# When will lumber prices normalize?



## softdown (Apr 30, 2021)

*When will we quit taking dates to the lumber dept when we want to take them to someplace expensive?

All jokes aside now - prices are ridiculous.*


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## northmanlogging (Apr 30, 2021)

softdown said:


> *When will we quit taking dates to the lumber dept when we want to take them to someplace expensive?
> 
> All jokes aside now - prices are ridiculous.*


When demand is met by production and more importantly transportation, hopefully not anytime soon.


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## lone wolf (May 1, 2021)

softdown said:


> *When will we quit taking dates to the lumber dept when we want to take them to someplace expensive?
> 
> All jokes aside now - prices are ridiculous.*


A good while after the Covid scare is over when they get caught up.


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## cookies (May 1, 2021)

there is not a shortage of raw materials, labor or transportation...the lumber mills are in kahoots on the inflated prices not the stores. The looming housing bubble and economy down turn will crash the prices but not before the lumber mill corporations bank billions in profits.


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## northmanlogging (May 1, 2021)

cookies said:


> there is not a shortage of raw materials, labor or transportation...the lumber mills are in kahoots on the inflated prices not the stores. The looming housing bubble and economy down turn will crash the prices but not before the lumber mill corporations bank billions in profits.


Go ahead and find a flat bed truck to haul lumber. Then find a driver willing to pull 14hr days 6 days a week from here to florida and back again. 
While your at it find about 3000 trained and ready employees that can run a head rig, debarker, green chain, grade lumber, millwrights, and a few forman to run the show nights and weekends. 
And thats just the mill side of things.

Every mill around here is hiring, and they have been for YEARS. 
Every trucking outfit is hiring " " " " " " 

Now couple that with the housing market going completely ape S, not to mention all the projects put on hold durring covid lockdown, with all the projects that are regularly scheduled. As well as the middle class being largely stuck on work from home, staring at that ugly fence/deck/needed office etc. 

It's simple economics you just need to pay attention to the factors.


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## Husky Man (May 1, 2021)

As far as Transportation, there ain’t no driver shortage, and I am, and have been a driver for 33 years 

What there IS, is a PAY SHORTAGE, if the pay is right, you will have as many drivers as you want.

Yep, prices are ridiculous on a lot of things, and drivers want Nice Things as much as anyone else, pay them enough that they can have some of those Nice Things themselves, and you will have no “Driver Shortage”

Adding to the “Driver Shortage” is all the BS Talk about how trucks will be driving themselves within the next 5 years, and that we won’t NEED Truck Drivers anymore (Dayum, I wish that my AS emojis were working).

Having been in the industry over 3 Decades, I don’t believe that NONSENSE, I figure that I have about 12-14 years left in my career, and I don’t consider “Self Driving Trucks” to be a factor at all in the time that I have left working.

I can see though that someone gullible enough to BELIEVE that BS, wouldn’t want to get into a career that has such a Short life expectancy 

So, PLEASE keep Scaring away any potential fresh blood for the industry, it definitely helps keep the Wages up for those of us with Experience, and who are willing to Work.

The Good Paying jobs ARE out there for those Qualified, where else are you going to make 100K on a High School Diploma?

The ones that can’t find drivers, are the ones that aren’t willing to pay for their drivers.

Good Drivers aren’t Cheap,
And Cheap Drivers aren’t Good 

If you think that Good Drivers are Expensive, wait until you see just how Expensive a $18/hour driver is when you get the Repair Bills on a $150,000 tractor and $50-100,000 trailers 

Doug


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## northmanlogging (May 1, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> As far as Transportation, there ain’t no driver shortage, and I am, and have been a driver for 33 years
> 
> What there IS, is a PAY SHORTAGE, if the pay is right, you will have as many drivers as you want.
> 
> ...


cough, and the super trucker has arrived.

cool you drive truck, guess what, so do I, I do because I can't find anybody that can drive without getting tickets, stop doing drugs, pass a physical, all while not getting me killed through stupidity.

take a good look around, lots of trucks yeah, what are they hauling?
certainly isn't lumber.

yet EVERY major trucking company has been hiring for literally decades, so what is it that keeps up this driver shortage?, isn't money otr can pay very well, but you have to show up, most dont.

local drivers, especially union drivers, make bank, annnd they get to stay close to home, and generally a shop, yet they to are in demand? why could that possibly be.

furthermore, not just mills and trucking are hiring around here, everyone is, yet no ones applying?

maybe, just maybe, we need to pay people better
or maybe there just isn't enough people?


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## Husky Man (May 1, 2021)

Awe c’mon Northman, I have always shown you and your profession Respect, I’m no “Super Trucker” I don’t sit with the air seat bottomed out, shifting with a stick above my ears, I don’t have a fake “Train Horn”, or those ridiculous fiberglass fenders that make it impossible to chain up the tractor.

My first 14 years, were with a food service company delivering to Arctic Circle, Burger King, Burgerville, Wendy’s and Arby’s all over OR, WA, Western ID and Northern Californicated. Then 14 years of driving for the foam plant to OR, WA, ID and UT, then in 2016, the plant was sold and the new company used a National Logistics Company for their transportation needs, that company recruited me to stay on dedicated to the foam plant. The foam plant closed in April of 2020, and I am now a “Pool Driver “ for the logistics company. I have my Doubles/Triples, Tank and Haz-Mat. In the last year I have pulled 40/20 flatbed, 35/27’s with groceries, and tires for different accounts, box trucks for tele-comm deliveries, and right now I am in Medford, OR doing Auto Parts deliveries.
I have a lot of experience in many types of trucks, I go where I am needed to get the job done, but the term “Super Trucker” is Insulting, and I believe that you know that 

either OTR, suddenly started paying better, or we have different opinions of what doing well is, I have never run OTR, but the OTR drivers that I have talked with, sure didn’t make it sound all that lucrative, especially considering how much time they spend away from Family and Home. OTR drivers are definitely under paid for their working conditions 

I don’t recall how long you have been in your industry, but as I remember, it has been a Dayumed long time, I Respect that. I have been in my profession for a dayumed long time, but evidently that doesn’t deserve the same respect 

Doug


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## catbuster (May 2, 2021)

Dude, you need to get that local deliveries & over the road, which is what I’m presuming OTR means, is a totally different ballgame than hauling logs or moving equipment.

Log haulers are up and moving quite frankly too damn early in the morning trying to get loads to a mill before the rest of the logging crew is on site so they can stay the hell out of the way, which is especially critical when somebody’s running a high lead crew on a landing the size of a postage stamp.

Then, the drivers have to make it up up or down shitty little switchback roads whicn are gravel on a good day, and did I mention they’re usually heavy? I don’t mean like a reefer trailer over a dry van, I mean like cramming the truck in 3 under on an 18 speed with the jake on high and still riding the service brake a little to not gain speed. Ten speeds aren’t really enough in this world. Big cajones and a high level of skill are required to drive logs or move logging equipment, especially where Matt is located. 

I’m not hot on calling anybody a super trucker, but the fact is that your posts suggest that you are ignorant of the specifics of the job. It doesn’t mean for one second you’re a bad driver, however finding drivers to haul logs or any other specialty load is pretty hard.


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## windthrown (May 2, 2021)

cookies said:


> there is not a shortage of raw materials, labor or transportation...the lumber mills are in kahoots on the inflated prices not the stores. The looming housing bubble and economy down turn will crash the prices but not before the lumber mill corporations bank billions in profits.


Yep, You nailed it. Loggers, land owners, truckers and Home Depot are not making any more money off these high prices. Log prices now are about as low as they have ever been if you factor for inflation. Its the mills. Just look at the profits and the stock prices of the likes of GP and Weyerehauser. They are absolutely through the roof. They are also the greedy sods marking up the lumber prices and making the fat profits, along with Wall Street.


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## Lee192233 (May 2, 2021)

I think another factor to consider is all the "free" money the feds printed for the Covid relief packages. Throw a couple natural disasters in and there's a perfect storm for inflated prices.


