# Ever change prices mid-job?



## Groundman One (Jul 5, 2010)

We had a lovely little job this morning. Hot as hell here so we were going to hit this sweet three-hour job and knock off at noon. But while I'm gettting the gear out, my climber prices a tree for the guy that wasn't in the original estimate. Long story short, he priced a $300 tree at $100. I didn't find out until it was said and done and half-hour had gone by.

I was tempted to tell the guy, "Look, my climber made a mistake and that should have been a $300 tree, but since it was our mistake in pricing, I'm willing to do it for $200. So you still get a deal, and we don't take a beating on it."

But I didn't. We did the tree for the $100 and that was that. I think once, maybe twice since I've been with this company (1998) we changed prices mid-job, but not more than that. _(No written contracts. We're handshake kind of guys and most of our clients know us already.)_

I'm curious how others go about this sort of thing.


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## Matt Michael (Jul 5, 2010)

the only way I ever change a price is to charge less than what I told them


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 5, 2010)

I think that your your case your kinda screwed , since you know the customer and have a previous relationship with them take it as some good PR , but with a new customer or someone I don't particularly care for I will leave it open ended giving our hrly rate as a bench mark and if they persist with a concrete price than I shoot the high side


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## Groundman One (Jul 5, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> I think that your your case your kinda screwed , since you know the customer and have a previous relationship with them take it as some good PR , but with a new customer or someone I don't particularly care for I will leave it open ended giving our hrly rate as a bench mark and if they persist with a concrete price than I shoot the high side



Yeah, that about says it.

This doesn't happen often. Lots of times one of us will be high or low by $50 or so, but this was an obvious case of "Oops!" on my climber's part. And the guy did know us, he's a good customer, but not a great one. His property, though not big, is putting green perfect and we always spend more time at his place cleaning up than most places so I didn't feel too bad thinking about asking for more $$$. 

But he did ask us to take the wood once the tree was down. That wasn't part of the deal he made with my climber, so I told him it would be $75 more, just because. He balked, told me again what a great customer he was, and told me he refused hiring another crew that was cruising the street in favour of calling us back (that pizzed me off when he said that. It was low). I told him he was paying less for that tree than I would have charged my mother so "you are getting good service, sir". He shut up after that, and the job was longer, but uneventful - and hot.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 5, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Yeah, that about says it.
> 
> This doesn't happen often. Lots of times one of us will be high or low by $50 or so, but this was an obvious case of "Oops!" on my climber's part. And the guy did know us, he's a good customer, but not a great one. His property, though not big, is putting green perfect and we always spend more time at his place cleaning up than most places so I didn't feel too bad thinking about asking for more $$$.
> 
> But he did ask us to take the wood once the tree was down. That wasn't part of the deal he made with my climber, so I told him it would be $75 more, just because. He balked, told me again what a great customer he was, and told me he refused hiring another crew that was cruising the street in favour of calling us back (that pizzed me off when he said that. It was low). I told him he was paying less for that tree than I would have charged my mother so "you are getting good service, sir". He shut up after that, and the job was longer, but uneventful - and hot.



Yea today was a little sultry here as well we started at 6 and wrapped at 2, it was tough and we removed a black walnut tree and the saw dust burned my forearm and neck and left a horrible rash that burned like hell in the shower and I don't know why..


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## Groundman One (Jul 5, 2010)

treeclimber101 said:


> Yea today was a little sultry here as well we started at 6 and wrapped at 2, it was tough and we removed a black walnut tree and the saw dust burned my forearm and neck and left a horrible rash that burned like hell in the shower and I don't know why..



Weird. I've gotten burns (like chemical burns - :censored: painful) from carrying freshly peeled cedar logs, but not from anything else.

We don't have black walnut here. What's the wood like for heating or working?


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## tree md (Jul 5, 2010)

I get add ons quite frequently. Every now and then someone will change their mind on a tree and I'll have to adjust the price. Not really a big deal, I always have everything written down in black and white, itemized and carbon copied. I just add to or subtract whatever I need to.

You need to be on the same page with the people you work with though. No one on my team had better be giving estimates on trees. There can only be one chief. That needs to be established before you ever run into that situation.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 5, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Yeah, that about says it.
> 
> This doesn't happen often. Lots of times one of us will be high or low by $50 or so, but this was an obvious case of "Oops!" on my climber's part. And the guy did know us, he's a good customer, but not a great one. His property, though not big, is putting green perfect and we always spend more time at his place cleaning up than most places so I didn't feel too bad thinking about asking for more $$$.
> 
> But he did ask us to take the wood once the tree was down. That wasn't part of the deal he made with my climber, so I told him it would be $75 more, just because. He balked, told me again what a great customer he was, and told me he refused hiring another crew that was cruising the street in favour of calling us back (that pizzed me off when he said that. It was low). I told him he was paying less for that tree than I would have charged my mother so "you are getting good service, sir". He shut up after that, and the job was longer, but uneventful - and hot.




How many guys you got bidding on jobs? Does your groundies bid? I guess I am confused.
Jeff


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## treeseer (Jul 5, 2010)

tree md said:


> I get add ons quite frequently... I always have everything written down in black and white, itemized and carbon copied. I just add to or subtract whatever I need to.



:agree2:

Add-ons are the spice of life, A SOURCE OF PROFIT AND SATISFACTION! damcaplock
If I see an issue in a tree that I'm ion needs more work, I can email them a picture, or a video. Seldom get turned down that way. 
Add-ons come up all the time; we see more in the landscape than the tree owners do, so naturally we see more that needs done to keep it growing well.


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## CNBTreeTrimming (Jul 5, 2010)

I have once. On a blow down Russian Olive. The ground was soft the tree not large and almost all of the roots were out of the ground. Told the customer based on what i see this is what I think I can do it for. Then said if I have to grind the stump and roots it will be a lil more. He agreed and said do it. I had to grind he got mad at the bill and I lost the customer.


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## tree md (Jul 5, 2010)

I had to change the price on a job onetime from $2800 to $10500. 

