Jun 29, 2009)

jags said:


> I understand, but note that Haywires high pressure side is over 3 times the volume you are running at. You actually have an oversized motor for the size of the pump. He would need to run around 20+ HP to do the same thing as yours (meaning keep it in the low pressure/high volume side longer.) And even then, at 28 gpm on the high side, a 20 hp engine only has the ability to build about 1000 PSI before it will stall.
> 
> A really neat calculator:
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic.htm



I'm going to raise my eyebrows now that I've visited the link. According to the calculator I can only run 400 psi with my 8 hp engine @ 11 gpm. That is doubling the hp requirements of gasoline over electric as recommended on the site. I REALLY want a gage now. I figured my engine was over sized but maybe not.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 29, 2009)

I question that particular calculator as well, at least the "double figure for gas engine" part. 

I've been using the formula HP=GPM x PSI / 1500 to figure out engine size. By that formula, I should be able to run up to 12 GPM at 2250PSI using an 18 hp engine.

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 29, 2009)

*Man I landed a sweet deal today*

Picked up a nice little wood splitter. Has the fixed wedge on wheels. Blown engine. Pump is there just needs a new briggs and it is good to go..
It is a real shame I did not find this one for Ian.. Would have saved him a whole bunch of fabricating.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 30, 2009)

The figuring stuff out and the fabricating were half the fun and it would still be sitting there with no engine regardless... :hmm3grin2orange:

I towed it down to the local NAPA yesterday to get some hoses made and it tows well, even with the weight of the engine and fluid missing to help make the suspension work. Turned out to be as waste of time since they had to order fittings. They didn't have and couldn't order the 45 deg elbows I wanted so it will be straight fittings with a loop of hose. Won't be as neat as I envisioned.

The fellow wanted to put 1/2" hose on it and couldn't understand why I wanted 3/4. He said my pressure would drop with larger hose . He said "I've been doing this a long time...." At one point he said something to the effect, "I may be stupid but I know what I'm talking about." He also let me know that he didn't think that I had a clue what I was doing when he said, "You're paying for it, I'll make it." $11 per foot for 3/4" pressure line not including the fittings. This is going to get expensive.

I also just emailed Haldex to see if I could replace the gear in the high pressure section with a bigger one. 

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Jun 30, 2009)

*Ian I would have told him a few things*

First one being "Customer is always right" It don't make a rats arse what the customer wants.,.Providing they have the coin to cover their wants.
I am still in limbo whether to build up a high speed splitter.. Or just toss a 5horse on it and trade it off..
This one is going to take up even more shed space than the one I swapped you..


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## kevin j (Jun 30, 2009)

your napa guy is bs.
what are the EL45 fittings you need to make the ideal routing you want?
hose ends or adaptors?

kcj


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## jags (Jun 30, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I question that particular calculator as well, at least the "double figure for gas engine" part.



That part is true by the way. A true 5hp electric has the same or better continuous torque as a 10hp gasser. And when it is all said and done, its the torque that does the "work". Be it a log splitter or a pickup truck.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jun 30, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I also just emailed Haldex to see if I could replace the gear in the high pressure section with a bigger one.



The answer to that is no, as I assumed it would be.



kevin j said:


> your napa guy is bs.
> what are the EL45 fittings you need to make the ideal routing you want?
> hose ends or adaptors?
> 
> kcj



I really don't know.. Ideally I wanted 45s at both cylinder and valve. Something to get the hose pointed off in the right direction, but not as restrictive as a hard 90 deg elbow. I assume that it would entail a 45 elbow that would screw into the ports and then swivel straight fittings for the hoses to screw onto. 90s would work if they were the large radius type. I think the Napa guy called them "British" fittings. He said they only came with flange type ends.



jags said:


> That part is true by the way. A true 5hp electric has the same or better continuous torque as a 10hp gasser. And when it is all said and done, its the torque that does the "work". Be it a log splitter or a pickup truck.



So that would mean that the 28gpm pump I have that Haldex says requires 16hp, would actually need a 32hp gas engine? If that is the case, they need to clarify their required HP ratings. 

According to that calc, the high pressure side of my pump pushing 7gpm to 3000psi would require a 28+hp gas engine. The low side pushing 28gpm to the stock unload valve setting of 650psi would require a 25hp engine. 

Northern Tools' 30 ton splitter has a 5.5hp engine and an 11 gallon pump. By that calculator, if you lowered the setting on that pump's unload valve to minimum, 400psi, it would require a 6 hp gas engine just to make the pump shift to the high pressure section. The high pressure section on that pump moves 3gpm. Assuming that the bypass on the control valve is the standard 2250psi, that calc says you would need 9.2 HP to run it up to where the valve would bypass. 

I may be eating a lot of crow when I finally get an engine on my splitter, but I really doubt it. I'll have plenty of season salt and water on hand just in case though... :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 3, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> The fellow wanted to put 1/2" hose on it and couldn't understand why I wanted 3/4. He said my pressure would drop with larger hose.



Gotta come back and give the guy some credit. I just got off the phone with the Tompkins guy. He said 1/2" hose and fittings are generally rated for 3000psi working pressure. 3/4" hose and fittings are generally rated for 2500 psi. The NAPA guy just didn't explain what he meant very well. Not a huge issue since the valves I've seen have the bypass set at 2250 out of the box.

I found some 1/2 to 3/4 straight steel adapters. I'm going to put those on the valve and cylinder and then have 3/4" swivel 90s crimped on the hose ends. That way if I eventually upgrade to a valve or cylinder with 3/4" ports, I can just take the adapters off and screw the hoses on. (yes, upgrade ideas are already forming)

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 13, 2009)

Finally found a donor engine...


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## kevin j (Jul 13, 2009)

ian

cool, electric start. coming along. Should be a smooth running engine with less vibration.

I posted earlier about simple vibration mounts, at Grainger, that go through a 3/4 inch drilled hole, take a 3/8 motor plate mounting bolt, and are very easy to use. $4 each also. Don't have the p/n here.

Hose pressure rating: that sounds better, and correct. I take back all my bad thoughts about your NAPA guy……No worries though, SAE ratings are 4:1 for burst, so still about 10,000 minimum burst (subject to some reduction at tight bend radius). Not that he, or I , are recommending over pressuring, but you should be quite fine. 

The EL45 adaptors, screwed into a port. You are correct, that is typically done. Generally, best to have the odd jump sizes or angles on an adaptor, and the hose with straight swivel ends of same size as hose. Then any replacement hoses use the most commonly stocked end fittings, and the odd stuff is the reusable part that stays on your component. And as you have planned, the odd adaptors with smaller ID go away if you find larger valves or other components.

What port threads do you have? I assumed NPT pipe threads, but ‘British’ usually means British tapered pipe (which is 1/2 thread per inch different than NPT, and also 55 degree thread angle instead of 60 degrees. They don’t interchange well.). There is BSPP parallel thread that uses a seal washer. ‘Flange’ usually means SAE split flange.

Here is a thread guide, see what looks familiar.

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/fc/e-srov-ts009-e.pdf

Sounds like you have it mostly sorted. I would go from NPT, or whatever you have, with angles or elbows as needed, and get to JIC/SAE 37 degree flare (most common world wide) or ORFS oring face seal (harder to find for consumers, but all Cat, John Deere, etc are mostly face seals). ORFS is different than split flange. Split flange used 4 bolts and flanges. ORFS has a swivel nut with hex flats.

Don’t worry about some pressure drops through the elbows, sharp drilled 90 vs a bent stem 90. Bent stem is far better when looking at the fitting only, but in the overall system pressure drop, the restriction through the ID of the -8 adaptor itself will be more significant. Every little bit helps, but simply moving this much oil through the valve and fittings will be the lion’s share of the pressure drop. Go with what routes best and protects the hose and adaptor, so finding the replacement odd part does not become an issue when a log dropped on it !


