# Question for the deer hunters....



## treesquirrel

OK, my nephew calls me up all excited about his buddies recent kill..

Long story short it is in fact a very big buck with a nice 12 point rack. The guy drove out to hunt camp, walked to his spot, climbed up and in 15 minutes had his kill.

Nothing real weird about that huh? Well, maybe...

Now I have been away from deer hunting since 1982 and have really had no real motivation to renew the efforts. but when i hunted we would go into the forest and scout out all the signs and travel habits and set ourselves up accordingly.

The new method according to my nephew is to place a feeder in a choice spot for the entire year keeping it stocked then once deer season hits remove it since it is illegal, then hunt the spot shooting whatever meets your standard if it shows up.

So, mr deer shows up at the same spot he has been getting his sausage and egg biscuit for 11.5 months every morning and whammo! dead.

I found it impossible to see any reason to be proud of this kill.

I do hope that the sport of hunting does still involve some actual "hunting" these days. Or is this the "new hunting" as a standard practice?


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## palogger

*baiting*

well wher i live it is illegal to hunt an area that has been baited within the last 30 days so by then the deer have usually found someplace else to feed


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## tree md

*Baiting/feeding*

Baiting/feeding is a sticky subject. On the one hand, is it what us that came up hunting the hardwoods when there were few deer call hunting... No. On the other hand, us hunters always think we have all the answers and think that we should dictate state hunting laws. It's a proven fact that baiting/feeding deer is a very effective management tool and that's why a lot of wildlife agencies use it to control deer populations. The American Indians did it, Daniel Boone did it and it is considered an acceptable method for a Pope and Young or Boone and Crocket buck.We all hunt at the pleasure of the powers that be and are really just considered the best management tool available to date. I think we are slipping down a slippery slope when we start trying to tell the wildlife agencies how to manage the deer population. Kind of like a home owner giving an arborist advice on how to treat a tree. I have spent most of my life hunting public land where baiting/feeding was illegal. I have spent the past 4 years hunting where it is not only legal but popular. Given fact here is that if you don't have a feeder out the deer are going to be where another hunter has his feeder out legally during hard times. That means if you want to hold a population of does and have them keep their home range in your territory you better add another play to your play book and put a feeder out.

I have been hunting where feeders are legal now for 4 years and have seen zero 3 1/2 year old bucks or better come in to a feeder. What it does do is hold does which eventually bring the bucks into the area. In my situation, you can hunt over the feeder and kill a doe or young buck easily but you need to hunt the vicinity to see the mature bucks... You have to have a feeder out to hold the does and compete with other hunters when you live where it's legal. The big boys shy away from the feeders. 

I do know what your talking about though... I have seen places in Texas where they have it down to a science and run the deer population like a cattle operation.


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## tree md

*Correction...*

Correction: I have never see a 3 1/2 year old or better buck come in to a feeder in daylight.

This guy only comes out at night. I have not seen him move during daylight hours since he was a 1 1/2 year old. He is now 3 1/2. He waits till he knows the coons will spin a little corn out in the wee hours of the morning and then shows up... He's a night prowler...







Don't fool yourselves guys, they don't get big by accident... After they get to a certain age they are absolute masters of their territory. I have the utmost respect for them. they are so smart and their senses and ability to detect danger (that 6th sense) is absolutely uncanny. The big boys are like ghosts and rare to see. I mostly bowhunt these days and just to be in the presence of an old buck at close quarters is a special and rare thing. It's the biggest rush in the world to me.


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## Mad Professor

Baiting is not hunting.


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## ropensaddle

tree md said:


> Baiting/feeding is a sticky subject. On the one hand, is it what us that came up hunting the hardwoods when there were few deer call hunting... No. On the other hand, us hunters always think we have all the answers and think that we should dictate state hunting laws. It's a proven fact that baiting/feeding deer is a very effective management tool and that's why a lot of wildlife agencies use it to control deer populations. The American Indians did it, Daniel Boone did it and it is considered an acceptable method for a Pope and Young or Boone and Crocket buck.We all hunt at the pleasure of the powers that be and are really just considered the best management tool available to date. I think we are slipping down a slippery slope when we start trying to tell the wildlife agencies how to manage the deer population. Kind of like a home owner giving an arborist advice on how to treat a tree. I have spent most of my life hunting public land where baiting/feeding was illegal. I have spent the past 4 years hunting where it is not only legal but popular. Given fact here is that if you don't have a feeder out the deer are going to be where another hunter has his feeder out legally during hard times. That means if you want to hold a population of does and have them keep their home range in your territory you better add another play to your play book and put a feeder out.
> 
> I have been hunting where feeders are legal now for 4 years and have seen zero 3 1/2 year old bucks or better come in to a feeder. What it does do is hold does which eventually bring the bucks into the area. In my situation, you can hunt over the feeder and kill a doe or young buck easily but you need to hunt the vicinity to see the mature bucks... You have to have a feeder out to hold the does and compete with other hunters when you live where it's legal. The big boys shy away from the feeders.
> 
> I do know what your talking about though... I have seen places in Texas where they have it down to a science and run the deer population like a cattle operation.