I started out on one tree that I was trying to remove by climbing. We had two others he wanted to take down but we needed a crane for those. I told him I that I needed to talk to my crane service and get back with him on a price for the other two trees. I got up in the first tree and it had a bad hollow in one of the leaders I needed to get out on to clear the power lines. It became obvious that the leader was too compromised to get out on as far as I needed to clear the lines. No other TIP except for one that would swing me into the phase three lines should the leader fail. 

I came down and went to the HO's business to talk to him about it. I told him it was just too risky to climb out on the rotten, hollow leader. I told him there was no charge for what I had already completed. He told me to talk to the crane service and give him a price for taking all three out with the crane. I told him I would try to keep the price at the original $2800 on the tree I had worked on if he hired us to do all three with the crane. I did that along with $7700 for the two additional trees. The guy was pleased as punch because we came in just under $2000 less than the closest previous bid.

It was a win, win for everyone. Very rare that it works out that way but that time it did.


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 5, 2010)

Never asked an HO for more money. I've lost on jobs but can't bring myself to make the HO pay for a bidding error on my part. Obviously an add on is a different story. They can be annoying because I run a very tight schedule and many times an extra hundred bucks worth of work can #### up my day but in the end it's for the best. My trucks and men are already there, may as well pocket some straight profit.


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## forestryworks (Jul 5, 2010)

Bid high. If it comes out less, that's what I charge. Add ons are a whole new job.


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## Mikecutstrees (Jul 5, 2010)

Iv'e had similar experiences to treemd. Got up in a big removal and found out that there was a huge defect not visable from the ground. I felt in those cases that I was honest and forthright with the homeowner and did my best to be fair. Normally if I just screw up the bid I always eat it and learn from it. Iv'e learned alot over the past 5 years. 

Mike


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## tree md (Jul 5, 2010)

To tell the truth, I was the only one dumb enough to attempt that tree without a crane. It was compromised with a large cavity at the base but I figured I could rig small and bring it down without a crane. It wasn't until I learned the tree was rotten and hollow through and through that I learned it was not climbable. It was the smallest of the three trees and even with a crane it was only worth around $32. The HO appreciated me trying to save him some money which helped me win the entire bid.


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## BC WetCoast (Jul 6, 2010)

I've had to do it once. Bid a tree to remove 5-6 dead branches (broken and hanging in a 120' Douglas fir and specifically written into the quote). Climber gets into the tree and finds about 25 dead and broken branches sitting on other branches so weren't visible from the ground. HO not available to talk to, and the dead branches were sitting over the neighbour's back yard where they had a kid's play set. Climber made a decision to make the tree safe, then I had to go and beg a price upgrade from the customer. She was good about it and we reached an agreement. She was concerned about the safety of the tree and her neighbours, but I could have been screwed.


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## Groundman One (Jul 6, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> How many guys you got bidding on jobs? Does your groundies bid? I guess I am confused.
> Jeff



Not as confused as me. 

Most of the time it's just me and my climber working on trees. The bossman pals around with the other climber and they do a few jobs here and there, and some construction on the side, but most of the work is our crew of two, though we take on one or two extra guys for big jobs. We'll max out at about seven or eight guys (rarely) for the biggest jobs. (We're a small company as you can tell.)

The bossman prices some jobs, but about 90% are priced by me (the groundman as you can tell) and my climber. We look at a job, tell the customer we're going to talk behind his back for a few minutes (that always gets a laugh), and find the middle ground between my price and my climber's price. We're usually within 10% of each other's price. Most of the time we split the difference and that's the price the customer gets. In this case, though, my climber priced it himself while I was at the truck doing stuff and he thought the job would go much faster than it did.


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## chip's-tree (Jul 6, 2010)

I never change my price unless there are add ons (sometimes they are a blessing) I have missed a lot of crap over the yrs---rot, lighting struck etc... and just sucked it up and went on with the job---HO is happy and i get called back.


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## treemandan (Jul 6, 2010)

Wait, GM1, did the guy change the price midstream or just give a lower price than what you thought it should be at the start?


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## Groundman One (Jul 7, 2010)

treemandan said:


> Wait, GM1, did the guy change the price midstream or just give a lower price than what you thought it should be at the start?



A lower price at the start. It was a $400 job to begin with (we did the estimate about two weeks ago), a few small takedowns and a few dead branches, full disposal and a nice clean up after. While I was unloading the truck, the owner took my climber to the other side of the house to look at another tree and asked how much to add that one on the bill. He said $100. When he told me after I thought he was joking. It was a balsam, about 60', maybe 16", ten feet from the house and leaning right over the house. "You charged a $100 for that?"

Maybe as a treat to a good customer just to take it down, but we had to move the truck and chipper around the corner and set up again and that means cleaning the road (a second time) when when we're done, and raking the lawn (a second time) where you dragged the branches, and the truck was sixty-feet from the tree and there were a lot of branches, and there is the risk factor of the where the tree was and to top it all off it was :censored: hot and I was looking forward to knocking off at noon.

Honestly, I thought he was pulling my leg right up until we got paid. And yep, $100.


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## pdqdl (Jul 7, 2010)

I changed a price on a tree bid one time.

It was a huge dead elm tree, hanging over house. I was asked to quote only to get it to the ground safely. When I actually showed up to do the job, I discovered that my bucket truck was not tall enough to complete the job.

I contacted the customer, informing him that I had screwed up on the bid and could not complete the job without hiring a crane to get me higher in the air. I told them he didn't owe me anything for my attempt and that I would walk away from the job unpaid for the work that I had completed.

I offered to finish the job if I got to add the cost of a crane rental. He agreed, remarking that that put my price up in the same ballpark as other quotes he had received.

Job was finished, we got paid, customer was retained.


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## Groundman One (Jul 7, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I changed a price on a tree bid one time.
> 
> It was a huge dead elm tree, hanging over house. I was asked to quote only to get it to the ground safely. When I actually showed up to do the job, I discovered that my bucket truck was not tall enough to complete the job.
> 
> ...



Sounds completely reasonable.


