# climbing without gaffs



## treeclimber165 (Aug 15, 2002)

I just got this email from another member, I won't share his name. We talk about this all the time, but how do you explain from step one? :angel: I seem to be brain-dead today, if you guys can help me explain.

"brian, I had a question for you but I didn't want to post it I feel it's a pretty stupid one and I didn't want to seem ignorant. But how do arborist's climb a tree that's just to be pruned??? You can't wear spurs because they would damage the tree right?? So what's the procedure???"


There are several ways to ascend into the canopy, I'm lazy and use a ladder where possible. You can also set a rope in a crotch and either footlock or air-hump up to the canopy. 
With a throwball and BigShot, it is possible to set your rope in your actual tie-in point, although I usually climb up to set it and work the tree from the top down.


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## treeclimber165 (Aug 15, 2002)

Oh, to clarify:
This person is familiar with tree work but has worked with guys who gaff everything. We aren't talking about a rookie, just someone who has never been exposed to proper climbing techniques.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 15, 2002)

I think the best responce is to tell them to get Jepsons book. it is the gold standard for instruction.

BTW I say set the line with a ball and foot lock up. I got my bigshot for anything over 30 feet.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 15, 2002)

i use Bigshot on high or 'dense' shots. i store the head in an ammo box on top of 2 throw lines; very neat, compact, dry storage.

My biggest problem is hitting shots under 25' (throwing)!!! Anyone else have that problem?

There was a time when i couldn't imagine trimming without gaffs. Had to wean myself off and change over. Started on easier trees, especially ones that i could ladder right up into a nice scaffolding architecture. i also just wore short spikes on other things, and only dug them when needed. Got so i'd apologize to the tree, eventually werked it out. Now my rigging and feel for the line is so much better for raising myself to that level of competition.

Somewheres along the way, i picked up some slick line that is more flat than round; i kinda am liking it; anyone know what it might be? It is not a real skinny line, kinda like the standard throw line i been getting for years, only more flat.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 15, 2002)

If it is pale yellow and real strong it may be Spectra. Slides real nice but birds-nests at a glance. I love it.


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## treeman82 (Aug 15, 2002)

I had been pruning with gaffs for years. However I never really pruned, if that makes any sense? I would do more work with large branches over power lines and stuff like that. Now since you guys have been working on me; I bought an ascender and a Big Shot with throw line. Now I will prune no problem (just gotta work on what to leave and what not to leave). I just shoot my line over the branch I want and get right up there.


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## kf_tree (Aug 15, 2002)

i can't add much here since i'm mostly a spiker shhh. when we do city tree's they are inspected so we cannot spike them. to get in them we used a ladder or would throw a rope over a limb and body thrust up. then belt in and throw your rope higher, repeat and repeat till your at the top. you just have to do things a little different. when gaffing i take off limb sucker on my way out on the limb. when climbing spike less, i use the suckers as foot holds and remove them on my way back in. i've never seen a climber use a throw ball and ascenders, it would be interesting to watch.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 15, 2002)

Throw lines can be used for so many things to lace line.

Some times we running bowline the end of a long target limb, then thread that through to a Upper Suupport Anchor (sometimes another tree, often farther than ya might make an independant climb jsut to set line, so we doit all from the ground, hopefully swithout tying up the climber. Then climber gets into position, ties off his end of the load and cuts. Voila, many cuts and rigs done at once with less climbing far from center, something to keep the ground guys busy as i might tinker with more 'manicuring' issues.

We have set 2/1, 3/1 systems like this (on one or more anchors), high friction wraps on anchor with remote 'biner release, also setting large, high support anchor(s) to be redirected around the tree all morning-to diffrent pivots for independat loads that have the backup support of the high anchor etc. All from the ground, sometimes a throwline well used is like an extra climber!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 15, 2002)

The easiest way, IMO, is to enter the tree where the scaffold branches begin, then climb like you were a kid, except stay tied to the tree. You will need two lanyards, or a lanyard and a split tail climbing system, to get past branches.
Entering the tree by ladder is common. The ground man can set the ladder against the tree while you saddle up, then move it to the next tree, once you tie in and step off. Then after the last tree, he can lean it against the house to blow off the roof, or put it back on the truck.
Using a throwline to set a doubled rope for footlocking, works great when you are far from the truck, on hilly terrain, on leaning trees, trees that don't have lower branches for a long way up or if there is only one tree to climb.
Like the ladder, you footlock just high enough, step into the crown and climb the branches to the top. Some times you can footlock higher, but you might find it faster and easier to just climb the top, rather than spending a bunch of time trying to hit just the right crotch.
Body thrusting work well for trees that have branches starting close to the ground. I'll body thrust on trees that I can hit the second lowest limb, by tossing the end of my climbing line by hand. Then climb to the top.
Tom Dunlap, and other great climbers, like to enter trees using the Single Rope Technique(SRT). Done correctly, this is very efficient, but does require a modest investment in equipment. 
Try them all, and use the best for each tree or job.
Once you are up there, only cut branches when you have a valid reason! 
Do not remove suckers, do not thin, do not top, do not raise crowns, and do not remove inner branches. None of these thing will improve the health of the tree!