I agree I put out feed on my farm to keep does don't shoot
nothing off a feeder so not to spook the deer from it but will
hunt trails leading to it and usually the faint trail is the one
that most interests me! I killed a fair six point in Oct with my
bow on public ground no feed on a scrape line now holding out
for mr big. I enjoy hunting public ground and some of the largest
bucks I have taken have been on that ground but away from roads
two miles on foot. I have found that too much scouting in season
is a curse I scout for deer in turkey season and turkey in deer season!
Even with rubber gloves,boots and extreme scent control you leave
scent I now have areas I stay out of until the last of oct and usually
see at least two book deer per season on those spots on public
no bait stands my farm is more a meat stand.


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## ropensaddle

tree md said:


> Correction: I have never see a 3 1/2 year old or better buck come in to a feeder in daylight.
> 
> This guy only comes out at night. I have not seen him move during daylight hours since he was a 1 1/2 year old. He is now 3 1/2. He waits till he knows the coons will spin a little corn out in the wee hours of the morning and then shows up... He's a night prowler...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't fool yourselves guys, they don't get big by accident... After they get to a certain age they are absolute masters of their territory. I have the utmost respect for them. they are so smart and their senses and ability to detect danger (that 6th sense) is absolutely uncanny. The big boys are like ghosts and rare to see. I mostly bowhunt these days and just to be in the presence of an old buck at close quarters is a special and rare thing. It's the biggest rush in the world to me.


Again I must agree but spring turkey is even better when things happen
right. The only reason a adult buck is taken is his breeding urge he will
usually beat a hunter in his core area as this summer pattern is usually
small and he knows every blade of grass in it. Early season bucks and
post rut bucks in mountainous areas are the hardest creatures to predict
I witnessed a buck get off his bed and moved in a thirty yard radius the
whole mourning and early afternoon before bedding and not getting up
til dark this buck never presented a shot and the next year the same
I finally gave up on this ghost!


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## tree md

Yup, I do the same. I have a feeder out just to hold deer in the area. I never shoot a deer or hunt over the feeder. I don't want to scare the does off of it. I also agree that there is a difference in meat hunting and hunting for the excitement of seeing Mr. Big. I hunted a permanent wooden stand that we have set up right off of a 1 track, dirt access road this morning. It overlooks a drainage that runs down to a creek and we call it doe hollow. I know that I can go there and bust a doe at anytime. I saw 14 does there this morning. Had a group of five cross and let them walk. 5 minutes later, I had another group of five come through the exact same trail and decided to bust one and fill a doe tag for the freezer. 110 pounds field dressed, My biggest doe to date. Was it as fun or challenging as drawing my bow an a big buck... Nope but it was still pretty darn fun. Meat in the freezer and I did my part for management of the herd. My dad got a young buck. Not one that I would have killed but my dad is old school. He likes meat in the freezer. The older I get the less I worry about how other people hunt and what methods they use. As long as they are hunting legally and having fun that's just fine by me. However, if the guy mentioned in the original post is baiting where it is not legal he is just an outright poacher.


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## tree md

Oh yeah, meant to say that that is a fine buck you got on your trailcam Rope! Have you seen him in person yet???

Here's my doe and dad's buck from this morning:


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## ropensaddle

I saw him once in low light and too many limbs to sneak an
arrow in! That is the best on our farm but he is mostly night
moving and I have waisted a lot of time on him
I would rather hunt the public land deer usually as too
many neighbors around the farm keep deer spooked 
and kill them before they are ripe.


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## ray benson

Lightened up the pic. Nice rack. They don't get big by being dumb.


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## tree md

Thanks Ray. I can see him a lot better now. Seeing as how I only get to see a rare pic of him this days, I really appreciate it!


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## spencerhenry

baiting is not hunting.

if it is illegal in your state to hunt over bait, then it is probably illegal to hunt over a bait station even if the food is momentarily gone.

in february, i am testifying against a buy who like to hunt over salt. i testified and he was convicted of 2 illegal elk, one a trophy, 4 years ago, he appealed and won. the conviction was thrown out on a technicality, improper jury instruction. the DA f-ed up but if the jury convicted once, i think it will happen again.

if you are breaking the rules, it is not hunting, it is POACHING!


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## ross_scott

I would never have a bait station to attract my target species. I would rather sit and wait on the edge of a clearing or if it is mating season I would use a stag caller (similar to a duck caller) to imitate the roar of a stag and attract it that way. Laying bait is just an easy way of making sure you get a bit of meat to put on the table.


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## RCR 3 EVER

*Baiting is not hunting*

We have 128 acres and no feed stations, the 1 salt block we had got shot up and destroyed by unruly neighbors. The block was up for less than 3 months before getting destroyed. Neighbors routinely trespass, put up tree stands,cut down shoot lanes and poach deer.:angry2:  We would like to get some small food plots going, but fear neighbors would take full advantage of them!

Our family has never used bait of any kind all we do is sit in blinds and wait for the deer to wander by. Food bait is just plain wrong and should not allowed in this day and age.

I have taken 1-11 point buck and several does and others have taken smaller bucks. I don't shoot for trophy size but rather for the freezer. 
We consider ourselves lucky to see deer let alone a shooter.

