# tall straight pines, worth anything?



## scooby (Apr 28, 2007)

i am buying a property in upstate ny. it is over run with HUGH pines, at least 60ft high and 1-3ft accross. they are mostly straight. can i sell them for anything?


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## Ianab (Apr 28, 2007)

Possibly....

Depends on how many, what species and where they are.

The person you need to talk to is a consulting forestor in the local area. He can advise you on managing the forest, harvesting and marketing the logs. There is more to managing the forest than just cutting down the trees.
Also dont just take the first offer you get for the trees from a passing logger, chances are you will get ripped off and end up with a clearcut disaster area. 
Thats where the expertise of a forestor (working for YOU) will ensure the right trees are harvested by a good logger and sold to the mills paying the best prices.

Cheers

Ian.


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## lorax (Apr 28, 2007)

*Pines?*

Where at in upstate NY. Email me [email protected]


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## scooby (Apr 29, 2007)

i can fall them myself, i can drag them to the road with my suburban (i think) i just need someone to buy them.

if a discription will help,

















do i have enough trees to get my own hippy? only time will tell. lol

let me know folks.


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## tawilson (Apr 29, 2007)

lorax said:


> Where at in upstate NY. Email me [email protected]



Upstate NY means anything north of NYC till you get to the thruway. Then it's northern NY.


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## scooby (Apr 29, 2007)

so what kind of price would i be looking at if i fall the trees, and get them to the road? $1500? $15,000?


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## Industry (Apr 29, 2007)

Somehow I don't think you will be skidding those pines with a suburban. Maybe I'm wrong thoughopcorn:


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## joesawer (Apr 29, 2007)

No one can give you an accurate price with the info you have provided. How many trees, how big are they (actually), How many limbs and defects, what kind of ground are they on, how much room is there to work, what kind of access is there, how far from the mill are they? All of this and more comes into play, The only way to give a fair or reasonable estimate is for some one to cruise the timber in person.
Any logger I have ever known would prefer to fall and buck them himself. 
The wear and tear of skidding them with a Suburbon would probably be more than the value of the logs.


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## clearance (Apr 29, 2007)

Industry said:


> Somehow I don't think you will be skidding those pines with a suburban. Maybe I'm wrong thoughopcorn:



Maybe in 8' chunks.


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## Ianab (Apr 29, 2007)

To give you an idea.. a 36" dia x 16ft pine log weighs about 5,000 lbs.

:lifter: 

Cheers

Ian


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## rbtree (Apr 29, 2007)

I don't think pine pays over $400mbf anywhere in the US....And those don't look huge to me. Minimum length is probably 16'6"....scale is determined by the top diameter of each log, inside the bark. A log truck typically can haul 3000-6000bf...

Log volume and weight calculators are here:

http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSCalculators.html

With that many branches, which makes for trunk taper, I doubt that a 2 foot dbh tree would scale out at more than 600bf....and probably much less. 

Get a forester to scale them for you...


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## scooby (Apr 30, 2007)

MBF? million board feet?


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## gavin (Apr 30, 2007)

keep in mind the money you're gonna get from the timber will vary. i don't know much about pine, but like others have said, grades depend on top diameter inside bark, straightness, grain spacing, knots, diseases, species, and the market prices will vary with supply and demand. talk to foresters and scalers. if you plan on doing sustainable harvesting over the long run definately talk to foresters. sometimes its best to to selectively take trees, but other times some species are not shade tollerant and will not grow back in a thinned out forest. clearcuts can be good; most people don't like them based on aesthetic reasons. foresters i used to work with said around here clearcuts combined with replanting proper species percentages are good, because douglas fir is the predominant tree species and is shade intollerant. so if it was selectively logging, after a generation you'd have an unnatrual species breakdown, with a whole bunch of hemlock and balsam, and very little douglas fir....so long story short, talk to someone that knows about the ecology of your area, tell them your plans, and then decide what will best suit you. oh yeah, and find out the preferred lengths the mill will want for each grade. it would be a shame if you bucked a bunch incorrectly and part of each log went to waste.


