# Granite Mountain Hot Shot tragedy update



## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

You may or may not have heard, but the tragedy in regards to the Prescott, AZ. Granite Mountain Hot Shots, has taken a turn for the worse. 

Of the 19 wild land fire fighters that perished, only 6 were considered full-time. The 6 that were full-time, will receive more benefits than the 13 that were only part-time employees. 

All 19 families of the deceased will receive a federal payment of approx. $328K. This is separate from the millions of dollars that have been collected world-wide, nationally and locally. At some point, it will be divided up and given to the 19 families. 

One of the widows of the 13, is going to sue the city of Prescott, because she claims that the city stated that the 13 part-time fire fighters benefit status will be changed to full-time status in order to obtain higher benefits. Of course, the city of Prescott is saying that statement was never made and would be illegal to even do so. 

It sounds as if more widows / families of the 13 part-timers may jump on the law-suit bandwagon in an attempt to get full-time employee death benefits. 

I have some mixed feelings on this issue, but will not elaborate further at this time, because it may come across as somewhat negative. I'm retired LE and my death benefits were no where even close to what the widows and families may receive. 

Anyways, I just wanted to update those of you that may not have heard the most recent information.


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## Eightweight (Aug 7, 2013)

nothing can replace them but the monetary payments will help support the family's time of grief.
Deepest condolences for those lost


t


dano said:


> You may or may not have heard, but the tragedy in regards to the Prescott, AZ. Granite Mountain Hot Shots, has taken a turn for the worse.
> 
> Of the 19 wild land fire fighters that perished, only 6 were considered full-time. The 6 that were full-time, will receive more benefits than the 13 that were only part-time employees.
> 
> ...


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> I have some mixed feelings on this issue, but will not elaborate further at this time, because it may come across as somewhat negative. I'm retired LE and my death benefits were no where even close to what the widows and families may receive.
> 
> .



Good plan. If you have anything negative to say about the firefighters, their deaths, or the benefits being paid to dependents simply because _your_ death benefits didn't match up it might be best to just keep your comments to yourself.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Good plan. If you have anything negative to say about the firefighters, their deaths, or the benefits being paid to survivors simply because _your_ death benefits didn't match up it might be best to just keep your comments to yourself.




I was beginning to think that you didn't care about what I posted anymore. 

Good to know that I don't need to worry.


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## barneyrb (Aug 7, 2013)

I am not unsympathetic to the FF that perished and really think survivors deserve compensation but does this really belong in the chainsaw forum?


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> I was beginning to think that you didn't care about what I posted anymore.
> 
> Good to know that I don't need to worry.



No problem. I put a link to your post in the Fire section of Forestry and Logging. We have quite a few firefighters here and I thought maybe they'd be interested in your thoughts.


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## Erock (Aug 7, 2013)

It is terrible the lack of compensation for seasonal ff's. I did it for 4 seasons. Loved the work but wasn't a fan of the gov. baggage that came with it and the lack of health, dental.... You name it, a check every 2 weeks was it. Not much incentive if you ask me. My dad always told me a job ain't worth crap unless you're getting good benny's.


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## RiverRocket (Aug 7, 2013)

Erock said:


> It is terrible the lack of compensation for seasonal ff's. I did it for 4 seasons. Loved the work but wasn't a fan of the gov. baggage that came with it and the lack of health, dental.... You name it, a check every 2 weeks was it. Not much incentive if you ask me. My dad always told me a job ain't worth crap unless you're getting good benny's.


I'll add to what your what your dad told you....A Jobs not Worth crap if you don't get recognition for what you do...:msp_wink:


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

barneyrb said:


> I am not unsympathetic to the FF that perished and really think survivors deserve compensation but does this really belong in the chainsaw forum?



You're right. I'll move this to Forestry and Logging.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

RiverRocket said:


> I'll add to what your what your dad told you....A Jobs not Worth crap if you don't get recognition for what you do...:msp_wink:




In this day and age, most people are just happy to have a job and a steady paycheck. 

Any job recognition is just icing on the cake.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> In this day and age, most people are just happy to have a job and a steady paycheck.
> 
> Any job recognition is just icing on the cake.



Okay, but what about your statement in the next to last paragraph of your original post? Do you think that maybe, just maybe there was a slight hint of sour grapes there?

The issue of whether or not your death benefits were smaller than the fire fighters isn't even an issue here except to point out the fact that you're mean spirited, completely out of touch with the situation and very self involved.