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## capetrees (Jul 7, 2010)

Changed a price down this past spring. Big pine, major damage from a wind storm and hanging over a house. Thought I would need to climb and drop everything by line. The day I got there the wind was blowing pretty hard making a climb a bit hairy but in my favor, away from the house so I decided to drop the tree instead. Cut the price in half.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 7, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I changed a price on a tree bid one time.
> 
> It was a huge dead elm tree, hanging over house. I was asked to quote only to get it to the ground safely. When I actually showed up to do the job, I discovered that my bucket truck was not tall enough to complete the job.
> 
> ...



How did all the other guys that bid on it, know how big your bucket truck is?
Ha! oke::hmm3grin2orange:
Jeff


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## Grace Tree (Jul 7, 2010)

We did a lot of work in a neighborhood last year and a young Chinese girl came over and got me to give her a bid on a red oak right at the corner of her house. Nice tree. Wrong place. A lot of motioning with very little English and her parents? rattling away in Chinese in the background. We were booked a month out and this looked like a communications nightmare so I told her I'd give her a dirt cheap estimate and she could contact one of the "beat any price" Craigslist scumbags that seem to follow me around and she may be able to get it done cheap. Lots of head nodding so I thought the problem was solved.
Wrong. Got a call a month ago. Same tree. You cut down. How much. So I gave her an estimate and we set a date for Tuesday. She called four more times. How much to cut half the tree. Thinking that she just wanted the lead over the house removed I told her half my original bid. We show up Tuesday morning and a Chinese man comes out of the house, grabs a 10 ft. aluminum pole, walks to the tree and says in broken English; "you cut here".
So the half tree they wanted cut was 48' of a 60' oak. The part they wanted to keep was the 12' trunk. We made no headway trying to explain anything so they called the Chinese homeowner who spoke a little better English. I told my partner to talk to her and he spent the next 15 minutes trying to explain proper tree work to two people who only knew "you cut tree" and a third who didn't care or didn't understand. After 15 minutes I could see he was about to blow so I wrote a note that said "get us out of her now and I'll buy you breakfast at Waffle House" Best move of the day. He told the homeowner we were no longer interested in touching the tree and shook the hands of the young Chinese couple who thought that meant we were going to start cutting their tree. We got in the truck and they followed us half a block down the street yelling. No go. You cut little. You cut little. 
Live and learn-maybe,
Phil


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## tree md (Jul 7, 2010)

Small Wood said:


> We did a lot of work in a neighborhood last year and a young Chinese girl came over and got me to give her a bid on a red oak right at the corner of her house. Nice tree. Wrong place. A lot of motioning with very little English and her parents? rattling away in Chinese in the background. We were booked a month out and this looked like a communications nightmare so I told her I'd give her a dirt cheap estimate and she could contact one of the "beat any price" Craigslist scumbags that seem to follow me around and she may be able to get it done cheap. Lots of head nodding so I thought the problem was solved.
> Wrong. Got a call a month ago. Same tree. You cut down. How much. So I gave her an estimate and we set a date for Tuesday. She called four more times. How much to cut half the tree. Thinking that she just wanted the lead over the house removed I told her half my original bid. We show up Tuesday morning and a Chinese man comes out of the house, grabs a 10 ft. aluminum pole, walks to the tree and says in broken English; "you cut here".
> So the half tree they wanted cut was 48' of a 60' oak. The part they wanted to keep was the 12' trunk. We made no headway trying to explain anything so they called the Chinese homeowner who spoke a little better English. I told my partner to talk to her and he spent the next 15 minutes trying to explain proper tree work to two people who only knew "you cut tree" and a third who didn't care or didn't understand. After 15 minutes I could see he was about to blow so I wrote a note that said "get us out of her now and I'll buy you breakfast at Waffle House" Best move of the day. He told the homeowner we were no longer interested in touching the tree and shook the hands of the young Chinese couple who thought that meant we were going to start cutting their tree. We got in the truck and they followed us half a block down the street yelling. No go. You cut little. You cut little.
> Live and learn-maybe,
> Phil





been there and done that...


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## lxt (Jul 8, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> I changed a price on a tree bid one time.
> 
> It was a huge dead elm tree, hanging over house. I was asked to quote only to get it to the ground safely. When I actually showed up to do the job, I discovered that my bucket truck was not tall enough to complete the job.




You *discovered* your bucket wasnt tall enough????? LOL!!!

How in the hell can some one "all of a sudden" *Discover* their buckets not tall enough?....c`mon!

I could understand if they put up a fence, pool, garage or something since you bid it....but buckets not tall enough?? rent a 90ft lift cheaper than a crane!!



LXT.................


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

lxt said:


> You *discovered* your bucket wasnt tall enough????? LOL!!!
> 
> How in the hell can some one "all of a sudden" *Discover* their buckets not tall enough?....c`mon!
> 
> ...



It's actually quite easy. 

If you have ever used a bucket truck very much, don't even try to tell me that you haven't over estimated where it will reach and discovered that you were wrong. 

Haven't you ever bid to remove a tree, only to discover something that you had overlooked that made you change your plan of removal?

*Come on! Be honest here!*

In this particular case, I had no problem going high enough, but I had insufficient reach to go out to where I needed to make the cuts to miss the house. after I started to remove the tree, I discovered that it was too dead and rotten to cut and rope down any of the pieces over the house, and I couldn't reach where I needed to be to cut and toss the pieces. Rigging ANYTHING would likely have lead to a catastrophic failure of the tree crashing into the house. It was really a fragile tree, yet all the small branches were still attached, and the limbs reached way out over the house.

Sooo...I rented a 14 ton crane with 65' reach (my bucket truck had a 55' working height. I didn't really gain much reach or height with the additional 15 feet of the Crane, since my bucket was rear mounted and the crane was mounted behind the cab. What I DID gain, was the ability to rig to my "bucket", and then swing the load away from the house and lower it. 

As I recall, I bid $900 to lower the tree initially, and it cost me $400 to rent the crane. The crane was especially handy when it came to finishing the lower part of the tree. The next closest bid was $1350, so the customer was still going with the lowest price!

Obviously, a 90 foot lift would have done the job, but it certainly would not have been as cheap to rent, nor would it have been able to lower thousand pound chunks of wood later on in the removal.

Did that explain it all?


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> It's actually quite easy.
> 
> If you have ever used a bucket truck very much, don't even try to tell me that you haven't over estimated where it will reach and discovered that you were wrong.
> 
> ...



