# GMO - Organic & what the hell!!!



## tbow388

So I had a lady ask me this today. "Mr Tim sir...are you going to be doing any non-GMO organic produce?"

I am not really up to school on the whole GMO thing and think since I grow it in dirt it is Organic enough for me.

She asked if I sprayed my garden for bugs and I told her I did when needed with Malathion.

Okay so here is my short take on it. I grow in dirt at my home. I spray when needed using the quantity suggested on the instructions. I fertilize when needed using triple 13 and miracle grow. It would have to be better than store bought commercial for the masses food, right?

I don't know. The whole organic thing just throws me for a loop. I really don't know how to answer people when they ask about organic and non GMO stuff. To be honest at this point in my life I don't really care to much about researching it. As far as I know, now days everything gives you cancer, nothing is good for you and you most certainly will die some day.

What do you guys think about the GMO and Organic Veggies?


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## 4x4American

I dont know anything about it but surely its for wimps


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## A10egress

I prefer Organic and non GMO when possible. I just dont like to consume more pesticides than I need to or to have my corn perfected in a laboratory. I'm not saying I only eat that kind but i will buy it when possible. I prefer my eggs to be from free roaming chickens... i prefer grass fed beef, pretty much like things as natural as possible.


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## farmer steve

Tbow, start doin some google searches on it. you will find all the pro's and con's. i di see a report on organic and they said there was no nutritional diff between organic and non organic.i will say it's pretty much up to the grower and how he/she feels.


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## A10egress

farmer steve said:


> i di see a report on organic and they said there was no nutritional diff between organic and non organic..



"nutritional difference", maybe not, but Id be curious to see if the same tests recorded the chemical from spraying, ect. Not picking a fight, just saying, I feel the big lure to organic, non GMO is the fact is closer to the way it was intended to be from nature.


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## farmer steve

A10egress said:


> "nutritional difference", maybe not, but Id be curious to see if the same tests recorded the chemical from spraying, ect. Not picking a fight, just saying, I feel the big lure to organic, non GMO is the fact is closer to the way it was intended to be from nature.


 i should have been a little clearer.they were talking about the cost of organic vs.conventional because people thought they were getting a better product all other factors aside.


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## A10egress

but people should know the differences all around.


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## farmer steve

A10egress said:


> but people should know the differences all around.


 Should is the key word. they read it on the internet and believe it's the gospel. what co. is willow grove? A10's aren't they whats called tank killers?


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## A10egress

farmer steve said:


> Should is the key word. they read it on the internet and believe it's the gospel. what co. is willow grove? A10's aren't they whats called tank killers?


We DID have A-10s here at Willow Grove but the last round of base closures took them away in 2010  We're here in Bucks Co, too close to Philly.


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## tbow388

Thanks guys. I have never been really interested in "All organic" gardening.

I don't faithfully spray my garden once a week. I just spray when needed. I use triple 13 and miracle grow. I don't know how un-organic it is but that is what I use.

Most of what I grow is for my own personal use but I do sell my extras to the public. I made a couple hundred dollars last year.
Some people won't even buy eggs from me because I feed them things from the garden that I sprayed back in the summer.

I guess I will have to do a little research.


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## farmer steve

tbow, look at the #### monsanto thread.'nough stuff there on GMO's to make your head spin.


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## NCTREE

Organic isn't just about pesticides and GMO, it's also about fertilzer. Personally I would never use synthetic fert on my garden, their is so many other ways to fert your gargen without using chemicals. Try using liquid fish emulsion, it works wonders for your plants and is safer for consumption. Composting is the best way to organic fert your garden, take care of the soil and it will take care of you. Tbow look up Permaculture Gardening I think you will find it interesting.


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## McGoo

From a plants perspective, there is no difference between nitrogen from fossil fuel based urea, and nitrogen from cow poo. Same goes for other minerals, the plant can only detect whether the required mineral is present or not. Having a layer of compost is a great idea as it will help reduce evaporation, prevent competitive growth from other plants, moderate soil temperatures, and encourage microbe activity. There is no reason, however, as to why the right fertiliser will be detrimental to a compost layer.


