# Building my own OWB - the lowdown



## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

ALLLL RIGHT.


need to heat ~8000 sq ft. 3 buildings, 4 zones. one building might need 3 zones, the 2nd zone coming from heating the floor if i pour the floor with the plumbing in it.anyways...

first some values to work with
7.48 gallons in 1 cbft of displacement
Doing some quick math. 

the cl5036 is using 31 cubic ft of firebox to heat 196 gallons of water, which is 26 cbft.
nice. except we don't know what size the waterjacket is. the wj needs to hold the water, plus the firebox. call 31 and 26 60 for easy math....

hmm, the 6048's fb is, 60 cbft. interesting. now the 7260, the fb is roughly 100 cbft. heating 764 gallons. 

Doing some more quick math, back to the 5036, they're heating 196 gallon with 31 cbft of firebox. So, 196/31 is ~ 6.32. using 1 cbft of firebox to heat 6.3gallons of water. the 6048 is 6.33, and the 7260 is 7.64. the bigger one theyre trying to heat more water with the same firebox displacement. 

SOO, i figured of making a 6x5x4 fb, which is ~ 120 cbft. and there's 102 Cbft in 764 gallons of water. so i need ~ 222 cbft of water jacket. A 7x6.5x5 works out to 225. 

Doing some more scribbling and math. I figured i'd make my firebox and wj out 3/8" thick mild steel. Probably overkill, but, if i'm going to spend my time, may as well make it thicker. If we all follow the warranty rules, your stuff always breaks just after the warranty expries. 

Once again, some more math work. 4x8 is 32sqft. i need 322sq ft. so figure 10 or 11 sheets. I can get 2nd's for $250 a sheet. Figure $3000 in steel. I have loads of tin skirting to put around it and make a roof so it doesn't look all ghetto style.

$3000 in wj and fb
$200 in sprayfoam?
$1072 for each run of 100'Ft 1" pex runs (insulation and sleeve, supply and return)
$500 in copper plumping (may be off here, havn't done any plumbing measuring yet)
$200 for an aquatstat from honeywell. (which makes the boiler automatic and efficient, so what if it's not fancy push button digital,and run 2 thermostats for failsafe from boilover...)

few dollars for some fiberglass rope for a airtight door seal. 
few dollars for a heavy solenoid to flip the damper.
i have loads of tiny squirrel cage fans for a damper blower.
i have loads of 20x20 heat exchangers for the buildings. Enough to setup ontop of each furnace, then have 10 setup in series in each house to have radiant heat if desired. 
dad has collected x35 1" ball valves in the past, all new... plenty to do a 4zone system. and setup for add-on/repairs without dumping the system.
i've collected 4 circulation pumps from where i work. 
we have 9 rolls of mig wire someone gave us, they're 60lbs rolls. 
If it gets fancy, may need zoning valves, or some temp reguatlors for something.
few dollars for probably 5 temp gauges. 
some other odds and ends.
Besides that, am i missing anything? math not right? i think i'm in the ball park figure.
for digging the trenches, my shovel has hoses 
figure i'd have it started in april and done and installed somewhere in october. working few hours everyweeknight, then working on weekends.

i guess 1.25" pex is needed for like 300'+ runs.
and a tech i talked to at centralboiler said only bury the centralpex 6-8" deep. sounds a bit shallow IMO. i was thinking at least 24" with like 8-12" of sand packed around it. i'll be working in a low water table maybe 20Ft above any standing ponds in the area.

One question though, the boiler is going to be above one house, and below another house. In theory couldn't i put the vent in the plumbing at the highest house? or just add a long pipe on the top of the boiler itself so it's higher then any point in the system? same solution right?. 


Or i guess spend $16,000 on the 7260, and still need to buy more for the system.

In my opinion, even with the time and work involved, it's worth the savings, and in the end, 1 fire instead of 5, and the hazard is outside.


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## blakey (Dec 29, 2008)

Sounds like all you're missing is a crapload of wood, that beast will be hungry!


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## cleanburn (Dec 29, 2008)

You could make a smaller or larger waterjacket. The only major thing you need to figure out is how large your firebox needs to be for your heatload. Figure out how many BTUs you need then figure there are about 5000BTUs in a pound of wood, then figure out how many pounds of wood you need then you can figure out how big your firebox should be. The water capacity can vary and it will depend on how many BTUs you want to store in that water jacket, if you store more your stove will cycle less....You can figure out how many BTUs you want to store in your water too then figure out how many gallons you want.


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

good pointer on the BTU cleanburn.

would a smaller wj and storage tanks in the house of each zone be the same as no storagetanks and a large wj?

i figure i could use the tanks in the garage, and they'll heat the garage.
2birds 1 stone?

or keep the wj the same size, and still use large storage tanks?

if you say water holds BTU potential, and it's safe to have a smaller wj and have the furnace cycle more, then who says i couldn't use this tiny 120 gallon boiler i got for free, and just have monster insulated water tanks in the garage's of the zones? 

If it doesn't perform, at least the firehazard will be outside. On top of that, no matter what boiler i use, the same PEX and the same plumbing needs to be done in the houses. 

with 1 gallon of water weighing 8.3334 lbs....
so take the reciprocal? 0.1199 gallons in 1 pound?
for 1" pex. pi*.25x12 = 9.42 Cubic inches of water in 12 inches of 1" pex?
with 232 cubic inches in 1 gallon of water.
according to these figures it takes 180BTU to raise water from freezing to boiling.... 1 BTU to raise 1 lb of water 1degree. I was told central pex looses 5-10 degrees for every 100F. So, 400' of pex, means 40 degree loss all the itme. so i'm always needed to waste 40BTU's of wood to maintain 180F water? sound right?


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## MNfarmer (Dec 29, 2008)

I priced a CB with the thermo pex and they told me 1 degree heat loss per 100 ft. 5-10 seems REALLY high to me:jawdrop:


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

MNfarmer said:


> I priced a CB with the thermo pex and they told me 1 degree heat loss per 100 ft. 5-10 seems REALLY high to me:jawdrop:



centralpex, not thermopex


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## DLav (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> ALLLL RIGHT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Trial,

I'm pretty new to the OWB game, but I can tell you a little bit that I learned so far. I priced every type of underground pipe there is, and obviously you get what you pay for. When I here ppl saying the snow is melting over the trench where they buried their pipe it makes me wonder how much heat loss does it take to warm the trench enough to melt the snow?? That sounds crazy to me, I'd be sick if I looked out and saw that happening. They must have used low-grade pipe. I bought mine from Foam Plus in Bitely MI. I see your in Mich, so if its not too far from you, you might want to check it out. Their online price with shipping is higher, but if you pick it up yourself, its very reasonable. I paid $623 for 336 feet of the foam, that is only the insulation, you'll need PVC and PEX besides. Foam Plus also had the best price I saw on PEX, unfortunately I had already purchased my PEX at another place. Also when you pick it up, the foam is in 8 foot pieces instead of 4 foot when they ship it. I bought 6" PVC sch 40 SDR from a wholesaler in Potterville, (Stremler Tile) the green SDR was 2 something a foot, the SDR has bell ends so you don't need fittings, just lots of glue and primer. The PEX in Lansing was about $1 a foot, for 1", but I could have done better at Foam Plus. I did need some 45 degree elbows. Altogether I ended up with about $6 per foot into my underground pipe. When I first installed it, I didn't have the entire trench backfilled when I started using the boiler and it snowed. Snow layed right on the PVC and didn't melt, I don't know what the R-value is, but it has to be pretty high. I have 2 runs about 100 foot, and 1 run about 130'. I put mine down deep 5 - 6 foot, I don't really have a water problem and my dad has a backhoe, so it only cost me my time and some fuel. I was mostly working with the frost/heave theory, I didn't want to buy sand and I didn't want the frost pushing a rock into the pipe. Plus I like playing with a backhoe and I got a little carried away.

Copper has gone way down right now. I did all my inside work in copper. I didn't install temp guages when I put it in and I'm kicking myself for it, I'm going to put some in after I shut it down in the spring, right now I'm using a piece of junk IR thermometer from Harbor Freight.

Good luck with your project, hope you post some pics of it.


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

H2O oasis wants 1.49 for centralpex pipe. $6.somecents for 8ft insulation, and 80 cents for the sleeve...


snow on the pvc and didn't melt? no insulation was on it or anything? i may be confused? Too bad you didn't have temp gauges. you could measure your loss if you closed everything off :S

I suppose ifyou live by you pay what you get, maybe i would be better off and buying the ultimate therompex? like people have mentioned, that's rated for 1 degree drop every 100'...

we have lots of sand. I asked my dad one time how many yards of sand he's dug up and sold. he went thru the books one day and lost count after 800,000...


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## cleanburn (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> good pointer on the BTU cleanburn.
> 
> would a smaller wj and storage tanks in the house of each zone be the same as no storagetanks and a large wj?
> 
> ...



I'd be surprised if you actually lose that much heat per foot for pex....:jawdrop: 

But yeah it would be the same thing for storage tanks, but also remember your waterjacket would be outside there in the cold, where maybe the heatloss from your pex would be made up since your tanks would be in your garage or somewhere warm....depends on how good your housing around your stove is too....


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## cleanburn (Dec 29, 2008)

cleanburn said:


> I'd be surprised if you actually lose that much heat per foot for pex....:jawdrop:
> 
> But yeah it would be the same thing for storage tanks, but also remember your waterjacket would be outside there in the cold, where maybe the heatloss from your pex would be made up since your tanks would be in your garage or somewhere warm....depends on how good your housing around your stove is too....



Oh and you have to move that water from your stove through your pex anyways, right?


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## cleanburn (Dec 29, 2008)

Oh and if you put your aquastat on your storage tanks instead of on your waterjacket you could reduce your stove from cycling more too  Just think of your storage tanks as a remote waterjacket and put your aquastats there, then once your heat is all stored and happy at 185F (or whatever you want your water at) then your stove shuts off and not before


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## DLav (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> H2O oasis wants 1.49 for centralpex pipe. $6.somecents for 8ft insulation, and 80 cents for the sleeve...
> 
> 
> snow on the pvc and didn't melt? no insulation was on it or anything? i may be confused? Too bad you didn't have temp gauges. you could measure your loss if you closed everything off :S
> ...




My PEX is surrounded by polystyrene insulation which is encased in PVC. There was 180 degree water flowing through the PEX with 3 inches of snow laying on top of the PVC and it didn't melt, it was like that for days, it was still that way when I backfilled it. You said you were expecting to spend $1072 for 100' section, I have about $600 in a 100' section. I had to spend some time putting it together, where the commercially made stuff is ready to install when you get it. My dad is installing an OWB and has his pipe in the ground, he paid about $12 a foot for it. I ordered a better IR, when he gets his up and running I'm going to compare the temp drops between his setup and mine. Then I'll know for sure how it compares. I'm not trying to sell you this stuff, just letting you know an option.


