# Extreme leaner. How would you drop it?



## CoreyB (Oct 22, 2015)

I have a lot of leaning trees. This one is one of the more extreme leans but is smaller and in the clear. Now I have dropped a few leaners but not this much. 
I usually do a plunge cut. I know it will want to split and barber chair so I was going to leave a healthy hinge.
Or would it be better to not do a hinge leave a top strap so it will split but slow the drop. And trigger from the bottom? 
What are your thoughts?


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## audible fart (Oct 22, 2015)

I would just steer left as i drove under it and wait for a storm to bring it down.


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## cantoo (Oct 22, 2015)

I would cut a small mouth and cut it assuming it will barber at any second. Cut slowly and pretend you are a boy scout. Be Prepared.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Oct 22, 2015)

If all I had was a saw, I'd just cut from the bottom until I felt the bar starting to get pinched, then go from the top.

Several I've cut like that the whole root wad was up in the air and once the tree was cut the roots came slamming back down in the hole, so be careful about that.


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## Whitespider (Oct 22, 2015)

ValleyFirewood said:


> *If all I had was a saw, I'd just cut from the bottom until I felt the bar starting to get pinched, then go from the top.*


Yep... a leaner like that would be dropped with a cut more resembling a bucking cut than a felling cut.
*


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## CoreyB (Oct 22, 2015)

audible fart said:


> I would just steer left as i drove under it and wait for a storm to bring it down.View attachment 455316


I would just leave it but we have to many youngsters running around on the trails. And I have noticed it leaning a bit more from last winter so it is only a matter of time I would just hate for anyone to be around when it does. 
@vallyfirewood good advice I will keep an eye out for a spring loaded root ball


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## CoreyB (Oct 22, 2015)

Whitespider said:


> Yep... a leaner like that would be dropped with a cut more resembling a bucking cut than a felling cut.
> *


Maybe a dove tail cut


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## Philbert (Oct 22, 2015)

Depending on the height and diameter of the tree, you might take some of the weight off the top first with a pole saw. This will reduce some of the forces leading to a barber chair.

Philbert


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## farmer steve (Oct 22, 2015)

possibly pull it over.hard to say how i would try and cut that , i hhave pushed a few to the ground with the bucket on the tractor. be safe whatever you decide.


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## bitzer (Oct 22, 2015)

Randy beat me to it. Buck off the far side. Under buck a touch on near side. Then top down. Won't be pretty but yer not making logs I bet. Stand on the uphill side to finish. Long bar and big saw. Just did one like that this morn. Saved the logs out too.

Top or not it will split out on ya if not done right.

A healthy hinge is more prone to chair btw. You need to remove the compression wood.


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## TMFARM 2009 (Oct 22, 2015)

I'd top it out then just drop the log.
Undercut first then top cut.
Drop the entire top out and then process at will.


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## unclemoustache (Oct 22, 2015)

Even if it does barber chair, it's so far over it's not as likely to hit you. Still, I'd wrap a chain around it anyway before you cut.


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 23, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> Even if it does barber chair, it's so far over it's not as likely to hit you. Still, I'd wrap a chain around it anyway before you cut.



Yep, except I now use one of those ratcheting tie down straps. Better than chain (I used to use that) as they can be tightened. Last one I used I had to cut the strap to get it off. Only lost a few feet of the strap.

Harry K


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## Fred Wright (Oct 23, 2015)

Wrap a stout strap around the trunk above your planned cut to prevent a chair. Cut a quarter to a third deep notch underneath first, minding that you don't get a pinch. Finish with top (back) cut and it should drop clean.

A good, clear escape route is essential with heavy leaners. The tree will hit the ground sooner and may spring back or roll.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 23, 2015)

I would just cut it down like normal with the lean ,if worried about chairing ,nip the sides with a coos bay .


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 23, 2015)

am I the only one thinking he should wedge it over the other way? ...I think somewhere around 14 large wedges would do the trick?


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## CoreyB (Oct 23, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I would just cut it down like normal with the lean ,if worried about chairing ,nip the sides with a coos bay .


I am not familiar with a coos bay cut. Do you have a link to a video or a tutorial / example of it?
Thanks


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## hardpan (Oct 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Randy beat me to it. Buck off the far side. Under buck a touch on near side. Then top down. Won't be pretty but yer not making logs I bet. Stand on the uphill side to finish. Long bar and big saw. Just did one like that this morn. Saved the logs out too.
> 
> Top or not it will split out on ya if not done right.
> 
> A healthy hinge is more prone to chair btw. You need to remove the compression wood.



Undercut then backcut like a limb? If it had half that much lean would you notch, bore in behind hinge, and cut out to the back, maybe leave a trigger? No?


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 23, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> I am not familiar with a coos bay cut. Do you have a link to a video or a tutorial / example of it?
> Thanks


here is a demo log of a leaning alder to show how the hinge still works without splitting the back out ,start with a face cut ,put in the side triangle cuts ,then go through the tip of the triangle with traditional back cut ,cutting the sides relieves pressure in the tree ,minimizing a chair ,this little alder was leaning about like your tree ,i recommend a longer bar to keep your body and head away from the tree ,it could possibly chair still .in the back cut when it starts to make noise popping ,time to get out of the way .it normally falls pretty slow with this method .you can see how the holding wood went over slow by the way it ripped the guts out in the fall .


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## CoreyB (Oct 23, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> here is a demo log of a leaning alder to show how the hinge still works without splitting the back out ,start with a face cut ,put in the side triangle cuts ,then go through the tip of the triangle with traditional back cut ,cutting the sides relieves pressure in the tree ,minimizing a chair ,this little alder was leaning about like your tree ,i recommend a longer bar to keep your body and head away from the tree ,it could possibly chair still .in the back cut when it starts to make noise popping ,time to get out of the way .it normally falls pretty slow with this method .you can see how the holding wood went over slow by the way it ripped the guts out in the fall .View attachment 455500
> View attachment 455501
> View attachment 455502



That is a great explanation! Thank you for sharing this.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 23, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> That is a great explanation! Thank you for sharing this.


I recommend trying it on some practice trees first ,to get a feel of lining up the corners as good as you can ,if i am at a weird angle ,i sometimes use my bar tip and cut lines in just the bark where i want my cuts .


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 23, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> am I the only one thinking he should wedge it over the other way? ...I think somewhere around 14 large wedges would do the trick?



Add a sloping back cut and it's a sure thing!


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## wampum (Oct 23, 2015)

It looks like the trunk is wide enough to allow first a small cut or wedge on the bottom.Then go up about an inch or two above that wedge and bore your bar straight through,right above your bottom cut an inch or two. Once you are bored through just cut up towards the top. The tree will stay in tack until the saw cuts its way out of the trunk.


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## bitzer (Oct 23, 2015)

wampum said:


> It looks like the trunk is wide enough to allow first a small cut or wedge on the bottom.Then go up about an inch or two above that wedge and bore your bar straight through,right above your bottom cut an inch or two. Once you are bored through just cut up towards the top. The tree will stay in tack until the saw cuts its way out of the trunk.


Thats a good way to get yer saw smashed.


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## unclemoustache (Oct 23, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> Yep, except I now use one of those ratcheting tie down straps. Better than chain (I used to use that) as they can be tightened. Last one I used I had to cut the strap to get it off. Only lost a few feet of the strap.
> 
> Harry K



Do you think the ratchet straps have enough strength for larger trees? There is a lot of force and lever action going on there - I would think a strap would break a lot easier than a chain. I suppose if you have a good long one and wrap it a few times it'd be fine, though. But this is just theory for me - I've never even dropped a leaner.


