# Osha rules on bucket riding.



## beowulf343 (Mar 14, 2008)

I know there has been a rash of stupid questions lately but this one is serious. I'm strictly a climber. However, a few times a month, one of the bucket crews get a job too tall and needs me to go up and cut it down to their size. Now for the past decade, i'll just sit on the lip of the bucket with my feet hanging on the outside, run a flipline through the tie in on the boom, and just reach over and run the controls. Snug the basket up to the tree, run another flip around the tree, set my spikes, unhook from the bucket, and start climbing. Alot easier than getting your feet out of the basket and onto the tree. Working with a new bucket guy today who threw a fit. So thought i'd ask around and see if there are any problems with my method. 

Does osha have any standards on climbing out of a bucket? Thanks.


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## clearance (Mar 14, 2008)

I just climb out of the bucket into the tree, its pretty scary the first time. It is not allowed here because you are to wear a fall arrest harness in the bucket, not a climbing belt. Oh well, sure beats climbing around. I cut a big X in the tree right before I get out, that way I know where to stop and get the bucket sent back up to me. Your way is ok, I guess, you couldn't fall far, but you could contact the conductors in some cases.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 14, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> I know there has been a rash of stupid questions lately but this one is serious. I'm strictly a climber. However, a few times a month, one of the bucket crews get a job too tall and needs me to go up and cut it down to their size. Now for the past decade, i'll just sit on the lip of the bucket with my feet hanging on the outside, run a flipline through the tie in on the boom, and just reach over and run the controls. Snug the basket up to the tree, run another flip around the tree, set my spikes, unhook from the bucket, and start climbing. Alot easier than getting your feet out of the basket and onto the tree. Working with a new bucket guy today who threw a fit. So thought i'd ask around and see if there are any problems with my method.
> 
> Does osha have any standards on climbing out of a bucket? Thanks.


They told us no in a osha meeting and I stood up and spoke 
and told them how I performed it, and he said it seemed safe
to him but no rule on it! The only thing he did not like is instead
of the full body harness, I was in my saddle. The way I do it is;
get to full bucket height set my climb rope with a silky or pruner
with a marvin head and tie in! Then I undo the lanyard and body 
body thrust on up and have ground man move basket either out
of the way or down! I am not sure if that is ok with them but have 
done it so long and know it is safe!



Also; I have thought of getting the full body saddle harness
combo then no rule could be broken.


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## masterarbor (Mar 14, 2008)

i've done variations of all the above and as long as you are tied in at all times, it's no less safe than anything else. i know it's rouge and not approved. but neither is standing on the lip of the bucket-:smoking: but if i could just get a little bit higher...


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## Mikecutstrees (Mar 15, 2008)

when I worked for a company with a bucket we always stayed inside the bucket then installed a climbing line. I think I would have gotten reamed if I had sat on the lip of the bucket. weather or not it is safe it looks very unsafe and unproffesional in my opinion. Nothing personal beowolf it just looks unproffesional to me. Why not ride up in the bucket then clip in and get out. Maybe if you have trouble getting out (I'm 6'2") you could put something in the bottom of the bucket to help you get out, like a step?


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## treemandan (Mar 15, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I've been doing the same thing for 20 years. It's not always because the tree is too tall.....sometimes it's because it's because the back side of the tree is hard to get to with the bucket through the tree....and it's just easier to jump out and rope climb.
> 
> The only thing that would worry me about sitting on the lip of the bucket is I believe it probably puts more stress on the bucket leveling system. I've never had a problem climbing out of the bucket.



I would not think twice about jumping out, as long as I was tied in. Do it all the time of course. No more dangerous than using the truck to pull you up with a rope, as long as you know how.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 15, 2008)

I've seen enough reports on climbers getting pulled into a crotch to not trust anyone to pull me with a truck.

I got this from the US DoL website to a question on using a lift rails as scaffold platform.



> Aerial lifts
> 
> The answer is no for aerial lifts. Section 1926.453(b)(2)(iv) states that "employees shall always stand firmly on the floor of the basket, and shall not sit or climb on the edge of the basket or use planks, ladders, or other devices for a work position."



I wonder if that foot of sawdust would get some of you in trouble. 

Even if there was not this paragraph, I would not allow it on any crew I ran. It is not worth the elevated risk of falling, even if properly restrained.

As for the full body climbing saddle, I love my Buck'Master with suspenders. I climb with a lmedium saw on a regular basis, and it keeps the saddle from riding low on my hips.


