# Bucking Small Logs - See Diagrams



## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

To date I've only bucked logs cantilevered, supported at one end only. I need to learn proper technique for bucking a log supported at both ends and often on a slope. This diagram shows the situation with small implying the log diameter less than the bar length, not small as in not dangerous. 







The second diagram shows the cut sequence:






*My Question:*

Since the last cut is made from the bottom, what happens when the log drops? Seems it would knock the saw from your grip?


I'll be carrying the saw a mile or more from my vehicle at 12,000 feet, so I'll be bringing just the chainsaw and a small hand saw, *no other tools*.

Thanks


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## Sport Faller (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> To date I've only bucked logs cantilevered, supported at one end only. I need to learn proper technique for bucking a log supported at both ends and often on a slope. This diagram shows the situation with small implying the log diameter less than the bar length, not small* as in not dangerous*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Whoa Homes, I don't care if it's a 3" Mountain Maple branch, if it's loaded with tension and you read it wrong it can still wail the cat #### out of you


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## John Ellison (Aug 19, 2011)

In the top pic notice the log on the right will stay in place after the cut while the log on the left drops free. (hopefully) It will drop free if you angle the cut ever so slightly from top to bottom. Meaning it is angled toward the left at the top of your cut. Angle it the other way and your bar is stuck and the logs are still in the air. Even a right angle cut will usually hang up and you will have to wedge. Just a tiny angle is all it takes.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Whoa Homes, I don't care if it's a 3" Mountain Maple branch, if it's loaded with tension and you read it wrong it can still wail the cat #### out of you


You read it exactly opposite as intended, ALL LOGS are Dangerous, that's why I posted the question.

To the point of the post, Do you know anything about cutting safely???


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> Just a tiny angle is all it takes.


Thanks John,

So the falling log won't push the bar down? Seems too good to be true.

Then all I have to account for is the possible rolling of the dropped log, a rock or small logs should solve that.


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 19, 2011)

I've never had the saw knocked out of my hands. Basically the saw is in the cut, so the log passes it by. Also I always have a firm grip on the saw with both hands.

FYI - When learning these cuts, the saw can get stuck in a cut. Then you need another saw or a jack to jack up the log to get the saw out. Although that is for the very large trees we have around here. If they will be small logs, then I suppose you could lift them in that case? If not, bring a spare saw and/or jack.

And for the rolling after the cut. Always saw from the uphill side, then they roll away from you hopefully...


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## John Ellison (Aug 19, 2011)

If you make the cut right your bar is free as soon as the log moves. Look everything over carefully before you start to cut. This side will drop that side should stay still, this side will possibly roll and pivot, ect. ect. If you plan before you cut you can most always find a safe place to do the work from.
In your first post I see chainsaw, handsaw and no other tools. You will regret it if you do not carry at least one plastic wedge. Make that two. You can cut clubs as you go but one or two wedges are light and would be invaluable. Just think if your first cut is not perfect your saw is hung up solid, what are you going to do then?


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> If you make the cut right your bar is free as soon as the log moves. Look everything over carefully before you start to cut. This side will drop that side should stay still, this side will possibly roll and pivot, ect. ect. If you plan before you cut you can most always find a safe place to do the work from.


I like the looking and thinking part, basically you're saying the equivalent of measure twice, cut once. Lots of time to study the slope to figure out where gravity will take the free log.




> In your first post I see chainsaw, handsaw and no other tools. You will regret it if you do not carry at least one plastic wedge. Make that two. You can cut clubs as you go but one or two wedges are light and would be invaluable. Just think if your first cut is not perfect your saw is hung up solid, what are you going to do then?


Okay, I'll stop by the hardware store and get a least one wedge, I have several weeks, so no rush. On Amazon I saw 5.5", 8" and 10", is the small one sufficient? My max log would be 24", mostly 6" diameter. I like you suggested making a club in the field.

Let's make this more complicated. Instead of the upper resting on the ground, what if it's 12" up and the lower part now drops 24". More moving parts, what do I watch for or am I out of my league?

Thanks, I'm learning.


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## John Ellison (Aug 19, 2011)

Let's make this more complicated. Instead of the upper resting on the ground, what if it's 12" up and the lower part now drops 24". More moving parts, what do I watch for or am I out of my league?
[/QUOTE]

Not following you, where is the log supported or touching the ground?

I suppose any would be better than nothing, but I would stick an 8 or 10" in each back pocket. You will hardly know they are there.


