# Accepted ribbon colors to mark trees?



## s219

I need to prepare a 4 acre piece of land for some wood cutting operations. It will eventually become a homesite, but starting in January, we want to cut in a road and then cut some trees for firewood and to thin out and manage the forest. It's mainly pine with a variety of hardwoods mixed in the middle and a lot of hardwoods on the boundaries.

I can see a couple scenarios coming up, where I will need to mark keeper trees in one area, and then mark trees to cut in a different area. Is there a convention or accepted practice for ribbons and ribbon colors to mark both types of trees? Since there will be different road clearing and logging crews, plus me running around chasing firewood, it will make sense to use whatever standard the crews will recognize so that I don't need to keep explaining what's what. On top of that, the site is already flagged with some pink and orange ribbons from the site survey.

thanks,
219


----------



## slowp

Paint. Mark the *cut* trees in blue tree paint, or whatever color is used in that area. If you are worried about the wrong trees getting cut, put a blob/dot of paint below the stump level, in a crevice. Ground level is best for that mark. Then a higher mark at DBH so the trees can be seen. 

You can also mark leave trees. Just be aware that you will be staring at that paint color on your trees for a while. Ideally you'll want a butt mark at ground level on those trees too. 

On Forest Service land, Blue is for cutting and Orange is for leaving. 

Flagging can be moved, chewed off by deer and elk and whatever else, and falls off. Paint can also be duplicated, but is better to use for cut tree marking. If you have very well behaved fallers, you can get away with flagging (ribbon). Blue is easy to see. You could use that for cut and striped or something not already there for leave trees. Make sure you have the areas of leave and cut tree designation delineated with some kind of a boundary. Otherwise, confusion and mayhem could result. Make it simple. 

There is special tree marking paint available. Regular paint gets sucked into the bark. Tree paint will not do that. I bet Bailey's sells it.


----------



## Samlock

I agree. Plus tying the ribbons around the individual trees is slow. And you need to hug them too in the process.


----------



## slowp

Samlock said:


> I agree. Plus tying the ribbons around the individual trees is slow. And you need to hug them too in the process.



Then a relationship might occur and you won't want to see the trees cut!:msp_smile:


----------



## Samlock

slowp said:


> Then a relationship might occur and you won't want to see the trees cut!:msp_smile:



Exactly!


----------



## hammerlogging

yup, paint for the cut trees.

If your leave tree marking is, say, around the homesite, do some research on tree protection around clearing/grading construction, consider leaving a 10' radius buffer or so not to be cleared until its all said and done. If you wonder why, g look at a new development with homes in the "woods" and see how after 5 yrs about half of the leave trees are dead.


----------



## Slamm

Paint your leave trees low, as that tree paint can last several years and it will look dumb. Or just paint the trees to cut and tell them if its not painted to not cut it, but paint the cut trees will with a ring around it.

Put an orange ring about 2 feet high and one or more dots in the root swells, so you can check and see if they did cut a leave tree.

Paint the trees to cut all the way around, nothing more bothersome than a person that marks the tree with one little dot on the dumbest side of the tree so you have to walk all the way around it just to see if it should be cut.

There are shallow graves in some of the hills of Wisconsin of forest managers that don't mark trees very well, obviously they don't know how pissed off carrying a 660 down a steep hill just to find NO mark on the tree, you thought should be marked and then look back up, and see, they have marked several trees that you walked right past because they marked from the downhill side, when we had to cut from the uphill side, or vice versus, dumb.

Sam


----------



## 2dogs

Good advice, esp to use tree paint rather than spray paint and also to leave buffer trees that can be cut later. Make sure everything is in writing and that you require your contractor to alays carry the paperwork in his truck. I would also, along with the paint, use pink "DO NOT CUT" flagging on your leave trees. Most tree service employees here don't speak English so tell your contractor he is liable for the actions of all of his employees and that monetary penalties will be enforced if incidental damage occurs. If a leave tree is cut the contractor has to pay you, say $5,000.00 per tree. That should get his attention and make sure he tells his employees. In addition tell him that you need to be named as an insured on his policy. Usually that means you will have to pay an additional amount, around $150.00. Takes lots of pics from many different angles of the jobsite before anu work is started but after the trees are marked. Put all the images on one disc and give the contractor a copy. Oh and don't forget to get the neccesary permits.