Electric motor sizing. I often hear several forms:
‘It takes a 5 hp gas motor to replace a 2-1/2 hp electric motor.’
‘2 gasoline hp is equal to 1 electric hp’
‘1 electric hp is twice as strong as 1 gas hp’, and so on.

These statements are technically wrong. HP is simply speed times torque, with some unit corrections thrown in. Hp is hp, regardless of it source: steam engine, gas eng, electric motor, bicycle pedal cranks. 

Yet in actual practice a 2-1/2 hp electric motor CAN replace a 5 hp gas engine. How can this be? 
1. There may be a rated rpm difference (3600 or 1800 rpm) between the motors. An 1800 rpm 1 hp motor will have the same torque as an engine rated 2 hp at 3600 rpm, since hp is torque time speed. Twice speed, twice hp. But the pump would have half the flow at 1800 rpm as at 3600 rpm.

2. Most importantly, what matters is not only rated torque, but ‘torque rise’. That is the ability of the engine/motor to handle a momentary overload. If you plot full load torque vs rpm, a typical gas engine at 5 hp at 3600 rpm may have 10-20% torque rise before it lugs down to say 2500 rpm for its peak torque. If load increases further, the engine can stall (excluding flywheel and rotational momentum) because torque drops off again. 

An electric motor can be loaded 200-250% of it rated load. Its torque generally keeps rising the more its rpm drops off below the synchronous speed (normally 1800 or 3600 rpm). It draws more amps, and pulls way more load for a while until it smokes. So a 2-1/2 hp electric motor can run its rated torque at say 3600 rpm all day for 2.5 hp. However, under momentary overload, it can rise to twice or more of the torque, and pull down to a lower rpm. It draws big amps, and would overheat if run continuously at this load, but on a splitter with intermittent load, it can very easily go a few seconds out of every minute pulling that load. In between with light load, the heat dissipates from the windings and armature. 


Really simplified, but that is the basis for the ‘2 hp gas = 1 hp electric’ rule of thumb (or misunderstanding). Like most rules of thumb, it only applies to the most common situations. It is NOT valid for continuous loads, but could be for things with intermittent loads.


Torque rise is also why certain car or truck or chainsaw engines feel ‘torquey’. May not have more torque than another engine, but with more torque rise, they feel like they lug down and keep going, then pick up speed again.


we might be eating 'crow jerky' together, but I am confident your math and understanding are correct.


kcj


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## dustytools (Jul 13, 2009)

Did you buy the mower or just the engine?


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 13, 2009)

Kevin, you are correct. All the fittings on both the cylinder and the valve are 1/2" pipe thread. I ordered some 1/2 to 3/4 straight adapters and will just have the hose shop use 3/4" 90 deg swivel fittings for hose ends.

I'm going to have to fiddle with the governor on the engine some.. it only runs about 3300 with the screw adjustment maxed out. Thumb it over and it shoots up over 4k, I'd like to see about 3600. If it weren't an older engine without the benefit of full pressure lubrication, I'd be tempted to run it up to 3800. I think the pump is rated for 4k.

Ian


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## palmrose2 (Jul 13, 2009)

*Excellent post Kevin J.*

I've thought for a while that a heavier flywheel to store energy would help a splitter engine. Not that heavy flywheels are available for small air cooled engines. Aftermarket heavy flywheels are available for 4 cyl. jeeps and they work great for crawling around slowly while not stalling or slipping the clutch.

I'm in the brainstorming stage of building a splitter powered by a 10 hp engine that happens to have a couple of pulleys on the crankshaft. A flywheel (energy storage device) somewhere in the drive line may just free up some possibilities as per pump selection.


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## palmrose2 (Jul 13, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Finally found a donor engine...



That engine may finally be taxed. Probably came with a 40"-44" mower deck and was greatly over powered. My old 1969 Simplicity sports a 12 hp Briggs with a 48" deck and cuts grass just fine. Most likely That POS lawn tractor has 1/4 of the life that a good strong Briggs has. Give er heck.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 14, 2009)

palmrose2 said:


> That engine may finally be taxed. Probably came with a 40"-44" mower deck and was greatly over powered. My old 1969 Simplicity sports a 12 hp Briggs with a 48" deck and cuts grass just fine. Most likely That POS lawn tractor has 1/4 of the life that a good strong Briggs has. Give er heck.



My JD has a 48" deck and a 17hp Kawasaki. Unless the blades are razor, it doesn't like cutting 6" of grass. It leaves stripes between the blades unless I slow down considerably, especially if I'm turning a tight corner. I'm always fantasizing about 5 more hp and a bigger pulley for more blade speed. I can't imagine having just 12hp on that mower.

Ian


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## jags (Jul 14, 2009)

Ian, I run a 1976 Allis Chalmers Hydro with a 48" deck that is being pulled along with a 12HP Kohler. Trust me when I say "that sucker can chug through some grass".

I think the main difference is: back in the day, the decks were built taller and the blades did not spin as fast as they do on todays tractors (requiring less HP). It may not give quite as good "finish" cut, but in my yard, that ain't no big deal, its very acceptable for a farm.

(Not too mention that I would really like to see a dyno test comparing a 12HP cast iron Kohler to some of the new engines. I'll bet the torque is closer than most think.)


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## palmrose2 (Jul 14, 2009)

jags said:


> Ian, I run a 1976 Allis Chalmers Hydro with a 48" deck that is being pulled along with a 12HP Kohler. Trust me when I say "that sucker can chug through some grass".
> 
> )



Allis Chalmers = Simplicity. Look it up. John Deere never made a tractor that could compare with a Simplicity Sovereign or it's equivalent Allis, Agco, etc. 

I really don't want to hijack this great thread but to people that know, Simplicity can't be beat any green machine. 

http://simpletractors.com/


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## jags (Jul 14, 2009)

palmrose2 said:


> Allis Chalmers = Simplicity. Look it up.



No need, being the owner of a B1 a B10 a 712H and a 916H, I am familiar with the AC/Simplicity relationship. (and thats a good thing)

Now back to our regularly scheduled "My splitter build"


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## ericjeeper (Jul 14, 2009)

*It is the "Pitch'*

On the modern mowers that lift and blow the grass out.. That is what eats the horsepower. Just listen to them bog, by simply engaging the deck..


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## wkpoor (Jul 14, 2009)

> On the modern mowers that lift and blow the grass out.. That is what eats the horsepower. Just listen to them bog, by simply engaging the deck..


They bogg because of the lean carb setting. Simply pull the choke out a little or just before it starts to run rough and then engage the deck. You'll find they spin up without hesitation. Then put choke off.

Man HW, I haven't followed this thread and now I'll have to read for a month to catch up.


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## wkpoor (Jul 14, 2009)

> My JD has a 48" deck and a 17hp Kawasaki. Unless the blades are razor, it doesn't like cutting 6" of grass. It leaves stripes between the blades unless I slow down considerably, especially if I'm turning a tight corner. I'm always fantasizing about 5 more hp and a bigger pulley for more blade speed. I can't imagine having just 12hp on that mower


Somethings wrong HW. I've turning 72" w/24HP with power to spare even in deep grass and almost never have a windrow problem. Mine is a LandPride same as the Hustler Z.


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## wkpoor (Jul 14, 2009)

HW, when you get this thing done I've got the perfect proving ground hehehehehehe. Just bring it over to the next GTG about a day early and I'll let you test it out all you want. I've got logs stacked out the wazoooo right now.:greenchainsaw:


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 15, 2009)

Bill, I like you and all but I'm not getting anywhere near your wazoooo. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 27, 2009)

Bought hoses and fittings today.. WOW  Sticker Shock big time. 3/4" hose is some pricey stuff.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 28, 2009)

Well... it's almost ready for a test run. The only thing holding me back is one adapter that I forgot to buy at the hose shop.

The engine and pump are mounted, the hoses (-1) are connected and the hydraulic tank is filled.

