# Change Climbing Style? - Blakes to Knut



## Fireaxman (Dec 29, 2005)

I've done many hours of research on this and I think I am ready to take it to the tree, but somebody check me out on it before I spend some money on new gear just to maybe bust my gluteus maximus (and assorted other posterior accoutrements).

Been climbing Traditional style on Blue Streak with an old Klein butt strap type belt with D rings on each side (no center D ring like the new saddles built for split tail climbing). I said something about trying a split tail system in a Sherril thread and Tom Dunlap suggested I try going to a Knut or Distel friction hitch instead of the Blakes. OK, I can tie the Knut (thanks to TreeSpyder for the knot links and pictures). But it looks like the "Closed" friction hitches are tied very close to the saddle, rather than a couple of feet up the way I am using the Blakes. That might mean a big change in my climbing style.

In my "Traditional" system my Blakes hitch is always above my hands on the way up, being pushed up by my left hand. Best I can tell from my reseach of previous threads and links to articles provided by TreeSpyder it looks like a split tail with a Knut would stay below my hands on the way up, except that maybe I would have to reach below the Knut to pull the climbing line through. Have I got this right? 

Not sure I like the idea of my hands being above the friction hitch before I am ready to descend. 

Anybody got a picture of an old style (butt strap, D rings on each side) saddle rigged with a Knut? Or, for that matter, any "Closed" style friction hitch (Distel, Knut, VT, French Prusik, Schwabisch). 

It's how the loop is rigged in relation to the two side D rings that I am interested in. Close, or with a couple of feet of slack? Hands mostly above the friction hitch while climbing, or enough slack to keep the hands below the friction hitch (although that would defeat the purpose of the "Self Tending" Knut hitch and put 2 strands of rope up there instead of just 1).

I'll go get my rig out of the truck and put up a picture of what I am using now if it will help.


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## skwerl (Dec 29, 2005)

Yes, the hitch stays close and you reach above it to pull yourself up the rope. The best advanced friction hitches are self-tending, meaning the weight of the rope (or a gentle tug) will pretty much keep the rope dropping through and advancing the hitch. Your days of pushing the hitch up above your hands are over.

I prefer using a small pulley for tending my hitch. The first picture is an image of a Distel that changed my world, this was what opened the door for me into advanced hitches. There are two more pictures of a distel and the last picture is the double fisherman's (Somebody is bound to 'correct' me and start a stupid argument over the name) which is the knot used to attach the tres cord to your carabiner. I started out using 5/16" Sta-Set (a double braid polyester available at marine sources, Google it) but now use 3/8".


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## BostonBull (Dec 29, 2005)

Self tending hitches are the way to go!! I use the Mitchoacan invented by Martin Morales. It is a great self tending hitch. If you wnt to use a Distel or any other advanced hitch you can always drop NickfromWI a line and have him splice you an extra long prussik cord!


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## Stumper (Dec 29, 2005)

Brian, Allow me- the noose knot commonly called a dble fisherman's on the web is properly called a scaffold knot or double overhand noose knot. The double fisherman's moniker is properly applied to a bend used for joining two lines which is formed by tying dbl overhand knots around the standing parts of each other l and letting them jam together.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 29, 2005)

i hope we mean 2 'side' D's are the ones coming off of Butt strap and not ribs?? Self tending/tended friction hitches are generally tied close to mount, to avail the self tending with very little play. On an older style/ 4 ring saddle, i think you can connect the 2 front/from butt strap D's to be as one with snap or carabiner. Hnds above friction hitch in an emergency can be bad, as your instinct is to grab the friction hitch it seems (thus descending); you must drill this instinct out. Pictures are always great help

What is "Mitchoacan invented by Martin Morales"?

Dr. Justin; i believe it was my turn and not yours to mess with Rocky??


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 29, 2005)

Ken and Justin...you guys go ahead and set things straight. I'm going to sit this one out


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## BostonBull (Dec 29, 2005)

Spyder. The Mitchoacan is a self tending hitch invented by Martin Morales a Mexican native born in the state of Mitchoacan. He didnt want this hitch named after him so he named it after where he was born. He is an instructor with Arbormaster in CA.

I have Pm'd you about this hitch over at TH in the past...you showed ZERO interest in it!


