# Safe Falling of rotting Ash



## Boot Jack (Jan 10, 2022)

I have been unable to keep up with all the dead Ash ( I probably have 1000) on my farm yet I still cut firewood every year. Those familiar w/ ash know that the bole (base) begins to dry rot fairly quickly. I want to fell these trees and salvage what I can...but how to do it SAFELY? In the past I pretty much just went for it, wedged the best I could and if that failed, hand winched it over with a long cable. Is there a correct way or are there better alternatives?


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## Mad Professor (Jan 10, 2022)

I'll be watching this thread. I have same issues. 

Most of my ash are in the canopy and I'd rather let them fall on their own, than have the dead branches/widow makers strike me down. If I get them when they first die, I'll drop them and try to salvage the bottoms for lumber, and cordwood for the rest.


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## Brufab (Jan 10, 2022)

Yea dead ash is scary, I live in michigan so I know all about it and the eab. I see alot of them like to break 10-20'from the base. Being hard as steel makes the hinge near impossible and have had them do some squirrely stuff.


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## woodfarmer (Jan 10, 2022)

I’ve been cutting them for the last four years. I’m down to most under 12” dbh now but they can still be very dangerous.
I just fell them like any other tree, but I also have a tractor and winch to take down the hung up ones.


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## sand sock (Jan 10, 2022)

I cut them as fast as i can cut and split them. I drop them like any other tree, not a big deal . if the tree had the top snapped out. You have 1 year to get it cut, before its to rotted. 
You have 2-3 years if there is any coarse branch structure. 
If you have any fine branch structures left. This is your danger trees. Its not uncommon when the tree starts moving forward . you get all this trash blowing out the backside movement. Watch the canopy, try to walk away. But if its going to rain trash. You might have to walk in a different direction or stay close to the trunk.


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## Brufab (Jan 10, 2022)

Any dead ash that is over 6" I always have a spotter while felling. I have had the top break and go backwards or get catapulted maybe 10-25' past where it would of landed.


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## rwoods (Jan 10, 2022)

Boot Jack said:


> I have been unable to keep up with all the dead Ash ( I probably have 1000) on my farm yet I still cut firewood every year. Those familiar w/ ash know that the bole (base) begins to dry rot fairly quickly. I want to fell these trees and salvage what I can...but how to do it SAFELY? In the past I pretty much just went for it, wedged the best I could and if that failed, hand winched it over with a long cable. Is there a correct way or are there better alternatives?



No stock answer to your question beyond every tree may kill you, especially dead ash. My dead ash tactics are to make sure you have a clear overhead where you stand, the clearest falling direction as possible, cut them quick, and run - don't look back - keep putting as much distance as you can from the stump - it is amazing how far stuff will travel through the air. If you can leave the crusty ones to nature, then leave them.

I recently cut this one with the lean. First movement and the top (in the foreground) broke off about 15' up; it landed just feet from the stump leaving a stem that I had to wedge over. 




Ron


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## Brufab (Jan 10, 2022)

Wow! thats a great example of what I was saying a few posts up in the thread. Thanks for the pic and sweet saw in the background!


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## Reesedlightning (Jan 10, 2022)

Living in northern VA and MD, where we got hit real hard with the ash bore, it’s become the most common tree I fell. Probably about 90% of what I cut is ash. 
If I can get a rope in it, that’s first priority. Even if it ends up breaking and only pulling the canopy off, that leaves me with less hazard to deal with while finishing it off. If I can’t get a rope in it, I’ll cut like any other but make my notch just a little deeper to encourage the hinge more (unless it’s a leaner), and then move with purpose when doing the back cut. I don’t like to spend too much time on the back side of those if I don’t have to. Always wear a hard hat. I have found that the little ones are the most unpredictable, but the easiest to coax with a rope or winch cable.


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## ATH (Jan 10, 2022)

Question 1: does it need to come out? If not, let it be. Focus on the trees that can hit something (someone) if it falls. Of you have a really hairy one, route trails around it until it comes down.


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## Boot Jack (Jan 11, 2022)

Good replies. I do use a spotter on the larger trees and always clear an escape route. I'll use a spotter now on all marginal ash. Hard hat a given. "Getting a rope in it" I'm guessing means a line as high as I can before I cut...something I don't do unless I have a bad lean. I may start using my snatch block to avoid the kill zone when tensioning winch. Will go deeper w/ undercut and get after the back cut. Plan on doing some major felling in the next 2 weeks now that things are frozen. Hope I survive to report back.


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## davidprivett (Jan 11, 2022)

I assume that I am not the only one who does this, I notch and back cut but leave a little and walk away and let the next good wind finish the job so I am away from the bad ones. I have had it where I just sat down with a cold one and I heard the thump in the wood stand well away from me.


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## CJ1 (Jan 11, 2022)

It 100% depends on the situation. If the tree has been dead for awhile and the branches are caught up in other trees, then I will use a piece of equipment and "preload" the tree by standing the equipment's front wheels off the ground by a foot or so. The weight of the equipment "pushes" the tree the first 5 feet or so down. I use a pre cleared path to get out of the falling debris area. If I can't get equipment to it I will use a throw line and 2 ropes with pullys or come alongs. When the tree starts to go I use the same pre cleared path. Preparation!!!!! is the key. CJ


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## kenmbz (Jan 11, 2022)

I only have about a dozen Dead Ash left, some I will let drop.
Many have barberchaired or done other nasty moves while falling.
I make sure I am on my way at first sign of cracking and patiently wait for the fall if I can.
They drop chunks in multiple directions, not fun!.


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## Wow (Jan 11, 2022)

Dead Trees scare me a little bit.. If it's small and if the tree allows me to do it, there are times I do a snap cut. That is dangerous but if I can make a Straight 180 degree no angle, just a straight cut as if I'm going to saw through the tree for my face cut and wedge it open enough to get my saw past half way through without the bar pinching then I remove the wedge and do my back cut straight into the tree, just a few inches higher (this depends upon the size of the tree and if it's dead or not) I'll wedge that cut as I go deeper into the cut..Once i get it cut deep enough that the two cuts over lap, if wedged right the tree snaps off and is guided only by the back wedges and the small overlap of the two cuts so it could go any direction if not done right.. I'm not recommending this type of cut to anyone because it's dangerous and is a learned behavior. There are times it's a good idea but not often..I don't snap cut big trees but little trees can at times be snap cut and hand pushed over..They just snap off and go where they are pushed.. All tree work is dangerous so I never advise but will tell how I do things..Some guy just a few miles from here was killed watching someone else drop a tree. That's a dumb way to go...I was taught to retreat 45% from the stump and that's what I taught my grandson...Years ago I saw a Sign that read. "Complacency Kills". It was hanging in a Shop.
At 75 I've had some close calls over the years..I almost got killed at 69 when a big limb about 180 pounds grazed me while in a tree..My history of boxing, some martial arts, and the quick reflexes of dodging and ducking and defending myself allowed me to react quickly and deflect it as it grazed past my left ear instead of banging my head against the tree...Fortunately due to being in good shape all thes years, I've survived what most 69 year old guys wouldn't..That close call convinced me to stop climbing. My grandson was on the ground using a rope to lower limbs and somehow that one got away from him..If It had killed me the poor kid would have blamed himself for the rest of his life..I've got some trees here on the farm that need topped but, well.. no, it's not gonna happen in my life time...Old men and old saws both eventually have to stop working as hard as they did when they were not so old.... GOOD luck with those trees..


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## Tigwelder83 (Jan 11, 2022)

Did that very thing on 4 ash next to a ball field today. Don't try to force them against their lean, definatly don't try to force them threw alot of canopy. Plan an escape route, and stay safe!


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## bck (Jan 11, 2022)

Big shot 
Rope 
Come-along 
Even hinge 
They’ll go anywhere you want them


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## bck (Jan 11, 2022)

And a hard hat!


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## rwoods (Jan 11, 2022)

bck said:


> Big shot
> Rope
> Come-along
> Even hinge
> *They’ll go anywhere you want them*


Some only a piece at a time. Ron


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## cookies (Jan 11, 2022)

with 1,000 trees i'd lean towards using a full sized excavator or a D9 bulldozer and start pushing them down or even cutting wide fire breaks into 1/4 acre sections and burning them out.


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## rwoods (Jan 11, 2022)

Be careful, especially pushing with a dozer, as it is easy to put one or parts of one in your lap.

Ron


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## Boot Jack (Jan 12, 2022)

Most are in a swamp. I'm lucky to get my ATV and trailer in/out. I took my 4WD tractor in there once. It was almost a one way trip. You know how it is...just had to try.
rwoods : What is a "Big shot"?


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## uniballer (Jan 12, 2022)

click to see Big Shot "slingshot"


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## Backstage (Jan 12, 2022)

Tigwelder83 said:


> Don't try to force them against their lean, definatly don't try to force them threw alot of canopy. Plan an escape route, and stay safe!


Besides using a winch or some other kind of pull line, that’s about the sum of what you can do. Dead ash is about 95% of what I’ve taken from vertical. Misreading the lean is by far the biggest preventable danger.


