# Echo CS-590 Timber Wolf



## Herb (Nov 24, 2014)

Was just wondering everyone's opinion of the Echo CS-590...own a tree service and was wondering if the saw is worth my time


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## chainsawman2011 (Nov 24, 2014)

well I have only ran a couple 590s but they seem to run quite lean. the 2 I have worked on I had to richen the carb up because it was to lean out of the box. The biggest problem with all echo saws not just the 590 is the parts you cant buy many parts for them without going to the dealer there is not much for aftermarket at all like stihls and huskys. I like to stay a model series or two behind the crowd that way you are not paying so much for parts and there is plenty of good parts yet. stick to stihl or husky that's my opinion


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 24, 2014)

What exactly do you want to know about the saw? It's well made, easy to work on, a great value, and has plenty of power with a simple muffler mod. My 590 was tuned maybe a little rich out of the box.


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## Poleman (Nov 24, 2014)

I think it's an excellent performing saw for its cost and size. I'm sure I'll get FLAMED by others who are more into more expensive and less performing saws.

Yes they have a plastic handle which can be replaced by one from a 600. I've ported two of these and they really perform like a much larger saw. The first one ran a 28" bar and skip chain with no problem. The second saw is running a 24 with chisel chain and working everyday in a tree service and doing well. One of the favorites with the crew because of its light weight and power.

Never been a big Echo fan but this saw changed that. Very good piston and cylinder finish....very good!


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## Andyshine77 (Nov 24, 2014)

My CS-590 vs a Fully ported MS-361


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## jughead500 (Nov 24, 2014)

Yes worth your time.


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## jughead500 (Nov 24, 2014)

What are your usual saws now?


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## towingace (Nov 24, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> My CS-590 vs a Fully ported MS-361


I like it...wifey, not so much...she couldn't here Judge Judy.


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## cobey (Nov 24, 2014)

Herb said:


> Was just wondering everyone's opinion of the Echo CS-590...own a tree service and was wondering if the saw is worth my time


 I have an angry ported 590, pulls a 24"full comp hard, have ran a couple. stock pulls a 20" full comp, or a 24" skip pretty good also oils very well


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## cobey (Nov 24, 2014)

AWOL ported... BWT


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## fordf150 (Nov 24, 2014)

Are there better 60cc saws out there? Yes. Are there better 60cc saws out there for under $400? NO


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## awol (Nov 24, 2014)

fordf150 said:


> Are there better 60cc saws out there? Yes. Are there better 60cc saws out there for under $400? NO


 Eggzactly!


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## Herb (Nov 25, 2014)

Thanks for all the replys...we run mainly stihls....020Ts 036 044 056 we still even have our original 090.. (1968...or so) we have used johnsred, Poulan pros, dolmars, husky and we also have 2 68 cc echos was just curious of the durability and I live 30 min from echos hq....my stihl dealer happens to be an echo dealer also


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## jd548esco (Dec 3, 2014)

there are a couple of logging crews running them locally. it is the only farm and ranch saw i know of that anybody is testing out in a logging these days . they fell with machines mostly--but saws are still used --just not like they were back in the day. 

eaons ago we tried the husky "rancher" for a set saw-- they ran good for like two weeks then epic fail. they just plain couldn't take it--


so far the crew is still running the 590s and they have had them three months-- except for one that got crushed by accident. 

i suspect with a good carb tune and a real bar and chain --it is the best $399 saw out there. 


mine has the stock timber wolf bar and chain-- the chain is a turd-- the bar --kinda cheap -- no mods on mine except for the dealer tune on the carb . is seems stout even from running 372s and 440s -- somebody that has been running box store saws it is going to be a big step up. 

it is way stouter than my old 290 super -- and i like it a lot better. the big question is if it will hold up-- i suspect so-- but it has not been around long enough to be sure--

they have a really good retail warranty . i think they go a year or so on the commercial use-- generally if a saw holds up for a year logging-- its a good saw. 



the timber wolf is just a de-tuned 600p with a cheap bar and chain , a cheap sprocket, a plastic handlebar and a rpm limited coil. i think the carb has fixed jets--otherwise it is the same HDA as the 600p

the saw has "some" compatibility with the 620P -- i'll be looking into that later--


so it is sort of a trade off , they had to ax some of the pro stuff to keep the costs down -- if i was going to do 'pro" work i would pay the extra $200 and get the 620p 

for what i'm doing today-- mostly hacking storm damage firewood a 590 and a good chain looks more than enough. 


a thing to consider is the dealer-- cause your gonna want a carb tune up , mine was lean out of the box--- if you got a good dealer that knows how to set one up --then your going to town--


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## cedarshark (Dec 3, 2014)

Cut a couple cords with my 590 and 390 this week. I liked the 590 well enough to sell the 390 to the friend helping me cut wood. Took me 6 months to find a new 590 under $350 but I am glad I bought it...nice saw. The comment above about parts is correct....not nearly as available as Stihl and Husky. Older Echo parts are hard to find as well.


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## hiluxxulih (Dec 3, 2014)

Herb said:


> Was just wondering everyone's opinion of the Echo CS-590...own a tree service and was wondering if the saw is worth my time


I sure like my CS600P I have had a few years it only has about two hours on it though , dam C.A.D.


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## 7sleeper (Dec 3, 2014)

jd548esco said:


> .....
> the timber wolf is just a de-tuned 600p with a cheap bar and chain , a cheap sprocket, a plastic handlebar and a rpm limited coil. *i think the carb has fixed jets*--otherwise it is the same HDA as the 600p
> ....


