# Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil?



## rustyb (Mar 27, 2005)

Several weeks ago, I posted a question about Stihl bioplus oil. Some one mentioned vegetable oil as a less expensive possibility. I had also read about carvers using it in National Parks where standard petrol based oil was not allowed. 

After giving this a lot of thought, I decided to drain the oil tanks in my four saws & replace the "bar oil" with Canalo Oil. Sure, the Canalo Oil has no added tack but is tack really needed? I have taken my chains off after running the Canalo Oil and there seems to be plenty of oil all the way around. So, why not use it? It has to be healthier for both operator & the environment & as far as I can tell, no more pricey than standard "bar oil". Seems like a no-brainer to me. 

Could we perhaps have gotten locked into a hard-to-let-go belief system that standard "bar oil" with the added tack is the only way when in fact there's a better alternative right before our eyes?


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## Pioneer (Mar 27, 2005)

Rustyb, watch for accelerated nose wear on the underside of the bar just where the chain first comes in contact with it. I have been using Canola in a couple of my saws and have had this happen on one of them, but it might just be a soft bar. So far the chains seem to love it; very little stretch. I did some research on Canola's lubricating properties a while back, it reports to work very well in thin film applications, but I am keeping an eye out on the parts that have large clearances and would benefit from a higher viscosity oil.

Keep us posted , I would like to see what your results are with this stuff.


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## Wood Cutter (Mar 27, 2005)

I have been thinking of switching over to a vegetable oil. Will a plain vegetable oil work or will I need to get canola oil? Thanks.
Ryan


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## bvaught (Mar 27, 2005)

Any lubricant will work as long as it will flow through the oiler and onto the chain. But make no mistake bar oil is better for your bar and chain.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

"better" hasn't been proven. Opinions have been tossed around though.

Go to Costco or some other big box store and buy seed sqeezin's in five gallon jugs. Compare the price to petro oil. I found that veggie was cheaper. Even if there is a bit of wear the savings would offset the replacemnt. And...the veggie is renewable along with all of the other environmental issues.


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## stihltech (Mar 27, 2005)

*bar oil*

So the resins added to bar oil to make it tackier and stick to the chain so it is lubricating the bottom of the bar is a bunch of hooey?


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## ron in sc (Mar 27, 2005)

What about just using regular motor oil? Is that good, bad or doesn't matter. I have a small stock of old dino oil I don't use anymore in any of my vehicles so I've just used it as bar oil. It's 10W 30 if I'm not mistaken.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

stihltech said:


> ... a bunch of hooey?



Has there been side by side tests to show the value? In 30 years of cutting I've never bought a drop of "bar lube" New motor oil, used motor oil, used hydraulic fluid and veggie oil. In all those years I never saw my bars wearing away to nothing. chains always had long life. 

When I worked out the cost savings of the alternatives vrs. bar lube, I was putting money in my pocket that could be used later in the odd case that the chains and bars wore out.


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## clearance (Mar 27, 2005)

Veg oil is not as good for your saw as regular bar oil, epecially when its hot outside in my opinion. UAroundcreeks and water but thats it. I heard that guys running excavators in enviromentally sensitive areas have to use veg hydraulic oil and that it has a detrimental affect on the rams and pumps. One thing to use it in a chainsaw but how about using it in a quarter or half million dollar machine?


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## Lobo (Mar 27, 2005)

Several years back there was a thread on another site on this exact same subject using motor oil as chain & bar lube. A fellow many of you here may know by the name of Walt Galer had done such testing while working for either a chainsaw manufacturer or a chain manufacturer. He actually encouraged using motor oil as according to him it was the best lube he had found. I believe he claimed we should use 30 in the summer and 20 diluted in diesel in winter. Actually any new motor oil would do (not dirty oil out of a vehicles crankcase however) I have done so in the past without a problem.

Please note that I am going from memory on this and I am trying to remember facts of a few years past. I do remember our friend Gypo participating in this thread also.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 27, 2005)

Clearance,

You're mixing metaphors again. Are we talking about veggie bar oil or veggie hydraulic fluid? Two different issues...and you're sharing anecdotal stories. 

I'm sharing my experiences. Things may be different for others.


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## galde (Mar 27, 2005)

One way to gauge the performance of a bar/chain oil is to stop the saw and feel the temperature of the bar/chain immediately after doing a long, hard cut. This test is most revealing with a hard nosed bar and an upward cut. No oil will keep a bar/chain cool if the chain is dull, so this test should be with a sharp chain.


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## 2Coilinveins (Mar 27, 2005)

I've used vegi oil in several saws with no ill effects, and continue to do so. Bars seem to last just as long as they did with regular bar oil, and chains seem to stay sharp longer.


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## njforestfire (Mar 29, 2005)

I have a good supply available of bar oil...wonder if it could be mixed with the veggie oil (1 to 1 ratio or 50%) to increase the duration of bar oil one has to use. I would think since the viscosity is different between bar and veggie oil, one would have to turn down the oiler supply feed rate if possible? Would suck if one couldn't do that on the older, non-adjustable oilers. I would think it would be sitting in a pool of veggie oil then....IMO.


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## Molecule (Mar 29, 2005)

*Hope you love cleaning your saws ... real good!*

I'm convinced that while heat is the acknowledged or "visible" killer of saws, sawdust is the most vicious of the so-called unacknowledged or "invisibile" killers of a saw. And, the worst kind of sawdust by far, is the oil-impregnated sawdust that saturates everything around a saw when it breathes.

Of the 3 saws I've bought which had seized, all from eBay, the saws were compacted througoutt (including under the flywheel ... inside the oil pump ... everywhere imaginable) with a 1/8" to 1" layer a kind of dried out and hardened oil-impregnated *sawdust*. In one case, a 120si, the air filter compartment was so compacted with the [email protected], there was no way that carb could breathe thru the air filter (the sawdust cake could not be removed from the fabric of the filter without destroying the filter itself), let alone the control valve air vent on the bottom of the carb (and the metering value loses its "access" to atmospheric pressure, the fuel pump is no longer able to deliver its fuel pressure to the jets, and the saw leans out ... from dust! blocking air to a 1/16" breather hole.)

In one case, the oil impregnated sawdust was hardened like a brick. And lo!, the oil in the oil tank was a pink color ... I never saw oil like that! It smelled like it could have been vegetable oil. It could also have been maybe a detergent soap (which might also make an interesting bar lube).

TMALSH, if I was going to use vegetable oil, I would (a) use a chain whose characteristic is low sawdust generating (a subject for worthwhile thread IMHO, if someone has any experience with that .. maybe the semi-chisel might be better than the full chisel in terms of minimum sawdust at the end of a day), and (b) don't let vegetable oil impregnated sawdust (which fills the air everywhere around the saw) harden up on you. The one I had looked like it had been put up for a couple of months, but at some point, it had hardened up like a brick, while in other abused saws using regular mineral oil, the sawdust was relatively soft and easy to clean.


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## rupedoggy (Mar 29, 2005)

I like to use the bacon grease left over from the local diner. If I cut just before lunch the smell makes my co-workers hungry. They buy more food at the local diner and then I have more bar lube. It does clog a bit on cold days.


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## Bills Oak (Mar 29, 2005)

*Bar Oil*

I could not stand it any more so here goes!--I cut a HELL OF A LOT of Oak--really hard stuff & I use my old drained off diesel oil out of my truck mixed 50/50 with 90 weight gear lube--much less expensive than any commercial bar oils!. I can see no difference in bar & or chain wear using this mix. The problem I have with bar oils like Husquvarna is that they are sticky & everything sticks to the bar when this gooey crap is used, i.e. sand, dirt, wood chips, etc. This extra grit does more damage than appreciable bar wear using any other decent lubricant. My old mac saws with roller tips lube just fine & I have not had a failure yet. My Husquvarnas get used daily--about four tanks of fuel & bar oil each & they also do just fine if maintained properly. Thanks--I feel better now!.....Bill Irvine


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## bvaught (Mar 29, 2005)

Why dont all you veggie oil guys start putting that in your automobile crankcase. Couldnt hurt, theres no "real evidence" one is better than the other. And its got to be better for the environment. 

From now on Im using bacon grease too. I like the smell, and if it clogs because its too cold out, the heat from the bar not getting lubricated willl eventually heat up the grease and it will start working again.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 29, 2005)

bvaught said:


> Why dont all you veggie oil guys start putting that in your automobile crankcase. Couldnt hurt, theres no "real evidence" one is better than the other. And its got to be better for the environment.



If you're making a funny, why not put in a smiley  

I'll take it that you're serious. Do you realize the different lubrication of a chainsaw and a motor? Also, what the consequences of using the wrong lube? If a bar/chain/sprocket goes bad it costs a few dollars. There seems to be a lot of vege-bar-ians posting about their success. What's the harm in giving it a try?

I got a chuckle from the anti-veggie posts  I would expect that feedback if we were talking about the choice of something important like a hunting dog


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## Lobo (Mar 29, 2005)

Tom Dunlap said:


> If you're making a funny, why not put in a smiley
> 
> I'll take it that you're serious. Do you realize the different lubrication of a chainsaw and a motor? Also, what the consequences of using the wrong lube? If a bar/chain/sprocket goes bad it costs a few dollars. There seems to be a lot of vege-bar-ians posting about their success. What's the harm in giving it a try?



Tom, Its gotta be some engineers humour, you know how some of them knot holes can be !


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## bvaught (Mar 29, 2005)

*Smiley*

Smileys?  I havent taken the time to go to advanced mode until now. Yeah, I was trying to make a funny. But I didnt do near as well as the Bacon Grease post  . 

Its a free country, run what you want. If I ever buy a Poulan at a yardsale for $10, I will plan on running old McDonalds french fry oil, since its my favorite. On second thought I really like olives too...


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## bvaught (Mar 29, 2005)

Lobo, 

I would like to share a beer or 10 with you someday. If you got that I was an engineer from my profile that is only partially true. I am really more of a project manager with a project engineer title. I get to find the mistakes the engineers make, point them out, suggest a solution, and then do it their way! 

BTW are you still using that training wheel, crapo, old man RM2 chain?  Im sure that chain would work lots better with bacon grease.  Keep the cheap shots coming!


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## 2Coilinveins (Mar 29, 2005)

Used crankcase oil? No thanks. There's some *nasty* stuff in used crankcase oil. Rather not have that flung around me, on my clothes, skin, etc.


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## Lobo (Mar 29, 2005)

2Coilinveins said:


> Used crankcase oil? No thanks. There's some *nasty* stuff in used crankcase oil. Rather not have that flung around me, on my clothes, skin, etc.



Actually used engine oil has been proven to be a cancer causing agent. Not really something that should be used in a saw as it is full of particles of vatious metals and crap of all kinds, surely can not be good for the pump.

As the old saying goes '' You can pay me now or pay me later ''.


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## Pioneer (Mar 30, 2005)

Canola as crankcase oil- that's pretty funny! Or is it? Check out this link guys.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1999/v4-247.html


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## geofore (Mar 30, 2005)

Lobo said:


> Actually used engine oil has been proven to be a cancer causing agent. Not really something that should be used in a saw as it is full of particles of vatious metals and crap of all kinds, surely can not be good for the pump.
> 
> Think about this, the pump in your car pumps that same oil around for a couple hundred of hours before you change it. It goes through your saw ONCE! Why doesn't your car's pump quit? And how many gallons of that used oil did you have to drink before you got cancer?


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## Crofter (Mar 30, 2005)

I remember working around a saw that my father was using old motor oil in. It sure stinks you up worse than new bar oil.
Crankcase drainings have a lot of grit particles that collect on the bottom of the pan. What goes through the engine will have been screened by the pickup and filtered by the oil filter. I think most saws will have some kind of an inlet filter, but it wont remove the acidic properties of used oil or tramp gummy glycol drippings. I wouldn't try to save money that way.


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## Lobo (Mar 30, 2005)

geofore said:


> Lobo said:
> 
> 
> > Actually used engine oil has been proven to be a cancer causing agent. Not really something that should be used in a saw as it is full of particles of vatious metals and crap of all kinds, surely can not be good for the pump.
> ...


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 30, 2005)

BAck when I did use motor oil it was drained into a barrel. The pickup tube on the transfer pump was well off the bottom. All of this mythical "grit", if there ever were any would have settled to the bottom. If there were any "grit" in suspension the oil filter would have taken care of that in the engine or it would have trashed the close tolerance assemblies long before it ended up in the chainsaw. 

Now, I can maybe see some issues with the acidity or other things in the oil. But, I'll maintain that I never saw any increased problems with any of my saws. Just the stink and mess got to be too much.


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## Molecule (Mar 30, 2005)

*lemon scented ...*

CRYSTAL WHITE, by Octagon

as a chaser to the MacDonalds and Greasy Spoon bacon grease, try lemon scented octagon detergent - it's the best and cheapest you can get. Cleans as it lubricates!

Plus at the end of the day, your wife will say, "Gee honey, you smell like you've been cuttin' lemons all day long." And if any of your friends try "sniffin' out" you chainsaw, they'll say, "Hmmm, smells like a lemon to me--better leave that thing alone." (If it smells like bacon grease on the other hand, no tellin' what they might do.)







*Now --- That's environmentally friendly!!*


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 30, 2005)

Pioneer,

Thanks for the link. Here are a couple of things from that study:

The oil when tested for marine toxicity was found to be over 210,000 times less toxic than its petroleum counterpart. Additional ICP analysis of used automotive oil show no significant metals in either the new or used canola-based motor oil. Heavy metals are an integral part of petroleum-based lubricants but are not added to the vegetable-based oil. No metal contaminants, with the exception of iron, were accumulated by the canola-based oil.

A canola-based motor oil was found to be a feasible alternative to conventional and synthetic petroleum motor oils.


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## SawTroll (Mar 31, 2005)

*First impression report on Veg-Oil*

I tried veggie bar oil (Husky Veg-Oil) for the first time some days ago. What I noted immidiately was that the oiler on the saw (Husky 353) seemed to oil a lot better, than with regular bar oil. I adjusted the oiler to minimum, and it still seemed to oil nicely. Temperature was about 0 degrees celsius.

Too early to draw any conclutions of course, but potensial benefits could be oiling in cold weater, and use with oilers that has low or marginal output, and it is easily washable if you spill it.


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## rustyb (Apr 3, 2005)

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Question for bvaught though. In regards to the below statement of yours, can you explain why and how you know this?

