# Pine tree issues



## Multi-G (Jan 2, 2009)

Hello.

I have a mix of pine trees that have been here for a number of years before I purchased the house. 

Some of them did look the best but they all have taken a big turn for the worse. There is a Blue Spruce that was in good shape going into this winter but has lost all of it's needles on the lowest 5ft or so of branches already. They all seem to be doing the same thing. 
A distant neighbor had a fungus kill most of his Scotch Pines, but I did not see any fungus on mine yet. 

Help...... 

Pics 
The one that was nice up until about the last few months.






Another one





Closer





Some along the driveway





More





Something closer





The corner pine closer





Any thoughts? I hate the thought of my windbreak dying 

Thanks


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## mattmc2003 (Jan 2, 2009)

looks like some kind of beetle....


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## S Mc (Jan 3, 2009)

Multi, how long have you lived here? Do you know how this stand would normally look in the winter or is this your first winter? With some of the pines, they may be "normal" and you are just seeing their sparcity of lower limbs because with the leaves gone, the deciduous trees have revealed the trunks more. So I would like to ask some questions to help rule some things out or narrow things down.

How long has the drive been there?

Did you use any de-icing products on it this winter?

Did heavy snow that had de-icing products in it get piled up around any of the trees?

Was a large truck parked there for awhile with his exhaust blowing on the tree? (looking at the spruce)

Did you apply any herbicides/fertilizers to the grass area last year?

Has anything else in the lay of the land been changed, not necessarily just since you got there, but in the last few years?

Bugs generally are secondary issues, they come in on stressed trees. One of the first things we check on trees is to see if they were planted too deep which can result in a less vigorous tree succumbing to various stressors over time. Do you know how old these trees are? 

Is that an irrigation ditch behind the trees? Has the supply of water to these trees changed?

I am not seeing any exudations from the spruce or pine for that matter. Which I would expect to see with fungal or beetle activity. But not with something like mites (in the spruce).

You mentioned a distant neighbor had scotch pines die from a fungus. What specific fungus was diagnosed? 

Do you know what species of trees are in your stand, deciduous and conifer?
I'm thinking possibly Red pine (_Pinus resinosa_, Scotch pine _Pinus sylvestris_, Blue spruce _Picea pungens_, arborvitae _Thuja occidentalis or plicata_) what are the deciduous trees and have I miss identified any?

Also, what is on the other side of your drive? I see a limb coming across.

Thank you for supplying the pictures. 

Sylvia


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## Multi-G (Jan 3, 2009)

S Mc said:


> Multi, how long have you lived here? Do you know how this stand would normally look in the winter or is this your first winter? With some of the pines, they may be "normal" and you are just seeing their sparcity of lower limbs because with the leaves gone, the deciduous trees have revealed the trunks more. So I would like to ask some questions to help rule some things out or narrow things down.
> 
> How long has the drive been there?
> 
> ...



Thanks for looking this over.

This is my second winter and it is becoming evident they have gotten worse over the years. The house and property have been in my extended family since the house was built in 76. I lived two houses down for a while as a teenager. The drive is 30 years or so old. No de-icing, no piles of snow thrown in them. Herbacide drift is always a concern but that is usually a spring problem. The farm ground around me is owned and farmed by the extended family.

I know Diesel fumes and pines don't mix but there is no known issue here.
No irrigation changes since I was a kid, the "neighbor" is about five miles away that had the fungus issue but at the moment I cannot say what it was. His only comment about it was it was really evident when you looked at them. As the deciduous winter it does thin that stuff out, but it is evident the pines are getting thin.

I have another large healthy pine across the driveway from the stand pictured. I was worried, but what I think is a Blue Spruce took a hard turn in the last month. I do not know for sure what the species of each tree is. I will guess most of them have been there about 30 years +/- as the woods I am in has no other pines. Thus they were likely planted as a windbreak.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Jeremy


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## Ed Roland (Jan 4, 2009)

Looks abiotic. But if you are sure it is not then...

