# leaving rope in tree



## rmihalek (Jun 13, 2006)

Is there any downside to leaving my climbing rope in the tree over night or even for a few days? I climb in my yard, so there's little risk of theft, but I was wondering if it's known whether squirrels like to chew on the rope or anything like that.

What I've been doing so far is to pull the climbing line down while at the same time sending a tag line up so then the next day I just have to pull my climbing line back up. It's not a big deal, but it takes another few minutes out of an already tight afternoon schedule.

Thanks,
Bob


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## Kate Butler (Jun 13, 2006)

*leaving rope in a tree*

Well, there's always the problem of the "attractive nuisance". Someone, even someone who has no business on your property or near your stuff, can sue you (or their parents can sue you) for "maintaining an attractive nuisance" if they should injure themselves on your property, and likely win a judgement against you (and your insurance company). Not a pretty picture. Ladders, unfenced pools or ponds, open excavations, and suchlike are prime targets


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## Mr_Brushcutter (Jun 14, 2006)

I'd say it not the best idea i'm not sure what type of weater you get but i'm sure lots of UV isn't good for rope. Also if it rains then gets down to freezing temps the rope might get some kind of freeze thaw action going on which really would cause dammage. I'd just leave a throwline up there.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 15, 2006)

Bob, I very often leave a throw line in my trees for a few days, but I never leave a climbing line up. UV exposure is a real problem down here, but also - the squirrels love to chew on anything plastic, so I won't trust them with my climbing lines. They almost completely consumed a small ladder with plastic steps that my mom left out in her carport, for no apparent reason other than innate destructive tendencies. I also had them cut one of my tag lines - a 200 foot piece of parachute cord I had left in a big cypress tree.


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## sawn_penn (Jun 15, 2006)

UV exposure over a few days isn't a problem. You get the same UV exposure leaving the rope in a tree for 3 days as you get using the rope for three full days.

Freeze thaw cycles aren't a problem with kernmantle ropes, and probably aren't a problem with other synthetic ropes either. Kernmantle ropes were developed for mountaineering, and yep, stuff freezes!

Days in a tree isn't a problem. Months and months would be bad for the outside of the rope, but probably wouldn't cause significant damage to the core.

(I've been up 8mm fixed lines that have been in place for years in the mountains. Not really recommended, but common enough practice.)


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## Climb020 (Jun 15, 2006)

Yes animals can be a real problem. If they were to chew say where the rope went over the crotch and you couldn't see what they did you could fall once you begin to climb if they damaged the rope enough. I wouldn't recommend leave a throw line in the tree. And tie the throw line to the trunk of the tree with a step stool or something so no one could mess or get hurt playing with it.


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## sawn_penn (Jun 16, 2006)

Down here, I've never heard of anything eating nylon rope.


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## rmihalek (Jun 16, 2006)

Climb020, That was my biggest concern: some sharp toothed rodent staggering home from an acorn bender might just decide to gnaw on my line some night. However, whenever I clip in to start a climb, I always just swing around a bit, bounce a little, adjust the saddle, double check the knots, biners, etc. while still within a few feet of the ground just to be sure all is well. So, if there was some gnawing going on up at the crotch (ouch!) then my guess is the rope would break right then, but if it didn't I'd see the chewed on section as I was going up and the rope was running down through the hitch. 

Cheers,
Bob


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## sawn_penn (Jun 16, 2006)

Climb020 said:


> Yes animals can be a real problem. If they were to chew say where the rope went over the crotch and you couldn't see what they did you could fall once you begin to climb if they damaged the rope enough.



Is this a hypothetical "animals could be a problem if they ate nylon but they don't", or do you have any experience with animals eating rope?

We have different animals down here, and "the critter ate my rope" is unheard of. We had a storeroom full of ropes (1500m all up?) that had a rodent problem for ten years, and not a hint of a problem.


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## moss (Jun 16, 2006)

The accepted safety practice for rec climbing is to do a complete gear check before a climb. So if you left the rope in the tree you'll still want to inspect it. This would consist of running the rope through your hands to feel for any inconsistency in the rope and to do a visual check. This would cover for the possibility of damage from animals, falling branch or any other remote but possible sources of rope damage.

It can be done very easily without losing your TIP by tying the two ends of the rope together to create a continuous loop.
-moss


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## Fireaxman (Jun 16, 2006)

sawn_penn said:


> Is this a hypothetical "animals could be a problem if they ate nylon but they don't", or do you have any experience with animals eating rope?



Sawn, rodent's teeth, unlike ours, grow continually. They HAVE to chew to keep their teeth from outgrowing their mouths. If they get enough abrasion from their natural food source (like hickory hulls) well and good. If they are making a nice fat living on sunflower seeds from people's bird feeders in the subdivisions, they chew on Everything. House wiring, lead covers for home drain vents, plastic steps on step ladders, and (yes) nylon parachute cord tag lines (confirmed, actually happened. Would gladly have eaten the squirrel but had left my.22 in the truck). They also chewed through the (hardware store) nylon rope I used to hang my mom's bird feeder. I had to use clothes hanger wire to defeat them, and it had several shiny nicks in it until Katrina came by and finished it off.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 17, 2006)

sawn_penn said:


> You get the same UV exposure leaving the rope in a tree for 3 days as you get using the rope for three full days.



True. But if you USE the rope 3 days you get the benefit (money or fun) of climbing on it. If you just leave it in the tree to save a few minutes of rigging you've got 3 days of depreciation without much benefit.


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## sawn_penn (Jun 18, 2006)

Fireaxman said:


> True. But if you USE the rope 3 days you get the benefit (money or fun) of climbing on it. If you just leave it in the tree to save a few minutes of rigging you've got 3 days of depreciation without much benefit.



I've been using ropes seriously (caving, climbing, mountaineering, industrial access, vert rescue) for twenty years. I've never retired a rope because of UV exposure. Other things (falls, abrasion, age) get the rope first. There are plenty of UV exposed ropes and slings fixed on climbs, but that's what you get leaving the gear in open all year round.

Also in this twenty years I've never heard a "my dog ate my ropework" story.

There are enough real ways to get into trouble with ropes without having to dream up imaginary ones.

Leaving a rope in a tree for a few days sounds like a convenient idea to me.