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## madhatte (Aug 19, 2011)

I think the question is now about top binds vs bottom binds. The process is pretty much the same but reversed; that is, relief cut from below first, then finish the cut from above. With tree species that are prone to slabbing, it's often useful to offset the relief cut by an inch or two in order to give the pulling wood someplace to stop.


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## sawinredneck (Aug 19, 2011)

The first rule of Physics on this is the less weight there is, the less force and momentum there is to deal with.
My approach would be to cut off as much of the logs as you can before tackling the more dangerous cut. Cut it into manageable pieces cutting down as far as you dare, but not into the dirt. On most thick barked trees the bark keeps you out of the dirt, but leaves enough room to cut through the wood to free it. Then a good roll with your foot moves it away and lowers the force you are dealing with in the next cut.
Think of it as when you fall a tree, if you cut the base of the stump first you have a lot of forces working and moving as you cut. Start at the top and cut down to the base, all the weight is gone so the forces are minimal and easier to predict.
I have done the cut shown but always with a bar the reached all the way across what I was cutting. I've pinched the bar more times than I can count! I've got to start learning how to do it with a shorter bar now and am not looking forward to it at all! It's hard to master!


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## Sport Faller (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> You read it exactly opposite as intended, ALL LOGS are Dangerous, that's why I posted the question.
> 
> To the point of the post, Do you know anything about cutting safely???


 
Yeah jagoff I do, you worded it as though these logs were too small to be dangerous

Jesus, you try to help somebody and all the sudden they're Paul Bunyan and I'm fricken HBRN :msp_rolleyes:


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## beowulf343 (Aug 19, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> FYI - When learning these cuts, the saw can get stuck in a cut. Then you need another saw or a jack to jack up the log to get the saw out. Although that is for the very large trees we have around here. If they will be small logs, then I suppose you could lift them in that case? If not, bring a spare saw and/or jack.



Or a scrench (which should be carried anyway) and another bar and a chain. I've taken the power head off a pinched bar and put on a different bar and chain a few times in the woods.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> Let's make this more complicated. Instead of the upper resting on the ground, what if it's 12" up and the lower part now drops 24". More moving parts, what do I watch for or am I out of my league?
> 
> Not following you, where is the log supported or touching the ground?


For discussion, the dead fall root is uphill and the top of the 12" x 30-foot tree is downhill. The tree is only only touching at the top and root. The root will prevent either rolling or sliding downhill. I will have a lot of potential energy as the tree drops down wherever I cut. Can I safely cut in the mid span? My goal is a 3-foot wide clear path, no interest in any part of the tree.

Appreciate your time.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

madhatte said:


> I think the question is now about top binds vs bottom binds. The process is pretty much the same but reversed; that is, relief cut from below first, then finish the cut from above. With tree species that are prone to slabbing, it's often useful to offset the relief cut by an inch or two in order to give the pulling wood someplace to stop.


You've used a lot of terms I've never heard before: binds, relief cut, slabbing, pulling wood. Where do I learn more? Most likely I'll be cutting spruce and lodgepole, too high for much else. Can you simplify any of this?

Thanks for the post.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

beowulf343 said:


> I've taken the power head off a pinched bar and put on a different bar and chain a few times in the woods.


That's a good idea I hadn't thought of. But my plan was to use the 14" handsaw if I get a bind.

Thanks


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## mdavlee (Aug 19, 2011)

Top bind will be when the log is supported more on both ends and a span in the middle. When the bottom cut is made the top will bind together. The bottom bind is say whe its laying on a high spot and both ends will sag some when you cut the top.


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> For discussion, the dead fall root is uphill and the top of the 12" x 30-foot tree is downhill. The tree is only only touching at the top and root. The root will prevent either rolling or sliding downhill. I will have a lot of potential energy as the tree drops down wherever I cut. Can I safely cut in the mid span? My goal is a 3-foot wide clear path, no interest in any part of the tree.
> 
> Appreciate your time.


 
Be careful cutting trees that have been blown down. The root ball could have a lot of pressure still on it. If you cut mid span, once the weight of the top is removed, the root ball could stand the tree back up (in a hurry). Getting hit by that would not be plesant. 

Picture like this, but a lot faster. 
<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5LjqBRIedtk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> The first rule of Physics on this is the less weight there is, the less force and momentum there is to deal with.


Do understand, that's is the very reason I've posted. Knowledge is part theory and part practice, I lack the practice.



