# Hurt by a Vermeer 252



## NYstupgrinder

I am an attorney and have a client that was hurt by a Vermeer 252... He shut the machine down and walked away from the controls and went to pull a hose that had become dislodged by the machine... The cutter wheel was still rotating...Infact, tests show it takes almost 10 seconds to stop... Does anybody else know anybody who was hurt in this fashion, due to the continually moving wheel of a 252 that has been shut down... 

P.S. - The Ogura clutch now seems to have lowered the stop time....Does anybody have experience with this.... Thanks....


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## Kneejerk Bombas

AS Member Tree Machine had an accident with a stump grinder that was free spinning.


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## BlueRidgeMark

Make sure there's nobody with common sense on the jury and you will be in good shape. Walking away from moving power equipment is NOT "reasonable and prudent".


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## TimberJack_7

NYstupgrinder said:


> I am an attorney and have a client that was hurt by a Vermeer 252... He shut the machine down and walked away from the controls and went to pull a hose that had become dislodged by the machine... The cutter wheel was still rotating...Infact, tests show it takes almost 10 seconds to stop... Does anybody else know anybody who was hurt in this fashion, due to the continually moving wheel of a 252 that has been shut down...
> 
> P.S. - The Ogura clutch now seems to have lowered the stop time....Does anybody have experience with this.... Thanks....




What are you trying to find this information for? Are you trying to mount some sort of class action law suit(making the cost of our equipment,insurance,workman's comp, etc skyrocket in the process!!!)? I would think that you would have approached the manufacturer before approaching a forum with this question, perhaps you already did. There are enough idiot labels on these machines as it is. How much more should we dumb these machines down? When are all the lawyers going to realize that some people should stay away from heavy equipment because they are too dumb to be near it? Some people are just destined to meet their maker at the hands of large power equipment.

What are your intentions?

P.S. - Nothing personal Mr. Attorney.

People that operate any sort of equipment, especially in the tree industry should be cognizent of their surrounding and their equipment. Yeah I know we're all human and we all make mistakes and blah blah blah, but there is a time and a place to be lax, and it is NOT on the job site.


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## TackleTree

Bot sure about the nature of injury but i always stop my car completely, put it in park then get out. Common sense right? Same goes for this situation. Make sure all external moving parts have stopped before approaching. I hope that the person injured can make a full recovery, without complications. I dont think the machine is to blame here but human error, lack of training, etc...not the machine.


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## Ekka

I have two machines and I guard them like a rabid dog on heat whilst that wheel is spinning.

It's a no go zone till it stops and I couldn't give a rats ass if it took 10 minutes or 10 seconds for it to stop. No-one goes near it till it does.

Also you can plunge the rotating wheel into the ground to stop it.

Forget building a 2000 mile fence across Texas to keep Mexicans out, you got 20,000 miles of beach to fence off in case some-one drowns, gotta be signs that say swimming is wet, depth unknown too hey? Friggin lawyers.

When does one accept responsibility for their own actions?

See, if that were a staff member he'd get a whopping payout on the bosses insurance for being an IDIOT, and you'd get a nice cut hey.

But if he were self employed with his own machine he'd get stuff all and you wouldn't even be here. Get the message?

What happened to Tree Machine had nothing to do with the wheel taking 10 seconds to stop .... it had a lot to do with the fact that another IDIOT operator left the machine running with the cutter wheel engaged and spinning *unattended* and he got chomped when he walked into it backwards.

Noisy jobsite, earmuffs on, he couldn't hear it, totally different scenario.

I dont care if you dont like me or my post or attitude, what I see is a lawyer looking for blame. Well, look at your client.

*Hey guys, here's an opportunity to dish out some reputation points. Lol*


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## BlueRidgeMark

Ekka said:


> But if he were self employed with his own machine he'd get stuff all and you wouldn't even be here. Get the message?



Sadly inaccurate. He's probably looking to sue Vermeer for making a machine that doesn't stop the wheel immediately.


If the twit can't wait 10 seconds, it's HIS problem, not Vermeer's.


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## l2edneck

*i agree*

Haha at the lawyers name


> NYstupgrinder


Now i feel bad for the idiot that stuck his hand in there or what ever he did to try to get paid.

Common sense tells ya dont stick yer hand in the blade of a fan.And when some one does do they sue the fan manf ? I feel bad he got hurt but he should probably work in another industry if he can work after a yoyo move like that

I had a guy try to sue my boss because he said he hurt his back liftin the table to close it on the chipper.Was found to be a scam and he was required to pay court cost as well as lost wages due to callin the boss and crew in court when they could have been working.Remember to make em sign a waiver sayin they know it is dangerous work and they are responsible for dumba## moves that get themselves hurt.(Thats what i do and you'd be surprised how more careful they are at work)

Oh and No ive never had that happen to me or ne 1 i know
Sorry Mr. Lawyer dude id tell him to go packing.NO CASE


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## clearance

Lawyers=chip 'em up. Probably a spammer anyways, whatever.


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## BlueRidgeMark

What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.



What do you call 500 lawyers up to their necks in concrete?

Not enough concrete.


Ba-DUM!


NEXT!