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## antigrassguy (Jun 18, 2006)

A climbing line is actually a life line and this is the name I always use. Any time a person ascends or descends on a line they are betting their life, or someone elses, that it will hold. A few minutes to reset the life line would be my first and only choice.


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## Fireaxman (Jun 18, 2006)

Bob has read both sides of the story. It is his decision. I store my ropes in a safe, dry aluminum tool box and check them out before every climb. Each climber consciously or unconsciously does his or her own risk/benefit analysis.

Either way, I'm glad he asked, and (sawn) I'm glad you gave us the benefit of your experience. He will be able to make an informed decision.


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## sawn_penn (Jun 19, 2006)

Yes, I'm absolutely NOT saying, "don't worry about your rigging, it'll be right even if you are careless".

There are always tradeoffs. Be safe.


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## RolloriClimber (Aug 30, 2006)

Personally I would keep doing what you have been doing , with the tag line . I taught my daughters to climb , and my wife was telling me that I should just get a line and leave in the tree for them. Wife got me off gaurd actully considered it till my oldest " just turned 15 few days ago " said wont it get wore out and unsafe from the sun and weather?


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## Guardabosques (Aug 30, 2006)

I recently read the book titled TREE, by James Balog, that has some amazing photography of the country's champion trees (and other noteworthy trees.) One of the trees is named the Del Norte Titan and is a huge redwood. 

The anecdote (or essay) that accompanies the photo describes an incident with some unidentified canopy dweller. Some of the local canopy researchers left a black nylon line over a branch some 300+ feet high for easy re-entry. When they returned they found that something had chewed through it. 

The third attempt involved a steel cable which wasn't long enough to reach the ground, and the remainder was finished with nylon cord. The critter even climbed down the steel cable then chewed the nylon that linked to the steel.

In a non-tree related incident, I had a friend who had their boat sank by musk rats. Musk-rats like rubber so they ate all the rubber seals and grommets that keep the boat water tight.

Kernmantle rodent chow? Hmmmm........

As far as safety goes,:deadhorse: :deadhorse: 


Lucas


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## MrRecurve (Aug 31, 2006)

I just leave a throwline up my rec tree. Takes all of 30 seconds to pull up 60 metres.


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## arboralliance (Aug 31, 2006)

*Please consider...*



sawn_penn said:


> UV exposure over a few days isn't a problem. You get the same UV exposure leaving the rope in a tree for 3 days as you get using the rope for three full days.
> 
> Freeze thaw cycles aren't a problem with kernmantle ropes, and probably aren't a problem with other synthetic ropes either. Kernmantle ropes were developed for mountaineering, and yep, stuff freezes!
> 
> ...



I urge you to read the article I have written regarding postings about this very topic/issue, it could save your life!

PLEASE CONSIDER?

Arb' rope is completely different to abseiling/mountaineering rope...

The exterior sheath of mountaineering rope is ONLY a PROTECTIVE cover over a woven core of A KNOWN rated strength...

ARB' ROPE is a thick RATED SHEATH over a core that keeps the sheath in form...

Arb' rope is made as such because we use it in extreme conditions e.g. in constant ascent and descent using a rope friction hitch, around falling logs and being constantly loaded and trodden on or tensioned over limbs THEREFORE our sheath needs to be able to stand up to constant heat through perpetual friction AND we need to be able to inspect frequently the working part of our rope for damage which is the rated outer sheath...(Ignoring at this point the fact that our working environment is filthy…)

If you leave Arb' rope out in the sun the rated part (the sheath) will get sun affected as the sun filters through the canopy (or belts down directly in most cases) on the resting line WHERE AS days being actually used in the sun sees the line constantly moving and therefore not subject to constant U.V. light in any one spot...USING YOUR ROPE FOR THREE DAYS IS NOT THE SAME AS LEAVING IT IN THE SUN FOR THREE DAYS...

I have read repeatedly on here (ArboristSite) posts by even those well respected and highly experienced and qualified in the industry claiming the use of mountaineering rope in Arb’ to be acceptable...

I will attempt to list and detail the reasons IMHO I believe it is a fallacy that you can safely use mountaineering rope in most Arb' work situations (I will also attempt give reasonable examples)...

An example we use in instructing students is this; if you were to drop a large piece of wood on your line as it lay across a solid surface (potentially a common occurrence in Arb’ work BUT NOT IN MOUNTAINEERING) you can easily (relatively) see the damage (if any) to the rated (very thick, purpose built) sheath and remove the section or discard the rope if this rated sheath has been damaged…

IF the same incident were to occur with mountaineering rope the damage to the structural or integral/rated part of the rope (that being the inner core) could not as easily be observed, therefore, potentially you could be climbing (or hanging) on damaged or even partially cut rope and you wouldn’t be able to tell because the thin outer non rated protective sheath would likely hide this defect...

The other critical part I see in this argument which is one that leaves me feeling sickened when I hear about blokes using mountaineering ropes for Arb' work is; 

this protective sheath on MOUNTAINEERING ROPES IS NOT DESIGNED TO HAVE ROPE RUBBED AGAINST IT AS IT IS BOTH NOT STRUCTURALLY INTEGRAL TO THE LINE AND IS EXTREMELY THIN AND THEREFORE CAN BE MELTED and IN TURN CUT BY THE HEAT OF A RUBBING ROPE OR DEVICE (LIMB ETC, ETC) RELATIVELY EASILY… 

Therefore, using any rope friction hitch/prussic or ANY FORM OF FRICTION DESCENT DEVICE on mountaineering rope as is done constantly within tree work where that device or hitch heats up (which it always will) and in turn burn/s through the very thin and non purpose designed mountaineering rope outer sheath which in turn will send the climber to the deck as the sheath strips down from the point of sheath failure which then in turn leaves your ascent /descent device exposed to the now unprotected core and the same heat will then very quickly cut this also... 

Arb' rope avoids this scenario by having firstly a very thick and structurally rated outer sheath both designed to accommodate and dissipate heat and accommodate ropes rubbing against it (within reason)… (We use a rope friction hitch/prussic so we can discard them regularly as the week link in the system or the disposable link in the system…)

Arb’ rope is also a thicker rope with a design that assists heat dispersion through the weave and assembly of the sheath and core and by the very nature of it being thicker in diameter...

Devices such as “whale tails” and other "heat sinking" abseil/mountaineering devices were specifically designed to both assist the mountaineer in very slow descents because of the nature of mountaineering rope and to dissipate heat from the belay/decent device preventing rope burn...