Thanks,
r 

*"But make no mistake bar oil is better for your bar and chain".*


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 3, 2005)

I have never heard it metioned but has there ever been any research or testing done with one of the new 'miracle' cutting lubes for use with cutting chain? I've been using this one for several years, now:

http://www.lenoxsaw.com/protool_lube.htm

I use it whenever using any hand saw or drill, but I never thought of using it in a chainsaw until I read this thread. If any of you on this site frequently fabricate things by cutting and drilling, you really ought to give this stuff a try, I promise you will be amazed at the difference it makes. It seems to work equally well on metal and wood cutting applications. Doubles and triples the life of Sawzall blades. More than doubles cutting speed and dramatically reduces temperatures.

Just makes me wonder if it will wake up a chainsaw the way it does every other saw it touches.

Jimbo


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## bwalker (Apr 3, 2005)

With bar oil selling for under $3 per gallon at Walmart I think I will stick with that.
Using used drain oils isnt smart from an environmental or health standpoint, but that doesnt stop the idiots from using it. If you like to inhale alot of zinc, phosphorus, cadmium by all means go for it.


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## rustyb (Apr 4, 2005)

*Ben, I agree w/ your point on used motor oil.*

However, when you say "from an environmental or health standpoint", couldn't a similar comparison be made between a petroleum based "bar oil" and a vegi oil? From those stand points alone, don't you think the vegi oil wins? 

Thanks,
r


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

Dino bar oil from a environmental stand point isnt that bad, because it deosnt have all the mettalic aditives and nasty chemicals that motor oil has. It might take slightly longer to biodegrade than vegi oil, but I think in general its pretty harmless.
As far as vegi oil goes. I dont know if it would work well or not. I do know the saw companies sell it and in order for them to get it to work acceptably it cost an arm and a leg. I have my doubts about pure vegi oil and percieve very little to no benifit of its use over purpose made bar oil.


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## Crofter (Apr 4, 2005)

Environmental impact is not easy to appraise. It would appear veggie oil should be a no brainer, but the amount of petroleum product used to produce it thru the whole chain of events could well be higher than the product it replaces. If it is times more expensive, you have to burn up a lot more energy to earn the money to buy it. It is easy to get caught up in making an emotional decision.


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

Very true, Frank. I also wouldnt make the assumption that just because the oil is veggi based that it bio degrades any faster.


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## rustyb (Apr 4, 2005)

*Ben, I'm no expert by any means.*

But, I have always been under the impression, from everything I have read, that petroleum based oils were hard on the eco-system......bugs, aquatic life, delicate plants, etc. No?

Also, I know there's a fine mist of oil being created around the operator that no doubt gets into the body whether through skin absorption or inhalation. That's inevitable so it seems to me creating a mist from something thats suitable to digest (ie, vegi oil) would be better for the operator, particularly long term.

What do you think?

And lastly, just curious what you mean by "to work acceptably"? I have been keeping a close eye on my chains/bars and as far as I can tell, there's oil all the way around. What more would a bar/chain need?

Not trying to be argumentative here. Just trying to learn.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 4, 2005)

*Stepping up for the environment*

I love the fact that this is being discussed so passionately.


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## Lewis Brander (Apr 4, 2005)

*Canola oil mixed with gas:*

I read a thread, where a fellow in, I believe, Sweden is mixing canola oil in his gas to use in his 2 stroke equipment and testing it. He's used it in some of his smaller equipment (weed eaters, hedge trimmers) with no adverse affects so far that he can tell. He's also thinking about using it in in his smaller used saws to see how well it works. Apparently it's cheaper than buying regular mix oils to use in his equipment and just gets it from the grocery store. I'll have to go and dig up that thread again to see if he's posted more on it. 

I remember my grandfather telling that during the war, when everything was rationed, that he had an old stationary engine he used on a saw blade to cut wood (engine with babbit brgs, Oil cups, etc). He could get some sort of veggie oil fairly cheap, used it in that engine and didn't see any advirse effects or abnormal wear. I always got a kick out of the story, when I remember it. Seems that with the prices of gas and oil today that some company hasn't been more adventurous in developing a veggie based oil that could be offered as a petrolium substtute. I'm no expert, nor have I kept up on all the technology going on in oil developement. Maybe there is an alternative being developed. I would be curious to know more about this. Any comments? Take care. Lewis.


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

> But, I have always been under the impression, from everything I have read, that petroleum based oils were hard on the eco-system......bugs, aquatic life, delicate plants, etc. No?


 I dont know for certain, but I would imagine that vegi oil would be tough on them also. After all if you pour some canola oil on your grass it will kill it. The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives....



> Also, I know there's a fine mist of oil being created around the operator that no doubt gets into the body whether through skin absorption or inhalation. That's inevitable so it seems to me creating a mist from something thats suitable to digest (ie, vegi oil) would be better for the operator, particularly long term.


 I dont know about the fine mist theory..atleast not with tacky bar oil. Most of the oil is absorbed by the cips,dust or thrown of the tip. In other words the operator isnt working in ahze of oil mist. When it comes to inhaltion it may be better to inhale vegi oil vs. dino oil. I have no idea. It also might be bad to inhale both, which is what I suspect.


> And lastly, just curious what you mean by "to work acceptably"? I have been keeping a close eye on my chains/bars and as far as I can tell, there's oil all the way around. What more would a bar/chain need?


 I mean not have a detrimental effect on bar and chain life, or the life of the oil pump.


> Not trying to be argumentative here. Just trying to learn.


 I know your not and what you are doing is why we all are on this site in the first place.


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## rustyb (Apr 4, 2005)

Ben,

If I get some time soon, I may gather up a few different bugs and worms and put both bar oil & vegi oil on them to just observe. I would like to do the same with some plants. I think it's safe to say though that the petrol oil, with it's added chemicals, will most likely have more of an effect on the worms.

As far as the mist, it is not a theory. I know this as I carve near the front of where I park my pickup (it's the most convenient place for me). The hood, though a good 5 yards away, gets covered with a film of oil which then collects dust. Even the windshield gets misted. The evidence is also on my coveralls as well as my shoes. I have noticed more misting with canola oil but I would guess that to be due to the lower viscosity. Unfortunately, I can't turn the oiler down as none of my saws have adj oilers. As far as which is better to breath, I'm going with the vegi for the sheer fact there are no added chemicals. As you said: _"The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives...."_


As for the chain & bar, I knew what you meant. I just wanted you to clarify what is considered to be acceptable by the saw companies. What is it about straight vegi oil that would have a "detrimental effect" on the bar and chain life? As I said, I have been watching this stuff and there's oil on the chain and bar,.....all around. What else is needed? Am I missing something here?

And lastly, now that you brought up the pump, how could straight vegi oil be harder on it? Seems it would be easier on it being the vegi oil flows more freely. In other words, seems to me that the pump would work less therefore last longer. Again, am I missing something here?

Thanks,
rusty


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

> As you said: "The bad part of petrol based oil is not the oil itself but the chemical and compounds used as additives...."


The chemicals and compunds I am refering to are found in motor oil. Bar oil doesnt have these. Bar oils is basiciy a straight 30 wt oil with a polymer tach additive.
From the sounds of things, Rusty, it seems like you are getting good results and that you have your mind set, so why the need for further discussion?



> And lastly, now that you brought up the pump, how could straight vegi oil be harder on it? Seems it would be easier on it being the vegi oil flows more freely.


 Veggi oil doesnt flow more well in cold weather at all. It in fact clouds up and becomes a semi solid. Also have you considered the effect that oxidized vegi oil will have on your pump.
I might also point out in regards to oil mist that a carving application is a little differant than a traditional saw application. I have bucked firewood all do behind a skidder and never noticed any residue on the skidders bumper plate.


> As for the chain & bar, I knew what you meant. I just wanted you to clarify what is considered to be acceptable by the saw companies. What is it about straight vegi oil that would have a "detrimental effect" on the bar and chain life? As I said, I have been watching this stuff and there's oil on the chain and bar,.....all around. What else is needed? Am I missing something here?


 So in other words just because you are getting decent life with a small saw and a short carving bar that vegi oil will work equally well for everyone? Like I said before, i'm sticking with sub $3 supertech bar oil. 
BTW havent you guys thought of the reason why the OEM veggi based bar oils are so high in price? Is it becaseu of the myriad of additives they must add to get them to work properly or is it a supply and demand thing?


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## rustyb (Apr 4, 2005)

* Quote:
From the sounds of things, Rusty, it seems like you are getting good results and that you have your mind set, so why the need for further discussion?
*
Like I said before, I am trying to learn. And if vegi oil is not better than "bar oil", I want someone to tell me why and how they know. So far, no one has convinced me with real world experience.

*Quote:
Veggi oil doesnt flow more well in cold weather at all. It in fact clouds up and becomes a semi solid. Also have you considered the effect that oxidized vegi oil will have on your pump.*

I overlooked the cold weather aspect. See, I learned something new. Not a problem for me though as I don't have to use a saw in cold weather. As for the oxidation, can you or someone else explain how this happens, after how long, ways of preventing it.....if there are any, etc, etc?

*Quote:
I might also point out in regards to oil mist that a carving application is a little differant than a traditional saw application.
*
Yet another thing I hadn't considered and that's why I want more discussion. However, I have personally noticed oil on my clothes after cutting firewood too. Granted though, not as much as when carving...particularly with canola.

As for not noticing oil on the skidder, have you taken a very close look for this specifacally? I'm not talking about large clumps of oil but what would accumulate from a fine mist. For me, it is easy to identify on the windshield but not so much elsewhere. It makes a mess on the glass, as you can probably imagine.

*Quote:
So in other words just because you are getting decent life with a samll saw and a short carving bar that vegi oil will work equally well for everyone? Like I said before, i'm sticking with sub $3 supertech bar oil.*

No. I didn't say that nor did I imply it that I'm aware of. And, I'm not just using canola in my carving saws. Though not big by any stds, I have been using it in my 260 w/16 & 18" bars for firewood. Furthermore, I have not been using canola long. But, I have been observing the oil and where it goes & how much. 

Any how, I have just been wondering if vegi oil is perhaps an all-too-often overlooked alternative to "bar oil". Alternative doesn't imply a workable solution to all users but it may be for many. I guess I'm as intrigued with the notion that so many people seem to be afraid of the term alternative than I am with the oils themselves.

The bottom line for me is the health aspect. I want someone to convince me that vegi oil is not healthier for me and the environment. Even *IF *there is a slight bit more wear on the saw, I don't care. To me, ones health and the environments health should be priority........if there's a workable alternative. But, that's just me.....

Thanks for the dialog, Ben.
r
*
Quote:
BTW havent you guys thought of the reason why the OEM veggi based bar oils are so high in price? Is it becaseu of the myriad of additives they must add to get them to work properly or is it a supply and demand thing?*

ha ha, you edited before I posted, Ben. Anyhoo, you say "must add to get them to work properly". Well, exactley what additives are being added and why must they be added to make the oil work "properly"?


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

i would imagine at a minimum that they would have to add a tac agent, a anitoxidant of some sort, and a pour point depressent.There very well could be a few more.


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## rustyb (Apr 4, 2005)

Ben,

You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers. . So why,...why do "*they have to*" add these things, particularly tac?

Also, my last post must have been so long you didn't notice my question about taking a close look on your skidder for oil mist. Have you?

Thanks, I appreciate it.

rusty


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## bwalker (Apr 4, 2005)

To keep the oil from misting like you observed and to prolong bar life. And no I havent inspected the back of the skidder with a mag glass, but to the naked I I didnt observe any. Just like suinf red bar oil during the winter. The only place that has the died oil on it is a place that has come into contact with the chips.


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## mktest (Apr 4, 2005)

Here's a life-cycle assesment on veggie bar oil : http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/5/173.htm

Ok, studies can be made to show anything I guess, but it indicates that when it comes to "green-house" gases it is better than mineral oil.

But I think the main issue is, as people have suggested in the thread earlier, that the main point (besides being able to do the job, lubricating) is that veggie oils are most likely better for health reasons. Of course, a bad additive might ruin an otherwise safe oil (mineral or veggie), but I can't imagine there are more unknown chemicals in veggie oil than in mineral oil. 

I haven't used a chainsaw professionally, so I can't vouch for the long-term quality of vegetable bar oils during extreme conditions. But from what I've experienced veggie oil smells nice and look nice too The chain looks and feels "smoother" on the bar, and I haven't noticed any increase in heat. The oil also lasts longer, which would make the price a bit less steep. I think my dad bought Eko100 which is certified for -27C (-17F) and that's fine by me, it's excellent in summer too. There is vegetable oil that can be used down to -39C (-38F), colder than that I don't know. For hot summers vegetable oil works fine too, it doesn't become as "watery" as many mineral oils. Vegetable oil will "freeze" if kept still in freezing conditions for days (similar to olive oil in refrigerators), so it's recommended to keep saws and oil indoors over night. 

I haven't tried vegetable two-stroke oil, but vegetable castor oil used to be in all the racing bikes some years ago. With vegetable oil becoming more and more hight-tech (even venturing into gentically modified plants) I'm sure we'll see that for our saws as well. And fuel similar to Aspen. I'm not sure about ethanol though, as that would mean heavier saws, or more refilling 

I like vegetable oil, I use linseed oil to protect tools and tractor equipment from rust, on wood of course, and I use rapeseed oil to smoothen up folding knives, scissors and pliers that get in contact with food, whenever thats needed.

If I ever run out of bar oil I'd happily go into the kitchen and get the rapeseed oil I use for cooking  (it has no protection against oxidization so I wouldn't leave it in the saw for too long though)

Edited : From what I know, Husqvarna no longer sells mineral bar oil in Europe, they only sell Veggie? (or EU at least)

For reference (in swedish, but sources are always good) : http://www.scandiaoil.se/03_smo/Industrioljor.asp , http://www.eko100.com/rwdx/cache/sagkedjeolja_889_AWXLO95510.asp


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## 2Coilinveins (Apr 4, 2005)

Has anyone tried biodiesel as bar oil? That would take care of the oxidation issue brought up using straight vegi oil. Biodiesel has higher lubricity than dino diesel. If biodiesel can do such a good job lubing an injection pump, one would think it would lube a bar and chain just fine. Good argument for the lubricating properties of straight vegi oil too.


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## Noah (Apr 4, 2005)

rupedoggy said:


> I like to use the bacon grease left over from the local diner. If I cut just before lunch the smell makes my co-workers hungry. They buy more food at the local diner and then I have more bar lube. It does clog a bit on cold days.


 
I'm still cracking up over that one!  


