# Let's talk about hacks/ ethics we should all have



## Valandscaper (Mar 24, 2014)

Ok I do tree work part time. Iv always wanted to own and operate my own business and I have been fascinated with free work since the first time I saw a climber working. I'm a pretty young guy 25. I am insured and am smart enough to know my limitations. I climb for myself and have 2 groundies. Iv got a few friends with tree businesses that I ask questions when I need to, and a contract climber that I hire in when there is a tree outta my league. I have a full time job that right now I have to keep I can't afford to jump ship but hope to build to full time. Here's my problem. The climbing schools I have looked at all require full time employment in the industry so for me it = no classes. I do my best to make sure I'm not labeled as a hack. I price fairly I don't go try to under cut everyone. I'm out here to build my business and donit fairly And ethically. And I feel part of that is proper training but I can't get that because it at least appears that this industry isnt welcoming to people like me. Can anyone elaborate on this for me. I'm trying to do this as right as is possible for me but not being able to take training classes or ISA tests and studies it is kinda frustrating.


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## Hoowasat (Mar 24, 2014)

Well, you'll get no competition from me in these parts. I've limited my amateur "hack" services to friends, coworkers, and family ... yet I have a backlog of tree work. It's amazing how many "unofficial" tree service workers there are around here. After a good storm or mild hurricane, I know some supervisors & managers who will take a week off from their regular 9-to-5 in order to capitalize on the emergent tree removals.


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## ATH (Mar 24, 2014)

You don't need to take an ISA test to do things ethically and fairly. You are or you are not. Those are choices you have to make every day.

I would say that good training is part of fairness to your clients though...they deserve somebody who knows what they are doing. I would say that STARTS with knowing about trees. If I am hiring you, I don't care how well you climb...I care that you know how to take care of my trees. If it takes you 6 hours and another guy 3 hours because they are better climber than you, as long as you aren't charging double to do the same job I don't care. Who has taken better care of teh tree is what matters.

They don't require anything to go to ISA meetings do they? Join the local chapter and go to as many meetings and trainings as you can. Go to the tree climbing competitions with the purpose to learning something. What trainings are you looking to do that you can't do without full time tree care experience? There are some that just should be that way...but there are plenty of others that are not.

There are many, many books that can teach a lot of that. You can learn a lot about climbing from videos and books too...but you really need to be in a tree to get better at that. Same with caring for the trees - but you can learn a higher % of that from books. What are you needing to learn. Maybe we can come up with a reading list to help get you going.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 24, 2014)

I should explain that I consider a hack to be the uninsured guy that cuts all our prices in half and lies about his inshurance. Although some of yall may consider me a hack I'm not sure. I'm also looking for your opinion of part time tree guys.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 24, 2014)

I was looking to take some climbing and rigging classes. Techniques/ climb systems. I climb on a Blake's because that what I know and I feel safe with although I'm sure there are many better options. I learned a lot from YouTube and low level practice as funny as that sounds it has really helped.


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## Hoowasat (Mar 24, 2014)

Testing your technique low and slow is always good, and especially so if you're testing new techniques learned via YouTube.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 24, 2014)

Acrtinc.com they have an upcoming advanced class for climbing and rigging. It's in June in ohio


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## ATH (Mar 24, 2014)

I consider "hacks" as people who hack-up trees. Sure...they tend to be the guys without insurance and cut-rate prices.

I don't care if you are full time or part time. I don't care how much you charge. If a client is dumb enough to hire you without insurance...I am not too sure that I even care if you have insurance.

If you take time to do things well, and pay for insurance, you will tend to come in line on pricing because that is what it takes....so I don't worry.

Sure, I am upset and scratch my head when I see unrepairable damage done to trees. But I know that people who saw that happen will not call the person that did that. In reality, for the most part, the "hacks" are serving a certain clientele who only want the low price and ask for their tree to be topped. So, educating clients is the key in my mind.

