# Side work



## treeguy020 (Mar 16, 2006)

Hey guys, I work for one of the big three tree companies and want to do some side work on the weekends. I would be doing most of my work in another area. My question is do I need a license to do work if I advertise in the paper? How much money can you make without paying taxes? I am not looking to make thousands of dollars, just enough to have a little green in my pocket instead of the lint. Let me know what you think.


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## footer (Mar 16, 2006)

Most cities/towns require a liscence, bond, and insurance, and I think you are supposed to claim any income you make and pay taxes on it. The taxes paid would be offset by your expenses. I wouldn't even attempt it without a liability policy.


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2006)

treeguy020 said:


> Hey guys, I work for one of the big three tree companies and want to do some side work on the weekends. I would be doing most of my work in another area. My question is do I need a license to do work if I advertise in the paper? How much money can you make without paying taxes? I am not looking to make thousands of dollars, just enough to have a little green in my pocket instead of the lint. Let me know what you think.


Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits, it is all here look in search, he is a RAT. And proud of it, there must be more like him out there. Done lots of side jobs, called buzz jobs here, nothing wrong with stuffing cash in your jeans. And yes, you will make thousands of dollars, it all adds up. Good luck to you, get personal insurance at the very least.


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2006)

I would not do ANY work on the side without carrying insurance. One little slip up is all it takes, and you think you're poor now? 

I would also hesitate to advertise overtly unless you're looking to get canned. Most of the larger companies take a dim view of their employees moonlighting.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits





Good for him! Nice to see there are still some honorable people out there.


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Good for him! Nice to see there are still some honorable people out there.


Another rat, great, how many tree guys out there have never done a side job for cash? Have any of you ever worked all day res. or utility and had a homeowner come over and say "can you cut down this tree for me?". "Yes ma'am, as soon as we are done here, go to the bank machine and get $200" Everyone has done it, don't lie. Mark, are you a treeguy or just a busybody that should be minding your own business?


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## SkiTown (Mar 16, 2006)

I say it's up to you, but you should probably get insurance at the very least. 

It would also be a little easier to swallow if you were using your own equipment, doing the work on your own time and in a different area than your employer.


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## treeguy020 (Mar 16, 2006)

Thanks for all the great advice. By the way I will not be using any of my employers equipment. I am on my own insurance, so that is not a problem. Getting liability insurance is not a bad idea (thanks footer). If you think of anything else please post.


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## jmack (Mar 16, 2006)

*yes*



treeguy020 said:


> Hey guys, I work for one of the big three tree companies and want to do some side work on the weekends. I would be doing most of my work in another area. My question is do I need a license to do work if I advertise in the paper? How much money can you make without paying taxes? I am not looking to make thousands of dollars, just enough to have a little green in my pocket instead of the lint. Let me know what you think.


oh h*ll yeah is what i think , i was'nt part of the big three so please advise. your time is your own. lots o folks cant handle the big corps prices. one spot i sold for if the job was too expensive or the folks were seniors or just sticker shocked i would give the name of one of our climbers who would do it on weekends we would give him the # and tell the folks they would be dealing with him direct, when i was in line clearance we put dudes on the road 4 days out, we would encourage them to stay another night for buzzys hell we even let them roll a bucket if they couldnt climb. every little bit helps out and let me tell you those gentlemen went to lengths to show thier appreciation ya got take care of each other no one else is gonna do it. if your young and your face shows it carry a big policy it will be expensive but if you get high end clients they wont care where your from, heck they want you to screw up so they can get to your juicy fat policy. rule one of buzzys you dont talk about buzzys because you dont do them rule two dont talk about buzzys. i mean to anyone in your organization and that goes for anyone in your truck tommorow or anyone holding your rope, if they come with you on a buzzy explain the rules and tell them if it ever comes up you will continue under stress with rule #1. its your life live the dream.


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## jmack (Mar 16, 2006)

*buzzing*



clearance said:


> Another rat, great, how many tree guys out there have never done a side job for cash? Have any of you ever worked all day res. or utility and had a homeowner come over and say "can you cut down this tree for me?". "Yes ma'am, as soon as we are done here, go to the bank machine and get $200" Everyone has done it, don't lie. Mark, are you a treeguy or just a busybody that should be minding your own business?


but your really buzzing when you do it right then and you roll the machine across the street


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## userdude (Mar 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits, it is all here look in search, he is a RAT.



TreeCo is a freakin' *$#&, he was when I was here a few years back and I see he still is. Hey TreeCo, I do buzz work every weekend...in your area, wanna come nark us out? Bring it!
treeguy020: Just do the jobs.


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## a_lopa (Mar 16, 2006)

get some keys cut to the dump truck/bucket


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Yeah man where you at this weekend?


There you go User dude, put him through the self feeder and all the guys doing buzz jobs can rest easy.


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Clearance only a fool would make such a suggestion. Keep going and you will have your buddy talking to the police.


Joking tool, why would buddy be going to the police? You are the rat and proud of it, you would be like Huggy Bear off Starsky and Hutch or Angel from the Rockford Files if you were on tv.


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## a_lopa (Mar 16, 2006)

if you really want to use company equipment sucker in your superior that a good $$$ will come his way,after youve used the equipment give him nothing he wont be able to do a thing.:greenchainsaw:


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2006)

a_lopa said:


> if you really want to use company equipment sucker in your superior that a good $$$ will come his way,after youve used the equipment give him nothing he wont be able to do a thing.:greenchainsaw:


Not cool.


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## a_lopa (Mar 16, 2006)

worked for me


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## Trignog (Mar 16, 2006)

Carry liab ins. Pay taxes....

In some cases just carrying ins. makes you more legit than a lot of guys.

I briefly worked for a small time guy who wanted me to sign a non compete clause. I just do word of mouth, friends and family work. As far as I'm concerned I have to be very well taken care of to sign a non compete clause.


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## Trignog (Mar 16, 2006)

Oh, and buy the way as far as N.A.R.C.S, I am getting darn close to ratting out insuransless bastards that take deposits and perform deplorable work with out an arborist licence.

Here in ct you need to be licensed to do anything but take downs, I worked damn hard to get that license and take pride in my work. I don't appreciate hacks making us all look bad. 
It's not a money thing.


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## John464 (Mar 16, 2006)

if my guys ever do a side job with my equipment w/o my consent. they are fired on the spot. that's borderline stealing!

they also are not to start their own side business. My reasoning is I allowed it. One of my guys actually starting handing his side job business cards to my customers and their neighbors. Also fired. It goes you are either with me or without me, there is no middle.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 16, 2006)

buzz jobs are everyone's right...some jobs don't need a whole crew or the owners can't pay that much...nothin wrong with keepin the cash economy going...government doesn't need its hand on every little transaction...that's part of the reason why i've got into this occupation.... i've done it for cash, for rent, for fish, prawns and moosemeat... on the weekend what i do is my own bidness...its also how i plan to get my own show going...as long as the work is good and noone gets hurt...give'r snot


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## Trignog (Mar 17, 2006)

If my tax dollars went to pay for universal health care I wouldn't pay taxes either. (As in Canadia) I pay for *my* health insuranse not yours.


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## Tree Wizard (Mar 17, 2006)

"if my guys ever do a side job with my equipment w/o my consent. they are fired on the spot. that's borderline stealing!"

I agree with John. However, I would say it is stealing. Are they buying fuel, doing repairs, replacing equipment they break? What about getting injured? Do they come in Monday and say, 'Oh by the way, I got hurt doing a sidejob and my personal insurance will take care of it.' Or do they just happen to get injured Monday morning on the job so the Company Workman's Comp takes care of it. (Been there on that one about 12 yrs ago)

Everyone that works for us knows that side jobbing with company equipment will get them fired, side jobbing (ie getting paid) with their own equipment will get them suspended.


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## userdude (Mar 17, 2006)

I brought this topic up while talking to a friend of mine who owns an upscale tree care business here in Atl. He doesn't mind the small fish getting the small jobs. Most of his clientele are repeat and refferals and the 'buzzards' are, in effect, weeding out the smaller jobs, keeping these customers from bothering him. 
I guess if you're established and doing good business and have months worth of work orders you don't sweat it as bad.


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## kayakvt (Mar 17, 2006)

My first climbing job the boss hooked us up... He insisted that we carry liability ins. if we were getting weekend work, but he helped us find good ins and even loaned me money to pay my first month... We was a high end company that charged good money for good work and if he quoted some work for someone who just couldn't/wouldn't pay that much, he'd give them my number and tell them to give me a call... He said he'd rather see me get the money and see the work done well than see it go to a hack and get, well, hacked... We had to have all our own gear for it, but again, he helped us out... The first day I passed his climbing test, he gave me a saddle to keep, when I started doing weekend work he gave me an old bull rope that he didn't use any more... Basically hooked me up pretty well... U used to pick up an easy 1000-1500 or so a month on those jobs...

Unfortunatly he moved, or I'd probably still be working for him... Went into straight up nursery operations...


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

> if my guys ever do a side job with my equipment w/o my consent. they are fired on the spot. that's borderline stealing!



There is no borderline, it is stealing. We are a small company and we have put everything into our business. If one of our guys did that and had an accident...let's say a rope through our new Vermeer BC1400 chipper or was rigging from the bucket and messed it up, or worse hurt someone... we could go under and lose everything we have worked so hard for years to build. You guys who work for big companies and think buzz jobs are so great should remember not everyone has deep pockets, and what your recommending is illegal. 

We give our guys extra $$ for the jobs they bring in. If they are doing any side jobs, it's not with our stuff...we check the mileage and the hours. 

Just think about it. You want to go out on your own someday...would you like someone to use your stuff without permission??


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## userdude (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> One commonality most side jobbers share is they don't have enough intelligence to make it in business for themselves. They prey on people with similar limitations. These people and their trees are the victims.
> Fortunately most side jobber's personal limitations impose ceilings on their financial success and usually they end up flipping burgers!



There you go generalizing...same thing you preach against in the 'bucket baby' thread.
Legit tree co.'s do that same type of crappy work. Afterall, the customer is the boss. If they want those trees topped, then top them. Or, you could preach to them about how harmful topping is and not get the job. Of course, that's a whole other topic.


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## mike385 (Mar 17, 2006)

I am not an arborist, never said I was one to anyone that I did side work for. I am a logger with felling ability. People have asked me to trim trees, I tell them find someone who can. All I can tell them is I know one cut and that is at the bottom of the tree. And yes, I have insurance and I pay taxes. But this is still a sideline.
mike


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## Trignog (Mar 17, 2006)

Really Tree co.? 20 years and never seen someone do good side work?

Maybe it's cause good work doesn't catch you eye like bad work does.


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Not only is it stealing but most of these yahoos are doing sub standard work, no insurance, no taxes, no business license, climbing with spikes to trim, topping, etc.
> 
> A good portion of the bad rap arborist are getting today is generated by the sub-standard practices and ethics of the side jobber.
> 
> ...