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## lxt (Mar 15, 2008)

That foot of sawdust can also weigh alot, safety gut from Davey put what was considered "normal" chips from a bucket on a scale during, winter & wet periods those chips can weigh upto 100lbs plus the weight of the man & tools....overload!!


Used many methods of going from bucket to tree.....as long as you are tied in to something!!! commonsense must be used, theres a whole other topic.


LXT..............


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## RedlineIt (Mar 15, 2008)

At last years Victoria Climbers Jamboree, (a warm-up for the PNW ITCC) the "work climb" tree was a sprawling Bigleaf Maple and every single competitor was installed at the top of the climb by riding up in a brand new Bartlett Tree bucket truck, operated via the tower controls by none other than Davey Tree's District Safety Manager.

They had a tech-in-the-tree tied in just above the insertion point to check that the climber was safely tied in using the cambium/friction saver, then the climber unhooked their lanyard from the bucket and got their feet on the tree, down went the bucket to take another tech up in a nearby tree to reset the "aerial rescue station" dummy. Repeat for thirty odd competitors.

Aside from a few shivers and flop-sweat moments from people who had never done this before, nobody had a physical difficulty getting from bucket to tree.

I have climbed from bucket to tree both with spurs and spurless on numerous occasions. (Side note: There is an old growth Douglas Fir on longstanding church property in Duncan B.C. that makes a bucket truck at full reach look like a toy. Got out on spurs, still had to advance my lanyard spirally for 20' until I got to some branches, got tied in, lowered my spurs. Aside from the relief of some deadwood, tree never knew I was there. Great fun.)

Based on these experiences, I ask beowulf: What do you find so difficult about using the bucket the way it was designed, then getting out?

OSHA aside, why ride the lip?


RedlineIt


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 15, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> What do you find so difficult about using the bucket the way it was designed, then getting out?



I call it my $100K elevator.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 15, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> Based on these experiences, I ask beowulf: What do you find so difficult about using the bucket the way it was designed, then getting out?
> 
> OSHA aside, why ride the lip?



This is going to sound stupid, but i actually have a hard time getting up out of the bucket. Whether i'm not coordinated enough or am too tall or what, i don't know. The only time i've ever drew blood with my spikes was while trying to get my legs out of the bucket. So i guess i need to know what the technique is for getting up and out of the bucket. I know several guys who just put their hands on the lip and lift themselves out with their arms but my shoulders are far enough from the lip that i can only get about six inches of lift.


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## jomoco (Mar 15, 2008)

Buckets can be pretty helpful in unusual application methods such as tying them to skinny little fan palms that are 80-90 feet tall, to keep them from flopping about in the wind as you're trimming the top.

One of the scariest things I've ever done in this business is running up an 80 foot fan palm (Washingtonia robusta) thats leaning towards high power lines with no bucket.

To run up that tree with just spikes, saddle, lanyard and knives as it bends over, way off center under your weight and the wind acting on it takes alot of nerve and confidence. I've seen more climbers hair out on these than any other tree. These are usually city trees with unusual bends in them that have been spiked 30-40 times over their lives, and this is very evident to the climber on the way up it, the damage done to the trunk by the gaffs is substantial considering the trunk diameter of 10-12 inches goes as much as 10-15 feet off center as it sways being trimmed 80-90 feet up, it's a very scary thing for any climber, especially green rookies who don't know just how tough and flexible these palms are. There's a very good reason that these and other palms are the only thing left standing after a hurricane knocks down houses in the tropically vulnerable areas of the world.

But even knowing how tough and flexible these tall palms are, it still takes alot of guts to run up and trim them as they bend over so precariously in the breeze. I know it bothers me to the point that if there's a bucket truck handy, I'll set it up at full extension straight up in the air and against the tree. Then I'll tie the trunk of the palm to the end of the upper boom with biners and nylon loops, then I'll climb out of the bucket and trim the head of the leaning palm 30 feet above me. I've broken the rules in this regard my whole career, I know of other So Cal palm cutters guilty of putting the value of their actual lives above the rules and regulations to get home to their family at the end of the work day.

I'm sure that these palms have failed in storms many times in the past, but I've never heard of one failing and falling under the weight of a climber trimming it in my whole career. 

Have any of you veteran tall fan palm climbers ever heard tale of one failing and hurting or killing a climber?