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## Cliff R (Jan 13, 2022)

I've taken down at least 100 to date and had issues with 2 of them. One was pretty big, about 30" at the base and leaning some. So leaning and "punky", which is a very dangerous combination. It "barber chaired" and sent us running for our lives! The other simply didn't have adequate hold wood being rotten close to the bottom and got away from me. It ended up hanging up in another tree and I ended up winching it back till it fell to the ground. Oh, forgot to mention the limbs, pay careful attention to them and NEVER walk forward right after you fell one until you look up to see if any limbs got hung up in another tree and haven't made it to the ground yet. I was cutting one about a year ago, all went well, I stopped before moving forward to pick up my wedges and hatchet a good size limb came crashing down right where I was fixing to step! The delay was about 10 seconds, so I'm guessing it got hung up in something.

We're down to a handful left on my properties and I wished I would have taken them out before they got so "punky" and started dropping dead limbs. Several times we've made rounds thru the woods and found limbs across the same paths we drive on frequently. At this point you never know when one is coming down so be careful when venturing thru the woods especially if it's windy outside.

The pic below shows my grand daughter right after we finished building a bridge across a small creek. We worked on it for several hours that day. The very next day we went back and right where she is standing was a HUGE dead Ash limb clear across the trail. It was a scary reminder how dangerous those rotting Ash trees can be......


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## kenmbz (Jan 13, 2022)

I have also let one tree hit another to get the limbs to drop, when I could do it safely.
Like dominos.


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## WoodyGuy (Jan 13, 2022)

Been dealing with loads of dead ash the last three years ... first two years, Identified the trees with high grade logs, cut them, saw'd 'em, kiln dried 'em. Now I'm working with the non-sawmill-worthy trees, and it's been long enough that the tops are very very brittle. If there's a clear path for the top to travel down, I've been dropping them. If they have to fight their way through other tree tops, I leave 'em be - IMO just way to high of a chance for nasty chunks raining down. And I leave any leaning hard the wrong way ... pounding hard on a wedge is another way to break a branch loose at the top.

I also identify a nearby tree I can "hide" behind, make sure the path to that tree is absolutely clear, and head for that spot the second the tree starts to go. Years ago, Irwin post wrote one of the best articles in Sawmill and Woodlot magazine I've read on dropping trees ... and one thing in particular stuck with me. His comment was that when the tree starts to go, move quickly to the spot you chose to "hide", and *only* look up. There's an almost magnetic field that forces you to watch the tree go to the ground, but you got to resist it and look up and watch for shrapnel. The tree is gonna go where it's gonna go, and you watching it go to the ground ain't gonna change anything. It took me a while to make it a habit, but it's one of my good ones now. And as mentioned by others, it ain't over when the tree hits the ground ... *keep looking up* ... until you're sure everything coming down is down.

That article also got me dialed in on bore cutting, leaving a small chunk of holding wood, and clipping the holding wood to get the tree going. IMO, bore cutting gives me a second or two head start to my "hiding" spot - and those couple of seconds are invaluable regarding safety. Bore cutting also virtually eliminates the chance of barber chairing, and IMO is the best way to drop heavy leaners.

A hard hat, of course, is a must, and when working solo, I keep a two way radio with me - just before I drop a tree, I call in to the house with the expectation I'll be calling back in again in less then five minutes. Hope I never miss that second call in 

Be careful out there, folks, and be safe ....

Hagman


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## Raintree (Jan 13, 2022)

Very good chance an ash tree with a heavy lean will barber chair.


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## Mad Professor (Jan 13, 2022)

Boot Jack said:


> Most are in a swamp. I'm lucky to get my ATV and trailer in/out. I took my 4WD tractor in there once. It was almost a one way trip. You know how it is...just had to try.
> rwoods : What is a "Big shot"?


Wait until it's froze up solid to get tractor in there.

We had heavy rains this summer, in a field I'd mowed for years I got the tractor and rotary cutter stuck good. I was lucky I have a neighbor w/tractor and long logging chains to get it out.


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## thenne1713 (Jan 13, 2022)

Mad Professor said:


> Wait until it's froze up solid to get tractor in there.
> 
> We had heavy rains this summer, in a field I'd mowed for years I got the tractor and rotary cutter stuck good. I was lucky I have a neighbor w/tractor and long logging chains to get it out.


YUP, WINTER FREEZE can be your friend in swampy/wet areas


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## Dangerous (Jan 13, 2022)

Cliff R said:


> I've taken down at least 100 to date and had issues with 2 of them. One was pretty big, about 30" at the base and leaning some. So leaning and "punky", which is a very dangerous combination. It "barber chaired" and sent us running for our lives! The other simply didn't have adequate hold wood being rotten close to the bottom and got away from me. It ended up hanging up in another tree and I ended up winching it back till it fell to the ground. Oh, forgot to mention the limbs, pay careful attention to them and NEVER walk forward right after you fell one until you look up to see if any limbs got hung up in another tree and haven't made it to the ground yet. I was cutting one about a year ago, all went well, I stopped before moving forward to pick up my wedges and hatchet a good size limb came crashing down right where I was fixing to step! The delay was about 10 seconds, so I'm guessing it got hung up in something.
> 
> We're down to a handful left on my properties and I wished I would have taken them out before they got so "punky" and started dropping dead limbs. Several times we've made rounds thru the woods and found limbs across the same paths we drive on frequently. At this point you never know when one is coming down so be careful when venturing thru the woods especially if it's windy outside.
> 
> ...


Amateur here; I favor plunge Cuts to prevent Barber chairing


WoodyGuy said:


> Been dealing with loads of dead ash the last three years ... first two years, Identified the trees with high grade logs, cut them, saw'd 'em, kiln dried 'em. Now I'm working with the non-sawmill-worthy trees, and it's been long enough that the tops are very very brittle. If there's a clear path for the top to travel down, I've been dropping them. If they have to fight their way through other tree tops, I leave 'em be - IMO just way to high of a chance for nasty chunks raining down. And I leave any leaning hard the wrong way ... pounding hard on a wedge is another way to break a branch loose at the top.
> 
> I also identify a nearby tree I can "hide" behind, make sure the path to that tree is absolutely clear, and head for that spot the second the tree starts to go. Years ago, Irwin post wrote one of the best articles in Sawmill and Woodlot magazine I've read on dropping trees ... and one thing in particular stuck with me. His comment was that when the tree starts to go, move quickly to the spot you chose to "hide", and *only* look up. There's an almost magnetic field that forces you to watch the tree go to the ground, but you got to resist it and look up and watch for shrapnel. The tree is gonna go where it's gonna go, and you watching it go to the ground ain't gonna change anything. It took me a while to make it a habit, but it's one of my good ones now. And as mentioned by others, it ain't over when the tree hits the ground ... *keep looking up* ... until you're sure everything coming down is down.
> 
> ...


Amateur Here , my first tree was a maple that I thought was sound when the sawdust turner brown I first though the saw was burning the wood I stopped closely examined the brown sawdust and realized it was rot. 
Read up on what could happen barberchair and complete trunk collapse studies how to do a plunge cut or bore cut reduced the tension on the directional line to a minimum . 
Banged on the trunk to determine how bad the rot was . Generally sound used a bore cut to prevent BC and removed the holding wood .Dropped where expected.
Later I dropped a double trunked ash on a hill with a lean using the bore cut and Patience . Once you get into bore cutting it solves serious problems . I use wedges at the back end of the bore cut to prevent binding the blade if my back cut runs into the plastic wedges I consider it a cost of felling safety they are expendable; I’m not expendable.
BTW wacking the tree with a hammer to determine its soundness is a habit I learned the hard way . Hiding behind another tree I have discovered works .
Absolutely having and clearing at least two paths away from the falling tree are a must . Plunge cuts provide good outcomes sharp chains required.


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## gggGary (Jan 14, 2022)

Good timing on this thread! Thanks for all the insight. I've dropped about 8 ash, with a couple heavy leaners, with my first bore cuts that went well. As mentioned the wood is "brittle" had one I wanted to wedge back against a slight lean but the hinge snapped early. Got many more to go and the info here may have saved me injury. I have one in the woods that's huge, over 30" with a fair amount of dead up high. Will look at that with more caution now. Also going to push me to get others on the ground soon rather than waiting.


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## rwoods (Jan 14, 2022)

gggGary said:


> Good timing on this thread! Thanks for all the insight. I've dropped about 8 ash, with a couple heavy leaners with my first bore cuts, all but one went well. As mentioned the wood is "brittle" the hinge snapped early. got many more to go and the info here my have saved me injury. I have one in the woods that's huge, over 30" with a fair amount of dead up high. Will look at that with more caution now. *Also going to push me to get others on the ground soon rather than waiting.*


As with all dead or dying trees, the sooner the better.

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 14, 2022)

rwoods said:


> As with all dead or dying trees, the sooner the better.
> 
> Ron


Certain species with a side lean can be favourable to fall with less top weight when the tree is still in good structural shape. The stump may still be green as in many hardwoods or fast seasoned as in pine that feels much stronger plus as I mentioned the reduced top weight.
I'm sure we can all agree that not many things appy all of the time in this buisness


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 14, 2022)

For Ash that are likely going to go off 30%
( 12:05 on the clock) and you don't have the room then it may work to exaggerate the aim direction the other way knowing you will lose a certain degree.
Not an exact Science but can be helpful for mild ones and achieved with regular felling cuts.

