# Milled electricity poles



## Eddie39 (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi guys got up this morning and milled that pole i posted the photos of ,and as logging22 said it was sore on the chain but not as bad as some of the smaller poles be , for what ever reason and Brm----- was right in sayin that the weight could be because of pressure treating cause they were .Nothing like hot two stroke and creosote fumes first thing in the morning i can tell you  Here's some photos as promised ..
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I think in future ill cut them for the fire or if i need strainers for gates and the like, but i cant wait to see how many mahogany poles turn up, it wont be alot but a few would be great especially if there as big as the one above and there not treated which is great ..


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## BobL (Feb 6, 2010)

I definitely wouldn't be burning (or milling) treated poles


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## Eddie39 (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob to be honest i couldn't say it was a nice experience ,that was the first and last one ill be milling of those treated ones, but as for burning they get used alot for kindling just to start the fire ,the smoke that comes off them is seriously bad ..!!!!


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## wigglesworth (Feb 6, 2010)

Eddie39 said:


> the smoke that comes off them is seriously bad ..!!!!



And most likely, very, very toxic....


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## Eddie39 (Feb 6, 2010)

wigglesworth said:


> And most likely, very, very toxic....



I would say you would be correct there .


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## bigbadbob (Feb 6, 2010)

We had tags to put on our old creosote poles.
'DO NOT INCINERATE'
The smoke is toxic, worse in a stove.
Carcinogenic.
But they make great fence material.


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## Old Hilly (Feb 6, 2010)

Hmmmmmm, probably not Creosote either. More likely to be something like PentaChloroPhenyle (PCP) or one of it's close relations. Seriously bad for your health. In amongst that liquid there will also be some fungicides, insectacides and other nasties that are guaranteed to be bad for your health.
If you breathe the fumes when you burn the wood you get a nasty mixture of God-knows-what, if you then bury the ash from that fire in a vegetable garden you stand a good chance of ingesting more of the same mixture.
If you cut the pole into lengths for posts tou expose untreated wood to the microbes in the ground and in a few years you will have a nice hollow post. The treated timber will be as good as the day it was made but the untreated wood will have been consumed by the critters in the soil. How do I know this?
I built a set of cattle yards with some treated poles. Now we have excelent Parrot nest sites in most of the posts. Thank heavens for quiet cattle!!!! And I used to work with an overhead line and pole inspector so I got to play with all that nasty crap, first hand.
Dennis.


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## mtngun (Feb 6, 2010)

Eddie39, that's the first time we seen anyone mill utility poles. 

Thanks for the pics.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi fellas its a first for me as well but there's been a shortage of any sort of wood over my way ,seems like half the country has started to sell firewood so where i used to be able to get plenty of windblown trees ,i cant now ,not only that but there's folk out there just cutting live and standing ones from peoples land ,which has resulted in ,as soon as a saws heard there's some one on the phone to the police which i can totally understand but there tarring everyone that is out with a saw with the same brush .The only reason i milled that one was because i hadn't used the mill for a while because of all this happening , and it was big enough to get the saw and mill going , but i wouldn't recommend it ,not a pleasant experience that's for sure but i will be milling any of those other poles if any of them land ,alot of you are very lucky as you have vast areas of forest with enough timber for everyone ,thank yourselves lucky every time you look at it ..!!!!


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## mtngun (Feb 7, 2010)

I figured you were hard up for trees. 

Yes, I am lucky to have forests nearby. It is only softwood, but we make do with what we have.

Do you heat your house with wood ?


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## Eddie39 (Feb 7, 2010)

YIP have a wood burning stove but i don't use poles as the main fuel ,only as kindling the odd time when there is a bit as do alot of others over this way even seen them getting used as the main fuel, and have had the pleasure of sitting near a fire when there was a downdraft with them burning ,and that sorta made my mind up there and then ,not to use any amount of them you could be in your bed sleepin and those fumes could do you in in your sleep .Burn pine mostly


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## Mike Van (Feb 7, 2010)

Eddie, I'm no greenpeace treehugger or anything - Burning that chemical laced crap is just plain bad. You may get some cheap heat, everyone else has to breath it. Gives woodburners everywhere a bad name. I'm as cheep as they come, but I'd buy oil before I'd burn poles.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 7, 2010)

Mike as i said earlier i don't use them for heat or fuel only as kindling, and that's the very odd time .Those planks i milled were for shelves in an open out house and the other poles i mentioned are made from Mahogany and ARENT TREATED as they are hardwood..


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## Brmorgan (Feb 7, 2010)

Green pressure-treated lumber is ugly stuff too - a lot is full of Arsenic. Or at least it used to be unless they've changed that in the last 10 years or so. I remember a landscaper I used to work for a bit reading a homeowner the riot act because they were using pressure-treated lumber for walkways between the rows in their garden. Said that the As would leach into the soil and into the veggies.


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## Greenthorn (Feb 7, 2010)

Nice job! Some of us don't realize how resourceful we need to be when re-using.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 7, 2010)

Hmmmm am starting to think about just getting rid of them instead of even using them for shelves at all , honestly i never realized they had half that stuff in them thought it was just creosote or #####umen i think its called not sure about that one either way you've put me off using them for anything at all and thanks for filling me in on the list of really nasty chemicals in them ,otherwise id have never known before this i was thinking of putting up raised veg beds with them .THANKS FOR THAT

So are old railway sleepers in the same class they cant be used round veg beds either ?