> My approach would be to cut off as much of the logs as you can before tackling the more dangerous cut. Cut it into manageable pieces cutting down as far as you dare, but not into the dirt. On most thick barked trees the bark keeps you out of the dirt, but leaves enough room to cut through the wood to free it. Then a good roll with your foot moves it away and lowers the force you are dealing with in the next cut.


It all come down to good judgement which mostly comes from experience. I'm trying to learn in words the forum members experience.



> Think of it as when you fall a tree, if you cut the base of the stump first you have a lot of forces working and moving as you cut. Start at the top and cut down to the base, all the weight is gone so the forces are minimal and easier to predict.
> I have done the cut shown but always with a bar the reached all the way across what I was cutting. I've pinched the bar more times than I can count!


I've only dropped one small tree, no need for another, lifetime of deadfall within 3 miles of me.



> I've got to start learning how to do it with a shorter bar now and am not looking forward to it at all! It's hard to master!


That will be my next question, when the tree is bigger than the bar.

Thanks


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

Here is a good video on how to cut spring poles.

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dugCSWtRaqM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It would prolly be worth your time to watch all the vids in this series.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

slangegger said:


> Be careful cutting trees that have been blown down. The root ball could have a lot of pressure still on it. If you cut mid span, once the weight of the top is removed, the root ball could stand the tree back up (in a hurry). Getting hit by that would not be plesant.
> 
> Picture like this, but a lot faster.
> <iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5LjqBRIedtk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


WOW, as soon as that snapped up my jaw dropped. Ouch!!!

How do I know?


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

Im no where near experienced enough to say "how you know". I always assume that all trees with a root ball are capable of this. I dont think there is a "golden rule" that applies. If there is, Im sure one of the fallers here would know. 

I hate to say it, but Im gonna guess that the Pros are going to tell you that with your cutting experience, your should not tackle a dangerous job by yourself, a mile from your car.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

slangegger said:


> Here is a good video on how to cut spring poles.
> 
> <iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dugCSWtRaqM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


That is so cool, he knew it would relax in a few seconds. You can't learn that except by doing.




> It would prolly be worth your time to watch all the vids in this series.


I'll watch, where are they?

Thanks, great post.


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> I'll watch, where are they?
> 
> Thanks, great post.


 
In the lower right hand corner of the video, click where it shows the "youtube" icon. That will take you directly to youtube. You will be able to see the other videos on the sidebar (part 2;3;4 etc)


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

slangegger said:


> I hate to say it, but Im gonna guess that the Pros are going to tell you that with your cutting experience, your should not tackle a dangerous job by yourself, a mile from your car.


Indeed, but I also shouldn't go on multi-day backpacks by myself either, but I do. I cannot live my life afraid of every shadow.

Thanks


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

I just wanted to give you a heads up of the advice to come. 

Stay safe.


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## Samlock (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, root balls will sit back. I know some people tell just the opposite, but that's why you should always start by cutting the timber off the stump first before bucking. Goes with both standing and blown down trees, haha.

About cutting the small logs with a top bind - don't make your first cut straight (I mean horizontally) from above of the log, but a bit more on the side you're standing. That's how you can make the second cut to meet the first cut on the opposite side first, and the strip which will the last one left to hold the wood before it drops won't actually be in the middle of the log, but a bit on the side, and you can get it out of the cut before the logs will drop.

I don't know if my explanation makes any sense.


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## sawinredneck (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> Indeed, but I also shouldn't go on multi-day backpacks by myself either, but I do. I cannot live my life afraid of every shadow.
> 
> Thanks


 
I don't think he meant any disrespect, but was saying it might be a good idea to learn and practice these new skills in a safer environment, closer to home and where you can have a little more control, rather than being that far from help if something were to go wrong.


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## slangegger (Aug 19, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> i don't think he meant any disrespect, but was saying it might be a good idea to learn and practice these new skills in a safer environment, closer to home and where you can have a little more control, rather than being that far from help if something were to go wrong.


 
bingo!


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> I suppose any would be better than nothing, but I would stick an 8 or 10" in each back pocket. You will hardly know they are there.


I'm convinced, the video shows the entire cut from the top by simply using the 10" wedge. Even though the top was in compression like my example. Seems a lot safer than using a mostly bottom up cut.

[video=youtube;jnm8WbkjzRM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnm8WbkjzRM&feature=relmfu[/video]


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

sawinredneck said:


> I don't think he meant any disrespect, but was saying it might be a good idea to learn and practice these new skills in a safer environment, closer to home and where you can have a little more control, rather than being that far from help if something were to go wrong.


