# Torque vs Speed for milling



## the westspartan (Dec 29, 2008)

I am fairly new to chainsaw milling. I just got an Alaskan mill this summer. I am running a 441 with a 24" bar as I am cutting mostly 18" average white pine and a little walnut and cottonwood of similar size to the pine. It works great, so far. I have milled enough lumber to build a small workshop and a few other projects (i will post pictures of my workshop at a later date). I have been milling a few times a week since August.

After looking through this site, however, I have started thinking about modding my saw to get more power. I talked to a Stihl dealer about this, he suggested using an 8 pin srocket instead of the stock 7 pin that came on the saw. He said I would gain a lot of speed and lose a little torque.

What I am wondering is, what is more benneficial in milling, torque or chain speed?

Also does anyone know if Stihl makes a dual port muffler for the ms441?

What about skiptooth chain?

p.s. I am new to this forum and I find it very helpfull. I have been reading it for months and just signed up yesterday!


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## stipes (Dec 29, 2008)

*Going to try things too...*

My jred is doin a good job,,but I been wondering too,,torque..Sharp chain,,and keep the speed up it flys,,but you cant dog her down...Starts to load up...I have a old Mac sp80 I'm gonna try to fit up just for the fun of it and see what happens...speed isnt like the jred,,but it's something you cant play with with the torque..Just wondering myself...Good luck,,and soon as I experment,,I'll let you and all know how it worked...


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## timberwolf (Dec 29, 2008)

I would stay with 7, 441 is a small saw on a mill, I might go to an 8 on 066 milling 18" diamiter logs, but that would be about the cut off point even with the bigger saw. 

It will be easier on the saw to stick with 7, the fan will go around more often for each time the chain goes around. It will be easier to keep it running nicely in the power band and not bogging down and getting hot.

Don't think there is any easy muffler cover swap, but making the exit hole bigger not rocket science. Though by the sounds of it the 441 does not gain on muffler mods like the xx0 or older even number stihl saws do.


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## Brmorgan (Dec 29, 2008)

I agree with Timberwolf that the 441 might be just a bit small to pull an 8-pin in 18"+ wood. I run one on my 660 on the 25" bar which is in the same size ballpark once mounted on the mill, and it works beautifully. You could try it for cutting boards under, say, 8" off of cants as there's a much smaller load on the engine. Probably not on the walnut though.

As for what's more beneficial - speed in smaller wood, torque in bigger wood. Skiptooth chain is useful in bigger wood if your saw doesn't have enough power to pull full-comp effectively, but I wouldn't bother in the size of wood you've described unless you're really bogging the saw down as it is. You could try it, but keep in mind it'll usually produce a rougher cut.


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## ShoerFast (Dec 29, 2008)

Welcome to the site The Westspartan!  

My $0.02 cents worth is also on the 7-pin, as it would keep better engine RPM's as that is also your engine cooling. Your saw will run cooler and last longer then with an 8-pin. 

With a faster engine, your running slightly less cylinder pressure, taking a little demand off the fuel required. 

The biggest problem I have milling is bogging the saw down, 8-pin would be worst for me. 

By all means your going to want to Muf-Mod your 441, make a pot of coffee and hit the search function, your in for a lot of good reading.


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## the westspartan (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys. That was what I was thinking as well, in terms of sticking with the 7 pin sprocket. I will be looking into muffler mods when I get back to New York.

In your experience, how do Stihl dealers feel about working on modded saws, after they are modded? In other words if I do a muffler modification will most dealers frown on working on the saw, or is this a common enough practice to where they don't mind?


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## BobL (Dec 29, 2008)

RE; What I am wondering is, what is more benneficial in milling, torque or chain speed?

There's no subsititute for RPM or chain speed for fast milling, but if a high speed chain slows down at the first sign of resistance then high RPM alone is not enough and that's why torque or continuous turning force is needed. The back resistance is related to the number of cutters in, and the hardness of, the wood. If you have many cutters in the kerf or the wood is hard the chain experiences high frictional forces between the wood and the chain and (especially if the chain is blunt and the operator starts pushing) the chain and bar. These frictional forces are transferred back to the power head via the sprocket generating a back torque on the sprocket. If the power head does not have enough torque to over come this back torque it bogs. 

