# Woods Porting The MS660......Tricks And Tips



## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

In this thread I will try to dispel some common myths and rumors about the late model MS660. I've Done more than a couple of these saws.....and have made a few mistakes. I learned a couple of tricks in the process and figured I would share them.

Here's the victim....a nearly new MS660....a tank or so has been put through it.







The HD2 filter is a performance enhancer all by itself. I've seen a 500rpm increase by just replacing the old filter with one of these.






Nice huh? I love working on new saws.






Here's another place we will find gains in cut speed. I cut .020 from the edge of the flywheel key and advance to ignition about 8°. The flywheel must be moved counterclockwise.






Here we open this tiny outlet up to 3/4". If more outlet is needed a dual port cover is a great idea.






In order to keep the bracing effect of this baffle, we cut off the end and about an additional 1/4" or so. I forgot to take a pic of that. 






Inside the carb there is normally some casting flash at the venturi....this one was very smooth though. Most of the time we clean that up to enhance flow thru the carb.






The machine work has been done in this shot. Without a base gasket this engine only had .007 squish clearance. We cut .063 from the squish band and removed .045 from the base to end up with a .025 squish clearance.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 19, 2012)

Awesome Randy,..I am currently building one so I will follow this thread closely.


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## mtrees (Sep 19, 2012)

Me too!!


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## Tzed250 (Sep 19, 2012)

Thanks for another great thread Randy.


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## saxman (Sep 19, 2012)

Randy,
I too will follow closely, I have a 660 I purchased new in 2009 and I am thinking seriously about sending it to you for woods porting this winter. My dealer installed a dual port cover before I picked it up and I have installed the high output piston and bolt in the oil pump as I keep a 36" on it all the time. I have lots of other saws to play with but the 660 is the big daddy and I would like to take it to the next level. I will PM you when I am ready, thanks

Steve


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

Here's a couple of shots of the stock ports. After the machine work the height of the exhaust port is 4° lower......that's a good thing on the MS660. Care must be taken not to raise it any during the porting process. It's at 98° now.






In this picture notice the bevel on the bottom edge of the bore......it helps to let the ring into the jug without damage.






This is an area that can cause grief if not taken proper care of. Lowering the jug causes the transfer bulges to come in contact with the case. I find it ends up nicer to clearance the case rather than the jug. 











Here the cylinder after the port work and polish. Notice the plating at the top center of the exhaust port. I'm careful not the raise it at all.......it's all but impossible to blend the plating in completely smooth.






The lowers are dropped to the base and blended in. On the uppers I've raised them to 122° and widened them slightly. The ring end locations only leave a little room for widening them toward the intake, I also take them toward the exhaust a bit......the angle of entry must be maintained when doing this though, so a right angle handpiece is a must. 











On the intake I don't lower it at all, it's already got plenty of intake duration. I just widen and reshape the port. Notice the finish......60 grit is as fine as I go on this port.


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

I like a slick exhaust port.......hell, if nothing else it looks good. 






Here's the kicker.......this saw had 148psi before I tore it down......






It was dark when I finished her up. There will be before and after videos tomorrow. I also try to put at least a tank of fuel thru every saw I build.....that takes time with some saws but I figure this one won't take too long.


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## Nardoo (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice work Randy. Your pictures are so good even an old dolt like me can follow. Not necessarily understand, of course, but follow.

Al.


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Awesome Randy,..I am currently building one so I will follow this thread closely



Heck Jerry it was your thread on the 046 that lit a fire under my ass to start porting saws in the first place. 



mtrees said:


> Me too!!



I hope......it's your damn saw!!!! 



Tzed250 said:


> Thanks for another great thread Randy.



You're welcome John. I've been able to get good gains on this model and figured I should share.




saxman said:


> Randy,
> I too will follow closely, I have a 660 I purchased new in 2009 and I am thinking seriously about sending it to you for woods porting this winter. My dealer installed a dual port cover before I picked it up and I have installed the high output piston and bolt in the oil pump as I keep a 36" on it all the time. I have lots of other saws to play with but the 660 is the big daddy and I would like to take it to the next level. I will PM you when I am ready, thanks
> 
> Steve



I'll be here.


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## NPKenny (Sep 19, 2012)

This is easily my favorite thread of the day. I've got to get my jug dropped and squish band cut!!

Thanks for sharing, Randy.


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## blsnelling (Sep 19, 2012)

Very nice Randy


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## parrisw (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice work Randy as usual. 

One thing, you say you don't lower the intake port, but it does get lowered with the machine work in-case someone doesn't realize that.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 19, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Heck Jerry it was your thread on the 046 that lit a fire under my ass to start porting saws in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have come a long way, Grasshopper,..keep up the great work and threads that make being a active member of this forum worthwhile.....


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## parrisw (Sep 19, 2012)

pioneerguy600 said:


> You have come a long way, Grasshopper,..keep up the great work and threads that make being a active member of this forum worthwhile.....



Yes!! Its what I like to read on the forum.


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Nice work Randy as usual.
> 
> One thing, you say you don't lower the intake port, but it does get lowered with the machine work in-case someone doesn't realize that.



Good point Will. I should have stated that the intake should not be lowered any *further*. Any more doesn't seem to do anything but cause it to use more fuel.


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## josh1981 (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice write up thanks for sharing


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## parrisw (Sep 19, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Good point Will. I should have stated that the intake should not be lowered any *further*. Any more doesn't seem to do anything but cause it to use more fuel.



Ya, it'll drink enough as is!! I know the last 395 I built could of used a fuel truck behind it.


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 19, 2012)

Nice work Randy again and again 
There is not many builders that have the b_lls to show there work to the world.


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## Primoburrito (Sep 19, 2012)

*so sorry to bud in*

Hey Guys,
I'm sorry, I cant seem to figure out how to start a new post.
I have a 066 Magnum that I want to discuss and I have forgotten how to post a new thread.
A little guidance would be much appreciated..


