# Inside the 372XP X-TORQ



## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)




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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

Factory Squish










Nice clamp.





O-ring seals.





A little "scuffing", right from the factory. I haven't even pulled this saw over yet. This is why you break-in a new piston easy. Nothing hurt here fortunately.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)




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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

No Mahle markings anywhere on the piston or cylinder.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

That's it for now.


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## HittinSteel (Dec 3, 2010)

Cool. Subscribing so I can watch as you put your personal touch on this strato (assuming it's not torn down just for pictures) :hmm3grin2orange:


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## SawTroll (Dec 3, 2010)

Another Gilardoni top end? opcorn:opcorn:


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## porsche965 (Dec 3, 2010)

Great! This will be an interesting thread.

Surprised by the scuffing from the factory. Is this the norm I wonder?


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

SawTroll said:


> Another Gilardoni top end? opcorn:opcorn:



Is it? They have a great reputation. This cylinder is a beautiful casting. I don't see and bugger anywhere on it.


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## weimedog (Dec 3, 2010)

So do you have a plan with this saw? Or is this a R&D project? (Hope fully not customer funded!) Interesting stuff. Thank you for posting these!


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## SawTroll (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Is it? They have a great reputation. This cylinder is a beautiful casting. I don't see and bugger anywhere on it.



LOL - I didn't say that it is anything wrong with Gilardoni, but it may explain why it doesn't say Mahle on it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

SawTroll said:


> LOL - I didn't say that it is anything wrong with Gilardoni, but it may explain why it doesn't say Mahle on it.



Oh, I wasn't implying you were. I thought maybe you saw Gilardoni markings. That would be fine with me.


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## dingeryote (Dec 3, 2010)

AAANNNDDDD so it begins!!!!:yourock:

Wait!!!! Didja weigh the thing empty PHO on a tripple claibrated and verified by the Papal guard, and Hannah Montanna approved Poastal scale?:hmm3grin2orange:

Thanks for tearing into another one Brad!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Wait!!!! Didja weigh the thing empty PHO on a tripple claibrated and verified by the Papal guard, and Hannah Montanna approved Poastal scale?:hmm3grin2orange:



Nope. And ya ain't gettin' no stock comparisons and percentages either, lol:hmm3grin2orange:


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## hqv (Dec 3, 2010)

Are you thinking of modification ? :yoyo:


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

hqv said:


> Are you thinking of modification ? :yoyo:



No. I *am *modifying


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## dingeryote (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Nope. And ya ain't gettin' no stock comparisons and percentages either, lol:hmm3grin2orange:



Ahhhhh yes..
Plain old "Done this here, and this is what done happened".:hmm3grin2orange:

Each saw is gonna be an individual anyhoo.

Just looking for a before and after comparo on the weight.
I'm still wondering how much 261 ended up on the shop floor LOL!!!

Any plans on removing the waffle pattern off the piston?
Dunno why, but it just bugs me just looking at it.


Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## dingeryote (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> No. I *am *modifying



Typing and grinding...kinda warped when ya think about it.
:biggrinbounce2:

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## DavesMower&Saw (Dec 3, 2010)

I ran one of these saws this past weekend and I liked it the way it was stock, except the dual bar spikes.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

dingeryote said:


> Typing and grinding...kinda warped when ya think about it.
> :biggrinbounce2:
> 
> Stay safe!
> Dingeryote



I'm just laying things out right now. I have to let the ink dry a little before pushing the ring on down in for the next line, otherwise it smears even worse.


Can you saw WIIIIIDER?


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## TRI955 (Dec 3, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Freehand (Dec 3, 2010)

opcorn:


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## dingeryote (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm just laying things out right now. I have to let the ink dry a little before pushing the ring on down in for the next line, otherwise it smears even worse.
> 
> 
> Can you saw WIIIIIDER?




Crap!

You really shoulda weighed the thing before and after.
It's gonna be 2 lbs lighter when ya get done, and need a lead weight on the bar to get the balance back!:hmm3grin2orange:

What's gonna hold the spark plug in?

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

Leave me alone! I'm busy grinding


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## forcedintoit (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Leave me alone! I'm busy grinding



Don't get hurt........my saw is on its way to you!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

forcedintoit said:


> Don't get hurt........my saw is on its way to you!:hmm3grin2orange:



Yours isn't the only one. Everyone wants a saw all of the sudden. I can't let them get backed up. But I've never been one to keep someone's saw for any length of time. I like to get them done and back to their owner. I know how I'd be if it weremy saw.


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## SWE#Kipp (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Leave me alone! I'm busy grinding



Hahaha


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

It's not a strato anymore


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 3, 2010)

Can't wait to see the results. I would of left it strato, but thats me.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Can't wait to see the results. I would of left it strato, but thats me.



It's setup almost identically to the 261. Why reinvent what worked on it? This make big gains with it. The more fuel an engine can efficiently burn, the more power it will make.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It's setup almost identically to the 261. Why reinvent what worked on it? This make big gains with it. The more fuel an engine can efficiently burn, the more power it will make.


I would take it as far as I could while still being strato, then go the other way. It may not act like the 261. Plus it would be nice to keep track of fuel usage vs power.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 3, 2010)

Now let's play nicely everyone. 

:biggrinbounce2:


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 3, 2010)

We are playing nice. Just stated a opinion. I have nothing against Brad, he knows that.


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## Bowtie (Dec 3, 2010)

Damnit. I suppose I need one of those there new 372's. I have been very happy with all the strato saws power that I have run, with exception to the 362. But, to be fair, I didnt let the 362 break in completely.

Awesome pics.


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## Hugenpoet (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Leave me alone! I'm busy grinding



Thanks for stopping the grinding long enough to share with us. Nothin' beats a free education when one is lucky enough to have an instructor who knows what he's doing.


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## hqv (Dec 3, 2010)

Hell yeah :hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

It's running!


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## Stumpys Customs (Dec 3, 2010)

Brad, What was involved in making it a non stratto?


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

The coil is rev-limited to 13,300 as stamped on the coil. The good news...it uses the same coil as the standard 372, so this one's no longer rev limited.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

stumpyshusky said:


> Brad, What was involved in making it a non stratto?



Check out the 261 thread. I did the exact same thing to this saw. I removed the divider in the carb, the intake tube, and modified the intake significantly.


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## Stumpys Customs (Dec 3, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Check out the 261 thread. I did the exact same thing to this saw. I removed the divider in the carb, the intake tube, and modified the intake significantly.



Thanks Brad, I'll check that out. Will it work on all strats?


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

You guys don't like my striped shirts, so here's a nasty filthy Baileys t-shirt for ya BTW, the saw is tuned super rich to break in that piston.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oSzQv9UWr_c?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oSzQv9UWr_c?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## nassin2 (Dec 3, 2010)

Brad, I know you're in the garage which makes it a lot louder but that thing sounds like it would eat small children given the chance. :chainsawguy:


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## Freehand (Dec 3, 2010)

Ooooooo....that's got a mean,lopey idle.Schweet.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 3, 2010)

weimedog said:


> So do you have a plan with this saw? Or is this a R&D project? (Hope fully not *customer funded!*) Interesting stuff. Thank you for posting these!




Yes sir it is! by me! :hmm3grin2orange:

I cant wait to get it in wood. Brad do you plan on cutting anything with it? I cant wait:biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2: BTW Check your PM's

Im going to make a full write up on it after next weekend, assuming you all would like that.


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## ptjeep (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm very impressed with how you outlined the inside of that cylinder with the red pen. Would you care to share how you get your vertical lines so straight once you have your distanced measured? Are you using tape cut to the width you want to remove and then marking the outside of it once its stuck to the cylinder? Looks like for the horizontal lines, you could just push the ring up with the piston and use it for a guide. I'm trying to learn what i can so my next job will be a little easier. Thanks


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 3, 2010)

Sounds good Brad.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Yes sir it is! by me! :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> I cant wait to get it in wood. *Brad do you plan on cutting anything with it?* I cant wait:biggrinbounce2::biggrinbounce2: BTW Check your PM's
> 
> Im going to make a full write up on it after next weekend, assuming you all would like that.


Yes, I'll be putting some fuel through it tomorrow. I want to break-in that piston a little before you put it to work.



nassin2 said:


> Brad, I know you're in the garage which makes it a lot louder but that thing sounds like it would eat small children given the chance. :chainsawguy:





freehandslabber said:


> Ooooooo....that's got a mean,lopey idle.Schweet.


The idle is awesome on this thing!



ptjeep said:


> I'm very impressed with how you outlined the inside of that cylinder with the red pen. Would you care to share how you get your vertical lines so straight once you have your distanced measured? Are you using tape cut to the width you want to remove and then marking the outside of it once its stuck to the cylinder? Looks like for the horizontal lines, you could just push the ring up with the piston and use it for a guide. I'm trying to learn what i can so my next job will be a little easier. Thanks


I locate the skirt edges and locator pins on the piston. I then put marks in the cylinder where they're located. For the vertical lines I use the part of my dial caliper that sticks out the end. On most cylinders, you can set the end of the caliper on the bottom of the cylinder and it will set square. If not, there are usually enough vertical witness marks in the jug to get it straight. For the horizontal lines, I use a ring as you suggested. I no longer use any tape at all.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 3, 2010)

I have noticed the Husqvarna ports are much more "sqaure" compared to Stihl.


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## mweba (Dec 3, 2010)

Sounds good. My piston had similar wear marks when new. After about 18 tanks when it came apart the last time, everything had smoothed out. Throttle response also improves greatly. 
Fantastic saws.


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## ktoom (Dec 3, 2010)

Hey Brad, are the red marks u made on the cylinder going to be how wide u will make the port???? Or do you just use the as a guide so u don't go out too far??? Second do u hone the cylinder after u have ported it to clean the edges?


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

ktoom said:


> Hey Brad, are the red marks u made on the cylinder going to be how wide u will make the port???? Or do you just use the as a guide so u don't go out too far??? Second do u hone the cylinder after u have ported it to clean the edges?



The marks on the exhaust were the actual port width. On the intake that was the skirt limit. I wasn't able to widen it at all on one side.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

mweba said:


> Sounds good. My piston had similar wear marks when new. After about 18 tanks when it came apart the last time, everything had smoothed out. Throttle response also improves greatly.
> Fantastic saws.



That's good to hear.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 3, 2010)

So you can gring down only one side, and don't have to take an equal amount off both sides of the ports? i did'nt know that. but I'm glad I do now. 

I like that saw alot. Can't wait to see her in action.


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## blsnelling (Dec 3, 2010)

Anthony_Va. said:


> So you can gring down only one side, and don't have to take an equal amount off both sides of the ports? i did'nt know that. but I'm glad I do now.
> 
> I like that saw alot. Can't wait to see her in action.



The intake wasn't perfectly centered on the piston. Intake width is intake width. It's not like making the transfers even.


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## FFemt5287 (Dec 3, 2010)

Awesome thread, Brad. Can't wait to get home in the morning from work and be able to watch that video! (Videos are blocked on the computers here in the hospital)

What are the actual figures of power gain with these mods? Physically measurable in terms of HP? Or more a "seat of the pants" and throttle response gain?


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## flushcut (Dec 3, 2010)

opcorn:opcorn:


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## Woodman 460 (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice job Brad. Impressive documentary as always!


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Dec 3, 2010)

opcorn:opcorn:


Anthony_Va. said:


> So you can gring down only one side, and don't have to take an equal amount off both sides of the ports? i did'nt know that. but I'm glad I do now.
> 
> I like that saw alot. Can't wait to see her in action.


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## cpr (Dec 3, 2010)

CRAP! I was looking forward to 1 more 372Classic. Now I want the new one, too... and a 576.


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## 8433jeff (Dec 3, 2010)

Seems to be progressing nicely. I thought about saying something like I can tell by the sales brochure that its not balanced and its way too heavy, but I'll play nice. Since thats all crap anyways. I think I read the end user is going to write up a thread, that'll be cool too.


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## parrisw (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice Brad, can't wait to see it cut.


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## wigglesworth (Dec 3, 2010)

I cant believe you dont have your flashlight out.....


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 4, 2010)

The batters are dead.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Zombiechopper (Dec 4, 2010)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> opcorn:opcorn:



How's your MS261 doin Mr. BS?

WE REMEMBER.


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## Zombiechopper (Dec 4, 2010)

Where's the vids Brad??!~
Sun's been up for at least ten minutes now. Get it in gear old feller!


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## weimedog (Dec 4, 2010)

Be more interesting to see a before and after or modded vs. stock on the same wood! (with wood big enough to matter & 24inch bar!)

Also it seems that you use the original carburetor, is that a potential place for improvement..a larger carburetor? Be interested in what style muffler mod you used to complement the other mods.

Like the MS261 thread, interesting post!


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## Freehand (Dec 4, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> How's your MS261 doin Mr. BS?
> 
> WE REMEMBER.



lol:jester:


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## mdavlee (Dec 4, 2010)

I'm interested in the videos myself. I wish we had one of the new versions yesterday to run with the xpw and my 2171.


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Dec 4, 2010)

Zombiechopper said:


> How's your MS261 doin Mr. BS?
> 
> WE REMEMBER.



just fine thanks,both of them. they have been out for retail since late oct..just like i said they would be,remember that????????? i recieved a preproduction/demo unit mid sept. just like i said i would. and no,mr. snelling did not have the first one sold in the us market. stihl reps,and high volume dealers all had some to use,but not sell since mid sept. oh,and by the way the pre production and early s/n 261's have already had a few issues w/conn. breakage due to over-rev. so keep a close eye on the rpms. thanks,and bye-bye now. CALL MR.B.S ALL YOU WANT,IF YOU WOULD LIKE STIHL DEALER #,I WOULD BE HAPPY TO P.M. YOU W.IT!


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Dec 4, 2010)

zombiechopper said:


> how's your ms261 doin mr. Bs?
> 
> We remember.



s/n 283760622,and sn pp283700017 do those mean anything mr.know it all??????? Since you probably dont know those are stihl sn


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## STIHLTHEDEERE (Dec 4, 2010)

freehandslabber said:


> lol:jester:


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 4, 2010)

STIHLTHEDEERE said:


> opcorn:opcorn:



Why are you quoting my simple question with those popcorn icons anyways STD?

Yea Zombie, I remember too. Easy to come here now that the saw is out, Mr. "I had it in July" or whenever. Don't bring the crap to a good thread.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Hey guys, I had to get my beauty sleep. I'm thinking about venturing out into that cold harsh world to run this saw. I might even take a camera with me


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Let STD go man. All it will do is add more clutter.

Hey guys, I had to get my beauty sleep. I'm thinking about venturing out into that cold harsh world to run this saw. I might even take a camera with me


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Hey guys, I had to get my beauty sleep. I'm thinking about venturing out into that cold harsh world to run this saw. I might even take a camera with me



You getting snow Brad? We're covered up here. I gotta go out to feed the cattle too.  No cab on the tractor thats here.

Get on out there and get it man. It's not too bad. It'll make for some nice vids too.


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## willysmn (Dec 4, 2010)

*576 Husqvarna*

I'm a little late, but I really appreciate the detailed, high quality photos and will appreciate the report from the testing.
Thanks

(I wonder if you could install one on a go kart?)


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## Officer's Match (Dec 4, 2010)

Anxiously waiting here too...


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## ChipMonger (Dec 4, 2010)

Me too...:hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Vid coming soon. It's encoding now, and will then have to be uploaded.


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## SWE#Kipp (Dec 4, 2010)

Jag med 
(me too)


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Do you guys want the good new, or the bad news first?


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## SWE#Kipp (Dec 4, 2010)

The bad ,,,


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## Tzed250 (Dec 4, 2010)

.


You made a drink mixer/blender out of it...


.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Do you guys want the good new, or the bad news first?


Let me guess, the saw ran good, the video is junk.


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## Jacob J. (Dec 4, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> You made a drink mixer/blender out of it...
> ...



Actually, I'd like to see an X-torque ice cream maker...


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## Tzed250 (Dec 4, 2010)

Jacob J. said:


> Actually, I'd like to see an X-torque ice cream maker...



I would definitely buy one of those!!!


.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

SWE#Kipp said:


> The bad ,,,



To put it mildly, I'm not a happy camper. In this line of work, it's bound to catch up to you sooner or later. I just blew up my first customers saw Yup, you read that right. I put nearly a tank of fuel through the saw, and it ran perfectly. But I thought there was more in it, brought it home, gave it a few degrees if ignition timing advance, and was tuning it. It was at WOT and IT happened! The bottom ring snagged on the bottom of the exhaust port, and busted out the crown of the piston. I immediately yanked it apart. To my amazement, the cylinder is fine. 

Here's what caused it. As a general rule of thumb, you never mess with the bottom of the exhaust port. In this case, the port bottom was too flat for as wide as I made it. On the bright side, there is litterally at least 1/4" of piston skirt below the exhaust port when the piston's at TDC. By the time I have the port shaped like I want it, the place where the ring snagged will be completely gone. I got soooo lucky. I'm also super thankful this happened to me now, and not after I shipped it.

I'm trying to make contact to order a new piston, and will pay for next day shipping. If need be, I'll next day air the saw to it's owner, who needs it for a job starting next Friday. I've already talked to him, and thank goodness, he was gracious about it.

You've got to figure something like this will happen sooner or later, but that doesn't make it any easier when it does. I'm sure I'll catch some flack from this for a select few, but I've always been open, and hopefully someone besides me will learn from it. I'm not here to hide anything, so you get to see the good and the bad.

Here are the pics. I'm currently uploading the vid of the saw cutting Oak.


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## Tzed250 (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> To put it mildly, I'm not a happy camper. In this line of work, it's bound to catch up to you sooner or later. I just blew up my first customers saw Yup, you read that right. I put nearly a tank of fuel through the saw, and it ran perfectly. But I thought there was more in it, brought it home, gave it a few degrees if ignition timing advance, and was tuning it. It was at WOT and IT happened! The bottom ring snagged on the bottom of the exhaust port, and busted out the crown of the piston. I immediately yanked it apart. To my amazement, the cylinder is fine.
> 
> Here's what caused it. As a general rule of thumb, you never mess with the bottom of the exhaust port. In this case, the port bottom was too flat for as wide as I made it. On the bright side, there is litterally at least 1/4" of piston skirt below the exhaust port when the piston's at TDC. By the time I have the port shaped like I want it, the place where the ring snagged will be completely gone. I got soooo lucky. I'm also super thankful this happened to me now, and not after I shipped it.
> 
> ...



There are two kinds of engine builders Brad....Those that have blown engines, and those that will blow engines...just part of the game.


.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> Let me guess, the saw ran good, the video is junk.



I wish!!!


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> There are two kinds of engine builders Brad....Those that have blown engines, and those that will blow engines...just part of the game.
> 
> 
> .



I realize that, but that doesn't make it any easier. Then you add to the fact that I'm sharing my work, and it doesn't make for a fun day! This is the very first customers saw I've blow up. I did go through a couple topends on one of my personal saws before I got it right. But it's not such a big deal when it's your own saw.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

And now for the good news. The saw was holding 11,500 in the cut, with the bar buried in hard Pin Oak.


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## Tzed250 (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I realize that, but that doesn't make it any easier. Then you add to the fact that I'm sharing my work, and it doesn't make for a fun day! This is the very first customers saw I've blow up. I did go through a couple topends on one of my personal saws before I got it right. But it's not such a big deal when it's your own saw.



You lucked out big time!! It blew up on the dyno instead of at the track...

As long as the man gets a good work saw it's all good...


.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> As long as the man gets a good work saw it's all good....



There's only one way to handle something like this. I got his phone # and gave him a call. It's not fun facing the music, but it's the only way.


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## HARRY BARKER (Dec 4, 2010)

ouch


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 4, 2010)

Wow, that sucks. Best thing is to move on and learn from it.


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## CentaurG2 (Dec 4, 2010)

As we say in the tree biz, looks like it is going to be a not for profit job. Happens, but insurance usually covers it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

The port is properly shaped now and good to go. If I had a new piston, it'd be running in 1/2 hour or less. Anyone have a PN for a 372XP X-TORQ piston?


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## Tzed250 (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> The port is properly shaped now and good to go. If I had a new piston, it'd be running in 1/2 hour or less. Anyone have a PN for a 372XP X-TORQ piston?



http://weborder.husqvarna.com/order_static/doc/HIPL/HIPL2010/HIPL2010_30.pdf


510 44 39-02


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Tzed250 said:


> http://weborder.husqvarna.com/order_static/doc/HIPL/HIPL2010/HIPL2010_30.pdf



Thanks John. The piston's not in the system where I normally order Husky parts. Neither is the P&C kit. I'm hoping Spike can help me out with a piston on Monday.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> There's only one way to handle something like this. I got his phone # and gave him a call. It's not fun facing the music, but it's the only way.



