# Stihl 044 10mm vs 12mm



## 272super (Oct 2, 2013)

Ok, I know it been covered before but I want to clarify something about the difference between the two 044 versions. I know the 10mm is supposed to be the better runner but wasn't it supposed to be rated at 5.1 hp compared to the later 5.4 rating? Did the HP rating coincide with the change to the 12mm? I have a 044 12mm saw that runs fine but I have a good cylinder off a 10mm and would like to know if it's worth swapping it on the 12mm case. I don't get the HP numbers since the earlier models were supposed to be the BETTER runners. Do the numbers lie in this case? Thanks


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## gilfish (Oct 2, 2013)

I reckon that guy in your avatar is Roy Buchanan went and seen him at the piggery in Byron Bay aust. was the late eighties, a good time was had by all. Sorry this has diddly squat to do with your original post.


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## wyk (Oct 2, 2013)

272super said:


> Ok, I know it been covered before but I want to clarify something about the difference between the two 044 versions. I know the 10mm is supposed to be the better runner but wasn't it supposed to be rated at 5.1 hp compared to the later 5.4 rating? Did the HP rating coincide with the change to the 12mm? I have a 044 12mm saw that runs fine but I have a good cylinder off a 10mm and would like to know if it's worth swapping it on the 12mm case. I don't get the HP numbers since the earlier models were supposed to be the BETTER runners. Do the numbers lie in this case? Thanks



The difference overall is probably little to nothing in the scheme of things unless you like to collect saws. Put the dual port muff on and go cutting.


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## nstueve (Oct 2, 2013)

The biggest difference is the port timing and combustion chamber size. Don't ever be fooled by manufactures HP ratings; some have been severely shorted and others exaggerated... 

I'm not sure what's needed for backward swapping but most guys with 12mm 044's jump forward to a good 046 cylinder. The 10-12mm has to do with the wrist pin holding the piston on, so I don't know if a 12mm piston will fit inside a 10mm jug and have the port timing still lay out optimally. If you want the best bang for your buck sell the 10mm jug on eBay or here and put that cash towards porting your 12mm top end or porting a 046 top end.

Either way the gains may or may not outweigh the cost of getting there depending on your outlook on saw performance.


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## watsonr (Oct 2, 2013)

You can bolt the 10mm jug on a 12mm saw and use the 12mm piston without doing anything else. Different timing and combustion chamber as mentioned above just seemed to make more power and compression is higher in that era saw. I know an old timber feller that swears by the 10mm jug 044... I tried to buy the saw, it had 185psi in stock form, he was to old to even start the saw, his boy would start it and then hand it over for him to use. It even sounded different to me than the 12mm 044 that I have.


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## mdavlee (Oct 2, 2013)

The 10mm are a noticeable difference over the 12 mm saws. The one I had cut right with a stock 460 with a 24" bar buried in oak.


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## nstueve (Oct 2, 2013)

watsonr said:


> You can bolt the 10mm jug on a 12mm saw and use the 12mm piston without doing anything else. Different timing and combustion chamber as mentioned above just seemed to make more power and compression is higher in that era saw. I know an old timber feller that swears by the 10mm jug 044... I tried to buy the saw, it had 185psi in stock form, he was to old to even start the saw, his boy would start it and then hand it over for him to use. It even sounded different to me than the 12mm 044 that I have.



Good to know!


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## 272super (Oct 3, 2013)

watsonr said:


> You can bolt the 10mm jug on a 12mm saw and use the 12mm piston without doing anything else. Different timing and combustion chamber as mentioned above just seemed to make more power and compression is higher in that era saw. I know an old timber feller that swears by the 10mm jug 044... I tried to buy the saw, it had 185psi in stock form, he was to old to even start the saw, his boy would start it and then hand it over for him to use. It even sounded different to me than the 12mm 044 that I have.



Can the 12mm jug be used on the 10mm case? Seems like I've read it's a no go but I don't remember why.


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## sawfun9 (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes they sound different and cut noticebly different. I have an early 12mm that cuts and sounds like a 10mm.


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## splitpost (Oct 3, 2013)

272super said:


> Can the 12mm jug be used on the 10mm case? Seems like I've read it's a no go but I don't remember why.



The ring-end locations are different ,if you run a 12mm jug with a 10mm piston it will hang the ring-end in a port,

I think I read somewhere that the meteor 10mm pistons now have the same ring locations as the 12mm pistons..................


