# Contracts are optional.



## lxt (Jun 5, 2010)

well I got jammed on tueday!! we built a versa lok wall for a customer last august & in december a portion of the wall "just fell over" the customers during the install had hit the wall on a handfull of occasions, but heres the kicker:

we arrive & demo/prep the site & are on our 3rd day before we start to dig & build....to our surprise when we start to dig we run into a drain pipe 4" round at 4-5" below surface.

work is stopped, home owner addressed & now they cant afford to remove/move the pipe nor can they afford additional build material so that the wall can be built according to mfg recommended practice.....SO...

the home owners tell me to build the wall & how/what they want done....I re-write the work authorization they sign it & I build the wall!!

I was gonna walk away...but then Im thinking from a legal standpoint...their yard is in shambles, driveway is in-accessible, the husband is on SSI & their 80+ year old mother in law/mom lives there. Quit & walk away in the middle of the project could prove costly & the liability from leaving their property in that state scared the hell outta me!!!

It should be known that no permit was required, no inspection required & that the TWP they lived in there was no code, law, ordinance or other that stated how a wall under 48" must be built...so I complied with the request of the homeowner/employer.

Judge ruled in their favor even after they stated they liked the wall, hit the wall with cars, was happy when I finished & most importantly even though they signed the work authorization stating the build method of the wall....not only did the judge rule in their favor but awarded them 2 x the bid amount!

it was clear from the first objection i had that the judge said over ruled & when I said your honor I havent stated what im objecting to & she said "it doest matter" that I knew I was jammed!!

so on the 8th I go see my Atty & appeal this ridiculous decision! any one ever been told that the contract/work authorization really doest matter? wait till I tell my Atty....hey that work Authorization I paid you to write up for me....judge said it didnt matter!! LOL...BTW...this was a magistrate for district court & a woman....not that the woman part matters but I was going against the lady home owner.....woman stick together!

Ill keep ya informed on what happens but I thought: what the hell, the home owner can tell you: build this, tear that down, I want this color, this size, ooops no re do this & that, get off my property, etc.. but when it comes down to it & in this situation "I should of walked away & not complied with the home owners request" as stated by the judge! .......then I would be defending my self for breach of contract, intentional property damage & been liable for any injuries from such for leaving an un safe work site!!

ok.....................I vented!!



LXT.....................


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## PineFever (Jun 5, 2010)

You oughta be thankful you didn't go to court here in Ca.
Even Contractors who do the Job Right, professionally, and on time always get reamed by some homeowner looking to make a buck. It's very sad.
Good Luck on your appeal.


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## RVALUE (Jun 5, 2010)

I missed a point, did they not pay?


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## treemandan (Jun 5, 2010)

What in the #### are you talking about? Don't bother answering, I think I get it. Like I said long ago " there is validity in your statements" and although you thought I was nuts I believe you. I believe you did better than most and was/are honest and forthright in your work. I could tell.
Anyway that sucks, it hurts me too. 
I have never gotten anyone to sign a proposal I have ever written. I figure it won't mean a dam thing if I have to use it and I rely soley on my word and their's. Sure, I write down what I am going to do for what price and sure its a little hairy but what isn't?
I ran into John Hoadley the other day at the arbor store. He said he found a way to get paid on those jobs that the people don't want to pay. He found a lawyer to buy his signed proposal for face value from him and then the lawyer does what he needs to to get his money. John has been in business for 30 years and has probably seen more than both of us put together. I could be wrong but if you have seen your brother's legs pulled into a Morbark then you are right on par with John. Me? I don't give a #### and most likey never did. Don't pay me, I dare ya, in fact I dare everytime I write an unsigned proposal. Yes, I am in therapy.
I am sure you did the very best for these people ( and the old ones will try to get ya for sure) and am sorry to hear about this.It must have cost you a furtune. Can you go get your bricks?


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## treemandan (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes, one reason I don't make them sign is because then I would be liable to the contract just as well... whatever that means.


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## mckeetree (Jun 5, 2010)

treemandan said:


> ( and the old ones will try to get ya for sure)



Yeah, most of the time they will.


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## treemandan (Jun 6, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Yeah, most of the time they will.



When you get burned by the old folks you are really putting yourself out for it can really hurt. Same goes for anybody in that respect. 
I have some steady older clients, they see my machines break down when I am clearing the snow, they see the sweat pouring off my face when I pull the tree off their house, they hear me curse and they see my plight. That is my signed contract. 
These guys who go around bragging " I got signed contracts for 6 months"? Hell, I just wonder. Signed contract my ass. Who did you sign with? The Devil?


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## Rudedog (Jun 6, 2010)

PineFever said:


> You oughta be thankful you didn't go to court here in Ca.
> Even Contractors who do the Job Right, professionally, and on time always get reamed by some homeowner looking to make a buck. It's very sad.
> Good Luck on your appeal.



Maryland is the same way. I had a buddy who owned a home improvement business. Did additions and decks. He finally refused to do any work for people from India. They wanted everything for nothing and then would file complaints and sue when the job was completed.


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## treemandan (Jun 6, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> Maryland is the same way. I had a buddy who owned a home improvement business. Did additions and decks. He finally refused to do any work for people from India. They wanted everything for nothing and then would file complaints and sue when the job was completed.



Well, uhm, that's a given.
Last time I gave a unsigned proposal to have 4 small yew bushes removed, I wrote it for something like 1600. I was there 3 minutes, spoke about 4 words.


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## TimberMcPherson (Jun 6, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> Maryland is the same way. I had a buddy who owned a home improvement business. Did additions and decks. He finally refused to do any work for people from India. They wanted everything for nothing and then would file complaints and sue when the job was completed.



Yeah the india problem hits me all to often to, I think I could write a pretty good booklet on it. But I still look at there jobs and treat it like they are like any client. But so so so often, they are trouble.


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## RVALUE (Jun 6, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Yeah the india problem hits me all to often to, I think I could write a pretty good booklet on it. But I still look at there jobs and treat it like they are like any client. But so so so often, they are trouble.




Trade you, sight unseen.


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## RVALUE (Jun 6, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Yeah the india problem hits me all to often to, I think I could write a pretty good booklet on it. But I still look at there jobs and treat it like they are like any client. But so so so often, they are trouble.



Mine wouldn't be a booklet, but a series. Then the tree huggers would protest outside, for wasting so much paper.


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## RVALUE (Jun 6, 2010)

PS some of mine are Paikistani. I'll bet you could cross reference to the religion and find a common thread.

PSS Its even some _americans_. One peoples I haven't had problems with are Australians.


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## Rudedog (Jun 6, 2010)

RVALUE said:


> PS some of mine are Paikistani. I'll bet you could cross reference to the religion and find a common thread.



Actually they are related by region. Indians are predominately Hindi and the Pakistanis are the people from India that were Muslim and driven out of the country by that great peace lover Ghandi. They are hard bargainers which is a cliche for they will screw anybody for a buck.


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## Toddppm (Jun 6, 2010)

How did a 4" drain pipe stop a whole project?


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 6, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Yes, one reason I don't make them sign is because then I would be liable to the contract just as well... whatever that means.