Well incase anyone is wondering, the saw is mine. I spoke to Brad over the phone, he was more than honest and felt horrible about it. Im a Firefighter and know the likely hood that "Sh*t happens". I worked on a Porsche race team and the first i built motor blew up. Turns out the crank failed from a crack that wasnt seen with magna fluxing...oh well it happened and we had to fix it. I dont blame brad for what happened he followed normal procedures for what he does. He built my 390 and 346, im more than happy with them. Hes doing everything he can to get my saw to me in perfect order. I cant ask for anything else. My hat is off to him. 

Thanks Brad!


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## porsche965 (Dec 4, 2010)

Honesty pays off. Always.


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## mdavlee (Dec 4, 2010)

If you're not breaking stuff you're not trying hard enough is what the tractor pullers always told me. If you do enough of them there's bound to be one break. I wouldn't worry about it at all as the customer isn't upset about it. You just won't make profit off it and it's a learning experience.


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 4, 2010)

But hopefully it won't set you back a whole lot.

You just need a piston, right? It could have been alot worse. It happens with any business, as most of you know. It's like Mike said, if you're not breaking anything youre not working hard enough. 

I am confident that the man will have his saw on time. You seem like a stand-up guy. Cudos bro!


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## Officer's Match (Dec 4, 2010)

So Brad, you subjective findings prior to the, umm, diversionary event?


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## mweba (Dec 4, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Be more interesting to see a before and after or modded vs. stock on the same wood! (with wood big enough to matter & 24inch bar!)
> 
> Also it seems that you use the original carburetor, is that a potential place for improvement..a larger carburetor? Be interested in what style muffler mod you used to complement the other mods.
> 
> Like the MS261 thread, interesting post!



The x-torq carb is larger than the standard 372 set up, although not by much. Didn't write it down but 1.5mm sticks in my head. Intake port on this saw would limit the gains by a larger carb.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words of support. I'm just really glad it happened to me before I shipped it. Yes, I'm extremely lucky I didn't scrap the cylinder. My personal saw I mentioned earlier required a new cylinder both times. Paul, it's a pleasure working for someone like you. 

The saw runs great, as demonstrated by the way it ran in that Oak. However, it's no match for my non-strato 372BB. That's why I went back home after making the vid and was playing with the ignition timing. I didn't get to find out what that did or did not do for it. Initial impressions after advancing the ignition, is that it negatively affected throttle response. It created a hesitation of some kind that was not there before. So this may be one saw that doesn't like it. I won't sacrifice useability for a little more speed. This is a work saw first. I think Paul will be very happy with it.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 4, 2010)

Officer's Match said:


> So Brad, you subjective findings prior to the, umm, diversionary event?




Good question sir...Im interested as well. What do you think Brad?


----------



## HARRY BARKER (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> thanks for the kind words of support. I'm just really glad it happened to me before i shipped it. Yes, i'm extremely lucky i didn't scrap the cylinder. My personal saw i mentioned earlier required a new cylinder both times. Paul, it's a pleasure working for someone like you.
> 
> The saw runs great, as demonstrated by the way it ran in that oak. However, it's no match for my non-strato 372bb. That's why i went back home after making the vid and was playing with the ignition timing. I didn't get to find out what that did or did not do for it. Initial impressions after advancing the ignition, is that it negatively affected throttle response. It created a hesitation of some kind that was not there before. So this may be one saw that doesn't like it. I won't sacrifice useability for a little more speed. This is a work saw first. I think paul will be very happy with it.


why oh why are you experimenting with customers saws?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

In the X-TORQ's defense, my 372BB has a popup piston and several tanks through it. This was the very first tank on a tight new saw. Mweba has commented how his picked up after several tanks. That seems to be more true of strato saws for some reason.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 4, 2010)

HARRY BARKER said:


> why oh why are you experimenting with customers saws?



Simple Harry...Because i asked him to. I know full well the potential risks involved. I look at it this way. If things dont work out i'll have Brad do a Big Bore on it lol:biggrinbounce2: (of course i'll pay for it )...Im sure i'll be more than happy with it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

Here's my 372BB in the same wood, with the same B&C. This is an exceptionally good running 372.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJIImZ3z0do?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJIImZ3z0do?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## angelo c (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Here are the pics. I'm currently uploading the vid of the saw cutting Oak.



Brad, 
Do you think that will clean up with a little Acid and some Q-tips ? :hmm3grin2orange:

Sorry about the extra workload due to the unforeseen detour.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

angelo c said:


> Brad,
> Do you think that will clean up with a little Acid and some Q-tips ? :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Sorry about the extra workload due to the unforeseen detour.



Lol, maybe I can JBWeld it back together This couldn't have come at a much worse time. Seems like everyone and their brother wants a saw right now. I'm probably going to start turning down jobs until after the new year, or at least until I'm caught up. I don't like to make anyone wait on their saw.


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## angelo c (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Lol, maybe I can JBWeld it back together This couldn't have come at a much worse time. Seems like everyone and their brother wants a saw right now. I'm probably going to start turning down jobs until after the new year, or at least until I'm caught up. I don't like to make anyone wait on their saw.



Well Brad, ya do know its firewood season for anyone that procrastinates till AFTER the very last minute :chainsawguy: or the Holiday Gift giving season( formerly known as Christmas time)...

Count the blessings, in this economy any demand is good. Supply can always be managed, demand is there or it isn't, and comes and goes when it wants. 

A


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## ChipMonger (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Here's my 372BB in the same wood, with the same B&C. This is an exceptionally good running 372.
> 
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJIImZ3z0do?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HJIImZ3z0do?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



I would say so lol...No shortage of power and torque there. BTW check your PM's


----------



## HARRY BARKER (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Lol, maybe I can JBWeld it back together This couldn't have come at a much worse time. Seems like everyone and their brother wants a saw right now. I'm probably going to start turning down jobs until after the new year, or at least until I'm caught up. I don't like to make anyone wait on their saw.


you gonna tip that saw upside down and shake the pieces out like usual?


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

HARRY BARKER said:


> you gonna tip that saw upside down and shake the pieces out like usual?



No, just the muffler:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## HARRY BARKER (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> No, just the muffler:hmm3grin2orange:


yeah,thats what i thought....turn it upside down and try to flush the small peices out and call it good......on a brand new saw.....OH WAIT! its not new anymore....its used and been trashed once! but youll grind up the port where the ring caught it and tell the customer that part of the port needed to go any way?


----------



## HARRY BARKER (Dec 4, 2010)

I dont want to give you too much credit,but your kinda like the SHAM-WOW guy.


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## funky sawman (Dec 4, 2010)

does harry barker Ever have anything good to say on this forum????:notrolls2:


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## funky sawman (Dec 4, 2010)

That modded x-torque seemed to pull perty good even leaned out. Hey brad why did you rerichen it in the end of the video??


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

funky sawman said:


> That modded x-torque seemed to pull perty good even leaned out. Hey brad why did you rerichen it in the end of the video??



It's a new saw. No reason to push the envelope on a new saw, especially one that's destined to be a work saw. The gains don't merit the risk.


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## funky sawman (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It's a new saw. No reason to push the envelope on a new saw, especially one that's destined to be a work saw. The gains don't merit the risk.



when it was leaned out, was that about as far as you would go with that saw after it was broke in?


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

funky sawman said:


> when it was leaned out, was that about as far as you would go with that saw after it was broke in?



For work, yes. Maybe a couple hundred higher if only cutting cookies.


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## 2000ssm6 (Dec 4, 2010)

How does it compare to the 441? With the limited amount of run time.


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> How does it compare to the 441? With the limited amount of run time.



It's hard to say without running them side by side. At 48 seconds in, the 441 is cutting in a different piece from the same tree. The 441 is wearing a 28" whereas the 372 a 24".

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/chAy9EkbeVQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/chAy9EkbeVQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## 2000ssm6 (Dec 4, 2010)

When it gets back together, a run with them both would be nice.

What did that bad boy weigh?


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## funky sawman (Dec 4, 2010)

I like how brad stops cutting part way through the log to make sure it's still 4 stroken under no load, This is a very good way to tune, as the saw is usually running "cleaned out" after a few seconds of full throttle under load. Way to go brad


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## blsnelling (Dec 4, 2010)

2000ssm6 said:


> When it gets back together, a run with them both would be nice.
> 
> What did that bad boy weigh?



Sorry, but I didn't weigh it.

BTW, the piston will be ordered Monday morning, one day to the dealer, and one day to me.


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Yours isn't the only one. Everyone wants a saw all of the sudden. I can't let them get backed up. But I've never been one to keep someone's saw for any length of time. I like to get them done and back to their owner. I know how I'd be if it weremy saw.



No doubt, you do a great job turning them around quickly! I was surprised how quickly you got mine, got it ported, then got it into my hands.


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## roncoinc (Dec 4, 2010)

I went looking for the 261 Blsnelling mentioned but cant find it..
link ??


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 4, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> And now for the good news. The saw was holding 11,500 in the cut, with the bar buried in hard Pin Oak.
> 
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiQLdfFSl20?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiQLdfFSl20?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



Dangit man, that makes me want one! That saw was cutting strong!

Hate the port job didn't work out exactly right. Like you said, I guess it is bound to happen, especially on a new saw.


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## HUSKYMAN (Dec 4, 2010)

Good thread Brad I almost pulled the trigger on a 2172 today but the dealer wouldnt budge from sticker, so this thread came at a great time for me. It takes a lot of time to take and post and upload all those pics so thanks. I find it interesting to see what the build quality is on a brand new model of a new saw from the factory.

Keep up the good work


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## rms61moparman (Dec 5, 2010)

HARRY BARKER said:


> why oh why are you experimenting with customers saws?





HARRY BARKER said:


> you gonna tip that saw upside down and shake the pieces out like usual?





HARRY BARKER said:


> yeah,thats what i thought....turn it upside down and try to flush the small peices out and call it good......on a brand new saw.....OH WAIT! its not new anymore....its used and been trashed once! but youll grind up the port where the ring caught it and tell the customer that part of the port needed to go any way?





HARRY BARKER said:


> I dont want to give you too much credit,but your kinda like the SHAM-WOW guy.







Were you born that big of an azzhole or did it take years of work and study like getting a masters degree???
If Brad has actually done something to you why don't you work it out in P.M.s like a man instead of leaving your little dog droppings of (half) wit in an otherwise great thread?
Is it because you are jealous that he has a talent and skills that you don't possess?
Is your self esteem so low that you can only elevate yourself by deriding someone who tries to help people and share his knowledge?
You may think it makes you look "cute" but in actuality the exact opposite is true. Unless of course you think what a Dachshund drags through the snow is "cute"!
Don't go away mad.............just go away!!!
Some of us really like to follow Brad's threads and respect him for not covering up his mistakes. 
I wonder if you would have been as honest???


Mike


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## funky sawman (Dec 5, 2010)

rms61moparman said:


> Were you born that big of an azzhole or did it take years of work and study like getting a masters degree???
> If Brad has actually done something to you why don't you work it out in P.M.s like a man instead of leaving your little dog droppings of (half) wit in an otherwise great thread?
> Is it because you are jealous that he has a talent and skills that you don't possess?
> Is your self esteem so low that you can only elevate yourself by deriding someone who tries to help people and share his knowledge?
> ...



:agree2::agree2::agree2::yourock:


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## Anthony_Va. (Dec 5, 2010)

rms61moparman said:


> Were you born that big of an azzhole or did it take years of work and study like getting a masters degree???
> If Brad has actually done something to you why don't you work it out in P.M.s like a man instead of leaving your little dog droppings of (half) wit in an otherwise great thread?
> Is it because you are jealous that he has a talent and skills that you don't possess?
> Is your self esteem so low that you can only elevate yourself by deriding someone who tries to help people and share his knowledge?
> ...



THANK YOU!!!!

Let me add something. HARRYBARKER, are you and STIHLTHEDEERE the same guy? If not, you must be brothers or something. You both have so much in common. You both troll threads, spread negativity, and are both generally dumbarses. You both must be about the same age (12). 

I vote ban both of them. I'm tired of the same ole crap from both of them, whether they're the same guy or whatever.


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## weimedog (Dec 5, 2010)

weimedog said:


> So do you have a plan with this saw? Or is this a R&D project? (Hope fully not customer funded!) Interesting stuff. Thank you for posting these!



I guess R&D! The good news is even if this was a total worst case scenario, a new saw doesn't break the bank! Hopefully folks like your self have the resources to make the customer whole while doing these type of mods, sort of an insurance plan and excellent business practice...the price of risk of such work! Be nice to give the customer a new saw until the true R&D is actually done & tested for some level of reliability...and he's not out a thing...and then consider the R&D as an investment so you can get a reliable and repeatable build that now can be marketed...

NOT being a expert of any kind! I think I would have gone with the standard porting with the "non strato" build to see whats available in that modification alone! The increase in flow capability has to make a difference....then go for the porting internally. (If someone wants to be the funding this with the aproach that the money or saws are true investments..with all the risks implied...so be it! But its a tough deal to make a habit of selling a service and then effectively doing the R&Don a customer saw, especially if they need it to make a living!)

Seen this before in the motorcycle world back in the late 1970's early 1980's! Took companies like 'Pro Circuit" to force the after market business into a level of professionalism that takes the risk away from the customer and provide repeatable and predictable performance gains from a marketed modification (Such as cam or cylinder head mods, and now those LA Sleeve type big bore kits pioneered by Powroll). Race research & reliability testing happens way before a customer sends an order.

Sorry guys, but sort of expected this, its a statistics game; and may this be a lesson to all involved!..still really cool to see the innovation as well as the pictures..no pain no gain! I guess having said all that, two consenting adults can do what they please, and we are all better for it here as Brad has enlightened many and those pictures are really cool!


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

It lives again! Stronger than before! It's headed to the PO right now and will be in CT tomorrow. Thanks for bearing with me Paul. You've been awesome to work with! Despite the challenges, we still met your deadline


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## mdavlee (Dec 8, 2010)

Looks like it runs good.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Looks like it runs good.



It runs real good. I definately dodged a bullet on this one!


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

I see you down there Spike Thanks for the big help getting me the piston in super fast order.


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## mdavlee (Dec 8, 2010)

So is it stronger than a old 372 that would be ported the same? The husky dealer and jonsered dealer both have a new x torq in stock.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> So is it stronger than a old 372 that would be ported the same? The husky dealer and jonsered dealer both have a new x torq in stock.



I can't say either way. I don't have a standard ported 372 here to compare it to. Mine has a BB kit and a popup piston. It's stronger than this saw, but it should be. This saw will not disappoint.


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## mdavlee (Dec 8, 2010)

I was wanting a 2172 but wouldn't wait a month so I ended up with a 2171 and now I'm wondering if I'm missing something.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I was wanting a 2172 but wouldn't wait a month so I ended up with a 2171 and now I'm wondering if I'm missing something.



I wouldn't sweat it. You got a great saw.


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## mdavlee (Dec 8, 2010)

I figured that but there's always that little bit of doubt. That's how I ended up with the 660.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 8, 2010)

Sounds great!. That will be my next saw to play with.


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi Mike!


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi Paul! My wife just called to say it was dropped off at the PO.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It lives again! Stronger than before! It's headed to the PO right now and will be in CT tomorrow. Thanks for bearing with me Paul. You've been awesome to work with! Despite the challenges, we still met your deadline
> 
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

You've been awesome to work with too Brad. Thanks for your honesty and hard work I know this saw threw a wrench in the works, but believe me i really appreciate your communication and effort.

I cant wait to run it, she'll be getting a workout this weekend shes got 20 trees to have her way with:biggrinbounce2:

Shes got some attitude to her...I like it


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 8, 2010)

Hmmm, me likey the way that saw runs!

Gonna have to wait and see how the new 562XP runs....and hopefully after it's been ported....nudge, nudge, wink, wink......... ......:hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

Watch the AV flex at 1:44, and you can see how much load I'm really putting on that saw.


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## rms61moparman (Dec 8, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Hi Mike!



What's up Brad!

The saw looks great!
I think that one will be a keeper!


Mike


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## ale (Dec 8, 2010)

Man Brad, that video is getting my blood pumping...

I stopped by the "logger shop" today and they had (4) 372xp X-torque's on display, set up w/ 20" bars for $749.00.

...your video and this thread is making me want to spend all my Christmas money!!!


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## blsnelling (Dec 8, 2010)

ale said:


> Man Brad, that video is getting my blood pumping...
> 
> I stopped by the "logger shop" today and they had (4) 372xp X-torque's on display, set up w/ 20" bars for $749.00.
> 
> ...your video and this thread is making me want to spend all my Christmas money!!!



$749 isn't a bad price at all.


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## cpr (Dec 8, 2010)

Was in my local logger shop this am and the Husky rep was there. No XTs in the Great Lakes until the XPs are gone. Dealer made me an offer on an XP I am finding VERY hard to resist. I may do it, but the boss will KILL me...


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 8, 2010)

You can do it!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## dingeryote (Dec 8, 2010)

cpr said:


> Was in my local logger shop this am and the Husky rep was there. No XTs in the Great Lakes until the XPs are gone. Dealer made me an offer on an XP I am finding VERY hard to resist. I may do it, but the boss will KILL me...



CPR,

Got one just 7 miles from here. Holler if ya want it.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## cpr (Dec 9, 2010)

I fell asleep last night dreaming how cool it'd be to walk into his shop and say "I'll take the XP and that 576at and while you're at it, order me an XT, too."

XT seems cool, but I'd like to put away a 2nd XP first before I can't. I know I shouldn't, yet but wanna is tough to turn off...


----------



## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2010)

Go ahead and get both, that can be your christmas present and your new years present.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 9, 2010)

Im like a kid in a candy store right now. She'll be here today...I might do a little night time felling if the mood suits me...and it will


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2010)

Yeah the waiting is the hardest part. I try to order stuff for me while I'm working 6-7 days a week and can't mess with it. That way it's waiting on me when I get the time.


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## peter399 (Dec 9, 2010)

So the weight of the 372XT is still unknown ? I can only find the IPL and noone has put it on a scale ? Would be interesting to see if it is close to the regular 372 in weight.


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2010)

The one I handled didn't seem to weigh any more. The jonsered version said 14.2 I think. You can find specs on it on here in the threads about it. I think they might be closer to the truth with the weight now. My 2171 weighed 14.4 with dawgs on it dry.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

peter399 said:


> So the weight of the 372XT is still unknown ? I can only find the IPL and noone has put it on a scale ? Would be interesting to see if it is close to the regular 372 in weight.



There can't be much difference in weight. It's the same saw with a different P&C and carb.


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## Aaron441 (Dec 9, 2010)

Do you leave MS441's strato when you port them? I would think it would be harder to un stratify them because of the way the intake is made. Anybody ever try it?


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## peter399 (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> There can't be much difference in weight. It's the same saw with a different P&C and carb.



It would be interesting to see: 

1. Weight 
2. Power stock
3. Power modded

372XT vs 441.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

Aaron441 said:


> Do you leave MS441's strato when you port them? I would think it would be harder to un stratify them because of the way the intake is made. Anybody ever try it?



That is correct. The carb and intake on the MS441 and MS361 do not support the mods I'm doing to the 372XP X-TORQ and MS261. However, the 441 and 362 both respond much more favorably to traditional porting than the MS261 did. I'm doing another 362 tonight.


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

peter399 said:


> It would be interesting to see:
> 
> 1. Weight
> 2. Power stock
> ...



You'll have to find another sucker for those tests and comparisons. Too much crap came from the 261/346 thread for it to be worth my time and energy.


----------



## peter399 (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> You'll have to find another sucker for those tests and comparisons. Too much crap came from the 261/346 thread for it to be worth my time and energy.



Haha, I can understand you. Edisto will chime in  The 372 should win the weight round. What is your subjective feeling about 2 and 3 ?


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

peter399 said:


> Haha, I can understand you. Edisto will chime in  The 372 should win the weight round. What is your subjective feeling about 2 and 3 ?



Honestly, I'd have to time them. But I think the 441 *might *come out on top. *That's only a guess*. I also think it's smoother too. The 372 is far easier to work on though!


----------



## cpr (Dec 9, 2010)

Bunch of enablers! Some help you are...

Trying to be a responsible adult here...

:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## peter399 (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Honestly, I'd have to time them. But I think the 441 *might *come out on top. *That's only a guess*. I also think it's smoother too. The 372 is far easier to work on though!



372XT looks promising then. Weight of a regular 372, also easy to work on, better fuel economy and powerwise comparable to 372 and 441. Of course it will pull some sales away from the 576. Seems impossible for Husky to discontinue the 372 because of it's reputation


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

peter399 said:


> 372XT looks promising then. Weight of a regular 372, also easy to work on, better fuel economy and powerwise comparable to 372 and 441.