Ironically, these are the same palms that really have killed over a dozen So Cal climbers trying to trim them with full skirts or bags of fronds, in each case the climber was trimming from the bottom up and was under the bag trimming when the whole bag loses it's attachment to the trunk, falls on top of the climber trapping and eventually suffocating him to death.

Perhaps it's my knowing this that somehow triggers my unconscious brain to over-ride my conscious work brain to equate tall mature fan palms with the death of climbers, which in turn scares me enough to break the rules and abuse other peoples bucket trucks in the subliminal instinct drive to value my life so tenaciously.

So yeah, I climb out of buckets, just don't tell on me for tying off both the tree and by extension me, before I go even higher to get the job done and go home. Confessions of an outlaw bucket abuser in hiding.

All right coppers, start tearing me to shreds,..... see.... (Jimmy Cagney) Top O the World Ma!

jomoco


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## tree MDS (Mar 15, 2008)

I set my line up higher with some poles and then advance slowly with my line until I can get a foot on the rim without spiking myself, as with the spikes on in a single bucket it is awkward cuz ya cant bend yer leg to get it up on the lip, thats why I need to acend on my rope some. Hope this helps.


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## masterarbor (Mar 15, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> This is going to sound stupid, but i actually have a hard time getting up out of the bucket. Whether i'm not coordinated enough or am too tall or what, i don't know. The only time i've ever drew blood with my spikes was while trying to get my legs out of the bucket. So i guess i need to know what the technique is for getting up and out of the bucket. I know several guys who just put their hands on the lip and lift themselves out with their arms but my shoulders are far enough from the lip that i can only get about six inches of lift.



once you're tied in just have the guy on the ground lower the bucket and viola!, you're outta the bucket. it's easier than climbing out.


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## treemandan (Mar 15, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I've seen enough reports on climbers getting pulled into a crotch to not trust anyone to pull me with a truck.
> 
> I got this from the US DoL website to a question on using a lift rails as scaffold platform.
> 
> ...



I have seen tons of reports of crane accidents but here we go, again. Means nothing. Know what you are doing? You will be ok.


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## RedlineIt (Mar 15, 2008)

> So i guess i need to know what the technique is for getting up and out of the bucket.



No worries.

Get tied to the tree and double check.

Jump your buttocks, your bum, your counter weight onto the back lip of the bucket. Legs up now and forward, stick and climb! At least that's how I do it.

At the Jamboree, I saw dozens of ways, some silly, some slick.

It is not difficult.


RedlineIt


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## tree MDS (Mar 15, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I have seen tons of reports of crane accidents but here we go, again. Means nothing. Know what you are doing? You will be ok.



What happens if there is a defect in the tree below where you are tied and you cant see it and you go stressing that tree out with a truck pull ? You with part of tree ontop of you, you on ground ? At least if you are gonna do this moronic, lazy practice put a pulley on the base of the tree and then tie to the truck in order to offset un-natural forces placed on the tree.


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## tree MDS (Mar 15, 2008)

Better yet, what if the rope somehow gets stuck or burned into a crotch suddenly and yer boy in the truck is like ?? more peddal climber not moving, too much stress, top snaps, you fall, top lands on you. I suppose those are things they consider when saying its a no no.


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## treemandan (Mar 15, 2008)

clearance said:


> I just climb out of the bucket into the tree, its pretty scary the first time. It is not allowed here because you are to wear a fall arrest harness in the bucket, not a climbing belt. Oh well, sure beats climbing around. I cut a big X in the tree right before I get out, that way I know where to stop and get the bucket sent back up to me. Your way is ok, I guess, you couldn't fall far, but you could contact the conductors in some cases.



Just to get back on topic: first I thought bucket riding was when the driver drove the truck with you in the bucket. 
What I want to talk about is the fall arrest harness that is supposed to be used. Doesn't it clip on to your back? So if you fall out you are dangling pretty much helplessly. How about yo yo-ing into wires, is that possible? 
How about just use a climbing harness and tie in to the floor of the bucket. Think you could fall out then? Of course the bucket would have to be designed for that. If I would be working around wires I would not want to EVER come out of that thing, ever! 
How about a turret cover to encapsulate the operater minimising contact with conductors? Like a sheid with an opening to reach out of and it spins with the operater. Or even being totally encapsulated( with heat and a/c) and having robot arms do the reaching?
I don't see what is wrong with climbing out of a bucket if its done right.


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## treemandan (Mar 15, 2008)

tree MDS said:


> "Spotter", just get up the tree you #####-ya need a truck u ..... Goodnight.