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## matty f

Any one who goes near it with the wheel spinning deserves whats comming,the last place i worked for had some twat who came in to do LOLA inspection's on every ones climbing kit,he rolled a 252 and on another ocaision ripped his leg up on the same machine...how the hell he got a job telling every one if there stuff is safe to climb on when hes that incompatent to evan work a simple machine|>? ive spent days on one and they are an easy and safe machine to use, unless your an idiot


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## SinglerM

*Lawyer looking to exploit an injury.*

It seems that most of the people here have already posted common sense responses. This must not be what the lawyer wanted to hear, he hasn't responded to anyone.
Why do lawyers seem to have a difficult time calling accidents "operator error"?
There would be nobody to sue then. Can't make money that way.
It's too bad the guy got hurt, but that doesn't justify sueing an equipment company. 
Sadly, we live in a society where overweight people attempt to sue fast food companies and blame them for their weight problems.
Largely, it seems, because of lawyers like this guy.
We probably won't hear a valid counterpoint from this lawyer. It appears that he was looking for validation from members of this site.
I believe, from the short description that it was operator error.

Regards,
Mitch


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## John464

id be interested in seeing some pictures. always wondered if someone stuck their foot near the grinder how fast it would grind em down


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## bowline

Theres always one.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## BlueRidgeMark

John464 said:


> id be interested in seeing some pictures. always wondered if someone stuck their foot near the grinder how fast it would grind em down




Read about it. See the pictures. And quit laughing. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=23463&highlight=backward


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## RedlineIt

Vermeer 252 has icon stickers that say, among other things "Read The Manual."

Manual tells you not to leave the controls if the cutter wheel is still spinning.

It's pretty cut and dried, your operator violated Vermeer's safety warnings.

You're screwed on that one, Vermeer has a rafts of lawyers smarter than you.

My advice, go after the employer for lack of training.

Smaller pockets than Vermeer, to be sure, but by the time you get them to court you'll have put at least 7 to 10 people out of a job.

50% of lawyers graduated in the bottom half of their class. They end up chasing cases like this.


RedlineIt


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## Ekka

It's sad isn't it guys.

Imagine like Bearclaw, you make a new great thing then want to sell it. What should be a relatively simple well priced object becomes an overpriced plethora of paperwork.

Try to sue the manf if it were made in China!

You are driving your own businesses into the ground.

Heck, I fell off a ladder, got hurt, that must be a case to then.


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## spacemule

I can't believe how much speculation is going on in this thread. . .


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## Steve128

*NYstupgrinder*



> have a client that was hurt by a Vermeer 252



I disagree. Your client was injured by his actions. The stump grinder didn't attack him. 

Nothing flew off the machine, it didn't blow up or catch on fire. No, like a chain saw it is one dangerous machine because of what it is designed to accomplish.

If you jump out of a moving car, you will get injured. If you get around a machine which is still operating, well surprise. I grew up on a farm, never get off a tractor with the pto turning or tractor moving.

Being a novice to this board, I have read up on this site, purchased some books and learned a great deal. What surprised me most was how ignorant I was about the danger in the logging/ tree service industry.

It has been fun reading about new saws, oil ratios, etc. Yet, the threads on what can go wrong has opened my eyes. For which I am very thankful.


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## Ekka

There's been some awful accidents with pto drives, one of the most horrific was farmers getting caught in augers when boring holes for fence posts ... there's no chance to stop it or pull away from it.

That avatar is freaky!


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## TimberJack_7

spacemule said:


> I can't believe how much speculation is going on in this thread. . .





I am still waiting to hear what Mr. Attorney's intentions are. I just got a bad vibe from his post.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might be a duck!

He was probably expecting to get some good info from his question but after reading some of these replies, he may be re-thinking his approach.

Why else would an attorney be posting on this board concerning a specific model of stumpgrinder? To me it is obvious that he is possibly laying the groundwork for some sort of law suit, doing his research. I could be wrong, I have been before, but why the hell else would he even be here?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Not one of you guys gave him the benefit of the doubt. If he's ignorant on the subject of how long a stump grinder flywheel should spin after shut down (and how many lawyers are? (or anyone for that matter)), why shouldn't he check it out?
Do you suppose lawyers sit around and talk about what a bunch of lowlife, drunk, social misfits, arborists are?


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## p goble

*No wheel guard?*

252s come from the factory with a wheel guard for the "operator" who can't remember or see that the wheel is turning. They do tend to get in the way if your trying to get your leg chewed off, so maybe it was wired up to facilitate human dismemberment. Maybe everyone that operates a 252 should have a spotter to tell him "hey jackass, yer teeth are movin" 
Gotta be someone yankin our chain. This guy couldn't be a lawyer.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

Wait a minute, you're suggesting a troll at arboriststie??? No way!
In TM's thread, it was the picture of the fltwheel cover bungeed up that made the biggest impression on me. Forget the blood and gore, disabled safety features scare the crap outta me.


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## p goble

*Pictures?*

Hey Mike, where are the pictures of the machine?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

The thread is like 16 pages long. I'm not looking, or guaranteeing it's still there.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=23463&highlight=backward


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## l2edneck

> Do you suppose lawyers sit around and talk about what a bunch of lowlife, drunk, social misfits, arborists are?




I bet he has opcorn:


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## Eagle1

A full 10 seconds to stop...my 222 take about 2 mins.


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## Jumper

BlueRidgeMark said:


> What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
> 
> A good start.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you call 500 lawyers up to their necks in concrete?
> 
> Not enough concrete.
> 
> 
> Ba-DUM!
> 
> 
> NEXT!



What do you call a group of lawyers skydiving??


SKEET!