(Fall arrest (or “Dynamic”) ropes in mountaineering are completely different again in their dynamic nature and as we don’t use dynamic ropes in Arb' I won’t bring them into this post...)

NEEDLES to say Mountaineering ropes are not and never were designed for tree work, they are purpose designed and manufactured for mountaineering and therefore for the combined use with hardware devices of mountaineering under a static load system for ascent assist and descent control using mechanical ascent and descent devices...(However as it is a static application ascent by prussic is acceptable on static Mountaineering rope BUT ONE SHOULD NEVER DESCEND ON PRUSSIC WITH MOUNTAINEERING ROPE UNLESS IN EMERGENCY OR SELF RESCUE SITUATION ONLY!)


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## arboralliance (Aug 31, 2006)

*cont'*

It has been mentioned above that rope is designed to be or can be left on mountains for months or years at a time...

Arb' rope is possibly less susceptible to U.V. light as the sheath is thicker however I would avoid leaving the rope in the tree for a whole host of reasons...

Arb' rope does not have the same water repellent or water resistant treatments as some specifically designed mountaineering ropes therefore Arb’ rope isn’t designed to be left out for long periods as the strength of the rope can be affected by dirt impregnation via leaving the rope out and once again U.V. light ...(it can also acquire fungal infections from being left moist just as “un treated” mountaineering ropes can, once again, specific designed and moisture retardant treated mountaineering ropes are better able to accommodate constant moisture, Arb’ ropes are not, a fungal infection will destroy the structural integrity of rope like nothing else on the planet this is caused by the chemical nature of certain fungi being alcohol initiative (I am no chemist) and in turn changing the chemical structure of the rope…or chemically “cold” melting the rope…)

Certain Mountaineering ropes that are used to set fixed guide lines, ascent lines or traverse and Tyrolienne lines have a sheath treated to be more U.V. resistant than others (this is why some Mountaineering rope can be so much more expensive than others). These ropes when used are invariably not constantly weighted like Arb’ ropes are so their structural integrity would be harder to ascertain as they realistically are left in place as a secondary system to a primary rope. ARB' ROPE DOES NOT HAVE ANY SUCH RATING OR ADDITIONAL PROTECTION OR TREATMENT...

Please do not bundle the UIAA ratings of mountaineering rope in with that of Arb' rope!! Mountaineering ropes are by their purpose design and manufacture considerably different to Arb’ ropes...

I have a brand new 50 m UIAA rated mountaineering rope on my lap as I write and the sheath is so thin I cannot begin to guess at or measure its thickness (I have an engineering background versant in measuring extremely small distances) I would say it is paper thin and I know from experience that it heats up very quickly and does not have the heat dissipating qualities of Arb rope let alone the integrity and design engineering to accommodate our filthy work environment...

I have been instructing climbing from Arb’ to Mountaineering on and off for over twenty years now having been a mad keen climber as a kid. Climbing both trees and rock was (and still is to some degree) my only escape from a very unforgiving childhood... I have worked with a number of Professional Mountaineers, Arborists and Vertical Access technicians who have devoted there entire life’s work to researching Arb’ and Mountaineering rope and equipment… Therefore I have spent many hours discussing these and many other issues pertaining to the world of climbing with rope… (One of these Mountaineers showed me how self rescue and general abseiling can be done on 2mm kernmantle!)

In my early twenties I was dropped off a cliff because the mountaineering rope got too hot to handle...

I have climbed for years on mountaineering ropes IN TREES…WHY, because I was consistently climbing all day, up and down 250 - 300++ foot E. regnans and needed to carry all my gear through cold/temperate rain forest to do so, therefore weight was a serious fatigue and therefore safety issue, carrying 400++ foot of rope and all my gear including axe, chainsaw, climbers, harness, pruning saw, secateur’s, self rescue equip’, etc, etc the only reasonable option was using double line descent on 7mm static mountaineering rope with a huge alloy "5 hole - whale tail" to take the heat out of the system and that was even going real slow on the descent... I could come out of the same or similar trees on Arb’ rope much faster only on a friction hitch and only be concerned with burning through the friction hitch (don’t ask)…

I left a mountaineering line in a tree stump once for a few weeks as it was the bottom 100++ foot stump of a tree I was removing for friends at mates rates so wanted to make it as safe and easy as I could to resume the work in my spare time; the line was severely sun damaged after approximately 3 weeks (the bright shiny purple and red fleck sheath had faded dramatically in the three weeks and the rope had gone from beautifully supple to almost brittle and quite rigid. The rope was only a month or two old and had been used less than 5 times, it was a well recognized and expensive Mountaineering rope) and had to be discarded as it was obviously severely sun affected... (Keeping in mind there is a known hole in the ozone layer over Victoria in the southern part of eastern Australia; all my international friends notice the sun burning them as soon as it peeps out from behind the clouds down in Victoria… When they do the smog alerts on the news down there they also do a U.V. rating for the day! We have the highest rates of skin cancer in the world!)...

Mountaineering rope can and invariably is completely covered in snow and or ice for all or most of its time on the mountain further filtering or completely stopping U.V. light damage (among a multitude of other reasons ropes can be and are relatively “protected” on Mountains)...

IMHO the claims that have been made in this thread seem bold… 

If one filament of the rope is cut one could make the bold claim “no, it will be fine, you can have X percent of the line damaged and it is still rated safe” which is fair enough…

Similarly with U.V. effect…

HOWEVER, consider this, a 50m rope has one filament cut at 20m another at 23m another at 27m another at 30m and yet another at 34m that’s a fair distance apart, all small “nicks” in the rope we would all concur HOWEVER if those nicks all transpired to be on the same turn of thread or made up a strand you have a rope that needs to be retired THAT ALONG WITH THE AGE OF THE ROPE WHICH HAS NOT BEEN ADRESSED HERE OR EVEN THE HISTORY OF THE ROPE…

The same applies if the rope is left out for three days in the sun or even just outside for three days who is to say it is not going to get a weak spot in it from any or all of the elements besides the rot of chemical impregnation from the tree or fungi, how old is the rope, how many times has the rope been stressed before, what’s the history of the rope what was the rope designed to do or withstand or be rated for or against?

