# Winter CSM maintenance



## mtngun (Jan 19, 2010)

While BobL is sizzling in the outback, it's winter here in the PNW, a good time to do saw maintenance.

Ever since reading Malloff's book (thanks, Bmorgan :yourock I've wanted to mod my Alaskan so that the bar bolts onto the mill rather than clamps on. The Malloff mod makes it easier to swap chains.

First up, I drilled and tapped the Alaskan to receive 1/4-28 bolts. The good news is that the metal there is 1/4" thick, the bad news is that it is a gummy 300 series stainless that galls very easily. I'll use it while it lasts. Someday the threads will bugger and I'll have to weld in some mild steel inserts. 






Then I drilled the bar nose. First, I tried a 1/8" pilot hole, using an HSS bit at 250 rpm with lots of dark cutting oil. It made it about 1/3 the way through before the steel work hardened and that was as far as it was going to go. Out came a 1/4" carbide end mill to finish the job.

The new hole is the one in the center of the nose sprocket. The other two holes were used for the aux injector before I switched to a dripper.





The Windsor bar itself is soft as bars go. HSS was up to the job. The rear mount gets two bolts.





With the new mounting position, my non-adjustable aux dripper required adjustment. I ground it off and reattached it in a position that should work with either bar mount system.


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## mtngun (Jan 19, 2010)

Here's the 36" bar mounted to the 36" Alaskan. I put blue Loctite on the bolts hoping they wouldn't rattle out. There is a single washer on each bolt between the Alaskan and the bar, necessary to avoid pinching the nose sprocket.

The mod had the happy side effect of increasing the cutting width about 1 1/2". I believe it is now 30 3/4" cutting width. A 30" tree is very rare in our 2nd growth forests, they are usually harvested by the time they reach 24".





When my new 0.050" bar arrives (for lo-pro), I'll transfer the bar hole pattern to the new bar, so the bars can be swapped without needing to adjust the Alaskan.

Still to do, if time permits:

-- new, petite nose guard

-- CSM instrument panel

-- assemble unistrut (that I bought over a year ago ) for guide rail duty


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## Andrew96 (Jan 19, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Still to do, if time permits:
> 
> -- new, petite nose guard
> 
> ...




How about adding some wheels to your power head end and loose the skid...at least put them on the list. 
Excited to see the instrument panel.


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## BobL (Jan 19, 2010)

So far so good!
Thanks for the pics.


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## mtngun (Jan 19, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> How about adding some wheels to your power head end and loose the skid...at least put them on the list.


I knew someone would bring up wheels ! 

Honestly, it hasn't been a huge problem for me. Only while milling the bottom 1/3 of the log does the vertical post tend to dig in to the edge of the slab. I get around that by angling the mill until the rear skid pushes the mill away from the slab. 

I'll ponder the wheel situation during my next milling session. Now that the bottom skid is out of the way, it would be much, much easier to mount a wheel or two. Perhaps the old bar clamp holes could serve as mounting points.


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## BobL (Jan 19, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I knew someone would bring up wheels !
> 
> Honestly, it hasn't been a huge problem for me. Only while milling the bottom 1/3 of the log does the vertical post tend to dig in to the edge of the slab. I get around that by angling the mill until the rear skid pushes the mill away from the slab.
> 
> I'll ponder the wheel situation during my next milling session. Now that the bottom skid is out of the way, it would be much, much easier to mount a wheel or two. Perhaps the old bar clamp holes could serve as mounting points.



Yep - that would be the way to go.


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## DRB (Jan 20, 2010)

I have to second the wheels. I did not think it was a huge deal either but I was so impressed that they on both my saws now.


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## mtngun (Jan 20, 2010)

I notice most of the wheels are mounted below the bar. Seems like the Alaskan most commonly hangs up just above the bar, at the corner of the vertical post ?

I'll pay more attention to the issue next time I am milling.


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## BobL (Jan 20, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I notice most of the wheels are mounted below the bar. Seems like the Alaskan most commonly hangs up just above the bar, at the corner of the vertical post ?



I Agree that is where they hang up most so 4 wheels or a pair of wheels that flip like these would work on most setups.


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## DRB (Jan 20, 2010)

I find with the 2 posts on the powerhead end of my mill it seems to hang up on the bottom side more than the top. Most of the time I make cants before cutting boards so the bottom of the mill is what rides along the log when cutting off the slabs. When cutting boards from the cant the wheels still ride nicely down the cant without any friction.


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## Andrew96 (Jan 21, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I notice most of the wheels are mounted below the bar. Seems like the Alaskan most commonly hangs up just above the bar, at the corner of the vertical post ?



Well I think you're going to enjoy the speed at which you can swap chains much more than the addition of some wheels (with your latest mods). I put them on mine. The old mill had wheels as well. It can make it easier to mill over a bump (cut uphill, then down the other side) but unless you have them stuck way out (reducing your cutting width) they are not going to help much on the little diameter stuff. My mill sort of vibrates along the cut, the wheels are not 'always' stuck hard to the tree. They still get stuck in dips in the bark. I then have to twist the mill to get the foward wheel up again...just like you do without them. For my milling, I'd say I value them 50/50. Great when the tree is flat, bark free...just as much of a problem as I think skids would be when it's not smooth sailing. They cost me 1/2" of cut width though. 
I'm sure you've already thought of this though (considering the wheels IMO only really help on a bark free, or smooth bark tree), make some up, use those holes on your skid..stick them on when you have a smooth run up a tree and can afford the width. Now you'd have the best of both worlds. I'm suggesting this based on how much milling you've done (way more than me), and the fact that you are happy with the skids. I'm ready to add some skids (ramps to the ends) to the wheel portion of my mill, so I can loose the wheels for really bumpy barked trees. I'd then have a setup like yours...a skid when bumpy, wheels for smooth. Running up the side of a beech is not the same as the side of maple.