The engine controls aren't mounted in the right place yet, the battery box isn't mounted and I have to wire the switch panel. All that will probably be done before I can get the adapter. The hydraulic shop is in the opposite direction from my work, so I won't be able to go get the adapter until next Monday. 

The exhaust is the stock can that came on the engine, but I bought a 12" long x 3" diameter round muffler that we're going to put on it. That'll come along as we get time to drive the 60 miles down to where the free-to-use pipe bending equipment is.

This thing better work... the hoses pushed the grand total to over $1000 cash out of pocket, not including the value of the trading material for the base splitter that it's built around.

It's getting closer, be it exhilaration or let down. I'll find out next Monday.

Ian


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## England14 (Jul 28, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Bought hoses and fittings today.. WOW  Sticker Shock big time. 3/4" hose is some pricey stuff.
> 
> Ian



Betcha 1/2 inch hose would have worked same as the 3/4! But we'll never know for sure, will we? :monkey:


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 28, 2009)

We can know if you're interested... I'll send you hose lengths and fitting type and you can send me a set... LOL I'll even send them back after the test. 

Ian


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## wkpoor (Jul 28, 2009)

I had everybit of 250.00 in hoses, QD's, and fittings in my project. So I know that is one area to easily overlook on a splitter project.


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## Haywire Haywood (Jul 29, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> I had every bit of 250.00 in hoses, QD's, and fittings in my project. So I know that is one area to easily overlook on a splitter project.



Mine set me back $365. That price included the lovejoy. 

Ian


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## wkpoor (Jul 29, 2009)

Easy to see why commercial splitters mount the valve on the cylinder and integrate the components as much as possible. TW and other top grade units seem expensive for sure until you build one and see what some of the costs are. If I remember right just one hyd 3/4 90% fitting was about 10 bucks. I had to buy a swivel for the return so the hose wouldn't kink on the 3pt unit. Little things like start to add up. A 1" QD AND A 3/4" QD will set you back too as I needed those to be able easily remove the pump from the PTO. Much easier that way then wrestling it with hoses attached. And on and on and on.


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## blsnelling (Jul 31, 2009)

Hey Ian. Nice looking splitter you've got coming together here. Every now and then I venture out of the chainsaw forum and found this thread a few days ago. I'm anxious to see how it does. Nice work!


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 1, 2009)

The hose shop was open half a day today so I went and got the last adapter. I ran into a little problem hooking the hose up. Can anyone guess what the problem might be? Back to the hose shop on Monday... --Ian


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## triptester (Aug 1, 2009)

Quality control


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## Rookie1 (Aug 1, 2009)

That figures. I make my own hoses at work and have never seen anything like that. Id never look in there to make sure the threads were even there. Unreal


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## BackYardBuilt (Aug 1, 2009)

That sucks Ian. Wonder if it was made in China or Taiwan??

Mine is almost ready to split. I just need Hydro fluid. I'm waiting for work to get rid of some of the aircraft MIL-5606 fluid. That stuff is AWESOME! Even in cold weather the stuff stays almost the same viscosity that it would be at 70 degrees. Makes for easy starting and quick warm up.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 1, 2009)

Just got back in. Got the engine controls mounted and the kill and start switches wired. Still need the correct terminal lug to get the battery charge wire hooked up and some wire clamps to neaten up the wire run and keep them from chaffing.

I started it and it seems to want a little choke to run smoothly. The engine sat on it's side for awhile and the aft cylinder had some (a lot of) oil in it. Smoked me out pretty good for 5 minutes and fouled out the plug. Wired brushed the plug and back in business. 

Killed me that I couldn't pull that valve lever. 

Ian


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## BackYardBuilt (Aug 1, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Just got back in. Got the engine controls mounted and the kill and start switches wired. Still need the correct terminal lug to get the battery charge wire hooked up and some wire clamps to neaten up the wire run and keep them from chaffing.
> 
> I started it and it seems to want a little choke to run smoothly. The engine sat on it's side for awhile and the aft cylinder had some (a lot of) oil in it. Smoked me out pretty good for 5 minutes and fouled out the plug. Wired brushed the plug and back in business.
> 
> ...



Should have just held the hose away from you and cracked the valve open real quick. Seeing the fluid shoot out would have done it for me! 

***EDIT*** 

Ok so I just re read what I typed and I bet someone is gonna turn that into a sexual thing!


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## England14 (Aug 1, 2009)

BackYardBuilt said:


> ***EDIT***
> 
> Ok so I just re read what I typed and I bet someone is gonna turn that into a sexual thing!



I think you just did.


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## BackYardBuilt (Aug 1, 2009)

England14 said:


> I think you just did.



Better that I beat everyone to the punch I guess.uttahere:


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 1, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I ran into a little problem hooking the hose up. Can anyone guess what the problem might be?--Ian



Looks like lackathreadacitis....bad case of it. In my case it usually happens from operator error trying to hook hoses in a confined area.


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## greyhound (Aug 3, 2009)

Here's my homemade splitter, works well on rings upto 20inch. I run it offmy Cat mini digger and it produces 17+ton.
We have small fires and stoves this side of the pond so a log between 6 to 10 inch is all we need.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l9W_TBoVo


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## Rookie1 (Aug 3, 2009)

greyhound said:


> Here's my homemade splitter, works well on rings upto 20inch. I run it offmy Cat mini digger and it produces 17+ton.
> We have small fires and stoves this side of the pond so a log between 6 to 10 inch is all we need.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l9W_TBoVo



Thats very cool . You should start your own thread and put up some pics and show it off. That thing is cool. Would like to see more of it.


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## greyhound (Aug 3, 2009)

thanks rookie, i might do that.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, it's up and running. The engine needs a tuneup in a bad way. The return detent on the valve isn't working, won't release. This might be the excuse I need to put the high flow valve on it.

Cycle time out and back is about 8.5 seconds on my stopwatch. I put a piece of wood in it sideways to get the pressure up to look for leaks and it cut it half in two across the grain. I'd hate to get my hand caught in there.

Ian


Edit... did the calculation and it appears that I'm getting about 14-15gpm unloaded. Not great.


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## Rookie1 (Aug 3, 2009)

Good to hear Haywood. Cant wait to see pics of the finished product.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> This might be the excuse I need to put the high flow valve on it.



Valve ordered... 

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Interesting finding... I'm surprised that I haven't done this before considering how I've dwelled on GPM... the spec for the 28 gallon pump I have says the displacement for the low pressure section is 1.395 cubic inches per revolution. They claim 28gpm at 3600 rpm, but when I do the calculation, I am only coming up with 21.7 gallons....

What gives? Is this the typical manufacturer puffing the specs or am I missing something?

Ian


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## ray benson (Aug 3, 2009)

Try adding the low and the high, as they both work together till the low is bypassed.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Ah.... that explains it..

thanks,
Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 3, 2009)

HayDude, you got a 4.5 or a 5 incher on that there splitter machine. Either way I woulda figure the extra GPMers would have you right about where I'm at 6 secs full cycle. I'll measure my speed again this week. Even though that is good time and with the bigger cyl it will be unstoppable as you already saw. BTW what Prex are you runnin? Also HW for leak checks just runner out to the end and hold the valve open. Thats a good way to see the max operating prex too. I wouldn't just hold it there but just momentary to see prex and leak check. Thats alot of bypass under pressure for any valve to handle. Mine squeels somein fierce when I do that.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

4 inch... should be a lot faster than 9 seconds... the restrictions are either the valve itself or the 1/2" fittings on the valve and cylinder. Since the valve detent isn't working as it should, that gets replaced first. I could probably see if I could fix the detent on the old valve but what fun would that be? 

Don't know how much pressure I'm running, no gauge in the system.