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 7, 2010)

Eddie39 said:


> Hmmmm am starting to think about just getting rid of them instead of even using them for shelves at all , honestly i never realized they had half that stuff in them thought it was just creosote or #####umen i think its called not sure about that one either way you've put me off using them for anything at all and thanks for filling me in on the list of really nasty chemicals in them ,otherwise id have never known before this i was thinking of putting up raised veg beds with them .THANKS FOR THAT
> 
> So are old railway sleepers in the same class they cant be used round veg beds either ?


I see people have scared you into being within 100 feet of them, but remember that at one point creosote was used as stain on log homes, and I have a book written in the 40s that still advocated such, written by the Montana Forestry Service...

My first suggestion, don't panic. I am not saying your should lick the wood or make chewing mulch out of it, but cut the edges off and keep what is clean on the inside, there is still some great wood in there which doesn't have creosote on it. At least that is what I would do.

There is no doubt that creosote is bad stuff, so I don't want you to think I'm advocating making a crib for a newborn baby, just that you can still cut it off and have some usable lumber. My free $0.02, worth what you paid for it.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well thats made me feel a bit better about all this so what are you meant to do with the rest other than just let it sit somewhere , and do nothing.?


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## mtngun (Feb 7, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> There is no doubt that creosote is bad stuff, so I don't want you to think I'm advocating making a crib for a newborn baby, just that you can still cut it off and have some usable lumber.


:agree2:

When I was growing up, DDT was still widely used. My town had a truck that drove around spraying a huge cloud of DDT to kill mosquitoes. We kids would have a contest to see who could run into the cloud of DDT and stay there for the longest time. 

In later years they used an airplane to spray the entire town with DDT. I can remember seeing the plane flying overhead and then feeling the mist rain down on me. 

One of my first jobs as a young man had me working in a pesticide plant. At least, they told us it was a pesticide. I found out later it was a super potent poison intended for chemical warfare (contrary to official policy, the US still produces WMDs), one drop could take out an entire town, or something like that. Anyway, I'd go home from work tingling all over, because the chemical affected your nervous system. 

Then later I had a job working in the rebuild shop of a maintenance department. We used a solvent to wash all the parts we were rebuilding. Can't remember the name of the solvent, but it has since been banned for causing all kinds of cancer and birth defects, etc.. I'd go home from that job tingling all over, too. 

I'm glad those kinds of chemicals are rarely used these days, but the point is, they normally don't cause you to drop dead right away. 

I wouldn't have any issues using your creosote boards for certain outdoor applications.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 7, 2010)

Eddie39 said:


> Well thats made me feel a bit better about all this so what are you meant to do with the rest other than just let it sit somewhere , and do nothing.?


I'd just quietly get rid of it somehow...it's not like other stuff like that is not in the dumps, but I don't know how Ireland is, here in the dumps there is all types of crap like that...

Got any neighbors you don't like?:monkey:


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## Brmorgan (Feb 7, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I see people have scared you into being within 100 feet of them, but remember that at one point creosote was used as stain on log homes, and I have a book written in the 40s that still advocated such, written by the Montana Forestry Service...
> 
> My first suggestion, don't panic. I am not saying your should lick the wood or make chewing mulch out of it, but cut the edges off and keep what is clean on the inside, there is still some great wood in there which doesn't have creosote on it. At least that is what I would do.
> 
> There is no doubt that creosote is bad stuff, so I don't want you to think I'm advocating making a crib for a newborn baby, just that you can still cut it off and have some usable lumber. My free $0.02, worth what you paid for it.



Good advice. I don't think creosote is all that bad in its solid form if left alone in/on the wood. It's just a bad idea to ingest the stuff. Heck in a town a few hours' drive from me (Kamloops BC) they're talking of putting in a small powerplant or something like that to burn shredded railroad ties that are all creosote-coated. They shred them down at the old rail station here in town - they're hauled here on trains from all over the province and fed into a huge grinder which spits the end result back into big open boxcars which are hauled away to somewhere else. No idea what they end up doing with the stuff right now though.

As for the Arsenic etc., I didn't mean to scare anyone with that. I have no idea if it is/was used on the other side of the ocean for such things, and I really don't think it was ever put in the phone poles here, just the green treated lumber. Copper II solution is a more common and less hazardous wood preservative now.


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## Sawyer Rob (Feb 7, 2010)

I will NOT mill power poles either, as my will to have something to mill, sure as hell isn't strong as my will to NOT get some desease when i'm older! And what about anyone with kids that come over? I'm just NOT willing to take that chance either.

Rob


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> No idea what they end up doing with the stuff right now though.


Brad,

I think it's one of those things...out of sight, out of mind...maybe they go to Siberia or somewhere? :-/

I almost was dumbfounded by all the asbestos problems in the insulation, when they continued to put it in car brake pads. It wasn't until pretty recent they took it out of them also, but people sitting in traffic on the freeway grinding the pad dust in the air and no worries...