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## TexasTimbers

Mike Maas said:


> Do you suppose lawyers sit around and talk about what a bunch of lowlife, drunk, social misfits, arborists are?



No. They don't discriminate. They talk about practically everyone that way. 
I have been around lawyers most of my adult life (no, not because I have been in and out of the penal system) and I can tell you that the majority (majority does not include "all") of them are a fairly disgusting lot.

This attorney was most likely trolling just as a previous poster suggested. Why be afraid to call a spade a spade? "Research"? Of course he is going to do research so he can unjustly sue the "big bad corporation".
Get a grip peeps. Product liability attorneys D-O ... N-O-T ... C-A-R-E about anything but getting a payday ... they could not possibly care less if the product is safe or unsafe..... just win the case and get the big fat check. Let the public pay for it with increased premiums and higher end-user prices.


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## newb

Its always easy to take shots at lawyers, and sometimes fun, however maybe we should slow down and think this one through. We are all aware of the dangers and risks associated with tree work. We think through are trims and removals to minimize risk. There are certain dangers with this job that we just accept, and maybe we don't have to. I remember when the lawn mower industry was told it had to stop a spinning blade when your hand came off the handle. They all cried that we wouldn't be able to afford a lawn mower with that feature. Guess what, They did it and you can still buy a mower for $100.00. Just maybe we don't have to accept a spinning wheel on a stump grinder. Maybe thats a risk we are so used to, but don't have to be. Maybe the manufactures can take that out of our lives and have one less thing for us to worry about. Now , back to slamming lawyers...


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## TexasTimbers

newb said:


> Its always easy to take shots at lawyers, and sometimes fun, however maybe we should slow down and think this one through.



Easy to take shots at lawyers/ Nooooooooooo! i wonder why?

Slow down and thnk things through? I'm glad you got us hotheaded quick-on-the-draw types to slow down and actualy think before we say what we think.
Safety handles on the lawnmowers. Now there is somethig to think about. How many people defeat this "safety" feature right out of the box? Everyone I know practically. I know it's so risky to do so. We lost 7 DIY homeowners just on our block this weekend. Imagine the gaul; mowing ones own lawn. I hope the life insurance companies don't catch on that homeowners take suck awful risks. talk about a rate-up!
And those pesky automobiles. Maybe can live without those spinning wheels. Take those away and you have a virtually safe automobile. Yes, you can still slam your finger in the door, but maybe we could get the Almighty Benevolent Lawyers to have the Omnipotent Courts to have the Evil Corporations weld those risky doors shut. Then we will be safe.
But hark! What shall we do bout those demonic guns!? Guns are unsafe. they kill people. Guns are quite smart. Probably the smartest inanimate objects know to man.
But of course, the lawyers will quit helping us protect ourselves from ourselves when, and ONLY when, they can no longer figure out how to make a buck from it.
Lawyers. Yes, they sure are some honest, noble, idealistic pillars of society.


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## treeguy347

It's too bad that a lot of these cases end up with some lawyer trying to place the respnsibility where it doesn't belong. While we're on lawyer bashing, can we include the juries that are ignorant and gullible enough to go along with them?


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## Steve128

*treeguy347*

I agree with your opinion that juries share some blame. 

If he wants information on tree equipment he can pay for it by hiring a professional in the business. 

He isn't giving any members here free legal advice so why is he looking for a handout?

P.S. As a member of the Texas bar I am offended he came to this site looking for a free meal. 

Spare me he is helping someone. It is his job, bottom line.

Regardless, this topic is taking up my valuable time from deciding what new saw I am going to purchase. Don't need another saw but I dang sure don't have enough!


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## TexasTimbers

Steve128 said:


> Regardless, this topic is taking up my valuable time from deciding what new saw I am going to purchase. Don't need another saw but I dang sure don't have enough!



Ain't that the truth!  

P.S. Be a good attorney (they do exist) .... my sis works directly for the Chief Prosecuting Counsel ... SBOT!

.


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## spacemule

People love to bash lawyers--until they need one in court. A lawyer's job is simply to argue their client's case. They are not in the business of making judgment calls (that's why we don't call them judges). If the case has no merit, the judge will throw it out. If you don't like the laws that give a case merit, then lobby to change them. 

Most of the ridiculous lawsuits one hears of are 95% urban legend, yet the average joe feels compelled to believe every scrap of crap that makes him feel indignant. Pathetic really. Oh, did I mention that the average iq of a lawyer is in the 130's? (Sorry, can't remember where I saw that statistic, but as you know, 95% of statistics are made up on the spot. However, this one seems reasonable.) Seems interesting that the masses feel fit to second guess what one of the more intelligent segments of society does.


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## treeguy347

So about $250 per hour should be a good starting point for our advice. Hmmmm, maybe we can tack on another couple hundred bucks for our support staff....


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## Dadatwins

I once lost a stump removal job to a local yocal that rented a vermeer 252 from rental place and underbid my price on a job. Since I lost the job and was financially *hurt* by the loss of the job, does this qualify me to be part of the huge payout that this lawsuit will surely payout? I think my feelings were *hurt *also since the customer gave me the OK to do the work and then called and canceled the next day.


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## spacemule

Dadatwins said:


> I once lost a stump removal job to a local yocal that rented a vermeer 252 from rental place and underbid my price on a job. Since I lost the job and was financially *hurt* by the loss of the job, does this qualify me to be part of the huge payout that this lawsuit will surely payout? I think my feelings were *hurt *also since the customer gave me the OK to do the work and then called and canceled the next day.