Rhizosphaera Needle Cast can express in similar fashion on blue spruce. 

The disease is usually first evident on lower branches and then works upward gradually. Second-year needles turn a purple or brown color and eventually fall from the tree. After several successive years of needle loss branches may die. In general, trees appear to die from the bottom upward. Small black spots appear in rows in the infected needles through a hand lens.


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## Moestavrn (Jan 4, 2009)

Cytospera Canker maybe?


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## Moestavrn (Jan 4, 2009)

sorry, Cytospora Canker...Defoliates sections at a time, then goes from there


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## S Mc (Jan 4, 2009)

Whereas Rhizosphaera needle cast is more common in dense situations, such as Christmas tree plantations, with lack of air circulation, irrigation practices that promote the fungus and such this would definitely be something to rule out. (When everything is in full leaf how thick and shady is this area?) This is a disease that hits 1st year needles and so Jeremy should have seen a gradual decline of the limbs as the new growth was affected each year and the previous years growth gradually dieing and dropping. 

Symptoms arise in late summer which may match Jeremy's observations.

Jeremy, a needle sample to your local extension office may help with this. Try to find a needle still on the tree that may be starting to turn color.

What are your irrigation practices here? Overhead watering from sprinklers, soaker hoses, flood?

To rule out mites on the spruce, you could hold a white sheet of paper under a limb and give the limb a shake, they should show up as miniscule moving dots. However, they may not be active right now. Closer to spring would be a good time to double check for this pest. 

A note on the herbicide use of adjacent fields. Herbicide/pesticide use can affect trees via direct application, drift, gaseous vaporization and build up in the soil. Most everyone is aware of the direct application, many are aware of drift and so spray on "still" days. Many people do not realize that as the product evaporates during the day, and with some chemicals their gaseous form is also toxic and can do damage with air currents alone allowing it to travel to nontarget vegetation. And, lastly, many of these products build up in the soil. Some of these problems may not be lasting but can contribute to the stressors influencing the general health and vitality of the tree(s).

Tree roots go out quite far. In the case of deciduous trees, 2 to 3 times the width of their canopy. In the case of conifers, the ball park figure is 40% of their height. Many trees have grafted root systems and, therefore, can transfer herbicides, fertilizers, and diseases to each other, as is common in the Red pine.

A final consequence of herbicide/pesticide use, and one that is seldom taken into consideration, is the negative impact it has on a healthy soil. It can interrupt the natural balance of microorganisms thereby damaging the processes that keep the soil healthy and productive.

I'm not saying this is the issue here, however, I would like you, and indeed everyone, to be more aware of the problems/consequences of pesticide use.

Sylvia


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## S Mc (Jan 5, 2009)

On the second to last picture showing the lower trunk section with bug holes, which tree in your stand is this?

Thanks.

Sylvia


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## Urban Forester (Jan 5, 2009)

Just a few observations; 1) With the way the blue spruce trunk "curves" up from the ground, I would suspect a girdling root. If it is rhizosphaera the black fungal spores should be visible on needles that have been infected but not fallen. 2) The pine appears to be Austrian(?) and the holes are more than likely dendroctonus (spp.) beetle. I would believe this to be a secondary attack. Although given the number of entrance holes it's become more than a "minor" situation. 3) I would also suspect "shading out" of these trees may be occuring also. It appears to be quite a mixed bag of evergreens. Was your area dry this year? Or, was the previous winter exceptionally brutal, as far as temp extremes?


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## treeseer (Jan 5, 2009)

Urban Forester said:


> Just a few observations; 1) With the way the blue spruce trunk "curves" up from the ground, I would suspect a girdling root.


Good observation--girdling roots can predispose to pest problems.


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## Castenea (Jan 6, 2009)

I would suspect that shading issues are contributing to the decline of the hard pines. The overwhelming majority of trees start to lose their lower limbs once the canopy closes, with that mixed bag of trees those with lesser shade tolerance will lose their lower limbs first. 