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 3, 2009)

> 4 inch... should be a lot faster than 9 seconds


I didn't splain myself very well there. I have a 21GPM pump vs your 28GPM so even though you have a bigger cyl I would have thougth you to be as fast or faster with the added flow. It may come to be any restiction in plumbing or fittings will limit flow to a particular amount. I might have a similar issue and don't know it cause for the most part I run mine at part throttle and its plenty fast enough. In well behaved wood I only use about 6" worth of travel so we are just a sec or 2 or actual movement. If they are breakin nicely I can really pump em out.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Ah... IF I had a 4.5 or 5 cylinder.... mud's starting to settle a bit now.

I played with the carb settings and got it running a little better. It's maiden voyage today was some silver maple, 20ish in diameter. Easy as that stuff split, it worked me to death even at it's present reduced speed. Like you said, 6" of travel and it falls apart. I'm hoping the new valve gets me to 20 or 22 gpm. 

I'm looking forward to getting the new exhaust made. Should muffle the engine nicely. It's a tad loud.

My wife predicted an emergency room visit could be expected fairly soon. Gotta love her optimism 

Ian


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## Alan Smith (Aug 3, 2009)

*emergency room*

My wife predicted an My wife predicted an emergency room visit could be expected fairly soon. could be expected fairly soon. why she say that?


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

My previous history with sharp or dangerous equipment probably... tablesaws for example. --Ian


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## kevin j (Aug 3, 2009)

ian, 
You should have 28 gpm if that is what you calculate for that pump and rpm, regardless of valve or hose size.

Fixed displacement pumps are, well, fixed displacement, and put out a constant flow if the rpm holds.

Small section plus large section is total output before the unloading pressure is reached. (21 + 7? = 28 output)
Small section is output after unloading the large section to inlet ( 7? output)

Valves and hoses don't change the speed, they only add pressure drop to the circuit. It still moves 28 gpm, just takes more energy to push it through small conductors. 

Of course, if the relief valve seting is reached, or the unloading set point is reached, then unloading happens across a small range of pressure, maybe 100 psi say from 800 to 900 psi range if you are set there. Flow could drop off there, but I doubt you have several hundred psi drop through the valve. Hope not anyway. What is the pump or valve inlet pressure reading at high idle with valve in neutral?

kcj


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 3, 2009)

Not a clue.. no pressure gauge in the system anywhere. 

The engine runs at 3400 which should put that pump at just


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## wkpoor (Aug 3, 2009)

Ian, One basic thing that could account for a lower cycle time is the most obvious. What is the stroke? hehehehe mine is 26" I wish loloololll.


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 4, 2009)

Excellent thread!!! You've got me wanting to go out and build a splitter, and I've already got one. 



kevin j said:


> ian,
> You should have 28 gpm if that is what you calculate for that pump and rpm, regardless of valve or hose size.
> 
> Fixed displacement pumps are, well, fixed displacement, and put out a constant flow if the rpm holds.
> ...



:agree2:

If you've got the RPM, you should have the flow. 

Best thing you can do is get a pressure gauge on the pump outlet/valve inlet, and see what's happening at high idle. 28gpm is a lot of flow (.467 gallons per second) so I'm sure that there is some pressure buildup in neutral (and forward/reverse for that matter) especially when the fluid is cold. But that pump is going to move it at just about 28gpm no matter what the pressure (until you reach the 2nd stage shift point) as long as you've got the horsepower to do it. What will manifest itself with that high flow rate, is heat. I'll bet that even with your large reservoir, your hyd fluid gets warm pretty quickly, especially with the old spool valve.

Just thinking out of the box here... Is there ANY chance that the data plate on your pump is incorrect? Could your pump be a parts donor pump that a part got robbed off of (Stage 1, perhaps) and then it got re-assembled with another Stage 1 from a different GPM rated pump? Only way to tell would be to take it apart and measure the gears inside and then compare them to the specs for what's on the data plate. Like I said, just thinking outside the box here... I've never had a 2 stage pump apart, so I don't know if that's even possible... but since you bought it on eBay,... well, you know :monkey:



Haywire Haywood said:


> Easy as that stuff split, it worked me to death even at it's present reduced speed. Like you said, 6" of travel and it falls apart. I'm hoping the new valve gets me to 20 or 22 gpm.



Even if you only had 11gpm, after a while, it's gonna work you to death if you're working by yourself :greenchainsaw:  :lifter:

My 11gpm/4"x24" (15 sec cycle time) splitter waits on me a heckuva lot more than I wait on it... and I run it normally at about 2/3 throttle. The problem is keeping the machine fed, bringing the next log to it. If you've got a helper to bring logs from the pile over to you, you can keep the machine busy a lot better.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 4, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Not a clue.. no pressure gauge in the system anywhere.
> 
> The engine runs at 3400 which should put that pump at just



Interesting... most of my post is gone.

anyway... continuing... 

The engine runs at 3400 instead of 3600 so that should lower the output to just over 26gpm. I recalculated my flow using 1.3 gallons as cylinder volume and it gave me just over 17 gpm. I was using 1 gallon even (from memory) when I got the 14 number. 

Bill, the stroke is 24".

The return line from the hose to the tank moves a lot, almost pulses all the time. If the valve backup is causing the pump to constantly shift from high to low and back, that could account for the low gpm and couldn't be good for the pump. The cylinder seems to move smoothly though.

XLR, I got that pump off ebay... anything is possible, but supposedly it was a Northern Tools return. Apparently they don't return stuff to stock, they sell it in lots or something.

Ian


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## kevin j (Aug 4, 2009)

no gauge points?
you have a first class build going and no way to set it up to optimum, or to diagnose it.
slap that boy  
Drill and tap some fittings, or add tees. Minimum of one on P line between pump and valve (there may be a gauge port on the manual spool valve already). I would also add one on the return line before the filter.

does it sound like the pump is unloading and loading the large stage? That would be a very large pressure drop in neutral. Or is your unloading pressure set very low so it loads and unloads?

kcj


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## wkpoor (Aug 4, 2009)

I just thought about the displacement difference. You are turning in the ballpark of 3500rpm and I am in the ballpark 350rpm. That Prince PTO pump must have some serious volume.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 4, 2009)

kevin j said:


> no gauge points?
> you have a first class build going and no way to set it up to optimum, or to diagnose it.
> slap that boy
> Drill and tap some fittings, or add tees. Minimum of one on P line between pump and valve (there may be a gauge port on the manual spool valve already). I would also add one on the return line before the filter.
> ...



LOL... slap me.. I can take it. 

I can't hear anything unusual from the pump. Then again, this is the first time I've fiddled with hydraulics so I might not recognize it if I heard it. I gave the unload valve a couple twists clockwise (inwards) from the stock position, but it's not maxed out. As far as the gauge ports.. that would require me purchasing a gauge (or two) wouldn't it... how much do they run?

Ian

Edit: just got back from the barn. Bottoming the unload valve adjustment and holding the lever against the stop kills the engine right now, no hesitation. Back the adjustment off 1/2 turn and it loads the engine fairly well but doesn't threaten to kill it.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 4, 2009)

Man UPS is quick.. I'll have the new valve tomorrow. 

I also backed the engine off to 3200rpms, which should make 25 gpm, the rated max flow for the new valve.

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 4, 2009)

Ian, Gauges are cheap. Buy one that will register in the middle/top third of the dial. For you a 0-5000 should be OK. I have a liguid filled one so the reading is steadier. They don't react as fast to spikes but keep the reading steady.


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 4, 2009)

Ian,

If all is working well, your pump should be pretty much silent... that is, you shouldn't hear at all it over the sound of the engine. If you hear anything more than a light whine, and in my experience, even if you hear a light whine with no load on the pump in these summer temps, it would be cause for concern. So if you don't hear anything, you're good. In the winter, when the oil is cold and thick, you might hear some noise from the pump until the oil warms a bit, but normally you shouldn't in the summer. When you hit the end of the cylinder stroke, or stall it out, you will hear the oil bypassing in the valve, but again, you shouldn't hear much of anything at all from the pump... if you hear any loud squeal or loud whine from the pump, that may indicate that the pump is being starved of fluid and cavitating. 