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## NCTREE

Organic fertilizer uses low amounts of buffer nutrients, everything can be used by the plant. The filler uses trace amounts of minerals which translates to better stimulation of biological activity in the soil. Organic fertilizer improves the soil and synthetic does not, it actually can lock up certain mineral and nutrients making unavailable to the plant. Synthetic fertilizer uses too much nitrogen which cause weak watery cell growth in plants which in turn can attract insects and diseases. It also works too fast and is water soluble which in turn washes into our streams(not good for fish). Synthetic fert uses triple super Phosphate(phosphoric acid) which locks on to magnesium and other mineral binding them up and making them unavailable to the plant.


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## farmer steve

NCTREE said:


> Organic fertilizer uses low amounts of buffer nutrients, everything can be used by the plant. The filler uses trace amounts of minerals which translates to better stimulation of biological activity in the soil. Organic fertilizer improves the soil and synthetic does not, it actually can lock up certain mineral and nutrients making unavailable to the plant. Synthetic fertilizer uses too much nitrogen which cause weak watery cell growth in plants which in turn can attract insects and diseases. It also works too fast and is water soluble which in turn washes into our streams(not good for fish). Synthetic fert uses triple super Phosphate(phosphoric acid) which locks on to magnesium and other mineral binding them up and making them unavailable to the plant.


 synthetic or organic the need for a soil test is imperative.using crop specific fertilizer to meet the crops needs cuts down on over use thus not having excessive runoff. to much N-P-K is just a waste of money.


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## NCTREE

farmer steve said:


> synthetic or organic the need for a soil test is imperative.using crop specific fertilizer to meet the crops needs cuts down on over use thus not having excessive runoff. to much N-P-K is just a waste of money.


Crop specific fertilizer? that"s new to to me. All plants require the same nutrients, it's the availability of the nutrients in the soil that determines how the plant will do. Organic fertilizer builds soil structure and retains water better, it also breaks up compacted soil. If you are using organic fertilizer there is know need for a soil test because everything the soil needs is there to grow healthy plants. Synthetic fertilizer is just a temporary fix to the problem which in turn creates more problems over time.


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## farmer steve

sorry, should have said crop specific blend.
after you get your soil test back and say you are growing tomatatoes and your soil test says you need a 5-10-20 to supply the tomatoes the nutrients they need to produce a crop thats what you buy. it would be a waste of money to buy say 20-20-20 when the plants don't need the excess.with all the pollution control in place some tests now tell you to add sulpher to your fert. it's only a minor nutrient but still needed by some crops. if i use my sheep manure (organic) to grow some thing i need to know the nutrient breakdown of it.if it doesn't have the needed say nitrogen to grow my sweet corn i need to add it from some other source. not slamming organic fertilizers, i love manure, but when you need to get a good yield you must use other sources.


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## NCTREE

When I say organic fertilizer i'm more so talking about composting, composting is not just manure it is a mixture of manure and plant waste. Composting is actually a delicate process that need to be monitor and controlled in order to get the right finished product with all beneficial biological material. I'm no expert on composting by any mean but it makes sense to give the soil what naturally occurs when it is undisturbed my humans. There is so many benefits to composting that synthetic ferilizer can't create, sure if your tomatoes need a quick dose of nitrogen then a good organic fertilizer will do the trick such as compost tea or liquid fish emulsion. These fertilizers will do the same thing in a timely fashion as say miracle grow and won't pollute the environment or cause more soil damage.


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## jollygreengiant

NCTREE said:


> Organic fertilizer uses low amounts of buffer nutrients, everything can be used by the plant. The filler uses trace amounts of minerals which translates to better stimulation of biological activity in the soil. Organic fertilizer improves the soil and synthetic does not, it actually can lock up certain mineral and nutrients making unavailable to the plant. Synthetic fertilizer uses too much nitrogen which cause weak watery cell growth in plants which in turn can attract insects and diseases. It also works too fast and is water soluble which in turn washes into our streams(not good for fish). Synthetic fert uses triple super Phosphate(phosphoric acid) which locks on to magnesium and other mineral binding them up and making them unavailable to the plant.