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## scooby (Apr 30, 2007)

my long term plan is to live here five years then move to PA. i am building a house on this lot. so when i sell 7 acres and a 3 bedroom house i should get about 300K. when i move to pa the same house will cost me 100K. so no mortgage to pay. and seeing as i am building my house with just my paycheck, no mortgage now.
so take all the good ones.....

now tonight i sign the deal, so i hope they are worth something.


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## scooby (Apr 30, 2007)

i have to ask again MBF? =million board feet?


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## clearance (Apr 30, 2007)

scooby said:


> i have to ask again MBF? =million board feet?



MBF=thousand board feet. Board foot 12" x !2" x 1".


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## scooby (Apr 30, 2007)

a very conseritive estimate is 100 trees at 12" accross and 50ft tall.

The board footage value for the information you entered is:
36000 Board Feet

so like $22,000?


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## scooby (Apr 30, 2007)

ok thanks, i did find the thousand board feet thing. so for an idea of tree size i snapped this today when i bought the property.


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## Forest Steward (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm kind of curious too where exactly you are in the state. If you'd prefer not to mention it in public, you can always PM me. From what I can see in your pics, there might not be a ton of footage there, but definitely a time to do some management cutting. It looks like there's a lot of potential there. We work a lot with pine at work, but it's not really my place to give prices. It's not my checkbook, and like everyone else has said, there's a lot of variables. 

I don't know what your cutting experience is, but if your going to do it yourself, I hope your fairly comfortable with felling. Especially this time of year with the bark of the trees loosening up. You can do a lot of damage to the leave trees if your not careful. Same thing goes for skidding (especially when you start getting all those top branches hung up in each other). And I would not go bucking all those logs at 8'6'' so your Suburban can handle it. You are going to loose a lot of grade (i.e. money) that way. This is where having an experienced logger will help. There's a few threads floating around in the recent past that go a little more into that.

As far as your original question, is it worth it? It is hard to say in just a few photos, but one way you can tell is if you go in the stand and there is absolutely no light hitting the ground. If this is happening, it's going to be too crowded for you tops to grow out and can stunt the trees growth, as well as completely eliminating any growth in the understory. So even if your not going to get the big bucks this time around, it will help the forest. I guess it depends on your level of commitment to the woodlot, and how much of the project you want to take on yourself. Good luck and let us know how things go.


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## scooby (May 1, 2007)

medusa ny.

i dont care about the lot i am only staying for 5 years then moving to Pennsylvania.


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## scooby (May 1, 2007)

three final question i think....

can someone tell me what kind of pine i have from this bark picture? 

will a husky 455 rancher be good for falling and "bucking?" them  

and who wants to buy my trees at what length?


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## Forest Steward (May 1, 2007)

Question 1: They're white pines
Question 2: Keep the saw sharp and it'll move through it alright. It's pretty
soft wood.
Question 3: I know the guy I work with isn't going to buy any logs unless he
bucks them up himself or he knows the guy doing it knows what
he is doing. Length is meaningless if you screw up the grade. I
can't speak for everyone here, but that's generally the
consensus with most guys.


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## scooby (May 2, 2007)

i am a fast learner. if someone tells me what to do i can do it.

i can fall a tree, i can cut it to whatever length this person wants. 

dont know what grading is, but i am sure it cant be too hard.

white pine? isent that used for carving small wooden things? like decoy ducks?

can you build with it too?


hey one more thought, besides falling, bucking, and grading... what if i haul it too the mill? i can take 8 or so at a time.


i need to make the max amount of money, because i am building my house out-of-pocket. so help me out if you would. i would be happy to show the property and trees your your co-worker


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## clearance (May 2, 2007)

Scooby, I am in B.C., but trees is trees. A decent faller will have those trees down, limbed and bucked to the proper length before you get out of bed, I do not say this to insult you at all, but it ain't that simple or easy. Just like you could tell me how to play a guitar, do you want to hear me practice or do you want to hear Jimi Hendrix? You can save yourself a whole bunch of trouble if you do as FS, RBtree and others have advised you. Let the singers sing and let the dancers dance.


