# Spurs and leaning trees



## southernstyle88 (Mar 29, 2011)

quick newb question.. been cutting trees for few years but just now getting into climbing removals.. anyways im noticing alot of the trees around where im at (especially the maples) rise up about ten feet then split off into multiple sections.. you know like 3' or more diameter tree comes up then slits off into 3 or 4 leaning sections about 15'' dia. sections on a 50ft plus tree.. my question is branching off in multiple sections like they are, how do you aproach the climb? as in do you climb on top-side or bottom side or what exactly and please explain why..
thanks in advance



ms390 25'' bar
ms192t 12'' bar
ms290 20'' 18'' bar
021 14'' bar
wesspur deluxe spur kit and extra flipline, and false crotch rigging kit


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## imagineero (Mar 29, 2011)

a day watching a good climber will teach you more than a month of reading posts.

How you approach a climb on a removal mostly has to do with the nature of the removal, and its very specific to each tree. The question comes down to; how are you going to dismantle it? 

If you have room, great. The less room you have and the more obstacles, the trickier it gets. Good general rules are;

Try to have at least 2 tie in points (ie. 2 ropes on independant TIPs or one rope on an independant TIP plus flipline)

keep your two TIPs at an angle between 15~120 degrees roughly so they do offer support.

Stay on the high side of the tree when on spurs. 

Remove lower sections first.

Think about where you are going to want to land the branches before you begin. Then decide where you are going to place pulleys, and in what order. This will save you from removing a section you could have used as a lowering point. 

if you use your lowering rope tied in through two independant TIPs (either through pulleys or natural crotching) you get the benefit of having two lowering points (you can tie in from either end) and you keep your groundie clear or danger.

Shaun


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## rarefish383 (Mar 29, 2011)

That's how big Maples grow. If your question is: How do you start spiking up the tree, and what do you do when you get to the bottom of all those big branches? Don't spike up to the dead end first. Throw your climbing line through a crotch above the big branches and pull yourself up past them. Or, with your climbing line in a higher crotch, spike up as far as you can and pull yourself up past the dead end. I'll tell you what we used to do, but as my Dad used to say, "Do as I say, not as I do". We would have our climbing line snapped in on one D-ring, not rigged yet. Start spiking up the tree with a flip line. When you get to the first big limb, clip your flip line on the other D-ring, grab the big limb, swing you leg over, stand up on the limb and snap your flip line back into the trunk and continue to the top of your chosen lead and tie in. I guess it's like the balance beam in school. If it's only a foot off the ground it's easy, put it on a set of saw horses and it's hard.

I'm still basing my answers on how do you get past the first outcropping of branches, shoot a ladder up past them.

Now if your question is more of how to rig and work it: I climb the straighest lead first, or the lead I want to take out last, first. I use 120' climbing lines, and unless it's a really big, tall Maple, I tie in to the tallest lead, get a lowering line set, then pull the tail of my climbing line up and use it for a second tie in, in the top of another lead. If it's a really tall tree I use 2 climbing lines. I try to use the lowering line to pull the rest of my gear up, that way the groundie will have something to do, pull my gear up.

Hope that wasn't confusing, good luck and be carefull, Joe.


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## tree md (Mar 29, 2011)

Set your climb line in the central most leader with a big shot and throw line. Climb on that, tend your slack as you go and use your flip line/lanyard when you need to for positioning. You can swing around and work every leader that way and you don't have to worry about bypassing limbs with your lanyard. Work the central leader that you tie into last.


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## chrisdafer (Mar 29, 2011)

Exactly. Thats tree good descriptions of every thing I have been taught. As a groundie I would wonder why our climber would cut the perfect lowering crotch out of the tree first then make us struggle with every roped piece on the ground. Now when I'm in the tree I look for those perfect crotches first and develop my whole plan to make it easy for the ground guys. The quicker they get that piece chopped up the quicker their taking wraps and I'm cutting the next piece.


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## Greener (Apr 2, 2011)

As stated by others here, you want to find the highest crotch on one of the main leaders and put a throw line in it. Only secure in as high as will allow your rope to let you descend to the lowest branch on that leader/trunk. If you don't have a throw weight/line, take the time to spike climb to the highest point you can to put your climb line through it. Don't short cut this and tie in to a lower crotch just to save time because it will hinder your ability to move around the the tree. Next, descend to the lowest branch on that leader and begin to cut from the lowest branch and work upward. If you are just learning broad trees, they are tricky. Two main rules: there is high likelihood or branches getting hung up if they are not clear so you want to cut lower branches on each leader before you proceed upward (this is more of an issue with broad trees than conifers/forest trees); second, use caution when cutting branches because they are usually not horizontal but at 30-60 degree angles. Make sure you cut straight in on the undercut (bottom of branch) but not too far as it will pinch the saw. When you do the back cut (top of branch) make it even with the undercut or closer to the trunk than the end of the branch. Try to cut as far out toward the end of the branch as possible because broad tree branches tend to roll and the butt frequently moves back toward the climber-the more toward the sky the branch points the more chance of this happening. Research "jump cuts" and "slice cuts," if you have not.

