# Pine Bark Beetle



## HS Climber (Mar 18, 2009)

Im am still in high school and in our forestry class for the state forestry competition we have a land management event and its in the centeral part of oregon and half of the land we are managing is invaided with pine bark beetles there is some dead trees but not alot. Just wondering what is some ways to control this, we watched some videos on thinning. and juniper trees are starting to take over too.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 18, 2009)

if the bugs are already in the trees, those trees are done. the only way i know of to manage this is to remove all trees that have bugs in them, and to debark them and grind the slash. typically they say that the beetles leave the trees looking for new ones around the 1st of july. there are pheromones that persuade the beetles to leave the unaffected trees alone. a local forester should be able to guide you there. the pheromones can be applied by air, or by workers on the ground, and for small areas are not cost prohibitive.
if you wait until august, the trees that had the bugs in them, and the ones that now have bugs in them are all dead. they wont look dead for a while, but they are already gone.


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## rdbrumfield (Mar 18, 2009)

I am amazed at how bad the beetle kill is. I have been hunting the Wyoming continental divide for 8yrs and it was so nice. Now it is just a brownout. If they ever have a lightning strike medicine bow national forest is going up in one mushroom of smoke.


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## M.R. (Mar 18, 2009)

HS Climber said:


> Im am still in high school and in our forestry class for the state forestry competition we have a land management event and its in the centeral part of oregon and half of the land we are managing is invaided with pine bark beetles there is some dead trees but not alot. Just wondering what is some ways to control this, we watched some videos on thinning. and juniper trees are starting to take over too.



Short answer: As the take over of the juniper is already stated.

I would thin to give a good crown release and dispose of the slash [IPS]. If the resource's were available -Fertilize.


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## WidowMaker (Mar 18, 2009)

Ddt


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## slowp (Mar 18, 2009)

Here is the latest. Now, the guy at the end is a naysayer on pretty much everything, so take his comments with a grain of salt. 

_Study: Herbal tea may save West's pines
By JEFF BARNARD Associated Press



GRANTS PASS, Ore. - Would a dose of herbal tea slow the march of beetles killing millions of acres of pine trees across the West?

Sort of.

But instead of brewing up a cup, U.S. Forest Service scientists found that sprinkling tiny flakes containing the pheromone verbenone over lodgepole pine forests cut the number of trees attacked by bark beetles by about two-thirds.


Verbenone is found in rosemary and walnut husks and approved for use in herbal teas.

It also resembles a pheromone the beetles give off to tell one another that their tree is getting crowded, and it would be better to pick another one.

Forest Service entomologist Nancy Gillette, lead author on the study, said scientists have known for a decade that when bark beetles smell verbenone they tend to disperse.

The problem has been to find a cheap and effective way of distributing it, and Gillette says sprinkling flakes from helicopters is the best way yet.

It costs about $110 an acre, compared with $1,000 an acre or more for thinning. Insecticides are also expensive, and kill lots of beneficial insects.

Gillette said she could foresee the technique being used around campgrounds, visitor centers and ski resorts, where it would be desirable to save trees.

Andy Stahl, director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics, said it would be fruitless to use across large areas, because the beetles infest only mature trees weakened by factors such as drought, and the infestations are part of a natural cycle that replaces lodgepole pine forests every 100 years.

“All you are doing is saving (commercially) worthless trees in order that they burn next year,” he said.

The beetles have killed millions of acres of pine forests, touching every state in the West.

Warming temperatures have meant winters no longer get cold enough to routinely kill the insects, so more of them survive to bore into trees, which fight them off by oozing sap.

In Colorado alone, a survey found nearly 2 million acres of forests killed by beetles. The biggest outbreak in North America is in British Columbia, where 23 million acres have been killed. _

As for commercially worthless trees, that depends on the size, where they are located, and what the house log market is.


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## ShoerFast (Mar 18, 2009)

Just my $0.03 cents worth...

Drought effected areas, thinning (culling) effected and undesirable trees increases the resistance of the remaining trees by not sharing the water with as many trees. Healthier trees just fair better. 

Being a natural skeptic, wouldn't hormone treatment just drive the beetle to a more pleasant environment? 

It is hard for me to believe that your going to trick the beetle for more then a few acres, there going to catch on to this and land of a tree sooner or later. 

My money is on thinning, proven, and you get a healthier forest with better fire prevention/control.


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## rdbrumfield (Mar 19, 2009)

what's to thin, whole forests are dead.


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## clearance (Mar 19, 2009)

rdbrumfield said:


> what's to thin, whole forests are dead.



Yep. Nothing works. Sad,but true.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 19, 2009)

clearance said:


> Yep. Nothing works. Sad,but true.



That's when it's time for a little fire....or a big one.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 19, 2009)

rdbrumfield said:


> what's to thin, whole forests are dead.



That's what it's like out west of where I live. Hundreds of square miles of uninterrupted red (and many now gray) trees. This has presented another problem regarding water, though opposite of what has been already pointed out. Since most of the trees are dead in many areas, there is nothing to suck up the water from the soil. Vast areas west of here are fairly flat and are turning into swampland for months at a time. Breakup season used to last a couple to three months, now we're looking at almost twice that in some areas.