Thats a good point Dan that contract binds both parties involved , and if I decide I don't wanna do work for your :censored:ing arse than we part ways , and I don't take deposits either so If you nag me more than twice were done that way too..Oh I saved up that 8 grand and if your serious I'll come get that truck ...


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## treemandan (Jun 6, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Thats a good point Dan that contract binds both parties involved , and if I decide I don't wanna do work for your :censored:ing arse than we part ways , and I don't take deposits either so If you nag me more than twice were done that way too..Oh I saved up that 8 grand and if your serious I'll come get that truck ...



Yeah, I guess if you want to get all " lawsuit" with this tree work bullcrap then I am just gonna go home, get drunk and log onto Arboristsite.com.
But , hey, if you have the means to go after big contracts help yerself. I just work for the commoner and that is tough enough. Most people are very understanding and happy with me and I am thankful for that.


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## lxt (Jun 7, 2010)

RVALUE said:


> I missed a point, did they not pay?




Yes they paid & were happy!! they even told this to the judge!

The 4" drain pipe ran the full length of the driveway 100ft worth, this main line had 3 branch offs going to house & garage downspouts, this drain line was directly under where the homeowners wanted the vers lok wall to be built.

I was not informed of the line & to remove it/move it was not an option cause the home owners couldnt afford to do that, as a matter of fact the home owners couldnt afford any of my suggested build methods which were right outta the mfg`s guidlines, they got in over their heads without the ability to take care of any unforeseen problems!!

I thought about walking away...BUT, I was in the middle of the job!!!! if these homeowners are of the mind to sue me for what they asked/told me to do....can you imagine walking away & leaving their yard in shambles, block in their driveway making it in-accesible....breach of contract, which would probably count cause it would be in the home owners favor then!!

My thoughts were on safety!! I walk away then who`s responsible should someone get hurt "vicarious liability" believe thats the term??? what sucks is I was thinking.....whats the law say? well nothing pertaining to a wall under 48" high....basically you can build it any way you want, which if I chose not to build & walked away...then the judge would be like:

"are they paying you to do what they want, if so...then build the wall" its a catch 22 & a no win for contractors.......I go see the Atty on the 8th & hopefully he has some good to say...will keep ya posted!!


LXT..................


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 7, 2010)

No signature, no work! 
Jeff


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## RVALUE (Jun 7, 2010)

lxt said:


> Yes they paid & were happy!! they even told this to the judge!
> 
> The 4" drain pipe ran the full length of the driveway 100ft worth, this main line had 3 branch offs going to house & garage downspouts, this drain line was directly under where the homeowners wanted the vers lok wall to be built.
> 
> ...



Now I see more clearly. Too bad. Got a few similar, although lately I've upgraded the work at my expense, to cover myself. Not a good situation. Costly. But so is court, I suppose.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 7, 2010)

I NEVER work without a signed proposal. I have successfully sued three people. My contracts are great because I've been writing them since I was 13 and in a busy rock band. Lawyers who have read my contracts always ask if I took/taught contract law.

I'm not positive that I got your story, but let me go over it and then----

OK, I got it. You discovered the pipe and it made building the wall, to spec, impossible. The HO opted to have you build it anyway.

You should have NEVER built the wall, after discovering the pipe that made building the wall, to spec, impossible. Even a release of liability clause would have played poorly in court since it would contain information, to the effect, that you knew the wall could not be built to spec yet you built it, anyway, at the client's insistence. You cannot use a client's ignorance of proper procedure to excuse your own acts, in court. It was your responsibility, as the wall building contractor, to do the job correctly and/or tell the contractee why this could not be done.

The thing to do was clean up your mess and leave, sadder but wiser: Any wall building project must include a thorough investigation of any and all sub-surface structures that may be impacted and/or interfere with the building of that wall. Whatever base the wall is going to have will, by necessity, interact with a certain depth of the underlying supporting soil/surface.

I feel bad that you got stung, but you now learned a valuable lesson, I'm sure, when it comes to giving in to a client's stupidity.

Another thing: You should have had a clause that made it clear that you would thoroughly inspect the sub-surface area before you ever did a thing to their property, to the extent that was possible. In addition, that clause should have contained an "unexpected discovery" provision wherein it detailed that if something was discovered during the excavation phase that made building the wall to spec impossible, you would restore the property to a condition that would make the homeowner's enjoyment and use of the property equal to the state it was in before excavation began, to the extent that was possible.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. The above is based on my "feel" for the law, and I'm pretty good, at that. I never lost a case when suing on a contract that I wrote.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 7, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I NEVER work without a signed proposal. I have successfully sued three people.
> 
> Great for you! I love it when the "Sunrise", You seem to type alot more than than the average tree guy!
> I would think you would be too beat to go on that expedition. You do understand that I am messing with you, but, dang, you wrote alot!
> Jeff ,(no letters left!)


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## BC WetCoast (Jun 8, 2010)

Rudedog said:


> Actually they are related by region. Indians are predominately Hindi and the Pakistanis are the people from India that were Muslim and driven out of the country by that great peace lover Ghandi. They are hard bargainers which is a cliche for they will screw anybody for a buck.



Not wanting to derail the thread too much, but to clarify this comment a bit.

The British Raj (Indian Empire) included today's India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. When Britain decided it was time to get out after WW2, Lord Louis Mountbatten (who was the Viceroy), was charged with defining the boundary between the predominantly Muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh and Hindi India. They weren't driven out by Ghandi.

India comprises several religions predominantly Hindu, Sikh (in the northern Kashmir region) and Buddhist. In our area, Sikhs are the major immigrant group (distinguishable by the men who wear a turban). 

Yes, they are hard bargainers, hard workers and shrewd businesspeople. However, as far as immigrant people that I have difficulty dealing with, the Iranians are by far the hardest (most were loyal to the Shah and came as a result of the revolution).


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 8, 2010)

Well, there ya go, so that is it.
Jeff


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## NCTREE (Jun 8, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Not wanting to derail the thread too much, but to clarify this comment a bit.
> 
> The British Raj (Indian Empire) included today's India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. When Britain decided it was time to get out after WW2, Lord Louis Mountbatten (who was the Viceroy), was charged with defining the boundary between the predominantly Muslim Pakistan and Bangladesh and Hindi India. They weren't driven out by Ghandi.
> 
> ...



Yeah and they run one hell of a mean Dunkin Donuts franchise. 

"coffee and a donut someting else???"


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## lxt (Jun 8, 2010)

Sunrise,

good post & I understand what you are saying...However, I did tell the home owner about the pro`s & Cons, they signed the work Authorization & agreed to the work! Here is the reason I didnt walk away:

this particular wall was only 2 coarses high & according to Versa Loks technical bulletin regarding "free standing walls" they state the wall can be built & set directly at grade!!

Now, the building codes only address walls higher than 48" & therefore any wall shorter than that requires no mandated build method.

there is nothing in versa Loks specs for walls under 3 coarses stating that it cant be built the way the home owners wanted it built. I was playing devils advocate throughout this whole situation.........