19 fine young men lost their lives on that fire...and you're grumbling about the dependent's benefits? You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Okay, but what about your statement in the next to last paragraph of your original post? Do you think that maybe, just maybe there was a slight hint of sour grapes there?
> 
> The issue of whether or not your death benefits were smaller than the fire fighters isn't even an issue here except to point out the fact that you're mean spirited, completely out of touch with the situation and very self involved.
> 
> 19 fine young men lost their lives on that fire...and you're grumbling about the dependent's benefits? You should be ashamed of yourself.




As much as you'd like to think you know me well enough to make judgement calls, in reality, you don't have a clue. Matter-of-fact, you dislike anyone that has a differing point of view, opinion, or take on a matter other than yours, whether it's saw related or not. 

The part-time (seasonal) employees knew exactly what they had signed up for, benefits or not. If they didn't relay that information on to their spouses and families, that's something that is now going to have to be dealt with. 

Monies that have been collected is going to be very substantial. Far more than what could ever have been expected. For that, I'm happy for them. But to turn around and sue the community that brought this all together, is just wrong. To divide a community over an employment contract that is clear and concise, is shocking. 

And yes, I'm part of that community. That means I'm entitled to an opinion.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 7, 2013)

Dano you didn't die on the job so what your death benefits paid are a moot point


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## RVALUE (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm just curious, but why would a firefighter's life be worth more than a serviceman killed in battle? 

Just asking.

Terrible thing all around.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> Dano you didn't die on the job so what your death benefits paid are a moot point




Some days, it sure as hell felt like I died on the job. 

My point, is that the money collected for the 19 that perished, is well over and above what any basic life insurance benefits they would have been entitled to.

It was the community that took it upon themselves to plan, organize and execute directives, to obtain donated money from all over the world. 

I'm very happy that the money collected, will provide a long-lasting, secure financial future, for those effected by the tragedy.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm not a firefighter, Law enforcement or military...

But maybe your really just mad because people care more about fire fighters than they do about cops? 

If so ask yourself why.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'm not a firefighter, Law enforcement or military...
> 
> But maybe your really just mad because people care more about fire fighters than they do about cops?
> 
> If so ask yourself why.




Maybe.....just maybe, it's cause fire fighters don't give out tickets or bust you for drunk driving, or beating up on your spouse, or stealing from another, or committing crimes that cost us taxpayers lots of money.

But hey.......the next time you find your home broken into and you think the intruder is still in the premises, call a fire fighter. 

BTW......I'm ex-military and retired LE (29 yrs.) and think of fire fighters as brothers in uniform.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> And yes, I'm part of that community. That means I'm entitled to an opinion.



Of course you're entitled to an opinion. Those of us who hear your opinion are entitled to comment on it. And it _will_ be commented on. Our comments won't mean much to you but they're valid and accurate. A lot of them come from personal experience.

Have you stood up in public in your little town and said the same things you posted here? Have you taken out an ad in the paper bemoaning the fact that your death benefits were less than the fire fighters? Started a petition against the payout of full time benefits? No? Don't you have the courage of your convictions? Or are you, in your town, a poser, a chronic malcontent, and a dilettante...much the same as you are here...and not taken seriously?

You can't come here and make the statements you have with total impunity. If you run your mouth here about things you'd best stay silent about somebody will always call you on it. You should know that by now.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 7, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Of course you're entitled to an opinion. Those of us who hear your opinion are entitled to comment on it. And it _will_ be commented on. Our comments won't mean much to you but they're valid and accurate. A lot of them come from personal experience.
> 
> Have you stood up in public in your little town and said the same things you posted here? Have you taken out an ad in the paper bemoaning the fact that your death benefits were less than the fire fighters? Started a petition against the payout of full time benefits? No? Don't you have the courage of your convictions? Or are you, in your town, a poser, a chronic malcontent, and a dilettante...much the same as you are here...and not taken seriously?
> 
> You can't come here and make the statements you have with total impunity. If you run your mouth here about things you'd best stay silent about somebody will always call you on it. You should know that by now.





I started the thread on the tragedy and kept all of you updated on it, as best I could. I felt as bad as anyone else not directly connected to the losses. 

I donated more than to just one fund. I was happy to see the community and the nation respond as they did. Money came flowing in at a rate unequaled in recent past. It was obvious that the money was going to be sufficient and not come up short. 

