# Outdoor Wood Boiler Disaster



## BadgerBob (Mar 6, 2007)

(Note: Feel free to copy and circulate this message. You'll see why.)

Last fall I had installed a Royall 6200 outside wood boiler which worked well until recently. It was 10:00 P.M., February 25, 2007, snowing and 30°F when I fired the boiler for the night (the last forecast I heard was for a low of 20°); shortly after, I turned down the thermostat from 71° to 67°and went to bed. My wife and I slept comfy and warm until 1:30 A.M. – that was when the drama began.

The Royall 6200 is a 200,000 Btu closed system with a blower-induced draft controlled by an adjustable aqua-stat. Through the winter I learned to adequately heat my home by setting the aqua-stat at 185° and adjust the manually operated draft damper according to outside temperature, wind direction and speed, type of wood and solar heat gain – all elements that impact heating/draft requirements. Also, to meet standards, the boiler has a 30 psi relief valve manufactured by Conbraco Industries. 

The boiler supplies our hot water heating system through 1 ¼” pex tubing (Rehau Insulpex). The tubing is buried for 75’, enters the basement wall and then continues for another 15’ where it makes a transition to 1 ¼” type M copper. 

Like I said, it worked all winter: So, what happened? At 1:30 A.M, a deafening explosion actually rocked the house, causing my wife and I to bolt from bed and shout in unison, “What the hell was that?” She thought an airplane hit the house but I, retired but with 33 years of metro firefighting experience, knew what it was by what I heard after the blast – high pressure steam.

Just like back in the day, I immediately dressed, put on boots and began processing a plan of action. Hot steam pushed around the basement door so I reached in with a gloved hand just to turn on the light; then I went outside and opened the cellar door, releasing enough steam so I could enter to shut off the heating system’s power and water supply – I was separated from the rupture by 30’ and a wall. I then scrambled to the boiler and filled the firebox with snow. Okay, with everything under as much control as I could exert and the sound of rushing steam replaced by dribbling water, I reentered the basement to determine what happened.

I discovered a one foot catastrophic rupture of the Insulpex tubing where it entered the basement from the wall. I was amazed, wondering what could have caused the (reported) highest quality pex transfer system to fail so disastrously, but, moreover, I was thankful the blast did not occur while I worked on a project or when I sent one of my grandkids down to fetch canned goods. Since only a few gallons of water stood on the basement floor and steam’s expansion ratio is 1,600 to 1, the system failure could have yielded almost 30,000 cubic feet of scalding steam.

What I’ve learned since the disaster:

Rehau Insulpex: Like all pex, it is rated for a maximum of 80 psi at 200° F. Speaking to a Rehau engineer, he stated – off the record – they test Insulpex for other applications at 240° without failure. So why did it fail?

Was it my entire fault? The boiler obviously became overheated. On the night of my disaster, the weather forecast I heard said the low would be 20° so I set the draft damper at 1/3. But, in fact, the temperature rose to 35°. Had I known that, I would have set it to about 1/6 open. 

The relief valve: Conbraco Industries told me their relief valve (10-407) was the safest thing on the boiler and that it absolutely would release at 30 psi. They also stated that the installed valve was not suitable for the application. He told me to read the tag affixed to the valve – I did. “4) DO NOT use this valve on a coal or wood boiler having an uncontrolled Btu heat input.” Since my boiler has a manually operated damper, it is uncontrolled. (A controlled boiler would be one where the aquastat not only stops the draft motor at a set temperature, but would also automatically close the draft opening.)

I kept digging because the Insulpex “should” have withstood up to 240° at 80 psi and the relief valve should have released at 30 psi despite the boiler’s lack of draft control. I found the answer when I discovered a steam temperature/pressure chart. At 30 psi, steam is 274° F. Somewhere below 30 psi – 29 psi @ 270°, for all I know – the superheated water entered the pex within the basement. At that point, free from the pressure of 4’ of compacted cold earth and exposed to room temperature, the pex softened and expanded, ultimately exploding the supply tube. At the moment of rupture, the pressure within the tube became 1 atmosphere, allowing all the water above 212° to directly become steam which caused the violent and instantaneous steam release. 

Appraised of the facts as I knew them, I contacted the installer who came to the site within 8 hours – he scratched his head in disbelief. He said he had seen these boilers reach 240° with Insulpex installed with no adverse effect. In fact, I had noticed my boiler reach that temperature several times whereupon I immediately closed the draft and turned up the thermostats to use up the accumulated heat. 

I then contacted the Royall manufacturer who nearly immediately told me that over-fired boilers voided the warranty. I told him that the instruction booklet had no directions for setting the aquastat and the draft, that the relief valve was not the proper type, that the boiler should have a temperature/pressure (T&P) relief valve much like a hot water heater, that his boiler should have an automatic draft damper and that pex tubing (something Royall recommends under a different brand) could not withstand the boiler’s potential output. He said he would get back to me.

Recommendations:

Anyone with a Royall boiler, or one with its characteristics, who installed pex supply tubing with its terminus inside the house, should immediately shut it down until a transition to copper is made outside the building. The below-ground pressure and temperature keep the pex intact but catastrophic failure is likely when the tubing is relieved of pressure within a warm basement. If in close proximity, one may expect injury or death from shrapnel, a steam-burned airway and extensive 3rd degree burns.

Additionally, if the boiler (closed system) is not refitted to limit its output to 200° F, one can expect buried pex tubing to fail prematurely. 

This recommendation does not apply to open systems and those boilers equipped with a properly rated T&P relief valve and equipped with an automatic damper control.

In Conclusion:

I’ve heard nothing more from the installer and manufacturer. I believe justice indicates they should make things right, so, if they make light of this experience, I’ll be forced to litigate.

http://www.royallfurnace.com/OutdoorPressure.htm
http://www.rstreps.com/pdf/INSULPEX 855[1].806.pdf
http://www.conbraco.com/products/safety/techtemplate_1.asp?pid=10-Series


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## oakman (Mar 7, 2007)

i would modify it and make it an open system. or replace it with one. i've seen malfunctioning inside boilers blow houses apart. i saw a 40 gallon water heater with a stuck t&p go from the basement out through the roof. it ain't worth it, man.


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## SmokinDodge (Mar 7, 2007)

Badger Bob what style or brand of line does the manufacturer reccomend to install between the boiler and house?

Sorry for your trouble and a dang glad no one was around when it happened!


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## windthrown (Mar 7, 2007)

*Open systems are the only way to go.*

One of the big reasons we bought the Central Boiler OWB is that it is an open system. Also has UL approval. Our CB unit boiled over a few times, and like, nothing dramatic happens after the boil-over. Some water steams out the vent and dribbles down the sides, and that's it. The phase change from water to steam takes all the extra heat away and the temp drops down about 20 degrees. All you have to do after a CB open system boil-over is to add a little water and find out what happened. When our system was new, the damper door was not closing all the way. Got a new damper mount and damper from CB under warantee (they called back the same day I called them about it). They also gave me a 3 year supply of corrosion inhibitor for free (to compensate for the boiled over losses). No boil-overs since the new damper was installed. 

Sounds weird about all that adjusting on the Royall boiler for weather and such. With the CB we just add more wood if it is colder. That's it. I set the temperature on the boiler to 165 F (lowest that they run at) and keep the house t-stat at 70 degrees all the time. No draft fan on our CB. We have a hydronic radiant floor heating system and a hot water heater on the boiler loop. Both stay hot with no adjustments needed. 

