# Friction devices aloft



## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2006)

Do you sue them?
Id rather take a wrap on the rope itself than to rope with a fig. 8 or a munter on a D carabiner. (A munter hitch could cut itself.)
Esp. on tall trees a fig 8 for rigging can get really hot and a stalled hanging log could be melted in half from heat generated. Therefor I force my heat back into the rope itself or to a natural crotch. I rope most of my own wood because I dont want to pull a groundie across the yard. Heat dissapates into wood alot faster than metal. I have looked at window cleaners fritcion devices to lower wood with but again its metal. I bought and have used the black widow rope and device. The device is small and eaisly worked aloft. problem is the rope is to small for my hand.


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## BigJohn (Apr 1, 2006)

Well you got me stumped. I guess the rest of us are just F-ups who use port a wraps on the ground or the larger bollard type of devices? Sure I drug groundies across the ground or pulled porta wraps up a tree but thats the groundies fault. 

If your really worried about heat there is one company that has a water cooled lowering device. The drum is filled with anti-freeze I believe. So just strap one to the base of the tree and see what happens. Time to come into the at least the 20th. No need to always be taking your own wraps up there and cutting and lowering sometimes if cant find one of the F-ups on ground and they disapear or act like they can hear you. If thats the case cut a stub and throw it at them.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 1, 2006)

Ummmmmmm i think heat energy is like electrical energy; conducts through similar devices etc. Thus, i think of wood as a thermal insulator, and metals as thermal conductors; especially aluminum (copper and titanium etc.). Thus, these metals (especially the more/ faster conductive ones); can carry heat away from a hot point (so can burn you elsewhere on the device); whereby the wood as a thermal (just as electrical) insulator can only hold the produced heat in one place, allowing it to concentrate there (and not burn you elsewhere on device).

Another effect you have to calculate in between high support friction to control, versus ground friction to control; is the larger amount of line elasticity into the circumstance. The increased elasticity can allow to much drop and ruin the day; or allow the proper amount of shock absorption and save the day! But, the more elasticity stretch can also thin the rope more on loading and also allow more creep/ stretch at friction point to tear rope up more if highly textured/ not smooth friction device.



i think high friction can be good control; but then ground man can take control line from there; and easily add more friction by rubbing against trunk to prepare for impact; add more in emergency; subtract all that for predicted lowering after impact. This does place more load on support than full friction on support; it does allow more stretch to potentially degrade and heat line if the support friction setting is low in relationship to the load.

i consider rope on rope friction to be high heat, on thermal insulator (the rope itself); though the full standing part pull on the bitters; especially close to load can about eliminate slip and stretch for lower heating, the nylon and polyester etc. are thermal insulators to me, just as they are electrical insulators(though i wouldn't use them for electrical safety).


A Munter to me is a backhand hitch on a small/ krab sized mount. in high loading around such a tight bight, with elastic lengthening to heat and thin rope; while asserting a 2/1 against the rope itself can add up to disaster. Especially if the Munter control end is not inline with the loaded end; so gives more corkscrewing of the line. i think the same pattern of the backhand hitch (Cow without last tuck, or Timber without the whipped spiraling around self) around a spar host/ mount as support and control; has enough friction to decrease the loading before the line crosses itself, to fight itself; also around less tight of a bight. So, just as the higher friction combs out the spiraling more, it also decreases the stretching(and heat produced) thin and 2/1 effect of the rope against itself for less chance of breaking; though the support line is laced in same pattern, just around spar and not krab.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 1, 2006)

In 13 years of tree work I've had a ground guy lower wood for me twice. This doesn't count when doing zipline work, in which case a man is controlling the ground end of the rope for tension and landing pad. 

I don't have a big chipper, so there's little need to 'go big' with regards to limb size. The biggest I go is about 6" diameter, so clearly the limb is only going to be so big. When lowering stuff out of a tree from aloft I try to follow that self-imposed size limit, less than 6" diameter and no more than mebbe three times my weight. This keeps it managable, within safe tolerances, keeps the heating of the rope, or metal, to a minimum and generally just requires a hand-belay through a natural crotch, or a pass through a biner, but rarely a 'wrap'. I look for all points of friction, the tree, the hardware and the gloved belay hand matching it up with the size of the limb. It's all intuitive and I've gone too heavy a couple times to learn where that point of 'too big' is.

The key to swiftness is, of course, don't rig if you don't have to, but to have spliced eyes at each end of the lowering line so as ground guy is unclipping a biner, you're rigging the next piece with the other end of the rope.


I use slings a lot, more than anyone else I know, but that's part of doing swift, solid aerial rigging and lowering. Most of the time I DON't use a sling, just the use of the rope, forming it into a girth hitch, though I don't know if it can be correctly termed that with the use of the eye and steel caribiner. I guess it would be a choker at the point. if I need to be extra secure, instead of once around the limb and clip, you do a quick cow hitch and clip the eye back to the rope itself.

Anyway, the reason I do this is I love to rig, I love rigging scenarios, and when rigging, it's because we're over top of something critical, otherwise I'd sling it, cut it, unsling it, throw it. Most of all I like to work swiftly and don't like to depend on the guy on the ground to get his beans in order for me to move forward with the work. This way, all the ground guy has to do is unclip and move the limb away from the kill zone and keep focussed on the cleanup, which is the reason I have him there. He has both hands free and is able to move himself freely wherever he needs to be to guide and release the limb without having to babysit and manage a rope. If I nick the major forks before lopping the limb, the ground guy can go direct to chipper, no need to involve a saw at all. I don't have a lot of patience in waiting for ground men, so the less of a task they have on the ground, the less complicated for them and the quicker we can move on with things.


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## jmack (Apr 1, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Do you sue them?
> Id rather take a wrap on the rope itself than to rope with a fig. 8 or a munter on a D carabiner. (A munter hitch could cut itself.)
> Esp. on tall trees a fig 8 for rigging can get really hot and a stalled hanging log could be melted in half from heat generated. Therefor I force my heat back into the rope itself or to a natural crotch. I rope most of my own wood because I dont want to pull a groundie across the yard. Heat dissapates into wood alot faster than metal. I have looked at window cleaners fritcion devices to lower wood with but again its metal. I bought and have used the black widow rope and device. The device is small and eaisly worked aloft. problem is the rope is to small for my hand.


just brutal


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## xtremetrees (Apr 2, 2006)

TM- Youve gotten by for so long with almost nothing bro.  I like how you use the slings to chopd down a tree. Working trees alone afford me more options when I have 5 or 6 loop runners and over a house. Some times I throw stubbs while slings are still attached to limbs aloft but not often. I have even used the large tuflex slings to reduce a trees height to fit in a landing zone while throwing the stubb. Ive found useing large slings is dangerous, I agree if the wood is larger than 6 inches ensure there is a later branch stubb for the sling to catch on because that much weight will cause bark seperation causing sling to strip the bark to the lateral stubb.

Tree spyder- Rigging from aloft does reduce the amount of slack in the rope as you are only working half the length of the standard two leg system, shorter trees are a bit more difficult than talller ones. With no room no stretch is best, meaning I should get friction aloft.

The devices currently available aloft will cause hockling of the rope meaning twisting and knotting, i.e. fig 8, munter on a d gate biner, until they come up with a bollard type device to carry aloft I will have to make do with either 1.) wrapping the rope around itself for friction or 2.) wrapping/threading the rope through limbs or 3.) wrapping the rope around one limb multiple times.4.) slinging/unslinging

The black widow friction device is just to small to accept larger diameter line. 

Window cleaner friction divices albit metal and some are spring loaded thereby reducing impact forces arent substantial enuff for commonly large wood force our industry faces. 

Sailing vessels have smaller type bollards of what I am looking for thou I am not at a sea and rather a sea of cars and truck Id like to venture to a yatch club and see what tackle they use.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 2, 2006)

What we need is a biner-type device (scaffold hook, etc, something locking) with the point of friction about 2-3X the diameter of the rest of the biner. Actually, a current steel triple lock can be used, but the diameter of the bend in the rope squeezes down. Since the 'wrap' around this friction area may endure some force, a bigger diameter is necessary for this 'drum' (mini-bollard). I see this as radiating fins coming off the biner's horizontal zone, wrapped with a fairly heavy gauge tube of stainless. It could even be 'molded' to conform to the path of the rope.

The gate could be configured in an upside-down position compared to what we're used to, and open outward instead of inward. Just dreamin.

If a device such as this were created, we'd have to understand that in belaying a limb down is nearly, if not identical to belaying yourself down. This concept device will probably get used for both abseiling and light rigging. We know how tree guys are. I don't know what kind of ramifications this might hold. I doubt it would be the end of the friction hitch, but it would be more new-school than anything we've seen.


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## darkstar (Apr 2, 2006)

*Mini me*

Check into the new mini porta.... Sweet Dark


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## trevmcrev (Apr 2, 2006)

Hey Tree Machine, in another post of yours i read something along the lines of you rigging/lowering from the tree when on working solo. Could you please expand on how you are doing this... ie: how is it being untied/released once on hte ground???
BTW, like your ideas on the mini friction device 

Trev


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## woodchux (Apr 2, 2006)

The way that i do it when necessary is
to tie the branch to a split tail or sling + biner 
and lower it like you do with the saw when its out of gas


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## xtremetrees (Apr 2, 2006)

I've seen rope friction aloft actually cut a utilities pole workers strap right into. As the GRSC has a mount so should this aloft have a mount thereby reducing the rope against tree friction thus saving more lives.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 2, 2006)

Here is a quote from 2002 in the thread what size lowering line do you use.



TreeJunkie said:


> Tom used to have a device, I believe he called it ALF, not sure what happened to that device. Tom still using it?



Im sorry that was 2004

Is that when the GRSC was first comming to market?


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## simpletreeman (Apr 2, 2006)

tree machine,

can you explain in more detail how you lower limbs by yourself? Also, how do get around not rigging anything bigger than 6"? this is a topic that really interests me. Thanks.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

First, let me start with a disclaimer: 

This is just how I do it. I am not, in any way, suggesting you do it like this.

I will tell you that I find it, personally, safer. That is because 1) whatever you're riggin isn't that big and 2) YOU have control of it. This means never a shockload.


There's a lot to explain, as far as all the different methods, and I've been edited out without warning for sharing this stuff, but I can suggest how this is possible: Spliced eyes and biners.

I've enjoyed lately rigging with 11 mm. That 8 mm black widow is too small for hand-belaying, and 13 mm is just plain gross excess for the moderate loads I lower. And I _never rig_ unless I have to.

Spliced eyes and biners on your lowering line, and loop slings with slideline biners. I would never be able to do what I do without these. They are the simple tools that make it possible.


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## coydog (Apr 3, 2006)

sorry man, but spliced eyes and biners etc. could mean anything, please elaborate


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

simpletreeman said:


> tree machine,
> 
> can you explain in more detail how you lower limbs by yourself? Also, how do get around not rigging anything bigger than 6"? this is a topic that really interests me. Thanks.


Hey Mr. Simple Tree Man, Welcome to Arboristsite!

How do I get by with not rigging anything bigger than 6"? First, determine whether you really have to lower the stuff. Also, determine what machinery you have on the ground. If you can handle loggage and weight and can chip big limbs, my methods would be laughable, except in the highly technical situations.

What I mean is, lowering only small limbage, and doing it from aloft serves me, but may make no discernable sense to your operation. Just understand that the methods are applicable to local conditions and the machinery I have. I don't think I'm that unique. I'm a solo, or two-man, or three-man company with a 6" chipper. Very, very basic. Even though I now have guys helping, I still prefer the solo methods, mainly because of the speed with which I can get things done, not having to depend on another person in the aerial part.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> TM- Youve gotten by for so long with almost nothing bro.


Heh heh. I appreciate that for the compliment it is.

You understand the problems that can arise whileusing a friction device aloft. You have two excellent examples:



xtremetrees said:


> The devices currently available aloft will cause hockling of the rope meaning twisting and knotting, i.e. fig 8, munter on a d gate biner,


These things are bad. There IS a device wrap that avoids this malintrubulated rope scenario.



xtremetrees said:


> 1.) wrapping the rope around itself for friction or 2.) wrapping/threading the rope through limbs or 3.) wrapping the rope around one limb multiple times.4.) slinging/unslinging


1)crossing the rope over itself, yes
2)rope through a crotch or over a limb
3)never multiple times. we're not lowering HEAVY weights
4)Both the slinging of the limbs to be lowered (when applicable) or the use of the slings as false crotches, redirects and second leg of a Z-rig

#4 is at the heart of solo, aerial lowering, though 1 and 2 complete all that there is. The techniques are actually very simple, as are the tools required (remember, spliced eyes and biners and slings). Number one, the crossing of the rope over itself may be the most important aspect of all.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

The last time I attempted to share this, I was bleeped off the radar by the moderators. I figure becausemebbe they thought this was condoning dangerous methods. Anyway, I spent about an hour pulling together the images and drawing the diagrams and writing to SHARE what was being asked for, but I was erased.

I would like to, if I could, ask permission from the moderators if discussing the technique of SOLO tree part lowering is allowed.

I'm going to imagine not. The reason is, like if you do it like I do it, you would have no problem. But if you vary, or cut too big and you get hurt or damage something, ya learned it here, ya know?

You can not be doing unsafe things, and what solo aerial lowering is is doing an unsafe thing. That's why this is sort of a background topic we rarely ever have discussed here at Arboristsite.



If it's OK with the moderators, I'll share. I'm not the only one to do solo aerial lowering, I'm just mebbe a little more refined and polished. I'm also one of the few who has pictures and video of it, but before I go spillin that on the table, IS THIS TOPIC OK TO TALK ABOUT?.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

and I can't take silence as consent.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 3, 2006)

TM
Count me in for a private message if not.
Trev


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## xtremetrees (Apr 3, 2006)

TM has a remote control device that unties his knots after his limbs are lowered to the ground... I'd buy that for a dollar.!!!

1) TM counts the limbs needed to be lowered and carries aloft 5 or 6 loop runners or slings. and 2) Ties the anchor to his speedline some distance from house or obstacle underneath and starts climb. TM moves the second anchor to his speedline as he climbs up.?


Most climbers work one or 2 ways they either: 1) climb the tree to the top tie in rapell down begin work. or 2) climb to first limb and begin work.

In scenerio 1 climber bypasses all limbs and free climbs to the top(danger)
The actual defenition for freeclimb is: to climb without a rope!. Safties in, ties in and rapells down to do his work. The inherient danger in this way is of course the first few minutes of bypassing limbs to get tto the top.This is not actually free climbing , I do not know the term for climbing up without saftieing in, I was originally tought this method (imagine a huge Hemlock)the safeest way of course is to climb bypassing limbs with 2 steel core flip lines .Always haveing one safety to the tree.

In scenerio 2 climber never unsafties, steps to the tree safties in and is always safied in and begins lowering when climber encounters 1st limbs, cuts limbs:no need to unsafty, climbs up to next limb.
In scenerio 2 climber hardly works while on rope at all. Most prooduction climbers may only tie in once or twice during a days work aloft.

It has been my sadest day to see my best friend in a nursing home because he fell and no rope was involved. This tells me in order not to fall, always use a rope and work from it.

Im sorry Ive gotten off topic please continue TM.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 3, 2006)

i've roped stuff down myself a lot too; just not all the time. Sometimes i'll leave 1 or 2 stobs as a "Porty" for friction wraps. With enough friction, i might even stand on line. i think it takes extra climber concentration; and also invites 1 handing your saw. 

Some of the overhead rigging support strategies i use; wouldn't work on the smaller stuff; because they are designed to use the size and weight of the load 'against' itself. Whereby, i can't use the hinging of the limb/load itself, to further pretighten (automatically/ with self adjustmeant...) the line before tearoff etc. as well if load is too short. It is mostly line tension and line direction vs. load to me. So the self tightening during hinging is after sweating as much purchase from the line as possible; for as high a line tension to multiply by line angle for support and steering forces on load. Sometimes, i make even make a remote pull device for sweating line; from yet another sling/krab set (device set of 1001 uses).

A lot of times if the limb is rigged to go right(Folding right with the support/rig to right slackens the line; opposite direction giving opposite effect...); i'll face right (with some downward relief); but start backcutting to fold left(like a fake out); but allowing a finish of a tapered hinge to right. This raises line tension(as the limb inititally settles to the left); then the line pulls hard right; so i use that to force a stronger hinge. This gives me a tight line and a strong hinge guiding right; rather than a hinge strength forced without line tension; with a slackened line assisting. The length between the hinge and the hitchpoint is a lever to increase this line tension. So, shorter stuff gives less leveraged length to work the line tension high with, using this method.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks, Spidey, I have always loved reading your stuff.

Xtreeme, You're on-topic. Never are we off-topic when there's a safety message


xtremetrees said:


> TM has a remote control device that unties his knots after his limbs are lowered to the ground... I'd buy that for a dollar.!!!


No remote control, no KNOTS, I've mentioned that a couple times.



xtreme said:


> 1) TM counts the limbs needed to be lowered and carries aloft 5 or 6 loop runners or slings. and 2) Ties the anchor to his speedline some distance from house or obstacle underneath and starts climb. TM moves the second anchor to his speedline as he climbs up.?


 Speedline only when speedlining limb material. 5 or 6 loop runners or slings?, Yes




xtreme said:


> Most climbers work one or 2 ways they either: 1) climb the tree to the top tie in rapell down begin work. or 2) climb to first limb and begin work.