OK, rat, let me ask you something, how about when you do "legitimate" tree work and someone pays you in cash, do you always report every cent to Uncle Sam? Regardless of what you have to say, I am sure you don't, so you are doing "side" jobs in regards to being on the books, being legitimate, and so on. In others words a hip-O-crit.


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## jmack (Mar 17, 2006)

*ct*



Trignog said:


> Oh, and buy the way as far as N.A.R.C.S, I am getting darn close to ratting out insuransless bastards that take deposits and perform deplorable work with out an arborist licence.
> 
> Here in ct you need to be licensed to do anything but take downs, I worked damn hard to get that license and take pride in my work. I don't appreciate hacks making us all look bad.
> It's not a money thing.


oh yeah except in ct


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## jmack (Mar 17, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Not only is it stealing but most of these yahoos are doing sub standard work, no insurance, no taxes, no business license, climbing with spikes to trim, topping, etc.
> 
> A good portion of the bad rap arborist are getting today is generated by the sub-standard practices and ethics of the side jobber.
> 
> ...


 i got one went out to price prunes on two sweet hickorys, seen them just going out to have a meeting with the clients, got there and both hickorys are down i say what happened when they were at work the line clearance dudes took the trees down and sold the wood to next door neighbor! nice!


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## antigrassguy (Mar 17, 2006)

If your going to do side jobs, start a secondary business, take some pride in what and how you do it. Get the insurance, license if required, pay the taxes. Be ligit and you wont have to worry about whos watching, cause somebody always is. If you are involved in line clearance and are doing weekend res work, not a problem. Do the best job you can do for the trees and the customer, whos requests are not always correct. Take the time to help them understand proper tree care and most will know that your not a hack and respect you. Your resume is in the work you leave behind. Good clean job = good rep, crappy job(topping,peals,stubs) = crappy rep. If you under cut your boss on 1 job or take work away, you should be fired. Run a scam operation and it will bite you in the end. Respect yourself and others and take pride in what you do, it pays a whole lot more than a couple bucks in your pocket ever will.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 17, 2006)

so if my buddy or the little old lady next door has some storm damaged hanger am i supposed to say, here's my bosses card!!?? right! i use my own equipment, do the same job if not better cuz i'm not in a rush to get to the next job and you anti buzz jobs say this is stealing! Maybe if i'm out undercutting my employer's work, or its a tiny client base, or taking days off to do my own buzzie...that's no good.... but if its my own time and somebody wants a little job done...and most of them are little cuz its the weekend dammit...then its my right as a free man to do it... just cuz i work for a guy doesn't mean i'm his freakin slave...all the anti guys are obviously the bosses here, rakin' in all the cake! what happens on the down days when there's not much work? Do i demand my boss to pay me wages when there's no work or else? Gimme a break...I've never been mad at opinions on a thread till now!


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## TreeLady (Mar 17, 2006)

> i use my own equipment, do the same job if not better cuz i'm not in a rush to get to the next job and you anti buzz jobs say this is stealing!


 
Misunderstanding here. Earlier someone was talking about making a copy of keys and taking their the bosses equipment out to do side jobs. That is stealing. If you have your own equipment your time is yours and if you want to do tree work, more power to you. That's how we got started. That's probably how alot of people get started. There is nothing wrong with that and I wish you luck.


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## Dadatwins (Mar 17, 2006)

To do tree work in Virginia you need; 
A minimum class C contractors state License - $175.00
Without it you get caught (turned in) working and pay $200.00 
a day until it is processed.
Minimum 1 Million Liability insurance
1 person owner operator, no employees cost $900.00
Local county business license for each county you work in
Based on declared earnings, from 10k - 100k most charge 10.00 
for each license and then you pay taxes on the income for each 
county. Under 10k most have no fee. 
So for a bit over a grand a year and you can start your own part time tree business. Most employers are not going to be happy that you are doing side work, beware of any work comp claims presented to your current employer, they could be denied based on knowledge of your side business. Not going to get into the debate over paying the fees, insurance and taxes, or going at it cash only and hoping for the best. I have done it both ways, now I pay them and sleep better at night. Good Luck.


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## userdude (Mar 18, 2006)

1I'dJak said:


> ...all the anti guys are obviously the bosses here, rakin' in all the cake!



Or, maybe they're not 'rakin' in as much cake' as they'd like and gotta blame someone


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 18, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> Misunderstanding here. Earlier someone was talking about making a copy of keys and taking their the bosses equipment out to do side jobs. That is stealing. If you have your own equipment your time is yours and if you want to do tree work, more power to you. That's how we got started. That's probably how alot of people get started. There is nothing wrong with that and I wish you luck.



Treelady, I think you have people here who agree with you (I'm one) and you ALSO have some lowlifes who think it's fine to do side jobs with the bosses equipment.

Look back at what TreeCo was blasted for - turning in some employees who were doing side jobs with Asplundh equipment.

Good for TreeCo! 


But painting EVERYONE who does side work as a hack?

Bad for TreeCo!


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## coydog (Mar 18, 2006)

I always thought the argument that you could get" hurt doing a side job and not be able to perform at work" was pretty funny, If I want to go skiing or play rugby or whatever that's good american fun, If I want to be a blazing alcoholic and spend my evenings and weekends boozing it up thats fine too as long as I'm not drunk at work, but prune my buddies friends' apple trees on saturday because what my boss pays me to pump out his production work 40 plus hours a week isn't cutting it to pay my bills and feed my kids and somebody sees me ?" well we have a serious lifestyle problem here..."


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## coydog (Mar 18, 2006)

and for the folks here calling people who do side jobs crooks without the proper licensing/insurance,etc. I would ask you, would you be just as eager to call someone in the same boat but lets say in the carpentry or painting trade a crook if they built somebody a deck or helped somebody paint their house on their day off and accepted some cash for it?


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## Xtra (Mar 18, 2006)

One of my guys started doing side work. Unless it at his house, I feel it's a conflict and competition. 

He has no credit and asked me to buy him some rope and rigging gear and take it out of his pay. I said no way! 

If you want to do side work and act like a business. Then take the plunge and pay the "hidden" costs . . . insurance, taxes, maintenance, rent, marketing, etc. Otherwise you're just a hack, even if you do good work. 
And cause the rates to lower by underbidding.

If you really need the extra money that side work brings, then you're should have picked another company or profession that pays better.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 18, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Mark,
> 
> I don't know how much you know about arboriculture



Not much, but a lot more than I did before I found this site!



TreeCo said:


> but Clearance, who is a big proponent of 'side work' is a tree climber that SPIKES every tree he climbs. By definition in the USA spike climbing trees for trimming that are not encroaching on power lines is hack work.



But I know enough to know that! 




TreeCo said:


> Call 'em what you will but doing tree work without a business license, insurance, workers comp, paying taxes, etc. is illegal.




In most jurisdictions, yes, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that it's true everywhere.




TreeCo said:


> If these 'side jobbers' are legitimate then the work they do is not a 'side job' but instead is the normal operation of a legitimate business.




Well, we've had one business owner tell us that he has an arrangement whereby his guys do "side work" on small jobs that he doesn't want. As long as they are doing it legally, and have the permission of their employer, I don't see a problem with it.

I suspect that's a rare situation, though.



TreeCo said:


> So do the side jobbers measure up? Or are they mostly just crooks running an illegal business on the side?




Well, is it "mostly", or is it "all"? I suspect "mostly" is an accurate statement, just based on human nature. But it's kind of hard to make "all" statements stick.

But legality is one thing, quality is another. Good work can be done illegally, just as hack work can be done legally.


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## rebelman (Mar 18, 2006)

I think treeco tells it like it with most side jobs being hack work, but like someone said, hack work is also much more noticeable(usually.) 

I think you can pay like six hundred bucks cash to helpers before you have to report that.

Turning folks in though, I think it should be don't ask don't tell. If they follow standard, cut 'em some slack. Yes, if they prune to standard, be more lenient. Traditionally clearance crews I've known could get you a brand new saw cheap as hell. The pyramid structuring of foremen seemed almost like a front. Maybe standardizing clearance practices and enforcing that really is the way to clean up residential. Intiguing thread.


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## clearance (Mar 18, 2006)

Treeco never did answer my question/fact that he accepts cash for tree work and does not declare it to Uncle Sam, I don't care but when you come off like the sun shines outta your ass you should be able to defend your holyness. Fact is guys have been doing side jobs in whatever trade they are in since day one, guys, whether they be business owners or employees stuff undeclared cash in thier jeans everyday. Deny it, anyone? What about climbing removals with spurs?, most tree jobs here are removals, trees grow like weeds in the rainforest, so you are talking sh-- again. Some tree services don't pay a decent wage, overtime, jew thier guys every which way they can, and then get all upset about side jobs, get lost. Hypocrites, and Mark, why you licking Treecos boots?


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 18, 2006)

i don't need all that crap to go cut a few storm damaged limbs at my buddies house or to remove an alder tree with a busted off top at my in laws place... where i've done most of my 'side work' is at an area where there's no legitamate tree service... and to get there you gotta take a ferry to get there... when i'm visiting people want a few things done and i do it for cash money... undeclared... i don't have insurance yet... that's my risk... soon to be rectified as i plan to dedicate more time to this... it's not 'hack work'... i do a better job than when i'm working for my boss cuz i take my time... like buddy says, if a carpenter builds a deck on the weekend for some scratch is this a big crime? alot of folks can't afford prices that the certifieds give em... this cliquey arborist everybody does hack work but me my employees are my minions gets a bit much! Tommorow i'm doing some work for my landlords for a deal on rent... its all my equipement, but i have a pair of seceteer from work i might use... guess that makes me a scum and a thief!


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## coydog (Mar 19, 2006)

Xtra said:


> If you really need the extra money that side work brings, then you're should have picked another company or profession that pays better.


 This is exactly the attitude that makes it difficult for companies like yours to find production climber arborists who are worth their salt.


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## TreeLady (Mar 19, 2006)

> when i'm visiting people want a few things done and i do it for cash money... undeclared... i don't have insurance yet... that's my risk...



Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property. I know it's unlikely for you to hurt someone or damage property, because you know what you are doing. But you must admit in this business, accidents happen even to the best. Its going to be their property insurance paying for it if something happens. I don't think there's a problem with what you are doing as long as you are upfront with your friend and family about the risk THEY are taking, because it's not yours.


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## DDM (Mar 19, 2006)

Last Saturday morning i noticed a crew for a well known Large company doing a removal over a house.On my way back home later that day i noticed a large leader on the house. Since this company does not work on saturdays i know they were side jobbing. So Who payed for the house Damage? I'll assure you the big company wont As they probably werent aware it was going on.So Who pays for it? The homeowner? He will probably Sue the big company since it was there equipment on site.


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## Xtra (Mar 19, 2006)

CoyDog,
I do pay some of the higher rates in my area.
I'm the main climber because good climbers just aren't available by me. An experienced climber/foreman could easily make $250 - 300/day with me. Most guys I interview are chop & drop hacks, who bomb client's lawns and don't care or want to learn about safety and the workings of a real business, but I don't want to hijack this subject with that problem.