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## slowp (May 2, 2021)

It's called capitalism and free market. Prices go up as long as people will pay them. Profits are the most important thing in the world in our country. Must pay the stockholders their dividends, and some of us are stockholders in various stuff. It's how our economy works. To change that would be considered evil and unAmerican. 

If you were a lumber mill, wouldn't you be charging as much as you possibly could?


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## lone wolf (May 2, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> I think another factor to consider is all the "free" money the feds printed for the Covid relief packages. Throw a couple natural disasters in and there's a perfect storm for inflated prices.


Free money at the cost of inflation!


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## dogone (May 2, 2021)

Finding people to work! An eternal problem these days. Farmers have many problems similar to logging and trucking.
Just finding someone who will show up is just the start. Finding someone with half a brain is the next problem.
Money is a factor but $100 an hour won’t get you an employee 10 times better than a $10 employee.


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## Den (May 2, 2021)

slowp said:


> It's called capitalism and free market. Prices go up as long as people will pay them. Profits are the most important thing in the world in our country. Must pay the stockholders their dividends, and some of us are stockholders in various stuff. It's how our economy works. To change that would be considered evil and unAmerican.
> 
> If you were a lumber mill, wouldn't you be charging as much as you possibly could?



Bill Gates has taken your advice. Anti-trust laws don't apply to him, so he might as well buy/rule the world. He's been purchasing hundreds of thousands of acres of land at an alarming rate... and not just farm land... forest as well.

Weyerhauser, Cascade(Gates subsidiary), etc., etc., they all might as well purchase all of the land and hoard as much of the wealth as they can. It's important to keep us peasants housed in our cubicles in one central location. (we'll all be in cubicles soon, so don't get uppity if you own land) !!!

That's why they say its good to have a business man for president. Capitalists can then have favorable legislation/laws which allow them to come into an area, and within a decade, own everything. A business man will keep parlaying money into investments over and over until he squeezes everyone out of existence. Its the American way.

Concentrating the world's wealth into the hands of a select few. It's the American way... capitalism. 
You know, like if I see you are struggling financially because your beautiful wife has been struck with a terrible illness... "shazam" here's my chance to come a side-shufflin up your driveway, with a big greasy smile, hussy up to you, swoop in and buy all of your stuff for pennies, and act like I'm helping you. You know, capitalism at its best.

.


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## dmb2613 (May 2, 2021)

When the democrats are not in power things will get better


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## Den (May 2, 2021)

dmb2613 said:


> When the democrats are not in power things will get better



At this point, the various country's around the world are run by businesses and wealthy folk (puppet masters), not political parties.


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## northmanlogging (May 3, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> Awe c’mon Northman, I have always shown you and your profession Respect, I’m no “Super Trucker” I don’t sit with the air seat bottomed out, shifting with a stick above my ears, I don’t have a fake “Train Horn”, or those ridiculous fiberglass fenders that make it impossible to chain up the tractor.
> 
> My first 14 years, were with a food service company delivering to Arctic Circle, Burger King, Burgerville, Wendy’s and Arby’s all over OR, WA, Western ID and Northern Californicated. Then 14 years of driving for the foam plant to OR, WA, ID and UT, then in 2016, the plant was sold and the new company used a National Logistics Company for their transportation needs, that company recruited me to stay on dedicated to the foam plant. The foam plant closed in April of 2020, and I am now a “Pool Driver “ for the logistics company. I have my Doubles/Triples, Tank and Haz-Mat. In the last year I have pulled 40/20 flatbed, 35/27’s with groceries, and tires for different accounts, box trucks for tele-comm deliveries, and right now I am in Medford, OR doing Auto Parts deliveries.
> I have a lot of experience in many types of trucks, I go where I am needed to get the job done, but the term “Super Trucker” is Insulting, and I believe that you know that
> ...


Super trucker is an insult, but it shouldn't be offensive unless you feel called out. 

Seeing the world behind the wheel of a truck doesn't make you wise, doesn't matter how many miles you travel if 90% of them are Freeway, more so if its dedicated routes. 
OTR can pay well, but like I said you have to show up and get your loads, most do not, some do and then blow money on rediculous crap like 16' shift levers, and 3' tall visors, then complain about not making any money. Others get it, put that money into a reliable truck, then continue to get it, you won't hear them talking about it cause they are busy getting on with the getting it, instead of squatting at the nearest watering hole to a Pilot/FlyingJ blowing what little money they did make on brewskies with the other broke drivers. 

Spent most of my childhood living in or near truck stops, I've heard all the boring stories about underpay, knocking out the local drugie/biker/redneck/farmer gangs, and backing down an alley at 2am with one working brake light, by the same types of people for over 40 years... its a snooze fest of epic proportions, and most of its lies anyway. 

Whats the going rate for OTR these days? $.54 a mile 700mi a day $378 a day IF you do your job right, more if you can get a long freeway run, $2268 per week, or in laymans terms $37.80 an hour, which is about what folks make at the Big Boeing, wich is pretty damned good money for farting in someone elses seats. 

If you wan't to go O-O I hear the pay per mile is closer to $2.50... believe me fuel and tires doesn't make up that much of the difference.

Anyway, I kind of apologize for the rant, but truckers irritate the **** out of me. 

As for the rest of this thread, its gone entirely political and therefore mostly hot air redirected from an overpaid windbag.


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## northmanlogging (May 3, 2021)

What does separate those that can hack it and those that can't with trucks is an actual ability to self start, and discipline in time management, driving the trucks is the easy part, damned things handle better then my PowerSmoke or even the war Dept beloved Volvo, Ride better too. 

But like I said you have to show up, dispatch isn't stupid, if they need a reliable driver to show up and get a load moved, they aint calling timmy thats been late to the last 4 pickups and 7 drop offs, timmy might not get a load for a week or more, Thats that bit about showing up that I mentioned earlier. Most folks when left to their own devises will end up ****ing off 20 hours a day, rather then actually getting any work done. 
Its a lot easier to work at O'rielly's and make $16 an hour to hand out the wrong parts, but all you have to do is clock in on time, at the same place everyday.


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 3, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> As far as Transportation, there ain’t no driver shortage, and I am, and have been a driver for 33 years
> 
> What there IS, is a PAY SHORTAGE, if the pay is right, you will have as many drivers as you want.
> 
> ...


$18/hr is more than many drivers make.
You'd need to be in the .70+ cpm area to be over that


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## Husky Man (May 3, 2021)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> $18/hr is more than many drivers make.
> You'd need to be in the .70+ cpm area to be over that


Maybe driving in the woods, you would be driving that slow. At 70/CPM 30 MPH is $21/hour. In my area, the local Estes LTL yard is advertising linehaul at 65/CPM with drivers annual average being $95-120K

I have read about the cost of living being much higher in Alaska, I can’t imagine any decent Class “A” driver working for $18/hr there.

Doug


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## Lee192233 (May 3, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> Maybe driving in the woods, you would be driving that slow. At 70/CPM 30 MPH is $21/hour. In my area, the local Estes LTL yard is advertising linehaul at 65/CPM with drivers annual average being $95-120K
> 
> I have read about the cost of living being much higher in Alaska, I can’t imagine any decent Class “A” driver working for $18/hr there.
> 
> Doug


You guys get paid better than in WI.


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## northmanlogging (May 3, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> You guys get paid better than in WI.
> View attachment 904800


Sure those aren't starting wages, with training included? All the big outfits Swift, Matsons, BrownLine pay crap for the first 6 months to upwards of 2 years, since they are taking a huge hit to their insurance hiring inexperienced drivers, annnd offering on the road training. So it makes a great deal of sense to not pay top dollar for an absolute newb. 

However once you have been with one of these companies long enough to get off probation, the rates do go up.


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## Husky Man (May 3, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> You guys get paid better than in WI.
> View attachment 904800


The I-5 corridor between Salem,OR through Portland,OR/Vancouver,WA and up past the Seattle,WA areas seems to command higher wages than many areas, some with higher costs of living indexes.

