# Hire a pro or DIY - How to decide?



## EngineerDude (Jan 28, 2007)

Something I've thought about many times reading these forums. Toss-up between posting here or in Homeowner Help forum, seemed more appropriate here.

Tree care activities are often dangerous. Nowhere is this more evident than in this forum. Some of these accidents involve non-pro's doing TD's and other activities for which they're not properly capable (equipment and/or training/understanding and/or experience and/or "preparation/execution"), whereas sometimes it involves "pro's" (i.e. guys in the tree-care business, whether or not they're certified, etc.).

Compared to non-pro's, intuitively pro's make far fewer errors leading to accidents on a percentage of work basis, and intuitively the errors that pro's do make are far less frequently due to issues of equipment. Not sure how to assess pro errors as these might relate to training/understanding, experience, and preparation/execution, this last item relating to when the guy knows how to do it right, but then because of being in a hurry or similar, the execution isn't good.

So, given that anyone can make a mistake with serious consequences, and given the goal of not having to deal with such consequences, and given that some tasks require more skill, experience, etc. than others, and that the consequences of these errors are more serious under some situations than in others, how exactly does one decide whether to hire a pro or to DIY? I'm really looking for *specifics *here. There's probably some number of tough questions that could help a non-pro decide if he was qualified for a given task or not. What are these questions?


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## Haywire Haywood (Jan 28, 2007)

#1 question for me is: If this tree goes the wrong way, what will it hit?

#2 is a gut check... do I get a warm fuzzy when I think about it. 

The husband of one of my wife's friends wanted me to help him take down a 4' dbh Sycamore in his front yard. If it went the wrong way, it would either hit his house or block the road, possibly causing a traffic accident. We drove by and had a look and I passed on the news thru the wives that I wasn't interested. He apparently got it down without incident.

Naturally if there is any climbing with power tools to do, it's automatically a no-no for me.

Ian


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## techdave (Jan 29, 2007)

*Looking for decision matrix on sfety, or just factors to look for pitfalls?*

Hi ED, i am a 25 years experienced Lawn and Garden equipment tech with a Bachelors in Mech Engr and 12 years experience doing trail maintenance including bucking up to 5 foot diameter hardwoods/softwoods on 50 degree slopes and running all the tools up to a mini dozer. I also fall (about to a b level but not certified) and do some chainsaw milling. 

I do not know as much about how to as these fallers and buckers and arborists aroudn here but I got some insight into the equipment, the safety mindset and culture, and how to teach others to worksafe/besafe. 

I train repair techs and do safety meetings for trailworkers soemtimes. I do not think the decison lends itself to a matrix or anything like that, as the factors ar not all reduceable or even un-intuitive. But I see some common ideas teachabole to all that can really cut accidents.

But when deciding about a procedure/method/technique/typs of job you (any non pro)have never done before , here some rules and some factors to consider.

First three big rules. 1--When in doubt dont

2--If you dont have fast access to 911 dont 

3--If you cant pay potent. damage, dont

Factors to consider, be it felling or bucking or trimming

1--Can I name the common erors/accidents/injuries associated with this technique? EXample--felling heavy leaner is the job. If I cant teach what a barber chair is and how to avoid it by using a technique like plunge cuting the back cut and leaving a release strap and if I cant anticipate and prevent pushback or kickback on the plunge cut then I shouldnt fall that big old heavy leaner.

2--In my push to save money/help a friend/expand mycapabilities, etc have I taken on a job for which i lack the proper equipment including PPE
Using the leaner example, if I was cuting a moderate leaner the regular way without a very sharp and fst saw for the size fo the cut I increse the rsik of barber chair.

3--can explain what layers of safety stand between me and possible injury or property damage. leaner example, PPE, good escape route, not fellng uphill if I can help it, no crown interlock, good safe zone to escape to, landing zone clear of people and stuff that could causee unwatned breakage to timber.

Amateurs bucking often do stupid and dnagerous things cuz they ar ignorant of the danger or how to buck properly! They often work needlessly frontehdanger side, get pinched bars, and do not look and around for thigs like spring poles and overhead 'makers tht could come down from teh bucking vibrations.

Of course any area of power equipmetn use is dangerous, but he height and mass of trees makes them lots more lethal to mess with than say routine suburban mowing opertions.

Dont knwo if this helps, if not write back lets discuss it more!





.


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## techdave (Jan 29, 2007)

*Looking for decision matrix on sfety, or just factors to look for pitfalls?*

Hi ED, i am a 25 years experienced Lawn and Garden equipment tech with a Bachelors in Mech Engr and 12 years experience doing trail maintenance including bucking up to 5 foot diameter hardwoods/softwoods on 50 degree slopes and running all the tools up to a mini dozer. I also fall (about to a b level but not certified) and do some chainsaw milling. 