Quick story: I had a guy call a few years ago and asked "how much to trim a maple tree?". I explain that is hard to know. He says "can you come look...to tell you the truth, I have a buddy who is will top them for me and I just wanted to make sure the price was in line" I explain why topping is a bad idea. He asked if I can come out to look at his tree/explain on site what I was trying to explain. It was the end of the day...I called my wife "I am probably wasting an hour to go look at these trees...but what the heck". That ended up with a $600 job. He has had me back to prune 3 or 4 more trees and plant another 3. Customer educated. "Hack" lost a job. Trees are in good shape.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 24, 2014)

And there's nothing stopping u from say taking the climber specialist test for the isa. They want 18 months experience- as long as u have an invoice or something to show uve done work going back that far.


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 24, 2014)

Valandscaper said:


> I should explain that I consider a hack to be the uninsured guy that cuts all our prices in half and lies about his inshurance. Although some of yall may consider me a hack I'm not sure. I'm also looking for your opinion of part time tree guys.



A 'Hack' don't know tree biology, they 'Hack'.
Jeff


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## Valandscaper (Mar 25, 2014)

There are two reasons I bring up the hack subject. Number 1 is there is a company here locally that advertises "licensed and insured" when in fact they are not. I have been behind them on 2 jobs where theyvhave been thrown off for lack of providing ins info. When cornered with the truth by a HO they fall back on trying to lower the price. They advertise via CL just like i do and in my mind at least it makes us all look bad and pushes clients to call one of the large companies around here. The second is there was a guy a year or so ago that went off about part timers posting in this forum and referred to anyone that dosent do the work full time as "hacks that are stealing work from the ones trying to make an honest living" . I don't know or pretend to know tree biology it is sompthing imam trying to learn as well. Iv turned down nearly every pruning job iv been called for and just been honest with the customer Letting them know I wasn't comfortable doing the job because I'm not sure of the effects it will have to the tree. I stuck with removals for now. And for the 18 month requirement for ISA I emailed them about the requirements I saw on their website and was told i need to provide invoices from 3 years.


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## joezilla11 (Mar 25, 2014)

Here is a reply I received from them hope it helps. I say just get it and send it in.

"Verifying is the most important thing we have to do to get you qualified for the Tree Worker Climber Specialist exam. If you do not have documentation to prove your 18 months, then you will need to ask your customers to write a reference letter for you. You will need two of them to show 18 months. One from 2012 and one from 2013. They need to state your name or business name, the type of work you did and the date. You can send the letters with a completed application. "


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## Valandscaper (Mar 25, 2014)

Yeah at this point I agree. It's funny that is completely not what they sent me but hey whatever works I'm just trying to learn and take the right steps.


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## treesmith (Mar 25, 2014)

There's far more to trees than cutting them, hacks don't tend to know or care, quite often they'll make stuff up or repeat wrong information to make them sound good.

A thirst for knowledge, constant learning and the determination to do the best you can is what separates arborists from hacks. Liking trees helps too

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 25, 2014)

Hacks are people who do anything for money, cut every corner possible and are too cool for school. Most of the time they are bad drunks or druggies, who will price jobs, not at what they should be, but at what they need for the day. They poke fun at those who do it right, who wear PPE and go small to protect instead of going big to go home. They are the same ones missing fingers, have multiple court dates, long criminal history's with prison records and have no drivers license because of to many DWI's. Part time, full time, weekend warriors, it does not matter. As long as u do it right, do it safe and you are honest with yourself and your clients about your capabilities, you will be good. Being a CA does not determine if you are a hack or not. I know several CA's that got the cert, just for advertisement. They still take no true interest in the care of trees. They do horrible work, lion tail the hell out of trees or prune every thing up to about 30ft, leaving huge chunks of deadwood right above their work. They will do anything a client wants. They may want a tree topped, and instead of educating the client, they sign the deal. Even have made the statement on why they don't letter their trucks " I don't want anybody knowing who did this work" as if it is a business plan. I also know several guys who are not CA's that I consider mentors. They never bothered with the test, but are epic level Tree Jedi. It all comes down to the work ya do and how ya do it. 
Keep in mind, as I often have to remind myself. No matter what, there will always be hacks. No matter what, they will never go away. This is bad for the trees and for our industry, but, hacks make it pretty easy to look good. I barely advertise. I have my site and I do a direct mailer to specific hoods. I put a add on CL just to piss off the hacks. I have a great rep....... sometimes I get a bad rap for not being to responsive to first time callers, there is only 24 hrs in a day after all. But as far as work goes, my rep is beyond reproach. Because of this and because there are many hacks in my area, I have more work than I can handle. I often get told that "we didnt realize that there are tree guys like you" Year by year, my client list grows. Most don't go to bid, they just call and tell me what they want. Tho, I still loose some to price. But in this economy, you will have that. 

