# lifting a limb



## abidingdreams (Sep 6, 2013)

When you come into a situation where a limb needs to be tip tied and lifted to avoid hitting an object below how do you get enough force to lift it? The object that is in question is a power line and I'm nervous that if I weren't to lift, but instead cut and let it swing, That it would still swing into the power line. The rigging equipment I currently have is a portawrap, cmi 3/4 inch block, one loopie sling and a dead eye sling. With a 3/4 inch Husky bull rope. Ive thought about running the rope through the block attached up in the tree down to a truck and making the notch cut on top back cut and slowly lifting limb with truck. That seems kind of ghetto to me so I was looking for other ideas. Thank you in advance for your advice


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## Carburetorless (Sep 6, 2013)

opcorn:


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## Del_ (Sep 6, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> When you come into a situation where a limb needs to be tip tied and lifted to avoid hitting an object below how do you get enough force to lift it? The object that is in question is a power line and I'm nervous that if I weren't to lift, but instead cut and let it swing, That it would still swing into the power line. The rigging equipment I currently have is a portawrap, cmi 3/4 inch block, one loopie sling and a dead eye sling. With a 3/4 inch Husky bull rope. Ive thought about running the rope through the block attached up in the tree down to a truck and making the notch cut on top back cut and slowly lifting limb with truck. That seems kind of ghetto to me so I was looking for other ideas. Thank you in advance for your advice




You are way out of your league and your life is at stake. That kind of work is done by certified line clearance workers using insulated tools and insulated lifts which are inspected regularly.


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## abidingdreams (Sep 6, 2013)

Del_ said:


> You are way out of your league and your life is at stake. That kind of work is done by certified line clearance workers using insulated tools and insulated lifts which are inspected regularly.



That is very good advice and this is a more hypothetical question. I reason for that is because I bid a job about two months ago and was just now getting ready to start. I had to call the HO and say that in order for me to do the tree I would need extensive crane work, seeing that my experience didn't allow for me to take it down safely. I had to raise my estimate, which in turn probably lost me the job. All that being said I don't stop thinking about the situations that I will more than likely run into in the future. I have purchased advanced rigging books and plan on further research to gain a better understanding of these types of jobs. I cant turn down every job because of hazards, I am a tree cutter after all and all trees come with their fair share of hazards. But I do know what is over my head though. Thank you again for the advice but still curious on how to create enough force to get a horizontal limb to stand vertically


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## Pelorus (Sep 6, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> still curious on how to create enough force to get a horizontal limb to stand vertically



Just tip tie it. As soon as you cut it, gravity will create enough force.
You may want to practice on small limbs so you don't break any of your limbs.


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 7, 2013)

If you don't have a GRCS, you can use a winch/fiddle blocks in combination with your port'a'wrap. 

Put the winch/fiddle blocks between the whoopie (or however you attach the porti to the tree) and the porti. Tie your rigging line off at the porti and leave it up in the air the same distance as you want to pull the top over. When you put the notch in the limb, pull on the winch/fiddle block which will pull the porti down and the tip of the branch into a vertical position. When it is high enough, lower using the porti.


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## Limbrat (Sep 7, 2013)

If it's primary voltage, or open wire secondary (non-insulated), you need to pass. Insulated secondary and service drops are a whole different ball game. If you don't know the difference, call your power company. If it's a service wire and you can't work around it, most companies will drop them while you remove the tree at no charge.


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## chief116 (Sep 7, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> That is very good advice and this is a more hypothetical question. I reason for that is because I bid a job about two months ago and was just now getting ready to start. I had to call the HO and say that in order for me to do the tree I would need extensive crane work, seeing that my experience didn't allow for me to take it down safely. I had to raise my estimate, which in turn probably lost me the job. All that being said I don't stop thinking about the situations that I will more than likely run into in the future. I have purchased advanced rigging books and plan on further research to gain a better understanding of these types of jobs. I cant turn down every job because of hazards, I am a tree cutter after all and all trees come with their fair share of hazards. But I do know what is over my head though. Thank you again for the advice but still curious on how to create enough force to get a horizontal limb to stand vertically



If tip tying is over your head, you might want to try hiring an experienced climber.


