# Dutchman 101



## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 27, 2009)

*DUTCHMAN: Tree falling cut that alters the function of the "normal" notch/hinge.*

Some believe a dutchman adds nothing to a properly executed notch and hinge. Apparently, it is also believed some 'difficult' trees will not lay as desired with normal cuts, so additional cuts are sometimes added. Several govermental authorities in several countries refer to these additional cuts as; unacceptable, dangerous, illegal, even deadly.

However, dutchman cuts persist. And, much folklore exists about how to solve difficult tree falling with this or that dutchman. There appears to be little or no written guidance about how to safely use dutchman cuts. Due to governmental and insurance control, the only formal guidance about dutchman cuts is: DON'T DO ANY. 

It may well be true that no dutchman cut is safe. But, I believe and have found that *some* dutchman cuts actually make falling safer. It is my hope than the true AS experts will weigh in on this and establish this thread as a significant reference about the science and/or insanity of dutchman cuts - details about what works, what doesn't, how and *why*. 

All techniques cannot be suitable for all readers. *Some should never use any dutchman.* So please post detailed instructions, pictures and *risk assessment*. I hope to learn some new dutchman cuts and how to better plan my own to improve productivity and which techniques are, truely, too risky.


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## 056 kid (Sep 27, 2009)

It's really a matter of watching your tree and cutting in accordance with what the tree is doing. there are so many variations of the dutchman that it hard to put into text the correct application for a particular situation.

Say for instance, the kirf dutchman, not for swinging but to get the tree off the stump as soon as it has started to commit, good imo for rolling trees through standing timber, extremely dangerous as well.

one of the trickiest imo is the step or block dutchman, and the trick is in where to place the block. I have used two blocks to really rotate the stem alot, and i have had trees stall out completely with just one block that I was sure would do the job. 

getting good with swing cuts takes alot of time.

Knowing where to take wood is very important as well
you really need to get good at judging lean before you even consider such activities.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 28, 2009)

Just as we look for the control side backfield of hinge for tension control to steer; and not make both sides of the hinge generically the same (like a tapered hinge is different on either side); unless the side loading is the same (balanced load/ o side lean). To really understand hinging control we should then equal and oppositely see how on the lean side of face(as opposed to control/non-lean side of hinge), the control achieved by compression forces. So we should not just look at machining to this area as genericially the same across either if any sidelean! We should see that adjustmeant can take place here too.

Now, that isn't to say that we should use it necessarily; but mostly; be aware that these are simple machines (hinge and face machines) that control a lot of force, with simple commands. So, most of these lessons, for most seen situations are used for how not to make a dutchman by accident (the most prevalent kind); and thereby accidentally invoke these powers/ commands to the loaded machine(of tree falling on hinge/face).

As a tapered hinge is a pull to control sidelean from the opposite side/ pull against lean towards center face; a dutchman is a push in face on the side of lean towards the center face.

MTL Dutch push in side of face


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## Bermie (Sep 28, 2009)

DO a search on dutchman, there was a LOT of discussion a while back, try the chainsaw forum as well, I think thats where it got discussed...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 28, 2009)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> ...
> 
> MTL Dutch push in side of face



Your FlashPlayer animation is an amazing piece of work and much appreciated. It must have taken a LOT of time.

I'd be interested in your opinions about Tim Ards video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFTOlmCijjs&feature=related
He guns his 'normal' cuts to right of the intended lay to compensate for side lean. Is that just a different technique achieving the same result as a tappered hinge or a dutch cut?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 29, 2009)

*Dutchman resigns*



Bermie said:


> *DO a search on dutchman*, there was a LOT of discussion a while back, try the chainsaw forum as well, I think thats where it got discussed...