The sad thing is that I remember 20 years ago when really nobody knew about the pine beetle, and it was limited to a very small stand of Pines out west of here, near the coast in Tweedsmuir Park. But since it was a park, the government at the time was unwilling to step in and work on the problem, and instead let nature take its course. We've had some incredibly warm winters in the years between - whether a cycle or climate change or whatever - and now here we are. They did the same thing in 2003 with a forest fire in almost exactly the same area. The estimated cost to fight the original fire was about a quarter of a million dollars, but they decided to let it burn itself out because it was a park. But because of the beetle-killed trees and some unfortunate wind, instead it grew into one of the largest fires in BC history and cost many millions to put out, after destroying massive amounts of forest and property. I agree with letting some fires go, especially in light of the beetle problem, but uncontrolled, unprepared fires in beetle-kill is unwise at best.


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## slowp (Mar 19, 2009)

I worked in an area where there was a good market for dead and dying lodgepole. The prescription was cut all the lodgepole and leave the non-lodgepole. There was a good market for houselogs--so good that they hauled them 9 hours to Missoula. Then 9 hours back empty. What we ended up with on the ground were good sized safety zones to go to when the unlogged parts of the area went up in flames. 

Yes, the water table rises without those trees to suck it up. There were problems with the roads. The loggers made a few corduroy sections out of their lodgepole logs, improvised drainage with irrigation pipes and actually plowed up the road to speed up drying. Most of the area was logged during the winter, when there was lots of snow on the ground. That area has not burned up, yet. All this took place in the early 1990s. 

Now the mill that took the non-house logs no longer exists. Maybe biomass burning plants will eventually be a market for it. The lodgepole sprouted right up to reforest the area because the sun was hot enough to open the cones. 
I believe the area was also broadcast burned. There is no Juniper around that area.


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## HS Climber (Mar 19, 2009)

There is no market anymore for lodgepole pines. no one will take anything. There is biomass though. they will take pine and juniper. the thing we would probably do is thin out the bigger pines becuase of the beetles and thin the juniper trees maybe sell some for biomass and the rest maybe go for firewood.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 19, 2009)

there may not be a market for lodgepole in some places, but here there is. we have only one production mill in the western half of the state, and its production is probably not that high compared to mill in the pnw, but they buy almost everything, ponderosa, lodgepole, spruce, doug-fir etc... on any given day there are log trucks hauling the stuff up to 5 hours to the mill, i only rarely see a truck with anything but lodgepole on it. alot of the logs are coming from private property where the owner PAYS to have the trees taken out. since alot of the logs are dry, the trucks are loaded to the gills by volume not weight. over the last few years the mills around here pay about $230 to $250/ mbf for most species.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 19, 2009)

No market for lodgepole? As long as there's any market for studs & framing lumber, there's a market for lodgepole - it's about the best framing lumber you can find. Spruce isn't as strong, and Douglas Fir is too hard and is more difficult to work with. Around here the lodgepoles in the bush have been dead for too long, and are getting so dry that they're almost un-millable. They explode in the debarkers, and if they're lucky enough to make it through the mill intact, the kiln-drying process overdries them, producing shakes and splits to the point that they blow up in the planer or fall apart on the chains. 

Biomass is a good idea though - here where I live we have the largest wood biomass energy plant in Canada, and I think possibly North America, but I'm not sure. Since all the mills here are pretty much shut down, they've been hurting for fuel. A couple local logging operations have switched over to grinding up slash piles and pulp-grade wood that would otherwise be burnt in the field just to feed the power plant. Another is building a shavings mill and will separate pulp chips to go to a pulp mill they have money in, shavings and fines to the local wood pellet plant, and the bark/hog to the power plant. They're good operations, it's just too bad that they don't employ anywhere near as many people as the mills can.


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## forestryworks (Mar 19, 2009)

if they would clearcut alot of those lodgepole and help a variety of trees get established, then the next time around it won't be so bad.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 19, 2009)

Brmorgan said:


> That's what it's like out west of where I live. Hundreds of square miles of uninterrupted red (and many now gray) trees. This has presented another problem regarding water, though opposite of what has been already pointed out. Since most of the trees are dead in many areas, there is nothing to suck up the water from the soil. Vast areas west of here are fairly flat and are turning into swampland for months at a time. Breakup season used to last a couple to three months, now we're looking at almost twice that in some areas.
> 
> The sad thing is that I remember 20 years ago when really nobody knew about the pine beetle, and it was limited to a very small stand of Pines out west of here, near the coast in Tweedsmuir Park. But since it was a park, the government at the time was unwilling to step in and work on the problem, and instead let nature take its course. We've had some incredibly warm winters in the years between - whether a cycle or climate change or whatever - and now here we are. They did the same thing in 2003 with a forest fire in almost exactly the same area. The estimated cost to fight the original fire was about a quarter of a million dollars, but they decided to let it burn itself out because it was a park. But because of the beetle-killed trees and some unfortunate wind, instead it grew into one of the largest fires in BC history and cost many millions to put out, after destroying massive amounts of forest and property. I agree with letting some fires go, especially in light of the beetle problem, but uncontrolled, unprepared fires in beetle-kill is unwise at best.



