# isa



## david miller (Feb 16, 2013)

i was wondering if anyone just retakes the test every 3 years, or do the 30 ceu recert. on average 6 ceu will cost anywheres from 50 to 150 depending on the course or seminar by the time u get 30 that $300 to $400, i know the point by cue is to keep you up to date. down here most seminar cost nonmember $190 plus travel, for a average of 6 ceu. and there mostly on a work day. with work and family it getting harder to do the book work thingy


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## ronnyb (Feb 16, 2013)

You can earn ceu's by doing the ceu article in the Arborist News. Most of them are worth 1, sometimes 2 ceu's. The magazine comes out 6 times per year which equals a minimum of 18 ceu's over 3 years.


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## ATH (Feb 16, 2013)

In addition to the magazines, there are plenty of online "webinars". For example: Forestry Webinars are free, and while there are not a lot directly related to arboriculture, the will be several over a 3 year period. You don't have to do them live...I'm pretty sure you will still get the CEUs. Have you checked the Vermeer/Sherrill seminars for your area?

Education costs something. That is why people who use their education get paid more. If you are using it, make sure your clients know that so they know what they are paying for.


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## treeman82 (Feb 16, 2013)

If I'm not mistaken the cost of ISA membership usually more than makes up for the cost of the seminars and material. What is membership running now? $120 per year? They usually bang you for at LEAST another $20 per seminar if you're not a member, plus you won't get any of the publications.

When I go to the CTPA meetings I usually walk out the door with at least 10 CEU's. 5.5 for CTDEEP and at least that many for ISA. For the $50 or so that it costs to get in, I definately reap the benefits in credits.


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## lxt (Feb 16, 2013)

Once you have had your Cert for awhile the CEU part gets so repetitive & certain credits can only be used once for the life of your cert.! depending on where you live it can be a PITA, where Im at the pen del chapter meets mostly in lancaster......how nice for those of us in western PA, the seminars can be costly!

I know a few guys who just re-test cause they pretty much have the entire ISA educational library & their thoughts are why should I buy another book "part 2" that just rehashes what book 1 went over, on top of that the Cert really doesnt do that much for them anymore, they`ve been CA`s for so long their customers & plenty at that, know they are good so they reap the rewards of referrals, etc...

The one guy just said hell with it & dropped his cert altogether, half the landscapers are doing tree care now & if not them the grass cutters do it & if either is over their heads they`ll call the drunk tree guy that cant work for anyone but himself but always needs some xtra cash for the bar through out the week.........so cheapest is king & those who specialize are considered to expensive, personally I like my cert & continue with furthering my education even though im in another trade.....but I understand why those who are self employed & certified would question keeping it!!!




LXT................


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## mckeetree (Feb 16, 2013)

lxt said:


> The one guy just said hell with it & dropped his cert altogether, half the landscapers are doing tree care now & if not them the grass cutters do it & if either is over their heads they`ll call the drunk tree guy that cant work for anyone but himself but always needs some xtra cash for the bar through out the week.........so cheapest is king & those who specialize are considered to expensive, personally I like my cert & continue with furthering my education even though im in another trade.....but I understand why those who are self employed & certified would question keeping it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've questioned even fooling with it anymore. When you get a little east of Dallas, Texas where we are located it has come to mean close to nothing to these folks around here. The Mexicans, a mix of legal and illegal ones, work for peanuts around here and it is such an ongoing battle to put up with and compete with them. The kind of customers that call those cats out and then happen to call a company with a certified arborist on staff is not looking for a certified arborist, they are looking for cheap. Cheap, cheap, cheap.


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## Pelorus (Feb 16, 2013)

I'd like to believe the credential is worth something, somehow, someday, which is why I rejoined the union last fall.

Probably shouldn't post this, but on another forum that ends in Buzz, in the Bugs and Crud section, is a thread talking about a decayed Norway Maple. A certified arborist is advocating aerial masonry. Not an ISA certified arb, mind you, just a certified arb. For those here interested in train wrecks and chew toys, I guarantee your sphincters will pucker.


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## mckeetree (Feb 16, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I'd like to believe the credential is worth something, somehow, someday, which is why I rejoined the union last fall.
> 
> Probably shouldn't post this, but on another forum that ends in Buzz, in the Bugs and Crud section, is a thread talking about a decayed Norway Maple. A certified arborist is advocating aerial masonry. Not an ISA certified arb, mind you, just a certified arb. For those here interested in train wrecks and chew toys, I guarantee your sphincters will pucker.



Hey, all the crazy people that left here...buzz is where they are.


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## treeman82 (Feb 16, 2013)

I've actually been giving some thought to dropping my CTPA membership and perhaps also my CT arborist license. After speaking with the DEEP a few weeks ago about various people that were "anonymously" turned in it would appear as though no action has been taken to enforce the laws. I'm kind of thinking that my membership dues may be a waste of money if they aren't doing anything to help solve the biggest problem that we are facing. As far as my license goes, I still have time to think about that. Just feel that if the unlicensed guys are not being prosecuted, then why the heck should I work to keep mine?


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## Pelorus (Feb 16, 2013)

I have never given the prosecution or non-prosecution of unscrupulous operators any
consideration. As far as the "value" of being ISA certified goes, I'm hoping to use it more in advertising, just to differentiate my company from the unwashed masses doing tree work for hire. That was my prime (perhaps only) motivation to start playing this ISA game again. The politics don't interest me one iota.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 16, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I have never given the prosecution or non-prosecution of unscrupulous operators any
> consideration. As far as the "value" of being ISA certified goes, I'm hoping to use it more in advertising, just to differentiate my company from the unwashed masses doing tree work for hire. That was my prime (perhaps only) motivation to start playing this ISA game again. The politics don't interest me one iota.



It is what it is I guess. Criminals like me exist to try to get a life for ourselves and be sucessfull at something other than asking for change at a gas station. I've always been a hands on learner myself; so with that, I've been excited in my quest for knowledge in my new found career. Lots of You-Tube classes and A little knowledge from my Arbor book gos along way to handle customers, maintain a tree, and get to come once or twice a year and climb it again. A good basic understanding in tree biology and compartmentalization is essential to understand why the placement of each cut in the tree is so important. I'd probably like to put it off as the last thing to ever be apart of the legal crowd; though, with my performance I could cut and climb circles around many I'm sure. Who wants to pay for twits?


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## Pelorus (Feb 16, 2013)

Yeah, it is what it is. I'm a reluctant ISA CA. 
Not burnt out and bitter, just jaundiced.


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## mckeetree (Feb 16, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Criminals like me exist to try to get a life for ourselves and be sucessfull at something other than asking for change at a gas station.



And that's a big problem in this industry. Guys come out of nowhere, no experience except for youtube or some #### like that. If you dress up like something interesting you can get more change.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 16, 2013)

Well Its my dream and goal in mind to be able to call my self a CA and I'd have that ISA sticker on the back of my work vehicle. I advertise myself as someone that doesn't leave huge stubs and top cut limbs that come down ripping the bar all the way down the tree trunk. A lot of People here in NC just can't handle the responsibility of getting a tree pruned correctly. Once I'm certified and my angies listing gets more credit I'd be happy to do less tree take downs and more traversing through the canopy with a hand saw and no spikes :biggrin: I've worked with mexicans my whole life working hard for cheap. If it gets rougher than it already is I'll still be in a tree.


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## mckeetree (Feb 16, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Well Its my dream and goal in mind to be able to call my self a CA and I'd have that ISA sticker on the back of my work vehicle. I advertise myself as someone that doesn't leave huge stubs and top cut limbs that come down ripping the bar all the way down the tree trunk. A lot of People here in NC just can't handle the responsibility of getting a tree pruned correctly. Once I'm certified and my angies listing gets more credit I'd be happy to do less tree take downs and more traversing through the canopy with a hand saw and no spikes :biggrin: I've worked with mexicans my whole life working hard for cheap. If it gets rougher than it already is I'll still be in a tree.



You are a little late on the CA deal. The rest of us have already milked that deal for about all it's worth. CA is pretty much yesterday.


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## david miller (Feb 17, 2013)

I had a inspector the other day told me i should display the sticker on my truck i said for what, you the only one around here that knows
what it means. like every place now there no standards just the cheapest, we have a few city that enforce any type of pruning standards, but for a area as big as south fl that nothing. Im on the same line of thought that a CA means nothing down here


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## lxt (Feb 17, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Well Its my dream and goal in mind to be able to call my self a CA and I'd have that ISA sticker on the back of my work vehicle. I advertise myself as someone that doesn't leave huge stubs and top cut limbs that come down ripping the bar all the way down the tree trunk. A lot of People here in NC just can't handle the responsibility of getting a tree pruned correctly. Once I'm certified and my angies listing gets more credit I'd be happy to do less tree take downs and more traversing through the canopy with a hand saw and no spikes :biggrin: I've worked with mexicans my whole life working hard for cheap. If it gets rougher than it already is I'll still be in a tree.



WOW...........! No wonder many are thinking bout chucking their Arb certs out the window, perfect post right here as to why we the many are paying dues, re-cert fees, test fees, ceu fees, seminar fees & so on....... FOR NOTHING!

when a "AA", "FTA" type self admits that he does that which ruins this trade along with working beside mexicans for nothing & will still do it when the bottom falls out, well that speaks volumes right there, kinda glad I took a different path, however its sad cause I still read the books & part time do the work when I can....Legally too!!!! It`s a shame that those who love this field are watching it be destroyed by non-professional types & to boot they brag about it

If all you have to sell yourself on is not leaving stubs, topping & bark peeling trees.............you are truly in a sad pathetic situation!




LXT............


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## mckeetree (Feb 17, 2013)

lxt said:


> when a "AA", "FTA" type self admits that he does that which ruins this trade along with working beside mexicans for nothing & will still do it when the bottom falls out, well that speaks volumes right there
> 
> 
> 
> LXT............




That kinda got you too huh? That was a real head shaker.


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## Raintree (Feb 17, 2013)

Last year I wrote over 2500 estimates for tree work. (Bumper year due to early fall snow storm)

I can count on my fingers the times I was asked if I had a license. Far less than that the times I actually pulled it out to show someone. People don't care, number one issue is price.


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## mckeetree (Feb 17, 2013)

Raintree said:


> Last year I wrote over 2500 estimates for tree work. (Bumper year due to early fall snow storm)
> 
> I can count on my fingers the times I was asked if I had a license. Far less than that the times I actually pulled it out to show someone. People don't care, number one issue is price.



You got it. I read the other day where it was just part of what is referred to as the "new economy" and it is here to stay. People hardly ever ask to see credentials anymore. They used to. They just don't give a flying #### anymore. Price has become the mother freaking king kong mack daddy in this deal. Price, and to some extent how fast you can get to it. It's hard to have much backlog anymore like the old days. People just keep looking while they are waiting and if the brown boys get to them it's all over. The brown boys will eat your backlog quicker than a little left over menudo.


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 17, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> I've actually been giving some thought to dropping my CTPA membership and perhaps also my CT arborist license. After speaking with the DEEP a few weeks ago about various people that were "anonymously" turned in it would appear as though no action has been taken to enforce the laws. I'm kind of thinking that my membership dues may be a waste of money if they aren't doing anything to help solve the biggest problem that we are facing. As far as my license goes, I still have time to think about that. Just feel that if the unlicensed guys are not being prosecuted, then why the heck should I work to keep mine?



Ive been hearing more talk about the ctpa membership being a waste of money as i just became a member idk but hang in there with the arb licence im workin on mine and its a shame to let it go after working hard to get it


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 17, 2013)

lxt said:


> WOW...........! No wonder many are thinking bout chucking their Arb certs out the window, perfect post right here as to why we the many are paying dues, re-cert fees, test fees, ceu fees, seminar fees & so on....... FOR NOTHING!
> 
> when a "AA", "FTA" type self admits that he does that which ruins this trade along with working beside mexicans for nothing & will still do it when the bottom falls out, well that speaks volumes right there, kinda glad I took a different path, however its sad cause I still read the books & part time do the work when I can....Legally too!!!! It`s a shame that those who love this field are watching it be destroyed by non-professional types & to boot they brag about it
> 
> ...