Or shoot a line with the BigShot, and while working be on that lifeline and use your flipline to always be tied in twice while making a cut. I work the lowers first, to clear the way for the uppers (takedown) to pass.



xtreme said:


> In scenerio 1 climber bypasses all limbs and free climbs to the top(danger)
> The actual defenition for freeclimb is: to climb without a rope!. Safties in, ties in and rapells down to do his work. The inherient danger in this way is of course the first few minutes of bypassing limbs to get tto the top.This is not actually free climbing , I do not know the term for climbing up without saftieing in, I was originally tought this method (imagine a huge Hemlock)the safeest way of course is to climb bypassing limbs with 2 steel core flip lines. Always haveing one safety to the tree.
> 
> In scenerio 2 climber never unsafties, steps to the tree safties in and is always safied in and begins lowering when climber encounters 1st limbs, cuts limbs:no need to unsafty, climbs up to next limb.
> ...


I am always on rope, except when I need to re-route it around something, which I do often. Smart to have your flipline clipped in during these short moments of non-connectedness.

Don't overcomplicate. the methods should be simple, sensible and not involve a lot of time, or # of motions. This is a repetitive exercise, so it's good to boil it down to the least common denominator and keep it simple. that way it'll work for you.


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## 046 (Apr 3, 2006)

any pics?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

Still awaiting permission to share. But, yes. I have pictures. Did a little video the other day as I was knocking down a 90-foot cherry just down the street from my video guy. He popped over with a camera. It shows ome helpful sling work that would good to see, but mostly tapered wedge cuts to get the limbs to fold and fall the direction we wan them to go. Biggest spear cut yet to date, too. I have to download and edit that stuff, though.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 3, 2006)

I agree Tm I enjoy reading tree spyders stuff to. It makes me wanna go up and test out his techniques and rigging equasions. 

I think on a whole I try alot of different stuff. I agree to always work on rope and always be tied in with safety. However most production ie Non C.A.'s do not work on rope but rather use the life threating 2nd technique.I'd even say as much as 70 % of our industry workers aloft dont tie inand use 2nd technique.. I know alot of production crews never use a throwball to safetly work on rope. In production it is a time factor and the owner simply cant pay the monies not there..

As I stand here now I could name off 5 compies that gross over 1 million bucks a year, but I wont their business is not mine. I know of one company that sent 3 groundmen to the hospital in less than 30 days. Head injuries from bucket work. I had quit a month before that knowing full well the atmosphere of machoism was gonna get some tuff guy hurt.Again another mans business is not mine.

I have tought one climber 2 saftied point attachment to the tree and this has already saved his life as a ground man thru a 40 foot stubb into the tree he was atop taking a 12 inch chunk out of the tree violently shaking him out and he fell onto his rope. I cried when he told me of his close call and cursed myself for ever teaching him. He is flying to isreal to camp in the desert for a week tommorrow. He has gotten out of tree climbing and I am glad for it.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

See, you probably didn't teach him the part he messed up on.

I started out my climbing career on the life-threatening 2nd technique and occasionally, with smaller and medium trees, still do that. But to position yourself anywhere you wish to be, comfortably and securely, it means being on a rope and having mastery of the friction. This goes for both you, and any limb you might solo lower.

Gravity and friction and weight. That's all there is. Ask Spidey.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 3, 2006)

For many years I've used a friction device, it is like a small bollard, hanging up in the tree. All friction control is upstairs. The system works really well. When my crew and I got the system down we figured it eliminated almost one full person on the crew. We moved a lot of wood FAST!

Hockling is eliminated because of how the device is made and we would use both ends of the rope on alternate lowers most of the time.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

Yea, see, I told you I'm not alone in doing this.

At the risk of being bleeped, how bout a picture of your mini aerial bollard?


I like the _fast_ aspect. It is why I do it.


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## 046 (Apr 3, 2006)

yep, sure would like to see a few pic's. 

totally understand how this could be easily mis-used for pieces too large.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 3, 2006)

046 said:


> yep, sure would like to see a few pic's.
> 
> totally understand how this could be easily mis-used for pieces too large.


Yes. That is the point exactly.


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## 046 (Apr 3, 2006)

Ok, how about via PM or email? 

thanks,


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## Tree Machine (Apr 4, 2006)

There are others interested.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 4, 2006)

Yep like superfly the graivty fighter could use it..


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## jmack (Apr 4, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> i've roped stuff down myself a lot too; just not all the time. Sometimes i'll leave 1 or 2 stobs as a "Porty" for friction wraps. With enough friction, i might even stand on line. i think it takes extra climber concentration; and also invites 1 handing your saw.
> 
> Some of the overhead rigging support strategies i use; wouldn't work on the smaller stuff; because they are designed to use the size and weight of the load 'against' itself. Whereby, i can't use the hinging of the limb/load itself, to further pretighten (automatically/ with self adjustmeant...) the line before tearoff etc. as well if load is too short. It is mostly line tension and line direction vs. load to me. So the self tightening during hinging is after sweating as much purchase from the line as possible; for as high a line tension to multiply by line angle for support and steering forces on load. Sometimes, i make even make a remote pull device for sweating line; from yet another sling/krab set (device set of 1001 uses).
> 
> A lot of times if the limb is rigged to go right(Folding right with the support/rig to right slackens the line; opposite direction giving opposite effect...); i'll face right (with some downward relief); but start backcutting to fold left(like a fake out); but allowing a finish of a tapered hinge to right. This raises line tension(as the limb inititally settles to the left); then the line pulls hard right; so i use that to force a stronger hinge. This gives me a tight line and a strong hinge guiding right; rather than a hinge strength forced without line tension; with a slackened line assisting. The length between the hinge and the hitchpoint is a lever to increase this line tension. So, shorter stuff gives less leveraged length to work the line tension high with, using this method.


on one handing , use the mini porty on a half inch whoopie its light, either stand it off or take an extra wrap to give yourself time when the piece starts to go the porty will grap it, clip your saw and presto lower it to the ground


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## woodchux (Apr 4, 2006)

I just ordered a mini-porta last night.(the old anchor style)
That sucker looks like you could rappel with it .


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## Tree Machine (Apr 4, 2006)

I was out doing crown reduction work today, there was some good, juicy stuff out over the house, much of which required lowering.

I had cut some stuff out of the crown where I was able to just cut it and let it drop. nick had to stack it, shoulder it and toss it over the fence. I had moved to another part of the crown and was ready to do some wrist and forearm-diameter cuts, about six of them. I went for the biggest one first, got about a third of the way through and stopped. Nick was occupied, and I really didn't want him to have to do anything for me as he was doing just great.

That partially-cut limb acted as a mini crane. I was able to sling and cut, and clip the sling on the rope, near the crane limb. By taking a slinged limb and running the sling through the crotch of the next limb to be cut, you can get two limbs on one sling.


By the time I got to that final cut, there were 8 limbs all attached to the one. Made the last cut. 9 limbs all descending together. Trust me, it was fairly quick because when you sling a limb to be cut, you are positioning your arm and body away from the area of cut. This is good safety.

Anyway, not pulling another guy off task is what I got out of the deal, and instead of releasing 9 things one time each, he released 9 things once, and had an"Ah Ha!" moment, and he was really ready by then for a stack of 9 limbs.

This is what I do for entertainment. I don't have HBO.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 4, 2006)

i think Tom calls that a bouquet. 

Sometimes the drapes of a bouquet can be lowered down and suspended infront of glass etc. while ya cut stobs and freefall without risk of them being able to wade through bouquet/ curtain and break glass etc. Sometimes lower the bouquet to lean over and give dense ground protection while half suspended.

i like plotting the order of the cuts to help each other. Sometimes with 2 cuts and angled line, i'll face and backcut the farthest/ hardest at the end of the line to almost failure/ fold. Then, cut the other limb and slam it down into the line on sling/ krab between the support and the primary limb. This can leverage the tension in the line very high; and pull the primary cut around horizontally off from over obstacle; then rig both to ground.

Another way to go with more clearance is to cut the first/ farthest limb at end of rope and let it be caught by the 2nd position limb, cut it to be caught by the 3rd position etc. This way you can inch them all over. Also, the weight of the first can help leverage the 2nd over slower on a stronger hinge etc.

1 trick i like for increasing line tension on primary limb is to choose 'sprung' / leaned over by it's own weight support; attach line to primary load, and sweat line as tight as possible; ground locks end down. Then, go back to support, and cut top off it to speedline down the control side of the rigging line; allowing sprung support to lift up; thus tightening rigging line for main target load (unless you give relief to line tension/ let rig line slip). Then cut target load and rig with this higher line tension working for you. This can be combined with above strategy, by first facing and backcutting primary targed load; and then slamming support top onto control side of rig line.

A lot of times when i want to go right, laying branch straight down or to left on tightened rig line, to get line a lil'tighter before cutting across towards right. The tight line giving more support and forcing stronger hinge too(hinge strength just being a reflection of the amount of pull on the hinge at first folding) The length betwixt the hinge and the hitch forming a lever, whose length is a multiplier increasing the powers of above self tightening strategy. After tearoff, the distance between hitch and hinge still of value as ballast to the heavier/ green end. If the 'green' end is not heavier, load will nose down during hinging, then reverse to nose up, sometimes violently after tear off. So, for this self tightening strategy before tearoff, the maximum model would be spar with lead weight at end. That way you could tie off right behind weight (so as to keep 'green'/ far end heavy and no spar reversal after tearoff), and yet still use the full length of the spar to set line tight before tearoff and as ballast after. To like some kind of martial arts -use the full length of the spar/load 'against' itself; to do what you want. The only shortcoming needing enough room to pivot around; but then using that to deliver hitchpoint under the support (not past or lower load until hitchpoint is not past support point at tearoff) before tearoff. The raise in line tension can be a concern, but werked right there is negligible line impact IMLHO (whereby impacting line/ support would give more line tension). Also, i think a pretensioned, then self tensioned line before tearoff, can take a line with some elasticity and work it as a static line within the calculated range; the remaining line elasticity working as buffer for miss-takes.


Orrrrr something like that,
Thanx Guys,
-KC


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 5, 2006)

Bouquet rigging can save a LOT of time. With a bit of planning the climber can make one trip out into the crown, set the slings in order, then cut on the way back out. Instead of climbing out, cut one, climb out again, cut one, several come down at once.

Another way that this saves time, if you have a ground crew that can handle things, is that the whole bouquet is lined up in one direction and comes down in one place. When I used my ATV as a skidder the bouquets would make perfect sized skidding bundles. Just set the choker under the butts before they are laid on the ground. 

Doing bouquet rigging with a ground crew that isn't capable of handling more than one branch at a time leads to a traffic jam in the drop zone. Like any of the work that we do, a little bit of training and direction with the groundies can move things along quickly though. 

The alternative is to cut and lower one at a time. Overall, I know that using bouquets work faster. After perfecting the system over the years I've seen onsies used and it takes longer to rig, cut, lower and repeat.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 5, 2006)

Tree Machine is the sling dog!.

I can see you now TM sitting around your house at night untieing knotts in slings you wish you hadent tied..lol

Edit Tm this is just for you.
Today removal of a river birtch about 16 dbh. over a house.As I dumped limb after limb on my ground man (on the roof) he was getting frantic dealing it it all. well, he set his saw on the roof running.. Bad thing.... The 136 kept running broke free and skiddied down the roof... LOl 180 bucks down the drain and onto the back proch.It broke the handle it may be replaceable..


First saw Ive broken in 8 years... No worries friend.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 5, 2006)

Who unties slings? 

If you use cord a double fisherman's knot will set pretty dang hard. If you use webbing a water or beer knot become permanent [almost] once they're loaded. Slings get tied and left in treework.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2006)

Tom, I think he's ribbing me as he knows I'm not the biggest fan of tying knots (t-o-o s-l-o-w). I get a bigger kick out of doing a single-hand choker set, whether with a rope or a sling. I can set a cow hitch one-handed, but that's about it. The rest of the knots and hitches I need to use two hands.

For slings, though, for tenex, I let Nick from Wisconsin splice those, rather than tie them. I far prefer web slings over cord slings and as far as knots and carbonated liquids, I prefer Beer over Water givebeer


Tom is the bouquet dude. I started using that here and there after reading about it at Tre' Boez.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2006)

OK, here's how you do it. You :censored:


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## xtremetrees (Apr 5, 2006)

man you dogs can shoulder some wood i know i seen it on the pic forum.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2006)

GOL DANG iT, censor people! That's not nice.


Maybe we all need to agree to some ground rules of use, because as valuable a technique as this is, you can get yourself in trouble with it. Mebbe if we spell out what should NOT be done, mebbe the moderators will let us show some pictures and diagrams.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

OK, #1, do not use the tail of your climbing line. As convenient as it may seem, here are a few things to consider: Abrasion and wear on your rope, cutting a limb near where your climbing rope is, using the splice on that climbing rope on which YOU CLIMB.

On staying with the 'Do not use the tail of your climbing line to lower limbage' includes even when climbing on bull rope. 1/2" stable braid has been my mainstay climbing line all through the pre-11 mm part of our history. But when I climbed on 13 mm, I had no problem lowering stuff here and there with the tail. My problem there was, I climb DbRT, meaning both ends of the rope are on the ground, and I climb the paired lines the same as SRT. I need 20 meters of tail to lower a limb 10 meters, remember, the thing I'm trying to show you is a 2:1 Z-rig, which is a basic and fundamental technique in rigging. Youz guys are climbing mostly DdRT, which means your entire rope below you is tail. Mighty tempting to lower moderate limbage with that. Don't. 

Belaying a limb out of the tree and retrieving your rope from up in the tree has an advantage of this; you are able to lift and jostle the limb if it gets hung up. If it's sorta heavy, or you need to hoist it up a ways, you use the 2:1 leg of your system, and the limb, to your grip, is half the weight of the limb. If it's not so heavy, grab _both_ lines for a 1:1 pull.

See why you don't want to use the tail of your rope? What IF you used the tail of your rope, your limb gets hung up in limbage below you, and you have to abseil down and silky it apart or something, can you see how having a hung limb on the climbing line that you wanna climb on is a problem. On your friction hitch system, you can't go down unless the limb comes up. On my system, I can just pop down and wrestle with the limb, but it's still a pain, and rather dangerous. Just know this, and agree to USE A LOWERING LINE to lower limbs.

Maybe now I can show you the techniques.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

Start with looking at this first picture: :censored: :censored: :censored:


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

OK, Ok, no need to be rude about this. We're tryin to work together here.

Gimme a few minutes to think about this. There must be a loophole, or an exception.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 6, 2006)

Keep trying TM!!! or send me a PM or email. Cant believe someone is really censoring this considering some of the other comments elsewhere on this forum. Oh well. If its such a safety issue cant you make a post describing in detail a strict warning to the arborist community on your discovery of this most dangerous practice so we know excactly what NOT to do. For all i know me and my fellow co workers may already be exposed to such dangerous techniques. It would be negligent of the forum to supress such important safety information.
Trev


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

Well, we all do dangerous things, as this is a dangerous business. I believe that when you hook up a sling, or rope to a limb that you are taking precautions to keep your arms and hands away from the running saw. This is good practice. It's good control.


I'm sure the censors are simply watching out for everyone's safety, but y'know? So am I. I'm not trying to teach dangerous or reckless methods and I would hope what comes out of this is some guys learning some new technique, and becoming more competent and self-assured.


I also believe that lowering stuff from up in the tree _can be_ safer and faster than having two people teaming up on the task. Keep in mind, I'm NOT talking about big limbs. Here's a point of reference: If you can't lift the limb back up using a 2:1, you're in too deep. If you're lowering something from up in the tree and you're just not at all comfortable, you're in too deep. If a limb starts to sizzle downward and you can't stop it, you're definitely in too deep.

Don't lower limbs bigger around than, what's a good reference? Put your two thumbs together, now touch your index fingers together. Now make the biggest circle you can with your thumbs and fingers still touching. I try not to go much bigger than that.

For the guys who've been PM'ing me to share this with them personally, I'll keep trying.

Just know that the Tree Machine didn't invent this, nor am I the only one who does it. I may be one of a handful who does it exclusively, but lowering a limb down solo and retrieving your rope isn't really anything new. It just doesn't get discussed much.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Tm - When ropeing out larger wood will you stand to the side a little or alot during spar/stubb movement?

Did we find the court guilty of neglence while roping/slinging wood ?

I'd further add any top over 6-8 inches could encounter bark seperation athe slinging /roping point, enusre stubbs are therre to catch it. Bark seperates easily on Sweet gum trees.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> If its such a safety issue cant you make a post describing in detail a strict warning to the arborist community on your discovery of this most dangerous practice so we know excactly what NOT to do. For all i know me and my fellow co workers may already be exposed to such dangerous techniques. It would be negligent of the forum to supress such important safety information.
> Trev


Very excellent suggestion, trev.

#1 Do not use the tail of your climbing line. Use a second rope, a lowering line, for lowering limbs.

#2 Do not go too heavy. No more than 2-3X your body weight, max. 6" (15 cm) diameter. If it's as big around as your thigh, too big. At this point just go conventional, it's not worth the risk and you're not saving any time and you're not being safer.

#3 use gloves. You are mostly belaying through your hand, though you'll be gaining friction from the limb and from a false crotch (sling) or real crotch, but ultimately the control comes from your hand. Bare hands are bound to take a beating because once you get the hang of this, you'll wannna let em cruise on down and slow them to a butterfly's touch just before touchdown. This means th line is peeling through your hand, and then you apply pressure right at the end. I can do this all day with a pair of ugly gloves. Wouldn't think of doing it at all with bare hands.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> OK, #1, Just know this, and agree to USE A LOWERING LINE to lower limbs.
> 
> Maybe now I can show you the techniques.