You could try a block face undercut. (channel cut) It's a big improvement on other species over reg undercut.
I suspect some improvement.I fell some ash in the UK and had a few ash that I could have tried it on in the first day of felling them but didn't know the wood and they snapped off at 60%.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 14, 2022)

Can explain more tomorrow unless someone else wants to.
If you have good wedges and some good skills then you may be able to stand the tree up straight and then go about 14" higher and close to 90° from the first cut to your intended felling direction. Called a re-direct


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## woodfarmer (Jan 14, 2022)

A few wind blown bad boys


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## rwoods (Jan 14, 2022)

Wcf, you are correct. Absolutes are almost nonexistent with tree falling except gravity. Debated back and forth about saying “all”, but I didn’t know an exception for those of us that cut seasonally. Typically if I don’t cut it now a year goes by before I get to it. 
Over lunch I scouted out tomorrow’s project. Found it would included half dozen or more 24” to 30”+ dead ash. Also found more than that that I will let nature fall. Road is too steep and wet to use equipment so I doubt I will set any records tomorrow.

Tell us more about your two stage falling. Doesn’t sound like something to do on a dead ash - maybe a dying ash. I have done the 90 degree second cut many times when I misread a lean and stuck my saw.

As to a block face, when I think the wood is still strong and flexible enough, I have used a trapezoid face sometimes coupled with a vertical cut behind the hinge, all to define a taller hinge either to slow the fall or keep the hinge intact as long as possible. It doesn’t always work .

Ron


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## RichMidd (Jan 15, 2022)

While I was figuring what to do with this monster, utility trucks working on the lines in the background of this pic, created such ground vibration it came down on its own. The house shook- sounded like a nuke going off. I cut giant burls from the base of the trunk. I do a lot of bowl turning and one bowl measured 18” across.


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## Brufab (Jan 15, 2022)

Sweet pic and that's some scary business that vibration brought it down.


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## gggGary (Jan 15, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Sweet pic and that's some scary business that vibration brought it down.


Fer sher adds a ! to that beat up ole ash tree back in the woods. My guess was good, 30" DABH Good news it's leaning a good felling direction. bit more lean than the pic hints at, pines are vertical.


looked around and counted about 6-7 more 12" to 20" that need to come down yet. 4 here,


and 3-4 up on another fence line. Those are on neighbors property but leaning towards mine. Most are recent dead had leaves last summer.
No end of fun, well mebby when the temps are up near freezing again.
The good news is I got a 7K # skidsteer on snows for a pull or guide rope anchor .


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 15, 2022)

rwoods said:


> rwoods said:
> 
> 
> > Tell us more about your two stage falling. Doesn’t sound like something to do on a dead ash - maybe a dying ash. I have done the 90 degree second cut many times when I misread a lean and stuck my saw.
> ...


Didn't have Ash in BC or Alberta but have only cut them in South England.
They are also all dying fast from a top die-back disease.
Maybe cut 50-80 only and they were alive and dying ones where density was reduced by 1/3. 11ft lengths for that species for a forwarder. Challenging job not to make big holes but yet get trees down.

So I have used the re-direct method to mitigate a side lean on jobs such as utility lines & fall & burn.
It's got its place with the right tree conditions just as a block notch has and no it doesn't work all the time with all species but my options stop there for me when on the job.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 15, 2022)

gggGary said:


> Fer sher adds a ! to that beat up ole ash tree back in the woods. My guess was good, 30" DABH Good news it's leaning a good felling direction. bit more lean than the pic hints at, pines are vertical.
> View attachment 956529
> 
> looked around and counted about 6-7 more 12" to 20" that need to come down yet. 4 here,
> ...


Cut the one leaner high enough and it will jump the fence


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## rwoods (Jan 15, 2022)

Some of today's falling to create shooting lanes for a sporting clays course.


Just when you think you have them figured out - two more ash hazards:

Small dead ash and hinge *didn't* break. That funky looking stump in the foreground is from a small ash that wanted to hang on to the stump. No equipment handy and little time for a stuck saw, so I whittled on the downed stem top and bottom until it let go leaving a strange looking stump.



Barber chair - not detected by me, the interior on one side had that cellular appearance instead of being fibrous. It broke during the cut causing the good side to chair about 6' above the cut.



Last large ash of the day - center stage leaning left. > 20" nature downed red oak that I severed from the roots - to the left. I snapped a good wedge freeing my saw while cutting the top off of it. 20" nature hung red oak that I also severed from the roots. 



Put the hung red oak down with the ash.




Only twenty minutes left before they lock the gates and with no equipment available, I left these two standing despite the big red Xs on them. I'm just a volunteer taking enough risks as it is without stepping into this unsprung trap. Nice tall and straight 20" poplar in the foreground that they wanted removed.



Some would look at this patch and say what a mess with stems going all over the place instead of a nice parallel lay, but actually it is a thought out plan to minimize damage to the remaining trees and to be able to access and skid out the larger stems for firewood processing. I enjoy both the challenges of directional falling and the reverse "pick up sticks" game you play to organize falling so you can retrieve; both with the intent to lessen collateral damage. Dead ash just adds a little extra excitement.

Ron


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## Oletrapper (Jan 16, 2022)

rwoods said:


> No stock answer to your question beyond every tree may kill you, especially dead ash. My dead ash tactics are to make sure you have a clear overhead where you stand, the clearest falling direction as possible, cut them quick, and run - don't look back - keep putting as much distance as you can from the stump - it is amazing how far stuff will travel through the air. If you can leave the crusty ones to nature, then leave them.
> 
> I recently cut this one with the lean. First movement and the top (in the foreground) broke off about 15' up; it landed just feet from the stump leaving a stem that I had to wedge over.
> 
> ...


That's ugly right there now! Definitely a widow maker! Hope that is your road their laying on. LOL


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## rwoods (Jan 16, 2022)

Oletrapper said:


> That's ugly right there now! Definitely a widow maker! Hope that is your road their laying on. LOL


Interior road at government owned shooting range. Those in charge didn’t care. They were just happy to find someone willing to cut their hazard trees.

Ron


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## Huntaholic (Jan 16, 2022)

Theres no safe way to cut a dead ash. Its a cocked gun with a hair trigger and a Sunday morning drunk with the shakes holding the gun. Multiple times Ive had my helper take his belt off and tie it to mine and have him watch up while I make the felling cuts. One tug on that belt and Im outta there! Hard leaning trees don't scare me, I can cut them and never pull a splinter. Dead ash are another ballgame entirely.


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## Storm56 (Jan 18, 2022)

There have been 2 people killed in the last 15 months within 12 miles of my home felling ash. One was a very experienced logger. I have decided to let nature take care of the few dead ash I have left. Up until last year I carefully felled them. Not worth getting injured or killed over when there are plenty of far less dangerous trees that work for me.


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## rwoods (Jan 18, 2022)

Storm56 said:


> There have been 2 people killed in the last 15 months within 12 miles of my home felling ash. One was a very experienced logger. I have decided to let nature take care of the few dead ash I have left. Up until last year I carefully felled them. Not worth getting injured or killed over when there are plenty of far less dangerous trees that work for me.


Can’t hit the like button on the first part, but certainly can with the second. 

The ash I am falling at the shooting range are hazard trees to those who will be using the range. The others can just fall in place.

Ron


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## Tigwelder83 (Jan 19, 2022)

Storm56 said:


> There have been 2 people killed in the last 15 months within 12 miles of my home felling ash. One was a very experienced logger. I have decided to let nature take care of the few dead ash I have left. Up until last year I carefully felled them. Not worth getting injured or killed over when there are plenty of far less dangerous trees that work for me.


I know of a very reputable logging company that isn't doing any ash sales for that reason. In my business that isn't really an option as I do residential removals. But very sound logic!


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## ShermanC (Jan 19, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> It 100% depends on the situation. If the tree has been dead for awhile and the branches are caught up in other trees, then I will use a piece of equipment and "preload" the tree by standing the equipment's front wheels off the ground by a foot or so. The weight of the equipment "pushes" the tree the first 5 feet or so down. I use a pre cleared path to get out of the falling debris area. If I can't get equipment to it I will use a throw line and 2 ropes with pullys or come alongs. When the tree starts to go I use the same pre cleared path. Preparation!!!!! is the key. CJ


You said it so well CJ...preparation is the key.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Some of today's falling to create shooting lanes for a sporting clays course.
> 
> 
> Just when you think you have them figured out - two more ash hazards:
> ...


It's selective close/closed canopy timber falling. Can't expect anyone to lay them in like sardines.

What caused the barber chair? Cut closed, too much hinge or existing split?


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## Huntaholic (Jan 19, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> It's selective close/closed canopy timber falling. Can't expect anyone to lay them in like sardines.
> 
> What caused the barber chair? Cut closed, too much hinge or existing split?


Its an ash, that's all that can be said about it. If you don't know EXACTLY what youre doing it will happen more times than not with an ash. My Daddy cut more timber than anybody I know, including myself, but bless his heart, he could NOT cut an ash! Every time he got hurt or tore a saw up, it was an ash that did it! I learned how to cut them by watching how he did it, AND DOING IT DIFFERENT FROM HIM. 1st of all, he almost never used a wedge, I almost always do on ash. 2nd, he never bore cut an ash, I always bore cut them. 3rd, he always had a step stump, back cut higher than face cut, I always try to match my cuts. He taught me how to cut them by watching what he did and doing it different. 
I watched him totally destroy a brand new 372xp once lol. He got hung up in the cut, it barberchaired up about 20ft then the trunk fell off the chair back completely horizontal and absolutely destroyed that new saw still hung in the cut.