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## lone wolf (Sep 7, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> When you come into a situation where a limb needs to be tip tied and lifted to avoid hitting an object below how do you get enough force to lift it? The object that is in question is a power line and I'm nervous that if I weren't to lift, but instead cut and let it swing, That it would still swing into the power line. The rigging equipment I currently have is a portawrap, cmi 3/4 inch block, one loopie sling and a dead eye sling. With a 3/4 inch Husky bull rope. Ive thought about running the rope through the block attached up in the tree down to a truck and making the notch cut on top back cut and slowly lifting limb with truck. That seems kind of ghetto to me so I was looking for other ideas. Thank you in advance for your advice



220 or 7200?


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## Pelorus (Sep 7, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> Ive thought about running the rope through the block attached up in the tree down to a truck and making the notch cut on top back cut and slowly lifting limb with truck. That seems kind of ghetto to me so I was looking for other ideas. Thank you in advance for your advice



In all seriousness, the ghetto method can work quite well, (depending on tree species and condition) although I use a capstan winch and not a vehicle. And I would not even remotely consider doing this in proximity to high voltage conductors. 

Went to a Vermeer/Sherrill open house demo day thingy awhile back, and the instructor demonstrated lifting a tip-tied limb by tediously making long horizontal parallel cuts. (The backcut was horizontal to the ground). It looked both complicated and horribly time-consuming. Anything that makes a complicated job more complicated is something that needs to be really excellent to be worthwhile, imo.


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## abidingdreams (Sep 7, 2013)

Limbrat said:


> If it's primary voltage, or open wire secondary (non-insulated), you need to pass. Insulated secondary and service drops are a whole different ball game. If you don't know the difference, call your power company. If it's a service wire and you can't work around it, most companies will drop them while you remove the tree at no charge.




Its a open secondary wire, and that is the reason why I passed. 



chief116 said:


> If tip tying is over your head, you might want to try hiring an experienced climber.



Its not that tip tying is over my head but Im not efficient enough at it to be doing such a complicated job. Plus if I don't increase my knowledge and understanding of some more advanced techniques I will be hiring out all my work for the rest of my life and to be honest I love climbing far to much to be doing that. 


Also I want to thank everyone else for their excellent advice and I really appreciate your time.


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## capetrees (Sep 7, 2013)

I was workling around an open wire secondary, 14K, last month or so and paid the price and I'm lucky to be alive to tell about it. Never again. Just walk away and don't F with power. This never should have happened, completely my fault, just being stupid.

As ar as tip tying or upward force, I usually try to cut it in smaller pieces and that way a ground guy can usually lift the limb without too much trouble. Or try to cut it and have gravity swing the branch or limb where you want it to go. Every siuation is different but STAY AWAY FROM POWER.


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## chief116 (Sep 7, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> Its a open secondary wire, and that is the reason why I passed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're a business owner, correct? There's nothing wrong with hiring a guy you can learn from. Watching a guy do it from 10 feet away is a better way to learn than asking for advice on an internet forum every time you run into a potential hazard.

How long is the limb, what kind of tree, how high above the primaries? Is it a brittle species that'll snap as soon as the saw hits it? Is the limb fat enough to notch and stand upright as you undercut. An experienced climber on your staff can show you what to do for those situations that come up.


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## Limbrat (Sep 7, 2013)

capetrees said:


> I was workling around an open wire secondary, 14K, last month or so and paid the price and I'm lucky to be alive to tell about it. Never again. Just walk away and don't F with power. This never should have happened, completely my fault, just being stupid.
> 
> As ar as tip tying or upward force, I usually try to cut it in smaller pieces and that way a ground guy can usually lift the limb without too much trouble. Or try to cut it and have gravity swing the branch or limb where you want it to go. Every siuation is different but STAY AWAY FROM POWER.



Most open wire secondary is 120/240v. !4kV is a LONG way from secondary. About 14,000 volts to be exact.


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## capetrees (Sep 7, 2013)

I asked the power company and a few electricians around here. Not the big power bringing in the power to the town buit the secondary power, prior to the transformers.