Sorry to hear about your plight, and the lack of reasonable response from the installer and company. Weird about the boil-over voiding the warantee. That is like a car engine blowing up and the dealer saying that an engine failure voids the warantee. No such clause in the CB 25 year warantee. Will keep your post here for future reference.


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## turnkey4099 (Mar 7, 2007)

A very little bit of water in a closed system adds up to impressive force. My neighbor back when installed an old kitchen range with water back in the basement. Probably wasn't much more than a teaspoon or so of water in the pipes but when he capped them off it was enough. Shrapnel scars throughou the basement but no penetration to the first floor.

Harry K


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## geofore (Mar 7, 2007)

*boiler bombs*

You can ask why doesn't your boiler have a soft plug in it? It would be the same as the metal they use in a fire sprinkler system, a mix of lead and bismuth that melts at 255F. It's about $16.79 a pound at a specialty metals store. It melts at 255F every time. I have about 20 ingots of it, Cerro Metals makes it. It's an eutectic alloy. I have a hard time believing your boiler doesn't have a soft plug in it. I have never installed a boiler without one. 

There should be a spot (female pipe fitting) to place a pipe reducer in the top of your boiler. Pour the reducer full of the metal, you can melt it on the kitchen stove. Let it cool and then screw it into the top of the boiler. Then when the temp hits 255F it melts and you'll be able to hear the steam whistling out of the top of the boiler and not the pex blowing the line out in the house. It'll work even if the pressure relief valve fails or you don't get to 30 lbs. of pressure. If water in the top of the boiler gets to 255F, it melts, the steam is released. It doesn't wait for the pressure to build, it just goes to a liquid state at 255F. 

With the right mix of lead and bismuth you can lower the temp even more or raise it even higher, it's just a matter of what temperature you want it to melt and relieve the pressure at. A soft plug doesn't fail like a pressure relief valve could and in your case, did.


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 7, 2007)

Having a manual draft door that cant shut down automatically and a closed system would have led me away from that whole deal in a heartbeat, a disaster waiting to happen, cant believe they can sell such crap. Sorry for no encouragement here but gesh!!! In addition, that you have to be a weather scientist to operate that system is total BS. with any well designed and quality built OWB you put wood in and it takes care of itself, period. You need to get rid of that manual set draft or make it an open system or better yet make them take it back to avoid a lawsuit IMO. Am so glad that nobody was hurt and thanks for warning anyone who may be operating or getting ready to buy one of those.


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## stonykill (Mar 7, 2007)

*constant draft adjustment*

I don't understand the constant draft adjustment. I simply load mine, and let the auto draft do its thing. On my free heat machine, the manual draft is simply set for burning wet or dry wood. All it does is allow the door blower to grab more air. I really think you are making way too much work for yourself. As for the boiler pressure you had built up, mine clearly and boldly states do not pressurize! I guess our systems are different animals, and it makes me glad I did months of research before I dropped the 10 grand for an entire, 2 building heating system.


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## ghitch75 (Mar 7, 2007)

wood,closed lopp=BOOOOMMM!!!

even the best relief vavles on the market will lime or coroad up and hang....seen it to many times on gas & oil boilers....and whats up with the manual draft?

take off the relief and put mechcainal damper in with an aqua stat and run it as an open system

i'm sure they won't warranty it or replace it......so this would be your best bet...


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## BIG JAKE (Mar 7, 2007)

No expert here-Maybe a previous post covered and I didn't see it. I saw the one about the lead thing. They make burst discs that are designed to fail at set pressures. Pressure relief valves are usually pretty reliable, but if they stick or get crudded up they may not work. I had a plumber tell me one time to exercise those valves on occasion(on a water heater). A burst disc in addition to the pressure relief valve would be a good thing to have. Luckily no one got hurt. All hindsight I know but you can always make it better/safer going forward. Cheap insurance that protects people, equipment, and saves you money in these rare instances.


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## ktm rider (Mar 7, 2007)

Butch(OH) said:


> Having a manual draft door that cant shut down automatically and a closed system would have led me away from that whole deal in a heartbeat, a disaster waiting to happen, cant believe they can sell such crap. .




Butch,
That is exactly what I tought also when I read this. Talk about a ticking time bomb. You better get that draft setting right the first time because your life literally depends on it with this POS.


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## Husky137 (Mar 7, 2007)

Sounds like a poorly designed system or possibly a poorly understood system. With all that screwing around with damper adjustments,I'm gonna lean toward the second scenario.


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## ray benson (Mar 7, 2007)

If you installed it, someone sold you the wrong relief valve for your application. Some relief valves are both temperature and pressure valves. I would expect warning after warning on the installation instructions in regards to safety valves. The soft plug( that geofore explained) for catastrophic failure should be mandatory. Is the tubing reusable after the failure?


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## stonykill (Mar 7, 2007)

Husky137 said:


> Sounds like a poorly designed system or possibly a poorly understood system. With all that screwing around with damper adjustments,I'm gonna lean toward the second scenario.




not only that, but if the damper was messed with that much, how much was the aqua stat messed with and to what extent. Mine clearly states, right on the aquastat, DO NOT ADJUST! I can't imagine the manufacturer covering anything on this, with all the admitted messing with the aqua stat. There are certain adjustments that you just leave alone, or hire a pro to do. With all the constant fooling around with this owb, this guy needs to pay for oil. Some people weren't meant to burn wood, I think this guy is one of them. :monkey:


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 7, 2007)

Ya know guys, I go back and re-read this post, the wording used and all and notice first time poster and I start to smell a rat, maybe I am a conspiracy type or cynic because of all the anti OWB crap on the net but I looked at Royals site and there is no manual damper and the thing is UL listed as we might figure it would be in order that it could be sold here, no way for it to have parts and pieces that are not supposed to be together and UL listed, that is why we have UL listing,, aint it? They are tough with listing boilers as theyt well should be. The bursting of the pex is one thing and totaly beliveable but the reflief valve not being correct for the device installed on, no way,,, or lawsuit time.

Anyway apologies offered badger bob if I am FOS here with post number 2. The house beside mine suffered a boiler explosion due to jury rigged safetys about 20 years ago and the result was scary. I was home when it happened


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## stonykill (Mar 7, 2007)

Butch(OH) said:


> Ya know guys, I go back and re-read this post, the wording used and all and notice first time poster and I start to smell a rat, maybe I am a conspiracy type or cynic because of all the anti OWB crap on the net but I looked at Royals site and there is no manual damper and the thing is UL listed as we might figure it would be in order that it could be sold here, no way for it to have parts and pieces that are not supposed to be together and UL listed, that is why we have UL listing,, aint it? They are tough with listing boilers as theyt well should be. The bursting of the pex is one thing and totaly beliveable but the reflief valve not being correct for the device installed on, no way,,, or lawsuit time.
> 
> Anyway apologies offered badger bob if I am FOS here with post number 2. The house beside mine suffered a boiler explosion due to jury rigged safetys about 20 years ago and the result was scary. I was home when it happened



you read my mind, I was thinking the same thing. I think badger bob is on a mission to outlaw OWB's


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## habanero (Mar 7, 2007)

Butch(OH) said:


> Ya know guys, I go back and re-read this post, the wording used and all and notice first time poster and I start to smell a rat, maybe I am a conspiracy type or cynic because of all the anti OWB crap on the net but I looked at Royals site and there is no manual damper and the thing is UL listed as we might figure it would be in order that it could be sold here, no way for it to have parts and pieces that are not supposed to be together and UL listed, that is why we have UL listing,, aint it? They are tough with listing boilers as theyt well should be. The bursting of the pex is one thing and totaly beliveable but the reflief valve not being correct for the device installed on, no way,,, or lawsuit time.
> 
> Anyway apologies offered badger bob if I am FOS here with post number 2. The house beside mine suffered a boiler explosion due to jury rigged safetys about 20 years ago and the result was scary. I was home when it happened



I was also wondering if this were some kind of internet urban legend or something. The first line in parenthesis made me suspicious. But then, I am cynical by nature and never believe anything until proven...


