# second injuryfor the same man



## darkstar (Sep 29, 2005)

last week i posted about my climber getting slammed in the leg and his ER visit ....well today he was climbing and recieved a harsh cut across his thigh .. details are unclear my other climber said he was hurrying way to much and could have avoided it .... the climber who got hurt says the tree was wet and he slipped ...ummmm these 2 climbers compete anyhow so i never know the trueth ...id say he was climbing like he always does fast as ,,,,,, any how i hope this slows him down .......15 staples it could have been far worse .... he ,,,,so far will not wear chaps ,,,,while climbing ... anyhow we took him to a clinic where they cut out all the loose meat and fat ,,,,no internal stiches were needed .... just the 15 staples ... i thought it was weird that the doc did not prescribe any antibiotics ... i told the doc i thought with a chansaw cut he deff. needed a 7 day course of something like augmentin ... doc said i was wrong not needed ,,,, he said he cleaned it out incredibly well .... 
so 7 working days and the first 2 injuries of any man ever working for me ... also i paid out of pocket for the doc visit as somehow the health insurance company decided that he has been cancelled .... thats blue cross blue sheild ... now i have to figure that out ... they paid last weeks ER visit ...... the climber is walking around and says hes ready to work on monday ....hell be really sore tomorrow the pain shots are soon to wear off... personally im bummed as heck ... yeah it could have been worse ... but ,, this is the work we do,,,, and im having a hard time not paying my men what they are worth ...i pay excellant ... but my competition pays ???? wages and [[[well hacks ]]]]]..... its like what new buisness do i need to start .... im thankful it wasent worse ... 
one of the best tree services here in my city says they are barely keeping their heads above water ...thay have a good rep its the workmans comp thats killin them ...and health insurance ..... im having a hard time moving forward knowing that the hacks are doing better ..... i want my men covered ..... they should be ...asplunds climbers dont even get health ....... wtf


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## VTclimber (Sep 29, 2005)

Do you think this guy is hurrying to try to make the company money, or just to show off to his buddy? If he just wants to look cool, maybe you'd be wise to consider making him stay in for a few days and watch safety videos or something to cool him down, since obviously getting hurt and going to the ER doesn't have that effect. If he's trying to make the company money, you need to make him understand that he'd make a lot more if he didn't rush to the point where he is careless, causing the company to spend money on insurance and medical needs. Of course, he could just be a good climber who works fast and is having a rough time getting back into the swing after his last incident and is making mistakes. My $.02


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## Trinity Honoria (Sep 29, 2005)

have you had drug screens done at the ER? many companies, at an accident, have a drug screen done (alcohol and other chemicals)... it can save you if the employee was impaired at the time of the accident when he was injured...

just a thought


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## darkstar (Sep 29, 2005)

hes clean... and really i think hes just a really good YOUNG climber he doesent try to show off ... but he does get the work done fast ... to fast aparently .... i hope this slows him down ... either way for me the owner .... i spent 6 months out once for a sever cut almost 20 years ago .... basically its a buisness downer ... you got asplundi paying ???? wages then you got the state of tennessee not requiring tree companies with less than 5 full timers to carry workmans comp .... what kind of market does that set up .....


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

If it were me, I'd let him go having a record like that.


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## darkstar (Sep 29, 2005)

let him go ??? and where the heck do i get a qualified on time climber with great skills to match ... plus he can back a chipper down a 10 foot wide lane with mercedes benz on bothe side and not make a scratch .... ive had 2 really good climbers and they are both on the team now .... 
SPACEMULE ? how many climbers do you have obviously many many .... i guess they are indespensible to you as you have such a good rescource available ? correct me bro if im wrong .....


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## Trinity Honoria (Sep 29, 2005)

darkstar said:


> hes clean...



i wasn't saying he wasn't clean... but it is a protection to you... because you can state clearly to workman's comp, your liability insurer, etc. that you know, without a doubt, that he was clean... it's CYA at many companies (i'm talking companies in general, not this biz)...