Just a general comment. If it had fixed jets it would not be possible to adjust the carb! Fixed jets are usually only on small homeowner saws = Stihl 170/180, etc.

7


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## DeckSetter (Dec 3, 2014)

My 590 definitely doesn't have fixed jets.

Limited coil yes. I think the 600p also has a limited coil but the 620p is unlimited. Cab anyone confirm that?


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## Jameson (Dec 3, 2014)

I have a 590 with a July 2014 build date that has an adjustable carb (once the limiter cap & the plate around it are removed), no cat muffler.

If You have time I suggest messing with the muffler a bit on the 590. It is worthwhile even with stock bar. 

My use is for firewood and some light removal of fallen trees. I bought the 590 as I ran into a hundred feet of 22" oak that my 45cc saw was taking forever in. I was done in 2 hours when I got back to the site. The saw is a beast. Don't dare run that full chisel into the ground however, you will be filing the begeezus out of it! 

You are most certainly going to want to remove those caps and give it some gas, or at least the ability to do so because inevitably you will want to. I have been running 40-1 stihl conventional for the first ten or so tanks of break in - no real smoke to speak of and I have it running rich. I did a hefty muffler mod, gutting it basically, and it is very smooth - but loud.


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## cedarshark (Dec 3, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> Just a general comment. If it had fixed jets it would not be possible to adjust the carb! Fixed jets are usually only on small homeowner saws = Stihl 170/180, etc.
> 
> 7


Many saws, even some of Stihls pro series saws came from the factory with fixed high speed jets but adjustable low speed jets. I have both an 026 and 260 equiped that way.


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## jd548esco (Dec 3, 2014)

well fixed jet or no the HDA on the 590 has another PN from the HDA on the 600p when i asked about it there was some utterance of a fixed jet , even if it is fixed it can probably be drilled-- and there there is that much bigger HDA from the 620--so


i sort of suspect it is fixed on the 590 -- there has to be some reason it is listed with its own PN -- and there is some scuttlebutt about berryman eating the plastic in the 590s carb but not the 600p -- i have yet to tear down any of um and not likely to do so --for the next 5 years at least--


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## cedarshark (Dec 3, 2014)

My 590 does not have fixed jets but both the low and high have limit caps that need to be removed in order to effectively retune the saw after a muffler mod to increase air flow. My 590 was set lean from the factory(to my liking) and I fattened it up to the limiter stop. The saw only has about 4 hrs on it and I doubt I mm mine cuz I don't want the noise.

The 620 May have a HDA carb with different jets to accommodate the bigger cylinder size and needs a different part number. Begs the question if the 620 does have a bigger carb, will it fit the 590. I don't think its a good idea to spray berrymans(or any carb cleaner) in a carb that has the gaskets and seals in it. I think it dries the rubber and plastics.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2014)

The CS-590 does not have a fixed jet carb, and that is fact. It does have a bypass setup that prevents overly lean conditions. The carb will provide approximately 85% of required fuel, with the high speed needle fully seated. IMHO this is a step forward, unlike fixed jet carbs.


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## rmh3481 (Dec 4, 2014)

<<The CS-590 does not have a fixed jet carb, and that is fact>>

Open up the metering side and look at the high circuit nozzle check valve that is in the Walbro HDA-268 carb. .058mm is on every one Ive seen. The correct nomenclature from Walbro is 'Semi-fixed Jet'.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 4, 2014)

Herb said:


> Was just wondering everyone's opinion of the Echo CS-590...own a tree service and was wondering if the saw is worth my time



Out of the box they perform better than I expected. The odd 70 dl bar is probably the weakest link. With a decent bar and chain, and a simple muff mod, they run strong and smooth. For the price to performance ratio, its probably the best budget 60cc saw going. I'm anxious to see how they run when ported. 

Ok, it isn't all sunshine and roses with Echo. There is virtually no after market (yet). And they don't hold their value like a Stihl or even a Husky. So if you plan to sell it off in a year or two, forget it. If you plan to work it like a rented mule until it owes you nothing... I'd say go for it.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2014)

rmh3481 said:


> <<The CS-590 does not have a fixed jet carb, and that is fact>>
> 
> Open up the metering side and look at the high circuit nozzle check valve that is in the Walbro HDA-268 carb. .058mm is on every one Ive seen. The correct nomenclature from Walbro is 'Semi-fixed Jet'.



That's what I was referring to. A true fixed jet has no adjustment, the carb you're referring to can be turned like any other carb found the most part. Quite a few carbs have this feature, and it seems to work well enough.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2014)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Out of the box they perform better than I expected. The odd 70 dl bar is probably the weakest link. With a decent bar and chain, and a simple muff mod, they run strong and smooth. For the price to performance ratio, its probably the best budget 60cc saw going. I'm anxious to see how they run when ported.



I'll be porting my 590 as soon as I get a few other projects complete. I will likely start a build thread when I have the time.


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## jughead500 (Dec 4, 2014)

Please do if at all possible Andre'.


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## cedarshark (Dec 4, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> I'll be porting my 590 as soon as I get a few other projects complete. I will likely start a build thread when I have the time.



Andre. A major complaint from several people on AS(including me)is that the 590 comes from the factory set too lean but it appears that with the high speed bypass on the HDA carb, that this may not be the case. What is your take on this "too lean from the factory" deal ?


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## Chris-PA (Dec 4, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> Andre. A major complaint from several people on AS(including me)is that the 590 comes from the factory set too lean but it appears that with the high speed bypass on the HDA carb, that this may not be the case. What is your take on this "too lean from the factory" deal ?