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## stonykill (Mar 7, 2007)

BadgerBob said:


> It was 10:00 P.M., February 25, 2007, snowing and 30°F when I fired the boiler for the night (the last forecast I heard was for a low of 20°);



fired the boiler for the night? This is total bs. Anyone who knows anything about an OWB knows that you fire it for the season, not the night. Seems between the "global warming" crowd last week, and this, the site is being invaded by tree hugging hippies


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## bassman (Mar 7, 2007)

I have a cozeburn 250 that is pretty much a central boiler lookalike.
one time i was cleaning the ash pan and pushed it back in but never locked it so air was able to keep going in and the result was a temp of 225 and water boiling out the VENT tube .
I heard my grunfos pump starting to squeal and that is what let me know there was a problem.
I quickly turned on my fill valve that is taken from the hot water tank to get the water level up and closed my ash pan .
the next day i inspected my boiler and hoses and all was well.
a lesson learned but in my case the vent saved me.
I would think anyone running a boiler that was presurized would understand that they will blow up if there are no safty valves installed.
you just have to know what you are doing and have common sence.
the guy i bought my boiler from installed it into my greenhouse knowing that it would not be in use for half of the winter and did not put in valves to let me drain the exchanger completely.
so you guessed it it froze and cracked .
so when i installed my system to the house and redid the greenhouse i put in valves on each line so i can drain all of it or just one part like my floor heat completely.
the xtra cash on valves pay for themselvs over time or when there is a problem or leak anywhere in the system.


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## BadgerBob (Mar 7, 2007)

*To the skeptics*

Am I an OWB Commie? My wife thinks I'm an OWB nut! Instead of taking her out, I spent the good days this winter cutting all my wood for next season -- the log pile has spilled over into her parking spot.

Ooops! I trusted the advice of the licensed HVAC guy who installed my interior boiler. He said the Royall 6200 was a good deal and their website reenforced that belief. No, the instruction manual has nothing to say about the proper aquastat setting; there are no warnings; not even suggestions. Am I lying about the draft adjustment? It's a plate covering the draft motor intake, held in place by a wingnut. And the manual says nothing about that either.

It's UL listed. Okay, if I ran type M copper from the boiler to the house, there wouldn't be a problem because copper can take 30 psi and a whole lot more, but both Royall and the installer (and everyone else, for that matter) recommended pex-a for the transfer medium. That, my friends, is the weak link requiring a relief valve with a lower rating, which I might add, Conbraco sells (13-211, 3/4", 5 psi). 

And what about UL listing? What does that mean? It means the unit passed every test THE MANUFACTURER asked UL to test if for. Let that soak in for a minute.

Am I a complete idiot (or whatever I was called)? Well, Monday morning quarterbacks, I trusted the licensed HVAC guy who does fine work and I trusted the company that produced a nice web page and slick brochures. I had my reasons for choosing a closed system but I'll admit I didn't know enough about boilers. I have a Burnham boiler in my basement and I didn't need to test for a boiler license to fire it up -- my OWB should be the same but I've discovered that just ain't so.

And to the gentle person who took exception to my wording, "fired for the night," in these parts it means to put enough wood in the firebox to last until morning. 

That's it for now, gentle folks as well those with rough edges. I've contacted a state boiler inspector, an HVAC expert witness and one of those high-priced lawyers. I don't know what will happen next but all these professionals know my highest priority is for the folks at Royall to notify every purchaser of the danger. For the sake of the ignorant, that ain't anti OWB --it's called justice.


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## stonykill (Mar 7, 2007)

*owb commie?*

well I may have missed something...but I don't think anyone called you a commie, an idiot, or anything of the sort. Are you crazy for constantly messing with the manual draft on your owb, yup....I think so. Set it once and leave it alone. Same with the aqua stat...leave it alone. Do I think your on a mission to outlaw owb's.... an activist even,again yes, just my opinion, and I am entitled to that untill I see behavior that changes that . The fact that your very 1st post here is what it is, then a long explanation, just reinforces this. There are many here with owb's that use them properly, don't constantly screw with settings, burn good clean wood that smokes only as much or less than a regular wood stove....and are very happy with them.


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## ray benson (Mar 7, 2007)

Bob,
Hope you will post the outcome.


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## Husky137 (Mar 7, 2007)

I adjusted my OWB tonight because its gonna be real cold, I put more wood in it, the aquastat controls the rest.:biggrinbounce2: 

Badger Bob must burn a sh!tload of wood.


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## windthrown (Mar 7, 2007)

*Sorry there Badger Bobby...*

Sorry about the OWB conspiracy theorists there on AS, BadgerBob. OWBs are a touchy subject on AS and over on the Mother Earth News forum. Many blog wars on indoor vs outdoor wood burning, as well as EPA insanity, bans on OWBs, and lots of brand loyalty and design disputes. We debate about what is inside of a ping-pong ball with passion on this site. :yoyo:


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## bassman (Mar 7, 2007)

In all honesty your telling people to repost your first post is the same line alot of "nuts" use to get there word out whatever it may be.
Now from your second you have shown me that you are indeed a person going through some sort of hell with your heating system and like myself has turned to the net to find some answers.
I love and hate my boiler and it has done things to me that i cant even talk about .
they are what they are and they have there issues but keep in mind they have been around for years and it is not untill the lately with the gas and oil prices going up have they become more mainstream and with that you get new manufactures poping up and selling crap.
my boiler is built well but it is not foolproof as i have had a boilover and just last week i froze up part of my system solid and had to remove the exchanger and thaw it out and then heat up the lines to remove 3 feet of ice tubes and torch a taco pump to get it pumping .
this is boiler life get used to it.
your problem could have been avoided if i installed it cause i would have put in a few different ways of blowing off pressure .
but bla bla bla i think you could get 20 people telling you what they would do .
bottom line is if there is a damper that always lets air into the firebox even when the temp is up that is just wrong .
what does that help??
keep us posted 

oh and welcome to the forum

shayne


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## ktm rider (Mar 8, 2007)

I am also skeptical about this whole post and here is why.
Now I'm no engineer, far from it, But i highly doubt that Underwriters Labratories ( UL listed) is going to certify a PRESSURIZED system That works with a MANUAL DRAFT with no way to regulate that manual draft for safety. unpressurized?? maybe but still highly unlikely. 

There is absolutely no way I could ever sleep well at night knowing my $8,000 investment and possibly the lives of my family depend every night on my skills in meteorology...