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## rwoods (Jan 19, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> It's selective close/closed canopy timber falling. Can't expect anyone to lay them in like sardines.
> 
> What caused the barber chair? Cut closed, too much hinge or existing split?



wbf,
Probably two things - 1) the compression wood on the left and face side was dry rotten and crumbled and 2) slow cutting on my part. My face cuts matched so there wasn’t a Dutchman. I didn’t check but possibly my back cut was more favorable to the left side as I often set my hinge thickness with the tip and then pull into the power head side. Apparently it was easier for this tree to split vertically than to flex the uncut hinge. If I had cut faster and stayed with it after the first movement, it might not have barber chaired but I left before the chair. As unpredictable as these dead trees are, especially dropping limbs or the entire top, I don’t hang around when it moves.

Ash is strange. I have very limited experience with healthy ash but the few plate size ones I have cut seem to split easily. On the other hand the 100 or so dying ash I have cut seem to hold together pretty well as well as the many sound dead ash - they usually fall like you want them with a quick cut and a Coos Bay approach or a bore cut. The dry rotted ones are totally unpredictable and really dangerous regardless of my cutting methods. I had judged this one to be dead but sound. It proved me wrong.

Ron


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 19, 2022)

rwoods said:


> wbf,
> Probably two things - 1) the compression wood on the left and face side was dry rotten and crumbled and 2) slow cutting on my part. My face cuts matched so there wasn’t a Dutchman. I didn’t check but possibly my back cut was more favorable to the left side as I often set my hinge thickness with the tip and then pull into the power head side. Apparently it was easier for this tree to split vertically than to flex the uncut hinge. If I had cut faster and stayed with it after the first movement, it might not have barber chaired but I left before the chair. As unpredictable as these dead trees are, especially dropping limbs or the entire top, I don’t hang around when it moves.
> 
> Ash is strange. I have very limited experience with healthy ash but the few plate size ones I have cut seem to split easily. On the other hand the 100 or so dying ash I have cut seem to hold together pretty well as well as the many sound dead ash - they usually fall like you want them with a quick cut and a Coos Bay approach or a bore cut. The dry rotted ones are totally unpredictable and really dangerous regardless of my cutting methods. I had judged this one to be dead but sound. It proved me wrong.
> ...


These definitely seem to be the exception as my experience is barber chairs seldom happen in rotting trees - especially heart rot trees unless the trunk is contorted.
Few things will play into that though such as top weight and lean.
Which is all strange as the live sapwood is where it all happens anyway?

Always cut up the sapwood first with unpredictable species and such. Once you pass the back on the back cut then finish ringing the tree of sapwood.
Stick your dogs in the mouth off the second corner, finish the sapwood and then go to the back again.
You can always beavertail the guts out also from different positions to help speed the cut of the end.


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## rwoods (Jan 19, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> These definitely seem to be the exception as my experience is barber chairs seldom happen in rotting trees - especially heart rot trees unless the trunk is contorted.
> Few things will play into that though such as top weight and lean.
> Which is all strange as the live sapwood is where it all happens anyway?
> 
> ...


>75% across the stem was solid and fibrous. <25% (all on one side) was what I would call dry rot. I believe the rot collapse triggering the movement, but I don't really know. I could have stayed on it and put it down, but it had overhead limbs, so I left. I am no expert, particularly with ash, but in my experience the fresher the tree the more likely it is to split. This is the only dead ash that I have ever experienced a barber chair. The rotten ones explode. The dead ones get brittle first.

Ron


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 19, 2022)

rwoods said:


> wbf,
> Probably two things - 1) the compression wood on the left and face side was dry rotten and crumbled and 2) slow cutting on my part. My face cuts matched so there wasn’t a Dutchman. I didn’t check but possibly my back cut was more favorable to the left side as I often set my hinge thickness with the tip and then pull into the power head side. Apparently it was easier for this tree to split vertically than to flex the uncut hinge. If I had cut faster and stayed with it after the first movement, it might not have barber chaired but I left before the chair. As unpredictable as these dead trees are, especially dropping limbs or the entire top, I don’t hang around when it moves.
> 
> Ash is strange. I have very limited experience with healthy ash but the few plate size ones I have cut seem to split easily. On the other hand the 100 or so dying ash I have cut seem to hold together pretty well as well as the many sound dead ash - they usually fall like you want them with a quick cut and a Coos Bay approach or a bore cut. The dry rotted ones are totally unpredictable and really dangerous regardless of my cutting methods. I had judged this one to be dead but sound. It proved me wrong.
> ...


Just my thoughts on a Coos bay... the purpose in my eyes is too reduce the amount of tension wood you have to cut to set the hinge. If you choose to make that cut, you are committed and you race to the hinge and get out, there is no steering involved, and if you cut slow you have just negated the advantage that cut has. One of the reasons I prefer a bore cut in most of those situations.


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## rwoods (Jan 19, 2022)

No doubt, slow cuts can be killers.
Ron


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## kenmbz (Jan 20, 2022)

I felled one of the dead ash and it threw a 6 foot long vertical slab backwards as it barberchaired.
Once I had it cut enough to fall I heard the crack and made my exit. About 30 seconds later the tree went and fell exactly where I wanted it too, with the wood slab right where I would have been standing if i was not paying attention.
That was a 30"+ inch and I still have the slab sitting around. 

These dead ash are so unpredictable that I paid someone with a cherry picker to come in and top some of them as they were close to other trees and buildings,


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## Cricket (Jan 20, 2022)

davidprivett said:


> I assume that I am not the only one who does this, I notch and back cut but leave a little and walk away and let the next good wind finish the job so I am away from the bad ones. I have had it where I just sat down with a cold one and I heard the thump in the wood stand well away from me.


Hah! I've done this - but mostly because I'm a major chickenshit.


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## Huntaholic (Jan 20, 2022)

Cricket said:


> Hah! I've done this - but mostly because I'm a major chickenshit.


I would NEVER, I repeat NEVER leave a tree standing like that! Even though most of the time nobody is supposed to be on the properties Im working, we all know how that goes. Id have a hard time living with myself if I left a hazard like that in the woods.


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 21, 2022)

Boot Jack said:


> I have been unable to keep up with all the dead Ash ( I probably have 1000) on my farm yet I still cut firewood every year. Those familiar w/ ash know that the bole (base) begins to dry rot fairly quickly. I want to fell these trees and salvage what I can...but how to do it SAFELY? In the past I pretty much just went for it, wedged the best I could and if that failed, hand winched it over with a long cable. Is there a correct way or are there better alternatives?


When you guys are cutting those ash, you should consider the root bowl as a valuable commodity for making hurly bats?
Read this:
https://lockhart-garratt.co.uk/lucrative-market-ash-part-2/

Hurls are continually being broken during games and need replacing.
Worth looking into perhaps?
Here's what average hurls sell for:
https://www.maherhandmadehurls.com/product-category/all-hurls/


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## kenmbz (Jan 21, 2022)

Think they would take my dead ash across the pond for the hurls ?


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 21, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> Think they would take my dead ash across the pond for the hurls ?


Your in the US it take it. Probably would not work, shipping to Ireland, but there's a big Irish community in Boston. If they don't play hurly there I'd be very amazed.You mentioned 1000 ash trees. If they are prone to Ash Die back in the future perhaps getting their value before they become diseased is an option?
Hey I'm probably missing something important. It was just an idea.


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## Brufab (Jan 21, 2022)

I haven't seen an ash tree bigger than 6" that isn't diseased in michigan.


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## kenmbz (Jan 21, 2022)

Unfortunately all my Ash is dead. Ready to fall or be felled. 
Many just collapse on their own.
Much of the wood is good and ends up in my fireplace. 
But there is so much of it and the local Firewood places are flooded with Ash.
Used to be I could call someone to come pick up the trunks for free as they would profit from FW processing.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> I felled one of the dead ash and it threw a 6 foot long vertical slab backwards as it barberchaired.
> Once I had it cut enough to fall I heard the crack and made my exit. About 30 seconds later the tree went and fell exactly where I wanted it too, with the wood slab right where I would have been standing if i was not paying attention.
> That was a 30"+ inch and I still have the slab sitting around.
> 
> These dead ash are so unpredictable that I paid someone with a cherry picker to come in and top some of them as they were close to other trees and buildings,


No problem with you getting out of there but the pressure that separates the wood is at the bottom of the cut and will party be removed as the cut advances. Stalling in the cut as you did caused it - as you say it took 30 seconds to blow-up.
Best not to get yourself in that position thought, for obvious reasons.


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## Huntaholic (Jan 21, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> I felled one of the dead ash and it threw a 6 foot long vertical slab backwards as it barberchaired.
> Once I had it cut enough to fall I heard the crack and made my exit. About 30 seconds later the tree went and fell exactly where I wanted it too, with the wood slab right where I would have been standing if i was not paying attention.
> That was a 30"+ inch and I still have the slab sitting around.
> 
> These dead ash are so unpredictable that I paid someone with a cherry picker to come in and top some of them as they were close to other trees and buildings,


I quoted your post just to offer up a little bit of advice that MIGHT save someones life sometime. Your escape path ALMOST always needs to be at a 45 degree angle away from the base and the direction of fall for the exact reason you just described. Straight away leaves you susceptible to jump back of the trunk from the stump, barber chairs, and flying pieces coming from the trunk.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2022)

I was going to ask which side it fell to but if it fell where you wanted it then I am assuming that it wasn't weighted to one side or the other. (No high or low side)


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## kenmbz (Jan 21, 2022)

The tree fell straight down the line, the piece that shot off was directly opposite the fall.
I was 45 degrees and about 50 feet away when this happened.
In the woods so no danger of someone being in the way. But I kept and eye on it from far away as it went over.
Some parts of this tree while bucking were green, some dust. Those EAB really do a number on these trees.
I spent the day before cutting the brush around the tree, and made multiple escape paths, I try not to get squished


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## Huntaholic (Jan 21, 2022)

LOL In my post I said "MIGHT" and "ALWAYS" because when it comes to cutting trees theres no such thing as 100% for certain and as soon as you think so, the tree spirits will show you otherwise.


