# Line clearance question.



## pdqdl (Dec 10, 2010)

I am meeting a customer next week to bid on some tree trimming. Sadly, I don't think I have ever been asked to do this before, so I thought I might go there prepared with a little more wisdom than I have right now.

Customer is moving an electric service line. The power company says that they have to clear the trees. Customer says that the line must go through the middle of one of his trees, and that he does not want to butcher the trees.

What are the usual specifications for how much clearance a service line has?

Is it acceptable to leave branches hanging over the line, or must we butcher the tree?

Some advice would be helpful. I am meeting the customer on monday, along with the electrical contractor, so I will probably figure something out.


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## trailduster2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*clearance*

Up here in Colorado I work for a line clearing company. Our standards are, there must be no less than 5 feet off center. Meaning a total of 10 feet clearance. 5 on eather side of the line. Ground to sky. Nothing under the line and nothing above the line. Storms can play havic on the lines and when thay get to swinging in the wind along with the trees things can get zapped and then you have some real issues. This to dependes on the line voltage that is going up. Most of the lines that run a house is below .725 kv - and 15 kv. the triplex that runes to the house from the meter pole is around a 220v. this line require a total clearance of 18 inches. Hope this helps just remember that this could vary from state to state.


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## pdqdl (Dec 10, 2010)

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I believe the service drop is only intended to be a 240v line. Thanks for the input on that issue.

But now that you have suggested it, I guess it might be a primary wire being extended, so I will get mentally prepared for that, too.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear: I believe the service drop is only intended to be a 240v line.
> 
> But now that you have suggested it, I guess it might be a primary wire being extended, so I will get mentally prepared for that, too.



If it is a service wire triplex merely a hole at proper height will suffice. You will need it to not rub as a general rule of thumb 3 foot clearance should work for that. If it turns out to be primary it will require here 10 from dripline and overhang removed or reduced to skyline. It however is different one power company to the next.


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## brookpederson (Dec 10, 2010)

I've seen quite a few secondary lines running right through the tree, but i think they were small tree's that had grown up into the lines. I've never heard of anyone wanting to run a line through a mature tree before. Sounds like a bad Deal.


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## beowulf343 (Dec 10, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> If it is a service wire triplex merely a hole at proper height will suffice. You will need it to not rub as a general rule of thumb 3 foot clearance should work for that. If it turns out to be primary it will require here 10 from dripline and overhang removed or reduced to skyline. It however is different one power company to the next.



It's generally the same here for both the service and primary. I mean the same as what you said, not the same clearance for both.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 10, 2010)

We are supposed to be 10ft on each side of primary and below it, and nothing above. Now when saying below, that is below live primary wire, not neutral. Neutral if I remember correctly is 5 ft below and 10ft on either side.

It is actually greater distance for 44kv (and nothing below 44kv), anything above 44kv has the trees removed completely on both sides (distance depending on a few factors) creating a clear right of way.

Secondary - we never did much trimming on them and I don't recall reading anything on that, but suspect it does exist.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> We are supposed to be 10ft on each side of primary and below it, and nothing above. Now when saying below, that is below live primary wire, not neutral. Neutral if I remember correctly is 5 ft below and 10ft on either side.
> 
> It is actually greater distance for 44kv (and nothing below 44kv), anything above 44kv has the trees removed completely on both sides (distance depending on a few factors) creating a clear right of way.
> 
> Secondary - we never did much trimming on them and I don't recall reading anything on that, but suspect it does exist.



Secondary triplex on new right of ways will be clear of growth so serviceman can place new wire and sag in to proper spec. I have cut 100000 miles of new right of way and likely trimmed more than a million. All proper clearance shall include minimal secondary clearance but so many contractors fail to do this and it is shoty work. It reminds me of brush hogging the lines and leaving the saplings near guys and overhead stub also proper clearance standard to clear. Of course I have cleared them over twenty years.


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## pdqdl (Dec 10, 2010)

I do not think this is right-of-way clearance for a service line installation, I think it is only a line drop from pole to building. The customer only referred to one tree needing trimmed, so I think he is just moving the service line.

He told me that the line would go right over (or through) the tree, and that he did not want to top the tree.

In Kansas City, the utility company is responsible for all the wiring up to the meter box, so I doubt if the electrical contractor will be pulling the line through any recently created hole in the tree, and I suspect that KCPL will not be terribly willing to do it either.

Comments?


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## lxt (Dec 10, 2010)

Due to the fact each utility has different specifications pertaining to clearance you should: 1- contact them & ask for specifications as it pertains to this customer (is it considered capital work?) 2- what Kv are we making way for? 3- are the poles there or marked?......line of sight from pole to pole or if this is just a standard house drop....ala; triplex/coated secondary ask for their clearance specs!!


good luck!!



LXT..................


