# Spliced Eye



## spin101 (Mar 4, 2006)

Can anyone tell me the strength of a spliced Eye from the factory in a 1/2" rope. Maybe i don't know where to look but i can't seen to find it anywhere.


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## skwerl (Mar 4, 2006)

The splice strength will typically be 95%-125% of the rope strength. The splice will NOT be the weak link. 

If it's a lifeline and you're buying from Sherrill, you might wish to consider requesting a 'tight eye' instead of the standard large eye. The tight eye is just big enough for a carabiner to squeeze through. This eliminates the need to girth hitch the carabiner and it eliminates slop and bulk at the connection point. 

Just specify a 'tight eye' when ordering. It's the same price.

It looks like this:


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## spin101 (Mar 5, 2006)

I believe the eye i have now on my climbing line is a 5". Considerably larger than the tight eye that you have shown. I wish i knew this before i ordered my line, i guess you live and learn. Would it be safe to use this for now if kept in good condition?


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

spin101 said:


> Can anyone tell me the strength of a spliced Eye from the factory in a 1/2" rope. Maybe i don't know where to look but i can't seen to find it anywhere.





Most splices done properly are 90-95% efficient.
dont know that Id say up to 125% though, how can that even be possible?


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> It may be because there is more rope in the spliced part of the rope.
> 
> Quite often in break testing the rope does not break at the splice. This means the splice is stronger than the rope.
> 
> I've also read that in testing some knots that the rope does not break at the knot like is commonly believed.



I realize there is more fiber in the splice but I'd like to see ANY documentation that says a splice is over 100% efficient, I just dont believe its out there.

I do agree the rope is more likely to fail elsewhere than the splice area, but technically, a splice is a bend(an eye splice), and any bend in a line will reduce its efficiency, by some amount.


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

Are you suggesting that an eye splice *IS* stronger than the rope rating itself?

Regardless of where it may actually break, Id like to see ANY rope manufacturer get behind that line of thought.

Like I said, a splice is a bend, there is some strength loss in it.



Regarding the size of the splice, as skwerl alluded to, Yale cordage has done testing and found that the larger splices which need to be girthed over tested weaker than tight eyes, most likely due to the bend and choking in the girth.


No Dan I do not "agree" that a splice must be stronger than 100% of the rope's strength, even if it is more likely to break else where.


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## clearance (Mar 5, 2006)

You guys are funny, life lines are 10-1 for safety, 90%-125% who cares how much at 6k ultimate, me, I just tie a bowline.


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree clearance...

in a climbing system our saftey factors make the point kind of moot. 


I havent climbed with a bowline in my system in near 10 years, not even on Sundays.


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## spin101 (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks guys for the feed back. You all have been very helpful in getting me started in the right direction, and the view points brought up in conflicting discussions goes into depth farther than any internship i could work would. 
thanks again guys


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## jmack (Mar 5, 2006)

*girth*



spin101 said:


> I believe the eye i have now on my climbing line is a 5". Considerably larger than the tight eye that you have shown. I wish i knew this before i ordered my line, i guess you live and learn. Would it be safe to use this for now if kept in good condition?


yeah that one is for girth hitches, its not safe send it to me right away so i can analyze then destroy it, just kiddin, its safe try running the girth hitch with a swivel snap until ya get yer new one


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 5, 2006)

One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute...will be that all body support rope terminations will be cinch-type connections. This means that loops won't be allowed on biners or captured eyes.

There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath. 

The solution for this, and any other large eye, is to seize or whip the eye down to an acceptable size to keep the biner from sliding around. 

Using spliced eyes makes for a nice tidy climbing setup. Less bulk and it eliminates a knot that has to be tied, dressed and set everytime it's used. 

There are instructions for making one kind of seizing here:

http://www.sailingservices.com/running_rig/splicing/stasetx_pcru_eye_spl.htm


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## okietreedude1 (Mar 5, 2006)

Tom Dunlap said:


> One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute...will be that all body support rope terminations will be cinch-type connections. This means that loops won't be allowed on biners or captured eyes.




So I guess this means no more bowlines??????

That will make the TCCs more interesting to see how many rookie climbers know how to tie the dbl fishermans style knot. Ive seen veteran climbers that tie it wrong.