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## budroe69moni (Aug 15, 2002)

*treespyder.....*



> my biggest problem is hitting shots under 25' (throwing)


i know i'm a rookie and all but i've got "THE" way to set that line under 25' everytime!!!!!! it's a slight variation of a technique that i've read a 100 times over the last 6 months........could be the next hot item in sherril...........
i'll let you know,
budroe


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 15, 2002)

Spike it,

when gaffing i take off limb sucker on my way out on the limb. when
climbing spike less, i use the suckers as foot holds and remove them on my way
back in. i've never seen a climber use a throw ball and ascenders, it would be
interesting to watch.

How old are you? How long have you been climbing? Who taught you to climb? Your climbing and pruning style went out decades ago. Get out your copy of The Tree Climber's Companion to see the modern way of climbing. If you want to see how modern climbers access trees and prune, let me know where you work, I'll find a company that will allow you to shadow thier crew for a day or so. You'll learn a lot, if you are open to learning.

Removing suckers routinely is not good for the trees. Since trees don't grow any "extra" leaves, they just grow what they need, you are taking away part of the "Food Factory" everytime that you gut out the center of the tree. Trees need to have those small limbs to sustain all of the wood in the tree. Since the starches don't move very far from where they're produced, by stripping the suckers you eliminate the tree's ability to bulk up and stay strong. Skinning suckers can lead to branches that are long and spindly which can lead to a lack of taper which leads to failure. Ed Gilman's "Pruning:Illustrated" is now out in it's second edition. This is one of the most accessible books available to educate yourself on the effects of pruning.

It'll be a happy day for the trees when you change your moniker to "Climb-it" Leave the spikes for removals, you'll become a better climber and the trees will be happpier and healthier.

Tom


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## kf_tree (Aug 16, 2002)

tom , i mostly work in brooklyn, staten island, manhattan, bayone , jersey city, hoboken. i only know of one tree svc in my area that does not spike. if you could find a "good" company in my area i'd be glad to go watch for a day or to. i've been doing tree work for 7 years ,climbing for 5. my old secretary now works for the spike less company. please believe me when i tell you this, there is nothing they could teach me. he even contacted me about doing his removal work but wasn't willing to pay my rate. they only do about 1/3 in a day of what i'm capable of. i was taught by old school hard arsed climbers. yes i am interested in learning, different styles but by me its all about production. maybe when i close on my house and move down south i'll find some different companies, but in my area it's all i've ever seen or known. i should send you some pic's of tree's that the nyc parks dept does, even i call them hacks. ln the parks the tree's are so over pruned and lions tailed you could almost count the leaves. i'm glad you picked up on my statement about suckers, maybe i just learned some thing.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 16, 2002)

This will have to go in a philosophical vector I think. Some time ago I learned that the "thing" that drives you or makes your life complete is elusive. No matter how close you get to this "thing", you still can't get it or have enough of it. If you stop and think, you'll see that for most people, the "thing" is money. If money is what drives you, you'll never have enough to make yourself happy. If you understand that, fine. I guess...

Speaking for myself, the drive in my professional life is to do the best job for the trees that I possibly can. After I came to that realization, I couldn't spike, skin, gut out or prune trees in any way that wasn't the best way to maintain the tree. That meant walking away from jobs because the client would not to what is best for their trees. It took me a while to get my production speed up to the point where I could out climb myself without spikes. Now, there is no question, I'm faster w/o spikes and this does the least harm to the trees.