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 10, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Secondary triplex on new right of ways will be clear of growth so serviceman can place new wire and sag in to proper spec. I have cut 100000 miles of new right of way and likely trimmed more than a million. All proper clearance shall include minimal secondary clearance but so many contractors fail to do this and it is shoty work. It reminds me of brush hogging the lines and leaving the saplings near guys and overhead stub also proper clearance standard to clear. Of course I have cleared them over twenty years.



I worked for the Government Owned Utility (forestry) but we only did the right of ways and primary related work. Never touched anything going to customer property. In fact the vast majority of our work never had any transformers on the lines/poles to feed customers. So don't have a lot of personal experience in the secondary side. Have done some secondary stuff since I have been on my own, but not a whole lot.


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> I worked for the Government Owned Utility (forestry) but we only did the right of ways and primary related work. Never touched anything going to customer property. In fact the vast majority of our work never had any transformers on the lines/poles to feed customers. So don't have a lot of personal experience in the secondary side. Have done some secondary stuff since I have been on my own, but not a whole lot.



I was not trying to bust your chops bro just pointing out proper clearance. I have worked 500kv down and really wished I had not, it is now done by Mexico.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 10, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I was not trying to bust your chops bro just pointing out proper clearance. I have worked 500kv down and really wished I had not, it is now done by Mexico.



Hey no worries rope !! 

We all here to learn from each other.. and throw in a tip or two if we have something to offer (or sometimes even if we don't)


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## ropensaddle (Dec 10, 2010)

lxt said:


> Due to the fact each utility has different specifications pertaining to clearance you should: 1- contact them & ask for specifications as it pertains to this customer (is it considered capital work?) 2- what Kv are we making way for? 3- are the poles there or marked?......line of sight from pole to pole or if this is just a standard house drop....ala; triplex/coated secondary ask for their clearance specs!!
> 
> 
> good luck!!
> ...



Good advice call them ask for their construction supervisor and you will likely have to leave message but he should call you with the info.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 10, 2010)

brookpederson said:


> I've seen quite a few secondary lines running right through the tree, but i think they were small tree's that had grown up into the lines. I've never heard of anyone wanting to run a line through a mature tree before. Sounds like a bad Deal.



I've done it a few times, a few feet of clearance is all that is needed. Quite often with new construction on wooded lots you will need to do some clearance work for the permanent drop. One of my clients has a contract with WEPCO to do jobs too small to send an Orange truck out on, I work for a few builders too.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 11, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> I worked for the Government Owned Utility (forestry) but we only did the right of ways and primary related work. Never touched anything going to customer property. In fact the vast majority of our work never had any transformers on the lines/poles to feed customers. So don't have a lot of personal experience in the secondary side. Have done some secondary stuff since I have been on my own, but not a whole lot.



So why chime in in if you don't know. Rope is right on this. A service drop just shouldn't rub.
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 12, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> So why chime in in if you don't know. Rope is right on this. A service drop just shouldn't rub.
> Jeff



Not rubbing is not a spec. I will dig out my old books and take a look, as is likely in there. You see as a Govt owned utility, we rarely did triplex clearing as it was the customers responsibility. (we would do it if customer paid for it, but our rates were higher than any tree service company ) The ones I have done since being on my own, have done a couple of feet around triplex.. but that does not mean it is according to spec. 

The initial questions, as I recall, does not specify what it is. It says "electric service line". Now if in rural area, we usually run primary up to house and place transformer on last pole, and triplex from there. Utility is only responsible for it if more than one customer is fed from service, so if only one then customer responsible. However, the primary portion still follows the same rules as any other on grid. 

If you consider "electrical service line" to be only the triplex, then ok for discussion to focus on only that, that however has not been stated anywhere as I recall. If it is NOT just the triplex, then discussion needs to go furhter, and a lot of guys have added additional info on the hv side as well.

I can guarantee you would never pass around here with a trim of "never rubbing". I will pull spec this afternoon as I have them in book in office (now a few years old but doubt that has changed). Note, that may well change from one utility or province/state to another (especially the low voltage -- less than .75kv)


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## ropensaddle (Dec 12, 2010)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Not rubbing is not a spec. I will dig out my old books and take a look, as is likely in there. You see as a Govt owned utility, we rarely did triplex clearing as it was the customers responsibility. (we would do it if customer paid for it, but our rates were higher than any tree service company ) The ones I have done since being on my own, have done a couple of feet around triplex.. but that does not mean it is according to spec.
> 
> The initial questions, as I recall, does not specify what it is. It says "electric service line". Now if in rural area, we usually run primary up to house and place transformer on last pole, and triplex from there. Utility is only responsible for it if more than one customer is fed from service, so if only one then customer responsible. However, the primary portion still follows the same rules as any other on grid.
> 
> ...