But it reminded me of that fact that *some cars really CAN run on grease left over from the local diner!*

Check this out http://www.bagelhole.org/drafts/Bio-Diesel_Fuel.html

With the price of gasoline, its a shame that it only works on converted diesal engines.


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## sawdust (Apr 4, 2005)

I tried canola oil in a pair of pruning saws today. Non-adjustable oilers in 38cc Poulan 2300's. These saws do not put out sufficient quanities of Stihl b&c oil. When I tried the canola, it looled like they were putting out 5 times as much. I would have to refil the oil tank before the gas tank is half empty. What oil might be inbetween the too thick oil and the too light canola? Might be a way to tune oil flow on saws with non-adjustable oilers. I need lots of oil on my bar & chain in the summer when it's over 100 degrees in the shade. Any suggestions? Thanks!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

"Any suggestions? Thanks!"

Get yourself a professional level saw, Mr Sawdust. You need Neiger to power port you a 346XP  . One thing, with the Poulan's, as you say, funky oiler (common on all industrial homeowner type chainsaws). If you leak oil, at least it's veg.oil. Use it all Summer, no worries. When the saw is running I imagine the temperature gets up a bit. Viscosity of the oil doesn't change appreciably as temp goes up, and even if it does, so what?.

This Summer, know that the oil mist you're putting on the environment is food oil. The oil that gets on your clothing, food oil. When you scrape out your sidecase of sawdust & lubricant and then deposit it on Mrs Jones' lawn, food oil. Next time you spill it down your leg, food oil. Eat a sammich after working on saws, your hands are tainted....food oil. The way oil manages to spread itself around your tool bins, and saw areas, food oil. Accidentally spill it on a driveway, food oil. Treework over children's play areas, food oil. Working near water, ponds, etc, food oil. Working near public places, restaurants, commercial sites, food oil. Anybody on this website, Blaster, work at a ZOO? (everybody)

Food Oil !

At the end of the day, you've gotta face how you feel about. Let me just give you some food for thought. You switch to veggie oil, and imagine the WORST THING that could happen. For our European friends, please share with us the WORST THING thing that <i>has happened</i> using veggie oil.


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## Stumper (Apr 5, 2005)

Jim has been using Veggie exclusively for several years, ditto Tom Dunlap. I have been using it in pruning saws for a few years and just bit the bullet a few months ago and started running it in the big saws too. Yes it gels at low temps but it remains pourable at all temps I've tried and goes back to clear liquid in a warm oil tank. Even without tackifiers my subjective observation is that it actually lubes BETTER than "bar oil".


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

*My goodness...*

[Stumper]<b>Even without tackifiers my subjective observation is that it actually lubes BETTER than "bar oil".</b>[endquote]



THERE IT IS ! Finally THE <u>NEW TRUTH</u> !


You are being nominated for the <b>'Responsible and Honest Statement of the Year'</b> award.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

I could just hug you. See, I've learned that over the course of time, but it's not been possible for me to just come out and say it- <b> Veggie Oil works BETTER than petro oil</b>.

We've been doing it wrong since the birth of the chainsaw. How could it have happened? How could it have gone on this long?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

*My knees are shakin*

Fellow arborists, today we've whacked a grand slam home run for the environment


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

Everyone from Europe and Scandanavia, all together now...



Duhhhhhhh!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

....wait, what...? (OK, I'll announce it)

Official remark is in from Sweden, 

About [email protected] time


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

First heartfelt words from Mother Nature,

"Thank You"


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## John Ellison (Apr 5, 2005)

rustyb said:


> Ben,
> 
> You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers. . So why,...why do "*they have to*" add these things, particularly tac?
> 
> ...


The mist on the skidder might possibly have come from trees.

John


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## bwalker (Apr 5, 2005)

If it is actually works better thats great. I think I will try some today.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 5, 2005)

Originally Posted by rustyb

<b>Ben,

You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers. . So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?</b>

Rusty, it's all cool. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences. Ben has a rich history around industrial apparati whose lubrication is improved by tacifying agents. Ben also sells petroleum based bar oil out of his saw shop, and profits from its distribution.

What we need to solve is how to help Ben Walker win in this. Fact: The price of crude oil is going nowhere, but up, and so will the price of petro bar. There is a dwindling fraction of us that still hold to the necessity of Tack.

OK, I see it clearly. Now, I've not crunched the numbers on this, but it just seems that you could buy a barrel of Canola at a gallon price far below that of a store-bought gallon. Someone find Ben a price.

I'm thinking somewhere around $2.75 a gallon, in bulk, add .25 of tackifier per gallon and sell the tackified Bio Bar for six. Your customers could come in and refill their own jug for 5.

That's numbers and business. I don't want to get hung up on the mechanism because we could come up with dozens of ways to make that work. 

It's about the realization

The realization that it's entirely possible, within everybody's reach, to make a positive ecological change at no cost to you, no adapting anything, no preparation for adopting veggie, no extra added effort. Just pour it in and go about sawing as usual.

it's about the <i>emotional shift</i>, the mutual understanding amongst ourselves that our views and judgements and long-standing beliefs have been sorta messed up. Our assumptions that something was a certain way, and then we find out we been doing it wrong for a long time.....

It can be difficult for some to let go of that. Habits. Conventional thought. The way we've always done it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The US is an oil-dependent nation. It's just part of our industrial makeup to use things petroleum based.

Well, it's time to break free. Sweden has always used veggie oil. For the United States, the hurdle to cross was one of price, and we were not fully informed on the tack issue. 

Well everybody, we've knocked those doors off their hinges. It's NOT more expensive, and you DON"T need tack.


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## bwalker (Apr 5, 2005)

> Ben also sells petroleum based bar oil out of his saw shop, and profits from its distribution.


 i dont own a saw shop and I do not sell anythign other than fishing trips....
BTW as petrol prices rise so will vegatable oil. Have you nay idea of how much petrol it takes to make a gallon of vegi oil? Ill give you a hint. Its enough to make the mfg. of ethanol and bio diesel a losing proposition profit wise.


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## Blowdown1 (Apr 5, 2005)

On another note, the oxidation issue. I wonder if adding a little vitamin E oil would help solve that. E is a strong natural anti-oxidant, and I think I have even heard of using for something along the lines of this somewhere else. Or maybe I'm crazy.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 5, 2005)

Well...it's been a while since I watched this thread. Interesting revelations 

When I moved my shop last year I found that mice had chewed holes in the top of the plastic canola oil jug. they dove in and drowned. What a way to go. What would you want to drown in?

To salvage as much of the oil as possible I took a stick and pulled out the Mousketeers and pitched them into the woods. Maybe the fox will eat them...yummy, marinated...then I put the rest into jugs which were stored in a metal container. When Istarted to use the salvage oil I noticed a bad smell. Instead of popcorn it smelled "off" Must have been mousie. 

So, store the extra oil in a metal container unless you want to loose it to the critters.


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## bwalker (Apr 5, 2005)

Tom, could it be the oil went rancid?


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## rubberducky (Apr 5, 2005)

Hey who asked Tom Dunlap, the "HIPPIE." In a different thread you we just telling a guy not to cut down his trees, and if everyone cut down a tree becuase they didn't want it there there would'nt be any trees. Well you want to know what I think. I think you just go to "Arborsite" becuase you dont have anything to do.


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 5, 2005)

The first jug I used didn't get moused and didn't get rancid or bad smelling. I'm sure that the oil was fine as a lube. The smell got to be a bit much though.


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## mktest (Apr 5, 2005)

Blowdown1 said:


> On another note, the oxidation issue. I wonder if adding a little vitamin E oil would help solve that. E is a strong natural anti-oxidant, and I think I have even heard of using for something along the lines of this somewhere else. Or maybe I'm crazy.



It's been mentioned in another thread on this site, (credit to Tree Machine I think?), oxidation is probably just a problem if you use pure food oil, commercial veggie bar oil has biodegradable anti-oxidants added.

Different veggie oils oxidize in different ways of course, Canola/Rapeseed seems to be quite resistable, while linseed oil will oxidize in days if applied thinly to metal. This is why linseed is used in rust-protection products and paint, it oxidizes and becomes hard and clings to the surface like glue. It gives very good protection, especially if mixed with lead pigments. Lead pigmented paint needs special permits to be used these days I reckon. 

I use linseed oil on tools. Old Bahco spanners and screwdrivers that spend all year round in a tractor looks looks great after I primed them with a thin layer of linseed oil (after a thorough cleaning). They aren't slippery either, as they can be from other oil. Wouldn't want to use it on the chain, but I'd consider using it on bars and parts of the saw made of steel. Boiled linseed oil dries&oxidize faster than raw linseed oil, but raw linseed oil penetrates better into the wood and probably sticks better to iron/steel.


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## Stumper (Apr 5, 2005)

The oxidation issue is mostly a non-issue. On the PowerPruner where I have used Veggie (Both Canola and Soybean oils) for years I have some buildup of oil and dirt from spillage on the top of the tank. Inside the spocket cover it is oily but nothing has hardened-fresh oil acts as a solvent for old oil. On my climbing saw I have no hardened oil anywhere. As far as INSIDE the tank-think about it-the jug of cooking oil can stay in your kitchen cabinet fro months without oxidizing or turning rancid. It is a non-issue in a working saw.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2005)

Thanks again, Stumper. Your personal field-work is showing exactly what mine is. Works inexplicably well.

Tom, you bring up the mouse issue. That's so <i>funny</i> ! I had that happen once in the last three Winters, the Winter before last. The little buggers went at the <i>bottom</i> of my jug. What's weird is, they went at the corners of empty 2-cycle bottles, the black Husqvarna ones. They really seemed to dig that. From what I can gather, they were really bored. 

I learned something about veggie oil that day, is that if the oil is freeze-set, it won't <i>spontaneously</i> flow. This property of bio oil became a positive. None of my mouse-nibbled oil spilled. I'll have to dig out those pictures. That was awhile back.

MK brings up some issues of oxidation. It has come up as part of other responses too. I was planning to address this in a prior bio bar thread, but Tack stepped in and took center-stage. 

There is a bunch of information we haven't even talked about, besides mice and oxidation, but oxidation is one that I was really looking forward to discussing, juicy stuff you guys can all appreciate. 

I am so happy to have thread on track. With the naysayers quenched and the devil's advocates at bay. With the critics quieted and the occasional person who just argues for the sake of argument
 keeping his trap shut, maybe,

just maybe

We can move on without further derailment.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2005)

*So where should we go?*

<b>Pick your direction:</b> oxidation, lipid chemistry, free radical reactions, oxidative kinetics, oil properties, trigycerides, saturation, unsaturartion, free fatty acids, glycerol. Biodiesel as bar lube. We could go triacyglycerol chain length, comparisons between different oil sources, why and how they're different from one another. We could do the freeze-thaw discussion thoroughly, which was where we left off in the prior thread. We could talk antioxidants, tocotrienols, good 'ol alpha-tocopherol, mixed tocopherols, international units, why and how oxidation is easily a non-issue. We could talk about uses for veggie oil in the field, that have nothing to do with your bar-oil tank. I'd like to know more about linseed oil. Then there's the whole ecology economic thing, sustainability, predictable pricing, commodity status, renewability, barrel pricing. Fellow tree huggers, we are <i>just getting started.....</i>

So, can we keep this thread, not about Tack?


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 6, 2005)

> What we need to solve is how to help Ben Walker win in this. Fact: The price of crude oil is going nowhere, but up, and so will the price of petro bar.



Crude oil is no more rare than diamonds are rare. The reason either commodity is expensive is that they are both controlled by cartels which fix the price. Note that such cartels are strictly *illegal* here in the USA. The world has enough proven oil reserves to last for decades to come given both present use and projected growth in use. If we searched for more oil, we would certainly find it, extrapolating from past success. This fact bothers 'environmentalists' so that their current legal fights are to stop further exploration for oil, even though exploration causes no damage to the environment whatsoever.

The current driver in crude oil pricing is the increasing demand by countries and regions who were not big users in the past like China and India. They have basically consumed all the excess so that the world is chasing after the last barrel, like some game of musical chairs. But there is a whole pile of chairs sitting off in the background not put into service which could easily seat all present.

The people profiting most from all of this are the great oil brokers like World Fuels. Conglomerates like this are the actual owners of huge quantities of product, not the oil drilling/refining companies which get so much negative attention. Their job is to explore/recover/refine, not necessarily own.

The government makes far more money per unit on oil than any driller/refiner since the typical taxes are several times the total recovery/refining profit per unit.

*If you would like to see a switch to non-petroleum bar oils for reasons of reduced environmental impact, that's fine and that's what you should focus on. But the 'We Are Running Out Of Oil!!!' misinformation is getting a bit old and so easily disproven that those espousing this tired line risk wasting their credibility.*

Jimbo


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 6, 2005)

> Have you nay idea of how much petrol it takes to make a gallon of vegi oil? Ill give you a hint. Its enough to make the mfg. of ethanol and bio diesel a losing proposition profit wise.



SO often these hidden energy costs are not considered by 'environmentalists' who seem content to merely scratch the surface of these debates; just deep enough to come up with some coercive public policy change which will solve everything. Look at the push for recycling as an example. You should watch the episode of "Penn & Teller's Bull$hit" on recycling for a good and humorous synopsis.

It's no different than the push for electric cars as "zero emissions" vehicles. What a joke! Where do they think the electricity for charging comes from?! Well golly, it has to be produced by generators, mostly diesel powered. And since batteries are a VERY lossy form of storage, far MORE current is required to charge a battery than you can ever get back in ampere/hours upon discharge. This means FAR MORE fuel gets burned per ton/mile than if an engine were located on the vehicle (what a concept!) driving the wheels directly. Don't forget to add the losses for generation and transmission as well. All you get from this scheme is a relocation of the emissions source.

Jimbo


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## mktest (Apr 6, 2005)

The US, Canada and much of northern Europe have enough land to produce a lot more biofuel/oil. That would also reduce the need for foreign oil. 

But yeah, there is no risk of fossile oil running out soon. The price is way higher than the production cost, meaning that there is actually room for producing liquid fossile fuel from coal/other fossile sources if needed. And coal we have in heaps. 

Engines running on diesel or gas are quite inefficient, most of the energy is released as (wasted) heat. If diesel is used in central power plants to produce electricity and the surplus heat is used for warming houses, they are quite efficient. I live in a flat warmed by surplus heat from a plant where they use mainly household garbage for fuel. The plants can have advanced and efficient cleaning systems reducing in less pollution than from a small house oil burner.