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

No, I'm not in the business. But I do know that keeping the accident prone is not business minded, nor is it a way to make money. But, as I said, I'm not in the business. You obviously have a different perspective.


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## Newfie (Sep 29, 2005)

darkstar said:


> cut out all the loose meat and fat ,,,,no internal stiches were needed .... just the 15 staples ... i thought it was weird that the doc did not prescribe any antibiotics ... i told the doc i thought with a chansaw cut he deff. needed a 7 day course of something like augmentin ... doc said i was wrong not needed ,,,, he said he cleaned it out incredibly well ....



Are you an arborist or an MD? Maybe you can have the ER doc come give you some advice on hairy takedowns. I bet his opinion would be about as valid as your medical opinion.

How much money is this guy gonna cost you before you see the light? For some reason he has become unsafe and you need to address the issue before he costs you your livelihood. Maybe someone else gets hurt next time becasue of his actions.


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## Diesel JD (Sep 29, 2005)

This is a rough crowd....bosses like Darkstar that take care of their employees are few and far between. For taking care of the guy I think he should be commended and not insulted. Tree work isn't a desk job, crap happens. The questionis is he being as safe as he should be? Maybe, maybe not....I'd not take teh word of a known rival....but then again I'm not in business, or even a tree cutter myself. What he's doing just seems liek common decency, business sense maybe something else, just my thoughts,
J.D.


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

If safety rules are not enforced, the employee is the last person being thought of. That's life.


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## Diesel JD (Sep 29, 2005)

What of this equipment will really save you from a chainsaw cut in the worst case scenario? It's a fast machine, the best safety is to keep it's teeth away from your skin. This means be aware of kickback and use common sense. No one handing! Some of this other stuff is thought up by paper pushers who never run a saw...IMO, you need ear protection, hard hat when in a tree or felling, long pants and eye protection's probably a good idea, but I've never heard of a serious injury from a woodchip hitting you in the eye. Really, if the employer sets reasonable rules, it's the employee's responsibility to follow them, not the boss's responsibility to hold his hand.


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

Yes, and if the employee neglects his responsibilities, whose job is it to rectify the situation?


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## Dadatwins (Sep 29, 2005)

If its the same accident in similiar circumstance that quickly there is a problem in my opinion. Definitly time to sit down with employee and have a face to face chat. I would also sit down with the other employees on the scene of these accidents and see what they have to say about the work habits of this employee. A drug test would also be recomended in my opinion just to have the documentation for the insurance company. Shows the other employees that you are concerned for their safety as well. A fast worker that gets lots of production is great to have but if its going to kill you in accidents and medical cost might be time to start looking for replacement. Good luck.


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## darkstar (Sep 29, 2005)

spacemule u make me sick .... and anyone else who thinks the risk in tree climbing are not always uncalculated ...... shiit happens ....[[[[this climber]]]]] has been with me for 4 years with no accidents .... you want me to fire him .... fack you ....... just like some ???? big co op ....... never mind the bro who sweats his ass off doing the hard work ... ill pay his bills..... i may never be a big time super money maker ......but ill at least know i did the right thing ...... i need some help yo ekka over in oz .....


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

Thank you. 

Just remember that the company's best interest, yours, and the employees are all mutually related. You yourself said you had problems enforcing safety rules, which is not doing the right thing by the guy. You can be pals off the clock, on the clock work and safety and production require discipline from all involved in order to be not only efficient, but to "do the right thing."


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## Dadatwins (Sep 29, 2005)

darkstar said:


> spacemule u make me sick .... and anyone else who thinks the risk in tree climbing are not always uncalculated ...... shiit happens ....[[[[this climber]]]]] has been with me for 4 years with no accidents .... you want me to fire him .... fack you ....... just like some ???? big co op ....... never mind the bro who sweats his ass off doing the hard work ... ill pay his bills..... i may never be a big time super money maker ......but ill at least know i did the right thing .....