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## kenmbz (Jan 21, 2022)

Yes, you have that right, know some pros that were in wheel chairs and casts.
Me, not a pro, and think about the tree for a while before I fell it. Time is not problem like the pros.
I did two tricky ones last year, and have a few that I won't touch and will let mother nature deal with.
But I have a few that I need to take down, all are dead and I consider all of this as unknowns and with respect.
If it is too much, I call in a pro friend and his cherry picker. A man's got to know his limitations!

This one that barberchaired and threw the plank, I knew it was coming and prepared for it. But trees don't know that !


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> Just my thoughts on a Coos bay... the purpose in my eyes is too reduce the amount of tension wood you have to cut to set the hinge. If you choose to make that cut, you are committed and you race to the hinge and get out, there is no steering involved, and if you cut slow you have just negated the advantage that cut has. One of the reasons I prefer a bore cut in most of those situations.


You are probably writing a little loose but I know what you are getting at. Probably better said - is to reduce the sapwood in the compression area that becomes the tension as the cut advances. Sapwood being the strongest fibres and the dead cells of the heart wood is the hardest wood which makes it more prone to snapping rather than splitting.

Barber-chairs mainly happen in the compression area. Less of a bond maybe but tree leans more (gets heavier)as fibres are cut as it is/was self-holding.

With the triangle/Diamond cut (Coos Bay) the holdings wood can still remain intact so in some of the most susceptible area, very little heart wood is cut.
If it's leaning really bad then you can also us a T-cut. Nipping off holding wood puts you in a pinch-point.


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## rwoods (Jan 21, 2022)

For me, T-cuts are easier said than done. But I am not a pro by any means.

Ron


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## Oletrapper (Jan 22, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> Your in the US it take it. Probably would not work, shipping to Ireland, but there's a big Irish community in Boston. If they don't play hurly there I'd be very amazed.You mentioned 1000 ash trees. If they are prone to Ash Die back in the future perhaps getting their value before they become diseased is an option?
> Hey I'm probably missing something important. It was just an idea.


No disrespect James but you are definitely missing something important.
Our Ash are diseased. We have the emerald ash borer here in the US. It has killed Ash by the hundreds of millions. If you don't have the little bastrds there, consider yourself lucky. It can be treated but way too expensive if a person has hundreds on their property. Just saying. OT


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## Cricket (Jan 22, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> I would NEVER, I repeat NEVER leave a tree standing like that! Even though most of the time nobody is supposed to be on the properties Im working, we all know how that goes. Id have a hard time living with myself if I left a hazard like that in the woods.


Anybody who cuts my fences and walks under any of my trees (which can be in an "about to fall" situation on their own), I'm not too worried about. I don't know anyone who goes through their woods and pretties up everything so some trespasser won't get hit by falling limbs.


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## gggGary (Jan 22, 2022)

Anyone ever guard against a barber chair by wrapping trunk with a cargo strap? a Full size 2" truck strap not a homecenter trailer strap.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

gggGary said:


> Anyone ever guard against a barber chair by wrapping trunk with a cargo strap? a Full size 2" truck strap not a homecenter trailer strap.


Yeah, it can help.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2022)

rwoods said:


> For me, T-cuts are easier said than done. But I am not a pro by any means.
> 
> Ron


Big cedar back slabs are more like a T than a trigger as they go bar deep in the tree and usually disconnected from the hammer. More wood is cut on the far side so it can be reached from the safe side. Cutting is usually not bored but plunged off the dogs from each side.

Would need an aggressive chain to self-feed in on medium trees were you can't use the dogs. The other cuts are better options there.


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## jamesmcsparron (Jan 22, 2022)

Oletrapper said:


> No disrespect James but you are definitely missing something important.
> Our Ash are diseased. We have the emerald ash borer here in the US. It has killed Ash by the hundreds of millions. If you don't have the little bastrds there, consider yourself lucky. It can be treated but way too expensive if a person has hundreds on their property. Just saying. OT


No feeling of disrespect taken OT. We have Ash dieback here as well as the Asian Ash Sawfly. It's believed that the Emerald Ash Beetle will not establish itself in Ireland and the British Isles because of our short cold Summers. Too cold for the little ***** to complete their life cycle. 
I'm only becoming aware, now from this thread, of the extent of damage caused in N. America. I must read a tad to catch up.


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## sand sock (Jan 22, 2022)

Dead Ash doesn't barber chair , "usually". Make your open face deeper. 1/3 to 1/2. When you do the release. Cut and get on it, don't lolly gag. Not saying you can't get a barber chair, but i haven't had one in years. More concerned about spring poles.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> Big cedar back slabs are more like a T than a trigger as they go bar deep in the tree and usually disconnected from the hammer. More wood is cut on the far side so it can be reached from the safe side. Cutting is usually not bored but plunged off the dogs from each side.
> 
> Would need an aggressive chain to self-feed in on medium trees were you can't use the dogs. The other cuts are better options there.


That's one thing we don't mention as much... just as important as choosing a type of cut to make is to choose the order of cuts, and assess the "good" and "bad" side of the tree...


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

sand sock said:


> Dead Ash doesn't barber chair , "usually". Make your open face deeper. 1/3 to 1/2. When you do the release. Cut and get on it, don't lolly gag. Not saying you can't get a barber chair, but i haven't had one in years. More concerned about spring poles.


Dead Ash barber chairs, probably hundreds of times a day across the U.S., mostly due to poor technique and lack of experience... hence this thread, to try and prevent that...


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

sand sock said:


> Dead Ash doesn't barber chair , "usually". Make your open face deeper. 1/3 to 1/2. When you do the release. Cut and get on it, don't lolly gag. Not saying you can't get a barber chair, but i haven't had one in years. More concerned about spring poles.


To follow up on that, healthy looking aspen trees don't "usually" have dry rot at the base, and yet I climbed one and rigged the top 7 years ago... and rode it down... this is a zero sum game, and you only get to be wrong once... just sayin...


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2022)

I just fell green ones that had top die-back on them. I figured it out fast that .5:1 ratio (6-12 pitch/26.6°)Humboldt was not open enough for Ash and other UK hardwoods. Birds mouth (pie) conventional or Swanson all start at 1:1 ratio (12-12 pitch/45°) It's a must being north of 40°in hardwoods. If it doesn't look enough then make a snipe stump. (Just a steep angle in the front of the undercut will delay the 'close time' and slide the butt to the ground fast.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> To follow up on that, healthy looking aspen trees don't "usually" have dry rot at the base, and yet I climbed one and rigged the top 7 years ago... and rode it down... this is a zero sum game, and you only get to be wrong once... just sayin...


And in Baseball, if you can get on base 3 out of 10 times then you are worth millions. Got in the wrong buisness.


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## sand sock (Jan 22, 2022)

Dead ash doesnt have the top weight. To help it fall. 
Your correct on not letting the notch close. But dead ash doesnt have the strength to hold and rip upwards around here anymore.


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> And in Baseball, if you can get on base 3 out of 10 times then you are worth millions. Got in the wrong buisness.


Now you tell me...


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## mrhemihead (Jan 22, 2022)

A commercial tree service tried to sell me on their EAB treatment. The magic solution for $500 each tree was guaranteed for 3 years.

NAH
A local logger removed them all and shipped to a mill. With a yield of 12K board feet the net job cost was $500. Spent the last three years chipping the debris.

This solution was the safest and is permanent.


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2022)

TheJollyLogger said:


> To follow up on that, healthy looking aspen trees don't "usually" have dry rot at the base, and yet I climbed one and rigged the top 7 years ago... and rode it down... this is a zero sum game, and you only get to be wrong once... just sayin...



I remember you posting about that, I hope you have now recovered. That barber chair I posted here had all the appearance of a sound tree but It had dry rotted on one side at the base. wbf had me questioning my memory, so I looked at it today - no bypassing cuts, it just broke. Maybe if I had cut faster, just maybe, I could have prevented it. Today's pictures will show why I leave the stump so quickly when cutting ash.

First ash today - felled about 30* off the lean to put it in the road where intended with no collateral damage. Despite small branches at the top which gave the appearance of a dying ash, the top folded back. All of that debris in the road is from the ash.



Second ash of the day also felled about 30* off the lean to put it in the road with no collateral damage. It looked very similar to the first one (now underneath the second), but its top stayed in place though exploding upon impact. Yes, I ditched the 500i.



Third ash of the day - clearly dead. It fell where intended, but what was left of the top folded back putting 2" limbs at the stump and just past the stump, right where I had been standing. Every limb in the foreground is off that tree.





The third tree also had a little surprise. This 6" fork fell about thirty feet in front of the stump after I took the stump picture and had gather my stuff - easily a minute later. 



