# Tipped bands versus set bands



## Railomatic (Feb 25, 2007)

Here is some interesting news

Just recently I have read that here in the UK a lot of the Miser operators have changed over to tipped bands, I found a company locally who manufacture their own tipped, they also have an outlet in New Hamshire USA, and 85% of their UK stock goes to the USA.

After speaking to a few Miser users, I tried one and the results are very promising, I found that the tipped bands lasted many times longer than a conventional band before it needed sharpening.

The down time and sharpening of a tipped band is also cheaper to have done at about half the cost of the old 2" bands I was using, the tipped bands are a little more expensive, but you save lots in the long run, as they can last up to forty times longer than any traditional set band.

Tipped bands have a negative rake tooth which is stronger and more rigid than a positive rake, they handled dirt in the timber and need no setting, now I only need three bands for a days hard work, instead of a dozen.

Are there any other band mill users using tipped bands ?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Feb 25, 2007)

I've looked into them as well but haven't dropped the $$ to get a few. The data looks good but I can't find anyone in my area that uses them so I can check them out before investing.


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## FJH (Feb 25, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> Here is some interesting news
> 
> Just recently I have read that here in the UK a lot of the Miser operators have changed over to tipped bands, I found a company locally who manufacture their own tipped, they also have an outlet in New Hamshire USA, and 85% of their UK stock goes to the USA.
> 
> ...





aggiewoodbutchr said:


> I've looked into them as well but haven't dropped the $$ to get a few. The data looks good but I can't find anyone in my area that uses them so I can check them out before investing.



You say they are tiped????
with what????
Carbide?
Stelite???
Wouldn't mind trying one if not too pricey.


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## infomet (Feb 26, 2007)

I've used a hired Woodmizer for about 40K BF of pine and hardwood.
Never used anything like a dozen blades. When I was organized and had the logs ready, we cut about 1500 BF/day on maybe four blades.

Nails and fence wire tend to cause more blade changes!

Amazingly, we cut several bullets! I kept a couple of pieces of wood with the sawn bullets embedded. Looks like .30 calibre. Since there were a couple together in some pieces, I'd say that was target practice.

I'd like to have a link to the tipped blade source.


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## Husky137 (Feb 26, 2007)

The debarker is a great option to have on my woodmizer. If the log isn't filled with metal, I can cut all day on one or two blades.


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## Railomatic (Feb 26, 2007)

infomet said:


> I've used a hired Woodmizer for about 40K BF of pine and hardwood.
> Never used anything like a dozen blades. When I was organized and had the logs ready, we cut about 1500 BF/day on maybe four blades.
> 
> Nails and fence wire tend to cause more blade changes!
> ...



Please could you tell me what width of lumber you were cutting the most ?

On a good day you can do well using two or three blades all day, if you are cutting full width like my 25 inches you would be doing very well to get by with that amount.

What I mean't by a dozen blade is, six to use and six at the sharpeners.

Since I made my home made mill, I have been cutting mainly wide boards and have found that I needed more set to get the best out of the blade, and the more set you have on a DIY blade the less cutting it seems to do.

Over here in the UK we call a run of the mill blade with set teeth a DIY and a tipped blade a PRO, and the diference between the two is not as much as you think, we pay 45 pounds for the better quality set blades and 75 for a tipped, if you take the companies 40 times longer lasting quote, that is real cheap for the tipped.

Since moving over to the Stellite tipped blades there has been a marked improvement, every tooth cuts on both sides and at the top, there is no set as the tips are slightly wider than the blade itself and the teeth are wider apart, one every 30.00mm, they stay sharper longer even when working with soiled timber, they can stand a certain amount of wire without many problems.

Bennetts do have an outlet in New Hampshire USA, but I don't have those contact details, if you contacted them they would give you this information I'm sure, their web-site is http://www.bennett-saws.co.uk/bandsaw.html 

The blades I bought are the smallest bands they make at 65.00mm or 2-1/2" wide, and they keep the 13' 2" miser blades on the shelf.

I think tipped is the way to go, you get a smaller curf and a more agressive faster cut, the finish isn't bad either, sharpening is a lot cheaper than set bands too.

I have been to their factory for a guided tour, before they sharpen a blade, it is put through a special machine which takes all the dings and high spots out of the blade, this machine cost in excess of £180,0000 Sterling, using lasers to map out the surface before smoothing things out, in other words the blade is put back to its original shape, every time, which means a longer life.

