# Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?



## Marshy (Feb 2, 2015)

So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.

To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.

On the secondary combustion type stoves I've heard the secondary tubes can wear out as well. Has anyone experienced this or the need to replace secondary combustion tubes?

What has been your experience with either or both thechnologies and would you choose one over the other?

Of course I might trash the idea of a free standing stove and get a thermo control so I can operate my baseboard heat.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 2, 2015)

I've long been interested in a catalytic stove, but the concerns you've listed are what kept me from buying one. I would also be concerned about smaller manufacturers and availability of specialized parts in general, like cats and complex firebox parts, given my expectation of what is coming economically. 

Our main stove is a US Stoves Magnolia secondary combustion model - it was an inexpensive welded steel unit, and this is the 7th or 8th season we've burned it. There is no sign of any deterioration of the secondary manifold, or anything else. It just works.

When I picked out the smaller stove a few years ago I selected one with simple firebox parts. The Hampton H200 is also secondary combustion and shows no air manifold issues either.


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## NSMaple1 (Feb 2, 2015)

I don't think I could convince myself to run a stove, over using my baseboards.


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## Wisneaky (Feb 2, 2015)

I have a wood furnace that has secondary burn tubes. It is my second season with it. I pulled them out a few weeks ago and they are starting to rust and warp. I'd probably say they will last another season or two. So max I'd say 5 year life span on the tubes.


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## Idahonative (Feb 2, 2015)

Marshy said:


> So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.
> 
> To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.
> 
> ...



I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:

- Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA. Replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.

- Cats don't just wear out all of the sudden. They are coated with precious metals that burn off over a long period of time (12,000+hrs). You won't get up at 3am to a cold house and realize your cat needs changed. The cat will give you plenty of notice when it is starting to get weak and can almost always be changed on the off season.

- Cat stoves burn differently. The firebox doesn't glow red with hot coals during normal operation. They are designed to run "cool" and smolder. This creates a lot of smoke which the cat thrives on.

- Since getting our cat stove, our neighbors don't even know we heat with wood anymore. Very rarely does any visible smoke make it out of our stack. Smoke is fuel and if your stack smokes, you are wasting wood. Our cat stove eats smoke like there's no tomorrow. The flue temps are so low you can touch the pipe directly above the stove during normal operation.

- No need to clean your flue...it won't need it if you burn seasoned wood.

- You can expect long burn times and plenty of heat. We load our stove once every 24 hrs. with pine. We have also done a couple of distance runs with hardwood. One run heated our home for 43 hrs. and the other 45 hrs. Both times, the temps were cold (mostly single digits) and not a lot of sun shining. We do have a small house though.

- We are burning 33%+ less wood then we were with our non cat stove...covering the cost of the cat by many times. I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.

So I guess my advice to you is: THE CAT IS YOUR FRIEND.


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## captjack (Feb 2, 2015)

I have 2 stoves - the first is a big Earthstove insert with a cat - I get a few years out of the cat and it need to be replaces - 150-200 bucks online - the stove is very efficient and can easily burn all night and then some - puts out a tremendous amount of heat. 

My little stove is a NC 13 with burn tubes , The nc 13 is a lot smaller and does ok heating my bead room but i can't get long burns on it - There seems to be a lot more tending to this stove - with air adjustments etc to keep a consistent temp. 

These two stoves are not really comparable because of their sizes but I would go with the cat stove all the way - longer more consistent burns and a lot of heat.


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## Marshy (Feb 2, 2015)

NSMaple1 said:


> I don't think I could convince myself to run a stove, over using my baseboards.


What are you usin an OWB?

An OWB is out of the question for me. They burn too much wood and are too much of an investment in more ways than one IMO.

I've strongly considered an indoor boiler or a wood stove with heat coils like the thermo control. I would have to plumb in a thermal storage tank but a self built tank can be made easily on a budget.

My only reservation about a full blown IWB is every one I've ever seen let out a lot of smoke when it was refueled and that does not jive well with me. The reason I like my current stove is because I can successfully refuel it without it ever leaking smoke into the house. Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove wher I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.

Anyways, the discussion about cat vs secondary burn is still applicable when talking about IWB's, I just am less familiar with what's available vs free standing stoves...

Regardless, my current setup is in the basement of my home. I have a 1850 sqft ranch over the basement constructed in 1999. The basement is unfinished with concrete floor and has a walkout with a garage door. One third if the basement is divided off with an uninsulated wall. The smaller side if the basement is where the stove and walkout is. The house is heated through natural convection/radiation and I currently burn about 6-7 cord keeding it 72-75F.

Thanks for the input so far.


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## Marshy (Feb 2, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:
> 
> - Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA by Condar. Condar makes cats for many different stove manufacturers and replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.
> 
> ...



I read your other thread and thought the stove looked nice. I went to your site and didn't find it very useful. Please post your link again and I will take a second look. I am interested in its certifications and how it performs.


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## Jetterbug (Feb 2, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I talk highly about our stove so much I know someone is going to get on here and tell me to just shut up already. I can't give you advise on secondary stoves but I can tell you this about our cat stove:
> 
> - Don't worry about the cat. Our cat is backed by a TEN year warranty and they are made in the USA by Condar. Condar makes cats for many different stove manufacturers and replacements (many years down the road) won't be hard to come by.
> 
> ...


Man, you sold me! My secondaries don't hold a flame to this cat!


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## Chris-PA (Feb 3, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I can't understand why people worry about the cost of the cat. The cat actually pays you back many times over.


I don't worry about the cost of the cat, I agree it's not a major long term expense. I would worry about the availability of it - my stoves don't need much of any parts beyond door gaskets or fire brick. Then again we all have different expectations for the future.


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## al-k (Feb 3, 2015)

Have had mine now for 19 years and replaced the cat the fourth time last fall and replaced the gaskets for the first time. I was starting to get a little smoke smell, now you would never know we burn wood people are surprised that the house has no smell of smoke.


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## zogger (Feb 3, 2015)

Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?


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## zogger (Feb 3, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't worry about the cost of the cat, I agree it's not a major long term expense. I would worry about the availability of it - my stoves don't need much of any parts beyond door gaskets or fire brick. Then again we all have different expectations for the future.



Well, if ya got storage in a barn someplace, you could be using a cat equipped stove now for the benefits, and if push came to shove down the road, reinstall the old school heater.


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## Del_ (Feb 3, 2015)

zogger said:


> Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?



Yes, the rare earth metals eventually wear away. Abuse of the cat like overfiring and flame impingement reduce their usable lives as of course does feeding the stove cat damaging materials.

I don't use a cat but I did in the early 1980's and I think the technology is sound. I suggest having a second cat around and if in doubt that the old cat is working as designed, replace it with a new one, if the new one works the same, put the old one back in and save the new one as a future standard for testing and eventual replacement.

It's quite reassuring to be able to eliminate the guessing as to if the cat if function properly.


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## Idahonative (Feb 3, 2015)

zogger said:


> Don't know the answer to this, but I bet one of you guys with cats must have thought of it. Is it possible to clean the cats with something, then reinstall them? Or does the platinum/whatever coating just wear off? With the ones on cars there are supposedly additives to burn which will help get them clean, but no idea if that same stuff would be useful for ones on stoves. But for like ten bucks, maybe worth a shot, over replacing them as often? Maybe in an ultrasonic cleaner with the cat cleaning chemical?



Keeping the cat clean is very simple. The best thing for them (and the firebox) is to get them hot once per day. We call it "burn off" and we let the stove do this at least 15 min. per day after loading. DO NOT use chemicals to clean your cat or use anything harsh or abrasive. The harshest thing you should use (once per season?) is a soft brush on the front of the cat. DO NOT remove your cat unless it is necessary to replace it. If you are running your stove correctly, the cat will keep itself clean.

Some may say cat maintenance is just another reason not to own a cat stove, but we don't run our cat stove any different than we did our non cat stove. The only difference having to do with the burn off. We do/did burn offs with both stoves but for different reasons. On the cat stove, burn off keeps the firebox and cat clean. The flue isn't much of a concern because the cat is consuming so much smoke. On the non cat stove, burn off keeps the flue clean. The firebox isn't a concern since it burns hot and keeps itself clean.

Whether you are burning a cat, non cat, secondary, or hybrid: Burn dry wood and get your stove hot at least 15 minutes a day. 50+ years between my parents house and ours and not once have either of us cleaned the flues. I always crack a smile when I hear talk of, or read on AS, people hiring a chimney sweep. Chimney sweeps are for people who don't know better. I don't say that to sound arrogant. I say that because if a person is going to heat their home with wood, knowing how to run your stove is a simple but very important thing.


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## Locoweed (Feb 3, 2015)

No one answered op question about burn tubes. My Regency has 16 years on the original stainless steel burn tubes and the look like new.


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## Idahonative (Feb 3, 2015)

Locoweed said:


> No one answered op question about burn tubes. My Regency has 16 years on the original stainless steel burn tubes and the look like new.



Captjack pretty much answered that in post #6. He has both stoves and his conclusion of the cat stove is: _*"Longer more consistent burns"*_ and I agree with him. Cat and secondary stoves run completely different. One running the firebox hot and one running the firebox cool. A cool firebox makes for some amazing burn times while still producing loads of heat from the cat. Sounds like you have a well made secondary stove though.


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## BeatCJ (Feb 3, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove wher I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.


Which Lopi does your BIL have? I have a 380, the forerunner to the Endevour, and have almost no burping of smoke? I have a straight 6" flue, probably right at ideal length. The ONLY time I have an issue is when my screen on my rain cap get clogged with creosote. My stove is a little big for my house, so it does get choked down pretty tight overnight.

Since mine is an early attempt at a secondary stove, it's not real clean burning, I would consider it a "smoke lizard". If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years old. I believe at least one of the secondary tubes is cracked, and I suspect the screws holding them in place are probably rusted in place. I have a very well insulated house, and when I can afford to replace the stove, will go smaller. I am thinking about the catalyst/secondary issue myself. I'm pretty sure I don't need long burns, so I'm leaning toward a secondary type (probably a smaller Lopi) at this point.


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## president (Feb 3, 2015)

we have heated our large house with and without cat technology.
Cat stoves are the way to go for long efficient burns.no coloured paper
or tin foils etc but the combustors are less than $300 to replace
you save that in fuel costs 10 times over Our stoves are the Blaze King
full sized cats with dual fans and burn 24hours ,well worth the 3,600 hundred
loonies !


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## Idahonative (Feb 3, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Yes, the rare earth metals eventually wear away. Abuse of the cat like overfiring and flame impingement reduce their usable lives as of course does feeding the stove cat damaging materials.
> 
> I don't use a cat but I did in the early 1980's and I think the technology is sound. I suggest having a second cat around and if in doubt that the old cat is working as designed, replace it with a new one, if the new one works the same, put the old one back in and save the new one as a future standard for testing and eventual replacement.
> 
> It's quite reassuring to be able to eliminate the guessing as to if the cat if function properly.



Good point Del about the over firing, flame impingement, and damaging materials reducing a cats life.

And you could use a second cat to diagnose a weakening primary. But there is a real danger of breakage by taking them in and out since they become brittle with use (ceramic ones). The stoves cat thermometer will diagnose a weakening cat without taking a chance of breaking an expensive item.


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## slowp (Feb 4, 2015)

Is an IWB an indoor stove? If so, something is wrong if it smokes out the house. As for hiring a chimney sweep? I did--there's something about being up on a roof that is scary for me unless I have a rope to hang onto. Which is weird because I've negotiated many a scary bluff. It was $130. He cleaned it, took things apart, gave it a good look at, put a bit of sealant around because I'd had a drip inside the house a couple of times, filled out a form, and pronounced it in excellent shape. It gave me a feeling of relief not having to wonder about how much buildup--there was not much after a few years. Best of all, he came out here, which is out of the way for most businesses--an hour at least both ways, and didn't charge an extra amount. 

I'll have him back in a couple or so years...

And sorry for the thread drift. My stove is a secondary burn and I haven't tried to keep it going all night. I don't think it would because it is small and there isn't a lot of room inside to fill it up.


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## Marshy (Feb 4, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> Which Lopi does your BIL have? I have a 380, the forerunner to the Endevour, and have almost no burping of smoke? I have a straight 6" flue, probably right at ideal length. The ONLY time I have an issue is when my screen on my rain cap get clogged with creosote. My stove is a little big for my house, so it does get choked down pretty tight overnight.
> 
> Since mine is an early attempt at a secondary stove, it's not real clean burning, I would consider it a "smoke lizard". If I remember correctly, it's about 20 years old. I believe at least one of the secondary tubes is cracked, and I suspect the screws holding them in place are probably rusted in place. I have a very well insulated house, and when I can afford to replace the stove, will go smaller. I am thinking about the catalyst/secondary issue myself. I'm pretty sure I don't need long burns, so I'm leaning toward a secondary type (probably a smaller Lopi) at this point.


 
I think you are getting a little confused. My BIL's Lopi doesnt burp, my old stove does if I toss in some wood and close the door without letting it catch flame. The wood will smolder enough to fill the firebox and when it ignites it will woosh and burp some unburnt gas out the inlet draft. I have to make sure when I reload to leave the door cracked until to wood catches flame before shutting the door. In comparison, it is hard to even tell I heat with wood compared to my BIL's house. For some reason his house smells of smoke and you can see the shadows on the walls for the nails that hold the sheet rock on the studs. IDK if he is not letting it burn down enough when he reloads or if his draft is just so bad that it billows out when he reloads. Regardless, I wont tolerate a stove that lets in a lot of smoke when reloading. That is one of the most important things.


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## BeatCJ (Feb 4, 2015)

Yup, I was confused. Even still, his issue probably isn't his stove. I have a bypass damper I open, open the draft control under the door and make sure I see flames in the firebox (if I'm reloading it hot) and I get no burping, rollout or smell into the house. I do open the door slowly, to make sure it's pulling air in. I wouldn't let your BIL's problem influence your purchase.



Marshy said:


> My only reservation about a full blown IWB is every one I've ever seen let out a lot of smoke when it was refueled and that does not jive well with me. The reason I like my current stove is because I can successfully refuel it without it ever leaking smoke into the house. Sure there are a few occasions in the whole year that mine might burp (self induced) but compared to my BIL with his LOPI stove where I can see the soot on his walls I'm way ahead.
> 
> Anyways, the discussion about cat vs secondary burn is still applicable when talking about IWB's, I just am less familiar with what's available vs free standing stoves...



I didn't know that LOPI made Indoor Wood furnaces, but I just can't believe they would allow a bunch of smoke into the home.


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## Dirtboy (Feb 4, 2015)

I have an Avalon Rainier insert with the secondary burn tubes. Clean them every year with the rest of it, and sweep the chimney liner after burn season. 13 years with no problems.


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## Marshy (Feb 4, 2015)

slowp said:


> Is an IWB an indoor stove? If so, something is wrong if it smokes out the house. As for hiring a chimney sweep? I did--there's something about being up on a roof that is scary for me unless I have a rope to hang onto. Which is weird because I've negotiated many a scary bluff. It was $130. He cleaned it, took things apart, gave it a good look at, put a bit of sealant around because I'd had a drip inside the house a couple of times, filled out a form, and pronounced it in excellent shape. It gave me a feeling of relief not having to wonder about how much buildup--there was not much after a few years. Best of all, he came out here, which is out of the way for most businesses--an hour at least both ways, and didn't charge an extra amount.
> 
> I'll have him back in a couple or so years...
> 
> And sorry for the thread drift. My stove is a secondary burn and I haven't tried to keep it going all night. I don't think it would because it is small and there isn't a lot of room inside to fill it up.


 
IWB = Indoor Wood Boiler. Boilers in general are considered smog pumps IMO regardless if indoor or outdoor. That's why I'm hesitent to bring a wood boiler in the house because of that. I have a oil fired boiler that I use for backup so idealy I would like to get something that uses the existing hydronic system and oil boiler as a backup. That is why Im considering something like the thermo control because 50% of the heat goes into the water coild and the other 50% is radiated like a normal wood stove. 

Some stoves up for consideration are;
Jotul Rangely, Oslo, or Firelight
Quardafire Steptop
Blaze King Princess or King

Any other worth considering? I head US Stove Company has been having issues with their stoves, anyone have any experience with them?


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## Marshy (Feb 4, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> Yup, I was confused. Even still, his issue probably isn't his stove. I have a bypass damper I open, open the draft control under the door and make sure I see flames in the firebox (if I'm reloading it hot) and I get no burping, rollout or smell into the house. I do open the door slowly, to make sure it's pulling air in. I wouldn't let your BIL's problem influence your purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know that LOPI made Indoor Wood furnaces, but I just can't believe they would allow a bunch of smoke into the home.


 
Oy vey, I believe you are still confusing some of the details. No one mentioned a furnace and I did not question my BILs method of operating his stove. He might very well be doing it incorrectly when opening it for refueling or wood less than seasoned IDK. I personally wouldnt want anyone coming into my home questioning me how I run my stove so I gave him the same courtesy. Im not letting that fact scare me away from a more modern stove, I just hope that my house does not succumb to the same smell as that is really important to me that it does not smell and I am about at my limit with my current stove. I personally think a cat stove might be the best for me. The Cat stoves have less emmisions too which is important for my young kids that will be outside playing in the down wind area. Nice even heat is key also and BK seems to be the best Cat stove out there and only marginly more expensive over the secondary stoves.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 4, 2015)

Marshy said:


> So, at some point in the near future I will be considering a change to my current heating system. I currently have an old free standing Shenandoah. It does the job but it has plenty of draw backs. The main reason for upgrading is 1) more efficiency in terms of longer burns and less wood, 2) less emissions.
> 
> To my understanding there are two basic options for free standing stoves, catalytic vs secondary combustion. My concerns with the catalytic stoves are the life of the catalytic and inconveience of possibility having to replace it mid season when I need 24/7 heat.
> 
> ...



Check out the Ideal Steel stove from Woodstock. Cat and secondary tubes. Good burn times, really low emissions, great price. Base model is around $1,600 I think. The works which includes soapstone is about $2k. Search for BrianK on this site and read his great thread about the IS.


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## Marshy (Feb 4, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Check out the Ideal Steel stove from Woodstock. Cat and secondary tubes. Good burn times, really low emissions, great price. Base model is around $1,600 I think. The works which includes soapstone is about $2k. Search for BrianK on this site and read his great thread about the IS.


 
I've read about them. I could consider that as well its in the same price range and about the same size as the others. One concern is shipping cost. I can drive less than an hour and pick up a blaze king. IDK what it would cost to ship one of the Woodstock stoves...


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## Ambull01 (Feb 4, 2015)

Marshy said:


> I've read about them. I could consider that as well its in the same price range and about the same size as the others. One concern is shipping cost. I can drive less than an hour and pick up a blaze king. IDK what it would cost to ship one of the Woodstock stoves...



Very true, shipping may cost a fortune lol. I have my heart set on picking one up if I can get past my sensible side screaming at me to save money and buy a Englanger 30-NCH from HD for $700-$900. 

I've heard Woodstock has some great customer service. Went on their site and read a bit about their company. They only sell their stoves direct and each order has to be placed before they make it. The company is really small too. So, you have an issue with the stove, call them up and you're talking to someone with a vested interest in pleasing you. I know other companies say customers come first but I really doubt the drive thru lady working at McDonald's really gives a crap about providing great service and hoping you buy from them again. It's probably relatively easy to get the daggone owner of the company on the phone. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with your question but just thought that was great.


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## Idahonative (Feb 4, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Very true, shipping may cost a fortune lol. I have my heart set on picking one up if I can get past my sensible side screaming at me to save money and buy a Englanger 30-NCH from HD for $700-$900.
> 
> I've heard Woodstock has some great customer service. Went on their site and read a bit about their company. They only sell their stoves direct and each order has to be placed before they make it. The company is really small too. So, you have an issue with the stove, call them up and you're talking to someone with a vested interest in pleasing you. I know other companies say customers come first but I really doubt the drive thru lady working at McDonald's really gives a crap about providing great service and hoping you buy from them again. It's probably relatively easy to get the daggone owner of the company on the phone. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with your question but just thought that was great.



Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 4, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.



Maybe. You could also say Hyundai offers a really long warranty because they know chances are they'll never have to make a major repair in warranty. I know Honda's sell more vehicles than Hyundai but there are far less recall for Hyundai. Also, not sure I could call Hyundai and speak to the owner/president when if my car's wheels somehow fell off while driving. Also, Hyundai is at the top when it comes to reliability so stop hating on Korean wheels! lol


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## Idahonative (Feb 4, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Maybe. You could also say Hyundai offers a really long warranty because they know chances are they'll never have to make a major repair in warranty. I know Honda's sell more vehicles than Hyundai but there are far less recall for Hyundai. Also, not sure I could call Hyundai and speak to the owner/president when if my car's wheels somehow fell off while driving. Also, Hyundai is at the top when it comes to reliability so stop hating on Korean wheels! lol



No hating here...wife would be mad if I hated on her Hyundai Elantra. Between my parents, me, my sister, and my two nieces, we have owned seven Honda's since 1986 and not one of them ever had a single problem. I like the new Elantra's alot but my point was that Honda had developed a reputation over the past few decades for being a trouble free, well made, reliable car. So much so they don't need to offer a ten year warranty to sell cars.

But back on the subject: Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and stoves are no exception. I've learned that the hard way.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 5, 2015)

president said:


> we have heated our large house with and without cat technology.
> Cat stoves are the way to go for long efficient burns.no coloured paper
> or tin foils etc but the combustors are less than $300 to replace
> you save that in fuel costs 10 times over Our stoves are the Blaze King
> ...



Was looking at the BK King/Ultra wood stove for a replacement to my old Century. 
$3600 is a bit much, but if I don't buy a BK then I'll be spending $2200 on a good, large, secondary-burn stove and using more wood I guess.


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## Marshy (Feb 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Good point but consider this: When shopping for a car, both Honda and Hyundai make real good ones. Honda has a three year warranty while Hyundai has a ten year. Why would anyone ever buy the Honda? Because you will probably never need it.


 
Kind of a poor analogy IMO. Some companies offer a longer warranty because they are confident their product will be trouble free for that period. It wouldnt make good business sense to offer a warranty in which you would lose money. The fact that they are willing to stand behind their product that long is a benefit to the consumer and it gives confidence IMO.

Why wont Woodstock off a 10 year warranty? They are relatively new to the market with that hybrid stove and not exactly well known IMO. Maybe it would help bolster sales, or maybe it would cost the compant money?