Sad and pathetic is that in your dreams no one would be allowed to touch a tree unless it were about your dollar probably. You presume my level of knowledge and intertane the misconception that I work for cheap. Thanks for adding some fuel in my fire sir. I'm going to love under bidding you anytime I have the chance. I won't be on the ground paying a climber a hundred bucks, I'll be climbing my own jobs taking my own risks while answering my cell phone for my other clients. Maybe You need to come to my jobs and collect the money and then pay me a bit out of it. Lots of tree work here in NC. Maybe I should give you my jobs and work for you instead right . . . but there is not to many middle men with hands in their pockets around me.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 17, 2013)

MackenzieTree said:


> Ive been hearing more talk about the ctpa membership being a waste of money as i just became a member idk but hang in there with the arb licence im workin on mine and its a shame to let it go after working hard to get it



I think its just a cop-out because some of them are making less of the 'old money'. So in their frustration they want to talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 17, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> I think its just a cop-out because some of them are making less of the 'old money'. So in their frustration they want to talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.



agreed on the old money part cant count how many times i here about it, but i plan on stayin a climber with a truck and chipper for a while, scheduling estimates up in a tree during a removal:msp_biggrin:


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## mckeetree (Feb 17, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Sad and pathetic is that in your dreams no one would be allowed to touch a tree unless it were about your dollar probably. You presume my level of knowledge and intertane the misconception that I work for cheap. Thanks for adding some fuel in my fire sir. I'm going to love under bidding you anytime I have the chance. I won't be on the ground paying a climber a hundred bucks, I'll be climbing my own jobs taking my own risks while answering my cell phone for my other clients. Maybe You need to come to my jobs and collect the money and then pay me a bit out of it. Lots of tree work here in NC. Maybe I should give you my jobs and work for you instead right . . . but there is not to many middle men with hands in their pockets around me.



That didn't make much sense.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 17, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> That didn't make much sense.



what part? I'm being senekal is probably the reason.


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## mckeetree (Feb 17, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> what part? I'm being senekal is probably the reason.



intertane...senekal...I'm not real sure what you are being.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 17, 2013)

Oh man you caught me on a couple misspells. "entertain' and 'Cynical / sarcastic.' I road the short school bus when I was a kid. I'm sorry.


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## mikewhite85 (Feb 18, 2013)

ISA cert is a huge help for me. Worth every penny.

In an area where there are so many hacks a CA can really stand out. Price is a big factor and for some customers the only factor- but many people are willing to pay a higher dollar for someone who has the right credentials. You just need to market yourself right. 

It costs a couple hundred bucks a year but helps get me thousands in work. I have even gotten jobs from people finding my link on the directory of the ISA website.


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

mikewhite85 said:


> ISA cert is a huge help for me. Worth every penny.
> 
> In an area where there are so many hacks a CA can really stand out. Price is a big factor and for some customers the only factor- but many people are willing to pay a higher dollar for someone who has the right credentials. You just need to market yourself right.
> 
> It costs a couple hundred bucks a year but helps get me thousands in work. I have even gotten jobs from people finding my link on the directory of the ISA website.



What you just posted describes my location to a tee six years ago. Not today. Not here. Like I posted before, price has become the old mack daddy chingon around here, buddy.


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

I just took a call 10 minutes ago that goes right along with what I'm saying. The guys exact words... "Look, I don't care about your tree license or certified tree trimmer or whatever you call it." Later in the conversation..."I could care less about all your insurance, look, no look, I'm looking for the cheapest price to get this done and I'm getting about five bids." I'll go look at it but you know if we get cheap enough to get we would lose money. Plus, the neighborhood it's in is always worked hard by an outfit that is OWNED and operated by illegal aliens and I would bet you $1,000 that is one of his five bids and the bid will about a third of what we need to do the job. Gee, thanks Mr. President.


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 18, 2013)

That sucks man but you gotta keep on keep onin joe dirt, could some one point me in the right direction of doing the isa cert, I already took CTPA arborist course towards the ct arborist license which I gotta take again cause I miss a few classes due to hurricane sandy but I feel the more knowledge and lic, cert you have the better.thanks


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## Raintree (Feb 18, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> I just took a call 10 minutes ago that goes right along with what I'm saying. The guys exact words... "Look, I don't care about your tree license or certified tree trimmer or whatever you call it." Later in the conversation..."I could care less about all your insurance, look, no look, I'm looking for the cheapest price to get this done and I'm getting about five bids." I'll go look at it but you know if we get cheap enough to get we would lose money. Plus, the neighborhood it's in is always worked hard by an outfit that is OWNED and operated by illegal aliens and I would bet you $1,000 that is one of his five bids and the bid will about a third of what we need to do the job. Gee, thanks Mr. President.



Been there too many times, feels like you're just spinning your wheels wasting time & money.
Cut throat outfits that once you get wind they are bidding you want to just walk away.
Selling your professionalism these days is a joke, 99% it's the bottom line. End of story!


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

Raintree said:


> Been there too many times, feels like you're just spinning your wheels wasting time & money.
> Cut throat outfits that once you get wind they are bidding you want to just walk away.
> Selling your professionalism these days is a joke, 99% it's the bottom line. End of story!



Yep. Selling your professionalism is a joke anymore. It hasn't always been that way though. I was talking to a friend of mine in Houston the other day and we were talking about the way the business has changed just in the last six years or so. He said there were still a few guys around the Houston area selling their professionalism that didn't have any equipment as far as bucket truck, chipper, stump grinder and so on as that goes. Basically a pickup, them and their climbing gear and maybe a pole pruner or something. Their "sell' has always been their "knowledge" and "credentials." He said they may be trying to fake everybody out but those cats are really on hind tit nowadays. Since they don't have equipment their "smarts" is all they have to separate them from the brown crowd and right now that's not working.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 18, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Yep. Selling your professionalism is a joke anymore. It hasn't always been that way though. I was talking to a friend of mine in Houston the other day and we were talking about the way the business has changed just in the last six years or so. He said there were still a few guys around the Houston area selling their professionalism that didn't have any equipment as far as bucket truck, chipper, stump grinder and so on as that goes. Basically a pickup, them and their climbing gear and maybe a pole pruner or something. Their "sell' has always been their "knowledge" and "credentials." He said they may be trying to fake everybody out but those cats are really on hind tit nowadays. Since they don't have equipment their "smarts" is all they have to separate them from the brown crowd and right now that's not working.



Don't get mad at me,, I am not a bully.,,But,
Why don't you get out of that market? We sell our professionalism everyday!
Jeff


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 18, 2013)

I’ve grown up with the brown crowd doing exterior stucco work as a labor and became a plaster. Started doing my own Jobs. Right about when the bottom fell out of the housing market is where things got extremely cut throat. Small groups started doing their own side jobs instead of working for the business owners. A job here, a job there. Sometimes we would travel 350 miles for a job. I waisted my time running around busting my ass off for a dollar drinking like a fish. I’m not a fan of the brown boys. I’ve never let any of them think they could out work me because I’m not a Mexican. My best friend is Hispanic and though those guys are willing to work hard like I do, He’d tell you the cutting edge is on my end in this line of work. It takes a lot of intelligence to properly handle a three dimensional world that abounds in physics and interaction. There is much about maintaining saws, and so much to understand about types of ropes, work load, knots, ect ect ect. Stop crying about the brown crowd because if you are on these forums you’re knowledge level should lead your ability to do a job way more proficiently; thus, competing easily with these people. We live in a third world country now but people still prosper where-ever they are if they are smart.


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Don't get mad at me,, I am not a bully.,,But,
> Why don't you get out of that market? We sell our professionalism everyday!
> Jeff



Well, I'd just have to move to get out of this market and after 27 years in business for myself and 52 years old I'm not moving to start somewhere else. I can only see myself in this deal five maybe six years tops.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 18, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Well, I'd just have to move to get out of this market and after 27 years in business for myself and 52 years old I'm not moving to start somewhere else. I can only see myself in this deal five maybe six years tops.



Can it last 5 or 6 years? We are the same age,, I ain't gonna quit until I am past 70!
Jeff :msp_tongue:


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> I’ve grown up with the brown crowd doing exterior stucco work as a labor and became a plaster. Started doing my own Jobs. Right about when the bottom fell out of the housing market is where things got extremely cut throat. Small groups started doing their own side jobs instead of working for the business owners. A job here, a job there. Sometimes we would travel 350 miles for a job. I waisted my time running around busting my ass off for a dollar drinking like a fish. I’m not a fan of the brown boys. I’ve never let any of them think they could out work me because I’m not a Mexican. My best friend is Hispanic and though those guys are willing to work hard like I do, He’d tell you the cutting edge is on my end in this line of work. It takes a lot of intelligence to properly handle a three dimensional world that abounds in physics and interaction. There is much about maintaining saws, and so much to understand about types of ropes, work load, knots, ect ect ect. Stop crying about the brown crowd because if you are on these forums you’re knowledge level should lead your ability to do a job way more proficiently; thus, competing easily with these people. We live in a third world country now but people still prosper where-ever they are if they are smart.



Well as far as I can see smart you're not. I don't know you but I don't much like you based on the stupid crap you post.


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## mckeetree (Feb 18, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Can it last 5 or 6 years? We are the same age,, I ain't gonna quit until I am past 70!
> Jeff :msp_tongue:



Who knows. There is no way I'll be in the tree business past 58 years of age or so. The good old days of the tree deal at least around here are gone. I sorta got into the rent house deal about 17 years ago and I'm concentrating more on that. I've put a many a day in the tree business though.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 18, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Who knows. There is no way I'll be in the tree business past 58 years of age or so. The good old days of the tree deal at least around here are gone. I sorta got into the rent house deal about 17 years ago and I'm concentrating more on that. I've put a many a day in the tree business though.



Well, I agree, ,,do I hear Merle Haggard? 
Merle Haggard-Are The Good Times Really Over - YouTube

Jeff


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## ForTheArborist (Feb 18, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> I’ve grown up with the brown crowd doing exterior stucco work as a labor and became a plaster. Started doing my own Jobs. Right about when the bottom fell out of the housing market is where things got extremely cut throat. Small groups started doing their own side jobs instead of working for the business owners. A job here, a job there. Sometimes we would travel 350 miles for a job. I waisted my time running around busting my ass off for a dollar drinking like a fish. I’m not a fan of the brown boys. I’ve never let any of them think they could out work me because I’m not a Mexican. My best friend is Hispanic and though those guys are willing to work hard like I do, He’d tell you the cutting edge is on my end in this line of work. It takes a lot of intelligence to properly handle a three dimensional world that abounds in physics and interaction. There is much about maintaining saws, and so much to understand about types of ropes, work load, knots, ect ect ect. Stop crying about the brown crowd because if you are on these forums you’re knowledge level should lead your ability to do a job way more proficiently; thus, competing easily with these people. We live in a third world country now but people still prosper where-ever they are if they are smart.




Yes, exactly. This will linger in the air to some guys, but being from the tech gen is something that helps a lot with starting from the bottom. Some fellas can't understand anything about the stuff that is readily available to minimize time and effort, but these same guys were the best available pros for hire only 10 to 15 years ago. The smart guys from the tech gen are going right around them, and in 10 more years this will be much more the case. 

Some of these tech advantages in the industry are free or for very minimal fee. 

