# Silvey little feller



## DavdH (Sep 9, 2013)

Mini Silvey.


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## paccity (Sep 9, 2013)

clean, a little steep but they will go fast.


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 9, 2013)

Dam wish I had a grand to spend


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## bustedup (Sep 10, 2013)

DavdH said:


> *FYI* local Craigslist listing, I know someone was looking for jacks a while back.
> 
> tree jacks
> 
> View attachment 313852



I think it was NM that was looking ......those good jacks ..........lol a grand to spend ......jeez I'd like to have any money to spend


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## paccity (Sep 10, 2013)

sent a triple with a four speed up to se ak for 1800. and they were very pleased.


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## bustedup (Sep 10, 2013)

paccity said:


> sent a triple with a four speed up to se ak for 1800. and they were very pleased.



cool nice set up I bet


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## northmanlogging (Sep 10, 2013)

I am looking... 1k... thats alot to drop on something that I won't use real often... got some things to take care of with the logging bis. I guess I'll see how much is left at the end of the month.

Thanks for the link by the way.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 10, 2013)

*Just curious*

Just wondering why all ya'll loggers don't use ropes and ma more. Ya'll are looking at a 1k jack setup when a rope and a couple pulleys will do the same thing a lot cheaper. Just curious.


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## paccity (Sep 10, 2013)

opcorn:


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 10, 2013)

opcorn:


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## madhatte (Sep 10, 2013)

Awright, I'll say it. I'm a forestry guy so I can take the hit for the team if I make a jackass of myself.

Loggers don't have time to climb ####. Cutting a jack face is quick and easy. Slap the rams in and be done with it. Topping for rigging is a whole different issue. Leave the jack in the crummy in case you need it, and slay them stems however is most productive. Climbing is fiddly and time-consuming and should be avoided whenever possible. We're not Steve Sillett, you know.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 10, 2013)

Munch away, but you still haven't answered my question


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## madhatte (Sep 11, 2013)

No disrespect meant, but I daresay I have. Loggers keep their feet on the ground in these parts unless they're rigging something or jumping out of the way of something. Tall trees are lever enough to get the job done.


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## paccity (Sep 11, 2013)

residential work sure , but that is not logging. like the hatte said you don't have time to screw around rigging up every big stick. besides trying not to ruin the tree in the process .


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 11, 2013)

Wasn't talking about climbing. A throwball will set a rope up 70 - 80' up in a heartbeat. Seems quicker and cheaper than a 1k jack setup. That's my only point. If the tree is backleaning bad enough to need that jack setup, a rope setup seems cheaper and easier, is all I'm saying. Jeff


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## northmanlogging (Sep 11, 2013)

all right I'll bite...

Climbing is time consuming, takes about an hour sometimes 2 to climb and rig a tree, in that 1-2 hours I can have around 6 trees on the ground limbed and bucked ready to skid, If I where just falling for a processor crew then figure about 20 trees. With a jack I would only lose the 10-20 minutes to hike back to the crummy and another few minutes of jacking... move on the the next...

Its about production mostly. 

Secondly rigging trees for falling generally involves some piece of equipment to pull it over or a complicated set of come-a-longs and hand winches or even more expensive and heavier portable winches... The thing ya gotta remember is that many times we can't just park the truck next to the damn thing tie on and give er Hel. Yarder logging involves lots of hand falling and hand carrying everything. 

For me sure I skidder log, but to pull a 3-5' doug fir over with just a 12000 pound skidder is a little like having a tug of war against a tank, with enough leverage I can win... but your back to climbing and rigging and hoping you have enough cable not to squirsh the poor bastard driving the skidder if things go literally sideways.

The tree jacks are light portable easily operated and tough the bonus is they come with their own built in back pack you if your smarter than the average bunny hugger you only need to make one trip to the tree... unless spring boards are involved then plan on more...

the other alternative is to use a shovel/excavator to push it over, if you have one, which I don't, and you have to be able to get the machine right next to the tree which as mentioned above not always possible.

Hope that answers your question, unless your just trying to justify spending 1k to your war dept. in that case ignore everything...


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## northmanlogging (Sep 11, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Wasn't talking about climbing. A throwball will set a rope up 70 - 80' up in a heartbeat. Seems quicker and cheaper than a 1k jack setup. That's my only point. If the tree is backleaning bad enough to need that jack setup, a rope setup seems cheaper and easier, is all I'm saying. Jeff



the throw ball makes a valid point, almost.

