# Any Way to Improve Stump Grinder Performance?



## beaverb01 (Nov 29, 2006)

I have a 23HP grinder which cuts well but takes a while to get the job done. Has anyone modified their small grinder with good results? I have considered fitting the machine with different teeth, changing the flywheel to a cast iron one, making internal mods, etc. Wanted to get some ideas from other tree guys who use these machines as a part of their business.


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## Totally Stumped (Nov 29, 2006)

Buy a bigger machine. No substitute for cubic inches in the grinding business.


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## Scars2prove-it (Dec 1, 2006)

Totally Stumped said:


> Buy a bigger machine. No substitute for cubic inches in the grinding business.




I agree. I used to own a Vermeer 252 when I started out. Later, I bought a used Vermeer 665 that would grind the same stump in 1/10 the time. Now, I sub out my stump work to someone with a 60 hp Carlton.

There is really nothing you can do except have very sharp teeth. Even then, you will still be fighting the stump and won't be doing as good a job as a bigger machine would on larger stumps.


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## Ekka (Dec 1, 2006)

BeaverB01

Can you please tell me more about your machine.

What type of engine?

Belt or hydo drive?

Cutter wheel dia?

No. of teeth?

Air filter/carby etc.

Picture please.

I got lots of ideas and whilst bigger may be better there's nothing wrong with a better smaller machine ... it's not only the big chainsaws that get hotted up is it?


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## xander9727 (Dec 1, 2006)

Get ahold of Dave Mattison at New River 330-669-2444. The Sandavik wheel alone will improve your cutting speed by at least 30%. If you want more performance you can then change your pulleys to slow the wheel down 25%-30%. This will give you a proprotional increase in torque at the wheel while giving you longer tool life. The Sandavik cutters are designed to run at a slower speed and have very compact pockets that limit parasitic drag. This is the least expensive and most effective way to improve performance without increasing horsepower. I have been doing a lot of testing with the new wheel and feel it has huge possibilities.


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## woodchux (Dec 2, 2006)

N2o


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## Ekka (Dec 2, 2006)

Can anyone post a picture of that Sandvik wheel?????

And the teeth that go in it????????

Ta


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## beaverb01 (Dec 2, 2006)

Ekka said:


> BeaverB01
> 
> Can you please tell me more about your machine.
> 
> ...



EKKA,

This machine is the same as a Carlton 2400 except it is an older model (1998) and has a kohler 23hp cast iron engine with opposing cylinders, carb., points and condenser (which I would like to upgrade to solid state) I just got this machine, so can't afford to run out and buy a new one. This should do fine with some mods. Besides, I love tinkering with engines anyway and the mods would be much cheaper than a new grinder.

Beaver


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## beaverb01 (Dec 2, 2006)

xander9727 said:


> Get ahold of Dave Mattison at New River 330-669-2444. The Sandavik wheel alone will improve your cutting speed by at least 30%. If you want more performance you can then change your pulleys to slow the wheel down 25%-30%. This will give you a proprotional increase in torque at the wheel while giving you longer tool life. The Sandavik cutters are designed to run at a slower speed and have very compact pockets that limit parasitic drag. This is the least expensive and most effective way to improve performance without increasing horsepower. I have been doing a lot of testing with the new wheel and feel it has huge possibilities.




Cool! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Tell me more about this wheel. You are talking about the flywheel, right? Any idea on $$? Can Dave Mattison also sell me the pulleys?

Beaver


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## l2edneck (Dec 2, 2006)

I used to run a rayco super jr.I found that when i took a bunch of unneeded guards and just overall useless metal off the machine.(guard belst,bearing covers etc)It perked it up a bit after droppin prolly 35 pounds off the wheel housing.Made it a lil more dangerous ,but then again i dont let ppl hang out in my grindin' area.(unless there holdin plywood to deflect the chips)


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## xander9727 (Dec 2, 2006)

Ekka,
Here is New Rivers website. I can post a pic of my wheels (I have two grinders with them) if I remember tomorrow. I have my Carlton grinder at my house.

Here's the link http://www.newriverequipment.com/

Hope that helps.