As far as the "brown crowd" goes, who the H minds any American with loads of work skills no matter what, but in regards to the illegals we've ran across customers that warn us not to bring them on their properties. I'm one of the guys that will not be bringing them onto any properties regardless of what anyone is saying. ......they all hate me now


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## treeman82 (Feb 18, 2013)

MackenzieTree said:


> That sucks man but you gotta keep on keep onin joe dirt, could some one point me in the right direction of doing the isa cert, I already took CTPA arborist course towards the ct arborist license which I gotta take again cause I miss a few classes due to hurricane sandy but I feel the more knowledge and lic, cert you have the better.thanks



I'm not going to deny that I am better off with the license, however when it's not doing anything for me other than costing money... I kind of have to wonder is it really worth it? A few years ago I turned down a dead elm tree that was less than 5 feet from 23Kv lines on one side, and had other wires on 2 other sides. A supervisor from CL&P told me that if I had done it and been caught they would have looked to pull my license. Some moron without a license did the job... if he had been caught they couldn't do anything to him. Between the money I pay CTPA for membership, and for the meetings... I'm not saying that it is much, but if they aren't helping the cause at all, then why should I give them the money? Heck, they don't even help with maintaining certification like ISA does... I could go to those meetings, sit on my rear end all day drinking and still have more than enough credits at the end of the year to renew. They certainly don't help with education the way that ISA and TCIA do. The fact that the state requires us to be licensed, but doesn't go after those who are not is not a big boost to morale either. I actually got up and spoke at the winter meeting (along with several others) asking for increased enforcement. One woman from DEEP was talking about pending cases. I spoke with her about a week or two after the meeting about various things... I inquired about a complaint that I had filed... numerous times, they have done absolutely nothing, even though it's a cut and dry violation. So tell me... why should I maintain my membership and licensing?


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## mckeetree (Feb 19, 2013)

ForTheArborist said:


> I'm one of the guys that will not be bringing them onto any properties regardless of what anyone is saying. ......they all hate me now



Hey...good for you FTA.


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## mckeetree (Feb 19, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> I'm not going to deny that I am better off with the license, however when it's not doing anything for me other than costing money... I kind of have to wonder is it really worth it? A few years ago I turned down a dead elm tree that was less than 5 feet from 23Kv lines on one side, and had other wires on 2 other sides. A supervisor from CL&P told me that if I had done it and been caught they would have looked to pull my license. Some moron without a license did the job... if he had been caught they couldn't do anything to him. Between the money I pay CTPA for membership, and for the meetings... I'm not saying that it is much, but if they aren't helping the cause at all, then why should I give them the money? Heck, they don't even help with maintaining certification like ISA does... I could go to those meetings, sit on my rear end all day drinking and still have more than enough credits at the end of the year to renew. They certainly don't help with education the way that ISA and TCIA do. The fact that the state requires us to be licensed, but doesn't go after those who are not is not a big boost to morale either. I actually got up and spoke at the winter meeting (along with several others) asking for increased enforcement. One woman from DEEP was talking about pending cases. I spoke with her about a week or two after the meeting about various things... I inquired about a complaint that I had filed... numerous times, they have done absolutely nothing, even though it's a cut and dry violation. So tell me... why should I maintain my membership and licensing?



I hear you loud and clear. Same thing here in Texas with licensed irrigation contractors and pesticide applicators. The same old jackrags have been turned in again and again and again. There is one Mexican guy calling himself Leo's Enterprises that must have been turned in 100 times for no pesticide applicators license and or no irrigation license over the past FIFTEEN years and the state does nothing.


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## Raintree (Feb 19, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> I'm not going to deny that I am better off with the license, however when it's not doing anything for me other than costing money... I kind of have to wonder is it really worth it? A few years ago I turned down a dead elm tree that was less than 5 feet from 23Kv lines on one side, and had other wires on 2 other sides. A supervisor from CL&P told me that if I had done it and been caught they would have looked to pull my license. Some moron without a license did the job... if he had been caught they couldn't do anything to him. Between the money I pay CTPA for membership, and for the meetings... I'm not saying that it is much, but if they aren't helping the cause at all, then why should I give them the money? Heck, they don't even help with maintaining certification like ISA does... I could go to those meetings, sit on my rear end all day drinking and still have more than enough credits at the end of the year to renew. They certainly don't help with education the way that ISA and TCIA do. The fact that the state requires us to be licensed, but doesn't go after those who are not is not a big boost to morale either. I actually got up and spoke at the winter meeting (along with several others) asking for increased enforcement. One woman from DEEP was talking about pending cases. I spoke with her about a week or two after the meeting about various things... I inquired about a complaint that I had filed... numerous times, they have done absolutely nothing, even though it's a cut and dry violation. So tell me... why should I maintain my membership and licensing?



Also work in Ct with a Ct Arborist Lic and was at the last CTPA meeting, frustration abounds.
The supervisor from CL&P was blowing smoke up your butt, he has no authority to pull your license. As you know one doesn't need a Lic. in CT to do removals. To work close to power lines one needs to be EHAP certified. Never heard of anyone being fined for violating the minimum safe approach distance to wires unless an accident occurs. I have my guys EHAP certified through the ISA the training costs time & money. I tell the homeowner our guys are trained, certified and have the proper equipment to work close to the primaries. Guess who still gets the job?


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## beastmaster (Feb 19, 2013)

There will always be a market for professionalism, admittedly its only a small market. Dealing with the average HO who wants the cheapest deal to get his tree topped is a dead end and will lead to frustration and bankruptcy. 
I would love to start a little tree service and be semi-retired, but the whole tree buisness thing out here is in flex, and the money isn't there. But I do alright working for a few company's that are above the crude. They deal with clients that know what good tree care is and the long term benefits of having a professional work and maintain there trees. It's a small market, but it's there.
Many Company's have had to restructure and change the way they do business to survive. Smaller crews less equipment, shorter work weeks, contract labor. 
Competing against a labor force who has no overhead, cheap labor, and not burdened by conscious or ethics will in the end either break you or bring you down to their level. I know many have no choice, and texas sounds worse then Cali. 
Is there a silver lining? No I doubt it. The construction trades have been taking over, as has trucking, and it's only a matter of time here in the SW we'll be put out of work. 
I don't care about the color of a persons skin, some of the best trimmers I've known have been Mexican. But I do have issue with illegals, and the people who hire them. You know who you are and it's come back to bite you in your ass.


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## stltreedr (Feb 19, 2013)

Looks like this thread went off the rails... If you persnally feel like you get value, perceived or actual, from becoming cerified or licensed; then do it. If not, don't. I know we have some Arborist groups around here and we all get together, even though we compete for the same customers, and have a great time together drinking beer, eating bbq, sharing stories.

As far as taking the test every 3 years, you can get all the ceu's you need to maintain for free

Online Seminars for Municipal Arborists -

You can actually learn something from going to the conferences and meetings, but they aren't free.


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## beastmaster (Feb 19, 2013)

Did kind of get off track there. This was posted a while back NPDN site its pretty interesting and you get CEU's for taking simple tests. Take one college class at the local Jr. College that deals with trees and that's the whole 3years worth of CEU's.


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## david miller (Feb 19, 2013)

from this post Ive learned there is some bitter people, some cut throats and some professional still in this business, whoops for got the wanabes:laugh


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## Pelorus (Feb 19, 2013)

Hey! I'm not bitter, just jaded. 
Those links for CEUs that stltreedr and Wade posted are appreciated, and I've got them bookmarked now.


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## lxt (Feb 19, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Oh man you caught me on a couple misspells. "entertain' and 'Cynical / sarcastic.' I road the short school bus when I was a kid. I'm sorry.



Clearly you`re still on that bus even as an adult!! atleast we wont have to worry bout you taking/passing the CA exam the last I checked you still had to be able to read & spell. BTW: Im plenty busy "old money" "new money" as long as its money & I charge enough to pay my guys on the ground more than a$100 & lunch is on me.............no burritos here! LOL



LXT............


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## Sunrise Guy (Feb 19, 2013)

Perhaps Austin, Texas, is the "odd man out," here. Without my credentials, I could not work half the jobs I do. I could not do tree reports, file permits, get municipal gigs, etc. Obviously, you need to weigh out the importance of certification in your locale. Even if I could get the gigs that now call for the cert, without having one, I'd stay certified. I like learning new things, staying up to date on new research in our profession. I think retesting every three years to save money is laughably goofy. What a boring way to go. Eventually, research from the last ten years will make its way onto the tests and then you'll have to break down and learn things that up to date arborists already know. Ooh-------


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 19, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> I'm not going to deny that I am better off with the license, however when it's not doing anything for me other than costing money... I kind of have to wonder is it really worth it? A few years ago I turned down a dead elm tree that was less than 5 feet from 23Kv lines on one side, and had other wires on 2 other sides. A supervisor from CL&P told me that if I had done it and been caught they would have looked to pull my license. Some moron without a license did the job... if he had been caught they couldn't do anything to him. Between the money I pay CTPA for membership, and for the meetings... I'm not saying that it is much, but if they aren't helping the cause at all, then why should I give them the money? Heck, they don't even help with maintaining certification like ISA does... I could go to those meetings, sit on my rear end all day drinking and still have more than enough credits at the end of the year to renew. They certainly don't help with education the way that ISA and TCIA do. The fact that the state requires us to be licensed, but doesn't go after those who are not is not a big boost to morale either. I actually got up and spoke at the winter meeting (along with several others) asking for increased enforcement. One woman from DEEP was talking about pending cases. I spoke with her about a week or two after the meeting about various things... I inquired about a complaint that I had filed... numerous times, they have done absolutely nothing, even though it's a cut and dry violation. So tell me... why should I maintain my membership and licensing?



Yea i think that clnp is blowing smoke those guys can get alittle ahead of themselves unless you took the power out, you should maintain your ct arborist lic at the very minimum its one thing to offer that other tree companies cannot. Pruning, cabling and commercial is something that without that lic you should not do in ct cause you can get into trouble. When i do get that licence ill know that im better off and more educated about tree work than others and can offer those other services without any worry. So im telling you why at the very least keep the arb lic for the state because i would kill for one and am working hard to get one and i dont care what others are doing only how can i do better.


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## lxt (Feb 20, 2013)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Perhaps Austin, Texas, is the "odd man out," here. Without my credentials, I could not work half the jobs I do. I could not do tree reports, file permits, get municipal gigs, etc. Obviously, you need to weigh out the importance of certification in your locale. Even if I could get the gigs that now call for the cert, without having one, I'd stay certified. I like learning new things, staying up to date on new research in our profession. I think retesting every three years to save money is laughably goofy. What a boring way to go. Eventually, research from the last ten years will make its way onto the tests and then you'll have to break down and learn things that up to date arborists already know. Ooh-------



Honestly im not sure that ISA really has changes much in the past 20yrs other than watering down their requirements to be certified, I found an old ISA catalog from 96 & theres only a few new things really!!!! unless you think the CD stuff is new? there way of getting the material out has changed but what I think is laughably goofy is spending money on a Cert where more than 1/2 the country doesnt even care about it unless you are working for a utility, municipality, etc..

I posted awhile back in regard to a contract I bid for the PA game commision, the winner of that bid was an out of state firm that specialized in Demo work for road construction, not a certified guy amongst them in regard to tree care, 81 acres entailing 9 plots of random acreage to be manually cut, very hilly, strip mine type of land...........cheapest bid WINS it was done for less than 8k

I keep my Cert only because there is alot of material for me to still read & learn, but I can understand why someone with over 20yrs of Certification would question continuing with it..........what are you really gonna teach that person? the one guy I know has just about any book you would want, holds his pest/herb license through the state so what can ISA teach him about fertilization? & to add greater insult to the line clearance side of things they come up with EHAP training which is a complete utter joke...you talk about laughable, a 50 question multiple choice test a 5th grader could pass!

dont get me wrong I like being certified, but more for my own sake...My cert literally has only helped me a hand full of times & the most recent was a month ago when I went to court over a tree issue......I enjoy trees in general & the work but being Certified really doesnt make you better! I know...treeseer & I went round bout this & he basically called me out & dared me to get certified....so I did, wasnt no big deal & no where near as hard as I thought, most of the stuff I had known for years, Now if I had taken the NAA(the real deal) exam prior to ISA? im not so sure I would have passed the first time!