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## Gologit (Oct 23, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Randy beat me to it. Buck off the far side. Under buck a touch on near side. Then top down. Won't be pretty but yer not making logs I bet. Stand on the uphill side to finish. Long bar and big saw. Just did one like that this morn. Saved the logs out too.
> 
> Top or not it will split out on ya if not done right.
> 
> A healthy hinge is more prone to chair btw. You need to remove the compression wood.



Best advice yet.


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## OldJack (Oct 23, 2015)

A 4" premium loading strap is about as strong as 3/8" transport chain with a WLL (working load limit) of 6600 lb. I don't know how those straps behave when they break, but a chain is bloody dangerous.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 23, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> Add a sloping back cut and it's a sure thing!


GOOD IDEA!!
how the hell did I not think of that?
...do as the turkey recommended...sloping back cut...if its a no go then wedge it over...I would bring 16 just incase 14 just isn't enough


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 24, 2015)

unclemoustache said:


> Do you think the ratchet straps have enough strength for larger trees? There is a lot of force and lever action going on there - I would think a strap would break a lot easier than a chain. I suppose if you have a good long one and wrap it a few times it'd be fine, though. But this is just theory for me - I've never even dropped a leaner.


The rated breaking strength on those things is awesome. The one I had to cut the strap on was over 3' diameter, tried to barber chair but couldn't. Strap so tight I couldn't budge it. 

Harry K


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## haveawoody (Oct 24, 2015)

Me for that leaner would be the perfect time to fire up the pole saw.
Stand uphill about 10ft away and go nuts with the pole saw and watch as the pressure splits the trunk at some point.
Your limited to pole saw bar length though, cutting a 3ft tree with a 1ft bar will just make for a very unhappy tree LOL

Much safer than having to wrap the tree and be anywhere near it to cut.


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## Dalmatian90 (Oct 24, 2015)

Remember, the key safety item with the strap is the ratchet is just there to hold it in place -- you want to wrap the strap itself around the trunk several times so if the tree tries to barber chair, the strap is tightening against itself and not relying on the ratchet to hold it together. And we're talking straps you'd use to secure loads to tractor trailers, not kayaks to your car roof. I know *how* to do it, but darn tough to describe in words.

Guess I look at the one and I'm concerned but not worried -- clear good escape paths on the up hill side so you can step back if you see it start to act hinky. Even if the tree barber chairs it's not going to do a back flip, it's going to fall on the trail side. It's not like a moderate leaner that could rotate around and land anywhere around the base when and if it fell, or catch you as it swings up.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 24, 2015)

The tree is obviously lodged into another, or it would have fallen on its own. One simple backcut with a fast saw should bring it down.


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## Ironworker (Oct 24, 2015)

wampum said:


> It looks like the trunk is wide enough to allow first a small cut or wedge on the bottom.Then go up about an inch or two above that wedge and bore your bar straight through,right above your bottom cut an inch or two. Once you are bored through just cut up towards the top. The tree will stay in tack until the saw cuts its way out of the trunk.


And if you choose this method make sure you have an extra saw and that your medical is paid up.


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## hardpan (Oct 24, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Best advice yet.



That clinches it for me, you and bitzer on the same page, bottom buck the compression wood then top buck the back cut just like a limb. Of course remembering there are no guarantees and anything can happen. Gotta have a good plan first. Thanks.

Off topic now. Keeping in mind our discussion about pine pitch wood I have a watchful eye and have found some in the form of pine roots from a stump I recently dug up. I have amazed friends when I throw a piece on the campfire. Sure increases the circle diameter of the crowd around the fire. LOL


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## square1 (Oct 24, 2015)

Leave it, there's room to reroute the trail to the right of the tree


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## CoreyB (Oct 24, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> The tree is obviously lodged into another, or it would have fallen on its own. One simple backcut with a fast saw should bring it down.


No it is not leaning on anything. Just grew sideways. 


Ironworker said:


> And if you choose this method make sure you have an extra saw and that your medical is paid up.


Really! I must be missing something because that is how I first thought to do it was with a plunge cut leaving a trigger at back. I am going to go play with a coos bay cut on some other trees this afternoon to see how I like it.


square1 said:


> Leave it, there's room to reroute the trail to the right of the tree


I think I might do that for right now. 
I feel I should take some of this info and look a little deeper.
I would rather be safe.


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## Ironworker (Oct 24, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> No it is not leaning on anything. Just grew sideways.
> 
> Really! I must be missing something because that is how I first thought to do it was with a plunge cut leaving a trigger at back. I am going to go play with a coos bay cut on some other trees this afternoon to see how I like it.
> 
> ...


I have very little expierience taken down trees but I I've dropped a few leaners and they've always reacted differently, and cutting with an upward stroke seems very dangerous. Either way take your time and think it through.


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## unclemoustache (Oct 24, 2015)

Dalmatian90 said:


> And we're talking straps you'd use to secure loads to tractor trailers, not kayaks to your car roof.




Ahh, that makes all the difference! I was thinking the smaller ones. Thanks.


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## ReggieT (Oct 24, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> Add a sloping back cut and it's a sure thing!


Wow...almost the same cut made famous by the infamous, "Hillbilly Redneck"...except his was always a slopping back-cut!


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 24, 2015)

Dalmatian90 said:


> And we're talking straps you'd use to secure loads to tractor trailers, not kayaks to your car roof


what if I use those small straps to secure my kayak to a tractor trailer? will they work then?
or what if I use 4" tractor trailer straps to hold my kayak to my car, will they not work then?
please let me know...because I have no friggin idea


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## wampum (Oct 24, 2015)

I found this sassafras leaner out back,as you can see it is very dead. I chose to put a wedge about 4 feet up,because it was not decayed there.Then I made a plunge cut just behind and above the wedge.Then I cut towards the top side of the trunk. It simply falls off with no problem. I was taught this cut about 40 years ago by an old logger that has since passed away.I have cleared river bottoms and have literally cut dozens of trees like this,never had an accident,injury or saw mishap.Hope these pics help.


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## CoreyB (Oct 24, 2015)

wampum said:


> I found this sassafras leaner out back,as you can see it is very dead. I chose to put a wedge about 4 feet up,because it was not decayed there.Then I made a plunge cut just behind and above the wedge.Then I cut towards the top side of the trunk. It simply falls off with no problem. I was taught this cut about 40 years ago by an old logger that has since passed away.I have cleared river bottoms and have literally cut dozens of trees like this,never had an accident,injury or saw mishap.Hope these pics help.View attachment 455784
> View attachment 455788
> View attachment 455789
> View attachment 455790
> ...


Well we all know why that tree went over with out any trouble. You where using a dolmar. Trees fear for their life and just fall over and play dead when ever they see a dolmar.
All joking aside. 
That is a neat cut. I have a bunch of smaller trees to practice on. I will be checking this out for sure.


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## wampum (Oct 24, 2015)

Dolmars are all I use anymore,that 7900 is ported and is one nice saw. Corey the big thing here is to always respect any tree you cut.Any tree can cause you problems always stay alert.Good luck,have fun and stay safe.


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## woodchipper95 (Oct 24, 2015)

I would plunge cut, but have a large hinge so it slowly lowers down.