Honestly I dont think it would have mattered what I did, build it & get sued! walk away & dont build it & get sued! Ill have to see what the lawyer says!



LXT................


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## imagineero (Jun 8, 2010)

lxt said:


> Yes they paid & were happy!! they even told this to the judge!
> I was not informed of the line & to remove it/move it was not an option cause the home owners couldnt afford to do that, as a matter of fact the home owners couldnt afford any of my suggested build methods which were right outta the mfg`s guidlines, they got in over their heads without the ability to take care of any unforeseen problems!!



I really feel for you,
But i have to play the devils advocate a bit here too. I do mainly building work with a little bit of tree on the side, and the area i live in has houses that are 70~100 years old mostly. The building code was vastly different back then, and a lot of the work i do is repairs and additions to these mystery boxes. Its mostly quoted, but my quotes have a lot of conditions added to them.

At the end of the day, clients are relying on our expertise as professionals, thats why they call us. I like to lay things out, and after having been bitten on the ass numerous times i like to think I've got a pretty good idea of what might happen. So my quote is an estimate for the job as I see it. But i also include a few estimates of worse case scenarios. Want your tile re-grouted? here's what it might cost if your sub floor is already rotten. Need your guttering replaced? it might blow out if the barge boards behind are rotten etc etc... 

Not trying to scare people, just to give them a reasonable understanding and expectation of what the job might cost. People appreciate that kind of honesty, and i get a lot of repeat work based on it. people might not have the money sometimes, and if they dont and decide not to go ahead then they will probably come back to me later when they do have it. 

Does it mean i miss out on jobs? yeah sometimes. but they are usually jobs that i shouldnt be doing anyway, like people who dont have the money to do the job properly. once i promise a job to an elderly person with no savings and limited income, if the job turns sour what choices do i have? do the job at a loss, or do a poor job. who's fault is that, the elderly persons? they had a quote from me that they thought covered the job...

Bear in mind that in most court cases it is assumed that the professional is the only person qualified to make a decision, not the HO. Ive seen this so many times doing floor sanding. No matter what you tell them or advice you give to them, at the end of the day you have to decide whether that job is quality or not, and worth doing or not. If you always do quality work, then you've got nothing to fear legally. Sounds to me like you felt bad about the job and did (what you knew to be) a substandard job because you backed yourself into a corner over the HO's lack of funding to cover what you knew to be the right building methods. 

Shaun


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## arbor pro (Jun 8, 2010)

I used to do landscaping full-time along with tree work - now, just tree work. I used to build a lot of Keystone, Versalok and Diamond block walls as well as timber and stone walls.

Wondering how a 2-course wall could take 3 days to build and how it could be that expensive to fix if it fell over? Versalok is only 6" block. Two courses would be 12" plus an optional 3" cap makes it 15" tall. Is there something I'm missing here? Even with a drainpipe running under a block or two, I don't see how a few blocks sinking or leaning could pull an entire wall over - Even if it was 4' or 6' tall. Parts of it might sag or lean but, if tied together properly, the whole wall wouldn't fall over unless water pressure built up behind it and pushed the whole thing over.

I've built some 15' walls before and had minor settling that I had to fix. Usually a 1-day repair to pull apart the sagging section and repair the base and re-install the block.

I'm just not understanding how such a simple wall ended up in litigation - did the drain pipe drain water behind the wall rather than under or through it? What am I not understanding here LXT?


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## treemandan (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok, so this is not about a breach of contract. Its more about shoddy workmanship? 
I am not sure how the wall fell, I am not sure what this pipe had to do with it and I am not sure of alot of things.
But I have to ask this:
Was there ever a time when you could have just fixed the fallen wall instead of going to court? I suspect that is why you were sued, because the wall fell over. Is that the complaint that was made to the court that started the legal proceding? Tell us what they accused you of and why they ruled in the favor of the plaintif. Also, I have to see this wall; got pics?


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## treemandan (Jun 8, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> I used to do landscaping full-time along with tree work - now, just tree work. I used to build a lot of Keystone, Versalok and Diamond block walls as well as timber and stone walls.
> 
> Wondering how a 2-course wall could take 3 days to build and how it could be that expensive to fix if it fell over? Versalok is only 6" block. Two courses would be 12" plus an optional 3" cap makes it 15" tall. Is there something I'm missing here? Even with a drainpipe running under a block or two, I don't see how a few blocks sinking or leaning could pull an entire wall over - Even if it was 4' or 6' tall. Parts of it might sag or lean but, if tied together properly, the whole wall wouldn't fall over unless water pressure built up behind it and pushed the whole thing over.
> 
> ...



Yes, I am thinking the same. I originally thought the lawsuit was brought on by a breach of contract but now it looks more like shoddy workmanship. If that is the case why wasn't the wall just fixed before the lawsuit was filed? I mean we all are entitled to blow it , we all are entitled for a chance to fix it before the mighty gavelof the magistrate bangs.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jun 8, 2010)

I had a customer once in Sullivan county, NY, the Jewish alps. He was a Hacidic (sp?) Jew named Mayer. I don't judge and I'm not racist, but I could smell this one coming a mile away. 

He wanted 8 trees (70+ ft pines next to his house) removed, chipped and hauled. I gave him a price. He then says that his sister (next door) needs some work, so I write that up. His brother (next door, other side) has some trees that need work too. I write it up. He asks if I can make him a package deal for all 3 properties. I write it up again. He signs.

We come out bright and early, and start knocking down big wood. Bro and Sis's jobs are done, and I am at the top of the last pine about to make my back cut to drop the top when he comes out of the house, hollering about this and that. I stop the saw, and we have an aerial conversation about how much would it be to take out this tree, that tree, and this other one over here, since your here already. I tell him, and we add it to the bill.

Its a Friday. It's about 7:30 in the evening. I want a shower, a beer, and a shot, not particularly in that order. My guys are all giving me that look like "when the the hell are we gonna get outta here, T?!?!" leaning up on the trucks, arms a few inches longer than they were that morning. 

I knock on the door, signed quote in hand. I tell Mayer's wife, who either doesn't speak english, or refuses to acknowledge that I do, that I need to speak with Mayer. About 5 mins later, he come to the door. The screen door was all that separated me from his kitchen, and I could see him sitting at the table, doing nothing in particular, biding his time while I waited on the porch. Now I'm pissed... 

Mayer, without looking at me, comes through the screen door, keys in hand, and rushes down the porch steps towards his GMC Yukon. I follow him, yelling something to the effect of "HEY, WHERE THE (expletive deleted) ARE YOU GOING?!?!" He stops at the door to his truck and tells me that it's Friday night, and he has to get to temple before the sun goes down. I tell him that's all well and good, pay me, and then you can go. With that, Mayer slams the door in my face, and peels out of the driveway. 

Mrs. Mayer refuses to answer the door, even though I can see her through the screen door looking at me.

I wait until 9:45 that night. 

I had my ten-wheeler (GMC Brigadier all wheel drive... god I miss that thing) parked across the road so that he couldn't get back into his own driveway. My F250 was parked in front of the GMC, just waiting. 