LXT..........


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## treeseer (Feb 20, 2013)

"I keep my Cert only because there is alot of material for me to still read & learn, but I can understand why someone with over 20yrs of Certification would question continuing with it"

I've had mine 20 years and i see no such question--lots of new stuff to learn!

..........what are you really gonna teach that person? the one guy I know has just about any book you would want, holds his pest/herb license through the state so what can ISA teach him about fertilization? 

Maybe not much, maybe a lot--the A300 fert standard has tripled in size; now covers soil management, for instance

& to add greater insult to the line clearance side of things they come up with EHAP training which is a complete utter joke...you talk about laughable, a 50 question multiple choice test a 5th grader could pass!

that's not ISA but TCIA that does EHAP; and there is no NAA or NAA test; again the rant jumped the rails. Glad to hear you got CA and it's working out for you. Indispensable if you ever have to testify.


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## mckeetree (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't deny the advantage of having and maintaining a CA or BCMA credential as far as the knowledge side of it goes. I've been in the green industry 35 years now. The first 9 for somebody else and the last 26 for me and lord knows best practices have changed over those years. When I first got exposed to the business in the late seventies it was an era when some of the genuine "old time" tree guys were still around hands on. Not many but some. Now, I'm talking here about the REAL old school dudes some of which were born in the teens. Talk about bad practices and dangerous practices I've seen it. The main thing I was talking about is that in some locations mainly in the south price has become the only factor for just a big chunk of the population. I mean a big chunk. Dr. Alex Shigo, God rest his soul, would have a hard time selling his knowledge in my neighborhood. But, it hasn't always been that way here. I round tabled with an unlikely small group of arborist put together by happenstance back in Nov. in Tyler, TX. Everybody agrees on what is going on...not everybody agrees on the cause. Some cite (and I can really get on board with that cause) the Mexican invasion. Some say it's the "new economy". Others say it's just a different kind of consumer. I don't know, but I know this, for my neck of the woods it's a reality.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 20, 2013)

lxt said:


> Clearly you`re still on that bus even as an adult!! atleast we wont have to worry bout you taking/passing the CA exam the last I checked you still had to be able to read & spell. BTW: Im plenty busy "old money" "new money" as long as its money & I charge enough to pay my guys on the ground more than a$100 & lunch is on me.............no burritos here! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> LXT............



Haha! you are laughing sir. This is good and healthy for you. I actually love burritos because they are full of carbs and protein. You can pick up some fairly large cans at the Mexican store where Tryon and sugar creek cross in my town for 5/5. Simply open up a can and empty it on a disposable plate with some mixed cheese, put a bag over it, and nuke it for two minutes. Serve yourself with some raw veggies , garlic , and a good cold beer. Quite fulling knowing I have my cheap low ball cash still fully at my disposal for the next time I have to fight over a job with someone like you. You can talk all your drivel. I love it. I sleep in my storage unit, collect food stamps, got a low income deal for the ymca to take showers and work out doing pull-ups ect. I drive a mini van and use a trailer to mulch up-shove all the peaces of branches into my trailer + all the hardwood I simply blow craigs list up with free wood postings for people to come get. Every penny saved is a penny earned for investments. I can sleep well knowing that your days of living high off the hog are numbered sir. 
View attachment 280445


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## mckeetree (Feb 20, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Haha! you are laughing sir. This is good and healthy for you. I actually love burritos because they are full of carbs and protein. You can pick up some fairly large cans at the Mexican store where Tryon and sugar creek cross in my town for 5/5. Simply open up a can and empty it on a disposable plate with some mixed cheese, put a bag over it, and nuke it for two minutes. Serve yourself with some raw veggies , garlic , and a good cold beer. Quite fulling knowing I have my cheap low ball cash still fully at my disposal for the next time I have to fight over a job with someone like you. You can talk all your drivel. I love it. I sleep in my storage unit, collect food stamps, got a low income deal for the ymca to take showers and work out doing pull-ups ect. I drive a mini van and use a trailer to mulch up-shove all the peaces of branches into my trailer + all the hardwood I simply blow craigs list up with free wood postings for people to come get. Every penny saved is a penny earned for investments. I can sleep well knowing that your days of living high off the hog are numbered sir.
> View attachment 280445



Well, hmmm. You more or less branded yourself as jackrag with that little post.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 20, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Well, hmmm. You more or less branded yourself as jackrag with that little post.



yeah yeah, speak for yourself. You pick a beef with a little man like me you don't even know who or what the heck is going to start coming across that border. I'm not looking forward to it. At least I'm the type of guy that looks up to you climber/Arborists I can only envy you high hog people at the moment; however, I have a 5 trees tomorrow, a bunch of rain, then a huge tree take down for 700, then of course no one leaves me alone even in the dead of winter so whats next? how about a little 4 door sedan. Take out the back seats and put a hitch on the back (for my trailer) for a secondary work vehicle. I'll Paint tree service on the side of my sedan . you like that?

Maybe much less a jack rag, more like someone that you should have hired and let run the crew. But oh yeah, ' he doesn't have a high school diploma because he can't sit still in school ' LOL Your qualifications are ass rags


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## mckeetree (Feb 20, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> yeah yeah, speak for yourself. You pick a beef with a little man like me you don't even know who or what the heck is going to start coming across that border. I'm not looking forward to it. At least I'm the type of guy that looks up to you climber/Arborists I can only envy you high hog people at the moment; however, I have a 5 trees tomorrow, a bunch of rain, then a huge tree take down for 700, then of course no one leaves me alone even in the dead of winter so whats next? how about a little 4 door sedan. Take out the back seats and put a hitch on the back (for my trailer) for a secondary work vehicle. I'll Paint tree service on the side of my sedan . you like that?
> 
> Maybe much less a jack rag, more like someone that you should have hired and let run the crew. But oh yeah, ' he doesn't have a high school diploma because he can't sit still in school ' LOL Your qualifications are ass rags



Get off the bottle or go to bed. You aren't going to be fit for anything tomorrow.


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 20, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Get off the bottle or go to bed. You aren't going to be fit for anything tomorrow.



ok old man. show me what your worker does and I'll show you what I do. What do you do anyway? I shouldn't be picking on you. you're probably used to climbing with some old basic buckingham saddle with the good-ol three strand hemp rope tied back on itself with a blakes hitch. :biggrinbounce2:
good night


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## lxt (Feb 21, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> I can sleep well knowing that your days of living high off the hog are numbered sir.
> View attachment 280445



LOL, Im living higher than ever & will continue till the day I retire, Now princess what you need to do is post some pics of your work with you doing the tree thing with all yer illegal buddies, cause I think yer just a troll.....! No professional American would ever post the fodder you do! I think you`re a septic tank cleaner & the methane has speed up the process of stupid in you, as a matter of fact you passed stupid long ago.............Now yer just a plain ####ing ass clown.



LXT...........


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## lxt (Feb 21, 2013)

treeseer said:


> "I keep my Cert only because there is alot of material for me to still read & learn, but I can understand why someone with over 20yrs of Certification would question continuing with it"
> 
> I've had mine 20 years and i see no such question--lots of new stuff to learn!
> 
> ...



Cmon Guy, you know what I mean & honestly you`re an advocate for the ISA cause your hired by them to write articles, the A300 fert standard is a chapter in Penn States core/category testing study guide, even in its new revised form, pest/herb is state regulated atleast in PA so personally I think ISA should just leave that alone.

Ive busted yer balls in the past but with all due respect you are one of the reasons I got my cert, you got me so pizzed that I just had to see what it was all about & am glad I did.............BUT, when the NAA was the authority that test was state side & hard, very hard I doubt there would be 3/4 of the CA`s now if that type of testing was still being administered & that was the test I remembered which is why I kinda frowned on the ISA`s protocol being used for the CA.

And not to continue the derail but if you look at the publish dates on the majority of the books the ISA is selling, they`re old, they`ve been around along time, look at the CA study guide.....remember the gold version? then there was the Black version, now theres a new "high def" version, and each of the CA guides has diminished in volume, now theres no tree ID on the test so why even have a section in the book on it? yeah theres some new stuff & Cd`s & podcasts & what I consider to be more for the technology age, they`ve just taken the old, rehashed it, modernized its delivery & put a higher price tag on it all the while the actual knowledge & skills the person/credential holder has have been lessened so the cert can be obtained by just about anyone!

I like having it & take the code of ethics serious & will eventually get my BCMA to basically seperate myself from the masses who have a CA & IMO dont deserve it...!





LXT.............


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## StrataTree (Feb 21, 2013)

Wow! Who needs reality tv with all this drama! Thought I was on a professional forum... Oops, my bad! As far as certs go... Get 'em or don't. I will, cause I enjoy learning everything I can about my chosen field. And having the paperwork to prove it is a nice bonus. I will agree that most cutting edge info is online and in the field not in a classroom. Sad that the cert process is behind the times. I just took a basic arborist workshop at one of the big training places. I learned a lot about what not to do and how to stay safe but if I want to learn about current climbing techniques and what's happening in the field today, I will call a local SRT guy and buy him a beer while picking his brain. Seems to be the best education for the $! Truly sad to see so many discouraged with their certs... How else is this industry going to get the respect it deserves? The future is unwritten! But we are writing it right now! Maybe the ISA is hiring and maybe some of you older guys can be arbor cops and we can fine the crap out of the hacks, impound their trucks and forever forbid them to be within 50' of a tree! I'm not being sarcastic. This industry NEEDS some oversight! We don't see hack electricians all over the place burning houses down. But guys are dropping trees on houses and other targets all the time. BTW that workshop I took... Some of that gear should be in a museum...the throw line(rope) we used was like 6mm!?!? Ok, now I'm being sarcastic but barely!?!? Sorry for the rant and long post, I'm new! And trying to learn all I can!


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 21, 2013)

StrataTree said:


> Wow! Who needs reality tv with all this drama! Thought I was on a professional forum... Oops, my bad! As far as certs go... Get 'em or don't. I will, cause I enjoy learning everything I can about my chosen field. And having the paperwork to prove it is a nice bonus. I will agree that most cutting edge info is online and in the field not in a classroom. Sad that the cert process is behind the times. I just took a basic arborist workshop at one of the big training places. I learned a lot about what not to do and how to stay safe but if I want to learn about current climbing techniques and what's happening in the field today, I will call a local SRT guy and buy him a beer while picking his brain. Seems to be the best education for the $! Truly sad to see so many discouraged with their certs... How else is this industry going to get the respect it deserves? The future is unwritten! But we are writing it right now! Maybe the ISA is hiring and maybe some of you older guys can be arbor cops and we can fine the crap out of the hacks, impound their trucks and forever forbid them to be within 50' of a tree! I'm not being sarcastic. This industry NEEDS some oversight! We don't see hack electricians all over the place burning houses down. But guys are dropping trees on houses and other targets all the time. BTW that workshop I took... Some of that gear should be in a museum...the throw line(rope) we used was like 6mm!?!? Ok, now I'm being sarcastic but barely!?!? Sorry for the rant and long post, I'm new! And trying to learn all I can!



Welcome to AS,,,,
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Feb 21, 2013)

StrataTree said:


> Truly sad to see so many discouraged with their certs... How else is this industry going to get the respect it deserves? I'm new! And trying to learn all I can!




I applaud your desire to learn, as opposed to many in this industry who masquerade as arborists. 

The ISA is more concerned with generating revenue than keeping the bar high. Joe Public is woefully in the dark anyway, so maybe it doesn't really matter. The herd of aspiring dewy-eyed CA applicants can still feel a sense of pride and accomplishment for successfully passing an exam that gets progressively easier as time goes by. He or she may not be able to identify tree species anymore, but they are ISA Certified Arborists. 