The whole story is even sadder. The government was willing to step in, had taken the initial steps, but was demonstrated against in Victoria and threatened with lawsuits by some of the environmentalists. I have no beefs with a lot of environmentalists, but ones such as this cause a huge amount of damage in the future while giving themselves pats on the back for some questionable acts in the present. Some of these idiots move from cause to cause without once taking responsibility for their actions. This is not environmentalism, it is self aggrandizement! ( C'mon D.S. stand up and take another bow.)


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## clearance (Mar 19, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> The whole story is even sadder. The government was willing to step in, had taken the initial steps, but was demonstrated against in Victoria and threatened with lawsuits by some of the environmentalists. I have no beefs with a lot of environmentalists, but ones such as this cause a huge amount of damage in the future while giving themselves pats on the back for some questionable acts in the present. Some of these idiots move from cause to cause without once taking responsibility for their actions. This is not environmentalism, it is self aggrandizement! ( C'mon D.S. stand up and take another bow.)



Yep. D.S. was nominated as the greatest Canadian ever, a little while back, God help us.


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## HS Climber (Mar 19, 2009)

yeah seems like you cant cut down a tree without the environmentalists all over your back.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 19, 2009)

Just the point! If you are a real environmentalist you measure the pros and cons. Some of the best environmentalists I have met were out in the woods cutting trees all their lives. Some of the worst were highly educated in "environmental science" and had never left the proximities of the city except to protest in the summer. If somebody feeds you a line - call them on it immediately! If they can defend it -fine. If they can't, ignore them and tell everybody you know to ignore them too. We now have most of the western pine forests at risk because of a few educated idiots being catered to by weak-knees. We need synthesis, not hysteria!


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## Brmorgan (Mar 20, 2009)

The Western forests, at least the northern ones, are already a writeoff statistically. The real challenge now is to get the bloody thing stopped in Alberta, Montana, Colorado, etc. on the East side of the Rockies. If that doesn't happen it will get into the Jackpines up here, and could eventually run east through the White pines and all the way down south-east into the Longleafs and others. Nobody originally thought that Ponderosas were in much danger. Oops.

I agree with the environmentalist problem. I can understand protesting virgin old-growth logging in many areas, but to protest destroying possibly a couple square miles of relatively young, fast-growing forest in order to eradicate a major pest?


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## windthrown (Mar 20, 2009)

Brmorgan said:


> No market for lodgepole? As long as there's any market for studs & framing lumber, there's a market for lodgepole - it's about the best framing lumber you can find. Spruce isn't as strong, and Douglas Fir is too hard and is more difficult to work with.



Doug fir is a lot stronger wood, and because of that it is required for framing in most of the western US states (by code). It has been that way here since before my time. I would not say that it is any harder or more difficult to work with than pine, having built several houses myself. I would rather have a stick built house framed with Doug fir. Pine is good for furnature, door and window framing, paneling, flooring and a lot of other stuff though. They do use a lot of pine for framing houses in the southern US. 

BUT... and the big BUT now is the economy here. Most mills here are shut or running on skelleton crews. House building has slowed to a crawl. Lodgepoles do not command much of a market value here in Oregon. Klamath is the only area where it is listed here, and they were paying $265/MBF for it in the 4th Q of 2008. That was less than half of what Doug fir was going for at the time. 

Maybe we can get Obama to spend the money to harvest the Lodgepoles and sequester the carbon in them and sink them into the Pacific Ocean, beetles and all? Or have the big companies that dump CO2 into the atmosphere pay for the logging of the buggy pine trees and get the carbon credits for doing it? :monkey: Hey, may as well get some of the pork out of the current US administration. That may not solve Canada's problem though. Sadly they made the same mistake that then Governor Brown did in California when the Mediterranean fruit fly showed up down there. It would have been easy to spray a small area to begin with and get rid of them. But no.... he let it get out of hand, and they wound up spraying whole counties with malathion for millions, and it cost him the governor's seat in the next election.


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## windthrown (Mar 20, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> The whole story is even sadder. The government was willing to step in, had taken the initial steps, but was demonstrated against in Victoria and threatened with lawsuits by some of the environmentalists. I have no beefs with a lot of environmentalists, but ones such as this cause a huge amount of damage in the future while giving themselves pats on the back for some questionable acts in the present. Some of these idiots move from cause to cause without once taking responsibility for their actions. This is not environmentalism, it is self aggrandizement! ( C'mon D.S. stand up and take another bow.)



Similar thing happened in and around San Diego County, CA. But it was after the fact of the pine tree stands dying from beetle infestations. They had huge stands of dead pines down there. They wanted to log and clear them. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOO! The tree huggers demanded that the dead trees stay in place for natural habitat and bio-eco-groovey-friendly-ness and all that. So they tied it up in court. So long in fact, that the stand was dead and dry and just waiting for a fire to come along, and come along it did. San Deigo county was ablaze for a good long time in one of the largest wildfires in California history. 

Responsibility? :monkey: Did those environmental groups that tied those stands up in court take any responsibility, accountability, or anything else? No no no no no no no... its not the beetles or the environmentalists fault for the fires, its GLOBAL WARMING! Yes, blame something else! Global warming casued the beetles to survive longer in warmer climates, and thus kill the trees, and thus cause the fires.


