# Bar Size on The 200T



## Jimmychips (Mar 5, 2008)

My trusty (and free) Echo CS3000 is finally going to be replaced. Had it for the first 4 years in business. Obviously the 200T is going to be the new saw. I prefer to always use the smallest practical saw for the the job at hand (probably use the 3' bar on the MS660 2-3 times a year, if that) don't like the extra weight, extra chain, extra exposure, etc. Here's the question: do any of you fellas run the 12" bar on the 200T? Will I regret not having the 14" bar? Believe me, at 40 years old, with no bucket truck, its not the saw slowing the job down! Any input is appreciated- Thanks.


----------



## 2FatGuys (Mar 5, 2008)

We use 14" bars on our climbing saws as well. The extra 2" doesn't add a significant amount of weight or exposure. We do have 12" bars and chains available to use if we are working in smaller trees with tight quarters. The 2" does make a difference in positioning sometimes in crowded willow oaks.

As far as chains, I would NEVER modify the manufacturer's tie straps. Doing this opens you up to possibly weakening them, and thus the chain. If you look at your billable rate, and compare that to the amount of time necessary to grind the humps off of the tie straps, you will find it makes more sense to just throw away the slow chain and buy a new one!


----------



## 046 (Mar 5, 2008)

14in on my 200T


----------



## farmer (Mar 5, 2008)

The part he is talking about grinding off would not have any effect on the tie strap strength. It is a hump that prevents nose kickback. I would use an angle grinder to do most of the grinding and it would not take much time. Safety chain is made for rookies and it is probably good for them. If you spend $600 for a ms200 you are probably not a rookie.


----------



## reachtreeservi (Mar 5, 2008)

farmer said:


> The part he is talking about grinding off would not have any effect on the tie strap strength. It is a hump that prevents nose kickback. I would use an angle grinder to do most of the grinding and it would not take much time. Safety chain is made for rookies and it is probably good for them. If you spend $600 for a ms200 you are probably not a rookie.



You can get a stock STIHL chain without the humps for 17.00
If you alter the chain significantly and there's an accident, and the Insurance Co. get's ahold of the saw and chain (and they will ) ,
then you can forget getting paid by the Insurance Co.

It's not worth it to save 17.00 bucks


I agree safety chain is for rookies. 
However the amount someone spends on a tool has no relevance on whether they are a rookie or not.

Just because you have deep pockets doesn't mean you have any experience.


----------



## farmer (Mar 5, 2008)

The ms200 is pretty much a climbing saw [and overpriced]. A H.O. or other rookie could get a comparable rearhandled saw for less than half of the cost for a ms 200. Odds are even a rich person won't throw $300 more at a saw that is specific-use anyway.


----------



## Jimmychips (Mar 5, 2008)

So it looks like the 14" bar. As far as the chain, I wouldn't leave the store with one of the green-label safety chains. As you guys know, once you saw with a full chisel set-up, you will not go back to anything else. Does Stihl make full chisel chains for the 200t, or are they semi-chisel? I also agree with 1: the short money for a new chain is always worth it, and 2: deep pockets does not equal experience.

How bout shallow pockets?


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

Jimmychips said:


> So it looks like the 14" bar. As far as the chain, I wouldn't leave the store with one of the green-label safety chains. As you guys know, once you saw with a full chisel set-up, you will not go back to anything else. Does Stihl make full chisel chains for the 200t, or are they semi-chisel? I also agree with 1: the short money for a new chain is always worth it, and 2: deep pockets does not equal experience.
> 
> How bout shallow pockets?



I do not think you can get full chisel for climbing saw, I could be wrong. I do use the lightweight version of a 14" bar for my 200. 
Now they have low profile chains and bars. I have one of my 200's set up with what Stihl makes. It is nice. The bar is 14" inches but the skinny along the groove sides and not as "full" as the stock stuff. It runs like a chevette with a big block. It can chatter on those big one handed cuts and I asked if they had any drawbacks, they told me some of the cheaper versions did not handle the punishment and the chain would brake. I guess this sounds right because the smaller chain and bar do not have the girth as it older brothers. It is lighter and makes faster cuts. Since the chain is not as wide it does not remove as much material to cut. Oregon makes some low profile chains to.
Out of 3 200's 1 has a standard 14" bar and chain, 1 has the 14" low profile and the third has the 16" set up. The only chisel stuff I have is on the bigger rear handle saws, I think even the 26 has a semi chisel.
As far as what chain I use: I try to stay away from all that extra low kickback stuff too.


