# Log removal from "mountain"



## onionman (Jan 24, 2005)

newbie needs advice onto how to remove apx 300 cedar logs off of a 18 acre
hillside. The slope is apx 70 degrees and it is 600 feet to the road below.
I was thinking of riggigng some kind of "zip" line but have no idea what type /size cable I need or the max span that it can be tensioned.
Anyone have any sugestions on the best way to try and do this?
onionman


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

Wow. I wanna hear about this.


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## onionman (Jan 24, 2005)

What do u want to here? "Help"


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

No, this sounds like hard core logging, and I would love to learn more about it. I'm with you, somebody school us!


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## glens (Jan 24, 2005)

The jobsite might have to been "seen" better before much advice can be given.&nbsp; Some pictures and/or more detailed descriptions should be provided, I'd think.

Glen


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## onionman (Jan 24, 2005)

I don't have pics but these gps points are in the middle of the ridge 
longitude-82.986183
latitude36.12863 
It is wooded, complete with many pine dead falls. gulleys big enough to hide a house
The one time I got a 4 wheeler on top I came back down sliding on top of the leaves.
had to bump a tree to stop! 
Onion


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## bwalker (Jan 24, 2005)

A skidder with chains and the diffs locked....and a big set of balls.
In all seriousness are the trees close to the ridgline, in the middle or disperesed all over the slope? I have worked on steep ground before(not that steep) and what we did was to fall the trees pointing down hill then winch them up hill to a skidder on the ridge line. The skidder would back up to a tree to keep it from accidently being pulled down hill. We also cut the stumps in a manner the allowed the logs to slide up and over them when being pulled up hill.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 24, 2005)

My first question would be what size are the logs? Are they going to be turned into lumber or just removed? Are you clear cutting the hill side? How much room do you have by the road, is the road public or can you work IN the road? I am going to assume that the ''road'' is privet and under your controll. Next I am going to assume that you are NOT clear cutting the hillside but rather "select" cutting it instead (clear cuts are MUCH easier from a technical stand point however they are generally NOT the best option from an environmental stand point). When working boundries like what you are describing I generally start falling timber at the BOTTOM of the hill TOWARDS the road. I then limb and top the timber in the road and push the slash into a pile out of my way with either the skidder or the dozer. Continue to work you're way up the hill (I should mention that I DO NOT use an open face cut in these situations as I want the tree to break free from the stump and fall down hill. The steeper the ground the farther the tree will "fly" before contacting the ground. I do use the bore cut here because I want the tree's momentum to carry it down hill.) You have to be extreamly carefull falling timber on steep ground as it is REAL easy to get hurt!!! ALWAYS STAND UP HILL WHEN MAKING THE BACK CUT!!! That point as obvious as it may seem cannot be stressed enough. On ground like that with poplar and white pine I can normally "throw" the tree a good 75' feet or so from the stump using that technique. I like a good old 45 degree face and a slightly thinner than normal hinge but it is dangerous. I also run 150' main line on the skidder. Depending on HOW steep the ground is and weither or not I can access the top of the hill or mountain I'll take the dozer up and push the trees (after they have been limbed and toped) to a point where the skidder can reach them. Hope this helps.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 24, 2005)

Almost forgot a humbolt norrmally gets the nod here.


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## bwalker (Jan 24, 2005)

Ryan, Are you skidding the trees full length? We always fell the ones on the top down hill, and the ones at the bottom up hill so the could be skidded out easier. Of course we where not dealing with 600 foot hills. Also the fallers always used a open face cut on the ones closest to the ridgline so they didnt go flying half way down the hill.
I agree with you that working on steep gorund is dangerous. I did a few weeks of this type of work this falls bucking and limbing for a faller. You really have to pay attention to what is under tension and what is not and Always stay on the up hill side.