----------



## s219

Thanks for all the input everyone -- very helpful. This is going to be a big project for me, and I figure it will take the next few weeks to plan.

Permits are interesting around here. It's a big production for land clearing over 2,500 square feet, to the point that I wouldn't be able to apply to do it myself without getting state trained for responsible land disturbance certification. However, if done as part of a building permit, then clearing is OK with no additional permit. Permits are also not needed if work is done as part of timbering operation under 10,000 square feet, or for firewood or diseased-tree removal. So, being someone who likes to find the gray area in the rules, I plan to create a logging road and timber harvest area under 10,000 square feet and use that to access firewood and diseased trees for forest management. If the logging road happens to make a good driveway in the future that would just be a coincidence of course...

My plan for the trees I want to keep is to make sure no heavy equipment disturbs the ground within canopy radius. Any clearing inside that range would be by saw only. The lot has several wetlands protection buffers that you can clear right up to, but running equipment across tree roots outside the buffer is a no-no, so care is needed there also.

If there weren't issues with stump disposal, I would get a 310 backhoe up there myself, dig the stumps on one side, and then push them over and pluck out (this seems to work well on small pine stumps). But my problem is what to do with the stumps afterwards. There really won't be a place to bury or pile them within the land, so they will definitely need to get hauled off. Once I get into the logistics of moving stumps around and loading them into a hauler, combined with timber removal and sales, suddenly it makes more sense to hire a contractor for the big stuff. I have seen these guys come in and take care of business in 1-2 days.  They are also state certified for land disturbance, and won't have to dance around the rules as much as I would. They just need to be on a short leash, since they tend to cut/clear more than agreed upon from what people have told me, and aren't real careful about protecting desirable trees nearby.

So, my initial plan is to mark all the trees in the path of the logging road with tape (will be on the order of 50-60 trees). I plan to cut and carry desirable firewood trees myself, leaving high stumps. Then the crew will come in to clear the logging road of pines (to be sold for pulp) and also take care of my stumps. I hope to mark the trees in the next week or so, then get a couple contractors to bid on the job.


----------



## madhatte

Slamm said:


> Paint the trees to cut all the way around, nothing more bothersome than a person that marks the tree with one little dot on the dumbest side of the tree so you have to walk all the way around it just to see if it should be cut.



Oh, man, you would not believe the #####ing and wailing we got from the Peanut Gallery when we banned Zorro-striping in favor of 360 degree rings. Loggers don't miss 'em that way, though. Totally worth it.


----------



## Dalmatian90

When I've seen trees here marked, it's a blue slash up high, and a blue blob at ground level. Count trees as marked, and count up stumps after the cut (which is why you mark low).

If after the logger is done if there's more stumps with blue dots then the forester had written down before cutting started, go grab some opcorn: because the day's entertainment is starting.

Yellow seems to be the favored property boundary color, though I can only recall seeing that on State Forests and other public lands. I know other states use other colors.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> Oh, man, you would not believe the #####ing and wailing we got from the Peanut Gallery when we banned Zorro-striping in favor of 360 degree rings. Loggers don't miss 'em that way, though. Totally worth it.



However, on steep ground, and I'm talking steeeeep out here, it is ok to slap paint on the downhill side and dot the uphill. The fallers will be working their way up so no need, except for the convenience of the person marking skyline corridors, ahem...to paint all the way around the tree. A good solid but and dbh mark on the downhill side is a good thing. You also need to mark the side so you who are marking can follow your line back while marking. Tracer paint, which is not available to the general public, is spendy stuff. 

Whilst marking the corridors, I would work up hill and then come down another corridor painting away.

The tree butt mark, is the most important mark here. You want to get it as low as you can, and have it in a crevice, not on a swelled part, because anything sticking out is a candidate for getting rubbed. Scars and hollow spots are good places to spray paint into. Think of what will survive after yarding. 

The contracts here state that maximum stump height is 12 inches. It also states that trees will be cut above the stump mark. That latter part sometimes needs to be pointed out to buncher and processor operators. There are some of them that love to make stumps so low that you can slide right over them. 