Three years ago we would see 2-3 doz. turkeys during deer season and prior to. For last 2 years I have seen only 6 birds total for whole season 15 days long, last year there were no turkeys. I guess they are on someone's plate.


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## cmetalbend

*feeders*

Where I live it is required that you hunt within 150 yards of the feeder. If you put one out. Make's no sence to me but, that is what I overheard the game fuzzy tell a student when I took my wife in to the hunter ed program. But really depends on how you consider it. Are you feeding, or baiting? I have one feeder and my stand in 50yds from it. Took 3 deer last year at the same time within 2 min. This year they didn't touch it cause the wheat was still in good shape and it wasn't cold enough yet. Here the deer are way over populated. Shoot all you can overpopulated.


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## Wortown Mick

*Bsss*

Lets not forget the essence of hunting.

You go in the woods and come out with food. 

However you go about it from there is irrelevant IMO

I dont care if your hunting herds of deer with full auto belt fed machine guns. 

Hunting is to put food in your belly. 



Now if your not too hungry & hunting for sport.. may as well play by the rules. 


Spencerhenry.. What would possess you to testify in court over somethin like that? 

Loooser, what did he shoot the trophy elk you were scouting preseason or something? 

I know things are different in CO than MA but out here the general rule is snitches get stitches. Maybe not so much as poaching as in other illegal activities but regardless.


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## logger121

*baiting is bad*



Wortown Mick said:


> Lets not forget the essence of hunting.
> 
> You go in the woods and come out with food.
> 
> However you go about it from there is irrelevant IMO
> 
> I dont care if your hunting herds of deer with full auto belt fed machine guns.
> 
> Hunting is to put food in your belly.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if your not too hungry & hunting for sport.. may as well play by the rules.
> 
> 
> Spencerhenry.. What would possess you to testify in court over somethin like that?
> 
> Loooser, what did he shoot the trophy elk you were scouting preseason or something?
> 
> I know things are different in CO than MA but out here the general rule is snitches get stitches. Maybe not so much as poaching as in other illegal activities but regardless.



im 17 and never gottin a deer yet, but its the fact that your out in the woods to survive, not to get a trophy


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## RCR 3 EVER

*Illegal hunts*



Wortown Mick said:


> Lets not forget the essence of hunting.
> 
> You go in the woods and come out with food.
> 
> However you go about it from there is irrelevant IMO
> 
> I dont care if your hunting herds of deer with full auto belt fed machine guns.
> 
> Hunting is to put food in your belly.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if your not too hungry & hunting for sport.. may as well play by the rules.
> 
> 
> Spencerhenry.. What would possess you to testify in court over somethin like that?
> 
> Loooser, what did he shoot the trophy elk you were scouting preseason or something?
> 
> I know things are different in CO than MA but out here the general rule is snitches get stitches. Maybe not so much as poaching as in other illegal activities but regardless.



Poachers rob hunters of meat and trophies pure and simple, they also cut fences and damage property any way they can to get to an animal.THe laws and punishment are not harsh enough to stop them or even to blink at.One poacher shot over 100 deer before getting caught, his punishment, a measly fine of a few thousand dollars,Big deal:angry2: :angry2: 
We have found deer carcasses every year on our property, some gunshot and some arrow, well after the season closed. some still had heads and antlers attached where maybe they did not even try to track it. All the deer had substantial meat left on the carcass. It is a disgusting waste of a resource I may have wanted for myself or a family member!!!
It is normal to hear shooting all day long near our property as everyone seems to have a gun and always "practice". There is even a Police shooting range" 1/2 mile away,and a DNR station also there, yet dead deer are always found on our property. We found one DOE in our driveway leading to house.
If I saw a poacher they would get testified against no doubt they just better hope they are not caught shooting on our property when we are "practice shooting" at a target stand.:biggrinbounce2:


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## logger121

*Ahmen*



RCR 3 EVER said:


> Poachers rob hunters of meat and trophies pure and simple, they also cut fences and damage property any way they can to get to an animal.THe laws and punishment are not harsh enough to stop them or even to blink at.One poacher shot over 100 deer before getting caught, his punishment, a measly fine of a few thousand dollars,Big deal:angry2: :angry2:
> We have found deer carcasses every year on our property, some gunshot and some arrow, well after the season closed. some still had heads and antlers attached where maybe they did not even try to track it. All the deer had substantial meat left on the carcass. It is a disgusting waste of a resource I may have wanted for myself or a family member!!!
> It is normal to hear shooting all day long near our property as everyone seems to have a gun and always "practice". There is even a Police shooting range" 1/2 mile away,and a DNR station also there, yet dead deer are always found on our property. We found one DOE in our driveway leading to house.
> If I saw a poacher they would get testified against no doubt they just better hope they are not caught shooting on our property when we are "practice shooting" at a target stand.:biggrinbounce2:



Ahmen to that man, anyone who gets caught gets back woods justice


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## osb_mail

Wortown Mick said:


> Lets not forget the essence of hunting.
> 
> You go in the woods and come out with food.
> 
> However you go about it from there is irrelevant IMO
> 
> I dont care if your hunting herds of deer with full auto belt fed machine guns.
> 
> Hunting is to put food in your belly.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if your not too hungry & hunting for sport.. may as well play by the rules.
> 
> 
> Spencerhenry.. What would possess you to testify in court over somethin like that?
> 
> Loooser, what did he shoot the trophy elk you were scouting preseason or something?
> 
> I know things are different in CO than MA but out here the general rule is snitches get stitches. Maybe not so much as poaching as in other illegal activities but regardless.