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> No hating here...wife would be mad if I hated on her Hyundai Elantra. Between my parents, me, my sister, and my two nieces, we have owned seven Honda's since 1986 and not one of them ever had a single problem. I like the new Elantra's alot but my point was that Honda had developed a reputation over the past few decades for being a trouble free, well made, reliable car. So much so they don't need to offer a ten year warranty to sell cars.
> 
> But back on the subject: Like most things in life, you get what you pay for and stoves are no exception. I've learned that the hard way.



Well I only have first hand experience with two Hondas, both Civics. Both had transmission issues but that may have been due to maintenance or lack thereof. 

If I'm able to buy a reliable piece of equipment for less than the competition and it comes with a longer warranty I'm all in. Hyundai was in fact the number 1 rated in reliability so I guess it's just perception. People think Honda and Toyota are super reliable and they are. But, they've also had a LOT of recalls. Some major some minor. 

No way! There are great stoves out with small price tags. 



Marine5068 said:


> Was looking at the BK King/Ultra wood stove for a replacement to my old Century.
> $3600 is a bit much, but if I don't buy a BK then I'll be spending $2200 on a good, large, secondary-burn stove and using more wood I guess.



Damn that's high. I think I'll buy two IS stoves instead. Check out the Woodstock Ideal Steel stove. Secondary and cat for about $1,700 or so for the base model. A bit over $2k will get you the fancy pants model with soapstone and some fu fu crap.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Kind of a poor analogy IMO. Some companies offer a longer warranty because they are confident their product will be trouble free for that period. It wouldnt make good business sense to offer a warranty in which you would lose money. The fact that they are willing to stand behind their product that long is a benefit to the consumer and it gives confidence IMO.
> 
> Why wont Woodstock off a 10 year warranty? They are relatively new to the market with that hybrid stove and not exactly well known IMO. Maybe it would help bolster sales, or maybe it would cost the compant money?



Amen!!Using the warranty is a No Go at this stage. 

That's a good question. I can't seem to find warranty info on their site. I've heard the cat prices for Woodstock stoves are around half the amount of BK stoves. So, taking the initial stove price into consideration, you would have to buy a lot of cats for the Woodstock to make up for the upfront cost of the BK. Hope that makes sense, I think I jacked up my thoughts.


----------



## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Also, this is from BK's website: 

*Q. Do catalysts need replacing?*

A. Yes. After a number of years, catalysts can loose their efficiencies. It is not uncommon to get up to 10 years or more service from a catalyst. Burning well-seasoned dry cordwood only can best prolong the catalyst life. If you are planning on burning boards with nail, paint or chemical treatments, or using your stove to burn household trash, you should not use a catalytic wood stove. Of course, all catalysts installed in Blaze King wood models are covered by a 6 year prorated warranty.

Not sure where the 10 years came from?


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## Idahonative (Feb 5, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Also, this is from BK's website:
> 
> *Q. Do catalysts need replacing?*
> 
> ...



Six year is their standard warranty. Since 2012 (I think), they come with the 10 year extended warranty.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Six year is their standard warranty. Since 2012 (I think), they come with the 10 year extended warranty.



Just saw that lol. That sounds like a great deal then if there's no additional cost involved. I don't understand why they wouldn't just offer the 10 year warrant outright for all newer stoves sold? 

So now I need to figure out the life of a cat. Assuming a person follows burning guidelines put out by the manufacture and not act like a dumb ass do people really get around 10 years useful service life? If so, then the warranty becomes a non-issue.


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## CTYank (Feb 5, 2015)

There are some potentially useful discussions of cat long-term behavior on another site I can't mention. Something to do with "____Wood- ________ Club" if you follow my drift. 

Tom Morrissey at Woodstock has written some interesting articles re cat/non-cat stoves and emissions. Woodstock's Hybrid stove reportedly works very well as a non-cat stove (at higher outputs) and as a cat at lower outputs. Not all black & white.


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## Idahonative (Feb 5, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Amen!!Using the warranty is a No Go at this stage.
> 
> That's a good question. I can't seem to find warranty info on their site. I've heard the cat prices for Woodstock stoves are around half the amount of BK stoves. So, taking the initial stove price into consideration, you would have to buy a lot of cats for the Woodstock to make up for the upfront cost of the BK. Hope that makes sense, I think I jacked up my thoughts.



Ambull, I think the IS is the perfect stove for you. Buy it, use it, test it, and then share your results with the rest of us so we will know.

Is the warranty important to you? I hope not because, like you, I could not find any information anywhere on their website. So I called Woodstock this morning to see if they could tell me where it was. I asked the guy, "is your warranty information on your website...I can't seem to find it." His response was, "I think it is." But he was not able to tell me where to find it. So I asked him to explain the warranty to me. He said, "ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY on the firebox and THREE YEAR PRO RATED on the cat." I almost laughed out loud. Are you kidding me? One year parts only is like having no warranty. What is a stove owner supposed to do, spend hundreds of dollars on shipping (not covered) to replace a $100 part (covered) that cost $300 in labor to fix (not covered)? Blaze King has a FIVE YEAR warranty on the firebox and they pay for the parts.

It's not my intention to pick on Woodstock. But I would be very leery of any company who doesn't stand behind their products with at least an industry average warranty. Especially since I've read about Woodstocks cats wearing out in one year. Could it have something to do with Woodstock NOT using precious metals in their cats like other manufacturers? According to their website: _*"The catalytic combustor is made of stainless steel foil."*_ I have some real concerns about longevity and the efficiency differences between precious metals and stainless steel foil.

There's something else that just doesn't add up. The IS was the grand prize winner of the 2013 Woodstove Design Challenge. They talk a lot about how efficient it is on their website:

_*"In addition to record woodstove efficiency, the IDEAL STEEL Hybrid has a large 3.2 cubic foot firebox, will burn easily for over 12 hours on a load of wood, and will heat large living spaces."*_

A 3.2 cf firebox is a large firebox and this stove is supposed to have "record woodstove efficiency" but yet they advertise 12 hour burns? There are many BK Princess owners out there with their 2.85 cf firebox that consistently heat their homes for 20-30 hours per loading. How is that possible with a stove that has a smaller firebox and supposedly not as efficient as the IS? I do not believe the IS is in the same league as the Princess when it comes to real world efficiency. Let's not forget that the IS is not exactly cheap at around $2000. We could have bought a brand new Princess last year for $2700.

Another consideration is the fact that wood stoves are constantly expanding and contracting during use. This puts stress on "weak points" that can warp or break over time. It takes years to discover where all the weak points are. Designs that have been on the market for years (or decades) have been through this process. A new design like the IS has not and with their sub par warranty, it would no doubt be a deal breaker for me. And I don't believe the guy from Woodstock concerning the warranty. He doesn't know for sure if the warranty info is on their website? Isn't it his job to know something so basic? I believe it is a company decision not to publish the warranty because they know it definitely is not a selling point for their stoves. They just play dumb when someone calls up asking about it but with a little prodding, will give it out.

The more I learn about the IS the more concerns I have and after today, I don't have much respect for Woodstock as a company. I question their efficiency numbers and their lack of being forthright when a customer asks them something.

Burn what makes you happy but I think these are important considerations for would be buyers. And there is truth in the saying: Cheaper in the short run usually isn't cheaper in the long run.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

CTYank said:


> There are some potentially useful discussions of cat long-term behavior on another site I can't mention. Something to do with "____Wood- ________ Club" if you follow my drift.
> 
> Tom Morrissey at Woodstock has written some interesting articles re cat/non-cat stoves and emissions. Woodstock's Hybrid stove reportedly works very well as a non-cat stove (at higher outputs) and as a cat at lower outputs. Not all black & white.



Thank you sir, I'll make my way to that site now and read my butt off. 

I don't know how you found those articles. The website looks like a complete scam, they really need to improve it. 

Secondary combustion must have some advantages at higher heat outputs or making a hybrid wouldn't make sense right? I need to look into this more lol. 

On another note, what you been up to? Haven't seen you in a while. You've been working your new Tanaka saw or whatever it's called? 



Idahonative said:


> Ambull, I think the IS is the perfect stove for you. Buy it, use it, test it, and then share your results with the rest of us so we will know.
> 
> Is the warranty important to you? I hope not because, like you, I could not find any information anywhere on their website. So I called Woodstock this morning to see if they could tell me where it was. I asked the guy, "is your warranty information on your website...I can't seem to find it." His response was, "I think it is." But he was not able to tell me where to find it. So I asked him to explain the warranty to me. He said, "ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY on the firebox and THREE YEAR PRO RATED on the cat." I almost laughed out loud. Are you kidding me? One year parts only is like having no warranty. What is a stove owner supposed to do, spend hundreds of dollars on shipping (not covered) to replace a $100 part (covered) that cost $300 in labor to fix (not covered)? Blaze King has a FIVE YEAR warranty on the firebox and they pay for the parts.
> 
> ...



Hell BrianK already made a great thread about the IS. He's much more experienced than I. If I made a thread about a stove on this site and a newb listened to what I said it would be the blind leading the blind. 

The warranty thing is truly odd. I asked a dude on another site and he posted some numbers from his paperwork. Don't understand why that info isn't front and center on their website. 

Hell I have a freaking 50 ft roll of stainless steel foil in my kitchen drawer right now! lol. I can make my own cat. 

Read this about the stated burn time: http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/under-hood-12-ideal-steel-hybrid-burn.html

I wouldn't know what the hell was on the site either if I worked for them. That website was made by a blind man I tell ya. 

Anyways, I don't want to keep going back and forth with this nonsense. I have no dog in this fight since I don't own a IS. Right now I'm running a POS tiny toy looking insert. There's lots of info about the IS on the site CTYank referred to and hearth. There's members there backing up the company saying they provide exceptional CS, free no cost replacement parts, etc. 

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Where have you read about Woodstock cats going out in one year? I want to read about it before I make a deposit lol. Thanks


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## NSMaple1 (Feb 5, 2015)

Marshy said:


> What are you usin an OWB?
> 
> An OWB is out of the question for me. They burn too much wood and are too much of an investment in more ways than one IMO.
> 
> ...


 
Missed your question.

I have a gassifying boiler, with 660 gallons of storage (LP tanks with water). All in my basement. Along with the whole winters wood. If you're looking for comfort, efficiency, and operational flexibility - that's the ticket. No creosote, no chimney cleaning. Mine is natural draft, if you go with that or induced draft (as opposed to forced), you will get no smoke spillage.

If I couldn't or didn't want to do a boiler in the basement, I would put the same setup (indoor gassifying boiler with storage & all winters wood) in an insulated outbuilding (call it a big shed or a small shop/barn). You could also do that but put the storage in the basement if that was a possibility or want.


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## CTYank (Feb 5, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Thank you sir, I'll make my way to that site now and read my butt off.
> 
> I don't know how you found those articles. The website looks like a complete scam, they really need to improve it.
> 
> ...



Sir, hell! I'm a civilian now. If you're thinking of the same website I am, you might note one huge difference there- no ankle-biting snipers, or at least notably few. Much less animus.

Secondary combustion is what it's all about. Period. Getting unburnt volatiles and CO to burn, and recover huge amounts of heat by so doing. Difference is that in a non-cat the mix of secondary air and fuel gas must be above something like 1100 F to light off. With a cat, that can happen at much lower temp. I've heard 650 F will do it. That's why cat stoves exist- longer, lower, slower burns.

My take on the Woodstock Hybrid, talking to Tom Morrissey at an open house in Lebanon NH a few years ago was that the stove could give the cat some time-off at higher outputs. Saving it from thermal stress there. Their soapstone stoves are a thing of beauty, and efficiency. If you're up by the jct of I-91 and I-89, they're not hard to find, east by the airport. They like visitors.

Been busy. Not that interested in jawin', prefer sawin', and a couple of the folks I volunteer with recently got federal assistance funding approved for reforestation AFTER we clean up huge amounts of "Superstorm Sandy" damage. Could be enough work 'til mid-summer at very large Audubon Center, alone. That little 33 cc Tanaka saw is like the "Energizer Bunny" of chainsaws, works great for limbing and busting up brush from tops, to size for hauling crew. Did you get one? A freebie at that price. Just yesterday, it had a new big brother arrive, to help with the backlog (lousy pun)- a 576XP.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

CTYank said:


> Sir, hell! I'm a civilian now. If you're thinking of the same website I am, you might note one huge difference there- no ankle-biting snipers, or at least notably few. Much less animus.
> 
> Secondary combustion is what it's all about. Period. Getting unburnt volatiles and CO to burn, and recover huge amounts of heat by so doing. Difference is that in a non-cat the mix of secondary air and fuel gas must be above something like 1100 F to light off. With a cat, that can happen at much lower temp. I've heard 650 F will do it. That's why cat stoves exist- longer, lower, slower burns.
> 
> ...



Hope I have the right site. It's firewood hoarders club right? Only been a member there for a real short time. Haven't even posted yet, just doing a lot of reading. Seems very civilized. I really like three firewood/chainsaw/wood stove sites so far. They're all different so it keeps me interested. Hearth is filled with wood Nazis so I go there to roll my eyes about seasoning white oak for at least 3 years, FHC to read about stoves/wood burning without having to weave through BS, and this site to learn you need at least a 60cc. 

I've been reading more about how and why woodstock designed the IS. I'm liking it more and more. 

So you met the owner, cool. I need to take a drive up there soon. Wife wants to visit Maine so may swing by on the way up.

Can't believe people are still clearing up Sandy damage. No I don't have a Tanaka, I'm taking a break from CAD right now. Caught myself getting too into accumulating chainsaws. Read Thoreau a couple years ago and found it to be the best book I've read. I wanted to kinda model my life around his mentality and I can't do that with 50 chainsaws lol. I want something light in the future though, my Makita 6421 is a bit heavy.


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## BrianK (Feb 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Could it have something to do with Woodstock NOT using precious metals in their cats like other manufacturers? According to their website: _*"The catalytic combustor is made of stainless steel foil."*_ I have some real concerns about longevity and the efficiency differences between precious metals and stainless steel foil.



With catalytic combustors the precious metals are impregnated _*on*_ a substrate like ceramic _*or*_ stainless steel foil. In this case, the stainless steel foil is used _*instead of*_ a ceramic honeycomb substrate because it makes for far more surface area (and therefore higher efficiencies) as well as far better resistance to thermal shock. Stainless steel most certainly is not used _*instead of*_ precious metals.


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## BrianK (Feb 5, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Where have you read about Woodstock cats going out in one year? I want to read about it before I make a deposit lol. Thanks


There were a few reports of the early catalytic combustors on the early models of the Woodstock Progress Hybrid failing prematurely. That is *not* a widespread problem among stainless steel cats in general or among Woodstock's products, and was taken care of promptly by Woodstock in those few cases.

Stainless steel cats are quickly becoming industry standard. 

Condar's Blaze King cat "upgrades" are all stainless: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/blazeking.html


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## Idahonative (Feb 5, 2015)

BrianK said:


> There were a few reports of the early catalytic combustors on the early models of the Woodstock Progress Hybrid failing prematurely. That is *not* a widespread problem among stainless steel cats in general or among Woodstock's products, and was taken care of promptly by Woodstock in those few cases.
> 
> Stainless steel cats are quickly becoming industry standard.
> 
> Condar's Blaze King cat "upgrades" are all stainless: http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/blazeking.html



Brian, who makes the cat for the Woodstock Ideal Steel stove and what country do they make them in?

And since you probably know more about the company than most, do you have any input concerning their warranty that was discussed in the above posts?


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## BrianK (Feb 5, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Brian, who makes the cat for the Woodstock Ideal Steel stove



Both BK and Woodstock cats use stainless steel DuraFoil according to the VP of BK.



Idahonative said:


> do you have any input concerning their warranty that was discussed in the above posts?



From my owner's manual:
We are sure you will enjoy your new stove. During the first six
months that you own it, test its performance and experience the
comfortable warmth of soapstone. *If you are not thoroughly delighted
with the beauty, quality, and energy efficiency of your stove, you
may return it for a full refund, including the cost of return freight.
This is the best consumer protection plan in the industry.*
LIMITED WARRANTY
Your Woodstock Soapstone Stove will be carefully inspected before
shipment. We will replace any part which is defective in material or
workmanship, free of cost, for a period of one year from the date of
purchase. If a defect is discovered, please contact Woodstock
Soapstone Company, Inc. for instructions regarding return or
replacement of the defective part.
CATALYTIC COMBUSTOR
WARRANTY
The catalytic combustor in your Ideal Steel Hybrid Catalytic Wood
Stove is fully warranted for three years from the date of purchase
against any defect in workmanship or materials that prevent the
combustor from functioning when installed and operated properly.
The catalytic combustor is additionally warranted for three years
from the date of purchase for any deterioration in the stainless steel
substrate material.​And from their website:
The EPA warranty on catalytic combustors covers free replacement for the first three years from date of stove shipment. Years 4-6 are pro-rated. Call us at 1-800-866-4344 to order if your stove is less than 6 years old.​Despite the written warranty above, I personally know many Woodstock owners who have received free replacement parts and service many years after purchase. Their customer service is universally acknowledged as one of the best in the business and very generous and accommodating.

And other than owning their products, I have no relations with the company. I'm just a happy customer.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

BrianK said:


> Same company that makes them for Blaze King. (So be careful about criticizing Woodstock's cats. You're also criticizing BK's. Fortunately my replacement cat is a third the cost of a Blaze King cat.) Both of their cats use stainless steel DuraFoil according to the VP of BK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the same company makes the cats yet BK charges more to replace them? What the hell!? 

I keep hearing glowing praises about their customer service. Can't wait to visit their shop! 

I've been reading Woodstock has been known to ship upgraded stove items to people that bought older models. Only question now is how do I get on the beta tester list! You need some free help cutting/splitting/stacking firewood?


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## BrianK (Feb 5, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> So the same company makes the cats yet BK charges more to replace them? What the hell!?
> 
> I keep hearing glowing praises about their customer service. Can't wait to visit their shop!
> 
> I've been reading Woodstock has been known to ship upgraded stove items to people that bought older models. Only question now is how do I get on the beta tester list! You need some free help cutting/splitting/stacking firewood?


I edited my post above because I can't verify who currently makes Blaze King's cats. I just know that on another forum, the VP of BK said that both BK and Woodstock use the stainless steel DuraFoil in their cats. 

BKs cats might be twice as big as my cat, I don't know, but that might be why the price differential exists.

I don't have any pull with Woodstock, I just volunteered to Beta test in the summer of 2013, and was in the right place at the right time.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 5, 2015)

BrianK said:


> I edited my post above because I can't verify who currently makes Blaze King's cats. I just know that on another forum, the VP of BK said that both BK and Woodstock use the stainless steel DuraFoil in their cats.
> 
> BKs cats might be twice as big as my cat, I don't know, but that might be why the price differential exists.
> 
> I don't have any pull with Woodstock, I just volunteered to Beta test in the summer of 2013, and was in the right place at the right time.



I think it really is Condar, only thing I see from searching. They run about $300 it looks like.

You do now right? The owner mentioned you by name in his blog.


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## BrianK (Feb 6, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> You do know right? The owner mentioned you by name in his blog.


Yes, I've met the owner Tom a number of times. He is a good man.


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## 1project2many (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> He said, "ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY on the firebox and THREE YEAR PRO RATED on the cat."


Many companies are moving away from pro rata warrantees. This company may follow suit in the future.




Idahonative said:


> What is a stove owner supposed to do, spend hundreds of dollars on shipping (not covered) to replace a $100 part (covered) that cost $300 in labor to fix (not covered)? Blaze King has a FIVE YEAR warranty on the firebox and they pay for the parts.


You might want to rethink how warranty works. There are really only two ways for the manufacturer to pay for warranty repair and stay in business. Either they pay the cost directly and charge the customers when a stove is purchased to make up the expense or they purchase insurance and charge the customers for the policy. The cost of the Blaze King suggests you may be pre-paying the actual cost of any warranty replacement parts.


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## al-k (Feb 6, 2015)

In a off topic reply BrianK i like your splitter that must really save your back.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 6, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Thank you sir, I'll make my way to that site now and read my butt off.
> 
> I don't know how you found those articles. The website looks like a complete scam, they really need to improve it.
> 
> ...



I too am wary of Woodstock having no info of their warranty on the site. Plus I'm not a fan of the old Victorian looking stoves they make anyways. I like a bit more of a contemporary look. Not ultra-modern, but classic contemporary. They have nothing in the way of style that catches my eye. I guess my new stove will be a BK....Expensive, but worth it.


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## Marshy (Feb 6, 2015)

1project2many said:


> Many companies are moving away from pro rata warrantees. This company may follow suit in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to rethink how warranty works. There are really only two ways for the manufacturer to pay for warranty repair and stay in business. Either they pay the cost directly and charge the customers when a stove is purchased to make up the expense or they purchase insurance and charge the customers for the policy. *The cost of the Blaze King suggests you may be pre-paying the actual cost of any warranty replacement parts*.


 
I'll play devils advocate and say the additional cost of BK might just be because it is a superior stove. Its larger which costs a little more money to make and has been tested using the HHV and LHV methods. ASAIK the efficiency ratings of the Woodstock are not tested per the HHV or LHV method (its not disclosed on their site if they were or not). If I had to guess, it likely expensive to put a product through that testing. I'm sure there is more to it that that but just something that comes to mind.

I never intendet this thread to become a BK vs XX stove thread. It seems like BK stoves are in the lime light right now but I really havent found a comparable cat stove (size and performance wise) so for now it seems to be the center of discussion.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Marine5068 said:


> I too am wary of Woodstock having no info of their warranty on the site. Plus I'm not a fan of the old Victorian looking stoves they make anyways. I like a bit more of a contemporary look. Not ultra-modern, but classic contemporary. They have nothing in the way of style that catches my eye. I guess my new stove will be a BK....Expensive, but worth it.



I think the no warranty listed thing has a lot to do with their vision/way of doing business if you will. From what I've read they are a really small company that's been around for a real long time. Doesn't seem like they have any desire to become a huge company or they would have by now. They're more of a mom and pop type of operation which is almost unheard of nowadays. If you read other sites there are many people that vouch for the company. Even people who have since switched stoves for one reason or another all have no complaints about customer service. All that has alleviated any concern I had. Still, they really need to pay someone to fix their site. 

I live in a Victorian style house so it will fit perfectly. The all white model looks the best IMO and I hear it gives great fire views. Cost and no fire view may be the only downside to the BKs. There's also some discussion about creosote/soot build up with BKs since the flue gas temps are really low. Seems like a real minor issue though. 



