# Topping over a house - Video - Feedback requested on how to improve.



## cdobler (May 28, 2012)

I was doing a normal takedown on the weekend and normally I am able to drop the top without tying it in. This time I tied the top as I knew I would have problems directing it away from the house. Skip to the 40 second mark on the video and see the takedown. Everything went ok, but I was rocked around a bit when the top caught on the tied in rope. I was wondering if there would be any suggestions on how to improve this takedown?

Tree Falling N Van May 26 2012.wmv - YouTube


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## Zale (May 28, 2012)

Tell your crew to put the beer down, go home, sober up and come back tomorrow and learn how to run ropes.


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## beastmaster (May 28, 2012)

That wasn't even that bad really. If they had let it run some it would of been nothing. I hate working with an inexperienced crew if I am catching pieces like that. More then one climbers been killed because a piece wasn't allowed to run. While you might not get killed, its no fun when your really get servery wiped around like a coyote in a road runner cartoon because your crew don't know what their doing. It's all fun and games tell some one gets hurt. A piece falling then stopping suddenly also puts a lot of stress on the rope, lowing it WLL a lot.
I left a job I loved because the ground guys were idiots and I felt put my life in danger while doing big pine removals. It's no joking matter.
I have never used it, but I think I would be using some of that dyasorp(SP?) rope if I had to work with inexperienced beer drinking ground guys and was doing many drop and catches. Good luck.

PS could you of skid it?(zip line)


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## no tree to big (May 28, 2012)

let it run!

did you just tie a length of rope to the top and tie the other end to the spar? just wondering cause at the end of the vid the top is still hanging... 

porty with a block up top let that baby burn to the ground like this Tree Removal - Blocking down a spar - YouTube
but when your up on a skinny pole let it run a little further and slow it down a bit more gradual 

fir top - YouTube


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## superjunior (May 28, 2012)

yepper, block and porty with a guy on the ground who knows whats up = smooth sailing for the climber..


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## cdobler (May 29, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> That wasn't even that bad really. If they had let it run some it would of been nothing. I hate working with an inexperienced crew if I am catching pieces like that. More then one climbers been killed because a piece wasn't allowed to run. While you might not get killed, its no fun when your really get servery wiped around like a coyote in a road runner cartoon because your crew don't know what their doing. It's all fun and games tell some one gets hurt. A piece falling then stopping suddenly also puts a lot of stress on the rope, lowing it WLL a lot.
> I left a job I loved because the ground guys were idiots and I felt put my life in danger while doing big pine removals. It's no joking matter.
> I have never used it, but I think I would be using some of that dyasorp(SP?) rope if I had to work with inexperienced beer drinking ground guys and was doing many drop and catches. Good luck.
> 
> PS could you of skid it?(zip line)



Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback!! For me I think I can eventually get the blocking done right, but I agree with the ground crew they need to be more attentive.


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## benn (Jun 1, 2012)

hire a pro next time.


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## murphy4trees (Jun 2, 2012)

get yourself the tree climbers companion by Jeff Jepson... shows you how to tie a block with cow or timber hitch. Line gets tied to top with clover hitch locked with 2 half hitches or a half hitch backed up with a running bowline.. Never cut one handed and push with the other... learn how to make a clean notch and back cut to control the movement of the piece. Drop the saw , then push with 2 hands if needed.. If you cut a narrow humboldt notch instead of an open face or traditional, there will be a lot less "pull", that is force to sway the top. As the narrow notch closes early, before the piece gets too much lean.. its all that lean, when it stops for a moment when the face closes and before the hinge breaks, that causes so much movement in the top.. Keep the block close to the cut, & use a line with a lot of stretch (ie Sampson's true blue).. These are things you can control as the climber. Most important factor is certainly how well the groundman lets the piece run, however, that is not necessarily something you can control. 

You have no idea of the amount of force that can be built up when dropping large loads on a static line, which is basically what you did.. the force multipliers on that cut were big.. you got away with it because the piece was relatively light.. don't try that again... If there was some hidden defect in the trunk, that much force could cause the tree to fail easily!!! Learn all the above stuff as though your life depends on it, becasue it does!!!!


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## lxt (Jun 2, 2012)

Yeah & then once you do what Murphy says to but cant, then you can start dropping trees in one shot onto roads, walls, dog boxes, sheds & other ornamentals prized by the home owner.

Hell, maybe you could borrow Murphs skid steer operator & just start up-rooting trees, LOL




LXT...........