I never said it was spec just a rule of thumb, we got a three foot hole. The power company did not want the insulation getting rubbed off but proper line clearance will include minimal secondary clearance each trim cycle. I have seen shoddy work by many top clearance crews leaving limbs rubbing and weighted heavy on service drops. Also the fat guy bush hogging miles of distribution and never getting off the tractor to clear guy wires and overhead stub poles causes problems and is shoddy too. I am not saying you did this mind you just saying how ropey looked at these things.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 12, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I never said it was spec just a rule of thumb, we got a three foot hole. The power company did not want the insulation getting rubbed off but proper line clearance will include minimal secondary clearance each trim cycle. I have seen shoddy work by many top clearance crews leaving limbs rubbing and weighted heavy on service drops. Also the fat guy bush hogging miles of distribution and never getting off the tractor to clear guy wires and overhead stub poles causes problems and is shoddy too. I am not saying you did this mind you just saying how ropey looked at these things.



Hey when we cleared working for utility, we cleared :hmm3grin2orange: 

We had (on larger jobs) over a million dollars of equipment at our disposal, and we were paid by the hour.. no worries on how long it took. In winter months spent more hours in Nodwell with heater on than doing work some days..! Some of that has changed in last 20 years mind you, and some crews no doubt are focused on production now.

I looked and our spec says one meter around lv service drops. Not sure if that is up to date or not though. The way it is written it could actually be interpreted as a distance of greater than one meter as it gets into tree movement in wind not encroaching beyond 10% within the clear zone (this however is an overall statement for all lines). They may have taken that part out, as it was always difficult to interpret and always was a point of discussion.. and we usually ignored for the most part.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 12, 2010)

My service drop funs through my mulberry tree.
Jeff


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## pdqdl (Jan 10, 2011)

For all those guys that followed this thread: Thanks for the help. Sadly, in the final analysis, this was pretty much a waste of time, because I never needed any line clearance advice for this problem, once I was there. 

(Sorry I forgot to post an update sooner.)

This bid was almost a joke. The utility company didn't care what was near the wire, but the electrical contractor needed the branches whacked out of the way to lift the wire, 'cause he was on an extension ladder 20' up the side of the house.

The customer was only moving the service line from a low point on the side of the house to just under the corner eave closest to the pole on a 2 story house. None of the trees was bigger than 6" caliper, and most of them were little scrub trees that should all have been wiped out. They were all the wrong plants in a bad location, but the customer wanted to keep them.

I tried to talk him into taking out all but one tree in a cluster of weed trees, but he wouldn't do it. So...I left a nasty little siberian elm hanging over the new service drop (already installed while we were there). My mechanic and I did the whole job in about 40 minutes with a Stihl power pruner. $150.00

I was thoroughly disillusioned that anybody dealing with contractors while doing a re-hab could be so incompetent at describing what they wanted over the telephone.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 10, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> For all those guys that followed this thread: Thanks for the help. Sadly, in the final analysis, this was pretty much a waste of time, because I never needed any line clearance advice for this problem, once I was there.
> 
> (Sorry I forgot to post an update sooner.)
> 
> ...


 
We (you know who), never said ' Not rubbing' was a spec. Now I think you know what I mean.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Jan 10, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> We (you know who), never said ' Not rubbing' was a spec. Now I think you know what I mean.
> Jeff


 
No Jeff, what do you mean ? I called it a rule of thumb, in line clearance some things are considered such. In some cases contracts call for different specs. It is a rule of thumb and proper clearance to at least get minimal clearance on drops. It is also good to clear overhead stub pole and guy's some do and some don't, I always did, if your going to do a job do it right!


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 11, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> No Jeff, what do you mean ? I called it a rule of thumb, in line clearance some things are considered such. In some cases contracts call for different specs. It is a rule of thumb and proper clearance to at least get minimal clearance on drops. It is also good to clear overhead stub pole and guy's some do and some don't, I always did, if your going to do a job do it right!


 
I said that 'Not rubbing' is not a spec. You use the phrase ' Rule of thumb', I think we are on the same page here if you go back and read some.
Jeff


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## itsmyblood (Jan 11, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> I do not think this is right-of-way clearance for a service line installation, I think it is only a line drop from pole to building. The customer only referred to one tree needing trimmed, so I think he is just moving the service line.
> 
> He told me that the line would go right over (or through) the tree, and that he did not want to top the tree.
> 
> ...


 
I'v done line clearance for 13 years in three states and triplex service drops if thats what your refering to only need enough clearance so nothing is pushing or pulling on the wire ... With that said they are stringing a new line and the linemen will need enough room to get the wire into place. So use your judgment and try to picture the pole and the weather head and the path of the service drop.


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## Labman (Jan 11, 2011)

We had a scheduled outage to clear the line down the way last summer. I knocked a big hole in my osage orange tree by my service line when I had a chance with the power off. My goal is to die of old age before it grows back.


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## squad143 (Jan 11, 2011)

I had to trim and remove some trees for a customer who was having a new service connected (by Ontario Hydro) to a new residence a few years ago. If I recall, I was required to clear a straight path from the pole connection to the mast and four feet around that straight line. Plus, the vegatation from line to ground had to be removed (for line installation). 