Side work is just quick easy money and most guys feel it's their right to be able to do side work. I even offer my guys referral fees to discourage side work. And the side work I'm talking about are large jobs not just trim a branch or help out a relative.

My take is if the guy doesn't own the proper equipment (and insurance) then they shouldn't attempt the job. And if they do have the equipment then why not go into business for themselves and experience the rewarding life of a tree service company owner. :bang:


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## Trignog (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey x-tra

You say 250-300 $ for a day. Do you mean with out taxes and wc witheld?
If so that makes sense.

Should I move down to Jersey?


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## clearance (Mar 19, 2006)

Xtra said:


> CoyDog,
> I do pay some of the higher rates in my area.
> I'm the main climber because good climbers just aren't available by me. An experienced climber/foreman could easily make $250 - 300/day with me.


Could, could, do you pay climbers $250-300 a day? or is this just a could kind of deal? Regarding the 'chop and drop hacks" I could lower everything but I think it is wrong to run the bill up on a customer, to "save" a little piece of thier lawn, ripoff. I can strip and chunk a 100' + fir and throw all the blocks into a 4'x4' size piece of lawn. Just saying, you brought it up. Here is an idea for everyone, mind your own freaking business.


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## jmack (Mar 19, 2006)

*tree lady*



TreeLady said:


> Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property. I know it's unlikely for you to hurt someone or damage property, because you know what you are doing. But you must admit in this business, accidents happen even to the best. Its going to be their property insurance paying for it if something happens. I don't think there's a problem with what you are doing as long as you are upfront with your friend and family about the risk THEY are taking, because it's not yours.


hey there tree lady, any way you would be surprised when homeowners approach crew because they dont want the bosses company they want the buzz rates


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## jmack (Mar 19, 2006)

*doubtful*



DDM said:


> Last Saturday morning i noticed a crew for a well known Large company doing a removal over a house.On my way back home later that day i noticed a large leader on the house. Since this company does not work on saturdays i know they were side jobbing. So Who payed for the house Damage? I'll assure you the big company wont As they probably werent aware it was going on.So Who pays for it? The homeowner? He will probably Sue the big company since it was there equipment on site.


 no knowledge of his equipment there on the job i say it falls to the homeowner for hiring uninsured i guess they had some splaining to do


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## jmack (Mar 19, 2006)

clearance said:


> Could, could, do you pay climbers $250-300 a day? or is this just a could kind of deal? Regarding the 'chop and drop hacks" I could lower everything but I think it is wrong to run the bill up on a customer, to "save" a little piece of thier lawn, ripoff. I can strip and chunk a 100' + fir and throw all the blocks into a 4'x4' size piece of lawn. Just saying, you brought it up. Here is an idea for everyone, mind your own freaking business.


 yeah but here we got landscape lights irrigation staues fountains everything breakable imaginable in the 4x4 area.


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## TreeLady (Mar 19, 2006)

> hey there tree lady, any way you would be surprised when homeowners approach crew because they dont want the bosses company they want the buzz rates



Not suprised at all...people actually come up to our guys to see if they will cut down trees for the firewood only.  Those people know why they are getting the low price, so if their house gets smashed that's their problem.


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## coydog (Mar 20, 2006)

Xtra said:


> Side work is just quick easy money and most guys feel it's their right to be able to do side work. I even offer my guys referral fees to discourage side work. And the side work I'm talking about are large jobs not just trim a branch or help out a relative.
> 
> My take is if the guy doesn't own the proper equipment (and insurance) then they shouldn't attempt the job. And if they do have the equipment then why not go into business for themselves and experience the rewarding life of a tree service company owner. :bang:


 A company I used to work for had a zero tolerance for sidework policy, They also did landscaping which meant you could be fired for mowing lawns on the weekend. They were a good company to work for otherwise but one was not going to get rich working for them either. End result, evrybody did sidework, nobody talked about it, ... its a very frustating situation to be in for those that don't have the capital or the will to go out on their own(been there done that,) especially for those who have their own gear and are not stealing clients. 
Now if somebody wants to go out on weekends and do big nasty technical removals over houses with no insurance, it very well may catch up with them My own personal common sense tells me to go for the easy low risk jobs like the side job I did today(on a sunday!) a very polite and easy light thinning of a couple young doug firs, a crabapple, a few cherry saplings and a rhodie. All the brush fit neatly into the back of my pickup and I hardly had to fire up the 020 but once or twice. About the worst damage I could have done to the clients property would be a broken plant,the neighbors didn't even notice I was there, I suppose I could have fallen out of the doug fir if I had some kind of wild unforseen seizure and cut my lifeline and flipline simultaneously, but that would have been my problem anyway. I'd be highly surprised if anyone who casually inspected the landscape would even notice that the trees had been pruned, much less label it as a hack job but according to some people I'm a crook and a hack just for doing side jobs. I don't worry about getting fired anymore because I've moved on but I will say this, I do sidejobs for one simple reason, to pay the bills. Now I applaud you if you are paying your climbers well, but my earlier point was aimed at the general attitude shared by many companies and individuals alike which you put so eloquently that perhaps I(meaning one who does side work) should find another company or profession. This tends to thin the pool of qualified professional arborists that aren't starting their own tree service because it creates a catch 22 situation, My boss doesn't pay me enough so I need to do sidejobs, I don't want to be illegal so I get a business license, etc. oh but I can't because if my boss finds out about I'll get fired, so why the hell am I involved in this thankless dead end profession? better start my own tree service or do something else, either way one less potential employee for you and/or more competition.


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## jmack (Mar 20, 2006)

*bad*



TreeLady said:


> Not suprised at all...people actually come up to our guys to see if they will cut down trees for the firewood only.  Those people know why they are getting the low price, so if their house gets smashed that's their problem.


your people are that bad without your gear?


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 20, 2006)

As far as I am concerned if you use the companies equipment without out the consent of the owner, its not the supervisors equipment, then you are stealing. I knew a kid once who works for one of the big guys that now has is very own spikes, ropes, saddle, etc. and guess what...he didn't buy them. He signed that "no competition" form but he still does work on the side. If you want to do side "small" side jobs get some landscapers insurance. I am almost positive that allows you to be as high and a 12+ foot ladder and fell and buck up smaller trees. Go do those little trees because I like others probably do not want to be bothered by them anyway. By no means though go and do large jobs without insurance b/c that is hack work and should not be tolerated. I also want to answer Clearence's question about not paying Uncle Sam, that is not even in the same category. TreeCo is still paying insurance/comp/wages/etc. as we all are, and as the owner it is up to me where I put that money. If it doesn't go in the company bank account then all you are doing is paying out for all your expenses but not putting anything back to cover your costs. If anything did happen and you had to use comp or insurance claims then you are still covered, it is by no means like an employee going out with his buddys and trying to make some extra $$$ on the weekends.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Well it certainly doesn't sound like you are a hack.
> 
> Let's see if crook fits: (I saw the word 'dishonest' was used in the definition of crook so I included it too though I must admit to some editing.)
> 
> ...


Too funny, you will not answer my question/fact about not declaring all your income to Uncle Sam, even funnier how Lumberjacked says he is going to answer my question about this and then doesn't. Hipocrites, both of you , get lost, peddle you self rightous BS somewhere else.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 20, 2006)

antigrassguy said:


> If your going to do side jobs, start a secondary business, take some pride in what and how you do it. Get the insurance, license if required, pay the taxes. Be ligit and you wont have to worry about whos watching, cause somebody always is. I.... Respect yourself and others and take pride in what you do, it pays a whole lot more than a couple bucks in your pocket ever will.


 



Xtra said:


> If you want to do side work and act like a business. Then take the plunge and pay the "hidden" costs . . . insurance, taxes, maintenance, rent, marketing, etc. Otherwise you're just a hack, even if you do good work.
> And cause the rates to lower by underbidding.


 



clearance said:


> Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits, it is all here look in search, he is a RAT.





clearance said:


> Treeco never did answer my question/fact that he accepts cash for tree work and does not declare it to Uncle Sam, I don't care but when you come off like the sun shines outta your ass you should be able to defend your holyness.


*What the crap, clearance. *You come up with the most outrageous stuff on a regular basis. If I knew you better, how would you like it if I started skewering you on your life? With a clear conscious, can you tell me that you've been a perfect person? Have you ever done something that you would do again but wouldn't recommend to someone? Sheesh, of course. You're saying TreeCo is guilty of a witch hunt then you turn around and start a witch hunt yourself! Hypocrite! It's sickening! I can't believe you do this in the same thread!



TreeLady said:


> Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property.


Exactly. There are cases of this. You screw up without insurance? Regardless of who's equipment was on the property, *it's the homeowner's responsibility*. Take a look at the cases where this has happened! You seriously think the insurance company for homeowner will pay for this? No! Do you think the insurance company for the company that owned the equipment will volunteer to pay for this? No! It's the homeowner's fault that they didn't hire someone with insurance. Again, look at the cases, even if they ask for a certificate of insurance, unless they get a copy of it, their homeowner's policy will not pay a dime. This gets really scary when a homeowner is responsible for a crewmembers injury or death. It's happened.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

Nick, I really think you are getting a little hysterical, I don't think outrageous really fits what I have said. Never claimed to be perfect here ever once, Treeco is constantly criticising and is also proud to be a rat, therefore I feel it is incumbent on him to justify his actions after pulling the goody goody two shoes BS. Now, take some deep breaths, take a couple of Midol, settle down and explain to me why you are so upset.


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## TreeLady (Mar 20, 2006)

> your people are that bad without your gear?



Do you honestly think it's impossible for you (or anyone) to have an accident on a side job? No matter whos gear it is? Are you just so much smarter and better than the rest of the industry? 

Listen, our company doesn't forbid employees from doing side jobs. We don't have to. An employment relationship is based on trust and we take our responsibility very seriously. We pay them well, give bonuses and $$ for referrals, and they are glad to have their weekends for their families.
And if they did decide to go do side jobs, as long as they don't use our gear, I don't care. It's not like it's going to cost us any business. There are tons of full-time, "off the books" no insurance tree guys knocking on doors around here...everyday.


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 20, 2006)

Lets set somthing stright here, I dont go around and say well Mrs.Johnson your tree will be $400 dollars removed or $300 removed if you pay me cash. But I will be god damned if I work my a$$ of 6 days a week to NOT take a couple hundred dollars in cash so I can take my girlfriend to dinner or go buy somthing that I want. That my friends is true BS and ignorence. The govt &%#@'$ us every day, I dont think uncle sam is going to miss a couple hundred dollars out of the tens of hundreds of thousands that I am taxed on every year. As far as not answering your question maybe you should re-read after you take _your_ midol. Why would I be agreeing to taking a few cash jobs if I didnt myself??


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

Lumberjacked said:


> Lets set somthing stright here, I dont go around and say well Mrs.Johnson your tree will be $400 dollars removed or $300 removed if you pay me cash. But I will be god damned if I work my a$$ of 6 days a week to NOT take a couple hundred dollars in cash so I can take my girlfriend to dinner or go buy somthing that I want. That my friends is true BS and ignorence. The govt &%#@'$ us every day, I dont think uncle sam is going to miss a couple hundred dollars out of the tens of hundreds of thousands that I am taxed on every year. As far as not answering your question maybe you should re-read after you take _your_ midol. Why would I be agreeing to taking a few cash jobs if I didnt myself??