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 3, 2013)

to get the angry 10mm exhaust sound out of your 12mm 440 when put the 10mm jug on it ,run the early flywheel also ,it is heavier ,i added it to my 440 i put a 10mm jug on ,and my hybrid ,the heavier early flywheel helps pulling a long bar


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## fearofpavement (Oct 3, 2013)

Without disassembly, is there a way to tell the difference? ie, I have an 044, how do I know if it is a 10 or 12 mm wrist pin? Serial number break, etc?


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## splitpost (Oct 4, 2013)

fearofpavement said:


> Without disassembly, is there a way to tell the difference? ie, I have an 044, how do I know if it is a 10 or 12 mm wrist pin? Serial number break, etc?



Serial number,but since im at the coast kickin back i cant tell you the change over number.........sorry


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## kr5258 (Oct 4, 2013)

12mm crank started with serial number X 29 382 283


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## nmurph (Oct 4, 2013)

fearofpavement said:


> Without disassembly, is there a way to tell the difference? ie, I have an 044, how do I know if it is a 10 or 12 mm wrist pin? Serial number break, etc?



The top fins are at a 45° on the 10mm.


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## SawTroll (Oct 4, 2013)

The impression I have is that the 10 to 12 mm swap happened some years earlier than the hp (and weight?) "jump" in the specs (and addition of the "magnum" sticker).


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## splitpost (Oct 5, 2013)

The angled fin cylinders were also fitted to the first of the 12mm saws

The serial number is the best bet unless you pull it down and measure the rod end


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## wcorey (Oct 5, 2013)

I just recently heard/read (can't recall where) that the bump in the hp spec happened in 2000...


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## blsnelling (Oct 5, 2013)

Who would want a lousey old 044 anyway?


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## SawTroll (Oct 5, 2013)

wcorey said:


> I just recently heard/read (can't recall where) that the bump in the hp spec happened in 2000...



Fits quite well with my memory!


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## Woody33 (Oct 6, 2013)

kr5258 said:


> 12mm crank started with serial number X 29 382 283



Ok, so I recently bought an 044 with serial number 123999352 and I just want to double check that its the 10mm model. Would this be PRE serial X 29 382 283 making it a 10mm wrist pin? The cooling fins are also at a horizontal angle however I hear that both early and late model 044's were produced with this characteristic. thanks.


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## 272super (Oct 6, 2013)

Woody33 said:


> Ok, so I recently bought an 044 with serial number 123999352 and I just want to double check that its the 10mm model. Would this be PRE serial X 29 382 283 making it a 10mm wrist pin? The cooling fins are also at a horizontal angle however I hear that both early and late model 044's were produced with this characteristic. thanks.



Yes you have a 10mm.


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## Woody33 (Oct 7, 2013)

Awesome :msp_biggrin:, thanks for confirming!


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## Brushwacker (Oct 7, 2013)

Isn't the 10 mm jug a different part # then the 12 mm or did I miss that here when reading through ?


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## SawTroll (Oct 7, 2013)

Brushwacker said:


> Isn't the 10 mm jug a different part # then the 12 mm or did I miss that here when reading through ?



Could be, but the wrist pin diameter is about the piston and the top end of the con rod mainly, and the small end bearing - not necessarily about the jug, unless the change interferes with the porting.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 8, 2013)

SawTroll said:


> Could be, but the wrist pin diameter is about the piston and the top end of the con rod mainly, and the small end bearing - not necessarily about the jug, unless the change interferes with the porting.



the pins for the rings on the 12mm jugs are in different spots than the 10mm piston ,i am wondering if there is 2 different cylinders with angled fins ,10mm angled and 12mm angled or if they share the same one ?,i know the rings will hang up if put a ms440 cyl on a 10mm piston ,but i do have a saw with a 12mm piston the 10mm jug works fine on so the early 12mm saws may have the same port timing as the 10mm ones ? has anyone researched this ?i have also found a large part of why the early saws ran so good is the heavier flywheel they have ,with a 32 inch bar it makes a noticeable difference in tourque


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## bryanr2 (Oct 8, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Who would want a lousey old 044 anyway?



Your 044 is the model/ standard that I am going to shoot for on my 44 project. Saw is beautiful.


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## blsnelling (Oct 8, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> Your 044 is the model/ standard that I am going to shoot for on my 44 project. Saw is beautiful.