That's what I would say, lol!
Jeff


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 8, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> It's actually quite easy.
> 
> If you have ever used a bucket truck very much, don't even try to tell me that you haven't over estimated where it will reach and discovered that you were wrong.
> 
> ...



No offense, pdql, you been at this running a biz thing for longer than I so I'm just curious to your thought process on this one. When you first described this I thought your actions made sense and that I might sometime do the same in your case but I was thinking much bigger numbers. If you'd only be out 400 bucks in the end why wouldn't you save face and credibility and just eat it? My professionalism is worth far more than 400 dollars.


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> No offense, pdql, you been at this running a biz thing for longer than I so I'm just curious to your thought process on this one. When you first described this I thought your actions made sense and that I might sometime do the same in your case but I was thinking much bigger numbers. If you'd only be out 400 bucks in the end why wouldn't you save face and credibility and just eat it? My professionalism is worth far more than 400 dollars.



For my part, I think context is everything and adjusting the price is not necessarily a sacrifice of professionalism.

Let's say 99% of the time, no you should not change the price mid-job. The other 1% still exists and is legitimate. This is business, and business is business.


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> adjusting the price is not necessarily a sacrifice of professionalism.



I'd have to disagree with you there, GM. When I get hired for a job they call me because I do this for a living and I know what I'm doing. They agree to pay me a set amount to do what they cannot. Admitting that I messed up the bid is admitting that I am lacking in the skills required to do my job. I'm not saying it can't be done tactfully, and that one should never do it but I think my magic number would be far greater than 4 hundred bucks. 

If nothing else it will make you a better bidder if you eat it a few times. I did a mulching job last year where the entire cost of the job went towards mulch because we under estimated the amount of material needed. That gave me cause to refine my bidding process on mulch jobs. Now, when bidding I give the customer a contract on my labor and trucking fees, the materials cost is a rough "estimate" of what it will take to do the job right and the HO reimburses me the cost of materials.


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> I'd have to disagree with you there, GM. When I get hired for a job they call me because I do this for a living and I know what I'm doing. They agree to pay me a set amount to do what they cannot. Admitting that I messed up the bid is admitting that I am lacking in the skills required to do my job. I'm not saying it can't be done tactfully, and that one should never do it but I think my magic number would be far greater than 4 hundred bucks.
> 
> If nothing else it will make you a better bidder if you eat it a few times. I did a mulching job last year where the entire cost of the job went towards mulch because we under estimated the amount of material needed. That gave me cause to refine my bidding process on mulch jobs. Now, when bidding I give the customer a contract on my labor and trucking fees, the materials cost is a rough "estimate" of what it will take to do the job right and the HO reimburses me the cost of materials.



I understand and I agree 99%.

I was only saying that the 1% exists, and there are times when $400 is real money.


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> No offense, pdql, you been at this running a biz thing for longer than I so I'm just curious to your thought process on this one. When you first described this I thought your actions made sense and that I might sometime do the same in your case but I was thinking much bigger numbers. If you'd only be out 400 bucks in the end why wouldn't you save face and credibility and just eat it? My professionalism is worth far more than 400 dollars.




1. This was back in 1997, so $400 was a lot more money then. It was the first year I had that bucket truck, so I was a bit of a newbie with a bucket truck.

2. Even with the additional payment for the crane, the job was seriously underbid. Even after adding some money to the price to compensate for the crane, I considered that I was "eating it". I worked on that tree for an entire day and a half before I had it on the ground. The first day was discovery of my mistake, and the second day was spent working out of that incredibly slow crane (with a man-bucket mounted on the end) cutting down the tree. 

The access to the tree was very difficult, and we were barely able to get the larger crane truck down the skinny alley and into the rough terrain of the tiny backyard. My crane operator was my brother-in-law, and the rest of the tree took all day to complete, since he was not a skilled operator, and it took a lot of extra time to lower the wood into a safe area. Bottom line: I lost money big-time on my mistake, but I suppose I gained some important experience. 

3. I had done previous work for this customer, and he was always a cheapskate, seeking the very bottom dollar and expecting the most out of it. He bought and rehabilitated houses for a living, and seldom sent me any work that was very profitable. 

Unless it was a job that he absolutely couldn't do himself, there was no future work for me in it. We understood each other completely, and there was no credibility to be saved. He knew that I was capable of doing of the more advanced tree work and and that I was trying to honor my quote, and he also knew that I had materially underbid my competition. 

In this particular case, I made a mistake, I admitted it, and I offered my customer an opportunity to profit from my mistake: I had 1/2 the tree on the ground before I discovered that I simply couldn't finish the job safely. He might have taken another tree services quote at a reduced price at that point, but he stuck with me anyway.

Why? I believe that he had complete confidence that I would do the job well, whereas the other tree services were an unknown quantity. 

He called me just last summer, for what he described as a simple brush cleanup that he did not have time to do himself. 

HO! HO! HO! 

It turns out that there was an enormous yellow jacket nest in the middle of the work area. After I had farmed through the area and discovered the nest, he denied even knowing that the yellow jackets were there, despite having already cleaned the brush almost the rest of the property. Fortunately, I had chosen to mow it in the summer heat with my air-conditioned Bobcat A300 and our brush mower deck. _No stings, no problem!_ I even took the time to dig out the nest with the corner of the mower deck. That really stirred them up!

If I had been there in an open cab, exposed to the yellow jackets, it would have been a a sure trip to the hospital if someone was even a little allergic. Before I got off the job, he wanted me to do some additional brush clearing at no additional price.

Like I said, he was a cheapskate, but we understood each other. He pays the bill I ask for, and I must watch carefully for all hidden danger and expenses.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> For my part, I think context is everything and adjusting the price is not necessarily a sacrifice of professionalism.
> 
> Let's say 99% of the time, no you should not change the price mid-job. The other 1% still exists and is legitimate. This is business, and business is business.



Well, when I give a price, that's the price! I would never make the customer pay for my ignorance! 
Jeff CTSP


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well, when I give a price, that's the price! I would never make the customer pay for my ignorance!
> Jeff CTSP



I respect that. That's the way you do business and I like a guy who keeps business, business.