Ideally, if you are able to tie in your climbing line at a very high crotch, that will enable you to swing to all or most of the lower branches on all of the leaders, this is best. If the leaders are close together, this is possible. If not, start with an outside leader, work up that one, then move to the bottom of the next one. 

Sorry for the long post, I live in oaks and maples these days and cut a conifer here and there. but My first job was a broad leaf maple with 4 leaders. Looking back, I should not be here. Feel free to ask me for clarification because it is difficult to tell you exactly how to proceed in a post without being at the site. If you send a photo, I could give you a much better idea. 

Last suggestion, you might consider trading the 390 and 290 in for a 036/361 or an 044, if you plan to do a lot of aerial tree work. Be careful and go slow at first. 
Colby


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## RacerX (Apr 2, 2011)

southernstyle88 said:


> my question is branching off in multiple sections like they are, how do you approach the climb? as in do you climb on top-side or bottom side or what exactly and please explain why..
> thanks in advance


 

The simple answer is with spurs you climb on the top of the lean not the bottom. If you climb on the bottom you'll have constant tension on your flipline and won't get very far. :msp_biggrin:


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## kator (Jun 29, 2014)

RacerX said:


> The simple answer is with spurs you climb on the top of the lean not the bottom. If you climb on the bottom you'll have constant tension on your flipline and won't get very far. :msp_biggrin:


When I tried to climb on the top of the lean the lanyard was quite loose. If you gaff-out you probably go for a ride, unless you have T.I.P to hold you.
No the bottom the lanyyard holds you better, but it easier to gaff-out.
It looks like a no win situation.


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## woodchuck357 (Jun 30, 2014)

I haven't tried them, I think they are no longer made, but these tree steps look like they could make going up a heavy leaner easier. They were called steppladder.


https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US5257677.pdf


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## TheJollyLogger (Jun 30, 2014)

Climb the high side, and just let your flipline come along. It will catch you. Just set it a little loose and walk up the tree.


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## kator (Jul 11, 2014)

Thank you guys for all your opinions.

How about dealing with this or any dead tree?








This oak had been declining for some years and last summer the leaves on the crown browned and the tree is all dead now.
I intend to climb it possibly to the top fork. While climbing I will be assesing the strenght of it, but since any tree inspection is not an exact science it still may fail under me.
I will have a safety line attached to a neighboring tree and use lanyard to climb up. Should worst happen the line would hold and I would swing away. But it only will work if I will not be attached to the dead tree with a lanyard. Otherwise I may and up like the poor guy in the linked article:
"a 28 year-old tree trimmer died when he fell 60 feet from a tree he was cutting to a gravel driveway below. He was attached by a lanyard to the branch he was trimming and, when the branch broke behind him, he fell with it. His safety line was attached to the tree trunk and, as he and the 25 foot long branch section fell, his safety line broke and he fell to the ground." (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/nj/96nj074.html).
Considering possible similar scenario I am thinking about using a self made lanyard from the rope graded up to 400 lbs, let's say. This way I can do the work, but the lanyard should fail before safety line.

What do you think about this or similar idea?
Did you ever climb a dead tree?
What was your backup?


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 11, 2014)

Well, that's a twenty minute tree. Having said that, your plan is sound, but I'd take a bigger top. The advice to get with a local climber is very good, and yes, we climb dead trees. And every one s different, and there's no substitute for having a few thousand under your belt.


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## kator (Jul 16, 2014)

Twenty minutes? It will take me twenty hours. It is a fourth tree I am climbing as an adult, and I am 50yo. I am making baby steps. Climb up, cut a limb, climb back and so forth. I feel clumsy, but inchig along. It is a great gym and something spiritual about nature. I never thought that tree climbing requires so much strength and agility.
It seems to be hard to find someone in northeast Pennsylvania willing to join me(or let me join them) either for learning an arborist work or for the recreational climbing.

...back to the tree subject. Up to uproximately one third high the wood is solid, beside some loose bark. However, higher up there was a major limb which was torn sometime ago and this is a point of major decay. It may be needed to cut right below or above this. It means cutting down a very heavy top.
What kind of cut would you do in order to reduce the jolt of the tree? Woul it be the best to make a straight facecut, so the top would snap away? I feel that making a wedge cut could cause hazard if the face wedge closed before breaking the hinge. Although the wood is now dry and somewhat brittle, so the hing should break rather quickly.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 16, 2014)

When I'm popping a top, I'll cut a very shallow face cut, just enough to make it commit, then gun right through the hinge. As far as the decay goes, you'll just have to make an assessment when you get up there. Welcome to dead tree removal.


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## kator (Jul 17, 2014)

Well, this dead tree is a challenge for a total newbie, but sailing only flat seas would be very boring.
I was short of getting there just 6 feet. What spooked me was a safety line already at 45 degree angle. The rope was pulling me to the side of the lean. I would not be able to balance myself and gaff-out. I need to get to the side of the lean anyway to do the cut without having a chainsaw between the trunk and my chest. You guys probably can balance side of the lean just with a pair of lanyards and spurs. Tommorow I will set another safety line in the opossite tree. This way the rope will counterbalance the flipping like in branch walking. Thanks for advising about the cut. I just realised that having at least small face will prevent the butt of the falling top from sliding back. Having just a higher backcut may not be enough. To be on a safe side I will make the face 90 degrees.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 17, 2014)

If your safety is pulling you to the side just slack it a little, lanyard for positioning, lifeline for backup. Get comfortable and stable.