Using diesel to produce electricity, heat and hydrogen (for vehicles) would be more efficient than todays internal combustion engines, small systems for heating houses, and also kinder to the environment. No, I don't expect hydrogen combustion chainsaws, that would be impractical I guess 

Biofuel is high-tech, it's sexy, and it's here to stay


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## Stumper (Apr 6, 2005)

Excellent points Jimbo. I made the switch to veggie oil based on .....
1. Veggie should be tess toxic to the plants I work on and around-(No I don't have a specific study but it seems reasonably based upon biology).
2. Veggie probabbly is better for me when aspirated or ingested (it is food grade -bar oil isn't)
3. Veggie oil lubricates better!!!!!!!! (Yes there are studies in molecular bonding, coefficients of friction et al that prove this one. I also discovered it empirically)
4. It flows better through weak oiling systems. (Which is part of lubing better and why I tried it in small saws and eventually learned that #3 is really true and switched to using it in all saws.)
5. Veggie washes out of clothing more easily.

Hey Jim (TreeMachine), We could talk about all that stuff or we could just pour some in our tanks and go to work.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 6, 2005)

*Who'da thunk.... it could be sooo easy?*



Stumper said:


> we could just pour some in our tanks and go to work.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 13, 2005)

For all the guys trying veggie oil in the bar lube tanks, I very much respect the shift. This is not to say I disrespect those using petro oil, not at all. You've hung with the bio oil threads and for whatever reason may not agree, but that's OK. One day you'll run totally out of bar and chain lube and there's gonna be a convenience store nearby. The important point is, you now know that straight veggie oil can be used. 

Whether you choose Wesson or Pennzoil at that moment is up to you. The choice is ultimately yours, and honestly, it affects me not one bit. It's a plus for the environment, your laundry, and possibly your health. I respect that you've read the threads and have, at least, an open mind to using vegetable oil. As the price of petroleum oil, over the next few years, reaches $100 a barrel (and it will....), the days of $4/ gal bar lube are history. Why wait til then? The facts are in. Prove the facts, one direction or the other, for yourself. Buy 2 gal of veg. oil and when you've run that completely through your saws and you've personally assessed the performance, then you will have your own answer.

This is not a stretch at all. It's a shift. There are times in life when a shift can benefit you much. Many times making a shift involves work, or discomfort, or pain or stress or some cost of some kind. Not this time, though. This one's easy and painless and really involves no additional cost. It's just the use of a different liquid, one that is overall less toxic and somewhat less viscous.

For anyone who tries veggie oil for the first time this week, thanks for giving it a whirr. I think you'll sense a better overall <i>feeling</i> about your work environment. That's a double-plus.


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## bwalker (Apr 13, 2005)

> The US, Canada and much of northern Europe have enough land to produce a lot more biofuel/oil. That would also reduce the need for foreign oil.


 Not really. Biodiesel and ethanol production is so inefficant it takes more energy to produce that what it puts out.


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## Crofter (Apr 13, 2005)

A lot of the initial projects to procuce alcohol and other biofuels did use more petroleum energy in than energy out if the fertilizer, fuel for land prep, harvesting, transportation, production etc, are all considered; undoubtedly this could be improved greatly and I am sure that as oil becomes more expensive the alternate fuels will get more attention. Right now it is more attractive for the big money boys to pump oil than it is to do research on alternates. You can be sure tho that they will be well prepared to switch production when the other cash cow dries up. Where there is the will there is a way. Right now it is dino oil that is greasing their skids!


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 13, 2005)

There are other complex layers when considering costs. 

Using bio fuels and bio bar lube keeps agricultural jobs closer to home. Rather than paying larger subsidies [agricultural welfare] the farmers have work to do. Would it be better to buy "cheaper" mineral oil and fuels and have more unemployment?

The costs of defending the seas so that those oil tankers can deliver the goods is artificially accounted for. The costs are on another ledger sheet. 

The environmental costs of petro oil have to be much higher. I don't know this for a fact but it makes sense to me. 

The world of Mad Max and Road Warrier are getting closer every day.


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## Crofter (Apr 13, 2005)

Tom, I agree that there is a very great amount of hidden subsidising of the oil industry. One you pointed out is the protection of shipping. This Iraq thing has to be pretty expensive too and it is more than a little likely just a cost of doing ( oil ) business. The Oil industry is a very powerfull lobby to government, and it is in their interests to have these subsidies hidden. Were the agenda to really promote energy efficiency and curb its use, the scenario of hiding the subsidy would shift dramatically and we would get a better picture of what various energy forms really cost, both in terms of dollars and in environmental degredation. When the powers that be are making money from the production and consumption of energy, they are not very credible leaders in the realm of conservation. Lip service only! The time is not yet ripe.


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## bwalker (Apr 13, 2005)

One word...HYDROGEN!


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 13, 2005)

Crofter said:


> Were the agenda to really promote energy efficiency and curb its use, the scenario of hiding the subsidy would shift dramatically and we would get a better picture of what various energy forms really cost, both in terms of dollars and in environmental degredation.



Bucky Fuller, of geodesic dome fame, said that our wages should be converted to reflect the buying power in energy units. He wrote about this over 60 years ago when energy was plentiful and cheap. He was a true visionary even without the dome part of his portfolio.


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## Pioneer (Apr 13, 2005)

Observations in using Canola on my chainsaw bars so far:

Thinner oil which is pumped through the oiler faster.
Less tack.
Good observed lubrication properties.
Low smell.
Crystalizes at about 5-10 degrees below freezing.
The off the shelf store cooking oil costs less than bar oil (here anyway).
you use more of it so it works out about even.
It will not kill your lawn like regular bar oil will (the reason I originally tried it).

I would avoid using it in really cold weather unless I knew for sure it would not freeze up in the saw, but other than that there seems to be no drawbacks to using it. If was cutting in an area where I was concerned about environmental impact I would definitely use it. You can drink the stuff, try that with regular bar oil. 

Lewis B, I was the one who posted last fall using Canola oil for pre-mixing in gas on the SamlarForum. So far I have used it in a junk weedwacker and chainsaw at 50-1. No problems so far except that it has a very high burn-off temperature and has a tendency to leave the muffler wet if you are using a weedwacker at anything less than full throttle. The saw works harder and burns it off better. 
The interiors of the engines after a couple months use show parts bright and perfect. I am concerned about varnish buildup though, this is a problem with Castor Bean oil and they both share similar properties.

I will let everybody know what the results are this fall with pictures of the torn down engines.


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## bwalker (Apr 13, 2005)

> Lewis B, I was the one who posted last fall using Canola oil for pre-mixing in gas on the SamlarForum. So far I have used it in a junk weedwacker and chainsaw at 50-1. No problems so far except that it has a very high burn-off temperature and has a tendency to leave the muffler wet if you are using a weedwacker at anything less than full throttle. The saw works harder and burns it off better.


 YIKES!


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## 2Coilinveins (Apr 13, 2005)

Ugh, what's vegi oil burnt in a 2 stroke SMELL like?


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 13, 2005)

Cooking oils all degrade rapidly (read that BURN) below 400F. Is that something you really want lubricating cylinder walls and bearings? The degredation by-products can create sludges and resins which are insoluble in gasoline (or any other common solvent I have tried). Again, do you really want that kind of thing in an expensive chainsaw? I've pulled a few perfectly good weedwackers out of the trash. Consumer weedwackers are fine for fooling around with cause they aint worth much, but not any motor you actually value. Just my HO

Jimbo


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## Pioneer (Apr 13, 2005)

Smells something like when you use it for cooking but with the burnt gas stink added. Not nearly as bad as regular 2-stroke oil. I hear peanut oil through a weedwacker smells like you're cooking popcorn!

The stuff mixes instantly, and has not settled out in a container left sitting all winter, but then again most oils would be OK. 

I decided to try it in some equipment that cost me nothing after I did some research and found out it is very similar to Castor oil. So far it works as well in the gas as it does on the bars. A side benefit to only have to carry one oil with your saw. 

Of course I'm trying it on the JUNK first, this is pretty much out of curiosity than trying to prove anything......


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## whatsnext (Apr 13, 2005)

I tried canola at 32-1 in my beater Lawn Boy when this thread started and it ran fine. All you could smell was the cut grass. I thought I'd run it for a while to see what happens and then talk about it. I'll make a point of using it all summer in the mower. Good job Pioneer, I guess I'm not the only mad scientist here!
John.....


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## Pioneer (Apr 13, 2005)

Nice to see somebody else who trys it BEFORE they draw conclusions. Thats the only way to find out for sure if it works. 

Thanks John.


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## Pioneer (Apr 13, 2005)

Another conclusion drawn by observation and not speculation, Canola does not burn off easily.
The attached pictures are of a test done to Canola to see if it can stand some moderately high temps. The first picture is of the gauge sitting in boiling water to verify it's zero, the second is trying to light up the oil at 500 degrees F. At this point is was barely showing the first wisps of something, obviously not enough to light with an open flame. This was done with used cooking oil, the fresh stuff is even better.

For the curious, this is a lead thermometer used in making cast bullets. The oil is actually hot enough to melt Linotype lead. I'm going to have to try some 2-stroke oils next to see how they stack up...........


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

Pioneer said:


> Nice to see somebody else who trys it BEFORE they draw conclusions. Thats the only way to find out for sure if it works.





bwalker said:


> One word...HYDROGEN!


How's the hydrogen working out for you, Ben? How is this fitting in with chainsaws?, Just curious. Can you share with us a little on electrolysis? You seem to have a concern on input energy vs energy made available, so I would think the energy cost of electrolytic cracking would throw up a big, red flag, aside from the energy to compress the gas and the energy to cool it to way below sub-freezing temperatures. Then the energy to transport it. Then there's the sheer explosiveness of the stuff, like, remember the Hindenberg?


bwalker said:


> One word...HYDROGEN!


Can you give us more than one word?

Actually, mebbe we should stay on track with vegetable oils for bar lube.


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## mktest (Apr 14, 2005)

Pioneer said:


> For the curious, this is a lead thermometer used in making cast bullets. The oil is actually hot enough to melt Linotype lead. I'm going to have to try some 2-stroke oils next to see how they stack up...........


Coool, while at it, sunflower oil also seems to be a viable chainlube oil, or twostroke oil, could you try that too for temperature? It rocks when making french fries btw...  I just tried sunflower oil on my bike. Yes, that chain won't be stressed like chains on saws, but I reckon it will give just as good rust protection as greasy petroleum oil. (I haven't tried sunflower oil in saws though, I don't know how it oxidate and stuff)


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

You may notice oxidation on your bike chain as it is open to oxygen in the air. It's a thin layer, completely exposed and doesn't enjoy the 'flushing' effect that a chainsaw system does.

Veggie oil as 2-cycle.... I'm not going to pass judgement on that, but at the same time I can't endorse it, simply because I haven't personally tried it. I'll keep an open mind, however. Thanks for the info that it is feasable.

The physical properties of these oils can be looked up in <i>The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics</i>, which is not exactly a handbook. It's more like a small, heavy suitcase. The point at which the heat is high enough for the oil to burst into flame is called the 'flash-point'. I would think the lower flashpoint oils would work best as 2-cycle, but this is an assumption on my part, not a verified fact.


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2005)

Tree machine, Tom and Crofter where talking about alternative energy hence the Hydrogen comment. As far as how to produce it. Nuclear fusion reactors of course. The technology already exists to store the stuff safely inside a vehicle.
As far as pure vegi oil for a two cycle goes. Very bad. The flash and end point are way to high for pure veggi oil, there are no anti wear additives in pure vegi oil, the are are no detergents in pure vegi oil(which would be needed in spades with any veggi based oil), the viscosity index is wrong and the viscosity is wrong. Veggi based oil have been tried in the past(castor,rape) and they didnt work so hot. The had excellant film strength but deposist and corrosion protection where a serious issue. Besdies some of todays ester based two cycle oils would likely bio degrade faster than vegi oil.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

Biodegradability in 2-cycle oil is sort of a non-issue (it's being combusted). We're not spraying gallons of 2-cycle around in the environment. 

Thanks for the input on vegg-not-a-good-sub for 2-cycle. Sounds like you have read stuff on this, as by the sound of things, you probably wouldn't have actually tried it. Can you link us to the material? That contribution would be much appreciated.

What's 'end point'?


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2005)

End pint is the temp at which the oil totaly combusts. Flash point is the temp at which it begins to give off combustable vapours. I would not be supprised to see the endpoint of a vegatable based oil being as high as 800 degrees.
And biodegradability is a major issue with two cycle oils. especially marine oils as they discharge the exhaust directly into the water. Alot of the oil put into a two cycle gets expelled onto the ground as unburnt HC hence biodegradability is a issue. 
I have aread a ton of stuff on rape and castor oils, but AI havent saved any of it. Google it and see what you find. to give you some background castor oil stopped being used for the most part in the 60's. Some two cycles still used it after, and in fact still use it today, but its sorta rare. Maxima, Silkolene, klotz and Blendzall still sell the stuff.


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## bvaught (Apr 14, 2005)

Veggie oil does not contain the anti-wear additives that bar oil contains. Such as Molybdenum, Zinc, and Phosporus. These additives are your greatest defence against metal to metal contact and help prevent scuffing.


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## 2Coilinveins (Apr 14, 2005)

*Typo?*



bvaught said:


> Veggie oil does not contain the anti-wear additives that bar oil contains. Such as Molybdenum, Zinc, and Phosporus. These additives are your greatest defence against metal to metal contact and help prevent scuffing.



Bvaught, did you mean "two stroke oil" or maybe even "motor oil" and not "bar oil" in the above statement?


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2005)

Bar oil does not contain any zinc, phosphorus or moly. Its basicly a straight 30wt with a polymer based tac additive.


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## spacemule (Apr 14, 2005)

Ben, the quality of your posts has improved dramatically lately. You're not nearly as sarcastic, and you're supporting your views.


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## bvaught (Apr 14, 2005)

I stand by my post that bar oil (stihl brand in this case, probably others too) contains anti wear additives such as moly, phosporus, and zinc.


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 14, 2005)

bwalker said:


> Bar oil does not contain any zinc, phosphorus or moly. Its basicly a straight 30wt with a polymer based tac additive.



This is the fourth time Ben has pointed out this fact in this thread, yet the contrary keeps popping up. Please read the past posts in the thread, people!  

Ben, castor is kind of a special case when it comes to bio oils . It has some unique properties like 'platelet lubrication' that no other oils, including petro and synth duplicate. That is why it persists as a two stroke lube for some apps.