A week ago, I met a Stockton,CA pool driver for a trailer trade, and I was surprised at what our company pays it’s drivers there, he was $6/hr less than our Portland and Seattle based pool drivers. In CA.,they do get double time after 10 hours on duty per day. Their time and a half after 8/hrs a day, works out the same as our time and a half after 40 hrs for the week. The only time that really matters is a short week like Thanksgiving, the old company that owned the foam plant paid us on the CA, rules and if I worked 3/12 hour days, I made 6 hours OT, without going over 40 for the week.

Doug


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## Lee192233 (May 3, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Sure those aren't starting wages, with training included? All the big outfits Swift, Matsons, BrownLine pay crap for the first 6 months to upwards of 2 years, since they are taking a huge hit to their insurance hiring inexperienced drivers, annnd offering on the road training. So it makes a great deal of sense to not pay top dollar for an absolute newb.
> 
> However once you have been with one of these companies long enough to get off probation, the rates do go up.


I see. That may be the case. I admit I didn't fully research it. Around here people consider it rude to talk about salaries so I've never asked my truck driver friends what they make.


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## Husky Man (May 3, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> I see. That may be the case. I admit I didn't fully research it. Around here people consider it rude to talk about salaries so I've never asked my truck driver friends what they make.


It just depends on who you are talking to, and how well you know them. There are people that I won’t bring the subject up with, and others that will broach the subject with me. Within the same company, it isn’t as awkward, with most other drivers, but a few that won’t discuss it. It does come up a bit more, if a driver is considering transferring to another location.

That, and well there really isn’t too much that drivers won’t talk and/or BEOTCH (Female Dog) about. Don’t get us started on Politics, most of us could SOLVE this Country’s Problems in a week, if we were President (BIG GRIN)

Doug


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## Lee192233 (May 3, 2021)

Wisconsin nice is a thing. We're too nice for our own good sometimes. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. We wouldn't want to hurt our boss's feelings by asking for a raise.  It's probably more the rural/small town population that is that way. Can't speak for the big city people.


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## softdown (May 3, 2021)

....and lumber prices turned into an OTR trucker pay tutorial. Interesting nonetheless. 

I was pretty impressed when one trucker said he delivered to Arctic Circle though. Sounded like real adventure.


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## Lee192233 (May 3, 2021)

softdown said:


> ....and lumber prices turned into an OTR trucker pay tutorial. Interesting nonetheless.
> 
> I was pretty impressed when one trucker said he delivered to Arctic Circle though. Sounded like real adventure.


Sorry for clogging up your thread with off topic posts. I really hope we can get back to more "normal" costs for building materials soon.


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## softdown (May 3, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> Sorry for clogging up your thread with off topic posts. I really hope we can get back to more "normal" costs for building materials soon.


I don't mind at all. Biden #@#^! by the way.


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## Husky Man (May 3, 2021)

softdown said:


> ....and lumber prices turned into an OTR trucker pay tutorial. Interesting nonetheless.
> 
> I was pretty impressed when one trucker said he delivered to Arctic Circle though. Sounded like real adventure.


Hard to feel nuances on line, if you’re not familiar with them, Arctic Circle is a Restaurant Chain, that is based in Utah.

There used to be more, but we still have 2 in Oregon and 1 in Washington State left 

I apologize for the Thread Drift.

Yep, delivering to THE Arctic Circle, would be an Adventure, with any Luck, I could also get a delivery to the North Pole, and hand deliver my Christmas List in Person!!!

Doug


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## northmanlogging (May 4, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> I see. That may be the case. I admit I didn't fully research it. Around here people consider it rude to talk about salaries so I've never asked my truck driver friends what they make.


See I think its foolish to not discuss wages, its grounds for getting fired in machine shops around here... (note: I've been fired from as many or more then I quit from... cause I tend to mouth off if you haven't noticed lol)

The bosses don't want anyone comparing notes, so its frowned on, and the ass kissers go along with it, thinking they are getting paid more then everyone else...

Wages are a great big con job anyway, start your own show and keep all (well most) of the money you earn for the company.


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 4, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> Maybe driving in the woods, you would be driving that slow. At 70/CPM 30 MPH is $21/hour. In my area, the local Estes LTL yard is advertising linehaul at 65/CPM with drivers annual average being $95-120K
> 
> I have read about the cost of living being much higher in Alaska, I can’t imagine any decent Class “A” driver working for $18/hr there.
> 
> Doug


You aren't factoring in wait times at shippers, receivers, scales, fuel, traffic, weather, etc, etc.

Average 2500 miles a week, at 65 cpm that's "in theory" around 75k. But you'd be working at least 14hr days, 7 days a week, so 5100 hrs. Or about $15/hr.
Here you can be on duty 20hrs a day, drive for 15.
L48 is 11hrs driving, 14hrs on duty.

Many outfits pay in the 45 cpm area too.

Many truckers make near minimum wage if the hours spent working are factored.


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 4, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Sure those aren't starting wages, with training included? All the big outfits Swift, Matsons, BrownLine pay crap for the first 6 months to upwards of 2 years, since they are taking a huge hit to their insurance hiring inexperienced drivers, annnd offering on the road training. So it makes a great deal of sense to not pay top dollar for an absolute newb.
> 
> However once you have been with one of these companies long enough to get off probation, the rates do go up.


After 1 year Schneider is at around .50cpm. I actually recently hired on with them but they pulled the job out of under me.


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## ChoppyChoppy (May 4, 2021)

Husky Man said:


> Hard to feel nuances on line, if you’re not familiar with them, Arctic Circle is a Restaurant Chain, that is based in Utah.
> 
> There used to be more, but we still have 2 in Oregon and 1 in Washington State left
> 
> ...


Been to both places. Not in a truck though.


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## 2412 (May 4, 2021)

You all seem to think that the home improvement retailers are incapable of increasing their margins.


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## northmanlogging (May 4, 2021)

2412 said:


> You all seem to think that the home improvement retailers are incapable of increasing their margins.


Lumber is a commodity, its value is directly linked to economy, and supply and demand. 

In other words, lumber prices fluctuate daily, same as gold and silver. Prices I get from the mills generally change fist of the month, but they can change at anytime, and for any reason. Lately they have been going up as supply is starting to flat line.


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## Blue Oaks (May 4, 2021)

Home prices are going up, up, up in most parts of the country it seems. At some point the home builders will see profits in building more homes- which will drive up lumber prices.


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## slowp (May 4, 2021)

Also, since some of the logs come from snowy elevations, unless the logger wants to plow snow and work in snow, those units don't get logged until the snow melts. Mills like to go in panic mode in the fall and deck enough logs up to see them through the winter. Those mills may be running low now. 

Some areas have load weight restrictions that go in effect in the early spring. Sometimes, the power in charge might allow hauling to occur at night, when it is much colder and therefore the road hardened up, but that is rare. The haul is shut down until the thaw is over.


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## Huskybill (May 6, 2021)

On the news the prices on new houses is up 30% because of the price increase on lumber. I say make it while you can. The cost of housing is up here anyway. The values are going up. I’m seeing prices climbing $40/$60k increase. Things look like there booming again. Until it crashes or another wave of covid.


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## ArtB (May 6, 2021)

When will lumber prices come down? 
I predict not until Jan 2023, 
Interest rates will be kept low thru next election cycle for purely political reasons. 
Hmm, 50 trillion debt soon, divide by 350 million or so = $143,000 standing debt per person (not per family, per person, so say average of 1/2 million $$ per family. 
Can taxes rise enough to cover that - no. So cover it by inflation circa late 1970s. 
So, sooner or later to slow inflation Fed will raise interest rates, and significantly. As said, I predict early 2023.
Seattle area new houses are pushing 1 million, interest rates go up, not many even $100K/year folks can buy a house, interest payments past their income.
3% goes to say just 5%, interest on 800K goes up to $40k per year, many priced out of the market. 
Lumber prices then enter freefall. 
I'm old enough to have seen it in the early and mid '70's. MBF construction lumber dropped from near $150 to under $50, bought a couple slings of 2x4 in 1977 for 25 cents each. 
Of course, has to collapse a lot more now to get $60 OSB back down to $10.


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## Huskybill (May 8, 2021)

We’re in debt? Print more money?