I'm sure each area has their own regs.


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## millbilly (Jan 12, 2011)

*I would think the utility company would do the trimming*

As far as i know the utility co.would have there own tree crew come in and the job engineer would tell the forman what has to be removed to install the new service loop.

If it were me I would tell them to run it underground which is almost code every where.

As for trimming the service loop, crews used to do it to get their tree count up so it looked good on paper.

The utility company around my way won't even trim bare secondaries hoping they bun down so they can replace them with triplex, since funding comes out of a different budget.

Also don't be fooled into calling it insulation, its actually weatherproofing, calling it insulation gives one a false sence of security


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## millbilly (Jan 12, 2011)

*i forgot one thing*

service drops are only 110 volts


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## itsmyblood (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> service drops are only 110 volts


 
Actually 220 volts two 110 volt and a nutral.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

itsmyblood said:


> Actually 220 volts two 110 volt and a nutral.


 
Lol actually 240 to 880


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> As far as i know the utility co.would have there own tree crew come in and the job
> 
> If it were me I would tell them to run it underground which is almost code every where.


 
Underground is not code it has to meet code and is at a cost to customer in most cases. Also bare in mind, if your objective for underground is to save trees you will likely be surprised in two years when the trees die you were attempting to save!


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## itsmyblood (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol actually 240 to 880


 
Your right i'v seen them come in at many different voltages i think the only thing that matters is that there over 220


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

itsmyblood said:


> Your right i'v seen them come in at many different voltages i think the only thing that matters is that there over 220


 
Lol yup and 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc can kill so all are dangerous. I always say it is not amps or volts that determine a fatal electrocution it is the ohms or lack of that do.


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## itsmyblood (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol yup and 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc can kill so all are dangerous. I always say it is not amps or volts that determine a fatal electrocution it is the ohms or lack of that do.


 
your right and even on distribution lines you dealing with about 60 amps min.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 12, 2011)

I got a shock from a phone line house drop. Never expected that.
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> I got a shock from a phone line house drop. Never expected that.
> Jeff


 Lmao yup the ringer wire is a little hot sob I been bit by it too. Been touched by 12500 indirect once as well. Early in my career it was a monthly thing getting a little charge always scary but mostly minimal contact due to high ohms.
I learned how to do trees on fire with out being bit through the years by staying out of the path of least resistance. It doesn't matter the voltage until it gets high enough to have wild voltage or in other words arc. If your not touching it usually your not exposed.


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## millbilly (Jan 12, 2011)

*lol*

I knew I could get fools to bite on this hook. I love snow days.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> I knew I could get fools to bite on this hook. I love snow days.



Who you calling fool fool lol


YouTube - I pity the Fool


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> service drops are only 110 volts


 

You R wrong service drops can be a minimum of 240v to a residence, and up to 480v. Do not give people false info also It is not the same as in ur house where u have a 100 or 200a breaker, There is to much to tell in just a few words here, the main thing is to avoid contact and asume the highest voltage. I am a Journeyman lineman for a large power comp and do service drops for trimmers all the time. I also will install cover up if they request it, and in many cases have put cover up on a service with intent to leave it so wire could rub on the tree because homeowner wouldnt here of there tree being trimed, and as a utility ur trimming rights stop at the primary, the cust can let the secondary grow up as much as they want. If it rubs the wire in two we just have to fix. I have cleared built and maintianed power lines from 240v to 500kv, the clearence part was only when its in my way. In my career as a troubleman I have refused countless primary lines, helped many trimmers who had ropes smoking on pri and put up 100s of service lines on trim jobs that didnt go as planed. At the power comp I work for it is free to have us come out and that is cheap insurance. In the town I live in all the trimmers have my number and I help them any way I can. James


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

itsmyblood said:


> your right and even on distribution lines you dealing with about 60 amps min.


 
Its 60 cycles a second amps have nothing to do with time Just load.


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol yup and 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc can kill so all are dangerous. I always say it is not amps or volts that determine a fatal electrocution it is the ohms or lack of that do.


 
It one tenth of a milli amp and its ac not dc. dc is what your car bat puts out.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> You R wrong service drops can be a minimum of 240v to a residence, and up to 480v. Do not give people false info also It is not the same as in ur house where u have a 100 or 200a breaker, There is to much to tell in just a few words here, the main thing is to avoid contact and asume the highest voltage. I am a Journeyman lineman for a large power comp and do service drops for trimmers all the time. I also will install cover up if they request it, and in many cases have put cover up on a service with intent to leave it so wire could rub on the tree because homeowner wouldnt here of there tree being trimed, and as a utility ur trimming rights stop at the primary, the cust can let the secondary grow up as much as they want. If it rubs the wire in two we just have to fix. I have cleared built and maintianed power lines from 240v to 500kv, the clearence part was only when its in my way. In my career as a troubleman I have refused countless primary lines, helped many trimmers who had ropes smoking on pri and put up 100s of service lines on trim jobs that didnt go as planed. At the power comp I work for it is free to have us come out and that is cheap insurance. In the town I live in all the trimmers have my number and I help them any way I can. James


 
What about 880? Anyway he thought I was a fool for saying ohms is usually what makes a contact fatal or not I tried to explain if you make contact with a pruner with infinite resistance you will not feel a tingle but bare handed its all over. Some lines like I cut row on 500kv, if you get too close they will jump out and get you but resistance is still a factor. Of course the primary single phase can too just not as far away. Resistance and staying out of the path of least resistance kept me alive in 27 years of trimming trees on fire!


