# DEDA lanyard with ART Positioners



## Tom Dunlap (May 23, 2003)

This is how I have my DEDA lanyard set up. The square MR threaded through the webbing eye. I might cut off the d-ring to tidy things up a bit more.

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 23, 2003)

Now that is a pricey lanyard


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## rahtreelimbs (May 24, 2003)

What does DEDA stand for?


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## Stumper (May 24, 2003)

Double Ended Double Adjusting. Tom's earlier posts about his lanyard inspired me to create the BEDA- Bare ended double adjusting. Slightly less versatile but much less complex --I really like the BEDA lanyard.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 24, 2003)

Stumper,

Could you describe the BEDA?

The same system can be setup using hitches for the adjusters and brass dog leash snaps for adjusters. Total cost: less than eight dollars.

When I had my tied DEDA the adjuster that was with the plain snap was made with white cord, red cord for the red snap.

Tom


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## Stumper (May 24, 2003)

Tom, The one which I am currently using is 14' long. It is assembled with 1/2" 3 strand polyester(lanyard), green 3/8" StaSet for left distel on dbl locking Aluminum snap with brass swivel snap for slack tender, White 5/16" Sta set for right Distel-also on al. snap with brass snap tender. I daisy chain the tail on the right side and clip it to the D with an accessory 'biner. The left side has about 3' of tail when clipped to the right D prior to deployment (just short enough to keep it out from underfoot)about 5.5 to 6" between the hitches when it is not in use-again keeping stuff out from underfoot. I think I took a pic- I'll try to post it. Both ends terminate in Lanyard knots(wall knots with the rope relaid and whipped beyond the knots.) The lanyard knot will not pass through the brass snap and the Distel will not ride over one-it is an effective low bulk stopper. Thanks for the inspiration-this isn't necessarily better than your DEDA but it fits my needs well.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 24, 2003)

Put one more clip on and you can double end that puppy. (eww now that sounds sick. Sometimes I wish I clould take at least some of the jarhead out of me)


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## Stumper (May 24, 2003)

John,I considered doing that but I haven't felt much need for double ending the lanyard since I switched to a split-tail system-in effect I already have 2 lanyards. If I did add a snap I would probably use it occassionally but I don't feel like I NEED it.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 26, 2003)

Stumper,

I'm have a thick-head moment. What does the B stand for?

It seems like you have a single lanyard with two floating connectors. How do you figure that you have two lanyards?

I must be missing something...

Tom


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## Mahk (May 26, 2003)

Tom:

'B' is for 'bare'.



> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> * the BEDA- Bare ended double adjusting. Slightly less versatile but much less complex --I really like the BEDA lanyard. *



Both snaps are adjustable, but it is not a 2-in-one.

Stumper;

What flexibility does this give you that a single adjusting lanyard does not?

Mahk


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## Stumper (May 27, 2003)

Tom, Mahk is correct-B is for bare. My "2 lanyards"reference is about the ability to use the climbing line with split tail as a second lanyard in secured free climb mode- the most common use for a double ended lanyard.(Perhaps you have some tips about other benefits of having a second leg on the lanyard).

Mahk, The primary benefit of the BEDA configuration is in the slack tending of a long lanyard- the 2 tails allow quite a lot of adjustment while still keeping everything out of my feet. Also the bare ends are a little easier to catch when slapped around a trunk compared to a snap in the knuckles.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 27, 2003)

The BEDA seems like a tiny step along the lanyard evolution. As long as you're carrying all that gear why not reconfigure and get all of the advantages of the DEDA?

there are times when I use both ends for positioning. This is especially advantagous when the climbing rope is at a low angle. 

Tom


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## Stumper (May 27, 2003)

Tom,Granted-it is just a baby step- but up until a year ago I was climbing with an adjustable buckstrap lanyard. This config is far more versatile than the buckstrap without a lot more gear and bulk. I can see where double rigging the respective ends of the DEDA would be helpful-though I don't know how often in the limited climbing that I do.

