# Truck Pull



## TheTreeSpyder (May 3, 2002)

Detoured from the "Damage from accidents !!! " thread...
http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=3611

i use a truck confidentally to pull trees over (sometimes put through a 3/1); sometimes lift limbs-then lower thru a PortaWrap on the hitch; sometimes pretightening a line with the truck, then lower the same way through a PortaWrap. But, i really hear you guys about overdoing it!

That is what i meant by "carefully metered force"; the points about proper timing for its application are very important too. Eye see a truck as one type of portable power and anchor; that can be safely used with discretion. One, point is we never really max out the truck, have it sliding sideways, burning rubber or anything. Just to apply overwhelming force at the right moment. Just like all are ropes are so much stronger than we need, we always keep the RPM's low. So we would have all that force in reserve, if we need it; without wearing out the guys, or possibly with less of them! i look at the truck as a tree-mendous amount of power; that we are only going to use a small metered amount of, with plenty of reserve.

The first thing i look at; is 'how much force do i need?'..... 'How off balance is the tree?'; and then 'how much leverage do i have already?'. 

i look at how the weight is distributed in the tree, ie. how much lean am i fighting, and is the weight of lean high or low that i am fighting. i see the point between the cut and the pulling point as a lever. The higher the weight is leaning backwards, the more leverage it has against me; the more force i need. Lower, weight leaning backwards is easy to get leverage on. i look at the attatchment point of the limbs to determine this height/leverage point of that weight, and then subtract equivalent weight leaning forward at its attatchment points; judge what has leverage on what etc. Though a lot of times, we use a truck on things we don't have to. Just when we would like more positive steering and slower drop; by pulling the tree earlier in the backcut; with a 'meatier' hinge, to usher it down. Thereby keeping the tree more 'polite'; on it's fall; into wide facecut. That wide mouth facecut gives the system the mechanical instruction for the tree to hang on longer to the stump; until the faces slam together; committing that all that leveraged, moving force to stop or tear off, as it can't move anymore.

i seek to maximize the leverage into the system by putting the line in the tree as high as possible. i think tracing the line down the back of the tree; instead of just a running bowline up to the top, gives it more bracing; thereby you can confidentally put it into the tree higher, for more leverage. Also, it applies the force in a cocked back position, pushes the tree from the back, and also allows for second guessing your (or someone else's) choice of where it is in the tree. Dropping the cut as low as feasible, also; increases leverage; i like staying in an upright 'running' position - just in case!

i also think that the bend in the red rope at the top; before it comes down to the clove hitch 'wants' to straighten out; the more line tension there is; thus putting some some diffrent kind of force into it too. But, i can't prove or site exactly why.

We also, wedge from the back; using the longest wedge possible. If, a wedge takes a longer distance to give you the same amount of lift; it will put more pressure on the lift of the tree (if your pounding it in tight). Taht's the Mechanical advantage, of that longer distance to achieve; funneled into the same space. A lot depends on the moving machine here, ie. the hinge. So it must be just write. Any rot, 'cat facing', knots, dryness, species, temp etc. that would effect the strength or flexability; could effect the outcome. Good wood, with the face cut almost half way in (scheduling the hinge to be at the widest part of the tree); and walk the hinge down to a point of failure and ease it down with overwhelming force. With the most amount of strong, flexible hinge ushering it down with the most control.

Then, after all else is maximized; we dribble some of the truck force on top at the right moment. Usually a well centered pull, unless we are trying to get some kind of tourqed pull or something. Knowing we could wear the truck out, before we even had enough backut to free it to to fall, might be able to break the rope, mabe even snapping the tree backwards at the same time! We just don't! We just carefully use that mule and anchor and save ourselves, and have more backup force in case something goes wrong! And with a 3/1 on it; you have massive power available; with a lil run; you just very carefully meter it in confidentally, after surveying just what you need when; and realizing you could overdo it at any time, and have plenty of power to get you out of trouble, or into it!.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 3, 2002)

If I am using a truck to pull over a tree, I use it as an anchor point, period.

I will attach the rope, put presure on the line, set the parking brake, turn off the truck, and remove the keys. 

If this is not enough to tip the tree I will piggyback a come along or block and tackle to the pull line. A truck has way too much power and I could discribe many scenerios where bad things happen from applying all this power with a man at the base of the tree being removed.

Here's one:
I picture a 16 year old kid, punching the throttle of a 4 wheel drive one ton, just as some farmer is making a backcut, and the 3/8 nylon rope the got at the farm supply store instantly snapping as the tree swings back and breaks off falling on the farm house, killing his whole family.  After moving into an apartment, the farmer so dispondent desides to kill himself by running his truck in the garage of the apartment building. Only he kills a family in the upstairs with the exaust fumes and is rescued before he dies.

A running bowline at the treetop, rather than a rope running through the treetop and down to the base, will give more power to the pull.


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## coydog (May 3, 2002)

Tuesday I felled a pretty massive box elder against a significant lean by tying into the top with a three in one setup with a truck as an anchor point and a tractor side by side as the pulling element. with that combo I had enough even force to raise the tree up like the boom of a crane on its hinge.


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## coydog (May 3, 2002)

The trick was to pretension the line just enough to see the top move so the tree was supported and balanced during the backcut and not wanting to pinch the bar, only when I could produce some movement with a wedge did I step back and signal for pull
I hope you don't use 3/8" hardware store rope with a hot dog teen one ton driver on your crew Mr.Maas


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## treeman82 (May 3, 2002)

I have been told in the past that when you are pulling a tree over with a truck / tractor / etc that you first make your notch cut (normally 1/3 of the way through) and then put tension on the line. After you have the desired tension you then go and make your cut with a few wedges handy. The reason for this is that what happens if that pull line you have in the tree snaps on you? Where does that leave you as far as pulling power goes? When I was 17, my ex-partner had picked up a nice tree account for us. I remember all kinds of screw ups that we did back then when we were uneducated. 2 situations that come to mind is 1) we put a rope in this little piece of garbage maple tree, put the rope to a block, and back out to one of our trucks. I was in the truck pulling and when my ex-partner went to make the back cut, he barely touched it and the thing went right over (barber chairing I believe) We both were fine luckily. Another time at the same house, we were going to remove a maybe 18" diameter white oak which was only a few feet from the mother's house. We decided to pull that with a truck down in the woods, WHAT A DUMB IDEA! The white oak wound up getting hung up in a red oak and it took us a few hours to get it out of there. What was even worse was that the customer was right there watching us for most of the time.


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## DDM (May 3, 2002)

Does anyone Use a Trunk mounted winch to pull trees? I was considering getting one.


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## palmer4670 (May 4, 2002)

we used to use a winch on the front of our chip truck all the time, it works good to keep tension on the line. like stated earlier when using a truck set the brake and turn the engine off, thats how we use a winch. you can not get a winch fast enough to keep up with a falling tree. 

we have recently started using the fiddle block set up from sherril, (1 week). so far we really like it, you have a better idea of how much tension you have on your rope, and you can readjust easily when used with a PWIII. when we were first getting started we learned a valuable lesson of pulling with trucks and tractors, to much room for miscommunication and error and damage.

but back to the winch on the front of the truck, we use it all the time for other thing, such as loading logs on a flatbed, pulling logs up hills, pulling the loader and bucket truck out of mud, very useful.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 4, 2002)

The GRCS beats all with 12:1 MA you can pull anything with a good hinge over. By using redirrects I have nevr found a situation where I cannot mount it somewhere conveinient.

With the multiple uses it has it will pay for itself in a very short time. As I've said before if it shaves a (very conservative) hour off of each big job then it will pay for it'self in 25 jobs.


John Paul sanborn 
GRCS Representative at Large


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 5, 2002)

i beleive that DDM asked about a Trunk mounted winch; i had tried it, but never had luck with my Baileys Capstan Winch; but others of the brethren have. I beleive the response was for a truck mounted winch.

My whole point of this was to set yourself up with maximum leverage and use the truck's power very sparingly; when the hinge was ready to fold. Too have all that truck's power ready to use, to absolutely overwhelm the situation, metering decisively just how much power to get a graceful fold and at the right time.

We all try diffrent things, that makes up or own experience, that might not seem to transfer over or speak the same to another. One of the things i have done a number of times; is to lift huge things up with a 3/1 on a truck. To knotch a piece in the final direction to drop of choice; when all else is impractical ...............UP! We have done this where a crane can't get. So, i have made that knotch at the top of a horizontal limb; walked a backcut from the bottom up to a point failure; then cleared out as a the truck started to pull up then only. So i guess you sharpen yourself up like that, all that timing really comes into practice! Also, lifted trees and huge limbs off a few cars from storms with it!

We don't do it all the time; sometimes not for months, but there is simple ready power and anchor, sitting right there when you need it. We just don't rule it out; and only use as much power slowly as we need it. Knowing we could blow it with too much power; just be surgical! Before the backcut is so far through, there is nothing you can do, except screw up if you pull with all that power on it! So, we might brace the tree; but never pull on it at that point. The driver is someone that doesn't have that radio playing in there head where they can't hear you, and will do what you say and when! 

If, you are pulling over a 3' diameter Live Oaks (hope i never have to do that!)with 2 guys on a 3/1; would they figure out not to pull on it with all their hemarroid popping might, right from the time you started the backcut by the 10th tree? That they could only effect useful pull on it till a certain point? It is kinda like that with the truck; only they won't be able to snap the rope, barberchair the tree or catapult it backwards like the truck can. There is so much power there to use so easily, ya just gotta take it easy; and only use what you need, when you need it.

The 12/1 is very well taken though! But still a truck could probably out power that and quicker; especially with a 3/1. Also, when using the truck as an anchor, we chock it and brake it; then turn the wheels in such a way that if it started it to creep, the hitched point would be arcing away from the pull, as an extra locking in position strategy. For sometimes, we do jsut as you say, for we don't rule that out either.


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## Newfie (May 6, 2002)

Hey treespyder,

As I wallow in my ignorance I was wondering exactly what a TRUNK winch is? I figured DDM had meant truck winch and made a typo. Explanation would be greatly appreciated.


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## Nickrosis (May 6, 2002)

The Good Rigging Control System is a trunk mounted winch system. You can read all about it at Sherrill's website under "Rigging" then "Lowering Devices" at http://store.wtsherrill.com/HTML/pgi-CustomListProducts5?4,Lowering_Devices,2,157,=,lowr

Other lowering devices exist, but this is only one that allows you to lift logs by using the hand crank. (I'm told the Hobbs does this as well, sorry Mr. Blair!) I have not developed an opinion, but you have to look at your needs and your pocketbook before you buy one.

TreeSpyder: Never in my life have I ever used a truck to pull over a tree, and I never will. The Forestry Industry Safety Training Alliance took me through two levels of their training, and they employ chainsaws, wedges, and axes. I asked about using ropes, and Ken Lalmont said if you were really insecure, you could put a tagline in at the top for extra help. 

