# Woodbug or Alaskan type?



## arojay (Apr 13, 2008)

I am thinking of milling some 2 side logs for a building project. I am a logger so I have logs and I would expect to mill the logs on landings. Logs will be standing dry/beetle kill white spruce 20 to 40 feet long, butts likely in the 22 inch maximum diameter class. There is a Woodbug rig for sale locally with 60 feet of carriage that got me thinking about the pros and cons of the different types. Folks I know who have used bandmills on this local timber say that the feed rate has to be slowed considerably to avoid inaccuracy because of a number of factors with the wood. Mobile dimensions and other circular mills work but, I'm not really interested in milling as a business. All opinions welcome.


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 13, 2008)

*MotorSeven where are you?*

Rick in TN is the woodbug man. Perhaps he can speak to your question


----------



## woodshop (Apr 13, 2008)

arojay said:


> ... Folks I know who have used bandmills on this local timber say that the feed rate has to be slowed considerably to avoid inaccuracy because of a number of factors with the wood...



I'm curious exactly what you mean here. Spruce is not all that difficult to mill with a properly set up bandmill with a sharp blade and proper tension etc. If you're not planning on milling anything after these logs, go cheap... $200 gets you a 36" alaskan mill. Just remember with any chainsaw mill (including the woodbug) you lose a quarter inch of log in kerf waste every cut. That means for every 4-5 boards, you get an extra board with a band. 

If you havn't read this yet, it gives an admittedly biased, but fairly thorough view of one option if you plan to milling more logs down the road as I do. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=19709


----------



## arojay (Apr 13, 2008)

Woodshop: What I am told is that spruce is very slow growing here because of short growing season. Wood is very dense for spruce. It is also dry, spruce beetle killed for the most part. The story is that the small bandmills like wood-mizer and norwoods have lots of waving and waning unless feed rates are slowed to the point of competing with chainsaw mills. I do know that fellows who also saw Sitka spruce from the coast at this latitude don't have these problems with the coastal logs. Like I said, I haven't tried it myself, just what I hear from users. Portability is probably one of my main things.


----------



## AlasKarl (Apr 13, 2008)

Never heard of the http://www.woodbug.com/, they seem to know what they are talking about (but so does all advertising). Sure looks like an interesting concept, maybe someone who runs a woodbug can chime in.


----------



## VT-Woodchuck (Apr 13, 2008)

I have an Alaskan, a Woodbug and I'm having a bandsaw mill built for me next spring. I will then be able to talk intelligently about all three. Right now I like the Woodbug over the Alaskan EXCEPT when I run into a log too big for the bug. Then I use the Alaskan to cut cants to put on the WB. Knotty spruce can be tough to cut with any rig but I find the chainsaw mills handle it better than my neighbors bandsaw mill. I'm sure others will disagree. If I had a WB available at a reasonable price, I would own it!
Let us know what you do and how you like your choice.


----------



## slabmaster (Apr 13, 2008)

woodshop said:


> I'm curious exactly what you mean here. Spruce is not all that difficult to mill with a properly set up bandmill with a sharp blade and proper tension etc. If you're not planning on milling anything after these logs, go cheap... $200 gets you a 36" alaskan mill. Just remember with any chainsaw mill (including the woodbug) you lose a quarter inch of log in kerf waste every cut. That means for every 4-5 boards, you get an extra board with bandmill.////////// The truth is that what you don't get in sawdust,you end up with planer chips,as the bandmill wanders more than a chainsaw does.So you really don't end up with any more lumber using a bandmill after it is plained.Especually with smaller logs.You can get what is called timber bind on a bandmill.So the lumber ends up thicker in the middle of the board,which is refered to as [wagon tongue]. THat's why i use a csm over a bandmill.I'd rather have a little more sawdust on the ground than beating my plainer to death trying to correct the uneveness of the bandmilled lumber.Mark


----------



## woodshop (Apr 13, 2008)

slabmaster said:


> ...The truth is that what you don't get in sawdust,you end up with planer chips,as the bandmill wanders more than a chainsaw does.So you really don't end up with any more lumber using a bandmill after it is plained. Especually with smaller logs. You can get what is called timber bind on a bandmill. So the lumber ends up thicker in the middle of the board,which is refered to as [wagon tongue]. THat's why i use a csm over a bandmill. I'd rather have a little more sawdust on the ground than beating my plainer to death trying to correct the uneveness of the bandmilled lumber.Mark



No offence intended towards ya slabmaster, but from my experience, and many a sawyer I've talked to over the years, there is little "truth" in any of what you state above. I don't know... maybe where you come from folks don't know how to set up a bandmill (tension, alignment) so the blade doesn't wander as much as you say it does, or produce that "wagon tongue" even in knotty difficult logs. If you have to "beat your planer to death" correcting the "unevenness" of bandmilled lumber, there is something wrong with the bandmill. I've milled thousands of feet of all kinds of wood mostly with my little handheld Ripsaw bandmill, but also with a csm. On average, my worst bandsawn boards are usually better than my best chainsawn boards as far as smoothness of the board. Thus the chainsawn boards usually take MORE passes through the planer than the bandsawn boards to get down to S4S for the woodshop, not less as you say. That's on top of taking a quarter inch of kerf to begin with. Not trying to pull anybodies chain (pun intended ) , but in my humble experience, you got the bandsaw/chainsaw mill thing backwards. A properly set up bandsaw mill will cut more boards, and IN GENERAL smoother ones than a chainsaw mill. If you look close at how the rings line up in the end of this log, and thus how little kerf was taken for these 4 cuts, you can see what I'm talking about. 






btw, I understand not everybody wants or can justify the cost of a large cast iron planer, but if you're using one of those lunchbox portable planers to turn roughsawn lumber into S4S dimensioned lumber, you better take it easy. They're just not designed to have hundreds of feet of rough lumber run through them. You'll end up beating the bearings to death and wearing those universal motors out quick if you're gonna do that all day long.