I assume you're talking stock? This X-TORQ is not really a strato any more. I would expect the 441 to better on fuel economy since the strato is still functional on it.


----------



## Tiger Rag (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> And now for the good news. The saw was holding 11,500 in the cut, with the bar buried in hard Pin Oak.
> 
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiQLdfFSl20?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eiQLdfFSl20?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>



Brad, is that a Husky hat you are wearing in this video? 

One question: How would you compare the sound (exhaust note) between the new saw and the old XP from first hand experience? The new one sounds pretty good on video, but hard to imagine it sounding much better than the old non-strato saw. Love the sound of a 372XP! :greenchainsaw:


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

My 372BB has twin 3/4" pipes in the muffler and turns more RPMs and with more compression from the popup, so it sounds meaner on the throttle. The X-TORQ has a nasty idle not though. It pops like a big cam

Yes, that's a Husky hat


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## mweba (Dec 9, 2010)

Great thread Brad. Good detail.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

mweba said:


> Great thread Brad. Good detail.
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



You've got to love the idle of that X-TORQ, but the on throttle tone of the traditional XP can't be beat.


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> My 372BB has twin 3/4" pipes in the muffler and turns more RPMs and with more compression from the popup, so it sounds meaner on the throttle. The X-TORQ has a nasty idle not though. It pops like a big cam
> 
> Yes, that's a Husky hat



Cool, thanks for the info, wouldn't want to lose that sound by going with a newer saw. Sometimes I like peace and quiet, but sometimes I like to be heard!

I would have expected a creamsicle hat. Cheers for diversity!


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

Tiger Rag said:


> Cool, thanks for the info, wouldn't want to lose that sound by going with a newer saw. Sometimes I like peace and quiet, but sometimes I like to be heard!
> 
> I would have expected a creamsicle hat. Cheers for diversity!



I've got Husky, Stihl, and Dolmar hats


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## wigglesworth (Dec 9, 2010)

Alright Brad, quit holding back.....we know you were filming when she went "bang".....


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> Alright Brad, quit holding back.....we know you were filming when she went "bang".....



Actually, I was not. Believe it or not, I don't film everything


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 9, 2010)

mweba said:


> Great thread Brad. Good detail.
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MyYL-EChUsM?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



Cool, thanks man! I tried to rep you, but apparently I am out for the day.

New one is little more lopey! Both sound great though.


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I've got Husky, Stihl, and Dolmar hats



Hmmm, Dolmar hat.....I need one of those! Need to check around.....my wife will love seeing me come home with another hat!....lol.


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## mweba (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> You've got to love the idle of that X-TORQ, but the on throttle tone of the traditional XP can't be beat.



:agree2:

Idles like a 288 but screams like a strato.


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## stipes (Dec 9, 2010)

*Awesome!!!!*



blsnelling said:


> It lives again! Stronger than before! It's headed to the PO right now and will be in CT tomorrow. Thanks for bearing with me Paul. You've been awesome to work with! Despite the challenges, we still met your deadline
> 
> 
> <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bd7qd7BE5O8?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>



I always love you work Brad,,and last weekend I pulled the 440 out to buck some wood for the spiltter,,,man she fired right up after sitting around for a few months...I love runnin that saw...She screams....He's gonna love it!!!!


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## ChipMonger (Dec 9, 2010)

Well shes here and accounted for. I thought its x-mas might as well treat my self to a new bar and loop of chain while im at it, so i picked up a new 24" bar and a new loop of 3/8" .050 Stihl RSC. We shall see how she does tomorrow:hmm3grin2orange::biggrinbounce2::hmm3grin2orange::biggrinbounce2:


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## wendell (Dec 9, 2010)

You're not going to go cut something now? Pansy! :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## mweba (Dec 9, 2010)

wendell said:


> You're not going to go cut something now? Pansy! :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:



You mean midnight.....RIGHT?


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

What happened to those midnight tree falling vids you were talking about last night?!!!


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## ChipMonger (Dec 9, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> What happened to those midnight tree falling vids you were talking about last night?!!!



Its not midnight yet> its only 945 here...Good thing i know all the cops because im sure a rucus will be heard :chainsawguy::chainsawguy:


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Its not midnight yet> its only 945 here...Good thing i know all the cops because im sure a rucus will be heard :chainsawguy::chainsawguy:



You won't do it. You don't have the nerve. You ain't man enough..........................:hmm3grin2orange::biggrinbounce2:


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## mdavlee (Dec 9, 2010)

Where's the video at? It shouldn't have took that long to cut a tree down with that saw.


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## wendell (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad, I think you need to use more discretion in who you do work for. This guy seems like a real light weight.


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## blsnelling (Dec 9, 2010)

wendell said:


> Brad, I think you need to use more discretion in who you do work for. This guy seems like a real light weight.


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## volks-man (Dec 9, 2010)

Are there any 'before' vids? 
I saw a brand new stock 372XT run neck and neck
with a heavily modified and wickedly fast 2171.

I'd bet a stock 372XT would run with my 7900 and I 
wonder if there was an appreciable gain in porting the XT.

Not hating, just wondering.


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## dingeryote (Dec 9, 2010)

volks-man said:


> Are there any 'before' vids?
> I saw a brand new stock 372XT run neck and neck
> with a heavily modified and wickedly fast 2171.
> 
> ...





Seriously, a 7900?

Ruh roh!!!

I ain't run one yet, now I have to and soon.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 10, 2010)

Brad I've seen all of your hats you should just come out of the closet, you know you're really a Husky/Dolmar man


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## funky sawman (Dec 10, 2010)

hahahahahahha, the YMCA poster in his window:hmm3grin2orange:


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## mdavlee (Dec 10, 2010)

That picture is still funny.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## ChipMonger (Dec 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


>



Oh the vid happened...Now to figure out how to load the damn thing. I did have to sleep on the couch for it though...was it worth it? OH YEAH:chainsawguy::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

ChipMonger + computers = Epic fail lol.


Got pics too, i'll try and get them up later...And for those of you with kids and watch sponge bob square pants there are a couple that you might find amusing lol...Long story short i was dared at halloween to dress up as Patrick Starfish and then dared again to drop a tree while in costume...I dont back down from challenges or dares. So, you'll get to have a couple laughs as well.

BTW....Brad...The saw RIPS!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## SWE#Kipp (Dec 10, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> To put it mildly, I'm not a happy camper. In this line of work, it's bound to catch up to you sooner or later. I just blew up my first customers saw Yup, you read that right. I put nearly a tank of fuel through the saw, and it ran perfectly. But I thought there was more in it, brought it home, gave it a few degrees if ignition timing advance, and was tuning it. It was at WOT and IT happened! The bottom ring snagged on the bottom of the exhaust port, and busted out the crown of the piston. I immediately yanked it apart. To my amazement, the cylinder is fine.
> 
> Here's what caused it. As a general rule of thumb, you never mess with the bottom of the exhaust port. In this case, the port bottom was too flat for as wide as I made it. On the bright side, there is litterally at least 1/4" of piston skirt below the exhaust port when the piston's at TDC. By the time I have the port shaped like I want it, the place where the ring snagged will be completely gone. I got soooo lucky. I'm also super thankful this happened to me now, and not after I shipped it.
> 
> ...



That happens to every one that build saws ,,,, it sucks but comes with the territory 

The saw runs very good though, so you did good in the end !!!


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Oh the vid happened...Now to figure out how to load the damn thing. I did have to sleep on the couch for it though...was it worth it? OH YEAH:chainsawguy::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> ChipMonger + computers = Epic fail lol.
> 
> ...



Hehehe, the challenge worked Glad you like the saw.


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 10, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Brad I've seen all of your hats you should just come out of the closet, you know you're really a Husky/Dolmar man



LOL, that is brutal! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## blsnelling (Dec 10, 2010)

I wish I were in CT right now. Sounds like a good time dropping all those trees. I hope you took your vadideo camera whicha!


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## volks-man (Dec 10, 2010)

volks-man said:


> Are there any 'before' vids?
> I saw a brand new stock 372XT run neck and neck
> with a heavily modified and wickedly fast 2171.
> 
> ...





dingeryote said:


> Seriously, a 7900?
> Ruh roh!!!
> 
> I ain't run one yet, now I have to and soon.
> ...



yes, seriously.
spike was running a new 372XT (only several tanks through) at the PA gtg and it was very fast.
i was kinda afraid to run my 7900 against it.... so i didn't.
but, the heavily worked 2171 was crazy fast and i requested that it be run against the 372xt and they were dead even.

i'd love to see a before and after porting comparo.....
if i missed a before vid while using the ipod... apologies.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 11, 2010)




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## Andyshine77 (Dec 11, 2010)




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## weimedog (Dec 11, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


>



I think a lesson I've learned is "fast" is a relative thing! Some saws I've seen rev to the moon & sound real impressive, but at the expense of torque & real world power to pull a chain under load.....what do you think chucker? Therefore before & after video's make some sense..but u still don't know 4 certain unless u run them yourself....in many motor sports a dyno is used to quantify what the rider/driver feels..we need a dyno here as a standard to test builds!


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 11, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I think a lesson I've learned is "fast" is a relative thing! Some saws I've seen rev to the moon & sound real impressive, but at the expense of torque & real world power to pull a chain under load.....what do you think chucker?



Yes but what about the Beer?:hmm3grin2orange:


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## weimedog (Dec 11, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


>



Enough of this stuff and any build is going to look good! (But what about in the morning?)


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 11, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Enough of this stuff and any build is going to look good! (But what about in the morning?)



I'll be right as rain. Only bad beer gives you a hangover.


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## SawTroll (Dec 11, 2010)

I am not really sure, but I have a distinct feeling that some people at this site do their "best" to couse problems for Brad on purpose, despite they don't need to?


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## mdavlee (Dec 11, 2010)

Were's the videos at Chipmonger? opcorn:


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## volks-man (Dec 11, 2010)

SawTroll said:


> I am not really sure, but I have a distinct feeling that some people at this site do their "best" to couse problems for Brad on purpose, despite they don't need to?



if directed at me... you are aiming at the wrong guy.
though i have been hung up in some 'scandles' involving snelling, i try not to instigate anything.

porting is for power gains...
if there is no gain then you shouldn't port it.

all i was trying to say is that the 372XT is very fast STOCK. therefor our seeing just an 'after' vid with a fast saw proves only one thing....
that the 372xt is fast. but it already was in stock form.


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## weimedog (Dec 11, 2010)

lol...I guess I've seen the fastest 80cc limbing saw on the planet once...could probably cut 15 inch and down at 14k plus even under pressure! Actually made an 70cc mistake that way...myself with simply a random muffler mod (for testing purposes btw)! Point is a reference point from a stock saw shows the gains or losses..but even then you don't see how the power band has been changed. Research and development with the time and numbers to back up a mod is the right way vs. a random approach. Saw are cheap..There is no way in HELL I would send my motorcycle components to be ground on unless there was a proven track record on that particular mod. So at a minimum, before and after documentation is a form of track record that can prove or disprove an approach. Opening ports might move the power up the rpm range..or just allow more rpm's Without tuning devices such as power valve, pipes, etc its real hard..especially on piston port designs to have generic mods add power everywhere!...So you tell me what you really know when watching a video of a saw cutting a random block of wood? I'm not wishing anyone bad gas..I just want to see the R&D done before accepting cash for generic mods. I want to see before and afters on the specific mods BEFORE having folks send their means of making a living...I also want to see testing to give a sense of reliability change..that can only happen with testing in the field over a period of time. A solution is having customer funded and reporting in concert with folks like Brad, where up front its known that this is an R&D project with all the risks implied..and in return reliability testing & field use reporting, and a before test with a verifiable after test is done by the willing partner in the R&D project. 


This is a rather accepting group here and ripe for the taking as this is a developing motor sport and many forget the lessons learn in other more developed forms of motor sports (That are being repeated here!)...or never learned them as many never participated in other forms! So this is this huge international forum to a whole new audience! Very powerful stuff. I have seen this before and wonder why we have to repeat it yet again...Yoshimura & Pro Circuit, Jack Roush and so many others in motorcycles, snowmobiles, and cars show how to play this game. We need to do the same here for those who modify for money..(as compared to the enthusiast who's knowingly hacking up a saw for fun..and if it doesn't work...who cares!)


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## weimedog (Dec 11, 2010)

Oh..BTW, any one can say.."yes its faster" and broad cast that in cyber space!..U know my first thoughts are going to be, by how much? And how do you know? Show me the numbers!

Another time proven way is..racing. That's a way to test mods vs. both stock and other guys. SO an answer to the question posed above could be...I took second place in class....XYZ Whatever against the following saws..and my times were...etc. And the saw that won was also built by the same guy who did mine!

What do u think guys..is that going to happen with these Strato saws mods?


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## blsnelling (Dec 11, 2010)

I just called and talked to Chipmonger to checkup on my "patient". He's been out working the saw on a job, tried to make a post last night, but had issues with AS. He's put 5-6 tanks through the saw and says it's really waking up. The saws running great, says it's right on the heals of his ported 390XP We should here from him sometime this weekend, when he gets free from work.


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## mdavlee (Dec 11, 2010)

Good to here it's doing well. I would like to see a video of both of them if he can get it on here.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 13, 2010)

Im working on the right up, with pics and video. My camera met its demise at the hands of chipper blades (No, im not kidding!) it been replaced and since we will be continuing work this saturday i'll be sure to get some pics up ASAP...

Im really liking the saw, and like i said a detailed right up is on its way. Sorry for the hold up.


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## parrisw (Dec 13, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Im working on the right up, with pics and video. My camera met its demise at the hands of chipper blades (No, im not kidding!) it been replaced and since we will be continuing work this saturday i'll be sure to get some pics up ASAP...
> 
> Im really liking the saw, and like i said a detailed right up is on its way. Sorry for the hold up.



LOL, that camera never knew what happened!! 

My friend accidentally put his tool box through his Vermeer BC1000, there were screwdrivers stuck into the back of the chip box on the truck!! LOL


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## volks-man (Dec 13, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Im working on the right up, with pics and video.  My camera met its demise at the hands of chipper blades (No, im not kidding!) it been replaced and since we will be continuing work this saturday i'll be sure to get some pics up ASAP...
> 
> Im really liking the saw, and like i said a detailed right up is on its way. Sorry for the hold up.



dude, that sucks!


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## willysmn (Dec 13, 2010)

*chipmonger*

I can understand how a comera could fall into a chipper, but a toolbox??? OUCH.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 15, 2010)

Well after Brad ripped all remaining hair from his head he managed to get my 372 X-Torq back together and running strong. I commend his efforts as this project was not an easy one. I knew full well what the possible issues could be going into this ordeal, but Brad has been nothing short of spectacular to work with.

I got a new 24” 3/8 .050 bar and a new loop of Stihl RSC. I figured its Christmas time I’ll splurge a little bit. I was like the stereotypical kid in the candy store when the Husqvarna box came lol. I fit her up, filed the tanks and got a wet weight of 16.8lbs (That’s with 2cycle and bar oil). I think this is the perfect combo for this saw very balanced and easy to maneuver into any position. For me, its more than “all day useable” meaning the likely hood of fatigue is very low, at least from my standpoint

Choke on, decomp valve pressed, two rips of the starter cord and a sputter. Choke in one rip and shes running. When I pulled the starter cord, the feeling was similar to my 390, felt like the motor has higher compression. Brad do you have a compression number for it? The sound at idle is unique. It’s a little rough like a big block with a lumpy cam in it and has the same tone as a snowmobile with a race pipe on it. Sorry, but that’s the best I can explain it lol. I gave her a long warm up 2mins plus if I had to guess, it was cold Saturday morning. Throttle response is nice and snappy, and NO VIBRATION even with the bar tip buried there was no chatter at all. Husky Nailed the AV system on this saw as far as im concerned…Now as much as I like the saw someone needs to KICK Husqvarna in the teeth for putting these pathetic dawgs on there saws…Husqvarna, Get it together already! These things SUCK!!!:censored::taped: No other way to put it.

Now for the bad news…my camera that had some good pics on it and a short video went through the chipper!!!...ChipMonger was non to thrilled, the groundie who was responsible has replaced the camera

Sat was the true test. Felling, limbing, bucking, and chipping brush of 23 (yup the number went up) Swamp maple and ash trees. First victim was a large swamp maple about 60-70 feet. Face made, back bared the back cut, boom tree hit the ground. I was a little amazed at this point because the speed was almost on par with my snellerized 390. Mind you I run either a 28” or 36” on my 390 with Stihl full-skip, and the 372 wears a 24” and full comp RSC, so I need to set up a test with the 24” and RSC on both saws. Anyway, I bucked up the log and limbed it with the same results…Lots of speed. Previous to me getting the saw Brad had run approx 2 tanks through it. By about the 5-6 tank she started to open her eyes and wake up. Currently the saw has 8 tanks through it and it keeps getting better.

Fuel usage isn’t bad, that being said I don’t care if I burn 2 gallons an hour as long as a lot of wood is hitting the ground, and that it was. After refueling the saw needs to be choked to start it, I spoke with Brad, and its in the tune, he told me what to adjust and that problem is fixed. The ergonomics of the saw, for me, are great the starter side of the saw has ample room for large hands such as mine. Id like to get a full wrap for the 372, does anyone know if a fullwrap is available?

Overall im very pleased with the saw. I think as she continues to break in the power will increase slightly. I’ll get some more pics this weekend, and will do my best to get a video up as well, but it might have to wait.

By all means if anyone has questions please ask. Thanks for reading.


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## blsnelling (Dec 15, 2010)

Excellent review, and thanks for the kind words. I couldn't be happier to see this saw doing right for you! I would think any 372 wrap handle would fit. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they changed that part of the saw.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 15, 2010)

You deserve the kind words Brad, you sure earned em' as far as im concerned.

If i send you some pics can you post them. Im computer dumb lol. If so whats your email?


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## blsnelling (Dec 15, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> If i send you some pics can you post them. Im computer dumb lol. If so whats your email?



Absolutely. I'll PM you my email addy.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 15, 2010)

Pics sent.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 15, 2010)

Damn that must be a hungry chipper!.


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## blsnelling (Dec 15, 2010)

I got three pics from ChipMonger.








Looks like he's using a dull chain


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## ChipMonger (Dec 15, 2010)

These are the only pics i have since my cam got chipped lol...I'll have more on saturday for Brad to post. The trees on the ground are four swamp maples and one ash. And yes, my chain was "dull" 

Thanks for posting them Brad


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## SWE#Kipp (Dec 15, 2010)

The handle on the new 372 seems to be an "uniqe" part as the cyl and carb and the front part of the topcover ,,,


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## 8433jeff (Dec 15, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> These are the only pics i have since my cam got chipped lol...I'll have more on saturday for Brad to post. The trees on the ground are four swamp maples and one ash. And yes, my chain was "dull"
> 
> Thanks for posting them Brad



WTH is a swamp maple?


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## rms61moparman (Dec 15, 2010)

In Kentucky we call them "Water Maples" they are a silver maple that grows in the presence of an abundance of water.
They will be soft to medium hard depending on the growing conditions and are heavy as HELL when first cut but after seasoning weigh and burn like pine.


Mike


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## ChipMonger (Dec 15, 2010)

rms61moparman said:


> In Kentucky we call them "Water Maples" they are a silver maple that grows in the presence of an abundance of water.
> They will be soft to medium hard depending on the growing conditions and are heavy as HELL when first cut but after seasoning weigh and burn like pine.
> 
> 
> Mike




What he said:hmm3grin2orange: lol


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 15, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I've seen rev to the moon & sound real impressive, but at the expense of torque & real world power to pull a chain under load.....what do you think chucker?



I've seen it happen. Any saw will move a chain. Any saw can be easily made to free rev at high RPMs. But a saw that will pull an aggressive chain under heavy load and hold good RPMs - now that's *real* power. 

Saws that turn high RPMs out of the wood and sound good are what most presume to be "good". Even if a saw is turning good RPMs in the wood, that doesn't say very much. How aggressive is the chain?? How hard is the saw being pushed?? The true question is how hard is the saw working in ratio to the RPMs it's holding while cutting.

The sound of a modded muffler and a saw free revving 15k+ is always impressive sounding. Especially to those who don't know. I've seen saws that I thought were impressive - but once they touch the wood the RPMs drop significantly. 

The issue though is not fully knowing what was before, and not fully comprehending what exists after.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> I've seen it happen. Any saw will move a chain. Any saw can be easily made to free rev at high RPMs. But a saw that will pull an aggressive chain under heavy load and hold good RPMs - now that's *real* power.
> 
> Saws that turn high RPMs out of the wood and sound good are what most presume to be "good". Even if a saw is turning good RPMs in the wood, that doesn't say very much. How aggressive is the chain?? How hard is the saw being pushed?? The true question is how hard is the saw working in ratio to the RPMs it's holding while cutting.
> 
> ...