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

cleanburn

good idea with putting the aquastats inside the building at the storage tanks. I might acutally do that. I suppose as long as the pumps move the water quick enough, i shouldn't have a boil problem at the burner itself. Honestly i would install 2, a lowtemp one inside set at 170-180, and then a 2nd one for a shutoff max of 195-200F for failsafe boilover. Something i would like to see on a system that costs thousands......
I also plan on going berserk with sprayfoam on the boilers waterjacket 

Dlav, i dunno if i can use pvc pipe, my ground is quite uneven. maybe i could get by, but i doubt it. i gotta dodge obstacles and such. I might need to stick with pex surrounded with flexible insulation and flexible sleeve.... Maybe if i can buy the 1" central pex for $1/foot from that place in bitley, not much, but something to save money.


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## DLav (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> cleanburn
> 
> good idea with putting the aquastats inside the building at the storage tanks. I might acutally do that. I suppose as long as the pumps move the water quick enough, i shouldn't have a boil problem at the burner itself. Honestly i would install 2, a lowtemp one inside set at 170-180, and then a 2nd one for a shutoff max of 195-200F for failsafe.
> I also plan on going berserk with sprayfoam on the boilers waterjacket
> ...



The foam they sell in Bitely is pretty rigid, works well in PVC, but won't bend very far without breaking, you can make gentle sweeps, like you could with PVC, but for sharp bends you need to miter it and and use a 221/2 or a 45 degree elbow, they don't recommend bending PEX at a 90. If you have a lot of obstacles to work around it probably wouldn't be the best stuff for you to use. I had relatively straight trenches. Good luck with it though, sounds like you have quite a project ahead of you.


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## MNfarmer (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> centralpex, not thermopex




Sorry about that trial.. I misread your post!! Good luck with your boiler!


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## Stihl310 (Dec 29, 2008)

Whether you realize it or not, you just opened my eyes to something I didn't even think of... the cubic foot to gallon relationship... when I calculated this on my current design it was 12.5... which means I was heating 12.5 gallons of water for every cubic foot of firebox... I redesigned it, going from a 3' long firebox to 4', and from a 26" diameter to 28"... this brought me to 7.87, which I feel should do me well...

Thanks for posting this, great info..


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

oh yeah? you made yoru own burner? specs man! specs! don't leave us hangin'!!!


but then again that goes back to what cleanburn mentioned. small amount of water around the firebox. less water heats quicker, and if it's always in circulation, it should be good. i'm thinking of using storage tanks in the building to having lots of BTU potential at any given time. even if i pull alot of BTU's from the water with fans, there would be such quanitiy of it it would take alot to chill. which in return wouldn't call for draft nearly as much...

Assuming everything is insulated to the max. Which is what i'm trying to figure out right now. hate to dig up 100' twice....

/me eyeballs a old 5000gallon drum in his backyard.....


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## Stihl310 (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> oh yeah? you made yoru own burner? specs man! specs! don't leave us hangin'!!!



Haven't built it yet,still in AutoCAD : 

As of now the design is an inner circular firebox of 28"dia. with an outer water jacket or 40", this gives me a 6" chamber all the way around... Length will be 4' with the firebox inset from the back 2" to allow water around all surfaces except where the door is... the door I'm still hung up on, not sure whether or not to go water filled or just insulated. As of now I have had it quoted to build, and believe it or not it is cheaper for me to hire a machine shop to build it rather than buying the material and building it myself... Although my welding skills are sufficient to do the welding I feel that I'd be better of just letting them build the main part of the boiler just to ensure good welds and professional fabrication... the door and the rest of the enclosure will be built by me..

The firebox, according to calcualtion will hold 139 gallons of water, with a 16.9 cubic foot firebox. I'll be installing a blower with a solenoid controlled damper all of cours hooked into a therm. I'm using pex line to run the supply to my house, then finishing off the remainder of the run to my furnace with copper... I'm excited about getting it built, I hate this propane heat, it never feels warm, and the bill isn't any fun to pay either...........

Before anyone says it's too small, I'll only be heating a 1700 sq/ft house, with no plans of adding on... I do have plans of eventually building a shop, but I'm going to heat it with it's own dedicated wood burner inside


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

DLav said:


> The foam they sell in Bitely is pretty rigid, works well in PVC, but won't bend very far without breaking, you can make gentle sweeps, like you could with PVC, but for sharp bends you need to miter it and and use a 221/2 or a 45 degree elbow, they don't recommend bending PEX at a 90. If you have a lot of obstacles to work around it probably wouldn't be the best stuff for you to use. I had relatively straight trenches. Good luck with it though, sounds like you have quite a project ahead of you.




the foam won't bend very good? must be like styrofoam or something like that? bends and bends, then snaps?

i don't need to make sharp jags. I think the worse would be to the house, ~80ft straight climb it's a sharp climb, maybe for 20ft with 6ft climb.. then levels off and another 10ft to the footings....

not sure how i want to do this. the one house has no basement. so, dunno if i should 90 out of the ground, then int othe wall, or keep going through the footings and punch a hole in the foundation? I suppose the 90 out and 90 over int othe wall wouldn't matter, just insulate it like a mofo....


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

Stihl310 said:


> Haven't built it yet,still in AutoCAD :
> 
> As of now the design is an inner circular firebox of 28"dia. with an outer water jacket or 40", this gives me a 6" chamber all the way around... Length will be 4' with the firebox inset from the back 2" to allow water around all surfaces except where the door is... the door I'm still hung up on, not sure whether or not to go water filled or just insulated. As of now I have had it quoted to build, and believe it or not it is cheaper for me to hire a machine shop to build it rather than buying the material and building it myself... Although my welding skills are sufficient to do the welding I feel that I'd be better of just letting them build the main part of the boiler just to ensure good welds and professional fabrication... the door and the rest of the enclosure will be built by me..
> 
> The firebox, according to calcualtion will hold 139 gallons of water, with a 16.9 cubic foot firebox. I'll be installing a blower with a solenoid controlled damper all of cours hooked into a therm. I'm using pex line to run the supply to my house, then finishing off the remainder of the run to my furnace with copper... I'm excited about getting it built, I hate this propane heat, it never feels warm, and the bill isn't any fun to pay either...........




hehe, my mom gets pissed when i hang dollar bills in the vents and sees them flapping around....

my dad as a few drums laying around. he acutally just called me and gave me the sizes. all are radius then lenght
3'2x5'1
3' 5'7
4' 6'1
5'2 6'2
4' 5'7

then we have some monster 7' by 22' or something. huge. fuel tank from a gas station.

you think around is going to be effecient? or don't care long as it's not propane being burned?

for my door we came across this safe. it's huge. the door weighs easily 300lbs, and it's only 25x28. it's almost 10" thick at the center.. not cast iron, but it shouldn't warp..... but not sure how to cut holes in it for the draft. torch isn't gonig to do it. it would take days to drill.....


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## Stihl310 (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> hehe, my mom gets pissed when i hang dollar bills in the vents and sees them flapping around....
> 
> my dad as a few drums laying around. he acutally just called me and gave me the sizes. all are radius then lenght
> 3'2x5'1
> ...



Couldn't you put the blower below the door??? Assuming your leaving room in the bottom for ash buildup, I'm sure you could fab up somekind of smaller area in the inside to allow for air to flow in and at the same time keep the ashes out of the way...

I would say that round should be the most efficient, however I'm no expert on the whole thing, round just eliminates fab cost and welding, also reducing total pieces of steel needing to be sheared... just easier overall to build,


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## trialanderror (Dec 29, 2008)

/me ponders

yeah, i suppose i could make it somewhere instead of in the door.

. But we have them drums laying around, and dad has been bugging me to try and make something out of that before wipping out big dollar and buying 4x8 sheets....which i won't argue. I'm sure you've seen the high tech ripple top and water baffle idea from central boiler. Maybe it's not THAT better, they just print it everywhere to make you believe.


But in the end it doesn't matter what kind of boiler is used. i still need to have highly insulated water lines installed, eletricity ran to the boiler, etc etc. 

i suppose if it doesn't perform to par, just remove and replace. I suppose if i need to stoke more then 30lbs of wood every 12 hrs it'd be no concern. no firehazard in the house, and only 1 fire to deal with would be better then nothing. 


are you considering using storage tanks? or just have the majority of water in the boiler itself? 

i thought about having a tank for each zone, the zone with the most sq to heat, haveing the larger tank.


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## DLav (Dec 29, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> the foam won't bend very good? must be like styrofoam or something like that? bends and bends, then snaps?
> 
> i don't need to make sharp jags. I think the worse would be to the house, ~80ft straight climb it's a sharp climb, maybe for 20ft with 6ft climb.. then levels off and another 10ft to the footings....
> 
> not sure how i want to do this. the one house has no basement. so, dunno if i should 90 out of the ground, then int othe wall, or keep going through the footings and punch a hole in the foundation? I suppose the 90 out and 90 over int othe wall wouldn't matter, just insulate it like a mofo....



Yep, polystyrene is similiar to styrofoam, you can bend it a little ways, but go to far and it snaps. Once its inside the PVC it won't break, and you can put elbows in it, you just have to miter the joint or shoot the elbow full of crazy foam as your putting it together.

My shop has a heated floor, so coming up through that wasn't an option for me. I had to come out of the ground outside then go through the wall. Went good, built a frame around it and put steel siding on it to match the shop. Insulated like a mofo... no probs.


Stihl 025
Stihl MS280
Stihl MS290
One really dumb dog


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## Marklambert61 (Dec 29, 2008)

*PVC pipe*



DLav said:


> Yep, polystyrene is similiar to styrofoam, you can bend it a little ways, but go to far and it snaps. Once its inside the PVC it won't break, and you can put elbows in it, you just have to miter the joint or shoot the elbow full of crazy foam as your putting it together.
> 
> My shop has a heated floor, so coming up through that wasn't an option for me. I had to come out of the ground outside then go through the wall. Went good, built a frame around it and put steel siding on it to match the shop. Insulated like a mofo... no probs.
> 
> ...



Be very careful about using PVC it not rated for the needed temps...

CPVC might be an option for you but standard sch 40 PVC wont cut it.

Mark


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## KsWoodsMan (Dec 30, 2008)

TrialandError, are you going to try to build something that has a secondary burn chamber for better efficiency ? or going with a straightforward firebox inside the water jacket ?

The difference might be as much as 1/3 less fuel used during the course of a heating season. 20 cords used for heating instead of 30 cords. Another benefit is reduced smoke output and cleaner emissions.

The most efficient wood burners I have seen have a downdraft design , secondary burn chamber and complete burning with over 80% efficiency.


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## trialanderror (Dec 30, 2008)

i planned on copying centralboilers firebox design. maybe fab up something a bit different where the smoke has to travel against more water jacket as well.