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## Scrat (Jun 4, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> get yourself the tree climbers companion by Jeff Jepson... shows you how to tie a block with cow or timber hitch. Line gets tied to top with clover hitch locked with 2 half hitches or a half hitch backed up with a running bowline.. Never cut one handed and push with the other... learn how to make a clean notch and back cut to control the movement of the piece. Drop the saw , then push with 2 hands if needed.. If you cut a narrow humboldt notch instead of an open face or traditional, there will be a lot less "pull", that is force to sway the top. As the narrow notch closes early, before the piece gets too much lean.. its all that lean, when it stops for a moment when the face closes and before the hinge breaks, that causes so much movement in the top.. Keep the block close to the cut, & use a line with a lot of stretch (ie Sampson's true blue).. These are things you can control as the climber. Most important factor is certainly how well the groundman lets the piece run, however, that is not necessarily something you can control.
> 
> You have no idea of the amount of force that can be built up when dropping large loads on a static line, which is basically what you did.. the force multipliers on that cut were big.. you got away with it because the piece was relatively light.. don't try that again... If there was some hidden defect in the trunk, that much force could cause the tree to fail easily!!! Learn all the above stuff as though your life depends on it, becasue it does!!!!



X2- I agree with Morph's advice. and really if the groundies are not helpful and paying attention now, consider how useless they would be in an emergency if you were to get hurt up there......
be safe
Scrat


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## murphy4trees (Jun 4, 2012)

he can't expect the groundies to know what they are doing, when he doesn't know himself.. This is a tough industry to be self taught in.. better to get a job with a good company and learn what you can there, before going it on your own. Seems like didn't even know that a piece could be lowered by a ground man.. Get the tree climber's companion.. watch my efficiency in removal video... Efficiency in Tree Removal Devon PA 19333.mov - YouTube


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## Zale (Jun 4, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> he can't expect the groundies to know what they are doing, when he doesn't know himself.. This is a tough industry to be self taught in.. better to get a job with a good company and learn what you can there, before going it on your own. Seems like didn't even know that a piece could be lowered by a ground man.. Get the tree climber's companion.. watch my efficiency in removal video... Efficiency in Tree Removal Devon PA 19333.mov - YouTube



Nothing like a shameless plug.


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## lxt (Jun 4, 2012)

Efficient????? shameless plug indeed! Please Murph.....more videos & tutorials about tree work, your skills are just too good to not be filmed & broadcast, please show us more, we just cant get enough of your second rate antics & the laughter it brings us all is just too good.

show us the one where your skid steer operator darn near breaks the tree off during the cut...or, or the one where you canopy swipe every tree in the yard during a felling operation! Yep, maybe you should buy & read the climbers companion!!! sound advice you should use instead of give!



LXT..........


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## NCTREE (Jun 4, 2012)

give it a ####ing rest already, you haven't showed us anything that proves you to be some tree hero. I want to see lxt's skills come on lets see! Untill then you should keep it zipped up cause your just a loud mouth think you know it all s.o.b. lxt can talk a big talk but he cant back it up! HUH worthless!


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## pinemartin (Jun 4, 2012)

The use of a porta-wrap and letting the top run is good advice. The only thing I can add is you might want to try putting in a taller notch and leaving more hinge wood that way the top swings down more instead of jumping so far off to the side, this way you get more down force and less side force which means a little smoother ride.


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## murphy4trees (Jun 5, 2012)

pinemartin said:


> The use of a porta-wrap and letting the top run is good advice. The only thing I can add is you might want to try putting in a taller notch and leaving more hinge wood that way the top swings down more instead of jumping so far off to the side, this way you get more down force and less side force which means a little smoother ride.


By "taller" notch do you mean open face, that is wider... If so that is exactly wrong.. early separation is the way to reduce sway, meaning a narrow humboldt... once the piece starts moving, the more it goes, the more force it's going to put on the stem..


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## limbwalker54 (Jun 5, 2012)

Well now, I think I'm just going to go get some work done......
 on

You guys have fun with this one.


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## lxt (Jun 5, 2012)

NCTREE said:


> give it a ####ing rest already, you haven't showed us anything that proves you to be some tree hero. I want to see lxt's skills come on lets see! Untill then you should keep it zipped up cause your just a loud mouth think you know it all s.o.b. lxt can talk a big talk but he cant back it up! HUH worthless!



well my lil eastern ball bag, I have posted plenty on here, Pics with all the trimmings............prolly before you even found the site! talk about a loud mouth nutpump, weres your pics big boy?, wheres your equipment? I posted showing my #### but havent seen any of yours.