The point is, you should be able to fell a tree without the use of a truck. If you feel you need a truck, you should re-evaluate what you're doing and seek out alternatives like blocking it down or craning it out. When you torque a hinge so far, you risk snapping it off. The fibers in the center of a tree can be hundreds of years old, and they may respond unpredictably when you place that kind of force on them.

Secondly, <i>you can not "meter" force with a pickup truck.</i> You can meter force with a spring scale. You can meter force with a hydraulic arm. Trucks are made for driving and pulling trailers with their hitches. If tree climbing champs, loggers, and long-time arborists are telling you should not use a truck when felling trees, perhaps it's a good idea not to. I guess that's all I have to say - I just don't want anyone to get hurt or sued.

Nickrosis


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## Rob Murphy (May 6, 2002)

Earlier Mike said:
A running bowline at the treetop, rather than a rope running through the treetop and down to the base, will give more power to the pull. [/B][/QUOTE]


Why Mike?
I would have thought that the pull would be doubled at the tree top with this set up ?
KC is this what you mean by a 3:1 ?


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## Nickrosis (May 6, 2002)

**I rescind this post later, but I left it for posterity. I made one note about the math, but TreeSpyder did not mean what I drew.**

A running bowline: TreeSpyder's Technique:






First example: Person standing 100 ft. from the tree, pulling with 100 lbs. of force. Tie-in point for the running bowline is 50 ft. high. The notch is 3 ft. above the ground (round numbers, here folks). The difference between the tie-in point and the notch is therefore 47 feet.

Therefore, theta equals the inverse tangent (tan^-1) of 47/100. Theta (the angle created by the rope in the groundman's hands - if he holds it 3 feet off the ground - and the ground) is 25 degrees. We want to know the <i>horizontal</i> force he creates, so we use the cosine force.

T sin theta = horizontal force; 100 cos 25=90.6 lbs.

Multiply this force by the height of the tie-in point (47 ft). <i>The groundman created 4,258 ft-lbs. of force at the notch.</i>

Second example: A driver wants to equate this force. The rope is tied anywhere in the tree (it doesn't matter) and wrapped around the truck as Daniel described. It last touches the tree 8 feet above the ground - this is where the force is exerted.

To find theta, take the inverse tangent of 5 ft (difference of 8 ft and 3 ft - the notch) divided by 100 ft (distance of the hitch from trunk). Theta is 3 degrees.

I divided the 4,258 ft.-lbs. from the earlier example by 5 feet (effective height of the tie-in point). 851.6 lbs. is the result.

T cos 3=851.6 lbs.

The required force from the truck (T) is 853 lbs.

<b>Think about that!</b> The truck driver has to put 8.53 times (853/100-tensions of the rope) the amount of force on the rope to equate what the groundman does! Need I say anymore? You're putting less stress on your equipment by not wrapping around the trunk. You're able to work with less force and save the rope and reduce the risk of damaging your rope.

I'm still working on the force of when someone falls while climbing above their tie-in point. It'll be another 4 hours before Yale opens for business and is able to provide me with the force absorption capacity of a climbing line per pound. I'll get that to you as soon as I can.

Nickrosis


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## Graeme (May 6, 2002)

Nickrosis

Great intent, wrong diagram.

2nd diagram, rope over the top and tied off at the base. (take it from there!)

Graeme


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## treeclimber165 (May 6, 2002)

Dang, Nick! Yer pretty smart for a kid. But from looking at your second diagram, it looks like you grabbed the wrong end of the rope! Ya got lots of 'book smarts', though!


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 6, 2002)

There are 2(maybe more) trunk (or anywhere) mounted winches powered by chainsaws. One uses a cable, one is a capstan (heat treated spool to wrap rope, then it pulls the line as long as you keep the free end tight so that the friction winches the line on the open spool). I thought DDM, might have been referring to them.

The way i usually place a line in a tree to pull, no matter what the pulling force is, is over the top and cloved to the base. Seeing as all the pulling force on a bowline would put all the stress of the pull at one specific point, i feel this alternate is better. The way i pictured in the original post, the stress of the pull is ran down the back side and shared by the length of the spar over a greater area, thereby stronger i feel. Also, if the top where to bend or break, this would be superior also. Plus the line pushes the tree from the back, and its pull comes from a cocked back position. Also i think due to the line bending over the top of the tree, as it tightens, there seems to me to be some kind of ''bowstring effect" whereby the line wants to be straight under tension, this seems to put something extra in there. Anyway, i feel more confident, placing this line higher in the tree, for a more leveraged pull, no matter how i am pulling it over; as it won't place all the stress at one point, and has a safety factor if that point bends or snaps. If a bowline around your chest pulls you; it would not be as positive as one going over your head and tied to your ankles pulling you (if you had it where it couldn't slide off). A lil'gross; but that is how i visualize these things; by feel! Think about that increased leverage, and line down your spine pushing you forward as the line pulls! i think you would be more proposed to tip forward too, rather than just be pulled forward; making it less likely for you to fall stright down o your butt.

Sometimes, we take the truck power, some big blox, and lift or pull with the force of 3 trux available from one (with 3x the run in trade of course). This puts more power available, and with an odd number of legs, opens up other 'steering' abilities to deal with the off balance tree. 1 line of pull will come from the truck; 2 will come from a diffrent angle, to fight a tree lean to the opposite side. Of course this lessens the straight to truck pull some as sum of the total force is used to pull off this center. We have top knotched and 'craned out' massive pieces of trunx from leaning over homes with this 'redneck crane'. Sometimes, at least around here, the lines are so low and high at the road that a crane will want to sit on the driveway (so they don't have to worry about the power lines), and the homeowner won't sign the damage waiver. Sometimes, there does seem like i have enough room to do other things, taking care/chances in rigging and cutting for 6-10+cuts or so; but then; i can opt to make one surgically calculated move with this if i choose. Sometimes that seems like a better bet, than 6+ rig sets, cuts, lowering etc. without hitting the roof. i blew an engineer's mind as we did this over his house on 3 diffrent trees one day, they were big, and had been running parallel over the roof for years; another had fallen recently on his roof.

i already posted a pic on how to lessen the fall distance on climbing above your tie in point. Also we always use lanyards, maybe even put a sling in too! But, would still like to see how it multiplies the force not to!

Sometimes we pull trees over; even that are going the right direction anyway, for a more meatier hinge to steer better and drop slower until the faces of the notch meet; giving the mechanical instruction to seperate. At this point the tree becomes a free agent; we just try to control it long as possible with a wide face and meaty hinge to reduce this force as much as possible. We get some very graceful falls, with minimal ground marking with this.

Pulling from the top, with maximum force, can overcome a backward (or side)lean that a wedge or man can't. But you have to wait till she is ready to fold over to judiciously apply force. But; even with all this, we still use pounded wedges in tandem with this pulling, to tip that tree into its face, wedges give fantastic lifting leverage, and fair safety factor for the tree sitting back. i inspect and read every hinge after a drop, scanning it to read its story on how controlled the drop was by the amount of torn fibre; then this info folds into all; for each subsequent drop.

Wow, JP; i've redirected the force of a truck pull, from the front drive around the garage, to the backyard, realigned it between 2 trees, then laced through an open pagoda; to a 3/1 pull to pull over a 15' huge, massive stump backwards without incident! The line of force looked like a cue ball tracing the path! Them pulleys, anchors and imagination really work wonders!

Well, errrrrrrrrrrrrrr, ummmmmmmmmm, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh when i come off a 60mph hiway, and slow down to 15mph to go thru a school zone; i feel like i am metering force, as i do the speed and gas! Also, specific timing for the application of that force, is essential here too, for it is exactly the same but diffrent! i can nail the gas to the floor from every stop sign, or come off the line slowly and smoothly; especially if i am pulling a grinder, trailer or tree.......

i just feel it is portable, dependable power; that we only use a lil'of; keeping plenty in reserve! We only pull when we can ease it over into the face without fighting the holding wood very much. i guess it can be tricky, but if you can learn to master this available, portable force...........


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## Rob Murphy (May 6, 2002)

Nickrosis 
To use an old friends expression "SAY WHAT!!"
Sorry, i couldn't help myself....
Yeh KC it would be a 2:1 Ma wouldn't it,the force at the top of the tree would be doubled??Mighten this in itself cause top failures?
Do you see any failures with this technique?
We also use the wide scarf ( face cut) to control hinge breakage and meater hinges help too.
Seeing that it is ideal to fall back leaning trees 180 degrees from their lean direction. The problems can really happen when winching is attempted outside these paremeters. Have you found that guying can stop hinge discintigration(barber chairing) in all cases?
PS My partner won't let us use the truck ,except staticly, as he is worried about rope abuse....he does all the splicing!


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 6, 2002)

Also........ i have been trying to edit the post to add this safety reminder. That even though i have said a lot; i would be remiss not too do this now, as it is safety and noone else has.........

That, in Nikrosis's picture of what he thought i drew/said; the pull would come from under the center of balance, so instead of tipping forward; the tree could have quite a tendency to come straight down/ fall back on the cutter.

This would be akin to a pull from your shoulders pulling/tipping you forward, as it is above your center of balance. But a pull from your ankles, could bring you down on your butt, even fall backwards after doing so. Whereby if that was the tree, somone/ something could get crushed by the stumbling gi-ant as she fell over. 

Same thing for topping out trees; a line 'pulling the top off you' should exert power above the center of balance to take leverage on that center of balance. This is because it will move from its center of balance; so if you go higher than the center of balance, you take leverage on it, and urge it to tip forward. If the pull is below the center of balance, the center of balance has leverage on the pull and the tree could decide to lag behind the pull forward in the right circumstances. Of course in either case, the distance from this center of balance to the pull will determine the resultant leverage, and the exaggeration of this effect, if this leverage is on your side or against you.

Also the rig could put a torqueing, twisting fall into this situation; even slide around.

edit, ya snuck up on me Murph!

P.s. "Z rig" of sorts Murph; either with the 2nd 2 pulls coming directly to the tree; or butterflied into the line. That makes a 3/1, this would only be on a log; with a knotch on the top back side; for the line to trace over, yet not slip out of as it pulls. In pine i will pack this cut with moss or branches, even used my old shirt at the end of the day once, to keep that dang resin out of my rope! Once again, that would be pulling from the highest point of leverage, at a cocked back position, pushing the tree as it braced it. Also, if the base was a lil split 'V' growth, i replace the clove with a half-hitch running bowline arraingement to form a constricting brace, with the increasing pull. Maybe bind it too!

We haven't broken a top out with this, because we are careful! Also, with a running bowline, if it started flexing forward, the pull remains totally at the same point. In the arraingement i propose, as the top flexes forward, less pull is on that specific point. As the top bends over out of the way, less pull is on it, as some of the pull just traces down the back of the tree and pulls from that even stronger point. Though we really don't put that much on it noticeably either. But that is the way i have 'calcualted' it in design, without numbers or formulaes; just feel and sense.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 6, 2002)

What they said Nick.