:spam:?????


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

I think weimedog is referring to RPMs in the racing world. And how RPMs are only relative. At the few races I've been at I've seen some saws that scream out of the wood but once under load with an aggressive chain they fall flat on their face. 

The sound has a lot to do with it. Whether it's four wheelers, cars, saws or what have you. High RPMs under not much of a load and a throaty sound can appear really impressive, but the performance may not be - and how "good sounds" can skew what you're actually seeing.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> I think weimedog is referring to RPMs in the racing world. And how RPMs are only relative. At the few races I've been at I've seen some saws that scream out of the wood but once under load with an aggressive chain they fall flat on their face.
> 
> The sound has a lot to do with it. Whether it's four wheelers, cars, saws or what have you. High RPMs under not much of a load and a throaty sound can appear really impressive, but the performance may not be - and how "good sounds" can skew what you're actually seeing.



Very good, and I agree.

One thing to keep in mind. Well all have a starting point, and sometimes it's easy to forget where we've came from, myself included.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

Heh. It's kinda like my Ford Ranger. It's a 4.0L V6. I wanna get an exhaust for it, which will increase it's power (not by much, but enough) and sound a little bit better. I'm on a Ranger forum and figured I should do headers as well. Not racing headers or anything, just a basic street upgrade. I was checking out some vids on YouTube of similar Rangers with a similar setup. The funny thing is, even though street headers make it sound badass, dyno results on the forum consistently show torque and horsepower loss when the header is used in every application unless the owner has a supercharger!! 

The only real gain is throttle response and that kick ass sound. But before I did any research I was listening to the sounds in the bids and I was way excited about getting headers for my truck. So much for that idea!!


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## MCW (Dec 16, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> I was a little amazed at this point because the speed was almost on par with my snellerized 390.



Good thread and Brad is certainly excellent to deal with, even from the other side of the world 

On a short note, and I have a couple of Snellerized 390's, just lean into the 390's a bit more and you'll probably find the new 372 won't keep up. I originally thought my modded 7900's were very very close, until you start leaning on them - that's when the extra cc's and torque kick in. Same goes for the 390's vs. my stock Husky 3120. All seems equal until you realise you can basically sit on the 3120 and it will still pull the same revs in the cut. In reality my stock 3120 eats my 390's. No question which saw I'd rather cut trees down with all day 

Of course I could be wrong, and in that case I may be in touch with Brad for a new 372


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## ChipMonger (Dec 16, 2010)

MCW said:


> Good thread and Brad is certainly excellent to deal with, even from the other side of the world
> 
> On a short note, and I have a couple of Snellerized 390's, *just lean into the 390's a bit more and you'll probably find the new 372 won't keep up*. I originally thought my modded 7900's were very very close, until you start leaning on them - that's when the extra cc's and torque kick in. Same goes for the 390's vs. my stock Husky 3120. All seems equal until you realise you can basically sit on the 3120 and it will still pull the same revs in the cut. In reality my stock 3120 eats my 390's. No question which saw I'd rather cut trees down with all day
> 
> Of course I could be wrong, and in that case I may be in touch with Brad for a new 372



Matt-

I agree, theres no replacement for displacement:hmm3grin2orange:...Its a rare opportunity that im in wood big enough to make the 390 shine like i know it does. I had a couple jobs where the 390 made perfect sense because of the size wood i was in. I'm loving this 372, its becoming a definite favorite. I only have approx 8 tanks through it and its steadily waking up, so we'll see what happens. In my opinion, this 372 is fast, has great torque, and for the majority of users plenty of saw for the majority of us...but then this thing called CAD comes into play and bungs everything up:biggrinbounce2:. I'll send it to you for a demo run but i need it back by Saturday early A.M. hows that work for you? lol


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## MCW (Dec 16, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Matt-
> 
> I agree, theres no replacement for displacement:hmm3grin2orange:...Its a rare opportunity that im in wood big enough to make the 390 shine like i know it does. I had a couple jobs where the 390 made perfect sense because of the size wood i was in. I'm loving this 372, its becoming a definite favorite. I only have approx 8 tanks through it and its steadily waking up, so we'll see what happens. In my opinion, this 372 is fast, has great torque, and for the majority of users plenty of saw for the majority of us...but then this thing called CAD comes into play and bungs everything up:biggrinbounce2:. I'll send it to you for a demo run but i need it back by Saturday early A.M. hows that work for you? lol



Give me 6 months and it's a deal  I know what you mean though, when you don't need those bigger saws you appreciate the smaller, lighter ones. My 79cc Makita was my go to saw for quite a while unless it was a 32" bar or over. Then I sold it but kept the top end which is where all the money and fun was 

Damn that CAD...


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

Yeah but a great limbing saw is a 7900 with a 16" bar and 8 pin rim.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 16, 2010)

MCW said:


> Give me 6 months and it's a deal  I know what you mean though, when you don't need those bigger saws *you appreciate the smaller, lighter ones*. My 79cc Makita was my go to saw for quite a while unless it was a 32" bar or over. Then I sold it but kept the top end which is where all the money and fun was
> 
> Damn that CAD...



Very true. I dont consider the 390 heavy, but the nimbleness of the smaller saws is nice once in a while. Hope all is well in Australia. Id love to get down there and cut some of the wood you guys have down there, stringy bark, blue gum etc. That would be fun.


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## mdavlee (Dec 16, 2010)

I couldn't tell much weight difference between a 372xpw and a 390 with half wrap. I ran both with 28" bars. I just used semi skip on the 372, and full comp on the 390.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> I couldn't tell much weight difference between a 372xpw and a 390 with half wrap. I ran both with 28" bars. I just used semi skip on the 372, and full comp on the 390.




What ever happened to your 576?? That must have fit right in re middle somewhere!


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## mdavlee (Dec 16, 2010)

Blue ridge mark is the new owner of it. Yeah it was almost as heavy as the 390 with less power. It would be fine as a big saw in someone's lineup but it doesn't fit in as the small saw. Right now I'm using the 2171 as a limbing saw if I even pick it up. It hasn't been ran but about 2 minutes since the 660 got here. I'm hoping the stihl light bar will be here tomorrow or saturday to go on the 660 and I'll probably use it all the time for everything.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I think a lesson I've learned is "fast" is a relative thing! Some saws I've seen rev to the moon & sound real impressive, but at the expense of torque & real world power to pull a chain under load.....what do you think chucker? Therefore before & after video's make some sense..but u still don't know 4 certain unless u run them yourself....in many motor sports a dyno is used to quantify what the rider/driver feels..we need a dyno here as a standard to test builds!





weimedog said:


> I guess R&D! The good news is even if this was a total worst case scenario, a new saw doesn't break the bank! Hopefully folks like your self have the resources to make the customer whole while doing these type of mods, sort of an insurance plan and excellent business practice...the price of risk of such work! Be nice to give the customer a new saw until the true R&D is actually done & tested for some level of reliability...and he's not out a thing...and then consider the R&D as an investment so you can get a reliable and repeatable build that now can be marketed...
> 
> NOT being a expert of any kind! I think I would have gone with the standard porting with the "non strato" build to see whats available in that modification alone! The increase in flow capability has to make a difference....then go for the porting internally. (If someone wants to be the funding this with the aproach that the money or saws are true investments..with all the risks implied...so be it! But its a tough deal to make a habit of selling a service and then effectively doing the R&Don a customer saw, especially if they need it to make a living!)
> 
> ...





weimedog said:


> lol...I guess I've seen the fastest 80cc limbing saw on the planet once...could probably cut 15 inch and down at 14k plus even under pressure! Actually made an 70cc mistake that way...myself with simply a random muffler mod (for testing purposes btw)! Point is a reference point from a stock saw shows the gains or losses..but even then you don't see how the power band has been changed. Research and development with the time and numbers to back up a mod is the right way vs. a random approach. Saw are cheap..There is no way in HELL I would send my motorcycle components to be ground on unless there was a proven track record on that particular mod. So at a minimum, before and after documentation is a form of track record that can prove or disprove an approach. Opening ports might move the power up the rpm range..or just allow more rpm's Without tuning devices such as power valve, pipes, etc its real hard..especially on piston port designs to have generic mods add power everywhere!...So you tell me what you really know when watching a video of a saw cutting a random block of wood? I'm not wishing anyone bad gas..I just want to see the R&D done before accepting cash for generic mods. I want to see before and afters on the specific mods BEFORE having folks send their means of making a living...I also want to see testing to give a sense of reliability change..that can only happen with testing in the field over a period of time. A solution is having customer funded and reporting in concert with folks like Brad, where up front its known that this is an R&D project with all the risks implied..and in return reliability testing & field use reporting, and a before test with a verifiable after test is done by the willing partner in the R&D project.
> 
> 
> This is a rather accepting group here and ripe for the taking as this is a developing motor sport and many forget the lessons learn in other more developed forms of motor sports (That are being repeated here!)...or never learned them as many never participated in other forms! So this is this huge international forum to a whole new audience! Very powerful stuff. I have seen this before and wonder why we have to repeat it yet again...Yoshimura & Pro Circuit, Jack Roush and so many others in motorcycles, snowmobiles, and cars show how to play this game. We need to do the same here for those who modify for money..(as compared to the enthusiast who's knowingly hacking up a saw for fun..and if it doesn't work...who cares!)





weimedog said:


> Oh..BTW, any one can say.."yes its faster" and broad cast that in cyber space!..U know my first thoughts are going to be, by how much? And how do you know? Show me the numbers!
> 
> Another time proven way is..racing. That's a way to test mods vs. both stock and other guys. SO an answer to the question posed above could be...I took second place in class....XYZ Whatever against the following saws..and my times were...etc. And the saw that won was also built by the same guy who did mine!
> 
> What do u think guys..is that going to happen with these Strato saws mods?





WoodChucker81 said:


> I've seen it happen. Any saw will move a chain. Any saw can be easily made to free rev at high RPMs. But a saw that will pull an aggressive chain under heavy load and hold good RPMs - now that's *real* power.
> 
> Saws that turn high RPMs out of the wood and sound good are what most presume to be "good". Even if a saw is turning good RPMs in the wood, that doesn't say very much. How aggressive is the chain?? How hard is the saw being pushed?? The true question is how hard is the saw working in ratio to the RPMs it's holding while cutting.
> 
> ...



There's a lot of passive aggression going on here. Lots of implications being made. I know where you guys are coming from. Your *single *point of reference was an anomoly. Now you want to take that brush and try to paint a broad picture. I've got a lot of happy customers, and that speaks for itself.

Your also forgetting something else. You're going to a race saw builder for your saws. I don't build race saws, don't know how, and don't pretend to. So again, your point of reference is squewed.

On another point, I've seen my saws walk all over saws built by other builders. What you're doing is no different than me coming on here and telling how my saws are better than so and sos. You're not going to see that happen. Not every saw can be a winner. And it also doesn't make the slower saw a bad saw.

I also don't see you bringing anything to the table. You want R&D and all this other crap? Are you offering to support this with your time and money? I don't think so. Are you porting saws and figuring out how to make the new technology work? Another no. This isn't the "experimenting" you try to make it out to be. I've been in a number of strato saws now, and they have all responded well. The same basic porting techniques still apply. It's all about flow.

So cut the crap, buy your saws from who you think gives you the best for your buck, and leave all the crap slinging at home. Most of this crap originates from a single source, and you're simply drinking the coolaide. Come back and talk to me in a couple years, and see if you're still singing the same song.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 16, 2010)

I ignored these clowns until now...

Come to CT and i'll be happy to put any one of my saws in your hands and you can see for yourself how they run. I'll admit im critical of a lot of things especially when i see flaws i'll rip em apart. I can be down right brutal, but when im happy im happy, and these saws do what they are supposed to above anything else i have run. Take the trash somewhere else, and keep this thread on tact and clean. 

Just to be clear, this isnt directed at you Brad


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

None of my points are directed at you directly, but this is a perfect place to discuss the business of online selling of services where there has to be a leap of faith to spend the dollars....just I want to see the same type of rigorous work done in this developing motorsport world as the other ones I have been a part of. So if your sensitive AND if the shoe fits wear it. That's all. No implications one way or the other. Now...maybe you know things I don't and that has hit a nerve...that's for others to discuss not me. I am happy for you that you have a following that can help pay for your hobby, And as I have said before your input usually is creative..lots to be said for that. Keep doing what you are doing! So if you take offense at my holding those to the fire who charge for for porting and performance services. Too bad. I will say the same thing to anyone one who either wants to spend the dollars on modifications or wants to build a market place modifying saws. You have to have a definable and tangible product as the subjective nature of this place can sell something that is...fashion and subjective vs. real and quantitative. The fact is this is fertile ground..you are entrepreneurial enough to till it..just I ask that those who want to play do it with eyes open. And my friend I have no problem going head to head with you on this topic. Lots of history in the motorsports world to use as reference points. So are you implying that R&D isn't required..a finger in the air based on a few saw is enough? Or are you implying that you have done the research and fall into the category of a responsible builder with data to back up your claims? You call it...which are you? To this point I have put you in the realm of a creative and developing builder who is building an experience base and a track record as time goes on...how do you see your self?


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

At what point have I said anything about you as a builder?? At what point have I said you don't have any happy customers??

I didn't build any of the ported saws I own, nor do I plan to. Weimedog asked me a question in general, so I answered it speaking about my observations regarding my experience at limited races. 

I'm not even talking about the saw in this thread, or any saw in specific. Well actually no, I'm lying. There was a 281 at a race I was at last summer and it was all RPMs. It was piped and running on alky, it screamed out of the wood but once under load it just couldn't hold it's own.

Weimedog was talking about building race quads, not just saws. I figured I'd throw in my two sense to add to the conversation since he asked me what I thought.

This isn't that big of a deal, it's just the internet.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> None of my points are directed at you directly, but this is a perfect place to discuss the business of online selling of services where there has to be a leap of faith to spend the dollars....just I want to see the same type of rigorous work done in this developing motorsport world as the other ones I have been a part of. So if your sensitive AND if the shoe fits wear it. That's all. No implications one way or the other. Now...maybe you know things I don't and that has hit a nerve...that's for others to discuss not me. I am happy for you that you have a following that can help pay for your hobby, And as I have said before your input usually is creative..lots to be said for that. Keep doing what you are doing! So if you take offense at my holding those to the fire who charge for for porting and performance services. Too bad. I will say the same thing to anyone one who either wants to spend the dollars on modifications or wants to build a market place modifying saws. You have to have a definable and tangible product as the subjective nature of this place can sell something that is...fashion and subjective vs. real and quantitative. The fact is this is fertile ground..you are entrepreneurial enough to till it..just I ask that those who want to play do it with eyes open. And my friend I have no problem going head to head with you on this topic. Lots of history in the motorsports world to use as reference points. So are you implying that R&D isn't required..a finger in the air based on a few saw is enough? Or are you implying that you have done the research and fall into the category of a responsible builder with data to back up your claims? You call it...which are you? To this point I have put you in the realm of a creative and developing builder who is building an experience base and a track record as time goes on...how do you see your self?



It would be real nice if we had that kind of AM support, but we don't. We're just too small of a market. What you're talking about would take tons of time and money. I don't ever see it happening.


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> I ignored these clowns until now...
> 
> Come to CT and i'll be happy to put any one of my saws in your hands and you can see for yourself how they run. I'll admit im critical of a lot of things especially when i see flaws i'll rip em apart. I can be down right brutal, but when im happy im happy, and these saws do what they are supposed to above anything else i have run. Take the trash somewhere else, and keep this thread on tact and clean.
> 
> Just to be clear, this isnt directed at you Brad




I am glad you are happy with your saw...money well spent. So bring it to some GTG's...or even better give Brad some exposure at the saw racing events if you fit into any of the classes. He's lucky to have a customer and free marketing. Let us know over time how the saw deals with the world you live in. That's a way to generate data. That's a creative build and pretty much answers the question all have asked about the life after 372XP ..guess there is one.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I am glad you are happy with your saw...money well spent. So bring it to some GTG's...or even better give Brad some exposure at the saw racing events if you fit into any of the classes. He's lucky to have a customer and free marketing. Let us know over time how the saw deals with the world you live in. That's a way to generate data. That's a creative build and pretty much answers the question all have asked about the life after 372XP ..guess there is one.



Again, I'm not building race saws. There is a big difference. I'm sure I could learn to build race saws, but I have no interest.


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It would be real nice if we had that kind of AM support, but we don't. We're just too small of a market. What you're talking about would take tons of time and money. I don't ever see it happening.



So you don't disagree with my premise at all..didn't think you would...just that the dollars aren't there in how you have built your business model. May I suggest that's why the racing thing works as real time and documented way of exposing performance concepts?..That along with customers like ChipMonger to fill in the reliability and fuel usage side is a low cost way of developing that track record. Just all have to understand this a customer funded effort and therefore they also shoulder the risk, and that understanding is what my thread is about. Do you disagree with that?


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Again, I'm not building race saws. There is a big difference. I'm sure I could learn to build race saws, but I have no interest.



So why would I spend my money with you vs. some of the other builders out there? Simple question many will ask. How do you differentiate your builds vs. others? Why not get into an arena where there is a quantitative way to compare yours vs. others? What better way of defining yourself as a builder? I know the answer....as long as your getting customers...why go out on a limb? (pretty punny..don't you think?)

You could say that customer service is your thing...maybe reliability..more power reliable & low risk..the bling factor. I'm now curious on how you define yourself.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> So why would I spend my money with you vs. some of the other builders out there? Simple question many will ask. How do you differentiate your builds vs. others?



If you want a race saw, go to someone that builds race saws. If you want a work saw, I think my reputation speaks for itself. Bottom line, I'm not competing with any other builder. I've actually referred people to other builders for particular models. The 7900/681 is one the Jimmy from Nebraska has really cracked the code on. No secret there. I'm not here to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

Is that what this is about?? 

Jay from Nebray and my stupid ####ing 681 again??


Ugh I wish this could be let go..... I should really throw that saw off of a cliff and be done with it for good.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Is that what this is about??
> 
> Jay from Nebray and my stupid ####ing 681 again??
> 
> ...



No, no, no. I'm seriously complimenting what he does with those saws. It's nothing short of amazing!


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> If you want a race saw, go to someone that builds race saws. If you want a work saw, I think my reputation speaks for itself. Bottom line, I'm not competing with any other builder. I've actually referred people to other builders for particular models. The 7900/681 is one the Jimmy from Nebraska has really cracked the code on. No secret there. I'm not here to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.



And that's good enough for many and why you have and will always have enough work to keep you busy. But...I still ask the question and will continue to make this point. I'm not going where you are hinting on your last post, not my style and none of my business and I certainly don't know enough specifics to say a damn thing online. See that is the difference between me and others. If I post it, either I will qualify my knowledge or simply won't say anything in those subjective area's. One thing you can take to the bank, my opinion relative to charging dollars for modifying anything is based simply on my experience with racing for almost as many years as you have been alive and would say the same to any and all who would play in this performance building arena. All I know about a variety of saw builders to this point is what I read and see here. And what I see with my own saws, at my GTG's and the other GTG's I have attended. I tend to work on empirical data when it comes to performance. Spent way too many years in the performance world to do anything else.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> No, no, no. I'm seriously complimenting what he does with those saws. It's nothing short of amazing!



Well I guess I can't argue with ya there.....


Let's all chill out and help ourselves to an entire bag of salt and vinegar chips.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Well I guess I can't argue with ya there.....
> 
> 
> Let's all chill out and help ourselves to an entire bag of salt and vinegar chips.



Please pass the chips


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Please pass the chips



ditto..


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## funky sawman (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Is that what this is about??
> 
> Jay from Nebray and my stupid ####ing 681 again??
> 
> ...



Why ya so pissed off with that solo 681 fur??? What cliff ya throwing of of?


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

funky sawman said:


> Why ya so pissed off with that solo 681 fur??? What cliff ya throwing of of?



I'm not pissed about the 681. Rather pleased with it actually. Just know that.


The other part, don't ask. Just eat some friggin' chips.


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## weimedog (Dec 16, 2010)

Half the web site would be there to try and catch it!:chainsawguy:


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Half the web site would be there to try and catch it!:chainsawguy:



I'd be there, no doubt about that


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## funky sawman (Dec 16, 2010)

SO, whats the final conclusion on the 372XT? The one I had was a turd, mabie I got a lemon saw.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

funky sawman said:


> SO, whats the final conclusion on the 372XT? The one I had was a turd, mabie I got a lemon saw.



Right here.