Good luck getting representation for that case. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TimberJack_7

spacemule:
Oh said:


> Sweet! I can quit my tree job and become a lawyer!
> 
> I still don't qualify for mensa, damn.


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## TexasTimbers

Geeeeeeeeeeeeez. Some people are absolute complete morons to espouse some of the crap they sling around defending a group of people, that they see as elite. Pettyfogger shysters for filthy lucre most of them. And if you believe that everything is as cut and dry and black and white as "if it has no merit the judge will throw it out" yes only if there is no money or power behind it. If it's the US Attorney trying to stick it to a guy who dared challenge the government on an "off-limits" issue or who "almost certainly" persues an avenue which jepordizes their monopoly in certain economic realms, or attempts to expose crimes in high places ad infintum then it doesn't make a damn about evidence. They will manufacture it to put the enemy of the state away in a dark hole somewhere, if not six feet under.
Yeah, I have seen too many movies. Right. 
I'm through with this naivete. Live in your dream world I'm going to go open up the muffler on my 372XP while you live in your pretend world.


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## spacemule

Feeling indignant there, Tex? :hmm3grin2orange:


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## hobby climber

Q)- How do can you tell a lawyer is on his day off?

A)- He's got his hands in his own pockets!


Sorry, couldn't resist.  BTW a lawyer friend of mine told me that one! HC


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## buff

The other day a friend of mine was out at the cemetery with his preschool child. The boy ask for help with reading one of the stones so his father read it for him. "Here lies a lawyer and a good man." The boy looked silently at the stone before replying "there does not look like enough room for two people."


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## coveredinsap

Say there was an emergency....and a small child somehow ended up running toward one of these units, and though you immediately shut the unit down and tried to stop the child from contacting the unit....to no avail because the blade keeps spinning for 10 seconds.....

Now say it was your child....

I daresay you'd be looking at things in a different light, and if you were smart, contacting an attorney yourself.

It's one thing to mock idiot lawyers. It's idiotic to mock all lawyers.


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## Dixie1

not all lawyers make $250/hour. Our state attorneys make somewhere in the $40,000 not much for having to go to school for 7 years. please be kind, not all of them are heartless money grubbing jerks. I know, my husband it one of the nice ones.


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## buff

What state are you in. I have a friend that needs a divorce in Florida.


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## musch

I work for attorneys, so this is an area I am very well versed in.
Most are decent people.
The cutthroats tend to gravitate toward personal injury,
The SUPER cutthroats tend towards high level corporate clients
Liberal minded attorneys tend towards more criminal defense
The money-minded in that group tend to take mostly DUI cases.

On the whole, I would rate the attorneys I know right in the average of business professionals i/e white collar types. 
What I find fascinating is how little white collar professionals understand about blue collar issues. 
Virtually none of the attorneys I know, could begin to describe arboriculture, for example, or plumbing, or engine repair. 
Just my humble observations.


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## buff

I wish that the firm you work for was representative of all lawyers or even just a few. But it is not. Criminal lawyers and those who defend people charged with a DUI spend a career helping guilty people escape justice. We are talking about drunks who are loosing their license to drive all the way to drunks who kill people. Personal injury lawyers spend a lot of time making injuries out of nothing and pumping up small injuries to larger ones by shifting clients to "their" doctors. "Their" doctors are doctors they have in their back pockets for whatever reason. One doctor I knew about was obligated to a firm for getting him out of a malpractice suit where he actually did injure a patient. Divorce lawyers make their money by stripping a man of everything he has worked for all of his life. When it comes time to divide assets, the only assets I ever saw divided was what the man owned. I never have seen a woman anti up any money or property in a divorce. I guess maybe some of you know a rare exception somewhere. But I do not. Lawyers who are not busy manufacturing their "reasonable doubt" are busy looking for an angle or a corner to cut or some technicality to get guilty people off. It is how they make their money.


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## musch

buff said:


> I wish that the firm you work for was representative of all lawyers or even just a few. But it is not. Criminal lawyers and those who defend people charged with a DUI spend a career helping guilty people escape justice. We are talking about drunks who are loosing their license to drive all the way to drunks who kill people. Personal injury lawyers spend a lot of time making injuries out of nothing and pumping up small injuries to larger ones by shifting clients to "their" doctors. "Their" doctors are doctors they have in their back pockets for whatever reason. One doctor I knew about was obligated to a firm for getting him out of a malpractice suit where he actually did injure a patient. Divorce lawyers make their money by stripping a man of everything he has worked for all of his life. When it comes time to divide assets, the only assets I ever saw divided was what the man owned. I never have seen a woman anti up any money or property in a divorce. I guess maybe some of you know a rare exception somewhere. But I do not. Lawyers who are not busy manufacturing their "reasonable doubt" are busy looking for an angle or a corner to cut or some technicality to get guilty people off. It is how they make their money.



Well, I spend about 50 hours a week in the business, and quite frankly, I just don't see what you are referring to.
Maybe it is a better system here in Wisconsin, maybe you are bitter about something, I don't know. Where do you get all of this knowledge from? Can you actually point to a case? Because, honestly, it sounds like empty rhetoric to me. I felt the same way about criminal law, before actually doing it full time.


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## buff

I work 50 hours a week in my business too. You sound like the man who played piano downstairs and never knew what what was going on upstairs. If you are a lawyer, you know very well what I am talking about. You just do not want to admit it.