My Dad's old SpeeCo splitter had that problem when it was new back in the mid 70's... it turned out to be that the bottom of the hole drilled for the pump inlet line where they welded the fitting on (looked more like they pushed the drillbit through the steel) didn't get removed from the tank... and eventually it got sucked into the inlet line, where it restricted flow to the pump. All seemed well until you moved the spool valve, then when the pump had to make any pressure, it would squeal loudly, but not load the engine, because it was being starved for fluid. In neutral, it was silent. The cylinder also moved at a snail's pace as well.

As for adding the pressure gauges, you would need the proper Tee fittings, and the gauges.

The gauge should probably run somewhere in the neighborhood of $20... I found this one on Surplus Center: System Pressure Gauge for $16.95. Here's one that would work well on your outlet side between the valve and the filter block to monitor the filter: Filter Monitor Gauge


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 5, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmm... New valve installed. Return detent now works. 

NO CHANGE IN CYCLE SPEED.

I timed it several times and it always comes out to just about 4.75 seconds one way. I am a tad perplexed. This is just over 16 gpm. I'm beginning to think that my pump is not what it appears to be.

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 5, 2009)

Pictures dude pictures. I want to see it.


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## England14 (Aug 5, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Hmmmmmmmm... New valve installed. Return detent now works.
> 
> NO CHANGE IN CYCLE SPEED.
> 
> ...



Maybe you need some 1" hoses. :monkey:


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## wkpoor (Aug 5, 2009)

On a fixed displacement pump the flow has to be there regarless of hose sizes unless the suction side if gulping air along with fluid. Tubing and hose sizes will affect no load pressures is all. How big is the reservior and is the pump below it for good flooded suction?


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 6, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Hmmmmmmmm... New valve installed. Return detent now works.
> 
> NO CHANGE IN CYCLE SPEED.
> 
> ...



:agree2:

I think you might have gotten a cobbled pump... take it apart and measure the gears. Then compare that to the specs for the pump...

That's still pretty respectable cycle time though... that machine will still likely wait on you more than you will wait on it.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 6, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> On a fixed displacement pump the flow has to be there regardless of hose sizes unless the suction side if gulping air along with fluid. Tubing and hose sizes will affect no load pressures is all. How big is the reservoir and is the pump below it for good flooded suction?



Reservoir is 15 gallons. The pump is well below fluid level. 

Your comment about it gobbling air gave me an idea that I'll try this afternoon. I don't have the reservoir completely full (about 11 gallons) and I had the shop weld a perforated baffle plate into it between the return and the intake. If the fluid is not passing through the baffle fast enough, I might have a high fluid level on the return side and a low fluid level on the intake side resulting in the pump getting some air. Air in the line might account for the return line jumping like it does. I'm going to fill it full and try it again. I forgot that I hadn't put those last few gallons in.

Edit... it took more than I thought it would. It took all of my remaining 5 gallon jug. I wanted to crank it, but I have neighbors now and the splitter running at 5:15am might not sit well with them. This means that I have right at 17.5 gallons in the system. Tank and lines hold more than I accounted for.



xlr82v2 said:


> :agree2:
> 
> I think you might have gotten a cobbled pump... take it apart and measure the gears. Then compare that to the specs for the pump...
> 
> That's still pretty respectable cycle time though... that machine will still likely wait on you more than you will wait on it.



I emailed Haldex to see if they offer any pump services and if so how much a repair would be. Before I did that I would take it to the Hydraulics shop to see if they had a flow meter that they could test it with.


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## kevin j (Aug 6, 2009)

If you take the pump apart, any damage should be apparent.
If it is not operating clearly on both sections (28 gpm) , or one section (7 gpm), but at some intermediate state, there could be leakage and worn parts.

If worn, the leakage should vary with load pressure. Yours seems to be constant flow at 16 gpm loaded or not? or has it only been under no load flow?

You have a pretty good flowmeter now: known cylinder moving known distance in known time. It is fairly easy to add load by adding a needle valve to the hose lines to create load and compare times/speeds/flows, but it does require some knowledge and a steel high pressure valve.


As far as having wrong pump or wrong parts, take some measurements across the gears like in the attached file. There is a way of approximately getting the displacement from the the dimensions and geometry. caution, I have had this formula around a long time, and seen referenced in several locations, but have not personally done a pump of known size to verify the formula.

I have a barnes 28 that I could pull and compare numbers with you. would take a week or so.

edit: 11-16 gpm are in one frame and 22-28 are in a larger frame. so parts won't be put in the wrong pump. dimensions are in the haldex site. Basic frame and gear sizes are the same in a frame, the gear set and housing are just longer/thicker.

You could also run the hose into a graduated cylinder or cup and turn it by hand and measure the cubic inches of oil out.


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## husky362 (Aug 6, 2009)

*what size return line*

how much oil is getting out of the valve back to the tank,,,,,,, i ran 3/4 hose on all my splitter with a few 90's at the valves [the 2'&3' hose was some freebie stuff from a hydraulic company i do business with] i made them work, or it would all be strait fittings, when i started testing mine it is slower than i felt it should be, but i feel that the 3/4 fittings in the return line and 3/4 fitting's on the suction line are slowing it down I'm also using a single stage pump with a 1x12x12 and 4 way wedge behind it ,,,it never slows down I'm thinking its pushing around 10gpm @2000 not real fast,,but it will keep you, and a friend busy working keeping it feed


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 6, 2009)

It was sucking air... I ran it this afternoon and gained 2 seconds on the cycle, so I am up to almost 21gpm. The return line stopped jumping too.

You can tell when it unloads to the high pressure side, the tone of the engine changes. I ran it though some crotches this evening to make it unload. 

I can't see me disassembling the pump. I might give it to a shop to test and repair, but I don't feel comfortable doing it.

Pics and a short vid coming soon... my camera only takes 15 second clips so I need a second set of hands.

The table wasn't working out too well, didn't catch the wood. Doesn't matter now anyway. A chunk of wood got caught between the ram and the edge of the table and broke it off the splitter. Bolts went pop.. welds went pop. Need a new design apparently... LOL

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 6, 2009)

HayMan, don't bother with anymore testing or tearing down that pump. Its just fine. Whats the rpm on the tag say for 28gpm. Most likely you are running a little slower. Also do you have a 1" goesinya hose? Sorry if you answered that a hundred times already but you owe me one since I fixed your splitter man! heheheheheheh. And don't forget if you want to test the pump just dead end the cylinder. That will max it out instantly. 

Now when you bringin that monster up for a split off? Is it road worthy or does it need a trailer? Trailer be best anyhow for distance.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 6, 2009)

28gpm @ 3600rpm. The engine is now back running at 3400 so 26 is what it should be making. 

elbows.. one at the pump, one at the intake of the valve, both work ports are 90s and one of the cylinder connections is a 90. Cylinder connections are 1/2" NPT, so they also have 3/4 to 1/2 adapters.

The hoses are all 3/4 except for the vacuum side of the pump... that one is 1 1/4".

I think I'm done fiddling with it except for getting the quieter exhaust hooked up and rigging a table that won't get torn off 

Ian


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## husky362 (Aug 7, 2009)

*funny how metal bends*

I've been playing with a 6 way using up some old 3/8 steel plate faster to grind a angel on to see how it split's, works ok then i get brave and push it and mangeled it in oak knots.. sheared the ear off once so far my welds are holding ive had to add support to the push plate cause ive bent the 1/2" plate playing before it was finished


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 7, 2009)

Ok, here's a few pics and a couple short clips. The wood is no challenging species.. straight grained and easily split.


















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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mDNxRJLESTE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mDNxRJLESTE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## Rookie1 (Aug 7, 2009)

Very nice Haywood. I love it. I like the swivel hitch.the big engine and the color too. Nice job! Looks fast too. I wonder how the fuel mileage will be with that engine. Oh ya,in these parts up north we spell it"on" and "off" but Im OK with your spelling. Did I say nice job already?


