# How Hard are Black Locust Trees?



## UrbanLogger (Aug 2, 2006)

My Mail-woman has asked me to come take a look at about 50 to 100 Black Locust trees she needs removed from her Horse's Grazing area, mostly all out in the open, easy to remove, and fairly young. My question is, Is Black Locust a hard wood, and if so, how hard is it or what could it be compared to?

Thanks for the help.


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## stihlatit (Aug 2, 2006)

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/V2-432.html

Black locust wood has a large portion of uniformly distributed libriform fibers which confers great strength to wood. It has an average specific gravity of 0.68 compared to other North American hardwoods which average 0.51. Its average fiber length is 1.05 mm, slightly shorter than other hardwoods which average 1.13 mm. The central stem or pith of young black locust has a fiber length of 0.75 mm and specific gravity of 0.57, still well above the average mature hardwood values.

Five Best Burning Species
Hickory - 31 to 32 mm btu/cord 
Oak - 30 to 31 mm btu/cord 
Black Locust - 28 mm btu/cord 
Beech - 27 mm btu/cord 
Elms/Maples - 21 to 26 mm btu/cord


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## treeman82 (Aug 2, 2006)

If you are wanting to split and sell it for firewood, I'd say it falls in somewhere around Hickory and Elm. Very stringy wood. As far as burn quality goes... I'd say it's around Hickory / Ash. Value wise... it's less than pine.


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## Grace Tree (Aug 2, 2006)

Around here there's still a demand for them as fence posts. Mostly in the Amish community.
Phil


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 2, 2006)

stihlatit said:


> Black locust wood has a large portion of uniformly distributed libriform fibers which
> ...
> and specific gravity of 0.57, still well above the average mature hardwood values.




So, stihl'! The man asked a straightforward question! How about some specifics for him? This kind of vague stuff really isn't helpful!

 



Oh, man, 100 black locust trees for the taking! I'm drooling! It's stringy, but that much wood for FREE? Go for it!


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## Adkpk (Aug 2, 2006)

stihlatit said:


> http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/V2-432.html
> 
> Black locust wood has a large portion of uniformly distributed libriform fibers which confers great strength to wood. It has an average specific gravity of 0.68 compared to other North American hardwoods which average 0.51. Its average fiber length is 1.05 mm, slightly shorter than other hardwoods which average 1.13 mm. The central stem or pith of young black locust has a fiber length of 0.75 mm and specific gravity of 0.57, still well above the average mature hardwood values.
> 
> ...



Uhhh, so is it hard?


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## ray benson (Aug 2, 2006)

The Janka hardness test is a measurement of the force necessary to embed a .444-inch steel ball to half its diameter in wood. It is the industry standard for gauging the ability of various species to tolerate denting and normal wear, as well as being a good indication of the effort required to either nail or saw the particular wood. Here is a few woods and their hardness rating.
So Locust is a hard hardwood.


Hickory 1820
Locust 1700
Hard Maple/ Sugar Maple 1450
White Oak 1360
White Ash 1320
American Beech 1300
Red Oak 1290
Black Walnut 1010
Cedar 900
Sycamore 770
Chestnut 540


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 2, 2006)

Take a look here:

http://www.blountweb.com/goddards/firewood_ratings.htm

Dean


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## UrbanLogger (Aug 3, 2006)

Bacisally, what I'd like to know is, Is it hard in the sense that it will eat up my saw chains? How does it cut, or what other woods does it cut like?

And a new question...Is the stuff worth anything as fire wood?

Do those questions make sense...

Sorry, I should have specified that earlier. Sorry if these questions sound or seem dumb, I've never come across a Black Locust, Most of the cutting I do is various Maples, Willow, and alot of Pine in my area (among other common city trees)

Thanks for all of the help guys!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 3, 2006)

Here are some answers:



1CallLandscape said:


> ya, i never have had the oppertinity to burn hedge, but man i got some locust the other day from a job and the trees were standing dead for 20 years the owner said. i dulled 4 chains to take 8 trees down ( 12" ) the wood was so hard that when i hit it with a ball peen hammer it didnt even mak a mark. it burns for a REAL LONG time . i loaded my stove up on a 1/3 draft and it burned for 11 hours. so... yup if you can get locust its the best green or seasoned
> -mike



http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=433416&postcount=44

And this whole thread...


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## stihlatit (Aug 3, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> So, stihl'! The man asked a straightforward question! How about some specifics for him? This kind of vague stuff really isn't helpful!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe I answered his question. He asked if it was a hardwood.


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## stihlatit (Aug 3, 2006)

Adrpk said:


> Uhhh, so is it hard?



Read the last sentence. The BTU value I posted should tell you the same. Yes it is a hardwood.