They tell me that most of the mills in the USA, are still using swadged or set bands and tipped blades haven't caught on like here in the UK, remember that old steam powered mill I posted, some of the blades I saw on the tour day dwarfed their blade by three times, nice old mill though.


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## Railomatic (Feb 28, 2007)

*Super HPG bandsaw blades*

Here is the latest bandsaw mill blade technology from the UK's biggest dealer and in house manufacturer.
http://www.ernestbennett.co.uk/superhpg.htm


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## FJH (Feb 28, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> Here is the latest bandsaw mill blade technology from the UK's biggest dealer and in house manufacturer.
> http://www.ernestbennett.co.uk/superhpg.htm



Well i would like to find somone here that I could buy from trouble is I'd have to have it sharpened at some point!The guy that does my blades now dosent like to do anything out of the ordanary his machine is set for the most standard blades wood mizer and the like and dosent like to think out of the box.His thought is if stelite ,carbide and the like was that good the big mills in the area would have tried by now and been using it ,yet they are still using bacic bands.Nothing fancy.For my self If I can cut all day with out a change out and were able to sharpen for aprox same cost it would be an aset to me.


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## FJH (Feb 28, 2007)

*Mill pictures as promised*

Here are the mill pictures as promised 
Enjoy


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## Railomatic (Mar 1, 2007)

*Some reasons why I changed to tipped blades*



FJH said:


> His thought is if stelite ,carbide and the like was that good the big mills in the area would have tried by now and been using it ,yet they are still using bacic bands.Nothing fancy.For my self If I can cut all day with out a change out and were able to sharpen for aprox same cost it would be an aset to me.



Technology moves on, today nearly all circular saws are tipped in one way or another, when they never used to be, wheather band blades in the US will follow suit, I think depends upon demand. 

Here in the UK band technology is far in advance than a lot of places in the world, this is a fact I have learned since getting my tipped blades.

After using normal blades I soon learned the drawbacks involved, this is the reason why I looked hard and fast to find something else.

I thought if the circular saw market was way in advance of the normal band blade, there must be something in the band world which was similar.

Stellite tipped blades; are available in the US and catching on all be it rather slowly, the benefits are much greater, with a much higher return between services, some blades lasting up to 40 hours work between services.

Saw doctors sharpening conventional blades today are unlikely to be able to sharpen stellite because the machines are CNC controlled with diamond cutters, and cost the earth, but I have been told by Bennetts of Darlington in the UK, that there are companies in the US who are making these blades, they mentioned Simmons, who also make the CNC machines.

Like any band it is going to need sharpening at some point, if a tipped band is going to last dramatically longer then surely its worth loking into, even if it means shipping costs, if you buy enough to last while the rest are being serviced, the cost would even themselves out.


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## Railomatic (Mar 9, 2007)

Here is a couple of close-ups of my tipped band and the guides, I have fitted a check set of bearings underneath the main bearing guides on the sliding adjustable side of the mill, what a difference this has made, I can now go nearly as fas as I like, within reason, without the blade moving off line.

I have set the check bearings so that it has 1.00mm deflection on the back side, this keeps the blade straight and true in the cutting mouth area, no more drumming of the blade which can cause problems.

I have the guides slightly lower that the bottom of the wheels, this gives the band a rest, because you don't need to have the band so tight, this gives better reliability, no more broken or damaged bands, which means they will last out before throwing them away.


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## FJH (Mar 9, 2007)

What stops the band from moving back?
I will take picts of my origanal guide and show you what I was doing ,very simular I changed because I was having bearing failure every 6-8 huors running time the bearings were to small and also I use water to keep pitch from the blade and wheels
with the cooks rollers I'm able to gease em every couple of hours no problems as yet!
What I don't care for with the bottom roller is it limits your lower cut to what ever the bearing size is!I toyed with the idea but dismisted it for that reason!The cooks bearing I beleive can be fitted with a lower control jaw I may go that route at some point.

http://www.cookssaw.com/shop/

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/messages/viewthumb/7685589643-1173493584-67337/preview/page/1/15/


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## Railomatic (Mar 10, 2007)

FJH said:


> What stops the band from moving back?
> I will take picts of my origanal guide and show you what I was doing ,very simular I changed because I was having bearing failure every 6-8 huors running time the bearings were to small and also I use water to keep pitch from the blade and wheels
> with the cooks rollers I'm able to gease em every couple of hours no problems as yet!
> What I don't care for with the bottom roller is it limits your lower cut to what ever the bearing size is!I toyed with the idea but dismisted it for that reason!The cooks bearing I beleive can be fitted with a lower control jaw I may go that route at some point.
> ...