Synthetic fertilizer doesn't improve the soil directly. But you can argue that it does indirectly by increasing crop yields. 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say synthetic fertilizer can "lock up" other nutrients?

Not all synthetic fertilizers have a high nitrogen content. Fertilizers such as potash, mono ammonium phosphate, etc have low concentrations of nitrogen. 

Nitrogen fertilizers do not affect plant cell turgor ( the rigidity of the plant cell). Nitrogen is a key factor in chlorophyll production, amino acid, enzyme, and protein synthesis and it is also used for energy transfer. Plant cell turgor is mainly affected by water, as drought stressed plants do not have enough water to properly fill the cells. Hence why drought stressed plants often droop. Potassium is the main nutrient that affects plant cell turgor. It is also the main nutrient that is responsible for the plants ability to resist diseases and other pests. 

Synthetic fertilizer is water soluble so that it can be taken up by the plant. All nutrient sources must be soluble in water in order to be taken up by the roots, organic fertilizer included. Phosphoric acid does not tie up magnesium. Phosphorous fixation only happens with soil particles or with organic matter. Magnesium is fixed and held in the soil by exchange sites on the Soil particles. These exchange sites are not impacted by phosphorous.


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## jollygreengiant

NCTREE said:


> Crop specific fertilizer? that"s new to to me. All plants require the same nutrients, it's the availability of the nutrients in the soil that determines how the plant will do. Organic fertilizer builds soil structure and retains water better, it also breaks up compacted soil. If you are using organic fertilizer there is know need for a soil test because everything the soil needs is there to grow healthy plants. Synthetic fertilizer is just a temporary fix to the problem which in turn creates more problems over time.


 
If you use an organic fertilizer source, it is still important to get a soil test regularity. Organic fertilizer does not contain all of the essential plant nutrients in a balanced form. Most are quite high in potassium or phosphorous, but are low in nitrogen or sulphur.


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## dingeryote

jollygreengiant said:


> If you use an organic fertilizer source, it is still important to get a soil test regularity. Organic fertilizer does not contain all of the essential plant nutrients in a balanced form. Most are quite high in potassium or phosphorous, but are low in nitrogen or sulphur.



Not to mention most of the commercial "Organic" fertilizers are fraudulent scams of unknown content.

More than one has been busted for selling other than labeled garbage, and some of it contained prohibited substances.
Most of the "Organic" sulphur sold in this country has turned out to be of Chineese origin, and was heavily contaminated with heavy metals...yet for some reason the Organic Dinks seem to think it's healthier than known and proven methods, that have sound science and standards, as well as oversight behind them.

Rattlesnake venom is "Natural", go ahead, put that on your green beans along with the ecoli and choliform. Bon apitite!!

Only an idiot blindly ammends soil, and expects results. 
Only a bigger idiot buys into the Organic industrys disinformation and outright lies.


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## farmer steve

dingeryote said:


> Not to mention most of the commercial "Organic" fertilizers are fraudulent scams of unknown content.
> 
> More than one has been busted for selling other than labeled garbage, and some of it contained prohibited substances.
> Most of the "Organic" sulphur sold in this country has turned out to be of Chineese origin, and was heavily contaminated with heavy metals...yet for some reason the Organic Dinks seem to think it's healthier than known and proven methods, that have sound science and standards, as well as oversight behind them.
> 
> Rattlesnake venom is "Natural", go ahead, put that on your green beans along with the ecoli and choliform. Bon apitite!!
> 
> Only an idiot blindly ammends soil, and expects results.
> Only a bigger idiot buys into the Organic industrys disinformation and outright lies.


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## NCTREE

[q uote="dingeryote, post: 4688477, member: 30902"]Not to mention most of the commercial "Organic" fertilizers are fraudulent scams of unknown content.