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## Odog (Oct 25, 2015)

This is the perfect tree for my method!! Drill a 2" hole at a 45 degree angle into the base. Get a 1 1/2" piece of pvc pipe, 6" long cap one end, drill a 1/8" hole in the cap for the other end. Fill the pipe solidly with gunpowder, cap the pipe, insert cannon fuse. Now insert pipe into hole in base of the tree, pack gravel on top of the pipe, light the fuse and run. Presto!! No more leaner


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## Zeus103363 (Oct 25, 2015)

Last tree I cut like that was a 20" pin oak. I just notched the underside about a 1/4 of the way through. Then I have a bout a 2" hinge except I plunge cut straight behind the hinge and cut from the middle upwards. The tree leaned down hard the rest of the way down when I finished the cut out the top and as soon as the top hit the ground the butt end fell free and hit the ground.


Thanks


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 25, 2015)

The tree in question must have a very strong root system to be still leaning at that angle.
I'd do 25 degree sloping undercut and backcut with no dutchman to mitigate the weight and speed of fall with a fast saw.
If done right there is nil to no chance of chairing, but you may get some butt shatter.


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## Big_Wood (Oct 25, 2015)

shallow undercut, bore in sinching up the holding wood thin, then sinch up the back cut leaving a strap to cut below. a guy who practices trying to slow a heavy leaner down with a thick hinge is gonna learn what a barber chair is real quick LOL that energy has to go somewhere and it will end up being released by the hinge breaking, strap cut, or blowing out the back right in a guys face. the cuts done in that tree surely would work but man that is one ugly stump. there are alot of stumps like that all over haynes junction up in the yukon. i have no idea who the cull was who did them LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 25, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> shallow undercut, bore in sinching up the holding wood thin, then sinch up the back cut leaving a strap to cut below. a guy who practices trying to slow a heavy leaner down with a thick hinge is gonna learn what a barber chair is real quick LOL that energy has to go somewhere and it will end up being released by the hinge breaking, strap cut, or blowing out the back right in a guys face. the cuts done in that tree surely would work but man that is one ugly stump. there are alot of stumps like that all over haynes junction up in the yukon. i have no idea who the cull was who did them LOL


Lol, just yesterday I stumped jumped over 500 trees, with the largest being 6" dia. Thats 100 stems/hr.
Now I go back today and burn it all.
I'm too darn fast for my own good and should charge 100$ an hr., instead of 50$


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## svk (Oct 26, 2015)

Odog said:


> This is the perfect tree for my method!! Drill a 2" hole at a 45 degree angle into the base. Get a 1 1/2" piece of pvc pipe, 6" long cap one end, drill a 1/8" hole in the cap for the other end. Fill the pipe solidly with gunpowder, cap the pipe, insert cannon fuse. Now insert pipe into hole in base of the tree, pack gravel on top of the pipe, light the fuse and run. Presto!! No more leaner


Tannerite would work too.


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## KiwiBro (Oct 26, 2015)

Did someone say leaner?


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## bitzer (Oct 27, 2015)

woodchipper95 said:


> I would plunge cut, but have a large hinge so it slowly lowers down.


You mean chairs?


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## bitzer (Oct 27, 2015)

The guys who want to bore this thing must not like their saws.


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## CoreyB (Oct 27, 2015)

Would you mind going into details?


bitzer said:


> The guys who want to bore this thing must not like their saws.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 27, 2015)




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## Philbert (Oct 27, 2015)

One of those right angle saws for cutting square corners?

Philbert


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## CoreyB (Oct 27, 2015)

Ok but I thought you are supposed to do a bore or plunge to keep it from barber chairing. It is hickory and they really like to do that. 
So is it the consensus that in this circumstance it is better for a barber chair then a bore cut?


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## Zeus103363 (Oct 27, 2015)

I think I would put a ratchet strap around the tree about 2 foot above where you are gonna cut. Get it as tight as you can. Cut a notch on the side facing the ground, give it about a 2" of hinge, plunge cut straight behind the point of the notch, and cut upwards and out the top. Be ready to move as soon as the saw cuts through on the top side as that tree is coming down. I mite even abandon the saw if pinched after the final cut. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk


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## KiwiBro (Oct 27, 2015)

Coos coos c'choo


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 28, 2015)

I heard once where chains and straps belong.........


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## TermiteBuffet (Oct 28, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I heard once where chains and straps belong.........


Oooo, oooo I know the answer to this one ......

Pedal Tractor Loggin'


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## CoreyB (Oct 28, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> I heard once where chains and straps belong.........


Wait I thought it was whips and chains or is it straps and whips. Or..... yep now I am just showing how boring my life has been.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 28, 2015)

Well the only chain you need is the one whippin around your bar,as for the straps you are on your own on that part of the riddle.


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## bitzer (Oct 28, 2015)

Zeus103363 said:


> I think I would put a ratchet strap around the tree about 2 foot above where you are gonna cut. Get it as tight as you can. Cut a notch on the side facing the ground, give it about a 2" of hinge, plunge cut straight behind the point of the notch, and cut upwards and out the top. Be ready to move as soon as the saw cuts through on the top side as that tree is coming down. I mite even abandon the saw if pinched after the final cut.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk


You will never have time to cut thru to the back. Dead saw.


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## bitzer (Oct 28, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> Ok but I thought you are supposed to do a bore or plunge to keep it from barber chairing. It is hickory and they really like to do that.
> So is it the consensus that in this circumstance it is better for a barber chair then a bore cut?


You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.


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## bitzer (Oct 28, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


>


Yep


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## Philbert (Oct 28, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it.


Thanks for that explanation. Compression wood being part of the bore cut helps explain how a bar might get pinched.

Philbert


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## CoreyB (Oct 28, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.



That is a great and very clear explanation!
Thank you for taking the time to explain it and share your valuable information.


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 28, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.



The devil is in the details. Jusst how do you determine how much compression wood you can remove before sticking the saw. For the tree under discussion it ain't a gonna be very much!!

Harry K


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## bitzer (Oct 28, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> The devil is in the details. Jusst how do you determine how much compression wood you can remove before sticking the saw. For the tree under discussion it ain't a gonna be very much!!
> 
> Harry K


You would be surprised. Bore the heart from the face. Then cut from behind the hinge to the back on both sides. You have to watch the second side cuz it might sit on yer tip then. You have to feel it. If it will go before getting to the other side cut as much off as you can from the side you're on and work over to the other side til it goes.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 28, 2015)

Sloping, not sloppy undercuts are one way to deal with leaners under 16"
The sloping undercut cuts the weight of the lean in half and swings the tree at the angle of the undercut.
It's all pointless if you leave an unintentional dutchman or your saw is so slow it can't get out of it's own way.
I chopped down this mighty spruce with an 024 Super I built today out of an 026.


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## CoreyB (Oct 29, 2015)

I thought I would add a couple of videos I fond on the subject. 
So this way is bad? And should not be done?


Here is one that I think is showing the coos bay and another that I do not know if has been brought up.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 29, 2015)

at this rate it will die and fall on its own...just cut the damn thing!


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 29, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> at this rate it will die and fall on its own...just cut the damn thing!


Now if he went and did that this wicked cool thread would be over.


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## hardpan (Oct 29, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You would be surprised. Bore the heart from the face. Then cut from behind the hinge to the back on both sides. You have to watch the second side cuz it might sit on yer tip then. You have to feel it. If it will go before getting to the other side cut as much off as you can from the side you're on and work over to the other side til it goes.



Thanks for your instruction and patience. It is a safe bet to say you have a large but silent fan base here. Many of us are a "grasshopper" watching a master. I, for one, am surprised to learn how much compression wood is actually on the back side of the hinge of a hard leaner. For some reason I erroneously assumed the hinge was the dividing line between compression and tension wood on an extreme leaner.