----------



## slabmaster (Apr 14, 2008)

woodshop said:


> No offence intended towards ya slabmaster, but from my experience, and many a sawyer I've talked to over the years, there is little "truth" in any of what you state above. I don't know... maybe where you come from folks don't know how to set up a bandmill (tension, alignment) so the blade doesn't wander as much as you say it does, or produce that "wagon tongue" even in knotty difficult logs. If you have to "beat your planer to death" correcting the "unevenness" of bandmilled lumber, there is something wrong with the bandmill. I've milled thousands of feet of all kinds of wood mostly with my little handheld Ripsaw bandmill, but also with a csm. On average, my worst bandsawn boards are usually better than my best chainsawn boards as far as smoothness of the board. Thus the chainsawn boards usually take MORE passes through the planer than the bandsawn boards to get down to S4S for the woodshop, not less as you say. That's on top of taking a quarter inch of kerf to begin with. Not trying to pull anybodies chain (pun intended ) , but in my humble experience, you got the bandsaw/chainsaw mill thing backwards. A properly set up bandsaw mill will cut more boards, and IN GENERAL smoother ones than a chainsaw mill. If you look close at how the rings line up in the end of this log, and thus how little kerf was taken for these 4 cuts, you can see what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That picture your showing is a large log.I simply stated that smaller logs don't fare too well in a bandmill.I don't mill over 24" logs too often,and never beat on a cheap planer all day long as you suggested.I have a three knife planer that will work hard if i want it to,but my boards off my csm don't wagon tongue.so it isn't worked hard at all.In fact, most people that see my lumber think it's already plained right off my csm. Mark


----------



## slabmaster (Apr 14, 2008)

woodshop said:


> No offence intended towards ya slabmaster, but from my experience, and many a sawyer I've talked to over the years, there is little "truth" in any of what you state above. I don't know... maybe where you come from folks don't know how to set up a bandmill (tension, alignment) so the blade doesn't wander as much as you say it does, or produce that "wagon tongue" even in knotty difficult logs. If you have to "beat your planer to death" correcting the "unevenness" of bandmilled lumber, there is something wrong with the bandmill. I've milled thousands of feet of all kinds of wood mostly with my little handheld Ripsaw bandmill, but also with a csm. On average, my worst bandsawn boards are usually better than my best chainsawn boards as far as smoothness of the board. Thus the chainsawn boards usually take MORE passes through the planer than the bandsawn boards to get down to S4S for the woodshop, not less as you say. That's on top of taking a quarter inch of kerf to begin with. Not trying to pull anybodies chain (pun intended ) , but in my humble experience, you got the bandsaw/chainsaw mill thing backwards. A properly set up bandsaw mill will cut more boards, and IN GENERAL smoother ones than a chainsaw mill. If you look close at how the rings line up in the end of this log, and thus how little kerf was taken for these 4 cuts, you can see what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even with that large log your cutting in the picture,if you look about half way down the top you can see the rise in the middle of the log.That's the wagon tongue effect you get from a bandmill.A thinner blade will never cut a flatter board than a wide blade.Bandblades aren't even close to being as wide or stable in the cut as chainsaw bar and chain width.It's common since,that a scroll saw won't cut as strait as a hand saw in the cut because it isn't as wide or stable going down the slab.Mark


----------



## MotorSeven (Apr 14, 2008)

60' of Woodbug????....wowdroolwow! Man you could make some killer beams with that rig. Anyway, if you are just taking off 2 sides(slabs) & doing some dimensional lumber for yourself, the 'bug would work fine. I have never used an Alaskan, but reading here convinces me that is a good system also. Like VT said, the 'bug has a 20" max diameter, so you will have to pick on the smaller stuff. What are you building...cabin/house/barn & what size? Since you are a logger, moving the logs around is not an issue? I run an 066, & i am thinking for alot of big/long logs i would go with an 088(or a non-Stihl equivalent). A band wil most definatly do the job & it may be a competive price compared to 6 sections of 'bug. 
RD


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 14, 2008)

Wow! This thread should get to be fun to watch. By the way Slabmaster, I stand with ya. And I do own both a bandmill and a chainsaw mill.

Rodney


----------



## MJR (Apr 14, 2008)

A csm seems perfect for you. I would dig deeper into the issues with the band saw millers around you. The more you know the better. The best of luck.


