# Confused about narrow kerf



## luvloudsawz (Sep 20, 2017)

I use Stihl products. Right now I run a 25" bar, 3/8 .050 chains. I have a 20" bar, .050. So, to try narrower kerf, with Stihl specifically, do I go to a .325 with the .050 or do I stay with 3/8 .050 and go with a 3/8 micro, lp, or picco 3/8?

Thanks for the help, it's greatly appreciated!


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## x101airborne (Sep 20, 2017)

I have never been a fan of a narrow kerf chain. Especially when cutting pulp wood.
Are you doing some specialty cutting or just looking to minimize wood chips?


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## hseII (Sep 20, 2017)

luvloudsawz said:


> I use Stihl products. Right now I run a 25" bar, 3/8 .050 chains. I have a 20" bar, .050. So, to try narrower kerf, with Stihl specifically, do I go to a .325 with the .050 or do I stay with 3/8 .050 and go with a 3/8 micro, lp, or picco 3/8?
> 
> Thanks for the help, it's greatly appreciated!



3 different chains
3 different Rim Drives
3 different sprockets

Some Claim to run Picco on a regular 3/8" bar, but it doesn't sit correct on the tip. 
I don't see how that wouldn't cause issues over time.

Cannon makes & sells bars to fit your Saw for Picco chain, but why?

I tried it on my 261, & it threw chain worse than anything I've ever seen with a 20".

I prefer top Handle & pole saws to run Picco.
Baby saws, 50cc, to run .325"

59cc to 90cc, run 3/8". 

YMMV


Why are you wanting to run Picco on a Saw with a 25" bar?


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## JeffGu (Sep 20, 2017)

hseII said:


> Why are you wanting to run Picco on a Saw with a 25" bar?



Kinda wondered about that, myself. Maybe he's trying to get more firewood per log... an 1/8" at a time...


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## DR. P. Proteus (Sep 20, 2017)

Narrow kerf means:

1. Less exertion on everything when cutting.

That's about it.


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## hseII (Sep 20, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Kinda wondered about that, myself. Maybe he's trying get more firewood per log... an 1/8" at a time...





He should probably just buy bigger bundles.


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## JeffGu (Sep 20, 2017)

A narrow kerf chain/bar on a small saw allows an underpowered engine to perform better... in small wood. As the wood gets bigger, high chain speed doesn't mean faster cutting speeds because the need to clear the chips out of the kerf is much higher... and for this you need a wider kerf chain. The .325 chain is a nice, intermediate compromise for saws around 50cc and this is the reason Stihl uses it on saws like the MS-261 but goes with 3/8" chain after that.

I'm not sure what performance gains you expect, but I can tell you that a bigger saw running narrow kerf chains/bars will eat through chains a lot faster. If you look at the chains, the reason is obvious... a lot less metal. Cutting bigger wood means the chain is buried in heavy, dense wood for longer periods of time, trying to get through harder, tighter knots and all manner of things that end up inside trees. The lighter chains don't hold up to that abuse as well as the beefier, larger sizes and dull faster, wear out faster and ultimately piss you off faster.


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## hseII (Sep 20, 2017)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Narrow kerf means:
> 
> 1. Less exertion on everything when cutting.
> 
> That's about it.



Except for stress on the drive links when you turn them with a 70cc Saw.

I'd still like to see the pics, however.


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## hseII (Sep 20, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> A narrow kerf chain/bar on a small saw allows an underpowered engine to perform better... in small wood. As the wood gets bigger, high chain speed doesn't mean faster cutting speeds because the need to clear the chips out of the kerf is much higher... and for this you need a wider kerf chain. The .325 chain is a nice, intermediate compromise for saws around 50cc and this is the reason Stihl uses it on saws like the MS-261 but goes with 3/8" chain after that.
> 
> I'm not sure what performance gains you expect, but I can tell you that a bigger saw running narrow kerf chains/bars will eat through chains a lot faster. If you look at the chains, the reason is obvious... a lot less metal. Cutting bigger wood means the chain is buried in heavy, dense wood for longer periods of time, trying to get through harder, tighter knots and all manner of things that end up inside trees. The lighter chains don't hold up to that abuse as well as the beefier, larger sizes and dull faster, wear out faster and ultimately piss you off faster.



How Elegant.

What he said.


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## JeffGu (Sep 20, 2017)

hseII said:


> ...when you turn them with a 70cc Saw.



Yeah, you wouldn't put a bicycle chain on a 1900cc motorcycle. A big saw isn't going to slow down when that gimp picco chain can't clear the wood fast enough... it's going to spit that chain in your face.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Sep 20, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Yeah, you wouldn't put a bicycle chain on a 1900cc motorcycle. A big saw isn't going to slow down when that gimp picco chain can't clear the wood fast enough... it's going to spit that chain in your face.