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## trialanderror (Dec 30, 2008)

DLav said:


> Yep, polystyrene is similiar to styrofoam, you can bend it a little ways, but go to far and it snaps. Once its inside the PVC it won't break, and you can put elbows in it, you just have to miter the joint or shoot the elbow full of crazy foam as your putting it together.
> 
> My shop has a heated floor, so coming up through that wasn't an option for me. I had to come out of the ground outside then go through the wall. Went good, built a frame around it and put steel siding on it to match the shop. Insulated like a mofo... no probs.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## cleanburn (Dec 30, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> TrialandError, are you going to try to build something that has a secondary burn chamber for better efficiency ? or going with a straightforward firebox inside the water jacket ?
> 
> The difference might be as much as 1/3 less fuel used during the course of a heating season. 20 cords used for heating instead of 30 cords. Another benefit is reduced smoke output and cleaner emissions.
> 
> *The most efficient wood burners I have seen have a downdraft design , secondary burn chamber and complete burning with over 80% efficiency.*




Sorry but I disagree. Don't believe the BS on 80% efficiency if you do the math on the EPA website for the Central E Classic it is actually 65% efficient. Which is still pretty good compared to the older models, but if you just divide the # they have for lbs/million BTU input by the # they have for lbs/million BTU output that is 0.2/0.31 = 64.5% efficiency. The efficiency posted on the website there is based on a BS calculation if you ask me. If you do the math like I shown to compare all models its better.....There are a few other stoves on the website that have around 60% efficiency that are NOT downdrafts and far less complex designs.  

http://www.epa.gov/woodheaters/models.htm


Anyways....some other stuff you guys should think about are primary and secondary air for good clean combustion, your heat exchanger design that will increase your efficiency, your fan size (you don't want too small of a fan on your big firebox...or it won't burn clean and won't heat up fast), if you do pump water from your stove to a storage tank, make sure you get a big enough pump, yes put a high limit aquastat on your stove....


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## KsWoodsMan (Dec 30, 2008)

A quick look at the link provided didnt show the one listed I had in mind.




I don't see how a downdraft design makes it more complicated. If you are relying on natural draft it is barely different from that of a catalytic converter stove. Light the fire, let it warm up then manually switch over for more complete burn.

When cutting storing and loading 30 - 40 cords of wood for a less efficient boiler he might appreciate using less wood and filling it less often. Feeding that much wood into a boiler during the heating season sounds like a PT job. Cutting that much wood the rest of the year sounds like another one.

Maybe the Tarms downdraft design isn't 80% efficient overall. I bet it is much closer to 80% than 63%. It sure beats 20% - 35% like a firebox surrounded by a cold water jacket and open at the top would be. 

At the very least I would build it with an insulated firebox and a baffle that runs from the back to the front. Open at the front of the fire box for the smoke to exit to the stack in the rear. At this opening I would introduce heated secondary air for better burn. This will insure the hot smoke/gasses comes in contact for a maximum distance with the water jacket in its way out after it has had all oppurtunity to burn in the combustion chamber.

Just asking a nickels worth of questions and letting him decide what he is comfortable building/feeding.


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## trialanderror (Dec 30, 2008)

We do have a small boiler right now. it's a Steel king 4800b boiler. it's quite small. i'd say a 2x3x2 firebox. water capacity i'd say around 100gallon at the most. it's got a draft blower on it as well.

I think i'm going to give it a shot next winter. at the worse, i won't be burning propane, even if it doesn't burn wood nearly as effecient. In the mean time, money saved not burning propane, save up and buy a better boiler. 

I i know i can use it for 1 house if i setup storage tanks and use high GPM pumps. I'd say somewhere in the 30gpm range. combine that with loads of insulation and lots of water to hold alot of BTU, should get by..... get it rip roarin and get the water up to temp, then make sure it's stoked to the max to keep a good bed of coals smoldering at all times....

the guy that gave it to us was heating an old farm house, 3 story, no insulation, and there's no sprayfoam aroudn the water box of the boiler! and his pipes were above ground and not insulated (wtf?!)

So i think if i insulate everytying, it should do quite well. 

but either way, i still need the pex and heat exchangers installed in the houses.


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## cleanburn (Dec 30, 2008)

KsWoodsMan said:


> A quick look at the link provided didnt show the one listed I had in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have seen many downdrafts and they have been around for a long time. There aren't too many that are actually being made anymore compared to the others. There also aren't too many that are on the EPA website for cleaner burning stoves and Tarm's isn't there.... Downdrafts do require smaller pieces of wood, you can't throw in unsplit 14 inch rounds in them and expect them to burn clean or efficient. 

You can not get over 70-75% efficient with a OWB unless you are prepared to start condensing and reusing that condensation in your stack. Pellet burners can get above that efficiency because the pellets are MUCH drier than normal cordwood. I'm talking overall efficiency, not combustion efficiency. Combustion efficiency doesn't mean much to anyone.

I'm just saying that you can make an efficient stove even if its not downdraft.


----------



## blakey (Dec 30, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> /me ponders
> 
> 
> 
> i suppose if it doesn't perform to par, just remove and replace. I suppose if i need to stoke more then 30lbs of wood every 12 hrs it'd be no concern. no firehazard in the house, and only 1 fire to deal with would be better then nothing.



It could be 10 times that much wood in the cold weather to heat all you want to heat. I know how much I use, It would be quite a job to come up with 2 or 3 times as much wood. Looks like a great project, I admire anyone who can fabricate something like that.


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## trialanderror (Dec 30, 2008)

One of my friends bought a 120gallon burner too small for his setup. He installed a massive 700gallon storage system. Even when it fire goes out he can still have up to 36-48 hours of heat to pull off the water.


took a while to get warm. but once it's kept warm, no different then keeping 120gallons warm. only differences would be longer heat up and longer cool down. 

i do understand, in the examples, using a 250,000 BTU unit....
200gallon burner to heat 4000sq ft.
200tgallon burner to heat 4000sqft with say, the 700gallon storage. Heating the same sq footage, just the longer heat up, and longer cool down. both the same scenario.

using 200gallon to heat 10,000sq ft. won't work.
using 200gallon to heat 10,000sq ft with 700gallon storage, won't work.


----------



## DLav (Dec 30, 2008)

Trial
I wish I knew about that sleeve when I was putting mine in. 80 cents a foot beats 2+ a foot that I paid for the SDR. You should come out pretty good on the cost of your pipe. One tip, when your putting it together, do it in warm weather, that PEX is pretty stubborn when its cold out, it doesn't like to straighten out, keeps curling back up. I don't know the exact temp drop yet, like I said, I neglected to put in temp gauges when I installed mine. I might just shut it down and install them, if I do, I'll get you the exact temp loss on that style pipe.


----------



## DLav (Dec 30, 2008)

Marklambert61 said:


> Be very careful about using PVC it not rated for the needed temps...
> 
> CPVC might be an option for you but standard sch 40 PVC wont cut it.
> 
> Mark



I didn't use PVC for the water line, I used it for the sleeve around the insulation that contains the PEX.


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## KsWoodsMan (Dec 30, 2008)

cleanburn said:


> I have seen many downdrafts and they have been around for a long time. There aren't too many that are actually being made anymore compared to the others. *There also aren't too many that are on the EPA website for cleaner burning stoves and Tarm's isn't there.... * Downdrafts do require smaller pieces of wood, you can't throw in unsplit 14 inch rounds in them and expect them to burn clean or efficient.
> 
> You can not get over 70-75% efficient with a OWB unless you are prepared to start condensing and reusing that condensation in your stack. Pellet burners can get above that efficiency because the pellets are MUCH drier than normal cordwood. I'm talking overall efficiency, not combustion efficiency. Combustion efficiency doesn't mean much to anyone.
> 
> I'm just saying that you can make an efficient stove even if its not downdraft.



Not being on the list doesn't mean they dont exist. The one pictured isnt intended to be a stand alone outside boiler like the CB or a woodgun. I was thinking of total or overall efficiency also, not just combustion efficiency. 95% burn efficiency and 85% heat transfer is 80.75% overall efficieny. Their Product Data Sheet claims greater than 90% overall efficiency. 80% seems doable easily enough, with properly seasoned hardwood in the right design of stove like theirs. The manufactures still want to keep the stack temps above the condensation point for obvious reasons so the efficiency probably won't get much better.

Most gas , oil or propane furnaces since the late 70's should be able to achieve that kind of transfer efficiency. And since downdraft burners crack the tar and creosote molecules there will be very little that doesn't get burned with good mixing in a combustion chamber.

I never said that good stoves couldn't be made that aren't downdraft design. And there isn't any one right way to burn wood for heating fuel. Just that downdraft ( gassification) is the way that appeals to me and might be of interest to the OP.

By design all tar and creosote is 'cracked' to much easier to burn gasses as it passes through a glowing bed of hot charcoal in a downdraft gassifier. Those hot coals are so reactive they can break the molecular bond of water (live steam) and carbondioxide to pull away the oxygen in it to form carbon monoxide. Carbon Monoxide is combustible as is the leftover Hydrogen molecules. I dont know of any other stoves that are able to reach this kind of combustion temps to be able to fully crack all the creosote and get this high of a burn temp going on a sustaned basis. 

Agreed secondary combustion is important to be able to break past the 35% to 55% efficiency range from conventional burning.

I wish the OP the best of luck and fortune in his endeavor. From the sounds of things he is going to try it a step at a time to gain knowledge and experience to see if it is doable on a bigger scale than just a single house. He will get a feel for it and while he is loading his OWB and watching how wood burns( or rather the smoke) he can be thinking about different designs to incorporate in his design.


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## trialanderror (Dec 30, 2008)

DLav said:


> Trial
> I wish I knew about that sleeve when I was putting mine in. 80 cents a foot beats 2+ a foot that I paid for the SDR. You should come out pretty good on the cost of your pipe. One tip, when your putting it together, do it in warm weather, that PEX is pretty stubborn when its cold out, it doesn't like to straighten out, keeps curling back up. I don't know the exact temp drop yet, like I said, I neglected to put in temp gauges when I installed mine. I might just shut it down and install them, if I do, I'll get you the exact temp loss on that style pipe.



ball valves man! ball valves! you can never have enough to shut off a section whether desire or emergency.......


when about you think you can get back with some numbers? I might start trenching right now, and buy the material later.


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## DLav (Dec 30, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> ball valves man! ball valves! you can never have enough to shut off a section whether desire or emergency.......
> 
> 
> when about you think you can get back with some numbers? I might start trenching right now, and buy the material later.



I've got the valves, I can isolate the boiler from the lines and the heat exchanger from the lines, and valves where it enters the house and I have drains at all three isolation points. The problem is where the pipe enters the basement, it comes in real low and rises to the ceiling. After draining the lines, I'm going to have water dripping from that copper pipe for a while, the few times I've sweated copper after draining the water out I had some problems. I can sweat it dry, but I have a lot of trouble when there is moisture in there. Any tips on sweating copper when there is trace amounts of water in it?