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## sperho (Mar 8, 2007)

What a nightmare. I'm wondering if the UL listing was for the electrical portions only and not the pressure vessel. I hope you get some answers and fair resolution to this situation.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 8, 2007)

*Carbon Coalition*

We have a town meeting coming up in my town, and a useless warrant article being voted on stating that our town will do all it can to reduce carbon emissions. This was all brought about by a group called the Carbon Coalition. Harmless enough for now, it only cost the ink that it is printed with, but the way I look at it, it is just the first step. Kind of like when you go to the dentist and they put that numbing bannana tasting substance on your gum, just before they shove that needle in . If you have one of these warrant articles in your town to be voted on, make sure you show up and voice your opinion. Do not the these carbon nazis take away more of our freedoms. The earth maybe heating up, but there is more evidence to suggest that it is caused by the sun, rather than man. The earth has heated up before, this is not the first time. I would suggest before opening your mouth at an open forum that you spend some time getting the facts on global warming. This is an emotional driven subject, not based on much fact. Do not lets these tree hugging socialists snooker you and get into your wallet. This probably should have had its own thread, but I digress.

puck

FYI here is a good article on artic ice http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=b228f4b0-a869-4f85-ba08-902b95c45dcf&k=0


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## charkan (Mar 8, 2007)

I own a royall 6300 and yes the manual draft sucks.My system currently has a heat dump which basicly is an aquastat wired up to furnace fan that kicks it on when the water temp hits 195.The dealer I bought mine from offers a kit with an automatic air shutter but its about $200.I have run my boiler all winter no real problems.I'm using Logstor under the ground and 1" copper in the house.Will be be installing automatic air shutter before next winter though.


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## geofore (Mar 8, 2007)

*low temp(fusible)alloys*

www.alchemycastings.com This is a place to order the metal I am talking about for soft plugs. At 255F, your pressure is just under 18 pounds per square inch.


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## BadgerBob (Mar 8, 2007)

*Help at last*

Thanks to Charkan I know a fix is out there for the manual draft. How about a phone number or website for the "air shutter." Also, I would like to actually work with the manufacturer to install a small electric motor with a control arm fixed to the draft plate. When the draft motor turns on, the plate would fully open. When it shuts off, the plate would 'nearly' close. I can't imagine that costing $200.

The boiler inspector hasn't gotten back to me yet; I hope he'll take a look and make recommendations. In the mean time, I'm going to call a Conbraco engineer to see if one of their low pressure steam relief valves is suitable. The temperature of 5 psi steam is 222 F but I don't know whether the valve requires steam to activate it or if hot water will do it too. Is a 222 F blow-off safe for the pex? Not by specifications but the Rehau engineer did say they tested at 240 for months with no problems. 

Sphero mentioned the U.L. thing again: Let's say you made a boiler and you want a U.L. label on it. Okay, let's say you go whole-hog and send an entire unit to them (you wouldn't have to do that) and ask them to test the electrical system (wiring, switches, aquastat, etc.) and pressure test the door assembly. U.L will test the specified items and slap a label on it if they pass their standards. Does that mean you have a safe boiler? Of course not! It means it passed the tests you (their client) asked them to perform. 

The Royall boiler passed other tests, too, such as ASME. "The American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code is internationally recognized as the core body of knowledge for the latest rules of safety for design, production, maintenance, and inspection of boilers and pressure vessels." I understand their main theme has to do with welding but I know their is more to it -- I just don't have the big bucks to purchase their code books.

Royall also states their boilers are inspected by the, "Hartford Boiler Inspection & Insurance Company. The boilers are also inspected on-site by the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors and are continually checked by our quality control team." Well, I'd like to know what these agencies are thinking when they certify a boiler with a manually operated draft. After all, they should not have the burden of ignorance I had when I purchased the unit. "Oh, I can deal with that," I thought. 

On another subject, the product loyalty people add humor to this experience. They want everyone to know how smart they were to purchase this or that and how really dumb you were for not doing the same as they. Is that funny? Well, humility is a trait learned when you finally develop the courage to admit your errors -- consistantly -- and it usually takes many missteps to get to that point. It's funny because I remember how hard it was for me to begin swallowing my pride.

And those who think I'm a secret agent. Wow, they must have a hard time falling asleep without a Glock under their pillow. All I wanted was a forum to get the word out about a potential disaster for closed system OWB owners with supply pex running into the house. Why? I was a firefighter for 33 years, and, as the saying goes, once a firefighter always a firefighter. My entire adult life has been about saving lives and property, so, if I could prevent injury, death or damage by writing a letter and suggesting it be forwarded to affected parties, I was just doing my job.


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## ktm rider (Mar 8, 2007)

If i offended, I apologize. There are just A TON of OWB haters out there that post things like your first post. I am not an OWB fan, Had one and hated it. I now have an indoor boiler in my garage. But, I just hate when these coalitions, activists, whatever you want to call them try and tell someone else what they should do. To each his own. 

If I were in your shoes and if selling the OWB and getting a safer one is out of the question, I would SERIOUSLY look into a heat dump and an automatic combustion blower. ( that seals off the air when the water temp is satisfied)
That system setup that you described sounds like a time bomb for sure.


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## windthrown (Mar 8, 2007)

*OWB forum stuff*

BB: 

Good to know that you were (or still are) a firefighter. I always wanted to be one when I grew up. Still do, really. I burn 50+ slash piles here a year. Mainly post-clear-cut cleanup and the like, for fire prevention (by law you have to burn slash here). 

Anyway, as for OWBs, I think that the majority of people here are not big fans of closed/pressure system boilers. Mainly becasue they are prone to explode under pressure, or as in your case, other problems like PEX giving out that would not fail with an open (non-pressure) boiler system. Pressure systems have some advantages though, like less cavitation in the pumps so they last longer. I was advised not to get a pressurized system by several plumber friends of mine. So I avoided them. 

As for boiler brand loyalty, well, that is like chainsaws. You can see over on the chainsaw forum that we debate, complain, yell scream and holler about what type of chainsaws we like and use, and why. I happen to like Stihl saws myself. I also happen to love our Central Boiler unit becasue it works as expected, their support is good, it has had some very minor issues that they fixed under warantee, and overall (and best of all) the dang thing works. I designed the system to retro-fit the existing house hydronic floor system and solar water heating system. I also installed it completely myself, and lo, when I built a fire in it, and closed the door... the heat came on in less than an hour. So yes, I am proud of the fact that we selected a good one, and I designed and installed it, and most of all, that it works! 

Again, sorry that your boiler failed in such a dramatic way. Sorry too that some people here are paranoid. That is the way it is on an open discussion forum I guess. We have had some real flame wars over boilers and wood stoves here in the past. Same over on M.E.N. We scream, vent, complain, compare, joke, and share experiences. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.


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## stonykill (Mar 8, 2007)

your 1st post here asked everyone to spread this info around the internet, without any real proof that it actually happened. No pictures, which you hopefully took if you are indeed going forward with legal proceedings, only your word. Further, when I quoted your original post, it showed as 2 separate quotes, telling me you copied and pasted the main text, then added at the beginning, to paraphrase, spread this around, take my word for it, it happened.This makes me think you spread this around on several sites on the net.Also you state you fired the boiler for the night. You fire the boiler for the season, not the night. At night you just put wood on it. All of the above are situations to make me not to believe it.

Your 2nd post, you stated you were an outdoor wood boiler nut, with firewood everywhere. If you are, you are simply feeding the owb activists just what they want. They want net info like this to feed their mission. Anyone can post anything on the net, true or not. If you do love your outdoor boiler, or if not yours, a better one, you already did damage that is by now all over the internet.