OK - done that!!! I searched and opened every thread with the word "dutchman" - back 5 years. Searched every one of those for the word "swing". Read every post about about "Swing Dutchmans" ... know less now than when I started. Found A LOT of non-sense, A LOT of controversy, A LOT of SpyderSpeak (I'm not smart enough to understand more than half of that!!! - murphy4trees had it right a few years back, the man's "ahead of his time"). To be fair I did find a couple of tricks I hadn't tried. However, 20+ years, thousands of trees, can drop any tree 90 degrees either side of lean and never had a barberchair ... I should count myself lucky ... but ... stick a fork in me I'm done.


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## 056 kid (Sep 29, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> OK - done that!!! I searched and opened every thread with the word "dutchman" - back 5 years. Searched every one of those for the word "swing". Read every post about about "Swing Dutchmans" ... know less now than when I started. Found A LOT of non-sense, A LOT of controversy, A LOT of SpyderSpeak (I'm not smart enough to understand more than half of that!!! - murphy4trees had it right a few years back, the man's "ahead of his time"). To be fair I did find a couple of tricks I hadn't tried. However, 20+ years, thousands of trees, can drop any tree 90 degrees either side of lean and never had a barberchair ... I should count myself lucky ... but ... stick a fork in me I'm done.



20 years & no barberchair?

HOLY CHIT!!

What are you cutting, shrubs?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 29, 2009)

056 kid said:


> 20 years & no barberchair?
> 
> HOLY CHIT!!
> 
> What are you cutting, shrubs?



Ain't NOTHING like luck!!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 29, 2009)

One of the quirks of this is that, the power that is set against you (weight, sidelean, length etc.) are now allies for you. So, this works best on longer, harder, sideleans. Without this, you don't get the power back out.

For, the harder the leveraged sidelean, the more compression on that side, and the more tension on the opposing side. Also, the more breadth across the stump, the more control-because this places a greater leveraged distance between the compression and tension parts, that give tourque ; that steer her around.

A sidelean is one sidewards to the desired travel; in this definition. So, in sweeping a limb out horizontally from over a roof, is a hard sidelean, because the desired direction is across, and the pull of gravity is down. So, the model can be turned on it's side, and plot for downwards compression and upwards tension... This can be a lot safer to practice.. and another way to view,many more times a day.

These same forces are all around us everyday in all different ways; treemen just push them to higher loading to witness mare magnified what is going on! Once again, especially in felling; L-earning dutchmans is best for what not to do/accidentally invoke/let happen; why to precisely machine the faces squarely, and also what can happen if wood in the 'active' quadrants is rotted/won't stand to compression or dry -won't give/take tension forces.

i tried to get Tim Ard's stuff long ago, when he first started i think. Something didn't take my card, or paypal, ck etc. and i never pursued it more. But, i did pour over all his explanations, talked to peoples from his seminar and those that bought the disk he was selling, read posts and explanations, tried some things etc. i always think in terms of serving the tree towards center face, like it tries to self compensate to do so itself. Tim Ard (it seems to me) takes the opposite approach and tries to calculate where the tree 'fails to' (?) instead. So, separate strategy from what i can gather; but whatever worx... Though, that model, doesn't seem to work as well turned on it's side, in throwing/rigging a limb across horizontally.

i think the biggest help in understanding these things is to think of stump in quadrants. Ruling out backlean, the intersection of the 2 lines making the quadrants, would be on the forward part of the hinge fiber, at the point of lean (the lean weight/leverage being the empowering force of all the rest of the mechanics). Mechanics of compression or tension are on a diagonal across from the front lean side square, to the rear contra-lean side. So, is actually more 'inline' to the lean, on this diagonal across from sidelean. The other quadrants, have less power; so like in a tapered hinge, we 'schedule' more/earlier tension/ pull towards gunned face in that rear quadrant opposite the sidelean; forsaking the other rear quadrant more. Same as, only reversed; with dutchmans strategies; we schedule more/earlier compression / push towards gunned face in the quadrant front of the lean.

Now, the compression/pushes don't have to be connected; but the tensioned/pulls do. Also, the 'lean' (the empowering force) changes with the travel, so model has to move with that... These things happen Naturally - we just seek to take advantage and maximize them!! "Nature to be commanded..."