----------



## woodshop (Apr 14, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> Wow! This thread should get to be fun to watch. By the way Slabmaster, I stand with ya. And I do own both a bandmill and a chainsaw mill. Rodney



"fun to watch?" Sorry to ruin your spectacle there Rodney, but you can sit back down, we're just exchanging ideas and experiences here. The issue I was trying to make was that in general, and I stress the word general, most sawyers agree that a bandsaw will slice more usable lumber from a given log than a chainsaw mill will however smooth the surface is. Especially taking into concideration the planing that the boards then need since in my experience my chainsawn boards need more planing than my bandsawn boards do. My point was that contrary to slabmasters experience, mine has been that a bandsaw will indeed saw flat true boards IF it is set up right, AND it has a sharp blade in it. Small logs, large logs... doesn't matter what size the logs are. As soon as my blades start to dull, sure it starts to wander just like the bandsaws in my woodshop do when the blades get dull. AND just like a chainsaw mill will when the chain gets dull. Slabmaster pointed out that the top of that log in my pic was not true and flat which proved his point that a bandsaw won't slice true. Well, the top of that cant, as well as the vertical side of that cant you see in the pic, was sawn with my chainsaw mill, not my Ripsaw bandsaw!! I saw my logs into cants with a csm first before I attack them with my bandsaw. Saves bandsaw blades. Along those lines however, I agree with slabmaster that a properly set up csm with a good wide guide will slice flat lumber, and if you use special ripping chain designed to leave a smooth cut, you can get some surprising results. I also agree than the wider the blade, the more stable and true (in general, lots of other variables there). But in general a csm smoother and more yield than a properly set up bandmill? Can't agree with that one... my experience has shown me different. 

So Rodney, you can "stand" anywhere ya like, but you won't convince me or most others that your csm gets you better yield than that bandsaw you have. If it does, you're doing something wrong, and probably wasting a lot of time and wood in the process.


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 14, 2008)

Woodshp, I'm not going to mix many word's with you. I fully unerstand that you're the dude here with the "golden tongue or golden fingers" or ever what you want to call it. I also understand you got more than you share of "yes men" here. So the thing is, I don't find a thing wrong with what Slabmaster was saying. I do however, have a little trouble with all you called the man. So, if you want to jump on me, well just come on. I'm not a "yes man" and will tell you just where you can jump.

Hope this helps
Rodney


----------



## Nikko (Apr 15, 2008)

Just curious how long the chainsaw bar needs to be for a Woodbug?


----------



## MJR (Apr 15, 2008)

The debate on mill types has been well said many times here. I am surprised no one has brought up a swing mill yet. The person asking the question pointed out he has one project in which he will be milling only two sides of the log. He is a logger so he must have some decent saws. A csm seems to be a perfect fit with the lowest capital expense. Nikko, use the search option here. There is some great information posted by the people responding to your post. As you can tell by their passion in their responses they are very good with the equipment they run.


----------



## slabmaster (Apr 15, 2008)

Nikko said:


> Just curious how long the chainsaw bar needs to be for a Woodbug?



There are 2 woodbug sizes.Your bar can be 24" or greater for the regular woodbug and largest dia. log it can cut is 20".The baby bug can use a smaller bar 16" and larger and will cut a 11" log or smaller dia.Hope this helps,Mark


----------



## MotorSeven (Apr 15, 2008)

Nikko said:


> Just curious how long the chainsaw bar needs to be for a Woodbug?




30"


----------



## MotorSeven (Apr 15, 2008)

Slab, a 24" is too short since you need a few inches on the nose to go in the track & alot more above the sled where the saw attaches. 28 or 29" min but you could use longer than 30" if you had one laying around. It just has to be drilled for the sled mounting bolts. 











RD


----------



## Nikko (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the info. I believe the mill is the larger one and we found it in a barn, minus the sled etc. I picked up a used 33" bar yesterday hoping it would work - sounds like it will.

Thanks again.


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 15, 2008)

*I think the argument here boils down to this*

In my experience...a bandmill will generally cut smoother boards than a chainsaw mill. A chainsaw mill will generally cut flatter boards than a bandmill. This is with sharp cutters on both mills and both properly set up. If you think about it for a minute this makes sense. There is much less flex in a chainsaw bar than there is in a bandmill blade. There is much less kerf on a bandmill blade and the set is small and stiff. Both mills can produce good lumber and there is a place for both of them. Try getting a bandmill on the side of one of these mountains around here. Some places are just not accessible. I am seriously looking at a mule or draft horse one day soon. I have had the crap scared out of me too many times on tractors in steep terrain. If you want production a bandmill is superior. Youve got much more horsepower and the thinner kerf. 

I had hoped to be pretty far along on my bandmill carriage this week. There is a particulary nasty upper respiratory virus going around here and I have been running a 103 F fever since saturday. On top of that its been cold as a well digggers you know what here for the last two days and has been blowing snow on and off. Not too conducive to doing much outside.

To say the least I am ready for spring. If I rambled on.. you blame it on the fever. HA HA


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 15, 2008)

*Woodbug*

Rick the more I look at your woodbug the more I like it. It also looks pretty easy to fabricate. I can see some killer beams getting cut on it/ Maybe the next you are doing some major work I can come help ya. By the way my offer on the snatch block still stands. Just let me know. Ive got two kids graduating from college in May and after that I will be at the farm a lot more than I have this winter.

Just for your info...my brother bought a 2002 Jetta TDI . He is getting close to 50mpg on the highway in Iowa. He has bought two 250 gallon tanks and is getting biodiesel delivered to his place. He has been all over that TDI club site you sent me.


----------



## woodshop (Apr 15, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> In my experience...a bandmill will generally cut smoother boards than a chainsaw mill. A chainsaw mill will generally cut flatter boards than a bandmill. This is with sharp cutters on both mills and both properly set up. If you think about it for a minute this makes sense. There is much less flex in a chainsaw bar than there is in a bandmill blade. There is much less kerf on a bandmill blade and the set is small and stiff. Both mills can produce good lumber and there is a place for both of them. Try getting a bandmill on the side of one of these mountains around here. Some places are just not accessible.