There aint no free lunch as castor is highly toxic, poisonous really. It is also famous for leaving carbon deposits in gasoline powered two strokes.

Whatever happened to jojoba? Remember back in the seventies whan that was going to be the next great thing?

Jimbo


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## klickitatsacket (Apr 14, 2005)

here is the link for the MSDS on Stihl bar oilhttp://www.stihllibrary.com/pdf/msds/MSDS%20STIHL%20Bar%20&%20Chain%20Lube.pdf


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 14, 2005)

Well golly, no zinc, phosphorus or molybdenum! Who'da thunk it!  But seriously, those additives are most useful in extending the useful life of an oil. They continue lubricating even after some of the lipid molecules have begun to de-polymerize into shorter chains. Since the working life of bar oil is maybe a few seconds at most why bother? Add to that the toxicity and probability of exposure and potential liability therefrom...

Jimbo


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 14, 2005)

I remember now. Castor beans are where they derive the poison ricin.

Jimbo


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## jimbo1490 (Apr 14, 2005)

Looked around at various MSD sheets for B&C oil, same story; NO hazardous chemicals. I picked up on something looking at these sheets: all mentioned OSHA certification as carcinogen-free. Apparently B&C oil comes under the purview of OSHA, so you're definitely not going to see any toxic additives.

Jimbo


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## bwalker (Apr 14, 2005)

ZDDP is the source of the zinc and phosphourus found in motor oils. Its a multi purpose additive in that it provides anti wear, anti oxident and a few other functions. Moly is a antiwear additive that also doubles as a friction modifier.
Neither of these too would be of use in a bar and chain lube and to the contary are quit toxic.


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## tricky coyote (Dec 20, 2005)

*Free, re-used vegetable oil for bar oil*

As you may know, you can power any diesel engine on vegetable oil. Google "straight vegetable oil" or see a site like www.greasecar.com.

We power our diesels on re-used vegetable oil that we collect for free from the back of restaurants and then let settle and/or run through a filter.

I imagine that this oil could also be used as bar oil.

Not completely sure of the relevance, but in engine wear tests, vegetable oil has been demonstated to have better lubricity than diesel. May be apples to oranges.

Japanese restaurants are best. Avoid places that cook lots of meat as lard is not generally liquid at operating temp, and it stinks.


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## Railomatic (Dec 20, 2005)

*Vegi oil*

I have tried various vegi oils for my saws and found some of them to be troublesome, as they tend to set rock solid after a while, they work fine when they are straight out of the bottle, but if left for several days, they start to gum everything up, and a nightmare to clean up afterwards.
I have found that Dolmar chain oil is one of the best.

Davy, new member from the UK.


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## rustyb (Dec 20, 2005)

Hey Davy,

Just curious which vegi oils you have had problems with? One of my four saws that I use canola oil in has been used less than an hour since this spring. No problem at all. The oil is just as it left the container this spring.

r


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## treesurgeon (Dec 26, 2005)

i will start using canola oil in my ms200t. i will run it from now on. and if it works out then so be it. i will expand to other saws. 
theres no reason to listen to all of you and draw conclusions on what anyone should do. it seems better for the people that are interested to try it them selves and see if they are happy with it. i will post in the following months about how the saw is doing. I'm sure we will hear much more from others till then.


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## SRT-Tech (Nov 19, 2006)

jimbo1490 said:


> There aint no free lunch as *castor is highly toxic, poisonous really*. It is also famous for leaving carbon deposits in gasoline powered two strokes.Jimbo




and yet doctors administer it in HIGH doses for some patients.........



back on topic to veggie oil, seeing as how a 5 gallon pail of the stuff is pretty pricy (prices have shot up recently) ($80 cdn Costco), and around $60 - 90 elsewhere here in Vancouver BC, i'm switching back to reg bar oil. for the price of three 5 gallon pails of veggie oil, i can get a whopping 55 gallon drum of bar oil.


sorry, but i'm not rich. bar oil it is.


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## Sprig (Nov 19, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> and yet doctors administer it in HIGH doses for some patients.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gah, a step backwards in time imo> please refer back to the veggi oil thread. I suggest you shop around for the veggi oils, considering we pay around a buck a litre for the stuff on sale I think you're shopping the wrong places. Cheap bar oil here, over 2.00 a ltre, veggi stuff, 1.00-1.37 per, find da sales mate. Someone on the veg oil poll forum mentioned using old fryer oils, I see nothing to sway one away from that other than a wee bit of work.
My 0.02$ worth fer da day.
GO LIONS GO!!!!!!!!! 6-0 Vancouver YAY!!!!!!! :beer:

GO LIONS GO!!!!! :rockn: :rockn: :rockn:


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## SRT-Tech (Nov 19, 2006)

yea!!! GO LIONS GO~!!!!!! helluva game eh!!!!!!


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## Tzed250 (Nov 19, 2006)

*Beans, seeds, etc.*

I have used castor oil and castor fortified oil in my bikes and saws for some time now. I like the way it lubricates and especially the way it smells in the exhaust. It may not be the absolute best, but it does well for me. As far as deposits go, my top ends have always been serviced enough that that is not an issue. 

I will be switching to canola for bar/chain lube. I have never liked the accumulated bar oil on my saws/clothes/gear, and if it is vegi based I will find it much more acceptable.

A couple of questions:

1.) Has anyone seen any oil pump problems arise from its use?

2.) What is the price of the Stihl Bioplus oil in the USA vs. Europe?


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## Sprig (Nov 19, 2006)

Tzed250 said:


> I have used castor oil and castor fortified oil in my bikes and saws for some time now. I like the way it lubricates and especially the way it smells in the exhaust. It may not be the absolute best, but it does well for me. As far as deposits go, my top ends have always been serviced enough that that is not an issue.
> 
> I will be switching to canola for bar/chain lube. I have never liked the accumulated bar oil on my saws/clothes/gear, and if it is vegi based I will find it much more acceptable.
> 
> ...



No.

Too much imho.


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## treesurgeon (Nov 20, 2006)

Tzed250 said:


> I have used castor oil and castor fortified oil in my bikes and saws for some time now. I like the way it lubricates and especially the way it smells in the exhaust. It may not be the absolute best, but it does well for me. As far as deposits go, my top ends have always been serviced enough that that is not an issue.
> 
> I will be switching to canola for bar/chain lube. I have never liked the accumulated bar oil on my saws/clothes/gear, and if it is vegi based I will find it much more acceptable.
> 
> ...



1. canola oil does not seem to clog up or cause any problems with oil pumps.
2. stihl bioplus at my dealer is going for $20.00 per gallon.


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## vernalis (Mar 9, 2009)

*Wast veg bar oil*

I smell like the stuff already, so why not..... revive an old post.

I've been running waste fryer oil in a dirty application saw without major issue given the lack of tack. It (canola) does eat at (some) plastic so if a saw were to set for a long while you might use it up/drain/blend with dino. It can also go rancid if there's water lying about but most of that is settled out and the fats removed in cold filtering. 

I would like to use it in primary saws 'cause I just hate to leave the stains lying about the landscape especially in wetted areas where I do watercourse alteration such as bridges and bench cuts. And the New Brunswick fell'er in the other post about adding tack who was talking about skidders, porters (and of interest "circle" and 'shadow' cuts - I wonder if the circle cut is synonymous with patch cutting?) would probably attest to the lack of availability of the veg oil stuff even if anyone could afford to try it. Most regular workers in my neck of the woods continue to use dirty stuff. I'd be pleased to be able to offer a cost competitive alternative to waste motor oil for the bar and chain.

So I've been batting about the question of how to add tack to the WVO and am happy to have found these threads. I would love to find some household OTS kind of thing locally for the tack.. Some suggestions were Algin from seeweed (actually an emulsifier), corn starch..., pectin... tried that; no misc., horse hooves, glue... but so far just batting it about. Learning that there's tack made for plant oils is cool. But I bet the same stuff that goes into dino bar oil would do the trick. Any thoughts as to the availability of other tack products that might work??


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## rustyb (Mar 10, 2009)

vernalis said:


> I smell like the stuff already, so why not..... revive an old post.
> 
> I've been running waste fryer oil in a dirty application saw without major issue given the lack of tack. It (canola) does eat at (some) plastic so if a saw were to set for a long while you might use it up/drain/blend with dino. It can also go rancid if there's water lying about but most of that is settled out and the fats removed in cold filtering.
> 
> ...



Hi,

I'm not certain I fully understand your post but why even worry about tack? You haven't had any problems without and that's the case with a number of people, including myself (I run straight vegi oil in all 4 of my saws w/ nary a issue).

Adding something that isn't needed just seems like an unnecessary step and expense...not to mention the potential health implications...personal & planetary. Does anyone even know what "tack" is? Has its ecological affects been scientifically studied? How about dermal absorption and inhalation?


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## stipes (Mar 10, 2009)

*My winter mix...*

Been using 50/50 Stihl bar oil,,and canola oil...Seems to work out good for me,,and it does blend together if you mix it well.......Alot easyer on the oiler during the cold days,,but I wouldnt use it in a day in the 50's and above....Oh,,the viscosity with the canola dont thickin or get cloudy in freezing weather....Been workin good for me so far.......


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## cord arrow (Mar 10, 2009)

She said Dad's the one I love the most...with Stipes not far behind...

Any, haven't read the whole thread but I'm going to try some of *THIS*.


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## Zackman1801 (Mar 10, 2009)

i dont get why people keep saying that the vegtable oil dont work, i mean if someone is saying they used it for 3-4 years and it has the exact same effects as using regular oil, then how can it be bad? Just because it does not have the same composition does not mean it wont work.


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## rustyb (Mar 10, 2009)

Zackman1801 said:


> i dont get why people keep saying that the vegtable oil dont work, i mean if someone is saying they used it for 3-4 years and it has the exact same effects as using regular oil, then how can it be bad? Just because it does not have the same composition does not mean it wont work.




The short answer is tradition or a locked-in conservative mindset :monkey: . Many people, regardless of logic or scientific evidence, just simply refuse to change their habits. They want familiarity and what the marketing people tell them they "need". It's a strange psychological phenomenon that occurs in all facets of life.


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## 2dogs (Mar 10, 2009)

cord arrow said:


> She said Dad's the one I love the most...with Stipes not far behind...
> 
> Any, haven't read the whole thread but I'm going to try some of *THIS*.



Bailey's has Arborol. I asked Gregg a question about it in Bailey's forum.


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## vernalis (Mar 10, 2009)

*Dirty pants*

Uh, the smell lingers on you when you filter a lot of the stuff. 

I don't want it to fling off like crazy even if it is biodegradable and a waste resource  that's why I wanna add tack. I found it got on my pants a LOT. When I'm in eco-sensitive Nova Scotia I'll see if the shops carry the bio ready made oil and may be blend it. Try $35CAD a gallon on for size. Any hosers know cheep bio bar oil manufacturers?

Click on the 'here' link to see the thread on adding tack.
V

<may be it sticks better when it's fresh out da bottle>


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## treesurgeon (Mar 10, 2009)

*canola oil*

still using canola oil. in all the saws except the larger saws. tends to dry up in some types of woods with the larger saws but not in any of the small ones. 
another plus, its cheaper than most bar oil.


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## computeruser (Mar 10, 2009)

This may be the solution that y'all are looking for - it is water based to keep our environment from turning to crap and it uses a thick gel formula for lasting lubrication that stays where needed, just like the Stihl stuff with the tackifier. Suitable for all uses including carving, limbing, and general bucking, but particularly well suited for felling and butt end work.


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## GASoline71 (Mar 10, 2009)

rustyb said:


> The short answer is tradition or a locked-in conservative mindset :monkey: . Many people, regardless of logic or scientific evidence, just simply refuse to change their habits. They want familiarity and what the marketing people tell them they "need". It's a strange psychological phenomenon that occurs in all facets of life.



LMAO... 

Now that's funny right there... 

Gary


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## job247 (Mar 11, 2009)

I take it computeruser is a little "anal" about what he uses for bar and chain lube...sorry..had to say it. I was wondering about lighter oils having more sling off than regular bar and chain oil. I have never used anything other than regular chainsaw oil.


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## rustyb (Mar 11, 2009)

job247 said:


> I take it computeruser is a little "anal" about what he uses for bar and chain lube...sorry..had to say it. I was wondering about lighter oils having more sling off than regular bar and chain oil. I have never used anything other than regular chainsaw oil.



All oils, tack or not, sling off. If they didn't, think how heavy your saw would get after a few hours of cutting. Where do people think the bar oil goes after it disappears from the saws oil tank? It sure doesn't stick around or the saw would become this heavy unrecognizable glob of oil.

It has been four yrs since I started this thread. In that time, I have not used anything but straight vegi oils in all four of my saws. Besides that personal experience and not experiencing ANY of the so-called issues, I have given this a lot of thought and conversed with others who have used straight vegi oil far longer than I have and in professional day in and day out settings...with the same positive results as me. That said, and I know I'm not going to win any popularity contests for saying this here....but, I believe those still using the specialty bar oils, including the bio stuff, are just simply being hoodwinked and are having their wallets unnecessarily vacuumed by the marketeers. 

Besides that, straight vegi oils have scientifically been proven to be healthier (than petrol based oils) for both the user and the eco-system. Adding all this up, what more do people need/want?

In reality though, there will always be those unwilling to change their minds for the simple fact they do not want to be associated in any way with a movement that could be perceived as being enviro, green or whatever one wishes to call it. That stuff's for sissies, gays and/or liberals... and by damned, they're much too tough for that regardless of logic or science. :monkey:


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## job247 (Mar 11, 2009)

Well Rusty, it sounds like you have proven vegtable oil works just fine. Looks like I will be trying it in the near future also as it will definately save some money and being environmentally friendly dosent hurt either. It just irritates me how some are pushing their so called environmentally crap just to make money when it really isnt environmentally friendly at all. Although your idea is a sound and proven idea and is environmentally friendly at that so I applaud you for letting others know it works. Thanks!


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## rustyb (Mar 11, 2009)

job247 said:


> Well Rusty, it sounds like you have proven vegtable oil works just fine. Looks like I will be trying it in the near future also as it will definately save some money and being environmentally friendly dosent hurt either. It just irritates me how some are pushing their so called environmentally crap just to make money when it really isnt environmentally friendly at all. Although your idea is a sound and proven idea and is environmentally friendly at that so I applaud you for letting others know it works. Thanks!



