# Friction saver - rings in nylon strap?



## ATH (Apr 19, 2009)

Is there any reason that this is a bad idea for a friction saver?







I took the rings off of my old friction saver because I damaged the cord - so I know they are good enough. The nylon loop runner is a standard one from Sherrill and rated for 4000# so I know that is fine. Especially since I used rings I already had, this would give me a second friction saver for an $8 nylon loop.

I thought I might put a stitch to hold the loop together - though I am a little hesitant to do that because I don't know if that will weaken the loop runner. I doubt it would, but nor do I have the ability to test it.

Am I out of ANSI Z133 standards if I do this?

Thanks!


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## Raymond (Apr 19, 2009)

Hell it'll be alright. Use it and just keep an eye on it. 
But yeah I don't see a problem with it.


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## rbtree (Apr 19, 2009)

You might want to tape the webbing to assure that the girth hitch doesn't open, allowing a ring to fall off.

I have Nick splice adjustable f/s's, and use two biners, plus a pulley. Can be installed easily and with good friction reduction. more likely to hang up though.


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## Bearcreek (Apr 19, 2009)

I made one just like that. Seems to work fine. Anyone have an opinion on making one like this with nylon webbing tied to the rings with a water knot instead of girth hitched? I haven't tried it yet but it seems like it would be nice cause you wouldn't have to worry about the girth hitches coming off the rings.


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## ATH (Apr 19, 2009)

I was thinking that stitching would take care of securing the girth hitch.

Bearcreek, I did think about using stardard webbing (instead of a loop), so I could make it longer - but I am not comfortable that my sewing can make it strong enough and I thought the knots would make it a little too bulky.


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

ATH said:


> I was thinking that stitching would take care of securing the girth hitch.
> 
> Bearcreek, I did think about using stardard webbing (instead of a loop), so I could make it longer - but I am not comfortable that my sewing can make it strong enough and I thought the knots would make it a little too bulky.



Where are you thinking of stitching the webbing?

I am trying to think of where I would stitch that would not put the stitch under load at some point. Maybe stitch permanent eyes into the webbing that are just big enough for the small ring to pass through them so you can girth the big ring by passing the webbing through itself and the the small ring by passing the ring through the loop.

Stitch it without the rings in place and the webbing laying flat on itself.

What do you think?


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

Do you work with anybody that can splice?

I've heard that rope friction savers don't hang up as easy as webbing ones.


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## ATH (Apr 20, 2009)

My original plan was to splice the rings onto 3 strand eyes (that is all I have spliced...). Then I figured this would be faster, more flexible, and possibly easier to use - so here I am. It would be nice to splice the rings onto 16 strand. Maybe I should just learn - obviously it wouldn't be a wasted skill!

As for the stitching question:

**With this make-up I'd run a zig-zag stitch down each edge all the way to the girth hitch - and probably a little into the girth hitch. This will not put the stitching under load - but my concern is whether the stitching weakends the tested strength of the nylon loop.
**To make from "scratch": What I was thinking was that I'd just double over a piece of tubular webbing with a ring at each end, then run a zig-zag stitch up and down both edges. I would probably overlap the ends so it would be like a loop runner that has the rings already in the loop - then the stitching along the length of each edge to hold the rings at the "ends". Obviously, this would work because it is the same thing as the loop I can buy with the addition of rings in it - but my stitching methods will not have been tested many times over to have met very strict standards. I am pretty sure it would be safe...but I try to move from "pretty sure" to "tested by ANSI standards" as often as possible!


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

ATH said:


> My original plan was to splice the rings onto 3 strand eyes (that is all I have spliced...). Then I figured this would be faster, more flexible, and possibly easier to use - so here I am. It would be nice to splice the rings onto 16 strand. Maybe I should just learn - obviously it wouldn't be a wasted skill!
> 
> As for the stitching question:
> 
> ...



I like your idea better than mine (the girth hitch setup) but I wish I knew more about stitching webbing for loading like that. I know what you mean about "pretty sure".

Samson's "eye and eye tail" splice is not too bad to do. But:



> These instructions are intended for use with Samson’s Tenex, Tenex-Tec (2 end per carrier Tenex), IceTail, or Tech-12 only



It is A LOT easier splice than the 16 strand but the 16 strand eye is a nice one to know too.

If you like the one you make, Wesspur has aluminum rings for around $4.25 each.


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

If you are going to learn 16 strand splicing, don't buy a fid, make your own.

