# Winches - Public apology - they're good!



## BobL (Sep 14, 2010)

OK - unreserved public apology about using winches on CS mills.

After much chewing of mill and saw weight, raker theory and PSI, Mtngun helped me see the light.
I now agree that winches are very worthwhile

Sorry if I offended anyone, especially billstuewe and SPM.


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## Timberframed (Sep 14, 2010)

I've been seriously contemplating using a screw type of drive that would pull the mill across the log in a slow and steady but consistent cut. The speed would be monitored via VFD and cabled remote control switching. This means lugging more equipment into the woods yet I have three young sons that do whatever I tell them. So I'm going to give it a go.


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## BobL (Sep 14, 2010)

I've changed my mind about winches but I still think it's a good idea to keep both hands on the mill as much as possible. Totally remote means losing the feel of the mill which I would prefer to retain at this stage.

Two motorcycle throttles might be the go. One for the CS throttle and one for a Winch speed control. The other would be a single lever or trigger, and twist control?


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## Timberframed (Sep 14, 2010)

True BobL. I wasn't thinking to walk away from it but have a dial type reostat mounted near a push handle for the VFD and the motor drive at the end of the log. I would still have the feel of the mill. I'm thinking like the longitudinal feed on my engine lathe. The finish is more consistent. And I wont have to push as much if any. I get lazy sometimes.


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## BobL (Sep 14, 2010)

Timberframed said:


> True BobL. I wasn't thinking to walk away from it but have a dial type reostat mounted near a push handle for the VFD and the motor drive at the end of the log. I would still have the feel of the mill. I'm thinking like the longitudinal feed on my engine lathe. The finish is more consistent. And I wont have to push as much if any. I get lazy sometimes.



Someone on this site has used a power drill and a gear box to drive a winch. He's also used the variable speed control of the drill to control the mill speed. It was on a carriage type mill and he did have access to AC power. Not going to work all that well in the bush. 

On thinking about it I'm now draw to increasing the slope and the weight. I don't any extra push for smaller stuff (the weight of the mill is enough) but it will help cutting wider logs. I have access to many 10 lb lead ingots. and am thinking just put the mill on rails and add lead weights to suit the width of the cut as they is needed going down the log. This leaves both hands free to drive the mill.

One place this is not going to work is on BIG logs that cannot be lifted to create a slop so will have to think about a winch for those.


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## Brmorgan (Sep 15, 2010)

Timberframed said:


> I've been seriously contemplating using a screw type of drive that would pull the mill across the log in a slow and steady but consistent cut. The speed would be monitored via VFD and cabled remote control switching. This means lugging more equipment into the woods yet I have three young sons that do whatever I tell them. So I'm going to give it a go.



Would something like this cut the mustard for you?







I just picked that up at the scrapyard yesterday. Not sure if it works, but the guy threw it in with three big 240V electric motors I bought off of him. It's either a power window motor or windshield wiper motor from a car; I have a couple others of each and they're quite similar in design. Apparently in this case, a 1965 Ford going by the FoMoCo 5-25-65 going by the lettering on it. 

I don't know what kind of power these little motors produce but with that worm gear reduction, they have torque to no end for such a small unit - I'd say it weighs 3, maybe 4 pounds. I think one of these would pull a mill down a log without much trouble; how much speed you'll get out of it would be another matter, but you could build whatever size spool you want to change that. Being 12V saves you having to buy/build a VFD; just a big rheostat that can handle 10 to 20-odd amps (not sure what it draws) would do the trick. 

Or, you could build a series circuit with about 15 big diodes; each diode will drop the voltage by 0.7V across it, so you could tap the circuit between every diode and have control from 0-12V in 0.7V increments. This would be a bit laborious as well though, and diodes that can handle that kind of current sustained aren't going to be very small either.


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## Timberframed (Sep 15, 2010)

Maybe. I was thinking more on the lines of this low geared small 220v motor I have spider coupled up to a 10' or so length of ¾" all-thread , a pillow block or two to act like steady rests, then an accomadating nut welded to a plate that would bolt to the sled part of the mill frame. I'm going to try it and if it succeeds, I'll try to post a video. Going to be a while for a job came up today that's to keep me from the shop for a few weeks.