More than one has been busted for selling other than labeled garbage, and some of it contained prohibited substances.
Most of the "Organic" sulphur sold in this country has turned out to be of Chineese origin, and was heavily contaminated with heavy metals...yet for some reason the Organic Dinks seem to think it's healthier than known and proven methods, that have sound science and standards, as well as oversight behind them.

Rattlesnake venom is "Natural", go ahead, put that on your green beans along with the ecoli and choliform. Bon apitite!!

Only an idiot blindly ammends soil, and expects results. 
Only a bigger idiot buys into the Organic industrys disinformation and outright lies.[/quote]how can compost and fish emulsion be a scam and fraudulent? Please explain why I'm an idiot please! Is cotton seed meal fraudulent too?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NCTREE

dingeryote said:


> Not to mention most of the commercial "Organic" fertilizers are fraudulent scams of unknown content.
> 
> More than one has been busted for selling other than labeled garbage, and some of it contained prohibited substances.
> Most of the "Organic" sulphur sold in this country has turned out to be of Chineese origin, and was heavily contaminated with heavy metals...yet for some reason the Organic Dinks seem to think it's healthier than known and proven methods, that have sound science and standards, as well as oversight behind them.
> 
> Rattlesnake venom is "Natural", go ahead, put that on your green beans along with the ecoli and choliform. Bon apitite!!
> 
> Only an idiot blindly ammends soil, and expects results.
> Only a bigger idiot buys into the Organic industrys disinformation and outright lies.


Let's here these out right lies too, every industry has a dark side but it a proven fact that organic fertilizers( not granular pellet form organic fertilizer as you are pointing out) are better for the soil and the environment. So go ahead eating your miracle grow produce I'll stick to what works for me.




this is my girlfriend's winter ORGANIC hoop house which is part of a 15 acre 300 member very successful CSA. I guess that is fraudulent BS too. 

You can't have a nice conversation anymore without some jerk starting ****.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jollygreengiant

I will say that organic (think manure type fertilizers, not the certified kind) are the best types of fertilizers for the soil. However they have limitations. They may not contain all the nutrients a plant needs. And if they do, they may not have enough of some nutrients unless they are applied very heavily. 

Then there is the risk of bacterial contamination. Using manure on certain vegetables is not recommended and in some cases illegal, as there is a very high risk of contaminating the food with bacteria such as E. coli. So for these crops the only options are to apply manure a year before the crop is grown, or to use synthetic fertilizers. 

Of course other "certified" organic materials that were mentioned above don't have this problem.


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## farmer steve

i agree JGG. new produce (read gov. regs.) rules are going to require at least 180 days between manure application and harvest of certain vegetables.also stricter rules for irrigation water.


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## dingeryote

NCTREE said:


> Let's here these out right lies too, every industry has a dark side but it a proven fact that organic fertilizers( not granular pellet form organic fertilizer as you are pointing out) are better for the soil and the environment. So go ahead eating your miracle grow produce I'll stick to what works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> this is my girlfriend's winter ORGANIC hoop house which is part of a 15 acre 300 member very successful CSA. I guess that is fraudulent BS too.
> 
> You can't have a nice conversation anymore without some jerk starting ****.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Your claims are based on more ******** than your GF is putting on peoples food.
Good luck with that.

Not knowing what deficiencys exist, and blindly making ammendments with unkonown and unverified materials, leads to soil imbalances and in many cases Nitrogen leaching, and other problems.
Shotgunning decaying animal tissues and biological pathogen ridden matter on peoples food is also not real smart.

Did you ever wonder why people don't keep crusty dog **** in thier refrigerators?
Probably never occured to you, but it's as nasty as keeping **** next to where thier food is grown.

The only fact is that excessive elements from ANY source can be detrimental to the environment, and the only way to approach the matter is starting with knowing what the specific crop needs, and soil deficiencys are, and ammending to the point needed while keeping soil type, irrigation, and carryover in mind.
Adding excessive N or any other ammendment that is not needed, is just as destructive as excessive conventional nutrient bieng applied and breaks down the same with the same effect.

If people are paying your GF for Ecoli, Choliform, Salmonella, Enterococcous spp, slathered veggies from her cute little hothouse, good for her.
I'd like nothing better than all the damn Hippies to eat **** and die, and they are paying her to do it.