My point about you inspiring me was that when you posted about the DEDA I understood what you were talking about but it seemed beyond my needs. I did see a big advantage in the double adjusting feature for my own peculiar application. While from your standpoint it probably seems silly not to go all the way to the DEDA you did cause me to think and incorporate features into my immediate needs. I'm probably just going back to a step that was skipped over in lanyard development but I like it here for the time being.:angel:


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## BrianCooke (May 27, 2003)

*That positioner.....*

How exactly does the positioner work? From the pictures it seems to act like a microcender but might also be able to let the rope go the other direction via a 'trigger', is this correct?

I ask in that I use single rope, tying one end of the rope to the base of the tree & climbing on the other. I use ascenders to climb & use a figure 8 to descend. I've been looking for something to replace one ascender so I can use it on descents as well without having to swap out gear in the tree, also to have a safer and better way to stop mid descent if I need to. I think the Petzl I'd would work if it would freely ascend but not sure if it does or not.

Anyways, thanks for the info,
Brian Cooke

p.s. I just called Sherrill and their purchasing dept has heard of the Positioner but they do not have any in (not sure if they just can't get them in or if they are not going to carry it).


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## seanlarkin (May 27, 2003)

Brian, (and everyone else, too),
I'm pretty sure that we're going to be carrying the ART Positioner, once we can get a hold of them. I'm sure what the hold up is, though. I think Tobe is handling it himself, which is why our purchasing folks aren't as informed as would be if they were handling this item.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 27, 2003)

Stumper,

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean for it to sound like I was being a gear snob  You got it right, "I'm probably just going back to a step that was skipped over in
lanyard development but I like it here for the time being." The evolution of lanyards is an interesting subject. When I started climbing I used a flat belt buck strap from the phone company. Until I saw rope lanyards with a Gibbs I was really frustrated with the buckle ALWAYS being on the back of the tree. 


Glad to hear that you're moving forward!

I would be reluctant to endorse the use of the P for anything but a lanyard adjuster. At the end of the month Hubert will have the website for ART on line.

Using the P for an ascender seems like a bad idea. Since we climb through brush, I could see something bumping the hoop and releasing the grab. My SRT setup is a Microcender as an upper and a Rocker attached to my saddle as a backup.

Tom


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## ramanujan (May 27, 2003)

i have to ask tom, isn't your lanyard a little more cumbersome than it is helpful?

i suppose that if a had it i would use it, but on the rare occasion that i need a third TIP i use the tail of my climbing line, very rarely tho.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 27, 2003)

I use a 30 ft lanyard and utilize most of it on almost every big tree. I can lanyard into more places and work myself away from them. 

A few weeks ago I tried to go back to a 9ft lanyard, and it sucked (Not your work Nick, the lenght I had you make it.)

I've thought of putting a prussick on the tail end, as Stumper uses in his BEDA, or the old fashioned "prussick" lanyards. Not raly owrth it to me since I climb more like I'm using two lines instead of a lanrad and climbing line. Just every once and a while I would like to flip into something before moving the lanyard, Like tom says, when the tip is at a real flat angle.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 27, 2003)

I find the DEDA so useful, I wouldn't be without it. There are times when it does get to be a bird's nest though. That's one of the prices that I'm willing to pay to have such a useful system. Having the Positioners makes it smoother than using hitches and snaps for slack tenders. 

There are times, even in a decurrent crown, that I use the DEDA to ascend into a lead. IF my climbing line isn't tied into a great place, I might find myself pulled off-lead. With the DEDA I can ascend and leave my climbing line slack out a little without worrying about taking a slam dunk.

Even though I don't always use both Adjusters, I do use the 20' lanyard a lot.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 27, 2003)

i just upped to 22' from all JP's posts about 30', working pretty well acutally. i am looking at doing something like Stumper wiht end of daisey chain.

Have dropped the microscender, gone rope after reading Tom's posts, now; more gear.