I am with mick as long as you permission to hunt there and land owner knows what you are up to you eat all killed who cares ??


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## StihlRockin'

treesquirrel said:


> I do hope that the sport of hunting does still involve some actual "hunting" these days. Or is this the "new hunting" as a standard practice?



I did not read any of the posts except the first one. I can say this is not the usual standard of practice everywhere, but it is in some places.

While I do not participate in that style of hunting because it's "_not my cup of tea"_, I appreciate the fact they can do that in that area and if they so choose to hunt that way, Great! I do not talk down to my brethren hunters and their techniques. If it's legal, go for it if it's to your liking. I'm just glad they have the right to hunt and it's not my place to talk down to fellow hunters about legal hunting methods they utilize.

God Bless 'em.

StihlRockin'


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## Wortown Mick

RCR 3 EVER said:


> Poachers rob hunters of meat and trophies pure and simple, they also cut fences and damage property any way they can to get to an animal.THe laws and punishment are not harsh enough to stop them or even to blink at.One poacher shot over 100 deer before getting caught, his punishment, a measly fine of a few thousand dollars,Big deal:angry2: :angry2:
> We have found deer carcasses every year on our property, some gunshot and some arrow, well after the season closed. some still had heads and antlers attached where maybe they did not even try to track it. All the deer had substantial meat left on the carcass. It is a disgusting waste of a resource I may have wanted for myself or a family member!!!
> It is normal to hear shooting all day long near our property as everyone seems to have a gun and always "practice". There is even a Police shooting range" 1/2 mile away,and a DNR station also there, yet dead deer are always found on our property. We found one DOE in our driveway leading to house.
> If I saw a poacher they would get testified against no doubt they just better hope they are not caught shooting on our property when we are "practice shooting" at a target stand.:biggrinbounce2:




If its brown its down. 

Once im in the woods I dont respect or recognize property lines, if its posted I avoid the area. 

I agree with tracking your prey.. miles if need be. If you find a blood trail after you take the shot you know you hit and have a responsibility to harvest the animal. mind you there are no boundaries to tracking a wounded animal, I dont care if it goes right up to your house and dies on your front porch... Im gettin my deer. 

Cutting fences and damaging property is low, not much of that around here.


And IMO if your hunting to live there is no hunting season. Sundays and after dark are fair game, but thats not your average case. 

I play by the rules to be a good sport though.. you must have a high deer population. I dont know anyone who would kill something and leave it in the woods out here or not bother with tracking


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## tree md

“A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. The ethics of sportsmanship is not a fixed code, but must be formulated by the individual, with no referee but the Almighty.” Aldo Leupold


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## PB

I would rather go to the shooting range and shoot a can of green beans.


If you wanted to have a good "hunt" go to the local cow pasture, put up a stand above the bunk feeder and wait for a big one to come walking on over.


Real men turkey hunt.


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## Burvol

These two Blacktails were taken the hard way, spot and stock. I think that hunting over a feeder is not hunting, but simply harvesting deer that are hanging out in a particular area (my part of the US feeders are considered cheating). However, if you just want some meat, hell ya, go for it. Who cares what you do leagally for some meat, I love venesion. Just don't pee down my leg and tell me it's raining when you come over with your antlers in your truck, telling me about the pursuit of your trophy and your hunt. I totally support hunting for meat, the really only reason anyone should hunt. I happen to like to shoot a big buck for the challange, the antlers are nice in my office and you get more meat. I have never, ever had a big Buck tast "gamey" either. I will hang the animals for two to three days, then de-bone and cut all meat and grind burger myself. I have been doing it since I got my first deer when I was 10.


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## smokechase II

*Vegetarians always complain about hunting technique.*

Vegetarians always complain about the hunting techniques of others.

They are well known for killing all the plants in a given area, then baiting select plants with nutrients- sunlight - water.

Their hunts are conducted throughout the year when they imprison their 'harvests' in greenhouses.

Talking about a sliding scale of ethics.

_Let baiters cheat
So that they can eat
theirs is but a minimal existence
based of the fruits of subsistence
Others complaining is just raw meat._


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## PA Plumber

I do bait. 1 1/2 acres of New Zealand White Clover and working on another 1 acre of soy beans or corn for next season. 

It just takes a while for the "bait" to grow!


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## Burvol

I have never personally done it (honestly), but shooting deer on logging jobs at first light in your strip is pretty common. When you peer over the edge of the unit, a lot of times early in the morning there is deer feeding on the fresh moss and lichens on felled trees. They really like that stuff, I have seen some nice bucks doing this.