Go stick a piece (any piece) of rope in the oven for three days (set oven on a direct sunlight mid summer heat setting) then wet it right down with water and place it in a bag for three days with some mulch and or a few moist green branches then post here what it looks and smells like and it wont have even been exposed to the damaging effects of U.V. light in that time but I can guarantee you wont want to climb on it let alone touch it…

IMHO it is never one single doing that causes failure in a system it is a multitude of insignificant not doings that work together to create a perceived accident and system failure…

PLEASE CONSIDER?

PEACE…


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## moss (Aug 31, 2006)

Great post Jarrah, thanks for putting the effort in. I hope this puts to rest any ideas about leaving climbing ropes in trees for extended periods of time. As others have mentioned, using a tag line is so easy, there's no point in leaving the rope up. The small downside is... I recently had a new tagline (nylon black line) break as I was pulling my rope up, after being in a tree for only a month. The tree is a mature Honey Locust with thin canopy leaf density Appears to be UV damage, the tagline was brittle, no indication of animal chewing.

I use a mountaineering static rope for SRT tree entry with mechanical ascenders and rappel with a Grigri. I assume you have no objection to that use in trees.
-moss


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 31, 2006)

Jarrah,

Thanks for putting the time into making a long reply. your varied experiences in many rope disciplines are valuable. I'd like to pick your brain and help me understand some things a little better.

The only non-arbo rope that I have ever used for climbing trees is New England KMIII 3/8" and 7/16" dia. static line. In almost all climbs now I use the 7/16" for an access line. If I'm going straight back down the rope I'll use some piece of descent gear. I've got many tools but usually keep an I'd in my kit bag. I quit using figure eights fifteen years ago. Occasionally I'll use a Munter on an HMS biner.

Off and on for several years I've tried to find a hitch that will work for ascent and descent on KMIII. Some work reasonably well but nothing is as smooth as a DdRT setup. You've expressed reservations about using friction hitches on non-arbo rope because of the heat buildup that could damage the sheath of the rope. I'm puzzled how any more heat would build up in the rope using a hitch or using a descending too. In any climb that I've done the hitch will get warm on an SRT descent if I go too fast. Easy enough to slow down. In my observation it's the hitch that is taking the wear and tear not the rope. Many people, mistakenly, think that a Munter will harm a rope because of the rope on rope. This isn't the case since the rope is moving. The potential for damage comes when the climber, and the rope, stop. There is a possiblity of the builtup heat scorching the rope. The same idea fits for using friction hitches as far as I can see.

Please don't take this as a challenge to start a debate. I'm always trying to understand how to use rope systems better. There is so much to learn from other working rope disciplines.

Friends of mine in Germany were doing a job, in the rain, one day when they noticed a fellow standing off to the side. when they got down to the ground and the jobsite was stabilized the fellow walked up to them to chat. He was very impressed with how they were using friction hitches. The fellow introduced himself...Mr., or should I say, Herr Bachmann...yes 'that' Bachmann! They all had a good talk and are going to get together some more friction hitch research. Bachmann said that arbos have a better understanding of rope on rope friction than any other rope discipline. Our DdRT climbing system has been a repository of all of the knowledge that isn't used in the other rope disciplines where tools have become standard fare because they work better...for the most part [Let's not get sidetracked into a debate about this for now !]
 
To finish up, and get back on topic, I would probably not leave a rope in a tree in a rodent area for longer than a couple of days. Too easy to set a throwline. Climbing on wet ropes is more of a concern to me than critter or UV damage. Also, I use some sort of false crotch so I'm concerned about damage or loss of my Rope Guide or FC.


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## arboralliance (Aug 31, 2006)

*Again, please consider...*



moss said:


> Great post Jarrah, thanks for putting the effort in. I hope this puts to rest any ideas about leaving climbing ropes in trees for extended periods of time. As others have mentioned, using a tag line is so easy, there's no point in leaving the rope up. The small downside is... I recently had a new tagline (nylon black line) break as I was pulling my rope up, after being in a tree for only a month. The tree is a mature Honey Locust with thin canopy leaf density Appears to be UV damage, the tagline was brittle, no indication of animal chewing.
> 
> I use a mountaineering static rope for SRT tree entry with mechanical ascenders and rappel with a Grigri. I assume you have no objection to that use in trees.
> -moss



Thank you moss, I hold my breath on this one vainly hoping the big boys will comment...

I used a similar system extensively moss, (naturally laughed at here by all the big names in the industry) the gri-gri is a smart piece of hardware (when not set front to back as I have seen done on the rock) a shame it cannot release smoothly at all angles out from the point of attachment or it would be the perfect belay/friction device for tree work... 

It still amazes me we use a friction hitch in our systems to rappel or abseil or descend on as it theoretically is a system, by its nature/design destined to fail in descend mode...That being why the blakes created with/on 1/2" Arb' rope, is, as I see it, the most suitable friction hitch to use currently...

moss, I have been meaning to p.m. you for a few reasons... 

One of which is my concern for your use of mechanical ascenders without back up fall arrest on SRT or the like... 

As you know, mechanical ascenders have a non fixed, non locking cam that "bites" on the rope and if for any reason this was to dislodge and the rope to come free from the ascender (very easily happening just as is the method for removing the ascender from the rope) what is stopping you from becoming inverted (if you have a lower fall arrest device within your system) or falling to ground? I know some or most ascenders can allow for a 'biner to be passed through behind the cammed lobe to prevent opening (and that 'biner then potentially be used to "assist" lift of the ascender) but still, what would it take to wrap in a prussic above the ascent device/s system for back up? 

I know for sure what it costs...

I would climb or ascend on a prussic or mechanical ascent device of one type or another set above a gri-gri and pull up the tail through the gri-gri as I stood up so the gri-gri was always in the system as my primary attachment to the rope and then i could aslo use it (gri-gri) imediately to move around the canopy and then comfortably and relatively safely descend on the gri-gri without having to transfer over to another system... As mentioned loosely above this could not accommodate any significant limb walks for a host of reasons and i mainly used it for long accents on taller trees where minimal limb walking was required...

(There are a few alternatives to this gri-gri method which would make it very easy to foot lock into the tree however slow as it incorporates a split reduction system...)

Besdies all that moss I am very keen to discuss recreational climbing with you and its anomolies and progression in the States as I formulate a trainning sylybus here inline with my projections of a soon to be blossoming sporting activity...