I do not care if people stuff thier jeans full of undeclared cash, never have, go ahead and do it all you can, I do. My point is that Treeco, who has talked now at length about side jobs done by "hacks" being so wrong for many reasons one of which is, according to him because it is for cash, undeclared. So let him, the dogooder, upright man that he portrays himself to be tell us he doesn't do what "hacks" do, that is take cash, and not declare it. He is a hypocrite. That is my point, get it? Nick, have you calmed down yet?


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## Nickrosis (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm feeling fine, sipping away on a caffeine-free soda right now. Never have had a menstrual cycle, so I skipped your Midol prescription.

Here's how I see it: You're maligning a good person. Dan - TreeCo - is calling out people who are stealing equipment from their employers. He has an opinion about side work, but he's not moved to action over it, just over theft.

You're holding his feet to the fire over a matter of tangential relation. The tax code aside, the relation is whether he - as an official business concern - is operating in a manner similar to those he is opposing - the unofficial side jobbers. He has insurance, the proper business documentation, collects sales tax, pays withholding, whatever. If 1% of the business is carried out in cash - say dumping some chips or firewood for a neighbor instead of driving back - there is a huge difference, a seriously _huge_ difference than a company that is carrying on 1(add a couple zeros)00% in cash!

We're talking 99% here. Perhaps 100% since he still hasn't answered and doesn't have to. I think his silence more accurately portrays a desire to invalidate your question than to settle a score that you've imagined to exist. Let's leave each other alone and focus on other things. Instead of tearing each other down, let's be constructive.

Side work for friends and family is not side work. It's taking care of people. Running a business like a yahoo and not paying taxes is another story. Instead of picking over some cash, how about pick a fight with a "company" that doesn't pay withholding.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

Nick, hi, glad you are ok, now look here, Treeco has taken an interest, he has taken pictures of and ratted out Asplundh guys using company equip. on the side, he has taken pictures and turned in people for doing treework without permits. He has called people names, he has told me he is trying to have me banned. His silence does not invalidate my question, I figure he doesn't want to answer it because he doesn't want to lie or tell the truth. I will say it again, for about the 10th time, I couldn't give a flying fig if people stuff cash into thier jeans. My point here is analogeous to a preacher like Jimmy Swaggart telling people how to live a good clean life while at the same time banging hookers on the side. All I am saying is that one should maintain a consistent life philosophy, do you have a problem with that?


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## Nickrosis (Mar 20, 2006)

No problem at all.

As a business owner, I know it comes out a wash. In the past six months, I've gotten $105 in cash. On the flip side, I've spent nearly $1000 of after-tax personal dollars for company expenses for a variety of reasons, mostly because I don't want to burden the company. Sum of this: the IRS is winning even though I've gotten paid cash. Again, what the CRAP are you making such a big deal about this? Wow.

:deadhorse: 

Personal aside, Mrs. ArboristSite deleted a post of mine a looong time ago when I posted an actual picture of a dead horse getting beaten. Now it's a smiley. Oh well...

Of course you don't think his non-answer invalidates your question, that's your view. Not everyone shares your view. To add to that, my view of your view on cash. You should pay taxes on that money because a) it's the law, b) you'll then shoulder your share of the tax burden, and c) it'll put you in a credible position to be pointing other people's flaws.


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## rebelman (Mar 20, 2006)

Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews. Ridiculing real arborists.Tearing them down somehow. For every hundred clearances there is one TreeCo, one Nickrosis, one Mike Maas, one Treeseer, one Tom Dunlap, one Rebelman... For every one hundred clearances there is a real arborist. It's obvious nobody will out post you clearance, but we don't have to dignify each of your silly challenges with a response.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 20, 2006)

We could take turns.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews. Ridiculing real arborists.Tearing them down somehow. For every hundred clearances there is one TreeCo, one Nickrosis, one Mike Maas, one Treeseer, one Tom Dunlap, one Rebelman... For every one hundred clearances there is a real arborist. It's obvious nobody will out post you clearance, but we don't have to dignify each of your silly challenges with a response.


Like Tom Dunlap, when the going gets tough and you cannot continue the talk with facts, sticking to the topic at hand, you go off on another rant, this time attacking me and other decent hardworking guys. I got news for you buddy, you are not the tree god, you don't have all the answers, the sun doesn't shine out of your ass. You remind me a lot of a politician, never answering anything directly, attacking the opponent, in other words, a cull.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 20, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews. Ridiculing real arborists.Tearing them down somehow. For every hundred clearances there is one TreeCo, one Nickrosis, one Mike Maas, one Treeseer, one Tom Dunlap, one Rebelman... For every one hundred clearances there is a real arborist. It's obvious nobody will out post you clearance, but we don't have to dignify each of your silly challenges with a response.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


>


Not even a tree guy, hard time climbing out of bed, never mind trees, a bootlicker.


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## treeseer (Mar 20, 2006)

jmack said:


> ...when they were at work the line clearance dudes took the trees down and sold the wood to next door neighbor! nice!


That sounds like grist for a lawsuit. If the victims want an appraisal pm me. Sidejobbers doing substandard illegal work can and should get their just rewards. Putting wear and tear on your boss's stuff is stealing from your boss.

What goes around comes around.

Clarence, your analogy between ripoff sidejobbing and bookkeeping issues is a looonnng strrrrretch. Rip!


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

treeseer said:


> That sounds like grist for a lawsuit. If the victims want an appraisal pm me. Sidejobbers doing substandard illegal work can and should get their just rewards. Putting wear and tear on your boss's stuff is stealing from your boss.
> 
> What goes around comes around.
> 
> Clarence, your analogy between ripoff sidejobbing and bookkeeping issues is a looonnng strrrrretch. Rip!


Really? Seems to me when people come off like thier sh8t doesn't stink then they are asking for all their practices to be questioned. Not that I would ever turn someone in, cause unlike some here I am not a rat. Just saying it, like the others, you to can give it but you can't take it.


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## userdude (Mar 20, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews.



So, get over it ladies. Nothin' you can do 'cept ????? and moan like TreeLo and the gang.
I WISH I could spot that b#@&* taking pics of me and my guys doin and buzz...furthermore, my company would laugh at you for the call in.
PinkRidgeMarge: Get off the nuts already!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 20, 2006)

You sound like a liberal, userdude.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> You sound like a liberal, userdude.


Mark, what are you doing here? You are not a treeguy, not worthy to speak to the topic, go away.


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## mikecross23 (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know why I read this entire thread from start to finish.

Clearance, your outbursts sicken me. 

Keeping employees happy is important. I pass off small side jobs to my guys. I've even told them to take my equipment on a rare occation as long as it's a low risk job. Side work doesn't bother me, however if/when I catch them going behind my back to obtain side work at my expense there will be problems. I make it clear to the customer and my employee(s) that I am no longer involved and that there is no insurace covering anyone. 

Side work doesn't bother me too much, but Clearance you're out of control dude. If I was a moderator I'd can your [email protected]@.


-Mike-


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2006)

mikecross23 said:


> I don't know why I read this entire thread from start to finish.
> 
> Clearance, your outbursts sicken me.
> 
> ...


 Thats real American Mike, censor unpopular speech, constitution lover you are not. What have I said that bothers your sensitive mind so much? Maybe rattled your feathers a little? suck it up.


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 20, 2006)

I wonder if Treeguy020's question has been answered yet?...hmmm


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## mikecross23 (Mar 20, 2006)

clearance said:


> Thats real American Mike, censor unpopular speech, constitution lover you are not. What have I said that bothers your sensitive mind so much? Maybe rattled your feathers a little? suck it up.



American I am, constitution lover ehhhh don't care too much, do love the 2nd amendment though. Feathers stihl good. 

Consider it sucked.

I'd still ban your ass!

Love,
-Mike-


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 20, 2006)

clearance said:


> censor unpopular speech



Unpopular? Nah, worthless. There's a big difference.


BTW, I'd explain why I'm participating, but you don't even get why this issue is the business of other tree guys, so why bother?


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## Trignog (Mar 20, 2006)

rebelman said:


> Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews. Ridiculing real arborists.Tearing them down somehow. For every hundred clearances there is one TreeCo, one Nickrosis, one Mike Maas, one Treeseer, one Tom Dunlap, one Rebelman... For every one hundred clearances there is a real arborist. It's obvious nobody will out post you clearance, but we don't have to dignify each of your silly challenges with a response.




Don't forget Trignog representing 1% of my little niche of central Ct!


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## stihlatit (Mar 21, 2006)

clearance said:


> Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits, it is all here look in search, he is a RAT. And proud of it, there must be more like him out there. Done lots of side jobs, called buzz jobs here, nothing wrong with stuffing cash in your jeans. And yes, you will make thousands of dollars, it all adds up. Good luck to you, get personal insurance at the very least.



One day he will choke on his cheese.


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## coydog (Mar 21, 2006)

mikecross23 said:


> Keeping employees happy is important. I pass off small side jobs to my guys. I've even told them to take my equipment on a rare occation as long as it's a low risk job. Side work doesn't bother me, however if/when I catch them going behind my back to obtain side work at my expense there will be problems. I make it clear to the customer and my employee(s) that I am no longer involved and that there is no insurace covering anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> -Mike-


well according to treeco you and I and every employee of yours that's done sidework is a dishonest crook


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## coydog (Mar 21, 2006)

Lumberjacked said:


> If you want to do side "small" side jobs get some landscapers insurance. I am almost positive that allows you to be as high and a 12+ foot ladder and fell and buck up smaller trees. Go do those little trees because I like others probably do not want to be bothered by them anyway. By no means though go and do large jobs without insurance b/c that is hack work and should not be tolerated. $$$ on the weekends.


 and if they climb over 12 feet then they are hacks no matter what the quality of work according to others
oh but stealing from the IRS occasionaly, well ...that's not the same, nothing dishonest there


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 21, 2006)

Hey Coydowg it has nothing to do with the "quality" of work, I honestly dont doubt any of you when it comes to quality. It has everything to do with being uninsured and doing any type of "tree work." I was only stating that IF those guys wanted to do smaller jobs for a couple of extra $$$ then that is an alternative. Think of it this way, you go do a "buzz" tree job and the unthinkable happens, you get hurt. You have no insurance, and it goes on the homeowners insurance. They then sue YOU not your company and you lose everything that is in your name. That includes your house, cars, all your gear, anything that has value. Then where are you? 

And....
I have a REAL hard time believing that none of you have ever taken cash jobs. If you did your own taxes then you would know that ANY income that you bring in, I dont care if your mommies gave you $50 to clean out her back yard, that is INCOME! and it is taxable according to the IRS. You will have to excuse me though I have to go steal from the govt.