I would say maybe 40 % of our industry do do this unsafe thing of lower wood with climbing line.. Nice point TM!

I got a pic of me riding a log thru the air but I dont post it. Its slinged with the classic wire rope, it weights about 1500 lbs, I am only spiked in on it, next time ill rapell on a 8 if I could just crane some wood


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

I know. I am trying to discourage this practice, even though the practice of self-belaying limbs inherently would encourage it. I've done it hundreds of times myself (When I climbed on 13 mm Stable Braid), enough to know what kind of trouble you can get in.

Use a second rope. Just trust me on this. Don't mess with your climbing line. They call it a lifeline for a reason. You gotta trust your life on this rope every day. Don't compromise it for any reason.

I have been lowering stuff on 11 mm for awhile, and I like the lightness and less bulk. For small limbage as I describe, 13 mm is really overkill. If it's what you have, use it. I just found that 11 mm offers better control and chokers really well and is just less work, overall.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Tm - When ropeing out larger wood will you stand to the side a little or alot during spar/stubb movement?


Trick question. I do not rope out large wood. I'm trying to impress that upon you.

I imagine the burning question is, "What does TM do when he has to rope out big wood." I don't. I turn it into smaller wood and throw it piece by piece exactly where I want it to go. It's called firewood. Unless it's a saw log, or brush, it's firewood. I can cut it up in the air, or launch logs into the earth and cut em up on the ground, but the most economical and efficient and profitable and speedy way to get the wood off the property is to cut it up into 16" long lengths and have someone else come move it away. This is why I don't lower big stuff. It's just faster for me to cut the bigger diameter stuff into firewood lengths from up there. I enjoy it and my chain stays out of the dirt. Ground guy handles a saw very little and instead is busy moving out firewood, or dragging brush or cleaning up or chatting with the client. The less I require of him assisting me in the tree, the more cleanup he's capable of. I love climbing and cutting and rigging. I don't care for raking and picking up sticks.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Man, today I was so thirsty I raked off the chips from the top of my coke and musta drank a half handfull of chip dust.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

I'd alway hope coke would quit with the lime, and the lemon and the cherry vanilla and give us some manly flavors like Oak, or Sugar Maple or Beech. :biggrinbounce2:


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Even on tall skinny leaners to firewood that out to.. Kool . One year I went to a hurrican saw a Dude had two utility workers pole straps for positioning. He was like a gecko. He also had a soft 9/16ths 200 foot rope he was just learning, one hurrican tree I did lasted 6 hrs. live oak all broke out and hung up. I loaded 4 or 5 no 6 ropes with my final cut bro. I know it sounds crazy but my ground man/climber ran that many ropes. He was tying to anything.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Tm Did you always float trees like that one pic you got floating the tree above your truck.


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## clearance (Apr 6, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Trick question. I do not rope out large wood. I'm trying to impress that upon you.
> 
> I imagine the burning question is, "What does TM do when he has to rope out big wood." I don't. I turn it into smaller wood and throw it piece by piece exactly where I want it to go. It's called firewood. Unless it's a saw log, or brush, it's firewood. I can cut it up in the air, or launch logs into the earth and cut em up on the ground, but the most economical and efficient and profitable and speedy way to get the wood off the property is to cut it up into 16" long lengths and have someone else come move it away. This is why I don't lower big stuff. It's just faster for me to cut the bigger diameter stuff into firewood lengths from up there. I enjoy it and my chain stays out of the dirt. Ground guy handles a saw very little and instead is busy moving out firewood, or dragging brush or cleaning up or chatting with the client. The less I require of him assisting me in the tree, the more cleanup he's capable of. I love climbing and cutting and rigging. I don't care for raking and picking up sticks.


 You the man TM, I dont ever rig anything big cause it is dangerous. You cut and throw it accurately, so do I, it can be done. People on this site slagged me and said I didn't have a clue, was a hack, whatever. I have blocked down 140' Douglas fir trees, 020 then a 372 with a 24" bar, then a 288 with a 32" bar, in firewood, all into a spot 4'x4' try and rig all that down, why?


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

Well, I can understand that. I Have thought of a way to fly thru a forest hanging ropes while the ground men riggs/loads your ropes withthe treres. you wanna be carefull not to blow up/out/down limbs tree you use for rigging /load points. This is the zero ground impact way and I have been moderated in accord with what I sought. When the whole trees waves gently to the house slows down as it approaches the eves and hangs in the air above the chipper. 
What do you mean a twisting notch is that sum kinda imbention.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 6, 2006)

To the tree guy that manages large tops 2500 3000 lb on a GRSC all day/ even out the buckets my hats off to you.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

I do have the option of rigging big wood, and I have, many times. I find that in the time it takes to rig a big limb, get the ground guy and his gear all dialled in, I could have by then cut the brush off the end and whacked the rest of the limb into firewood chunks. It's done, and the ground guy was doing something else while I knocked that out. In traditional big limb rigging, ground guy waits for you to rig, you wait for him to lower and untie. Whatever time that takes, double it from a man-hour perspective.

if I didn't ultimately have to buck it up into firewood, I would proably go with the rigging of bigger wood, more traditionally. If I had a chipper that would eat the whole limb, I would definitely lower the whole limb. Consider your machinery before moving onto self-belaying of limbage. it may not be the fastest way, so stay with what works for you.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Tm Did you always float trees like that one pic you got floating the tree above your truck.


This client of mine taught me the art of floating trees.


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## simpletreeman (Apr 7, 2006)

thanks for the info treemachine, btw you're a funny guy.

So would you attach the limb to be lowered to the lowering line by using a sling choked around the limb with a steel biner (functioning as a moveable pulley) or is there a better option for the attachment like a small pulley or ring? Would the rope be running free through the biner besides the friction or could you possibly use a munter hitch, although I know you dislike hitches? Thanks

-stm


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## Ny finest (Apr 7, 2006)

TM<


Could you show some pictures of your rigging setups?How many slings do you typically use? I read the whole thread I guess they won't let you show us roping by yourself but the general setup would be interesting.
My job as a sub consist of doing nothing but big ugly removals and I'm always looking for ways to shave time.
Case in point:Yesterday I had a huge Douglas Fir coming down.It was around 45"dbh in between two garages (6ft apart) with the primaries running behind the tree.I had a 6x20ft area as a drop zone between the garages.At 130ft tall there was a lot of limbs to be lowered.I used a couple of slings to speed up the process but would a boquet help in a situation like this?How do you attach the slings to your line?
Also, the tree had a lean to it and as I changed my rigging point as I went up the tree It was positioned more and more over the roof.Would a boquet make things more difficult? That may sound like a stupid question but I don't know your technique of attaching them to the line.
Finally,the spar had to be blocked down.The smaller wood at the top I was able to cut and throw but at 70 ft up it was 20" and too heavy and akward to throw in such a tight area.So I had no choice but to rig the wood down.I know that practice is frowned upon at this site but I end up doing that all too often.

Thanks in advance for the insight on the subject

Nate


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## clearance (Apr 7, 2006)

The drop zone was 6x20' the chunks were 20" and you couldn't throw them into that spot, eat some more buddy, I pushed of Doug fir blocks that were like 30" into a 4x4 area. After you do it a lot you will get better, no need to rig blocks.Get your groundsman to build walls with the blocks to protect structures, if you fire them into the same spot it pounds a hole and the next blocks stay there or close by.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 7, 2006)

There goes another good thread....


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## Tree Machine (Apr 8, 2006)

I don't know why you say that, Spidey. How Clearance describes is exactly how I would do it. A 4x4 area is plenty of room. To rig down individual blocks of wood has got to be one of the slowest bottlenecks you can create. It's nice to do now and again so you stay sharp, but as a regular pattern of knocking down a spar, or trunk... only if it is directly over an area that absolutely requires it.

With bombing firewood chunks, you can count on gravity to do it's thing, and wind has essentially no effect on big chunks. I have bombed tens of thousands of firewood chunks, though I have rigged maybe a dozen pieces. There is nothing to prove in lowering mondo chunks if it's not needed.

I wish I had pics of a dead oak I dismantled a couple weeks ago, very similar to NY Finest where trees to the east of the oak cause the majority of the oak's limbs to grow westward, and the lean of the towering crown also to go westward, so almost all of it, except the mid and lower trunk was over the house (this is my favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite work). My ground help were three relatives of my wife's, none of which had tree experience. This is where the art of solo aerial rigging shines. All the ground guys needed to do was unclip a biner and drag the limb away. This was a tree that two other companies said would require a crane. I'm happy that I could tie in to the hickory to the east.

Now it's not fair to compare a 70' leaning oak to a 140' leaning fir, but the lean is the same, and in both scenarios there's a house below. Chances are, the techniques can be the same. Aunt Sarah took all kinds of pictures, but I haven't seen them yet.

As far as bombing chunks into a tight area, chances are you're on spikes, so you should be able to move around the trunk like a squirrel. If the chunk is really big, and the lean substantial, and you're not _TOO FAR_ out over the house you do your salami cut from the positive incline side with a little length in your flipline. Once through, lanyard your saw, tighten your flipline to the point of balls on bark, move around to the negative incline side, position yourself for a big push, then give it a big push. This will get you a good bit of distance if needed, especially if you're generally good at doing pushups, b'cause that's the motion. I usually prefer to do the cut, set the saw on lanyard, tighten up the flipline, pull/rotate the chunk back towards me until it balances, half on and half off. With two free arms and a chest I dump it off to the left and back of me. A tight flipline is essential. If you drop the chunk between you and the spar you're on, that would be a major problem. Remember, the chunks I am talking about are 16" firewood lengths, no longer than that.

If I bomb chunks longer than firewood length, it would look more like this, where a ground guy is assisting pulling it off, from a distance, with a rope.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 8, 2006)

As Clearance says a tight zone is not hard to hit. One chunk is generally, pretty much the same as the next chunk.

My target zone is smaller than Clearance's. I pride myself in being low-impact, so I have a sheet of old plywood and the testosterone tire on top of that. My impact zone is the size of a truck tire and I use this regardless of whether the area below is sensitive or not. If I create divets in the earth, I have to fix them, so the fewer the better.

The first pic shows a hollowed out maple. I'd gotten all the limbs dow, chipped them, and then I go up with a bigger saw and do the chunks. Some of the bomb shunks were over the house, but most of them were over a sensitive area between the house and the trunk. There is a sheet of plywood and a testosterone tire somewhere in there. Note the ALAP stump in the upper right of this pic. Note ZERO impact on the lawn. This is the beauty of the testosterone tire on plywood on tarp.

Second pic is the source of the testosterone tire, I cornered a curb a little too tight.

Pic three IS the testosterone tire, actually three, but there are two chipper tires stuffed inside the truck tire. This sucker has taken some major pounding and has saved countless divets. It is my drop target and nailing the sucker dead-on is one of my favorite things to do. If I miss, I generally hit plywood. With any 'new' piece of old plywood, I like to bore a handle hole in each end, giving a means for a ground guy to shift it around by hand, or sink a sling in it so it can be tugged and moved.

Hitting this small a target is really not hard, much faster then rigging the chunks, and the time in setup is quick and obliterates the time that would have been spent in in forking and filling divets.

So we're off topic a bit, but I promise to come back to solo aerial rigging and lowering and address the questions of Simpleman and NY.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 8, 2006)

Thats a good point that you make about positioning your body almost against the tree. I find most chunkers do this. Pushing verticle snap cut logs or firewood. They may rarely sit on the saddle thou be tied in.The use of two lanyards seems great for this type work.

Nice pics bro. Big saw for big trees right on.

Heres this weeks job, I rented two (faulty) chippers and finally got a good one. I made a quick time video of the chunking this small tree with a 44 but its 177 mb.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=31912

Here let me go take pics of the chunks on my truck.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 8, 2006)

Two lanyards is an excellent measure (unlike the pic of the sycamore mondo hunk a couple pics ago). Whenever I'm spiked into a spar I have the flipline sunk and my climbing line chokered right alongside and I'm attached to it also. I always try to be tied in twice when making a cut, as should we all.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 8, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Nice pics bro. Big saw for big trees right on.


I _love_ working the 395 up in the air. It's a great big laser light saber. I'll usually opt to reduce the trunk in firewood blocks rather than dumping the trunk as it keeps the mess more localized and my saw out of the dirt.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 8, 2006)

Do the tires ever wear out? Nice pics bro easy to understand

Could you bomb concrete or asphalt beneath the tires?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 8, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Do the tires ever wear out?


Surprisingly, I have pics of a set that 'wore out'. It takes a lot of bombing, though.




xtreme said:


> Could you bomb concrete or asphalt beneath the tires?


Not recommended, but yes, though it would really depend on weight and height. Once did tarp, then 10 x 10 carpeting, then plywood, then the tires. Now if I'm over concrete or asphalt it goes tarp, plywood, big stack of brush, skip the tires til the brush pile collapses some and the chunks being bombed are lower and bigger. Then throw the tire on the brush. The lower the trunk, the better should be your accuracy to hit the target dead-on.

Big chunks can bounce back up pretty high sometimes. It is most entertaining.


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## 046 (Apr 8, 2006)

thanks again for sharing. amazing what one or two pictures can do.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 9, 2006)

Well then, here's one or two more.

The first is the bomb system I used, jeez, for 5 or 6 years. I t was so helpful I actually designed my tree truck system to accomodate them.

Three tires held together by a rope and a retired biner. All that had to be done was cut a couple holes opposite each other with a jig saw w/a metal cutting blade, and put a termination on a short piece of rope. Normally I'd drag the trio, in-line, but there was a way that if you stood the three up next to each other, without removing the rope from the holes, you could use the biner to clip the ropes together inside the tires so they would all roll as one and wouldn't tip over. This required a dual-eye length of rope, and a small stick through one of the two eyes and sometimes I could get it, but sometimes I couldn't figure it out. It was like one of those mind bender puzzles, only with tires.

These are the tires I blew out. When 'new' the jig-sawed hole were intact. With the biner clipped to the eye, I could pull the other end of the rope, and drag all three as a unit. Through a couple of years of major league bombing the ropeholes blew out and the biner would pull through. Easy fix; choker the last of the three. But then after another couple years of intensive bombing, the sidewall and steel cord around the rim seal blew. I worked hard to destroy that piece of gear.

The three functioned OK after that, but with the tire torn like that, I sorta looked like a hack, and we can't have that. I could have replaced the one majorly blown out tire, but let's say you adopted three kids, they're all brothers. Could you truly get rid of one and replace him?

Anyway, since I now knew it was possible to destroy a tire, I wanted to build a better, stronger tire. My bombing aim had gotten seriously good over time and I decided to upgrade and go with ONE tire, with two tires inside it. Actually, one chipper tire was stuffed inside the truck tire and I couldn't help but wonder if _another_ one would fit in there. Had to wrastle it, but possibly for the first time in human history, two chipper tires were stuffed into one truck tire. It's now the Bomb Target. I s'pose you could call it Ground Zero because its on the ground and its shaped like a zero, or for zero impact on the ground. I hate fixing lawns and am thrilled when I can send down a couple hundred chunks of firewood and never create a divet in the lawn. I mean, that's a good day in my book.

Early in the days I would lay a piece of carpet over the tires. Carpet didn't last. I tried carpet under the tires. Carpet didn't last. Also, I thought it looked kinda hackish, and we can't have that. So then for about three years I had this section of rubber conveyor belt that covered most of the three when they were arranged in a triangle. I will drop a saw log on the tires also, but this takes a little skill to nail it impacto directo. Let me see if I can dig up a few pics of the tires and log slammage and the conveyor belt.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 9, 2006)

I found em.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 9, 2006)

So enough on tires. The story to that moral is that there are creative ways of getting wood down without rigging, and the system is really moderately price, if ya know what I mean.

I've gone into good detail for you for a reason. It answers the question to how the Tree Machine gets by without rigging big wood when big wood is over an area that requires rigging. This is one of the ways. I may rig down a fatter diameter limb, but will likely remove the brush (chippable) end first, so the small cut end would be about wrist diameter. The 'limbs' are long stubs at that point and I may knick that limb 5 or 6 times at firewood length intervals and then make the cut. This way most if what comes down has a consistent length and I have the ground guy stack them strategically over a choker rope so I can gang-cut the pile the the big saw.

I am not a compulsive freak. I'm a professional firewood maker. I do a lot of it every week, do it in excellence and have a good number of methods and techniques to get it done swiftly, which means profitably. I just take it serious as I have limitless people who will take it away. All I have to do is create a quality product, and give it away for free. This is also how I can keep my rig small, and general overhead low.

If you have no reason to turn your takedowns into 100% firewood and an occasional saw log, then mebbe reading this stuff is completely worthless.

So should we try getting back to aerial friction devices?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 9, 2006)

i've (ab)used tires too similarly. i use a thick brush pile on top of the tires. Over some roofs with no over head place to rig, and weight low enough that ya know it has to hit roof, i rig piece under itself, pretighten line and then tires/ brush under. The line takes so much of the impact, doesn't let the piece run away, tires/ brush take the rest. Sometimes the tires/ brush are touching the load piece right after facing, then back cut and let it crush down the matting.

A few times pulling over ~48"+ diameter stumps, mebbe just 4' tall, have stacked tires on only available open area- the driveway; and then muscled stump over to crush tires flat with a belch of air; and no damage to concrete!

