# Buy or lease torch tanks?



## c5rulz (Feb 10, 2018)

Not a big user but I have been looking at getting a oxy/acetylene torch for the garage. Sounds like the very small carry torches have way too small capacity and refills are very high for the small tanks compared to the larger 80 cubic foot O2 cylinders.

Options:

1. Buy for $650 80CF O2 and C3 acetylene kit, includes Smith torches, regulators and hose. Includes a cart and own the tanks.

2. Airgas wants $450 out the door with Smith torches, regulators and hose and includes a 5 year lease. Tanks are full. Lease is $210/5 years for both tanks. Does not have cart, but they are $50. Never have to worry about re-certifying tanks.

Owning would take 10 years to break even, don't know how much work I'll be doing then. 

I looked at buying used tanks but this is an iffy proposition as getting them filled can be difficult. A lot of the used tanks on Craigslist are unreturned rental tanks and they will not fill them.

What say Ye?


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## Knobby57 (Feb 10, 2018)

I buy used tanks all the time auctions, yard sales , flee markets . Cl if the price is good .if someone leases a tank and sells it they are responsible to pay for the tank so it’s not a good idea to sell a lease on the sellers side . That said the doo all the time . I’ve picked up tanks for 25-50$ and can take them to the local gas place and they will outrite by the tanks from me for 2 times that . They are worth more in date . 25-35 $ to get them resertified . So if you do by some keep that in mind . Throw the guy on the dock a 10$ spot and ask for a tank that has a lot of time left on the test date . Try to get the xx after the date those can be overfilled . Tc supply will also exchange tanks at some locations . I have at least 5 torch sets and probably 20-25 extra tanks around . I’m sure I don’t have more than 500$ invested . That’s said Airgas sucks . Expensive and poor service at every location I’ve ever been will only deal with there own tanks and you can’t buy the large tanks , lease only . I see torch sets all the time for 150-200 used .


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## blades (Feb 10, 2018)

air gas - ugh, they bought out my last two suppliers and each time they tried to bill me rental fees on tanks i have owned for 20 + years. Back in the day you could buy any size tank you wanted. the trend now is to only rent the large tanks, and being picky about what tanks they will fill - not counting certification times. Its all about revenue sources period. Same bull with the propane companies.


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## c5rulz (Feb 10, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> I buy used tanks all the time auctions, yard sales , flee markets . Cl if the price is good .if someone leases a tank and sells it they are responsible to pay for the tank so it’s not a good idea to sell a lease on the sellers side . That said the doo all the time . I’ve picked up tanks for 25-50$ and can take them to the local gas place and they will outrite by the tanks from me for 2 times that . They are worth more in date . 25-35 $ to get them resertified . So if you do by some keep that in mind . Throw the guy on the dock a 10$ spot and ask for a tank that has a lot of time left on the test date . Try to get the xx after the date those can be overfilled . Tc supply will also exchange tanks at some locations . I have at least 5 torch sets and probably 20-25 extra tanks around . I’m sure I don’t have more than 500$ invested . That’s said Airgas sucks . Expensive and poor service at every location I’ve ever been will only deal with there own tanks and you can’t buy the large tanks , lease only . I see torch sets all the time for 150-200 used .




Last week I was about to buy a used CL torch kit with "owned tanks". On the fill collar one was stamped "Airgas and the other Matheson". The guy promised they were owned and he had them filled at Air gas in Milwaukee all the time. The local Airgas folks were great and said they would switch ownership over to me without problem if I could give them the name of the acct. that was used in Milwaukee. When I called the guy back he then was unable to provide a account holder name that the tanks were filled under. I did not buy these and had I, they could not have been filled.

People get upset with Airgas for not filling tanks like listed above. But the tanks in question are the PROPERTY OF AIRGAS. They have the right to confiscate them. That is not unreasonable.


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## c5rulz (Feb 10, 2018)

blades said:


> air gas - ugh, they bought out my last two suppliers and each time they tried to bill me rental fees on tanks i have owned for 20 + years. Back in the day you could buy any size tank you wanted. the trend now is to only rent the large tanks, and being picky about what tanks they will fill - not counting certification times. Its all about revenue sources period. Same bull with the propane companies.