----------



## Stihl310 (Dec 30, 2008)

DLav said:


> I've got the valves, I can isolate the boiler from the lines and the heat exchanger from the lines, and valves where it enters the house and I have drains at all three isolation points. The problem is where the pipe enters the basement, it comes in real low and rises to the ceiling. After draining the lines, I'm going to have water dripping from that copper pipe for a while, the few times I've sweated copper after draining the water out I had some problems. I can sweat it dry, but I have a lot of trouble when there is moisture in there. Any tips on sweating copper when there is trace amounts of water in it?



Stuff a piece of bread in it, the bread will soak up the water and then mix into the water once turned back on... they also make little gell caps you can stick in the lines to plug them, they eventually dissolve.


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## trialanderror (Dec 31, 2008)

A concern. If i used bigger pumps for the bigger plumbing, would i make a gain?
Another concern, how many inches for so many feet of elevation would hinder pump performance? Would i need 2 pumps per zone? one to pull the water out of the boiler (push to the house), then another pump to push water into the boiler (pull from the house)? 

also 

1 1/4 pex? or 1"?

1" or 3/4" copper for inside the building?


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## cleanburn (Dec 31, 2008)

You should only need one pump for the boiler


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## trialanderror (Dec 31, 2008)

cleanburn said:


> You should only need one pump for the boiler





one pump per zone you mean? i'm going with a 2 zone to begin with. then possibly 3 or 4 zone.

Also highly considering a high volume of water to 'store' the heat from the wood you could say..

i'm shooing for a 500-800 gallon system, with 100gallon in the boiler itself. Lots of insulation as well 

36 cubic feet of poly is ~$700, r value of 7.

I think i'm going to install the 1". i don't think i'll ever use 1.25" pex. Maybe if i need to pull a tremondous amount of BTU per hour off the water, then i might need volume per minute to move around quickly. but for 3 or 4 100K exchangers, operating randomly, never at once, and such a massive amount of stored BTU's in the water, i shouldn't have a problem.


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## trialanderror (Dec 31, 2008)

blakey said:


> It could be 10 times that much wood in the cold weather to heat all you want to heat. I know how much I use, It would be quite a job to come up with 2 or 3 times as much wood. Looks like a great project, I admire anyone who can fabricate something like that.


 
my mom's quite forgetful, and she left the door open on the woodfurnce inthe basment 3 times. each time we had a chimmey fire....

i'll burn a few more sticks to have a house to live in.....


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## cleanburn (Dec 31, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> one pump per zone you mean? i'm going with a 2 zone to begin with. then possibly 3 or 4 zone.
> 
> Also highly considering a high volume of water to 'store' the heat from the wood you could say..
> 
> ...



You will need one pump for the boiler. You will need one pump for your house, the water from the boiler and your house shouldn't normally mix depending on how you set it up. You could put multiple pumps for multiple zones or just use zone valves. I have zone valves in my house.

Why so much water? Again water is only used for storing heat, the only main advantage to storing all that heat is that your woodstove/OWB cycles less often. This means a longer on cycle and a longer off cycle, if you try to store too much you could have to load your stove twice before you have stored enough heat in your water....if you plan on doing 800 gallons your firebox should be roughly atleast 40-50 cubic feet, that is just an estimate off the top of my head....but a smaller firebox than that and you'll be loading it twice before all your water is 185 degrees....you could also possibly store so much heat your fire goes completely out before your stove turns on again (very long off cycle)....and you'd have to relight your stove everytime you fire it up....500 gallons is A LOT of water....


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## trialanderror (Dec 31, 2008)

why would the fire go out if there's wood in it?
the damper woudl close and the fan shuts off, and it does the classic 'smoldering' . As long as i check on it every 12 hrs, it should never go totally out....

water chills, boiler cycles, heats the water, shuts back down.

that is the point of using so much water. So it won't cycle so often. yeah, it's going to take a long time to get heated. but the stored BTU's will be much higher with so many gallons. Assuming go crazy insulating everything. 

FYI, the noodle 8ft foam pieces from CB has an R-value of 13. Or so says one of the techs.....


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## blakey (Dec 31, 2008)

I agree it is better to have the fire outside, I have an owb myself. Just from a couple of your comments I thought you may be grossly underestimating the wood usage heating that kind of square footage. I won't mention it again.


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## cleanburn (Dec 31, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> why would the fire go out if there's wood in it?
> the damper woudl close and the fan shuts off, and it does the classic 'smoldering' . As long as i check on it every 12 hrs, it should never go totally out....
> 
> water chills, boiler cycles, heats the water, shuts back down.
> ...



Well the fire going out depends on a number of things, how long it is off for, how air tight your firebox is, how much brick or no brick you have....I was just saying your fire will be smouldering for a longer amount of time than a "normal" OWB because your off cycle will be very long due to all your stored water. Depends on how close you set your aquastat to turn on and off your stove though too....but if you set your aquastat closer then you defeat the purpose of having the water. You could effectively store heat just by also increasing your range (stove comes on at 150 off at 180 instead of say on at 170 and off at 180)  You can do the BTU math on that one too


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## trialanderror (Dec 31, 2008)

blakey said:


> I agree it is better to have the fire outside, I have an owb myself. Just from a couple of your comments I thought you may be grossly underestimating the wood usage heating that kind of square footage. I won't mention it again.



more like 3500 sq ft. 
i overestimated because of poor building insulation. 


and i agree. set a the on/off further apart.
I'm buying new fiber rope for the ash door and firedoor. going to use 6" of urethane spray-foam on all sides. Plus install a damper with the blower motor so it'll shut airtight, won't draw air past the draftblower. I've read from others that always suggest a draft fan when buying one, especially if building one...

150, even 130F water will be better then nothing.... I don't have storage tanks at the moment. Between the boiler and plumbing, i may have 200gallon at the most. But i have loads of ballvalves, so, i'll just set it up to add tanks later if needed be. 

I have $0.00 into this burner. Well, a little bit invested. 2 miles of driving and 5 minutes of time.. and i don't have $15,000 to buy one right away, nor $4000 for material to build a 120Cubic foot monster... . I'm burning $3000 a year in propane, 2 years of this setup will allow me to save up to buy one or make one. what have i got to loose? couple of weekends of fukin' around. Both need power and plumbing, so the it's not like that'll be a waste of time or money.


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## DLav (Dec 31, 2008)

trialanderror said:


> 1 1/4 pex? or 1"?
> 
> 1" or 3/4" copper for inside the building?




I don't know the technical aspects of 1 1/4 versus 1, but the company I bought mine from recommended 1 inch and the fittings on my heat exchanger are 1 inch, so I used 1" for everything. It depends on where you buy your fittings, but most of the home improvement stores Menards, Lowes, etc have better selections when it comes to 1", they don't seem to stock as good of selection in 1 1/4. Attached are some pics I took of my pipe last fall before I got the trench backfilled, there was 180 water running through the pipes when I took the pics, and the snow never melted. I emailed the pics to Foam Plus.


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## trialanderror (Jan 2, 2009)

looks impressive. Really looking forward for you to post incoming and outgoing water temps  If it's working that good for you, maybe i'll just by the stuff from foam plus.


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## trialanderror (Jan 4, 2009)

*aqua-stats*

Alright, welded another 12" on the backside of the boiler, so the rear of the firebox will heat some water instead of dead space, plus give me a lower temp area to actually spray foam and not burn in flames... and another 32gallon on the boiler instead of stored somewhere else in the system.

it has a draft on the front, and a small blower on the rear. probably close the back and use the front or vice versa. probably use the front, blower will have a tendency to blow the ashes a bit?

i read some where it's best to have 2 aqua stats; one for the draft, another for the blower. draft 180-195, if it can't keep up, 2nd stat @ say 160-185 will call for blower assist. Naturally, i was going to have the draft on the blower so when both stat's are satisfied, everything closes somewhat air tight., i

question is do they make a aqua-stat that has 2 switches, each temp setting independent.
or should i buy 2 single switch's?

Honeywell for rep?
a better company maybe?

i would like to go with 110v instead of 24v which needs relays and a transformer blah blah blah.

oh yeah, digital? mechanical w/dials?


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## fletcher0780 (Jan 4, 2009)

Why not use a digital programmable 2 stage aquastat like either of these:

http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc211000000-stage-p-105.html?osCsid=b9860bd0f43c32c7deff9fdab6f7c679 

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=125&Product_ID=289&sPageName=Ordering


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## trialanderror (Jan 4, 2009)

http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc211000000-stage-p-105.html?osCsid=2dffeae47b0da6ac378ac10875951839


couldn't find the right one on your first link.

awesome pick though. Might even order the pre-wired one for convenience ...
pretty much set. gonna call up CB and ask them for a draft solenoid.


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## fletcher0780 (Jan 4, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc211000000-stage-p-105.html?osCsid=2dffeae47b0da6ac378ac10875951839
> 
> 
> couldn't find the right one on your first link.
> ...



Don't go through CB, they're expensive. Get it here: http://www.drillspot.com/products/42984/Dormeyer_2005-M-1_Laminated_Solenoid


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## trialanderror (Jan 4, 2009)

any particular reason you posted that one? i see theres quite a selection.

what's the differences? able to pull more leverage at the expensive of pulling more amps? 
stroke?


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## fletcher0780 (Jan 4, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> any particular reason you posted that one? i see theres quite a selection.
> 
> what's the differences? able to pull more leverage at the expensive of pulling more amps?
> stroke?



I was just trying to give you an alternative option to buying from CB. They have a tremendous mark-up (at least my local dealer) on almost everything they sell. The Dwyer controller I gave you a link to is used by CB and they sell it for more than double what you can get it for. Just like their Ashtrol product, 1 gal for thirty something bucks (I'm pretty sure it's just lyme).

It's a pretty popular solenoid among OWB's. I modified the blower on my Shaver to include a automated damper and used that one. The thing has a tremendous amount of power and would be able to lift a heavy damper plate with ease. I've been using it for a couple months now and works very well.


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## blakey (Jan 4, 2009)

Actually I was surprised when I purchased a solenoid for my CB a couple years ago, it was only $35 Canadian from the dealer.


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## uglydukwling (Jan 5, 2009)

Blakey, who is your CB dealer? I need to add a solenoid to mu boiler, and that seems as good a place as any to get it. Do you have the part # handy?


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## blakey (Jan 5, 2009)

pm sent


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## Sawmill (Jan 5, 2009)

There is a place in Grand Rapids call Arevon ( not sure if I spelled it right) that makes foam sheets and all shapes. I bought my insulation from them and I had them make it so I had an R 10 value all around the pex. I think it is the same stuff you buy at Bitley. They will make whatever length you want up I think 12 foot. It has been 4 years since I bought it but I had them make mine 8 inch Dia with holes down the middle for the pex and then I used a plastic sleeve to cover it. When I bought this foam I paid 50 cents a foot. I am sure the price is higher now but may be worth checking out.