Kinda like rope elasticity in reverse, whereby; rope is elastic tension device, tires are elastic compression device. Another thing we've done is to lay 2 spars as rails pairallell with a fall; then half way cut through spars trestled across; so as to catch spar being felled and break the halfway cut through spars. If it takes 1000# to break one, that is 1000# force matched/ dissipated of impacting force. i call it a mechanical fuse; cuz it blows out at the overloading of so much force. Can have tires or brush underneath to. Felling on otp of stuff can keep it off the ground and relieve some bucking pressures/ allowing some shifts on soft stuff under tree, and pivots of balance. The pivots of balance can let you chop some stuff of the heavy end as light end is ballast relieving some pinching, then switch ends (if necessary/ assuming opposite end is now heavy) as to see-saw the fallen spar back and forth. All this also lets ya cut under fallen spar, and keep saw outta dirt too. 1 problem with that and tires is the steel belts in them.

Dang nice arch strategy! i was going to get another look at it to perhaps make a point about an adjustable stop over end of spar inside arch (to help float opposite end better?), but got tired of chasing thru the tiered indexing trails and more replies below this level stuff after half a dozen tries; and that is not the first time....


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## kennertree (Apr 9, 2006)

Treemachine, how much did that log arch cost? That seems like a handy little rig.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 9, 2006)

$2,500. The handy little rig has revolutionized the way I do things and has me buried in high-quality lumber. I like milling and have gotten carried away over the last couple years. Just becausae you CAN move a log doesn't necessarily mean you should.

I've reclaimed a lot of logs and feel good about it.

I'll give you a few drooly arch pictures, but we need to stay on topic. The first one goes back to how I told you I designed the tree truck system to accomodate the tires being onboard. I chose the distance from the flatbed to the chip bed the same as the width of the tires. Now that I have the Wango Tango tire it's too thick to fit under there.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 9, 2006)

I reember that one .. moveing heavy wood effectiently.

Great pics bro, Im still waiting on google to approve my videos

Spydey said, "i call it a mechanical fuse; cuz it blows out at the overloading of so much force. 

Really interesting.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 9, 2006)

In my first video I cut three 20 foot pine stubbs at once why flying in with a 440

How to avoid the DOT TM? In mapquest I always take the quieter route.

Dude your derailing my thread, fix your picture.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 10, 2006)

It's not truly a derail. It's a longabout way of showing one man's way of not having to rig big wood. If you're not rigging big wood, then you're only rigging small wood. If you're only rigging small wood (as is my _modus operundi_) then I can suggest, from direct experience, that a friction device is not needed aloft, or to be more specific, the friction device that will work exceedingly well for rigging small wood while aloft is a device called a caribiner.

I've gotten a few PMs's, guys asking to show them in private how to lower limbs out of the tree. It 's not really 'a way'. Its a number of different techniques, a few different ways to do the same thing, which is to get the limb on the ground.

I may try shooting this on video tomorrow. Another one of the cool things is the belaying can be, and often is done using only one hand.

Just as important as belaying a limb down and retrieving your rope is belaying the limb down for the ground guy to unhook. I think you should consider the solo aerial lowering & retrieving of your rope as secondary to solo aerial lowering and having the ground guy unclip. Ground guy unclipping is by far the fastest if your ground guy is paying attention. Part of the reason why is that you are able to rig with both ends of the rope, and don't have to hoist the entire length of rope back up as when you work with only one end of the rope, or when you do a 2:1 solo lowering /retrieval of the rope. It's important to know this last one, but it's not blistering fast like working the both ends and keeping the ground guy unclipping and stacking brush.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 10, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> I reember that one .. moveing heavy wood effectiently.
> 
> Great pics bro, Im still waiting on google to approve my videos
> 
> ...



*"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon*​
Picture this as same action as tires/ brush etc. absorbing shock by being 'violated'; only the elastic devices have chance of recovery. If it takes 1000# to crush tire, that is 1000# removed/ canceled out in matching. Only the log is like a 'fuse' is just blown/ not reusable; not a resettable circuit breaker like a tire!

My analogies to electric and mechanical force imagery as very similar in how they conduct similarly through devices goes mucho farther than that! i think sometimes finding such similarities, especially in more familiar imagery can lend more insights, and help try-angulate on the real operating princi-pals!

Orrrrrrr sumetin'like dat!
Guess i knead :help: !


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## xtremetrees (Apr 10, 2006)

I disagree strongly with using a pully (false crotch) as a tie in point to a dead decurrent shaped tree. THe movement from the no friction on the pully causes more weight distrbution (sway, movement into dead stem) verses a natural crotch it in as movement.
I was taught early on to tie into a pully you can really smoke trees while flying thru the air but let a natural crotch be your tie in on dead and reduce the 2-1 force youd be putting on your tie in point witha pully.I must stay slow when tieiing into dead. I always score mark the tree to see just ohow dead it is before I spike up.I like to cut my first few small limbs and see how they hold just a back cut and see how the tree reacts. If I can shake the tree alot no matter how big it is its pretty dead.

I guess a pully is a anti-friction device, causing weight-mass-force to be distrubuted more evenly thru the system.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 10, 2006)

True, true. Today I was in a massive oak and the order of the day was getting the overextended limbs either removed, or pruned back. We were over top of a slate roof and copper gutters. It was an absolute no-mistake day. I brought the video camera and had Nick shoot a few clips. This was a classic for this thread as I was doing solo aerial lowering directly over the roof.

I was controlling the rope, which allowed Nick to use the hook on the pole saw to hook the limb and pull it away from the slates, and I'd continue lowering til we touched down. Now, if he were controlling the rope from the ground, there would have been little chance he could have also been controlling the two sticks and a saw head, all at the same time while I waited and watched. As it was, both the husband and wife were home watching this technical area, making sure I didn't drop a twig on their slates (they had been very clear with me of their concern regarding this).

The solo aerial lowering was just the ticket. I would voice how I had rigged, where the friction points were, and what I expected to happen. Then the cut. Then a slow, deliberate lowering (slow for the sake of the clients watching).

I did some 2:1 lowering, some 1:1 lowering, some with the rope chokering the limb and a few with the slings chokering the limb and the rope hooked to the sling. I think I got all of these methods on video for you to see, and I ask kindly that the moderators allow me the privledge of showing this. We took the time to set it up and shoot it, and I will be a couple hours editing, compressing and formatting the clips. After all the time and effort to bring you the techniques on video, it would be crushing for me to get bleeped. The scenes will demonstrate complete control. I even have one clip, a sizable limb (meaning it weighs more than I do) directly over the roof. I set my friction up at 4 points and was able to belay the limb down, _no-handed_, using a light touch with my foot as the control.

Now, yes, I was showing off for the camera and my clients where one misjudgement would have obliterated the fee I was charging for the work. In a most technical of situations I was belaying the limb down with my foot? I did this just to show it's possible, and how.

If the moderators would let me show it......

For now, here's a little time lapse of the tree on a day where we got rained out. The new footage will have to wait. We did a 12 hour day today and I'm too pooped to get into the editing, or even to see how it came out (no guarantees, folks).

Thank you for you patience. Moderators. please don't bleep me when I get this posted. It is anything but reckless and unsafe.


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## 046 (Apr 10, 2006)

sure wish I could see that clip in real time...
Please!!!


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## xtremetrees (Apr 11, 2006)

Hoooa! My take down video has been approved on google here it is bro's
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9190096815955499768


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## 046 (Apr 11, 2006)

can't get link to work?


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## reachtreeservi (Apr 13, 2006)

*Where's the friction device?*

 Where's the friction device? 
Looks like you are making good time though.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 14, 2006)

xtremetrees, for 1, that clip looks sped up or youve got the fastest cutting saw ive ever seen. for 2, did you free climb up that pole and only tie in with your flipline when you got to the top? If so that is DODGY. Sorry but i dont care how fast that is, if a climber did that on my jobsite theyd be given a final warning that they be fired if caught doing that again. To the sensitve moderators that wont allow tree machine to rationally discuss his techniques but let us watch free climbing, whats up with that?
Trev


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## xtremetrees (Apr 14, 2006)

Trev- I intentionally made the video with flaws to help illustrate what not to do. Here's what a friend said I did wrong. 
" climbing spar without lanyard
climbing to top of spar with chainsaw on instead of hauling it up
no climbing rope to use for an emergency exit
saw was running as he climbed up the spar...but that might be from only below the camera. I don't like seeing people move with a running saw on a lanyard. All it takes is bump to knock the chain brake. 
it seemed like every snap cut had a piece of barber chair bark attached. It shouldn't have done that if he did a kerf cut."
I agree with all the point made so far, even the point you make trev about the saw being a bit to overpowerful for such a small tree.


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## 1I'dJak (Apr 14, 2006)

hey man good vid... it takes balls to post that stuff here cuz you know everbody's gonna hack on ya! If i posted pics of me working here i'd probably be so humiliated i'd never climb again! I must say, i haven't been climbing that long and work in a situation where the boss usually takes off, so i teach myself quite a bit...this site and posts like this have proved very valuable...
word


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## xtremetrees (Apr 14, 2006)

Gratefully I was originally taught to climb trees to the top then safety in. I have a fear of heights but this helped me overcome it, I rarely (no-safety) climb to the top of trees. This was a short 25 foot stubb. I should have jumped out of the tree to pratice landing on my feet. You must land on your feet if youve any chance to surive a fall.

This week my new ground man lowered me 60 feet on a munter hitch, he found it thrilling.opcorn:

Edit: Lowered on a grenade gate carabiner. I feel if I was on a ball lock biner the knot could have escaped the gate resulting in a frictionless fall


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## xtremetrees (Apr 14, 2006)

yeah my life was in dudes hands.. Cant you see why?


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## coydog (Apr 14, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> To the sensitve moderators that wont allow tree machine to rationally discuss his techniques but let us watch free climbing, whats up with that?
> Trev


 I have to second that, and also pose the same question to the moderators, for more often than not this site seems to cater to1: a lot of posturing , showing off, and inflated egos, 2: a whole plethora of off topics or 3: a load full of high minded preaching to the choir. None of which really does anything to discuss anything new or innovative for the experienced arborist. When someone offers to share their tricks on-line at the very least a reason should be posted publicly to justify censoring of such posts.Any technique can be practiced unsafely, and there are certainly no shortage of questionable techniques that are freely discussed and even encouraged on this site(use of dutchman's, working alone, lowering entire trees on their hinge ,etc.) that I am finding it difficult to understand the rationale of the blanket and repeated censoring of a particular technique for lowering small pieces of wood. In the meantime this thread continues to sway back and forth from on and off topic and become continuously muddled with such nonsense as advice to always land on your feet if falling out of a tree. are we adults and professionals here ? Please justify.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 15, 2006)

Are there any other places that will allow a free and open discussion of all-things-arbocultural? Doing a little web searching might turn up one or two other places that allow video hosting and free flowing conversations.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 15, 2006)

You better land on your feet coy dog if it happens. And you got about 2 seconds to figure that out.

No Tom theres not many other places I can think of 2 other beings ISA forum is down.

Edit: I continually re-evaluate myself, and regualry take inventory of my pratices aloft. I dont want to send anyone to the hospital. It's important for me to be gut wrenching honest about my techniques and pratices. I come here to learn the only way I can do that is to show you exactly, thru pics and videos, of what I'm talking about.

Lissen, we rule out 1000 things that can go wrong every single day. Of all the twigs that could go for the eye permanently blinding you, of all the chunks the groundman watches you bomb. I'm very lucky, and this forum helps me stay that way.

046 you may have to download the google video player. I had to wait 3 days for my video to be approved.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 16, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Are there any other places that will allow a free and open discussion of all-things-arbocultural? Doing a little web searching might turn up one or two other places that allow video hosting and free flowing conversations.


You know, Tom, you bring up a very good point. See, I came into this thread knowing I was going to get bleeped, so no big surprise. If I were to share this openly at another site that would allow free sharing of all things arboricultural it would certainly mean one thing: that it didn't get discussed here.

That's all good and well, but the question got asked here. 

I don't have a burning desire to take the time to assemble images and video clips and put together a couple illustrations. I don't mind taking the time to fully describe some methods in pictures, illustration and video (monster oak over a slate roof home, yum!). What was i saying? , oh, just that the question was asked, and I have some good stuff that pertains to the question, which is, "Do you guys lower stuff from up in the tree, and how?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 16, 2006)

Xtreme posed the question:


Xtreme said:


> Friction devices aloft
> Do you use them?


I am saying, YES, all the time and am offering to share how it's done, or a series of techniques. This would just be how the Tree Machine does it whis is in no way intended as a suggestion that YOU do it. Personally, I think you should do whatever you're doing if it works for ya.

It has been explained to me through a good number of fellow arborists in e-mails and phone calls of why I'm being censored. If I can't show and explain the techniques, then maybe I can share why (I think) this material is not passing inspection. It really _does_ make sense and I am really, fully, in agreement with it.

The reason(s) are based on physics. What you are doing up there when belaying down a limb is controlling friction from in front of you. This can be done in two ways: EITHER you set a sling onto the tree with a friction control device on the sling, OR the friction control device is attached to YOU. The latter is where I'd like to start. Any one of you could go out right now and show us how to set a sling on a tree part, attach a friction device and pass the rope through it. BUT, you will be slow, well, not really slow, but not swift. To adopt this technique, aside from the need for it to be safe, it needs to be faster than the way you're currently doing it.

The way I'm showing would be where the friction device is attached permanently to the front of your saddle. It is a 24/7 friction controller used for lowering small limbage. Since it is attached to you, it is most controversial to suggest that others try this, which _again_ I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and do this. I'm just sharing a few ways that it can be done.

The bottom line, as I am to interpret this, is the physics of the rope going UP through the friction device is the same as the friction device going down the rope. The point? You can use the device for both personal friction control and for lowering limbage.

There are a lot of devices out there that will work. All of them offer that if you use the piece to lower limbage, you can also use the same device to rappel down. This takes the friction hitch completely out of the picture. By using spliced ends on ALL rope, there is hardly a need for knots.

A world of arboriculture without friction hitches or knots????

Can you see why my respected elders do not wish this to be discussed? In the arborist world, this is New School. No Blakes or taughtlines, no split tails, no VT's, tress cords, 2:1 systems are now purely optional, traded in on 1:1 swiftness where 100% of the friction you control from a piece of metal attached to the front of your saddle .

That's the deal, guys and gals. On the outside it would appear TM is showing how to lower limbs from the tree, but what is really being shown is an entirely unique 1:1 climbing system that allows the option to lower limbs from up in the tree using the same device as you use to control YOUR friction on your lifeline when working the crown.

I can see where the friction hitch world would be intimidated by this.


There are also associated risks with lowering limbs from up in the tree where the friction device is attached to you. This totally makes sense. Perhaps if we discussed these risks rationally maybe then we can see the pictures. Compare this to the use of a chainsaw, inherent risks, we discuss and illustrate kickback to better understand it, but we go on using the saws.

I ask the moderators to allow me, in the context of describing the limb-lowering-from-up-in-the-tree methods, to include rational safety advice alongside, what could or does go wrong, and what to do to prevent it, the limitations of the device and ways that the device could be improved. If I do this will you let me share? 

What do you think, Xtreme?


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## 046 (Apr 17, 2006)

very interesting developments... 

Auto-locking belay devices like Petzel Grigri are popular at gyms with climbing walls. they also have a reputation for being mis-used leading to people getting hurt using auto belay devices.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 17, 2006)

There are a LOT of options if you commit to climbing on 11 mm rope. The world of mechanical devices is open to you. SRT, DdRT, DbRT, interchangable.

11 mm rope
Spliced eyes and biners
mechanical friction handling

This is new school climbing.

I would think in Search and Rescue and the rock disciplines as well as Alpine mountaineering it would be necessary to belay something down, like an injured human or gear. Being able to do this in the tree is the same stuff that they do, only we would do it with a great deal more frequency and practice and we can be _experts_ at aerial rigging and lowering of limbs up to 2-3 times your weight. As well as anything else. Practice makes perfect.

We should discuss ways to improve any friction device we talk about. This is a device that needs to be flawless. Like good Arboristsiters I'm sure we'll pull it apart and scritinize it good and hard, as Men's and Women climbers using the device may be putting their life on it. Any device will have to be 100% failsafe.

I don't think that device exists yet.

Maybe the censorators will let me describe what I believe to be that device. Since it is conceptual and doesn't exist we would be, in essence, 'creating it' here in the public forum.

Now can _that_ be against the rules?


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## trevmcrev (Apr 17, 2006)

Keep at it Tree Machine!, in the meantime i hope these moderators are aware of the concept that a little bit of information can be very dangerous and that at the moment people might be trying to figure this out without all the info available to us from the likes of those such as the Tree Machine that are already safely using such systems. At the end of the day, when we get all the uncensored info we will make a choice as to how safe we see that practice to be and decide for ourselves whether or not we feel safe doing so.
Its not as though we will all run out and do something that could be risky just because someone else did it. In this industry we are all taking pretty big, but measured, calculated risks every moment of every day.
:deadhorse: 

Trev
Ps. If you dont get a reply from me within 24hrs someone please come looking for me as i may have torn myself in 1/2 up in a tree somewhere trying to lower a branch!!! Not.


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## 046 (Apr 17, 2006)

personally don't trust spliced eyes, would much rather tie knot myself. that way I KNOW it was done correctly. 

seems that if one belays down only small loads, less than your own body weight. you have to staying within safe load capacity of equipment. 

TM what self belaying device(s) are you using?


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## xtremetrees (Apr 17, 2006)

TM wrote, "The bottom line, as I am to interpret this, is the physics of the rope going UP through the friction device is the same as the friction device going down the rope. The point? You can use the device for both personal friction control and for lowering limbage."
You'll have to ask tree spyder about that one TreeMachine.