It's hard to figure some of this stuff out, not trying to say at all that we shouldn't worry about it, I'm conscience about this stuff as much as the next guy...but when we get down to it the air we breath has pollutants in it that will kill any lab rat, given enough of it...we don't need the surgeon general to tell us that...:-/

I'm surprised that they do that stuff up where you are in Canada, I thought they were better than the States...???


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## Brmorgan (Feb 7, 2010)

TraditionalTool said:


> I'm surprised that they do that stuff up where you are in Canada, I thought they were better than the States...???



Heh, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I guess if you consider we have the population of California spread out over a land mass about the size of the USA and Mexico combined, we can afford to pollute a little bit more per person and Mother Nature will keep things a bit cleaner for the most part. Remember, we're home to the Athabasca Tar Sands! BC is much like California - the enviro freaks are mostly down around Vancouver and Victoria, much like San Fran and the surrounding area down south. The interior, especially ranching and logging country up where I'm at, can be disturbingly redneck.


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## bigbadbob (Feb 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Heck in a town a few hours' drive from me (Kamloops BC) they're talking of putting in a small powerplant or something like that to burn shredded railroad ties that are all creosote-coated. They shred them down at the old rail station here in town - they're hauled here on trains from all over the province and fed into a huge grinder which spits the end result back into big open boxcars which are hauled away to somewhere else. No idea what they end up doing with the stuff right now though.
> 
> As for the Arsenic etc., I didn't mean to scare anyone with that. I have no idea if it is/was used on the other side of the ocean for such things, and I really don't think it was ever put in the phone poles here, just the green treated lumber. Copper II solution is a more common and less hazardous wood preservative now.



I hate to tell you that rail tie burning generation plant is the hottest topic in town right now!!! Even the non leaf lickers are wanting it banned, me included, who need that crap in the air, we have power and rail line all over find another spot,, like Williams Lake or Vancouver or Victoria!!!


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## Brmorgan (Feb 7, 2010)

Hey, we already have the largest wood-fired biomass power plant in North America here in town! No need for more! I figure with the amount they burn they could probably trickle a bit of that junk in here and there and nobody would notice though (except our one-armed three-legged grandkids, I guess!).

I know that discussion's been all over the news lately. Where are they considering putting it anyway? Not like you guys need that crap when you already have the pulp mill that makes the valley smell like a corpse on a calm day.


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## bigbadbob (Feb 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Hey, we already have the largest wood-fired biomass power plant in North America here in town! No need for more! I figure with the amount they burn they could probably trickle a bit of that junk in here and there and nobody would notice though (except our one-armed three-legged grandkids, I guess!).
> 
> I know that discussion's been all over the news lately. Where are they considering putting it anyway? Not like you guys need that crap when you already have the pulp mill that makes the valley smell like a corpse on a calm day.


They want it right by the stinky pulp mill. I figure we have raised enough
stink they may cancel it here, and the big grant the feds gave them.
It's a native investment company from Sask doing it.


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## Brmorgan (Feb 7, 2010)

bigbadbob said:


> They want it right by the stinky pulp mill. I figure we have raised enough
> stink they may cancel it here, and the big grant the feds gave them.
> *It's a native investment company from Sask doing it.*



That doesn't surprise me in the least. They're getting all the gov't handouts to start/maintain businesses right now. Everyone's timber licenses up here are getting slashed, but the native bands' licenses are getting extended bigtime.


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## clearance (Feb 7, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> That doesn't surprise me in the least. They're getting all the gov't handouts to start/maintain businesses right now. Everyone's timber licenses up here are getting slashed, but the native bands' licenses are getting extended bigtime.



Its our land white man, all 110% of it.............lol.


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## Brmorgan (Feb 8, 2010)

I dunno, I'm just against special treatment for anybody. I don't expect any. We're all Canadians at this point; I'm as native a Canadian as anybody else. Since I've been unemployed there have been training programs come up that EI would pay for me to take, but at the bottom of the ad a lot of them said "This course is open to First Nations persons" or something similar. And these were courses offered through the public university/college. I'd like to see what would happen if somebody said the reverse.


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## clearance (Feb 8, 2010)

Brad, you would enjoy the book "From snowshoes to politics" its by Cyril Shelford, rancher, logger, ww2 vet, politician in WAC Bennets gov. He writes in his book (1987) about the racism in B.C. About how natives couldn't go into bars or most hotels, and were not alowed to vote untill 1960. That was then, treated like sh&T and now leaders trip over each other to kiss thier azz. Its amazing and sad, equality was achieved and surpassed.


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Feb 8, 2010)

*so why not up in arms over coal burning plants?*

Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the world. It is a thick, oily liquid typically amber to black in colour. The American Wood Preservers' Association states that creosote "shall be a distillate derived entirely from tars *produced from the carbonization of bituminous coal.*" Coal tar used for certain applications may be a mixture of coal tar distillate and coal tar. See, AWPA Standards

The prevailing use of creosote to preserve wooden utilities/telephone poles, railroad cross ties, switch ties and bridge timbers from decay. Coal tar products are also used in medicines to treat diseases such as psoriasis, and as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Some over the counter anti-dandruff shampoos contain coal tar solutions.

