# Timber Theft?



## jessica parker (Apr 26, 2016)

Hi everyone! I came across this forum while trying to do some research on the situation that I am in right now. My sister and I inherited 50% of 141 acres down in Alabama after our dad passed away. His brother owns the other 50%. My sister and I live in Virginia but go down to our hometown a few times a year to check on everything. I got word that the timber was being cut on our land and called a friend to run out there and take pics for me if it was true. Long story short, I tracked down who was doing it, called him and found out that my uncle authorized it.....and just thinning at that. Well, I called his accountant the next day saying I wanted a copy of the contracts signed and she said this particular guy is older and normally does verbal contracts but would try to get what she could for me. I have heard from no one in regards to getting copies of that paperwork.

To top it off, the pics that I was sent are just horrible. Looks completely trashed to me....and definitely not thinned as they keep trying to say.

I am sending a certified letter to the one who cut the land today demanding copies of the paperwork, but my question is, is there anything in particular I should be asking him for besides the contract? Shouldn't he have opaperwork to show exactrly how much he cut and what parts of the 141 acres he cut? I am truly just devastated over this. It was all hunting land and farm fields....just top now look like this. These are just a sample of what I am dealing with...


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## ArtB (Apr 26, 2016)

Any 'before' pics? Or overall aerial views? Google maps is your friend.

Have you talked with your uncle, seems like the first thing to do if you have not done so already?

The pics look to be only an acre or so, out of 141 acres. Perhaps your uncle just clearing a part for a cabin? 

FWIW: 'horrible' is subjective, I live on just 3-1/2 acres and the pics simply look like part of my backyard at times in the past.


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## jessica parker (Apr 26, 2016)

ArtB said:


> Any 'before' pics? Or overall aerial views? Google maps is your friend.
> 
> Have you talked with your uncle, seems like the first thing to do if you have not done so already?
> 
> ...



Here is what I could find for the aerial view. Ill try to find more when I gety home. The part where I have the typing is where you turn onto the land. The circle is the one part that we don't own...... . I have attempted to talk with my uncle but he has ignored all calls and texts (except for one) since I found out about all of this. When I tracked down who was cutting it, I called him, told him stop, and then low and behold my uncle calls me 30 minutes after I get off phone with the guy. As soon as I started questioning him, "his battery was beeping" and he had to go. My uncle is a city guy and has no use or want for the land yet wont sell it, so I know there is no cabin or anything being put out there. The land was my daddys baby. We spent almost every weekend out there growing up. 
And I do understand that 'horrible' is a subjective word. We lived on a few acres while I was growing up so I get what it can look like over time. But I can say, this family land looked NOTHING like these pics. I also only loaded a few. She sent me about 18 pics and then pics of all his equipment out there so he couldn't deny it wasn't him. She also had to get the county involved bc they tore the roads up out there and she could barely get to her house....and then left it that way. It used to be a private road, but when we went to the 911 system in our community, it was deemed a county road.


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## madhatte (Apr 26, 2016)

Laws vary from state to state, but in the US, the general rule is "Triple Stumpage". That is, if you can prove the theft in court, the defendant is liable for three times the appraised value of the timber while it was still standing. Now, not having walked the land, I can't tell a whole lot about the condition of the ground, but that does indeed look like a thin, probably to a spacing rather than a basal area. The debris you see on the ground is probably lop/scatter/crush, which is in many ways better than piling the slash on the ground and burning or removing it, because the fixed nutrients in that debris stay on-site as the material decays. I have a sneaking suspicion that in two years your timberland will not look like it had ever been entered, and in 20 your wood quality and quantity will both be measurably better. So -- there are really two questions that you need to have answered. 1) did your uncle act out of line in contracting this land to be thinned and 2) did the contractor follow the prescription defined in the contract. Those are both matters for court, and you will want to have a qualified forester come in and assess the condition of the forest before you bring any charges.


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## ArtB (Apr 26, 2016)

_have attempted to talk with my uncle but he has ignored all calls and texts (except for one)_

OUCH ! Internal family problems with property are sad. Without knowing anything else, a verbal contract with a 3rd party without your knowledge (or prior understanding or even misunderstanding) does not speak well of your uncle. Is the property joint ownership or 70 acres each , etc.


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## jessica parker (Apr 26, 2016)

ArtB said:


> _have attempted to talk with my uncle but he has ignored all calls and texts (except for one)_
> 
> OUCH ! Internal family problems with property are sad. Without knowing anything else, a verbal contract with a 3rd party without your knowledge (or prior understanding or even misunderstanding) does not speak well of your uncle. Is the property joint ownership or 70 acres each , etc.



