# What can I put in a tree to fill a small cavity?



## NebClimber (Jun 22, 2004)

Cleint has a small hole in his maple, on the trunk. He wants me to put something in it (like a foam sealant) to close it off from ants, rodents, etc.

First, is this possible (the cavity is only about 4" wide and 12" deep).

Second, what should I use?

He has been putting a foam sealant in it, but the critters are removing it over time.

Steven


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## Tim Gardner (Jun 22, 2004)

Go down to a dive shop and get a bottle of compressed air. Fill cavity up completely and smooth over. Try not to overfill.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 22, 2004)

Timmmmmmmmmmm;

ya beat me to it;
but prolly wasn't going to say it as well anyway.

Tom interjected (i think) a theory on if it must be wet/hold water better full (no aerobic bacteria etc.) rather than wet and oxygen avaivailable too(?)

So i was going to say air or water(?).


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## NebClimber (Jun 22, 2004)

One of my questions was whether there was a viable treatment.

So you guys are telling me there is no treatment to be had? Or, that any treatment would do more harm than good?

Please tell me why so I can explain to my customer.

Thanks,

Steven


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 22, 2004)

In general, we are finding out for some reason; that in 50 years of study; we can't top millions of years of evolution and selective survival of the best; that has given us the largest and heaviest life form ever, a superlative extreme on the scale. That a lot of things we do to trees, seem to be people things, not tree things; we should have more faith in Nature; and make sure the problem isn't being given the fullest of the best kind of attention chosen, before we throw the balances off, rushing in.

Or something like that!
:alien:


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## rumination (Jun 22, 2004)

Steven,

In most cases no treatment is your best bet. Water will not hurt the tree because it has already formed boundaries, and air is good to keep circulation where there isn't water. If your client is concerned about critters living in there perhaps you could block off the cavity with some screen.


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## jamie (Jun 22, 2004)

*leave it,*

this is an article on cavaties in aincient / veteran trees.

its on www.aie.org.uk

Closing cavaties 

hope its ok,

leave the tree, let it compartmentalise itself

jamie


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## NebClimber (Jun 22, 2004)

What about ants that now inhabit the cavity?

Perhaps I should recommend spraying the ants while leaving the hole open?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 22, 2004)

Not sure of all that myself, but here are some thoughts; ya ever hear about the maggots cleaning a wound(not quite the same)?

NC State- Shigo's Corner-Ants 

A lil'off topic, but found this too: Doc Shigo 4 different speciesTree Autopsy ; to show some of this man's sight.


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## NeTree (Jun 22, 2004)

Fiberglass epoxy resin.


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## NebClimber (Jun 22, 2004)

TreeSpyder:

Interest comparison of ants to maggots. Maggots only eat dead flesh. What do ants eat?

Guy, what do you know about this?

Steven


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## NebClimber (Jun 22, 2004)

OK. I've now read the Shigo piece. Ants and termites eat dead wood. Sounds good to me. I guess the trick is to make sure the bugs are ants or termites and not something else.


By the way, I've passed along the info to the homeowner that the cavity will heal on its own, or at least the best method is to allow the cavity to heal itself. He told me that this doesn't seem right to him. I'm supposed to go ahead with the other work he needs done, but he wants another answer to his cavity issue.

So I want to be absolutely certain that I get this right. I plan on printing the Shigo piece about compartmentalization and the piece that explains how ants and termites eat only dead wood. I'll show this literature to the homeowner so he doesn't think I'm just some guy who can't find the proper solution, shrugged his shoulders, and said there was nothing to be done.

Steven


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## NeTree (Jun 22, 2004)

Spidey...

Isn't plant health care in itself defying the natural process?


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## arboromega (Jun 22, 2004)

man you are asking the wrong question nebclimber. you dont cure a headache by cutting off the head. 
are the ants there for some other reason?... your client claims the ants live in the cavity...so what. ants dont eat wood, they eat aphid honeydew and maples get aphids. maybe the tree has aphids. treat for aphids if so. if not just put out some ant bait that can be bought at any hardware store. 
good arboriculture starts with you, and so does bad arboriculture...the choice is yours. you obvioiusly opt for good since you posted for opinions here. dont "patch" the cavity.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Spidey...
> 
> Isn't plant health care in itself defying the natural process? *



Unless you are in some kind of harmony angle with the process; it is seeming more so all the time. Kinda a line of thought new to me too as it has evolved from reading here and TB.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 22, 2004)

Spider thanks for the nc state link; I had to go to AS to see what my neighbors are saying and doing! 

Steven, scrape out all the rot you can, without injuring soundwood. You'll be removing the ants at he same time, which is not a bad (or good) idea. Use expandable foam and press some mesh/screen on the outside before it sets, to deter chewers. 

Rocky, I'm glad to see you're honoring ISA and respecting the authority of their pubs. I tried to search the archives of the Journal of Arboriculture re cavity-filling but forgot my username :blush: The Shigo quote in the NCSU link "The cavity should be left open or filled with foam.", would suffice for me if I was looking for authoritative backup on foam use.

I do know that expandable foam can lessen cracking by minimizing twisting. I seldom use it, but like the other AS, Al Shigo, I doubt it traps enough moisture to be a problem.


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## arboromega (Jun 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arboromega _
> ants dont eat wood
> 
> 
> basis for my statement, more infor on the ants relation to cavities...www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/iiin/acarpintr.html


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## arboromega (Jun 22, 2004)

a little more info..
www.hoerrnursery.com/GardenInfo/IDCarpenterAnts.cfm


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 22, 2004)

Whenever cleaning or cutting to collar or callous i remember how Neo-Sporin came along and changed things.

Everything until then was more or less fry and dry. If you use Hydrogen Peroxide, etc. to clean a wound, you run the risk of drying out/killing the microscopic cells on the rim of the cut, that have the best chance of healing quickly, cleanly. The Neo-Sporin babys these cells, keeps them moist and provides antibiotic to curb other things that might thrive in environment, while allowing the healing.

So stay away from callous and collar, as not to wound the parallell process of the best healing cells microscopically leading the pack to heal best, but also in most harmable position.

Or something like that.
:alien:


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arboromega _
> *a little more info..
> www.hoerrnursery.com/GardenInfo/IDCarpenterAnts.cfm *


arboromega this is self-contradictory crap.

"they enhance the decay of wood and only qualify as a pest when they invade buildings. 
Sometimes they cut into the softer parts of green wood ..."

Carpenter ants enhance decay and cut into green wood. That qualifies as a pest in my book, so I invite them to leave most trees I see them in.

If we counted on Hoerr Nursery for info, we'd all be chasing our tails. Please cite more reliable authorities, or at least those that don't say 2 things at once. :alien:


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## John Stewart (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey
Wrap the trunk in the area of the cavity with a roll of poly plastic.
Then take a can of foam insulation and stick the hose thru the plastic and into the cavity.
After you fill it the plastic holds it in till it sets
Let it sit for a couple days and then go back and remove the poly
It sould be pretty smooth and uniform but trim off any excess that oozed out of the cavity
Then take some auto body filler and cover the foam
This will set and prevent squirrels and rodents from chewing out the foam
This works great !
John


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## Dadatwins (Jun 22, 2004)

I have used the spray foam to fill a few cavities on a clients tree. Dry out any standing water that you can and fill the hole. When the foam dries take a hack saw and shave it smooth. Customer was happy with repair. Foam does not add any structure to tree but will help keep critters out.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> * Foam does not add any structure to tree *


I have no way of proving it, but since hollow trees can split by twisting, if the hollow is filled with foam it seems they may be less likely to twist and crack.
Just a theory; I think I read Mattheck or someone saying it too.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 23, 2004)

Foam filled pole saws are stronger than the hollow ones.

I wonder if sticking bark to the outside of the foam would work to camouflage the area from pests.


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## Dadatwins (Jun 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *I have no way of proving it, but since hollow trees can split by twisting, if the hollow is filled with foam it seems they may be less likely to twist and crack.
> *



I didn't think about that Guy, I was going on assumption that this case was a small hole to fill. I remember reading about old trunk cavities being filled with concrete that had trunk failure somewhere else because the cement did not flex. Wonder if on a large foam repair the same would occur? My experience was filling a 6" round x about 10" deep hole on a 30" dbh maple, only used about a 1/2 can. I wonder if on a large cavity fill that foam might act similiar to concrete and take away the trees natural flex at point of fill and lead to failure elsewhere?


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## jamie (Jun 23, 2004)

*cavaites*

i have always been under the impression that all cavaties and wounds would be left as nature intended. codit would kick in and any dead wood would be isolated from the rest of the trees systems.

as for drying out the cavaty i was again under the impression that it will oneday get wet again and the damp / dry cycle was good for decay causing organisims?

someone explain why everyone want to fill this hole with foam

jamie


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dadatwins _
> * I wonder if on a large cavity fill that foam might act similiar to concrete and take away the trees natural flex *


Foam is a lot more flexible than concrete, so I don't think so.

Bark on the outside would also camouflage the fill from client's view too.

jamie, I wouldn't advocate filling this cavity, but if the customer was hot on it, and I knew it was unlikely to do harm, I'd just quietly do it. There are only so many educational battles that we can win, best to save the fight for the important ones.


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## glens (Jun 23, 2004)

Foam may add a certain amount of structural integrity to certain items but I have to wonder if foam is foam, or in other words, specifically, does the foam one can buy at the hardware store for insulating purposes have the same composition/characteristics as that chosen by a given manufacturer to provide a degree of crush-proofness to parts of their product?

I have to say I can't see much appreciable structural integrity being added by (generic) foam to a living flexible entity such as a tree.&nbsp; Unless maybe it's an indoor plant with no daily temperature swings or variable winds influencing it...

Glen


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 23, 2004)

i think in the polesaw example, that the strength is in the shape of the fiberglass tape, and it not being altered from round (seeing as you don't know from which direction force will come, to maximize with oval etc. with longer axis in strees position(?)). 

So as long as the tape doesn't deform, strength is maintaned, foam doesn't let shape change? If you had a thin hollow steel rake handle, it would be strong till deformity from perfect round, then crumble. Stuffing steel rake hadle with wooden one or other compression resisting 'sausage' ; strength would be maintaned as long as shape was?

