# Stump has me stumped



## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

Guess this is a double dogtooth? What purpose is served here? Near as I can tell the lay was parallel to the hinge in the direction of the camera


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## BeatCJ (Mar 29, 2015)

My first thought is that you are giving way too much credit to assume that was done with much purpose. Trees all tend to lean a similar direction, looking at your second photo, I would guess it was leaning over the shorter "peak", to the left. So the taller "peak" was left as a wedging post? Maybe I'm all wet, but I'm seeing boring marks in the stump in the first photo, and it's really hard to figure out what they did and why.


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## 1270d (Mar 29, 2015)

Looks like the taller piece was placed there for your pic. The stump shows GOL technique used exactly how it is taught.


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2015)

1270d said:


> Looks like the taller piece was placed there for your pic. The stump shows GOL technique used exactly how it is taught.


 Nailed it!


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## HuskStihl (Mar 29, 2015)

Standard "tongue-in-groove" face


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## BeatCJ (Mar 29, 2015)

OK, I assumed that was all solid, didn't think that it was re-assembled. I know nothing of GOL, I had never seen it (or even heard of it) until this website. Even still, can't see why you would pop the trigger at an angle like that. The face and hinge makes more sense, now.


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## madhatte (Mar 29, 2015)

Textbook GOL, face replaced


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## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

1270d said:


> Looks like the taller piece was placed there for your pic. The stump shows GOL technique used exactly how it is taught.



If that face was replaced it was done 5 yrs ago when this was logged, I'm the only guy who ever goes in this woods. I did notice the kerf in this side and just thought it was a Dutchman but I will see if it is loose next down I get down there. I don't think there is a top in that direction either but I'll take a look and see if I missed something. Biggest part of these stumps don't have any hingewood either so apparently they were chasing the cut most of them time


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## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

Woody912 said:


> If that face was replaced it was done 5 yrs ago when this was logged, I'm the only guy who ever goes in this woods. I did notice the kerf in this side and just thought it was a Dutchman but I will see if it is loose next down I get down there. I don't think there is a top in that direction either but I'll take a look and see if I missed something. Biggest part of these stumps don't have any hingewood either so apparently they were chasing the cut most of them time



Any chance that face was put back in to swing the tree back to the right during the fall?


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## bitzer (Mar 29, 2015)

They bored it from both sides with a short bar. The taller piece is loose and the face(notch in this case). Maybe it had the stump mark on it and they had to put it back. Cutting the trigger at an angle leaves the flair on the stump. Not unusual stump for around here. I could cut three of em in the amount of time it took him to whittle this one. If the hinge was missing anywhere it was a mistake although most of it looks to be intact.


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## coltont (Mar 29, 2015)

Looks like we're trying to leave the waste wood on the stump so they didn't have to trim it off once it got drove to China in the mud.


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## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

bitzer said:


> They bored it from both sides with a short bar. The taller piece is loose and the face(notch in this case). Maybe it had the stump mark on it and they had to put it back. Cutting the trigger at an angle leaves the flair on the stump. Not unusual stump for around here. I could cut three of em in the amount of time it took him to whittle this one. If the hinge was missing anywhere it was a mistake although most of it looks to be intact.



Appears like that entire job was cut with 16" bars (Pilz MS-170's?), tore up more trees than they took out. Property belongs to my ex ma-in_law and had been logged 4 times since '79, asked me the other day if it could be cut again! Won't listen to anybody she knows and then some gypsy outfit waves a check at her and she jumps on it.


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## treeslayer2003 (Mar 29, 2015)

i thought it was a crown cut at first.....nfg.......maybe it was a gol if that chunk is loose. her woods is tore up cuz them guys didn't care or think about ever having another harvest........again, nfg.

looks like beech is going to take over if y'all not carefull....maybe plan on a low grade selection if enough log sized beech there.


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## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> i thought it was a crown cut at first.....nfg.......maybe it was a gol if that chunk is loose. her woods is tore up cuz them guys didn't care or think about ever having another harvest........again, nfg.
> 
> looks like beech is going to take over if y'all not carefull....maybe plan on a low grade selection if enough log sized beech there.