It wasn't until one widow decided that her part-time employee husband should be compensated at a rate equal to those working full-time, that I began to take notice. It wasn't just me that began to think things over further. 

The bad thing is, it's just going to get worse as the widow obtains an attorney and takes the city to court. It's going to cast a cloud over the work that has taken place to insure that the families of the 19 lost have been compensated generously.

Oh and BTW.....if I were to call you names, not unlike the names you have called me, you'd ban me again. 

When I think of you, the term chicken#### comes to mind. I'm thinking I hit the nail right on the head. :msp_tongue:


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## twochains (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> I have some mixed feelings on this issue, but will not elaborate further at this time, because it may come across as somewhat negative. I'm retired LE and my death benefits were no where even close to what the widows and families may receive.
> 
> Anyways, I just wanted to update those of you that may not have heard the most recent information.



You Sir are possibly one of the insensitive people I have come across on this forum. Are you just looking to piss people off? After a tragic accident, you make a thread basically saying that you are upset because the families are going to receive more money in death benefits than your family will receive? Who thinks like that?


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## northmanlogging (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> Maybe.....just maybe, it's cause fire fighters don't give out tickets or bust you for drunk driving, or beating up on your spouse, or stealing from another, or committing crimes that cost us taxpayers lots of money.
> 
> But hey.......the next time you find your home broken into and you think the intruder is still in the premises, call a fire fighter.
> 
> BTW......I'm ex-military and retired LE (29 yrs.) and think of fire fighters as brothers in uniform.



I'll think of you the next time I'm thrown against the side of my house and being threatened with criminal resisting arrest... for reckless driving while standing in my driveway?
or having a gun pulled on me for scratching my eyebrow, or being pulled over for 43 in a 50, or when I do call the cops for an intruder and they don't show up for 2 hours, should I go on? Cause I can for, for days. 

Oh yeah I only call 911 if there is a fire or an accident, the police won't show up or do anything anyways, the firefighters are always there.

By the way implying that I beat my wife is just low, or that I'm a thief or a drunk driver. I may not be a copper but I have never been arrested, for anything.


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> I started the thread on the tragedy and kept all of you updated on it, as best I could. I felt as bad as anyone else not directly connected to the losses.
> 
> I donated more than to just one fund. I was happy to see the community and the nation respond as they did. Money came flowing in at a rate unequaled in recent past. It was obvious that the money was going to be sufficient and not come up short.
> 
> ...




No, I probably wouldn't ban you . It's more fun to let you stay around. Sometimes the entertainment factor of having you here outweighs the aggravation. Sometimes. 

Of course, if you ask to be banned, like you did once before in another thread, we'd be more than happy to accommodate you. That way you could devote more of your time and energy to making sure that the firefighter's widows don't take undue advantage. I think you'd be the right guy for the job.


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## roberte (Aug 7, 2013)

Wow, unbelievable.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 7, 2013)

I believe he likes posting stuff that will get alot of attention and then like to sit back and watch the fallout.


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## redprospector (Aug 7, 2013)

dano said:


> I started the thread on the tragedy and kept all of you updated on it, as best I could. I felt as bad as anyone else not directly connected to the losses.
> 
> I donated more than to just one fund. I was happy to see the community and the nation respond as they did. Money came flowing in at a rate unequaled in recent past. It was obvious that the money was going to be sufficient and not come up short.
> 
> ...




Don't hurt your shoulder patting yourself on the back like that.
I'd be willing to venture that you might be on the other side of the fence if your spouse had perished with those fire fighters. But that's something that I hope we never know for sure.

Andy


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## Gologit (Aug 7, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> I believe he likes posting stuff that will get alot of attention and then like to sit back and watch the fallout.



Maybe so. But this time he picked the wrong bait to go trolling with.


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## redprospector (Aug 7, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I may not be a copper but I have never been arrested, for anything.



My, my, my. What a sheltered life we must lead.  
I was arrested once for aggravated resisting arrest. I aggravated the heck outa 3 of em before they got me arrested. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 8, 2013)

Like I stated, I was fine with everything.......until someone decided that she wasn't going to get enough money and wanted more. 

If it had been just one or two fire fighters that perished, it might have made the news. There wouldn't have been the out pouring of support and money that has occurred presently. 

It's not just me that has been concerned about what's going on. The whole local community has become divided. The only difference is, I posted about it on this forum. 