A few carbon fibers can hold many tons; yet break when pulled apart with 2 hands-after being tied in overhand knot . Square, is better than channel, is better than angle iron, is better than flat steel, even if the same flat steel size/piece carries the load, the rest of the shape makes sure the load carrying part doesn't flex in higher and higher levels strength to upgraded shape (flat bar, angle iron, channel, square stock etc.

i don't think the compression resistance of the insualtion foam under tree loads is the same as the compression ressitance of fiberglass foam(?) under polesaw loads.

Or something like that.
:alien: :alien:


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## geofore (Jun 23, 2004)

*foam*

Similar,almost the same. The foam in a can has large air pockets and that used by industry for structural has very small air pockets, both are closed cell and ridged unlike air filters, bedding and carseats, which are open cell and soft. It's a science all it's own, as in polyureathane paint, glue or foam or a cheaper version polyurea. Foam in a can has more oxidizing agent to make it expand more, larger air pockets before it hardens. It's a different mix, nearly the same/ or the same ingredients depends on the use and who made it. Foam in a can doesn't have good structural integrity because it is not filling a confined space and has too much oxidizer, which allows it to expand too much. Fills the holes great, insulates but don't count on it for strength.


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## jamie (Jun 23, 2004)

*ok*

so if we know the customer is wanting it filled would we not be better sitting down with a copy of shigo, mattheck ISA etc paperwork and educate the guy in tree biology. explaining simply how codit works and saying just leave it? ok he may see bugs crawling out of the hole, but any saproxylic organisims are only gonna eat the deadwood...not the live wood. does he want to erradicate all his soil because he knows bettle larvae are pupating just under the surface???? how about removing all his skin because there are many microscopic inverts living on us.....


i just reckon leave the hole. try to explain what will happen, if you leave it and he fills it, ignoring your advice so be it, i feel that pandering to this 'want' is similar to the lopping and topping wants

jamie


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 23, 2004)

*Re: ok*



> _Originally posted by jamie _
> * i feel that pandering to this 'want' is similar to the lopping and topping wants *


The big difference of course isthat satisfying a "want" that does no harm is totally different from doing harm.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 23, 2004)

*Different Roles*

i think it is about us as marriage counselor, informing those that will listen and bending each other slightly to the other.

The background knowledge of how the strategic processes of the tree respond let you evaluate how much the tree has taken, what following elements can be expected, which procedures would be taken which ones could help, could be fairly neutral, or completely negative or contradictory; then stir in your people effect...

Cuz a thing we can help trees do to survive, that they can't catch on fast enough etc.; is how to look good to their stewards. That is why i think an important part is modifying people's Quality Identifiers (Thread) as key first move. Let them see and appreciate differently, and have the knowledge to defend their decision in this strategy to naysayers for years to come, perhaps even passing the word along.

When the security light man comes, he says, take out that branch, you won't be getting full security of light. When the pool builder comes, take everything out we be puttin'in a pool dude! When the grass man comes  ; she says cut that whole side out so your grass, your most important feature, gets plenty of light. Ya gotta mow anyway, and should get some more over here.... So, as the tree man comes.... i guess it is okay/guilt free to be public defender too, and argue the case from the trees point of view with the full zealoulness afforded by law, mebe even a higher law too. What would be the hardest thing on the property to exaclty/reasonably quickly reproduce in case of loss?

Not every plastic surgeon i would imagine likes every surgery, some might even stay i position after years, just to put the brakes on; be the one with reasonable answers. Usually the best thing is to leave everything alone, but they seem never to be out of work; and some of the best prolly guide reasonable decisions with reeducation, reality checks etc.; but don't seem to be running out of work, and prolly turn down some jobs etc.


With everyone wanting a deal ,and to get more back at the same time, mebbe less is the answer!

Or something like that
:alien:


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## Ax-man (Jun 23, 2004)

Sounds like Steve's client is going to be hard headed and old school on this subject of doing nothing is the best policy. He won't feel you did a good job if you don't do something. He may not say any thing to you if you don't do any thing, but you can bet he will say something to his neighbors and friends.

Just go ahead and clean the cavity out the best you can, if you can, if you succeed in getting down to some sound wood, spray or brush some 10% bleach solution for some sanitation, fill it with that foam, put the screen in, and don't forget that designer bark look.

You may not be practicing good arboriculture, but you can walk away knowing you tried, the old guy will be happy and you will have a satisfied customer, that will recommend you. The tree won't suffer any ill effects. Being adament and staunch just on the sake of principles alone is just going to make the situation worse. Like Guy said , save it for the real fight when it really counts.

If your like most of us in this business, you will probaly be driving by this tree in the years to come and you will be able to see for yourself wheather you did the right thing or not, then you will be able to make your own judgement call.

Larry


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## arboromega (Jun 23, 2004)

Guy,
im sorry you didnt read that the same way i read it. the report i believe makes the case that the ants do not hurt the tree and do not eat wood. i read it that the are removing the wood that is naturaly decaying already in the cavity as for a cavity to exist there must already have been decay inside the tree. perhaps this TCI article will be more reputable for us...
scroll down to the last three paragraphs:

http://www.treecareindustry.org/content/pubs/November 2002 TCI - Bird and insect damage to trees.htm


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arboromega _
> * the ants do not hurt the tree and do not eat wood. *


"the ants cut slits through which to exit. When the slits are no longer used, they become “windows” that are sealed with a clear substance."
OK, the ants cut slits but don't eat the wood, what's the difference?  They also excavate living wood to enlarge their burrows; I've seen that. Cutting wood is bad for the tree. I agree with most of the rest of the article (and I'll be looking for those "windows", that's a new one to me) but the bottom line, 

"Digging out the decay also contributes to tree damage and rot and is not advisable." only refers to careless, boundary-breaking digging. This kind of sentence is worse than worthless, imo--how can a therapeutic practice be so broadly and casually condemned?

Either it should be backed up with detail or not said at all.

Thanks for the link; I think we agree on most everything.


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## arboromega (Jun 24, 2004)

agreed.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 24, 2004)

What is the advantage of removing decayed wood from inside a cavity?


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## Stumper (Jun 24, 2004)

It allows the dentist to refill with metal.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *What is the advantage of removing decayed wood from inside a cavity? *


1. Removes habitat for woodboring insects such as carpenerworms.

2. Makes less favorable conditions for fungal and other decay organisms.

3. Allows a noninvasive assessment of cavity size and strength loss to be made.

4. Makes oodles of easy money for unscrupulous snake oil salesmen.

Three of the above answers are correct. You can pick the wrong one, according to your prejudices, beliefs and ability to reason.

The following 3 paragraphs, from an upcoming article in TCI, also might answer your question, Mike.

Many insects that are harmless to the living tree—ants, termites, centipedes, sowbugs, for instance—can be found under the dead bark, but there is no reason to go after them. However carpenterworms, Prionoxystus sp., are also active in these infection sites. As Johnson and Lyons report in Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, “Over a period of time the activities of the carpenterworm larvae may prove disastrous to the host tree…” The need to expose and treat this pest calls for the removal of dead bark. Bacterial activity and slime flux on older oaks can and does kill cambium, expanding the diseased area every year. So there is also a clear need for noninvasive methods to preserve the tree.

The first job is to find out which portions of the bark are dead. The first cues are visual; lesions bleeding with blackened sap at the margins of the diseased area. These lesions appear very similar to those caused by infections of fungi such as Phytophthora sp. Auditory cues are gained by tapping with a rubber or plastic mallet outside these lesions. A solid sound indicates living bark over solid wood. Tapping inside the lesions will yield a hollow sound, indicating dead bark. A stethoscope can be used to better hear the sound, but is not often necessary to detect dead bark. The next step is probing these areas with a blunt instrument such as a trowel or screwdriver. Remove all discolored bark down to the wood. In some cases this means removing a lot of bark. If the infection encompasses more than half of the trunk and decay is advancing inward, it is doubtful the tree will remain safe for very long. It is probably best to treat these unfortunate trees with a chain saw at ground level. 

Cut around the infected trunk or branch until you come close to healthy cambium. Take care not to cut into healthy bark or wood. Excavation of wounds is still viewed with skepticism in some circles precisely because of the fear that careless digging will result in more damage. When most of the dead bark has been removed, a sharper tool will trim the edges of infected material. In Helping Plants Survive Armillaria Root Rot (November 2003 issue of Tree Care Industry), the author describes the excavation of tissue infected with the fungus Armillaria. Because bacterial infections seem less virulent, and do not cause wood decay like Armillaria does, a more cautious approach to tissue removal seems to be warranted. The goal is to come as close as possible to healthy tissue without cutting into it. A blunt-tipped knife, such as a linoleum knife, can trim the last scraps of diseased bark without scratching the wood. There is no need to trace the wound into an oval, because sap can flow laterally within the cambium. Careful removal of dead bark may reveal the cambial layer, still light in color and adhered to the wood. The more living cambium that is left, the sooner the tree can close its wounds. Rinsing off the last of the debris with a sharp stream of water from the garden hose or better yet a jet of air from a pneumatic tool will finish the excavation work.


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## Toddppm (Jun 25, 2004)

Was thinking of this today when I was checking a mulching job my guys just finished yesterday I noticed sawdust at the bottom of this tree ring in the new mulch. These guys were cleaning out this cavity in a Maple , it was kind of funny watching them walk to the edge and dump these pieces out the front door


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jun 25, 2004)

why not sell a take down


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jun 25, 2004)

ha..ha.. only jokeing ! GUY cant beleive you recomend foam ? i would agree with jamie 100% ''LEAVE THE TREE ALONE LET IT CODIT'' try again at educating the client after all your the proffesional called into look at the job


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## a_lopa (Jun 26, 2004)

guy can you tell me how cabling,filling hollows or any other''tree care'' is actually a long term fix.if the tree is unsound replace it watch it grow.there are plenty of ''new trees'' to go around.your backward thinking and book reading are a blight to treeworkers.tree care books have gone through changes over last 20 yrs who is to say what is there know is right  the best knowledge is local knowledge of rainfalls,soils, tree species.you shouldnt read books and then preach it.heck you may be wrong .although with your way of thinking thats impossible


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## ROLLACOSTA (Jun 26, 2004)

ah so Shigo recomends filling with foam..i prefer the covering of holes with timber as shown on jamies post www.aie.org.uk much more pleasing to the eye


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 26, 2004)

Each case is individual; why not at least try to preserve what you have until replacement is well underway; then, why immediately stop there? Whether there is a target etc. in way of possible failure makes a lot of differance in the level of acceptable risk. i don't know about a long term fix for anything really gone awry and divebombing off the charts; but i think that cabling has it's merits in strategic posititons.