Thank you. But it really isn't just me who has proven that straight vegi oils work. I got the idea from the poster Tree Machine on this forum. Tom Dunlap and others here have also used it with success. Also, for what it's worth, from what I have been reading, more and more carvers are using straight vegi oil as well...and with success.

Just remember this. This (& many other things) isn't just an environmental thing. Yes, straight vegi oils are healthier for the environment but they are healthier for the user too...in terms of misting inhalation and dermal absorption. I can post links to studies if I didn't already some where in this long thread. It's been a while.


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## job247 (Mar 11, 2009)

I went back and read some other threads from other people and it sounds like veggie oil is catching on quite rapidly. I see your point in that it is healthier as far as breathing and getting it on exposed skin. I cant wait to try it myself. Looks like it is veggie oil for me!


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## Tree Machine (Mar 11, 2009)

job247 said:


> Well Rusty, it sounds like you have proven vegtable oil works just fine. Looks like I will be trying it in the near future also as it will definately save some money and being environmentally friendly dosent hurt either. It just irritates me how some are pushing their so called environmentally crap just to make money when it really isnt environmentally friendly at all.


Trying it yourself is how you really know.


Rusty said:


> Thank you. But it really isn't just me who has proven that straight vegi oils work. I got the idea from the poster Tree Machine on this forum.


 And that genius of an idea came from my wife, Elizabeth. Poor girl has asthma, and environmental sensitivities, and I'm a treeguy. See the obvious problem? She asked me point-blank one day, "Why don't you just use vegetable oil?" I'm like, "ya can't..... it's gotta have tack in it."

She's relentless. "Tack..... what for?"
"It makes the oil sticky."
"So you need this bar oil to be sticky"
"Yah."
"I thought it needed to be _slippery_."
"Yah."
"Sticky _and_ slippery."
"Yah."
"That makes _no_ sense to me?"
"Yahh?"
"I understand why you need it slippery, buy why sticky?"
"It stays on the bar better."
"If it's sticky?"
"Yah."
"It stays on the bar better if it has tack in it and it's sticky."
"Yah."
"Sticky, but slippery."
"Yah."
"But don't you fill-up a tank of this sticky oil every time you fill up with gas?"
"Yah."
"So _more_ of it stays on the chain if it has tack in it."
"Yah."
"Hmmm."


"You're not satisfied with that answer, are you."


"Only because it makes no frickin sense, _*at all*_. If more of it stays on the chain, _where_ on the chain does it stay?"

"Well, since you put it that way...."

"Where does it go, Mr Tree Expert husband, Huh? Where does the oil go?"

"Uhhh, mmm..."

"I'll tell you where it goes, it goes flying off the bar while you're using it and out into the environment. The rest is on your frickin pants and stinks up my laundry room and its all on your saws and tools and it smells like an oil refinery around here and it makes me not want to be nice to you, if you know what I mean."

"awww baby, what can I do?"

"TRY THE GOL DANG FRICKIN CANOLA OIL!"


Then she really started attacking the whole industry, based on her one tank in=one tank out fact, like they've brainwashed us treeguys into using toxic crap in our saws for _their_ benefit, and how big oil is controlling the saw manufacturers to _say_ that petro oil with tack is necessary, and that they put tack in it just so you won't just use 10-W40 motor oil.

She was on a rant, guys;

"So have you ever thought they might be taking the crappiest, low-grade, bottom-of-the-barrel petroleum crap oil, then they add _stickiness_ to it and sell it _to you_? By making everyone think tack is necessary, they have a consistent market for their sub-grade nasty. 
And you guys believe this???"

"Baby,...its like..."

"SHEEP! You're all a bunch of frickin ShEEP!"

"Uh, darlin..........

"Do you love me, boy.....?"


"Yahhhhhh."


She pointed out some indisputable things, in and amongst the conspiracy theory. Really had their balls over the barbeque, if ya know what I mean.
It made me think, "OK, well, why not?" Actually it was seeming like I had everything to lose if I didn't change.


So that was 7 years ago. Dunlap and others knew this long before me.


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## JONSEREDFAN6069 (Mar 11, 2009)

i tried it on one of my cheap bars and it seemed to fly off the chain and i had more oil on me than on the bar. so i turned down the oiler from 3 to 2 same thing, went down to 1 same thing only a little less so i figured what the hey
lets give it a whirl. ended up smoking the bar i know it's only a $60 dollar 20" power match but...... i'm not gonna use it on my cannon or gb, i'm gonna stick with my regular old tacky summer grade bar oil. at least i tried it.


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## brinkwolf (Mar 11, 2009)

Here we go again.:monkey:


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## Lewis Brander (Mar 11, 2009)

*Oil companies, 200 MPG carburetor.*

Hello Tree Machine. Yes, Sheep is what we all are, especially if you believe all that the oil companies want us to believe. Ever heard of a 200 MPG Pogue Carburetor designed in 1936? There have been others made in the 40's and 60's, but what happens is the Automotive or the Oil companies buy them up (the designs and patents) and shelve them, from public view and they are never hear of again. Heard where one fellow made a carb that worded well, thought of porducing it on his own. This annoyed the oil companies, so they changed the gas formulation so the gas put through them would ruin those carburetors if they were ever made and put on a car. Apparently the added lead they put in would ruin or cause the carb to have to be cleaned often. 

We are at least 40 years behind the times. Fuel cells should have been developed and already in use on today's cars, but NO the oil companies that control the government along with other lobbyist wanted to make the big buck. Well, they did and where has it gotten us. Look at the mess we're in today. They can put a man on the Moon, put craft on Mars, etc and we still blindly drive outdated cars, pay for and put up with the same crap that we have been handed over and over again. Hell, in the begining, when people talked about going Green, others just laughed at them, now people aren't laughing so much are they. I'm no tree hugger, but with all this so called technology, we and the world should be better off than we are today. Bush wanted to build a maned spaceship to go to Mars (I call it Bushes Folly) and I suppose there are those who supported that idea (lots of graft to be made form that project), same with the so called bail out. It would be better to take the money and put people to work designing, developing and building any project that would get us off our foreign dependency of oil. They want $100.00/barrel for oil, well then charge them $100.00/bushel of grain. Problem is that any new developments in technology made usually are made for military use first and gets handed down to the public from there. Billions and billions of dollars have gone to develop military stuff in the name of the goverment and freedom, but that will eventually change. We're going to end up like the Russians with a economy meltdown and then the Russians and the Chinese can laugh at us. Change is needed, now to do it is up to each and every one of us, if changing from bio oil to vegi oil for bar use is one way then do it. It's about time people started using more common sense, did some thinking for themselves and start pushing for more changes to be made. I could keep rambling on, but enough said here. Take care. Lewis Brander.


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## 2dogs (Mar 11, 2009)

There's a topic swing for ya.


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## Lewis Brander (Mar 11, 2009)

*Sheep, are we all Friken sheep:*

Not making any more comments. Why bother.


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## JONSEREDFAN6069 (Mar 11, 2009)

Lewis Brander said:


> Not making any more comments. Why bother.



dont stop commenting lewis. your's was imformative just in the wrong thread. 
this thread was about veggie bar oil. i have heard of those carb's too.


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## Lewis Brander (Mar 11, 2009)

*Ok, vegi bar oil:*

Well, in most of the old saws I have they called for 30w oil to be used as bar oil. I've used the regular bar oil in some of these old saws, but it has to be warmed up or used in warm weathe to flow correctly, even if i open up the oil flow adjusters. The problem with some of the newer saws is that the chain speed is much higher, so maybe oil with a bit of tack in it is better. But for old saws with gear drives and 1/2" chain or older saws with Reed valves that run at lower RPM's the vegi oil would definately work. I've used the vegi oil in some of the older saws and it seems to work just fine with no ill effects. This was pure vegi oil from the grocery store, not the so called fast food oils that have hamburger drippings and frence fry salt in it. Can't see where that would help to lube a bar, don't need to worry about the stuff gelling up in the oil tanks and the salt corroding the saw. Most of the old saws run between 4.000 to 6,500 RPMs, so you can imagine what the chain speed are. The newest saw I have runs at 8,500 RPM, have ported the muffler, readjusted the carb, so it may run a bit higher rpm. but I have used the vegi oil in it. It also has a sprocket tipped bar and have seen no problems with bar/chain wear or problems with the sprocket nose bar,all components appear to be wet or lubricated with the vegi oil. Course I must admit that I don't heat with wood and thse saws don't get used that often. but have used them at my brothers home to cut 18" to 20" Beech and didn't notice any problems with chains or bars ever overheating. Requested some of that Oregon water soluable oil months ago, but haven't gotten a reply from them as yet, not really crazy about using antifreeze in that oil to prevent it from frezing up in cold temps. All I can say is to each his own. If it works for you then go for it. If not go to plan B. Take care. Lewis.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 11, 2009)

Actually, further to what Tree Machine has said re his wifes comments on needing tackifiers, a tribologist (that's the official term for one who designs and blends oils) on another board reckons most all bar oils have miles too much.


The stuff he used to blend was a PAO/synthetic ester/bio-ester, AW/EP additives with a little tackifier. Yep, we are talking a synthetic bar oil :jawdrop:

He was blending it so it'd flow in your cold winters but still be the right viscosity in summer. (it had a very good VI) 
Most bar oils are just a Group I oil (very basic, lightly refined, very cheap mineral) with a few AW/EP adds and tackifier.
FWIW, he just buys Dolmar oil from his local dealer these days.


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## ray benson (Mar 11, 2009)

This will be the start of my third year using canola oil in my saws. I empty out the canola and run bar oil at the end of the cutting season. No trouble yet and a half used bottle has been in the garage since last spring. It looks just like fresh stuff.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 12, 2009)

JONSEREDFAN6069 said:


> ended up smoking the bar i know it's only a $60 dollar 20" power match but.....





brinkwolf said:


> Here we go again.



Yes, because veggie doesn't kill bars; bad oilers kill bars. Abusive and / or extended use of the saw kills bars......... you know I gotta say it..... running dull chain. What else. Hitting dirt, packing sawdust in the bar's guide-rail and never cleaning it out. And time in

These things,


. every body



are what kills bars. Bars are consumable, they're going to wear out over time, regardless of veggie or bar oil or tack.


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## Randy88 (Mar 14, 2009)

Some are mixing canola with gas and running it in the saws engine???? I'm not real sure but that might void the warrenty on my new stihl saws not? Given the fact that the last I knew 2 stroke oil wasn't regulated like four stroke oil thats why most manufacturers recommend you use thier oil in mixing when burned in their product or it voids the warrenty. As for the bar oil veggi debate I've never asked about how that affects the warrenty but I'll probably wait until some independant testing has been done by some university trials because I'm waiting for them to perfect the soyoil product to be run in hydraulics and as of yet it hasn't been going too good for the manufacturers. The last time I asked several oil suppliers about chain oil they told me it wasn't a very high quality product in terms of lube quality and basically most oil would suffice of any grade or quality as long as it was clean and the only special additive was tacifiers. He went on to tell me that when an oil wasn't good enough to be used for anything else or something went wrong with a batch and didn't meet quality specs bar oil was about all it was good for, the additives package that are in it depended on what type oil it was that didn't meet quality spec at the time it was dumped into saw oil and not very many batches were the same. There is no regulation for quality on any jug of any chain oil by any manufacturer that I've ever seen that states it meets a certain refining standard or military spec or API spec that all gas and diesel oils have to meet by law in order to be sold. So if it feels good, sounds good and gives a warm fuzzy feeling I'd say go for it. As for the used oil debate do you ever wonder why bar oil is so cheap at some of the chains, some years back some of the recyclers were using used engine oil taking it in cleaning it and recycling it and whola you have bar oil, non grade specific, quality specific and just add some addatives and rejug it and on the shelves it went because it was unregulated. Oil never loses it lube ability it just collects dirt and contaminants and once the junk is removed you have clean oil ready to use again. This is info gained from oil suppliers that I have used for years so if its wrong shoot them not me.


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## paniner (Mar 14, 2009)

*vegetable oil?*

I'm with the guy who's used motor oil all his life with no ill effects... and it's free, if you change your own oil. I use a screened funnel to put it in the container- just in case- but it's been screened through a pretty fine filter on the car. Bar oil has additives, but so does my car oil- i use semi-synthetic and sometimes a product like STP. Been workin for 50 years- and I think the bar oil is for people who think they HAVE to wear special clothes when they ride a bike, etc.


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## brucew44guns (Mar 14, 2009)

*bar oil*

With my retirement funds sinking, the spectre of an attack somewhere in the US still a possibility from our enemies, I have a real hard time worrying too much about bar oil. I have always made my own.
I'm in the lube oil business, Conoco and Chevron products. I use "Way Oil", an oil used to lubricate the WAYS on a milling machine, lathe, or CNC machine. I mix about half and half 20 wt and 50 wt for summer use, and straight 20 weight for winter. These are ISO grades 68 (20) and 220 (50 wt). These oils are fantastic to save wear and tear, and they do have a bit of tackiness, not severe though. If you live by a Chevron distributor, it's called Vistac/Way Oil 68 and 220. Invest in a pail of each, you will live a long time before you run out. Conoco's is called "Multi-Way Machine Oil 68 or 220). Fantastic, never had a bug or mouse complain that I was messing up his home.


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## Randy88 (Mar 14, 2009)

I've seen the oil after they get done " recycling " and it looks like any new oil out of the jug as clean as can be once the gunk is all removed and on the side of the recycled oil jug is said "recycled" I always figured it meant the jug and my oil supplier told me one day when he saw it sitting there it meant the oil so I asked where I got it from and they said yea its the oil not the jug. I don't know if you own much equipment but now a lot of companies are going to refiltering the oil rather than replacing the oil when work is done under warrenty expecially hydraulic oil thats full of metal they have a high priced filter cart that recirculates the oil over and over and whola clean oil thats put back in and the company doesn't have to put in new oil and its covered under warrenty, case and john deere have both done it for me on equipment I have, they claim they can get any damaging amount of foreign metal out and its still good to use the only thing they can't remove is water, then they put in new. Did you also know new oil isn't considered clean until after its run through the filter??? We do a lot of rebuilding of equipment and have fabricated some pretty high priced hydraulic systems and when the oil for them are delivered the hydraulic company reps always run the new oil through a filter cart and then pump it into the machine because they won't warrenty the pumps and motors if the oils not filtered first and my oil suppliers insist on the same so theres no liability on either part for failures or wear on startup, have done it for years. We filter used hydraulic fluid and mix with new oil that has been bounced around in the back of pickups going to and from jobsites and might be contaminated and thats bar oil and also rollerchain oil on equipment. We believe in keeping life simple good oil for equipment and the odds and ends for chain, seeing how we run through several thousand gallons per year of new and used we kinda deal in volume and convience . Never tried buying 1000 gallons of corn oil in quart bottles before to oil chains but who knows what tomorrow will bring, as of yet I don't know of any major equipment manufactures endorsing veggi oil and still qualifying for full warrenty but I'm sure after reading this someone will prove that wrong. I guess when its good enough to run in a 100 thousand dollar piece of equipment and the manufacturer endorses it it'll probably work oiling a 20 dollar chain. Take it one step further I oil sample everthing I own to get drain recommendations and have never had anything come back that wouldn't run another 50 hours on the same oil and when its good enough to run and lubricate a 100 grand piece of equipment for another 50hours I'd think it could handle 2 seconds on a chainsaw chain even if it wasn't refiltered but I'm sure someone will tear that idea apart too.