Marshy said:


> I'll play devils advocate and say the additional cost of BK might just be because it is a superior stove. Its larger which costs a little more money to make and has been tested using the HHV and LHV methods. ASAIK the efficiency ratings of the Woodstock are not tested per the HHV or LHV method (its not disclosed on their site if they were or not). If I had to guess, it likely expensive to put a product through that testing. I'm sure there is more to it that that but just something that comes to mind.
> 
> I never intendet this thread to become a BK vs XX stove thread. It seems like BK stoves are in the lime light right now but I really havent found a comparable cat stove (size and performance wise) so for now it seems to be the center of discussion.




All very true. If the BKs were rear vent I would really look at them. I need rear vent to use my existing chimney so BKs are a No Go. Would be nice to have the massive firebox size of the King.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Marshy said:


> ASAIK the efficiency ratings of the Woodstock are not tested per the HHV or LHV method (its not disclosed on their site if they were or not). .



http://www.woodstove.com/ideal-steel-hybrid/29-info/information

Found this, kind of old though.

The method for testing efficiency has been specified once again as the Low Heat Value of wood (LHV)*. Efficiency was calculated using the Lower Heat Value (LHV)* for the 2009-2011 tax credit. Using this method all of the Woodstock Soapstone Woodstoves exceed the minimum 75% efficiency requirement.

Woodstock Soapstone Model HHV* LHV*

209 Progress Hybrid ..........81.00% 88.00%

205 Fireview .. ...........80.9% ..90.9%

204 Keystone ...............75.8% .....85.1%

202 Palladian ...............75.8% ...85.1%

200 Classic ..........78.3% ....88.7%
These results have been independently confirmed by Omni Test Laboratories Inc. 13327 NE Airport Way, Portland, OR. 97230 and by Intertek

No IS data that I can find. The IS is supposed to be an improved version of the PH so I would think the percentages should be lower. 

From BK: http://www.blazeking.com/EN/efficiency.html

*Efficiency & Emissions.*
*Wood Stoves*
*Model* *Model #* *LHV Tested Efficiency* *HHV Tested Efficiency* *Emissions (grams/hour)
King* KE 1107 88% 82% 1.76
*Princess* PE 1006 88% 81% 2.42
*Ashford 30* AF 30 81% 75% 0.97
*Chinook 30* CK 30 81% 75% 0.97
*Sirocco 30* SC 30 81% 75% 0.97
*Ashford 20.1* AF 20 83% 77% 1.3
*Chinook 20* CK 20 83% 77% 1.3
*Sirocco 20* SC 20 83% 77% 1.3
*Royal Guardian* RGT 3001 83% 71.1% 5.8
*Briarwood II* BR II/90 79.7% 71.4% 3.5


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Damn it! Tried to make the BKs numbers lined up nice and pretty but they all went back to original format lol. Just wasted 5 minutes of my life doing that.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

1project2many said:


> Many companies are moving away from pro rata warrantees. This company may follow suit in the future.
> 
> You might want to rethink how warranty works. There are really only two ways for the manufacturer to pay for warranty repair and stay in business. Either they pay the cost directly and charge the customers when a stove is purchased to make up the expense or they purchase insurance and charge the customers for the policy. The cost of the Blaze King suggests you may be pre-paying the actual cost of any warranty replacement parts.



Whichever stove a person decides to buy really doesn't matter to me. I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove. There are stove manufacturers that use things like "efficiency" to manipulate and confuse people into thinking their stoves are best. I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it. 

The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me. Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper? It is a significant selling point and it gives customers piece of mind that their hard earned dollars were well spent.

As for the BK warranty: I think you are completely off base. The price of a BK product has very little to do with "pricing in" the warranty. When you buy a BK product, you are paying for engineering and testing, quality materials and manufacturing, and a proven design that works like no other.

I own a business and I know what it is like to compete in the marketplace. We have people call and inquire about our prices, then almost hang up on us when they discover we are 20% higher than the competition. Without even giving us a chance to explain why we are higher and why our product is in a different league when it comes to quality. But yet, we turn away as many customers as we take in because we are at full capacity. Why is that? Because quality is king and although it isn't worth it for some, the majority of people appreciate and are willing to pay a higher price for a better quality product.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Whichever stove a person decides to buy really doesn't matter to me. I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove. There are stove manufacturers that use things like "efficiency" to manipulate and confuse people into thinking their stoves are best. I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it.
> 
> The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me. Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper? It is a significant selling point and it gives customers piece of mind that their hard earned dollars were well spent.
> 
> ...



Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything. 

Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> I live in a Victorian style house so it will fit perfectly. The all white model looks the best IMO and I hear it gives great fire views. Cost and no fire view may be the only downside to the BKs. There's also some discussion about creosote/soot build up with BKs since the flue gas temps are really low. Seems like a real minor issue though.



Lack of "fire view" is a deal breaker with you even though I think you previously stated you wanted a stove that was capable of extended burns? You can't have it both ways. If you like watching a beautiful fire then BK is definitely NOT for you. You will never come close to 30-40 hour burns if you are watching the fire. To achieve those kind of burn times, the firebox must be choked down to a smolder and the user sees mostly black inside the stove during normal operation. 

And creosote/soot build up is not a problem as long as the stove is operated per the manual. Because the firebox has to be choked down to create smoke for the cat, there is some buildup in the firebox...NOT the flue. A 15-20 minute burn off during reloading keeps everything clean which I believe you want to do regardless of which stove you have.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Lack of "fire view" is a deal breaker with you even though I think you previously stated you wanted a stove that was capable of extended burns? You can't have it both ways. If you like watching a beautiful fire then BK is definitely NOT for you. You will never come close to 30-40 hour burns if you are watching the fire. To achieve those kind of burn times, the firebox must be choked down to a smolder and the user sees mostly black inside the stove during normal operation.
> 
> And creosote/soot build up is not a problem as long as the stove is operated per the manual. Because the firebox has to be choked down to create smoke for the cat, there is some buildup in the firebox...NOT the flue. A 15-20 minute burn off during reloading keeps everything clean which I believe you want to do regardless of which stove you have.



Very true dude! Yeah, I always want things both ways. I have a moderate ADD lol. 

I'm totally new to wood burning so I'm still enamored with having a fire in the house. Also lived in Hawaii for most of my life so didn't grow up the need to burn things. Now I'm trying to make up for lost time. Find myself watching the fire instead of the tv. 

As for the soot/creosote I just read that on the hearth site from BK owners. They're saying it's just on the cap screen so if you remove that there will be no issues.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything.
> 
> Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.



Need some coffee Bro? I've got a suggestion for you...read my posts on this site (not just this thread) and you will completely and fully answer your own question. How do I know BK is a better product? How do you know it isn't? Do you own either stove? And did you read the part in my last post that said:
_*
"I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it."*_

If my opinions bother you, don't read them. Simple as that.


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## BrianK (Feb 6, 2015)

Speaking of personal opinions...BKs are excellent stoves, my problem is they just ain't shaped right...

Separated at birth?


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## 1project2many (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I have no vested interest in Blaze King nor do I even know anyone who works there. My input is for the people out there who are trying to sift through all the confusing information when it comes to buying a new stove.



But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.




Idahonative said:


> The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me.



Warranty is risk management. That's all it is. It's an insurance policy provided to the buyer. Some people feel a company should be able to guarantee a good product nearly forever. The logic is something like, "If it's truly good, they'll never have to replace a part, and the warranty will cost nothing." Others seem to think the warranty term indicates quality: "If they have to offer such a big warranty, the product must be junk." But there is no single way to look at warranty that will objectively indicate quality. Entire marketing campaigns are built around warranty terms and the public is swayed back and forth, just like they can be swayed with "New and Improved" , collector editions, and any number of marketing tricks. The manufacturer's view is that providing warranty is accepting risk and they need to assign a cost to that risk. Assigning cost is tricky business because it involves prediction and that's a fairly tough game to get right.




Idahonative said:


> Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper?



Some potential scenarios? Company needed financing to go into manufacturing and the financer was not comfortable accepting risk. Or investors weren't happy to invest with a lower return on investment calculated when the potential cost of a longer warranty was included. Or, the manufacturer had high confidence in the product but low confidence in the consumer and didn't want to feel forced into replacing every part a consumer thought was faulty because he had a stated warranty. Maybe the manufacturer has seen the explosion of potentially unnecessary "meetoo" warranty claims that can pop up because of internet discussions and does not feel comfortable putting a business at risk for the whimsy of social networks.




Idahonative said:


> As for the BK warranty: I think you are completely off base. The price of a BK product has very little to do with "pricing in" the warranty. When you buy a BK product, you are paying for engineering and testing, quality materials and manufacturing, and a proven design that works like no other.



So at some point they should have recovered the cost of engineering and lowered the price. At some point they should be achieving greater efficiency in manufacturing and should be lowering the cost of the stove. At some point they should have recovered the cost of testing and certification and lowered the cost to the consumer. What keeps the cost up? Do they have an R&D lab that's releasing new technology? Are they frequently bringing new stoves to market? Is it pure profit? I realize that better products cost more, but it's foolish to believe some of the cost doesn't go into covering warranty and customer service. I can give a fine example of a nationally branded muffler with a lifetime warranty that's almost 2x the price of the one year warranty version yet shows little difference in materials and construction. The extra cost buys the replacement muffler up front, and if you don't take them up on the replacement then they've made 2x the normal sale price.



Idahonative said:


> Because quality is king and although it isn't worth it for some, the majority of people appreciate and are willing to pay a higher price for a better quality product.


Are you talking about the majority of your customers? Because the majority of US consumers do not value quality over cost. Wal-mart is not the giant that it is because the majority will pay more for quality. Automakers and aftermarket parts suppliers have not moved manufacturing offshore because the majority of customers are willing to pay more for quality. Brand after established quality brand has not been purchased and changed until it is nothing more than a name because a majority of people want to pay more for quality. No, sadly, Cost is king.


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## BrianK (Feb 6, 2015)

al-k said:


> In a off topic reply BrianK i like your splitter that must really save your back.


Thanks al-k, it works good but its a little slow.

That splitter was built by an old timer with a Yanmar 9hp diesel motor and what looks like a hydraulic unit off an old dozer.

I added the ChinaFreight pickup bed crane for lifting the big stuff. It was the cheapest quickest way to add a log lifter that I could find.



1project2many said:


> But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.


Thank you. This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.

And that's my last comment on this thread.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

1project2many said:


> But you promote the BK as thoroughly as any salesman and even use "bashing the competition" as one of your sales methods. So maybe not a vested interest, but you clearly have an interest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why do I hear a little voice in my head telling me you are in some way connected to Woodstock? Is it coincidence BrianK "likes" your post seconds after you post it? What is your vested interest?

Like I told Ambull, my opinions are my opinions only and if you don't like them, don't read them. This forum is about information and people have a right to hear from all sides. Sounds like my posts hit a nerve with you which makes me believe you are more than just a customer. Anyway, enough said.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Need some coffee Bro? I've got a suggestion for you...read my posts on this site (not just this thread) and you will completely and fully answer your own question. How do I know BK is a better product? How do you know it isn't? Do you own either stove? And did you read the part in my last post that said:
> _*
> "I want to be careful not to offend or come across as being disrespectful to those on here who's heart is in the right place and have invested a lot of time to bring us good information. That said, just like in my personal life, I call it as I see it."*_
> 
> If my opinions bother you, don't read them. Simple as that.



Actually, I do need some coffee. Couldn't sleep last night thinking about Drill this weekend. 

Your opinions don't bother me a bit. 

@1project2many Economics major?


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

BrianK said:


> Thank you. This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.
> 
> And that's my last comment on this thread.



Brian, I'm not bashing Woodstock. Is it a crime to discuss things that don't add up to me? Is it a crime to question some of their claims or their poor warranty? You guys want to attack me for simply stating my opinions? That's not what this forum is about.

When you did your Beta, someone on this forum said your thread was starting to "smell like spam". I'm wondering now if your Beta was a sincere test by a customer or was it more than that? Maybe you are connected to Woodstock more than you are saying. The timing of your "like" on post #67 is just too coincidental. Almost like you are communicating with someone behind the scenes. Kind of like the private message you sent me saying the owners of BK and Woodstock were close friends and don't like people tearing down their businesses. Were you trying to stifle my input?

Enough said on my part as well.


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## Marshy (Feb 6, 2015)

BrianK said:


> Thanks al-k, it works good but its a little slow.
> 
> That splitter was built by an old timer with a Yanmar 9hp diesel motor and what looks like a hydraulic unit off an old dozer.
> 
> ...


 
Now now lets just slow down a little, I would say both sides are "advocating" their side just as much as the other and I dont think anyone is bashing. Regardless, I think its time to move on and get back on topic which was the defferences in the two technologies.

The thing that interests me is the hybrid stove uses both technologies so you would think it would class leading in the amount of emissions it releases but there are others that are marginally better. Why is that? In general, it seems like the secondary burn stoves produce on average more effluent... any insite?


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## 1project2many (Feb 6, 2015)

@Ambull01, No, not an economics major.

@Idahonative, not a customer. Interested in cat stoves over current secondary burn stoves and watching discussion. Presenting rational contrasting viewpoints for discussion. You're clearly passionate. Remember other stoves / brands may be just as acceptable to other people.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

BrianK said:


> Speaking of personal opinions...BKs are excellent stoves, my problem is they just ain't shaped right...
> 
> Separated at birth?



Wow, and you get on here and accuse me of bashing? Seems kind of childish. You do know BK makes more than just that Princess Parlor right?:


King:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-king.html

Ashford 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-ashford30.html

Chinook 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-chinook30.html

Sirocco 30:
http://www.blazeking.com/EN/wood-sirocco30.html


I'll go one step further than my last post and say I believe you are connected to Woodstock more than just as a customer. Is this how Woodstock plans to sell their stoves? How many other Woodstock customers have their names mentioned by the owner in HIS blog? Just Beta by a customer, right?


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## BrianK (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I'll go one step further than my last post and say I believe you are connected to Woodstock more than just as a customer.


1) You are wrong.
2)Paranoia and ad hominem is a poor substitute for reasoned debate.

Good day.


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## Ronaldo (Feb 6, 2015)

Back more to the topic: when I was looking into stoves 14 yrs. or so ago, I was told that if you like to see active flames then a secondary combustion technology was the way to go and if I didnt care one way or another the cats will give a longer burn time but with less visible fire view.
This does seem to be the case, if that matters to anyone.


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

BrianK said:


> This nonsense is getting old, quick. When someone doesn't even understand the basics of catalytic combustors, or that their favorite brand uses exactly the same technology and materials as the brand they're bashing, it kinda indicates the person doing the bashing is more of a keyboard commando than a knowledgeable consumer.



I see. So I don't understand even the basics of combustors, yet you think my stove _*"uses exactly the same technology and materials"*_ as the Woodstock Ideal Steel? My stove is NOT a hybrid. It is a cat stove and the cat is made of a ceramic substrate...not a stainless steel foil substrate. You may want to get your facts straight Brian before you go calling me a _*"keyboard commando"*_ and a consumer who doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## BrianK (Feb 6, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I see. So I don't understand even the basics of combustors, yet you think my stove _*"uses exactly the same technology and materials"*_ as the Woodstock Ideal Steel? My stove is NOT a hybrid. It is a cat stove and the cat is made of a ceramic substrate...not a stainless steel foil substrate. You may want to get your facts straight Brian before you go calling me a _*"keyboard commando"*_ and a consumer who doesn't know what he's talking about.


As you and anyone else reading the thread knows, I was specifically replying to your false statements about Woodstock's catalytic combustors, not whether your stove is a hybrid or cat only stove::


Idahonative said:


> I've read about Woodstocks cats wearing out in one year. Could it have something to do with Woodstock NOT using precious metals in their cats like other manufacturers? According to their website: _*"The catalytic combustor is made of stainless steel foil."*_ I have some real concerns about longevity and the efficiency differences between precious metals and stainless steel foil.


The Vice Pres of Blaze King is the one who said they use the same materials as Woodstock, not me. Here's his quote from a forum conversation in September 2014 (if you want to find it online, just Google search the entire quote):
Applied also does their own washcoats, yes.

Yes both Tom [President of Woodstock] and we use Durafoil.

Last I heard Buck purchased their cats from ACI.

All the ceramic cats work just fine IF the stove is properly designed.​Regardless of what your cat was made of at the time of its manufacture, in their cats, both Woodstock and BK are currently utilizing stainless steel DuraFoil, which you mischaracterized as substandard practice in your second quote above.




Idahonative said:


> Kind of like the private message you sent me saying the owners of BK and Woodstock were close friends and don't like people tearing down their businesses. Were you trying to stifle my input?


Again, for anyone reading along, I was simply trying to save you a little embarassment, but since you insist in mischaracterizing my PM, here it is:



BrianK said:


> No problem. The owners of Blaze King and Woodstock are personal friends and they highly respect each other and each other's products and designs. They don't like to see their customers tearing down each other's company or products. They are both leaders in the field and they are both doing great R&D.



Let's give it a rest now, OK?


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## Idahonative (Feb 6, 2015)

BrianK said:


> As you and anyone else reading the thread knows, I was specifically replying to your false statements about Woodstock's catalytic combustors, not whether your stove is a hybrid or cat only stove::
> 
> The Vice Pres of Blaze King is the one who said they use the same materials as Woodstock, not me. Here's his quote from a forum conversation in September 2014 (if you want to find it online, just Google search the entire quote):
> Applied also does their own washcoats, yes.
> ...




I might have been wrong about you. I don't think you work for Woodstock, I think you are studying to be a politician. You say something, then say you meant something else, then blame it on my false statements, then say it was meant for someone else, then point the finger at someone else, and finally...you're just doing me a favor. You got a bright future...I'm thinking all the way to the Federal level. Yep, time to move on.


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## CTYank (Feb 6, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Hope I have the right site. It's firewood hoarders club right? Only been a member there for a real short time. Haven't even posted yet, just doing a lot of reading. Seems very civilized. I really like three firewood/chainsaw/wood stove sites so far. They're all different so it keeps me interested. Hearth is filled with wood Nazis so I go there to roll my eyes about seasoning white oak for at least 3 years, FHC to read about stoves/wood burning without having to weave through BS, and this site to learn you need at least a 60cc.
> 
> I've been reading more about how and why woodstock designed the IS. I'm liking it more and more.
> 
> ...



Yup, that's the site. Sure looks a lot more civilized than here, without the sycophantic butt-kissers and knuckle-draggers too. Almost too nice. Never did like Fred Rogers much either.  Forestry forum has different areas of expertise covered, AND some folks that got banned from here.

Folks at hearth (before the nazis staged their putsch) promoted an open house at Woodstock, and Tom Morrissey was answering any and all question about the new-at-the-time "Progress Hybrid" stove that was going into production momentarily. A no-bs guy IMO.

The delay with the Sandy cleanup was in arranging the federal financing for the cleanup and reforestation. Takes a while to get a state forester involved and prepare the reforestation plan. On some of the sites we're working, town wetlands lords were a real PITA too. I just got my 10th saw, a 576XP 28" Husqy. Some friends think I'm crazy. Could be, but I use them all, and if they don't do the job, they're gone. Some sites I'll be working, I'd pack a 61cc Dolmar and 33cc Tanaka, and have work suitable for both. The 576 weighs about the same as the Dolly, so it's in that mix now. Once some snowpack shrinks, and lets us get trail access again, that is. We have some really large blowdowns to do some cutting on, and lots of them.

If you're in the market for Husqy/Jonsered give sponsor Spike60 a shout. He's an encyclopedia on those saws, and can give you a great deal on new/used. He's 12 mi W of Kingston NY on NY 28. (He ships saws to folks all over the region too.)


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## autoimage (Feb 7, 2015)

I can only speak of what I know and I have a Woodstock for 5 yrs original cat....zero problems and is a seriously well constructed piece of furniture almost. all I do for my cat is brush off fly ash occasionaly and that is all. the cat is 125.00 and looks like ill get a 6th season out of it burning 24/7. burn times are overrated for me cause I burn hot


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## BeatCJ (Feb 7, 2015)

Marshy said:


> The thing that interests me is the hybrid stove uses both technologies so you would think it would class leading in the amount of emissions it releases but there are others that are marginally better. Why is that? In general, it seems like the secondary burn stoves produce on average more effluent... any insite?


I believe that in making a hybrid, you have to make compromises. I do think there are advantages, too. The way I read it, it doesn't use both approaches at once, but one or the other, based on combustion temps. Not that interested to really delve into it.

I don't think you should choose solely on emissions, but it's a factor. I would guess that there is no way a secondary burn stove CAN achieve the lower emission levels a catalytic stove can reach. Both types of EPA certified stoves are such an improvement over a non technological wood burning box that even a secondary burning stove is acceptable to the rule makers. While I'm glad the EPA allows for differences, I'm somewhat surprised that they allowed for different approaches. If they were as onerous as people claim, they would have set a level and said achieve this, or don't manufacture a stove.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 7, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> While I'm glad the EPA allows for differences, I'm somewhat surprised that they allowed for different approaches. If they were as onerous as people claim, they would have set a level and said achieve this, or don't manufacture a stove.


As far as I know they have done exactly that - there is a test that is described in detail, and specific output limits one must meet. How that is achieved is not part of the regulation. It is a performance test.


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## BeatCJ (Feb 7, 2015)

Hmmm, maybe it's Washington State then, but I was pretty sure there is one standard for catalytic stoves and a higher allowable level for secondary burn stoves.

OK, from EPA Burnwise: http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/woodstoves.html
*
Emission Limits for Wood Stoves*
The internal design of wood stoves has changed entirely since the EPA issued standards of performance for new wood stoves in 1988. EPA's mandatory smoke emission limit for wood stoves is 7.5 grams of smoke per hour (g/h) for non-catalytic stoves and 4.1 g/h for catalytic stoves. (Wood stoves offered for sale in the state of Washington must meet a limit of 4.5 g/h for non-catalytic stoves and 2.5 g/h for catalytic stoves.)


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## Idahonative (Feb 7, 2015)

This is why a consumer shopping for a new "high efficient" wood stove needs to understand what high efficiency means. Efficiency in the real world is how well a stove burns, extracts, and delivers heat to your home (aka HEATING EFFICIENCY). I believe the EPA ratings are only a measure of how cleanly a stove burns (low emissions), not how well it heats. Consumers are easily confused when talking about efficiency and there are companies out there that exploit that to sell stoves.

This is one of the reasons why I questioned the Woodstock Ideal Steel. It makes no sense to me how a stove can have a large firebox and "record 82% EPA tested efficiency", but yet only have average burn times of 10-14 hrs. It's being marketed as a super efficient stove which it is from an emissions standpoint (1 gr/hr). But from a standpoint of giving the consumer the most possible heat out of a given amount of wood, it's performance is just average. Does this make it a bad stove? ABSOLUTELY NOT and no one should take offense to that statement. I just believe that potential buyers should understand exactly what they are purchasing...and I shouldn't be attacked for that.