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## farmer steve

hey dingeryote ,hows the blueberry plants handling the cold temps?


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## dingeryote

farmer steve said:


> i agree JGG. new produce (read gov. regs.) rules are going to require at least 180 days between manure application and harvest of certain vegetables.also stricter rules for irrigation water.



USDA requires us to keep Manure piles and compost at least 500' away from the field, and we are not allowed to use Manure/ compost unless it has been tested and verified to be free of a yardarms list of biological pathogens and parasites, record of source along with test result, has to be kept for traceback, and application cannot take place less than 180 from harvest.

Our Ponds, and even the dadgum county drain is sampled and tested 3 times a season, all wells are tested twice a season.

If the auditor finds a single Coyote terd in the field and the mitigation plan not implimented to thier satisfaction, it's a fail.

Last year the Auditor saw Turkey tracks in the field and had a fit, because our wildlife mitigation policy was obviously ineffective and needed review.

For cryin' out loud, I have to keep track of my employees using the restroom, and verifying handwashing on a damn log sheet to keep the buyers GAP/GAMPS certs in line.

And the Hippies are soaking ****, table waste, animal tissues, and rotting vegetation in water, then spraying it on the crop after it has stewed for a couple days.

With the big outbreak and deaths from the "Organic" Ecoli and salmonella in the last couple years, I figured people would wake up.
Nope. They still want to eat **** and die. Darwin was correct.


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## farmer steve

my wildlife mitigation policy =270 cal.150 gr, psp. or 12 ga.00 buck. which ever gun is closer


dingeryote said:


> USDA requires us to keep Manure piles and compost at least 500' away from the field, and we are not allowed to use Manure/ compost unless it has been tested and verified to be free of a yardarms list of biological pathogens and parasites, record of source along with test result, has to be kept for traceback, and application cannot take place less than 180 from harvest.
> 
> 
> If the auditor finds a single Coyote terd in the field and the mitigation plan not implimented to thier satisfaction, it's a fail.
> 
> Last year the Auditor saw Turkey tracks in the field and had a fit, because our wildlife mitigation policy was obviously ineffective and needed review.
> 
> With the big outbreak and deaths from the "Organic" Ecoli and salmonella in the last couple years, I figured people would wake up.
> Nope. They still want to eat **** and die. Darwin was correct.


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## dingeryote

farmer steve said:


> hey dingeryote ,hows the blueberry plants handling the cold temps?



LOL!!!
About as well as I am. A little beat up and frost bit, but not dead yet.

The varietys we have are old school and rather hardy down to around -15F. After that, last seasons new growth gets burnt and provides fungus and disease a pathway.

Just eyeballing, I'm guessing no more than 10% at this point, but once budswell comes on, I'll know better.

I flat quit pruning other than clearance in the middles and damaged canes.
Snows up to my arse, and the freeze damage is going to be all kinds of spotty, so what's the point...I might need those older canes and they can wait until March.

I did find a few tissue shattered canes in our rows of newer varietys, but that just means less but bigger fruit on those things, and they get hand picked anyhow.

The big worry is when the thaw comes. It's looking like we are going to lose bushes from drowning, unless I can figure out how to push water uphill. Dadgum new EPA horseshit about temp drains and ditches and permitting, is going to start the next Civil war.

Hows things on your end?


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## dingeryote

farmer steve said:


> my wildlife mitigation policy =270 cal.150 gr, psp. or 12 ga.00 buck. which ever gun is closer





5.56X45 62gr M885, and .45acp 230gr Ball....whichever is closer, seems to work here.

The DNR frowns on taking too many birds, and the 'Yotes have gotten lazy about keeping our bargain.


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## farmer steve

dingeryote said:


> LOL!!!
> About as well as I am. A little beat up and frost bit, but not dead yet.
> Hows things on your end?


 same her. hoping the cold kills a few bugs.only thing i'm wooried about is my dads raspberry plants.strawberries and asparagus should be ok. wish we were closer as i can sell lots of BB at my market. i'm getting them now from a guy that hauls several pallets in from jersey every week.most of the time they are ok but sometimes they are not.