I hope that other organizations professing to be "professional" are less cavalier about the knowledge required to earn their ticket. There could be a bit of a problem if the veterinarian thinks Fluffy the cat has gills, or a surgeon gets the pancreas and spleen mixed up. I hate to see the ISA turn into a diploma mill churning out certificates to whoever forks over the $$$.


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## mckeetree (Feb 21, 2013)

StrataTree said:


> Wow! Who needs reality tv with all this drama!



Thing about it is...most of reality TV is fake. This #### is real.


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## mckeetree (Feb 21, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I hate to see the ISA turn into a diploma mill churning out certificates to whoever forks over the $$$.



Well you better cover your eyes then... QUICK.


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## StrataTree (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah... Hard to pay a G for trainning and get sat down in front of an 80 pound t.v. And told to watch a VHS tape from the eighties!?!?!


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## StrataTree (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the welcome aboard Jeff! I got a feeling I'll be learning a lot here and in the tree from those who know the ropes... Guess learning is just a long process! Paying attention and a lot of doing! Sure is a lot of attention on comps...and not so much on the 30 people a year that go through chippers!?!?


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## StrataTree (Feb 21, 2013)

True!!! No one is dying on reality t.v. Folks don't come home sometimes in this biz!

I heard a 9 and 11 year old passed the ISA exam?!?


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## Pelorus (Feb 21, 2013)

The nine year old asked Santa for some Shigo books when he was five. He is currently the youngest confirmed ISA CA to date.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 21, 2013)

StrataTree said:


> Yeah... Hard to pay a G for trainning and get sat down in front of an 80 pound t.v. And told to watch a VHS tape from the eighties!?!?!



Hey Troll,, elaborate. 
Jeff


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## StrataTree (Feb 22, 2013)

Some of the...wait, "Troll"? Some of the current trainning available has elements that, in my humble opinion, are a tad outdated. I want to be clear though that I would recommend to others the same trainning... Valuable knowledge. It just seems like given the dangers of daily operations the educational material could be refreshed, updated, and revised more frequently. It's a strange industry to enter... No degree that says you are capable, an apparently not so well liked certification process, and minimal to nonexistent oversight...huh? Add a bunch of hacks that want to cut down trees for nothin and let stew on the Internet for a few years...cool, slice, and serve. I'm just a bottom feeder though so leave some crumbs...


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## StrataTree (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't want to come across as saying the material is outdated it just seems like...well I paid for industry training and it would be nice if I felt confidant I was receiving the most current and updated information available. When I am told to watch a VHS tape from the eighties on a vintage tv my confidence about the training diminishes. I mean they don't have it on DVD?!? DVD's are almost obsolete...let alone VHS tapes... What is the ISA doing with all the fees they collect? To be clear my training was not affiliated with the ISA other than CEU's were available. Not tryin to knit pick, but c'mon...it was a whole different world in the eighties, I know, I was there! It's challenging to get quality training in this biz..unbiased quality training...especially given that most companies won't even tell ya how to reverse the feed wheels on a chipper until you've proven you can drag brush all day. I was 2 weeks in before anyone showed me pooh. My very first 5 min with the co. the boss dropped me off, I walked into the ho's yard, and a climber yelled down to me to grab his rigging line. He says you know what "let it run" means, I say "I think so" he chuckles and says, "well, let it run!" And next thing I know I'm catchin a top?!? No training no nothin... Just hustle! Welcome to tree care! Needless to say I was hooked


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 22, 2013)

lxt said:


> LOL, Im living higher than ever & will continue till the day I retire, Now princess what you need to do is post some pics of your work with you doing the tree thing with all yer illegal buddies, cause I think yer just a troll.....! No professional American would ever post the fodder you do! I think you`re a septic tank cleaner & the methane has speed up the process of stupid in you, as a matter of fact you passed stupid long ago.............Now yer just a plain ####ing ass clown.
> 
> 
> 
> LXT...........



Ok. Here you go whine bag. Let me know when you think you're me. 
[video=youtube;yxX1Ao6j8-g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX1Ao6j8-g[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX1Ao6j8-g


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## treeman82 (Feb 22, 2013)

I just got the bill for my CTPA membership dues, I called and said to count me out.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 22, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> I just got the bill for my CTPA membership dues, I called and said to count me out.



Are the dues to much? Why would you do that unless it is useless. Is it?
Jeff


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## treeman82 (Feb 22, 2013)

The dues are only $45 for the year, but I don't feel that they are doing anything for me.. so I stopped the membership on principle. On the other hand if they had sent a letter saying that we are doubling, tripling, or even quadroupling the dues, but will be helping to fight the big fights, I would gladly pay and then some.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 22, 2013)

treeman82 said:


> The dues are only $45 for the year, but I don't feel that they are doing anything for me.. so I stopped the membership on principle. On the other hand if they had sent a letter saying that we are doubling, tripling, or even quadroupling the dues, but will be helping to fight the big fights, I would gladly pay and then some.



What about the 'Request for Bid' and needing the requirement? Hey, your call, I don't know your demographic's or local reg's,,
Heck,,$45 buck's,, Just curious. 
Jeff


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## treeseer (Feb 22, 2013)

lxt said:


> I like having it & take the code of ethics serious & will eventually get my BCMA to basically seperate myself from the masses who have a CA & IMO dont deserve it...!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With all due respect, power to ya. You may be hooked on the good part of the cert bandwagon--prove yourself able, pay attention to ethics, move up, move on. the costs are a trifle compared to the benefits of learning. re getting paid haha i've gone from articles to books and getting zip for that...but i got no argument w what you guys are saying; it aint all true but much is, sad to say. 

But it's a whole lot easier to critique ceu training than to make it happen.


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## treeman82 (Feb 22, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> What about the 'Request for Bid' and needing the requirement? Hey, your call, I don't know your demographic's or local reg's,,
> Heck,,$45 buck's,, Just curious.
> Jeff



RFP is supposed to require licensing through the state, which I will maintain for another 5? years. However contracting entities tend to take bids from non-licensed firms right along side the licensed ones.


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## Raintree (Feb 23, 2013)

Treeman I can understand your frustration with the failed system in Ct.

A few points...

CTPA does provide a convenient avenue to acquire points to maintain your license.

They also bring in good speakers from the industry discussing the latest issues.

The organization dose have some legislative weight at the State house.


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## lxt (Feb 23, 2013)

Seer....you write those articles & do the detective Dendro with no compensation? I apologize, i really thought you would get paid for all that??? thats true dedication on your part!!!


Oh,,,,,CJ, not a bad video, what I find really strange is the close up shot of you in a small tree, no shirt on, drinking from yer bottle & talking some good crap, nice color & clarity &...............then all of a sudden we see a video that looks like it was shot on 8mm, for all I know big foot could of been doing all that..............LOL

Soooo maybe you have skills or are just a novice making it look like you are doing what you cant, IDK..........but if that was all you???? I dont get why you would make/put yourself in a position of coming off like an idiot? clearly the latter of the video shows someone with talent but me wishing to be you..........? HELL NO! ive been there, done that & would never ever talk the line of stupidity you do! be humble, tree care deserves more $$$$.........Not Less!


LXT...............


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## AirBorneMutha (Feb 23, 2013)

cjtreeclimber said:


> Ok. Here you go whine bag. Let me know when you think you're me.
> [video=youtube;yxX1Ao6j8-g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX1Ao6j8-g[/video]
> 
> Tree Work just experimenting for videos and **** at my level - YouTube



Is that mike's hard lemonade you're drinking?


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 23, 2013)

AirBorneMutha said:


> Is that mike's hard lemonade you're drinking?



Ha ha, I didn't want to be the first to say something, but, classic example of self love and ego without thinking pro's can see it. Kinda cool tho!
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## beastmaster (Feb 23, 2013)

I was a CA and I let it go. Not having it hasn't changed much for me personally. With that being said, I'm planning on retaking it soon. 
Aside from my personal feelings about ISA, they have done a good job of promoting themselves to the general public. To a lot of HO and association board members, and city officials that Cert carries weight, even if we don't feel the same. 
If you're asked by an association board member during a bid if your Certified your only option is to say no. They don't want to hear a rant on the politics of the ISA. The public trust the ISA and a Certified Arborist is trusted to be an expert. We know the reality, but Joe home owner doesn't.
Plus think what a bcma in front of your name can do. In some areas and to those of the general public who are making an effort to find good tree people hiring a CA is all they got to base their decisions on. So if I'm not certified, some gardener who has one will get the job before me, without it I'm not even in the contest.


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## Pelorus (Feb 23, 2013)

A "CA" after my name hasn't done anything, so I doubt a "BCMA" would either!
Years ago when the ISA spawned the BCMA, I had my little black heart all set on becoming one. Then, I had a bad accident which caused a reevaluation of career choices, and I let my memberships and CA lapse. Have gradually got back into the groove, but my opinion is far different about the ISA now then it was 6 or 7 years ago. Have lost that loving feeling. 

I think if I asked a random group of people up here what the ISA is, or does, or represents, nobody would have a clue. There might just be a big difference in the public's awareness of that outfit depending on geography.


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## treeseer (Feb 24, 2013)

'A "CA" after my name hasn't done anything'

Is that only the fault of the cert, or maybe in part a lack of promoting it? beastmaster, good on you for sucking up your pride and retaking. i had to in the mid-90's, when my attention span and attitude failed me; no regrets.

'I doubt a "BCMA" would either!'

It could if you use it well. It's been a great investment for me. I was among the first dozen to take it 9 years ago, and it gets me good jobs--no price shoppers, just quality seekers.

' my opinion is far different about the ISA now then it was 6 or 7 years ago. Have lost that loving feeling.'

me too but mine has been replaced by a liking-well-enough feeling. :msp_tongue: 

'I think if I asked a random group of people up here what the ISA is, or does, or represents, nobody would have a clue. There might just be a big difference in the public's awareness of that outfit depending on geography.'

o i just saw 300+ Ontario arborists at their conference last week who would beg to differ . They are all investing in and reaping the benefits of isa's efforts and their chapter's. The ones I met seemed far from fools--they taught me a lot and opened my eyes to some great work they are doing. :msp_thumbup:

It's very easy to criticize here, but very profitable to promote on the job. Bottom line, Where is your energy best invested?


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## cjtreeclimber (Feb 24, 2013)

lxt said:


> Seer....you write those articles & do the detective Dendro with no compensation? I apologize, i really thought you would get paid for all that??? thats true dedication on your part!!!
> 
> 
> Oh,,,,,CJ, not a bad video, what I find really strange is the close up shot of you in a small tree, no shirt on, drinking from yer bottle & talking some good crap, nice color & clarity &...............then all of a sudden we see a video that looks like it was shot on 8mm, for all I know big foot could of been doing all that..............LOL
> ...



Every bit of that was from cell phone cameras of me working. I just want to get under your skin for talking drivel about the sacrifices I made in order to get where I'm at now. 95 % All my climbing and rigging Professional methodology I learned myself off you tube (thank God it was there for me!). The only thing that is cheap now is the idea of working for someone else for 15 - 20 an hour and what is expensive is what I'd charge you to use me for a day probably. Anyways, whats done is done, and I'm happy you like my vid. I have more on my channel, and Hoping to get a pro to record one of the bigger jobs I have coming up.


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## mckeetree (Feb 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> A "CA" after my name hasn't done anything, so I doubt a "BCMA" would either!
> Years ago when the ISA spawned the BCMA, I had my little black heart all set on becoming one. Then, I had a bad accident which caused a reevaluation of career choices, and I let my memberships and CA lapse.  Have gradually got back into the groove, but my opinion is far different about the ISA now then it was 6 or 7 years ago. Have lost that loving feeling.
> 
> I think if I asked a random group of people up here what the ISA is, or does, or represents, nobody would have a clue. There might just be a big difference in the public's awareness of that outfit depending on geography.