----------



## Jimmychips (Mar 5, 2008)

Hey tree Man: when you say "skinny" do you mean skinny in width or in height. I would like skinny in height as the shorter bar would make bore cutting on the small stuff easier (and safer). I can see where skinny in width would make for a faster cut though.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I've got 14 inch bars on both of mine. I believe Stihl has an optional bar available that is lighter than the stock bar. Something else to consider is to get a faster cutting chain than the three hump tie strap version that comes stock, or at least did on mine. I ground the humps off of the tie straps with a dremel tool and it didn't take long.



I just tell the guys to swap it out for a better chain before I buy it, that doesn't take long either. One of the new guys gave me one of those chains with the extra humps by mistake, they do cut slower. I think I actually feel the extra weight as well. I just filed them off.


----------



## 2FatGuys (Mar 5, 2008)

Farmer - 

First - I've NEVER paid list price for a saw.

Second - ANYONE can get a MS200T from eBay at a great savings. So, just because someone has a 200T, it doesn't mean it was a $600 one.

Third - A lack of a safety mentality = an increase in personal liability. Taking the initiative and time to grind the humps off of 50 tie straps opens you up to personal liability should somehting happen. A $15 chain is SMALL change when it comes to safety.

But, most importantly, re-read your own posts. If we accept your 2 statements: "If you spend $600 for a ms200 you are probably not a rookie." and "Odds are even a rich person won't throw $300 more at a saw that is specific-use anyway.", then this saw should rightly be in the hands of a climber, someone who focuses on work IN the tree. This non-rookie, specific user would typically prefer to swap the chain to a proven model rather than take the time to "modify" a specific safety feature.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

Jimmychips said:


> Hey tree Man: when you say "skinny" do you mean skinny in width or in height. I would like skinny in height as the shorter bar would make bore cutting on the small stuff easier (and safer). I can see where skinny in width would make for a faster cut though.



I know , I know very confusing, let me try again. The whole set up is smaller and more narrow. It is the same length. The bar is bordering on a carvers bar, it is more pointed. Very nice for pruning and tight spots. Sooo light and agile! The chain is narrow and the teeth aren't as big, cuts very smooth and the curf is not as wide. Its like when you carve a turkey with an electric knife.


----------



## Jimmychips (Mar 5, 2008)

Got it: thanks for the info.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

Jimmychips said:


> Hey tree Man: when you say "skinny" do you mean skinny in width or in height. I would like skinny in height as the shorter bar would make bore cutting on the small stuff easier (and safer). I can see where skinny in width would make for a faster cut though.



And YES it is better for boring in the fact that it will give you more holding wood to work with. It just a regular bar on Jenny Craig with the same power driving it. VROOOM! Throttle response is better too. I would stick to using Stihl stuff on this, as we all know what that means.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

Here is something: Oregon advertises that its new low profile chain will " get you out of the tree 20% faster". In theory this is true and in the field the theory is possible. The saw cuts less material out of its way while giving you a smoother cut and the smaller chain now is driven something that easily drives a bigger one. Also you saw should last longer I think.
So at the end of each year you should see a 20% rise is productivity and profit and you will be 20% less tired. Excuse me I just made soda come out my nose.
I like the low pro chain and bars. I always had stihls leightweight bars on my 200 and I noticed a difference but combined with the light chain I do see a big diference. Whether or not we will now start seeing chains like this breaking all the time is another story. The bad thing about low pro is now you lost a little beef. I don't seem to mind, yet.


----------



## farmer (Mar 5, 2008)

The humps that make the safetey chain safe have nothing to do with the strenth or integrity of the chain. If I was stuck with one and could grind off the protrusions in 5 minutes without damaging the tie straps- hummm -- 5 minutes $17. 12 times 17 equals what?


----------



## Nailsbeats (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the tip Farmer, I will have to get the grinder out.


----------



## fireman (Mar 5, 2008)

*200t*

I run 16 inch bars on both of my 200's with full chisel.each chain is specific to the job you r doing.you do not modify a chain, you buy a chain to fit your specific purpose of cutting.you are asking for missing fingers or allot of stitches if you do.


----------



## farmer (Mar 5, 2008)

How many people who have filed their chains have filed into the tie straps? You guys all immediately took the chains and threw them away, right?


----------



## oldirty (Mar 5, 2008)

relax farmer. people just covering their arse is all. i got some of that green chain and took those rakers right down. all better now.


14in is perfect for your 2hunge jchips. if you are feeling real good about your saw and want to get it even lighter go ahead and get a composite lite bar. i love how forgiving those bars are. and hey your old and these bars are light. perfect combo. lol


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

farmer said:


> How many people who have filed their chains have filed into the tie straps? You guys all immediately took the chains and threw them away, right?