Hopefully something was learned from this, do your homework throughly, before making a purchase like this, and 2nd, don't screw with it once its running. I still say all the admitted messing with the aqua stat, and constantly monitoring the weather to adjust your damper hurts your legal case immensely. The manufacturer can accuse you of other wrong doings, and you will have a hard time proving them wrong after you spread this stuff on the net. As a matter of fact if your lawyer knows you did this, if he thinks its a bad idea to spread rumors on the net, he should be replaced. 

Good luck with your boiler....and don't mess with it anymore. Get it fixed or replaced, and only put wood in it, don't mess with the damper and aqua stat.


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## ktm rider (Mar 8, 2007)

My indoor boiler is pressureized, but I only run about 12 psi. The pressure relief valve is set at 20 psi. I never had any saftey issues at all with this system. I did have it overheat once ( which was my fault) The water was at 240deg and the pressure still didn't go over the 20 psi limit. 
I like the pressureized systems for a couple of reasons. One is less corrosion. second, I don't have to continually "top off" the water like I did with my OWB that was an open system. and like you said your pumps last longer with less cavitation.

This, once again falls under what I said in my above post. " To each his own" what works for one, might not work for another. All that really matters is that we are all getting really cheap heat into our houses and sticking it to the greedy oil companies.


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## stonykill (Mar 8, 2007)

ktm rider said:


> I don't have to continually "top off" the water like I did with my OWB that was an open system. and like you said your pumps last longer with less cavitation.
> 
> This, once again falls under what I said in my above post. " To each his own" what works for one, might not work for another. All that really matters is that we are all getting really cheap heat into our houses and sticking it to the greedy oil companies.



It must be a difference from manufacturer to manufacturer, as my open system only required a topping off after 4 months of use. I check it everyday, and the water level is always good. Once again, it makes me glad I looked at every boiler I could before I bought mine. Research is very important. I've been sticking it to the oil companys since 91, 100% wood heat, no back up oil or electric heat. :rockn:


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## jhellwig (Mar 8, 2007)

geofore said:


> There should be a spot (female pipe fitting) to place a pipe reducer in the top of your boiler. Pour the reducer full of the metal, you can melt it on the kitchen stove. Let it cool and then screw it into the top of the boiler. Then when the temp hits 255F it melts and you'll be able to hear the steam whistling out of the top of the boiler and not the pex blowing the line out in the house. It'll work even if the pressure relief valve fails or you don't get to 30 lbs. of pressure. If water in the top of the boiler gets to 255F, it melts, the steam is released. It doesn't wait for the pressure to build, it just goes to a liquid state at 255F.




Any soft plugs in any boilers I have seen are inside the fire box so that when they melt they extinguish the fire in the processe. Steam engines from the 1900's have them in there fireboxes so it isn't something that is new or uncommon. 

If it was used when he bought it I could very well see it being removed and a plug put in its place.


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## ktm rider (Mar 8, 2007)

stonykill said:


> It must be a difference from manufacturer to manufacturer, as my open system only required a topping off after 4 months of use.



Must be. 

I had a Pacific Western. it was and still is I guess, a very well made unit. I had to top it off every week or two. I could always see a little bit of steam coming out of the overflow tube which is right by the stack on a PW. That little bit of steam adds up after a few weeks.


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## charkan (Mar 8, 2007)

*Air Shutter*

The air shutter my dealer sells comes on an aquatherm boiler which he also is a dealer for.I'm with you $200 is ridiculous.I'm a toolmaker by trade so I"ll make one myself.Will probably use a solenoid rather than an electric motor.If you built it right you can use gravity to shut it when power is turned off.That way its failsafe in case of power failure.


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## Husky137 (Mar 8, 2007)

Never had to top off my Central OWB. Check the water level every day.

I'm astonished that any manufacturer would sell something like this with a manual damper, especially a pressurized system.


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## ericjeeper (Mar 8, 2007)

*a little trick for evaporation*

To reduce water from evaporating out of an open system pour a gallon of veggie type oil into the boiler. It will cover the top of the water and seal the water in.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 8, 2007)

Husky137 said:


> Never had to top off my Central OWB. Check the water level every day.
> 
> I'm astonished that any manufacturer would sell something like this with a manual damper, especially a pressurized system.



I fired up my wood master in october ,and still have not had to add any water.


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## ktm rider (Mar 8, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> A system I've seen for limiting preasure in a wood boiler system is to have an expansion tank in the attic and have it vented so overflow runs out to a roof gutter. To top up the system water can be added until overflow is seen dripping in the gutter. As the boiler heats and cools any excess water from expansion will overflow and be caught by the gutter.
> 
> The pressure in the system will be determined by the height of the overflow pipe and builds at .45 pounds per foot of height. This is a good way to get small amounts of pressure and at the same time handle all of the output from boil overs.
> .



WOW!! Sounds like a ton of trouble. Why not just get one of these????


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## 046 (Mar 9, 2007)

absolutely cannot believe there was not a safety built into system. 
if the mfg left one off, the installer should have caught it. 

it's common for large HVAC suppliers to stock fuseable plugs rated at different temps. generally they use 1/4in NPT fitting with a blob of solder that melts at rated temperature.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 9, 2007)

ktm rider said:


> WOW!! Sounds like a ton of trouble. Why not just get one of these????



looks like just another closed system that could turn into a grenade.


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## ktm rider (Mar 9, 2007)

hockeypuck said:


> looks like just another closed system that could turn into a grenade.



I couldn't find a pic of the larger 90# expansion tanks ( didn't really look hard though) I have 2 - 90# expansion tanks on my pressureized boiler. Never had a problem and I even over fired it once to about 250 degrees, which was my fault, not the boilers. If you have a pressure relief valve how do you figure a pressureized system with an expansion tank is also a grenade?


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 9, 2007)

First off it appears that I owe badgerbob an apology, sorry that I jumped the gun Bob. 

In my defense realize that OWBs are a favorite cyber "redheaded step child" at this time and I wish that those who don't like them would just tout their favorite way to burn wood instead of bashing OWBs in an attempt to make their decisions look better.

Off of that. You have purchased a dud system Bob no doubt about it, make them fix it or change it to non pressure. I cannot vouch for things like the effects on corrosion or pumps but I can vouch that a non pressure system does not need lots of make up water. I have added less than 5 gallons of water to my system since September, probably closer to 2-3 gallons. I cant say exactly because I top it off with a fill valve plumbed into he loop and located in my basement. By the time I crack the valve and walk 15 steps to a window where I can see the over flow it is overflowing. My system cuts off at 170 and on at 160 and works wonderfully without the dangers associated with pressure boilers.

Now I am going to add some science here because I have been reading some things that as I understand them defy a basic scientific fact. That fact being you cannot have a system temp over "X" at "X" system pressure. When the water boils, the temp quits rising, period. But raise the system pressures and the boiling temp will raise accordingly. As an example my atmospheric system will not go over 212 (or whatever exact boiling temp is at my altitude), it will boil more vigorously if I keep adding heat but will not go above 212 as long as there is water in it. Non-belivers can check this out for themselves with a pan of water and moms stove and cooking thermometer as I had to do when I didn't belive it.


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 9, 2007)

I think that question was on 'Are you smarter than a fifth grader' 

Gee now I am realy sad Treeco,,,,, 

wad ya have to go an say that for 

LOL


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## stonykill (Mar 9, 2007)

*google search*

if you google search " outlaw outdoor wood boilers" this thread is the 2nd link you find. Badger bob may have a legitimate problem, however he is going about this all wrong. DON'T FEED THE ANTI'S. Thats my 2 cents. Off my soapbox.


