# cutting roots in dirt.



## ArtB (Jun 23, 2021)

OK, I know to dig first or air spade, but getting laxy in old age. 
Removing 4 flowering cherry trees with very extensive roots, some of the roots are a foot in diameter. 
Am pulling the entire tree (some 20 in dia trunk, pic) first with winch and blocks (120,000# pull) but there is a LOT of lawn damage when roots come up so want to cut roots below surface without digging. 
Is there a clever sharpening angle to file old chains to minimize dulling in dirt? I have any number of old worn out chains, a, using them up filing down to just a 1/16" of tooth left. 

Pic note: cable and single block shown was just final pull to break off a cut root, main pull was 4 more blocks - top of stump shows wire strands where I broke my 3/4" wire rope chocker and needed a grade 80 5/8" double chin for choker. Had tired a higher attach point but snapped off the trunk. Figured it took over 100,000# to pull this puppy.


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## sean donato (Jun 23, 2021)

Short answer no, your gonna kill chains fast, due to the abrasive nature of dirt. Let alone bars and sprockets. Pretty sure a track hoe would be more beneficial for you in removing the stumps and any larger roots. Also makes clean up pretty easy.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 23, 2021)

If it isn't too rocky, a carbide chain will do pretty well in that situation


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## ArtB (Jun 23, 2021)

sean donato said:


> Short answer no, your gonna kill chains fast, due to the abrasive nature of dirt. Let alone bars and sprockets. Pretty sure a track hoe would be more beneficial for you in removing the stumps and any larger roots. Also makes clean up pretty easy.


Other 3 trees smaller (6" max dia roots) and less overall lawn damage pulling vs. digging. I do have a bobcat with backhoe would have made this tree easier, but think of the challenge <G> Tracks make a heck of a mess of lawn. 
Dug thru my box of scraps, have 4 more chains I'd already 'retired', and using a non-roller tip bar that is also from the 'scrap' pile. Did notice that I need to pull wadded grass roots from the spsrocket area every cut thought. Definitely not a nice thing to do to a saw.


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## oldfortyfive (Jun 23, 2021)

Carbide Blade in your Sawzall.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 23, 2021)

Should have just hired a stump grinder


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## jetsam (Jun 23, 2021)

A used Poulan is in the same price range as a carbide chain, and will often come with a disposable bar and an almost-new chain that has never been touched by a file.

Read up about sharpening carbide before getting a carbide chain. You need diamond to sharpen it, and if you're grinding you want to go outdoors and wear a good mask.


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## ArtB (Jun 23, 2021)

Trees are at our church, reason for removing is surface roots so bad interfered with mowers. 

One member did have an arborist look at the cherry trees, arborist did recommend grinding (and estimated bid of $2-3k to grind) , I don't have a grinder and local HD wanted near $1k for rental. 
Church has been feeding > 1000 (thousand) people a week with 40# boxes of food so both $$ and volunteer time in short supply during covid. I have a private 1/2 acre compost pile for the tree branches.

I have 4 or 5 more chain 'remnants' like this one to use and maybe sharpen a 'few' more times till no cutting edge left.


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## trains (Jun 23, 2021)

Dig where you want to cut, hose off with water to remove as much dirt as you can, and cut.
Going to be slow going no matter which path you choose.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 23, 2021)

Ok, got it, charity job. Ironically, going old school with a good sharp axe is sometimes the best way to deal with surface roots... won't dull as easily and you don't necessarily need to cut all the way through to get them to pop


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## HumBurner (Jun 24, 2021)

Dug with a mattock or pick and possibly a heavy fork, most of the roots could be had with minimal disruption to the appearance of the soil/grass. 

It's just laborious. If you can loosen the ground with the fork and find the way the roots run, it shouldn't be hard to pull 15-30 foot runs of root. 

This is how I approach poison oak/berry/vine removal.

I have a digging fork, light duty mattock, mini hand mattock, and loppers.


Good luck!


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## raster (Jun 24, 2021)

I recommend you expand your search for a reasonably priced rental stump grinder. Any other method will cause you heartache and will not do as good a job. An extra hour or two of drive time to the rental store will be well worth it. There is lots of daylight now. You can get a lot done in a 24 hour rental period.

Stump grinders are just amazing. I rented one that would dig down 48 inches.


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## sean donato (Jun 24, 2021)

raster said:


> I recommend you expand your search for a reasonably priced rental stump grinder. Any other method will cause you heartache and will not do as good a job. An extra hour or two of drive time to the rental store will be well worth it. There is lots of daylight now. You can get a lot done in a 24 hour rental period.
> 
> Stump grinders are just amazing. I rented one that would dig down 48 inches.


I'd second this. Last one I rented was a toro tracked model. Did quite a few trees at my parents, then 2 stumps at my house and 3 at my brother's. Did it all in about 6 hours from pick up till it was back on the trailer ready to head back. The rental fee was under $300.00.


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## ATH (Jun 25, 2021)

ArtB said:


> Trees are at our church, _reason for removing is surface roots so bad interfered with mowers._
> ....




Create mulch beds over the roots and plant flowers/shrubs.

You can add an inch or two of inches of loose soil over the roots without causing significant damage.

Set the mower a lot higher over the root area.