There's more to it than you would think.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

What you may want to do first is develop a land management plan. The plan covers what will be done now to preserver and protect the value of the land and timer resource and any area that is sensitive to damage,like water ways and weak soils,the plan can also cover future structure locations and access points to remove timber or other material. Take the time and photograph before and during each phase of work. If you do a plan you can assign a a paint scheme for the land (Like blue for removal). With a plan when you hire contractors they can understand what your land goals are.Preplanned the land use will make it a lot easier to figure out what stage of work needs done first. I use yellow for limbing and red for removal on the tree farm. The color you use should be the same a your state uses to avoid confusion,check with the local office of the state forester. A plan you develop can be used by the future generations of your family to follow your wishes for the land.


----------



## StevenBiars

If you need an erosion management plan, I'm a geologist by trade, and will gladly help (no cost). I run a small company in Ohio (GeoLogic), and thus I'm always looking for opportunities to expand my portfolio. Besides, we're all brothers here at the forum. If you need a hand, just drop me a line.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

I do plans for people who have to meet the state law in Oregon that requires land owners to make their land "FIREWISE".


----------



## Slamm

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I do plans for people who have to meet the state law in Oregon that requires land owners to make their land "FIREWISE".



Oh for the love of god, you do not. After looking at anything you have shown in a video or written, nobody with any sense would have you "do plans" for anything, except how to dig yourself into a hole of BS.

Here is a fire plan from you,"Go pick up the sticks in your yard and rake your leaves.", LOL.

Will it ever end,

Sam


----------



## Gologit

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I do plans for people who have to meet the state law in Oregon that requires land owners to make their land "FIREWISE".



http://www.arboristsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3266244


----------



## floyd

Correct me if I am wrong... the marking crew is paid by the hour.

So, let us assume I am correct. Yet they whined if it took longer to mark a tree?

Different story if piecework or they are salarymen.


----------



## slowp

floyd said:


> Correct me if I am wrong... the marking crew is paid by the hour.
> 
> So, let us assume I am correct. Yet they whined if it took longer to mark a tree?
> 
> Different story if piecework or they are salarymen.



Nope, it is whining because it takes more paint, which is carried on one's back. Before the paint accountability got so strict, we had paint packed in by pack mule and stashed. The roads are often not built or opened up when marking. Yeah, I know, a saw is heavier. Everybody I know who marked timber here has back problems, even those who are not whiners. 

Here, on the westside, we'd load up those terribly unergonomic green canvas backpacks. I'd have to take it off and throw it over any big logs that I needed to get over. I was lucky, it was not my usual job. I production marked on the eastside, where you stuffed as many quarts in your vest, plus water, plus lunch. Less paint, but more walking. We never used aerosol. We used quarts. The vest got lighter as the day went on, but it was heavy in the morning, and you can't stash your paint because you are covering a lot of ground. 

The loggers are now marking their own units. One guy here contracts out. He also put on a training session for unemployed people, but nobody made it through the whole day. It was too much work. 

A hint: Always try to run your line of painting up and down. That way you are actually working back and forth on the sidehill, instead of up and down. Kind of like cutting. 

Those marks you guys come across on little trees? They're so we can keep track of where we've been if there aren't any big trees handy that are marked. Just like falling, each person has a strip, and you have to tie in to that strip and be able to follow the person marking ahead of you. Or your own strip. 

If you use quarts and a paint gun, you take good care of that gun and you don't share it. Sound familiar??:smile2:


----------



## Joe46

Gologit said:


> http://www.arboristsite.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3266244



Glad you kept that handy. You'll probably need it at least once a week. Two weeks tops.:msp_thumbup:


----------



## Gologit

Joe46 said:


> Glad you kept that handy. You'll probably need it at least once a week. Two weeks tops.:msp_thumbup:



Thanks, Joe. If I'm not around you guys (and gals) are free to use it any time you want. The original post is on page 6 in the Logging thread that HBRN started.


----------



## Hank Chinaski

Gologit said:


> Thanks, Joe. If I'm not around you guys (and gals) are free to use it any time you want. The original post is on page 6 in the Logging thread that HBRN started.




I sigged it ... much simpler that way


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

You do not believe me then read it:
Oregon Department of Forestry Oregon Forestland-Urban Interface Fire Protection Act
Your required by law to meet the firewise standards in wildland interface housing zones.