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## windthrown (Mar 20, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> Just the point! If you are a real environmentalist you measure the pros and cons. Some of the best environmentalists I have met were out in the woods cutting trees all their lives. Some of the worst were highly educated in "environmental science" and had never left the proximities of the city except to protest in the summer. If somebody feeds you a line - call them on it immediately! If they can defend it -fine. If they can't, ignore them and tell everybody you know to ignore them too. We now have most of the western pine forests at risk because of a few educated idiots being catered to by weak-knees. We need synthesis, not hysteria!



Have to agree on that one. I consider myself an "environmentalist," and after 4 years of managing an 85 acre mixed-species tree stand, I believe that clear cutting is the best forest harvesting method that there is. No other method puts more boimass on the soil or grows as much biomass in as short a time. No other method sequesters more CO2 and creates a marketable product any better or faster. It also creates a 40-50 year habitat available for wildlife. I also have observed that old growth groves are typically in poor health, and not the best use of the forest land. I agree that a lot of old growth tracts should be preserved, like Bull of the Woods. However, I have seen the tree huggers demonstrate on and around some rather obscure 200 year old trees in west Douglas County that took me 3 hours just to find. OK, they were larger older stands of trees, but nothing that I would consider more valuable just because they were old trees. Similar sitation with several BLM tracts adjacent to the trees I managed. They should have been logged 20 years ago, but they are all still tied up in court. They stick out like old unkempt scragly stands now. Borken tops and half decayed trees with conks growing on them. They are all but dead. They will burn the fastest of any tracts if and when a fire rolls through there. The spotted owl must be preserved! So it can be naturally replaced by the barred owl.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 20, 2009)

Right now we are going through the down cycle of hemlock in my area. Happens every forty to sixty years, and they are designed by nature to act as nurse trees for fir and cedar. Its amazing what sort of numbers some of the environmentalists come up with for their ages! This is undiluted B.S. and does nothing for the science of forest management. Lets all make sure we call it B.S. and let people who make patently false claims flounder. I'm also all for the woodlot system. Hard to get going, but, on average, nothing beats private ownership for ensuring the best for the land. Logging is a classic example of where the "tragedy of the commons" argument applies. Neither flat rate stumpage nor bonus bidding really addresses long term return of, and protection for, the land. I really am beginning to believe that adding western red alder into the rotation as a furniture/trim/flooring wood may be the saviour of the western forest industry.
If you can get carbon credits while they grow (from that environmental boondoggle!) so much the better.


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## slowp (Mar 20, 2009)

forestryworks said:


> if they would clearcut alot of those lodgepole and help a variety of trees get established, then the next time around it won't be so bad.



Lodgepole begats Lodgepole. We tried. That was the idea when leaving the other conifers. Lodgepole came back in naturally. I thinned and killed Lodgepole in my early days. I think we should have left it, then logged it. Lodgepole makes nice log houses. Now, with everybody talking about biomass, it seems the perfect tree for that. Grows easily and quickly. It gets no respect, until it burns.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 20, 2009)

$265 a thousand? someone is paying that now? i dont think we ever got that much around here. doug fir doesnt even pay that much.

i was a builder for 21 years, doug-fir is only required by code in certain municipalities, and then usually only for structural timbers. for the last several years all heavy timbers have been spec'd as FOHC #1. for framing material, i would rather use lodgepole than hem-fir which is the only alternative to doug-fir around here. i always liked framing with doug-fir better. hem-fir warped badly, doesnt hold a nail, and is definitely not as strong.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 20, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> Right now we are going through the down cycle of hemlock in my area. Happens every forty to sixty years, and they are designed by nature to act as nurse trees for fir and cedar. Its amazing what sort of numbers some of the environmentalists come up with for their ages! This is undiluted B.S. and does nothing for the science of forest management. Lets all make sure we call it B.S. and let people who make patently false claims flounder. I'm also all for the woodlot system. Hard to get going, but, on average, nothing beats private ownership for ensuring the best for the land. Logging is a classic example of where the "tragedy of the commons" argument applies. Neither flat rate stumpage nor bonus bidding really addresses long term return of, and protection for, the land. I really am beginning to believe that adding western red alder into the rotation as a furniture/trim/flooring wood may be the saviour of the western forest industry.
> If you can get carbon credits while they grow (from that environmental boondoggle!) so much the better.



Excuse me, you WANT the big timber companies to have control of our forests like the government wants to do? WTF? That could restrict public use of forest land to an insane degree. Say goodbye to cutting firewood on Crown land, and going fishing on any little patch of water you decide to. Private ownership of our forests ensures the best for the company's financial bottom line, nothing more. Profit takes precedence every time. I don't mind companies being in charge of the actual cutblocks they're cutting from, but the government wants to allot immense swaths of forest to individual companies, out of which they can decide what and where to cut. What they don't cut would still be under their control and they could dictate what can and cannot be done on that land. Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid, but I don't want to end up like some European countries like Germany, where there's no such thing as public land and you can't even go fishing unless you know someone who owns waterfront.