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## ghitch75 (Jan 5, 2009)

any non gasification boiler out there that says there any where near 60% efficient are blow smoke up your [email protected]#!!!....maybe 30% in the real world....everything looks good on paper!!!


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## cleanburn (Jan 5, 2009)

ghitch75 said:


> any non gasification boiler out there that says there any where near 60% efficient are blow smoke up your [email protected]#!!!....maybe 30% in the real world....everything looks good on paper!!!




I have one that is 65% efficient buddy :greenchainsaw:


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## ghitch75 (Jan 5, 2009)

do you?...explain?....

brand?


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## cleanburn (Jan 5, 2009)

ghitch75 said:


> do you?...explain?....
> 
> brand?



I have the Heatmor 400SSR that is listed on the EPA website to be 60-65% efficient 

I KNOW it is more efficient than the old Heatmor 400 by how much longer my wood lasts and it is NOT a downdraft. It burns cleaner too, always clean white smoke out my chimney in the winter when I burn it.  

What is your explaination for saying what you did? Explain please.


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## ghitch75 (Jan 5, 2009)

cleanburn said:


> I have the Heatmor 400SSR that is listed on the EPA website to be 60-65% efficient
> 
> I KNOW it is more efficient than the old Heatmor 400 by how much longer my wood lasts and it is NOT a downdraft. It burns cleaner too, always clean white smoke out my chimney in the winter when I burn it.
> 
> What is your explaination for saying what you did? Explain please.



first i don't see that model on there web site?...

second...where on the epa's web site it say's it's 65%??

ok you have it hook to a house that needs say 60,000 btuph to heat that space...heating system runs 20 min's of every hour to maintain set temp so thats 20,000 btu's..... in 12 hour burn would take 144,000 btu's...you put in 75 pounds of [email protected] 5,000btu's per pound..thats if its well seasoned....most is not....thats 375,000btu's....and its all burned in 12 hours...that = little under 40% efficient...

the epa site is for how much emission's of smoke partials in the air...not fuel usages....unless i'm reading it wrong...just like a 94% gas furance @ 100,000btu's input puts out 94,000btu's...


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## cleanburn (Jan 5, 2009)

^^read my post on page 2. You can calculate efficiency from the website and yes my Heatmor is on there. The only other gasifier there is Central's and if you do the math they are very close to the same efficiency.

Efficiency is simply BTUs out over BTUs In....

You still did not explain your logic for saying what you did.....


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## ghitch75 (Jan 5, 2009)

cleanburn said:


> ^^read my post on page 2. You can calculate efficiency from the website and yes my Heatmor is on there. The only other gasifier there is Central's and if you do the math they are very close to the same efficiency.
> 
> Efficiency is simply BTUs out over BTUs In....
> 
> You still did not explain your logic for saying what you did.....



yes just as i did btu's in btu's out....go get a scale and weight the wood going in to your boiler....measure the time of burn.... find out your btu load for your house and do the math...you'll be shocked!!


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## cleanburn (Jan 5, 2009)

ghitch75 said:


> yes just as i did btu's in btu's out....go get a scale and weight the wood going in to your boiler....measure the time of burn.... find out your btu load for your house and do the math...you'll be shocked!!



I just refuted what you said by the EPA website with sound math. I've been there and done that with the wood weight and calculating efficiency in my stove. 

What is your counter argument? I have provided a sufficient enough arguement for my side. Tell me why you do not believe a stove that is not a "gasifier" can not reach over 30% efficiency....


----------



## trialanderror (Jan 5, 2009)

Sawmill said:


> There is a place in Grand Rapids call Arevon ( not sure if I spelled it right) that makes foam sheets and all shapes. I bought my insulation from them and I had them make it so I had an R 10 value all around the pex. I think it is the same stuff you buy at Bitley. They will make whatever length you want up I think 12 foot. It has been 4 years since I bought it but I had them make mine 8 inch Dia with holes down the middle for the pex and then I used a plastic sleeve to cover it. When I bought this foam I paid 50 cents a foot. I am sure the price is higher now but may be worth checking out.



nothing under that name. google didn't recommend a spelling correction, so dunno about that business title.

it did refer me to grand rapids foam technologies on 2788 remico st. wyoming. I'm going to give them a call in the morning.

spartan distrib has some 1" pex for $98 for 100Ft. rated at 180deg F at 100PSI. 160deg at 120PSI. maybe it's 200deg at 0psi? viega is the company name. going to give them a call as well. BUT, not for sure if it's a true 1" ID. i'm sure they're following the ID standard measurement. I figure i'd skimp on pex, long as it's rated for 200F, as it's the insulation and sleeve that does the wonder work. 

Gonna look into pricing out my own insulation fab. if it's just as much as buying the stuff from H20, i'll just get it from them. I plan on buying the sleeve from them anyways for 80cents a ft.

and holy! all caught up in a EPA efficiency war! besides, the best BTU, sitting on my A$$ on a beach chair in florida heated from the sun


----------



## cleanburn (Jan 5, 2009)

I wasn't trying to make a war  I do like to have civil conversations about technology and its fun to "argue" with someone in a good way


----------



## ghitch75 (Jan 6, 2009)

cleanburn said:


> I just refuted what you said by the EPA website with sound math. I've been there and done that with the wood weight and calculating efficiency in my stove.
> 
> What is your counter argument? I have provided a sufficient enough arguement for my side. Tell me why you do not believe a stove that is not a "gasifier" can not reach over 30% efficiency....



ok...just telling others what i found with my boiler and many others.....you done the test with yours you would know better than me how your boiler runs....


----------



## cleanburn (Jan 6, 2009)

I've seen a few crappy gasifiers though....some fly by night operations like that BlackBear that got a lot of Media then went into the dumps. It depends on the company and which stove you have looked at too. 

Ghitch75-What OWB do you have?


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## dancan (Jan 6, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> Alright, welded another 12" on the backside of the boiler, so the rear of the firebox will heat some water instead of dead space, plus give me a lower temp area to actually spray foam and not burn in flames... and another 32gallon on the boiler instead of stored somewhere else in the system.
> 
> it has a draft on the front, and a small blower on the rear. probably close the back and use the front or vice versa. probably use the front, blower will have a tendency to blow the ashes a bit?



OK , where are the pics ?


----------



## trialanderror (Jan 7, 2009)

dancan said:


> OK , where are the pics ?



re-compiled some usb source code and now i b0rk3d it...


[email protected]:/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.27-11/drivers/usb$ dmesg
[123050.037203] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] 487425 512-byte hardware sectors (250 MB)
[123050.039007] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off
[123050.039015] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 0b 00 00 08
[123050.039019] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through
[123050.043251] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] 487425 512-byte hardware sectors (250 MB)
[123050.044757] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Write Protect is off
[123050.044766] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Mode Sense: 0b 00 00 08
[123050.044769] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Assuming drive cache: write through
[123050.046283] sdb: sdb1
[123050.049393] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI removable disk
[123050.050089] sd 2:0:0:0: Attached scsi generic sg2 type 0
[123052.522849] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.522861] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.522869] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.522878] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487424
[123052.525349] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.525360] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.525367] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.525375] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487424
[123052.528222] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.528230] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.528237] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487416
[123052.528242] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487416
[123052.530842] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.530849] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.530855] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487417
[123052.530860] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487417
[123052.530864] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487418
[123052.530867] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487419
[123052.530871] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487420
[123052.530874] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487421
[123052.530878] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487422
[123052.530881] Buffer I/O error on device sdb, logical block 487423
[123052.549720] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.549732] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.549740] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487416
[123052.553213] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.553222] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.553230] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487417
[123052.555960] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.555968] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.555976] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.558584] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.558593] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.558600] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.562438] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.562449] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.562457] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.567593] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.567604] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.567612] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487416
[123052.571460] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.571467] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.571474] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487417
[123052.583776] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.583788] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.583796] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487360
[123052.587469] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.587481] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.587490] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487361
[123052.590079] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.590086] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.590093] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.593337] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.593346] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.593354] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 487424
[123052.597330] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.597338] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.597345] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 96
[123052.600958] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.600966] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.600973] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 97
[123052.609345] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.609357] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.609365] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 96
[123052.613961] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.613970] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.613977] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 97
[123052.617707] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.617717] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.617724] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 96
[123052.621368] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.621375] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.621382] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 97
[123052.625173] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.625182] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.625189] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 96
[123052.628954] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Sense Key : Not Ready [current] 
[123052.628962] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Device not ready: Add. Sense: Medium not present
[123052.628969] end_request: I/O error, dev sdb, sector 97
[email protected]:/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.27-11/drivers/usb$ 


i took some pics, but they're on my phone. i'll get them posted as soon as i figure this out. unless you have an idea what's up with it?


----------



## Slick (Jan 7, 2009)

Are those Dwyer digital controls the same ones Central Boiler uses? Does look like them....see they have just temp displays...wonder if I can wire one in parallel and run a wire to the shop and/or house...would love to see water temp in the house from right at the boiler. 




fletcher0780 said:


> Why not use a digital programmable 2 stage aquastat like either of these:
> 
> http://www.rancoetc.com/ranco-etc211000000-stage-p-105.html?osCsid=b9860bd0f43c32c7deff9fdab6f7c679
> 
> http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=125&Product_ID=289&sPageName=Ordering


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## trialanderror (Jan 7, 2009)

Slick said:


> Are those Dwyer digital controls the same ones Central Boiler uses? Does look like them....see they have just temp displays...wonder if I can wire one in parallel and run a wire to the shop and/or house...would love to see water temp in the house from right at the boiler.



yah, it's a direct replacement i think.

i'm going to buy 3 mechanical dial temp, one in each house for each zone, then a 3rd on the boiler for kicks.....give an idea how good the water is floating around

they do have remote sending ones, up to 75" from CB. 
i'm sure there's other ones that can remotely send for quite a distance.


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## Slick (Jan 7, 2009)

I've looked, haven't found to many yet that go very far  Those 2" dial ones on the dwyer site are a good price at $13 and change though, I got tiny 1" ones from my CB dealer for $8 and one broke right away.


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## mbergeon (Jan 7, 2009)

How about playing around with this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ET-73-Maverick-WIRELESS-Dual-2-Probe-Smoker-Thermometer_W0QQitemZ300283911723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300283911723&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A200


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## Slick (Jan 7, 2009)

Those wireless ones are great but no range...my house is at least 150' from the owb and signal would have to go through or around a 40x70 steel building....it's only 5 feet into my shop but I doubt it would go through the steel building


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## trialanderror (Jan 7, 2009)

binoculars!