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## mtngun (Jan 22, 2010)

Instrument panel, made from 1/8" thick scrap flexible plastic, hose clamped to handle.




Got the new 0.050" bar drilled and started on the nose guard.


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## BobL (Jan 22, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Instrument panel, made from 1/8" thick scrap flexible plastic, hose clamped to handle.



Nice - is your tacho wire tucked in thru the fan housing?


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## mtngun (Jan 22, 2010)

BobL said:


> Nice - is your tacho wire tucked in thru the fan housing?


No, the wire is zip tied to the handle, follows the handle to the bottom of the saw, and then back along the bottom of the fan/starter housing, and then up to the spark plug.

The wireless $85 Fast Tach would be much more convenient, but for $30 I can live with the EDM's wire.


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## BobL (Jan 22, 2010)

mtngun said:


> No, the wire is zip tied to the handle, follows the handle to the bottom of the saw, and then back along the bottom of the fan/starter housing, and then up to the spark plug.
> 
> The wireless $85 Fast Tach would be much more convenient, but for $30 I can live with the EDM's wire.



Thanks, that arrangement looks a lot tidier than mine.


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## mtngun (Jan 30, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> How about adding some wheels to your power head end and loose the skid...at least put them on the list.



Here we have wheels. They started out in life as 2" casters. I rebored them to 5/16" so they could bolt to the Alaskan's existing 5/16" holes. Haven't tested the wheels yet, but it looks like they'll suffice.





Note the wheels, along with my aux dripper, limit the cut height adjustment of the Alaskan. However, providing you use a guide board for every pass, as I do, there will never be any reason to adjust the cut height low enough to bump into the wheels.


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## BobL (Jan 30, 2010)

Looks good - should work really well on cutting boards from cants.

The only times I can see a problem is on larger logs where the curvature is so shallow the log will still contact the upright or bottom of bolts before it touches the wheels.


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## olyman (Jan 30, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Here's the 36" bar mounted to the 36" Alaskan. I put blue Loctite on the bolts hoping they wouldn't rattle out. There is a single washer on each bolt between the Alaskan and the bar, necessary to avoid pinching the nose sprocket.
> 
> The mod had the happy side effect of increasing the cutting width about 1 1/2". I believe it is now 30 3/4" cutting width. A 30" tree is very rare in our 2nd growth forests, they are usually harvested by the time they reach 24".
> 
> ...


you got some unistrut--like bobl?? where???


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## mtngun (Jan 30, 2010)

I've assembled a unistrut guide thingy, no pictures to show until I have a chance to mill with it, which may be quite a while.

It was inspired by BobL's unistrut, but I did things a little differently.

Since 99% of my milling is to 12 foot lengths (the longest that can be carried in the bed of a pickup) I made the guide rails about 14 foot long. 

Instead of bolting it together, my unistrut guide is welded. Nothing to assemble, nothing to adjust, nothing to rattle loose.

To my surprise, the unistrut is more prone to twisting than my old 2x12 guide board. The unistrut will require significant support on the initial slabbing cut to avoid twisting. 

The unistrut is also heavier than the 2x12. 

However, the 2x12 warps and splits, while the unistrut should last forever.


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## BobL (Jan 30, 2010)

I've offered my mill makeover services to Hud and Sandi, the owners of the farm where I go for my milling holidays, on their conventional Grandgerb style mill to take a 72" bar. 

I'll probably be copying your wheel setup, and it will need an anti sagging device of some kind. I'll probably start a new thread when I get around to it!


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## mtngun (Mar 25, 2010)

Today was the maiden voyage of my CSM wheels. I was milling a cant, so it wasn't much of a challenge for the wheels. 

However, one of the wheels got chewed up by the chain. This is on the "slack" side of the bar. The chain was not loose, and I never see it jump that far away from the bar at that location, but obviously it must.











I'll make a steel bushing to mount the wheels and weld the bushing on just beyond the square tubing. Update later.


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## BobL (Mar 25, 2010)

Uh - ho, looks like the clutch area near the housing got a bit of a scratching as well? It also look's like a good indication of how close not to have the bar bolts, or a good reason not to use bar bolts.


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## mtngun (Mar 25, 2010)

BobL said:


> Uh - ho, looks like the clutch area near the housing got a bit of a scratching as well? It also look's like a good indication of how close not to have the bar bolts, or a good reason not to use bar bolts.


If you are referring to the bright shiny spot at the bottom right of the clutch area, that's the chain catcher. The catcher is unpainted aluminum so it is supposed to be shiny. 

I've never had a problem with the Granberg bar bolts being nicked by the chain. 

It's surprising how much the chain must whip and ripple in use.


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## mtngun (Mar 30, 2010)

I made a steel bushing out of scrap metal, and welded it to the Alaskan like so.





The chain should not hit the "problem" wheel now.


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## mtngun (May 4, 2010)

ENM tach display died. I noticed the display seemed a little dim a few weeks ago. It kept getting dimmer and dimmer until it was gone. Prolly dead battery. 





I contacted ENM, and they said told me I had to go through Amick's instead. So now I am waiting to hear from Amicks.

ENM claims an 8 year battery life. This tach was purchased in November 2009, so it didn't even last 8 months.

I'm hoping they make it right, because other than the bum battery, the ENM is ideal for a CSM.


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## Andrew96 (May 5, 2010)

I assume then that it's been working great up until the display vanished? When it's out of warranty, is there no way to open the case up and replace the battery yourself?


