# I Have My Heart Set On Logging



## TheDailyStroke (Sep 5, 2012)

I really want to log. My dad has been logging for years. I really want to start, but, I don't want to work for my dad. I have nothing against it, I would just rather work for myself. What do you guys think is the best avenue to start getting the equipment that I need to start working? All that I own right now is a saw. Just an old Husqvarna Black-Top. I don't want to take that thing out in the woods and try to depend on it. I would rather have a 044 or 046 Stihl. I think that I would be fine just starting out with a cable loader truck and then mover onto a knuckleboom and regular logtruck. I do not own any skidder, skidsteer or anything capable of moving timber. See if the wise advice on AS can help me out. Thank you, everyone.


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## husqvarnaguy (Sep 5, 2012)

Work for your dad and see if this is what you really wnat to do before you buy equipment. Its your dad and Im sure he would not mind teaching you his trade.


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## TheDailyStroke (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm sure that this is true. He would love to teach me everything he knows. Out here in North Carolina we really don't have much of the high output logging going on. No feller-bunchers or anything like that is used around here. Everyone is skidder and sawman on the ground oriented. My dad works as a one man team. He usually gets about one load out of the woods a day. Which just suits him, because, he farms and sawmills on the side. I have some other operations that I could probably seek employment with. Just not sure if I would want to work with anyone else that would not be willing to teach me as thoroughly as my flesh and blood. Do people still use the cable loader trucks a lot in the industry?


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## Oldtimer (Sep 5, 2012)

I saw those cable loader deals on the discovery show...they look like a good way to get maimed or worse.

Assuming you have the aptitude for the work, and a good work ethic..

You want to go out on your own, it takes MONEY. Build credit. Buy a cheap truck, like $4k or less, pay it off with no late payments. Take out a credit card, secure it with a bank cd if you need to. PAY IT OFF IN FULL EVERY MONTH.

While you make these payments, seek out and make written contracts for several good sized timber lots. Find GOOD WOOD, do NOT sign up low dollar stuff. Buy it right, put it in writing. Make sure you put it in the contract that the landowner will pay you $1500 in cash to break the contract before you have been able to make $3000 in profit from the job. This will keep them from dropping you before you get there.

When you have made regular on-time payments to the cc for 18 months, and the truck loan is paid off in the same time frame....then approach the same bank about an equipment loan. 
Buy a $10K machine, and 2 new saws.


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## 056 kid (Sep 5, 2012)

There is plenty of logging in nc. Same with the other eastern states. The south produces more than the rest of the countries regions . Work for your dad, then maybe yall will get 2 or 3 loads out. If you have no experience other than your dads a logger, well thinking going into business yourself is a freakin pipe dream..


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## husqvarnaguy (Sep 5, 2012)

If you help your dad, do a good job. Dont leave a mess. There has been alot of land cleared around here and they leave a huge mess. Take pride in your work. When people see that you do a good job they will recomend you and or call you.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Sep 5, 2012)

Ahhh, the good ol father and son fued! 
Iv worked With my dad logging, moving furniture, and sawmilling since i was 13 (im almost 18 now) 
I work like flying colors with everyone around me. But my father and i are at neck and neck all the time about the stupidist things. I can understand about not wanting to work with your father. 
But I LOVE everything about logging! I love operating machines, sawing boards, cutting trees, and rebuilding/collecting chainsaws.... but i would much rather do all of them myself!


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## mainelogger1995 (Sep 5, 2012)

Haha thats like me, i work for my ole man and have since i was like 11...when he starts gettin mouthy i just flip my ear muffs down haha


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## jay_d (Sep 5, 2012)

been where you are buddy. if you really wanna get into it then you have a long way to go. you cant just decide you want to log one night and go to work the next morning. the sad part is most upstarts end up with dangerous old wore out junk in an already dangerous work setting. saw felling is dangerous as hell, anything with a cable is dangerous as hell. when you take inexperience and add that in you have a recipe for getting maimed or killed.

sharpen your skills, and keep sharpening. the day you have it figured out is the day all hell usually breaks loose. no shame in working for your dad and learning the trade. Ive been at it for 10 years and my father is a 30+ year veteran, there are some things you just cant learn in a year or two.