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## Brmorgan (Sep 15, 2010)

Timberframed said:


> Maybe. I was thinking more on the lines of this low geared small 220v motor I have spider coupled up to a 10' or so length of ¾" all-thread , a pillow block or two to act like steady rests, then an accomadating nut welded to a plate that would bolt to the sled part of the mill frame. I'm going to try it and if it succeeds, I'll try to post a video. Going to be a while for a job came up today that's to keep me from the shop for a few weeks.



OK, I got ya now. If you just use regular threaded rod, keep plenty of anti-seize on it and/or use brass nuts and pilots, or it'll gall up before too long, because it's going to have to spin pretty quick to pull the mill at a decent speed and will have decent pressure against the threads the whole time. Acme thread would do a lot better, but would probably be pretty spendy at that length.


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## Timberframed (Sep 15, 2010)

Just a prototype for now. I could turn a length of acme myself 4tpi is as big as I can cut but going to try a $15 all-thread for now. Thought about teeing off the aux oiler to lube the rod. Some garage door openers are screws and they are pulling up or letting down more psi than I need. My one mill weighs 82 lbs. Just might be on to something here. But you know...the best laid plans..If I fail I can always resort back to these! LOL



[/URL][/IMG] Tried years ago to build a better mousetrap with heartbreaking miserable failure as a result with the mice winning out in the end. I'll focus energy on this instead as I won't quit...(drinking beer anyway.)


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## Old Hilly (Sep 15, 2010)

To Bob L and others from down here in OZ, there was an article in "Silicon Chip" magazine (August edition) that was all about a high power electronic speed control that could be fitted with an electronic version of a motorcycle hand throtle. The design of the circuit would enable it to handle 30 Amps at 24V. The kit of parts was available from Oatley Electronics in Sydney. The basic controler was available as a kit of parts for $24.00 + post, the deluxe kit with reversing function was $40.00 + post and pack.
Their web site is http://www.oatleyelectronics.com 
That sort of current capacity should handle most small DC electric winches with a line pull of up near the (genuine) 500Lbs area.
I have no conection with Oatley Electronics or Silicon Chip mag. Oatley are OK to deal with and may just ship overseas if you ask them nicely. Check out the rest of their goodies that they have for sale. They were the closest thing to one of the old "Disposal Stores" that have long since disapeared, that I have come across in a loooooonng time.
Dennis.


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## BobL (Sep 15, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> To Bob L and others from down here in OZ, there was an article in "Silicon Chip" magazine (August edition) that was all about a high power electronic speed control that could be fitted with an electronic version of a motorcycle hand throtle. The design of the circuit would enable it to handle 30 Amps at 24V. The kit of parts was available from Oatley Electronics in Sydney. The basic controler was available as a kit of parts for $24.00 + post, the deluxe kit with reversing function was $40.00 + post and pack.
> Their web site is http://www.oatleyelectronics.com
> That sort of current capacity should handle most small DC electric winches with a line pull of up near the (genuine) 500Lbs area.
> I have no conection with Oatley Electronics or Silicon Chip mag. Oatley are OK to deal with and may just ship overseas if you ask them nicely. Check out the rest of their goodies that they have for sale. They were the closest thing to one of the old "Disposal Stores" that have long since disapeared, that I have come across in a loooooonng time.
> Dennis.



Thanks Dennis. Looks like pretty interesting stuff (I like the ex-military gamma ray detectors!) but If I go for a winch it will probably not be electrically powered. 

If it is going to be 12V or 24V battery powered it might be easier to generate forward PSI by just putting the same weight, directly onto the mill on a sloped log . No motor, no switches no fussing about getting the speed right and best of all, no worrying about flat battery.


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## Old Hilly (Sep 15, 2010)

Well bob, I guess it depends on your aplication and needs. I am building a bandmill at the moment and might go for a winch to move the mill-head instead of pushing it. I have worked out a way to fit an electric motor to the winch that will raise and lower the band wheels and motor. This is more for ease of operation than anything else, the winch will be at the top of the millhead and I am a bit on the short side, so rather than run chains and gears I will go electric.
We all needed a Gamma Ray detector back when I was a kid and Buck Rogers was fighting comic-book ailiens. Aaah, the good old days when things were a lot more simple and you didn't need a Police permit for that Roy Roger's cap gun and leather holster like you will soon.


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## BobL (Sep 15, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> This is more for ease of operation than anything else, the winch will be at the top of the millhead and I am a bit on the short side, so rather than run chains and gears I will go electric.


Well if you have it and can use it it sure beats breathing 2 stroke fumes all day. A bit quieter too i'd imagine.