Thanks. I built it from scratch, starting with NOS cases. The orange covers are the earliest style for the HD filter, thanks to TRX250R. The tank was used, but in like new condition, thanks to Wiggs. The recoil, clutch cover, and loop handle are new. The saw is all OEM, with the exception of a Meteor piston. It's a 12mm saw, but is wearing a nice 10mm cylinder and flywheel.


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## splitpost (Oct 8, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Thanks. I built it from scratch, starting with NOS cases. The orange covers are the earliest style for the HD filter, thanks to TRX250R. The tank was used, but in like new condition, thanks to Wiggs. The recoil, clutch cover, and loop handle are new. The saw is all OEM, with the exception of a Meteor piston. It's a 12mm saw, but is wearing a nice 10mm cylinder and flywheel.



So is there 2 types of flywheel for the 044
And then the 440 one later on?


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 9, 2013)

splitpost said:


> So is there 2 types of flywheel for the 044
> And then the 440 one later on?



the early 044 was a little heavier ,helps with a longer bar for tourque ,i have converted 2 of my saws to the early flywheel now ,my 3rd one came with one the 10mm saw i have


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## longunner (Oct 10, 2013)

*Early 044*

Doesn't the early 044 also have the red kill lever as well. I have a couple of those.


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## fearofpavement (Nov 24, 2013)

Rats, it was so long since I asked this question that I forgot about it. Had the cylinder off yesterday but have the saw all assembled now and forgot to measure the piston pin diameter. Oh well, I'll compare the serial number I guess. Still don't have the saw running. Cleaned and rebuilt the carb, checked the impulse and fuel hose, intake boot, etc. Now the saw isn't turning over properly so I have to get a set of the plastic pawls which are worn. Hope to add it to my line-up soon.


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## bryanr2 (Dec 25, 2013)

Just to bump. I bought a really nice good running 12mm 044 for Wiggs. Nothing wrong with the saw- but I want to prepare for the "optimal" future. Would I be better off buying a 10mm jug or finding a 046D jug? What's going to make the stronger saw?


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## angelo c (Dec 25, 2013)

Can someone run SN # 122039875
Has angled fins as well.

Thx


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## splitpost (Dec 25, 2013)

angelo c said:


> Can someone run SN # 122039875
> Has angled fins as well.
> 
> Thx


That would be a 10mm saw

Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2


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## blsnelling (Dec 25, 2013)

angelo c said:


> Can someone run SN # 122039875
> Has angled fins as well.
> 
> Thx






Invalid Serial Number. Please enter correct serial number. [_122039875_]


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## splitpost (Dec 25, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Invalid Serial Number. Please enter correct serial number. [_122039875_]


Why is it invalid?

Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2


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## mdavlee (Dec 25, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> Just to bump. I bought a really nice good running 12mm 044 for Wiggs. Nothing wrong with the saw- but I want to prepare for the "optimal" future. Would I be better off buying a 10mm jug or finding a 046D jug? What's going to make the stronger saw?



46 cylinder will make more power overall. I like a 10mm saw running a 28" lightweight bar with a 3/4 wrap handle.


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## angelo c (Dec 25, 2013)

splitpost said:


> Why is it invalid?
> 
> Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2



Thanks guys.


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## nmurph (Dec 25, 2013)

So, what are 10mm jugs worth??


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## angelo c (Dec 25, 2013)

So if your mommy gave you some christmas money and you had a prepaid package already waiting to visit a crazy gun toting chimp and you had a 440 and a 044(10mm) ....which one would you send off ?


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## mdavlee (Dec 25, 2013)

angelo c said:


> So if your mommy gave you some christmas money and you had a prepaid package already waiting to visit a crazy gun toting chimp and you had a 440 and a 044(10mm) ....which one would you send off ?



440 for sure the 10mm saw will run better to start with don't need much more than a generous muffler mod to be a real nice running saw.


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## fin460 (Dec 25, 2013)

I'm green on about everything, but especially 044/440's, I have been trying to follow recent threads on these, but I would like to add a question to this thread.

hypothetically, on a 2010 or newer ms440, what is the best OEM route for the most power on that case? Will a ms460 cylinder fit it with no modifications? Is there a better idea, ported in the end of course.


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## mdavlee (Dec 25, 2013)

The 460 cylinder will fit with minor slotting on the bolt holes.


