# Lightning/Tree pics needed



## treeseer (Dec 29, 2006)

Eric or anyone,

I'm in need of pics of lightning damage for a conference in February. I'd really like to see how others assess and mitigate the damage to keep the tree alive where feasible. But any pics of lightning damage would be good. If you want to you can put your ID at the bottom so you retain the copyright and get credit for it.


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## Mr. Firewood (Dec 30, 2006)

a LARGE cottonwood infront of my house was struck not once but twice last summer and it blew half the bark off of it, want me to take sosme 7mp pics?


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## treeseer (Dec 30, 2006)

Absolutely! 3mb is a good size pic, dunno what 7 mp means.


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## l2edneck (Dec 30, 2006)

Ill search thru my photos,but its been quiet lately here.


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## Ekka (Dec 30, 2006)

treeseer said:


> 3mb is a good size pic, dunno what 7 mp means.



mp=megapixels, this is how cameras are rated. 

But it is a jargon word and there is a lot more to cameras than meets the eye.

I found this sites explanations and advice fascinating, many myths exposed.

http://hannemyr.com/photo/pixels.html#qq05


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## Ekka (Dec 31, 2006)

Guy

Oct/Nov2006 edition of Australian Arborage has an excellent write up from Kim D Coder about lightening.

He is a professor of community forestry and arboriculture at School of Forest Resources, University of Georgia, athens, Georgia.

Did you know it's the shockwave (accoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work.

That video of the brushbox we did, the entire top of the tree was dead and no visible single impact point. He writes that of the top 20% of the tree is hit where the smaller branches/twigs leaves etc are you have a condition called flashover, the whole top gets fried and death is near certainty. wen the strike is below that 80% tree ht there's a better chance of survival as the charge stays contained and toward the ground, no flashover.

I found these on Google

http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/understandinglightning.htm

http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/stormdamagedtrees.htm


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## treeseer (Dec 31, 2006)

"Oct/Nov2006 edition of Australian Arborage has an excellent write up from Kim D Coder about lightening."

Kim wrote a long ceu article in Arborist News http://www.isa-arbor.com/publications/arbnews/jun04/feature.aspx
so that may be a reprint. He's on the February program the first day speaking on that same topic of how the damage happens. I'm on the second day to talk about what can be done about it.

"Did you know it's the shockwave (accoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work."

Yeah that possibility may be useful to consider when attempting to reattach bark. Hard to know or prove how much is due to sap boiling and how much is due to sound--which would be easier to repair?

" He writes that of the top 20% of the tree is hit where the smaller branches/twigs leaves etc are you have a condition called flashover, the whole top gets fried and death is near certainty. wen the strike is below that 80% tree ht there's a better chance of survival as the charge stays contained and toward the ground, no flashover."
I found these on Google"

I doubt that it's as cutanddried as that. I'm gonna reread those 10-yr old articles as well as the more recent stuff. Now, any pics or experience on repairing lightning damage?


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## Ekka (Dec 31, 2006)

Here's 3, I left them big incase you want to muck around with them.


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## treeseer (Jan 1, 2007)

Thanks Eric. What did you do with that tree, remove it?


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## Ekka (Jan 1, 2007)

Haven't done a thing, just left a flyer for the people, they weren't home. Must have gone on holidays.

I would say that it's about 6months max this that was hit. When I first saw it I thought the wind just busted the top out. Then a few months later it just started browning off and the whole top area dropped dead.

The bottom portion is OK, if they wanted to keep it I think you could just cut it off above a good whirl of branches. It is in an awkward spot with like service wires to both houses through it. Bucket job so you can reach over wires and cut n' chuck past the wires, no lowering.


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## SteveBullman (Jan 1, 2007)

obviously this one was a fell


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## leweee (Jan 1, 2007)

*red oak lightning stike damage*

tree was hit 3yrs. ago. Large limb removed 2yrs. ago


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## leweee (Jan 1, 2007)

*norway spruce lightning strike*

2 pics a few hours after.


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## ggttp (Jan 1, 2007)

This pin oak had no apparent damage other than the root damage pictured here. The pics. were taken the morning after it happened. I couldn't believe that there was no other damage to the tree.


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## treeseer (Jan 1, 2007)

ggttp said:


> This pin oak had no apparent damage other than the root damage pictured here. The pics. were taken the morning after it happened. I couldn't believe that there was no other damage to the tree.



Me neither. Key word is "apparent"--the bark on the stem may be detached and dead, but not look it. A tap with a rubber hammer can find those areas. Thanks all for posting these. I'll pm you if I want to use them, to get your names for attribution.


