# Strange midline knot for pulling?



## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

Saw a solo climber taking down a tree so I stopped to offer help. Large double leader- he climbed and pieced out one and felled the remainder into an open area. So he sets a line in the top and runs it down to another tree as an anchor in the direction of the fall. He tensions the line to help guide/pull the tree. Now how he tensions the line was strange to me. - instead of a midline knot he grabbed a bight and twists it about 9-10 turns, then takes another bight thru and again making several links like a daisy chain. Runs the end around the tree and back to this and pulls the line tight. 

Anyone ever heard of this before? Sorry if my explanation is confusing I hate trying to type a lot on my phone. I've never heard this method talked about before so just thought I'd bring it up for conversation. He's been climbing 20+ years and said an old timer taught him that when he first started instead of using a bowline.


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## shutup-n-cut (Nov 21, 2013)

Butterfly knot? That is what I will use midline when rigging a 3 to 1 system.


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

No it's not a butterfly knot and it's not knotted in any way it's just a twisted bight of rope with a few more bights daisy chained to it. Once it's released it all just pulls apart. He showed me how to tie it if someone wants a pic I could probably get some up this evening.


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## kyle goddard (Nov 21, 2013)

Id like to see a pic.


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## JBA (Nov 21, 2013)

I saw a guy using a knot similar to what you are describing. He tied it so fast I couldn't keep up with what he did. I know someone who might know. Will try to find out the name tonight


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## JBA (Nov 21, 2013)

Can't find the name but my uncle says he will show me how to tie one. After that I will try to find it in the Ashley book of knots


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## jwilly (Nov 21, 2013)

It was always referred to as a "poor man's come along" by the guys I used to work with. You can create a tremendous amount of pull.


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## woodchuck357 (Nov 21, 2013)

I am having trouble finding the utube, but there is one of a Mexican dude showing how to tie the "truckers hitch" my Grandpappy taught me. It sounds like what you described. It is simple to learn, easy to tie, never slips and never takes more than a tug to completely untie.

found a site that shows this truckers hitch http://dimview.org/knots/


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

jwilly said:


> It was always referred to as a "poor man's come along" by the guys I used to work with. You can create a tremendous amount of pull.


That's exactly how he described it, said he uses it as a come along. And it was so fast that he had to slow down and do it a few times to show me.


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

Just looked it up it's not a truckers hitch but similar concept. That looks helpful tho I'll have to remember that one


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)




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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

Ok here it is. It's done loosely just for clarity. Pic 1 Bight twisted. Pic 2 and 3 are two more bights daisy chained. Pic 4 the running end around the tree and back thru to pull and tension the line


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 21, 2013)

My poor man's come-a-long is a bowline on a bight. I pass the tensioning rope through the three rope eyes.


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## woodchuck357 (Nov 21, 2013)

That's it, joezilla11, but you don't need that many twists or multiple bights pushed thru. Another one made in the rope before it goes around the anchor, then the bitter end passed thru both loops (first thru the one made first) makes for more advantage.


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

Thanks woodchuck I had to try that and am happy to say I just pulled my kitchen table effortlessly across the floor ha!


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## joezilla11 (Nov 21, 2013)

Nm it is just like the truckers hitch in ur link woodchuck. Here's another, the last minute of the video pretty much sums it up lol


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 22, 2013)

I also tie the truckers hitch using an Alpine Butterfly or a Figure Eight on a bight as the midline knot.;


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## joezilla11 (Nov 22, 2013)

MasterBlaster said:


> My poor man's come-a-long is a bowline on a bight. I pass the tensioning rope through the three rope eyes.


Is there a benefit to using all three vs 2? That's the second time I've heard of that


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## MasterBlaster (Nov 22, 2013)

It spreads out the load out over the three ropes, making it stronger. I've used a one eye version and broke the rope.


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## woodchuck357 (Dec 14, 2013)

MasterBlaster said:


> My poor man's come-a-long is a bowline on a bight. I pass the tensioning rope through the three rope eyes.


 How do you get three loops with a bowline on a bight? When I tie it I get 2 loops.


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## derwoodii (Dec 14, 2013)

down here called a Tarp hitch used to pull down cover canvas tarps over a trucks load.. Tis nuthin new shown to me when i was 15 yold the complex twists method as seen you seems a bit unnecessary but if it works so then carry on. I often use one to direct a tree to where needed I perfected the tie off that allows me to quickly use and not loose the tension put on as i tie off the line


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## woodchuck357 (Dec 15, 2013)

Everything is new/old to someone! My Granpappy taught me different things than someone else's taught them, when we swap ideas all gain, even the lurkers that respond to the adds and pay for this forum.


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## Hoowasat (Dec 15, 2013)

joezilla11 said:


> Nm it is just like the truckers hitch in ur link woodchuck. Here's another, the last minute of the video pretty much sums it up lol



Very good video. The last knot he tied looks a lot like a Blakes Hitch tied to itself. In fact, I've used the Blakes to secure loads being hauled ... and I've used it to tension the line on a tree tied to my truck while I made the back cut.


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## joezilla11 (Dec 15, 2013)

woodchuck357 said:


> How do you get three loops with a bowline on a bight? When I tie it I get 2 loops.



I know a guy who holds the bight with the 2 loops, giving u 3 loops. Rather than snugging up the bight to complete the knot. Not sure if that's what mb was talking about tho


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## beastmaster (Dec 16, 2013)

I'v been using a knotless truckers hitch my whole career. I tie it different then those shown. Probably a hundred ways to do it. I sometimes snap a pulley on it with a caribiner where the rope goes through the loop. When I learned it they said"gives you the strength of ten men." We use to use it for pulling over trees. I'll make a video today showing how I tie my version.

