# So what's the current Two stroke oil favorite for



## clemsonfor (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm not trying to start an oil war or super long post but I know there is a good chance I do.

I need to buy some more and want to know what folks are useing. Several years back I used some bel rat, the. Uses a few quarts of amsoil, then got some Lucas but quit when someone told me it left their says dryer and less oily residue than other worse oils so I quit useing it. I got a qt of Raiseman semi syn that I just used up last I mixed. I am going to have to use the last of the Lucas that I have untill I buy something else and was wondering what folks are useing these days.


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## Huskybill (Aug 19, 2021)

I use husky 2t oil in everything that’s 2t. I stick with the manufacturers oil.

On the dirtbikes it’s maxima super synthetic blend for nickasil cylinders and maxima 927 for castiron sleeves, castor synthetic blend.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 19, 2021)

Before those I posted I had used we real quarts of the husky xp plus or whatever you could buy in black bottle with blue label from Lowe's. It's semi synthetic. But I had several well known guys that were and may still be here and also on another forum we all probably know tell me that stuff was terrible and coked up saws worse than anything they have used. I quit it after that. Don't want to deal with that even though I didn't think I had a problem with it up till that point .


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## Huskybill (Aug 19, 2021)

I run 38:1 mix, I think 50:1 is too oil lean.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 19, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> I run 38:1 mix, I think 50:1 is too oil lean.


I run 32:1. As do the folks who I was talking about.


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## OM617YOTA (Aug 19, 2021)

Oh good, we were due for another oil thread.

I recently found out Yamalube has an air cooled oil. If I needed oil, I'd probably give that a shot.


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## lone wolf (Aug 19, 2021)

I been using Amsoil for many years nothing has blown up yet. Tree service owner operator 45 years.


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## Ittybittyfitty (Aug 19, 2021)

lone wolf said:


> I been using Amsoil for many years nothing has blown up yet. Tree service owner operator 45 years.


Which one, dominator or sabre?


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## lone wolf (Aug 19, 2021)

Ittybittyfitty said:


> Which one, dominator or sabre?


Sabre.


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## Bango Skank (Aug 19, 2021)

Stihl synthetic in the grey bottle.
I buy 6 packs of the 1 gallon for 50:1 makeup, but use .8 gallons of ethanol free. Should get me somewhere around 40:1 I think.


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## Wildman1024 (Aug 19, 2021)

Amsoil dominator fan here. But lately I have switched to the VP pre mixed 40:1. The stuff stores forever and doesn't destroy carbs and fuel lines etc. It's worth the extra money to me. Set it and forget it.


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## Czed (Aug 19, 2021)

Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil 40/1 


At least 8 gallons through this 372
The tree monkey turned me on to this 4 year's ago.


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## Franny K (Aug 19, 2021)

I have been using Amsoil sabre pro in all my two cycle and four mix equipment. There are ratings now ISOLGED and jaso??? should say in a modern owners manual. In honesty I used Gulf and Sunoco in quarts from gas stations for years with no problems. No high revs with no load I heard years ago seems to work.


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## Franny K (Aug 19, 2021)

Czed said:


> Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil


That isn't showing up at the Schaffer's website. 4 cycle marine diesel seems the closest to boat. I found bar and chain oil.






Industrial Lubricants, Fuel Additives, Greases, and Fluids | Schaeffer Oil


Schaeffer Oil manufactures hundreds of industrial lubricants, fuel additives, and synthetic motor oils to meet the virtually endless individual needs of our customers.




www.schaefferoil.com


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## Czed (Aug 19, 2021)

It's readily available








Schaeffer's Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus 2-Cycle TC-W3 (6 Quarts) #706 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Schaeffer's Supreme 7000 Synthetic Plus 2-Cycle TC-W3 (6 Quarts) #706 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com






Franny K said:


> That isn't showing up at the Schaffer's website. 4 cycle marine diesel seems the closest to boat. I found bar and chain oil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Huskybill (Aug 20, 2021)

I gave my son a new poulan wild thing about 20 years ago. When he bought a house. He had brush piled up the size of a small three bedroom ranch house.
He used his left over super maxima 34:1 dirtbike mix. I thought this saw wouldn’t last, today it still runs. It makes me think about what’s more important the brand of oil or the mix ratio?


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## Jonny Quest (Aug 20, 2021)

Klotz R-50.
40:1 mix ratio.


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## SawTrash (Aug 20, 2021)

Husky LS+ 50:1 Wouldn't have a clue whether it's better or worse as a lubricant but by trial and error found it makes my 2 stroke motors' exhaust smell least objectionable.


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## OM617YOTA (Aug 20, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> It makes me think about what’s more important the brand of oil or the mix ratio?


Tuning for whatever you're running sure is more important.


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## Squareground3691 (Aug 20, 2021)

Motul 800 2T Factory Line 100% Synthetic Off Road 2-Stroke Engine Oil 40:1


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## Huskybill (Aug 20, 2021)

Nothing smells as good as the castor oil for older two strokes. The 927 maxima is a castor synthetic blend.


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## LoneOak (Aug 20, 2021)

3oz Klotz BeNol + 3oz Klotz R-50 mixed with 2gal of E30 = 44:1


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I run 32:1





OM617YOTA said:


> Oh good, we were due for another oil thread.
> 
> I recently found out Yamalube has an air cooled oil. If I needed oil, I'd probably give that a shot.


I saw that. I almost bought some off Amazon. I was thinking I saw a lot of folks used that but I couldn't remember.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

Czed said:


> Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil 40/1
> View attachment 925184
> 
> At least 8 gallons through this 372
> ...


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

SawTrash said:


> Husky LS+ 50:1 Wouldn't have a clue whether it's better or worse as a lubricant but by trial and error found it makes my 2 stroke motors' exhaust smell least objectionable.


That's the same oil that many including a well respected saw builder told me is the worst and cokes up engines. Like I said I used it for several years, quarts of the stuff without issue. After several said that I quit. The guy doesn't seem to have brand loyalty and also has torn more saws down in a week than I will in my life.


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## cscltd (Aug 20, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> That's the same oil that many including a well respected saw builder told me is the worst and cokes up engines. Like I said I used it for several years, quarts of the stuff without issue. After several said that I quit. The guy doesn't seem to have brand loyalty and also has torn more saws down in a week than I will in my life.


If you were using husky oil at 32:1 it will choke up your saw,
as far as saw builder saying it is the worst is probably more of a bias against
I like it when guys use 32:1 and/or tc-w oils, it was just more repairs and new sales.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

cscltd said:


> If you were using husky oil at 32:1 it will choke up your saw,
> as far as saw builder saying it is the worst is probably more of a bias against
> I like it when guys use 32:1 and/or tc-w oils, it was just more repairs and new sales.


My saw is tuned for 32:1. But no I have no coking issues. Not a single problem, no fouled spark plugs, nothing. I'm not a tree service guy or anything. Nor do I live in a subdivision and run a pint of mix though my Poulan in a year. I use a decent amount of mix a year though.


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## Czed (Aug 20, 2021)

I'd use supertech Walmart oil before Stihl or husky oils 
I've never had to Dremel out residue in a supertech run engine 
Or had stuck rings with it.


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## SawTrash (Aug 20, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> That's the same oil that many including a well respected saw builder told me is the worst and cokes up engines. Like I said I used it for several years, quarts of the stuff without issue. After several said that I quit. The guy doesn't seem to have brand loyalty and also has torn more saws down in a week than I will in my life.


Apart from my saws I run that Husky oil in my brush cutters and various other two stroke motors on rural acreage. Oddly enough none of my motors seem to have "coked up" and they get a fair amount of use and I do my own meticulous maintenance. Maybe your saw builder friend gets "coked up" a bit too often


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## CentaurG2 (Aug 20, 2021)

Cant believe I am replying to an oil thread. Good old smurf juice (amsoil saber 50:1) or stihl ultra 50:1.


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## Northerner (Aug 20, 2021)

I had a saw apart the other day that had been run on BRP premium skidoo oil. It didn’t look very nice on the inside, I definitely wouldn’t recommend that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

Czed said:


> I'd use supertech Walmart oil before Stihl or husky oils
> I've never had to Dremel out residue in a supertech run engine
> Or had stuck rings with it.


There some recent reviews from folks that said it seized their engines. On supposedly ran a landscape type biz from the sound of it. I mean unless he started that morning I assume he knew how to mix oil??? I always take those comments with a grain of salt, like they put 2 gallons instead of 1 with the oil or they leaned it out or it was coked up from a restricted air filter running out rich.


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## ericm979 (Aug 20, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> Nothing smells as good as the castor oil for older two strokes. The 927 maxima is a castor synthetic blend.


Redline is close. I use their AllSport which is a low ash synthetic oil, at 50:1. I have also used it in off road motorcycles. The engines look good when disassembled. Saws are mildly tuned, having a small fraction of the HP/CC of off road motorcycles. They do not need the same amount of oil.

MLM is just another way to rip people off thus no Amsoil here. Even if I could know for sure I was buying from a real dealer I don't want to encourage the company.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

SawTrash said:


> Apart from my saws I run that Husky oil in my brush cutters and various other two stroke motors on rural acreage. Oddly enough none of my motors seem to have "coked up" and they get a fair amount of use and I do my own meticulous maintenance. Maybe your saw builder friend gets "coked up" a bit too often


Not a friend but I read posts he does. Anyone here knows who it is I am sure. No it's not the builder that got coked up and screwed a bunch of people. Like I said I never met the guy, actually did business with him for a small transaction, but I sold him some things. 

Anyway I don't see why the guy would lie. Again I also said I had used many quarts of the stuff without issue.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 20, 2021)

I have heard really good things about red armor echo oil. It's on Amazon by the gallon for a good price that still is many years of oil for me and I'd rather not spend $60 today on oil. I also like semi synthetic having heard that the dino oil base sticks around longer on parts when a saw may sit up for expltended periods.


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## sean donato (Aug 20, 2021)

Klotz super techniplate, 40 to 1.


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## Jeffkrib (Aug 20, 2021)

Isn’t the rule of thumb and FD rated will do the job just fine? I’ve been using Stihl Super and Ultra but just bought some Motul 710 and Mobil 1 racing 2T. Haven’t used them yet, I’m going to try a few different FD oils and stick to the one which smells the best.


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## lostone (Aug 20, 2021)

Squareground3691 said:


> Motul 800 2T 100% Synthetic Off Road 2-Stroke Engine Oil 40:1


Same, I started out at 40:1 but I have moved up to 50:1 and haven't seen any difference but I haven't put a ton of hours on the engines since going to 50:1.

I ran Castrol 927 (Love the smell of it when running a saw) for years and never had an issue, the only thing I didn't like about Castrol was the fact they didn't put dye in it so you had to be careful. I ended up getting lamp oil dye so there was color to my mix and I couldn't accidentally straight gas a engine.


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## Fatherwheels (Aug 20, 2021)

Jeffkrib said:


> Isn’t the rule of thumb and FD rated will do the job just fine? I’ve been using Stihl Super and Ultra but just bought some Motul 710 and Mobil 1 racing 2T. Haven’t used them yet, I’m going to try a few different FD oils and stick to the one which smells the best.


I tried the Mobil1 2T, it did not burn clean for me at 40:1 on a fat tuned saw where Echo
Power Blend did better, just saying, maybe a good oil at 50:1 or for those who like to run on the edge of whats safe.


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## MontanaResident (Aug 20, 2021)

I find that there is no difference. I am using up the last of some Husky oil, then I have several synthetic Stihl I will use exclusively from then on.


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## cookies (Aug 20, 2021)

schaffers or vp @ 40-1 neither smell bad, smoke or have carbon/ash buildup issues. I Like both, schaffers is blue and vp is red when mixed making it easy to distinguish once mixed. The stihl in the orange bottle isent half bad, makes decent power but smokes/stinks. vp is the cheapest and is easy to find but the schaffers definitely has the thinnest viscosity in cold temps so I save it for winter.


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## atpchas (Aug 20, 2021)

No love for Bailey's WoodlandPRO Synthetic? I've been using it for years and find it entirely satisfactory and less expensive than just about all the alternatives.








WoodlandPRO Synthetic 2-Cycle Engine Oil Mix (12.8 oz Bottle)


Synthetic 2-Cycle engine oil is all the rage these days, and for good reason. It burns cleaner and lubricates more efficiently than traditional virgin




www.baileysonline.com


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## NorthernMaverick (Aug 21, 2021)

Been running Valvoline Multi purpose 2 cyl oil @ 32:1. Saws are 2 - 372 xp, a 562 xp & a 550 xp. Haven't blown anything up, nor choked anything up. Using a little over 10 gallons of mixed fuel a month, so if problems were to come from our setup, I would think it would've happened by now. YMMV.


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## Canyon Angler (Aug 21, 2021)

Mobil 1 Racing 2T Synthetic




(Auto Zone was selling it half-price when they discontinued it about 10 yrs ago or so, so I carted off all of it. )


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## Kevin661 (Aug 21, 2021)

I worked for belray for 4 years before they closed and our lab bought thousands of different products from competitors ue used a 4 ball test A weight and pressure test and dynamic runs . On several dirt bikes . We were always as good the only oil that was exceptionally good was amsoil . When we closed we were allowed to take what we wanted I have maybe 20 cases of belray 2t . Much of our oil and grease was specified in tested by Lakehurst New Jersey Naval Station also we did things like make the grease for the catapults on the aircraft carriers and so on and the fuel for the predator drone so I was fortunate enough to get that and that's all I never run in anymachine . I recently bought a ms661c m and I was curious if running 42 one will mess up the electronic tuning doohickey I'm more of a carburetor guy. If you have any questions about will if pie remember the results I will tell you honestly about different wear patterns and different testing we use but truthfully Amsoil oil and belray oils are top notch but they closed the 2 stroke blending plant in New Jersey for taxes that were too high


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## Jeffkrib (Aug 21, 2021)

Canyon Angler said:


> Mobil 1 Racing 2T Synthetic
> 
> 
> 
> (Auto Zone was selling it half-price when they discontinued it about 10 yrs ago or so, so I carted off all of it.)


Did the American 2T have a used by date? The stuff I have comes out of Singapore and has a 2 year shelf life.


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## Canyon Angler (Aug 21, 2021)

Jeffkrib said:


> Did the American 2T have a used by date? The stuff I have comes out of Singapore and has a 2 year shelf life.


Never noticed an expiration date, though I never checked with a magnifying glass. Works fine. Smells betta.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 21, 2021)

atpchas said:


> No love for Bailey's WoodlandPRO Synthetic? I've been using it for years and find it entirely satisfactory and less expensive than just about all the alternatives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I don't have any complaints other than I wish it came in quart bottles.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 21, 2021)

Kevin661 said:


> I worked for belray for 4 years before they closed and our lab bought thousands of different products from competitors ue used a 4 ball test A weight and pressure test and dynamic runs . On several dirt bikes . We were always as good the only oil that was exceptionally good was amsoil . When we closed we were allowed to take what we wanted I have maybe 20 cases of belray 2t . Much of our oil and grease was specified in tested by Lakehurst New Jersey Naval Station also we did things like make the grease for the catapults on the aircraft carriers and so on and the fuel for the predator drone so I was fortunate enough to get that and that's all I never run in anymachine . I recently bought a ms661c m and I was curious if running 42 one will mess up the electronic tuning doohickey I'm more of a carburetor guy. If you have any questions about will if pie remember the results I will tell you honestly about different wear patterns and different testing we use but truthfully Amsoil oil and belray oils are top notch but they closed the 2 stroke blending plant in New Jersey for taxes that were too high


I think a lot of the ported saw guys are running 40:1 in the 661 and have been since they became available years ago. I remember them saying that 32:1 was too rich oil wise for them after reading about them. For a few threads years ago.


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## sundance (Aug 21, 2021)

Canyon Angler said:


> Mobil 1 Racing 2T Synthetic
> 
> 
> 
> (Auto Zone was selling it half-price when they discontinued it about 10 yrs ago or so, so I carted off all of it.)


I did about the same. My stock is just about gone so I'll be looking for a replacement soon. Thinking Amsoil Dominator.


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## Coolbreeze (Aug 21, 2021)

Haven't seen many people say it but I run Echo Red Armor. Never had a problem and seems to do a good job.

Sent from my LM-X410PM using Tapatalk


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## Canyon Angler (Aug 21, 2021)

sundance said:


> I did about the same. My stock is just about gone so I'll be looking for a replacement soon. Thinking Amsoil Dominator.


I'm thinking Motul 800 Synth


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## GoBigRed (Aug 21, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> Tuning for whatever you're running sure is more important.


Now that’s about the finest words of wisdom I have read on any oil thread.


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## Squareground3691 (Aug 21, 2021)

Canyon Angler said:


> I'm thinking Motul 800 Synth


Been running it for years great oil !!


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## Kenskip1 (Aug 21, 2021)

Well, I may as well make a contribution to this one. Amsoil Saber at 32/1 for over 18 years. I have never fouled a plug or had any oil related problems. I will stick like epoxy with this brew.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 21, 2021)

Coolbreeze said:


> Haven't seen many people say it but I run Echo Red Armor. Never had a problem and seems to do a good job.
> 
> Sent from my LM-X410PM using Tapatalk


Yep haven't seen much echo but last I was reading this oil stuff consensus was that red armor was top of the line.

I'm leaning more to buying a gallon of red armor and be done with it. I was hoping to go with a semi syn oil but may go full syn.

When I did run amsoil I ran Dominator.


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## MacAttack (Aug 21, 2021)

I am using Echo Power Blend at 40:1 in everything. When it's gone I might try their Red Armor.

In the past I've used whatever I had whether it was for air cooled 2 strokes or not. Castrol 2t, Pennzoil snowmobile oil, Klotz Techniplate, Valvoline 2 stroke... never an issue with any of them. Many of those years using "whatever" a lot of the time I was using my old Mini Mac 30, and that saw still has tons of compression.


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## aokpops (Aug 21, 2021)

Amsoil saber in all two strokes 80 to 1 runs very clean . I run Amsoil in my Harley I never put a temp gauge on it . Seems to run cooler I used Moblie 1 before . I enjoy the bike a lot more .


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## clemsonfor (Aug 21, 2021)

aokpops said:


> Amsoil saber in all two strokes 80 to 1 runs very clean . I run Amsoil in my Harley I never put a temp gauge on it . Seems to run cooler I used Moblie 1 before . I enjoy the bike a lot more .


I'm sure it runs really clean at 80:1


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## John Lyngdal (Aug 22, 2021)

Amsoil Sabre at 40:1 mixed with ethanol free fuel here.
But... Nothing smells better than fresh castor oil mixed fuel running a two stroke engine or worse than rancid old fuel mixed with castor oil.


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## NorthernMaverick (Aug 22, 2021)

aokpops said:


> Amsoil saber in all two strokes 80 to 1 runs very clean . I run Amsoil in my Harley I never put a temp gauge on it . Seems to run cooler I used Moblie 1 before . I enjoy the bike a lot more .


Is that a joke or a typo? Can't imagine a saw screaming 14k rpm on a 90° day with the oil mixed 80/1. Somehow I don't see it having a long life.


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## John Lyngdal (Aug 22, 2021)

NorthernMaverick said:


> Is that a joke or a typo? Can't imagine a saw screaming 14k rpm on a 90° day with the oil mixed 80/1. Somehow I don't see it having a long life.


Welcome to an oil/mix discussion.


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## NorthernMaverick (Aug 22, 2021)

John Lyngdal said:


> Welcome to an oil/mix discussion.


His saw, his money. Heck, mix it 100/1 and see how high it revs.


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## OM617YOTA (Aug 22, 2021)

aokpops said:


> Amsoil saber in all two strokes 80 to 1 runs very clean . I run Amsoil in my Harley *I never put a temp gauge on it . Seems to run cooler* I used Moblie 1 before . I enjoy the bike a lot more .


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## GoBigRed (Aug 22, 2021)

well, modern two stroke race bikes run amsoil at 100:1 all the time. Granted, those engines are water cooled, but there’s no reason a saw couldn’t run that ratio either. oil has come a long way since the old 20:1 smokers. 

but again, to each their own.


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## John Lyngdal (Aug 22, 2021)

Run a saw under heavy load with TC-W3 mixed fuel and the heat load will exact it's toll.
Been there...Done that.


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## quantico (Aug 22, 2021)

I have used amsoil for decades on chainsaws and leaf blowers and all my chainsaws. I think its a great oil to use. My outboards. All 25 to 100 hp always seemed to sound better and run smoother with amsoil.. 
I keep some stihl full synthetic around in a pinch. And I only keep gas around for 3 or 4 months and use it in my truck and start over with fresh gas and oil. Old fuel is a bad idea on an expensive chainsaw...or even a cheap one...


lone wolf said:


> I been using Amsoil for many years nothing has blown up yet. Tree service owner operator 45 years.


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## quantico (Aug 22, 2021)

M O B I L ...


aokpops said:


> Amsoil saber in all two strokes 80 to 1 runs very clean . I run Amsoil in my Harley I never put a temp gauge on it . Seems to run cooler I used Moblie 1 before . I enjoy the bike a lot more .


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## MacAttack (Aug 22, 2021)

(Doing budget)... "If I could just use half as much oil in my $600 chainsaw, I could make ends meet...."

(Finds oil that claims it can be used 100:1)

" AWWW HELL YEAH!"

I wouldn't run less than 50:1 in ANYTHING....what is the benefit??


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## dando127 (Aug 22, 2021)

amsoiil saber with a little dab of dominator, a little interceper, a little seafoam and a little marvel mystery oil. I call it my super mix. I have been using it for a couple years in chainsaws, weed wackers and old snowmachines. I start at 50:1 with the saber and bring it to 40:1 with the "additives". Its probably overkill and a waste of time, and I like it......


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## motorhead99999 (Aug 22, 2021)

I run castor 927 in the summer. Ams oil dominator in the winter. 

but that’s because I have cases of it from the dirtbikes I no longer have


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## unknwn (Aug 23, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I have heard really good things about red armor echo oil. It's on Amazon by the gallon for a good price that still is many years of oil for me and I'd rather not spend $60 today on oil. I also like semi synthetic having heard that the dino oil base sticks around longer on parts when a saw may sit up for expltended periods.


I just added a -new- CS-352 to my stable since I liked how light my neighbor's 310 seemed. Decided to feed it that Red Armor from it's first tank full.
We'll see how that works out.
Been running that Stihl (nearly $3 per tiny bottle) stuff since its so readily available & convenient to whip up (better rate by the larger container-go figure !).


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## bwalker (Aug 24, 2021)

GoBigRed said:


> well, modern two stroke race bikes run amsoil at 100:1 all the time. Granted, those engines are water cooled, but there’s no reason a saw couldn’t run that ratio either. oil has come a long way since the old 20:1 smokers.
> 
> but again, to each their own.


Not by anyone who knows what the heck they are doing.


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## SimonHS (Aug 25, 2021)

Has anyone used the B3C Ethanol Shield oil? The spec looks good - FD rated, protects against ethanol harm and stabilises fuel mix for up to a year. Sounds ideal for infrequent use. Great not to have to dump stale mix. We can even get this oil in the UK, in different packaging.


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## bwalker (Aug 25, 2021)

SimonHS said:


> Has anyone used the B3C Ethanol Shield oil? The spec looks good - FD rated, protects against ethanol harm and stabilises fuel mix for up to a year. Sounds ideal for infrequent use. Great not to have to dump stale mix. We can even get this oil in the UK, in different packaging.
> 
> View attachment 925981
> View attachment 925984
> View attachment 925983


It's not FD rated.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

NorthernMaverick said:


> Is that a joke or a typo? Can't imagine a saw screaming 14k rpm on a 90° day with the oil mixed 80/1. Somehow I don't see it having a long life.


They advertise it to be used like that. Burns cleaner they say, saves you money on oil. Personally I don't have an issue with coked up saws and your not saving that much on oil to trust their non certified oil and their research with your $1200 saw!!

But those that do trust and run it with good results , I hope you continue to achieve those results for a long time.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

I needed up buying a gallon of Red Armor off Amazon for about $60 with tax shipped to my house. My local dealer told me I had to buy the case and not just one gallon of he ordered it. So he didn't play ball. I am just going against what I have heard about synthetic not leaving a good enough film for storage or 6 months , 12 months etc and hoping this will be fine. They don't make this oil in quart containers. I was going to buy a few quarts to soften the shipping blow, but by the time I bought a few quarts from HL supply or baileys or Amsoil I was more than half way to buying the RA oil and I have been wanting to try it for a few years so I just went ahead with my gut and bought it .


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## bwalker (Aug 25, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> They advertise it to be used like that. Burns cleaner they say, saves you money on oil. Personally I don't have an issue with coked up saws and your not saving that much on oil to trust their non certified oil and their research with your $1200 saw!!
> 
> But those that do trust and run it with good results , I hope you continue to achieve those results for a long time.


Most of the deposits in a two cycle come from the gasoline and not the oil. Pump gas isn't designed to vaporise properly in a two stroke. That's why the dedicated canned fuels burn so clean.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

GoBigRed said:


> well, modern two stroke race bikes run amsoil at 100:1 all the time. Granted, those engines are water cooled, but there’s no reason a saw couldn’t run that ratio either. oil has come a long way since the old 20:1 smokers.
> 
> but again, to each their own.


Well those 16:1 and 24:1 ratios were running regular sae30 weight engine oil. You are correct dedicated two stroke oil is better. But is it that much different than 20 years ago(maybe a few more) when 40:1 was the recommendation from Stihl ond others? Epa stuff forced the 50:1 move if I am not mistaken.


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## The Shooters Apprentice (Aug 25, 2021)

I’ve been running the amsoil Sabre for as long as I can remember mixed 48-1 and won’t use anything else. Very clean burning. And have never burned up a engine. Run it in everything from saws, to snow machines, to dirt bikes.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

SimonHS said:


> Has anyone used the B3C Ethanol Shield oil? The spec looks good - FD rated, protects against ethanol harm and stabilises fuel mix for up to a year. Sounds ideal for infrequent use. Great not to have to dump stale mix. We can even get this oil in the UK, in different packaging.
> 
> View attachment 925981
> View attachment 925984
> View attachment 925983


Red armor I believe claims to stabilize fuel for 2 years. All Stihl and husky oil does a year. I don't leave my fuel around that long. I use up 2 gallons in a few months usually maybe 6 months. If it's a year old it's going into a mower and buying new.


----------



## RedneckChainsawRepair (Aug 25, 2021)

Try some of this. Like $7-9 for 16oz


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

JeremiahJohnson said:


> Try some of this. Like $7-9 for 16oz
> 
> View attachment 926101
> View attachment 926102


I thought about getting some of that from Walmart in the small bottle if I needed a hold over oil. I had enough Lucas left over to make a gallon of mix right now. I went with the Echo Red Armor, heard nothing but good out of it. And even that oil comes in $14 or more a quart when you figure it all out. I doesn't more up front but cheaper in long run. I won't buy oil for years now .


----------



## Mad Professor (Aug 25, 2021)

16:1


----------



## OM617YOTA (Aug 25, 2021)

Oil is cheap, engines are expensive. I don't see the point trying super lean oil ratios in my two strokes. I'll spend the extra $0.42/yr on oil, I'll make that up in one evening burning wood instead of oil or electricity.

I change my car and truck oils frequently too, around 4k miles. Oil is cheap, change it often.


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 25, 2021)

John Lyngdal said:


> Run a saw under heavy load with TC-W3 mixed fuel and the heat load will exact it's toll.
> Been there...Done that.



Repaired a 661 that was ran on TC-W3.

seized rings


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> Oil is cheap, engines are expensive. I don't see the point trying super lean oil ratios in my two strokes. I'll spend the extra $0.42/yr on oil, I'll make that up in one evening burning wood instead of oil or electricity.
> 
> I change my car and truck oils frequently too, around 4k miles. Oil is cheap, change it often.


I'm with you. I really don't see the point or added benefit of running 80-100:1. If you burn a quart of oil a year you save have the price of a quart of oil. What's a qt of amsoil cost? $15 so you save $7. What benefit do you get running that ragged edge to save $7/yr on 2 stroke oil?


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

Dieselshawn said:


> Repaired a 661 that was ran on TC-W3.
> 
> seized rings


Your blade is on upside down!!


----------



## Dieselshawn (Aug 25, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> Your blade is on upside down


not my saw sir.


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## clemsonfor (Aug 25, 2021)

Dieselshawn said:


> not my saw sir.


Tell the guy your fixing it for he might want to flip it over, it might not run right with that arm upside down!


----------



## Fatherwheels (Aug 25, 2021)

Dieselshawn said:


> Repaired a 661 that was ran on TC-W3.
> 
> seized rings


Looks well stuck, bar oil might have been cleaner.


----------



## bwalker (Aug 25, 2021)

Motherboard said:


> Looks well stuck, bar oil might have been cleaner.


Run a motor hot on marine oil and that's what you get.


----------



## iceclimber (Aug 25, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> Huskybill said:
> 
> 
> > I use husky 2t oil in everything that’s 2t. I stick with the manufacturers oil.
> ...


----------



## Dennisthemenace (Aug 26, 2021)

Amsoil Sabre or Red Armour 40/1,maybe a drop more for the 084. 
Red Armour hard to get in Australia though


----------



## CNYCountry (Sep 3, 2021)

Jeffkrib said:


> Isn’t the rule of thumb and FD rated will do the job just fine? I’ve been using Stihl Super and Ultra but just bought some Motul 710 and Mobil 1 racing 2T. Haven’t used them yet, I’m going to try a few different FD oils and stick to the one which smells the best.


Where in God's name did you find Mobil 1 2T? I thought that was discontinued many years ago. I used it as long as I could in my now 16 year old 361 and it kept it healthy.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 3, 2021)

CNYCountry said:


> Where in God's name did you find Mobil 1 2T? I thought that was discontinued many years ago. I used it as long as I could in my now 16 year old 361 and it kept it healthy.


Most of these guys when they heard it was discontinued went to stores and bought every case they could get. There seems to be several of these folks whenever oil threads are brought up no matter what the forum is.


----------



## computeruser (Sep 3, 2021)

MX2t (still have some) and Klotz R50 for me.


----------



## sundance (Sep 3, 2021)

CNYCountry said:


> Where in God's name did you find Mobil 1 2T? I thought that was discontinued many years ago. I used it as long as I could in my now 16 year old 361 and it kept it healthy.


Looks like he's from Australia.....believe it's still sold there and in Europe. I'm using the last of mine.


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## CNYCountry (Sep 3, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> Most of these guys when they heard it was discontinued went to stores and bought every case they could get. There seems to be several of these folks whenever oil threads are brought up no matter what the forum is.


Oh, OK. Yeah I remember, and I missed the boat. Thought maybe they'd started making it again or something. Had to triple check the date of the post. No big deal, I moved on to VP SEF... wish I had known I was going to cut as much as I did this summer, I would have done pump gas with something decent. Cost me a mint. But not a single worry about fuel related issues in my expensive saws.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 3, 2021)

I can buy non E so I use pump gas and quality oil. I have used almost a gallon in the last few weeks of mix. I need to go mix up 2 more gallons since I got the Red Armor in the mail a week or so ago.


----------



## Abbeville TSI (Sep 3, 2021)

I see some guys using Schaeffer two stroke 7000, Does anyone use the full synthetic Schaeffer 9000? If not, why?


----------



## giver (Sep 3, 2021)

I use straight 30w mixed with 87 octane at 65:1 

Their my job is done here


----------



## OM617YOTA (Sep 3, 2021)

CNYCountry said:


> Oh, OK. Yeah I remember, and I missed the boat. Thought maybe they'd started making it again or something. Had to triple check the date of the post. No big deal, I moved on to VP SEF... wish I had known I was going to cut as much as I did this summer, I would have done pump gas with something decent. Cost me a mint. But not a single worry about fuel related issues in my expensive saws.


Guess that's close to my answer too, just Trufuel instead. I burn less two stroke mix in a year than a lot of guys here burn in a day, the cost just isn't an issue.

I have a few quarts of MX2T as well, and no great attachment to it. If sold, I'd want to replace it with a couple quarts of something else to keep on hand though. Between the cost of a couple quarts of decent replacement oil, and a reasonable price to charge for the MX2T, it just wasn't worth it. If someone wants to pay an UNreasonable price........


----------



## bwalker (Sep 3, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> Guess that's close to my answer too, just Trufuel instead. I burn less two stroke mix in a year than a lot of guys here burn in a day, the cost just isn't an issue.
> 
> I have a few quarts of MX2T as well, and no great attachment to it. If sold, I'd want to replace it with a couple quarts of something else to keep on hand though. Between the cost of a couple quarts of decent replacement oil, and a reasonable price to charge for the MX2T, it just wasn't worth it. If someone wants to pay an UNreasonable price........


If you want clean burning any of the alkylate based fuels mixed with an FD oil will burn very clean.
Something missed by most is that deposits in a two stroke in large part come from the fuel itself and not the oil.


----------



## CNYCountry (Sep 4, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> I have a few quarts of MX2T as well, and no great attachment to it. If sold, I'd want to replace it with a couple quarts of something else to keep on hand though. Between the cost of a couple quarts of decent replacement oil, and a reasonable price to charge for the MX2T, it just wasn't worth it. If someone wants to pay an UNreasonable price........


Yeah at the tail end a few years ago I think I remember finding where you could buy 2T shipped from somewhere in Europe but it was $30+ for a quart. As much as I liked it I decided it was time to move on.


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## bwalker (Sep 4, 2021)

CNYCountry said:


> Yeah at the tail end a few years ago I think I remember finding where you could buy 2T shipped from somewhere in Europe but it was $30+ for a quart. As much as I liked it I decided it was time to move on.


MX2T originally sold for $3.50 a pint. It's excellant oil, but I wouldn't pay $30 a quarter for two cycle oil.


----------



## CNYCountry (Sep 4, 2021)

bwalker said:


> MX2T originally sold for $3.50 a pint. It's excellant oil, but I wouldn't pay $30 a quarter for two cycle oil.


That's right, I forgot it was in pints. It might have been even worse then, that $30+ might have been for a pint. I remember it was way beyond what I was willing to pay.


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## bwalker (Sep 4, 2021)

CNYCountry said:


> That's right, I forgot it was in pints. It might have been even worse then, that $30+ might have been for a pint. I remember it was way beyond what I was willing to pay.


The other thing is I am not certain that the Mobil 1 racing sold over seas is the same oil as Mx2T and Mobil 2R sold here.
They initially sold it in pints. When they renamed it 2R they sold it in quarts and it was dyed red.


----------



## Iffykid (Sep 20, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Not by anyone who knows what the heck they are doing.


I dont know what I am doing either but have been running Sabre at 80:1 in a pair of KTM 250s one of which is about 180hrs and the other is closing in on 400hrs, KTM recommends doing top ends around 100hrs ? neither of these bikes have had the need to have the top ends opened up.
I had been running Sabre 50:1 in my Stihls for the last 20+ years but for the last couple have been using my bike gas at 80:1 because it makes keeping mixed gas simpler 91octane non-oxy fuel mixed at 80:1 with Sabre.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 20, 2021)

Iffykid said:


> I dont know what I am doing either but have been running Sabre at 80:1 in a pair of KTM 250s one of which is about 180hrs and the other is closing in on 400hrs, KTM recommends doing top ends around 100hrs neither of these bikes have had the need to have the top ends opened up.
> I had been running Sabre 50:1 in my Stihls for the last 20+ years but for the last couple have been using my bike gas at 80:1 because it makes keeping mixed gas simpler 91octane non-oxy fuel mixed at 80:1 with Sabre.


Running those kinds of hours with a MX bike is a great way to destroy a motor via a cracked piston.
I would also mention that you have no idea how that ratio is working other than neither bike have seized, which is an incredibly low bar.


----------



## Iffykid (Sep 20, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Running those kinds of hours with a MX bike is a great way to destroy a motor via a cracked piston.


Yes
I check just checked my KTM brief case and it shows that I was mistaken, The piston, connecting rod, conrod bearing and crank pin should be all be changed at 80hrs.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 20, 2021)

Iffykid said:


> Yes
> I check just checked my KTM brief case and it shows that I was mistaken, The piston, connecting rod, conrod bearing and crank pin should be all be changed at 80hrs.


On a 250 mx bike if your any kind of rider the motor will be noticeably down on power between 50 and 100 hours due to ring and piston wear.
If you are an Enduro guy that's just put putting around you might get more hours before you start to lose compression.


----------



## Iffykid (Sep 21, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I'm with you. I really don't see the point or added benefit of running 80-100:1. If you burn a quart of oil a year you save have the price of a quart of oil. What's a qt of amsoil cost? $15 so you save $7. What benefit do you get running that ragged edge to save $7/yr on 2 stroke oil?





bwalker said:


> On a 250 mx bike if your any kind of rider the motor will be noticeably down on power between 50 and 100 hours due to ring and piston wear.
> If you are an Enduro guy that's just put putting around you might get more hours before you start to lose compression.


Yes I am just put putting around on the 250s, I raced a pair of Beta 300s for Hair Scramble the last two seasons and running 2 KTM 300TPIs this season as they seem to use less oil than having to mix. You know how it is one for practice and one for racing.


----------



## Franny K (Sep 21, 2021)

Iffykid said:


> Yes I am just put putting around on the 250s, I raced a pair of Beta 300s for Hair Scramble the last two seasons and running 2 KTM 300TPIs this season as they seem to use less oil than having to mix. You know how it is one for practice and one for racing.



Are you doing talk to text? Hare scramble like the bunny rabbit.

KTM is kind of silly about the service schedule. The battery bike is 100 hours for the motor bearings.


----------



## cookies (Sep 21, 2021)

Abbeville TSI said:


> I see some guys using Schaeffer two stroke 7000, Does anyone use the full synthetic Schaeffer 9000? If not, why?


I run the 9000 in winter months, its nice and pourable in the colder temperatures. No problems so far using it at 40-1


----------



## RED-85-Z51 (Sep 21, 2021)

Im still fully impressed with Opti2 from Optilube, can run it 70:1 or 50:1, ive done both on many 2 strokes. I get low odor, no ash, little to no smoke and most importantly i get oil stuck to all the internals...and virtually no carbon.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


----------



## Iffykid (Sep 21, 2021)

Franny K said:


> Are you doing talk to text? Hare scramble like the bunny rabbit.
> 
> KTM is kind of silly about the service schedule. The battery bike is 100 hours for the motor bearings.


A Hare is not a Rabbit  but are similar in appearance.
Hare scramble is a form of *off-road motorcycle racing.

The Erzeberg hare scramble is perhaps the most notable. *


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## bwalker (Sep 21, 2021)

Iffykid said:


> Yes I am just put putting around on the 250s, I raced a pair of Beta 300s for Hair Scramble the last two seasons and running 2 KTM 300TPIs this season as they seem to use less oil than having to mix. You know how it is one for practice and one for racing.


TPI's can get away with less oil because they have no gasoline present in the crankcase. With that said many guys are turning up the oilers on them as parts are wearing very fast if they are ridden hard.


----------



## cgeb (Sep 22, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I thought about getting some of that from Walmart in the small bottle if I needed a hold over oil. I had enough Lucas left over to make a gallon of mix right now. I went with the Echo Red Armor, heard nothing but good out of it. And even that oil comes in $14 or more a quart when you figure it all out. I doesn't more up front but cheaper in long run. I won't buy oil for years now .


VP Racing makes the Echo Red Armor oil for them. I think Red Armor just changed their recipe but the VP stuff is great. Walmart does a clearance in the fall and I clear their shelves out. Was buying the 16 oz for $1.71 last week. I'm a hobbyist but I re-build saws so I have a little experience with it. Unfortunately I live in an area that forces us to use ethanol. I run pre-mix in the winter when they are more likely to sit for an extended period. Try the VP.


----------



## clemsonfor (Sep 22, 2021)

cgeb said:


> VP Racing makes the Echo Red Armor oil for them. I think Red Armor just changed their recipe but the VP stuff is great. Walmart does a clearance in the fall and I clear their shelves out. Was buying the 16 oz for $1.71 last week. I'm a hobbyist but I re-build saws so I have a little experience with it. Unfortunately I live in an area that forces us to use ethanol. I run pre-mix in the winter when they are more likely to sit for an extended period. Try the VP.


That's good to know. I now have just shy of a gallon of Red Armor cause I made up 2 gallons but I will try to remember that. But by the time I need oil again Walmart is liable to not carry it anymore. I did see the VP oil there and almost pot some of it as a stop gap solution.


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## bwalker (Sep 22, 2021)

cgeb said:


> VP Racing makes the Echo Red Armor oil for them. I think Red Armor just changed their recipe but the VP stuff is great. Walmart does a clearance in the fall and I clear their shelves out. Was buying the 16 oz for $1.71 last week. I'm a hobbyist but I re-build saws so I have a little experience with it. Unfortunately I live in an area that forces us to use ethanol. I run pre-mix in the winter when they are more likely to sit for an extended period. Try the VP.


I find that unlikely as VP doesn't even produce the two cycle oil sold at Walmart.
And I just looked Red Armour is produced by Phillips 66.


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## cookies (Sep 22, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I find that unlikely as VP doesn't even produce the two cycle oil sold at Walmart.
> And I just looked Red Armour is produced by Phillips 66.


Vp does not make the walmart brand 2 cycle oil, some walmarts sell vp brand 2 cycle oil...sadly none sell it here or I would help clear the shelves when they go on sale in the fall.


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## clemsonfor (Sep 22, 2021)

cookies said:


> Vp does not make the walmart brand 2 cycle oil, some walmarts sell vp brand 2 cycle oil...sadly none sell it here or I would help clear the shelves when they go on sale in the fall.


I don't believe it was claimed that VP produces the Walmart brand 2 stroke oil. I think that it was claimed that VP doesn't even make its own branded oil sold at Walmart.


----------



## Ittybittyfitty (Sep 22, 2021)

My Walmart doesn’t have the VP oil in the oil and automotive section where the other 2 cycle oils are. For some reason they keep it in the outdoor / garden area. You might have to check there.


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## bwalker (Sep 22, 2021)

cookies said:


> Vp does not make the walmart brand 2 cycle oil, some walmarts sell vp brand 2 cycle oil...sadly none sell it here or I would help clear the shelves when they go on sale in the fall.


What I was saying is VP doesn't produce the oil labeled VP that is sold at Walmart.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 22, 2021)

Ittybittyfitty said:


> My Walmart doesn’t have the VP oil in the oil and automotive section where the other 2 cycle oils are. For some reason they keep it in the outdoor / garden area. You might have to check there.


The local Walmart does the same.


----------



## cookies (Sep 22, 2021)

bwalker said:


> The local Walmart does the same.


From what I can tell they do not manufacture much themselves but do the research then contract out the manufacture/bottling. Im wanting to try their bar oil


----------



## bwalker (Sep 22, 2021)

cookies said:


> From what I can tell they do not manufacture much themselves but do the research then contract out the manufacture/bottling. Im wanting to try their bar oil


I highly doubt the do any research either. They simply contract with another company to bottle oil for them with their label.
Amsoil likewise doesn't produce a single drop of oil.
I work for an oil company and our branded two cycle oil isn't even made by us.


----------



## clemsonfor (Sep 23, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I highly doubt the do any research either. They simply contract with another company to bottle oil for them with their label.
> Amsoil likewise doesn't produce a single drop of oil.
> I work for an oil company and our branded two cycle oil isn't even made by us.


Yea I agree. I'm sure Walmart does ZERO research for two stroke oil other than they look what the spec is and contract that out to a bottler/distributor to bottle an oil that meets such specs and put it in this color bottle with this label.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 23, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> Yea I agree. I'm sure Walmart does ZERO research for two stroke oil other than they look what the spec is and contract that out to a bottler/distributor to bottle an oil that meets such specs and put it in this color bottle with this label.


I doubt they have anyone that even knows what the applicable specs are. I imagine they just put out a bid/RFP and the cheapest vendor wins. Or they have a vendor that supplies all their lubricants on a open contract and it's filled that way.
Warren use to make all Walmarts lubes. It actually wasn't terrible stuff either.


----------



## OM617YOTA (Sep 23, 2021)

I ran Supertech oil in my vehicles for years. Pulled a valve cover, which I'd previously cleaned to spotless, and it was pretty gunked up after only 40k miles.

That was the last Supertech oil I ever ran.


----------



## clemsonfor (Sep 25, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> I ran Supertech oil in my vehicles for years. Pulled a valve cover, which I'd previously cleaned to spotless, and it was pretty gunked up after only 40k miles.
> 
> That was the last Supertech oil I ever ran.


I run a bunch of super tech and don't have those issues.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 26, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I run a bunch of super tech and don't have those issues.


There are all sorts of factors that can lead to the formation of the deposits observed by OM617Yota.


----------



## JoeCookeWVU (Sep 26, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I'm not trying to start an oil war or super long post but I know there is a good chance I do.
> 
> I need to buy some more and want to know what folks are useing. Several years back I used some bel rat, the. Uses a few quarts of amsoil, then got some Lucas but quit when someone told me it left their says dryer and less oily residue than other worse oils so I quit useing it. I got a qt of Raiseman semi syn that I just used up last I mixed. I am going to have to use the last of the Lucas that I have untill I buy something else and was wondering what folks are useing these days.


I have tried many over the years but I have been using the Amsoil Saber for several years now with non ethanol gas and haven't had any fuel line, carb or primer bulb issues since.


----------



## cgeb (Sep 26, 2021)

I know everything on the interweb is 100% true... But a lot of people have said/confirmed VP makes or made Red Armour... Looks the same to me. Thats what I said in my original post, not that they made Walmarts brand. ............


----------



## bwalker (Sep 26, 2021)

JoeCookeWVU said:


> I have tried many over the years but I have been using the Amsoil Saber for several years now with non ethanol gas and haven't had any fuel line, carb or primer bulb issues since.


Ethanol is what kills your rubber parts. Methanol is even worse for the guys that use methanol de-icer in their fuel.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 26, 2021)

cgeb said:


> I know everything on the interweb is 100% true... But a lot of people have said/confirmed VP makes or made Red Armour... Looks the same to me. Thats what I said in my original post, not that they made Walmarts brand. ............ View attachment 931526


To be clear the VP branded oil pictured above and as sold by Walmart is not made by VP. It's made by Lubrication Technologies. Red Armor is made by Phillips 66. This info is easily found out by looking at the msds sheets for each. In regards to oil the comments most guys make online are pure garbage.
I wouldn't be certain the Red Armors formulation has been changed either. MSDS only show components that are toxic and often esters are not.


----------



## cgeb (Sep 26, 2021)

bwalker said:


> To be clear the VP branded oil pictured above and as sold by Walmart is not made by VP. It's made by Lubrication Technologies. Red Armor is made by Phillips 66. This info is easily found out by looking at the msds sheets for each. In regards to oil the comments most guys make online are pure garbage.
> I wouldn't be certain the Red Armors formulation has been changed either. MSDS only show components that are toxic and often esters are not.


So what does VP make then in 2 cycle?



https://vpracingfuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Oil-Product-Sheet.pdf


----------



## sundance (Sep 26, 2021)

cgeb said:


> So what does VP make then in 2 cycle?
> 
> 
> 
> https://vpracingfuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Oil-Product-Sheet.pdf


MSDS says this is from Lubrication Technologies.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 26, 2021)

cgeb said:


> So what does VP make then in 2 cycle?
> 
> 
> 
> https://vpracingfuels.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/2-Cycle-Full-Synthetic-Oil-Product-Sheet.pdf


They dont.


----------



## LoneOak (Sep 26, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Ethanol is what kills your rubber parts. Methanol is even worse for the guys that use methanol de-icer in their fuel.


This is a lie! I'm not calling YOU a liar, but that you have been lied too. 
Here is a video of a guy testing various gasoline additives on fuel line.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 27, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> This is a lie! I'm not calling YOU a liar, but that you have been lied too.
> Here is a video of a guy testing various gasoline additives on fuel





LoneOak said:


> This is a lie! I'm not calling YOU a liar, but that you have been lied too.
> Here is a video of a guy testing various gasoline additives on fuel line.



Ok, that guy is completely full of chit. I currently work in oil refining and Benzene, Xylene and Toluene have been strictly limited for years to extremely minute levels. Partly because they attack rubber and plastic parts as he mentioned, but also due to the fact Benzene is a known carcinogen and toluene and xylene have many other emmissions and other issues.
In addition my first job out of school was working with the Delphi division of General Motors on fuel filters for high percentage ethanol blend and Methanol blend fuels for the Brazilian market. I can say for certain that Ethanol when combined with sulfur compounds in fuel and the water they pull out of the air form nasty corrosive products that attack metal parts, rubber, and many plastics. Ethanol blended fuels also form varnish and gums like crazy.
I currently have a small Honda generator with a rotted fuel line from ethanol use. It's a real issue. Not to mentioned the corrosion issues which are worse problems.


----------



## windthrown (Sep 27, 2021)

Ah, with a thread title like this one, its like saying "Winter is Coming" in _The Game of Thrones._ 

_And so... fade in from white... we see a Neanderthal cast wearing animal hides in the cover of darkness, they are all drunk, yelling and howling at the moon, with fires lighted throughout the scene, chainsaws scattered all around them, and wood chippers parked about. The women are scantly clad in animal furs, and dogs are howling with the men at the moon. Slowly the drums begin to beat and they as increase in tempo the women begin to dance with arms laced in a weaving thread among them. A high priest emerges from off set and climbs to a platform. He turns and announces in a loud booming voice over the drunken crowd: _
*Summon the oil Demons! Let the OIL WARS RECOMMENCE! *
_And with that they all take a drink of ale or cider from two large caldrons. They all raise their wooden mugs and chant: _
My oil is better than your oil! My oil is better than your oil! My oil is better than your oil! 
_And with that they fall into a huge fight that lasts for hours, then dragging on for days, then weeks, and then many months, until they are all dead from exhaustion. _

And so the Neanderthals became extinct.


----------



## windthrown (Sep 27, 2021)

My oil of choice these days. Its cheap, its tested, its rated FD, its full synthetic, and its readily available (at WalMart and Tractor Supply).




I use it st a rate of 3oz/gallon of pure gas. Which is 42.66666666666 to one. Works for me. Most small oil bottles are marked with 2.6oz (50:1)and 3oz.


----------



## windthrown (Sep 27, 2021)

On the subject of gas? I only use pure gas in my saws. No ethanol, thank you. Ethanol eats rubber and aluminum. And it absorbs water. It also has significantly less energy than gas does. And I do not care what some douche says about on YooToob. Ethanol is great stuff... in beer, wine, and booze. Not in engines.


----------



## LoneOak (Sep 27, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Ok, that guy is completely full of chit. I currently work in oil refining and Benzene, Xylene and Toluene have been strictly limited for years to extremely minute levels. Partly because they attack rubber and plastic parts as he mentioned, but also due to the fact Benzene is a known carcinogen and toluene and xylene have many other emmissions and other issues.
> In addition my first job out of school was working with the Delphi division of General Motors on fuel filters for high percentage ethanol blend and Methanol blend fuels for the Brazilian market. I can say for certain that Ethanol when combined with sulfur compounds in fuel and the water they pull out of the air form nasty corrosive products that attack metal parts, rubber, and many plastics. Ethanol blended fuels also form varnish and gums like crazy.
> I currently have a small Honda generator with a rotted fuel line from ethanol use. It's a real issue. Not to mentioned the corrosion issues which are worse problems.


Well here is the latest MSDS from a major refiner of fossil fuels.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 27, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Well here is the latest MSDS from a major refiner of fossil fuels.


Benzene <3, IE it could be and is nearly zero. And I would guaranteed the Xylene,Toluene is near 1% or less.
I'm going to work tommorow and I will pull the analysis of the nights gasoline run. I can guarantee the aromatics will be very minimal.
The whole methodology of the youtube test is ridiculous. Even in the good ol days you didn't even huge concentrations of BTX. Partly because they are more valuable sold separately from the gasoline pool as they are used to make things like nylon, rubber, glues and plastics.


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## LoneOak (Sep 27, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Benzene <3, IE it could be and is nearly zero. And I would guaranteed the Xylene,Toluene is near 1% or less.
> I'm going to work tommorow and I will pull the analysis of the nights gasoline run. I can guarantee the aromatics will be very minimal.
> The whole methodology of the youtube test is ridiculous. Even in the good ol days you didn't even huge concentrations of BTX. Partly because they are more valuable sold separately from the gasoline pool as they are used to make things like nylon, rubber, glues and plastics.


Its not the amount of these chemicals that do damage, but the mere presence. Not to mention that each of those chemicals inflicted similar type of damage so the effects are compounded.
Motor fuels are blended for a specific geographical area depending on population, so being in a state with lower population you may see lower amounts of those chemicals because blending regulations will be different.
ALL of those chemicals listed in that MSDS that are NOT Gasoline, are byproducts of the various processes in refining Gasoline and are considered WASTE materials. Some of these waste materials are sold off to the manufactures of the items you described, but the vast majority of their volume is used as blendstock for "Reformulated Gasoline".


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## LoneOak (Sep 27, 2021)

windthrown said:


> On the subject of gas? I only use pure gas in my saws. No ethanol, thank you. Ethanol eats rubber and aluminum. And it absorbs water. It also has significantly less energy than gas does. And I do not care what some douche says about on YooToob. Ethanol is great stuff... in beer, wine, and booze. Not in engines.


Toluene is also Hygroscopic! Eats rubber, and can oxidize Aluminum! Put a chunk of fuel line in a bottle of Vodka and see what happens!


----------



## windthrown (Sep 27, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Benzene <3, IE it could be and is nearly zero. And I would guaranteed the Xylene,Toluene is near 1% or less.
> I'm going to work tommorow and I will pull the analysis of the nights gasoline run. I can guarantee the aromatics will be very minimal.
> The whole methodology of the youtube test is ridiculous. Even in the good ol days you didn't even huge concentrations of BTX. Partly because they are more valuable sold separately from the gasoline pool as they are used to make things like nylon, rubber, glues and plastics.


But but but... its not whut the goons here and on You Toob say!


LoneOak said:


> Toluene is also Hygroscopic! Eats rubber, and can oxidize Aluminum! Put a chunk of fuel line in a bottle of Vodka and see what happens!


Yeah, what the F would I know. I am just a dumb ass educated and experienced engineer. I spent many years in a failure analysis lab in San Diego. As such, I happen to disagree with what you have posted here 100%. So you and your 30 posts here are worthy of my ignore list. You are just not worth arguing with.