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## Marshy (Oct 29, 2015)

The actual spliting of the fibers when it chairs is the line where the compression and tension wood meet, its the highest point sheer force. Just thought I would throw that in there.


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## hardpan (Oct 29, 2015)

Marshy said:


> The actual spliting of the fibers when it chairs is the line where the compression and tension wood meet, its the highest point sheer force. Just thought I would throw that in there.



OK that is logical. I wonder how close to the center of the stem that would be? Does that point move as the lean increases? Why does cutting the heart out prevent a chair? I am not doubting anybody, just trying to understand and predict it better.


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## Marshy (Oct 29, 2015)

The plane between compression and tension will always be half the cross sectional area regardless of lean. Only the forces and stress increase with more lean. As previously stated, that plane right where compression turns to tension is where the highest shear force is generated. Once you cut into the trunk of the tree to make your face cut the plane moves away from your cut because there is less cross sectional area and it will always normalize to the shape of the cross section. This also causes more stress because the same load is now carried on a smaller cross sectional area (hence why a shallow face is important). In theory that plane is where the wood will fail but because trees are non-uniform and can have defects its possible they wont fail exactly where the shear plane is. Remember, its only theory and assumes perfect condition unlike the real world.




Cutting out the center with a bore cut will lower the stress on the fibers. Take the image above (c) for example. The dotted red line is the center line of the cross sectional area, where shear is the highest. Cut the heart out and shear is nearly removed at the peak.

This is all based on bending stress and it applies to all materials.


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## bitzer (Oct 29, 2015)

Theory is a good thing and I am constantly thinking of new cuts and ways to cut. Compression wood can also become tension wood and vice versa. I will bet the tree in question would still pinch 3/4 of the way back. Think of it this way. How far would you have to cut before the tree exploded off the stump if you just started backcutting it? I bet inches and it will chair from there. Also when you remove wood from the face the tree will lean ahead. Different fibers will compress and tense. The line of compression and tension moves back.

Removing the heart wood removes more compression wood. A tree can still split its sides when you remove the heart, but won't chair.

This was all learned the hard way.


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## bitzer (Oct 29, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Thanks for your instruction and patience. It is a safe bet to say you have a large but silent fan base here. Many of us are a "grasshopper" watching a master. I, for one, am surprised to learn how much compression wood is actually on the back side of the hinge of a hard leaner. For some reason I erroneously assumed the hinge was the dividing line between compression and tension wood on an extreme leaner.


Thank you. I'm just trying to pass on what I've learned and been lucky to walk away from.


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## JeffHK454 (Oct 29, 2015)

You can perform any magical cut you want on that tree..gravity is controlling where it goes.


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## CoreyB (Oct 29, 2015)

JeffHK454 said:


> You can perform any magical cut you want on that tree..gravity is controlling where it goes.


That is very true.
I just want to make sure gravity and I are on the same page.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 29, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> That is very true.
> I just want to make sure gravity and I are on the same page.


well if you are unsure on the gravity part...its always pulling down...unless you are cutting standing on your head you should not be too confused


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## Philbert (Oct 29, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> well if you are unsure on the gravity part...its always pulling down...


Let's get the Australians to chime in on that. . . 

Philbert


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## bitzer (Oct 29, 2015)

JeffHK454 said:


> You can perform any magical cut you want on that tree..gravity is controlling where it goes.


Trying not to have the tree blow up in your face is the point here. Gravity is just one of the factors, not the solution. No one is trying to control where it goes with magical cuts. Just trying to cut it up safely.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 29, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Trying not to have the tree blow up in your face is the point here. Gravity is just one of the factors, not the solution. No one is trying to control where it goes with magical cuts. Just trying to cut it up safely.


throw a chain around it...done...was one of the first comments
its 1 tree, hes not doing this professionally, therefore not going to be best as doing the cuts necessary to bring it down with out something holding the tree together...


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 29, 2015)

Chains and binders work fine, but only used them when dealing with a valuable tree who's butt I didn't want to shatter.
Dealing with leaners is mostly about removing as much wood first without getting pinched or chairing the tree.
Plunge cutting leaners is mostly reserved for trees over 16". Reducing the diameter of the tree by cutting ears is another way of dealing with leaners. 
In the final analysis, it all about mechanics and cheating gravity all at the right time.


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## Marshy (Oct 29, 2015)

Probably be as simple as a shallow open face cut and normal back cut. Snipe the sap wood real shallow on the edges and just cut the back. It'll likely fold over and go down easy. The damn thing looks like itvgrew in this position. It doesn't look large enough to plunge cut.


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## KiwiBro (Oct 30, 2015)

No matter how good the technique, if he ain't using stihl ultra at 48:1, that sumbutch tree is going to chair, guaranteed.


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 30, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Probably be as simple as a shallow open face cut and normal back cut. Snipe the sap wood real shallow on the edges and just cut the back. It'll likely fold over and go down easy. The damn thing looks like itvgrew in this position. It doesn't look large enough to plunge cut.


You just described a coos bay cut


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## bitzer (Oct 30, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> throw a chain around it...done...was one of the first comments
> its 1 tree, hes not doing this professionally, therefore not going to be best as doing the cuts necessary to bring it down with out something holding the tree together...


Yeah yer right, trying to improve yer cutting skills is stupid.


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## bitzer (Oct 30, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Probably be as simple as a shallow open face cut and normal back cut. Snipe the sap wood real shallow on the edges and just cut the back. It'll likely fold over and go down easy. The damn thing looks like itvgrew in this position. It doesn't look large enough to plunge cut.


Probably explode like lightning.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 30, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Yeah yer right, trying to improve yer cutting skills is stupid.


on something like this...yeah it is... you don't start on the most difficult task first...you work up to it
all of this advise you give is good, but you give it as if you would be the one doing the work (with your experience/saws) no one even knows what this guy has for a saw, never mind experience...who knows, maybe he has never even cut a tree down before?
or his saw could be some turd with a chain so dull it can't even cut butter...is this the kind of saw you would want to cut a tree like this??? don't think so!
you say you have learned this stuff the hard way and lucky you haven't been hurt...this guy might not be as lucky...
put a chain on it!, then if he still wants to screw around with fancy cuts, he can with out it blowing up in his face!
he could even leave it a little loose, then he could see if it came apart during the cut...


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## Marshy (Oct 30, 2015)

I say let it split, less work to do at the end to make it into firewood.


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## hardpan (Oct 30, 2015)

Can't stop now. Some say we are over figuring this little tree. Yes but there is a lot at stake. I think it was Gologit who said experienced fallers are dying at alarming regularity due to tree accidents. 

My question for the day is "boring the heart out"? I have read it often but have never seen the dimensions and now we have Marshy who I'm guessing is an engineer (conclusion from the force vector diagrams) and bitzer who we all know is the real deal for falling trees in the real world. Let's say we have a solid 20" hard leaning tree and not interested in saving the log or donating a saw or blood to the effort. We start with an open shallow face 4" deep. We now have 16" of wood left and want to bore the heart out, starting from the center of the notch. Dimensions of the heart bore? How about 6" wide and 9" deep? 

I am not discounting a chain wrap, coos bay, basic limb cut procedure, or any other viable options and as always there are no guarantees.


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## Marshy (Oct 30, 2015)

In that size wood you described just cut your face, plunge cut from the side behind your hinge and cut your back cut from inside out. If it's a heavy leaner like this then leave a trigger. It's the smaller wood that become more complicated, like 8-10" diameter where you don't have room to plunge. Then you have to use other methods already described. There's always an alternative though and it depends on the experience of the person and what method they are most comfortable with given the situation.