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

maurycobb said:


> Hey Guys,
> I'm sorry, I cant seem to figure out how to start a new post.
> I have a 066 Magnum that I want to discuss and I have forgotten how to post a new thread.
> A little guidance would be much appreciated..



Near the top of the chainsaw forum main page.......click on "start new thread".


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## parrisw (Sep 19, 2012)

maurycobb said:


> Hey Guys,
> I'm sorry, I cant seem to figure out how to start a new post.
> I have a 066 Magnum that I want to discuss and I have forgotten how to post a new thread.
> A little guidance would be much appreciated..



Go to main page and at the top there should be a button that says start new thread.


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice work Randy again and again
> These not many builder that have the b_lls to show there work to the world.



It ain't rocket surgery......be a little experience is a plus.


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## parrisw (Sep 19, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> Nice work Randy again and again
> These not many builder that have the b_lls to show there work to the world.



I agree, and its what I like to see around here, and is why I've always shared all my builds.


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## Jacob J. (Sep 19, 2012)

parrisw said:


> I agree, and its what I like to see around here, and is why I've always shared all my builds.



You've shared a lot more than your builds, Will. I breathed a little sigh of relief when you turned the webcam off.


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## ZeroJunk (Sep 19, 2012)

I wish I had not seen this thread. I'm starting to get the itch always being fond of the 066/ MS660's anyway. I have one that seems to be inching acroos the floor toward Tennesse. I need to tie it to a cinder block or something.


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## Mastermind (Sep 19, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> You've shared a lot more than your builds, Will. I breathed a little sigh of relief when you turned the webcam off.



Can I get an Amen!!!!! 



ZeroJunk said:


> I wish I had not seen this thread. I'm starting to get the itch always being fond of the 066/ MS660's anyway. I have one that seems to be inching acroos the floor toward Tennesse. I need to tie it to a cinder block or something.



We get along........me and the 1122 series.


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## tree monkey (Sep 19, 2012)

lol
looks like youv'e been into one of my saws
thats what i've been doing for a long time, before you started porting, and it works.
your intake and exhaust ports are best at 165 dur
can't always get them there but as close as i can, transfer is 117 dur 

good looking build
you learn fairly quick


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## bryanr2 (Sep 20, 2012)

NPKenny said:


> This is easily my favorite thread of the day. I've got to get my jug dropped and squish band cut!!
> 
> Thanks for sharing, Randy.




First thing I do, when I log in at night is look for new Mastermind build threads. If there is a new one- it's a good night. They are always a great read and usually have the same group of fellers participating. Best place to hang out in the chainsaw forum. It keeps the dream alive.


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 20, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> lol
> looks like youv'e been into one of my saws
> thats what i've been doing for a long time, before you started porting, and it works.
> your intake and exhaust ports are best at 165 dur
> ...



Ha have ya got hold of a 461 yet ?.

Andrew


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> lol
> looks like youv'e been into one of my saws
> thats what i've been doing for a long time, before you started porting, and it works.
> your intake and exhaust ports are best at 165 dur
> ...



Our numbers are within a .5 of a degree.......I swear I wasn't watching you port one Scott.


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## tree monkey (Sep 20, 2012)

thats what i thought
i think you got a good spy:hmm3grin2orange:


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## deye223 (Sep 20, 2012)

:chainsawguy:


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 20, 2012)

*the cats out of the bag...*

When you find out what works, you usually find out you didn't re-invent the wheel. Somebody has almost always been there before and they are just tight lipped about it. Case in point, I learned more in one night from a SBC super stock guru than all the who-ha going around here and there about "how" to port massage a set of factory iron heads. Notice I said, iron factory heads, you only get one shot at the chamber, exhaust bowls and exhaust ports. If you go too far, their gone. The strange part is with multiple cylinders none of the ports with reverse valve arrangement look the same to one another, strange indeed. The center is a different bowl and port shape compared to the ends. You seem to be working out the same principals with different saw sizes and cylinder configurations.

Nice work, good tec stuff! :msp_thumbsup:


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## Rudolf73 (Sep 20, 2012)

HOORAYY for a 660 build!! :msp_wub:


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## splitpost (Sep 20, 2012)

Bloody awesome Randy,tried to Rep ya but i gotta spread it some first


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 20, 2012)

+ 1 on that.


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

I just hope it runs better than a stock one now. :msp_ohmy:


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## blsnelling (Sep 20, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Our numbers are within a .5 of a degree.......I swear I wasn't watching you port one Scott.



I can't believe you leaked all this proprietary information! You'll probably never get another port job now!:cool2:


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I can't believe you leaked all this proprietary information! You'll probably never get another port job now!:cool2:



I've only got ten saws to port in the shop.........

When i first started trying to figure this stuff out most guys were real careful about telling too much. That caused me great amounts of frustration.......I may be wrong but I think that being completely transparent is a good thing. People tend to want to know what is going to be done to their engine.......if I don't post pictures of my work they won't have a clue what I'm doing. The engine in this thread is a typical woods port for me. I almost always increase compression by cutting squish because I gain more control over the port timing......many times the saw leaves here with less exhaust duration or lower transfers than it had stock.

On the other side is helping out the guys that want a ported saw but really can't afford the expense of shipping it across the country and shelling out 250 clams. I understand that completely.....and will gladly share what little I know. 

When I found this site I was in a bad state of health.....and money was very scarce. The info I found here helped me to have something to do while I was recuperating, without it I would have went crazy. The first saw I did any port work on was an 026 that was given to me.......it was cold outside, the shop was full of construction tools without heat. My wife insisted that I sit at the kitchen table and work on that saw. That gave me something to do with my hands.....at the time I really needed that. The incentive I needed to get started was found on this site. In my mind I owe this group of guys and gals.......I try to give some back whenever I can.