----------



## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

windthrown said:


> But but but... its not whut the goons here and on You Toob say!
> 
> Yeah, what the F would I know. I am just a dumb ass educated and experienced engineer. I spent many years in a failure analysis lab in San Diego. As such, I happen to disagree with what you have posted here 100%. So you and your 30 posts here are worthy of my ignore list. You are just not worth arguing with.


Should I apologize for not being a Keyboard Commando? Believe what you like, I only aim to put facts in place of common misconception.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 28, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Its not the amount of these chemicals that do damage, but the mere presence. Not to mention that each of those chemicals inflicted similar type of damage so the effects are compounded.
> Motor fuels are blended for a specific geographical area depending on population, so being in a state with lower population you may see lower amounts of those chemicals because blending regulations will be different.
> ALL of those chemicals listed in that MSDS that are NOT Gasoline, are byproducts of the various processes in refining Gasoline and are considered WASTE materials. Some of these waste materials are sold off to the manufactures of the items you described, but the vast majority of their volume is used as blendstock for "Reformulated Gasoline".


Gasoline isn't one product. It's a chemical soup of various products.
Your assertions on concentration not matter are simply wrong.
I can assure you BTX are not waste products what so ever and some refiners maximize there production. There is litteraly zero waste in oil refining. Margins are small so it just makes poor business sense to produce crap.
You are way out of your wheelhouse here and are grasping at straws.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 28, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Should I apologize for not being a Keyboard Commando? Believe what you like, I only aim to put facts in place of common misconception.


Again...these are not facts.


----------



## bwalker (Sep 28, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Toluene is also Hygroscopic! Eats rubber, and can oxidize Aluminum! Put a chunk of fuel line in a bottle of Vodka and see what happens!


But systems are not subjected to vodka. There subjected to a mixture of hydrocarbons and ethanol. Big differance.
Did you ever here of carb problems in the pre ethanol era?


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## Huskybill (Sep 28, 2021)

For decades I used husky 2 t oil mixed 2.2 gallon to the 2.5 oil can.


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## OM617YOTA (Sep 28, 2021)

Bill, you rebel.


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## KASH (Sep 28, 2021)

My favorite oil are the free bottles of oil the dummies throw in the dump because their old.I use any brand of two stroke oil old or new.I mix one quart of oil to 5 gallons of gas for chain saws snow machines outboard motors and lawn boy mowers. I have never had a motor fail due to oil related problems. I put hundreds of hours on my equipment in a year.
Kash


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## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Gasoline isn't one product. It's a chemical soup of various products.
> Your assertions on concentration not matter are simply wrong.
> I can assure you BTX are not waste products what so ever and some refiners maximize there production. There is litteraly zero waste in oil refining. Margins are small so it just makes poor business sense to produce crap.
> You are way out of your wheelhouse here and are grasping at straws.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/261.33 
A list of waste materials defined by law.
*Your assertions on concentration not matter are simply wrong.*
Your evidence to the contrary!
*You are way out of your wheelhouse here and are grasping at straws.*
Do you also believe that post count correlates to intelligence and expertise?


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## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

bwalker said:


> But systems are not subjected to vodka. There subjected to a mixture of hydrocarbons and ethanol. Big differance.
> Did you ever here of carb problems in the pre ethanol era?


Vodka is a fairly pure form of Ethanol, I could have suggested he use E85 but there is still at least 17% Gasoline, which still my contain some percentage of the B.T.E.X chemicals that have been proven "through video evidence" to attack rubber components and fuel line 
*Did you ever here of carb problems in the pre ethanol era?*
The Pre-Ethanol era is also the Pre-Reformulated gasoline era.


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## bwalker (Sep 28, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/261.33
> A list of waste materials defined by law.
> *Your assertions on concentration not matter are simply wrong.*
> Your evidence to the contrary!
> ...


So you google something up that you feel proves your point, but in reality doesn't. Bravo. My evidence is I actually make the stuff and don't have to google. And FWIW gasoline isn't a homogeneous product. It's a mix of streams, that themselves are a mix of components. The recipe changes by the hour sometimes.

No, but its clear you don't know what your talking about.


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## bwalker (Sep 28, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Vodka is a fairly pure form of Ethanol, I could have suggested he use E85 but there is still at least 17% Gasoline, which still my contain some percentage of the B.T.E.X chemicals that have been proven "through video evidence" to attack rubber components and fuel line
> *Did you ever here of carb problems in the pre ethanol era?*
> The Pre-Ethanol era is also the Pre-Reformulated gasoline era.


The RFG era was the start of removing btx from gasoline.. so again you don't know what your talking about.


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## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

bwalker said:


> The RFG era was the start of removing btx from gasoline.. so again you don't know what your talking about.


Well BTEX is STILL present in todays gasoline, the MSDS that I provided in an earlier post shows that. 
But I'm sure you meant MTBE, which was blended along side Ethanol in the early phases of RFG but was phased out by the EPA because it was found to be quite toxic.


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## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

bwalker said:


> So you google something up that you feel proves your point, but in reality doesn't. Bravo. My evidence is I actually make the stuff and don't have to google. And FWIW gasoline isn't a homogeneous product. It's a mix of streams, that themselves are a mix of components. The recipe changes by the hour sometimes.
> 
> No, but its clear you don't know what your talking about.


Hmmmm.....A simple Google search reveals that Gasoline is a homogeneous mixture
About 11,900,000 results (0.76 seconds) 





Search Results​Featured snippet from the web​Gasoline is *a homogeneous mixture*. It is a mixture of different substances mainly hydrocarbons. Gasoline is a mixture of volatile components and thus one substance cannot be distinguished from another. Thus gasoline is homogenous throughout.

Classify each of the following as a pure substance or a mixture ...​https://study.com › academy › answer › classify-each-of-t...



Obviously you don't know what you are talking about either.


----------



## Huskybill (Sep 28, 2021)

I plan on running more oil rich to the newer saws.
Husqvarna does say with larger bars to run 32:1 ratio under heavier use.


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## OM617YOTA (Sep 28, 2021)

This is funny. It's like the guy whose only experience baking is reading the back of the Betty Crocker box telling the master pastry chef that they're wrong.


----------



## LoneOak (Sep 28, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> This is funny. It's like the guy whose only experience baking is reading the back of the Betty Crocker box telling the master pastry chef that they're wrong.


Haha! That's funny, I actually feel like a college professor offering a "Red Pill" to a bunch of "Blue Pill" college students!


----------



## FinnKamp (Nov 1, 2021)

Currently using Teboil 2T Bike made by Russian LukOil.
Don't see any point using chainsaw brand 2 cycle oils that cost at least twice (where is Stihl refinery located anyway ??)


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## Kel71 (Nov 1, 2021)

Don't forget a few quarts of this.


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Hmmmm.....A simple Google search reveals that Gasoline is a homogeneous mixture
> About 11,900,000 results (0.76 seconds)
> 
> 
> ...


Not hardly. The various components of gasoline smell different, look different and have different chemical structures.
Better fire up the Google again...


----------



## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Haha! That's funny, I actually feel like a college professor offering a "Red Pill" to a bunch of "Blue Pill" college students!


I am sure you actually believe that. Ignorance is bliss to you evidently.


----------



## LoneOak (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Not hardly. The various components of gasoline smell different, look different and have different chemical structures.
> Better fire up the Google again...


Perhaps you should learn the definition of "Homogenous" : A homogeneous mixture is a mixture that is really well mixed. It's so well mixed that you can't see the different parts of the mixture. It all looks uniform. The air that you are breathing right now is a homogeneous mixture. It's made up of several different gasses that are so thoroughly mixed together that they appear uniform.


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## Goinwheelin (Nov 1, 2021)

Lone Oak is correct. Pour gasoline into a clear container then tell me if you can make out the various components with the naked eye.


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## LoneOak (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I am sure you actually believe that. Ignorance is bliss to you evidently.


"Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge." ,A.N.W.
"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." B.F.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

Goinwheelin said:


> Lone Oak is correct. Pour gasoline into a clear container then tell me if you can make out the various components with the naked eyeye.


You can see the light ends boiling off at room temperature, yet the whole sample doesn't boil off at room temperature like an olefin would. Given enough time gasoline under the right conditions and gasoline will most certainly seperate into various components based on density. IE gasoline is heterogeneous.
Regardless, this matter not to what we are discussing.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> Perhaps you should learn the definition of "Homogenous" : A homogeneous mixture is a mixture that is really well mixed. It's so well mixed that you can't see the different parts of the mixture. It all looks uniform. The air that you are breathing right now is a homogeneous mixture. It's made up of several different gasses that are so thoroughly mixed together that they appear uniform.


Perhaps you should stop googling and start observing properties? Better yet, stick to googling. I have doubts you can process what you see in a correct manner.


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> "Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge." ,A.N.W.
> "Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." B.F.


Willingness and ability are two different things.


----------



## Goinwheelin (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> You can see the light ends boiling off at room temperature, yet the whole sample doesn't boil off at room temperature like an olefin would. Given enough time gasoline under the right conditions and gasoline will most certainly seperate into various components based on density. IE gasoline is heterogeneous.
> Regardless, this matter not to what we are discussing.


Interesting way to look at it. Thanks


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> On a 250 mx bike if your any kind of rider the motor will be noticeably down on power between 50 and 100 hours due to ring and piston wear.
> If you are an Enduro guy that's just put putting around you might get more hours before you start to lose compression.


Apparently someone never heard or recognized piston slap ! lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

Broken said:


> Apparently someone never heard or recognized piston slap ! lol.


Exactly. Then they wonder why their piston cracked.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

OM617YOTA said:


> I ran Supertech oil in my vehicles for years. Pulled a valve cover, which I'd previously cleaned to spotless, and it was pretty gunked up after only 40k miles.
> 
> That was the last Supertech oil I ever ran.


You get what you pay for silly !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

KASH said:


> My favorite oil are the free bottles of oil the dummies throw in the dump because their old.I use any brand of two stroke oil old or new.I mix one quart of oil to 5 gallons of gas for chain saws snow machines outboard motors and lawn boy mowers. I have never had a motor fail due to oil related problems. I put hundreds of hours on my equipment in a year.
> Kash


Kash your engines don't even start up North due to the extreme Cold , let alone oil failure related , its due to Cold seizure !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Exactly. Then they wonder why their piston cracked.


They have to start their learning curve somewhere Mr Walker why not here , & a lot cheaper now brother !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> I plan on running more oil rich to the newer saws.
> Husqvarna does say with larger bars to run 32:1 ratio under heavier use.


Yeah Bill , I read that yrs ago in moto x during my 70's dirt racing days larger 500 class bikes heavier ratio than the 125 class screamers , likely load related ! lol.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Ok, that guy is completely full of chit. I currently work in oil refining and Benzene, Xylene and Toluene have been strictly limited for years to extremely minute levels. Partly because they attack rubber and plastic parts as he mentioned, but also due to the fact Benzene is a known carcinogen and toluene and xylene have many other emmissions and other issues.
> In addition my first job out of school was working with the Delphi division of General Motors on fuel filters for high percentage ethanol blend and Methanol blend fuels for the Brazilian market. I can say for certain that Ethanol when combined with sulfur compounds in fuel and the water they pull out of the air form nasty corrosive products that attack metal parts, rubber, and many plastics. Ethanol blended fuels also form varnish and gums like crazy.
> I currently have a small Honda generator with a rotted fuel line from ethanol use. It's a real issue. Not to mentioned the corrosion issues which are worse problems.


Yeah , thank God for the invention of Viton , Buna-N & Nitrile !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> There are all sorts of factors that can lead to the formation of the deposits observed by OM617Yota.





Dieselshawn said:


> Repaired a 661 that was ran on TC-W3.
> 
> seized rings


That's what happens when you run OMC lawnmower oil in a saw !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

GoBigRed said:


> well, modern two stroke race bikes run amsoil at 100:1 all the time. Granted, those engines are water cooled, but there’s no reason a saw couldn’t run that ratio either. oil has come a long way since the old 20:1 smokers.
> 
> but again, to each their own.


Yeah feeling lucky sucker !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

clemsonfor said:


> I think a lot of the ported saw guys are running 40:1 in the 661 and have been since they became available years ago. I remember them saying that 32:1 was too rich oil wise for them after reading about them. For a few threads years ago.


44:1 is optimium for anything ported or commercially run !


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## sb47 (Nov 1, 2021)

I run Stihl saws so I run Stihl oil and OEM parts. It just seems logical to stick with all OEM branded products that are made and designed for there saws. Never had an oil related issue what so ever in over 20 years.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> Nothing smells as good as the castor oil for older two strokes. The 927 maxima is a castor synthetic blend.


Klotz-Benol & Klotz-R , nothing like Napalm in the morning to make you feel alive & 20 hr tear downs !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

Huskybill said:


> I run 38:1 mix, I think 50:1 is too oil lean.


50:1 is adequate with certain oils & engine applications with proper tuning !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

Canyon Angler said:


> I'm thinking Motul 800 Synth


Motul has some fine Synthetic for certain racing high temp applications !


----------



## LoneOak (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> You can see the light ends boiling off at room temperature, yet the whole sample doesn't boil off at room temperature like an olefin would. Given enough time gasoline under the right conditions and gasoline will most certainly seperate into various components based on density. IE gasoline is heterogeneous.
> Regardless, this matter not to what we are discussing.


"Given enough time" That's funny!! Given enough time it will completely evaporate BEFORE it separates!!


----------



## LoneOak (Nov 1, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Willingness and ability are two different things.


So you lack the ability to learn?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 1, 2021)

So , to answer the ops original question , any full synthetic ester based oil is my preference . Ester based syn oils have more solvency (cleaning ability) & tend to have better cling / shear presence due to their polarity potential. I appreciate both in my racing applications where a catastrophic oil pump failure or sudden oil lean condition will give a run on period & reduced performance indication prior any full on seizure . There are numerous FD rated oils to choose from , that will perform admirably . Actually numerous FC rated will do the same with an experienced operator & sound tuning practices ! Nothing like a oil thread to get the blood pumping . Cheers


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## bwalker (Nov 1, 2021)

LoneOak said:


> "Given enough time" That's funny!! Given enough time it will completely evaporate BEFORE it separates!!


That depends and more things you don't know...


----------



## Goinwheelin (Nov 1, 2021)

Ok so homogenized milk isn’t homogeneous? I’ve been lied to…


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 1, 2021)

I'm a big fan of Amsoil Saber. I've abused the crap out of weedwhackers and saws that should've melted down, but not even a scuff with this stuff. And the lack of carbon buildup in the exhaust port and on top of the piston was downright amazing to me. Added bonus, the stuff has a fuel stabilizer in it. I mix it at 100:1 in everything but my paramotor.

The way I see it, OE's aren't in the business of making equipment last forever - they're in the business of selling you as much equipment as you will buy, so might as well run the BEST oil you can buy.

Lots of people run cheap or OE oil, then never warm the machine up prior to going full bore. I wish I had pics of a good "4-corner" seizure. Just got some regular scuffs, and one that was run right out of oil, lol - a Honda 300 4-stroke ATV. What a mess! You can tell which one that is ...






Almost forgot the new 4-stroke tiny engines in rototillers and such nowadays - more failure prone than anything I've ever seen before:


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## farfromiowa (Nov 1, 2021)

sb47 said:


> I run Stihl saws so I run Stihl oil and OEM parts. It just seems logical to stick with all OEM branded products that are made and designed for there saws. Never had an oil related issue what so ever in over 20 years.


Me too, I have always ran Stihl HP Ultra. Never had an issue. MS310/440 and Echo CS355T. My 310 is going on 20 years old and has a lot of hours on it and still runs perfect. Someone on here many pages back said they would never run Stihl oil, but didn't say why.


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## Goinwheelin (Nov 1, 2021)

I like to pour a little 30 W Delo 400 in the mix just for gramps.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 1, 2021)

The stuff works, and if your stuff is in good tune, and you don't abuse the crap out of it running it until the rings float or never blowing all the crap out of the fan or fins, and you don't mind decarbonizing the engine every now and then, it's fine. As a mechanic, my preference is to do little to no work on my own stuff so I can make money, so I run good oil and never maintain them, lol.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 2, 2021)

farfromiowa said:


> Me too, I have always ran Stihl HP Ultra. Never had an issue. MS310/440 and Echo CS355T. My 310 is going on 20 years old and has a lot of hours on it and still runs perfect. Someone on here many pages back said they would never run Stihl oil, but didn't say why.


Ultra really is terrible oil sold at top dollar. Any other OEM oil is much better.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 2, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Ultra really is terrible oil sold at top dollar. Any other OEM oil is much better.


What are you calling Stihl Ultra? The oil I use is in a orange bottle and is marked "High Performance"
Not sure if this what everyone is calling Ultra. Any hoo, been using it for all my Stihl saws without one single failure.


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## Runt8401 (Nov 2, 2021)

I've bn looking at the VP since it's easier to get at Tractor Supply but haven't seen many reviews on it. I have to order all my oil and looking for something readily available. I bn running Motul 800 2t and jus ordered 4 pints of Honda HP2 for $8 a pint. The town I live in the Honda shop closed and nearest shop is 50 miles away. I'm not a fan of Stihl oil so I'm stuck with ordering on line. 

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk


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## Stihl-Pioneer (Nov 2, 2021)

sb47 said:


> What are you calling Stihl Ultra? The oil I use is in a orange bottle and is marked "High Performance"
> Not sure if this what everyone is calling Ultra. Any hoo, been using it for all my Stihl saws without one single failure.



The Ultra is the silver bottle synthetic that Stihl offers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Hermio (Nov 2, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Not hardly. The various components of gasoline smell different, look different and have different chemical structures.
> Better fire up the Google again...


Actually, gasoline is a solution, not a mixture. The components are blended to the molecular level. A mixture has discreet components. An example would be a mixture of sand and sugar.


----------



## TonyCH (Nov 2, 2021)

I run Castrol Power 1 Racing 2T mixed to alkylated gas at 40:1. I run same mix in my clearing saws and 2-wheelers. Burns clean, doesn't smell.

Recently I did buy couple of boxes of Red Line Two-cycle Kart Oil from a close out sale at less than half price. Haven't tried it yet in anything but should be good.


----------



## farfromiowa (Nov 2, 2021)

sb47 said:


> What are you calling Stihl Ultra? The oil I use is in a orange bottle and is marked "High Performance"
> Not sure if this what everyone is calling Ultra. Any hoo, been using it for all my Stihl saws without one single failure.


You know, the silver bottle that bwalker says is "really terrible". It is their synthetic.


----------



## sb47 (Nov 2, 2021)

farfromiowa said:


> You know, the silver bottle that bwalker says is "really terrible". It is their synthetic.


Got it, thanks.


----------



## farfromiowa (Nov 2, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> Stihl synthetic is terrible? I just don’t believe it. Chainsaws run very well on it & if you keep fresh gas & know how to maintain a sharp chain do regular maintenance on your saw, your Stihl will perform very well & last a long time using this oil. My ported saws were done by Ken Dickinson from Ferndale Wa, he has built saws for 40 years he recommends Stihl Ultra, my most recent ported saw a 661was done by Daniel Urich (Supermodify) he is one of the most respected saw builders in the PNW he is also a cutter, he recommended that I use Stihl Ultra in his saws. I have used Motul 2t, Belray etc & I find Stihl ultra performs and protects just as well. These builders I mentioned aren’t on any saw forums but if you have ever watched Pat Lacey (Stihlslinger) on YouTube the black 661 he runs is a Daniel Urich saw. My two cents is worth about two cents but there it is anyhow.


That is just bwalkers opinion, but he didn't have any reasons why. I've been using it for years, no issues. I would use other brands as well, but there is nothing wrong with the Stihl synthetic. These threads can be quite ridiculous.


----------



## PasoRoblesJimmy (Nov 2, 2021)

Red Armor for the win.


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 2, 2021)

You can mix up CHEAP 10W-30 oil from Walmart as premix, and it'll probably work well for years & years, too. Doesn't mean it's the best way of doing things. I guarantee you'll be having carbon build up enough to choke the saw down to where it won't start, let alone cut anything. Same with Stihl oil - carbon buildup keeps their service department fat and happy. Like I said, they're not in the business of having your saw last forever.

A good synthetic will have next to no carbon build up. My neighbor buys Saber from me and runs that in his Stihl - he cut 10 acres with this ONE saw, and it's NEVER been apart. I've never had to do any carburetor tuning either. The built-in fuel stabilizer in Saber works great. My customers that insist on running OE or cheap dollar store oil are here all the time getting carbon scraped and burnt out of mufflers, spark screens, piston crowns, and exhaust ports after so many hours. If you cut 2 or 3 branches a year, then 10w-30 is the oil to use - it'll work. But if your WORK your saw, there's no replacement for top shelf synthetic oil.

To each his own.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 2, 2021)

farfromiowa said:


> That is just bwalkers opinion, but he didn't have any reasons why. I've been using it for years, no issues. I would use other brands as well, but there is nothing wrong with the Stihl synthetic. These threads can be quite ridiculous.


It's not my opinion that it's an ashless, FB rated oil formulated as a band aid fix for Stihl four stroke motors. It produces excess deposits in an air cooled two stroke ran hard. About what one would expect from a FB rated oil. It also stinks something terrible.
If your OK running with that all the while paying too much have at it.


----------



## grizz55chev (Nov 2, 2021)

Oil threads suck!


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 2, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> Just purchased some saber a couple weeks ago, anxious to try it, I must say that in your thread you mention that if you cut 2 or 3 branches a year that is the oil to use but if you work your saw.......? I used to cut north of a million board feet a year so I wasn’t your 2 or 3 branches guy. I can guarantee I WORKED a saw most likely harder than you,& most on regular old orange bottle Stihl or husky oil without a failure ever!


Never said you'd have a failure ... but I guarantee you didn't go that length of time without SEVERAL trips to the exhaust port for a scraping.

The comment about 2-3 branches a year was in regard to 10w-30 motor oil as 2-stroke oil - I should've clarified and/or wrote that a bit better.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 2, 2021)

bwalker said:


> It's not my opinion that it's an ashless, FB rated oil formulated as a band aid fix for Stihl four stroke motors. It produces excess deposits in an air cooled two stroke ran hard. About what one would expect from a FB rated oil. It also stinks something terrible.
> If your OK running with that all the while paying too much have at it.


As I said previously , Ultra was designed by Stihl for use in its new 4 mix engines . These engines have inherent teardown schedules for valve inspection & cleaning adjustment . If you use it within reasonable ratio's in a properly tuned saw it would be adequate however like most FB rated oil it is not clean . Carbon deposits are inherent . As is smoke & odour . Just saying !


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## grizz55chev (Nov 2, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> All you guys are probably right, I just felt like arguing, my lady friend is a nurse & working with covid people so we are separated & I haven’t had a good ol argument in a while


Oil threads are tame, you want argument, head over to p+R, you'll get all you can stomach.


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## bwalker (Nov 2, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> All good, I sometimes overreact & take things personal when I shouldn’t. I can promise you I have never scraped carbon off an exhaust port, I would pull the screens sometimes on the muffler and throw them in a little gas but I kept air filters clean, every Sunday I would blow saw off-out, grease needle bearing, I would grind chain every night(sqaure) & run the piss out of these ported saws. I just don’t see anything special about cutting 10 acres with one saw, this is not uncommon with a correctly tuned, maintained pro saw. Stihl 660 or a 390 husky in my case. One that wasn’t jerked on when pinched causing air leaks etc. I’m sure there are better oils than Stihl ultra but it is not horrible oil as some have said. I believe running a really sharp chain & good common sense when falling and bucking is the key to longevity. I could be wrong & just lucky with my saws in the past.


Yes, it's that horrible. Unless you like paying top dollar for a early 80's quality oil that wasn't designed for a modern chainsaw.


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## Joisey (Nov 3, 2021)

Amsoil Saber mixed at 60:1. I used to use Lawnboy oil in my Lawnboy mower. Had to clean the exhaust ports at the end of each season. Nothing in the exhaust ports after using Saber. Ditto to a smaller extent for my Homelite XL12 using Homelite oil. Less buildup than the Lawnboy, but it was still reduced to something that I can wipe out with a paper towel or qtip at the end of the year. Zero trouble with sour fuel using Saber.


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## Brufab (Nov 3, 2021)

I run echos so I run the red armor oil while it's in the warranty period. I have heard it stains parts red maybe that's how the dealers know when they tear the saw apart??? So far so good. I usually mix a little rich like 45:1 in my 50:1 equipment


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## RogerD (Nov 3, 2021)

Yamalube R at 40:1 for my yard equipment with Super Unleaded. My personal equipment has never had an ethanol fuel related issue but I have seen ethanol related fuel line issues at work with a group that does not run our ethanol free fuel that we supply for small engines. Work premix is Stihl Ultra.


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## Squareground3691 (Nov 3, 2021)

Yup run MOTUL 800 off-road 2T at 40:1 seems to be the ticket


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## bwalker (Nov 3, 2021)

Squareground3691 said:


> Yup run MOTUL 800 off-road 2T at 40:1 seems to be the ticket


I ran it at 32:1 in a ported in a stock and a ported Ms260 and it worked ok.


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## bwalker (Nov 3, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> I just thought that I was getting too much excess oil at that ratio. Piston wash and loads of oil in the muffler can.


Tuned too rich


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## bwalker (Nov 3, 2021)

gyp69 said:


> M-Tronic 462 Tree Monkey


Matters not. 500I almost always run too rich from the factory.


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## HarleyT (Nov 3, 2021)

37.85/1!!!


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## North by Northwest (Nov 3, 2021)

Squareground3691 said:


> Yup run MOTUL 800 off-road 2T at 40:1 seems to be the ticket


Keep an eye on your exhaust ports. Motul is a fine oil , however much like Dominator when at richer oil ratio's . If you your tuning is appropriate all should be good !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 3, 2021)

HarleyT said:


> 37.85/1!!!


38:86.0000 / 1 at higher altitude !


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## huskihl (Nov 3, 2021)

Broken said:


> Keep an eye on your exhaust ports. Motul is a fine oil , however much like Dominator when at richer oil ratio's . If you your tuning is appropriate all should be good !


Looking for carbon buildup at richer ratios?


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## FinnKamp (Nov 4, 2021)

Brufab said:


> I run echos so I run the red armor oil while it's in the warranty period. I have heard it stains parts red maybe that's how the dealers know when they tear the saw apart??? So far so good. I usually mix a little rich like 45:1 in my 50:1 equipment


Really? I have a Cs420es and the warranty document translation that I have does not state that. It just says use "good quality JASO FC oil made for air cooled 2 stroke engines" and carb adjustment is required after 8 to 18 hours and recommended every 50 hours. Though I bought it from big box so no one explained anything hands-on.


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## Bobmo (Nov 4, 2021)

Stihl, only Stihl, and non ethanol gas
Bobmo


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## Brufab (Nov 4, 2021)

Joisey said:


> Amsoil Saber mixed at 60:1. I used to use Lawnboy oil in my Lawnboy mower. Had to clean the exhaust ports at the end of each season. Nothing in the exhaust ports after using Saber. Ditto to a smaller extent for my Homelite XL12 using Homelite oil. Less buildup than the Lawnboy, but it was still reduced to something that I can wipe out with a paper towel or qtip at the end of the year. Zero trouble with sour fuel using Saber.


Ahhhh the good Ole lawnboy mowers! I completely forgot about those. I remember them having the side discharge way up front. Second lawnmower I remember using first was a Montgomery ward rear bagger with the top handle removed because i was only 5 when I started cutting lawn and the full handle was to tall for me. Then I graduated to snapper and never looked back got a half dozen or so and if I see any by the curb I damn near lock the brakes up to get it


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## Brufab (Nov 4, 2021)

FinnKamp said:


> Really? I have a Cs420es and the warranty document translation that I have does not state that. It just says use "good quality JASO FC oil made for air cooled 2 stroke engines" and carb adjustment is required after 8 to 18 hours and recommended every 50 hours. Though I bought it from big box so no one explained anything hands-on.


Trouble with the echos is I think the dealer has to adjust carb because of those limiter caps. I haven't had to adjust anything yet on my echos. It was just a rumor I heard about the red armor oil mix. I have alot of echos so it takes awhile to get to 50 hours on 1 of them.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 4, 2021)

FinnKamp said:


> Really? I have a Cs420es and the warranty document translation that I have does not state that. It just says use "good quality JASO FC oil made for air cooled 2 stroke engines" and carb adjustment is required after 8 to 18 hours and recommended every 50 hours. Though I bought it from big box so no one explained anything hands-on.


FC is a good oil , Just a little less solvency & dispersent protection . You normally may see a little more smoke an odor issues , I used FC for years will no issues . The FD is the accepted finest form of synthetic oil protection for pretty well all 2 stroke applications , when mixed properly in a adequately tuned engine .


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## North by Northwest (Nov 4, 2021)

huskihl said:


> Looking for carbon buildup at richer ratios?


Absolutely , 2T like Dominator were originated from severe motor cycle racing applications . Designed for high rpm , heat & pressure rigors of motor cycle racing . When used at proper ratio & engine tuning , deposits & fouling can be reduced . There are more suitable oils for chainsaw use.


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## huskihl (Nov 4, 2021)

Broken said:


> Absolutely , 2T like Dominator were originated from severe motor cycle racing applications . Designed for high rpm , heat & pressure rigors of motor cycle racing . When used at proper ratio & engine tuning , deposits & fouling can be reduced . There are more suitable oils for chainsaw use.


Naw. With most cleaner burning oils, the more you use, the cleaner the saw runs


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## bwalker (Nov 4, 2021)

huskihl said:


> Naw. With most cleaner burning oils, the more you use, the cleaner the saw runs


Very true.
Although I have never liked Amsoil anything.


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## huskihl (Nov 4, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Very true.
> Although I have never liked Amsoil anything.


Lol.
Yep I’m aware


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## Joisey (Nov 4, 2021)

Brufab said:


> Ahhhh the good Ole lawnboy mowers! I completely forgot about those. I remember them having the side discharge way up front. Second lawnmower I remember using first was a Montgomery ward rear bagger with the top handle removed because i was only 5 when I started cutting lawn and the full handle was to tall for me. Then I graduated to snapper and never looked back got a half dozen or so and if I see any by the curb I damn near lock the brakes up to get it


I have two Lawnboy self propelled mowers. Both bought new, one in 1974, one in 1994. Running Amsoil synthetic oil there is zero smoke from them. Both mowers still run strong and are on their 7th and 4th set of wheels respectively.


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Nov 5, 2021)

VP Fuels 50-1 2--cycle mix (with 92 octane and full-synthetic 2-cycle oil) sold at Tracter Supply is cheaper and better than TruFuel.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2021)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> VP Fuels 50-1 2--cycle mix (with 92 octane and full-synthetic 2-cycle oil) sold at Tracter Supply is cheaper and better than TruFuel.


Why is the VP product better than Truefuel?


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2021)

Joisey said:


> I have two Lawnboy self propelled mowers. Both bought new, one in 1974, one in 1994. Running Amsoil synthetic oil there is zero smoke from them. Both mowers still run strong and are on their 7th and 4th set of wheels respectively.


Don't ever mention Saber in a Lawnboy forum brother , OMC TCW-3 oil only !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2021)

huskihl said:


> Naw. With most cleaner burning oils, the more you use, the cleaner the saw runs


Your statement is correct , and 2T is a FD ester base rated oil , however not designed for small air cooled engines . Dominator also , not recommended by Amsoil for use in small air cooled engines either . Neither oil as bad as Stihl Ultra FB jaso rated , for dirty burning oil results in a low compression & heat producing stock chainsaw , however there are numerous other oils more suitable for saw usage . I prefer to use oils that are recommended by their respective manufacturers for saw application usage not larger air / liquid cooled motorcycle & snowmobile engines in extreme racing applications !


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## PasoRoblesJimmy (Nov 5, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Why is the VP product better than Truefuel?


VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is 92 octane. TruFuel is only 89 octane. 92 octane makes for easier starting.

VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is a full 128 oz gallon. TruFuel is only 110 ozs.


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## Joisey (Nov 5, 2021)

Broken said:


> Don't ever mention Saber in a Lawnboy forum brother , OMC TCW-3 oil only !


I have, and have been told that it will destroy my mowers. I ask them why they are running with zero trouble for well over 10 years of using Saber in them? They get over it.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2021)

Broken said:


> Don't ever mention Saber in a Lawnboy forum brother , OMC TCW-3 oil only !


Saber or any low ash oil works poorly in a lawnboy motor. And I say this based on expiereance.


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## bwalker (Nov 5, 2021)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is 92 octane. TruFuel is only 89 octane. 92 octane makes for easier starting.
> 
> VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is a full 128 oz gallon. TruFuel is only 110 ozs.


Yea, no. Octane has nothing to do with ease of starting.


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## REJ2 (Nov 5, 2021)

PasoRoblesJimmy said:


> VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is 92 octane. TruFuel is only 89 octane. 92 octane makes for easier starting.
> 
> VP Fuels 50:1 2-cycle mix is a full 128 oz gallon. TruFuel is only 110 ozs.


The TruFuel 50:1 I've had in the past was 92 octane, but I couldn't find an empty so I checked their website, 92 octane it is.

https://trufuel50.com/501-mix/


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Saber or any low ash oil works poorly in a lawnboy motor. And I say this based on expiereance.


Is that anything like experience ?


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 5, 2021)

If anything a lower octane fuel would make for easier starting, disregarding it's propensity for detonation. Faster burn, easier starting, theoretically. Doubtful octane would play that big of a role in starting ease. Compression, healthy spark, and fuel mixture will, however.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 5, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Saber or any low ash oil works poorly in a lawnboy motor. And I say this based on expiereance.


C-series 16:1 OMC or TCW-3 oils only . D-series 3 ring engine 16:1 , 2-ring engine 32:1 OMC or TCW-3 oils only . M-series engine 32:1 OMC synthetic injector oil or equivalent premix rated @ 40:1 Personally I ran both LB M series & Toro F series @ 50: 1 with Opti2 for over 40 yrs and still running well . The C& D series really required heavier viscosity due to less than tight engineering tolerances & bearing designs of that era !


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 5, 2021)

My Trufuel is 92 octane.

Properly tuned, I've not had starting issues with any fuel I've run. Non ethanol premium, Trufuel, or even back when I had no clue what I was doing, burning regular 87 octane unleaded E10 with Craftsman single gallon dose bottle of whatever two stroke oil in a 42cc Poulan/Craftsman.


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## Joisey (Nov 6, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Saber or any low ash oil works poorly in a lawnboy motor. And I say this based on expiereance.


I will inform my two Lawnboy mowers tomorrow.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> If anything a lower octane fuel would make for easier starting, disregarding it's propensity for detonation. Faster burn, easier starting, theoretically. Doubtful octane would play that big of a role in starting ease. Compression, healthy spark, and fuel mixture will, however.


Again, No. Reid vapor pressure plays an important part in how easy a fuel starts. The RVP numbers are set by regulation the same for both.
Premium doesn't burn any slower either. All pump gas has about the same flame speed.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Broken said:


> C-series 16:1 OMC or TCW-3 oils only . D-series 3 ring engine 16:1 , 2-ring engine 32:1 OMC or TCW-3 oils only . M-series engine 32:1 OMC synthetic injector oil or equivalent premix rated @ 40:1 Personally I ran both LB M series & Toro F series @ 50: 1 with Opti2 for over 40 yrs and still running well . The C& D series really required heavier viscosity due to less than tight engineering tolerances & bearing designs of that era !


Most of my expiereance has been with Duraforce motors. I've had three of them and two snowblower with the same basic engine in piston port format.
I'll post some piston pics tonight.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Again, No. Reid vapor pressure plays an important part in how easy a fuel starts. The RVP numbers are set by regulation the same for both.
> Premium doesn't burn any slower either. All pump gas has about the same flame speed.


If that's the case, then how does premium fuel prevent detonation any more than 87?

The difference between the 2 is minuscule in terms of burn speed - you'd need a camera that cost more than my first 4 automobiles to capture it. The reason I say this is because we used to jet motorcycles for the fuel they were running. If you ran octane that was too high for the engine, you'd lose 3 or so RWHP on the dyno. My buddy would always run 110 octane race fuel thinking he was making more power. We proved it on the dyno that in fact the opposite was true. My theory was there's a difference in burn speed between one extreme to the next in octane ratings.


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 6, 2021)

How easily a fuel ignites, and how fast it burns once it ignites, are two entirely different things.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

This is true. I don't have all the answers, no doubt about it!

I do know that the winter blend fuel is easier to ignite in the summer, probably because it gives off fumes more readily in heat. I've blown out mufflers on mowers with winter blend fuel by shutting them down with the throttle closed. Rarely happens with summer blend fuel.


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## LoneOak (Nov 6, 2021)




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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

Never knew Stihl made their own fuel! I can imagine what that costs per gallon ...


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> If that's the case, then how does premium fuel prevent detonation any more than 87?
> 
> The difference between the 2 is minuscule in terms of burn speed - you'd need a camera that cost more than my first 4 automobiles to capture it. The reason I say this is because we used to jet motorcycles for the fuel they were running. If you ran octane that was too high for the engine, you'd lose 3 or so RWHP on the dyno. My buddy would always run 110 octane race fuel thinking he was making more power. We proved it on the dyno that in fact the opposite was true. My theory was there's a difference in burn speed between one extreme to the next in octane ratings.


Because ignition isn't the same thing as detonation. Detonation prevented by stopping the formation of active radicals that cause it. Not inhibiting flame speed of ignition as both would make it more likely for detonation to occur.


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## TonyCH (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> My buddy would always run 110 octane race fuel thinking he was making more power. We proved it on the dyno that in fact the opposite was true.


Octane is not the thing making more power. Higher octane = more power is a common misconception, like with your buddy.

Octane is one of the factors which determines how much you can advance your timing (and increase compression) without getting pre detonation. And advancing timing and adding more compression are things that allow you to make more power. So, octane and power are related but not the way most people think.

Purely just by using higher octane fuel in an engine with a carburetor does not increase power. But, in fuel injected engine it might, depending on the software ecu is running.

I run 100 octane (US rating) alkylate gas with mix of synthetic oil. It does not make any more power in my chainsaws than other gasolines. But it has other positive effects on both the saw and myself (clean burn, doesn't go bad etc.).


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

I've come to the conclusion that this stuff is too complicated for my damaged brain to comprehend.  

I think it was an instructor at MMI that planted that seed, that higher octane burns "slower" than lower octane fuel does. I still don't doubt this, but I can't prove it. I've heard it from more than one source over the decades. I do realize the ability to ignite has nothing to do with burn speed, but I believe they're interconnected by physics. All this is WAY above my pay grade, lol.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> Octane is not the thing making more power. Higher octane = more power is a common misconception, like with your buddy.
> 
> Octane is one of the factors which determines how much you can advance your timing (and increase compression) without getting pre detonation. And advancing timing and adding more compression are things that allow you to make more power. So, octane and power are related but not the way most people think.
> 
> Purely just by using higher octane fuel in an engine with a carburetor does not increase power. But, in fuel injected engine it might, depending on the software ecu is running.


Correct. Except that detonation and pre ignition are two different things. Pre detonation isn't a thing.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I've come to the conclusion that this stuff is too complicated for my damaged brain to comprehend.
> 
> I think it was an instructor at MMI that planted that seed, that higher octane burns "slower" than lower octane fuel does. I still don't doubt this, but I can't prove it. I've heard it from more than one source over the decades. I do realize the ability to ignite has nothing to do with burn speed, but I believe they're interconnected by physics. All this is WAY above my pay grade, lol.


Most people, including those that should have no clue on the subject.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> Octane is not the thing making more power. Higher octane = more power is a common misconception, like with your buddy.
> 
> Octane is one of the factors which determines how much you can advance your timing (and increase compression) without getting pre detonation. And advancing timing and adding more compression are things that allow you to make more power. So, octane and power are related but not the way most people think.
> 
> Purely just by using higher octane fuel in an engine with a carburetor does not increase power. But, in fuel injected engine it might, depending on the software ecu is running.


Yep, known that for decades. But, lots of people still don't - this is true.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I've come to the conclusion that this stuff is too complicated for my damaged brain to comprehend.
> 
> I think it was an instructor at MMI that planted that seed, that higher octane burns "slower" than lower octane fuel does. I still don't doubt this, but I can't prove it. I've heard it from more than one source over the decades. I do realize the ability to ignite has nothing to do with burn speed, but I believe they're interconnected by physics. All this is WAY above my pay grade, lol.


Crap repeated over and over is still crap. Make no mistake there is no appreciable difference between low octane and premium as it pertains to flame speed.


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## TonyCH (Nov 6, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Correct. Except that detonation and pre ignition are two different things. Pre detonation isn't a thing.


Sorry, english is my 3rd language. Well, what is it called then? I was thinking of premature detonation, like the knocking my cars knock sensor tries to prevent.

EDIT: I guess you said it there: pre ignition.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 6, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> Sorry, english is my 3rd language. Well, what is it called then? I was thinking of premature detonation, like the knocking my cars knock sensor tries to prevent.
> 
> EDIT: I guess you said it there: pre ignition.


My '07 Silverado 1500 still knocks and pings at full throttle and heavy loads, unless I run 93. The knock sensor is only able to do so much, I figure.

It's either detonation or preignition - there's no such thing as pre detonation. Detonation is spontaneous combustion from excessive pressure or heat, while preignition is another ignition source besides the spark plug, such as hot glowing carbon, or a head gasket protruding into the combustion chamber.


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## TonyCH (Nov 6, 2021)

Well, maybe. Who am I to argue with native english speakers.

In any case I meant knocking.


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## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> My '07 Silverado 1500 still knocks and pings at full throttle and heavy loads, unless I run 93. The knock sensor is only able to do so much, I figure.
> 
> It's either detonation or preignition - there's no such thing as pre detonation. Detonation is spontaneous combustion from excessive pressure or heat, while preignition is another ignition source besides the spark plug, such as hot glowing carbon, or a head gasket protruding into the combustion chamber.


Actually detonation isn't spontaneous combustion. Basic sequence is a plug fires, combustion event begins with a gradual pressure rise, as the flame front burns toward the edges of the chamber the unburnt charge starts forming active radicals and suddenly the remaining unburnt charge explodes with a violent rise in pressure.


----------



## bwalker (Nov 6, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> Well, maybe. Who am I to argue with native english speakers.
> 
> In any case I meant knocking.


Don't kid yourself. Your English is pretty good.
Knocking is most often used to describe pre ignition. Detonation often can't be felt or if it can it feels like a small misfire or loss of power.
I had an engine equipped with EGT gages and a data logger. It entered into a detonation event so severe it melted the piston past the second ring and painted the entire exhaust with molten aluminum. The data logger never picked it up. The engine was running great until it wasnt!


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 6, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Most of my expiereance has been with Duraforce motors. I've had three of them and two snowblower with the same basic engine in piston port format.
> I'll post some piston pics tonight.


Yeah Duraforce were a later model , some had poor performance due to plastic carburetor flange warpage issues . Bad idle issues aside they were a stout performer when tuned properly & maintained .


----------



## Joisey (Nov 6, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Saber or any low ash oil works poorly in a lawnboy motor. And I say this based on expiereance.











Toro Lawn-Boy 2-Cycle Ashless 32:1 DuraForce Engine Oil w/ Stabilizer 8 Oz 89930 - Parkers Home Store


8OZ 2-CYCLE OIL



parkerhomestore.com





I'm confused.


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## calamari (Nov 6, 2021)

I just saw an episode on "Engine Masters" where they used a built LS engine with 10:1 compression and tested the power differences that result from 87, 91, California gasoline ( can have up to 10% ethanol), 100, 116 octane leaded race gas and E-85. They ran it as close as they could get it to the same conditions for each run on the dyno on a cold and humid day in SoCal. They used the dyno power reading to set the advance basd upon power dropping off when the advance exceeds optimum. The engine did numerous pulls and the result was that there was no significant difference between the gasoline octanes but E-85 did make a little more power in an engine that made right at 500 hp consistently. The engine, no matter what fuel was used, liked the exact same spark advance. It was felt that E-85 made a little more power because it has a higher oxygen content because of it being 85% ethanol. The reason for the different octanes seemed to be that real world driving involves different ambient temps, various humidities and load durations. A straight pull from 2,000 rpm to redline that lasts a few seconds is different than pulling a load on a grade for many minutes or even hours.
Check the show out. It refutes a lot of conventional wisdom about octanes and its effect.


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

calamari said:


> I just saw an episode on "Engine Masters" where they used a built LS engine with 10:1 compression and tested the power differences that result from 87, 91, California gasoline ( can have up to 10% ethanol), 100, 116 octane leaded race gas and E-85. They ran it as close as they could get it to the same conditions for each run on the dyno on a cold and humid day in SoCal. They used the dyno power reading to set the advance basd upon power dropping off when the advance exceeds optimum. The engine did numerous pulls and the result was that there was no significant difference between the gasoline octanes but E-85 did make a little more power in an engine that made right at 500 hp consistently. The engine, no matter what fuel was used, liked the exact same spark advance. It was felt that E-85 made a little more power because it has a higher oxygen content because of it being 85% ethanol. The reason for the different octanes seemed to be that real world driving involves different ambient temps, various humidities and load durations. A straight pull from 2,000 rpm to redline that lasts a few seconds is different than pulling a load on a grade for many minutes or even hours.
> Check the show out. It refutes a lot of conventional wisdom about octanes and its effect.


Interesting info . I'll check it out . I realize alcohol was utilized to increase the octane rating , however rather surprised E-85 produced improvement in a high compression engine . I have witnessed awesome power numbers in pure alcohol race engines but that's a different beast !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

Joisey said:


> Toro Lawn-Boy 2-Cycle Ashless 32:1 DuraForce Engine Oil w/ Stabilizer 8 Oz 89930 - Parkers Home Store
> 
> 
> 8OZ 2-CYCLE OIL
> ...


Mr Walker , means low ash is problematic ! Ashless is what is recommended in all lawnboy engines , just at different fuel to oil mix ratio's as the engine technology & design became more refined .


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Don't kid yourself. Your English is pretty good.
> Knocking is most often used to describe pre ignition. Detonation often can't be felt or if it can it feels like a small misfire or loss of power.
> I had an engine equipped with EGT gages and a data logger. It entered into a detonation event so severe it melted the piston past the second ring and painted the entire exhaust with molten aluminum. The data logger never picked it up. The engine was running great until it wasnt!


Exactly correct !


----------



## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Most of my expiereance has been with Duraforce motors. I've had three of them and two snowblower with the same basic engine in piston port format.
> I'll post some piston pics tonight.


P.S. sorry for the typo on the M-Series oil data , 64:1 was the manufactures design set point on the injection system . Otherwise 40:1 in Premix . I had to go Premix for a few yrs with my 1st M-series when the oil injector crapped out after 15 yrs , which necessitated the Opti2 Premix @ 50:1 trial . I eventually replaced the injector pump but it again failed on both mowers after 20 yrs and I just when with premix on both and they still are running fine today . P.S.S. Mr Walker do send the pics of your newer Duraforce when time permits , I had the last manufacturers Duraforce model yr & a Toro clone after that . My son still has the Toro at his camp loves it .


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## Joisey (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Mr Walker , means low ash is problematic ! Ashless is what is recommended in all lawnboy engines , just at different fuel to oil mix ratio's as the engine technology & design became more refined .


OK, now I understand.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> P.S. sorry for the typo on the M-Series oil data , 64:1 was the manufactures design set point on the injection system . Otherwise 40:1 in Premix . I had to go Premix for a few yrs with my 1st M-series when the oil injector crapped out after 15 yrs , which necessitated the Opti2 Premix @ 50:1 trial . I eventually replaced the injector pump but it again failed on both mowers after 20 yrs and I just when with premix on both and they still are running fine today . P.S.S. Mr Walker do send the pics of your newer Duraforce when time permits , I had the last manufacturers Duraforce model yr & a Toro clone after that . My son still has the Toro at his camp loves it .


Here is a duraforce ran its entire life on quality low ash Jaso FC and FD oils. Notice the piston crown is covered in mettalic deposits and the deposits actually extended down from the crown and into the ring grooves. This was my first Duraforce that I bought back around 1998 IIRC.I tore this one down around 2005 due to lack of compression. Both rings where stuck in the grooves., but no damage or scoring noted. Spark plug life is short with low ash oils in these engines as well and all that mettalic buildup contributes to burning up the coils as well.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Her is a duraforce piston that was ran the majority of its life on TCW3 ashless oil. This particular motor died when one of its metal reeds broke and ran through the motor locking the crank. The damage on the upper ring land and crown is from that piece of the reed, but remarkably that is all the damage the piston sustained. The pic of the skirt is in the same location as the other pic posted above. Note the ring grooves are pretty clean for such a high hour engine.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

Yeah , I have seen a lot of damage in lawnboys from improper oil usage , they did not stand up to inferior or non spec'd oils ! Lots of bearing failures in the C & D series for the same reason !


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Yeah , I have seen a lot of damage in lawnboys from improper oil usage , they did not stand up to inferior or non spec'd oils ! Lots of bearing failures in the C & D series for the same reason !


I don't know much about the older ones other than some had bronze bushings instead of bearings.
The big end bearing setup on the duraforce is weak too. It's a roller bearing over a silver shell type bearing and the rod itself is aluminum. Have to be very careful not to exceed the factory max RPM specs or they break/throw a rod.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Her is a duraforce piston that was ran the majority of its life on TCW3 ashless oil. This particular motor died when one of its metal reeds broke and ran through the motor locking the crank. The damage on the upper ring land and crown is from that piece of the reed, but remarkably that is all the damage the piston sustained. The pic of the skirt is in the same location as the other pic posted above. Note the ring grooves are pretty clean for such a high hour engine.View attachment 939940
> View attachment 939941


Nice , actually pristine for a high hr engine . Amazing that such little damage to the piston crown & skirt after sucking in the reed . Theynreakly thrived on the old OMC oil technology . I use to due a carbon inspection & muffler decarbonizing every 2 yrs of service , just routine maintenance back then likely only 200 hr. frequency max . Never effected performance !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I don't know much about the older ones other than some had bronze bushings instead of bearings.
> The big end bearing setup on the duraforce is weak two. It's a roller bearing over a silver shell type bearing and the rod itself is aluminum. Have to be very careful not to exceed the factory max RPM specs or they break/throw a rod.


Yep , exactly . The older series used a composite brass / bronze Babbitt material bearing ( bushing) . Low tech but serviceable for the day . That's why oil viscosity was crucial . I still run my old girls yearly on the front lawn portion of my acreage for sentimental reasons !


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Nice , actually pristine for a high hr engine . Amazing that such little damage to the piston crown & skirt after sucking in the reed . Theynreakly thrived on the old OMC oil technology . I use to due a carbon inspection & muffler decarbonizing every 2 yrs of service , just routine maintenance back then likely only 200 hr. frequency max . Never effected performance !


I never tore into that one until it died on me one day and wouldn't start normaly or stay running for more than a few seconds. Drove me crazy trying to figure out why. I ended up pulling the carb off to try swapping carbs when I noticed my reed valve motor turned itself into a piston port. I had intended to replace the motor with a Toro Rtek, which is a piston port version of the same motor which makes a bit more HP. Never got around too it and ended up hauling the thing to the dump. The duraforce models where no where near the quality of the older ones and I worked on several duraforces for 20 years. Grew sick of it and bought a Honda 4 cycle.
I do still have 2 Rtek snowblower. On nearly new one and the other that's been to hell and back and has a ton of hours on it. No issues either than it requires a new coil every few years. The coils like the duraforce coils are garbage and have a very short life span.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Yep , exactly . The older series used a composite brass / bronze Babbitt material bearing ( bushing) . Low tech but serviceable for the day . That's why oil viscosity was crucial . I still run my old girls yearly on the front lawn portion of my acreage for sentimental reasons !


Sentimental reasons are the only reason I got involved with lawnboys in the first place. I first started mowing with a lanwboy.
If I could find a pristine M series with the suzuki engine and oil injection I might jump back in, but parts are a real pain in the ass to find. M-series was the last good lawnboy and it was actually a suzuki engine.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I never tore into that one until it ded on me one day and wouldn't start. Drove me crazy trying to figure out why. I ended up pulling the carb off to try swapping carbs when I noticed my reed valve motor turned itself into a piston port. I had intended to replace the motor with a Toro Rtek, which is a piston port version of the same motor which makes a bit more HP. Never got around too it and ended up hauling the thing to the dump. The duraforce models where no where near the quality of the older ones and I worked on several duraforces for 20 years. Grew sick of it and bought a Honda 4 cycle.


Reed valve to piston port , Roflmao ! Had a R-tek in a Toro snowblower early 80' s I think . Performed well , matched the Tecumseh Snowking I had at the time for driveway usage .


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> Sentimental reasons are the only reason I got involved with lawnboys in the first place. I first started mowing with a lanwboy.
> If I could find a pristine M series with the suzuki engine and oil injection I might jump back in, but parts are a real pain in the ass to find. M-series was the last good lawnboy and it was actually a suzuki engine.


Best engine lawnboy ever put in a mower , the injector system was troublesome & sketchy at best . As I said previously converted to Premix & still run my "M" series to this day , I have had to modify or adapt blades which is frustrating . Hard to find own up North here ! P.S. sentimental yes , my lawnboys & my Harleys !


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)




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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Best engine lawnboy ever put in a mower , the injector system was troublesome & sketchy at best . As I said previously converted to Premix & still run my "M" series to this day , I have had to modify or adapt blades which is frustrating . Hard to find own up North here ! P.S. sentimental yes , my lawnboys & my Harleys !


The last lawnboy I bought, the one pictured above that had the read failure was purchased out of Winnepeg when I lived in NW Ontario. It was one of the last ones in Canada.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Reed valve to piston port , Roflmao ! Had a R-tek in a Toro snowblower early 80' s I think . Performed well , matched the Tecumseh Snowking I had at the time for driveway usage .


This wpuld be a different Rtek. They were only sold for around 10 years before being discontinued due to emmissions regs. Basicly they where a lanwboy motor minus the reeds with more radical porting so they made 8hp.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> This wpuld be a different Rtek. They were only sold for around 10 years before being discontinued due to emmissions regs. Basicly they where a lanwboy motor minus the reeds with more radical porting so they made 8hp.