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## hardpan (Oct 30, 2015)

Marshy said:


> I say let it split, less work to do at the end to make it into firewood.



Pre-split logs are fine with me but chairs, I've had a few and they scare me. Exploding stem, never been at one and don't want to.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 30, 2015)

hardpan said:


> but chairs, I've had a few and they scare me. Exploding stem, never been at one and don't want to.


but lets not throw a chain around it, to basically eliminate the risk of either


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## Marshy (Oct 30, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> but lets not throw a chain around it, to basically eliminate the risk of either


The problem is, the chain won't eliminate the risk its just a backstop or damage control for when it happens. Getting to the point skill wise for not needing the backstop is the real goal here. Personally, I've never seen anyone do such a thing or even talk about doing it until I came to this sight. Makes me wonder how common of a practice it really is. Like is this some thing professionals do or just homeowners.


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## bitzer (Oct 30, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> on something like this...yeah it is... you don't start on the most difficult task first...you work up to it
> all of this advise you give is good, but you give it as if you would be the one doing the work (with your experience/saws) no one even knows what this guy has for a saw, never mind experience...who knows, maybe he has never even cut a tree down before?
> or his saw could be some turd with a chain so dull it can't even cut butter...is this the kind of saw you would want to cut a tree like this??? don't think so!
> you say you have learned this stuff the hard way and lucky you haven't been hurt...this guy might not be as lucky...
> ...


I get your point. He did mention he has cut some leaners and he usually bores them. He asked how we would do it so he is looking for other options. When I started out I was given a saw and told put a notch here and cut here. It was a 30 second tutorial from a guy who usually backcuts everything. Then he left for the day. I had several hundred ugly and often hard leaning boxelders to cut. I learned a lot that week or two alone. That was 7-8 years before I bought a skidder and went into production logging. I've always read up on techniques, tried them, improvised, and used my own. I still do. Learning how to safely control a tree with just a saw is a good thing and there is always a learning curve. I've never chain wrapped a tree so I have no experience with that. I would think it would work until it doesn't. The guy was looking for options and didn't come across as a complete idiot to me.


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## bitzer (Oct 30, 2015)

Marshy said:


> The problem is, the chain won't eliminate the risk its just a backstop or damage control for when it happens. Getting to the point skill wise for not needing the backstop is the real goal here. Personally, I've never seen anyone do such a thing or even talk about doing it until I came to this sight. Makes me wonder how common of a practice it really is. Like is this some thing professionals do or just homeowners.


Totally agee with that. I've never heard of chain wrapping til here either. Unless it was storm damage that had to be climbed and topped first. To me it screams of amateur hour. I've seen trees shear like lightning. Collapse, explode, etc. What if it splits out beyond the chain wrap?


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## bitzer (Oct 30, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Can't stop now. Some say we are over figuring this little tree. Yes but there is a lot at stake. I think it was Gologit who said experienced fallers are dying at alarming regularity due to tree accidents.
> 
> My question for the day is "boring the heart out"? I have read it often but have never seen the dimensions and now we have Marshy who I'm guessing is an engineer (conclusion from the force vector diagrams) and bitzer who we all know is the real deal for falling trees in the real world. Let's say we have a solid 20" hard leaning tree and not interested in saving the log or donating a saw or blood to the effort. We start with an open shallow face 4" deep. We now have 16" of wood left and want to bore the heart out, starting from the center of the notch. Dimensions of the heart bore? How about 6" wide and 9" deep?
> 
> I am not discounting a chain wrap, coos bay, basic limb cut procedure, or any other viable options and as always there are no guarantees.


Go as deep with the face as you can, until it starts to pinch really. Then bore the heart in a few inches from one side of the hinge to the other. Leaving maybe 2-3" of wood on either side of the hinge. Be careful when you bore the heart too deep, for one the tree can pinch your bar. Two:if the tension wood is not great the tree could go on you. The goal here is to remove as much compression wood as possible. Then when you backcut you always start in the compression wood and move to the tension wood. I've got numbered diagrams of real trees I've cut that were leaning hard. I just need to find those pics.


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 30, 2015)

bitzer said:


> To me it screams of amateur hour


to you, thats what he is!...


bitzer said:


> I've seen trees shear like lightning. Collapse, explode, etc. What if it splits out beyond the chain wrap?


all of these things you have seen WITHOUT a chain...so putting a chain on it wont make it any worse...
what if it still blows up if he cuts it like you say?


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 30, 2015)

Marshy said:


> . Getting to the point skill wise for not needing the backstop is the real goal here





bitzer said:


> When I started out I was given a saw and told put a notch here and cut here. It was a 30 second tutorial from a guy who usually backcuts everything. Then he left for the day. I had several hundred ugly and often hard leaning boxelders to cut. I learned a lot that week or two alone


 cutting one leaner aint going to make this guy a pro...it takes practice just as you had


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## Trx250r180 (Oct 30, 2015)

Could always hire James to climb it and chunk it out ..........


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## olympyk_999 (Oct 30, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Could always hire James to climb it and chunk it out ..........


 too easy for these guys...clear a road, then hire a crane... pull it out in one shot


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## HuskStihl (Oct 30, 2015)

I doubt you'll be able to get much more than thru the bark on the bottom before you pinch u'r bar. If you don't have a spare bar/saw, I'd just bore in from the side leaving a couple inches on the top and bottom. Then just release from the top (stump side of the cut, as long a bar as possible, on u'r toes).


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## Erik B (Oct 30, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> I thought I would add a couple of videos I fond on the subject.
> So this way is bad? And should not be done?
> 
> 
> Here is one that I think is showing the coos bay and another that I do not know if has been brought up.



What is the difference between the bore cut that is shown in the first video and the humbolt cut? They seem like 2 names for the same cut.


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## CoreyB (Oct 30, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> on something like this...yeah it is... you don't start on the most difficult task first...you work up to it
> all of this advise you give is good, but you give it as if you would be the one doing the work (with your experience/saws) no one even knows what this guy has for a saw, never mind experience...who knows, maybe he has never even cut a tree down before?
> or his saw could be some turd with a chain so dull it can't even cut butter...is this the kind of saw you would want to cut a tree like this??? don't think so!
> you say you have learned this stuff the hard way and lucky you haven't been hurt...this guy might not be as lucky...
> ...


Just to clarify, I have been cutting wood sense a young boy. I am not a pro and have no delusions. 
I have had enough close calls to know that if possible a second opinion is not a bad thing.
I have cut leaners just never one to such an extreme.
The tree is only about 15 " so yes making it on the small side for a bore cut. It is still a living tree and seems to be in good health.
I refer to the bore or plunge method because we have always cut a lot of hickory and it has a bad tendency ti chair, and this is how I was taught to cut all hickory and leaners. 
As far as saws I was going to use a dolmar 6100 24" bar and new or fresh sharpened chain. I sharpen my own chains with a granberg style jig and have for some time. 
I also have an 056 super with up to a 36" bar and a little 192c with a 14" bar. I will probably leave the 192 in the shed for this one. 

I really do love all the feed back and input on this. 
I would also agree and point out I would never recommend someone with little experience to even think about cutting trees like this one. It is very dangerous and can easily kill someone if went about the wrong way. 
That is why even with my years of experience cutting down trees I wanted some experienced input to try and find the safest way possible.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2015)

If a plunge cut was used, it would be the first cut I'd put in, then a shallow undercut and a fast blast thru the backcut.
Most chairing is the result of the deadly dutchman and a slow cutting saw.