I think the terminology is causing confusion. Probably best not to worry about the details of why it is different - the end result is that it is an adjustable carb and you just tune like any other. 

The advantage is that it will be easier to adjust and that there is a limit as to how lean it can be set - but likely it can still be set lean enough to burn it up, and rich enough to be a pig.


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## jd548esco (Dec 4, 2014)

mine adjusts on both sides-- as well-- i don't quite get what the dealer said about fixed jet- either-- must have been to semi-fixed deal he was mentioning, my hearing ain't so good so i might have missed the fixed part--

if it runs good i'm thinking why bother-- echo plays funny games with part numbers-- could be the very same carb as the 600p with just an "A" in the prefix-- for all i know


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> Andre. A major complaint from several people on AS(including me)is that the 590 comes from the factory set too lean but it appears that with the high speed bypass on the HDA carb, that this may not be the case. What is your take on this "too lean from the factory" deal ?



The low side seemed a bit lean, which can also be an indication the high speed is also lean, as both sides work in tandem. However the high speed circuit was set spot on. I'm around 800' feet above sea level and it was cool that day, so there was plenty of air.

New cold saws often have an off idle bog for the first few tanks of fuel. This doesn't automatically mean that the low is too lean, it's often because the engine is just a little tight. 

I've owned two saws with this type of carb, you can fully seat the H needle and the saw will only be slightly lean, and will run just fine.


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## cedarshark (Dec 4, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> The low side seemed a bit lean, which can also be an indication the high speed is also lean, as both sides work in tandem. However the high speed circuit was set spot on. I'm around 800' feet above sea level and it was cool that day, so there was plenty of air.
> 
> New cold saws often have an off idle bog for the first few tanks of fuel. This doesn't automatically mean that the low is too lean, it's often because the engine is just a little tight.
> 
> I've owned two saws with this type of carb, you can fully seat the H needle and the saw will only be slightly lean, and will run just fine.



Great info from both of you. Thanks. I am accustomed to tuning with a tach. Stihl publishes the high speed data in their shop manuals but I have found nothing that Echo mentions as a max high speed no load rpm. Have you guys located this somewhere?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2014)

cedarshark said:


> Great info from both of you. Thanks. I am accustomed to tuning with a tach. Stihl publishes the high speed data in their shop manuals but I have found nothing that Echo mentions as a max high speed no load rpm. Have you guys located this somewhere?


Echo's website has all the manuals for download, with specifications listed. Max no load rpm is just a rough guide line, not an absolute.

The 590 is listed at 13,000rpm, but I've yet to see that number with any consistency, it's likely too lean at that rpm.


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## RedFir Down (Dec 5, 2014)

The manual I have here for the 590 says max no load 12,000-13,000 rpm.




Andyshine77 said:


> The CS-590 does not have a fixed jet carb, and that is fact. It does have a bypass setup that prevents overly lean conditions. The carb will provide approximately 85% of required fuel, with the high speed needle fully seated. IMHO this is a step forward, unlike fixed jet carbs.


Where did you find this info Andre? I beat my head against the wall several months ago when I was playing with the tune on my 590 after a muffler mod..... your post explains alot.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 5, 2014)

RedFir Down said:


> The manual I have here for the 590 says max no load 12,000-13,000 rpm.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find this info Andre? I beat my head against the wall several months ago when I was playing with the tune on my 590 after a muffler mod..... your post explains alot.



A Stihl tech pointed me in the right direction. Tuning in the wood is your best bet.


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## cedarshark (Dec 5, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> A Stihl tech pointed me in the right direction. Tuning in the wood is your best bet.



I am sure the correct way to do it is in the wood. I tached mine out of the box at 12,900. It just sounded(to me) too lean, so i went to the rich end of the limit tab, tached it again at 12,200. I don't cut cookies,attend ctg's or cut for a living. I am not accustomed to a 20" bar being as "limber" as the OEM bar and will plan to change it when it wears out, but I really enjoy running the saw. So much so, I sold my 390 and will probably unload my 034. To me it seems to cut "bigger" than 59cc's. Probably all in my mind. But in the end, to me, thats what counts.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

RedFir Down said:


> Where did you find this info Andre? I beat my head against the wall several months ago when I was playing with the tune on my 590 after a muffler mod..... your post explains alot.


The factory number would not be relevant after a modification anyway.


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## RedFir Down (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> The factory number would not be relevant after a modification anyway.


Correct, but when the manual states MAX WOT no load rpm is suppose to be 12,000-13,000 I wanted to see what the saw was doing.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

RedFir Down said:


> Correct, but when the manual states MAX WOT no load rpm is suppose to be 12,000-13,000 I wanted to see what the saw was doing.


But what would that tell you? 

It's only purpose is to help you set the H screw, on the assumption that the relationship between the terminally rich fuel/air ratio at WOT and leaner mixture at lower rpm under load is still the same as a stock saw. Once modified, the relationship between the two rpm/mixture conditions is unknown, so the max WOT rpm is just a random number with no meaning.


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## RedFir Down (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> But what would that tell you?
> 
> It's only purpose is to help you set the H screw, on the assumption that the relationship between the terminally rich fuel/air ratio at WOT and leaner mixture at lower rpm under load is still the same as a stock saw. Once modified, the relationship between the two rpm/mixture conditions is unknown, so the max WOT rpm is just a random number with no meaning.


I was curious, is that ok with you?
Im actually fully aware of how to tune a saw and since I havent messed with a saw that had the high speed by pass (and at the time didnt know it) I was scratching my head for a bit.
FWIW with the High side screw snugged all the way in the saw was still turning a consistent 11,800 rpm.