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## ZeroJunk (Sep 20, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I can't believe you leaked all this proprietary information! You'll probably never get another port job now!:cool2:



I think you are safe. Probably not a handful of people who read these forums that even know what it means.

If I can get one of you to build one for me I sure as hell aln't going to learn how, ruin a couple in the process, and buy the stuff to do it with.

I think I will just stick to fixing what's broke.


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## bryanr2 (Sep 20, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I can't believe you leaked all this proprietary information! You'll probably never get another port job now!:cool2:



+1- if a builder wont share their builds, i won't share my money. Randy shares his, which leaned me towards him, and looking at my sig- it worked out for both of us.


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## jropo (Sep 20, 2012)

ZeroJunk said:


> I think you are safe. Probably not a handful of people who read these forums that even know what it means.
> 
> If I can get one of you to build one for me I sure as hell aln't going to learn how, ruin a couple in the process, and buy the stuff to do it with.
> 
> I think I will just stick to fixing what's broke.



Even if you have a good idea of what you want, what your doing, and have done a few other saws before w/ good results there has to be that moment when the carbide is spinning and it's about to start cutting on a $300 cyl. that makes you reaaaaalllly wonder if this is the right thing to do.


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

jropo said:


> Even if you have a good idea of what you want, what your doing, and have done a few other saws before w/ good results there has to be that moment when the carbide is spinning and it's about to start cutting on a $300 cyl. that makes you reaaaaalllly wonder if this is the right thing to do.



I was doing a nice 036 Pro for a member last year........in a moment of slight distraction I let the burr contact the transfer bridge.......it bound and bent the shank.......then proceeded to destroy the plating inside that jug. All the port work was done and I was just blending and smoothing the transfer tunnels......so I lost the time I had in the work.....and I had to replace the jug.


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## jropo (Sep 20, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I was doing a nice 036 Pro for a member last year........in a moment of slight distraction I let the burr contact the transfer bridge.......it bound and bent the shank.......then proceeded to destroy the plating inside that jug. All the port work was done and I was just blending and smoothing the transfer tunnels......so I lost the time I had in the work.....and I had to replace the jug.



:msp_ohmy::bang:


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

jropo said:


> :msp_ohmy::bang:



I know......right? 

The worst one I've had was a 372xp. I got it in a trade, it had puked the big end on the rod and was disassembled. The parts were loose in the box and little bits of the needle bearings were everywhere. I rebuilt it with a good used 371 crankshaft, new bearings, seals, gaskets, a good used 372 jug, and a new Meteor piston. I cut the squish band and ported it. She ended up being a great runner. Then I sold it. 

After about ten tanks or so the owner contacted me and said it died. I had him to return it so I could fix it. I found a piece of that old needle bearing embedded in the bottom of the crankcase. I figured the it was hung in the air filter pleating and finally come loose. The top end was toast. I replaced it with an new OEM 372 top end, cut squish and ported......on my dime. 

I sent Chris the saw back and it lasted about 6 tanks before it lost compression. I asked him to send it back again for me to fix......again. I was thinking by this time that the saw had a gremlin in it or something.  

It had a broken ring and had trashed the top end again. I never could determine why it failed, but think I may have cracked the ring when I was putting it together. (That's the reason I put a nice bevel on the bottom of the bore these days)

I replaced that top end with a single ring 371 piston and OEM cylinder......cut squish and ported......so far it's still running, but Chris may call today about that demon saw. 

If you do this stuff all the time there will be failures.......how you deal with those failures is what really matters though.


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## jropo (Sep 20, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I know......right?
> 
> The worst one I've had was a 372xp. I got it in a trade, it had puked the big end on the rod and was disassembled. The parts were loose in the box and little bits of the needle bearings were everywhere. I rebuilt it with a good used 371 crankshaft, new bearings, seals, gaskets, a good used 372 jug, and a new Meteor piston. I cut the squish band and ported it. She ended up being a great runner. Then I sold it.
> 
> ...



Your right, lessons come at a price. And how you dealt w/ that situation was a brick that helped build who you are today.
G-pa always said its because all of the other parts are jealous of the new parts.


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## StihlyinEly (Sep 20, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> If you do this stuff all the time there will be failures.......*how you deal with those failures is what really matters though.*



As so often happens on this forum, a statement about porting chainsaws is really a statement about life in general.


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## cowroy (Sep 20, 2012)

The last time I talked to ya it sounded like you might give up hope on the 371/372xp bottom ends. I hope you don't get anymore demons like that.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 20, 2012)

Randy,..concerning the effed up stuff, if you as a porter have not effed up some parts you have not entered into any new or unknown territories. I have and any other porter worth their salt has a collection of effed up parts, comes with the territory. Expensive jugs and pistons, yes I have a few along with some of the cheaper types I have experimented with and a few that were outright mistakes. I don`t beat myself up over it, just the cost of learning.


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## mtrees (Sep 20, 2012)

Videos?? I'm in withdrawal!!!


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

mtrees said:


> Videos?? I'm in withdrawal!!!



Processing.......

I don't have the "before" video. 

I let my grandson work the camera......well I shouldn't have.


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## mtrees (Sep 20, 2012)

Haha I understand completely. I had my brother killing a nice 130" buck in Wyoming on video. That is until he decided to see how the camera worked while I was hunting.


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## Scooterbum (Sep 20, 2012)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Randy,..concerning the effed up stuff, if you as a porter have not effed up some parts you have not entered into any new or unknown territories. I have and any other porter worth their salt has a collection of effed up parts, comes with the territory. Expensive jugs and pistons, yes I have a few along with some of the cheaper types I have experimented with and a few that were outright mistakes. I don`t beat myself up over it, just the cost of learning.



That is so true, I call it my "Damn it shelf". Everything from chainsaw cylinders to some very pricey HD heads. Comes with the territory.