Well put Tennessee Mike. As has been debated here umpteen times, both types of mills, and the various kinds within each type, all have a place depending on your situation, what kind and size log you're milling etc etc. It is the very reason I have both a csm and a small bandmill. Speaking of which, you wanted a bandmill you could carry up one of the sides of those mountains down there? My ripsaw weighs 50 lbs. Of course it's not a production bandmill, wasn't designed to be, but it does mill twice as fast as my csm and with a LOT less waste.


----------



## woodshop (Apr 15, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> ...So the thing is, I don't find a thing wrong with what Slabmaster was saying. I do however, have a little trouble with all you called the man...


Rodney my friend... go back and re-read my posts in this thread if you must, but I never "called the man" anything, just disagreed with Slabmasters assessment of the differences between a csm and a bandmills ability to mill flat boards. My experiences with both mills differed from his, and I expressed that. As some one who has disagreed with just about everybody here in the past... you should understand that one.    

As for me having "yes men" ? ...sheeeeesh... that's a little demeaning to the rest of us here ain't it? From what I've seen past couple years I've been here, all of the regular posters here are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves... don't ya think? If some happen to agree with me on something (and fortunately not everybody does), maybe it's because... they agree with me?


----------



## AlasKarl (Apr 15, 2008)

The more I look at that woodbug mill the more I like it. No, I am not in the market for another mill  

I am a great believer in simplicity, the less finicky parts the better, especially in a remote location.


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 15, 2008)

woodshop said:


> Rodney my friend... go back and re-read my posts in this thread if you must, but I never "called the man" anything, just disagreed with Slabmasters assessment of the differences between a csm and a bandmills ability to mill flat boards. My experiences with both mills differed from his, and I expressed that. As some one who has disagreed with just about everybody here in the past... you should understand that one.
> 
> As for me having "yes men" ? ...sheeeeesh... that's a little demeaning to the rest of us here ain't it? From what I've seen past couple years I've been here, all of the regular posters here are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves... don't ya think? If some happen to agree with me on something (and fortunately not everybody does), maybe it's because... they agree with me?


Friend? Most likely not. Several reasons for that. Right off the top of my head is two or three posts like this one on this thread alone. The biggest one, You just ain't that damn important to me.

Hope this helps
Rodney


----------



## BobL (Apr 16, 2008)

Anyone is welcome to call me a "woodshop yes man" if they like because I have been called names a lot worse than that. IMHO (and let me stress it is an opinion) it is unfortunate that when people are genuinely trying to offer an informed opinion that other people take it as offense. I re-read this thread several times and IMHO couldn't see any thing that Woodshop posted to be offended about. However, I do understand that some people can take offense at the smallest things and if this post offends anyone in any way I apologize in advance.

Cheers


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 16, 2008)

BobL, not trying to start any more BS here but, if you go back to post #8 and read it you will find that the man said something like " little truth"(meaning lie), and beating up a planer (meaning stupid) and that folks in that part of the country are not smart enough to set up a bandmill (meaning idiots). Then tells me later that I can't read.

Now back to the topic. I can't say much about the WoodBug simply because I don't own one, never used one, never saw one. Only pictures of one. I did think about buing one a few years back, as i did with the RipSaw. but in the end, I bought the Logosol M7. That I can tell you about. Along with the BigMill, the Alaskan, the Beam Machine, the early NorWood, and the 1220 TimberKing. If that makes someone else tnat don't own one "informed and me uninformed", nuff said.

Rodney


----------



## AlasKarl (Apr 16, 2008)

*Neat link with lots of milling pics*

Here is a real interesting link with great milling pictures I came across while doing a search on a GB mill.

http://woodgears.ca/chainsaw_mill/index.html


----------



## MJR (Apr 16, 2008)

Nice link, thanks. Makes me want to get the dust off my CSM...


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 16, 2008)

*Great link*

I liked the one Dads old Sawmill too


----------



## woodshop (Apr 16, 2008)

I've said this before, but once again it bears repeating. One of the problems with forums and even chat rooms where you can interact with people in real time via IM, is that it's just a very poor excuse for a face to face conversation. The tone of your voice, the inflection of it, facial expressions... all the little signals and info we unknowingly (or sometimes knowingly  ) give off when we are talking to some one are missing in a forum. All you have is words, which often can be taken several ways, often depending on your mindset reading them in the first place. Thus, if you're dealing with the type of person who you generally have to walk on eggshells to begin with so as not to offend them even talking face to face, in a forum like this it is virtually impossible not to ruffle their feathers. Folks... ya just can't take this stuff too seriously, gosh you're gonna die WAY before your time!!  In this case, could I have taken more time and perhaps chosen my words more carefully so as to be absolutely positively dang sure what I wrote wouldn't be taken the wrong way or too seriously and thus offend somebody? ...um... sure, I could have... do I want to have to do that every time I stop by this computer and jump online for a few minutes? NOT... I'm mildly sarcastic by nature... "maybe where you come from folks don't know how to set up a bandmill"... and with the vast majority of folks on here, I simply don't have to work that hard. Nor do they for me. For those few in that small category, I honestly do feel sorry for ya. I've only carried this (responding to it) as far as I have because I wanted to make a point. Usually, like most folks here, it's just ignored... life's too short. Use that time instead to MILL MORE WOOD!!!  