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## England14 (Aug 7, 2009)

Is it just me or is the motor running a little slow? Faster RPM would mean more flow if it is running a little slow.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 7, 2009)

It's running 3400. That is with the governor maxed out. The carb could use a rebuild kit and a good cleaning. You have to choke it a little to get it to run as it is.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 7, 2009)

Rookie1 said:


> Oh ya,in these parts up north we spell it"on" and "off" but I'm OK with your spelling.



LOL.. my idea of a joke. I bet you don't spell start "GRRR" up there either. 

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 7, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> It's running 3400. That is with the governor maxed out. The carb could use a rebuild kit and a good cleaning. You have to choke it a little to get it to run as it is.
> 
> Ian


Id pull that plug on the side of the carb Haywood. I believe its 5/8s that should drain the floatbowl. That may be all you need.


Haywire Haywood said:


> LOL.. my idea of a joke. I bet you don't spell start "GRRR" up there either.
> 
> Ian



No we dont but I like it too. My BIL spells F U phuck ewe. So its all good.


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## England14 (Aug 7, 2009)

Lookin good!!!  Now for the log lift and catch table. 

Looks like you have about a 6 second cycle from the video. Don't know about you, but I could not keep up with that.


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 7, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> LOL.. my idea of a joke. I bet you don't spell start "GRRR" up there either.
> 
> Ian



How's this:






Photoshop skills are very few, as you can see!


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## wkpoor (Aug 7, 2009)

Very nice Ian, Gotta love that speed. Nice pile of wood going there too. Hey, thats looks like a decent place to hold a GTG.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 7, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> Very nice Ian, Gotta love that speed. Nice pile of wood going there too. Hey, that looks like a decent place to hold a GTG.



thanks..

The problem with me holding a GTG is no tractor to move whole logs and no good supply of logs. I scrounge everything I get here and there, one tree at a time, and it always comes home in 16-18" pieces.

Ian


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 7, 2009)

I was watching those videos, and I thought 5 O'clock Charlie was coming!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

Seriously, great looking splitter!! Now, that thing is screaming "LOG LIFT"!!!  

Git 'er Done!

How warm is the fluid getting with your high flow rate?


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## SWI Don (Aug 7, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> The table wasn't working out too well, didn't catch the wood. Doesn't matter now anyway. A chunk of wood got caught between the ram and the edge of the table and broke it off the splitter. Bolts went pop.. welds went pop. Need a new design apparently... LOL



That's what happens when I stay away for a while. I could have told you your table's splits were numbered. I had already gained that wisdom first hand. I just got my table reasonably straighted out a couple weeks ago and hopefully will have new mounts welded on later this weekend. The new location will be *lower* to keep it below those wayward knots that like to catch the table.

Otherwise, a good looking splitter. Nice clean design with suspension so you can haul a$$ down the road. 

Don.


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## wkpoor (Aug 8, 2009)

Piss on the log lift. HW has a nice fast saw to quarter up those bigs in less time than it takes to srew with the lift.
BTW Ian I am a scrounger too . I just try to avoid anymore cuttin than I have to away from home.


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 8, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> Piss on the log lift. HW has a nice fast saw to quarter up those bigs in less time than it takes to srew with the lift.
> BTW Ian I am a scrounger too . I just try to avoid anymore cuttin than I have to away from home.




No way man!! Gotta have a log lift! Work smarter, not harder! :greenchainsaw:

Chainsaws are for bucking, not splitting, hahaha!


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## BackYardBuilt (Aug 8, 2009)

Looking bad A$$ haywood


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

My idea is to make the table in kind of an L shape and move it forward on the splitter so that the edge of the table is forward of the knife. That way there's no table edge in the firing line. It's mostly going to be on the off side too, to keep the other half of any big round from hitting the ground on the first split. I can halve it, dice up the near side and then instead of walking around to get the other half, just reach over to the table and get it.

This stuff I'm splitting now is really easy so it ends up separated and dropping off quickly. It never made it to the table the way it was before. The real test will be when I get into some tough stringy wood that requires a full cycle to separate. I may wait till I get some of that to decide how to make the table. The down Hackberry tree that was going to be my tough wood test is now behind a planted tobacco field, so it has to wait till harvest is done.



xlr82v2 said:


> How warm is the fluid getting with your high flow rate?



I haven't paid attention. I'll lay a hand on the tank when I split the rest of the pile this afternoon. If you notice in the pictures, I have the solid cap on the fill neck instead of the vented one I bought. The turbulence in the tank is such that it poured fluid out the vents in the cap on every retract cycle but strangely enough, not on the extend. This is with the fluid level 2" below the top of the tank. I might put a 6" nipple on it to raise the neck a bit and try the vented cap again.

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 8, 2009)

> No way man!! Gotta have a log lift! Work smarter, not harder!
> 
> Chainsaws are for bucking, not splitting, hahaha!


Been doing this for a long time and found out a couple of years ago I can quarter up large pieces with the saw faster than messing with vertical or log lift.
If you got say a 30" log. you lift it up on and split but because of the size it doesn't break all the way. So you roll it down off, man handle it around and back up on to get the other side broke. And it still needs 2 more or more to get it down to handling size and now it doesn't roll. By the time I do all that I could have had it sawed into nice sized pieces ready to split. No thank you, I will just saw it.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

I'd like to have a 12" knife instead of the 8" that's on there just to reach further into the bigger rounds. Not going to happen though, those 12" knives are most of a C note at NT plus getting the shop to weld it on, I expect I'd need someone with a big 220 stick welder to do metal that thick.

Ian


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## palmrose2 (Aug 8, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> Been doing this for a long time and found out a couple of years ago I can quarter up large pieces with the saw faster than messing with vertical or log lift.
> If you got say a 30" log. you lift it up on and split but because of the size it doesn't break all the way. So you roll it down off, man handle it around and back up on to get the other side broke. And it still needs 2 more or more to get it down to handling size and now it doesn't roll. By the time I do all that I could have had it sawed into nice sized pieces ready to split. No thank you, I will just saw it.



If I had your saws or I didn't cut my wood in to 24" lengths, quartering would be much easier.


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## England14 (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I haven't paid attention. I'll lay a hand on the tank when I split the rest of the pile this afternoon. If you notice in the pictures, I have the solid cap on the fill neck instead of the vented one I bought. The turbulence in the tank is such that it poured fluid out the vents in the cap on every retract cycle but strangely enough, not on the extend. This is with the fluid level 2" below the top of the tank. I might put a 6" nipple on it to raise the neck a bit and try the vented cap again.
> 
> Ian



Get a 3/4 x 2 bell and a 2" 12" long nipple with another bell and the vented cap on top of that, then you should be able to run with the tank full which would give you better cooling.


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## dustytools (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I'd like to have a 12" knife instead of the 8" that's on there just to reach further into the bigger rounds. Not going to happen though, those 12" knives are most of a C note at NT plus getting the shop to weld it on, I expect I'd need someone with a big 220 stick welder to do metal that thick.
> 
> Ian



The heat range on my 220V welder will go up plenty high enough to weld that if you choose to do so Ian.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks Terry.. if I decide to do that, it would be a good reason to pay you a visit.

I've been pondering slip on 4-way splitters too.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> those 12" knives are most of a C note at NT



Had another look... they're $40+ S&H. It was the slip on 4-ways that run $80-120.

Ian


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 8, 2009)

wkpoor said:


> Piss on the log lift. HW has a nice fast saw to quarter up those bigs in less time than it takes to srew with the lift.
> BTW Ian I am a scrounger too . I just try to avoid anymore cuttin than I have to away from home.



Bring yer saws, and we'll race. Heck, I don't even have a log lift or a vertical splitter, but I don't have problems breaking em with 50+ tons and an 18" wedge...