find a decent old knuckle boom ,cable skidder, and an old cab over truck with a 40 foot trailer. hunt a procurement forester who is willing to let you work until you can afford some general liability. upgrade as necessary.

take or leave what ive said here, but i do get to run a shinney new loader and buncher everyday, and stuff a couple green backs in my pocket on fridays. lol


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## northmanlogging (Sep 5, 2012)

If'n ya can deal with yer pa, work with him awhile, learn what you can from him but don't take it as the gospel truth. Give it at least 6 months, then go talk to the other old farts esp. the ones getting older and see if they would like the help, Watch listen and shut up, Allot of logging is skill based learn what you can from everyone you can. But jumping right in with equipment payments hanging over your head and very little experience is a sure way to fail miserably. I'm guessing your young so burning a few years as a wage slave won't matter in the long run, trust me if I had the connections I would use every single one of em. Good luck and look up


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## TheDailyStroke (Sep 7, 2012)

I appreciate all of the advice and I'll give it some thought. I would never just go in and try to finance a bunch of junk to begin with. Do not have the capital for that. Haha, but I really appreciate the feedback and I'll decide soon enough.


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## Gologit (Sep 7, 2012)

TheDailyStroke said:


> I appreciate all of the advice and I'll give it some thought. I would never just go in and try to finance a bunch of junk to begin with. Do not have the capital for that. Haha, but I really appreciate the feedback and I'll decide soon enough.



Good idea. It's a lot better to _not_ be logging and wishing that you were than it is to _be_ logging and wishing that you _weren't_.


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## terryknight (Sep 9, 2012)

i agree with just about everyone on here. 

i don't have any experience logging, but i have been working for my father for half my life and in that time we know what the other is thinking without communicating. he and i are much more efficient than he and my brother, or anyone else. I am much more efficient with him than i am with anyone else. and now he is doing less and i am slowly taking over. plus it's working with your blood which can be frustrating, but it is also great


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## 2dogs (Sep 9, 2012)

Work for your dad.


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## 2dogs (Sep 9, 2012)

Being from California it sounds funny hearing someone advice buying an old log truck. There are none in Cali due to smog regs. If you want a cable loader log truck I can get you one for free, you just have to move it to NC.

There is not much old equipment in Cali either. Smog again. Pretty soon there will be annual smog checks for heavy equipment and no one will be able to start any business that requires equipment without buying new. How well will that work?


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## northmanlogging (Sep 9, 2012)

Ya know the more and more funky laws that the Peoples Republic of California passes, the more I wonder why sane and logical people still live there?


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## 2dogs (Sep 9, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya know the more and more funky laws that the Peoples Republic of California passes, the more I wonder why sane and logical people still live there?



It's the drugs man.

And we love paying taxes so the Governor can pass legislation subsidizing the Hollywood film industry.


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## Gologit (Sep 9, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya know the more and more funky laws that the Peoples Republic of California passes, the more I wonder why sane and logical people still live there?



Because we like it?


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## northmanlogging (Sep 9, 2012)

Does a full time logger Qualify as sane and logical?


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## 2dogs (Sep 9, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> Does a full time logger Qualify as sane and logical?



Heck no!


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## Gologit (Sep 9, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Heck no!



Pfffffftttttt.


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## 802climber (Sep 27, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> I saw those cable loader deals on the discovery show...they look like a good way to get maimed or worse.
> 
> Assuming you have the aptitude for the work, and a good work ethic..
> 
> ...



This looks like great advice. This is the same path I seem to be headed down. We have been working on the credit building for years now, goal is to buy a real nice piece of land.

I have done all of that except for the signing jobs (have my eye on a few nearby) and buying an old machine. I have begun to enjoy thinking about actually doing it.

Been looking at old cable skidders up north (wi) - Looking at JD 440's and Old Timberjacks. Want to find something with turbo, wide tires, chains, and being worked not just sitting around.

My question is, if I could find a good old machine in the $10-15k range, how much of an equipment loan would I want to have for repairs, etc "just in case" while I make my money back..?

What can ya find for 10,000 in NH? Not sure if they are cheaper or more expensive out here.


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## Oldtimer (Sep 28, 2012)

If you can get it, a $4K-$5K cushion in the bank over the loan amount is a good idea. Just don't use it for anything except break downs and a payment when it might be in question.