ChipMonger said:


> Well after Brad ripped all remaining hair from his head he managed to get my 372 X-Torq back together and running strong. I commend his efforts as this project was not an easy one. I knew full well what the possible issues could be going into this ordeal, but Brad has been nothing short of spectacular to work with.
> 
> I got a new 24” 3/8 .050 bar and a new loop of Stihl RSC. I figured its Christmas time I’ll splurge a little bit. I was like the stereotypical kid in the candy store when the Husqvarna box came lol. I fit her up, filed the tanks and got a wet weight of 16.8lbs (That’s with 2cycle and bar oil). I think this is the perfect combo for this saw very balanced and easy to maneuver into any position. For me, its more than “all day useable” meaning the likely hood of fatigue is very low, at least from my standpoint
> 
> ...


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## funky sawman (Dec 16, 2010)

I couldn't get my 372Xt to idle. top end was fine but it wouldn't idle at the same rpm twice. Every time you would let off the throttle it would be very rich at idle then would lean out by itself. I replaced the carb and that problem was cured but then it would die when the saw was tipped vertically bar down. The saw was pressure and vac tested but no leaks. Poss bad-lot of carbs. I tried a muffler mod and the saw got weaker??????
It prolly a good saw if it had a better quality carb on it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

funky sawman said:


> I couldn't get my 372Xt to idle. top end was fine but it wouldn't idle at the same rpm twice. Every time you would let off the throttle it would be very rich at idle then would lean out by itself. I replaced the carb and that problem was cured but then it would die when the saw was tipped vertically bar down. The saw was pressure and vac tested but no leaks. Poss bad-lot of carbs. I tried a muffler mod and the saw got weaker??????
> It prolly a good saw if it had a better quality carb on it.



I didn't experience any of those symptoms. Of course I only put a couple tanks of fuel through it, and did not run it at all stock.


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## Metals406 (Dec 16, 2010)

Brad, what cologne do you wear? The reason I ask, is that every time you start a thread, it goes to hell. Wondering if the cologne sends of negative pheromones and makes the neighborhood dogs' want to fight? 

Either that or you were born with a target shaped birthmark on your back. :dunno:


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Brad, what cologne do you wear? The reason I ask, is that every time you start a thread, it goes to hell. Wondering if the cologne sends of negative pheromones and makes the neighborhood dogs' want to fight?
> 
> Either that or you were born with a target shaped birthmark on your back. :dunno:



Only one word comes to mind. Of course if I typed it, they'd be on my back again, lol. I'm told that if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right


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## Metals406 (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Only one word comes to mind. Of course if I typed it, they'd be on my back again, lol. I'm told that if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right



:hmm3grin2orange:


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## ChipMonger (Dec 16, 2010)

Metals-

I know your making full wraps...Do you have one for the 372 X-Torq?


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## little possum (Dec 16, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Brad, what cologne do you wear? The reason I ask, is that every time you start a thread, it goes to hell. Wondering if the cologne sends of negative pheromones and makes the neighborhood dogs' want to fight?
> 
> Either that or you were born with a target shaped birthmark on your back. :dunno:



Could be a bit of jealousy?


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

little possum said:


> Could be a bit of jealousy?



Now *you've *gone and done it!!!!! I did not say that. Watch out, here comes the firestorm and name calling.


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## mdavlee (Dec 16, 2010)

Anybody else get ice after snow today? The way it looks they'll be plenty of saw work arou

```

```
nd here for a week or so.,


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm only poking fun here, so don't make me break out the chips. 


But all I'm gonna say is what do I have to be jealous of??


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Half the web site would be there to try and catch it!:chainsawguy:



I hear that's what old Jimmy did with a few of Ed's saws.lol No, no I was just kidding and having some fun.


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## blsnelling (Dec 16, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I hear that's what old Jimmy did with a few of Ed's saws.lol No, no I was just kidding and having some fun.



Andre, you play nice now, you hear me!!!!! We all have to learn somewhere, lol.


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## Blowncrewcab (Dec 16, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Anybody else get ice after snow today? The way it looks they'll be plenty of saw work arou
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Everything in my neighborhood had a 5/16" thick Ice Blanket on it, I was sittin in the house by the fire, I hardly got to see it .


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Andre, you play nice now, you hear me!!!!! We all have to learn somewhere, lol.



What are you saying? I've ported a few saws that probably look a lot like yours inside? never! lol:hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## rattler362 (Dec 16, 2010)

mdavlee said:


> Anybody else get ice after snow today? The way it looks they'll be plenty of saw work arou
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Yes we did but it worse to the west of us.

Mike


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 16, 2010)

little possum said:


> Could be a bit of jealousy?



Oh yeah. . . I'm super jealous over Brad's public floggings! 
(I know you were referring to 'their' jealousy BTW, just making a joke)

My take on what happens to Brad in his threads that start off good. . . 'Let him that is without sin, cast the first stone.'


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 16, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Metals-
> 
> I know your making full wraps...Do you have one for the 372 X-Torq?



Let me know what you find out. . .


----------



## Dan_IN_MN (Dec 16, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Brad, what cologne do you wear? The reason I ask, is that every time you start a thread, it goes to hell. Wondering if the cologne sends of negative pheromones and makes the neighborhood dogs' want to fight?
> 
> Either that or you were born with a target shaped birthmark on your back. :dunno:





blsnelling said:


> Only one word comes to mind. Of course if I typed it, they'd be on my back again, lol. I'm told that if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right



There is always something to shoot at when you're as transparent and honest as many fine people that hang out here on AS! If one hangs in the shadows and waits to pounce........... not much of a target there! 

Shoot, before joining AS I didn't even think about modding a saw......maybe at some point..... The wheels are a turning! LOL

I've always enjoyed reading the en-depth threads on saw building.

I wonder if the "big bang" was caused by someone pushing the envelope on modding an engine? LOL


----------



## little possum (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Now *you've *gone and done it!!!!! I did not say that. Watch out, here comes the firestorm and name calling.



Not real worried about some of these clowns. You are a saw modder, and until some of the others step up and sponsor this fine site, you and TS will be the "modders"

Just saying, as the rules say. You paid the $ to step up. Anybody else has that free range of going through the same steps. But your work is also all across the country and scrutinized by many. But yours and TS are the main ones that get posted up on here for everybody to see.

JMO.
And not trying to start anything


----------



## Tiger Rag (Dec 16, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Now *you've *gone and done it!!!!! I did not say that. Watch out, here comes the firestorm and name calling.



:hmm3grin2orange: lol!


----------



## parrisw (Dec 16, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> I'm only poking fun here, so don't make me break out the chips.
> 
> 
> But all I'm gonna say is what do I have to be jealous of??



Well, its definitely not the size of your p....... ahhh never mind.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

little possum said:


> Not real worried about some of these clowns. You are a saw modder, and until some of the others step up and sponsor this fine site, you and TW will be the "modders"
> 
> Just saying, as the rules say. You paid the $ to step up. Anybody else has that free range of going through the same steps. But your work is also all across the country and scrutinized by many. But yours and TW are the main ones that get posted up on here for everybody to see.
> 
> ...



So he who steps up and pays to sponsor this site some how also by that act is embodied with the "technical" know how and knowledge to build a better saw than all the other modders out there? What are you saying here?

Or are you saying only those who pay dollars to this site have the right to mod saws? I don't get what your message is...so Ill try a few more different flavors on how this can be interpenetrated.

Maybe you are saying spending sponsor money here allows one to forgo spending the time and dollars in R&D to develop a product..yet still can be called an expert in their field? By the act of sponsorship instead the rigors of competition & research?

And therefore spending dollars here allows the marketing of the obtuse vs. having to stand the scrutiny of competition or any other tangible comparison with other builders?

So please spell it out for us...and show this concept in a way that makes it easier for potential customers to spend money on those who would mod for hire simply because they "bought" the rights to that activity by sponsoring this site!

And...I don't care If I start something as this type of attitude needs to be flushed out for all who might spend money on modifications to see. 

I would also observe Brad does a better job of marketing his wares than these supposed friends who tend to bring up concepts such as this...and then Brad gets stuck with this stink not of his doing...he was doing just fine until the monkey brigade decided to help!:monkey:

(Love the jealous theory!..What do you think Brad, Is woodchucker jealous of anyone relative to fast saws?)

A better approach is a page out of Brads book..not claiming to be a race saw builder, simply a hobbyist willing to push the barriers a little and grind where no one has ground before (Sometimes paid for by friends&customers)...and we all benefit by his postings and pictures. Either to see what not to do or to go ahead and start out own hacker specials. So don't poison the well with that pay=expertise concept please.

(My bet is Brad has sold more Dremel tools than saw mods..only its Walmart getting those Dremel bucks!)


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Well, its definitely not the size of your p....... ahhh never mind.



Go ahead and say it. Must have been on your mind. Funny how so many assume all think the way they do to come to conclusions...


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I would also observe Brad does a better job of marketing his wares than these supposed friends who tend to bring up concepts such as this...and then Brad gets stuck with this stink not of his doing...he was doing just fine until the monkey brigade decided to help!:monkey:



So we are monkeys now?? Let me ask you this. Have I ever had any quarrel with you? have I ever said anything this degrading to you? 

I speak my mind completely independent of Brad, I simply call things as I see them. Apparently owning a saw, or knowing Erick Copsey makes one become a D I C K as fast as his saws are.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Go ahead and say it. Must have been on your mind. Funny how so many assume all think the way they do to come to conclusions...



Shut up dude, you didn't get it, it was a joke, same as you. I never directed anything at you, so WTF is your problem.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> So we are monkeys now?? Let me ask you this. Have I ever had any quarrel with you? have I ever said anything this degrading to you?
> 
> I speak my mind completely independent of Brad, I simply call things as I see them. Apparently owning a saw, or knowing Erick Copsey makes one become a D I C K as fast as his saws are.



If you are proposing the dollars spent on sponsorship equals expertise or making "p" comparisons..or start calling people names......yes. I don't know who Erick is. I would ask the same questions of him as well if he charges dollars for mods.

To this point I haven't seen you do that...but..hey there is always a first time! LOL I don't have a quarrel with you to this point..unless you want one.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Shut up dude, you didn't get it, it was a joke, same as you. I never directed anything at you, so WTF is your problem.



Funny how you can dish it...but when called on, its offensive.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> If you are proposing the dollars spent on sponsorship equals expertise or making "p" comparisons..or start calling people names......yes. I don't know who Erick is. I would ask the same questions of him as well if he charges dollars for mods.
> 
> To this point I haven't seen you do that...but..hey there is always a first time! LOL I don't have a quarrel with you to this point..unless you want one.



Do you not read what you type? I'm good friends With the man you're trying to discredit, and you do know who EC is, as he ported Jason's saw. You essentially called me a monkey, that I do take issue with!!


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Funny how you can dish it...but when called on its offensive.



I can take it just fine, just don't know what your beef is with me? So WTF is your problem? Woodchucker knows I was kidding around, you don't see him in here being a prick like yourself.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I can take it just fine, just don't know what your beef is with me? So WTF is your problem? Woodchucker knows I was kidding around, you don't see him in here being a prick like yourself.



Like I said....lol! Doesn't bother me in the least..but obviously your a little thin of skin..


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Do you not read what you type? I'm good friends With the man you're trying to discredit, and you do know who EC is, as he ported Jason's saw. You essentially called me a monkey, that I do take issue with!!



Exactly how am I trying to discredit one of your friends. Please tell me what the premise is, that you think I have articulated, that you don't agree with.

And BTW..I haven't seen woodchuckers new build yet so I have no comment on it. I have seen two 681 builds...one significantly more effective then the other. But I won't get into that because its irrelevant.


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Or are you saying only those who pay dollars to this site have the right to mod saws? I don't get what your message is...so Ill try a few more different flavors on how this can be *interpenetrated.*


Hate to say this, but I don't think your mind is into this discussion either. It may be a good time to hop in bed with the wife and wakeup with a new outlook.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

My my dog you sure edited you original post calling all of Brad's friends dogs. It just slipped out didn't it?


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Like I said....lol! Doesn't bother me in the least..but obviously your a little thin of skin..



No actually, just still trying to understand why your trying to drag me into this?


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> My my dog you sure edited you original post calling all of Brad's friends dogs. It just slipped out didn't it?



?? not that I'm aware of...but you seemed to have slipped out of answering the question which is the heart of this entire debate...so...what is it in my premise that you disagree with?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

Because he's a jerk and it slipped out, no going back now dog.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> No actually, just still trying to understand why your trying to drag me into this?



Think you dragged yourself into this...I don't have a beef with you personally..so I will ask you the same question as Andy..what is it in my premise articulated that you disagree with?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> ?? not that I'm aware of...but you seemed to have slipped out of answering the question which is the heart of this entire debate...so...what is it in my premise that you disagree with?



Keep talking in circles, maybe you find your way out. Good night!


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Because he's a jerk and it slipped out, no going back now dog.



I am comfortable in the role of a jerk if that makes you happy..but can you refute my premise relative to saw building or are you going into the realm of name calling and fictitious accusations?


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> So he who steps up and pays to sponsor this site some how also by that act is embodied with the "technical" know how and knowledge to build a better saw than all the other modders out there? What are you saying here?
> 
> Or are you saying only those who pay dollars to this site have the right to mod saws? I don't get what your message is...so Ill try a few more different flavors on how this can be interpenetrated.
> 
> ...



So why do you have a big problem with Brad? I read this and can only come to that conclusion.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Think you dragged yourself into this...I don't have a beef with you personally..so I will ask you the same question as Andy..what is it in my premise articulated that you disagree with?



The fact you called me a monkey said it all boy! I have nothing else for you ever!


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Keep talking in circles, maybe you find your way out. Good night!



Just asked the question..your the one running from the answer..I posted an opinion and you seem to object but can't give any reason why other than I'm a jerk or some other set of names...still not getting to the heart of the issue.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Think you dragged yourself into this...I don't have a beef with you personally..so I will ask you the same question as Andy..what is it in my premise articulated that you disagree with?



How did I drag myself into this? I made a joke about chucker, that was all, then you decided to be a jerk about it. Carry on, keep making yourself look bad.


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

Sorry to interrupt, but has anyone seen Calvin?


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Go ahead and say it. Must have been on your mind. Funny how so many assume all think the way they do to come to conclusions...



Ok, I'll say it. The P word, was supposed to be penis, something that you seem to lack.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> The fact you called me a monkey said it all boy! I have nothing else for you ever!




Yet another one running from the articulation of an objection of my premises relative to saw building...and I ask all out there who would spend money...ask the same questions of those who would take your money and do work to your saws...if all you get is reactions such as these....lol how does that in anyway translate into good work?

Like I said before, Brad does a much better job of marketing than some of these folks who are trying in some way to defend.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

bcorradi said:


> Sorry to interrupt, but has anyone seen Calvin?



No, have you? Has he posted since he said what he said?


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Yet another one running from the articulation of an objection of my premises relative to saw building...and I ask all out there who would spend money...ask the same questions of those who would take your money and do work to your saws...if all you get is reactions such as there....lol how does that in anyway translate into good work?
> 
> Like I said before, Brad does a much better job of marketing than some of these folks who are trying in some way to defend.



How many people on here are actively complaining about Brads work? If the people he does work for are happy, then well, that's all that matters.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ok, I'll say it. The P word, was supposed to be penis, something that you seem to lack.



And there is is..the cumulation of the technical argument this user has relative to my premise that saw builders need to either do the R&D and have tangible evidence before selling a service or take the risk away from the customer with insurance that if things don't go well their saw will be replaced or some such arraignment.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> How many people on here are actively complaining about Brads work? If the people he does work for are happy, then well, that's all that matters.



And that's Brads point and why I have been saying he does a better job marketing his services than those focused on Peni (Plural) ( I personally would want the best possible build for my hard earned dollars and therefor would like to see comparisons to see which builder suits my type of saw and work the best...you wouldn't want to know? I plan to pay attention to those who win at the races and have the best builds at the GTG's I frequent..that's tangible..just remember lemmings are happy too!)


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> No, have you? Has he posted since he said what he said?


Not to my knowledge, but I guess he was on tonight. I look forward to his posts tommorrow


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> And there is is...



Are you drinking? if so I'll give you a bit of a break, but what you've said and how you said it was completely uncalled for. I really could care less what you think about Brad's porting for money, but personally attacking others you don't even know, like you did was uncalled for.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> And there is is..the cumulation of the technical argument this user has relative to my premise that saw builders need to either do the R&D and have tangible evidence before selling a service or take the risk away from the customer with insurance that if things don't go well their saw will be replaced or some such arraignment.



Since when did you start making the rules? Its a free country, nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. 

As far as I know, whenever Brad has done wrong or made a mistake he has made it right.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> So he who steps up and pays to sponsor this site some how also by that act is embodied with the "technical" know how and knowledge to build a better saw than all the other modders out there? What are you saying here?
> 
> Or are you saying only those who pay dollars to this site have the right to mod saws? I don't get what your message is...so Ill try a few more different flavors on how this can be interpenetrated.
> 
> ...


*
Last edited by weimedog; Today at 10:32 PM. *

Hmmm, wonder what the edit was for?


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

It had something to do with me + Nik + Mike = :monkey:


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> So why do you have a big problem with Brad? I read this and can only come to that conclusion.



Well read it again along with the person who posted the concept I objected to. Brad didn't even cross my mind relative to the pay=knowledge concept I objected to..so lets read the last few lines again together..lol!



parrisw said:


> I would also observe Brad does a better job of marketing his wares than these supposed friends who tend to bring up concepts such as this...and then Brad gets stuck with this stink not of his doing...he was doing just fine until the monkey brigade decided to help!
> 
> (Love the jealous theory!..What do you think Brad, Is woodchucker jealous of anyone relative to fast saws?)
> 
> ...



Almost sounds like an endorsement to me....and if doesn't to you..please explain why?


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Well read it again along with the person who posted the concept I objected to. Brad didn't even cross my mind relative to the pay=knowledge concept I objected to..so lets read the last few lines again together..lol!
> 
> 
> 
> Almost sounds like an endorsement to me....and if doesn't to you..please explain why?



Ok, can you look back at your last post and edit it please, you have my name down quoted on your post. I don't want my name down there and people thinking I wrote that.

Thank you.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> *
> Last edited by weimedog; Today at 10:32 PM. *
> 
> Hmmm, wonder what the edit was for?



Spelling issues..but still explain what your objection is to my premise? You both would like to deflect vs. deal with any issues. I'm a jerk..very comfortable with you thinking that...but you haven't articulated any reason to object to any of the arguments and premises I've made. period. All who would buy services should see this as the type of analysis these folks would have you do when choosing a builder.

The best argument you have is I'm a jerk or i edited my posting? thats all you have?


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> Ok, can you look back at your last post and edit it please, you have my name down quoted on your post. I don't want my name down there and people thinking I wrote that.
> 
> Thank you.



I pulled that post from your post...you can still explain what it is you object to from a technical or objective point of view....can't you?

(And if I edit that post..you can again imply its for some nefarious reasons!! i LOVE THIS CRAP! And this is what you folks expect will attract business to your friend! I certainly hope no one attaches any of your commentary to his work!)


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Spelling issues..but still explain what your objection is to my premise? You both would like to deflect vs. deal with any issues. I'm a jerk..very comfortable with you thinking that...but you haven't articulated any reason to object to any of the arguments and premises I've made. period. All who would buy services should see this as the type of analysis these folks would have you do when choosing a builder.
> 
> The best argument you have is I'm a jerk or i edited my posting? thats all you have?



Read my last post please. You screwed up the quote and have my name on your post. Take it off please. I don't want my name on your post.


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I pulled that post from your post...you can still explain what it is you object to from a technical or objective point of view....can't you?



It was your post though??? Somehow you messed it up, now I don't want people reading it and thinking I wrote it. Take my name off it please. Go look at it you'll see.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Spelling issues..but still explain what your objection is to my premise? You both would like to deflect vs. deal with any issues. I'm a jerk..very comfortable with you thinking that...but you haven't articulated any reason to object to any of the arguments and premises I've made. period. All who would buy services should see this as the type of analysis these folks would have you do when choosing a builder.
> 
> The best argument you have is I'm a jerk or i edited my posting? thats all you have?



Spelling issues? really? OK how about this you admit to calling all Brad's friends monkeys than editing your post. When you do that, I'll give you the best I can. Deal?


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

opcorn:

:rockn:


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

And to this point...neither P-riss or A-Shine has in any way found a way to address the premise I posted that got them all wound up...and that is...before you spend your dollars on a saw builder, do your homework. The better builders have done the research and development and aren't afraid to test their work against others in the form of racing. Sooner or later like all other motor sports, this one will have builders who do the R&D on their own dime, prove their work in competitive arena's and like the Pro Circuits of the world, will have a definable product to sell for the dollars asked. Until then..it's all hear say and a gamble. As long as all are doing this eye's open..all is good.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Spelling issues? really? OK how about this you admit to calling all Brad's friends monkeys than editing your post. When you do that, I'll give you the best I can. Deal?