2005 mortality study of creosote workers found no evidence supporting an increased risk of cancer death, as a result of exposure to creosote. Based on the findings of the largest mortality study to date of workers employed in creosote wood treating plants, there is no evidence that employment at creosote wood-treating plants or exposure to creosote-based preservatives was associated with any significant mortality increase from either site-specific cancers or non-malignant diseases. The study consisted of 2,179 employees at eleven plants in the United States where wood was treated with creosote preservatives. Some workers began work in the 1940s to 1950s. The observation period of the study covered 1979- 2001. The average length of employment was 12.5 years. One third of the study subjects were employed for over 15 years. 

The largest health effect of creosote is deaths caused by residential fires.


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## Banacanin (Feb 8, 2010)

Eddie39 said:


> Well thats made me feel a bit better about all this so what are you meant to do with the rest other than just let it sit somewhere , and do nothing.?



You can make benches that will hold up to the elements very nicely.


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## bigbadbob (Feb 8, 2010)

Banacanin said:


> You can make benches that will hold up to the elements very nicely.


At the phone co. we were told to always wear your gloves and cover your arms when handling and climbing poles, and not for slivers!!


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## Banacanin (Feb 8, 2010)

bigbadbob said:


> At the phone co. we were told to always wear your gloves and cover your arms when handling and climbing poles, and not for slivers!!



You know it is a real shame that they still use something this dangerous yet they are worried about pollution from a chainsaw. Its as if they find something small and insignificant to divert attention from what is really going on


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## bigbadbob (Feb 8, 2010)

Banacanin said:


> You know it is a real shame that they still use something this dangerous yet they are worried about pollution from a chainsaw. Its as if they find something small and insignificant to divert attention from what is really going on



The railway has millions and millions of poles and ties, some of those poles are black with tar and creosote!!!
They want to burn these in my town!!!
We have lots of inversions already, keeps that smog down low. 
I would rather that be done somewhere else, the burners tell us its safe in my town, but they are from Sask. , lets move the plant there, or better yet in some polititions home town or headquarters.
Look at what became of the PCB's from transformer oil, I could go on but I think we all know the answers.
It would be nice if they asked the people before they go ahead with these things!! Especially when the govenment is giving them some of our tax dollars to start up!!


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Feb 8, 2010)

I think they could be burned safley with the appropriate scrubbers on the burners, It would be the safest way to dispose of them and capture the toxins in a smaller mass that promotes a safer long term disposal solution.


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## woodsrunner (Feb 8, 2010)

Check out this link for info on wood preservatives:

http:www.southernpine.com/pt07.shtml


FWIW here's my 2 cents.

For those of us in the hot, humid southeast US wood preservatives are an absolute must for any wood products used outdoors. The days of rot resistant heart cypress or long leaf yellow pine heartwood are long gone. Wood used outdoors here absolutely will not last more than 2 or 3 years IF it is untreated. So from a resource efficiency point of view wood preservatives make sense. From a longevity point of view (economics) they make sense. Rotten lumber makes a poor bridge or fence or barn or deck. Yes, preservatives have chemical compounds that can be dangerous to your health IF used incorrectly. But they ARE a real necessity. 

CCA, ACQ, and Creosote treated lumber, posts, poles and timbers are a valuable tool for wood products used outdoors. They will continue to be.

Having said all that, read information that is available on the web about the appropriate practices and techniques for using these products. Then make an informed decision about how to use these products in a "recycling" situation. I have used lots of "recycled" power poles for barn posts, cowpen poles, and fence posts. I would not recommend sawing them and using them for lumber. Not because of the possible dangers of sawing them however. 
Pressure treating does not penetrate the entire pole. It will only penetrate a certain depth into the perimeter or circumference of the pole. So when you saw it for lumber you really don't have a product that is as rot resistant as factory treated lumber. As others have said sawing them may present health risks for the sawyer. Also as another poster said wear gloves, long pants and long sleeves when handling creosote treated materials. The creosote is very caustic and will burn your skin. And one last thing DO NOT burn these in your wood stove ( or anywhere else for that matter). They should be disposed of in a manner consistent with your local regulations on hazardous waste because these treatment materials are all pesticides. 

For the OP, DO NOT burn this stuff in any amount in your woodstove. Use them as poles or posts or timbers. I also would not use them in the garden. Arsenic and copper will accumulate in the soil and you cannot remove them. These compounds can be toxic to plants. I have seen copper toxicity on commercial vegetables on several occasions due to over use of copper based fungicides which have accumulated in the soil. 