I agree with others who simply have to tie the knot.. I always have and always will probably. I like to set it taught on my limbs and even reach further out to grab against a latteral stubb. Remeber 5 feet is alot in a tree. I once knew a climber that kept tied two monkey fist at the ends of his rope. He never untied them and used the fist to make his knots and threw his rope alot.I've had one or two limbs excape my running bowlin in several years with not so good results. Where your tieing knots or slinging large top bark seperation seem to be about equal with both techniques the facctor of weight seems more inportant that attachment technique.

I say I do not mix my gear. I.E. Lower(working) and personal(life) but alas I dnly my figure 8 have I lowered a few pieces and return it to my saddle for escaping purposes. Maybe 10 times in 6 years I have lowered (mixed) my figure 8 into working purposes. I need a fig. 8 just for lowering. 

My climbing rope is exclusively my own and I do not lower with it. Often I need to wait and call for a lowering line I thought the limb I could sling but could not.

Things look different from aloft. A top you thought from the ground would go, wont. A limb you thought was short and would clear from the grouond wont.

I try and plan my climbs from the ground. Thought I wont spend alot of time looking at a tree I'll just do it. 

I'm always fighting in my head my old way techniques with new safer ones. Anymore I'll try and take the safer route. For instance it took me almost 1 hour to do a dead pine which in my youth I'd have down in 15 minutes.Only because I'm more aware of what can and will go wrong. I will stand on the dead tops and observe all movement i.e. up and down the tree also side to side sway.

On dead trees I just wont hardly at all lower limbs from them. Dead pines especially. I think speedlinning from dead is even more risky than standard lowering. 

Hopefully, I've got 2 110 foot pines this month. I'd like to climb to the top, tie in rappell down 10 feet attach a speedline, rapell down start my work, speedlinning only by tightening and looseing the rope against the tree.

I suspect you do alot of this TM pulling(tightening) the rope away from the tree while limb and stap are still attached, then make your cut.
slacking the line back to the tree and so on and so forth.??


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## Tree Machine (Apr 17, 2006)

Yessir, Mr X. I speedline with the ground end anchored near the chipper and I reposition and tension from up in the tree. It's very similar in nature to the lowering of a limb. Just controlling friction against dynamic tension, rather than friction against a hanging weight and constant, predictable gravity.


trevmcrev said:


> At the end of the day, when we get all the uncensored info we will make a choice as to how safe we see that practice to be and decide for ourselves whether or not we feel safe doing so.In this industry we are all taking pretty big, but measured, calculated risks every moment of every day.


It's really not that risky, not if you follow the common sense guidelines of not going too big and not using your lifeline for lowering limbage.


046 said:


> TM what self belaying device(s) are you using?


I use a lot of different devices for working the crown and abseiling. I'll try anything that comes along, and I'll revisit devices I haven't used in awhile, just to keep things stirred up. There are hundreds of different ways to control friction up front, lots of devices and it's not so important what I'm using this week.

Besides, one of the issues here, I think, is that if you use a device to control friction to lower yourself, you can use the same device to lower the limb. This has thrown a red flag up, just because the possibility of this concept exists. 

This is not what I'm suggesting you do, nor maybe, is it the way I do it, but The potential is there to dual-use a device this way, in both lowering a limb and lowering yourself. The elders know that the practice of lowering limbs from aloft is done by many, and that the technique of lowering a limb to the ground solo and retrieving your rope from upstairs is nothing new.

The part that scares the moderators is that it is so easy. Every one of you can do it now with what gear is on your saddle. When you figure how to lower limbs, out of speed, ease of use, convenience you'll try controllling your personal friction in the same manner and then you'll be lowering a limb and abseiling on the same rope at the same time, riding the limb down like a floating snowboard.

See, the Mods are trying to protect yourself from your own self and I have to side with that. Work positioning is everything in this industry. Working the rope and blending friction with gravity. This goes for lowering a limb from aloft, or yourself coming down the rope. Personally, I feel if the limb does not weigh any more than you that the rope and device wouldn't know the difference. Weight is weight, right? The difference is in that if you lower a limb and mess up, the limb may come down. If you lower YOU and mess up, you may come down and this is not as OK. One arbobuddy said that you guys would do stupid things like lower the limb to the ground, and then use it for an 'anchor', using single rope technique then to work the crown, or to rappel down. As tempting as this stuff might be, I have to go with the moderators on this one and agree that a little information can be a dangerous thing.


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## woodchux (Apr 17, 2006)

"a little information can be a dangerous thing"

Sooooo true, 
That is exactly why we need ALOT of information on this subject.
PLEASE allow us to make informed, educated decisions about this subject .
It could SAVE someones life !!


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## 046 (Apr 17, 2006)

a HUGE part of the problem of getting info off AS is separating wheat from the chaff. 

it's always buyer beware!!! 

going from quality of TM's postings, it's plain TM knows what he is doing. 

Tom D, Gypo, Lakesides, lopa, skewl, etc, etc and yes even Simon has posted some quality content. 

but you always gotta watch it, even Tom D will throw a boner once in a while. 

video a few posts above, free climbs. then ropes in on top. 
some beginner could accidently see that, not read disclaimer shortly below and think that's the normal way you do it. 

As always NEVER use internet as your only source of information! find an experienced pro to learn from.
start slow and low...


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## tophopper (Apr 17, 2006)

I dont understand why TM is being censored for discussing rigging.

Maybe if the mods would speak up with a valid reason, but to this point it seems like someone is on a power trip.

How bout it mods? Is there a valid reason?


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## sawn_penn (Apr 17, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> I would think in Search and Rescue and the rock disciplines as well as Alpine mountaineering it would be necessary to belay something down, like an injured human or gear.



In mountaineering you work with what you have at hand. Body belay, munter hitch, whatever. It doesn't need to be strong, because your anchors rarely are (ice axe in snow, etc.) Rarely are you dealing with a vertical drop either - more likely a slide on a steep slope.

In vertical lowering (cliff and cave rescue SAR scenarios) a regular descender is inadequate when loaded with two people. Generally you will need extra rope wraps around a carabiner or something similar to get the load under control.

A limb of 2-3x body weight will be a similar problem. You need to be able to find enough friction to keep the load under control. Also, because limbs weight widely differring amounts, you need enough variable friction to cope with all cases.

In my experience, a good personal descender is always a hopeless rescue descender and visa versa. My choice for a rescue descender is a whaletail or a goldtail (big metal bars with slots cut in the sides), and my choice for a personal descender is a Petzl Stop. Petzl Stops are great primarily because you can easily pull rope backwards through the descender. 

Of course, my expertise isn't in trees...


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## Tree Machine (Apr 17, 2006)

tophopper said:


> I dont understand why TM is being censored for discussing rigging.


It's not the rigging. It's the potential for a man to misuse the information and possibly get hurt. This subject came up about 2 years ago and it didn't fly then. There were technical limitations to the system that I think can be easily overcome (will explain more).

Personal aerial rigging boils down to controlling friction. Controlling it under the weight of yourself, or that of a limb. Controlling it with precision which gives you confidence and you can try more and more interesting things and also importantly, make more money because of increased swiftness and abilities.

All this, and it boils down to one simple device for handling rope. 

I would like to 'conceptually' share the idea of this device. It does not exist. But with a little digital help, I can share the idea visually. Maybe some of you can pitch in and offer thoughts.

For the naysayers who may jump in and try to denegrate some good, rational idea sharing, y'all can bugger off. 

I'm going to start throwing down some pictures. Some of them I'm going to have to Photoshop and there may be some illustrations that have to be created. If the censors would understand there is time involved and I fully believe that the reading audience is CLEAR that this is for lowering limbage no more than twice the climbers weight. That would be cuts, maybe big around as your forearm.

Are we all in agreement on that? 

I will take silence as a 'yes'.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 17, 2006)

.:taped:


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## Tree Machine (Apr 17, 2006)

Well OK then.

Moderators, step back from the censor button. Everyone's vote was cast and it was _unaminous_.  


Oh great censor gods  

let me show them the cool stuff....


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## a_lopa (Apr 17, 2006)

good points made


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## reachtreeservi (Apr 18, 2006)

*For GOD's sake man!*

a lopa Please get rid of that avatar. Sure , You can use that. But why ?


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## trevmcrev (Apr 18, 2006)

reachtreeservi said:


> a lopa Please get rid of that avatar. Sure , You can use that. But why ?



Yeah it freaks me out everytime i see it!!!


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## sawn_penn (Apr 18, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> For the naysayers who may jump in and try to denegrate some good, rational idea sharing, y'all can bugger off.




I hope my comments about good/bad descenders didn't make me seem like a "naysayer". I'm always interested in new ideas.

I don't think I've been censored yet, but I have some quick release knot ideas that have been used for lowering equipment in caves that'll probably get me bleeped.  I'll go and read the rules again before I post anything....


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## Tree Machine (Apr 18, 2006)

The naysayers I speak of are not involving themselves in this thread, but they're out there, waiting at the edge to jump in and tear this thing apart.

I welcome this, as any methods used by others should be able to stand up to any amount of scrutiny. What I don't want is naysayers jumping in and badgering it for the sake of stirring up controversy.

There doesn't need to be controversy. If someone wants to add value to this thread by bringing in _factual data_, something solid to justify your fault-finding, critical stance, then that is entirely welcome here. If you want to spout off with some emotional knee-jerk reaction, then bugger off.

If there are limitations, I'll be very open in sharing and listening to creative ways of improving.

Remember, this is a _concept friction control technique[/] using a device that doesn't exist. Since it's a virtual idea, we can digitally alter the design to modify the cyber-piece and overcome any current limitations.

This may sound totally whack to some of you, but I really believe this can happen, right here in front of all of us. 

Should we just go ahead and invite Kong, Italy into the thread? It will be mostly pictures, illustrations and video from here on out and will transpire languages. 

Or do we douche-bag this thread right now?_


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## coydog (Apr 18, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> There doesn't need to be controversy. If someone wants to add value to this thread by bringing in _factual data_, something solid to justify your fault-finding, critical stance, then that is entirely welcome here. If you want to spout off with some emotional knee-jerk reaction, then bugger off.
> 
> If there are limitations, I'll be very open in sharing and listening to creative ways of improving.
> 
> There really can't be any informed controversy or specific critique unless we are allowed to have an open discussion.You can insinuate and leave hints all day but every time you actually try to share your technique you are censored, so it really leaves us guessing except that you have a technique for lowering off your saddle without a groundie untying your branches. I can think of a half dozen ways you could be doing this but it's all speculation. I personally would not advocate lowering with my line or with a device attached from my saddle but I would be very interested to see what you are doing and perhaps get an idea that I could innovate from. That's why I like this site and continue to visit, to get ideas and see what others are doing. And yes Tom I know of the other sites but as far as I'm aware this particular discussion is not being shared elsewhere either. besides I like this site.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 19, 2006)

dog said:


> I can think of a half dozen ways you could be doing this but it's all speculation.


That right there hits the doggie on the noodle. We have all done this stuff, in one form or another. All the readers here (What'r we up to? About 17 or so?  ) will be able to go out and try this, and with some understanding of how much quicker your rigging and lowering times can be, they may start employing the practice, mingling it into their bag of tricks when appropriate.

The problem we all need to understand (at the expense of repeating myself) that guy's will go with bigger limbs until there are accidents. We just don't want this to happen. Next is that you can use the same method of lowering limbs as with rapelling. Noobies who haven't gotten into the friction hitch thing will see the appeal and use it for rappel / descent, as well as lowering limbs. The problem with _that_ is that they're noobies and this device doesn't actually exist, though we're all packing something close enough that you can all go out and try it for real. This unmodified, off-the-shelf piece has limitations and without spelling them out, I would be irresponsible in letting you think these methods are OK to use.

Method for lowering limb = A-OK
Method for abseil= Not OK (not yet, but we can describe a device where this could be OK)


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## xtremetrees (Apr 19, 2006)

I dont like speedlinning because of the fishing pole effect. Lets say your sppedlinning a long limb and the tip of the limb hist the ground first frocing the dynamics of the movement of the limb ie speed back intot he line itself. THe effect is the same when hanging large trees, everthing goes well until the apex is reached and unless the tree limb your rigging with is larger than the tree your hanging it will fail. The bounce of two fishing poles will be disatterous bro you cant expect tree to withsatnd that much force they will blow right up on you and wham! limb breakage or in your case speedlinning fishing pole effect in two places.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 19, 2006)

You seem very xperienced at this TM. What would you say to speedlinning leaning trees do you get the twisting motion? Is it like standing atop a cobra's head as it twist left to right? I wouldnt subject that kinda force to trees alot expecially hollow ones because the cylinder strengths we all come to rely on on hollow trees would be compromised.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 19, 2006)

I'm gonna start calling TM the PetzlFanBoy. lol

Tm you have done absolutely everything with nothing for so long you can now do nothing with everything. Thats smooth operator to me bro,


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## Tree Machine (Apr 19, 2006)

Hey X, 

Speedlining is a really good topic to bring up, #1 because it involves using a device aloft to lower limbs, just you lower them at an angle. #2 the method I use is just about identical to the solo limb lowering.

For TM, though, speedlining is a 2-man job (you need someone to send your slings back up). Since I always anchor to the chipper, I have someone to feed brush just for the efficiency. I do the setting of the rope right there aloft, tension and de-tension. (I would be happy to show you how).


The way you describe the possible doom of trees twisting and spars fish-poling tells me the material you are working with is too big. I don't use speedlining unless called for because of the choice of other faster ways.
TM really doesn't rig unless he has to.

Did you hear me Xtreme? You are RIGGING TOO BIG. This is the safety point I keep coming back around to. Even when you master the art of friction control and you're getting very confident, you'll lower what you have to lower, but you'll find by experience what is 'too big'.

When you get really swift with lowering stuff out of the treetops, I promise you will never want a groundman to handle a rope again because in the time it takes to voice what you want the groundman to do, you could have yourself rigged and started the saw. The setup is remarkably fast, and you take your time while doing the cut and be ready to kill saw and belay most immediately. I have much to say about that critical moment of crossover. It is one of my favorite places. That's when you're _in the crucible_.

It naturally becomes fast when you don't have to involve a second person in the process. You just need to accept this method as small limb, like no more than 2 or three times your weight.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 19, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> I'm gonna start calling TM the PetzlFanBoy. lol


I'm anything but exclusive to Petzl. The friction controller I use is not by Petzl. I like everybody, esp, DMM and KONG and some Black Diamond stuff.

Petzl would never, ever approve a device to be used for lowering limbs out of the tree. I mean, _never_. They're not even part of this discussion.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm finished with the safety disclaimers.

If you choose to lower limbs from aloft BE SAFE. Common sense will rule. If you don't use your head you'll create your own problems.

There. I'm done.







Shall we see if the censors are hawking in?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2006)

Hey, :censored: you 


you :censored:ing
 


:censored:!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2006)

Ahhh, alive and well.


That would make a good bumper sticker, _Censor you, you censoring censor_






Let's give it a try.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 20, 2006)

so your using an ATC. air traffic controller?


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## Mikkel Ravn (Apr 20, 2006)

*The Lock-block*

Hi all,
I'm a new member to this site, but have been reading along for a couple of years. I'm a part-time pro residing in Denmark.

Just wondering if anyone has checked out the Lock-Block? Seems it would be well suited for lowering while aloft:

http://www.verticalpro.net/lockblock.html

If anyone's used this, what do you think?


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## xtremetrees (Apr 20, 2006)

Dude thats the bomb. I really like that device and how it doesnt double the load like a pully does. Ive never seen this device used in our industry.anywhere kool gear imma order one.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 20, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Ahhh, alive and well.
> 
> 
> That would make a good bumper sticker, _Censor you, you censoring censor_.




I have a t shirt with that on it 

Trev


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2006)

Hi Mikkel! Welcome to Arborisite.

So cool that you could step in and contribute. A most Excellent link. I had come across that device about a year ago. I forgot to bookmark it and , whatever, I lost it. And there it is!

Thank you, Mikkel. That nugget from Denmark and an F you, you F-ing F T-shirt confirmation from my friend Trev in Australia. We're getting contributors from around the world.... I think we're up to about 23 readers now who give a crap about lowering limbs out of trees.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 20, 2006)

*Mikkel's reference - LockBlock*

This could work for a lot of guys......











The stuff I'm going to show you is simpler and more boiled-down, but the concept, relative to the lock block is identical; controlling friction with absolute precision and control. The lock block will just let you do the things I'm telling you NOT to do. With the lockblock, I would put that on a 1 M rated sling and just choker it wherever. This would be a cool device, I am willing to try it, but I doubt I'll use it much. I'm the kind of climber who likes to climb way out to the tips and start cutting there. I rarely rig big limbage, but I'd be quite tempted to keep it in the tool arsenal for when big is appropriate.


Just remember, guys, the bigger you rig and cut and control yourself, the more the potential for disaster. We all know this.


The methods I'll describe are for where you're over super sensitive areas, like slate roofs, copper gutters, glass greenhouses; where you need to rig it out piece by piece until you solve the problem. It may, in those moments, not matter how much time it takes, only that the piece-out is done with precision, confidence and total control of what you're doing. 

Control of friction, masterful work positioning. Proper rigging scenarios, precision cutting. 

Don't you just _LOVE_ being a treeguy????


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 21, 2006)

That is Dave Spenscer's company; he has been on and off arbo boards for a decade. He helped do leverage of lean, DWT and speedline tension force calculators on my site.

Device offers free pull for pretightening direction, but friction in lowering direction. Usually you either have good pretightening, or good lowering friction, this gives both of best worlds. i use a round turn on support with a remote sweating line at center for pretightening, then let the roundturn handle the friction on lowering for somewhat of a similar effect.