Here, $10K buys an old 208 TJ with a 353, or maybe a C5D Tree Farmer. My old C5D is up for sale again, guy never even used it. I know I could go give him $9K and own it.
It runs a Duetz 5 cyl, best diesel engine ever made.

However, you want a John Deere with BOTH grapple and winch.
No other machine for the money has the features it has. You want to run it up to full operating temp (both engine and transmission and also hydraulics) before you buy one..See that it does not run hot, and the transmission remains solid.

The Deere will have the steering due to lock-in lock-out axles, and the JD powershift. A TJ, Clark, Franklin, Tree Farmer, International Pettibone, pretty much ANY other $15K skidder will have full time locked rear ends: crabwalk city. And a grapple doubles your output on average.

This is a GREAT machine for the cash, I have the very same skidder myself. TRUST me, it's light-years ahead of a small cable...yet fits down the same trails. There's no end to the tricks you can pull with this machine after you get good with it. It doesn't have a winch, and mine doesn't either. I have not yet needed a winch. But you can find them for $2000 or so. This one has the trail building blade too, a JD450 dozer blade! At least a 4 way, and maybe even a 6 way.

I use mine to gather brush, and use the brush as "bumpers" to avoid scarring leave trees. I build bridges with it, pop stumps, move boulders, load my F550 dump with it, on and on.
I use around 10 gallons a day if I am on the move with big hitches, less if I try. I set the hand throttle and use the transmission to go faster or slower. Makes a HUGE difference in fuel use.



John Deere Grapple Skidder 1989


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## palogger390 (Sep 28, 2012)

Give it a go with your father. At the very least you will learn a little about logging and test the waters to see if that is the career path you want to follow. 

My dad and I have been logging together for about eight years and things have worked out good for the both of us. We started out with a $6,000 Franklin cable skidder and 3 wore out Husqvarnas. Eight years and nine machines later our current set up is a Timbco buncher, 2 Franklin grapple skidders, and a Cat dozer, mostly paid for and still just the two of us. 

My advice is if you acquire the experience necessary and decide to adventure out on your own, don't be afraid to have a few payments on nicer equipment if you have plenty of work. If you spend all of your time fixing junk equipment you aren't putting wood on the landing. Good luck and stay safe.


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## Gologit (Sep 28, 2012)

palogger390 said:


> Give it a go with your father. At the very least you will learn a little about logging and test the waters to see if that is the career path you want to follow.
> 
> My dad and I have been logging together for about eight years and things have worked out good for the both of us. We started out with a $6,000 Franklin cable skidder and 3 wore out Husqvarnas. Eight years and nine machines later our current set up is a Timbco buncher, 2 Franklin grapple skidders, and a Cat dozer, mostly paid for and still just the two of us.
> 
> My advice is if you acquire the experience necessary and decide to adventure out on your own, don't be afraid to have a few payments on nicer equipment if you have plenty of work. If you spend all of your time fixing junk equipment you aren't putting wood on the landing. Good luck and stay safe.



That's good advice and I'll add a little to it.

I don't like to carry too much debt but there are times when it's unavoidable. Logging is about production and a good machine will help you make money. Keep up on the mechanical stuff...filters, hoses, fluids, and tires. If you have something that you think is questionable, change it out. Maintenance isn't expensive when you compare it to downtime and the money you're losing when a machine should be working. Downtime will just flat kill you.

Keep good books on your expenses or have someone keep them for you. Save every receipt for anything even remotely concerning your operation. You have to know where your money is going. Find out how you can legally write off every expense you can.

And one thing about debt...when those payments are always in the back of your mind it seems to give you a little more incentive to get out there and get some work done.