I am quick to discard a climbing saw chain, perhaps to quick, I toss them at about 50% wear. By the time it gets to that point it has had a hard life and I feel better not having it near my face. It does take a long time for me to wear a climbing chain to 50% as they don't get mangled like a ground saw might. When I file it I go light.
If it had some sort of trauma that would compromise its operation then its gone as well. But no, a few scrapes with a hand file on the straps is not to bad. A kink, bend or stiff joint? Why mess around when its a few bucks? Like my underwear, I like to have something fresh and clean every once in a while.
It does surprise me how fast a chain stops when it comes off the bar, at least when it comes off in one piece. Still, like a hazzard tree, you don't exactly know how it will fall.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> relax farmer. people just covering their arse is all. i got some of that green chain and took those rakers right down. all better now.
> 
> 
> 14in is perfect for your 2hunge jchips. if you are feeling real good about your saw and want to get it even lighter go ahead and get a composite lite bar. i love how forgiving those bars are. and hey your old and these bars are light. perfect combo. lol



just a few questions. What is 2hunge jchips? And are you sure you took the rakers down and not the safety hump things? I went a little deep on the rakers and found that it was bad, very bad. 
And yes those composite bars are nice, very nice.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

treemandan said:


> I am quick to discard a climbing saw chain, perhaps to quick, I toss them at about 50% wear. By the time it gets to that point it has had a hard life and I feel better not having it near my face. It does take a long time for me to wear a climbing chain to 50% as they don't get mangled like a ground saw might. When I file it I go light.
> If it had some sort of trauma that would compromise its operation then its gone as well. But no, a few scrapes with a hand file on the straps is not to bad. A kink, bend or stiff joint? Why mess around when its a few bucks? Like my underwear, I like to have something fresh and clean every once in a while.
> It does surprise me how fast a chain stops when it comes off the bar, at least when it comes off in one piece. Still, like a hazzard tree, you don't exactly know how it will fall.



By the way this is now after learning a few things and being able to afford it. You should have seen the crazy crap I used to work with.


----------



## oldirty (Mar 5, 2008)

treemandan said:


> just a few questions. What is 2hunge jchips? And are you sure you took the rakers down and not the safety hump things? I went a little deep on the rakers and found that it was bad, very bad.
> And yes those composite bars are nice, very nice.



whatever was in front of the teeth got a haircut. (ive since made sure never to use that chain again)



2hunge is my slang for the 200t. suppose i had 200 dollars right? well to me that is 2hunge. i call a hundred a hunge. the 200t is, to me, the 2hunge.

jchips would be jimmychips for short.


----------



## juststumps (Mar 5, 2008)

we run 8 200t's .. when they got purchased (not all at once),,,we told the dealer ,,,14" bar and the pro chain......he just swaps them out... no charge..

all the saws come set up as stihl's recomended set up....doesn't mean you have to walk out the door with it..... just ask.... works for us...


----------



## treemandan (Mar 5, 2008)

oldirty said:


> whatever was in front of the teeth got a haircut. (ive since made sure never to use that chain again)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ooops, not the rakers! Only about a 16th of an inch gap when you lay a straight edge over the teeth should be fine, I think. You can take the safety humps out completely. The rakers are your friends.
I see that now: 2hunge. I would still call it a 20 but some people think I am talking about something else.


----------



## Frank Boyer (Mar 5, 2008)

A 1/16" gap is .062" or about 1 1/2 MM. Spec on Stihl PM chain is .65 MM (.026"). You are very low on your rakers. 

I use a 14" bar with Stihl PM chain on my HT 101 and 200T. I am to old and heavy to climb and bought the 200T because it is a small light high performance saw.


----------



## 2FatGuys (Mar 6, 2008)

This is a hilarious thread...

We have debated "To file or not to file" the humps. Why?

I haven't had a hump chain in at least 20 years! I make SURE that I never buy them or get them when buying a saw. It seems to me that if you are a pro, and you are concerned about safety and profit, you would be buying the correct chains to start with. If you do, then the point is moot.... no grinding off humps necessary!


----------



## Podaltura (Mar 6, 2008)

I have 12" carving bar, and the standar of 14", and 16" for some works. The prefer for me: carving bar and 1/4 chain. Light, and much more safety than the 3/8 low profile chains.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 6, 2008)

Frank Boyer said:


> A 1/16" gap is .062" or about 1 1/2 MM. Spec on Stihl PM chain is .65 MM (.026"). You are very low on your rakers.
> 
> I use a 14" bar with Stihl PM chain on my HT 101 and 200T. I am to old and heavy to climb and bought the 200T because it is a small light high performance saw.