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## onionman (Jan 24, 2005)

the trees are disperesed . Will be trying to put a roof over my head with them.
most are 8-10" in dia and will make 1-2 8' logs. It is a country road with 10-20 cars a day passing by so I can use the side for some work and the fields across for stacking .Wish I had a skidder or dozer..but piggy bank says no ...
I was thinking of trying to "slide" the logs down a cable like a cable car. Drag the logs to a cable,slide them down, and then move the cable to the next section.
Onion


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

http://www.*********************/gtree12ml.jpg


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## caryr (Jan 24, 2005)




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## MasterBlaster (Jan 24, 2005)

http://www.*********************/SmithandWatsonDonkeyatLandingwCrew_unknown.jpg


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## P_woozel (Jan 24, 2005)

I was thinking 70 degrees, thats steep alright. Getting ahold of a tower yarder might be the easiest. Or talk to the guys out your way who use skidders they will know whats cool to yard on and whats not. If they have Yoders out that way that would be an easy way to go, though you will still need to rig tail trees. :umpkin:


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## P_woozel (Jan 24, 2005)

Sorry, I missed the $$ part. You will need some way to sag and lift your mainline, also do you really want to be moving 600' of wire around, but the cost of Amsteel or similar line isnt going to be cheap either. If I saw the ground I could come up with a inexpensive but labor intensive yarding system for you.


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## onionman (Jan 25, 2005)

thanks all for your input. have tried to attach a pic will see if it comes through.

looks kind of flat in the photo

Onion


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 25, 2005)

You'll get some ideas here:

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/yarding/yarding.html


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## Stumper (Jan 25, 2005)

Ummmmmm..... You said 10" diameter logs 8' long? If there wasn't a typo there then lets not make this overly complex. Just throw them down the hill. With practice you can get real good at hitting a downed log and shooting the goods 40-100 feet per throw.


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## Newfie (Jan 25, 2005)

With no budget for the proper equipment I would say Justin's idea is the best so far.

But considering you are building a house, maybe you NEED to involve some equipment. Gonna dig the cellar hole with a shovel and wheelbarrow?


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## Timberjackboy (Jan 25, 2005)

Frig man Hire a helecopter, along here they are flying back and fourth all day long patrolling the border, if ya see one flying by flag it down boys. They will be gald to help ya i bet. Try danceing around in camo and waving a toy gun if that don't work, im sur ethey will stop.


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## onionman (Jan 25, 2005)

thanks all, 
The chopper Does give me an ideal. think I will run up some ballons , this hill top is on the filght path for training piolts in some of the big old prop cargo planes in ground hugging radar. Maybe they will snag a few and drag them on down for me!
leaving out at 5 in the morning, chips should be flying by noon....
later
Onion


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## Pacific (Jan 27, 2005)

What do you plan on doing with wood that small ???

Thats not even worth cutting or in this area it would be a big waste of time. 

As said its hard to tell what your dealing with without pictures or physically being there. You have to try get some pictures so we can see I can't picture a 70% slope. I know what steep is because here on the West Coast of B.C. we have some of the steepest conditions to work on.

With wood that small you probably could cut the logs into the short lengths and have a army of students from your local highschools working for minimum wage they can pack all your logs down the hill  

I don't know what I can suggest that would be cost effective because wood that small has no timber value at all. For the effort put into hauling the wood down the hill may cost you way more than its worth. I know the local bandsaw mills won't even look at wood that small.


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## John Ellison (Jan 27, 2005)

I have seen vertical log buildings in the interior of B.C. that were made from smaller logs than what he is planning on using. 

John


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 27, 2005)

Maybe this?


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## Newfie (Jan 27, 2005)

Pacific said:


> What do you plan on doing with wood that small ???
> 
> Thats not even worth cutting or in this area it would be a big waste of time.
> 
> I don't know what I can suggest that would be cost effective because wood that small has no timber value at all. For the effort put into hauling the wood down the hill may cost you way more than its worth. I know the local bandsaw mills won't even look at wood that small.




DUDE, there is a logging world outside of BC that is much different than yours. Your situation is the exception rather than the norm,deal with that fact and move on. 
The rest of us don't hoe-chuck all but trailer length logs into piles and burn them. We send them to commercial mills and they get turned into millions of board feet of lumber.