Keep in mind, though, my viewpoint is only about 1% off of yours, so I think we can agree to a 99% agreement. And that's not too bad.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> 1. This was back in 1997, so $400 was a lot more money then. It was the first year I had that bucket truck, so I was a bit of a newbie with a bucket truck.
> 
> 2. Even with the additional payment for the crane, the job was seriously underbid. Even after adding some money to the price to compensate for the crane, I considered that I was "eating it". I worked on that tree for an entire day and a half before I had it on the ground. the first day was discovery of my mistake, and the second day was spent working out of that incredibly slow crane (with a man-bucket mounted on the end) cutting down the tree.
> 
> ...




Man, you got excuses for every situation. You are sounding like a guy I used to know. Lame!
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> I respect that. That's the way you do business and I like a guy who keeps business, business.
> 
> Keep in mind, though, my viewpoint is only about 1% off of yours, so I think we can agree to a 99% agreement. And that's not too bad.



Your viewpoint is relative to your experience. My viewpoint is relative to my experience. 
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Man, you got excuses for every situation. You are sounding like a guy I used to know. Lame!
> Jeff



No excuses have been offered. I admitted my mistake from the very beginning. I was asked for my reasoning. I gave it.

Dave's definition of "excuse": _A reason that is offered by some miscreant so as to escape blame for their actions._ 

Like I said, I accepted the blame, so I don't need to worry about excuses.


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Your viewpoint is relative to your experience. My viewpoint is relative to my experience.
> Jeff



Of course. I just thought the room was getting a bit warm and I wasn't sure why.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Of course. I just thought the room was getting a bit warm and I wasn't sure why.



Because we are tree guys and no-one can argue with us better than us! Put on your man suit and deal with it. 
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Keep in mind, though, my viewpoint is only about 1% off of yours, so I think we can agree to a 99% agreement. And that's not too bad.



That's better than in the political forum where everybody is in in 99% disagreement with you.


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## mckeetree (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Man, you got excuses for every situation. You are sounding like a guy I used to know. Lame!
> Jeff



Yep.


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Well, when I give a price, that's the price! I would never make the customer pay for my ignorance!
> Jeff CTSP



Unless I am mistaken, you work for someone else, right? I guess that makes the employer pay for your mistakes, eh?

It is a bit different when *you* pay all the bills, and you know that you are dealing with a cheapskate that will take advantage of *you* at every turn.


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> That's better than in the political forum where everybody is in in 99% disagreement with you.



I find your Declaration of Independence and your Constitution remarkable documents in that they not only allow for the expression of the dissenting viewpoint and the voice of the individual - even in the matter of pricing tree jobs - but cherish and protect those views and voices as they are the ultimate guarantors of the freedom loving nature of the American nation.

Hence this fine site. Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Mckeetree?


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## mckeetree (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> I find your Declaration of Independence and your Constitution remarkable documents in that they not only allow for the expression of the dissenting viewpoint and the voice of the individual - even in the matter of pricing tree jobs - but cherish and protect those views and voices as they are the ultimate guarantors of the freedom loving nature of the American nation.
> 
> Hence this fine site. Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Mckeetree?



Well in your case tis good they allow for the dissenting viewpoint because you are the great dissenter around here.


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> Well in your case tis good they allow for the dissenting viewpoint because you are the great dissenter around here.



This is an excellent tree work site.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Unless I am mistaken, you work for someone else, right? I guess that makes the employer pay for your mistakes, eh?
> 
> It is a bit different when *you* pay all the bills, and you know that you are dealing with a cheapskate that will take advantage of *you* at every turn.



I dont make mistakes, I make money for the company or I would not be employed by the company. Maybe you need a guy like me! My boss dont pay me for my good looks. You are still making excuses- do you ever admit your short-comings. I don't think you could do my job, 33 years of this is what I do and I don't make excuses for not knowing how big my bucket truck is, or asking clients to pay more for my ignorance.
Jeff


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## Groundman One (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I dont make mistakes, I make money for the company or I would not be employed by the company. Maybe you need a guy like me! My boss dont pay me for my good looks. You are still making excuses- do you ever admit your short-comings. I don't think you could do my job, 33 years of this is what I do and I don't make excuses for not knowing how big my bucket truck is, or asking clients to pay more for my ignorance.
> Jeff



Well, this is a vibrant debate. 

I hold to my 99% and cling to the 1% as well.

Let there be trees... and money.


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> I find your Declaration of Independence and your Constitution remarkable documents...
> 
> Hence this fine site. Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Mckeetree?



Nice reminder, and a good post.

McKeetree & jefflovstrom are the ankle-biters of this forum. I just looked at the last 75 posts for both of them, and nothing was more than a couple of lines, invariably some smart comment about what someone else posted. They are not contributing very much recently, they mostly just poke at the contributors and stir up conflict.

Come on guys, you can do better than just pick fights all the time. I have seen you do it.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 8, 2010)

Groundman One said:


> Well, this is a vibrant debate.
> 
> I hold to my 99% and cling to the 1% as well.
> 
> Let there be trees... and money.



I am starting to like you. Even if you are a socialist!
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am starting to like you.
> Jeff



That will wear off. I went through that phase with him too.


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## pdqdl (Jul 8, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> ... You are still making excuses- do you ever admit your short-comings. ...
> Jeff



All the time. As I have pointed out to you previously.



jefflovstrom said:


> I dont make mistakes...
> Jeff



It must be nice to be perfect that way. 

BTW: *Don't* has an apostrophe. Wouldn't that be a mistake?


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## mckeetree (Jul 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Nice reminder, and a good post.
> 
> McKeetree & jefflovstrom are the ankle-biters of this forum. I just looked at the last 75 posts for both of them, and nothing was more than a couple of lines, invariably some smart comment about what someone else posted. They are not contributing very much recently, they mostly just poke at the contributors and stir up conflict.
> 
> Come on guys, you can do better than just pick fights all the time. I have seen you do it.



My god, what can you reply back that is constructive at some of the retarded things that have posted here lately.


