# Natural Crotch Rope...What Do You Prefer



## YUKON 659 (May 19, 2003)

I was wondering what type of rope most of you use for rigging from a natural crotch?

Thanks Jeff


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## Tim Gardner (May 19, 2003)

I prefer 1/2 double braid for light work but I am using 16 strand because it is cheaper. I do however like the way 16 strand will soak up some of the shock better.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2003)

Mostly, I like to borrow Tim G's ropes for natural crotch rigging, that or Brian's ropes.
I wouldn't even think of using my own!


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## Tom Dunlap (May 19, 2003)

Natural crotch rigging? It seems like I remember hearing about that sometime in the distant past 

Why? Do you have an outhouse or indoor plumbing? I still can't understand how anyone can afford to use the internet but can't understand the value of buying a false crotch for rigging. Light rigging is the best use for the ring on ring FCs. They're pretty clumsy for climbing.

Tom


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## Tim Gardner (May 19, 2003)

Tom and Mike, I find it hard to believe any person that would say they NEVER use a natural crotch for rigging. I do not and will not believe either of you use a block, pulley or ring on ring FS for every single lower on every job. Type until your fingers are numb but I will not believe you. The guy asked what climbers preferred and in my reply I said nothing about using only natural crotches to lower from.


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## Joe (May 19, 2003)

16 strand, 12 strand, and 3 strand.

Joe


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2003)

Tim, you 're going to tell me every time you want toast you put bread in the toaster? You never rub two sticks together until there is enough heat to start dry leaves on fire, then throw on some small sticks, then hold the bread just the right distance from the fire, to make the toast?
Type 'til you drop, I know you rub sticks.

Joe does too.


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## Tim Gardner (May 19, 2003)

Dang Mike I thought this thread was about rope not food. Or was that a ploy to distract the readers from the subject?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 19, 2003)

OK Tim, about twice a year I natural crotch rig, very light stuff, and usually the tail of my climbing rope. Almost every time I regret it.


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## Joe (May 19, 2003)

Mike's flaming the boards. 

Arbormaster has taken over.

(shaking finger at Mike) "Now Mike, you should know better than to throw away some perfectly good sticks. One must always remember to use what resources are available. What about when the toaster is broken or the electric is out?"

Joe


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## Tim Gardner (May 20, 2003)

Mike, I am not trying to undermine you or Tom’s credibility in any way. The two of you have worked hard and earned respect. I have not said natural crotch rigging is ok. It is not. However it is not as bad as you make it out to be. I have personally used 16 strands for two years running them through natural crotches and then only retired them because of age. A new rope can be destroyed in only one lower or it can be used thousands of times depending on how the climber uses it. Most of the time a pulley/friction break works better for control, rope wear, etc. but then there are times when a natural crotch will work. If I sat down and figured it out the ropes I use for natural crotch rigging wind up costing me less than a penny per foot if I add in the number of jobs completed with them. Come on guys, how much do you expect for your $110.00 worth of rope? Ten, 20 or more years? And since you guys want to compare other things to rope I bet you do not wet asphalt or concrete driveways when you are maneuvering your trucks and chippers do you? A truck tire can cost over $150.00 and you guys are not lubricating the driveways with water so as not to wear them down when turning the steering wheel? What about loading a truck with a skid steer? I bet you do not wet the driveways or street then either. That tandem flatbed trailer wears tires out pretty fast too huh? You probably don’t even think about spraying down the street before turning it around with a heavy load on it. But you guys will jump at the chance to reply about how stupid or backwards someone is for using a natural crotch to rig from. 

And now if you will forgive my ranting and excuse me I have to rub these two sticks together to light a torch so as to see my way to the outhouse.


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## YUKON 659 (May 20, 2003)

I understand that using a natural crotch can pre maturely wear out ropes!!!! That is the reason I asked what rope you guys prefer. No, I will not be using natural crotches for any heavy rigging (unless I absolutley have to)...mostly light rigging. If you have noticed in another thread I started, I will be getting a false crotch set up. All I did was ask a simple question and all I was looking for was a simple answer. Tim and Joe thanks for the information. Mike and Tom, maybe everyone on this site isn't quite as knowledgeable as you two, this is the reason we ask the questions we do. Now let me ask you again..... when you DO use a natural crotch, what rope DO you prefer?

Thanks Jeff


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## tjk (May 20, 2003)

When light rigging in a natural crotch usually while prunning I perfer 12 or 3 strand for cost and durability. Double braid is expensive and designed for false crotch rigging.