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## CoreyB (Oct 30, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> If a plunge cut was used, it would be the first cut I'd put in, then a shallow undercut and a fast blast thru the backcut.
> Most chairing is the result of the deadly dutchman and a slow cutting saw.


That is why I will use the 6100. The 056 is just big enough I am to slow and clumsy with to use it. Plus if I pinch the 6100 I can easily remove the power head. The 056 has a outboard clutch and it does not seem to help the weight or handling. 《《 a poke at a husky fan boy friend.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> That is why I will use the 6100. The 056 is just big enough I am to slow and clumsy with to use it. Plus if I pinch the 6100 I can easily remove the power head. The 056 has a outboard clutch and it does not seem to help the weight or handling. 《《 a poke at a husky fan boy friend.


You could also make your standard felling cuts 25- 35 degrees away from natural lean, which would reduce the weight of the tree and cause the tree to fall safely into the intended direction of fall. The backcut should be sawn with conviction.
If there is any knee knocking or apprehension, it is safer to drop the saw and run away, screaming like a little girl. Lol


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## hardpan (Oct 30, 2015)

Welcome Corey. Good post.


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## Philbert (Oct 30, 2015)

Erik B said:


> What is the difference between the bore cut that is shown in the first video and the humbolt cut? They seem like 2 names for the same cut.



Thought others would have jumped in on this. Sometimes there are different names for similar things, but you are mentioning 2, completely different things.

'_Humbolt_' is a type of face cut, made in the side of the tree in the direction of desired fall. There are other types of face cuts as well.

'_Bore cutting_' is done to the center of the trunk, instead of using a conventional back cut on the opposite side of the tree. There are other types of cuts (including the mentioned 'Coos Bay') which may also be used in certain situations

Some basic information may be found in these pages:
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts.html
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/special_techniques.html

More exhaustive information here:
_Professional Timber Falling_ by Douglas Dent, Paperback - 182 Pages.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Forest...ional-Timber-Falling-Book-by-Douglas-Dent.axd

Normal caveats: reading this stuff does not qualify one for using these methods, but can help you understand the differences, or what some others are talking about.

Philbert


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 30, 2015)

Sometimes additional force is required with those pesky leaners.


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## Marshy (Oct 30, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Sometimes additional force is required with those pesky leaners.View attachment 457251


Interesting body position.


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## Erik B (Oct 30, 2015)

Philbert said:


> Thought others would have jumped in on this. Sometimes there are different names for similar things, but you are mentioning 2, completely different things.
> 
> '_Humbolt_' is a type of face cut, made in the side of the tree in the direction of desired fall. There are other types of face cuts as well.
> 
> ...


I thought I saw a video some years ago on this site that had a guy doing a humbolt cut that involved a face cut followed by a bore cut behind the face and leaving some holding wood on the back. I have done this style of taking down some smaller trees, less than 12" in diameter, and it worked great. Guess I still have some studying to do on the different ways to drop trees. Mother Nature drops most of the ones I cut up for firewood.


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## Philbert (Oct 30, 2015)

Erik B said:


> I thought I saw a video some years ago on this site that had a guy doing a humbolt cut that involved a face cut followed by a bore cut behind the face . . .


You may have. I was addressing the terminology question. A Humbolt face cut can be used with a conventional back cut, and bore cutting can be used with other types of face cuts. There is also a technique taught that uses an 'open' face cut (90°) and a bore cut, so that the tree remains attached to the stump almost all of the way down for control.

Different combinations of cuts may be used for different situations, or based on your training and experience. That's one of the interesting parts of these discussions.

Philbert


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## Erik B (Oct 30, 2015)

Philbert said:


> You may have. I was addressing the terminology question. A Humbolt face cut can be used with a conventional back cut, and bore cutting can be used with other types of face cuts. There is also a technique taught that uses an 'open' face cut (90°) and a bore cut, so that the tree remains attached to the stump almost all of the way down for control.
> 
> Different combinations of cuts may be used for different situations, or based on your training and experience. That's one of the interesting parts of these discussions.
> 
> Philbert


Thanks @Philbert for the clarification. I still have lots to learn. Safety is the key thing to learn.


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## Zeus103363 (Oct 30, 2015)

bitzer said:


> You will never have time to cut thru to the back. Dead saw.


 

start chopping or rot will take over! 





. 






Thanks


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Can't stop now. Some say we are over figuring this little tree. Yes but there is a lot at stake. I think it was Gologit who said experienced fallers are dying at alarming regularity due to tree accidents.
> 
> My question for the day is "boring the heart out"? I have read it often but have never seen the dimensions and now we have Marshy who I'm guessing is an engineer (conclusion from the force vector diagrams) and bitzer who we all know is the real deal for falling trees in the real world. Let's say we have a solid 20" hard leaning tree and not interested in saving the log or donating a saw or blood to the effort. We start with an open shallow face 4" deep. We now have 16" of wood left and want to bore the heart out, starting from the center of the notch. Dimensions of the heart bore? How about 6" wide and 9" deep?
> 
> I am not discounting a chain wrap, coos bay, basic limb cut procedure, or any other viable options and as always there are no guarantees.



I see no way to "bore the heart..." without standing right under the leaner. That is one place I will not stand.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2015)

hardpan said:


> Pre-split logs are fine with me but chairs, I've had a few and they scare me. Exploding stem, never been at one and don't want to.



Two chairs for me (one was planned for "if it happens") and one exploder. the exploder was my first experience, outboard man on an old, old Mall with a 4' bar - tree was a Tamarack almost 4' DBH. Undercut, start back cut and tree sad straight down. No-one was hurt but the bar had a perfect 90 degree bend in it. It was still putting away.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2015)

olympyk_999 said:


> to you, thats what he is!...
> 
> all of these things you have seen WITHOUT a chain...so putting a chain on it wont make it any worse...
> what if it still blows up if he cuts it like you say?



Exactly. An amateur really shouldn't be fooling around with fancy cuts on a dangerous tree. Try them out on one that isn't leaning. The chain/strap is just and added safety. I have put down several hundred trees, some of the bad leaners. I do not consider myself an expert and will have a strap on any suspect tree.

Chain/strap used the same as all the other safety gear. 99% of the time not needed but when it is...

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Interesting body position.



Interesting camera position. Per the background, every tree is either a leaner or the camera is tilted and all trees are straight up. I assume the post was a joke though.

Harry K


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2015)

v v v There's only one solution v v v


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## bitzer (Oct 31, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> I see no way to "bore the heart..." without standing right under the leaner. That is one place I will not stand.
> 
> Harry K


I run a 32" bar everday and you don't need to be under the lean to bore the heart from the face unless the tree is over 4' then you have to be for the first couple inches on the far side.


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## bitzer (Oct 31, 2015)

Theres really nothing fancy about these cuts. Like a coos bay backcut. The coos bay is older than power saws. Old timers would have chopped both sides of this tree out until it went. Thats a true coos bay. No face. Boring the backcut is the real fancy cut here. If you take your time and think about it, its common sense- remove compression wood then release tension wood. Keep yer tip out of where it doesn't belong.


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## farmer steve (Oct 31, 2015)

Zeus103363 said:


> start chopping or rot will take over!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


really not a bad idea. iv'e never pinched an axe.


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## HuskStihl (Oct 31, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The guys who want to bore this thing must not like their saws.