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## Stumper (Dec 29, 2005)

KC, My apologies. Please feel free to set both Brian and I straight. For some reason Tom is being reserved today.


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## skwerl (Dec 29, 2005)

If it's OK with you guys, I'm going to keep calling it a double fisherman's because that's how I learned it and it's also just about the same knot I use to tie a fishing hook on monofilament (but with 6 twists).


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## Onelick (Dec 29, 2005)

Please excuse the newbie here, can this(these) knots be used for both single rope and double rope techniques? or just double, taking place of the blake's/split tail?


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## Fireaxman (Dec 29, 2005)

TreeSpyder - yep, by "Side D's" I meant the ones on the butt strap. Got my flipline on the rib strap. And you nailed my fear of "Hands above the friction hitch". Been there. Done that. Didn't get a T shirt but I don't want one.

You can see from the picture I'll try to attach I've been tieing the D's together with my bowline. I've been reluctant to use a crab or a safety hook because I was afraid one of the D's might get on the gate. Had a hook gate break on a saw lanyard one time and dropped my 200T 30 feet. Soft ground. Good tough saw, Praise God. No, it wasn't a safety gate, but it made me think. The butt of that saw is a lot tougher than mine.

I know a lot of men use them; if someone could recomend one out of a catalog that was big enough or had enough bite to make me comfortable - probably a swivel hook - or - what about a screw link?

Skwerl - thanks for the picts. Have you ever attached one to a double D like I've got? 

Yep, I would have called it a fishermans. Glad to be enlightened. Hope I can break the bad habit. Has anybody told Jeff Jepson about this? (TCC page 74)

Already PM'ed Nick about the spliced cord. I was going to cut a couple feet off my Blue Streak, but I simply cannot make myself do it. Then I was going to buy another section of rope from Sherrill just to cut up, but I know I wouldn't be able to make myself cut that either. Simply breaks my heart to make short pieces out of a nice long piece of rope.

Ready to buy a pulley and a hook or screw link also. Can anybody give me some numbers from a catalog? Sherrill, I presume?


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## Fireaxman (Dec 29, 2005)

Onelick - wellcome. Good article on this available through a link on TreeSpyder's web site - "An Overview of Climbing Hitches" by Mark Adams. Wish I could remember exactly how I found it, but maybe TheTreeSpyder can help. Been so many places researching this I get lost trying to re-find something.


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## PTS (Dec 29, 2005)

Help set me straight. This knot shown above will advance with gravity of a rope hands free and will withstand a persons bodyweight without slipping?

The answer to my frustration. 

Does it work well with the pantin or footlocking?

How would it work using a right and left hand ascender?

I am hoping this will reduce the strain on my holding arm while the other advanced the blakes hitch.

Also is this one that will require some playing to determine the right number of raps?

Plan on trying it tomorrow.


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## Redbull (Dec 29, 2005)

Fireaxman, if you're going to use that saddle and climbing system, why don't you get a locking snap and tie your bowline to the snap and then snap your d-rings together.


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## pantheraba (Dec 29, 2005)

Fireaxman said:


> Good article on this available through a link on TreeSpyder's web site - "An Overview of Climbing Hitches" by Mark Adams. Wish I could remember exactly how I found it,



That article (and a LOT of other good ones) are at ********...

http://www.************/articles.php

I have several printed out ("Slick Tricks" is a good one, too) and work my through them periodically.


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## Onelick (Dec 29, 2005)

Dan, are they still talking about double rope with these hitches, correct?
Onelick


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## skwerl (Dec 29, 2005)

yes, doubled rope.


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## skwerl (Dec 29, 2005)

yes, and I started to mention that, but I was trying to stick with the topic at hand without getting off on a side tangent. I'll use the hitch as a backup to the ascender on a single rope. It will hold me without letting me fall, but it would be very difficult to work if all my weight were to be on it.


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## Fireaxman (Dec 30, 2005)

Redbull - 



Fireaxman said:


> I've been reluctant to use a crab or a safety hook because I was afraid one of the D's might get on the gate.



I said "safety hook" thinking "Locking Snap". Just don't like to put anything but a streight pull on anything with a gate. Shell Offshore Safety Standards. Yeah, we were pulling tons, not pounds, but old habits die hard. And my little 170 pounds are just as important to me as compressor packages were to Shell.