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## Tom Dunlap (May 20, 2003)

Ok Ok Ok!!! I'll come clean... I do use a rope for natural crotch rigging. Wanna know what kind? The crappiest, nastiest, snagged, tie the brush on the trailer reject rope in the truck.

There, now I feel better.

The only circumstances that I use a natural crotch is when I can toss a line into a low limb and cut it from the ground. Maybe pole saw or power pruner. 

If I'm going to set a line when I'm in the tree I use the ring on ring FC that is used ONLY for rigging. Since I have to pull a rope into the tree, I get the FC at the same time. Besides saving the rope and the tree using the FC makes for easy removal of the rope. My rigging systems are all based on adjusting the friction on the ground not trying to judge the amount of friction in the tree.

For light rigging I use a piece of Blue Streak or half inch double braid.

Tom


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## kf_tree (May 20, 2003)

then riddle me this false crotch guys.......i tend to double and triple crotch alot and lower off both ends of the rope. will you guys set up 2 and 3 false crotch's?

i prefer double braid ropes....1/2 - 9/16 or 5/8 they got retired within 2 years.....or got knicked by a groundy , wich ever came first.

rope is cheap.


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## Greg (May 20, 2003)

I have 200ft of 1/2 superbraid plus for those rare cases where I must natural crotch a large limb. Small tree removals where I know that I won't be lowering anything that even calls for the porta wrap I use 12 strand arboplex. In cases where I'm rigging a small tree down and I know that the heaviest branch I may lower is at most 100lbs I won't even take a block up with me.
Greg


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## tjk (May 20, 2003)

I also double and triple crotch the load line and yes with false anchors. I will use a false crotch because the crotch may not be where I want it.


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## Stumper (May 20, 2003)

I 've beem thinking back on it and I've used 3 strand, 12 strand and 16 strand for natural crotch rigging and never had any real problem with any of them. I used (and still do ) 3 strand for most of my natural crotch rigs and despite all the talk about wear it really holds up well --if you aren't running heavy stuff fast it lasts and lasts.


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## TREETX (May 20, 2003)

Mike, do us all a favor and please lay off the analogies for a while. I am not sure you understand what an analogy is. Make sure the relationships you are trying to paralell are identical. It helps.

Rubbing sticks, toasting?? Natural crotches?? I don't see any paralells here. Just explain what you mean.

http://www.factmonster.com/spot/analogy.html

I got this off www.google.com maybe it will help you learn to appropriately use analogies. 

Maybe you should check out metaphors as well. Then we can move on to similies (like or as).

You are in luck, there is a link on the analogy page to the scooby doo mystery club.


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## TREETX (May 20, 2003)

Heaven forbid if you were to lower something with the tail of your life line through a natural crotch.

I only natural crotch rig with some old blue streak I have. My good lowering lines never see a natural crotch.

Same can be said for life lines. I have life lines that I will use in natural crotches anytime and others that I will only use in my RG. 

I almost always have at least 2 lines in any tree even for pruning. Entry line and life/working line.

For light rigging I usually prefer a loop runner and a krab just so I can choose where the lowering is happening instead of relying on a NC.

LMAO


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## Joe (May 20, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with natural crotch rigging. It has it's place and shouldn't be a discarded technique. 

Joe


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## rahtreelimbs (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Joe _
> *There's nothing wrong with natural crotch rigging. It has it's place and shouldn't be a discarded technique.
> 
> Joe *




Especially on removals. If this is easier for you, do it. Pruning is a different matter.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 20, 2003)

Boy, all I did was mention that I don't often N/C rig and I get reamed out, and insulted because I'm not an english major.
Did I hit a cord here? 
You want great writing, you won't find find it here, not from me, nor 95% of the posters here, incuding you Tex. I don't think that's what this site is about anyway.
As far as me being right, hardly, but I can give an opinion. Brian, you are the most subborn induvidual whose writiing I have ever read. Talk about a closed mind! If I have an opinion that doesn't mach yours, then I'm an idiot.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2003)

Light rigging with a retired climbing line, sometimes the tail of my current climbing line. Too bad Ox is boycotting the site, he does it too, and would love being lumped in with the hacks.

I natural crotch if that crotch is conveniant, If a pully will give a better abngle or I want to rig with low friction I will set a carbiner of pulley.

Yes Ken, when rigging a removal I will set a primary block and several other pullies. Some I will move around with me so that I can get an optimal line of force or proper swing. Maybe I should say so I can get the load to do what I want it to do better. Remember, I want as little friction outside of the bollard as possible. When winching that friction gets in the way fast. I will also set carabiners an clevises in palces to get the rigging line to fair throught the tree properly. Minimal rubbing please.