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## Tzed250 (Sep 20, 2012)

Oh, the parts I've killed...


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

I did save the video. :msp_thumbup:

Stock in knot free poplar......

[video=youtube;zlXxqMt1DEo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlXxqMt1DEo&feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

After in crappy wood. 

[video=youtube;-3xBvhYbWfk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3xBvhYbWfk&feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## mtrees (Sep 20, 2012)

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

mtrees said:


> SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:



The videos don't do it justice. That wood is way too small for a good comparison.


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## Tzed250 (Sep 20, 2012)

Movin' some serious chips there!!!


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## UK Rich (Sep 20, 2012)

So then, question. It has been mentioned that you dont lower the intake side. That's fine, but what if the intake is lowered, could you drop the jug still?


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## indiansprings (Sep 20, 2012)

Once again, great contribution and thread, the owner should be pleased. Stock off the shelf they are so restricted it's a shame.


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

UK Rich said:


> So then, question. It has been mentioned that you dont lower the intake side. That's fine, but what if the intake is lowered, could you drop the jug still?



I wouldn't want to go past 85 atdc.


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## tree monkey (Sep 20, 2012)

the saw will run fine with over 170 dur but you will need a gastruck folowing you


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## Scooterbum (Sep 20, 2012)

Did you get much gain in RPM at WOT?


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## tree monkey (Sep 20, 2012)

Scooterbum said:


> Did you get much gain in RPM at WOT?



a little but not worth the extra fuel for a work saw
also a little slugish throttle responce


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## Mastermind (Sep 20, 2012)

Scooterbum said:


> Did you get much gain in RPM at WOT?



If you mean on this saw Steve......it's tuned to 13,800.


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## bryanr2 (Sep 20, 2012)

In Mastermind we trust!


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## Trx250r180 (Sep 21, 2012)

too wierd ,i was just eyeballing my 660 last night ,and it didnt have a sticker on it ,then i see this thead today , great work as usual randy


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## Mastermind (Sep 21, 2012)

trx250r180 said:


> too wierd ,i was just eyeballing my 660 last night ,and it didnt have a sticker on it ,then i see this thead today , great work as usual randy



We can cure that problem ya know.


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 21, 2012)

*Questions to Randy. One metal hacker to another...*

Not to high jack but, I have a few questions that I hope will fit here and have some merit to the build.

1. What did you do to the piston on this MS660 build? Is it a stock factory piston in stock form?
I know they make popups but that is not the direction I'll be heading in.

2. Have you ever compared piston window ports from one manufacturer to another?
Please be specific if possible.

3. Does anybody have an average weight for the factory Stihl MS660 bare piston? Have not weighed mine yet.
That might seem pointless to most but it will be a huge factor for my build.

4. Does an 066 flat top no de-comp have a different piston?
Have not torn mine down yet to check.

5. Do you think window porting pistons improves the flow in this saw to produce more mid range torque?

6. Do you think a longer and wider piston skirt would be of any benefit to this build?

Thanks in advance


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## tolman_paul (Sep 21, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've only got ten saws to port in the shop.........
> 
> When i first started trying to figure this stuff out most guys were real careful about telling too much. That caused me great amounts of frustration.......I may be wrong but I think that being completely transparent is a good thing. People tend to want to know what is going to be done to their engine.......if I don't post pictures of my work they won't have a clue what I'm doing. The engine in this thread is a typical woods port for me. I almost always increase compression by cutting squish because I gain more control over the port timing......many times the saw leaves here with less exhaust duration or lower transfers than it had stock.
> 
> ...



As anyone who's worked on two smokes knows, it takes much more than a degree wheel and a moto tool to make an engine builder.

But it's not just the investment in various hand pieces and burrs, it just takes time to learn how to layout a cylinder to port it, how the burrs behave in the cut, and no matter how many ports you've ground you'll have an oh sheep dip moment when a burr gets away from you and ruins a cylinder you've spent hours porting.

Honestly I've found one of the best additions to a grinding outfit is a foot pedal so you can turn the darn thing on and off quickly. I'm using a makita die grinder to power my foredom flex cable and a variac to control speed. But the foot pedal on off is highly recomended. 

If anyone is secretive about their porting it's probably because they are embarassed to show how ugly the grinding marks are that they leave.


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## Mastermind (Sep 21, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> Not to high jack but, I have a few questions that I hope will fit here and have some merit to the build.
> 
> 1. What did you do to the piston on this MS660 build? Is it a stock factory piston in stock form?
> I know they make popups but that is not the direction I'll be heading in.
> ...



The piston in this build is the stock piston and is completely unmodified, with the exception of the casting flash being removed from the windows. I realizing that the windows in the piston are not as critical to transfer flow as I once thought......having a smooth surface is more important in my opinion than sheer size. If I was trying to get everything I could from an engine I would use the windows and other areas to lighten the piston and enhance flow into the transfers......

I've not spent much time studying piston weight and it's effects......I build work saws for my bread and butter and tend to be conservative when altering a piston.......better to leave a little on the table than to lose durability. 

The early 066 piston doesn't have the "wings" and would be lighter but also less stable in the bore compared to the 660 piston.

I have done two engines with work done on the windows of the piston in one and untouched in the other (MS460). I couldn't tell any difference in the two saws when bucking 20" rounds of oak. A stopwatch might have found a tenth in a cant. 

A longer and wider skirt would add weight, we were attempting to lose weight in the piston a few sentences ago. 

Whether the intake duration being shorter would help I'm not sure, but I think not. The ports being a bit wider might hurt in this instance, you must consider that width adds time/area and we just lowered the jug to get the exhaust down....... 

Remember.........I'm just a guy feeling my way along.....I could be way off here.


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## young (Sep 22, 2012)

bigger high side jet in the carb? :smile2:


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2012)

What kind of compression did you end up with?