I honestly don't care anything about you or your opinions. Just using your posts to bounce the premise to the rest who read. until you actually address the opinion..your just another reason to repeat it...so since you have absolutely nothing that I want...we can't have any deal! LOL

(Oh by the way..if this is all you have to address the issue of saw builders credentials & marketing credibility..you are along the lines of a Monkey!)


----------



## tundraotto (Dec 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Brad, what cologne do you wear? The reason I ask, is that every time you start a thread, it goes to hell. Wondering if the cologne sends of negative pheromones and makes the neighborhood dogs' want to fight?
> 
> Either that or you were born with a target shaped birthmark on your back. :dunno:



sure sounds like a "jealousy" cologne...

a man provides a service and has an outstanding reputation (Snelling)....and people want to start busting his balls about it?! I mean come on!?

His put out the vids etc... if YOU dont like it - dont send your saw to him! Seems like a lot of people trust him to do what he does - a woods saw mod!


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)




----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

tundraotto said:


> sure sounds like a "jealousy" cologne...
> 
> a man provides a service and has an outstanding reputation (Snelling)....and people want to start busting his balls about it?! I mean come on!?
> 
> His put out the vids etc... if YOU dont like it - dont send your saw to him! Seems like a lot of people trust him to do what he does - a woods saw mod!



And that's all he claims and why he will have as many customers as he can handle....because that's all they expect.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I honestly don't care anything about you or your opinions. Just using your posts to bounce the premise to the rest who read. until you actually address the opinion..your just another reason to repeat it...so since you have absolutely nothing that I want...we can't have any deal! LOL



Than why did you ask so many times? You've looked like and have acted like a fool in this thread. I gave you a compromise and you've refused, and in doing so proves what you said, and you regret it. Life goes on, take care.


----------



## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


>



I can't stop laughing. Man I'm glad I don't have work tomorrow/today.


----------



## tundraotto (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> And that's all he claims and why he will have as many customers as he can handle....because that's all they expect.



so whats the problem? everyones happy - why are you the one queefing about it?


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> Than why did you ask so many times? You've looked like and have acted like a fool in this thread. I gave you a compromise and you've refused, and in doing so proves what you said, and you regret it. Life goes on, take care.



And you still haven't addressed the premise...why? Because you know I'm right? If not then how is what I articulated way way back when you got your self all twisted up out of sync with your philosophy of choosing how to spend your dollars? You are the ones who tried to pull the subject into all kinds of random directions...never once actually refuting what I said....a famous man once said a sucker is born every minute!


----------



## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> And you still haven't addressed the premise...why? Because you know I'm right? If not then how is what I articulated way way back when you got your self all twisted up out of sync with your philosophy of choosing how to spend your dollars? You are the ones who tried to pull the subject into all kinds of random directions...never once actually refuting what I said....a famous man once said a sucker is born every minute!



I'd like to know why you're so concerned about how other people whom you don't even know spend their money.


----------



## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

What are the premises again...I'm still confused?


----------



## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)




----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

tundraotto said:


> so whats the problem? everyones happy - why are you the one queefing about it?



This is an interesting delima actually and I'm glad you asked this question! I don't have a beef with any of those things people are happy about..(people are happy buying cigarette's!)...as long as those spending their dollars understand the nature of the risk and the nature of the service they are purchasing! My desire is to advance the standards of performance modifications into those adopted by almost every other motorsport on the planet so when a customer decides to spend his dollars, there are tangible ways for him to choose one builder over another. Also an expectation level of what they will get for their dollars that matches the product infact delivered. If I buy a pipe from FMF for my CR450F..I know aprox. what that will do to the powerband of that motorcycle. There are all kinds of charts and tests from independent sources to verify the claims of FMF and those like them & also allow comparisons of the different products..obviously the market and the value of these mods don't justify that here..yet! So more of the proof and/ or insurance needs to fall on the builder. What we have here is simply hear say....and as you said everyone seems to be happy with that! 

Since this isn't a mature business folks like Brad depend on customers to both risk their money and their equipment on modifications that may or may not be improvements for them over a period of time. This thread is documentation of that and how Brad dealt with essentially a customer funded R&D project. I have no issue as these two willingly worked this deal together. I would caution others by asking how do they know their saw will respond to what gains they have in mind after ONE saw build and all the hear say relative to that saw? Because there is no way to truely know what you will get in a deal such as this 372XT...and all the smoke and BS we just waded thru is all the info we get relative to these builds and customers. Basically the guist of these last few pages is to try and dilute my argument and bash any who question the validity of these "pitch your money into the void" approaches to buying saw mods!..We need to do better. This thread is also documentation on how folks use this forum to attempt to use complete BS to try and bluster & intimidate away true analysis of these subjective situations...I have to ask, what's in it for these guys?

This isn't a Brad bashing deal to me at all. Its a question to all here who would play in this random mod game for entertainment and fun...and ask for someones saw AND their money to do so! Nothing wrong if all those in the barrel understand their risk....and willingly take the plunge!

The second part of my premise is without the large amounts of R&D time...racing is in fact a cheap way to compare! So define a "woods port" class and have at it! Would be fun for all involved and the competition would give tangible numbers to the builders concepts and give customers/fans data that can help guide their purchases and therefore provide incentives for builders to do..research! (U know win on Sunday, sell on Monday approach) That's it. So what do YOU think is bothering those who have attempted to filibuster this issue and premise away? The most technical arguments so far are..that I'm a jerk..and I edited my posts...and I call them monkeys!!! Is that enough to convince you NOT to do some homework before spending your hard earned cash AND the cash invested in your saw? Certainly isn't for me! But that all they have as rebuttals.


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> I'd like to know why you're so concerned about how other people whom you don't even know spend their money.



I'm more concerned about people who claim to be expert in these matters influencing those who aren't to spend their money. The concept of fraud comes to mind. If you haven't noticed, money is hard to come by and therefore should be treated with respect..especially when its not yours.


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## MCW (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> I'm more concerned about people who claim to be expert in these matters influencing those who aren't to spend their money. The concept of fraud comes to mind. If you haven't noticed, money is hard to come by and therefore should be treated with respect..especially when its not yours.



I had a whole line up of your posts to quote but in the end have only attached one.
Let's be frank, you're having a crack at Brad. The above post pretty well proves that. You've been beating around the bush for many pages now, using Oxford Dictionary type lingo in your posts to try and worm your way around the fact that you are indeed having a crack at Brad. There were a few guys earlier who called you out that at the time I thought may have been a bit premature. The further I've read the more they have been proven correct.

You've brought up R&D in motorsport. How the hell does that relate to a wood's ported work saw?

You've brought up race saws. How the hell does that relate to wood's ported saws? Are race saws suited to sustained use? No...

R&D in race saws? Hah hah. Classic. I think you need to study up on Research and Development as you have no idea what that term means. I've worked in Research and Development and if you think that playing with saws and making them faster is R&D you are wrong. It's trial and error and nothing more. Research and Development is about 500 steps above that and apart from the saw manufacturers themselves nobody here, or in the race saw world, can claim they are involved in any R&D programs. The term R&D is quite often used by the little guys to sound like big players. All I see is varying levels of trial and error.

Unlike many other saw modders and builders, Brad has been quite honest whenever he has made an error or a modification hasn't had the desired results.
I've had a number of saws modded by Brad with no complaints. He has been excellent to deal with, I haven't had any issues at all with his work, the saws have been reliable even under sustained felling use, and he has had in his bank account 1000's of my hard earned dollars without so much as trying to gouge one more cent out of me. Unlike many others here I have had stock saws to use alongside Brad's modded saws and there is a definate, tangible difference. There are other good modders for sure, but for those that are happy with Brad's work then why would they change?

You mentioned in the above quoted post "influencing" and "fraud". Give us credit mate, you're a tool and nothing more. You are alluding to the fact that any of Brad's customers have been ripped off (fraud) and have been "influenced" into getting their saws modded by him (so we're all stupid?).
I'll put all your posts into one smallish paragraph so it's a lot easier for others to understand where you're coming from...

Ahem...

Ready?

"Brad is using his AS sponsorship as a subconcious business tool to lure the unsuspecting saw owner into getting his/her saw modified. He does not have any sanctioned Research and Development backing so the saws he modifies will not be as reliable or perform as well as a saw produced by a government sanctioned, Research and Development chainsaw modification program. Brad should not be trusted with the customer's money as the customer is obviously too stupid to know what he/she wants. Oh, and Brad is also possibly fraudulent, because somebody with a lot of obvious credibilty said so (Sorry Brad but you're off to the big house by the looks of it - don't drop the soap but take your Dremel if at all possible - I may want you to be influencing me with your fraudulence again soon because you sucked so much at building my last saws)".


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## little possum (Dec 17, 2010)

parrisw said:


> How many people on here are actively complaining about Brads work? If the people he does work for are happy, then well, that's all that matters.





weimedog said:


> And that's all he claims and why he will have as many customers as he can handle....because that's all they expect.


He does a woods port mostly. And as long as him and Tree Sling'r are the sponsors, they will continue to get the business. 
Unless you are with the "in crowd" you are out of the loop of others that port saws, thats all I was trying to say.

And I know that if Brad makes a error he would try to fix it or make it right, I know he was working on a saw I have now and had to make things right, but he wasnt afraid to fix the innitial problem in the get go.

Big difference in a woods port and a race saw. End of story. 

I dont see the problem, or issue in which everybody has to ramble on about him modding saws. The woods port has been around for a long time, and helps production fallers get more wood on the ground.


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh. My. God. :jawdrop:


I don't plan on posting much in here after this, but for the record, Eric had nothing to do with this. Weimedog barely has any clue who Eric even is, and vise versa. I'm not jumping up looking for an argument while trying to defend, I just figured I'd shed some light on the Eric presumption. 

And there's the 681 talk again....

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like there's some serious angst regarding that saw. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but it just kinda seems that way. 

C'mon guys! Where's the chips?!


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

MCW said:


> "Brad is using his AS sponsorship as a subconcious business tool to lure the unsuspecting saw owner into getting his/her saw modified. He does not have any sanctioned Research and Development backing so the saws he modifies will not be as reliable or perform as well as a saw produced by a government sanctioned, Research and Development chainsaw modification program. Brad should not be trusted with the customer's money as the customer is obviously too stupid to know what he/she wants. Oh, and Brad is also possibly fraudulent, because somebody with a lot of obvious credibilty said so (Sorry Brad but you're off to the big house by the looks of it - don't drop the soap but take your Dremel if at all possible - I may want you to be influencing me with your fraudulence again soon because you sucked so much at building my last saws)".



See I really don't have as much problem with Brad as you would like me to have simply because he lays everything out for all to see and has basically sold exactly what he shows online. And everyone knows the gamble. Actually it appears to me Brad started by sharing his hobby and as a result is growing as a builder. The result is getting support from a group of folks who are a part of his growth partly because they fund his efforts. Rather than rephrase and put thoughts into my premise, just read and take it for face value. Since my posting might hit close to the concept folks here have a vested interest in, this gets those in the arena a little..nervous. So after a rephrasing attempt..my points are still the same. And yes...when attacked by the other so called "experts' I will get more pointed in my discussion. Don't add those returns to these attacks specifically to the discussion in general as it pertains to Brad..they are separate. And why I said several times Brad does a better job of marketing than these folks who are coming to his supposed aid.

So what exactly is your difference with my premise again..?


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

little possum said:


> He does a woods port mostly. And as long as him and Tree Sling'r are the sponsors, they will continue to get the business.
> Unless you are with the "in crowd" you are out of the loop of others that port saws, thats all I was trying to say.
> 
> And I know that if Brad makes a error he would try to fix it or make it right, I know he was working on a saw I have now and had to make things right, but he wasnt afraid to fix the innitial problem in the get go.
> ...



So I guess you and I are actually in agreement on that derivative discussion...as I see that as well. But that is a discussion for another post! And would add Brad has educated many with postings and pictures of exactly what he does where some would never do that for fear of giving some special secrets away that they consider their competitive "edge". So those postings are his "documentation" of services rendered. Posts such as this are exactly about what Brad does.


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## MCW (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> See I really don't have as much problem with Brad as you would like me to have simply because he lays everything out for all to see and has basically sold exactly what he shows online. Actually it appears to me Brad started by sharing his hobby and as a result is growing as a builder. The result is getting support from a group of folks who are a part of his growth partly because they fund his efforts. Rather than rephrase and put thoughts into my premise, just read and take it for face value. Since my posting might hit close to the concept folks here have a vested interest in, this gets those in the arena a little..nervous. So after a rephrasing attempt..my points are still the same. And yes...when attacked by the other so called "experts' I will get more pointed in my discussion. Don't add those returns specifically to the discussion as it pertains to Brad..they are separate. And why I said several times Brad does a better job of marketing than these folks who are coming to his supposed aid.



You seem to be saying that Brad is doing a good job of marketing as if it's a concious effort.
Have you ever thought that Brad is starting threads on saw modification because he enjoys it and likes to share his information?
Put it this way, I didn't start any of my tree felling threads to increase my tree felling business...
When you write "vested interest" it sounds like there is some sort of conspiracy going on instead of just a heap of happy customers looking after a good guy who has in turn looked after them.


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## 8433jeff (Dec 17, 2010)

Needs to be more chips under some peoples saws. Brads shown pictures, videos, and some others have also, including the Chucker. Don't see any from the dog guy, but he wants to tell people how to spend their money. I ain't got none to spend, so his advice is useless to me, and I haven't seen yet where it would be to anyone else. If I did have, I don't need a clown (I really think hes funny) to tell me how to spend it. Find the saw dyno guy and set something up, and people will flock I'm sure. If you need capital to get going, talk with Calvin, hes into this type of money making scheme. (BTW I haven't heard from him). As to win on Sunday, whens the last time someone went to the summer nats and then brought home a Ford with a 426 Chrysler Hemi in it, or expected it to get them to church in an under four second pass?


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

MCW said:


> You've brought up R&D in motorsport. How the hell does that relate to a wood's ported work saw?
> 
> You've brought up race saws. How the hell does that relate to wood's ported saws? Are race saws suited to sustained use? No...



Simply racing improves the breed and is a tangible way for those who want to spend money to choose among builders. AND usually those who participate in those more "extreme" activities are proud to compare with others and it drives them to grow in their craft to..win races. Or endurance tests, what ever the game may be. Something that a place like this can define...the classes to compare works saws.

I guess you are saying that woods porting as a concept means a more random approach to spending some one's money is acceptable? Because using the cover of woods porting means that there is this implied gray area that all understand they are buying into? I would argue "woods" porting is even more important than race porting as many who are spending their money actually are using the results to earn a living! Or is their a difference in terminology where "woods porting" means "play porting" and there needs to be another term for defining modifications for pro's work saws....what would that be?

Why isn't an analogy such used as to describe Cam's for trucks..mid range cams, low range cams, etc that type of description applicable here? Why wouldn't all of you here who seem to object to these posts relative to the quantifying of a product take the approach of defining things that are measurable as ways to define these types of services? How can it be "ok" to invest the cost of a pro level saw plus time and materials to mod...over $1000 in many cases..on a totally random product concept? Maybe with proceeds from these builds can fund a dynamometer for the saw builders so there can be a more measured approach..why would you object to asking those who would risk 4 digit sums to come up with ways to quantify their product? Get a dyno reading of the before and after on a particular build...sell that gain as a repeatable product, then give dyno reports with the saws built as a tangible definition of the results..like a gun builder giving a target with a 5 shot grouping....I was hoping for and actually expected the discussion to turn more in that direction than the way it is at this point.


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

8433jeff said:


> Needs to be more chips under some peoples saws. Brads shown pictures, videos, and some others have also, including the Chucker. Don't see any from the dog guy, but he wants to tell people how to spend their money. I ain't got none to spend, so his advice is useless to me, and I haven't seen yet where it would be to anyone else. If I did have, I don't need a clown (I really think hes funny) to tell me how to spend it. Find the saw dyno guy and set something up, and people will flock I'm sure. If you need capital to get going, talk with Calvin, hes into this type of money making scheme. (BTW I haven't heard from him). As to win on Sunday, whens the last time someone went to the summer nats and then brought home a Ford with a 426 Chrysler Hemi in it, or expected it to get them to church in an under four second pass?



Point is I'm not telling or selling anything! I'm asking for tangible things to compare so I can decide where to spend money. Consider me as a customer asking a very pointed question. WHY do I spend money in your or any other saw builders direction?


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

MCW said:


> You seem to be saying that Brad is doing a good job of marketing as if it's a concious effort.
> Have you ever thought that Brad is starting threads on saw modification because he enjoys it and likes to share his information?
> Put it this way, I didn't start any of my tree felling threads to increase my tree felling business...
> When you write "vested interest" it sounds like there is some sort of conspiracy going on instead of just a heap of happy customers looking after a good guy who has in turn looked after them.



Brad does his thing and posts for all to see. I have no issue with that. Felling a tree is...lol VERY tangible! You say the tree is going down...and when its down you can say it...DOWN! Also you aren't posting here to derive business as I doubt a large percentage of your customers hang out here. Brad is a bit unique as this is a blend of hobby and business. But as I've said over and over before we all see that and either choose to participate or not, there is no problem as he literally hides nothing so I have no beef with that in any way. Actually I suspect he has spurred many to go places they never would have but for the pictures and postings he has done. I see Brad as an asset, not a liability to our community in any way. Having said that, here will no doubt be those who follow Brad in these endeavors with economic intent. I rather would like to see us creatively start to define tangible ways to measure the results of our "saw modification" hobby..so that if & when it turns into a business...the product is something a potential customer can quantify before spending dollars. So by building the precedent and maybe procedures to measure gains (or losses) now, we help those in the future who would dabble in this for what ever reason. Actually I was hoping Brad could lead the way in as creative a way as he has lead the way into modifying Strato saws! AND if you want to go into my original intent..I love that Brad took this saw and built it into something interesting as I remember all the "experts" whining about how the Strato saws are the end of saw modification as either a hobby or a business. Brad has effectively proved that is not true. And yet again my intent is to drive this discussion towards finding tangible ways to define the results of these projects...and to ask those who want to make a business to do their R&D on their own dime (Brad's has effectively done that as he has a partner..and they collectively funded this project...and this posting is a report of the results. All good stuff...and I have to add..a very tangible definition of what he does therefore no one enters into this with Brad without all kinds of prior information to pick over. About as open as it gets. Not all will do this is my guess) before selling it as a product. What would your objection be to that as a concept? Brad has done the honest thing in my mind by posting and reporting all that has happened. This is a great place to flush out what a product definition would look like..


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## mweba (Dec 17, 2010)

What the :censored: happened here? 
This is the reason I find myself reading less and less on this site. Great people, great info then a train wreck.

Start a new thread about "fraud".


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

mweba said:


> What the :censored: happened here?
> This is the reason I find myself reading less and less on this site. Great people, great info then a train wreck.
> 
> Start a new thread about "fraud".



No fraud here. Only fraud I have seen is relative to ebay...I personally would rather not defend against personal attack which twists the responses away from my intent and makes things personal and let this post go back to a report on a creative build. And maybe if we were to start another thread on how to find ways to measure in a repeatable way saw modifications. Others may have an agenda or beef with some saw builder or another...I really don't. Just want to..yet again, as i have said multiple times in multiple ways,...figure out ways to define a standard methodology in defining and quantifying a product concept in a way potential customers can understand what they are getting for their money. That's it. No more no less. So I will not egg this on any more either and hope pictures and reports follow relative to Strato builds.


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## indiansprings (Dec 17, 2010)

If a person is doing saw modding as a business, not a hobbyist there would be no greater marketing tool and credibility builder than using a dyno to post before mod data and then after mod data. It would give irrefutable proof as to the gains that can be made by porting. It would eliminate the subjective testing such as timed cuts, etc. 

Whomever is doing the porting (I could care less who the builder is) just has the personal decision if it makes business sense on whether or not that the expense if justified. I would think if you were going to do it as a business that it would not only show people that the results are tangible that they are also repeatable, that if you do X saw and it shows a gain of X hp, that you could do another saw of the same make and model and have results that are extremely close to the first one.

It's just a hard call to decide if it would amoritize out on the volume of saws that a builder does. I would would pay 30 -50 more dollars for a before and 
after dyno test. You have to think of it being a long term investment.
If a person mods 100 saws a year it would pay off very quickly, even 50 saws a year would show a return on the investment within a reasonable amount of time.

If doing it as a business it would be a real marketing tool, when a new model comes out that looks like it will be popular like the new Husky 562 to buy one the minute it hits the market and show the before and after gains, it would prolly drum up alot of business for that particular model. It's not like you would be out any money as if there is any gains at all their would be a buyer.