Speaking of which, (WARNING, more friendly sarcasm coming) I've been given a 48" dia tulip poplar log I'm going to tackle this Sat if it doesn't rain. I'm going to use my chainsaw mill to cut it down to VERY strait VERY flat cants before I mill those cants into wavy boards with the Ripsaw bandmill.


----------



## DRB (Apr 17, 2008)

AlasKarl said:


> Here is a real interesting link with great milling pictures I came across while doing a search on a GB mill.
> 
> http://woodgears.ca/chainsaw_mill/index.html



Cool set up Thanks for the link.


----------



## MotorSeven (Apr 17, 2008)

You _found_ 6 sections of bug in a barn. Wait, don't tell me it was only use by a little old lady on Sundays after church.....

Anyway, look around the sled has to be there somewhere unless it is still attached to her ported/modded 088. Try calling Suzy at www.Woodbug.com & if you can get a-holt of her(we think they are out of business), she may have a sled in stock. If you do need to build a sled i can shoot you some pic's, it is pretty straight forward. BTW, those 10' sections sold new for just under a grand. Keep us posted. 
RD


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

slabmaster said:


> Even with that large log your cutting in the picture,if you look about half way down the top you can see the rise in the middle of the log.That's the wagon tongue effect you get from a bandmill.A thinner blade will never cut a flatter board than a wide blade.Bandblades aren't even close to being as wide or stable in the cut as chainsaw bar and chain width.It's common since,that a scroll saw won't cut as strait as a hand saw in the cut because it isn't as wide or stable going down the slab.Mark



That buisiness about wagon tongues is garbo , you get that with any setup , some people even call it tension in the wood , as you cut through the lenght of timber , the tension in the timber causes it to bend . Cheers MM


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

woodshop said:


> I've said this before, but once again it bears repeating. One of the problems with forums and even chat rooms where you can interact with people in real time via IM, is that it's just a very poor excuse for a face to face conversation. The tone of your voice, the inflection of it, facial expressions... all the little signals and info we unknowingly (or sometimes knowingly  ) give off when we are talking to some one are missing in a forum. All you have is words, which often can be taken several ways, often depending on your mindset reading them in the first place. Thus, if you're dealing with the type of person who you generally have to walk on eggshells to begin with so as not to offend them even talking face to face, in a forum like this it is virtually impossible not to ruffle their feathers. Folks... ya just can't take this stuff too seriously, gosh you're gonna die WAY before your time!!  In this case, could I have taken more time and perhaps chosen my words more carefully so as to be absolutely positively dang sure what I wrote wouldn't be taken the wrong way or too seriously and thus offend somebody? ...um... sure, I could have... do I want to have to do that every time I stop by this computer and jump online for a few minutes? NOT... I'm mildly sarcastic by nature... "maybe where you come from folks don't know how to set up a bandmill"... and with the vast majority of folks on here, I simply don't have to work that hard. Nor do they for me. For those few in that small category, I honestly do feel sorry for ya. I've only carried this (responding to it) as far as I have because I wanted to make a point. Usually, like most folks here, it's just ignored... life's too short. Use that time instead to MILL MORE WOOD!!!
> 
> Speaking of which, (WARNING, more friendly sarcasm coming) I've been given a 48" dia tulip poplar log I'm going to tackle this Sat if it doesn't rain. I'm going to use my chainsaw mill to cut it down to VERY strait VERY flat cants before I mill those cants into wavy boards with the Ripsaw bandmill.



Well said Dave , Kind regards from the yes man Matildasmate:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 17, 2008)

*Wood*

Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow.

I have this problem myself from time to time because I do a lot of machine work. I have a friend that is life long career machinist and he got interested in making furniture. He was terrible at it. He wanted everything to fit like he had made machined parts all of his life. He couldnt do it. 

My point here is that you are never going to get a truly flat, square piece of wood. Its just not going to happen. And if you do get very close, let it rain for a few days or get hot as hell and dry for weeks like it did around here last summer. It swells, bends, twists, you name it.

Im sure all of you know this but its worth thinking about from time to time.


----------



## arojay (Apr 17, 2008)

Well, this has been an interesting first experience with arborsite. Thanks to all of those who responded to my question, in kind. I have a semi-retired 394 that I will probably ue to power my choice, if I don't decide to go with both. Unfortunately for a lot more folks than me, the 60' of Woodbug that I originally posted about belonged to a log builder who used Sitka spruce from the coast and built large structures, so I guess they need the length. Anyway, I just heard the other day that they went bankrupt and fled with at least a few substantial deposits for homes etc.. I expect all assets will be frozen for the time being.


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 17, 2008)

Matildasmate said:


> Well said Dave , Kind regards from the yes man Matildasmate:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:



Yes, it was well said. Problem is, it don't have a thing in the world to do with what happened. What it does do is try to shift the blame around to someone else. That be the "silver tongue" at work.