8hp Performance Class , special order option for the Toro snowblower . Yes believe it also had a high peak operating rpm also , likely due to the more radical porting / tuning . I just remember the advertisement banners at the Toro Dealer " New Retek high performance Engines" I think the actually Tech Specs mentioned Briggs 5.5 hp , so perhaps a different 2 stroke ?


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## Joisey (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> I don't know much about the older ones other than some had bronze bushings instead of bearings.
> The big end bearing setup on the duraforce is weak too. It's a roller bearing over a silver shell type bearing and the rod itself is aluminum. Have to be very careful not to exceed the factory max RPM specs or they break/throw a rod.


I saved a lot of the early engines by making a replacement bronze bushing on a lathe and boring the case on the mill and pinning the bushing in place. Never lost one due to bushing failure/spinning


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> 8hp Performance Class , special order option for the Toro snowblower . Yes believe it also had a high peak operating rpm also , likely due to the more radical porting / tuning . I just remember the advertisement banners at the Toro Dealer " New Retek high performance Engines" I think the actually Tech Specs mentioned Briggs 5.5 hp , so perhaps a different 2 stroke ?


Yes, two different motors.
The 8hp Rtek and the Duraforce had the same max RPM. 4200rpm IIRC.
Edit: I actually just looked at the service manual the Duraforce and R-Tek share. Duraforce has a max RPM of 3200rpm. R-tek is 4300rpm. R-tek is actually 7hp and the Duraforce 6.5hp. I always set the governor of my Duraforce over max spec as they would get out of there own way when set to the factory max spec. And the crank, bearings etc are Identical to the 7hp R-Tek.


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## bwalker (Nov 7, 2021)

Joisey said:


> I saved a lot of the early engines by making a replacement bronze bushing on a lathe and boring the case on the mill and pinning the bushing in place. Never lost one due to bushing failure/spinning


It's a shame one could just adapt them to ball bearings. Much better setup.


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## Joisey (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> It's a shame one could just adapt them to ball bearings. Much better setup.


There wasn't really enough meat in the case to bore it for a ball bearing assembly. I considered a needle bearing setup but didn't know if the crankshaft steel was of sufficient temper to allow direct contact with the needle bearings. A bronze bushing is long lived if it has a sufficient and correctly placed groove in it to carry lube to the bottom of the bushing.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 7, 2021)

bwalker said:


> It's a shame one could just adapt them to ball bearings. Much better setup.


Probably could reverse engineer mechanically , although oil delivery
path was rather rudimentary on the old C& D series . Once a seal became iffy a bearing went south very quickly ! If I remember correctly Joisey is spot on with the casing liabilities !


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## Joisey (Nov 7, 2021)

Broken said:


> Probably could reverse engineer mechanically , although oil delivery
> path was rather rudimentary on the old C& D series . Once a seal became iffy a bearing went south very quickly ! If I remember correctly Joisey is spot on with the casing liabilities !


After fitting the bushing I used a double lip seal. IIRC, I had to bore the seal recess slightly deeper and larger in diameter to fit the double lip seal. The garter spring prevented oil leaks from the bottom of the crankshaft and relocated the outer seal lip to an unworn area of the crankshaft. OE used one groove in the bushing, IIRC, I used three narrow grooves. It's been a few years since I've done any.


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## Slapshot (Nov 8, 2021)

I've used Amsoil Interceptor in all my 2 stroke equipment for many years with no problems...


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## TonyCH (Nov 8, 2021)

calamari said:


> I just saw an episode on "Engine Masters" where they used a built LS engine with 10:1 compression and tested the power differences that result from 87, 91, California gasoline ( can have up to 10% ethanol), 100, 116 octane leaded race gas and E-85.


When comparing E-85 to other fuels you must remember that the "85" in the name doesn't indicate octane. It indicates its 85% ethanol. Here in Europe E85 is about 104 octane (this is 100 octane in USA octane rating).

Another thing to consider is that if the LS-engine was fuel injected it most likely can automatically take advantage of the high octane figures. Ie. advance timing further than with lower octane fuels. If its carburated then it must be tuned to each fuel. So it would seem like the fuel "gives" more power but it infact just allows more radical tuning, which can produce more power.

And lead in gas does not give any performance advantage. Its there just to protect valve seats. I use lead additive in my big block Chevy which has old heads without hardened seats.

E85 is very popular in Europe with high boost turbo cars due its high octane (104 octane is higher than any pump gas you can buy).


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 8, 2021)

E85 is popular here in the states for the same reason.

I called e85 basically racing gas at the pump, and someone here on the forum absolutely lost their mind over that.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Nov 8, 2021)

As long as the engine is set up for it, you can make big power with it. My buddy built an '11 Camaro that makes 900 RWHP on E-85. Can crank boost and timing way up on the stuff. But, run it in my Flex-Fuel Silverado, and my mileage and power would take a nosedive, just based on the power and mileage differences I see between regular E10 and ethanol-free. I'll never run E-85 for that reason. Whenever I fill with ethanol free, I get city mileage that flat SMOKES my highway mileage on E10. 3 to 4 MPG everywhere.

Here's the Camaro. Thing is so STUPID fast I can't help but laugh hysterically.  When I shot this video he was "only" at 770- 800 to the rear wheels with regular 93 pump gas.


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## calamari (Nov 8, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> When comparing E-85 to other fuels you must remember that the "85" in the name doesn't indicate octane. It indicates its 85% ethanol. Here in Europe E85 is about 104 octane (this is 100 octane in USA octane rating).
> 
> Another thing to consider is that if the LS-engine was fuel injected it most likely can automatically take advantage of the high octane figures. Ie. advance timing further than with lower octane fuels. If its carburated then it must be tuned to each fuel. So it would seem like the fuel "gives" more power but it infact just allows more radical tuning, which can produce more power.
> 
> ...


"Engine Masters" does everything on a dyno and what they do is mostly as a result of viewers comments and input. In this case to remove as many variables as possible and because the engine did have a throttle body, they set the timing manually and based upon mutiple pulls on the dyno establishing where power started to drop off as an indication of optimim timing for power with the fuel. They used leaded 100 and 116 octane Sunoco gas because viewers made claims about it's power knowing that the lead, as you noted, was a lubrcant for the valve's seats. Watch the episode as it's both interesting and informative.
This is straying from the OPs question but as a separate factoid, I drive a 1988 Chev. 5.7 litre K 1500 that I bought new. It has 414,000 miles on it and during its lifetime I've kept constant notes about mileage. E 85 isn't readily available where I live in Calif. but when I used to drive to Montana to hunt every year it was everywhere. Although my truck isn't made to run E 85, (can corrode parts in the fuel system) I incorrectly put two tanks of it through my truck on one trip. It was at a uniform altitude and all freeway. I would normally get a little over 15mpg at that steady state driving regimen but for those two tanks I got 20+ mpg. I didn't think it was worth risking a breakdown a long way from home in a very sparsely populated area so only ran those two tanks. My O2 sensor and rudimentary computer recognized the higher octane and adjusted the mixture and timing accordingly I assume. My truck took advantage of the slight power gains "Engine Masters" found throughout the RPM range that E 85 provides. I seem to recall they have an episode where they made 1,200 hp plus on it with a boosted engine.
Using E 85 in a saw may cause more trouble than it's worth since timing has to be adjusted to take advantage of the higher octane and that's not easily adjustable from what I've found on the few saws I've messed with. I think it's based on the gap between the coil and the magneto which requires the saw to be pretty much disassembled to change it. Should run cooler though w/o timing change if the fuel system can take it.


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## TonyCH (Nov 8, 2021)

Yeah, I would not run E85 or any other ethanol containing gas in a chainsaw. The carb membranes and other rubber parts really do not like ethanol. My favorite for 2 stroke engines is alkylate gas.

E85 has a higher octane than other common gas station gases but it has less energy content than regular gas. So, usually your mileage will suffer with the E85. I run E85 in my Audi A6, I converted it a year ago. Main reason being that E85 is much cheaper than the 98E5 (98 euro octane and 5% ethanol) my car usually uses. But, my car uses about 30% more E85 than 98E5. Price difference is bigger though. The most common problem with using E85 is the fuel pump. Normal gas lubricates the fuel pump but running mostly ethanol does not and fuel pumps go bad quickly unless you use lubricating additive like Red Line. Or one can also upgrade to an aftermarket fuel pump rated to run E85.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 8, 2021)

Slapshot said:


> I've used Amsoil Interceptor in all my 2 stroke equipment for many years with no problems...


That's what I am currently using in both my Polaris 700 SKS & 850 RMK Mountain sleds . The Dominator was causing power valve fouling even with the oil injector pump leaned out . Amsoil Regional mgr. sent me their most recent bulletin , advising that Interceptor would be a better alternative for my recreational riding application . 2 yrs now with much better plug & power valve performance . I always run 94 octane Sunoco in these two high performance liquid cooled twins . Saber in all my handheld two strokes ! I think I may switch over to Interceptor from Maximma 927 semi caster in my 370 Can-Am Quailifier Enduro this spring .


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## calamari (Nov 8, 2021)

"Engine Masters" went out of their way to remove variables but I don't recall how they dealt with any of the sensors that were essential for the engine to run. 
My example of fuel economy wasn't even close to scientific since I still had a little gasoline in the tank for one fill up but barely made the station with the other. It seems counter intuitive that a fuel that makes more power and can run more ignition timing would have poorer fuel economy. If it takes 40 hp from an engine to go 70 mph at cruise setting then just the reduction in throttle plate opening from increased advance and the 3 hp increase from E 85 seems to result in better mileage, not worse but then everybody says it doesn't so that must be true.


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## calamari (Nov 8, 2021)

This guy does practical testing of various "things" in our life. He did a test of E 85 that verifies poorer fuel economy. I have no idea why mine jumped so much when I mistakenly put E 85 in my old POS but it was the only change and when I went back to 87 octane gas the fuel economy went back to its historic levels.
Look into some of the tests he does including chain saws and sharpeners.


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## KASH (Nov 9, 2021)

Well Broken we have another common love old LawnBoys.I have about 20 of them from a 1953 model 8 rope start with around 1.5hp one of the first LawnBoys after the rpm buy out to one of the last Duraforce models.The Dura force was a one piece casting job and the carbs were too lean and the coils were junk.My favorite is a 1958 5200 C engine with the tin foil air cleaner I went through three decks clearing my bush properties.The rewind on the c engine probably cost more to build than the Duraforce engine with its Mickey Mouse one piece modular carb.I also have a Toro with the two stroke runs great but I never use it because it is self propelled.
I mix all mine with quart of oil to 5 gallons gas.You can see the lowering of product quality with each newer model a crime for such a well built product at the start.
I have many garden tractors and a couple of tiny LawnBoy SnowBoy snow throwers but I have a burning need for a LawnBoy Loafer rider .I have never saw one in real life but they look way cool.
Kash


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## TonyCH (Nov 9, 2021)

calamari said:


> I have no idea why mine jumped so much when I mistakenly put E 85 in my old POS but it was the only change and when I went back to 87 octane gas the fuel economy went back to its historic levels.


I have no idea either, other than it might have run lean for some reason. Most probably your ecu was not advanced/smart enough or not performance orientated enough to make use of the higher octane. Most simpler ecus only learn for the first 20-40 miles and then settle to preprogrammed fuel and timing tables. So, they don't really do anything smart if wrong fuel is used. This can lead to engine damage so don't recommend trying E85 without some thought of what should be done.

EDIT: just saw that you have a '88 Chevy. Yeah, I think the most advanced Chevy fuel injected car at that time was the Vette with the Bosch designed TPI injection. Even those ecus (ECMs) are very limited in functionality and could not adjust to E85 by itself. At minimum a ecu chip tuning would be needed.

To make use of the E85 one must reprogram the ecu to use E85 and/or use a conversion kit with an ethanol sensor and control electronics. Most commonly the performance guys use the reprogramming method and common users buy the conversion kit. Some modern conversion kits also are programmable so they are fine for performance applications too. Both approaches work ok.

Ps. This is the manufacturer whos kit I used. They only had one model a year ago and it was about half the price of the plus model. Maybe its the eco-model now?


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## calamari (Nov 9, 2021)

TonyCH said:


> I have no idea either, other than it might have run lean for some reason. Most probably your ecu was not advanced/smart enough or not performance orientated enough to make use of the higher octane. Most simpler ecus only learn for the first 20-40 miles and then settle to preprogrammed fuel and timing tables. So, they don't really do anything smart if wrong fuel is used. This can lead to engine damage so don't recommend trying E85 without some thought of what should be done.
> 
> EDIT: just saw that you have a '88 Chevy. Yeah, I think the most advanced Chevy fuel injected car at that time was the Vette with the Bosch designed TPI injection. Even those ecus (ECMs) are very limited in functionality and could not adjust to E85 by itself. At minimum a ecu chip tuning would be needed.
> 
> ...


It was a one time goof up on my part that saved me a few bucks. I imagine that being at relatively high altitude (4,500') and light load (pretty flat freeway with no passes to go over) the O2 sensor and limited ECU capability leaned it out to compensate for a rich condition at high altitude giving better mileage because it probably over leaned the engine. All I can say is that I didn't blow it up and get myself stuck 50 miles from another human being with no cell coverage in a blizzard and die...like it used to be before phones allowed foolish behavior to not be fatal.


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## North by Northwest (Nov 9, 2021)

KASH said:


> Well Broken we have another common love old LawnBoys.I have about 20 of them from a 1953 model 8 rope start with around 1.5hp one of the first LawnBoys after the rpm buy out to one of the last Duraforce models.The Dura force was a one piece casting job and the carbs were too lean and the coils were junk.My favorite is a 1958 5200 C engine with the tin foil air cleaner I went through three decks clearing my bush properties.The rewind on the c engine probably cost more to build than the Duraforce engine with its Mickey Mouse one piece modular carb.I also have a Toro with the two stroke runs great but I never use it because it is self propelled.
> I mix all mine with quart of oil to 5 gallons gas.You can see the lowering of product quality with each newer model a crime for such a well built product at the start.
> I have many garden tractors and a couple of tiny LawnBoy SnowBoy snow throwers but I have a burning need for a LawnBoy Loafer rider .I have never saw one in real life but they look way cool.
> Your right , when Toro bought out Lawnboy it was the last nail in the coffin , unfortunate . The duraforce had a few yrs of leading the pack until cost savings and cheaper construction & inferior components lead to its demise !


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## OM617YOTA (Nov 9, 2021)

The newer flex fuel vehicles don't use an ethanol sensor. Just a wide band O2 sensor, programming to recognize what's going on, and big enough injectors that the computer can richen things up enough, when needed.


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## TonyCH (Nov 9, 2021)

Yeah, the conversion kits for older vehicles do however, as its much easier than to go with a wide band, which the original ecu does not understand.


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## Joisey (Nov 13, 2021)

I spoke to a rep at Amsoil and was told that their Saber professional oil (yellow label) has zero ash.


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## thenne1713 (Dec 12, 2021)

Broken said:


> Kash your engines don't even start up North due to the extreme Cold , let alone oil failure related , its due to Cold seizure !


I seized a ring on a 2-day old $700 saw, but did not realize... due to med issues, did not crank for 2-1/2-year, so out of warranty, quoted $640 to repair w/ new PC-Kit (Later repaired for $12 w/ new ring); looked like Magic Marker, film so thin locked down that piston ring on what was otherwise spotless piston. Oil was (Namebrand-c, petro non-syn, 40:1); I have since run Echo synthetic 50:1 w/ beautiful results for past 13-years... I chose ECHO Power Blend because 1) Synthetic; 2) Echo was FIRST to offer 5-year warranty, so they believe in their oil? i WOULD NOT fear any synthetic or syn blend name brand


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## Brufab (Jan 4, 2022)

Anyone use that opti-II multi ratio oil in there saws that take 16-1? Thanks fellas!


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## champion221elite (Jan 4, 2022)

Amsoil Sabre. Mixed at 40:1. Minimal smoke, burns clean and no problems for years now.


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## Ronaldo (Jan 4, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Anyone use that opti-II multi ratio oil in there saws that take 16-1? Thanks fellas!


I have used the Opti-II at 40 to 1 for a lot of yrs. I really like it. No deposits and a nice light film on all internals.

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


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## huskyespañol (Jan 4, 2022)

Husqvarna xp 40/1 - 50/1.
Gasolina 95 octanos en invierno / 98octanos en verano


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## North by Northwest (Jan 5, 2022)

Slapshot said:


> I've used Amsoil Interceptor in all my 2 stroke equipment for many years with no problems...


Actually one of the best all around medium to severe service 2 stroke oils Amsoil produces . I currently use it in my Polaris 700 SKS snowmobile & my 370 Can-am Qualifier Enduro . Previously had used Amsoil Dominator , but found that it was better used on serious extreme service applications , perhaps motocross or all out racing applications with snowmobiles or hotsaw etc.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 5, 2022)

sundance said:


> I did about the same. My stock is just about gone so I'll be looking for a replacement soon. Thinking Amsoil Dominator.


Dominator is only successful in a milling application saw oil ! lol.


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## sundance (Jan 6, 2022)

Broken said:


> Dominator is only successful in a milling application saw oil !


Well, i just bought 12 quarts for general 2 cycle mix use (saws, string trimmer, leaf blowers). Haven't used any yet, sure hope it works ok.


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## smokey7 (Jan 7, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> 3oz Klotz BeNol + 3oz Klotz R-50 mixed with 2gal of E30 = 44:1


Where and why are you buying e30???? Ive never seen anybody seek out ethanol fuels for *** in my life.


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## holeycow (Jan 7, 2022)

sundance said:


> Well, i just bought 12 quarts for general 2 cycle mix use (saws, string trimmer, leaf blowers). Haven't used any yet, sure hope it works ok.


It will be fine.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2022)

sundance said:


> Well, i just bought 12 quarts for general 2 cycle mix use (saws, string trimmer, leaf blowers). Haven't used any yet, sure hope it works ok.


Saber is a much better oil for your application . It is recommended for hand held 2 stroke blowers , saws & blowers . Dominator was originally designed for xcross & snowmobiles in racing applications . Ensure you tune your units for the mix . A lot of complaints of carbon & sponge if your temps are not high enough for the mix ratio !


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## holeycow (Jan 7, 2022)

Ran dominator in mx bikes for years. I searched for a clean burning oil at 30:1 in the race bikes. Dominator and Elf something-or-other were the clear winners. I prefered the Elf brand, but alas it was hard to find around here. Motul 700 was not too bad, 800 spooged.

interceptor was also decent, but spooged a bit at 30:1. Probably third place for me behind dominator and whatever the particular Elf formulation was.

Honda HP2 spooged, yamalube spooged and built-up, and about 3 or 4 others I tried did not perform as well as the dominator. I didn't try sabre. Perhaps I should have..

you'll be fine like I said. Just run them like you stole them at about 40:1.


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## huskihl (Jan 7, 2022)

Dominator runs really clean on my stuff. A hard carbon layer on top of the piston showing the transfer wash pattern and no carbon on the squish band, combustion chamber, or in the exhaust port.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 7, 2022)

holeycow said:


> Ran dominator in mx bikes for years. I searched for a clean burning oil at 30:1 in the race bikes. Dominator and Elf something-or-other were the clear winners. I prefered the Elf brand, but alas it was hard to find around here. Motul 700 was not too bad, 800 spooged.
> 
> interceptor was also decent, but spooged a bit at 30:1. Probably third place for me behind dominator and whatever the particular Elf formulation was.
> 
> ...


Absolutely , Dominator can be used if the individual , understands proper tuning . Apparently many of Amsoil clientele do not . The Regional Mgr. up North contacted me 2 yrs ago to advise that they may be discontinuing the sale of Dominator . That's when I switch my Can-am 370 Qualifier back to Opti-2 & my Polaris 700 SKS to Interceptor @ Amsoils advice . I run both @ 40: 1 . I had run the Qualifier @ 50:1 with the Dominator with no issues . However I know a few buddies who have had power valve issues with the Dominator @ 40:1 , so was not surprised when the Amsoil Mgr. contacted me. Dominator is still available but Amsoil has expressed only for Racing applications for Bikes & Snow-Cross or other Recreation Vehicle Racing Applications , not hand held air cooled units . As your quite aware any premium oil used within properly tuned units will perform adequately . I currently use Saber in all my saws , blowers & trimmers @ 50:1 other than a few ported units which see 44:1 & one Milling saw @ 40:1 for over 18 yrs no issues . Just my personal. opinion from my experiences .


----------



## bwalker (Jan 7, 2022)

holeycow said:


> Ran dominator in mx bikes for years. I searched for a clean burning oil at 30:1 in the race bikes. Dominator and Elf something-or-other were the clear winners. I prefered the Elf brand, but alas it was hard to find around here. Motul 700 was not too bad, 800 spooged.
> 
> interceptor was also decent, but spooged a bit at 30:1. Probably third place for me behind dominator and whatever the particular Elf formulation was.
> 
> ...


Spooge is most of the time from poor tuning. Yamalube, HP2 do not spooge at all in mx bikes or saws when tuned properly.


----------



## Casawfan (Jan 7, 2022)

Czed said:


> Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil 40/1
> View attachment 925184
> 
> At least 8 gallons through this 372
> The tree monkey turned me on to this 4 year's ago.


Help me understand the purpose of that shelf ground into the exhaust


----------



## huskihl (Jan 7, 2022)

Casawfan said:


> Help me understand the purpose of that shelf ground into the exhaust


Most huskies are like that from the factory


----------



## holeycow (Jan 7, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Spooge is most of the time from poor tuning. Yamalube, HP2 do not spooge at all in mx bikes or saws when tuned properly.


I could not get anything to run as clean as dominator (and Elf) at 30:1. I had lots of brass and needles and some chrome to work with. So I don't agree. I could not get to 30:1 with HP2 or yamalube without spooge. 40:1 sure.
I wasn't interested in tuning for the oil, I was interested in tuning for about 30:1. My bottom ends lasted long.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 7, 2022)

holeycow said:


> I could not get anything to run as clean as dominator (and Elf) at 30:1. I had lots of brass and needles and some chrome to work with. So I don't agree. I could not get to 30:1 with HP2 or yamalube without spooge. 40:1 sure.
> I wasn't interested in tuning for the oil, I was interested in tuning for about 30:1. My bottom ends lasted long.


I've ran all those at 32:1 and have always had bone dry silencers. This pertains to Yz250's, CR 250's, CR 500's. It can be done.
What bike where you running these oils in?
I don't use Amsoil, but know people who do and dominator caused crank corrosion. Not heresy either as I observed it with my own eyes.
If I was going to use a Amsoil product in a saw it would be Saber, but certainly not at that 100:1 non sense.
Lastly, as it pertains to Yamalube 2R you can easily spend 3 times as much for a product that isn't as good. It's a damn good oil.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

smokey7 said:


> Where and why are you buying e30???? Ive never seen anybody seek out ethanol fuels for *** in my life.


I splash mix E30 using regular 87 and E85. 
E30: 2 gal E85 + 3 gal 87 = 5 gal E30.

I began my own research into the effects of Ethanol (alcohol) in gas engines about 4 yrs ago, as it seemed to me that anytime anyone would talk about it, all they could do is regurgitate the BS that they were told by somebody else. Who all just point to the sticker on every gas pump in the U.S. And without even considering any other chemical that gets added to gasoline during blending. What many people do not know is that gasoline also contains Benzene, Toluene, Ethyl Benzene, and Xylene. This is an Aromatics package that is used in the place of Tetraethyl Lead. I have first hand experience with these chemicals by working in various manufacturing facilities, and have seen their affects on various plastics and rubber parts. After discovering their presence in pump gas the issues were clear to me.
So...here I am, 4 years into this experiment and ZERO "Ethanol" issues. I run E30 in all of my ****** and E50 in all of my non-FFV vehicles. 
I do all the of the things you shouldn't do with regard to "E" fuel, I don't drain tanks on equipment that's stored, and my fuel containers sit outside in the elements! Admittedly though 5 gallons of fuel barely gets me through a month.

I also do this for a cleaner burning low-odor alternative to "Pump Trash".
@smokey7 If you feel that you are an open minded individual and want to know more, feel free to PM me.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> I splash mix E30 using regular 87 and E85.
> E30: 2 gal E85 + 3 gal 87 = 5 gal E30.
> 
> I began my own research into the effects of Ethanol (alcohol) in gas engines about 4 yrs ago, as it seemed to me that anytime anyone would talk about it, all they could do is regurgitate the BS that they were told by somebody else. Who all just point to the sticker on every gas pump in the U.S. And without even considering any other chemical that gets added to gasoline during blending. What many people do not know is that gasoline also contains Benzene, Toluene, Ethyl Benzene, and Xylene. This is an Aromatics package that is used in the place of Tetraethyl Lead. I have first hand experience with these chemicals by working in various manufacturing facilities, and have seen their affects on various plastics and rubber parts. After discovering their presence in pump gas the issues were clear to me.
> ...


The EPA has severly limited BTX AKA aromatics in pump gas for years. 
Are you aware that the combustion of Ethanol forms formaldehyde?


----------



## Avisagio (Jan 8, 2022)

32:1 motul 800


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 8, 2022)

Johnson / Evinrude XD50 32:1 in my lawn boys 
echo power blend for everything else at 50:1


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 8, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Johnson / Evinrude XD50 32:1 in my lawn boys
> echo power blend for everything else at 50:1


A good TCW-3 as Lawnboy recommends basically a good FB rated oil without the bells & whistles . Good low temp pour point however which makes it quite suitable for the Etec direct injection systems OMC now manufacturers .


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The EPA has severly limited BTX AKA aromatics in pump gas for years.
> Are you aware that the combustion of Ethanol forms formaldehyde?


Another perk of Efuel , cutting the cost of embalming , who would have thought !


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Are you aware that the combustion of Ethanol forms formaldehyde?


And you continue to regurgitate BS.... Do you have any evidence to back that claim?


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The EPA has severly limited BTX AKA aromatics in pump gas for years.


This argument is hilarious!! "SEVERLY" Limited" Allow me to help you understand your "severly limited" amounts!

There are 124 oil refineries operating in the U.S. Texas holds 27 of them. To keep the numbers modest I will only focus on Texas refineries.
The 27 refineries in Texas produce about 4.6 million barrels of refined gasoline/ day. Or 193,200,000 gallons of gasoline or 193.2 million gallons /day
Benzene and Ethyl Benzene are distributed by % Vol. @ a range of .1 - .9 according to any MSDS you look at.
At .1% of 193.2 million gallons of gasoline, the minimal amount of just Benzene will be equal to 193,200 gallons, add another 193,200 gallons for Ethyl Benzene since they are both distributed at similar rates.

Now for the big picture
The 124 refineries operating in the U.S. process about 19 million barrels of crude /day, or about 798 million gallons of crude /day. 
Let that sink into your "severly limited" argument.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

Well I guess I will have to do it my self. 
Evidence that bwalker is full of S. H. I. T.


----------



## Okie294life (Jan 8, 2022)

clemsonfor said:


> I'm not trying to start an oil war or super long post but I know there is a good chance I do.
> 
> I need to buy some more and want to know what folks are useing. Several years back I used some bel rat, the. Uses a few quarts of amsoil, then got some Lucas but quit when someone told me it left their says dryer and less oily residue than other worse oils so I quit useing it. I got a qt of Raiseman semi syn that I just used up last I mixed. I am going to have to use the last of the Lucas that I have untill I buy something else and was wondering what folks are useing these days.


Red Armour, when I run out of hp ultra (stihl) I like it because it’s red, and it doesn’t smell like burning plastic or trash like ultra. It also seems to mix better at different ratios. If it wasn’t red armour I’d probably be using husqvarna premix, it’s good stuff as well and doesn’t smell like burning trash.


----------



## Okie294life (Jan 8, 2022)

clemsonfor said:


> I have heard really good things about red armor echo oil. It's on Amazon by the gallon for a good price that still is many years of oil for me and I'd rather not spend $60 today on oil. I also like semi synthetic having heard that the dino oil base sticks around longer on parts when a saw may sit up for expltended periods.


It’s good stuff and it comes in a metering bottle you can mix what ratio you’re after. It’s a lot better than the power blend. That stuffs gummy as hell and must not be Ashless because it smokes a lot.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> This argument is hilarious!! "SEVERLY" Limited" Allow me to help you understand your "severly limited" amounts!
> 
> There are 124 oil refineries operating in the U.S. Texas holds 27 of them. To keep the numbers modest I will only focus on Texas refineries.
> The 27 refineries in Texas produce about 4.6 million barrels of refined gasoline/ day. Or 193,200,000 gallons of gasoline or 193.2 million gallons /day
> ...


Fun with numbers aside it's not the total it's the concentration.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> And you continue to regurgitate BS.... Do you have any evidence to back that claim?


Yea, I do. But it's not my job to educate you. You can find the info your looking for on the first page of a Google search.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Fun with numbers aside it's not the total it's the concentration.


S. H. I. T. comments with ZERO context.....Well done!



I think I'll post this again, so people can read it again.



bwalker said:


> Are you aware that the combustion of Ethanol forms formaldehyde?








And Ethanol is not a Hydrocarbon!


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 8, 2022)

Broken said:


> A good TCW-3 as Lawnboy recommends basically a good FB rated oil without the bells & whistles . Good low temp pour point however which makes it quite suitable for the Etec direct injection systems OMC now manufacturers .


My lawn boy is from 1973 and specs 32:1 it is a D600 and the Johnson / Evinrude oil is superior to the Schaeffer's which burns dirty. Since switching i have not had any more problems.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> S. H. I. T. comments with ZERO context.....Well done!
> 
> View attachment 954664
> 
> ...


You sure ethanol isn't a hydro carbon smart guy?
Might check this out while your at it.





Aldehyde Emission - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics







www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You sure ethanol isn't a hydro carbon smart guy?
> Might check this out while your at it.
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely sure!


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Absolutely sure!
> View attachment 954707


You are splitting hairs. It's technically a hydro carbon derivative, but for the sake of the discussion here would be better to call it a organic compound..oh brother.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Absolutely sure!
> View attachment 954707


The hydro carbon is BS distraction on your part.
Combustion of Ethanol absolutely forms aldehydes and that's a fact.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 8, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> My lawn boy is from 1973 and specs 32:1 it is a D600 and the Johnson / Evinrude oil is superior to the Schaeffer's which burns dirty. Since switching i have not had any more problems.


Never used Schaeffers was referring to the OMC product .


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

Broken said:


> Never used Schaeffers was referring to the OMC product .


The latest Evinrude TCW3 and Yamaha TCW3 oils both work well in lawnboys. As does Penzoil syn tcw3.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

OMG your killing me dude!!
This statement makes your comment about Formaldehyde completely mute!


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The hydro carbon is BS distraction on your part.
> Combustion of Ethanol absolutely forms aldehydes and that's a fact.


I'm sorry but your "standards" of "Facts" are quite low.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> OMG your killing me dude!!
> This statement makes your comment about Formaldehyde completely mute!
> View attachment 954722


Most chainsaws don't have a catalytic converter and none have a 3 way catalyst.
So no its not mute. You are running a high percentage ethanol mix because you are paranoid about minute levels of benzene, only to expose yourself to something just as bad and in much higher levels.


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## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> I'm sorry but your "standards" of "Facts" are quite low.


To be clear are you disputing the combustion of Ethanol doesn't for form aldahydes? Because it's a absolute fact that it indeed does.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 8, 2022)

bwalker said:


> To be clear are you disputing the combustion of Ethanol doesn't for form aldahydes? Because it's a absolute fact that it indeed does.


Of course you know it does because I provided as much to you. You simply don't want to admit you are wrong.


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## LoneOak (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Of course you know it does because I provided as much to you. You simply don't want to admit you are wrong.


How can I be wrong about something I never stated?



bwalker said:


> To be clear are you disputing the combustion of Ethanol doesn't for form aldahydes? Because it's a absolute fact that it indeed does.


Nope, I'm merely pointing out your incorrect statement of the subject.

Read the highlighted paragraph below. I think a reasonable person would come to the conclusion that the formation of formaldehyde in a chainsaw muffler is not likely.





bwalker said:


> Most chainsaws don't have a catalytic converter and none have a 3 way catalyst.
> So no its not mute. You are running a high percentage ethanol mix because you are paranoid about minute levels of benzene, only to expose yourself to something just as bad and in much higher levels.


I'm certainly not concerned about the miniscule levels of pollutants emitted from the exhaust of my O. P. E., If I were I would not be operating any kind of O. P. E. with out a hazmat suit. 

I run E30 for the performance boost, cooler cleaner burn characteristics and low odor. I also like that there is less B.T.E.X. in all of my fuel.

The discussion was about the damage falsely attributed to Ethanol, that are in fact caused by the B.T.E.X. chemicals. You brought out the word "Formaldehyde" and I decided to bust your chops for it.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> How can I be wrong about something I never stated?
> 
> 
> Nope, I'm merely pointing out your incorrect statement of the subject.
> ...


You don't have a clue what your talking about.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

In addition here are lab results of gasoline made tonight on benzene content your so worried about.


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## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> How can I be wrong about something I never stated?
> 
> 
> Nope, I'm merely pointing out your incorrect statement of the subject.
> ...


BTEX is at miniscule levels in gasoline and as such doesn't harm a thing.
I only bring Formaldehyde because it a fools errand to worry about miniscule amounts of BTEX while at he same time increasing the aldehyde emmissions of your motors.
And let's be honest. The only thing you know is based on Google. You have no refining industry expiereance nore any education in the subject. As a result you grasp at straws and reach false conclusions.
And last but not least. If you think E30 boosts your performance you are nuts. Unless lower HP, compromised lubrication and and increased fuel use is a boost in performance to you.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> BTEX is at miniscule levels in gasoline and as such doesn't harm a thing.
> I only bring Formaldehyde because it a fools errand to worry about miniscule amounts of BTEX while at he same time increasing the aldehyde emmissions of your motors.
> And let's be honest. The only thing you know is based on Google. You have no refining industry expiereance nore any education in the subject. As a result you grasp at straws and reach false conclusions.
> And last but not least. If you think E30 boosts your performance you are nuts. Unless lower HP, compromised lubrication and and increased fuel use is a boost in performance to you.


*"BTEX is at miniscule levels in gasoline and as such doesn't harm a thing." *So you don't understand what minuscule amounts add up too? And you think carcinogens are not harmful.
* "I only bring Formaldehyde because it a fools errand to worry about miniscule amounts of BTEX while at he same time increasing the aldehyde emmissions of your motors." *Again it's debatable whether or not it can even exist in the exhaust of a small engine.
*"Formaldehyde is a kind of intermediate product in the combustion process. Temperature in the cylinder is so high that it is not suitable for the generation of formaldehyde, because the existing time in the high temperature gas is extremely short. Accordingly, it is mainly generated in the exhaust pipe from unburned methanol, and its generation depends on the amount of unburned methanol, exhaust temperature and reaction time." -© 2014 Jordan Journal of Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. All rights reserved - Volume 8, Number 2 (ISSN 1995-6665)

"And let's be honest. The only thing you know is based on Google. You have no refining industry expiereance nore any education in the subject. As a result you grasp at straws and reach false conclusions." * <------ In Psychology, we call this "Narcissistic Deflection"

*"And last but not least. If you think E30 boosts your performance you are nuts. Unless lower HP, compromised lubrication and and increased fuel use is a boost in performance to you."* LOL, This is soooo 3rd grade! And you say I grasp at straws!


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> *"BTEX is at miniscule levels in gasoline and as such doesn't harm a thing." *So you don't understand what minuscule amounts add up too? And you think carcinogens are not harmful.
> * "I only bring Formaldehyde because it a fools errand to worry about miniscule amounts of BTEX while at he same time increasing the aldehyde emmissions of your motors." *Again it's debatable whether or not it can even exist in the exhaust of a small engine.
> *"Formaldehyde is a kind of intermediate product in the combustion process. Temperature in the cylinder is so high that it is not suitable for the generation of formaldehyde, because the existing time in the high temperature gas is extremely short. Accordingly, it is mainly generated in the exhaust pipe from unburned methanol, and its generation depends on the amount of unburned methanol, exhaust temperature and reaction time." -© 2014 Jordan Journal of Mechanical and Industrial Engineering. All rights reserved - Volume 8, Number 2 (ISSN 1995-6665)
> 
> ...


You have been lead to water..


----------



## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Ultra really is terrible oil sold at top dollar. Any other OEM oil is much better.


Sources?


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> That's a pretty bold claim, what are your sources?


Stihl itself. Ultra is a FB rated oil that's several generations behind the FD oils like Red Armour Husky XP, etc.
On top of that when the 361 first came out I was given two 6 packs of the stuff. Was astounded how dirty it was.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Sources?





bwalker said:


> Stihl itself. Ultra is a FB rated oil that's several generations behind the FD oils like Red Armour Husky XP, etc.
> On top of that when the 361 first came out I was given two 6 packs of the stuff. Was astounded how dirty it was.


I’d rather argue with walker 9/10 times. He’s probably not wrong on the ultra. I’d run basically anything but that. The orange bottle stihl is even superior. 

a guy on another forum did some extensive testing. It ranked amongst the worst 

the worst were stens , Lucas , ultra. 
The winner was amsoil dominater 
stihl orange bottle did perform well 
Most decent oils did well. 
Stay away from the three mentioned and you’ll be more than fine with a good tune


----------



## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

So no real source, just opinion. Thanks.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> So no real source, just opinion. Thanks.


I’d give you a link to the thread but it can’t be posted here.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

Honestly run whatever you like. It was torture tested at 300:1. Along with a crap ton of other oils. The orange bottle stihl did far better than the silver. I listed the worst performances. Those are 3 I’d not use. 

I’m not the only one on this thread that saw it. Some builders of ported saws including some at this website switched to the amsoil dominater. 

because of egg shooters test…. 
I’ll switch myself when I run out of oil again. 

dead serious just trying to help.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> So no real source, just opinion. Thanks.



Here’s my source. Again this was a torture test. But lots of us were shocked. No one should run 200:1.


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

I appreciate the feedback. I'm certainly not brand loyal and am not defending the oil. But without seeing verified testing it is hard not to question claims like that....Stihl happens to make a pretty good saw, it is hard to imagine they can not spec an equally good oil. 
Here is an question, if the standard oil is better than the Ultra why does Stihl double the warranty with purchase of the Ultra but not the standard? Does Stihl not know their own products? It is a genuine question, not looking for arguments. Thanks.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> I appreciate the feedback. I'm certainly not brand loyal and am not defending the oil. But without seeing verified testing it is hard not to question claims like that....Stihl happens to make a pretty good saw, it is hard to imagine they can not spec an equally good oil.
> Here is an question, if the standard oil is better than the Ultra why does Stihl double the warranty with purchase of the Ultra but not the standard? Does Stihl not know their own products? It is a genuine question, not looking for arguments. Thanks.


Stihl makes a damn fine saw. One of the best. I’m not sure why their best oil is so expensive I’ve heard if it’s ran at 50:1 it does ok. From again a source that builds saws. I’m not an oil guy. I run whatever. 
After reading here and there for years and seeing photos of what the silver bottle stihl does Well that’s why I steer people away from it. 
Lucas wore a saw out for me. Every builder hates it. 
So that’s why those two are especially a no go for me. 
Im no scientist Man lol. Just learned from observation from myself and those I trust on the websites I frequent


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

I’ve seen some photos of stihl ultra ran at higher ratios say 40:1 Seems to leave a bunch of crap deposits everywhere. To the point of sticking rings. With the zillion other options out there I try to point others in a different direction.


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## BerkshirePaws (Jan 9, 2022)

For decades ran a couple of old Homelites, a cheap poulan and on old Jonsered. Used any two stroke (not outboard) oil that came to hand. About a year ago I broke down and bought a bright shiny new Husqvarna 460. Figured after dropping that coin I’d go with their oil. XP+. To tell the truth never noticed much difference with the before and don’t now but for the five gallons of mix I burn a year (+/-) I figure why not. Mix with E0 gas and all is good. Anyone have any issues with the XP+?

On a side note, I wonder how useful the torture test of 300:1 ratios is. I kind of feel like yes it tells you which oil is better at extreme low ratio but it’s nowhere near real world use. Not saying the Stihl oil is good or not, just saying that testing anything way outside the normal use parameters is of very limited utility.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

BerkshirePaws said:


> For decades ran a couple of old Homelites, a cheap poulan and on old Jonsered. Used any two stroke (not outboard) oil that came to hand. About a year ago I broke down and bought a bright shiny new Husqvarna 460. Figured after dropping that coin I’d go with their oil. XP+. To tell the truth never noticed much difference with the before and don’t now but for the five gallons of mix I burn a year (+/-) I figure why not. Mix with E0 gas and all is good. Anyone have any issues with the XP+?
> 
> On a side note, I wonder how useful the torture test of 300:1 ratios is. I kind of feel like yes it tells you which oil is better at extreme low ratio but it’s nowhere near real world use. Not saying the Stihl oil is good or not, just saying that testing anything way outside the normal use parameters is of very limited utility.


I believe xp did well. It’s not on my no go list. Agree. 200-1 was the test. Some may have been tested at 300. I forgot. But I figure the chainsaw oils that held up to that should hold up to say a lean tune 
It was surprising how well some regular chainsaw oils did at lean ratio torture tests.


----------



## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

BerkshirePaws said:


> On a side note, I wonder how useful the torture test of 300:1 ratios is. I kind of feel like yes it tells you which oil is better at extreme low ratio but it’s nowhere near real world use. Not saying the Stihl oil is good or not, just saying that testing anything way outside the normal use parameters is of very limited utility.


My thoughts exactly. It's not very telling, especially not knowing the variables. What saws were used? Was it a true non bias test? How exact were the ratios? New or used engines? If used, how many hours on each engine? Was ALL the previous mix completely drained and ran out? 
Lots of questions for sure. Like you, I began using Stihl oil when I bought my new 460 many years ago. I figured based on the warranty it couldn't be a bad oil, the saw is now pushing 15 years on Stihl oil with no teardown. I've got a few newer saws with more hours, same results. But I am just a homeowner and only cut 12-15 cords a year plus clean up and the occasional favor for a friend or family member.


----------



## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> I appreciate the feedback. I'm certainly not brand loyal and am not defending the oil. But without seeing verified testing it is hard not to question claims like that....Stihl happens to make a pretty good saw, it is hard to imagine they can not spec an equally good oil.
> Here is an question, if the standard oil is better than the Ultra why does Stihl double the warranty with purchase of the Ultra but not the standard? Does Stihl not know their own products? It is a genuine question, not looking for arguments. Thanks.


I’ve ported saws for 7-8 years now, hoping to have enough to do it full time this year. So I dig into about 150 saws per year. Here’s what I’ve learned. Folks who run Ultra at 50:1 have “relatively “ clean pistons and cylinders. But on the newer strato saws there is no excess oil anywhere. The bottom end bearings are dry. Even the crank journals are dry to the touch. This would indicate the need for more oil. If you run it at 32:1, the bottom end is still marginally lubricated, but carbon buildup is everywhere. This buildup shows evidence of flaking off also. I’ve seen this flaking cause smearing on the piston when a chunk gets caught at the top of the exhaust port. It builds carbon because it’s an fb rated oil. FC and FD rated oils have detergent in them and some will actually run cleaner with more oil in the mix. The difference in both the amount of carbon formed and residual oil left behind between Stihl Ultra and Red Armor is staggering.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> My thoughts exactly. It's not very telling, especially not knowing the variables. What saws were used? Was it a true non bias test? How exact were the ratios? New or used engines? If used, how many hours on each engine? Was ALL the previous mix completely drained and ran out?
> Lots of questions for sure. Like you, I began using Stihl oil when I bought my new 460 many years ago. I figured based on the warranty it couldn't be a bad oil, the saw is now pushing 15 years on Stihl oil with no teardown. I've got a few newer saws with more hours, same results. But I am just a homeowner and only cut 12-15 cords a year plus clean up and the occasional favor for a friend or family member.


The tests were pretty good tests. There’s always variables. Temperatures were even listed. Mixes were exact. Pictures of the tear downs were pretty obvious. 

15 cords a year is a prettty good bit of work. I’ll just say there’s lots of better options out there. The tests were done for fun by a chainsaw nut. 
My hatred for silver bottle stihl just comes from the years of picture results. Carbon build up. Stuck rings. 
Hell if you run the saw hot enough it may burn the excess carbon up anyhow. 
It’s certainly not the best available. I wish stihl would make a better blend 
The forum guys that have been around a while all hate it.

there’s my sources and basically all the input I’ve got on the subject. 
there’s plenty of better air cooled oils out there.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

Listen to @huskihl This is one of the guys I legit trust. He knows more about saws than most. Good brother to know


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve ported saws for 7-8 years now, hoping to have enough to do it full time this year. So I dig into about 150 saws per year. Here’s what I’ve learned. Folks who run Ultra at 50:1 have “relatively “ clean pistons and cylinders. But on the newer strato saws there is no excess oil anywhere. The bottom end bearings are dry. Even the crank journals are dry to the touch. This would indicate the need for more oil. If you run it at 32:1, the bottom end is still marginally lubricated, but carbon buildup is everywhere. This buildup shows evidence of flaking off also. I’ve seen this flaking cause smearing on the piston when a chunk gets caught at the top of the exhaust port. It builds carbon because it’s an fb rated oil. FC and FD rated oils have detergent in them and some will actually run cleaner with more oil in the mix. The difference in both the amount of carbon formed and residual oil left behind between Stihl Ultra and Red Armor is staggering.




Thank you for your input. 
You mention the strato saws and the dry appearance of the internals, what kind of problems are showing up from people that stick to the recommended mixture?


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> The tests were pretty good tests. There’s always variables. Temperatures were even listed. Mixes were exact. Pictures of the tear downs were pretty obvious.
> 
> 15 cords a year is a prettty good bit of work. I’ll just say there’s lots of better options out there. The tests were done for fun by a chainsaw nut.
> My hatred for silver bottle stihl just comes from the years of picture results. Carbon build up. Stuck rings.
> ...



It seems like it but I know people that cut even more.... I cut for our home 8-10 chords, the extra is for an elderly couple down the road that are on fixed income and have no choice but to heat with wood. I give them the good neighbor discount 
I live close to a state park and have also sold a little during the summer. Actually the kids sell it and pocket the money, a little kickback for all the free work they do around here


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

If bearings are running dry. They aren’t as lubricated as you’d like to see. So you’ll be wearing more. Which would likely cause failure to be premature. 

I found this to be the case with Lucas oil at 40:1. The bearings wore until there was enough play for the piston to tap the cylinder roof. 
Ideally you’d like to see moist bearings when you open a saw


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> It seems like it but I know people that cut even more.... I cut for our home 8-10 chords, the extra is for an elderly couple down the road that are on fixed income and have no choice but to heat with wood. I give them the good neighbor discount
> I live close to a state park and have also sold a little during the summer. Actually the kids sell it and pocket the money, a little kickback for all the free work they do around here


Love it lol. Good lookin out for those old folks. 
I sold wood as a kid too. Same idea. Good deal!


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Thank you for your input.
> You mention the strato saws and the dry appearance of the internals, what kind of problems are showing up from people that stick to the recommended mixture?


Bearings and cranks need replaced more often, but it’s not common. Stihl bearings appear to be pretty well made.


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## Reesedlightning (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Bearings and cranks need replaced more often, but it’s not common. Stihl bearings appear to be pretty well made.


Agreed. If I can, I always try to keep the Stihl oem bearings over am for that reason. 

I had no idea about Stihl oil until I got my 064 ported by Rattler. Before he sent the saw back to me he told me, no Stihl or husky oil. Burns dirty. He recommended red armor, yamalube, or motul and run at 40:1. Followed the man’s directions and all my saws have been running cleaner it seems.


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

Well now I'm down the rabbit hole. Never researched 2 cycle oil, this could be dangerous. What to make of this test? I am always suspicious of a test that is not either blind or 3rd party. Would such a company put their reputation on the line by skewing results? I'd like to think not.....

Edit....link fixed



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://slideplayer.com/amp/7077935/&ved=2ahUKEwjFsMWQ8aT1AhXBGc0KHQPtAosQFnoECDcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3vu_hI0pR7XThK76sFoR0r


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Well now I'm down the rabbit hole. Never researched 2 cycle oil, this could be dangerous. What to make of this test? I am always suspicious of a test that is not either blind or 3rd party. Would such a company put their reputation on the line by skewing results? I'd like to think not.....
> 
> Edit....link fixed
> 
> ...


It was designed to run in their 4 stroke 4 mix engine. It should be a good oil for that.


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

Also, trying to understand the significance of only being JASO FB rated. According to JASO website,



> FB corresponds to high lubricity performance but without any low-smoke technology.
> FC meets the FB lubricity standards but also is a low-smoke lubricant.
> FD corresponds to higher detergency properties than the other two grades, meets the lubricity requirements and has low smoke requirements.



The low smoke requirement is self explanatory but not a performance indicator of the oil as far as the saw is concerned, which leaves the higher requirements of detergency to combat carbon buildup as the main difference between FB and FD? 

Is it possible that Stihl simply has not paid for the new certification of the JASO spec? I know this has happened in the past with certain oils like Amsoil and Schaeffers. Schaeffer finally began carrying the CK4 on their 5w40 diesel engine oil even though they passed the tests 2 or 3 years ago. API licensing is expensive, especially for smaller companies. 

Thanks to all for your input, it is appreciated.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It was designed to run in their 4 stroke 4 mix engine. It should be a good oil for that.


Probably a good choice for say a stihl blower
But maybe not so much for a saw?


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## BerkshirePaws (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Well now I'm down the rabbit hole. Never researched 2 cycle oil, this could be dangerous. What to make of this test? I am always suspicious of a test that is not either blind or 3rd party. Would such a company put their reputation on the line by skewing results? I'd like to think not.....


I don’t know if a company like Stihl would fake the results but would certainly pick the conditions of the test the most favor their product. One thing I notice is the oils they tested against. Where any of the more popular oils mentioned in this thread represented? Again, running WOT 24/7 for 500 hrs is not any kind of real world test. Limit tests are ok for systems with one variable but most systems have multiple variables. “Gee, ran this oil at 10:1 and 200:1 and it was no good.” It is interesting that some oil seemed to work for so long. At 200:1. Observations by someone like huskihl are probably as good as we are going to see in this forum.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Also, trying to understand the significance of only being JASO FB rated. According to JASO website,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Detergents are the main difference between b and d. I believe they did have it tested and it met fb.


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## JRM (Jan 9, 2022)

BerkshirePaws said:


> Where any of the more popular oils mentioned in this thread represented?



Two that stand out are the lower tier Stihl, which is better than the Ultra according to some, and Amsoil.



BerkshirePaws said:


> Observations by someone like huskihl are probably as good as we are going to see in this forum.


His perspective has been appreciated. Working on saws for a living certainly gives one a large data point in some ways, maybe not so much in others. I can only imagine the wonky crap people bring in, mixtures from one end of the spectrum to the next thinking they know better than the manufacturer, low octane ethanol gas sitting in the tank for lord knows how long, crap plugs or the wrong gap, or both, plugged air filters, and on and on. I'm sure the list is extensive. Lots of variables for sure that will lead to a saws demise.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The latest Evinrude TCW3 and Yamaha TCW3 oils both work well in lawnboys. As does Penzoil syn tcw3.


Yeah pretty well any TCW-3 product does well in the old Lawnboys , outboard motor oil has always been a favorite of OMC products! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> To be clear are you disputing the combustion of Ethanol doesn't for form aldahydes? Because it's a absolute fact that it indeed does.


Either of you guys babble on ethanol related health related issues are a mute point unless you operate your chainsaw within a telephone booth , can you provide some more prevelent ethanol fuel related dialogue....sheesh !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> Sources?


It stinks & causes sponge according to Mr Walker . Actually was designed for 4-Mix units , not chainsaws ! Watch your mix & it performs adequately for most applications @ 44:1 , but does have a distinct odor . Not my choice if preference !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Honestly run whatever you like. It was torture tested at 300:1. Along with a crap ton of other oils. The orange bottle stihl did far better than the silver. I listed the worst performances. Those are 3 I’d not use.
> 
> I’m not the only one on this thread that saw it. Some builders of ported saws including some at this website switched to the amsoil dominater.
> 
> ...


Interceptor is a much better overall product within saw usage or Saber . Dominator is a MX or Extreme Snowmobile performance oil . Excellent stuff , but you better have your tuning spot on or deposits will become an issue since it may not completely burn off in the fuel charge . P.S. I have used Dominator successfully in my ported 357 xp & ported ms660 Milling saw both which reach sufficient cylinder head temps @ 44:1 & 40:1 respectively to burn clean without any residue or very little carbon issues !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> If bearings are running dry. They aren’t as lubricated as you’d like to see. So you’ll be wearing more. Which would likely cause failure to be premature.
> 
> I found this to be the case with Lucas oil at 40:1. The bearings wore until there was enough play for the piston to tap the cylinder roof.
> Ideally you’d like to see moist bearings when you open a saw


A little pooling is Optimium within the crankcase !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Bearings and cranks need replaced more often, but it’s not common. Stihl bearings appear to be pretty well made.


Sporadic , premature piston slap issues also in air cooled MX applications within the same observed overall oil deficient applications !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> View attachment 954869
> Here’s my source. Again this was a torture test. But lots of us were shocked. No one should run 200:1.


No surprise that the Caster based oils with their anti galling properties performed well . No Saber , Dominator or Interceptor tested ??


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve ported saws for 7-8 years now, hoping to have enough to do it full time this year. So I dig into about 150 saws per year. Here’s what I’ve learned. Folks who run Ultra at 50:1 have “relatively “ clean pistons and cylinders. But on the newer strato saws there is no excess oil anywhere. The bottom end bearings are dry. Even the crank journals are dry to the touch. This would indicate the need for more oil. If you run it at 32:1, the bottom end is still marginally lubricated, but carbon buildup is everywhere. This buildup shows evidence of flaking off also. I’ve seen this flaking cause smearing on the piston when a chunk gets caught at the top of the exhaust port. It builds carbon because it’s an fb rated oil. FC and FD rated oils have detergent in them and some will actually run cleaner with more oil in the mix. The difference in both the amount of carbon formed and residual oil left behind between Stihl Ultra and Red Armor is staggering.


Yeah Ultra performs well in the intended 4-mix , trimmers or blowers , however has limitations within tuning in conventional saws . It can be tuned to perform however not a clean burning oil at those ratios in homeowner or even ported saw applications .