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## Ekka (Dec 3, 2006)

That Sandvik cutter wheel looks space aged!

Some pics would be good, I wonder if the bolt holes etc line up for a straight swap or what?

BeaverB01 maybe yours is older but it looks like 3600 rpm for you also, probably drops down to 3200rpm working. Get a tach on it and see how it's going. Can you take the guards off and measure the pulley sizes OD and the cutter wheel dia to the tips of the teeth.

Also, any chance of pics?

What sort of air cleaner is on it? I find that switching to Donaldson with centrifugal pre cleaner helped for sure. Here's a pic of one on an RG20 but it only has the hat not a centrifugal 

http://www.raycomfg.com/rg25hdsolo.htm

Also have a look at where the Govenor spring is attached, I find moving the spring out to the furthest setting is best, on my Honda engine I actually had to put kinks in it with pliers so it was tighter ... govenor works better then but Honda's govenor is nothing like Kohlers for response.


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## B-Edwards (Dec 5, 2006)

Xander9727 I spoke to a dealer about this wheel and he told me unless I misunderstood him that the wheel has rock teeth on the outer edge .This seems to me like the absolute best wheel setup you could have. The way i understood it was those rock teeth would do the plunge part of the cut and the side teeth did most of the stump grinding. That looks like it would save a ton on changing or sharpening teeth . Is this correct or did I misunderstand him? Thanks


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## xander9727 (Dec 5, 2006)

On the bigger machines this works fine. I don't run rock teeth on either of my machines and I break one every 10 hours of run time on the average. The rock teeth don't cut as fast and the standard teeth aren't affect much by rocks.........metal is a different story.


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## John464 (Dec 5, 2006)

xander9727 said:


> On the bigger machines this works fine. I don't run rock teeth on either of my machines and I break one every 10 hours of run time on the average. The rock teeth don't cut as fast and the standard teeth aren't affect much by rocks.........metal is a different story.



im confused. you are recommending the Sandvik, but at the same time are breaking teeth on the average of every 10 hrs? that doesnt sound so great to me

what is the cost of Sandvik setup on self propelled machine i.e SC352?

how about the upkeep of replacing parts? more or less $$ as opposed to regular grinder tooth setup?


My teeth are dull! Would appreciate some info


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## John464 (Dec 5, 2006)

just did a search and found the price is around $3k for the swap. Thats steep!


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## Pollock777 (Dec 6, 2006)

*Grinder*

I think you need to step up to a bigger grinder. If you can afford it keep the one you have and get a nice size tow behind save the small one for stumps in yards with gates.


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## Curbside (Dec 6, 2006)

I run Sandvic Dura Disk on both my Vermeer grinders. Sc60TX and a SC252. This disk is absolutly unbelievable and maintenance is so much easier. Really the only time I break teeth are when I hit steel. Chains, survey markers, tree supporst etc. It holds up very well in rocks and concrete. The carbides are at least 3 times the size of Vermeers Pro teeth and out last them. When one edge dulls you can move the tooth to the other side of the wheel and you are cutting on the other side of the edge. There are 2 styles of teeth. One are longs and the other are shorts. The tips are identical but the shorts go on the outer edge of the wheel and the longs go on the side of the wheel. There is a pocket of sorts but it is there to protect the nut that holds the tooth on and keep the tooth from moving. The pocket is very streamlined. The teeth cut the wood into smaller chips and you can take passes of 7-8 inches depending on the size of your disk.

The cost of the teeth seem to be similar to Vermeer Pros. The disk I thought was reasonably priced considering it comes with a full set of teeth and pockets.

The best part is the ease of changing teeth. I use a 1 1/4 inch hole saw to clean the mud around the nut and then use a battery impact to remove the nut. Takes only seconds.


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## Curbside (Dec 6, 2006)

John464 said:


> just did a search and found the price is around $3k for the swap. Thats steep!




View attachment 41135


If someone priced you 3000.00 for a disk for your 352 then you better give Dave Mattison a call at New River because I did not even pay close to that for my SC60TX I would guess for a 352 complete with teeth and pockets it would be somewhere around 1100.00

I tried posting some information on the disk. Hopefully it worked.