Bitz, if you didn't try to make a face cut, could you bore out the heartwood from the side without risking u'r saw? I apparently have no touch with a saw, so when I'm limbing/topping large unsupported limbs I now bore from the side first and trigger from the top. Every time I try to get cute from the bottom I pinch. These always seem to be head high, so it's a reach anyway


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 31, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Bitz, if you didn't try to make a face cut, could you bore out the heartwood from the side without risking u'r saw? I apparently have no touch with a saw, so when I'm limbing/topping large unsupported limbs I now bore from the side first and trigger from the top. Every time I try to get cute from the bottom I pinch. These always seem to be head high, so it's a reach anyway


Jon, when dealing with 5' leaners there is lots of room for all kinds of plunging. Putting a harvester bar on an 880 comes to mind.


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## bitzer (Oct 31, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Bitz, if you didn't try to make a face cut, could you bore out the heartwood from the side without risking u'r saw? I apparently have no touch with a saw, so when I'm limbing/topping large unsupported limbs I now bore from the side first and trigger from the top. Every time I try to get cute from the bottom I pinch. These always seem to be head high, so it's a reach anyway


Clint and the good ole boys do it that way. The supporting wood in the front where the face would be keeps the tree more or less in place. Then they cut out the back or leave a strap. You cant't leave much on the front though, otherwise it will split there. With this hard of a lean (ops tree) it would be tough to do it. I am not a fan of boring as you know. I almost never do other than a heart gut, but yer just barely pokin yer tip in there. Underbuck and top buck yer limbs accordingly. You just have to read em. I still chop myself out every once in a while. Thats one reason to beat wedges with an axe versus a hammer. Trusty ole axe will get you out of many a pinch.


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## Marshy (Oct 31, 2015)

Put a grenade on that beotch and pull the pin, done!


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## HuskStihl (Oct 31, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Clint and the good ole boys do it that way. The supporting wood in the front where the face would be keeps the tree more or less in place. Then they cut out the back or leave a strap. You cant't leave much on the front though, otherwise it will split there. With this hard of a lean (ops tree) it would be tough to do it. I am not a fan of boring as you know. I almost never do other than a heart gut, but yer just barely pokin yer tip in there. Underbuck and top buck yer limbs accordingly. You just have to read em. I still chop myself out every once in a while. Thats one reason to beat wedges with an axe versus a hammer. Trusty ole axe will get you out of many a pinch.


Thanx Mang!


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Clint and the good ole boys do it that way. The supporting wood in the front where the face would be keeps the tree more or less in place. Then they cut out the back or leave a strap. You cant't leave much on the front though, otherwise it will split there. With this hard of a lean (ops tree) it would be tough to do it. I am not a fan of boring as you know. I almost never do other than a heart gut, but yer just barely pokin yer tip in there. Underbuck and top buck yer limbs accordingly. You just have to read em. I still chop myself out every once in a while. Thats one reason to beat wedges with an axe versus a hammer. Trusty ole axe will get you out of many a pinch.



My "go to" in pinches is drop the power head and grab a second saw. Last week that didn't work too well, I had both of them pinched. Had to chain up and yank the log to free the bars up.

Harry K


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## CoreyB (Oct 31, 2015)

Good news to is down. Safely and with no drama. I did get my bar stuck trying to clip the edges but grabbed Bbig Bbirtha and was able to get it out with out any issue.
Then hit the trigger and down she came .
May not be pretty but it worked. 







And my wife doing her best Vanna impression.


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## bitzer (Oct 31, 2015)

So no face then? Just bored and then cut the strap? You cut the middle from both sides? You get pinched on the side nearest the camera?


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## CoreyB (Oct 31, 2015)

I put a small face in and only bored about halfway through and then got pinched opposite side of camera trying to gust take the side out like a coos bay. I tried to just use the nose and guess I got in deep enough to pinch. Did a cut just above it with second saw then cut into the back about an inch and it released the bar. Then I finished the back cut and she went down a lot slower then expected. Started a small chair but was stopped as soon as it got into where I bored. Slick as a whistle other then pinching the nose of my bar. But I knew that was possible going into it. The compression wood was just higher then I thought. But hay it worked out great and I am sure many people will Lear a lot from this thread. 

I did not try to bore from the fave just because I had so little room I could not get the saw between the face and rhetoric ground.


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## CoreyB (Oct 31, 2015)

bitzer said:


> So no face then? Just bored and then cut the strap? You cut the middle from both sides? You get pinched on the side nearest the camera?


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## Big_Wood (Nov 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> If a plunge cut was used, it would be the first cut I'd put in, then a shallow undercut and a fast blast thru the backcut.
> Most chairing is the result of the deadly dutchman and a slow cutting saw.



you mean do the plunge cut and gypo the thing? shallow undercut taking both corners with it LOL. a guy hasn't been scared until he sees a 5' spruce chair on a real steep hill with a ladder carved in the ground with an axe going uphill for an escape route.


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## CoreyB (Nov 1, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> you mean do the plunge cut and gypo the thing? shallow undercut taking both corners with it LOL. a guy hasn't been scared until he sees a 5' spruce chair on a real steep hill with a ladder carved in the ground with an axe going uphill for an escape route.


I am glad I was not in that predicament.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 1, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> I am glad I was not in that predicament.



no worries man, just being a prick. most guys will never see that. was actually fishing for that cull bitzer LOL  please just drop the hook with the bait and leave it where you found it


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 1, 2015)

Anyone in here ever put a wedge in the cut to keep from pinching on leaner ? Or is that not manly ?


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## CoreyB (Nov 1, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Anyone in here ever put a wedge in the cut to keep from pinching on leaner ? Or is that not manly ?


Actually yes I did on this tree at the top of my bore cut. But after I had already pinched my bar on the other side. Lol


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 1, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> no worries man, just being a prick. most guys will never see that. was actually fishing for that cull bitzer LOL  please just drop the hook with the bait and leave it where you found it


Are you trying to say that Bitzer mentors Golikit? If so, it's a sorry day around the Great Lakes Region.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Are you trying to say that Bitzer mentors Golikit? If so, it's a sorry day around the Great Lakes Region.



Dude!, don't you read F&L? golickit mentors everyone, actually so does bitzer, ok nevermind


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 1, 2015)

westcoaster90 said:


> Dude!, don't you read F&L? golickit mentors everyone, actually so does bitzer, ok nevermind


Bitzer has 4 years in the bush working for some loser outfit, Golikit has two years packing wedges. You're a cull, I'm a cull, so is there some kind of reason we can't all get along?


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## Big_Wood (Nov 1, 2015)

man, i figured they had 20 years production by how they talk? the reason is talk, tiny wood, flat land, big wood, steep land. there's a difference. although i'm sitting here saying they can have all that flat land, pulp wood, piece work BS and there sitting there saying we can have all that steep slope, big rotten ugly deadly wood BS. 2 different types of work. i'm sure me working there would open my eyes and them working here would open their eyes. bottom line? we are all just a bunch of ****'n culls! LOL bitzers just top of the line cull is all. i think golickit might even be more cull then bitzer even LOL


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 1, 2015)

Pay no attention to those culls, they are a dime a dozen. Couldn't get out of their own way. Nothing worse than a lumberjack complex.


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## KiwiBro (Nov 1, 2015)

Coos coos c'choo, Gyppo Logger son, Jebus lwuvs you more than you will know.