So Ill zip it when you have half as much time in this trade as me, your resume in this trade would be laughable at best, do a search ass wad & you`ll find pics, etc... I dont feel the need to brag or think im a teacher to all, I posted & showed my salt to practice posting pics................Now how bout you #### bag.



LXT............


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## lxt (Jun 5, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> By "taller" notch do you mean open face, that is wider... If so that is exactly wrong.. early separation is the way to reduce sway, meaning a narrow humboldt... once the piece starts moving, the more it goes, the more force it's going to put on the stem..



Im not sure if I totally agree with this or not, I have actually "butt hung" very large chunks of the spar using snap cuts with a pull line, double pulley block & porta.... the strain was no more or less than when rigging down using the same method with any face notch type!

personally I think it really depends on the tree specie, I have always had ability to rig very large chunks of elm or gum as opposed to red oak or sycamore per say! just starting out its a good idea to take small chunks untill you`re comfy with all tree species and the reaction wood & forces of them.

LXT...........


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## tree md (Jun 5, 2012)

The humor on this site is unbeatable... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## beastmaster (Jun 6, 2012)

I some times when catching a small top high up in a skinny tree, will slash cut it so it goes over really slow, I'm talking 6 in. or less. lots of times the top is pointing downward and its still hasn't come loose, and I finish it off with my hand saw.


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## murphy4trees (Jun 6, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I some times when catching a small top high up in a skinny tree, will slash cut it so it goes over really slow, I'm talking 6 in. or less. lots of times the top is pointing downward and its still hasn't come loose, and I finish it off with my hand saw.


Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..


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## Zale (Jun 6, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..



What if you have a really big handsaw?


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## KenJax Tree (Jun 6, 2012)

I try to learn little things from all you guys but i will never use any of Murph's advice just watching his videos im surprised he hasnt hurt himself or someone else yet.:msp_scared:


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## beastmaster (Jun 7, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..



I hope someone doesn't try this with a big piece, it could really be dangerous. Your in effect peeling it most the time even on small tops. A big piece could really pin you to the tree if it peeled down over your safety, it could also go in any direction. That technic is used only on small tops and when your a little nervous 90 ft up in a skinny wobbly Pine. Not that I ever get nervous 90ft up a skinny wobbly pine. Ha


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## pinemartin (Jun 7, 2012)

murphy4trees said:


> By "taller" notch do you mean open face, that is wider... If so that is exactly wrong.. early separation is the way to reduce sway, meaning a narrow humboldt... once the piece starts moving, the more it goes, the more force it's going to put on the stem..[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> you are toataly right murph what a dumbass I am, after careful research I can see that the proper way is early separation where you jump the top 8 feet off the side of the stem with a lot of slack in your rigging line so it can shake the hell out of ya when it comes taut. Your method may work good for you over there in skee town but the guy was asking for suggestions on different ways of topping a tree with out getting beat up and that is what I gave him. By the way a ''taller'' notch is a conventional notch that is opened up greater than 45deg. so it has time to close before breaking the holding wood...


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## NCTREE (Jun 7, 2012)

the only time i use skinny notches is when im bombing the top so it lands flat utherwise its a 45er or greater. Use a skinny notch when your catching a top and guarantee your gonna get rocked.


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## treevet (Jun 9, 2012)

If I had morons with alcohol on the jobsite for groundmen like you do, I would leave some stubs under the cut as a lowering device and lower/feed myself and have virtually no swing at all. Done it a million times. If there was an open spot at the base I take up a 15 to 20 foot ;piece and just leter her go when appropriate. No Murphy's laws in effect on my jobs.:msp_smile:

What is up with filming through a slit?


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 9, 2012)

It seems that many here don't fully understand how a stem loads up to start a bull ride. 

As a top starts to move from the hinge up, the equal and opposite reaction is in the stem below the notch, being pushed backward from the felling direction as the top moves. When the face closes and hinge breaks, a bent stem (loaded) is going to equalize violently with you on it. A stem which hasn't been fully loaded, or a stem that's been loaded and unloaded as the face closes is going to equalize gently, sometimes barely even noticeable.

Shallow angle notch, good, early release and little stem loading. 

45ish degree notch, bad, near maximum stem loading. 