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## pdqdl (Jul 9, 2010)

Look at this. Almost midnite, central time, and there are 4 people on this thread sniping at each other.

We all need to get a better focus on our priorities!


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## Groundman One (Jul 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I am starting to like you. Even if you are a socialist!
> Jeff



Damn straight you are. And damn straight I am.

I'm 46 years-old and I can still groundpound guys half my age into tears. I'm not doing it for the laughs, I'm doing it for the sole reason of exchanging physical work for money. I do good work, so give me the money.

That said, there is a philosophy to pricing the job, doing the job, and collecting for the job. And it's hard to say that any one method is perfectly correct. There are always variables and surprises.


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## pdqdl (Jul 9, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> My god, what can you reply back that is constructive at some of the retarded things that have posted here lately.



That is a fair challenge.

Look up my last 75 posts, and then try to tell me that all *my* posts are deprecating, insulting gibes at the other participants here.

Generally, I just share my thoughts on a topic, or pass along what I believe is good advice. When the commentary runs into the verbal battles, I generally don't get involved. When someone pokes at me, I would like to believe (for the most part) that I try to educate or coerce folks out of acting retarded. 

Hence my challenge to you to do better.


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

This thread made me think about one I really screwed the pooch on onetime. Huge Cottonwood. Sprawled over two houses. I believe we measured the stump at like 72" when we finally got finished. It was many moons ago. It took me two days to get the tree on the ground. We were hauling everything with a trailer. Took us 5 days in all. I was working with a partner back then. We had hired 2 guys to help us drag brush and move logs but it took me two days to get the tree down and that was all the time we had them for, they had to go back to their regular job. Me and my partner had to cut cookies like 4' in diameter and 4" or 5" thick, roll them out of the back yard and load them on the trailer. In all fairness we had the tree completely removed in 4 days but we had to come back the 5th day to fix/replace nearly a whole section of privacy fence that I wiped out. We did it for $1600. The lady felt sorry for us and paid us $1800. I still think I only made about a hundred dollars a day on that one. It was about the biggest tree I had done at that time. Lost my ass. I told my partner that if I hadn't been taught that my word was supposed to mean something I would have walked on that one. But I didn't walk, I finished it... And learned from it.


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## pdqdl (Jul 9, 2010)

I've got several of those "bid wrong" Cottonwood tales too.

My tree foreman/climber bid one job at $900, then told me to run from the bid, because it was at least a $1500 job. I told him "You bid it that cheap, now you have to do it!"

It too was a 6' cottonwood, and the biggest we have ever done. We crushed two fences [a broken rope and an incorrect felling cut], and we spent three days with a full crew hauling truckload after truckload of logs out. It was worth $300 just to wheelbarrow all the noodles out to load onto the truck. When the huge 50' spar hit the ground, it buried a 10" limb about 14 inches into the soft ground for about 11' of it's length. We had to get a portable winch just to get the log out of the ground.

The tree was down in the ghetto, and the house couldn't have been worth more than 10 grand. Furthermore, the maintenance was terrible, and the interior of the house was a cockroach infested pig-sty, so we were worried about even getting paid the $900.

The old gentleman paid like solid gold when we were done fixing his fences. 

_And no, I didn't offer to raise the price._

My biggest tip on a tree came on a similar cottonwood: slightly underbid, the customer tipped me $300 over my bid, because she knew that we bid it too cheap.


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## Blakesmaster (Jul 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> 1. This was back in 1997, so $400 was a lot more money then. It was the first year I had that bucket truck, so I was a bit of a newbie with a bucket truck.
> 
> 2. Even with the additional payment for the crane, the job was seriously underbid. Even after adding some money to the price to compensate for the crane, I considered that I was "eating it". I worked on that tree for an entire day and a half before I had it on the ground. The first day was discovery of my mistake, and the second day was spent working out of that incredibly slow crane (with a man-bucket mounted on the end) cutting down the tree.
> 
> ...



So basically you're saying if the customer said no way and told you to #### off, you'd have been better for it in the long run? Makes sense now.


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## Groundman One (Jul 9, 2010)

Blakesmaster said:


> So basically you're saying if the customer said no way and told you to #### off, you'd have been better for it in the long run? Makes sense now.



Well, not quite the same thing, but we were saved from doing an ugly clearing job about a month ago by a refusal from the town to give us fire permits for the scheduled days. (Lots of regions have been denying them outright for two months now.) That job, also priced by my climer, was on the low side. He priced it at $2300. Too me two-minutes to see it should have been closer to $3000. We would have done it for the $2300, but it wouldn't have been much fun.


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## tree MDS (Jul 9, 2010)

I screw up bids all the time, you learn to suck it up and deal. You know its bad when they tip you a couple hundred out of sympathy. Lol.

So there, I'm not perfect.. almost maybe, but not quite. 

Actually I'm off to slave it up for a lot less per hour than I anticipated right now. Oh well, at least I don't do it on purpose.. that's when you know you're lowballing hack bag.


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## Groundman One (Jul 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I screw up bids all the time, you learn to suck it up and deal. You know its bad when they tip you a couple hundred out of sympathy. Lol.



A couple of hundred? Have you really got tips that big?

We got $50 each, me and my climber, twice. $20 a few more times, and countless $5 & $10.



tree MDS said:


> So there, I'm not perfect.. almost maybe, but not quite.



Well come back and post when you are. We got standards here, fella.


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## treevet (Jul 9, 2010)

As you have been in the game for longer and longer you bid better and better obviously from experience just like you get from climbing. You take less and less loss jobs until you never take a loss job. Part of that comes from not making any mistakes both in procedure or equipment failures otj. You may get less work but who needs the stinkers anyway?

Plus the more you bid (from being around longer and being more competent) the more confidence you have in bidding with loads of work already on the books.

But changing/raising a bid during a job is bush league and will get you a terrible rep buttonholing you into more and more stinker jobs. :bang:

Too much partaying and laziness not making the contacts you have will also effect the bid pool for you and give you perpetual loser jobs. Not preaching, just commenting from experience.