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## NCTREE

dingeryote said:


> Your claims are based on more ******** than your GF is putting on peoples food.
> Good luck with that.
> 
> Not knowing what deficiencys exist, and blindly making ammendments with unkonown and unverified materials, leads to soil imbalances and in many cases Nitrogen leaching, and other problems.
> Shotgunning decaying animal tissues and biological pathogen ridden matter on peoples food is also not real smart.
> 
> Did you ever wonder why people don't keep crusty dog **** in thier refrigerators?
> Probably never occured to you, but it's as nasty as keeping **** next to where thier food is grown.
> 
> The only fact is that excessive elements from ANY source can be detrimental to the environment, and the only way to approach the matter is starting with knowing what the specific crop needs, and soil deficiencys are, and ammending to the point needed while keeping soil type, irrigation, and carryover in mind.
> Adding excessive N or any other ammendment that is not needed, is just as destructive as excessive conventional nutrient bieng applied and breaks down the same with the same effect.
> 
> If people are paying your GF for Ecoli, Choliform, Salmonella, Enterococcous spp, slathered veggies from her cute little hothouse, good for her.
> I'd like nothing better than all the damn Hippies to eat **** and die, and they are paying her to do it.



Lot of ass-suming about something you have no idea what your talking about. Just another penis who likes to hear himself talk. I feel sorry for people like you, I bet people just love you. lol! Jeez! just get it over with, go put some nickleback in and pull the trigger would you. Your sad outlook on life is just a drag for us happy people. I'm done with you.


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## dingeryote

farmer steve said:


> same her. hoping the cold kills a few bugs.only thing i'm wooried about is my dads raspberry plants.strawberries and asparagus should be ok. wish we were closer as i can sell lots of BB at my market. i'm getting them now from a guy that hauls several pallets in from jersey every week.most of the time they are ok but sometimes they are not.



Jersey had a rough time last year with flooding, and overproduction stress causing slow ripening right when the SWD and flooding hit. Just a bad year for them all around.
They should be pretty good this year if they can manage the anthracnose that IS going to be a problem.
Keep an eyeball open for the orange spores on the early and midseason fruit, and don't let them drop off any purples. It's gonna be a bad year for both.

I doubt the Earlyblues, Dukes and Weymouths will be in good supply like last year, so play hardball on the early fruit.
The dadgum Hucksters are already calling around, so they are getting nervous about something.

Would love to haul your way.
Just would have to add another packing line, and barn to put it in.
We are pretty much sold out already unless you want process fruit.


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## Deleted member 83629

doctor said i was fine and blood tests came back clear and i grow sweet corn in my garden and other things that are GMO im not dead yet. 
and having GMO corn is a blessing don't have to spray it and worms are not a problem anymore. and GMO saves me money on chemicals i don't like to hang around.


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## Dalmatian90

farmer steve said:


> i di see a report on organic and they said there was no nutritional diff between organic and non organic.



A lot of organic today is "industrial organic" -- if you're growing carrots in depleted, sandy soil in California or Florida you're going to get carrots poor in nutrients compared to growing in good northern loams. And industrial just gets you into that surreal world of Dingeryote's inspectors freaking out over turkeys in blueberry fields, because the regulators view it as a factory that should be sterile.

You can have good soils with "conventional" agriculture, but it sure makes it easy to run down the quality of the soil and just apply the chemicals that make good looking crops, not that they are necessarily good crops when measured by stuff like nutrients and taste.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/ has some good information.


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## chuckwood

NCTREE said:


> Let's here these out right lies too, every industry has a dark side but it a proven fact that organic fertilizers( not granular pellet form organic fertilizer as you are pointing out) are better for the soil and the environment. So go ahead eating your miracle grow produce I'll stick to what works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> this is my girlfriend's winter ORGANIC hoop house which is part of a 15 acre 300 member very successful CSA. I guess that is fraudulent BS too.
> 
> You can't have a nice conversation anymore without some jerk starting ****.