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## Lee192233 (May 8, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> We’re in debt? Print more money?


Seems to be the answer to keeping the economy propped up. It's not going to be good when the economy finally corrects.


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## Huskybill (May 8, 2021)

Where do you think all this covid payments are coming from? The money to the immigrants?


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## Lee192233 (May 8, 2021)

This is a completely artificially propped up economy. Low interest rates for years, pumping fake easy cash into the economy instead of letting multiple smaller corrections happen. Now I fear hyper inflation and a major economic crash in the next year or two. We can't keep printing money.


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## Marine5068 (May 8, 2021)

cookies said:


> there is not a shortage of raw materials, labor or transportation...the lumber mills are in kahoots on the inflated prices not the stores. The looming housing bubble and economy down turn will crash the prices but not before the lumber mill corporations bank billions in profits.


Actually if you read in depth about it all, It's exactly the opposite of that.
Although the mills haven't increased production over the last year, the ways to get it to market have been hugely affected by lack of and slower transportation that is directly related to Covid19. 
Also the higher-than-usual demand of lumber from everyone at home doing their D.I.Y. projects has the store shelves emptied.
So it's the retailers that have jacked up prices to this level, not the mills or transport companies.
Thanks Home Depot.


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## softdown (May 8, 2021)

Marine5068 said:


> Actually if you read in depth about it all, It's exactly the opposite of that.
> Although the mills haven't increased production over the last year, the ways to get it to market have been hugely affected by lack of and slower transportation that is directly related to Covid19.
> Also the higher-than-usual demand of lumber from everyone at home doing their D.I.Y. projects has the store shelves emptied.
> So it's the retailers that have jacked up prices to this level, not the mills or transport companies.
> Thanks Home Depot.


It is not the retailers. They do cost plus pricing as a rule. If HD decided to take advantage then people would flock to 84 Lumber or Lowes etc.

It could be GP and Werehauser acting in unison though. It is likely a combination of factors that have been mentioned.


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## Ted Jenkins (May 8, 2021)

In my business prices have more than doubled in the last five years. I expect prices to double again in the next two years. Good hard wood will exceed a thousand easily. Few people working and demand is increasing so what is next. Welfare and unemployment need to crash first. I have a customer who has been working for more than two years at home. He says he does not care what cost are but his fire place will be roaring all winter. He spent almost two thousand to keep his fire place going and we did not even have a cold winter. So it appears that inflation is healthy and will run away again as long as liberalism is healthy. I also expect a correction or economic crash. Thanks


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## Den (May 10, 2021)

ArtB said:


> When will lumber prices come down?
> I predict not until Jan 2023,
> Interest rates will be kept low thru next election cycle for purely political reasons.
> Hmm, 50 trillion debt soon, divide by 350 million or so = $143,000 standing debt per person (not per family, per person, so say average of 1/2 million $$ per family.
> ...





Lee192233 said:


> This is a completely artificially propped up economy. Low interest rates for years, pumping fake easy cash into the economy instead of letting multiple smaller corrections happen. Now I fear hyper inflation and a major economic crash in the next year or two. We can't keep printing money.



ArtB and Lee192233, your thought's are absolutely correct.
I've said for many years... American citizen's simply cannot pay back this national debt. How many trillion will be spent before the entire system implodes?
Also, I heard a report about two weeks ago; there is a petition being circulated by state representative's and organization's, in about 22 states, calling for every adult in America over the age of 18 to receive $2000.00 per month as a guaranteed wage/stipend for doing nothing. Utter madness.


.


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## Wow (May 11, 2021)

Lee192233 said:


> Wisconsin nice is a thing. We're too nice for our own good sometimes. We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. We wouldn't want to hurt our boss's feelings by asking for a raise.  It's probably more the rural/small town population that is that way. Can't speak for the big city people.


I loved visiting Wisconsin. I hiked the Baraboo Cliffs near Devil's lake. I was up there for a week. By air from Shreveport La. to Madison. Auto to DeForest where I was escorted around. That's been a lot of years ago. The people were amazingly nice. I still have friends I met that week. I was the officiating minister/ shaman preforming a wedding all my expenses paid. The bride's mother was Lakota, her Father Catholic and German. Because I was the only person willing to include both cultures in the ceremony ( and actually knew how) due to being raised in both cultures (I'm mixed) they requested me. I'll never forget the town Rio. They called it RI-o and politely corrected me when I pronounced it Re-o as in Spanish. In Spanish the "I" can have an eh sound. E.G. Hay in Spanish is like Ah-E, means "there is". E.G. hay un rio, There is a river. The bride had dark black eyes, long black hair and was beautiful. A young lady maybe 20 ish so sweet and pleasent. Her mom was tall and beautiful long black hair dark eyes. A beauty. She reminded me of Sher. It's a wonderful family to be around. I sure enjoyed my visit. I think it would be a nice place to live but my age and deep roots means I'll stay here where I'm already a part of this land. One day in the not to distant future I'll walk these woods day and night, requiring neither food nor rest. I'll float into tree tops and swim to the bottom of streams and lakes. I'll see this world in ways this flesh can't. I'll be back in Alaska if I choose. I'll see the world and travel through the stars. Frankly I'd be bored locked behind pearly gates, walking on streets of gold listening to harp music. , .
Me I'm gonna travel. Watch my great great grand kids grow up. Then again, maybe it all myth. Either way it makes growing old easier. Maybe I'll visit Wisconsin again. Blessings.


----------



## Lee192233 (May 11, 2021)

Wow said:


> I loved visiting Wisconsin. I hiked the Baraboo Cliffs near Devil's lake. I was up there for a week. By air from Shreveport La. to Madison. Auto to DeForest where I was escorted around. That's been a lot of years ago. The people were amazingly nice. I still have friends I met that week. I was the officiating minister/ shaman preforming a wedding all my expenses paid. The bride's mother was Lakota, her Father Catholic and German. Because I was the only person willing to include both cultures in the ceremony ( and actually knew how) due to being raised in both cultures (I'm mixed) they requested me. I'll never forget the town Rio. They called it RI-o and politely corrected me when I pronounced it Re-o as in Spanish. In Spanish the "I" can have an eh sound. E.G. Hay in Spanish is like Ah-E, means "there is". E.G. hay un rio, There is a river. The bride had dark black eyes, long black hair and was beautiful. A young lady maybe 20 ish so sweet and pleasent. Her mom was tall and beautiful long black hair dark eyes. A beauty. She reminded me of Sher. It's a wonderful family to be around. I sure enjoyed my visit. I think it would be a nice place to live but my age and deep roots means I'll stay here where I'm already a part of this land. One day in the not to distant future I'll walk these woods day and night, requiring neither food nor rest. I'll float into tree tops and swim to the bottom of streams and lakes. I'll see this world in ways this flesh can't. I'll be back in Alaska if I choose. I'll see the world and travel through the stars. Frankly I'd be bored locked behind pearly gates, walking on streets of gold listening to harp music. , .
> Me I'm gonna travel. Watch my great great grand kids grow up. Then again, maybe it all myth. Either way it makes growing old easier. Maybe I'll visit Wisconsin again. Blessings.


Guten morgen. Wie Gehts? That's about the extent of my German. I'm 75% German with the rest being English and Irish. My wife is 100% German. My dad's family spoke German on the farm until he was around six years old. 