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 30, 2009)

056 kid said:


> 20 years & no barberchair?
> 
> HOLY CHIT!!
> 
> What are you cutting, shrubs?





SINGLE-JACK said:


> Ain't NOTHING like luck!!!



Sorry, my reply was flippant. The real *luck *was many good teachers - seeing enough BC examples of what not to do. 

Being a belt & suspenders type, mostly working alone, can't afford risks, e.g.: plunge cut anything over 12 DBH + always wedge light back leaners + always rig pull/hold lines on heavy leaners = 0 BC's. 

Always use groundies when climbing & rigging risky removals. Made my share of mistakes but at the end of every harvest the only thing laying on the ground was trees.

*Still, it would be so nice to learn how to make a tree change fall direction in mid-fall - that'd be cool!!!*


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## 056 kid (Sep 30, 2009)

with so many variables at hand & spending on average 7 to 8 hours in the woods daily I have seen a few.

Broke my left hand by standing next to a small barberchaired white oak,(i was pooped @ the end of the day) the tree was about eye level and i was looking away from it.

then it feels like someone smashes my hand with a sledge hammer. The tree rolled off the remaning stump & just grased my hand and messed up my chain brake, I was holding my saw in my left hand Could have dome more.


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## Burvol (Sep 30, 2009)

056 kid said:


> 20 years & no barberchair?
> 
> HOLY CHIT!!
> 
> What are you cutting, shrubs?



It's called open your face up and saw the sucker off with a saw that can handle the timber


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## matt9923 (Sep 30, 2009)

056 kid said:


> with so many variables at hand & spending on average 7 to 8 hours in the woods daily I have seen a few.
> 
> Broke my left hand by standing next to a small barberchaired white oak,(i was pooped @ the end of the day) the tree was about eye level and i was looking away from it.
> 
> then it feels like someone smashes my hand with a sledge hammer. The tree rolled off the remaning stump & just grased my hand and messed up my chain brake, I was holding my saw in my left hand Could have dome more.



aren't you the one who like's to "chill" at the stump?


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## matt9923 (Sep 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> It's called open your face up and saw the sucker off with a saw that can handle the timber



Iv seen them but never had one happen to me.


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## RRSsawshop (Sep 30, 2009)

Tarzantrees and Forestyworks are good ones to ask questoins to check out the logging forum...opcorn:


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## pdqdl (Sep 30, 2009)

056 kid said:


> 20 years & no barberchair?
> 
> HOLY CHIT!!
> 
> What are you cutting, shrubs?



I have never had a tree barber-chair. I did have a 5" branch do that to me once, about 15' off the ground, only a short time after reading Beranek's _Fundamentals of Tree Work_ for the first time. When I saw how that happened, I thought, "WOW! That was neat. I'll have to not do that ever again!" (I top cut a horizontal silver maple branch, anticipating a slow descent. It didn't turn out that way)

My techniques for sending down trees have never included baby/shallow face cuts on head leaners, nor pulling trees over with massive force. These are the usual causes of barber chair. Since I have never practiced doing them, I suppose I could be wrong...

I never even heard of barber-chair until long after I (foolishly) considered myself pretty experienced. I guess I am pretty lucky, because I am almost entirely self-educated in the tree business, having never worked for a tree service. Understanding the physics of cutting a tree down is probably why I have had such good luck.

So yes. There are probably lots of guys that have never had a barber-chair happen to them.


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

thats crazy...

I would say lots of guys that havent cut that much have never had a tree start to go alittle early due to a sudden gust of wind, or vines that are pulling on it, or just a messed up chain...


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## pdqdl (Oct 1, 2009)

What are you saying? That with your vast experience you have frequent problems with Barber-chair? Why do you think that Barber chair is a common experience only among experienced tree fellers?