Yeah, its time you put the bottle down and get some sleep, kiddo. You are drunk, inchoherant and ignorant.
By the way, Dan, I am getting better?


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## juststumps (Mar 16, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> I know there has been a rash of stupid questions lately but this one is serious. I'm strictly a climber. However, a few times a month, one of the bucket crews get a job too tall and needs me to go up and cut it down to their size. Now for the past decade, i'll just sit on the lip of the bucket with my feet hanging on the outside, run a flipline through the tie in on the boom, and just reach over and run the controls. Snug the basket up to the tree, run another flip around the tree, set my spikes, unhook from the bucket, and start climbing. Alot easier than getting your feet out of the basket and onto the tree. Working with a new bucket guy today who threw a fit. So thought i'd ask around and see if there are any problems with my method.
> 
> Does osha have any standards on climbing out of a bucket? Thanks.



sitting on the edge,, is probably ,,not the best thing to do... if you slip,, tied in,,,you'll more than likely be face first into the boom hard !!!! then you have a problem....


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## juststumps (Mar 16, 2008)

beowulf343 said:


> This is going to sound stupid, but i actually have a hard time getting up out of the bucket. Whether i'm not coordinated enough or am too tall or what, i don't know. The only time i've ever drew blood with my spikes was while trying to get my legs out of the bucket. So i guess i need to know what the technique is for getting up and out of the bucket. I know several guys who just put their hands on the lip and lift themselves out with their arms but my shoulders are far enough from the lip that i can only get about six inches of lift.



bring a milk crate up with you,, stand on that ..after you get to where your going ...


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## juststumps (Mar 16, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> once you're tied in just have the guy on the ground lower the bucket and viola!, you're outta the bucket. it's easier than climbing out.



your kidding ??? right ??? sometimes i'll set a guy in a tree... he flys the thing up,,, gets out,,, clears his line.... 

i would never drop the bucket out from one of my guys,,, unless he was totally in the clear !!!!

half the time the boom is laced in the tree,, you need hand signals to get it out ...

same thing goes for riding the lip of the bucket,,, if you ever did fall,, and can't get back into the bucket ,,, do you really want someone dragging you thru a tree while hanging off the end of the boom ????? sorta like "TREE PINATA" JMHO


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## lxt (Mar 16, 2008)

Beowulf, I have had problems like you mentioned, spikes on while standing in the bucket, what I have done is leave one leg out over the basket rim, resting the underside of my knee on the rim, that way when Im set & ready to bail I can stand on the bucket step or Atlas have one leg ready to be planted in the tree.

anybody bustin your chops has apparently not jumped outta too many baskets, or different types....hell Im 6ft & some of those baskets are above my waist, let alone if its winter & you`re wearing a set of bib`s or other.

Maybe these guys that are having such an easy time are in there early to mid 20`s, knees & backs are still functioning well, give em 20+ years of this stuff & jumping outta the basket will get more difficult!!! or maybe they have rode the bucket up most of their career & dont have the skill to get from the ground to the crown......LOL!

these guys today have it kinda easy, when I started you didnt even get in the bucket....that was the Vets tonka toy!! If you asked to run the bucket the reply was "Get your tools on & get up there" (usually large & scary). To take an elevator ride was a privilege & allowed usually only after you where up there, came down for lunch & needed to go back up to finish!!

Be safe Take Care!!!!!

LXT............


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## minny (Mar 16, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> They told us no in a osha meeting and I stood up and spoke
> and told them how I performed it, and he said it seemed safe
> to him but no rule on it! The only thing he did not like is instead
> of the full body harness, I was in my saddle. The way I do it is;
> ...



I know the "marvin pruner rope set" Please explain the "silky". 
Thanks.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 17, 2008)

minny said:


> I know the "marvin pruner rope set" Please explain the "silky".
> Thanks.



I don't recommend it but I have laid it on the undercut blade and set
it, when I forgot to load my pruner! I put black tape over the edges of
the vine and undercut part of the blade!