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## jhellwig (Mar 9, 2007)

That is just cause someone put the words "outlaw wood boilers" in their post. With the amount of traffic to this site google spiders logged it very quickly. If anything you should blame the first person to jump on badger bob about seemingly being anti owb. That is just how the internet works. This site and any combination of words, good or bad, equals top of google search.


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## stonykill (Mar 9, 2007)

jhellwig said:


> That is just cause someone put the words "outlaw wood boilers" in their post. With the amount of traffic to this site google spiders logged it very quickly. If anything you should blame the first person to jump on badger bob about seemingly being anti owb. That is just how the internet works. This site and any combination of words, good or bad, equals top of google search.



only the bad gets passed around and remembered, thats the problem. And yes thats how the internet works, which is why posting something such as his original post, and asking to pass it around without proof is bad. Remember the phrase...every action...? There are too many anti every things out there , and feeding them info like the original post and asking to pass it around, is a bad idea. It doesn't matter if the intent was malicious or not. Those who hate and want to outlaw the boilers will use this against us. 

The mainstream news media has even been known to use info off of websites in their newscasts. You really need to watch what you put out there...thats all I'm saying. Think before you type.


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## geofore (Mar 9, 2007)

*DIY's*

Things I have seen used on small closed system boilers that worked were thermostats for cars. They come in alot of temp ranges and pressure ranges. You can get 165F, 195F and 225F in 3lbs, 7lbs and 16lbs ranges. You place them on the boilers and they work. I am not saying it meets code but it does work. I am a firm believer in the fusible metal soft plugs because when all else fails the soft plugs work. Think of it as a backup plan. 

To those that think the soft plugs must be on the inside of the boilers, The blowoff pipe can be plumbed into the firebox to extinguish the fire as a safety with the soft plug in the plumbing of the blowby tube. Redundantcy is is good if one system fails to operate the next one takes over. So even if you have a pressure relief valve or thermostat fail, the soft plug is a good idea as a backup to avoid catastropic failure. 

You need things that work when the power goes out in an ice or snow storm. Softplugs, thermostats and pressure relief valves are supposed to work when the power is out. If your pump stops when the power is out does the boiler shut down? When the power goes out the damper should close on it's own. 

I've got to go, this freeze thaw cycle just burst the neighbor's above ground pool and an 11,000 gallon icebergh went sliding through my back yard.


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## ericjeeper (Mar 9, 2007)

geofore said:


> I've got to go, this freeze thaw cycle just burst the neighbor's above ground pool and an 11,000 gallon icebergh went sliding through my back yard.



This I would love to see photos of. Please that is too funny


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## charkan (Mar 9, 2007)

I agree pictures would be good.


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## geofore (Mar 9, 2007)

*poolside*

Holy #*!#$%, It looks like someone threw a gernade in the pool. One side opened up and the whole thing exploded out like an areosol can in a firepit. I'll try to get pics tomorrow. 4' x 24' pool, no one hurt but the pool is shot. Pieces of the liner and lawn chairs are couple hundred feet down the hill. Washed the grass out of the lawn, down the hill, across the road behind us and over the next hill and into the creek. Oak trees caught the big ice chunks. Kiss that pool GONE!


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## Husky137 (Mar 10, 2007)

Time to get an attorney and sue the installer and the manufacturer and maybe the guy who thought swimming pools were a good idea. Orrr maybe just buy some penguins for the berg.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Husky137 (Mar 10, 2007)

Plus I would contact the state swimming pool inspector and the state iceberg inspector. 


I hope the homeowner wasn't lowering and raising the water level every day to account for the meterological changes.:deadhorse:


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## TooTall999 (Mar 10, 2007)

BAN ABOVE GROUND POOLS 

Let's see how this one googles


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## ktm rider (Mar 10, 2007)

TreeCo said:


> The fact that you got your system to 250 degrees shows that your system is not failsafe. You may have damaged your boiler.
> 
> Really a small tank with no bladder and an overflow pipe at height is much simpler, cheaper and failsafe than expensive bladder tanks and a pressure relief valve.
> .



I never claimed my sytem was fail safe. I just said safe. The reason it went so hot was that I forgot to close the ash door one nigtht so the boiler had no way to regulate the air intake. 
As far as my system being more expensive. I boight the boiler, pex pipe, 40ft. of 1" copper with fittings, Expansion tank with air purge, etc.. etc.. for about $5,800. I haven't price them in a while but I think OWB are more than that for just the boiler alone. My perssure relif valvew came with the boiler and it is set at 20 PSI. 

I do have a question for you Treeco and please understand that I am in no way disputing your 212 deg water claim, I just don't see how this happened to me.
When I had my OWB I had the circulating pump take a crap on me one night and the house was freezing. SO, I went out and checked the fire. It had the temp guage to 275 deg. !!!! The water was not coming into the house ( the pipes froze since the circ pump had quit) How could this have happend ?? based on the 212 deg water theory???


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## stonykill (Mar 10, 2007)

*Ban Above Ground Pools*

(Note: Feel free to copy and circulate this message. You'll see why.) 

This freeze thaw cycle just burst the neighbor's above ground pool and an 11,000 gallon icebergh went sliding through my back yard. It looks like someone threw a gernade in the pool. One side opened up and the whole thing exploded out like an areosol can in a firepit. 4' x 24' pool, no one hurt but the pool is shot. Pieces of the liner and lawn chairs are couple hundred feet down the hill. Washed the grass out of the lawn, down the hill, across the road behind us and over the next hill and into the creek. Oak trees caught the big ice chunks. Kiss that pool GONE!

Appraised of the facts as I knew them, I contacted the installer who came to the site within 8 hours – he scratched his head in disbelief.

I’ve heard nothing more from the installer and manufacturer. I believe justice indicates they should make things right, so, if they make light of this experience, I’ll be forced to litigate.




ahhh, the beauty of copy and paste, and selective deletion. Fun, fun fun:jester:


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## bassman (Mar 10, 2007)

stonykill said:


> (Note: Feel free to copy and circulate this message. You'll see why.)
> 
> This freeze thaw cycle just burst the neighbor's above ground pool and an 11,000 gallon icebergh went sliding through my back yard. It looks like someone threw a gernade in the pool. One side opened up and the whole thing exploded out like an areosol can in a firepit. 4' x 24' pool, no one hurt but the pool is shot. Pieces of the liner and lawn chairs are couple hundred feet down the hill. Washed the grass out of the lawn, down the hill, across the road behind us and over the next hill and into the creek. Oak trees caught the big ice chunks. Kiss that pool GONE!
> 
> ...




A+

:rockn:


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## BadgerBob (Mar 10, 2007)

*Latest News*

The latest news is that there isn't much to say.

It's tough finding an attorney willing and/or able to pursue an HVAC event such as mine. For now, I've stopped looking and I'm trying a different course which is to involve Wisconsin's chief boiler inspector. The following is part of a letter I sent.
_____

I'm writing because your name appeared as a National Board of pressure vessel inspectors for Wisconsin and you are the chief state inpector. I have questions about a manufacturer's product. 

Royall Manufacturing, Inc., 301 2nd Street, Elroy, Wisconsin 53929, states the following about the boilers they produce: "The boilers are also inspected on-site by the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors."