Mayer rolls up, pissed off that he cant get into his own driveway. I tell him tough ####. PAY UP. "ok ok ok, calm down" he says... We walk up to the house, and he starts to peel off hundreds. So now I'm thinking, good at least I don't have to worry about his check bouncing. He hands me about half of the quote in cash, not including the additional work, which he signed off on. Things escalate quickly. He explains to me that the Hacidics (sp?) have a game they play called "handle" (pronounced Hahn-dahl) which is like a bargaining game. I tell him I'm done playing games, pay me or I'm gonna wrap the winch line around your house and drag it out into the street. He peels of 2 grand in hundreds and hands it to me, then tells me he will have to write a check for the rest. 

I get the check.

I leave. 

I wait 4 weeks for the check to clear, after bouncing in my acct 3 times. 

After the check cleared, I returned to his property in the GMC and dumped a load of chips in his driveway. I'm gonna say the pile was about 16 cubic yards. 

Moral of the story: Contracts don't mean anything to anyone if the customer is an a-hole. 

And don't piss of ol' T.


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## lxt (Jun 8, 2010)

I offered to fix the wall "return it to its originally agreed upon state" the home owner would not permit us to do such!

the 4" pipe would not allow us to properly ditch the wall according to the Mfg`s specs!! the work manship was far from shoddy....the fact that the home owners had hit the wall during the installation process numerous times & admitted so to the judge leads me to beleive & after inspecting the wall collapse that........one of the home owners hit the wall, but try to prove that!!

I saw my Atty & he told me the minute the home owner stated they could not afford to have obstructions moved or provide additional build materials I was basically screwed! you either do the job as they want it done & hope it holds or make the area as safe as possible....however they may still be entitled to punitive damages due to the damge the property suffered during construction & the fact they bought materials with intentions that you were to install such...either way a no win!!

so now I file appeal & see what happens from there!!



LXT..................


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## RVALUE (Jun 8, 2010)

BlackenedTimber said:


> I had a customer once in Sullivan county, NY, the Jewish alps. He was a Hacidic (sp?) Jew named Mayer. I don't judge and I'm not racist, but I could smell this one coming a mile away.
> 
> He wanted 8 trees (70+ ft pines next to his house) removed, chipped and hauled. I gave him a price. He then says that his sister (next door) needs some work, so I write that up. His brother (next door, other side) has some trees that need work too. I write it up. He asks if I can make him a package deal for all 3 properties. I write it up again. He signs.
> 
> ...



Great story. And with a happy ending. And a moral. And some savvy advice.


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## treemandan (Jun 8, 2010)

lxt said:


> I offered to fix the wall "return it to its originally agreed upon state" the home owner would not permit us to do such!
> 
> the 4" pipe would not allow us to properly ditch the wall according to the Mfg`s specs!! the work manship was far from shoddy....the fact that the home owners had hit the wall during the installation process numerous times & admitted so to the judge leads me to beleive & after inspecting the wall collapse that........one of the home owners hit the wall, but try to prove that!!
> 
> ...




i don't know how you got screwed... but you shore did! I would think some " unforseen problem" clause in a contract could have helped you. 
One thing I do is any and all digging ( no matter what) gets an 811 call. The townships are notified as well by this call.
I just can't believe you got the hammer for this. You have no pics of the damage to the wall?


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## lxt (Jun 9, 2010)

I have pic`s...during the build from start to finish, the pics of the wall failure are grainy & when up loaded to computer get worse!

I asked how to prevent this from happening again, as the homeowners from the get go had no concern about repairing the wall or providing a remedy to prevent this from happening again.....all they requested was MONEY, first complaint was for $1700.00, then in a response of theirs after wards they wanted reimbursed to have the wall put back to its original state which is the state they requested the wall be built in the 1st place, then through the magistrate they ask & get $4500.00

Heck I only charged them $2200 to put it up!! their complaint to the magistrate had dates that were wrong, wrong dollar amounts & was full of un provable accusations........the judge didnt care!!

actually what the judges concern was: my work authorization was dated & signed by both parties the day before the job was finished & she couldnt understand why??

I told her it wasnt untill that point in time that I knew definatively what all work/build method/materials were going to be used due to the home owners constantly changing their minds.......she told me well then you write up a change order & I told her (respectfully) I didnt know that the law states I cant re-write a work auth. the plantiffs had no problem with it & signed it.

How many of us have agreed to trim a tree, write it up & then the homeowner decides to take it down.......if we agree to do so then the trim agreement is null & void & a new agreement is wrote up or if your biz does change orders/add ons then you write one up????? 6 half dozen or the other.

BTW....some one gave the wall dimensions in here that I read & I just wanted to correct them the block are 8" high & the caps are 4" high a 2 coarse wall with cap is 20" high. This means nothing really other than the fact that according to the MFG the wall can be built directly at grade as long as the walls height does not exceed 26"........this is basically where any contractor can get jammed!

there is nothing that says I cant build the wall as it was....SO...as contractors when you are 1/2 way into the job & the unforeseen arises you can only ask yourself "what does the law say", I consider this a valuable lesson as it is a gray area, yes we are professionals BUT.... we are also employees of the homeowner, they can hire, fire, add on & take away & as long as their requests are within what the law allows them to do...we willingly engage into an agreement & comply with their requests doing the best we can!! after all it is by their request we are there in the first place!!!

I was told that due to the fact I didnt reside in this magistrates area & blah, blah blah that it shouldnt matter....BUT, it does. the plaintiff was a constituent of the magistrates & many times the magistrate has prejudice in such matters.

Now how to stop this in the future??? apparently writing in disclaimers & what you dont cover & just plain out trying to hold yourself harmless in any event is not recognized due to the fact there are consumer laws & statutes that no contractual disclaimer can over ride untill the statute of limitations has expired. In PA with the new HIC Law..they`re gonna make examples of contractors!!! so if you live in PA & are a contractor....grab your ankles cause even if you`re right................your wrong!! Ill be having my contracts redone due to the new HIC law & what all it entails!

thanks guys/gals for the insight & responses...Ill keep ya up to snuff on whats happening but it`ll be awhile...upto a year or better on the appeal!




LXT..............


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 9, 2010)

What I wrote, previously, would have prevented the above. Take it for what it's worth. If it's worth nothing to you, then so be it, but it's correct, nonetheless.

Added: "the 4" pipe would not allow us to properly ditch the wall according to the Mfg`s specs!! " Your words, not mine. Again, an unexpected discovery provision, here the 4" pipe, would have given you an "out."


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 9, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> What I wrote, previously, would have prevented the above. Take it for what it's worth. If it's worth nothing to you, then so be it, but it's correct, nonetheless.
> 
> Added: "the 4" pipe would not allow us to properly ditch the wall according to the Mfg`s specs!! " Your words, not mine. Again, an unexpected discovery provision, here the 4" pipe, would have given you an "out."



Kinda weird! I thought this is a tree site and I don't care about your wall! 
Jeff


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## outofmytree (Jun 10, 2010)

Oh dear, I agree with Jeff, (is that still a cardinal sin?) this thread belongs in the Business forum.