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## TreeLady (Mar 21, 2006)

> you did your own taxes then you would know that ANY income that you bring in, I dont care if your mommies gave you $50 to clean out her back yard, that is INCOME! and it is taxable according to the IRS. You will have to excuse me though I have to go steal from the govt.



LOL!


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## doggonetrees (Mar 21, 2006)

When I was working for the power company, it was encouraged to take side jobs to further our education on the total tree removal/trimming concept. The good thing about this was the fact we weren't stealing money from our employer because we were actually saving them money- because the company is a member owned co-op. The gear, including the saws, were assigned to the employee. The only thing we didn't have was a bucket or chipper. Perhaps, the big time guys on here could use this concept- cut back on wages and use the money to give the necessary equipment to their employees. The theft issue would be gone, and the equipment would be cared for- ropes coiled correctly, saw gaurds enplace, etc. Just my 2 cents worth. I have 2 employees and this works well for me- but I do make them carry an insurance rider for their " off-time" work.


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## wradman (Mar 21, 2006)

*phew*

it's getting thick in here lol


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## chippermaster01 (Mar 21, 2006)

*you said it*

you said it...


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## jmack (Mar 22, 2006)

*tea lady*



TreeLady said:


> Do you honestly think it's impossible for you (or anyone) to have an accident on a side job? No matter whos gear it is? Are you just so much smarter and better than the rest of the industry?
> 
> Listen, our company doesn't forbid employees from doing side jobs. We don't have to. An employment relationship is based on trust and we take our responsibility very seriously. We pay them well, give bonuses and $$ for referrals, and they are glad to have their weekends for their families.
> And if they did decide to go do side jobs, as long as they don't use our gear, I don't care. It's not like it's going to cost us any business. There are tons of full-time, "off the books" no insurance tree guys knocking on doors around here...everyday.


 tree lady i dont do sides #1, #2 you cannot dictate how a person spends there off hrs although many employers would love to. when i did do sides i never had an accident and i carried 7mil because and i know that s happens. to the guy that first posted the question go for it and make as much as you can! bid careful and... go around to other cos and suggest they hire you for a day of cash, for removals that there climbers cant refuse or wont do or that the bucket cant get to, a good way to learn and meet people.


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## jmack (Mar 22, 2006)

*two way street*



rebelman said:


> Guys like clearance are everywhere. Every utility crew in every county and province. Every bar. Many residential crews. Ridiculing real arborists.Tearing them down somehow. For every hundred clearances there is one TreeCo, one Nickrosis, one Mike Maas, one Treeseer, one Tom Dunlap, one Rebelman... For every one hundred clearances there is a real arborist. It's obvious nobody will out post you clearance, but we don't have to dignify each of your silly challenges with a response.


guys its both ways utility guys get heaped on by us the public the media towns, i think we should respect each other and realize that in order to be strong we need to come together and put this behind us.


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## jmack (Mar 22, 2006)

*ny isa*



Lumberjacked said:


> Hey Coydowg it has nothing to do with the "quality" of work, I honestly dont doubt any of you when it comes to quality. It has everything to do with being uninsured and doing any type of "tree work." I was only stating that IF those guys wanted to do smaller jobs for a couple of extra $$$ then that is an alternative. Think of it this way, you go do a "buzz" tree job and the unthinkable happens, you get hurt. You have no insurance, and it goes on the homeowners insurance. They then sue YOU not your company and you lose everything that is in your name. That includes your house, cars, all your gear, anything that has value. Then where are you?
> 
> And....
> I have a REAL hard time believing that none of you have ever taken cash jobs. If you did your own taxes then you would know that ANY income that you bring in, I dont care if your mommies gave you $50 to clean out her back yard, that is INCOME! and it is taxable according to the IRS. You will have to excuse me though I have to go steal from the govt.


 yo ease up on the guys mom first mr. ny isa, uh i dont think they can come after the side guy the onus is on the homeowner for checking ins, lics and that sort o thing and why are you stealing from the gov is that in the ny chap by-laws


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 22, 2006)

hahaha....I love it, you make it sound like I am taking tens of thousands of dollars from the govt. I am _only_ saying that on smaller jobs where I get cash I might keep some of it. If you can honestly say and swear on everything that is holy to you that you have NEVER taken cash for a job then I think you should bring it down a little. As far as our moms are concerned It was not directed toward anyone or meant to be derogatory in any-way-shape-or-form. When it boils right down to it I don't care what you guys do as long as no one gets hurt! I was simply conveying my thoughts on the question at hand.


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## rebelman (Mar 22, 2006)

jmack said:


> i think we should respect each other and realize that in order to be strong we need to come together and put this behind us.



word


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## a_lopa (Mar 22, 2006)

anyone knocking a r.o.w guy for doing a "cashie" with company equipment needs a reality check.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 23, 2006)

a_lopa said:


> anyone knocking a r.o.w guy for doing a "cashie" with company equipment needs a reality check.


It's begging the question. Aussie, why's that? What makes it okay?


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## clearance (Mar 23, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> It's begging the question. Aussie, why's that? What makes it okay?


Probably the same reason it is ok here, Nick if you have to ask at this point you haven't been paying attention.


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## Climb020 (Mar 23, 2006)

Side work is fine by me. It's about time we take back from the government the sooooo many times they have bent us all over backwards. TreeCo do US all a favor and round up the illegals immagrants so most tree companys will have good work and good help. Hate it when customers put notes on the trees in spanish. If you want to do tree work TreeCO then do it. If you want to be a rat then go be a cop. I'm 21 years old so bosses [email protected] me over all the time because of my age and not what I can do. So side work is need times through out the year to make ends meet.

Only do low key side work if you aren't insured. It only takes that one wind gust or that one bad crotch it mess it all up. Might be the customers responsiblity for any damages but once they find out your not legal and you put a log through there living room they'll make sure the IRS find you.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 23, 2006)

clearance said:


> Probably the same reason it is ok here, Nick if you have to ask at this point you haven't been paying attention.


Wasn't asking you, ace.


Climb020 said:


> TreeCo do US all a favor and round up the illegals immagrants so most tree companys will have good work and good help. Hate it when customers put notes on the trees in spanish.


You're nuts. Back when I was 21 in 2004, people didn't say stuff like that. At any rate, I love working in Spanish! I just translated four pages of our meeting minutes into Spanish.


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 23, 2006)

The simple reality is that tree service employees are always going to do "side work." Every industry out there has employees doing side work. Who wouldn't? You see that big money the company is pulling in and want some of that for yourself on the weekend. It would be hard to convince somebody not to go out and make their normal weekly salary in a single day.

Get over it.


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## Nickrosis (Mar 23, 2006)

Hey, who's arguing against side work?!? It's about the uninsured, incompetent ones stealing equipment.


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 23, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> Hey, who's arguing against side work?!? It's about the uninsured, incompetent ones stealing equipment.




Well, that was me at one point (hopefully never incompetent), so I can't condemn those guys. But now I'm trying to run my own legitimate arborist service and can appreciate the problem of competing with guys who aren't "playing by the rules." I just think they're always going to be there.
My boss let us check out tools, saws, and gear for side work. Bring a load of brush to the shop and run it through the chipper. I know one local service that lets its employees use trucks, chippers, and cranes on the weekends.


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## adkranger (Mar 24, 2006)

Treeguy020: should you do your own work on your own time? Absolutely. For many new, aspiring climbers it's your only recourse to gain the skills & gear necessary to be a top climber. I've worked for large, interstate residencial/commercial tree co.s, small res. tree co.s, utility r.o.w. tree co.s and finally for myself. I am now a humble civil servant, that makes me a 100 percent buzzy in terms of my arborculture career at this time, not at all a conflict since my current "paycheck" career is not in arborculture. My take is you use your own gear, bid appropriately, treat customers as you would like to be treated, stay within your ablility as much as possible, complete reputable work you can be proud of and don't directly compete against your boss by bidding on jobs in his/her backyard that they would normally bid on. You may need to get a few jobs under your belt to afford gear, all my initial proceeds went to gear I think, maybe some beer too. All of us treeguys are gadget hounds by nature aren't we??

As far as insurance, licenses, permits, etc..... do what's appropriate when you can. It's a Catch 22 for some here to suggest a new guy run right out to get ins. without actually having the income to get it.... I think there's a lot of green envy here and a despirate need to control lurking in this thread. In the end CYA(Cover Your Ass) because no one else will, if you're doing sporty T/Ds and taking in decent proceeds, by all means acquire insurance and do it right.

Every industry in this great country of ours has contractor guys doing side work, buzzies, cashies and whatever else you want to call it. Many times using the oldest form of commerce known to man, barter. I've done jobs for rent, equipment, commodities, beer and even motorcycles. That's what makes this country a great capitalistic society. Over control is for communists and socialists.

To paint all side workers or buzzies as crooks, vagabonds and general tree hackers is completely outrageous. I've done many side jobs were I had to "fix" or undo the work of overworked, hurried "professionals" and I remember being on that side too. Being pushed by a low balling sales-slug, who knows diddly squat 'bout climbing and being told not to interact with the customer period, even when the company is not meeting their expectations. I've found that not only are customers getting the work done cheaper by buzzing, but getting a higher standard of customer service as well when the crew is not being driven by the commision rate and high overhead nut clock. But let me not paint all the fine, professional tree co. owners/operators here with the same broad brush of criticism that they are spreading. I'm sure their companies complete good work, they work hard and treat their customers well, just wanted to give a view of the other side. There is a huge side benefit for company owners with their guys doing sides, they gain more experience than their tight time schedules allow for and their guys are likely to buy equipment they'll use on the company's time. Bottom line is, my time is my time and what I do with it is my business. Unless you want to pay me sit on my couch and watch March Madness on my time.


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## oldugly (Mar 24, 2006)

Worked for Asplundh for many years...always did side jobs, never used their equipment, never even bid a job on company time. Whenever I work for someone else, my time belongs to them...I sell it by the hour, if I am working on a side job on their time..I am stealing..The same would apply if I used their equipment on my time. I have never been a thief, and loathe the idea of one.
I have my insurance now, and my own business. I've had several emplyees that have worked the cash jobs on the weekends, but the same deal applies..never my equipment, and never on my time. There have been occasions when they have even asked me to help them on the weekends...it was kind of fun to NOT be the one in charge for awhile.
Right now I am in a sub-contract on a r.o.w. line. Drawn in the contract between the general contractor and myself is a self-interest pursuit clause that states we are in no ways limiting our business pursuits to this contract. As long as the needs of the contract are fulfilled we are free to build up our own business as we see fit, and have opportunity to do so. 
So maybe I am out of place posting on this thread. I don't really have a soapbox to stand on.. like a few people here seem to. I am just an honest and hardworking old tree man..nothin' fancy, and kind of boring. But I thought if everybody else could weigh in on this..what the hell.