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## tree monkey (Sep 22, 2012)

around 200


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## Mastermind (Sep 22, 2012)

tree monkey said:


> around 200



Yeppers.


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 22, 2012)

Nice! I always like to leave something on the table for durability.
This is just where I want to go with one of my 660's.
I do like the idea of a more stable piston in the bore. I guess the ol 066 will be kept aside for a fun saw. Wait till you see the crazy muffler we are making for it. 
The 200 psi compression is right where I'd like to be so running pump gas should be fine.
I would like to drop the piston weight a bit so it will smooth out the engine some on the top end. There are plenty of places to lose some weight off of it without hurting the durability or balance. Window porting the piston is something I don't like to do anyway. I know it crates stress in the pin wall area. It screws up the counter balance and is hell to get it back centered. I want the piston to be right as rain. Most of them are within a half gram from center on out.

Thanks


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2012)

I ended up with 210 PSI on this 395XP with only a .035" popup and .020" squish. Needless to say, I was shocked. I was expecting significantly less than that.


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## Dan_IN_MN (Sep 22, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've only got ten saws to port in the shop.........
> 
> When i first started trying to figure this stuff out most guys were real careful about telling too much. That caused me great amounts of frustration.......I may be wrong but I think that being completely transparent is a good thing. People tend to want to know what is going to be done to their engine.......if I don't post pictures of my work they won't have a clue what I'm doing. The engine in this thread is a typical woods port for me. I almost always increase compression by cutting squish because I gain more control over the port timing......many times the saw leaves here with less exhaust duration or lower transfers than it had stock.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you have a very good and caring wife!

I've had saws on the table, the only thing that was complained about was the smell. I don't understand! Isn't that a good smell? :msp_biggrinit can get to me too)

OH, Nice build thread!


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 22, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I ended up with 210 PSI on this 395XP with only a .035" popup and .020" squish. Needless to say, I was shocked. I was expecting significantly less than that.



That sounds like it would be one very strong runner.


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## komatsuvarna (Sep 22, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I ended up with 210 PSI on this 395XP with only a .035" popup and .020" squish. Needless to say, I was shocked. I was expecting significantly less than that.



Yep, it doesnt take much on the 395s. Mine was about 185 with no gasket and .030 squish if i remember right. A cut chamber will get close to 230! :msp_scared:


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> That sounds like it would be one very strong runner.



Idles like a BBC with a cam and has throttle response like a 346


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2012)

Naked Arborist said:


> That sounds like it would be one very strong runner.



I hope so! It's going to the same guy this MS660 is that Randy just built, lol. I can't be having the competition show me up ya know


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## Mastermind (Sep 22, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I hope so! It's going to the same guy this MS660 is that Randy just built, lol. I can't be having the competition show me up ya know



If the 660 beats it you have done something very wrong.


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## blsnelling (Sep 22, 2012)

The 395 sounds good without adding compression, but even better with 210 PSI. It's all your fault Randy

[video=youtube_share;29dkF0qyBGU]http://youtu.be/29dkF0qyBGU[/video]


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

Sounds like a good runner brad!

Either of you guys ever took an oem cylinder and bored it out and used an aftermarket big bore piston? This has been running through my head lately, and I just might have to try it out.


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

On an 066 by the way. :msp_thumbup:


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> Sounds like a good runner brad!
> 
> Either of you guys ever took an oem cylinder and bored it out and used an aftermarket big bore piston? This has been running through my head lately, and I just might have to try it out.



[video=youtube;eXHTVS_wuSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHTVS_wuSo&feature=plcp[/video]


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> [video=youtube;eXHTVS_wuSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHTVS_wuSo&feature=plcp[/video]





Ok, mine wouldn't have to be that extreme!


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## mtrees (Sep 23, 2012)

I just can't wait to play with them both!!!!!


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> Ok, mine wouldn't have to be that extreme!



I have zero skills as an operator with that type of saw. It's just the way it is. 

Also that saw was running out of fuel in the third cut. It caused it to score the piston. 

It's undergoing a revamp at this time with a welded intake block and a huge kart engine carb.


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## Nitroman (Sep 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> If you mean on this saw Steve......it's tuned to 13,800.



That saw sounds almost exactly like my 394, but mine doesn't have that annoying whine.


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## Nitroman (Sep 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I ended up with 210 PSI on this 395XP with only a .035" popup and .020" squish. Needless to say, I was shocked. I was expecting significantly less than that.



Now that is something I'm looking forward too in my 394 AND my 3120. Local Polaris dealer has a 16-gallon drum of 117 octane race gas I could mix 50:50 with my beloved AVgas.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Nitroman said:


> Now that is something I'm looking forward too in my 394 AND my 3120. Local Polaris dealer has a 16-gallon drum of 117 octane race gas I could mix 50:50 with my beloved AVgas.



I'm testing compression on your piston with my 394. What do you think compression should be?????


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## Nitroman (Sep 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm testing compression on your piston with my 394. What do you think compression should be?????



I dunno...my 394 is apart right now or I would run out and slap the compression tester on it. If the comp is insane I'll just take a big ole file to the top and file away at that hump.


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

what fuel\oil you guys running at 200 psi? I have an 046 with 205 psi, 100 octane with redline oil. Just curious


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## blsnelling (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> what fuel\oil you guys running at 200 psi? I have an 046 with 205 psi, 100 octane with redline oil. Just curious



Premium pump gas with full synthetic oil at 32:1. That's what I advise to all my customers. I wouldn't go any less than 40:1.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Nitroman said:


> I dunno...my 394 is apart right now or I would run out and slap the compression tester on it. If the comp is insane I'll just take a big ole file to the top and file away at that hump.