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## ArtB (Jun 25, 2021)

_Set the mower a lot higher_

LOL - I'd suggested just letting the area 'go natural'.
Pic is a root 23 feet from the tree, has been 'scalped' many times in the last 30 years.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 25, 2021)

Damn, it is starting to look the cure is worse than the disease, place is looking like a war zone... $1000 for a stump grinder is gonna look cheap by the time you do all the reclamation work.


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## medic5050 (Mar 9, 2022)

If you already have the bobcat with the backhoe attachment, I'm not sure how the tracks are going to tear up the ground anymore than what you're already doing. Maybe look at renting a stump grinder that goes on the front of the bobcat, or even just some donated plywood or OSB to lay on the grass. The only other thing I can think of is rent some track pads like landscapers use to put down on grass when they have to drive machinery across it. 
Your time has to be worth something, and the timesaving measures could very well be a savior in themselves.


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## CacaoBoy (Mar 9, 2022)

There are chainsaws designed to cut concrete, presumably they would survive contact with soil if that was an approach you wanted to take. 


https://www.stihlusa.com/products/concrete-cutters/professional-concrete-cutter/gs461/


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## gumneck (Mar 9, 2022)

ArtB said:


> _Set the mower a lot higher_
> 
> LOL - I'd suggested just letting the area 'go natural'.
> Pic is a root 23 feet from the tree, has been 'scalped' many times in the last 30 years.
> View attachment 914857


A TD9 with root rake wouldn't have tore up that much....but lets have some more pics of that S-10. My first vehicle and your paint job is intriguing me.


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## deerlakejens (Mar 9, 2022)

_Use a corded recip saw with a pruning bl*ade, I routinely cut 10-12’’ fir roots with one. They handle hitting soil way better than a chain and come in a variety of lengths.*_


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## Valpen (Mar 10, 2022)

We have been clearing some old growth pine that has grown slowly on bedrock around our cabin/cottage. It is on top of a bedrock ridge with no nutrients other than it's own needles and the water it can get when it rains. The technic we use was to winch the whole tree over to expose the clean rock. The near root system is cut out of the extended root system. Which leaves you with a tree together with the near root system to remove. It is hard work but the result is granite bedrock to walk on...

Use a decent high pressure hose with at "turbo-nozzle" to cut thru the root mat and/or clean the wood before using your saw. We would cut wheelbarrow-size chunk off the root system by "cutting" the dirt with the turbo-nozzle, 2-3" lopping shears for the smaller roots, and a chainsaw for the larger roots. I would have loved to have had a small "bobcat" to help, but all around are wild blueberry bushes that need to be undisturbed.
The roots on these very old, very dense, slow growing trees are extremely tough and sinewy. I tried a sawsall with wood blades, demolition blades, everything without efficient results. The Stihl Duro (carbide) chains are very good, but very brittle. If there is any contact with a stone fragment in the root area, the teeth just chip off the chain (the carbide cutting teeth are welded onto the chain). I now have 2 carbide chains, one with 1/4 of the teeth, and one with 7/8 of the teeth. They work very well while they last, but they are expensive.
The current solution is an old bar, and 2 old safety chains that get sharpened commercially that I keep just for root-work. To hand-file these chains after use is not worth the time IMO.


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## Stihl User (Mar 10, 2022)

ArtB said:


> OK, I know to dig first or air spade, but getting laxy in old age.
> Removing 4 flowering cherry trees with very extensive roots, some of the roots are a foot in diameter.
> Am pulling the entire tree (some 20 in dia trunk, pic) first with winch and blocks (120,000# pull) but there is a LOT of lawn damage when roots come up so want to cut roots below surface without digging.
> Is there a clever sharpening angle to file old chains to minimize dulling in dirt? I have any number of old worn out chains, a, using them up filing down to just a 1/16" of tooth left.
> ...



When necessary, I would cut roots with my chainsaw.
A. Use the smallest bar & chain per application.
B. Stihl Green Label safety chain works best as the triple hump clears dirt and helps protect the cutting tooth.
C. Use bars & chains that you were ready to discard.
D. Clear as much dirt/rocks as possible prior to making the cut.
E. If available, use garden hose to blast away and prep the cutting area.
F. Have multiple chains ready to go for this proceedure.
G. I always use this same setup when suspecting or encountering metal in trunk/log/stump.

MOST IMPORTANT: Do not use your expensive pro saw - it is a great idea to keep a low end $$$ saw for this purpose.


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## Marine5068 (Mar 13, 2022)

ATH said:


> Create mulch beds over the roots and plant flowers/shrubs.
> 
> You can add an inch or two of inches of loose soil over the roots without causing significant damage.
> 
> Set the mower a lot higher over the root area.


I would have done that when trees were living and not deal with cutting over roots at all.
Think ahead and outside the box.


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## kenmbz (Mar 13, 2022)

I used a sawzall with an agressive I think 5 TPI wood blade for oak and cherry roots.
Most were in the 4-8" range and went through about three blades over a few hours work.
Used small backhoe to expose the roots and rip out the smaller ones.
Roots had dirt squeezed between them that even a spike and hammer could not force out. 
So chain on CS would not have lasted long.


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## Robes (Mar 15, 2022)

oldfortyfive said:


> Carbide Blade in your Sawzall.


Great Idea!


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## ray benson (Mar 28, 2022)

Sawzall with 12" bi-metal blades 2-3 teeth per inch. Resharpen them with a grinder and hand file. They dull pretty fast plunging in the dirt. Keep 3 or 4 backup blades in the case.


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