_(Have I become a nemesis of the rope access realm here?)_


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## arboralliance (Aug 31, 2006)

*Again...*

Tom, greetings and salutations...

It is nearly 3:30 a.m. and I have Dendro's Electra at ransom and have not been duely responding to his creators jibe as to ongoing scripting and Bris' 2011 is steaming upon us!! Ha!

Will respond after shut eye...

Tom, a huge response was formulated in the last couple of hours to your post but I must retire, proof and post in daylight...

Guy, Electra is on the mission but don't quote me (or Yoda for that matter) on that...! Ha!


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## moss (Aug 31, 2006)

arboralliance said:


> moss, I have been meaning to p.m. you for a few reasons...
> 
> One of which is my concern for your use of mechanical ascenders without back up fall arrest on SRT or the like...
> 
> As you know, mechanical ascenders have a non fixed, non locking cam that "bites" on the rope and if for any reason this was to dislodge and the rope to come free from the ascender (very easily happening just as is the method for removing the ascender from the rope) what is stopping you from becoming inverted (if you have a lower fall arrest device within your system) or falling to ground? I know some or most ascenders can allow for a 'biner to be passed through behind the cammed lobe to prevent opening (and that 'biner then potentially be used to "assist" lift of the ascender) but still, what would it take to wrap in a prussic above the ascent device/s system for back up?



You're not the first who has commented on this. I appreciate your concern. I'll hijack this thread only briefly. In the photo I think you can see my SRT ascending setup. Two seperate Petzl ascenders (right and left). The left ascender has my footloops attached. Both ascenders are attached to the same ring on my saddle bridge, above my waist. Should either ascender fail the other will hold me reasonably upright (short of doing chest attachment). The cord is 5mm New England Ropes Tech Cord (technora 5000 lb. tensile) tied in a loop joined w/ double fisherman's and girth hitched on both ends. I've sculpted epoxy filler (PC-7) onto the attachment point where the cord attaches to the ascender creating a non-structural (but very strong) round and super smooth (sanded very fine) cross section so the ascender won't wear or cut the cord. It's held up very well, showing no degradation and the cord is as happy as cord can be. I think I've covered everything that people have commented on safety-wise.

An additional prussik over the top ascender would amount to a 2nd back-up, do you think this is needed? I have nothing against but don't want to add anything that's not actually useful.

Just a note, whenever I get into a situation where I'm going off the vertical plane SRT I add a biner at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in. I'm a newbie SRT climber. In about 10 climbs that I've made I'm noticing that attention paid to each ascender as I push it up and transfer weight is probably my best insurance. For instance I always make sure the cam is engaged on the rope before transferring weight. Even if the spring broke I could thumb the cam into position as I load the rope. I've learned this because I've accidentally thumbed the cam the other way so that it won't grab the rope. This can happen even if the cam is still locked in I've changed my hand position on the ascender so that my thumb is not contacting the cam "thumb" when I push the ascender up. Paying attention to the little things makes all the difference.


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## arboralliance (Sep 1, 2006)

*Thank you again...*

(All temperature measurements are in Celsius …)

(These are my thoughts only unless otherwise stated, I am not giving advice in any of my previous or future posts just stating opinions based on careful thought and experience/s…)

G’day Tom. As you would know the nature of the/a friction hitch encapsulates heat (this is how it arrests descent) which can be seen in the glazing sometimes found on the internal diameter/wall of the hitch wrap assembly and also in the heat felt in ones hand around the friction hitch when descending… (Also another reason to not climb on wet rope with friction hitches...They lose some capacity to act as a friction device due to the heat transference effect of the water.)

This, in the instance of rated sheath Arb’ rope is not as great an issue as the Arb' rope sheath has the density/thickness and internal or core structure (being non woven) and weave configuration (12 or 16 strand) to dissipate the heat as the hitch rests on the line whence stopped descending motion/movement despite whether extended or short descents of fast or slow speed...

(I will always release my hitch immediately upon alighting on the ground to prevent points of heat fatigue culminating on/in the rope as one would or should with a mechanical device also.) 

As I see it, IMHO more heat is generated in mountaineering rope for a number of reasons;

1. mountaineering rope being of thinner multiple layers (and multiple “multiple” layers in the classic 48 strand “kern” or sheaths woven construction), the design of mountaineering rope better traps heat (as can be also observed using the analogy of multi layering recommended in clothing layering for warmth retention) also invariably the combination of substances to make the mountaineering rope more resistant to the elements makes it more susceptible to generating heat under friction. 

(if the common however thin 48 strand “polyester” sheath the melting point is at *260 deg’ then potentially the inner core has already begun to melt having a melting temp’ of *210 deg’ the heat trapped inside the hitch loops/wraps can only transfer into the centre of the hitch before radiating out again surely also considering, and you recently pointed this out Tom the fact that correct rappel technique in hitch usage is to have one hand over the hitch and or slightly above, further insulating the heat in the friction hitch.)

2. if you look at how nylon is made and its progression from a viscose entity to a seemingly solid object will clearly (or should) inform you of the fallacy that is the apparent solid substance of nylon (or any rope material for that mater, we only use rope as it is light and flexible it is however not resistant to heat considering the melt point temps…) and therefore what little it takes to return to a viscose state. 

3rdly Once again I refer to the super thin sheath on mountaineering rope covering the structurally integral inner core i.e. what might glaze either slightly or even severely an Arb’ rope sheath would clearly and easily melt and therefore strip the sheath off of mountaineering rope.