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## UrbanLogger (Aug 3, 2006)

:deadhorse:


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 3, 2006)

stihlatit said:


> I believe I answered his question. He asked if it was a hardwood.




Whoa! Easy, guy! I was just funnin'. You didn't just give him an answer, you gave him the encyclopedia!


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## UrbanLogger (Aug 3, 2006)

It's alright, I understand what everyone is saying, it is a hard wood, and from the sounds of it a fairly hard one, the kind that I might have to sharpen a chain or 2 after cutting all that wood. One question left unanswered is...

Is it worth anything as firewood, will it be worth the trouble of me hauling it all away, splitting it all, and trying to sell it (i'll surely never burn that much wood)?

But anyway, thanks to everyone who has helped to answer my questions!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 3, 2006)

I've got a bit that I haven't burned yet. Everybody so far has told me it is GREAT. Several have told me it's their favorite wood to burn.

I'll let you know next spring!


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## Adkpk (Aug 3, 2006)

For the fire side enthusiast it is one of the most sought after hardwoods going.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 3, 2006)

That "beating a dead horse" smiley made me think of something. Isn't there a toxicity issue with locust and horses?


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## ray benson (Aug 3, 2006)

Horses are at risk, but all animals ingesting the plant may be poisoned. The leaves, especially wilted leaves, young shoots, pods, seeds, inner bark are dangerous to eat. Causes weakness, paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (could be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. Death is possible. Animals shouldn't be confined in an area where black locust grows.
That is probably why he is going to remove them.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 3, 2006)

How much does it take to be toxic? I remember a discussion a while back about acorns being toxic to dogs. Turned out to be true.

But the dog would have to eat something like 8 POUNDS before it would bother him!


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## buzz sawyer (Aug 3, 2006)

UrbanLogger said:


> It's alright, I understand what everyone is saying, it is a hard wood, and from the sounds of it a fairly hard one, the kind that I might have to sharpen a chain or 2 after cutting all that wood. One question left unanswered is...
> 
> Is it worth anything as firewood, will it be worth the trouble of me hauling it all away, splitting it all, and trying to sell it (i'll surely never burn that much wood)?
> 
> But anyway, thanks to everyone who has helped to answer my questions!



Not too bad to saw green with a good saw and sharp chain. When dry it becomes much tougher and harder to saw. Also shouldn't be too hard to split green. Makes great firewood, burns long and hot, but I never cared for the aroma of the smoke - kind of acrid / bitter smell.


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## stihlatit (Aug 3, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Whoa! Easy, guy! I was just funnin'. You didn't just give him an answer, you gave him the encyclopedia!



OOPs did not realize you were pullin' on the chain. LOL.


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## ray benson (Aug 3, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> How much does it take to be toxic? I remember a discussion a while back about acorns being toxic to dogs. Turned out to be true.
> 
> But the dog would have to eat something like 8 POUNDS before it would bother him!




I have seen consumption numbers of as little as 0.04% of body weight is toxic to horses; cattle may be affected by consumption of approximately 0.5% body weight.


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## stihlatit (Aug 3, 2006)

UrbanLogger said:


> It's alright, I understand what everyone is saying, it is a hard wood, and from the sounds of it a fairly hard one, the kind that I might have to sharpen a chain or 2 after cutting all that wood. One question left unanswered is...
> 
> Is it worth anything as firewood, will it be worth the trouble of me hauling it all away, splitting it all, and trying to sell it (i'll surely never burn that much wood)?
> 
> But anyway, thanks to everyone who has helped to answer my questions!



I as well as others have also answered that. Yes it is excellentas firewood.


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## stihlatit (Aug 3, 2006)

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant48.htm

Click above url and it will tell you how toxic it is.


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## kkottemann (Aug 3, 2006)

you might want to try and sell the wood to a bowyer. A bowyer is someone who makes custome archery equipment. Locust is great for that. I had a bow made from a piece of hickory once. The bowyer asked me if I had any more. I brought him 3 pickup truck loads of ripped boards. I got the bow for free. Look online and see in there are any bowyers in your area and make the call, you might get a better price for the wood.


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## turnkey4099 (Aug 4, 2006)

kkottemann said:


> you might want to try and sell the wood to a bowyer. A bowyer is someone who makes custome archery equipment. Locust is great for that. I had a bow made from a piece of hickory once. The bowyer asked me if I had any more. I brought him 3 pickup truck loads of ripped boards. I got the bow for free. Look online and see in there are any bowyers in your area and make the call, you might get a better price for the wood.



Well live and learn. I had never heard that you could make bows out of it. I would have thought it to be to stiff for that use. 

Firewood? Only the best there is IMO. When selling it should be priced at the top of the market.

