# 2-4-D Amine and pine trees



## jaytee

Will 2-4-D Amine kill mature (20-25') tall pines? I need to spray my yard for weeds but dont want to harm or kill my trees. I read the label but didn't see anything about pines but it did mention some hardwoods that it would harm. Thanks for any and all help.


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## OlympicYJ

It looks like you should be fine. It's for broad leaf. Just make sure you are under volitization temp and you shouldn't have a problem with your trees. I know it goes without saying but avoid spraying directly on your trees.

Wes


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## forestryworks

What's a "weed"?

2-4-D is some nasty ####. Glyphosate is far better over the long haul...


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## lmbrman

we use it to spray over red and white pine planting in WI


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## madhatte

I've only ever dealt with 2,4-D and conifers in broadcast/spot spray seedling trials. As I recall, the seedlings had the tendency to drop needles from 2 years ago, lending a "bottle-brush" appearance. If there were still buds to burst the next spring, they would make it. If no buds, they died. Conclusion: if they make it past "bottle-brush" stage, they'll be OK. I'd suspect that larger trees, with no herbicide applied to the leaves, would be fine regardless.


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## Cpjlube

The 2-4 D is usually fine at normal application rates but be careful with herbicides like Triplet, the Dicamba can be bad news. You can use Triplet but you should hold off, outside the drip line. The local Coop recommended holding off 6-8 feet. 
The reason I know is I really wanted to use Triplet. I have pines scattered on the property. The results are much better than plain 2-4 D. 
There are some other herbicides the guys recommended as pine safe. I can't remember the names. But they are commonly used on Christmas tree farms. Your local extension office can give pretty good advice. 

Chuck


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## Gologit

Are there any states that still allow 2-4-D Butyl ester?


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## Cpjlube

Gologit said:


> Are there any states that still allow 2-4-D Butyl ester?



I don't know if you can buy it anymore in Ohio. My family sold Ag Chemicals for years. They said if you could smell 24D butyl ester, your tomato plants were dead. The vapor drift was pretty bad. 

Chuck


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## Gologit

I know you can't get it in California for aerial application and I think Washington banned it also. And you're right about the drift problem...that stuff was nasty.


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## Cpjlube

Gologit said:


> I know you can't get it in California for aerial application and I think Washington banned it also. And you're right about the drift problem...that stuff was nasty.



Didn't they use it in Vietnam? One of the precursors to Agent Orange. Any herbicide that strong is bad news.

Unless the weeds in my yard get out of control! The neighbors garden is just collateral damage if that happens. 

Chuck


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## lmbrman

Cpjlube said:


> Didn't they use it in Vietnam? One of the precursors to Agent Orange. Any herbicide that strong is bad news.
> 
> Unless the weeds in my yard get out of control! The neighbors garden is just collateral damage if that happens.
> 
> Chuck



245 T is agent orange i believe. Used it on trees farms here in WI, aerial spray from helicopter years back


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## OlympicYJ

lmbrman said:


> 245 T is agent orange i believe. Used it on trees farms here in WI, aerial spray from helicopter years back



2,4 5-T is Agent Orange. I know a farmer that sprayed it on his corn for years without any adverse effects on his health. I believe 2,4 5-T is illegal in most of the US now. They have years of data supporting safe use in forestry applications in Canada. Following workers that were over-sprayed and such. Also years of data following the guys in the military that sprayed that stuff, also data following their kids as well. No statistically significant adverse effects according to the last I read about which was quite a while ago.


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## forestryworks

I've always been leery of companies calling their chemicals "safe". There's a reason some chemicals kill anything it contacts. 2-4-D label lists the AI at 43.6% and "inert ingredients" at 53.7%. What are those inerts? Is that the "safe" part? Non-disclosure of the inerts makes me think they're not. 

Also, the companies do very little testing of said chemicals; the bare minimum. None of which determines how safe they are or what effects they may have. And the EPA does NOT do any testing of the safety of the chemicals. They just write the rules and regs. What an ironic agency 

35% of the yearly nationwide use of 2-4-D alone is non-agricultural. And there's those silly homeowners who spray that stuff on their lawns annually, without realizing their non-native lawn is one big weed itself. What a waste.


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## lmbrman

OlympicYJ said:


> 2,4 5-T is Agent Orange. I know a farmer that sprayed it on his corn for years without any adverse effects on his health. I believe 2,4 5-T is illegal in most of the US now. They have years of data supporting safe use in forestry applications in Canada. Following workers that were over-sprayed and such. Also years of data following the guys in the military that sprayed that stuff, also data following their kids as well. No statistically significant adverse effects according to the last I read about which was quite a while ago.



thanks for the comma and dash, i often type telegraph style:msp_biggrin:

I had to get rid of some A.O. a few years ago and quite the ordeal. Guy from the EPA indicated they had no means of breaking it down yet, so were storing it in TX. We felt fortunate we noticed the stuff and indicated the seller was responsible for all costs.

The area around the property sprayed stunk of diesel fuel for weeks. All the hardwoods were decimated(60' oak) and red pine were planted. There are still areas with no trees, underbrush, moss, nothing but sand. The dead oaks are still standing there 20 years later. Creepy look to that woods for sure.

-dave


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## OlympicYJ

I'm not saying it's the greatest thing to be spraying for your management goals. Just relaying what little info I have. I'm actually kind of sensitive to the whole 2-4,5-T issue.

I take a cautionary line though when stating a chemical is unsafe or safe when that is still being determined. Would I go and take a bath in it or any other herbicide, h*** no! I advocate just following the label. If it is truly such a horrible chem it will either be approved or not approved. It is highly unlikely in this day and age a chemical is going to be approved that is uber damaging to the environment. DDT caused such a big stink I don't think there is too much to worry about on the regulatory side of is a chem safe or not safe.

Just my thoughts,

Wes


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## StihlKiwi

lmbrman said:


> 245 T is agent orange i believe. Used it on trees farms here in WI, aerial spray from helicopter years back



Agent Orange was a 50-50 mix of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D. Toxic stuff


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## lmbrman

so, back to Bob's question on the 24D being butyl ester- I know 2,4-D is available and used extensively here in WI for ag, forestry and lawns, but is it a butyl ester or other? I cannot determine from the label.

curious

-dave


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## Hddnis

lmbrman said:


> so, back to Bob's question on the 24D being butyl ester- I know 2,4-D is available and used extensively here in WI for ag, forestry and lawns, but is it a butyl ester or other? I cannot determine from the label.
> 
> curious
> 
> -dave




My understanding is that if it says Amine it is and if it doesn't say anything you can assume it is butyl ester. 

The butyl ester formulations were available in Oregon as of a couple of years ago. I think Crossbow is still butyl ester. I know there were several lawsuits where vineyards were suing farmers with other crops when they sprayed with ester products and killed thousands of dollars worth of grapes. That is one reason California banned it was pressure from the grape and orchard lobby.

Keep in mind that even the amine stuff is soil active for up to two years, maybe longer in poorly airated soils, so keeping it off the leaves is only a start. As a general rule in landscape use we tried to not use 2,4-D more than two years in a row on grass in a broadcast application if there were trees with root systems in the grass area. Using a Pre-Emergent such as Drive 75 DF will cut way down on the need for broadleaf weed control in grass. 



Mr. HE


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