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> The factory number would not be relevant after a modification anyway.



Sort of. As it arrived mine 4-stroked at 12,400. A mild muff mod & retune bumped it up to 12,800. Still pretty "relevant".


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

RedFir Down said:


> I was curious, is that ok with you?


Of course! People tend to assume meaning to the WOT rpm beyond just being a tool to set mixture. 


GrassGuerilla said:


> Sort of. As it arrived mine 4-stroked at 12,400. A mild muff mod & retune bumped it up to 12,800. Still pretty "relevant".


OK - what is the relevance of the extra 400rpm?


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## GrassGuerilla (Dec 5, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Of course! People tend to assume meaning to the WOT rpm beyond just being a tool to set mixture.
> OK - what is the relevance of the extra 400rpm?



Tell me, what is the relevance of 400 more rpms? It still falls within the stated spec. Seems like the specs are still relevant to me? At least as a guide line and starting point. No?


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## Chris-PA (Dec 5, 2014)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Tell me, what is the relevance of 400 more rpms? It still falls within the stated spec. Seems like the specs are still relevant to me? At least as a guide line and starting point. No?


No.

The relationship between the F/A ratio at no load WOT and the F/A ratio at 10,000rpm in the cut is complex. It is the result of many factors. When you mod the engine in any way significant enough to change the performance, then you can change that relationship.

The absolute no load WOT rpm value is also the result of many factors - the exact value of it means nothing as that is not an operating point.

The factory works out the correct mixture in the cut, and then they run it no load WOT and see where it goes. Then they tell you to set it there by adjusting the H screw - and since the engine is stock then you will have also duplicated their mixture setting at lower rpm in the cut (approximately). That range of no load WOT rpms is just a tool for setting the mixture at lower rpm on a stock saw.

Since the rpm went up at WOT after the mod maybe that means it is leaner. Maybe it mean it is leaner at 10,000rpm too. Maybe not. If so, how much? You can't know and that 400rpm WOT change doesn't tell you - it only tells you something changed. After a mod you need to set it by ear under load


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## Ambull01 (Dec 6, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> No.
> 
> The relationship between the F/A ratio at no load WOT and the F/A ratio at 10,000rpm in the cut is complex. It is the result of many factors. When you mod the engine in any way significant enough to change the performance, then you can change that relationship.
> 
> ...



Holy hell, I'm so confused right now. You guys are mad chainsaw scientists.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 6, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Holy hell, I'm so confused right now. You guys are mad chainsaw scientists.


There are a lot of misconceptions about max no-load wide open throttle rpm values and what they mean, and that is actually why I posted.

On a normal carb, like on a mower, you set the mixture for the main jet and it hold a roughly constant fuel/air ratio even as the air velocity through the carb changes. air velocity is approximately proportional to rpm, so it holds a fixed F/A ratio as the rpm changes.

I was surprised to find that these all-position carbs are not designed to work that way. With these the mixture gets richer as rpms increase - a lot richer. This is what causes "4-stroking" and if you increase the rpm/air velocity enough the mixture will become so rich it cannot rev any higher. That is how you can adjust the max no-load WOT rpm by turning the H screw, when all you are changing is the fuel mixture. 

However, this is just a tool for telling people how to set the mixture as I described before. If you mod the saw and the rpm up there goes up it doesn't tell you anything about how it will work at 10,000rpm, and you can't count on using the factory WOT rpm numbers to set the mixture anymore.


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## jd548esco (Dec 7, 2014)

i dont know folks-- it seems to run pretty darned good-- if i open up the muffler am i gone have to re-tune the carb?

the dealer must have set something right --she pulls real good in the wood.

--


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## Poleman (Dec 7, 2014)

Yep....thats a given on any muffler mod. Not hard to undo limiters on carb.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 7, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> There are a lot of misconceptions about max no-load wide open throttle rpm values and what they mean, and that is actually why I posted.
> 
> On a normal carb, like on a mower, you set the mixture for the main jet and it hold a roughly constant fuel/air ratio even as the air velocity through the carb changes. air velocity is approximately proportional to rpm, so it holds a fixed F/A ratio as the rpm changes.
> 
> ...



Isn't it because of the impulse line? Probably totally wrong but I just read about the impulse line purpose. Well, I meant to say just read it and subsequently forgot because I don't remember lol. Has something to do with air release/sucked from the cylinder as the piston moves up and down. So, if the impulse line is the reason fuel is pumped into the carb, kind of makes sense how increased RPMs would increase fuel. Not real sure what factors determine the amount of air sucked into the carb though.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 7, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Isn't it because of the impulse line? Probably totally wrong but I just read about the impulse line purpose. Well, I meant to say just read it and subsequently forgot because I don't remember lol. Has something to do with air release/sucked from the cylinder as the piston moves up and down. So, if the impulse line is the reason fuel is pumped into the carb, kind of makes sense how increased RPMs would increase fuel. Not real sure what factors determine the amount of air sucked into the carb though.


The impulse line just uses pressure pulses from the case to run a little fuel pump in the carb. This makes fuel available at the carb but has nothing to do with metering.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 7, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> The impulse line just uses pressure pulses from the case to run a little fuel pump in the carb. This makes fuel available at the carb but has nothing to do with metering.



Wouldn't stronger pulses (higher throttle) increase the fuel pumped? Sorry to totally derail this thread BTW.


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## zogger (Dec 7, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Wouldn't stronger pulses (higher throttle) increase the fuel pumped? Sorry to totally derail this thread BTW.



Yes, it pumps more fuel, but it doesn't change the amount per impulse or pump.