Took, Brian's threading the lanyard thru the karab, to the D,

to back up the self tending action of Knut's hitch someone posted, 

Not to mention Sherrill's aluminum snap for other end,


That i tied to the D ring like Mark Chisholm,

Only real tight with barrel for first leg straight to D, then Knut, then around D, to lobster first leg, for neat finish.

And i guess i'm liking it real well, it stays on top of the D, adjusts very smoothly in and out, loaded or not.

So, i guess i can take all the credit for that , after all i did tie the last knot diffrent, to make it more compact. Acctually is pretty tight,a nd smaller than microscender after working all the slack out.

Thanks a lot all!
-KC


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## rahtreelimbs (May 28, 2003)

This lanyard evolvement has been really interesting. I just switched to a Distel and micropulley setup on my lanyard. One thing that I am trying is a 30 ft. lanyard ( thanx JPS ). I have one of those accessary bags from Sherrill. I stuff the tail in the bag like throwline and let it come out right next to the snap on the bag. I have been tying a slipknot in the tail to keep from having too much rope come out. If I need more I simply remove the slipknot. Since I use a Buckingham master saddle with all its extra tie points I can move the lanyard off of the side D-ring to a center tie in D-ring and have a point for double crotch. The jury is still out as to how much I will like this. I only use it on big crown pruning jobs.


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## Stumper (May 28, 2003)

'Fess up now Tom you ARE a gear snob! - A friendly, helpful one. All these discussions are great for helping us see the possibilities for our own applications. For years I thought that an adjustable buckstrap was the pinacle of lanyard development. When that was completely inadequate I used a second climbing line and never bothered to think about a better lanyard (actually that isn't completely true-I did make a longer bucksrap than I was able to buy "standard")-the buckstrap worked 'pretty well' after all!Ahh.....but I'm feeling much better now! :


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## BrianCooke (May 28, 2003)

Thanks Sean, good to know. Would you mind giving a little info on them to those who are relatively new to this whole tree climbing bit. Just curious what the Positioners do and how they do it (see my post above).

Again thanks,
Brian


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## Tom Dunlap (May 28, 2003)

It's been said that Hubert's ART tools are expensive replacements for free knots. That is true, at a really basic level. But then again, a lowering device is a very expensive replacement for tree wraps. The user has to decide the value of the tool.

Tom [the friendly gear snob  ]


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## Dan Flinn (May 28, 2003)

I went to the long lanyard with a distel/pulley setup and I really do like it. 

I have a problem with all the excess hanging there, so the bag idea is cool. I have to solve another problem, though, the distel/pulley attachment is on the side I hang my chainsaw and it ALWAYS gets tangled in the excess lanyard.

Oh well, growing pains are a small price to pay for advancement!

Brian, we should get together and climb some. I'm always looking for new ideas!

Dan


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## Tom Dunlap (May 28, 2003)

Dan,

JPS referred to one method of taking care of some of the long tail. 

Secure the end of the lanyard to a loop on your saddle behind the side d-ring. Then use some shoelace or small cord and tie a friction hitch around the lanyard. Attach this hitch to your saddle near the dead end. This will store the excess back "around the corner" behind your hip, a little away from your chainsaw. When you need the full length, you pull it out of storage. Its much quicker doing this than stuffing or daisy chaining.

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 29, 2003)

Tom, do you have a little tiny fair lead for the little tiny shoelace hitch? We should get ART working on a micro positioner for that.  
Did you ever think of putting one positioner on each side?


Small diameter rope is better for the longer lanyards, otherwise bulk and weight become an issue.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 29, 2003)

Mike,

If I put a P on each side, I'd have a loop to contend with. There are three loops of rope with two P's in the system. After climbing with my lanyard on the left for thirty years I think my brain and muscles are pretty hardwired. I'd be searching for my lanyard if I changed now 

Tom


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## BrianCooke (May 29, 2003)

Hey Dan, 

Asheville huh, I had a grandfather who grew up there. In fact his father had the Civil engineering company that built the Beaucatcher Tunnel. 

My wife is from Brevard and has a lot of family still there. Small world indeed.

I'd be up for climbing some time, drop me aline and we'll see what we can do.