Not denying the risks in the biz dude, my insurance premiums refect that annually. 4 years without injury is a nice record, all the more reason to have a sit down and find out what is going on. New girlfriend, different brand of beer, new rope technique, you need to find out what is in this employees head before something else happens to him or another employee or a customer. Applause for doing the right thing and paying the bills, but is the employee doing the right thing also? Think about it.


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## darkstar (Sep 29, 2005)

SPACE MULE sorry to take offense so quickly .... my bad ...... you offer good advice ...... im angry ..... its the big picture ..im angry at .... i think many know this .......... anyhow ....................


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## spacemule (Sep 29, 2005)

No problem darkstar. I did speak rather quickly myself.


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## stehansen (Sep 30, 2005)

Many companies enforce safety regulations much more stringently than we do at most small tree companies. There is a power generating plant down the street from us and I hear that if you are caught out in the plant without a hardhat, safety glasses, and ear protection you are fired, no excuses, no second chances.


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## Koa Man (Sep 30, 2005)

It is far easier for large companies to strictly enforce rules because the employees know if they got canned, the company would lose less than 1% of the workforce. A small company with 3-5 employees would lose 20-33% of the workforce. That makes each individual far more valuable. One time I did fire my only 2 employees. One climber and one groundman. My advantage was I know how to climb and was not at the mercy of the climber and was not about to take any attitude from him and his brother (the groundman). It set me back about 3 weeks, but after they were gone I got better employees and business gets better.


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## Ekka (Sep 30, 2005)

Darkstar

I've been extremely busy and sorry my posting has been way down. I have had Awsomeclimber Derek here for 4 days helping me as I have been left with no staff!

In the 4 days that Derek was here we had 2 different new guys ready to start, we even rang them the night before and they were Keen as mustard, full of promises, and on both days no show!!

The two of us got all the work done and we have had some huge days, hardly even time for a pic let alone video.

So, I'm with you, chit happens and staff are bloody hard to find ... this is just typical here as we enter our hotter period.

Climbers? Thank goodness I can do that to as they're rare, and good ones are incredibly rare. 

W/C rules are chit, its a crazy world filled with stupid rules. Just keep your eye on the tree, and have the young fella wear some chainsaw pants if he's a goer ... chit happens.


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## CoreyTMorine (Sep 30, 2005)

he's probably still healing from the chipper hit, so he's favoring his leg, causing him to fall and cut himself. keep him on the ground for 5 or 6 weeks ,longer, let things heal up. your injured climber, who sounds like a hell of an employee, will be back in the trees soon enough. in the meantime his competitive friend can do all of the climbing, after a month or so he'll be happy to see the other guy back doing production.

DS, you sound like a great employer, thats nice to read about.


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## darkstar (Sep 30, 2005)

well guys quick update on my climber ,,,sure nuff around noon he calls in asking to borrow a chain saw for a small side job him with his 15 staples .... i let him have that a throwline and a rope .... and my baby 394xp .... i made sure it wasent any job related to our company .... he said it was a friend of a friend s ... quick money he nees for the week end ..... i was pretty amazed ..he said it doesent really hurt unless i touch it 
anhow we finished up the injury job and the crew is on the way in from doing yet another job so the week has turned up .... a good week after all course its not over yet [[[actuallly theres my truck pullin in ]]] time to make pay roll .... dark


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## rfwoodvt (Sep 30, 2005)

Darkstar, 

Sorry to hear about BC/BS dropping your guy. But what I don't get is why Workmans Comp hasn't picked up the bill.

Do you have WC? does your State require it?

If you don't have it and this guy gets hurt enough times or worse, hurts or kills someone else, you will be held extremely responsible.

Cutting this guy so much slack, including loaning him gear for a "side job" when he should be on the disabled list is playing russian roulette.

What you are describing here is a pattern of exceptions and behaviour that will not look very good for you when you end up being sued.

Sounds like you are stacking the odds in favor of the first person to file suite against your company.

Beware my friend and play it smart...better to lose a little business trying to do things right rather than being put out of business by skirting the edges. The short term is not nearly as important as the long term.