This statement refers to their outdoor wood-fired boilers which leads me to the following questions:

Is their product inspected on-site?
What code(s) are applicable?
Since their product is wood-fired, the aquastat cannot shut off the fuel supply when the water reaches its upper set point as it would in gas/oil fired units. Instead, the aquastat turns off a draft blower while it is UNABLE to control a manually set draft opening. This circumstance appears to be an uncontrolled Btu input which is contrary to the design of the installed Conbraco 10-407, 30psi pressure type relief valve. Also, the relief valve is installed horizontally, contrary to the mandatory vertical installation. Are these discrepancies or are they outside the code?
Is a manually operated draft for wood-fired boilers within the code? And, if this circumstance is not specified by code, should it be to prevent injury and death?

I'll see what he has to say and then proceed -- which way, I don't know, but this heating season is almost over so there is time enough to not be hasty. Perhaps they might add a few lines to the code for OWB safety. I don't want them to go after the smoke thing, though. I Hope I don't open a can of worms but I don't think they're too worried since the last record I can find of OWBs in the state's records is from 2004 and that was a suggestion to invite an industry spokesperson to one of the meetings. I wonder who that was?


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## MS-310 (Mar 12, 2007)

The problem is that it is an PSI unit. most people are not cert. to install or work on one.


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## stonykill (Mar 12, 2007)

MS-310 said:


> The problem is that it is an PSI unit. most people are not cert. to install or work on one.




the other problem is the homeowner playing engineer constantly changing settings on the aqua stat and the damper every time the wind direction and temperature changes. I still have a hard time believing the post, simply from the standpoint that he stated he fired the boiler at 10 pm. You don't fire a boiler at night, you fire it at the beginning of the heating season.


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## ghitch75 (Mar 12, 2007)

he means loading it for the night..as far as "firing"...i think?


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## stonykill (Mar 12, 2007)

ghitch75 said:


> he means loading it for the night..as far as "firing"...i think?



I've brought this up several times, he fails to answer it


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## sawsong (Mar 12, 2007)

stonykill said:


> I've brought this up several times, he fails to answer it



back the truck up!, he replied the first time you brought it up. on page 2



BadgerBob said:


> And to the gentle person who took exception to my wording, "fired for the night," in these parts it means to put enough wood in the firebox to last until morning.



lets not be getting up on our high horses or anything :deadhorse:


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## stonykill (Mar 12, 2007)

sawsong said:


> back the truck up!, he replied the first time you brought it up. on page 2
> 
> 
> 
> lets not be getting up on our high horses or anything :deadhorse:



my mistake I'm only human. I still don't believe him. He came here stating facts, with out photos to back it up. He didn't ask for help as far as I saw, simply stated to paraphrase, my boiler blew up, I'm suing. AS was nice enough to offer help. I just don't buy it, thats all.


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## geofore (Mar 12, 2007)

*history of the soft plug*

www.steamtraction.com/archive/5424/


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## BadgerBob (Mar 12, 2007)

Especially for mr. doubting Stonykill's whining benefit, I uploaded the photos to this address: 

randerson450.photosite.com

Furthermore, Mr. Stonykill, if you can't believe I fiddled with the aquastat and the controls, then you didn't read the explanation for why I did it. Maybe I didn't explain the bottom line that most have figured out: When it was very cold, I turned the aquastat up to 190 (well within safety) to heat my house. When it got warmer, I turned it back to 180 because that's all I needed. I've fiddled with the draft opening (that has a wingnut -- think about that) so the fire would burn without making too much creosote while still not overfiring. 

You've speed-read my posts and formed judgments with limited comprehension, finding fault with me while not considering I was duped by a manufacturer who made light of his responsibilities. Can I be so bold to ask, "Did you wake up one day knowing how to make furniture or did it take a little time? And when you learned to do something right, did you take it upon yourself to berate all those who didn't do it your way? When your wife and children don't live up to your expectations, do you reveal your disappointment with them? Do you allow others to learn by their mistakes without adding insult?

Just some off-topic rhetoric.


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## outona limb (Mar 13, 2007)

BUY A TIMBERWOLF owb, I have had mine for 4 years now with no problems. they are a open system with a natural draft damper which is controled by a aquastat. Just load up the wood and walk away for 12-18 hours then repeat also there stoves are UL listed and backed up by a awsome warrenty where any problems are corrected quickly... just had to through in my 2 cents


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## stonykill (Mar 13, 2007)

BadgerBob said:


> Especially for mr. doubting Stonykill's whining benefit, I uploaded the photos to this address:
> 
> randerson450.photosite.com
> 
> ...



its called an opinion. I haven't checked websters, but I define an opinion as a conclusion one comes to based on the facts as they are presented to him or her. Now maybe websters defines opinion as take everything that you read on the internet as fact without question, someone took the time to type it so it must be true.

Last I checked we still had the right to an opinion. Maybe that right was taken away and I missed the memo. Its possible as I have been building my portable weather station 10 feet from my owb, so I can better monitor the conditions. I have to keep in mind that the weather at the boiler may be different 10 feet away, so I will make adjustments based of best guesses.


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## stonykill (Mar 13, 2007)

As for the furniture...I was basically raised by my grandfather, who was a cabinet maker...just one of his many talents. So I have been around furniture building my whole life. 

As for my learning curve on my owb. Sure there was a learning curve. What wood burned the longest, what wood to use if I fell funny and nearly burned out, how to get it going fast. When I could use pine, that a local firewood guy brings me by the truckload for free, or when it was best to just use dry hardwood. My learning curve did not include a course in meteorology to adjust my stove. I'm not a weather guesser, and don't need to be to run my owb efficiently.


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## Husky137 (Mar 13, 2007)

Poor Stonykill, my lad, I fear you give BB too much credit. I don't think he has a hidden agenda, I don't think he is a liar, clueless and out of his depth, now that is a different story.


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## stonykill (Mar 13, 2007)

Husky137 said:


> Poor Stonykill, my lad, I fear you give BB too much credit. I don't think he has a hidden agenda, I don't think he is a liar, clueless and out of his depth, now that is a different story.


I'll agree with that


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## MS-310 (Mar 13, 2007)

outona limb said:


> BUY A TIMBERWOLF owb, I have had mine for 4 years now with no problems. they are a open system with a natural draft damper which is controled by a aquastat. Just load up the wood and walk away for 12-18 hours then repeat also there stoves are UL listed and backed up by a awsome warrenty where any problems are corrected quickly... just had to through in my 2 cents




Yes I do agree......


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## bassman (Mar 13, 2007)

looking at those pics ... that is an odd setup with the blower .
my blower has a fan and a solanoid that cuts airflow with no leakes.
I dont know how it never boiled over the first time you lit it up.
do you have a nuber for your sales guy cause i would like to hear what he says .


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## 046 (Mar 13, 2007)

here's a pic of two fusible plugs... one that's done it's duty and a new one.


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## stonykill (Mar 14, 2007)

bassman said:


> looking at those pics ... that is an odd setup with the blower .
> my blower has a fan and a solanoid that cuts airflow with no leakes.
> I dont know how it never boiled over the first time you lit it up.
> do you have a nuber for your sales guy cause i would like to hear what he says .




I look at the blower set up and think 1960's chevy blower motor. I can't believe someone would look at this set up and even think it was a good idea. I looked at a lot of boilers before I bought mine, and this blower set up is the cheesiest I have seen. Your right, it should have overheated right away. Furthermore the installer should have looked at this and realized the danger. Also any one who looked at it never should have purchased it.