What Wallace calls a fish pole tie, through the croth and the bo'lin safely above the notch.

This also makes it easier to untie and pull the line free before limbing & bucking the tree down. Especial if you remember to put the knot on the back side of the fall. Experiance is a wonderfull teacher.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 6, 2002)

My response:


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## Nickrosis (May 6, 2002)

I'm thinking about this. My diagram doesn't apply to TreeSpyder's thing directly, but it is important, and I'll explain once I finish my report for school. 

Nickrosis


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## Nickrosis (May 7, 2002)

OK, the report is done and looking good. Thank you for the insults...I'm disappointed by the restraint that people on this board possess, or lack I should say.

The issue is pulling trees over with trucks. Until someone can prove it to me <i>quantitatively</i> that they know how much force they are placing on their rope, I will adamantly oppose pulling a tree over with a vehicle.

Please dispute the following points:
1. A truck's pulling power cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured by the operator without a gauge on the rope.
2. Using a technique intended to work as a back-up in case of the top breaking would create slack in the rope which the truck would quickly take up and shock.
3. Hinges are not designed to travel a great distance. The wood has been there for potentially hundreds of years, it could crush the side of the hinge closest to the notch, it could break on the side of the backcut - especially if it is thick or "meaty," and it could snap off completely if it moves too far (picture breaking a stick over your leg).
4. A sawyer should be able to fell a tree without a rope, if not, rigging is necessary until the tree is of a size that it can be dropped from the ground.
5. A rope must never be placed under a circumstance in which the wear or stress cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured.
6. No action should ever be taken where the rope could break.
7. An otherwise healthy root system may fail if such force is applied.
8. If the top were to break, an equal and opposite reaction would take place, sending it in the opposition direction of fall.
9. The truck could stall or suddenly move forward and no longer be the tool that is so heavily relied upon.
10. Routing a rope through multiple devices increases friction and points of failure.

Am I the only person who does not believe vehicles should be used? I am fully capable of defending my position, but I am open minded and willing to change it. By the same token, I hope that anyone reading this would respect me in the same way I respect them and would demonstrate that in their responses.

Nickrosis


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## Oxman (May 7, 2002)

Real 'lack of restraint' would have been a smack up side the head.

"I had no choice, I had to hit him"
......... Gene Murdock, quintessential Euc Man and winner of the first Western Chapter, ISA Jamboree, as reported in "Arborist Equipment".


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## murphy4trees (May 8, 2002)

MM,
Wouldn’t that middle vector be 1000 + 300= 1300 lbs, not 700?
In my thinking the 300# up and down have no effect on the side pull, so 1300# in middle vector is the same force as 1000# initial pull.


Nick,
I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope you enjoy a long, safe and happy career. And everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own way of doing things. And I agree that the vibe of this site has a tendency to come down hard and IMJ this limits the scope of discussion because people don't feel safe to share here.
That said... IMJ your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. No disrespect intended.
As far as truck pull goes you can guestimate the amount of pull by seeing what it takes to lift logs of varying weight. Heavier trucks pull more weight. They say a man can pull about equal to his weight. Anybody know what the ratio is for trucks?
When it comes to a choice of spending a day or two rigging vs. overloading a rope (past the 10% SWL), I'll overload the rope(s) every time. Even w/o a truck, a 1500 lb rope come along set with a 3:1 z rig= 4500 lbs. There is however no shock load, which makes a big difference to those fibers, as do the knots used.
It's practical, safer, and cheaper to replace the ropes. Also remember other professions use a 20% SWL.
IMJ It is critical that the feller and driver have good (visual) communication and hopefully a lot of experience working together. A local company totaled a new Volvo a few years ago, when the driver hesitated in the middle of the pull long enough for the hinge to fail, sending the tree down sideways. Ouch!!!
Glad to have this forum & God Bless All,
Daniel


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 8, 2002)

Murphy4trees writes:

"your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. "

The fact that someone has done something for years, has NO reflection on whether or not he has be doing it CORRECTLY for years!

Just to make my point, I know guys that get totally drunk everyday, then drive home. They have been doing it for years.


On the subject of the thread, I'm with Nick 100%. 
Sure, you can pull trees over with trucks, but it ain't safe, fast maybe, but not safe.
Suppose there was a tree leaning over something very valuable, say your fishing boat, with all your old Playboys and your beer cooler in it. 
You have two tree companies come to estamte removing the tree. One guy says he will throw a rope in it and jerk on the tree with his dump truck, while his buddy makes a cut. 
The second guy says they will remove some limbs on the heavy side, support the tree in two directions with guy ropes, and put tension on a third rope with a GRCS device. Then do a proper notch, and pull the tree in a slow, controlled manner.
Now, who you going to hire?

Regarding the drawing, you may be correct. The resultant angle of pull changes, but the force increases, I think. Anyone else?


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## murphy4trees (May 8, 2002)

Mike,
What about using your truck to move the boat? especially if you left your GRCS back at the shop.
D


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 8, 2002)

Ok, It's a $US15,000 bronze flamingo your wife inherited on a marble pedistal well anchored into the soil.

Shock loads degrade the life of a rope rapidly, if you are going to do this, are you keeping a diary and retiring the line after X number of over loads?


My feeling about trucks is that there are too many confounding variables, you can loose traction then have it jump up and jerk you.

There is no way in our buisness that we can do anything but make educated guesses as to what we are doing that is a given.

As for you small minded, petty people who have been sending Mr. Crawford nast emails. It is a good thing he did not tell me who you were or I would give yall a direct peice of what little mind I have left.

This is a place of OPEN discussion! Ribbing is one thing but we are here to share our experiances and learn from one another.

Whether it is Nick, Matt or any other younger memner of the group, if you think a responce is based in youthfull ingorance then use the oportunity to educate, and inform. 

So act your MF age supid!


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## Tim Walsh (May 8, 2002)

Interesting thread. It seems that most of the group is in violent agreement with each other.

Nick, keep up the good work. If you aren't making any mistakes, you aren't living. It is very easy to attack the mistakes that others make, but remember, if someone is trying to knock you off of the top of the hill, that should tell you something.

Most of us come to these threads to learn and to share what we have learned. As has happened before, and will most likely happen again, ego's and attitudes interfere with the learning process. 

I have received a barrage of insults and personal attacks on some discussion groups before. The best part is the reason why, I had asked a question based on one of Dr. Shigo's comments.

We can disagree, but there is no reason to be unprofessional about it. If someone makes a mistake here, it is not a big deal, especially if we can all learn from it. Better to make it here than in the field, remember death is forever.

I am disappointed that people are intimidated by Nick's age. Age doesn't guarantee wisdom. If you read more than one of Nick's posts you know that he isn't just some kid. Nick is very professional, he studies, he trains, he asks lots of questions, is extremely observant and very passionate about our profession. (By the way he pointed out and corrected a few mistakes that Dr. Shigo has made).

I would be honored to have Nick on my team any day.

Nick keep it up, we need you out there. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

TMW

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." 
-Albert Einstein


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 8, 2002)

How come no one sends me nasty emails? 
Lord knows I deserve them!

If not a flamingo, perhaps it's a permenent shrine, built into the ground, honoring Elvis. Decorated with all kinds of knickknacks collected from hundreds of trips to Graceland, all aranged in the shape of one of his sideburns.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 8, 2002)

Or one of those "Madonna in a bathtub" shrines you see all over the southside of Milw.


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## Dave (May 8, 2002)

In RI that's referred to as "Mary on the half shell", I suppose if you live nowhere near seafood it's probably not as funny.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 8, 2002)

I think having a seafood tradition would help

man i miss the fresh shrimp down in NC. The stuff they pass for Jumbo up hear is old bait!


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 9, 2002)

Gentleman let this table be round.

We are all used to being warriors against the odds in the field; commanding cooperation of giants -the largest living organisms to wander our earth. Wee seem to be a breed that locks horns with the bull, and thru conniving and determination of body, mind and soul; just don't give up before it does, ushering its nose to the ground with control and grace. As wee ants stand before these matchstix! (One of my favorites Murph!)

There aren't many like us, if you can't wave or nod passing another crew on the road a block from the job; and end up up side down in the air; Who ya gonna call? i'm sorry to say, that i know exacly what Nick is talking about; and long before now. 

All that aggresive energy, can be used in its place not hear. Here ye, can tip visors and toss these things around. Fold in things and views, see if they work for you.

Which is kinda how we use the truck, a gentle giant. We just brace the tree, walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. If it doesn't go easily, remove a lil more fibre, then usher it down. We don't bounce on the rope with the truck, or nail it to the floor. If you have a high leverage of pull, gently take the slack out of 120' of line, and pull forward 3-5feet, you really got something on it, unless it really has a lot of leverage against you. Of course that depends on the elasticity of the line, as to how far forward you go with so long a line. i just like pulling them into an open face earlier with one or two more rows of fibre on my side. 

i look at metering force all day; i look at rigging as making gravity powered machines, as i cut down into a hinge, i empower that machine, by metering how much gravity can pull on it as long as i can, once again we don't slam or bounce the rope here either. We set the load slowly down into the bracing of the line, and let it take it away. So i guess, i am always trying to read and calcualte the rope, all day; and this seems almost the same to me as the pull, only reversed.

We have taken out a lot of pines over lawns, drives and walks in succesion like this. With very soft landings. Like JP said the cutter can untie the clove easily if it is right at the base, on the back side. The next tree to pull can be being hitched to the truck as that line is being taken out by the cutter, the crew pulls it free.

i think if i can do that safely and competantly without any airtime; that that can be the safest and also most productive route. Not every situation lends itself to that.

If you are dealing with an older oak, you can punch the horizontal center of the hinge to eliminate the stiffest, oldest part of the hinge, and leave just the outside more younger, more flexible wood fibres to perform the bending of the hinge. This will also maximize the board feet, by less splintering of the widest end of the log. But, with this center pivot of the hinge gone, the pulling leverage of the outside corners of the hinge to adjust for side lean seems to be lessened. This is best done in good wood only, as you are eliminating some of the healthy fibre already that could be helping the machine of the hinge; which you might need all you can get in situations of rot/decay.

Peace.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (May 9, 2002)

Treespyder,
You managed to prattle on for a good page without addressing any of Nick's points, not that I don't enjoy your prattle.
You did point out:
*You have leverage.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*No air time is safer.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*You've done it with success on some pines.
So what.
*You can punch out the hinge.
I disagree that that makes the hinge work better, but if it does, it is still another invalid arguemnet.

If I read you correctly you, "walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. "
Why not tension the line some so when you cut in, the tree starts to move? That way you don't need to worry about the possibility of the truck stalling, the driver not responding, or whatever. Then you are also tesioning the line with the saw off so you can hear and see how the tree responds to the tension.