> We all needed a Gamma Ray detector back when I was a kid and Buck Rogers was fighting comic-book ailiens. Aaah, the good old days when things were a lot more simple and you didn't need a Police permit for that Roy Roger's cap gun and leather holster like you will soon.



I'd love to add the geiger counter to the mill and tell people it was for picking up depleted Uranium slugs in Logs.


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## SPM in King (Sep 18, 2010)

*Winch*

I think that milling downhill offers a great opportunity to reduce the amount of energy used to push/pull the mill. When you get a mill on too great of an angle though, things get crazy and unmanageable. This is the case with the large hardwoods. I find that the winch allows for a remarkably controlled cut and good feedback for maintaining RPM. I would worry that any automation would somehow interfere with that feedback. Using a winch takes almost no energy, even when milling at no angle. So, I'm not sure how a power feed would buy you that much on a CSM. Not that you should not try it....

The winch also offers a degree of safety, in that the bar can't bounce back. It holds the bar firmly against the cut. I always feel nervous at the start of a cut. 

Steve.


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## Hddnis (Sep 18, 2010)

My brother runs heavy equipment for a living. He can sit in the very comfortable seat in a sixty ton excavator and tell you exactly what the soil conditions are. One time while digging for a new gas main he stopped and called some guys with hand shovels over to uncover what he'd just hit. A couple of hours later and a few cubic yards of soil, all moved by hand, they found a two inch black poly water pipe left over from the farm that used to be on the land. It was stretched about a foot, but not broken. The cutting edge on that bucket alone weighed more than two hundred feet of that poly line.


That is the kind of feedback every machine gives to the operator. A hand winch on a CSM, with any decent setup, gives the operator better control of the milling process and results. Like anything, if abused it will burn up powerheads or give a poor finish, but you can't blame that on the winch.



Mr. HE


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## Hddnis (Sep 18, 2010)

Another thing....


BobL,


Build the winch already! 

I like seeing the stuff you build and frankly the idea of watching a video of a guy stack up chunks of lead does not sound exciting to me, CSM underneath or not.

Then you can scrap the log lift too.:greenchainsaw:

I'd put a track next to the log that you can put your operators chair on. Then hitch it to the mill and the winch will pull you and the mill along in total comfort.LOL




Mr. HE


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## Brmorgan (Sep 18, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> My brother runs heavy equipment for a living. He can sit in the very comfortable seat in a sixty ton excavator and tell you exactly what the soil conditions are. One time while digging for a new gas main he stopped and called some guys with hand shovels over to uncover what he'd just hit. A couple of hours later and a few cubic yards of soil, all moved by hand, they found a two inch black poly water pipe left over from the farm that used to be on the land. It was stretched about a foot, but not broken. The cutting edge on that bucket alone weighed more than two hundred feet of that poly line.
> 
> 
> That is the kind of feedback every machine gives to the operator. A hand winch on a CSM, with any decent setup, gives the operator better control of the milling process and results. Like anything, if abused it will burn up powerheads or give a poor finish, but you can't blame that on the winch.
> ...




Yeah it's amazing how you can get used to how a machine is supposed to "feel", and then know right away when something is even slightly wrong. Sitting in my operator's booth at the sawmill, I can tell you if the chipping head knives or edger saws are dull, or there's a feedroll or conveyor belt/chain acting funky just because it makes the mill sound different or my booth shake/vibrate differently when it's feeding. It takes a while to get that familiar with things, and many operators don't even try to take the time, but that's what separates the good from the bad IMO.


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## BobL (Sep 18, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> Build the winch already!


Nah - I know I said they are good and I still stand by that, but I'm not convinced I need a winch at this stage.
Plus my crushed fingers are still healing.

So far I figure winches are for; 
- CS millers with lightweight mills that do not want to put logs on slopes
- any CS miller who cannot put the log on a slope (ie log too big)
Like I said, if I can place a log on a 15 degree slope, using the BIL mill I get a 20lb forward force without doing anything so I don't need a winch for that situation. There is a benefit of not using a winch and that is both hands can remain on the mill.



> I like seeing the stuff you build and frankly the idea of watching a video of a guy stack up chunks of lead does not sound exciting to me, CSM underneath or not.