In doug fir ceder and hemlock there are rarely any branches I would trust to hold the weight of the tree, if there are they are considerably more then 80' up. Unless you can tie a boomerang on to that throw line and get it around the trunk...:rolleyes2:

For oak or maple or many broad leaf trees then yes you have large stout branches to toss the throw ball over...

But you still have to pack 1-200 feet of bull line out into the sticks with all the associated rigging... then spool it up and pack it back... alone... while getting paid by the stick... (did I mention no groundies)


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 11, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Munch away, but you still haven't answered my question



Question have you ever tried to pull over a 96" D-fir with a rope that's leaning the wrong way?


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 11, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> the throw ball makes a valid point, almost.
> 
> In doug fir ceder and hemlock there are rarely any branches I would trust to hold the weight of the tree, if there are they are considerably more then 80' up. Unless you can tie a boomerang on to that throw line and get it around the trunk...:rolleyes2:
> 
> ...



So what's that jack weigh? I could set you up with a system that weighs 30 lbs or less, that you can set up in 5 minutes or less, solo, that will all fit in a five gallon bucket. Base tie the line, rig the pullies, lock off with a prussik, pretension, and finish off, no groundies. Just seems a lot easier and cheaper than that whole jack setup.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 11, 2013)

madmarksolomon said:


> Question have you ever tried to pull over a 96" D-fir with a rope that's leaning the wrong way?



Dbh" ?


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 11, 2013)

And how many degrees?


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## madhatte (Sep 11, 2013)

I would never be one to say there's nothing to be learned from a different perspective. I love learning new stuff. All I'm saying is that the reason folks around here do things the way we do is because it has proved over many years to work. Again, no disrespect.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 11, 2013)

None intended on this side either. Just offering a different point of view. I have pulled some hard leaners over that I never would have tried with a jack. Get a rope up high and the leverage is incredible.


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## bustedup (Sep 11, 2013)

JL for by all that hatte, pac and NM said ........and I get what ya saying bout the throwline .......however getting something to pull the rope could be an issue due to terrain and also there is the trust factor as well


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## 2dogs (Sep 11, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> None intended on this side either. Just offering a different point of view. I have pulled some hard leaners over that I never would have tried with a jack. Get a rope up high and the leverage is incredible.



You're in over your head here. Have you ever worked on a big conifer? A D-fir say 48" DBH might have limbs starting a 10' feet up that continue to the top at 175". There is no way to set a rope with a throw line with a hundred branches in the way that spread 60'. And yes I climb and yes I carry a throw line. I also have a BigShot. I'd like to have a line gun for that matter. I also know rigging and mechanical advantage. I taught it to firefighters. I have a ton of rigging stuff, pulleys, bull ropes, wire rope, a Tirfor winch (aka Grip Hoist). I even have a winch on my truck. And lots of wedges, my favorite being a hot pink wedge from Warshington. But, none of that replaces a jack when it's needed. 

Your title says Logger so you have to understand the concept of "local conditions". (And you also need to understand that our mountains can be quite steep. So steep you can't drive up to the tree.) If I were to be hired to fell trees in Texas I would ask lots of questions and LISTEN to the answers. I would not say "well in California we do it this way...". If I had to fall someone's 12" tree in their front yard of their trailer park I would not grab the jack. Nor would I drive the D8 through the neighborhood and hook up a 3/4" wire rope. I would use the appropriate response to the local conditions and needs of the tree. 

Take a look on youtube for some big take downs and the use of jacks. You might just learn something. Or maybe not.


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## imagineero (Sep 11, 2013)

I use throwlines and pull ropes every day, but I wouldn't be taking one with me if I went back to logging for so many reasons, and some of them have already been mentioned. You're going to need at least 2 throwline setups, or maybe 3, 200' of 5/8" minimum (300' would be better), and a big shot or a crossbow or whatever line launching tool you prefer. That's a lot of gear to haul. Depending on what region you're in and what you're working with, you may not be able to get a clear shot anyhow. If you can get a clear shot, and get the line back to the ground successfully (clock's ticking!) you then have to rig up MA (and carry those pulleys and carabiners, slings etc with you also). You then have to tension it yourself since you don't have a groundie, and you'll need some kind of progress capture, then back to the tree, then cut, back to the rope (don't walk down the path of the lay!) and maybe repeat that a couple times. If you're on steep ground, and falling down hill, you may never be able to get an angle of better than 20* on your rope which is completely useless anyhow. And even if all goes well and the tree goes over, you now have to get the rope back out from under the tree. You won't be shouldering it over, and you have to buck to length just like normal, so how are you going to get the rope out?