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Honestly run whatever you like. It was torture tested at 300:1. Along with a crap ton of other oils. The orange bottle stihl did far better than the silver. I listed the worst performances. Those are 3 I’d not use.
> 
> I’m not the only one on this thread that saw it. Some builders of ported saws including some at this website switched to the amsoil dominater.
> 
> ...


Which stens oil? because the pillow pack is packaged by opti but the other stens oil i don't know anything about.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The latest Evinrude TCW3 and Yamaha TCW3 oils both work well in lawnboys. As does Penzoil syn tcw3.


Wasn't real fond of how Schaeffer's performed but those oils you listed perform fine.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah Ultra performs well in the intended 4-mix , trimmers or blowers , however has limitations within tuning in conventional saws . It can be tuned to perform however not a clean burning oil at those ratios in homeowner or even ported saw applications .


Is ultra a ash less oil? i know it leaves a nasty deposits inside a engine and has a horrendous odor.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Detergents are the main difference between b and d. I believe they did have it tested and it met fb.


low smoke / odour & detergent / dispersent additives is the difference within (FB & FC) & the Superior Jaso FD ratings . The FD rated products allow much heavier oil to fuel ratios , since it will abate the potential. excessive carbon or smoking & odor issues . Actually if you ever noticed Sabre has a quite high viscosity , which is most likely why it allows leaner oil ratio's due also to high level of detergent / dispersent additive package .


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> View attachment 954869
> Here’s my source. Again this was a torture test. But lots of us were shocked. No one should run 200:1.


according to walmart website super tech full syn is rated API TC.


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## Hermio (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The EPA has severly limited BTX AKA aromatics in pump gas for years.
> Are you aware that the combustion of Ethanol forms formaldehyde?


Not if your engine is properly tuned.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Wasn't real fond of how Schaeffer's performed but those oils you listed perform fine.


Schaeffer may well be in the same oil class as Amsoil Dominator within your application bud . If you don't run it as recommended you will have " dirty oil issues " . If used as recommended by Amsoil it performs very well indeed ! I think I will check out the Schaeffers product line further for specific gravity / density & flash point characteristics .


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Interceptor is a much better overall product within saw usage or Saber . Dominator is a MX or Extreme Snowmobile performance oil . Excellent stuff , but you better have your tuning spot on or deposits will become an issue since it may not completely burn off in the fuel charge . P.S. I have used Dominator successfully in my ported 357 xp & ported ms660 Milling saw both which reach sufficient cylinder head temps @ 44:1 & 40:1 respectively to burn clean without any residue or very little carbon issues !


I got a bottle of interceptor but the lack of color bothers me.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Schaeffer may well be in the same oil class as Amsoil Dominator within your application bud . If you don't run it as recommended you will have " dirty oil issues " . If used as recommended by Amsoil it performs very well indeed ! I think I will check out the Schaeffers product line further for specific gravity / density & flash point characteristics .


i ran it in my lawn boy it is a TCW3 oil


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## Hermio (Jan 9, 2022)

Has anyone compared Stihl Ultra to Amsoil Saber in a Stihl MS500i? The fuel injection system should keep the optimum air/fuel ratio regardless of oil mix ratio, but Stihl has made it clear to me that their warranty does not extend to oil rations greater than 50:1.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> according to walmart website super tech full syn is rated API TC.


Yeah a FB / FC compliant Jaso type oil . However think it is a semi synthetic TCW marine grade oil , not a good saw oil choice !


jellyroll said:


> I got a bottle of interceptor but the lack of color bothers me.


I never worry about colour , I mix with a measuring cup & my containers are application specific labelled . When mixed at 50 : 1 it provides a distinct colour difference then straight gas , so I am know lol.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Probably a good choice for say a stihl blower
> But maybe not so much for a saw?


I don’t really know for certain, other than it was designed for them.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> i ran it in my lawn boy it is a TCW3 oil


Yeah well that will give you minimum quality protection with maximum fouling issue potential , like what Ultra users sometimes experience . Schaeffers also produces quality semi & full synthetics , which have been proven to be a premium world class snowmobile race oil . I have to check out my. Race oil guide that goes back to my Klotz Benol & R-50 caster oil race days lol.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> No surprise that the Caster based oils with their anti galling properties performed well . No Saber , Dominator or Interceptor tested ??


The castor based oils tested more in the middle of the pack due to the ring lands clogging up causing lack of compression.
Dominator, Red Armor, and Honda HP2 we’re in the top 5. Saber was about #10. Interceptor wasn’t tested


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah well that will give you minimum quality protection with maximum fouling issue potential , like what Ultra users sometimes experience . Schaeffers also produces quality semi & full synthetics , which have been proven to be a premium world class snowmobile race oil . I have to check out my. Race oil guide that goes back to my Klotz Benol & R-50 caster oil race days lol.


I am sure they do but i don't recommend there oils for a lawn boy even though lawn boy engines spec a ashless oil of tcw3 quality.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I don’t really know for certain, other than it was designed for them.


Yeah run it in my 4-mix for 5 yrs . at 50:1 . Still required decarboning at valve lash adjustment intervals . I switched to Amsoil Sabre same ratio awesome results . I might try some Dominator & Interceptor , since its a power broom application , which is in winter hibernation lol


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> The castor based oils tested more in the middle of the pack due to the ring lands clogging up causing lack of compression.
> Dominator, Red Armor, and Honda HP2 we’re in the top 5. Saber was about #10. Interceptor wasn’t tested


Figures , we always decarbonize every teardown between racing weekends on the aircooled bikes & more on the liquid cooled snowmobiles due to their inherent cooler internal temps . Usually ran a one temp higher spark plug range , however never had a engine oil related failure .Dirty oil but bullet proof for anti galling racing protection . Thanks bud !


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah run it in my 4-mix for 5 yrs . at 50:1 . Still required decarboning at valve lash adjustment intervals . I switched to Amsoil Sabre same ratio awesome results . I might try some Dominator & Interceptor , since its a power broom application , which is in winter hibernation lol


I think you’ll be surprised. You’ve been lead to believe that Dominator is dirtier burning than Saber and that’s not the case from what I’ve seen. Even at 20:1 in a saw, Dominator burns clean. I’d use it at 50:1 with no worries


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I am sure they do but i don't recommend there oils for a lawn boy even though lawn boy engines spec a ashless oil of tcw3 quality.


Yeah , like I said previously do not have any hands on experience with Schaeffers products . Have had many Lawnboy C & D Series & a M-Series that I still currently run via Premix for the last 5 yrs Injector delete . Quality TCW-3 all their lives , go figure outboard motor oil " If in its not broken don't fix it " . P.S. pun intended !


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Here is what 958 hrs of run time looks like on a Efco DS 2400 that has ran on super tech air cooled mixed at 32:1 for almost three years i use 87 E0 compression is still close to 150 lbs


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I think you’ll be surprised. You’ve been lead to believe that Dominator is dirtier burning than Saber and that’s not the case from what I’ve seen. Even at 20:1 in a saw, Dominator burns clean. I’d use it at 50:1 with no worries


Yeah 50:1 is my ratio in conventional saws . However I usually go 44:1 in my Ported Prograde or Milling application units . I will take you up on the Dominator challenge brother . I have never said never , so a test is likely in order since I still have a few bottles of Dominator on the shelf for the Can-am ....I'll let you know @ 50:1 & 44:1 Cheers !


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I think you’ll be surprised. You’ve been lead to believe that Dominator is dirtier burning than Saber and that’s not the case from what I’ve seen. Even at 20:1 in a saw, Dominator burns clean. I’d use it at 50:1 with no worries


I plan on trying that interceptor this spring when my work starts back up. A quart of interceptor at rural king is 12.99 but a quart of saber or dominator at the local stealership is 32.99 here.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , like I said previously do not have any hands on experience with Schaeffers products . Have had many Lawnboy C & D Series & a M-Series that I still currently run via Premix for the last 5 yrs Injector delete . Quality TCW-3 all their lives. , go figure " If in its not broken don't fix it " . P.S. pun intended !


I got a C10 lawn boy engine in the shed i run it on 16:1 a good skeeter killer but runs the best and cuts well.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah 50:1 is my ratio in conventional saws . However I usually go 44:1 in my Ported Prograde or Milling application units . I will take you up on the Dominator challenge brother . I have never said never , so a test is likely in order since I still have a few bottles of Dominator on the shelf for the Can-am ....I'll let you know @ 50:1 & 44:1 Cheers !


4oz per gallon is easy for me to mix from the sight window in a quart jug, so 32:1 is what they all get


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I plan on trying that interceptor this spring when my work starts back up. A quart of interceptor at rural king is 12.99 but a quart of saber or dominator at the local stealership is 32.99 here.


I get my oil from either True Value hardware or the Yamaha dealer here in town. They’re about $12 per qt for dominator and saber


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

I got a 4 gallon case of the old formula echo red armor that i plan to use as well four 1 gallon bottles


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I get my oil from either True Value hardware or the Yamaha dealer here in town. They’re about $12 per qt for dominator and saber


local echo / husky dealer here charges $5 for a 2.6 ounce bottle of saber and 32.99 for a quart which i thought was highway robbery.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got a 4 gallon case of the old formula echo red armor that i plan to use as well four 1 gallon bottles


I’d use that stuff if I had any. Pretty pricey to buy nowadays. They used to put the little 6 packs on sale which made it considerably more affordable


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

My friend gave me a stihl fs55 that was running poor and was a little low on compression from sticky rings he ran ultra since new. I ran echo red armor mixed at 50:1 in it and after each tank it ran better and better.
I ran better than 5 tanks per day for 6 months through it and here it is as of now.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’d use that stuff if I had any. Pretty pricey to buy nowadays. They used to put the little 6 packs on sale which made it considerably more affordable


I bought it at a dealer close out sell $35 per gallon. I mostly use super tech oils because i use so much mix per week.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

@huskihl I think i will have to give the super tech syn a shot it only cost a little more than the normal stuff i use.


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got a 4 gallon case of the old formula echo red armor that i plan to use as well four 1 gallon bottles


MS362c shipped to me for port work. He runs 100ll and Red Armor at 40:1. It sat in the box for a couple weeks and this is how it looked when I removed the cylinder. I’ve never seen so much residual oil from another brand


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> @huskihl I think i will have to give the super tech syn a shot it only cost a little more than the normal stuff i use.


Their air cooled full synthetic is very good


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I bought it at a dealer close out sell $35 per gallon. I mostly use super tech oils because i use so much mix per week.


I get Amsoil Saber @ $10.39 qt. Dominator $10.49 & Interceptor @ $10.39 qt. Or $44.69 / $45.00 / $42.00 for 1 gallon jugs .


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> MS362c shipped to me for port work. He runs 100ll and Red Armor at 40:1. It sat in the box for a couple weeks and this is how it looked when I removed the cylinder. I’ve never seen so much residual oil from another brand
> 
> View attachment 954973
> View attachment 954974
> View attachment 954975


Yes you are right usually it is some here and there but my god that thing looks to be dipped in oily goodness. 
I know my echo dealer told me the Power Blend line of oil has been reformulated as well to help remove more deposits for the engine it is called Power Blend Gold instead of Power Blend X


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> I get Amsoil Saber @ $10.39 qt. Dominator $10.49 & Interceptor @ $10.39 qt. Or $44.69 / $45.00 / $42.00 for 1 gallon jugs .


$26.24 per gallon is what i pay for Super Tech air cooled it cost $1.64 per 8 ounce bottle.


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## StumpBustersLLC (Jan 9, 2022)

Casting a vote for Red Armor. Always had good luck with it in anything including saws.


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## StumpBustersLLC (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> MS362c shipped to me for port work. He runs 100ll and Red Armor at 40:1. It sat in the box for a couple weeks and this is how it looked when I removed the cylinder. I’ve never seen so much residual oil from another brand
> 
> View attachment 954973
> View attachment 954974
> View attachment 954975


I'm seeing this as a good thing. Oils are there to protect and this looks like it's doing the job.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> local echo / husky dealer here charges $5 for a 2.6 ounce bottle of saber and 32.99 for a quart which i thought was highway robbery.


Shoot that dealer 300 % mark up lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Here is what 958 hrs of run time looks like on a Efco DS 2400 that has ran on super tech air cooled mixed at 32:1 for almost three years i use 87 E0 compression is still close to 150 lbs
> View attachment 954966


Looks good . I had a Efco 156 saw 10 yrs back , sold it along with my Husky 460 homeowner saw to a neighbour . Still both running fine !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> MS362c shipped to me for port work. He runs 100ll and Red Armor at 40:1. It sat in the box for a couple weeks and this is how it looked when I removed the cylinder. I’ve never seen so much residual oil from another brand
> 
> View attachment 954973
> View attachment 954974
> View attachment 954975


What ratio he running ?


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Is ultra a ash less oil? i know it leaves a nasty deposits inside a engine and has a horrendous odor.


Yeah fully Ashless , for Stihl's 4-mix units ! As I said , I went Saber for the last 4 yrs since it was given to me , however will do the trial with Dominator & then Interceptor next spring and report back !


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## huskihl (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> What ratio he running ?


It’s there.
40:1 RA with 100LL


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah fully Ashless , for Stihl's 4-mix units ! As I said , I went Saber for the last 4 yrs since it was given to me , however will do the trial with Dominator & then Interceptor next spring and report back !


I imagine low ash oils with cause heavy deposits around the valves and seats.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It’s there.
> 40:1 RA with 100LL


100LL is some nice smelling stuff and great for long term storage.


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## jellyroll (Jan 9, 2022)

StumpBustersLLC said:


> I'm seeing this as a good thing. Oils are there to protect and this looks like it's doing the job.


Welcome to the forum  .


----------



## Casawfan (Jan 9, 2022)

Amsoil Saber 40 or 50:1


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I imagine low ash oils with cause heavy deposits around the valves and seats.


Exactly , that why mix ratio is & carb tuning to that oil ratio is very important . A lot of the new synthetics are designed for 50:1 accordingly . P.S. I ran it @ 70:1 on (Saber) for 3 tanks just to reduce the oily residue after the decarbonizing lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It’s there.
> 40:1 RA with 100LL


Hell yes , sorry , just heck looks like some break in oil smeared all over everything , that's a lot of residual oil !


----------



## StumpBustersLLC (Jan 9, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Welcome to the forum  .


Thank You !


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

Hermio said:


> Not if your engine is properly tuned.


Even if it's properly tuned,of which the vast majority are not.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> View attachment 954869
> Here’s my source. Again this was a torture test. But lots of us were shocked. No one should run 200:1.


Correct me if I am wrong but those tests where ran exactly once?.
An example of one has no statistical validity.
In addition we don't run saws at such ridiculous ratios so what does it prove?


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I’ve ported saws for 7-8 years now, hoping to have enough to do it full time this year. So I dig into about 150 saws per year. Here’s what I’ve learned. Folks who run Ultra at 50:1 have “relatively “ clean pistons and cylinders. But on the newer strato saws there is no excess oil anywhere. The bottom end bearings are dry. Even the crank journals are dry to the touch. This would indicate the need for more oil. If you run it at 32:1, the bottom end is still marginally lubricated, but carbon buildup is everywhere. This buildup shows evidence of flaking off also. I’ve seen this flaking cause smearing on the piston when a chunk gets caught at the top of the exhaust port. It builds carbon because it’s an fb rated oil. FC and FD rated oils have detergent in them and some will actually run cleaner with more oil in the mix. The difference in both the amount of carbon formed and residual oil left behind between Stihl Ultra and Red Armor is staggering.


Something to consider. Ultra is a ashless oil. Ashless doesn't refer to deposits it refers to the sulfated ash test, which is a measure of how much mettalic anti wear and detergent additives are present. All FD rated oils have some ash. You in fact need the mettalic additives associated with the test for air cooled variable throttle engines. Ashless technology doesn't function at all above 300 degree ring belt temps, which is why you see lots of deposits in engines ran on it that see temps above that number.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 9, 2022)

JRM said:


> My thoughts exactly. It's not very telling, especially not knowing the variables. What saws were used? Was it a true non bias test? How exact were the ratios? New or used engines? If used, how many hours on each engine? Was ALL the previous mix completely drained and ran out?
> Lots of questions for sure. Like you, I began using Stihl oil when I bought my new 460 many years ago. I figured based on the warranty it couldn't be a bad oil, the saw is now pushing 15 years on Stihl oil with no teardown. I've got a few newer saws with more hours, same results. But I am just a homeowner and only cut 12-15 cords a year plus clean up and the occasional favor for a friend or family member.


Forget all that. It's not useful because it has zero statistical validity.
And FWIW I questioned the guy on what methodology he used and he totally went nuts. I know understand that he has left that site and took his "data" with him. A real weirdo.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 9, 2022)

It doesn’t prove anything. I’d agree. But the length of time some of those units ran proves 200:1 with decent oil runs longer than straight gas would. In my opinion it shows some oil are better than others. 

I read all the tests for fun. I’m not saying these are the gospel.


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## LoneOak (Jan 9, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And last but not least. If you think E30 boosts your performance you are nuts. Unless lower HP, *compromised lubrication* and and increased fuel use is a boost in performance to you.




Here are 3 of my saws recently operated on a tree job. 



Does this look like "Compromised Lubrication" to anyone else?
Saw #1 MS 361 Bone Stock, ZERO modifications, about 5hrs (10-12 tanks)



Saw #2 MS 361 Modified, Ported, 460 carb, Muff Mod. About 50hrs. (tanks ?)



Saw #3 MS 660 Modified, Ported, 4yrs old about 250 hrs



So tell me again, how does E30 compromise lubrication?
Just another example of how bwalker is lying out his ASS!! Like a habitual liar, he just can't help himself.


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## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> It doesn’t prove anything. I’d agree. But the length of time some of those units ran proves 200:1 with decent oil runs longer than straight gas would. In my opinion it shows some oil are better than others.
> 
> I read all the tests for fun. I’m not saying these are the gospel.


Not really.
It only proves that some oils run longer at 200:1. You can't extrapolate those results to normal ratios.
Protection against seizure is not a real issue with modern oils. Cleanliness of the ring grooves is much more important. Once ring mobility is lost wear increases, blow by increases and sooner rather than latter compression is lost or seizure occurs.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Here are 3 of my saws recently operated on a tree job.
> View attachment 955085
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny how you call someone a liar when something doesn't fit your flawed and frankly moronic ideas.
Ethanols effects on breaking down lubrication are well documented. Lots of papers out there on the subject.
I supoose I will be called a liar for pointing out the energy density of Ethanol is less than gasoline as well?
That top piston doesn't look so great for such little time, neither does the middle one. The picture for the Chinese junk on the bottom is too poor to say.


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## Hermio (Jan 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> To be clear are you disputing the combustion of Ethanol doesn't for form aldahydes? Because it's a absolute fact that it indeed does.


It only does so if there is insufficient oxygen. I say this as a Chemical Engineer.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Not really.
> It only proves that some oils run longer at 200:1. You can't extrapolate those results to normal ratios.
> Protection against seizure is not a real issue with modern oils. Cleanliness of the ring grooves is much more important. Once ring mobility is lost wear increases, blow by increases and sooner rather than latter compression is lost or seizure occurs.


Not sure where you’re heading with this walker?
I’d agree there’s no reason to run 200:1. But the oils that lasted longer in my opinion impressed me. 
What oil do you recommend?


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 10, 2022)

I’m currently running raisman full synthetic. Had to open a saw up that was ran on it. 32:1 Pretty oil slick on everything. Not much carbon. I’d say I’m happy enough with that


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## SuperNaturalBird (Jan 10, 2022)

I recommend Redline Racing Oil fully synthetic. I have tried Stihl HP Ultra and many others. There’s a noticeable power gain over many other 2-stroke oils and it results in a smoother running engine.


----------



## cookies (Jan 10, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Here are 3 of my saws recently operated on a tree job.
> View attachment 955085
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like a time lapse of piston skirt damage, oil des not stop lean condition or debris wear. If your taking cylinders off to inspect after jobs you might try fully cleaning them and rinsing the crank case out before reinstalling to reduce the amount of spooge falling into the saw since it could be your source of skirt damage.


----------



## OM617YOTA (Jan 10, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Here are 3 of my saws recently operated on a tree job.
> View attachment 955085
> 
> 
> ...


That top piston looks terrible. Not trash, but seriously worn. Only 5 hours on it!?


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## jellyroll (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’m currently running raisman full synthetic. Had to open a saw up that was ran on it. 32:1 Pretty oil slick on everything. Not much carbon. I’d say I’m happy enough with that


How is the smell of the oil? I think 32:1 is best with easy mixing 6 ounces to 1.5 gallons on my can.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

Hermio said:


> It only does so if there is insufficient oxygen. I say this as a Chemical Engineer.


There are always time when that's the case. Especially in a two stroke.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’m currently running raisman full synthetic. Had to open a saw up that was ran on it. 32:1 Pretty oil slick on everything. Not much carbon. I’d say I’m happy enough with that





jakethesnake said:


> Not sure where you’re heading with this walker?
> I’d agree there’s no reason to run 200:1. But the oils that lasted longer in my opinion impressed me.
> What oil do you recommend?


Any FD certified oil will work fine.


----------



## woodfarmer (Jan 10, 2022)

My dad had a 625II he bought new, Canadian tire oil, jonsered oil, Walmart oil and anything else he bought on sale. The piston still looks brand new after what 30 years.
I run quicksilver marine 2 stroke semi synthetic, jonsered and stihl oil, 40:1 never had any issues.


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## BerkshirePaws (Jan 10, 2022)

I’ve seen a number of people recommending various marine two stroke oils. I thought marine oil was designed to run at lower temperatures than air cooled engines run and therefore not recommended.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 10, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> How is the smell of the oil? I think 32:1 is best with easy mixing 6 ounces to 1.5 gallons on my can.


Stinks like hell. Worse than most. It’s very blue so the gas is obviously mixed. It does have that overwhelming smell to it. Saw looked happy though


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## jakethesnake (Jan 10, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> My dad had a 625II he bought new, Canadian tire oil, jonsered oil, Walmart oil and anything else he bought on sale. The piston still looks brand new after what 30 years.
> I run quicksilver marine 2 stroke semi synthetic, jonsered and stihl oil, 40:1 never had any issues.


I ran boat oil and anything else I could find for years till I learned that was wrong. 
The saw I ran it all through still has machine marks on the piston. It’s done a lot of work. 

I don’t do that any more. The Schaefer’s people brag about I’d use. But only because tree monkey runs it and believes in it. I’ll just stick to air cooled fd unless a deal on the Schaefer’s popped into my lap.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 10, 2022)

Oh if it matters that saw is a husqvarna 55.


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## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Any FD certified oil will work fine.





jakethesnake said:


> I ran boat oil and anything else I could find for years till I learned that was wrong.
> The saw I ran it all through still has machine marks on the piston. It’s done a lot of work.
> 
> I don’t do that any more. The Schaefer’s people brag about I’d use. But only because tree monkey runs it and believes in it. I’ll just stick to air cooled fd unless a deal on the Schaefer’s popped into my lap.


Tree Monkeys reputation is without warts. With that said I would not run a marine oil in a chainsaw. Too many good air cooled oils available.


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## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

BerkshirePaws said:


> I’ve seen a number of people recommending various marine two stroke oils. I thought marine oil was designed to run at lower temperatures than air cooled engines run and therefore not recommended.


That's correct.


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## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

SuperNaturalBird said:


> I recommend Redline Racing Oil fully synthetic. I have tried Stihl HP Ultra and many others. There’s a noticeable power gain over many other 2-stroke oils and it results in a smoother running engine.


I ran redline two stroke racing oil back in the early 2000 in bikes and snowmobiles. That stuff has a nasty habit of corroding metal parts. Never will I use it again.
I've never noticed a noticed power gain between different oils.


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## jellyroll (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I ran boat oil and anything else I could find for years till I learned that was wrong.
> The saw I ran it all through still has machine marks on the piston. It’s done a lot of work.
> 
> I don’t do that any more. The Schaefer’s people brag about I’d use. But only because tree monkey runs it and believes in it. I’ll just stick to air cooled fd unless a deal on the Schaefer’s popped into my lap.


That schaeffer's is $6 per quart here i just run what ever cheap air cooled oil walmart has.


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## jellyroll (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Stinks like hell. Worse than most. It’s very blue so the gas is obviously mixed. It does have that overwhelming smell to it. Saw looked happy though


Ace hardware low ash oil in the quart bottle is good as well.


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## jellyroll (Jan 10, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Oh if it matters that saw is a husqvarna 55.


Walmart has quicksilver PWC oil in the quart for $9 it is JASO FD on the bottle.


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## LoneOak (Jan 10, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's funny how you call someone a liar when something doesn't fit your flawed and frankly moronic ideas.
> Ethanols effects on breaking down lubrication are well documented. Lots of papers out there on the subject.
> I supoose I will be called a liar for pointing out the energy density of Ethanol is less than gasoline as well?
> That top piston doesn't look so great for such little time, neither does the middle one. The picture for the Chinese junk on the bottom is too poor to say.



*It's funny how you call someone a liar when something doesn't fit your flawed and frankly moronic ideas.* 
I call you out as a liar because you are. You make statements of things you have zero experience on and present them as facts. It wasn't my Idea to put Ethanol in Gasoline. 
*Ethanols effects on breaking down lubrication are well documented. Lots of papers out there on the subject.* 
Then put it up! Lets see one. Because all I find is conjecture, and assumptions. Nothing close to a scientific study that examines lubrication in a pre-mixed system for a 2 cycle engine. My experience spans 4yrs using E30 in small gasoline engines, 2 and 4 stroke. In that 4yrs I have had 0 failures related to lubrication.
*I supoose I will be called a liar for pointing out the energy density of Ethanol is less than gasoline as well?*
Nope, easily measured. But again it's a mute point as ethanol is an oxygenate and as such it increases burn efficiency. https://www.thaiscience.info/journals/Article/JOSE/10889623.pdf
*That top piston doesn't look so great for such little time, neither does the middle one. The picture for the Chinese junk on the bottom is too poor to say.*
As expected you completely missed the point of that post, Point being, that there is plenty of residual oil after operation. Which, according to many of the posters in this thread, is the metric for gauging suitable lubrication. 
Again your "compromised Lubrication" statement is a lie.




bwalker said:


> And last but not least. If you think E30 boosts your performance you are nuts. Unless* lower HP,* compromised lubrication and and increased fuel use is a boost in performance to you.


And yet, here is another example of the compulsive liar you are.
A vid of my "Lower HP" chainsaw cutting Southern Yellow Longleaf Pine.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 10, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> *It's funny how you call someone a liar when something doesn't fit your flawed and frankly moronic ideas.*
> I call you out as a liar because you are. You make statements of things you have zero experience on and present them as facts. It wasn't my Idea to put Ethanol in Gasoline.
> *Ethanols effects on breaking down lubrication are well documented. Lots of papers out there on the subject.*
> Then put it up! Lets see one. Because all I find is conjecture, and assumptions. Nothing close to a scientific study that examines lubrication in a pre-mixed system for a 2 cycle engine. My experience spans 4yrs using E30 in small gasoline engines, 2 and 4 stroke. In that 4yrs I have had 0 failures related to lubrication.
> ...



If you have some evidence of living on my part let's see it.
It's not my job to do your research for you, but a quick Google search will provide you with multiple white papers on ethanols effects on lubrication.
You are the poster child for the Dunning–Kruger effect.
And you last paragraph is a perfect example of this. Ethanol in fact has a around a 30% lower BTU content than gasoline.
I know you think that video is impressive. It's not. Ponderosa Pine, of which I cut a bunch this year is super soft. My 361 blows through it ridiculously fast. And the stuff I am cutting is from a very arid climate with much closer growth rings.


----------



## cookies (Jan 11, 2022)

woodfarmer said:


> My dad had a 625II he bought new, Canadian tire oil, jonsered oil, Walmart oil and anything else he bought on sale. The piston still looks brand new after what 30 years.
> I run quicksilver marine 2 stroke semi synthetic, jonsered and stihl oil, 40:1 never had any issues.


stay away from the Tc-3 boat motor 2 cycle oil, its designed to not fully burn at temperatures below something like 450 degrees, its higher viscosity and can cause gummy build up in ports and screens and higher oil residue left behind in the crank case. I ran the quicksilver air cooled version stuff for years and it worked great but I noticed a big power pickup switching to vp, orange stihl and schaffers 9000 versus the quicksilver.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 11, 2022)

cookies said:


> stay away from the Tc-3 boat motor 2 cycle oil, its designed to not fully burn at temperatures below something like 450 degrees, its higher viscosity and can cause gummy build up in ports and screens and higher oil residue left behind in the crank case. I ran the quicksilver air cooled version stuff for years and it worked great but I noticed a big power pickup switching to vp, orange stihl and schaffers 9000 versus the quicksilver.


Schaeffer's 9000 is boat oil at best being ashless and rated tcw3


https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-td.pdf


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I know you think that video is impressive. It's not. Ponderosa Pine, of which I cut a bunch this year is super soft. My 361 blows through it ridiculously fast. And the stuff I am cutting is from a very arid climate with much closer growth rings.


Video! or it's just more lies!


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If you have some evidence of living on my part let's see it.
> It's not my job to do your research for you, but a quick Google search will provide you with multiple white papers on ethanols effects on lubrication.
> You are the poster child for the Dunning–Kruger effect.
> And you last paragraph is a perfect example of this. Ethanol in fact has a around a 30% lower BTU content than gasoline.
> I know you think that video is impressive. It's not. Ponderosa Pine, of which I cut a bunch this year is super soft. My 361 blows through it ridiculously fast. And the stuff I am cutting is from a very arid climate with much closer growth rings.


Your like a broken record, Continually repeating a lie doesn't make it truth!
*You are the poster child for the Dunning–Kruger effect.* <---- More "Narcissistic Deflection"

*And you last paragraph is a perfect example of this. Ethanol in fact has a around a 30% lower BTU content than gasoline.*
Not disputing energy content. And the point is still mute when mixed with gasoline. 
From the study in a previous post. 


> From the study, the following conclusions can be deduced:-





> 1. Ethanol blends and oxygenated additives in gasoline cause improvements in engine performance and reduce exhaust emissions. 2. Ethanol-blended gasoline with oxygenated additives leads to a significant reduction in exhaust emissions. As all engine speeds, the values of CO, CO2 and NOx were reduced. On the other hand, HC and O2 emissions were significantly increased. 3. The addition of 69.5% of ethanol-blended gasoline with oxygenated additives was achieved in the experiments without any problems during engine operation. However, without additives the performance was better by to 40 % beyond what was absorbed resulting in abnormal combustion, vibration and starting problems.


----------



## cookies (Jan 11, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Schaeffer's 9000 is boat oil at best being ashless and rated tcw3
> 
> 
> https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/248-9006-td.pdf


From their doc you posted, could not find any literature stating quicksilver to be jaso rated, the following sentence is from the schaffers tech doc 
Synthetic 2-Cycle Racing Oil meets and exceeds the NMMA TC-W3, JASO FC, JASO FD, ISO-L-EGC and ISO-L-EGD; API TC lubricity and pre-ignition performance.

I ran and still use the left over Qsilver to assemble saws (easy to see whats been lubed being silvery blue), never suffered a single saw failure or plug foul using it at 40-1 or even at 25-1 but it smokes like a tar kettle and made noticeably less power as well as clogged the flame arrestor screens every 15-25 tanks esp on the trimmers. I run schaffers in winter because its viscosity is lower making it pour easier/ settle faster during measuring meaning it should also flow better in a cold saw crankcase and as a bonus no screen soot buildup after 25+ tanks. The last thing noticed is the first 2-3 starting pulls are easier after the saw has been sitting a few days. Before I had to pull 2-3 times slowly before it would become easy enough to pull start without causing shoulder damage LOL.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 11, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Your like a broken record, Continually repeating a lie doesn't make it truth!
> *You are the poster child for the Dunning–Kruger effect.* <---- More "Narcissistic Deflection"
> 
> *And you last paragraph is a perfect example of this. Ethanol in fact has a around a 30% lower BTU content than gasoline.*
> ...


4 Cycle engines. Many factors over your head that your not considering.
Still waiting on all these lies...


----------



## bwalker (Jan 11, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Video! or it's just more lies.





LoneOak said:


> Video! or it's just more lies!


You need a video to prove Pondo is soft?


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 11, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Ponderosa Pine, of which I cut a bunch this year is super soft. *My 361 blows through it ridiculously fast*. And the stuff I am cutting is from a very arid climate with much closer growth rings.


Na, I wanna see a video of this! Lets see your 361 blow through 24" of (Yellow Pine)!

Oh....and by the way (Southern Yellow Long Leaf) is one of the hardest of the soft woods.


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 11, 2022)

Yellow pine is good building material. Used it quite a bit for that.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 12, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Yellow pine is good building material. Used it quite a bit for that.


Poplar is great as well and it is used more often since pine is not commonly grown here.


----------



## BerkshirePaws (Jan 12, 2022)

While ponderosa pine is considered a “yellow” pine I didn’t think it had much (anything) in common with southern yellow pine.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 12, 2022)

BerkshirePaws said:


> While ponderosa pine is considered a “yellow” pine I didn’t think it had much (anything) in common with southern yellow pine.


Over 10 species of yellow pine within North America . Majority are used within the wood manufacturing industry . They share common traits that make them suitable for structural to decorative purposes . Actually pine is the largest supply species for pressure treated products .


----------



## Karrl (Jan 12, 2022)

That’s pretty soft


----------



## willray (Jan 12, 2022)

Broken said:


> Over 10 species of yellow pine within North America . Majority are used within the wood manufacturing industry . They share common traits that make them suitable for structural to decorative purposes . Actually pine is the largest supply species for pressure treated products .











In Popular Culture







xkcd.com


----------



## OM617YOTA (Jan 12, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> A vid of my "Lower HP" chainsaw cutting Ponderosa Pine.



If my saw behaved that way, I'd be checking the tune. Does it 4 stroke out of the cut?


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 12, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> If my saw behaved that way, I'd be checking the tune. Does it 4 stroke out of the cut?


@ WoT no load, yes.
What behaviors are you detecting?


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 12, 2022)

kjorrrits said:


> View attachment 955723
> 
> That’s pretty soft


Well then! I stand corrected. 
There is a difference between Southern Yellow Longleaf Pine and Ponderosa Pine! 
Being from the Northwest it looks like Ponderosa to me.


----------



## OM617YOTA (Jan 12, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> @ WoT no load, yes.
> What behaviors are you detecting?


Maybe I tune mine fatter than it needs to be. The way yours rev'd without 4 stroking at the end of one of the cuts had me going whoa there. If my saw did that, I'd be checking tune.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 12, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Maybe I tune mine fatter than it needs to be. The way yours rev'd without 4 stroking at the end of one of the cuts had me going whoa there. If my saw did that, I'd be checking tune.


Ya, I did 2 test cuts prior to recording to check tune.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 12, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Maybe I tune mine fatter than it needs to be. The way yours rev'd without 4 stroking at the end of one of the cuts had me going whoa there. If my saw did that, I'd be checking tune.


I tune my stuff so it 4 strokes out of the cut and cleans up in the wood my string trimmer is tuned the same. 
I suppose that is why my stuff lasts so long even with all the hours.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 12, 2022)

Sounds about right for a stock 361 with less than aggressive chain . Making good chips , might be tuned a tad lean . If you were cutting BC Douglas fir it would be more impressive , lol. Nice saw !


----------



## McCulloch38 (Jan 13, 2022)

_I use opti 2, but red armor is good stuff_


----------



## Abbeville TSI (Jan 14, 2022)

Is the new Red Armor without the ester oil in it still good to go? Between RA and Schaeffer 9000 which would be better for Stihl and Echo saws in farm and ranch service?


----------



## bwalker (Jan 14, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I tune my stuff so it 4 strokes out of the cut and cleans up in the wood my string trimmer is tuned the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Abbeville TSI said:


> Is the new Red Armor without the ester oil in it still good to go? Between RA and Schaeffer 9000 which would be better for Stihl and Echo saws in farm and ranch service?


Do we actually known it doesn't have ester?


----------



## Abbeville TSI (Jan 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Do we actually known it doesn't have ester?


No, and I could be wrong. I read it on the internet, either here or on the other place, so I pulled up the RA Safety Data Sheet and have read it over several times and saw no reference to esters. 
Manufacturer/Supplier
Phillips 66 Spectrum Corporation

If I made a mistake, I'll own it. Perhaps bwalker would read the Red Armor SDS and set me straight.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Do we actually known it doesn't have ester?


I bet that Red Armor does have more Ester base % than PAO by the residue or film that it leaves behind. This film is a characteristic of Ester based synthetics . That also is why most FD rated ester based oils have the detergent / dispersent / antioxidizer packages . Most PAO based oils burn more readily at moderate to high temps . Actually , with the Proprietary Smoke & Mirrors that many companies utilize some use a combination of Ester & PAO based to control seal swell & other mentioned downsides along with the additive packages . Schaeffers does identify it base oil I believe , just don't recall since I have never used it , I bet the 9000 is a ester though ?


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## jellyroll (Jan 14, 2022)

Broken said:


> I bet that Red Armor does have more Ester base % than PAO by the residue or film that it leaves behind. This film is a characteristic of Ester based synthetics . That also is why most FD rated ester based oils have the detergent / dispersent / antioxidizer packages . Most PAO based oils burn more readily at moderate to high temps . Actually , with the Proprietary Smoke & Mirrors that many companies utilize some use a combination of Ester & PAO based to control seal swell & other mentioned downsides along with the additive packages . Schaeffers does identify it base oil I believe , just don't recall since I have never used it , I bet the 9000 is a ester though ?


Even RA mixed at 50:1 leaves a good film of oil on everything the Schaeffer's crap is leaves no oil film from my observances .


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## jellyroll (Jan 14, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Do we actually known it doesn't have ester?


Echo power blend gold under the Toxicological information on the SDS list these ingredients. It is blended by Citgo.
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic
Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light
Fatty acid amide

Echo red armor under the SDS blended by Phillips 66.
Polybutene
Hydrocarbons, C11-C14, n-alkanes, isoalkanes, cyclics, <2% aromatics
petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic
Phenol, (dimethylamino)methyl-, (polymer)
Solvent naphtha, petroleum, heavy aromatic


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## bwalker (Jan 15, 2022)

Abbeville TSI said:


> No, and I could be wrong. I read it on the internet, either here or on the other place, so I pulled up the RA Safety Data Sheet and have read it over several times and saw no reference to esters.
> Manufacturer/Supplier
> Phillips 66 Spectrum Corporation
> 
> If I made a mistake, I'll own it. Perhaps bwalker would read the Red Armor SDS and set me straight.


Esters often are not toxic so they don't show up on msds files.
I dont know if it has ester or not and it really doesnt matter.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 15, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Even RA mixed at 50:1 leaves a good film of oil on everything the Schaeffer's crap is leaves no oil film from my observances .


The 9000 ?


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## jellyroll (Jan 15, 2022)

Broken said:


> The 9000 ?


Yes the 9000 It leaves a black flakey coating on the sparkplugs as well.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 15, 2022)

Broken said:


> I bet that Red Armor does have more Ester base % than PAO by the residue or film that it leaves behind. This film is a characteristic of Ester based synthetics . That also is why most FD rated ester based oils have the detergent / dispersent / antioxidizer packages . Most PAO based oils burn more readily at moderate to high temps . Actually , with the Proprietary Smoke & Mirrors that many companies utilize some use a combination of Ester & PAO based to control seal swell & other mentioned downsides along with the additive packages . Schaeffers does identify it base oil I believe , just don't recall since I have never used it , I bet the 9000 is a ester though ?


I dont think so (regarding esters!). Whenever there are esters in 2stroke oil....there is "biodegradability" mentioned in text...


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## Huskybill (Jan 15, 2022)

I use Husqvarna Xp+, but having the carb adjusted to the ratio your using is more important than brand of oil.


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> I bet that Red Armor does have more Ester base % than PAO by the residue or film that it leaves behind. This film is a characteristic of Ester based synthetics . That also is why most FD rated ester based oils have the detergent / dispersent / antioxidizer packages . Most PAO based oils burn more readily at moderate to high temps . Actually , with the Proprietary Smoke & Mirrors that many companies utilize some use a combination of Ester & PAO based to control seal swell & other mentioned downsides along with the additive packages . Schaeffers does identify it base oil I believe , just don't recall since I have never used it , I bet the 9000 is a ester though ?





Broken said:


> I bet that Red Armor does have more Ester base % than PAO by the residue or film that it leaves behind. This film is a characteristic of Ester based synthetics . That also is why most FD rated ester based oils have the detergent / dispersent / antioxidizer packages . Most PAO based oils burn more readily at moderate to high temps . Actually , with the Proprietary Smoke & Mirrors that many companies utilize some use a combination of Ester & PAO based to control seal swell & other mentioned downsides along with the additive packages . Schaeffers does identify it base oil I believe , just don't recall since I have never used it , I bet the 9000 is a ester though ?


Actually you got that backwards. PAO's are harder to combust and when the do combust do so in a more dirty manner. And it's the reason PAO's are not often used in two cycle oils.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Actually you got that backwards. PAO's are harder to combust and when the do combust do so in a more dirty manner. And it's the reason PAO's are not often used in two cycle oils.


100 % correct I did , didn't I . lol. Ester based synthetic oils have a much higher solvency factor than the older 1st generation synthetic technology PAO base oils , sorry about that , the characteristics are still relevant accordingly .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes the 9000 It leaves a black flakey coating on the sparkplugs as well.


Sounds like the same issue a buddy had with his trail sled with Dominator . Caused all kinds of exhaust power valve plugging ( black flakey ) also . I won't be using any Schaeffers product to pricy & not available locally .


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> 100 % correct I did , didn't I . lol. Ester based synthetic oils have a much higher solvency factor than the older 1st generation synthetic technology PAO base oils , sorry about that , the characteristics are still relevant accordingly .


Actually the old synthetic two cycle oils where mostly di ester based.
The only 100% ester based oil that IMO was superb was Mobil MX2T/2R. It was a carboxyl ester, which was unique amongst two cycle oils when it came out. I would still place zero confidence in its ability to prevent corrosion.
Anymore the vast majority of the FD certified oils out there are PIB and highly refined mineral oil blends. This is a good approach as Yamaha proved over the years with 2R.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Actually the old synthetic two cycle oils where mostly di ester based.
> The only 100% ester based oil that IMO was superb was Mobil MX2T/2R. It was a carboxyl ester, which was unique amongst two cycle oils when it came out. I would still place zero confidence in its ability to prevent corrosion.
> Anymore the vast majority of the FD certified oils out there are PIB and highly refined mineral oil blends. This is a good approach as Yamaha proved over the years with 2R.


Yeah many of the group III oils were very good , just no additive package benefit . Not a biggy if your service your engines accordingly . I have used Yamalube , its been around forever in one form or another it has evolved to a very respected recreational vehicle oil that is often used also in competition usage . I have buddy that has 70 's vintage Dt-1 & Big Bear Scrambler Twin , Yamalube from day one .


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah many of the group III oils were very good , just no additive package benefit . Not a biggy if your service your engines accordingly . I have used Yamalube , its been around forever in one form or another it has evolved to a very respected recreational vehicle oil that is often used also in competition usage . I have buddy that has 70 's vintage Dt-1 & Big Bear Scrambler Twin , Yamalube from day one .


All modern two cycle oils have an additive package. Not so back in the day of Castrol R30 and the like, but that was 50 years ago.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> All modern two cycle oils have an additive package. Not so back in the day of Castrol R30 and the like, but that was 50 years ago.


Yeah , that's about the time I was referring to lmao . Remember the Lawnboy & TCW-3 & M-Series conversation brother !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> All modern two cycle oils have an additive package. Not so back in the day of Castrol R30 and the like, but that was 50 years ago.


More correctly , all Modern FD Jaso rated oils have additive packages !


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> More correctly , all Modern FD Jaso rated oils have additive packages !


And TCW3, FC, FB, TC, etc. Litteraly every two cycle oil for sale today has additives and its been that way for quit a few decades.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Sounds like the same issue a buddy had with his trail sled with Dominator . Caused all kinds of exhaust power valve plugging ( black flakey ) also . I won't be using any Schaeffers product to pricy & not available locally .


Castrol or motomaster should be fine for you.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , that's about the time I was referring to lmao . Remember the Lawnboy & TCW-3 & M-Series conversation brother !


Yes i just ordered 24 bottles of LB oil for the lawn boys. The new formulation burns the best and it is nice and clean.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And TCW3, FC, FB, TC, etc. Litteraly every two cycle oil for sale today has additives and its been that way for quit a few decades.


Yeah , I'am referring to newer low smoke / odour dispersent & detergency packages & anti oxidizer advanced packages . Not the basic low ash & viscosity modifier packages of the FB/ FC oils . Group III oils although extremely refined to the point of being "synthetic" still smoke & contribute to some carbon & residue . Anyhow that's my opinion , I truly believe much of the oil related issues described is a combination of poor fuel quality and improper tuning to the mix & intended use or performance ( recreational vs extreme service - racing) of the engine .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Castrol or motomaster should be fine for you.


Ran Castrol Super 2T- Injector in my Kawasaki Mach-III Triple in 1971 . Lots of smoke ! Never run any Motomaster product but as a FC rated oil it may be close to Shell 2T oil , which is a quality product .I am happy with my current Interceptor in my recreational Bike & Sled applications , tried & proven & clean !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes i just ordered 24 bottles of LB oil for the lawn boys. The new formulation burns the best and it is nice and clean.
> View attachment 956818


Wow , your good to go for a few yrs lol. Good oil for any OMC Product . I forget , what Series LB are you still mowing with ?


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , I'am referring to newer low smoke / odour dispersent & detergency packages & anti oxidizer advanced packages . Not the basic low ash & viscosity modifier packages of the FB/ FC oils . Group III oils although extremely refined to the point of being "synthetic" still smoke & contribute to some carbon & residue . Anyhow that's my opinion , I truly believe much of the oil related issues described is a combination of poor fuel quality and improper tuning to the mix & intended use or performance ( recreational vs extreme service - racing) of the engine .


Smoke and odor is reduced by substitution of PIB from bright stock. Helps smell as well, but much of the nasty smell from two cycle oils comes from the amine used in the ashless dispersent technology used in marine oils and Stihl Ultra.
Viscosity modifiers have never been used in two cycle oils.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes i just ordered 24 bottles of LB oil for the lawn boys. The new formulation burns the best and it is nice and clean.
> View attachment 956818


Just checked it out same Ashless composition probably with viscosity modifiers in the new Gen II that is now rated as "All Season" formula . The old formula @ 40:1 use to require muffler decarbonizing every 2-3 yrs , I decarbonize the head on my old C-Series twice & current M-Series every other yr . I may switch them to interceptor at a later date !


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Also two cycle oils only anti oxidant is zinc, it's either not used(ashless oils) or used very sparingly(low ash very rarely).


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Smoke and odor is reduced by substitution of PIB from bright stock. Helps smell as well, but much of the nasty smell from two cycle oils comes from the amine used in the ashless dispersent technology used in marine oils and Stihl Ultra.
> Viscosity modifiers have never been used in two cycle oils.


Ok , "Pour point depressents" ( aka ) reduce the viscosity factor to enable cold weather pouring which is the norm within numerous injector oils .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Also two cycle oils only anti oxidant is zinc, it's either not used(ashless oils) or used very sparingly(low ash very rarely).


Outboards or Marine grade oils are Ashless by design due to the low rpm & heat & have a dispersent additive which prevents corrosion (liquid cooled) Air cooled engines dependant on application can utilize Low Ash oil , for additional lubricity at leaner oil ratio's if the heat is capable of burning off any residual residue effectively .


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## cgeb (Jan 16, 2022)

Page 27 of the post and the fire still rages....


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Wow , your good to go for a few yrs lol. Good oil for any OMC Product . I forget , what Series LB are you still mowing with ?


7263 D600 engine and a 7229 F100 engine.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Just checked it out same Ashless composition probably with viscosity modifiers in the new Gen II that is now rated as "All Season" formula . The old formula @ 40:1 use to require muffler decarbonizing every 2-3 yrs , I decarbonize the head on my old C-Series twice & current M-Series every other yr . I may switch them to interceptor at a later date !


The lawn boys i have run clean on it and the exhaust ports stay clear but that might have something to do with the fuel i burn though.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Outboards or Marine grade oils are Ashless by design due to the low rpm & heat & have a dispersent additive which prevents corrosion (liquid cooled) Air cooled engines dependant on application can utilize Low Ash oil , for additional lubricity at leaner oil ratio's if the heat is capable of burning off any residual residue.


Skidoo engines are liquid cooled and require low ash FC,FD oils use of TCW3 oils with cause harm in those engines.


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Outboards or Marine grade oils are Ashless by design due to the low rpm & heat & have a dispersent additive which prevents corrosion (liquid cooled) Air cooled engines dependant on application can utilize Low Ash oil , for additional lubricity at leaner oil ratio's if the heat is capable of burning off any residual residue.


Yes, marine oils are ashless, but they also have a heavier base oil blend because they are under more load. This fact and the fact ashless dispersents don't work over 300 degrees is the reason they can be dirty in a air cooled engine or something like a MX bike, snowmobile etc.. the dispersent technology marine oils use have no inherent corrosion inhibiting ability, while low ash oils have some corrosion inhibiting ability by virtue of the buffering effect of the magnesium and calcium sufonates used as detergents.
Low ash doesn't increase lubricity, it increase detergency.


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Skidoo engines are liquid cooled and require low ash FC,FD oils use of TCW3 oils with cause harm in those engines.


Rotax motors and Tcw3 oils are bad news.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Rotax motors and Tcw3 oils are bad news.


I imagine though i only run TCW3 in my lawn boy or toro 2 cycle.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> 7263 D600 engine and a 7229 F100 engine.


Nice , enjoy the aroma !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, marine oils are ashless, but they also have a heavier base oil blend because they are under more load. This fact and the fact ashless dispersents don't work over 300 degrees is the reason they can be dirty in a air cooled engine or something like a MX bike, snowmobile etc.. the dispersent technology marine oils use have no inherent corrosion inhibiting ability, while low ash oils have some corrosion inhibiting ability by virtue of the buffering effect of the magnesium and calcium sufonates used as detergents.
> Low ash doesn't increase lubricity, it increase detergency.


My brother had an old Scott air cooled outboard , couldn't kill it , although you could hear it for miles !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Smoke and odor is reduced by substitution of PIB from bright stock. Helps smell as well, but much of the nasty smell from two cycle oils comes from the amine used in the ashless dispersent technology used in marine oils and Stihl Ultra.
> Viscosity modifiers have never been used in two cycle oils.


Used filming amine chemical addition within boiler feed water to protect boiler tubes & reduce oxidation & damage to boiler equipment , also enhanced the heat transfer coefficient , yeah foul smelling stuff . To much added to the system often caused carry over into the condensate return system & associated valves as gunk balls & slime !


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## Huskybill (Jan 16, 2022)

It also depends on what materials the cylinder is too. On the bikes super maxima is good for nickasil cylinder, maxima 927 is a synthetic castor blend for castiron sleeved cylinders. I would think some oils might not be good for everything.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

Actually Bill have run Klotz Tech. & Klotz-R , Benol in Nickel plated aluminum cylinders in snowmobiles no etching or flaking or pitting issues . The Benol is very similar to the 927 a few % more Castor . The Klotz-R is more like the 927 . Even in Iron-sleeved engines , cylinder wear / performance was good with both oil class's when mixed properly . The Super Maxima should perform accordingly . I know I heard rumours previously that ester oil could effect the wear life of Nickisil , but put that down to improper ring end gap or mix ratio deficiencies rather than oil issues . Please enlighten us !


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Huskybill said:


> It also depends on what materials the cylinder is too. On the bikes super maxima is good for nickasil cylinder, maxima 927 is a synthetic castor blend for castiron sleeved cylinders. I would think some oils might not be good for everything.


I've never bought that theory. And have ran various oils in 250 mx bikes with nicisil cylinders and various oils in cr500's with steel cylinders. Good oil is good oil.


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Actually Bill have run Klotz Tech. & Klotz-R , Benol in Nickel plated aluminum cylinders in snowmobiles no etching or flaking or pitting issues . The Benol is very similar to the 927 a few % more Castor . The Klotz-R is more like the 927 . Even in Iron-sleeved engines , cylinder wear / performance was good with both oil class's when mixed properly . The Super Maxima should perform accordingly . I know I heard rumours previously that ester oil could effect the wear life of Nickisil , but put that down to improper ring end gap or mix ratio deficiencies rather than oil issues . Please enlighten us !


Benol is straight castor, Super techniplate is 20% castor 80% ester, 927 is IIRC 60% caster and 40% poly glycol ester.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yep that's what I said , Benol is primarily straight caster , Super Tech. is a caster & syn blend , 927 is a caster & syn blend . The point of my comment was that neither oil composition would be the basic or contributing cause of potential engine cylinder design damage . Other things cause cylinder surface damage as previously advised . However was hoping Bill would enlighten us !


Bought some oil at the local dollar general store to try in the string trimmer this spring. 
It will probably smoke and stink a little It cost 1.69 for a 6.4 oz bottle and rated API TC.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Bought some oil at the local dollar general store to try in the string trimmer this spring.
> It will probably smoke and stink a little It cost 1.69 for a 6.4 oz bottle and rated API TC.
> View attachment 956872


The older TC API specification , adequate for most hand held air cooled units when mixed & tuned for application . Actually was a previous water cooled engine oil spec . Let us know how you like the bouquet ( ocean mackerel flavour ) lol.


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> The older TC API specification , adequate for most hand held air cooled units when mixed & tuned for application . Actually was a previous water cooled engine oil spec . Let us know how you like the bouquet ( ocean mackerel flavour ) lol.


I am sure it will be fine since i run 32:1 in everything mixed with regular 87 I imagine it won't cause any problems.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 16, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I am sure it will be fine since i run 32:1 in everything mixed with regular 87 I imagine it won't cause any problems.


Any oil with the proper ratio & tuning will suffice grenade effect , just keep an eye on your exhaust port & muffler , with trimmers that's where it all becomes apparent quite readily !


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## jellyroll (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> Any oil with the proper ratio & tuning will suffice grenade effect , just keep an eye on your exhaust port & muffler , with trimmers that's where it all becomes apparent quite readily !


I run my trimmer hard during the summer maintaining a cemetery and i can run any oil in my trimmer and it won't splooge or spit oil but if idle it for 5 minutes it will start to do it.