I do not know as much about how to as these fallers and buckers and arborists aroudn here but I got some insight into the equipment, the safety mindset and culture, and how to teach others to worksafe/besafe. 

I train repair techs and do safety meetings for trailworkers soemtimes. I do not think the decison lends itself to a matrix or anything like that, as the factors ar not all reduceable or even un-intuitive. But I see some common ideas teachabole to all that can really cut accidents.

But when deciding about a procedure/method/technique/typs of job you (any non pro)have never done before , here some rules and some factors to consider.

First three big rules. 1--When in doubt dont

2--If you dont have fast access to 911 dont 

3--If you cant pay potent. damage, dont

Factors to consider, be it felling or bucking or trimming

1--Can I name the common erors/accidents/injuries associated with this technique? EXample--felling heavy leaner is the job. If I cant teach what a barber chair is and how to avoid it by using a technique like plunge cuting the back cut and leaving a release strap and if I cant anticipate and prevent pushback or kickback on the plunge cut then I shouldnt fall that big old heavy leaner.

2--In my push to save money/help a friend/expand mycapabilities, etc have I taken on a job for which i lack the proper equipment including PPE
Using the leaner example, if I was cuting a moderate leaner the regular way without a very sharp and fst saw for the size fo the cut I increse the rsik of barber chair.

3--can explain what layers of safety stand between me and possible injury or property damage. leaner example, PPE, good escape route, not fellng uphill if I can help it, no crown interlock, good safe zone to escape to, landing zone clear of people and stuff that could causee unwatned breakage to timber.

Amateurs bucking often do stupid and dnagerous things cuz they ar ignorant of the danger or how to buck properly! They often work needlessly frontehdanger side, get pinched bars, and do not look and around for thigs like spring poles and overhead 'makers tht could come down from teh bucking vibrations.

Of course any area of power equipmetn use is dangerous, but he height and mass of trees makes them lots more lethal to mess with than say routine suburban mowing opertions.

Dont knwo if this helps, if not write back lets discuss it more!





.


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## rxe (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm not a pro, but I have been using chainsaws for 20 years, and have 150 acres of mixed pine that I look after. Simple rules:

1) If I have to go up a ladder or climb a tree with a chainsaw, then it is a job for a pro, unless it is a truly trivial cut (i.e. twigs < 1" diameter). There's too much to go wrong (ladder, saw, branches), and it isn't worth screwing up.

2) If there is a chance that the tree will hit something important, then again it is a pro's job. They have insurance for just that reason! 

I generally get a pro in to drop inconvenient trees/branches to the ground, and I take over from there. 

In the forest, I'll deal with pretty much anything. Take it slowly and carefully, and stop cutting when you feel tired...

Edit - unless I have all the PPE, then I don't cut. Helmet, muffs, gloves, trousers, boots. Learned that lesson a while ago, and still have the (small) scar.


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## Blinky (Jan 29, 2007)

You might try contacting Treeseer about risk assessment. High risk trees have potential high value targets and should probably be handled by insured professionals.

Falling seems very predictable and most of the time it is, but sometimes the tree just doesn't want to act right... and you can't tell that by looking at it.

It would be very interesting to see a design matrix or decision tree to assess risk and determine the level of risk for a given situation. Sounds really complex though. Good luck.


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## Ianab (Jan 29, 2007)

The problem I see is that the person making the decision will probably not have the knowledge to make it properly. 

If they had the knowledge to properly asses the tree, then they would have to practically be a Pro. You cant expect someone to recognise hazards when they dont even know they exist. OK some are obvious (power lines) but others like rotten hearts and barberchairing trunks are not. How many 'average' members of the public can even estimate the height of a tree. Easy enough when you know how and have an axe handle the right length, but even easier to drop the tree on a fence or through power lines. 

I cut a few trees, but I know enough to leave some alone because I dont have the equipment or skills to fell them safely. While I'm not a trained arborist or logger I like to think I have a lot better knowledge of these things than the average homeowner. More importantly I know enough to know what I CANT do 

Cheers

Ian


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## lxt (Jan 29, 2007)

Pro or DIY,

nowadays everybodies a pro!! & anyone who would claim to be a DIY probably wouldnt get much work!! at least not where I live. Any one considering a DIY for any type of involved work is intellectually bankrupt!! Commonsense needs to take place & specifics are too numerous to mention tree work is not a saturday morning home show!! screw up the drywall, you can patch it, screw up in tree work!!= injury,death,damage,etc....

ahh whatta rush...........................LXT


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## EngineerDude (Jan 29, 2007)

The idea for this thread was loosely inspired by Tom Dunlap's efforts (elsewhere) to define a list of minimum equipment for a climber. Seems to me his thought was to enlist the thoughts of lots of knowledgeable guys to put together a useful tool. Nice idea, and it seems like this is in line with the concept of these forums.