Never lower your standard to raise your average. I walk away from a lot of work. Homeowner's that don't want to hear it, just want it topped or trimmed in a jacked up way, I am not interested. 

READ! There are many resources out there that you can exploit. Become a member of the ISA and the TCIA. They will send you all kinds of good info. The biggest thing, is to learn tree biology, once you understand how they work, everything else will come together. 

There are a bazillion books out there. So you can get lost trying to figure out which ones are best before dropping a bunch of coin on them. Here are a few that I have read and I know many others on here have aswell. Not saying that these are the only ones, but these are the ones that seem to be the favorites.
1. Tree Climbers Companion - Jepson
2. Best Practices: Tree Pruning
3. Art and Science of Practical Rigging-Arbormaster
4. A New Tree Biology-Shigo
5. Arboriculture-Harris
6. Modern Arboriculture- Shigo
7. Diseases of Tree and Shrubs- Sinclair
8. Abiotic Disorders of Landscape Plants. 

If you where to read all these, by the time you got thru them, you will be past the time requirements for the test and would probably run thru it pretty quick. 
You can claim or say that you are a Arborist without being certified. As long as you look at the definition and it fits. 
As far as learning the way of the Jedi, that can only be taught in the field, up a tree. Gotta find that guy who will spend the time to teach. You can learn a lot from the net, places like this, vids and webinars. But nothing beats getting grilled by a Pro Arb on a rope.

Moving this to 101


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## kyle goddard (Mar 25, 2014)

So would you call me a hack? I've been doing this for a long time. On and off since i was nine. Full time since i was 20 or 21. 

Now i did have drug and alcohol problems. I was the guy with lot's of court dates and spent time in jail. However my problems were my problems and work was work. I always tried to do my best. Mind you i did top trees. I didn't know better at the time. 
Im now 27, and im studying for my arb cert. Ive done away with drugs and alcohol and have 28 months clean and sober.
I still have a suspended license, but im blessed with a job that hass looked passed that. Its sux but i have one more year without it.
I cant get a conditional license with a drug charge.


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## kyle goddard (Mar 25, 2014)

I didn't do it or am not in it for the money. 
Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.

Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.


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## kyle goddard (Mar 25, 2014)

I didn't do it or am not in it for the money. 
Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.

Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.


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## beastmaster (Mar 25, 2014)

You can have new trucks, insurance and good gear and still be a hack. What so many homeowners don't seem to understand is it takes a certain level of knowledge and competence to correctly take care of trees. I could build a retainer wall out of block, read a few books from the home depot, but who would you rather have build yours a master mason or me? Doing sub grade work even if your bidding competitive is still sub grade work. You can't tare a tree down and rebuild it though, it takes one hack job to ruin a tree for ever. People have a lot of time invested in their trees, it's a shame they'll let a center piece of there yard that may of taking 25 to 100 years to grow get ruined by some inexperienced fool with a chainsaw.
some are ignorant, and some just greedy and don't care.


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## Valandscaper (Mar 25, 2014)

I got into this for the challenge. Every tree is different each with its own problems and hurdles to overcome. The rigging and climbing techniques are pretty standard but can be adapted in do many ways that it stays interesting. It's hard work no doubt and in sure inexperience just makes it harder but after years of practice and time in the tree it will all be worth it.


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## treeseer (Mar 25, 2014)

Lots of training available; the industry welcomes you! Pruning is not that complicated. read this and see if it makes sense.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 26, 2014)

kyle goddard said:


> So would you call me a hack? I've been doing this for a long time. On and off since i was nine. Full time since i was 20 or 21.
> 
> Now i did have drug and alcohol problems. I was the guy with lot's of court dates and spent time in jail. However my problems were my problems and work was work. I always tried to do my best. Mind you i did top trees. I didn't know better at the time.
> Im now 27, and im studying for my arb cert. Ive done away with drugs and alcohol and have 28 months clean and sober.
> ...