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## trialanderror (Jan 9, 2009)

update

adding water to the bottom and sides of ash-pan/area/valley. it's got firebrick on the inside where it V's, then at the bottom of the V is a ashpan pull out, going to put a water jacket around it. may not need it, but, i'd hate to do all this work of adding water to the back and front and end up after burning for 12 hrs discover it gets quite hot on the bottom... :S also end up with probably another 40 gallon of water on the boiler itself as well....

pics as soon as i find time to recompile usb drivers....

for the record; it's a Steel king 4800B i'm modifiying, basically instead of water on top and sides, and no insulation, adding waterjacket to ALL sides and insulating. With help of some good people here, going to add digital control/aquastat.

should be near the quality of a CB


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## KsWoodsMan (Jan 9, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> re-compiled some usb source code and now i b0rk3d it...
> 
> 
> [email protected]:/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.27-11/drivers/usb$ dmesg
> ...



I'm guessing the camera has only a single partition? Seems like the one I had and the kid's MP3 players had 4. The firmware was on the first one and the data on the fourth like a usb floppy.

You might also need a supporting module for the usbfilesystem installed is why it isnt ready. You might take a look at /proc/modules too and see what you have loaded in your kernel.

Sorry if I'm not much help , I havent done a source install in years. The servers run Debian and I have had very few issues. :dunno:


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## trialanderror (Jan 10, 2009)

based on debian. ubuntu actually.

naw, it worked fine with 7.10 or whatever. uppgraded to 8.10, and the high speed 2.0 didn't work specifically with my phone, so i tried removing the enhanced module, that's how i go around it last time, but this time it didn't work, . so i changed some stuff, and now it's whacked. suppose i'll track what changes have been made and go from there.


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## trialanderror (Jan 10, 2009)

almost done! should be able finish welding a few more panels and then pressure test tomorrow and see how many leaks i'll have!

one question, where should i put the thermocouple? on the top where the water is the hottest? or near a return line where the cooled water is returned to the boiler? seems like it might have a tenancy to have a false call for heat? any ideas?

btw, by adding water to front, back, bottom sides, and bottom of firebox, increased water capacity from 38 to about 135.. maybe not exactly 135 i rounded down maybe 5 gallon. i had to cut corners and do some wild math, but, as far as cubic area, what's what i came close to.


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## dancan (Jan 10, 2009)

Borrow someones pc or mac and get them pictures posted .


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## KsWoodsMan (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm guessing the output from _dmesg_ that you posted were the only errors or failures ? And _lsmod_ shows usbdev.o, scsi.o, sg.o and usbfs.o are all loaded ?

There is always DSL Linux or Knoppix. It kills your uptime to reboot. But then it is a good idea to let _fsck_ run every couple of years anyway. Even journaling filesystems need consistancy checks from time to time.

Side note : one of the kid's mp3 players started acting up like this. Everything else we plugged in worked flawlessly. Turned out to be a defective USB cable. or was it the internal connection. cant remember but it wasn't the OS.


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## trialanderror (Jan 10, 2009)

dancan said:


> Borrow someones pc or mac and get them pictures posted .



maybe a mac

i refuse to touch a microsoft product. been microsoft free for 9 years. 
just can't do cool stuff with ms like you can opensource....

/me ponders as he has happy thoughts of using the aircrack-ng suite.....


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## cleanburn (Jan 11, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> almost done! should be able finish welding a few more panels and then pressure test tomorrow and see how many leaks i'll have!
> 
> one question, where should i put the thermocouple? on the top where the water is the hottest? or near a return line where the cooled water is returned to the boiler? seems like it might have a tenancy to have a false call for heat? any ideas?
> 
> btw, by adding water to front, back, bottom sides, and bottom of firebox, increased water capacity from 38 to about 135.. maybe not exactly 135 i rounded down maybe 5 gallon. i had to cut corners and do some wild math, but, as far as cubic area, what's what i came close to.



Best place is right in your *SUPPLY* line. Then you know the water temp going into your house. You don't want it in your return line that has nothing to do with your OWB. Or if you are doing tanks put them in right before the water gets put into your house.


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## trialanderror (Jan 11, 2009)

cleanburn said:


> Best place is right in your *SUPPLY* line. Then you know the water temp going into your house. You don't want it in your return line that has nothing to do with your OWB. Or if you are doing tanks put them in right before the water gets put into your house.



what? you sure? the thermocouple for the digital control that controls the draft and blower?


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## ericjeeper (Jan 11, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> what? you sure? the thermocouple for the digital control that controls the draft and blower?



yes. That way it is sensing what the CURRENT temp is in the boiler basically. It will then tell the blower to come on if it is below the setpoint.
Have you actually started on building the boiler unit yet? Made a cut? a weld?
Or are you still in the design process?


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## cleanburn (Jan 11, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> yes. That way it is sensing what the CURRENT temp is in the boiler basically. It will then tell the blower to come on if it is below the setpoint.
> Have you actually started on building the boiler unit yet? Made a cut? a weld?
> Or are you still in the design process?



^^ 

You want to control the water temp going into your house/in your boiler so yes its the supply line.


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## trialanderror (Jan 11, 2009)

ericjeeper said:


> yes. That way it is sensing what the CURRENT temp is in the boiler basically. It will then tell the blower to come on if it is below the setpoint.
> Have you actually started on building the boiler unit yet? Made a cut? a weld?
> Or are you still in the design process?





haha, page 6, jan 10th 7:47, check out that post, i did give some info of my progress. or just stop on over and check it out if your so concerned. Your only a few hours away 

i finished welding some peices together so i had full sheets to work with. i'm not loaded with dough to just stop at the iron yard and load up 2000# of iron.....i gotta scab together odds and ends to get what i need. car cracked a piston ring on the way up north, so i had to dump the pan and pull the head and knock the pistons out. But ,besides that, peices are cut and fitted and spotted where they need to be, need to run some heavy beads and pressure check. takes, time, i gotta use the chain-hoist and pick/rotate the boiler in such a way so the beads will lay deep and heavy. should be able to finish and do that tomarrow after work. progjress is going to be slow now, burned all my vacation time. took a few more pics today, gonna get drunk tonight and go through some source code and see if ican get these usb drivers to work :S programming drunk is hard, spends hours writing code, and after issuing the famous "make && make install", 10 hours later find out i mixed up semi colons with commas....


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## ericjeeper (Jan 11, 2009)

I got distracted with all the mumbo jumbo about the pictures. Keep up the good work.
I understand how it goes building your own OWB. I have built two of mine.


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

my only concern is how i'm going to vent the water being it's an open system.

i'd like to put it between both houses. only problem is. one house is 10ft below the boiler ,the second house his 10ft above the boiler, and the plumbing in the 2nd house needs to be ran high in some areas. should i relocate the boiler and put it beside the higher house? or continue with the boiler between the houses, and just run a really tall vent pipe? or put the vent somewhere in the plumbing in in the garage of the higher house? any ideas?


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

pics. proof that i've done a few cuts and a few welds. and maybe a few extra since i had to make everything from garbage laying around. tonight i'm gonna finish welding the bottom together, and take pics of the ID tags and stuff.


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

more


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

some mroe


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

and hey, i know, nothing is square, nor straight. but it's quick, it'll hold water, and i did it while drinking. don't expect too much. sprayfoam will cover my flaws....


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## KsWoodsMan (Jan 12, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> my only concern is how i'm going to vent the water being it's an open system.
> 
> i'd like to put it between both houses. only problem is. one house is 10ft below the boiler ,the second house his 10ft above the boiler, and the plumbing in the 2nd house needs to be ran high in some areas. should i relocate the boiler and put it beside the higher house? or continue with the boiler between the houses, and just run a really tall vent pipe? or put the vent somewhere in the plumbing in in the garage of the higher house? any ideas?



Install a water to water exchanger in the boiler and a closed loop to the house with higher elevation. The highest temp of the water to the higher house should never exceed what is in the boiler since you arent heating it directly. Put a purge valve in that house, at the top to expell air from the system and fill it from the bottom.

The lower house could be fed directly from the boiler's holding tank to its reserve tank. Any air in that system would end up at the top of the boiler tank and not get recirculated.


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## John D (Jan 12, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> and hey, i know, nothing is square, nor straight. but it's quick, it'll hold water, and i did it while drinking. don't expect too much. sprayfoam will cover my flaws....



not for nothing,your welds like better than Shavers.I seen mine when I had the blower off,and looked inside.A blind man could have laid a better bead.I can weld better with dirty,rusty metal.It looks like they MIG welded with no argon gas,and to fast a wire speed.


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

John D said:


> not for nothing,your welds like better than Shavers.I seen mine when I had the blower off,and looked inside.A blind man could have laid a better bead.I can weld better with dirty,rusty metal.It looks like they MIG welded with no argon gas,and to fast a wire speed.





yah, i used c10, and turned the temp high to make sure i had good penetration. welded from both sides to be failsafe. i think my welds look ugly, but, as long as it doesn't leak. 35 wire in a millermatic 210


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## dancan (Jan 12, 2009)

Great to see you got the pictures up .

 

Keep them coming .


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## trialanderror (Jan 12, 2009)

almost a 500k btu unit. So, by encasing fully with water and insulating it, i think i should end up with quite a good boiler. it's got a damper that you can push/pull to open flame rollout, so either it's a straight shot, or make it so it zig-zags from the back, to the front, then to the back and out the chimeny.


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## trialanderror (Jan 14, 2009)

did some mroe calling around and found a place that would cut my 9" wide round 8ft insulation peices with a 3" hole on center for the pex. 
R of 4.7 per inch. with 9" across, minus 3, 6 split in 1/2, result * 4.7 is R on all sides of pipe. R of 14.1. 

Now, i've called a few places that sell the polyurethane pipe and of all the people i asked, i could only get one to give me an answer, he said it's got an R of 13. Dunno how true that is? anyone have an idea?

i called about the pre-made thermopex pipe, and no one will tell me the value.the only reply i get is " it's really good stuff, you can put it in water"

wtf kind of an asnwer is that? doesn't sound very professional if you ask me. and if it's so good, how come no one knows any numbers? sounds over cracked up if you ask me. 

I'm just tryign to ttake the middle man out of the picture. if i could only find someone that makes the stuff that CB sells...because we all *KNOW* CB doesn't make this stuff themselves, they just order and resell....

anyways, 8ft sections of 9" pieces works out to be $25 for each section. about $3.16 a foot, 1/2 the price and the same R, if not a bit more.. This is, also, according to a CB dealer, the sleeve is 13" wide. If someone could post me some accurate information about the sleeve diameter, that would be highly appreciated. I'd hate to order 200Ft cut of this and end up i need to shave 1/2" off it.....