(Tom I wont discus the Munter here as it is a sliding arrest system through the ropes own length on a ‘biner, the biner able to more efficiently dissipate heat due to its mass and melt point temp of (Aluminium) being 1600 degrees+ C’, where as the melt point of rope is *(Nylon) 210 degrees which will be far more quickly reached when mated to, in sliding friction, a substance of similar texture and melt point. HOWEVER Tom, two or more locking gate biners should be used when using the Munter as I am sure you are aware...* http://www.justsail.com/rmaterial.htm)

Tom, what I see as critical is;

A. The melt point temperature.

-YET ALSO – 

B. The capacity, through wall/thread/weave configuration and thickness or mass, for this temperature to be dissipated…


The test as I see it is to take varying prussic loops and test them close to failure in controlled situations with back up fall arrest … What you may notice is that the 1/2” Arb’ rope does not glaze nearly as readily as the 7 – 8 or 9mm mountaineering cordage used for prussic line/loops and or the larger 3/8” – 7/16” mountaineering lines with there thin sheath/s… (Let’s not get into the heat resistant cordage here as it has its own draw backs in many regards…)

(AN EXTRACT IN REGARD TO BLOG POSTINGS RELATING TO DAN OSMANS DEATH TAKEN FROM THE LINK BELOW (An extreme case none the less)):

http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/41237

“Subject: My Dan Osman Rope Failure Analysis 
From: Chris Harmston <[email protected]> 
Newsgroups: rec.climbing 
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:09:11 -0600 
I think it is time I spoke up publicly. I have reviewed Dano's rope in 
some detail. My findings and theory support those published by Kevin 
Worrall in Climbing (No 183, March 1999, Pg 90). 
This statement is mine personally and NOT that of Black Diamond Equipment! 
This is obvious as you read below. 
Irrelevant Background: 
I am a Materials Engineer with BS degrees in Physics and Materials 
Engineering and a ME in Materials Engineering (I nearly finished a PhD but 
bailed once I learned I did not enjoy being a scientist any longer). I 
know lots about atomic layer semiconductor crystal growth. I have been 
the Quality Assurance Manager for Black Diamond Equipment for 6 years. My 
primary responsibility is the testing and analysis of climbing equipment,

~ /// ~ (He reports on in the cut body of the report about his own (the authors) climbing prowess, impressive as it may be but below is the crux)

What is to be learned from this accident? NEVER LET NYLON SLIDE AGAINST 
NYLON! You should already know this. 
I also know that Dano's rigging setup was reviewed by more than a couple 
of technically competent people. I also know that he tested it multiple 
times. I personally do not think that what Dan was doing (when done 
properly as he had done on earlier jumps) was any more dangerous than 
modern ice climbers doing hard thin ice routes (like in Maple Canyon and 
elsewhere), in fact his setup was most likely safer in my personal 
opinion. Dan's death was a tragedy and an accident. 
Again, this summary is mine personally and not that of Black Diamond. 
Chris Harmston ([email protected]). 
Quality Assurance Manager. Materials Engineer BS, ME. 
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. 
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552 
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal 
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.”


Another point I would like to make if I may is the fact that rope can weaken by up to 15% or more when wet (with clean cold water).

Also, caming ascent devices are not rated to arrest fall of any distance or type i.e. the caming lobe by its nature will likely cut (melt etc) the sheath/rope if a fall of any distance is taken by/on it…

I must say Tom I am very impressed with your story as I have always admired and preferred the Bachmann for a number of reasons and would see it as being a great alternative or addition to moss' already efficient system/s...

Moss, my comments and concern were formulated after literally hours of studying your photos on the web over the last few months (lovely drawings/paintings by the way) and I would reiterate firstly;

as you may know, every, all and any bend in rope reduces the strength of the rope by a significant percentage, a 90 degree bend in theory reduces the strength of the rope by half, please re-assess your system and surmise the real strength within its complexity based on the bend ratios present... (Read the manufacturers recommendations on ascender device usage moss, please...)

Moss, at no stage within your ascent system are you in a closed loop with the rope by the very nature of the ascent devices being unable to lock or clasp around the rope... (Or your not wanting to lock them in place...Why don't you have that "going off the vertical plane" biner in place at all times?)

The ascent devices were not designed or intended to be a sole attachment device so another looped or locked device should be in place... 

You are I am sure an astute and aware climber however all eyes are on you and you or others may one day in one moment not be as alert and therefore a resulting incident could occur, would you concur?

Moss I respect yours and Toms work greatly and honor our age difference but I see clearly through my own experiences how careful we need to be under watchful eye's...

I would not leave a rope in a tree unless I was there with it, if I absolutely had to for any reason I would rigorously inspect it before climbing on it again…

Uneven wear on rope surely must be the fore most cause of rope failure in normal working conditions and this I would surmise is due to inconsistent use and maintenance of the rope allowing for “weak spots” to develop along the length…

Surely leaving a rope out in a tree, particularly unattended, would only increase the already high risk involved in our profession/s...

I could go on, I apologize if I have offended anyone and for high jacking this thread…


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## Tom Dunlap (Sep 1, 2006)

I remember following chatter about DAn Osman on RC.com for a while. Then, following along after his death too. His use of rope on rope friction was so far on the extreme end to almost not be considered. 

Since there are cords available for hitches that are very durable and have high melting points I've used them. My favorite is HRC but I've used Beeline and Technora, the burgundy stuff from Sherrill, too. My ropes never glaze but the cords do and get retired. There is a good thread on ******** about retiring hitch cords and some observational guidelines that climbers have developed. 

I think that I'm one of the few climbers who is even messing around with SRT in trees using hitches. In a way, operating in a realm that is populated with as many people as Dan O was. Of course, I'm not operating in the same extreme mode. When I descend, especially on SRT, I do it very slow and gentle. I'll save my bail out descents for the time that I might run into bees. When I have tested knots for grip/release on a faster descent I feel the heat of the hitch and rope with my cheek to get a sense of how hot they get. I'll stop, do a temp check then slide down a couple of inches to recheck the rope. In both cases I have never sensed a 'heat sink' effect.

Given the radius of the biner compared to the cord I have no problem with the efficiency loss. After reading about pull tests of many knots in many cords the fail point is not at the attachment unless it is a 'knife edge' radius relative to the cord.

Good to have this discussion.


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## treeseer (Sep 1, 2006)

Jarrah tho I have little interest in gear chat now I know why I checked this thread:

1. to nag you further on Electra--you have written a whole book here!

2. To make me think further about my use of mtneeriing rope on most trees. I knew abrasion was an issue, now I know some other issues. Thanks


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## moss (Sep 1, 2006)

Ok, all good points, I could be convinced to put a small, rated screwlink at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in

I'll try putting a prusik above my top ascender, see how it works out. If doesn't get in the way then I have a safer system. I'm still confused though, doesn't two separate ascenders attached above the waist equal a backed up system? I've asked this before and never got a clear answer. Is the answer that at the moment I'm moving an ascender up the other ascender is not backed up?