Hope this helps
Rodney


----------



## woodshop (Apr 17, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow...


Yup, when I first started to work with wood seriously, I went through a large learning curve concerning wood movement. Ask any professional woodworker, and he/she will tell you that (when possible) you never mill exact dimensioned boards wider than a few inches for a dresser or table for example, until right before you are going to actually fit them into place where they can be screwed/glued. At first, many a time I would take a rough board down to exact dimensions, taking great care to get it flat and true with nary a hint of a twist when laying it out on a very flat surface... and then come back down in the shop a day or two later and find it had a slight bow or twist. My perfect board had moved a little. As TNMike says, this is just the nature of the beast. All wood is hygroscopic, it takes in and gives off moisture like a sponge, and thus it swells and shrinks slightly with the weather. Real woodworkers deal with it by building in wood movement in their pieces. This is why raised panels in doors are not glued in place, they all "float" in that frame. Table tops are not glued and screwed down solid the whole way around, there is built in room for the wood to expand an eight of an inch or so while remaining relatively tight on the apron and leg bottom it sits on. This is also the reason you bring rough "dry" lumber from your outside stack down into your shop and then let it sit there for a few weeks while it "moves" to the climate of your indoor shop. This is another reason that if you're serious about using wood in a woodshop you need to purchase a GOOD moisture meter. I have a pin-less Wagner that I've had for over 10 years... I don't know what I'd do without it. 

If you're talking about rough lumber or wet boards right off the log as we have been in this post, the situation is even worse. You can almost SEE them move that first week or so of drying when they start to lose all that moisture. 

Once agiain I'm gonna plug Burce Hoadly's book "Understanding Wood" because it's so good... it explains all this in detail, and (for me at least) is VERY interesting reading. His other book "Identifying Wood" is of equel value, and I refer to both often. Once in a while on Amazon or other places you can get both together at a reduced price if you get the pair. 

Silvertongue... over and out


----------



## woodshop (Apr 17, 2008)

arojay said:


> Well, this has been an interesting first experience with arborsite. Thanks to all of those who responded to my question, in kind. I have a semi-retired 394 that I will probably ue to power my choice, if I don't decide to go with both. Unfortunately for a lot more folks than me, the 60' of Woodbug that I originally posted about belonged to a log builder who used Sitka spruce from the coast and built large structures, so I guess they need the length. Anyway, I just heard the other day that they went bankrupt and fled with at least a few substantial deposits for homes etc.. I expect all assets will be frozen for the time being.



To bad about that 60' woodbug ending up as a frozen asset, thus not usable for somebody. Hope your "interesting first experience" here hasn't turned you off to AS, there really is a ton of info here concerning milling, with lots of guys willing to share what they've learned over the years.


----------



## woodshop (Apr 17, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions.


Not that anybody needs proof, but here is a graphic example of how much wood CAN move. I took a worse case scenario, a species that is notorious for moving as the weather does, oak, and cut a strip off the end of a flatsawn board (flatsawn moves a lot more than a riftsawn or quartersawn board does). I wanted to see how much that cutoff would swell and shrink as the weather changed, so I then simply attached ONLY ONE end of that cutoff to a piece of plywood (got this idea out of Hoadly's book, Understanding Wood). The other end of the cutoff "floats" as I attached a hook which is attached to the very bottom of a large copper pointer, which is then pivoted a short distance above that. (see closeup pic of end of cutoff). So... as the humidity goes up, that piece of oak swells, which pushes the bottom of that copper pointer away from the oak, which (because it is pivoted on the plywood) moves the top of the pointer to the right. As you can see from the lines on the plywood showing the full range of that pointer over time, that piece of oak which is kinda "floating" and allowed to move, did indeed move almost half an inch from full swell (humid day) to full shrink (dry day). It doesn't move fast because of the relativly large size of the piece of wood, and it generally lags behind a relative humidiy meter by a day or so. In other words, if you take an RH reading every day and see the RH starting to rise, the wood/pointer won't react much for another day or so till you can see it start to move in that direction. I havn't taken the time to rig it up and test this, but I suspect if I had a much skinneir (but just as long) piece of wood with less bulk and mass, the meter would react faster. Call me nuts, but this kind of stuff interests me to no end. If I had the time, I'd have dozens of these little jigs set up with different types of wood, cut different ways and lengths just to experiment.


----------



## AlasKarl (Apr 17, 2008)

*And yet another mill link*

Well, the more "I hang out here" the more mills I come across. I am not sure if Jonsered actually makes these mills or just markets them, but they sure look well made. Plus they appear to be quite portable.

http://tiltonequipment.com/html/sawmills.htm


----------



## VT-Woodchuck (Apr 17, 2008)

Jonsered is VERY proud of these mills and charges accordingly!


----------



## BobL (Apr 17, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow.



Recently I experienced this when I joined 2 boards that were about ~3 ft long by 4" wide by 3/4" thick. I cut the two boards from a piece of 2 x 4 that was at least 20 years old on a TS, clamped the boards together so I could plane one of their long edges on a jointer which produced a good fit between the two long board edges. I then left them for two days. When I came back to glue them up I noticed there was about a 1/16" gap in between the edges. I glued up anyway thinking I could force them into position with clamps. After the glue had dried I found I was close but not close enough for my liking  so I ripped the join and edged the boards again and unfortunately I had to leave them overnight, now the :censored: gap was in the opposite direction! Fearing I was going to run out of wood I edged and glued the board immediately - which then produced a board bowed slightly along its length  Sometimes you can't win - I then went and got another piece of 4 x 2?


----------



## user 19670 (Apr 17, 2008)

AlasKarl said:


> Well, the more "I hang out here" the more mills I come across. I am not sure if Jonsered actually makes these mills or just markets them, but they sure look well made. Plus they appear to be quite portable.
> 
> http://tiltonequipment.com/html/sawmills.htm



Hmm, now that the 2186 is the largest Jonsered saw it has become automagically big enough to mill with.
20" bar and 19-1/2" log. Even smaller logs than a Woodbug can mill.