----------



## Samlock

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> I do plans for people who have to meet the state law in Oregon that requires land owners to make their land "FIREWISE".



I am the Lizard King,
I can do anything.


----------



## slowp

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> You do not believe me then read it:
> Oregon Department of Forestry Oregon Forestland-Urban Interface Fire Protection Act
> Your required by law to meet the firewise standards in wildland interface housing zones.



And it ain't rocket science. Metal roofs, a bit of thinning, and locating firewood a bit away from the house.
One of those DUH things.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

Slowp you know nothing about firewise planning or implication. The land around the home is only a small part of the firewise law. The land around a home can make or break proper home design.
[video=youtube;t6jV-gM9EwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6jV-gM9EwQ&feature=related[/video]


[video=youtube;HmVFOGcGvUc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmVFOGcGvUc&feature=related[/video]


[video=youtube;p0iR8o54hDU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0iR8o54hDU&feature=relmfu[/video]


----------



## RandyMac

check yer boots, something foul got tracked in here


----------



## slowp

I didn't look at your videos. Fire safing (is that a word?) homes is a no brainer procedure. Anybody with a lick of sense knows to thin, prune, and all the other wonderful things. We don't need no stinkin' videos or charts or pictures. And I beg to differ, one should thin the trees around one's house if they are a threat. 

Like I said, it is a DUH thing.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

slowp said:


> I didn't look at your videos. Fire safing (is that a word?) homes is a no brainer procedure. Anybody with a lick of sense knows to thin, prune, and all the other wonderful things. We don't need no stinkin' videos or charts or pictures. And I beg to differ, one should thin the trees around one's house if they are a threat.
> 
> Like I said, it is a DUH thing.


It is a attitude like this that causes peoples home to burn. Firewise is a real world program. If your unwilling to do your part to then when your home burns I have only one thing to say,ignorance is costly.

Home - Firewise


----------



## slowp

So attitude causes forest fires? 

So much for the fuel, heat and oxygen triangle. Whoda thunk it? :check:


----------



## Hank Chinaski

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> It is a attitude like this that causes peoples home to burn. Firewise is a real world program. If your unwilling to do your part to then when your home burns I have only one thing to say,ignorance is costly.
> 
> Home - Firewise



you found yet another "catch phrase" for this weeks expert-ism... 

lets see your Fire Wise accreditation. It's given to all of their teachers, inspectors and I'm sure they do it for the "planners" also...

post up or shut up. 




want to know what I thinks costly? anyone taking ANY of your advise as coming from someone who knows something about ANYthing...


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

[video=youtube;Hj_S1A6rqXU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj_S1A6rqXU&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;6cR9sf-7Ibg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cR9sf-7Ibg&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;Dd1PwIoH7dg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd1PwIoH7dg&feature=relmfu[/video]


----------



## Dalmatian90

Firewise is common sense for folks who never had to think about fires before.

Same "common sense needs to be taught" I saw with the '08 Ice Storm in Massachusetts. It was funny in a pathetic way the number of folks complaining about losing food in the fridge (um, it's cold outside), and at the same time the number of folks who had pipes freeze simply because they didn't know to open the drains on the water system. I probably wouldn't have known how to drain the system if I hadn't been here one year when my grandfather was re-opening the cottage and putting back the little vent covers and closing the valves in the basement.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

Dalmatian90 said:


> Firewise is common sense for folks who never had to think about fires before.
> 
> Same "common sense needs to be taught" I saw with the '08 Ice Storm in Massachusetts. It was funny in a pathetic way the number of folks complaining about losing food in the fridge (um, it's cold outside), and at the same time the number of folks who had pipes freeze simply because they didn't know to open the drains on the water system. I probably wouldn't have known how to drain the system if I hadn't been here one year when my grandfather was re-opening the cottage and putting back the little vent covers and closing the valves in the basement.



Humans need training for simple things sometimes. Firewise practices are like having insurance on your house. Planning for a disaster is smart thinking. Wild fire is no joke,my home town darn near burned in the B&B fire back in 2003. The ranch my old man manages was the the lucky one are neighbors place lost a lot of high dollar timber.