Jacks make sense for some kinds of work. We don't have any of that kind of work where I'm at in aus, but there's plenty of it down south with all the Eucalyptus Regnans down there, good size trees with many over 6' DBH, and many specimens in the 200'+ range, some with the first branch well over 100'. You're not wedging that over. 

Throwlines and pull ropes make a lot of sense when you've got just one tree, and it has to go right. If you've got a few hundred thousand and there's nothing to damage other than the trees and yourself, then you've got to get on with the work.

Shaun


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## northmanlogging (Sep 11, 2013)

I would totally drive a D8 through a trailer park:wink2:


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## paccity (Sep 11, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I would totally drive a D8 through a trailer park:wink2:



yup.


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## Gologit (Sep 11, 2013)

Good answers to JL's question so far. His question was good too.
We need to get him out here and let him spend a week or so watching how we do things. I wouldn't want to do his job...dropping trees around houses and powerlines gives me the willies.

Jeff, pulling a big tree with a bull line is still done but it's not a common thing anymore. And it's hardly ever done on a straight production show. Too slow and awkward. A good faller who knows how to use jacks and wedges can do the same thing in a fraction of the time. Our logging out here is about getting as much wood on the ground as quickly as you safely can. 

On specific trees, hazard trees and such, there's still some climbing, rigging and pulling going on. Get a copy of Beranek's book...High Climbers and Timber Fallers. There's some great pictures and descriptions of rigging and pulling Redwoods to look at. But note that they're usually not done in the context of pure logging...as in production...but more to mitigate hazard or try to save out some old outlaw that was passed over in previous years because it was low grade. Any Redwood is valuable now and the guys will go to great lengths to save it out.


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## 2dogs (Sep 11, 2013)

paccity said:


> yup.



I couldn't rep you and there is no "like" function so this will have to do.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 12, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Good answers to JL's question so far. His question was good too.
> We need to get him out here and let him spend a week or so watching how we do things. I wouldn't want to do his job...dropping trees around houses and powerlines gives me the willies.
> 
> Jeff, pulling a big tree with a bull line is still done but it's not a common thing anymore. And it's hardly ever done on a straight production show. Too slow and awkward. A good faller who knows how to use jacks and wedges can do the same thing in a fraction of the time. Our logging out here is about getting as much wood on the ground as quickly as you safely can.
> ...



And to me that's what this site's all about. If you'll look back, my original post was entitled "just curious". Didn't mean to offend any one. I know ya'll deal with some monsters we don't have in Texas, although it isn't all scrub oaks and trailer homes down here either. Big Thicket are has plenty of 140-150' 60+" dbh loblollys. Bob, I'd give my left nut ( keep in mind that's the one that got squished by my saddle a few years ago and I don't fully trust) to spend a week up there. Who know's maybe we can make that happen some day. Jeff


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## northmanlogging (Sep 12, 2013)

No offense here...

However if you have a D8 and a mobile home park that needs squirshed you be sure to give me a call...:msp_wink:


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## bustedup (Sep 12, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> No offense here...
> 
> However if you have a D8 and a mobile home park that needs squirshed you be sure to give me a call...:msp_wink:



I could juss see ya doing that bro lol......then shouting ya tag line bout making a mess lol


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 12, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> No offense here...
> 
> However if you have a D8 and a mobile home park that needs squirshed you be sure to give me a call...:msp_wink:



Believe me, after Ike there were a few trees that I thought if I'd dropped 'em the wrong way I'd be doin' 'em a favor... just sayin...


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## treeslayer2003 (Sep 12, 2013)

Jeff, 60" lob is a hoss. we have a very few that size. do you have any long leaf pine?


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 12, 2013)

No, it's almost all loblolly. The true tragedy of the Bastrop fire was how it ripped through the "Lost Pines" area of.. central Texas. It was the last stand of Central Texas large pines. It ripped the heart out of that stand. They're working on reforesting efforts, but it will be a century long effort. As far as East Texas goes, no longleafs I've seen, just big loblolly.


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## TheJollyLogger (Sep 12, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Jeff, 60" lob is a hoss. we have a very few that size. do you have any long leaf pine?