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## FJH (Mar 10, 2007)

Railomatic;615792]


You need to pack any new bearing with grease said:


> yup I found that too , even tried moly grease in em!the water must be the killer!The bearings start humming after 45 hours of operation I was useing 6203 bearings!
> apears to be a 16 - 18 inch log your cutting there Id do a bout 4 f to 6ft a minute in that in fir!


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## Railomatic (Mar 10, 2007)

FJH said:


> Railomatic;615792]
> 
> yup I found that too , even tried moly grease in em!the water must be the killer!The bearings start humming after 45 hours of operation I was useing 6203 bearings!
> apears to be a 16 - 18 inch log your cutting there Id do a bout 4 f to 6ft a minute in that in fir!



I keep the water to a mimimum, I don't use any detergent because this just dilutes the greese, and I only spray manually when the resin starts to build up and just enough to soften it for the scrapers to remove it.

I also drilled the middle of the shaft so that I can use a gun to flush out the
bearings, take one seal out and replace it with a big flat washer so the grease can flow out through the gap, grease every day and things last a lot longer.

With my tipped bands I can cut up to around twenty feet a minute in an 18 inch logs, depending on type, 24" logs take a litle longer.

The bands are a tooth every 1"-1/4 positive rake, tipped with stellite, which will go for over thirty hours before changing them, they will do 40 hours a piece but that makes more material to be removed to get them back to cutting quality, tipped bands are definately the way to go.


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## FJH (Mar 10, 2007)

Sounds like the blades are the answer alright.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 9, 2007)

Just wanted to throw this in here...

I finally bought a carbide tipped band, a Lenox Trimaster, for my Grizzly 14" bandsaw w/ riser block. I put it through some heavy use last night cutting out bowl blanks from green figured pecan. I would have never imagined resawing at max capacity (12") on that little bandsaw would have ever been so easy, but it was. I had to keep the feed rate down, not because of bogging the motor, but it would cut so fast the sawdust would clog the kerf and gullets. 

I also tried it on some dry wood and the results were equally impressive. The tooth design is a bit too aggressive for really hard stock so the feed rate was critical. However, I was able to repeatedly cut material I couldn't even touch before with carbon steel blades.

In my opinion, they ARE worth the money and I will buy another in the future. I'll probably put one on the bandmill as well.


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## FJH (Apr 9, 2007)

*Having said you'd buy one for your band mill!*

Is there some one that will sharpen it for you once it does get dull!?


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 9, 2007)

FJH said:


> Is there some one that will sharpen it for you once it does get dull!?



_From what I've read_, some manufacturers (ex. Lenox) claim that the band will break from fatigue before the tips go dull provided you don't hit rocks or metal. In the event you do find some foreign material (which you eventually will), the manufacturers can re-tip and sharpen a band if it's not damaged beyond the point of economical repair.


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## Andy Harden (Apr 9, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> Just wanted to throw this in here...
> 
> In my opinion, they ARE worth the money and I will buy another in the future. I'll probably put one on the bandmill as well.



aggie, where do I find prices for bandmill blades? I use 1 1/2, 1 inch pitch blades 19 ft long.:hmm3grin2orange: 

Andy


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 10, 2007)

Andy Harden said:


> aggie, where do I find prices for bandmill blades? I use 1 1/2, 1 inch pitch blades 19 ft long.:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy



Logmaster, right?

I called for some more info and a price list today. They're supposed to get back with me.

BTW- just came in from cutting out another dozen bowl blanks on the bandsaw for the last 3 hours. Still showing no signs of slowing down. Even found some bailing wire the hard way.


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## Railomatic (Apr 10, 2007)

*Tipped blades*

I changed up from a standard 2 " blade, to a 2-1/2" tipped blade, I was told that the wider blade was less prone to cracking around the bottom of the gullets, so far this has been true.

My band mill uses car tyre wheels with the blade position/level that is slightly lower than the bottom of the wheels themselves, so I don't need to have the blade as tight as normal bandsaws.

I got my blades direct from the manufacturer here in the UK, the company is called Bennetts, see here http://www.ernestbennett.co.uk/superhpg.htm.

Most of their products goes to the USA, at the moment there are very few companies in the States making these types of blades, but, Bennetts have said they know of the company Simmonds, who actually make these blades and the machinery to sharpen them, so there must be an outlet in the USA where one could get some.

Now I have been running the tipped blades for a while, they really come into their own when cutting wider boards of up to and over 24".

The long term running costs of the tipped blades is actualy cheaper than a standard blade, and running time between changes has more than trebled, in the UK most if not all of the Woodmiser operataors have changed over to these blades.