----------



## Hank Chinaski

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Humans need training for simple things sometimes. Firewise practices are like having insurance on your house. Planning for a disaster is smart thinking. Wild fire is no joke,my home town darn near burned in the B&B fire back in 2003. The ranch my old man manages was the the lucky one are neighbors place lost a lot of high dollar timber.



waiting on pics of your certs, not more youtube cut/paste... 

put up, or shut up.


----------



## HILLBILLYREDNEC

Hank Chinaski said:


> waiting on pics of your certs, not more youtube cut/paste...
> 
> put up, or shut up.



Hank get on your bromtail and leave me out of personal issues!


----------



## Gologit

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Hank get on your bromtail and leave me out of personal issues!



HBRN, are you off your meds again?


----------



## paccity

screw it. cut a 1/4 mile strip around your concrete house. ..... don't forget to flag off the safe zone.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> If you use quarts and a paint gun, you take good care of that gun and you don't share it. Sound familiar??:smile2:



My paint gun is modded. I ground off the lower finger-hold on a steel handle, and hung the longer trigger from the plastic kind. Means less tired hand at the end of the day. I don't share that thing at all.


----------



## Hank Chinaski

HILLBILLYREDNEC said:


> Hank get on your bromtail and leave me out of personal issues!



my personal issues?

you being a liar are somehow my personal issues?

how's that work?



you spout ####, I ask for proof, you duck and change the subject. You are a L I A R. Your word is #### and your advise is worse.


----------



## slowp

madhatte said:


> My paint gun is modded. I ground off the lower finger-hold on a steel handle, and hung the longer trigger from the plastic kind. Means less tired hand at the end of the day. I don't share that thing at all.



I prefer the Tree Coder paint guns. Actually, I think they are really ink guns. To use paint, you have to do a delicate mod. You take something with a point, and pound out the screen on the bottom. Then they'll work fine in paint, and clog up less than a Nelson. They chew right through most of it. The forty million year old chunky paint that's been sitting in a van box might cause a bit of a clog....

They have fewer parts and a non mechanical person like me, can take them apart, fix stuff and put them back together without any "spare" parts left over. They last.


----------



## madhatte

Tried one of those a couple of years ago. Didn't think to pulverize the screen. Might need re-visited.


----------



## slowp

Yes. It is worthless if the screen is left intact.


----------



## madhatte

Duly noted.


----------



## 2dogs

I was off the grid this past weekend backpacking and missed HBRN's boilover and banning. Gary sent me a PM advising me of AS's loss. I wonder if my red dot we be rescinded?


----------



## RandyMac

2dogs said:


> I was off the grid this past weekend backpacking and missed HBRN's boilover and banning. Gary sent me a PM advising me of AS's loss. I wonder if my red dot we be rescinded?



I think I more than made up for that wee red dot.


----------



## Gologit

2dogs said:


> I was off the grid this past weekend backpacking and missed HBRN's boilover and banning. Gary sent me a PM advising me of AS's loss. I wonder if my red dot we be rescinded?



Nope...the little red dot is like a battle scar. Wear it with pride...and consider the source.:msp_biggrin:


----------



## Joe46

In a sense I actually feel a little bit of pity for the dude. This nonsense of his didn't just start when he joined AS. It probably goes back many years. It should have been addressed when he was a kid. I think if nobody responds to anything he post just maybe he'll go away for good. The ban won't last forever will it?


----------



## 2dogs

RandyMac said:


> I think I more than made up for that wee red dot.



Oops I should have been more specific. I meant the red dot I received as an infraction along with the threat of being banned. I ripped HBRN back in May just a wee bit too, 15 yards and a warning!


----------



## Gologit

Joe46 said:


> In a sense I actually feel a little bit of pity for the dude. This nonsense of his didn't just start when he joined AS. It probably goes back many years. It should have been addressed when he was a kid. I think if nobody responds to anything he post just maybe he'll go away for good. The ban won't last forever will it?



From what I understand the ban is permanent this time.

He'll probably come back with a different user name. I think he was Superfire, or something like that, before he started posting as HBRN. If he shows up again he won't be hard to spot.

I agree...he has some serious problems. And I agree that they should have been addressed at an earlier age. Maybe they were and it just didn't take. But that doesn't mean that his foolishness has to be condoned by the rest of the AS tribe.