Here's the bottom line no matter if you burn a cat, non cat, secondary, or hybrid stove: The hotter your flue temps, the lower your stoves heating efficiency will be in the real world. If the heat energy is going up the stack, it's not going into your home. A magnet thermometer, placed on a single wall pipe, 5 inches above the stove top will tell you a lot about your stoves heating efficiency (for double wall use probe).

http://www.condar.com/Stovepipe_Thermometers.html

During normal operation, ours usually runs 150-200 degrees. There is nothing at all wrong with a stove that runs higher than that. It just means a lot of your heat energy is being wasted. Manufacturers can market their stoves pretty much however they want, no matter how misleading it may be. They are in business to sell stoves and make a profit. A flue thermometer is a low cost reliable way for consumers to monitor, first hand, the heating efficiency of their stove.


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## Idahonative (Feb 12, 2015)

Not sure why I was thinking about it this morning but I think I've figured out why some on this site are so sensitive about my Woodstock stove comments. It's the companies SIX MONTH RISK FREE IN HOME TRIAL, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.

Think about it. The company has all these stoves out there and the customers have a six month period in which they can return them for a refund. If people like me post things that could be considered negative, it's a huge threat to the company. They simply can't have many customers decide to return their stoves. It would bankrupt the company.

Woodstock advertises their return policy to be, "by far the best guarantee in the stove industry!". Once again, misleading. Yes, it is unique to the industry but it is nothing more than creative marketing. Because their ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox is one of, if not the poorest in the industry. The THREE YEAR warranty on the cat might be closer to average.

I believe the company is using people to get on these forums to help sell stoves. It's a great strategy but it can be a double edged sword. They can use people like BrianK but forums are great informational tools and eventually, facts about any stove will come out (good and bad). BrianK, didn't Woodstock select you to test their latest hybrid as well?

I don't wish anything bad on Woodstock but I believe a person should be able to get on this forum and discuss things like stove efficiencies and warranty without getting beat up. I'm not an expert but if there are areas of concern, there should be no crime in discussing them.


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## 1project2many (Feb 12, 2015)

> Not sure why I was thinking about it this morning but I think I've figured out why some on this site are so sensitive about my Woodstock stove comments.



I don't care about Woodstock. I'm just wondering why you continue to talk badly about the stove. You seem to worship at the shrine of Blaze King and talk about other brands as if they are created by Satan himself. Why? You may not realize it but to an observer you aren't _discussing_ warranties and efficiencies. You're attempting to influence the readers' opinions in a negative way about other brands of stove. It's not just "Here's why I like mine" and "Here's what I didn't like about the other brand." You are in another place. Your message is "That brand is _bad_ because I don't like the warranty. That brand is _bad_ because they can't get the efficiency. That brand is _bad, bad, bad._ When I attempted to discuss the warranty including potential valid reasons why it might not match your expectations, there was no acknowledgment of validity, no realization that your interpretation might not be correct. Instead you tried to imply that I was somehow in league with another member and together we'd undertaken an attempt to subvert your message to the masses, probably under the auspices of the Devil's Own stove maker. Was that a discussion or a persecution? Was it even necessary?

There is no crime in discussion. There is no problem with disliking a product. What you're doing is different.


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## Idahonative (Feb 12, 2015)

1project2many said:


> I don't care about Woodstock. I'm just wondering why you continue to talk badly about the stove. You seem to worship at the shrine of Blaze King and talk about other brands as if they are created by Satan himself. Why? You may not realize it but to an observer you aren't _discussing_ warranties and efficiencies. You're attempting to influence the readers' opinions in a negative way about other brands of stove. It's not just "Here's why I like mine" and "Here's what I didn't like about the other brand." You are in another place. Your message is "That brand is _bad_ because I don't like the warranty. That brand is _bad_ because they can't get the efficiency. That brand is _bad, bad, bad._ When I attempted to discuss the warranty including potential valid reasons why it might not match your expectations, there was no acknowledgment of validity, no realization that your interpretation might not be correct. Instead you tried to imply that I was somehow in league with another member and together we'd undertaken an attempt to subvert your message to the masses, probably under the auspices of the Devil's Own stove maker. Was that a discussion or a persecution? Was it even necessary?
> 
> There is no crime in discussion. There is no problem with disliking a product. What you're doing is different.



Well I respectfully disagree. Go back and read my posts. I talk about things that other people, shopping for a new stove, might find relevant. I will agree that there is the added dimension in my discussions concerning Woodstock's marketing. To me, they are misleading and that bothers me. Am I on a mission to inform others...possibly. The nice thing about this forum is I am free to talk about what I feel is important. You and everyone else on here have the same luxury.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 12, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> This is why a consumer shopping for a new "high efficient" wood stove needs to understand what high efficiency means. Efficiency in the real world is how well a stove burns, extracts, and delivers heat to your home (aka HEATING EFFICIENCY). I believe the EPA ratings are only a measure of how cleanly a stove burns (low emissions), not how well it heats. Consumers are easily confused when talking about efficiency and there are companies out there that exploit that to sell stoves.


Efficiency is calculated as a ratio of two numbers - "how well a stove burns" is a vague term and not a definition of efficiency. The EPA tests the mass of particulates emitted by the stove wile burning a set load of wood.

Because the energy is stored in the wood mostly in the form of carbon bonds with other elements, and the particulates are mostly carbon molecules, then particulates also represent energy not extracted from the wood. Therefore the particulate test can be used to calculate the efficiency of energy extraction from the wood. "How well it heats" is also a vague term, but one could say that if you extract more energy from the load of wood then you got more heat. 

However, none of that has anything to do with the rate of heat output, either peak or average, as you would also need to know the time it took to calculate that. 

I believe the biggest confusion about modern stoves has to do with manufacturer published, unverified numbers on BTU/hr output rates. Even if the peak output numbers are correct, the secondary burn stoves make big peak output rates but cannot maintain that continuously, so people are fooled into thinking the stove is big enough when it isn't.


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## Idahonative (Feb 12, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Efficiency is calculated as a ratio of two numbers - "how well a stove burns" is a vague term and not a definition of efficiency. The EPA tests the mass of particulates emitted by the stove wile burning a set load of wood.
> 
> Because the energy is stored in the wood mostly in the form of carbon bonds with other elements, and the particulates are mostly carbon molecules, then particulates also represent energy not extracted from the wood. Therefore the particulate test can be used to calculate the efficiency of energy extraction from the wood. "How well it heats" is also a vague term, but one could say that if you extract more energy from the load of wood then you got more heat.
> 
> ...



Kinda took what I said out of context didn't you Chris? You are right, "how well a stove burns" is a vague term but that's not really what I said is it. I said, "how well a stove burns, extracts, and delivers heat to your home." BIG difference because what you quoted is referring only to the burn and what I stated is referring to the heating efficiency of the stove. And I never said "how well a stove burns" was the definition of efficiency so please don't insinuate that I did. But hey, your buddy BrianK likes it so I guess it's not all bad

The "real world" efficiency of a wood stove is not hard to understand contrary to what many will have us believe. You have X amount of wood (fuel), capable of creating X amount of heat and there will be X amount of loss up the flue. You are right when you say, "the particulate test can be used to calculate the efficiency of energy extraction from the wood." But that has NOTHING to do with getting that heat transferred from the inside of the stove to the inside of the house. You are referring to efficiency like the EPA where only the particulate emitted is measured (and energy released calculated). I am only talking about heating efficiency which is how much heat energy is actually transferred to the inside of the home.

I stand by what I've stated in this thread. Woodstock is pushing the Ideal Steel as a super efficient stove and in the real world, it is not. Potential buyers should be aware that efficiency in that context has little to do with the amount of time the stove will actually heat their home. Don't you find it interesting that the Ideal Steel has a 3.2 cf firebox but yet most owners are reporting real world burn times of 10-14 hours? While owners of the Blaze King products with a smaller firebox (2.75 & 2.85 cf) are reporting TWO TIMES that amount. That is not an insignificant difference...that is HUGE. And to be clear, when I say burn times I mean burn times that actually heat the home. I know BrianK and others will get on here and debate that until the cows come home but it's difficult to debate facts. How in the world can there be such a big difference? Two words: HEATING EFFICIENCY.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Kinda took what I said out of context didn't you Chris? You are right, "how well a stove burns" is a vague term but that's not really what I said is it. I said, "how well a stove burns, extracts, and delivers heat to your home." BIG difference because what you quoted is referring only to the burn and what I stated is referring to the heating efficiency of the stove. And I never said "how well a stove burns" was the definition of efficiency so please don't insinuate that I did. But hey, your buddy BrianK likes it so I guess it's not all bad
> 
> The "real world" efficiency of a wood stove is not hard to understand contrary to what many will have us believe. You have X amount of wood (fuel), capable of creating X amount of heat and there will be X amount of loss up the flue. You are right when you say, "the particulate test can be used to calculate the efficiency of energy extraction from the wood." But that has NOTHING to do with getting that heat transferred from the inside of the stove to the inside of the house. You are referring to efficiency like the EPA where only the particulate emitted is measured (and energy released calculated). I am only talking about heating efficiency which is how much heat energy is actually transferred to the inside of the home.
> 
> I stand by what I've stated in this thread. Woodstock is pushing the Ideal Steel as a super efficient stove and in the real world, it is not. Potential buyers should be aware that efficiency in that context has little to do with the amount of time the stove will actually heat their home. Don't you find it interesting that the Ideal Steel has a 3.2 cf firebox but yet most owners are reporting real world burn times of 10-14 hours? While owners of the Blaze King products with a smaller firebox (2.75 & 2.85 cf) are reporting TWO TIMES that amount. That is not an insignificant difference...that is HUGE. And to be clear, when I say burn times I mean burn times that actually heat the home. I know BrianK and others will get on here and debate that until the cows come home but it's difficult to debate facts. How in the world can there be such a big difference? Two words: HEATING EFFICIENCY.


I have zero interest in your Blaze King vs. Woodstock crusade, rather I find it tedious. My interest is in trying to cut through the confusion that surrounds stove operation, much of it caused by ill-used, incorrect and meaningless terminology.

The energy is stored in the wood in the form of carbon bonds. When you break those bonds you release the energy. There are only two places then energy can go - through the walls of the stove and into the living space through thermal conduction, convection and radiation, or up the flue (stack loss). Any modern stove of similar design will have a stack loss that is determined primarily by the size of the air inlet, which is adjustable. So if your theory is that one stove has a greater stack loss than another stove of similar design, then it must have a larger air inlet that can not be adjusted out (which would be easy to verify).

You are defining heating efficiency as the percentage of heat extracted from wood minus the stack loss. The amount of particulates (carbon bonds not broken) is a good measure of total energy extracted from the wood load, and the stack loss will be very similar between two stoves of similar type, so in fact two stoves that have similar particulate emissions will also have similar heating efficiency.

This whole heating efficiency and stack loss canard is the same argument WS was using to try explain where the heat went with secondary burn stove and why it didn't heat his home, but it didn't wash there either. The problem is not _*efficiency*_, it is the *rate *of heat output. When calculating the "heating efficiency" there is absolutely no time term involved, it is only about the magnitude of energy you get - even if you could make a stove that took a week to extract 99.99% of the energy of a load of wood and all of it entered the living space, you would still freeze to death because that is a very low rate of heat energy output.

If you are comparing two stoves of similar particulate emissions ratings, but one has a bigger firebox and holds more wood, then they will both have similar heating efficiencies, but one will have a higher heat output rate.


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## BrianK (Feb 13, 2015)




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## Ambull01 (Feb 13, 2015)

BrianK said:


> View attachment 403269



Nice. I'm more and more impressed with England's Stove Works! An A+ rating selling in a big box store to what I assume would be less than knowledgeable wood burners.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

LOL - I've been very happy with my US Stoves Magnolia for at least 7 years now.


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## zogger (Feb 13, 2015)

Red Mountain Majic Automatic No 122...still kicking out the therms after generations....cabin still warm just on a thin layer of coals from wood I chucked in earlier this morning, dog water bowls outside still frozen solid, I just checked. Not too many hours burn time with it, but...starts fast, throws heat like crazy with a few sticks and then some splits, and useable heat from a cold start literally within minutes, like 4-5.

Notice auxiliary toploading spiffyness, will fit a decent fat ugly for sure, drop one in at night, crank the air closed, let the door cracks feed it, stays warm, decent coals to restart it in the morning. In any sort of house with modern insulation it would be even better, this cabin is one leaky SOB.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 13, 2015)

zogger said:


> Red Mountain Majic Automatic No 122...still kicking out the therms after generations....cabin still warm just on a thin layer of coals from wood I chucked in earlier this morning, dog water bowls outside still frozen solid, I just checked. Not too many hours burn time with it, but...starts fast, throws heat like crazy with a few sticks and then some splits, and useable heat from a cold start literally within minutes, like 4-5.
> 
> Notice auxiliary toploading spiffyness, will fit a decent fat ugly for sure, drop one in at night, crank the air closed, let the door cracks feed it, stays warm, decent coals to restart it in the morning. In any sort of house with modern insulation it would be even better, this cabin is one leaky SOB.



I thought that was a toilet for a second. Would be a nice warm seat.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2015)




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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> I thought that was a toilet for a second. Would be a nice warm seat.


Me too, especially after the description: *"will fit a decent fat ugly for sure, drop one in at night, crank the air closed...."*


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## Ambull01 (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Me too, especially after the description: *"will fit a decent fat ugly for sure, drop one in at night, crank the air closed...."*



lmao. Needed that laugh.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> You are defining heating efficiency as the percentage of heat extracted from wood minus the stack loss. The amount of particulates (carbon bonds not broken) is a good measure of total energy extracted from the wood load, and the stack loss will be very similar between two stoves of similar type, _*so in fact two stoves that have similar particulate emissions will also have similar heating efficiency.*_



Ok, I'm going to tell you straight up, I think that is complete BS. The Ideal Steel and Blaze King Ashford 30 have similar particulate emissions but the Ashford 30 will heat a home TWO TIMES as long on the same wood. Same thing with the Chinook 30 and the Sirocco 30. Heck, the Princess produces more than twice the particulate emissions as the Ideal Steel and the same can be said for it as well. All of these models hold LESS FUEL than the Ideal Steel.

People can debate this all day long but it doesn't change the facts. Explain that to me Chris. And I'm being completely serious. If I'm wrong about heating efficiency, then please explain to me how this is possible.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> the Ashford 30 will heat a home TWO TIMES as long


More undefined words - what does this mean? 

Are you saying it extracts 2 times as much energy from the same wood load? 

Are you saying they both extract similar energy from the wood load but one looses 3 times* as much of it up the stack (not particulates, but heat directly)?
Are you saying one burns 2 times as long but at 1/2 the energy output rate?
Show me a 3rd party standardized test that shows the two stoves, and how one extracts 2 times the energy from the same load of wood, or puts 2 times the energy into the house.

There is a certain amount of energy in the wood load. Particulates up the stack represent energy in the form of carbon bonds not broken, but both perform similarly. There are two paths for the energy to take - into the room or up the stack. If the energy did not stay in unburned particulates, and did not enter the living space, then it MUST have gone up the stack - why would this be? With similar catalysts why would one lose so much more heat up the stack, and why couldn't you adjust the air inlet to correct that?

Perhaps you are proposing that the secondary combustion inlets cause this extra loss up the stack? I could believe that the secondary air inlet would increase air inlet and loss up the stack somewhat, but would also increase the peak heat output rate. I see that the Woodstock Hybrid controls both primary and secondary air, so I see no reason it should need to lose more heat up the stack. 

These stoves have similar efficiencies of extracting heat from the wood, and the only thing you've got to work with is the heat loss up the stack. Given that, the claim that one stove "will heat a home TWO TIMES as long" is either a very bold claim that would require an absolutely staging advancement (hard to imagine given they're both iron boxes), or the claim is just just an unremarkable statement of the age old tradeoff between output rate and burn time. 

*Energy into the room = Energy extracted - Energy up the stack
Er = Et - Es
80 = 100 - 20
40 = 100 - 60
60/20 = 3


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> More undefined words - what does this mean?
> 
> Are you saying it extracts 2 times as much energy from the same wood load?
> 
> ...



What does it mean? It means you need to do more research. It means you are trying to make this more complicated than it really is. It means, for you to be taken seriously, you need to try one of the BK products. It also means I am still waiting for you to answer the question I have asked you twice.


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## Del_ (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Ok, I'm going to tell you straight up, I think that is complete BS. The Ideal Steel and Blaze King Ashford 30 have similar particulate emissions but the Ashford 30 will heat a home TWO TIMES as long on the same wood. Same thing with the Chinook 30 and the Sirocco 30. Heck, the Princess produces more than twice the particulate emissions as the Ideal Steel and the same can be said for it as well. All of these models hold LESS FUEL than the Ideal Steel.
> 
> People can debate this all day long but it doesn't change the facts. Explain that to me Chris. And I'm being completely serious. If I'm wrong about heating efficiency, then please explain to me how this is possible.



So because a stove has twice the burn time you assume the stoves are putting out the same heat output during this time?

Have you graphs of the heat output of these stoves over their burn times?

If not, you're making unfounded statements.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> What does it mean? It means you need to do more research. It means you are trying to make this more complicated then it really is. It means, for you to be taken seriously, you need to try one of the BK products. It also means I am still waiting for you to answer the question I have asked you twice.


You are asking to answer a "question" that is undefined, and refuse to refine this question into something meaningful even though I've given you several suggestions of possible ways to do that. Apparently you wish me to confirm or deny customer testimonials, which are not quantifiable and so I obviously cannot do that.

Then you state that since I have not bought, installed and used one of these magical stoves I can't be taken seriously - well what a convenient way to avoid explaining where the energy comes from.

You're correct, it isn't that complicated - it's an iron box with burning wood in it. Where does all this extra energy come from for the BK, or where does the other guy's energy go?

I do appreciate you getting me to look more closely at the Woodstock Hybrid though - it's really a nice unit.


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## BrianK (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Then you state that since I have not bought, installed and used one of these _*magical *_stoves I can't be taken seriously - well what a convenient way to avoid explaining where the energy comes from.
> 
> You're correct, it isn't that complicated - it's an iron box with burning wood in it. Where does all this extra energy come from for the BK, or where does the other guy's energy go?



Its hard to debate woo.


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## wampum (Feb 13, 2015)

I have had my Woodstock Fireview for close to 10 years.About the 1st of December I pulled it out and replaced it with my old Fisher Papa Bear.I actually sold Fisher stoves back in the 70,s.I still have 2 of them here the Mama bear and the Grandma bear in the basement.I light the Grandma when it goes below 20 degrees.

Okay why did I pull my Woodstock?In 10 years I am on my second Cat,no big deal.The last one cost me around $90.About 4 years ago I had to replace the cast iron baffle that holds the door that allows the heat to go through the Cat or directly to the chimney.This cost me about $150 if I remember correctly.I noticed that the stove was not heating as well as in the past when it started getting cold in December,my bad.That baffle warped again,heat was going directly up the chimney and not through the Cat.I failed to look it over well last summer,I never dreamed it warped already.So I would have been with out the stove for at least a week while waiting on new parts,so I put the old Fisher back in.The Fisher uses more wood but it makes more heat and holds a fire easily over night.

I like the Woodstock because I burn less wood so I will replace the cast iron once again.I did go to their site to check out the IS and noticed the completely changed the design of the Fireview. I will call them next week and see if I can upgrade my stove to the new design.The Cat on my stove is in the center,the new design places the Cat on the left side.My experience has been they are good people to deal with.I picked my stove up at the factory and met a couple of them.I am sure they changed the design for a reason.Putting it to one side would most likely give it more strength,that may stop the warping problem,we will see.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

Del_ said:


> So because a stove has twice the burn time you assume the stoves are putting out the same heat output during this time?
> 
> Have you graphs of the heat output of these stoves over their burn times?
> 
> If not, you're making unfounded statements.



You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.

And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat


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## BrianK (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I do appreciate you getting me to look more closely at the Woodstock Hybrid though - it's really a nice unit.


Here's an account that a fellow Woodstock customer related elsewhere today:

I walked into Woodstock's store in early January carrying the the unshielded version of the PH cooktop with a crack in it. I was met by Tom (the owner), who had never met me before, and I didn't immediately introduce myself as an IS beta tester from last year. He took one glance at the cooktop propped up beside me, smiled and asked if I could wait a minute or two while he got me a replacement. He came back out in a little bit, apologizing for the wait because he had to attach the heat shield to a new top since everyone else was quite busy. No charge. No questions. Smiles, apologies, and thank-you's for the business. I don't get that service on things I spend 10x the money on.​
The original unshielded PH cooktop would have been shipped with the first batch of stoves early in 2011. It was upgraded later. 

How many businesses have an owner willing to do that, with apologies, no questions asked, four years after the stove's production? How many customers ever get to meet the owner of the company that manufactured their stove, let alone be waited on by them?

Its nice to deal with a small company whose number one priority is customer service and satisfaction.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

BrianK said:


> Here's an account that a fellow Woodstock customer related elsewhere today:
> 
> I walked into Woodstock's store in early January carrying the the unshielded version of the PH cooktop with a crack in it. I was met by Tom (the owner), who had never met me before, and I didn't immediately introduce myself as an IS beta tester from last year. He took one glance at the cooktop propped up beside me, smiled and asked if I could wait a minute or two while he got me a replacement. He came back out in a little bit, apologizing for the wait because he had to attach the heat shield to a new top since everyone else was quite busy. No charge. No questions. Smiles, apologies, and thank-you's for the business. I don't get that service on things I spend 10x the money on.​
> The original unshielded PH cooktop would have been shipped with the first batch of stoves early in 2011. It was upgraded later.
> ...



You're a funny dude Brian. Just yesterday you said, _*"I don't like seeing exact quotes here from AnotherSite's thread"*_ and today you are cutting and pasting from another web site. I guess if it fits your agenda it's ok?


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## Del_ (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.
> 
> And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat



Hundreds of testimonials can be found for any major wood stove company, so testimonials are of limited value.

I find it highly unlikely that Blazeking is getting from what you are saying close to double the real world heat out of the same quantity of fuel that Woodstock.

I'd find some controlled testing highly interesting.


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## BrianK (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> You're a funny dude Brian. Just yesterday you said, _*"I don't like seeing exact quotes here from AnotherSite's thread"*_ and today you are cutting a pasting from another web site. I guess if it fits your agenda it's ok?