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## bwalker (Jan 16, 2022)

Broken said:


> The older TC API specification , adequate for most hand held air cooled units when mixed & tuned for application . Actually was a previous water cooled engine oil spec . Let us know how you like the bouquet ( ocean mackerel flavour ) lol.


TC was always designed for air cooled applications. TD was the API certified oil for liquid cooled marine engines.
TC oil will not have the amine stink that cheap marine oils have.
With that said TC is an absolute standard. In other words that oil has never been tested and you don't know what your getting. I'm betting it won't blow your motor up immediately, but if I was looking for a cheap oil I would use something like mystic or citgo air-cooled, which actually are certified and are very good for the price.


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## jellyroll (Jan 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> TC was always designed for air cooled applications. TD was the API certified oil for liquid cooled marine engines.
> TC oil will not have the amine stink that cheap marine oils have.
> With that said TC is an absolute standard. In other words that oil has never been tested and you don't know what your getting. I'm betting it won't blow your motor up immediately, but if I was looking for a cheap oil I would use something like mystic or citgo air-cooled, which actually are certified and are very good for the price.


Mystic and citgo oils are not available here. All i know is that it is blended and packaged by Smitty Supply Inc that produces super s and cam2 products.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> TC was always designed for air cooled applications. TD was the API certified oil for liquid cooled marine engines.





All About 2 Stroke Engine Oils





The Late Great Oil Debate


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## North by Northwest (Jan 17, 2022)

bwalker said:


> TC was always designed for air cooled applications. TD was the API certified oil for liquid cooled marine engines.
> TC oil will not have the amine stink that cheap marine oils have.
> With that said TC is an absolute standard. In other words that oil has never been tested and you don't know what your getting. I'm betting it won't blow your motor up immediately, but if I was looking for a cheap oil I would use something like mystic or citgo air-cooled, which actually are certified and are very good for the price.


TD is obsolete , actually TC is also in my opinion other than relative to my current Lawnboys just old Api. Specifications that have been superceded by much more revelant Jaso Spec's . Actually none of specified oils will cause catastrophic engine failures when used properly in application .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 17, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I run my trimmer hard during the summer maintaining a cemetery and i can run any oil in my trimmer and it won't splooge or spit oil but if idle it for 5 minutes it will start to do it.


You have its tune pretty well optimized . You could adjust the ratio or tune further but a little more if your running it hard is better long term . I run my units accordingly never lug an air cooled engine , any VW or Harley mechanic will show you the downside ! lol. Cheers brother !


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## bwalker (Jan 17, 2022)

Broken said:


> TD is obsolete , actually TC is also in my opinion other than relative to my current Lawnboys just old Api. Specifications that have been superceded by much more revelant Jaso Spec's . Actually none of specified oils will cause catastrophic engine failures when used properly in application .





Broken said:


> TD is obsolete , actually TC is also in my opinion other than relative to my current Lawnboys just old Api. Specifications that have been superceded by much more revelant Jaso Spec's . Actually none of specified oils will cause catastrophic engine failures when used properly in application .


All API standards are absolete


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## North by Northwest (Jan 17, 2022)

Yeah , thats why i originally stated older specification lmao .


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## Tomos770 (Jan 17, 2022)

Because more ash (in case of TC oil) gives more protection...?


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## bwalker (Jan 17, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Because more ash (in case of TC oil) gives more protection...?


Ash is a measure of detergency.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 17, 2022)

Ok... 

But that is how I understand why TC oils are/would be superior in comparison with TD oils.... 

Althoug its contraintiniutive that higher spec would be inferior?


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## bwalker (Jan 17, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Ok...
> 
> But that is how I understand why TC oils are/would be superior in comparison with TD oils....
> 
> Althoug its contraintiniutive that higher spec would be inferior?


Tc is air cooled, td is marine.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 17, 2022)

Its American (API) thing only.... 





API Two-Cycle Motor Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org





No such a statement under JASO or ISO standard.... 






JASO Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org










ISO Two-Cycle Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org







www.oilspecifications.org


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## Tomos770 (Jan 17, 2022)

Now I understand why 2stroke oils in EU can be labeled as.... 

API TC / ISO L-EGD... Tnx


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## bwalker (Jan 17, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Now I understand why 2stroke oils in EU can be labeled as....
> 
> API TC / ISO L-EGD... Tnx


TC has been obsolete for decades. Jaso and ISO are the only standards still active for air cooled oils. MMA for marine oils.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 17, 2022)

I thought TC-W3 was the marine rating? I haven't looked in years.


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## bwalker (Jan 17, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I thought TC-W3 was the marine rating? I haven't looked in years.


It is. It's a MMA or Marine Manufacturers Association standard.


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## Dangerous (Jan 17, 2022)

clemsonfor said:


> Before those I posted I had used we real quarts of the husky xp plus or whatever you could buy in black bottle with blue label from Lowe's. It's semi synthetic. But I had several well known guys that were and may still be here and also on another forum we all probably know tell me that stuff was terrible and coked up saws worse than anything they have used. I quit it after that. Don't want to deal with that even though I didn't think I had a problem with it up till that point .


I use OEM synthetic brand name tend to add more than the 40:1


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## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Ok...
> 
> But that is how I understand why TC oils are/would be superior in comparison with TD oils....
> 
> Althoug its contraintiniutive that higher spec would be inferior?


TD oils as previously advised were for marine oil applications ( outboard) that operate at much lower temperatures , there fore Ashless oil is required . Ash additives " mettalic " can cause deposit formation within low temp operating engines . Therefore TC low ash oils were designed for air cooled engine applications where the higher operating temperature could utilize the ash effectively without residue or carbon deposits becoming an issue . Both are as advised rudimentary & obsolete within today's more refined premium 2T oil specifications . If you want the best protection use Jaso FD certified oils . Otherwise use FB or FC with knowledge of proper mixing & tuning requirements according to your engine usage . Simple as that !


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## jellyroll (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> TD oils as previously advised were for marine oil applications ( outboard) that operate at much lower temperatures , there fore Ashless oil is required . Ash additives " mettalic " can cause deposit formation within low temp operating engines . Therefore TC low ash oils were designed for air cooled engine applications where the higher operating temperature could utilize the ash effectively without residue or carbon deposits becoming an issue . Both are as advised rudimentary & obsolete within today's more refined premium 2T oil specifications . If you want the best protection use Jaso FD certified oils . Otherwise use FB or FC with knowledge of proper mixing & tuning requirements according to your engine usage . Simple as that !


If api TC is obsolete then why is the spec still listed on bottles.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 18, 2022)

someone uses 2t shell oil?


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## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> someone uses 2t shell oil?


I have two botles of ultra on a, shelve...waiting to finish a botle of motul 800 and Ipone Samurai racing


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> TD oils as previously advised were for marine oil applications ( outboard) that operate at much lower temperatures , there fore Ashless oil is required . Ash additives " mettalic " can cause deposit formation within low temp operating engines . Therefore TC low ash oils were designed for air cooled engine applications where the higher operating temperature could utilize the ash effectively without residue or carbon deposits becoming an issue . Both are as advised rudimentary & obsolete within today's more refined premium 2T oil specifications . If you want the best protection use Jaso FD certified oils . Otherwise use FB or FC with knowledge of proper mixing & tuning requirements according to your engine usage . Simple as that !


Yes.....cca 1year ago oilspecifications.org stated 2stroke oil specs as... 

API TC = JASO FC + additional demands / ISO L-EGC = JASO FC + additional demands.... 

And the same was written for API TD

TCW3 was separate standard.....

Now they changed that as API TD = TCW3..... Funny! 

Thats why I was confused!


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> I have two botles of ultra on a, shelve...waiting to finish a botle of motul 800 and Ipone Samurai racing


are you happy with these 2 what do you use?what mix are you doing


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> are you happy with these 2 what do you use?what mix are you doing


They are definitely superb oils....BUT!

I am not a professional logger....more like occasional/seasonal user...so my saws an (s)trimmer dont get much use...and even when they do....I am not nearly using them on their limits...

So...for me....Motul 800 smokes too much @32:1...and leaves goo in mufflers...

Ipone....said it has pleasant strawberry scent....well....it smells more like burnt plastic  You are trimming for 5 minutes and you are already annoyed because of those burnt strawberries...

I am looking after Shell ultra....like his (on paper) low burning point (that at least in teory means clean exhaust)....

If you are not advanced/hard user....always try to focus on sythetic oils with low burning points!

Another example of good oil would be Motul 2t 710 (or Motul Scooter Power....I think that is the same oil under different label!)


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 18, 2022)

and how to identify oil with a low combustion temperature?


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

By looking at its PDS (product data sheet)


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> I have two botles of ultra on a, shelve...waiting to finish a botle of motul 800 and Ipone Samurai racing


Ultra was a quick fix to Stihl's 4- Mix engine oil delima . Not a great oil in numerous chain saw application's ! Ultra HP is a better overall product .


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> If api TC is obsolete then why is the spec still listed on bottles.


It's still is a legal certification for a rudimentary oil specification as listed . However it has been vastly superseded within the design perimeters of today's oils quality specifications within various applications . It's like comparing a Model T to a Ferrari within Oil Performance Standards ! Obsolete Defined : " Out of date , less developed , rudimentary ! " No longer used , replaced with something new ! " Pretty clear to me !


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ultra was a quick fix to Stihl's 4- Mix engine oil delima . Not a great oil in numerous chain saw application's ! Ultra HP is a better overall product .


Why is shell inferior for chainsaw use? Low cst of 7.x (almost sae20 oil)?

All I can read about Stihl Ultra is:

1)bad odour
2) leaves nasty residue in muffler and on piston crown....


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Why is shell inferior for chainsaw use? Low cst of 7.x (almost sae20 oil)?
> 
> All I can read about Stihl Ultra is:
> 
> ...


Its a bad choice for the exact reasons you have listed . It has also apparently given numerous individuals extreme headaches & eye & lung irritation during usage in chainsaws . It has caused engine damage in numerous chainsaw applications do to carbon fouling and overheating in recommended manufacturer oil ratio's . Like any oil , if mixed properly , in conjunction with proper carb tuning to application , satisfactory results are possible !


----------



## bwalker (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> TD oils as previously advised were for marine oil applications ( outboard) that operate at much lower temperatures , there fore Ashless oil is required . Ash additives " mettalic " can cause deposit formation within low temp operating engines . Therefore TC low ash oils were designed for air cooled engine applications where the higher operating temperature could utilize the ash effectively without residue or carbon deposits becoming an issue . Both are as advised rudimentary & obsolete within today's more refined premium 2T oil specifications . If you want the best protection use Jaso FD certified oils . Otherwise use FB or FC with knowledge of proper mixing & tuning requirements according to your engine usage . Simple as that !


What really requires marine engines and lawnboys to run ashless oil is the fact they run more or less constant throttle. This constant throttle operation causes mettalic ash build up on the head and piston, which grounds out spark plugs and can cause pre ignition.
It's for the same reason aviation engines use ashless oil.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 18, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> If api TC is obsolete then why is the spec still listed on bottles.


Marketing. I want to say it's been obsolete for over 30 years.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> They are definitely superb oils....BUT!
> 
> I am not a professional logger....more like occasional/seasonal user...so my saws an (s)trimmer dont get much use...and even when they do....I am not nearly using them on their limits...
> 
> ...


Low flash point doesn't mean the oil combustion easier and not by a long shot.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> Its a bad choice for the exact reasons you have listed . It has also apparently given numerous individuals extreme headaches & eye & lung irritation during usage in chainsaws . It has caused engine damage in numerous chainsaw applications do to carbon fouling and overheating in recommended manufacturer oil ratio's . Like any oil , if mixed properly , in conjunction with proper carb tuning to application , satisfactory results are possible !


He's talking about Shell Ultra, not Stihl Ultra.
Shell Ultra is probably a decent oil. Stihl Ultra is not.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What really requires marine engines and lawnboys to run ashless oil is the fact they run more or less constant throttle. This constant throttle operation causes mettalic ash build up on the head and piston, which grounds out spark plugs and can cause pre ignition.
> It's for the same reason aviation engines use ashless oil.


I agree , good further points of consideration within TD oils & lawnboy products Mr Walker !


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> He's talking about Shell Ultra, not Stihl Ultra.
> Shell Ultra is probably a decent oil. Stihl Ultra is not.


Actually I dont know exactly wether Broken described Stihl Ultra or Shell ultra in his text


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> He's talking about Shell Ultra, not Stihl Ultra.
> Shell Ultra is probably a decent oil. Stihl Ultra is not.


#581 he grouped Ultra with Motul 800 & spong @ 32:1 ...etc. Then again mentioned the foul smell & cyl. , head deposits re: Stihl Ultra , so I replied accordingly . As far as Shell 2T oil are very good products when used appropriately . My son still uses Shell 2T oils religiously , good pricing as you previously indicated with Mystik/ Citgo products !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Actually I dont know exactly wether Broke described Stihl Ultra or Shell ultra in his text


Stihl Ultra bad ! Shell Ultra good ! Tarzan said !


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 18, 2022)

So is she’ll good or nah. I use their motor oil almost exclusively


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> So is she’ll good or nah. I use their motor oil almost exclusively


GREAT !


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> Stihl Ultra bad ! Shell Ultra good ! Tarzan said !


Tnx!


----------



## CaseyForrest (Jan 18, 2022)

So whats the conclusion?


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 18, 2022)

Stihl ultra isn’t so good


----------



## bwalker (Jan 18, 2022)

Broken said:


> #581 he grouped Ultra with Motul 800 & spong @ 32:1 ...etc. Then again mentioned the foul smell & cyl. , head deposits re: Stihl Ultra , so I replied accordingly . As far as Shell 2T oil are very good products when used appropriately . My son still uses Shell 2T oils religiously , good pricing as you previously indicated with Mystik product !


I haven't seen Shell Ultra since I lived in Canada. It's just not available here, but has a good reputation in your neighborhood.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I haven't seen Shell Ultra since I lived in Canada. It's just not available here, but has a good reputation in your neighborhood.


Similar to Citco oil reputation you mentioned earlier b , all around serviceable product @ a fair price , I believe their Shell Advanced Ultra 2T is the oil my Son use in his sleds one is a 503 air cooled Rotax twin in a Skandic fishing sled . The other is a 800 Polaris liquid cooled twin RMK mountain sled with power valves . Nice and clean in both units 8 yrs running .


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> So whats the conclusion?


Buy a product that is designed for your application & mix & tune accordingly !


----------



## CaseyForrest (Jan 18, 2022)

I’m seeing lots of mentions for products that aren’t specifically designed for chainsaw applications.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 18, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> I’m seeing lots of mentions for products that aren’t specifically designed for chainsaw applications.


Yeah , probably because we got off the beaten path a little from one oil application to another . Bikes , Outboards , Snowmobiles , Ultralites , Trimmers , Lawnmowers etc . From air cooled to liquid cooled . Its not the oil but the composition of the base oil & other additives to achieve the final product that determines it effectiveness in various ratio's within numerous engine applications & usages. No one oil , can be used exclusively or effectively in one form in all applications . You must find a base point and fine tune from there to achieve optimal performance in regards to fuel to oil ratio's & fuel to air ratio's . That's why a lot of people go the Manufacturer's oil recommendation route . That's a start . Experience enables you to go a better route towards a better oil product for your individual requirements wether it be production felling , arborist takedowns to recreational bucking & limbing to serious commercial milling scenerio's etc .


----------



## huskihl (Jan 19, 2022)

Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….


Not


2021 MS261c


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 19, 2022)

Good oil too ;-)


----------



## CaseyForrest (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...



That’s not cool. It would be interesting to know the ratio of WOT to idle time this saw has seen. 

Also, how much fuel has been run through the saw.

Also, how many cold starts and has the saw been allowed to reach normal operating temp and stay there, or has it been a “start and stop” saw since new.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 19, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> That’s not cool. It would be interesting to know the ratio of WOT to idle time this saw has seen.
> 
> Also, how much fuel has been run through the saw.
> 
> Also, how many cold starts and has the saw been allowed to reach normal operating temp and stay there, or has it been a “start and stop” saw since new.


I would love to see Stihl ultra results @ 40 : 1 in a MS-660 Milling saw application !


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## Squareground3691 (Jan 19, 2022)

Goog combo


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## CJ1 (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...


That looks like a couple of outboard engines that were used for nothing but trolling for hours on end and never ran wide open. Wouldn't expect anything like that in a high rpm chainsaw! CJ


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 19, 2022)

Are synthetic ester oils good?


----------



## Squareground3691 (Jan 19, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> Are synthetic ester oils good?


Been used in air cooled 2stroke engines for decades and Hot Saws 101 approved


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 19, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> Are synthetic ester oils good?


Another one good and cheap (at least in my area) option 8eur/L






MOTO 2 TECH | Corporate Website ELF - Anglais







catalog.elf.com


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## McCulloch38 (Jan 19, 2022)

I got no clue, I ljust like how my stuff runs on it, my stuff likes this and Wawa non ethanol more than the Stihl motomix,


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 19, 2022)

we do not have it so far ;-) Europe I suspect is one market in this regard


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## Squareground3691 (Jan 19, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> we do not have it so far ;-) Europe I suspect is one market in this regard


MOTUL is a French Company


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## jellyroll (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...


Christ sakes that is awful i can run super tech outboard from walmart in my lawn boys and it looks really nice compared to that.


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## jellyroll (Jan 19, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , probably because we got off the beaten path a little from one oil application to another . Bikes , Outboards , Snowmobiles , Ultralites , Trimmers , Lawnmowers etc . From air cooled to liquid cooled . Its not the oil but the composition of the base oil & other additives to achieve the final product that determines it effectiveness in various ratio's within numerous engine applications & usages. No one oil , can be used exclusively or effectively in one form in all applications . You must find a base point and fine tune from there to achieve optimal performance in regards to fuel to oil ratio's & fuel to air ratio's . That's why a lot of people go the Manufacturer's oil recommendation route . That's a start . Experience enables you to go a better route towards a better oil product for your individual requirements wether it be production felling , arborist takedowns to recreational bucking & limbing to serious commercial milling scenerio's etc .


I got two separate cans of 32:1 at home one with ash less for the mower and the other low ash for the trimmer and keep them marked accordingly


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 19, 2022)

Here is one of my lawn boys a C12 engine from 1957 has a 3 ring piston and uses no roller bearings only bronze bushings. Running 16:1 Pennzoil outboard.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 19, 2022)

why this engine is sideways screwed to the tow truck?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 19, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got two separate cans of 32:1 at home one with ash less for the mower and the other low ash for the trimmer and keep them marked accordingly


Good choice , mistakes occur easily !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 19, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Here is one of my lawn boys a C12 engine from 1957 has a 3 ring piston and uses no roller bearings only bronze bushings. Running 16:1 Pennzoil outboard.



Good cutting ole girl . Yeah the Shell @ 16:1 will protect those Babbitt bearings . Have you inspected the muffler recently for any build up ?


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## bwalker (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...


Which she'll oil was that? To me it looks like boat oil was ran in it.


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## huskihl (Jan 19, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Which she'll oil was that? To me it looks like boat oil was ran in it.


Not Shell.
Stihl Ultra, your favorite


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## bwalker (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Not Shell.
> Stihl Ultra, your favorite


OK, that doesn't supprise me at all.


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## Brufab (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> MS362c shipped to me for port work. He runs 100ll and Red Armor at 40:1. It sat in the box for a couple weeks and this is how it looked when I removed the cylinder. I’ve never seen so much residual oil from another brand
> 
> View attachment 954973
> View attachment 954974
> View attachment 954975


So the red armor leaves a red residue? That's all I run in my echos. While at a echo event at my dealer I overheard a rep saying they use this for warranty work/verification or something along those lines. Also does anyone know who makes the briggs and stratton brand 2 stroke mix. I have been using it in my old 16:1 saws @32:1. Thanks guys.


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## Brufab (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...


Looks like 2 table spoons of metamucil per gal is a required when using stihl ultra oil.


----------



## huskihl (Jan 19, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Looks like 2 table spoons of metamucil per gal is a required when using stihl ultra oil.


It is what it is.


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## Brufab (Jan 19, 2022)

huskihl said:


> It is what it is.


 I just know what metamucil does for my 'build up'


----------



## KASH (Jan 19, 2022)

Jelly roll nice C12 the deck looks like it is from the 70s my 1958 is on its third deck the deck is a 1970 18 inch the other decks split over time clearing brush and many rocks on bush land.Great slip clutches on LBs. I dont know how many LBs I have but its lots all mixed the same 25 to 1 what ever oil is handy if they carbon up you arent working her hard enough.I have a 1953 1/3/4 hp rope start it needs rings comp is low but still runs good
I do not know if you still can but 10 years ago my bil down loaded the repair dealer issued manuals from the Toro site there is a lot of info.
Kash


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 20, 2022)

I also have a solo minor sprayer with 50 years and the prospect of another 20


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 20, 2022)

I had to google what metamucil is ;-)


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## Tomos770 (Jan 20, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> I had to google what metamucil is ;-)


I "like" the approach!

Dont exercise....or.....dont spend money on a gym....spend it instead on nutrition supplements and you will be healthier then ever


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 20, 2022)

The exercises do not hurt unless someone starts them in the afternoon


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## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

Broken said:


> Good cutting ole girl . Yeah the Shell @ 16:1 will protect those Babbitt bearings . Have you inspected the muffler recently for any build up ?


Muffler is clean as are the ports the engine speed is around 3000 rpms and makes close to 2 hp. 16:1 can get pricey depending on the brand.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> why this engine is sideways screwed to the tow truck?


The deck is made for a newer model engine instead of the older model engine. I had to drill the deck in one spot the allow the engine to fit the newer deck.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 20, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Muffler is clean as are the ports the engine speed is around 3000 rpms and makes close to 2 hp. 16:1 can get pricey depending on the brand.


Awesome !


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

KASH said:


> Jelly roll nice C12 the deck looks like it is from the 70s my 1958 is on its third deck the deck is a 1970 18 inch the other decks split over time clearing brush and many rocks on bush land.Great slip clutches on LBs. I dont know how many LBs I have but its lots all mixed the same 25 to 1 what ever oil is handy if they carbon up you arent working her hard enough.I have a 1953 1/3/4 hp rope start it needs rings comp is low but still runs good
> I do not know if you still can but 10 years ago my bil down loaded the repair dealer issued manuals from the Toro site there is a lot of info.
> Kash


I got a oddball toro recycler that uses a lawn boy V series engine i replaced the plastic carb with a adjustable walbro LMR and it woke it up but has a habit of drinking fuel. 
i run 32:1 pennzoil outboard in it.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

Broken said:


> Awesome !


Here is the toro with the lawn boy V series 4.5 hp.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

Brufab said:


> So the red armor leaves a red residue? That's all I run in my echos. While at a echo event at my dealer I overheard a rep saying they use this for warranty work/verification or something along those lines. Also does anyone know who makes the briggs and stratton brand 2 stroke mix. I have been using it in my old 16:1 saws @32:1. Thanks guys.


According to the SDS the current blender for Briggs ash less oil is OLYMPIC *OIL*, LTD. 5000 W. 41st St. Cicero, IL 60804


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

Yea I checked there website out, unfortunately not much info. I imagine the B&S oil is someone else's oil with there name on it.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 20, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Yea I checked there website out, unfortunately not much info. I imagine the B&S oil is someone else's oil with there name on it.


Yes, and in all likelihood the manufacturer of the oil is not Olympic. Probably just a packaging company.


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

I read thru all 32 pages of the thread yesterday. Alot of the technical info was over my head. But quite informative to say the least. So the ashless oil doesn't smoke? Or is it very minimal? I don't want to burn up my old saws because tear downs and parts are a real pain. I am mixing synthetic oil at 32:1 in old 1960s 16:1 era saws as recommended by guys in other saw threads here. When idling no smoke then alil smoke when throttled up then no smoke when I'm wot. Is that normal. And I have yet to figure out the 4 stroking out of the cut. I'm just a hobby logger and firewood guy. Newer echos and 1960s remingtons. Thanks guys for an interesting and informative thread. I guess I did one thing right by running red armor as it has been suggested in the thread that it's towards the top in quality.


----------



## CJ1 (Jan 20, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Not Shell.
> Stihl Ultra, your favorite


hey Kevin, when you open up that red saw, take a couple of pics of the topend, I would be curious to what it looks like. CJ


----------



## Tomos770 (Jan 20, 2022)

Brufab said:


> I read thru all 32 pages of the thread yesterday. Alot of the technical info was over my head. But quite informative to say the least. So the ashless oil doesn't smoke? Or is it very minimal? I don't want to burn up my old saws because tear downs and parts are a real pain.


Dont use ashless oil in your saws (e.i. TCW 3 oil)..... You need low ash formulated oil (e.i. API TC JASO FC JASO FD....) 

Regarding 4stroking....search content on YouTube!


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

So this was not a good thing to buy for my saws then? I was mixing 1 oz per 1 quart ethanol free gas. Thanks fellas.


----------



## huskihl (Jan 20, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> hey Kevin, when you open up that red saw, take a couple of pics of the topend, I would be curious to what it looks like. CJ


I took the muffler off and it was ok inside. Nice and clean.
It’s ready, btw. Fuel lines were shot


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 20, 2022)

Like cuttin grass jelly? @jellyroll


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

Looks like I will be running 4 oz to 1 gal red armor in my old 16:1 saws from now on after reading all the posts in this thread.


----------



## scor440tk (Jan 20, 2022)

SawTrash said:


> Husky LS+ 50:1 Wouldn't have a clue whether it's better or worse as a lubricant but by trial and error found it makes my 2 stroke motors' exhaust smell least objectionable.


Switched to this in my Homelites not disappointed at all and won’t break the bank for me.


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 20, 2022)

I do not see this oil echo here in europe


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

I wonder if you can buy it though the mail? I wasn't aware it was as good as guys say it is. My echo dealer recommended I run it in my saws when I purchased a few a couple years ago. After @huskihl posted pics now I see why the dealer said to run it.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 20, 2022)

Brufab said:


> I read thru all 32 pages of the thread yesterday. Alot of the technical info was over my head. But quite informative to say the least. So the ashless oil doesn't smoke? Or is it very minimal? I don't want to burn up my old saws because tear downs and parts are a real pain. I am mixing synthetic oil at 32:1 in old 1960s 16:1 era saws as recommended by guys in other saw threads here. When idling no smoke then alil smoke when throttled up then no smoke when I'm wot. Is that normal. And I have yet to figure out the 4 stroking out of the cut. I'm just a hobby logger and firewood guy. Newer echos and 1960s remingtons. Thanks guys for an interesting and informative thread. I guess I did one thing right by running red armor as it has been suggested in the thread that it's towards the top in quality.


Ash levels refer to the sulfated ash bench test. It measures how much mettalic compounds are present and Is indicative of the additive package type used. Has nothing to do with smoke.


----------



## Brufab (Jan 20, 2022)

Thanks I noticed awhile back when I switched to synthetic oil mix the blue smoke basically disappeared. Alot of this oil technology is kinda over my head.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 20, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Thanks I noticed awhile back when I switched to synthetic oil mix the blue smoke basically disappeared. Alot of this oil technology is kinda over my head.


I don't know much about old saws, but before I decided on a oil ratio for one I would want to know what type of bearings they have. Some of the old engines used things like babbitt and bronze in their bearings and really need alot more oil. Just something to think about.


----------



## KASH (Jan 20, 2022)

I was given a Toro very similar to the one shown got it running but probably I will never use it because it is self propelled.It is well built except for the cheapo plastic parts LB used.
Give me a brick top D thats a good mower.
Kash


----------



## bwalker (Jan 20, 2022)

KASH said:


> I was given a Toro very similar to the one shown got it running but probably I will never use it because it is self propelled.It is well built except for the cheapo plastic parts LB used.
> Give me a brick top D thats a good mower.
> Kash


I started my mowing career with a early 70's era Lawnboy and used several consecutively newer models over the years. The last I had was a last year model Duraforce. They steadily went down in quality. The Duraforce was an absolute piece of crap compared to the old ones. After my last Duraforce ate a read and several short blocks previous I trashed it and went to a Honda.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

KASH said:


> I was given a Toro very similar to the one shown got it running but probably I will never use it because it is self propelled.It is well built except for the cheapo plastic parts LB used.
> Give me a brick top D thats a good mower.
> Kash


If i was closer i would be glad to take it off your hands so i could put it to use in spring.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 20, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I started my mowing career with a early 70's era Lawn boy and used several consecutively newer models over the years. The last I had was a last year model Dura force. They steadily went down in quality. The Dura force was an absolute piece of crap compared to the old ones. After my last Dura force ate a read and several short blocks previous I trashed it and went to a Honda.


The Dura force was plagued by weak connecting rods and the bearings would fail on 50:1 mixes.


----------



## KASH (Jan 21, 2022)

Plus the famous quarrentied too fail coils.
Kash


----------



## bwalker (Jan 21, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> The Dura force was plagued by weak connecting rods and the bearings would fail on 50:1 mixes.


They didn't last even at 32:1 if the rpm was even a small amount above book max and many of them where from the factory.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 21, 2022)

KASH said:


> Plus the famous quarrentied too fail coils.
> Kash


Coils where absolutely terrible as well. I bought one every spring and more often then not would replace it at some point during the season.


----------



## CJ1 (Jan 21, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I took the muffler off and it was ok inside. Nice and clean.
> It’s ready, btw. Fuel lines were shot


Ok, cool. just hoping for some pics of the topend because of what some believe that saws cant be run on oil that is designed for water cooled engines. That has not been my experience over the years! CJ


----------



## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 21, 2022)

You can, but that one time the saw gets super hot one summer, a water cooled oil can break down and cause some damage.

I run Amsoil Saber in my air-cooled paramotor - I've seen cylinder head temps measured at the base of the spark plug reach 400° during climb out on a 90°+ day. I'm full throttle for 2 minutes straight or longer to gain an altitude I'm comfortable with (more altitude = more options if the engine decides to crap out). Hotter days = a slower climb rate, so I'm on the throttle longer. I'd wager a water cooled oil would've given up 100° earlier in that climb.


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## jellyroll (Jan 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> They didn't last even at 32:1 if the rpm was even a small amount above book max and many of them where from the factory.


That is why i prefer the V series and not the E series ( duraforce ).


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## jellyroll (Jan 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Coils where absolutely terrible as well. I bought one every spring and more often then not would replace it at some point during the season.


Knock on wood my toro with the v series has the original coil.


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## bwalker (Jan 21, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> Ok, cool. just hoping for some pics of the topend because of what some believe that saws cant be run on oil that is designed for water cooled engines. That has not been my experience over the years! CJ


You might be on to something that the saw oem's never thought of...not!


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## North by Northwest (Jan 21, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Looks like I will be running 4 oz to 1 gal red armor in my old 16:1 saws from now on after reading all the posts in this thread.


Or Dominator , Bill will let you know his optimal ratio . He has had very good success with it . I have yet to do a trial with it within saws only Bikes & Snowmobiles.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 21, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Thanks I noticed awhile back when I switched to synthetic oil mix the blue smoke basically disappeared. Alot of this oil technology is kinda over my head.


You'll get there grasshopper !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 21, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I don't know much about old saws, but before I decided on a oil ratio for one I would want to know what type of bearings they have. Some of the old engines used things like babbitt and bronze in their bearings and really need alot more oil. Just something to think about.


Mid 60 ' s to mid 70's your good to go either roller caged Torrington ball bearings or needle bearings earlier than that sintered babbitt or bronze bearing were in vogue !


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## jellyroll (Jan 21, 2022)

Broken said:


> You'll get there grasshopper !


Cut some wood today and tried that cheap api tc oil i got from the discount store. A little smoke on start up but not much smell or hardly any smoke after warm up in the echo i cut a truck load and it ran fine after two tanks i pulled the sparkplug and the color looked dark brown.


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## CJ1 (Jan 21, 2022)

Broken said:


> Or Dominator , Bill will let you know his optimal ratio . He has had very good su esa with it . I have yet to do a trial with it within saws only Bikes & Snowmobiles.


Been running dominator for many years in all my 2 strokes both air and water cooled with excellent results. Cj


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 21, 2022)

Been running Dominator in this since I fully restored it in '10. I hammer on it, too, whenever I get out on it, and it never misses a beat every season. 7k hard miles, and the compression feels the same as it did the day I first started it. 

I'd run Saber, but it's too thick for the oil injection pump, IMO, and it would be mixed far too heavy. At idle I estimated it to be 50:1. At full throttle it's probably 10:1, lol. When she's cold, she'll fog the whole neighborhood out.  Warm, minimal smoke.

You can see the red Dominator in the clear injection lines.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 22, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Been running Dominator in this since I fully restored it in '10. I hammer on it, too, whenever I get out on it, and it never misses a beat every season. 7k hard miles, and the compression feels the same as it did the day I first started it.
> 
> I'd run Saber, but it's too thick for the oil injection pump, IMO, and it would be mixed far too heavy. At idle I estimated it to be 50:1. At full throttle it's probably 10:1, lol. When she's cold, she'll fog the whole neighborhood out.  Warm, minimal smoke.
> 
> ...


I'am on to Interceptor currently in my Polaris 700 SKS . Intend the same with my Can-Am 370 which has been on Dominator for 8 yrs @ 50:1 . All my hand held air cooled run Sabre including my saws @ 50:1 for occasional used recreational units to 44:1 on all pro grade work saws ! P.S. nice RD , I had a 1970 RD-350 ran it on Bel-Ray or Yamalube kept it for 3 yrs until I moved up to the venerable Kawasaki Triples , H1 & H2 Series in 1972 & 73 !


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 22, 2022)

The Widowmaker! That H2 was INSANE. What a missile! Always wanted one. I had a buddy way back that had an H1 - that was no slouch either. What a great sound - could hear him coming a mile out!

Wow, that's a pretty heavy mix for Saber. I run my paramotor at 66:1, which is pretty heavy for this oil. I run all my handheld equipment at 100:1, and it works great. Since we have no ethanol free fuel available at any pumps in MA, the lack of oil allows for a richer fuel/air mix, which is helpful on EPA-limited and non-adjustable carburetors. Lets those types of equipment run much stronger.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 22, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> The Widowmaker! That H2 was INSANE. What a missile! Always wanted one. I had a buddy way back that had an H1 - that was no slouch either. What a great sound - could hear him coming a mile out!
> 
> Wow, that's a pretty heavy mix for Saber. I run my paramotor at 66:1, which is pretty heavy for this oil. I run all my handheld equipment at 100:1, and it works great. Since we have no ethanol free fuel available at any pumps in MA, the lack of oil allows for a richer fuel/air mix, which is helpful on EPA-limited and non-adjustable carburetors. Lets those types of equipment run much stronger.


Yeah , loved my 2T triples back in the day . My. 1971 H1 "Blue streak" was scary fast . My 1972 H1 Orange "Hell fire" was a much more refined ride however no slouch in the quarter mile either . My later H2 750 was awesome for reliability , but mind wrenching performance was just a flick of the wrist away , thank god Ralph Nader was preoccupied with the corvair , he would of had a field day with decommissioning Kawaski's fire breathing triples ! P.S. Yeah , Saber is recommended no richer than 50:1 up to 100:1 however I have trialed it at 40 :1 on high compression Commercial saw usage with minimum residue issues . At 44:1 within my pro grade saws & applications its squeaky clean , with a little puddling in the crankcase after 100 hrs run time .


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 22, 2022)

So these, and a bottle of Yamalube thats in the garage....




Heavy firewood cutter that normally runs 40:1, but not opposed to bumping up closer to 50. Saws are Stihl 261, 362, 400, 500 and Husky 550, 562 and 572.

Which one burns cleaner using rec fuel?


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## jellyroll (Jan 22, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> So these, and a bottle of Yamalube thats in the garage....
> 
> View attachment 958483
> 
> ...


Not overly impressed with the Lucas it leaves no oil film behind but burns ok i have not tried the others. Have had great success with the master pro power sports sea and snow oil at oreilly auto parts it JASO FC rated and burns clean with little smoke and does leave behind a film.

I run 87 E0 since that is the only E0 available but i imagine the Red line would burn the clean being a ester but i don't know.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 22, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> So these, and a bottle of Yamalube thats in the garage....
> 
> View attachment 958483
> 
> ...


Yeah the lucas semi syn is fc , their full syn is fd rated . Royal purple is an ok full syn. in auto usage . Never used their 2t oils ? But at $30 a quart i will stick with Amsoil @ $12 lol.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 22, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , loved my 2T triples back in the day . My. 1971 H1 "Blue streak" was scary fast . My 1972 H1 Orange "Hell fire" was a much more refined ride however no slouch in the quarter mile either . My later H2 750 was awesome for reliability , but mind wrenching performance was just a flick of the wrist away , thank god Ralph Nader was preoccupied with the corvair , he would of had a field day with decommissioning Kawaski's fire breathing triples ! P.S. Yeah , Saber is recommended no richer than 50:1 up to 100:1 however I have trialed it at 40 :1 on high compression Commercial saw usage with minimum residue issues . At 44:1 within my pro grade saws & applications its squeaky clean , with a little pudding in the crankcase after 100 hrs run time .


Good to know Saber can be run that heavy. Goes to show how good an oil it really is. I figured it would coke up like the cheaper oils at heavy doses.


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## bwalker (Jan 22, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah the lucas semi syn is fc , their full syn is fd rated . Royal purple is an ok full syn. in auto usage . Never used their 2t oils ? But at $30 a quart i will stick with Amsoil @ $12 lol.


Lucas isn't certified and from the expiereance of others who have provided photo evidence it's pure garbage.
The Royal Puple is a marine oil.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 22, 2022)

I put a photo or 3 up on the Lucas. It’s not good


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## jakethesnake (Jan 22, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> You can, but that one time the saw gets super hot one summer, a water cooled oil can break down and cause some damage.
> 
> I run Amsoil Saber in my air-cooled paramotor - I've seen cylinder head temps measured at the base of the spark plug reach 400° during climb out on a 90°+ day. I'm full throttle for 2 minutes straight or longer to gain an altitude I'm comfortable with (more altitude = more options if the engine decides to crap out). Hotter days = a slower climb rate, so I'm on the throttle longer. I'd wager a water cooled oil would've given up 100° earlier in that climb.
> 
> View attachment 958150


If you’re riding that death machine you sir are insane


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 22, 2022)

So then of the 4, Yamalube and Redline?


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## bwalker (Jan 22, 2022)

CaseyForrest said:


> So then of the 4, Yamalube and Redline?


Yamalube is good stuff.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 22, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I put a photo or 3 up on the Lucas. It’s not good


Have used it in Liquid Cooled snowmobiles , full syn it was adequate , a little carbon on the power valves nothing to serious the semi synthetic same performance in Air Cooled saws , just adequate . But then at its price point what do you expect !


jakethesnake said:


> I put a photo or 3 up on the Lucas. It’s not good


Its adequate if you know how to tune for it !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 22, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yamalube is good stuff.


Yamalube , I have had good service with in numerous applications . The Red line only in a few trimmer / blower applications , although in this forum numerous people have endorsed it . I have no bad experiences to relate against Red line other not readily available locally up North here .


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## bwalker (Jan 22, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yamalube , I have had good service with in numerous applications . The Red line only in a few trimmer / blower applications , although in this forum numerous people have endorsed it . I have no bad experiences to relate against Red line other not readily available locally up North here .


Redline Racing Oil is garbage. No expiereance with all sport.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 22, 2022)

Broken said:


> Have used it in Liquid Cooled snowmobiles , full syn it was adequate , a little carbon on the power valves nothing to serious the semi synthetic same performance in Air Cooled saws , just adequate . But then at its price point what do you expect !
> 
> Its adequate if you know how to tune for it !


No. No it isn’t. Wear was the problem. Dry bearings don’t go well. I can tune pretty well


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## bwalker (Jan 22, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> No. No it isn’t. Wear was the problem. Dry bearings don’t go well. I can tune pretty well


I agree. No amount of tuning will fix the issues I have seen with it.
Plus Lucas is a snake oil company in the first place.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

I can’t speak for the full synthetic. The other I saw if for myself. Not in pictures. I took the pictures.


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Stihl ultra isn’t so good


Still waiting for evidence of this....


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...


I can't help but wonder why my saws, which have run Ultra exclusively for years don't look like this.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 23, 2022)

because it depends on the mix of carburetor tuning and finally the use itself


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> because it depends on the mix of carburetor tuning and finally the use itself


That sure seems to play a large role. Which is why I don't understand why people don't follow the saw manufacturers mixture recommendations. I think the engineers that have put thousands of hours into R&D can make a stronger case for what they recomend than anyone else here that dreams up their own homebrew and then wonder why their saws look like hell, no offense intended.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 23, 2022)

I've always used mineral oil and nothing happened, more than a gallon for sure. Only last year I bought 2L polynthetics


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Still waiting for evidence of this....


Did you look at any of the pictures posted ?

no offense it’s just that there’s so many other oils out there that don’t carbon things up. 

myself I’ll just use a different oil.


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Did you look at any of the pictures posted ?
> 
> no offense it’s just that there’s so many other oils out there that don’t carbon things up.
> 
> myself I’ll just use a different oil.



I have, and almost every one of them admit to using a different mixture than is recommended by the manufacturer. All Stihl products have been tuned to 50:1 for years, don't we think the oil is part of that equation? Do the same people put 15w40 in an engine that calls for 0w20, cuz more is better? 
Again I ask the question, why don't my saws look like that after years of running Stihl oil exclusively. Judging by the comments on here its a real mystery.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> I can't help but wonder why my saws, which have run Ultra exclusively for years don't look like this.


Ultra was never designed for a conventional 2T chainsaw engine . Ultra HP is a better oil for your usage. However , you must have your saw tuned well if you have no spong or carbon fouling . I have a buddy who still uses the Ultra with no problems also in a 462 lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Redline Racing Oil is garbage. No expiereance with all sport.


Like i said no experience with the Redline Racing oil only the aircooled trimmer oil .


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> I have, and almost every one of them admit to using a different mixture than is recommended by the manufacturer. All Stihl products have been tuned to 50:1 for years, don't we think the oil is part of that equation? Do the same people put 15w40 in an engine that calls for 0w20, cuz more is better?
> Again I ask the question, why don't my saws look like that after years of running Stihl oil exclusively. Judging by the comments on here its a real mystery.


If it works for you. Run it. It’s been explained here for years and years. Not a mystery really. Some of these guys work on saws everyday. I work on my own. I’ll use something different


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ultra was never designed for a conventional 2T chainsaw engine . Ultra HP is a better oil for your usage.



The 2 oils I am aware of (maybe theres others?) Are the HP and HP Ultra. I have used the HP Ultra from day one in my 460 and 290, I was referring to the HP Ultra. Sorry for the confusion. 




Broken said:


> However , you must have your daw tuned well if you have no spong or carbon fouling .



Dang close to factory settings. I've seldom had to tweak either of my saws. I haven't touched the carb adjustments in either for at least a couple of seasons. 
But I also run the recommended 50:1 (go figure! )


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I agree. No amount of tuning will fix the issues I have seen with it.
> Plus Lucas is a snake oil company in the first place.


Well i have used both semi & full syn. LUCAS . Not my go to oil in any application , but for a all around oil for recreational use , have had no problems in Bikes , Snowmobiles , even air cooled hand held units when tuned properly . I have yrs of experience in 2t engines & can tune to the mix exceptionally well apparently .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> If it works for you. Run it. It’s been explained here for years and years. Not a mystery really. Some of these guys work on saws everyday. I work on my own. I’ll use something different


Hes running Ultra Hp , he's all good with it at 50:1 or 40:1 with stock tuning most likeky .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> I can't help but wonder why my saws, which have run Ultra exclusively for years don't look like this. "Ultra HP lol , thats better ! "


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I can’t speak for the full synthetic. The other I saw if for myself. Not in pictures. I took the pictures.


Ran the full syn in a 700 SKS for a yr out of necessity , no problems . Returned to my normal Dominator oil afterwards . Never ran it or the semi syn in a saw , however in a 2T Toro lawnmower & grass trimmers no problems . Not my go to oils but for the $$ no worries if mixed to the tune .


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Well i have used both semi & full syn. LUCAS . Not my go to oil in any application , but for a all around oil for recreational use , have had no problems in Bikes , Snowmobiles , even air cooled hand held units when tuned properly . I have yrs of experience in 2t engines & can tune to the mix exceptionally well apparently .


I’d be careful with the semi synthetic. That’s honestly the only oil I won’t run. 
I strongly dislike the stihl oil but a gallon or few I’d burn. 
I like my saws tuned well. It just didn’t lubricate efficiency for me. Rod bearing wire enough to let the piston touch the top of the cylinder. No piston scuff. Just wear. 
I pulled the muffler off two other saws just to check the exhaust side. Very dry. Typically when one of my husky’s rattle a muffler loose 
(Husky joke) the piston is at least shiny. 
Considering the wear to the rod on a 346. And posting those pictures on the other forum. Well it was an easy thing to just switch to something with more protection. 

I can be sure the saw was tuned. Also pulled mufflers after switching to just the cheap husky low smoke oil. Shiny on the exhaust. At least a trace of the oil was still there.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’d be careful with the semi synthetic. That’s honestly the only oil I won’t run.
> I strongly dislike the stihl oil but a gallon or few I’d burn.
> I like my saws tuned well. It just didn’t lubricate efficiency for me. Rod bearing wire enough to let the piston touch the top of the cylinder. No piston scuff. Just wear.
> I pulled the muffler off two other saws just to check the exhaust side. Very dry. Typically when one of my husky’s rattle a muffler loose
> ...


Won't buy Stihl or Husky or any Manufacturers oils , just relabelled junk !


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

Saw was a 346xp with mild port work. That specific saw needed more than the semi synthetic was giving it


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Won't buy Stihl or Husky or any Manufacturers oils , just relabelled junk !


Tend to agree.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Won't buy Stihl or Husky or any Manufacturers oils , just relabelled junk !


Most semi oils are dino with a % of Pao or Ester . Safe enough for my FC oil req'd applications . A little smoke or smell is not a game breaker in most of my recreational units . In my 346 xp & 357 xp or 5105 H or 7910-HD or MS660 milling saw , only FD rated full syn @ 44:1 ratio with 91 octane .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Saw was a 346xp with mild port work. That specific saw needed more than the semi synthetic was giving it


I would never run semi syn in a high compression saw application , yeah no FC or TCW-3 . Love my 346 xp last yr offered here up North , got it from a little ole lady in 2012 ! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> That sure seems to play a large role. Which is why I don't understand why people don't follow the saw manufacturers mixture recommendations. I think the engineers that have put thousands of hours into R&D can make a stronger case for what they recomend than anyone else here that dreams up their own homebrew and then wonder why their saws look like hell, no offense intended.


The manufacturers recommendation is with their fish oil @ their recommended ratio for novice applications . Also , they love warranty work or refusal of warranty work eg: Echo . Anyhow , yes experienced owner operators , buy better oils & mix & tune to their application . I have seen numerous milling & commercial felling saws melt down with Manufacturers oil & ratio's over the yrs ! lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> That is why i prefer the V series and not the E series ( duraforce ).


Majority of coil failures were due to defective coil wires in the F Series Lawnboys & 1st gen E Series.The later E Series Duraforce did have a run of defective 2 stage coils . Oem #68048 could be replaced with a Sten's former F series 99-2911 or a newer E series 99-2916 replacement coil , end of problems . Lawnboy eventually changed coil suppliers to resolve the issue once & forever !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Saw was a 346xp with mild port work. That specific saw needed more than the semi synthetic was giving it


My 357 xp I woods ported with a mild transfer port chamfer & intake / exhaust porting . I also opened up the muffler to enhance the port & transfer reworking . It competes with the 346 xp in the wood rpm . Its a screamer with semi chisel !


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## SweetMK (Jan 23, 2022)

I have been reading the oil thread, and thought I would comment.
most dino oils are similar,, most synthetic oils are similar,, 
(I say "most" because, there will always be an exception.)

What really is the difference between oil "A" and oil "B" is* the polymers that modify the oil.*

To visualize a polymer, think of a tow chain,, where the links of the chain are connected. BUT, weakly connected.
The polymers are long, relative to the diameter, like a tow chain.
Also, the polymers are coiled, like a coil spring.

The polymers vary from one manufacturer to another, but, are similar.
The longer the polymers, the stronger the links that are formed between polymers.
The stronger the links, the better the engine will be lubricated.

The BIGGEST factor pertaining to the polymers are the length of the polymers..
AND,, age of the polymer. 
As the polymers get older, the bonds send to "fail" and the polymers are then shorter.
Shorter polymers can not interact with other polymers as much as long ones.

*Short polymers simply can not protect an engine as well.*

Why did I type all of this?? *the AGE of the oil that is used!!*
Many people find oil "A" to be superior, others find oil "A" to fail.
*This could be explained simply by the age of the oil.*

If your dealer has too much oil in stock, or does not rotate stock of the oil,, 
your old oil could fail to protect your engine.

If you have 2 cycle oil that is over 3 years old, toss it.
ONLY buy as much oil as you can use in a year or two.
Check the date on the oil that you buy,, if it is over two years old, leave it on the shelf.

I ONLY buy a small container of oil at a time, sometimes on the way to buy fresh gas,,
I would NEVER consider buying a quart, the oil would last FAR beyond the age limit of the polymers,, for me.

ALSO, once you mix the gas and oil,, the gasoline starts to break the polymer chains,,
YEP, you guessed it, old oil/gas mix does a horrible job of protecting your engine.

No one ever advertises this info,,
it would be like telling you that there might be a monster in your cereal box!!
NO ONE would buy a cereal that might have a monster in the box,,,,,,,,,,,

Keep the monster out of your chainsaw, use fresh oil, and fresh gas,,,


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## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> I have, and almost every one of them admit to using a different mixture than is recommended by the manufacturer. All Stihl products have been tuned to 50:1 for years, don't we think the oil is part of that equation? Do the same people put 15w40 in an engine that calls for 0w20, cuz more is better?
> Again I ask the question, why don't my saws look like that after years of running Stihl oil exclusively. Judging by the comments on here its a real mystery.


Mostly, because when I modify a saw, I take on the responsibility of guaranteeing the motor. If I add 30 lbs of compression and force a 50cc saw to cut like a 70cc saw, I’d like to make sure the bearings have enough oil being thrown at them. And 50:1 doesn’t leave enough cushion when the replacement parts alone add up to more than the cost of the modifications.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Won't buy Stihl or Husky or any Manufacturers oils , just relabelled junk !


Husky oil isn't bad, echo oil has always been good. Stihl is the only one with chronically shitty oil. Worth noting Canadian stihl Orange bottle is made by Castrol and isn't the same stuff we get in the states. No experience with it.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Husky oil isn't bad, echo oil has always been good. Stihl is the only one with chronicle shitty oil. Worth noting Canadian stihl Orange bottle is made by Castrol and isn't the same stuff we get in the states. No expiereance with it.


If i only had a choice of using stihl oil i would chose orange bottle. I just can't stand the headaches from running stihl ultra.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

SweetMK said:


> I have been reading the oil thread, and thought I would comment.
> most dino oils are similar,, most synthetic oils are similar,,
> (I say "most" because, there will always be an exception.)
> 
> ...


What a load of crap.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Still waiting for evidence of this....


It's been posted. You have any evidence that suggests different?


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What a load of crap.


I was waiting on you to chime in Ben.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’d be careful with the semi synthetic. That’s honestly the only oil I won’t run.
> I strongly dislike the stihl oil but a gallon or few I’d burn.
> I like my saws tuned well. It just didn’t lubricate efficiency for me. Rod bearing wire enough to let the piston touch the top of the cylinder. No piston scuff. Just wear.
> I pulled the muffler off two other saws just to check the exhaust side. Very dry. Typically when one of my husky’s rattle a muffler loose
> ...


Run red armor oil and redmax oil is good as well both are FD rated got a Zenoah Komatsu RedMax trimmer here from 2005 that has never been apart running those two oils and used commercially since then.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)




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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's been posted. You have any evidence that suggests different?



Appreciate the info.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Husky oil isn't bad, echo oil has always been good. Stihl is the only one with chronically shitty oil. Worth noting Canadian stihl Orange bottle is made by Castrol and isn't the same stuff we get in the states. No experience with it.


Castrol 2T has a good history . Used it back in the 70's & 80's injector oil for my Kawasaki Road bikes . However Red Armour may be an exception as to a quality manufacturers oil . Most Manufacturer oils are just adequate at a premium price point . To many other aftermarket premium oils out there to pay through the nose for a mediocre dealer oil !


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Stihl Ultra 40:1 with e free from the pump is the greatest….
> 
> 
> Not
> ...




Can you elaborate more? This is a brand new rig? Tuned or factory?


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## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Can you elaborate more? This is a brand new rig? Tuned or factory?


Stock 2021 model ms261c. Guessing maybe 50 hours


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## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Can you elaborate more? This is a brand new rig? Tuned or factory?


And I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just sharing what I see. Some folks have no idea one way or the other, they’re using what they assume should be the best because that’s what’s recommended.
Problem is most folks don’t understand how a strato saw works. I believe you mentioned earlier a couple old school saws that are clean and run fine. Running a strato saw at 50:1 is akin to running your 046 (I think that’s what model you mentioned) at about 70:1. It obviously works for some, but if I’m assuming responsibility for the motor, it’s not enough for me.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Castrol 2T has a good history . Used it back in the 70's & 80's injector oil for my Kawasaki Road bikes . However Red Armour may be an exception as to a quality manufacturers oil . Most Manufacturer oils are just adequate at a premium price point . To many other aftermarket premium oils out there to pay through the nose for a mediocre dealer oil !


Power blend was great top. Husky oil has always been good as well.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> And I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just sharing what I see. Some folks have no idea one way or the other, they’re using what they assume should be the best because that’s what’s recommended.
> Problem is most folks don’t understand how a strato saw works. I believe you mentioned earlier a couple old school saws that are clean and run fine. Running a strato saw at 50:1 is akin to running your 046 (I think that’s what model you mentioned) at about 70:1. It obviously works for some, but if I’m assuming responsibility for the motor, it’s not enough for me.