If the tree in question is part of a set, it's removal can affect wind loads increasing and possibly lessening part of other tree's stabilization (by touching at many times at high leverage position of support far from ground connection), limiting each other's movement; and being used to/dependant on that support and broken up wind. 

Or something like that
:alien:


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *guy can you tell me how cabling,filling hollows or any other''tree care'' is actually a long term fix.
> *lopa, I've been in trees that were cabled decades before and were holding up well. Cleaning hollows can do harm if done wrong, and the possible benefit is much less clear to see than cabling. But done right it seldom does harm, and it's good to see what's inside the tree. I'd foam the hollow only after showing the owner the science behind leaving it alone and gently making them aware their fear of critters is irrational.(Most of them will come around if gently persuaded over time)
> Then fight more serious battles.
> ...


I'll take that chance--how else am I to learn anything? Books contain other people's research and experience--I'd be a fool to ignore that. I look things up and quote the author if I think s/he's right. If that sounds like preaching and doesn't belong on a "Commercial Tree Care forum", then what does? There is a forum for logging here too. If later studies show they're not, then ok, go from there. 
I agree with the ISA here:
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mature_care.asp
"...removal is a last resort."
Most tree owners who pay well long term agree.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 26, 2004)

*If you are one to*

Information written about trees, we all can sort through the hype and the help. Our industry publications strive to offer us the current and latest methods known, even though they may route through here before they go into print.

Dr. Alex has dedicated his life, many of us have, to the advancement of tree health, care and biology. He has universities at his fingertips, Grad student sdoing much of the legwork of his important research and a network (all of us) who practicwe what he preaches.

It is biology, guys. Methods, techniques, products and egos aside, the tree is a biological system and needs to be looked at relative to its condition, weather, and all other environmental factors.

CODIT Compartmentalization Of Decay In Trees. This, biologically, succinctly and acronymically describes the desired state in wound closure in a plant, specifically, a tree. Trees have evolved two major reponses for dealing with damage to themselves. Over the billions of years they've been around, when a limb snaps off, the tree begins producing , at a branch collar or at a lateral branch, _callus tissue_. This is rapidly dividing wood cells that grow inward toward the wound center. The second response to loss of limbs, and this is a really cool trick, if you think about it, is to accelerate growth in other areas of the tree in an attempt to replace what was lost. This is how we treeguys can redirect the growth and stature and shape and balance and for and symmetry of a tree, by knowing the tree's innate biological response to how and where we cut.

Back to CODIT. This is a tree's only defense against the dominant and omnipresent wood-eating microinvader, FUNGUS.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: If you are one to*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * dominant and omnipresent wood-eating microinvader, FUNGUS. *


Man that is a nasty patch. Ganoderma lucidum(?) is so aggressive, it's hard for codit to form. It's popping up on a few storm-damaged trees here; massive efforts to invigorate the tree without invigorating the pest. Prognosis doubtful.

Re pubs, separating the help from the hype, yeah, and I would add the parroted "authoritative" advice that is so far from the scientific source it gets wronger each time it's repeated. lopa had a point about recommendations changing, but if you follow what's written by researchers and said and done by us folks in the field you won't get fooled too badly.

It IS all biology; viewing trees as living systems opens up much potential for working with their growth and defense patterns. Viewing trees as stationary objects often makes removal the recommended option because the viewer can't see all the potential for other management options. Seeing what they can be:Eye: is just as important as seeing what they are.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 26, 2004)

*Meuller speaks with much understanding*

Thanks, Guy. You clearly get it.

If the tree's callus tissue can close over the wound, ahead of some fungus' desire to inhabit itself in the wound, and the callus has completely sealed off the wound site, the site is said to have been compartmentalized. This is a human -made term to describe this biological process that all of us, at our own levels, understands. 

Callus tissue, after a new wound, forms best at a branch collar, or along the line of a lateral branch (in simplified terms). This is why we make our cuts these places, and we set the tree in a race with fungus; how big the wound is, and how good a compartmentalizer that species of tree is will decide if compartmentalization happens before fungal infestation takes over.

So why does CODIT work. In a CODIT scenario, fungus can almost be assumed to have taken hold, to some degree. In understanding the fungus better, it has three needs; wood, water and oxygen. Dead wood, to be specific, as almost all fungi are _saprophytic_, that they eat dead wood, and cause it to decay, rendering it back to soil. That's swell, for a fallen tree, but this is a living tree, so why is a fungus taking up housing in a wound site???

Fresh dead wood, unhabitated by any other organism. Inside the cambial ring, the wood inside a tree is technically dead. The thin cambium and the bark are the barriers to fungal invation. In a limb snapoff or a pruning cut, a fresh site for a passing spore is opened up to the first floating takers.

If the wound site is relatively dry, the better the chance for the fungus to move slow. If the wound site is small, better the chance for wound closure and CODIT to occur.

Why does CODIT work? In the tree, sealing it's wound site off from the world of microscopic airbornes also closes its inner self to insects, moisture penetration, and _oxygen_. If the fungus is in there, it is compartmentalized and choked off of its necessary water and oxygen. The fungal body ceases growth, dies, and the tree lives on with a defect in the wood, but the limb or trunk in an otherwise healthy state. 

If the wound is too big, and the tree never will have a chance to close over, the fungus will win. CODIT 101

A responsibility as an arborist is to gauge, as best he can, whether or not the cut he makes will ever have a chance to close over. If we cut a big limb based on a client's whimsical idea that it shouldn't be there, then what you are doing, in biological reality, is handing that tree down a death sentence by virtue of inflicting on it a progressive, degenerative condition. What ensues is a slow, long, untimely death whereby the tree is cast into a futile battle with mother nature by YOU. Take your responsibilities seriously.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 26, 2004)

Store those biological notes for the moment, and let's move to the thread opener's small cavity. How deep is the cavity. Does the cavity point up? Can it hold water? Can bugs take up housing in there? How old is the wound? Was it caused by the limb dying, a snapoff, or a pruning cut. Does sun shine on it? Top side or under side of the limb? On which side of the trunk. Positive slope, negative slope, or on a vertical surface?

These are valid questions as to how to approach a cavity, always keeping in mind the like biological outcome of your treatment.

Scraping out the gunk should be first. Here's a curved cabinet scraper from a woodworking store that works great.

If the wound is larger, and showing decay, carving with the tip of your chainsaw may be warranted. Technical, precision and sorta dangerous work to smooth the inner surface of the cavity, allowing it to dry more quickly after it gets wet. This is classic tree surgery. It's why we are sometimes called tree doctors, because we understand the biology of the situation, and do our best to give the tree an advantage.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * Scraping out the gunk should be first. Here's a curved cabinet scraper from a woodworking store that works great.*Cool looking tool.
> 
> If the wound is larger, and showing decay, carving with the tip of your chainsaw may be warranted. Technical, precision and sorta dangerous work [/B]


 I use chainsaw tip to clean surface cavities, but won't go too deep with it unless it's all fluffy rot. Dangerous as you say to break boundary. There is a negative side to allowing inner cavity to dry quicker; what if the rot is insulating the cambium on the outer shell?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 27, 2004)

*Fungus and cavities*

I can't speak for insulating abilities of rot, a.k.a. decay, though I don't feel the tree can benefit enough to substantiate letting the rotted wood stay there. If you're looking for insulative value, foam filler would be better than rotting wood. 

If the fungus has gone too far, and it's running up and down the xylem tubules of the trunk or limb, then the trunk or limb is hosed. If the limb has the cavity on the topside, and holds water, most trees will have this limb continue to weaken at that point and eventually fail. We've all seen it. 

If the trunk wound has gone too far, I don't feel it matters what you do, how you patch it or fill it or treat it; if the fungus is in there and has taken hold and is growing, that's nature. The tree is toast. It could be a long, slow decline and death over decades of time. Be a good arborist. Don't be the cause of this by making your trunk cuts too big

The best we can do with an established cavity is to catch it early enough to slow the fungus' inhabiting the wood, long enough for compartmentalization to occur, and water and oxygen to be cut off, and the tree continue on with a defect, rather than a permanent degenerative condition.

Back to the original start of the thread, assuming we DO treat the cavity early enough, it's a small cavity, and should it be filled, and with what? Ask just this question:

Will water be able to get into the cavity? 

That would be my first and primary question. If 'no' then smooth the interior with the chainsaw tip (carving), careful to not disturb the cambium and new callus. Or scrape the cavity out with a tool, using the same care with regard to the cambium and callus, and let the tree carry on.

if 'yes', an effort should be made to correct this water holding ability, either by 1) creating a drainage, or 2) by filling the cavity to prevent water entry.

This places the decision to fill more on keeping the wound / cavity site dry, than offering some futile effort at restoring integrity.

If water can get in, bugs can get in. Bugs and fungus coexist to affect the health of our trees. Keeping bugs and fungus out of the inside of the tree (by ultimately ensuring cavity dryness) would be my primary reasons for choosing to fill a cavity.


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## rumination (Jun 27, 2004)

How do you create drainage without drilling a hole in the tree?


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## Dadatwins (Jun 27, 2004)

I saw some old large multi-stemmed Norway Maple trees in Cape Cod Mass. that had small PVC drain tubes running from trunk where multi-stems caused rainwater to pool. The tubes were actually drilled up into the trunk of the tree and allowed any water that would pool up to drain out. Seemed like a neat system to keep pooling water problem fixed.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 27, 2004)

*Keeping the water out*

Here's one way:


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## Tree Machine (Jun 27, 2004)

Here's a simple way to _prevent_ a cavity from taking hold.