Airgas said they would fill tanks, it's just that they can't be unreturned lease tanks. I do not feel that is unreasonable. Stamped tanks are the property of the company on the collar. Granted some of these have gone out of business and they complicates matters.


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## Knobby57 (Feb 10, 2018)

If they are leased tanks it’s the person that leased them to pay for them if not returned . There are way to may companies and tanks . You can get any name from most supliers . Air gas is strict their tanks only . Also never have I dropped off “my tanks “ and had that exact tank filled . They give you a exchange and there is no track of serial numbers of what tank is where . I had a tank at one point that had that natzi swatsticas on it . I’ve heard there where a lot of these brought back from the war . Some tanks are old ass hell .. that all said I’ve never heard of a tank being confiscated . I won’t go to airgas anyhow to find out . They are very spendy like 50%more than everyone else . Never have the proper size bottle filled for exchange and not open on saturdays , piss poor stock of welding supplies . Learned my lesson years ago when I bought a tank and 2 months later they wanted me to pay a fee to certify a out of date bottle I just purchased . If I wasn’t belessed with skinny arms I would have been able to throw the bottle at them !!! That’s when I learned the store with the nice store front and pretty sighn in the primo location has to pay for all that somehow . I now take my business to a place where the store is off the beaten path , no big pretty building or sighn and the service is fantastic . If I go in and ask for something they normally stock and are out they are super apologetic and the guy at the desk will drop them off at my place on his way home from work when they come in . And I’m far from a big account . I just diddle around in my shop . May spent 5 k in 5 years and 2500 of that was a new welder .. I love local not franchise businesses


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## Conquistador3 (Feb 10, 2018)

I am pretty sure there are several leasing options in your area: even here every supplier of industrial gases offers several lease options on gas tanks depending on your needs. Small workshop using oxy a lot, small workshop using oxy occasional, large firm etc. Having quotes mailed in can help you get better deal as well. 

Personally I will never, ever buy tanks again: I have two empty ones I need to dispose of as they cannot be recertified (and hence refilled) anymore and nobody wants to take them, not as scrap metal, not as "special waste". For me it's lease all the way from here on: when the lease is up you just return them and be done with it. Let them deal with certification and disposal.


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## Knobby57 (Feb 10, 2018)

Conquistador3 said:


> I am pretty sure there are several leasing options in your area: even here every supplier of industrial gases offers several lease options on gas tanks depending on your needs. Small workshop using oxy a lot, small workshop using oxy occasional, large firm etc. Having quotes mailed in can help you get better deal as well.
> 
> Personally I will never, ever buy tanks again: I have two empty ones I need to dispose of as they cannot be recertified (and hence refilled) anymore and nobody wants to take them, not as scrap metal, not as "special waste". For me it's lease all the way from here on: when the lease is up you just return them and be done with it. Let them deal with certification and disposal.


What is wrong with the tanks that they can’t be retested ? Also we have a few scrap places that take old propane and torch tanks and the sort . Its only a couple bucks but they take them . Only time I had trouble with tanks not able to retest was they sat in dirt for 30 some years and They where pretty pitted . If they are rusty they are probably toast


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## Conquistador3 (Feb 10, 2018)

Knobby57 said:


> What is wrong with the tanks that they can’t be retested ? Also we have a few scrap places that take old propane and torch tanks and the sort . Its only a couple bucks but they take them . Only time I had trouble with tanks not able to retest was they sat in dirt for 30 some years and They where pretty pitted . If they are rusty they are probably toast



What's different? EU legislation my dear.


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## Franny K (Feb 11, 2018)

If you want to use single flame acetylene welding heads really one should have an assortment of them. The starter kits most likely have only a couple. I think Smith uses a mixer and tip for each size which is better but more costly than say Harris that uses one mixer for a range of size tips.

As you most likely know you are only supposed to use 1/7 the capacity of the acetylene tank in an hour or draw out at that rate. I buy 40 cubic foot size acetylene tanks not sure the code for that size and lease the biggest oxygen cylinder I can get. My situation is most likely different than yours. I get propane compatible hoses and use propane or natural gas for some things. Acetylene is great stuff. Airgas is to be avoided if possible at least around here, they bought out a lot of the competition. They add haz mat fees to just about everything and do not include those fees in any quotes.

The Harris automatic torches are great in my opinion, at least convenient.