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## scooby (May 2, 2007)

i cant say i will be good, but i will get it done, the correct way.

i cant dance, but i can move my feet slowly.


i am building my house by myself. i know 10 contractors that could have my house built in 3 weeks. but i am doing it myself to save tons.

i want to do all the work myself so i can get the most for the trees.
trust me, i'm not good, or a pro, but just a smart person who can get any job done that i want to.


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## Husky137 (May 2, 2007)

Putting an adequate dollar value on one's time can be the smartest move.

Cutting to grade isn't easy if you don't know how to read a log for defects, sweep and rot. A 10 second bucking cut in the wrong place can cost a lot of money in lost log value. Sometimes a tree is worth more cut into 8'6" sometimes 16'6". A lot depends on what the mill wants. Trucking them yourself? Sure but what do you really save. 100 trees can probably average you 3-4 16 foot logs, how many trips is that 8 logs at a time? You won't have much time to build that house.

So what do you think your time is worth?


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## Forest Steward (May 2, 2007)

First of all, the reason nobody is giving you a step by step process on grading logs is because it's really not possible. Sure, there are some basic rules/concepts to go by, but each tree is an individual and needs to be looked at as such. I'm a bit far out of the way myself to check it out though. Otherwise he'd be all about it. We work a lot with pine.

"dont know what grading is, but i am sure it cant be too hard."
Heh...I know what grading is and it's still hard.

Grading isn't about how smart you are. To do it right, you need to know what the middle of the log looks like just from looking at the ends and bark. You have to know local markets and what mills want. You keep talking about maximizing your dollars by doing it yourself, but it's not going to happen. Grading is where the logger really earns his money. There is a reason us loggers are still around. We know our area of expertise. Not only that, but if you talk to any logger, he'll tell you all sorts of stories about getting ripped off by the mills. And these are guys who know about the business. Think what a mill is going to try on someone who doesn't know the ins and outs. Ooh, and by the way, with this part of the business, you have to be good for it to be done right.

As far as hauling, just have it hauled for you. Compare your 8 logs per trip to a tri-axle load of 50 or so per trip. Paying the guy to haul is going save you more money once you account for your fuel and wear and tear. Doing it yourself isn't going to be financially beneficial if you don't have the right equipment or know how.

One more overall issue with doing it yourself is how long it will take you. Right now with the weather like it is, your racing the clock. If you start cutting all these pines down and let them set there now that it's warming up, the wood is going to start staining on you from a fungal infection. Happens really quickly in pines especially. This is the worst time of the year to be logging high grade trees in this area. Any staining is going to effect it's grade/worth to the mill, and if it's bad enough, they'll just out right reject them. Just some more food for thought.


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## redprospector (May 2, 2007)

Scooby,
I'm sure you're a smart fellow, but I think you're over matching your self.
If you want the most out of your timber get someone who knows how to do it. You will loose more making the wrong cut's than a good cutter will cost.
Cutting to grade isn't something you can be told how to do over the internet, it's something you learn over the years.

Andy


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## Joey92TT (May 2, 2007)

Scooby, I'd be real careful if you don't have much experience with felling trees before you go cutting the pine down. Trees of that size are dangerous. I'm feller and it's dangerous.


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## rbtree (May 3, 2007)

scooby said:


> a very conseritive estimate is 100 trees at 12" accross and 50ft tall.
> 
> The board footage value for the information you entered is:
> 36000 Board Feet
> ...



I doubt you'd get more than $350mbf for that wood....subtract $300 or so for trucking per 4000 bf log truck load, and you're not left with much. Pine isn't very profitable to log.


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## scooby (May 3, 2007)

ok FS how mutch does the logger charge? i think i remember hearing 50%?


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## SmokinDodge (May 3, 2007)

Scooby your probably going to be the safest finding a Certified Forester (May go by other names in your area) to broker the deal for you. They will come in, mark the trees to be removed and broker the deal working on a percentage of the sale ensureing that you don't get taken. At least that's how my Forester explained it to me! :yoyo:


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## scooby (May 3, 2007)

i was thinkking. if i cant cut them down or any of that maby i can just haul them. i am sure i can get a 36' trailer to put them on and take them whereever. i did locate one person of intrest but have to contact him still.

i am wondering what kind of price i will be paid if i only haul them.