Actually sassafras and briars are taking over along with poplar and scale is killing the poplar. That particular section is way down in the bottom, hemlock , beech and white oak ( past tense) I would say she is under 30% canopy and the remaining good trees are now sprouting limbs down low which will probably make them #3 logs at best. Her step son and I have given up trying to explain anything to her, her last 3 sales she did not even know how many trees she sold, just gross $.


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## treeslayer2003 (Mar 29, 2015)

scale? where you are, is poplar aspen or tulip?
30% is pretty sparse.


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## Woody912 (Mar 29, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> scale? where you are, is poplar aspen or tulip?
> 30% is pretty sparse.



Tulip poplar. ~25% of that property borders a creek and it appears like there has always been a 100' SMZ off limits on the cuts so there are some 36" poplar in the bottoms that are dying along with the smaller ones. Friend in the nursery biz says scale is epidemic here right now. Place was logged (top ended) in '79, 90, 2000 and 2008 I believe. Could not hardly stand to go down there for 2 yrs after the last cut it was so bad and it gets worse with every storm. Fine collection of crooked and damaged trees , 70' tall sassafras and assorted other junk trees. Hoping to start a swamp chestnut oak planting in the bottoms next yr, maybe my grandson will see them make acorns


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## treeslayer2003 (Mar 29, 2015)

hmm, i deal with alot of tulip here. idk about scale but normaly unless its been thinned a couple times, most of the tulip in a stand will be close in age. in other words the smaller ones will be about as old as the big ones. at 36" they are near the end of there value and will go down hill. solid stands of poplar should be cut pretty hard unless its been managed right. it will regenerate itself pretty well if it get plenty of light. also disturbing the ground alot helps. i know, this goes against most hardwood conventional wisdom but remember tulip is not an oak.
we normaly get a 50' buffer, but can take all tulip trees inside the buffer that can be felled away from the waterway.

sounds like a good idea on the chestnut oak plantings, however if it can drain and there are any tulip around, they will reseed if the light can get to the ground.


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## KiwiBro (Mar 30, 2015)

bitzer said:


> They bored it from both sides with a short bar. The taller piece is loose and the face(notch in this case). Maybe it had the stump mark on it and they had to put it back. Cutting the trigger at an angle leaves the flair on the stump. Not unusual stump for around here. I could cut three of em in the amount of time it took him to whittle this one. If the hinge was missing anywhere it was a mistake although most of it looks to be intact.



Thank you. I must have learned something over the years reading this forum, because I understood every wood of that explanation.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 12, 2015)

bitzer said:


> They bored it from both sides with a short bar. The taller piece is loose and the face(notch in this case). Maybe it had the stump mark on it and they had to put it back. Cutting the trigger at an angle leaves the flair on the stump. Not unusual stump for around here. I could cut three of em in the amount of time it took him to whittle this one. If the hinge was missing anywhere it was a mistake although most of it looks to be intact.



So since he cut to keep the flare on the stump( maybe) then would he not have to clean up the butt? If so then it was pointless and he could have left a step for saftey and not flat with holding wood.
Why such an exaggerated undercut? the opening is huge, way over a one to one ratio, 1-1 would be something you would do on a Swanson or Pie/birds mouth.
1/2 to 1 would give you a 3" opening at 45°with a 6" depth. This guys just under 70° I'd bet. But yet he's about cutting in the duff. Not making a lot of sense to me?

*EDIT CHANGE 
Meant degrees but originally wrote percent.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 12, 2015)

Woody912 said:


> Any chance that face was put back in to swing the tree back to the right during the fall?


Lol...who's teaching you that stuff.
Definitely not recognized practices.
Booting trees, 'floating Dutchman' no never heard of it..lol
No, not a chance, it would have to be a smaller piece on one side. Wouldn't work with that overly steep angle either.
Very very bad...don't try this at home.


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## bitzer (Apr 12, 2015)

Westboastfaller said:


> So since he cut to keep the flare on the stump( maybe) then would he not have to clean up the butt? If so then it was pointless and he could have left a step for saftey and not flat with holding wood.
> Why such an exaggerated undercut? the opening is huge, way over a one to one ratio, 1-1 would be something you would do on a Swanson or Pie/birds mouth.
> 1/2 to 1 would give you a 3" opening at 45% with a 6" depth. This guys just under 70% I'd bet. But yet he's about cutting in the duff. Not making a lot of sense to me?