Shortly after Ultra first came on the market I ran it in a new 361 I bought because I got a large quantity for free with the saw. I used that 6 pack of 2.5 gallon mix(IIRC) bottle up and sent the saw out for porting. The guy doing the port work called me when the saw arrived and asked what oil I was running as it looked terrible internally. I was shocked to see the pictures he sent.
I then did some digging and found out Ultra was a FB quality, ashless oil designed as a band aid fix for issues in Stihls 4mix engine.
The nasty smell should have alerted me to as much, but the dealer really hyped the stuff up.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> And I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just sharing what I see. Some folks have no idea one way or the other, they’re using what they assume should be the best because that’s what’s recommended.
> Problem is most folks don’t understand how a strato saw works. I believe you mentioned earlier a couple old school saws that are clean and run fine. Running a strato saw at 50:1 is akin to running your 046 (I think that’s what model you mentioned) at about 70:1. It obviously works for some, but if I’m assuming responsibility for the motor, it’s not enough for me.


The other thing I would mention is Kevin's 70:1 comment is spot on. Not only that, these strato engines run hotter than a traditional two stroke. Strato motors really do tax what ever oil you use much more so than a regular two stroke and the absolutely require a low ash FC or better yet FD oil. Not that ashless FB crap that is Ultra.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Power blend was great top. Husky oil has always been good as well.


Echo powerblend ? Yeah was a proven oil at a reasonable cost ! ($38 / 4 litre hug ) . Compared to Echo Red Armor @ ( $165 / 4 litre jug ) .


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

@ Huskhil I have a 290 and a 460, both saws are 10+ years old. I cut 10-12 cords a year for heat plus the occasional cleanup around here and at friends/family. I also use my 460 for milling so when it runs it gets a work out. Run on stihl oil exclusively from day one.

In light of this thread I pulled the mufflers off both. I have not had the mufflers off in at least 2 years, maybe 3 and was interested in how things looked compared to your pictures. I stuffed my wireless snake camera in for some pics. Buttoned them back up and came in to share them here and they did not transfer to my phone  Hook back up to device and they are there in storage but will not transfer. I will work on figuring this out as I am interested in your opinions. 

For now, the few I took with my phone. Nothing has been touched or cleaned up. The pictures you are probably most interested in are on my wireless snake. I will work on figuring that out in a bit after I am done clearing the driveways. Again. 
290 compression


460 compression


I've been told by a friend the 290 is on the low side but it has held steady ever since I began checking them which is 5 or 6 years now. And it runs great.

Screen on the 290 has not been cleaned in a few seasons. This saw sees the most use of the 2. 
Plug has a couple of seasons on it as well.




460 with the muffler off. I don't have one of the 290 on my phone but it was not any worse for wear compared to the 460.



I'll reiterate these saws have never been opened up. Not ever. Which makes your pics of a 1 year old saw all the more shocking. Either I have been super lucky or there are variables here that I'm missing.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Had a 2 yr old Echo SRM 225 trimmer gave to me the guy complained it lacked power and was hard to start. Used *stihl ultra* *and 93 since new* the ring is partially stuck and it has some gunky build up. DON'T RUN THIS OIL!!
@Broken @bwalker @huskihl


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

Maybe you run your saws good and hot which helps burn the leftovers up


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## jakethesnake (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Had a 2 yr old Echo SRM 225 trimmer gave to me the guy complained it lacked power and was hard to start. Used *stihl ultra* *and 93 since new* the ring is partially stuck and it has some gunky build up. DON'T RUN THIS OIL!!
> @Broken @bwalker @huskihl
> View attachment 958866
> 
> ...


Yeah. That’s pretty gummy


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Castrol 2T has a good history . Used it back in the 70's & 80's injector oil for my Kawasaki Road bikes . However Red Armour may be an exception as to a quality manufacturers oil . Most Manufacturer oils are just adequate at a premium price point . To many other aftermarket premium oils out there to pay through the nose for a mediocre dealer oil !


I got a quart of castrol go 2t rated FB here i bought last year for 6.99.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Yeah. That’s pretty gummy


Muffler is actually decent but the spark arrestor screen was partially plugged.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Maybe you run your saws good and hot which helps burn the leftovers up


Actually running them hot makes Ultra much worse.


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## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

@JRM 
You kind of made my point though. 10 cords per year x 1hr/cord is 10 hours/year. 10 years = 100 hours. Divide that by 2 saws and you have about 50 hours on each saw. Even if I’m off by a factor of 3, that’s only 150 hours each. And your exhaust port is closing up and already starting to score the piston.

There are actually oils out there that reduce carbon when used at heavy ratios.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> @ Huskhil I have a 290 and a 460, both saws are 10+ years old. I cut 10-12 cords a year for heat plus the occasional cleanup around here and at friends/family. I also use my 460 for milling so when it runs it gets a work out. Run on stihl oil exclusively from day one.
> 
> In light of this thread I pulled the mufflers off both. I have not had the mufflers off in at least 2 years, maybe 3 and was interested in how things looked compared to your pictures. I stuffed my wireless snake camera in for some pics. Buttoned them back up and came in to share them here and they did not transfer to my phone  Hook back up to device and they are there in storage but will not transfer. I will work on figuring this out as I am interested in your opinions.
> 
> ...


Exhaust port looks bad, the 290 is low on compression( let's see the ring area). What's the pistons looks like?
And your saws have low hours all things considered.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Echo powerblend ? Yeah was a proven oil at a reasonable cost ! ($38 / 4 litre hug ) . Compared to Echo Red Armor @ ( $165 / 4 litre jug ) .


Those are Canadian prices. Everything is much cheaper in the US.
But even so Red Armor is expensive.
If you want a great oil for a low price in Canada it's hard to beat Yamalube. In fact I would run/trust that over anything Amsoil offers.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Exhaust port looks bad, the 290 is low on compression. What's the pistons looks like?
> And your saws have low hours all things considered.


Compression was 85 on that echo that i tore apart. The ring gland was packed full of gum and lacquer.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Compression was 85 on that echo that i tore apart. The ring gland was packed full of gum and lacquer.


Probably the same story for the 290..


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

I imagine the catalytic muffler seated against the cylinder didn't help this poor echo.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I imagine the catalytic muffler seated against the cylinder didn't help this poor echo.


Heat really drives FB and marine oils into a death spiral. They simply don't have any deposit control above 300 degrees. This starts to limit ring mobility, blow by ensues, combustion games burn off most of the oil on the cylinder wall and you start to really wear the cylinder and rings. Sooner or latter you lose compression and it won't start or it seizes.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Heat really drives FB and marine oils into a death spiral. They simply don't have any deposit control above 300 degrees. This starts to limit ring mobility, blow by ensues, combustion games burn off most of the oil on the cylinder wall and you start to really wear the cylinder and rings. Sooner or latter you lose compression and it won't start or it seizes.


I try my best to use good oil and avoid stihl ultra at all costs and my equipment is running fine.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Had a 2 yr old Echo SRM 225 trimmer gave to me the guy complained it lacked power and was hard to start. Used *stihl ultra* *and 93 since new* the ring is partially stuck and it has some gunky build up. DON'T RUN THIS OIL!!
> @Broken @bwalker @huskihl
> View attachment 958866
> 
> ...


Yeah , that's pretty well shot !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Actually running them hot makes Ultra much worse.


Actually makes more carbon , since it can ' t burnt off efficiently .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> @ Huskhil I have a 290 and a 460, both saws are 10+ years old. I cut 10-12 cords a year for heat plus the occasional cleanup around here and at friends/family. I also use my 460 for milling so when it runs it gets a work out. Run on stihl oil exclusively from day one.
> 
> In light of this thread I pulled the mufflers off both. I have not had the mufflers off in at least 2 years, maybe 3 and was interested in how things looked compared to your pictures. I stuffed my wireless snake camera in for some pics. Buttoned them back up and came in to share them here and they did not transfer to my phone  Hook back up to device and they are there in storage but will not transfer. I will work on figuring this out as I am interested in your opinions.
> 
> ...


Carbon accumulating on the exhaust port, which has already begun to etch the piston skirt !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got a quart of castrol go 2t rated FB here i bought last year for 6.99.


HelI , only paid $3 back in 1970 ! .


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> He'll I only paid $3 back in 1970 ! .


I got a quart of Castrol snowmobile 2t oil around here somewhere it is rated api tc i got it a few years back.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Those are Canadian prices. Everything is much cheaper in the US.
> But even so Red Armor is expensive.
> If you want a great oil for a low price in Canada it's hard to beat Yamalube. In fact I would run/trust that over anything Amsoil offers.


Yeah , but that's what I mean even in the US , $30 a qt is ridiculous for aircooled oils . I still have some Yamalube from a buddy 2 yr old , should use it up . Actually still have a qt of shell 2T Advanced right beside it lol. I got to get more 2-t units or set up a 24 hr auction ! lol.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , but that's what I mean even in the US , $30 a qt is ridiculous for aircooled oils . I still have some from a buddy 2 yr old , should use it up . Actually still have a qt of shell 2T Advanced right beside it lol. I got to get more units or set u a 24hr auction ! lol.


Mix all the oils together and run it.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got a quart of Castrol snowmobile 2t oil around here somewhere it is rated api tc i got it a few years back.


Your a hoarder too lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Mix all the oils together and run it.


Hell yeah !


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Your a hoarder too lol.


Got to any more with shortages effecting everything.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Hell yeah !


I bought two quarts of this today to add to my 2 stroke oil container rated FC so it should work fine. 


https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/masterpro-oils/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---2-cycle/009c874df388/masterpro-2-cycle-motor-oil-1-quart/mp20/80022/v/a/3007/automotive-truck-1996-chevrolet-c1500-pickup-rwd?q=motor+oil+-+2+cycle&pos=4


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I bought two quarts of this today to add to my 2 stroke oil container rated FC so it should work fine.
> 
> 
> https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/masterpro-oils/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---2-cycle/009c874df388/masterpro-2-cycle-motor-oil-1-quart/mp20/80022/v/a/3007/automotive-truck-1996-chevrolet-c1500-pickup-rwd?q=motor+oil+-+2+cycle&pos=4


The no-ash designation has me concerned with aircooled usage , appears to be a semi syn TD / TC compliant . Also is a very lite viscosity injector or premix style oil , have to have your engine tuned accordingly . Low ash I would asking how much $ lol. My outboards are 4-stroke anyways , hate killing the minnows !


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> The no-ash designation has me concerned with aircooled usage , appears to be a semi syn TD / TC compliant . Low ash I would asking how much $ lol. My outboards are 4-stroke anyways , hate killing the minnows !


It say on the back of the bottle it is low ash.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> The no-ash designation has me concerned with aircooled usage , appears to be a semi syn TD / TC compliant . Low ash I would asking how much $ lol. My outboards are 4-stroke anyways , hate killing the minnows !


here is the back of the bottle the oil was 6.99 +tax


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Actually makes more carbon , since it can ' t burnt off efficiently .


And can't clean it off via detergency.
It's a bit more involved, but that's the cliffs note version.


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## Huskybill (Jan 23, 2022)

Warning there’s two stroke oil for injection two stroke engines, for quads and snowmobiles. This oil does not mix with gas well.

There is different two stroke oils for different liners or plated cylinders, steel, castiron, chrome, nickasil.

Adjust your carb to the ratio your using. Pick a ratio.

There are different saw operators. Some run half throttle some run wot. Wot gives the engine full air flow for cooling.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> here is the back of the bottle the oil was 6.99 +tax
> View attachment 958900


Appears to be an air cooled type low ash oil, but since it's not certified you won't know.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

This oil thread has a black cat life cycle . 9 lives + numerous opinions ! . Anyhow in summary any good FB or FC oil is adequate for recreational 2 cycle aircooled engines . FD rated or if you have money to burn , FD Certified oils are a good choice for those with compromised respiratory systems or low tolerance to petroleum distillate & aromatic hydrocarbons residue or are not mechanically inclined (Tuning 101) Back in the day 50 hr teardowns were routine , to decarbonize & inspect for component wear . Racing engines were tore down between race weekends to check for ring end gap specifications & bearing end play , along with rudimentary plug coloration & compression testing . The base oils were always FC rated initially , then when compression levels & multi cylinders engines became the norm caster based oils found their niche , since these veritable based oils protected engines from extreme heat & gallng or partial seize conditions , however they left behind nasty residue which coated everything , carbon fouling was extreme , necessitating even more frequent teardown . Oil technology has came a long way since liquid cooling & lower operating temps & emmission compliance has evolved to necessitate better sealing , more energy , less fouling & better durability & reliability + the bonus of potentially less emissions to the atmosphere . Good discussions !


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## Huskybill (Jan 23, 2022)

I remember in the 50’s my gocart clinton powered used Quaker state 30wt motor oil as two stroke oil. This is why the older two strokes still run today.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Appears to be an air cooled type low ash oil, but since it's not certified you won't know.


Used it before and it clean burning and leaves a nice film on everything It has a somewhat sweet smelling exhaust odor to it.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Huskybill said:


> Warning there’s two stroke oil for injection two stroke engines, for quads and snowmobiles. This oil does not mix with gas well.
> 
> There is different two stroke oils for different liners or plated cylinders, steel, castiron, chrome, nickasil.
> 
> ...


Actually injector oil mixes easier with gasoline, because it has more diluent.
The different two cycle oils for different cylinder materials is not something that I've ever believed in. A bit of an old wives tail IMO. However, it matters not in chain saws as everything built in the last few decades is plated.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Huskybill said:


> Warning there’s two stroke oil for injection two stroke engines, for quads and snowmobiles. This oil does not mix with gas well.
> 
> There is different two stroke oils for different liners or plated cylinders, steel, castiron, chrome, nickasil.
> 
> ...


It mixes better than opti 2 but i add 4 ounces to can then fill with 1 gallon of gas and shake the hell out of it.


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Exhaust port looks bad, the 290 is low on compression( let's see the ring area). What's the pistons looks like?
> And your saws have low hours all things considered.



Except its been "low" for years. LOL. 
I would be curiosu to see your pictures of your 10+ year old "low hour" stuff that hasn't been torn apart? That might make me a believer. 
I guess the pictures aren't very clear. I tried scraping the carbon off my "plugged" port with a pick. Very little there. The muffler is bone dry! LOL. You guys are comical.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> This oil thread has a black cat life cycle . 9 lives + numerous opinions ! . Anyhow in summary any good FB or FC oil is adequate for recreational 2 cycle aircooled engines . FD rated or if you have money to burn , FD Certified oils are a good choice for those with compromised respiratory systems or low tolerance to petroleum distillate & aromatic hydrocarbons residue . Back in the day 50 hr teardowns were routine , to decarbonize & inspect for component wear . Racing engines were tore down between race weekends to check for ring end gap specifications & bearing end play , along with rudimentary plug coloration & compression testing . The base oils were always FC rated initially , then when compression levels & multi cylinders engines became the norm caster based oils found their niche , since these veritable based oils protected engines from extreme heat & gallng or partial seize conditions , however they were left behind nasty residue which coated everything , carbon fouling was extreme , necessitating even more frequent teardown . Oil technology has came a long way , better sealing , more energy , less fouling & better durability & reliability + the bonus of potentially less emissions to the atmosphere . Good discussions !


FB is garbage oil.
FC or FD, preferably FD.

Castor came well before, decades in fact before FC and FD existed. It's a time thing. As oils improved they attained higher ratings.
FC was around in the 90's when the FD oils came out like Mobil 2R they were indeed better. Quality does matter.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Except its been "low" for years. LOL.
> I would be curiosu to see your pictures of your 10+ year old "low hour" stuff that hasn't been torn apart? That might make me a believer.
> I guess the pictures aren't very clear. I tried scraping the carbon off my "plugged" port with a pick. Very little there. The muffler is bone dry! LOL. You guys are comical.


Stihl ultra is best LOL NOT!


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Except its been "low" for years. LOL.
> I would be curiosu to see your pictures of your 10+ year old "low hour" stuff that hasn't been torn apart? That might make me a believer.
> I guess the pictures aren't very clear. I tried scraping the carbon off my "plugged" port with a pick. Very little there. The muffler is bone dry! LOL. You guys are comical.


You simply don't know what your looking at.
Like the guy earlier in thise thread that showed a piston worn to hell with only 5 hours on and thought it looked good!
And sitting round for ten years without being ran much doesn't mean squat.


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## Huskybill (Jan 23, 2022)

Using Injector 2T Oil as Premix 2 Stroke Oil - White Dog's Motorcycle Blog


Can you use a motorcycle injector 2 stroke oil as a premix 2T oil (and vice versa)? Differences between 2 stroke premix and injector systems….. What is a 2T premix system (also known as a Tank Mix system)? A 2 stroke premix system is where you have to mix the 2 stroke oil and the […]




www.whitedogbikes.com


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

Huskybill said:


> Warning there’s two stroke oil for injection two stroke engines, for quads and snowmobiles. This oil does not mix with gas well.
> 
> There is different two stroke oils for different liners or plated cylinders, steel, castiron, chrome, nickasil.
> 
> ...


Injector oils readily fall out of suspension ( separate ) in premix use , much like many straight castor oils . You must mix at room temp & agqitate often when not in use . Good points Bill ! P.S. I'm a half throttle / WOT kinda guy !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Appears to be an air cooled type low ash oil, but since it's not certified you won't know.


States its ashless in the write up , Ben ?


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You simply don't know what your looking at.
> Like the guy earlier in thise thread that showed a piston worn to hell with only 5 hours on and thought it looked good!



No pictures then? Thats ok. It is pretty evident by the amount you post you probably don't have the time to put hours on much.


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## Huskybill (Jan 23, 2022)

We ran two stroke injected motorcycles and still use two stroke quads to this day along with pre mix bikes. We keep the different oils separate.
Husqvarna pistons for there vintage dirtbikes aren’t cheap.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Injector oils readily fall out of suspension ( separate ) much like many straight castor oils . You must mix at room temp & agqitate often when not in use . Good points Bill ! P.S. I'm a half throttle / WOT kinda guy !


Not true at all. They actually mix better duento the fact they are thinner and have more dilluent.


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> States its ashless in the write up , J !


think there is a site error it states low ash on the bottle.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> No pictures then? Thats ok. It is pretty evident by the amount you post you probably don't have the time to put hours on much.


Here you go bud. Redmax EBZ8000 piston used professional for 7 seasons. I then used it on a regular basis for fall clean up, blow snow and for burning brush. Many times it ran all day long burning stump piles. Many hundreds of hours.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Here you go bud. Redmax EBZ8000 piston used professional for 7 seasons. I then used it on a regular basis for fall clean up, blow snow and for burning brush. Many times it ran all day long burning stump piles. Many hundreds of hours.


Should be noted this is a strato engine, runs hot and lean and I ran it hard. The motor got very hot while burning stumps and brush.
It ran perfect until I dropped a stump on it with an excavator while burning stumps.


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## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

Whats the exhaust port look like? 
You cut wood for a living?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> here is the back of the bottle the oil was 6.99 +tax
> View attachment 958900


Thanks bud , yeah clearly on the bottle label described as low-ash . The write up though described it ashless , silly boys ! How much a bottle $ ?


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Thanks bud , yeah clearly on the bottle label described as low-ash . The write up though described it ashless , silly boys ! How much a bottle $ ?


6.99 per quart or 27.96 + tax per gallon It is cheaper than lucas oil


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Thanks bud , yeah clearly on the bottle label described as low-ash . The write up though described it ashless , silly boys ! How much a bottle $ ?


I tried to PM you but i could not.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> It say on the back of the bottle it is low ash.


Yep thanks for the back label photo , O'Reilly's detailed description stated where no ash 2 stroke application is required ! Their fupar !!


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Probably the same story for the 290..


Guaranteed !


----------



## RedFir Down (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> What a load of crap.


Which part?
Does 2 cycle oil have a self life?


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yep thanks for the back label photo , O'Reilly's detailed description stated for ashless 2 stroke application ?


There low end two cycle oil they carry is API TC mineral and states it is ashless.
But this is not from the data sheet in store it has sulfated ash content of .04 - .08


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Whats the exhaust port look like?
> You cut wood for a living?


I logged for years, cut firewood for years too, and not just 10 cord a year. Now I cut a small amount of firewood and on occasion do some TSI work, land clearing ,etc. Anymore I make more money working overtime at the oil refinery I work for than doing side work. As a result I am pretty choosey on what I get involved in.
The exhaust port looked much better than yours with much more hours. No longer have the cylinder as it was trash after being crushed


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## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

RedFir Down said:


> Which part?
> Does 2 cycle oil have a self life?


I got twenty year old lawn boy oil i have used and it works just fine. If oil can set in the ground for 65 million years then 20 years in a sealed can is not going to be a problem.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

RedFir Down said:


> Which part?
> Does 2 cycle oil have a self life?


Pretty much all of it.
Went of the rails as soon as polymers where brought up. Those polymers are in multi weight automotive oils as viscosity improves and are not present in two cycle oils.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I tried to PM you but i could not.


I,ll try you bud !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got twenty year old lawn boy oil i have used and it works just fine. If oil can set in the ground for 65 million years then 20 years in a sealed can is not going to be a problem.


Hell , most Lawnboys are that old , what's your point ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And can't clean it off via detergency.
> It's a bit more involved, but that's the cliffs note version.


Absolutely , silly boy !


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> There low end two cycle oil they carry is API TC mineral and states it is ashless.
> But this is not from the data sheet in store it has sulfated ash content of .04 - .08


TC wouldnt be ashless, but regardless this oil doesn't pass any standards so you have no way of knowing what is in t it or if it meets minimal quality levels.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Hell , most Lawnboys are that old , what's your point ?


this was a solder seal can with no bar code it must have been old!


----------



## RedFir Down (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got twenty year old lawn boy oil i have used and it works just fine. If oil can set in the ground for 65 million years then 20 years in a sealed can is not going to be a problem.


That was my rationale as well. 
First I have heard 2 cycle oil goes bad on the shelf...



bwalker said:


> Pretty much all of it.
> Went of the rails as soon as polymers where brought up. Those polymers are in multi weight automotive oils as viscosity improves and are not present in two cycle oils.


So does 2 cycle oil have a shelf life?
I cant find a date stamp on anything I have.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> TC wouldnt be ashless, but regardless this oil doesn't pass any standards so you have no way of knowing what is in t it or if it meets minimal quality levels.


I can say for certain it is not stihl ultra LOL.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> this was a solder seal can with no bar code it must have been old!


Mineral based oils if left sealed last an exceedingly long time. Once they are unsealed they can go bad. Especially if they contain any esters.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> this was a solder seal can with no bar code it must have been old!


Yeah that plenty old , kinda like me !


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

RedFir Down said:


> That was my rationale as well.
> First I have heard 2 cycle oil goes bad on the shelf...
> 
> 
> ...


If it's factory sealed I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The exhaust port looked much better than yours with much more hours.



And here is where I continue to struggle with the theme. Claims with no pictures. Scraping with a pick, which I have never done, produced very little carbon. Very little. So far every picture I have seen slamming stihl is one thats either been modified or running a heavier mix, or both. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but when one chooses to deviate from the manufacturers recommendations you are your own warranty station. 

By now I am sure it seems as though I am a Stihl fan boy. Quite contrary. I am simply looking for real world results that I can relate to. And I'll gladly switch. 
Until then, I'll just blindly continue to use what I use, probably for another 10 years.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

My friends uses 50:1 and it did that to the echo what more proof do you want?


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Should be noted this is a strato engine, runs hot and lean and I ran it hard. The motor got very hot while burning stumps and brush.
> It ran perfect until I dropped a stump on it with an excavator while burning stumps.


Zenoah & Redmax started the strato technology , which eventually Husquarna acquired . The performance gains with the additional strato ports allows a much more efficient fresh air charge entrainment just a few degrees prior to the transfer ports cracking , this with the intake port opening allows a quick removal of exhaust gases to expedite the scavenging effect of fresh fuel into the cylinder . This additional air certainly does entail a leaner burn condition , which requires better jetting science from a non strato designs . Saw porting can really wake up a Strato saw increasing low rpm torque values with simple blowdown specs & duration changes during port & piston shaving ! Notable horsepower gains are easily attained also on high compression engines , using this strato recognized design perameters over conventional 2T engines !


----------



## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> And here is where I continue to struggle with the theme. Claims with no pictures. Scraping with a pick, which I have never done, produced very little carbon. Very little. So far every picture I have seen slamming stihl is one thats either been modified or running a heavier mix, or both. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but when one chooses to deviate from the manufacturers recommendations you are your own warranty station.
> 
> By now I am sure it seems as though I am a Stihl fan boy. Quite contrary. I am simply looking for real world results that I can relate to. And I'll gladly switch.
> Until then, I'll just blindly continue to use what I use, probably for another 10 years.


Pretty easy to do your own test. Cut wood for a year running an oil that’s proven to work better at not building carbon and make your own decision.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Zenoah & Redmax started the strato technology , which eventually Husquarna acquired . The performance gains with the additional strato ports allows a much more efficient fresh air charge entrainment just a few degrees prior to the transfer ports cracking , this with the intake port opening allows a quick removal of exhaust gases to expedite the scavenging effect of fresh fuel into the cylinder . This additional air certainly does entail a leaner burn condition , which requires better jetting science from a non strato designs . Saw porting can really wake up a Strato saw increasing low rpm torque values with simple blowdown specs & duration changes during port & piston shaving ! Notable horsepower gains are easily attained also on high compression engines , using this strato recognized design perameters over conventional 2T engines !


My redmax from 2005 is a strato engine uses a double barrel walbro WYL carburetor with interesting cylinder porting.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Pretty easy to do your own test. Cut wood for a year running an oil that’s proven to work better at not building carbon and make your own decision.



OK. What do you recommend? 
Hoping not Amsoil.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Echo red armor.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> My redmax from 2005 is a strato engine uses a double barrel walbro WYL carburetor with interesting cylinder porting.


That's the additional Strato siamesed runner ports , enabling the more efficient engine breathing !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> OK. What do you recommend?
> Hoping not Amsoil.


Hell yeah Dominator , all the way !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Echo red armor.


You safe bidder !


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> And here is where I continue to struggle with the theme. Claims with no pictures. Scraping with a pick, which I have never done, produced very little carbon. Very little. So far every picture I have seen slamming stihl is one thats either been modified or running a heavier mix, or both. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but when one chooses to deviate from the manufacturers recommendations you are your own warranty station.
> 
> By now I am sure it seems as though I am a Stihl fan boy. Quite contrary. I am simply looking for real world results that I can relate to. And I'll gladly switch.
> Until then, I'll just blindly continue to use what I use, probably for another 10 years.


For starters a good oil will burn very cleanly at something like 32:1.
Modifying also tends take an engine easier on oil.
You have been led to water.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> That's the additional Strato siamesed runner ports , enabling the more efficient engine breathing !


It is easier on fuel than my efco or echo i got mine tuned a bit richer to keep it cool but the carb is touchy and so is the engine.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> My friends uses 50:1 and it did that to the echo what more proof do you want?



Being I don't know your friend and his ability to competently mix gas and maintain a saw, I'd like a little more proof than the proof you are submitting. 

Thanks anyway.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Hell yeah Dominator , all the way !


Amsoil works well fir keeping dust down on gravel roads...


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Being I don't know your friend and his ability to competently mix gas and maintain a saw, I'd like a little more proof than the proof you are submitting.
> 
> Thanks anyway.


Look at the photo steve wonder!


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Being I don't know your friend and his ability to competently mix gas and maintain a saw, I'd like a little more proof than the proof you are submitting.
> 
> Thanks anyway.


Yea, improperly mixed fuel..lol.
Still waiting on pics of your piston skirt and ring area.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Stihl fan boys and there all mighty ultra koolaid.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> For starters a good oil will burn very cleanly at something like 32:1.


Not true across the board. At all. 



bwalker said:


> You have been led to water.



Thank you! I do appreciate the keyboard warrior knowledge you present.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Not true across the board. At all.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I do appreciate the keyboard warrior knowledge you present.


Actually it is. Been doing so for three decades. And the piston I posted a picture of had been run on 32:1 its entire life.
And again, you've been lead to water.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Stihl fan boys and there all mighty ultra koolaid.


Forgive me for being new to your click. All I have asked, from day one, is proof that stihl oil is detrimental to an engine longevity when mixed and tuned properly. So far there have been exactly 2 members that have been both knowledgeable and helpful. The rest has been useless noise.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Forgive me for being new to your click. All I have asked, from day one, is proof that stihl oil is detrimental to an engine longevity when mixed and tuned properly. So far there have been exactly 2 members that have been both knowledgeable and helpful. The rest has been useless noise.


You have discounted what you don't want to hear or see and have basked in whatever you think supports your totally ignorant opinion. 
There is plenty of evidence out there.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Actually it is. Been doing so for three decades.



Says the guy in his 40's. LOL! 

I have been running saws since I was a wee lad, as well as my 2 teenage boys. But to insinuate that anyone has a clue as to the chemistry of oil at that age, or how the saw reacts to different tunes/ mixes, especially oil technology of that time frame is being dishonest at best. I'm giving ya some rope there.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Amsoil works well fir keeping dust down on gravel roads...


Now don't you be pissing on Kevins oil of choice Ben ! lol.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Amsoil works well fir keeping dust down on gravel roads...


Hell & I just stocked up on 30 bags of Calcium Chloride !


----------



## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> OK. What do you recommend?
> Hoping not Amsoil.


I was never a scamsoil fan. But Dominator does burn clean. Red Armor leaves more behind to lubricate bearings. Schaeffers is another. Those are the only oils I have any experience with for running clean. I’m sure there are others but I have no experience outside those I mentioned


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

Thats where you are wrong. You obviously aren't hearing what I have been asking for, and I am done asking.
Thanks to Huskhil and Broken for the insightful info and dialect. At Huskhils advice I will try something different. Clean out my plugged ports and reinstall my clean (not cleaned!) mufflers and I will run something different for a year. They have showed much knowledge (and patience) throughout this thread, and I appreciate that.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I was never a scamsoil fan. But Dominator does burn clean. Red Armor leaves more behind to lubricate bearings. Schaeffers is another. Those are the only oils I have any experience with for running clean. I’m sure there are others but I have no experience outside those I mentioned


You like your super tech as well Kevin but ole walmart has been out of it since October.


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## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Not true across the board. At all.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! I do appreciate the keyboard warrior knowledge you present.


He’s a little brash, rough around the edges even. But he’s not wrong


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I was never a scamsoil fan. But Dominator does burn clean. Red Armor leaves more behind to lubricate bearings. Schaeffers is another. Those are the only oils I have any experience with for running clean. I’m sure there are others but I have no experience outside those I mentioned



OK. I have a Schaeffers rep here local. Have been using their gear oils and gear box oils for a long time. Thank you.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 23, 2022)

huskihl said:


> I was never a scamsoil fan. But Dominator does burn clean. Red Armor leaves more behind to lubricate bearings. Schaeffers is another. Those are the only oils I have any experience with for running clean. I’m sure there are others but I have no experience outside those I mentioned


Don't sell yourself short Kevin , your reputation precedes you brother . I have it on good resource your a wealth of information . P.S. I just put back together an old Homelite top handle I am going to do the trial on with the Dominator vs Interceptor vs Saber . I have not forgotten your advice ! Thanks !


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Don't sell yourself short Bill , your reputation precedes you brother . I have it on good resource your a wealth of information . P.S. I just put back together an old Homelite top handle I am going to do the trial on with the Dominator vs Interceptor vs Saber . I have not forgotten you advice ! Thanks !


why not mix all three oils together and try it?


----------



## huskihl (Jan 23, 2022)

Broken said:


> Don't sell yourself short Bill , your reputation precedes you brother . I have it on good resource your a wealth of information . P.S. I just put back together an old Homelite top handle I am going to do the trial on with the Dominator vs Interceptor vs Saber . I have not forgotten your advice ! Thanks !


Who’s Bill? Lol

I’m Kevin. And thanks for the kind words. I’m just sharing what I’ve seen. I don’t really care what people do, just hate to see failures that could be prevented with some minor due diligence


----------



## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Says the guy in his 40's. LOL!
> 
> I have been running saws since I was a wee lad, as well as my 2 teenage boys. But to insinuate that anyone has a clue as to the chemistry of oil at that age, or how the saw reacts to different tunes/ mixes, especially oil technology of that time frame is being dishonest at best. I'm giving ya some rope there.


If it hasn't sunk in by 45 it's not going to. I knew what was up in my 20's because I took the time to learn a thing or two. Since then I've seen a thing or two as well. 
You not only don't know much, you haven't seen much either.


----------



## JRM (Jan 23, 2022)

bwalker said:


> If it hasn't sunk in by 45 it's not going to. I knew what was up in my 20's because I took the time to learn a thing or two. Since then I've seen a thing or two as well.
> You not only don't know much, you haven't seen much either.


Did we just go from 3 decades experience to 2? I sense we are getting closer to the truth! 
You may be great to some on this forum but to be honest, I wouldn't give a nickel for your advice. You can kindly take your arrogance elsewhere.


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## bwalker (Jan 23, 2022)

JRM said:


> Did we just go from 3 decades experience to 2? I sense we are getting closer to the truth!
> You may be great to some on this forum but to be honest, I wouldn't give a nickel for your advice. You can kindly take your arrogance elsewhere.


I've been on this forum for close to 20 years and have been playing with two strokes since I was in junior high. I am now 45. Is that clear?
In addition I have certs in tribology, oil analysis , vibration analysis, have worked 2 years in the auto industry in R&D/quality control, worked for 5 years in mineral processing/mining, 7 years in coal, diesel and gas power generation and have going on four years in oil refining. I also owned my own business for six years and logged from September through April during this time. Not te mention firewood, land clearing, piece cutting etc in my spare time. And that's only my work history past the age of 18. I grew up working in my grandfather's machine shop from around the age of 12 on.
Let's hear about your resume.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 23, 2022)

Just farm work here most of the time i work for a small town in the public works department and on the side i maintain a local cemetery from spring through fall.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 24, 2022)

I had to google how many liters are in a quarter ;-)


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## Pioneer (Jan 24, 2022)

Well, here are the results of running Castrol for two seasons of firewood cutting. No noticable wear, cylinder crosshatch and piston machine marks still like new.
Quite low deposits in the exhaust port and muffler, next to nothing for varnish deposits around the rings or on the piston.
The oil seems to prefer running hot, there's nothing to speak of on the baffle for deposits, in fact you can still see the braze color in the corners of the baffle. The clean streak in the exhaust port is where I ran a finger, it dumped a bit of soot just recently from idling while I was running it to get some fresh gas in the carb after having it sit for 3 months.
Bit of a different story on top of the piston though, a thin even layer of black carbon deposit, you can still see the arrow on the piston pointing to the front. So it seems this oil is fine as far as wear goes, but I would like to see a bit less buildup on the top of the piston. This ms250 has seen a lot of heavy use in dry ash, so no lightweight limbing duties for it.
Overall OK oil if you run your equipment hot enough to prevent buildup, the price is reasonable too.
Will probably try Opti 2 next season, my uncle's been using it in his 024 AV super, cuts enough wood to heat his house all winter and the saw is still running strong after 30 years of use.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Well, here are the results of running Castrol for two seasons of firewood cutting. No noticable wear, cylinder crosshatch and piston machine marks still like new.
> Quite low deposits in the exhaust port and muffler, next to nothing for varnish deposits around the rings or on the piston.
> The oil seems to prefer running hot, there's nothing to speak of on the baffle for deposits, in fact you can still see the braze color in the corners of the baffle. The clean streak in the exhaust port is where I ran a finger, it dumped a bit of soot just recently from idling while I was running it to get some fresh gas in the carb after having it sit for 3 months.
> Bit of a different story on top of the piston though, a thin even layer of black carbon deposit, you can still see the arrow on the piston pointing to the front. So it seems this oil is fine as far as wear goes, but I would like to see a bit less buildup on the top of the piston. This ms250 has seen a lot of heavy use in dry ash, so no lightweight limbing duties for it.
> ...


Opti 2 can be a little difficult to mix in cold weather i recommend you keep it in a warm place till you need to use it.


----------



## JRM (Jan 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Is that clear?



The only thing thats clear is how stuck on yourself you are. I personally don't care what your credentials are. It's been clear from the beginning you know it all. I'll ask again, kindly move along and skip my name in the future.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 24, 2022)

huskihl said:


> Who’s Bill? Lol
> 
> I’m Kevin. And thanks for the kind words. I’m just sharing what I’ve seen. I don’t really care what people do, just hate to see failures that could be prevented with some minor due diligence


Sorry Kevin , Who killed Bill ? lol . minor due diligence , or an ounce of prevention prevents a pound of cure.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 24, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> why not mix all three oils together and try it?


That might meet the definition of a Homogenous mass indeed brother !


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Broken said:


> That might meet the definition of a Homogenous mass indeed brother !


I got a 2 gallon empty container and i am going to dump all my mix oils into it and give it a go.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> I had to google how many liters are in a quarter ;-)


1 US Quart = 32 fluid ounces US
1 Liter = 33.81 `fluid ounces US
3.78 Liters = 1 US gallon


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Broken said:


> That's the additional Strato siamesed runner ports , enabling the more efficient engine breathing !


All gibberish to me but i know if you don't run good stuff in these engines they go down hill in a hurry and can be temperamental at times.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 24, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> All gibberish to me but i know if you don't run good stuff in these engines they go down hill in a hurry and can be temperamental at times.


In a nut shell their temperamental to the tune , however have much more torgue than conventional saws in the cut . You may even noticed this with your trimmers ? P.S. Dolmar also has their version of Strato air induction !


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Broken said:


> In a nut shell their temperamental to the tune , however have much more torgue than conventional saws in the cut . You may even noticed this with your trimmers ?


Torque is noticed on certain trimmers but it all comes down to gear boxes with the max torque gear boxes that redmax has you can run 20 inches of line before noticing loss of power what you make up for in torque you also lose a 1000 rpms of rotating speed.


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 24, 2022)

I think there was 8 oz on my first saw. per gallon / years '90 / Partner 465


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 24, 2022)

it was like a 1-16 mix


----------



## Pioneer (Jan 24, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Opti 2 can be a little difficult to mix in cold weather i recommend you keep it in a warm place till you need to use it.


So true, found that out this week when I mixed a small batch for the leaf blower at -25c. Took a lot of shaking to mix it up, guess that's why they make an injection oil variation, the regular stuff would never flow properly at really cold temperatures.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> So true, found that out this week when I mixed a small batch for the leaf blower at -25c. Took a lot of shaking to mix it up, guess that's why they make an injection oil variation, the regular stuff would never flow properly at really cold temperatures.


A tablespoon of kerosene will make the oil a little thinner and easier to mix in cold weather.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 24, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> A tablespoon of kerosene will make the oil a little thinner and easier to mix in cold weather.


I'd just let the oil warm up inside before mixing. I've had to do this in cold temps before.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I know you think that video is impressive. It's not. Ponderosa Pine, of which I cut a bunch this year is super soft. My 361 blows through it ridiculously fast. And the stuff I am cutting is from a very arid climate with much closer growth rings.





JRM said:


> And here is where I continue to struggle with the theme. Claims with no pictures. Scraping with a pick, which I have never done, produced very little carbon. Very little. So far every picture I have seen slamming stihl is one thats either been modified or running a heavier mix, or both. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but when one chooses to deviate from the manufacturers recommendations you are your own warranty station.
> 
> By now I am sure it seems as though I am a Stihl fan boy. Quite contrary. I am simply looking for real world results that I can relate to. And I'll gladly switch.
> Until then, I'll just blindly continue to use what I use, probably for another 10 years.


Don't hold your breath @JRM ! I'm still waiting for Video evidence of his "ridiculously fast cutting 361", "blowing through" a 24" block of Pine!


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 24, 2022)

Broken said:


> In a nut shell their temperamental to the tune , however have much more torgue than conventional saws in the cut . You may even noticed this with your trimmers ? P.S. Dolmar also has their version of Strato air induction !


I have a Shindawa 14 " cutting head Commercial grade unit 15 yrs old & still a torque beast lol.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 24, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Don't hold your breath @JRM ! I'm still waiting for Video evidence of his "ridiculously fast cutting 361", "blowing through" a 24" block of Pine!


 Another member of the paper hat brigade!
The saw is on YouTube. Check Kevin's page out.


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)

To much whining in here.


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Another member of the paper hat brigade!
> The saw is on YouTube. Check Kevin's page out.


Na...I wanna see "YOU" run "YOUR" saw through a 24" block of Pine!


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 24, 2022)




----------



## LoneOak (Jan 24, 2022)

IKR!


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 24, 2022)

@JRM good call man. There’s lots of good oils out there. If red armor wasn’t so damn expensive I’d recommend that. But if it’s not a super huge deal try it. It’ll help clean those passages up too.


----------



## huskihl (Jan 24, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Another member of the paper hat brigade!
> The saw is on YouTube. Check Kevin's page out.


It’s not pine though lol. 26” beech will put a strain on a 361


----------



## bullittman281 (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm disappointed. I've an entire thread and nobody runs GaryGOO. Unbelievable.

On a more serious note about oil....

I typically run Motorcycle shop oils. Lots of Belray and a bit of Golden Spectro. I've had horrific luck with Super Techniplate making a mess of things. BAD!!! It was death to fuel filters. Clogzilla. No idea.

Unfortunately I don't run the saws enough for oil choice to matter much or show much of a difference. I kipe onto only a cord or 2 a year and most of the work is already done. I used to get lots of Belray MC1. I like this stuff a lot. The trials bikes seemed to do fine with it at 50:1. Old bottles had a strong warning about high dilution ratios only and the risk of stuck rings. The newer bottles don't have the warning. Packaging changed and now its very hard to find. I've used H1R in its place and I'm not as impressed. I had a woodsified YZ250 that got H1R for the life of and entire top end. Weisco piston. Started getting noisy at 90 Hrs. Wanted to go 100. Piston was SHINY. Like super super SHINEY. H1R calls for 40-50:1. I used 50:1. I don't think that was enough even for woods riding. More oil would probably have been a better choice. Next round was going to be Golden Spectro but sold the bike instead. I'm running a Beta 300 now but I haven't been inside. The YZ was CLEAN inside. Nothing in the exhaust and very little spooge. Water cooled though so not an apples to apples comparison to a saw.

At work we run only orange bottle Stihl oil. Seems to work OK. I I find some deposits but nothing alarming. don't think I would run it in the bikes though..... We have some 200Ts and 201Ts that go most of the day every day and they seem fine. Its amazing the amount of run time some of this stuff will tolerate and not need work. Things tend to get smashed or fall to their death before they can get worn out. Based on this thread though I will steer clear of Stihl Ultra.

For now my saws will get the same stuff that the bikes get. Its handy and I don't have to have different mixes. When the Spectro is gone I'll likely go back to H1R because I can get it. I am curious about opti2. The stuff has been around a long time.

Bullittman


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

bullittman281 said:


> I'm disappointed. I've an entire thread and nobody runs GaryGOO. Unbelievable.
> 
> On a more serious note about oil....
> 
> ...


Opti 2 needs to be kept in a warm spot in the winter it doesn't mix easily when cold because it isn't pre diluted like some oils.


----------



## CJ1 (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Don't sell yourself short Kevin , your reputation precedes you brother . I have it on good resource your a wealth of information . P.S. I just put back together an old Homelite top handle I am going to do the trial on with the Dominator vs Interceptor vs Saber . I have not forgotten your advice ! Thanks !


I have ran all 3 oils and the interceptor does burn a bit cleaner than the Dominator. Ran a bunch of interceptor in sleds for injection oil. We use Saber as a mix oil when we are going on long dirt bike trips, doesn't take much oil at 100 to 1. I have no wear data on Saber as the bikes are normally run on Dominator. Both the Dominator and interceptor show almost 0 wear on all of our bikes. And yes this is with measurements before the personal attacks start! We ran a 01 KTM 250exc to failure just to see what would happen. 15000+ miles over 550 hours on dominator and saber. 45 to 50 to 1 on dominator and 100 to 1 on saber. We purchased the bike new so I had a baseline. Compression was still within 10 psi of new just before the ring land broke on the first compression ring. Topend was NEVER touched. Rings were badly worn at over .030 more than spec but they had been run excessively! Bike should have had at least 5 topends! Piston skirt only had minor wear along with the nikasil plating. Cyl could have been cleaned and a oversize piston put in but when the ringland broke it scared the cyl wall. PV was fairly clean and still worked but was sticky. Put a new topend on the bike and it is still running. As far as saws go I have only had 2 of mine apart. 1 372 totally exploded the piston as it was heavily worked and very weak. Kevin fixed that one for me and it is still running the OEM cylinder. I pulled my 357 apart and cleaned the ports up and deleted the base gasket. No measurable wear any place and clean on the inside. Guessing 300 tanks of fuel+. Sold saw to a friend and it still runs great. [The one I should not have sold]. As far as the interceptor in sleds, pv and chambers have always looked clean and require very little maintenance. never measured any of them as they did not need to be torn down any farther. We also use Amsoil injector oil in our boats with good success. 2 300 HPDI's [most fussy engine Yamaha ever built] 1 250 HPDI and a 250 OX66. 1 of the 300's and the OX are modded. We used to run Yamalube and they required cleaning and alot of seafoam at least once a year. The 02 sensor in the OX was nasty with the Yamalube, with the Amsoil it has been good and only needs cleaned once every few years. We ran Yamalube in the race sleds and it was dirty in them also, protected good but dirty. Anyway sorry about the long post but this is just some of my past experience with Amsoil. Ran a bunch of Klotz products with varying success. R50 was a plug fouling SOB! Anyway just a FYI. CJ


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## Cycledude (Jan 25, 2022)

I only use 50:1 oil and really don’t care much what brand it happens to be


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## KTM-DOn (Jan 25, 2022)

> For now my saws will get the same stuff that the bikes get.



I was wondering if bike guys would put in their point of view. There is nothing that results in more angry folks and locked threads on the bike forums than oil arguments, often started by an innocent newbie to the forum. In any case, I've been a 2 stroke dirt bike guy for 50 yrs (yikes!) and owned saws for just as long. When the kids were starting out on 85cc bikes, we had crank issues that led to a lot of thought about oil choice and mix ratios. At the time we were running BelRay at 50:1, which I had been doing for years on my 250's. We ended up using Motul 800, or Motul 710 to save a little money, mixed at 36:1. So that's what goes in the saws, for better or for worse. I've not cut all day long since I was a kid, so the old 034 has a pretty easy life.

The bikes get top ends periodically as preventative maintenance, so my measure of oil performance is visible wear and carbon buildup. The Motul products seem to perform very well, so I see no reason to change.


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## CJ1 (Jan 25, 2022)

KTM-DOn said:


> I was wondering if bike guys would put in their point of view. There is nothing that results in more angry folks and locked threads on the bike forums than oil arguments, often started by an innocent newbie to the forum. In any case, I've been a 2 stroke dirt bike guy for 50 yrs (yikes!) and owned saws for just as long. When the kids were starting out on 85cc bikes, we had crank issues that led to a lot of thought about oil choice and mix ratios. At the time we were running BelRay at 50:1, which I had been doing for years on my 250's. We ended up using Motul 800, or Motul 710 to save a little money, mixed at 36:1. So that's what goes in the saws, for better or for worse. I've not cut all day long since I was a kid, so the old 034 has a pretty easy life.
> 
> The bikes get top ends periodically as preventative maintenance, so my measure of oil performance is visible wear and carbon buildup. The Motul products seem to perform very well, so I see no reason to change.


Hey, good to see you here! Yea sad about the whole oil debate! Mike at cycle playground was the one who convinced me to go to Dominator as he has not found a better protecting and clean running oil. He tried a bunch of different ones for his kid when he was running 80cc bikes and had the best results with Dominator. His son is HARD on bikes as a pro rider. CJ


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## KTM-DOn (Jan 25, 2022)

I've only heard good things about Amsoil Dominator, and it sounds like Mike has the experience to back it up. I think the 80cc bikes are the toughest case, the kids are fast enough to completely hammer those tiny motors. If I didn't have 2 kids on 85's at the same time, I probably would still be running Bel Ray or good old Spectro. I just recycled a whole box of blue cranks out of various 85 and 105 KTM motors.


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## KTM-DOn (Jan 25, 2022)

What kind of riding are you into, CJ1? I'm in the Ann Arbor area, and spent many hours racing MX at Milan on Friday night. Now it's mostly MX practice days; Milan, Log Rd, Battle Creek, etc.


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## Slackinoff (Jan 25, 2022)

I have had good luck with motocross oils. My favorites to run below. 

R50 - Klotz ( This is my #1 favorite to run, burns clean and the smell is unique but not overpowering)
Honda HP2 ( 2nd favorite, smell can get overpowering though)
Blendzall Green Label ( 3rd favorite - but somtimes that caster oil smell really gets to me....I know a lot of folks love that smell, and I do too, but when I am working really hard....I get sick of it)


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

this piston does not look good / partner 842


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> this piston does not look good / partner 842


Worn plating i would clean it up and run it.


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## CJ1 (Jan 25, 2022)

KTM-DOn said:


> What kind of riding are you into, CJ1? I'm in the Ann Arbor area, and spent many hours racing MX at Milan on Friday night. Now it's mostly MX practice days; Milan, Log Rd, Battle Creek, etc.


Enduro and single track mostly, we have almost 10 miles of single track cut into our woods between me and all the neighbors. I quit the track riding years ago. too old for that. I am on KTM talk also. CJ


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> this piston does not look good / partner 842


Pretty unique piston.


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> I have ran all 3 oils and the interceptor does burn a bit cleaner than the Dominator. Ran a bunch of interceptor in sleds for injection oil. We use Saber as a mix oil when we are going on long dirt bike trips, doesn't take much oil at 100 to 1. I have no wear data on Saber as the bikes are normally run on Dominator. Both the Dominator and interceptor show almost 0 wear on all of our bikes. And yes this is with measurements before the personal attacks start! We ran a 01 KTM 250exc to failure just to see what would happen. 15000+ miles over 550 hours on dominator and saber. 45 to 50 to 1 on dominator and 100 to 1 on saber. We purchased the bike new so I had a baseline. Compression was still within 10 psi of new just before the ring land broke on the first compression ring. Topend was NEVER touched. Rings were badly worn at over .030 more than spec but they had been run excessively! Bike should have had at least 5 topends! Piston skirt only had minor wear along with the nikasil plating. Cyl could have been cleaned and a oversize piston put in but when the ringland broke it scared the cyl wall. PV was fairly clean and still worked but was sticky. Put a new topend on the bike and it is still running. As far as saws go I have only had 2 of mine apart. 1 372 totally exploded the piston as it was heavily worked and very weak. Kevin fixed that one for me and it is still running the OEM cylinder. I pulled my 357 apart and cleaned the ports up and deleted the base gasket. No measurable wear any place and clean on the inside. Guessing 300 tanks of fuel+. Sold saw to a friend and it still runs great. [The one I should not have sold]. As far as the interceptor in sleds, pv and chambers have always looked clean and require very little maintenance. never measured any of them as they did not need to be torn down any farther. We also use Amsoil injector oil in our boats with good success. 2 300 HPDI's [most fussy engine Yamaha ever built] 1 250 HPDI and a 250 OX66. 1 of the 300's and the OX are modded. We used to run Yamalube and they required cleaning and alot of seafoam at least once a year. The 02 sensor in the OX was nasty with the Yamalube, with the Amsoil it has been good and only needs cleaned once every few years. We ran Yamalube in the race sleds and it was dirty in them also, protected good but dirty. Anyway sorry about the long post but this is just some of my past experience with Amsoil. Ran a bunch of Klotz products with varying success. R50 was a plug fouling SOB! Anyway just a FYI. CJ


You would have not gotten away with that with a YZ,CRor KX. KTM has real high quality pistons and cylinders.
What I found is I lost power around 100 hours and this was with running forged pistons only. I wouldn't take cast pistons this far with a CR or YZ 250. I also had several cr500's and with a forged piston they would run ridiculous long time. The above expiereance was alot of wide open sand riding, hill climbing, etc. Never messed around on single track for any amount of time despite riding around in the general area of the loose moose national enduro course in Marquette County on a regular basis.
In regards to yamalube marine oil. I used it in all NY boats at the commercial fishing lodge I owned. I had perfect luck with it in our yamaha outboards. I also used Amsoil HP injector in my personal boat for several seasons. Couldnt say it was even a little bit better than Yamalube so I switched back. These were all carb equipped outboards. The HPDI motor is an entire different deal and stresses oil much more than a carb equipped motor.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Opti 2 needs to be kept in a warm spot in the winter it doesn't mix easily when cold because it isn't pre diluted like some oils.





bwalker said:


> You would have not gotten away with that with a YZ,CRor KX. KTM has real high quality pistons and cylinders.
> What I found is I lost power around 100 hours and this was with running forged pistons only. I wouldn't take cast pistons this far with a CR or YZ 250. I also had several cr500's and with a forged piston they would run ridiculous long time. The above expiereance was alot of wide open sand riding, hill climbing, etc. Never messed around on single track for any amount of time despite riding around in the general area of the loose moose national enduro course in Marquette County on a regular basis.
> In regards to yamalube marine oil. I used it in all NY boats at the commercial fishing lodge I owned. I had perfect luck with it in our yamaha outboards. I also used Amsoil HP injector in my personal boat for several seasons. Couldnt say it was even a little bit better than Yamalube so I switched back. These were all carb equipped outboards. The HPDI motor is an entire different deal and stresses oil much more than a carb equipped motor.


700 psig direct injection fuel charge , thats one turbulent fuel charge , I would love to see the fuel rail design characteristics ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Opti 2 can be a little difficult to mix in cold weather i recommend you keep it in a warm place till you need to use it.


All the 100 :1 rated prefix oils have very thick viscosity , something in the blend though helps to maintain the oil in suspension , much better than the past castor based oils which would fall out of suspension readily .


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> 700 psig direct injection fuel charge , thats one turbulent fuel charge , I would love to see the fuel rail design characteristics ?


HPDI was a real rube Goldberg setup with multiple fuel pumps etc.
The FICHT voice coil type injector system used by Evidrude was much more simple. I believe it was higher pressure too.


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> All the 100 :1 rated prefix oils have very thick viscosity , something in the blend though helps to maintain the oil in suspension , much better than the past castor based oils which would fall out of suspension readily .