And keep in mind those were very rare, most aren't nearly that big.


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## greg storms (Sep 13, 2013)

*bed/breakfast/tree cuttn*



TheJollyLogger said:


> And to me that's what this site's all about. If you'll look back, my original post was entitled "just curious". Didn't mean to offend any one. I know ya'll deal with some monsters we don't have in Texas, although it isn't all scrub oaks and trailer homes down here either. Big Thicket are has plenty of 140-150' 60+" dbh loblollys. Bob, I'd give my left nut ( keep in mind that's the one that got squished by my saddle a few years ago and I don't fully trust) to spend a week up there. Who know's maybe we can make that happen some day. Jeff



That's a marketable idea: have a family member open a bed n breakfast & charge a fee to let us curious ones spend a day watching, cuttn n funnin!


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## madmarksolomon (Sep 13, 2013)

greg storms said:


> That's a marketable idea: have a family member open a bed n breakfast & charge a fee to let us curious ones spend a day watching, cuttn n funnin!



Bed and beer


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## treeslayer2003 (Sep 13, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> No, it's almost all loblolly. The true tragedy of the Bastrop fire was how it ripped through the "Lost Pines" area of.. central Texas. It was the last stand of Central Texas large pines. It ripped the heart out of that stand. They're working on reforesting efforts, but it will be a century long effort. As far as East Texas goes, no longleafs I've seen, just big loblolly.



that is a shame, but if they reforest what was there that be good. we had at least 4 different pines, at least 3 get really big but slow growers. they only plant lob and I think it a hybred, it don't get big n tall like our bull pine. it does grow fast like for pulp.


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## 1270d (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm curious, what do you normally do with trees that need to be jacked. Do you leave them till you have a few to do, or lay em down as they come. How commonly is a jack needed?


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## Gologit (Sep 13, 2013)

1270d said:


> I'm curious, what do you normally do with trees that need to be jacked. Do you leave them till you have a few to do, or lay em down as they come. How commonly is a jack needed?



If I can, I try to cut around them and save them for later. I can't always do that...usually because of terrain or lay...but it seems to work better for me if I can fall them into clear ground. 

Where I work there isn't a _lot_ of jacking anymore but it's still common enough that a good faller will usually have a set. Most of what I see being jacked now are trees that lean into an RMZ or out into a sensitive boundary. Lots of powerlines around too, especially close to town.

A big valuable tree can be jacked into a softer lay sometimes to try and save it out. The key word here is _try_...it doesn't always work. That's another reason why I like doing them by themselves. If it's one tree, keeping it in lead doesn't matter nearly as much as lay.

Cutting alongside a highway or a roadway with any amount of traffic usually calls for some jacking. We'll put out flaggers and stop traffic but if a big one gets away and damages the roadway whatever agency owns the road starts getting dollar signs in their eyes. You're not only liable for the damaged spot but also a large area around it and all the extra people involved in getting the tree out of the way.

Jacks, once you catch on to using them effectively, are good cheap insurance. You might not use them often but when you have to you'll be glad you got them.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 13, 2013)

1270d said:


> I'm curious, what do you normally do with trees that need to be jacked. Do you leave them till you have a few to do, or lay em down as they come. How commonly is a jack needed?



its funny you should ask...
Used a 20t bottle jack to tip a cotton wood today... but I'm new to jacking, otherwise it stays in the crummy until its needed, have a couple few tomorrow that may or may not need jacking... we'll have to see.

Another benefit of the silvey is that the pump is generally separate from the jack so you can watch the top while pumping away, with a bottle jack its a little odd...


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## paccity (Sep 13, 2013)

the set i sent to ak a few months ago went to work the day after arrival. a few boundary fatties. a very nice and efficient tool to have when you need it.


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## paccity (Sep 13, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> its funny you should ask...
> Used a 20t bottle jack to tip a cotton wood today... but I'm new to jacking, otherwise it stays in the crummy until its needed, have a couple few tomorrow that may or may not need jacking... we'll have to see.
> 
> Another benefit of the silvey is that the pump is generally separate from the jack so you can watch the top while pumping away, with a bottle jack its a little odd...


you have a gauge on that jack.? one more thing to look at besides the stem.


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## Gologit (Sep 13, 2013)

paccity said:


> you have a gauge on that jack.? one more thing to look at besides the stem.