As I view the AS site, it seems that one of the goals is to keep issues from transferring from the Homeowner Helper forum to this Injuries and Fatalities forum.

Putting these two thoughts together, my idea here was that it might be possible to create a standard list of questions that a homeowner should answer whenever he's considering whether to DIY or hire a tree guy. Same questions every time, so *all* homeowners get a solid tool to help them decide; this in lieu of the "luck of the draw", a varying response depending on who's logging in, who takes time to respond, his mood at the moment, etc.

Of course there's no way these questions could be all that's ever required. Rather, they would represent just the first cut at resolving the issue of how to proceed. I'd think that in most cases where the homeowner is still inclined to give it a go, the next step would involve pictures, and some less standard, more interactive discussion.

Still, if this approach resolves even a moderate percentage of questions, it's probably an effective tool. And it might save answering the same old questions and dancing the same old dance over and over, and it might even result in more business for the tree guys.

Does it make sense?


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## Ianab (Jan 29, 2007)

I guess you have to start with a list of the possible complication and then see if they apply?

Surrounding objects - houses, fences, power lines, other trees vs clear space?

The lean of the tree vs desired direction of fall. Excessive lean also a hazard?

Condition of the tree, healthy, part rotten or dead. Dead or broken branches overhead?

Size of the tree vs equipment vs space to fell it?

Is there climbing needed to take out the tree in pieces?

Experience of the cutter?

Those are just the things I can think of from the top of my head, but all have to be thrown into the mix to decide if it's a straight foward takedown, or something needing more expertise than I have. The kind of thing a Pro would look at before deciding if he can just drop the tree or if he needs to break out the climbing gear or call a crane. It's usually a combination of hazards that makes it a pro job. 

Not recognising the hazards is what gets the DIY types into trouble. :monkey: 

Cheers

Ian

P.S. I would also say as a general rule, if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it. But pointing out the potential hazards might convice someone NOT to get in over their head.


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## OTG BOSTON (Jan 30, 2007)

*If I may be so bold.................*

If my memeory serves me correctly YOU were one of these DIY types E.D. 

I would caution against trying to come up with a universal 'checklist' for every tom-****-and-harry. Most who think they can do everything, especially something as easy and menial as removing a tree, will attempt it without much research. Those that do do the research will get a false sense of security from it.

I have had to bail out more than a few people who 'thought' they knew what they were doing. The most recent case being my wifes cousin, oddly enough we is also an engineer..........................:hmm3grin2orange: 

I like the concept ED I'll keep checking in here to see how it goes, I may even add to it if I can come up with something useful!:notrolls2:


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## Dadatwins (Jan 30, 2007)

One of the biggest problems with trying to come up a universal checklist regarding anything to do with treework are the variables involved. Every tree is different, species, terrain, wind, soil conditions all variables that cannot be written into a protocol. Someone building a road can take measurements and order the exact amount of material needed for the job. A contractor putting up a building works from a blueprint that lists exact measurements of every steel beam being installed. Bricks and cement blocks are a fixed measurement and a contractor knows exactly how many are needed to build a wall. Trees are living organism with almost infinite growth habits and different characteristics for each of the thousands of species. You can plant 2 acorns from the same oak tree and have 2 completely different trees in 100 years depending on location. Just as every person has different charactistics that make us all unique, every living tree has its own unique features that separate them from each other. 
Treework is a lot like a chess game, anyone can start the game but the end result is what matters.


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## EngineerDude (Jan 30, 2007)

OTG BOSTON said:


> If my memeory serves me correctly YOU were one of these DIY types E.D.



You're right, I *was*, and so I guess this will be just a minor correction, I'm happy to report that I still *am*...



OTG BOSTON said:


> I would caution against trying to come up with a universal 'checklist' for every tom-****-and-harry. Most who think they can do everything, especially something as easy and menial as removing a tree, will attempt it without much research.



Not sure I agree that "*Most*" is the right term when the task includes climbing and chainsaw work in a tree.



OTG BOSTON said:


> Those that do do the research will get a false sense of security from it.



I'd argue that it's "*Some *that do do the research will get a false sense of security from it." But this isn't about research, but about an assessment of skills for the task at hand.