I found nothing disrespectful in his post, nor did I intend any in my reply. I have no problem with learning even if it implies a mild rebuke. I took it as a well intended message.

Not sure I have any "safer" learning opportunities, but I will think on it. I do know that the trail has several deadfall groups from 1/4-mile on up and I'll learn as I go. Just as an optimist, I assume I can do it all in a day.

Thanks


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## John Ellison (Aug 19, 2011)

Something else to keep in mind, most saw related accidents happen first thing in the day. As in not having your mind on the work.....Just had a fight with the wife or, wonder if there are any Chupacabras around here?

Or the last thing in the day when you are dead tired and just have to get the last tree.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

Samlock said:


> Yes, root balls will sit back. I know some people tell just the opposite, but that's why you should always start by cutting the timber off the stump first before bucking. Goes with both standing and blown down trees, haha.


Makes sense, but this will be old deadfall, so the earth has been washed away, not likely to stand up. None the less, I will carefully examine every rootball to judge the potential. I did not know of the danger before today, now I do.



> About cutting the small logs with a top bind - don't make your first cut straight (I mean horizontally) from above of the log, but a bit more on the side you're standing. That's how you can make the second cut to meet the first cut on the opposite side first, and the strip which will the last one left to hold the wood before it drops won't actually be in the middle of the log, but a bit on the side, and you can get it out of the cut before the logs will drop.
> 
> I don't know if my explanation makes any sense.


I read the text several times, still a little confused. I put up a cut sequence, perhaps you could use the numbers in it to explain. You suggest I start by combining 2 & 3, assuming I'm standing closest to 3? Then what?







Thanks


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## madhatte (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> I'm convinced, the video shows the entire cut from the top by simply using the 10" wedge. Even though the top was in compression like my example. Seems a lot safer than using a mostly bottom up cut.
> 
> [video=youtube;jnm8WbkjzRM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnm8WbkjzRM&feature=relmfu[/video]


 
I like to treat wedges the same as I do 4WD: use the 2WD to get INTO trouble, 4WD to get out. It's the "Use A Bigger Hammer" approach -- if you get stuck starting out with your biggest hammer, you're screwed. Work up to the big guns. In this case, I recommend starting the cut without a wedge, as the wedge can give you a false sense of security. If you need to wedge yourself out, so be it -- your wedge isn't already stuck in the log. Try to always leave yourself something in reserve -- a wedge, another bar and chain, another saw, a peavey, whatever. The goal is to be both self-sufficient and safe.


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## Samlock (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok, you read my mind correctly, first you do 2&3. Then you pull the saw out of the top cut and do 1 from below. Then 4&5. This goes only with small timber, diameter will be less than your bar lenght.


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## lfnh (Aug 19, 2011)

Lotta good advice given here.
One thing to try before you get to work at 12000 feet, is test your saw is tuned to actually run well at that elevation. Quick car ride up a mountain pass nearby for the test will save some you some frustration later on. What works at 9000....

BC Faller Training Standards, Part 2 (PDF) is available online and will likely answer some of the terminology on bucking along with providing examples of bucking.

Here are some variations of the original sketch you posted. Bucking from the top down may or may not be a practical or 'safer' approach.

Good luck on the job.

View attachment 195034


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## slowp (Aug 19, 2011)

For goodness sake, I hope you are taking a file and or extra chain with you. If your chain gets dull, it makes things harder, and you are more likely to get stuck. 

12,000 feet or no, you still need to take along the basics.


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## 2dogs (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> You read it exactly opposite as intended, ALL LOGS are Dangerous, that's why I posted the question.
> 
> To the point of the post, Do you know anything about cutting safely???


 
You're back again? You have a bad attitude dude! Don't expect any help from me or most of the people on this forum. Go to expertvillage.com for your chainsaw advice.


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## Billy_Bob (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> WOW, as soon as that snapped up my jaw dropped. Ouch!!!
> 
> How do I know?



That is a good question!

I think you need to be sort of a structural engineer sometimes and study a particular tree laying on the ground. Figure out what it is going to do when you cut this. Then what it is going to do when you cut that.

They will surprise you sometimes and things will go a different direction than you would think!

I guess look for "energy". Potential energy. Is there pressure on a limb?