The third tree was not on my list for today. I just came upon it while scouting the road situation. It taught me another lesson. As an afterthought, I took the saw with me on my scout. I had my cap on and didn't realize that I wasn't wearing my hard hat until it was too late. Sure glad I had put some distance between me and the stump. I believe I will try to make it a habit from now on to leave the cap in the truck whenever falling is on the agenda.

Fourth ash of the day was also not on my list. It was about 1/3 mile down the road next to my log pile from the few trees I have skidded out so far. Nothing particularly instructive about the fourth ash. It also fell where intended. The person in the picture is one of my cutting buddies. The MAC 700 on the stump is mine that I used for fun to buck the main stem and the right fork. I used my MAC 800 to fall it. The 500i took the first three.



My point in mentioning that they fell where intended is not to say I have any particular skill; it is to say that within limits dead ash can be steered which often lessens the hazards posed. Nor am I advising that you should pound wedges in a dead ash; you should simply work with the lean/load as much as you can. None of today's ash were wedged, only the third tree had the lean/load where I wanted.

Road conditions and my fat belly kept me from getting to more ash today.

Be safe out there.
R


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2022)

sand sock said:


> Dead ash doesnt have the top weight. To help it fall.
> Your correct on not letting the notch close. But dead ash doesnt have the strength to hold and rip upwards around here anymore.


Maybe it is just a matter of defining "dead ash", but I can't agree with your first general statement. The top is what allowed me to put each of the ash I cut today where I wanted. All four were dead trees despite the appearances of the first two. 

Apparently unlike your area, here we have a few healthy looking ash, distressed ash, dying/almost dead ash, solid but dead ash, and standing rotten dead ash. Your area must be further through the life cycle than we are. At the rate we are going, I expect all our ash to be dead soon, and in a few years none will be standing.

IME the barber chair scale from greatest risk to lowest risk goes from the healthy looking to rotten dead. Those in the middle can be hard to judge.

Ron


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## jacrider (Jan 22, 2022)

After following this thread, it made me go out today into our back woods where I know we have a dying ash (emerald ash borer victim). It is right along our hiking path. This discussion made me go take it down asap. We took down a couple small cedars to ensure we had a clean drop zone. It was about 18" at the base.

We had my son and brother-in-law spotting while I cut - all of us wearing helmets. Simple open face cut, back cut, wedges and it was down. We had our eyes on one overhanging dead branch that dropped when the tree was on its way down - however, we were all safely back.

All bucked, split and stacked. All good. Thanks to this thread, we didn't delay and approached it more carefully.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I remember you posting about that, I hope you have now recovered. That barber chair I posted here had all the appearance of a sound tree but It had dry rotted on one side at the base. wbf had me questioning my memory, so I looked at it today - no bypassing cuts, it just broke. Maybe if I had cut faster, just maybe, I could have prevented it. Today's pictures will show why I leave the stump so quickly when cutting ash.
> 
> First ash today - felled about 30* off the lean to put it in the road where intended with no collateral damage. Despite small branches at the top which gave the appearance of a dying ash, the top folded back. All of that debris in the road is from the ash.
> View attachment 958500
> ...


Looks good.

I was thinking the other day that the opening wasn't big enough and caused the B-Chair. Measure the wedge if you are not sure.
Did it start to go over and then stoped or did it split right away?


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## Dangerous (Jan 22, 2022)

Stupid is as stupid Does.
Walking around woods with overhead branches attempting to kill or injure not good.

as far as using a strap or even a heavy duty chain to prevent a barberchair situation does Not guarantee your safety. 
How much does the tree weight , how sound is the Wood, height of the tree, which direction is it leaning where are the limbs trying to pull the tree what’s the wind direction and intensity.
Why are you wanting to fell this tree convenience or necessity can you afford to leave this tree alone ?
How good are you At Plunge or bore cutting what’s your understanding of the compression and tension forces gravity is exerting on the stem.
If I HAD HAD TO FELL THIS TREE I would use a full V cut ( 45 degrees up and down ) on side the tree is to fall. 1/3 of the width of the Tree ( no Dutchman ) a plunge or bore cut leaving at least a three inch thick hinge.
Remove the bark from the rear of the tree ( directly opposite rear of the front cut ) expand the bore cut until you have enough holding wood at the trigger point .
Very tricky and not recommended for the newbie . 
might be better to hire a professional


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 22, 2022)

At the end of the day, this has been a good thread, with a lot of information... some good, some bad, lol. I know these EAB ashes are a huge problem through the Midwest, and I have limited experience with them, although they remind me of hypoxylon oaks and pecans down here in Texas... brittle, dead before their time, and full of widowmakers... 
My best advice is to just know the limitations of your own experience, and don't let your ego get you hurt or worse. I was at the top of my game when I climbed the wrong damn tree, and it cost me 2 years of my life, and a career that I loved, and up until that morning it was just another tree...


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2022)

Westboastfaller said:


> Looks good.
> 
> I was thinking the other day that the opening wasn't big enough and caused the B-Chair. Measure the wedge if you are not sure.
> Did it start to go over and then stoped or did it split right away?



From first movement to the chair was pretty quick, I was on the run so I only saw the tail end of it. Today's inspection didn't show anything to stall it or that the hinge had even flexed. The hinge was more than 3" thick. I noted today that it was straight across not tapered as I had mused that it might be. When I say first movement, I mean I heard a popping sound not that I actually saw anything move. 

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 22, 2022)

Without considerable lean or top weight many of the ones I cut won't go down with a 3" hinge. Maybe a matter of definition again. We have talked about many stages of the dead or dying ash in this thread. If I took the thread title to mean rotten ash, I would have little to post beyond the ash in the road as I do my best to avoid cutting rotten ash. 

I enjoy cutting the other ones and though by no means am I a pro I wholeheartedly agree that ash isn't for the novice or for most occasional cutters.
Ron


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## Huskybill (Jan 22, 2022)

My dead ash trees were cut by the town since they were on the edge of the road. These were big trees I have more to go.


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## billyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

If you’re cutting the ash for firewood, how long do you have for storage before it turns to rotten crap with way less btu. I’m sure that has to do with damage done before cutting but it sounds like it gets worse with time just laying in the storage bin.


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## rwoods (Jan 23, 2022)

billyboy, I don’t know. Our turnover is so quick, the dead ash is great as we know folks are getting dry wood.
Ron


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## Cricket (Jan 23, 2022)

Huntaholic said:


> LOL In my post I said "MIGHT" and "ALWAYS" because when it comes to cutting trees theres no such thing as 100% for certain and as soon as you think so, the tree spirits will show you otherwise.


Took down a 8" ***** willow once - no wind, no lean, even top, easily accessible. Had a rope in it, but was just to keep it out of some of my mother's landscaping, so never took the slack out - otherwise, really didn't matter where it came down, though of course I aimed for the best possible spot. Toward which it started a majestic slow lean - and then pivoted a good ninety degrees and came down just in the edge of her big oak. No real harm done, but I sure stood there with my mouth hanging open as it paused, pivoted, and then slowly drifted down.

Tree spirits indeed.


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## Huskybill (Jan 23, 2022)

Burned willow once, smelled like the swamp was burning. I only burned it at 12 am while everyone was sleeping in the neighborhood.


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## Dangerous (Jan 23, 2022)

rwoods said:


> From first movement to the chair was pretty quick, I was on the run so I only saw the tail end of it. Today's inspection didn't show anything to stall it or that the hinge had even flexed. The hinge was more than 3" thick. I noted today that it was straight across not tapered as I had mused that it might be. When I say first movement, I mean I heard a popping sound not that I actually saw anything move.
> 
> Ron


Has anyone ever experienced a barberchair while you were using a Bore or Plunge technique ???
My limited experience no but Not a pro. 
many other have cut more trees than me and would appreciate their Comments insights and opinions.
Add your 2 cents we need maximum inputs to learn the most…
Dangerous !!!


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## dboyd351 (Jan 23, 2022)

jamesmcsparron said:


> It's believed that the Emerald Ash Beetle will not establish itself in Ireland and the British Isles because of our short cold Summers. Too cold for the little ***** to complete their life cycle.


Famous last words


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## TheJollyLogger (Jan 23, 2022)

Dangerous said:


> Has anyone ever experienced a barberchair while you were using a Bore or Plunge technique ???
> My limited experience no but Not a pro.
> many other have cut more trees than me and would appreciate their Comments insights and opinions.
> Add your 2 cents we need maximum inputs to learn the most…
> Dangerous !!!


No... that is definitely my preferred technique


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## chipper1 (Jan 23, 2022)

Dangerous said:


> Has anyone ever experienced a barberchair while you were using a Bore or Plunge technique ???
> My limited experience no but Not a pro.
> many other have cut more trees than me and would appreciate their Comments insights and opinions.
> Add your 2 cents we need maximum inputs to learn the most…
> Dangerous !!!


No, but I've had very hard leaning storm damage tree that had fractures in it put the squeeze on my bar. This was a 20" red oak that was 85' tall, leaning 20' because the wind/storm tipped it and another 15' because it had a sweep in it. I had no idea there were stress fractures in it as everything looked solid until I got it down.
Forgot to add I was on the low side as there was another tree right next to it. I wasn't about to approach the back side with the saw without having my hinge set up.
I've also had ash squat down on my bar just when I finished my bore cut. 
Little tip, don't use a saw with an outboard clutch if you feel this could happen, and don't have your dogs against the tree when you pop thru the opposite side .