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Underground is not code it has to meet code and is at a cost to customer in most cases. Also bare in mind, if your objective for underground is to save trees you will likely be surprised in two years when the trees die you were attempting to save!


 

I agree with u on the tree root part about 8 years ago, but since then in my area and the other 10 states iv worked in 98 perccent of all urd utilitys are directional board or water jeted in and r in most cases much deeper than the roots. Also there is a big push right now by the public service comision to put it all underground for more reliable service to the cust, lineman do not like it because it takes longer trouble shot. James


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> It one tenth of a milli amp and its ac not dc. dc is what your car bat puts out.


 
It is in my safety materials 1/10 in 12vdc not saying yours is not right too but I tested on this rule. No matter it is very little voltage ohms is what kills you imho.


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It is in my safety materials 1/10 in 12vdc not saying yours is not right too but I tested on this rule. No matter it is very little voltage ohms is what kills you imho.


 
I would be a jack ass to argue with your books. It is very little to kill and 120v claims more lives every year than all others combined. Do u clear for ark power and light or entergy.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> I agree with u on the tree root part about 8 years ago, but since then in my area and the other 10 states iv worked in 98 perccent of all urd utilitys are directional board or water jeted in and r in most cases much deeper than the roots. Also there is a big push right now by the public service comision to put it all underground for more reliable service to the cust, lineman do not like it because it takes longer trouble shot. James


 
Fault finder work on underground?


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## millbilly (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> You R wrong service drops can be a minimum of 240v to a residence, and up to 480v. Do not give people false info also It is not the same as in ur house where u have a 100 or 200a breaker, There is to much to tell in just a few words here, the main thing is to avoid contact and asume the highest voltage. I am a Journeyman lineman for a large power comp and do service drops for trimmers all the time. I also will install cover up if they request it, and in many cases have put cover up on a service with intent to leave it so wire could rub on the tree because homeowner wouldnt here of there tree being trimed, and as a utility ur trimming rights stop at the primary, the cust can let the secondary grow up as much as they want. If it rubs the wire in two we just have to fix. I have cleared built and maintianed power lines from 240v to 500kv, the clearence part was only when its in my way. In my career as a troubleman I have refused countless primary lines, helped many trimmers who had ropes smoking on pri and put up 100s of service lines on trim jobs that didnt go as planed. At the power comp I work for it is free to have us come out and that is cheap insurance. In the town I live in all the trimmers have my number and I help them any way I can. James


 
ok rocket man explain to me how i can have 110 volts in my house without a step down trans former.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> I would be a jack ass to argue with your books. It is very little to kill and 120v claims more lives every year than all others combined. Do u clear for ark power and light or entergy.


 
I have cleared for Indiana,Mi,Texas,Kansas,and lastly Arkansas both Ap&l now entergy and First electric coop!


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> ok rocket man explain to me how i can have 110 volts in my house without a step down trans former.


 
Because your breaker box has two bars for each hot and then a separate neutral ground and safety ground. One leg is 120!
Under your primitive understanding how would you get 220 for your electric oven?


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

I got in my lineman books It take 1 tenth of 1 amp for 1 sec in any voltage to kill. The 1 second part is because that is how long it takes for musle contraction. Ohms is resistance and your bodys is about the same as water. I cant posibly rember all of it to many books to many years. Rope thanks for posting that u got me off my but and into the books. James


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Fault finder work on underground?


 
Yes we have a new one that will tell you how many feet to fault, and even test through transformers. Very neet the down side is buy the time u get it and set up more times than not u would have had the overhead repaird. It sends a dc pusle out I dont know all the ins and outs its over my head.


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## millbilly (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Because your breaker box has two bars for each hot and then a separate neutral ground and safety ground. One leg is 120!
> Under your primitive understanding how would you get 220 for your electric oven?


 
like I stated from the beging your service drop is 110. now if you want to show me how much you really know what would the voltage be at the meter if your service loop was 385 feet and you were using 6 gauge copper wire. assuming the voltage was 115volts at the tap.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> I got in my lineman books It take 1 tenth of 1 volt for 1 sec in any voltage to kill. The 1 second part is because that is how long it takes for musle contraction. Ohms is resistance and your bodys is about the same as water. I cant posibly rember all of it to many books to many years. Rope thanks for posting that u got me off my but and into the books. James


 
I learned the 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc in asplundh foreman manual I believe we're both right. I believe the point they are making is to not be complacent the resistance ohms is what always determined if I got shocked. If I made no contact with my body or other known low resistance conductor, I received no shock. Simple in theory no so simple with 20 foot burning overhang but even that can be overcome by staying out of the path of least resistance. I always tried to be above the limbs that were burning so if they became energized the flow will always take the swiftest path to ground and I was out of that path!