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

*Procut type mills*



arojay said:


> Well, this has been an interesting first experience with arborsite. Thanks to all of those who responded to my question, in kind. I have a semi-retired 394 that I will probably ue to power my choice, if I don't decide to go with both. Unfortunately for a lot more folks than me, the 60' of Woodbug that I originally posted about belonged to a log builder who used Sitka spruce from the coast and built large structures, so I guess they need the length. Anyway, I just heard the other day that they went bankrupt and fled with at least a few substantial deposits for homes etc.. I expect all assets will be frozen for the time being.



This mite interest you , a few pics of a procut and one of dustys version , ya never know , Dusty mite even post a few new pics for us hint hint :hmm3grin2orange: I really like Dusty's version , way better design , very simple , no lifting the logs , just roll them on , no bending down with the saw , your head is away from the exuast gases , I am currently working on my own design of the Procut type mill . Cheers MM Welcome to AS and I hope you get as much as I have out of the experience , a lot of great peolpe on here .


----------



## dustytools (Apr 17, 2008)

Matildasmate said:


> This mite interest you , a few pics of a procut and one of dustys version , ya never know , Dusty mite even post a few new pics for us hint hint :hmm3grin2orange: I really like Dusty's version , way better design , very simple , no lifting the logs , just roll them on , no bending down with the saw , your head is away from the exuast gases , I am currently working on my own design of the Procut type mill . Cheers MM Welcome to AS and I hope you get as much as I have out of the experience , a lot of great peolpe on here .



Thanks for the compliments MM. Im one of those "Design on the go" kinda people. I am eventually gonna get around to finishing this project, more importantly Im gonna try to simplify the method of attaching the Alaskan to the carriage. If time permits I will post some pictures of the Alaskan+saw mounted to the carriage this weekend and let you guys help me brainstorm the "better" way to mount it as Im sure there has to be one. Thanks again MM!!


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

*People just sharing ideas and thoughts*



Rodney Sinclair said:


> Yes, it was well said. Problem is, it don't have a thing in the world to do with what happened. What it does do is try to shift the blame around to someone else. That be the "silver tongue" at work.
> 
> Hope this helps
> Rodney



Hi Rodney ..... Hey we don't always get it right mate , that's why they call them opinions , also we like to air our thoughts and ideas , some of them not great , but you get that eh . But on the whole there are some brilliant ideas and great people on this site and as you know yourself , from other threads I am happy to say what I think . Good to see your still alive mate . Cheers MM


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

dustytools said:


> Thanks for the compliments MM. Im one of those "Design on the go" kinda people. I am eventually gonna get around to finishing this project, more importantly Im gonna try to simplify the method of attaching the Alaskan to the carriage. If time permits I will post some pictures of the Alaskan+saw mounted to the carriage this weekend and let you guys help me brainstorm the "better" way to mount it as Im sure there has to be one. Thanks again MM!!



Hi Dusty I was hoping you would chime in , I will be looking forward to your post , this will be much appreciated . I am currently in the process of designing a similar mill , your design really inspired me mate! When you start the thread I will post a few design pics of my own for you . Cheers MM


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> Its good every now and then to step back and realize wood is a natural material that moves with the ambient conditions. Its not like steel that you can put into a mill vise, take 250 thous off it and it be the same tomorrow.
> 
> I have this problem myself from time to time because I do a lot of machine work. I have a friend that is life long career machinist and he got interested in making furniture. He was terrible at it. He wanted everything to fit like he had made machined parts all of his life. He couldnt do it.
> 
> ...



Hi Mike ..... Your absolutely right mate , its timber not steel , allthough steel moves with temp changes , shrinking and expanding , but as pointed out , yep timber really moves a lot , the first log I ever milled , was a green redgum log which me and my partner milled out bush , anyway one board we milled had so much tension in it , it split in half by the time we got to the other end , going by my rusty memory , we got about half way along and the end had about a 4" wide gap at the start and split right up to where we were sawing , by now about 4' along , the plank was about 8' x 12"x 2" . Heres a few pics of a peice of thin dry redgum I just left laying around on a pallet , it was dry in less than a couple of months about 10mm thick . Cheers MM


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 17, 2008)

BobL said:


> Anyone is welcome to call me a "woodshop yes man" if they like because I have been called names a lot worse than that. IMHO (and let me stress it is an opinion) it is unfortunate that when people are genuinely trying to offer an informed opinion that other people take it as offense. I re-read this thread several times and IMHO couldn't see any thing that Woodshop posted to be offended about. However, I do understand that some people can take offense at the smallest things and if this post offends anyone in any way I apologize in advance.
> 
> Cheers



Hi yesyesyesyesman :hmm3grin2orange: I agree Bob . Cheers MM


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 18, 2008)

*Thanks for the pic MM*

Nice looking mills. Yep steel will move. I use to do surverying in the dark ages when you still pulled a steel chain. You had to carry a precision thermometer to compensate for the chains length with varying temperatures. By chain I am talking about a steel tape. Anyway..it is surprising how much difference there can be even in that case say over several miles 

Keep up the post....love em


----------



## lmbeachy (Apr 18, 2008)

Woodshop: I find your experment tp be very interesting, I think I will have to try that myself, just for kicks. If the weather wasn't so nice and I didn't have so much garder work, I would like to come up tomorrow and watch you cut that big poplar. For your sake I hope it is nice tomorrow and you have a fine time cutting. Don't forget the pictures.


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 18, 2008)

*Woodshop*

Thats a hell of range on that oak length. Amazing isnt it.