I see using a truck as a "Johnny Homeowner" technique like standing on a ladder to cut a branch off. Sure, you can do it, sometimes even safely, maybe even faster, but it is not something that can be done day after day, without having a problem, eventually.


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## murphy4trees (May 9, 2002)

IMJ (in my judgment) or IMO (opinion) is a statement of ownership. It means this is what I think; these are my thoughts, etc. That creates a distinction from a statement of fact, leaving room for others whom think differently. Making statements of fact such as this is the "right” or "correct" way can be very divisive. People have to line up on one side or the other. They either agree or disagree.
IMJ there are no absolute right or correct ways to do tree work. There are far too many variables and the science, technique and technology are constantly changing. What was considered proper practice yesterday is improper today. Everyone has their own way of doing things. So I AM glad to have this opportunity to learn and share with all of you. This site is great!!! 


As far as truck pull goes. I’d take my chances with the truck on the flamingo... the Elvis shrine I might have to rig. 
Yesterday I asked an old tree man, Peter, "What do you think about pulling trees over with trucks?" This guy is a master of common sense. His response “It’s unreliable". He's the one that told me about that Volvo incident. "It was a big truck, but the tree was bigger". He wanted to put a retainer line in the tree, but the foreman said no. A hard lesson.
God bless All,
Daniel


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## geofore (May 28, 2002)

Machines are not reliable enough all the time. I often use block and tackle to drop tall trees where they are supposed to land. Single block as anchor and double in the tree at least 2/3 up. Tailline off at an angle to get proper vector. 4:1 on blocks ( times the height equals the tourq on the hinge) in foot pounds.Use the angle between the anchor and tail line to keep the tree from drifting to far left or right. So long as you have tension on the tailline the tree will fall between anchor and tailline. Yes I do use a truck once in awhile, not often. 
Yes, after thirty years I can cut the trees to fall where I want them, could do that after two years of intense practice. I don't object to the use of block and tackle as a safety factor, if you have to place the tree inbetween lots of things use it.
Used it last week to drop a 67' pine which had to lean out away from the house 28' to clear the gutters and roof then swing back to land under the overhanging roof so as not to put the tree in the street and powerlines. High winds are the biggest worry for me. If I look out and the flag is strait out it is too windy to be in the trees today, but not too windy to cut trees with lots of clear landing zone.


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## Stumper (May 28, 2002)

Interesting thread! Man , the emotions got wrought up on this one! I have seen some tremendously stupid things done with ropes, chains, and trucks. I also have saved a great deal of time and risk by judiciously using one. The key is knowing what can be done and what cannot. Perhaps more importantly what can safely and reasonably be done. I try to avoid ANY situation in which I tread on the edge of failure.
Nick, I respectfully disagree with your forestry buddies analysis of rope use in felling trees. I have felled thousands of trees. I understand directional felling techniques and have pulled stunts like laying down markers ,driving stakes etc. Whenever a tree of substantial size is within reach of anything which could be damaged it gets a rope placed in it. Cheap insurance! It doesn't matter that I know I can lay it down safely. Ever have a freak 65mph gust of wind come from the wrong direction just as the tree is about to hinge over? Aaaaahhhhh the peace of mind provided by rope! I generally work alone. A dynamic line(100% nylon) pretensioned by B&T or truck provides a few feet of "take up" when making a felling cut. The tree will move slightly opening the cut while there is plenty of "meat" left in the hinge. Depending on the situation the cut can be deepened letting the tree continue into a fall or the wedge can be set and the Lone Tree Man can shut off the saw and tail onto the rope. All of this gets done safely day after day because of experience. The way to get the experience to do this sort of thing is to do it when it isn't necessary. If you experiment when there aren't going to be serious consequences if you miscaculate you have the oportunity to learn the techniques and the capabilities of your equipment. One rule remains inviolate for me: NEVER JERK Steady pressure produces predictable results. Aerial work has its place but it is by no means a zero risk method of removal. The best way is the safest way and sometimes that means using rope and mechanical advantage(0r even a wheeled machine_


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 29, 2002)

i must admit, i have to respect all the 'backwash' here, and am even more careful with this! There was a time we didn't do it because of a lot of the objections presented here. But grew beyond that, by constantly using everything around us to aid in each day's puzzle; with that truck staring at us!

Know how much you need it, and only tap that much from the gentle giant (truck). If a line has 7% stretch, and you stretch 4' pull on 120' of line; you're probably kinda safe........

The surprise or shifting wind scenario is realistic, as is pulling with a thicker hinge for slower, more directional felling, and human error on other calculations. A tree leaning to 2 o'clock of the same size and weight will fall with a meatier hinge on its own, so you can use a meatier hinge for straight verticals safely. The meatier the hinge, the more the back fibres of the hinge have to flex, this is where a horizontal center punch, can help to eliminate the stiffer, non-flexing, oldest wood- to leave only the younger more flexable fibres on the outside. I beleive Eric Sorenson came up with it in Sweden to maximize harvested wood by eliminating these stiffer fibres, and not letting them fracture up inside the valuable spar at its most valuable/largest end. It does eliminate fibre, so there must be plenty of healthy fibre left to make it safe. Also, effect of side holding wood for balancing the top is dropped as it doesn't have the center wood to leverage through.

We don't pull hard with the truck, but it is there in case! We don't bend the top over with the rope because it is not bowlined in, it is just in a superior leverage (less truck) position, that is also stronger by its bracing/lacing at the top. We also wedge from the back for the last tilt into the tightened line.

We only use it gently guys; like JP handling a 2 day olde baby!

Always practice anything new in non-critical applications many times.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 29, 2002)

>>We only use it gently guys; like JP handling a 2 day olde baby!

Look, he fits in one hand!


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## Stumper (May 29, 2002)

By the way, Geofore and others have mentioned the unreliability of truck and machines in general, There is nothing to say you can't use multiple ropes. Has anyone else out there guyed a tree so that it couldn't drift off line and pulled with another rope? The rigging is more complex since angles have to be such that the guylines will still permit the tree to fall where desired. Just one more thing rattling around in the bottom of the bag-of-tricks.


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## chad (May 29, 2002)

MIke what if you were using a truck that puts out 7000 foot lbs with the farmer running with a chainsaw.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 29, 2002)

Frequently use tow lines of force on a peice, Espcialy when using the GRCS. Pull, control and many times a tie on the but allso.

When I was in KC with the storm work I wished I had 2 GRCS so we could pick from t different points instead of just taking up slack on the control line.


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## chad (May 29, 2002)

Why not use a wench? ha ha


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## Stumper (May 29, 2002)

"why not use a wench.ha ha"
Because tree work makes my wife nervous.


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## rbtree (May 30, 2002)

Well, I have a winch, any wenches wanna winch 'er over fer me?! If two or more reply, then the decision will be: which wench to do the winchin'!!


Or how's bout a witchy woman....



.....livin it up at the Hotel California


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 30, 2002)

Chad, Mike said you're his wench


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## chad (May 30, 2002)

mike has alot of theories like his oil theory.


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## geofore (May 31, 2002)

I'm getting the feeling of that unexpected breeze from these yahoo's breaking wind over their wenches or winches.Only ever had one unexpected wind come up to ruin my day. Cutting a 93' tall Aspen planted on a spoil bank. Just got a new saw and wanted to try it out. The wind had been blowing down hill all morning so I thought nothing of cutting this one clean leaving no hinge and leaving it stand while I stopped for lunch. I was just starting on my second sandwich when the wind changed direction and that tree took off up the hill and took out over 30' feet of cyclone fence and downed 800' of power line. On my property and I own the wire and the poles. Never again cut a tree clean and leave it stand. Cost for that stupid trick.$1,000 to have the wire restrung. $250 to have the electric co. come turn the power again.$300 to fix the fence and I will not live down the embarressment of my stupidity not to look out for safety first. The saw worked great though. If only I had tied the tree off.

On using the block and tackle, I was about to let a new guy either prove he could cut a tree down or not. Got out 125' rope block and tied it into a 75' apple tree in very bad shape at his mom's place. Landing zone clear for 90' in all directions.Now he has to prove he can fall this tree were he says it will land. His nephews ages 5-7 are pulling on the tailine well clear of the the tree and I tell them don't pull till he starts to cut the tree. He is facing away from the tree to start the saw and as the saw rev's up the kids pull on the rope. He turns toward the tree as he picks up the saw and tree tree snapped and fell before the saw got close to the tree. We had a good laugh about that one, the kids pulled the tree down before he got to use the saw. The kids ran around the rest of the day thinking they were super hero's because they could pull down a tree.


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## Rob Murphy (May 31, 2002)

*Murph attempted refute*

1. A truck's pulling power cannot be quantitatively measured by the operator without a gauge on the rope. 
ANS: Can any pulling power be quantitatively measured with out a gauge on the rope?

2. Using a technique intended to work as a back-up in case of the top breaking would create slack in the rope which the truck would quickly take up and shock.
ANS: This asumes that the truck is pulling 'at speed' mostly U would pull gently using 'torque'.

3. Hinges are not designed to travel a great distance. The wood has been there for potentially hundreds of years, it could crush the side of the hinge closest to the notch, it could break on the side of the backcut - especially if it is thick or "meaty," and it could snap off completely if it moves too far (picture breaking a stick over your leg). 
ANS: Surely this depends on the tree species and the type off fibre layed down . I my expierience organic celluose constructions can be flexed to a point. Also the design off the falling notches( cuts) can assit this flexing.

4. A sawyer should be able to fell a tree without a rope, if not, rigging is necessary until the tree is of a size that it can be dropped from the ground.
ANS:This is simply not true!!

5. A rope must never be placed under a circumstance in which the wear or stress cannot be quantitatively measured. 
ANS: Wear and stress measurements in the field are mostly approximate estimates off loads over time backed up with visual inspections. Is that quantitative measurement?

6. No action should ever be taken where the rope could break. 
ANS: Agreed!!

7. An otherwise healthy root system may fail if such force is applied.
ANS:This could apply to any winching system.

8. If the top were to break, an equal and opposite reaction would take place, sending it in the opposition direction of fall. 
ANS:Sounds logical but is really a simplistic pseudo scientific description of 'a possible outcome' in the event of failure.

9. The truck could stall or suddenly move forward and no longer be the tool that is so heavily relied upon. 
ANS:Operator error or mechanical failure possibilities exist wherever tools are used.

10. Routing a rope through multiple devices increases friction and points of failure.*Ans* Srry ran out off room!!


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## FBerkel (May 31, 2002)

Good thread. Nick-- appreciate your inputs.


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## FBerkel (May 31, 2002)

I'm not sure if the attachment will make it through (first try at one).
I think there's a difference between running a tag line all the way up the back side of the spar, then over the top, and tying the running bowline on the backside near the top, and then over. It seems to me the the first scenario uses a greater part of the tension force to jam the tree straight down into the ground. This is what Mike is referring to in his vector diagram. But when the rope is tied up high, is this jamming-down effect the same?