Scott


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## Old Hilly (Feb 8, 2010)

Down here in OZ we have 2 types of Creosote in common use, being "high temprature" which is the common variety and "low temprature" which is much less common now. The "low temp" version was, and still is if my taste buds are still working, used as the base for some of those foul tasting black cough mixtures that were poured down our throats as kids.
There are other chemicals that look a bit like creosote and will do the same job. Some have (had) chemicals added such as the 2% Clordane that went into the stuff we used on power poles down here. Then there were the fungicides and other 'cides that went into the drum, all in the name of keeping a dead tree in the ground longer.
The creosote is not a problem, it's what is or was added to the creosote 30 years ago that is going to bite you really badly today. Our treated poles have an expected service life of about 40 years, some go much older than that. What was acceptable practice all those years ago is now treated as a capital offence (almost) and is totally ilegal but the chemicals are still sitting in the wood, doing their job.
Another thing you might not want to know.....some of those chemicals are stored in the fatty tissues of your body. You absorb them a little at a time, with each exposeure. The big problem is if, for some reason, you either get healthy and go on a weight-loss program or have to resort to using those fat reserves. All those toxins that went into storage over a period of years get taken out much more rapidly and make you really unwell. At least that is what happened to the Pole Inspector who was my Foreman. It was not a pleasant process to watch.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 8, 2010)

Well Guys this thread has certainly raised some very interesting debates and discussions that's for sure ,and after reading through this thread i am of the view that .
I will not be using any kindling's made from poles to start a fire.

I will use those planks as shelves in the out house as i was going to have to use preservative anyway ..

And I ll never be milling any preserved poles again ,truth be told felt slightly ill after that one and had a strange metallic sort of taste in my mouth which only disappeared last night very weird ..


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## Old Hilly (Feb 8, 2010)

Very wise, Eddy, very wise indeed.
I didn't mention that some of this stuff will enter your body via your skin (wear PVC gloves) or via your lungs (so wear a propper insecticide rated respirator, not one of those paper dust mask thingies). The heat of the exhaust from your saw and the heat caused by the chain cutting the wood is enough to sort-of activate whatever that was in the creosote (if it was creosote and not something nastier like PCP) and you get a fairly concentrated dose of whatever is in the wood.
Please take extreme care with this crap, you are a long time dead. I also have no idea if any of this stuff causes changes to DNA which could be carried over to your future offspring.
Cheery old bastard ain't I?
Take care, I wish you well.
Dennis.
PS. If you smoke, don't do it around this crap either. It just gets the fumes into your lungs just that little bit faster.


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## Eddie39 (Feb 8, 2010)

Hey Dennis its always good to hear things from people that know more about it than myself ,other wise how would we ever learn .I was wearing gloves ,sleeves .. Cheers

Eddie


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 8, 2010)

Eddie39 said:


> Well Guys this thread has certainly raised some very interesting debates and discussions that's for sure ,and after reading through this thread i am of the view that .
> I will not be using any kindling's made from poles to start a fire.
> 
> I will use those planks as shelves in the out house as i was going to have to use preservative anyway ..
> ...


I absolutely agree it's best to stay away from it, just that no reason to jump off a bridge over milling it up. Pressure treated wood gives similar bad taste, and I've cut that up before for outside use. Always use a mask when working around that stuff. I would do the same with creosote. But it's really not worth bothering with if you can get clean wood, IMO.


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## Old Hilly (Feb 9, 2010)

The only people that really know what went into that pole treatment are the chemists that cooked up the brew. I strongly suspect that there are some metalic salts in there, probably Copper because fungi hate the stuff, so that might have been the taste you got in your mouth.
I wouldn't panic over the amount of crap you ingested from cutting up that one log, it was probably a minute amount. It is when you ingest lots of minute amounts over time that is going to cause you problems. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed.
Anyway, on the brighter side of things......You taking those old poles off the supply authority will save them lots of money bu not having to pay to dump them into landfill. They are, after all, hazardous waste! You did them a favour so perhaps you should ask them for a discount on your power bill next time around!!!!!:deadhorse:

Keep warm,
Dennis (the would-be comedian).


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 9, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> probably Copper because fungi hate the stuff


Speaking of which, have any of you ever used that Copper-Green solution to kill fungi and bacteria?

I had to use this when I bought my house for the home inspection. I had some wood outside that hadn't been treated, so it said I needed to apply this stuff.

This is some of the nastiest stuff in the world...I brushed it on the wood pergola in my entry, and it just ate up my clothes, I had to end up throwing the clothes away as they just kept deteriorating...this stuff is nasty...

Not thinking I was just brushing it and it was splattering on my shirt and pants unknowingly...


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## BobL (Feb 9, 2010)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the world. It is a thick, oily liquid typically amber to black in colour. The American Wood Preservers' Association states that creosote "shall be a distillate derived entirely from tars *produced from the carbonization of bituminous coal.*" Coal tar used for certain applications may be a mixture of coal tar distillate and coal tar. See, AWPA Standards
> 
> The prevailing use of creosote to preserve wooden utilities/telephone poles, railroad cross ties, switch ties and bridge timbers from decay. Coal tar products are also used in medicines to treat diseases such as psoriasis, and as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Some over the counter anti-dandruff shampoos contain coal tar solutions.
> 
> ...



Looks like a copy and paste from wikipedia?
ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
scroll down to, "Health effects of coal tar creosote"


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## Old Hilly (Feb 10, 2010)

But Alan, it has the word "GREEN" right up there on the top of the label. That means it must be OK to use. Doesn't it????
I have used similar chemicals and I treat them with a great deal of respect. Anything that will kill a fungus and keep killing it's spores is bound to kill Humans, it will just take a bit longer..........
Dennis.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 10, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> But Alan, it has the word "GREEN" right up there on the top of the label. That means it must be OK to use. Doesn't it????