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## eyolf (Mar 14, 2009)

I wouldn't even try to use drain oil if anything better was available. I have a Jonsered 621 that was destroyed with the stuff...acids from diesel drainings wrecked the bore of the oil pump. I also have a couple of old Homelites with pitted oil tanks caused by using drain oil.

There are methods to remove the dirt and contaminants: oil recyclers do more than filter, although filtering is probably sufficient for tranhydral, air-compressor oil, and others that don't see combustion by-products. True recycled oil isn't usually much cheaper than regular oil, because of the expense of cleaning it out. They have to "wash" it, treat it with more chemicals to precipitate the contaminants out and "wash" it again, all based on continuous testing for what's in every tanker load of waste oil.

The are oil-recycling stations in my county, but I recently learned that the waste oil is sold to a facility that burns it; there's more money in it as bunker fuel than to recycle it...go figure!


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## GASoline71 (Mar 14, 2009)

Randy... you need a "pair-of-graphs"... 

Gary


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## GASoline71 (Mar 14, 2009)

paniner said:


> I'm with the guy who's used motor oil all his life with no ill effects... and it's free, if you change your own oil. I use a screened funnel to put it in the container- just in case- but it's been screened through a pretty fine filter on the car. Bar oil has additives, but so does my car oil- i use semi-synthetic and sometimes a product like STP. Been workin for 50 years- and I think the bar oil is for people who think they HAVE to wear special clothes when they ride a bike, etc.



Dude... used motor oil has gasoline in it... which is a solvent... if you haven't had any problems... you got lucky is all I have to say. I bet all your saws have nice dark stains on them from the waste oil as well...

Lewis was talkin' about usin' "FRESH" clean 30wt oil...

Gary


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## stipes (Mar 14, 2009)

*Used the canola mix friday....*

Was in the high 40's and I used the 50/50 mix of Stihl bar oil and canola oil...Flowed real good,,and kept checkin for heat on bar and chain....I still wouldnt use it in 60 degree weather,,but for a winter mix,,yes,,,been workin great so far....


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## Slamm (Mar 14, 2009)

Using the veggie oil will work just fine, but the problem is you can't leave it in your saw. After a period of time it becomes the stickiest substance known to mankind and you can't get it off. Must be mother nature's "tackifier", LOL. 

Right now I don't use my saws everyday or even every month, but if/when I get back to logging, and I run out of the many gallons of Jonsered and Walmart oil that I have, I will use canola oil, because it works and its cheaper, I would for sure use it over motor oil, because it sticks better, my opinion.

But you can't let it sit in the tank for a month. You have to finish up your last day or couple of tanks of cutting using dino oil to clear out the veggie oil, before storage for any length of time.

For years in the hottest of summers, I have logged using only Walmart brand Supertech, which is just about the cheapest crap you can put in the oil tank, and I have never ever thrown a bar or chain away because it wore out prematurely. I logged a lot with Amish loggers and they would send the "driver" into town to get some bar oil and who knew what he would come back with, well ....... I never ever notice any difference between the various brands from Stihl on down, in how it affected the bar or chain ...... I've used summer in the winter and winter in the summer and never ever noticed anything the would indicate that more expensive is "more" better, and I'm the type that doesn't mind some kinda excuse to use better quality products, but with bar oil I couldn't ever justify it, because there isn't any functional differences in normal to even somewhat abusive conditions.

That being said, I always used Stihl chains and Stihl or GB bars, no Oregan bars or chains that are butter soft and can't take the heat or wear, my opinion.

I use Amsoil Synthetic 2 stroke oil at 50:1 and run modded saws only, but I go "cheap" on the bar oil, LOL.

That is what I do,

Sam


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## rustyb (Mar 15, 2009)

brucew44guns said:


> With my retirement funds sinking, the spectre of an attack somewhere in the US still a possibility from our enemies, I have a real hard time worrying too much about bar oil.



I hear ya. However, for me, my personal health comes before anything. Without health, nothing else really matters....


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## rustyb (Mar 15, 2009)

Slamm said:


> Using the veggie oil will work just fine, but the problem is you can't leave it in your saw. After a period of time it becomes the stickiest substance known to mankind and you can't get it off.
> Sam



A few people have commented on this yet I have not experienced this at all. 

A couple of my saws only see use once or twice a year...and I never drain the oil or do anything else special. When I pull these saws out from a long hiatus, I do some times notice a "stickieness" between the bar and chain. However, this completely disappears as soon as the saw is used and the oiler gets some fresh oil out.

Perhaps some veggie oils can cause problems, I don't know. 90% of the time, I have used straight canola oil with only natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. The other 10% of the time, I used corn, soy and perhaps another type...with natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. My experience is 4 years with four completely different saws.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 15, 2009)

Those that are saying Canola et al are more expensive to produce than mineral based lubes, using vegie oil for bar oil, at least in the case of canola, it doesn't need to be esterfied as it does to produce quality biodiesel. You just use it from the pressing without further refining, just filtering, whereas biodiesel needs to be esterfied meaning further processing involving heat and acids, etc.

Here's the conclusion of a report; 


> Life-Cycle Assessment of Chainsaw Lubricants made from Rapeseed Oil or Mineral Oil
> 
> P.S. Wightman1, R.M. Eavis1, K.C. Walker1, S.E. Batchelor1, S.P. Carruthers2 & E.J. Booth1
> 
> ...



To really improve the performance of Canola, use a high oleic acid Canola and use a specific saw chain additive package at around 20%/volume which adds the necessary tack and EW additives, and importantly for NA and Europe, allows flow at very low temps.
This still gives over 90% biodegradability with very good performance.


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## rustyb (Mar 15, 2009)

tdi-rick said:


> To really improve the performance of Canola, use a high oleic acid Canola and use a specific saw chain additive package at around 20%/volume which adds the necessary tack and EW additives, and importantly for NA and Europe, allows flow at very low temps.



There's that term "necessary" again. One doesn't need to add ANYTHING to Canola for it to work. That's the beauty of it. Pick some up while grocery shopping, pour it into the saw and start cutting. It's that simple. 

Adding things to Canola just makes it unhealthier, takes time and costs money. There is no logical reason to reinvent the wheel (unless perhaps in very cold temps which I do not have experience with).


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## Tree Machine (Mar 16, 2009)

You can go to the manufacturer, order a free sample and try it out yourself.

This bottle of pure tack was wrapped because I was needing to hang it upside down to do a time-lapse of how long it took to empty out of the bottle.
(I think it was like 17 hours)


I have the MSDS sheet on it somewhere and molecularly we can figure out what it looks like and why it does what it does, 

but we'll keep coming back around to that we're working with a _constant infusion system_ 
where the oil lubricates, and is then thrown off. The question then becomes, is tack really needed at all? The answer is what you want it to be.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 16, 2009)

tdi-rick said:


> Those that are saying Canola et al are more expensive to produce than mineral based lubes, using vegie oil for bar oil, at least in the case of canola, it doesn't need to be esterfied as it does to produce quality biodiesel. You just use it from the pressing without further refining, just filtering, whereas biodiesel needs to be esterfied meaning further processing involving heat and acids, etc.



Thanks, Rick.

The processing cost, and this is interesting, can be looked at differently. Soy oil, for example, they're pressing and processing the beans for protein, for the food for soy products and industrial animal feeds. The oil needs to be removed so the feed won't go rancid. They bottle up this secondary product, add a smidge of alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) as an antioxidant. That's all. There's inherent value in that nothing more needs to be done to the oil for us to use it in our chainsaws.

Canola. This seed plant does well in Canada, where the short growing season in the north and mid Saskatchewan, the vast plains and fertile soils, canola is ideally suited to that environment, the oil removed, canola meal is a high-protein livestock feed. 



Canola has a lower phase change point, as shown in low temps, side by side.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 16, 2009)

rustyb said:


> There's that term "necessary" again. One doesn't need to add ANYTHING to Canola for it to work. That's the beauty of it. Pick some up while grocery shopping, pour it into the saw and start cutting. It's that simple.
> 
> Adding things to Canola just makes it unhealthier, takes time and costs money. There is no logical reason to reinvent the wheel (unless perhaps in very cold temps which I do not have experience with).



It may well 'work' as is, and so did engine oil in the forties and fifties, but would you use that stuff in a modern engine ?
I'd want at least some EP/AW additives in there thanks to the loads and extreme speed on the sprocket, bearings and chain. Tackifiers are a point to argue on, even amongst blenders.

Unless I see a test where 'x' bar and chain is run for 'x' hours with straight canola side by side an identical bar and chain using a good conventional additised oil, and wear and life are similar or better I'll remain sceptical as to whether straight canola is up to the job.

There's a huge difference between something working, and working to the best we can have it.
Up until the 1950's motor oil was basic stuff, pretty much the crap that was pumped out of the ground, filtered, mixed with other oils that were pumped out of the ground to obtain a specific viscosity and added to an engine.
It worked, but engines were rebuilt between 15 and 50,000 miles as they were stuffed. Yes, metalurgy and tolerances also had a bearing on this, but the bottom line is that the oils were very basic.

Modern engine and gear oils comprise an additive package of between 15 and 25% of the total volume of oil to enhance their performance with pretty trick base oils compared to even fifteen years ago. Yes, a number of things in those lubes aren't needed in bar oil, including the oxidation stability of the modern base oils, but I would still think we would need some EP/AW component to prevent premature wear. 
FWIW there are specific bar/chain additive packages available that when added at 18-20% still allows for over 90% bio-degradability, and the cradle to grave study I quoted from above used additised canola bar oil, not straight canola.

One advantage of canola over mineral oils is it's far better viscosity index (VI). This is in the region of 220 and up, compared to a Group I mineral oil of around 95-110.
All this means is that canola doesn't thin out near as fast as a mineral oil and it also has a pretty good pour temp, but be warned, from what I've read it does some pretty weird stuff below 0*C so needs something to help cold flow properties. 

I'd like to use it, and it's pretty cheap here, I can buy it in any size drum I want as canola is a major crop, but I just couldn't bring myself to use it straight. Bars, sprockets and chains are damned expensive on this side of the Pacific.

I tell you what, I'll post on an oil board for a couple of blenders I know and ask their opinion on straight canola vs an additised canola. Could be interesting.


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## rustyb (Mar 16, 2009)

tdi-rick said:


> It may well 'work' as is, and so did engine oil in the forties and fifties, but would you use that stuff in a modern engine ?
> I'd want at least some EP/AW additives in there thanks to the loads and extreme speed on the sprocket, bearings and chain. Tackifiers are a point to argue on, even amongst blenders.
> 
> I tell you what, I'll post on an oil board for a couple of blenders I know and ask their opinion on straight canola vs an additised canola. Could be interesting.



There's no comparison between engine oil and bar/chain oil. Engine oil stays in the engine where it is pumped through a system thousands of times. Chainsaws use a Total Loss Lubricating system. The oil is on the bar/chain for a nanosecond before it is flung off. Simple physics. If it actually clung on to your saw, think how heavy and gunked up it would be at the end of the day. Pretty silly, isn't it

You can pose the question to the blenders you refer to, but honestly here; what would you expect them to say???
_
"Uh, yeah, there is no logic in blending when you could save time, money and be healthier with straight Canola that works great for the nanosecond it's on the bar"_

Uh huh, I can see an "oil blender" saying that. I mean, who wouldn't want to shoot themselves in the foot?


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## Randy88 (Mar 17, 2009)

Tree machine: Don't want to start ww3 here but soy oil is extruded from beans not to prevent feed from going rancid but FOR the oil, thats what beans were developed for and originally grown comercially for was the oil, the stuff left over was a by product of the processing system and originally never had any use for it and was disposed of, not until testing was done that the junk leftover was determined fit for animals and has been used ever since as a feed stock and by no means will leaving the oil in cause the feed to go rancid, they stay good unprocessed for years, their called SOYBEANS. 


The use of beans has grown in the last 30 years and the " crush" as they call processing has led to the development of many new products that have soy oil in and many more in the development stage along with corn and many other crops, if I dug around long enough I could find how many uses the soybean has and the many different products that the oil has gone into if you'd like to know. But the jest of this is the OIL is whats valuable in the soybean not the byproduct called bean meal thats fed to livestock: 


When soybeans made their appearance as a farm crop I believe forage hay was one of the first uses in the 1930's as a drought crop where the whole plant was fed to livestock and then cooking oil was one of the major players in its development that drove the need for it in the first place as a row crop, if not number one, in the top five anyhow, today I'd venture a guess and say maybe somewhere between 100-200 things the oil is purchased for in everyday use.

Now if you'd like to go head to head on the use of soyoil and the products thats it in and if you'd actually like to do comparisions about the products your claiming you know a lot about maybe start with narrowing down your selection of those products because soy oil or corn oil isn't really doing a lot for the rest of us that do know theres about 50 differnt kinds of each that you could pull off the store shelves and the differnt ingredents that are in each, so far all you've done is narrowed it down to about 400 differnt products give or take, heres a hint but don't take it the wrong way, THEIR MADE FOR COOKING FOOD, different food requires differnt formulations and thus the many differnt formulas of product for sale to the household user. You have this illusion that cooking oil is cooking oil and soy oil is just that soy oil, or corn oil or conola oi or whatever, are you honestly thinking that they just squeeze it clean it and bottle it and add pinch of this to make it yummy??? If so theres a lot of scientists that have been wasing their lives working in labs when all they needed to do is go squeeze some and whola its oil. 