The only death benefits that I had to compare it to, were my own. In no way did I say it was wrong in any way. I'm not even sure what the basic death benefits are for a wild land fire fighter. Obviously, they differ between full-time and part-time. 

My concern was the fact that one person wasn't happy with her husband's employment status, and she wants it changed. 

Bottom line, is that the monies received from fed. payments, donations and charities, are going to far out-weigh any survivor benefits that the state would have paid out, be it full or part-time employment.


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## bustedup (Aug 8, 2013)

Original OP.......your trying to make capital outta this .......not cool..............bereaved families do not need folks jumping on bandwagons it hard enough ......in that trust me.


You sir should know better if you are ex military like you say then you should know better


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 8, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> I'll think of you the next time I'm thrown against the side of my house and being threatened with criminal resisting arrest... for reckless driving while standing in my driveway?
> or having a gun pulled on me for scratching my eyebrow, or being pulled over for 43 in a 50, or when I do call the cops for an intruder and they don't show up for 2 hours, should I go on? Cause I can for, for days.
> 
> Oh yeah I only call 911 if there is a fire or an accident, the police won't show up or do anything anyways, the firefighters are always there.
> ...





I never implied that you were anything. I was just comparing the duties of a fire fighter to that of a police officer. 

BTW.....I've never been arrested either, but I've sure put a lot of people right where they belong. :msp_wink:


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## bustedup (Aug 8, 2013)

dano said:


> Like I stated, I was fine with everything.......until someone decided that she wasn't going to get enough money and wanted more.
> 
> If it had been just one or two fire fighters that perished, it might have made the news. There wouldn't have been the out pouring of support and money that has occurred presently.
> 
> ...





Are you running for political office cause to me that is how it sounds .........again you if you do have the background you claim should know way better than to deepen divisions and stir a pot ............and it does sound that you are doing it for your own kudos .......so my advice ......................leave it you should know better


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 8, 2013)

bustedup said:


> Original OP.......your trying to make capital outta this .......not cool..............bereaved families do not need folks jumping on bandwagons it hard enough ......in that trust me.
> 
> 
> You sir should know better if you are ex military like you say then you should know better





When the community steps up and does it's best to make things as financially secure as possible for those affected, and one of those effected says or does something shocking, the community has a right to respond. 

And.....being in the military has nothing to do with it.


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## slowp (Aug 8, 2013)

There's more to worry about than money. I just found this, and haven't watched the video, but just reading what the guy says is worrisome.
The comments explain my feelings well. Brush and buildings are not worth lives.

Granite Mountain Hotshot co-founder Darrell Willis describes 19-member crew’s last stand on Yarnell Hill | InvestigativeMEDIA


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## northmanlogging (Aug 8, 2013)

redprospector said:


> My, my, my. What a sheltered life we must lead.
> I was arrested once for aggravated resisting arrest. I aggravated the heck outa 3 of em before they got me arrested. :hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> Andy



There was just the one, after I informed him that the hand he didn't have pinned behind my back was resting on a .357 and that I most certainly wasn't resisting... yet... he got really nice... I didn't even know it was a cop until after I was eating the paint off my house thought it was a pissed neighbor... Only way I knew it was a cop was when I was turning to ah well aim... I saw the patch on his shoulder... did I mention it was dark.

Still got a reckless ticket out of it...

Any way, Me thinks mr retired copper is just a little jaded, and he can piss up a rope, along with the rest of the jaded or crooked cops, but that's just my opinion.

So what if one woman feels a little slighted about not receiving as much cash as everyone else, she has the right to sue, and the fire service has a right to defend, if dead guy signed a contract guess who wins and who gets made a mockery of in public.

The part that gets me is some dude comparing his possible unearnings with some other dudes earnings... Big ####ing deal, I don't even have life insurance now, am I going to be pissed if some other logger dies and his family gets $20,498,572,059. and some change, probably not, or if a doctor axes his jugular while performing a histerectomy and his/her spouse gets 34 billion, jealous yes, pissed not likely.


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## northmanlogging (Aug 8, 2013)

dano said:


> I never implied that you were anything. I was just comparing the duties of a fire fighter to that of a police officer.
> 
> BTW.....I've never been arrested either, but I've sure put a lot of people right where they belong. :msp_wink:



There is a large percentage of prison inmates that are serving time for crimes they did not commit. 