As with this old cut, evidence that the fungus has taken hold clearly shows in the discolored, light, punky-looking wood. Smoothing allows water to evaporate off more quickly than a rough, textured surface, and can gain the tree an advantage in out-racing the fungus.

In this case, the tip of the chainsaw was used to smooth and cove the interior wood, and maybe a little nick at the bottom to assure complete drainage.

I liked this oak and went a step further in helping seal out moisture by coating the site with cheese wax, and melting it in with a propane torch (also being delicate and careful as to not fry the cambium and callus). I don't do this often, at least with wax, anyway, I've done these more as an experiment and check them over the years for progress.

Cheese wax is good, but there are moisture sealant products that are higher tech, easier to apply and lend themselves to a wider variety of uses than cheese wax, which really can't be used for much beyond grafting, myco culture and this technique of sealing out moisture on coved wound sites. Cheese wax is soft, has a low melting point and remains pliable in the cold, cold weather.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: Fungus and cavities*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * I don't feel the tree can benefit enough to substantiate letting the rotted wood stay there. If you're looking for insulative value, foam filler would be better than rotting wood. * If you're not sure, don't remove it.*
> 
> If the fungus it's running up and down the xylem tubules , then the trunk or limb is hosed. If the limb has the cavity on the topside, and holds water, most trees will have this limb continue to weaken at that point and eventually fail. We've all seen it. Keeping bugs and fungus out of the inside of the tree (by ultimately ensuring cavity dryness) would be my primary reasons for choosing to fill a cavity. *


tm I don't think water is so evil that we should be carving through cambium to drain it. nononono. What I've said is: "Cut around the infected trunk or branch until you come close to healthy cambium. Take care not to cut into healthy bark or wood. Excavation of wounds is still viewed with skepticism in some circles precisely because of the fear that careless digging will result in more damage.

Plunging a saw tip into healthy wood and bark to drain a cavity seems extremely destructive. It may well expand the cavity, which will go deeper, and require draining again. I was totally agreeing with you up to this point, but you've got to better substantiate your decisions to invade healthy wood before you're going to get much agreement.


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## jamie (Jun 28, 2004)

*drains eh?*

ive always been taught this and i've heard my boss quote it to people.

drains will allow the wood to become wet and subseqently dry out....what do most organisims require moisture and O2. leave it with a pool and they will use up the O2 and the water will become anaerobic.....life wont persist.

jamie


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## NeTree (Jun 28, 2004)

What about anaerobic bacteria?


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *What about anaerobic bacteria? *


Are they as pathogenic as decay fungi? Is their presence sufficient reason to carve inot live tissue? I don't think so.

That's erik, the Rodney Dangerfield of AS; a specialist in one-liners.


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## glens (Jun 28, 2004)

Wasn't Erik offering anaerobic bacteria as an option to "What can I put in a tree to fill a small cavity?"?

Sinbad


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 28, 2004)

No Glen since bacteria number over a billion per milliliter, I never heard of them used as a filler. Nor applied as a decay preventative. I think he was talking about bacteria still active tho immersed in water and therefore not exposed to air (anaerobic).

But I do need to thank him for a less cryptic post, the one about charging $85./hr for arborists on his crew. That one empowered me to raise my rates, which I'd been long hesitating about. If they're worth that in MA, they're worth that in NC.


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## NeTree (Jun 28, 2004)

We could always fill it with Guy...


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *We could always fill it with Guy...
> *


Note the thread was about a SMALL cavity; I no longer fit into that category. 

And even if I did, I'd still rail against needless removals. Even if you stuff the messenger into a cavity, you can't get rid of the message.  :angel: 

Now, what was that about anaerobic bacteria, Rodney?


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## NeTree (Jun 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *
> 
> But I do need to thank him for a less cryptic post, the one about charging $85./hr for arborists on his crew. That one empowered me to raise my rates, which I'd been long hesitating about. If they're worth that in MA, they're worth that in NC. *




Depends... most jobs I get $125/hr for a 2 man crew w/ truck and chipper. And that's still cheap comparatively! (Northern Tree gets $67 per man per hour, plus an hourly amount for each piece of equipment on site).


The comment about anaerobic bacteria was in reference to jamie's statement about "life won't persist [in an anaerobic environment]."


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2004)

I disagree with TM's idea that pooling water is bad. Wood has plenty of moisture with or with out pooling water, for wood decay fungi to thrive.
Even with almost no moisture, a condition you wont find too often in a living tree, dry rot fungi will thrive.
Our most important cosideration should be preserving the walls of CODIT. This definately excludes cleaning out a cavity with a chainsaw!
I've cut into many compartments filled with decay right up to the wall of defense set up by the tree. On one sdie of the wall, the wood almost completely decayed by fungi, on the other, no decay at all. The wall itself is paper thin. How could you cut up to this wall with a saw or even a scraper and not disturb it?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2004)

Once you break the walls of codit from inside a tree, there will be no new walls set up. Fungus has a free pass.
Foam has some merit because it keeps out pests, like ants or people, that might break through those barriers. I don't think it will do diddly in terms of keeping out moisture or even oxygen. Think about wood, it's built like a bundle of straws. Whats inside the straws? Uh, water and oxygen.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * How could you cut up to this wall with a saw or even a scraper and not disturb it? *


Verrrry carefully. When you get close, it's time to use a careful tool. Better to leave some decay than to break a wall.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2004)

As to the drainage thing, don't do it.
Why do cabling guidlines say not to drill into decay pockets? Because you go through existing CODIT walls. No new walls will be set up and fungus now has no natural barriers to stop it from spreading to the rest of the tree.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *Verrrry carefully. When you get close, it's time to use a careful tool. Better to leave some decay than to break a wall. *



I'll put a pile of sawdust on a piece of damp paper and watch you try to remove it with a chainsaw.

What happens if there is some decay fungus there and the food supply runs out? Does that make the fungus stronger? What if you have a strong CODIT wall and you put a really large amount of fungus on it, will that make it more likely to fail than just having the normal omnipresent amount of fungus?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 29, 2004)

Guy wrote:
"1. Removes habitat for woodboring insects such as carpenerworms.

2. Makes less favorable conditions for fungal and other decay organisms.

3. Allows a noninvasive assessment of cavity size and strength loss to be made."

I've mentioned my feelings on 2, and number 3 I don't argue with too much, but 1 has me scratching my head. 
Do carpenterworms need wood decay for habitat? I understand they like stressed trees, but thought they bore into solid wood.
The same with most of the borers I've worked with, they don't want decayed wood, they like to root around in healthy cambial areas which is what kills the tree. The exception might be ants.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * Do carpenterworms need wood decay for habitat? I understand they like stressed trees, but thought they bore into solid wood. *


They do, but first they have to get there. I've been watching the moths lay eggs on infected sites these last few weeks I've been treating oak ooze disease. they lay their eggs in bark crevices:

"carpenterworms, Prionoxystus sp., are also active in these infection sites. As Johnson and Lyons report in Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs, “Over a period of time the activities of the carpenterworm larvae may prove disastrous to the host tree…” The need to expose and treat this pest calls for the removal of dead bark. Bacterial activity and slime flux on older oaks can and does kill cambium, expanding the diseased area every year. So there is also a clear need for noninvasive methods to preserve the tree.
Carpenterworm larvae were actively feeding under the bark at the two largest white oak infections, 13 and 16 inches wide. Larvae were not found in smaller infections, perhaps due to a sinister symbiosis between these two problems. The adult moth lays its eggs in the same time period that the slime is flowing. They are also known to generally prefer ovipositing in bark crevices, but the larvae can enter infected bark much more easily than healthy bark. They expand the infection as they feed, which attracts more adult moths to lay their eggs there, and around and around the cycle of destruction goes."

Mike I'm all for excavating shallow cavities, but like you I'm leery about digging too much into deep ones.
"What if you have a strong CODIT wall and you put a really large amount of fungus on it, will that make it more likely to fail than just having the normal omnipresent amount of fungus?

I would say yes. If any of those fungi are active enough might they not break the wall? If there's a lot of rot active, it sends out enzymes that can soften and break a wall. How do you know the wall is strong enough?

When I do reduction pruning, I do not whack every branch back. When I excavate cavities, I get real cautious when the wood resists probing. I stop when I hit even decaying wood if it's giving needed structural support. I think we're pretty close on these issues.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 29, 2004)

This is one of the worst cavities I've ever seen, but I think I can take care of it. I just need to make sure I cone and tape it off, to keep the pedistrians outta the way.

Guy, whaddaya think? Should I fill it full of foam, or scrape out the inside first...


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 29, 2004)

I was thinking that was a little too much for me to take on.


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## glens (Jun 29, 2004)

You sure clean up good, Butch.&nbsp; Got any plans for this weekend yet?

Keep rubbing that wood and it'll clean itself out.

Romeo


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> * Guy, whaddaya think? Should I fill it full of foam, or scrape out the inside first... *


OOoooo I'm afraid that scraping may damage sensitive tissues. If you're going to fill it, you might want to sheath your applicator wand with expandable latex to avoid disease transmission.

I'd advise deep root feeding immediately. for invigoration. Then a longterm PHC program, with careful monitoring. Ingestion of a little blue pill can prolong the applicator's vigor and achieve the most satisfactory results.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 29, 2004)

Lemme write all this down...


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## Dadatwins (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *This is one of the worst cavities I've ever seen*



Is this another one of those find the boat things? I stared at that picture for days and never found the stupid boat. I will keep looking for the tree with the cavity and get back with a diagnose when I find it.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 29, 2004)

I'm serious! I was thinking about driving a rod thru the center, after filling the inside with something firm, yet plyable.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 29, 2004)

We seemed to have gotten side-tracked....?


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 29, 2004)




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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I'm serious! I was thinking about driving a rod thru the center, after filling the inside with something firm, yet plyable. *



Still borrowing working gear i see..........