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## BobL (May 5, 2010)

mtngun said:


> ENM tach display died. I noticed the display seemed a little dim a few weeks ago. It kept getting dimmer and dimmer until it was gone. Prolly dead battery.
> 
> I contacted ENM, and they said told me I had to go through Amick's instead. So now I am waiting to hear from Amicks.
> 
> ...



The 8 year life refers to the length of time these tachos to be used on an irregular basis so if the tacho is used for a few minutes even once a week, 8 years is effectively the shelf life of the battery. How long they can be used continually depends on the efficiency of the circuitry, or if it gets a little damp etc. If the battery had already spent some time on the shelf to begin with that could also cause a problem. All the same, I would expect more than 8 months use out of them.

A few years ago when those small tacho's became available a number of 2 stroke scooter enthusiasts started used them them on their scooters and they identified a similar problem to what you describe. The cause was eventually traced to hairline cracks developing in some of the circuitry since they are not really designed for extended used on a vibrating surface. Some tachos were better than others but ~3 months was all they got out of the first generation spark counting tachos.


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## mtngun (May 5, 2010)

Nice to see you back on AS, BobL.

The display was on continuously -- there is no on/off button. When the saw is off, the ENM displays the total run hours. 

If it is like most electrical gadgets, the display consumes more power than the IC, so it will continue to consume power even when the CSM is not being used.

The manufacturer markets this tach to be permanently mounted on an engine or vehicle -- generators, tractors, boats, etc.. You would think that they anticipate a little vibration ?

It sure acts like a dead battery to me. I observe the same fading display behavior on my digital calipers and micrometers -- display fades and becomes more difficult to see when the battery is at the end of its life. Install new battery, display is bright again.

Except the ENM's battery cannot be replaced -- it's a sealed unit.

Since the ENM didn't cost much, it's not a big deal, just that I had grown quite fond of it and don't have any great alternatives. I could mount my Fast Tach as BobL has done, but the Fast Tach is kinda spendy to be knocking around in the woods, and the fast display update is annoying on a CSM.


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## mtngun (May 5, 2010)

It sat on my desk overnight, and I just now noticed that it was displaying again -- faintly. The display is invisible unless you hold it just so.


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## BobL (May 5, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Nice to see you back on AS, BobL.



Cheers mtngun, network access has been sporadic this last while while I was visiting still more relatives and I was flat out restraining myself on drinking (because I had to drive) and eating I had no time to scratch. Right now I am in Venice recovering from the food and drink onslaught we experienced in the last week 



> The display was on continuously -- there is no on/off button. When the saw is off, the ENM displays the total run hours.
> 
> If it is like most electrical gadgets, the display consumes more power than the IC, so it will continue to consume power even when the CSM is not being used.


Both of my tacs switch off their displays after a few minutes of inactivity



> The manufacturer markets this tach to be permanently mounted on an engine or vehicle -- generators, tractors, boats, etc.. You would think that they anticipate a little vibration ?


 Yeah I would think so.



> It sure acts like a dead battery to me. I observe the same fading display behavior on my digital calipers and micrometers -- display fades and becomes more difficult to see when the battery is at the end of its life. Install new battery, display is bright again.
> 
> Except the ENM's battery cannot be replaced -- it's a sealed unit.
> 
> Since the ENM didn't cost much, it's not a big deal, just that I had grown quite fond of it and don't have any great alternatives. I could mount my Fast Tach as BobL has done, but the Fast Tach is kinda spendy to be knocking around in the woods, and the fast display update is annoying on a CSM.


I agree.



mtngun said:


> It sat on my desk overnight, and I just now noticed that it was displaying again -- faintly. The display is invisible unless you hold it just so.


That sounds like a continuity problem to me. Maybe it's both?


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## mtngun (May 5, 2010)

BobL said:


> That sounds like a continuity problem to me.


Maybe you are right.

I put the tach in the freezer for a few hours, expecting the cold to drain the battery and fade the display. Instead, the display has strengthened and now it is working perfectly. Huh ?

I'm puzzled.  

Could be a flaky connection that comes and goes ?

Could be a short that bled power when the tach was connected to the saw ?

Anyway, not much I can do about it. 



> Right now I am in Venice recovering from the food and drink onslaught we experienced in the last week


Say, is the Italian food as good as they say it is ? I've heard they take meals pretty seriously ?


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## BobL (May 6, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Maybe you are right.
> 
> I put the tach in the freezer for a few hours, expecting the cold to drain the battery and fade the display. Instead, the display has strengthened and now it is working perfectly. Huh ?
> 
> ...


Yep, freezing is an interesting thing to do to electronics, it can pull things closer togeher and close up and clean out (freeze dry) gaps. It can also freeze and completely stuff up circuits but if it is already stuffed you have nothing to lose. I usually go - freeze first - then if no luck, leave in hot sun.



> Could be a short that bled power when the tach was connected to the saw ?
> 
> Anyway, not much I can do about it.
> Say, is the Italian food as good as they say it is ? I've heard they take meals pretty seriously ?



Yep it is freeking awesome. This is my 13th time in Europe and 11th time in Italy and I am still blown way by the standard of the food. Last night we had 3 grilled fish dinner and it was superb. Even simple stuff like sausage and cheese is so much tastier. I love the way Macas are relegated to garbage food. I'm more of a beer than wine person but their dry Proseco (sparkling white) I reckon knocks the french stuff into the back corner.

Here's where we are currently staying. 




There are two great little restaurants across the canal - one was where we had the 3 grilled fish dinner.