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## yukiginger (May 3, 2007)

*Hearing?*

Scooby, good on you for all the initiative and the confidence to tackle any project, but I really don't think you are listening to all the sound advice given.

MarkG


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## skidder (May 3, 2007)

*jack of all pro of non*

hey scooby if your up to task of logging do it .you will love it our hate it ether way just another experice good luck


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## sILlogger (May 3, 2007)

first off i gotta say this, i know the position that u were at. there was a time when i didn't have skidders to work with and loaders and trailers and all that stuff. i used to do it with a 4wheeler and a trailer when i was a kid, then a tractor. and i can tell u this, pulling and hauling those logs behind a suburban will be more trouble in the end. it sounds great till u tear off a bumper, blow a trans, or scatter an axle and then your profit is gone. Ive been cutting timber for several years now and im not any good at grading(atleast not compared to someone who is GOOD). so when it comes time to sell the grade, i lay the logs out and have them mark them. and i buck them and we go from there. im not trying to divert you from doing this project, its jsut that i don't wanna see a guy get screwed over his first go around or have something go wrong and end up in the hole. 

and go so you know if u due this job you may never want to do anything but log 
"once you get the sawdust in your veins you never get it out"


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## sILlogger (May 3, 2007)

BUT if u do cut the job, heck regardless of who cuts the job, take some pics


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## Husky137 (May 3, 2007)

Forest Steward said:


> One more overall issue with doing it yourself is how long it will take you. Right now with the weather like it is, your racing the clock. If you start cutting all these pines down and let them set there now that it's warming up, the wood is going to start staining on you from a fungal infection. Happens really quickly in pines especially. This is the worst time of the year to be logging high grade trees in this area. Any staining is going to effect it's grade/worth to the mill, and if it's bad enough, they'll just out right reject them. Just some more food for thought.



Good point FS. Some mills stop buying white pine all together between May and Septmeber because of blue stain and borers in stockpiled logs.


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## daemon2525 (May 3, 2007)

*Another angle....*

It looks to me like your new house is standing right there in front of you!!!

That would be cool to have them sawn into 2 x 4's and start buildin!


I'm sure there is a reason why that would not work, but I'll bet there is a lot
of nice 2x4s there.


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## 1953greg (May 3, 2007)

*scooby*



scooby said:


> it is over run with HUGH pines, at least 60ft high and 1-3ft accross. they are mostly straight. can i sell them for anything?


 short answer-----yes

"i can fall them myself, i can drag them to the road with my suburban (i think)" 
short answer-----if they are HUGH (huge) you wont. and if they are small enough that you can move them you wont have any surburban left. 

just for reference: a 2 ton come-a-long will pull more that your surburban wil most of the time

you asked for advice. most of us have been there done that


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## scooby (May 3, 2007)

ok today i spoke to someone who has run a skidder before.


believe it or not he said i should get a band saw and hack my own lumber, lol.

but i also found out the is a HUGE lumber mill a few miles from me. so lets see, cut the tree, weinch it onto a trailer. take it to them to grade and tell me where to buck.... does anyone think thats sounds like a good idea?


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## sILlogger (May 3, 2007)

scooby said:


> ok today i spoke to someone who has run a skidder before.
> 
> 
> believe it or not he said i should get a band saw and hack my own lumber, lol.
> ...



Nope, have them come over with their knuckeboom truck and load them after they come over and mark the trees and right you a check for them. your gonna be p*ssing in the wind pulling those trees behind a truck


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## Forest Steward (May 3, 2007)

scooby said:


> ok FS how mutch does the logger charge? i think i remember hearing 50%?



Like everything else, it depends. If they have to put roads in or anything extra like that, they might charge a bit more. But the basic rule of thumb I've always heard was 1/3 the total timber sale.

I'd also make sure that mill near you buys pine. Some mills are strictly hardwood mills.