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## lone wolf (Sep 7, 2013)

abidingdreams said:


> When you come into a situation where a limb needs to be tip tied and lifted to avoid hitting an object below how do you get enough force to lift it? The object that is in question is a power line and I'm nervous that if I weren't to lift, but instead cut and let it swing, That it would still swing into the power line. The rigging equipment I currently have is a portawrap, cmi 3/4 inch block, one loopie sling and a dead eye sling. With a 3/4 inch Husky bull rope. Ive thought about running the rope through the block attached up in the tree down to a truck and making the notch cut on top back cut and slowly lifting limb with truck. That seems kind of ghetto to me so I was looking for other ideas. Thank you in advance for your advice



Just stay away from it. That stuff kills.


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## lone wolf (Sep 7, 2013)

[video=youtube;8IGOsDBlP0s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGOsDBlP0s[/video]


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## Grace Tree (Sep 7, 2013)

capetrees said:


> I was workling around an open wire secondary, 14K, last month or so and paid the price and I'm lucky to be alive to tell about it. Never again. Just walk away and don't F with power. This never should have happened, completely my fault, just being stupid.
> 
> As ar as tip tying or upward force, I usually try to cut it in smaller pieces and that way a ground guy can usually lift the limb without too much trouble. Or try to cut it and have gravity swing the branch or limb where you want it to go. Every siuation is different but STAY AWAY FROM POWER.



We were taking down a silver maple today and I cut a branch tip and swung it into an open wire secondary. For a very painful moment I was part of the grid. If it hadn't been for near ideal conditions I'm certain I would have been hurt pretty badly or worse. I don't know what the voltage is. Power guys have told me 2K. We call them back yard top wires or mean green because of the color. Not common where I normally work but I've seen enough of them to treat them like a killer. Like Capetrees, it was completely stupid and my fault. It's a bad deal to get tired and careless.
Phil


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## Del_ (Sep 7, 2013)

Grace Tree said:


> We were taking down a silver maple today and I cut a branch tip and swung it into an open wire secondary. For a very painful moment I was part of the grid. If it hadn't been for near ideal conditions I'm certain I would have been hurt pretty badly or worse. I don't know what the voltage is. Power guys have told me 2K. We call them back yard top wires or mean green because of the color. Not common where I normally work but I've seen enough of them to treat them like a killer. Like Capetrees, it was completely stupid and my fault. It's a bad deal to get tired and careless.
> Phil




I've never heard of primaries being as low a 2KV. More like 10kv.


Here's a good video showing electrical fires spreading house to house. Better have your insurance paid up!

http://youtu.be/KM1snQAh8a0


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## futbalfantic (Sep 7, 2013)

So let's ignore the power lines and say a basket of kittens that cannot be moved. Would: A hinge on the top of the limb with the back cut on the underside. The branch tip tied with a block high enough to close the angle then down to a porty. Between the porty and block use mech adv and take up slack on the porty until the hinge closes and breaks the hinge :work?


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## beastmaster (Sep 8, 2013)

Before risking those kittens, tip tie some limbs with nothing under them. In other words practice on limbs that can't hurt any thing. There are a lot of Technics and tricks, for tip tieing branches that run from quick and easy to detailed and time consuming, lot depends on the size of the limb, the species of tree and what you want the limb to do. Next time your in a tree and things are a little slow, tip tie a long limb and cut it and see what happens. Do it in a safe tree, don't do it for the first time when it's a do or die situation.
One time in real life will show you more then a hundred explanations on the internet. Don't forget to duck.


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## Limbrat (Sep 8, 2013)

capetrees said:


> I asked the power company and a few electricians around here. Not the big power bringing in the power to the town buit the secondary power, prior to the transformers.



Secondary voltage is that which serves the customers, be it for your house, (120/240) or various voltages for businesses up to around 277/480v.

Primary distribution voltages vary widely, but most are in the 7200 to 14400 volt range. These are the lines that are normally not insulated and are at the top of 40-55 foot poles. These run through towns and neighborhoods mostly in a three phase configuration, three primary wires at the top of the pole with a neutral wire five or six feet lower. They may be on cross arms or stacked vertically on insulators. In rural areas there may be only one primary wire on the pole along with the neutral wire. Primary is what feeds the transformer by your house and the transformer steps the voltage down to "secondary" voltage that you use. 