Things held up in the air have potential energy to fall. Or limbs up in the air attached to a trunk of a tree may be balancing it on the ground. If you cut something on the opposite side, those limbs in the air can cause the trunk of the tree/log to roll due to a sudden imbalance.

Or limbs under a tree may be holding the trunk/log up. Also might have pressure on them. Cut it and the limb might snap toward you, then the log could fall on your toes! (Double Ouch!)


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## slowp (Aug 19, 2011)

Some "slabbing." I am the slabber. 















View attachment 195082
View attachment 195083
View attachment 195081


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## rb142 (Aug 19, 2011)

Here's another suggestion in addition to what has already been mentioned. If you go to the Stihl web site and look in the video section, there is a set of short videos there on basic chainsaw techniques. They have some good examples of cutting logs in these different types of tension/compression scenarios. You might want to check those out too. It's always easier to figure out when you can see someone do it.

It's definitely worth having a couple plastic wedges with you. You can make some wood ones on site if necessary. A rock or chunk of wood can drive them if you don't have an axe or hammer.

Before cutting anything, think through the stresses. Figure out which side is in tension, which side is in compression, and cut accordingly. Watch out for the cut pieces rolling (stay uphill), sliding, or uprighting.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

lfnh said:


> One thing to try before you get to work at 12000 feet, is test your saw is tuned to actually run well at that elevation. Quick car ride up a mountain pass nearby for the test will save some you some frustration later on. What works at 9000....


Good idea, I'll test it at the trailhead prior to lugging it up the hill.



> BC Faller Training Standards, Part 2 (PDF) is available online and will likely answer some of the terminology on bucking along with providing examples of bucking.


That was the document I was seeking when I Googled "bucking". Great illustrations and lots of terms I'm unfamiliar with, like pivot point. Not an issue on flat ground, but a real concern on a hillside. I'll read it several more times and especially the day before.



> Here are some variations of the original sketch you posted. Bucking from the top down may or may not be a practical or 'safer' approach.
> 
> View attachment 195034


You're quite the artist. The last, slide is one of the reason I want to leave the root ball attached. Of course I'll now evaluate the potential of tip up, never would have thought of it before that video.



> Good luck on the job.


Thanks, I'm feeling more comfortable with all the tips in this thread.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 19, 2011)

slowp said:


> Some "slabbing." I am the slabber.


Still don't understand "slabbing" but some pretty trees. Did you drop those or did the wind put them down?

Thanks for trying.


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## slowp (Aug 19, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> Still don't understand "slabbing" but some pretty trees. Did you drop those or did the wind put them down?
> 
> Thanks for trying.



Wind and snow. I don't fall trees.


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## hammerlogging (Aug 20, 2011)

2dogs said:


> You're back again? You have a bad attitude dude! Don't expect any help from me or most of the people on this forum. Go to expertvillage.com for your chainsaw advice.


 
No mention of the day the root wad rolled over you after you cut on the stem?

15 professional fallers tell him a handful of things any pro would take to the same situation and he won't do it, then never mind.

To be helpful, mtnhermit, make sure you look at whatever is on the ground around you, what the log will hit when it hits the ground, causing a chain reaction to smack you with something.


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2011)

12,000 feet elevation? From my expierence in the Sierras, not much of anything grows at that height. Are the Rockies that much different?


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## madhatte (Aug 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> 12,000 feet elevation? From my expierence in the Sierras, not much of anything grows at that height. Are the Rockies that much different?


 
Your point is... how you say..."_solid_"?


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Your point is... how you say..."_solid_"?


 
As batholith plutons are.


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 20, 2011)

I've been watching this thread since it started. Most of the guys on here are too polite to tell ya to F,,, off, so I'm gonna do it for them. You have no business running a saw, cutting deadfalls and blowdowns, alone, miles from help with no experience except a couple of internet threads. If you want to kill yourself, I suggest a .45 between the eyes, do it outside so you don't ruin the wife's carpet.

You are arrogant (asking if a pro logger that's been posting here for years has ever done this), obstinate (refusing to make an extra trip to carry supplies that will make your job far easier and safer), inexperienced (I've only felled one tree), and flat out stubborn (I'm going into the wilderness to do something I've never done before, alone).

You, sir (or maam) are the reason that every product you buy today costs twice what it should and carries 4 pounds of warning stickers. You, judging by your vocabulary, are not a stupid person, but there isn't any sign whatsoever of common sense.

Please, either give up this idea of clearing trails, or just go away (something that's likely to happen when the first log that you cut pins you under it and you die, alone, slowly and painfully.