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## redprospector (May 3, 2007)

I haul some logs with my one ton dodge, and gooseneck dump trailer. Believe me you aren't saving anything doing it that way. I only haul when the job is small enough the mill doesn't want to come out for the small amount of logs.
Total expence so far this year repairing the dodge, and trailer (all due to hauling logs) is about 2600.00. I wouldn't want to try it with a suburban.

Andy


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## John Ellison (May 3, 2007)

scooby said:


> a very conseritive estimate is 100 trees at 12" accross and 50ft tall.
> 
> The board footage value for the information you entered is:
> 36000 Board Feet
> ...



I think it would be more like 10,000 bf or less if they average like the one in the picture. Fall the ugliest looking one and yard it around for awhile with the suburban. Just to see how it goes. 
If you go to hauling some of them on a trailer, having enough brake is usually the biggest concern.


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## scooby (May 4, 2007)

i have heard you folks say drive train alot. what about putting a 10K winch on the truck and dragging them with that, a 10K winch and snatch block can do alot. 


hmmm 1/3.....

i will have to stop at the mill tomorrow. if they are open Saturday.


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## johncinco (May 4, 2007)

I've been where your at... for a DIY guy, its hard to swallow. It will be hard to find someone to buy the logs from you, no matter what you do. I have been told, and tend to believe, the person who makes the most money in the deal is the guy driving the truck, as long as he gets paid by the hour or mile! Joe Home Owner cant cut down, buck, and haul logs, then get paid, and have anything worthwhile to show for it other than a cleared lot. If you want them removed and end up with $ in your pocket, sell it standing and step back. If you want to try it yourself, your spinning your wheels. You'll have fun at least. 

Now if your gonna mill it up, your gonna have lots more fun!


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## gavin (May 5, 2007)

scooby said:


> i have heard you folks say drive train alot. what about putting a 10K winch on the truck and dragging them with that, a 10K winch and snatch block can do alot....



i think that would cost more than its worth. i'm pretty familiar with offroading and winches. they're meant to pull you out of trouble once in a while - if you use it too much, it will probably burn out. personally i think renting a skidder/cat/hoe would be better.

as for scaling the logs, around here the scaling course costs about $3500 and i've been told the average rate of people that pass is 25%. and preferred mill lengths depend on grade and species. on the flip side, the test is timed, so there is a small chance you could do it yourself. but i would definately recommend you get it done up right unless the market for pine firewood is high and the supply is low...not by any means trying to be rude, just trying to prevent frustration and lost value.

oh yeah, just to compare, my friends dad own's a hoe and a cat, and i've seen him rent a skidder instead of using his own iron to move a bunch of less than 20" dbh logs down to a landing for a self loader to pick up. i'm pretty sure it would be a better bet than using your SUV. he has also worked in logging for countless years, and is a very cabable logger, and he still hires fallers to cut his timber to get the most value from each log. cutting trees is fun, i love every minute of it, but when it comes to money i'd hire a pro. or at least fall them and hire a scaler.


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## clearance (May 5, 2007)

You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.


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## Cheese (May 5, 2007)

Good tech here.

The landowner sees the trees as money, his time as a tool and needs to convert to cover other projects.

The professionals see their time as money, the trees as work and would like to prevent others from wasting time and discrediting their craft.

There is no doubt in my mind a motivated, half skilled person with time could fell all those trees with only minor issue. Getting them out of the wood, to people who want them in a way they will take them without spending millions of dollars or hours is the rub.

Around here in Colorado, we have stands like this. What most of us do is selectively thin after getting advice from a forester, make 16" lengths and split them up. Carries real nice in a pick-up, no need for grading and $150 a cord is pretty easy.

Good luck.


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## scooby (May 5, 2007)

Cheese said:


> Good tech here.
> 
> The landowner sees the trees as money, his time as a tool and needs to convert to cover other projects.
> 
> ...



i have been thinking of making the rest of the wood firewood. but he pines i must sell.

a "forester" told me today that he gets $50-$100 per MBF, i say bull????....
he will be looking at my scelection soon thou, another mill is just arround the corner, and it says on the sign they buy standing hard and soft wood.


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