Well shucks, I thought the place fer fussin' and fightin' was over in the political/religion forum. Well, here's my experience. About ten years ago, I was using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, otherwise not much of a crop could be expected. The reason being the garden area was just plain old worn out from around 100 years of gardening on that same spot. Many decades ago my dad had rejuvenated it by bringing in truckloads of composted leaves, he basically used the Ruth Stout gardening method and got very good results. He did it all the hard way with no tiller. But as the years went by, he got old, and the garden plot just wore out again as I took over (with plenty of tillers). For the past three years I've been bringing in leaf compost by the tandem dumptruck load. The soil is getting rich, soft, and black. I realize not everybody can do this, but it sure does make an incredible difference. About all I fertilize now is the corn and a few other heavy feeders like okra. Before long, I figure I won't even have to do that. What has *really* impressed me is the fact that I don't have near as much damage from insect pests as before when the soil was in poor shape. Last year I never sprayed my taters except once for flea beetles, and I did that with organic pyrethrin - it probably was not needed, they don't do that much damage - but I had NO potato beetles and my plants were very healthy. Years before, one of the regular chores was spraying Sevin to kill Colorado tater beetles. I hated doing that because I knew that the stuff I was spraying was going to leave residues on the taters and eating Sevin is just not good for you. I'm aiming this year to use only organic pesticides when needed, and if things keep going my way, I won't be using much, if any. I do believe that healthy plants make healthy food.


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## Dalmatian90

> The soil is getting rich, soft, and black.



I've earned every cubic inch of my garden the hard way over the last 15 years -- the sunniest spot on my property is also nothing but gravel fill that had a thin layer of grass growing on it, if you kept the autumn olive and multiflora rose at bay. I was doing more planting today, and had some really awesome soil except for the residual rocks that keep coming from the gravel base...slowly but surely.

There's organic and GMO-free and all that done as part of system that people are actually passionate about and think a lot about what they're producing. 

I am not pure organic, but I use very little non-organic. I finally broke down to use Sevin on my squash last year as I have a terrible problem every year with Squash Vine Borers that it resolved. Half the plants this year will get Sevin dust I know works, the other half will be an experiment with injecting Bt that I think will work (have to inject it since SVB caterpillars grow inside the stems). Bought a small bag of 10-10-10 because my Rhubarb patch has never, ever truly thrived and I think it's time to try and goose it through modern chemistry. I use the synthetic stuff when I've exhausted my practical options for the amount of time, available resources, and knowledge I have to deal with stuff.

There's also...this:






Wonder how much taxpayer money they got to subsidize that factory re-use -- and it's just using organic and GMO-free as marketing buzz, because I don't care how many green words you use, growing vegetables in water under artificial light ain't sustainable, ain't cheap, and I guarantee won't have the human nutritional value of a carrot or head of lettuce grown in a hoophouse over native Minnesota soils properly amended my compost and earthworms partying away, soaking up the light and heat provided for free by the sun.

(The earthworm is actually an invasive species -- southern New England's forests at the time of European settlement had much, much thicker layers of duff because there were no earthworms chewing them up. It's one way our ecosystem will never be restored to what it once was and why "old growth" is a pretty meaningless term in this part of the country. There are parts of Maine, and perhaps NH & VT, still outside of the reach of earthworms, but sometime before the next round of glaciers they'll get to those forests too.)


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## Marco

Yup Jim, I rented 320 acres of corn ground and need Atrazine for all of it.


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## Marco

I bet ***** don't smell as good as Atrazine and crop oil in the sprayer tank.


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## Marco

Price of fuel, lack of labor. City folk used to take their vacation so they could come help on the farm, now we need to be entertained, and your doing it wrong. 
Waiting for Chipotle to show up with their checkbook and set me right.


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## chuckwood

dingeryote said:


> Did you ever wonder why people don't keep crusty dog **** in thier refrigerators?
> Probably never occured to you, but it's as nasty as keeping **** next to where thier food is grown.
> 
> If people are paying your GF for Ecoli, Choliform, Salmonella, Enterococcous spp, slathered veggies from her cute little hothouse, good for her.
> I'd like nothing better than all the damn Hippies to eat **** and die, and they are paying her to do it.