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## Kevin (May 31, 2002)

Always leave a hinge, it helps control the fall of the tree.
Wedges and felling bars can be used and many arborists don`t bother using them for some reason.


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 31, 2002)

Would gently taking the slack out of a line, then pulling 4 foot forward on a 7% stretch line that is 120' long qualify as judicious pulling, ie. relatively safely gauging? Or 2-4 wraps on a PortaWrap, and pull till a man can't fight the slip so as to gauge? Or experienced eyes and feel, observance of all that and tree top?

i think the higher the leverage without breaking is best, snaking down the back allows this more times than bowline tecqunique. i might opt for a bowline pull on a well split fork at the top in some cases to get a straight/high leverage pull, calculating the approximate strength at the fork below, rather than the higher hitch points.

You could break a top out with either method, but snaking down the back allows self adjustment to some extent, for the flexing top would bend out of the way and the pull would come to further/stronger down if it persisted. On a bowline pull, the continuing pull would remain at the same point; which would be more risky. i Love self adjusting effects in machinery!

i think that in addition to that self adjustment, stronger, more centered connection of snaking the line down the back, and the easier release after felling by cutter (as JP reminded), that there is something else here. i don't know how to prove it, but i think that bend in the line wants to come out at the top, it wants to be straight, the more pressure that is applied; i think that helps the felling some how. Kinda like i see the clove at the base being pulled, and the bend at the top, pushing the top forward (with leverage?). This is how i came up with the self torquing rig in climbing actually, another crossover lesson! Also, as i witness it, all that is compounded by the line being in more of a cocked back position. Is that what you mean Mr. F.Berkel on vector study?; Whereby the closer you are to the tree, the more cocked back angle?

Always leave a free flowing (un-obstructed/cleaned face, allowing the machine to work smoothly), no crossed cuts (that doesn't perform some specific purpose, or isn't neutralized somehow) in sound wood. The reason for maximizing the leverage and pull here was to pull the tree forward into the face with more hinging wood, delivering into a wider face; both to lend greater control (speed / direction). We also pound wedges from behind to lift the tree into the face, as line is pulling top into the face. Then allow it to commit, then let the machine of the hinge gracefully usher down the leveraged mass; i get excited just thinking about all that power strategically controlled like a ballet of slow motion and flowing power! 

Very good Murph! Still think that center punching the older stiffer fibre out of hinge can allow more flexible, younger fibres to do this mechanix of hinging more positively. Also gives a nice gunsight for real critical lays, if it passes all the way thru to the back. Though this eliminates the fibre across face, so shouldn't be done so much in weaker, decayed varieties. Theoretically (i think) the tree will fold with about the same amount of fibres, per leveraged pull, they are just rearranged, this means that to replace the fibre across face, they are deeper in, requiring more flexing, bending over than front fibers. ie. flexxing them more as they bend over the front fibres, so should be really sound/flexible fibre for this trick. We practice on easy pines.

With, or without an input force of a truck, these methods are to maximize the leverage, security and hinging of these machine parts. 

The tree will give at the weakest point/ per leverage applied, whereby the root system gets more leveraged pull than the hinge, so you make the hinge the weaker point, to give first, per its leveraged pull at that point. So weaker rooting would get a thinner hinge, so that this mechanical fuse (thinner hinge) is scheduled to give out first, saving the root system .

There is another warning with root systems, dropping with more hinge control on speed, puts more pull on anchor (stump)during this part of the motion. For the stump is the anchor for this braking force, that controls the speed. Whereby; even a good anchor/ stump can shift slightly unseen underground, and bust entwined in its roots: wires & pipes if wrapped real tightly. All my liability insurance i've carried (luckily not used), doesn't cover underground damage. And that folds back into climbing, for if you use this extreme hinging on a preservation job(non-removal); you should do it leaving a longer stob, so the deeper fracturing of fibres doesn't run into the parent connection, from the stress of using the hinge more.

We use 4" blocks and 90 degree turns for our redirects in this, except for returning to load to com-pound pulling force on the load. We use hitching and anchoring at these points that are stronger than the line, and don't pull very far. With that, i believe the heat/stress factors of simple redirecting are neutralized. When compounding force, the redirects on anchors and loads are at 180 of course, but then with truck as input pulling force, that too is generous overkill, so barely really pull!

Maximize: Leverage, security and strength; then apply necessary pull to gently usher natural force (falling after commitment) at the right time...............


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## murphy4trees (May 31, 2002)

Spidy,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Agree or not with your points, it takes a generous heart to take the time and energy to verbalise some fairly compliated thinking, as you have. It's been a great thread for all. 
Keep drivin' safely! And thanks again.
Your brother in service,
Daniel


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## Stumper (Jun 1, 2002)

Treespyder, Thanks for another thoughtful/technical post. Just thought that I would share some technical data on bending wood. I too sometimes cut out the center of the hinge leaving wood on the edges. In some cases this is the best way to promote a controlled fall. However, the ratio of wood fiber is not one to one as you alluded to. If a given piece of wood requires X ammount of force to bend making the wood twice as wide will double the resistnce to bending. If the wood is made twice as THICK the resistance to bending increases 8 times. Center punching a hinge doesn't let us make our hinges a great deal thicker but it still is a useful technique for maintaining a balanced hinge and controlling the fall.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 1, 2002)

How did you come up with the theory that the older the wood is, the less suitable it is for hinge wood?
It is my understanding that heartwood is actually stronger and more flexable.

The shape of the hinge, in my opinion, will be stronger if it is one long thin strip across the stump, rather than a square area on each side of the stump.

Punching out the center of the hinge is a great way to stop the log from getting wrecked at the end, but it is definately not stronger, IMO.

When you pull with your truck, what size rope are you using?
Are you applying the presure on the rope before, during, or after the cutting?
Do you pull witht the truck forward or in reverse?
What is the specific advantage of the truck pull vs. commonly accepted methods?


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## FBerkel (Jun 2, 2002)

Spider:
Just seems to me that the tension force is coming from a direction closer to that from which you're pulling, when the line is tied near the top. Can't prove it.
I've used the truck pull (always backing up, to maintain visual, low target risk, sound appearing wood) on very rare occasions, usually late in the day, trying to get done. This may well show bad judgement, like choosing to drop rather than lower a branch that one time out of a hundred might strike the porcelein donkey ornament, but in a weaker moment...


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## FBerkel (Jun 2, 2002)

Oh, yeah, the part about bending the top: I understand what you're getting at, but how much are you actually bending, say, a two foot diameter top of a twenty foot tall spar? Or even a thirty foot? If you're going to such overwhelming force to insure that your (extra thick) hinge works, I think you do run the risk of eventually uprooting a tree, which could cause it to come down in the wrong direction. 
Appreciate the thought you've put into the subject.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 2, 2002)

Thanx a lot guys; but truly i enjoy the combined brainstorming of all, taking in other's experiences and testing them against my own. Specifically for me, that draws out these things that i have pounded deep, folding over on themselves; never quite assembling like this..........

_"There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and open a vein." - Red Smith_  

Though there wood be some reduction in the fibre count in a center punch (or holding wood 'triangle' for supporting side leaner's pull to the opposite side on the hinge's axis), as rear most fibres where worked more flexing over frontmost. But, i'm not sure that it would be 8/1; not sure if that is what is being stated Stumper Man. But, in consideration of both topics, i have found that a center punch seems to reduce the amount of holding wood control on some side leaners. It seems that the center 'post' you are punching out is needed to leverage that control of the holding wood to the lean on the same axis to the opposite side or something. Just thought i should toss that warning in...........

i think that the question of flexibility of inside fibers of hinge is going to be (like a lot of things) situation dependant. i was taught that 'real' heartwood was stronger, but i think that it is less flexible in trade. i kinda look for dryness of facial portions, imagining that the 'livelier' wood is more flexible. Sometimes the center looks kinda dryer to me, i imagine this is like 'bonier'- stronger - but less flexible as i come up with a strategy; inspecting the clean face cut. 

When using more controlled hinging, that depends on the flexiblity of the fibers to a max, this centerpunching can help in good wood. Of course, all this only makes maximum, witnessable sense delivering into a wide face, that would mechanically allow and test those flexing fibers. For by a wide facecut commanding that the flexxing fibres are not outrightly sheared free by the immense mass, momentum and leverage at the hinge slamming and closing early, then the flexxing fibers can work their magic through a wider arc.

i had some pines whisper me a lessoon that helped instill this about younger wood; a number of times; i had a pine swivel sideways somewhat. When i inspected stump for lessons on next cut (always do that, even in tree!), i would find a leathery stripe of bark line holding on one side and not the other, off balancing the pull right at the end. So, even there it seemed that the younger wood was more flexible. So now after cutting wide face; i circle the back of the tree, hinge corner to hinge corner. This eliminates this leathery stripe from developing,as i cut deeper than its incursion, but it also tests the straightness of the hinge & sawcut, tests the track for topical metal, and lays an even trail for the finishing cut. On that cut, i have more speed control, as i can go faster with that wood gone, as in center punching to back. i can always back off the gas to slow down, this just gives me more 'high' end.

Times that you rely on more fiber flexing for a given size and weight of tree is when it is leaning favorably 20 degrees rather than straight up. Where as the leaner is feeding into the pull of that jealous witch gravity, and will come over with a thicker hinge,as it could express it's weight and leverage in that direction earlier in backcut. Or when you use high leverage and pull to imatate that extra pull and move spar forward with the same amount of hinge as leaner. Or even lifting with wedge etc. into the face. 

All this is to bring down things more controlled and gentler. Reducing damage, sprung over limbs, buried limbs, climbing, time etc. Like calculating one surgical motion that can take the place of many more assembled ones of varying risk. Also for fighting some backlean circumstances by shifitng the balance into the face confidentally. It also can deliver a lot of brush at the road nicely as you schedule that to happen with bigger pull downs through better control!

Gotta get more ink....................


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## Nickrosis (Jun 4, 2002)

As far as the relationship between the strength of wood and it's age, type (sap/heartwood), and location, it all seems like speculation. Anyone know something solid about this? I'll try asking around....

Nickrosis


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 4, 2002)

After ignoring questions previously asked, Treespyder wrote this snip:

"When i inspected stump for lessons on next cut (always do that, even in tree!), i would find a leathery stripe of bark line holding on one side and not the other, off balancing the pull right at the end. So, even there it seemed that the younger wood was more flexible. "

The lesson I would get from this is that fibers on the outside of the log are able to peel down, not that they have any different strength or flexability. The fibers on the inside of the log can't hang on and peel down, they are surrounded by other fibers.