Your neighbors Scots pines could have been killed by diplodia, it will eventually kill Scots and Austrian pines. 

The bark holes could quite easily be not much of anything, they could possibly be from sapsuckers.


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## Ed Roland (Jan 8, 2009)

Sapsuckers feed more in a linear pattern instead of the random hits we see in the pic. Lack of exudate makes me wonder if the tree is too stressed (dead) to defend itself from the borer.

Brought to my attention by an arborist smarter than myself, not exactly a short list, the line of deliniation on that spruce could be from constant irrigation hitting that portion of the tree. The turf supports this assumption.

Just one more guess at what appears to be a dead end until Multi-G gets back to us. opcorn:


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## Castenea (Jan 8, 2009)

I will definitely agree that the problems with the blue spruce are likely to be abiotic. I was trying to indicate that the holes in the outer bark of that pine could be from something other than borers and *may* not go all the way through the bark and thus the lack of exudate indicates they are at most a minor problem.

It has been my experience that very few diseases/pests actually bother healthy trees. Most of the trees suffering from disease or pest problems already have one or more pre-existing abiotic problems, often site or planting issues.


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## Urban Forester (Jan 8, 2009)

Castenea said:


> It has been my experience that very few diseases/pests actually bother healthy trees. Most of the trees suffering from disease or pest problems already have one or more pre-existing abiotic problems, often site or planting issues.



You're correct in that assement. Abiotic is a major contributor to insect/disease activity. What I noticed was that "Multi-G" was from Ohio, and in the last 5 years or so we have seen a massive increase in primary activity from numerous bark beetles (mostly Dendroctonus) in Michigan, being that he is also "upper midwest", I thought that this may be an example of that. They have begun attacking trees that are healthy and well-maintained. Zimmerman Pine Moth and Pitch Mass Borer have also become more "primary", although not to the same degree. I think the the lack of sap flow is more due to the age of the entrance hole than anything else. Although stress could be a factor (as always). I guess we won't know for sure until we hear back from Multi-G, I am curious as to the level of maintenance these trees have had though...


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## hokiewheeler (Jan 12, 2009)

I don't believe the blue spruce would be herbicide injury (unless the lawn is treated). The damage on the tree faces away from the field on the far side of the windbreak. While certain things, like 2,4-D volatilize, that would impact the trees nearest the field. 2,4-D will only be used on wheat or small grain crops, not corn or beans. Has any heavy machinery operated near the tree causing compaction? What about driveway work? Has anything been dug out near the spruce? As to the trees in the windbreak, that looks pretty typical of unmaintained white pines around here. They're planted too close and intermixed with probably pin oak and the lower limbs are getting shaded out and dying. Don't discount the effect of tillage operations in the farm field either. Some of the tools they pull go pretty deep. You could easily remove all the roots on the field side of the tree with a subsoiler or chisel plow. Subsoiling is typically done to break up compaction and can go to a depth up to about 30" or so. This is done as needed, not annually or in a specific rotation.


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## treeshot (Jan 15, 2009)

*pine maggots*

I have cut similar trees down here in mich and when the bark is peele:greenchainsaw: :greenchainsaw: :greenchainsaw: d back there are many similar looking to the wax worms used for ice fishing present ,they leave sawdust behind there bore holes.While observing said bugs i could watch them ingesting tree as they were translucent and were like sucking in the tree pulp.All the trees with these said bore holes die and grub advances to healthy trees a big problem here in mid-north mich


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## treevet (Jan 18, 2009)

Moestavrn said:


> sorry, Cytospora Canker...Defoliates sections at a time, then goes from there



My first suspicion would be Cytospora canker also. Typical scenario. In the early stages there is no sunken canker, the bark is not visibly different in color from the rest, no exudate yet and cankers often cannot be located without cutting into the bark.

Dying of lower branches is usually the first symptom.


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