I haven't ever broken ANY bones while doing tree work, either. I suppose that makes me a noobie too? You really shouldn't impune the experience of other workers based on their lack of failures and near fatal mistakes. If that is how you score your experience, you are doing it all wrong.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 1, 2009)

Even an open/wide face can give barberchair if the wide face has a dutchman inside of it on accident (making it a narrow face actually). This is from one of the face cuts bypassing the other, this effect is mostly seen when the lower/horizontal cut goes beyond the upper/slanted cut.

Douglas Dent's felling bible "Professional Timber Falling A Procedural Approach"; speaks of dutchmans etc.


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## pdqdl (Oct 1, 2009)

Depth of face cut determines probability of Barber chair. Any form of loading, whether wind, gravity, or tow-line in the direction of fall increases that probability. When the side loading creates sheer forces in the trunk greater than the resistance of the trunk to splitting...you have a big problem.

If the tree is trying to fall in the direction of fall, make a face cut to at least 50% of the diameter of the tree. There is almost no way to get B-C now.

Barber chair is a modern phenomenon that did not exist in the days of axes-only timber felling. Wedges do not work in the wide kerfs created by axe cuts, so the technique used by the old timers to get the tree to fall in the desired direction is to remove the support out from under the side you desire the tree to fall. Essentially, they kept chopping on the side they wanted the tree to fall towards.

This technique never barber chairs, but it is a great deal trickier to learn, because the open faces and deep wedge cuts created by axes do not prevent a tree from setting back in the wrong direction should wind or mistaken judgment send it that way. The modern method of only face cutting a teeny little face cut and then wedging the tree over from the back-cut prevents most of the risk of the tree going the wrong direction, but it also creates the risk of barber chair. In their handbook on tree work, ISA (in my opinion) erroneously advises to never cut the face deeper than 1/3rd of the tree diameter; advice that I strongly disagree with.

I have some comments on the shear-resistance of trees too. I have never seen this addressed in any book or technical resource, but I believe that trees have greater resistance to splitting in some directions, and less resistance in others. The natural loading on a tree in a heavy wind creates both lifting forces on the windward side of the trunk, and compression forces on the other side (the "Lee" side, if you are a sailor). When a barber chair condition is created in a tree by putting a deep back cut into the trunk, the loading during the cut shifts the lifting forces into the wood in a force and direction where it has grown for many years resisting the strain of compression. So the tree has never developed the natural resistance to splitting in that particular direction, and...it splits!

I have always used the gravity method of sending trees over, or ropes where necessary, so barber chair has not ever been a problem for me.


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## Giel (Oct 1, 2009)

On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.

I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.

Have always used this technique and those few occasions (2 in 13 yrs) where a barberchair did occur, it was in trees that only had sapwood left, no core.

This whole business of dutchmen cuts seems unnecessarily risky to me. Undermining hingewood is a big nono in my book


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## pdqdl (Oct 1, 2009)

What exactly would be a "sap wood cut" ? Are you referring to cutting the sides off the hinge? I think some people call that "giving it ears".

BTW: 0 barber chairs in 27 years. Deeper notches. Wider hinges. Cut the support out from under the head leaners by removing much of the compression wood. No boring necessary unless you miss your cut. Boring is generally for saving timber value, not getting the tree down safely. Others will disagree, but it works for me.


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> What exactly would be a "sap wood cut" ? Are you referring to cutting the sides off the hinge? I think some people call that "giving it ears".
> 
> BTW: 0 barber chairs in 27 years. Deeper notches. Wider hinges. Cut the support out from under the head leaners by removing much of the compression wood. No boring necessary unless you miss your cut. Boring is generally for saving timber value, not getting the tree down safely. Others will disagree, but it works for me.



27years of tree service & falling timber arent the same...


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## smokechase II (Oct 1, 2009)

*Barber Chairs and heart wood*

*"On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.

I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.