Regarding the hemlock die-off, sometimes they can _appear_ to be all dying off even when they're not. Hemlock trees have a "drooping leader", that is, the top of the tree isn't straight and bends over so the flat needles are aligned to the sun. After they reach a certain size/age, the tops break off - if there is a large stand of trees about the same size/age, this can happen to multitudes of trees within a couple years of each other. At least it does in the mountains east of here.


slowp - we had the opposite problem up here. Years ago many of the mills were re-planting only Lodgepole on sites where it was not originally the dominant tree, because it grew to millable size the fastest. Now there are many re-planted cutblocks full of only little 25' tall lodgepole, and they're all dead from the beetle so they have to start back at square one again.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2009)

Brad, I have read a lot about the B.C. forest industry history. The Tree Farm License model has done much to ruin our forest productivity. And keep communities dependent. H.R. MacMilan was completly against TFLs, the timber should have always gone to the highest bidder.

What has happened is that the BC Forest Service has become a toy for the huge companies that control our forests, and persecutes the gyppos. They migt not own the land, but when you give people the endless right to log, there is little difference. Look into this, see how TFLs came to be.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 20, 2009)

I definitely *DON'T* want large companies to be in control. What I would prefer is to see far more small well managed woodlots where the consideration is given to the long-run value of the resource. This might even increase the available amount of land for recreational use rather than decrease it as more could come from less area. It also would certainly give small mobile logging companies and individual loggers a more even break.

Regarding the hem, where I am the hems are simply falling over right now and aren't even any good for pulp. What they are good for is rotting on the forest floor and creating fertile seedbeds for the firs and cedars. Every time the wind comes up a few more snap off half way up and you can see the rot right where the snap occurs. Classic example of a decadent forest. The whole works was logged in the 1890's, again in the 30's again in 64, and should have been cleaned up once more about ten years ago. The stuff is so punky its not even any good for firewood, but people are still trying to save it all.

Sorry to get you worried!


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## windthrown (Mar 20, 2009)

spencerhenry said:


> $265 a thousand? someone is paying that now? i dont think we ever got that much around here. doug fir doesnt even pay that much.



That's the pond price in Q4 of '08 from the ODF list in the Klamath basin. Had 7 quotes, so it was not a one-off number either: 

http://oregon.gov/ODF/STATE_FORESTS/TIMBER_SALES/logP408.shtml

Doug fir this side of the Cascades commands a premium.


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## clearance (Mar 20, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> I definitely *DON'T* want large companies to be in control. What I would prefer is to see far more small well managed woodlots where the consideration is given to the long-run value of the resource. This might even increase the available amount of land for recreational use rather than decrease it as more could come from less area. It also would certainly give small mobile logging companies and individual loggers a more even break.
> 
> Regarding the hem, where I am the hems are simply falling over right now and aren't even any good for pulp. What they are good for is rotting on the forest floor and creating fertile seedbeds for the firs and cedars. Every time the wind comes up a few more snap off half way up and you can see the rot right where the snap occurs. Classic example of a decadent forest. The whole works was logged in the 1890's, again in the 30's again in 64, and should have been cleaned up once more about ten years ago. The stuff is so punky its not even any good for firewood, but people are still trying to save it all.
> 
> Sorry to get you worried!


Hemlock is ok for framing, as long as you nail it down good and it stays dry. D-fir is the best though. I have framed lots, and that being said, the very best framing wood is old growth from before WW 2. Clear, with no knots, very tight growth rings. The #2 now would have been left in the bush back then.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree on the hem being OK for framing. Its also a lot better than D-fir for staining and painting as you have to seal the D-fir with shellac for even stain and to prevent sap weep. D-fir is definitely better for framing where the wood might become wet at times.

We used to run 4 separate times. Tops was D-fir, number two was H/F and third was S/P/F,last was the occasional cedar run. Of all the trees the one with the least durability was the spruce. 

I have some of the reclaimed old growth fir on my floors. Eventually the resin solidifies and you end up with a beautiful,rock - hard surface. If I ever get large planks with not too much metal in them then I re-man them into something more valuable on my wood-mizer kilt


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## Brmorgan (Mar 21, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> I agree on the hem being OK for framing. Its also a lot better than D-fir for staining and painting as you have to seal the D-fir with shellac for even stain and to prevent sap weep. D-fir is definitely better for framing where the wood might become wet at times.
> 
> We used to run 4 separate times. Tops was D-fir, number two was H/F and third was S/P/F,last was the occasional cedar run. Of all the trees the one with the least durability was the spruce.
> 
> I have some of the reclaimed old growth fir on my floors. Eventually the resin solidifies and you end up with a beautiful,rock - hard surface. If I ever get large planks with not too much metal in them then I re-man them into something more valuable on my wood-mizer kilt



Old, dry Douglas Fir is hard enough to drive a nail into, I can't imagine Hemlock! My framing nailgun will bounce right back at me and leave the nail sticking out 1" if I happen to hit a good knot in DF. Don't get me wrong though, I've used it lots. I sure hated grading it at work though... You go home with sore wrists from flipping boards on a fir 2X6 run, especially when the boards are coming up to 120/min with only two gradermen. It's just _that_ much heavier that it makes the difference when you're not used to it. 