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## gumneck (Apr 21, 2006)

*"I'm the kind of climber who likes to climb way out to the tips and start cutting there."*


Hey TM, 


Great reading here. In light of the above quote, how would you get say an upright growing pine limb that you couldn't necessarily climb out on but was bigger than you wanted to rig down? Maybe a poor question...


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## xtremetrees (Apr 21, 2006)

Is it rated for 100 lb loads? How would it handlling shock loading and double the weightwould GRSC device be required below?. How the above device accept larger diameter ropes?

Any catching of the rope in the sheves or cheekplates? What is light to medium rigging rating? I know I shouldn't be asking

Treespyder would you believe I met a "Legend" today.

TM do you use one of those?


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## gumneck (Apr 21, 2006)

gumneck said:


> *"I'm the kind of climber who likes to climb way out to the tips and start cutting there."*
> 
> 
> Hey TM,
> ...



TM,
Maybe a pic for example:


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## gumneck (Apr 21, 2006)

sorry 

Smaller file size for the po folks(me included)


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 22, 2006)

This dang system of interwoven instead of sequential posts is tough to keep up on and find what sub categories of a topic are listed up in hierarchy above fer my tastes.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 22, 2006)

Then let's stay on topic, which is about lowering limbs from aloft.

Gumneck, I would limb it out, then bring the 395 up for an hour or two of entertainment and sawdust making. I would leave any thing bigger than 6" diameter up in the air. Brush gets processed one way, wood, another, and I try not to mingle them on big takedowns.

But on Gum's question, supposing ALL those limbs had to be lowered. A Lock Block would be an Excellent choice. I would carry a rated lifting sling, the LockBlock and a steel locking caribiner and have a grand 'ol time. The Lock Block would be perfect for taking Gum's pine apart. In the smaller-scale system I'll show you, many time I incorporate the tree limb or crotch into the friction scenario. On a conifer, that's a bad idea, pitch and stick ropes. The Lock Block keeps the rope off the tree.

Do I own one? No. Do I want one?, yes. Will I buy one?, yes. Absolutely. This fits perfectly into the way I handle friction aloft, it just give mme the option to go bigger with the same precision control of frictio coming out of my hand. I will still use what I use, but the Lock Block will find a happy home here. Rigging goes far beyond the treetops and I'll find all kinds of nifty ways to use it.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 22, 2006)

I'd love to cut your pine tree in 3 cuts. Not including the stubb, which I'd throw:deadhorse:


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## woodchux (Apr 22, 2006)

Does anyone know the price on one of those "loc blocks" ? 
I can't find a price anywhere , but i'd like to try one out.


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## gumneck (Apr 22, 2006)

Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. I was just curious how TM would handle the upright large pine limb since he normally climbs out to the tips. I thought that was still with the subject since it involves his method to his madness.


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## rbtree (Apr 23, 2006)

I don't think Dave ever finished the Lock Block. As far as I know, it is not yet available for sale.

TM, I like lowering small loads myself often, but I have great rigging crew including groundies. We rig big stuff, use a PW 3, GRCS, and Hobbs....

And my methods of speedlining require ground tensioning...much better, I'd think, than your technique, though I'd like to see it....I often make use of a large rope bight to turn and/or lift limbs using only a speedline. This requires at least a mid tie point, and either a couple guys on the line pulling the bight out of the line which can be up to 15 feet of slack. With a big limb, this can be done with a z-pulley...or even better, the chipper winch. When speedlining heavy loads or applying lots of tension, one much always assure that the anchor points are bomb proof- if not, guying back the tree is wise. 

PM me your email addy, we'll talk, though my time is at a premium of late...


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## xtremetrees (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks for hitting the thread RBTREE the rigging GOD! lol

I suspect as much from the block not being able to withstand our immence forces esp. shock loading but I like the idea of the lock block.

I will be uploading weekly videos in the picture forum. I gotta make more videos than MB and EKKA.. lol

When speedlinning heavy load RB do you guy back at your speedline rigging point? How does the tree react? Ive never guyed back for speedlinning TM have you? I dont like the forces of speedlinning esp when theload hits the ground.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 23, 2006)

Rigging from aloft, using chipper winchesto tighten speedlines, and now GRSC & hobbs.

Sence the lock block isnt available, what other methods do you use to find friction aloft. Beside standard wrapping the rope around itself or threading it over limbs.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 23, 2006)

i like guying back for a speed line, sometimes even anchoring to tree behind me and guying it, then laying it across tree i'm working.

Mike Maas has talked of a Harken Block(?) i believe that has the 1 way feature.

i like stuff like RoundTurn with a remote sweat line in it for pretightening. This like the 1 way blocks allows me to pretighten hard and have high support friction too. This would be for pivoting branches around and laying into line, not impacting. The line tension helps keep it up and steer, the lack of elasticity from less rope before friction and pretightening keep it up and steer. Soemtimes i use the length of stick between hinge and hitch to leverage line even tighter as hinge is folding, to be super tight at tearoff. this also can force a stronger hinge to give stronger hinge and higher line tension at once. The portion of stick between hitch and hinge after tearoff, then becoming ballast for the heavier green end for more float, and load higher than if held upside down by end.

One way i do that is to lay load down into the tight line purposefully some on horizontal limbs, to be swept horizontally to side using it's weight and the distance between hitch and hinge to leverage rope tighter. Sometimes take that a step further, and kind fake to fold Left away from a support that is going to take it Right. Then the line can really tighten hard (if already tight), as it is moving further from support to stretch line, rather than moving load towards support to give line tension some relief! Then, as it folds Left on hinge and line tension builds, i will start backcutting towards Right, and let the line tensionpull the limb around.

i drew Rock Around the Clock Strategy for self tightening line before tearoff, and tighter steering in this Drawing for AS years ago

i maid attatched pic for something else, but shows the remote sweat and RoundTurn on support.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 23, 2006)

Dave Spencer is a good friend of mine. He sent me prototypes of both Lock Blocks to use. They work very well. Finding a company to insure the manufacturing and use of such a specialized piece of equipment takes the profits out of the picture.

I've been lurking on this thread with a smile on my face. The basic solution is used all of the time. Hang a [fill in your favorite friction device here] in the tree and lower the limbs from above. Been doing that for years.

If the AS censors are truly wielding their power and deleting the discussion of a really basic rigging concept then this site has slid further down the slope. What would the purpose be of editing content?

TM...in plain language, what is your setup for above ground friction?


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## woodchux (Apr 23, 2006)

The porta wrap mini could be used for solo lowering of limbs.
Just pull the slack rope back up after limb hits ground.View attachment 33310


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## 046 (Apr 23, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Dave Spencer is a good friend of mine. He sent me prototypes of both Lock Blocks to use. They work very well. Finding a company to insure the manufacturing and use of such a specialized piece of equipment takes the profits out of the picture.
> 
> I've been lurking on this thread with a smile on my face. The basic solution is used all of the time. Hang a [fill in your favorite friction device here] in the tree and lower the limbs from above. Been doing that for years.
> 
> ...



thanks, Tom... so that's what all the dancing around has been about???


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## Tree Machine (Apr 23, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> The basic solution is used all of the time. Hang a [fill in your favorite friction device here] in the tree and lower the limbs from above. Been doing that for years.
> 
> TM...in plain language, what is your setup for above ground friction?




As Tom says, guys have been lowering stuff from up in the tree, probably since the beginning of arboriculture.

In plain language, what is my setup? It varies a lot, but it's always quick, easily set up and taken down. In answering Tom's bottom line question, 
Slings and Biners. 

The simplest method for lowering limbs out of the tree is to toss the rope over a limb or through a crotch and hand-belay the limb down. This involves no friction device whatsoever, not even a sling or a caribiner, just the tree and your hand. This works perfectly well for small stuff over technically difficult places. I'll run the standing end through a caribiner, but only so I know right where it is, but it plays no role in handling friction. We don't worry so much about the friction we are creating on the limb because this simplest method is for _small limbs_.

It should be mentioned that this simplest of aerial lowering systems creates a 1:1 mechanical advantage. Also, the way it's described, the ground guy has to release the limb. The next one I'll show you is a 2:1, allowing you to work heavier loads.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 23, 2006)

Tom Mentions something that should be pretty clear: "Overhead friction devices are nothing out of the ordinary really. We expect arbos to understand the loads developed in rigging systems. What difference does it make if the highest load is at the base of the tree on a rigging device or up in the tree on a different rigging device?"

Devices should be chosen based on the size of the limbs you are lowering; big devices for big limbs, which should be handled by groundmen, GRCS's, Hobb's devices or port-a-wraps. When I used to 'go big' we would do multiple wraps around the tongue of the trailer we were towing. After popping the arse end of the vehicle up off the ground, I began understanding better the forces that I was dealing with. Got tired of frying ropes too. It was either buy a lowering device, or go smaller.

I chose to go smaller, and learn to rig quicker, and not depend on a ground guy any more than possible, nothing more than to remove a chokered rope from a limb. I'll go into some of the numerous advantages in that. The swiftness in one guy quickly rigging severel small limbs can easily be lowered in the same time frame as two guys doing a large one. The aerial technician needs to make the call.

Here's an illustration of how to lower a limb from aloft, using a 2:1 mechanical advantage. This allows you to lift the limb if it gets hung up in branches below, or if you need to lift up a little over the roof or gutters so the ground guy can sink a pole and hook (wire raiser or pole saw hook) into it, a time when you need him to have his hands on a tool, and not on the rope.

Here's a few illustrations, three different ways to acheive essentially the same result.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 23, 2006)

Here's a 4th way of that simple 2:1 scenario. I use eyed terminations, so on as with this rig, the eye gets clipped back onto the same biner through which the rope first passes. Very quick to set up.

After the limb lays on the ground, unclip the eye from the biner, drop it to the ground and start pulling rope. It is in this way that you can lower a limb on a 2:1 system and retrieve your rope from the tree. If you lace the lowering line through a natural crotch, as below, you keep all your rig. Often it's easier to choker a sling onto the limb to be lowered, but you have to give up the one sling.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 23, 2006)

The censors have chilled. We just needed to get the point of SAFETY across, and have everybody on the same page that these are not techniques to be used with big limbs. I think we all get that important point.


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## 046 (Apr 24, 2006)

that is pretty slick, being able to retrieve your line from high up in tree.

anyone reading this thread, knows this technique is for small limbs only!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 24, 2006)

Misleading, why? The friction does add up, allowing less of a grip from your hand. The nice thing about picking up friction from devices or caribiners is that it's a regular, consistent predictable friction. Through a crotch or over a limb, you'll get more more friction, but how much depends on the texture of the bark, diameter of the limb, wet or dry. Steel biners never really change, so the friction they offer remains relatively constant. This consistency offers predictability and results from one climber to the next should be essentially the same.

TreeCo, good point about the limb laying down could pinch the rope, rendering it irrecoverable from aloft, especially if you tie your eye with a big fat knot. A knotted eye also won't pass through a caribiner.

Thanks, 046. If you self-lower, intending to retrieve your rope from aloft, chances are your ground guy will go for the rope to untie it. It's funny when the rope right before him zips out of the limb and back up.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 24, 2006)

This is kinda like untieing your own knot. 

In the pic two -of -the -same.jpeg I'd assume there is two much friction as the limb is lowered down?

I believe this may revolutionize the way use a tree as a friction device aloft. This is really the cats meow when it comes to SELF-RELIANCE it is a milestone for me bro 

This idea I can see why it would be censored. Its still kicking me in the head...

It took 10 pages to reach this


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## xtremetrees (Apr 24, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> The nice thing about picking up friction from devices or caribiners is that it's a regular, consistent predictable friction. Through a crotch or over a limb, you'll get more more friction, but how much depends on the texture of the bark, diameter of the limb, wet or dry. Steel biners never really change, so the friction they offer remains relatively constant. This consistency offers predictability and results from one climber to the next should be essentially the same.
> 
> .


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## xtremetrees (Apr 24, 2006)

TM do tell you have been cuttin trees like this for years?.
Using mechanical advantage is faster,safer, and more self-reliant. This info can save alot of head aches, it keeps the ground guys clear and off your ropes! :notrolls2:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 24, 2006)

i like that technique, have used it for years, use a quick release on the tail to speed it up. With the the line thru krab only is for light limbs only because of the sharp bend. Another way is to lower the first, till 1 end is on ground and hitch is still 4' up or so, then use that tight line to speed line other stuff down on, then pull line out.

A couple of times i've used it to lower to a 2nd story roof, then lowered myself to roof, to cut up and throw off or even re-rig from there to ground in real tough spots. Then swing self off roof.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> That's what I meant. Lowering 300lbs. Is not very difficult to do using one hand so even though it a 2/1 MA due to two legs of the rope on the load. The climber never sees close to 150lbs but really sees loads maybe as low as 20lbs. on the held end.


So true, so true.

I did a rig from the ground yesterday, we were removing a 12" DBH Cherry, vertically, from the ground-up. It looked strikingly similar to Spidey's diagram a page ago.

I asked my ground guy how he'd do it, "4 or 5 wraps around this tree, one guy cutting, one guy holding the rope, another guy moving out the firewood." First, we're only two guys today and second, how would you do it if you were solo, or as we're ABOUT to do it, as if it were one man working alone? "5 wraps?"

This setup was done from the ground, major friction on a vertical trunk, but can just as easily be done on a horizontal limb. It is a near-instant friction set for controlling friction withou any device other than a caribiner. For the sake of the diagram, I will point it out as 'major friction', though it is one of three friction points. The hand control needed is fingertip control

This is another personal rigging scenario where you really want to only do this with smaller trees, and only when you have another tree VERY close.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 24, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Hey Tree Machine, why don't you use a real friction device, why just the biner, or sling and biner. Why not use a GriGri, or an ATC or something?



First, I'm starting with the simplest friction control systems, part of every tree guys rig; slings and biners. This will suffice for light rigging, which is what we're talking about as we've agreed that rigging big, heavy material should NOT be done solo-aerial.

I can and do use mechanical devices aloft, but only when I rig off of 11 mm lines. Most devices are not sized for or 13 mm lowering lines. You're limited on what you can use, but I would still recommend, the simpler, the better.

Here's a typical aerial rig, using one biner and your hand for belay. This may seem similar to taking a wrap, but actually you just flop a bight over the limb and clip it one of two ways. Saves the time having to run and feed rope. With this on, you're depending on the tree for friction, not my favorite means, but I am starting simple here.


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## trevmcrev (Apr 24, 2006)

GO Tree Machine, GO. Dont hold back now. Great stuff, i am definately learning some new tricks here. I understand its limits. It shouldnt be this hard to discuss something like this here.

    

Trev


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## kennertree (Apr 24, 2006)

Great techniques tm. Im starting to enjoy this thread.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 24, 2006)

So far you've seen methods where friction is utilized from the limb/crotch. or by passing through caribiners. I often favor little tricks where the rope either runs alongside itself, causing partial friction of rope upon rope, or where the rope crosses over top of its own self creating friction that can be controlled not just by your belay hand, but by pressure, or tension.

This is what a friction hitch does; friction of rope upon rope, only without a biner in the middle of it.

Here's a pic similar to the ones prior, it looks like a a 2:1 but is actually a 1:1 where there is some rope upon rope friction because the rope passes through one of the slinged biners twice and it passes and runs in opposite directions. This is a good method for aerial lowering of stuff when I have someone to unclip the rope, and the material is getting bigger than 'normal'. This one you get to keep all the slings. I'll show this one in three steps.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 25, 2006)

Here's yet another variation. At times I'll use this simple 3:1 mechanical advantage for lowering things that are questionably too big for solo aerial lowering. This one you can go a bit bigger, the lowering is slower, but still allows you hand control with a very light touch. Big deposit into the friction account passing the rope over a limb in two places.

This one utilizes the friction of one limb, twice, as well as one pass through a biner with minor rope upon rope friction at the biner. Be careful. A 3:1 means for every meter the limb is lowered, three meters of rope pass through your belay hand. Make sure you have enough length in your lowering line.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 25, 2006)

Ive thought often how a short rope could become to short in a hurry TM when applying your technizues. I have also wondered if a smaller diameter yet stiffer rope be more than appreciated as well.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 25, 2006)

Pretty tight bights to be working that rope thru i think; better to come under load with bight, then krab to side of sling that goes up to coonect to single leg/ termination, to secure bight. Not good to impact 3/1 with friction so close cuz no elasticity.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 25, 2006)

Good point, Spidey. What I find, though, is that there will rarely be a shock load for a couple reasons. First, we're not talking big weight here. Second, your control of the cutting and of handling the line avoid the limb 'running'. This keeps the forces in check.

If you're dealing with low mass and low to no acceleration of that mass, your forces will not be much beyond that of the static weight force.



Xtreme, on your question about thinner lines and stiffer rope, I use a retired Velocity as a lowering line every now and then, though it is generally too short to be practical (that's why its retired). I like the fact that it's lighter to schlepp around up there and i can experiment with devices other than slings and biners if I'm in that sort of mood.

11 mm can handle it easily because 1) the weights we're dealing with are not large and 2) your precision cutting and rope handling assure that any shock loads are minimal.

You are a better judge of the weight and behavior of the limb than a ground guy a distance away. With YOU controlling the rope at or near the point of rigging, there is no room for any degree of rope stretch since the distance from rigging-to-limb is so very short.

As long as you don't go too big and create a runaway train (which could happen just as easily from a handler on the ground) the rigging and cutting procedures should be pulled off with precision, confidence and 100% control during all phases.