Have always used this technique and those few occasions (2 in 13 yrs) where a barberchair did occur, it was in trees that only had sapwood left, no core."*

Some thoughts.
In the NW for generations it has been taught that if you're going to do your back-cut - from the back - on a tree with BC risk do a triangle set-up that nips the 'corners' too. Then with speed and power stay with the cut even though she might be a poppin'. 
More commonly, on the high risk 'chairs its bore the back now.
Occasionally, its do a face center, nip the corners and bore any back-cuts.

I've only had a couple 'chairs where I was cutting 6" ish LP (Snow bend - over 45 degrees) very slowly to try and create a BarberChair. Very safe set-up with other trees right there that I was protected by. Just studying. Pretty minor actually.

One of the reason for so very few 'chairs is my world of falling is almost exclusively dead/working on being dead/hazard trees on fires etc. Many are rotten in the center. I can't find any instances of a center rotten tree barber chairing on prior requests here. Giel, sounds like you've had that happen twice.

One of the reasons I've felt that I was 'chair free was what an old cutter explained to me. *"You break up the continuity of the hinge you cut the chance of a vertical split."* 
Also explained to me was the concept of the smallest hinge possible immediately prior to it starting over reduces the risk of a BC.

In a large green tree with a truly heavy lean one cannot do a deep face as specified by *pdqdl - deeper notches*. The bar pinches in a face too deep on a heavy leaner.

Lets say one has put in a face as deep as a heavy leaner allows. Then you bore in about the middle of the back-cut and cut toward the hinge till the bar starts feeling pinched. Problem, too much hinge left on this very heavy leaner. Solution should have been to make a face center bore and also nip the corners prior to boring the back. (Full disclosure: I've only done this twice - also with a chain wrap.) (I was really glad I did.)(One of these trees I went off to the side for a good pee before any cutting - When I released the back the ground below me shook too and I moved back about 10 years in time based on my exit speed.)

- - - - - - - - -

Part of the reason I'm concerned about not removing center hinge wood too is how Larch behave. Larix Occidentalis ; Western Larch aka Tamarack in the northern mid-west. These trees were used for split rail fences throughout the west by the pioneers. Because they could easily split fence lengths when dry. (The wood also resists rot very very well.) 
A tree species that splits well, in the condition (dry) where it splits the best, has to be taken more seriously. No brainer there.

{Also:
Larch are tall (over 100' is common in trees 18" diameter) and one of the commonly *not* discussed factors in barber chair risk is the height of a tree. The taller a tree is the more leverage it has. Greater force on the hinge area means greater risk of a 'chair. This greater force can be sponsored by wind, heavy green tree weight, strong lean, other tree leaning into, excessive wedging etc. But don't forget tree height.}

Back to cutting a dead larch. The sapwood is dried out and behaves like the more brittle less flexible heartwood in a green tree. Yet these things really want to BC. That is the nature of the wood. (Overall, I would suggest that sapwood - heartwood arguments are very very minor in dead wood that has had time to dry.)

I would not focus on any one size fits all cutting analysis especially with regard to wood characteristics. 
Suggestion: No one should try for a specific face or hinge size from tree to tree or species to species.

Stay flexible : but don't go limp.


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## pdqdl (Oct 1, 2009)

Yep. You sound like you have it all figured out. No argument from me.



smokechase II said:


> ...
> In a large green tree with a truly heavy lean one cannot do a deep face as specified by *pdqdl - deeper notches*. The bar pinches in a face too deep on a heavy leaner.
> 
> ...



True. I stop just short of that point, finish the wedge, and proceed to back cut. When the gap on the initial cut starts to close, it's time to stop. I have been known to shave the face cut deeper just to get a bit more depth. If you can get to the 1/2 diameter, that is enough.

The really tall thin trees like Larch just don't happen in our area. About the only trees that tall around here are cottonwoods, and they are not likely to be a problem for BC.