The property is joint ownership. The last thing I want to do is cause an issue within the family, but all I have asked for since the day I found out is a copy of the contract (told he does most of his work verbally), what sections of the land has been cut and how much has been cut. That shouldn't be hard to give, ya know, unless they have done more than admitted to so far. I am sending a certified letter to the company asking that they send me the documentation. If it doesn't work, then I guess a quick trip will be in store in a couple weeks. I will probably go anyway just so I can walk the land myself and see what all has been done. 

I just wasn't sure if there were any documents in specific that I should ask for besides the contract. Someone mentioned tickets to me, but I haven't found what those are specifically yet.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Apr 26, 2016)

As a logger the pics look like a normal job, not sure what you think is bad? 

The skid trails are bit wide, what was he using?


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## ArtB (Apr 26, 2016)

I think one post said your lot is in PA ?

Do some homework, start here and go from there.
http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_20028454.pdf

excerpt:
_Consider the assistance of a professional forester. The Pennsylvania Bureau of Forestry has service foresters who can meet with you and look at your woodlot. They can give you forestry advice, help you write a management plan, recommend what type of timber harvest is best, and help you determine if, and when, you should harvest your trees. 
All *services provided by the PA Bureau of Forestry are free-of-charge*._

Here in WA (as I'm sure every state), the state wants their cut form any commercial harvesting or thinning, which usually means permits, etc. Our state DNR gets picky about roads, very picky about any activity near streams, etc. etc. Sounds like your operation may have already run afoul of county road regs?


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## peakbagger (Apr 26, 2016)

Unfortunately, your issue is with your uncle. The problem is what agreement in place to manage the 50/50 ownership?. I expect it may have been willed that way but without some sort of agreement between the parties on the management of the property I expect you are out of luck.


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## slowp (Apr 26, 2016)

I'd have to walk it. Pictures can be made to only show part of units. An example: I got a phone call from one of the higher ups wanting to know what I'd let those loggers do. An environmentalist called and was crying, actually crying, because it was a big clearcut. It dawned on me that the half acre landing, which was where a landing had been before, was the huge clearcut. I took our person up and walked it and explained. She decided no biggie, we have to have landings. Oh, landings are the area where logs are brought to and loaded on trucks. We try to keep them as small as we can here but we have trucks that are made to turn around in tight areas. Then you have skid trails where the logs are brought or skidded to the landing. All of that should be laid out and looked at before trees are cut, in the ideal world. 

I do see some thinning in one photo, but it doesn't "look" from the photo like a very nice job. I am not familiar with logging in Alabama. The skid trails are looking wider than we'd have in this part of the country--at least if I was in charge. We try to keep the width at 10 or 12 feet wide and have trails flagged in before cutting starts. 

We also have no idea what the instructions were or if anybody was ever out there to keep an eye on things. Were the trees skidded out tree length using a skidder? With the wrong person on the equipment that can make a mess and damage leave trees. We don't know. I think you better find somebody locally--like a forester and walk it and ask questions. Would you want an internet diagnosis of a bad skin rash? Or would you rather go see a doctor? It's kind of like that. 

If you ever have any involvement in a future harvest, get a written contract. Meet with the logger and have a forester or family member or somebody that knows about harvesting timber make on the ground visits to make sure what is spelled out in the contract is what is happening on the ground. They have to be able to get out of the pickup and walk. 

If it isn't in writing, it didn't happen.


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## slowp (Apr 26, 2016)

_I am sending a certified letter to the one who cut the land today demanding copies of the paperwork, but my question is, is there anything in particular I should be asking him for besides the contract? Shouldn't he have opaperwork to show exactrly how much he cut and what parts of the 141 acres he cut? I am truly just devastated over this. It was all hunting land and farm fields....just top now look like this. These are just a sample of what I am dealing with..._

Sounds like you also need a lawyer or paralegal also. What you want are load receipts from the mill(s) and also see if there was a timber cruise done. A timber cruise is an estimate of the volume to be harvested. The load receipts, if there are any, should tell either the net volume of each truckload or the weight. The volume cut does not usually match the estimate, but it should come close. 

You might also want to figure out the monetary value--whether to go ahead or quit. Sometimes thinnings don't make a lot of money. 