I've got both pistons done and boxed up Roger. I had a 394 apart and would have tested compression but the rings were 1.5mm in your piston and I only have 1.2mm rings here. 



blsnelling said:


> Premium pump gas with full synthetic oil at 32:1. That's what I advise to all my customers. I wouldn't go any less than 40:1.



I agree completely.


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## parrisw (Sep 23, 2012)

I use the gas I drain out of the scrap cars at work, and the cheapest walmart oil I can get my hands on. Some times I just use SAE 30 and just dump a couple glugs into the chainsaw gas tank.


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## LowVolt (Sep 23, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Premium pump gas with full synthetic oil at 32:1. That's what I advise to all my customers. I wouldn't go any less than 40:1.



Is this what you guys recommend for any ported saw?


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

you dont think that pump gas is a little low for that much compresion? I have probably run at least thirty tanks through that 046 at 50:1 but it was always 96 or 100 octane


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

LowVolt said:


> Is this what you guys recommend for any ported saw?



I'm even more picky. I use non-ethanol pump gas with Belray H1R @ 36:1


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> you dont think that pump gas is a little low for that much compresion? I have probably run at least thirty tanks through that 046 at 50:1 but it was always 96 or 100 octane



As strange as this may sound, you don't need that much octane for a two-stroke engine. At 12,000 RPM the burn rate on 100LL is too slow for complete combustion.


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

I bought that fuel for the 046 but ended up running it the 066 bb with 160psi. After probably 15 tanks or so I pulled the muffler and jug. Muffler was dry and brownish black. The piston had a nice brown wash on the top, so I would think the it would have to be burning all the fuel.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> I bought that fuel for the 046 but ended up running it the 066 bb with 160psi. After probably 15 tanks or so I pulled the muffler and jug. Muffler was dry and brownish black. The piston had a nice brown wash on the top, so I would think the it would have to be burning all the fuel.



Cool :msp_thumbup:


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## wigglesworth (Sep 23, 2012)

Deets066 said:


> you dont think that pump gas is a little low for that much compresion? I have probably run at least thirty tanks through that 046 at 50:1 but it was always 96 or 100 octane



My little 4 cube Partner has 220psi and I run 87 non-ethanol with no problems....


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## young (Sep 23, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> My little 4 cube Partner has 220psi and I run 87 non-ethanol with no problems....



*no problems....* when used with bar slick'em oil.


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## jropo (Sep 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'm even more picky. I use non-ethanol pump gas with Belray H1R @ 36:1



They have alot of products, why do you like this over some of the other oils that Belray offers, or other brands.


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> My little 4 cube Partner has 220psi and I run 87 non-ethanol with no problems....



The 100LL fuel has been tested by you and I both with no gains.......and in my mind I think the engines ran better with 87.


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

wigglesworth said:


> My little 4 cube Partner has 220psi and I run 87 non-ethanol with no problems....




I don't blame ya, I wouldn't put any more than 87 in a partner either! HAHA jk


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## Mastermind (Sep 23, 2012)

jropo said:


> They have alot of products, why do you like this over some of the other oils that Belray offers, or other brands.



There was a RC airplane guru that did very extensive testing of a great many oils. H1R was the clear winner......good enough to end the oil testing for me.


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## Deets066 (Sep 23, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The 100LL fuel has been tested by you and I both with no gains.......and in my mind I think the engines ran better with 87.




I havent done any testing with fuel, I just try to run the best that I can. Its a lot of money and time to get them to run the way that they do to dump any old fuel in them. But I'm sure it would be fine as you guys said, just a piece of mind for me.


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## Nitroman (Sep 24, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've got both pistons done and boxed up Roger. I had a 394 apart and would have tested compression but the rings were 1.5mm in your piston and I only have 1.2mm rings here.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree completely.



Sounds good buddy, can't wait to get them in!


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 24, 2012)

Running multi-blend synthetic at 45-1 summer and 50-1 winter on pump 92. I have ran pump 87 but the faster burn turns up the temps in hot dry weather pulling long bars in hardwoods. Still need to hit them with some AV fuel or a good lead additive once again before they get to firewood workout. Thinking about trying some Link-ite in one to see if it cleans up anything before a re-ring job this fall.

Has anyone tried Z-max or equivalent in a saw or air cooled engine yet?


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## aikiman2000 (Sep 24, 2012)

*hey every one, my first time posting. saw question time!*

I have 2 saws right now a 1999 husqvarna 55 20" bar 3/8 full skip chizel, its on motor #2. but my old faithfull friend is definately wearing thin.....and ive out grown her to be honest!...lol

i recieved a 2nd saw free on craigslist, in parts serial # 8350998 and its a 254. im assuming the saw is 1988 vs 1998? it just says 252 not 254 se or xp. needs new bearings bar chain and sprocket.

if its a 1988 what were the power out put differances between old and more modern 254 xp?
should i replace the jug/piston?

i plan on widening the intake boot, muff mod and possibly a port job.
what kida power do you think she will have in the end?

any tips advice ect?

i will run eather a 20" or 18" bar .325 chain.......i learned that 3/8 took alot of juice from my 55 (used to be 20" .325)

thanks H-man in alaska


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## Majorpayne (Sep 24, 2012)

Another oil thread?


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## aikiman2000 (Sep 24, 2012)

why am i still up????????


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## imagineero (Sep 24, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> Premium pump gas with full synthetic oil at 32:1. That's what I advise to all my customers. I wouldn't go any less than 40:1.



FWIW, I've got one of your 660's and it's been run daily for about a year now, have put well over 500 tanks through it (probably closer to 1,000) under heavy loads in summer with a 36" bar full comp chain in aussie hardwoods. I run 50:1 pump fuel (98 octane non ethanol in aus) with stihl dyno oil in all my saws. I had the muff off it a couple weeks back and had a peek in the barrel. Clean as a whistle, no marks or scoring. Muff also very clean with no carbon buildup.