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## musch

Im not a lawyer, I'm not even an apologist for lawyers, but nice way to avoid my point.

I have plenty of real life stories that counter your opinion, but since you can't back it up with anything other than rhetoric, I assume you are just making all this up.

The fact is, you are misinformed. 
My point had nothing to do with the number of hours I work, it was that I have vast experience in the field, something that you obviously do not.

Just a reminder. 
In the United States of America we operate under a document of principles known as the Constitution. 
According to that document, those accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty.
Although it seems you would see things otherwise, it is the job of the government to prove the validity of a case that they bring against a criminal defendant. 
If there were not defense attorneys and their ilk, there is/would be no check and balance to prevent the onset of tyranny, and the ultimate destruction of the bill of rights. 
The job of a prosecutor is to pursue justice. The job of defense council is to defend their client to the best of their ability, regardless of their guilt and innocence. 

Since you asked, I spend a great deal of my time telling attorneys just how guilty their clients are. These clients always see justice in some form. 

You obviously do not understand the basics of our justice system, but if you are unwilling to divulge the most basic information (such as what part of the country you live in) it is impossible to debate you rationally like a gentleman.

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but it sounds to me like you are angry and bitter, and as long as you can point the finger at someone (attorneys) it helps you feel better about your limited view of our justice system.

There are some stories and anecdotes that back up two different views, one that justice is not swift or strong enough, and another that those accused of crimes do not receive a fair defense. But unless you can bring up specifics, or at least something beyond vague generalities, my continued debate is speculation.


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## buff

I have a degree in criminal justice and I know all about how the system works. You want a case. Look at O.J. Simpson. *Sure hope they find the right guy. * I thought about becoming a lawyer once but I just could not make a living out of getting drunks and scum off by protecting their constitutional rights. Sorry if that sounds harsh and bitter. Wait until a piece of scum with constitutional rights rapes, mutilates and murders your daughter. How intellectual do you think you are going to be about that?


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## buff

I have a degree in criminal justice and I know all about how the system works. You want a case. Look at O.J. Simpson. *Sure hope they find the right guy. * I thought about becoming a lawyer once but I just could not make a living out of getting drunks and scum off by protecting their constitutional rights. Sorry if that sounds harsh and bitter. Wait until a piece of scum with constitutional rights rapes, mutilates and murders your daughter. How intellectual do you think you are going to be about that? I know you will believe the perp is innocent until proven guilty. But your daughter was innocent too.


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## spacemule

Buff seems to be a few grunts short of a $hit.


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## buff

spacemule....Go get caught up with your probation officer before he hauls you in again.


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## spacemule

Ha ha. You're a funny guy buff. Did you come up with that all by yourself?


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## TackleTree

How high up is your "high horse" buff? Not all lawyers represent scum and the guilty looking for a way out. What about the lawyers trying to put rapist, murderers behind bars? Why not try that buff? 

"I apologize if this sounds harsh, but it sounds to me like you are angry and bitter, and as long as you can point the finger at someone (attorneys) it helps you feel better about your limited view of our justice system."

Yes it seems so! Buff has a bad habit of thinking he is better than most and isnt shy about it.


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## musch

Um, you know "all about the system" and the best example you can bring up is a 15 year old case that the entire world saw on television?

By the way, were you on the OJ jury?

You can get a criminal justice degree on the internet. 
Just cause Sally Struthers says so doesnt make you an expert.

My challenge stands. Bring up a pertinent issue. We'll discuss it.
Without getting personal.

You can bring up the rhetorical example of my ficticious daughter.
My answer is as follows - would I want to kill the scumbag? Absolutely.
Thats why we have judges and jurys. To be OBJECTIVE.

Here's one for you.
You live in Texas, and have a record of petty theft. 
Your car breaks down, and you are walking along the road.
A sherriffs deputy sees you, at the same time driving from a murder scene. 
No witnesses. 
He picks you up, checks your record. You have no alibi, and were in the neighborhood. 

Guess you deserve the chair huh?


I want to ask you an absolutely SERIOUS question.
Do you believe in upholding the constitution? 
And if so - explain to me - IN DETAIL
HOW CAN A LAWYER "GET A GUILTY PERSON OFF"
Do you think they hold some kind of magician like charm over the rest of us?
And don't say some B.S. like "loopholes" 
Give me an example of one. 
YOU WROTE IT - "I know the system" so PROVE it.
Or are you just so much hot angry air.


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## clearance

Buffy, I was going to come up with something witty and clever, but I see you have already been slapped down, stay down. Too funny.


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## Ekka

Many times lawyers have that awful task of taking on the perps case and pleading and begging .... they know their guilty but just trying to get off on a lessor charge or time.

Nothing wrong with that. If I lost my licence and a lawyer could get me a lighter conviction then it's worth it.

Also, it's the defending lawyers role to keep a check on facts and falacies, imagine some nut case telling fibs in the chair.

I believe there's one less perp in a canadian school that needs a lawyer now though, there's just some cases that are best terminated immediately I reckon. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## TexasTimbers

"innocent until proven guilty" is mostly a myth. It is the De Jure maxim which is the alleged underpinning of our system of jurisprudence in this so-called republic. But for the most part, the De Facto reality is that a man must prove his innocence.
Try sitting through your own trial without a lawyer, and saying nothing to defend yourself, even if the prosecution has but cirumstantial evidence, or even NO evidence. You would think if they have no "proof" then even if you do nothing you are innocent unless they prove thier case eh?
Hah. Fella, you are going down.
If you have the money to hire the big $$$ defense then yes you can be, depending on the case, and depending on if it is the government you wronged (your screwed here), fairly innocent until proven guilty, but overall, especially for the little guy, you are most assuredly guilty until you convince a jury that you are not.