No kidding...I bet the guys that produce the stuff never use it...lol


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## Andrew96 (Feb 10, 2010)

Oh...that's the key. I worked with a bunch of chemists....They made the chemicals we used in the plant. One day I asked them if they really were OK to use..you know...'really safe'. The only answer I got other than a smile was...."you don't see me using them". The chemists all seem to know which to keep a good distance from.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 10, 2010)

I just Googled creasote. There are 2 kinds, wood based and coal tar based. Wood based has been used in medacine in the past. Coal tar based is worse. It said coal tar based creasote "Probably" caused cancer. In studies on rats shaved ares were coated for several weeks and caused lessions. It also said workers in creasote production plants were studied and no effects were noted. In creasote work areas 2 parts per million in the breathing air was OK. Since the first used rail road tie became available people have been using them for retaining walls and garden beds and I have never heard of any ill effects. I have a friend that mills, on an old circular mill, power poles to build out buildings. They make the neetest colored wood. He may just be nuts. I would have no problem using those boards for shelves in out buildings. People have a tendancy to mix terms. Creasote poles are not the same as pressure treated wood, which is very dangerous to breath and be in contact with, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 10, 2010)

I went back to Google and another thread said Coal Tar Creasote was very hazardous to health. It said if you ate a lot it could cause stomach pain. If you got a lot on your skin it could cause a chemical burn. If you breathed a lot of it it could cause lung cancer. All in all, if you have ever read the hazardous effects of any thing in excess, the risks were minimal. I'd still use the shelves, Joe.


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## TraditionalTool (Feb 10, 2010)

Andrew96 said:


> Oh...that's the key. I worked with a bunch of chemists....They made the chemicals we used in the plant. One day I asked them if they really were OK to use..you know...'really safe'. The only answer I got other than a smile was...."you don't see me using them". The chemists all seem to know which to keep a good distance from.


EXACTLY!

As a test, if anyone has any copper-green, put some on a rag and set it out in your backyard for a day or two...I bet it eats up the rag...


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## ROOTSXROCKS (Feb 10, 2010)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the world. It is a thick, oily liquid typically amber to black in colour. The American Wood Preservers' Association states that creosote "shall be a distillate derived entirely from tars *produced from the carbonization of bituminous coal.*" Coal tar used for certain applications may be a mixture of coal tar distillate and coal tar. See, AWPA Standards
> 
> The prevailing use of creosote to preserve wooden utilities/telephone poles, railroad cross ties, switch ties and bridge timbers from decay. Coal tar products are also used in medicines to treat diseases such as psoriasis, and as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Some over the counter anti-dandruff shampoos contain coal tar solutions.
> 
> ...





BobL said:


> Looks like a copy and paste from wikipedia?
> ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
> scroll down to, "Health effects of coal tar creosote"


and whats your point?



rarefish383 said:


> I just Googled creasote. There are 2 kinds, wood based and coal tar based. Wood based has been used in medacine in the past. Coal tar based is worse. It said coal tar based creasote "Probably" caused cancer. In studies on rats shaved ares were coated for several weeks and caused lessions. It also said workers in creasote production plants were studied and no effects were noted. In creasote work areas 2 parts per million in the breathing air was OK. Since the first used rail road tie became available people have been using them for retaining walls and garden beds and I have never heard of any ill effects. I have a friend that mills, on an old circular mill, power poles to build out buildings. They make the neetest colored wood. He may just be nuts. I would have no problem using those boards for shelves in out buildings. People have a tendancy to mix terms. Creasote poles are not the same as pressure treated wood, which is very dangerous to breath and be in contact with, Joe.



 yes I agree that's what I was I was trying to convey above when I posted the selection from the Wicki Article that Bob the detective called me out on .


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## BobL (Feb 10, 2010)

ROOTSXROCKS said:


> and whats your point?


What I was trying to do increase the value of the information provided. Echoing info from a readily available source is more helpful if a link to the original source is provided so members can check it out in detail if they wish. 

I didn't deliberately go out of my way to search for the source of the information, it just so happened that I was reading that Wiki entry about 5 seconds before I read your post. I'm sorry if the way I put it was on the pointed side, it must have been my teacher side coming out - where I ask students to expressing an opinion in their own words and they just copy stuff straight from the web. I try to convince them the value of any information is only as good as the origin or source of that information. ie direct knowledge, experience or testing, something they heard from someone else, urban myth, or just echoing another source. There's nothing wrong with any of these in certain contexts, as long as its stated or reasonably obvious. 

By the way, just in case this is not obvious, this is just my opinion


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## BlueRidgeMark (Feb 10, 2010)

Mike Van said:


> Eddie, I'm no greenpeace treehugger or anything - Burning that chemical laced crap is just plain bad. You may get some cheap heat, everyone else has to breath it. Gives woodburners everywhere a bad name. I'm as cheep as they come, but *I'd buy oil before I'd burn poles*.