A lot of guys seem to run their big saws on 40:1 or 32:1 here. All it seems to do is gum up the works.

Shaun


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## Mastermind (Sep 24, 2012)

aikiman2000 said:


> I have 2 saws right now a 1999 husqvarna 55 20" bar 3/8 full skip chizel, its on motor #2. but my old faithfull friend is definately wearing thin.....and ive out grown her to be honest!...lol
> 
> i recieved a 2nd saw free on craigslist, in parts serial # 8350998 and its a 254. im assuming the saw is 1988 vs 1998? it just says 252 not 254 se or xp. needs new bearings bar chain and sprocket.
> 
> ...



I'm not real familiar with that series. It might be best to start a thread in the CS forum. :msp_wink:


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## Mastermind (Sep 24, 2012)

imagineero said:


> FWIW, I've got one of your 660's and it's been run daily for about a year now, have put well over 500 tanks through it (probably closer to 1,000) under heavy loads in summer with a 36" bar full comp chain in aussie hardwoods. I run 50:1 pump fuel (98 octane non ethanol in aus) with stihl dyno oil in all my saws. I had the muff off it a couple weeks back and had a peek in the barrel. Clean as a whistle, no marks or scoring. Muff also very clean with no carbon buildup.
> 
> A lot of guys seem to run their big saws on 40:1 or 32:1 here. All it seems to do is gum up the works.
> 
> Shaun



It's not the size of the saw that makes me mix my fuel the way I do. It's the oil I use and the amount of compression I like.


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## pioneerguy600 (Sep 24, 2012)

So when are we going to hear about some porting tips on the MS 660 ???....LOL


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## HEAVY FUEL (Sep 24, 2012)

From what I gather base it on your type of use.... if your off & on the throttle alot, like limbing, 50:1 is fine. If your running high rpm for long periods of time, like bucking large rounds, milling, 32:1is better option. Made sense to me. As far as 066 top end I've seen 064 top ends that have turned out just as strong.


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## parrisw (Sep 24, 2012)

I run 40:1 Sabre pro.


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## tolman_paul (Sep 24, 2012)

Mastermind™ said:


> The 100LL fuel has been tested by you and I both with no gains.......and in my mind I think the engines ran better with 87.



It's a fact that as you raise the octane, the btu/gallon of the fuel drops. Another way of saying that higher octane fuel will produce less power.

Now, the reason to run higher octane fuel is that as you increase the compression ratio to get more power, lower octane fuel will detonate, so to keep the piston and head from getting beat to death by detonation, you need to go to higher octane fuel. If your modded engine can run on 87 octane with no detonation, than that will be the highest power fuel you can use. If you start getting detonation, then it's time to up the octane. Also as an engine heats up, detonation occurs more easily. So while you might be able to cut a few slabs on a cool fall day with no problems on 87 octane, if you're doing a prolonged run in higher ambient temps the saw will be more prone to detonate.


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## jropo (Sep 24, 2012)

I like the trade mark, MM. Good Idea!:msp_thumbsup:


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## dwraisor (Sep 24, 2012)

Mastermind™ said:


> The HD2 filter is a performance enhancer all by itself. I've seen a 500rpm increase by just replacing the old filter with one of these.



Curious, do you run (or have you tested the hd2 with) the pre-filter? I would be concerned that because the 660 lacks the closed airinduction of the 441 or 261 that the pleated filter would fill w/ chips and be difficuylt to clean.

dw


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## Mastermind (Sep 25, 2012)

dwraisor said:


> Curious, do you run (or have you tested the hd2 with) the pre-filter? I would be concerned that because the 660 lacks the closed airinduction of the 441 or 261 that the pleated filter would fill w/ chips and be difficuylt to clean.
> 
> dw



Guys that use these saws every day have complained that the HD2 filter is bad to fill with crap. I've not used one with a pre-filter though.


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## dwraisor (Sep 25, 2012)

Mãstermiñd said:


> Guys that use these saws every day have complained that the HD2 filter is bad to fill with crap. I've not used one with a pre-filter though.



Thanks, yes I would expect they fill up, but wonder what (if any) the gain would be w/ the prefilter, of if it is even worth the time...

May have to throw the tach on my 660 and play a little music-filters to see aht it changes.

dw


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## imagineero (Sep 26, 2012)

dwraisor said:


> Curious, do you run (or have you tested the hd2 with) the pre-filter? I would be concerned that because the 660 lacks the closed airinduction of the 441 or 261 that the pleated filter would fill w/ chips and be difficuylt to clean.
> 
> dw



It's very good at getting clogged up with crap. I run a full time tree service and most of my big saws have the HD2 filters, including the 660. I kind of feel the old kind was better. I didn't notice any performance increase going from HD to HD2, but I did end up spending a lot more time cleaning them out. With the HD filter I used to just tap it out a couple times a day. With the HD2, I tap it out a couple times a day, then in the shop at the end of the day while sharpening I get into it with compressed air which gets some of the crap out, then with a bent screw driver to scrape it out. Every day. My saws are all well sharp, with rakers set at about 5.5 degrees on the bigger bars and 7 degrees on the mid size bars. They throw chips, not dust. I think people get too excited about finding some fine dust on the inside of their filter. 

I think the air routing on future saws is going to make a huge difference. I have the HD2 filter on a couple 441cm's, and they only need cleaning out every couple of months. Even after a couple months it's less than what would be in the 660 from a few hours.

Shaun


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## imagineero (Sep 26, 2012)

:arg:


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## Mastermind (Sep 26, 2012)

imagineero said:


> :arg:



Not at all. This is the sort of real world feedback guys like me need to hear. I build saws....I don't run them everyday. :msp_wink:


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## deye223 (Sep 26, 2012)

stihlman441 should be along soon with pics of his prefilters i have seen them before and looks like they work 
wonders


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## mtrees (Sep 26, 2012)

Mailman fairy just showed up!!
Thank You Randy!!
Off tomorrow and will hit the wood.