 Again, it is all about the work ya do. Your history only matters if it is current and repetitive, as most of the time, it translates directly to the work. I know many guys with a troubled past, only to overcome it and change their stars. On the other hand, I know many more who choose to stay in that lifestyle. My point was, that those who stay in it, their work often reflects their personal life and vice versa. When your true mission is to make enough to get high, that day, and that's it. The work reflects this. If you took that, as that all who have had shady past, suck, well that was not my intent. I had a rough start up myself. Marines fixed all or..........most of that. And I am not talking about the guy who occasionally burns one or has a couple beers at the end of the day. The guys who wake up wondering how they are going to get that next batch of whatever so they can get "well" is who I am talking about. Also, ya dont have to be a druggie to be a hack. I know several other guys who just suck at tree work. Clean as a whistle, but complete and total hacks. They learned from uncle bubba how to properly prune a maple by cutting of its head, and will argue with you about it. They use spikes on prunes "how else am I going to do it"
A hack does bad work, lies to the client, rips them off, makes no effort to protect and safe guard and tears up the place. Goes big as possible all the time with no concern whatsoever on what it breaks or damages on the way down, only cuts leads because they lack the skill or balls to climb away from the trunk. Stuff like that.

Like beasty said, you can have all the shiny chit in the world, that does not make you a good arb. A guy here, a CA (in title only), just bought a crap load of BIG gear, nice stuff too. He is really trying to make a go of it. But! He still does crack head work. Has no concept of good work, thinks crane pics that flip over and around are good shots and lion tailing is a proper pruning practice. Still a hack. I just did a removal at a house that he did a ash prune the year before. HO has no clue about trees, but knew enough to be pretty upset at the ash's appearance. The worst lion tail ever! This is a huge ash, had lots to work with and could have been a freakin awesome tree. Had a great structure, just need to be deadwooded and a little live tissue removed. Now it looks like a umbrella. 40ft leads, bare as hell. Now it has thousands of epis growing that make it look like it has fur.


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## old_soul (Mar 26, 2014)

Valandscaper said:


> There are two reasons I bring up the hack subject. Number 1 is there is a company here locally that advertises "licensed and insured" when in fact they are not. I have been behind them on 2 jobs where theyvhave been thrown off for lack of providing ins info. When cornered with the truth by a HO they fall back on trying to lower the price. They advertise via CL just like i do and in my mind at least it makes us all look bad and pushes clients to call one of the large companies around here. The second is there was a guy a year or so ago that went off about part timers posting in this forum and referred to anyone that dosent do the work full time as "hacks that are stealing work from the ones trying to make an honest living" . I don't know or pretend to know tree biology it is sompthing imam trying to learn as well. Iv turned down nearly every pruning job iv been called for and just been honest with the customer Letting them know I wasn't comfortable doing the job because I'm not sure of the effects it will have to the tree. I stuck with removals for now. And for the 18 month requirement for ISA I emailed them about the requirements I saw on their website and was told i need to provide invoices from 3 years.




Well right there is your problem. no legit operation will advertise tree work on craigslist. that's where all the hacks are!

As you have noticed your "competition" with the no insurance, shoddy work, etc etc type jobs

If you don't want to be associated with that type bullsh*t then you need to market to clients who actually care about their trees, like you say you care.

All the CL people want is bottom dollar work.....they don't care about proper trimming, safety, etc just lowest price

Trying to grow a business based on that type work is a horrible business model and has a high chance of failure


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## Atlanta Tree Services (Mar 26, 2014)

Here in Atlanta, when a customer tells me that they have gotten quotes from companies from tree services on craigslist, I really don't want to even go look.. Not all companys that advertise on there are "shady" but the majority here are.. they all offer ***$150 REMOVALS*** but what they dont tell ya is they have no workman's comp or liability insurance.. Some people are only concerned about the bottom line... even if its a matter of a couple hundos they will take the risk... craziness


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 26, 2014)

old_soul said:


> Well right there is your problem. no legit operation will advertise tree work on craigslist. that's where all the hacks are!
> 
> As you have noticed your "competition" with the no insurance, shoddy work, etc etc type jobs
> 
> ...