I take that back. it just like in that video. Had to study it for a sec.


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## imagineero (Dec 18, 2013)

It definitely doesn't give you the strength of 10 men ;-) More like maybe 2 men with losses to friction. 

I often use mechanical advantage for pulling it over, and prefer it to winching. It gives much more control over the amount of tension and the speed at which it comes on. It's a great tool for borderline trees that need fine control. I'll usually start with a 3:1 with pulleys, and then stack a 2:1 with progress capture behind that for 6:1, or if needed stack another 2:1 behind that for 12:1. Line angle is an often overlooked and critical aspect of a successful pull over.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 21, 2013)

It always kills me when I see a pic of someone pulling over a tree, they have 150' of rope and only use a little, standing 25ft away! More rope, more leverage. I have the boys max it out. I also use blocks and set up a make shift fiddle block when need be and I have a good anchor tree. Block at the base of anchor, micro connected with a slipknot. If we need more, just add more blocks and micro's.


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## imagineero (Dec 21, 2013)

it's less about the amount of rope and more about the angle of the line. the closer you can get it to flat, the more your effort will translate into side pull. at 45 degrees you're doing ok. At 20 there isn't much going on. At less than 16 you're wasting your time no matter how many guys are pulling on that rope. If you're on a slope then pulling from the uphill side is the best bet. Pulling form the side is second best, and the further away the better. Pulling from the downhill side is a complete waste of time, no matter how far you get away the angle is going to be the same or worse. 

A few times I've set up a remote block from the ground up high in another tree to get a true side pull on a tree. You can haul it up from the ground and retrieve it the same way. A second redirect pulley at the base will let guys get in line to pull on the rope, or make setting up a mechanical advantage system easy. 

It's true that most groundies fail to understand the angle of the line though. It's not unusual to be asking them to get further away on a pull line only to get a response like "the tree won't hit me from here"

Shaun


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 21, 2013)

Yep, when I have them run it out, I am trying to get it to "flat", ur right, all about the angle. I hear ya on the groundie response. I normally reply with a "shut up and do it" The boys know now and just do it.


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## beastmaster (Dec 21, 2013)

A couple years ago I was giving two old double barn pulleys and started using them, often to the groans of rest of the crew. Now even they are asking,'' you got them pulleys'', those old pulleys have saved the day more then once. My Dad use to say work hard or work smart. Using pulleys is working smart. 
I guess I should up grade those pulley though, lots of nice ones out there.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 21, 2013)

In that situation, don't think they would need to be rated, it is after all human power, so I think any old pulley would work, in that application anyways. I have thought about seeing how crazy I could get with it and set up all of my blocks and pulleys for a log dump. But then I think about how much it work it would be just to screw off, I can do that much easier sitting here.


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## yoyoman (Jan 9, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> How do you get three loops with a bowline on a bight? When I tie it I get 2 loops.





In this video at :39 I'm using a three loop bowline. 
I was developing a redirect system for traverses and did not end up using this system but went to a power cord and screw links instead. 



Note from video:
Update This concept is working for me but with the valuable feedback here I have found and made some changes that I think are safer and still gets me what I want in doing traverses and redirects in the tree with a very compact setup. 5.9mm PowerCord by Sterling Rope makes a good line, at 19k and in the basket configuratin I get a good safety factor. Also I am using Maillon Rapide Oval Quick Linkd to avoid the rope on rope isssue. Thanks ALL The Amsteel is dedicated to a pruning speedline now.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 9, 2014)

I doubt the loops made that way will share the load evenly, but thanks for the edification! Again!


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## millbilly (Jan 23, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> How do you get three loops with a bowline on a bight? When I tie it I get 2 loops.


 I only get 2 too


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## yoyoman (Jan 23, 2014)

millbilly said:


> I only get 2 too


So does that add up to 4 or for?


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## yoyoman (Jan 23, 2014)

millbilly said:


> I only get 2 too




sorry about the black rope on white sheets I'm out of town. It really is a knot, I think best suited for a multiple anchor configuration, as it is difficult, as was pointed out, to get the loops exactly the same.


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## millbilly (Jan 24, 2014)

yoyoman said:


> View attachment 329616
> yte
> sorry about the black rope on white sheets I'm out of town. It really is a knot, I think best suited for a multiple anchor configuration, as it is difficult, as was pointed out, to get the loops exactly the same.


That's not a bowline on a bight. I don't know what it is. Kinda reminds me of the ole hatchet knot, the one where you need a hatchet to untie it.


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## yoyoman (Jan 24, 2014)

millbilly said:


> That's not a bowline on a bight. I don't know what it is. Kinda reminds me of the ole hatchet knot, the one where you need a hatchet to untie it.


You are right, this is a 3 loop bowline and it comes from a bowline on a bite. 
Woodchuck357 asked how to get three loops FROM a bowline on a bite.


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## millbilly (Jan 24, 2014)

yoyoman said:


> You are right, this is a 3 loop bowline and it comes from a bowline on a bite.
> Woodchuck357 asked how to get three loops FROM a bowline on a bite.


 
That there knot be called a Triple Figure-Eight Loop. Had to look it up.


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## yoyoman (Jan 24, 2014)

millbilly said:


> I only get 2 too


Here is the 3 loop bowline on the left and the 3 loop figure 8 on the right.
Fig8 is a little bulkier and IMO may not be as secure if the third loop fails.
Bowline may be more difficult to get the loops the same size.


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