Think of a bicycle pump(not an exact analogy but close enough), you could pump it slow or wail on it, still won't change volume per pump.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 7, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Wouldn't stronger pulses (higher throttle) increase the fuel pumped? Sorry to totally derail this thread BTW.


It does not pump that fuel directly into the engine. It pumps it to a chamber in the carb, and there is a valve & regulator that creates a controlled reservoir for the carb to use when metering fuel. If there is more fuel than needed then the valve simply blocks it. Also, the impulse line really is only needed at idle - with higher air flows the carb can draw fuel from the tank.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 7, 2014)

zogger said:


> Yes, it pumps more fuel, but it doesn't change the amount per impulse or pump.
> 
> Think of a bicycle pump(not an exact analogy but close enough), you could pump it slow or wail on it, still won't change volume per pump.





Chris-PA said:


> It does not pump that fuel directly into the engine. It pumps it to a chamber in the carb, and there is a valve & regulator that creates a controlled reservoir for the carb to use when metering fuel. If there is more fuel than needed then the valve simply blocks it. Also, the impulse line really is only needed at idle - with higher air flows the carb can draw fuel from the tank.



I see. Thank you gentlemen for explaining that to me Barney style.


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## cobey (Dec 8, 2014)

7sleeper said:


> Just a general comment. If it had fixed jets it would not be possible to adjust the carb! Fixed jets are usually only on small homeowner saws = Stihl 170/180, etc.
> 
> 7


 it has an extra fixed jet to avoid lean self distruct


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## cobey (Dec 8, 2014)

Andyshine77 said:


> The CS-590 does not have a fixed jet carb, and that is fact. It does have a bypass setup that prevents overly lean conditions. The carb will provide approximately 85% of required fuel, with the high speed needle fully seated. IMHO this is a step forward, unlike fixed jet carbs.


 this is what i was trying to get out.... thanks Andy


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## jd548esco (Jan 8, 2015)

still running the timber wolf bone stock except for the carb tune it got at the dealer-- i haven't even removed the muffler screen--much less mod the muffler or remove the limiters.


if anything the saw seems to have got stronger--ran it hard today--all day-- and it still pulls the 20" full chisel chain with no problems through some rough post oaks of about 24" good RPM and gobs of torque. 

i figure it will pull a 24" bar without any mods-- 

certainly no hurry to mod as it is screaming with the 20" --

as much as i hate to say it-- i was thinking of getting a 620P --but i don't think i'm going to need more saw after all. very happy with the 590-- i don't know if my 590 is "typical" but this is a very strong 60cc saw-- it just eats up my 57cc shindawg and is nipping at the heels of my well used 70.7cc 440s.

and the more i run the timber wolf--the better i'm liking it-- and i was one of them echo haters before too--

the only big question is will it hold up? -=-and this one will take a while--


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

mine is bone stock besides pulling the limiters mine has 15 tanks of 40:1 in it so far 
im looking for a better bar for it can anyone give me some part numbers for them.


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## Chris-PA (Jan 8, 2015)

jd548esco said:


> the only big question is will it hold up? -=-and this one will take a while--


Reliability/longevity isn’t something Echo has had a problem with in the past.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

put it this way the amish loggers use them here daily some of the saws are close to 30 yrs old.


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## Ambull01 (Jan 8, 2015)

jd548esco said:


> still running the timber wolf bone stock except for the carb tune it got at the dealer-- i haven't even removed the muffler screen--much less mod the muffler or remove the limiters.
> 
> 
> if anything the saw seems to have got stronger--ran it hard today--all day-- and it still pulls the 20" full chisel chain with no problems through some rough post oaks of about 24" good RPM and gobs of torque.
> ...



Nice. The 590 was on my want list along with the Makita 6421 and PP 5020AV, just so happened I found the Makita at a great price first. 

I thought the 590 and 620 was basically the same saw, just the 620 has a few more "pro" features?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

a 590 is a detuned 600 according to echo customer service.


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## Ambull01 (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> a 590 is a detuned 600 according to echo customer service.



I see. Got my model numbers mixed up I guess.


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## jd548esco (Jan 8, 2015)

now i didn't say i would pass up a deal on a 620-- just that i don't think i need a 620--LOL

well some of us have a rather "extreme" version of the term -- holding up--

since 440s, and some of the j-reds held up for 20+ years-- i think one of my 044s is a 89 model--

i don't know if i will be dropping hardwoods for that long--- even if the saw is able--LOL

i'm pretty sure the 590 will well do the value of work for the modest cost --several times over--

i am impressed at the power of the thing-- i wish they made a 70+ cc version-- it would certainly be "in the big leagues" and be able to run with the big boys.

if echo priced it 'right" they would sell a few ship loads of um--- the 590 is the best saw i have seen for the price--no contest--

and i was one of those" its got to be a husky/stihl/jonesred" guys for the last 35 years--

aside from a few shindaiwas and alpines --i have never owned anything else--

way back in the day we ran homalite 360s cutting pulpwood --and seems like a few 410s --

i can remember the old echos-- we sort of giggled every time we heard one running--

these 60cc echos are a whole new game though.


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## Poleman (Jan 8, 2015)

Anyone have an idea of what is the difference other than cosmetics between the 590, 600 & 620??

Been wondering if it's carb, ignition since the are all 59.8 cc's.

Great runners is all can say!!!


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## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2015)

Poleman said:


> Anyone have an idea what is the difference other than cosmetics between the 590, 600 & 620??
> 
> Been wondering if it's carb, ignition since the are all 59.8 cc's.
> 
> Great runners is all can say!!!