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## woodfarmer (Feb 12, 2022)

Dangerous said:


> Has anyone ever experienced a barberchair while you were using a Bore or Plunge technique ???
> My limited experience no but Not a pro.
> many other have cut more trees than me and would appreciate their Comments insights and opinions.
> Add your 2 cents we need maximum inputs to learn the most…
> Dangerous !!!


Yes, but the tree had a big split running down it, so I new it was going to happen.


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## woodfarmer (Feb 12, 2022)

This is what is happening with the ash here.
Took the twins out for a walk today.
Couldn‘t tell you how many Ash I’ve cut in the last 5 winters, 7-800 maybe 1000 who knows.


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## Brufab (Feb 12, 2022)

I have had a couple barber chair clearing my dads build site. But these were really dead. They were so dry and basically barkless and had 1/2"+ vertical splits/cracks from drying out running up the trunk and those splits once the back cut started, and barber chaired the tree. The trees had lean and I felled them to their lean.


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## woodfarmer (Feb 13, 2022)

Scare bleu, I don’t like these, I’m going to try to smash it with another tree but there is only one in the whole bunch leaning toward it and that might be a stretch.


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## ATH (Feb 13, 2022)

How badly does that tree need to come down @woodfarmer ? I'd leave it if I could. I bet it will look a lot different (safer to get down) in a year or two.


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## woodfarmer (Feb 13, 2022)

Too late, I need a videographer, I frickin nailed it. The top off the tree landed 50-60’ away driven right into the ground. If a person was standing under it, they’d have a front row seat to the Olympics in beyjing.

All these tres are on a trail so they need to come down.


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## Brufab (Feb 14, 2022)

Nice work!


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## woodfarmer (Feb 14, 2022)

Look at that!


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## Brufab (Feb 14, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> Look at that!View attachment 964884


Very common in michigan where the EAB killed them all off. I have witnessed alot of scary ash scenarios, mostly the top breaking out as tree is falling sometines catapulting it 20'+ past where it normally would have fallen.


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## GrizG (Feb 14, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> Too late, I need a videographer, I frickin nailed it. The top off the tree landed 50-60’ away driven right into the ground. If a person was standing under it, they’d have a front row seat to the Olympics in beyjing.
> 
> All these tres are on a trail so they need to come down.


Amongst my cutting chores is the removal and clean up of fallen trees, fallen branches, snags, and hazard trees along a rail trail. A majority of the trees are ash... they have deteriorated to the point where it is not uncommon for them to break off mid-stem of fall over because the roots are rotted off. Anything that could injure a trail user is targeted for removal. Recently we had a bad ice storm and there is extensive damage on the trail... guys have been cutting on there for days and that was just to punch a hole through the debris. The rest of the clean up is probably going to take months. 

Yes the tree work is dangerous... we don't allow inexperienced people in there with saws and prefer those who are allowed to have formal training. For example, some of us have Game of Logging training, one has training from the National Forest Service...

Upon what kind of trail are you working?


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## rwoods (Feb 14, 2022)

Here's a black walnut pretending to be an ash.


In his longer video version, he discovers that the piece sticking in his helmet is actually from an 8' or so branch that hit him.

If it had been a real ash, it would have unleashed multiple revenge branches at the cutter.

Ron


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## sand sock (Feb 15, 2022)

rwoods said:


> Here's a black walnut pretending to be an ash.
> 
> 
> In his longer video version, he discovers that the piece sticking in his helmet is actually from an 8' or so branch that hit him.
> ...



I have watched the longer video trying to figure out what happened several times. The whole thing looks wrong from the beginning. 
-Why would you be flush cutting , to drop a tree with branches. Go up 16 inches..get out of the balled up position.stand up and cut.
- he never watches the crown of the tree, its alwsy the kerf.
-the part that gets him is his retreat. He retreats to due south of the cut. To make a show for the camera. He got closer and behind the trunk. Instead of heading 45 degrees directly away..


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## woodfarmer (Feb 15, 2022)

Griz, just a trail through the bush on my neighbours place, they have three young boys under 8 and like to use it for recreation.


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## GrizG (Feb 15, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> Griz, just a trail through the bush on my neighbours place, they have three young boys under 8 and like to use it for recreation.


I've got 22 miles of rail trail that I look after with a few other guys... We've got a LOT of trees down and a LOT widow makers there now due to a bad ice storm. The estimate now is that it will take us months to deal with all the hazards!


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## GrizG (Feb 15, 2022)

sand sock said:


> I have watched the longer video trying to figure out what happened several times. The whole thing looks wrong from the beginning.
> -Why would you be flush cutting , to drop a tree with branches. Go up 16 inches..get out of the balled up position.stand up and cut.
> - he never watches the crown of the tree, its alwsy the kerf.
> -the part that gets him is his retreat. He retreats to due south of the cut. To make a show for the camera. He got closer and behind the trunk. Instead of heading 45 degrees directly away..


If he's cutting that tree to mill into boards cutting 16" higher would be wasting quite a number of board feet... there could be 15+ b.f. of boards in 16" of that log. For example, a 14x14" cant 16" long would yield about 20 b.f. if cut to 4/4. Net (14x12.5x16)/144 = 19.44 b.f. 12.5 was used as an estimate to allow for the kerfs. That is a fair amount of money in walnut... 

On the long version of the video I was surprised at how high his stump was on the first tree. That was until I looked closely and saw there may be some defect on the face cut side of that tree. The second tree was more like I expected.

Yes, not looking up was generally bad practice... as was his escape route. Being that a bore cut was used to set the hinge on the leaner I'd have stopped the cut and left a trigger. Then withdrawn the bar from the kerf rather than exiting the cut out the back. That would give the cutter a chance to take a look for hazards before and during cutting the trigger from the outside of the tree. Hopefully, now that he's been spared of death, he will change his ways in the future!


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## sand sock (Feb 16, 2022)

i checked ohio foresty sale reports. walnut was up about$750 per 1k board feet. i was shocked, fireweood is still worth more . i think they quote dme $500 per tree, about 2 years ago probab ly about 550 to 600 now. i'll wait https://woodlandstewards.osu.edu/si...ce/Ohio Timber Price Report_FINAL_JUL2021.pdf


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## ATH (Feb 16, 2022)

That report is for stumpage. That means a standing tree in the woods. It needs to be filled, skidded, loaded, and hauled to the mill. That adds +/-200-250 per MBF. That also absorbs risk that when the tree is felled, it may not be the grade they were expecting.

To compare the price of a standing tree to delivered firewood is kinda like saying cubic zirconia is worth more than diamond because a ring at Walmart costs more than a diamond still in the mine... (does it? might not be a perfect example...I don't know jewelry!)

Unless you are looking at the delivered log prices...if so, which graded are you looking at? Even blocking is $275 per thousand. That is just a delivered log/no further processing involved. There are roughly 1000 bdft of solid wood in a cord.... How much are you getting for firewood?

All this to say: There are a lot of trees that will never make a merchantable log. Make firewood from those. Let somebody else take the merchandisable trees and write you a check for them.


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## sand sock (Feb 16, 2022)

Firewood around here is around $200 a cord. That is dead ash. They load and haul. I think we're pretty close to seeing firewood go up to 300, with what oil\propane are doing. If your getting mixed oak and other stuff. Your at 300 solid, nobody will sell for less.

Those walnut trees. They quoted 500 for. I can get 700 to 800 for as firewood


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## ATH (Feb 16, 2022)

sand sock said:


> Firewood around here is around $200 a cord. That is dead ash. They load and haul. I think we're pretty close to seeing firewood go up to 300, with what oil\propane are doing. If your getting mixed oak and other stuff. Your at 300 solid, nobody will sell for less.
> 
> Those walnut trees. They quoted 500 for. I can get 700 to 800 for as firewood


but how much time will you spend processing it? Or are you saying you get $300 per cord for people to take it away just like that?

Also...who quoted you for the walnut? and where in central OH are you? feel free to PM if want to share the details and would rather do it privately than open forum... I don't know everybody - but some names stand out as "probably bidding low" while others are solid. I'd be happy to share thoughts on those if I know.


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## sand sock (Feb 17, 2022)

the prices quoted were from out local state forestor for walnut. he thinks i am another 10 years away from a $1000 per tree. that is what i need to make it worth logging out my walnuts , for the amount of damadge will be done.

firewood . i dont cut like everyone else, i drop the tree where i want the brush and i trim off the trash and pile it there. i section off what my truck can pull out of the woods, in multiples of 16 inches. i keep a fe w snatch straps and about 60 feet of heavy rope used on cranes. i pull it out and cut it up. i can fill a 3/4 ton truck on a half tank of gas. about 1/3 cord. i back up the truck and load the rounds, so i am not carrying it 50 feet. thas about 45 minutes on trunk wood. branches take longer. i do cut the entire t ree, that skew s the time to cut. i pull my truck and splitter up to my box or ibc crate. split and fill the container. it takes about 30 minutes for 1/3 cord. so that is about 95 minutes. 
thas rough farmers math. 1 or 2 years later. when i am burning out spring fence rows, the brush gets consumed.


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## ATH (Feb 17, 2022)

You might try to get some actual quotes... walnut prices are nuts right now. I still wouldn't be cutting those for firewood. Plenty of other trees that nobody wants to buy for a log.


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## sand sock (Feb 17, 2022)

ATH said:


> You might try to get some actual quotes... walnut prices are nuts right now. I still wouldn't be cutting those for firewood. Plenty of other trees that nobody wants to buy for a log.