A bigger sprocket will increase the free running chain speed but the engine torque has not changed (you have to modify the engine to do that). A bigger sprocket also increases the back torque on the sprocket so unless the power head has enough torque to over come this you will be worse off.

BMorgan has hit it on the head -- speed in smaller wood, torque in bigger [and Harder] wood.


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## Brmorgan (Dec 29, 2008)

the westspartan said:


> In your experience, how do Stihl dealers feel about working on modded saws, after they are modded? In other words if I do a muffler modification will most dealers frown on working on the saw, or is this a common enough practice to where they don't mind?



I can't speak for most, but my local dealer doesn't like it too much. I don't think they have a problem doing subsequent work on saws that users modify (as long as there's no warranty involved), but they WILL NOT mod a saw or even stock/sell the dual-port muffler covers. A guy there told me it had something to do with a combination between Worker's Compensation problems, environmental regs, and warranty issues, so they just quit doing it altogether. That keeps shops like Walker's down on Vancouver Island busy though.


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## dustytools (Dec 29, 2008)

There is a member here that goes by Stihl-in-ky who does some milling with his 441. Im not sure which rims or what type of chain that he runs but he seems really happy with his set-up. You might shoot him a message and ask. I had the pleasure of milling with him and Ian one day and he is very knowledgeable about chainsaw milling and Im sure that he would be happy to help you out.


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## the westspartan (Dec 29, 2008)

thanks dustytools, I will try to send stihl-in-ky a message, to see if he has any input. I am actually in Kentucky right now for the holidays. 

I think I will talk to my dealer up in New York when I get home about the mods.


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## dustytools (Dec 30, 2008)

the westspartan said:


> thanks dustytools, I will try to send stihl-in-ky a message, to see if he has any input. I am actually in Kentucky right now for the holidays.
> 
> I think I will talk to my dealer up in New York when I get home about the mods.



What part of Ky are you in?


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## Stihl-in-Ky (Dec 30, 2008)

I run an 8 pin srocket on my 441 when cutting firewood but put the 7 back on if using it to mill as it is to easy to bog down with the 8 pin.I do plan on trying it on the 066 when I mill next time I look for that to work well.You could most likely get by with the 8 pin on the 441 but you must have a very light touch on the saw and I find it easier to use the 7.And that is also when I mill with my 24" bar the largest I now use on the 441.Anything larger I use the 045 or the 066.


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## the westspartan (Dec 30, 2008)

dustytools said:


> What part of Ky are you in?



I am staying with family in Covington for the holidays.


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## the westspartan (Dec 30, 2008)

Stihl-in-Ky said:


> I run an 8 pin srocket on my 441 when cutting firewood but put the 7 back on if using it to mill as it is to easy to bog down with the 8 pin.I do plan on trying it on the 066 when I mill next time I look for that to work well.You could most likely get by with the 8 pin on the 441 but you must have a very light touch on the saw and I find it easier to use the 7.And that is also when I mill with my 24" bar the largest I now use on the 441.Anything larger I use the 045 or the 066.



Thanks for the advice. I think I will stick with the 7 pin for milling, as you suggest. Have you done a muffler mod on your 441(or any other upgrades)? How about running skiptooth for milling?


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## slabmaster (Jan 1, 2009)

I don't run anything over a 7 pin on any of my mill saws.I use 066 & 395 saws.The 8 pin just is too big for milling and can cause some serious over heating problems in hardwood.I don't do softwood, an 8 pin might be ok there.My saws are highly modifyed and have more rpm anyway, so a seven pin works the best for me.


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## Zodiac45 (Jan 2, 2009)

the westspartan said:


> Thanks for the advice. I think I will stick with the 7 pin for milling, as you suggest. Have you done a muffler mod on your 441(or any other upgrades)? How about running skiptooth for milling?



I'd be careful with the muffler mod on the 441 as it's the new generation of saw engine. All the older type respond nicely too muffler mods but the new generation are different animals and some have said do not respond much or at all too the standard muffler modding. Skiptooth chain will only help you get bigger stuff done (without bogging as much)but at the expense of speed.


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