Piston, cylinder between the 590 and 600.piston, cylinder, carb,flywheel and coil between the 600 and 620.


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## zogger (Jan 8, 2015)

jughead500 said:


> Piston, cylinder between the 590 and 600.piston, cylinder, carb,flywheel and coil between the 600 and 620.



Handle bars and clutch/ drive setup as well I think.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

i might order the full wrap handle for mine and the rim drive set up.
i do my felling with this saw.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

it does look nice


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## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2015)

zogger said:


> Handle bars and clutch/ drive setup as well I think.


That too.just listed the main components


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## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2015)

That full wrap is sexy along with the dual dawgz i got the dawgz on my 600 just not the full wrap.the only saw i have a full wrap on is my pm1000 but that gotta change need one one on the ms441 or 360.


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## jughead500 (Jan 8, 2015)

I usually use my 600 for stumpin.thats why i have the dual dawgz.comes in handy for maple and pine and the benifit of plenty of torque to pull a 20" chain.


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 8, 2015)

The piston and cylinders are the same, same porting numbers. The coil, carb, top handle, and flywheel are different. From all reports the performance difference is negligible.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

i would like to try the big cs-680 it is cheaper than 620 i know it might be a little heavier and lack some speed but it has got to have some torque and the manual overide oiler seems awesome. i wish randy would get one to port and see what kind of power it can make.
or maybe get a cs-800p and slap a 24 on it and have some fun


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## cobey (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> mine is bone stock besides pulling the limiters mine has 15 tanks of 40:1 in it so far
> im looking for a better bar for it can anyone give me some part numbers for them.


check bailys bar finder, if you have a large mount husky bar, it will fit and oil with 3/8 bar adapers (i made some out of a peice of hose clamp)
the large husky is loose on the bar studs without the adapter 5/16 t0 3/8 but the tail fits the oil hole
i run a lg mount 24" husky on mine, now there is a 20"lg husky mount forester (d009) on it today 72 driver 3/8 .050


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

ok thanks cobey. people seem to be paranoid about finding chains for these saws but i can get either or type of chain at the stihl/echo dealer fine.
he cut me a stihl chain for it and its better than what came with the saw factory. but 70dl chain is very common here.


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## cobey (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> it does look nice
> View attachment 392945


 
nice wrap, but it was around $100 to my door where i priced it


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## zogger (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> i would like to try the big cs-680 it is cheaper than 620 i know it might be a little heavier and lack some speed but it has got to have some torque and the manual overide oiler seems awesome. i wish randy would get one to port and see what kind of power it can make.
> or maybe get a cs-800p and slap a 24 on it and have some fun



My cs8000 I built from two junkers was my favorite saw until it got stolen. Ya a bit heavy, but dang, it pulled chain on a 36 in oak and hickory no problem and oiled it great! Also easiest to start larger saw I ever touched.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

i know a local saw shop we call it the rat rod it has gray and orange covers has a gutted muffler and jug gasket removal done its a mean saw it isn't fast like a 390 but it has got more torque and will hold its own in the wood its a cs 8000.


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## zogger (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> i know a local saw shop we call it the rat rod it has gray and orange covers has a gutted muffler and jug gasket removal done its a mean saw it isn't fast like a 390 but it has got more torque and will hold its own in the wood its a cs 8000.



Ya, mine was two tone as well, older grayish white and modern orange.


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## awol (Jan 8, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The piston and cylinders are the same, same porting numbers. The coil, carb, top handle, and flywheel are different. From all reports the performance difference is negligible.


 Do you mean there is no difference in porting between the 590 and 600, or between the 600 and 620? There is much difference between the 590 and 600 timing numbers, as I have ported more than one of each. The transfer tunnels and upper outlets are also shaped different, and the cylinders are different part numbers. Here are the stock timing numbers:
600P
EX 113/134
In 102/156 or 78 from tdc
TR 133/94


590
EX 113/134
IN 103/154 or 77 from tdc
TR 128/104


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## cobey (Jan 8, 2015)

jakewells said:


> i would like to try the big cs-680 it is cheaper than 620 i know it might be a little heavier and lack some speed but it has got to have some torque and the manual overide oiler seems awesome. i wish randy would get one to port and see what kind of power it can make.
> or maybe get a cs-800p and slap a 24 on it and have some fun


 have ran both 800 and , 670 ... not the saws that the 590, 600, or 620 are AWOL is working on a 670 now
it was poopy slow compared to a 600p or 590. the 8000 pulled hard but wasnt much wow factor
i would think both saws could be cool with a little grinder work, i also bet both bigger echos are rock solid reliable


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## cobey (Jan 8, 2015)

i ran a new red 8000

Hey Alan you run the 670 yet???


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## awol (Jan 8, 2015)

Yeah, it's a real turd! Gonna be kinda hard to get much more out of it, but we'll see what we can do.