I only know two BCMA's. One does strictly consultation and is an A-1 first class guy. The other does consultation in addition to everything else including application and is knowledgeable enough but is a rip off artist. I don't have any interest in obtaining a BCMA. I'm a CA but as far as formal education relating to the green industry have more than either of the aforementioned BCMA's. I've been a licensed applicator for 30 years and have actually kept up with latest products. I know what they are and how to use them. I know guys with an applicator's license that don't know imidacloprid from permethrin from paclobutrazol from possum ####. I spoke with one yesterday at pizza hut. I think that particular idiot is actually doing applications under someone else license but he is out there trying to treat trees and this fool does not have a damn clue. I mean this jerk has no idea what he is applying.


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## Pelorus (Feb 24, 2013)

treeseer said:


> 'A "CA" after my name hasn't done anything'
> 
> Is that only the fault of the cert, or maybe in part a lack of promoting it?
> 
> ...



Treeseer, no disrespect intended here. I have been playing this game a long time. And I have been to two ISAO Annual conferences in the past where I felt my time and money was well spent. Ditto for some other seminars. I kinda get the sense that you feel the ISA is some kind of Sacred Cow that should be immune from criticism. I would suggest that criticism can actually benefit the ISA.

Lowering exam standards (to enable mediocrity to achieve the arbitrary standard). is wrong. I don't care if it is High School, or a job, or an organization like the ISA. Dropping the tree ID requirement from the CA was wrong. Dropping the minimum pass percentage requirements for each specific exam domain was wrong. Tell me why you old think otherwise? I the ISA did this just to generate more $$$. Dumb it down so more unqualified folks can now say they are "certified".


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## mckeetree (Feb 24, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> Treeseer, no disrespect intended here. I have been playing this game a long time. And I have been to two ISAO Annual conferences in the past where I felt my time and money was well spent. Ditto for some other seminars. I kinda get the sense that you feel the ISA is some kind of Sacred Cow that should be immune from criticism. I would suggest that criticism can actually benefit the ISA.
> 
> Lowering exam standards (to enable mediocrity to achieve the arbitrary standard). is wrong. I don't care if it is High School, or a job, or an organization like the ISA. Dropping the tree ID requirement from the CA was wrong. Dropping the minimum pass percentage requirements for each specific exam domain was wrong. Tell me why you old think otherwise? I the ISA did this just to generate more $$$. Dumb it down so more unqualified folks can now say they are "certified".



Good post and mirrors my thoughts on the CA exam. One the things folks that are really into the ISA are just going to have to accept is the fact when you get away from people in the trade nobody knows what the ISA is. I've noticed an individual on here that seems to be in denial about that fact. People have heard of a certified arborist but they have no idea what that really is or that it has anything to do with the ISA.


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## Pelorus (Feb 24, 2013)

It is difficult (for me) ethically to promotes an inferior product on consumers that is now being mass produced cheaply to maximize the company's profit margin. ie. the certified arborist program. It wasn't like this years ago. 

If the fundamentalist ISA disciples want to evangelize the unwashed masses that's fine, but it is now a watered-down gospel that they are flogging nowadays re. certification. I find it a tad insulting to be criticized for pointing out that the donkey's teeth are worn down, and it's ribs are sticking out. If I didn't care about the damn donkey I wouldn't have forked over some money this year towards it's upkeep. (Chapter membership dues and CA certification).


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## treeseer (Feb 24, 2013)

it is difficult (for me) ethically to promotes an inferior product on consumers that is now being mass produced cheaply to maximize the company's profit margin. ie. the certified arborist program. 

Me neither
I do it to maximize my own profit
And if they dont make money they cant exist
Can your biz?

Better a watered-down drink than thirst
Again no arguments on the slide but show me a better deal


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## mckeetree (Feb 24, 2013)

The CA program is exactly today where I predicted it would be today thirteen years ago. One of the current problems it faces ties into part of this thread and several other threads and that is the fact that customers are starting to equate a CA with higher rates. It is a big problem in the south. We were talking earlier about how price has become king and it has. Price has become the king kong deal maker breaker in this business and it is going to get worse. People can beat around the bush all they want and say it's the "new economy" and I don't want to get on my soapbox but anyone that is even remotely intelligent knows what the real problem is. And it's about to get worse. I was on the phone last week with a Dallas, TX tree service owner that was talking about leaving mention of CA out of his ads. His words... "Hell, I don't know if it helps or hurts anymore. You know how people are nowadays and they see that and think you are going to be three times the price of Juan."


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## Pelorus (Feb 24, 2013)

Treeseer, I am guilty of not keeping up with technology re. self-promotion via a website, etc.
I do advertise the fact that I am an ISA CA, and a current ISAO Chapter member. It doesn't, and just has not accomplished anything positive that is discernible to date. I don't know if that is my fault, the ISA's fault, or Joe Public's fault, or any combination of all three. It is what it is.

Being unaware of a better deal doesn't mean I/we should be complacent or lackadaisical about a deterioration of accreditation standards. My own standards are not dropping in order to generate greater profits; consequently I am somewhat dismayed that the ISA would do so.


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## MackenzieTree (Feb 24, 2013)

so everyone feels that the isa or being a ca is not worth it and useless or too much money?


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## Pelorus (Feb 24, 2013)

It is like replacing a pair of worn out boots from a trusted manufacturer, and finding out the new ones are of lesser quality. Am just a tad disapointed that they certainly aren't as good as the old ones, even though the ISA claims they are. The bootmaker is producing lotsa different boots nowadays...


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## mckeetree (Feb 24, 2013)

MackenzieTree said:


> so everyone feels that the isa or being a ca is not worth it and useless or too much money?



The fees are reasonable. ISA membership is very reasonable compared to TCIA. The CA credential certainly is not "worthless" but to sum it up the public has very, very little awareness of the ISA although a few have heard the term "certified arborist" but are not sure what that really is, and, John Q. Public's perception of value is changing right before our very eyes. I deal with that 24/7.


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## Pelorus (Feb 25, 2013)

A large envelope arrived today from the ISA.
Online Learning Center brochure, Credentials / Qualifications info, membership card, etc.
Feeling more positive now. Lesson learned for me is to never abandon hope! Gotta stay positive.


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## david miller (Feb 25, 2013)

did I read that right self taught from utube :msp_tongue: cool vid


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## lxt (Feb 25, 2013)

I think the problem is easy to fix, have the Cert requirements be stricter, do away with the tree climber specialist BS & make that apart of the CA like it was years ago, I think all CA`s should have to prove they can perform an aerial rescue, ID trees, perform a skills test and verify ones background!!! home depot, lowes & ace hardware dont count!!!

I dont wanna hear that some 80 year old guy should be able to be a CA or a 9 year old kid...........thats ridiculous!!! get away from politically correct & make this a specialized Cert like it should be & then promote it!

If I can still climb & perform an aerial rescue after heart surgery............. then the BS excuses of someone being to old or handicapped are BS, If I cant pass the medical exam for my CDL I dont get to drive & am decertified! make the CA the same upon initial testing.....then its just CEU`s after that.

The problem is they want everyone certified & have to dumb it down for the types we all know are out there! 


LXT...........


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## bootboy (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm not a full time pro by any means but I have a registered business and insurance. But I feel like I have a sound basic understanding of economics.

My 2 cents?

Adapt or die. There is only so much you can do to control the market climate. Times are changing and it's hard to have your cake and eat it too. I think that like with a lot of other things, the market got inflated and a lot of folks rode the good times but the bottom has come out a little. Maybe the prices got artificially high. Free markets have a remarkable way of regulating if given time. Finding ways to be more effective and efficient are what will keep those with skills in both business and the trade afloat. The economy over the last 2 decades has seen bubbles grow and burst. Maybe this is the tree work bubble bursting. Maybe scaling back the size of operations and cutting overhead is what it will take. Perhaps working on a large scale isn't the most efficient way anymore. Like someone said earlier, the guys he knows who still make a decent living have nothing but their pickups, saws, and skill.
Some here will probably not like what I've said but maybe it's the cold hard truth, to be competitive, you must adapt.
I'm all for certifications but for it to matter, you've got to get creative about coming up with ways to make them important to your prospective customers. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I think I can see several problems the industry and its professionals are facing.

Just my 2 cents


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## AirBorneMutha (Feb 25, 2013)

lxt said:


> I think the problem is easy to fix, have the Cert requirements be stricter, do away with the tree climber specialist BS & make that apart of the CA like it was years ago, I think all CA`s should have to prove they can perform an aerial rescue, ID trees, perform a skills test and verify ones background!!! home depot, lowes & ace hardware dont count!!!
> 
> I dont wanna hear that some 80 year old guy should be able to be a CA or a 9 year old kid...........thats ridiculous!!! get away from politically correct & make this a specialized Cert like it should be & then promote it!
> 
> ...



What are you asking for isa to go bankrupt?


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## mckeetree (Feb 25, 2013)

bootboy said:


> I'm not a full time pro by any means but I have a registered business and insurance. But I feel like I have a sound basic understanding of economics.
> 
> My 2 cents?
> 
> ...



Some of your post makes a little sense. Here is the thing...NAA, now TCIA, and ISA always promoted professionalism. Be professional, spend money on training, keep your equipment right, follow best practices, take time out for paid employee safety meetings, get credentialed, get licensed, insure your business, insure your employees, keep your paper work right, keep your taxes tightened up, get your CDL, and etc., etc., etc. TCIA and ISA like to meet with politicians and slap each other on the back about what a good job they are doing promoting all this professionalism and what a good thing it is and how the government loves to see tight ships just freaking overflowing with professionalism. Then, the government who claimed to be on our side decided they would let 15,000,000 illegal aliens compete with us. These illegals would be held to no standards, allowed to operate in any fashion they see fit, pay no taxes, be really, really unprofessional, be immune from regulations, etc., etc., etc. Johnny Q. Public liked the idea of all the professionalism but Juan Mojado would do for $350.00 what John Professional needed $975.00 to do and it wasn't long before price started to become the old big deal maker breaker over just about anything else. Old guys like me who came up the old NAA way didn't know what to do except approach the client with their ins. in one hand and their credentials in the other. With maybe their applicators license stuck to their forehead. It wasn't long before too many customers viewed all this as justification to charge a lot more than Chingones Tree Service. And it was justification...being better, insured, licensed and legal was what we all used to justify a higher rate. Problem is, things just kept sliding towards the who is the cheapest side. I see it everyday.


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## Pelorus (Feb 25, 2013)

mckeetree, have you tried marketing to a different clientele? Commercial / insurance work rather than residential? My biz is mostly residential, but I can stay reasonably busy by also contract climbing for two other tree services (in different towns). Marketing / advertising is my Achilles heel, and I depend a lot more on referrals and repeat customers than attracting new ones. I try to offer them friendly and efficient professional service at a reasonable price point. Sometimes way too reasonable, grrrrrr. A business relationship seems to change for me once the client begins to become a friend more than a client. Not good for "the bottom line"

The big outfits up here like Bartlett and Davey target municipalities, and big estate properties owned by multimillionaires. The rich cats aren't going to hire any outfit that doesn't come with a pedigree and a golden history.


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## bootboy (Feb 25, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> Some of your post makes a little sense. Here is the thing...NAA, now TCIA, and ISA always promoted professionalism. Be professional, spend money on training, keep your equipment right, follow best practices, take time out for paid employee safety meetings, get credentialed, get licensed, insure your business, insure your employees, keep your paper work right, keep your taxes tightened up, get your CDL, and etc., etc., etc. TCIA and ISA like to meet with politicians and slap each other on the back about what a good job they are doing promoting all this professionalism and what a good thing it is and how the government loves to see tight ships just freaking overflowing with professionalism. Then, the government who claimed to be on our side decided they would let 15,000,000 illegal aliens compete with us. These illegals would be held to no standards, allowed to operate in any fashion they see fit, pay no taxes, be really, really unprofessional, be immune from regulations, etc., etc., etc. Johnny Q. Public liked the idea of all the professionalism but Juan Mojado would do for $350.00 what John Professional needed $975.00 to do and it wasn't long before price started to become the old big deal maker breaker over just about anything else. Old guys like me who came up the old NAA way didn't know what to do except approach the client with their ins. in one hand and their credentials in the other. With maybe their applicators license stuck to their forehead. It wasn't long before too many customers viewed all this as justification to charge a lot more than Chingones Tree Service. And it was justification...being better, insured, licensed and legal was what we all used to justify a higher rate. Problem is, things just kept sliding towards the who is the cheapest side. I see it everyday.