LOL! One of your buddies was posting voluminous excerpts from your posts here at another forum. The posts were way off topic, but that obviously fits your agenda.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> You're right Del, I'm just making all this up to make me look cool. My King really isn't capable of heating an average size house with standard insulation for 30-40 hours during some pretty cold temps. And the hundreds of testimonials of other people heating their homes for 20-30 hours with a Princess, Ashford 30, Chinook 30, or a Sirocco 30 are all a bunch of lies also. Yep, you guys got it all figured out.
> 
> And Chris, I hope you buy an Ideal Steel. Enjoy your ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty and your 10-14 hours of real world heat


Your response to Del had nothing to do with what he had stated. Nobody has said your BK can't heat. 

How does it heat twice as long as a similar stove, when tests show they both extract the same amount of heat from the wood? You seem to have forgotten this claim. 

I'll keep using my cheap US Stoves secondary combustion stove, which appears to have suffered no deterioration of any kind after 7 years. I think I got my $775 worth. And I'm still not much interested in any product that requires periodic replacement of specialized parts from a small manufacturer, as I expect many such companies will be out of business in a few years.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

BrianK said:


> LOL! One of your buddies was posting voluminous excerpts from your posts here at another forum. The posts were way off topic, but that obviously fits your agenda.



How does someone else's "voluminous excerpts" on another forum have anything to do with my agenda? Your post makes about as much sense as a person claiming Woodstock stoves have a 50 year unconditional warranty, only cost $129, and will burn all season on two pieces of wood.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Your response to Del had nothing to do with what he had stated. Nobody has said your BK can't heat.
> 
> How does it heat twice as long as a similar stove, when tests show they both extract the same amount of heat from the wood? You seem to have forgotten this claim.
> 
> I'll keep using my cheap US Stoves secondary combustion stove, which appears to have suffered no deterioration of any kind after 7 years. I think I got my $775 worth. And I'm still not much interested in any product that requires periodic replacement of specialized parts from a small manufacturer, as I expect many such companies will be out of business in a few years.



Well to tell you truthfully, you are far better off with your stove priced at $775 than you would be buying an Ideal Steel at $2000. I would buy an Englander 30-NC from Home Depot for $899 any day of the week before I would buy an Ideal Steel. Just not that much of a performance difference to justify paying $2000.

And you do realize that Blaze King has been using cats for over 30 years right? Not much chance of cat manufacturers going out of business. Cats are here to stay.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Well to tell you truthfully, you are far better off with your stove priced at $775 then you would be buying an Ideal Steel at $2000.
> 
> And you do realize that Blaze King has been using cats for over 20 years right? Not much chance of cat manufacturers going out of business. Cats are here to stay.


I'm still waiting to hear where the energy comes from, and how the BK burns twice as long as a similar cat stove.


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## Idahonative (Feb 13, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> I'm still waiting to hear where the energy comes from, and how the BK burns twice as long as a similar cat stove.



Chris, you really need to start paying more attention when you are in my class


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## Chris-PA (Feb 13, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Chris, you really need to start paying more attention when you are in my class


Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anything - you're avoiding the previous claims you made and cannot back up with any kind of real science.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 13, 2015)

wampum said:


> I have had my Woodstock Fireview for close to 10 years.About the 1st of December I pulled it out and replaced it with my old Fisher Papa Bear.I actually sold Fisher stoves back in the 70,s.I still have 2 of them here the Papa bear and the Grandma bear in the basement.I light the Grandma when it goes below 20 degrees.
> 
> Okay why did I pull my Woodstock?In 10 years I am on my second Cat,no big deal.The last one cost me around $90.About 4 years ago I had to replace the cast iron baffle that holds the door that allows the heat to go through the Cat or directly to the chimney.This cost me about $150 if I remember correctly.I noticed that the stove was not heating as well as in the past when it started getting cold in December,my bad.That baffle warped again,heat was going directly up the chimney and not through the Cat.I failed to look it over well last summer,I never dreamed it warped already.So I would have been with out the stove for at least a week while waiting on new parts,so I put the old Fisher back in.The Fisher uses more wood but it makes more heat and holds a fire easily over night.
> 
> I like the Woodstock because I burn less wood so I will replace the cast iron once again.I did go to their site to check out the IS and noticed the completely changed the design of the Fireview. I will call them next week and see if I can upgrade my stove to the new design.The Cat on my stove is in the center,the new design places the Cat on the left side.My experience has been they are good people to deal with.I picked my stove up at the factory and met a couple of them.I am sure they changed the design for a reason.Putting it to one side would most likely give it more strength,that may stop the warping problem,we will see.



How big is the firebox on the Fisher?


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## wampum (Feb 13, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> How big is the firebox on the Fisher?




About 18X18 X30


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## Idahonative (Feb 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anything - you're avoiding the previous claims you made and _*cannot back up with any kind of real science.*_



The "real science" is sitting in my living room as we speak, heating our home for 24 hrs. straight on pine. Tell your buddy Brian to try that with his super efficient Ideal Steel. He'd be lucky to get 8 hours. You see Chris, unlike you, I actually own and operate one of the stoves being discussed. When you buy your Ideal Steel, come back and we can have a grown up discussion. Until then, you have been grounded from my class and won't be allowed to participate


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## 1project2many (Feb 14, 2015)

Manufacturer's graphs showing output over time would do much to help evaluate this. Anecdotal evidence is much less reliable. There was a Blaze King owner here claiming 40 hrs of heat out of a single fill a few years ago. Turned out he was in a small shack with a big stove and he found coals in the ashes 40 hrs after he started his fire. 40 hrs of something still burning in the stove is not the same as 40 hrs of useful heat. Gauging and comparing useful heat output is tougher without objective data.

I've read some of Chris' replies to other threads. I have a feeling that you could learn something about the terms used in engineering and science if you pay attention to what he says.


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## anlrolfe (Feb 14, 2015)

I've heard too much crying over the years of catalytic combustors going bad leaving a once high end stove nearly useless. A few I've known removed the catalytic unit and tried to operate their stoves without. They reported terrible efficiency and poor performance after the amputation. Exercising the catalytic up to a high temp especially at first start has got to help but plugging will happen all the quicker if the stove is run infrequently or low output for extended times. Is that partially operator error, perhaps.

IMHO, I like the secondary burn stoves that don't use burner tubes. Some use a steel plate that "washboards" across the top of the firebox.

Aim towards the top of this list and you'll do good in the long haul:



BrianK said:


>


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## Chris-PA (Feb 14, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> The "real science" is sitting in my living room as we speak, heating our home for 24 hrs. straight on pine. Tell your buddy Brian to try that with his super efficient Ideal Steel. He'd be lucky to get 8 hours. You see Chris, unlike you, I actually own and operate one of the stoves being discussed. When you buy your Ideal Steel, come back and we can have a grown up discussion. Until then, you have been grounded from my class and won't be allowed to participate


So what? When did I ever address the absolute burn time of your stove? I guess since I'm unlikely to own either of these stoves then I'll never get how the magic works?

I find your attitude to be rather arrogant. You are not holding class here and I'm surely not your student - you don't get to assume a position of authority just because you'd like it to be so. Further you are not teaching anything. You've made claims that are poorly defined and refuse to specify what you really mean, and now use an appeal to authority to try to end the discussion without having supported those claims. That's not how "grown ups" discuss things, rather it smells like a con job that got exposed. 

By following the energy flow from the source in the logs to it's final dissipation at the local background temperature one can evaluate claims rather quickly, whether one owns the product or not. Your claims are like a half-finished high school math word problem, in that you've carefully avoided supplying the last bit of information so they cannot be evaluated (and risk being shown to be false). 

I get that you like your stove, and it may well be a very good one, but it is not magic. It cannot delver multiple time more energy into the living space when compared to other similar design stoves that are proven to burn with equivalent combustion efficiency.



anlrolfe said:


> IMHO, I like the secondary burn stoves that don't use burner tubes. Some use a steel plate that "washboards" across the top of the firebox.


That is how both of mine are - they seem quite sturdy and I've seen no signs of deterioration or clogging.


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## Idahonative (Feb 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> So what? When did I ever address the absolute burn time of your stove? I guess since I'm unlikely to own either of these stoves then I'll never get how the magic works?
> 
> I find your attitude to be rather arrogant. You are not holding class here and I'm surely not your student - you don't get to assume a position of authority just because you'd like it to be so. Further you are not teaching anything. You've made claims that are poorly defined and refuse to specify what you really mean, and now use an appeal to authority to try to end the discussion without having supported those claims. That's not how "grown ups" discuss things, rather it smells like a con job that got exposed.
> 
> ...



Settle down Chris. You are taking this too seriously...my comments to you were in good fun. I've read a lot of your posts on this site and for the most part, found them useful.

Visited another site this morning and the first person I thought of was you and your need for "evidence". One Ideal Steel owner put some info out this morning that supports what I'm saying. Appears to me that his Ideal Steel is struggling to heat his home OVERNIGHT with the colder temps:

_*"Just walked by the t-Stat and has dropped to 67*. Highs of 14* and cloudy I may have to throw a small load in during the day"*_

Keep in mind, this is coming from one of the die hard Ideal Steel owners over there. I want you to pay particular attention to the frowny face because that speaks volumes how this owner feels. Scientific evidence? Who needs it...just listen to the Ideal Steel owners in their own words. If anyone wants the address, PM me.

It looks like it's gotten so dicey over there that the "head Ideal Steel leader" posted today,_* "PM sent to the IS owners".*_ I can only imagine what was said. It probably went something like this: Hey guys, be really careful what you say about your Ideal Steel. People are watching our thread and posting what we say on other sites. Can't have real world burn times getting out there because it might support what Idahonative is saying.

It's gotten to the point where BrianK doesn't want to post anything on this forum: _*"There's just too much pathological behavior going on here to have a rational reasonable discussion."*_ I guess the facts are hard to discuss if everyone's not on board with the stove you love. It's much easier to go to another site where other like minded owners can stroke your ego.


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## BeatCJ (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm tired of the bickering.

I'll probably not come back to this thread. Too bad, it started out as good discussion.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 14, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Settle down Chris. You are taking this too seriously...my comments to you were in good fun. I've read a lot of your posts on this site and for the most part, found them useful.
> 
> Visited another site this morning and the first person I thought of was you and your need for "evidence". One Ideal Steel owner put some info out this morning that supports what I'm saying. Appears to me that his Ideal Steel is struggling to heat his home OVERNIGHT with the colder temps:
> 
> ...


All very nice, but irrelevant. Let's take it one step at a time:

Do you agree that since these two stoves produced about the same particulate emissions from the standard load of wood, that they therefore extracted about the same amount of energy from that load?


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## Chris-PA (Feb 14, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> I'm tired of the bickering.
> 
> I'll probably not come back to this thread. Too bad, it started out as good discussion.


Agreed, but this kind of blatant propagandizing and brand bias is part of why there is so much confusion out there about stoves. It's fine to say "I'm really happy with my stove and it works really well for me" - that's a good data point for someone considering a stove. When it moves into relentlessly pushing fantastical claims that defy reason, then I think that should be exposed.

I really could care less about these two specific brands or stoves. I wish the topic had stayed with with useful information on the two types of stoves, rather than devolving into a brand war.


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## Idahonative (Feb 14, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> Agreed, but this kind of blatant propagandizing and brand bias is part of why there is so much confusion out there about stoves. It's fine to say "I'm really happy with my stove and it works really well for me" - that's a good data point for someone considering a stove. When it moves into relentlessly pushing fantastical claims that defy reason, then I think that should be exposed.
> 
> I really could care less about these two specific brands or stoves. I wish the topic had stayed with with useful information on the two types of stoves, rather than devolving into a brand war.



Well Chris, say what you want, but forums are about information even if it's information you don't agree with. Me bringing first hand information into this thread from an Ideal Steel owner is not propaganda (or irrelevant). If I were shopping for a new stove and the Ideal Steel was a consideration, I would find this information very helpful. I've said all I can say on this subject and don't expect to change your mind nor does it matter one way or the other. There will be many potential buyers out there that find this thread useful and that's what it's all about. Take care.


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## wampum (Feb 14, 2015)

I have burnt wood primarily for over 30 years.Many times I have had hot coals in a stove 24 hours after I loaded it.These times occurred when the nights got cold and the next day and evening stayed warm.But never have I had a stove stay longer then 8 to 12 hours of useful heat in cold weather.I like my woodstock,but I do not like replacing parts that warp.In my experience this is going to be the nature of the beast for the future unless a design change has made the stove better.

The last couple of weeks here it has hovered in the teens and single digits.The wife told me tonight or tomorrow we can expect it to go close to 10 below.My primary stove will not heat my house when it gets this cold.I have to fire my other stove in the basement or turn on electric heat.

To be truthful I am guilty over the years of defending any brand I have owned.wether it be a car a saw,stove or coffee.I have found that this is foolish,people with Fords and Chevys pull trailers just as big as I do with my Dodge diesel.People with other stoves heat their homes just like I do.I have found that the old stoves put out a lot of heat but burn more wood.However my Fisher in the basement is close to 40 years old.My Woodstock will not fair that well unless there is a good design change.Because when the cast iron plate warps it does not put out the heat it is suppose to.

I took a good look at that new IS stove from Woodstock,looks real pretty.But it sure scares me. The Woodstock stove I have has interior panels made of cast iron that warp and erode, and need replaced over time.That IS has all kind of panels,gates and what have you that I am scared may suffer the same fate.I would be a lot more confident if that stove had a full 5 year warrantee.I read in an other post here that the person writing it said they heard of Woodstock replacing parts years after the warrantee was over.I guess they do not like me because all the parts I have needed they do not bat an eye as they gladly charge me for them.

Woodstock ads like to show you soapstone stoves that are still around over 100 years later.But these old stoves do not have all the baffles and plates inside that warp and render the stove basically useless unless they are replaced.Personally after the experiences I have had I would be very cautious buying any stove from anyone that has fancy interior designs.But that is just me.


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## Del_ (Feb 14, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> It looks like it's gotten so dicey over there that the "head Ideal Steel leader" posted today,_* "PM sent to the IS owners".*_ I can only imagine what was said. It probably went something like this: Hey guys, be really careful what you say about your Ideal Steel. People are watching our thread and posting what we say on other sites. Can't have real world burn times getting out there because it might support what Idahonative is saying.



Your typical imaginary BS.

You must not realize it but you are making Blazeking look like they use shoddy marketing practices and are using shills to promote their products.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 14, 2015)

wampum said:


> Personally after the experiences I have had I would be very cautious buying any stove from anyone that has fancy interior designs. *But that is just me.*


No, it's not. There is a cost to complexity that our society seems to be blind to, and it's going to bite us in the ass.


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## Idahonative (Feb 14, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Your typical imaginary BS.
> 
> You must not realize it but you are making Blazeking look like they use shoddy marketing practices and are using shills to promote their products.



Really Del? How could I make Blaze King (the company) look like anything? I have absolutely no connection to Blaze King whatsoever. I think anyone with half a brain wouldn't hold anything against Blaze King for the things I've said.

This might surprise you but I have no loyalty towards Blaze King other than owning a product of theirs that performs exactly as they said it would. But you can bet if something goes wrong with it, members on this forum will be the first to know. I call it like I see it regardless of what name is on the stove. If Blaze King starts making stoves that only heat my home for 10-14 hours, watch how fast I turn on them.

Blaze King is (at least right now) the Gold Standard in the industry and their technology allows their stoves to do things others cannot even come close to. Call it magic, call it voodoo, call it BS, you can even call me a liar. It really doesn't matter to me because I witness that technology everyday and it is damned impressive.


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## wampum (Feb 14, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Really Del? How could I make Blaze King (the company) look like anything? I have absolutely no connection to Blaze King whatsoever. I think anyone with a half a brain wouldn't hold anything against Blaze King for the things I've said.
> 
> This might surprise you but I have no loyalty towards Blaze King other than owning a product of theirs that performs exactly as they said it would. But you can bet if something goes wrong with it, members on this forum will be the first to know. I call it like I see it regardless of what name is on the stove. If Blaze King starts making stoves that only heat my home for 10-14 hours, watch how fast I turn on them.
> 
> Blaze King is (at least right now) the Gold Standard in the industry and their technology allows their stoves to do things others cannot even come close to. Call it magic, call it voodoo, call it BS, you can even call me a liar. It really doesn't matter to me because I witness that technology everyday and it is damned impressive.




Just curious,I believe in an other post you or someone said that stove lasted 40 hours. I have had stoves last with hot coals in them close to that,but the heat transferred over that period tapered off greatly.I just added wood opened the draft and we were burning again.But what about your stove,lets say its 30 degrees out,you fire it up and your inside temp goes to 80 and tapers off to say 72 after peak heat.With out touching that stove what is your room temp 5 hours,10 hours,20 hours,30 hours and 40 hours latter?

If that stove keeps your room temp steady or close over that many hours with out touching it in 30 degree weather,that there is impressive.


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## Idahonative (Feb 14, 2015)

wampum said:


> Just curious,I believe in an other post you or someone said that stove lasted 40 hours. I have had stoves last with hot coals in them close to that,but the heat transferred over that period tapered off greatly.I just added wood opened the draft and we were burning again.But what about your stove,lets say its 30 degrees out,you fire it up and your inside temp goes to 80 and tapers off to say 72 after peak heat.With out touching that stove what is your room temp 5 hours,10 hours,20 hours,30 hours and 40 hours latter?
> 
> If that stove keeps your room temp steady or close over that many hours with out touching it in 30 degree weather,that there is impressive.



It will keep the room temp steady without touching it in much colder temps than 30 degrees. We like to keep our house somewhere around 73 f (in the living area, not bedrooms). There are no wild temperature swings with this stove. That is because Blaze King developed an automatic damper for their products. This is the one thing that no one has talked about on this thread but it makes a HUGE difference when you are talking about "heating efficiency". You take the highs and lows of the heat curve and squeeze it into much more consistent heat. Most days, the temperature in our house doesn't raise or lower more than about 2.5 degrees of where we have the thermostat set. So the low might be 70 and the high might be 75 for the entire day.

The auto damper works just like the thermostat in your home. Let's say you set your gas furnace at 72 degrees. When the temperature gets down to maybe 70, the furnace kicks on. When it heats the house up to maybe 74, it kicks off. The same is true on the Blaze King products and to my knowledge (someone correct me if I'm wrong), they are the only manufacturer that uses this technology. The damper will open and close depending on the desired temperature in the home. It does this with a bi-metalic coil that is maintenance free and requires no electricity. You want to keep your house around 72 degrees? Load the wood, set the thermostat and leave it alone for 30-40 hours. And to be clear, that is 30-40 hours of real world heat, not just a few hot coals after 10 hours. I would say 30-40 hours of real world heat for homes up to about 1500 sf with temps at 0 degrees or above and obviously the home needs to be well insulated.

A stove with a manual air control system can't adjust to changing conditions. Let's say you have the manual control set when you leave for work in the morning and the temp is 5 degrees outside. While you are gone to work, the outside temp gets up to 30 degrees but your stove is still trying to pump heat out like it's 5 degrees. A wood stove should be like a gas furnace...generate more or less heat automatically depending on what you want the inside temp to be.

We don't burn hardwood as our everyday wood but we did two "real world" tests using mostly hardwood (there was some pine mixed in to fill gaps). We have a small house (1250 sf), the temps were mostly single digit and only 5-6 hours of sun for the entire test (test #1). It heated our home for 43 hours:

_*Nov. 15, 17:35 - Loaded the stove with 2 pieces of pear and 2 pieces of plum and filled the gaps with smaller pieces of lodge pole. Burn off until 17:55.
Cat temp: 1300
Flue temp: 500
Inside temp: 75
Outside temp: 19

Nov. 16, 00:01 - Thermostat set on "2"
Cat temp: 900
Flue temp: 200
Inside temp: 73
Outside temp: 6

Nov. 16, 06:00 - Thermostat set on "2"
Cat temp: 1200
Flue temp: 290
Inside temp: 70
Outside temp: 1

Nov. 16, 09:20 - Thermostat set on "2". Burn off for 15 minutes.
Cat temp: 700
Flue temp: 190
Inside temp: 70
Outside temp: 7

Nov. 16, 19:45 - Thermostat set on "2". Burn off for 30 minutes.
Cat temp: 600
Flue temp: 150
Inside temp: 71
Outside temp: 13

Nov. 17, 06:30 - Thermostat bumped up to "2.5". Burn off for 40 minutes.
Cat temp: 600
Flue temp: 150
Inside temp: 67
Outside temp: 4

Nov. 17, 12:35 - Concluded test with approx. 2" of hot coals in bottom of stove. New wood started burning within 1-2 minutes.
Cat temp: 500
Flue temp: 150
Inside temp: 69
Outside temp: 15*_


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## Flamestead (Feb 14, 2015)

Hi all, a newbie to the site as a member here, although I've been a lurker for years. I'm on other sites, under the same name.

I'm burning through about my 17th cord in the Progress Hybrid since we bought it in 2012, and put about 6 or 7 cord through the Ideal Steel last year. Heating a house built in 1797, 2-story plus walkout basement, with a 40'x44' footprint. Doing it mostly with wood, but also about 100g of oil per year. Prior to the PH we had a Tempwood for 10 years, which was a nice stove for its time, but quite undersized for this house. Going back further, I've been tending many different woodstoves, cookstoves, and indoor furnaces since the early 70's.

In our current cold spell we are on a 4-load per day schedule. I'd like the heat from a 5th if I could squeeze it in, but also like to sleep. Burning mostly 2yr Red Maple and Ash. I used to envy stoves that were reported to have long burns, but the more I think about it, I think I should be envying their house's insulation, or being glad I don't live in such a warm climate as they do!

Kudos to those approaching this thread with math and science. At the end of the day, there is no way around the laws of thermodynamics. One of my professors used to advise looking to the limits to help gain insight on a problem. If the perfect stove burned the same load as I use, at 100% efficiency, {edit: for 24hr} and we were only interested in the one variable of burn time, this would suggest my stove is running at 25% efficiency. I don't know how efficient my burning of the PH is, but it isn't ideal - I sacrifice some higher stack temps (550-600F internal temp the first hour) to keep the stove running hot and the house warm. But I am fairly sure based on lack of smoke and a clean flue that I'm somewhere near the expectations. Still, if one were a skeptic of my stove and methods and only credited me a 50% burn efficiency, that implies the perfect stove, all else held equal, would only have a 12 hr burn.