Even if not spiking were to take a little more time I could not lower my standards. Spiking is what got me onto the track of being a progressive arbo. After reading many articles and listening to speakers at conferences talk about the hacks that spiked, I could not be part of the group. I wanted to be part of the group that did the best work. If their were some kind of hierarchy in the climbing world, it might look like this:

Free climbing
Ladder climbing-w/o rope and saddle for safety
No climbing, just stay on ground and prune whatever is within reach of three pole saw sections which leads to "Giraffe Pruning"
Spiking the whole tree
Spiking to access the tree then transferring to rope and saddle-send spikes to the ground
Rope and saddle exclusively
Rope and saddle exclusively and using a false crotch to eliminate rope burn

I'm sure that there are other slots on the progression. I can't understand why anyone would want to do work that is less than at the minimum standard. How well does that work in the rest of the world? What if you found a nasty smudge of old food on the plate when you go out to eat. The dishwasher figured that it was OK. Ever gotten the first scratch on a new car? Makes the car substandard. Don't even get me going about a breakdown right after a warranty expires.

I'll be contacting a friend in your area to set up a shadow day.

Tom


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## jhr (Aug 16, 2002)

any of you guys go "gaffless" when doing take downs and removals when climbing is necessary?


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## rbtree (Aug 16, 2002)

Sometimes, for the challenge. You may have to leave stubs if none exist, so it rarely makes sense.


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## Tom Dunlap (Aug 16, 2002)

Many times its easier to not use spikes for removals. At least for the crown work. with spikes on I can't use my boots to edge because the spike is in the way. When it gets to large wood and the spar I'll put my spikes on.

What about you?

tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 16, 2002)

i do easier removals without spikes cuz now they tend to get in the way and my strategies that i exercise every day.

On large diameter or topping; i'll generally do removals with spikes.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 16, 2002)

It depends on the tree.
Who wants to wear spikes when working on a honeylocust? On an American Elm removal though, it's much easier with spikes.
Has anyone figured out how to footlock with spikes on?


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## kf_tree (Aug 16, 2002)

tom, if you could hook me up with some one for a day or two that would be great. i'd be willing to travel a few hours the education would probably be worth it. my only problem is i'm leaving for europe on the 26th of aug and returning the 15 of sept. my days are kind of tied up til then. but after mid sept i'll have the time. i'm not as cocky as some of my posts may lead you to believe. i know when to shut up and listen when being taught. (i'm 33 i forgot to answer that question in your other post) thanks for the offer. i can be reached at 718-420-9448 or [email protected] ken froese.


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## The Big Hurt (Aug 16, 2002)

*Spikeaholic*

Before I came to this site I used spikes for 98% of my jobs(only time that i wouldnt is if it were specifically asked by the customer not to be done with spikes which is rare) You guys have opened up my mind a bit about using spikes for pruning. I have gotten myself a ladder(finally) and have made good use of it in the past week. As far as removals go...If I can find a place to drop it I dont climb the tree at all. Man it saves so much time and effort to just drop the puppy from the sky to the ground and then log it. I have the opportunity to do this with many removals. Otherwise I do use the ole gaffs and start topping.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 16, 2002)

Ken, make some time to come out to Milwaukee for the TCI expo. There are workshops and vendors with demo people. Lots of regular guys who love to talk trees. Even if you don't want to do any of the seminars, just come for the tradeshow and bull sessions. 

I'm sure we can find a tree or two to climb too. 

Here is the budget
NYC/LGA to MKE - 228
hotel 3 night - 210
food - 135 
573

Bring the creditcard for gear, usualy get 5-10% off.


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## kf_tree (Aug 16, 2002)

paul, if i could make i'll go. by november i should be in savannah GA. i should be closing on my house in nyc at the end of sept. i'm not to sure what route i'm going to take in GA. we plan on renovating and flipping house's down there for a living. we pulled off 1 nice score of a flip last year.(thats why i sold my business) i was trying to get out of tree work. but now with out the headaches of running a business i enjoy climbing again. i now view work as a sport . plus it keeps me in shape for my mountaineering trips. i plan on going to equador to climb El Altar and Chimborazo in feb. plus my ice climbing trips to NH in jan.(my wife is going to kill me) if i stay in the tree's alot will depend on what kind of $$$ i could make down there. idealy i'd like to do tree work down there 3-4 days a week and work on house's the rest of my time.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 17, 2002)

" Here is the budget
NYC/LGA to MKE - 228
hotel 3 night - 210
food - 135 
573"

John, you forgot registration, not to mention, where is the budget for beer?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 17, 2002)

Ok trade show only is 15 bucks. The entire card is 205. The early workshops are 95 more.

Beer budget, that is a factor only you can figure. Some of our local bretheren here need to budget several days work to cover the companies booze budget on a weekend. 

Me, I've toned down my consunption since I got out of the Corps. Well, unless the beer is free, like at the WAA winter conferance "happy our" which seems to last three.


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