Note that I am NOT a professional logger, and don't pretend to be one, but I've heated my place all my life with wood, and I've learned what I can and can't do through experience, something you don't have and don't seem willing to get.

Have a nice life. How long that life will be is entirely up to you.


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## derwoodii (Aug 20, 2011)

This accident is very sobering for this threads learning & thoughts

[video=youtube;bRwkL7Nd9ys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRwkL7Nd9ys&feature=related[/video]


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2011)

I have been at 9000 feet where Pinus Monotonous grows. That was in Arizona. I have skied at 10,000 feet in Collyraddy and yes, there are scrubby spruces and lodgepoles there. I do believe a 12,000 foot hill in AZ looked to be tree covered. Couldn't go there because I am not Apache. 

Perhaps there are trees there.


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> To date I've only bucked logs cantilevered, supported at one end only. I need to learn proper technique for bucking a log supported at both ends and often on a slope.
> 
> I'll be carrying the saw a mile or more from my vehicle at 12,000 feet, so I'll be bringing just the chainsaw and a small hand saw, *no other tools*.
> 
> Thanks


 
You've been given some good advice here. Again. Why not use some of it? If you're going to be a mile from your vehicle you're also going to be a mile from the first stage of help if anything goes wrong. Wrong as in an injury or worse.

You've been advised as to what your minimum amount of equipment should be. Again. You've argued about that and refused to take informed and well meant advice.

You are obviously not experienced at this kind of thing. That's no problem, we all started from zero. But most of us had the sense to listen and make good use of the advice we were given. You don't want to listen, you just want validation of what you've already decided to do. You're wrong to ask that of us...it's insulting.

What you seem to be looking for is the same old "if I do this, the tree will do that" guarantee that everyone wishes he had. You've been given some good basic information but none of it comes with a guarantee.

I really think that you need to find somebody near you with experience that will help you. Or at least take somebody with you who can go for help if you get hurt. If your manhood needs validation by using the minimalist approach to cutting wood maybe they can cheer you on while you bumble through your task.


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2011)

I wonder. Is this part of hunting season? Like you can't carry proper gear for sawing because you have to have all your hunting gear? I'm curious.


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

slowp said:


> I wonder. Is this part of hunting season? Like you can't carry proper gear for sawing because you have to have all your hunting gear? I'm curious.


 
Might be, but I doubt that this guy is a hunter. All that walking and carrying stuff, you know. :msp_biggrin:


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

*Mtnhermit...*

And one other thing, as long as I'm grumbling anyway. Be sure to take some thumbtacks with you. They'll come in handy to fasten those sheets of paper, with the diagrams on proper cutting technique, to the log. That way you'll have your tutorial right there where you can see it. Three or four thumbtacks shouldn't be too heavy for you to carry. I hope.


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2011)

Which is lighter? Scotch tape or tacks? :msp_biggrin:

Duck tape is way too heavy.


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## 2dogs (Aug 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> 12,000 feet elevation? From my expierence in the Sierras, not much of anything grows at that height. Are the Rockies that much different?


 
Cody and I have backpacked in northern New Mexico at over 12,000' twice. The trees can be of decent size at that elevation, up to 24" DBH IIRC, though most are much smaller and gnarled.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> 12,000 feet elevation? From my expierence in the Sierras, not much of anything grows at that height. Are the Rockies that much different?


Depends. In N Colo timberline is closer to 11K, where I live in central Colo it is 12K, but there is north vs south facing variability. I've been backpacking in the Rio Grande NF with substantial stands of timber at 12,200'. Some of the biggest trees grow just 100' below timberline, benefiting from the extra sun and moisture. Of course the line is nothing more than permafrost above and not below.

The Sierras get substantially more snow which tends to deepen/and prolong the permafrost.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 20, 2011)

slangegger said:


> I just wanted to give you a heads up of the advice to come.


I see what you mean, some quite nasty too. Not experienced that form of absolute "my way or no way" on any forum before. Ten years ago I would have been devastated by some of the post in this thread, today my skin is a bit thicker and I just shake my head and realize it takes all types.



> Stay safe.


Thanks, I intend to. I've already learned a lot.


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## MtnHermit (Aug 20, 2011)

derwoodii said:


> This accident is *very sobering* for this threads learning & thoughts


Thanks, another eye opener.