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## B-Edwards (Dec 6, 2006)

How easy/hard is it to sharpen these teeth and what is the best way to sharpen them? Cost per tooth? Drawbacks if any? Thanks


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## Curbside (Dec 6, 2006)

B-Edwards said:


> How easy/hard is it to sharpen these teeth and what is the best way to sharpen them? Cost per tooth? Drawbacks if any? Thanks




The cost of teeth are $10.30. Don't know of any drawbacks. I do not sharpen them but I would think it would not be difficult to sharpen as they are basically a square piece of carbide.


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## Bigstumps (Dec 6, 2006)

*Easiest/Cheapest Performance Enhancement*

Doesn't matter what type of teeth - keep them very sharp.

I find on my small machine (raycor 1620) the teeth have to be almost new to do anything. Even a small amount of loss in efficiency and I'm not cutting.

I take the teeth out of the small machine and then use them in my big tow behind - dull teeth hardly make any difference to it.


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## xander9727 (Dec 6, 2006)

John464 said:


> im confused. you are recommending the Sandvik, but at the same time are breaking teeth on the average of every 10 hrs? that doesnt sound so great to me
> 
> what is the cost of Sandvik setup on self propelled machine i.e SC352?
> 
> ...



I break one tooth for every ten hours of grinding. There are 50 teeth on my large wheel. I have over 250 hours of grinding on it and have replaced 24 teeth. Of those 24, I replace 6 when I ground a 1" steel rod in half.
In comparison I was replacing 1 tooth per hour when I ran the 1/2" teeth from border city. I broke 12 at once with a fence t-post. 
With the 1/2" teeth I broke the whole carbide off completely. With the Sandivik I consider them broke if I break off any of the leading edge of the carbide (break not wear).

The Sandivik teeth are around $12 a piece. So I spend about $275 in teeth a year. With the border city teeth or the Vermeer pro teeth I spend over $700 a year plus the labor and down time..........thats the real cost.

My $.02


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## Bigstumps (Dec 7, 2006)

250 hours and only 24 teeth!!

I do about 600 hours a year on my big machine. If this tooth cost is accurate I need to look into it!!!!!

My big machine uses the Vermeer Pro Series. Easy to change but I don't think I get anywhere near that life out of teeth. The Pro Series has the exact same piece of carbide as the 1/2" cheapies that came in my small Rayco. I've switched the Rayco to the Pro Series just so I can run the same teeth in both machines. 

I send my teeth to a guy in Georgia for sharpening - Raymond Johnson. Come back ready to use. He sharpens them for less than it was costing me in green wheels and aggrevation, plus I'd rather spend my time doing something that makes $150/hour!!!


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## B-Edwards (Dec 7, 2006)

Wow Bigstumps are you a prostitute?


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## stumpy66 (Dec 7, 2006)

perhaps bigstumps forum name says it all....perhaps he is worth $150 an hour....


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## Curbside (Dec 7, 2006)

I'm not doing quite as good as Xander with my teeth but I am still very happy. With 120 hours on the disk on a SC60TX I have broken a total of 23 teeth that needed full replacing. I have approx another dozen that have the carbide partially broken off but all I do is flip them over to the other side of the disk and use the opposite edge. On the SC60 I grind untill the teeth break. You really only break the teeth on the leading edge and the first row of side teeth. The rest of the cutters never hit anything and never dull because they are only cutting wood.

A lot of my grinding is done for cities and it seems like I hit an awful lot of rebar etc when your working close to roads and curbs. The teeth are very hardy and take an awful lot of abuse. I know that I would have used up tripple the teeth in the pro series if not more and spent way more time changing teeth with those damn pockets.


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## stumpy66 (Dec 7, 2006)

i do have to say that pro teeth are a pain to change, hitting the teeth with a hammer to get them out of the pocket and the actual unbolting of the pockets in the first place....i like them in use..but am staggered by the amount of broken teeth mentioned.... perhaps i just am more careful, do less work or avoid the utillity/council work...it does seem like a lot of broken teeth...has anyone kept there teeth til you get a load and sell em for scrap....the price of metal that the moment that has to be an option...