Thanks for the nice post. I'm glad you enjoyed Wisconsin. I've lived in a 25 mile radius my whole 41 years and I wouldn't have it any other way. There are lots more beautiful places but not a lot with the combination of outdoor activities we have here. I also need the seasons. Every one is important to me. Maybe my view on winter will change as I get older but I still can't imagine leaving. 
Thanks again,
Lee


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## Den (May 11, 2021)

Wow said:


> I loved visiting Wisconsin. I hiked the Baraboo Cliffs near Devil's lake. I was up there for a week. By air from Shreveport La. to Madison. Auto to DeForest where I was escorted around. That's been a lot of years ago. The people were amazingly nice. I still have friends I met that week. I was the officiating minister/ shaman preforming a wedding all my expenses paid. The bride's mother was Lakota, her Father Catholic and German. Because I was the only person willing to include both cultures in the ceremony ( and actually knew how) due to being raised in both cultures (I'm mixed) they requested me. I'll never forget the town Rio. They called it RI-o and politely corrected me when I pronounced it Re-o as in Spanish. In Spanish the "I" can have an eh sound. E.G. Hay in Spanish is like Ah-E, means "there is". E.G. hay un rio, There is a river. The bride had dark black eyes, long black hair and was beautiful. A young lady maybe 20 ish so sweet and pleasent. Her mom was tall and beautiful long black hair dark eyes. A beauty. She reminded me of Sher. It's a wonderful family to be around. I sure enjoyed my visit. I think it would be a nice place to live but my age and deep roots means I'll stay here where I'm already a part of this land. One day in the not to distant future I'll walk these woods day and night, requiring neither food nor rest. I'll float into tree tops and swim to the bottom of streams and lakes. I'll see this world in ways this flesh can't. I'll be back in Alaska if I choose. I'll see the world and travel through the stars. Frankly I'd be bored locked behind pearly gates, walking on streets of gold listening to harp music. , .
> Me I'm gonna travel. Watch my great great grand kids grow up. Then again, maybe it all myth. Either way it makes growing old easier. Maybe I'll visit Wisconsin again. Blessings.



Okay, great looking friendly American Indian women, with long dark hair and dark eyes. 
I'm immediately going to log off of Arboristsite, Google a map of Wisconsin showing where Rio is, and prepare the car for a trip to Rio. I'm single... I can do this.

.


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## slowp (May 12, 2021)

Den said:


> ArtB and Lee192233, your thought's are absolutely correct.
> I've said for many years... American citizen's simply cannot pay back this national debt. How many trillion will be spent before the entire system implodes?
> Also, I heard a report about two weeks ago; there is a petition being circulated by state representative's and organization's, in about 22 states, calling for every adult in America over the age of 18 to receive $2000.00 per month as a guaranteed wage/stipend for doing nothing. Utter madness.
> 
> ...


Not. The debt seems to be reduced when we have a certain party that is in office. That party is the one that is accused of raising taxes, and they do, but the debt goes down. Then, the other party gets voted in and they cut taxes for some people and entities, start wars, and loot the government, and the debt starts going up again. Look at the past. And yes, inflation went up in the 70s. Remember the oil embargo and the gas shortages? Oil prices shot up so the price of everything else had to go up because of transportation costs. There was even a shortage of sugar for some reason. I suspect greed paid a part in some of the "shortages". Let me see, Nixon and Ford were in power at that time. Look it up.

This is getting into politics which some on here cannot seem to avoid, always blaming things on liberals. Well, hate to tell you this, but we get what we vote for and right now, the people elected the folks you hate. I don't, by the way. Now, to blame lumber prices on evil liberals is pretty childish. I expect the mills are going to try to ramp up production if people can get vaccinated and Covid slows down. It has nothing to do with a guaranteed income, which some of you might be appreciative for later in life after your job is mechanized and you are redundant. But, I'm straying from the lumber topic. 
Wish we could at least have this page free of the political venom.


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## Lee192233 (May 12, 2021)

slowp said:


> Not. The debt seems to be reduced when we have a certain party that is in office. That party is the one that is accused of raising taxes, and they do, but the debt goes down. Then, the other party gets voted in and they cut taxes for some people and entities, start wars, and loot the government, and the debt starts going up again. Look at the past. And yes, inflation went up in the 70s. Remember the oil embargo and the gas shortages? Oil prices shot up so the price of everything else had to go up because of transportation costs. There was even a shortage of sugar for some reason. I suspect greed paid a part in some of the "shortages". Let me see, Nixon and Ford were in power at that time. Look it up.
> 
> This is getting into politics which some on here cannot seem to avoid, always blaming things on liberals. Well, hate to tell you this, but we get what we vote for and right now, the people elected the folks you hate. I don't, by the way. Now, to blame lumber prices on evil liberals is pretty childish. I expect the mills are going to try to ramp up production if people can get vaccinated and Covid slows down. It has nothing to do with a guaranteed income, which some of you might be appreciative for later in life after your job is mechanized and you are redundant. But, I'm straying from the lumber topic.
> Wish we could at least have this page free of the political venom.


I have zero trust in the federal government. Both parties are evil in their own special ways and both have screwed up the economy. I have very little love for an entity that forcibly takes too much of my money and then spends it in ways I don't agree with. No more political posts from me. Sorry OP.


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## slowp (May 13, 2021)

This appeared on my facebook page. The Hampton explanation. https://www.hamptonlumber.com/unpac...uiKU3AyUPFSvQ0qiFBami1b7tGflT2xTpC8TskWwjyzRE


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## northmanlogging (May 13, 2021)

slowp said:


> This appeared on my facebook page. The Hampton explanation. https://www.hamptonlumber.com/unpac...uiKU3AyUPFSvQ0qiFBami1b7tGflT2xTpC8TskWwjyzRE


Before the uninformed conspiracy theorists join in...

"why should we believe what the mills have to say, the mills are choking production to drive up prices"

Or maybe you can take what someone has to say at face value, do some critical thinking, connect the dots with a GLOBAL PANDEMIC, then surmise the maybe they ain't lying to you.


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## Lee192233 (May 13, 2021)

Perfect storm of many factors....


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## frank_ (May 14, 2021)

same in the uk now, no cement available even tho the production is up 30% on last year
quotes from builders not guaranteed on materials cost
British steel are taking no new orders


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## Wow (May 14, 2021)

Then it's working. When all the economies crash they (?) Take over. Did someone say, new world order!


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## northmanlogging (May 15, 2021)

Wow said:


> Then it's working. When all the economies crash they (?) Take over. Did someone say, new world order!


care for some grape flavor aid?


----------



## northmanlogging (May 15, 2021)

Who exactly is this mystical "THEY" anyway. the "Iluminati" "knights Templar" "Masons" "Elks" "JW's" the "Billionairs" 


Be specific please, call them out, so we know exactly who to be on the look out for.


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## slowp (May 16, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Who exactly is this mystical "THEY" anyway. the "Iluminati" "knights Templar" "Masons" "Elks" "JW's" the "Billionairs"
> 
> 
> Be specific please, call them out, so we know exactly who to be on the look out for.


THEY can't reveal who THEY is because it would require a bit of research and research is hard to do. I find that people who pass around all these dire warnings and conspiracy theories are just too lazy to do any, even basic, fact checking. Note that their "facts" seldom have references cited and if they do, it is some obscure self proclaimed youtube expert. Much easier for THEM not to try to figure out what THEY are talking about. 

As for Wisconsin? I lived in the Finlander part of the state. Lots of folks of Finland and Swedish ancestry. It was a good place with good libraries and schools and things to do. Don't know if it is still that way. I hope it is. That part of the state was pretty progressive which might be why it was so nice. Winter was no worse than it used to be in the part of Warshington where I grew up. Summer was not so nice in Up Nort but I would go to the big lake and cool off. The locals thought I was crazy to do that but I grew up playing in glacier fed lakes so it felt right to be bobbing around in Lake Superior. 

Now, back on topic sort of, there was a post in a local forum wanting to know why the local mill isn't rebuilt and running. The poster indicated that a lot of people could get employed. They don't understand about computerized mills and how hiring as few humans as possible is a factor. Not that we have any timber left around here either. One commenter was mad about Canada cutting our trees. That shows a good understanding of the situation. (sarcasm). 

Last week I took a trip up and over da Nort Cascades highway. Saw 4 loaded log trucks heading west on day two of opening.