Most of what I intend to do is straight forward, but one group of tangled small, 4", deadfall will require a lot of study. Potential springing and pivot points I would not have been aware of before this thread. I'm sure I'll study, cut, stop, repeatedly so I get it right.


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## bitzer (Aug 20, 2011)

Honestly Hermit, life is a #####. If you want to do something right you need the gear and the know how to use it. If you can't pack #### in then I suggest you stay home. You have no buisness being out there. What is this trail for anyway? Also you are not bucking for a prefered length so you can cut it anywhere. Small logs away from the highest point of tension. If you really want to cut it in the middle. Buck off the far side first that way you don't have the gut of the bar in the finishing cut (less bar to pinch), then come down from the top on your side, WOT. You're going to have to do some reaming when the kerf starts to close. It will either get tight and you'll have to pull out quick or it will stay loose and you can progress. If it tightens up you'll have to bore, which you may have to repeat depending on how far down you have gotten. Underbuck the last holding wood to finish, slightly offset of the log thats going to fall. Make sure you have cleared your entire work area first so if the log does swing at you you _might_ have a chance to get out of the way. Stand up hill when releasing. This way you don't have to pack in those heavy wedges. It sounds like you have a lot to learn before doing this and you need to come with an open mind. Lighten up Francis, and you might learn something.


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## slangegger (Aug 20, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> I see what you mean, some quite nasty too.


 
Its not nasty. These guys are veterans of the woods, "the last of a dying breed" if you will. They have seen a lot of people get busted up/killed/maimed/loss of limb etc. They just dont want to see it happen to you, and have a casualty weigh heavy on their conscience because they didnt get thru to you how dangerous it is. They are pragmatic with thier wording because they want to convey the severity of the consequences as bluntly as possible. 

A few guys in this forum have more time on the saw, and in the brush than the rest of the members combined. They know thier stuff. Heed the warnings. When you dont, they get agitated, and as you can tell by the replies, they become more blunt. Trust me, it will get to the point to where the majority will say say, "Go fly a kite, and do what ever you want." 

Best of luck.


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## 2dogs (Aug 20, 2011)

bitzer said:


> Lighten up Francis, and you might learn something.


 
That's the fact Jack!


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

bitzer said:


> Lighten up Francis, and you might learn something.


 
Or, then again, maybe _not._ Some people are unteachable.


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

slangegger said:


> Its not nasty. These guys are veterans of the woods, "the last of a dying breed" if you will. They have seen a lot of people get busted up/killed/maimed/loss of limb etc. They just dont want to see it happen to you, and have a casualty weigh heavy on their conscience because they didnt get thru to you how dangerous it is. They are pragmatic with thier wording because they want to convey the severity of the consequences as bluntly as possible.
> 
> A few guys in this forum have more time on the saw, and in the brush than the rest of the members combined. They know thier stuff. Heed the warnings. When you dont, they get agitated, and as you can tell by the replies, they become more blunt. Trust me, it will get to the point to where the majority will say say, "Go fly a kite, and do what ever you want."
> 
> Best of luck.


 
Well said. When advice is asked for, and then argued with, and then ignored...no more advice is given. I'm done with it.


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## madhatte (Aug 20, 2011)

slangegger said:


> A few guys in this forum have more time on the saw, and in the brush than the rest of the members combined. They know thier stuff. Heed the warnings. When you dont, they get agitated, and as you can tell by the replies, they become more blunt.



The degree, breadth, and quality of experience collected on this board is unrivaled anywhere in the world. We have folks practicing forest trades from all over the globe weighing in with their hard-won knowledge. To disregard advice found here is to disregard the best advice to be found anywhere. The willingness this board's members show in helping each other, from the greenest to the mossiest-backed, is unheard-of. To all who come here asking questions, esp. the OP, I suggest that you listen to the answers. They are not lip-flapping braggardry (we have threads for that, too, of course).

TL; DR? Short version: if yer gonna ask a question, you best be ready for the answer.


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## slowp (Aug 20, 2011)

And, those who work in the woods tend to be blunt. It is not a bad thing. A misunderstanding can get somebody killed or maimed. 

Ooooh, I sound like the Axmen narrator. 

A hooktender said this to his helper as he left him alone for a while. 

"If you have any questions, don't do it." That is excellent advice.


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2011)

A quote from the Master "You want to go home or be buried right here?"


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

Another good quote from an old time side-rod..."I'd rather piss you off than pack you out".