For the cord ascender attachment and the girth hitch here's my unscientific capacity estimate. If the cord is 5000 lb. tensile and I double it with a closed loop I've more or less doubled the capacity of the cord. Subtract strength loss due to double fisherman's, subtract strength loss due to girth hitch on each end, my guess is that I'm still over or at 6500 lb. tensile for the attachment. I weigh 130 lb. dripping wet so I'm well within the 10:1 safety factor for life support gear.
-moss


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## arboralliance (Sep 2, 2006)

*Consider...*



moss said:


> Ok, all good points, I could be convinced to put a small, rated screwlink at the top of the ascender to lock the rope in
> 
> I'll try putting a prusik above my top ascender, see how it works out. If doesn't get in the way then I have a safer system. I'm still confused though, doesn't two separate ascenders attached above the waist equal a backed up system? I've asked this before and never got a clear answer. Is the answer that at the moment I'm moving an ascender up the other ascender is not backed up?
> 
> ...




both fall factor and the *TOTAL* bends in each attachment end...

The ascent device is not locked off or does not entirely encapsulate the rope *AND* is by its nature a cutting/caming device once again fall arrest and fall factor rates need to be acounted for and carefully considered...:deadhorse: 

Thank you moss, i am impressed with your openess and willingness to hear me out... A great example you set in all your undertakings may we all follow your lead...

Guy, electra is coming, she became inverted in a climb off and had to self rescue, she is a bit shaken up but will be with us shortly...She is greatful for your concern and for the flowers Dendro sent however asked that Codit not send any more poetry...:hmm3grin2orange:


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## B-Edwards (Sep 3, 2006)

Guess you guys havent heard of the Siberian rope chewing rodent. It only comes out at night in search of synthetic ropes to chew. Some of these rodents have developed wings so as to keep thier search for ropes aloft. In a remote site in Siberia these rodents have attacked aborists on more than 1 occasion while seeking the wonderful synthetic rope. It is also recomended to take your rope out of the tree at night so as not to cause the spread of these rodents to other parts of the world. Hopes this helps.


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## Fireaxman (Sep 9, 2006)

B-Edwards said:


> Guess you guys havent heard of the Siberian rope chewing rodent. ....



It is not necessary to invent a new rodent to find a creature that chews on ropes. I am telling you, the common Grey Squirrel, Sciurus caroliniensis, is perfectly capable. OK, I do not have a picture of a certified squirrel chewed rope. But I can offer this.

Arborists' ropes are commonly made of synthetic polyester, a plastic. The steps on this ladder are plastic, not much different than the material ropes are made of. Grey squirrels dont eat plastic? Maybe not, but they certainly gave the steps on this ladder a hard time for some reason. Exercising their jaws, sharpening their teeth, or collecting material for their nest maybe. This ladder is kept in a carport in an area with a high population of common grey squirrels. Grey squirrels did this, I saw them chewing on it.

I would advise against leaving your ropes hanging overnight in a tree in this neighborhood.


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## geofore (Sep 10, 2006)

*leaving ropes out*

The small critters go for salt, even a rake or shovel aren't safe, they chew the handles if you get sweat on it. A little bit of salt on it and they'll chew it.


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## moss (Sep 10, 2006)

geofore said:


> The small critters go for salt, even a rake or shovel aren't safe, they chew the handles if you get sweat on it. A little bit of salt on it and they'll chew it.



Good point! Never thought to make the connection. Porcupines are famous for eating wooden tool handles. Herbivores in general are always looking for sources of minerals and salts not available in their regular diet. That's why deer antlers on the forest floor don't last too long, voles, mice, chipmunks and squirrels will knaw them down to nothing to get valuable calcium and other minerals. Every time you handle your rope you're adding delicious salts and minerals into the strands.
-moss


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## Yeahman (Sep 18, 2006)

*"Life" line*

what's a couple of minutes everyday?


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## Sunrise Guy (Oct 15, 2006)

No disrespect meant, honestly, but this is one of the goofiest posts I've ever read in here. I would never leave a rope in a tree, overnight or for longer than I'm actively using it. I have string lines in all of the trees on my property that enable me to pull my ropes up anytime I wish to climb. If you honestly can't spare the two minutes it takes to pull your lines up, brother, your life needs serious reorganizing! I don't care if there are no baddies out in your neck of the woods that may nibble on your line. Any number of things might happen while you're not watching your line, or at least active nearby. Kids do strange things, some animals might do the same. Some freaky occurrence might compromise the safety of your line. Remember, it's your life line. Is your life so unimportant to you that you won't take a stupidly simple measure to safeguard it by simply taking down your line when you're done climbing? Good luck, man.


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## rmihalek (Oct 16, 2006)

I see what you mean Sunrise Guy; it's not just a rope, it's a life line.

I wanted to ask the question to stimulate some discussion and also to learn something new. As I said in the original post, I use tag lines and don't leave my rope in the tree, but was soliciting opinions from others more experienced in this matter.

What about Moss' idea of tying the rope into a loop and then running the whole loop through your hands prior to a climb? Of course, this would only work for DdRT or DRT, but it sounds like a safe way to proceed, especially if there was a tricky/difficult placement of a cambium saver.


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## Chucky (Oct 28, 2006)

All the posts advising against leaving a rope in a tree certainly seem to have merit, but I've got a True Blue line I've had in a tree out back going on three years continuously, and I still climb on it. Squirrels run all over the tree.

Jerry Beranak had left a rope in a Redwood tree and several years later retrieved it, tested its tensile strength, only to find it maintained a surprisingly large percentage of its integrity.

It seems inert substances like plastic, polyester, nylon, and polypropylene are amazingly resistant to both biotic and abiotic agents of degradation, which is why at the store I bag with paper, not plastic.

Still, I wouldn't recommend anyone to leave a rope in a tree for more than a few days, because after all spending a few minutes repositioning your line is hardly worth imperiling your life.


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## arboralliance (Oct 28, 2006)

rmihalek said:


> I see what you mean Sunrise Guy; it's not just a rope, it's a life line.
> 
> I wanted to ask the question to stimulate some discussion and also to learn something new. As I said in the original post, I use tag lines and don't leave my rope in the tree, but was soliciting opinions from others more experienced in this matter.
> 
> What about Moss' idea of tying the rope into a loop and then running the whole loop through your hands prior to a climb? Of course, this would only work for DdRT or DRT, but it sounds like a safe way to proceed, especially if there was a tricky/difficult placement of a cambium saver.