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## fin460 (Dec 25, 2013)

Okay thanks


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## bryanr2 (Dec 25, 2013)

whats the most popular route to take with these 12mm saws? 10mm or 46D? Im sure Randy will build me a mean one either way- just looking for exp from 44 users.


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## splitpost (Dec 26, 2013)

bryanr2 said:


> whats the most popular route to take with these 12mm saws? 10mm or 46D? Im sure Randy will build me a mean one either way- just looking for exp from 44 users.


I purchased mine as a wreck and went through it,it was all oem 12mm bottom end and came stock with the angled fin cylinder it is one of the first 12mm saws,i put the 044bb kit in and used it for awhile but its a better saw with the oem cylinder and a port job,if i could find a good 046D cylinder it would be on my bench getting worked on

sent from my Modded MS880 running a 17"bar and 12tooth rim


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## Derrick Sawyer (Jan 2, 2014)

Good info guys, I just broke down two 044s that i bought as parts saws, here are the pics of the cylinders, one on left is off serial number 125697945, had an 044C plastic top but someone disconnected the auto choke. Green sticker on chain brake says 1985 if that's worth anything, it is a 10mm pin and a Mahle piston, but cylinder looks newer with decomp valve and made by Gilardoni. Cylinder on right is from serial 130029033, chain brake sticker says 1993, looks original, probably early 12mm with angled cylinder no decomp valve, Mahle piston and cylinder. The Gilardoni cylinder looks to have a smaller combustion chamber. Don't have any experience with measuring ports. The stop pin locations on the pistons don't look different. Is there a 10mm piston that will work with the Gilardoni (if it cleans up)? Still have to find out cause of demise as well. (No, I did not mix up the sets by accident!) 

)


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## mdavlee (Jan 2, 2014)

I think right before they quit selling the 440 here they were using those cylinders on it. Probably been replaced sometime since 2007 or 2008.


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## ncsawguy (Jan 2, 2014)

well Im proud of mine that mastermind did. 0440. half 044 half 440. almost new everything with 10 mm jug.i found new oem crankcase for 044 with crankshaft.. almost too much to mention. but im am really happy with it.


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## MuskokaSplitter (May 17, 2014)

spent the last few months getting parts for my 440. Im doing a rebuld on it. There was a huge chunk takin out of the cylinder when i got it. Kind of a bummer but oh well. metal pieces everywhere and case damage. I figure it was because the piston was installed backwards and a ring end nicked the cylinder. Mine wont be a "looker" but im hoping ill like the 440/044 series as much as i do the 038s


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## tspeedle (Jun 28, 2017)

Sorry to bring this back up, but I need to confirm that it is possible to bolt a 12mm 046 BB-piston on a 10mm jug 044? I understand that you can't run a 12mm jug with a 10mm piston, but what about the other way round (10mm jug w/ 12mm piston)? Should work, shouldn’t it?


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## Laslabjohn (Jun 28, 2017)

you can bolt a 10mm 044 jug on a 12mm saw, but you cant bolt a 046 jug on a 10mm saw wrist pins are diff. now you can bolt a 046 on a 12mm saw with a little attention the the bolt pattern.


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## tspeedle (Jun 28, 2017)

thx for the reply. 

so what are you saying here, I need a 12mm crankshaft on my 044 to put a 046 cylinder on?


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## hseII (Jun 28, 2017)

tspeedle said:


> thx for the reply.
> 
> so what are you saying here, I need a 12mm crankshaft on my 044 to put a 046 cylinder on?



Yes


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## tspeedle (Jun 29, 2017)

bummer, but ok, a new crankshaft it is then


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## blsnelling (Jun 29, 2017)

tspeedle said:


> bummer, but ok, a new crankshaft it is then


That's not a drop in replacement. The cases are different.


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## tspeedle (Jul 2, 2017)

Ok, so I will need a whole new saw the 
I found this one online, can someone on here run the numbers? It should be a 12mm saw. Also can you tell the year from the sn?


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## lone wolf (Dec 8, 2019)

mdavlee said:


> The 460 cylinder will fit with minor slotting on the bolt holes.


Is that method OK or will it throw off alignment or anything?


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## wcorey (Dec 8, 2019)

lone wolf said:


> Is that method OK or will it throw off alignment or anything?



You'd really have to make a specific effort to screw it up enough to adversely effect alignment of anything...
IIRC depending on the build there can be minor clearance issues to watch for with the base or transfer tunnels on the case and/or flywheel.


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