Clearly (and obviously) there are more variables than just burn time and efficiency; as pointed out several times by others here, you also have to consider the amount of heat generated during the burn. So now when I read of very, very long burns I am sure to apply liberal adjustment factors to bring their conditions in line with mine.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

wampum said:


> I took a good look at that new IS stove from Woodstock,looks real pretty.But it sure scares me. The Woodstock stove I have has interior panels made of cast iron that warp and erode, and need replaced over time.That IS has all kind of panels,gates and what have you that I am scared may suffer the same fate.I would be a lot more confident if that stove had a full 5 year warrantee._*I read in an other post here that the person writing it said they heard of Woodstock replacing parts years after the warrantee was over.I guess they do not like me because all the parts I have needed they do not bat an eye as they gladly charge me for them.*_
> 
> Woodstock ads like to show you soapstone stoves that are still around over 100 years later.But these old stoves do not have all the baffles and plates inside that warp and render the stove basically useless unless they are replaced.Personally after the experiences I have had I would be very cautious buying any stove from anyone that has fancy interior designs.But that is just me.



Wampum, thank you for sharing your first hand account of your Woodstock stove. And maybe, since you are a staff member, your statements won't be attacked because someone thinks you're insulting their brand. Experiences like what you had with your Woodstock is exactly why I made these statements earlier in this thread:

_*"The pro rated warranty on the cat isn't the biggest problem in my opinion. It's the ONE YEAR, PARTS ONLY warranty on the firebox especially on a new design that hasn't been proven in the marketplace. If I am a potential customer, that warranty tells me the company has no faith and doesn't stand behind their product. That may not be true but that is what it tells me. Someone said above that the company in question has great customer service and routinely covers items out of warranty and sends customers upgrades free of charge. Then why not just improve the warranty on paper? It is a significant selling point and it gives customers piece of mind that their hard earned dollars were well spent."*_

_*"Another consideration is the fact that wood stoves are constantly expanding and contracting during use. This puts stress on "weak points" that can warp or break over time. It takes years to discover where all the weak points are. Designs that have been on the market for years (or decades) have been through this process. A new design like the IS has not and with their sub par warranty, it would no doubt be a deal breaker for me. And I don't believe the guy from Woodstock concerning the warranty. He doesn't know for sure if the warranty info is on their website? Isn't it his job to know something so basic? I believe it is a company decision not to publish the warranty because they know it definitely is not a selling point for their stoves. They just play dumb when someone calls up asking about it but with a little prodding, will give it out."*_


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

First off, let's make one thing clear. 
We do not all have well insulated 1500 Sqft or under houses. If that is what I had, my Ideal Steel would EASILY heat that space for 24+ hours. Given that it is a good bit smaller firebox then the king I would call that comparable. 
Second, the Ideal Steel does have an automatic air feed to the catalyst. So rather then adjust the primary air it adjusts the secondary air. I understand that this is not the same as an adjustable thermostat, however, it does aid in stove performance. I am regularly away from my house 11-12 hours a day and my heat pump has not kicked on once all winter. This is heating 1800 sqft " 2400 sqft " including garage 70's built rancher with hardly any insulation in the walls and bedrooms above the garage. I've done EASY 16 hour plus burns.
I would love to get 24 hr plus burns, but getting a Blaze King wouldn't solve my problem. My house simply can't retain the heat. 
If your house can't retain the heat what do you do? Open up the thermostat or air control and lose all that valuable burn time. If it heats the house you win. 
I'm a mechanic by trade. The AWESOME thing about this stove is that you can take it all apart and put it back together. If something warps you can remove it hammer it and put it back in service in a matter of minutes. This is better than any warranty. If I can avoid having to call them up anytime I have a problem, then that gives me the power to do my own repairs which means I can be self sufficient. The secondary burn in my Quadra Fire cracked and broke and instead of turning bolts I had to cut, grind, and weld to fix it.
The firebox "chassis" of the Ideal Steel is extremely well constructed and very durable. The reality is if you crack or warp that you over fired it and deserved it. 
If you don't like the andirons warping you just take them out. No big deal. I'm sure Woodstock will end up making them thicker. It's a new design, but the base construction of this stove is very well built. There are signs of quality everywhere you look on it. This is coming from someone who regularly does warranty repairs on heavy equipment and I know quality.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> First off, let's make one thing clear.
> We do not all have well insulated 1500 Sqft or under houses. If that is what I had, my Ideal Steel would EASILY heat that space for 24+ hours. Given that it is a good bit smaller firebox then the king I would call that comparable.
> Second, the Ideal Steel does have an automatic air feed to the catalyst. So rather then adjust the primary air it adjusts the secondary air. I understand that this is not the same as an adjustable thermostat, however, it does aid in stove performance. I am regularly away from my house 11-12 hours a day and my heat pump has not kicked on once all winter. This is heating 1800 sqft " 2400 sqft " including garage 70's built rancher with hardly any insulation in the walls and bedrooms above the garage. I've done EASY 16 hour plus burns.
> I would love to get 24 hr plus burns, but getting a Blaze King wouldn't solve my problem. My house simply can't retain the heat.
> ...



Kind of ironic you would show up here...I was just reading all your posts over at H---th in your "Ideal Steel Updates" thread. Don't take this the wrong way but there isn't much you could post that I would take seriously after reading your posts over there. You start your thread with this:

_*"Hi guys, 
I figured I would give you a little update on how the Ideal Steel is doing after a few months of burning.
1. The stove is very capable of running low and slow. I am away 11 hours a day and it keeps my house warm (70 average) while I'm gone ( 3 bedroom rancher heating from basement ). I always have charcoal bodies of the logs when I get home. So I can stir them up a bit and get even more burn time if I want. I was getting 16 hour weekend burns when I was home during late shoulder season. 

2. It survives single digit weather for 11 hours. It did this without flaw.

3. When you burn this stove hot, it really pumps heat. On a 12 degree day I took the upstairs thermostat from 69 to 76 degrees in 1 hour on a hot burn. 

4. The stovepipe stays clean. I just get a light soot that easily cleans up. 
5. The catalyst really reeks havoc on the radiator plate above it. I have seen this plate bright red. It flakes the metal so you have to clean that off the cat from time to time. I can see that part eventually thinning out and needing replaced. 

6. The stove really leans toward a cat burn. The secondaries are very effective when you ask for it, but when you turn down the air it loves to settle into a cat burn. The box goes black and the temps really increase then stabilize without overfiring. 500-650 hot spot temps are common. At this point the cat and plate above are Red. You can see this by tilting the lid up slightly. 

7. It is not great at burning down coals. The primary air is not as effective as my Quadra-fire was during coaling. The good news is this makes for a prolonged burn during shoulder. 

Basically, my heat pump has not come on once this winter. I can burn overnight on 3 medium splits of hardwood and have coals in the morning with 70 + temps. It is an effective whole house heater."*_

You join this forum to tell us, _*"I've done EASY 16 hour plus burns"*_ and we discover from your posts in another thread that it was from the shoulder season. We also know that you are getting 11 hours of real world heat out of your Ideal Steel during normal winter temps. Come on dude, leave your biased crap over at H---th.


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Kind of ironic you would show up here...I was just reading all your posts over at H---th in your "Ideal Steel Updates" thread. Don't take this the wrong way but there isn't much you could post that I would take seriously after reading your posts over there. You start your thread with this:
> 
> _*"Hi guys,
> I figured I would give you a little update on how the Ideal Steel is doing after a few months of burning.
> ...



Who said I'm biased? You just twist everything that anyone says. I'm just trying to figure out why you hate this stove so much? It's a quality unit and yes it does do easy 16 hour burns in the shoulder season. As I've mentioned my house is too big and under insulated to do that when it's zero outside. 

What good is giving any kind of review if your just going to manipulate and twist everything that anyone says? I didn't come here to fight with you. I am posting to restore some faith in a company that you are bashing with no experience to account for it. 

Whatever your issue is leave me out of it. Don't quote my posts and mind your own business.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> The same is true on the Blaze King products and to my knowledge (*someone correct me if I'm wrong*), they are the only manufacturer that uses this technology. The damper will open and close depending on the desired temperature in the home. It does this with a bi-metalic coil that is maintenance free and requires no electricity.


OK, I'll volunteer. It's old tech, my Dad's old no-name stove from the 1970's has it. I believe it was a copy of something like a Vermont Castings stove. Like the thermostats on space heaters, it is only marginally effective as it is located too close to the stove.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> OK, I'll volunteer. It's old tech, my Dad's old no-name stove from the 1970's has it. I believe it was a copy of something like a Vermont Castings stove. Like the thermostats on space heaters, it is only marginally effective as it is located too close to the stove.



Didn't say it was new technology Chris. My parents' 1979 Earthstove had an auto damper as well. I was saying that, to my knowledge, Blaze King is the only manufacturer currently using an auto damper.


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## wampum (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative how many full cords(4X4X8)of wood are you burning in a season now?I burn about 5 but sometimes more when I run 2 stoves like I have to do when it gets colder.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Who said I'm biased? You just twist everything that anyone says. I'm just trying to figure out why you hate this stove so much? It's a quality unit and yes it does do easy 16 hour burns in the shoulder season. As I've mentioned my house is too big and under insulated to do that when it's zero outside.
> 
> What good is giving any kind of review if your just going to manipulate and twist everything that anyone says? I didn't come here to fight with you. I am posting to restore some faith in a company that you are bashing with no experience to account for it.
> 
> Whatever your issue is leave me out of it. Don't quote my posts and mind your own business.



I manipulate and twist everything? Umm, they're your words bud, not mine. And let me reiterate again, I DON'T HATE THE IDEAL STEEL!!! What bothers me is people like you (and companies) who mislead others. You need to realize that when you post things on various forums, that information is chiseled in stone and can sometimes come back on you. That's why honesty and accuracy (to the best of your knowledge) is the best policy.

You know, BrianK and I had some lively discussions on here but I at least respect the fact that he tried his best to post information that was accurate.


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

What isn't accurate? Can I clarify something for you? I'm not trying to say I'm right your wrong. I just don't see why I'm under attack. 

Please help me understand what specifically I did that you don't like.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> What isn't accurate? Can I clarify something for you? I'm not trying to say I'm right your wrong. I just don't see why I'm under attack.
> 
> Please help me understand what specifically I did that you don't like.



Umm...can you read my post or do I need to start cutting and pasting more info from H---th to help you understand?


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## stihl sawing (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Umm...can you read my post or do I need to start cutting and pasting more info from H---th to help you understand?


How about calming it down a bit. What he said on another forum means nothing here. Don't start posting his comments from there either.


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

I think what you are doing is thinking that 11 hours is what I'm saying is my maximum burn time in cold weather. What I am really saying is that I leave for work and come back 11 hours later. That does not mean the stove is done by any means.

The other thing that you don't understand is that I do not pack the firebox full usually. Most days I loosely fill it about 3/4 full. Why ? because I don't need to fill it I have plenty of heat either way and why waste wood? The 11-14 hour burn is intentional with the amount of wood I give it.

The one day I packed it full I got 16 hours. It did not suit my schedule to allow it to keep going so I reloaded. I'm not trying to give out any false information but sometimes there are variables that you are not aware of.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can clarify for you or anybody else.


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## showrguy (Feb 15, 2015)

Great :::: Now the cops showed up !!!!!


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## stihl sawing (Feb 15, 2015)

showrguy said:


> Great :::: Now the cops showed up !!!!!


Sorry, but nobody here has a badge.


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## Cerran (Feb 15, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> Sorry, but nobody here has a badge.



I have a federal breast inspector's card, does that count?


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## stihl sawing (Feb 15, 2015)

Cerran said:


> I have a federal breast inspector's card, does that count?


LOL, possibly.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 15, 2015)

"Burn time" is lousy measure - there are way too many other variables to use it as a valid comparison. How much heat was it putting out, how much wood was in it, what kind of wood, etc.


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## stihl sawing (Feb 15, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> "Burn time" is lousy measure - there are way too many other variables to use it as a valid comparison. How much heat was it putting out, how much wood was in it, what kind of wood, etc.


That is the truth, You will get a whole lot longer burn time with a stove full of Oak as compared to a stove full of pine.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> "Burn time" is lousy measure - there are way too many other variables to use it as a valid comparison. How much heat was it putting out, how much wood was in it, what kind of wood, etc.



That's why I like words like "real world burn time" or "heating efficiency". Both are referring to how well a wood stove is actually heating ones home.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> That's why I like words like "real world burn time" or "heating efficiency".


Yes, defined terms help a lot. Traditionally "heating efficiency" is a term defined for heating systems as the season long average of the total energy delivered to the living space divided by the source energy consumed. 

For a wood stove that would be the energy derived from the wood (and particulate emissions is a good measure of that), minus any stack loss. This is why it would be very hard for two stoves of similar design and particulate emissions ratings to have vastly different heating efficiencies, as it is unlikely that they would have vastly different stack losses. 

"Real world burn time" means nothing to me that is any different from burn time. Adding the words "real world" just makes it sound more official but does not define any of the many missing variables.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

wampum said:


> I took a good look at that new IS stove from Woodstock,looks real pretty.But it sure scares me. The Woodstock stove I have has interior panels made of cast iron that warp and erode, and need replaced over time.That IS has all kind of panels,gates and what have you that I am scared may suffer the same fate.I would be a lot more confident if that stove had a full 5 year warrantee.I read in an other post here that the person writing it said they heard of Woodstock replacing parts years after the warrantee was over.I guess they do not like me because all the parts I have needed they do not bat an eye as they gladly charge me for them.
> 
> Woodstock ads like to show you soapstone stoves that are still around over 100 years later.But these old stoves do not have all the baffles and plates inside that warp and render the stove basically useless unless they are replaced.Personally after the experiences I have had I would be very cautious buying any stove from anyone that has fancy interior designs.But that is just me.



Sounds like warping issues on Woodstock stoves have been around awhile and is still showing up in their new models. First hand info posted yesterday:

_*"I was cleaning my progress hybrid stove when I noticed what looks like the fireback(I guess that's what they call the secondary plate in there) is warped right in the middle. Any one else notice this? Is this common? It makes me wonder how it got like that. The stove normally only runs around 350-450 range and I've only seen it hit 600 one time when I loaded it down with a bunch of smalls. Any ideas? I guess I should call Woodstock and inquire. They've been 100% great on any other issues I've encounteted."*_

That ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty we discussed earlier in this thread seems a little more important now.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

The more I read the more I wonder if hybrid technology is really where it's at:

_*"For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure. Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.

Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.

Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at. 

I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, I am disappointed in the reports. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but facts are facts."*_


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

Agreed. My "burn time" means the time that I can keep my house at a comfortable temperature.


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Sounds like warping issues on Woodstock stoves have been around awhile and is still showing up in their new models. First hand info posted yesterday:
> 
> _*"I was cleaning my progress hybrid stove when I noticed what looks like the fireback(I guess that's what they call the secondary plate in there) is warped right in the middle. Any one else notice this? Is this common? It makes me wonder how it got like that. The stove normally only runs around 350-450 range and I've only seen it hit 600 one time when I loaded it down with a bunch of smalls. Any ideas? I guess I should call Woodstock and inquire. They've been 100% great on any other issues I've encounteted."*_
> 
> That ONE YEAR/PARTS ONLY warranty we discussed earlier in this thread seems a little more important now.



You obviously didn't read or care to share that the rest of the thread informs the op that Woodstock has already addressed this issue on early models and the parts have been upgraded. The op will call Woodstock and all will be corrected.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> You obviously didn't read or care to share that the rest of the thread informs the op that Woodstock has already addressed this issue on early models and the parts have been upgraded. The op will call Woodstock and all will be corrected.



Well that's awesome bud. Too bad Wampum didn't have the same experience with his ongoing warping issues.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

wampum said:


> Idahonative how many full cords(4X4X8)of wood are you burning in a season now?I burn about 5 but sometimes more when I run 2 stoves like I have to do when it gets colder.



I think we have burned just over one cord so far this season & we've been burning since the end of October. I will get some pics when I get time and then edit this post.


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Well that's awesome bud. Too bad Wampum didn't have the same experience with his ongoing warping issues.



Do we know all the details? No. Of course not. I'm sure there are all kinds of posts about Blaze King problems but who cares? Both are reputable companies that try their best in an imperfect world. Blaze King is only as good as the dealer you bought it from. Woodstock is a small business. Please stop singling out and harassing one company. It is not fair.

As a consumer, you have the responsibility of researching a product and asking questions. If a 1 year warranty is not satisfactory for you then walk away.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Do we know all the details? No. Of course not. I'm sure there are all kinds of posts about Blaze King problems but who cares? Both are reputable companies that try their best in an imperfect world. Blaze King is only as good as the dealer you bought it from. Woodstock is a small business. Please stop singling out and harassing one company. It is not fair.



Dude, grow up. You sound like a 3rd grader who was just mugged by a little girl on the playground. If you can't handle getting on here and discussing issues then go back to H---th where the other three Woodstock cheerleaders can stroke your fetish. Do you have anything else to add besides, "it's not fair"?


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## JA600L (Feb 15, 2015)

I just don't think it's fair for somebody with no real experience with a product to so unashamedly bash it on a forum where people are looking for real reviews from owners. 

If the owners of these stoves have something to say then let them speak. If you run a Blaze King then post about Blaze King.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Feb 15, 2015)

were is white spider when you need him.


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## laynes69 (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I just don't think it's fair for somebody with no real experience with a product to so unashamedly bash it on a forum where people are looking for real reviews from owners.



Don't worry, Many people can see thru the BS in threads like these. I for sure wouldn't make a decision based on a single thread. For us either way, neither stove would give us the posted claims with our home. Many times posted here, you see the words "room temps." I enjoy having our home a comfortable temperature throughout, something a stove could not do for us.


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## wampum (Feb 15, 2015)

I want to make this perfectly clear.I own a Woodstock Fireview stove and have used it for years. I only can attest to what my stove has done.I have no experience with the IS or Blaze King.Both of these stove may be terrific and may be the best thing since sliced bread.The model stove I have was made before as a non Cat stove.You could load it either from the top or side.Because it was retrofitted with a Cat you can now only load it from the side.My experience is that the items involve in the Cat conversion have warped and degraded in my stove.

My point in bringing this up was to have any potential buyer to be aware that ANY stove Made ANY where from ANY manufacturer that adds internal parts inside a fire box may be a problem.Look at it and examine how it is built,use common sense and decide if that stove down the road will have problems.

My experience with Woodstock is that they are good people.I have never had trouble with them.But when these parts go bad,which I believe is going to happen for as long as I own this stove I will have to order new parts every few years.Pretty simple really.I also believe that any stove made that puts parts in the firebox that can be warped can and will be warped.That is just that nature of the beast.I do not blame Woodstock,I blame the goofs at the EPA.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I just don't think it's fair for somebody with no real experience with a product to so unashamedly bash it on a forum where people are looking for real reviews from owners.
> 
> If the owners of these stoves have something to say then let them speak. If you run a Blaze King then post about Blaze King.



Uhh, that's not really how these forums work. I've said it before, these forums are about information even if it's information you don't like or agree with. Maybe I don't agree with you joining this forum just to defend Woodstock and their Ideal Steel. Well tough for me. You have just as much right to post on here as I do. And that's the beauty of these forums...everyone has a voice and the people reading can sift through it and decide what they want to believe. By the way, complaining that something is not fair just reeks of "entitlement baby" to me and there's nothing that turns my stomach quicker.


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## Flamestead (Feb 15, 2015)

I won't be following this too closely any more, but if the OP or anyone else would like to ask questions about my firsthand experiences with the PH or IS, which were my first cat stoves, or about Woodstock's customer service and commitment to customer satisfaction, please feel free to PM me or start a thread and PM me to get me back here.

Good luck,
Sam.


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## Idahonative (Feb 15, 2015)

wampum said:


> Idahonative how many full cords(4X4X8)of wood are you burning in a season now?I burn about 5 but sometimes more when I run 2 stoves like I have to do when it gets colder.



Our winters wood has always consisted of two stacks across our back porch. It is 174" wide x 81" tall and I cut our wood about 17.5" in length. So by my calculations, each stack on our back porch is 1.12 cord.

Before we bought this stove we would consistently burn all but a small pile, so just over 2 full cord per winter. As of right now, we are almost through one entire stack so we have burned just over one cord. We normally have some cold weather between now and March so we aren't done burning yet. 

We have been burning since the end of October although lately, it has been warmer than normal so we are not using much wood. Our living room, dining room, and kitchen are all open together with vaulted ceilings and we like to keep that area about 73-74 degrees. We like our bedroom cooler than that so, unless it's real cold, we will close our door part way to cool it off some.


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## showrguy (Feb 15, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Our winters wood has always consisted of two stacks across our back porch. It is 174" wide x 81" tall and I cut our wood about 17.5" in length. So by my calculations, each stack on our back porch is 1.12 cord.
> 
> Before we bought this stove we would consistently burn all but a small pile, so just over 2 full cord per winter. As of right now, we are almost through one entire stack so we have burned just over one cord. We normally have some cold weather between now and March so we aren't done burning yet.
> 
> We have been burning since the end of October although lately, it has been warmer than normal so we are not using much wood. Our living room, dining room, and kitchen are all open together with vaulted ceilings and we like to keep that area about 73-74 degrees. We like our bedroom cooler than that so, unless it's real cold, we will close our door part way to cool it off some.



Is that a goat in the 2nd picture ??


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## Ambull01 (Feb 15, 2015)

Flamestead said:


> I won't be following this too closely any more, but if the OP or anyone else would like to ask questions about my firsthand experiences with the PH or IS, which were my first cat stoves, or about Woodstock's customer service and commitment to customer satisfaction, please feel free to PM me or start a thread and PM me to get me back here.
> 
> Good luck,
> Sam.



Damn, y'all are scaring away dudes that have used cat and secondary stoves. With some people, there is no use in discussions. I learned that from my ex-wife. Just use the freaking ignore option!

Anyway, PM inbound


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Damn, y'all are scaring away dudes that have used cat and secondary stoves. With some people, there is no use in discussions. I learned that from my ex-wife. Just use the freaking ignore option!
> 
> Anyway, PM inbound


How is your stove search going? Have you decided what to do yet?


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## Ambull01 (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> How is your stove search going? Have you decided what to do yet?



Well hello there! How did you find this site? I'm about 80-90% sure I'll go with the IS. Only thing holding me back is the price of a Englander 30-NCH and the periodic cat replacement requirement.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Do what works best for you. I came from a Quadra-fire Fire 4300 non cat. This had a slightly smaller firebox but I'm sure it has similar performance as the Englander. That stove did very well for me, but the Ideal Steel has done much better. The Englander has great reviews. 