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## stonykill (Mar 14, 2007)

I really think you are over thinking the operation of your boiler. You say and I quote..."When it was very cold, I turned the aqua-stat up to 190 (well within safety) to heat my house. When it got warmer, I turned it back to 180 because that's all I needed. I've fiddled with the draft opening" 

I have this hi tech device installed in my home that you may have heard of. Its called a thermostat. When its cold out, I turn it up. When its warmer out I turn it down. Its a marvel of modern science really. An amazing device. I turn it up, and it tells the stove to kick on the blower...build a bigger fire. Then when the house is warm it tells the blower on the door of the stove to shut off and have the fire go dormant. Like I said its an amazing hi tech device.


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## Husky137 (Mar 14, 2007)

Mine doesn't even use a blower, just natural draft. A blower was an option but the dealer (who runs an OWB) and the plumber who intalled my unit(and runs an OWB) said all the forced draft would do in the long run is burn more wood.


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## BadgerBob (Mar 14, 2007)

*Ignorance Ain't Bliss*

I'll admit I should have learned much more about boilers before I trusted my "licensed" installer and the manufacturer but I'm learning a lot now.
Why did this happen? I've read many opinions -- including those speaking of my ignorance -- which may be correct, but I'd prefer to believe my situation was supposed to happen so that good can come of it. Providence works that way.

Wisconsin's chief boiler inspector wants me to appear at the next state meeting to describe the situation, propose code safety changes and make recommendations to address the closed system boiler/pex problem. Before that, I will graciously invite the manufacturer to join in the solution rather than having the solution imposed upon them. Will the manufacturer be interested? Their certification expires on 11/08; if it is not renewed, they must stop making boilers. So, if they do not incorporate an automatically controlled draft by then, their days of boilermaking are numbered.

As part of the solution, I invited the relief valve manufacturer to develop a temperature/pressure solution that works with OWBs. Presently, they do not have a T&P valve with a desired max temperature of 200 degrees F.

This is all a big pain but, in the end, if my inconvenience saves lives, it is all worth it and perhaps my ignorance of boilers was by design.


And the fusible plug? It's worthy of consideration as an additional relief device; perhaps the final defense after draft control and T&P valves. It's something pure without moving parts -- maybe a 210 degree plug would be good.


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## 046 (Mar 15, 2007)

still are amazed mfg of boiler didn't include a fusible plug somewhere in boiler jacket. this would used as a safety of last resort. 

cost of adding would be under $15 for mfg. fusible plug shown above was $6 from HVAC supply. 

needless to say if fusible link and/or other pressure let off valve had been in place. your accident in all probability would not happened. 



BadgerBob said:


> I'll admit I should have learned much more about boilers before I trusted my "licensed" installer and the manufacturer but I'm learning a lot now.
> Why did this happen? I've read many opinions -- including those speaking of my ignorance -- which may be correct, but I'd prefer to believe my situation was supposed to happen so that good can come of it. Providence works that way.
> 
> Wisconsin's chief boiler inspector wants me to appear at the next state meeting to describe the situation, propose code safety changes and make recommendations to address the closed system boiler/pex problem. Before that, I will graciously invite the manufacturer to join in the solution rather than having the solution imposed upon them. Will the manufacturer be interested? Their certification expires on 11/08; if it is not renewed, they must stop making boilers. So, if they do not incorporate an automatically controlled draft by then, their days of boilermaking are numbered.
> ...


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## ktm250rider (Mar 23, 2007)

When I designed printed circuit board connectors, I had to send a complete, fully assembled sample to UL for certification. In addition, I didnt tell UL what to test for. They had a set of parameters that all connectors of a certain current and voltage had to meet. We designed to these parameters.

UL must test the complete assembly. An assembly can consist of non UL rated parts and still pass all the UL tests and have a UL rating. However, just because all parts of an assembly are UL rated does not mean that the assembly is UL rated.


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## stonykill (Mar 23, 2007)

I have to ask...what kind of heating system did badgerbob have before a owb? If it was an oil fired furnace did he constantly adjust the aquastat depending on temperature? If it was electric heat did he hot rod the wiring when it was cold out? I suspect not. All the safety regulations and government safety ratings can't stop those who don't know what they are doing from doing what they do. This goes for the installer as well as the owb owner. 

I was in a local hardware store the other day to buy some #20 hose clamps. The store also sells and installs owb's. He was out of #20 clamps. The owner told me he was out because he just did 2 owb installs and used all the hose clamps on the pex tubing! OMG!!! He gets $5000 to install a system and used standard hose clamps on an outdoor wood boiler. Turns out another guy who installs these in the area does the same thing, then wonders why he constantly has problems. 

Makes me glad I installed my own, and didn't buy it from these yahoos


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## 046 (Mar 23, 2007)

assuming these are the standard stainless steel hose clamps you see at all auto parts stores. 

what's wrong with using those on a system that will be similar in pressures to a car radiator system. 

heck, I've seen std hose clamps hold down AC hoses that's holding 100+ PSI. 

now back to the real issue here... which is NO safeties were installed on this enclosed system. this is really strange that a mfg and installer would both miss this mission critical item(s)



stonykill said:


> I have to ask...what kind of heating system did badgerbob have before a owb? If it was an oil fired furnace did he constantly adjust the aquastat depending on temperature? If it was electric heat did he hot rod the wiring when it was cold out? I suspect not. All the safety regulations and government safety ratings can't stop those who don't know what they are doing from doing what they do. This goes for the installer as well as the owb owner.
> 
> I was in a local hardware store the other day to buy some #20 hose clamps. The store also sells and installs owb's. He was out of #20 clamps. The owner told me he was out because he just did 2 owb installs and used all the hose clamps on the pex tubing! OMG!!! He gets $5000 to install a system and used standard hose clamps on an outdoor wood boiler. Turns out another guy who installs these in the area does the same thing, then wonders why he constantly has problems.
> 
> Makes me glad I installed my own, and didn't buy it from these yahoos


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## stonykill (Mar 23, 2007)

046 said:


> assuming these are the standard stainless steel hose clamps you see at all auto parts stores.
> 
> what's wrong with using those on a system that will be similar in pressures to a car radiator system.
> 
> ...



yes, stainless hose clamps. In all fairness your hose clamp repairs aren't underground. I have a few friends who install radiant heat for a living. When I told them of hose clamps on pex tubing, they just couldn't believe it. Yes, I agree the installer and the manufacturer should have installed a safety. The fact seems to be that most, at least in my area, professional installers of OWB's don't know what to do, or what to look for, or for that matter what is code. Code in my area calls for pex tubing to have a permanent crimped connection.


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## 046 (Mar 23, 2007)

ok.... thanks for clarifying. 

I see stainless steel clamps used in underground applications all the time. local city utility workers use stainless steel clamps to fix 2 feet diameter water mains.

naturally industry specific clamps would be best.


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## millermountain (Apr 5, 2007)

*outdoor woodboiler disaster*

badgerbob, i installed a 6300 in september,the only problem i have had with it is that it sprung a leek at one of the welds inside the boiler. i called royall and they said get it fixed and send us the bill. well it took about 20 calls and three months to get my money.after reading about your problem i'm wondering about your dump zone.if the temp in my boiler reaches 200 my dump zone opens and stays open until the temp goes down to 185. this summer i am installing a backup dump zone in case the first one fails or my zone valve fails.


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