I looked and have the doyle ruler for measuring girth and usable lengths


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## ATH (Feb 17, 2022)

sand sock said:


> I looked and have the doyle ruler for measuring girth and usable lengths


That gets you to volume... But is it worth $1, $2, $3? per board foot. I'm seeing some pretty junky looking walnut logs selling for over $1/board foot right now. $2+ isn't out of the question Easily $8 to $10 per foot if it's veneer grade... which is less common.

Obviously, they are your trees so do whatever you want. I just try to help people get the most out of their woods that they can... It may very well be that you have all the information you need and you've made the best possible decision. I'm not trying to tell you what you should do, just offering my two cents. I've been at Forester here for a while working with private landowners so I've seen a lot of mistakes made based on inadequate information.


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## GrizG (Feb 17, 2022)

ATH said:


> That gets you to volume... But is it worth $1, $2, $3? per board foot. I'm seeing some pretty junky looking walnut logs selling for over $1/board foot right now. $2+ isn't out of the question Easily $8 to $10 per foot if it's veneer grade... which is less common.
> 
> Obviously, they are your trees so do whatever you want. I just try to help people get the most out of their woods that they can... It may very well be that you have all the information you need and you've made the best possible decision. I'm not trying to tell you what you should do, just offering my two cents. I've been at Forester here for a while working with private landowners so I've seen a lot of mistakes made based on inadequate information.


I concur... It also seems that everybody with a walnut tree in their yard thinks it will top off their retirement plan! No regard for the quality of the tree or the effort to remove it, mill it, or market it... It's walnut, it must be worth a fortune!


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## kenmbz (Feb 18, 2022)

With the winds over 55mph here a few more Ash have fallen by themselves.
Of course it's not any of the ones that I want to fall!


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## rwoods (Feb 18, 2022)

I am hopeful that our winds yesterday brought down some tops that the last strong winds left hanging in other trees. The woods I am working seem to be getting more dangerous every week.

Ron


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## GrizG (Feb 18, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I am hopeful that our winds yesterday brought down some tops that the last strong winds left hanging in other trees. The woods I am working seem to be getting more dangerous every week.
> 
> Ron


Same here... Our recent ice storm exacerbated the problem. I've already cut about 50 trees on my family's properties and have at least that many more to go... Some sections of the rail trail I help maintain looked like scenes from the movie Hamburger Hill... A hole has been punched through but it will take months for the volunteers to finish the clean up.


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## Cricket (Feb 18, 2022)

rwoods said:


> I am hopeful that our winds yesterday brought down some tops that the last strong winds left hanging in other trees. The woods I am working seem to be getting more dangerous every week.
> 
> Ron


I have a smallish (like 12") ash against one side of my barn, that's hung up in the walnut next to it. It's disintegrating even in that wind protected, held up by another tree position. I just decided I don't need to walk in that area for a while. It's flat against the barn wall, tangled in the walnut (actually, because I have no ash really - I just thought it was another walnut, because I never really checked). I can think of not one good reason to get near the thing - it will be a pile of punk by next year at the latest.


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## kenmbz (Mar 12, 2022)

What happens when the stump is rotted below grade and I didn't notice.
Was almost done with back cut when I heard a crack, tree starts moving.
Got to watch from about 100' away, never trust a dead ash  



I need to buy another snatch block and just rope the one next to this to see if it will just pop too. It looked worse.
Just heard another one fall, heavy winds here, but it does not look like any of the ones I need out of the way , oh well


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## GrizG (Mar 12, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> What happens when the stump is rotted below grade and I didn't notice.
> Was almost done with back cut when I heard a crack, tree starts moving.
> Got to watch from about 100' away, never trust a dead ash
> View attachment 972626
> ...


I've had that happen too. As such I developed the habit of pushing on the ash before I start cutting. I've pushed at least a dozen over with my hands and body weight alone. I stopped touching ash trees while out hunting too as I've had them fall over... They become more dangerous every day!


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## kenmbz (Mar 12, 2022)

These are too big to push on, might end up with a split trunk in me.
Have had quite a few do split 10-15' up on a fall.
Time for ropes and distance. Glad my bigger rope is 200' !
I still have at least 6 to get down before spring takes hold. The rest I may just rope the branches off if they'll cooperate.


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## GrizG (Mar 12, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> These are too big to push on, might end up with a split trunk in me.
> Have had quite a few do split 10-15' up on a fall.
> Time for ropes and distance. Glad my bigger rope is 200' !
> I still have at least 6 to get down before spring takes hold. The rest I may just rope the branches off if they'll cooperate.


I've found that if they've got significant root rot that the size doesn't matter too much. It is also easier to see and hear what is going on when the saw isn't in my hands and isn't running. Of course, "best practices" dictates that we assess the hazards of every tree we cut. As such, our experience based judgement while assessing a tree trumps the WWW!


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## JimR (Mar 13, 2022)

kenmbz said:


> What happens when the stump is rotted below grade and I didn't notice.
> Was almost done with back cut when I heard a crack, tree starts moving.
> Got to watch from about 100' away, never trust a dead ash
> View attachment 972626
> ...


That tree must have been dead for a few years. I have been dealing with a lot of standing dead Ash on our property due to Ash blight. I have yet to have one that bad in the roots.


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## JimR (Mar 13, 2022)

Boot Jack said:


> I have been unable to keep up with all the dead Ash ( I probably have 1000) on my farm yet I still cut firewood every year. Those familiar w/ ash know that the bole (base) begins to dry rot fairly quickly. I want to fell these trees and salvage what I can...but how to do it SAFELY? In the past I pretty much just went for it, wedged the best I could and if that failed, hand winched it over with a long cable. Is there a correct way or are there better alternatives?


Excavator


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## kenmbz (Mar 13, 2022)

JimR said:


> Excavator


Too many flying high up branches for an excavator. Though that would have been perfect if I knew they were dying 3 years ago. Too many big branches 80' or higher is what I am trying to avoid.
So rope first on ones that I see the bark separating around the base. 
I'll try that before a saw going forward. 
Most of my trees that fall naturally, split 10-15 feet up. Looks like a bunch of giant toothpicks.
With the wind yesterday even a poplar branch tried to get me from pretty far away.

This one almost got us, the tulip poplar is about 60 feet off to the left in the forest. Only tree big enough right there, and only tree with a stub where a branch used to be. The rest of the tree is healthy.


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## GrizG (Mar 13, 2022)

JimR said:


> That tree must have been dead for a few years. I have been dealing with a lot of standing dead Ash on our property due to Ash blight. I have yet to have one that bad in the roots.


The ash around here is so far gone it is breaking off mid stem and falling over at the ground due to rotten roots. Our area must have been ahead of yours in the kill off...


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## woodfarmer (Mar 13, 2022)

A few more biggns


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## arathol (Mar 14, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> A few more biggnsView attachment 973086


I see that wedge in the cut.....made me think of this -
Cutting like that can get the saw stuck and the pieces hung up. The forces work like this more or less-





If you make the cut vertically in relation to the force of gravity, the upper piece should just slide down the face and fall away.


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## kenmbz (Mar 14, 2022)

Arathol, That is the cut that works on these leaners. 
Fall direction on this one is not just based on cut, but also on what the tree is leaning on. The one I am dealing with now is almost vertical and hanging on a branch about 50' up.

I need to keep the pull way from me when I rope it and see if I can lift the butt off the ground.

I already put two cuts in so as it comes down it should split on the cuts.


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## GrizG (Mar 14, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> A few more bigView attachment 973088


That looks like a dead fall trap set over a game trail...


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## woodfarmer (Mar 15, 2022)

It hit the ground no problem when I made the last cut from the far side.


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## gggGary (Apr 6, 2022)

dboyd351 said:


> Famous last words











Ash dieback: Exploding diseased trees risk lives - experts


Removal has killed forestry workers but there are concerns people may try to do it at home.



www.bbc.com


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## kenmbz (Apr 7, 2022)

This article is perfect. Some of the self falling ash by EAB (not the same as the problem in the article, but same result) have shot off branches 50-70 feet away from the tree when they come down.
For me this means shooting a rope over the ones that still have branches and trying to get the branch to fall down by pulling at an angle. 
These big ones are getting way to unpredictable.

This one made my 620p with 24" bar look like a toy.

While bucking, it's chips, dust, chips, so the tree was heavily compromised.
The still standing ones are worse. Unclimbable and if they were in an area where they could hit something would need a bucket truck or crane to take them apart. (I did hire a team to take some of them down in those situations, quite expensive to say the least).


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## Oletrapper (Apr 19, 2022)

GrizG said:


> That looks like a dead fall trap set over a game trail...


For a deer or maybe a black bear. lmao  OT


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## GrizG (Apr 19, 2022)

Oletrapper said:


> For a deer or maybe a black bear. lmao  OT


I was thinking more like it being the guy driving under that hazard!


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## Oletrapper (Apr 19, 2022)

GrizG said:


> I was thinking more like it being the guy driving under that hazard!


Ouch!  OT


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## Cricket (Apr 22, 2022)

GrizG said:


> The ash around here is so far gone it is breaking off mid stem and falling over at the ground due to rotten roots. Our area must have been ahead of yours in the kill off...


I've got one beside my barn, that rotted off and broke about... six feet, maybe (I'm keeping my distance, so sure not measuring it), the summer after the last leaves. I'll try to get a picture of it - it's definitely reinforced may "Not touching *that* one!" philosophy on even dying ash.


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