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## mtngun (May 6, 2010)

BobL said:


> This is my 13th time in Europe and 11th time in Italy and I am still blown way by the standard of the food. Last night we had 3 grilled fish dinner and it was superb. Even simple stuff like sausage and cheese is so much tastier.


I've heard that meals are a really big deal in Italian culture, that they spend a lot of time and money on cooking and eating. 

Americans are always in a hurry, we are probably best known for our fast food and drive-thru dining. :rockn:

It's just as well that the ENM started working again, because Amicks never did respond, and the ENM rep could care less. 

In the future, I'll arrange to disconnect the ENM when it is not in use. I need to work out some kind of quick connect anyhow, so I can switch the tach back and forth between the 066 and the 084.


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## Brmorgan (May 6, 2010)

They should make these tachs so they can recharge a bit from the spark current. I have one that "bigbadbob" here sent me (thanks Bob!) but to be honest I haven't played with it much. It seems to take forever to come up to speed and level out though. As you said, good for milling, I suppose, but not so good for tuning saws out-of-cut. I'm not really comfortable holding a saw WOT without load for the time it takes to get a good reading with these.


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## mtngun (May 6, 2010)

Since the ENM decided to start working again, I redesigned the mount.

I wanted to mount the tach on the Alaskan, rather than on the saw, to simplify using the same tach with both the 066 and the soon-to-be 084.

It'll also move the tach further from the saw's vibration and heat.

It also happens to be more convenient to view in its new location.





To simplify the wiring, the tach is grounded to the Alaskan, not the saw. The bar acts as a common ground.

The disadvantage to the new mount is that there has to be a simple way to unplug the wire to the saw's spark whenever the powerhead is removed from the Alaskan. For now, a wire nut is used. Hopefully, someday I'll scrounge some proper connectors. 

Each powerhead will have its own permanent wire running from spark to the tach, so swapping powerheads will only require unplugging one powerhead and plugging in the other powerhead.


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## Brmorgan (May 6, 2010)

Do you run the wire from the kill switch or the plug itself?


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## mtngun (May 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Do you run the wire from the kill switch or the plug itself?


Several wraps around the spark plug wire.


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## BobL (May 7, 2010)

I don't think the mill is going to be as good a mounting point as the wrap handle since the mill/bar is hard connected direct to the crank and with thus get all the vibe direct from the main body of the saw.

For the kill switch on my remote (MC based) throttle I'm using an audio jack. I'm not sure how well that would work long term for the HV field of a spark plug.


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## mtngun (May 17, 2010)

More carnage from the first outing with the unistrut rails.

The scratching and gouging is after only 1/2 day of milling on the unistrut. 





I'm thinking to try some adhesive backed UHMW strips (McMaster Carr #7701T411). Gotta do something, the scratching and gouging and high friction are totally unacceptable.

Also, one of the wheels has suffered more damage. I thought I had fixed the problem by moving the wheel further from the chain (it's now 1.5" away) but somehow the wheel got way out of round. Not sure if it was caused by the chain or by exhaust heat. It is useless now, so I will take it off. 





I'm thinking to improve the Alaskan "skid" rather than wasting time on these wheels which don't work well, anyhow.

The good news is that my ENM tach is working perfectly, after the mysterious malfunction that mysteriously came and went. I really like having this tach, it is just right for a CSM. But if you buy one, bear in mind that there does not seem to be any support or warranty.


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## mtngun (May 21, 2010)

The adhesive backed UHMW showed up. Only time will tell if the adhesive will hold up to milling duty, particularly where it gets blasted by the exhaust.


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## BobL (May 21, 2010)

Stick on UHMWPE looks real neat but it will be interesting to see how long it stays on for and it tends to expand quiet a bit with changes in temperature. 

I once built a lab with false (stand off) walls made of 1/8" x 8 x 4' sheets of UHMWPE. One day when the air con failed and the lab temperature hit 120 F some of the sheets just popped off their fixings and peeled off the walls and curled over like giant flower petals - wish I had taken photos.


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## mtngun (May 21, 2010)

BobL said:


> Stick on UHMWPE looks real neat but it will be interesting to see how long it stays on for and it tends to expand quiet a bit with changes in temperature.


Ya. The alternative is attaching the UHMW with countersunk machine screws. There isn't much meat on the alaskan rails for screw threads, so that might not hold up well, either. 

Maybe countersunk pop rivits ? 

Maybe cut the strips into pieces only a few inches long, with a small gap between pieces, so it has room to expand ?

They make a UHMW shape that snaps on over square tubing, but not in a size that fits the Alaskan, otherwise the snap-on stuff would be the way to go. It's $3 - $4 a foot, though.


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## BobL (May 21, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Ya. The alternative is attaching the UHMW with countersunk machine screws. There isn't much meat on the alaskan rails for screw threads, so that might not hold up well, either.
> 
> Maybe countersunk pop rivits ?


Good idea!



> Maybe cut the strips into pieces only a few inches long, with a small gap between pieces, so it has room to expand ?


Also good



> They make a UHMW shape that snaps on over square tubing, but not in a size that fits the Alaskan, otherwise the snap-on stuff would be the way to go. It's $3 - $4 a foot, though.


Not so good.


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## mtngun (May 25, 2010)

A while back I posted about how my ENM tach's display gradually faded until it stopped displaying altogether. I assumed the battery had died, but then one day the tach started working again, so the mysterious fading display is still a mystery.

Anyway, when the tach was malfunctioning, ENM literally told me it wasn't their problem. The former AS sponsor who sold me the tach never responded to two emails. Since he seemed to be ignoring me, I never bothered to update him when the tach decided to start working again. It looked like there was zero support for the ENM, and I didn't have anything nice to say about it.