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## masterarbor (Mar 17, 2008)

juststumps said:


> your kidding ??? right ??? sometimes i'll set a guy in a tree... he flys the thing up,,, gets out,,, clears his line....
> 
> i would never drop the bucket out from one of my guys,,, unless he was totally in the clear !!!!
> 
> ...



this whole industry is calculated risk. i've done things that i wouldn't ever advise other people to do. the most dangerous thing i've done and i do it over and over, is climb the dang dead head silver maples. nothing i've ever done in a bucket compares to the risk of one of these. and no, i'm not kidding!:rockn:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> this whole industry is calculated risk. i've done things that i wouldn't ever advise other people to do. the most dangerous thing i've done and i do it over and over, is climb the dang dead head silver maples. nothing i've ever done in a bucket compares to the risk of one of these. and no, i'm not kidding!:rockn:



Then there are things that you will do alone, things that you would let a person do as a supervisor, and things that you will allow as an owner/production manager.

As your risk pool goes up, your risk tolerance has to go down.

One of the problems with the ANSI/OSHA discussions here is that we as practitioners disagree with the restrictions.

The purpose of OSHA as a body is to protect the line worker from overzealous employers putting them at risk.

The reason for compliance with training in compliance with ANSI/OSHA, as a company, is to reduce your liability in case of an accident or even inspection.

A crew leader who allows the bucketman to stand on the lip while working, he gets a struckby, falls onto his hip belt and breaks his back will be held liable. How many companies will stand by him and admit that it is accepted SOP?


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## pdqdl (Mar 17, 2008)

*************************************************
Quote:
Aerial lifts

The answer is no for aerial lifts. Section 1926.453(b)(2)(iv) states that "employees shall always stand firmly on the floor of the basket, and shall not sit or climb on the edge of the basket or use planks, ladders, or other devices for a work position." 
**************************************************

That does not sound like an exclusion for a step stool or ladder to get out of the darn thing. I am sure OSHA has some sort of rule about that too.

I can see how climbing out of a bucket too tall for a fella might cause him to fall on his head when he climbs out to drive the truck home for the day.

Doesn't someone make a short ladder that hangs on the edge of the bucket? It would be out of the way most of the time, easily moved, and would certainly make it easier to climb out of the bucket. It could even be made out of fiberglass, so as not to reduce the electrocution hazard.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2008)

> Doesn't someone make a short ladder that hangs on the edge of the bucket? It would be out of the way most of the time, easily moved, and would certainly make it easier to climb out of the bucket. It could even be made out of fiberglass, so as not to reduce the electrocution hazard.



Every bucket I've used has a built in step.


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## pdqdl (Mar 18, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Every bucket I've used has a built in step.



Sadly, none of the ones I have been in had steps on the inside. All the steps were on the outside. Doesn't help much after you are already in.

I really don't have much experience with bucket trucks except the dinosaur I owned until I sold it, and units I looked at for sale at auctions.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 19, 2008)

pdqdl said:


> All the steps were on the outside. Doesn't help much after you are already in.



They are all molded in so that the inside is hollow and you stick your tow in it.


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## beowulf343 (Mar 19, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> They are all molded in so that the inside is hollow and you stick your tow in it.



I've never been in a bucket without a liner.


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## pdqdl (Mar 20, 2008)

*How do I get outa this thing...*



beowulf343 said:


> I've never been in a bucket without a liner.



Yep ! 

Mine had a removable liner that was as slick on the inside as coffee cup. Straight sides, no steps.

Good thing that liner was there too: I broke the rules once, and worked a bit too close to the primary wires. Barely touched a wire with a 6' branch I was tossing, turned out it WAS NOT a ground wire, but a primary with a 7000 volt charge! I only caught a little tingle, less than sticking your tongue on a 9 volt battery, but... I resolved to NEVER work that close to a primary again. [at least until I was certified to do so!]


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## juststumps (Mar 20, 2008)

masterarbor said:


> this whole industry is calculated risk. i've done things that i wouldn't ever advise other people to do. the most dangerous thing i've done and i do it over and over, is climb the dang dead head silver maples. nothing i've ever done in a bucket compares to the risk of one of these. and no, i'm not kidding!:rockn:



there are no "calculated risks" !!!! you do it the safe way... if you have to think about it , and calulate it,, it's probably not the right way to go....
there are a few questions to ask you self... 
1: is this safe ???
2: do i have the skills to do this ??
3: do i have the right equipment, to do this ???
4: do you have the right personal,, backing me up ???
5: is there ZERO risk ???

if you can't answer all of the questions,, might want to rethink the way you do the job...

there is always an "AW ####" ,, that pops up on occasion... that can't be avoided....when something goes wrong no matter how well you planned it..

RUSSIAN ROULETTE is a calculated risk.... don't see a lot of people playing !!!!


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## masterarbor (Mar 20, 2008)

whatever...


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