When people come to the Forestry and Logging threads they should consider who they're dealing with. It's kind of like walking into a logger's bar or cafe...or maybe an old time saw shop. The rules are different here. And they're different for a reason.
Being a logger doesn't automatically give us any special right to be rude or insulting and, for the most part, we're not. We live in a direct world, a world of absolutes and consequences. Living and working as we do hones a direct character and our directness is often mistaken for hostility. It's not. Not in every case, anyway. It's just that we have neither the time or inclination to suffer fools.
If someone posts a question there's a wealth of knowledge and experience available here. If you added up all the years of actual logging experience of all of our members who've made a living in the woods I think the total would be well into the hundreds. That's quite a knowledge base to be able to draw from.
When we're asked for our opinion or advice it's given in the spirit of trying to keep people safe and productive. Several of our members take great pains to be helpful, encouraging, and informative.
But when our advice is argued with, ridiculed, or outright ignored we tend to react in a manner as direct as our advice.
Maybe we lack a little in people skills as defined by the majority of society but if we're asked something our reply is honest and based on actual experience. A lot of our experience has been gathered through mistakes...ours and others. Some people didn't survive their mistakes and those are the ones we remember most.
If you're thin-skinned and emotionally delicate maybe the Homeowner threads might be a better place to ask your questions. The information you get won't be as good as you get here and some of it will be be useless and outright dangerous. But they probably won't hurt your feelings, either.
If you want the real deal, ask your questions here.


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## 2dogs (Aug 20, 2011)

My old high school wrestling coach said, "The hardest thing in the world to do is think and wrestle at the same time". I try to remember that and take a step back and rethink "what will happen next".


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## RandyMac (Aug 20, 2011)

It can be tough to picture a chain of events. You do something without thinking it through, before hand, you might be crippled or dead. Experience plays a large part, being willing to listen and learn from those who been there, done that and have the scars to prove it, can save you from getting those same scars.


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## 2dogs (Aug 20, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Another good quote from an old time side-rod..."I'd rather piss you off than pack you out".
> 
> When people come to the Forestry and Logging threads they should consider who they're dealing with. It's kind of like walking into a logger's bar or cafe...or maybe an old time saw shop. The rules are different here. And they're different for a reason.
> Being a logger doesn't automatically give us any special right to be rude or insulting and, for the most part, we're not. We live in a direct world, a world of absolutes and consequences. Living and working as we do hones a direct character and our directness is often mistaken for hostility. It's not. Not in every case, anyway. It's just that we have neither the time or inclination to suffer fools.
> ...


 
This ought to be a sticky. How do you buy one?


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## Gologit (Aug 20, 2011)

2dogs said:


> This ought to be a sticky. How do you buy one?


 
If you make what I wrote into a sticky I think the credit for the thoughts should go to all the best people who make the F and L threads what they are. All I did was write down what most of them would have written if they'd beaten me to it.


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## 056 kid (Aug 21, 2011)

MtnHermit said:


> WOW, as soon as that snapped up my jaw dropped. Ouch!!!
> 
> How do I know?


 
If that root wad leisurely setting upright was scary for you, you better heed the advice & keep your ace at home because wood moves a lot faster than that!


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## Samlock (Aug 21, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Another good quote from an old time side-rod..."I'd rather piss you off than pack you out".
> 
> When people come to the Forestry and Logging threads they should consider who they're dealing with. It's kind of like walking into a logger's bar or cafe...or maybe an old time saw shop. The rules are different here. And they're different for a reason.
> Being a logger doesn't automatically give us any special right to be rude or insulting and, for the most part, we're not. We live in a direct world, a world of absolutes and consequences. Living and working as we do hones a direct character and our directness is often mistaken for hostility. It's not. Not in every case, anyway. It's just that we have neither the time or inclination to suffer fools.
> ...



Bob, it's not just this quote, but you truly are the Voice of Reason. Respect.


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## avason (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm still trying to figure this out. Why is someone going a mile into the woods to cut wood? How are you going to get the wood back? Are you practicing cutting techniques? Did i miss something? Someone please straighten me out.:msp_confused:


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## lfnh (Aug 21, 2011)

Carried over from this thread


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## derwoodii (Aug 21, 2011)

056 kid said:


> If that root wad leisurely setting upright was scary for you, you better heed the advice & keep your ace at home because wood moves a lot faster than that!





Mother earth gravity will accelerate a chunk of wood faster than top fuel dragster over the 1st 30 feet or less than 1 second, try not to be that wrong spot.


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