Yesterday a package from the former AS sponsor showed up, with a brand new ENM tach. Even though he didn't respond to my emails, in the end, the former AS sponsor made things right. 

Problem is, my old tach is working perfectly at the moment, and I feel guilty about receiving the new tach.  Then again, the mystery problem with the old tach has never been resolved and the problem may return, so I guess I'll hang on to the new tach in case that happens.


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## BobL (May 25, 2010)

mtngun said:


> A while back I posted about how my ENM tach's display gradually faded until it stopped displaying altogether. I assumed the battery had died, but then one day the tach started working again, so the mysterious fading display is still a mystery.
> 
> Anyway, when the tach was malfunctioning, ENM literally told me it wasn't their problem. The former AS sponsor who sold me tach never responded to two emails. Since he seemed to be ignoring me, I never bothered to update him when the tach decided to start working again. It looked like there was zero support for the ENM, and I didn't have anything nice to say about it.
> 
> ...



Good for you.

I put my bung sendec in the freezer - no luck now I might try warming it gently with a hot air gun. I even opened up the back but it is filled with epoxy and the battery is sitting about 1/16" below the top of the epoxy. I'm not buying one of these sealed units again.


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## mtngun (May 26, 2010)

BobL said:


> I'm not buying one of these sealed units again.


I feel your frustration.

Of course, it remains to be seen if the more expensive replaceable battery style tachs will last longer than the cheap units when mounted on a CSM. Glad you are testing that for us, Bob.

If you are interested in an ENM and can't find one in Oz, I can arrange to mail one to you. For about $30 U.S., it can be considered disposable, though I'd like it to last more than 5 - 6 months.


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## BobL (May 26, 2010)

mtngun said:


> I feel your frustration.
> 
> Of course, it remains to be seen if the more expensive replaceable battery style tachs will last longer than the cheap units when mounted on a CSM. Glad you are testing that for us, Bob.
> 
> If you are interested in an ENM and can't find one in Oz, I can arrange to mail one to you. For about $30 U.S., it can be considered disposable, though I'd like it to last more than 5 - 6 months.



Cheers ntmgun. 

I tried warming in the sun but it is still dead. I am tempted to dissect it and see if I can find the problem but I suspect the problem will be buried inside a chip somewhere that cannot be seen. 

The scooter riders had the same problem with using these tachos continuously on their scooters . It would be of value to see if they have come up with a suitable model for their use. They make chips that can ride continuously on an F18 so I can't see why they can't make them to ride on a CS.

Thanks for the kind offer of sending me a an ENM but next monday I will be in the PNW anyway so I can probably get one myself. Where did you get yours from?


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## mtngun (May 26, 2010)

BobL said:


> Thanks for the kind offer of sending me a an ENM but next monday I will be in the PNW anyway so I can probably get one myself. Where did you get yours from?


PM sent.


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## BobL (May 26, 2010)

Thnks mtngun

Like I said in my reply, I think I know what might have happened to the Sendec. The last time I used the 880 with the sendec was in late January.

Then it was too hot in Feb and March to mill or I used the 440. During this time the daytime temps reached over 100F many times and 880 and mill were stored outside covered by a dark grey tarpaulin. I reckon under the tarpaulin it would easily have been 140F+ so the sheer heat probably killed it although interestingly the temp gauge seems to have survived OK. Unfortunately I have nowhere else to put it - my shed also gets very hot in summer ie >120F.

I will make the instrument easily removable so that at least that it does not have to sit outside. This should not be too hard.


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## mtngun (Jun 5, 2010)

Studs, rather than bolts, to secure the bar to the Alaskan. I borrowed a trick from DRB, and used jam nuts to secure the studs. For insurance, a dab of Hondabond serves as a thread locker.






Locknuts and wave washers. The rear of the bar is bolted tightly......





.......while the nose is merely snugged up to the wave washer, to avoid pinching the sprocket bearing. Note the discoloration from the overheating episode.





Even if this doesn't solve the problem with the nose overheating, it's still a better system. It's easier to change or flip bars with this system, and I don't have to remember to carry an allen wrench in the field.


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## mtngun (Jun 7, 2010)

*The latest carnage*

I was getting the CSM ready for its next adventure, and noticed that when I spun the chain by hand (engine off, of course ! ), instead of spinning smoothly, it went "clunk clunk clunk clunk." That's not good. 

Further investigation gave the bar a clean bill of health.

The Stihl 066 clutch drum sure seemed wobbly, though. The clutch bearing was fine, and the output shaft was fine, so where was the wobble coming from ?

The bore of the clutch drum looked a bit worn. Sure 'nuff, the portion where the clutch bearing rides mic'd 0.638" (16.21 mm). The drum bore is _supposed_ to mic 0.630" (16.0 mm). 





It never occurred to me that the clutch drum's bore would be the first thing to wear out. Live and learn.


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## Brmorgan (Jun 7, 2010)

I have an 066 drum with the same problem; it came on the ratty old one I got at the pawnshop a year and a half ago. It puts yours to shame though - its ID bore is probably 1/16" oversize or more. That saw was such a wreck when I got it! Like you I couldn't figure out what was going on with the chain every once in a while. Felt like I had a .325 chain on or something. I ran it like that for a long time though and probably milled over a thousand feet of lumber before replacing the drum this past March. It never gave me any problems cutting though. Once the clutch locks onto the drum, it isn't going to wobble at all anyway.


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## mtngun (Jun 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Once the clutch locks onto the drum, it isn't going to wobble at all anyway.


 Hmmm..... I hadn't thought of that. If the replacement doesn't arrive in time, I may run the old drum one more day.


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## huskyhank (Jun 7, 2010)

mtngun - 

Nice bore gage.