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## northmanlogging (May 16, 2021)

slowp said:


> THEY can't reveal who THEY is because it would require a bit of research and research is hard to do. I find that people who pass around all these dire warnings and conspiracy theories are just too lazy to do any, even basic, fact checking. Note that their "facts" seldom have references cited and if they do, it is some obscure self proclaimed youtube expert. Much easier for THEM not to try to figure out what THEY are talking about.
> 
> As for Wisconsin? I lived in the Finlander part of the state. Lots of folks of Finland and Swedish ancestry. It was a good place with good libraries and schools and things to do. Don't know if it is still that way. I hope it is. That part of the state was pretty progressive which might be why it was so nice. Winter was no worse than it used to be in the part of Warshington where I grew up. Summer was not so nice in Up Nort but I would go to the big lake and cool off. The locals thought I was crazy to do that but I grew up playing in glacier fed lakes so it felt right to be bobbing around in Lake Superior.
> 
> ...


Dem trucks are likely headed to Darrington, or SP Burlington

Lake superior, never gives up her dead... Most of them are still at the bottom, intact... Just so's ya's know's, could be part of why folks stared atchya funny. 

Folks seem to forget all the Mills that have closed over the last 30-40 years. Partly from compurerized processing, partly from a lack of available timber, not mind trees, but logs, still lots of trees, but most of it is off limits. 

As for Canada cutting our timber... no... however they do send an awful lot of cut lumber down here, with the very rare barge of oversize Fir logs. 2-3 train loads a day come through loaded mostly with CanFor/Frasier or a few other canadian branded lumber cars, interspersed with a handful of oil cars. And no they taint going to the ports, cause they would of likely stayed in BC for that, they hit Everett and turn East away from the water.


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## slowp (May 16, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Dem trucks are likely headed to Darrington, or SP Burlington
> 
> Lake superior, never gives up her dead... Most of them are still at the bottom, intact... Just so's ya's know's, could be part of why folks stared atchya funny.
> 
> ...


Apparently we are exporting some lumber north. This was reported as seen from near the boundary, which is still closed to most of us.

The Nort Cascades road looks like a long steep grind for log trucks. They weren't setting speed records for their climb. 

Today's happy dog in the woods picture. 


There was actually some loggin' going on today (Sunday) in a campground we drove by. It is probably the whole year's target for the forest as the trees were big for east side junk. Shoulda took a picture of that, I guess.


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## northmanlogging (May 16, 2021)

slowp said:


> Apparently we are exporting some lumber north. This was reported as seen from near the boundary, which is still closed to most of us.
> 
> The Nort Cascades road looks like a long steep grind for log trucks. They weren't setting speed records for their climb.
> 
> ...


yeah hwy20 is a bastard... claims a truck or 2 every year too. But it is the shortest route from say Omak/Chellan to mills on the west side, otherwise they are going all the way down to at least Stevens Pass or worse yet I90, both arguably more suited to trucks, but much much longer hauls.


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## Wow (May 17, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> care for some grape flavor aid?


So just on the News. Space Force Commander fired for being CONSERVATIVE. Yes they hate Freedom of Speech WHEN it's conservative. IF he had been bashing Trump they would have loved him. Have you noticed how Angry and Hateful the idiots, uh! I mean the left is. Did you notice when they have no facts to rebut they Sling insults. This is the mentality of the people who give up their power thinking they will get more for themselves by surrendering more of themselves. I normally don't talk to them because they are not wise enough to hold a mature conversation. Have a great day.


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## Wow (May 17, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Who exactly is this mystical "THEY" anyway. the "Iluminati" "knights Templar" "Masons" "Elks" "JW's" the "Billionairs"
> 
> 
> Be specific please, call them out, so we know exactly who to be on the look out for.


Don't we wish we knew who "They" are. They are the ones who are making all the money. Go into politics and become a multimillionaire. Could it be THEY are part of the "THEY" who are ruining our country. Look at the Democratic party. Ever since THEY got power my money buys LESS. Bidens are or have been in oil. How do the Biden lovers like the inflation. To them I say: Enjoy your new world order and make up excuses and or spew the lies you have been told by fake news to blame Trump for the pain while the cancer inside grows larger.
Have a great day


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## northmanlogging (May 17, 2021)

Who's going as the Kettle this year for Halloween? Cause we already got a crack Pot.


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## Jhenderson (May 17, 2021)

He might be a little harsh but nothing I buy cost the same or less than it did 6 months ago. Who‘s in charge of monetary policy as we speak?


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## northmanlogging (May 17, 2021)

what ya all seem to forget, the Current Pres financial plan won't come into effect until 2022, we are still operating under Trumps plans (or lack there of), Bidens plans for the most parts still have to go through congress/senate and then have set dates to take effect.
I said the same damned thing when Trump took over in 18 and everyone was all giggitty over a booming economy and cheap gas.


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> He might be a little harsh but nothing I buy cost the same or less than it did 6 months ago. Who‘s in charge of monetary policy as we speak?


Sounds like They are.

Our economy is based on "market". As long as you keep on buying and there is a demand, prices will stay the same or go up. That's the way it is. To control prices would be.....some kind of ism, wouldn't it? 

What would your solution be? There's a lot of complaining and finger pointing, but very little in the way of solutions presented here. The local bit has folks wanting Someone (Someone is a form of Them) to rebuild the mill that was shut down and then burned up last year. I guess trees of a merch quality and size will just magically appear?


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## Wow (May 18, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Who's going as the Kettle this year for Halloween? Cause we already got a crack Pot.


As I've stated many times the Left is nasty. They call names and sling poo when facts Trump fiction. A zoo Keeper told me Monkeys do that. He said you can sling it back and just get more on you in an effort to throw more on the monkey. 
This is why I seldom get into conversation with the young immature kids on the left. At 30 I knew everything. At 74 I know what the country was like when Trump was president. I'm not a politician but I can balance a check book. Now, I'll head for cover before the poo slinging starts up.


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> what ya all seem to forget, the Current Pres financial plan won't come into effect until 2022, we are still operating under Trumps plans (or lack there of), Bidens plans for the most parts still have to go through congress/senate and then have set dates to take effect.
> I said the same damned thing when Trump took over in 18 and everyone was all giggitty over a booming economy and cheap gas.


Printing billions of $$$ to hand out has nothing to do with it, eh?


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## lone wolf (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Printing billions of $$$ to hand out has nothing to do with it, eh?


Everything is expensive relatively now. We ain't seen nuthin yet!


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Printing billions of $$$ to hand out has nothing to do with it, eh?


Where do you find this info on amount of money printed?


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## lone wolf (May 18, 2021)

slowp said:


> Where do you find this info on amount of money printed?


Free Free Free ! They are giving it out all over haven't you heard? 1400.00 checks 600.00 a week to be a bum! Billions to other Countries for God only knows what!


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

lone wolf said:


> Free Free Free ! They are giving it out all over haven't you heard? 1400.00 checks 600.00 a week to be a bum! Billions to other Countries for God only knowsBut what!


That is not "printing more money." Where are you acquiring this info? Tell us the site to go to for the correct info that you are spouting off about. 

BACK ON TOPIC, this is a small mill operation that would be more likely to pop up here. There is one tiny mill that I know of that cuts custom lumber in the area. Saw another article on facebook about a guy who found that he could save bucks by buying a small milling operation and milling the lumber himself for his house construction. 





__





TimberWest Magazine -March/April 2021 - Small Log Mills Likely to Play a Big Part in the Future


Forestnet is the home of North America's leading forestry and timber magazines, Logging and Sawmilling Journal and TimberWest Magazine



forestnet.com


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

Wow said:


> As I've stated many times the Left is nasty. They call names and sling poo when facts Trump fiction. A zoo Keeper told me Monkeys do that. He said you can sling it back and just get more on you in an effort to throw more on the monkey.
> This is why I seldom get into conversation with the young immature kids on the left. At 30 I knew everything. At 74 I know what the country was like when Trump was president. I'm not a politician but I can balance a check book. Now, I'll head for cover before the poo slinging starts up.


well the kettle and pot analogy went straight over your head. 


Jhenderson said:


> Printing billions of $$$ to hand out has nothing to do with it, eh?


I don't see inflation as being an issue, at least not the issue with certain commodities being more expensive, If you had paid attention to actual news over the last 4-5 years, there are a number of reasons why certain things are costing more. Many of them are for very real reasons mostly involving lack of labor and transportation. And its been ongoing not just because folks are finally able to afford the rent on unemployment, but also everyone wants to pay starting wages for 5 years experience and a 4 year degree. Trucking has so many loop holes you have to jump through keep a cdl that most folks get scared off, or in reality **** up and loose the chance before it ever occurs to them. Then you have the added issue of CA and a few other states insisting on having emissions friendly trucks, meaning modern trucks, that are expensive, and really not many being made everyday.