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## a_lopa (Jan 6, 2007)

Sorry it took me a while Guy.

This ceadar was hit 3 years ago,a local "tree care"no idea guy inspected the tree with a pen put it in a cavity and said"has to go" they got me for a second opinion.

Im glad its lived or they may have thought i was as bad as him.LOL

Ive pounded him out of buisness.


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## treeseer (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks Jason.

What did you do with the tree? 

When was the pic taken? Chance for a followup?

You'll have to send me your name so i make sure it's spelled right.


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## bytehoven (Jan 6, 2007)

I have a friend who had a huge Oak hit infront of their house this fall. The tree is 40"+ at the base I'm guessing, and there is about a 6" wide strip of missing bark winding down one side.

He has already talked to a local arborist, and they are going to wait until the spring to see how the tree buds out. If there is significant damage to the roots, they may take the tree down. 

I hope the tree was not damaged too badly because it's a beautiful tree.

I'll try to post a pic of the tree and the "zap" strip in the next few days.


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## a_lopa (Jan 6, 2007)

Guy them pics are todays,ill take a pic when theres better light.the tree is in slow decline.


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## tocold4u2 (Jan 7, 2007)

*lightning/tree*

i had lightning hit 1 tree go through it , clip a second tree, and hit a 3 rd tree square, the 3 rd trr is a hickory , it hit it high and if i recall right either cracked it or knocked bark off all the way down the lenth of the tree almost to the trunk. the other 2 trees i removed over summer, the hickory i haven`t touched yet. i have another tree around that got wacked good too, i`ll see if i can get a pic:biggrinbounce2:


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## tocold4u2 (Jan 7, 2007)

*lightning/tree*

here are a few pic, i hope they come out. the hickory has bark blown off from the top of the tree all the wat to the bottom of the tree, the top where it got hit , looks to be dead .


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## tocold4u2 (Jan 7, 2007)

*tree strike*

here is 2 more pictures


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## treeseer (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks tocold; that shagbark sure got shaggier after the strike!

Jason,with that tree's form, restoration looks like a challenge. What is the speceis, and did you tap the bark to see how much is detached?


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## a_lopa (Jan 7, 2007)

treeseer said:


> Thanks tocold; that shagbark sure got shaggier after the strike!
> 
> Jason,with that tree's form, restoration looks like a challenge. What is the speceis, and did you tap the bark to see how much is detached?



The bark hasnt changed a great deal in 3 years,its just becoming detached lately,saying that most trees are stressed here at the moment due to low rainfall.it might hang in there with a decent winter.


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## smokechase II (Jan 8, 2007)

*lightning and bark*

*"Large sections of the bark can be ripped apart by steam explosions from a lightning strike."*

Above is from an earlier post, (by _Ekka_; http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/understandinglightning.htm ) that disagrees with the post by _treeseer_ *"Did you know it's the shockwave (acoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work."*

I've been on a few hundred fires that were started by lightning. Not an expert but I always thought the reason trees were getting blown apart was the moisture inside the wood cells was heated to exploding temps and they just blew apart in mass.

Anybody else want to jump in on this sound versus exploding wood cell controversy? This is really serious.


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## alanarbor (Jan 8, 2007)

smokechase II said:


> *"Large sections of the bark can be ripped apart by steam explosions from a lightning strike."*
> 
> Above is from an earlier post, (by _Ekka_; http://hort.ufl.edu/woody/understandinglightning.htm ) that disagrees with the post by _treeseer_ *"Did you know it's the shockwave (acoustic wave) that is responsible for the bark getting blown off and cracks! Even offers suggestions for remedial work."*
> 
> ...



The researcher is the same: Kim Coder wrote both articles. The one referencing the acoustic shock wave is from 2004, the article in the above link is from 1996. So it would seem the shockwave theory is the most recent.


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## treeseer (Jan 8, 2007)

alanarbor said:


> The researcher is the same: Kim Coder wrote both articles. The one referencing the acoustic shock wave is from 2004, the article in the above link is from 1996. So it would seem the shockwave theory is the most recent.


But practically speaking, what is the difference to the tree? Detached bark is detached bark, right? Consider they are simultaneous, can we know for sure?

Jason, I'd suspect that the bark on your tree got detached by the lightning, but is just now coming off because it is decaying. Drought's bound to be a factor, sure--it sounds like trees are having a tough time without enough water.


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## EngineerDude (Jan 8, 2007)

treeseer said:


> But practically speaking, what is the difference to the tree? Detached bark is detached bark, right? Consider they are simultaneous, can we know for sure?