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## TraditionalTool (Jun 8, 2010)

BobL said:


> There are two great little restaurants across the canal - one was where we had the 3 grilled fish dinner.


Bob,

Is that Venice? Me and my wife love Venice...a lot of folks hate it cause of the canal odors and such, but we loved all the little restaurants where you can enjoy pizza and wine with some live music from local folks walking the streets, playing their music...

Maybe that is somewhere else, reminds me of Venice though...speaking of great music, my company bought me and my wife tickets to go see Ron Carter on Lido Island, a short boat ride from Venice on the water ferry...I was excited as I knew I had 4th row seats...turns out they removed the first 2 rows to enlarge the stage...we were in the 1st row. I snapped these pics before the ushers asked me to turn my camera off...:monkey:

At least they didn't ask for my camera...lol


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## BobL (Jun 8, 2010)

Tis indeed Venice. It's my friend's apartment across from the Fpndemente delle Misericordie. My mom is venetian so just about everyone sounds like here - I find it quite spooky.

Nice shots or RonC BTW!


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## TraditionalTool (Jun 8, 2010)

BobL said:


> Tis indeed Venice. It's my friend's apartment across from the Fpndemente delle Misericordie. My mom is venetian so just about everyone sounds like here - I find it quite spooky.
> 
> Nice shots or RonC BTW!


One of our favorite places. On the way back to Milan in 2005, I changed my train ride at the last minute and me and my wife went to Cremona to visit the Stradivarius museum...one of the coolest places of our trip we went...so cool to see old hand made tools that Strad had made for violin building, like hand built calipers...it was humbling...

I play upright bass myself, so really enjoyed the RC concert. I hollered out "Blues for Bradley" at the end, and they came back and did an encore of "Blues for Bradley"...what a night...me and my wife will never forget that one...must be nice to have friends there,

BTW, to keep on topic of the forum, have you heard the theory that the wood Strad used got the way it did due to being in the water in Venice for so long? Evidentially when the logs would come down the river, they would all be taken to Venice to be processed. There is a theory that the water is what caused the wood to sound so special.

Another theory is the insecticides used in the day...

Here we are close to 400 years later and people still can't figure out why his violins were so great sounding...it is fascinating...wood is fascinating...


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## BobL (Jun 9, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> One of our favorite places. On the way back to Milan in 2005, I changed my train ride at the last minute and me and my wife went to Cremona to visit the Stradivarius museum...one of the coolest places of our trip we went...so cool to see old hand made tools that Strad had made for violin building, like hand built calipers...it was humbling...


On the more musical side of things in 2007 I attended an open air concert in the "bosco di Paneveggio" in the Dolomites. The "bosco di Paneveggio" is where Stradivarius sourced his wood for his violins. The highlight was a violin performance played by Ugo Ughi on his Stradivarius. 

Here is a not very good picture of the event. There were about 5000 people packed in the crisp summer mountain air and this was about as close as I could get.







> I play upright bass myself, so really enjoyed the RC concert. I hollered out "Blues for Bradley" at the end, and they came back and did an encore of "Blues for Bradley"...what a night...me and my wife will never forget that one...must be nice to have friends there,


I have 4 brothers that all play various things. Two are in several serious bands and one plays the double bass in a Blue Grass band. 



> BTW, to keep on topic of the forum, have you heard the theory that the wood Strad used got the way it did due to being in the water in Venice for so long? Evidentially when the logs would come down the river, they would all be taken to Venice to be processed. There is a theory that the water is what caused the wood to sound so special.



I support the mini-ice age theory.


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## wigglesworth (Jun 9, 2010)

mtngun said:


> It never occurred to me that the clutch drum's bore would be the first thing to wear out. Live and learn.




Maybe im wrong here, but I dont think that would affect anything while the clutch was engaged, no?


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## Andrew96 (Jun 9, 2010)

I thought they disproved all the old theorys about the stradivarius's perfect sound. From what I know.....The wood was only one key point...(uniform growth rings from equal summer and winter growth). The other main point was the perfection in thickness throughout any of the parts (perfect control of thickness...by hand!!). The end result, I thought, was the perfect craftsmanship trumped any major affect the wood had on it. In other words....they made a perfect instrument...they didn't 'just' have some special wood that no one else could get. Other period instruments were made of very similar woods but without them being combined with the uniform body thickness (therefore not perfect), didn't produce perfection in sound. I remember them using a CT scanner and found the inside of the instruments to be as perfectly made as the outside. From memory, something like 0.005" variation in thickness on all the body panels, curved and bent and all. 
I've never been to the Stradivarius museum. You guys do get around.


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## BobL (Jun 9, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> I thought they disproved all the old theorys about the stradivarius's perfect sound. From what I know.....The wood was only one key point...(uniform growth rings from equal summer and winter growth). The other main point was the perfection in thickness throughout any of the parts (perfect control of thickness...by hand!!). The end result, I thought, was the perfect craftsmanship trumped any major affect the wood had on it. In other words....they made a perfect instrument...they didn't 'just' have some special wood that no one else could get. Other period instruments were made of very similar woods but without them being combined with the uniform body thickness (therefore not perfect), didn't produce perfection in sound. I remember them using a CT scanner and found the inside of the instruments to be as perfectly made as the outside. From memory, something like 0.005" variation in thickness on all the body panels, curved and bent and all.
> I've never been to the Stradivarius museum. You guys do get around.



It wasn't so much the wood thickness that was uniform, it was the air volume of the instruments that was consistent. See here. http://blog.americanhistory.si.edu/...iolins-reveal-master-luthiers-techniques.html


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## mtngun (Jun 9, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> I dont think that would affect anything while the clutch was engaged, no?