Hemlock is best for flooring and stair treads, because there is very little difference in hardness between the springwood and summerwood, so it wears very evenly. It can also be a beautiful cabinet wood, especially if it has a lot of mineral streaking. The mills around here pretty much quit cutting Hemlock at in recent years, because it's so much harder on saws and knives and is generally a lot more difficult to access.

I've been gradually collecting good Douglas Fir 1X6 pieces for my kitchen floor from the bigger logs I CSM. I need about 400' SQ of it, so it's taking a while to get enough really nice pieces.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 21, 2009)

Time for a "when I was a lad" here. (Imagine the lumberjack song playing in the background)

When I was fifteen I worked a summer at Doman's Nanaimo Lumber mill on the Fraser River. When I wasn't doing cleanup at the bottom of a gang shute or wandering along open conveyers throwing slabs back into position so they could go through the chipper or up to the burner they had me pulling twenty foot 2x12 to 2x20 hem and fir on the green chain (no drop chutes or anything else, just a cant fulcrum.) Proud to say I went through the whole summer without once putting on women's clothing, suspenders or a bra!!! ( I did my darnedest to take some off though)

2x6 :censored::


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## Brmorgan (Mar 22, 2009)

I hear ya man, I've done my share of heavy lifting on greenchains too, though I maxed out at 2X12X20. Actually the worst was rough & green literal 2X8 Douglas Fir that was going for Belgian export years ago. I never had to pile it on the chain but it was horrible to move around. With grading though it's not the sheer weight but the repetitive nature. Flipping 70 boards a minute has given me mild carpal tunnel syndrome over the last few years. The only time I sucked out and refused to work was when we had to work in -38°C four winters ago. After spending over 10 hours without feeling my fingers and toes, I told them if it was that cold the next night they'd be shorthanded. And it was. I wouldn't mind piling in the cold, at least you can move around and build up some body heat. But I was stuck just standing in one spot all night.

Where ya at, by the way?


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## arbadacarba (Mar 22, 2009)

Bowen now, but looking to buy something up in Bella Coola as well. I also worked in the Hazeltons for a while. As one of the Westar veeps said to me a long time ago - god's country! Didn't appreciate it at the time, but I always seem to go back there when I get the chance. Same for North of Terrace and up west of the Dease lake area. Been most places in the world and I wouldn't trade this province for anything. I think there is more potential here in BC than anywhere else and there are still a lot of good people and room to be free!


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## arbadacarba (Mar 22, 2009)

I wish I still had the picture, but one time we sent a shipload of lumber to Egypt because the Japanese tried the Northwest coal/ very difficultu routine on us. By the time it got there there was a 16 foot 2x6 on the top of one bundle with the two ends meeting in the center. Should have put a BC Homegrown sticker on it and charged extra!


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## smokechase II (Mar 22, 2009)

*Poor kid*

*"Im am still in high school and in our forestry class for the state forestry competition we have a land management event and its in the central part of Oregon and half of the land we are managing is invaded with pine bark beetles there is some dead trees but not a lot. Just wondering what is some ways to control this, we watched some videos on thinning. and juniper trees are starting to take over too."*

==============

HS Climber:

I worked for the USFS south of Bend for nearly three decades.
A few thoughts:

This isn't a Walt Disney movie. Every tree wasn't meant to live forever. Lodgepole was meant to live fast and die. 
Jack Pine succeeds by:
1) Being a hardy tree with regard to cold, (it often gets established in thickets and this allows other species to come in under its canopy because of some thermal cover),
2) Tolerating lots of moisture around its roots, LP does well in wetter meadows than many other species.
3) Reproduce like a newly formed religion after disturbances, (fire - logging -wars etc).

Silviculturists like to teach that if you thin out the beetle infestations you can minimize the impacts. The logic as stated earlier is:
Give a plant a reasonable increase in sunlight, nutrients and water and it will be healthier. It can then fight off insects and disease better.

However, I didn’t see much effectiveness with that in LP stands with regard to the MPB.

I’d recommend the removal of LP from areas has they get hit. Even if they aren’t dead or bug hit YET.

------------------

Try for a stand of mixed species if your site allows that. Perhaps plant other species that are not susceptible.
(That sounds great but often areas with LP will not readily support Ponderosa or other species.)


Lodgepole has a very thin bark that does not protect from fire as much as most other tree species. This is where fire controlled the LP populations the most. It's not that we shouldn't have LP out there. It's not just that with attempted fire removal we have built up fuel loadings.

===============

Fire was a controller of beetles and juniper. Mimic fire or use it.


{Interestingly, historical analysis shows that just after beetle outbreaks we have had only very slightly increased large fire activity. Where things get bad is 7-10 years down the road when all that mess falls over. Ladder fuels.}


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## slowp (Mar 22, 2009)

I am delving back into my lodgepole memory. In the wetter areas, spruce grows pretty good with the lodgepole. But, as Smokechaser states, the lodgepole dies quickly--a silviculturist said there was a rule of 8s for lodgepole.
It lives well to 8 inches dbh, 80 years, and there's another 80 in there--basal area? When the spruce is prevalent, there is lodgepole jackstrawed all over the ground, making for bruised up legs, and excellent fuels for a fire. I think one area we marked for a timber sale, was thrown out because it was "roadless" (we drove in every day on jeep roads) and burned up in the Tripod Fire on the Okanogan. 