Add to that cocktail a half dozen or more major natural disasters, and A GLOBAL PANDEMIC, you get some pretty ****ed up open markets, struggling to get product let alone deliver it. 

Its a conundrum but if you pick it apart it starts making a lot more sense then "the gubamint wants us to be slaves" **** we already are slaves, eat, work, ****, sleep, go in more debt, they got us by the sensitive bits and didn't even have to try. Get past the finger pointing of Conservative vs Liberal, and start paying attention to WHAT happens, WHEN things happen In the first place. Rather then waiting for the talking head to spin it to one side or the other, as the media is so want to do lately.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

Should I add that many of the massive natural disasters over the last 4-5 years, a certain administration has sat on its hands and did nothing to abate... leading to yet more infrastructure issues. 
OR the serious need to address 1000's of failing bridges etc things we've know about for at least 15 years, The "shovel ready" program was a start to fix much of that, and is still benefitting the construction industry, but its really not enough, and was never intended to be enough. 

I can think of 4 bridges off hand that trucks are no longer allowed over just here in my county, more in and around Seattle, a couple of them are completely closed.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

S


lone wolf said:


> Free Free Free ! They are giving it out all over haven't you heard? 1400.00 checks 600.00 a week to be a bum! Billions to other Countries for God only knows what!


Ever wonder where all that L+I money we are forced to give goes? I've paid into for most of my adult life and much of my teenage years, along with millions of other americans over the last 80 years or so, at no time has there been so many folks unemployed that L+I was ever in even the remotest possibility of running out of money. The "system" is working like its supposed to, it was created to prevent another great depression, and has proven its metal several times.

Its literally OUR money, we put in, incase of something like this, its doing its job, and for once L+I isn't ****ing things up for everyone. 

Doesn't mean that I'm not going to make fun of Bill Hilly and his "back injury" that prevents him from lifting even 12oz (while he slams down bud tall boys like a fat kid drinking Tab)


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

slowp said:


> Where do you find this info on amount of money printed?


All you have to do ask Google, bing , etc. The fed upped its initial order in April of 2020 from 5.2 Billion ” notes” to 6.2 Billion “ notes” . That equates to $226 BILLION in cash to cover demand . That demand comes from the infusion of $$$ not in the system by people who cash govt checks . Now realize we‘ve gone from crazy in 2020 to insane inn2021. The fed hasn’t released its request for cash to the public yet for this fiscal year. Realize also this is fiat $$$ . Nothing but a promise to back it up. A promise from people who are far from trustworthy.


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> S
> 
> Ever wonder where all that L+I money we are forced to give goes? I've paid into for most of my adult life and much of my teenage years, along with millions of other americans over the last 80 years or so, at no time has there been so many folks unemployed that L+I was ever in even the remotest possibility of running out of money. The "system" is working like its supposed to, it was created to prevent another great depression, and has proven its metal several times.
> 
> ...


You need to do a little research before posting again. Unemployment is an insurance fund. A state insurance fund. An insurance fund thats broke. The states Borrow Federal $$ when the fund gets tapped out. The $$ paid in are a % of payroll based on a minimum + your history of laying off employees. The Fed prints money ( or an IOU) to lend to the states that have run out of unemployment funds . Unless you’re a lic employer you’ve never paid a penny into unemployment insurance. That’s the employers cost alone. And since you can’t legally lay yourself off you don’t pay on yourself. The govt changed part of that when they closed businesses. If you were shut down you were eligible even though you Never paid into the insurance fund. Another reason they’re printing $$$. As a sole proprietor your not eligible for unemployment under normal circumstances. 
Just so you know, my wife was an accountant for the RI employment office for over 20 years. . It was her job to reconcile the State books with the Fed books. Borrowing goes on daily to keep up with the demand. The amount states are in the red over this foolishness is no secret.


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> All you have to do ask Google, bing , etc. The fed upped its initial order in April of 2020 from 5.2 Billion to 6.2 Billion in cash to cover demand . That demand comes from the infusion of $$$ not in the system by people who cash govt checks . Now realize we‘ve gone from crazy in 2020 to insane inn2021. The fed hasn’t released its request for cash to the public yet for this fiscal year. Realize also this is fiat $$$ . Nothing but a promise to back it up. A promise from people who are far from trustworthy.


And then, how do you choose what to believe from Google, Bing, etc? How do you know the reliability of the site you go to? What is their background? Experience? Education?


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

Does federal reserve.org ring a bell? Straight from the horses mouth. Did you even Bother to look for yourself? No, of course not. You might get information you don’t like.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

well for starters, money to l+I is based on risk of injury as well as record of layoffs, though every state is different.
if RI is bankrupt because of this that falls squarely on RI, to say thats true for every state is foolish. Especially since in some states the unemployment rate is still under 6% and has been for around 12 years

as for printing more money, cash money is a complicated beast, printing 225b is only a drop in the bucket, could be as easily explained by population expansion and normal rates of economic expansion.

now if they were to increase paper money into the trillions, then maybe it would be an indicator of inflation.

besides, most money is digital now anyway, wealth per se is just what ever your bank account says, it's highly unlikely that there is enough cash anywhere to pay everyone if everyone decided to cash out in the next month.

seriously ya all been huffing the same farts and sucking on the flavor aid a little to long, stop and have a short think about what you are saying and hearing, ask yourself A: is it possible and how
B:why
C:what are the motives
D:who does it directly benefit


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

And, that is why mechanized logging has it's upside. Workers are in cabs and not out amongst the stobby stuff. Workers are a bit more responsible than young Bubba who drank too much over the weekend and has brown bottle flu on Monday so doesn't show up, along with half of the crew. 

I was once told that Glenoma was the L&I insurance collecting capital of the world and also a major recreational boat owning area. Doubtful, but adds to a colorful image. Once again, that's just a legend and I have my doubts about it. Aberdeen probably had it beat. All this was in the 1980s when logging was going on every hillside, or so it seemed. 

And, I wasn't the one posting about money being printed, so it wasn't my responsibility to look it up. The one who makes statements and claims them to be factual either posts where their info came from or **** in the real world.


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## slowp (May 18, 2021)

Also, L&I money, in our fair state, don't move here, is connected to how the accident rate is. If you've been out and about where there has been an injury accident, you will hear it mentioned that the company's rates will go up. 

When I last worked, the insurance rates were about the same as the hourly wage. One operator was planning on only using his yarder in Oregon because our fair state, don't move here, had such high rates for yarder operations.


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> well for starters, money to l+I is based on risk of injury as well as record of layoffs, though every state is different.
> if RI is bankrupt because of this that falls squarely on RI, to say thats true for every state is foolish. Especially since in some states the unemployment rate is still under 6% and has been for around 12 years
> 
> as for printing more money, cash money is a complicated beast, printing 225b is only a drop in the bucket, could be as easily explained by population expansion and normal rates of economic expansion.
> ...


Your expertise in the financial world is only exceeded by your knowledge of unemployment. Unemployment ins rates have NOTHING to do with risk. That would be Workman’s Comp. As for the unemployment rate? Anything over 3.5 - 4 % puts the system in a hole. As of the last quarter of 2020, YOUR STATE was charging employers a “ Solvency “ tax on top of their normal % due to the unemployment fund running dry. 
Do yourself a favor and research things before typing. It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> Your expertise in the financial world is only exceeded by your knowledge of unemployment. Unemployment ins rates have NOTHING to do with risk. That would be Workman’s Comp. As for the unemployment rate? Anything over 3.5 - 4 % puts the system in a hole. As of the last quarter of 2020, YOUR STATE was charging employers a “ Solvency “ tax on top of their normal % due to the unemployment fund running dry.
> Do yourself a favor and research things before typing. It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.