Bark on the other hand may have different characteristics, but that has nothing to do with whether or not punching out the center of the hinge makes it stronger.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 4, 2002)

WOW!

i'm sew sorry, as i wove on web and not everything got printed. But eye saw fit to answer all questions methodically. Actually, in depth, squeezing these things out from myself and assembling them to answer the diffrent queries that might result. Trying to trim back as i became self concious as to length, repetition, politeness while being comprehensive. But, a-lass; after all that the power flashed from a storm; and it was gone! So, revisiting all that and making previous post was all that i had the time and spirit for at the time. Also i was leaving room for other responses! i do that sometimes, back off to see if someone else would like to speak, sometimes waiting a few daze........... 

We don't pull everything down with a truck, sometimes don't do it for months, sometimes a few times a week. We just don't rule it out. Sometimes it is the quicker set up, less fatigue way to pull, needs no anchor, it is mobile power, present on job etc. It also has a wealth of power in reserve, quickly accessible in a pinch if right at the wrong time that mystery wind did catch ya wrong, or other miss-calcualtion.

i usually use 5/8" line on truck pulls, and go gently. We generally drive forward, with a man at 90 degrees to the drop watching me (i generally nod when the tree starts 'breathing' some), and top, while directing driver. Sometimes another man watching all, but specifically watching truck's path, so driver can specifically watch the previous man's command. Pre-stretching the line, set brake and brace tree, can take more time and effort manually, prior to even backcutting any. 

i think with the more power available you can bring down larger, more off balance things safer, with less air time. Basically by invoking a superior hinge to usher the drop. Even in climbing, sometimes i will have the guys pull down on the end of a horizontal rigged limb, pulling the limb into the facecut with more hinge, some times getting 180degress of hinging almost horizontally. We do it the same way as a takedown, by pulling on the end of the lever, so the hinge folds earlier, with more fibre, giving more support and braking through the arc the hinge ushers. This gives some control over direction and speed, as long as the hinge hangs on. 

So, having a wide face to allow a wider sweep, and a hinge that can achieve that too, can impact the ground less, with the most directional control; in the air, or on the ground. Sometimes to compound this, we use 3' tall tight stacks of brush at the calculated initial contact points. Sometimes, knotching the top of the first leading levers on the removal, then slightly undercutting them. The idea is not to make them dangerous, but to have them fold at so much force, dissipating it. This keeps them from being loaded springs trapped under tons of force, digging into the ground, absorbs a lot of shock; while maintaining their pull in the favorably in the felling direction! Sometimes if we want the head to roll left, we can set it so that an even fork hits the ground first, and the right leg ends up being the longer of the 2 after folding, serving to the left, of course a block or face dutchman can help some here too.

With more positive hinge control, we can also lessen shock by not laying into the lean as much, whereby, that would be feeding directly into gravity. So, less impact i think on the same drop! Even without a truck as the pulling force, we do try to maximize the leveraged pull, and the hinging to reap all these benefits. With more pull, we can get more hinge control, sometimes to reach this, we use the truck.

Sometimes i will bring a driver to the sideview of the tree and show him we are dropping this straight up and down stick, it is 20' lever. If we are pulling with 50#, that would put 1 ton of force at the hinge on a balanced load. It will go over! But we want to bring it over earlier, with a thicker hinge for slower fall. So he can put together a 3/1 while i quiz him on it, then bust hemaroids with 2 other guys, as i take my time to cut the tree, or he can use the 'mule' to pull it. If he wants to do that, and he pulls too hard, he will hand pull all future trees over by hand; with 2 other cussing guys........ So the only way he can screw up is to go too hard! Really, just setting the line and pulling (bow stringing) sideways can be quite powerful too.

We don't really try to bend the top, that kinda got started with discussion of bowlining a ring to the top, or lacing line over it to snake down back of tree. Insamuch that you could bend with either hitching setup, but, the bowline would continue pulling on the same point, while on a flexing top there would be more forgiveness and strength in the other method. But, we do look for movement at the back of the backcut,and the top of the tree, for earliest percievable motions of each during cutting, as they are strategically the most leveraged points of each to witness this readily.

Whether in a self torquing rig in the tree, or lacing the line over and down the back spine of the tree, i think the pull goes to the knot/first hitch. That means that, just like a line going over your head, down your back and tied to your ankles, would push your head down and try to pull you forward from the ankles flippinng, so does the same force act on a tree! Though it might not be able to flip a tree or limb around, it is a diffrent pull than a line pulling you under your armpits forward! i think that bend in the rig, or top of the tree, wants to 'dump' its bucket as it straightens out, and this is more apparent with an acute angle; ie closer to the tree. i think this delivers somehow additional urging and force, but don't know how to examine, test and prove it, beyond observation. i think that the more acute the angle, the more pronounced that is, like in the example of standing closer to the tree, with line high; another one would be as the line snakes over the top over a rear leaning flared point. This seems to be like cocked back to me (more acute angle?), and the the line seems to want to open out and be straight more.

The bark strips that came off with these pines i spoke of, seemed most notably strong and leathery above all else to my forensic observation, that is why i offered it. In the centerpunch hinge, we might be weakening it some, but we are after flexability of younger fibre. i watched an Eric Sorenson film produced by Stihl so many times about how the center fibres where stiffer, that i beleived these 2 experts. i think it is more pronounced in some trees. When pushing flexability and depending on hinging it to the max, i consider that imagery that they offered, for it seemed to fit with some of my experience. This included the leathery, younger strips of pine; philosophy examples of flexable saplings making it through storms, where stiffer trees didn't etc.

Hope i answered 'em all that time..................


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## trooper (Jun 12, 2002)

*hey you there...*

talk to me Eucgirl


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## Nickrosis (Jun 25, 2002)

*Dr. Shigo on Fiber Strength*

I faxed this to Dr. Shigo on June 17th.

Dr. Shigo,

Recently, I attended your student workshop at the Sugar Shack, and I was also with the students from Stevens Point, WI when we visited you in March. My dad, Perry Crawford, and I greatly appreciated the time you set aside for us with your workshop.
Now, I have a question that came up in an online discussion at ArboristSite.com. Someone I know from Florida has been passionately promoting the use of trucks to pull over trees that are leaning in the opposite direction. He believes he knows how much force he is using with the truck, and he believes that by punching out the center of his hinge and making it thicker, he can control the fall of the tree.

He punches out the center and makes a thicker hinge because he considers the heartwood to be less flexible, so he cuts out that by plunge cutting with his chain saw. The sapwood he thickens because he considers that more flexible. What do you think? Is heartwood less flexible or weaker? Why? Because of its age, or the anti-decay agents it contains? This is something that I’ve been pondering for a while and figured you would be the one to ask!
____________________________________________________

Today, I received a response from Dr. Shigo. He said, and I'm quoting it entirely,

"Heartwood - It would be impossible to answer because every tree species is different, and some people still call discolored wood, heartwood. Heartwood in white oaks would be less flexible than the very thin sapwood. Heartwood does contain extractives that would make it less flexible."
____________________________________________________

I think I posed the question clearly enough, but that is what I asked and that is what he responded with.

Nickrosis

P.S....Trooper, This is not a dating service, although Darin just said he likes matchmaking.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

Never say never.
Here is a good example of a situation that IMJ called for a truck pull.
Details to follow if the pic posts.
God Bless,
Daniel


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

Whoops.. pic is too big for the screen. What to do? Hope you all can maximize and see it well enough.
So the deal here is that the leaning tree has uprooted, and is resting on a 2" branch in adjascent ivy coverred oak. Block is set in far oak, with ladder. I could have rigged line with MA and pulled it by hand, but that would have been slow. And preventing any possibility of damaging fence would require a retainer line set back in woods. To me that was a serious safety issue as it was tick season and a walk through the woods scares me. 
So I put the porta wrap on the hitch of a 150 Pickup (automatic)and gently pulled away, taking tree into woods. I seriously doubt that it took more than the 770 lbs. SWL to pull that tree over and IMJ the truck was the safest, fastest, and easiest way to go.
There were no good trees around to lower from...
What would you have done?
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## Kevin (Aug 24, 2002)

Daniel,
I`ve taken trees like this one using a rope fastened to the base of one like you have but instead of a block I use a rope winch on the bottom of the tree and winch the removal tree just snug.
Cut a wide open face notch and leave a healthy hinge when starting the back cut.
Start the back cut, winch, wedge and back cut but don`t cut all the way through to where the hinge breaks, just winch it over.
The notch should close and the tree will remain attatched to the trunk unless it is too far gone.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

When i started this thread, i was looking for that better pull to force a bigger, meatier hinge by pulling the tree into the face earlier in backcut than normally. Others have pointed out to me (and made me remeber long ago b4 taming this) about how easily some excited person can pull too hard with cataastrophic results; i still do it from time to time, but with even more caution.

i think this pull too, could be better with truck, in so much that, i could see more chance of failure in an already compromised situation with the slower methodology of wedging and winching. That the inertia of continuous flowing motion could keep the tree on track better with the right timing.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Aug 24, 2002)

Using a truck just opens up a bunch of things that could go wrong, but to each his own.
It almost looks like addding another rope would allow you to guide the tree right down through the fence. By adding another rope you could control the tree such that you wouldn't need to pull at any certain speed. 
When I start rigging a tree, and I'm thinking that it has to be pulled really fast to prevent disaster, I stop and use a different tactic. Things can happen to screw up the plan, for example, just when it's time to pull, the neighbor walks right behind the truck to see what's going on, the truck stalls, the wheel spins...


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

i kinda agree, i tend to try to minimize force and speed on most things, even pulling on a hinge at the right time is purposefully challenge the hinge more so tree tips with more hinge and comes down slower, not to really use the racing truck to pull throungh the radius of the tree pivoting on the hinge quickly and scared.

i advocate walking out the 'track' for sound ground, making sure noone can interfere, getting line taut and easing more pressure on hinge at right moment to easily bring more force on it than by other means, so then truck eases forward 4-6' or what ever, than might be able to stop if job is done and truck is clear; as tree steers down slowly on thicker hinge. i steer at the stump like Oxman spoke of in tilted triangle hinge {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4861} , though i guess you're not supposed to. But, in good wood. with a perfectly clean, uninterupted wide facee, commited moving tree on a healthy hinge feel good about it.

Then we went to dutchmans in that same thread Ox started, where he uses rushing force of tree to steer through forcing the faces of the hinge come together more violently, then using that maximized force to steer the tree by one lower face side of the hinge being higher than the other. Actually, that is more powerful (and riskier, he must be really doing this a lot to confidentally control it)) than the triangle we talked about, but i belive he combines the 2 to compound them! The tilt in the triangle he pro-poses, i think makes load stall, force build, then rush at once, usherring that impact into maximizing the force of the 2 facecuts slamming together throwing it from the high step to the low one, the thin end of the triangle hinge releasing earlier thaan the thick one and allowing this..