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *We seemed to have gotten side-tracked....? *


 Butt just bare-ly. Before mb's asspirations were known, I remember assking about water being totally evil, and saying "Plunging a saw tip into healthy wood and bark to drain a cavity seems extremely destructive. It may well expand the cavity, which will go deeper, and require draining again. I was totally agreeing with you up to this point, but you've got to better substantiate your decisions to invade healthy wood before you're going to get much agreement."
The ball was in your court when sidetrack happened.
Still waiting to hear about that; ok if there's no good response. I've gotten overzealous in the pursuit of pathogens before too; it's a learning process.
No one bats 1.000; many days I'm happy with a base on balls.


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## Yin (Jun 30, 2004)

*cOnfused*



> Carpenter ants enhance decay and cut into green wood. That qualifies as a pest in my book, so I invite them to leave most trees I see them in.



So carpenter ants are bad for our trees? So I should be concerned about the construction workers climbing up and down my trees ? If so it seems I've got some work to do. I allways thought they only excavate dead wood?


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## Guy Meilleur (Jun 30, 2004)

Yin they are not a serious pest. You have bigger fish to fry; don't worry about any ants.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *
> The ball was in your court when sidetrack happened.
> Still waiting to hear about that; ok if there's no good response. I've gotten overzealous in the pursuit of pathogens before too; it's a learning process.
> *



I'm sorry, I ducked out for a couple days; I've had an inordinate number of big takedowns in the last week, long days, beaten and pummelled, but in a nice, treeguy-like beaten and pummelled.

Thank you for pullin me back in, Guy.

I like the topic of CODIT and what happens in which species, with which sets of conditions, environmental, tree vigor and wound size and state. Each tree being different, each with its own set of unique 'conditions' sets CODIT into motion with sort of an individual-to-the-tree, no two compartmentalizations quite alike. Like the 'no two snowflakes alike' analogy.

I will address your previous questions regarding pathogen overzealousness, but first we must look at ze pictures.

To to attempt to understand CODIT let's _really_ start at the beginning; the beginning of time, or the beginning of trees. This pic was from a tree 170 million years ago, using an earlier version of the Nikon camera. Trees at the beginning of time needed to create defenses for themselves, which is a neat trick, if you thinks about it, since you stay in the same spot your entire existance and move only when the wind blows,_or when there's growth_.

Here in this pic, 170 million years ago in the early days of tree history, a caveman hack arborist did some poor pruning. My great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, Grandfather to the 12th power took this picture to show how CODIT begins, and why this lame pruning job will result in the tree never being able to close over, and complete compartmentalization may never fully occur.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*CODIT in the old days*

Great Gramps surmised that if a limb on a tree dies, the tree knows it, and will set up barrier walls inside of its own self. An ideal CODIT scenario begins with when a limb dies, the tree routes it's water and nutrient flow _around_ the site. 

The successful tree also set in motion callus growth. Callus is undifferentiated plant cells, that transfigure into a cell type, like wood, or cambium. Kinda like our stem cells, sorta. The smart trees evolved to have an area called the branch collar, and callus growth there would be especially vigorous.

The limb dies, water and nutrients are cut off to the basal portion, re-routed around. Time goes on. Callus tissue originating from a ringed zone around the base of the limb, at the limb / trunk, or branch / limb, an area we all know as the branch collar begins it cellular march, slowly, consistently. Softening of the butt-most portion of the limb, just inside the tree's surface, usually happens with the assistance of the primary decomposer, first one on the scene, some specie of fungus. 

The weight of the limb causes the limb to seperate from the tree, causing a small, shallow invagination into the tree's surface. The fungus that initiated the softening is now exposed to air. Rainwater tended to flow around, rather than into, the recess. The new callus ring over time closes in on the zone until it meets itself, closure becomes complete. 

The fungus had it's food zone limited initially by the tree's internal CODIT wall, callus closure becomes complete, shutting off the defect site from the rest of the world. Compartmentalization, as an evolutionary strategy worked. 

Trees that got this figured out early, carried on to become our present-day trees. Trees vs fungus; it's a symbiotic relationship that's existed since the beginning of time, but I'm not sure which came first.

That was an ideal setting. What if the limb or branch does NOT snap off? That back CODIT wall is still going to set up with the re-routing of water and nutrients around it. Callus will still continue to encroach on the stub. This set of hormones and cellular growth and differentiation are programmed into the tree's DNA, and the reaction is set in motion by wounding or death of the branch or limb. Much of the time compartmentalization works. Sometimes it doesn't.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*This is for newbie, and non-biology readers, OK?*

Callus growth, and vigor, vary from tree to tree. Some are better at it than others. This tree seems quite forgiving, even though the pruning cuts were made a tad too far off the ideal branch collar. The 'compartment, for the rest of the life of the tree will have a blunt-ended cylinder of wood inside it for the rest of its days.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

SO, as arborists, we need to work _with_ the billions of years of evolution. Shigo has offered thousands of detailed photos and descriptions to bring the biological phenomenon of CODIT into human words and terms so we can all beter understand it, and as field practitioners, conjoin with the tree to give it the best advantage.

We need to know if CODIT is likely to fully complete its process. If not, we have three choices: Do nothing. Do something. Take the tree down.

Was this tree going to be successful in full compartmentalization?


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 1, 2004)

Great post, TM. Outstanding!


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*It's over for this tree*

Thanks, Butch, and eventually I will offer some actual answers to the original poster's question.

I said, regarding this tree in the next image, "not likely to outrace the fungus". The wound was from a snapoff, which ripped the low limb off the tree, creating a deep recess within the tree. Had the limb just died, the tree would have established an internal codit wall. When a limb is violently ripped out of socket, there is no setting up of an internal CODIT wall. The surface of the new tearoff site often becomes the wall of defense, but the tree is starting the process with an inherent disadvantage. 

The newly formed cavity in this pic up-welled, to catch rain water as it flowed down the trunk. The tree owners did the 'do nothing' approach, and here, years later, I can show you the repercussions of that non-treatment stance. 

Rot is well into the central core of the tree, moving both up, and down the heartwood. The callus has 'rams horned' around to the interior of the tree and the leading edge of callus growth has grown itself into a spiral dead-end. The race between fungus and tree has taken place. In this instance, the fungus won, the tree is hosed, and the arborist indicates a removal.

Could the tree have been saved if there had there been intervention early on? Mebbe. There are products to facilitate this, and corrective pruning. Another of the tree's natural defenses, which is to respond to wounding is to accelerate crown growth in the remaining areas (amped-up and shared co-dominance).

I feel keeping the site from pooling water is our first aid to the tree. Water housing in a cavity is NOT a benign occurance, except in the best of situations. It is an unnatural occurance that favors the advantage of the fungus.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: It's over for this tree*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * Rot is well into the central core of the tree, moving both up, and down the heartwood.
> *How far has it moved? How fast is it moving? When I see cavities like that, it's time for a strength-loss calculation based on % hollow and % sound wood. THe nutshell formula I follow is that a tree that's 2/3 hollow has only lost 1/3 of its strength. What did your measurents show?
> 
> ...


What criteria did you use to declare fungus the winner? That picture shows a lot of sound wood around a cavity. Even if the hollow was extensive, pruning can lessen the strain on the defect and lessen the risk to a level acceptable to the arborist and the owner. 

Most old trees have hollows, and they are not all "hosed".Annual monitoring may be enough to stay on top of a tree like the one in the pic. A lot of careful thought should go into these decisions. ISA's hazard evaluation book has been out for ten years now, showing a system that is easy to follow. $35., cheap.

And you still haven't answered the need to document how water-filled hollows rot so quick that you have to break boundaries to drain them. I have never seen the need to do this. Ball is still in your court.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: Re: It's over for this tree*



> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *What criteria did you use to declare fungus the winner? *



Cavity that held water after every rain, no chance for complete compartmentalization, rot running downward into the core (evident even without a resistograph) fungus running up the core, weakened the next lowest limb which snapped off and fell on the house Minor gutter damage). Spalting at the snapoff site visually evident.

I could have come to bat for the tree, which I will most often do. However, sometimes you have to look at is as polishing the brass on a sinking ship. I could have pruned the tree and it would have lived on in spite of its own self, as trees will most often do, given the chance, but that is in no way corrective to the meat of the problem. 

When a cavity is this big and this deep, and the tree is not particularly valued by the owners, I will indicate a takedown. Yes, there's plenty of sound wood, and it's not likely to fall over. But sometimes I prune and fill and futz with the tree, and it can cost more than taking the tree down. This was one of those cases. These were my criteria. I don't like taking down living trees. I revel in correcting problems that, left unchecked, would develop into bigger problems. That's, in large part, why I find tree care so gratifying.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 1, 2004)

*Draining a cavity*



> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> * And you still haven't answered the need to document how water-filled hollows rot so quick that you have to break boundaries to drain them. I have never seen the need to do this. Ball is still in your court. *



I guess I would ask how you document that water-filled cavities are OK to let go and do nothing about....

I base that on past experience in, if you will, tree necropsy. During any tree takedown, I look at the crosscut section through a compromised area. I'll aim to crosscut through a cavitied area, just so I can see CODIT from the inside. I look at the stuff, I study the patterns. I can see inside what I can't see from the outside and I remember the stuff so I can better 'see' into the next tree without having to cut into it.

Most tree cutters, I imagine, just cut the tree down. I study the thing as I take it apart. Call it compulsive learning, but I regularly take the opportunity to let my eyes scan the crosscut sections, thinking back to the likely inception of the wound site, extrapolating beyond to what it might progress to if the tree were left standing, and the cavity unattended. I look at the interaction of fungus, and insects and moisture and surmise _what could have been done_, early-on, to prevent that which has progressed to the currrent state of decomposition inside the tree.

In most cases, the tree had a limb or stem rip out va natural forces, and no defensive CODIT wall was able to form and stop invaders. To worsen this state, pool some water in the wound site. This will accelerate decomposition every time as it's giving the fungus the advantage by meeting its requirements for life; non-living wood, water, and oxygen.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 2, 2004)

I disagree with almost every one of your conclusions, TM.