60ish degree open face, good, stem has already moved back and forward to near vertical again (unloaded) when the top comes free. 

90ish degree open face, bad, stem has moved back then came past vertical to fully loaded again when the top breaks free. 

The height and diameter of the stem below the notch are important variables, and equally, the height and mass of the top above the notch. Also the thickness of the hinge and type of wood are critical to whether the top breaks the hinge easily (no extra loading) or with difficulty (pulling the stem towards the top and loading)

The vid Reg posted yesterday in "Whadya do today" is a great example of skilled topping cuts (and lots of them) with minimal stem loading each and every time.


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## treevet (Jun 9, 2012)

while professor ddh and doctor murph may postulate on the significance of the notch me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 9, 2012)

treevet said:


> me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.



Can't argue with that.....

But I wasn't professing that the notch angle was more important to not getting rag dolled than the mass of the chunk and the rope/rigging system was, only what's going on loading up the stem before the rope is engaged.


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## treevet (Jun 9, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Can't argue with that.....
> 
> But I wasn't professing that the notch angle was more important to not getting rag dolled than the mass of the chunk and the rope/rigging system was, only what's going on loading up the stem before the rope is engaged.



seems like there would have to be awful unlucky timing for the two events to happen in conjunction in a neg way. almost seems like the detachment movement could even luck into dampening the shock load of the piece?


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 10, 2012)

treevet said:


> seems like there would have to be awful unlucky timing for the two events to happen in conjunction in a neg way. almost seems like the detachment movement could even luck into dampening the shock load of the piece?



Yes, I agree that the breakaway can magnify or dampen the coming shock, depending on the location and direction of movement of the spar when the hinge snaps. 

This fella takes a big top on a leaner and loads the stem big time.....If he'd have tried to catch it this one would have been an epic rag doll.

Tree Removal -- Hang on! - YouTube

Everybody has seen this one, but I don't know whether to say he's awful unlucky, or just got screwed by his groundie dropping it ten feet then stopping it quick. But his pre loading the stem, and the timing of the big shock magnified forces pretty well on this one.

tree cutting gone wrong - YouTube 

I was looking for the one where the guy gets launched from the limb when the rigging line breaks like he was shot from a giant slingshot....anybody got a link?


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## no tree to big (Jun 10, 2012)

ddhlakebound said:


> Yes, I agree that the breakaway can magnify or dampen the coming shock, depending on the location and direction of movement of the spar when the hinge snaps.
> 
> This fella takes a big top on a leaner and loads the stem big time.....If he'd have tried to catch it this one would have been an epic rag doll.
> 
> ...


first one I think woulda gone a bit better if he was using the appropriate size saw for the cut maybe something 50cc opposed to the probably 192t he was using... also cutting a big top on a leaner is totally different then taking a big top on a vertical tree it reacts much different 

ya forgot to post the one of AA getting rag dolled Pine Tree in Powerlines - YouTube


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## Scrat (Jun 10, 2012)

All I can Say to AA'S video is WOW and WOW and WOW steel core lanyard, metal extension thingy, one hand Cowboy to the max...not sure but I think I heard him yell 'Yipee Kyyy Yayyy' when he blew that top out, and face shield and ear muff....WOW


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## murphy4trees (Jun 10, 2012)

treevet said:


> while professor ddh and doctor murph may postulate on the significance of the notch me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.



That is pretty obvious that the weight of the piece is going to make a lot of difference... Distance it falls also important, but probably not as important as the amount of stretch in the line, and the amount of line in the system. Fall factor is more important than mass!


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## murphy4trees (Jun 10, 2012)

tree cutting gone wrong - YouTube
It would be nice if we all had great groundies running the lines at all times.. since we don't, a little ride should be expected.. in both the above vid and the AA vid, the ride wasn't as much of a problem as the body positioning.. If they had been braced and ready for the ride, it wouldn't have been a big deal.. Get rid of those stubs.. you don't want to take one the face or balls..


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## beastmaster (Jun 10, 2012)

I seem to always get to work with inexperienced groundies. Often times I have to use plan B on a take down, cause plan A takes a sharp ropeman. I like having another climber down on my ropes, they can anticipate more or less what I am doing. That being said, has anyone any experience with Dynasorb rigging line? I am going to get a 5/8 line of it just for those situations when I'm working with a green crew.
When I was first learning this trade I skidded a big top out of a pine growing throu a deck, the foremen kept telling me lower, lower. when that top started sliding down the tree bent like a fishing pole.,the tree would straighten up then bend again as the top bounced it's way down. That was the scariest thing that ever happened to me in a tree. Getting rag dolled catching a piece is just painful and embarrassing not so much scary, plus it over kind of fast.