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## a_lopa (Mar 24, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> It's begging the question. Aussie, why's that? What makes it okay?




r.o.w guys are the biggest single group in the tree industry earning the least.



companys hate r.o.w guys having a go in domestic tree work???anyone disagree haha


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## a_lopa (Mar 24, 2006)

true true, ever feel like a dog chasing its tail??ha


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## TreeLady (Mar 24, 2006)

Anyone out there that thinks all of the owners are just raking it in, then calling people crooks for trimming their mom's trees on the weekend needs a reality check. Yes, big company ceo's rake it in, and even small companys that are well established. But for every one of them there are probably a hundred that tried and failed. If you are brand new, and running a business is OJT, guess who's paycheck dosen't get cashed if funds get tight at the end of the month? I would love to keep the $8,000.00 we pay on July 1 every year for insurance. I don't know about the future, but right now we are working alot more for less money than when we worked for someone else.

No one should be painting with a wide brush on either side of this argument.


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## alanarbor (Mar 24, 2006)

oldugly said:


> Whenever I work for someone else, my time belongs to them...I sell it by the hour, if I am working on a side job on their time..I am stealing..The same would apply if I used their equipment on my time. I have never been a thief, and loathe the idea of one.



Lock the thread now........What needed to be said has finally been articulated in a coherent manner!


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 24, 2006)

The policy that I had was that anyone on the crew who walked over and sold a job while they worked for me got 10% of the price. If a neighbor walked over to get an estimate that I had to do there was no commission since the crew was there doing company work but didn't go above and beyond. 

I had no problem with anyone doing side jobs with some rules:

They couldn't have time off early to do the job.
They couldn't be 'too tired' to work for me.
If they wanted to rent my equipment we could work something out.

BUT...if they were on my payroll, saw a job and went back after work to sell the work, they were stealing from me. If they weren't on my payroll doing my work they wouldn't have seen the job. It was VERY clear to them when they hired on that if they did skim a 'windshield' job and I found out, they would be terminated right away.

there have been many comments on this thread justifying 'sided jobs' on company time. There hasn't been a compelling justification to make it anything but stealing from the company.

Your employment agreement was to do 'this' work for 'this' pay, not for 'this' pay and all of the side jobs that you can do on company time too.


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## Pilsnaman (Mar 24, 2006)

I CAN'T BELIEVE I READ THAT WHOLE THING!:bang:


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## wradman (Mar 24, 2006)

*ok*

sound fair to me tom
and if you can make that work in the real world that's even better.
i downsized about 2 years ago, i used to run about 4 to 6 employees.
I do most things myself now and i use the odd extra help short term, it's nice not having any commitments to my employees anymore.
I work with a craning company when i need one, my gross went down but my profits have more than doubled and i know exactly where i stand all the time,i hardly ever use my skidders anymore ,and i handfall for most of the bigger companies and let them have the stress.
kinda like the crane owner operator in this picture.


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## oldugly (Mar 24, 2006)

*What kind of idiotic crap is this?*

[Of course he is a rocket scientist but what the hey......lots of us tree blokes must be close to as smart. I mean of course if you take the R.O.W. guys out of the equation. 

Dan[/QUOTE]
Mr. TreeCo.
If you and Clearance want to go at it tooth and nail, go ahead...but when you paint a picture of R.O.W. guys as being less intelligent than you as an "arborist" or maybe as a person then its my turn.

Measuring intelligence means a helluva lot more than measuring vocabularies. I don't care who you are, if you don't speak French you look like an idiot to someone who does, and if he doesn't speak English...you might perceive him to be less than you in intillect. 

Some of you speak from a different dictionary than I learned from...so I don't argue with you, I accept that, and as a matter of fact respect the fact that you have studied the scientific nature of tree care, while I have studied the safety and mechanical practicality of removals and line clearance under impossible situations. 

The difference in the studying I did versus yours...If I passed the course I lived...if I excelled I made money in the process...and If I was really good in "class" I actually got some respect from my peers. You got a degree to hang on your wall, I got the chance to truthfully swap war stories with some of the true greats in our profession. Right now, when my competitors run into situations they do not feel they can handle, they consult with me, when they need it I help them. When I am beyond my scope of expertise...I admit it and get the advice of the CA's. Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with the arrogant assinine attitude you display here. Most of the time they are more than willing to consult, advise, and are more interested in getting the job right. I show plenty of respect for their education, and they respect mine.

I really do not care that you consider me an intellectual moron...Your opinion of me means less than you could possibly magine. I do take offense to generalities that state one aspect of this business is less intelligent than another. I thought you were much more of a man, and much more educated than to stereotype and throw idiotic slanders at a profession that is so closely related to yours...yet so entirely different.

I guess I overestimated you as a person, and your intelligence.


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## userdude (Mar 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> lots of us tree blokes must be close to as smart. I mean of course if you take the R.O.W. guys out of the equation.
> Dan



Dan, I've done ROW and private and can honestly say I have faced more challenges and more problematic take downs/overhang doing ROW. Sure, I learned spikeless, crane removals and general tree care during my stint in the 'tree care industry', but until you've pulled massive overhang inches from a three phase and done more of the 'one wrong move and it's over' type work, don't knock us ROW guys. 
We'll have to continue this debate next time I see you in person.


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## oldugly (Mar 24, 2006)

*btw*

Clearance...
Before you jump on a side here....
Think about it. I'm not on your side either...we just have a commonality that is convenient for the time. I made my post, expressed my opinion...(although probably worth very little, I still felt it was mine to share) . Let it go. I'm not on your side either. Your idignance at some of these posts really makes me wonder what kind of skin you have. I would hope with the years you claim in this business it would be a little thicker than you express here. 
I don't have a soapbox to stand on, just trying to make an honest living. So the jist of this...I won't tell you to get off my side...just don't get on it.


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 24, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> BUT...if they were on my payroll, saw a job and went back after work to sell the work, they were stealing from me. If they weren't on my payroll doing my work they wouldn't have seen the job. It was VERY clear to them when they hired on that if they did skim a 'windshield' job and I found out, they would be terminated right away.




Are you saying that you fired guys for seeing a potential side job and returning to bid it after hours, while they were on your clock?


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 24, 2006)

KS,

If they bid the job and did it themselves they would be fired. I never knew of anyone doing that though. Very few of my employees ever did any sidework. It's pretty easy to know if someone is doing side work. Climbing gear goes home in the evening and shows up the next day. Other crew members chatter. The rules were in place so that they understood my position. 

The way I look at it, if they weren't on my payroll when they drove past the job they wouldn't have had the opportunity to see the work. That made the job 'mine' so to speak.


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## vharrison2 (Mar 24, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> KS,
> 
> If they bid the job and did it themselves they would be fired. I never knew of anyone doing that though. Very few of my employees ever did any sidework. It's pretty easy to know if someone is doing side work. Climbing gear goes home in the evening and shows up the next day. Other crew members chatter. The rules were in place so that they understood my position.
> 
> The way I look at it, if they weren't on my payroll when they drove past the job they wouldn't have had the opportunity to see the work. That made the job 'mine' so to speak.



Tom, we don't allow side work here at Dot Palm, but I think you were being more than fair. Now, if a guy wants to trim his neighbors trees or family's trees we don't mind and will even lend them the equipment.


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## jmack (Mar 24, 2006)

*peace ny*



Lumberjacked said:


> hahaha....I love it, you make it sound like I am taking tens of thousands of dollars from the govt. I am _only_ saying that on smaller jobs where I get cash I might keep some of it. If you can honestly say and swear on everything that is holy to you that you have NEVER taken cash for a job then I think you should bring it down a little. As far as our moms are concerned It was not directed toward anyone or meant to be derogatory in any-way-shape-or-form. When it boils right down to it I don't care what you guys do as long as no one gets hurt! I was simply conveying my thoughts on the question at hand.[/QUOTE awright dont go all ny on me, i hear you, cash is king however if yor legit it helps to show what your doing where in ny are lj?


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 24, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> KS,
> 
> If they bid the job and did it themselves they would be fired. I never knew of anyone doing that though. Very few of my employees ever did any sidework. It's pretty easy to know if someone is doing side work. Climbing gear goes home in the evening and shows up the next day. Other crew members chatter. The rules were in place so that they understood my position.
> 
> The way I look at it, if they weren't on my payroll when they drove past the job they wouldn't have had the opportunity to see the work. That made the job 'mine' so to speak.




I applaud you giving an employee 10% if they bid a job for you. 

But your "windshield" logic elludes me. If a guy finds a twenty dollar bill while on your clock, do you call that yours as well?

If he bids a job on his time and does it on his time my opinion would be that it was his job.


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## a_lopa (Mar 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Lighten up oldugly. I was just teasing a_lopa, whom I know does ROW work down under.
> 
> I dont anymore dan 10 years was more than enough  one things for sure theres alot more climbing in ROW for the $$$ than this residentual cream pie im eating,$200 to take a bush out or 2 days climbing next to 22kv.
> 
> ive seen residentual crews brought in for summer clearing wires they never last long its a production line for hard nasty guys not prima donna "look at me" guys with ther click in one hand cell phone in the other.


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## userdude (Mar 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I realize Clearance and Userdude don't represent the whole ROW industry.



Alright Dan, now you're insulting my intelligence and that makes me somewhat angry. I've tolerated your smart ass remarks, but now you're starting to get personal. In the future leave me out of your remarks if you don't mind, or as I said before, we WILL finish this debate the next time our paths cross.


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## userdude (Mar 24, 2006)

userdude said:


> we WILL finish this debate the next time our paths cross.



...and I hide behind nothing. Later.


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## userdude (Mar 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Well then what is your name?



Whatever I tell you to call me


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## a_lopa (Mar 24, 2006)

back to side work


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## clearance (Mar 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Brave words for someone hiding behind a use name.
> 
> If you are making a physical threat you are making a serious mistake.


You got that right Treeco, if anyone meets up with your arrogant ass and gives it a well deserved kicking, you will not take it like a man, you will phone the police and file an assault complaint, because that would be in keeping with what you have told us. That is you are a rat, informant, and will drop the dime on that person. And that is why I do not want you to know my name...."Hello, Revenue Canada? I would like to report someone who works for cash....."


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## tophopper (Mar 24, 2006)

Hahaha



This is funny stuff


but it is getting old.

As much as Dan needs a good butt whooping, noones gonna give him one.
Cmon guys- lets grow up eh?

This is just the internet and we are all grown adults, and yes threatening violence on the forum is just plain stoopid


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## a_lopa (Mar 25, 2006)

does the fishing ever stop dan?


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## oldugly (Mar 25, 2006)

Treeco I apologize if I misinterpreted your private teasing for a generalization. Just the rantings of a tired old ugly climber/row guy. I think I''ll limit my visits here for awhile...find something relaxing to do like explosives or something...
(Just kidding...I only blow up inanimate objects...most of the time.) LOL

And sorry kid for letting the topic get off based...side work is an education in itself. Ask 5 trimmers..get 5 different answers..ask an entire site...get 50 different answers...each one justifying his answer with his own (pardon me tree lady) or her own experiences.