Yes you are right 1/16 is way to much. After messing around taking to much now I just lay a file over the teeth and if I see daylight its good. I guess the gap is the same width as a matchbook or a little less. Someone told me the cardboard of a matchbook is about 1/16 of an inch, I just looked to see if he was right, he isn't. All these years I was wrong for believing him. I tried taking more than that once and the chain always jammed in the cut. If I take them down it is just a quick pass with a flat file.

Nobody else use the low pro chains? I think you guys are missing out. 

If anybody thinks this thread is hilarious: at least its not called " how do I sharpen the chain on my wild thing", which sells for 94.95. Who in their right mind would pass up that deal?


----------



## farmer (Mar 6, 2008)

You should get yourself a depth guage. There only 3 or 4 dollars.


----------



## treemandan (Mar 6, 2008)

farmer said:


> You should get yourself a depth guage. There only 3 or 4 dollars.



To late for that now as my eye does the job just fine, now. The actuall thickness of a matchbook is .025" which falls into proper specification. That is about what my eye gets me. 
I also have a set of those Pferd file guides with the tooth and raker files combined. I think this is one of the better guides to have in the field. You can take the raker file out and just use the round file. They are like 20 bucks a pop.
I don't ever recall seeing full chisel chain on any little saw.


----------



## HolmenTree (Mar 7, 2008)

I'll admit I use the 61 mini chain on my ms200 also, if I go back to the 63PM it seems to cut like a dog. The 61 mini doesn't stand up like the 63 but if its kept sharp the extra speed overcomes any lost durability.
I've tried the 1/4" RM chain but try and find a 1/4" sprocket nose bar.About 20 years ago the 020Stihl was available with 1/4" sprocket nose bar and chain but I wish you luck finding one today thats the way it is here in Canada anyway.Your only option is a solid small tip carving bar,which barely cuts in a plunge bore cut and if you use your saws felling sight mark to aim a top,branch or whatever it doesn't line up with the different contour of the carving bar. The power you lose with the friction of the solid tip makes the 1/4" cut slower than the 63PM. I prefer 12" on the MS200 if I need more I'll use my 026pro 16".No one that I know of has ever made a full chiesel mini chain. 
= bar groove size: 61PMMini [.043"] 63PM [.050"] 1/4" RM [.050"]


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Mar 7, 2008)

I run 12 inch on mine but have some with 14 and one with a 16. I wouldnt run full chisel chain on a top handle, my jobs dangerous enough as it is.


----------



## Kogafortwo (Mar 7, 2008)

*rich guys and saws*



farmer said:


> The ms200 is pretty much a climbing saw [and overpriced]. A H.O. or other rookie could get a comparable rearhandled saw for less than half of the cost for a ms 200. Odds are even a rich person won't throw $300 more at a saw that is specific-use anyway.



Did you guys see the thread a few weeks ago from the guy in NYC with a modified 880? Never underestimate peoples' ability to spend money on stuff they don't need.


----------



## TimberMcPherson (Mar 7, 2008)

Kogafortwo said:


> Did you guys see the thread a few weeks ago from the guy in NYC with a modified 880? Never underestimate peoples' ability to spend money on stuff they don't need.



Look how many harleys about with only a few thousand miles on them. I know a plumber that has a 3120xp and 385xp new, used once and hes had them 5 years.


----------



## pdqdl (Mar 7, 2008)

*Dremel on a chain ?*



TreeCo said:


> ...I ground the humps off of the tie straps with a dremel tool and it didn't take long.



You might want to consider Oregon 91vs chain: no safety tie straps, depth guages are "non-safety". Semi-chisel cutter. Cuts fast !

I wish somebody would make a low profile chain in chisel tooth, but that doesn't seem likely.


----------



## hornett224 (Mar 7, 2008)

*if it's a Stihl dealer.............*

just tell him you want the yellow chain.it seems to cut smoother than the green for some reason. i noticed a lot of kick back with the green.E-Lite bar is nice too.14" on mine.


----------



## elmnut (Mar 7, 2008)

juststumps said:


> we run 8 200t's .. when they got purchased (not all at once),,,we told the dealer ,,,14" bar and the pro chain......he just swaps them out... no charge..
> 
> all the saws come set up as stihl's recomended set up....doesn't mean you have to walk out the door with it..... just ask.... works for us...



He is right!


----------