Remember, I've never even been close to Alabama. I have been to New Mexico and Wisconsin and that's as far east and south. Go find a local expert.


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## ArtB (Apr 26, 2016)

Old age dyslexia - somewhere I thought I'd read PA, when the woodlot is in Alabama!


goes to show how much internet advice is worth 

Alabama may have a bunch of new laws about logging? 
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.alaforestry.org/resource/resmgr/ALC/FAQ.pdf


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 27, 2016)

Looks like a bad haircut to me.


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 27, 2016)

Most deals in the woods are made on a handshake. Treat the woodlot owner right and you will get the adjacent woodlot.
The problems go up exponetialy by the number of the people involved. That's why I always went it alone.
It's nothing more than a three way coperiation between the woodlot owner, the forester and the operator.
I never was a pig in the bush, I always thought about the next stand and the next cut.
I always made it a rule to leave more trees than I cut, however, like so much grass, it's growing faster than we can cut it down.
There is still a lot of wood out there, so lets look after it.


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## jessica parker (Apr 27, 2016)

slowp said:


> I'd have to walk it. Pictures can be made to only show part of units. An example: I got a phone call from one of the higher ups wanting to know what I'd let those loggers do. An environmentalist called and was crying, actually crying, because it was a big clearcut. It dawned on me that the half acre landing, which was where a landing had been before, was the huge clearcut. I took our person up and walked it and explained. She decided no biggie, we have to have landings. Oh, landings are the area where logs are brought to and loaded on trucks. We try to keep them as small as we can here but we have trucks that are made to turn around in tight areas. Then you have skid trails where the logs are brought or skidded to the landing. All of that should be laid out and looked at before trees are cut, in the ideal world.
> 
> I do see some thinning in one photo, but it doesn't "look" from the photo like a very nice job. I am not familiar with logging in Alabama. The skid trails are looking wider than we'd have in this part of the country--at least if I was in charge. We try to keep the width at 10 or 12 feet wide and have trails flagged in before cutting starts.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I did hire a local forester down there yesterday. He is supposed to have a report back to me this afternoon or tomorrow. I do know that no one was down there supervising or watching what was going on. I deal with contracts for a living, so had I known this was happening, I would have made sure a contract was in place had we all agreed. In this case, I found out days before they were actually finished with the job. I moved away form home 16 years ago to join the Navy and live 15 hours away, so I think my next move will be to hire someone to oversee the land and check on it til I one day move back home. Oh, BTW, I also talked to the accountant again last night for the owner of the company that cut it. He did not do a contract. She said that he told her the deal was basically sealed after he told my uncle that he would need to supply our addresses and SSN's as our approval "signature". He gave it to him.....but I have no clue how he got my SSN! I have tried contacting him multiple times.....but he is once again ignoring all my calls.


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## olyman (Apr 27, 2016)

jessica parker said:


> Thanks for the reply. I did hire a local forester down there yesterday. He is supposed to have a report back to me this afternoon or tomorrow. I do know that no one was down there supervising or watching what was going on. I deal with contracts for a living, so had I known this was happening, I would have made sure a contract was in place had we all agreed. In this case, I found out days before they were actually finished with the job. I moved away form home 16 years ago to join the Navy and live 15 hours away, so I think my next move will be to hire someone to oversee the land and check on it til I one day move back home. Oh, BTW, I also talked to the accountant again last night for the owner of the company that cut it. He did not do a contract. She said that he told her the deal was basically sealed after he told my uncle that he would need to supply our addresses and SSN's as our approval "signature". He gave it to him.....but I have no clue how he got my SSN! I have tried contacting him multiple times.....but he is once again ignoring all my calls.


sounds to me,like you have a nefarious uncle,,and he needs to be dealt with,harshly,,or he WILL do it again....me thinks he got the money from it,,and you two got zero....and turned over your SSN's??? holy moley!!!! falsification??? dang!!! extremely crooked sawyer afloat....


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 27, 2016)

*"Timber Theft?"*
Sorry but with the extremely high cedar prices of late my Falling services are booked at a tree a night for the next 50 nights and I get my cut when it hits the ground then I'm off the clock and off to trot


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## readonly (Apr 27, 2016)

The uncle sounds like a POS but the logger also has responsibility to know whose lane he is cutting and make sure that he has appropriate permissions. Some companies even do a title search on every piece of ground before starting. Sounds like this guy knew you were part owners, and didn't caret hat you hadn't authorized it.