Get off your high horse buddy. 

welcome to my ignore list... you'll find its very lonely in there.


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## Steve NW WI (Aug 8, 2013)

Ignoring dano's apparent distaste with the situation for a moment, and just thinking about this from another line of thinking, I have a couple thoughts:

It sounds like these guys were federal employees at the time? If so, I'm gonna use a comparison between them and the military. I know that guard/reserves are considered "full time" while deployed, and receive the same benefits as active duty members they are serving with. Would/should this not be the same in this situation?

Also, to me, it matters none at all if it's a volunteer EMT or a paid full time firefighter, cop, or whatever that's hurt or killed in the line of duty, I would expect and hope that they and or their families were taken care of as well as possible. In other words, to me, it's not their employment status, but their "line of duty" status that should have a bearing on this or any other case.

I just watched the Nightline interview with the surviving member of the crew, it was a pretty sobering story.

Link here: Brendan McDonough, Sole Survivor of Arizona Hotshot Firefighting Tragedy, Speaks Out - ABC News

I feel as badly for him and his family as I do the families of those killed. That young man has a lot to deal with, and it's going to take a long time for anything close to "normal" to come back into his life.


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## Karl Robbers (Aug 8, 2013)

As a Volunteer Firefighter myself, albeit in Australia, I consider the 19 fallen brothers in arms.
I believe fully that full time and part timers should be treated equally if they fall on the fire ground. They both fight the same fires, they both have families and sadly they both are as dead as each other. That's how we do it in my state fire service and the other states are very similar.
Any mean spirited low life who begrudges the widows of the fallen had better hope they never need the fire brigade themselves in my book.


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## Jacob J. (Aug 8, 2013)

Steve NW WI said:


> It sounds like these guys were federal employees at the time? If so, I'm gonna use a comparison between them and the military. I know that guard/reserves are considered "full time" while deployed, and receive the same benefits as active duty members they are serving with. Would/should this not be the same in this situation?



They were employees of the city of Prescott, not federal government employees. Granite Mountain was the first municipal hotshot crew. Hotshot crews, like Smokejumpers and Heli-Rappellers, are administered on a national level by a "steering" committee- which oversees training, performance standards, and certifications. For a program to be designated Type 1 status, there's a rigorous system of checks they have to go through. For a non-Federal program, they have to apply to be considered for Type 1 status and then demonstrate proficiencies before an inspection group. The group usually includes regional and national program managers including former Hotshot Superintendents and former Smokejumpers.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 8, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> There is a large percentage of prison inmates that are serving time for crimes they did not commit.
> 
> Get off your high horse buddy.
> 
> welcome to my ignore list... you'll find its very lonely in there.





Let me take a minute to school you some. Police officers don't put innocent people in prison. The court system does that. Police officers only arrest people based on information provided to them by others, or information acquired first-hand, criminal acts committed in their presence, or arrest warrants issued by a court.

In 29 yrs. of policing, not once did I arrest or hassle an innocent person. Too many criminal-minded people out and running around. No need to mess with the innocent ones.

If a person chooses to live life as a criminal, they best be prepared to be treated like one. 

BTW......you're on my ignore list too. :msp_biggrin:


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## jrcat (Aug 8, 2013)

Can I be on your ignore list too?


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## roberte (Aug 8, 2013)

jrcat said:


> Can I be on your ignore list too?



me too.

and now dano with the last word again....otstir:


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## jrcat (Aug 8, 2013)

May the families of the fallen find closure and peace and may the fallen rest in peace. 

Dano, had you NOT brought up how much money your family WONT get compared to these men, you might have had a good thread here. Instead you used the plight of others to draw attention to yourself. That is a level of wrong I have never witnessed on any public forum I have visited. I stuck up for you once for a bashing you received in the chainsaw forum, which you are unaware of. Then you turned around and made an even bigger heel of yourself that same day. I learned then that you are self centered and selfish. After a few people call you out on your drivel, you try to revert to being a decent forum member, which fails miserably because of the bad taste you leave in your wake. Being a supposed retired law enforcement officer, you should know what honor and integrity mean. IMHO , you do not deserve to call those 19 men your brothers in arms. 

ps: I noticed you have no friends here....I can only imagine why.........