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## onionman (Jan 28, 2005)

The reason I can get this cedar is that it was to hard to get to for the past 120 years... will be using it to build a pur da piece style og log cabin.
Wish I could get some of the large westen cedar.. but thats not to be.
The cedar trees we have in east tn. just normally don't get that big.I have a few that will go 28 " dbh but most have so many splits/damage that are not of use.
managed to get a few cut and down to the stacking area with out any excitment.
Then went to start and stack them and managed to tear of the hitch to the 4 wheeler and break the winch off the arch I made..( all on level ground)
Time to break out the welder
ONion


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## Pacific (Jan 28, 2005)

I have been thinking about your situation is there any way of getting a trailer up the hill something like a tandem axle boat trailer ? 

You slap some sort of bunks on the trailer so it will hold the logs then put maybe 2 ton of wood on it then lower it down the hill with a winch or some kind of tractor. If you have a fairly good path down the hill you can skid all the logs to the side of it then load up the trailer and take it down the hill.

If you can get a vehical up the slope something like a old 4x4 3/4 ton put a A frame arch on the back and use the truck as a skidder you can skid the wood down the hill. 

This is what you need www.threelakestruck.com/Images/Log/75Iron Mule.jpg


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## onionman (Jan 29, 2005)

thanks for the link.
should be meeting a guy with a dozer in a week or so to see about a few "roads"
Onion


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2005)

Pacific, While Iron Mules are great machines steep ground isnt their forte'.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 29, 2005)

Ever seen this:

http://www.tiltonequipment.com/Jonsered/Tilton_Jonsered_iron_horse_lpage.html


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## Pacific (Jan 29, 2005)

Forwarders are not really used much here on the coast but they are in the interior of B.C. . 

I was thinking if Onion cold decked his wood he could have a contractor with a forwarder to come in and haul it down the hill. I can see that Iron Mule being tippy its tires are pretty narrow and it looks top heavy.


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## Newfie (Jan 29, 2005)

That iron horse thing from jonsered goes for over $10k. For that he could get a used cable skidder.


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## onionman (Jan 29, 2005)

That looks interesting
Onion


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## canguy21 (Jan 29, 2005)

Alberta Forestry used the Iron Horse on fire lines to haul supplies and water. Slung them in by chopper. Apparently they gave up the idea after they lost too many when the fire turned.
High lead and balloon logging are used on the B.C. coast but like Pacific says they are dealing with much tougher terrain and big timber. There really is little market there for 8" to 10" logs except for pulp, firewood and fence posts. This is not too diss anyone. You work with what you have available. Good luck on yer Abe Lincoln home!!


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## John Ellison (Jan 30, 2005)

If there is anywhere at the top or back end of the property that you can see the road then you could staple them out. Basically you would have wire rope that would be choked in a tree at the top (guyed) and then go to the bottom, thru a block and then to your truck or? Might need another piece of line and another block to get a good tightline. This is your skyline. Did I mention you need two people? Anyway the donkey puncher/ truck driver slacks the skyline down and the hooker at the top end gets the line over a log and drives a large staple over the line and into the end of the log. He then runs for his life while giving the signal to go ahead on er. The D.P. gets a good tightline and the log flies down the skyline untill it hits a cable clamp and comes off. If you have enough deflection and lift this would work slick. Would also be a good way to get hurt if your not careful. Its a poor mans reverse shotgun carridge.

John


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## onionman (Jan 30, 2005)

John,
What kind of staple? where would I buy them? This is what I was thinking of doing with a pulley and a chocker. Any ideal on what size/type cable I would need to use?
Onion


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## John Ellison (Jan 30, 2005)

Onion
We would still need more specifics on your land. If you did have a road built, would it have any other future use? Are most of your logs at the top, middle or lower. Can you easily bunch most of them to several different locations? Are there any places at the top where you can see the lower part without a lot of trees and limbs being in the way? Am still not sure how steep it really is. If you had a line twenty feet high in a large tree at the top and then straight away to the base of a large tree at the bottom, would the line be at a 45deg. angle or? How far off the ground would the line be in the middle? This is very important. Also how big are your largest logs again? This is fast and cheap but will only work under certain conditions.