Most of us on here know, to one extent or another, what we're doing when we go to the woods. We knew his methods and his advice were bad. Some of the newbies wouldn't know that, however,and blindly following his advice could get them hurt. Or worse.

It was time for him to go.


----------



## madhatte

Gologit said:


> From what I understand the ban is permanent this time.



Yep, he got both barrels. That username is officially out of commission.


----------



## Joe46

Won't disagree that most of his advise needed to come with a warning!


----------



## Samlock

I have ran across a few persons before in the real life, who have given a false impression of themselves as fallers/tree workers, and they have made me wonder what on earth might have been their motives to do so. Pretending to be the low-rank, broke, uneducated, probably dead or crippled at an young age blue collar riff raff - what's the point? I mean, posing a doctor, lawyer, pilot, banker, test driver, whatever, it might be even profitable, at least has some prestige in it. That makes me sense. Besides there is plenty of information to be found in the web about those trades - to get the facts right on line. When it comes to the bush, the only way to get the facts right is the hard way.

I wonder if the dustmen meet often the characters saying - "Hey, I've done that too as a pro, you know. And that's not the way to empty a bin right."


----------



## dave k

I can't believe I missed the end of HBRN ! We here adopt British Standards guidelines and rules when dealing with tree retention on site although most developers went with the " make sure it will stand long enogh for us to get out of here" method ! Along with a bust country we now have loads of dead / diying trees on half finished developments.


----------



## Slamm

Samlock said:


> I have ran across a few persons before in the real life, who have given a false impression of themselves as fallers/tree workers, and they have made me wonder what on earth might have been their motives to do so. Pretending to be the low-rank, broke, uneducated, probably dead or crippled at an young age blue collar riff raff - what's the point? I mean, posing a doctor, lawyer, pilot, banker, test driver, whatever, it might be even profitable, at least has some prestige in it. That makes me sense. Besides there is plenty of information to be found in the web about those trades - to get the facts right on line. When it comes to the bush, the only way to get the facts right is the hard way.
> 
> I wonder if the dustmen meet often the characters saying - "Hey, I've done that too as a pro, you know. And that's not the way to empty a bin right."



Courage is a hard thing to come across, show, learn, develop and for some to see or observe or witness, that said, I think a lot of these types that want to fake something they are not, usually subconsciously pick a career or hobby choice that reflects a courageous or "manly" appearance. This is or has been primarily observed to be done by those that lack their own genetic courage and/or it certainly wasn't developed to any degree by their father or surroundings, or in short a coward, therefore they try to "make up for it" by the telling of BS or coming off as more than what they are. Ideally, they hope to not come across others that know the difference between the real thing and the fake. Those that get good at playing this game, likely want to test their "craft of BS" against other unsuspecting folks and see how far or what they can get away with. 

As is/was observed with HBRN in this setting/forum, his crap got called out basically everytime, as this is a hard audiance to spread BS to about logging and other chainsaw related practices, do to the level of real people that actually do this stuff for a living or trade. It was quite apparent he got his kicks off of it. It was also quite apparent he was attempting to make up for something that was lacking either genetically or in the raising of him, I speculate to a degree it was courage. He attempted the logger theme and then it was the firefighter with a saw theme, then he tries the "thinker" theme, using his brain over his back (because its injured) theme.

That said, little quarter is give in the "hard trades", after you turn 18 years old, as at that point you are an adult and you should know right from wrong and overtime, the smart, learn their limitations, as has been coined, "A man has to know his limitations." and I might add, "and be realistic about those limitations". Basically, don't BS yourself, about yourself, and you will not likely find it necessary to BS others. Some people are never taught this, due to the weak society that we live in, nobody calls a bluff and conversely few ever have to prove their mettle (Mettle = A person's ability to cope well with difficulties or to face a demanding situation in a spirited and resilient way). 

As was easily noted everytime HBRN was asked for personal knowledge or experience there was an immediate failure to produce, and what was produced (videos) proved that BS had been spewed, poor tools in use, lack of handling skills and lack of knowledge and experience were all observed, easily.