You paint a horrible picture with your predictions ablout what a small pocket of decay will do to a tree. In one of your posts you showed this photo and wrote that CODIT will never occour. Wrong. It already has. The stub is walled off. All four walls are in place. What you see is a cosmetic pimple that is in no way a health issue for the tree. In time, the tree will grow around it and observers may not even know it was there. Please don't tell me you removed this tree.

CODIT is initiated by injuries to a tree. It's not just slow death of a limb that triggers it. Most arborist think barriers are stronger when the limb naturally dies and there is more time for these barriers to be set up, but both ways, it's set up.

To me a cavity with pooling water is no more of a problem than one with out, perhaps even less of one because it excludes boring insects. To say the environment inside a cavity is unfavorable to wood decay fungus if you keep pooling water out, shows a lack of understanding of fungus. Wood decay fugus don't do their best in totally saturated conditions.

You also showed a picture of some old stub cuts. Then you told us there would be cylinders of dead wood inside the tree forever. SO WHAT! This picture  exemplifies why there's nothing wrong with a small stub cut. It's much better than nicking the collar trying to do a perfect "Shigo cut". Look how perfectly the tree has grown over the cuts.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> * a cavity with pooling water is no more of a problem than one with out, perhaps even less of one because it excludes boring insects. Wood decay fugus don't do their best in totally saturated conditions. *


Yes, not enough O2. the cross-section picture showed good codit on the right, and some advancing fungal enzyme activity on the left. But who knows how fast it's advancing? Who knows whether codit will form there too? That's what root invigoration is all about; you try to make a healthier tree so it will have more resources to form walls with. Then reexamine a year or so later.

TM it's great to dissect, but it's difficult to learn all on your own without plugging into published experience. Read Shigo's Modern Arb, p. 160-1: "Remember, water does not cause rot!...When a cavity is filled with water, decay will not spread." Frankly these absolute statements are probably not 100% true, but after reading them I would be REAL cautious about breaking boundaries to drain water.

The race between fungus and tree involves the tree growing new support to replace the rot. If you aren't observing over time, and measuring, and going to work on the tree's team by mitigating by root work and pruning etc., you can't tell that the tree has lost the race. Until then, the checkered flag and the chainsaw should be stowed away.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 2, 2004)

You're a tough crowd. Thank you.

The previous picture, the cross section of the cavity, this tree has a core of decomposed material all the way to the roots, as well as upward a ways. Water pooled in there regularly. The cavity grew. Is this successful compartmentalization?
==


> You also showed a picture of some old stub cuts. Then you told us there would be cylinders of dead wood inside the tree forever. SO WHAT! This picture exemplifies why there's nothing wrong with a small stub cut. It's much better than nicking the collar trying to do a perfect "Shigo cut". Look how perfectly the tree has grown over the cuts.


==
Mike, I think your undies are bunched on this one. On the crabapple shots with the pimples, no, I did not take down that tree. I did nothing but photograph the protrubances as a testimonial to how a tree can successfully compartmentalize over a man-made wound, even when it was improperly done. I did not re-cut the cuts properly, there was no reason to do that. The tree got a nice pruning, though. My comment about the wound site housing a piece of dead wood for the rest of its days, true. Never stated that it was a bad thing, just that it is what it is. My comment is the same as yours,"so what?" So, nothing. Just an observation, nothing more. I'd like you to retract your 'Painting a horrible picture' as I did nothing of the sort. Your impression or perception was that I painted a horrible picture. Read the post again. The white lines I included simply to show where a proper cut should have been, more for the benefit of newbies.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * this tree has a core of decomposed material all the way to the roots, as well as upward a ways. Water pooled in there regularly. The cavity grew. Is this successful compartmentalization? *


I think so. The walls that prevent lateral movement of decay are the important ones. Vertical movement of decay is a minor issue in terms of strength loss. Water pooling I hope you will eventually agree is a minor or even a non-issue.

Glad to be a tough crowd. This stuff is very important. Valuable trees should be cut down only as a last resort. I agree with you, it's all about biology, but biology is a very complicated subject. Let's learn it together.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 2, 2004)

Have you ever crosscut a trunk and noticed at the very center, that often there are cracks eminating outward for a small distance from the center? It's very common and I'd have to say, normal. However, if a limb is ripped off in a storm, opening a cavity into the tree, and it holds water, if the water finds its way to the central cracks it's going to percolate downward because water has this sort of relationship with gravity. If water can go there, fungus can go there and begin the process of decomposition.

In fact, fungus can go where water can't, that is, uphill, up the tree, and can digest it's way across the plants cell walls, as well as travel up and down the tubules.

True that fungus does not do well in a saturated condition. Two notes here, though; only the bottom of the cavity is saturated, leaving the rest of it just nice and perpetually moist. Point # 2 all higher fungi run through the wood as a mycelial body, a contiguous network of filaments called hyphae that grow and elongate. One section of this body can be submerged, or cut off from oxygen completely, but it is the body of the network that sustains all distant parts of that body.

Water does not cause rot. OK, fair enough. Can't contest that. But water and wood, and any fungal spore that germinates there will cause rot. Unless the tree sets up effective CODIT walls to prevent the progress, fungus will get in there and do it's job as nature intended. If water entering the cavity reaches the cracks at the central core of the tree, so will the fungus. In an instance such as this, advantage fungus. We've all seen hollowed-out tree. This is one of the ways it can start, A slow, progressive degenerative condition that once set into motion is practically impossible to stop. It's now internal to the tree, and we can't 'see' the process, except maybe through a resistograph measurement, or upon necropsy.

Keeping abscesses dry is key in allowing the tree to set up CODIT walls before a fungus begins its enzymatic march into the core of the tree, because that's where it wants to be, cool, dark and moist. Understanding fungus, and its basic needs and growth behaviors is important in our roles as stewards of the tree community.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * If water entering the cavity reaches the cracks at the central core of the tree, so will the fungus. In an instance such as this, advantage fungus.
> *Maybe, maybe not. the fungus can grow, true, but the tree grows too. When it grows with enough vigor, it has the resources needed for codit.
> Even when it's advantage fungus, the match is not over. The tree can hit aces in response, the fungus can double-fault. Even if moist conditions in the bottom of a cavity may increase humidity in the whole cavity, does that increase the fungus' advantage enough to justify extending a cavity by cutting a drain? the book reviewed below refers to drought as being an ally of decay fungi.
> ...


 I agree. I loaned my copy of the book reviewed below, so I can't find out all of what it might say about all this. (The cracks emanating from the core that you refer to are xylem rays, which it is true can be motorways for fungal spread. 
They also can be walled off, making a star-shaped hollow.) Have you read it? 
FUNGAL STRATEGIES OF WOOD DECAY IN TREES 

In 1878, in Germany, as I learned in Forestry 101, the modern science of tree care was born with the publication of Robert Hartig’s text on tree disease. This landmark book described the parasitic mode of life of Armillaria on Scots pine and documented the breakdown of cell walls by Phellinus pini. In 1863, Schacht had described the invasion of cell walls by fungal hyphae. Lacking the tools necessary for a closer analysis, but building on Schacht’s work, Hartig postulated that enzymes secreted by fungal hyphae dissolved lignin and caused secondary cell walls to collapse. As a result, wood would become worthless, and trees would fall down.

In 2000, in Germany, the science of tree care took a great leap forward. Building on the work of Hartig, Shigo and many others, Francis W.F.M.R. Schwarze, Julia Engels and Claus Mattheck published Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees. Now available worldwide, and made readily accessible to English speakers thanks to the superlative translation work of William Linnard, this book shows the reader an entirely new way of looking at decay in trees. By understanding fungus-tree interaction more completely, the tree manager can make decisions about how to handle infected trees with more certainty. 

More certainty is certainly needed today. Many authorities tell tree managers that infections by Armillaria, Ganoderma, Inonotus and other fungi are considered sufficient cause for immediate removal of the tree for fear of failure. However, based on over ten years of research, Schwarze tells us “…the mere occurrence of a fungus fruit body on a tree does not indicate the extent of the decay…Degradation processes, host differences and environmental conditions are too diverse…decays often affect only a small amount of wood in the tree, so that stability and safety are not impaired.”

The book begins with a review of wood anatomy, focusing on the layered structure of the cell wall. Readers of Mattheck’s earlier work will recognize the hedgehog demonstrating the mechanical stresses within the tree. By listening to this “body language” spoken inside the tree, the diagnostician may “hear” the decay spread--and sometimes stop. With magnification up to 1000x, the reader is able to see clearly the action of the fungus in the cells, and the reaction of the trees to the attack. 

Fungal pathology is reviewed next; the brown, white and soft rots. Much advanced information on soft rots, which were first described by Schacht in 1863, is presented. For instance, research by Schwarze et al prove what Sinclair, Lyon and Johnson saw indications of in 1987—that Hypoxylon deustum (a.k.a. Ustulina deusta) causes a soft rot in the sapwood of various trees. This is just one example of a pathogen shifting strategies, from saprophyte to parasite, or from enzyme-secreting to hyphae-growing that the authors note, especially on moisture-stressed trees.

Chapter Three, the heart of the book, is devoted to Fungus-Host Combinations. For a diagnostician of limited understanding, such as the reviewer, the illustrations here tell the tale of fungal pathology better than a thousand words. First, electron micrographs take the eye into intercellular and intracellular space, where the chemical battles take place. Then, three-dimensional anatomic drawings paint a distinct picture of the disease and the defense. Finally photographs, of standing trees and cross-sections, show what we all see in real life when a rotting tree is cut down and cut up.

By pulling the eye and the mind from the inside of the tree to the outside and back again, the book allows the reader to exhaustively examine what takes place when fungus and tree combine. Still, as Schwarze says, “it requires an effort to understand these…’trials of strength’…the only sensible approach to predicting the future expansion of a decay…” Or termination of a decay process; for he and others have observed, “many trees, old and young, in which a decay has been successfully compartmentalized”. The authors note why “stress treatment” fertilization of struggling trees often backfires—decay fungi thrive on excess nitrogen.