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## Slick (Jan 15, 2009)

Did you call CB for the R value of Thermopex? I'm not exactly sure what your trying to do in that last post other than buy thermopex from somone other than CB...
What type of foam are you trying to get cut by someone? EPS (i.e. stryofoam)? Sounds like maybe your trying to copy the green tube foam CB sold before the thermopex? 
I'm all for trying to find a cheaper way to do something, I'm a diehard do-it-yourselfer...but in this case....put it this way...I just went through what your going through a few months ago. I work in the foam industry for one of the biggest foam molders in the country, I have access to all kinds of foam and run a CNC machine also so I could cut whatever I wanted...and I couldn't get it to make sense to not buy the Thermopex. Yes it's expensive, trust me I had to go 100 feet with it and didn't like paying $1100 for it....but it's waterproof, it's easy to use and it's insulated well....my trench is exposed right now and there is snow on my tube right now with two runs of 180 degree water in it, what else can you ask for? My trench also filled with water after some rain and the thermopex just floated....tells me it is waterproof which it needs to be to stay insulated.... Again I design EPS (stryrofoam) parts all day long and the foam used in the thermopex is better in wet areas (i.e. underground)...plus each run of pipe is seperate from each other, didn't like the throught of that green stuff CB sells with the pipes next to each other, there will be about a 20 degree drop between the pipes in that tube, they WILL transfer heat between each other...
Just my $.02


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## November Wolf (Jan 15, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> did some mroe calling around and found a place that would cut my 9" wide round 8ft insulation peices with a 3" hole on center for the pex.
> R of 4.7 per inch. with 9" across, minus 3, 6 split in 1/2, result * 4.7 is R on all sides of pipe. R of 14.1.
> 
> Now, i've called a few places that sell the polyurethane pipe and of all the people i asked, i could only get one to give me an answer, he said it's got an R of 13. Dunno how true that is? anyone have an idea?
> ...




Here is a link to the Logstor pipe that I used. http://jandspipe.com/

The place is up in northern michigan by Kalkaska.


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## trialanderror (Jan 15, 2009)

Slick said:


> Did you call CB for the R value of Thermopex? I'm not exactly sure what your trying to do in that last post other than buy thermopex from somone other than CB...
> What type of foam are you trying to get cut by someone? EPS (i.e. stryofoam)? Sounds like maybe your trying to copy the green tube foam CB sold before the thermopex?
> I'm all for trying to find a cheaper way to do something, I'm a diehard do-it-yourselfer...but in this case....put it this way...I just went through what your going through a few months ago. I work in the foam industry for one of the biggest foam molders in the country, I have access to all kinds of foam and run a CNC machine also so I could cut whatever I wanted...and I couldn't get it to make sense to not buy the Thermopex. Yes it's expensive, trust me I had to go 100 feet with it and didn't like paying $1100 for it....but it's waterproof, it's easy to use and it's insulated well....my trench is exposed right now and there is snow on my tube right now with two runs of 180 degree water in it, what else can you ask for? My trench also filled with water after some rain and the thermopex just floated....tells me it is waterproof which it needs to be to stay insulated.... Again I design EPS (stryrofoam) parts all day long and the foam used in the thermopex is better in wet areas (i.e. underground)...plus each run of pipe is seperate from each other, didn't like the throught of that green stuff CB sells with the pipes next to each other, there will be about a 20 degree drop between the pipes in that tube, they WILL transfer heat between each other...
> Just my $.02



called CB themselves, can't get any specifications out of them. no one knows the R of anything. like i said, they only say " it's really good, you can put it in water".

thx wolf, someone else mentioned something about logstor too, or maybe a different thread? not sure. will check into it tomorrow.


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## trialanderror (Jan 15, 2009)

sh!tbeans, i quoted the wrong person too.. my bad


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## trialanderror (Jan 16, 2009)

according to this link

http://www.fomo.com/resources/technical-bulletins/opencellvsclosed.aspx

closed cell has an R of about 6.

according to J & S pipe, the overall jacket OD is 4.3, and the water OD is 1.25, and there's 2. so 2.5" wide is displaced from water supply lines, so we have 1.8 inches of total insulation to work with. split that in 1/2, come up with 0.9 inches of insulation between the pipe and the jacket wall. times 6 and that's an R value of 5.4. not too impressive, unless i'm doing my math wrong?

this is also the best case scenario, since they don't specificy whether it's open or closed cell. if it's open cell we're looking at an R of 3.5, which i hope not....for $13 a foot....

edit

this is also assuming the pipes are right tight together, and by the looks of the photos, they aren't, so the area of insulation between the water supplies and the jacket wall are even closer.....


----------



## dirtyedge (Jan 16, 2009)

You may be able to find more information on *Insulpex* made by Rehau. Rehau makes thermopex for CB, and all of the pex that CB sells is rehau pipe.

I used one length of 1 1/4 thermopex and then found out I could get it much cheaper by buying Insulpex so I ordered a second run of 1" insulpex.

I have 150' run that I dug in Nov, and the dirt froze before I could fill it in, but I do know that in the last 2 months the snow has not melted off of either pipes so the R-value has to be much higher than your calculations

And in both pipes the pex lines do not touch they are seperated by .25-.5" of foam


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## November Wolf (Jan 16, 2009)

I think you may be over analyzing the pex tubing issue. Either the Thermopex or Logstor stuff is the best on the market. Anything different than that and you will have to insulate it very well in hopes of getting the same results.


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## trialanderror (Jan 16, 2009)

yah, i got ahead of myself. 

CB copied the stuff from logstor, one of the ways to get around the patent was to rib the insulation on the outer jacket, which naturally makes less insulation on the inner ribbed parts...\\
i had to do some phone work.
i called J & S piping near kalkaska, they told me to call GLH, which is where they get their pipe. GLH told me to call W M H interprise, which are distributors for every one, and they get their supplies from overseas. maybe it was the otherway, anyways....

it's from denmark in europe, and it's made in germany. 

guy said he ships alot to holland, so, he said $10 and i can meet him at a truck stop and get it that way. figure it's worth the shipping for $10. 

he wants $12 a foot. he told me the english use a different way to measure heat loss, but, in layman terms, says at 180F it looses a 1/2 degree every 100 ft pumping at 3 1/2 gallon a minute.


http://www.finkmachine.com/pexflex.html


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## John D (Jan 16, 2009)

November Wolf said:


> I think you may be over analyzing the pex tubing issue. Either the Thermopex or Logstor stuff is the best on the market. Anything different than that and you will have to insulate it very well in hopes of getting the same results.



I agree,an r6 is fine anyway.Just R value isnt the end allof of measurement of how well it insulates,and the most important part is that the pipe stays dry,and have no way for air to inflitrate and move carrying out your heat,which the thick waterproof outer layer ensures it will not leak.The solorguard wrapping has a higher r value on paper,but doesnt take into consideration the infiltration of air between layers,and the 4" drain pipe,the fact that it is not filled solid,so even with a better R value,there is similar temp drop.


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## trialanderror (Jan 17, 2009)

after looking at this

http://www.heatexchangersonline.com/airtowater.htm

and this

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf


and needing 2 radiant heat and 1 heat exchanger, the HX being in the 19x22 range, as right now a propane furnace that's rated for 90k btu isn't enough, (runs for 3-5 minutes, every 10 minutes or so,it's a 67,000 btu/hr furnace, so i figured a 150k unit., according to the chart, if i run it at the lowest 140f and slowest CFM fan speed, it'll be in the 80's)

should i go with the 150k unit? then i need like 15gal/min and 1" pex is only able to do 7.5gal minute?

an eye opener maybe? what should i do? install the 1.25" pex just to be safe? i'd like to run a small heat exchanger in the garage, and one on the furnace, then maybe a tiny one on the patio porch. all in series of course, with the house heat exchanger being the first in line. (maybe install shutoffs and a H connector with a valve to regulate water flow as needed?)

any ideas?

*edit

naturally, 1" fittings aren't 1" ID...


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## trialanderror (Jan 17, 2009)

think i'm going with 1.25" pex. it'll give me some leadway. even if i don't pull a full 150k from the HX, i'll still have some room to work with with other systems that are plumped in serious.....


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## trialanderror (Jan 20, 2009)

i was on emergency standby this weekend, so i was locked down to the '10 min drive' rule....so lastnight i rolled up north and did some more work. got the bottom welded in, started on the front. juts gotta do a few more peices in the front and the 1 peice in the back, and i'll be ready to pressure test. 


like a new phone and horrible pictures...one of them motorola rokr z6m's....

and check out them sexy beads...gf would probably appreciate it if I lay her as good as i do them beads.....


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## trialanderror (Jan 20, 2009)

pics of the front


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## trialanderror (Jan 24, 2009)

pressure tested it today.

got some grinder work to do....

basically it's better as a sprinkler then a boiler....  
i can't complain, a few pinholes when working with rusty nasty material. can't expect much.

got most of them taken care of. other then that it turned out nice. i hocked a few circulation pumps from work. Andi I didn't forget, someone in the community was nice enough to sponsor some hardware for my project, you know who you are . It's highly appreciated

But the garage is needed for some automotive work, so sunday gonna put the pinhole patch problem aside and going to start plumbing up the house with copper. 2 more weeks is another payday, so i should have enough to buy 80ft of logstor plumbing. 

more progress to post as...more progress is done....


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## Blazin (Jan 24, 2009)

Nice job so far... Do yourself a favor and grind the rusty steel before you weld it!


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## morningwood (Jan 24, 2009)

These images are borrowed from a Garn installation.

This is what I thought about doing to save some money if I put a OWB in.












If I remember right this guy said on ********** he had around 7$ a foot in getting the pipe into the ground.

Alot better than 12$ - 16$ per foot for logstor or central pex.

Thanks,

Scott


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## trialanderror (Jan 24, 2009)

Blazin said:


> Nice job so far... Do yourself a favor and grind the rusty steel before you weld it!



i did...i ground the slag from torching and beveled all the edges.
they're not serious leaks...

they're super tiny ones...
like, pump 25psi in it, and wait for 5 minutes, there'd be 7-8 tiny bubbles about the size of a pin head each....

i did discover the best weld is a silent weld...pops and snaps are a bad sign. the only things you should hear is music and the buzz/hum of the welder....


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## cleanburn (Jan 26, 2009)

Its coming together  

I agree with Blazin, make sure you are grinding that stuff before welding


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## trialanderror (Feb 5, 2009)

my gas getter dumped the transmission the other day (the case cracked and split down the side!?!?)

so, garage is tied up for a while. doing some indoor plumbing. 

on the note of HX's. is there a quality difference? anyone bought the cheap ones that are seamless and have had no problems? 

http://www.ctwoodfurnace.com/parts_water_to_air.htm

shooting for those.
200k for the house, 100k for my mom's orchid plant thingy room... she wants that all fancy and warmer then the house so...yeah, need 2....


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## trialanderror (Feb 6, 2009)

got it installed. 

having dual forced draft in the front and back is crazy!!! when it calls for heat...it HEATS.

i'm impressed.


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## John D (Feb 13, 2009)

Now that you've had it up and running a week,how is it doing so far?