Locust and cutting quality: Green not too bad. Dry it is hard on chains (and saws). Dry it will show sparks as you cut and even with a fresh sharp chain it willproduce powder as well as nice chips. Cruds up filters and the saw.

Splitting: Moderate green, very easy dry. Let dry long enough and it will almost fall apart. Check badly so don't be fooled by the nice look of a fresh cut round.

I cut a couple big ones after a williwaw blow down back in the 90s. Green, I couldn't even start a wedge in the round, had to cut a saw kerf before the wedge would hold.

Harry K


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## UrbanLogger (Aug 4, 2006)

ray benson said:


> Horses are at risk, but all animals ingesting the plant may be poisoned. The leaves, especially wilted leaves, young shoots, pods, seeds, inner bark are dangerous to eat. Causes weakness, paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (could be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. Death is possible. Animals shouldn't be confined in an area where black locust grows.
> That is probably why he is going to remove them.




That is exactly why they are being cut down, the woman had 3 huge trees in the horse's grazing area when she bought the place a long time ago, had them removed, but never bothered to remove the saplings growing along side the pasture, and now they are all about 20 to 30 feet tall, and are making her horses sick, they now must go...

And with the info provided by all of you (thank you) I will haul it away for her too, soulds like it wouls be worth me time to take the wood.


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## DeanBrown3D (Aug 4, 2006)

Yes here in NJ last year it was $200 a cord for oak, and $80 for 1/5 cord of either pure black locust or cherry wood. That adds up to $400 a cord.


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## jkowell1 (Aug 11, 2006)

*black locust*



UrbanLogger said:


> My Mail-woman has asked me to come take a look at about 50 to 100 Black Locust trees she needs removed from her Horse's Grazing area, mostly all out in the open, easy to remove, and fairly young. My question is, Is Black Locust a hard wood, and if so, how hard is it or what could it be compared to?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


You may want to ask a local wood worker, someone who does hand chisle work. they use the black locust wood to make hammers for wood working due to its extreme strength


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## aquan8tor (Nov 9, 2006)

Just had to chime in on this thread, even though its from a few months back. Black locust in this area is one of the very BEST woods to burn in a woodstove. I've used just about everything available, and it beats even oak by a mile. Hickory is good stuff too, and I'm sorry to say that walnut isn't bad. I didn't cut that one up, but I used it anyway. Burns a lot quicker than locust though. As far as its other properties, WOW! It outlasts treated pine poles for fenceposts by a longshot. Get a good solid locust post with no rot started, and it'll probably last 30 years or more in the ground. There are posts in the ground around my parents place that are from long before I was born (I'm 30). So whomever is valuing locust around where pine is, oh what a loss. I'm currently building a shed from locust posts and boards that I milled myself. They weigh almost twice as much as pine 2x6's, and likely have near the same amount of extra strength. (Don't need 2x6's for a shed roof anyway). Just wanted to proclaim my love of the, yes, nasty smelling wood. It also looks good on a floor.  I know some folks that used it for their bathroom floor---it looks similar to hickory--straight fine grain, but very yellow & deeper richer lustre. Good stuff. :yoyo:


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 9, 2006)

aquan8tor said:


> Just had to chime in on this thread, even though its from a few months back. Black locust in this area is one of the very BEST woods to burn in a woodstove. I've used just about everything available, and it beats even oak by a mile. Hickory is good stuff too, and I'm sorry to say that walnut isn't bad. I didn't cut that one up, but I used it anyway. Burns a lot quicker than locust though. As far as its other properties, WOW! It outlasts treated pine poles for fenceposts by a longshot. Get a good solid locust post with no rot started, and it'll probably last 30 years or more in the ground. There are posts in the ground around my parents place that are from long before I was born (I'm 30). So whomever is valuing locust around where pine is, oh what a loss. I'm currently building a shed from locust posts and boards that I milled myself. They weigh almost twice as much as pine 2x6's, and likely have near the same amount of extra strength. (Don't need 2x6's for a shed roof anyway). Just wanted to proclaim my love of the, yes, nasty smelling wood. It also looks good on a floor. I know some folks that used it for their bathroom floor---it looks similar to hickory--straight fine grain, but very yellow & deeper richer lustre. Good stuff. :yoyo:



It is also very good for teaching one how to sharpen chains. :biggrinbounce2: 

Harry K


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## Ax-man (Nov 9, 2006)

A little trivia 

1 seasoned standard cord Black Loucust has the same BTU's as 1 ton of hard coal. Brings top dollar on the firewood market, more than oak or hickory because it is a better wood and is scarce. The only wood that is better is Osage Orange aka Hedge wood. 

Just my two cents 

Larry


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 9, 2006)

I just burned my first chunks of locust last week.