Let's say the cat would fail in the IS, the secondary burn function would still carry you through till the cat could be replaced. Cat only stoves would become smoke dragons.

Of course operating it in this way is "illegal" and probably not recommended but we all do what we have to to stay warm. I'm sure this would work with the bypass closed and the cat removed. It would then function as a normal non cat stove with less efficiency.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Do what works best for you. I came from a Quadra-fire Fire 4300 non cat. This had a slightly smaller firebox but I'm sure it has similar performance as the Englander. That stove did very well for me, but the Ideal Steel has done much better. The Englander has great reviews.
> 
> Let's say the cat would fail in the IS, the secondary burn function would still carry you through till the cat could be replaced. Cat only stoves would become smoke dragons.
> 
> Of course operating it in this way is "illegal" and probably not recommended but we all do what we have to to stay warm. I'm sure this would work with the bypass closed and the cat removed. It would then function as a normal non cat stove with less efficiency.



True, forgot the IS uses both cat and secondaries. I'll just print out both stoves with the prices listed and have my wife pick one. This way if it doesn't meet expectations it will be her fault.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 16, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> I'll just print out both stoves with the prices listed and have my wife pick one. This way if it doesn't meet expectations it will be her fault.


A man who knows how to think ahead!


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## al-k (Feb 16, 2015)

I have had a woodstock Fireview for more than fifteen years never had any parts fail other than the cat, cost around 150. first cat failed because i over fired it, my fault.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> True, forgot the IS uses both cat and secondaries. I'll just print out both stoves with the prices listed and have my wife pick one. This way if it doesn't meet expectations it will be her fault.



Just curious. How does Englanders warranty work if say you buy it from a big store like Home Depot. Does Home Depot handle any of the warranty or is it manufacturer direct?


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## Ambull01 (Feb 16, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> A man who knows how to think ahead!



Yes sir lol. Made that mistake with her car. Wife told me she didn't have a preference so I bought her a Pontiac Vibe. It's basically the same thing as a Toyota Matrix, one of the most reliable cars on the road and sips fuel. Two years later the daggone timing chain is thrown off during throttle and somehow causes some engine damage. Cost us $2,200 to fix it. I read timing chains are supposed to last basically the life of the vehicle. Now she always mentions to people I picked that model for its historical reliability ratings. 




al-k said:


> I have had a woodstock Fireview for more than fifteen years never had any parts fail other than the cat, cost around 150. first cat failed because i over fired it, my fault.



I saw the Fireview on their website, great looking stove. Nice to hear good and bad stories on stoves.


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm going to make a prediction: A few short years from now we will all look back and make a judgement on hybrid technology. Without some major improvements, hybrid technology will fail to be a real player in the industry and I say that regardless of who makes the stove. There just isn't any significant advantage over other, proven technologies. Will time prove me right or wrong? We shall see.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology. 

I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Just curious. How does Englanders warranty work if say you buy it from a big store like Home Depot. Does Home Depot handle any of the warranty or is it manufacturer direct?



Good question. The answer's probably somewhere on Hearth, I'll have to look for it and print that out too. 



JA600L said:


> Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology.
> 
> I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.



I hope not, all that sounds expensive.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I'm going to make a prediction: A few short years from now we will all look back and make a judgement on hybrid technology. Without some major improvements, hybrid technology will fail to be a real player in the industry and I say that regardless of who makes the stove. There just isn't any significant advantage over other, proven technologies. Will time prove me right or wrong? We shall see.



The advantage is there. If you are referring to longer burn then no. If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage. The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology. During high burns you get the best technology. Medium burns it decides which way to go. That is your advantage. A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove.

A hybrid stove is sort of like having a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Mustang. You use the Corolla to save fuel and the Mustang when you need some muscle.


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> The advantage is there. If you are referring to longer burn then no. If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage. The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology. During high burns you get the best technology. Medium burns it decides which way to go. That is your advantage. A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove.
> 
> A hybrid stove is sort of like having a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Mustang. You use the Corolla to save fuel and the Mustang when you need some muscle.



I agree hybrid's are clean burning but no cleaner than other cat stoves currently on the market. In fact, I can think of three cat stoves off the top of my head that are cleaner burning than the Ideal Steel (& will heat a home twice as long on the same wood).

_*
"If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage."*_ If that statement were true, the Ideal Steel, with it's 3.2 cf firebox, would be enjoying legendary real world burn/heat your home times. It is not.

_*"The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology."*_ I'm pretty sure cat stoves thrive during low burns.

_*"A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove."*_ Uhh...What?


IMO, there is no advantage to hybrid technology and I think time will prove this.


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## Marshy (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology.
> 
> I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.


 
Thats already a reality. Go take a look at the Froling boilers. I think there is a real advantage but that coms at a price. Higher up front cost and expensive repairs to electronics that you need specialized equipment to troubleshoot and resolve.


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## Del_ (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> IMO, there is no advantage to hybrid technology and I think time will prove this.



Hybrid technology has the possibility of burning off some of the gasses before they reach the cat thereby extending cat life. The rare earth metals in the cat are consumed over time.


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## Marshy (Feb 16, 2015)

Del_ said:


> Hybrid technology has the possibility of burning off some of the gasses before they reach the cat thereby extending cat life. The rare earth metals in the cat are consumed over time.


 
Although I agree with your statemnt, I do believe it is possible to over-fire a cat and damage it or shorten its life. Im not sure the exact temperature limitations this happens at but I believe its a valid concern. Maybe someone who know more and affirm this or explain how the Ideal Stove ensures this does not happen...


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## Del_ (Feb 16, 2015)

Marshy said:


> Although I agree with your statemnt, I do believe it is possible to over-fire a cat and damage it or shorten its life. Im not sure the exact temperature limitations this happens at but I believe its a valid concern. Maybe someone who know more and affirm this or explain how the Ideal Stove ensures this does not happen...



Flame impingement at hire firing rates eats away at the rare earth metals and can also thermally stress the substrate. That's were the two cat set up brought up earlier would have an advantage by switching between cats. Secondary air upstream of the last cat may further burn off some of the fuel load before the second cat sees it.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

That is kind of what I was getting at. The secondary burn takes the stress off the cat. Woodstock recommends running at a low to medium air setting. I would never run this stove wide open other then kindling. The most I will go is 50% and I rarely do that. 

When you say catalytic stoves burn cleaner, that might be true at one particular burn rate. Not across the board though. At medium to high rates secondary burn offers a more complete burn. You have to think in regards to surface area of the combustion. Having the whole underside of the baffle on fire is going to make a lot more heat then any glowing cat will.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

If you didn't care about wood usage or burn time and all you wanted was max heat all of the time there would be no point to buying a cat stove. A tube stove does that much better. 

A cat stove is for folks like you who want 30- 40 hour burns because you don't need any more heat then that. 

I would say that a hybrid stove works best at delivering to the folks who need max heat more often then they do shoulder burns.


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## Marshy (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> If you didn't care about wood usage or burn time and all you wanted was max heat all of the time there would be no point to buying a cat stove. A tube stove does that much better.
> 
> A cat stove is for folks like you who want 30- 40 hour burns because you don't need any more heat then that.
> 
> I would say that a hybrid stove works best at delivering to the folks who need max heat more often then they do shoulder burns.


 
I dont think your answers have any basis to them and it is just your opinion. I think if you look closely at other Cat stoves you will see very comparable maximum heat output ratings as secondary burn stoves have. Also, EPA only tests emission particulate at one air setting so it is true the emissions may very at different burn settings but I have not read or found any tests that measure particulate at higher operating settings. Therefore (IMO) no one can claim any different than what is published...


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/low-epa-emissions-across-all-outputs.html?m=1


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## Chris-PA (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> _*"If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage."*_ If that statement were true, the Ideal Steel, with it's 3.2 cf firebox, would be enjoying legendary real world burn/heat your home times. It is not.




If two stoves have similar particulate emissions, then they have similar combustion efficiencies (i.e. they extract the same energy from the fuel load).
Since the stove is in your living space, then that heat energy is in your living space after extraction from the wood.
There is only one way for the heat energy to leave your living space after extraction from the wood without warming the room - it would have to go up the flue (stack loss).

What is the reason you propose that makes the BK have multiple times less stack loss as you have claimed? What is different?


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

I am referring to across the board burn rate. Obviously, during a low cat burn its going to be similar. But at variable air settings if you have more complete combustion (hybrid) you gain a more complete burn in the firebox instead of emissions out the chimney. I'm sure it is not a night and day difference or anything.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

The other thing is that I believe catalytic stoves are not given the same volume of air on a high burn. I'm guessing because the cat may overheat, or not be able to keep up with the flow of emissions. Whereas a hybrid might be able to handle more flow and keep up utilizing secondary air.

I noticed that the Ideal Steel has a higher btu output then the BK King. That could be why? Just a thought.

OR compare the Progress Hybrid to the Princess max btu rating. 

I'm just assuming that a given size catalytic converter can only be effective within a certain parameter of air flow. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong. This is all just theory.


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## Marshy (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/low-epa-emissions-across-all-outputs.html?m=1


 Thats great that went to that length to document that, I wish there was a more robust and standard test that all manufactures had to follow to document emissions at different BTU settings. Keep it mind, its good info but doesnt mean that stove outshines other unless others have tested in the same manner.

Honestly I'd like to learn more about the testing standards but I have other priorities.


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## Oldman47 (Feb 16, 2015)

It seems to me that Woodstock is saying that most stove manufacturers do not test at varying burn rates because they would fail the EPA tests at those burn rates. Instead they test where they can while still meeting the requirements. The IS in particular is designed to overcome that problem so that they can use higher BTU ratings and still pass while having low burn capability that also passes. For get about the secondary vs cat argument because they are trying to attain the best of both worlds and still meet requirements with their hybrid. If I were one of their competitors I would try out some of the principles they have used to try to improve my own product line, not start a fight over what has been best in the past.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

I agree. I'm not sure why the hybrid technology is met with so much criticism. It's newer and scary I suppose. Companies like Woodstock who always preached catalytic technology have come to learn they can do better then just catalytic and are doing so. Why else would they do it?


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> _*The IS in particular is designed to overcome that problem so that they can use higher BTU ratings and still pass while having low burn capability that also passes.*_


 Does the EPA require manufacturers to pass different burn rate tests? If not, what's the point? Wouldn't the manufacturers want to focus on passing what the EPA requires?

[/QUOTE]_.*If I were one of their competitors I would try out some of the principles they have used to try to improve my own product line*_[/QUOTE] 

Why in the world would a competitor want to? What's the benefit? If hybrid technology was the benchmark in the industry, I could see your point. The fact is (at least at this time), there just isn't any significant benefit over current technology.


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I agree. I'm not sure why the hybrid technology is met with so much criticism. It's newer and scary I suppose. _*Companies like Woodstock who always preached catalytic technology have come to learn they can do better then just catalytic and are doing so*_. Why else would they do it?



Statements like that make it hard for me to take anything you say seriously. You keep saying it's so much better and I keep searching...and coming up empty.


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## al-k (Feb 16, 2015)

bk 40,863 BTU's/h constant output for 10 hr , IS Output: 13,017-60,530/hr Burn Time: 10-14 hrs whats the btus for the other 20 hrs ?


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Statements like that make it hard for me to take anything you say seriously. You keep saying it's so much better and I keep searching...and coming up empty.



That is because you are only concerned about long burn times in your small well insulated house. If that is your mindset you will never see it in the same light as us who have a higher BTU demand. Running low and slow isn't an option for everybody. 

I believe for your situation you have the perfect stove. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> That is because you are only concerned about long burn times in your small well insulated house. If that is your mindset you will never see it in the same light as us who have a higher BTU demand. Running low and slow isn't an option for everybody.
> 
> I believe for your situation you have the perfect stove. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.



Who are you talking to? 

Probably not feasible right now with this cold spell but are you planning on doing a long slow burn this year? I would like to see how well the IS performs during shoulder season type temps.


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

JA600L said:


> That is because you are only concerned about long burn times in your small well insulated house. If that is your mindset you will never see it in the same light as us who have a higher BTU demand. Running low and slow isn't an option for everybody.
> 
> I believe for your situation you have the perfect stove. I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.



Uhh...you do realize you are referring to the King model right? _* "Running low and slow isn't an option for everybody"*_ If you think the King is only for low and slow, there really is no point in this conversation continuing. There are many King owners living in Alaska and Canada that experience far harsher conditions than us that would laugh at your statement.

_*"Only concerned about long burn times..."*_ No, we are concerned with long burn times that keep our house above 70 f. If keeping a 1250 sf house like ours at 70 degrees in single digit weather for 40+ hours is so easy, then by all means find an Ideal Steel owner with a small house and try it. After you do, I don't think you will be tossing our results out like they're meaningless any longer. Under the exact same conditions, I would guess your Ideal Steel would come in somewhere around 12-14 hours. I realize the King has a bigger firebox but you are making the comparison.

I'm not trying to change your mind either. I really, really, really, really want someone to explain it to me. Yes, your stove is capable of producing lots of heat for 8-10 hours but so are many stoves. Yes, your stove burns cleanly but so do many stoves as well. And that's the point...hybrid technology really isn't capable of doing anything that's not already being done and in the area of burn time, being done much better.


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## Idahonative (Feb 16, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Probably not feasible right now with this cold spell but are you planning on doing a long slow burn this year? I would like to see how well the IS performs during shoulder season type temps.



JA600L has already answered that for you...16 hours.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Uhh...you do realize you are referring to the King model right? _* "Running low and slow isn't an option for everybody"*_ If you think the King is only for low and slow, there really is no point in this conversation continuing. There are many King owners living in Alaska and Canada that experience far harsher conditions than us that would laugh at your statement.
> 
> _*"Only concerned about long burn times..."*_ No, we are concerned with long burn times that keep our house above 70 f. If keeping a 1250 sf house like ours at 70 degrees in single digit weather for 40+ hours is so easy, then by all means find an Ideal Steel owner with a small house and try it. After you do, I don't think you will be tossing our results out like they're meaningless any longer. Under the exact same conditions, I would guess your Ideal Steel would come in somewhere around 12-14 hours. I realize the King has a bigger firebox but you are making the comparison.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your mind either. I really, really, really, really want someone to explain it to me. Yes, your stove is capable of producing lots of heat for 8-10 hours but so are many stoves. Yes, your stove burns cleanly but so do many stoves as well. And that's the point...hybrid technology really isn't capable of doing anything that's not already being done and in the area of burn time, being done much better.



Your just making up numbers with your imagination. You have no idea what my stove can and cannot do in different weather conditions. I'm not telling you how long I think a Blaze King will run. Although it does say 14,419 BTU's/h for up to 40 hours right on Blaze Kings website. How many large 50's 60's 70's and older houses can stay warm on 14,419 BTU's in zero degree weather? The Ideal Steel can burn that low as well 13,017 BTU's and that is what I consider shoulder season heating in my and many other peoples situation.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> JA600L has already answered that for you...16 hours.



No, you are wrong again. That 16 hour burn held through 20 degree weather and it was not done yet. I reloaded because I had to go to work for 11 hours.


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## JA600L (Feb 16, 2015)

This picture is taken at the 16 hour mark. Do you see an empty firebox?


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## Idahonative (Feb 17, 2015)

JA600L said:


> No, you are wrong again. That 16 hour burn held through 20 degree weather and it was not done yet. I reloaded because I had to go to work for 11 hours.



Hahahaha. Ok bud, your credibility is pretty much shot. In your first post as a new member on this thread, you gave us the impression your Ideal Steel would do 16 hour burns during normal winter temps. I called you out on that because I found on another site where you said it was during the shoulder season. You agreed and said, _*"It's a quality unit and yes it does do easy 16 hour burns in the shoulder season."*_ 

So I communicated that to Ambull and your response is, _*"No, you are wrong again."*_ I know you're going to accuse me of twisting your words again but come on, they are your words. You do know anyone can go back in this thread and read what you said, right?

This is just my opinion but you have absolutely ZERO credibility on this site. Like I said earlier, you might feel more comfortable back over at H---th where your cheerleaders can stroke your ego and praise your ever changing stories.


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

That 16 hour burn I did was the beginning of February. If he asked me a question why did you answer it?


The correct answer is depending on how much heat you need it can and will burn 16+ hours. Obviously, different wood types come into play. Most people don't burn their best woods in the shoulder. In the fall I burnt junk wood till it got cold. All I have left is premium hardwoods so I'm not sure how much I will waste on shoulder temps. I have an efficient heat pump that heats in those temps for next to nothing. Which is why I don't care about extra long burns.


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## Blowncrewcab (Feb 17, 2015)

Sooooo, Does the size of the firebox have much to do with how many BTU's per hour or just extend how long it can burn? I'm considering buying a Buck Model 91 (4.4 cf fire box) or a BK-P, I need long burns with alot of heat since wood heat is all I use. anyone here know of anyone using a Buck 91?? I use a Old Buck model 27000 now buthave to fill it every 3 hrs  I'd like to be able to put out 40k+ Btu for 8-10 hrs if possible... tks


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

This is from Blaze Kings website under the Princess model. "40,863 BTU's/h constant output for 10 hours." It sounds like that stove would meet your needs, but I have no personal experience with it. I'll let others guide you in the right direction.


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## Idahonative (Feb 17, 2015)

JA600L said:


> That is because you are only concerned about long burn times in your small well insulated house. _*If that is your mindset you will never see it in the same light as us who have a higher BTU demand. *_



Again, what you say just doesn't jive with what's going on in the real world. Just yesterday, a member from H---th described his experience with the Ideal Steel during "higher BTU demand". He is the resident expert over there and I've read enough of his posts to give credit to what he says:

_*"As I have said, I find the primaries on this stove to be weak and once the gasses are burned off of the wood, the burn slows way down. That is fine for 20F and above, in fact it is great, but when it is really cold, the stove cannot keep up. It was -5F overnight here and the draft wide open would not keep the stove producing enough heat to maintain the house at 73F. What it needs is some air coming up from the bottom, through the coals bed. Then the primary air can be turned way down to about 3 hash marks and the stove will produce great heat for a long time. But without the air coming in from the bottom, the coals just cannot be burned fast enough to produce sufficient heat, at least with my I.S. and my chimney setup."*_

"Draft wide open" and his Ideal Steel could not produce enough heat? I guess your definition of "higher BTU demand" is different than mine.

That same member has a thermocouple setup on his Ideal Steel to track performance and I know you've seen the graph since you are a member. But for those who haven't, I've attached it. Notice how, after 6 hours, all indicators start heading down. And at 10 hours, it is getting to the point where it will most likely be struggling to heat the home. 

That graph explains a lot to me about his burn times. It is pumping heat like crazy the first 6 hours, then putters out. To have real world/heat your home burn times, the stove must be able to flatten those lines out (consistent, even heat). Without an auto damper, the Ideal Steel is not capable of doing this.


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

Does anybody think the draft wide open won't make heat?


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## Ambull01 (Feb 17, 2015)

Blowncrewcab said:


> Sooooo, Does the size of the firebox have much to do with how many BTU's per hour or just extend how long it can burn? I'm considering buying a Buck Model 91 (4.4 cf fire box) or a BK-P, I need long burns with alot of heat since wood heat is all I use. anyone here know of anyone using a Buck 91?? I use a Old Buck model 27000 now buthave to fill it every 3 hrs  I'd like to be able to put out 40k+ Btu for 8-10 hrs if possible... tks



I think Chris-PA talked about firebox site on this thread right? The site Hearth has a ton of info concerning BK stoves and I've seen the older Buck models mentioned too.


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Again, what you say just doesn't jive with what's going on in the real world. Just yesterday, a member from H---th described his experience with the Ideal Steel during "higher BTU demand". He is the resident expert over there and I've read enough of his posts to give credit to what he says:
> 
> _*"As I have said, I find the primaries on this stove to be weak and once the gasses are burned off of the wood, the burn slows way down. That is fine for 20F and above, in fact it is great, but when it is really cold, the stove cannot keep up. It was -5F overnight here and the draft wide open would not keep the stove producing enough heat to maintain the house at 73F. What it needs is some air coming up from the bottom, through the coals bed. Then the primary air can be turned way down to about 3 hash marks and the stove will produce great heat for a long time. But without the air coming in from the bottom, the coals just cannot be burned fast enough to produce sufficient heat, at least with my I.S. and my chimney setup."*_
> 
> ...



Thats one air setting for one person. Thats like you turning the thermostat up on your blaze King. The higher the air setting, the quicker the smoke burns. You can run but you can't hide from that.


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

"So... are you guys getting over 16 hour burns in the coldest parts of the winter? I mean like 20 degrees and below. Just curious."
"Not me, when it gets to 20F with wind I'm around 8 hrs. Again it depends on the house and setup. I'm in a 1950 ranch with no insulation. Wind kills my burn times." Blaze King Princess

I mean absolutely no offense to the great guy who wrote this and I'm not holding it against him. He was honest. I'm just making sure its clear that even the best of the best stoves have to work a little harder in cold weather.

I have the highest respect for Blaze King keep in mind.


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## Idahonative (Feb 17, 2015)

JA600L said:


> "So... are you guys getting over 16 hour burns in the coldest parts of the winter? I mean like 20 degrees and below. Just curious."
> "Not me, when it gets to 20F with wind I'm around 8 hrs. Again it depends on the house and setup. _*I'm in a 1950 ranch with no insulation.*_ Wind kills my burn times." Blaze King Princess
> 
> I mean absolutely no offense to the great guy who wrote this and I'm not holding it against him. He was honest. I'm just making sure its clear that even the best of the best stoves have to work a little harder in cold weather.
> ...



 HAHAHAHA....OK


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## JA600L (Feb 17, 2015)

Can we end this debate now and move on with life? I'm good if you are.


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## wndwlkr (Feb 17, 2015)

Don't stop now!  It's very intertaining.


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## Idahonative (Feb 17, 2015)

I've had this curiosity for awhile now about cat size...for a couple reasons:

1. My thought (& it's only a thought) is that different sized cats will be capable of generating different amounts of heat (more or less surface area). The bigger the cat, the more heat and the smaller the lessor.

2. We frequently hear that it's expensive to replace brand X while brand Y costs half as much. Is it possible that brand X is much bigger and therefore costs more to manufacture?

I did some research on BK's website tonight and discovered our King's cat measures 5" x 10.5" x 2" for a firebox that is 4.32 cf. But I learned something that really shocked me. The Princess (2.85 cf), Ashford 30, Chinook 30, and Sirocco 30 (all 2.75 cf) are listed at 4" x 10.6" x 2". That seems really large for that size of firebox.