So, just as there, sometimes IMAO the inertia of force can be used to steer on a certain track. In the pic to me it looks like it might stall pivoting to face, and is not this massive thing that is already moving, so i thought of increasing that quotient as imediate reaction to seeing it. Smaller diameter, less hinge area, maybe rot. i think important to get it moving and it moving real good, so it doesn't get dis-track-(ted).

i see what MM means; but just have to argue to keep him on his toes! Mostly i try to rule out as much massive force as possible, but i never rule out looking at that flip side to see, if this is that 1 time it is called for. Hence, not totally ruling out truck that is sitting there in my face all the time, as portable power and anchor, as i toss the puzzle of what is best and all its permutations and risks.


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## Stumper (Aug 24, 2002)

Murph, The pic doesn't necessarily show everything but I have a couple of ??. Why did you rig your pulley so high in the 'redirect' tree?(I try to rig as low as possible in order to avoid leverage against what I want to hold without failure.) Also, was it impractical to rig higher into the tree you were pulling? Finally, rather than take the fence down etc, did you consider roping the top to the tre it was leaning against and working it by blocking from the butt?( A tricky op that I prefer to avoid but workable in some situations.) I'm not trying to sound too critical-I know there are things I can't see. Just want to get a good analysis.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 24, 2002)

nice polite non attacking style.

i assume line is high to make over fence during pull, i was thinking it should have been guy wired back for support, hitch for guy over redirect pulley for max. anchoring along 'bar' between anchoring of roots and guy.

Like your mechanical analasys.


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## rbtree (Aug 24, 2002)

I also use a truck to pull with when it seems the best option. We employ all the cautious procedures so well explained by the spidey man.

Kevin,

What rope winch do you use? I have the simpson Capstan winch, 034 Super powered. it would have done that tree pretty handily.


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

Ok more details. My customer owns to the fence. Woods are neighbor's. Leaner was soooo long dead that there was no trusting anything about it. It was resting on a 2" branch which was barely holding. I wasn't going anywhere near that tree if I could avoid it and certaibnly not with a chainsaw. Lowering couldn't be trusted because the tree could just fall apart from any small shock. I Set the pull line using a 24' ladder set in adjascent oak. Reached over ever so gingerly to tie off. That was the scariest part of the job. The roots were not holding.
from a practical stanpoint, pulling tree into woods saved a lot of time and trouble cause there was no clean-up. My customer was retentive about her grass. 
So to me the choice was set a retainer line and rig using MA or set up block and pull with truck. Now a retainer line and MA system would have required exposure to disease carrying ticks in those woods. That may not scare you if you haven't been sick... but it scares me 'cause I have. PLus the truck was just easier and faster and in this case there was little chance of overloading past SWL.... even if someone punched the gas, which of course I didn't. The tree just didn't have the wieght or strength to resist the pull.
That said... A rope winch would have been the ticket. A nice little toy I Am sure. I always question if spending the money on such items is worth it 'til I buy, and then after a few weeks I wonder how I ever survived without it. 
God Bless All,
Daniel


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## murphy4trees (Aug 24, 2002)

See pic of roots
Daniel


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## Stumper (Aug 25, 2002)

Yep! Definitely a candidate for transplantation.


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## Kevin (Aug 26, 2002)

I`m using the "armstrong winch" (Maasdam Rope Puller).


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## rbtree (Aug 26, 2002)

Can-do,

No more power, is my opinion. but it spreads out the load a bit better. Must have a solid crotch for it to go through. other benefit is not having to isolate the pull line, helpful when the line is set from the ground.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Aug 26, 2002)

Maasdam power puller i believe it is!

Can do that was : {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4074} And yes IMAO, if that spar had a pulley at the top and you pulled straight down, then there would be 2x pull on top, the most leveraged position for pull. It also braces from the back, the more line on the back=the more ruber band to prestretch. Now from that 2x pull, you have to subtract your efficiency losses of friction on wood (rather than pulley) aaand the angles of pull not being pair-allel unless you are going to stand at the base and pull!)

No 2/1 is perfect, so you always werk to minimize the losses.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 28, 2003)

*Re: Dr. Shigo on Fiber Strength*



> _Originally posted by Nickrosis _
> *I faxed this to Dr. Shigo on June 17th.
> 
> Dr. Shigo,
> ...



i've continued to center punch the face of some trees without hard leans to either side of the fall. Especially darkened, drier, older 'looking' wood in face inspection (for rot, crossing face cuts etc.) previous to back cut, and continue to see more flexible fiber results on the outside bands of fiber preserved in the hinge i think (hard to reset again and do in same conditions differently). i belienve this can give a greater radius, of more controlled felling. Also, more flexible fiber would not tend to compress up as much and force more intense loading of the rear fibers? Preserving more strength in hinge by more working fibers/ less arching stff fibers over stiff fibers!.

Then force as much leverage to move hinge as possible , and cut slow (so that force of leveraged pull makes slow powerful hinge instead of weak/ fast one, for there is that trade off here too....!).

Not for every occasion, not for hard leans to the side IMLHO (undermines built up hinge pressure against side leans i think).

Orrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:


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## Stumper (Sep 28, 2003)

Talk to a self bowyer. The sapwood is stonger in tension in many species-that tends to equate to more flexible. On the other hand thin is the key to bending without breaking. -The way to make weaker, less resilient, more brittle wood work in a bow is to make it THIN and wide. Some woods can be narrow in width and thick in cross section and function well for archery (Osage, Yew, Lemonwood (Degame) and to a lesser degree Hickory. Almost any wood will make a functional bow if it is made thin enough and strength(drawweight) 'added' by making those thin( in cross section) limbs wider. Centerpunching is very useful in preventing fiber pull in some species when harvesting for milling. It is OKAY to do in many situations. However, when the way that wood breaks is analyzed (back to our private neutral plane discussion) the reality is that centerpunching actually makes hinges that break sooner in the felling process. It feels good to have some wide straps on the outside-we feel intuitively that it is less likely to tear the hinge and roll out , causing a loss of control. In reality what happens is that the thicker hinges are simply more bend resistant so we have to apply more pressure to iniate movement-once it starts though... the thick hinges break loose and relinquish their controlling influence EARLIER in the tree's fall. Leaving the heartwood and making the hinge thinner is actually the better course but it doesn't seem that way on the gut level.:angel:


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## TheTreeSpyder (Sep 29, 2003)

That is some of what Stumper let me into about flexing wood in his PM i spoke of.

In an ol'Erin Sorenson film, Mr. Sorensen describes the center punching being Swedish devised to save wood from fracturing up the center of the most expensive lumber end on felling, saying that it fractured earlier, and could splinter up inside wastefully. Then went on with how he thought that it made for softer fall becase of this.

i'd kinda go with some species variation here. i find more 'dramatic' (tree sometimes holding on all the way to ground) with local pines. Limited with oak, maybe every thing happening so fast, that especially in oaks it is as Stumper says, just too quick to catch/evaluate; and doing so much of all else to help etc...

In cases of darkeend, dry, part rotted center; i tend to punch it out (except if fighting side lean); to kinda know what i got, and that it is at maximum flexability. Pines seem to favor it too here. But besides fiber type stand differently (higher, more centered C.o.B. and less trunk width to control charachteristically).

Many things to consider. Hinge thickness is certainly good point. But, as less fibers are needed in the more leveraged loading of now rear fibers (rearranged from center punch), and only punch out 1 - 1 1/2 bar widths, how much thicker is hinge really? (Okay i'm no dummy depends on original lenght of hinge). But with the short cut out, and perhaps less than 1/2 the fibers repositioned (depending on how fat hinge is, as to how much leveraged now back row fiber is, the more leveraged the position, the less fibers needed?). Also, there would seem to be more fiber leveraging in the stiffer fiber (unpunched)center...........

Lots of things to consider.............!

:angry2: Plenty to start trouble :Eye: 'round hear! :Monkey:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 13, 2004)

Some good subjects covered here. Glad to have you fine people to argue with.


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## murphy4trees (Jun 14, 2004)

> the thick hinges break loose and relinquish their controlling influence EARLIER in the tree's fall. Leaving the heartwood and making the hinge thinner is actually the better course but it doesn't seem that way on the gut level.



Hi Stumper,
Are you absolutley sure of this and where did you learn that??

You sound like you know what you are talking about... Who is going to understand the charactersitrics of wood fiber better than a bow maker?

That said there seems to be plenty of big egos giving bad info around here... At least enough to give me pause...

I would really like to see some experimentation to verify this sort of thing.

That "doesn't seem that way to your gut" is what I call counter-intuitive... I've seen it time and time again in this work, so that gets me thinking you got it right...

Big Jon was just telling me how important it is to not leave a back-leaners hinge too thick.... Sounds in line with your point as the hinge has to move quite a bit and maintain full control before freefall, thus requiring a lot of flexibility...


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## Oxman (Jun 14, 2004)

Don't make that hinge too thin.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 14, 2004)

What does the hinge thickness have to do with the butt comming back?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 14, 2004)

Hey Mike, not you Mike, i get to mess with you all the time!

Y'all should check out Oxman's site and article collection he wrote for industry rags.

i think a strong enough hinge to resist butt coming back is needed as part of preparing for the equal and opposite reaction of felling. Though i have never trimmed one down to that point, and Oxman might be making stronger referance to tree size i don't see.

With Stumper's strategy i haven't had any problem. i don't think he meant to whittle hinge to nothing, but rather instead of having a short across face hinge that is fatter, he feels the mechanical properties of the wood have the strength but bend easier arrainged in a longer thinner pattern, but not paper thin. That might hold more true, for more brittle woods that you have a flexxing/hinging problem with anyway. The idea of the back cut is to reduce the hinge's leverage against pull to target; while maintaining leverage against sidepulls. If there is no shelf or ramp on the bottom face, even extra caution should be taken not to weaken hinge so much to target, that it was also too weak to pushes back from target axis.

Or something like that!
:alien:


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## wiley_p (Jun 14, 2004)

After removing all the brush, and removing most of a stick, on any speicies if there is diameter at the butt, and say 20'-30' in the air, then I always bore the center holding wood out. Its quite simple really, has nothing to do with heartwood, elasticity, or any of that crap. less wood to break means the now balanced stick will wedge over easier, and for those who refuse to employ wedges, the ropw pull iss easier, and the corners are still intact, guiding stem to the face.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 14, 2004)

i think per forward pull efforts of lean + wedge + line (pulls/pushes to target not to sidelean or to counter sidelean axis of hinge); that in the equal and opposite reaction just as much resistance to forward fold will be encountered at first folding.

If it is easier or harder from there would take more examination i believe; for the named forward to target forces must collectively equal one single unique number, and their must be a matching to that unique quanity, or falling scarcely below at first folding.

With sidelean, and a tapered hinge against the sidelean; the same resistance in the hinge is met at first/matched folding; but the arraingement of the fiber that mke up the total resistance are arrainged more favorably to controlling the sidelean i think.

A hinge as a carabiner of similar shape is going to have a strong axis (the long one in hinge to fight sidelean axis) and a weak axis (the thinnner one, in hinge to allow spar to fall to target). i think the lean must be calculated to how it addresses each of the support axises of the hinge. That is more real, for it gives 2 dimensions to the equation; the 3rd dimension is the height of the Center of Gravity in the lean itself. Those are how the 3 dimensions of the load address the hinge i think.