Castor just doesn't like to mix with gasoline even in normal temps.
The synthetics used in those high mix ratio products blend much easier. However, as others have noted they donhave problems when it's cold. Not with staying suspended, but rather with mixing period.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> I have ran all 3 oils and the interceptor does burn a bit cleaner than the Dominator. Ran a bunch of interceptor in sleds for injection oil. We use Saber as a mix oil when we are going on long dirt bike trips, doesn't take much oil at 100 to 1. I have no wear data on Saber as the bikes are normally run on Dominator. Both the Dominator and interceptor show almost 0 wear on all of our bikes. And yes this is with measurements before the personal attacks start! We ran a 01 KTM 250exc to failure just to see what would happen. 15000+ miles over 550 hours on dominator and saber. 45 to 50 to 1 on dominator and 100 to 1 on saber. We purchased the bike new so I had a baseline. Compression was still within 10 psi of new just before the ring land broke on the first compression ring. Topend was NEVER touched. Rings were badly worn at over .030 more than spec but they had been run excessively! Bike should have had at least 5 topends! Piston skirt only had minor wear along with the nikasil plating. Cyl could have been cleaned and a oversize piston put in but when the ringland broke it scared the cyl wall. PV was fairly clean and still worked but was sticky. Put a new topend on the bike and it is still running. As far as saws go I have only had 2 of mine apart. 1 372 totally exploded the piston as it was heavily worked and very weak. Kevin fixed that one for me and it is still running the OEM cylinder. I pulled my 357 apart and cleaned the ports up and deleted the base gasket. No measurable wear any place and clean on the inside. Guessing 300 tanks of fuel+. Sold saw to a friend and it still runs great. [The one I should not have sold]. As far as the interceptor in sleds, pv and chambers have always looked clean and require very little maintenance. never measured any of them as they did not need to be torn down any farther. We also use Amsoil injector oil in our boats with good success. 2 300 HPDI's [most fussy engine Yamaha ever built] 1 250 HPDI and a 250 OX66. 1 of the 300's and the OX are modded. We used to run Yamalube and they required cleaning and alot of seafoam at least once a year. The 02 sensor in the OX was nasty with the Yamalube, with the Amsoil it has been good and only needs cleaned once every few years. We ran Yamalube in the race sleds and it was dirty in them also, protected good but dirty. Anyway sorry about the long post but this is just some of my past experience with Amsoil. Ran a bunch of Klotz products with varying success. R50 was a plug fouling SOB! Anyway just a FYI. CJ


Your a man after my own heart CJ . I,am a little long in the tooth , spent the majority of my early teens in the Amateur Class , racing air cooled MX & Enduro's in the summer & Super stock & Factory Mod sleds in the winter in the late 60's to early 70's . Eventually dropped the cycle competition to devote more time to the sled racing dynamics , Oval Sprint / Enduro - Cross Country / Drag . The 70's were quite a turbulent & exciting time in 2 cycle oil & engine design . Air cooled engines were refined into multi cylinder applications until horsepower levels peaked to a critical path , requiring more consistent temperature control to achieve anymore reliable horsepower , liquid cooling was engineered into the mix . I did quite well as an independent racer of Arctic Cat & Yamaha , so well that in 1975 the local distributor for Polaris approached me with a full sponsorship . I agreed and spent 2 yrs travelling throughout North America Competing , Kawartha Cup in Peterborough Ontario for our National Championships , Rhinlander Minnesota , Eagle River Wisconsin for USSRA Championship , along with stops various other International Series Sprint & Endurance Race Series . Initially Quaker State & Shell were the Primary Series Oil Sponsors with Bel-Ray , Opti2 & Klotz as Associate Series Sponsors . I have used all above noted Oil Manufacturer products with great success in both Cycles & Sleds . Usually in Premix ratios of 40:1 in the MX Class Cycles & Air Cooled Class Sleds & 50:1 in the Enduro Class Cycles & Liquid Cooled Sleds . Also within saws at the same ratios but not the same predictable results ! lol. Later on the Oil technology again fell behind , when the Higher horsepower sleds needed more refined protection than the current Mineral based oils could deliver . Thus the niche was made for Blended Castor based oils in the 80' s , these blended castor oils allowed maximum engine failure protection , with reasonable teardown schedules for carbon fouling prevention . I did well enough eventually to achieve a full independent factory ride , a 650 TX Starfire Centurian Triple Free-air with Polaris for the 1976/77 season . Bob Eastman & Leroy Linblad had retired from active drivers , & Steve Thorson , Jerry Bunke & Brad Hulings from Mercury fame were hired on . Bob & Leroy continued on as Race Directors & Engineers respectively . I learned a lot from Leroy on chassis & suspension / track set up . Bob was great at Engine Design & Reliability Testing Protocols . I really was impressed with their devotion to oil testing perimeters , that I expanded it to my cycles in the off season . Anyhow your testimonials within your engine manufacturers & oil applications rings true to fact . I fondly recall my days in the sun with my 1970 Hondaka Super Rat , 1971 KX-350 Big-horn , 1972 Cz-250 MX & later 1977 Husky-390 & 1978 Can-Am 370 qualifier , which actually still own . I currently have run Dominator in the Can-Am , switched to Interceptor in Sept. My current 2 sleds Polaris 700 SKS Trail Sled with a reworked Liberty Engine sans power valves , have ran it at 50:1 with Interceptor or with 100:1 Saber premix added during injector system use . My other sled is a Polaris 850 Patriot RMK Mountain Sled with power valves , both sleds have numerous performance hours with no issues . Thanks for your input I concurr with your rational & findings brother & the memories ! . P.S. R.I.P. Jim Adema , a personal friend from Belmont Michigan , who taught me porting 101 a fellow independent racer , Snow-Jet "Thunder-Jet pilot , until his death at Ironwood Michigan in 1975 , incredible engineer & human being


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Castor just doesn't like to mix with gasoline even in normal temps.
> The synthetics used in those high mix ratio products blend much easier. However, as others have noted they donhave problems when it's cold. Not with staying suspended, but rather with mixing period.


Yeah , the Benol & especially the R50 needed to be mixed & stored in our heated Sled Hauler . It would fall out of suspension within a few hrs of storage , if not remixed , Pretty well stayed in suspension @ -20+ , @ least during 500 mile Endurance runs @ The International (I-500) Endurance Race with terminal speeds of 130 mph. on the dog leg back stretch . That Factory 650 c.c. Centurian Air-Cooled Triple was Bullet Proof as was the Magniesium / Titanium bulk head !


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , the Benol & especially the R50 needed to be mixed & stored in our heated Sled Hauler . It would fall out of suspension within a few hrs of storage , if not remixed , Pretty well stayed in suspension @ -20+ , @ least during 500 mile Endurance runs @ The International (I-500) Endurance Race with terminal speeds of 130 mph. on the dog leg back stretch . That Factory 650 c.c. Centurian Air-Cooled Triple was Bullet Proof as was the Magniesium / Titanium bulk head !


When Inwas very young my dad had a 500cc Centurian. I've also been to the I500.
The guy that worked on my sleds use to build sleds for the I500.
I know for a fact that Super Techniplate snd Maxima 927 both won't stay mixed in temps under 40 degrees. Didn't have much luck getting them to remix either without warming the fuel up.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> When Inwas very young my dad had a 500cc Centurian. I've also been to the I500.
> The guy that worked on my sleds use to build sleds for the I500.
> I know for a fact that Super Techniplate snd Maxima 927 both won't stay mixed in temps under 40 degrees. Didn't have much luck getting them to remix either without warming the fuel up.


The 1979 500 Centurian was a tamed down clone of Leroy's 1975 Soo I-500 Winning Factory Limited Starfire 650 liquid triple . The liquid 500 was manufactured by Fugi Industries in Japan . As with all TX Starfire engines it was incredibly fast and reliable . I'am dated still prefer the 1972 TX-500 Starfire Limited Sled those 3 exposed free air heads poking through the cowl ! P.S. Still my favorite snowmobile race town . We entered the Soo race in 74 as independents , started 37 th ended in 17 th . In 75 as a Associate Polaris Factory Team we finished 11 th well behind Leroy & Larry Rugland & Wes Pesek . In 1978 again as independents , but Mercury factory backed we , finally broke through & we won with my buddies John , Ken & Don . It was my last yr as an Active Driver !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> All the 100 :1 rated prefix oils have very thick viscosity , something in the blend though helps to maintain the oil in suspension , much better than the past castor based oils which would fall out of suspension readily .


ran 70:1 opti oil for a few years on my trimmers it left a nice oil film and had no odor and produced no smoke left the ports spotless as well but opti has gotten hard to find so i am back to my cheap 32:1 with great results.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> this piston does not look good / partner 842


I would say that you have set its carburetor to lean....since its scratched mostly on the exhaust side!


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

I didn't use it / I bought it for the proverbial 10 $ / for a lean gas cooker? is it a little oil?


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

writes that x-torch needs more oil around 1-30


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

someone used vegetable oil and damaged the seal on the clutch side


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

No...."to lean" means.....no 4stroking @WOT! That translates into.....no cooling efect (for the engine/cylinder) when unburnt fuel (unburnt because carburetor isxset to rich) expands into the muffler (that expansion sound as 4stroking).

Its the same efect as with an AC (air condition) .....when compressed air expands into the room.....it makes room cooler!


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Got me a case of my usual at Walmart that i run at 32:1 the msds is not very telling of what it has but i know someone sent it to a lab and found out it has got bit of calcium in it.
It is clean burning and leaves a good film of oil and doesn't have a odor what so ever. flash point is 424 *F 


http://msds.walmartstores.com/client/document?productid=1294072&productguid=5a24b1d0-2326-470c-9c8e-2d8974422ffc&DocumentKey=undefined&HazdocumentKey=undefined&MSDS=0&subformat=NAM


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> No...."to lean" means.....no 4stroking @WOT! That translates into.....no cooling efect (for the engine/cylinder) when unburnt fuel (unburnt because carburetor isxset to rich) expands into the muffler (that expansion sound as 4stroking).
> 
> Its the same efect as with an AC (air condition) .....when compressed air expands into the room.....it makes room cooler!


Oh , that's clear enough , so when the rate of evaporation , exceeds the dew point ! What happens ...again ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Got me a case of my usual at Walmart that i run at 32:1 the msds is not very telling of what it has but i know someone sent it to a lab and found out it has got bit of calcium in it.
> It is clean burning and leaves a good film of oil and doesn't have a odor what so ever. flash point is 424 *F
> 
> 
> ...


You have to ship some of that bargain store 2T up North here , so I can trial it in my Mosquito fogger , bet it would be a real crowd pleaser !


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Oh , that's clear enough , so when the rate of evaporation , exceeds the dew point ! What happens ...again ?


Had to google translate "the dew point"... 

Well.....I am using my two strokes in an ideal world  Where there is nice Pub in the middle of the forest near by....wich serves cold beer....so I can go on cold beer when "the dew point" strikes in


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> You have to ship some of that bargain store 2T up North here , so I can trial it in my Mosquito fogger , bet it would be a real crowd pleaser !


According to the BITOG forum....Super tech is product of Waren oil or even Citygo oil company..and is trusted/good oil!


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Had to google translate "the dew point"...
> 
> Well.....I am using my two strokes in an ideal world  Where there is nice Pub in the middle of the forest near by....wich serves cold beer....so I can go on cold beer when "the dew point" strikes in


Prefer my porter at room temperature.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

google translator funny translating


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> You have to ship some of that bargain store 2T up North here , so I can trial it in my Mosquito fogger , bet it would be a real crowd pleaser !


it doesn't smoke in either my lawn boy or my trimmer


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 25, 2022)

I look at the translator and sometimes I change the content because I am laughing


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Prefer my porter at room temperature.


@room temperature.....pffffft!!! 









Chimay Blue (Grande Reserve) - 33cl - Buy beer online


Chimay Blue (Grande Reserve) 33cl - Buy your Blue Beer and matching beer glass in this online shop. This Belgian beer is brewed by Scourmont Abbey.




www.belgianbeerfactory.com


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> it doesn't smoke in either my lawn boy or my trimmer


Damm , ok get back to me when you find a cheap caster based oil that smokes like Ultra , but does not smell like Ultra !


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## Tomos770 (Jan 25, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> According to the BITOG forum....Super tech is product of Waren oil or even Citygo oil company..and is trusted/good oil!








Who makes Canadian Supertech?


Does Safety Kleen still make the Canadian version of Supertech oils? (they did back in 2009, we know this) I ask this because starting tomorrow Walmart in Canada is selling Supertech synthetic for only $17.47 for 5L jugs, and that has to be the lowest priced synthetic available to us up here (it...



bobistheoilguy.com





And... 





Supertech oil who makes it now


So all I want Mart's in the area have gotten new upgraded looking bottles for their house brand oil also no longer is there w p p on the bottom so who's making it nowadays and how well does it Stack Up? You can buy 5 quarts of full synthetic 0w 20 for around 15 16 buck just wanted to make sure...



bobistheoilguy.com


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

@room temperature.....pffffft!!! 









Chimay Blue (Grande Reserve) - 33cl - Buy beer online


Chimay Blue (Grande Reserve) 33cl - Buy your Blue Beer and matching beer glass in this online shop. This Belgian beer is brewed by Scourmont Abbey.




www.belgianbeerfactory.com




Belgian ...interesting ....room temp , ...sorry !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Damm , ok get back to me when you find a cheap caster based oil that smokes like Ultra , but does not smell like Ultra !


Bel Ray Si7 smells exactly like stihl ultra!! and smokes.


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> @room temperature.....pffffft!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Guinness for me!


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Bel Ray Si7 smells exactly like stihl ultra!! and smokes.


Heck that would deter the mosquito population , and any visitors , let me ponder this further !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Heck that would deter the mosquito population , and any visitors , let me ponder this further !


It smells like a burning bar of soap.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> It smells like a burning bar of soap.


nah , have burn out enough chassis bushings lubricated with lithium based grease (soap byproduct) yuck , disgusting !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> nah , have burn out enough chassis bushings lubricated with lithium based grease (soap byproduct) yuck , disgusting !


Here is 700 hr + string trimmer after two years of supertech 32:1


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Here is 700 hr + string trimmer after two years of supertech 32:1
> View attachment 959487


Let's see the ring area.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Let's see the ring area.


Yeah are the ring lands reasonable ?


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Let's see the ring area.


It's a little cold out right now otherwise i would go pull the muffler and get a picture compression is still 140 lbs.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> It's a little cold out right now otherwise i would go pull the muffler and get a picture compression is still 140 lbs.


Likely not that bad , it a reasonable oil for trimmer usage , Shell here in Canada , took it over from Citgo / Warren ? within Canadian Distribution !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Let's see the ring area.





Broken said:


> Yeah are the ring lands reasonable ?





Broken said:


> Likely not that bad , it a reasonable oil for trimmer usage , Shell here in Canada , took it over from Citgo / Warren within Canadian Distribution !


Ok i braved the cold and got a pic it was dark and hard to see.


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

I post and they go off line.


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## ladnar (Jan 25, 2022)

Well i'm done reading all 46 pages of this thread/debate and some rudeness, to me it's all good, I have used Husky orange bottle, Opti-2 (many years in trimmers) and you know I thought Stihl being a top line company they must have good oil (HP Ultra) which is what I have been using for a few years now, in everything. I know nothing about all the ratings and additives you all talk about. But my little Stihl 180C, (2015) with only a single tuning screw on the carb, would not get to full rpm, always seemed rich and smoky, I was running it at 55:1 (HP Ultra). So as I read on here and since I have purchased an Echo CS-310, CS-590, CS-620. I recently decided to get some Red Armor. Mixed it at 50:1, dumped the old gas (prem. non-eth w/sta-bil) put in the red armor gas/oil fired up the MS-180 it right up as always, within a few seconds it was screaming like never before, can't believe oil would make the difference. I also put a 14" bar and 3613 005 050 Stihl (yellow) chain. I'm done Stihl Ultra, I still have some opti-2 from years ago may try it again. Love you guys and this forum, great info, Thank you.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Ok i braved the cold and got a pic it was dark and hard to see.
> View attachment 959490
> 
> View attachment 959491


Your a trooper youngin , Nice !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Your a trooper youngin , Nice !


Trimmer is a Efco DS 2210S made by Emak.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Trimmer is a Efco DS 2210S made by Emak.


Had a Efco saw , think I mentioned that previously , Italian Manufacturer , distribution sucked. , dealers got screwed over bad . Quality saws for the buck !


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Had a Efco saw , think I mentioned that previously , Italian Manufacturer , distribution sucked. , dealers got screwed over bad . Quality saws for the buck !


Parts has been a issue i screwed up the shaft on mine last year so now it wears a husqvarna 223L shaft along with 1/4 flex cable and gear box. Works fine too i did replace the oem fuel line this year with stihl brand fuel line since the factory line shrunk and was causing a fuel leak.


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Ok i braved the cold and got a pic it was dark and hard to see.
> View attachment 959490
> 
> View attachment 959491


Not bad at all.


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Likely not that bad , it a reasonable oil for trimmer usage , Shell here in Canada , took it over from Citgo / Warren within Canadian Distribution !


I don't think Citgo ever made oil for Wally World. In the US it was always made by Warren.
Citgo does make great two cycle oils.
You ever tried Esso air cooled oil. I ran it in my saws when I lived outside of Kenora and it seemed to work well.


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## bwalker (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> All Canadian Oils perform well , you know better than that silly ! To answer your question Super Tech was available at Kmart & Sentry back in the day & also Wally World via Shell Canada . Esso is another quality product , were previously a associate of Exxon oil I believe ?


Still believe they are under the Exxon- Mobil banner.


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## jellyroll (Jan 25, 2022)

Broken said:


> Scott @ the Chainsawr site might have parts , like I said the National distributors really hamstrung their dealerships . Cats breakfast across the board , much like Solo line up .


My problem was the 6 month back order because of covid so i had to mend and make do. That shaft is $50 if available and this husqvarna part was in the junk stash so i will save my money since the trimmer is getting traded off for a new unit soon.


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## Pioneer (Jan 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> When Inwas very young my dad had a 500cc Centurian


Had one of those myself, really liked it, had a great engine. Very reliable, easy on belts, all around quality machine. The previous owner used OMC, and that's what I used. Never had a bit of trouble with it, still ran strong when I sold it. Back in the '70s OMC and Merc oil where the go to oils for watercraft/liquid cooled 2 stroke. Oil related engine failure of outboards were uncommon back then, but they are easier on oil than air cooled engines as far as operating temperatures go. Wouldn't think of using it in a chainsaw (it's a full can) but I have an old 18 HP Johnson that could use it.


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Pioneer said:


> Had one of those myself, really liked it, had a great engine. Very reliable, easy on belts, all around quality machine. The previous owner used OMC, and that's what I used. Never had a bit of trouble with it, still ran strong when I sold it. Back in the '70s OMC and Merc oil where the go to oils for watercraft/liquid cooled 2 stroke. Oil related engine failure of outboards were uncommon back then, but they are easier on oil than air cooled engines as far as operating temperatures go. Wouldn't think of using it in a chainsaw (it's a full can) but I have an old 18 HP Johnson that could use it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 959548


No different than lawn boy oil which i use in my old johnson outboard.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Still believe they are under the Exxon- Mobil banner.


Very well might be , never really check between the cracks & crevices Ben ! P.S. Where around Kenora was your fishing outpost , Lake of the Woods area . I hunted around Sleeman , WMU 7-A & B & 10-A . Mucho Grande Venison on the hoof Amigo's !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> someone used vegetable oil and damaged the seal on the clutch side


Ester based synthetics can also contribute to seal swelling & deformation , most if not all 2nd generation premium oil manufacturers have added additives or blended with PAO to resolve this issue .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> No different than lawn boy oil which i use in my old johnson outboard.


Speaking of old oil technologies , anyone remember Wynn's 2T Racing Formula oil 1970's vintage , had to be the sweetest smelling oil south of Nitro methane aroma !


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## bwalker (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Very well might be , never really check between the cracks & crevices Ben ! P.S. Where around Kenora was your fishing outpost , Lake of the Woods area . I hunted around Sleeman , WMU 7-A & B & 10-A . Mucho Grande Venison on the hoof Amigo's !


East Hawk Lake. Between Kenora and Vermillion Bay. The deer hunting was very good in that area the first few years I was up there, but dropped off precipitously once word got out.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 26, 2022)

vegetable oil for rapeseed or sunflower chain / it becomes glue and spoils the sealant


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 26, 2022)

if someone uses the right oil then the first one breaks the flywheel seal because it is drier


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

bwalker said:


> East Hawk Lake. Between Kenora and Vermillion Bay. The deer hunting was very good in that area the first few years I was up there, but dropped off precipitously once word got out.


Yeah , deer grazing like dairy cows when I hunted up that way. The last I heard road kills were getting atrocious. Beautiful area none the less


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## CJ1 (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Your a man after my own heart CJ . I,am a little long in the tooth , spent the majority of my early teens in the Amateur Class , racing air cooled MX & Enduro's in the summer & Super stock & Factory Mod sleds in the winter in the late 60's to early 70's . Eventually dropped the cycle competition to devote more time to the sled racing dynamics , Oval Sprint / Enduro - Cross Country / Drag . The 70's were quite a turbulent & exciting time in 2 cycle oil & engine design . Air cooled engines were refined into multi cylinder applications until horsepower levels peaked to a critical path , requiring more consistent temperature control to achieve anymore reliable horsepower , liquid cooling was engineered into the mix . I did quite well as an independent racer of Arctic Cat & Yamaha , so well that in 1975 the local distributor for Polaris approached me with a full sponsorship . I agreed and spent 2 yrs travelling throughout North America Competing , Kawartha Cup in Peterborough Ontario for our National Championships , Eagle River Wisconsin for USSRA Championship , along with stops various other International Series Sprint & Endurance Race Series . Initially Quaker State & Shell were the Primary Series Oil Sponsors with Bel-Ray , Opti2 & Klotz as Associate Series Sponsors . I have used all above noted Oil Manufacturer products with great success in both Cycles & Sleds . Usually in Premix ratios of 40:1 in the MX Class Cycles & Air Cooled Class Sleds & 50:1 in the Enduro Class Cycles & Liquid Cooled Sleds . Also within saws at the same ratios but not the same predictable results ! lol. Later on the Oil technology again fell behind , when the Higher horsepower sleds needed more refined protection than the current Mineral based oils could deliver . Thus the niche was made for Blended Castor based oils in the 80' s , these blended castor oils allowed maximum engine failure protection , with reasonable teardown schedules for carbon fouling prevention . I did well enough eventually to achieve a full independent factory ride , a 650 TX Starfire Centurian Triple Free-air with Polaris for the 1978/79 season . Bob Eastman & Leroy Linblad had retired from active drivers , & Steve Thorson , Jerry Bunke & Brad Hulings from Mercury fame were hired on . Bob & Leroy continued on as Race Directors & Engineers respectively . I learned a lot from Leroy on chassis & suspension / track set up . Bob was great at Engine Design & Reliability Testing Protocols . I really was impressed with their devotion to oil testing perimeters , that I expanded it to my cycles in the off season . Anyhow your testimonials within your engine manufacturers & oil applications rings true to fact . I fondly recall my days in the sun with my 1970 Hondaka Super Rat , 1971 KX-350 Big-horn , 1972 Cz-250 MX & later 1977 Husky-390 & 1978 Can-Am 370 qualifier , which actually still own . I currently have run Dominator in the Can-Am , switched to Interceptor in Sept. My current 2 sleds Polaris 700 SKS Trail Sled with a reworked Liberty Engine sans power valves , have ran it at 50:1 with Interceptor or with 100:1 Saber premix added during injector system use . My other sled is a Polaris 850 Patriot RMK Mountain Sled with power valves , both sleds have numerous performance hours with no issues . Thanks for your input I concurr with your rational & findings brother & the memories ! . P.S. R.I.P. Jim Adema , a personal friend from Belmont Michigan , who taught me porting 101 a fellow independent racer , Snow-Jet "Thunder-Jet pilot , until his death at Ironwood Michigan in 1975 , incredible engineer & human being


Small world! I was there with a friend around 1988ish. Was helping Felski farms and Paul Buckler for awhile. We would get parts from pro 5 and I believe Larry R was there at pro5 or even owned it. They gave us alot of help with the Polaris racing program. I was running drags at the time in stock [cough cough] and improved stock. Had a blast and miss them days. Now I just piss money away with BBC's and drag racing. Where are you located in CA? We have cabins in Blind River area.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> Small world! I was there with a friend around 1988ish. Was helping Felski farms and Paul Buckler for awhile. We would get parts from pro 5 and I believe Larry R was there at pro5 or even owned it. They gave us alot of help with the Polaris racing program. I was running drags at the time in stock [cough cough] and improved stock. Had a blast and miss them days. Now I just piss money away with BBC's and drag racing. Where are you located in CA? We have cabins in Blind River area.


Yep the good ole days fun times , I remember 1974 at Alexandria Minnesota " Dayco Cup Championships !" Don Omadahl , Larry & Wes Pesak having a cigar smoking contest , Larry won , Donnie turned green lol . I almost never got the call from Polaris , when Leroy & Larry left for Bombardier in 76 with Yvon Durhamel & Mike Trap . Only lasted a year and both came back to Blue . I ran the last yr of my Contract on Donnies old RXL -340 Sno Pro Sled , after he got hurt in an after hours bar altercation lol. Then Jerry Bunke died in a late race freak altercation with Steve Thorson at the Toboggan Championships in March . Larry had a set back a few yrs back he was 2nd in charge @ Pro-5 , Burt Bassett was the principle owner in Roseau Minnesota . Illness caused Larry to move back home to Wisconsin & so has cut back a little at JRM due to these health reasons , probably cigar related lol . Still making performance clutch & pipe products in Menominee I believe . Yeah , small world , I hunt North of Blind River , Chapleau area for Moose . Have a hunting / fishing camp there . Play with the sleds with the Grand Kids , who are still trying to pass Grampa ! Cheers Brother.


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yep the good ole days fun times , I remember 1974 at Alexandria Minnesota " Dayco Cup Championships !" Don Omadahl , Larry & Wes Pesak having a cigar smoking contest , Larry won , Donnie turned green lol . I almost never got the call from Polaris , when Leroy & Larry left for Bombardier in 76 with Yvon Durhamel & Mike Trap . Only lasted a year and both came back to Blue . I ran the last yr of my Contract on Donnies old RXL -340 Sno Pro Sled , after he got hurt in an after hours bar altercation lol. Then Jerry Bunke died in a late race freak altercation with Steve Thorson at the Toboggan Championships in March . Larry had a set back a few yrs back , so has cut back a little at JRM due to health reasons , probably cigar related lol . Still making performance clutch & pipe products in Wisconsin I believe . Yeah , small world , I hunt North of Blind River , Chapleau area for Moose . Have a hunting / fishing camp there . Play with the sleds with the Grand Kids , who are still trying to pass Grampa ! Cheers Brother.


Been thinking of mixing up some non detergent sae 30 at 16:1 and see how long that echo will last till it carbon fouls the rings. 
Sure it would kill the mosquitos.


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## link (Jan 26, 2022)

I like the ones that says "super extra rallye GT".


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Been thinking of mixing up some non detergent sae 30 at 16:1 and see how long that echo will last till it carbon fouls the rings.
> Sure it would kill the mosquitos.


Actually it may surprise you , if you tune it accordingly (tad richer fuel to air ) with a proper heat range plug upgrade , i think it might be is keeper !


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Actually it may surprise you , if you tune it accordingly (tad richer fuel to air ) with a proper heat range plug upgrade , i think it might be is keeper !


Factory plug is a NGK BPMR8Y.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Factory plug is a NGK BPMR8Y.


One heat range hotter bpmr7a


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## link (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> One heat range hotter bpmr7a


So whats the Bosh that sits in the Sthil saws at my workbench?


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

t.k said:


> So whats the Bosh that sits in the Sthil saws at my workbench?


WSR6F


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> German technology , quality plugs !


Green Bosch = Good
Blue Bosch = China which is ok.


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> North American or Country of Manufacture only , no offshore 3rd world junk !


All bosch plugs sold at the dealer here at made in china. I use Mexico or USA built champions, autolites


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> You don't buy @ Local Ethical Auto Supply Stores ?


I buy for the auto parts store but i take what i can get german plugs are a special order item and any other brand will do.


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## bwalker (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Actually it may surprise you , if you tune it accordingly (tad richer fuel to air ) with a proper heat range plug upgrade , i think it might be is keeper !


Spark plug heat range has nothing to do with how hot or clean the plug runs it just is a measure of how hot the electrodes get. As such it still won't stay clean on SAE 30 motor oil. All the mettalic compounds in motor oil are hard on spark plugs.


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## ladnar (Jan 26, 2022)

Well I haven't seen very much talk about Opti-2, does anyone still use it? Do you like it? In the 80's I used a lot of it, I didn't know anything at the time about mix ratio's (I knew 50:1 for my Evinrude) by my chainsaws, weed whackers I just squeezed the packet of Opti-2 into a gallon of regular gas and went with it, always worked fine.
Didn't know 1.8 oz to gallon was 71:1! So found a couple packages in my stuff, mixed up a packet (of opti) with 112 oz. of clear premium (92 oct.) makes it 62:1. anxious to try it. Especially when I get my new senix 4-stroke will use it for the first tank.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

The lower the numerical value of the plug designation denotes a hotter plug for NGK / Denso & Champion , only Bosch is reversed Ben ! Therefore the NGK BPM-R7A is the recommended hotter plug for Original NGK 8 designated plug as I stated . As for it not being a better choice within preventing deposit formation or maintaining optimal performance with a enrichened fuel ratio , your also incorrect . The actual reason for higher heat ranges is to maintain proper electrode tip temperatures that can be compromised by an excess of fuel charge or oil & residue which most likely would be the result in this dirty Echo application as recommended to J in this proposed trial ! I don't understand your resistance to common sense . P.S. This plug heat range selection decision tree has been utilized effectively within 2 stroke engines for yrs. Hotter plugs for Enduro riding & Colder plugs in MX riding . Copper cores for this Platinium or Irridium for that . P.S. I ran a 1966 Skidoo 10.5 Rotax powered sled as a kid , running Castrol Non Detergent Sae.30 @ 16:1 for 10 yrs . Only had 2 original Bosch plugs (tungsten) core , when one fouled due to oil or bad points , you took it out cleaned it replaced with the 2nd spark plug . This went on for 10 yrs . Also one of the plugs was one range colder for riding in the spring & the other for riding in the primary colder winter weather , rather simplistic rational that takes into considerations atmospheric temperatures & barometric pressure & relative fuel & air density changes that a single plug must perform within seasonal variations of ambient temperatures & thermal internal engine temperature changes affected by riding styles ..Cheers !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 26, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Well I haven't seen very much talk about Opti-2, does anyone still use it? Do you like it? In the 80's I used a lot of it, I didn't know anything at the time about mix ratio's (I knew 50:1 for my Evinrude) by my chainsaws, weed whackers I just squeezed the packet of Opti-2 into a gallon of regular gas and went with it, always worked fine.
> Didn't know 1.8 oz to gallon was 71:1! So found a couple packages in my stuff, mixed up a packet (of opti) with 112 oz. of clear premium (92 oct.) makes it 62:1. anxious to try it. Especially when I get my new senix 4-stroke will use it for the first tank.


Opti-2 has been discussed numerous times within it's physical & chemical properties in this thread mate , some people love it , some people believe like Amsoil Saber that its snake oil . Personally I have used it within snowmobiles , motor cycles & saws quite successfully between 40:1 to 80:1 ratio's with proper tuning to usage . I would not recommend it in an outboard service & Definately not in a 4-Cycle application , perhaps in a controlled substitute for Stihl Ultra in a 4-Mix application brother !


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## bwalker (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> The lower the numerical value of the plug designation denotes a hotter plug for NGK / Denso & Champion , only Bosch is reversed Ben ! Therefore the NGK BPM-R7A is the recommended hotter plug for Original NGK 8 designated plug as I stated . As for it not being a better choice within preventing deposit formation or maintaining optimal performance with a enrichened fuel ratio , your also incorrect . The actual reason for higher heat ranges is to maintain proper electrode tip temperatures that can be compromised by an excess of fuel charge or oil & residue which most likely would be the result in this dirty Echo application as recommended to J in this proposed trial ! I don't understand your resistance to common sense . P.S. This plug heat range selection decision tree has been utilized effectively within 2 stroke engines for yrs. Hotter plugs for Enduro riding & Colder plugs in MX riding . Copper cores for this Platinium or Irridium for that . P.S. I ran a 1966 Skidoo 10.5 Rotax powered sled as a kid , running Castrol Non Detergent @ 16:1 for 10 yrs . Only had 2 original plugs Bosch plugs , when one fouled due to oil or bad points , you took it out replaced with the 2nd spark . This went on for 10 yrs . Also one of the plugs was one range colder for riding in the spring & the other for riding in the primary colder winter weather , rather simplistic rational that takes into considerations atmospheric temperatures & barometric pressure & relative fuel & air density changes that a single plug must perform within ..Cheers !


Yes, that's correct. I thought you were trying to say the opposite.
I can say for certain that you can go several heat ranges hotter and not notice an less buildup on the nose of a plug.


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## ladnar (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Opti-2 has been discussed numerous times within it's physical & chemical properties in this thread mate , some people love it , some people believe like Amsoil Saber that its snake oil . Personally I have used it within snowmobiles , motor cycles & saws quite successfully between 40:1 to 80:1 ratio's with proper tuning to usage . I would not recommend it in an outboard service & Definately not in a 4-Cycle application , perhaps in a controlled substitute for Stihl Ultra in a 4-Mix application brother !


Thank you.


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## Ronaldo (Jan 26, 2022)

I've used Opti 2 for 15 plus yrs at 40 to 1. Been really satisfied.

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


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## bwalker (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> Opti-2 has been discussed numerous times within it's physical & chemical properties in this thread mate , some people love it , some people believe like Amsoil Saber that its snake oil . Personally I have used it within snowmobiles , motor cycles & saws quite successfully between 40:1 to 80:1 ratio's with proper tuning to usage . I would not recommend it in an outboard service & Definately not in a 4-Cycle application , perhaps in a controlled substitute for Stihl Ultra in a 4-Mix application brother !


The early 80's called. They want their oil back.
Why some think it's advantageous to run lean oil to fuel ratios is beyond me.


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Well I haven't seen very much talk about Opti-2, does anyone still use it? Do you like it? In the 80's I used a lot of it, I didn't know anything at the time about mix ratio's (I knew 50:1 for my Evinrude) by my chainsaws, weed whackers I just squeezed the packet of Opti-2 into a gallon of regular gas and went with it, always worked fine.
> Didn't know 1.8 oz to gallon was 71:1! So found a couple packages in my stuff, mixed up a packet (of opti) with 112 oz. of clear premium (92 oct.) makes it 62:1. anxious to try it. Especially when I get my new senix 4-stroke will use it for the first tank.


Opti 2 is good stuff in my opinion i just have a hard time finding it locally.


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## jellyroll (Jan 26, 2022)

Broken said:


> One heat range hotter bpmr7a


Been using the 2974 autolite in its place and for 1.49 it does a fine job.


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## KASH (Jan 26, 2022)

Champion plugs higher the number hotter the heat range.
Kash


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

Ronaldo said:


> I've used Opti 2 for 15 plus yrs at 40 to 1. Been really satisfied.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


I never have mixed it that heavy . 50:1 in my 1967 Pioneer 11-60 is about it . However in a milling application I bet it would perform really well. Unfortunately when our local Pioneer Dealership shut down I never found Opti2 products anywhere. If I may ask what are you using the Opti2 in currently .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Thank you.


No problem brother happy to oblige !


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## Ronaldo (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> I never have mixed it that heavy . 50:1 in my 1967 Pioneer 11-60 is about it . However in a milling application I bet it would perform really well. Unfortunately when our local Pioneer Dealership shut down I never found Opti2 products anywhere. If I may ask what are you using the Opti2 in currently .


Using it in a Husqvarna 555 autotune, 371XP, Jonsered 2152, 2252 autotune and a Dolmar 5105H.

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

Ronaldo said:


> Using it in a Husqvarna 555 autotune, 371XP, Jonsered 2152, 2252 autotune and a Dolmar 5105H.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


Cool , nice collection of fine saws . I currently have Husquarna 346 xp & woods ported 357 xp along with Dolmar 5105H & 7910 HD runin Saber @ 44:1 . Very similar to the Opti2 in performance , may have to order a bottle once my trials with Dominator & Interceptor on my rebuilt Homelite test saw is done . I never go with manufacturers hype but rather test in real world conditions , has never let me down in various engine applications over 50 yrs !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

KASH said:


> Champion plugs higher the number hotter the heat range.
> Kash


Thanks Kash , I read my chart here incorrectly lol , I read Champion RN 18/19 Hot & RN 52 / 53 Colder , old automotive conversion chart on the wall . I took out my current 2T plug conversion manual and your absolutely correct , unfortunately I have never bought Champion plugs , all my equipment has had OEM NGK , Denso or Bosch products . Anyhow thank you for the correction brother ! How's the weather (snow) in the North West ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I buy for the auto parts store but i take what i can get german plugs are a special order item and any other brand will do.


German plugs were , are & will remain the finest spark plugs in the world in real world applications , anyone who use Autolite , A.C Delco , Champion are ill informed . Also buying cheap offshore knock offs at Wally World or Home Depot etc are fools , sure the price is cheap , so is the product . I have repaired more trimmers , snowblower , chainsaws snowmobiles & cycles due to bad (defective) plugs in the last 10 yrs then bad fuel or poor maintenance . Simply because the operator had to save a few $$ on plugs !


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> I never have mixed it that heavy . 50:1 in my 1967 Pioneer 11-60 is about it . However in a milling application I bet it would perform really well. Unfortunately when our local Pioneer Dealership shut down I never found Opti2 products anywhere. If I may ask what are you using the Opti2 in currently .


Opti 2 can found relabeled under the following Oregon only one and US2 brand. a local farm store here in the states called TSC has pillow packs of US2 which is opti product for .50 cents per pillow pack on clearance during the winter months.


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> German plugs were , are & will remain the finest spark plugs in the world in real world applications , anyone who use Autolite , A.C Delco , Champion are ill informed . Also buying cheap offshore knock offs at Wally World or Home Depot etc are fouls , sure the price is cheap , so is the product . I have repaired more trimmers , snowblower , chainsaws snowmobiles & cycles due to bad (defective) plugs in the last 10 yrs then bad fuel or poor maintenance . Simply because the operator had to save a few $$ on plugs !


E3 sparkplugs are garbage compared to champion or autolite. I currently got autolite in everything i own and it does a fine job and i have not had any issues


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Cool , nice collection of fine saws . I currently have Husquarna 346 xp & woods ported 357 xp along with Dolmar 5105H & 7910 HD runin Saber @ 44:1 . Very similar to the Opti2 in performance , may have to order a bottle once my trials with Dominator & Interceptor on my rebuilt Homelite test saw is done . I never go with manufacturers hype but rather test in real world conditions , has never let me down in various engine applications over 50 yrs !


I got a echo cs 306 and a stihl 024 avs for all my firewood duties i run supertech oil in them with 87 ethanol free at 32:1


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, that's correct. I thought you were trying to say the opposite.
> I can say for certain that you can go several heat ranges hotter and not notice an less buildup on the nose of a plug.


In Racing applications Ben , 2 to 3 ranges hotter is often required , also the opposite depending on engine dynamics & current ambient temperatures . This is real world engine tuning criteria brother , nothing surprising or unusual . I think you should really stop assuming , its reflecting back upon you dude . Anyhow in 1975 at the Soo 1-500 the Race Started earlier than normal 9:00 am , due to lake effect snow forcasted. Ambient temp -30 f & sunny , by noon the temp had risen to 27 f & partly cloudy . By 2:00 pm it was 38 f & overcast . There were several race stoppages due to whiteouts requiring track clearing & watering due to the old 500 mile duration rather than the current 500 kilometers . Anyhow , everyone was using a caster blend oil & Sunoco -260 race fuel . Obviously spark plugs took a beating , we switched from 3 ranges hotter at the start to normal factory spec's plug @ noon to 3 heat ranges cooler @ 2:00 pm . Eventually even had to re- synchronize our 3 mikuni's in the 650 factory Fugi3 to compensate for the barometric pressure changes during this 8 hr race duration . Never had a carbon deposits or bridged plug throughout the entire race because of proper heat range plug application , even while using a caster based oil . Why because our Race Engineers cold read a spark plug & engine condition in a heartbeat & make critical decisions prior to any catastrophic failures . So in closing yes , in Racing or during Recreational riding on my 70's RD-350 twin or H1 500 or H2 750 triples , effective heat range selection prevents plug performance degradation due to fouling from excessive deposit formation . It's been this way forever , nothing new brother !


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> In Racing applications Ben 2 to 3 ranges hotter is often required , also the opposite depending on engine dynamics & ambient temperatures occurred . This is real world engine tuning criteria brother . I think you should really stop assuming , its reflecting back upon you dude . Anyhow in 1975 at the Soo 1-500 the Race Started earlier than normal 9:00 am due to lake effect snow forcasted. Ambient temp -30 f & sunny , by noon the temp had risen to 27 f & partly cloudy . By 2:00 pm it was 38 f & overcast . There were several race stoppages due to whiteouts requiring track clearing & watering due to the old 500 mile duration rather than the current 500 kilometers . Anyhow , everyone was using a caster blend oil & Sunoco -260 race fuel . Obviously spark plugs took a beating , we switched from 3 ranges hotter at the start to normal factory spec's plug @ noon to 3 heat ranges cooler @ 2:00 pm . Eventually even had to re- synchronize our 3 mikuni's in the Fugi3 to compensate for the barometric pressure changes during this 8 hr race duration . Never had a carbon or bridged plug throughout the entire race because of proper heat range plug application , even while using a caster based oil . Why because our Race Engineers cold read a spark plug & engine condition in a heartbeat & make critical decisions prior to any catastrophic failures . So in closing yes , in Racing or during Recreational riding on my 70's RD-350 twin or H1 500 or H2 750 triples , effective heat range selection prevents plug performance degradation due to fouling from excessive deposit formation . It's been this way forever , nothing new brother !


I'm not speculating. My race sled had a data logger with CHT, EGT, etc. I did alot of testing, monitoring of temps and visual appearance.
Also did the same in MX bikes.
I also used projected tip plugs if the head design would allow it. You could run a much higher heat range plug and actually have the plug run cooler and stay cleaner. For example I ran a BPR6ES is a cr500 instead of the stock BR8Es. And those big bores are really sensitive to hotter plugs given the large bore.
It should be noted I was doing this 20+ years after you were. Technology and our understanding changed over that time.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 27, 2022)

Still runnin ngk in anything I need new plugs in. You boys still like them or have they become less reliable ? Had pretty good luck w them over the years


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## jakethesnake (Jan 27, 2022)

Did have a new one fail me in a 4 cylinder 4 stroke outboard


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Still runnin ngk in anything I need new plugs in. You boys still like them or have they become less reliable ? Had pretty good luck w them over the years


I've always used NGK exclusively bought from Napa and have never had an issue. I did use Champions for a time in Polaris Snomobiles, but always thought they were lower quality and less reliable.
Have to watch out for Chi Com knock offs now days.


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## ladnar (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Opti 2 can found relabeled under the following Oregon only one and US2 brand. a local farm store here in the states called TSC has pillow packs of US2 which is opti product for .50 cents per pillow pack on clearance during the winter months.


Opti-2 is also available on Amazon.


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## Ronaldo (Jan 27, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Opti-2 is also available on Amazon.


It is. I buy it in a gallon container. Takes me a bit to use that much but it works for me.

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I'm not speculating. My race sled had a data logger with CHT, EGT, etc. I did alot of testing, monitoring of temps and visual appearance.
> Also did the same in MX bikes.
> I also used projected tip plugs if the head design would allow it. You could run a much higher heat range plug and actually have the plug run cooler and stay cleaner. For example I ran a BPR6ES is a cr500 instead of the stock BR8Es. And those big bores are really sensitive to hotter plugs given the large bore.
> It should be noted I was doing this 20+ years after you were. Technology and our understanding changed over that time.


I have a data logger on my Harley Dyna-Glide as I type this . We just did two pulls on my buddies Dyno to get some Real Time Peak Horsepower & Torgue reading comparisions after installing a new Andrews AV-13 Cam upgrade. Just a little more duration & lift over the oem cam . I purchased the cycle last Nov on my birthday , a week later I installed some Arlen Ness 2" straight shots & Predator Air extractor system . I replaced Screamin Eagle plugs for Bosch Iridium plugs & sold the after market Screamin Eagle Pipes that came on the bike for quick turn around on the new Cam . Initially I picked up 8% more peak horsepower & 10 % more net torgue . After the new Cam I improved to a 20 % improvement in Peak Horse power 30 % improvement in net torgue off idle to 5000 max rpm range . P.S. I picked up this 1998 EVO engined cycle (23,000 original mi.) for a Divorce forced sale of $4000 . I have had offers of $8000 for the bike prior to the add on's . I have never been a follower of "a penny wise & a dollar foolish" . I spend up for quality components , not cheap China Clones ! I may pay up to $8 - 13 for spark plugs however I know the origin of manufacturer & they perform well & last their intended life cycle . Any how yeah we raced in different generations . I only practiced on Steve Thorson & Brad Hulings Liquid Cooled RXL-650 Liberty Engine Sno-Pro sleds @ Peterbourgh Dayco Cup in Nov 1979 . Night and day performance curves difference , due to the tighter engine tolerances & thermally maintained internal engine temperatures over the previous Starfire Centurian 650 factory Mod , liquid cooled triple I ran . I think they only altered heat ranges on their Snow Cross sleds after 79 the ice ovals were so well dialed in with tunnel rad's & bulkhead back up heat exchangers . Factory fresh iron really shines on the big ice ovals . Anyhow I'am too long in the tooth to change time proven Methology that still works for me , nothing personal "different strokes for different folks baby " Cheers ! P.S. my new Polaris 850 Patriot Big-Bore Twin RMK has the same reaction to hotter plug testing as your former CR-500 , much larger squish area & much denser fuel charge accordingly , tends to create that sensitivity !


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Opti-2 is also available on Amazon.


Prefer to shop local than buy off amazon plus there is a lot of mark up there and shipping cost.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, that's correct. I thought you were trying to say the opposite.
> I can say for certain that you can go several heat ranges hotter and not notice an less buildup on the nose of a plug.


All depends on how rich the fuel or oil ratio's are Ben. As I said before optimal engine performance can be recognized with proper heat range selection for the riding style , when the fuel to air & fuel to oil ratio's are reasonable to the application brother ! " Seen this & done that " if you know what I mean !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The early 80's called. They want their oil back.
> Why some think it's advantageous to run lean oil to fuel ratios is beyond me.





bwalker said:


> The early 80's called. They want their oil back.
> Why some think it's advantageous to run lean oil to fuel ratios is beyond me.


The same reason Nascar Crew Chiefs & Engine Chiefs spec different Engine oil viscocities & transmission & rear end gear lube viscocities during time trials & actually race conditions .To reduce parasitic drag & gain Peak horsepower & Net Torgue Values ! Engineers earn Mucho Dinaro's creating PERFORMANACE GAINS ! Which includes staying up at nite thinking this crap up brother !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Prefer to shop local than buy off amazon plus there is a lot of mark up there and shipping cost.


Opti2 & Dominator or Interceptor & Saber & numerous other Premium oils Motul etc . are available at various Engine Performance Shops Nation wide . Actually spoke to my buddy with the Dyno Shop to order me some Opti2 , he's going to stock some since he ports saws as a hobby !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> E3 sparkplugs are garbage compared to champion or autolite. I currently got autolite in everything i own and it does a fine job and i have not had any issues


E3 worked fine in my lawn mower when they 1st came out , nothing special better or worse would never use them in any high performance usage though , heard some scary stuff from a few individuals that know their stuff in the automotive field , also the pricing is not competitive any longer I recently heard .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Still runnin ngk in anything I need new plugs in. You boys still like them or have they become less reliable ? Had pretty good luck w them over the years


I have never had a defective or quality control reported NGK or BOSCH Spark plug in over 40 yrs , actually pretty good track record with oem Denso plugs also for some reason lol.


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## Brufab (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Been thinking of mixing up some non detergent sae 30 at 16:1 and see how long that echo will last till it carbon fouls the rings.
> Sure it would kill the mosquitos.


I have a unopened can of remington 16:1 mix from the 60's I would like to try sometime. Maybe I will save it for vintage saw days.


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## Brufab (Jan 27, 2022)

ladnar said:


> Well I haven't seen very much talk about Opti-2, does anyone still use it? Do you like it? In the 80's I used a lot of it, I didn't know anything at the time about mix ratio's (I knew 50:1 for my Evinrude) by my chainsaws, weed whackers I just squeezed the packet of Opti-2 into a gallon of regular gas and went with it, always worked fine.
> Didn't know 1.8 oz to gallon was 71:1! So found a couple packages in my stuff, mixed up a packet (of opti) with 112 oz. of clear premium (92 oct.) makes it 62:1. anxious to try it. Especially when I get my new senix 4-stroke will use it for the first tank.


I have used it for along time but switched to red armor once I bought some new echo saws. I keep a couple of the small 1 gal packs in my car for emergency. I thought I read in the thread that opti 2 was real good oil. But your right 1.8oz to 1 gallon seems crazy.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

Brufab said:


> 24I have a unopened can of remington 16:1 mix from the 60's I would like to try sometime. Maybe I will save it for vintage saw days.





> Don't t put it in one of your pristine Remington's B , only any Poulan you have nearby . I think the homogenous mass has separated , when Mosse's parted the waters Dude !


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> The same reason Nascar Crew Chiefs & Engine Chiefs spec different Engine oil viscocities & transmission & rear end gear lube viscocities during time trials & actually race conditions .To reduce parasitic drag & gain Peak horsepower & Net Torgue Values ! Engineers earn Mucho Dinaro's creating PERFORMANACE GAINS ! Which includes staying up at nite thinking this crap up brother !


Except we know that lean oil to fuel ratios make less power.


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## Brufab (Jan 27, 2022)

Thanks B  I thought that post would get some attention. This thread might as well be a stickie. Almost as many pages as the Remington/mall thread .


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I've always used NGK exclusively bought from Napa and have never had an issue. I did use Champions for a time in Polaris Snomobiles, but always thought they were lower quality and less reliable.
> Have to watch out for Chi Com knock offs now days.


Champion in the Original Starfires , Denso in the Centurians , NGK in the Liberty's & Patriots were & are the plugs of choice to the enlightened !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except we know that lean oil to fuel ratios make less power.


Most Definately Ben in theory , but that's when additives have taken over now as to produce the xtra power without the parasitic drag of xtra oil . Also new ring technology seals the piston off better preventing blow by at extreme temps within higher compression engine today . My buddy who has raced GP bikes with Yvon Durhamel back in the day & I were just discussing the leaner oil ratio benefits within horsepower gains in Vintage GP 2T Bikes e.g.: Kawasaki & Yamaha 70's era bike Series & Talladaga !


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

I tried the NGK cross referenced plug in my lawn boy and it was hard to start and fouled two with in a month but when i put the Champion CJ14 back in it starts right up and it has been going strong on the plug for two years.
Lawn boys don't like NGK plugs.


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

BTW the Champions i have are 30 years old NOS made in the U.S.A so they are much better than the current plugs being built.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I tried the NGK cross referenced plug in my lawn boy and it was hard to start and fouled two with in a month but when i put the Champion CJ14 back in it starts right up and it has been going strong on the plug for two years.
> Lawn boys don't like NGK plugs.


Yeah , something to do with old school engines liking old school technology !  Sorry couldn' t pass it up J !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> BTW the Champions i have are 30 years old NOS made in the U.S.A so they are much better than the current plugs being built.


Yes , they were much a stouter components back in the day all OMC units had them as oem plugs !


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yeah , something to do with old school engines liking old school technology !  Sorry couldn' t pass it up J !


Store said it was a direct cross BM4A is what i used there is a resistor version but i am not sure that wouldn't have been any better.


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Yes , they were much a stouter components back in the day all OMC units had them as oem plugs !


I got a assorted collection of them.


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Most Definately Ben in theory , but that's when additives have taken over now as to produce the xtra power without the parasitic drag of xtra oil . Also new ring technology seals the piston off better preventing blow by at extreme temps within higher compression engine today . My buddy who has raced GP bikes with Yvon Durhamel back in the day & I were just discussing the leaner oil ratio benefits within horsepower gains in Vintage GP 2T Bike e.g.: Kawasaki H-3 & Yamaha YZ4 Racing Series & Tallegaga !


Except no such magic additives exist and piston and ring designs in two cycles haven't changed in a long time. ISO EGD, the most stringent two cycle oil spec is probaly over 20 years old for instance. Two stroke development oil development has been stagnant for years.
Plus no racing form that still uses two cycles and where max HP is an advantage runs high ratios. Karts for instance use really heavy ratios of 16-20:1. Same story for the last GP bikes.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I got a assorted collection of them.


Now you just need an old mag tester !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except no such magic additives exist and piston and ring designs in two cycles haven't changed in a long time. ISO EGD, the most stringent two cycle oil spec is probaly over 20 years old for instance. Two stroke development oil development has been stagnant for years.
> Plus no racing form that still uses two cycles and where max HP is an advantage runs high ratios. Karts for instance use really heavy ratios of 16-20:1. Same story for the last GP bikes.





bwalker said:


> Except no such magic additives exist and piston and ring designs in two cycles haven't changed in a long time. ISO EGD, the most stringent two cycle oil spec is probaly over 20 years old for instance. Two stroke development oil development has been stagnant for years.
> Plus no racing form that still uses two cycles and where max HP is an advantage runs high ratios. Karts for instance use really heavy ratios of 16-20:1. Same story for the last GP bikes.


Ben , seriously you have to start thinking out side the box dude ! #1 never said the additives were within the oil , rather the fuel package . You never heard of secret race fuel additives . It's all about the homogenous fuel / oil package brother ! Actually , apparently Yvons Green Meanie a 1972 H-2R-750 Triple ran a caster based 25:1 oil to special fuel ratio with higher energy capacitor ignition system than production stock . Anyhow my buddy remarked that if they could have run 50:1 or higher how much more horsepower could be achieved with today's L- Ring or Caber composite ring mettalurgy today " especially within dissipating the heat away " from the piston to the cylinder wall to the cooling fins or water jackets . Also the Yamaha TZ-3 750 GP prototypes that Kenny Roberts ran also ran 40:1 caster based race fuel blends due to their liquid cooling . I only road one GP bike , but you can ' t compared to cart technology to GP bikes . The point is that leaner oil ratio's today may be pushing the envelope , but when utilized by the experts in conjunction with today's more stable oil technology , true performance gains are achieved without sacrificing reliability . P.S. Don' t know anything of Recreational Vintage Cycle Sanctioning bodies or Current Series never said I did ...Nada !