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## mckeetree (Jul 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I screw up bids all the time



I don't. I just can't afford to screw up any quotes. Any of the time. I see other guys around here locally do it frequently. A while back this jackass that is out of business now starts to question me as to why I bid a dead tree at a certain property so high ($1,675). I told him not to worry about what I bid on anything. This jackass comes back with "Well we bid $700 and I thought that was high but I got the job." I know the guy lost his ass on it as he did on many jobs before he went belly up.


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## pdqdl (Jul 9, 2010)

treevet said:


> ...
> 
> But changing/raising a bid during a job is bush league ...



I agree with all your comments above. 

Occasionally, however, it is necessary to change the bid. Sometimes because you cannot do the job you planned on doing, or something has changed on the job that requires a change in the bid price.

In the saga I told above, I simply was unable to complete the job without crushing the house or getting different equipment. I gave the customer the opportunity to fire me without any obligation to pay a dime, so I feel like I acted professionally.

I don't believe that acting "professional" means that the contractor is expected to never make a mistake, nor that a quote once submitted is inviolable. Sometimes things change, and the tree business is hardly an exact science. It is HOW you conduct your affairs that is most important, not just adhering to some lofty ideal while being a jerk otherwise.

Obviously, it is best if you are never wrong, and always act the perfect gentleman (or lady), but most of us can't pull that off.


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## treevet (Jul 9, 2010)

pdqdl, I had not read the OP but just a general comment on the thread and not directed at you. Gotta get back to work.


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## pdqdl (Jul 9, 2010)

I know. I thought your comments were right on target, and well composed as well. 

No offense was offered, and none taken. I think we see almost eye to eye on the topic.


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

The only circumstances where I think it would be acceptable to raise the price is if you have to bring specialized equipment on the job (like a crane) due to unforeseeable circumstance (like an unforeseen defect in the tree that would make it unsafe to climb) or if something doesn't go according to plan on the haul off that has been agreed upon (like when the customer says his son in law will pick up the wood and he doesn't show).

The big job I mentioned earlier in the thread ended up having to be done with a crane. This was no surprise to the HO because it was obviously compromised by a large cavity at the base and he had been told by other services that it would need a crane. When I found out how bad it was topside there was noway I was going to risk my life for $2800 and there was noway I was going to foot the bill for a crane. The HO understood this and gave me the go ahead for the crane. I was still able to keep the first tree at the original price with the other work he added on. Professional or not I am not going to kill myself over money and I'm not going to foot the bill for added equipment like a crane.

I also had to go up on a price a couple of months back. The neighbor said he would take the large wood on a job and then backed out when he saw how much it was. No biggie to the HO. I only charged him $225 more for the haul off.


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## treevet (Jul 9, 2010)

that all makes sense...

also when you find concrete or fencing in a tree with the saw but I have it in my contract that they foot the bill for chain and time and never had a prob w/ that.


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## tree MDS (Jul 9, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I don't. I just can't afford to screw up any quotes. Any of the time. I see other guys around here locally do it frequently. A while back this jackass that is out of business now starts to question me as to why I bid a dead tree at a certain property so high ($1,675). I told him not to worry about what I bid on anything. This jackass comes back with "Well we bid $700 and I thought that was high but I got the job." I know the guy lost his ass on it as he did on many jobs before he went belly up.



Lol. Maybe I should have said "I screw up bids sometimes". I'm actually pretty good at it.. most of the time. but definitely still learning.

TV, I got that and I cant argue with you there. No offense taken.. and yes, it takes one that used to be one, to know one. lol. 

MD, good post about the crane and the hidden defect. Thats about the only time I would do that that I can think of. I just had one like that a while back, 100' ash with hidden additional decay that I couldnt see from the ground. I was thinking crane or maybe call someone with a 75 footer.. in the end I said screw that and me and Stubs (my 60 footer) got after it. It wasnt pretty but it was down and fast. lol.


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

Treevet was right about the experience thing. After you have had to eat a few you learn real quick what you can do one for. The more you do the big nasty ones the more you see how much they are worth. I very rarely get caught up in the competition thing ether. If I am competing with someone on a bid I will give a good price but I'm not coming down off of my bottom dollar. I know how much I need to make the profit I need and I'll let someone else have it before I go any lower. Believe me, you don't want them all.


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## tree MDS (Jul 9, 2010)

I'm not that green md, its year 14 on my own. thanks though.

Now that I think about it some more.. its more like I know what the job is worth, but if I lack a certain piece of equipment (log truck, high capacity chip truck, or additional climber if pruning) I still price it as though I had it - just so I have work. I think this is what gets me (sometimes). If I had all that stuff, all of my bids would be fine most likely.


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

Wasn't addressing that to you bud. Just thinking out loud.


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## tree MDS (Jul 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> Wasn't addressing that to you bud. Just thinking out loud.



My bad. Sorry md.

Gotta go, this sucks, just heard an old friend passed away. no details yet. sort of kills the friday feeling.


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> My bad. Sorry md.
> 
> Gotta go, this sucks, just heard an old friend passed away. no details yet. sort of kills the friday feeling.



Sorry to hear that. Best wishes.


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## tree MDS (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks MD.

Its not like we didn't see it coming. Still sucks though.

Wrong place to mention it though - sorry bout that as! Didn't mean to start any drama.


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## treeclimber101 (Jul 9, 2010)

treevet said:


> As you have been in the game for longer and longer you bid better and better obviously from experience just like you get from climbing. You take less and less loss jobs until you never take a loss job. Part of that comes from not making any mistakes both in procedure or equipment failures otj. You may get less work but who needs the stinkers anyway?
> 
> Plus the more you bid (from being around longer and being more competent) the more confidence you have in bidding with loads of work already on the books.
> 
> ...


There are no loss jobs for me unless I cant afford to refuel the trucks or pay the men , anymore I will take work how I can , this is no time to be picky about price , you are only screwing yourself , I just find ways to make it up another way ,like the past storm I made a months money in a 10 days ..


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## treevet (Jul 9, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Thanks MD.
> 
> Its not like we didn't see it coming. Still sucks though.
> 
> Wrong place to mention it though - sorry bout that as! Didn't mean to start any drama.



Sorry to hear that man.