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> ok rocket man explain to me how i can have 110 volts in my house without a step down trans former.


 

Thanks for the rocketman thing but rocket men can spell and type better than me. To anser ur question most services r 3 wires but some r 4 on the three wire ones there will be two phases I would like to say the coated ones but hate to give a blanket statement, anyways 1 of those to nuetral is 120v the two phases together will be 240v and all jokeing aside remember this if you ever cut the neutral or uncoated one in half do not grab both ends at the same time or it will be game over. The neutral is no more than a return path and when split u should treat it with the upmost respect I have seen several neutrals cut with hydrolic sticksaws and most times people cant get both ends back together due to tension. The neutral carrys max line voltage so if its 7200 phase to ground than thats what the neutral has on it u just wont no till u break the path in half. There r houses with step downs usually from 480 to 240.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> like I stated from the beging your service drop is 110. now if you want to show me how much you really know what would the voltage be at the meter if your service loop was 385 feet and you were using 6 gauge copper wire. assuming the voltage was 115volts at the tap.


 
No the service is 240 that is like saying a three phase is only 4110v one leg may be but combined voltage or maximum is what the service is rated. Well actually it is normally rated in amps here. I am not a electrician by any means but I am not a fool either and you thinking me for one is your mistake. Resistance is the killer just ask a bird.


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> I learned the 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc in asplundh foreman manual I believe we're both right. I believe the point they are making is to not be complacent the resistance ohms is what always determined if I got shocked. If I made no contact with my body or other known low resistance conductor, I received no shock. Simple in theory no so simple with 20 foot burning overhang but even that can be overcome by staying out of the path of least resistance. I always tried to be above the limbs that were burning so if they became energized the flow will always take the swiftest path to ground and I was out of that path!


 
Yes u were right I should have said that. 1 tenth at any volage ac or dc. If u were clearing out of a bucket u can almost cheat death. The one sitting in my drive is tested at 100kv every 6 months so esentialy you are like a bird on a wire. I glove pri out of mine every day but were I have got shocked is in the rain stormes when the trees r wet and then it will track.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> Yes u were right I should have said that. 1 tenth at any volage ac or dc. If u were clearing out of a bucket u can almost cheat death. The one sitting in my drive is tested at 100kv every 6 months so esentialy you are like a bird on a wire. I glove pri out of mine every day but were I have got shocked is in the rain stormes when the trees r wet and then it will track.


 
Yeah our buckets were hypot tested too, I did testing for a while. In clearing line you can be shocked if a limb gets across phases or to neutral . We had tested gloves and protectors too but only came out for emergency or where the chance of exposure was great like storm damage. I watched many linemen glove lines and a few of the old timers did so off poles but some of them did not live to tell about it. I could not imagine gloving off a pole out of a bucket yeah I could do it. I had a serviceman that gave me many hours overtime and like to hand me the hot stick to re-fuse on tall poles in the wind I seemed to be good at it!


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

millbilly said:


> like I stated from the beging your service drop is 110. now if you want to show me how much you really know what would the voltage be at the meter if your service loop was 385 feet and you were using 6 gauge copper wire. assuming the voltage was 115volts at the tap.


 
I have never hooked up a 385ft service loop its just to far to push sec, guage wire is what u use for welding leads and car bats. Assuming the voltage was 115 we would allready be on the very bottom of the curve as the standerd is 123 at the trans. Now for ur ques all you would see is very little line loss because u have given me no load we talking 100 a load or 200 a if there is no load there no problem to figure out and 385 ft would take like 500 mcm copper and 480v to be effective at that distance. So smoth ur feathers down and know this when we look at services we refere to them as a 240 serv or a 480 serv its allways phase to phase voltage and how u get phase to phase voltage is phase to ground times 1.73. We can pick this up tomarow. James


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## nba123 (Jan 12, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah our buckets were hypot tested too, I did testing for a while. In clearing line you can be shocked if a limb gets across phases or to neutral . We had tested gloves and protectors too but only came out for emergency or where the chance of exposure was great like storm damage. I watched many linemen glove lines and a few of the old timers did so off poles but some of them did not live to tell about it. I could not imagine gloving off a pole out of a bucket yeah I could do it. I had a serviceman that gave me many hours overtime and like to hand me the hot stick to re-fuse on tall poles in the wind I seemed to be good at it!