Yup,,
Jeff


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## Valandscaper (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeah I have had several times where the HO would say " well ...... Said they would do it for this cheap price" and I always tell them the same exact thing. " if you feel comfortable with that guy taking down this tree over your home I suggest you let him do the job". Almost every time they break and have me do the job for my price. There is no way I'll ever do a $150 removal. I'm looking at other ways of advertising but I'm not sure what works right now. Any suggestions?


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 27, 2014)

Atlanta Tree Services said:


> Not all companys that advertise on there are "shady" but the majority here are..



Very true, I dont advertise there looking for work. As most on there looking, want bottom dollar. Me and a few buddys, that do other contracting, post on there to give a little edumacation to the GP. Most don't know what a Arborist is. I make sure to let people know that it is in their best interest to hire a CA instead of bubba hack and to do a background check on any and all, who they may contact. I get a lot of nasty emails because of this, Threats of all sorts, lmao! Guess bubba doesn't want anyone to know his past. Funny tho, they never give up a name. One buddy has a alert set on his smart phone. Every time someone post's in his category, he gets notified and then he post's his right on top of theirs! His straight up calls out the hacks of his industry, sometimes by name! He gets bad messages and threats of assbeatings, chit is funny. Childish and immature, I know, but its still fun. 
Kinda like when I was a recruiter, we would sit in the office, drink 40's and prank call all the kids that "no showed" a appointment. This was before caller ID. "Is little Jonny there?" "Hi Jonny, how does it feel to be a puss"


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## peetar (Mar 28, 2014)

The problem is, as far as removals go, there is no such thing as a hack. As far as a typical HO is concerned, they want standing debris removed. If the tree goes away and nothing gets broken, the logical best choice is the one with the lower price. It is a big IF, but it is what it is.

If I get a call from someone wanting any trim work, I ask them WHY they want it. I tell them that the best thing for the tree is usually to leave it alone. There is a balance between what is best for the tree and the needs of the person that owns the tree.

If a couple in their 60s want to top a silver maple next to their house, I ask why? The man hates cleaning the junk off the roof and the wife really freaks out everytime the wind blows at night. They want the shade but the wife hates having the tree over her head and doesn't sleep while the wind is kicks up. I will top that tree after I explain why it's not good for the tree and the wifes' fear is not warranted.

Why? Because they will be dead before a removal/plant grows enough to give shade/ seperation from the neighbor. I'm going to do a way better job than an average hack, and the wife can sleep at night.

Last fall I had to take care of some storm damage on one of two maples in a B Y / next to a house that had been topped. The way they were drop crotched I figured I'd did them. Sure enough, the lady said it was me who did them. 22 years and she remembered me, and really crazy, I could ID my cuts from back then before she said anything.

Topping is bad. I didn't care much for climbing above my old cuts. But what was your mindset in 1992?

The regulars here will certainly figure me as a hack. To a degree they are right, to many degrees they are wrong. I just beleive in property rights.


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## tidy (Mar 29, 2014)

There comes a point when you realise that certain clients demand a hack job, it is a sector of the market. I need to put food on the table but I will never do hack work on significant trees.


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## sgreanbeans (Mar 29, 2014)

Yeah, well, if ya top a tree, next to a house........... your right, your a hack. You can acheive the same desired result, by educating the client and doing proper reductions.


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## beastmaster (Mar 29, 2014)

I post educational pieces on Craigs list all the time in farm and garden. I explain about why topping and liontailing is so bad. I tell them if someone offers to top their trees they not real tree men but either uninformed amateurs or out and out dishonest hacks. I don't leave no contact info. I'm a caigs list terrorist. But maybe I might make one person think. I always end them with asking people to google tree topping and see what it says.