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## lxt (Jul 9, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> It's actually quite easy.
> 
> If you have ever used a bucket truck very much, don't even try to tell me that you haven't over estimated where it will reach and discovered that you were wrong.
> 
> ...




ever used a bucket truck......YES, over 20yrs of experience...& NO I have never underestimated what I can & cannot reach, especially a stone cold dead ELM, I have done trees much taller than the buckets I was using.....what then you ask? I use the bucket as an elevator & jump out & climb!!!!!!!

And I am being Honest......maybe when I was in my early 20`s & all gung ho did I underbid or work harder than I should have (young, dumb & full of cum)....but underestimating bucket height or over center reach......cant say I have done that in the last 18+ years!!!

would I have changed my bid though......NO! I would have made the Home owner aware that if I could not reach it then I would need specialty equipment at their cost!! up front before jumping in, $400 in 97 was it? you think that was alot back then.......most think thats alot today probably more so than back then!!!!

check out my thread titled ameriquip old but good......there you will see what I was able to do with a bucket no where near tall enough!!

LXT..................


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## Slvrmple72 (Jul 9, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> I don't. I just can't afford to screw up any quotes. Any of the time. I see other guys around here locally do it frequently. A while back this jackass that is out of business now starts to question me as to why I bid a dead tree at a certain property so high ($1,675). I told him not to worry about what I bid on anything. This jackass comes back with "Well we bid $700 and I thought that was high but I got the job." I know the guy lost his ass on it as he did on many jobs before he went belly up.



They just don't have a clue after years of scraping by with beat up, broke down bodies and equipment. If you are still putting up with the same type of customers and price range you first started out with then I feel really sorry for you. Quality service warrants a premium price, you don't like it then go Craigslist Yourself!


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> The only circumstances where I think it would be acceptable to raise the price is if you have to bring specialized equipment on the job (like a crane) due to unforeseeable circumstance (like an unforeseen defect in the tree that would make it unsafe to climb) or if something doesn't go according to plan on the haul off that has been agreed upon (like when the customer says his son in law will pick up the wood.
> 
> I also had to go up on a price a couple of months back.
> 
> ...


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## treevet (Jul 9, 2010)

lxt said:


> I have done trees much taller than the buckets I was using....!!
> 
> LXT..................



Hell yeah....and besides getting out and climbing you can just butt hitch a limb or small lead and either drop it into a block or just hang it on a lanyard and then carve it up (much faster).....20....30...feet or more.


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 9, 2010)

tree md said:


> Wasn't addressing that to you bud. Just thinking out loud.



Hop you don't 'type' what you are thinking about know!! eeww!
Jeff


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## tree md (Jul 9, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> tree md said:
> 
> 
> > The only circumstances where I think it would be acceptable to raise the price is if you have to bring specialized equipment on the job (like a crane) due to unforeseeable circumstance (like an unforeseen defect in the tree that would make it unsafe to climb) or if something doesn't go according to plan on the haul off that has been agreed upon (like when the customer says his son in law will pick up the wood.
> ...


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## jefflovstrom (Jul 9, 2010)

lxt said:


> ever used a bucket truck......YES, over 20yrs of experience...& NO I have never underestimated what I can & cannot reach, especially a stone cold dead ELM, I have done trees much taller than the buckets I was using.....what then you ask? I use the bucket as an elevator & jump out & climb!!!!!!!
> 
> And I am being Honest......maybe when I was in my early 20`s & all gung ho did I underbid or work harder than I should have (young, dumb & full of cum)....but underestimating bucket height or over center reach......cant say I have done that in the last 18+ years!!!
> 
> ...



Good post man, but you should lay off the 'Red Bull', . It is obvious you know what you are doing, so quit trying to intimidate these guy's. Or, do you wanna be like me? 
Jeff


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## lxt (Jul 10, 2010)

Easy Jeff, LMFAO

no, not trying to start a squabble or intimidate.....I just run into this alot...joe schmoe bids the job at xxx & then when he starts he realizes, ooops I didnt see that when I bid it, dam tree grew I cant reach it...or the real good one: lets take off all the limbs over the house & then remove the central leader while leaving the big section over the 3 phase with no place to rope too.

I understand if you run into honey bee`s, or the customer built something in your path.......but if access & hazards are the same from when you bid it....then why now all of a sudden change the price? I just dont get it.

I did a job this past friday, simple elevation & dead wood job....but found out the one leader was seriously in need of removal.........2 red headed woodpeckers had worked this lead so bad & bored 3/4 of the way through in so many spots I woulda felt bad not telling the HO, we removed that lead, made it safe & for no additional charge!!!!



LXT.................


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## imagineero (Jul 14, 2010)

There's a great scene in the grapes of wrath where the rich white landowners gather all the negro workers together for some amusement (no TV in those days). The depression is on, the workers have no money and they know their families are at home starving and havent eaten for days... They blindfold them, and push them together to make them fight. They throw coins at them, on the ground... the workers are desperately scrambling on the ground for the coins, knowing that a few precious dollars might make the difference between life and death for their kids. While they crawl around, the landowners kick and punch them, push them into each other, whip them into a fury until they are blindly punching each other. Jolly good fun.

reading through threads like this it always shocks me how much crap some guys are willing to put up with by their customers.... Guys go through all kinds of nonsense; rude/abusive customers, liars, cheats, non-payers, people who make you compete against others to drop your price to the point you cant cover your costs etc etc....

Why is it people are so willing to compromise themselves when running a business, but wouldn't even dream of putting up with half as much if they were working for someone who treated them the same way? If you were working for a boss who short changed you, wouldn't pay you for the hours you worked, stopped paying you if the job took longer than he thought it would, expected you to cover all your own mistakes and equipment out of your pocket, was rude and abusive and called you in to work just to have a look at a job then sent you home and said he might call you next week to do it, you'd tell him where to put that job ;-)

I've never changed price mid-job, and I've taken it up the rear 2 or 3 times in a pretty big way. Not on tree work, but on other things (mostly commercial renovations). Honesty and ethics, sure. but if the situation were reversed, how would you treat the other person? I expect the same treatment from my customers, as I give to them. Before it gets to the point that I'm crawling round on hands and knees for a few dollars, I'll become a farmer. At least I'll eat.

Shaun


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