 
We still glove 4kv of pole under my contract, but do so as little as poss. It was good talking with you.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> I got in my lineman books It take 1 tenth of 1 volt for 1 sec in any voltage to kill. The 1 second part is because that is how long it takes for musle contraction. Ohms is resistance and your bodys is about the same as water. I cant posibly rember all of it to many books to many years. Rope thanks for posting that u got me off my but and into the books. James


 
That's why we call him 'Rope'!
Jeff


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## ropensaddle (Jan 12, 2011)

nba123 said:


> We still glove 4kv of pole under my contract, but do so as little as poss. It was good talking with you.


 
It was good talking with you as well, I bet you test them gloves regular if gloving off the pole, anyway stay safe friend. I know a little of the lines man side, very little and a lot on the line clearance side


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

Ok guys I am getting some flak about my ohms being the killer deal. I will try to explain my meaning and please understand I am simplistic. Since this subject is line clearance and the known voltage and amperage is well above the 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc known to kill a human.

I will explain by example what I am meaning as ohms is killer! Example one we have a climber with high tie in, he is standing on a limb above a burning "close in line clearance terminology" limb. He is using a kiln dried, dry ash pole pruner tested to infinite ohms, as most safety gear is for power line work. He is clearing the close twigs to obtain enough clearance to rope the limb clear. He clips one twig that makes contact with primary but feels nothing.
Next example he is in same situation but is using a aluminum silky pole saw what, besides stupidity, just made the difference and killed this climber?

With distribution lines the example is consistent with my point but as voltage and amperage increases like on 500kv lines humid air etc can reduce resistance, so all factors come into play it is just resistance to me is the buffering factor.


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## nba123 (Jan 13, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Ok guys I am getting some flak about my ohms being the killer deal. I will try to explain my meaning and please understand I am simplistic. Since this subject is line clearance and the known voltage and amperage is well above the 1/10 of one amp in 12vdc known to kill a human.
> 
> I will explain by example what I am meaning as ohms is killer! Example one we have a climber with high tie in, he is standing on a limb above a burning "close in line clearance terminology" limb. He is using a kiln dried, dry ash pole pruner tested to infinite ohms, as most safety gear is for power line work. He is clearing the close twigs to obtain enough clearance to rope the limb clear. He clips one twig that makes contact with primary but feels nothing.
> Next example he is in same situation but is using a aluminum silky pole saw what, besides stupidity, just made the difference and killed this climber?
> ...


 


Enough talk about powerlines whats wrong with that 200t.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 13, 2011)

nba123 said:


> Enough talk about powerlines whats wrong with that 200t.


 
Hey .. think Rope threw his 200T in pile behind garage :thinking:

But .. enough talk about powerlines.. for that matter lets get this snow melted and get some tree work done.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

nba123 said:


> Enough talk about powerlines whats wrong with that 200t.


 
It is a manufacturing dilemma and engineering mishap


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 13, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It is a manufacturing dilemma and engineering mishap


 
 Can we quote you on that !


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Hey .. think Rope threw his 200T in garbage pile :thinking:
> 
> But .. enough talk about powerlines.. for that matter lets get this snow melted and get some tree work to do.


 
Fixed it fer ya:angel:


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Can we quote you on that !


 
Sure and add overpriced and hyped rubix cube that's well marketed


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## nba123 (Jan 13, 2011)

Rope do u not like the 200t. That supprizes me. How much for it I need anouther.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 13, 2011)

nba123 said:


> Rope do u not like the 200t. That supprizes me. How much for it I need anouther.


 
Lol I will have to repair it before selling it. I liked it when it ran right but that was short lived. Its in a gazillion pieces right now and if I make a little extra dollars will probably get it going again. I wish they were priced right 600 for a 8 month saw is too high. I also wish flippy's were optional


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## nba123 (Jan 13, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol I will have to repair it before selling it. I liked it when it ran right but that was short lived. Its in a gazillion pieces right now and if I make a little extra dollars will probably get it going again. I wish they were priced right 600 for a 8 month saw is too high. I also wish flippy's were optional


 
What kind of parts you looking for. I run 3 of them so none of them get a whole lot of time but 8months sounds pretty short. But then again I have a 08 395 that only made it 2 weeks, they dont last long if u dont move them out of the trucks way. Let ur brandnew 395 get ran over. I almost teared up.


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## squad143 (Jan 13, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> lets get this snow melted and get some tree work done.


 
To hell with that..... I have a (new to me) sled and want to use it. Besides, I need a couple of months for the body to recoup before climbing again.



As to the power question, you're all wrong...... its being grounded that kills you.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 14, 2011)

squad143 said:


> To hell with that..... I have a (new to me) sled and want to use it. Besides, I need a couple of months for the body to recoup before climbing again.