Yeah, as it relates to the just the question of which of two different explanations for the bark coming off is the real one, it really doesn't matter. Either way, the bark's still off.

But then, as it relates to other problems with the tree, I guess it does, or at least could, make a difference. For example, I'd think the shockwave phenomenon might have a greater impact on splits in the trunk.

Assuming it's real, I'm envisioning this shockwave moving radially away from the path the electricity chooses through the tree, in all directions, and generally perpendicular to to the direction the electricity is flowing.

This is pretty interesting stuff that would seem to have possible implications in terms of much greater inspection required any time even a small crack is detected after lightning.


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## Ekka (Jan 9, 2007)

Well.

It was also said that there is very little difference (if any) if the tree bark or tree is wet.

In theory if the tree is wet then you may have a path of lessor resistence and the electricity travel on the out side. But that is not the case.

The shockwave theory also explains the cracks at different angles.

I'm in the shockwave bucket.

Oh, by the way. I have never ever seen a palm with bark blasted off ... ever. Perhaps the shockwave effect doesn't work as is all cambium! Yet the palm certainly has more water and if rapid expansion from heating were the case these should explode like a pressure cooker.

Shockwave for me.

PS: Ever had lightening strike real close? The noise is something else.


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## treeseer (Jan 9, 2007)

Ekka said:


> PS: Ever had lightening strike real close? The noise is something else.



Once we were fiberglassing a boat in drydock when a storm blew in. We rushed to cover the boat and it got hit as the boat's owner was tying down the last corner of the tarp. Really eerie sound. We had to rush him to the hospital--he was turning colors and his heart was beating like a snare drum. 

He came out of it ok--miraculous, really.

Coder's speaking here http://www.floridaisa.org/pdf/Lightning_brochureColor-final.pdf
should be interesting to hear what he says. I'm still in both the temperature and shockwave camps--both feet firmly planted.

Good point by EngineerDude--if the xylem is cracked even a little, that deserves a close look. Those cracks are a motorway for decay, as Schwarze would say.

Eric, if the current goes down the outside and the palm's water is on the inside, could that be why they don't burst?


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## Ekka (Jan 9, 2007)

Great

I see you've got a session too.

Make sure you give the ole euc oil a plug.

Any chance of same for vegemite? :hmm3grin2orange: 

Hey, what happened to the fibreglass boat?


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## EngineerDude (Jan 9, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Any chance of same for vegemite?



Vegemite!!! Oh, man, haven't thought of that stuff for awhile, although with the way it tastes, I wonder how it could have slipped out of mind.

I know it's like the national food, or close to it. But given the taste, it seems to me that reaching that plateau can only be explained by just plain brilliant marketing. That's the only explanation I can come up with for how the yeast by-product that lines beer fermentation tanks which the beer maker would need to spend money to dispose of can instead be packaged and sold. Make money instead of spend money... brilliant!

Maybe it tastes better once you're good 'n pissed?

Hey, by the way, on the topic of pissed, I got real partial to VB in the pubs in Sydney. Straying a bit off topic here, but what do you guys drink after a long hot day on the job?

OK, back on topic, I'm looking to forward to more discussion on lightning after this Florida seminar.


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## treeseer (Jan 10, 2007)

Ekka said:


> Great
> 
> I see you've got a session too.


I just wanted to share what I do with trees that are hit. That waitandsee stuff seldom works for me--or the tree. It was nice of them to let me in.


> Make sure you give the ole euc oil a plug.
> Any chance of same for vegemite? :hmm3grin2orange:


 I may mention the euc oil. I may not. These are scientists who may not appreciate such a nonstandard product. There are issues with mentioning strategies that are not govt-approved. But then, I think it works. Yeah, what the heck, never hurts to tell the truth eh? Hmm...


> Hey, what happened to the fibreglass boat?


Boat was fine; the charge followed the tarp on the outside. Hey, does that explain what happens and does not happen to palms?


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## a_lopa (Jan 10, 2007)

EngineerDude said:


> Hey, by the way, on the topic of pissed, I got real partial to VB in the pubs in Sydney. Straying a bit off topic here, but what do you guys drink after a long hot day on the job?
> 
> carlton draught on tap,VB in any other form(same brewer)
> 
> Back to lightning pics..


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## booboo (Jan 10, 2007)

OK, back to lightning pics...except that I didn't take any pics.