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## redprospector (Sep 28, 2012)

I might as well throw in my 2 cents.
I make a list of each piece of equipment and try to figure out what it cost per hour to operate it.
I'll use my Fecon for example, and start with the obvious.
It uses about 25 gallons of diesel in an 8 hour day, so at $4 a gallon that's $12.50 an hour.
I change the engine oil every 250 hours, costs about $50 if I don't count labor. That's another $0.20 an hour.
Being a masticator the hydraulic oil & filters have to be changed every 250 hours. The required fluid cost $465, and the filters are $72 each and there's 2 of them. So that's another $2.44 per hour.
The teeth are about $3500 a set and you hope for 500 hours out of them. That's another $7 an hour
I'm hoping to get 4000 hours from the undercarriage before total replacement at about $15000. That's another $3.75 an hour.
Replacement cost of the machine is about $140,000 and hopefully I can get 6000 hours before that happens. That's another $23.33 an hour.
Of corse the operator needs about $20 an hour.
I could go on & on, but we'll total what I have, and that comes to $69.22 per hour that comes out of my pocket for that machine to be running.
This money has to be set back in an account that is taboo to touch for anything other than what it was set back for. No, no one is charging for it right now, but sooner or later they will and you have to be able to pay for it, or you won't be in business long.

Andy


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## computeruser (Sep 28, 2012)

You and your dad ought to work together, unless the two of you can't get along. Two working together should outproduce two working separately, I'd think. Good way for you to lend your youth and enthusiasm, and for dad to lend his experience and equipment. If you both respect each other and can communicate openly and fairly, you should do well.


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## TheDailyStroke (Oct 4, 2012)

This is all great advice and I really appreciate it all. I have considered asking him about me getting to work with him some and see what happens. I found that everyone on this site is nice, experienced (or trying to get there), and extremely respectable. I appreciate the courtesy and come back to this site (and the people) very often.


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## dozerman37 (Apr 20, 2013)

*any luck?*

hows it going so far working on your logging business?


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Ya know the more and more funky laws that the Peoples Republic of California passes, the more I wonder why sane and logical people still live there?



The same could be said for people in NY


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## jrcat (Apr 20, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> I saw those cable loader deals on the discovery show...they look like a good way to get maimed or worse.
> 
> Assuming you have the aptitude for the work, and a good work ethic..
> 
> ...



Oldtimer that is almost word for word my business plan, Just adjusted for the area I am in. I am planning on a log truck (self loader) this way if I am not in the woods or pushing dirt I can be trucking logs, including trucking my own logs. The more tools in the tool box the more that can be done to make money.


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## 056 kid (Apr 20, 2013)

"cable loader"? Is that a ####in yarder?


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## imalogger (Apr 22, 2013)

*Bit by the logging bug..*

As a young wanna be logger I might share my limited experience and thoughts on the matter. The best advice I ever got from a older man who ran a sawmill was "start small and work your way up". My advice if you don't have much cash laying around is to work for someone else for a year or two before you jump into equipment ownership. I can completely understand the desire to want to do it "all on my own" because I'm kinda the same way but you have to be ready with enough cash on hand for repairs, maintenance, fuel and anything else that happens to hit you. I saved much of what I made working for my dad on the farm and was able to buy all my equipment with cash. I've been blessed that way, that's a privilege not everyone has. In fact working on the farm is really the only thing that has kept me afloat, but since I log on the side and the equipment is paid for it can sit until a good job comes along or i need to scratch the itch.. If you work for someone you will likely have a more stable income with a Lot less stress. If your a one man operation you've Gotta be able to fix things yourself, and the not get depressed when things do break down. Sometimes I've felt like a whole lot more like a mechanic than a logger and you cannot let that get you down. Keep your word and be honest with people even if you have to take the short end of the stick once in a while. It's well worth it in the long run. A good name in the neighborhood is invaluable.. Buy at least one really good saw and another one to cut it out when ya pinch it. And PPE. Ill take my car to the job when the weather allows cause it gets twice the mpg's of my truck. And like a previous poster said, get yourself a credit card and pay it off in full every month. It builds your credit score & you'll need it to order parts for your old equip.. Good luck, I hope something works out for you.


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## ShearHeadMS (Apr 23, 2013)

Same as imalogger said, I'm a young gun too, just finished my first thinning job on a 20 acre pine plantation. Did it all with a 1 ton truck, 10 ton goose neck, Massey furgason 451 with grapple and loader and a husquvarna 562 saw. Can't say I worked at a fast pace, but with low overhead and keeping the land owner happy I made decent money. Now if I can find a feller buncher for a decent price I feel I can do larger jobs. I didn't have the luxury of having family or friends in this industry. But iv learned from a few old timers and I enjoy what I do on the side. Can't say I'll ever make it big time, but with my areas crooked timber company's I'm sure I'll have a little work here and there


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