Still, if you guys tell me a locking snap is good enough, I'll go with it. Which one to buy not to have to worry about a D ring twisting it's way out of the gate? Does a 6" swivel locking snap have enough bite to keep those D rings from getting on the gate? There is a 9 and 7/8" locking spreader snap that would meet my construction foreman guidelines for a man lift (streight pull on the hooks, or pull opposite the gate), but I'll bet it's big time overkill. And $40+. What brand / size locking snap do you use?

PTS - that's what got me interested. Somebody more experienced with it than I will have to answer your questions definetively, but from what I saw researching old threads and magazine articles it looks pretty good. Skwerl tells me it may need a little tug on the tail to advance, but not much. I played with it with hardware store rope enough to make me want to try it. I'm thinking it should be great for foot locking or pantin.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 30, 2005)

i believe that by the mechanical construction, a bowline is meant to be loaded straight down/inline with standing part; and not being spread apart/pulls perpendicular to the standing part. Pulls/loads crosswise to the standing part (such as D's pulling apart) would perhaps be better served by a Spanish Bowline; typically described as being 'splayed' apart. The mechanics of it and to some extent a jacked bowline are more conducive to properly setting their securing locks by pulls more perpendicular than inline with the standing part. Sherrill's button lock seems popular krab. i think i'll let Tom give notice on how bowline for krab as life support is being left behind. It should still be allowable for snaps i think. Follow Sherrill's listing on safe snaps too.

i have my Knot Links Page that in the first slots for the climber's section links to the riches of the ******** Articles Section; that includes both of Mark's published articles; as well as some other familiar names now published ya might meet on these boreds.

Nothing tends quite as well as the mechanical tenders (key chain krab, dog chain snap {painted pink is best i hear} or micropulley etc.) all the time. But the Knut and it's marl instead of half hitch version the TK; Icicle Hitch, as well as some VT versions with a Knut type finish; offer some self tending capabilities for pretty far when properly dressed/redressed. Of course sliding even smoother with mechanical tender on occasion applied to them. Pantin etc. work well with these, as a Blake's with short bridge and mechanical tender should if tuned right for trip? Some even get Blake's to self tend. Impacting will raise tension in friction hitch, and get it tighter/seizing so must be redressed s/lightly. So will hanging at angle on line; if you are hanging straight down with flow of gravity, you might use only 20' of line. But, hanging at an angle you might use 25' of line for same distance down (just angled). The same distance down with the force of gravity achieved with more loaded rope, is like longer wrench under same load for same werk: more leveraged i think, for over tightening your friction hitch!

i think in general the set of hitches we speak of will ascend on SRT, in a move and secure/ ratcheting sequence, but not descend. i think to descend, the hitch has to unload, and can't do that on SRT. But, our DdRT offers another leg of support, as we slide the hitch it unloads, and the other leg of support takes the load to allow the hitch side to unload; just like the hitch line was stretching, failing or being lowered; the other line magically takes the load. i think that is also why a 1" bight is allowed on FS; when any other time a 2" bight on such a turn would be mandated; the loading jumps across to the other leg of support, not cranking the force so much around the turn(?) through rings etc.

i think the basic construction of these newer/prusik/ coil pulled from 2 ends type friction hitches is 4 turns/ coil (1 is turn, 2 is round turn, 3 double round turn, 4 is coil) which can hold too well/seize. But a simple turn can give some grip and still slip; giving more safety and still slide. So we devise different strategies and names to place a single turn under the coil(to precede in loading), to give grip that will still slip; this reduces load to 4 turns/coil, and keeps it in more of it's manageable/ non-siezeing/ friendly powerband of performance. Place the last/lower hitch one way with half hitch maid under coil from leg of top turn, it is Distel, the other way it is Shwab, make it from bottom of coil it is Knut(with leg from top of coil reeving through), TK similar, Icicle tending from bottom turn as hitch strategy as well with leg from top turn reeving thru(characteristic of the self tenders i think), etc. 