Thanks & take care,
Brian Cooke


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## BrianCooke (May 29, 2003)

Thanks Rocky, for some reason the name Dave Mattox sounds incredibly familiar. I'll have to get in touch with him. Would you mind dropping me his email ([email protected]) just in case.

Thanks for your reply,
Brian Cooke


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 29, 2003)

Guess that shoe lace might work better than the piece of throwline i tried with extra lanyard tail support.

Am realy liking the extra long 22' long lanyard, don't tell ol'JP; but i kinda wish i did make it longer now, which would fit with Mike's suggestion of lower diameter/stashable line.

Instead of using a short lifeline today (that i keep around); i used the long lanyard instead.

i always carry a 3rd attatchment, a wide D karab and 4' sling mostly for redirects, but also have a Sherrill 'express sling on the karab for exteending bridge. Now the sling can add 4' extra to lanyard. Also, i choked/girthed it to D, and used karab to make like a short lanyard for 2x TieIns for 'legally' running saw.

Then, on some of the even lighter DW etc., no powersaw, gym shoes, but still earplugs in for peace as i played with handsaw/ pole saw. 

So i guess i can downgrade short lifeline, and have less gear, as i just begin to explore this level that Big'Un been saying all along about longer lanyard. Guess even with those long legs, he's easier to catch up to here, than TD constantly running point on this path!

And........ is DEDA always on 1 side, not 1 adjuster on each hip?


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *And........ is DEDA always on 1 side, not 1 adjuster on each hip? *



Well, he only cut one D-ring off....


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## Tom Dunlap (May 29, 2003)

I can't see what advantage there would be to have a Positioner on each hip. Maybe I'm having another thick-headed moment again. Please explain.

So far, I haven't cut off the left D-ring. I'm pretty sure that I will though. The square MR is rated way above 5k# so I'm not worried about the regs. Since I didn't modify the saddle, just changed attachments no one should worry about it. It's no difference than using any other biner or MR to attach a lanyard to the saddle D-ring.

Tom


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 29, 2003)

A few fellas around here that try to be safe use 2 fixed lanyards (these are the advanced guys....) 1 on each hip and no split tail, to sell them on 2 lanyards like that (lanyard and split tail). so they climb up to tie in, flipping lanyards and spiking, but any way kinda looks natural on the lanyards sometime.

Not my style. i made one of them a 19' lanyard with knut on each hip, girthed throwline scrap punched into center backpad, and a swivel line holder also on each side that he loves, for it uses that same style of feeding from both sides. Which besides carrying my saw on my left, and no synthetics; kinda seems better (or more familiar?) than both on 1 side. So figured i'd ask! Someone pointed out it was a DEDA, i really didn't know/had forgotten that that was an accronym for the function. But, any way this pattern of hanging from hip to hip, yields more length storage room in the loops behind legs if nothing else.



What is the minimal strength/diameter of line recomended and commanded for lanyard?

This is the pic i posted and the pattern of the line running behind the wearer to each D, to give adjustable length available to either side while having loops higher than most steps at full, and out of the way to the rear storage.


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## rahtreelimbs (May 30, 2003)

Wasn't there a pic of Tom's original DEDA set-up using Distal hitches? Can anyone point me in the right direction?


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## Tom Dunlap (May 30, 2003)

You have to go over to Tr**buzz and search on DEDA. Hillbilly made a nice graphic.

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *I can't see what advantage there would be to have a Positioner on each hip. Maybe I'm having another thick-headed moment again. Please explain.
> 
> 
> Tom *



Didn't you ever watch the old westerns? The gun slinger always had one gun on each hip, not two guns on one hip.
I wonder if there might be an advantage in situations where your all bunched up on one side, or turned to one side, and if the snap was out in the open on the other side it might save some digging.

I'm having a thick headed moment myself, figuring out why there would be an extra loop.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 30, 2003)

here is why there are three loops:

Snap to #1 Postioner
#1 Positioner to #2 Positioner
#2 Positioner to snap

I'm going to look at looping the middle loop behind my back through a small ring. Tree Spyder gave me the idea.