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 8, 2013)

jrcat said:


> May the families of the fallen find closure and peace and may the fallen rest in peace.
> 
> Dano, had you NOT brought up how much money your family WONT get compared to these men, you might have had a good thread here. Instead you used the plight of others to draw attention to yourself. That is a level of wrong I have never witnessed on any public forum I have visited. I stuck up for you once for a bashing you received in the chainsaw forum, which you are unaware of. Then you turned around and made an even bigger heel of yourself that same day. I learned then that you are self centered and selfish. After a few people call you out on your drivel, you try to revert to being a decent forum member, which fails miserably because of the bad taste you leave in your wake. Being a supposed retired law enforcement officer, you should know what honor and integrity mean. IMHO , you do not deserve to call those 19 men your brothers in arms.
> 
> ps: I noticed you have no friends here....I can only imagine why.........





Not once did I criticize any fire fighter. I was only hoping that their survivor benefits would be enough to take some of the stress of the tragedy off the families. 

I had no idea as to what the survivor benefits amounted to. But after seeing how the community rallied around the families and made things happen, it was obvious that the monies collected was going to be of such an amount, that the families could breathe a small sigh of relief. 

The monies collected (it's still coming in) amounted to more than any individual death benefit would have amounted to. Only one family had an issue with that, and that's because she felt that her seasonal employee husband should receive the same benefits as a full-time employee. 

The issue has divided those here who have participated in various ways to help those who had suffered. That was my whole point and still is. 

If I didn't make that clear, then it's on me.


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## Gologit (Aug 8, 2013)

dano said:


> I'm retired LE and my death benefits were no where even close to what the widows and families may receive.



Sour grapes, pure and simple.


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## 056 kid (Aug 8, 2013)

twochains said:


> You Sir are possibly one of the insensitive people I have come across on this forum. Are you just looking to piss people off? After a tragic accident, you make a thread basically saying that you are upset because the families are going to receive more money in death benefits than your family will receive? Who thinks like that?



Sound's like he's a cop, (cringe). What do you expect. Most but not all cops I have encountered where shall we say, not the friendliest people I have met... matter of fact id say an undetermined percentage of police are straight up low down douchebags with something big to prove. I could go into detail, but this is absolutely NOT the place. 
May those brave firefighters rest in peace.


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## Truck4 (Aug 8, 2013)

dano said:


> Only one family had an issue with that, and that's because she felt that her seasonal employee husband should receive the same benefits as a full-time employee.



Sorry to kick you while your down but she/they should receive the same benefits. Her husband was doing the SAME job as the others just cause they were seasonal does not mean they are in less danger or do less work. I wonder if your tune would be the same for a officer working part time w/out benefits was killed in the line of duty be the same as that of a full time officer with benefits?


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## 2dogs (Aug 8, 2013)

Truck4 said:


> Sorry to kick you while your down but she/they should receive the same benefits. Her husband was doing the SAME job as the others just cause they were seasonal does not mean they are in less danger or do less work. I wonder if your tune would be the same for a officer working part time w/out benefits was killed in the line of duty be the same as that of a full time officer with benefits?



Then you believe a contract should be signed after someone is hurt or killed? That makes no sense to anyone but a liberal. It's all about feelings.

No, a contract was signed prior to the fire season and it must be honored, If donations come in or Prescott wants to add additional benefits that's fine. Suing for more that the agreed upon amount should be stopped.


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Truck4 said:


> Sorry to kick you while your down but she/they should receive the same benefits. Her husband was doing the SAME job as the others just cause they were seasonal does not mean they are in less danger or do less work. I wonder if your tune would be the same for a officer working part time w/out benefits was killed in the line of duty be the same as that of a full time officer with benefits?




I agree with you. Same risks / hazards......same pay. 

But, I didn't write the job agreement / contract. It was on the news again tonight. They showed the actual contract that was signed before being hired. It clearly states that seasonal employees receives no benefits of any kind. Straight pay only. 

There is going to be a bill presented before the state senate for a vote, so that both full-time and part-time employees receive the same bennies. But, the vote won't come up until Jan. of 2014. Good news is that if it passes, it will be retro-active.


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## IcePick (Aug 9, 2013)

Ive read and re-read dano's original post. I think he was looking to create a platform for rational conversation. Instead he has successfully been burned at the stake by an angry mob. Too emotional a topic me thinks?