The irrefutable validation of port work through dyno testing would be worth the money spent in my point of view if one is doing it as a business and is planning on staying in the business for a few years, if I'm just grinding for myself or a few buddies then it's a whole different story. It damn sure would eliminate a lot of headaches as a builder.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

What a bunch of pathetic whining and moaning. Weimedog, you need to get one thing straight, because I keep reading it again and again. *I don't ever post anything for marketing purposes!* This is a hobby, I'm an extravert, and I love to share my work with other crazy saw nuts. Plain and simple. The only reason I got into porting other peoples saws, is because the people kept asking for it. And for another thing, I don't need this business. All it does is support my hobby, something I don't need. Oh, and you hoped I would get creative and start this R&D you speak of? Do you have any clue what you're saying? Have you seen the attacks I've received for what little testing I've tried to do? It was a bismal failure. Repeatable testing takes more than I'm willing to invest. You have no idea how much time was involved in generating that flawed data! I'm not even remotely interested in going farther with that. Matter of fact, you'll see less rather than more. And Woodchucker, I'm not suggesting you're jealous of me. You have no reason to be. But if you go back and read your post, reading it as from the outside looking in, it simiply reads as nothing but suggesting that this saw is not what it's claimed to be.

Weimedog, I will not get into a childish battle with you here. I've stated some facts above to answer some of your erroneous claims, and that's all I intend to do. If you want to see R&D in chainsaw developement, go start a company and do it yourself. I will not be doing that. This is a hobby, and that would be too much work that wouldn't be fun. I'd rather quit porting anyone elses saws and simply enjoy them.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

indiansprings said:


> If a person is doing saw modding as a business, not a hobbyist there would be no greater marketing tool and credibility builder than using a dyno to post before mod data and then after mod data. It would give irrefutable proof as to the gains that can be made by porting. It would eliminate the subjective testing such as timed cuts, etc.
> 
> Whomever is doing the porting (I could care less who the builder is) just has the personal decision if it makes business sense on whether or not that the expense if justified. I would think if you were going to do it as a business that it would not only show people that the results are tangible that they are also repeatable, that if you do X saw and it shows a gain of X hp, that you could do another saw of the same make and model and have results that are extremely close to the first one.
> 
> ...



I agree entirely with you. But, like I mentioned in my post before, I'm not in the least bit interested in going that far. Matter of fact, I don't even want the added business. I do more than I want to now.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

mweba said:


> What the :censored: happened here?
> This is the reason I find myself reading less and less on this site. Great people, great info then a train wreck.



And that's so unfortunate. If just a handful of people were "given a little guidance" by the powers that be, this place could be 1000% more amiable. Until then we all just have to live with it.


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> What a bunch of pathetic whining and moaning. Weimedog, you need to get one thing straight, because I keep reading it again and again. *I don't ever post anything for marketing purposes!* This is a hobby, I'm an extravert, and I love to share my work with other crazy saw nuts. Plain and simple. The only reason I got into porting other peoples saws, is because the people kept asking for it. And for another thing, I don't need this business. All it does is support my hobby, something I don't need. Oh, and you hoped I would get creative and start this R&D you speak of? Do you have any clue what you're saying? Have you seen the attacks I've received for what little testing I've tried to do? It was a bismal failure. Repeatable testing takes more than I'm willing to invest. You have no idea how much time was involved in generating that flawed data! I'm not even remotely interested in going farther with that. Matter of fact, you'll see less rather than more. And Woodchucker, I'm not suggesting you're jealous of me. You have no reason to be. But if you go back and read your post, reading it as from the outside looking in, it simiply reads as nothing but suggesting that this saw is not what it's claimed to be.
> 
> Weimedog, I will not get into a childish battle with you here. I've stated some facts above to answer some of your erroneous claims, and that's all I intend to do. If you want to see R&D in chainsaw developement, go start a company and do it yourself. I will not be doing that. This is a hobby, and that would be too much work that wouldn't be fun. I'd rather quit porting anyone elses saws and simply enjoy them.



Well guys there you have it. I couldn't have said it any better myself.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> This is an interesting delima actually and I'm glad you asked this question! I don't have a beef with any of those things people are happy about..(people are happy buying cigarette's!)...as long as those spending their dollars understand the nature of the risk and the nature of the service they are purchasing! My desire is to advance the standards of performance modifications into those adopted by almost every other motorsport on the planet so when a customer decides to spend his dollars, there are tangible ways for him to choose one builder over another. Also an expectation level of what they will get for their dollars that matches the product infact delivered. If I buy a pipe from FMF for my CR450F..I know aprox. what that will do to the powerband of that motorcycle. There are all kinds of charts and tests from independent sources to verify the claims of FMF and those like them & also allow comparisons of the different products..obviously the market and the value of these mods don't justify that here..yet! So more of the proof and/ or insurance needs to fall on the builder. What we have here is simply hear say....and as you said everyone seems to be happy with that!
> 
> Since this isn't a mature business folks like Brad depend on customers to both risk their money and their equipment on modifications that may or may not be improvements for them over a period of time. This thread is documentation of that and how Brad dealt with essentially a customer funded R&D project. I have no issue as these two willingly worked this deal together. I would caution others by asking how do they know their saw will respond to what gains they have in mind after ONE saw build and all the hear say relative to that saw? Because there is no way to truely know what you will get in a deal such as this 372XT...and all the smoke and BS we just waded thru is all the info we get relative to these builds and customers. Basically the guist of these last few pages is to try and dilute my argument and bash any who question the validity of these "pitch your money into the void" approaches to buying saw mods!..We need to do better. This thread is also documentation on how folks use this forum to attempt to use complete BS to try and bluster & intimidate away true analysis of these subjective situations...I have to ask, what's in it for these guys?
> 
> ...




Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.



Did I conveniently fail to tell you that I had not ported a X-TORQ before? Did you know that the saw would perform, or that I would beat on it until it did? Have you run other saws of mine and can verify that they are substantially stronger than stock? Do you feel that your money would be better spent if I invested thousands of dollars in testing equipment, quit my day job that pays real money, and charged you double for the mods?


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> Lets get something clear right now...I asked Brad if he would mod the saw for me. Brad did NOT approach me asking for a guinea pig. I know the risks associated with something like this, and i accept them fully.



And I don't have any problem with this arraignment..a partnership to develop a Strato saw...and fits into exactly what I have said about Brads business. Mutual risk. Eyes open. And I have repeated saying this several times. So do you have a problem with the concept of defining tangible ways to define modification products? You have invested in R&D and are happy with the results..how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?



He already did that. It's been posted more than once now. Would you like for me to quote it for you again? Or do you want him to spend thousands of dollars and go buy a dyno and shut you up, money that you're obviously not willing to spend.


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## ChipMonger (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Did I conveniently fail to tell you that I had not ported a X-TORQ before? *NO* Did you know that the saw would perform, or that I would beat on it until it did?*I knew i would get a saw that runs and performs ABOVE stock. Im happy with that!* Have you run other saws of mine and can verify that they are substantially stronger than stock?*Absolutely* Do you feel that your money would be better spent if I invested thousands of dollars in testing equipment, quit my day job that pays real money, and charged you double for the mods?*NO*



For all i know im the first to have a 372XT ported etc. I believe that as time goes on things will be learned about the saw and further performance will be able to be achieved. Brad has done a stellar job, and i have a hell of a work saw as far as im concerned.


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## 8433jeff (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Am I don't have any problem with this arraignment..a partnership to develop a Strato saw...and fits into exactly what I have said about Brads business. Mutual risk. Eyes open. And I have repeated saying this several times. So do you have a problem with the concept of defining tangible ways to define modification products? You have invested in R&D and are happy with the results..how would you define in a real and tangible way what you got for your money to another pro?



I'd let them run the saw. Nobody has a problem with the concept, nobody has the money either. Saw dynos are pretty rare, 3 manufacturers I know have them, and if we were in Europe they wouldn't me or you near them. You figure it out, then come and post your results. And then I'll complain that your dyno is slighted against a certain saw. Its easy to complain, you have certainly proved that.


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> He already did that. It's been posted more than once now. Would you like for me to quote it for you again? Or do you want him to spend thousands of dollars and go buy a dyno and shut you up, money that you're obviously not willing to spend.



Yes please quote the gains again. And please keep repeating what you did two or three posts ago about your opinion on rigorous testing and the quantification of modification services. There certainly is truth in advertising with you Brad. no doubt about that!


----------



## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

8433jeff said:


> I'd let them run the saw. Nobody has a problem with the concept, nobody has the money either. Saw dynos are pretty rare, 3 manufacturers I know have them, and if we were in Europe they wouldn't me or you near them. You figure it out, then come and post your results. And then I'll complain that your dyno is slighted against a certain saw. Its easy to complain, you have certainly proved that.



yea I have to agree..but at least the discussion on how to measure is on! Love the last sentence! So true.. I remember a motorcycle tuner claiming x hp and another making the point the only true comparison is on the SAME dyno and the formers dyno was a POS! I dealt with that working for a motorcycle company a few years back..you are so right!


----------



## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> Yes please quote the gains again. And please keep repeating what you did two or three posts ago about your opinion on rigorous testing and the quantification of modification services. There certainly is truth in advertising with you Brad. no doubt about that!



Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar? 

No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw. 

How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor my customers need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

ChipMonger said:


> For all i know im the first to have a 372XT ported etc. I believe that as time goes on things will be learned about the saw and further performance will be able to be achieved. Brad has done a stellar job, and i have a hell of a work saw as far as im concerned.



And we all benefit from your investment...like I have said so many times I don't have a problem with your arrangement.

I do wonder what dealers and those who have big investments in the saw business feel about repair/modifications types when they have to deal with things like warranty's and product liability and have to spend all kinds of money on insurance and those who claim its a hobby don't! Not trying to start anything more..just crossed my mind as you challenged me relative to starting a business...I have been a business owner and had to purchase all the legal protections etc....very familiar with that game.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> And we all benefit from your investment...like I have said so many times I don't have a problem with your arraingement.



You have no problem with this arrangement, yet you have used it as the premise to build your entire arguement on? Wow!


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## THALL10326 (Dec 17, 2010)

*Good reading is this thread*

Man this thread is a dosey. I've been reading it and must say its very revealing. What really amazes me is the openness about it. Who in hell in their right mind puts up information like this thread that anyone from the 
EPA could sit at their desk, read, copy and then pay a visit to the modder that posted it all and slap him with a $35,000 fine for knowingly modifiieing a EPA certified strato saw. To take that risk and be so bold to put it all on the net for the world to read tells me this must be one helluva rewarding hobby, I know money can make people do some stupid stuff, didn't know hobbies could as well, learn something new everyday. Some people grow pot for a hobby but I've never seen them post it on the net for the police to read and come pay them a visit, its getting bad when pot heads are smarter than saw modders,:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

Carry on, this thread is good for giggles,LOLOL


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## THALL10326 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar?
> 
> No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw.
> 
> How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor *my customers* need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:



Oppppppppps, customers ya say, might wanna strike that, just trying to help ya out there.....


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

What law am I breaking by modding a strato saw? They're no longer a new saw when they leave here and I'm not a dealer.


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Obviously you don't have much reading comprehension, or you're calling me a liar. Which is it? I don't advertise anything. What part of that don't you understand? Or again, are you calling me a liar?
> 
> No one posts more vids showing their work than me. My work stand on it's own. I don't need your R&D to support what I do. Matter of fact, I don't need you to support what I do. People obviously like what they see. Otherwise they wouldn't have the confidence they do to send me $1,300 dollars to buy them a brand new MS660, immediately destroy the factory warranty, and to send them a saw that significantly outperforms a stock saw.
> 
> How does it feel to be alone on this island you've created? Obviously neither I nor my customers need what you want to have confidence in my work. Let's just settle this matter right here. I'm NOT going to do what you're wanting. So you can just go somewhere else for your modded saws. How difficult is that? You see, I don't want to please you. You're beating a dead horse.:deadhorse:



yet again..you say it better than I could. They do this with a simple leap of faith...(I actually have to go work for my money so will have to chime in later.) And you really don't have to please me...I like to put my money where I know I will get a return. That implication is obvious to me now. My bet is the more you talk the more obvious it will become to others on the fence. I was good with you up to these last few posts..you have clearly articulated exactly my case. You do expect all to take the leap with you. You have no risk..as with no R&D to back up your mods, its all a gamble and no written warranty if all goes wrong. The customer has to rely on your resources and good nature to make them whole again. In this case you did....wonder if any chips got down there and scored a seal..maybe doesn't show up for a while? What would you do? Say that's the risk you took mr. chips? Like I said, I have to admit you are pure truth in advertising. So what would you do if one of your builds wasn't what the customer expected after spending $750 to $1000 on the project (saw & mods included)? What if one of your builds fell flat relative to to thers at a GTG or some other tangible arena and the customer was PO'ed as it wasn't what he expected? What woud you do if a month in after a mod the saw fried itself on the job for a logger trying to make his numbers? What would you do? Give him his money back? Return the saw to original condition? What? You act is if your some unwilling partner in this...wonder how the IRS see's that?


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## THALL10326 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> What law am I breaking by modding a strato saw? They're no longer a new saw when they leave here and I'm not a dealer.



Brad lets not play stupid now, you know full well what your doing is illegal as hell. Do you really think your outside the law when Stihl, Husqvarna and all the rest, including the dealers have to abide by the law, somehow your specail and don't have to abide, come now, lets get real. I just find it amazing its all over the net for the world to see, any idea how it got there or better yet why its there? Carry on man, when the piper comes knocking one day you sure as hell can't say you wasn't told or pretend you didn't know. Not wishing you any bad luck but you know when you play with fire long enuff sooner or later you get burnt...


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> And Woodchucker, I'm not suggesting you're jealous of me. You have no reason to be. But if you go back and read your post, reading it as from the outside looking in, it simiply reads as nothing but suggesting that this saw is not what it's claimed to be.




Brad, I was strictly talking about race saws in general, and an alky piped 281 which I had already mentioned before. Weime was talking about racing quads and whatnot so I figured I'd add to the conversation since he asked me my opinion. 

Now *maybe* an outside reader would presume that I'm bashing this saw and your work with my post. Or *maybe* they would presume I'm talking about how easily something can be made to be great when it really isn't. I followed that post with one about my truck. If anything my comment could be taken the other way by others who know that it IS hard to build saws and seeing this one thinking it runs good. I was merely just sharing a separate thought - not every thread stays exactly on topic all the time! 

That and (once again) I have no clue why my name or Eric's name was mentioned. This whole thinks REEKS of my 681. What happened happened, you and I settled it, it's over and done with. Besides it was almost 9 months ago.

How I got dragged into this chit AFTER things calmed down in this thread yesterday I have no idea.


Oh and I love whoever put the tag at the bottom of the page that says "woodchucker ballsac". That's real cute......


----------



## WoodChuck'r (Dec 17, 2010)

Oh, and don't mind my typos. This iPhone corrects words but not always correctly!


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## cpr (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> wonder how the IRS see's that?



Enough with the threats.

You want someone to refute your premise, fine. You demand the thousands of dollars in investments for tools, dynos, and flowbenches for a hobby that has at most a couple of thousand potential customers. Ain't gonna happen. What's the going rate for a staff metrician these days? You compare Brad to FMF. How many pipes to they sell a year? Several 1000? 10,000? Also, they are a manufacturer, Brad isn't. Of course FMF is going to offer warranties, etc. They are responsible for the production of their pipes, porters are not. A bit like bawling out the Amish guy who made your table because Sauder puts it in a box and offers to take it back 30 days no questions asked.

You aren't the only one with motorsports familiarity. Dance around the warranty idea, but I GUARNATEE Sonny's, Sassy, Steve Schmidt, AJPE, Long Machine, Miner Bros., Fowler Engines, BAE, Hypermax, GMS, REI, Challenger, St. Clair, Indy Cylinder Head, Lemke Machine, Bultemeier Motorsports, Baker Engines, and a couple hundred other race engine builders I could name DO NOT offer a warranty on motors despite the time spent refining procedures, doing the design work, modeling, dyno pulls, etc...


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## ChipMonger (Dec 17, 2010)

MODS if your around can you clean this thread up please. This is absolutely absurd now. Thanks.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

THALL10326 said:


> Brad lets not play stupid now, you know full well what your doing is illegal as hell. Do you really think your outside the law when Stihl, Husqvarna and all the rest, including the dealers have to abide by the law, somehow your specail and don't have to abide, come now, lets get real. I just find it amazing its all over the net for the world to see, any idea how it got there or better yet why its there? Carry on man, when the piper comes knocking one day you sure as hell can't say you wasn't told or pretend you didn't know. Not wishing you any bad luck but you know when you play with fire long enuff sooner or later you get burnt...



I'm not playing stupid. You show me one place where the law forbids a customer from modding their saws. That would be news to me.


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Brad, I was strictly talking about race saws in general, and an alky piped 281 which I had already mentioned before. Weime was talking about racing quads and whatnot so I figured I'd add to the conversation since he asked me my opinion.
> 
> Now *maybe* an outside reader would presume that I'm bashing this saw and your work with my post. Or *maybe* they would presume I'm talking about how easily something can be made to be great when it really isn't. I followed that post with one about my truck. If anything my comment could be taken the other way by others who know that it IS hard to build saws and seeing this one thinking it runs good. I was merely just sharing a separate thought - not every thread stays exactly on topic all the time!
> 
> ...



And woodchucker you and your experiences had not even a little bit to do with my questioning the "mod for hire" culture developing here. This is something that has bothered me after being in the motorcycle racing world for everything as a rider to a vendor for many years. I don';t know this other guy at all although I have seen his work at our GTG's and I don't know a thing about Brad other than what he's has added to this website. My interest is to get folks thinking along the lines of "what am I getting for my money"? Brad wants to deal in the subjective and has clearly stated so..and really the only objection I have relative to Brad so far is the combination of attacks and the fact he seems to be so vehemently interested in KEEPING saw modding in the subjective realm! Damn why NOT be able to compare yours with other?


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## weimedog (Dec 17, 2010)

cpr said:


> Enough with the threats.
> 
> You want someone to refute your premise, fine. You demand the thousands of dollars in investments for tools, dynos, and flowbenches for a hobby that has at most a couple of thousand potential customers. Ain't gonna happen. What's the going rate for a staff metrician these days? You compare Brad to FMF. How many pipes to they sell a year? Several 1000? 10,000? Also, they are a manufacturer, Brad isn't. Of course FMF is going to offer warranties, etc. They are responsible for the production of their pipes, porters are not. A bit like bawling out the Amish guy who made your table because Sauder puts it in a box and offers to take it back 30 days no questions asked.
> 
> You aren't the only one with motorsports familiarity. Dance around the warranty idea, but I GUARNATEE Sonny's, Sassy, Steve Schmidt, AJPE, Long Machine, Miner Bros., Fowler Engines, BAE, Hypermax, GMS, REI, Challenger, St. Clair, Indy Cylinder Head, Lemke Machine, Bultemeier Motorsports, Baker Engines, and a couple hundred other race engine builders I could name DO NOT offer a warranty on motors despite the time spent refining procedures, doing the design work, modeling, dyno pulls, etc...



As all involved understand....I don't have an issue.....


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> yet again..you say it better than I could. They do this with a simple leap of faith...(I actually have to go work for my money so will have to chime in later.) And you really don't have to please me...I like to put my money where I know I will get a return. That implication is obvious to me now. My bet is the more you talk the more obvious it will become to others on the fence. I was good with you up to these last few posts..you have clearly articulated exactly my case. You do expect all to take the leap with you. You have no risk..as with no R&D to back up your mods, its all a gamble and no written warranty if all goes wrong. The customer has to rely on your resources and good nature to make them whole again. In this case you did....wonder if any chips got down there and scored a seal..maybe doesn't show up for a while? What would you do? Say that's the risk you took mr. chips? Like I said, I have to admit you are pure truth in advertising. So what would you do if one of your builds wasn't what the customer expected after spending $750 to $1000 on the project (saw & mods included)? What if one of your builds fell flat relative to to thers at a GTG or some other tangible arena and the customer was PO'ed as it wasn't what he expected? What woud you do if a month in after a mod the saw fried itself on the job for a logger trying to make his numbers? What would you do? Give him his money back? Return the saw to original condition? What? You act is if your some unwilling partner in this...wonder how the IRS see's that?