I looked at a large sugar maple earlier in the summer that had been hit and also got hammered by caterpillars this spring. The only sign of the lightning hit was some bark blown off about 3/4 to the top. The caterpillars had completely defoliated it and it was just popping out a second growth of leaves. The owner was wondering about removal or deadwood/crown reduction. We opted for wait and see...I felt that the tree was stressed enough between the caterpillars and the lightning hit without adding pruning. We'll take another look this year and either prune or remove depending on what it looks like. I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong but...I've always been told (and what I've seen backs it up) that among the variables that come into play for lightning damage is if the bark is wet, i.e. it's raining hard, at the time of the strike. The pics of the oak with no apparent damage except to the ground and roots by the base look like the charge travelled down the exterior of the tree and was dissipated into the ground. One the other hand, I've seen pines that were totally exploded from the inside out, kind of like the pic of the splintered norway, but worse. With the sugar maple I looked at, I thought it was odd that the only visible damage was was to the bark towards the top, my guess was that it some of the charge travelled down the outside of the tree and there's not too much internal damage. That was part of the reason we went with "wait and see", I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees. If it doesn't survive, it's an easy removal, big drop zone, maybe even take it whole and avoid climbing it altogether.

Flame away...


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## treeseer (Jan 10, 2007)

"The owner was wondering about removal or deadwood/crown reduction." 

You were right to hold off on removing live wood. Sell deadwooding combined with a risk assessment.

" I'll be by there in the next week or so and try to get a photo of the lightning damage. I couldn't tell how much internal damage there was and I don't like climbing lightning hit trees."

No need to fear, if you inspect as you ascend. Tap the bark to listen for hollow spots where the bark is detached. Measure the width of these spots, removing the detached bark, and post photos of them. As long as you do not see deep cracks the structure should be way safe to climb, expecially a sugar maple.

It'll be great to see those pics!


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## spreaderman (Jan 28, 2007)

*lightning tree*

I took these pictures in my area back in 2002... I didn't think it was feasable to bring it back to life .....I would have liked to have had a high speed camera with different angles set up to watch it as the lightning hit..... I bet it was a sight to see... and hear
It is Located in Cloverdale Alabama. I hope this helps... ENJOY.


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## treeseer (Jan 28, 2007)

awesome! I definitely want to use pic #1, if you have it in a big enough version to look good in a ppt. pm me your name if you want attribution.

I don't think Humpty Dumpty can put that tree back together again.


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## spreaderman (Jan 28, 2007)

*big enough to look good on ppt*

I found the old floppy disk that they are on ...Will try to put them on a dvd .... and send them to you larger.


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## spreaderman (Jan 28, 2007)

*lightning tree 2*

Since there is interest I wanted to add another picture. The pictures DO NOT do it justice. Several large pieces of the tree weighing over 100 lbs were blown over 200 feet way. Look in picture no. 5 under the tree on the left, you can see a piece there, also pieces in the middle background are also visible....


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## Dixie1 (Feb 1, 2007)

here are some to add to the collection. the first one is a cottonwood, fairly recently. second one, cottonwood several years ago. third one is a hackberry, several years ago.


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## treeseer (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks Dixie! That hackberry has issues. Are all these in your town?


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## booboo (Feb 1, 2007)

TS,

I haven't forgotten about the pics of the sugar maple, I just haven't had a chance to go out to the house where it is. You'll get them eventually.


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## Dixie1 (Feb 2, 2007)

yes, they all are in the same park. we have two parks that almost always get struck by lightning if there is a storm. this past summer, 3 magnificant southern red oaks had to be removed due to severe lightning damage. we have a joke that if there is a storm, don't be in Tilles Park!


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## booboo (Apr 3, 2007)

*Finally...maple pics*

I finally got by the place with the lightning hit sugar maple when I had a camera in the truck. This is my first attempt at attching photos on this site, so we'll see if it works.

#8 is damage just below the V crotch about 2/3 to the top. #9 is damage near the base of the tree just below the first lateral. #11 is the whole tree, damage is kind of hard to see. The trunk is is deceiving, there's another maple just behind this one that has almost nothing left except 2-3 almost dead leaders, but the way the photo is taken, the 2 trunks look like 1.

I'm curious to see how it leafs out. It was hit 10 months ago and then defoliated by caterpillars. When I originally looked at it, there was no fungus growth on the bark below the lower wound, now there is, which makes me think there is more damage than it appeared at first. We'll be taking down 2 other maples on the property, including the one behind this one, but the homeowner wants to keep this one, for obvious reasons. I'm hoping it bounces back well, we can just deadwood it and it'll be fine.


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