Only time I'll noodle is if I'm splitting alone and not feeling like superman. It has it's place, but usually that place is not here.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

*Log lift*

I do have that extra valve now... Hmmm.. 2" Cylinders aren't that pricey. LOL

and the upgrade list grows...

Ian


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## ericjeeper (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I do have that extra valve now... Hmmm.. 2" Cylinders aren't that pricey. LOL
> 
> and the upgrade list grows...
> 
> Ian



Won't be long and you are going to need a one ton dually to pull "The Beast"


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

My lawn mower already won't pull it up the grade in my yard.

Ian


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## dustytools (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> My lawn mower already won't pull it up the grade in my yard.
> 
> Ian



Get ya some fluid in them thar tires.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 8, 2009)

I don't lose traction, It just hasn't got enough kahunas. The hydrostatic tranny slips. It'll pull it around on level ground, just not up a hill.

Ian


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## England14 (Aug 8, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I don't lose traction, It just hasn't got enough kahunas. The hydrostatic tranny slips. It'll pull it around on level ground, just not up a hill.
> 
> Ian



I had one of them once. Wouldn't pull its own weight when it got hot. Come to find out it had the wrong fluid in it. If my memory serves me right I had ATF in it and it needed 30 weight motor oil. Changed the oil a few times and it worked great.


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## wkpoor (Aug 9, 2009)

> Bring yer saws, and we'll race. Heck, I don't even have a log lift or a vertical splitter, but I don't have problems breaking em with 50+ tons and an 18" wedge...


Well now that is a horse of a different color. Never seen an 18" wedge but that would certainly make better work of bigger diameters. My back just can't take wrestling large wood anymore.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 9, 2009)

England14 said:


> I had one of them once. Wouldn't pull its own weight when it got hot. Come to find out it had the wrong fluid in it. If my memory serves me right I had ATF in it and it needed 30 weight motor oil. Changed the oil a few times and it worked great.



This one has the original fluid from the factory in it. It's about 6 yrs old now and right at 100hrs. I asked once if it needed changing and I think they said it shouldn't need changing ever. I'll go look at the book again.

Ian

Edit: from deere site


> The transmission is a sealed component. No maintenance is required on this transmission. If you suspect any transmission problems, please contact your John Deere dealer.


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## wkpoor (Aug 9, 2009)

Sounds like time to upgrade the Deere.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 10, 2009)

Had a couple setbacks this morning. Apparently the last time I ran it, the float bowl jet stuck and filled the crank case with gasoline. I also found one of the nuts that attaches the suspension to the tank on the floor. One bolt completely missing. Guess those lock washers aren't doing the job. I'll be turning the hardware around so I can tighten them up and tack weld the nut to the bolt. No more coming loose.

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 10, 2009)

Did the original setup on the tractor have the fueltank down low and the impulse fuelpump hooked up?


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## jags (Aug 10, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> Had a couple setbacks this morning. Apparently the last time I ran it, the float bowl jet stuck and filled the crank case with gasoline. I also found one of the nuts that attaches the suspension to the tank on the floor. One bolt completely missing. Guess those lock washers aren't doing the job. I'll be turning the hardware around so I can tighten them up and tack weld the nut to the bolt. No more coming loose.
> 
> Ian



Hey Ian, instead of a tack weld on the nut/bolt just give the threads a little whack with a chisel. It will seize the nut on the bolt, but you can still horse the nut loose if you have to.

A note on the purchased splitting wedges. When welding them on, it is pretty important to use low hydrogen rods (which requires reverse polarity on the welder). The wedges are a high tensile strength steel that will get brittle if using a standard stick.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 10, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I'll be turning the hardware around



Now I remember why I had the hardware like I did. No room for the nuts on the other side. Too close to the radius of a corner. I cleaned them one at a time with acetone and used red locktite to put them back together. Maybe as good as a weld... LOL



Rookie1 said:


> Did the original setup on the tractor have the fuel tank down low and the impulse fuel pump hooked up?



No, the tank that came with it was about even with the engine.. when full it was as high as the top of the engine and when empty, maybe 6" below the carburetor. Think I should put a petcock on it?

Jags, thanks for the heads up concerning the polarity of the welder. I knew it had to be low hydrogen rods, but didn't know about switching the welder around.

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 10, 2009)

I thought maybe you mounted tank high for gravity flow. I would just rebuild the carb. That style should have a replacable needle and seat. A properly working carb shouldnt need a petcock. And the money keeps flowing...........


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 10, 2009)

I need to see if I can find a make and model on the carb so I can get the right kit.

You're right, the money does keep flowing it seems as does the hydraulic fluid. I've got some seepage around a couple of the pipe thread fittings. None of the JIC fittings, just the pipe thread. The guy that made my hoses said he hated pipe thread for just that reason.

Ian


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## kevin j (Aug 10, 2009)

couple neighbors with Briggs on MTD had similar deals. one was poor fuel line filter and dirt in the seat. The other had the float level set too high and not sealing off. At least it had a brass float with the adjustable tang. I think the first one had molded plastic float.

I shut them off and run dry before roading it, to keep from bouncing the float, but otherwise should not be required. Good practice to keep from flooding the barn floor, but homeowners don't know enough to turnoff lawn tractors, so they should seal.

edit: meant that since most people would not use shutoffs even if the machine had them, the carb is certainly designed and intended to seal properly without one. I just find them nice to have for long storage.


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## Rookie1 (Aug 10, 2009)

Haywire Haywood said:


> I need to see if I can find a make and model on the carb so I can get the right kit.
> 
> You're right, the money does keep flowing it seems as does the hydraulic fluid. I've got some seepage around a couple of the pipe thread fittings. None of the JIC fittings, just the pipe thread. The guy that made my hoses said he hated pipe thread for just that reason.
> 
> Ian



What kind of thread "stuff" did you use? A retired mainenance man that I knew swore on teflon tape then pipe dope. Said he never had a leak in all his life. I would just use the dope. All teflon tape does is make it smoother to twist together not to seal the threads. The mechanical force of screwing them together seal pipe fittings. In short tighten the $hit out of em.


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 10, 2009)

kevin j said:


> but homeowners don't know enough to turnoff lawn tractors, so they should seal.



Never turned the fuel off to a lawn tractor, real tractor, tiller, generator, anything here. Dang farmers must be luckier than homeowners.

Unless the carb is already in bad shape, you won't have a problem. I believe Ian already said his carb needs work, this is just another symptom. If shutting the fuel off was important, any car built before 85 would have a shutoff valve in the line.

NOTE: I do run small engines dry before storing, just for fuel related issues, but I also just started a tractor that had been sitting for 2 years on the gas in the tank, with no shutoff, so the carb had the same fuel as the tank. I call BS on needing to shut the fuel off.



kevin j said:


> I shut them off and run dry before roading it, to keep from bouncing the float



If you don't want to "bounce the float"...whatever that means, leave the carb full of fuel. The float will be at the top of it's travel, and not bounce. A float sitting at the bottom of a dry carb will be a lot easier to "bounce".


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 11, 2009)

Rookie1 said:


> What kind of thread "stuff" did you use? A retired mainenance man that I knew swore on teflon tape then pipe dope. Said he never had a leak in all his life. I would just use the dope. All teflon tape does is make it smoother to twist together not to seal the threads. The mechanical force of screwing them together seal pipe fittings. In short tighten the $hit out of em.



I used teflon, no pipe dope. I'm just going to let it seep. Since I didn't have the forethought to put a drain in the tank, emptying it involves removing a cylinder hose and starting the engine. Ever try to fill a 5 gallon buck from a hose spurting hydraulic fluid under pressure? LOL. You lose more in 5 seconds than it would seep in a year.

I took the carb off and cleaned it, no markings whatsoever. I wrote the engine model down in case the shop needs it.

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Haywood I believe you should find the engine model number on the sheetmetal. Three long numbers, model,production and serial numbers. I used those to get a kit for the mower I worked on. I used aftermarket. On a positive note,where its seeping it will never rust.