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## trialanderror (Feb 13, 2009)

John D said:


> Now that you've had it up and running a week,how is it doing so far?



not sure. i don't live there  it's like a hour drive north. My awesome gas getter (ford aspire) puked. transmission case split...another project scheduled for next weekend

I'm on call this weekend. Next weekend i'll be able to get up there. Talked to my dad on the phone. he said he loves it. he was putting nearly 2 wheelbarrows of wood in each stove a day. (2 houses, each one has a cookstove and a furnace, so figure twice a day loading, 5 to 6 loads for decent heat) now he loads it 2 barrows a day, and can acutally melt ice on the shop floor  

The waterjacket, firebox dimensions are simliar to heatmor's 100 and 200 css models. i went totally overkill and installed 200k btu units in each house. reason for this was i could acheive the same BTU/hr with 130-140*F water instead 180-195. . I figured have it and not need it then to need it and not have it. 

It was worth it. nearly all the money went into the underground plumbing, about 200ft of logstor. $12/ft. . $100 worth of steel into the boiler. 

we did some wheelin' and dealin' and hooked up with a 300 and 500 gal propane tank. Next one is going to be a monster. As we're putting up a 40x60 with 22ft cieling this summer. So i'd say be safe and double the 40x60 sq footage because of the cieling height. ,Gonna heat the floor, so might have to make a bigger boiler. But i think this one can keep up with it. I installed a 200gallon storage tank in each houses garage, dad experimented with bypass shutoffs and it helps alot with overnight single digits and below zero's. it'll pull heat from the water instead of burning the wood during the night. quite a bit more of reserverd thermal storage. I'm honestly thinking about going with even more water in the future... When it calls for heat, it runs longer, instead of wasting heat/smoke when smoldering. As that smoke does burn and create heat.... that steelking came weith firebrick on the bottom, and man, i was there last weekend, and i opened that door, and it was seriously 20" deep of red hot coals, side to side 24" worth , 28" back.....and the blower's push air from udner them, as there's ash grates. I may have to plumb the return water on the top of the water jacket, when them blowers kick on, once in a while you'll hear a pop/crack of water boiling....

anyways. parents are satisified. clean cheap heat. it's what they wanted. someday all the 80acres and 3 houses are gonigto be handed to me, so it was future preparation you could say.


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## boyland (Feb 14, 2009)

*built my own also*

I built my own following DEB design IV boiler.

I had some minor leaks go to menards by boiler sealer it will take care of any of those minor leaks. On the water jacket exterior, you can use plumbing expoxy if you have anything to worry about. I found most of mine just went away.

You do not have to be a perfect welder to do this project. But the Time it takes is quite extensive. If I was to do it again I probably would get everything ready and have a welding shop with a high voltage welder do the job.

Also whatever size you think you need I would add 30% more. When I was building this thing I thought man this thing is big then once I started using it I wise I had made it 2 times the size.


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## trialanderror (Feb 15, 2009)

i've done alot of stick welding, and i did this with a wirefeed. just a plainjain millermatic 220volt... i think it tops out a 260amp? i used .035 wire and c10.



most of my leaks i peened with a punch. And the ones that still bubbled with 20psi, they never leaked with water in it and zero PSI....makes me wonder what happens if you do the same with a brandname boiler?

anyways, wirewelding, there should be no popping/snapping. Supposed to be dead quiet with the exception of the frequency tone. everytime it pops/snaps it's a dirty weld. Way different then stick. also cranking the amps and making a deep weld is the best. ANyways, only got 2 full weeks into it. Turned out nice.

there's absolutely NO way i could of done this without a chain hoist. i had to flip and turn and roll it nearly 1/2 million times to get all my welding done.....


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## trialanderror (Feb 18, 2009)

well, just to summarize.

Boiler: Steel King 4300B 40 Gallon; working pressure 30PSI, 145CFM draft blower, firebrick. 6" chimney. Rated for 485,000 BTU/Hr. 
Price: free.

originally designed to be setup down in the basement, as it's not insulated in any shape at all. Originally had; 4 1.5", 2 1", 1 1/2" fittings. 

The work: 

Added a water jacket to the front of the firebox, the back, around 12" of the chimney coming out the back, and around the entire bottom. Also added a 2nd 145CFM draft fan to the front. Only exposed area of firebox is on the far bottom, where the ash door is. Cant' say it's part of the firebox though, since it's luke warm to the touch at any time. From some rough crazy math, increased water capacity to about 85-95 gallon, give or take. Added 4 more 1 1/2 fittings in various places. 2 more 1/2" fittings 

Material Used
bought some 6" 1/4" wall pipe for the chimney to extend the backside 12". Added some 2.25" flat stock around the front to bring that out about 2.25". The steel to use for water jacket addition was laying around everywhere, tripping over it, moving it 10 times every year, figure i'd use it for something useful. 1/2 of it was a truck box someone scabbed together.

Bought a 44# roll of .035 wire. $38
Burned a K tank of oxygen. $30
Burned a K tank of C10 - not sure what it costs, it's been around for years

All cutting was done on a 10# tank of propane  (i know, i'm a cheap b!tch, i only use acetylene when gas welding or cutting anything over 2", or making rubber boomers...condoms are the safest, I'm not kidding!! there's no static electricity)

Insulation, 24" on the top center peak, down to 18" on the top edges, peaked roof. 18" insulated on the sides, back and bottom. 12" on the front. Plain jain insulation batting. R of 4.3-4.7 per inch. 
Price: Free. 

Skirting, some sheet metal i had laying around. Used some clear silicone to make it water tight
Price: free.
Plumbing, 1" ID Logstor. 2 zones, one 85Ft, other 76Ft. 1" copper in the house. Somehow dad ended up with like 80 ft of 1" copper rwith some aluminum fins on it, so, any straight runs in the garage or basement i used that to dissipate the heat better. Few years ago some flea-market shopping and he bought 18 1.25" brass ball valves, and my buddy 'found' 36 reducer bushings at his work in the inventory room....

Logstor was $12/ft. The guy said give him a call and when he drives to holland to make a delivery he'll meet me at a truck stop near holland, which was like a 20 min drive for me. Said give him $10 and call it even. I couldn't argue it. 

For the controllers thermocouple, i had to do some shopping, but i found a comp nut and some bushings, and with a bunch of reducers, the probe goes in the smallest reducer, working it's way up to a 1.5" tee, and the water basically elbows in the tee, fully encasing the probe. Couldn't of worked out better. 

Pumps are GrundFos UP26-64F with 1.25" throats. Rated for 33GPM with 1' of head. I'm about 8Ft. specs sheet says 22.5GPM with 7' head. They were taken from a hydronic job over in easttown, bearings were bad, i took them apart and some lube work, they work like a charm. Even if i get 1 year out of them, better then flipping $380 a piece.

Heat exchangers, 22x22x3.5" 1" sweats. If water is 180*F at 22GPM it's rated for 200k btu/hr. 130*F water and 22GPM will dissipate about 130K btu/hr. 
Price: $286 each. One in each house. 

Heat Exchanger for the garage: GMC diesel radiator. 4.5' x 38" 2.5" inlet and outlet. No fan. It sits down in the pit under the staircase. Just the high amounts of heat radiating from it pulls down the cool air and pushes up hot air. 
Price: free. 

Can't really calculate my time. I did about 1 week of constant work. But then i had to work 60 hr weeks and occasionally a weekend, so, it got spanned out over a month. Maybe 2 weeks of 8hr days.... nearly 1/2 of the work was while on vacation, so, i got paid to build most of it.

Am i missing anything besides pics? those will come soon.


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## trialanderror (Apr 28, 2009)

sorry guys, been in jail for a while. it's ridicules what happened. ended up pleading guility for a felony with 7411 treatment..... pocessiion of 2 1/2 tables of vicodin....

i'm on probation for a while. 


anyways. the boiler is nice. it's set at 200F. 180gallon system. heats a 220k BTU inside the house. and also heats a *massive* mack truck radiator in the garage (2nd zone, radiator is about 4ft by 3ft, so large it doesn't need a fan to heat the garage  )


it burns roughly 2 fireboxes of wood everynight. the zone in the garage has ball valves that i shut down almost close when i'm not doing anything in there (soon to be modified later) and the house is a 5/2 program thermostat. 62F at night, then shoots to 72F during the day. 

i burn trash wood, punky pine, water logged poplar, leaves, yard waste, if it burns and turns to ashes, i cram it in there.

picture me putting all my might into the door trying to get it juuuuuust closed enough to get the latch to start so i can bind it down air tight...lol...

for the draft i used two peices of steel with a solenoid. all relayed with 24v, so my dwyer controller won't fry from contact loads. 

the blower heats the coals so intense it jumps 3-4 degrees within a minute....

it's always going on/off, if it's ideling, and no one is pulling heat, it's on for ~1 minute at the most. off for about 12-15.....


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## trialanderror (Oct 4, 2009)

finally re-configured the controller to shutdown at a high temp and turn on at a low temp

cut down the wood consumption quite a bit.

the family and i are quite impressed. Unfortnaly i never did build one from scratch. I recently acquired a 1000Gallon steel tank that's 7/16" thick. Not sure if i want to make that the water jacket, or the fire box.....i have crazy thoughts about it.....


I'm quite impressed with it. Burns about a medium wheel barrow full in 10 hrs. Softwood, not sure about hardwood, saving that for january time. IM just happy we're not going to blow $6500 this winter for propane for both houses & garages....no, that figure is not a typo.....


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## cleanburn (Oct 12, 2009)

If I had that tank you are talking about, I would make that the waterjacket for sure and build a firebox in it or just use it as what it is. A water tank 

The 7/16" thick is pretty thick for heat transfer and its huge, so it wouldn't make a good firebox in my opinion.

Jail huh? :censored:

Best of luck to you


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## trialanderror (Oct 12, 2009)

fortunately for a few days.... 

good thing the state focuses their resources and manpower on dangerous, corrupt, and unstable people like me....  And then they shut down facilities because of insufficient funds, letting robbers, vandalists, gang members and etc walk free, their sentencing cut short....

yeah, i figured it was overkill for a firebox.... I have a 500 gal if i trim will fit inside of it. Not sure. Gonna see how well this one performs for a full winter. Appreciate your help man  you know what i'm talking about...

i poured a slab, put skirting around it, and added a stainless steel chimney, galvanized blew out within a month or so. Also got my home made hydronic-dryer going, and soon a hands dryer for in the bathroom 

Next summer, hot tub.......

I'll grab some pics when i find time. been busy building a 8 way wedge'd splitter for all these BTU's i'm gonna be needing....well, that's been my focus, aside of skidding, splitting, and stacking, 60hr weeks, and my other 209834570298357 projects i got going on...

next priority is a bigger building...ha, that needs to be heated!


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## cleanburn (Oct 13, 2009)

I wish I would have put radiant tubing under my garage approach :censored: it would have saved me a lot of shoveling. 

If you do any more slab stuff like that I would recommend it, might as well, you just have to heat the slab above freezing to keep it nice


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