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## RCR 3 EVER

Wortown Mick said:


> If its brown its down.
> 
> Once im in the woods I dont respect or recognize property lines, if its posted I avoid the area.
> 
> I agree with tracking your prey.. miles if need be. If you find a blood trail after you take the shot you know you hit and have a responsibility to harvest the animal. mind you there are no boundaries to tracking a wounded animal, I dont care if it goes right up to your house and dies on your front porch... Im gettin my deer.
> 
> Cutting fences and damaging property is low, not much of that around here.
> 
> 
> And IMO if your hunting to live there is no hunting season. Sundays and after dark are fair game, but thats not your average case.
> 
> I play by the rules to be a good sport though.. you must have a high deer population. I dont know anyone who would kill something and leave it in the woods out here or not bother with tracking



Last Fall I shot 1 buck that was trailing 2 does. One shot and it was down in 50 yds. The 2 does are the only other deer I saw for the next 12 days of hunting. My wife also saw 3 does ,may have been same ones, that were too far to shoot cleanly thru all the pine undergrowth.My dad saw none in 5 days, same with 2 brothers. 
Last year I saw 1 doe in 2+weeks, it it ran me over and I shot it in self defense from 10 yds away, it fell at my feet. My wife saw 5 does in first 2 days of gun season then none for next 2 weeks and my nephew shot a nice buck. 
So, we do not have a huge herd of deer and in fact DNR says population is below optimum levels for our area. But we still find poached deer with lots of meat on the body, only tenderloin is taken in most cases.

In fact, I found lots of whole corn pieces spread along shoulders of the main roads where poachers can probably just sit and wait for deer to come and eat near the road leading into property where deer were found. opcorn: I reported the corn to DNR and they said they would look into it, do not know if anything was done though. No accidents of grain haulers were reported to anyone.


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## PA Plumber

Wortown Mick said:


> If its brown its down.
> 
> Once im in the woods I dont respect or recognize property lines, if its posted I avoid the area.
> 
> I agree with tracking your prey.. miles if need be. If you find a blood trail after you take the shot you know you hit and have a responsibility to harvest the animal. mind you there are no boundaries to tracking a wounded animal, I dont care if it goes right up to your house and dies on your front porch... Im gettin my deer.
> 
> Cutting fences and damaging property is low, not much of that around here.
> 
> 
> And IMO if your hunting to live there is no hunting season. Sundays and after dark are fair game, but thats not your average case.
> 
> I play by the rules to be a good sport though.. you must have a high deer population. I dont know anyone who would kill something and leave it in the woods out here or not bother with tracking



The "rules" in PA must not be quite the same as in MA. Among other things, in PA it is illegal to track a wounded animal across property lines, without permission of the landowner. Ohio is the same. Huge lawsuit over a state record non-typical taken in Greene County a few years ago. The wounded trophy ran into, and expired on, a parcel the hunter did not have permission to be on. Went to court and the landowner won. 

I do have a reciprocal agreement with most of the neighbors. All I ask is a phone call to let me know what is going on. Each has my number and I have talked to all of them on multiple occasions. 

With the above being said, I do instruct our guests to not hunt property lines.


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## smokechase II

*Ethics*

In South Carolina baiting is common.
Some hunters will put out corn in small openings for a few weeks before the season starts.
They'll have a blind nearby and opening day they get at least one animal.

I don't have any problem with that on most of the East Coast.
Whitetail populations are really high.
A serious hazard on roads and in those numbers a good source of food for many.
There have been years in South Kak where 8 deer per hunter were allowed.

*************************

In Central Oregon, Mule Deer are not so prevelant.
A hard winter can destroy their populations for several years.
Most locals would never accept or respect anyone baiting with food or salt.
(The hardest thing on deer populations locally often is the winter, then vehicles and then hunters. By the way.)

************************

So I don't know everything.
Don't understand about hunting in places I've never hunted.

I would like to suggest that it is possible to vary technique and what some would call ethics from place to place.

Of Course know the local laws.


_*I would think that private property is private property.*_


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## Wortown Mick

Nope. 
Here people gotta post there property private if they dont want you on it alot of the time. Town bylaws and stuff are different but for the most part the woods is the woods here regardless of owner I think. Out of sight.. out of mind. 


And I believe there was a case of a hunter who needed to access private property to retrieve his animal. He approached the landowner the correct way but they were anti hunter and told him no way..
One.. (1) call to the enviromental police and they will escort you into and across private propety to harvest the game. It could die in their garage and the EP's would grant you access to get it.


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## ropensaddle

The p&y I killed a few years back there was no bait out.
Fact is unless the baited area is year round not many long
tined critters are gonna take daylight interest. The ranches
in Texas are different than the hill and thickets I hunt!
In thick brush with high hunting pressure the chance of
harvesting a trophy buck using a feeder is slim. It is different
according to a specific area, ten thousand acer ranch with bait
out year round and pen raised deer placed on them for video
hunts is not the same as; a forty acer parcel with high hunt 
pressure on four sides! In the later or my case a feeder is the
last place I intend to take mr big! I feed the does and figure
out the staging area the buck will be usually downwind several
hundred yards where he may be curling his lip when I release my 
string. Do I think it is hunting, you bet I do the p&y buck that
has used my forty never gave me a shot and was never seen at 
the feeder that my wife hunts in a scent proof blind I built! 
I saw him one time in legal light and she got her first deer 
and with a bow try telling her it was not a hunt


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## tree md

_"In the later or my case a feeder is the
last place I intend to take mr big! I feed the does and figure
out the staging area the buck will be usually downwind several
hundred yards where he may be curling his lip when I release my
string."_

Ditto.