I agree, all valid points you make there. I should have been more clear about things that can be fixed and that it's important to do what you can to create the type of market we'd like to see. But short of all that, adapting a business to changing market climates is why some businesses make it through tough times. Like I said, maybe some of the old ways won't work in a new world.
One plus to the inconvenience of economic and political pressure is that it drives innovation and creativity. not to say that it is intrinsically good, but there is a silver lining to it. Just as the EPA and rising energy costs have driven the advances in automotive technology, so economic circumstances drive better business strategies. 
I agree that it's a damn shame that illegal immigration is killing some industries because those that do it legally have to recoup what they lose in taxes after Uncle Sam takes his share. To survive they have to pass the bill to their customers. Naturally, the consumer looks for the better deal that juan offers. getting the same product for half the price because jose doesn't lose anything to uncle sam.
As for the tree industry, I think certification requirements should be stricter and better enforced. Things that can be done politically to create a truly fair playing field by making everyone play by the same rules, should be done. Instead of punishing those that play by the rules, no more rules, at least not until everyone is playing by the ones we have.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 25, 2013)

This thread is taking off.
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## Pelorus (Feb 25, 2013)

I naturally gravitate to ISA threads like a vulture to a dead groundhog.


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## mckeetree (Feb 25, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> mckeetree, have you tried marketing to a different clientele? Commercial / insurance work rather than residential? My biz is mostly residential, but I can stay reasonably busy by also contract climbing for two other tree services (in different towns). Marketing / advertising is my Achilles heel, and I depend a lot more on referrals and repeat customers than attracting new ones. I try to offer them friendly and efficient professional service at a reasonable price point. Sometimes way too reasonable, grrrrrr. A business relationship seems to change for me once the client begins to become a friend more than a client. Not good for "the bottom line"
> 
> The big outfits up here like Bartlett and Davey target municipalities, and big estate properties owned by multimillionaires. The rich cats aren't going to hire any outfit that doesn't come with a pedigree and a golden history.



We can roll with the punches but it has not been painless. We have just flat had to lower our rates on SOME services. Some, not all. We are charging the same on consultation, chemical application, stump grinding, air spade work and some other services. We have had to lower rates on pruning and removals. Removals are so cheap around here anymore you really have to rethink if you really even want to do them. We do some municipal work and haven't had to cut prices there. The brown crowd has a tough time around here with any job that requires much equipment. We are actually in a county next to Dallas county that is more rural and we probably have the best equipped residential tree service in this county but if they can tackle it with a beat up 1983 F250 and an old ragged out 16 ft. utility trailer look out. They will buy yellow page ads and they are pretty brazen. The gov. has looked the other way as far as they are concerned for so long now they figure they don't have to hide. Dozens of them drive around here with no DL like they own the place. I had to show my CDL about a month ago, can you believe it? Anyway, we have had to adapt, and yes, the CA credential along with every other credential or license or type of ins. is getting to be a harder sell everyday.


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## mckeetree (Feb 25, 2013)

bootboy said:


> Things that can be done politically to create a truly fair playing field by making everyone play by the same rules, should be done. Instead of punishing those that play by the rules, no more rules, at least not until everyone is playing by the ones we have.



Roll me one of tho....no, seriously, well I was pretty serious, that is not going to happen.


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## lxt (Feb 26, 2013)

mckee has hit it right on, I dont have to compete with the same crowd but in some instances its a worse kinda crowd, Americans outta work who cashed in their 401k or what was left of it, they have no skills but manged to buy a pickup, some lawn equip, chainsaws, ropes, etc... they ran their unemployment out & now qualify for some obama entitlements. their grocery carts are full with product I cant afford............so they go out with farwood in mind, no insurance, no nothing, they throw up their aluminum ladder & start a cuttin, a marlboro hanging outta mouth, no PPE & the eagerness to make $500 for the week & have their sons load up a cord or 2 with the ford ranger!

Now im all for earning a living but like mckee said, its going backwards, to be self employed wont be worth it untill this country regulates illegals, creates jobs & makes it a neccessity to be credentialed, licensed, insured & to pay taxes!!! Now as for the ISA...........whelp fellas & girls, they`re selling alot of their stuff in spanish & if the poor illegal bastard cant read they have picture pages & CD`s with a speaker walking them through whatever they need, its almost as though the ISA has a plan to capitalize on this....like they know illegals are going to have a future impact & will be the main players, so from their point of view: "why make the CA any harder? cause then habib wont be able to pass the test" 




LXT................


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## timberland ts (Feb 26, 2013)

The problem is the isa and others arent marketing the right areas. Take for example the angus association they market to the consumerand get great results. I agree that the cert means next to nothing besides passing a test. Ive seen real good certified tree guys and some piss poor. As far as getting low balled i see i form both sides pickup hillbillies and the big guys making payroll. I got hooked up with some campgrounds and small local towns which helps alot. If you want to make it isnt easy. Im just a little fish swimming in a big pond.


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## mckeetree (Feb 26, 2013)

timberland ts said:


> The problem is the isa and others arent marketing the right areas.



You are right. ISA and TCIA are unheard of by the consumer.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 26, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> You are right. ISA and TCIA are unheard of by the consumer.



If the consumer is a home owner, right.
Where I work (not residential), you need it.
Jeff:msp_smile:


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## mckeetree (Feb 26, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> If the consumer is a home owner, right.
> Where I work (not residential), you need it.
> Jeff:msp_smile:



Yeah, yeah, you are right.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

Looked at a very nice website a tree co. owner posted over on the Buzz.
What really stuck out to me, (besides the high quality if the website). was the comment that using SEO, "affordable" generates far more hits than "certified arborist". I think the actual comment ran more like "nobody is looking for a certified arborist" using SEO. 

I find that kinda sobering; the ISA is promoting a product that customers are not looking for.


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## mckeetree (Feb 27, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I find that kinda sobering; the ISA is promoting a product that customers are not looking for.



They don't know what it is. You don't look for what you don't know about. They know about "affordable" and "cheap."


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

Am currently working on Yellow Pages ad, (for whatever work it continues to generate), and taking tentative first steps towards getting a website. Gonna try to balance the "affordable" with the "professional credentials". A teeter totter to appeal to a wider demographic.....like politics.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> They don't know what it is. You don't look for what you don't know about. They know about "affordable" and "cheap."



Yeah. You could have the greatest product in the world, and if not marketed properly, nobody is gonna buy it. (Except the converted). I dunno how much actual $$$, or what percentage of the ISA's budget is spent on external marketing that targets consumers, and how effective or ineffective that marketing actually is. 
I'm pretty sure that internal marketing that targets the arborist community isn't lacking, judging by a high percentage of self - promotional ISA advertising I used to see in (older) copies of the Arborist News.....which the public doesn't read.


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

If anyone knows about how to go about these sorts of things, why don't we get together and tell ISA leadership how we feel.

The ISA, the MW chapter, and the St. Louis Arborist Association are all kind of guilty of marketing to arborists and not to the end user. We all just get together and feel good about ourselves, knowing we are doing the right thing, but the HO doesn't know.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

stltreedr said:


> If anyone knows about how to go about these sorts of things, why don't we get together and tell ISA leadership how we feel.



I'd be happy to write up a draft letter and post it here for suggestions and criticism.
It would be worthwhile inviting an ISA employee at the top tier of their feeding chain to participate in this thread. Alternatively, I suppose that concerns / questions could be voiced directly on the ISA's own discussion board, but the last time I ever wandered over there, the crickets were chirping.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

From the mother ship:
"ISA Discussion Forums

The ISA Discussion Forums have been closed due to security concerns with the tool. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

We encourage you to join us Facebook and LinkedIn community pages. Many of our members and credential holders utilize the discussion features of these two sites."


I'm not a big Facebook fan, and not familiar with LinkedIn. 
Mebbe someone here might be willing to pursue this further.


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm not on facebook, but do have an active account on LinkedIN. Although I rarely look at it. Think we should go about this petition style? I don't think it would be wise to Invite ISA leadership to this thread or this site; there is a bunch of off topic rambling, name calling, racism, (this thread especially), and general childishness that might discredit our appeal.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

Um, I did post a link to this thread in an email to the ISA a couple of minutes ago.
It is like buying a lottery ticket and hoping for a positive outcome, while having realistic expectations.


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

That was just my opinion anyway. No biggie.


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

Maybe we should try to find out how many current or former certified arborists, isa members, or potential future CA's or members are active on this site. If we have a couple hundred we might carry some weight.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

Maybe a separate thread could take a poll of current / former ISA members / CA's of whether they are content with the status quo, neutral, or would like see some change in direction of where the ISA has headed in recent years.


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## lxt (Feb 27, 2013)

honestly id let them in on this thread so they can see how people feel....let em have the real world side of it: good, bad, ugly


LXT........


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## treeseer (Feb 27, 2013)

lxt said:


> ...let em have the real world side of it .....



And the unreal world slide of it too...:yoyo:

If there are concrete ideas on ways to reach out to other audiences, or better yet concrete examples, they might get attention. 

Totally agree on need to broaden the outreach--like presenting to garden clubs and landscape/nursery groups, etc. They have free ppts to do this International Society of Arboriculture


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## Toddppm (Feb 27, 2013)

If they don't know about this site or the Buzz they are asleep at the wheel. 
I'm pretty sure people over there check in once in a while but to post on an open forum could get ugly for them. I wouldn't advise it:msp_tongue:. They should be checking in to get a feel for what's going on though.
The old ISA forum was a little out of control and I'm sure they didn't like having to babysit, if they put enough oversight on it, it could make them some $$$ with advertisers but not sure if it would be profitable.


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## Toddppm (Feb 27, 2013)

stltreedr said:


> The ISA, the MW chapter, and the St. Louis Arborist Association are all kind of guilty of marketing to arborists and not to the end user. We all just get together and feel good about ourselves, knowing we are doing the right thing, but the HO doesn't know.



Funny and sad but true!

They have a voice in my area as the local extension services refer people to the isa sites when they ask about tree problems.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 27, 2013)

Just playing devils advocate but,,
Do you expect ISA to promote your business or is that something you should promote?
Should ISA have it's own police force and marketing force in every town a CA lives?
It's not fair we are cert pro's and hacks take our job's. 
In this economy, I can see residential as a risky and hard way to make money.
It's all demographics and clientele. Small towns and big cities. Depends on where you live and who are your customer's. 
Some people don't care, some do. If you don't need it, don't get it. But when you get it, promote it. Don't expect ISA to inform all the citizens about who to hire.
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Feb 27, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> In this economy, I can see residential as a risky and hard way to make money.



You ain't never wrong on that one.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

"THE ISA MISSION STATEMENT
Through research, technology, and education, the International Society of Arboriculture promotes the professional practice of arboriculture and fosters a greater worldwide awareness of the benefits of trees."

This "greater worldwide awareness" seems entirely dependant on people blundering onto the ISA site by accident, or being fortunate enough, (either by design or again by accident) to hire a professional to look after their tree needs, who in turn feels sufficiently blessed by his/her ISA relationship to promote the association.

I would regard it as somewhat miraculous to have somebody actually discover my company via the ISA website. Which is OK, because they would first have to discover the ISA, which in itself is a bit of a long shot. So a double miracle would have to take place. But wait a minute.....the potential client wold have to be aware that I'm listed on the ISA website as operating in the little hamlet of "Utterson," even though a Town of almost 20,000 is literally 5 minutes away! And there are currently 3 of us CA's listed for Utterson.