Aside from this timber cut, I would force a sale or partition of the property. If you have the money to buy him out, then do it. If not, at least you will have your own piece and can keep him off. Joint tenancies and tenancies in common are a recipe for disaster and this is proof of that.

Also make sure you get every penny owed to you on the cut. Sounds like your uncle was just planning to keep it.


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## Marshy (Apr 27, 2016)

So the land was split 50 : 50 between your uncle and you/sister?
Was the land surveyed and physically divided so the two parties understood which land is owned by which beneficiary? If not, then what do you have in writing that says that you/sister are 50% owners and your uncle is the other half? Sounds like your going to have nothing but future problems unless the land is delineated to the respective parties. Good luck, sounds messy, get legal advice.


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## northmanlogging (Apr 27, 2016)

1st, if its a co-owned thing, all parties should have been involved in the decision, if it where my job I would have called and confirmed with all owners, or walked away. Been more then a few that I turned down recently because of sketchy ownership issues.

2nd you need to find out what kind of payments where made and make sure you get whats owed you, or it is timber theft.

3rd without a before pic, its hard to say what happend, the pics you have a a little blury, and I'm not real familiar with east coast timber. However, if it was a thinning it was an aggressive one, the alternative is that it was what is called high graded, and only the timber of value was removed leaving the junk behind, things a forester can tell you more about.

4th drive on down and give yer "uncle" and ear full and maybe an ass full as well, making decisions "for" people is not a great way to make friends or happy families. 

If the bastard can't answer the phone knock on the door, or once you find out how much money is owed have the police do it for you.


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## Gypo Logger (May 1, 2016)

I once supposedly stole a tree and the owner went to the cops about his 20'000$ loss. The cop arrived, looked at me, looked at the stump and said,"how does somebody know a tree is worth 20G's when it's not there?"


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## Westboastfaller (May 1, 2016)

Timber Tool said:


> I once supposedly stole a tree and the owner went to the cops about his 20'000$ loss. The cop arrived, looked at me, looked at the stump and said,"how does somebody know a tree is worth 20G's when it's not there?"


He's right. It's much like "someone" scrutinising my work after the trees down from where the sawdust lays &/or foot prints in the snow. Pointing out I'm falling from the low side or something. I always say.."You can't physically stand that tree back up and know what I was up against. High side is not always the safe side.

So how much was it actually worth in the end?...lol


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## Gypo Logger (May 1, 2016)

The story kinda preceded itsself, adjacent woodlot dude had some 5' redoak I wanted, which prompted his timber trespass aqusation gig.
You can spot a mile away those that have no business in the bush, but they are so obvious there is no need to rat them out.


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## muddstopper (May 1, 2016)

Interesting thread. Seen similar family squabbles over different things. I cant say for all states, but just because a tree is no longer standing, or even laying on the ground, it does still have assigned value. In NC, I believe that value is still around $600 per tree. Size doesnt matter, if you can show a stump, (2inches or 10ft dia, doesnt matter), you can prove a tree once stood there. If you can prove the tree stood there, then it has a minimum value , (the $600 number). If you can prove the tree was worth more, you can collect more. It is up to the offender to prove the tree was worth less. Bama might be different, but If you do a stump count and take them to court, I am pretty sure you can find out exactly what the timber sold for simply because your Uncle and the timber harvester most likely didnt make The $600 per tree that could be the amount the court could award. 

As for land held in common, not unusual for land handed down from deceased family. Each surviving heir is entitled to their part and dont necessarly have to have the names changed on the deeds either. Unless their is a Will that gives one heir or other person, preferences as to how possessions will be divided, then each heir will have equal ownership. I can only suspect that the land was held jointly by two brothers and at the time of the death of one brother, the surviving brother still retained his ownership of his half the property and the surviving family members inherited the deceased brothers part ownership, resulting in a 50/50 ownership of the property. And things can get very interesting form that point on as there is still a matter of maintaining the property. If the one that inherited the property didnt maintain their interest in the property, a simple matter of keeping their half of the property taxes paid, and left the surviveing brother to pay all the taxes, then the one paying all the taxes could file a quit claim deed to all of the property and take over full ownership of the property. I think it takes paying the property taxes for seven years before you can file the quit claim deed. If the person paying all the taxes has done so for 7 years or longer, and filed the quit claim deed, at that point the surviving heirs lose all interest in the property. 

I dont know any of the circumstances in this situation, just throwing out some things that need to be considered before jumping to conclusions.