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## bitzer (Nov 1, 2015)

Its too bad you guys don't actually make a living cutting production wood. I'm sure there is a learning curve to anywhere new. I bet I'd handle it just fine. If the place I lived in required me to pass all kinds of certs I'd pony up the dough and dam sure would be on some hillside clippn em off instead of talking about it. I sure as hell woudn't leave 1000 acres of veneer timber behind to live in small tree land either. Everything is suspect in my book. I'm sure you'll both have some witty comeback. As usual you didn't contribute **** tho. Haters guna hate right? Weird little bastards.


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## bitzer (Nov 1, 2015)

Trx250r180 said:


> Anyone in here ever put a wedge in the cut to keep from pinching on leaner ? Or is that not manly ?


I have when putting a dutchman in.


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## bitzer (Nov 1, 2015)

CoreyB said:


> I put a small face in and only bored about halfway through and then got pinched opposite side of camera trying to gust take the side out like a coos bay. I tried to just use the nose and guess I got in deep enough to pinch. Did a cut just above it with second saw then cut into the back about an inch and it released the bar. Then I finished the back cut and she went down a lot slower then expected. Started a small chair but was stopped as soon as it got into where I bored. Slick as a whistle other then pinching the nose of my bar. But I knew that was possible going into it. The compression wood was just higher then I thought. But hay it worked out great and I am sure many people will Lear a lot from this thread.
> 
> I did not try to bore from the fave just because I had so little room I could not get the saw between the face and rhetoric ground.



The saw pinched cuz you cut the same wood twice. Like you said you went too far in. Was the tree pinching your saw when you put tha face in? Usually I cut until it starts to get tight then I finish my face. My goal is always to get the tree free from the stump in these situations cuz you can end up with another dilema when its not. Like where to buck the tree so it doesn't crush you. I'm glad it stayed mostly together for you.


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## HuskStihl (Nov 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Its too bad you guys don't actually make a living cutting production wood. I'm sure there is a learning curve to anywhere new. I bet I'd handle it just fine. If the place I lived in required me to pass all kinds of certs I'd pony up the dough and dam sure would be on some hillside clippn em off instead of talking about it. I sure as hell woudn't leave 1000 acres of veneer timber behind to live in small tree land either. Everything is suspect in my book. I'm sure you'll both have some witty comeback. As usual you didn't contribute **** tho. Haters guna hate right? Weird little bastards.


Don't join their mini-NAMBLA convention Bitz!


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## bitzer (Nov 1, 2015)

HuskStihl said:


> Don't join their mini-NAMBLA convention Bitz!


Ha! Had to look that one up. No I'm one and done on this one. Threads over anyway. Tree is down. Typical of their style. Gypo has a bunch on non-sensical crap to say through-out the thread and coaster shows up when its over to talk about trees he never cut. Then they call me and Bob culls for a while. Classic. I'm surprised Oly hasn't shown up yet to just talk **** and contribute nothing. Pretty sure all these guys just need to get laid.


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## CoreyB (Nov 1, 2015)

bitzer said:


> The saw pinched cuz you cut the same wood twice. Like you said you went too far in. Was the tree pinching your saw when you put tha face in? Usually I cut until it starts to get tight then I finish my face. My goal is always to get the tree free from the stump in these situations cuz you can end up with another dilema when its not. Like where to buck the tree so it doesn't crush you. I'm glad it stayed mostly together for you.


It did not pinch on the face cut I got about 2 in deep and thought it felt like it was getting tight. It is a new saw so still learning the feel of her. To drop the the log off the stump I used a dove tail cut. It works pretty good in those situations. 
It consists of a cut on top and bottom reading the cut to see where the pressure is and an off side bore cut.
Some times I just bore in from almost the top all the way through leaving a trigger then just cut the trigger from the top. Works pretty good for me as well.


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## Big_Wood (Nov 1, 2015)

Hahahaha bitz. Just razzing you. We have something in common and that's work that we enjoy. I'll have you know to I'm qualified with the council and will be certified very soon. I have a 6 month period though. Also, I don't talk about tree's I haven't cut just so you know. Your an eastern flat lander. You have skills at walking flat land slap' cuts in to tree's. Imagine all the hazards and chain reactions you have to deal with. Now imagine those hazards and chain reactions with wood as big as what you cut in a whole morning but all in one stem. All that said, I have no doubt that you would be able to handle it............ After you were retrained. LOL no hard feelings guy. Saw the opportunity to troll you last night and that was it. Wife answering the door giving out candy so had to find something to do.  if you wanna try the coast work that's cool but get used to a troll. The ol'boys will eat you alive in camp if they sense any kind of weakness.


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## KiwiBro (Nov 1, 2015)

Gypo Logger said:


> Pay no attention to those culls, they are a dime a dozen. Couldn't get out of their own way. Nothing worse than a lumberjack complex.


Now this thread is over, what's a lumberjack complex please? Small minds want to know.


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## Philbert (Nov 1, 2015)

KiwiBro said:


> Now this thread is over, what's a lumberjack complex please? Small minds want to know.


It's a clustered group of buildings where tree cutters live, shop, do their laundry, etc. Keeps them out of the general population, where they can cause trouble . . . .

Philbert


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## hardpan (Nov 1, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> I see no way to "bore the heart..." without standing right under the leaner. That is one place I will not stand.
> 
> Harry K



I know it can be done because the pros talk about it regularly. I don't have the confidence in reading the feel or the stability of the stem. At this point I would liken it to sticking my hand in a trap with a hair trigger. LOL. No doubt bitzer and others find it to be a reliable procedure.


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## fubar2 (Nov 2, 2015)

audible fart said:


> I would just steer left as i drove under it and wait for a storm to bring it down.View attachment 455316


Your right, a self loader if I ever seen one.


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## Philbert (Nov 12, 2015)

bitzer said:


> I've never heard of chain wrapping til here either.


I never heard/thought of it either. Saw this recently in a FB post by Bailey's:


*150' Up Still 7 Ft. in Diameter*
_"The chains and binders above and below the cut are used to help avoid splitting, and a possible barberchair."_
http://www.baileysonline.com/Media/Posters/Logging/Jumbo-150-Ft-Up-Still-7-Ft-in-Diameter-Poster.axd



Philbert


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 13, 2015)

Philbert said:


> I never heard/thought of it either. Saw this recently in a FB post by Bailey's:
> View attachment 460864
> 
> *150' Up Still 7 Ft. in Diameter*
> ...



Wow! I can't even imagine the effort it takes to get that long bar leveled to begin a cut. I have problem enough with my 441 and 32" bar!


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## bitzer (Nov 13, 2015)

Philbert said:


> I never heard/thought of it either. Saw this recently in a FB post by Bailey's:
> View attachment 460864
> 
> *150' Up Still 7 Ft. in Diameter*
> ...


Redwood is a funny tree from what I understand. With all that going on I'm sure Jerry took every precaution. I can't imagine the rush on that one.


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## bitzer (Nov 13, 2015)

turnkey4099 said:


> Wow! I can't even imagine the effort it takes to get that long bar leveled to begin a cut. I have problem enough with my 441 and 32" bar!


They would have started with the smaller saw. The bar would sag too much and whip the chain off.


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## olympyk_999 (Nov 13, 2015)

Philbert said:


> I never heard/thought of it either. Saw this recently in a FB post by Bailey's:
> View attachment 460864
> 
> *150' Up Still 7 Ft. in Diameter*
> ...


"amateur hour"


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## Philbert (Nov 13, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Redwood is a funny tree . . . I'm sure Jerry took every precaution.



I read one of his books. Apparently, redwood will also shatter if it lands wrong? Not sure if those chain binders will help on that size tree either, but interesting that they are using them.

Philbert


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