You can tell the ones who have hunted where feeders are legal and those who haven't.


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## joshua mason

any of you heard of the amish buck from southern ohio.


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## PA Plumber

joshua mason said:


> any of you heard of the amish buck from southern ohio.



Yep. Saw a few pics. What a dandy.


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## joshua mason

i live in the same county it was taken. it has made hunting a pia around here. that buck has drawn in a bunch of hunters. some of the local land owners have found a way to make money off it. some of them are leasing there land during gun season to out of town hunters. makes it a little harder for a guy like myself who was born and raised here to find a place to hunt. a lady at the local walmart said she sold more tags to out of town hunters than the locals. not sure if there is any truth to that statement or not. now we have people leasing their land and alot of others do not allow hunting because of the ignorant people who have either trashed their place in the past, or drug in a crap load of people and setup drives taking alot of deer. guess im done ranting, so ill let the rest of u get back on topic.


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## ray benson

Impressive deer.
http://www.archeryhunter.com/25-amish-hunter-bags-monster-whitetail-deer-buck.html


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## goblin

Using 'bait' or feeders to familiarize deer to a spot, then removing it (30 days before or whenever), to shoot at whatever shows up later is not 'hunting'. Neither is using dogs to run game to ground, 'road shooting' game, nor shooting pen raised or ranch raised game that are paraded in front of the shooter (or the shooter taken right to them). All of these hunting 'practices' are akin to shooting fish in a barrel, and only serve to give hunters a bad name. Like it isn't difficult enough already for hunters.

'Hunting' is going out into the field/woods and using your knowledge of wildlife and nature to either stalk or spot the game, and then harvesting them in an honest-to-goodness and humane manner. It's more about the love of getting out in nature and the outdoors than it is about the success rate. Sadly, many 'hunters' have lost sight of that fact.


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## ShoerFast

Having attended Pikes Peak Outfitter Guide School (now Colorado Outdoor Adventure School) A lot was mentioned about trophy hunting. Both Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett have a place to sign stating that the animale was harvested using 'fair chase' practices. 

Bait is not one of them!!!


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## 046

I have the privilege of hunting on 120 acres of private Indian land in Pawhuska, OK. this is wild undeveloped land surrounded by thousands of similar acres. I'm the only person that has permission to hunt on this land and my guests of course. 

have seen wild packs of wolfs hunting in the moon light there. there's suppose to be big cats there, but I've never seen one. have seen signs of em... 

loads of time has been spent scouting area. I know where all the funnels and bedding areas are. took me a long time to learn scent is the most important survival tool for deer. 

no... I've never baited.. most of the time I'm stalking and/or staking out a nice spot over a funnel. Tree stands are not effective due to mountainous terrain. there's always a spot higher than where you hope to get a shot. 

the big boys gather way on the back side. waaaay away from any easily accessible areas.


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## ShoerFast

046 said:


> I have the privilege of hunting on 120 acres of private Indian land in Pawhuska, OK. this is wild undeveloped land surrounded by thousands of similar acres. I'm the only person that has permission to hunt on this land and my guests of course.
> 
> have seen wild packs of wolfs hunting in the moon light there. there's suppose to be big cats there, but I've never seen one. have seen signs of em...
> 
> loads of time has been spent scouting area. I know where all the funnels and bedding areas are. took me a long time to learn scent is the most important survival tool for deer.
> 
> no... I've never baited.. most of the time I'm stalking and/or staking out a nice spot over a funnel. Tree stands are not effective due to mountainous terrain. there's always a spot higher than where you hope to get a shot.
> 
> the big boys gather way on the back side. waaaay away from any easily accessible areas.




Now that sound like hunting! 

They say an aged Whitetail Buck can smell what you had for breakfast,,,, while your still in your truck. 

I have sat in tree stands for hundreds of hours in my life, and have watched old bucks smell my path/tracks after a few inches of snow had fell on them on the way to my stand hours before!

Here is a picture of Ted Nuggets ex Director and good friend of mine. L Willson's buck and a knife I sent him early last fall.


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> Having attended Pikes Peak Outfitter Guide School (now Colorado Outdoor Adventure School) A lot was mentioned about trophy hunting. Both Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett have a place to sign stating that the animale was harvested using 'fair chase' practices.
> 
> Bait is not one of them!!!


Look I took a pope & young no bait was used in a wilderness
area several square miles of no roads. I also have one on my
property and it would be easier to take this animal than to bait
him, he never made a daylight appearance at the feeder. It is
legal to bait here but not as productive as you must think, a 
book deer in high pressured areas coming to bait in the day,
not happening. Now on those huge ranches where deer are
fed corn from birth until they are harvested; yes! However I
don't see anything truly wrong with harvesting animals over
bait where legal, it gives you a better chance to make a good
clean kill instead of; wounding game. Of course if you think it is
too easy, I will put out the feeder and show you pictures of
the buck that still walks my woodlot and bet you wont kill
him anywhere near that feeder. Here is what he looked like
this year next year he may get senile and actually move in
the day


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> Look I took a pope & young no bait was used in a wilderness
> area several square miles of no roads. I also have one on my
> property and it would be easier to take this animal than to bait
> him, he never made a daylight appearance at the feeder. It is
> legal to bait here but not as productive as you must think, a
> book deer in high pressured areas coming to bait in the day,
> not happening. Now on those huge ranches where deer are
> fed corn from birth until they are harvested; yes! However I
> don't see anything truly wrong with harvesting animals over
> bait where legal, it gives you a better chance to make a good
> clean kill instead of; wounding game. Of course if you think it is
> too easy, I will put out the feeder and show you pictures of
> the buck that still walks my woodlot and bet you wont kill
> him anywhere near that feeder. Here is what he looked like
> this year next year he may get senile and actually move in
> the day



Hunting the 'rut' seems to get them to do some weird things, scents and calls will sometime work for them then. 