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## kator (Jul 18, 2014)

I finally climbed to the point of intended cut. It is two thirds of total height, about 50' of the ground, 12" diameter. The top is about one quarter to one third weight of the tree. Is there a danger of collapsing the whole tree with such weight release?
The bottom of the tree is very steardy (roots unknown) and I removed all the lower limbs.
Saturday is a D day for me.


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## Chuck D (Jul 18, 2014)

If you had a rope lanyard or use your safety line wrap it around the trunk two times and that way it will create a noose around the trunk and if you fall it should tighten up!


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 18, 2014)

Nah, you'll be fine. Like I say, gun the back cut once it starts opening up.I like to cut slow, keeping the revs up until I see it opening up, then jam it til it starts to break, . Then pull the saw, kill it, and brace for the ride. What saw are you using?


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## kator (Jul 20, 2014)

Wow! Mission accomplished.
For working up the tree I have just Echo CS-301 with 10" bar. It was a bit too small for this job. The cut was not as good, as it should be, but it all ended well. I feel like I passed through the fraternity pledge.
The best were the kids. They definitely enjoyed the show. (link to the video: http://tmnetsolutions.com/dead_tree.mp4).

Thank you guys for all your advice and comments.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 20, 2014)

Well ya got er dun. Good jobs Just a couple observations, lot of slack in your lifeline, and it looked like you were positioned right behind your backcut. If that had chaired it would have hurt. A lot work on cutting from the side. Glad you're ok.


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## kator (Jul 20, 2014)

Indeed I neglected to remove the slack from the second lifeline. I had two lifelines attached to two different trees. In case of swing I would not smash against a trunk of the other tree, but swing right in between. As the lifeline was almost horizontal it felt heavy and pulling. I know you should not have your lifeline more than 45 degrees, but there was no higher anchoring point. 

I was positioned on the side. It is not well seen on the footage, but the back cut was at the camera view side. 

Thank you for comments.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jul 20, 2014)

Np


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

Here is something a newbie can learn from my mistake. I was cutting a small limb on top of the canopy. I made about one third undercut. As I was finishing the backcut the limb instead to break started to split. Just below the cut I had my lanyard. Fortunately the limb broke before the split reached the lanyard. If it would be some large wood it may and not end so well. On the next branch I made a wedge. Since then I am cutting nice wedges even on small branches if they lean heavely.

tmnetsolutions.com/dangerous_split.mp4


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

Few questions for the next challenge.
The remaining leaning oak grows above birches and ornamental plants which I hope to preserve. 
It is the third tree of the triplet. One of which was dead and the other just stripped of canopy pointed on the second picture. The circles are my intended T.I.P.'s. The lower is much closer to the center of the tree. The biggest challenge for me seems to be the right part of the canopy (second picture).

1. Would you ever use this same tree for rigging, considering its lean? 
2. Would you ridge to a tree pointed by arrows on the second picture? (Not very useful probably).
3. What about using a speed line to the drop zone beyond right side of the picture? This seems to be the most appealing to me, but I don't know if it can be rigged safely. The speedline would be at about 45 degree angle.
4. Would you use a higher anchor points for the climb line. How big or small limb would you set the safety line on? 8, 6, 4 inches? I know it depends, but what would be a rule of thumb here? 

Thanks alot in advance.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 23, 2014)

Have you ever tried speedlining before?


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

No, I did not. 
I thought about cutting small sections at first.
I am not in a hurry. Priority for me now is gaining experience safely. 
The challenge with this task is to reach enough far to do the cut on lateral branches if the safety line has a low anchor point.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 23, 2014)

Speedlining can actually be kinda fun.


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

I imagine. For now I will let the branches to take a ride. 
I believe if I tense the speedline against the lean then there shouldn't be a big stress on the tree, and 45 degree angle will make a smooth fall.
However, I don't see yet where I would anchor the line, except to the remaining part of the severed branch and then move to next. Is it practiced?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 23, 2014)

Usually, I'll anchor it to the trunk, above the limb, and work my way up.


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

This is somewhat similar job. However, the tree has much bigger base to withstand the drop than the one I deal with.


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## kator (Jul 23, 2014)

> Usually, I'll anchor it to the trunk, above the limb



Do you see a trunk on my tree? It is more like a fan. The crown has a flat almost horizontal shape. Where would you attach a speedline?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 23, 2014)

Then, like you said, to the remaining part of the severed branch.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Jul 23, 2014)

If i'm willing to climb on it I will attach a speed line to it. As long as there is a little sag in the rope the forces on the tree are smaller than you would expect. I would attach the speedline as far away from obstacles as possible and leave a little more sag in the rope.


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