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## olyman (Mar 29, 2014)

Del_ said:


> Take the isa test and if you have to lie about your experience to get to take it.


 lie about it?? what is your level of honesty,,to the public you want business from???? you alluded to having a tree service,,how about if this post,,was tacked onto a sign on your front yard???? if youll lie about one thing,,youll lie about many things...


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 29, 2014)

kyle goddard said:


> I didn't do it or am not in it for the money.
> Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.
> 
> Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.





Do you love trees with a chainsaw and a chipper? Freedom? What freedom are you talking about? If we all were free to do whatever we wanted and did it then wouldn't we be hacks?

I dunno and I don't want to talk about hacks or even ethics anymore. We all get together to bash up on some retarded guys which is a mechanism to bolster our own confidence and in reality we all have done our more than fair share of hacking.

Don't get me wrong though, it sure is fun to watch pimp-handed wannabes learn a lesson. There truly is no defining line between what is hack and what is not, its all in perception and perception is often lost, obscured or otherwise tainted to the point where nobody can make sense of it.

I have seen tons of ISA guys all done up in chaps and rhetoric enough to drown you go out and hack away everyday. These are the types I gun for as I also find it fun and also find it fun to see someone get their tree jacked up by hiring cheap.


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 29, 2014)

sgreanbeans said:


> Very true, I dont advertise there looking for work. As most on there looking, want bottom dollar. Me and a few buddys, that do other contracting, post on there to give a little edumacation to the GP. Most don't know what a Arborist is. I make sure to let people know that it is in their best interest to hire a CA instead of bubba hack and to do a background check on any and all, who they may contact. I get a lot of nasty emails because of this, Threats of all sorts, lmao! Guess bubba doesn't want anyone to know his past. Funny tho, they never give up a name. One buddy has a alert set on his smart phone. Every time someone post's in his category, he gets notified and then he post's his right on top of theirs! His straight up calls out the hacks of his industry, sometimes by name! He gets bad messages and threats of assbeatings, chit is funny. Childish and immature, I know, but its still fun.
> Kinda like when I was a recruiter, we would sit in the office, drink 40's and prank call all the kids that "no showed" a appointment. This was before caller ID. "Is little Jonny there?" "Hi Jonny, how does it feel to be a puss"




One time I was in court and the judge asked me what I did for a living. I was reluctant to tell him as its none of his business but I told him I was an arborist and he asked me what that that was. I told him I wasn't going to explain it and that he should look it up.

****in judge dont' know what an arborist is.

I don't even use the term anymore and always felt that it was to much for the public to understand.


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## VA-Sawyer (Mar 29, 2014)

If trees could talk, ......... would any of us not be called ' hacks '?


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## jefflovstrom (Mar 29, 2014)

DR. P. Proteus said:


> Do you love trees with a chainsaw and a chipper? Freedom? What freedom are you talking about? If we all were free to do whatever we wanted and did it then wouldn't we be hacks?
> 
> I dunno and I don't want to talk about hacks or even ethics anymore. We all get together to bash up on some retarded guys which is a mechanism to bolster our own confidence and in reality we all have done our more than fair share of hacking.
> 
> ...



I think I understand something about you,,https://dictionary.search.yahoo.com...A2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRTMzOF8x?p=idiot savant&.sep=
Jeff


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## DR. P. Proteus (Mar 29, 2014)

jefflovstrom said:


> I think I understand something about you,,https://dictionary.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0SO8zhuQzdT8mEAnDpXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0ZWhlZ3FzBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1NNRTMzOF8x?p=idiot savant&.sep=
> Jeff



I don't think that's it.


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## CRThomas (Oct 5, 2014)

Valandscaper said:


> Ok I do tree work part time. Iv always wanted to own and operate my own business and I have been fascinated with free work since the first time I saw a climber working. I'm a pretty young guy 25. I am insured and am smart enough to know my limitations. I climb for myself and have 2 groundies. Iv got a few friends with tree businesses that I ask questions when I need to, and a contract climber that I hire in when there is a tree outta my league. I have a full time job that right now I have to keep I can't afford to jump ship but hope to build to full time. Here's my problem. The climbing schools I have looked at all require full time employment in the industry so for me it = no classes. I do my best to make sure I'm not labeled as a hack. I price fairly I don't go try to under cut everyone. I'm out here to build my business and donit fairly And ethically. And I feel part of that is proper training but I can't get that because it at least appears that this industry isnt welcoming to people like me. Can anyone elaborate on this for me. I'm trying to do this as right as is possible for me but not being able to take training classes or ISA tests and studies it is kinda frustrating.