What really works in the brush country of Minnesota, and is a leagle method, is organizing drives, some areas call it 'pressing' deer. 

Basicaly there are stalkers, and there are standers, it's way harder to be a stander as your job is to get somewhere that the buck will not recognize you first. Driving after snow will tell what you have done wrong with the 'track-soup' the old bucks will leave you.

Deer drives will work fantastic if you have 'antler less' or doe-tads to fill. But hit and miss on big bucks.


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> Hunting the 'rut' seems to get them to do some weird things, scents and calls will sometime work for them then.
> 
> What really works in the brush country of Minnesota, and is a leagle method, is organizing drives, some areas call it 'pressing' deer.
> 
> Basicaly there are stalkers, and there are standers, it's way harder to be a stander as your job is to get somewhere that the buck will not recognize you first. Driving after snow will tell what you have done wrong with the 'track-soup' the old bucks will leave you.
> 
> Deer drives will work fantastic if you have 'antler less' or doe-tads to fill. But hit and miss on big bucks.



Kinda hard to place a good arrow on a running deer I prefer to play the
waiting game! I have scouted the animal I will hunt for the next year in
spring turkey season! Finding his sheds lets me know I have found his
core area and I try to set up along scrapelines in the vicinity but not
too close so I don't alert him! I usually get at least two each season
with my bow but mr big will elude me usually. In the owa####a mountain
range, a mature public land deer is a true ghost and you have to do your
homework way before season and time the hunt to avoid spooking him!


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## PA Plumber

ropensaddle said:


> Kinda hard to place a good arrow on a running deer I prefer to play the
> waiting game! I have scouted the animal I will hunt for the next year in
> spring turkey season! Finding his sheds lets me know I have found his
> core area and I try to set up along scrapelines in the vicinity but not
> too close so I don't alert him! I usually get at least two each season
> with my bow but mr big will elude me usually. In the owa####a mountain
> range, a mature public land deer is a true ghost and you have to do your
> homework way before season and time the hunt to avoid spooking him!



Yep. I have noticed; the more time and effort I put into it, the "luckier" I get.

I just got rid of alot of my "training wheels" stuff and jumped into the tradtional archery arena with both feet. If I can't hold really decent groups (out to 30 yards and 8" or less diameters), I'm going back to a compound bow. I'm out to 12 yards now, so I think it's going to work. Been shooting a couple of hundered arrows per week for the last 5 weeks.


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## ropensaddle

PA Plumber said:


> Yep. I have noticed; the more time and effort I put into it, the "luckier" I get.
> 
> I just got rid of alot of my "training wheels" stuff and jumped into the tradtional archery arena with both feet. If I can't hold really decent groups (out to 30 yards and 8" or less diameters), I'm going back to a compound bow. I'm out to 12 yards now, so I think it's going to work. Been shooting a couple of hundered arrows per week for the last 5 weeks.



Instinctive shooting is the best fo sho but practice time has to be spent
both from ground and elevated!


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## PA Plumber

ropensaddle said:


> Instinctive shooting is the best fo sho but practice time has to be spent
> both from ground and elevated!



I think we are "morphing" this thread a tad... 

I have been shooting from treestand elevation a few times, but I think for now, at least, I need to get the basics from off the ground.

My goal is to have those 8" groups consistently by the middle of summer. If not, then back to training wheels it is!!

I had every intention of getting a Mathews bow this winter, but had a couple of recurves given to me by my neighbor. Put on some new strings and found I really enjoyed it. Sold my compound, arrows, field points, and broadheads to my bro in law and bought a preowned Great Plains Takedown Recurve off of a contact through Craigslist.

You're right Rope, this gig takes tons of practice. Shot over 200 arrows today. Up to 15 yards I'm getting lots of "touchers."


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> Instinctive shooting is the best fo sho but practice time has to be spent
> both from ground and elevated!



Yup!

My Mother shot on a league in 1965, I shot some then but did not get my own bow till 1973. 

But never really got accurate or should say 'fair' till the mid 90's when I bought a book called 'Why We Miss' by Milan E. ELOTT

In the book it brakes down the total thought processes from knocking an arrow till it comes out the back-side of the target!