Transmission lines are what you call "big power". In our area, they range from 69,000 to 500,000 volts and are on poles from 65 to over 100 feet tall, along with steel towers. Hope this helps.


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## capetrees (Sep 8, 2013)

***Primary distribution voltages vary widely, but most are in the 7200 to 14400 volt range. These are the lines that are normally not insulated and are at the top of 40-55 foot poles. In rural areas there may be only one primary wire on the pole along with the neutral wire. Primary is what feeds the transformer by your house and the transformer steps the voltage down to "secondary" voltage that you use.***

It does NOW!! (but still not funny)


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## capetrees (Sep 8, 2013)

futbalfantic said:


> So let's ignore the power lines and say a basket of kittens that cannot be moved. Would: A hinge on the top of the limb with the back cut on the underside. The branch tip tied with a block high enough to close the angle then down to a porty. Between the porty and block use mech adv and take up slack on the porty until the hinge closes and breaks the hinge :work?



Something else I've done with awkward limbs is tie a second rope to the base of the limb while also tied out towrd the tip. Once free, the limb is maneuverable at your discretion. A third rope could even be used to guide once free. 

I come up with these hillbilly ideas because these are the situations I am called to all the time. Did it just yesterday with a broken limb in the tree, balanced perfectly so if one side is cut, the other will drop on the house. Had to secure one side where it was, second rope to one of the limbs, cut and free that, repeat for the other limb, free that and then raise and free the base which was initially tied off. Entire branch was too big and woven into the branches of the living tree to be raised up.


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## futbalfantic (Sep 8, 2013)

That makes since cap. I can foresee a need for that. But when lifting a limb using mechanical advantage how do you get it to release the main line to allow it to lower the limb. Say you use a prusik to attach to the main line. It will not allow the main to "free spool" through you hand/porty


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 8, 2013)

Like others have said practice on an easy tree not one where its do or die.

Volts and amps always are found together.Volts are simply flow of electrons.Amps are the force that creates increased electron flow per given equal time intervals.When amps and volts are combined power is created called watts.W=VxI,I being the symbol for amps.It is the amps that will kill you not the volts.The capacity of the human to survive depends upon the circumstances.A person can survive a bolt of lightning and yet be killed by ordinary house current and vice versa.. STAY SAFE.


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## Del_ (Sep 8, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Like others have said practice on an easy tree not one where its do or die.
> 
> Volts and amps always are found together.Volts are simply flow of electrons.Amps are the force that creates increased electron flow per given equal time intervals.When amps and volts are combined power is created called watts.W=VxI,I being the symbol for amps.It is the amps that will kill you not the volts.The capacity of the human to survive depends upon the circumstances.A person can survive a bolt of lightning and yet be killed by ordinary house current and vice versa.. STAY SAFE.




You've got amps and volts mixed up. Volts are the 'pressure' and amps are the 'flow'.


In fact an amp is 6.241×1018 electrons, or one coulomb per second, constituting one ampere.


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## Limbrat (Sep 8, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Like others have said practice on an easy tree not one where its do or die.
> 
> Volts and amps always are found together.Volts are simply flow of electrons.Amps are the force that creates increased electron flow per given equal time intervals.When amps and volts are combined power is created called watts.W=VxI,I being the symbol for amps.It is the amps that will kill you not the volts.The capacity of the human to survive depends upon the circumstances.A person can survive a bolt of lightning and yet be killed by ordinary house current and vice versa.. STAY SAFE.



Del is correct on the volt/amp discussion. Volts and amps are also not always found together. A line can be charged at 115,000 volts but with no load on it the amp reading is zero. In fact I'VE been charged at 115,000 volts working in a live line barehand bucket and as long as the boom is clean and I am touching nothing but the wire, there is no current flow (amps) through me down the boom and to ground. There is an ampmeter on the boom to ensure it's integrity. You are in effect, like a bird sitting on the line. However, if I reached out and touched the pole while energized at 115,000 volts, not only would many amps be generated and a huge electrical fire ensue, but I would be a crispy critter. Moral of the story; don't be a crispy critter!