Hes trying to leave the waste on the stump so he doesn't have to clean the butt and maybe got a little lazy with it. Besides, some mills don't mind a little snipe. The wide open face and boring from both sides is indicitive of GOL cutting stlye. I've seen where guys scratch a nearly 90 degree piece out and call it a 'notch'. The problem with this cutting style is that it assumes too much and doesn't teach the mechanics of control. This is pretty typical in hardwood logging. I don't cut that way, but a good portion does.


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## Gologit (Apr 12, 2015)

bitzer said:


> Hes trying to leave the waste on the stump so he doesn't have to clean the butt and maybe got a little lazy with it. Besides, some mills don't mind a little snipe. The wide open face and boring from both sides is indicitive of GOL cutting stlye. I've seen where guys scratch a nearly 90 degree piece out and call it a 'notch'. The problem with this cutting style is that it assumes too much and doesn't teach the mechanics of control. This is pretty typical in hardwood logging. I don't cut that way, but a good portion does.


 
Yup. It's the old "if I make a big enough notch the tree will absolutely go where I want it to" school of thought.
Too bad it doesn't always work that way.


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## Whitespider (Apr 17, 2015)

Stump has me stumped‼
That's a good one 

*I'VE MOVED HERE*


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## Woody912 (Apr 19, 2015)

Woody912 said:


> Guess this is a double dogtooth? What purpose is served here? Near as I can tell the lay was parallel to the hinge in the direction of the cameraView attachment 415535
> View attachment 415536



well, youth turkey season opened here yesterday. Called in a couple birds for the grandson near there and then walked over and looked at that stump. As many said, the pc of the right is loose and has apparently just been sitting there for 5 yrs. Why anyone would put it back baffles me but apparently they did! Fall makes perfect sense now but it sure baffled me before. I think these guys were black belt dutchman cutters


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## Gypo Logger (Apr 20, 2015)

My guess is he didn't want to cut his face.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 27, 2015)

90°...may work on a carrot tree lol
Its so much slower too. The only advantage is they can see the inside of the undercut. I would take a knee or bend and look.
Thanks for that.


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 27, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Yup. It's the old "if I make a big enough notch the tree will absolutely go where I want it to" school of thought.
> Too bad it doesn't always work that way.


And if you marry up your cuts and and its facing a bit down the hill then how do you get a sailing Dutch to stick to boot it back up into lay.....lol


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 27, 2015)

Lol....I seen that on a vid,he didn't have to
Bend down and look Inside
Maybe I'll start doing that...lol
Could you imagine in big wood?
You'd fuel out, not to mention it would be 300lb heavier. the only time thats done is
doing a westcoast Swanson; taking a steep angle out of the front of your Humboldt,
thats a bItçh!


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## Westboastfaller (Apr 27, 2015)

^^^^


Gypo Logger said:


> My guess is he didn't want to cut his face.


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## smokechase II (Oct 14, 2015)

bitzer said:


> They bored it from both sides with a short bar. The taller piece is loose and the face(notch in this case). Maybe it had the stump mark on it and they had to put it back. Cutting the trigger at an angle leaves the flair on the stump. Not unusual stump for around here. I could cut three of em in the amount of time it took him to whittle this one. If the hinge was missing anywhere it was a mistake although most of it looks to be intact.



I'm not certain this is _textbook_ GOL.
The steep face and the boring back cut with an undersized saw are typical of GOL.
The angled finish of the very rear of the back cut may be an example of a local technique added.

There are several things wrong here.
That angle rear cut being the icing on a moldy stump.


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## smokechase II (Oct 14, 2015)

Just to mention it.
Using undersized bars limits ones safety.

If you can make all your cuts from either side you can avoid being under hazards on the 'bad side' or placing yourself in a spot with a poor escape route.
Topography can also remove falling options with short bars.

GOL is surprisingly obstinate about using short bars.
Remember, its a small tree falling technique from Scandanavia.

Often in the US GOL gets common sense modifications like using appropriate sized saws/bars for the timber here.
Not trying to justify it. Just promote common sense.


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## Gologit (Oct 14, 2015)

smokechase II said:


> Just to mention it.
> Using undersized bars limits ones safety.
> 
> If you can make all your cuts from either side you can avoid being under hazards on the 'bad side' or placing yourself in a spot with a poor escape route.
> ...



Good to see you back here.


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