The only thing I would reccomend buying is a pick set from Menards, they have rounded ends and work great for extracting the core and pulling strands.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Apr 20, 2009)

One observation would be the load rating on your stap from Sherrill. I would be looking for a rating of at minimum 5000 lbs. to 6500 lbs. . The life you save may be your own.


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## treemandan (Apr 20, 2009)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> One observation would be the load rating on your stap from Sherrill. I would be looking for a rating of at minimum 5000 lbs. to 6500 lbs. . The life you save may be your own.



The wwl is 1200 on these straps.


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## Raymond (Apr 20, 2009)

I bought one like 4 years ago from Sherrill but I've never used it.
Was always afraid it would not come down when I was done.
I figure the first time I used them and it got stuck would be the last.

So do these come down alright and not get hung up?
I think I'll dig mine out of the bottom of the box and give it a try soon.


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

Raymond said:


> I bought one like 4 years ago from Sherrill but I've never used it.
> Was always afraid it would not come down when I was done.
> I figure the first time I used them and it got stuck would be the last.
> 
> ...



You just got to pick the crotch you put your gear into. Just like life, the tighter the crotch, the more work it is......

The only problem I have had was when I used a mini-biner to retrieve it and the biner locked onto the big ring instead of sliding through. Had to set another line the next day and get my first line out.

Now I use screw links in my spliced eyes for retrieval. I have also seen people use a washer on a short cord for retrieval.


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## Raymond (Apr 20, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> You just got to pick the crotch you put your gear into. Just like life, the tighter the crotch, the more work it is......
> 
> The only problem I have had was when I used a mini-biner to retrieve it and the biner locked onto the big ring instead of sliding through. Had to set another line the next day and get my first line out.
> 
> Now I use screw links in my spliced eyes for retrieval. I have also seen people use a washer on a short cord for retrieval.


I hear ya big guy. I think I'll give it a try.


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## outofmytree (Apr 20, 2009)

ATH said:


> Is there any reason that this is a bad idea for a friction saver?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dunno about ANSI but I know that in Aus if you are not the manufacturer or licensed repair agent any modification of rigging equipment is deemed unsafe to use. As such it cannot be used for commercial climbing nor will it be permitted to be used in ISAAC tree climbing comp's. 

Now that said, your idea seems sound to me and I know many climbers who have cut the rings off cambium savers (friction savers to you) in order to hang a maillon and pulley instead. 

Quick couple of questions. 

Are the rings steel or alloy?

How did the original strap come to be damaged?


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## Ghillie (Apr 20, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Dunno about ANSI but I know that in Aus if you are not the manufacturer or licensed repair agent any modification of rigging equipment is deemed unsafe to use. As such it cannot be used for commercial climbing nor will it be permitted to be used in ISAAC tree climbing comp's.
> 
> Now that said, your idea seems sound to me and I know many climbers who have cut the rings off cambium savers (friction savers to you) in order to hang a maillon and pulley instead.
> 
> ...



How does rope splicing come under that scrutiny? Or does it?


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## outofmytree (Apr 20, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> How does rope splicing come under that scrutiny? Or does it?



Great question. I will read up and let you know. 

I do know that the problems lie in minute details. I had a saddler stitch a saw hook onto my Buckingham harness. I was referred to this saddler by the Buckingham distributor. The saddle was declared unfit for the tree climbing comp because of the modification. The distributor is on the rules commitee for the tcc. What the???? 

Ah well, I needed a good excuse to buy another harness anyway.....


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## murphy4trees (Apr 20, 2009)

*Not recommended*

I would not use that loopie for a friction saver.

It's not rates for life support.... Doesn't mean its not safe... its just not extra safe... I use them for redirects occasionally, thinking my life is not dependent on this sling. They melt FAST... that shouldn;t be much of a problem either if used properly and the rigging is set up right, but why take a chance when there are so many other options... 

SO the real problem with that is set up is practicality, not so much safety.. Having a stiff friction saver will tend to keep the ring from getting caught in tight crotches... 

Big jon gave me one of his spliced jobs made from safety blue a few years ago. I don't use it very often, and he did... always check the crotch by pulling it out beforehand to make sure it doesn't get stuck... That loopie you plan on using will cause the ring to get stuck in a lot more crotches, reducing your options which will slow you down a lot over time..


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## ATH (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

Here are some answers to questions/issues raised:

*Ghillie: I already have a set of fids. Are you saying you can substitute something cheaper or that the Menards pick works better?