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## Bigstumps (Dec 7, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> perhaps bigstumps forum name says it all....perhaps he is worth $150 an hour....




That's funny!!! My woman wishes that were true!!!


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## Curbside (Dec 7, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> i do have to say that pro teeth are a pain to change, hitting the teeth with a hammer to get them out of the pocket and the actual unbolting of the pockets in the first place....i like them in use..but am staggered by the amount of broken teeth mentioned.... perhaps i just am more careful, do less work or avoid the utillity/council work...it does seem like a lot of broken teeth...has anyone kept there teeth til you get a load and sell em for scrap....the price of metal that the moment that has to be an option...




I am thrilled about the small amount of teeth broken. I am only breaking teeth when they hit metal. Remember when you have a large horse power machine the force has to go somewhere and usually that means the carbide is going to shatter. I have done stumps with hidden chains in them, surveyer stakes, rebar. Then their is metal thats laying under the ground. You know when you hit the metal but by then it's too late. The machine with the disk produces thousands of dollars with a tooth cost of 250.00. I personally do not think that is too bad.


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## stumpy66 (Dec 7, 2006)

No you are probably right, the tooth is the right thing to snap as opposed to sending the shock up the drive chain.......but i tend to go around metal......perhaps i am over caucious.... new developments in teeth are always welcome as are offers to test them free....


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## John464 (Dec 8, 2006)

Ya that sounds like too much maintenance to me. I usually dont break teeth until they are about ready to be replaced. I wear my teeth down to the point there is no carbide left to sharpen. The major problem I run into is by the time the teeth are worn so is the pocket and the bolt. This then requires them to be cut off.

I just orderd Leonardi Tomahawk teeth. Came to about $330 for all 20 new teeth, pockets, and bolts. Will give them a shot, hopefully better than the Vermeer Pro's in terms of cutting ability and how well the pockets/bolt were so I can get them off without cutting.


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## stumpy66 (Dec 8, 2006)

John464.....i have to disagree.....you take the art out of our business...
(grind til you are out of carbide.........)


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## beaverb01 (Dec 11, 2006)

*Sandvik Wheel*

Just ordered one of these for my small grinder (23hp) it needs all the help it can get. Been using the stock teeth, so I'll do some testing and post the results. Hope this works as the $1400 price tag was a tough decision to make. Wish me luck!


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## stumpy66 (Dec 11, 2006)

let us know how you get on......i changed my dosko standard wheel for a multitip and never looked back....what machine will you be fitting it on??


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## B-Edwards (Dec 11, 2006)

Yes Beaver let us know ,on a smaller hp machine you will know without a doubt if it improves your performance. I did use a 630a Vermeer ,great machine but if the teeth were the least bit dull ,stick a fork in it cause you were done.


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## jonseredbred (Dec 11, 2006)

how about the leonardi M1? anyone seen it?


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## stumpy66 (Dec 12, 2006)

just checking out the leonardi website....has anyone seen this??
http://www.leonarditreecare.com/Wheel-Over.html

looks a beast...


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## beaverb01 (Dec 12, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> let us know how you get on......i changed my dosko standard wheel for a multitip and never looked back....what machine will you be fitting it on??



This Dura Disk is going on a Carlton 2300


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## beaverb01 (Dec 12, 2006)

stumpy66 said:


> just checking out the leonardi website....has anyone seen this??
> http://www.leonarditreecare.com/Wheel-Over.html
> 
> looks a beast...



A beast indeed!! You need a mid to large machine to turn it, but looks like it would cut through a "56 Buick!


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## xander9727 (Dec 12, 2006)

It may look cool but it still has all of the limitations of a small carbide large pocket set up. You can see through it but it won't cut much faster.


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## jonseredbred (Dec 12, 2006)

what are those limitations?


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## xander9727 (Dec 12, 2006)

Parasitic drag due to the large cross section of the pockets compared to the the relatively small cross section of the cutter. The thin small carbide that is easily destroyed or rendered useless by obstacles. The increased difficulty associated with changing pocket style cutters. Increased mass which makes recovery times slower and impact damage to cutters greater. To name a few.