Hey Spidey, what is the quick-release you use instead of a caribiner when coming around tight bends on a limb? If the bend is that tight, this tells me the limb is quite small and any forces also small. I fully understand about sideloading a steel biner around a limb smaller than the diameter of your wrist, but when it's that small and the forces are minimized by the smallness of the limb and you accurate control of it, I tend not to worry. This is because over the thousands of times I've lowered limbs, I've never experienced a biner blowout or break or failure of any kind. I use the stainless steel non-locking slideline biners from Kong. I use the locking ones for my climbing duties and they never see rigging duties (except for redirects).


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## woodchux (Apr 25, 2006)

Has anyone tried the Tuba friction device ?
Says it will pass knotted ropes easily.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 25, 2006)

I've played with it at the Petzl booth at TCIA. It's a Portawrap-esque device, to big, IMO, for aerial lowering. It would work, but you gotta schlepp it around up there. I do like the design, quite a bit, actually. I would love to test drive one of those if it were made in a mini style, something that could fit in the palm of your hand. I think that has the potential to be exceptional, but it's one of those great devices that doesn't exist yet. I don't see a convenient way to soft lock or hard lock. It needs a couple horns.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 25, 2006)

Like this, or something akin to it.


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## woodchux (Apr 25, 2006)

It'd be nice to have a small device, with a lever for friction control, like the petzel stop or something similar


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## xtremetrees (Apr 26, 2006)

Whats wrong with the black widow and mini portawrap?
You might could even burn an aliumium biner in half, cut it right into? recon?


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## woodchux (Apr 26, 2006)

Iv'e never used blackwidow, but i LOVE my new mini portawrap


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## trevmcrev (May 12, 2006)

*Just when you thought this thread was dead!*

Ok so i had a proper go at lowering from aloft yesterday 
Now as the business owner im not normally onsite but with 2 climbers off at the moment i had to jump in. I think i blew the groundies socks off with this. Perfect tree for it too. Lots of small branches needed lowering. It was so fast they didn't know what was going on, every time they turn around another branch was on the ground, they look up as if to say "how'd you do that" then it changes to "how'd you get the rope back" I look at them like "outta the way, another ones coming"

Priceless.

Thanks Tree Machine for persisting with this. Yes ive done this for the odd small branch before here & there, but not as deliberate method for dismantling much of the tree.

It was back to big rigging today though with the removal of a big Manna Gum. I quoted it and allowed a full day for them, but again climbed it myself and had it done by midday 

Its funny how you sorta forget why you got into this in the first place, but i love climbing, must do it more often, maybe once a week or so for fun (and to keep the "climbers" honest) hahaha.

Trev


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## Tree Machine (May 16, 2006)

Trev McCrev, I'm glad you found a groove. Many times you can pretty much just hand belay a limb without much friction from anything else than your gloved hand, but to have a sling and biner connecting the rope to a limb adjacent to you, keeps the rope from getting away from you and you maintain control at all times. There are methods where some of the friction equation comes from a device which is attached to the climber's saddle. Now that's a totally different chapter. That's the domain I climb in. That would most certainly get the censor stamp.

But back to McTrev and your safe and swift experience. Swift is the word, really. Trev, were you working both ends of the lowering line? Of course you were. You were up there crackin the big whip, workin it safely, really diggin on it. Good on you, Mate.

Sling and a biner. Quite a versatile player on Team Saddle. I like to carry a minimum of three and a max of 6 or 7 for zipline work. Slings are mainstays of the rigging diet, especially when it come to using friction devices aloft, or more often, using the biner as the friction device,


which,


hey.....

That was a point brought up about 11 pages ago, the concept fo a modified biner AS a dedicated friction device. This is that device that doesn't yet exist that would handle friction in a way much differently than it's being done now. We could create that device right here. Just some imagination and Photoshop. We could design it here together. We create a friction device that does not currently exist at Storrick's site, . It would be some work. It would be a stretch to stay focussed on the design and see it through to finish. I don't see the piece being very complex, but since it would be a buildable device, I would volunteer to build it, or at least give it a good whack. :rockn:


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## Tree Machine (May 16, 2006)

Chux said:


> It'd be nice to have a small device, with a lever for friction control, like the petzel stop or something similar


I'll dissuade that because of this: The other day I rigged a tree to take down from the bottom up. It was a conifer, about 40 feet tall (about the limit for me for this technique). I rigged 11 mm line through a Petzl Gri Gri, all held to the base of an adjacent tree with a tuflex rated endless loop sling - this has nothing to do with friction devices aloft, though a GriGri can be used up there, as long as your rope is no bigger than 11 mm in diameter. 

Up in the air, a GriGri would work perfectly well for lowering but for me it would make my rigging unbearably slow and it would not be possible to control shockloading (as mild as they are with small limbage) as precisely as with the hand as the controller of friction.

Here on the ground, as in the illustration, the GriGri was a fair choice, it worked anyway, but the weight was probably 10 or 20 times that of what I'd attempt solo aloft. I would have been better off with a portawrap in the picture.

Anyway, the answer to Woodchux's remark about a device with a handle, I think the Petzl Stop would have been a better choice on the pictured tree too. While lowering a 40 foot tree on old 11 mm Velocity, the cam bound down very hard on the rope, and the handle seemed near the breaking point when I tried to release friction. But actually, it did the job beautifully. I doubt Petzl would approve of such use of their gear, but it worked great with smaller vertical takeups, this tree was bigger than I'd recommend for a small friction device (and small rope, for that matter).

But it's good to know.


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## sawn_penn (May 16, 2006)

woodchux said:


> It'd be nice to have a small device, with a lever for friction control, like the petzel stop or something similar



The lever on a petzl stop is definitely not for friction control. It is for locking off when you are stopped.


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## woodchux (May 17, 2006)

Something like an arborist block with an internal brake is what i had in mind.
Maybe a little something like this, with a control handle that will vary the applied friction.


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## Tree Machine (May 17, 2006)

Do you mean like a bar that would tilt the device, allowing the rope to run more freely? See the device in the lower right of the picture. Are you thinking something like here?


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## woodchux (May 17, 2006)

Or this


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## Tree Machine (May 17, 2006)

So the lever would pull the friction posts apart allowing the rope to run. 

So with hands off, the load would hang, and you use the lever to lower the limb with precision.

I would give something like that a try.


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## woodchux (May 17, 2006)

Tree Machine said:


> Do you mean like a bar that would tilt the device, allowing the rope to run more freely? See the device in the lower right of the picture. Are you thinking something like here?



I am thinking of a bar that engages some type of "brake pad".
Just something that would be consistent , and easy to vary the amount of friction.

Neat little gadget in that link. But I would prefer something more heavy duty.


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## Tree Machine (May 17, 2006)

Weight becomes an issue, speed with which it can be set, how it travels aloft with you when not in use.


Woodchux said:


> I would prefer something more heavy duty.


You get to a certain level of heavy duty, you should maybe be having that device working the rope from the ground, attached to the base of a tree.

I have to keep coming back around to that we've sort of agreed as a general ground rule that in solo aerial lowering from aloft, we're not working with big pieces, so the need for a heavy duty device, while aloft, should be considered carefully.

I would want a good number of features in a tight, compact, highly specialized piece. I'd want the device to multitask. Since this is a concept friction device that does not yet exist, let's dream big and ask some things of it.

I want to be able to apply the device to the rope in under two seconds. That's my #2 requirement. # 1 would be that it would be bombproof safe.

What else? Need to be able to work the device forward and backward with one hand, left or right.

I want the sucker to fit in the palm of my hand.


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## woodchux (May 17, 2006)

A removable or very short control handle would be a good thing.


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## woodchux (May 17, 2006)

Well a removable handle would not be good, just something to drop.
One piece is definitely the way to go.

Maybe a stubby lever handle, a thumb slide, or knob.

A recessed push button would not snag on anything, and would probably be the best choice.

If the inner bushing were to ratchet like a mechanics wrench, you could have a reversible progress capture function. Be good for MA etc.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 18, 2006)

i still like the 1 way pulley strategy, without cam/pawl the bites line. Gives pretightening capability free wheeling rope towards ground, but making friction bollard on load pull side.


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## Tree Machine (May 18, 2006)

I'm with spidey on this one as far as friction strategy goes.

The lever option requires that you have your hand directly on the device. This give potential for your glove, or possibly a long sleeve to get caught up and sucked in beteen rope and metal. No big deal, it happens. Seemingly, the bigger the load, the harder the cam would have to clamp down on the rope and there is a point where perma-pinch may occur, or point damage to the rope. There have been many time where a lowered limb gets hung _and you have to rappell down_ and either dice it in place, wrestle it, or somehow release it. A handled device wouldn't leave you any options but to deal with it while it does a static hang, then go back up to lower it back down. I prefer to be able to lower the limb from wherever I'm standing, or hanging, regardless of where the friction device is.

That's one key benefit of working the friction from the front of your saddle, which if I were using woodchux's handled piece, I would (think...) want to have that attached to the front of my saddle and I would determine whether it could Also be used as my personal friction handler. It's always going to be right there where you need it, working in conjunction with any friction sets you have on the tree, and alongside your lifeline attachment which you also have full control over it, right there in front of your belly. 

Are there ever times you'll need to work your lifeline AND lowering line at the same time? These are the (yum!) moments where you have to expand your skills, either avoid situations more effectively, or get down there and git er done. 

Again, I come back to "Don't do limbs that are too big." If the thing you're lowering solo from aloft is a reasonable size, there's only so much in the way of forces and problems that can occur. Aerial solo work of this nature is not the place to 'go big'. There are other places appropriate for that.


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## Tree Machine (May 18, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I will buy a one way pulley when they hit the market. It's a great idea and will reduce tree loading.


It gets a two-thumbs up from me in all respects except it will allow a guy to go bigger and with this, a guy is more likely to get in trouble.

Still, the one-way pulley has a lot of potential for all kinds of rigging scenarios, basically all that might require a pulley, AND all that require a bollard. Any need for false-crotch, redirect or hauling, this piece can fit. I see it as an amazing multitasker and I really gravitate toward that kind of gear.

Yea, sign me up.


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## xtremetrees (May 18, 2006)

would you rigg to this holler spot.?


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## xtremetrees (May 18, 2006)

One lead of the 4 is already on a fence.
Notice my watch for size comparision.


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## xtremetrees (May 18, 2006)

Here is the fence.
I'm still not sure what caused this multistemmed popular to fail. I guesstimate the tree standing to be 14, 12, and 20 DBH. Tallest extending up to about 90 feet. The one on the fence is about 18 inches DBH and 75 feet tall.

Edit maybe that 26 inches DBH.


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## xtremetrees (May 18, 2006)

Hollar back yo here is the 14 inch


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## xtremetrees (May 18, 2006)

Its the tree in the sky on the left back of the house down below is the holler spot approximately 30 inches of hollow. Therefore I'll be tying into the sweeet gum at about 70 feet up and swinging over to the popular.


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## Ian William (May 21, 2006)

Hi Tree Machine
I have been reading your threads/views on friction devices aloft and find them very interesting.....and have re-read your threads several times over. Can you please expand on these idea's relating to your set up... ie how the connection for rigging is made to your front saddle and what specific tools are used ( figure 8, karabina using munter hitch, grillion or other lowering devices etc ). I see your preference is to use 11 mm rope for lowering.

Found this topic very interesting and informative and hope no censorship will take place with your reply. Any photos/drawings would be helpful

Regards Ian William


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## trevmcrev (May 22, 2006)

Ian William said:


> Can you please expand on these idea's relating to your set up... ie how the connection for rigging is made to your front saddle and what specific tools are used ( figure 8, karabina using munter hitch, grillion or other lowering devices etc ). I see your preference is to use 11 mm rope for lowering.



opcorn: Yeah tree machine, i'm also wondering about this. I've had a go with slings n biners but not too sure about this aspect. I guess a grigri or any device that could belay a person could be used to self belay a branch down up to a similar weight. Some guidance from your experience on this would be great.
Plus ive got a 300 meter roll of 11mm arapaline sitting here just begging for it!!!

TrevMcRev


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## Tree Machine (May 22, 2006)

A couple interested guys from around the other side of the world to ask the direct questions, "Tree Machine.... what are you using up front to control friction?" 

As little as possible.

[sez Trev] I guess a grigri or any device that could belay a person could be used to self belay a branch down up to a similar weight.

Yes, this is true, though I'd like to not discuss the aspect of abseiling. At last count I had tried 60-something devices. What I use for _me rapelling and working a crown_ may change every couple days, or with a mood, or I had a dream last night of how some device could be used in a different way and I'll climb on that for a stint. Or whether I'm climbing SRT or on a doubled line. But if we were to specifically focus on the use of a saddle-attached friction piece that is used to lower limbs from aloft, we could have that discussion, because that's what the thread is about.


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## Tree Machine (May 22, 2006)

[sez Ian]"Can you please expand on these idea's relating to your set up... ie how the connection for rigging is made to your front saddle and what specific tools are used ( figure 8, karabina using munter hitch, grillion or other lowering devices etc ). I see your preference is to use 11 mm rope for lowering."

Actually, I vascillate between 11 mm and the 13 mm bull rope. The 11 mm I use because it was retired from climbing, shortened a few too many times to be of much use climbing, but with eyes spliced on each end, it functions all over the place as an accessory rope or aerial lowering line. I won't donate any of the other 11 mm's to lowering work because they're all at work supporting my monky butt. So to say that I prefer 11 mm for lowering, well, the only reason I started using 11 mm for lowering is I happened to have a 20 meter length of Velocity that wasn't getting used for climbing. It was more by accident than preference, however, I now use it regularly because every time I pull the 1/2" bull rope up into the tree it feels like lugging a lead anchor. To lower a limb from 60 feet up, you only need about 65 feet of rope (assuming you have a ground man there to unclip). To use 120 feet of half inch is double overkill and a half since we are not talking about rigging big weights, just 2-3X your weight, at most.

Anyway, 11 mm is lighter, functions perfectly well for light limbs and you can utilize a host of devices because just about everything made is for 11 mm. This opens you up to a world of really cool and expensive pieces. I prefer things that are less expensive, simplified, and boiled down to the least common denominator. It's gotta be easy and swift to employ, light, affordable and available.

There, does that answer all your questions?


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## Tree Machine (May 22, 2006)

With all this talk about rigging, I don't want you to get the impression that I rig all the time. I live in a densly populated area with lots of wires and structures and obstacles beneath so I do light rigging very frequently, probably almost daily, but these are just tricks in the bag. I'm like most of you. I just cut it and drop it whenever possible.


I have some short video clips that my helper dude took of my doing some aerial rigging and lowering of some slective limb removals over top of a slate-roofed, copper guttered home. This is where I feel most alive.


Anyway, that footage just needs some time for editing, mebbe tonight, some real action, real time lowering from an impressive height way out over the house. Yummmm.

For now, here's a clip of my preferred way of getting material on the ground, that which will jive with most of you.


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## trevmcrev (May 23, 2006)

Blank movie player for me. Censored? or just my dumb computer?
Trev


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## Tree Machine (May 23, 2006)

Try going to the Quicktime website and clicking on the free download. The free Quicktime will let you view Quicktime videos on the web.

Try Click this: Quicktime for the PC.


Then here's a short clip of the tree we'll be rigging forearm diameter limbs from (way out) over the house.

Let's get you dialled in, though. I don't want to disinclude any of the 6 of you who really give a care about this stuff, or the 26 others reading it for the pure entertainment.


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## xtremetrees (May 23, 2006)

Hay! Nice lawn dart. Lol. I like how you fast cut it. Thats the tip and slip cut? Where you just underscopre and then top cut it fast?


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## woodchux (May 23, 2006)

"There have been many time where a lowered limb gets hung and you have to rappell down and either dice it in place, wrestle it, or somehow release it. A handled device wouldn't leave you any options but to deal with it while it does a static hang, then go back up to lower it back down. I prefer to be able to lower the limb from wherever I'm standing, or hanging, regardless of where the friction device is."

Ok than, all the device needs would be a remote control


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## Tree Machine (May 23, 2006)

Chux said:


> Ok than, all the device needs would be a remote control


or the device needs to be attached to the front of your saddle.


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## woodchux (May 24, 2006)

Personally , I'm not real crazy about the idea of rigging off of MY saddle. I try to stay out of the rigging as much as possible , and that just seems to attach me to it . I am always open to learning new tricks and techniques though.


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## Tree Machine (May 25, 2006)

Rigging to your saddle can be as easy as clipping a biner to your sliding D, spreader snap or front ring(s). The point to this is less of controlling friction off your saddle and more about controlling and knowing exactly where your rope is when those critical moments are upon you. The friction is created over a limb or crotch and the passing through a slinged biner, or two, and the very final remaining amount of mass is controlled by hand, giving you very direct and accurate control of the limb's descent.

Hand belaying you should think of as a friction system where depending on a single piece should mebbe be thought of as just using a friction device.

I find a great deal of advantage in setting slings and passing the rope through them. First, it is very fast. I tend to sink these redirects one-handed and place the rope through one-handed. This isn't to show off. Rarely is anyone actually watching. The point is it's so easy, you can do, and un-do a sling one-handed, so complexity shouldn't be an excuse here.


The attached pic is a simple rig I did yesterday, limb removal over top of a sensitive Hosta/ perennial bed. The major friction came from the rope over top of the limb, secondary friction from a slinged biner placed directly below, and a second redirect adding it's level of friction, but more importantly routing the rope to where the climber is, which is in the proper work position, tied in twice and ready with an escape route should something whacky go on.