:agree2:


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## olyman (Feb 10, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Hmmmmmm, probably not Creosote either. More likely to be something like PentaChloroPhenyle (PCP) or one of it's close relations. Seriously bad for your health. In amongst that liquid there will also be some fungicides, insectacides and other nasties that are guaranteed to be bad for your health.
> If you breathe the fumes when you burn the wood you get a nasty mixture of God-knows-what, if you then bury the ash from that fire in a vegetable garden you stand a good chance of ingesting more of the same mixture.
> If you cut the pole into lengths for posts tou expose untreated wood to the microbes in the ground and in a few years you will have a nice hollow post. The treated timber will be as good as the day it was made but the untreated wood will have been consumed by the critters in the soil. How do I know this?
> I built a set of cattle yards with some treated poles. Now we have excelent Parrot nest sites in most of the posts. Thank heavens for quiet cattle!!!! And I used to work with an overhead line and pole inspector so I got to play with all that nasty crap, first hand.
> Dennis.



so--i have a bunch of line poles--and want to shave them to square 8x8's--which may expose the untreated wood--sooooooo. what to do?? pour some cement in the bottom of hole--let dry,set pole on that,and pour cement around pole??? tell me--


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## Old Hilly (Feb 11, 2010)

First off, don't square off the treated poles, use them as they are and if you need flats on the post for rails or something, cut them with a chainsaw and then treat the timber with either creosote or one of the green Copper based solutions. For the base of the post, paint it well with the same creosote or Copper solution. When you plant the post in the ground you can sit it on a concrete pad but don't totally encase the post in concrete. In general, posts and poles don't like having their feet wet all the time. Ram/compact the earth well as you back-fill the hole and when you get to within about 6" of the surface start pouring creosote or old sump oil into the hole as you add the dirt. Keep adding dirt until you are above the ground line, shape the dirt into a cone around the base of the post so that the water will shed away from the post, pour plenty of old oil around this cone to make it waterproof. 
Next, you need to keep the weather out of the end-grain on the top of the post. You can do this by making a galvanised sheet steel cap for the post or you can keep pouring old sump oil ontothe top of the post untill it won't soak in any more. When I do an oilchange I usually leave the old oil filter to drain out on top of a post. That keeps things oiled nicely.
All of the above is what we do down here in OZ. We use hardwoods (Eucalypts) like Bloodwood, White mahogany, Ironbark, Tallowwood for our fencing. These are probably nothing like anything you have up there, except, perhaps Oak but even that I am not familiar with.
Many of our hardwoods are totally useless when in contact with the ground. One old bloke I worked with said that Flooded Gum would be starting to rot before you finished ramming the dirt into the hole. That was a slight exageration. They actually last a bit longer than it takes to finish the job and get paid. That same timber will last for years if kept off the ground and used as fence rails and gates. Funny stuff is our hardwood.
Hope this helped to confuse you just a little bit more than you were before I started.
Dennis.


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## Mike Van (Feb 11, 2010)

olyman said:


> so--i have a bunch of line poles--and want to shave them to square 8x8's--which may expose the untreated wood--sooooooo. what to do?? pour some cement in the bottom of hole--let dry,set pole on that,and pour cement around pole??? tell me--



Oly, I worked as a lineman for the power co. 35 years before I retired. I've set, pulled, sawed, drilled & climbed every pole type know here in New England. All the chemicals they put in these poles are bad, they stopped creosote poles here some 15 [or more] years ago. Went to CCA at .6 not the .4 you bought at HD. When it first came out, a guy from Koppers came to the area, he said "this stuff is great, it's so safe" Pretty soon, the warnings come out - Don't make picnic tables out of it, feed bunks, playgrounds, etc. Safe huh? I've sawn some on my bandmill, but won't anymore. The smell, the dust, it hangs for days. Untreated black locust will last just as long. Hilly's right about not sawing them square, if you don't have to. I've seen broken cracked ones with ant farms in them, the ants don't eat the wood like termites, they just dig it out to make nests. Unless you have some terrific load on the top of a pole, you don't need a concrete footing. None of the poles out online have concrete in the bottom of the hole. Some have 2000 lbs of equipment hanging on them too. The worst place for rot will be a few inches above & below ground level, it's damp & gets air too. Deep in the soil, no rot. We pulled poles that had been set 50 years with no butt rot. Years back we would give away pulled poles, then we had to put big stickers on them about how hazardous they were. Lastly, we couldn't give them away, they came back to the yard, got cut into 5 ft lengths, and went in a special dumpster. From there, I don't know but I think they got landfilled. When I made my kids playset & swings, I did it out of oak. It only had to last several years, they outgrew it, I burned it in the stove. Chemical wood sucks, I can't say it any simpler.


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## olyman (Feb 11, 2010)

mike--i hear ya,cept---------i got these poles--and i want to build a fairly large pole shed. they are in good shape,i just want them squared--for square walls!!! thats why i was thinking of concrete base--and concrete around them--with a slight cone on top of concrete,so water runs off--ever price trated 8x8's??? their nutzzz!!!!! tops would be covered inside shed--or, concrete base pad---and put washed rock all the way to top of hole?? or would still get rot???