I have a few more but I don't want to appear like a dinosaur hater.


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## stumpy66 (Dec 14, 2006)

It looks ok if you just wanted to pimp your grinder.....i could imagine the wheel in chrome with anodised red teeth..... the 352 in a candy pearl......with strip lights underneath.......and mean 5 spoke black alloys for rims.......... 

( i need to get out more!!)


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## B-Edwards (Dec 14, 2006)

I would also want the THUMPING music if I tricked a stumper out.


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## stevieb (Jan 2, 2007)

I just tried for the first time a diamond wheel for my 115mm grinder. Allow's me to sharpen the teeth on the machine. Works just fine and takes about 20 mins at the end of the day just to put an edge back on. This should keep my teeth sharper and extend there life. Better then a green wheel!!!


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## Duffer (Jan 2, 2007)

Hey guys do any of you use green teeth i have a Carlton 2700 model,and a7015 that i use green teeth and i find that they cut pretty good easy to replaceand cost is not to bad.


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## stihlgotwood (Jan 13, 2007)

*Good Question*



Duffer said:


> Hey guys do any of you use green teeth i have a Carlton 2700 model,and a7015 that i use green teeth and i find that they cut pretty good easy to replaceand cost is not to bad.



I am seeking the same answers as Duffer. I have a Rayco 1631 (31hp Vangaurd) I use rayco superteeth now and when replacing whole set costs about $380 all said and done (canadian) I think to switch to green teeth would be close to same at first but would pay off in end with only having to buy the teeth after and no pockets. Didn't see to much talk of these....or am i blind.

Maybee you can give me some info-how long are teeth lasting,what were you using before, is it more cost effective,performance with rocks.

Duffer just want to let you know, somewhere in this section there was talk of this company (Demott-tool.com) who resharpens teeth for very fair price-i thought. Hope info is correct.

thanx for all the help


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## Tim Krause (Jan 31, 2007)

*green teeth on small machine*



stihlgotwood said:


> I am seeking the same answers as Duffer. I have a Rayco 1631 (31hp Vangaurd) I use rayco superteeth now and when replacing whole set costs about $380 all said and done (canadian) I think to switch to green teeth would be close to same at first but would pay off in end with only having to buy the teeth after and no pockets. Didn't see to much talk of these....or am i blind.
> 
> Maybee you can give me some info-how long are teeth lasting,what were you using before, is it more cost effective,performance with rocks.
> 
> ...




we have a carlton 2500-4. we put green teeth on it and it made a big difference. much easier to change and have three cutting edges. grinds alot faster than stock.


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## beaverb01 (Feb 1, 2007)

*Duradisk*

I put a duradisk on my old Carlton 2300 and have been very pleased with the performance improvement. So far, I have cut about 40 stumps (pine and gum) without seeing any need for sharpening. Plus, the disk will take bites of up to about 2 inches at a time. These improvements plus the time saved on grinding should pay for the wheel in a short time. The cost was $1400 with spare teeth and pockets, including shipping. The teeth can be turned to provide a fresh edge, and can probably be sharpened on the machine when the time comes for that. I have found that my machine seems to run better (not work so hard) with the new disk and the vibration is probably half or less than stock.
Beaver


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## stihlgotwood (Feb 2, 2007)

*what kind of hp do these carltons have*

Just wondering how big these carlton machines are-2500-4 and 2300. Are they self propelled? My Rayco is self-prop. and 31 hp.


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## beaverb01 (Feb 2, 2007)

*Carlton 2300*

This machine is four wheeled and self propelled, only 23 hp. It was owned by a landscaper/irrigation service prior to my purchase. The guy thought the teeth on the cutter wheel were supposed to all be at the same height (distance) from the edge of the wheel rather than set up based on distance from the pocket to the edge of the cutter. This combined with several other engine tuning problems made it a real dog to grind with. I still am looking forward to fitting this frame with a larger engine, maybe a Briggs 35hp. Briggs is not my first choice, but seems to be the highest torque/hp rating I can locate that will bolt to the chassis without major pita.
Anyone have any experience with the Briggs 35's???

Beaver


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