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## bitzer (May 3, 2016)

Timber Tool said:


> Most deals in the woods are made on a handshake. Treat the woodlot owner right and you will get the adjacent woodlot.
> The problems go up exponetialy by the number of the people involved. That's why I always went it alone.
> It's nothing more than a three way coperiation between the woodlot owner, the forester and the operator.
> I never was a pig in the bush, I always thought about the next stand and the next cut.
> ...


I thought you were a high grader. I believe you said, 5-10 exceptional trees per stand was all that you would take. Really looking out for the woods there gypo.


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## Gypo Logger (May 3, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I thought you were a high grader. I believe you said, 5-10 exceptional trees per stand was all that you would take. Really looking out for the woods there gypo.


Nothing wrong with slipping in there and harvesting a few ripe pumpkins. So, lets get this straight, I'm a high grader, so that must make you a low grader who leaves all the high grade and just takes the goon trees? I've seen pics of your bushes, you'll take anything that will make a board, even if there is nothing left.How you been? Haven't seen you around in awhile. It was a red letter day today. A grizzly cub showed up in the yard today and I started peeling and plaining logs for another house. Pics should be forthcoming. Moose roast simmering on the wood stove with all windows open. 20 hrs. of daylight here now, but still 25 degrees F at night.


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## Little Al (May 4, 2016)

jessica parker said:


> The property is joint ownership. The last thing I want to do is cause an issue within the family, but all I have asked for since the day I found out is a copy of the contract (told he does most of his work verbally), what sections of the land has been cut and how much has been cut. That shouldn't be hard to give, ya know, unless they have done more than admitted to so far. I am sending a certified letter to the company asking that they send me the documentation. If it doesn't work, then I guess a quick trip will be in store in a couple weeks. I will probably go anyway just so I can walk the land myself and see what all has been done.
> 
> I just wasn't sure if there were any documents in specific that I should ask for besides the contract. Someone mentioned tickets to me, but I haven't found what those are specifically yet.


I would put all this back on to your Uncle #1 does he own or have any say in to what can be done to/on what is your land?OK' ed legally by you or anyone laying legal claim to the area that has been cut #2 What are his legal holds over your land ( if any ) if non I would consider consulting an attorney with a view to straightening him out over the law a it stands & what he may or may not have sanctioned to be done on a plot of land that he no legal right if this the case Get a resolution's as it may get more involved & troublesome .


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## bitzer (May 4, 2016)

Timber Tool said:


> Nothing wrong with slipping in there and harvesting a few ripe pumpkins. So, lets get this straight, I'm a high grader, so that must make you a low grader who leaves all the high grade and just takes the goon trees? I've seen pics of your bushes, you'll take anything that will make a board, even if there is nothing left.How you been? Haven't seen you around in awhile. It was a red letter day today. A grizzly cub showed up in the yard today and I started peeling and plaining logs for another house. Pics should be forthcoming. Moose roast simmering on the wood stove with all windows open. 20 hrs. of daylight here now, but still 25 degrees F at night.


Sometimes it feels that way. Just to give finishing a job where we took everything. Clearcut for a gravel pit. Typically we leave four to five stages of growth in a woods. We cut out the junk as long as it's merch and we take high grade too. We leave high quality oaks for regen and their longevity. They will be there when I get back in 10-15 years. If they are over ripe we cut em. I'm ready to get the hell off this job I'm on. With what the Mills are paying hand cutters now it's getting close to a wash cutting for yourself unless you're in exceptional wood.


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## Gypo Logger (May 6, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Sometimes it feels that way. Just to give finishing a job where we took everything. Clearcut for a gravel pit. Typically we leave four to five stages of growth in a woods. We cut out the junk as long as it's merch and we take high grade too. We leave high quality oaks for regen and their longevity. They will be there when I get back in 10-15 years. If they are over ripe we cut em. I'm ready to get the hell off this job I'm on. With what the Mills are paying hand cutters now it's getting close to a wash cutting for yourself unless you're in exceptional wood.


I'm sure you'll do ok Bitzer, even though prices still stay low for some grades.
Low prices have a way of weeding out a lot of would be operators.
As long as we adapt and keep costs and overhead low we can always make it through.
Someone once told me that you put your money where you make it,but I'm not sure I understood that statement.
At 63 I'm very happy to anounce that I can survive on 10g's a year which is only 7500 US, and quite proud to say so, even though I cut mostly firewood as of late.
Success may be all about downsizing, as I think less is more, just as half a loaf is better than none.


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