Chapter 4 begins with the compartmentalization model, and verifies that theory with microscopic assessment. Since most fungi which endanger trees’ stability work from the inside out, the ways that trees resist that outward spread are reviewed at some length. Xylem rays can be the trees’ Achilles Heels, the pathogens’ paths of least resistance. Similarly, xylem cracks produced by rapid drying after removal of a branch are “motorways” for infection, so the authors suggest that “the use of wound sealants could be quite successful against wound parasites. However there is still a great need for research here.” When large branches must be removed, experimenting with sealants seems preferable to opening the heartwood to decay.

Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program for managing the tree to resist decay and retain and increase its value.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 2, 2004)

*You're one compelling dude*

Guy, thank you a million times over for that intelligent look into a prime reference text. I'm glad to know it exists. I will hunt it down and gladly shell out whatever it costs. Thank you for spending your valuable time to offer us the insight. You're a credit to our profession. You deserve a hug.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 3, 2004)

*Re: You're one compelling dude*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * I will hunt it down and gladly shell out whatever it costs. *


Happy Hunting. After the review came out in 2001 in JoA, the book went out of print  (?!) Last time this topic came up here, AS guys bought up the last 4 copies Amazon had at that time.

It costs over $50, but is packed w 10+ yrs of very focused research.  Some reviewers looked at the cautious advocacy of experimenting with sealants, objected kneejerkedly, and dissed it for that reason alone.  If you have a U connection, you can get it loaned through their interlibrary network. 

Keep the pictures and the comments coming! Very useful. As for the hug, I'll recruit my wife to dispense one.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 3, 2004)

*This tree was definitely hosed*

Guy, you mention my reference to cracks at the center of the tree as xylem rays. Xylem rays eminate from the innermost core of the tree, outward to the phloem, which situates in a zone between the cambium and the bark. Zylem rays give quarter-sawn (vertical grain) lumber that lustrous and desirable sheen, the 'tiger rays' as I've heard it called.

Physiologically, these xylem rays are pathways for nutrients back and forth, to, and from the phloem (seasonal). As you referenced, these horizontal rays can be motorways for fungal spread. 

That much is true, but the physical and chemical defenses of the tree, ideally, will prevent this.

The cracks I mentioned in the heart center of the tree are just that - cracks. Not rays, but physical cracks. It doesn't exist in all trees, just some and I haven't found any real pattern or species consistency, just that some trees have the central vertical cracks, and some don't. Lumber men prize the heartwood for boards, but not the very center. Often there will be cracks right up the middle of the oldest part of the tree, the remnants of when the tree was a sapling. I believe this is a case of the young tree freezing, the water inside the young sapwood expanding, wood cracking, and then the tree moving on with essentially no ill effects

...until a wound allows entry of a fungus into the tree. If the fungus moves successfully to the deep interior of the tree, and reaches these interior vertical cracks, then we have an ideal scenario for the eventual hollowing out of the trunk and early demise of the tree. 

In the photo below, in chunking the hackberry trunk into firewood lengths, I noted the decay from an old, torn-off limb site, which hollowed to a cavity, entered the very center and raced downward through the very, very center and expressed itself as a mushroom flush at the base of the tree almost 3 meters away from the originating wound site, down low where near the earth it is generally cooler and more moist. There was no evidence of any wounding at the base where the Dryad's Saddles were fruiting.

If I were to have a 3-D model of just the decay in this tree it would have looked like a bulbous hollow, atop a pole, sitting on a big vessel - kinda like a long, stretched-out hourglass with a smaller top and a big, fat base.

This is just an example, not necessarily a broad model for decay, but I do see this sort of thing occasionally.

The question then comes up: Would early sealing, or the creating of a drainage have allowed the tree the time advantage to set up CODIT barriers against the invasion of fungus?


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## Ax-man (Jul 3, 2004)

TM

Hackberrys are one those trees that are very poor at compartmentalizing, especially large wounds. I doesn't matter wheather it is a storm inflicted wound or a well placed collar cut intentionally done to the tree. 

I had a storm damaged Hackberry about 15 yrs ago or so that had a co dom ripped from the main stem, big ugly wound, but fresh. I did the same as you were describing in the thread, using saws and hand tools to smooth it out, carved the wound into an elliptical shape, sealed it good. The tree is still standing on the courthouse lawn, which has given me an oppurtunity to observe it over the years. Rams horns have formed on the edges but the main stem has decayed to nothing more than a shell. 

Previous to the Hackberry, I had a larger Sugar Maple, I did the same thing to this tree only it has not decayed one bit, still standing with a heavy lean toward the house and has with stood many windstorms since then.

What are those conks in the picture?? I have always attributed Botryospharia as the main decay fungi in Hackberry. Those don't look quite right from what I usually see. 

I don't know if anyone noticed, I put the five star rating on this thread. Even though we have a difference in opinions and methods here, this has been an excellent discussion and shows how much more there is to learn about trees.

Larry


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 5, 2004)

*Re: This tree was definitely hosed*



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> * Would early sealing, or the creating of a drainage have allowed the tree the time advantage to set up CODIT barriers against the invasion of fungus? *


TM if you are of the strong opinion that reducing moisture will slow rot, then can you not achieve that with an external diversion device--"capping"--, and flush (A great use of pneumatic tool, or shop vac) and foam fill? I'm leery about filling alone to do this, since it wouldn't take much moisture entering or gaps in the fill to create 100% humidity conditions.

I sure would try the above before cutting a drainhole in live tissue.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 5, 2004)

Good idea Guy. How about some absorbant paper towel and then a hair dryer? Then seal it up. Or maybe add some of that stuff they treat outdoor wood with. Anythings gotta be better than plunging a saw in.


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## glens (Jul 5, 2004)

Throw a fresh tampon in every day?


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## Treeman14 (Jul 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *In fact, fungus can go where water can't, that is, uphill, up the tree, *



Time out! If water can't go "uphill, up the tree", then how do trees live? Water can, in fact, go uphill. Let's see, we can call it translocation, transpiration, capillary action, evaporation, (there's another one, something to do with negative pressure differential, or something like that?)

Oh, never mind. I should have stayed out of this one.


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> * But you better not be cutting into live wood for the singular purpose of draining water and calling it 'tree care', or else someone might (rightfully) call you a HACK. *


Skwerl, read again. That's what I've been saying all along, but not in such blunt terms, because I don't pretend to know it all. 
And 14, TM's reference I think was to water moving uphill inside a cavity, not inside xylem. Y'all are welcome to jump in anytime, but it'd help to read things a little more carefully before lobbing the grenades.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 5, 2004)

Ya mean ditto?


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## kowens (Jul 5, 2004)

5 pages of b.s


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## kowens (Jul 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kowens _
> *5 pages of b.s *




opswrong thread


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## kowens (Jul 5, 2004)

leave it alone


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 5, 2004)

Some of those 50-year-old ideas are not all bad. It's amazing how fast we arborists abandon ideas like filling cavities and painting wounds, because it saves time and money for us not to do it. When we go talk to the university professors and other experts at the extension office, they will tell us that wounds should be dressed, we just don't know the best formulation for the dressings and /or fillings. Just because paint is not ideal, doesn't mean that there isn't a better alternative. There just isn't much industry drive to develop something that will be a pain in the butt to use.
Much of the cavity filling done over the years was good for the trees, in my opinion. There were problems, like the lack of flexibility of concrete, and digging into codit walls to install it, but over all the fundamental principle is sound. Keeping out those animals, insects, and other organisms that cause the break-down of codit walls.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 5, 2004)

*Am I right or wrong?*

I tell customers that are worried about ground level cavities all they need to do is 3 or 4 times a year spray some pesticide in there. Then they won't see those dreaded bugs crawling about.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 5, 2004)

Back in the day, it was common for the arborist to fill those ground level cavities with concrete. As they finished they would almost always make a decorative pattern in the concrete. A pattern that looked like a brick wall was common. Once in a while you'd see a little doorway formed into the concrete and a little man or bunny or other clever figure peeking out.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2004)

Hey guys, sorry I posted the pic of plunging a saw tip into a cavity to drain it. I was simply answering Leon's question of 'How do you drain a cavity without drilling a hole in it?

Plunge cutting, aside from being a dangerous practice in an of itself, is not a recommended practice, by me or anyone else. Please don't take it as a recommendation. The cases where I create a slot drain are isolated events, based on individual cavities where I felt doing nothing was worse than plunging a slot for drainage. That is all.

In an ideal CODIT scenario, the reaction wood seals off the wound site from translocated water, and water travel routes around the site, definitely not into or through it. For water to enter into a wound site is biologically contrary to the tree's attempt to compartmentalize. From the inside, the tree is trying to keep water away from the wound site. From the outside, the tree has no defense. Water can either get in and pool, or the water runs off.

If the water runs off of a wound and does not collect in it, the tree has a much better chance of a successful compartmentalization. 

Wood has certain properties, like when it gets wet, it swells, and when it stays wet, it will soften and fungus will invade it. I don't care if we're talking about plywood or a limb or trunk. I've never seen anything good of a wound site holding water. I have, however, seen many instances of hollowed-out trunks and failed compartmentalizations because of it.

So, if a compartmentalization is failing, is it better to attempt an invasive measure, or just let it go, thinking that doing nothing is safer for the tree than doing something? Isn't cutting a limb off considered invasive? Drop-crotch pruning? Thinning, selective limb removal? Call it what you will, its all wounding.

Treating an existing wound by creating a small wound, however, is bad from all the feedback I'm getting from many of you. The tree, if it could talk, might say, "Ouch Jim, that slot drain hurt, but thanks. Now I've got at least a biological chance in to set barrier walls now that mosquitos can't breed inside of me".

A few of you guys seem to express a clear understanding of the compartmentalization process. Mebbe you can enlighten us on how to tell the difference between a CODIT barrier wall of defense, and simply a line of demarcation between wood that is fungally permeated and that which is not. There is a big, big difference.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 6, 2004)

*"If the water runs off of a wound and does not collect in it, the tree has a much better chance of a successful compartmentalization."*

This just isn't true. The tree has walled the area off and doesn't know or care about pooled water.

*"I have, however, seen many instances of hollowed-out trunks and failed compartmentalizations because of it."*

You see a huge cavity and some water and blame the water. Isn't it possible that there are other factors at work? Do you suppose the water came AFTER the cavity? And if that cavity was first, how do you know the water was the problem. 