*Treemandan: you made me go back and look...the WLL depends on how the strap is used. On p. 59 of the new catalog it looks like the WLL is only 960lbs at the girths. I guess that is the final answer. Not good.

*Raymond: I got it stuck once and had to throw a new line and reclimb to get it down. I should always send up the throw line with it. I do if it is questionable. If things don't go right getting it down, I can start over and try it again - or worst case, put the climbing line back in and climb up to it, re-tie without it and rapp down.

*outofmytree: As this is, I have not altered anything - just put 2 approved components together. Obviously stitching it would be an alteration... To your other questions: Steel rings. I damaged the original strap with my handsaw - just glazed it. I still used it for a while as there was just some fringed webbing, but every time I used it, I thought better about it and finally broke down (wised up!) and bought a new one. This idea was just trying to salvage something.

*murphy: several good points there all to be taken into advisement.

Bottomline goes back to the correction treemandan brought up: The strap is NOT adequate for life support. Oh well, it was a good idea for a day or 2 that never got used.

So what do I do with the steel rings now? Guess I'll splice some Arbormaster if nothing else comes up.


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

ATH said:


> Thanks for all of the replies guys.
> 
> Here are some answers to questions/issues raised:
> 
> ...




The tubular fids will give you fits in 16 strand (read worthless), I ended up making a fid out of 14 ga copper wire soldered together to double it and a strand of core material. Works great.

The picks are for pulling cover strands for tapering and for extracting the core. I think my set of 6 picks was around $3 and take a lot of frustration out of the job. Here is a picture of one of the picks.







It came from my "Rainy days splicing" thread which has close up pictures of my wire fid ( I got the idea from Moray, I cannot take credit.)

I think splicing friction savers out of rope is the way to go. At least I am going to give it a try, probably pretty soon with all this crappy weather we have been getting.


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

BTW, I think to make a eye and eye 16 strand sling, your finished product would have to be at least 55" long center of eye to center of eye.

Tenex might be a better choice, with a locking brummel, you can make shorter slings and the splice is WAY easier. Plus you should be able to make it out of 19mm cord so it would be more durable.


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## tree md (Apr 21, 2009)

Raymond said:


> I bought one like 4 years ago from Sherrill but I've never used it.
> Was always afraid it would not come down when I was done.
> I figure the first time I used them and it got stuck would be the last.
> 
> ...



Never had a problem with mine coming out Ray. I just use a well dressed figure eight knot. Works like a charm.


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## outofmytree (Apr 21, 2009)

ATH said:


> *outofmytree: As this is, I have not altered anything - just put 2 approved components together. Obviously stitching it would be an alteration... To your other questions: Steel rings. I damaged the original strap with my handsaw - just glazed it. I still used it for a while as there was just some fringed webbing, but every time I used it, I thought better about it and finally broke down (wised up!) and bought a new one. This idea was just trying to salvage something.




The alteration is when you remove them from the original strap. 

Took my slow brain a while to figure out why they might get stuck in a crotch...Doh! After finally getting the point I cant see a use for those rings. Unless you paint em to look like donuts and leave em on the dashboard where ya groundie can see me...


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## Raymond (Apr 21, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The alteration is when you remove them from the original strap.
> 
> Took my slow brain a while to figure out why they might get stuck in a crotch...Doh! After finally getting the point I cant see a use for those rings. Unless you paint em to look like donuts and leave em on the dashboard where ya groundie can see me...


I love donuts...


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## Ghillie (Apr 21, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The alteration is when you remove them from the original strap.
> 
> Took my slow brain a while to figure out why they might get stuck in a crotch...Doh! After finally getting the point I cant see a use for those rings. Unless you paint em to look like donuts and leave em on the dashboard where ya groundie can see me...




What do you consider it if you buy rings from Sherrill or Wesspur and make your own rope friction saver? I am not saying it is not an alteration, I am just asking from your viewpoint and location.


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## Marty B (Apr 21, 2009)

*Beer Knot*

If the stap material is hollow you could also use a Beer knot to close the loop instead of stitching. Beer knot is simple and it can't be pull apart. I use the tube material for redirects for my climbing line. How to tie a beer knot?......First tie a loose overhand knot about 12" from one end of the tube material. Next you push the other end of the tube material into the end with the loose overhand knot, about 12". Now roll the loose overhand knot so it ends up in the middle of the doubled up tubes. You should have 6" of doubled material on either side of the overhand knot. All you have to do is pull the overhand knot tight an you have a beer knot.