LXT you walked into a bad situation and you should have walked out. Like Sunrise I can tell you that your ass is in a sling and barring a miracle you will lose on appeal too. The fact is, you should have known better than to proceed with a retaining wall next to a drain. No matter how you argue you are stuck with the knowledge, backed up by the agreement you and the HO signed, that you knew better but did it anyway. Sorry man, you are screwed.

This isnt about the morality of a deal. Whelching is whelching no matter your age, creed or colour. Its about the law providing protection for the HO where they come in to contact with a professional in any area. Bottom line, if it looks dodgy, don't do it. You will be spanked for it and spanked hard.

BT. I feel your pain. Legality aside, I have wanted to do that on a small number of occasions. We have a garbage company over here whose logo is "satisfaction guaranteed or double your rubbish back" ....... yeah........


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## Toddppm (Jun 10, 2010)

You would have needed drainage behind the wall anyways, couldn't have tied into the existing and move it a few inches to behind the wall?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 10, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I NEVER work without a signed proposal. I have successfully sued three people. My contracts are great because I've been writing them since I was 13 and in a busy rock band. Lawyers who have read my contracts always ask if I took/taught contract law.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...





Finally, the voice of reason.


Basic contract law. Simple stuff. Required knowledge for anybody in any kind of business, especially any service business. But if you'd rather drink a beer and play video games than take the time to actually read something and learn, don't cry when something like this happens as if it's someone else's fault.


There are tons of free info out there. It's your's for the searching.


http://www.altavista.com/web/results?fr=altavista&itag=ody&q=basic+contractor+law&kgs=1&kls=1

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?fr=altavista&itag=ody&q=basic+contract+law&kgs=1&kls=1

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?fr=altavista&itag=ody&q=contract+law+tutorial&kgs=1&kls=1

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?q=contractor+liability+basic+law


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 10, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Finally, the voice of reason.
> 
> 
> Basic contract law. Simple stuff. Required knowledge for anybody in any kind of business, especially any service business. But if you'd rather drink a beer and play video games than take the time to actually read something and learn, don't cry when something like this happens as if it's someone else's fault.
> ...



Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business and any other: If you don't understand written agreements, as they may apply to contracts, you need to get your smarts fairly quickly or you will be :censored:ed like the op, here.

CYA is the name of the game with contracts. To blindly sign an agreement without making sure your interests are protected, is an idiot's act. Rest assured that there are lawyers out there who will go over your contract with a fine-tooth comb, should they be hired to sue your :censored:.

Let's say that you agree to prune a tree. When you get aloft, you find that the top side of one of its major, very large, heavy leaders, an area invisible from the ground, on a leader that goes over the ho's house, is almost rotted completely through. You tell the ho about its condition and give him a quote on how much it will be to remove it, as opposed to pruning its branches. You tell the ho that it is very likely that the leader will fail at any time in the near future. The ho says, "Ah, I can't afford to have it removed, right now. Just prune it, like in our contract, and let it be."

What should you do? (Everyone put on your thinking caps.)


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business and any other: If you don't understand written agreements, as they may apply to contracts, you need to get your smarts fairly quickly or you will be :censored:ed like the op, here.
> 
> CYA is the name of the game with contracts. To blindly sign an agreement without making sure your interests are protected, is an idiot's act. Rest assured that there are lawyers out there who will go over your contract with a fine-tooth comb, should they be hired to sue your :censored:.
> 
> ...





That happens all the time. If it went down like to describe I would put my findings on paper at least.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> No signature, no work!
> Jeff



Post #19
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 10, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Kinda weird! I thought this is a tree site and I don't care about your wall!
> Jeff



Post #37
Jeff


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2010)

We heard you Jeff, thanks.


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## treemandan (Jun 10, 2010)

Well, Sunrise? How many more beers do I have to suck down before you answer? Maybe you are waiting for more replies?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 10, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Yep. While this post is not about trees, it certainly is about a crucial aspect of our business *and any other*:




Yep. Trees, stumps, walls, plumbing, concrete work, whatever. Those who don't know the rules of the game will not win very many games, and what they do win will be by dumb luck only.


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## arbor pro (Jun 11, 2010)

treemandan said:


> That happens all the time. If it went down like to describe I would put my findings on paper at least.



You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.

If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.

This is common enough. 95% of the time, when I stop working and start writing my page-long declaration of problems and page-long waiver of liability, the HO has enough time to think about his stupidity and comes around to my suggestion to do what needs to be done. Very few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."

Something to that affect.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 11, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> YVery few like the idea of signing something that says, "I realize that by leaving my tree the way it is, I am a %$#*& idot. Further, I realize that my stupidity will likely result in damage happening to my home once the tree fails as was advised to me. I accept my stupidity and I accept all responsibility for damages caused by my stupidity..."
> 
> Something to that affect.





Oh, if only legalese were that straightforward!


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 11, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.
> 
> If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.
> 
> ...



DING, DING, DING! Right answer. You've been in the biz a while, I would guess.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 11, 2010)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Oh, if only legalese were that straightforward!



:censored: legalese! That is exactly why I learned how to write my own contracts very early on. To this day, I read over bull:censored: that various companies want me to sign and I demand that they put it in plain, :censored:ing English! Legalese is a contrived, planned, semi-encoded language that encourages/forces you to hire someone who speaks it (ie. a lawyer). It is true :censored:, and I refuse to deal with it precisely because I see through its bull:censored:.


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 11, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Yeah, I guess if you want to get all " lawsuit" with this tree work bullcrap then I am just gonna go home, get drunk and log onto Arboristsite.com.
> But , hey, if you have the means to go after big contracts help yerself. I just work for the commoner and that is tough enough. Most people are very understanding and happy with me and I am thankful for that.



So dan are you not gonna part with that truck?


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## outofmytree (Jun 12, 2010)

Damn you arbor pro you beat me to it.

I have done that very thing where the HO engaged me to remove 1 leader from a Tipuana over his house and once in the canopy I could see that the branch he wanted gone was no problem but the trunk immediately above was fractured from storm damage. The vertical crack was opening and closing as I watched it. Told the HO, got told "just do what I asked you to do". So I climbed down, packed up the truck and went home. Had I pruned that tree and the crown failed afterward guess who the Ministry for Fair Trading would be having for friday afternoon BBQ?


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## flushcut (Jun 12, 2010)

TimberMcPherson said:


> Yeah the india problem hits me all to often to, I think I could write a pretty good booklet on it. But I still look at there jobs and treat it like they are like any client. But so so so often, they are trouble.



I am Indian and I don't work for Indians.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 12, 2010)

flushcut said:


> I am Indian and I don't work for Indians.:hmm3grin2orange:




Now that raht thar is *funny*, I doan kere *who* you are!

:hmm3grin2orange:


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## flushcut (Jun 12, 2010)

It's true I hate working for Indians. I had one guy tell me that he was Indian and he was going to talk me down in price and I said funny so am I so what now? I usually don't have anybody sign for anything less than a grand.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Jun 12, 2010)

I gave you a nova for that!


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## Bigus Termitius (Jun 12, 2010)

I'll tell you my version of haggle.