I


hseII said:


> He should probably just buy bigger bundles.




I got lost when the OP started with the numbers. I didn't realize he was putting this super slinky **** on a big saw, I was thinking it was a for a one handed saw. Although I never tried, I get the idea that slim chain would take a beating and a half cutting logs.


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## luvloudsawz (Sep 27, 2017)

Thanks everyone. Sorry for a delayed response to all this - got real busy. So, I was/am going to be bucking a lot of western Juniper, haven't yet (this weekend) but I keep hearing it's terribly hard, and hard on saws. That comes from the BLM guys that cut the stuff. So I found that the .325 with .050 is what I was referencing afte talking with someone around here. Didn't know, that's why I asked. Thought maybe going narrow kerf would make bucking that stuff a little easier if the saw had to move less material. So I thought about throwing a .050 18" bar on an ms271, but the the width between 063 and 050 is marginal enough that I assumed it is not worth spending the money.

So thanks for all the info. I'm just going with my original plan and saving some money after reading this and talking with BLM. Guess I'll buck with a 3/8 20" bar.

Anybody here cut this Western Juniper? The only hardwood I've cut was some honey locusts. Maybe I have cut some other hardwood, but never bothered to find out if it was hardwood; just another tree to cut to me. I was told not to use skip chain on the Juniper, but I cut down some BIG honey locusts and skip flew right threw it fine and it didn't seem any more different that cutting lodgepole really, it might not have cut as fast? but not enough that I can recall with any lasting impression. I was planning on using skip semi-chisel on 25" bar. I imagine it'll be okay. Just wondering if anyone has spent time cutting these things and what their opinions are. I think I might be creating some anxiety about my equiptment by listening to all the stuff people say about these Junipers. Or maybe they are correct and I should worry.

Anyways, that's why I was asking about narrow kerf. Seems to be more headache, trouble, and money than it's worth. So, yeah, A big thank you to all of you and your responses.


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## ironman_gq (Sep 27, 2017)

I wouldn't say .050 is a narrow kerf chain in .325 or 3/8, in fact it's more of a standard kerf. Stihl does make a narrow kerf chain for their smaller saws, picco or low profile in 3/8 and an even narrower .043 gauge chain fon their really small saws (ms180, ms193 commonly). If your going to run .325 just stick with whatever you have and keep it sharp, the difference between .050 and .063 is negligible as the cutters are the same size, only difference is the thickness of the driver and the width of the bar groove.


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## beastmaster (Sep 27, 2017)

Cutting hard wood it might help to use less angle on your teeth. Think chisel teeth. They'll stay sharp longer and you'll see your chips are shorter.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 27, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Kinda wondered about that, myself. Maybe he's trying to get more firewood per log... an 1/8" at a time...



I was figuring out one day, on a 40ft log I lose about 7" of log to sawdust on my processor. I do end up selling the sawdust though. We fill a "super sack" (about 40"x40x4ft tall) with sawdust with processing 4-5 cords of wood.


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## JeffGu (Sep 27, 2017)

ValleyFirewood said:


> ...lose about 7" of log to sawdust...



Sometimes I put it in the empty dog food bags and give it to the 4H kids who have rabbits and guinea pigs and chickens.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Sep 28, 2017)

JeffGu said:


> Sometimes I put it in the empty dog food bags and give it to the 4H kids who have rabbits and guinea pigs and chickens.



We mainly sell if for animal bedding. Horses, reindeer, cows, chickens, etc.

Used to sell it to a refinery, they were using it to absorb diesel out of the sulfur they were hauling to the landfill.

Talk about $$. They were paying to haul it to the refinery all the was in Kenai, mixing it up with the sulfur and then hauling that mess to the dump here in town. It was something like $3k each trip.

It's been selling oddly for some reason. Up until a few weeks ago I had customers darn near fighting over it, couldn't make it fast enough. Today, I've got about 10 bags waiting to be sold.


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## dboyd351 (Sep 28, 2017)

Not sure about the terminology out there (even though I've lived in Far Northern CA, too) but here on the east coast, a juniper is a softwood and a honey locust is a hardwood. Locusts are some of the harder hardwoods, too. Juniper may be hard compared to some other softwoods, but I think it is still a softwood (non deciduous).


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## luvloudsawz (Sep 28, 2017)

yeah, seems you're right. Everyone was telling me it was a hard wood. I did some research on the 'juniperus occidentalis' and found it is 35% harder than ponderosa and 1/2 as hard as maple, so a dense softwood. Should have some fun this weekend, looking for the juniper. Again, thanks to everyone!


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