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

Cutting in stands where trees are tall, very clear,have considerable lean towards gravity(down hill), you are gonna get in trouble unless you are removing heart wood and or sawing one side off. busting logs is easily avoided when throwing the timber against its natural lean, Its when when you are going with the lean that things can get out of hand...


i have dealt with white oaks that would come apart unless allmost all the holding wood is severd before the face fully commits... A small time of year, sap, temperature clarity of the grain, how tall the timber is, it all plays a part...


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## pdqdl (Oct 1, 2009)

To my way of thinking, there are only two reasons to cut down a tree.

1. You want the tree for some purpose.
2. You don't want the tree...where it is currently located.

My tree removals always take the form of "don't want it there", so I never care about the condition of the log once it hits the ground. My tree felling procedures don't take into consideration the value of the log once I am done hacking on it. 

I certainly understand the different perspective of those fellers that want to keep the log in it's most marketable condition. I suspect you timber guys are more worried about ruining the timber than you are about getting the tree to the ground without risking a barber chair.


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

Well, they go hand in hand, any log that played lead in "barber chair" is no more good...

put a crack across the butt & 4 feet up, pretty much the same, put a small crack across the butt that you can fit a file in=bad.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 1, 2009)

i don't think a hard forward lean should get a deep face.

The face moves the pivot position back, thus granting even more lean to the forward lean; by virtue of the CG to the pivot angle, has now changed.

Different stiffness of species, heart, temperature, death etc. can make tree more prone to BC.

BC can spit upwards into the fattest part of log; so also, can a slower, more controlled fall; for the power of the braking is coming from stretching more fibre inside and grabbing more at the ground(from slower falling control by tree). The roots can also move and break pipes etc. underground from the roots grabbing at ground to brace against the falling forces.


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## smokechase II (Oct 1, 2009)

*face up*

*"The face moves the pivot position back, thus granting even more lean to the forward lean; by virtue of the CG to the pivot angle, has now changed."*

===========

I agree. Either too deep or too shallow a face or a face that closes too quickly can all be contributors to a BC.


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## Giel (Oct 2, 2009)

> Many are rotten in the center. I can't find any instances of a center rotten tree barber chairing on prior requests here. Giel, sounds like you've had that happen twice.



Both happened early on in my "career" and in both instances I wasn't switched on to bore cutting the back cut. Both were also heavy leaners (one poplar and one ash). 

Agree that once the wood is dead and dry the sapwood cuts (or ears as you call them) won't make much difference.



> I would not focus on any one size fits all cutting analysis especially with regard to wood characteristics.
> Suggestion: No one should try for a specific face or hinge size from tree to tree or species to species.



Right you are!

Would be good to get some videos of the different techniques discussed...I am going to try and shoot some on my next job

Cheers,


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## pdqdl (Oct 2, 2009)

Ahhh. We all seem to have come together in the end on this. 

TreeSpyder: as usual, your observations are correct, although I am inclined to press the limit on the depth of face cut. But you guys knew that to start with.

Does anyone know why a split trunk that flies up is called a barber chair? I can only imagine that it is related to getting a real close shave every now and then.


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## pdqdl (Oct 2, 2009)

*I did my own research.*

I was waiting for one of my computers to finish a lengthy task so I figured out why "barber chair" is so named: Apparently, it is called that because the stump and the remaining portion of wood left standing on the stump after the truck splits away resembled a barbers chair to some old timer. 

The name has apparently stuck ever since.

Now we need to figure out the origin of "Dutchman"...


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## Giel (Oct 2, 2009)

> Now we need to figure out the origin of "Dutchman"...



Was curious about that when I read first post...I' Dutch after all.

English is replete with expressions with Dutch in them. In (nearly) all cases the use of it does not reflect well on the one spoken to. Mostly used to denote sloppiness, greed, drunkenness, etc. My guess is that this use of "Dutch" originates from the Anglo-Dutch trade wars in the 17th century.

So why did this type of cut get the prefix "Dutch"? Because it was considered sloppy cutting by some? 