Good question. My guess is that the drum will wobble less with the clutch engaged, but it will still wobble more than a new drum. A wobbling drum puts more strain on the chain and on the crank.

If Lakeside were here ........ what do you suppose he would say ?  He used to lecture us to grease the clutch bearing _*every single day*_ while milling. 

A replacement drum is supposed to arrive Friday afternoon, just in time for weekend woodcutting.


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## Brmorgan (Jun 9, 2010)

I wouldn't say daily greasing is bad, but I think that's a bit of overkill for most folks. Once the clutch engages, the drum is spinning at the same speed as the crank so the bearing should see next to no wear and tear while cutting, unless it's dried right out and starting to rough up already.


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## mtngun (Jun 9, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> I wouldn't say daily greasing is bad, but I think that's a bit of overkill for most folks. Once the clutch engages, the drum is spinning at the same speed as the crank so the bearing should see next to no wear and tear while cutting, unless it's dried right out and starting to rough up already.


Clutch bearings seem to fling the grease off very quickly. Lakeside said his clutch bearings would be dry after a single day of milling, and that has also been my experience with dino grease. Synthetic grease seems to stay on a little longer.

The clutch bearing doesn't work hard unless the saw bogs, but it is not unusual for a milling saw to bog. 

There was a thread a few years back, about a guy milling ironwood with a Stihl 088, and burning up clutch bearings one after another. Lakeside whipped out his "grease daily" lecture.  

burning up clutch bearings thread

Clutch bearings are cheap, so I'm not losing sleep over wearing out a clutch bearing, but clutch drums are not so cheap. 

Yet another Lakeside clutch lecture.


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## BobL (Jun 9, 2010)

A couple of years back I was asked to comment on a small husky that has snapped a crank at the clutch bearing. There was quite a bit of wear that exactly matched where the bearing rode on the shaft. The bearing was a solid black congealed mass of resin, sawdust, oil and grit and it was well bonded to the clutch housing. Yes he had been using the saw in dirty conditions for months and had never greased the bearing.

Usually the bearing binds the other way (onto the the crankshaft) which is why it can wear the clutch, or binds on both, which is dangerous because the chain does not stop turning at idle. I don't know why his bearing bound on the clutch housing but whatever happened it has been enough to remind me to grease the bearing every 2-3 days of milling on an inboard clutch machine and every 6-8 days on outboard clutch saws.


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## billstuewe (Jun 12, 2010)

I had a bearing go out on my old 084 and it screwed up the plastic housing all around the drum and even messed up the oiler underneath. Cost a bunch to fix!
I grease it very often now with Stihl white lithium grease--comes in an orange tube.


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## billstuewe (Jun 12, 2010)

BobL said:


> Thnks mtngun
> 
> Like I said in my reply, I think I know what might have happened to the Sendec. The last time I used the 880 with the sendec was in late January.
> 
> ...



BobL, I've got my dashboard together--let's see what you think.





I have mounted the temp gauge to a 1/4" piece of plexiglass sized for the Sendec and the temp gauge. The temp gauge is stuck on with double stick tape and the tacko is attached with velcro and is easily removable. The tacko wire has an aligator clip that I clip next to the spark plug and wrap the wire around the handlebar. I move it between the 660 and 880. I wish the temp gauge was removable also--hurry and perfect that system.




I attached the plexiglass to a metal clip like you screw on the wall to snap a broom handle into. It snaps onto the handle bar and is easy to adjust for ease of viewing and will be switchable between saws when you perfect the lead plugs for the temp gauge. (please hurry)I have no clue how to do it so I am waiting on you. My solution would be to buy a second temp gauge for the 660--which I will probably do since a second probe wire costs about $13 and I paid $16 for the whole thing (plus shipping)




This shows the velcro on the tacko--loops on the plexiglass, hooks on the back of the tacko. I have another set of loops on the 660.





Now for results when milling:
As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F. It cuts a bit faster at the lower RPM. Do you think the lower temp is worth the extra cutting time of maintaing the 8000±RPM? What should I think of as a max milling temp? And yes, this is a stock saw--I am a bit chicken to monkey with it.
Thanks,


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## mtngun (Jun 12, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F. It cuts a bit faster at the lower RPM. Do you think the lower temp is worth the extra cutting time of maintaing the 8000±RPM? What should I think of as a max milling temp?


Thanks for the excellent data, Billstuewe. We dataholics salute you. 

Your RPMs don't sound so bad, especially for a stock saw. That's basically the same RPM range as my 066BB, cutting small softwoods with lo-pro. You are running 3/8 x 8, right ?

I have no idea what the ideal temperature should be, especially the way the probe is mounted kinda loosely behind the exhaust port. But -- since BobL uses a similar setup on the same powerhead, you would think that your temps should be similar to his ?

Interesting that temperature rises as RPMs drop.


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## billstuewe (Jun 12, 2010)

I had it up to about 325°F and let off on the push so the RPM went to about 8300 and it cooled to 285° in under 15 seconds. It took about 8' of 30" cutting to get there. Kinda surprised me. Here is what I have been doing. These logs are pecan and have been down for 2 years--tornado damage--and have a fair bit of spalting.


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## mtngun (Jun 12, 2010)

Absolutely beautiful.

Do you make furniture, or just sell the wood to someone else ?


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## billstuewe (Jun 13, 2010)

Both--
--coffee table (live oak)




---TV stand/entertainment center


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## Andrew96 (Jun 13, 2010)

mtngun said:


> Interesting that temperature rises as RPMs drop.