John


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## IndyIan (Feb 8, 2005)

Onion, 
I did a little white cedar logging at my place on a steep slope. Not nearly as long as yours but still steep enough to be challanging with the atv and some parts way too steep for anything but me. For stuff as small as your talking I would just put a chain around them and drag them myself to the atv. Downhill it was pretty easy. Now I can't see doing this for each log down your whole hill but if you can get some access points that are atv accessible it might work. Also cut around there first, you might get all you need sooner than you think. 

It was pretty hard to cut selectively as well since cedar here grow very densely so I cut small patches with trails to some of the trees I specifically wanted. Its good practice for your directional felling too since hitting that 4' gap 50' out would save alot of effort dealing with a hung tree. I have a good cache of fence posts now too!

Once on flat ground we just manhandled most logs into a trailer, some bigger ones we used a couple pullies to drag them up. Not easy but cheap! We looked into getting a guy to skid them but it wasn't going to be worth it for a a few thousand board feet. I do like the staple skidding idea too, would be neat to see. 

Ian


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## onionman (Feb 8, 2005)

The staple concept is good.The first small log went down like a rocket. got brave and tried a large one and then problems started. I broke chain,pulleys and at last the cable trying to get enough tension on the cable to get the log to slide !
The concept works well but I think the quality of the staples was poor ( metal to soft)
the cable cut thru one staple (5/16 shank dia.) after only 20 ' of slide ! The rest of the stuff I used is holding up not guess I broke all of the weak links. Will try again in a couple of weeks , may try and get some photos once I get the bugs worked out.
thanks every one
Onion


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## daddieslilgirl (Mar 26, 2005)

are you crazy? first you cant shove trees downhill on dirt, you need snow and ice and even then its dangerous! get a dozer and someone who knows how to build roads. my dad scares the [email protected]# out of me! the last lot we worked was more than 3000 ft straight up but roads criss crossing, let me tell ya we cant work it in the winter its way too steep! not even to the second level or the skidder would roll and someone would get hurt! so we go back next spring! whatever you decide and theres lots of good advice here be VERY VERY careful!


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 26, 2005)

Call me...I'll come out show you how to rig a winching system that is man portable and easy to use. 300 Trees Cedar depending on dia and length might run 5-10 working days allowing for clean up and weather. Nothing good old block and trackle can't do...proved more times then I can count.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 26, 2005)

Onion,
I gather they are eastern red cedar like we got in KY? A couple of guys could do it in a few days....Use a capstan winch and fiber rope...forget the cabling and expensive items....start at the furthest point up the hil cut all the trees to be removed down, cut the slash up good then rig out from a winching point about 200ft down the hill. Use a piece of plate steel with a bend at one end to make the plate slide over the under brush and junk. carry or roll as many logs as you can tie on to this piece of plate over to it and pull away down the hill. Don't run trucks or atv's into the woods keep the impact as low as possible. Your will make goodtime. Just remember in the old day in the app. mountains men worked hard for less.


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 26, 2005)

By the way Eastern red cedar has one great property ....It's lite. two men on a 8.5ft log 14in is not that big a feat to move from place to place on their sholders....350-400lbs depending on moisture in the log and all..


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## daddieslilgirl (Mar 26, 2005)

oh hell im not trying to piss anyone off never used the block and tacle that was for motors! we have however used ladders to bring a tree back getting the choker as high as possible oh definately not safe but we didnt want it on the electric lines or phones(my dad is great at that.. long story lol) what a mess it worked ive done it before for my old boss and at that time i wasnt even sure how to drive a skidder!!!! talk about stupid! oh well it was my baby cat 318! and just for curiosity i have no clue what youre talking about! my dad is old school and ive never heard of some of the things youre speaking about maybe i just wasnt listening, keep talking! im learning


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## RatliffLogging (Mar 26, 2005)

Well we are head on into low impact logging....Old school like skills used in 1700's not old school like 1900's. Other then using a chainsaw powered capstan winch we try to do it the really old ways. Seems the ways then were far lower impact then could ever be explained. send me your email address to [email protected] and I will draw you a simple picture scan it and email it to you.
Thanks


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