*"For water to enter into a wound site is biologically contrary to the tree's attempt to compartmentalize. From the inside, the tree is trying to keep water away from the wound site."*

The tree is not trying to keep water away from the wound site. It's rerouting it so it can be used on the other side of the wound site. 

Wood already has a lot of moisture; there is no benefit to keeping water away from moist wood.


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## Stumper (Jul 6, 2004)

Just to interject a clarification into the debate. --Wood that is continuously wet does not decay (at least not in the normal fashion and not quickly). Submerged wood is protected. Dry wood doesn't decay much either. Wood decays at the transition zone from water submersion to air or when subjected to wet/dry cycling.:angel:


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2004)

Then tell us, Mike, why do cavities get bigger? What's the mechanism? Why does it happen? What ARE the 'other' factors?


> You see a huge cavity and some water and blame the water. Isn't it possible that there are other factors at work? Do you suppose the water came AFTER the cavity? And if that cavity was first, how do you know the water was the problem.


Water is not the problem. Fungus is the problem. Water is necessary for the fungus to thrive. If water can not get into a cavity, the wood in there will dry below a point where the fungus will not thrive. Advantage, tree.


> Wood already has a lot of moisture; there is no benefit to keeping water away from moist wood.


This is a pretty bold statement, unless you are to say that the condition is hopeless and there's nothing that can be done. I tend to disagree with this, based on the biological needs of fungus. Fungus can, and does grow submerged. Ask any mycologist about liquid culture or biofermentation. Ever heard of yeast? For those who don't know whether this critter is an animal, vegetable or mineral, it is a FUNGUS, though not much of a problem for a tree, however it does quite well fully submerged.

Fungus is a highly resilient plant, adaptable to just about any condidion earth has to throw at it, except for excessive heat, anoxic conditions and dryness. All it needs is moisture (since it is around 90% moisture itself, and a substrate on which to grow, namely cellulose.

In a cavity, are we really dealing with wood anymore? If it has been decomposed (eaten, digested, bioconverted) then it is not really wood, but rather a breakdown product of wood. Fungus can't live on that anymore, because it already has, and will continue it's movement deeper into the tree for its food source, unless there's insufficient moisture to foster it's growth, or the chemical / physical barriers of the wood's reaction zones are successful in stopping it. 

If a cavity has intact compartmentalization walls, and water is not allowed to get in, mycelial growth slows, and eventually stops. Once the food source in the immediate area is consumed and water is no longer available, guess what? The fungus either stops growing, or dies. Advantage, tree. The callus will eventually close over the wound site and we have a successful CODIT scenario.

If water is repeatedly allowed to enter the cavity, dorment mycelium can be revived, wood cells swell, gravity draws water downward, the non-submerged parts of the cavity re-moisten and instead of successful compartmentalization, we have cavity expansion. Bacteria doesn't do this, viruses don't do this and bugs....? Any guesses on what they're feeding on in that cavity? Fungus. Everything eats fungus. We do, carpenter ants do and so do beetles, pillbugs centipedes and anything else you might find in a tree cavity. Fungus is at the foundation of the food chain. Most of us think of fungus as mushrooms, but those are just the reproductive bodies coming from a mycelial network that has fed from, and incorporated itself in a moist cellulose structure, in our case, a tree.


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## rumination (Jul 6, 2004)

Hmmm...if fungus can't grow in anaerobic conditions then maybe it would be best to keep the cavity full of water all the time. You know, hook the tree up to the sprinkler system, or something. That way at least you wouldn't be breaking any boundaries.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 6, 2004)

Oxygen dissolves in water. That is how fungus can be cultured in a sterile liquid medium. Water is not anoxic, otherwise aquatic life would not survive in it.

I understand you're mildly joking since de-oxygenating the water before filling it and sealing the water in would be a tough trick . Besides the cavity can never be fully submerged. It'll only pool water up to the edge of the cavity opening, but will still allow the wood inside and above the non-submerged part to moisten and swell. That's just an inherent property of wood we have to accept.

Also, the more water that is in there, the more downward hydrostatic pressure there is to possibly force water downward into the tree's trunk. it's a little thing called the law of gravity.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *If a cavity has intact compartmentalization walls, and water is not allowed to get in, mycelial growth slows, and eventually stops. Once the food source in the immediate area is consumed and water is no longer available, guess what? The fungus either stops growing, or dies. *



So if water is taken out of a cavity the decay will stop? You are saying there's not enough moisture in the tree to start with for wood decay fungus to grow?



> _Originally posted by Tree Machine _
> *
> The callus will eventually close over the wound site and we have a successful CODIT scenario.
> 
> *



Once the cavity is closed over the decay stops? No water can get in. Seems simple then, just dry it out, close the hole over and the problem is sloved!

NOT!

Here's my theory why; it's like if you had athletes foot fungus and you dried your foot and put a plastic bag over the foot to keep out water, it wouldn't work because your foot has plenty of water in it, just like a tree has plenty of water in it for wood decay fungus to thrive.

The codit walls are chemical barriers to decay, that's what stops decay from advancing, not lack of water. Once the decay gets past the barrier, it has everything it needs to thrive. 

In a successfull codit, the size of the cavity is determined by where the walls were set up, which is determined by the size of the injury or lost limb, not by how soon an arborist steps in and plunges his saw into the tree, or how quickly the opening is grown over.


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## Tree Machine (Jul 7, 2004)

> So if water is taken out of a cavity the decay will stop? You are saying there's not enough moisture in the tree to start with for wood decay fungus to grow?


 Mike, what I'm stating is pure, basic biology. If fungal mycelium is 90% water and it's growing in a pocket that's 20% moisture (hypothetical moisture #) then WATER will be the rate-limiting growth factor.


> a tree has plenty of water in it for wood decay fungus to thrive.


 In the tree, yes. In the cavity pocket, as you stated, water is re-routed around the wound site. Water is not fed into the cavity from inside, only from outside in the case of rain water being allowed to enter.

I can't comment on your human foot being compared to a tree theory. Biologically, they're incomparable.


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## Stumper (Jul 7, 2004)

TM, I don't think you've seen Mike's feet. 

The subject isn't really cut and dried...and wet and dried and rewet and.......

Haven't most uf us seen cavities that wet and dry but haven't decayed? Haven't we cut trees thah had decay moving up from the base and no injury above that connected to the rot? Haven't we seen dry-rotted wood" Wood that had fungus(which did/does require some moisture) but which is never very wet?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 7, 2004)

Why doesn't spraying pruning paint over a wound stop it from decaying? Heck it doesn't even slow decay down. 
Explain that TM.


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## arboromega (Jul 7, 2004)

my god...this is clearly a point of contention in our business. i went on vacation for almost two weeks and this post is still alive.
this post may live longer than the tree with the cavity in question.
what happened with the tree anyway? did it get filled or not?


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Am I right or wrong?*



> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I tell customers that are worried about ground level cavities all they need to do is 3 or 4 times a year spray some pesticide *


Butch, I'd have to say wrong. Most ants are actually doing good, keeping the cavities cleaner. Removing the rotten stuff is removing insects' habitat, and also is the best way to measure the hollow. This can be useful information if the owner is concerned about stability, not that every hollow tree is unsafe.

I'm just diggin' watching mm and tm go at it, I needed a break...


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 7, 2004)

Cool. Thanks, Guy.


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## NeTree (Jul 7, 2004)

Allow me to divert for second or three...

How about what NOT to put in a cavity, eh?

Cement- bad. Rocks... worse.

36" dbh maple, remaining 15' piece. Shoulda been an easy drop and buck for an hours' work.

Ended up taking FIVE. 3 chains (not counting the re-sharpening), 1 axe, and alot of sweat later, finally got it into the truck.

So, don't ya just HATE it when some a$$hole fills it with something a chainsaw won't cut?


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## Tree Machine (Jul 8, 2004)

> I'm just diggin' watching mm and tm go at it, I needed a break..


 This really isn't about TM vs MM. He and I are having stimulating conversation amongst and with the rest of us. It's not a contest. There's a lot of love being exchanged here.

Personally, I'm not trying to get people to see things my way. I'm sharing my knowledge of fungal biology, the natural interaction of trees and fungus and how we (arborists) can possibly give a tree an advantage in outracing fungus on its quest toward a successful compartmentalization.


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## a_lopa (Jul 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arboromega _
> *my god...this is clearly a point of contention in our business. i went on vacation for almost two weeks and this post is still alive.
> this post may live longer than the tree with the cavity in question.
> what happened with the tree anyway? did it get filled or not? *



yeah what has happened to the tree!i hope its been ''saved''after all this discussion.guy you should go help out with your cavity scraper anyway both TM andMM are only wanting the best possible outcomes,knowledge on subject which is now subjects.guy ill post some pics of bad ants for you,trunk swells etc.


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## Newfie (Jul 8, 2004)

*"Cement- bad. Rocks... worse"* 


I figured Erik would post after our much enjoyable afternoon. Off to the chain grinder this morning.


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## Nathan Wreyford (Jul 12, 2004)

*Poor Oaks*

Me in the tree


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## Nathan Wreyford (Jul 12, 2004)

Way to keep the fungi out


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## Nathan Wreyford (Jul 12, 2004)

Looking up


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## Nathan Wreyford (Jul 12, 2004)

Don't need a ladder


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## Dadatwins (Jul 12, 2004)

Take quite a few cans of foam to fill that thing up, wouldn't it  

Nice pictures, cool tree.


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## MasterBlaster (Jul 12, 2004)

That is truely some awesome support work.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 12, 2004)

Looks like they carved the center out with a chainsaw and painted her up.
You don't happen to have a shot of the crown, do ya?


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## Guy Meilleur (Jul 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *Looks like they carved the center out with a chainsaw and painted her up. *


Right, looks like pics Grigory sent from Moscow once. Chilling--how many boundaries broken? Mike, do you see any harm in using an airspade to excavate?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 12, 2004)

No.
A guy could even make a flexable end to work with to make it easier to get in there. It's a lot of machinery and work to clean out a hole, unless you're there anyway.


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