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## trax (Feb 11, 2010)

Had a friend bring my a brand new power pole last year I sawed on the band mill and framed a deck at my cabin and used store bought decking over it. I wore long sleeves and a dust mask while milling.


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## Old Hilly (Feb 12, 2010)

OK, here is how they built pole frame houses around here just over 100 years ago.........
First, set out your corners and intermediate poles, then dig your holes. Allow for the size of pole you are going to put in the hole. Measure the depth of each hole and work out where your floor level is going to be. Square the pole so that the part where the building is going to be is square but below the floor level is still the natural round shape of the pole. Set the pole in the ground with the flats in the right line for the walls.
Alternatevly.......Stand all your poles where they should be, then rip the sides in a square of the desired size down to the floor line, set your bearers between the poles and resting on the ledge left between the square and round sections.
Around here the old-timers used Tallow Wood poles and a single layer of Red Mahogany T&G boards just under 1&1/2" thick and about 4" wide set vertically between the floor system Bottom plate and a top plate that carried the roof. The boards were held in place with a triangular moulding of about 2". As the boards shrank they were wedged up tight again and another section of board slipped in the gap at the end.
Over the last 25 years I have worked on a few of these old houses and they are still strong and weather-tight. Not too bad for something twice as old as me!
The old bush-workers that built a lot of these houses would have used the tools that they worked with all the time. An axe, a broad axe (used for squaring sleepers), an Adze and a cross-cut saw. Perhaps a hammer, a couple of nails, a string line rubbed with Mutton fat and powdered charcoal and a plumb-bob to get things perlindicular. A folding 3-foot boxwood rule and a roofing square would have been considered luxuries for some of these blokes.
Lazer levels, power tools, chainsaws, nail guns......Just science fiction stuff way back then.
Gentlemen, we don't know how lucky we are!
Dennis.


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## olyman (Feb 12, 2010)

dennis--i know how to build the bldg---just want to square em--and treat em so they dont rot. if the creosote at bottom, and oil at top will do it--thats what i will do--wish i could find some real creo--


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## Old Hilly (Feb 13, 2010)

Oly, perhaps I didn't make myself clear on one point. Only mill the part of the pole that is out of the ground and not exposed to the weather. Below floor level the poles should be round with all their treatment intact. Above floor level, where the walls are and where the untreated timber will be protected from the weather you can have the pole sawn square or whatever shape you want. What you need to do is keep the weather away from the untreated timber.
Do you folks have Termites where you are? We have about 20 varieties on the East Coast of OZ and some of them are real nasty little buggers. On a quiet night you can hear some of them munching on a Pine frame in a house. They usually move out just before the whole lot colapses around your ears though. 
Dennis.


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## olyman (Feb 14, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Oly, perhaps I didn't make myself clear on one point. Only mill the part of the pole that is out of the ground and not exposed to the weather. Below floor level the poles should be round with all their treatment intact. Above floor level, where the walls are and where the untreated timber will be protected from the weather you can have the pole sawn square or whatever shape you want. What you need to do is keep the weather away from the untreated timber.
> Do you folks have Termites where you are? We have about 20 varieties on the East Coast of OZ and some of them are real nasty little buggers. On a quiet night you can hear some of them munching on a Pine frame in a house. They usually move out just before the whole lot colapses around your ears though.
> Dennis.



thats a bit plainer--


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## Old Hilly (Feb 15, 2010)

Sorry mate, the old brain just wanders off into the wilderness sometimes.
Is this going to be a suspended floor or a concrete slab laid on the ground? If it's slab-on-ground, leave a gap around the base of each pole so you can get some more wood treatment down to the ground-line of the pole, just in case something goes a bit wrong.
Dennis.


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## olyman (Feb 15, 2010)

concrete not right a way--cost!!! but if i do--ill drive large lag screws into the sides of the post where the concrete pours against it--so they are tied together--even of the pole rots below ground----itll stay put--


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## Old Hilly (Feb 17, 2010)

Power poles are like boats, they rot between wind and water. In other words, in the area that gets wet, then dries out, then gets wet again. The bit well above ground will last for many years because it is basically dry all the time and the bit of the butt that is well down in the ground will also be fine because it is always wet. The area about 6" above ground and perhaps 12" to 18" below ground is where the problems usually happen. I would guess that 90% of our hardwood posts and poles will snap off at the ground-line or just below it and this is the area that recieves all the attention from the blokes doing the pole inspection and treatment.
Oh, my acheing back!!!!
Good luck with the shed,
Dennis.


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## sbhooper (Feb 19, 2010)

Many years ago I worked a tie gang on the railroad. We unloaded thousands of ties that were dripping with fresh creosote. At the end of the day, the fumes made you feel like you had a bad sunburn on your face. It is not very healthy, that's for sure, but I think people have gotten so nuts over health issues that they over-react to things also. Unless you are doing it all day every day, I seriously doubt that sawing these poles is going to subtract from your life. I would definitely not burn them, but they would be great fence boards or posts and I don't think an occasional milling job will hurt anybody. If it is an issue, then just wear a mask to keep the dust out of your lungs. 

Some of the older green-treated stuff had arsenic in it and that is a different story.


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