I think thats a poor decision by the ANSI committee.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 5, 2006)

David,

You're right about people being able to tie a cinch type knot. There are other solutions to the issue besides tight eyes or scaffold hitches though.

The Z133 was available for public comment for a long time. I don're recall ever reading any opposition to this issue though.


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## coydog (Mar 5, 2006)

Does the core pass or part of it pass through the splice loop for the tight eyes or is it only the jacket, I ask this because I know a climber that does spliced eye terminations in his sixteen strand and doesn't incorporate the core into the splice. I've expressed my reservations but he swears it's the correct way to do it.


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## skwerl (Mar 5, 2006)

Here's the Samson instructions. I was going to post the New England instructions but they are virtually identical and in a different format, too large of a file to upload. 

You can also go to the rope manufacturer's websites and poke around for the splicing instructions.


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

coydog said:


> Does the core pass or part of it pass through the splice loop for the tight eyes or is it only the jacket, I ask this because I know a climber that does spliced eye terminations in his sixteen strand and doesn't incorporate the core into the splice. I've expressed my reservations but he swears it's the correct way to do it.




Id say he is correct,in 16 strand climbing line there is no core inside the eye.


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## clearance (Mar 5, 2006)

Here only workers compensation board certified splicers are allowed to splice lifelines of any kind. Must be a reason for that, maybe important it is done properly, but who knows.


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## tophopper (Mar 5, 2006)

I prefer splicing my own.

and its very important its done right.


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## okietreedude1 (Mar 5, 2006)

Coy,

its just the cover that makes up the eye. 

If you buy a Yale 16st that is spliced at the yale factory, they do a mechanical assisted splice that is cover and core together. Impossible to do without mechanical assistance.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 6, 2006)

tophopper said:


> Like I said, a splice is a bend, there is some strength loss in it.



In flat (Tenex etc.) or flattened (core removed around eye of 16 strand) there is minimal leverageable dimension on the bend; therefore minimized strength loss. Leveraging the force against the line takes the same as any other leveraging; stiffness to resist the bend and length dimension to multiply that stiffness(then in nonflexible things like steel beam, multiply length from input force to bend too; but not in ropes). The flat / non-round rope eyes are like flat rope/webbing in that they offer minimum resistance to the bend; and being flat minimum- Zer0 multiplier of that stiffness; therefore the eyes are not leveraged against as in round line. So, we have 2 legs of support, with minimum, minimum loss at the bend; in a flat eye.

The round line device, that maintains it's roundness on the bend will have equal leveraging against a bend in any direction; for being round (having same diameter/axis from any direction) the bent axis/dimension will always be the same in above explanation. Therefore, some say round is the unleverageable shape; which isn't really true; just equally leveraged shape from any angle through it.

Flat, will have a favorable dimension to bend, that gives about no leverageable dimension on bending on 1 premium axis in either direction. But, scrunching flat webbing across long dimension will give higher multiplier in Leveraging = Stiffness (resistance to bend) X Bent Dimension formula. So flat, will have a favorable direction/axis to bend on, and unfavorable axises too. For only round gives equal leverage against line from all directions/axises.

In hollow round line that will lay flat; this is not a problem, for the line will flatten on any axis, unlike webbing. Line is round to give easier knotting and unknotting, predictable leveraging on bend, and easier working around bend; not because it is stronger than webbing etc. The weakness in webbing/flat rope is in the handling/knotting ease and working around a bend(can get tore up easier by more friction on device/line/webbing); but sitting still on a bend doesn't do this; so flat is favorable for sitting still on bend. Thus, i favor 3/8" Tenex 5k cords, for the strength, and minimal strength loss on the tight 1/2" bend around a host line.



My understanding of the new regulations Tom has been trying to let us know about for quite some time (click-link). Bowlines on a snap are okay, cuz the round eye lets the loading correctly orientate, whereby the squarish shape of a krab offers corners that could hang that self adjustmeant up. Even though a krab and snap are both really single leg/ moused hook design that loading should be along back spine only, the bowline goes on snap and not krab.