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## buff

Thank God for all those lawyers who are protecting innocent people. If you will sit in a court room one day you will see the parade of innocent people in need of a lawyer. The funny thing is, none of them are guilty and need a lawyer to prove it. All of you guys need to spend less on beer and get caught up on your child support. Otherwise you will need a lawyer.


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## TackleTree

what is it with you and child support? You mention this on a consistant basis. Please explain without blaming someone or something else. I have no kids, and I am sure most that do on this site take care of their kids.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

TackleTree said:


> what is it with you and child support? You mention this on a consistant basis. Please explain without blaming someone or something else. I have no kids, and I am sure most that do on this site take care of their kids.


Sounds like she's a little bitter about her ex-husband. But Buff, don't lump us all into one group. Just because we drink a lot of beer, cheat on our spouses every chance we get, and then don't take any responsibility, doesn't mean we're all bad. We can fix cars, lift heavy objects, and mow the lawn.


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## Steve128

*Buff*

No desire to start an argument but really 



> All of you guys need to spend less on beer and get caught up on your child support. Otherwise you will need a lawyer (by Buff)



Men are just for bank account deposits?  

Don't children really need more TIME with their father's and mother's?

I am very disappointed you seem so willing to fight for "innocent" victim's yet generalize about men in such negative terms.

Can we get back to important topics like "For the money, what is as good or better than a Dolmar 7900 ?


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## buff

I had to laugh at that one Mike Maas. 

Steve128...Where did you get the idea that I am interested in fighting for the rights of the "innocent?"


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## TackleTree

How many personalities do you have anyway there Buff?


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## Ekka

buff said:


> All of you guys need to spend less on beer and get caught up on your child support.



Bugger, I had a leak in one of my kegs, and that's a lot of beer wasted, oh well, kids'll have to wait longer now!!!!!


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## musch

Still waiting...


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## Ekka

Hey Buff

I think you mis-spelt the location you're from.

It should be XXXX shouldn't it?


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## musch

buff said:


> Thank God for all those lawyers who are protecting innocent people. If you will sit in a court room one day you will see the parade of innocent people in need of a lawyer. The funny thing is, none of them are guilty and need a lawyer to prove it. All of you guys need to spend less on beer and get caught up on your child support. Otherwise you will need a lawyer.



So, I'll hit this one out of the park too.

Cops are never wrong.
D.A.s are always fair.
Innocent people are never charged with a crime.
You wanted to be a cop (thus the criminal justice degree) but failed the psychological eval.
You won't tell us where you live, because someone might track you down, and hit you up for all the past due alimony and child support.

just a guess.


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## juststumps

coveredinsap said:


> Say there was an emergency....and a small child somehow ended up running toward one of these units, and though you immediately shut the unit down and tried to stop the child from contacting the unit....to no avail because the blade keeps spinning for 10 seconds.....
> 
> Now say it was your child....
> 
> I daresay you'd be looking at things in a different light, and if you were smart, contacting an attorney yourself.
> 
> It's one thing to mock idiot lawyers. It's idiotic to mock all lawyers.


stopping a grinders wheel quick,, this will work with all grinders

1: you bury the wheel....you disengage the clutch, than plant the wheel..

2: or you just plant the wheel, clutch in, stall the motor..

3: or you turn the key off,, plant the wheel...

4: from the operators manual for a 352sc vermeer on quick stopping the wheel
1 reduce engine speed to idle
2 disengage cutter wheel drive
3 lower cutter wheel into the ground or stump until wheel stops

1, 2, 3, are faster than option 4...

you can really stop a wheel really quick!!! way less than 10 seconds!!!


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## juststumps

Ekka said:


> Bugger, I had a leak in one of my kegs, and that's a lot of beer wasted, oh well, kids'll have to wait longer now!!!!!



ekka, alcohol abuse at its worst!!!!!


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## Bigstumps

coveredinsap said:


> Say there was an emergency....and a small child somehow ended up running toward one of these units, and though you immediately shut the unit down and tried to stop the child from contacting the unit....to no avail because the blade keeps spinning for 10 seconds.....
> 
> Now say it was your child....
> 
> I daresay you'd be looking at things in a different light, and if you were smart, contacting an attorney yourself.
> 
> It's one thing to mock idiot lawyers. It's idiotic to mock all lawyers.



That is the definition of an accident. Not a liability case. If the kid runs straight into a spinning cutterwheel - natural selection. Natures way of thinning the herd!! 

What would you possibly contact an attorney about??? " I wasn't paying close enough attention to my child and now he is hurt so someone else has to pay for my mistake to make me feel better and give me some financial reward"


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## Doctor Dave

Bigstumps said:


> That is the definition of an accident. Not a liability case. If the kid runs straight into a spinning cutterwheel - natural selection. Natures way of thinning the herd!!
> 
> What would you possibly contact an attorney about??? " I wasn't paying close enough attention to my child and now he is hurt so someone else has to pay for my mistake to make me feel better and give me some financial reward"



While you are being a bit cavalier about a ground -up kid, of course the tree service would be sued--as would Vermeer! Suing is not collecting, though.