This is something you need to explore for yourself, and as Shakespeare said...to thine own self be true.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 25, 2006)

KentuckySawyer said:


> But your "windshield" logic elludes me. If a guy finds a twenty dollar bill while on your clock, do you call that yours as well?[/QUOT
> 
> If money is found on a client's property it belongs to the customer first. If the customer says 'finder's keepers' then it belongs to the finder. Isn't that the way you were brought up? That's what my parents taught me. Otherwise, where is the line drawn? What is the difference between finding cash and finding anything else of value? The step from finding cash on a customer's property and finding a side job while someone is on my payroll is perfectly logical.


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## tophopper (Mar 25, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Thanks Tophopper.
> 
> I was waiting for one of my friends to speak up for me.





Hahahaha


Lets not get carried away Dan, I have many friends and speaking truthfully, you are not one of them. However, you (and everyone here) deserves to be shown some level of respect. No matter how much you are disliked


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 25, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> If money is found on a client's property it belongs to the customer first. If the customer says 'finder's keepers' then it belongs to the finder. Isn't that the way you were brought up? That's what my parents taught me. Otherwise, where is the line drawn? What is the difference between finding cash and finding anything else of value?



Let me make sure I'm understanding you here, Tom. Your guys are rolling to a job, while on the way somebody sees a nasty hanger over somebody's roof. That evening after clocking out, he returns, points the hanger out to the homeowner, bids it, and then does it all on his own personal time. The next day he is fired.

If your employee were to find money while off the job site, at lunch for example, then by your logic it is his responsibility to turn the cash into you. He wouldn't have found it unless he was in your employment, right? 



> The step from finding cash (while on Tom's clock) and finding a side job while someone is on my payroll is perfectly logical.



So are you saying that the money is yours? Thats the only "logical" parallel that I can see you drawing here.


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## tophopper (Mar 25, 2006)

Just tellin it like it is.....


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## shalx (Mar 25, 2006)

I read the whole thread and I am not in the tree buisness but have some very strong feelings about sidework. Much better story over whiskey than internet. I have one question for all the anti sidework guys; do you feel you are stealing from the employee if he or she uses any of their own equipment to make you money?


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## Lumberjacked (Mar 25, 2006)

Jmack, are you questioning whether or not I run a "legit" business?? For your info I am in CNY.


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## nitwit dolt (Mar 25, 2006)

Here's how I see it. I can't send my crew out for less than $400.00. Any job I bid that is in that ballpark I throw to them. If they need a chipper or a truck I get a share. Two men plus my equipment, three shares. They get cash I get a piece. We all know cash is king.


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## John464 (Mar 26, 2006)

nitwit dolt said:


> Here's how I see it. I can't send my crew out for less than $400.00. Any job I bid that is in that ballpark I throw to them. If they need a chipper or a truck I get a share. Two men plus my equipment, three shares. They get cash I get a piece. We all know cash is king.




that doesnt make sense. proper scheduling of 4 or more under $500 jobs per day can be a $2k + day. I enjoy the smaller jobs cause it all ads up at the end of the week. Anyone in business throwing away jobs is throwing away customer relations, period.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 26, 2006)

If your employee were to find money while off the job site, at lunch for example, then by your logic it is his responsibility to turn the cash into you. He wouldn't have found it unless he was in your employment, right? 
*******

Don't stretch the metaphor too far...anyway, no, if they find money in public, it is up to their conscience what they do with it. 

Explain how you deal with this issue, KS. Not finding cash,,,side jobs.


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## nitwit dolt (Mar 26, 2006)

Right, right properlly scheduled. Don't get me wrong I'am not throwing away work. What I'm doing is giving work to my guys. Instead of pushing them to do 4 jobs in one day I give them the oppurtunity to make some cash and see what time costs. I tell them " It's a two hour job for two guys. You can make $150.00 just for half saturday morning.". Every Monday I hear " I don't know what you were thinking it was 3 hours door to door.". So of course I ask why so long. Then I hear about the dull saw, no bar oil, 20 minute coffee break looking at the neighbors trees. Of course, none of these are issues when there're on my clock.So the work gets done, customer is happy, guys made some cash, and learned why I'm always yelling about the little things.


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## KentuckySawyer (Mar 26, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> Don't stretch the metaphor too far...anyway, no, if they find money in public, it is up to their conscience what they do with it.
> 
> Explain how you deal with this issue, KS. Not finding cash,,,side jobs.



To be honest, I haven't had to deal with employees doing side work. I've only been "the boss" for a year or so and don't have any full time employees yet. I can certainly appreciate your perspective as a larger business owner though. I was offered a position with a local company as a consulting arborist and eventually as a manager, and it that role I wouldn't have done "side work" since it would be an obvious conflict of interest. But I would want a cut on customers I brought in.

Years ago when I was a meager brush dragger/climber in another's employment, I don't think I (or many guys I worked with) would have cared for your "windshield" policy, but never solicited side work. On the other hand, my boss was a greedy, lying, weasel, who would NEVER give an employee a lousy dime for selling extra work. He inadvertently "trained" his workers to be disloyal and bitter towards him. Quite the opposite of your 10% offer.

I'll reserve further comments on your policy for a few years... when I'm running a couple crews.


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## John464 (Mar 26, 2006)

nitwit dolt said:


> Right, right properlly scheduled. Don't get me wrong I'am not throwing away work. What I'm doing is giving work to my guys. Instead of pushing them to do 4 jobs in one day I give them the oppurtunity to make some cash and see what time costs. I tell them " It's a two hour job for two guys. You can make $150.00 just for half saturday morning.". Every Monday I hear " I don't know what you were thinking it was 3 hours door to door.". So of course I ask why so long. Then I hear about the dull saw, no bar oil, 20 minute coffee break looking at the neighbors trees. Of course, none of these are issues when there're on my clock.So the work gets done, customer is happy, guys made some cash, and learned why I'm always yelling about the little things.



A few things to consider

if your help satisfies the customer on their time. what makes you think that for a larger job the customer will call you back? if you allow your employees to do side jobs you then have employees with a side business, that is normally cheaper than you and can and will cut you out of future work

you are also letting the customer down. a customer places value on a business to take care of them in all aspects of tree work. if you make like you are too bigtime for their small work it shows you don't value their needs/trees 


another thing to remember. if the job doesnt go as smoothly as your customer is use to with it's normal level of servicve from your company, by whom the recommendation/referral came from your business. this stems as a reflection from you, not good. 

I once had a guy who worked for me part time. I wasn't working him over the winter, but he kept calling every week to see if I had any work for him. I got sick of hearing him call. so I gave him a small job I didnt really want to do. Days after he did the job for my customer. Guess who gets a call? me. Customer was furious. My ex-employee took a deposit. Ran off with her money, never came back to finish the job and she asked if I could help. Now not only did I look like an ??????? for setting that job up it now became a problem I had to deal with, because I care about all my customers. I call his house, his wife picks up. Tell me he has run away, left her, and ran off with all her money too and has a drug problem. I never did get ahold of him and I havent had a call back from the lady who just wanted a small tree job done.

Lessons learned = employees never will do side work and remain to work for me. Anyone who doesn't follow this philosophy, will eventually when it comes apparent that it wasn't a good idea.


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## TreeLady (Mar 26, 2006)

> I have one question for all the anti sidework guys; do you feel you are stealing from the employee if he or she uses any of their own equipment to make you money?



We also provide all equipment, plus raingear, uniforms, sunscreen...whatever we can. We pay for them to get the training for certification. Anything they need to do their job we will provide. Sometimes guys want to use their own saddles...if they were to damage their saddle while working for us of course it would be our responsibility to replace it.



> On the other hand, my boss was a greedy, lying, weasel, who would NEVER give an employee a lousy dime for selling extra work. I'll reserve further comments on your policy for a few years... when I'm running a couple crews.



Good point. It all comes down to respect. We know our guys could make cash on the side, so we try to make it less attractive. They would rather get $50 for 5 seconds, giving our number to their kids coach then get their hourly to do the work. They get some extra cash and don't have to spend more time away from their family.

It is our job to have work for the guys to do, and the money to pay them each week. If they are out trying to grab up all the side jobs they can, they are making it harder for us to keep them employed. Essentially they are working against their own raise. 

My point in this thread is that the side job thing hurts smaller companies. The big ones arn't as affected. So, if you love big business and want to see all the little guys fail...screw your boss go get all the side work you can.


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## nitwit dolt (Mar 26, 2006)

It comes down to the employees. My guys know that the $27,000. I'm paying them is better than $400.00 for one Saturday. My customers hire me to do the work. If they are simply looking for the lowest price, let them have it. Bid hunters rarely turn into repeat customers. Having my guys do it on the side frees up the schedule for more important work and still brings in money. I realize that there are many sides to this coin, and that it can require more attention than I'd like to but I find it to be a win win situation.


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## clearance (Mar 26, 2006)

Treeco-the rat/informant who shines above everyone in rightousness, I have asked you many times now on this thread (NIckrosis said I was out of control for this) have you ever been paid in cash and not declared it? Have you ever?Now you have brought it up,answer. I just want to see you lie or tell the truth.


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## nitwit dolt (Mar 26, 2006)

Before we get carried away with this. I do run a fully certified, fully licensed, and fully insured company. I, in no way, condone any of the activities you claim. My point is simply that side work is a good way for me to take advantage of one aspect of my company. Customers who percieve lower pricing by paying in cash. My prices are set by my expenses, just like everybody else. My original point was that a $400.00 job is difficult at best. My pricing is $60.00 a man hour based on a three man crew. So that job must be done in 3 hours ( I know the math isn't perfect, but I like to get something for chipper time, disposal fees, Cabling gear, etc.). So by the time they load up the truck, get to the job, cleanup, and get to the next job 3 hours isn't realistic. Just my take on my situation. Are there many ways to make this work? Sure, smaller crew, route schedule (lower travel time), lining up similiar jobs ( all flops w/ no clean-up ), these all work. One of the other things I do is let the crew do the work on there own. These are a special situations that fit a certain criteria. Just like any Boss, I set specific rules for my guys. They know where the line is and what happens if they cross it. My share of these situatioins usually goes to all those expenses you mentioned that Legitmate tree companies face.


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## coveredinsap (Mar 26, 2006)

Anyone who is anti-sidework is forgetting what it was like when they were first starting out.

Regardless of the trade, everyone did sidework when they were first getting started, whether they want to admit it now or not. And anyone saying anything to the contrary is either a saint, a liar, or a hypocrite...take your pick. Sad but true.

Here in California, in order to get a contractor's license you had to do a certain amount of work 'on your own' to qualify. Since you couldn't get a license even if you wanted one to do that work on your own, you were forced to do the work without a license in order to gain enough 'experience' on your own to qualify for a license. And since you didn't have a license you couldn't get liability insurance or worker's comp. You're stuck in limbo-land...a catch-22 grey area that everyone experiences in their quest to go legitimate whether they admit it or not. It's the dirty little secret of every legitimate contractor on the planet.

And here's the funny part. If they do somehow (as unlikely as that is) qualify for 'sainthood' by never having actually done any sidework themselves to quailfy for their license, then they lied about their experience on their application to get said licence...and the license was acquired under false pretenses. Funny, eh?