My primary rigging rope is 1/2 inch double braid. I may be getting some of the new hard weave DBrais that NER is coming out with. I understand that the flattening on the drum is what causes most of the melting in ehavy rigs.


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## Tim Gardner (May 20, 2003)

I do not think anyone on this site is an idiot. I have learned at least one thing from all the regulars here. Thanks guys. 

Mike I was not jumping on you or Tom. If it sounded that way I apologize. I value both of you guys opinions.

Tom, thank you for the ring on ring FS for rigging tip. I never thought about that. Aluminum or steel?


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## YUKON 659 (May 20, 2003)

Guys, thanks for your input...after the first few replies from Mike and Tom...I thought I was the only IDIOT that would consider using a natural crotch.

Jeff


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2003)

Soemtimes I like to lace it around several branches so that I can self rig a sizeable piece down without burning my gloves


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 20, 2003)

*Which rope.*

If you are going to do a lot of natural crotch rigging, I guess the double braid would be the best choice. 
A 3, 12 or 16 strand rope is braided such that every strand comes to the surface. So if you burn only a couple feet, you have burned every single strand. 
A kernmantle rope, like a mountain climbers rope with a thin sheath, would not have that problem, but the cover would wear through quickly and snag up. 
A double braid would loose some of it's strenth if the cover were burned, but much of the strength is in the core anyway. So that's my vote. 

Personally I find it harder to set up and remove a Natural Crotch system. I also find it more difficult to use. There is some concern about wearing the rope and hurting the tree, but mostly it is slower and more difficult than setting a FC, both for the climber and the groundy.
If you have a different experience that does not make you an idiot, just different.
I gotta go have some toast.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 20, 2003)

I feel like toast right now.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 20, 2003)

i have some lines for years, and some as a wearable resource, downgraded lifeline. i think that natural crotch rigging has some good points, sometimes going for high friction.

Lower support loads, minimizing amount of line that needs to be extreme pretightening (leaving less dynamic line to absorb dynamic loads in trade), and subsequentially self tighten immediately upon movement, to bind the load against itself immediatelyt gradually handing off to rigging and force mechanics into first class lever status before tearoff, with a balanced load and float out.

Tradeoffs being wear to matinig surfaces of line and limb that give this control.

Only lighter stuff in thin barked trims if supporting branching is not coming out as part of process, slow lowering. Someitmes this means pulley closeby and line coming back to limb for high angle support and friction on limb that is coming out. As the weight comes off, it is added back on, at a lower leveraged position.

:alien:


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## Tom Dunlap (May 21, 2003)

Whew! Go to work for a day and all H*ll flies 

Natural crotch rigging has its place, I'll grant you that. I just don't have a place for it on my crew. Above exceptions noted though.

Being able to control friction at the ground is my main impetus to do FC rigging. 

I use the aluminum Ring on ring FC with no noticeable wear. But then, I generally only use that on smaller limb wood. 

Rarely do I ever rig through double crotches or redirects. If I did, I might use a sling and biner or pulley depending on the size of the limb and the angles that I want to turn. 

Tom


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## kf_tree (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *
> 
> Being able to control friction at the ground is my main impetus to do FC rigging.
> ...



this i'm surprised at.....there has been a few times where i've ripped crotch's out. thing could have gotten ugly if i did not have my lowering line double crotched.


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## TREETX (May 21, 2003)

I think everyone is on the same page here but are having a hard time communicating it.

Sorry if I forced anyone to spend the night crying themselves to sleep.

I really don't care about spelling or the butchering of the english language on this site. I was just trying to point out that if you are trying to paralell relationships, make sure they make sense. Otherwise, your point is lost. For example, I am off to have some Jelly Toast.

I remember pics of OX creating some natural crotch rigging.

Have a nice day!!!


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## Tom Dunlap (May 21, 2003)

KF,

We're talking about two different approaches. YOurs seems to work, until you tear out your rigging point. That sounds like a situation that would have been solved another way. Good thing to have used the Fishing Pole method. 

Setting up the FOS, http://www.verticalpro.net/ , only takes a couple of minutes.

By using FC and friction devices, the groundie doesn't have to judge how much friction to have in hand. When in doubt, add another turn of rope. In time, they can learn better how much friction to have by judging the branch and rigging angles. When using natural crotches, the fricion is so variable the learning curve is long and steep. Using rope tools gets even rookie groundies up to speed quicker. I've had homeowners ground for me before and they do just fine. I would never consider using a rookie or novice to do natural crotch and tree wrap rigging. 

What's time to a turtle?

Tom


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