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## abidingdreams (Sep 8, 2013)

capetrees said:


> I was workling around an open wire secondary, 14K, last month or so and paid the price and I'm lucky to be alive to tell about it. Never again. Just walk away and don't F with power. This never should have happened, completely my fault, just being stupid.
> 
> As ar as tip tying or upward force, I usually try to cut it in smaller pieces and that way a ground guy can usually lift the limb without too much trouble. Or try to cut it and have gravity swing the branch or limb where you want it to go. Every siuation is different but STAY AWAY FROM POWER.



Wow guys I cant believe y'all have been zapped and are still alive! I absolutely hate working near current. I don't even like climbing around insulated stuff. 



chief116 said:


> You're a business owner, correct? There's nothing wrong with hiring a guy you can learn from. Watching a guy do it from 10 feet away is a better way to learn than asking for advice on an internet forum every time you run into a potential hazard.
> 
> How long is the limb, what kind of tree, how high above the primaries? Is it a brittle species that'll snap as soon as the saw hits it? Is the limb fat enough to notch and stand upright as you undercut. An experienced climber on your staff can show you what to do for those situations that come up.



In my area there is only one other company that climbs and to be honest with you he scares the livin daylights out of me. My ground crew that works for me now worked for him for about 7 years and he tells me that he free climbs with no attachment in the canopy, no climbing line, and will limb walk without even a lanyard attached. The limbs I was talking about were about were probably 20' tall 8" in diameter and at about a 50 degree angle. It was two elm trees so it would have been strong enough to get some mechanical advantage on for sure.


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## chief116 (Sep 9, 2013)

Grab a fiddle block and learn to set up a 3 or 5 to 1 on a portawrap, then show your groundie if you aren't planning on investing in a GRCS. Larger limbs notch the top and back cut slowly while he tensions, smaller limbs you can just undercut while he stands it up. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but your ground guy with 7 years experience can't help you out while you learn? He doesn't have to climb, I know lots of guys than can tell you how to take apart a tree that don't every leave the ground.


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 9, 2013)

Del_ said:


> I've never heard of primaries being as low a 2KV. More like 10kv.
> 
> 
> Here's a good video showing electrical fires spreading house to house. Better have your insurance paid up!
> ...


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 9, 2013)

I got bit pretty good off a bare pencil wire feeding a farm house , basically 3 phase stacked and bare , I cut a silver maple branch brushed it with just the tip not even enough to slow down the branch ...... However , it was a shot to me that I won't soon forget , I squeezed the trigger on the saw and curled my toes to the point that I rubbed the skin off a few From the sock and the top of my boot , And that was 240 ... I have a friend who works for Nelson and he hit low hanging 69 wires with a skidder , machine basically burned to the ground in less then 5 minutes , he was smart enough to make a clean jump , he was burned severely and has taken another position with the company . It's a nasty thing to be juiced , I watched a video of a guy in the early 80's who accidentally came into contact with a garage service line through his belt , burned his intestines and damaged his spine , he's paralyzed from the neck down , I have taken ehap and fires and wires ..... Still I am not comfortable with alot of trees and proximity to wires , that's why I have the bat phone number of a guy who works the trouble truck , one call clears emall


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## Limbrat (Sep 11, 2013)

treeclimber101 said:


> I got bit pretty good off a bare pencil wire feeding a farm house , basically 3 phase stacked and bare , I cut a silver maple branch brushed it with just the tip not even enough to slow down the branch ...... However , it was a shot to me that I won't soon forget , I squeezed the trigger on the saw and curled my toes to the point that I rubbed the skin off a few From the sock and the top of my boot , And that was 240 ... I have a friend who works for Nelson and he hit low hanging 69 wires with a skidder , machine basically burned to the ground in less then 5 minutes , he was smart enough to make a clean jump , he was burned severely and has taken another position with the company . It's a nasty thing to be juiced , I watched a video of a guy in the early 80's who accidentally came into contact with a garage service line through his belt , burned his intestines and damaged his spine , he's paralyzed from the neck down , I have taken ehap and fires and wires ..... Still I am not comfortable with alot of trees and proximity to wires , that's why I have the bat phone number of a guy who works the trouble truck , one call clears emall



That's the thing about lower voltage, it makes your muscles contract just like the electrical impulse sent from your brain. You can get locked up and not be able to break yourself free until the limb or whatever is making contact comes clear.


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