Ok.. how is a couple more weeks  Beginning of Feb .. is that compromise enough.




squad143 said:


> ...... its being grounded that kills you.:


 
Well one way to look at it.. mind you I can take you to a transformer station (actually any of them).. and get you pretty warm even if you are not touching ground.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

squad143 said:


> As to the power question, you're all wrong...... its being grounded that kills you.:hmm3grin2orange:


See in a round about way thats ohmsoke:


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Ok.. how is a couple more weeks  Beginning of Feb .. is that compromise enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Lol started work each mourning at the sub station 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0


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## ropensaddle (Jan 14, 2011)

Shweet


YouTube - Electric power lineman


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## squad143 (Jan 14, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> Shweet
> 
> 
> YouTube - Electric power lineman


 
Saw that awhile ago... man, I love that clip.


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## TreeClimber57 (Jan 14, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> See in a round about way thats ohmsoke:


 
Tis so


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## pdqdl (Jan 17, 2011)

ropensaddle said:


> It is in my safety materials 1/10 in 12vdc not saying yours is not right too but I tested on this rule. No matter it is very little voltage ohms is what kills you imho.


 
Amps do the killing.
Volts are what pushes the amps through your bod.
Ohms is what protects you from the volts & amps.

Sooo...I gotta disagree rope. Ohms is NOT what kills, it's not having enough of them that will kill you, given some exposure to the volts and the amps.

A little high school physics: V=IR
where V is volts, I is the amperage, and R is ohms resistance. When Voltage is very high, in order to keep the electrocuting current very low, you need almost infinite resistance. 

(more on that in the next post)


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## pdqdl (Jan 17, 2011)

millbilly said:


> like I stated from the beging your service drop is 110. now if you want to show me how much you really know what would the voltage be at the meter if your service loop was 385 feet and you were using 6 gauge copper wire. assuming the voltage was 115volts at the tap.


 
The best electrician in the world cannot answer that question. Here is why:

Voltage across a conductor changes according to the amperage traveling down the wire. If you hooked up the 385' wire to the pole (115v) and put a voltmeter across the terminals, you would get 115 volts (using your numbers) at the end of the wire just like you do at the pole.

Now hook up a 200 amp service to that wire, and run a stove, a 5 hp air compressor, a welder, and all the lights in the building. The electric current traveling down the wire has gone from nothing to 200 amps. Measured voltage at the meter will go down according to the resistance of the wire AND the current traveling on the wire. 

Knowing only the length and gauge of the wire is not enough.


BTW: in other posts you keep referring to 110v on a common line drop. Many years ago, I think household current was commonly 110 volts. I'm pretty sure that it is almost standardized at 120v in the USA.

There are TWO hot wires coming into the house, each carrying 120v. Since this is AC (alternating current), each of the wires is carrying 120v to ground. HOWEVER! You need to understand that each of the two hot wires has an opposite polarity from the other. The voltage in an opposite direction, so one wire is pushing voltage (-) while the other is pulling (+), so the two voltages add up to 240v. Then they reverse polarity, and the current changes direction. 60 times per second!

In your house, most appliances are hooked up to just one hot wire and the neutral, so you only get 120v. The stove, the air conditioning unit, and other bigger appliances need more electricity, so they get it by connecting to both hot wires and running on the 240 volts between the two hot wires.

You can see this best on your stove: it is wired 240, but the oven light and the clock run on just 120 volts. These little devices don't need much electricity, so they are only attached to one leg of the electric service to the stove. If you detach the neutral, the stove will still heat up, but the light bulb and clock won't come on. (probably not true for modern electronically controlled stoves)


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## kharman (Oct 20, 2011)

trailduster2 said:


> Up here in Colorado I work for a line clearing company. Our standards are, there must be no less than 5 feet off center. Meaning a total of 10 feet clearance. 5 on eather side of the line. Ground to sky. Nothing under the line and nothing above the line. Storms can play havic on the lines and when thay get to swinging in the wind along with the trees things can get zapped and then you have some real issues. This to dependes on the line voltage that is going up. Most of the lines that run a house is below .725 kv - and 15 kv. the triplex that runes to the house from the meter pole is around a 220v. this line require a total clearance of 18 inches. Hope this helps just remember that this could vary from state to state.


 
Trailduster: If you don't mind sharing, what line clearance company do you work for? I am doing a research report on vegetation management and am looking for company names nationwide.


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## ropensaddle (Oct 20, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> Amps do the killing.
> Volts are what pushes the amps through your bod.
> Ohms is what protects you from the volts & amps.
> 
> ...


 
Ok lol I just seen this I said ohms or lack of somewhere in this topic.A clean dry insulated pruner is infinite ohms and has saved my skin in several occasions. The whole point I am making about ohms is; unless its high enough potential to jump like 500 kv, ohms determine the contact. So if you do not contact the source or if contact is infinite ohms, your not killed or even energized. It don't matter about any other factor in normal distribution. In transmission it will jump out and contact you! It will on distribution if your breaking minimum separation rules but the distance is considerably less.

Staying out of the path of least resistance has also saved my Hyde removing burning overhang. Ohms or lack of determine fatal contact because if you have enough space or make contact with infinite resistance (measured in ohms) it don't matter if its a million volts and 300k amps you did not touch or get close enough to be touched


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