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> Just playing devils advocate but,,
> Do you expect ISA to promote your business or is that something you should promote?
> Should ISA have it's own police force and marketing force in every town a CA lives?
> It's not fair we are cert pro's and hacks take our job's.
> ...



I dont think that's what we're talking about. At least not me. The ISA should promote themselves to folks other than arborists. Someone made the point about angus beef earlier, some group marketed the crap out of that years ago and now its like the gold standard in the public's eye. Its still up to the farmers to decide what to raise though. Our product is quality arboriculture...Our main industry trade! group is the ISA. Average people need to know what the ISA is or its benefit to us is only internal.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 27, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> I would regard it as somewhat miraculous to have somebody actually discover my company via the ISA website. Which is OK, because they would first have to discover the ISA, which in itself is a bit of a long shot. So a double miracle would have to take place. But wait a minute.....the potential client wold have to be aware that I'm listed on the ISA website as operating in the little hamlet of "Utterson," even though a Town of almost 20,000 is literally 5 minutes away! And there are currently 3 of us CA's listed for Utterson.



So you do want an ISA police to protect your investment? Because ISA did not promote you? Come on man, if you are the man,, then let them know,, don't expect ISA to promote you,, promote yourself. Beer time!
Jeff


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> "THE ISA MISSION STATEMENT
> Through research, technology, and education, the International Society of Arboriculture promotes the professional practice of arboriculture and fosters a greater worldwide awareness of the benefits of trees."
> 
> This "greater worldwide awareness" seems entirely dependant on people blundering onto the ISA site by accident, or being fortunate enough, (either by design or again by accident) to hire a professional to look after their tree needs, who in turn feels sufficiently blessed by his/her ISA relationship to promote the association.
> ...




I actually get a few calls a year from the isa. Not a bunch, but a few and they are usually diagnoses or consulting. Still, average joe never heard of it.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> So you do want an ISA police to protect your investment? Because ISA did not promote you? Come on man, if you are the man,, then let them know,, don't expect ISA to promote you,, promote yourself. Beer time!
> Jeff



LOL Jeff! You're the man. I'm just a midget.
My "million dollar"marketing campaign is being shrewdly and meticulously undertaken, and rest assured I'm not feeling hard done by the ISA. Caught a typo yesterday on a new business card proof that had me listed as a TSA Certified Arborist.


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 27, 2013)

stltreedr said:


> I dont think that's what we're talking about. At least not me. The ISA should promote themselves to folks other than arborists.



They do,, HOA's, Golf Course's, commercial property's, muni and gov.
The fact that you said 'Folk's", shows that what I said is right,,You feel ISA should promote you and you not them.
Either work the cert or don't get it it! Quit #####ing, (Sorry),, really, chose your market.
Jeff :msp_biggrin:


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 27, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> LOL Jeff! You're the man. I'm just a midget.
> My "million dollar"marketing campaign is being shrewdly and meticulously undertaken, and rest assured I'm not feeling hard done by the ISA. Caught a typo yesterday on a new business card proof that had me listed as a TSA Certified Arborist.



Well, you are from Canada,,,, LOL!!!!!!
Jeff,,


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

"work the cert or don't get it it"

Does that mean when you buy a car you have to do the marketing for the automaker?


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## stltreedr (Feb 27, 2013)

I work for municipalities, they know about isa because they have a ca on staff. And im not #####in either. I would be certified anyway. I dont want isa to promote my particular business any more than the nra promotes each individual gun dealer. They protect and promote their values and their brand, they work every day to make the environment better for gun owners and dealers. But that wouldn't work if noone had ever heard of them.


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> HOA's, Golf Course's, commercial property's, muni and gov.h
> Jeff :msp_biggrin:



Yup. The ISA refers to this as: "global efforts to inform tree care consumers"
I think your average tree care consumer doesn't own a golf course or commercial property, so mebbe the wording should read: "global efforts to lobby business interests with deep pockets"


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

This devils advocate business is great fun! oke:


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## jefflovstrom (Feb 27, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> This devils advocate business is great fun! oke:



We don't do residential but I can relate.
Jeff,, tired, see ya tomorrow,,
Jeff


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## Pelorus (Feb 27, 2013)

Good night, Jeff.
Hope you have a beautiful day tomorrow.


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## lxt (Feb 28, 2013)

Jeff,

dont you find it funny that municipalities, utilities & some state contracts require one to be ISA CA...........why lobby to make the cert a requirement for certain entities & not lobby on a broader spectrum?

you dont work residential but many here do, I worked the residential/commercial market which catered to a large group, I thought being diversified would expand my biz.........silly me! I dont expect anyone nor would I want anyone to promote my biz, but the main part of all our complaints is about a Certification that is widely non recognized, a Certification that no longer sets us apart because anyone with a rudimentary level of reading & spelling can take the test and pass EASILY, the actual skills & ID modules have been eliminated to a point where a ####ing 9 year old is a CA

How screwed up Jeff...........do you like knowing that you are on the same academic level as a 9 year old or better yet lets be politically correct and let those on the short bus take & pass the exam, wouldnt wanna leave anyone out...........hell how about Mr. smith at 76? his prostrates gone, he cant walk but hey he`s a CA for the local town shade tree commision, never mind that catarack dam near blinding him!!!

Its a dam joke & becoming an embarrassment to those in the trade who can do the job & have the knowledge.......where I work right now they`re making all the older linemen perform an aerial rescue & if they cant do it.......? possible decertification!!!! lets make the CA similar!!!!!!!!!!!



LXT............


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## Pelorus (Feb 28, 2013)

LXT, just want to clarify that I was being facetious in affirming what somebody else posted about a 9 yr. old actually becoming a CA. Perhaps there actually are prepubescent ISA CA's running around playing in trees after the school bus drops them off, but I don't actually know of any...........yet.


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## Pelorus (Feb 28, 2013)

3 "actually"s in that post. Yuck.


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## StrataTree (Feb 28, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> 3 "actually"s in that post. Yuck.



Actually, their dad is a CA, and MAY have been making a point about the process that many of you actually agree with, IT'S JUST TOO EASY! 

And ACTUALLY I agree that something needs to distinguish the CA newbie from the CA pro...but I got nothin. So the whole deal about a person needing 3 yrs of work experience before they take the test, I guess that's not cutting it cuz companies are working around that requirement in order to get their climbers certified OR 3 yrs ain't enuf experience to keep ya from bein a hack. 
Maybe the ISA should enforce the criteria a little harder or make sure the "experience" applicants provide is strictly climbing and verifiable...Or, as others have stated, do away with the climber focus and make it so an applicant must be experienced in ALL aspects of arboriculture. And then make the test reflect that....and no hand holding. Pass or Fail!
The ISA may go broke but there won't be CA hacks, or at least not as many. And your CA would actually mean somethin!

That's 4 actually's I win


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## Pelorus (Feb 28, 2013)

If you look through the ISA 2011 Annual Report, it lists expenditures of $2.3 Million for Administration, and $392,000 for Public / Industry Relations.
I dunno, but with revenues of $7 & 1/2 Million, the $392,000 doesn't seem like a lot. Around 5%. I would certainly think twice before donating money to a not-for-profit organization that spends 30% of it's income on administration. I'm pretty sure that registered charities should be able to keep their administration overhead to 20% or less. And yeah, I know the ISA isn't a charity.


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## stltreedr (Mar 1, 2013)

StrataTree said:


> And ACTUALLY I agree that something needs to distinguish the CA newbie from the CA pro...but I got nothin. :




There is The BCMA- Which is very difficult, and requires a ton of documentation to qualify to take the test. Still though, the awareness isn't there with the public- If John Q Public doesn't know what a CA is, there's no way he would know what BCMA is.


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## stltreedr (Mar 1, 2013)

Pelorus said:


> If you look through the ISA 2011 Annual Report, it lists expenditures of $2.3 Million for Administration, and $392,000 for Public / Industry Relations.
> I dunno, but with revenues of $7 & 1/2 Million, the $392,000 doesn't seem like a lot. Around 5%. I would certainly think twice before donating money to a not-for-profit organization that spends 30% of it's income on administration. I'm pretty sure that registered charities should be able to keep their administration overhead to 20% or less. And yeah, I know the ISA isn't a charity.



Those numbers are crazy...When the mission statement is to to globally promote arboriculture, then only 5% of revenue goes toward that end...Shameful.


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## Pelorus (Mar 1, 2013)

Not necessarily. $1.26 Million got spent on "educational goods and services" (which generated $1 .5 Million in revenue). Books, brochures, DVD's, etc. Internal sales to the arborist community vs the general public. Perhaps the idea here is to get arborists to buy the brochures to hand out to interested parties, which I have done in the past.
I do feel that the administration overhead is a tad on the high side, and may be even higher than stated, if some salaries are buried in the "program delivery" expense category.


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## mckeetree (Mar 1, 2013)

stltreedr said:


> There is The BCMA- Which is very difficult, and requires a ton of documentation to qualify to take the test. Still though, the awareness isn't there with the public- If John Q Public doesn't know what a CA is, there's no way he would know what BCMA is.



I'm a CA not a BCMA but since that credential came about I have worked for ONE customer that had heard of a BCMA. Just heard of now, they had no idea what it was but they had heard of it.


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## timberland ts (Mar 1, 2013)

No different than the government they do whats best for them not the people. Until you get the average small business men and women envolved things wont change.


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## treeseer (Mar 2, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> I'm a CA not a BCMA but since that credential came about I have worked for ONE customer that had heard of a BCMA. Just heard of now, they had no idea what it was but they had heard of it.



Very different in this market, where BCMA has been promoted since 2004--many clients know CA and want more, and will pay more for BCMA. Just did a $1100 job thanks to BCMA. # of other bidders, Zero. 

"No different than the government they do whats best for them not the people. Until you get the average small business men and women envolved things wont change."

Where is TCIA in this thread? Their mission is to do what a lot of you all are saying ISA should be doing.


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## mckeetree (Mar 2, 2013)

treeseer said:


> Very different in this market, where BCMA has been promoted since 2004--many clients know CA and want more, and will pay more for BCMA.



It is interesting to hear you speak of the strange world you live in. Don't ever move here. You wouldn't like it here on my planet.


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## AirBorneMutha (Mar 2, 2013)

Anyone see this yet? Be neat to see the movie when it's finished.

Limbwalkers - Short Documentary [Trailer] on Vimeo


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## treeseer (Mar 2, 2013)

mckeetree said:


> It is interesting to hear you speak of the strange world you live in. Don't ever move here. You wouldn't like it here on my planet.



ok i won't...but your planet is what you make of it. Lotsa arborists here promoting good care and certs. It won't happen by itself, that's for sure!


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## mckeetree (Mar 2, 2013)

treeseer said:


> ok i won't...but your planet is what you make of it. Lotsa arborists here promoting good care and certs. It won't happen by itself, that's for sure!



I hope you didn't take that wrong about moving here...heck, I've got a spare room nobody is using. Thing is I don't think you would appreciate this place. Here, certs are used to freshen your mouth.


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## Sunrise Guy (Mar 13, 2013)

He could always head a couple hundred miles south, to my neck of the woods. Here, certs are valuable, thanks to tree rules and regulations requiring CA's, put into effect, by the City of Austin. Of course, everyone is now moving to Austin, or so they tell me, and that's destroying much of what makes this city pretty cool, in the first place.


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## derwoodii (Mar 13, 2013)

strewth 11 pages,, I'm not reading em all. I am ISA cert and re did my 30 points last year 15 or so by attending a conference and 15 by doing the online arbnews mag tree quiz in all very happy, always learn't sumthin always pushed me to get the score.

ISA cert Arb hardly known down here, so not a needed thing prolly @ guess about 100 all up cert in OZ cert but its a good qualification to add the my many. 

this reminds me got 2 more arbnews mags best start a reading.


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