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## ropensaddle

PA Plumber said:


> I think we are "morphing" this thread a tad...
> 
> I have been shooting from treestand elevation a few times, but I think for now, at least, I need to get the basics from off the ground.
> 
> My goal is to have those 8" groups consistently by the middle of summer. If not, then back to training wheels it is!!
> 
> I had every intention of getting a Mathews bow this winter, but had a couple of recurves given to me by my neighbor. Put on some new strings and found I really enjoyed it. Sold my compound, arrows, field points, and broadheads to my bro in law and bought a preowned Great Plains Takedown Recurve off of a contact through Craigslist.
> 
> You're right Rope, this gig takes tons of practice. Shot over 200 arrows today. Up to 15 yards I'm getting lots of "touchers."



One thing that I promise will help is more time spent on form.
Have someone video you on each shot take less shots but put
more urgency into each! My wife filmed me in a slump I got into
and caught me peeking. If you can see what you are doing it really
makes a differance. Just shooting helps but if you are not truly working
on form each shot it becomes practicing bad habits! I would rather
shoot five arrows correct than a thousand wrong and bad habits occur
from stress, shoot less work on form and concentration and when you feel
it in your shoulders stop.


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## PA Plumber

I do have a 45 lb bear recurve I have used to get in shape/form for the heavier Great Plains bow.

It took 3 1/2 weeks with the Bear, before I could draw and release the Great Plains smoothly.

I still shoot the lighter bow once a week to work on form explicitly. I am just now starting to group the heavier bow as well at the lighter one.


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## ropensaddle

PA Plumber said:


> I do have a 45 lb bear recurve I have used to get in shape/form for the heavier Great Plains bow.
> 
> It took 3 1/2 weeks with the Bear, before I could draw and release the Great Plains smoothly.
> 
> I still shoot the lighter bow once a week to work on form explicitly. I am just now starting to group the heavier bow as well at the lighter one.



I was trying to sight down the string until I talked with a guy
who shot instinctive, who said just pick out a spot and concentrait
on it and only it and don't worry if you miss at first, your eye will
eventually correct it and make the arrow and extension of your arm!


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## PA Plumber

Here are a few pics of the Great Plains takedown recurve.


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## rahtreelimbs

The greatest fullfillment comes from working your azz off to get the deer. From working up your reloads to scouting the area to be hunted to the hunt itself. 

What has been described in the opening post is way too easy and anticlimatic for me!!!


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## 046

speaking of working your azz off... when I shoot a deer waaaay in the back side. gotta drag the deer out 1/2 mile+, a good chunk of it up hill...


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## ropensaddle

Anyone ever think of using a spear? I mean several I have taken with me bow, I feel; I could have speared! If ya get to thinking it is too easy with a gun, pick up a bow and after thirty with a bow; I am now thinking a spear may be a sporting change :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Erick

Hey Rope, if you want a real challenge next season try jumping out of the tree on their backs with your knife...... If your real good you can grab him by the antlers and steer with one hand while your cutting with the other.

If you time it just right you can get'em to fall right beside the truck.... no dragging required. 


Once you get the hang of it and you get a few under yer belt the easy way you can move up to the way most of the ol'timers around here do it and try it with a hammer.


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## ropensaddle

Erick said:


> Hey Rope, if you want a real challenge next season try jumping out of the tree on their backs with your knife...... If your real good you can grab him by the antlers and steer with one hand while your cutting with the other.
> 
> If you time it just right you can get'em to fall right beside the truck.... no dragging required.
> 
> 
> Once you get the hang of it and you get a few under yer belt the easy way you can move up to the way most of the ol'timers around here do it and try it with a hammer.



Done the hammer found it too easy! Now the knife thing is how we take
black bears, leather jackets and a Arkansas toothpic! I don't think I want
an antler poked through me though so bow or spear.


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## ShoerFast

ropensaddle said:


> Anyone ever think of using a spear? I mean several I have taken with me bow, I feel; I could have speared! If ya get to thinking it is too easy with a gun, pick up a bow and after thirty with a bow; I am now thinking a spear may be a sporting change :hmm3grin2orange:



I have had a spike buck walk under my stand once, and leaning forward s l o w l y getting the bow ready in case he was being fallowed by something with more hat-rack. My arrow knock slipped off the string and stuck in the ground right next to him,,,, he didn't even look at it, just munching along!


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## ShoerFast

PA Plumber said:


> Here are a few pics of the Great Plains takedown recurve.





That is a fine looking bow PA  

How dose it shoot?

I have a Marten-Hatfield that is on it's last limb, paper-training, I needed to put the bottom limb on the top to get it to stop 'porpusing' , fine now but had it 12 years now and think it's time. 

My bow-quiver would mount right up to one like yours!


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## ropensaddle

ShoerFast said:


> I have had a spike buck walk under my stand once, and leaning forward s l o w l y getting the bow ready in case he was being fallowed by something with more hat-rack. My arrow knock slipped off the string and stuck in the ground right next to him,,,, he didn't even look at it, just munching along!



Happens I dropped one of two arrows before I got a good quiver,
thought to myself if he shows up whats the chance of two shots
on this huge 180 class I had been hunting. Well here he comes on a dead no stop walk like the big boys do, so; I followed him and released at thirty yards and he jumps and runs twenty yards closer looking down where the arrow hit the ground! I had to watch a beautiful deer ten yards in the open no arrow for several minutes until wind shifted, the buck got run over very close to where I was hunting him 13 points two droptines 25 inch spread great mass and stinking thirteen inch g2s awesome buck and I missed the shot!


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