I'd think being fan cooled, that the lower the rpm, the less cooling airflow you will get, the hotter it will run. Since this lower rpm is still well within the power band, there is still significant fuel being burned. Slow it down enough, and your temp will start to go down again..though you couldn't cut at that rpm. 

Very nice setup BTW. I like the ability to run at least the tach on two saws and the broom handle mounting clip!


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## BobL (Jun 13, 2010)

Thanks Bill,
In a rush - more comments later 
Where is the tip of your sensor located? 
Bob


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## billstuewe (Jun 13, 2010)

I put it right where you said to --


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## BobL (Jun 13, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> I put it right where you said to --


OK.

As I cut the temp climbs to the high 200's/low300's. If I maintain the RPM's at 7900-8500 it levels out about 275-285°F. If I lug it down to the 7000 RPM level, the temp moves up to about 310-320°F.

Wow! There must be something wrong with either one of our sensors or our saws.

While running my saw my sensor has never gone over 175F! The only time it goes over 200F is if I stop the saw immediately after it has been running and then it rapidly reaches 220F

Normally when I mill the gauge indicates at round the 150 - 160F mark. I thought that all these temperatures were low because of the effect of air cooling - maybe your fin gap is a lot narrower than mine. Don't forget I also have a significant muffler mod on mine but can't imagine that making that much difference.

I haven't calibrated my temp sensor and can't do anything for a couple of months because I am in Calgary. One way to calibrate it to put the sensor tip in a mix of ice and water (let it stabilize for a few (10?) minutes) and it should show 32F and then boiling water (it actually has to be boiling) and it should show 212F. If you are significantly above sea level a correction might be needed.

In terms of your layout I reckon the instruments would be easier to read if they were both rotated anti clock wise by 90º. I like the clip idea but I wonder how it will wear the wrap handle material it the clip is put on and off.


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## billstuewe (Jun 13, 2010)

The center point of the wire loop where the sensor is located is a bit more ridgid and when I tucked it in between the fins above the exhaust port it seemed a snug fit and so that is where I left it. Your temps do sound low--that won't even boil water--would hardly burn you if you touched it?? I am not an engine person but mine seem more in line to me? As you also said earlier--they are relative. I suppose I keep going and if I suddenly see the temp is 350 I know something is wrong. When I shut the engine off quickly--as in running out of gas, the temp does rise up to the 350 range but cools real quick once I crank back up. I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.
The plexiglass is attached to the broom clip by only one screw so it will rotate easily if loosened. I mill with the string pulley and it is positioned perfect for my observation. If you look at my avatar, I have a log loading ramp in front of my Logosol mill and once a log is milled down to the point that I have to bend over to saw, I put the log on there and mill off the end. I will take a pic tomorrow and post.
I do not think it will hurt the rubber on the handle bar for a long time


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## mtngun (Jun 13, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.


How long does this work out to be ?


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## BobL (Jun 13, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> The center point of the wire loop where the sensor is located is a bit more ridgid and when I tucked it in between the fins above the exhaust port it seemed a snug fit and so that is where I left it.


,
The space in between your fins definitely sounds narrower than mine, mine is sort of just hanging there and almost certainly just seeing the cooling air temp rather than a direct temp. I have been meaning to make up a block of ally to force the sensor top hard down onto the exhaust manifold.



> Your temps do sound low--that won't even boil water--would hardly burn you if you touched it?? I am not an engine person but mine seem more in line to me?


I agree



> As you also said earlier--they are relative. I suppose I keep going and if I suddenly see the temp is 350 I know something is wrong. When I shut the engine off quickly--as in running out of gas, the temp does rise up to the 350 range but cools real quick once I crank back up. I normally let the engine idle at the end of the cut--the temp climbs a bit and I continue idling until I see the temp start down and then I shut her down.


yep - I do the same - it takes about 



> The plexiglass is attached to the broom clip by only one screw so it will rotate easily if loosened. I mill with the string pulley and it is positioned perfect for my observation. If you look at my avatar, I have a log loading ramp in front of my Logosol mill and once a log is milled down to the point that I have to bend over to saw, I put the log on there and mill off the end. I will take a pic tomorrow and post.
> I do not think it will hurt the rubber on the handle bar for a long time


OK I understand now.


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## billstuewe (Jun 14, 2010)

mtngun:
About 30 seconds or so. Most of the time I just set the chain brake and carry the idling saw to the other end of the log and set her down and tend to something else for a bit. When I see the temp declining I shut her off.

Bobl:
The tip of my loop was a bit stiff and when I pinched it to stick it between the fins it just wedged in there nicely. Part of the enlarged sensor made direct contact with the top and bottom of the fins. It is wedged in there like I understood yours was?? I do not know how to draw on my pics like you and mtngun do or I would show you what I mean--sorry.

"yep - I do the same - it takes about " Where you going to give us a figure or were you repeating mtngun's question?


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## BobL (Jun 14, 2010)

billstuewe said:


> mtngun:
> About 30 seconds or so. Most of the time I just set the chain brake and carry the idling saw to the other end of the log and set her down and tend to something else for a bit. When I see the temp declining I shut her off.
> 
> Bobl:
> ...



Whoops, yeah , what I was going to say is my sensor (which is now obviously measuring cooling air temp) indicates it takes about 30 seconds to get back to just the original milling air temp but I like to get if go lower than this before switching off.

So, if my air temp while sawing is 160F, as soon as I stop cutting and let the saw idle it shoots up to over 200F, then to get back to 160F takes about 30s but I leave it idles for a lot longer. I place the idling saw/mill on a specially designed table to hold a running mill and take the log rails off and tip the slab off the cant and collect up my wedges. This takes 2-3 minutes. By then the air temp is at normal idle which is around 140F - but that depends on the actual real air temp.


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