Then you need to consider "peecycling". Not everything old liberals and hippies do is bad or unworkable. Here's how it goes. Urea is one of the raw ingredients used in making nitrogen fertilizers. It's also the prime component of human urine. Countless tons of valuable nitrogen fertilizer are flushed down toilets every day. So what hippies do is pee in jugs instead and put it back in their gardens. Pee is essentially sterile, it doesn't contain pathogens unless you have a kidney infection. 
This saves money on your water and sewer bills, and helps the environment and saves energy, a win-win any way you look at it. You save money on not having to buy nitrogen fertilizer. It can be fun for the whole family, you'd be amazed at how much pee can be produced by a family of four or five. It's a bit more complicated for the ladies in that they will need something more elaborate to use than just a wide mouth plastic bottle. But there is no reason they can't get enthusiastic about peecycling as well. One possible solution is using a five gallon bucket modified with a seat around the rim to make it more comfortable. If you are really serious about peecycling, get your neighbors involved, they too will enjoy the benefits of reduced water bills and being environmentally responsible, even if they don't have gardens, and you will enjoy having a huge supply of urea for those heavy nitrogen feeders like corn. Of course, you'll need to share a bit of your crop with your neighbors if they help with the fertilizing. For old hippies with prostrate problems there is nothing more annoying than having to wake up all the time during the night to go to pee in the bathroom. But with peecycling, no problem. The peepot is right under the bed, not in another room or at the other side of the room. You won't have to bother with turning lights on. Life is always better when things are convenient and peecyling makes it so!


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## Dalmatian90

Few years back my mom (79) was recalling how she used to pick mushrooms as a five year old. Here grandparents would double check her basket afterwards to make sure she didn't pick any bad ones by mistake.

Then she suddenly realized after all those decades one of her best picking spots was out in the horse pasture where another of her chores during good weather was to dump their pisspots. (Bad weather she got to just pour them out in the outhouse). They didn't have indoor plumbing till after WWII, which is kind of amazing to think how quickly standards change, since my grandparents you'd consider middle class and my grandfather was a white-collar worker for most of his life.


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## NCTREE

chuckwood said:


> Well shucks, I thought the place fer fussin' and fightin' was over in the political/religion forum. Well, here's my experience. About ten years ago, I was using synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, otherwise not much of a crop could be expected. The reason being the garden area was just plain old worn out from around 100 years of gardening on that same spot. Many decades ago my dad had rejuvenated it by bringing in truckloads of composted leaves, he basically used the Ruth Stout gardening method and got very good results. He did it all the hard way with no tiller. But as the years went by, he got old, and the garden plot just wore out again as I took over (with plenty of tillers). For the past three years I've been bringing in leaf compost by the tandem dumptruck load. The soil is getting rich, soft, and black. I realize not everybody can do this, but it sure does make an incredible difference. About all I fertilize now is the corn and a few other heavy feeders like okra. Before long, I figure I won't even have to do that. What has *really* impressed me is the fact that I don't have near as much damage from insect pests as before when the soil was in poor shape. Last year I never sprayed my taters except once for flea beetles, and I did that with organic pyrethrin - it probably was not needed, they don't do that much damage - but I had NO potato beetles and my plants were very healthy. Years before, one of the regular chores was spraying Sevin to kill Colorado tater beetles. I hated doing that because I knew that the stuff I was spraying was going to leave residues on the taters and eating Sevin is just not good for you. I'm aiming this year to use only organic pesticides when needed, and if things keep going my way, I won't be using much, if any. I do believe that healthy plants make healthy food.


We are going to start experimenting with permaculture this year I am a tree guy and have unlimited supply to wood chips. I have a pile that i've been turning for a couple years. I think it's feasible on a large scale production farm if you have access to the chips. So many benefits to it like less irrigation and weed competition, minimal fertilizing.


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## Marco

Slide the outhouse over and get a shovel.


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