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## Mastermind (Sep 26, 2012)

mtrees said:


> Mailman fairy just showed up!!
> Thank You Randy!!
> Off tomorrow and will hit the wood.



Excellent. :msp_thumbup:


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 26, 2012)

Here ya go


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## mtrees (Sep 26, 2012)

Couldn't help myself left work early. All that I can say is Boom Chaka Laka!!!! It's just mean Randy Thank You!!


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## dwraisor (Sep 26, 2012)

imagineero said:


> It's very good at getting clogged up with crap. I run a full time tree service and most of my big saws have the HD2 filters, including the 660. I kind of feel the old kind was better. I didn't notice any performance increase going from HD to HD2, but I did end up spending a lot more time cleaning them out. With the HD filter I used to just tap it out a couple times a day. With the HD2, I tap it out a couple times a day, then in the shop at the end of the day while sharpening I get into it with compressed air which gets some of the crap out, then with a bent screw driver to scrape it out. Every day. My saws are all well sharp, with rakers set at about 5.5 degrees on the bigger bars and 7 degrees on the mid size bars. They throw chips, not dust. I think people get too excited about finding some fine dust on the inside of their filter.
> 
> I think the air routing on future saws is going to make a huge difference. I have the HD2 filter on a couple 441cm's, and they only need cleaning out every couple of months. Even after a couple months it's less than what would be in the 660 from a few hours.
> 
> Shaun



Exactly what I figured. I know Stihl makes a prefilter as it came stock on my 660 w/ the HD1 and it fits the HD2, just wasn't sure if the performance would be there.



Stihlman441 said:


> Here ya go




Likey likey... PNs? or a link to the thread where the PN are discussed..... 


dw


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## dwraisor (Sep 26, 2012)

dwraisor said:


> PNs? or a link to the thread where the PN are discussed.....



Scratch that... $6.95, ain't bad fort the Outwears, even comes in purple. 

dw


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## srcarr52 (Sep 26, 2012)

dwraisor said:


> Scratch that... $6.95, ain't bad fort the Outwears, even comes in purple.
> 
> dw



I think a prefilter would at least keep the large chips from getting embedded in the filter. Anything will help since a 066 air intake couldn't get any worse short of a snorkel to the clutch cover. 

I find it particularly funny that Stihl is the only manufacturer to have to vacuum reference their carbs (top of diaphragm references to inside air filter) to work around a rich mixture due to clogging air filters, that is cut-off saw technology.


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## komatsuvarna (Sep 26, 2012)

srcarr52 said:


> I think a prefilter would at least keep the large chips from getting embedded in the filter. Anything will help since a 066 air intake couldn't get any worse short of a snorkel to the clutch cover.
> 
> *I find it particularly funny that Stihl is the only manufacturer to have to vacuum reference their carbs (top of diaphragm references to inside air filter) to work around a rich mixture due to clogging air filters, that is cut-off saw technology.*


*
*


Yep, Stihl needed that technology on chainsaws!!




BTW, HOORAY 395xp! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## srcarr52 (Sep 26, 2012)

komatsuvarna said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> Yep, Stihl needed that technology on chainsaws!!
> ...



I'm a big fan of the 394XP, haven't gotten my mits (or my Foredom) on a 395 yet. Besides for the hot start problem (which I think I fixed with a different heat range plug) I haven't found anything to complain about with the 394.


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## tree monkey (Sep 26, 2012)

srcarr52 said:


> I find it particularly funny that Stihl is the only manufacturer to have to vacuum reference their carbs (top of diaphragm references to inside air filter) to work around a rich mixture due to clogging air filters, that is cut-off saw technology.



husky's have it too


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## Stihlman441 (Sep 27, 2012)

For 440,441,460,650,660,880

STIHL MS441 20-2471 - Outerwears, Inc. - Original manufacturer of Pre-Filters & Shockwears


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## mp5n (Sep 27, 2012)

*Pre filter option*

I used to race Dirt track bikes growing up. With these bikes we ran K&N filters just hanging off the carbs. A lot of people would buy a few pairs of women’s silk stockings and stretch them over the filters to keep the big clumps out of the pleats. They were just the right mesh size to not restrict the air flow. You can cut them in lengths and get a lot from 1 pair and just throw them out when they were used up. I’m guessing the same approach would work on saws that use the Husky 394 or Stihl 660 style of filters.

MP5N


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## Bieber (Apr 19, 2013)

blsnelling said:


> Premium pump gas with full synthetic oil at 32:1. That's what I advise to all my customers. I wouldn't go any less than 40:1.



...and what about the stihl motomix? Can that be run with 200psi or a ported saw (not added compression) aswell?


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## buck futter (Apr 20, 2013)

tolman_paul said:


> As anyone who's worked on two smokes knows, it takes much more than a degree wheel and a moto tool to make an engine builder.
> 
> But it's not just the investment in various hand pieces and burrs, it just takes time to learn how to layout a cylinder to port it, how the burrs behave in the cut, and no matter how many ports you've ground you'll have an oh sheep dip moment when a burr gets away from you and ruins a cylinder you've spent hours porting.
> 
> ...




I'd love to see your set up on how you used the Makita die grinder. I have a Makita just never thought it was possible


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 21, 2013)

The pre filters sort of work,this is a 461 after 4 tanks of fuel.


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## Trx250r180 (Apr 21, 2013)

Stihlman441 said:


> The pre filters sort of work,this is a 461 after 4 tanks of fuel.



What kind of wood is making that much dust in your filter,mine look nothing that plugged with 4 tanks


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## Stihlman441 (Apr 21, 2013)

Dry Yellowbox


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## naturelover (Apr 21, 2013)

What's the intake look like? 

Anything getting through?


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


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