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## 16:1mix (Feb 24, 2018)

c5rulz said:


> Not a big user but I have been looking at getting a oxy/acetylene torch for the garage. Sounds like the very small carry torches have way too small capacity and refills are very high for the small tanks compared to the larger 80 cubic foot O2 cylinders.
> 
> Options:
> 
> ...


I'll throw this out. I use propane as fuel gas with a BBQ tank as fuel supply. Cheap alternative to buying another expensive tank. Torch tips for LP gas are reasonable cost and regular is same. Works for me.


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## blades (Feb 24, 2018)

all depends on how much heat you need- lpg will not always get you there.


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## sonny580 (Feb 24, 2018)

Lp is a waste of time/money!---Do as I did, buy the big tanks and own them! when empty take them in for EXCHANGE and ya got current cert. tanks!
I would never consider renting tanks!
Here in this area Prax-air is the supplier and yes they sell ANY size tanks you want!--Your area/brand may differ. thanks; sonny580


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## LegDeLimber (Feb 24, 2018)

Some years ago, I was helping a friend do some salvage cutting.
He brought me some grill tanks (of propane).
We were only handling mild steel, mostly hot rolled stuff.
I was mostly cutting stuff around 1/4 or less thick.
Some occasional flanges or mounts would be up to 3/4.
Most stuff still had a faded coat of paint or fairly light rust.

Using the propane of course has lower BTUs and flame temp.
What I did was just run the flame a hair on the oxidizing side. Maybe a tiny bit more so If I was in the heavier stock.

This Will erode the tip faster.
So you'll have to do your math to decide if the shorter tip life is worth it.
Since The fuel was free, it was an acceptable trade off.

For lighter gauge cutting, sheet 1/8 and under, the propane aint too bad.

I never tried any welding with propane, so I can't tell you what it's worth for that task.
Hopefully Someone with the knowledge of it will speak out.
As I cant tell you if it has any significant affect on the weld quality.
edit: I should say that you would set for a neutral flame when welding.
The oxidizing flame was acceptable for cutting scrap.


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## Cope1024 (Feb 24, 2018)

Tank and refill cost varies from town to town, as does leasing vs buying. In Houston, I have owned my tanks since 1990 or so.


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## Dale M (Feb 24, 2018)

Bigger is better for an oxygen tank, you go through about 3 oxy tanks to 1 acetylene If your cutting. And I bought them.
D


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## Franny K (Feb 25, 2018)

The Praxair in Marietta Ohio has a limit to what you can buy, I think it is somewhere around 150 cubic feet (standard cubic feet means at 40 psi if I recall) after that need lease. There must be a lot of leeway in this stuff as they are a much better deal than Airgas around where I show my location.

Whether propane is more economic is questionable, You will use more oxygen, maybe a lot. It could possibly only be really "cheaper" if you use liquid oxygen. Propane or natural gas do get away from the 1/7 which may be 1/10 rule of acetylene. Only Harris has alternate fuel designed single flame tips that I am aware of. they also have dedicated mixers/injectors for the largest class of handle. And they are the little screw on ones not the longer curved ones. Acetylene is good stuff, much easier to light and much better in the wind. One needs the carbon monoxide shielding of acetylene to weld steel.

If the flame temp is lower temperature chances are you are actually going to end up using more btu per time unit and more time to get going.


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## LegDeLimber (Feb 25, 2018)

Franny k. thanks for the answers.
I've been away from the hands on part of things, for too long now.
It's getting harder to recall some finer points and then get them into written words.

I think I was half wondering if the propane had any combustion byproducts that would be detrimental to the weld zone. 
Something along the lines of, does the "odorant" (sulpher still?) contaminate
the weld, to a degree that matters?

Yeah, the lower heat production means we spend longer time dumping heat into the work piece.
we may find that the work piece sinks/absorbs/dissipates heat a bit too fast for the propane.
Would need more clamping to hold parts in place while you get the weld done.
Added stress from the, extra, expansion and then post weld cooling
wont be good for things.
More warping or parts just not fitting afterwards.

"Heat & beat, to fit" should stay an old joke, not become a work method due to a -missperceived, mistaken- cost reduction.