----------



## woodshop (Apr 18, 2008)

TNMIKE said:


> Nice looking mills. Yep steel will move. I use to do surverying in the dark ages when you still pulled a steel chain. You had to carry a precision thermometer to compensate for the chains length with varying temperatures. By chain I am talking about a steel tape. Anyway..it is surprising how much difference there can be even in that case say over several miles ...



I have also "pulled chain" surveying years ago (guess this dates us huh?), which was not actual chain, but 66 ft steel tapes. Yup, we had to carry a thermometer and add the correction depending on temperature. For only a small plot, like 1 or 2 chains, we didn't bother, but for longer distances it added up and made a difference. 

That piece of oak in my crude humidity meter is only 11 inches wide, and it moved a little over 3/8 inch from a very dry winter to middle of hot sticky summer. Say you had a table top made of flatsawn oak though... say table was 3 ft wide... that table would literally swell an inch from side to side season to season. You can see that if you didn't incorporate that movement into the design of the table to the apron, you would have a cracked table or busted apron. That movement is VERY powerful. They used to fit dry wooden wedges into openings of large stones, then flood them with water. The wooden wedges would swell and crack open the stone. Powerful stuff.


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 18, 2008)

woodshop said:


> I have also "pulled chain" surveying years ago (guess this dates us huh?), which was not actual chain, but 66 ft steel tapes. Yup, we had to carry a thermometer and add the correction depending on temperature. For only a small plot, like 1 or 2 chains, we didn't bother, but for longer distances it added up and made a difference.
> 
> That piece of oak in my crude humidity meter is only 11 inches wide, and it moved a little over 3/8 inch from a very dry winter to middle of hot sticky summer. Say you had a table top made of flatsawn oak though... say table was 3 ft wide... that table would literally swell an inch from side to side season to season. You can see that if you didn't incorporate that movement into the design of the table to the apron, you would have a cracked table or busted apron. That movement is VERY powerful. They used to fit dry wooden wedges into openings of large stones, then flood them with water. The wooden wedges would swell and crack open the stone. Powerful stuff.


Hi Woodshop ..... very interesting experiment , good research mate , thanks for sharing . Cheers MM


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 19, 2008)

Matildasmate said:


> Hi Rodney ..... Hey we don't always get it right mate , that's why they call them opinions , also we like to air our thoughts and ideas , some of them not great , but you get that eh . But on the whole there are some brilliant ideas and great people on this site and as you know yourself , from other threads I am happy to say what I think . Good to see your still alive mate . Cheers MM


Alive and kickin' MM. Just don't always have a lot to say. Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call stright line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.

Rodney


----------



## user 19670 (Apr 19, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call straight line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.
> Rodney



Too bad Rodney. We have had our share of straight line winds around here. Now, if it "can" fall and land on something we wish to keep we fell the tree and live with a little extra elbow room.


----------



## BobL (Apr 19, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> Alive and kickin' MM. Just don't always have a lot to say. Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call stright line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.
> 
> Rodney



Ouchhhh! Sorry to hear about that. Are the pines at least any good for lumber?


----------



## Matildasmate (Apr 19, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> Alive and kickin' MM. Just don't always have a lot to say. Anyway, I have been kinda' busy here. We had some bad storms last week with what they call stright line winds. Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van.
> 
> Rodney



Nice spot you got there Rodney , gee the truck took a bit of a hiding , eh mate , lucky no one was in it , looks like you will be doin a bit more milling then , good to see your alright there mate . Yeah I had a bit of storm damage around here recently , certainly nothing like your truck though , just a few trees falling on my fences . Cheers MM


----------



## woodshop (Apr 19, 2008)

Rodney Sinclair said:


> ... Several good size pines came down. Two got the house and one landed on the family van...



Sorry to hear about your tree/wind troubles there Rodney, that van doesn't look too good. Were you home when it happened? Seems like that would have made a huge noise hitting that vehicle like that. Glad nobody got hurt, stuff can be replaced, people can't. I hope insurance might take care of some of that for you. Those pines do look big enough to mill though.


----------



## Rodney Sinclair (Apr 20, 2008)

The storm hit about 4 AM and all the damage was done in about 30 seconds. It did indeed bring me out of the bed. The insurance co had a crew there waiting for the electric co to get through so they could get started with the house. Major job on this.

Truck is a different story. It was built for mud runs in the river bottoms and was sitting on the trailer when hit. In the picture, I have got the tree (2 of them also) cleaned up. I got seven 8' - 10' logs from them. The butt end being 24" - 26". As far as I can tell, the frame and runnin' gear is OK. But the body looks like chit and homeowners won't cover it. Because of what it is, no auto insurance on it. It takes a back seat right now anyway, and eveything will work out.

Rodney


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 20, 2008)

*Looks like some really high win*

Man that is a bummer but if no one was hurt..that is the main thing. Posessions can be replaced. 

I hope your get squared away there soon.


----------



## TNMIKE (Apr 20, 2008)

*Ive heard that sound*

I had a 20 inch red oak fall through a 1985 Ford 4WD pickup lengthwise in 1992. A hurricane came inland and blew the tree over. It crushed the cab down to the seat and blew glass out of it 150 feet in some directions. It was a huge sound. The engine and drivetrain were not hurt but the truck was totalled. I had to cut the doors open to get in it to retrieve my things.

The really bad part was Ford had just recalled the paint on it and had stripped it to bare metal and repainted it. I was sick.

Take care Rodney..it will all work out.....Mike


----------