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## userdude (Mar 26, 2006)

Took down two pines today, 4 hrs. total, customer responsible for clean up. Made just shy of what I make during a 40 hr. work week for the co.
The funny thing is that our forester is the one who got me the work...oh, and I used the company saw.
You naysayers will never stop the buzzin'. Find something more productive to devote your energy.


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 26, 2006)

the saga continues...I work my bag off for my employer... i basically have supplied my own gear...saddle, ropes, handsaw... and now a whoopee sling and a block cuz my employer just isn't into buying ???? to make my life easier... i haven't received a raise or any compensation for this... i make $20.00 an hour and we don't get overtime...just cash if we go over 40/week... I have taught myself to spurless climb with no help from my boss... i have been climbing only a little over a year but have climbed some trees a 10yr vet couldn't do...living in victoria where a crappy house in the crappy part of town costs over 300,000 grand... my wages aren't enough for the effort i put in...things get tight sometimes...i do cash jobs, mostly in my hometown area hundreds of clicks away....have done some here as well...its the only way i can justify staying in the business that i like...plus i started my own busines so i could write off the $4000.00 i've dumped into gear that i use to make my boss money...if i didn't do buzzies i'd probably totally go on my own and compete with my boss and the other multitude of companies...he'd be out a climber, and a guy who doesn't freak out, do drugs, or show up hung over (which seems prevalent in the industry)...plus i come from a small town and hate the litigisnous of people in the big smoke...especially in the u.s... do a job...get some money...don't ??????? well sue people for something that's my responsibility....if its between two fellas with no involvment from big brother...great...buzzies keep the little guys going...


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## jmack (Mar 26, 2006)

Lumberjacked said:


> Jmack, are you questioning whether or not I run a "legit" business?? For your info I am in CNY.


 no and ny is a big place


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## jmack (Mar 26, 2006)

nitwit dolt said:


> It comes down to the employees. My guys know that the $27,000. I'm paying them is better than $400.00 for one Saturday. My customers hire me to do the work. If they are simply looking for the lowest price, let them have it. Bid hunters rarely turn into repeat customers. Having my guys do it on the side frees up the schedule for more important work and still brings in money. I realize that there are many sides to this coin, and that it can require more attention than I'd like to but I find it to be a win win situation.


13.50/hr?


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## jmack (Mar 26, 2006)

TreeLady said:


> We also provide all equipment, plus raingear, uniforms, sunscreen...whatever we can. We pay for them to get the training for certification. Anything they need to do their job we will provide. Sometimes guys want to use their own saddles...if they were to damage their saddle while working for us of course it would be our responsibility to replace it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 no one loves da big biz and little guys will never fail every one is getting heated about this when 12 pages back the guy is trying to make a few extra bucks and is just looking for some advice, how bout doing the best job we can as professionals and realize side work is a reality in all careers


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## Treeman14 (Mar 26, 2006)

jmack said:


> 13.50/hr?



I think that's minimum wage in CT.


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## wradman (Mar 28, 2006)

*Hi*

boy have i missed alot in the last few days
good think i'm going out of town again 
the productive channel i started to learn from has turned into a political debate.


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## xtremetrees (Mar 28, 2006)

lol clearance!opcorn:


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## xtremetrees (Mar 28, 2006)

clearance said:


> Treeco-the rat/informant who shines above everyone in rightousness, I have asked you many times now on this thread (NIckrosis said I was out of control for this) have you ever been paid in cash and not declared it? Have you ever?Now you have brought it up,answer. I just want to see you lie or tell the truth.



Im still ROFLMAO this guys really is funny


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## xtremetrees (Mar 28, 2006)

Clearance everytime I read it I'm still laffing.

aww treeco dont feel so bad were all human beings I'm think your dad was a cop or sumpin.

Beings you wanna police everyone like you do.. I wonder how many guys have died because of the lack of information they got here because they was afraid to post because of you huh you ever wonder about the noob perfect one?


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## TreeLady (Mar 28, 2006)

> I wonder how many guys have died because of the lack of information they got here because they was afraid to post because of you huh you ever wonder about the noob perfect one?



There are newbies afraid of TreeCo but they still have the [email protected]!!s to climb a tree, or cut one down?


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## xtremetrees (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey lissen it take alot to post pics of your work and your gear and to appear inept, especially for a treeman were the most aggressive of the lot and the most subtle we dont take critizem very well tree lady. We actually very sensitive, thats why we climbed to the top to get away from it all I think....

Yearrr I'm just waiting on Treeseers topped pears, why dont you post pics of yourrrenn,

Tomm pics of a de- vinning job today I spent 4 hrs on it and only went up about 15 feet. I expect another 6 hrs of spikeless devinning and then hanging lights. Youll like um post um 2morrow.

My point is I want to encourge a learning atmostphere here. It can be life saving I have to remember that no matter the ethics or hypiocracy were only human jesus or muhammod only set out for us ideals that of course Ill never attain.


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## TreeLady (Mar 28, 2006)

> My point is I want to encourge a learning atmostphere here. It can be life saving I have to remember that no matter the ethics or hypiocracy were only human jesus or muhammod only set out for us ideals that of course Ill never attain.



Well said. I agree. I hope I didn't offend your delicate sensibilities. It's just hard for me to imagine a guy willing to climb 60 feet up in a tree being afraid of anything let alone someone posting on a blog on the internet.:biggrinbounce2:


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 28, 2006)

userdude said:


> .oh, and I used the company saw.



You are a theif.


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## clearance (Mar 28, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> You are a theif.


Oh my God, Treelos little biach speaks up. Used a saw for a few hours omfg, the end is coming, Jesus is coming, look busy.


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## userdude (Mar 30, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> You are a theif.



So then...Are they thieves when I use MY gear on THEIR job site?


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## Nickrosis (Mar 30, 2006)

userdude said:


> So then...Are they thieves when I use MY gear on THEIR job site?


Whoa, ease off on the stupid pills!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 30, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> Whoa, ease off on the stupid pills!






That's probably the best answer, but on the off chance that there's some remote possiblity of learning here....


userdude, this may come as a surprise to you, but in most trades employees are required to provide some of their basic tools, and often certain items of clothing, such as safety shoes. Standard stuff. Been that way for several hundred years, all the way back to the old time guilds. You agreed to that when you took the job. Your employer PROBABLY didn't agree to have you use his equipment for side work. Unless he did, you are stealing when you do that, just the same as if you took cash from the till.


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## woodchux (Mar 30, 2006)

Wear and Tear does = money


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 30, 2006)

Personally I don't think userdude's question is stoopid....sure i should supply some of my own gear, but where's the point when ishould be compensated, eh? I've got my own saddle, spurs, cuttin pants, climbing lines (cuz the boss' are ratty) and have even brought my own saw lately cuz the company's are crap...finally he bought a new one...but is this stealing? I'm making him profit with my own stuff...I personally think i'm due something...funny, all the bosses think its ridiculous to think its stealing when they're using are stuff but if we use their stuff we're scum...personally the only thing i've used from the boss, (other than the gas that left over in my jet bottles) has been a pair of secateers...i wouldn't use his stuff on principle but i do feel i'm owed something...


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## BlueRidgeMark (Mar 30, 2006)

Okay, let me try this one more time....

When you took the job, you agreed to supply some of your own gear. If you agreed to it, he isn't stealing. He has your permission.



Your boss did NOT agree to let you use his stuff to do side work. If he didn't agree to you using his stuff, you are taking something without his permission. 

That's called stealing.


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## woodchux (Mar 30, 2006)

"but i do feel i'm owed something"

It's called your paycheck


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## a_lopa (Mar 30, 2006)

i used the company equipment to do a cashie this week guy walked up to us on the job asking if we could t/d a smallish tree,i split it with the guy working with me.


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## woodchux (Mar 31, 2006)

Nothing wrong with that...
Unless boss doesn't allow it, and has said don't


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## clearance (Mar 31, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Okay, let me try this one more time....
> 
> When you took the job, you agreed to supply some of your own gear. If you agreed to it, he isn't stealing. He has your permission.
> 
> ...


I sense a man suffering guilt, what is the big freaking deal Mark? Why is everything so cut and dried to you? I remember earlier when the death of a faller in BC came up and you said in regards to the mans girlfriend getting assistance, "shack jobs don't count". At the time I just thought a large lack of tact and compassion but now the theme has been continued. I sense someone who has "sinned" earlier in life and now has to compensate for this by throwing stones of black in a grey world, strange, but there must be an underlying reason. Let me guess the response "I just don't like thieves"......... I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist by any means but I sense something much deeper at work here.


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## a_lopa (Mar 31, 2006)

i could go on but i wont


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## userdude (Mar 31, 2006)

Nickrosis said:


> Whoa, ease off on the stupid pills!



Funny what a man will say to another through forums, or over the phone, but in person....It's OK Nick. I always thought you may have 'a 'lil sugar in the tank' anyway. 
BlueRidge: When I started with this company I DID NOT AGREE to suppy: ALL climbing gear/saw, Port-a-wrap, 200ft. lowering line, Big Shot, slick line/bags, slings, etc. THEY DID agree that I could use their saw on side work if I needed. Like I said, the forester (boss) hooked me up with the job. Do you have a better understanding now? Or, do you wanna go jumping to conclusions again?


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## 1I'dJak (Mar 31, 2006)

same here bro...i didn't agree to supply all my gear...some, yes but i started supplying my own lines and saw cuz the boss kept telling me he's getting new stuff...come monday...same old ratty lines...plus i even started bringing my own sling and block cuz everything can't always be natural crotched like the boss thinks....as for buddy who said i get my paycheck for what i supply...my labour=paycheck, using my gear to make him more money than i get should equal either some new gear for me, or sharesies... he uses my stuff i use hes... i was taught that in pre school


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## woodchux (Apr 1, 2006)

Guys with kit are definitely worth more money.
If you're not being compensated...
It's time to re-negotiate


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## oldugly (Apr 2, 2006)

I agree, if you are supplying more than what you agreed to then it is time to renegotiate with the boss. Yes he is stealing from you by using your equipment without compensating you for it. The only question there is..did he ever ask you to bring in your own equipment, or do you just prefer it and he allows you to use it? Because if you are using your own equipment out of preference, rather than need, he owes you nothing, but if he is requesting you to bring in your own equipment to do his job...you should be compensated..and (probably commended).

Yes it is true...business owners, and employees, have a side to say in this matter. Both of them when they abuse the initial contract can be considered thieves, and both can find a means to justify themselves.

In reality, our discussions will probably never influence eachother's opinions, (it seems like a pretty hard-headed group in here....mostly anyway) everyone seems pretty set in their own ideological regimes. 
 
Insulting eachother does not help, nor does the name calling, or the patronizing. Threats...over the internet???grow up people. 

It does however make for interesting and humorous reading.


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## Nickrosis (Apr 3, 2006)

Thanks, oldugly, that was good.

You can count on me calling out the ridiculous.


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## Canyonbc (Apr 19, 2007)

*Insurance...treeguy020*

hey treeguy020, couldnt find a email on ya...quick question...who did you go through for insurance on that...

is it insurance for your self or property.

And what are you paying.

email [email protected]


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