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## Franny K (Feb 25, 2018)

The bi products should be about the same for propane and acetylene,they both are just carbon and hydrogen. The inner cone uses the oxygen from the hose,the outer cone the oxygen from the atmosphere. Natural gas I think can have all sorts of other things besides methane. The odor added to propane isn't mentioned in literature I have read. For steel the acetylene seems to use up all the oxygen from the hose with carbon monoxide as the bi product at the inner cone. Welding steel with gas use acetylene. I think aluminum can be gas welded with propane, same flux.

Generally steel welding is better arc or something besides gas. I find gas welding steel useful for tacking exposed corners as essentially nothing need touch the set up.

Aluminum gas welding if you can do it is generally more malleable than arc. Also you do the cleaning after welding. Seeing what you are doing and set up and welding are not easy. There are folks that can make it look easy.


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## LegDeLimber (Feb 26, 2018)

my little anecdote for aluminum and gas welds:
I worked in an electric motor repair shop for awhile.
We mainly delt with re-baring the rotors.
A sales rep brought in a stick arc rod (flux coated of course) that also would work for gas torch welding.
You could grab a rosebud tip and about three rods at once
then do a lap weld.

We were pulling a bar out of a laminated stack rotor
about 4 ft long.
The bar was about 3/8 thick at the top and prob 1/4 at the bottom, roughly 4" tall and bout 4' long.
These rotors were typically subjected to a fair bit of heat during motor failure and the bars were pretty bad to hang in the laminations, when being pulled or driven out.

We would drive the bar out a few inches, with a large hammer and scrap of old bar, then we welded a slide hammer to the exposed end of the bar.
Hammer slide weighed about ten lb, on about 5' rod.
The hammer pad had a slab of alum bolted to it and we then welded the slab to a rotor bar and commenced to yanking.

The coated, stick rod was what we used to weld the hammer to the rotor bars.
We overlapped 3~4" and grabed 2~3 rods & rosebud and proceded to run a bead around 3 sides fillet joint where the hammer pad was wider then the bar under pull.

As you can imagine, we put a damned good shock load on these welds!
As long as you kept a, truly, clean wire brush for the prep work
and payed a little attention to your procedure, the weld was pretty simple to get reliable results from.

During the pulling efforts, the weld might break or the hammer might snap. We clobbered every component in the process. stretched the hammer rod till snap, you name it.
But the general durability of the weld impressed me.

Edit: I guess that how well the rods worked, are why I still recall a few details of the job.
That and the funny shaped fingernail I still have, from an errant hammer swing while pounding the bars.


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## lostone (Mar 31, 2018)

Never had a problem here with used tanks. When I was ready to buy my first set of tanks 25 years ago I heard about having to watch out for stolen tanks etc.

I went to airgas and several other local supplies and was told the same thing, they have no idea if the tanks are rented or owned. US Welding told me I could have walked around the end of the building and grabbed two of their tanks and told them they where mine and they would have just exchanged them with filled tanks. I kept exchanging those tanks for probably 15 years before I sold them to a friend who still has and exchanges them without ever having to prove that I owned them or whoever owned them before I bought them.

I have heard that they wont exchange personal owned tanks and that you have to have them re-cert. They always just exchanged them with tanks they had in the back and I never had to have a tank re-cert done. I still have my small carry set from when I did service work and still the same process, I take them in and just exchange them when I need a full set.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Mar 31, 2018)

You all have odd rules.

Here you just do a tank exchange for up to 200? Cu/ft (whatever size is about 5ft tall, 10" around). IE, normal non industrial sized.

I've never been fussed. I brought in an acetylene tank that was probably 60 years old and had been sitting outside for who knows how long half buried in dirt. I brought back a good full tank, they didn't hesitate.


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## ironman_gq (May 16, 2018)

Tank recert is $10-20 and tank lifespan is considered to be around 100yrs but can be extended by recert. It's pretty common to still come across old WWII tanks that have swastikas on them, most have been boxed out by now so the swastika looks like a square with a + in the middle but date stamps going back to the 30's. Only reason to scrap a tank is if it's dented, overly rusted, pitted, leaking, or the acetylene medium has degraded.


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## Huskybill (May 24, 2018)

All gas just went up on my lease cost. I need to do something, my fabrication comes in spurts. Once I’m busy im good I’m down as a high end user. Lots of work.
Getting prostate cancer the past six years it’s in remission and my strength is coming back. Time to dust of the Hobart welder.
I can’t handle the T tanks anymore I’m one size smaller.


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