Me: That will be $500.

them: howbout $400

Me: $525

them: What, that's not the way it works!

Me: $550

them: ok, $500

Me: $575

them: but you originally said $500

Me: Price is now $600...take it or leave it.


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## mckeetree (Jun 12, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'll tell you my version of haggle.
> 
> Me: That will be $500.
> 
> ...



That is exactly how I do it. There is not enough money in this deal to queer around with some ass rag that wants to get in a GD auction about the price.


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## randyg (Jun 13, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'll tell you my version of haggle.
> 
> Me: That will be $500.
> 
> ...




HILARIOUS stuff there...you know you don't want the job, so have fun to at least give self a fond memory of lost time. Seems every time I ever let someone talk me down, they are doing it again when it comes time to get paid. Crap like well I helped you drag some brush (got in your way) if you just take down that one last limb up there while you are here anyway (you are my slave till I release you) my wife has the check book (I don't have enough in checking to pay you but I should in a week) how about some of the pay now and the rest later (how about some now and you might forget about the rest) and on and on...
Pretty soon you are so frustrated you don't even care about getting paid anymore, you just want to stick em in the chipper so the nonsense will just stop already?

OH oh, spose that's how some of you feel about me everytime you start reading one of my posts?


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## RVALUE (Jun 13, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'll tell you my version of haggle.
> 
> Me: That will be $500.
> 
> ...



I've done that several times myself. However, never _successfully_.


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## lxt (Jun 13, 2010)

arbor pro said:


> You can't force the HO to do the work he doesn't want to do so your only choice is to put in writing that the HO understands the perils of not removing the rotten leader and still chooses to ignore your advice.
> 
> If you haven't started the job yet, you walk away - don't touch a thing. Deciding to proceed now aware of the danger involved now gets you legally tied to the tree should it fail. If you've been working on the tree for a bit before coming upon the rotten leader, you document your findings, make the HO sign the document and continue your work. Leaving mid-job could leave you as liable as just walking away from it so, you might as well do all you can to help the tree and document what is still needed to be done but the HO won't allow you to do it.
> 
> ...




Exactly, however......if the home owner doesnt want to sign & you were up there, witnessed the problem & did not re-act to safe gaurd property or life you can still be at fault!!!!

the laws fluctuate greatly from state to state & in some instances not so much, when you start a job & the unforeseen rises up which....you will never be able to cover your butt on everything....you are basically jammed (depending on where you live)

this isnt my first rodeo with lowly home owners....BTW...up till now I have never lost.....who knows about this one! My Atty told me he has several cases just like mine, seems like Home owners are learning how to jam contractors more so than worrying about the job being done right!

Oh...jefflovstrom..............who gives a crap what you dont care about, this is about contracts weather tree related or not, dont like it? dont care! you always have something to say thats short & negative, I bet your biz does real good with that kinda attitude, come to Pittsburgh & be that way...you might last 1/2 day before some millright/lieman/fitter or other tradesperson would beat the hell outta ya!

Look.... right, wrong or indifferent we do have to contractually protect ourselves & those who work without are on borrowed time, with the economy not doing so well......many people are doing things in a way to get what they want...wrong or right! mostly wrong!!!! all I can do is what the law says, learn from it & move on!!


LXT......................


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## gr8scott72 (Jun 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> Oh...jefflovstrom..............who gives a crap what you dont care about, this is about contracts weather tree related or not, dont like it? dont care! you always have something to say thats short & negative, I bet your biz does real good with that kinda attitude, come to Pittsburgh & be that way...you might last 1/2 day before some millright/lieman/fitter or other tradesperson would beat the hell outta ya!


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 13, 2010)

gr8scott72 said:


>



I am starting to think that you do not like me. OMG!- Where did I go wrong?
Jeff  123


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## outofmytree (Jun 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> Exactly, however......if the home owner doesnt want to sign & you were up there, witnessed the problem & did not re-act to safe gaurd property or life you can still be at fault!!!!
> 
> the laws fluctuate greatly from state to state & in some instances not so much, when you start a job & the unforeseen rises up which....you will never be able to cover your butt on everything....you are basically jammed (depending on where you live)
> 
> ...



At the risk of being inflammatory I still don't think you get what this is all about.

When engaged to do a job for gain or profit the law is dramatically different from when you do it for nothing. In the first instance the onus is upon you to do the job 100% right REGARDLESS. 

I understand the frustration that comes from trying to do the right thing and still being kicked in the teeth but your description of the retaining wall job shows that you made the wrong choice. I am not questioning whether you THOUGHT you did the right thing, I am using your circumstances to warn others who work for the public. To repeat what I and others have posted earlier, *If you cannot complete a job to the standards required then walk away. Failure to do so will result in your being in the wrong, as far as the law is concerned, every time*.

The whole idea of consumer protection legislation is to protect the vulnerable from the unscrupulous predators that exist in our industry and in most others. Whether these laws work is a matter of much debate, whether they exist is not.


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## lxt (Jun 14, 2010)

Outtamytree............

I do get the big picture........HOWEVER, not being from the states & being familiar with "the law" is where you are providing false conjecture of the situation!!!! Please re-read my posts & even then you may not get the big picture?

we were 1/2 way into the job...completing it to standards is not the debate! its when the customer "requests" something to be done in a way that no law or other says anything about!!!

you with me? what I/we did technically.......nothing says it cant be done the way the home owners requested, THEY WOULDNT SIGN ANYTHING, AS FAR AS WHAT THE LAW SAYS................it was a no win situation, if someone is gonna sue you...they`re gonna sue you! the law says nothing in favor of the customer in this "given situation" on the contrary...there are many things that favor me, will the arbitration panel see it my way? who knows! time will tell.

100% right..........no such thing!! 100% right to who? right is subject to interpretation of the requested circumstances & to include limits of liability for both parties...& on & on! the part you are missing is not could the job of been done right? or could I/we have walked away? its....

what does the Law say pertaining to this situation? the commonwealth of PA is a little different than that from down under, why would the home owner not allow us to proceed in the "right" regular build manner? what was their intent for not allowing us to do such? How many other contractors have they sued? etc.. etc.. any way this is all speculation untill the Atty does his thing.

Ill keep all posted!



LXT......................


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> Outtamytree............
> 
> I do get the big picture........HOWEVER, not being from the states & being familiar with "the law" is where you are providing false conjecture of the situation!!!! Please re-read my posts & even then you may not get the big picture?
> 
> ...



LXT, I'm not sure if YOU get it, here. There is the issue of "due diligence" and also that of "standard of care." Together, or separately, these appear in the rulings concerning contractors/professionals the world over. To some extent, they are universals.