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## jmack (Mar 6, 2006)

*screwed*



Tom Dunlap said:


> One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute...will be that all body support rope terminations will be cinch-type connections. This means that loops won't be allowed on biners or captured eyes.
> 
> There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath.
> 
> ...


 so the ropes i just ordered with 5inch eyes are gonna be illegal?


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## tophopper (Mar 6, 2006)

Sounds like it to me.


Maybe they'll have a grace period


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## jmack (Mar 6, 2006)

*thanks*



TreeCo said:


> Using a girth hitch will make them legal.


very cool, thankyou gentleman got the 7/16 husky prolite coming ... and custom spliced with a 5in eye


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 6, 2006)

The more the girth forces the eye to tourque/ twists hard; the more compormised the strength IMLHO; also the easier for krab to move around, especially unloaded.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 6, 2006)

jmack,

I wrote this:

There are some ropes that a tight eye doesn't seem to work well on. The Velocity family doesn't take a tight eye without hemorrhaging the core through the sheath.

The solution for this, and any other large eye, is to seize or whip the eye down to an acceptable size to keep the biner from sliding around. 
******

A girth hitch or seizing will make a tight eye. Corner traps can sometimes keep the rope in the end of the biner. 

There won't be any grace period. Like poker, what's laid is played.


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## 046 (Mar 6, 2006)

call me untrusting, but I don't like spliced eyes. 

much rather trust what I tied my self, for I know it was done right. prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known. 

seems this already meets new ansi rules...


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## clearance (Mar 6, 2006)

046 said:


> call me untrusting, but I don't like spliced eyes.
> 
> much rather trust what I tied my self, for I know it was done right. prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known.


Carefull 046, you are not toeing the line, me too, I like the hand tied method, it works well. I guess it you have the non-pc eye rope you could just get out the old Buck knife and cut the eye off, remember how to tie?


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## jmack (Mar 7, 2006)

*thankyou*



Tom Dunlap said:


> jmack,
> 
> I wrote this:
> 
> ...


 tom thanks for the clarification, i'm liking the girth hitch


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 7, 2006)

clearance said:


> Carefull 046, you are not toeing the line, me too, I like the hand tied method, it works well. I guess it you have the non-pc eye rope you could just get out the old Buck knife and cut the eye off, remember how to tie?



Nothing PC, it has to do with changesin :"One of the changes in the 2006 version of the ANSI Z133...AMERICAN National Standards Institute..."

Careful reading of what is posted at the beginning of most threads will give you an education. 

What happens in BC isn't governed by ANSI. oh, do you realize that it stands for:

AMERICAN National Standards Institute
AMERICAN National Standards Institute
AMERICAN National Standards Institute 

Just having some funs with my cousin in BC


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## spin101 (Mar 9, 2006)

So running a biner through my eye and looping it around a crotch and latching the biner back to the rope itself creating a choker effect would be safe for a single climbing line?


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 9, 2006)

Spin,

Doing that will, most times, load the biner wrong. Biners are designed to have the load supported by the ends. Choking a biner will make it bend and have sideloads on the gate and spine. You could get buy with this for a long time but sooner or later it will damage the biner...do you want to climb on a bent biner?

A better solution is to tie some kind of eye hitch and choke that against the tree. A running bowline with a back up is preferred by some climbers. A butterfly knot works well too. Make sure that what ever you use, leave a LONG tail. this helps to reduce the chance of the knot/hitch rolling out and failing.


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## 046 (Mar 9, 2006)

please note girth hitch may reduce strength by a significant percentage. debatable on how much. some say 30%

here's pull test data by black diamond 

http://www.climerware.com/knot5.htm

a few good knots..
http://www.cave.org.vt.edu/knots.shtml


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## spin101 (Mar 9, 2006)

That makes alot more sense. Thanks alot guys.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 10, 2006)

i think the visual appearance of the gate of krab is miss-leading to the eye. To me, a krab is a well moused hook. A clevis or screwlink is a real 2 leg device; a krab has a gate held by 2 pins, that are pulled perpendicular to their maximum inline strength. Therefore the thin pins are pulled at their weakest angle of support; the pins are pulled across their short axis, incurring the leverage of the longest axis against themselves (pins).