Thanks for the compliments but I guess I'm not milling to make videos 

I'm pretty serious about adding weights. Since I nearly always mill with log rails I just need to place the lead weights along the log alongside the the rails which the mill will slides over the top of (that's also where I place my wedges). As I mill past each weight I'll pick it up and place it on the mill. The further down the log I go the blunter the chain gets so the more weight I add. I know this is not for everyone, especially for someone ripping a narrow board off a cant in 2 minutes, but for a 20 minute cut on a big Aussie hardwood log I think it's worth a try.

My next CS mill design is coming along in my head and because I am making it out of bits and pieces I alread have on hand it incorporates a lot more steel than the BIL mill so it will also be fairly heavy and I have no winch planned for it.



> Then you can scrap the log lift too.:greenchainsaw:


The primary use of Log lifter is to lift logs off ground so that miller can stand upright while milling. The advantage afforded from slope generation is secondary. The Malloff book on CS milling shows that it is relatively easy to set up a winch on a log laying flat on the ground so that one stands upright at one end of a log away from the dust and fumes and smokes a pipe while turning the winch handle. This should work well on cants but it would not work on the sorts of logs I mill since there are too many lumps and dips in the side of the log to steer around and to do that one has to have both hands on the mill. 

I also admit that Log lifters are also not for everyone. If an operator has to carry a mill into the bush they probably don't need an additional load to carry over some distance.



> I'd put a track next to the log that you can put your operators chair on. Then hitch it to the mill and the winch will pull you and the mill along in total comfort.LOL


You obviously don't know how much I weigh.


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## glennschumann (Sep 18, 2010)

I've been watching this winch idea, and I'm wondering if there would be a benefit to adding a long spring to the rope assembly... like a screen door spring that has lots of stretch... and also a ratchet like a boat winch has. Just a thought to see what others think of it... my thought is that you could get a "relatively" constant pressure with the spring, and winding the winch every 4 or 5 inches. This would allow you to keep your hands on the mill, and if you want to pull the mill back if the saw bogs, you can just pull against the spring a bit.

Maybe too complicated, but just some thoughts I thought I'd throw out there for others to ponder / disprove.


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## Brmorgan (Sep 19, 2010)

BobL said:


> The primary use of Log lifter is to lift logs off ground so that miller can stand upright while milling. The advantage afforded from slope generation is secondary. The Malloff book on CS milling shows that it is relatively easy to set up a winch on a log laying flat on the ground so that *one stands upright at one end of a log away from the dust and fumes and smokes a pipe* while turning the winch handle. This should work well on cants but it would not work on the sorts of logs I mill since there are too many lumps and dips in the side of the log to steer around and to do that one has to have both hands on the mill.




LOL, just, LOL... Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that. I guess pure unfiltered tobacco smoke is so much healthier to surround yourself with!


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## Hddnis (Sep 19, 2010)

Brmorgan said:


> Yeah it's amazing how you can get used to how a machine is supposed to "feel", and then know right away when something is even slightly wrong. Sitting in my operator's booth at the sawmill, I can tell you if the chipping head knives or edger saws are dull, or there's a feedroll or conveyor belt/chain acting funky just because it makes the mill sound different or my booth shake/vibrate differently when it's feeding. It takes a while to get that familiar with things, and many operators don't even try to take the time, but that's what separates the good from the bad IMO.






A real good example too. You ever go home and have dreams where something is wrong on the machine and it wakes you up?

When I was climbing everyday I would do that. I'd be dreaming that the wind had come up suddenly after I've finished a face cut. When I'd wake up I'd discover that the wind had started blowing outside and I could hear it and it became part of my dreams.

One time after working all night at my other job I was sleeping late and dreamt that my chainsaw had something wrong with it. When I woke up I realized that I could hear my wife running the coffee grinder.



Mr. HE


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## BobL (Sep 19, 2010)

glennschumann said:


> I've been watching this winch idea, and I'm wondering if there would be a benefit to adding a long spring to the rope assembly... like a screen door spring that has lots of stretch... and also a ratchet like a boat winch has. Just a thought to see what others think of it... my thought is that you could get a "relatively" constant pressure with the spring, and winding the winch every 4 or 5 inches. This would allow you to keep your hands on the mill, and if you want to pull the mill back if the saw bogs, you can just pull against the spring a bit.
> 
> Maybe too complicated, but just some thoughts I thought I'd throw out there for others to ponder / disprove.