Overall, I hear you. As you'll undoubtedly also recall, when the TD's on my aspen and maple were complete, I came on this site and admitted that they were the most physically demanding and, at times, scary things I've done in a long time. And this was after having done a ton of research and other preparation. (Request to all, please let's not revisit the discussion of the art vs the science, etc. I freely admit I lacked experience.) This feeds into my thinking on this qualification procedure. Especially if it's to includes climbing and the homeowner is considering tree work with a chainsaw, he needs to be made to reckon with the fact that it's *a lot* harder and potentially *a lot more* dangerous than it looks. Bottom line, as contradictory as this may seem, I'm actually thinking of this tool more as a deterrent then as a simple checklist. Hearing feedback "don't do it, hire a pro" strikes me as not *nearly *as effective as getting the guy considering doing it to really think through it and answer tough introspective questions regarding his probability of success and his risks of failure, and the ole' benefit/risk ratio.



OTG BOSTON said:


> I have had to bail out more than a few people who 'thought' they knew what they were doing. The most recent case being my wifes cousin, oddly enough we is also an engineer..........................:hmm3grin2orange:



Umm, "some guys are more capable than others" is at least one component of this. Can't make assumptions about engineers any more so than about tree guys or any other profession.



OTG BOSTON said:


> I like the concept ED I'll keep checking in here to see how it goes, I may even add to it if I can come up with something useful!:notrolls2:



Appreciate your keeping an open mind on this. Remember, I'm considering this as the first cut, separate the wheat from the chaff kind of thing. Further review required for those who pass the first cut.


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## EngineerDude (Jan 30, 2007)

Dadatwins said:


> One of the biggest problems with trying to come up a universal checklist regarding anything to do with treework are the variables involved. Every tree is different, species, terrain, wind, soil conditions all variables that cannot be written into a protocol.



Understood. I'm envisioning this not as some canned protocol, but rather as a tool for getting across to the potential DIY guy how tough this really is, and for helping him think past his ego, etc., and which leads him to understand that his idea may be unrealistic (given his skillset) and that the risks may far outweigh the benefits, and which does all of this more effectively than a chorus of statements "hire a pro", which hopefully you'll agree isn't going to dissuade most guys who think they can do it. And which at least forces him to think it completely through rather than just running out and doing it. 



Dadatwins said:


> Treework is a lot like a chess game, anyone can start the game but the end result is what matters.



Well put. And none of it matters if you get killed doing it.


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## okietreedude1 (Jan 30, 2007)

I think for some homeowners, its not that they cant do it, its just that they dont want to do it. Ive taken down bradford pears in front yards w/ nothting to hit for guys that own pickups and trailers. Its not that he couldnt have done it, he didnt want to. It may have been 1)doesnt own saw, 2) doesnt have time, 3) noteriety (I had a tree cut down and I had money to pay for it) 4) Laziness. 

Its kind of like lawn services. Why are they in business? Because people dont want to take the time anymore to diy.

1) Location of tree and obsticles around it (ie: house, fence, POWERLINES!, etc.)
2) Size of tree
3) Equipment owned or lack of (bucket truck, chainsaw, trailer, dump site)


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## okietreedude1 (Jan 30, 2007)

OH, I forgot somethings:

As for the homeowner checklist of what to look for in a pro:

1) INSURANCE!!! Liability and work comp. Dont just take their word for it, ask for verification from the Ins company. Work comp should come from the state. Auto policies DONT COUNT. If they state 'your homeowners will cover damage' FIND SOMEONE ELSE - quickly

2) equipment. If all they have is a truck/trailer, not to say they arent qualified, but it might make you wonder how much experience they really have. Dont be afraid to ask.

3) PPE. If they start up a ladder w/ no harness, hardhat, glasses, etc., chase them off. A reputable company that has #1 should also have this.

4) references. Ask for some.

5) certification. Although not a gaurantee in experience or quality, but thereto, its a start. ISA certification has a 3 yr minimum work experience requirement before they can test.


Go to the ISA website and download 'how to hire an arborist'. It has a good list of things as well.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jan 31, 2007)

okietreedude1 said:


> OH, I forgot somethings:
> 
> As for the homeowner checklist of what to look for in a pro:
> 
> ...




Liability insurance is something you should check for. Work Comp, OTOH, is a function of larger companies with regular employees. Many professional, reliable companies are one or two man operations that are self-insured for hospitalization and disability. They will still give you excellent, dependable service although they carry no WC.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of tree companies operate with only a truck and trailer. This is a non-issue and should not make you the least bit worried about the experience a given company may or may not have. Keep in mind that there are large companies who may send out a crew in their fancy trucks, towing a large chipper and other equipment that will impress you. What you may not know is that the crew is just off the lot of a local Home Depot and the only guy who knows what he's doing may be the fellow who sits in the truck taking bid calls and making appointments. As it was said in reference to other items, don't be afraid to ask about all workers who show up.

The best advice this poster gave was to check references. Going further: It is a good idea to ask the company for the names and dates of the last three jobs they did. In that way, you will filter out the favorite customers who will always have a glowing report for you when you call.


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