The hitches pull in basket rather than single, linear leg of pull/support like Tautline and Blake's. So, instead of cutting lines for tails like Blake's or Tautline daze, we get smaller diameter cord like mountain, rescue and tactical all use. A smaller diameter grips the host line better(and leverages the line used fro friction hitch on such a small bight/turn less to preserve more tensile strength as it also grips better), and the 2 leg basket position of attachment is stronger use of tail/cord device than the single leg attatchmeant varieties; so is allowed. VT family a lil'different in that it gives a gauntlet of bends in the host embracing sock of turns preceding/under the coil on top, to take the main loading off of the coil. 

A Blake's actually more like these prusiks than it is like Tautline, even though they are both single leg attatchmeant strategies. In that Blake's is an uninterrupted 4turn/ coil set as base mechanics (tautline is 2 seperate roundturns laced like clove), Blakes single leg does pull from the bottom of the coil, but lays across the seized (by anchor hitch type of strategy) on one end leg to top of coil. So the top turn gets pulled on as leg you hang from presses down on it as it laces to bottom of coil(and pulls on top coil at same time!). The Blake's doesn't precede the coil with half hitch, but instead interrupts full grip of the first 2/ most loaded turns to tame coil from seizing. So, you have really been hanging on this prussik type of strategy in some ways; with only 1 leg of support instead of 2, if you are using Blake's!

i've kinda gone with double noose as name for the eyes we secure to saddle with. But that is when i tie like an anchor to self/ with a round turn and not a crossed turn. i wonder if the crossed turn strategy for same deserves another name etc. 

As far as being upstaged by someone 2x my size; i guess i've groan used to it(almost); but i still want my turn! 

Safe Climbing is No Accident!​


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## xtremetrees (Dec 30, 2005)

I need to remeber the TLH (taughtline hitch) may have better or more abilitites than the blakes.
Say you have a 10 foot spikelss climb to make. You throw your rope over the limb and begin pulling yourself to say 7 feet, then tie a TLH in mid air. You can do this knot on a loaded rope (3 below one above) better than you can tie a blakes. Faster to.


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## Stumper (Dec 30, 2005)

XTreme. Think ahead.

Fireaxman, For the saddle style you are using-a Spreader snap is the proper attachment. Been there, Done that. Burned the T-shirt. If you can possibly afford it I recommend changing saddles. Attaching more than one bit of gear in the same D is frowned upon (for good reasons) I climbed for several years on a saddle like you have using a spreader snap for my climbing line and snaps on my lanyard hooking into the same Ds---- It worked, and I survived- but I would not go back to that system-it was discantnued fro a reason. By the way how old is your saddle? Most of us ignore things like manufacturer's instructions but they do say we should pull saddles from service if they are over 5 years old.


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## Tom Dunlap (Dec 30, 2005)

xtreme,

You're describing a free-climb, not being tied in to get to the 7' height. This is not allowed. The climber must be secured, ie. tied-in, when they leave the ground. 

The TLH can be tied on a tensioned rope, which you're illustrating. But the scenario is one that should NEVER be encountered.


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## skwerl (Dec 30, 2005)

I used a basic buttstrap saddle for years and always used one clip on the rope to attach to both lower D rings. When I started with the advanced hitches I attached the carabiner to the saddle in the same way. I just hope that Fireaxeman's phobia of aluminum tripe lock carabiners doesn't prevent him from embracing advanced hitches, but it's looking that way. 

The double locking spreader snap is a heavy and clunky addition which will inhibit the smooth operation of the Distel or VT hitch and place the hitch further away from the body. One of the biggest reasons for change is reduced weight but the double spreader adds unneccessary weight and bulk. If you don't trust the triple locking biners embraced by the industry, you might as well stick with the Blake's.


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## Stumper (Dec 30, 2005)

skwerl said:


> The double locking spreader snap is a heavy and clunky addition which will inhibit the smooth operation of the Distel or VT hitch and place the hitch further away from the body. One of the biggest reasons for change is reduced weight but the double spreader adds unneccessary weight and bulk. If you don't trust the triple locking biners embraced by the industry, you might as well stick with the Blake's.


 
Correct, Which is why I think he ought to get a better saddle. If he wants a basic buttstrap that is okay but it ought to have more Ds. The spreader added a lot of comfort to my old Bashlin-but I was also at the upper end of the medium sizing back then and a single clip on both Ds squeezed me uncomfortably. My personal analysis is that 'biners are the best way to handle a climbing line set up and snaps are better on lanyards/fliplines. Fear of 'biners is unreasonable.