When you found the 4" pipe, YOU posted earlier that the job could not be done to the manufacturer's specs. This is CRUCIAL to your upcoming arbitration. Why? Because you knew, that if you continued the job, that THE WALL WOULD NOT BE BUILT IN A WAY THAT WAS ACCEPTED AS BEING SAFE AND RELIABLE BY THE MANUFACTURER. You, as the "expert" here, knowingly committed an act, ie. the building of a wall over a subsurface that was not acceptable by the manufacturer, that showed you were not exercising due diligence, as that applied to the safety and well being of the person who hired you. In effect, you were showing by the building of the wall, that you didn't care what happened to your customer. Your standard of care was non-existant, basically. You were, by your act, ie. the building of the wall, saying, "To heck with my contractees. They're wanting me to commit an act that shows I am not exercising due diligence, and one without any standard of care on my behalf as the professional, here, so----I'll just do it to get my money!" Problem is: YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF THINGS GO THE WAY THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH GOING TO GO AS PREDICTED BY THE PROFESSIONALS INVOLVED WITH THE ACT. Here, the manufacturer of the blocks "told you," as the contractor/professional using their product, that their product must have a suitable subsurface. You knew it didn't, yet went ahead with building the wall, anyway.

If any court in the entire world rules in your favor, I'll be very surprised.

There might be mitigating circumstances, in your case, that may, possibly, get you a more favorable ruling. Let's say that this couple knowingly "booby traps" their homestead with articles that make the completion of a contracted job impossible, if one wants to do it to code/standard. EX: They hire an electrician to do a re-wire of their entire house but knowingly conceal the fact that there are hidden wiring issues that make completing the job to code/standard impossible, and then they sue for damages that give them more money than they need to complete the project to code/standard.

If that pattern, as above, is shown, you might get some sympathy from a judge/jury, but you might not. It'll be pretty hard to prove that your contractees knew about that 4" pipe, unless you can find, and prove, that they had the job done, themselves, and knowingly concealed the same from you.

To tell you the truth, if I was going to build a wall for someone, I would check and recheck its run and probe its future subsurface down to the depth recommended by the manufacturer's specs. I'm positive that any professional would do the same. I'm also sure that any professional contractor who found that 4" pipe, once the project was underway, would let the contractee know that the job could not be completed, would take down whatever was up, would replace all pre-existing structures to the extent possible, would have the contractee sign off on his/her satisfaction with whatever was done to restore the area involved, and then would walk away. The expense for the preceding would be eaten. You live and learn, hopefully.

Good luck with your case. It is almost 99% certain that you will lose, but sometimes you get lucky.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 14, 2010)

LXT, I think the "Sunrise" just rose!
Jeff


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## lxt (Jun 15, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> LXT, I think the "Sunrise" just rose!
> Jeff



Yes, but in texas!!

Sunrise you need to re-read previous posts! the wall as a retaining wall could not be built to Mfg (key terms) *Suggested/Recommended *specifications

The wall *was built *to Mfg specs pertaining to *Free Standing Walls*, how ever it is uncertain/unspecified if the wall could be built the way the home owner requested??????? AGAIN, there is nothing that says the wall (which is less than 26" high) could not be built as requested......sheesh!

I am not saying im gonna get away with anything, Im merely stating that in Pennsylvania when engaged in work, should a contractor mid contract encounter an unforeseeable/unknown beforehand problem....BEWARE, your contract better cover as much as possible & then some, my work auth. was prepared by an Atty specifically for the trades we provide, so how much better could it have been? apparently a little better!

The mitigating circumstances as you have mentioned are many, the home owners had a set of steps( concrete) built prior to the wall build which would have brought awareness to the underground facility.

check/recheck....for a 20" high wall??? first off, even had it been known there was an underlying facility to provide a means of directing water away from the residence, that facility, ie: 4" PVC pipe should have been properly ditched to code & in this instance was not!!! not inclusive of the fact had it been...we would have been able to provide the "retaining wall" as per Mfg specifications....the key here is "retaining wall" ala "freestanding wall" 2 different animals & 2 different build standards.

I built the wall as described within the mfg`s specs, The Manufacturers told me nothing! I didnt approach this for the "money" & "the heck with the contractee attitude" as you have conveyed, I approached it as follows:

1- build to suit/ an actual term used in the commonwealth to describe a home owners request......as long as its up to code! in this event no code applies! So, as a universal/worldwide practice you build as per requested & within the technical bulletins/guidelines as described!!!
2- to walk away would anger them regardless as to how the jobsite would have been left & safety would have been an issue!! if they`re gonna sue they`re gonna sue
3- did you understand that they would not sign any additional agreement holding me harmless....ie. satisfactory sign off or other?
4- probe its run.....thats what PA one call is for!! I was given the clear....however this was a PVC pipe with no metal/electronic sensory plates installed! & was not to code on depth in the first place! *This is how a professional would do it, Im sure!*


My posting of this event is not for arguement sake, I did offer to go back & re do the wall, however........I stated lets do it the way I wanted to in the first place, the home owners care is not for the wall rebuild or other...they want the money!

There are numerous cicrumstances in this situation, I am not trying to get away scott free.....but I dont feel I should be crucified either, I am just letting all know: no matter how professionally written your contracts are, how well you know the customer, how much time, effort & hard work you put in to try & do things......some lowly nutpump will find a way to jam you!




LXT..................


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 15, 2010)

lxt said:


> Yes, but in texas!!
> 
> Sunrise you need to re-read previous posts! the wall as a retaining wall could not be built to Mfg (key terms) *Suggested/Recommended *specifications
> 
> ...



LXT, I kind of "know you" from your past posts. As such, I know that you see yourself as hardly ever wrong. That's cool, man. Whatever gets you through your life, right? I'm not going to point-for-point you, here, as this has gotten real old, real quick. You handled this wrong, and that's that. If you had an attorney draw up your contract, get yourself another attorney. Case closed!


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## mckeetree (Jun 15, 2010)

sunrise guy said:


> lxt, i kind of "know you" from your past posts.



lmao.


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 15, 2010)

Bigus Termitius said:


> I'll tell you my version of haggle.
> 
> Me: That will be $500.
> 
> ...



Thats frigin hilarious your completely full of #### but a great story teller none the less , I have never even tried that trick but would love the laugh .


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## mckeetree (Jun 15, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Thats frigin hilarious your completely full of #### but a great story teller none the less , I have never even tried that trick but would love the laugh .



He may actually be doing that because I sure as hell have done it before and with success. More than once.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2010)

Oh yeah! Me too! (not) ,
Jeff


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## lxt (Jun 15, 2010)

Sunrise,

Im not saying im not wrong or that im not right! I just posted this predicament so that others could learn from what was done, get a new Atty? you`re funny......cause some kangaroo court magistrate made a judgement without any reason, I have the transcript!! & she didnt even give reason for her decision...why? cause her ruling could not be justified by anything the law said!

was I wrong?.......Yes, in the fact that I didnt entail this particular unforeseen event in my contract(s) & that I complied with the request of the home owner................I didnt go there with intent, malice or negligence to build a substandard wall, I went there to build their wall & make them happy & they admitted I did such!! they also admitted hitting the wall with their car on several occasions, So Now what?

all I can do is appeal & wait, if im found to be 100% wrong then Ill pay the judgement....But I think, the outcome will be somewhat different! I surely dont think Ill be paying $4500....but who knows?





LXT.........................