Now that you've been called out, all you can do is get mad and throw stones? Puuuuulease! First you state I have nothing to lose. Then you turn around and explain exactly what I do have to lose. I've demonstrated in this very thread what I would do if something did go wrong. Moderators, it's time you stepped in and did something about it. This man is threatening me and that is against site rules. Not only are you threatening me, you are throwing crap at my work when you do not own it or have any experience with it. Both of those are site violations. Please do something about it. I'm done with you.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> Brad, I was strictly talking about race saws in general, and an alky piped 281 which I had already mentioned before. Weime was talking about racing quads and whatnot so I figured I'd add to the conversation since he asked me my opinion.
> 
> Now *maybe* an outside reader would presume that I'm bashing this saw and your work with my post. Or *maybe* they would presume I'm talking about how easily something can be made to be great when it really isn't. I followed that post with one about my truck. If anything my comment could be taken the other way by others who know that it IS hard to build saws and seeing this one thinking it runs good. I was merely just sharing a separate thought - not every thread stays exactly on topic all the time!
> 
> ...



Jason, I'll take your word for it, and thank you for always being amiable. I had nothing to do with the tags, and would not stoop that low. It's not how I feel anyway. I do like weimedogs new name though, lol But I didn't do that either.


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## cpr (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> As all involved understand....I don't have an issue.....



Okay.

I addressed your premise...


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## mdavlee (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't see what the big problem is here. Brad builds work saws. If anyone is looking for a real hot cookie cutter he tells them to seek someone else. If the people paying for mods are happy with what he does then why all the complaining from people that don't have his saws.


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## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)

Hey Brad. . . How long has this crap gone on for? 2 years now? I don't know how you do it man -- this must be the 700th time you've been raked over the coals on here.

Maybe you should hang up you belt, and just mod for yourself and friends? I wouldn't want to eat all the crap you've had to swallow.

I know your day job pays pretty dang well, and this saw mod stuff just supports the saw stuff.

If you recall, this garbage started happening to almost all of your threads after you became a sponsor and offered a service. Before that, not so much.

*sigh* I hate to say it, but this thread should probably either be cleaned out or locked (as has happened to it's predecessors). . . And move on to the next one.

History has shown what will assuredly happen again.


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

I took no issue with what dog was saying about Brad's work or his R&D, that is between them. I did take personal offense to being called a monkey, this showed dog's true self and intent. Than he promptly deleted wheat he said. End of story.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

Metals406 said:


> Hey Brad. . . How long his this crap gone on for? 2 years now? I don't know how you do it man -- this must be the 700th time you've been raked over the coals on here.
> 
> Maybe you should hang up you belt, and just mod for yourself and friends? I wouldn't want to eat all the crap you've had to swallow.
> 
> ...



It all started when I bought my sponsorship 2 years ago in January. I took my first paid port job two years ago this month, and figured I'd better get my sponsorship, rather than be banned. It always has been, and always will be about a hobby. The big difference with me is that I show nearly everything I do. That places me in the lime light, for good or for bad. There are several different reasons why people have hated on me, but they're all pretty pathetic. It's hard to believe that grown men act the way they do. Why this site allows it to go on the way they do is beyond me. They can ban me if they want to for saying that, but it's entirely in their power to stop this crap. To this point, they have choosen not to. I would not be the first builder that has been driven off for this very reason. It wouldn't take a whole lot for the haters to get the message, and the crap would stop for the most part. They simply need to get that message, but that message has not been sent, at least not strong enough. The crap continues. It would be a better place for ALL of us if it would stop. I just wish they would do what's right for all of us. I enjoy this place for the most part, but could sure live without all the drama and mud slinging.


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 17, 2010)

I commend you Brad, I would have given up long time ago. This crap is why I just do stuff for myself and friends, its not worth the B/S and stress!.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

Outlaw5.0 said:


> I commend you Brad, I would have given up long time ago. This crap is why I just do stuff for myself and friends, its not worth the B/S and stress!.



I held to that same opinion for a long time. Enough people were asking for me to port there saws, that I finally decided to let the hobby start paying for itself. Basically anything I get goes right back into saws. Besides, if I quit, I just feel like I've let them win. I have to admit though, it has crossed my mind.


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## FATGUY (Dec 17, 2010)

" I don't like Bed Bath & Beyond, I don't like what goes on at Bed Bath & Beyond, so you know what I do about it? I DON'T GO THERE!"-Augie Smith, Bob & Tom show...

Weimedog, if you don't see the value in his work, don't have him work for you.
Brad, you built my personal favorite saw, bet a lot of people on here can say that....
Andre, you are a monkey:biggrinbounce2:


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## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> It all started when I bought my sponsorship 2 years ago in January. I took my first paid port job two years ago this month, and figured I'd better get my sponsorship, rather than be banned. It always has been, and always will be about a hobby. The big difference with me is that I show nearly everything I do. That places me in the lime light, for good or for bad. There are several different reasons why people have hated on me, but they're all pretty pathetic. It's hard to believe that grown men act the way they do. Why this site allows it to go on the way they do is beyond me. They can ban me if they want to for saying that, but it's entirely in their power to stop this crap. To this point, they have choosen not to. I would not be the first builder that has been driven off for this very reason. It wouldn't take a whole lot for the haters to get the message, and the crap would stop for the most part. They simply need to get that message, but that message has not been sent, at least not strong enough. The crap continues. It would be a better place for ALL of us if it would stop. I just wish they would do what's right for all of us. I enjoy this place for the most part, but could sure live without all the drama and mud slinging.



My time guess was right on then. I commend you for your stick-with-it-ness. . . I would have called it a banana long ago, and found other ways of self torture!


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## Brad101 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> What law am I breaking by modding a strato saw? They're no longer a new saw when they leave here and I'm not a dealer.



This is from the EPA questions and answers from the New Small Engine Emission Rules Section. I do not have the time to chase down a statute number and fines listed, but I am sure they have one to prosecute on and it could be found. They surely can fine you even from a consumer standpoint. They don't care if you are a dealer or not if you do it willfully.

Here is the question and answer..

Can I make adjustments to the new engines at home?

Consumers should perform routine use and care maintenance
as recommended in the operator’s manual. However,
owners should contact a qualified engine technician
for adjustments not listed in the operator’s manual.
Owners should also be aware that it is against the law to
tamper with an EPA-certified small engine. Tampering
with a certified engine may involve adjusting the fuel or
exhaust system, or changing the engine’s performance so
that it no longer meets the manufacturer’s specifications.
Tampering may increase an engine’s exhaust emissions,
contributing to our air pollution problems. To stop customers
and repair facilities from tampering, manufacturers
have equipped many engines with special caps or plugs
that limit or prevent adjusting the fuel mixture or engine
timing. Removal of these special caps or plugs and
adjustments beyond the manufacturers specified limits are
considered tampering and may subject the violator to a
fine.

Take it for what you will but the laws are out there.


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## CentaurG2 (Dec 17, 2010)

The X-torq files. The laws are out there.


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## wooddog (Dec 17, 2010)

Brad101 said:


> This is from the EPA questions and answers from the New Small Engine Emission Rules Section. I do not have the time to chase down a statute number and fines listed, but I am sure they have one to prosecute on and it could be found. They surely can fine you even from a consumer standpoint. They don't care if you are a dealer or not if you do it willfully.
> 
> Here is the question and answer..
> 
> ...




:jawdrop: Looks like I better watch who I do work for in my shop from now on and if I don't know you first hand you don't get the special . 

Also one thing I do a little different, I do pay taxes on what I do and sale in my shop. 

Hurry guys put the fire out :hmm3grin2orange:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-h3diu76rQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P-h3diu76rQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## THALL10326 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm not playing stupid. You show me one place where the law forbids a customer from modding their saws. That would be news to me.



Can I make adjustments to the new engines at home?
Consumers should perform routine use and care maintenance
as recommended in the operator’s manual. However,
owners should contact a qualified engine technician
for adjustments not listed in the operator’s manual.
*Owners should also be aware that it is against the law to
tamper with an EPA-certified small engine. *Tampering
with a certified engine may involve adjusting the fuel or
exhaust system, or changing the engine’s performance so
that it no longer meets the manufacturer’s specifications.
Tampering may increase an engine’s exhaust emissions,
contributing to our air pollution problems. To stop customers
and repair facilities from tampering, manufacturers
have equipped many engines with special caps or plugs
that limit or prevent adjusting the fuel mixture or engine
timing 

Thats from EPA.ORG, or as we say in ole Virginy, striaght from the horse's mouth. 

Brad you can do all the modding you want, more power to ya but lets not pretend what is what. According to the EPA not even the owner is allowed to tamper with a EPA certified engine. Very safe to say they aren't going to make it legal for you to do for money either, hobby or no hobby. 

You would be wise to stop posting all these jobs of yours for the world to see to aviod a knock on the door and all this BS about modding on this site wouldn't be here in the first place to squabble over. Thats just me mind you, I dont care if you mod a zillion saws and post them here but remember its a open forumn for everybody and just because you pay dues it doesn't protect you from those that disagree with you. Carry on and enjoy, I do....


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up. I honestly had not seen that before.


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## THALL10326 (Dec 17, 2010)

Brad101 said:


> This is from the EPA questions and answers from the New Small Engine Emission Rules Section. I do not have the time to chase down a statute number and fines listed, but I am sure they have one to prosecute on and it could be found. They surely can fine you even from a consumer standpoint. They don't care if you are a dealer or not if you do it willfully.
> 
> Here is the question and answer..
> 
> ...



Alright dayummm it to hell, your fast. Have you been modified,LOLOL Seriously I started my post to Brad and then got real busy, never seen yours.................


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> Andre, you are a monkey:biggrinbounce2:



Nik I know I'm a monkey, but I'm getting tired of everyone reminding me.


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## Brad101 (Dec 17, 2010)

THALL10326 said:


> Alright dayummm it to hell, your fast. Have you been modified,LOLOL Seriously I started my post to Brad and then got real busy, never seen yours.................



HAHAHA. It's all good Tommy Boy, I just wanted to make sure his question got answered. I don't have a dog in this fight. The laws against it are there though. Now enforcement of those laws? I don't know. But the possibility is there.


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## bcorradi (Dec 17, 2010)

So if your a dealer or customer and you install a non cat muffler on a 346 your breaking this very same law right?


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

If the EPA really cared about modded saws they'd be at every stihl timbersports event handing out fines, and they'd be at every logging site in the country. Come on give me a break.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

Brad101 said:


> HAHAHA. It's all good Tommy Boy, I just wanted to make sure his question got answered. I don't have a dog in this fight. The laws against it are there though. Now enforcement of those laws? I don't know. But the possibility is there.



I appreciate the info. It's kind of like...where does that leave half of the threads and posters here on AS? Are we all increminating ourselves?


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## WoodChuck'r (Dec 17, 2010)

So what are you guys doing for dinner tonight???

Think I'm gonna do a ribeye with sweet potatoes. S'gonna cold cookin' over that bonfire tonight tough!

But then again, for a ribeye, anything is worth it.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> So what are you guys doing for dinner tonight???
> 
> Think I'm gonna do a ribeye with sweet potatoes. S'gonna cold cookin' over that bonfire tonight tough!
> 
> But then again, for a ribeye, anything is worth it.



Glad you mentioned it. Matter of fact, I'll be having a fine dinner with my beautiful bride of 22 years tonight at Ruth's Chris Stake House, and then getting a motel with my hot date


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

WoodChucker81 said:


> So what are you guys doing for dinner tonight???
> 
> Think I'm gonna do a ribeye with sweet potatoes. S'gonna cold cookin' over that bonfire tonight tough!
> 
> But then again, for a ribeye, anything is worth it.



Now that sounds like a good plan, but I must say you left one thing out. Beer!


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> Glad you mentioned it. Matter of fact, I'll be having a fine dinner with my beautiful bride of 22 years tonight at Ruth's Chris Stake House, and then getting a motel with my hot date



I'll see you at 6:00 on the dot.


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I'll see you at 6:00 on the dot.



I bet you don't!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I bet you don't!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:



OK I'll just send you a card instead.:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## Metals406 (Dec 17, 2010)

thall10326 said:


> thats from nazi.org, or as we say in ole virginy, striaght from the horse's mouth.
> 
> Brad you can do all the modding you want, more power to ya but lets not pretend what is what. According to the nazi's not even the owner is allowed to tamper with a nazi certified engine. Very safe to say they aren't going to make it legal for you to do for money either, hobby or no hobby.
> 
> You would be wise to stop posting all these jobs of yours for the world to see to aviod a knock on the door (from the ss) and all this bs about modding on this site wouldn't be here in the first place to squabble over. Thats just me mind you, i dont care if you mod a zillion saws and post them here but remember its a open forumn for everybody and just because you pay dues it doesn't protect you from those that disagree with you. Carry on and enjoy, i do....



*fixt!*


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## Brad101 (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I appreciate the info. It's kind of like...where does that leave half of the threads and posters here on AS? Are we all increminating ourselves?



I am no attorney, but as there are laws against it I would think it would make a case against someone easier to prove. 

As I am sure you know in 2010 the EPA regs of small engines really took hold as did the potential fines for tampering with them.

As far as the laws being enforced, a lot of times that depends on what administration happens to be in power at the time. It really does make a difference on who goes after what. Not to get political or anything but I know with the admin that has power now this kind of environmental stuff has a priority.

I would think with all the changes in regulations and administrations over the last couple years the risk of being prosecuted for this type of offence would be greater now than in the past.

Just something to think about..


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## Outlaw5.0 (Dec 17, 2010)

Some automotive websites prohibit any discussions pertaining to disabeling or modifing emission systems and emisison related components.


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## FATGUY (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I'll see you at 6:00 on the dot.



let's crash his dinner date, I'll drive there, but you pay. I'll even shower and put on my good black t shirt and jeans...


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## PB (Dec 17, 2010)

These threads are all the same. Pick a saw, any saw that Brad has built and there is probably a corresponding thread. 

Too much drama here ladies.


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## stihlboy (Dec 17, 2010)

infractions have been given for member bashing,

keep that in mind gentlemen


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## PB (Dec 17, 2010)

stihlboy said:


> infractions have been given for member bashing,
> 
> keep that in mind gentlemen



So I shouldn't call you pretty?


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

PB said:


> So I shouldn't call you pretty?



Pretty ugly:hmm3grin2orange:


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## stihlboy (Dec 17, 2010)

PB said:


> So I shouldn't call you pretty?



thats not negative so its ok


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## stihlboy (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> I'm pretty ugly:hmm3grin2orange:



lmao i agree


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## Tzed250 (Dec 17, 2010)

. 

It has been against the law to modify engines into non-compliance for decades...nothing new with that. The EPA doesn't mind to put thousands in the mining industry out of work, so if you think they won't crush someone modding saws for profit you are sadly mistaken. 


.


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## dozerdan (Dec 17, 2010)

THALL10326 said:


> Can I make adjustments to the new engines at home?
> Consumers should perform routine use and care maintenance
> as recommended in the operator’s manual. However,
> owners should contact a qualified engine technician
> ...



Brad
I had a few not so polite conversations with EPA. The best I can figure is that you may or may not be breaking the law. It all depends on your wording. I told EPA one time that I will stop building saws when they stop all races of any kind in the US.
Any person in the US can buy any new car that they want to, Take that car from the dealer and make any mods to that car engine that they want to or have it done by someone else. That car can run on any track and it is now for competition use only but not street legal. The same with saws. Just make sure you tell your customers that the saw is now for competition use only. If the new owner takes the saw to the woods, that's not your problem.

With that being said, lets get Brads thread back on topic. Some people may want to hear more about the new 372XP X-TORQ saws.

Later
Dan


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## blsnelling (Dec 17, 2010)

*MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT*. Any saw that I've ever worked on is for competition use only!!! LOL:hmm3grin2orange: Thanks Dan


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## willysmn (Dec 17, 2010)

*372 XT whatever*

I agree iwth you on both accounts, Dan. I note that you are a Dolmar dealer as well. I'll pm you.
Willysmn


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## Blowncrewcab (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> *MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT*. Any saw that I've ever worked on is for competition use only!!! LOL:hmm3grin2orange: Thanks



Funny, your saw won a race today, Against a Mustang GT, the saw was in the back of my truck, we where stopped at a light together, he noticed the Performancetrucks.net stickers on my windows and thought he'd give it a try:hmm3grin2orange: Just didn't work out for him


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## Tiger Rag (Dec 17, 2010)

blsnelling said:


> *MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT*. Any saw that I've ever worked on is for competition use only!!! LOL:hmm3grin2orange: Thanks Dan



lmao! :hmm3grin2orange:

I agree with Dan. Was thinking the same thing.

As far as everyone else in this thread: :notrolls2:

Man, how did a good thread go this bad. It started out great and informative but ended up:


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## Brad101 (Dec 17, 2010)

We use to have all customers sign a form stating the saws that were modified were for competition use only and also not fire safe. We never had any problems, but that was a while ago and things have changed. I don't think I would use the term "woods ported" anymore.


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## Tzed250 (Dec 17, 2010)

.


So let me get this straight....the only thing Brad builds is race saws.....



Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!


.


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## Blowncrewcab (Dec 17, 2010)

Maybe he should just use the term "Tuned the way it should be". so what if some metal was removed to make it run like it should!


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## MCW (Dec 17, 2010)

FATGUY said:


> Andre, you are a monkey:biggrinbounce2:



Did you forget to wax your back again Andy? You've gotta lay of the horse steroids mate.

I'd love to see some data from pre porting and post porting in regard to power and torque. I'm sure even Brad would, but the truth of the matter is it's all in the hands when you're actually using the saw. 
When I went from my stock 7900 to my modded 7900 on a job where tree numbers were logged etc my productivity went up around 15-20% from memory, even more with a 32" bar.

I haven't read a fair part of this thread. I go to bed (opposite side of the world remember), then have 5 pages to catch up on the next day. I haven't got the time so apart from reading Andy's response to which waxing clinic he will go use I'm having little further input here. Hopefully the waxing clinic and Andy's back isn't EPA certified although if Andy's back hair can be used in racing (maybe seat cushioning?) all should be good...


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## timberwolf (Dec 17, 2010)

I say competition or saws... there are all sorts of these competitions from informal gtgs to county fairs to sanctioned races.

Classes in general follow stock, work class, stock appearing, and unlimited, but every area has their own twists on rule specifics.

Stock - no modifications permitted

Work class - Fully functional such it could in theory be used for work and must run on pump gas.

Stock appearing - what ever parts fit under the covers, no expansion chambers, no fuel restrictions

Unlimited - no explaination needed


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## Andyshine77 (Dec 17, 2010)

MCW said:


> Did you forget to wax your back again Andy? You've gotta lay of the horse steroids mate.
> 
> I'd love to see some data from pre porting and post porting in regard to power and torque. I'm sure even Brad would, but the truth of the matter is it's all in the hands when you're actually using the saw.
> When I went from my stock 7900 to my modded 7900 on a job where tree numbers were logged etc my productivity went up around 15-20% from memory, even more with a 32" bar.
> ...



I tried to rep you but it wouldn't let me. I find Nair works better than waxing, it also doesn't hurt as much.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## o8f150 (Dec 17, 2010)

maybe i can get brad to port my cs-370 and cs-310


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## troutfisher (Dec 17, 2010)

timberwolf said:


> I say competition or saws... there are all sorts of these competitions from informal gtgs to county fairs to sanctioned races.
> 
> Classes in general follow stock, work class, stock appearing, and unlimited, but every area has their own twists on rule specifics.
> 
> ...



.......and I'll bet an alchohol motor gives off less pollution than a stock gas saw


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## MCW (Dec 17, 2010)

Andyshine77 said:


> I tried to rep you but it wouldn't let me. I find Nair works better than waxing, it also doesn't hurt as much.:hmm3grin2orange:



Hopefully you were trying to rep me for the saw part of my post Andy, and not for the waxing suggestion.
But yeah, you have got certain primate body hair traits in your videos 

Must be some sort of adaptation/evolution to suit your cooler climate...


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## parrisw (Dec 17, 2010)

weimedog said:


> No fraud here. Only fraud I have seen is relative to ebay...I personally would rather not defend against personal attack which twists the responses away from my intent and makes things personal and let this post go back to a report on a creative build. And maybe if we were to start another thread on how to find ways to measure in a repeatable way saw modifications. Others may have an agenda or beef with some saw builder or another...I really don't. Just want to..yet again, as i have said multiple times in multiple ways,...figure out ways to define a standard methodology in defining and quantifying a product concept in a way potential customers can understand what they are getting for their money. That's it. No more no less. So I will not egg this on any more either and hope pictures and reports follow relative to Strato builds.



If you want to figure it out, great, go do it, then tell us how it works out for you. Your just wasting your breath here, nobody cares what you think.


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## StihlBoy440 (Feb 10, 2011)

stock appearing is always the fun one to deal, do most events not allow ANY modification to the stock plastic, on most saws that rules out 2 piece heads, unless the builder gets fancy. Everyone has there on set of rules like stated above, it makes for a fun event sometimes!


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