The drier sites that were logged, as I stated earlier, seeded back in with lodgepole. On the Deschutes, they have been logging beetle kill or threatened trees and selling it, even recently. You might give somebody on that forest a call, because that is the area your paper is based on. They definitely sell wood for biomass and the slash also.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 22, 2009)

arbadacarba said:


> Bowen now, but looking to buy something up in Bella Coola as well. I also worked in the Hazeltons for a while. As one of the Westar veeps said to me a long time ago - god's country! Didn't appreciate it at the time, but I always seem to go back there when I get the chance. Same for North of Terrace and up west of the Dease lake area. Been most places in the world and I wouldn't trade this province for anything. I think there is more potential here in BC than anywhere else and there are still a lot of good people and room to be free!



How long ago were you up north there? I know a whole bunch of older guys that logged up in that area years ago, back in the 50s - 70s. I've only been through there once on the way to Alaska, but it is a nice area. Too much rain for me to live there though. Same story with Bella Coola.


The reason for Lodgepoles being all over the ground in spruce-dominated areas (at least around here) is that the ground is too wet in those areas and the root systems of the pines rot out quickly. They can't tolerate standing water for long periods of time like Spruces can. 

8" is a fairly small Lodgepole. I've cut many around 2' for firewood and have seen them up to 3' come into town on trucks, though not often. They need just the right growing conditions to get to that size though.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 22, 2009)

I was up there at the tail end,- early eighties. There was still some really nice wood coming through, but it was starting to be uneconomic because of distance. Thats when Stewart was growing as a raw log storage area. I still hate the idea of shipping raw logs overseas. Why can't we do the same as the Japanese and throw boom chain over the fir bundles to sink them when the market slows? 

We put in the second link mill in the province ( Carnaby ). It was interesting, but a real mistake given the timing. In my opinion a bunch of small mobile specialty mills would be far better for the area. There's still some really good timber up there - use it for sash stock etc, not spaghetti ! It really distresses me to see what has happened in the Hazeltons. Beautiful area, beautiful people, but no sense of direction. On a more positive note there are some new initiatives happening that go around Indian Affairs and will bring back some pride.

Just so I'm not hijacking this thread, lodgepole /spruce stands are good. We pulled a lot of spruce clears at the Hazelton mill. Premium stuff and high$.
If you remove the lodgepole, space the spruce and interplant with whatever clear producing hardwood that grows in your area you may be able to eliminate the beetle over a generation and actually increase your total return. Also, don't ignore the possibility of using beetle killed wood as an architectural highlight. The Europeans have been doing this for a while and it looks pretty nice exposed and with a clear finish. Much more interesting for post and beam than some of the other woods. It's all a question of making your markets rather than letting your markets dictate the terms to you!


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## sbhooper (Mar 28, 2009)

I hunt in Colorado and Wyoming and it is amazing what the beetles have done in just two years all through the mountains. If some of those areas ever light off, there will be some interesting fires. If they wanted to log those areas it would not matter because there just are not enough logging outfits anymore to get the wood before it rots anyway. 

I was told that the beetles don't fly-they glide. If trees are cut back a fair distance around the beetle kill, it will slow the advance. 

I think the best scenario is for state and federal agencies to start a controlled burn program in some of these area to hopefully burn it without total destruction.


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## arbadacarba (Mar 28, 2009)

sbhooper said:


> I hunt in Colorado and Wyoming and it is amazing what the beetles have done in just two years all through the mountains. If some of those areas ever light off, there will be some interesting fires. If they wanted to log those areas it would not matter because there just are not enough logging outfits anymore to get the wood before it rots anyway.
> 
> I was told that the beetles don't fly-they glide. If trees are cut back a fair distance around the beetle kill, it will slow the advance.
> 
> I think the best scenario is for state and federal agencies to start a controlled burn program in some of these area to hopefully burn it without total destruction.



Whats really frustrating is as soon as someone mentions something like that there's a good chance that you'll end up playing "count the idiots" as the proposition gets shot down. Be prepared to shake your head!


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## sbhooper (Mar 29, 2009)

A lightning strike in the right place is going to be an armageddon in some places. Break out the marsh mellows and watch the tree huggers scream.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 30, 2009)

The beetles _can_ fly, but I'm not sure how far or how well. But I have been out cutting firewood a couple times when they've swarmed, and can sound almost like a cicada hatch. A few years ago before the problem really exploded around here, maybe 8 years or so, the trees beside all the major logging roadways leading west started dying. The beetles were jumping off the logging trucks on their way to town. I'm pretty sure this is what caused the explosion of the last few years, because it took decades for them to cross the few miles of the Coast Mountains. But once they were into the Lodgepole stands this side of the mountains where there is active logging, it only took a handful of years for them to make the ~150 mile journey east to the Fraser River.


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## barrelroll (Mar 31, 2009)

I live in Grand county CO and I'm just waiting for it to go up in flames along with the western part of Rocky Mountain National Park. Everything is brown up here. 