Page 48 of Malloff's book shows him using something that looks like a small boat winch (without a ratchet) that pulls on the outboard bar clamp and saw (as I have suggested in the past) and not on the mill rails. There is a picture of him standing up at the other end of the log (not smoking a pipe) winching the saw through. He even builds the remote throttle into the winch action ie the throttle goes to WOT before the winch full engages. 

I'd though about using springs to create a constant tension but what is really needed is variable tension as the log width changes, and the chain gets blunt etc.


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## SPM in King (Sep 19, 2010)

The spring idea has some merit. I find that the there is a constant "play" between too much and too little pressure on the winch for me to be able to take my hand off the winch handle. When cutting large hardwoods, the winch line I use stretches and acts like a spring, but not to the extent discussed earlier. It would take nothing much to try it out though. 



BobL said:


> Page 48 of Malloff's book shows him using something that looks like a small boat winch



I would like to the see this picture. Can you post it?


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## BobL (Sep 19, 2010)

SPM in King said:


> I would like to the see this picture. Can you post it?



There are 3 pics of him using the winch. This one is probably the best one because you can see his simple remote throttle setup.






See how he's using weight to hold the mill down - now all he needs to do is lift that log onto a slope and he wouldn't need the winch at all.

His book has a whole chapter on using a winch.
See how he has shortened the outboard line to twist the mill a little so the mill slides along on the trailing end of the inboard skids, so the mill is less likely to snag on the side of the log.


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## Old Hilly (Sep 20, 2010)

Looks to me like the winch rope also controls the throttle on the saw. If I am not mistaken there is a spring conected to the outer end of that piece of flat-bar. The bar pivots near the end of the handle and the inner end holds the throttle trigger in the fast position. Slacken off the cable and the throttle will be released so that the engine will drop back to idle. Tighten up the cable and the throttle will come to to full revs before the saw starts to move.
Very sneaky.


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## BobL (Sep 20, 2010)

Old Hilly said:


> Looks to me like the winch rope also controls the throttle on the saw. If I am not mistaken there is a spring conected to the outer end of that piece of flat-bar. The bar pivots near the end of the handle and the inner end holds the throttle trigger in the fast position. Slacken off the cable and the throttle will be released so that the engine will drop back to idle. Tighten up the cable and the throttle will come to to full revs before the saw starts to move.
> Very sneaky.



The spring is a piece or rubber tubing.


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## DaltonPaull (Sep 24, 2010)

One could take this idea way too far and add a Y-axis feed screw to the guide rail and have a micro-controller monitor the saw RPM and feed the mill along at whatever rate is required to keep the saw running at the desired speed. All you would have to do is sit back and drive a few wedges while the saw does the work.


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## discounthunter (Sep 24, 2010)

you would then have a self feeding bandsaw,lol im not against any of these ideas or improvements but when one sits back looks at the basic design of a Mark3, then looks at all the add ons (and weight) its sometimes funny. we as humans strive to improve things to the point we take a 35-40lb mill and end up with a 70lb monster(bob,lol) 

but ill state again im not against any of this ,im for it,just making an observation.


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## BobL (Sep 24, 2010)

discounthunter said:


> you would then have a self feeding bandsaw,lol im not against any of these ideas or improvements but when one sits back looks at the basic design of a Mark3, then looks at all the add ons (and weight) its sometimes funny. we as humans strive to improve things to the point we take a 35-40lb mill and end up with a 70lb monster(bob,lol)
> 
> but ill state again im not against any of this ,im for it,just making an observation.



Yeah - sometimes we lose track of how far we go in our attempts to do whatever we think it is we are doing. 

This is the last home made plane that James Krenov made.





And yet we are prepared to spend a lot of money on tools like this.





I started CS milling because I wanted to access unusual timbers to make wood working hand tool handles. In practice all I needed was a 50 cc CS and a mini mill but the tool making bug took over and within 12 months I'm messing with 100cc+ saws and 60" bars. For some people it's the journey rather than the final product and unlike most CS millers, CS mill design and making has become for me an end in itself. I have told many folk that I would not care all that much if all the wood I have milled were to disappear I'm having a lot of fun messing with mill design. Various gizmos (like water cooling) come and go over time and it's interesting to see what survives.


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## gunnarfan (Sep 24, 2010)

i'm looking for those mallof shots that are more current where he mounts the saw to a rail and plunge cuts his timber like diamonds. 

for the winch thing. i've been looking at a few on here. I also have a pretty long acme rod that under the right circumstances could be fun on a mill.. i might save it for a bandsaw idea that i have...


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