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2013)

dano said:


> I agree with you. Same risks / hazards......same pay.
> 
> But, I didn't write the job agreement / contract. It was on the news again tonight. They showed the actual contract that was signed before being hired. It clearly states that seasonal employees receives no benefits of any kind. Straight pay only.
> 
> There is going to be a bill presented before the state senate for a vote, so that both full-time and part-time employees receive the same bennies. But, the vote won't come up until Jan. of 2014. Good news is that if it passes, it will be retro-active.



For whom? Oh, I see it must be an AZ thing. Forest Service seasonals have been trying to get that bill passed federally for eons. Having worked as a seasonal and permanent, I can say that I've never heard of anybody thinking about death benefits. You're young and invincible. 
Pay? We got hazard pay on fires and overtime too. That's why you go. The pay. Not to be a hero. Not to collect death benefits for somebody else.

Hazard is a quarter of your hourly pay added, and overtime is time and a half. So, you can get paid your hourly wage plus 3/4 of your hourly wage if shifts are long. That's what you go to fires for.


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## imagineero (Aug 9, 2013)

That's an emotionally charged topic for sure.
There were comments posted earlier along the lines of "A Jobs not Worth crap if you don't get recognition for what you do", or "a job's not worth doing unless you're getting paid for it" or similar.

In my opinion, a jobs not worth doing unless you'd do it with no recognition, and still do it if nobody ever knew you did, with no bragging rights. In my opinion, a job's not worth doing unless you'd do it for free, purely for the satisfaction of it. 

I've worked many rescue type jobs, some paid, but mostly unpaid. Mountain rescue, firefighter, coastguard. A lot of it was volunteer work, many hours of training put in, and if I were to ever try to work out what I made per hour I imagine it wouldn't cover the cost of a cup of coffee per day. My family would get nothing if I were to be hurt in that line of work, but I'd still put my life on the line to help others. No question. 

Is that the way it ought to be? It's a double edged sword in my opinion. Yes I feel like the immediate family (wife and kids) of the worker deserve financial assistance. No amount of money will ever compensate them for that loss, but it will help put food on the table. I feel that non-dependants don't really need financial assistance though. Above all, I feel that this kind of job should only be open to those who would do it for no pay and no benefits. This isn't a 'career choice'.

Shaun


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## imagineero (Aug 9, 2013)

slowp said:


> So, you can get paid your hourly wage plus 3/4 of your hourly wage if shifts are long. That's what you go to fires for.



C'mon Patty, I thought you were a little more altruistic than that. You go to fires so you can get 1 3/4 wage loading? I go to fires for the same reason I stop if I see someone with a flat tyre; they may need a hand.

Shaun


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## 1Alpha1 (Aug 9, 2013)

IcePick said:


> Ive read and re-read dano's original post. I think he was looking to create a platform for rational conversation. Instead he has successfully been burned at the stake by an angry mob. Too emotional a topic me thinks?





You may be right, about the topic being too emotional. Initially, I didn't feel that it was, and I had no intention of presenting it that way. 

I suppose that I could have worded it better and in such a way, that no one took offense to it. It was never my intent to turn it into what it has become. 

But, there is a certain faction on this forum that will turn on you no matter the topic or how it's presented. Not unlike high school and the circles of like-minded people with an agenda in mind.


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## slowp (Aug 9, 2013)

imagineero said:


> C'mon Patty, I thought you were a little more altruistic than that. You go to fires so you can get 1 3/4 wage loading? I go to fires for the same reason I stop if I see someone with a flat tyre; they may need a hand.
> 
> Shaun



I did it for the money. I'm not talking about a neighborhood threatened--just woods burning. Nothing wrong with getting paid. 
The only reason I'd work for free was if a house was threatened or my neighborhood. I never really enjoyed horking up black stuff, sleep deprivation, and some real idiots ordering folks around. Maybe things have changed? I'll bet if you didn't pay anybody, very few folks would show up and the quality of the crews might be questionable. Plus, in our part of the world, you have to have a few qualifications to fight fire.


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## HuskStihl (Aug 9, 2013)

imagineero said:


> In my opinion, a jobs not worth doing unless you'd do it with no recognition, and still do it if nobody ever knew you did, with no bragging rights. In my opinion, a job's not worth doing unless you'd do it for free, purely for the satisfaction of it.



Back when I was a wet t-shirt contest judge moonlighting as a heterosexual male escort I couldn't have agreed with you more. Now I still do lots of stuff to help people with no expectation of remuneration, but I have found a paycheck to be necessary


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