My reasons for such writings is I have 15 years in the bull riding business and every week for years, I observed quite possibly the most premium attempts at BS'ing and Con'ing about courage or manlyness, that was then minutes later "Called out", without fail, to the point of some uncontrollably shaking or whizzing themselves or thowing-up due to lack of genetics or upbringing or both to cope with what is involved or required in such a sport, which involves little by way of smarts, yet quite a lot by way of courage and/or in many cases, just shear stupidity, but it is most always given the title of courage and manlyness, however inaccurate it can be at times. Many people like to study different things in life, that others will simply look past, I have been known to look past some key ingredients found in a successful human, but I have always been a student of courage, as it truly does separate the men from the boys in many cases, and its hard to BS it, to those that know what it is, and it isn't ever judged by words, but by action, and thus it appears to me to be one of the easiest things to test for, and one of the hardest things to BS or lie about if you don't have it, and conversely, to hide if you do, truly have it.

Saying that to say this, in bull riding, after awhile it becomes very easy to see the pattern, there are slight variations to the pattern, but usually you can spot the individual/s from a mile away, without them even saying a word, and if they opened their mouth, it only removes all doubt, if you see them begin to "perform" or actually go through with it physically, it only fulfills the prophecy with 99% accuracy the other 1% was chalked up to shear, dumb luck.

The faking to be a doctor or lawyer or wise businessman certainly happens, but it usually happens by someone who is more likely a "thinker", and is more conscious and thought out, what is lacking there is much less likely to involve the courage ingredient and in some cases might actually be more sinister or striving to achieve more materialwise, than something like the want of respect due to courage found. Usually there is a clearer goal in mind for the "thinking" BS'er.

It has been my observation in logging or the cutting of trees "en mass", it requires at times loads of smarts and loads of courage and many times a calculation of both, and in its truest form, "dumb luck" does NOT get you very far in either production or in staying alive or injury free when attempting to perform at a profitable speed or production level, which is not to say, you won't try something stupid every now and then, after you have calculated your odds and figured your skills will pull you through, so you push on. Therefore it appears that on many levels the chainsaw trades or logging type of skills, are somewhat hard to BS to any successful degree, as there are so many different ways to observe the lack of the skills, knowledge or experience.

Just a thought, LOL.

Sam


----------



## slowp

Weealll, he had me worried that I had missed the changing of the fire triangle into more of a line.:msp_biggrin:

I think I will miss him. He was fun to deal with, although he seemed to be getting more upset at the end.


----------



## madhatte

slowp said:


> he seemed to be getting more upset at the end.



That's what happens when those types go off their meds.


----------



## RandyMac

Meds? Must be time for a shot, tryin' out Maker's Mark, 'bout sustained an injury getting the top off.


----------



## madhatte

I hear ya. That wax is tricky stuff.


----------



## Meadow Beaver

2dogs said:


> I was off the grid this past weekend backpacking and missed HBRN's boilover and banning. Gary sent me a PM advising me of AS's loss. I wonder if my red dot we be rescinded?



He "red dotted" me so I got rid of him, nobody liked him, and we didn't lose any vast sea of knowledge.


----------



## 2dogs

Meadow Beaver said:


> He "red dotted" me so I got rid of him, nobody liked him, and we didn't lose any vast sea of knowledge.



AS infract... Never mind.


----------



## Samlock

Slamm said:


> Courage is a hard thing to come across, show, learn, develop and for some to see or observe or witness, that said, I think a lot of these types that want to fake something they are not, usually subconsciously pick a career or hobby choice that reflects a courageous or "manly" appearance. This is or has been primarily observed to be done by those that lack their own genetic courage and/or it certainly wasn't developed to any degree by their father or surroundings, or in short a coward, therefore they try to "make up for it" by the telling of BS or coming off as more than what they are. Ideally, they hope to not come across others that know the difference between the real thing and the fake. Those that get good at playing this game, likely want to test their "craft of BS" against other unsuspecting folks and see how far or what they can get away with.
> 
> As is/was observed with HBRN in this setting/forum, his crap got called out basically everytime, as this is a hard audiance to spread BS to about logging and other chainsaw related practices, do to the level of real people that actually do this stuff for a living or trade. It was quite apparent he got his kicks off of it. It was also quite apparent he was attempting to make up for something that was lacking either genetically or in the raising of him, I speculate to a degree it was courage. He attempted the logger theme and then it was the firefighter with a saw theme, then he tries the "thinker" theme, using his brain over his back (because its injured) theme.
> 
> That said, little quarter is give in the "hard trades", after you turn 18 years old, as at that point you are an adult and you should know right from wrong and overtime, the smart, learn their limitations, as has been coined, "A man has to know his limitations." and I might add, "and be realistic about those limitations". Basically, don't BS yourself, about yourself, and you will not likely find it necessary to BS others. Some people are never taught this, due to the weak society that we live in, nobody calls a bluff and conversely few ever have to prove their mettle (Mettle = A person's ability to cope well with difficulties or to face a demanding situation in a spirited and resilient way).
> 
> As was easily noted everytime HBRN was asked for personal knowledge or experience there was an immediate failure to produce, and what was produced (videos) proved that BS had been spewed, poor tools in use, lack of handling skills and lack of knowledge and experience were all observed, easily.
> 
> My reasons for such writings is I have 15 years in the bull riding business and every week for years, I observed quite possibly the most premium attempts at BS'ing and Con'ing about courage or manlyness, that was then minutes later "Called out", without fail, to the point of some uncontrollably shaking or whizzing themselves or thowing-up due to lack of genetics or upbringing or both to cope with what is involved or required in such a sport, which involves little by way of smarts, yet quite a lot by way of courage and/or in many cases, just shear stupidity, but it is most always given the title of courage and manlyness, however inaccurate it can be at times. Many people like to study different things in life, that others will simply look past, I have been known to look past some key ingredients found in a successful human, but I have always been a student of courage, as it truly does separate the men from the boys in many cases, and its hard to BS it, to those that know what it is, and it isn't ever judged by words, but by action, and thus it appears to me to be one of the easiest things to test for, and one of the hardest things to BS or lie about if you don't have it, and conversely, to hide if you do, truly have it.
> 
> Saying that to say this, in bull riding, after awhile it becomes very easy to see the pattern, there are slight variations to the pattern, but usually you can spot the individual/s from a mile away, without them even saying a word, and if they opened their mouth, it only removes all doubt, if you see them begin to "perform" or actually go through with it physically, it only fulfills the prophecy with 99% accuracy the other 1% was chalked up to shear, dumb luck.
> 
> The faking to be a doctor or lawyer or wise businessman certainly happens, but it usually happens by someone who is more likely a "thinker", and is more conscious and thought out, what is lacking there is much less likely to involve the courage ingredient and in some cases might actually be more sinister or striving to achieve more materialwise, than something like the want of respect due to courage found. Usually there is a clearer goal in mind for the "thinking" BS'er.
> 
> It has been my observation in logging or the cutting of trees "en mass", it requires at times loads of smarts and loads of courage and many times a calculation of both, and in its truest form, "dumb luck" does NOT get you very far in either production or in staying alive or injury free when attempting to perform at a profitable speed or production level, which is not to say, you won't try something stupid every now and then, after you have calculated your odds and figured your skills will pull you through, so you push on. Therefore it appears that on many levels the chainsaw trades or logging type of skills, are somewhat hard to BS to any successful degree, as there are so many different ways to observe the lack of the skills, knowledge or experience.
> 
> Just a thought, LOL.
> 
> Sam



Hey Sam, it appears you're a bit thinker kind of package as well! No fence, I mean I wouldn't ride a bull for any price. I'm cautious with the cows too and never let them sneak behind my back.

I'm not sure if there's much left of a faller's courage or manhood either after a crapola morning, after scared to death for every single fall and crawling on all four in a ditch full of pig's chit. But again, one must live personally through that morning to gain the knowledge.

Sam


----------



## Slamm

Samlock said:


> Hey Sam, it appears you're a bit thinker kind of package as well! No fence, I mean I wouldn't ride a bull for any price. I'm cautious with the cows too and never let them sneak behind my back.
> 
> I'm not sure if there's much left of a faller's courage or manhood either after a crapola morning, after scared to death for every single fall and crawling on all four in a ditch full of pig's chit. But again, one must live personally through that morning to gain the knowledge.
> 
> Sam



Your morning sounds more like a "Exercise in Character Building", LOL.

Sam


----------