Or something like that,
:alien:


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## Stumper (Jun 14, 2004)

Daniel, Fair questions. Let me start by saying that different woods have differing properties and special situations require special techniques so my statements aren't to be taken as absolutes in every regard. About the wider and thinner being "better" (better meaning maintaining hinge integrity further into the fall). Some of this I learned through practical experiments. Some I learned from reading technical manuals and tests regarding bending wood when my dad got into bowmaking. Here's the skinny. Firstly-we know that wood is not a homogenous material- two pieces of the same species or even from the same tree will not behave precisely the same. Therefore, I'm going to speak about averages. I'll give you some examples that you can test to see if they seem to be accurate.
Grab a clear eight foot pine 2x4. You can bend it a little by hand. Now grab a clear pine 1x4 the same length-you can bend that a LOT more. Which is stronger? The 2x4. Which will bend the furthest before breaking? Assuming no defects and similar grain orientation in the boards-the 1x4. Why? Because fibers (in this case wood fibers) can only withstand a certain amount of elongation before rupture. In any piece of bending wood we have fibers being stretched over the outside of the bend and fibers on the inside of the bend are being compressed (at some point in the middle there is a neutral plane where the transition from tension to compression occurs). The thicker the wood the further the outer fibers are from the neutral plane and the greater resistance they will provide to bending-just a little bend takes the "slack" out (there isn't any slack of course but the loading increases the tension on the outerfibers very rapidly) The way the ratios work is thusly: Doubling the width of a piece of wood will double it's strength. Doubling the THICKNESS provides 8 times the strength,. Test your 1x4 against a 1x8 and against the 2x4. In this scenario "strength" equates to resistance to bending or ability to support a load. What happens when the bending starts though---A 4X4 is very strong but it won't bend far before it cracks and shatters-once the outer fibers let go a cascade effect usually occurs-the 2x4 will bend a little way before it ruptures, the 1x4 further still, a piece of veneer will let you roll it up full circle-but it isn't very "strong".
Wiley is absolutely correct that boring out the center of his hinge makes it easier to get moving-provided that the hinge thickness remains the same. The issue is how we want the hinge to behave.-If we want x number of pounds of resistence to bending in the hinge then we can bore out the center and leave the hinge slightly thicker(remember the 8x1 factor-if we bore 16" out the center ofa 32" wide hinge that was going to fold at 2inches thick then the straps left on the sides only get to be 2.25" thick to provide the same initial resistance. On the other hand Wiley could narrow his hinge by about 1/8 instead of boring out the center and make it just as easy to iniate movement. Once movement begins the thinner hinge will resist tearoff further into the fall. If you want to hang a spar at an angle on a narrow face cut without tearing off ...the way to do it is with a thin hinge-not a thick one-the thick hinge starts breaking almost as soon as the spar starts moving. a Thin but Wide hinge will frequently just hold the spar on the stump until you cut some more fibers! 

Enough holding wood should be left for control but, given that, the thinner and wider across the face a hinge is the better it resists rupture and premature tear off. I don't advocate cutting hinges down to paper thinness. I do advocate cutting a hinge to 1.5 -2"thick rather than leaving then 2.5 inches thick and boring out the center-unless fiber pull on a sawlog is a factor.:angel: 

Clear as mud?


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## Tim Gardner (Jun 14, 2004)

Stumper, very good post. Well worth the read. Thanks.


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## Stumper (Jun 14, 2004)

Thanks Tim.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 14, 2004)

Well written Stumpy. Every now and then you post something completely reasonable. On these occassions when you behave totally out of your normal character I agree with you and am overcome with awe at your great intellect and perspicuity.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *...great intellect and perspicuity. *




What's that last word?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jun 14, 2004)

Hell if I know, ask Stumper.


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## Tim Gardner (Jun 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *What's that last word? *




It a fancy $2 word that says you can understand what he writes.


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## Stumper (Jun 14, 2004)

Perspicuity=clearness of expression. Fun word since it tends to inhibit what it is purported to express.


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## Stumper (Jun 14, 2004)

Tim beat me to it but forgot modern priceing . It is now a $5 word. Please send cash to...........


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 14, 2004)

Stumper , that was better than the first time you presented here or in messages! A wide depth of knowledge crossing the commonalities of what we deal with further then the borders of what we can experience! And i am still digesting and weaving these things deeper into what i set up; and especially the neutral plane of fibre that you pointed out must exist between compressed and tensioned wood, as i immediately went to there for the next property to exploit in hinge (why not? )....

i think the tapered hinge keeps a general 'low profile' and only places the extra fibre where needed. in brittle, but solid wood, where ya can't depend on the pull force as much, for it comes from the hinge's flexability, i adjsut the other side more (in solid wood) and play with the way the faces slap for help too. Making almost a safety, the faster the tree 'flys' and is trying to get away from me (hinge strategy not working slow and nice), the harder the faces slap, so the more adjustment there etc. Covering and self adjusting to the failure or the succes of the hinge pull, the frace push steps in. i've been playing with a lil 'punching' of hinge though, not so much extra move to face to hit center of hinge, but a diagonal punch from back to front on thin side of hinge, to leave just a 'clump' of hinge for pivot, and force more fibers to fat side of hinge. Then finish backcut from fat side of hinge, bring so close, then cut across some instead of straight to target, to (i think) get the rest of the hinge thinner; and i think there is better control power if the release is more across hinge (sidelean conditions) like throwing the release force directly against sidelean rather than release force throwing towards target as hinge folds. Direction is always important, even here i think, the direction of the 'release force' and the way it steers.

Or something like that..
:alien:


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## rumination (Jun 15, 2004)

Thanks Stumper. You opened my mind up a little more as to the nature of wood. I think I just learned something important. I love it when that happens!


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## murphy4trees (Jun 15, 2004)

If what stumper says is true... and it makes good sense the way he explained it.... There must be an optimal range of hinge thickness.... my guess is it would be about 10% of DBH... How about that .... now we know why.... I'd still like to sees ome experimentation in this area.. not sure how to set up a test..


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## Stumper (Jun 15, 2004)

Daniel, Optimum hinge thickness as a percentage of trunk diameter-thought provoking. However, I think that we will find that optimum hinge thickness will remain under 2.5" without much regard for diameter or species.-The reason being the tendency of thick wood to begin rupturing wih a minimal bend. I posted above that I advocate hinges 1.5-2" thick. That is true but incomplete-I frequently use thinner hinges. I Usually use a 1.5+" hinge simply because I prefer to set my saw down and iniate movement with myself away from the stump. 1.5-2 inch hinges usually hold a balanced tree of moderate size until pressure is added to a tag line or a wedge is started (but moderate pressure will move them). If I'm just cutting 'till it goes or using a wedge but no pull line then I may cut the hinge down to .75 inch or even less. Hinges must not be made TOO thin. Paper thin/veneer thin hinges can collapse under the weight of the tree and relinquish all control. The question then becomes "How thick must a hinge be to withstand the pressures on it and not rupture until it is committed to its line of fall?" The answer is: "Not Very!" Compressive strengths of various woods vary widely but even relatively soft woods have longitudal compressive strengths in the thousands of pounds per suare inch range. (For example: Juniper can be compressed from the side with your thumbnail but longitudally it withstands about 6000 lbs per square inch of crush.) Big trees become somewhat self regulating since a one inch hinge in a 36"diameter tree still has thirty six square inches to resist crushing. In fact if total hinge collapse were a risk factor then wide, thin hinges would still beat thicker centerpunched hinges due to greater total area-In actual fact it is a non-issue so long as we don't foul up and cut our hinge down to nothing. Large diameter trees help us in another way also. If the trunk settles back,closing the kerf, a large tree will actually stress the hinge less than a skinny tree because the movement at the hinge will be less-the trunk moves fewer degrees in closing the kerf due to the greater depth of cut. 
Most of us have seen trees that started moving and followed the face with 3 inches of hinge still left but in most cases thinner is going to be needed unless a great deal of pressure is being placed on the tree in the direction of fall. Thin hinges hold the trunk on the stump longer. Thin hinges resist barber-chairing. Thin hinges are GOOD.:angel:


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## ptar (Jun 15, 2004)

Nick typed:

Multiply this force by the height of the tie-in point (47 ft). The groundman created 4,258 ft-lbs. of force at the notch.
---------------------------------------

To be accurate, this not a force but a bending moment.

"The groundman created a *moment* of 4,258 ft-lbs. at the notch."


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jun 17, 2004)

i guess that upgrades my terminology of "first flexxing of hinge"!

But i think that none the less an important moment. The changing form standing to moving. i think that all the line pull before is pretty much a waste, save to stand ready to force the hinge stronger at that point in time. If no stall, i think line pulls after this moment weaken/speed hinge movement/support. i think this is a way that wedgeing to same direction can be more helpful, as it pushes to this moment, then stops (for tree lifts off wedge and push stops).

Of course at the notch (face) i think is actually at hinge. Within hinge i think that the support of the tensioned fibers x leveraged distance from pivot will equal the leveraged force of tree and your line pull. That is the tensioned/stretched/pulling fiber area of hinge matching the loading. But then the compressed portion of hinge(across the sea of Stumper's neutral fibers), acting as central pivot balancer for the leveraged load (tree and line pull) vs. the support (stretched fibers in hinge) to inherit the down pulls of each, but not side pulls of each(?); given any lean. 

So if we said by way of example that all pulls were down, not forward or to the left etc.; it could be said that the hinge loading was 3x of that of the {existing tree leverage + line pull leverage}. For the strethed hinge fibers would have to match the loading to stand still under load, there must be this balance, movement comes at the upsetting of this balance, as tree will seek to be lazy and find another balanced, resting point. The compressed part of hinge would bear the weight of both legs of pull to it (load and support) like it was a pulley in the center of 2 balanced pulls. But....

Enter next variable... Due to the fact, that the CG of the tree, and the line pull having more leveraged distance to the compressed pivot of fiber than the counterbalancing/equivalent support (pull of tensioned fibers); the stretched fibers must have many times more pull to make up for less leverraged distance across stump than to height of line and CG. So, i think that places many more X the force in hinge; the hinge not getting enough credit, as the matching proposed previously is only an approximation of 1/2 of the compressed region of hinge's work it does.

So the compressed portion still has 2x the downward pulls of leverage from lean and line, the stretched fibers have to have more power of resistance to balance against lean and line making compressed patchof fibers inherit the downpulls of both. :: Due to less leveraed multiplier on support side of equality than the load side, the stretched fibers must make up for the loss of the multiplier in higher pulling power than load side i would think.

We ask much from this wooden machine! So much that the hinge is a single use machine (generally) that is used till shorn and discarded giving all it could to the point of it's own demise.

Or something like that
(work in progress)
:alien:


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