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 15, 2010)

Ah, gosh man, Why didn't you just speak-up and tell us you need a hug? ......hey.. where is the little "huggy" guy? 
Jeff


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## outofmytree (Jun 16, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> LXT, I'm not sure if YOU get it, here. There is the issue of "due diligence" and also that of "standard of care." Together, or separately, these appear in the rulings concerning contractors/professionals the world over. To some extent, they are universals.
> 
> When you found the 4" pipe, YOU posted earlier that the job could not be done to the manufacturer's specs. This is CRUCIAL to your upcoming arbitration. Why? Because you knew, that if you continued the job, that THE WALL WOULD NOT BE BUILT IN A WAY THAT WAS ACCEPTED AS BEING SAFE AND RELIABLE BY THE MANUFACTURER. You, as the "expert" here, knowingly committed an act, ie. the building of a wall over a subsurface that was not acceptable by the manufacturer, that showed you were not exercising due diligence, as that applied to the safety and well being of the person who hired you. In effect, you were showing by the building of the wall, that you didn't care what happened to your customer. Your standard of care was non-existant, basically. You were, by your act, ie. the building of the wall, saying, "To heck with my contractees. They're wanting me to commit an act that shows I am not exercising due diligence, and one without any standard of care on my behalf as the professional, here, so----I'll just do it to get my money!" Problem is: YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF THINGS GO THE WAY THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH GOING TO GO AS PREDICTED BY THE PROFESSIONALS INVOLVED WITH THE ACT. Here, the manufacturer of the blocks "told you," as the contractor/professional using their product, that their product must have a suitable subsurface. You knew it didn't, yet went ahead with building the wall, anyway.
> 
> ...



Sunrise this was precisely what I meant. 

LXT you have used the same "you don't live here so you don't know squat" argument in the past with equal lack of impact. 

To the reader. The point here is still the same as it was from post 1. If you cannot complete a job properly due to something unforseen at the start, leave it alone. Of course you should leave the site as safe as possible but as LXT is going to discover, when you do work for gain or profit the onus is upon you to do it right or not do it at all. 

And thats about it for this thread. :deadhorse:


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## mckeetree (Jun 16, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Oh yeah! Me too! (not) ,
> Jeff



What? They have you running scared or what?


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## lxt (Jun 16, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Sunrise this was precisely what I meant.
> 
> LXT you have used the same "you don't live here so you don't know squat" argument in the past with equal lack of impact.
> 
> ...




Yes i use the "you dont live here" why? cause you dont! & regardless of sunrise or your speculative thoughts...the impact (as you say) is different than what you have knowledge of!

your point to the reader is a misinterpreted (by you) folley of "think I knowitall arrogance"! It really is no wonder why many members here move on, a person posts a topic to discuss & bring alert to a certain situation & all of a sudden we have a group of Ben Matlocks!

Do some of you notice its the same group of penile implants that jump on a thread for the purpose of nothing other than misleading readers, some of the previous posts dont touch on the whole sum of events, they just say.... "LXT..will learn", "LXT...you shouldnt have" & so on......

thank god offmyrocker....I mean...Outofmytree felt the need to say "thats about it for this thread" hopefully thats it for his input!

AGAIN, Ill post the outcome following the appeal.


LXT....................


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## treemandan (Jun 16, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> So dan are you not gonna part with that truck?



Ok, how much?


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## treeclimber101 (Jun 17, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Ok, how much?



Really dan lay off that stuff , remember 8g "because it has a plow" lol


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## lxt (Jun 29, 2010)

well it got settled today 6-29, the settlement was $1750.00.....when it came down to it I would have payed my Atty round $1500 for services & 50/50 on how it would turn out.

The home owners really didnt have a case to justify what the magistrate gave them judement for, my Atty (who is on retainer/standby) basically told them (including their Atty) the circumstances dont favor them at all....so in agreement their Atty suggested they should (better) accept the offer!!

I guess $1750 is better than $4500+ & I did learn alot from this.......! So what am I doing now, well after some storm damaged tree work from last week....I am currently doing a paver patio, versa Lok wall project & a perimeter landscape!! this owner said: do what needs done!...Thank god!!


Thanks everyone for listening & the advice, I know there might have been some back n forth stuff.....but hey, water under the bridge & moving on!!


LXT....................


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## Sunrise Guy (Jun 29, 2010)

lxt said:


> well it got settled today 6-29, the settlement was $1750.00.....when it came down to it I would have payed my Atty round $1500 for services & 50/50 on how it would turn out.
> 
> The home owners really didnt have a case to justify what the magistrate gave them judement for, my Atty (who is on retainer/standby) basically told them (including their Atty) the circumstances dont favor them at all....so in agreement their Atty suggested they should (better) accept the offer!!
> 
> ...



Hi, LXT. Glad everything is over. It went the way I knew it would, but glad you could cut your loss, to an extent. 

I think I'm not understanding what you're up to, now. I hope I have it wrong. What do you mean by the "do what needs done!" line? Surely you've learned from your recent past, right? I mean, don't let this be a case of "the wise man makes a mistake once, the fool, over and over." You cannot do a job without an agreed plan and expect it to have a happy ending should it go into litigation. Come on, man, tell me you've learned your lesson from the last debacle. Tell me I'm way off here, as I sincerely hope I am.


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 30, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Hi, LXT.
> Surely you've learned from your recent past, right?



Dude! You cannot spell Shirley!!!! Ha Ha!

Jeff


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## lxt (Jun 30, 2010)

Sunrise, what I meant with the line in question is: to do it the right way & not cut corners...which is the way I do all my jobs!!! except for the one mentioned here.....my bad!...no more customer request crap for me! its my way (mfg specs) or no way!!!

No fool again!, all future jobs will be done according to spec...even if its a gray area & not clear in the technical build nature?? I have over 1/2 million dollars in wall builds & this one was my 1st sour one.

Hey Jeff...nice article in the TCIA mag, mines right below yours.


Be safe, Take care!


LXT.....................


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## jefflovstrom (Jun 30, 2010)

lxt said:


> Sunrise, what I meant with the line in question is: to do it the right way & not cut corners...which is the way I do all my jobs!!! except for the one mentioned here.....my bad!...no more customer request crap for me! its my way (mfg specs) or no way!!!
> 
> No fool again!, all future jobs will be done according to spec...even if its a gray area & not clear in the technical build nature?? I have over 1/2 million dollars in wall builds & this one was my 1st sour one.
> 
> ...



Whatch you talking 'bout Willis. LOL (lol means I am joking out loud),Hey LXT, is it in this month or last month. Got my CTSP #519, The owner of this company is the best I have met ever. After 33 years, I finally got a great boss!
Jeff


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## lxt (Jul 1, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Whatch you talking 'bout Willis. LOL (lol means I am joking out loud),Hey LXT, is it in this month or last month. Got my CTSP #519, The owner of this company is the best I have met ever. After 33 years, I finally got a great boss!
> Jeff



July`s issue! it is nice when you have a good boss to work for...not many around these days! take care & be safe!


LXT...........


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## treemandan (Jul 1, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Really dan lay off that stuff , remember 8g "because it has a plow" lol



Well then stop bugging me about it if you don't want it. I don't remember #### anyway so what are you talking 8 g's for?


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