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## Fireaxman (Dec 30, 2005)

Stumper - Ooops! I bought the saddle new in 1985. Treated it like my life depended on it, kept it indoors, carried it in a special bag to keep it seperate from anything sharp. It owes me nothing, but it has become a close freind. Hate to drop it for a flashier model. But you've got me looking at it with a magnifying glass tonight. Stayed in it about 3 hours this afternoon and it still feels comfortable. I did try a freinds 6" locking snap today, but the left butt strap D ring was uncomfortably close to the gate.

I trust the locking 'biners 100% on a streight pull. But they came with a warning not to load the gate.


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## Fireaxman (Dec 30, 2005)

What about putting a figure 8 descender ring between the D's with a couple of small 'biners? Yeah, its more junk, but probably lighter and more flexible than the spreader snaps.

I could buy a new saddle. But it's the shopping I hate more than the cost. No arborist supply store anywhere close, and I hate to make such a major purchase out of a catalog without trying it on.


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## Fireaxman (Dec 30, 2005)

Short rope between the D's! :bang: Makes me feel pretty stupid for making it so complicated! Thanks, Treeco.


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## pantheraba (Dec 31, 2005)

The rope sounds interesting...probably simpler than what I did. Before I got my New Tribe, I had a similar saddle. I used 4 biners between the D's...kept the gates opposite and inverted from each other. It went D, 2 opposed biners beside each other, those 2 locked into the next side by side biners and they were snapped to the other D...that way I was always snapped into 2 biners with my climbing line. 

But, whenever I used 2 climbing lines it got pretty gear intensive at the attachment point. The New Tribe has been a big improvement.


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## xtremetrees (Dec 31, 2005)

Tom I suppose your right. I need to use the TLH more often than I do.
Pan and Tree Co,.
Some dill weed went thru a neighborhood in Stone mnt wenching trees and felling them into booby trap situations. I mean bad 30 inch pines 4 of which are laying onto a 20 inch leaning it to a 39 degree angle.The most pressureized part of the 20 inch tree is about 30 feet up. Its about 90 feet tall and the neighbors house is about 40 feet away.
The only way is to fly onto the booby trap. Ive thopught of the short 30 foot climb and cut it all free above my head, But it I cut something free the resulting log falling onto the already pressurized tree im on at 30 feet it could fail.
I've thought about calling in the expert like you guys, lol, alas, the jobs Tuesday. 
If I catch this dill weed making booby traps in the sky, I'll just laff.


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## NickfromWI (Dec 31, 2005)

Let's see a pic of the Mitchoacan. A newly invented knot? This is the info we gotta be sharing around here!

Fireaxman, you're on the right track. I'll PM you about the split tails. Just so you know, and many here will agree, the most affordable way to tie the advanced hitches is to buy some appropriate cordage and tie double overhand, double fishermans, grapevine, scaffold knots to form eyes. The splices form a cleaner system.

When joining 2 ends, I call it a double fisherpersons BEND. A double fisherpersons knot is the loop at the end version.

love
nick


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## Fireaxman (Dec 31, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Make sure of course you know your knots. The scaffold also called double overhand noose would be my knot of choice.



Done, knots as per your recomendation. I like it. I probably wont have a chance to put it in a tree before Monday, but it works great from the loft to the living room floor.


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## skwerl (Dec 31, 2005)

Cool. It takes a short time to learn to trust it, but then you're golden. I came from the tautline hitch and was able to trust/ identify the distel because I could 'see' the tautline within it. I was very happy on the distel for about 6 months and then moved on to the VT. The only real reason for changing was that the distel tended to lock up a bit if I sat on it too long. 

It's great that you're expanding your thinking and tools. I'm enjoying it as much as you are. Looking forward to your comments after you've used it.


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## Fireaxman (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm playing with the Distel and the Knut here in the living room, on the rope hung from the loft. The Distel seems to stay dressed a little tighter, and I like that. Like you said, I can SEE how it works. The Knut is spreading out along the the climbing line a little more under load, kind of like the tresses on a VT, but it still grabs hold plenty quick when i put a load on it . The Knut definetly breaks quicker and runs on the climbing line with less friction.