Since I use a leg scabbard for my handsaw, my right side isn't really cluttered.

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 31, 2003)

> TheTreeSpyder wrote on 05-31-2003 04:39 AM:
> So what is your preference for Safe Strength/ Minimized Diameter-Weight?
> 
> Don't ever remember you directly saying as this has come up before......



Certainly, it must meet 5400 mbs. After that, any size goes in my book. I use my lanyard hard, so longevity is an issue. I don't want to be making a new one every few days, or working with one that has snags. The smaller the rope, the faster it wears. I tried some of the HMDP(kevlar type) unjacketed rope and it wore very poorly, that test(and the rope) lasted about two days.

I'm using a fly lanyard now and would not like it any thicker than that. There's a nice hank of 5/16" ultra tech floating around in my truck somewhere, I bet that would be sweet, although the thin jacket wouldn't last too long.

To keep these comments on topic, the ART positioners require a certain size rope, so not much choice there. They(mechanical devices) can be fussy about the type of rope too, is that right Tom?


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## Tom Dunlap (May 31, 2003)

Mike points out a short coming of mechanicals. I'm using 7/16" static line for my lanyard now. It works fine with the Positioners. this rope has a 6k# breaking strength and a really tough shell. I don't mind having the barrel hitch tieing the snap to the rope. It would be nice to have a splice though. I've got a lot of this rope though. I used a Tibloc for one day and it chewed the sheath in a number of places so I retired both the rope and the Tibloc.

Yesterday I picked up some round, split collars that will clamp around the square MR. This will keep the Positioners in place and not flopping around. I'm going to see about putting one on each hip too. That's intriguing.

Tom


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## rahtreelimbs (May 31, 2003)

Tom in what climbing positions do you find that the DEDA setup helps you the most?


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## Tom Dunlap (May 31, 2003)

This afternoon I made some changes to my DEDA, thanks to some tips on this thread. 

The plain end snap is still attached on my left, to the square MR. I found a split collar that clamps around the vertical leg to keep the Positioner at the top of the vertical leg. After the rope comes out I passed it around behind my back. The rope goes through a split ring like you use for keys which is attached to the waist of my saddle. then the rope goes to the right side. I took a delta link from one of my Ness saddles and looped it through the webbing on my Butterfly. The screw gate is on the bottom which keeps the P out at the end of the delta. The red snap is on that end of the lanyard. Red is Right. 

I haven't climbed with the setup yet. After I rigged it I looped it over the tall posts on my fence and I think this is a huge improvement. If I wanted to I could add even more length to the lanyard because the loops are behind my back. Next week I'll be climbing on the setup and I'll post back.

The best place to use the DEDA is when ascending into excurrent trees or ones with a lot of limbs. This is an outgrowth of double lanyard climbing. I know that some climbers will use the end of their climbing line instead of a second lanyard but that doesn't fit my style of climbing. 

The next place that the DEDA works is when the TIP keeps my climbing line at a flat angle. Then, all I count on the rope for is a descent. Less likely to use it for positioning. With the DEDA I can really fine tune my placements. When I prune I spend most of my time out in the ends of the limbs. Instead of setting up redirects, I use the lanyard for support. I still carry a small double sheave pulley for redis though. 

As others have said, a long lanyard opens up a lot of different climbing and positioning situations.

The more I tweak the lanyard system the more I see how neglected this piece of kit has been in the development of technique. 

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *I'm using 7/16" static line for my lanyard now. It works fine with the Positioners. this rope has a 6k# breaking strength and a really tough shell.
> Tom *



Do you know, off hand, the brand and/or the source of the rope?
When I saw the picture, my first thought was it looked pretty tough, I might like to get some. 
Do you have trouble tieing knots with this static line at your rope snaps? Some static lines don't bend too well.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jun 1, 2003)

The rope that I use is KMIII. It takes a knot pretty well. I can tie a barrel hitch and only have to leave a two inch tail. No creep either.

Tom


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