You will be a hacker I have been in the bundle firewood so long I can't remember when I started two fellows near me started the bundled firewood business a year ago now I am a low life Hacker I am doing the same business as I have been doing with no changes but they the new starters but I'm the low life thats life


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## Erik Hakso (Oct 7, 2014)

I think a hack is a craftsman that doesn't know what he is doing. A craftsman is a hack that is skilled at his craft! A piece of paper won't save you from being a hack, nor will not having it make you one. The point of the paper is a guarantee to someone else (the customer) that you have a minimum level of training. Nothing more nothing less. If you are a skilled tree service provider and customers trust and refer you, then you are set.

www.pro-cuttreeservice.com


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## Hoowasat (Oct 7, 2014)

Erik Hakso said:


> The point of the paper is a guarantee to someone else (the customer) that you have a minimum level of training.


Reminds me of seeing a doctor's credentials hanging in his/her office and still wonder if he/she finished at the bottom of the graduating class.


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## treebilly (Oct 7, 2014)

Get the certs if you want. I choose not to for the simple reason that I don't have time to. I do my best to keep with proper pruning standards. I admit to hacking a few back in the day when I needed the money but only when I needed it. I don't walk away from it now either. I try to educate the HO and if they can't be swayed I'll rattle off some price 100 times what it's worth and tell them that's what it'll cost for me to do what they want. I've got more work then I can get to doing proper work without the certs. I will say that some contracts do require certified arborist. They are few and far between around here though.


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## treebilly (Oct 7, 2014)

Also drop the CL ad. Word of mouth is the best advertising. CL just puts you in a bad crowd.


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## treesmith (Oct 8, 2014)

Qualifications don't stop you being a hack, I knew a qualified arborist from a royal warrant company who spiked prunes


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## Zale (Oct 8, 2014)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 8, 2014)

I think the problem is that the 'Hacks' do not know they are 'Hacks'. (bless their heart),,
Some 'Hacks' will admit to it and don't care,
Some 'Hacks' actually think they are not 'Hacks',
Most 'Hacks' think it is noble to provide for their family ( of course it is) and Certification's and such are an expensive speed bump that no one in their area cares about that kinda 'stuff',,
All 'Hacks' do not know the opportunity that the education and market knowledge that they call 'no need' is what makes them 'Hacks',
Then there are the guy's that say they are not 'Hacks' because this is not their real job., lol,,
I guess the bottom line on this is,,,
__________________________________________________________________________
Fill in the blank.

Jeff


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 8, 2014)

There is a difference between "certified" and "qualified"....right Jeff


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## CRThomas (Oct 8, 2014)

It turns my stomach when I see move in after flat winds with a pickup and a cheap rate for one day get there beer money leave a mess and make you fellows look bad like them.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Oct 15, 2014)

I tell every client i see to not pay until the job is completely done. It helps out compete the small time hacks and some larger companies that require deposits.


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## CRThomas (Oct 15, 2014)

(bless their heart),,
Some 'Hacks' will admit to it and don't care,
Some 'Hacks' actually think they are not 'Hacks',
Most 'Hacks' think it is noble to provide for their family ( of course it is) and Certification's and such are an expensive speed bump that no one in their area cares about that kinda 'stuff',,
All 'Hacks' do not know the opportunity that the education and market knowledge that they call 'no need' is what makes them 'Hacks',
Then there are the guy's that say they are not 'Hacks' because this is not their real job., lol,,
I guess the bottom line on this is,,,
__________________________________________________________________________
Fill in the blank.

Jeff [/QUOTE]


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## CRThomas (Oct 15, 2014)

After the hacker cheats some old lady and them and there buddy's go on a drink spree that's not for there familys


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