> All the posts advising against leaving a rope in a tree certainly seem to have merit, but I've got a True Blue line I've had in a tree out back going on three years continuously, and I still climb on it. Squirrels run all over the tree.
> 
> Jerry Beranak had left a rope in a Redwood tree and several years later retrieved it, tested its tensile strength, only to find it maintained a surprisingly large percentage of its integrity.
> 
> ...



Yep, a 60, 90 or 200 foot rope sitting in a tree and the sun shines on one spot for 6-8 hrs a day every day, the "spot" is only 3" long or less; further down a fungal infection/bloom has occurred inside the ropes fibers causing a chemical reaction and yet again on another tiny section of rope a mammal has been urinating every day slowly dissolving the "plastic rope (a far cry from the same construction of a plastic bag); none of these "elements" could you "discover" in a quick (yes the "inspections" we do are "quick") inspection of the rope....

(How does rope then degrade in a tree Chucky and if it does, which it does, how then is this process exempt from aceleration under prime conditions...)

Chucky, you seem to have contradicted yourself and made claims of sincere grandiosity with no factual evidence or reference to written data to back them up, what is the go with this? 

How did Jerry "test" his rope? What section of his rope did he test? Where was the rope placed within the structure of the trees extremities? All these questions apply to your rope also placed in a tree?

Why not bag with hesian at the store and re-use it every time you go to the store instead of perpetuating the wanton slaying of trees to create your one use "paper" bag...


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## jmack (Oct 29, 2006)

rmihalek said:


> Is there any downside to leaving my climbing rope in the tree over night or even for a few days? I climb in my yard, so there's little risk of theft, but I was wondering if it's known whether squirrels like to chew on the rope or anything like that.
> 
> What I've been doing so far is to pull the climbing line down while at the same time sending a tag line up so then the next day I just have to pull my climbing line back up. It's not a big deal, but it takes another few minutes out of an already tight afternoon schedule.
> 
> ...


take the bags off your slick line throw line send it up instead, now snap out of it and take your life line with you or i will climb up to the crotch and sprinkle battery acid , gasoline and be generally unkind to your rope cuz yer not there!


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## Grizzly (Oct 30, 2006)

rmihalek said:


> Is there any downside to leaving my climbing rope in the tree over night or even for a few days? I climb in my yard, so there's little risk of theft, but I was wondering if it's known whether squirrels like to chew on the rope or anything like that.
> 
> What I've been doing so far is to pull the climbing line down while at the same time sending a tag line up so then the next day I just have to pull my climbing line back up. It's not a big deal, but it takes another few minutes out of an already tight afternoon schedule.
> 
> ...



I had a rope tied arround a branch that was going to come down the the next day adn by the time I got back the next morning, the rope was still there, but after the branch came down and my ground crew had to untie the rope, I ended coming down and fiddleing arround with it for about 10 minutes. what a pain. I learned that if your not ready to take it down yet, don't tie it up, take all your gear and tools home; clean and sharpen everything and get there as early as posible.


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## (WLL) (Nov 1, 2006)

rmihalek said:


> Is there any downside to leaving my climbing rope in the tree over night or even for a few days? I climb in my yard, so there's little risk of theft, but I was wondering if it's known whether squirrels like to chew on the rope or anything like that.
> 
> What I've been doing so far is to pull the climbing line down while at the same time sending a tag line up so then the next day I just have to pull my climbing line back up. It's not a big deal, but it takes another few minutes out of an already tight afternoon schedule.
> 
> ...



Make more time to climb. Practice with the throw ball. Set and reset yor life line all the time. Use friction savers and take ur time, lots of time. Speed comes with knowage. Do not rush and have much patience.


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## Grizzly (Nov 9, 2006)

When you lock tieing up a rope, do you wrap the rop e arround your foot and then over your other foot to creat a lock or do I have it all wrong?


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## arboralliance (Nov 10, 2006)

*Well...*



Grizzly said:


> When you lock tieing up a rope, do you wrap the rop e arround your foot and then over your other foot to creat a lock or do I have it all wrong?


You can do it that way Grizzly. 

If I understand you correctly I would warn that it is slower than the standard way which from my understanding is for the rope to run vertically down and on the outside edge of one foot (let us call this the primary foot, in my case my left foot) then kick in under that primary foot by hooking the outside edge of the other foot (being my right foot and secondary foot) bringing the secondary foot then up level with the primary foot which will cause the rope to drape over that secondary foot and come under the primary foot then bringing the secondary foot up over the top of the primary foot and pressing it down on top of the primary foot which in turn creates a virtual full wrap around the primary foot and a virtually full but untended or non-bound wrap on the secondary foot which in turn if the primary foot is held rigid and the secondary foot is pressed down hard on the primary foot, enough friction to clamp the rope enabling you to then virtually stand up on this binding of rope and two feet HOWEVER I also, to create further friction and more acute clamp pressure and binding, whence raising the secondary foot (right foot for moi) turn my right foot toes hard to the left and pass them behind or between my left leg and the rope so as to then fully entrap the left or primary foot in a complete loop of rope ensuring a more secure clamp on the rope...

I do this as I have previously broken bones and torn ligaments in both ankles and torn ligaments in both knees so cant apply enough pressure the standard way to "stand" on the rope in that method...

I hope this helps, if you would like a photographic rendition of this explanation please let me know and I will put something together asap...

All the best,

Jarrah


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## woodchux (Nov 10, 2006)

Squirrels chewed through the hydraulic lines on my bucket truck. Those little rats will surely eat a rope if left in the tree.


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## Grizzly (Nov 11, 2006)

as complicated as you implied it I just need to know how to avoid the pain tha I got on my primary foot towards the pinkey toe and the arch of the foot. Is there qa foot plat or suport that makes it easier to climb and not hurt you feet and how can I make my precent shorter so when I go to repell or climb up a tree.


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## arboralliance (Nov 11, 2006)

*Um, excuse me...*



Grizzly said:


> as complicated as you implied it I just need to know how to avoid the pain tha I got on my primary foot towards the pinkey toe and the arch of the foot. Is there qa foot plat or suport that makes it easier to climb and not hurt you feet and how can I make my precent shorter so when I go to repell or climb up a tree.


I buy boots that have what is called a "shank" in them this is a rigid piece within the sole of the boot that assists in keeping the sole of the boot stiff therefore placing less pressure on your feet...

It also sounds like possibly the rope is too far forward on your foot when you foot lock but I am only guesticulating...

Keep the questions comming...


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