I tried my best to find the dimensions of the Ideal Steel but apparently it is too new. No replacement listed on Woodstock or Condar website. I did find the Fireview (1997+) and it measured 4.675" x 4.675" x 2" but I'm sure it won't be the same as the Ideal Steel. Anyone know the answer to this question? Anyone else have cat sizes from different stoves you want to share?


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## Blowncrewcab (Feb 18, 2015)

This saturday Im making the 115 mile trek to middle tennessee to check out the Buck & BK-P, However the woman on the phone says the BK she has is a Princess Ultra and may be too tall for my Fireplace. is there a height diff between the Princess & Ultra?? I dont think I saw the Ultra while doing my research...


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## X-S-FLA (Feb 18, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I tried my best to find the dimensions of the Ideal Steel but apparently it is too new. No replacement listed on Woodstock or Condar website. I did find the Fireview (1997+) and it measured 4.675" x 4.675" x 2" but I'm sure it won't be the same as the Ideal Steel. Anyone know the answer to this question? Anyone else have cat sizes from different stoves you want to share?



I've been told the IS uses the same cat as the Fireview. I asked because if I decide to go with the IS, I want spare cat(s) lying around.
mike


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## stihl sawing (Feb 18, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Does anybody think the draft wide open won't make heat?



You turn the draft wide open on mine and it will set the paneling on fire.


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## wampum (Feb 18, 2015)

X-S-FLA said:


> I've been told the IS uses the same cat as the Fireview. I asked because if I decide to go with the IS, I want spare cat(s) lying around.
> mike




I gotta ask. Do you really use a stove in South Florida?Or are you using it at another location?


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## JA600L (Feb 18, 2015)

stihl sawing said:


> You turn the draft wide open on mine and it will set the paneling on fire.


This will too. It's not recommended. I think Bryan did it for a short time for the video.


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## Idahonative (Feb 19, 2015)

X-S-FLA said:


> I've been told the IS uses the same cat as the Fireview. I asked because if I decide to go with the IS, I want spare cat(s) lying around.
> mike



Ok, I'll take your word for it the Ideal Steel uses the same cat as the Fireview. So, I will try to make my point and this isn't necessarily directed at you.

In this thread, I've talked a lot about a wood stoves heating efficiency (how well it burns, extracts, and delivers heat to the home). My point being that every model stove will have a different heating efficiency even if it were possible to burn the exact same load of wood (others will disagree). Which brings me to my question about cats and the possibility that different sized cats may play a major role in a stove's heating efficiency.

1. The Ideal Steel's cat measures 43.71 cubic inches. 

2. The Princess, Ashford, Chinook, and Sirocco's cat measures 84.80 cubic inches* (194% larger)*.

3. The King's cat measures 105 cubic inches *(240% larger).*

If it is the job of the cat to produce heat (using smoke as fuel), is it safe to assume that a larger cat will have the ability to burn more smoke and thus, produce more heat? I am obviously not an expert on cats but the above figures kind of blow my mind. We aren't talking about 10-20% larger, we are talking approximately 200% larger. I made a claim earlier in this thread that any of the stoves in #2 would heat twice as long as #1 with the same load of wood. Can a correlation be made between my claim and a cat that is nearly 200% larger?

Common sense tells me there must be a positive benefit to using a larger cat. If not, why would a company spend the extra money? Granted, the smaller cat in the Ideal Steel may have something to do with it being a hybrid. Maybe it doesn't need as large of cat since it also has tubes? I really don't know but these are interesting points and I would like to learn more.

My other question was the cost of the cats. Members have made comments that BK's cats cost twice as much and that justifies eliminating them from purchase consideration. The materials used in cats are expensive and a larger cat will obviously cost more to manufacture. If a cat is twice as big, is it unreasonable to ask twice as much?


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## JA600L (Feb 19, 2015)

I believe this is how Blaze deals with the extra flow of a hot burn. 
The Ideal Steel simply uses secondaries. 

On the low end, the smaller cat should be sufficient. 

Yes it makes sense for it to cost twice as much.


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## X-S-FLA (Feb 19, 2015)

wampum said:


> I gotta ask. Do you really use a stove in South Florida?Or are you using it at another location?


Negative. I'm here (on this site) getting an education on 'heating with wood' so when I do bail on South Florida, I have a clue as to what's involved.
mike


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## Marine5068 (Feb 19, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Man I love how after almost every one of your posts always ends with something mentioning having to pay a higher price for a superior product lol. You're starting to sound almost like those snobby BMW owners. Mustang GT hangs with the much pricier M3 around a track which is where the BMW is supposed to be the clear cut champ. Instead of being impressed by that feat they say stuff like "Well it's still a Ford." How do you know the BK is the better product!? What is leading you to believe Woodstock produces inferior products? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to start an argument or anything.
> 
> Also, I don't give a rats ass what stove people buy either lol. Just thought the IS stoves are really interesting and wanted to see various opinions.



I just ripped by a BMW SUV in a recent snow storm in my Jeep Grand Cherokee.
It felt good to eat him up and leave his over=priced arse in the dusty snow swirls....ha,ha.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 19, 2015)

CTYank said:


> Yup, that's the site. Sure looks a lot more civilized than here, without the sycophantic butt-kissers and knuckle-draggers too. Almost too nice. Never did like Fred Rogers much either.  Forestry forum has different areas of expertise covered, AND some folks that got banned from here.
> 
> Folks at hearth (before the nazis staged their putsch) promoted an open house at Woodstock, and Tom Morrissey was answering any and all question about the new-at-the-time "Progress Hybrid" stove that was going into production momentarily. A no-bs guy IMO.
> 
> ...



I imagine you guys will be cleaning up from that storm for years to come.
It was a bad one, but provided a lot of firewood too I'm sure.
You can never own too many tools/saws and I'm like you when it comes to them. If I don't use them, I won't buy or keep them around.


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## Marine5068 (Feb 19, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I've had this curiosity for awhile now about cat size...for a couple reasons:
> 
> 1. My thought (& it's only a thought) is that different sized cats will be capable of generating different amounts of heat (more or less surface area). The bigger the cat, the more heat and the smaller the lessor.
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same thing about cat sizes, and how the manufacturers pick what size for a certain size stove build.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 19, 2015)

wampum said:


> I gotta ask. Do you really use a stove in South Florida?Or are you using it at another location?



lol. I asked him the same thing. At first I thought he was that BA/Pulp guy.


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## Idahonative (Feb 19, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I believe this is how Blaze deals with the extra flow of a hot burn.
> *The Ideal Steel simply uses secondaries.*
> 
> On the low end, the smaller cat should be sufficient.
> ...



I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, _*"This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies."*_ Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.


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## Del_ (Feb 19, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, _*"This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies."*_ Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.



With the hybrid the cat sees less fuel as the secondary combustion system burns off a good percentage of the gasses inside the firebox, before they have a chance to get to the cat. This would result in a much better fire view for those that enjoy such a thing. It would also result in having an equal or greater heating efficiency at a greatly reduced cost.

I would equate it to an engine that was in better tune and not relying so much on the cat cleaning things up to meet emission standards.


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## JA600L (Feb 19, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I don't know much about how a hybrid utilizes the cat and tubes but on one of the other sites, a member recently said, _*"This is a common misconception. It's not either or. It is always cat and secondary. The ratio moves but there's no switch between the two technologies."*_ Not sure if he's correct but if he is, I could see the smaller cat being an issue when it comes to heating efficiency. It sounds like the Ideal Steel is ALWAYS cat and secondaries...it's just the ratio that changes.



The reality is that both are available to function at any time. It can still do a cat only burn. I say this because at a very slow setting, firebox temperatures fall below secondary thresholds. The glass goes completely black and hot spots develop on the top and front. 

This is just a little harder to accomplish in this bitter weather as the increased draft favors more output. During shoulder season with less draft, it will definitely do a complete blackout with hot spots. It will in this weather too if you close the air almost completely.


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## JA600L (Feb 19, 2015)

I think with the graph you showed earlier, and the setting that I know Brian uses, he likely had it set in the range of cat and secondary. 

Running on notch #2 in the spring will likely make that graph look totally different and less peaked.


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## Idahonative (Feb 19, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I think with the graph you showed earlier, and the setting that I know Brian uses, _*he likely had it set in the range of cat and secondary. *_
> 
> Running on notch #2 in the spring will likely make that graph look totally different and less peaked.



Brian described that burn as a typical winter burn for his Ideal Steel. What you have just stated completely relates to the point I was trying to make about hybrid technology. If that burn was "cat and secondary" as you say and the results were as the graph represents, then there really is no point to hybrid technology in my opinion. And PLEASE understand, I am not trying to argue or down any particular stove. I just do not see the real world benefits. That is why I made the prediction that in a few short years, we will all look back and talk about the failure of hybrid technology (unless there is a major breakthrough).


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## JA600L (Feb 19, 2015)

Like we have talked about before, it all depends on how big your house is, insulation, air sealing, chimney setup, wood quality etc...

There is a good chance that with your setup the Ideal Steel would burn much longer and even. There is a guy on the forum who burns 21-24 hour burn cycles in a very well insulated house. Brian (BDF) has made it clear that his chimney setup, wood quality, and insulation levels make things more challenging. His graphs are a great tool, but you need to figure that there are unseen variables.

Maybe if we installed your King in his house it would struggle and the graph would look the same. Then we would look back and say Blaze King was a failure  just kidding!!! 

To each their own. Stay warm!


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## JA600L (Feb 19, 2015)

Here is a picture I took of the Ideal Steel during a cat burn. As you can see it is dark in there. The temperature is holding steady. It's not making a ton of heat. 

This is 45 minutes after I closed the bypass and shut the air to #2. I will likely open it up more as it is to be the coldest night of the year here. I just wanted to give you a peek.


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## Marshy (Feb 20, 2015)

My main concern is getting enough heat. I know my stove will operate at and above 700*F peak temp when it's really cold out. It's great all these stoves will burn for 24+ hours on one load but 3/4 of that duration on that setting might not be useful heat in my application. My living space is a single floor 1800 sqft but the stove is in the basement and heats the basement (with a drafty drive out insulated garage door) and naturally rises up to heat the house. That kind of demand might over tax some of these newer stoves. I'm concerned with having to run something like the IS hybrid at full tilt an over firing it. Their web site does not list a max BTU/hr output where as BK does...


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## Chris-PA (Feb 20, 2015)

Marshy said:


> My main concern is getting enough heat. I know my stove will operate at and above 700*F peak temp when it's really cold out. It's great all these stoves will burn for 24+ hours on one load but 3/4 of that duration on that setting might not be useful heat in my application. My living space is a single floor 1800 sqft but the stove is in the basement and heats the basement (with a drafty drive out insulated garage door) and naturally rises up to heat the house. That kind of demand might over tax some of these newer stoves. I'm concerned with having to run something like the IS hybrid at full tilt an over firing it. Their web site does not list a max BTU/hr output where as BK does...


And this is key - it's all well and good to discuss efficiencies in terms of how much of the energy got extracted and transferred into the living space, but it tells you nothing about heat output rate. Secondary burn stoves like mine can have a ferocious output when secondary burn is going strong, but then it tails off. If you have no thermal storage and need a higher output rate during that period it may not work for you.

I really like the idea of a hybrid to get that massive output during secondary burn, and a cat to keep the output rate up after secondary burn - if it really works that way. Does the heat from secondary burn damage the cat? I know my flue temps do go up then, but not too extreme. Maybe there is no need to have anything "switch over" between secondary but and cat heat on the tail, because it is the process of catalyzing the particulates that makes the cat self-heat. So if there are less particulates to catalyze during secondary burn, the cat may not be hotter even if the flue gasses are elevated. 

I'd like to see a plot of cat temperatures as the stove goes through a high output secondary burn and then finishes the load.


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## Idahonative (Feb 22, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Do we know all the details? No. Of course not. I'm sure there are all kinds of posts about Blaze King problems but who cares? Both are reputable companies that try their best in an imperfect world. Blaze King is only as good as the dealer you bought it from. Woodstock is a small business. Please stop singling out and harassing one company. It is not fair.
> 
> _*As a consumer, you have the responsibility of researching a product and asking questions. If a 1 year warranty is not satisfactory for you then walk away.*_




I see you added the bolded text to your post. I agree with you 100% that it is the consumers responsibility to research a product and ask questions. Sometimes this research and questioning can be taken as an attack on a particular product. Keep in mind, there may be aspects of your stove that others don't understand and you should not take that as an attack.


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## Marshy (Feb 23, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Brian described that burn as a typical winter burn for his Ideal Steel. What you have just stated completely relates to the point I was trying to make about hybrid technology. If that burn was "cat and secondary" as you say and the results were as the graph represents, then there really is no point to hybrid technology in my opinion. And PLEASE understand, I am not trying to argue or down any particular stove. I just do not see the real world benefits. That is why I made the prediction that in a few short years, we will all look back and talk about the failure of hybrid technology (unless there is a major breakthrough).


 
I think it would be really interesting to see the exact same graph with the stove draft at the rest of the settings, especially the higher draft settings. I dont think a 400* surface temp is going to be high enough to heat my house. Maybe in shoulder season for the first month or so and the last month or so but surely not in peak season. Plus, it would be great info to see how the cat temperature responds with higher firebox temps. If I was doing the test I would do one without the cat installed too.


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## Idahonative (Feb 23, 2015)

Marshy said:


> I think it would be really interesting to see the exact same graph with the stove draft at the rest of the settings, especially the higher draft settings. I dont think a 400* surface temp is going to be high enough to heat my house. Maybe in shoulder season for the first month or so and the last month or so but surely not in peak season. Plus, it would be great info to see how the cat temperature responds with higher firebox temps. If I was doing the test I would do one without the cat installed too.



Careful Marshy, your need for real world information could be seen as an attack. It seems the hybrid crowd is ultra sensitive to any talk about their stoves. Not sure how people will do research when they get beat up every time something is said. Heck even BrianK, who seemed so professional and helpful when he did his beta on this site, said this on FHC to a fairly new member who also had questions about the Ideal Steel:

*"After the pathological postings of IdahoNative at AnotherSite towards Woodstock, it's products and their consumers, and then cross posting his BS here to several Woodstock threads, you have the unmitigated gall to feign insult? Get lost."* --- *"Please stop repeating the BS of these BK fanboys on our forum." *--- *"I just read the entire thread at Hearth. There is no low end burn issue with the IS. There are BK fanboys disparaging Woodstock products and stalking Woodstock IS owners from forum to forum to impugn them and their stove and their stove's manufacturer with patently false and absurd claims."*

I think the best thing to do is quit asking questions about the IS. There is enough information out there for potential buyers to make up their minds. Forums should be a place where everyone can give their input without getting beat up. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 23, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> I think the best thing to do is quit asking questions about the IS. There is enough information out there for potential buyers to make up their minds. Forums should be a place where everyone can give their input without getting beat up. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.


To paraphrase: "Let's not talk about that other stove I don't like, or ask me to back up my fantastical claims." 

Some of us don't give a damn about brand and are interested in how these various stove designs work and would like real quantifiable data on how they perform, such as output rates over time at various settings, etc., which is what Marshy was discussing. That's different from the subjective, qualitative, sciency-sounding stuff you've been pushing non-stop here. Unfortunately such data is distinctly lacking, apart from the EPA testing data which only covers a single operating condition and is mostly concerned with combustion efficiency and not output rate.


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## Idahonative (Feb 23, 2015)

Chris-PA said:


> To paraphrase: "Let's not talk about that other stove I don't like, or ask me to back up my fantastical claims."
> 
> Some of us don't give a damn about brand and are interested in how these various stove designs work and would like real quantifiable data on how they perform, such as output rates over time at various settings, etc., which is what Marshy was discussing. That's different from the subjective, qualitative, sciency-sounding stuff you've been pushing non-stop here. Unfortunately such data is distinctly lacking, apart from the EPA testing data which only covers a single operating condition and is mostly concerned with combustion efficiency and not output rate.



Chris, you are living proof a person can be book smart and have absolutely no common sense.


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## Ambull01 (Feb 23, 2015)

I hope you stove geeks keep striving to understand this hybrid tech. I'll keep reading this thread and try to understand it all lol.


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## Chris-PA (Feb 23, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Chris, you are living proof a person can be book smart and have absolutely no common sense.


It is my common sense that prevents me from falling for your Proof by Assertion tactic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion


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## Cerran (Feb 23, 2015)

What is needed is an independent testing lab and a certification that lays out various factors like heat output, turn-down ability, peak output and other various relevant factors to stove owners.

EPA certifications only really tell you about stove emissions, not real world performance. Too bad Consumer Reports doesn't test wood stoves with the detail that is needed.

Idahonative, I understand your skepticism but if you take a look at what you have posted, you have to admit that you have taken your advocacy of the BK brand to almost Fanboy levels. This is especially true given that there is no side-by-side comparison between the two stoves in real world tests.


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## JA600L (Mar 7, 2015)

I think the problem here is that you are used to adjusting your stove to whatever heat output setting you want and forget it. 

The Ideal Steel is a manual controlled stove so burn times are inconsistent with different people. What you see is some people will leave the stove at one setting while others adjust it every few hours etc... The operator is in control of how long the stove burns, how much heat he needs during the burn, how clean he wants his glass, and the desired flame for aesthetics. There is no thermostat primary correction. So yes two different people could have completely different burn times. 

To try and narrow it down to one persons results is a waste of time. I believe that is why Woodstock rates it conservatively at 10-14 hours. For those of us who like to experiment and push the limits, we make it go quite a bit longer.


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## Idahonative (Mar 7, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I think the problem here is that you are used to adjusting your stove to whatever heat output setting you want and forget it.
> 
> The Ideal Steel is a manual controlled stove so burn times are inconsistent with different people. What you see is some people will leave the stove at one setting while others adjust it every few hours etc... The operator is in control of how long the stove burns, how much heat he needs during the burn, how clean he wants his glass, and the desired flame for aesthetics. There is no thermostat primary correction. So yes two different people could have completely different burn times.
> 
> To try and narrow it down to one persons results is a waste of time. I believe that is why Woodstock rates it conservatively at 10-14 hours. For those of us who like to experiment and push the limits, we make it go quite a bit longer.



Are you seriously stirring this thread up again after nearly two weeks of it being dead?


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## MiserblOF (Oct 20, 2015)

Wow.. I hate to get people angry for reopening a six month old thread, but I'm going to be laying out a lot of cash for a new stove, and I have found this banter very interesting. The one thing about the Woodstock stove that concerns me is weight. It, like the much more expensive, but lower emission Lopi Cape Cod, is a very heavy stove. Even the Blaze King Sirocco 30 is quite a bit lighter, and I have been considering the 20 for being lighter and smaller. For me, length of burn is much more important than getting my house 100% to an ideal temperature. I have no problem with the house being 58 degrees at night and mid 60's during the day, and if it's 62 in the kitchen and 66 in the living (stove) room and I'm chilly, I can sit by the stove for a bit. I just don't want to wake up to a dead cold stove, like with our old Franklin and have to start from scratch every morning. I go through tons of kindling and lighters every year. If the stove is only giving out 10,000 btu's at 9 am and it's 4 degrees out, I have no problem with the furnace kicking in a little bit. Now, the old Franklin, when it's fired up and really running hot, probably puts out about 150,000 btus or so, and that's nice if you need it, but I don't. The ~ three hour burn time is also unsatisfactory. The advantage to the Woodstock appears to be price. The advantages to the blaze kings, to me, is that they are better looking (not the king and queen, mind you,) lighter, and require only ember protection. Since my father put down slate in this house under the franklin, the blaze king makes more sense to me on that score because a hearth pad on top of the slate will look funny, be expensive, and removing the slate would be - OMG - WORK! - which is out of the question. I just ran across the Woodstock steel stove for the first time this evening, and it's an interesting contrast with the BK, and significantly less money. I don't think our floor is up the the challenge of a 600 pound stove, though. I keep a 42" firewood ring, the stove and my electronic pianer across the 12 foot width of our living room (parallel to [email protected] joists.) That's about 200+ pounds of wood, stove and my butt on the piano bench all sitting on the same joists. Food for thought. Anyone else out there, maybe with a production model of the Woodstock, that can chime in here?

BTW, I have a used old VC Dutchwest Catalytic stove in my house next door that I'm fixing up for eventual possible habitation. It's a nice stove. Even though it's an older one with the grates/shaker setup, the only complaint I have is that when you open it, you get ashes and embers on the pad, which are a pain to clean. The BK 30's have a very deep well for ash in the box and that's a big plus. The 20's have a pretty good sized one, but not as big as the 30's. I have to do some thinkin' for sure. Even with the annoyance of a hearth pad, the Woodstock comes in better than $1000 under BK.


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## Marshy (Oct 20, 2015)

Cerran said:


> What is needed is an independent testing lab and a certification that lays out various factors like heat output, turn-down ability, peak output and other various relevant factors to stove owners.
> 
> EPA certifications only really tell you about stove emissions, not real world performance. Too bad Consumer Reports doesn't test wood stoves with the detail that is needed.
> 
> Idahonative, I understand your skepticism but if you take a look at what you have posted, you have to admit that you have taken your advocacy of the BK brand to almost Fanboy levels. This is especially true given that there is no side-by-side comparison between the two stoves in real world tests.


I agree with what you said but there are standardized tests which can be used to clue people in on the stoves heating efficiency. If you look at the Blaze king web site you will see two efficiency ratings, HHV and LHV. You can look them up and find the differences but it's not exactly clear to the average person what they mean. Manufactures are not required by the EPA to use a specific test for heating efficiency, only for emissions like you said. Some manufactured use the HHV and LHV, some do only one and some don't bother telling you what method they use.
Some of the things you described are not easily quantifiable however, seeing a graph for temp vs time would be very transparent.


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## JA600L (Oct 21, 2015)

First off, ignore all of the garbage from before. 
I can speak about Woodstock and my ownership of the Ideal Steel. It really honestly burns a long time on a small amount of wood. If you fill it full it would provide a ton of heat and without any doubt, you will wake up to a much warmer house. There will be plenty of heat left in the stove making an easy reload. I've owned a Franklin, and believe me they do not compare. 

What is your sq ft and layout?


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## Idahonative (Oct 22, 2015)

JA600L said:


> *First off, ignore all of the garbage from before...* *It really honestly burns a long time on a small amount of wood.*



Ignore who's garbage? Yours? You sound like a snake oil salesman. Old thread...same crap.


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## JA600L (Oct 23, 2015)

Idahonative said:


> Ignore who's garbage? Yours? You sound like a snake oil salesman. Old thread...same crap.


I meant both of our garbage. Can we move on please? Have a nice day.


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