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## YankeeinSC (Apr 22, 2009)

murphy4trees said:


> They melt FAST...



Trying to save time last fall, we were hogging down a red oak I was crotch rigging the main trunk down in almost too big sections. I got below the last natural crotch and rigged a block as a false crotch. Somehow when I pushed the very next section off, the pulley twisted so that the bull rope was running on the webbing. The ground guys let it run about 2 feet to clear my toes and I thought they dropped it to the ground. The next thing I heard was the metal pulley hitting the deck. Just a little friction! I couldn't believe how quick the websling turned to mush pulled apart and left melted streamers trailing behind the ground-ward pulley.

I'll pay Old man Buckingham.


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## tree md (Apr 22, 2009)

:agree2:


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## randyg (Apr 23, 2009)

YankeeinSC said:


> Trying to save time last fall, we were hogging down a red oak I was crotch rigging the main trunk down in almost too big sections. I got below the last natural crotch and rigged a block as a false crotch. Somehow when I pushed the very next section off, the pulley twisted so that the bull rope was running on the webbing. The ground guys let it run about 2 feet to clear my toes and I thought they dropped it to the ground. The next thing I heard was the metal pulley hitting the deck. Just a little friction! I couldn't believe how quick the websling turned to mush pulled apart and left melted streamers trailing behind the ground-ward pulley.
> 
> I'll pay Old man Buckingham.



Yikes! Hadn't thought much about it but now I'm thinkin that first picture in this thread looks like a big fat NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA DUDE. . .


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## elmnut (May 2, 2009)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> One observation would be the load rating on your stap from Sherrill. I would be looking for a rating of at minimum 5000 lbs. to 6500 lbs. . The life you save may be your own.



I have heard the 5,500 lb rating for life support rigging


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## outofmytree (May 5, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> What do you consider it if you buy rings from Sherrill or Wesspur and make your own rope friction saver? I am not saying it is not an alteration, I am just asking from your viewpoint and location.



As far as regulations here are concerned, it is alteration of original spec' by someone outside the manufacturer/repairer/distributor chain that is deemed unsafe. So if you have the "äppropriate qualifications" making your own friction saver is fine. Personally I wonder where this leaves you when tying a knot in a piece of rope!

On the subject of friction savers I used one whilst rescue training recently that was "made" by the trainer who won the state event this year with a pulley/maillon on one side and a 4 way krab on the other. It may have been "ïllegal" but wow, what a great smooth climb. I feel the need to "adjust" something in my own kit now......


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## Bearcreek (May 5, 2009)

Whats a 4 way krab?


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## Ghillie (May 5, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> ...Personally I wonder where this leaves you when tying a knot in a piece of rope!....



That is a very good question.


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## Slvrmple72 (May 5, 2009)

A lawyer who can convince a jury that a piece of rope should in no way be tied into a knot for any reason of life support and therefore the manufacturer cannot be held responsible for said failure of rope due to knot weakness is gonna have to be one heck of a lawyer! A splice is so much neater though!


I have a length of throwline on my crotchsaver, when I am done I yank my line out of the big ring and the knot stops it in the little ring and I lower it down with the throwline. Piece of pie, easy as cake!


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## outofmytree (May 11, 2009)

Bearcreek said:


> Whats a 4 way krab?



4 way karabiner. Or if you count the other way, a 3 way karabiner with opeing the gate as the 4th action...


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## Ekka (May 12, 2009)

Ghillie said:


> That is a very good question.



There is a lot of misinformation spread here. It wouldn't be the first time some-one at a TCC got it wrong, not so long ago in Queensland the "officials" stopped a Kiwi using an ART Rope Guide ... because they had not seen one before and it was not stamped with a rating etc like a carabiner. 

Friction savers are not rigging anyway, they are life support.

The reason why climbing ropes for life support are rated at 5400lbs is to make allowances for knots and wear/tear.

The making of your own FS is completely viable and "legal" (although that is incorrect terminology) providing the components such as the "loop" or "rope" are 5400lbs min. How many make their own flip lines? I do, you can buy the snaps and make your own no problem.

Anyone running a climbing comp, arborcamp or their own private GTG has the right to instill any rule they like, just because it was done incorrectly based on misinformation doesn't mean it was really wrong. I was once challenged that my flip line wasn't a bought one etc, however the components were above the 5400lb minimum, the responsibility of tying knots lies with the climber, what is a climber doing up a tree if they cannot tie knots?


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