Well J, as I mentioned, Here in WA (don't move here), they are one and the same. And if memory serves most states are set up the same way. As for a solvency tax never heard of it, the rates fluctuate every year, largely based on risk of each industry, but also on how shitty an individual employer is. They go up, but they sometimes do in fact go down.

As for the rest of your statement, best take your own advice.


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## Jhenderson (May 18, 2021)

You‘ve admitted your ignorance by not even understanding the solvency tax. It’s an additional fee paid by employers for continuing to employ people. Money out of their pockets, Not Yours, to keep unemployment insurance from going belly up because of the govt expanding coverage and raising payments. Look up your own state employment regs. As I told you, risk plays no part. It’s employer history with a modifier for businesses that traditionally lay off and rehire . Such businesses might include construction or tourism since both are somewhat seasonal. 
Brush up on actual facts, not supposition. Kinda like your “ Facts “ about the AMA that turned out to 100% WRONG.


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## catbuster (May 18, 2021)

“Shovel-ready” is such a ******** term. Even if a project goes design-build like the ORB or the current 265/71 overhaul we have here it still takes time for the minimal planning on those jobs, to acquire ROW, easement, bid the work, award the work, submit items to engineers for approval, procure materials, organize labor and equipment.

Then a job is shovel ready. Unless it’s replacing a bridge deck. Then it’s Bid-Well ready.

Solvency tax is a surcharge tax meant to aid in re-employment. I’ve paid it for a long time across a few states. It’s just part of doing business, I try damn hard to keep my guys busy all year, but if I have to lay them off and it keeps them able to keep UI so be it. Taxes are what they are.


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## sawfun (May 18, 2021)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> You aren't factoring in wait times at shippers, receivers, scales, fuel, traffic, weather, etc, etc.
> 
> Average 2500 miles a week, at 65 cpm that's "in theory" around 75k. But you'd be working at least 14hr days, 7 days a week, so 5100 hrs. Or about $15/hr.
> Here you can be on duty 20hrs a day, drive for 15.
> ...


Well you can drive for TriMet at $15/hour to start and up to $31/hour top pay in three years. Trick is, you gotta be able to put up with a ton of shxt. They are having a hard time getting drivers at that rate that don't quit, wash out, can't pass a drug test, or get in wrecks. I've been doing it for 30 years, and it ain't getting easier.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> You‘ve admitted your ignorance by not even understanding the solvency tax. It’s an additional fee paid by employers for continuing to employ people. Money out of their pockets, Not Yours, to keep unemployment insurance from going belly up because of the govt expanding coverage and raising payments. Look up your own state employment regs. As I told you, risk plays no part. It’s employer history with a modifier for businesses that traditionally lay off and rehire . Such businesses might include construction or tourism since both are somewhat seasonal.
> Brush up on actual facts, not supposition. Kinda like your “ Facts “ about the AMA that turned out to 100% WRONG.


You keep sayin the same ****, and now your bringing up the American Motorcycle Association? on a Forestry forum? (have I talked **** about them? I mean I have but on here?)

EACH STATE HAS ITS OWN RULES FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURRANCE read that again, and again until you figure out how to stop assuming.

All I've said to start this little roe is that the unemployment program works, they got money and will get money without raising inflation, You are the one that insists that my state has the same rules as your state, they don't so get over it already. If it takes employers paying a little more to keep folks out of bread lines and Hoovervilles, I'm gonna call that a win regardless of how we get there.

Meanwhile yes WA does have an employer solvency tax, the current rate is 00000%, so maybe your governor should talk to our governor about not dicking over employers?




__





ESDWAGOV - Annual tax rates







esd.wa.gov


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

catbuster said:


> “Shovel-ready” is such a ******** term. Even if a project goes design-build like the ORB or the current 265/71 overhaul we have here it still takes time for the minimal planning on those jobs, to acquire ROW, easement, bid the work, award the work, submit items to engineers for approval, procure materials, organize labor and equipment.
> 
> Then a job is shovel ready. Unless it’s replacing a bridge deck. Then it’s Bid-Well ready.
> 
> Solvency tax is a surcharge tax meant to aid in re-employment. I’ve paid it for a long time across a few states. It’s just part of doing business, I try damn hard to keep my guys busy all year, but if I have to lay them off and it keeps them able to keep UI so be it. Taxes are what they are.


Shovel read is a dumb term... Though the program is still creating jobs, even with a dumb name.


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## northmanlogging (May 18, 2021)

sawfun said:


> Well you can drive for TriMet at $15/hour to start and up to $31/hour top pay in three years. Trick is, you gotta be able to put up with a ton of shxt. They are having a hard time getting drivers at that rate that don't quit, wash out, can't pass a drug test, or get in wrecks. I've been doing it for 30 years, and it ain't getting easier.


Gettin real close to the heart of the matter there... its always been hard to find good employees, more so if they can't be on drugs, have a good ticker, not be a lousy driver, and to top all that off, show up on time and not **** off all day... Hence... a shortage of trucks and trucking.


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## northmanlogging (May 19, 2021)

oh the ama thing, I remember now, you're still convinced its not a union, or at the very least a trade guild? Which IS a union? An association of professionals that arbitrarily sets rules of employment, and methods of work to be done, and who is allowed to do said work and who for, as well as rates of pay? is that not the definition of a trade union? minus the collective bargaining stuff, cause like its their way or no way now, they control the purse strings as it were, so I guess they've gone beyond union status to what? Organized Crime?


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## Jhenderson (May 19, 2021)

1st the AMA DOESN'T SET PAY! Neither does it make rules for whom anyone can work. Quit lying to bolster your pitiful argument. . 
2 nd, I said last quarter of 2020 for the solvency tax. Pay attention. Next did you look at projections for that tax. It’s projected to be reinstated by YOUR State employment division. 
Each state may have its own rules but I was quoting YOUR STATE RULES. If your going to look at employment regs, look at all of them . Or does that mean you’d need to admit how wrong you are. Reading the drivel and misguided assumptions you post it’s no wonder most folks think people in our business eat dirt and bugger raccoons.


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## Jhenderson (May 19, 2021)

catbuster said:


> “Shovel-ready” is such a ******** term. Even if a project goes design-build like the ORB or the current 265/71 overhaul we have here it still takes time for the minimal planning on those jobs, to acquire ROW, easement, bid the work, award the work, submit items to engineers for approval, procure materials, organize labor and equipment.
> 
> Then a job is shovel ready. Unless it’s replacing a bridge deck. Then it’s Bid-Well ready.
> 
> Solvency tax is a surcharge tax meant to aid in re-employment. I’ve paid it for a long time across a few states. It’s just part of doing business, I try damn hard to keep my guys busy all year, but if I have to lay them off and it keeps them able to keep UI so be it. Taxes are what they are.


To aid re- employment? I thought that was the primary goal of the labor division of each state? Unfortunately your mistaken about the solvency tax. It’s geared towards additional revenue for unemployment benefits that won’t be covered due to the employers business going under. The % varies with the number of business closures . Every employer pays for those who throw in the towel and puts people on unemployment.


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## northmanlogging (May 19, 2021)

Jhenderson said:


> 1st the AMA DOESN'T SET PAY! Neither does it make rules for whom anyone can work. Quit lying to bolster your pitiful argument. .
> 2 nd, I said last quarter of 2020 for the solvency tax. Pay attention. Next did you look at projections for that tax. It’s projected to be reinstated by YOUR State employment division.
> Each state may have its own rules but I was quoting YOUR STATE RULES. If your going to look at employment regs, look at all of them . Or does that mean you’d need to admit how wrong you are. Reading the drivel and misguided assumptions you post it’s no wonder most folks think people in our business eat dirt and bugger raccoons.


Read the link jack ass. Laters.


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## Jhenderson (May 19, 2021)

northmanlogging said:


> Read the link jack ass. Laters.


I did. Did you? “ For all other years the fund will be assessed and solvency surcharge will be adjusted when the fund has less than 7 months benefits as of Sept 30. It’s not in effect as of now but its reestablishment is only a bad assessment away. As I said and you ignored as of the 4 quarter of 2020 your state was charging it.


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