And, I can't get the Distel to self tend very reliably. It comes up a few inches and sticks. The Knut comes up very quickly and easily, even without a pulley (I got no pulley ... yet.)

Obviously I'll have to work each hitch under some various circumstances before I develop a preference, but I'm getting the feeling tonight I might like the Distel for Blue Streak in a false crotch (tighter knot for lower friction setup) but might prefer the Knut for Arboplex in a natural crotch (higher friction setup). I'll probably still use the Blakes for double crotching, because I think it will continue to be easier to tie in the tree and also because I now have so many knots next to my saddle I don't think I'll have room for another Distel.

Nick, there's gotta be something good said about "cleaner system". With my TreeCo re-engineered saddle I'm up to 5 double fish.... oops, I mean scaffold knots ... or is it Bend?  in a square foot. I may yet get a new saddle, but my TreeCo modification will let me play long enough to be sure it is worth while.

Great to have an arsenal instead of just one gun. And I ain't even gotten in to the fine tuning yet. Now I get to sight 'em all in. Thanks for all the help.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 1, 2006)

The self tending hitches generally make their preceding half hitch from the bottom turn of the coil; and then also restrict some of the pull to the top of the coil (Knut, TK, Icicle).

Distel and Schwab make their preceding half hitch from the turn coming off the top of the coil, and don't restrict the force to the bottom coil; nor are they known for self tending. A cheap keychain carabiner, dog snap etc. can be used for the mechanical tender; this device doesn't need to be up to lifeline strength etc. specifications; for it is not in the chain of support, but beside it.

Climbing system is 2/1; so for every 2' that slide thru hitch you drop 1'; generally plenty of time for a properly set friction hitch to grab host lifeline. Playing and tuning you should be able to find what slides, yet catches well for you. This can change with alteration of style, host line, friction cord etc.; or even worn friction cord can change what you like/ how many turns etc.

Good L.U.C.K. (Labor Under Controlled Knowledge)

Safe Climbing is No Accident; so Live with It!​


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## NickfromWI (Jan 1, 2006)

A bend is when 2 ends of a rope are tied together to form a longer rope or a loop out of a rope.

Keep playing around with it. You know, you can use the carabiner you're clipping the friction hitch to as a slack tender. Click here tending.avi and you can see what I mean.

love
nick


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## Fireaxman (Jan 5, 2006)

NickfromWI said:


> You know, you can use the carabiner you're clipping the friction hitch to as a slack tender. Click here tending.avi and you can see what I mean.
> 
> love
> nick




Nick, that is a Very Good trick. Thanks.


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## pantheraba (Jan 5, 2006)

NickfromWI said:


> You know, you can use the carabiner you're clipping the friction hitch to as a slack tender. Click here tending.avi and you can see what I mean.



Nick, I have read about that but did not understand until now...thanks for showing how the krab can be a slack tender like that.


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## Stumper (Jan 5, 2006)

The only concern I have about that system is that it moves a load bearing leg of the cord far fron the carabiner spine. HMS style 'biners are good for our usage because they are designed for loads that aren't hard against the spine but I still try to keep my cord as close as possible to being in the "natural center" where a single rope would naturally center itself under load if there is no interference. 
BTW-does anyone else think that the Petzl William has a very crappy shape for load distribution? I love the shape of the Omega Jake with its nice, fat, round end that centers everything smoothly and seems to be engineered to bear its loads with great consistency and more even distribution of weight on the spine from both legs of a tress cord.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 5, 2006)

i've done like that, not as much pulling distance as when tender is farther away and more play; but good fer a lot of things that tail is not loaded as it reeves thropugh krab. But krab should not be so wide that your Friction Hitch can slip through, and tender is positioned on top of it!


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## Fireaxman (Jan 7, 2006)

TheTreeSpyder said:


> But krab should not be so wide that your Friction Hitch can slip through, and tender is positioned on top of it!



You know your stuff, TreeSpyder. Thanks to your warning it happened at 2 feet off the ground rather than 60 feet. I'll have to get me some smaller 'biners.

I think I'm settling in on the Knut. Seems to break faster and run smoother up the line than the Distel, and sets just as well when I put weight on it. Of course, more tuning on the Distel could make a difference, but the Knut worked so well right out of the box that I think I'll stay with it for a while. 