MAN! That is gooooood stuff! Makes oak look like pine for lasting!


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## elmnut (Nov 9, 2006)

Black locust is awesome for burning, is a valuble wood for fence material, and has a great flower in the spring. It is also very invasive and not welcome in many areas, Native to Virginia I think. At any rate it is very dense, heavy and hard.


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## Baz (Nov 9, 2006)

*Black locust*

Not the easiest wood to split, but if your customers don't want it because they're not familiar with it, they're missing out on some really good firewood. I just took down about 50 black locusts. The wood wasn't nearly as hard on my chains as my son, who liked to buck through the logs into the rocks below them.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Nov 9, 2006)

elmnut said:


> Native to Virginia I think. At any rate it is very dense, heavy and hard.




No, I'm orignally from....


Oh! Sorry. I thought you were talking about my head there....



:yoyo:


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## (WLL) (Nov 9, 2006)

*black locust*



BlueRidgeMark said:


> No, I'm orignally from....
> 
> 
> Oh! Sorry. I thought you were talking about my head there....
> ...


black locust is widely planted for ornament and shelterbelts,and 4 erosion control particulary on lands strip-mined 4 coal. although this tree grows rapidly and spreads by sprouts like a weed,it is short- lived. virginia indians used this wood 4 bows and planted lots or trees eastward. this species (robinia pseudoacacia) was discovered in 1607 by british colonists it was named 4 its resemblance to the carob tree or old world locust(ceratonia siliqua) posts of this durable timber served as conerposts 4 the 1st colonists homes. very very hard wood burns like coal


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## aquan8tor (Nov 10, 2006)

Baz said:


> Not the easiest wood to split, but if your customers don't want it because they're not familiar with it, they're missing out on some really good firewood. I just took down about 50 black locusts. The wood wasn't nearly as hard on my chains as my son, who liked to buck through the logs into the rocks below them.




  

I'm sure my father cursed me when I learned to use his saw. I coulda sworn there were rocks in the logs that I milled for my shed lumber!!!! Seemed like I could only get a few 2x10's between chain sharpenings. Full comp 32" bailey's rip chain. HARD STUFF.


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## aquan8tor (Nov 10, 2006)

I was going to add that it is usually a fringe tree when forests regrow after clearcut or fire. In an area on my family's property that was logged to pay for some upgrades to a 100+ year old farmhouse, the area is full of locust and black cherry saplings a few years later. That means I'll have LOTS of free firewood in about 15-20 years.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Nov 11, 2006)

ray benson said:


> I have seen consumption numbers of as little as 0.04% of body weight is toxic to horses; cattle may be affected by consumption of approximately 0.5% body weight.





> _This material is based upon work supported by the Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, under a Southern Region IPM Program special project number 97-EPMP-1-0153._


http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/blacklocust.html
*Toxic agent*
The toxic agent of black locust is robin, a protein toxin. All parts of the plant except the flower are toxic. Horses, cattle, sheep and poultry have been poisoned. Horses are most often poisoned and are the most susceptible species. Horses that consumed as little as 0.04 percent of their weight in bark showed signs of poisoning in 1.5 hours.​
So that is 20# per 500# of bodyweight. I think a horse could eat that w/o a problem.


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## Sprig (Nov 11, 2006)

Geeze, we don't have it here but obviously burning it requires some good sense, good ventilation, and so forth. Did not know it was poisonous to critters (I am assuming that means most of us here too....aferall), good info mate!!


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## rebelman (Nov 11, 2006)

They bloom in March or so white like dogwood. I love black locust. I'll leave one or two when clearing a lot. They give diversity and feature to logged or burnt areas.


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## Canyon Angler (Nov 13, 2006)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/plants/blacklocust.html
> *Toxic agent*
> The toxic agent of black locust is robin, a protein toxin. All parts of the plant except the flower are toxic. Horses, cattle, sheep and poultry have been poisoned. Horses are most often poisoned and are the most susceptible species. Horses that consumed as little as 0.04 percent of their weight in bark showed signs of poisoning in 1.5 hours.​
> So that is 20# per 500# of bodyweight. I think a horse could eat that w/o a problem.



I think 0.04 percent of body weight in a 500# animal would be two-tenths of a pound (0.2#), not 20 pounds... Four one-hundredths of one percent ain't much...same as 400 ppm.


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## kevinj (Dec 1, 2006)

*Wear leather gloves*

A word of advice. Watch out for those thorns. If you get poked by one, lots of times they break the little tip off and stay in your hand. If you dont remove it right away, it'll fester up. OUCH!!


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## woodchux (Dec 1, 2006)

Wild cherry is also very toxic to horses [cyanide]


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