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## cobey (Jan 8, 2015)

awol said:


> Yeah, it's a real turd! Gonna be kinda hard to get much more out of it, but we'll see what we can do.


the 8000 I ran wasnt bad, kinda ran like a reed valve , kinda


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## jd548esco (Jan 8, 2015)

i compared the 620 directly to a 590 in the local atwoods the other day.

the 620 i looked over had a 24" bar and chain, and a plastic clutch cover-- looked identical to the 590 on the outside except for the plastic handle and the 24" pro bar and chain.

it was $240 more than the 590 with the 20" . my local husky dealer also sells echos he didn't have a 620p in stock at the time i bought the 590.

all the 590,600p and 620s look a lot the same-- i think the 620P has those big bar nuts-- i don't think you can go wrong with any of those three.

a 620p would be interesting as it has more power than the 590/600 -- since i have some time to run the dickens out of the 590 i can say if they 620P has 20-23% more power than this 590 or was it 600 ? --it is going to be a "factory" hot rod of sorts for its size. a little over 5hp from 60cc ain't bad at all--


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

according to saw troll these saws need to go in the trash he said the power to weight is low and the price means low quality
well numbers don't mean anything when it comes to real world testing my saw ate a 55 rancher the other day and embarrased a stihl 039.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jan 8, 2015)

awol said:


> Yeah, it's a real turd! Gonna be kinda hard to get much more out of it, but we'll see what we can do.


compared to the husky its better because it doesn't leak oil everywhere


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## Andyshine77 (Jan 9, 2015)

awol said:


> Do you mean there is no difference in porting between the 590 and 600, or between the 600 and 620? There is much difference between the 590 and 600 timing numbers, as I have ported more than one of each. The transfer tunnels and upper outlets are also shaped different, and the cylinders are different part numbers. Here are the stock timing numbers:
> 600P
> EX 113/134
> In 102/156 or 78 from tdc
> ...



The numbers I was given were the same on both saws. I do know when I was doing my research, both the 590 and 600 cylinders had the same part numbers, that was changed last summer I believe. From your numbers it looks like any real cylinder performance difference would be in the transfers. Are the exhaust and intake port shapes the same?

We also may be dealing with supply issues. Quite a few manufactures would upgrade the cylinder on lower displacement models if they ran out of cylinder. Poulan did this all the time back in the day. I'll degree my 590 and report back.


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## 7sleeper (Jan 9, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The numbers I was given were the same on both saws. I do know when I was doing my research, both the 590 and 600 cylinders had the same part numbers, that was changed last summer I believe. From your numbers it looks like any real cylinder performance difference would be in the transfers. Are the exhaust and intake port shapes the same?
> 
> *We also may be dealing with supply issues. Quite a few manufactures would upgrade the cylinder on lower displacement models if they ran out of cylinder. *Poulan did this all the time back in the day. I'll degree my 590 and report back.


 Same thing on my Oleo Mac 962. Mine is a 2013 version with quad port, although the original was only dual port.

7


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## awol (Jan 11, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> The numbers I was given were the same on both saws. I do know when I was doing my research, both the 590 and 600 cylinders had the same part numbers, that was changed last summer I believe. From your numbers it looks like any real cylinder performance difference would be in the transfers. Are the exhaust and intake port shapes the same?
> 
> We also may be dealing with supply issues. Quite a few manufactures would upgrade the cylinder on lower displacement models if they ran out of cylinder. Poulan did this all the time back in the day. I'll degree my 590 and report back.



Yes sir, the In and EX Ports are the same shape, and the EX port is at the same height, the IN is only a tiny bit lower on the 600.
There are also two generations of 600 saws, each may have different numbers. The only 600 that I degreed stock was a late one. Sure would like to have one of them 620's to take apart and compare!


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## mountainlake (Jan 11, 2015)

jakewells said:


> i know a local saw shop we call it the rat rod it has gray and orange covers has a gutted muffler and jug gasket removal done its a mean saw it isn't fast like a 390 but it has got more torque and will hold its own in the wood its a cs 8000.



Same here my CS8000 has no where near the RPM of my good running 385xp but holds it's own in cutting speed with a aggressive chain. Steve


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

awol said:


> Here are the stock timing numbers:
> 600P
> EX 113/134
> In 102/156 or 78 from tdc
> ...



Interesting numbers. The variability of timing numbers from saw to saw (different manufacturers) is quite diverse.


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## awol (Jan 11, 2015)

Yes it is. Even the way that two different people measure the timing on the same saw can vary widely.
What I found interesting on these Echos when I first checked them, was the very low Ex duration, and comparatively high In duration. The high bore to stroke ratio must make this necessary, because raising the EX up to a more standard number does little for performance, the saw still has a low powerband.


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

600 is 45mm bore x ??mm stroke?


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## awol (Jan 11, 2015)

37mm stroke I think.


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## Four Paws (Jan 11, 2015)

What is the factory Squish measurement?


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## fordf150 (Jan 11, 2015)

awol said:


> Yes sir, the In and EX Ports are the same shape, and the EX port is at the same height, the IN is only a tiny bit lower on the 600.
> There are also two generations of 600 saws, each may have different numbers. The only 600 that I degreed stock was a late one. Sure would like to have one of them 620's to take apart and compare!


i made the mistake of quoting in a thread the 600 part numbers when comparing these saws. 600 is totally different saw than the 600P. when looking at the ipl for these saws be sure to compare 590,600P and 620P.

http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...s600-cs600p-cs620-cs620pw-differences.257613/ very first post is parts numbers for the major components and at the time it was posted they were all current parts numbers.


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## awol (Jan 11, 2015)

Four Paws said:


> What is the factory Squish measurement?


 Stock squish with gasket was .039 for the 590, and .041 for the 600. Both models have a very shallow and wide combustion chamber, so the stock squish band is very narrow. A small amount of material removed from the band and base made a large increase in compression.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

jakewells said:


> mine is bone stock besides pulling the limiters mine has 15 tanks of 40:1 in it so far
> im looking for a better bar for it can anyone give me some part numbers for them.



I have a Clean Echo 24" Bar for it if your interested!


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

awol said:


> Yes sir, the In and EX Ports are the same shape, and the EX port is at the same height, the IN is only a tiny bit lower on the 600.
> There are also two generations of 600 saws, each may have different numbers. The only 600 that I degreed stock was a late one. Sure would like to have one of them 620's to take apart and compare!