A hook or krab to me, is best visualized as a single straight rod, with eye on each end to link to. This would always maintain inline pull down the 'spine' of the device. The openness of the hook or krab; only a convention for easier and quicker loading and unloading. But, the force should always be conducted directly as possible, inline down the long axis/spine of real support, so i keep the imagery of the rod with an eye on each end, and load like that.

As you conduct a flow of force down 1 axis, you always leverage against the perpendicular or 'cross' axis. So we conduct down the long axis, so to as only leverage against the device with the lowest multiplier of the minimal/ narrowest cross axis. If we conduct down the narrowest axis (in rectangle etc.), we then leverage the largest multiplier of the longer axis against the device; causing it to fail, much, much sooner.

Also, even if we carry force down the longest axis, if we drift from inline with the long axis (towards gate or open side of hook) we also leverage against the spine, and carry more force on the open or gate side.


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## pantheraba (Mar 10, 2006)

046 said:


> prefer a triple fisherman, possibly the most secure bend known.
> 
> seems this already meets new ansi rules...



Here is my question about what you showed...I have been experimenting with using siezing/whipping after a double or triple fisherman's knot/bend/whatever.

To me one of the desirable aspects of the fisherman is that it should tighten down on the biner so that it does not slide around like a bowline. But...if you tie/sieze/whip it you negate the tightening effect of the knot...it cannot slide anymore.

What is the key? Just have a real tight eye when you tie on the siezing?

In my experience the eye loosens up some as the knot sets.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 10, 2006)

Tie, dress and set the knot. Then climb on it for a few days. This will snug down the eye. Massage the knot a bit to work out the slack. You should then be able to seize the tails and not have the eye open up.

Or...







just use...






a 3M seizing...








electrical tape


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## okietreedude1 (Mar 10, 2006)

I tied a dbl fish today for the first time as an attachment knot and will say I wish I had given imput on the ansi standard.

I climb w/ a captive eye biner and after the climb, the knot was kind of hard to untie. I know after several climbs, the knot will just about be set in stone.

When its time to bust out a new rope, Im thinking of going w/ an eye. I dont really like isolating one end of the rope and not being able to switch it, but at least I wont periodically have to cut off the knot because it got to dam tight to untie.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 10, 2006)

David,

There are other cinch-type knots that will work. DFH isn't the only one.


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## woodchux (Mar 10, 2006)

I had to cut the eye off of my new life line.

Nicked it 30' from the eye, when i was pulling up the pole saw.

Oh well... now i have an excuse to buy more toys.......I mean tools.


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## 046 (Mar 11, 2006)

pantheraba said:


> Here is my question about what you showed...I have been experimenting with using siezing/whipping after a double or triple fisherman's knot/bend/whatever.
> 
> To me one of the desirable aspects of the fisherman is that it should tighten down on the biner so that it does not slide around like a bowline. But...if you tie/sieze/whip it you negate the tightening effect of the knot...it cannot slide anymore.
> 
> ...


whipping has no effect upon triple fisherman cinching up when tied as in pic above. 

been using this setup long before ANSI Z133. above picture of knot is at end of Tom's DEDA. normally only use triple fisherman to terminate knots that will not be untied. ideal for a split-tail (pic below) 

if you are using Spectra, triple fisherman is the only knot you should terminate with. 

(disclaimer: please don't use internet as your only source of information to trust you life with. find an experienced instructor)

"The double fisherman's bend (or grapevine knot) is a very secure knot that can be used to bend two similar pieces of rope. It is prone to jamming with heavy loads and can be difficult to remove. With three turns on each overhand, it is called a triple fisherman's bend or barrel knot. The triple fisherman's bend is as strong as the rope and is the only bend that should be used with Spectra[SP96, p52]."

http://www.cave.org.vt.edu/knots.shtml#SECTION00011400000000000000


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## SamsonMD (May 24, 2006)

okietreedude1 said:


> When its time to bust out a new rope, Im thinking of going w/ an eye. I dont really like isolating one end of the rope and not being able to switch it, but at least I wont periodically have to cut off the knot because it got to dam tight to untie.



Okietreedude,
You can splice both ends of the Arbormaster 16 strand line from Samson.


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