Next question. I do a lot of "Body Thrusting" with the Blakes as per TCC 2nd edition page 40. How do you do this with the short tie off on the Knut or Distel? Or do you use some other method? 

I also tried Foot Lock, but it did not work too well with the self tending hitch either. The slack in the 'biner and tress cost me a precious few inches each time I set back on the hitch. Am I doing something wrong, or missing a trick, or just not using the right technique for the equipment?


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## Fireaxman (Jan 7, 2006)

Maybe I found the answer to my question in another thread. Skwerl gave a pretty good description of his technique in the "Ascender" thread, and then John Paul backed it up with a good tip on minding the tail with a foot lock. Makes a lot of sense. Do I need an ascender to use the self tending hitch below the crown?


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## Stumper (Jan 7, 2006)

Fireaxman,Just readjust your thinking about how you tend slack when Body thrusting. With your Blakes you probably use a long bridge and reach up below your hitch, thrust and pull down then hold with one hand while sliding your hitch up the rope with the other. Using the tress cord and self-tending set up Reach up your rope above the hitch. Thrust and pull down. Hold with one hand and grab you r rope below the hitch with the othe-you can either pull down with that hand or pull up-the minder pulley or threaded 'biner will slide the hitch up the rope. The long bridge is a little more efficient for body thrusting -even making your tress cord /hitch set up as short coupled as possible you still have a tiny bit of slack if you relax and sit the saddle before the next pull..... BUT if you have a groundsperson tend slack for you you can hand over hand up the rope while they gently pull the slack through. If you are well above the ground and haven't weighted the hitch, the rope will usually tail itself under its own weight.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 7, 2006)

We are really care-full about reaching above hitch; and have drilled out instinct to grab hitch (making it slide) when things get a'lil crazy.

i think of the Thrust & Pull Down that JUstin speaks of as a thrust up with hips to reduce friction on support as i lift too, then the pull down is with arms on opposite end of bod. This kinda gives double use of force i think, for the pull down helps serve hips up; if ya get the flow right.

Longer arm pulls are more efficient than a bunch of shorter arm pulls (hate to admit that!). Alternatively to pulling above hitch; you can artificially/ temporarily extend bridge (between hitch and saddle); so that you get longer arm pulls, below hitch. Though the Ground Control help tip is excellent, and adds more safety too; just don't drop anything on'em!

Here is extended bridge, is even better if tender is prussicked to other leg of line, then crosses over and serves under hitch. This is an olde picture, guess i need to change it to not have an open eye (here a DBY) on the krab(as well as sling not girthed to lock/ choke down/ cinch tight); per new version of Z that Tom Dunlap has been letting us know about. This link shows how a bowline on life support krab can be bad. i read the Z to mean that a bowline to snap is okay; but others say that it is to be outlawed too. But to me, the looser eye allows the snap to self orientate correctly; but jury is still out on that part of this link...


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## Tree Machine (Jan 7, 2006)

I continue to be amazed.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 7, 2006)

i do same, just offering awareness and option, especially to newb(udd)ies.


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## Fireaxman (Jan 7, 2006)

Stumper said:


> Fireaxman,Just readjust your thinking about how you tend slack when Body thrusting. .... Using the tress cord and self-tending set up Reach up your rope above the hitch. Thrust and pull down. Hold with one hand and grab you r rope below the hitch with the other ... pull down with that hand ...



This works. And very well. Love It, as a matter of fact. "Just readjust your thinking". Sorry you guys got to lead me by the hand on this.

I was reluctant to reach above the friction hitch exactly for the reason TreeSpyder explained. Took a hard landing a while back for the bad habit on the Blakes. But actually, with the friction hitch so close to my saddle, plus lessons learned, I don't think it will be as much a problem as I thought.

Don't even need the hip thrust. Been hip thrusting against the Blakes to give me some momentum as I pulled myself up, mostly just because that's the way I was taught. It actually surprised me to find out how easy it is to just pull myself up the tree, especially with a friction saver.

Thanks for your patience.

Edit 01/22/06 just so I don't lose this. Good info on VT in Commercial forum "step by step photos of my VT hitch" by Skwerl. I'm gonna try it.

Edit 01/29/06 be sure to use the right rope. See "Near Miss" in Arborist 101 thread.


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