I have one you can take apart and look at (with your grinder  ) but seriously let me know your address and ill get it that way...


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## awol (Jun 1, 2015)

Wow, now that is a generous offer! How does your 620 compare to a 590 or 600?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> I have a Clean Echo 24" Bar for it if your interested!


i got a poulan 24'' on mine for the moment it uses the same mount as the poulan 3400 and poulan 306
D176 i think? thank you for the offer though ask jug head if he needs it?


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## stihlslinger (Jun 1, 2015)

Where do you find a full wrap handle and the dual dawgs?


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

you can buy a the 620PW wrap handle on the echo website.
its costly or maybe find a used unit on fleabay.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

jakewells said:


> i got a poulan 24'' on mine for the moment it uses the same mount as the poulan 3400 and poulan 306
> D176 i think? thank you for the offer though ask jug head if he needs it?



I didnt, well I mentioned it in the 2015 620 Thread as a general "Anyone want/need this?" Yes you are correct D176 is 3/8" .050" for Echo large mount.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

have you tried some stihl chain on the saw? that is what im using now and it holds a edge 3x longer than the factory chain.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

awol said:


> Wow, now that is a generous offer! How does your 620 compare to a 590 or 600?




I would like to see what someone could get out of a ported on. For me, the 620 is like the bad ass older brother of the 590, 600 family. Check out some of the videos on YouTube (in my link) but it is strong... Higher RPM (unlimited coil), larger carb, different porting, the full wrap is sweet and only $30 more then a half wrap. I run the 27" bar on the 620 and 600. The 620 does everything the 600 does but faster and sounds better while doing it.

Saw Troll will tell you otherwise, but for $650 I dont think you could find a stronger saw out of the box (or with a muffler mod). It pulls a full comp chain through green pine and Oak with no issues, burps or complaints. The saw it built stout, yes recoil is plastic but has a mag clutch cover, inboard clutch, easily adj oiler, solid aluminum case halves and handles great. I have guess everyone has those "saws" that put a smile on your face when you use them, my list is pretty short (like Rattlers ported Huskys) but the 620 is one of those saws... great power band and solid all around.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

jakewells said:


> have you tried some stihl chain on the saw? that is what im using now and it holds a edge 3x longer than the factory chain.



I havent, stock chain is LPX, I run LGX, I think it is good, holds and edge a little longer, bigger bites and doesnt strech too much, if I knew someone who made chain near me I wouldn't hesitate to ask though, seem like most people like that Stihl (RS?) chain...


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

set you're eyes on a ported cs 8oop its a bit bulky but it has a lot of torque and can be fun to use.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)




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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

Never ran a 800 or seen one ported... You like it?


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## stihlslinger (Jun 1, 2015)

The best chain I've run on mine (not that I've had it that long) is a woodland pro 30cr full chisle dropped straight though 14" red oak like a hot knife in butter


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

stihlslinger said:


> The best chain I've run on mine (not that I've had it that long) is a woodland pro 30cr full chisle dropped straight though 14" red oak like a hot knife in butter



You have a 590? Stock? Throw some saw info in your signature line, and welcome


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> I havent, stock chain is LPX, I run LGX, I think it is good, holds and edge a little longer, bigger bites and doesnt strech too much, if I knew someone who made chain near me I wouldn't hesitate to ask though, seem like most people like that Stihl (RS?) chain...


try this on your 20'' 620 echo the price is higher but the chain lasts 10x longer than other brands.
http://www.baileysonline.com/Chains...-3623-005-0070.axd?PartFinderType=ChainFinder


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 1, 2015)

i use stihl brand because i deal with some awful wood like black locust,black gum, red oak, hackberry, hedge.


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## BGE541 (Jun 1, 2015)

jakewells said:


> try this on your 20'' 620 echo the price is higher but the chain lasts 10x longer than other brands.
> http://www.baileysonline.com/Chains...-3623-005-0070.axd?PartFinderType=ChainFinder



WHOA pricey stuff but you say it lasts longer? Ill saw you that bar for some chains


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## cobey (Jun 1, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> I didnt, well I mentioned it in the 2015 620 Thread as a general "Anyone want/need this?" Yes you are correct D176 is 3/8" .050" for Echo large mount.


I could use a 24" for my echo


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 2, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> Never ran a 800 or seen one ported... You like it?


yep i want to find another


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## BGE541 (Jun 2, 2015)

jakewells said:


> yep i want to find another




Not too loud! Looks nice!


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 2, 2015)

a muffler mod and base gasket delete goes along ways with the 8000 or 800p otherwise it's a choked down pig oink oink 
trying to breath through a 1/4 inch hole in the exhaust.


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## Deleted member 83629 (Jun 2, 2015)

BGE541 said:


> Not too loud! Looks nice!


not my saw and that is bone stock.


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## cobey (Jun 2, 2015)

That's Sweet...... i dig my echo' s


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## BGE541 (Jun 2, 2015)

jakewells said:


> not my saw and that is bone stock.


I guess I ASSumed that when you put "yep i want to find another" and a video it was yours...


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## Idahonative (Dec 5, 2015)

Andyshine77 said:


> I'll be porting my 590 as soon as I get a few other projects complete. I will likely start a build thread when I have the time.



Andre, do you still plan to port your 590?


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## BGE541 (Mar 24, 2016)

We having a timberwolf build off?


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## Andyshine77 (Mar 24, 2016)

Sorry just saw this thread again. Yes I'll eventually be porting the saw, however I still have some testing against other saws in it class before I do.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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