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## darkstar (Sep 30, 2005)

rfwoodvt .... i totally agree ... at this point after talking with him in lenght ...after he brought my saws back and ropes .....only the day after he got hurt .... hes a loose cannon .....and id appreciate any other response here .... so he comes in today the day after getting 15 staples and this is where it get hard ,,,,, he was all red faced ...and obviously worked ... over heated .... he doesent drink so ... anyhow the pull over that he described ...well could not be pulled over so he climbed a severe lighting struck tree and topped it lowered limbs etc etc .... ive seen him for 4 years in action ...and if he says it was dangerous IT WAS .... i ask him why the hell he is doing this ....what gives ...i tell him look bro you gotta slow down ....he says i gotta provide for my family ...i respond well what if you are not here ,,,,,,, cool as he says you got a point there jerry ..... now im left to think this one out ,,,,,,,


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## Eagle1 (Sep 30, 2005)

> If it were me, I'd let him go having a record like that.



Whats next? I agree. I would be very worried.


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## Eagle1 (Sep 30, 2005)

And whats with no chaps? That should be manditory from the owner. If someone does not wear their safty equipment....
First. Warning
Second. Fine
Theird. Bye


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## Diesel JD (Sep 30, 2005)

Sounds like he may be under some financial pressure. Creditors beating down the door...he's doing stupid stuff to make ends meet. At least I have more respect for that kinda guy than somebody who wil lsit on his butt waiting for a government dole. Good luck and hope you guys can work things out,
J.D.


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## rfwoodvt (Sep 30, 2005)

In all fairness to the climber, I know what he means about having to provide...I spent a week in the hospital and 3 weeks resting fafter having a blood clot form in my heart this past June. ....sucked sitting around...I had ta get back to work.

But, cooler heads prevailed and I'm learning to slow down. He can too. Then Again, if he keeps this stuff up he may well end up not being able to work at all.

I had a buddy in the fire service who would always take a moment to grab a drink of water and take a leak when a call came in... I thought he was NUTS! but, he explained, the 30 seconds or so that he took to calm down was insurance that he would get to the alarm alive.

the tree will be there, the work will be there, Customers always want it yesterday, but all we have is today. Makes one stop and think...

Make sure your guy knows that you actually care about him and his family. Make sure that he know you will do what you can so that he can make the smart choices for them.

Help him....just remember that helping means teaching to fish, not giving him the fish, or excuses.

Hang in there...Think it through...then go and do whats right for all concerned.


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## green leaf (Sep 30, 2005)

Great for you being a caring boss, that is how respect is gained from employees. It sounds like you have a decision on your hands, this is a part of being a boss that sucks. I do have a policy with anyone that works for me and that is no cutter pants (chaps) or PPE then no work. I give them $ to wards equipment so there is no excuse for not having or using them. 

This is a great time to enforce a chaps rule for your guys, now they can see first hand what happens when you do not were them. And I know that they are there for last resort, and in this type of work shoot happens.

Darkstar good luck and let us know what happens.


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## sharpstikman (Sep 30, 2005)

mr.darkstar. have you talked with your other climber? I think you should mandatory groundy for 6wks . is this guy a (hacker) on the side ,or is he useing your company name to get the side jobs. reason being ,he got hurt on your time you took care of him , your money,down time ,STRESS....no more stop it now!! before this guy gets killed! we hear of these accidents all the time on this site and 2 out of3 says I should have seen it comming, I should done something sooner. if you are as honest a person as you sound then this EMPLOYEE should listen to the OWNER/BOSS or its time to say by-by. sharpstikman


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## darkstar (Oct 1, 2005)

mt stress level is eating me alive ...i can feel a big funky hollow place in my gut .... good news is i head to spain for 2 weeks in about 10 days ...thats gonna help 
we have a meeting planned for monday morning i think with some new rules enforced after that things are going to slow down and become a bit safer .
otherwise im shutting down for a spell ... we got 2 months work sheduled in advance but things have got to be right ... 
ill make it so thanx dark


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