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## QuadL-matty (Jun 20, 2012)

like sombody said earlier go work for a reputable company under an experienced climber and the knowledge will come. tree work takes time to become good at it. everybody started from the ground and went up. also nobody seems to mentioning the v-notch.....could be something there........


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## JanThorCro (Jul 1, 2012)

*Another thought*

In the video of AA getting rag dolled in the Pine Tree, I happened to watch it about 10 times. It seemed to me that the guy on the Pull Line (NOT the lowering line), continued to pull on the Pull Line LONG after the tree top had begun to lever over into a falling motion. 

Looks like the lowering rope finally got tight when the piece was 8' away from the tree. Is it normal for the piece being lowered to get that far away from the spar?

In doing this didn't he pull that mass of weight further from the tree and increase the force of the tree top swinging back at the tree like a battering ram./?

Am I reading this right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKjL3XTrv44&list=UUaaT_qAfDa8u2flhJ7rV6Ig&index=5&feature=plcp


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## JanThorCro (Jul 4, 2012)

I see it now. 

Lee LOCKED up the lowering line and reduced any chance of the rope absorbing the force of that fall. That piece had no choice but to swing into the spar.


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## murphy4trees (Jul 4, 2012)

JanThorCro said:


> In the video of AA getting rag dolled in the Pine Tree, I happened to watch it about 10 times. It seemed to me that the guy on the Pull Line (NOT the lowering line), continued to pull on the Pull Line LONG after the tree top had begun to lever over into a falling motion.
> 
> Looks like the lowering rope finally got tight when the piece was 8' away from the tree. Is it normal for the piece being lowered to get that far away from the spar?
> 
> ...



You are close on that.. it wasn't the pull line but the cut that had the piece flying so far... the narrow notch will help you throw a top when needed.. Looks like AA cut one there.. And yes the groundman F'd up... BUT as a climber you have to be READY for that... That really wasn't too bad of a ride (even though they did everything wrong) becasue it wasn't that big of a top.. If the climber had been properly braced for the ride he's have had some fun riding that bull..


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## JanThorCro (Jul 4, 2012)

Thanks Daniel,

So the degree of openness on the notch can be adjusted to find that sweet spot for each situation?
Sweet. I hadn't thought of it like that, but it makes perfect sense.


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## murphy4trees (Jul 4, 2012)

JanThorCro said:


> Thanks Daniel,
> 
> So the degree of openness on the notch can be adjusted to find that sweet spot for each situation?
> Sweet. I hadn't thought of it like that, but it makes perfect sense.




Check out this notch at 8:00-8:35 of:

throwing a big pine top.mov - YouTube

Tiny notch... and needed to throw the top of this nasty lightning struck pine 23', over the hedge..


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## murphy4trees (Jul 4, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I seem to always get to work with inexperienced groundies. Often times I have to use plan B on a take down, cause plan A takes a sharp ropeman. I like having another climber down on my ropes, they can anticipate more or less what I am doing. That being said, has anyone any experience with Dynasorb rigging line? I am going to get a 5/8 line of it just for those situations when I'm working with a green crew.
> When I was first learning this trade I skidded a big top out of a pine growing throu a deck, the foremen kept telling me lower, lower. when that top started sliding down the tree bent like a fishing pole.,the tree would straighten up then bend again as the top bounced it's way down. That was the scariest thing that ever happened to me in a tree. Getting rag dolled catching a piece is just painful and embarrassing not so much scary, plus it over kind of fast.



I've been thinking the same thing on the dynasorb.. except I like the 9/16 rather than the 5/8.... I did some homework and ran the numbers... 

The 9/16 has pretty much the same stretch per given weight as the 1/2" true blue, except with twice the tensile... NICE!!!! For most of the weights we deal with in tree work, it seems like the 9/16 is a better fit than the 5/8, plus its obviously lighter and easier to handle in the tree... I'd rather have more stretch and less tensile for those situations where the tree is the weak link.. you NEED THAT STRETCH...

to really get a feel for just how important STRETCH IS...
check out this video produced by yale cordage:

Yale Cordage Ultrex vs. XTC Rope Static and Dynamic Test Demonstration - YouTube


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