Ask a lot of the folks that do cooking and you'd be surprised as to who likes what for cooking what, its called brands of product and no thier not the same they have things called formulas, those littel guys sitting in science labs doing testing of things for differnt companies that are copywrited so others can't sell their fornula, trade name and ingredients, the only common deniminator is that they are fit for human consumption and approved by the FDA.


Thats like saying somethings slippery, thus melting ice and vasaline are virtually interchangeable. Your discussing the comparisions of gear lube and 10wt motor oil because everybody knows that oils oil and by all means go for it and let me know who wins. 


Don't want to get into a twenty page arguement here, and yes I do have an open mind and I really do read a lot of the discussion here and am interested in exploring new options, its called learning and thats why I'm here but keep the comparisions on the same playing field, so we can actually get some good out of it to know which products do what and of what brand, something like flowability of Wesson at certain temps and a certain brand of canola will do this if left in the saw but another brand of canola won't, you know something we can actually take to heart and use. Do comparisions of all the corn oils and then all the soy or canola and then against corn vs. canola, we want to know which kind and brand has flowability at certain temps, cooking oil vs frying oil, stuff like that. The tack thing was good just expand the idea somewhat and inform us so we know what you found out and and keep working on it, its not just cooking vs petroleum theres a lot more to it and yes we do want to know just like use 10wt in winter and 30wt in summer.


There maybe something to the use of using cooking oil as bar lube and who knows where the future is headed, remember testing in labs are done everyday and there probably has been some scientist sitting reading these articles and is already working on the issue because if theres money to be made someone will put the idea to use, the ad could say " cook with it, lube with it in all kinds of weather on the store shelves and endorsed by saw manufacturers everywhere," could happen tomorrow for all we know.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 17, 2009)

tdi-rick said:


> Tackifiers are a point to argue on, even amongst blenders.


 Tackifiers have MANY uses in the industry, and we could discuss how they're applied to the chain on a roller coaster so the oil won't drip off the chain on it's way up the first big hill. But that doesn't add anything to the discussion.



tdi-rick said:


> Unless I see a test where 'x' bar and chain is run for 'x' hours with straight canola side by side an identical bar and chain using a good conventional additised oil, and wear and life are similar or better I'll remain sceptical as to whether straight canola is up to the job.



Please be clear that I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. We're simply putting the information out there, you need to convince your own self. I think the test you describe would say something, not as much as the info gathered from 7 or 8 years field use, and independent, honest reports from in-field users. I personally, wouldn't want to base this decision on a single or series of 'wear tests'. I can pretty much tell you how they'll come out.



tdi-rick said:


> There's a huge difference between something working, and working to the best we can have it.


This is the part that really blew me away, take it purely as an opinion, though I've read it in other places, canola oil actually works better than regular bar oil. Possibly I'm biassed, and since there is no quantitative, scientific evidence to back this, I'll keep it as an opinion, but as for the single point of lubricity, keeping the bar and chain lubed while in use, no problem whatsoever. Truly exceptional performance. Flawless. Better than I had expected it to be.



tdi-rick said:


> I would still think we would need some EP/AW component to prevent premature wear.


I'll just be straight-up and honest, wear on the sprocket and bar and chain are so similar, you'll be hard-pressed to find a noticeable difference.





tdi-rick said:


> One advantage of canola over mineral oils is it's far better viscosity index (VI). This is in the region of 220 and up, compared to a Group I mineral oil of around 95-110.
> All this means is that canola doesn't thin out near as fast as a mineral oil and it also has a pretty good pour temp, but be warned, from what I've read it does some pretty weird stuff below 0*C so needs something to help cold flow properties.


 The pictures of the oil bottles above were at -3C. It takes, really, really bitter to bring canola to phase change. Even then, canola will pour, turning back to liquid with just a couple degrees difference. Even in its 'frozen' state it still 'flows' out of the bottle and once in the saw, starting the saw warms the system and the lubricant stays liquid. I've heard some say 'frozen' oil flows like molasses, but that's a broad comparison. If you poured the two at the same temperature you'd see the flow properties are worlds apart.


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## 046 (Mar 17, 2009)

another vote for veggie oils... doesn't seem to matter which one... what ever is cheapest. works great!

main drawback is can't use when cold... veggie oil gets almost like molasses when cold... barely pours... a problem until saw warms up. a pita to use when cold. 

don't think veggie oil turns rancid from sitting, but veggie oils do gunk up from sitting. 

ran into a bulk buy on new 15/40 motor oil ... so that's what I've been using.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 17, 2009)

046 said:


> don't think veggie oil turns rancid from sitting, but veggie oils do gunk up from sitting.


They 'gunk up' in the clutch sidecase (mix with sawdust and collect there, just like regular bar oil), a reason why we do NOT recommend veggie for homeowners or part-timers. If the oil sits for extended periods, exposed to the atmosphere, it can and will do weird things.

This is why we don't recommend you use veggie oil, and then not use your saw for weeks or months. It's the guys using _daily_ that because of the fresh oil flushing out the last, and former being regularly replenished with fresh lubricating oil that this whole thing works. If you are going to NOT use your saw for extended periods, run a half tank of regular bar oil through at the end of the day before putting your saw into storage. If you're a regular user, canola per norm and just clean and maintain your saw at a respectable level.

I find it easier to clean a veggie saw than a tack-bar oil saw. Debris scrapes and blows out easier with compressed air when its not sticky.


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## 046 (Mar 17, 2009)

deleted dup


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## 046 (Mar 17, 2009)

totally agree... veggie oils is not for occasional users. 
from a cost savings point of view... not worth the hassles

have not tried blends, which are offered by some commercial bar oil mfg. 

locally bar oil is $10 gallon vs my bulk new motor oil was $1.50 gal
basically most any new motor oil will do fine... sometimes one can find bulk feeder oils for much less $$$...


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## Tree Machine (Mar 17, 2009)

046 said:


> totally agree... veggie oils is not for occasional users.
> from a cost savings point of view... not worth the hassles



If you are not sure what a bar rail guide channel is, or know what makes a good groove-scraping tool..... If you aren't cleaning your guide channel and oiler hole every time you remove the chain...... if you only remove the chain once or twice a year...... if you get a year or two out of a single chain...... 
Don't use vegetable oil.


I am really directing to those who use a lot of oil because they use their saws a lot. You make your living doing this, it occupies much of your time and it spills over into other parts of your life, the decisions you make in your work life. 

Especially if you're using fifty gallons a year or better. You are my fellow professionals.




The distinction between regular saw users, and non-regular saw users HAS to be pointed out, however, the line between the two can be wide and fuzzy. Let's just say, for the record, my fellow *regular* saw users, you know who you are.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to reply TM.

My point on the tackifiers is how much is need on saw chain.
One bloke I know who is very switched on reckons most chain/bar brews use too much in his experience as an oil formulator.

The only reason I question whether straight canola can handle the loads is that any oil base I've had anything to do with needed something added to help it along, even the exxy esters. If you blokes have that many years using it and bar/chain life seems on a par or better with what you had before, that's pretty impressive.
We mustn't forget that 'normal' chain/bar lube is pretty rudimentary stuff using the cheapest base stocks and minimal additives so that the blenders are making much better margins on it than engine oils, at least with what they charge here.

I'll dig up the reference, but the problem with the cold flow properties of canola were well below what you tested at, and below what I experience here or even want to cut at.

If part time cutters like me want to use vegie or bio oils and then leave the saw sit for some weeks or months, the recommendation I heard was to drain the tank, fill a little with some SAE 30 oil and run it through for a bit to flush out the pump, then you wont have any problems with gumming.


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## rustyb (Mar 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Slamm
> Using the veggie oil will work just fine, but the problem is you can't leave it in your saw. After a period of time it becomes the stickiest substance known to mankind and you can't get it off.
> Sam






rustyb said:


> A few people have commented on this yet I have not experienced this at all.
> 
> A couple of my saws only see use once or twice a year...and I never drain the oil or do anything else special. When I pull these saws out from a long hiatus, I do some times notice a "stickieness" between the bar and chain. However, this completely disappears as soon as the saw is used and the oiler gets some fresh oil out.
> 
> Perhaps some veggie oils can cause problems, I don't know. 90% of the time, I have used straight canola oil with only natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. The other 10% of the time, I used corn, soy and perhaps another type...with natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. My experience is 4 years with four completely different saws.



TDI-Rick, 046 & Tree Machine,

Forgive me if this was not over looked as it appeared to me but in regards to veggie oils not being for "occasional" users, above is a previous post of mine from page 11 of this thread.

Since I posted, I do recall the chain being stuck to the bar on one of these saws after nearly a years worth of sitting. No big deal though as I just put some gloves on, pulled it loose and started cutting. The oil in the tank was like new.

For what it's worth, most of the Canola I have used has been the Kirkland brand from Costco. I buy it by the gallon.

If people are having issues with their oilers -- and they are positive it's due to the veggie oil -- then there really must be something to the different brands and types of veggie oils as someone alluded to here a few posts up. 

Here are the saws I have used Canola oil in without a single issue: Stihl 180 electric, Makita 5012B electric, Stihl MS180 and Stihl MS260.


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## tdi-rick (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, interesting responses from a couple of blokes that know what they are talking about...

Gentleman 1.


> "Well, it's certainly biodegradeable and pure canola is an ester.
> 
> If it's about 30 weight and flows well, more power to them.
> 
> ...



Gentleman 2


> its OK will work very well though will over time oxidize to a heavy gear oil vis but that Ok for a bar oil



So that would be a qualified thumbs up. Straight replies from two different people that have and do blend lubricants ranging from industrial to motor racing and aerospace applications.


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## rustyb (Mar 19, 2009)

Not sure I qualify as someone who "know(s) what they are talking about" but as a follow up to my previous post, I pulled out my Makita saw yesterday to cut down a little bush for a friend. It was the first time this saw had been used since last June. Its chain was completely free (no stickiness) and the Canola in the tank was good enough to cook with; no rancidness.

I should note however that this saw has a manual oiler...so, it may not always get as much oil on the bar and chain as saws with automatic oilers. In other words, it may be possible that there was less oil on the bar and chain when I put it away last June. At any rate, I thought it was worth mentioning.......

By the way; thanks for your follow up, TDI-Rick.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 19, 2009)

True, the inside of the tank would be free of air, except what's in there, and the antioxidant in the oil will protect from that, just like it would in a sealed bottle. Microbes would also not flourish because, well, nothing lives on straight oil. Microorganisms need protein for cell membranes and organelles, without a nitrogen source reproduction, colonization and habitat are really very unlikely.

The areas of concern are those open to the atmosphere, those are the parts that are visible and inspectable and periodically _cleanable_.

Which brings me to a question...... If you were running veggie and you are going on multi-month bush hike in the jungles of Brushzekistan..... and you forgot to do any preparative shelf work to the saws, you have two minutes before your wife starts screaming..... what do you do?


I would think WD-40 or some similar cleaning lubricant shot into the guide rail, good and heavy. Just intuitively I would think this would be a good management exercise for the bar and chain.


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## Tree Machine (Mar 19, 2009)

And yea, thanks for the followup with the blenders, TDI Rick


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## Smokerr (Mar 19, 2009)

Y'all that are thinking of veggie oil might wantto be sure there are no bears around

Those who are going to use bacon grease might want to have a pistol on your belts (that's so you can shoot yourself when the pack of bears attack!) 

Or you can help out your fellow cutters and stick with bar oil or motor oil


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## GASoline71 (Mar 19, 2009)

You're wastin' your breath...

Gary


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## demographic (Mar 26, 2010)

I know I'm dredging up an old thread here but am I right in thinking that what you call Canola oil is what we in the UK call Rapeseed oil?


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## tdi-rick (Mar 26, 2010)

Yep, Canola is a hybridised, low Erucic acid form of Rapeseed.


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## rustyb (Mar 26, 2010)

demographic said:


> I know I'm dredging up an old thread here but am I right in thinking that what you call Canola oil is what we in the UK call Rapeseed oil?



Yes....sort of. Canola is a low erucic acid variety of Rape Seed developed for food usage. Some of the European saw uses have reportedly experienced health related issues while using rapeseed oil...presumably from the erucic acid.


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## demographic (Mar 26, 2010)

tdi-rick said:


> Yep, Canola is a hybridised, low Erucic acid form of Rapeseed.






rustyb said:


> Yes....sort of. Canola is a low erucic acid variety of Rape Seed developed for food usage. Some of the European saw uses have reportedly experienced health related issues while using rapeseed oil...presumably from the erucic acid.



Thanks to both of you.

I'll have a look next time I'm in Tesco at the price, but I do know that the Bar oil in my local chainsaw dealer is pretty expensive stuff so if veggie oil does even close to the same job I might give it a go in one of the saws I got for nothing anyway.
Its only got a short bar and consequently a short chain so if its a big deal it wont cost the earth to replace.

I might give it a go.


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## rustyb (Mar 26, 2010)

You're welcome. I'm still using straight vegi oil, 5 yrs later, in all four of my saws with no problems that I can see.


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## Slamm (Mar 26, 2010)

I have used Canola oil this last winter on my 30 inch bar on the 084 for noodle cutting and also on the 28 inch bar on the 660, 24 inch bar on the 441 and 20" bar on the 361. I didn't notice any problems.

If bar oil can be purchased for $5 or less, I will use any type of bar oil, but if I have to spend more than that I will walk into a grocery store and get Canola Oil.

The Canola Oil doesn't work great when its 20F cold, I cut it with some diesel one time and mixed gas (very, very little) another time in the cold.

Not saying its right, but its what I did and it worked fine,

Sam


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## r1stgei (Jul 29, 2017)

bvaught said:


> Why dont all you veggie oil guys start putting that in your automobile crankcase. Couldnt hurt, theres no "real evidence" one is better than the other. And its got to be better for the environment.
> 
> From now on Im using bacon grease too. I like the smell, and if it clogs because its too cold out, the heat from the bar not getting lubricated willl eventually heat up the grease and it will start working again.



LMFAO!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 1Alpha1 (Jul 29, 2017)

If the chainsaw police get word of inappropriate oil being used for the b&c, there's a good chance that your saw will be seized.

Below is a picture smuggled out of the fatherland.


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## Boudreaux In Eunice La. (Jul 30, 2017)

I did not read all the pages YET..... Has anyone mentioned Mineral oil the stuff we use on cuttings boards for chopping veggies ?? It is cheap and my wife tans with it. It is not thick and won't clog up saws ........


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## skipster (Jul 30, 2017)

been using canola for six months now,no problems.


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