Cross examination (grinder operator):

Did you tell the owner you were working?

Did you warn her of the dangers?

When you saw the kids' bike, did you ask about where the kid would be?

Did you or a co-worker maintain a safe area with tape, cones, signage, and the like?

Even if the kid was told by all concerned to stay away, broke out of a locked room, kicked his mom in the knee, went under the tape, and ran into the wheel, the jury would award something. 

How about this one:

Skidder operator, learned on the job, no training, no safety gear, backs up a running chipper with the chute open, co-worker directing him back somehow ends up in the chute, keeps himself from being chipped by spread-eagling against the edge? Skidder is a gypo rig, questionable brakes, levers and pedals are random metal scraps welded on, jobsite (and everything, including scrap serving as a clutch) covered in a foot of mud?

Describes an incident at a tree service I worked for 20 years ago. My foot slipped off the clutch. Since then I've grown increasingly safety conscious. Especially now that it's me that pays the insurance premium. Unfortunately, some work environments accept near-misses as "part of the job", and instead of a safety meeting, everyone retires to the tavern for a few extra beers.


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## OTG BOSTON

TackleTree said:


> what is it with you and child support? You mention this on a consistant basis. Please explain without blaming someone or something else. I have no kids, and I am sure most that do on this site take care of their kids.



Read the other posts he has made. Bitter and miserable are just a few adjectives that come to mind.................almost forgot, SELF-RIGHTOUS

He has a CJ degree on this thread, and one in Economics on another..........

I've been on both sides of the law and I can honestly say the lawyers involved were just doing their jobs. The way we all try to, to the best of our abilities.


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## Ekka

Doctor Dave said:


> Unfortunately, some work environments accept near-misses as "part of the job", and instead of a safety meeting, everyone retires to the tavern for a few extra beers.



 too true


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## buff

OTG BOSTON......If you mean that lawyers try their best to get guilty people off, I agree. Another thing, if you can get those prison tattoos removed you will get more work.


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## squisher

Dude you are hilarious. You'd better hope you never end up in prison.


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## OTG BOSTON

buff said:


> OTG BOSTON......If you mean that lawyers try their best to get guilty people off, I agree. Another thing, if you can get those prison tattoos removed you will get more work.



Yeah guy, thats the way the system works. I didn't make it up, but I'm smart enough to work within it. 
you're obviously:bang: 

BTW none of my Tats came from prison.......and I have plenty of work


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## buff

OTG BOSTON said:


> He has a CJ degree on this thread, and one in Economics on another..........



I have an MBA too.


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## TackleTree

buff said:


> I have an MBA too.



Sure don't act like an educated man but rather like a simple minded school kid. I really think there has to be a better way, more constructive way to use your time. And please buff spare me the speach about all you are because I have already waded throught that crap.


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## buff

You need to spend less money on drugs and more on your child support.


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## musch

buff said:


> You need to spend less money on drugs and more on your child support.


I think I just figured it out, do you have tourettes?


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## buff

musch said:


> I think I just figured it out, do you have tourettes?



No but I think your mama does.


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## musch

buff said:


> No but I think your mama does.


Wow. 

     

What else ya got. Some your mama jokes? What is this, 1978?

Lets see... buff, you're so ugly, when you were born, the doctor slapped your mama!


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## clearance

Buffy, you are one of the most pompous mutts ever on this site, as far as your Momma goes, the best part of you must have run down her leg.


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## OTG BOSTON

musch said:


> I think I just figured it out, do you have tourettes?




excellent diagnosis doctor!! I believe you hit the nail on the head


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## TackleTree

Originally Posted by buff
You need to spend less money on drugs and more on your child support.
No but I think your mama does. 

Sounds educated to me! HA


Buff do us all a favor and get laid! I dont care with who, man or a woman, which ever you prefer, but dang. Why don't you delete this site from your computer! Or maybe just don't post for a while until you can come up with better comebacks.


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## Doctor Dave

TackleTree said:


> Sure don't act like an educated man but rather like a simple minded school kid. I really think there has to be a better way, more constructive way to use your time. And please buff spare me the speach about all you are because I have already waded throught that crap.



The mark of a truely educated person is humility whilst spreading one's knowledge around. Dropping ones educational achievements is really in poor taste, and does nothing to advance an argument. Look at "Condi" Rice---pumped up as super intelligent, top education, Ph.D., etc. etc., and forced to lie over and over by her masters about non-existent nuclear threats to justify Iraq II. But she is really intelligent, top schools, Ph. D., ...

Ph.D. : Piled Higher and Deeper

Story: I was talking to a woman from the "wrong" line at a public comment event regarding a big Forest Service timber sale. She didn't know beans about the real reason for the sale (a bark beetle outbreak on marginal roadless timberland in northern WA that had, in fact, ended; the Forest Service was using it as a pretext for a massive salvage plan, as if the outbreak was still going, to please politicians wanting more federal "timber welfare"; the sale would lose money and do nothing to address forest conditions except in the sale areas--which would be mainly clearcut; no trees, no "forest health" crisis). 

I tried to tell her that once the trees were dead, they weren't fuel for the outbreak anymore; she insisted that they were "bug food" and had to be cut. I made the mistake of "pulling rank", saying that I was studying them in school and therefore blah blah blah. 

Reply?

"Well whoop-de-doo!"