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## fishercat (Aug 11, 2009)

*if it's a Briggs............*



Rookie1 said:


> Haywood I believe you should find the engine model number on the sheetmetal. Three long numbers, model,production and serial numbers. I used those to get a kit for the mower I worked on. I used aftermarket. On a positive note,where its seeping it will never rust.



it should be model,code,serial #s


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## SWI Don (Aug 11, 2009)

If you do decide to redo some of your fittings you can do what I do, tilt the tank to get the fitting in question above the oil level. You may be tilting the whole log splitter in your case but that is what loaders, backhoes, engine hoists, come alongs etc are for. My tank is separate so I just have to unbolt it so it is a little easier for me. 

Don


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 11, 2009)

I got the kit installed.... I think. I hate those carb kits where they give you everything to rebuild 5 different carbs and you have left over parts. I never know if the ones left over are supposed to be in the carb or in the garbage.

Ian

edit.. can't believe it freekin' worked. Runs without the choke now and doesn't spew gas. Had to tweak the float bowl tab a little. Hooked it up the first time and the gas went right through and onto the floor.


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## Rookie1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Good deal on the rebuild Haywood. I know what you mean about the "universal" rebuild kits. Im ready for the next installment. What do you have for us?


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 13, 2009)

The next and semi-final installment to this saga is going to be the exhaust. The old 1-into-1 exhaust is rotted out. We tacked it back together but it broke again, so the exhaust upgrade has been pushed to the front burner. I bought a replacement muffler for a small tractor.. the can is about 3.25" in diameter and 13" long. Now I just have to figure out how to do it. The pipes on the stock mufflers are 3/4" and the inlet to the muffler is 1-5/8". The goal is a 2-into-1 quiet exhaust. 3/4" pipe from each cylinder into a Y of some kind and then into the muffler. Don't know where to get thin wall pipe that small, so I was looking at 3/4" EMT conduit today... The rigid conduit on the same rack is thicker walled so I would think it would last longer.

The muffler is designed for a 172 CI gas engine, so it may flow a bit too much for this engine. I may have to weld a big fender washer into the outlet to provide some back pressure. I don't know. Still figuring it out. --Ian

EDIT: If anyone has any ideas, don't be shy...


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## Rookie1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Why not come up with dual mufflers like whats on it now. Maybe different pies or routing but same style muffs. That way the sixzes should be similar.


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## super3 (Aug 13, 2009)

You can get 3/4 and 1" thin wall tubing at most hardware stores around here in the racks with all the flats and angle iron. Don't know about your area.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks, I'll have another look. Seems like all the thin wall stuff on those racks was brass and on the short side.

The old exhaust is mounted with a flange, but the block is also tapped for 3/4" pipe thread. It sure is tempting just to buy a couple screw in mufflers and hang them on 6" pipe nipples to get them away from the block, but I want the big muffler to quieten it down.

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 14, 2009)

I can dig the quiet factor. Im trying to remember the setup on that craftsman. I think it would be too loud though. I just thought it would be easier. Only other thing I may do is go to muffler shop and see what they have. I knew a guy who used to go to the local muff shop and dig through the dumpster for misbent pipes. He said there was all sorts of sizes. Maybe they could bend it and you could weld it.


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## England14 (Aug 14, 2009)

Put some screw in mufflers on it and get a good set of ear muffs. And then get to work on the log lift.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 14, 2009)

Ok, I relented today and went the semi easy route. I bought 2 of the largest screw on mufflers the hardware store had. They measure 4" in diameter by 3" deep and are rated for up to 16hp single cylinder engines. They are essentially hollow cans, so I am uncrimping them with a torch and screwdriver (ala Lakeside53) and packing them with those stainless steel brillo pads. I got one almost done and ran out of acetylene. I bought 6" pipe nipples just guessing and what do ya know, they're too long. I need 3" nipples instead and one street 45 to angle the forward cylinder to the rear a little. --Ian


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## palmrose2 (Aug 14, 2009)

No pics but I'll tell you anyway. Years ago I got tired of my loud big single on One of my garden tractors. I went to the local auto parts stores and looked through their muffler catalogs to find the smallest auto muffler they could get. I found one that fit some older Honda. It is about 14" long and 6" diameter. I mounted it up using some pipe I had laying around from an old snowmobile. Did some bending and fabbed two mounts to hold it all in place.

It is the quietest air cooled engine I've ever heard and I've heard a bunch. I can hear the valves open and close on the bugger. In my case the effort was worth the result. Before I went to the car muffler I had a Stanley almost exactly like the one in the pic. Really not much quieter than the stock barker can.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 14, 2009)

palmrose2 said:


> I had a Stanley almost exactly like the one in the pic. Really not much quieter than the stock barker can.



Hopefully the packing in it will muffle it a bit. We shall see tomorrow IF the welding store is open. I kinda doubt it.

Ian


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## Ol' Brian (Aug 15, 2009)

Would it be possible to just take your splitter over to the muffler shop and let them fab something up for you?

Especially if one of those lottery tickets turns out to be a good one!!!

OH... I've got one of those mufflers on an 8hp Kohler... it's fairly quiet in its stock form.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 15, 2009)

I called one place and they said the smallest pipe they deal with is 1.5". I expect most shops are set up for cars.

Of course, the local welding gas supplier is closed on Saturday. I have to drive to Lexington this morning to get a fill. I'm thinking about upgrading to the next size bottle. I always go almost 2 bottles of acetylene to one bottle of oxy. No cutting, just piddling around brazing. I have the tiny bottles, the size of a small fire extinguisher.

Ian


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 15, 2009)

Got them packed and attached... Not satisfied. Still too loud. Gotta find someone to make the tractor muffler work.

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 15, 2009)

If I ever build a stand alone unit it will be powered by a Farmall Cub C60 flathead. They are extremely quiet running engine even without a muffler. Put on a muffler and you would think its an electric motor. I just happen to have a stationary version of one...hmmmm whataya know?


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 15, 2009)

What's HP on that engine? 

Ian


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## wkpoor (Aug 16, 2009)

Only about 10hp. 4cyl 60cu.in. However I bet it would hold its own against a modern twin around 16hp. They were originally rated at 1600rpm but mine has a special gov and it turn about 3000rpm. Very very smooth running engine. Only thing is they take up alot more room and probably weight about 2-3times more. Easy to hand crank start and cheap to maintain as parts are all available and easy to get. Power units usually go for 200-300.00 on Epay or Craig's List. Over the yrs I've owned 4 of them. Only one left in the garage and a spare motor for my 2 tractors. So all together I have 4 engines right now. They are plentiful as dandelions.


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## Haywire Haywood (Aug 16, 2009)

I'll bet it's a smooth bugger.. 4 cylinders and only 10hp. I'm assuming It's a horizontal shaft... 

Now If it were only triple that HP... I was having visions of single stage pumps...

Ian


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## Rookie1 (Aug 16, 2009)

Haywood Im thinking that Sears tractor I worked on had a 2 into one muffler setup. I thought it was quiet enough for a tractor. Maybe a mower shop or neighbor around you would have a junker tractor that you could use/adapt.


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## wkpoor (Aug 16, 2009)

> It that about the same engine that is on a Super C?


The B,BN,C or Super C had I believe a 123cu.in. overhead valve engine. Just about all te IH engines of the day ran 1600 RPM at high idle. The Cub engine was used on a number of implements in stationary form with different gov flyweight weights. By using the lightest available at max setting I can get 3000rpm out of it. My Allis CA ran my current set up for bout 3 yrs and it is roughly 26hp. Very smooth and quiet engine also and did a great job on the single stage PTO pump. The gov would have to open the throttle on tough pieces occasionally unlike the Deere that can't tell its got a pump on it.
Basically any tractor engine under 150cu.in. would be a good candidate for such a project. Over 150cu.in. and the engines do get rather large in size.


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