Cheers,


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## Giel (Oct 2, 2009)

Is it called Barberchair because you really need a new haircut after your skull has healed?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 2, 2009)

i think the name came from the way it can split; and fold forward as it also sits back; kinda like a recliner/ olde timey barber chair before getting a shave; like on the 3 Stooges!

Another factor for the BC/ any kind of splitting is also cutting too slow on the backcut. In fact anything that allows the pressure backwards against the falling/ increasing leverage loading of the spar falling forwards; to all get so great that it overrules the constitution of the spar can fracture spar like this.

Another factor of drier/stiffer/deader that is more prone to splitting it would seem; is that it can also logically have less elasticity where tension support is needed (on the opposite of lean ). Thus, loading even more the compression into the facing in the more 'brittle' wood..


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## 056 kid (Oct 3, 2009)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> i think the name came from the way it can split; and fold forward as it also sits back; kinda like a recliner/ olde timey barber chair before getting a shave; like on the 3 Stooges!
> 
> Another factor for the BC/ any kind of splitting is also cutting too slow on the backcut. In fact anything that allows the pressure backwards against the falling/ increasing leverage loading of the spar falling forwards; to all get so great that it overrules the constitution of the spar can fracture spar like this.
> 
> Another factor of drier/stiffer/deader that is more prone to splitting it would seem; is that it can also logically have less elasticity where tension support is needed (on the opposite of lean ). Thus, loading even more the compression into the facing in the more 'brittle' wood..



Brittle wood wont slab as easly as sappy heart wood...


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## John Ellison (Oct 3, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> *"On the topic of barberchairing: I was taught during training to always use a sap wood cut on both side of your facecut, specifically to avoid barberchairing. The theory goes that because of different structures of sap and core wood, different forces are generated when they hinge together. The sapwood cuts result in a corewood only hinge.
> 
> I do the heavy leaners in the same way, only then I bore cut what would normally be the end position of your back cut. Make the hinge the widht you want it to have (1/10 of diameter or so) and cut towards the back end (where you would normally start your backcut). Just before the tree drops, the woodfibres are loaded lengthwise, and in that direction they are incredibly strong.
> 
> ...



Good points SCII.
Comment about tree height is right on. Trees in this area are usually 60 to 70 ft. tall. The tallest ones are mostly less than 100 ft. I have seen stumps and cutting practices here in short timber where the faller would be weeded out in short order if the trees were twice as tall. Not saying that it could'nt happen but you are not near as likely to get a violent barberchair here like is possible in taller timber. There just isnt the leverage/power. The ones that do happen are more likely to be slow and mild.


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## Burvol (Oct 4, 2009)

John Ellison said:


> Good points SCII.
> Comment about tree height is right on. Trees in this area are usually 60 to 70 ft. tall. The tallest ones are mostly less than 100 ft. I have seen stumps and cutting practices here in short timber where the faller would be weeded out in short order if the trees were twice as tall. Not saying that it could'nt happen but you are not near as likely to get a violent barberchair here like is possible in taller timber. There just isnt the leverage/power. The ones that do happen are more likely to be slow and mild.



That's right. Taller wood is more prone to the chair. The wind is what gives the most trouble here. It always blows here. The only thing I have seen to fight the wind is to open your face up from top to bottom a little more and either pack a 390xp or a 660.


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## John Ellison (Oct 4, 2009)

Yep, and watch the top and get it on when its rockin in the right direction.


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## RRSsawshop (Oct 4, 2009)

Burvol said:


> That's right. Taller wood is more prone to the chair. The wind is what gives the most trouble here. It always blows here. The only thing I have seen to fight the wind is to open your face up from top to bottom a little more and either pack a 390xp or a 660.



:agree2: Wind is a big factor too!!! But what about a deep face cut,my grandpa always said "cut a deep face and you wont have any problems" I've been following that advice,but is it more prone to barberchair????They do go QUICK if too deep!!!!!!!!!!!By deep I mean 1/2 the diameter....


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