The friction in this system was sufficient that I could have beleayed the limb pinching the standing end of the rope between my boot and the tree's trunk. This is where I like my friction, where you have to walk your fingers under the rope to pass it along, almost neutral force at the hand. Once the limb is cut, if you have just a wee bit more friction than you need, reach over with one hand and release a biner.

Some limbs are small enough they don't need accessory slings, just one point of friction (the limb) and your belay hand. This is how I do it most of the time, though the rope almost ALWAYS passes freely through a biner on my saddle unless the rope is hanging right there.

big P.S. If you're not wearing climbing gloves of some sort, I really don't recommend hand-belaying. Reasons should be obvious.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 25, 2006)

Nice. i like krabs for changing the angle of line run; to open up windows, keeping lines from rubbing, increasing or decreasing friction on tree parts etc. sometimes adjsut per load; by just un clipping a krab from line so line is allowed now rub tree more, for more friction for heavier load. Or clip/unclip krab as needed to have less of a bark friction trail, so hauling rigging line back up is very easy, then preset krab immediately changes that to high friction for lowering.

Bending a line perpendicular to it's loading leverages higher line tension. If used to raise tension, then grab more purchase past friction hold to tighten line is called sweating the line. This is how Brion Toss de-scribes how ancient sailors for months aboard a ship without radio, electricity etc. raised sails etc. when the bollard handle was broken or lost, or they all would perish.

i use it to pretighten lines on loads, to sweat more purchase out of the line, and raise the starting line tension greatly. This greatly influences rigging potential, impacts, direction and control. Lots of times using 2 support points and a sweating pull in between to pretighten. A krab and sling, or 2 end to end is a nice remote sweating handle. If trying for horizontal sweep or other higher tension trix, might place remote sweater onto saddle after pretighten, before cutting, but have sweater relaxed. Then lean back just when she starts to fold; to immediately raise line tension and keep limb high, and pulling in proper direction. Usually this is all with ground control on rig line, but sometimes have line locked off next to me upstairs. The spread points of support also allow you to more appropriately balance the equal and opposite reactions over the mainstem/ trunk for better stability. Instead of both parts of the equal and opposite pulling on 1 side to leverage force and angle against support, instead of balancing the pulls and angles for less loading.

Sometimes, i have a Round Turn on a single support, and a remote sweat krab after first turn, allowing high friction lowering, after pretightening greatly. This handle also facilitates removal of the Round Turn. i'll set overhead, without climbing up there if i can by throwing rig line with krab as weight and place krab on after 1st turn is set, right before pulling 2nd up(but already thrown in). If it is close; i'll pull rig sweat point down with remote sweat line, place lanyard over and anchor end. to another sling. Then, have a 2/1 remote sweat to tighten, loosen lanyard, pull lanyard out. My 19' lanyard with sling on end to anchor gives about 10' reach to line for 2/1 X leveraged bend pretightening.


This Line Angle leverage Calculator Dave Spenscer that designed that one way pulley helped me with years ago. You can adjust the loads and angles yourself to see the potentials, and useful ranges.

Older Archive-Bent Line Leverage Applications (need to start another one with the newer stuffs; make animations etc.)


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## Tree Machine (May 26, 2006)

Dude, your genius..... it just makes me weep.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 26, 2006)

i don't know about all that...

i've started a new thread on just the pretensioning aspect that can be used as climber or growundie lowering; as i think it is mucho importance to the formulae of support and direction control.


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## woodchux (May 26, 2006)

You guys really know your stuff !
Thanks for sharing


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## Tree Machine (May 27, 2006)

Spidey knows his stuff. There's many hundreds of really talented arborists here, as well as chainsaw dudes who just blow my mind in the chainsaw forum. The crowd that runs in the nursury forum are exceedingly good at what they do. Their sharing is what makes this site run.

We all have something in life we do really well. Lowering limbs over houses and perrenial flowerbeds, by myself, from up in the tree is really my special talent. Sad that my life has risen to that as there's a very limited use outside of tree work for that sorta skill. You guys are the only group on the planet who could possibly have an interest in this. To all 27 of you,


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## Tree Machine (May 27, 2006)

In the last few days I've had apprentice dude picking up the video camera and shooting some clips. This week has had three major league pin oaks with lots of technical-over-the-house material. I directed Nick to where and when the camera should be on what because it's exclusively for youz cats. He may be shakey because he's a noob camera man.

As far as how I learned this stuff, again it was more by accident. My first tree job 14 years ago the boss was opening a tree care division as part of his landscape company. I applied for the job and he believed my line of and hired me. I learned very quickly that I was the tree care division. Me, a flatbed pickup, a Husky 44 and a pole pruner. The following year a tornado whipped through a neighborhood just north of me and I was a new business owner.

Never had a boss. Never knew a fellow climber until years later. Didn't ever have anyone teach me anything in the early years. For very intermittant periods I would have ground help, but for the most part, just a solo arborist who enjoyed pushing to the outer limits. One of you described me as the lost bastard arbo child, raised by wolves and finally coming out of the woods.

I now work in a 2-3 man team setting, but the aerial skills haven't really changed at all. I learned of slings about ten years ago and have tried so many different things so many different ways I can't count. But it all distills down to the steady-Eddie, day-to-day ways that I primarily use now. Refined and simplified, tested thousands of times so we can dig the nitty gritty detail out of it. This is the stuff I'll be showing you video of.


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## xtremetrees (May 27, 2006)

What kinda video are you hosting?
Do you smoke trees like I do.
Walmart will be selling my videos soon.
I already own the domain extremetree.com. 
Ill shoow you soon how to lok like your falling asleep while pushing a 56 inch bar. lol

Your ittsy bittsy slings would frazzle at my bull bucking loads.

Tom Dunlap would you like to be co-producter of my loads..lol


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## rbtree (May 27, 2006)

whassup with dat, X? You sound like you've tipped and lit a few


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## xtremetrees (May 27, 2006)

RBtree be glad I'm not advertising in your neck of the woods aye 
Id help raise the prices of ale fer sure.


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## rbtree (May 27, 2006)

Do you roll the trees before you smoke 'em?:biggrinbounce2:


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## xtremetrees (May 27, 2006)

right up onto my trailer. I could roll a elephant onto it one chunk at a ttime:


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## Tree Machine (May 28, 2006)

How do you smoke an elephant?

One puff at a time.


Getting back on topic.... We're talking about generally hairy precarious situations where it's to your advantage to have the ground guy with both hands freed up. If he's not handling a rope, he's freed up to do important things like clean up and do ground duty. I don't have to bust his groove. He sees a limb coming down, he steps out of his track for a few seconds to grab a limb and unclip it and he's back to work and I'm rigging the other end of the rope. The more on the cleanup he is, the less I have to do when I get down.

I watch other treeguys. After a cut I see one guy handling the rope, one guy handling the limb and the treeguy watching them both, _waiting_ so he can pull his 1/2" line back up. Three guys taking three times as long as me and Jerry homeowner. Think about it. If all you have to do is unclip a non-locking stainless steel slideline biner, you don't have to be an Einstein _or_ a ground guy. A 6-year old can unclip a limb (with Dad's supervision, of course).


I appreciate Xtreme smokin his trees, but my reality is it is 100% climbing and the areas we work in are so densly populated and yards so tight, fences, porches, solariums, hot tubs, awnings, power, phone and cable lines. Driveways and paver walks. Perennial beds, ornamental trees, fountains and water effect ponds; Every arborist gets that stuff to a degree, but it's really excessive here. I can count the number of 12" + DBH trees I can drop and flop, _per year_, on my 10 fingers. Most all big takedowns need piecing out and although I thoroughly enjoy heavyweight rigging and an occasional crane job, that is just not the level of rigging we're talking about in this thread.

This is bread and butter, middle of the road arboriculture. The stuff being described here is more of pruning and deadwooding where 'going big' is not as important as with a takedown. This is day-to-day stuff; Pruning overly dense areas or overextended limbs, and select limb and dead limb removals over areas where you can't conveniently cut em and drop em. This is pretty much a staple in the work diet of all tree climbers.

I was able to go through the video clips that Apprentice Dude took this week of solo aerial rigging over a roof and will need some time to edit. They're a bit shakey.


The tree is a 30 meter doublet oak where the streetward half died. The other half is primarily over the house. The homeowner wants to save the tree.


Here's a video clip for Xtreme. This was that oak, the dead part. No itsy bitsy slings were made in the making of this video:


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## xtremetrees (May 28, 2006)

man that tree looked dead.. very nice vid.


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## woodchux (May 29, 2006)

Hey TM,
Are you still working with nick and PU climber?


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## xtremetrees (May 31, 2006)

*Thanks TM*

Bro, I had a large company call me saying they needed me for the day. I got to thinking I gotta be totally self-reliant. Aint gonna be no help on the ground.
I quoted him my daily rate and got to thinking shoot fire because of TM I dont need help from the ground.

Thanks man If youll PM me your address I'll send you some cash..!


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## Tree Machine (Jun 1, 2006)

*Glad this stuff is of practical use*

Something tells me you could have flashed that job without my help. No cash necessary, but I appreciate the thought


X said:


> man that tree looked dead..


Half the crown was dead. I have some clips of the rigging of the live parts over the house and perennial garden. Nick did a pretty OK job with the camera.


Here's that same tree, after dropping the dead stem I quickly shifted the chainsaw into reverse to impress the onlookers. This is how it came out:


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## Tree Machine (Jun 1, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Blank movie player for me.


Trev, are you able to view the quicktime videos? I'm about to feed the gang some more and wanna make sure you're in the loop.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 1, 2006)

That was funny your always a blast TM.


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## trevmcrev (Jun 2, 2006)

Arrgghh. Im getting the bottom toolbar type thing that shows the progress but no image. Sometime when i try a meesage comes up saying " some software is missing for quicktime". It used to work, and ive seen some of your other clips but not recent ones.
Annoying. I'm not too up to speed with configuring things right on this computer.

Trev.


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## trevmcrev (Jun 2, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Arrgghh. Im getting the bottom toolbar type thing that shows the progress but no image. Sometime when i try a meesage comes up saying " some software is missing for quicktime". It used to work, and ive seen some of your other clips but not recent ones.
> Annoying. I'm not too up to speed with configuring things right on this computer.
> 
> Trev.



Could email to me if you want. 
[email protected]


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## trevmcrev (Jun 2, 2006)

Tried again by saving then opening and it said some parts missing being used by other programs. clicked yes to change it then it still said the compressor is missing. ???????????????????????


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## Tree Machine (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, I wish I had something to offer you. I'm not real advanced in the computer world.


Here's one that Nick got on video. I drew a pic of how I rigged it. This was a fairly good size limb, pretty long, not quite as big around as my leg. I wanted it to come down, butt-end first. 

The rope was first draped over a limb above the one to be lowered, then chokered to the limb out beyond the halfway point, weight-wise. Normally, I would do the cut at this point, but as mentioned, this one was really long. A sling was set on the limb I was standing on, and a second sling on a limb just above me creating an 'M' profile with the rigging rope (which was an 11 mm dragonfly in this instance).

Seems like a bit of rigging, but the whole clip was under a minute. I boiled it down to around 38 seconds to keep the download time reasonable.

It is a 1:1 setup. The friction comes primarily from the draping over the limb, with additional friction through the caribiners of the two slings, and finally, my gloved hand.

This setup allowed for the limb tip to be lowered a bit, allowing the traditional face cut to close, then snap, nice and predictable. When she let loose there was the one second of chaos and mayhem as the but end swung down and the tips up, however, because of how the rig was set up the butt end swung down and away from the climber, the brush end came upward and it was all well away from me as the limb hung from the right side of the 'M' and i was positioned on the left side of the 'M'. It was lowered with full control and not a great deal of grip from the belay hand. Friction was distributed well.

Here's the crude drawing of the setup:


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## Tree Machine (Jun 3, 2006)

Here is the video clip:


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## xtremetrees (Jun 3, 2006)

nice video nice limbage floating down.
take and start a thread in the video section TM I'll match you :rockn:


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## Tree Machine (Jun 3, 2006)

Video takes a painstakingly long time for me, beginning-to-finish. I will politely decline a contest of any sort. Lets just share amongst ourselves.


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## 046 (Jun 3, 2006)

nice work! 

thanks again for sharing...


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## Tree Machine (Jun 4, 2006)

[i said:


> Newbus earlicus[/i]]I'm still seeking to know everything I can before I attempt to do it so I can be fully confident in doing the work. I basically have 3 trees to practice on that aren't near anything and then I want to take one out right next to my house that will definitely require some lowering. I'm basically going to be working by myself and when I read your profile and saw that's what you basically do. I later read some more of the threads and discovered that you really only lower when absolutely necessary.
> 
> When you do your cuts for dropping, do you use a felling cut or do you make a straight cut and then an angled cut from the back and push it off on the tires? How does one do a jump cut? I can't find info on different chainsaw cuts I might should try so any direction to websites or info you can offer is much appreciated. I still would like to know your rig and hear how you would go from beginning to end cutting down a tree, setting up ropes and all and using your lowering method. I still have more equipment to buy and I don't know exactly what I need so do get back to me when you can.
> 
> ...


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Excellent host of questions, but it's important to stay on task. We've got a good start on this topic so we'll stay focussed.

Earle Watson has a few really excellent questions in there, cutting right to the meat of the matter:


(Sqw)Earle said:


> Do you think it would be unwise to attach a safety line in an upside down 'V" setup to the metal rings that the leather strap that hugs the tree attaches to?


OK, so that was not one of the better questions. As a matter of fact, I don't have a clue what you're climbing on, but it scares the livin' bajeezers outta me.


Earle said:


> I basically have 3 trees to practice on that aren't near anything and then I want to take one out right next to my house that will definitely require some lowering. I'm basically going to be working by myself and when I read some more of the threads and discovered that you really only lower when absolutely necessary.


Absolutely. I use an array of specialized cuts to get the limbs to fell certain directions and most importantly, to release (snap off) exactly how you intend it to and the limb will go the way you want it to.

That is not unique to me. This is the way ALL tree guys do it in the trees. Rigging is only done when necessary. In fact, NOT rigging is really the norm in our industry. Then there's the use of slings, which isn't necessarily considered rigging, but the use of the slings aids you in directing the limb to where you want it to go.

Here's an example of that: A 135 degree upward face cut and a nick on the underside. The limb here was over primary lines and dropping the tips down was just not such a good option. Work-positioning is everything. Enjoy.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 5, 2006)

Whoops, that was a similar technique, but not the clip I meant for. No wires in that one.

This is some crazy Aussie climber, pretty advanced new school guy who I caught here in a rare moment where he was only tied in once, with his rope. He shoulda had his flipline sunk also so that he was tied in twice when making the cut.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 5, 2006)

The point being, that the slings are multi-tasking workhorses that can be used a lot of different ways up in a tree to give you advantage in leverage, friction, or work positioning. Slings are essential, and the right slings are even more essential, like for instance how long they are for your liking, and what caribiner (if any) is on the sling, and how is it affixed. Then there's the one sling you carry that has your life on it, one that doesn't get used for rigging or anything other than being your terminal redirect. This one is extra long and has a triple lock biner on it.

I feel naked in a tree if I don't have three or 4 slings on me.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 5, 2006)

WORD:

Abso-freakin'lutely!


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## Tree Machine (Jun 5, 2006)

Yes, and on the ground you have other slings, like rated endless slings, whoopie slings, tow straps, wire rope slings. Things to make lifting or manipulating a load to your advantage.


One of my favorite reference books is a freebie by American Wire Rope and Sling titled _RIGGERS HANDBOOK_. This is more for the rigging industry and is quite technical in nature, though nothing specific to trees. Just rigging from the industrial standpoint, in its purity.

For rigging tree parts, man, the world's reference on that would be Spidey's site. Whadda ya say to THAT, Mr. Freakin-lutely?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks guys; to me it seems like it has out groan it's indexing; yet hopefully still in it's infancy; with all the stuff i can still steal from y'all!opcorn: 

As we go to our reach the start of our 3rd year with the pro-ject; hopefully will see more articles, links and animations at MTL


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## xtremetrees (Jun 6, 2006)

I try to imagine in 10 years what we will have all accumliated. More knowledge about trees, rigging, etc. and it will not stop we will continue to learn and teach.

I will be taking pics of a future job this week. A bad leaner and some small pines. A few of the tree I cant hardly ID and wont to start a thread on thier ID and then get some response and then print it out for the customer. 

Id like to have 20 replies for the customer to read about their trees.
Imm gonna try it and see how it works. I think 20 treefolks talking about and viewing my clients trees will be very helpful to both the client and the C.A.
Anyway, I know you folks feel very blessed to have a job that you enjoy and can never learn it all. You folks been posting here so long that it proves to me you learn a little something and then apply it in the field.
This is the greatest tree site .......

I've been doing more work with the Black Widow. Its some small line I ran it thru a fig. 8 and hardly got any friction at all with it. How can it be so strong yet so smalll, its the mighty mouse of rigging lines. I like it but it fits only limited application in the field.
I may shorten it from 180 feet down to 100 and use it static line with loop runners as described in this thread but i'll have to use two friction devices with it.8 on the tree and Munter on my saddle? Whatcha think?


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## xtremetrees (Jun 17, 2006)

Here are the pics at the end of a day with no chipper.

The bad leader with corrupted root ball spung back 8 feet when I cut the larger of the two tops.

We thought the backyard was bad but heres the fron pine all wearing against a service drop. The electrical wire was exposed quite bad as the weatherprooffing had been rubbed off from the wind. I slung out/redirected three branches with 5 biners. I let alot of tree hang and then work it as if out a bucket.. Heres whats Left.


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