Now I have the tipped blades I will never go back to the standard blade.


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## aggiewoodbutchr (Apr 10, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> I changed up from a standard 2 " blade, to a 2-1/2" tipped blade, I was told that the wider blade was less prone to cracking around the bottom of the gullets, so far this has been true.
> 
> My band mill uses car tyre wheels with the blade position/level that is slightly lower than the bottom of the wheels themselves, so I don't need to have the blade as tight as normal bandsaws.
> 
> ...



I spoke with a Simonds distributer yesterday as well. Their prices are not unreasonable.


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## Andy Harden (Apr 10, 2007)

aggiewoodbutchr said:


> I spoke with a Simonds distributer yesterday as well. Their prices are not unreasonable.




I am paying $88.00 plus freight for bi-metal blades and $44.01 plus freight for Timber Wolf blades. The Timber Wolf blades last about 3 hrs cutting time and the bi-metal 4 to 5 hrs. Then time to set and sharpen.

Andy


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## FJH (Apr 10, 2007)

Andy Harden said:


> I am paying $88.00 plus freight for bi-metal blades and $44.01 plus freight for Timber Wolf blades. The Timber Wolf blades last about 3 hrs cutting time and the bi-metal 4 to 5 hrs. Then time to set and sharpen.
> 
> Andy



Are the carbide blades more pricey to sharpen?


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## Andy Harden (Apr 10, 2007)

FJH said:


> Are the carbide blades more pricey to sharpen?



The bi-metal blades sharpen just like a standard blade. The bi-metal blades are not tipped. They look just like a standard blade. I take an engraver and label them to tell them apart after they are used for a while.

Andy


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## FJH (Apr 10, 2007)

Could you explain the concept of the bi metal blade and the diffrence between it and coventional carbon steel blades.


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## Railomatic (Apr 11, 2007)

The difference betwen them is.

A Bi-metal blade is heat treated/hardened at the front of the blade where the teeth are, leaving the back slightly softer which acts as a shock absorber some companies won't sharpen these because its harder on their sharpening stones/gear.

The standard carbon steel blade has a uniform crystaline structure throughout the metal, a mixture of metals to produce a harder ductile metaline structure, which is easier to sharpen and set, if you want relative cheapness, these are the blades to go for, BUT, will need the most work to keep them serviced, the extra costs of servicing is lost, so you might as well buy a tipped version.

Neither of the above can compete with a stellite tipped band, which does not reley on having any set to clear the waste, they cut on all three sides and give a paralel clearence, and last four times longer in the wood than the others, they do cost about 30% more than the others, but when you add everything up, they are much cheaper in the long run.


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## Andy Harden (Apr 11, 2007)

Railomatic said:


> The difference betwen them is.
> 
> A Bi-metal blade is heat treated/hardened at the front of the blade where the teeth are, leaving the back slightly softer which acts as a shock absorber some companies won't sharpen these because its harder on their sharpening stones/gear.
> 
> ...



They incorporate 10% matrix cobalt cutting edge for resistance to tooth chipping and neutral rake tooth design for additional tooth strength. 

A carbide blade for my mill from Lenox is $319.19. Other brands are slightly cheaper. I can use the cheaper blades for a long time before I make up the difference.


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## FJH (Apr 11, 2007)

My problem would be to venture from the norm! the guy that sharpens my saws is a real fuss pot! Does not like new concepts!I bought several blades from Cooks saws He didn't like them he said the teeth were uneven and didn't sound right going through the grinder!He said the same of the Simons product (Cooks) blade diffrent gulet shape the wood miser he claims is nice and even from start to finish He does not sell blsdes so he has no axe to grind in that respect.no reason to favor one over another other than working with it!
So buying tiped blades is likly out of the question unles I get or make the rigging to sharpen my own.


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## Andy Harden (Apr 11, 2007)

FJH said:


> My problem would be to venture from the norm! the guy that sharpens my saws is a real fuss pot! Does not like new concepts!I bought several blades from Cooks saws He didn't like them he said the teeth were uneven and didn't sound right going through the grinder!He said the same of the Simons product (Cooks) blade diffrent gulet shape the wood miser he claims is nice and even from start to finish He does not sell blsdes so he has no axe to grind in that respect.no reason to favor one over another other than working with it!
> So buying tiped blades is likly out of the question unles I get or make the rigging to sharpen my own.



Timber Wolf blades have a deeper gullet than most brands. I bought a different cam to go in my grinder.


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