A pellet mill has opened up here to try and use up some of the beetle kill otherwise it's not moving much. There's always adds in the paper for free beetle kill.

An old timer told me the forest service used to sell the trees in an area with beetle kill with the understanding all the trees were fair game in the area that was sold but the logger had to take care of the beetle kill. After Clinton was in office and closed off the lands to logging is when the epidemic started.


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## windthrown (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow, Estes Park? Dead? I used to have a GF that lived in Ward. 

Amusing all that fuel that is just gonna go up in flames. Maybe build a giant mobile electric generator and tap it into the grid, and cut and burn the logs as you go, in a huge swath across the west. Or distill it into methnol. 

Naw... it will just all go up in smoke, and then there will be all kinds of insane accusations and political fallout. No one will listen until AFTER the fact. Just like in San Diego. *sigh* Stupid politics; that is the problem with a democracy you see, because half the people are below average at everything.


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## smokechase II (Mar 31, 2009)

*History shows*

*"I live in Grand county CO and I'm just waiting for it to go up in flames along with the western part of Rocky Mountain National Park. Everything is brown up here."*


Upon further review:

A year ago a paper came out where they looked back on beetle epidemics and large fire occurances throughout the West. It showed only a very slight increase in large fire acres in the beetle hit areas initially.

Where things get bad is when the trees fall over and create 'ladder fuels'.
That may be 8 - 15 years down the road and that is when the large fire 'up in flames/smoke' events happen.

=============

If you like to enjoy the fourth of July in winter I would suggest finding a day where there is a couple feet of snow on the ground but nothing in the trees, no wind at all, a somewhat scattered stand of live and dead LP and a dry day.
With a lighter get rid of those brown needles one tree at a time.

Caution; we have had wildfire events in a few feet of snow because the live trees are much dryer in the winter.

Other than that, man is it fun to walk up to a tree, spend a few seconds of your life that you don't want back, and make a 10 second one tree candle.

LP needles come off in about three years anyway, so this isn't an important fire risk treatment. That would be logging the dead and cleaning up the slash.

But it sure is fun. Yep yep.


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## Brmorgan (Mar 31, 2009)

Man, if you got caught doing something like that up here you'd be spending some time in the crowbar hotel. I have done it though (once by accident, that was exciting!) and it is neat.


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## windthrown (Mar 31, 2009)

smokechase II said:


> =============
> 
> Caution; we have had wildfire events in a few feet of snow because the live trees are much dryer in the winter.



Yah, the trees are dormant then. I noticed that when living amung a huge stand of trees (several thousand acres of them) in the Tyee Geological Zone. When the conifers go dormant in December, the flooding begins. Two years ago we had 2 feet of rain in November. Hardly any flooding. Ground was already saturated from heavy rains in October, but little flooding. Come December, we had one foot of rain. Half the rain of November. Torrents of water came off the hillsides. Lots of flooding. December, January and early February were always the worst. By early March the trees are active again, and drawing up water, and the floods are held in check. 

Good idea about burning standing snags in the snow. Like now. The live trees are going to be drawing up water and the dead snags will not. But of course, um, that would make just WAY too much sence. So it will never be done. Tree huggers would chain themselves to the dead snags. Or the Pine Bark Beetle Supporters would protest. Or the global warming advocates would say that you are releasing too much entropy and CO2 into the atmosphere.


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## spencerhenry (Mar 31, 2009)

the pellet mill is in kremling, it is my understanding that YOU PAY to leave logs there, but right now they are only taking large logs. my guess is that if you pay to leave good saw timber, they can let it sit and sell it later when and if there is a market. intermountain resources takes in alot of lodgepole, and last i heard it was going for about $235/mbf. but currently they arent taking wood from independents, only their own crews. funny part is, i have had 2 logging contractors trying to sell me wood (i own a woodmizer), but the prices they want havent really dropped. everyone i talk to says there is no wood moving. one of the guys that called me got paid to clearcut 200+ acres (my buddy missed the bid) and still isnt dropping his price for the timber. but he called me trying to sell some. supply and demand. right now the only money around here is in private property (clean up jobs), or forest service make work projects. i have seen it in several papers now that the forest service is putting big money into beetle kill cleanup along forest service roads. now that is some work that i want. i keep checking the government sites to see when it is put out for bid, but none yet.


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## barrelroll (Mar 31, 2009)

windthrown said:


> Wow, Estes Park? Dead? I used to have a GF that lived in Ward.



I'm on the other side of the divide from Estes, Estes hasn't gotten hit near as bad.

I don't think I'll try lighting up a dead lodge pole, they are real close together and the last thing I need to do is start my neighborhood up in flames.

This has been a really dry winter, very little snow, I don't know the last time I've had enough snow to plow and I live at 9,300'. I'm sure that won't help the fire situation this year.

As far as the pellet plant goes a log truck driver was telling me they weren't paying much at all for logs when they just opened this summer, I want to say $15 a ton they pick up, $20 a ton you deliver but I could be wrong on that. 

Spencerhenry not sure where you are located but if you land a government contract and need some summer help let me know, I could use a summer job.


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