A gauge is good to have but sometimes they're scary to watch. If It's windy and the tree is setting back on the jack and then off again that gauge going redline will sure get your attention. You start working a little faster then. Okay, you start working a lot faster. 

I'd rather have a gauge than not, though.

With a bottle jack I'd worry about the fixed head slipping out and then the tree setting back..and if you're sawed up far enough it can come right back over the hinge at you. I think maybe with a bottle jack I wouldn't try to lift very far.


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## DavdH (Sep 13, 2013)

I noticed there are no jack plates w/ this jack, my tree saver has big jack places w/ cut outs machined for the jacks to set in. The gauge is good (fun and scary) to watch, really gets interesting in the wind, doesn't take much wind to show up on a gauge. We always BACK UP THE JACKING WITH WEDGES so with a jack you need a couple dozen rifled 12" wedges. As Gologit mentioned if you are jacking there is a reason and usually a problem, hopefully being solved, and some times made much worse. Almost always involved are structure, roads and power lines. We mostly jack big stuff to keep it out of a meadow or stream protection areas because they make you go in and hand pile in those areas, we even, rarely, rig up a tree to pull as an absolute last resort usually for hazard removal, putting a steel choker up a tree isn't like throwing a line and pulling up a rope. If you are going to pull with a D7 you better have something that can take 70,000 lbs. or things go screwy fast, and 200' of 7/8" line is heavy, it usually take at least that much to keep the cat skinner on the cat.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 13, 2013)

paccity said:


> you have a gauge on that jack.? one more thing to look at besides the stem.



no gauge... why I still want a set of silveys... the bottle jacks work but they sure ain't ideal...


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## madhatte (Sep 13, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> no gauge... why I still want a set of silveys... the bottle jacks work but they sure ain't ideal...



It's like you're reading my mind.


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## bitzer (Sep 13, 2013)

I jacked two big limby maples away from a corn field the other day. Saved them for later cause packin that jack around (60lbs or so) is a #####. I should have jacked a heavy topped maple that was leanin over the main skid road today. I beat the #### out of myself wedging it instead. Like what was probably mentioned before, the jack is just a helper- wedges should always be pounded and snugged at the same time. 

Jacking is just a mechanical advantage very similar to wedges. You could almost say why wedge a tree when you could put a rope in it? Just not practical in a production timber falling situation. 

There was a shed and the property boundary directly behind me here.






Not your everyday situation, but I had an indian burial mound behind me here. 





View attachment 314231

View attachment 314236


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## hammerlogging (Sep 14, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I would totally drive a D8 through a trailer park:wink2:



Mmmm, double like.


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## imagineero (Sep 15, 2013)

Bitzer, did you make that jack handle yourself? Does the plate on the end act as a lever for levering trees over?

Shaun


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## hammerlogging (Sep 15, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Bitzer, did you make that jack handle yourself? Does the plate on the end act as a lever for levering trees over?
> 
> Shaun



bet ya 5 cent its a foot pad for leg jacking. a 5 cent guess.


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## 2dogs (Sep 18, 2013)

TheJollyLogger said:


> And to me that's what this site's all about. If you'll look back, my original post was entitled "just curious". Didn't mean to offend any one. I know ya'll deal with some monsters we don't have in Texas, although it isn't all scrub oaks and trailer homes down here either. Big Thicket are has plenty of 140-150' 60+" dbh loblollys. Bob, I'd give my left nut ( keep in mind that's the one that got squished by my saddle a few years ago and I don't fully trust) to spend a week up there. Who know's maybe we can make that happen some day. Jeff



You really should call the Texas forest service and report those champion trees. If they exist. Which they don't. 

Here is a link the champion Loblolly pine in Texas. 52" DBH (165 CBH) and 130' tall.
http://texasforestservice.tamu.edu/...try/Big_Tree_Registry/TheBigNews-Fall2008.pdf


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## bitzer (Sep 22, 2013)

Nope, no foot jacking! Although not a bad idea. Yeah I made that as a felling lever for this one particular job where it was absolutely crucial that all the timber go a certain direction. That direction was away from indian burial mounds. That meant directionally falling every little damn stick. It worked well, but I've not used it since. No need for it really. Just a jack handle now.


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## NW.log.cutr (Dec 28, 2013)

Your ropes will take about an hour maybe two to get a tree in the ground. How bout you bring your ropes and I'll bring my big doubles and see who gets the treedown faster......


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