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## TackleTree

Lol


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## buff

*?*​


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## Plant Manager

*Enough already*

I dont get on the site often but I saw this thread about a Vermeer 252 and thought "hey I use to work with one of those.....I wonder how the poor guy got hurt" I went back in time 3 or so pages and I too got caught up in the ripping. Like an accident ,I couldnt look away. 

Leave Buffy the Vindictive Slayer, alone he/she obviously has some issues to come to grips with.

Dont let arssholes like this take us off track

Even the stench of a dead animal goes away with time


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## buff

Plant Manager......stop living with your mother and get a real got.


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## Tree Machine

Plant said:


> Dont let arssholes like this take us off track


Yes, wasn't the thread about someone stepping into the spinning wheel of a 252 and about some lawyer wanting info so as to best advise the client who is considering bringing suit against Vermeer. Yes?


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## TexasTimbers

Tree Machine said:


> Yes, wasn't the thread about someone stepping into the spinning wheel of a 252 and about some lawyer wanting info so as to best advise the client who is considering bringing suit against Vermeer. Yes?



Yes, and I still say the lawyer is a lowlife scumbag, there is no cause of action for a product liability case, and buff has got you all in an uproar and he is nothing more than a 17 - 20 year old kid with nothing better to do than get y'al all riled up. :rockn: 

That is all your honor. :jester:


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## turnkey4099

TexasTimbers said:


> Yes, and I still say the lawyer is a lowlife scumbag, there is no cause of action for a product liability case, and buff has got you all in an uproar and he is nothing more than a 17 - 20 year old kid with nothing better to do than get y'al all riled up. :rockn:
> 
> That is all your honor. :jester:



My opinion of the lawyer is that he is looking at making a mint on a productu liability suit. Taking on contingency. That is the problem with the current system. The lawyer wins big if he wins but only loses a bit of time on a loss. Meanwhile the sued party pays, and pays, and pays while the suit drags on. He loses even if he wins.

Harry K


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## Bigstumps

We are all paying for this contingency program every time we buy something and the cost of liability insurance is figured into the cost by the mfg. The only ones that win are the lawyers and the insurance companies.

Congress will never stop it as they are mostly lawyers. God help us if John Edwards gets into the White House!!


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## abbeystump

*Man and Dog killed by stump grinder*

A man who tried to save his friend's dog from being pulled into the blade of a stump grinder was caught in the machine and killed Sunday morning at a hunting camp area east of Lake Wales.

Robert J. Wagner, 25, of Port St. Lucie, was with a friend, John Santilli, at a hunting camp in the River Ranch area and was using a stump grinder to grind down palmetto stumps when the accident happened about 9:40 a.m., Polk County sheriff's spokeswoman Donna Wood said.

Santilli's 6-month-old Weimaraner, Maggie, was tied by a leash to a tree and got too close to the machine. Her leash became entangled, reeling her in, according to Wood.

Wagner tried to free her and was also entangled and was cut by the blade. He died of lacerations and major head and body trauma, Wood said. He died before emergency workers arrived.

The dog also died, Wood said.

Wagner and Santilli, who is also from Port. St. Lucie, had arrived at the hunting camp Saturday morning. The campsite is in woods about 1.7 miles off County Road 630 East. Deputies had to use four-wheel drive vehicles to get to the camp, Wood said.

Polk County Emergency Medical Services and firefighters also were sent to the camp, Wood said.

The Vermeer SC252 stump grinder, according to the Vermeer company's Web site, is a gas-powered model that weighs about

1,000 pounds, is 35 inches wide and has a vertical wheel blade. It can be hauled behind a truck, and is designed to be narrow so that it can maneuver in tight spaces to get to tree stumps.


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## TexasTimbers

Why post it here? Are you saying the machine is at fault ???


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## Tree Machine

TexasTimbers said:


> Why post it here? Are you saying the machine is at fault ???


I take it as, if you put yourself in the proximity of the spinning wheel, and you get too close, you can get maimed or killed.

The machine was clearly not at 'fault'.

My heart goes out to the man. If you tangle with the spinning grinder wheel, it is by the grace of God if you survive it. I am so sorry for both he and his pet.


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## TexasTimbers

I just realized this thread was FOR injuries and fatalities. at first i thought it was just for discussing libility issues. my bad. i should learn to read.


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## dontbasap

I understand it's been so cold in NY that the lawyers have their hands in their own pockets for a change !


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## Richard J

*All attorney*

Suck The are like bats what all they can get.He is sueing some poor sole trying to make a living.Repersenting a Mexico boarder crosser too.Screw him hes a JACK AS______________.


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## B-Edwards

BlueRidgeMark said it all at the start of this thread no more really needs saying.


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## coydog

B-Edwards said:


> BlueRidgeMark said it all at the start of this thread no more really needs saying.


where is he anyway?


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## SRT-Tech

so did this idiot lawyer "stupgrinder" (whats a "stup" anyways?) get all the info he needs? or did he realize that he'd best stick to defending crack addicts and DUI's, instead of taking on what was clearly OPERATOR error, and not the machines fault...? 


"stup"id lawyer....


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## SRT-Tech

buff said:


> Plant Manager......stop living with your mother and get a real got.


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## ben14826

SRT-Tech said:


> "stup"id lawyer....




I just cant imagine what poor buff has been through to maim him into his current state. Can you imagine having nothing better to do than sitting on your fat rear end telling everyone you have three degrees and how smart you are, when you can't even speak in sentences and get past your mama and child support jokes? Everyone else should feel pretty good about themselves after contemplating for a bit about his state of affairs.


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