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## jellyroll (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ben , seriously you have to start thinking out side the box dude ! #1 never said the additives were within the oil , rather the fuel package . You never heard of secret race fuel additives . It's all about the homogenous fuel / oil package brother ! Actually , apparently Yvons Green Meanie a 1972 TZ-750 Triple ran a caster based 25:1 oil to special fuel ratio with higher energy capacitor ignition system than production stock . Anyhow my buddy remarked that if they could have run 50:1 or higher how much more horsepower could be achieved with today's L- Ring or composite ring mettalurgy today " especially within dissipating the heat away " from the piston to the cylinder wall to the cooling fins or water jackets . Also the Yamaha YZ3 750 GP prototypes that Kenny Roberts ran also ran 40:1 caster based race fuel blends due to their liquid cooling . I only road one GP bike , but you can ' t compared to cart technology to GP bikes . The point is that leaner oil ratio's today may be pushing the envelope , but when utilized by the experts in conjunction with today's more stable oil technology , true performance gains are achieved without sacrificing reliability . P.S. Don' t know anything of Recreational Vintage Cycle Sanctioning bodies or Current Series never said I did ...Nada !


Dang canucks and there fancy scientific speeches!


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## jakethesnake (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> I have never had a defective or quality control reported NGK or BOSCH Spark plug in over 40 yrs , actually pretty good track record with oem Denso plugs also for some reason lol.


Yeah I’ve always liked ngk plugs. Suzuki 4 stroke 70 or 75 horse. Burnt the tip the electrode fires onto off. Didn’t run 10 minutes. Pretty odd. Just a one off. Replaced that one again and never changed the plugs again. Had some trouble with spark plugs in that engine However I’ll blame ngk for one single failed plug. Not close to enough reason to stop using them. I like them very well


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ben , seriously you have to start thinking out side the box dude ! #1 never said the additives were within the oil , rather the fuel package . You never heard of secret race fuel additives . It's all about the homogenous fuel / oil package brother ! Actually , apparently Yvons Green Meanie a 1972 H-2R-750 Triple ran a caster based 25:1 oil to special fuel ratio with higher energy capacitor ignition system than production stock . Anyhow my buddy remarked that if they could have run 50:1 or higher how much more horsepower could be achieved with today's L- Ring or Caber composite ring mettalurgy today " especially within dissipating the heat away " from the piston to the cylinder wall to the cooling fins or water jackets . Also the Yamaha TZ-3 750 GP prototypes that Kenny Roberts ran also ran 40:1 caster based race fuel blends due to their liquid cooling . I only road one GP bike , but you can ' t compared to cart technology to GP bikes . The point is that leaner oil ratio's today may be pushing the envelope , but when utilized by the experts in conjunction with today's more stable oil technology , true performance gains are achieved without sacrificing reliability . P.S. Don' t know anything of Recreational Vintage Cycle Sanctioning bodies or Current Series never said I did ...Nada !


Fuel has improved with things like MTBE, isoprene, etc. These have nothing to do with using less oil in your fuel, which is what we were discussing. It's also of not that pump fuel quality has actually decreased over time given the various RFG requirements on RVP, etc.
And no offense intended but your talking ancient history. Like 4 and a half decades ago. Yea things have changed since then, but very little change in the last 20 or more years. The 100:1 products amsoil sells have been around for decades yet no serious racer uses them at those ratios. Same with Opti. Both are old technology to deal with plug fouling and deposits that existed decades ago that simply are not an issue now. Haven't been an issue since FC and GC came out really.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 27, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Fuel has improved with things like MTBE, isoprene, etc. These have nothing to do with using less oil in your fuel, which is what we were discussing. It's also of not that pump fuel quality has actually decreased over time given the various RFG requirements on RVP, etc.
> And no offense intended but your talking ancient history. Like 4 and a half decades ago. Yea things have changed since then, but very little change in the last 20 or more years. The 100:1 products amsoil sells have been around for decades yet no serious racer uses them at those ratios. Same with Opti. Both are old technology to deal with plug fouling and deposits that existed decades ago that simply are not an issue now. Haven't been an issue since FC and GC came out really.


No offence taken , however your in error again Ben . I was just relating information that was passed on by a very knowledgible engine builder & former Road bike Racer. The gentleman I spoke of owns & operates a Performance Shop . He builds high performance recreational & race 4-cycle & 2-cycle engines . Tests various engines with his in-house dyno . It was he that mentioned the potential performance & reliability of current FC & FD Synthetics @ leaner oil ratio's in comparison to what I refer to as FB mineral oils & bottom shelf FC synthetic oils. That yes , are 4 decades old technology , however light yrs ahead of 7 decade old SAE.30 Non detergent oil ratio's technology @ 16:1 . Again you are in error that throwing more oil into the mix to seal piston rings & provide more energy in the fuel charge is also not ancient thinking & 4 decade old science brother ! Yes Opti2 & Saber were designed to run at leaner ratios to reduce potential plug fouling , today more of a emissions abatement strategy . Anyhow , I think as a Certified Stationary Engineer , I comprehend what my associate said , within the more oil & energy is more than satisfied buy the Race fuel energy efficiency increases today . Less oil in the mix in a properly operating & tuned engine is not necessarily a liability in regards to performance or reliability !


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Broken said:


> No offence taken , however your in error again Ben . I was just relating information that was passed on by a very knowledgible engine builder & former Road bike Racer. The gentleman I spoke of owns & operates a Performance Shop . He builds high performance recreational & race 4-cycle & 2-cycle engines . Tests various engines with his in-house dyno . It was he that mentioned the potential performance & reliability of current FC & FD Synthetics @ leaner oil ratio's in comparison to what I refer to as FB mineral oils & bottom shelf FC synthetic oils. That yes , are 4 decades old technology , however light yrs ahead of 7 decade old SAE.30 Non detergent oil ratio's technology @ 16:1 . Again you are in error that throwing more oil into the mix to seal piston rings & provide more energy in the fuel charge is also not ancient thinking & 4 decade old science brother ! Yes Opti2 & Saber were designed to run at leaner ratios to reduce potential plug fouling , today more of a emissions abatement strategy . Anyhow , I think as a Certified Stationary Engineer , I comprehend what my associate said , within the more oil & energy is more than satisfied buy the Race fuel energy efficiency increases today . Less oil in the mix in a properly operating & tuned engine is not necessarily a liability in regards to performance or reliability !


I am a licensed Operating engineer first class(high pressure) in two states. On top of that I currently work in oil refining.... Yvonne Duhamel if he were still alive would be 80 some years old. Your living in the past and your sources are not that great.
The other thing is I would challenge to name one high performance two cycle that's used L rings that has been produced in the last 30 years.


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## Ronaldo (Jan 27, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Prefer to shop local than buy off amazon plus there is a lot of mark up there and shipping cost.


I prefer to give local businesses my money as well, however, I've not found anyone that carries the Opti-2 in any type of quantity. I get free shipping on my on line orders.

Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


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## bwalker (Jan 27, 2022)

Ronaldo said:


> I prefer to give local businesses my money as well, however, I've not found anyone that carries the Opti-2 in any type of quantity. I get free shipping on my on line orders.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930VL using Tapatalk


Our Ace Hardware has it.


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## KASH (Jan 27, 2022)

Back to spark plugsI in the ancient days of snowmobiling the twin cylinder fan cooled sleds had a tendency to foul the cylinder farthest from the fan.We ran a hotter plug on that side.
Broken thanks for your concern about the weather in my part of the country. We are in a cold snap_37 last nite I went outside and when I stopped for a leak it was so cold I had to pee walking backwards.
Kash


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

My redmax from 2005 has the original Champion RZ7C in it i give it a quick cleaning with solvent and a wire wheel every spring might look into a new one this time since the electrode is no longer sharp and flat at the gap.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Except no such magic additives exist and piston and ring designs in two cycles haven't changed in a long time. ISO EGD, the most stringent two cycle oil spec is probaly over 20 years old for instance. Two stroke development oil development has been stagnant for years.
> Plus no racing form that still uses two cycles and where max HP is an advantage runs high ratios. Karts for instance use really heavy ratios of 16-20:1. Same story for the last GP bikes.


Go cart engines are dinosaur technology , but so are 2T Cycles . That's why they stopped production of 2T dirt bikes for. a few yrs . 2 much oil in the mix , could not pass epa protocols , therefore the leaner oil ratio trending . I hear that one major manufacturer (KTM) has brought back a new 2T version for the MX Open Class to compete against the 4 cycles . Anyhow do not follow dirt bike action much anymore !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Yeah I’ve always liked ngk plugs. Suzuki 4 stroke 70 or 75 horse. Burnt the tip the electrode fires onto off. Didn’t run 10 minutes. Pretty odd. Just a one off. Replaced that one again and never changed the plugs again. Had some trouble with spark plugs in that engine However I’ll blame ngk for one single failed plug. Not close to enough reason to stop using them. I like them very well


I ran a Evinrude V-4 90 hp outboard for 10 yrs on Spectro , a marine grade oil very similar to Opti2 . The engine was rated for 32:1 in the late 70's . I ran it at 70:1 idled for hrs & ran wot , never a miss & optimal plug coloration . Once the Spectro was discontinued I went to Amsoil Marine Injector / Premix oil @ same ratio for another 10 ys . All this run time on NGK plugs that replaced the OEM Champions in 1980 . Sold the boat & motor 2001 to a buddy . He still has it today on a different boat lol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

KASH said:


> Back to spark plugsI in the ancient days of snowmobiling the twin cylinder fan cooled sleds had a tendency to foul the cylinder farthest from the fan.We ran a hotter plug on that side.
> Broken thanks for your concern about the weather in my part of the country. We are in a cold snap_37 last nite I went outside and when I stopped for a leak it was so cold I had to pee walking backwards.
> Kash


That's cold ! Yeah a lot of plug fouling issues with early generation Premix oils , even once actual 2T oils hit the market . We always ran different heat range on the pto side on Air cooled twins & on Air cooled triples the centre cylinder ran 2 ranges colder & 1 range colder on the liquids . My current Polaris 700 & 850 liquid twins run so consistent that stock plug spec are optimal unless high elevation powder riding then perhaps 1 range colder , even with new aftermarket tuned pipes & can !


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> I ran a Evinrude V-4 90 hp outboard for 10 yrs on Spectro , a marine grade oil very similar to Opti2 . The engine was rated for 32:1 in the late 70's . I ran it at 70:1 idled for hrs & ran wot , never a miss & optimal plug coloration . Once the Spectro was discontinued I went to Amsoil Marine Injector / Premix oil @ same ratio for another 10 ys . All this run time on NGK plugs that replaced the OEM Champions in 1980 . Sold the boat & motor 2001 to a buddy . He still has it today on a different boat lol.


Much prefer my current outboard it holds 18 ounces of 25w40 in the crankcase and i use a external tank for it. that 5 hp will run all day on 2 gallons.
Just a basic air cooled briggs outboard


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Much prefer my current outboard it holds 18 ounces of 25w40 in the crankcase and i use a external tank for it. that 5 hp will run all day on 2 gallons.
> Just a basic air cooled briggs outboard


Hope you wear your hearing protection !


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Hope you wear your hearing protection !


mine has the exhaust pipe going into the water .


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Go cart engines are dinosaur technology , but so are 2T Cycles . That's why they stopped production of 2T dirt bikes for. a few yrs . 2 much oil in the mix , could not pass epa protocols , therefore the leaner oil ratio trending . I hear that one major manufacturer (KTM) has brought back a new 2T version for the MX Open Class to compete against the 4 cycles . Anyhow do not follow dirt bike action much anymore !


Why two strokes cant pass emmissions standards has nothing to do with burning oil. It's all about unburnt charge escaping to the exhaust during the scavenging process. Has nothing to do with oil.
KART engines can be pretty advanced. Shifter carts use the latest 125 mx bike engines for instance and they're are many European makes that produce state of the art kart motors now.
KTM has solved this issue with transfer port injection. Yamaha two strokes never went away.


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## LoneOak (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Fuel has improved with things like MTBE, isoprene, etc. These have nothing to do with using less oil in your fuel, which is what we were discussing. It's also of not that pump fuel quality has actually decreased over time given the various RFG requirements on RVP, etc.
> And no offense intended but your talking ancient history. Like 4 and a half decades ago. Yea things have changed since then, but very little change in the last 20 or more years. The 100:1 products amsoil sells have been around for decades yet no serious racer uses them at those ratios. Same with Opti. Both are old technology to deal with plug fouling and deposits that existed decades ago that simply are not an issue now. Haven't been an issue since FC and GC came out really.


MTBE is not an improvement, it was a detriment and as such, has been banned/ phased out in the U.S. since the early 2000s


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> MTBE is not an improvement, it was a detriment and as such, has been banned/ phased out in the U.S. since the early 2000s


It's a great improvement in race fuel where its still used to this day.
It did have issues environmental wise when it got into ground water from leaky fuel tanks. Although the root of the problem was the leaky tanks, not the Mtbe.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Why two strokes cant pass emmissions standards has nothing to do with burning oil. It's all about unburnt charge escaping to the exhaust during the scavenging process. Has nothing to do with oil.
> KART engines can be pretty advanced. Shifter carts use the latest 125 mx bike engines for instance and they're are many European makes that produce state of the art kart motors now.
> KTM has solved this issue with transfer port injection. Yamaha two strokes never went away.





bwalker said:


> It's a great improvement in race fuel where its still used to this day.
> It did have issues environmental wise when it got into ground water from leaky fuel tanks. Although the root of the problem was the leaky tanks, not the Mtbe.


Like talking to the wall Lone Oak , when Ben gets his mind set , no reasoning with him Dude ! I mentioned to him the trade off of his archiac Methology of throwing more oil in the mix to enhance engine sealing capabilities to produce more horsepower vs the higher octane more oxygenated (MTBE) Race Fuels achieving the same end game via much leaner oil ratio's with today's modern synthetic oils ! Also advised him that 2 stroke cycles have gone the way of the dodo bird do inpart to the Polyaromatic hydrocarbons that they produce to the atmosphere , wether due to scavenging effect or in his case over rich oil to fuel ratio's . He won't hear of it . Just goes around in circles with his dogma , which is in direct conflict with what engine & oil manufacturers have engineered into ( new twist ) numerous modern outboards @ 100:1 ratio's ( Yamaha 1997) & Suzuki , Nissan (2018) . Anyhow , good luck pardner you going to need it . I think Ben needs to do a serious self evaluation & try to learn to play well with others while in the sand box ! Nothing personal intended of course !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Why two strokes cant pass emmissions standards has nothing to do with burning oil. It's all about unburnt charge escaping to the exhaust during the scavenging process. Has nothing to do with oil.
> KART engines can be pretty advanced. Shifter carts use the latest 125 mx bike engines for instance and they're are many European makes that produce state of the art kart motors now.
> KTM has solved this issue with transfer port injection. Yamaha two strokes never went away.


Allowing excessive poly-aromatic hydro carbons to enter the atmosphere is a direct conflict of interest within quality of air abatement emission control perimeters dude ! Also throwing extra oil to seal piston to ring & ring to cylinder wall sealing surfaces , is poor engineering , when better component metallurgy & coatings are available to ensure less piston distortion ( thermal growth ) & ring twisting & inherent blow by Ben !


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## CJ1 (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Go cart engines are dinosaur technology , but so are 2T Cycles . That's why they stopped production of 2T dirt bikes for. a few yrs . 2 much oil in the mix , could not pass epa protocols , therefore the leaner oil ratio trending . I hear that one major manufacturer (KTM) has brought back a new 2T version for the MX Open Class to compete against the 4 cycles . Anyhow do not follow dirt bike action much anymore !


KTM never stopped building and developing the 2 stroke. The big 3 keep pushing the 4 stroke and they have the majority of the $$$ so that is where we are at. At some local tracks they let modded 300's run against the 450 4 strokes and thats when the complaining starts. It is a shame that a kid starting out has to spend $3500 on a 4st cylinder head so he is competitive vs $2000 for a whole engine for a 2 stroke. But as usual follow the $$$. And yes I ran and raced both. I am faster on a 4 stroke but have way more fun on a 2 stroke! That is all I own now. CJ


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's a great improvement in race fuel where its still used to this day.
> It did have issues environmental wise when it got into ground water from leaky fuel tanks. Although the root of the problem was the leaky tanks, not the Mtbe.


Its just another case of poor engineering protocols & lack of due diligence to ensure protection of the environment (water , air or ground ) . Ben !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Like talking to the wall Lone Oak , when Ben , gets his mind set no reasoning with him Dude ! I mentioned to him the trade off of his archiac Methology of throwing more oil in the mix to enhance engine sealing capabilities to produce more horsepower vs the higher octane more oxygenated (MTBE) Race Fuels achieving the same end game via much leaner oil ratio's with today's modern synthetic oils ! Also advised him that 2 stroke cycles have gone the way of the dodo bird do inpart to the Polyaromatic hydrocarbons that they produce to the atmosphere , wether due to scavenging effect or in his case over rich oil to fuel ratio's . He won't hear of it . Just goes around in circles with his dogma , which is in direct conflict with what engine & oil manufacturers have engineered into numerous modern outboards @ 100:1 ratio's ( Yamaha 1997) & Suzuki , Nissan (2018) . Also in Evinrude / Johnson Direct Oil Injected / Etec variable rate injection @ 80 :1 off idle to 50:1 WOT . Anyhow , good luck pardner you going to need it . I think Ben needs to do a serious self evaluation & try to learn tobpkay well with others while in the sand box ! Nothing personal intended of course !


You are bringing up two seperate and unrelated issues. Yes, you can make more HP with doped race fuels and yes more oil makes more power. One doesn't invalidate the other.
Those Yamaha outboards run much longer at 50:1 BTW and I have purchased more Yamaha outboards than you ever will given my previous occupation.
ETEC isn't remotely the same thing as it has targeted oiling no gasoline in the crankcase.
Someone this stuff is so elementary it's ridiculous and yet you still continue to come to all sorts of false conclusions.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Its just another case of poor engineering protocols & lack of due diligence to ensure protection of the environment (water , air or ground ) . Ben !


Yes, in the use of steel below ground storage tanks.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> KTM never stopped building and developing the 2 stroke. The big 3 keep pushing the 4 stroke and they have the majority of the $$$ so that is where we are at. At some local tracks they let modded 300's run against the 450 4 strokes and thats when the complaining starts. It is a shame that a kid starting out has to spend $3500 on a 4st cylinder head so he is competitive vs $2000 for a whole engine for a 2 stroke. But as usual follow the $$$. And yes I ran and raced both. I am faster on a 4 stroke but have way more fun on a 2 stroke! That is all I own now. CJ


Kawasaki , Suzuki & Honda


bwalker said:


> You are bringing up two seperate and unrelated issues. Yes, you can make more HP with doped race fuels and yes more oil makes more power. One doesn't invalidate the other.
> Those Yamaha outboards run much longer at 50:1 BTW and I have purchased more Yamaha outboards than you ever will given my previous occupation.
> ETEC isn't remotely the same thing as it has targeted oiling no gasoline in the crankcase.
> Someone this stuff is so elementary it's ridiculous and yet you still continue to come to all sorts of false conclusions.


Elementary Watson but you still miss the bullseye majority of the time Sherlock ( less oil in the ratio is a world class engineering fact ) , I believe your beginning to take this way to personal Ben . I have already stated 3 times more oil makes more horsepower , but at what risk . Also owned a 1997 & 2000. Yamaha 4hp & 35 hp outboard s , life cycle over 25 yrs collectively @ 100:1 as recommended by the Manufacturer Ben !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yes, in the use of steel below ground storage tanks.


MTBE has a very distinct taste/smell and can be detected by the human nose and tongue in the parts per billion range. People noticed it getting into the groundwater. What they didn't detect is gasoline was getting into there groundwater for years. Including when it had high levels of benzene in it, which is a known carcinogen.
So in the EVA'S wisdom they banned MTBE after some lobbying from the corn farmers. The reality was it was storage tanks that where the problem and not MTBE.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Kawasaki , Suzuki & Honda
> 
> Elementary Watson but you still miss the bullseye majority of the time Sherlock , I believe your beginning to take this way to personal brother . I have already stated 3 times more oil makes more horsepower , but at what risk !


Its funny that now KTM sells more two strokes than Suz, Kawasaki and Honda sell dirt bikes.
I am not taking it personally at all. Go back and read what you wrote, sherlock.. your suggesting that because we have fuels that make more HP it's a good idea to run oil ratio's that make less. Then you go on to call using more oil antiquated. The idea that less oil is better in any way is antiquated in reality as it stems from a time well before we had decent oils.
And the fact remains that no *** manufacturer reccomends 100:1 ratios that I have ever seen. Of they truly were beneficial the OEMS would jump on that bandwagon. Instead it's peddled by bath tub blenders like Opti and Amsoil that have never produced a single drop of oil in their history and rely on third party company's like lubrizol to formulate their recipes.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You are bringing up two seperate and unrelated issues. Yes, you can make more HP with doped race fuels and yes more oil makes more power. One doesn't invalidate the other.
> Those Yamaha outboards run much longer at 50:1 BTW and I have purchased more Yamaha outboards than you ever will given my previous occupation.
> ETEC isn't remotely the same thing as it has targeted oiling no gasoline in the crankcase.
> Someone this stuff is so elementary it's ridiculous and yet you still continue to come to all sorts of false conclusions.





bwalker said:


> MTBEbhas a very distinct taste and can be detected by the human nose and tongue in the parts per billion range. People noticed it getting into the groundwater. What they didn't detect is gasoline was getting into there groundwater for years. Including when it had high levels of benzene in it, which is a known carcinogen.


Ben , was a Health & Safety Officier for 10 yrs I'am quite aware of all the Physical & Chemical Agents & Recognized or Suspected Human Carcinogens of the OHSA . Also relatively knowledgeable within Due Diligence of the Environmental Protection Agency & its Act !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ben , was a Health & Safety Officier for 10 yrs I'am quite aware of the all the Physical & Chemical Agents & Recognized or Suspected Human Carcinogens of the OHSA . Also relatively knowledgeable within Due Diligence of the Environmental Protection Agency & its Act !


Well then you should be aware that MTBE was neverproven to be a carcinogen and really the only ill health effects from it in studys arise from breathing massive quantities that are not realistic in the real world.
On top of that health a safety officers in industry are a joke and really are not educated at all on the topics I mentioned above.
However, I do have a Bachelors of science in Environmental Science so I might have cracked a book or two on the subject. And not 50 years ago.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Its funny that now KTM sells more two strokes than Suz, Kawasaki and Honda sell dirt bikes.
> I am not taking it personally at all. Go back and read what you wrote, sherlock.. your suggesting that because we have fuels that make more HP it's a good idea to run oil ratio's that make less. Then you go on to call using more oil antiquated. The idea that less oil is better in any way is antiquated in reality as it stems from a time well before we had decent oils.


Antiquated engineering methology to be precise . The current FD oils has sufficient viscosity to seal & lubricate at much leaner ratio's & the inherent more volatile current race fuels provide the additional required btu's , according to my quite knowledgeable associate who owns the local speed shop , who for your information dynoed 6 of the sleds entered into this yrs , I-500 Race in Soo Micigan Feb 5th !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Well then you should be aware that MTBE was neverproven to be a carcinogen and really the only ill health effects from it in studys arise from breathing massive quantities that are not realistic in the real world.
> On top of that health a safety officers in industry are a joke and really are not educated at all on the topics I mentioned above.
> However, I do have a Bachelors of science in Environmental Science so I might have cracked a book or two on the subject.


Something you don't understand about Recognized & Suspected ? Also don't t put words into my mouth to leverage your argument . I never mentioned MTBE as a Recognized Carcinogen ! P.S. I was a management appointed H&S officer & Certified Indutrial Hygenist .


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Antiquated engineering methology to be precise . The current FD oils has sufficient viscosity to seal & lubricate at much leaner ratio's & the inherent more volatile current race fuels provide the additional required btu's , according to my quite knowledgeable associate who own the local speed shop , who for your information dynoed 6 of the sleds entered into this yrs , I-500 Race in Soo Micigan Feb 5th !


Your associate doesn't know squat and you dont know that in regards to FD oils. Fuel is no more volatile now than in it was in the past. Pump gas if anything is less volatile. BTU's likewise are roughly the same. The only thing that change from today to back when you were in the game is oxygenates. However, they have been banned by some sanctioing bodies as it's an easy way to cheat, especially in stock classes. I might know a thing or two about that because I was doing so when I raced sleds back in the mid 90's.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Something you don't understand about Recognized & Suspected ? Also don't t put words into my mouth to leverage your argument . I never mentioned MTBE as a Recognized Carcinogen !


And something you don't realise is the methodology that came up with Suspected label. It was BS and politically motivated as I alluded to above.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> And something you don't realise is the methodology that came up with Suspected label. It was BS and politically motivated as I alluded to above.


Are not all Governed Legislation at least somewhat Politically Oriented Ben ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Your associate doesn't know squat and you dont know that in regards to FD oils. Fuel is no more volatile now than in it was in the past. Pump gas if anything is less volatile. BTU's likewise are roughly the same. The only thing that change from today to back when you were in the game is oxygenated. However, they have been banned by some sanctioing bodies as it's an easy way to cheat, especially in stock classes. I might know a thing or two about that because I was doing so when I raced sleds back in the mid 90's.


I guess he is being vastly overpaid then lol. Hey , answer me this , what happens when dissolved oxygen within a relatively high octane race fuel flashes at above ambient atmospheric pressures Ben ?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Its funny that now KTM sells more two strokes than Suz, Kawasaki and Honda sell dirt bikes.
> I am not taking it personally at all. Go back and read what you wrote, sherlock.. your suggesting that because we have fuels that make more HP it's a good idea to run oil ratio's that make less. Then you go on to call using more oil antiquated. The idea that less oil is better in any way is antiquated in reality as it stems from a time well before we had decent oils.
> And the fact remains that no *** manufacturer reccomends 100:1 ratios that I have ever seen. Of they truly were beneficial the OEMS would jump on that bandwagon. Instead it's peddled by bath tub blenders like Opti and Amsoil that have never produced a single drop of oil in their history and rely on third party company's like lubrizol to formulate their recipes.


Today's modern synthetic oils produce more or = btu's in the burn at lesser ratio's is my accertion Ben . Also i have seen Amsoil Blending & Distribution Plant , I had a tour personally fully automated , decanting to labelling & shipping , they buy their base oils & blend to spec of required product recipe !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Today's modern synthetic produce more or = btu's at lesser ratio's is my accertion Ben . Also i have seen Amsoil Blending & Distribution Plant , I had a tour personally fully automated , decanting to labelling & shipping , they buy their base oils & blend to spec of required product recipe !


Yea, no. 
And I have seen the Amsoil facility in Superior as well. It's a ware house and mixing facility.
And those specs the blend to are generated by a 3rd party company with a real R&D department like Lubrizol.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> KTM never stopped building and developing the 2 stroke. The big 3 keep pushing the 4 stroke and they have the majority of the $$$ so that is where we are at. At some local tracks they let modded 300's run against the 450 4 strokes and thats when the complaining starts. It is a shame that a kid starting out has to spend $3500 on a 4st cylinder head so he is competitive vs $2000 for a whole engine for a 2 stroke. But as usual follow the $$$. And yes I ran and raced both. I am faster on a 4 stroke but have way more fun on a 2 stroke! That is all I own now. CJ


P.S. CJ , Burt Bassett was the principal owner at Pro-5 , Larry Rugland was his right hand man . Larry has returned to LRM in Menomine Wisconsin. , his hometown a few yrs back bud !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> I guess he is being vastly overpaid then lol. Hey , answer me this , what happens when dissolved oxygen within a relatively high octane race fuel flashes at above ambient atmospheric pressures Ben ?


Inside an engine?


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Inside an engine?


Indeed !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Yea, no.
> And I have seen the Amsoil facility in Superior as well. It's a ware house and mixing facility.
> And those specs the blend to are generated by a 3rd party company with a real R&D department like Lubrizol.


I never said it was a proprietary internally designed recipe Ben . Outsourcing of such R & D is not something out of the ordinary , actually the opposite for numerous reasons in today's environment !


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

Wish you two would discuss your feelings else where.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Indeed !


Actually most of the fuel entering an engine flashes as soon as it enters the crank case at a vacuum... this assumes an engine at opersting temp.
Where you going with this?


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

This thread is about your current two stroke oil.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> This thread is about your current two stroke oil.


Thank you! Not name dropping dudes that were relevant 50 years ago in a totally different application.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> This thread is about your current two stroke oil.


In chainsaws too..


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Red Armor, but only have about a gallon of mixed gas left. Have two pints of Honda HP2 on the shelf as well as a quart each of Maxima K2 and Yamalube 2R. I've had perfect results from all.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> This thread is about your current two stroke oil.


And its very informative & amusing also!


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> P.S. CJ , Burt Bassett was the principal owner at Pro-5 , Larry Rugland was his right hand man . Larry has returned to LRM in Menomine Wisconsin. , his hometown a few yrs back bud !


P.S.S. Thanks CJ for the point of clarification . I heard that the reduction of 2 T bike participation in the open or elite class was due to more stringent epa regulations that hamstring this development & usage rather than a pure marketing ploy , in Sanctioned Events ! Like I said previously , that's what happened in the street bike class adios smelly / smokey 2 stroke riders ! I have been out of the bike racing scene too long lol. However , I agree with the burden on young developmental drivers , who are financially at a loss to obtain high quality racing equipment & parts. . I remember when as an independent racer , it got to the point that you had to have factory backing to be competitive . Aftermarket parts & backyard tuning no longer cut it . I ran 2 to 3 yr old chassis's with yr end new factory engines , & of course it was not a level playing field (track or course) a big disadvantage. It was refreshing when I got factory hand me downs as a factory associate driver eventually !


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Red Armor, but only have about a gallon of mixed gas left. Have two pints of Honda HP2 on the shelf as well as a quart each of Maxima K2 and Yamalube 2R. I've had perfect results from all.


Got two new old stock pint bottles of valvoline 2 cycle motorcycle oil from 2004.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Wish you two would discuss your feelings else where.


Ok , grasshopper , your absolutely correct , my apologies brother !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Ok continue , it changes state from a semi viscous fluid to a semi gaseous state , what does the release of formerly dissolved oxygen do to btu rating of this pending fuel charge ?


Your nuts. That oxygen isn't released until combustion breaks the chemical bonds...SMH.
So here we have someone that wants to argue the more complex points of fuels and oils and doesn't even have a basic understanding of what's happening..
And oxygen is not a fuel. It has zero BTU.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Thank you! Not name dropping dudes that were relevant 50 years ago in a totally different application.


I suppose your personality & character faults are the basis for your continuing travels & exploits , certainly have few demonstrated people skills to maintain any form of reasonable decorum . Just continued demeaning & derogatory comments , when push comes to shove toward anyone who doesn't drink your kool-aid . Not even a little respect for your elders . I suppose you were a only child Ben , coddled & spoiled , inverted initially , demonstrated difficulty associating with his peers ? Getting close Ben ? Anyhow I am out of here , your becoming tiresome brother , you have been taken to water & drowned !


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 28, 2022)

I always say that a smarter one should relax  and look who it is ;-)


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> I suppose your personality & character faults are the basis for your continuing travels & exploits , certainly have few demonstrated people skills to maintain any form of reasonable decorum . Just continued demeaning & derogatory comments , when push comes to shove toward anyone who doesn't drink your kill-aid . Not even a little respect for your elders . I suppose you were a only child Ben , coddled & spoiled , inverted initially , demonstrated difficulty associating with his peers ? Getting close Ben ? Anyhow I am out of here , your becoming tiresome brother , you have been taken to water & drowned !


As with most things your not even remotely close.
How about you try to refute what I said in my last post instead of engaging in some lame ad hominem attack.


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## CJ1 (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Its funny that now KTM sells more two strokes than Suz, Kawasaki and Honda sell dirt bikes.
> 
> No, not even close. Ktm is only 250000 roughly 2 and 4 stoke bikes where just Honda is around 15 million world wide. Love my ktm euro trash but they have a LONG way to go to get to anything that resembles Hondas bank roll! Cj


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

I'm talking US sales. And admittedly the numbers I am referring to where off road bike sales from several years ago. Might have changed given the surge in purchasing related to covid.
I should point out also that MX bike sales are dead while off road sales are doing better. KTM sells way more off road bikes than the others.
MX with the move to four strokes and higher technology is a very expensive sport nowadays.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Your nuts. That oxygen isn't released until combustion breaks the chemical bonds...SMH.
> So here we have someone that wants to argue the more complex points of fuels and oils and doesn't even have a basic understanding of what's happening..
> And oxygen is not a fuel. It has zero BTU.


Your a moron in wolf's clothing , the oxygen is released during phase change during the partial vacuum within the crankcase (no such thing as a perfect vacuum , guess you slept through that class) increasing the air volume & density within the fuel charge , that is what mbte does oxygenates the fuel & increases the octane value . During compression & ignition it also increases the rate of burn , thats also what a oxygen enrichened fuel charge readily does Ben . Anyhow arrogance is not a virtue Ben , carry on entittled one , since your intention is always to make things personal or pout when some one does not bow down to your revelations , perhaps anger management therapy could help you , you come a cross as a very frustrated individual , all most borderline narcissistic , anyhow here ends the lesson .. Cheers !


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Your a moron in wolf's clothing , the oxygen is released during phase change within the partial vacuum within the crankcase (no such thing as a perfect vacuum , guess you slept through that class) increasing the air volume & density within the fuel charge , that is what mbte does oxygenates the fuel & increases the octane value . During compression it also increases the rate of burn , thats also what a oxygen enrichened fuel charge readily does Ben . Anyhow arrogance is not a virtue Ben , carry on entittled one , since your intention is always to make things personal or pout when some one does not bow down to your revelations , perhaps anger management therapy could help you , you come a cross as a very frustrated individual , all most borderline narcissistic , anyhow here ends the lesson .. Cheers !


No, it's not... you are totally wrong per usual.
In a refinery we take products and transform them from gas to liquids and from liquids to gas on a regular basis. They don't change chemical composition. Just like condensing steam back to water doesn't result in in splitting the h2o molecule into hydrogen and water. To do that you need to break the molecular bonds with electrolysis.
This is basic stuff...


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## jakethesnake (Jan 28, 2022)

I’m running some raisman full synthetic. Stinks a little. Had to open one of my saws up recently. Looked oily inside. 32:1. I’m sure I could use less. Got some Kawasaki oil next I think. Then I’ll buy something different. Or find a good sale. And continue the madness within me of trying different oil without any care in the world. Except Lucas. Which I hate


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’m running some raisman full synthetic. Stinks a little. Had to open one of my saws up recently. Looked oily inside. 32:1. I’m sure I could use less. Got some Kawasaki oil next I think. Then I’ll buy something different. Or find a good sale. And continue the madness within me of trying different oil without any care in the world. Except Lucas. Which I hate


Like my conclusion with saber i tried a few years ago it sooty in the port but left a nasty looking flakey scale on top of the piston


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I’m running some raisman full synthetic. Stinks a little. Had to open one of my saws up recently. Looked oily inside. 32:1. I’m sure I could use less. Got some Kawasaki oil next I think. Then I’ll buy something different. Or find a good sale. And continue the madness within me of trying different oil without any care in the world. Except Lucas. Which I hate


I looked at raisman oil on hlsproparts and coundn't help but notice a site carries a lot of stuff but a lot seems expensive.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I looked at raisman oil on hlsproparts and coundn't help but notice a site carries a lot of stuff but a lot seems expensive.


I got it there lol obviously. I needed to spend a few more bucks for free shipping to occur. That’s how I ended up with it. At the time I certainly didn’t need to buy any.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 28, 2022)

I have never done a 1-30 mix but there is one saw that this will try on / x-torch compensator saw on?


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## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> I got it there lol obviously. I needed to spend a few more bucks for free shipping to occur. That’s how I ended up with it. At the time I certainly didn’t need to buy any.


what does the lucas oil do because i have heard things but personally have not used it.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Like my conclusion with saber i tried a few years ago it sooty in the port but left a nasty looking flakey scale on top of the piston


Saber , is one of the cleanest oils on the market when mixed as recommended (50:1 to 100:1) , in a saw of reasonable state of repair & properly tuned to application !


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Saber , is one of the cleanest oils on the market when mixed as recommended (50:1 to 100:1) , in a saw of reasonable state of repair & properly tuned to application !


ok.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 28, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> what does the lucas oil do because i have heard things but personally have not used it.


Not sure what it does. But it doesn’t lubricate lol


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## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No, it's not... you are totally wrong per usual.
> In a refinery we take products and transform them from gas to liquids and from liquids to gas on a regular basis. They don't change chemical composition. Just like condensing steam back to water doesn't result in in splitting the h2o molecule into hydrogen and water. To do that you need to break the molecular bonds with electrolysis.
> This is basic stuff...


Well aware of the sensible & latent heat of steam & condensate Ben . Lets try sticking to oil as previously requested !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> No, it's not... you are totally wrong per usual.
> In a refinery we take products and transform them from gas to liquids and from liquids to gas on a regular basis. They don't change chemical composition. Just like condensing steam back to water doesn't result in in splitting the h2o molecule into hydrogen and water. To do that you need to break the molecular bonds with electrolysis.
> This is basic stuff...


Have worked on Oil Spitting during many oil recycling campaigns from routine Morgoil grade oils to Heavy Bunker C-5 & C-6 . Have to run it through 150 # Saturated Steam heat exchanger system to the even get it to flow to the Centrifuge for splitting & separation of contaminants . The Morgoil lubrication oil though was even worse, it takes on a high sulphur content that really stinks when brought up to temperature in storage in vented to atmosphere bulk tanks. Stihl Ultra smells like Channel #12 in comparison . P.S. you should have worked in a Distillery , lots of benefits in fugitive emissions there , and squeaky clean environment ! That's it for my contribution to this oil thread . Enjoy yourselves !


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 28, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's a great improvement in race fuel where its still used to this day.
> It did have issues environmental wise when it got into ground water from leaky fuel tanks. Although the root of the problem was the leaky tanks, not the Mtbe.


Can you produce an MSDS of a race fuel with MTBE as an ingredient....From THIS decade?!
Why would any race fuel producer choose MTBE when Ethanol has twice the oxygen content?


----------



## LoneOak (Jan 28, 2022)

Not to mention there are FAR safer Oxygenates than MTBE!


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## KASH (Jan 28, 2022)

OMC outboards tried the 100 to 1 mix ratio but it did not last long I have several Yamaha outboards but I mix 50 to 1.
Anyhow guys in your heated debates remember
Your only as smart as the person your debating with.
I used some one elses quote.To them I say thanks it is so true.
Kash


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

Broken said:


> Well aware of the sensible & latent heat of steam & condensate Ben . Lets try sticking to oil as previously requested !


Good, now take that ridiculous statement you made back.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Can you produce an MSDS of a race fuel with MTBE as an ingredient....From THIS decade?!
> Why would any race fuel producer choose MTBE when Ethanol has twice the oxygen content?


Any of the VP oxy fuels.
Because ethanol has many negative properties for a two stroke. Especially one that's on and off the throttle.


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## bwalker (Jan 28, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Not to mention there are FAR safer Oxygenates than MTBE!


MTBE is very safe. It's actually used as a medicine in the treatment of kidney stones.


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## LoneOak (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Any of the VP oxy fuels.
> *Because ethanol has many negative properties for a two stroke. Especially one that's on and off the throttle*.


Again, more conjecture! What negative properties? What proof can you offer to back your claims? You incessantly make claims, insist that they are facts, and get "Torqued" when you are challenged about them. Your level of narcissism is off the charts!


I find it suspect when a company can't be honest about the ingredients of its products. All sorts of nastiness in this S.H.I.T. , I have never purchased a VP product and now I never will!


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## LoneOak (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> MTBE is very safe. It's actually used as a medicine in the treatment of kidney stones.


Actually, no it's not used in the treatment of Kidney Stones.
It is used in the treatment of Gallstones. And its use is quite limited at that.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Actually, no it's not used in the treatment of Kidney Stones.
> It is used in the treatment of Gallstones. And its use is quite limited at that.
> 
> View attachment 960284


Good points LoneOak , your again correct . Many medical treatment are evasive & incure an element of risk & potential side effects . Not something you want to deliberately expose yourself to . Coumadin ( warfarin) used for yrs to control thrombosis ( blood clots) is now considered a Carcinogenic agent . Anyhow there are numerous physical & chemical agents that have the potential for Carcinogenic / Mutgenic (DNA changes) / Terotegenic ( fetal effects ) on humans . Let alone environmental impacts . Many environmental studies eventually include the Toxiclogical & biological route of entry components , Inhalation , Absorbtion & Injestion for a reason . I appreciate the benefits of a good oil application , however not at the risk to health or the environment . Thanks for your imput brother !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Good, now take that ridiculous statement you made back.


When you take back you derogatory , insensitive & ridiculas statement from post #10141 !


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

Broken said:


> When you take back you derogatory , insensitive & ridiculas statement from post #10141 !


Which one would that be?
Sounds like you need to fill out a hurt feelers report.


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

KASH said:


> OMC outboards tried the 100 to 1 mix ratio but it did not last long I have several Yamaha outboards but I mix 50 to 1.
> Anyhow guys in your heated debates remember
> Your only as smart as the person your debating with.
> I used some one elses quote.To them I say thanks it is so true.
> Kash


Yeah Yamaha also did the same in 1997 with their fishing / trolling sized outboard . I had a 4hp & 35 hp that both were recommended with. in the owners manual & within the engine cowling " 100:1 Yamaha 2T oil " . I believe it may have continued with the 40 hp , 50 hp & 60 hp outboard S in that model yr . I believe they then went on to the Precision-Blend injector system in 98 .


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

Broken said:


> Good points LoneOak , your again correct . Many medical treatment are evasive & incure an element of risk & potential side effects . Not something you want to deliberately expose yourself to . Coumadin ( warfarin) used for yrs to control thrombosis ( blood clots) is now considered a Carcinogenic agent . Anyhow there are numerous physical & chemical agents that have the potential for Carcinogenic / Mutgenic (DNA changes) / Terotegenic ( fetal effects ) on humans . Let alone environmental impacts . Many environmental studies eventually include the Toxiclogical & biological route of entry components , Inhalation , Absorbtion & Injestion for a reason . I appreciate the benefits of a good oil application , however not at the risk to health or the environment . Thanks for your imput brother !


More verbal diarrhea. And warfarin is still in use BTW.


----------



## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Actually, no it's not used in the treatment of Kidney Stones.
> It is used in the treatment of Gallstones. And its use is quite limited at that.
> 
> View attachment 960284


Boy, you got me there...


----------



## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Again, more conjecture! What negative properties? What proof can you offer to back your claims? You incessantly make claims, insist that they are facts, and get "Torqued" when you are challenged about them. Your level of narcissism is off the charts!
> 
> 
> I find it suspect when a company can't be honest about the ingredients of its products. All sorts of nastiness in this S.H.I.T. , I have never purchased a VP product and now I never will!
> View attachment 960281


It's a race gas. They contain lead.
I would not use leaded fuel in a Chainsaw and I've said has much many times.
However, VP makes good products. Probably the best at making race gas.
One other thing to consider is an MSDS isn't a recipe. It only shows the toxic components.
As for ethanol. Why don't you call up VP and tell the idiots why don't they just use ethanol..


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Which one would that be?
> Sounds like you need to fill out a hurt feelers report.


Sounds like your a hurt in individual who can't read , shut your lips , open your eyes & read


bwalker said:


> More verbal diarrhea. And warfarin is still in use BTW.


I never said it was not still in use idiot !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Boy, you got me there...


You leave yourself open to criticism every time you open you mouth Ben !


----------



## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's a race gas. They contain lead.
> I would not use leaded fuel in a Chainsaw and I've said has much many times.
> However, VP makes good products. Probably the best at making race gas.
> One other thing to consider is an MSDS isn't a recipe. It only shows the toxic components.
> As for ethanol. Why don't you call up VP and tell the idiots why don't they just use ethanol..


Duh , you think Sherlock , toxilogical effects actually registers lmao . Your so bright your mother probably called you sunny !


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

Broken said:


> Sounds like your a hurt in individual who can't read , shut your lips , open your eyes & read
> 
> I never said it was not in still in use idiot !


You sure alluded to that fact.. "used for years "
You get lost in your own BS.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> You sure alluded to that fact.. "used for years "
> You get lost in your own BS.


I said " considered " " recognised " would be banned & "suspected" would be highly controlled guidelines within the OHSA . You don't have clue .


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

Broken said:


> More likely contaminated with your environmental horse manure !


OK...bud..lol


----------



## jakethesnake (Jan 29, 2022)




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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> OK...bud..lol


I anticipate a story about how one time in 1940 your were racing saws against Andreas Stihl himself..


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I anticipate a story about how one time in 1940 your were racing saws against Andreas Stihl himself..


Hell , now ratchet jaws replying to his own posts . Ben you have been requested in a very polite manner more than once to keep to the oil . Try growing up a little Mr 1st Class jerk !


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## North by Northwest (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> I anticipate a story about how one time in 1940 your were racing saws against Andreas Stihl himself..


Not quite that old punk , but could outrace anything you run , other than perhaps you big mouth & ego !


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## LoneOak (Jan 29, 2022)

bwalker said:


> It's a race gas. They contain lead.
> I would not use leaded fuel in a Chainsaw and I've said has much many times.
> However, VP makes good products. Probably the best at making race gas.
> One other thing to consider is an MSDS isn't a recipe. It only shows the toxic components.
> As for ethanol. Why don't you call up VP and tell the idiots why don't they just use ethanol..


This is F'n hilarious! This fuel IS O. P. E. fuel. With LEAD IN IT!!!
I don't need a recipe, I want honesty!
An MSDS does not just highlight toxicity of components in a product, It goes far beyond that!
"THE BEST" is always subjective!

So the product page does indicate the presence of MTBE but nothing about lead. And then wants to compare its performance against NON-Oxygenated pump gas? YA they tha BEST.......at Marketing BS!


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## Husky77 (Jan 29, 2022)

Ok, I have enjoyed reading this thread and seen the comments starting to get a bit hot shall we say, so it's time to calm down and just enjoy your saws whatever you run them on. If everyone followed what the manufacture advises regarding fuel & oil ALL saws would run as they were made to and everyone would be happy wouldnt they?
NO.... and why not! because we are human and love to try this and that in the hope it may go a little faster or save a little money or some other reason only you will know. Lets face it, over half the people why buy a brand new saw dont even look at the manual! they think they know better because they probably has a saw for years and you cant tell them what to do, we all know these and they are the first to have a saw stop running. You see it all the time on here, from carb setting to plug gap. It's obvious some shouldnt be let near a saw but some learn while others go through life being carried by others. So many oils out there these days and most will do the job, the biggest problem is the saw is not being used right! a blunt chain being the cause of so many problems and combine that with someone cutting at less than full throttle and your heading for huge problems. If your scratching your head and thinking whats he talking about then its probably time you stepped back and started from scratch. Carbon is a killer of saws I have seen so many pistons ruined just through ignorance. I could go on but life is too short, use what the manufacturer tells you at the ratio they say. Some will say its too lean, all my saws are older and all run at 50/1 and never ever had a piston marked or a saw over heat. Later years I have been using Aspen 2 and that has their own oil at 50/1 ready mixed and with the same clean results, you can knock the oil companies all you like but some somewhere is having good results and swears by their brand. Which brings me back to knowing how to run a saw and keep it sharp, if you ignore that your going to wreck your saw and probably blame the oil or the make of saw or a cloud passing over head. When its the ignorant human who knows it all and dont need to read the owners manual :****you:
Some are destine to go through life chasing their tails I guess
Have fun, enjoy and be nice


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> This is F'n hilarious! This fuel IS O. P. E. fuel. With LEAD IN IT!!!
> I don't need a recipe, I want honesty!
> An MSDS does not just highlight toxicity of components in a product, It goes far beyond that!
> "THE BEST" is always subjective!
> ...


Mrx02 is made for MX bikes. Not O P E.


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## bwalker (Jan 29, 2022)

Broken said:


> Not quite that old punk , but could outrace anything you run , other than perhaps you big mouth & ego !


This rich come from the guy that is always interjecting stories from 50-60 years ago and on anything but chainsaws.. SMH


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## sundance (Jan 29, 2022)

WOW! I once just wanted to know that the Dominator I bought was reasonable for my saws,,,,,now know way too much about bikes and sleds. If I saw an answer about my oil I missed it. Skipped a few (maybe many) pages. Y'all enjoy pissing in each others Wheaties.


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## jellyroll (Jan 29, 2022)

I got a half gallon of used motor oil mixed with a half gallon of diesel the saw doesn't run to good with it but it works well letting kindling and firewood soak in it for a few weeks.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 30, 2022)

sundance said:


> WOW! I once just wanted to know that the Dominator I bought was reasonable for my saws,,,,,now know way too much about bikes and sleds. If I saw an answer about my oil I missed it. Skipped a few (maybe many) pages. Y'all enjoy pissing in each others Wheaties.


Dominater is great for a chainsaw boss. Legit. Likely one of the best out there. Mastermind has switched to it. Several others have as well. Fella named egg shooter did some testing for fun. Dominater was basically the best out there


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## Piotr Pakuła (Jan 30, 2022)

we also need to add saws who run too large guides and think that it is the fault of the oil


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Jan 30, 2022)

I run Dominator in my air-cooled 2-stroke '74 Yamaha RD350. I've got a pile of money in that engine - I did my research in '09 and picked the best oil I could find. Saber would've worked great as a premix too, but I wanted to keep the OE oil injection, and Saber was a bit too thick. Also, the pump was designed to run at 50:1 or heavier - Dominator was the perfect oil for that. I've run the bike 6k HARD miles over the years, and compression is still triple digits cold, exactly what it was after the rebuild break-in period was done.


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## Fubar (Jan 30, 2022)

It use to be Uni-lube brand , but its called coastal now , They made pyroil and a few other brands , refined in west memphis Ark , cheap **** , cheap saws ,i have always run 25 to 1 mix .


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## LoneOak (Jan 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Mrx02 is made for MX bikes. Not O P E.


Umm.....it says 2-stroke fuel.....not MX fuel
Also...Dirtbikes and Quads are O. P. E. as well! "OUTDOOR" "POWER" "EQUIPMENT" You can argue the semantics all you like, but the facts will remain the same!


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## jakethesnake (Jan 30, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I run Dominator in my air-cooled 2-stroke '74 Yamaha RD350. I've got a pile of money in that engine - I did my research in '09 and picked the best oil I could find. Saber would've worked great as a premix too, but I wanted to keep the OE oil injection, and Saber was a bit too thick. Also, the pump was designed to run at 50:1 or heavier - Dominator was the perfect oil for that. I've run the bike 6k HARD miles over the years, and compression is still triple digits cold, exactly what it was after the rebuild break-in period was done.
> 
> View attachment 960649


Dope bike man.


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## bwalker (Jan 30, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> Umm.....it says 2-stroke fuel.....not MX fuel
> Also...Dirtbikes and Quads are O. P. E. as well! "OUTDOOR" "POWER" "EQUIPMENT" You can argue the semantics all you like, but the facts will remain the same!
> View attachment 960664


Dirt bikes and quads are not Outdoor Power Equipment. They are OHV's.
The facts are clearly lost on you, but don't take my word for it. Call VP and ask what the intended application is.








VP MRX02 Fuel


This fuel, designed for two-stroke motocross bikes and ATVs, offers improved heat-resistance from its predecessor. An increased octane level delivers up to 7 percent more power than pump gas and any basic non-oxgenated race fuel.




www.motorcyclepowersportsnews.com


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## North by Northwest (Jan 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> This rich come from the guy that is always interjecting stories from 50-60 years ago and on anything but chainsaws.. SMH


You keep flapping you gums , with your additude you won't make it to 50 , Just saying !


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## bwalker (Jan 30, 2022)

Broken said:


> You keep flapping you gums , with your additude you won't make it to 50 , Just saying !


Truth evidently hurts..


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## LoneOak (Jan 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Dirt bikes and quads are not Outdoor Power Equipment. They are OHV's.
> The facts are clearly lost on you, but don't take my word for it. Call VP and ask what the intended application is.
> *
> 
> ...


LMAO!!! You cherry pick an ad from a website that is not the manufacturers!! Just to try proving your point!!


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## LoneOak (Jan 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> *Dirt bikes and quads are not Outdoor Power Equipment. They are OHV's*.
> The facts are clearly lost on you, but don't take my word for it. Call VP and ask what the intended application is.
> 
> 
> ...


OHV = Narrow Scope Discriptor
O P E = Wide Scope Discriptor
LoL, Arguing semantics will not prove your point!


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 30, 2022)

jakethesnake said:


> Dominater is great for a chainsaw boss. Legit. Likely one of the best out there. Mastermind has switched to it. Several others have as well. Fella named egg shooter did some testing for fun. Dominater was basically the best out there


Mastermind? Never heard of her.


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## North by Northwest (Jan 30, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Truth evidently hurts..


Only , in the eyes of the beholder youngin !


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## jakethesnake (Jan 30, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Mastermind? Never heard of her.


She’s cute. Has nice legs


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## bwalker (Jan 31, 2022)

LoneOak said:


> LMAO!!! You cherry pick an ad from a website that is not the manufacturers!! Just to try proving your point!!


Why don't you just call VP. They do off a line of O PE fuels. And the one you linked isn't one of them.


----------



## Sandhill Crane (Jan 31, 2022)

Ya'll lost me on the topic.
And seeing this is a firewood forum...
What is the 2021/2022 preferred two stroke fuel mix for newer pro chain saws?
(Edit: Page #56 is the only page I've read, and did not want to go through previous pages, having read as much crap as I did on this one. So if there is good information previously, I've missed it.)
I've been using Stihl oil mix for thirty years, most recently their synthetic, in Stihl and Husqvarna saws.


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## OM617YOTA (Jan 31, 2022)

If it's worked for 30 years, keep doing what you're doing.

If I was mixing my own these days, it'd be Yamalube aircooled or Echo Red Armor.

More importantly, TUNE TUNE TUNE. Whatever batch of eleven herbs and spices you decide on, TUNE your saw for what you run.


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## Tomos770 (Jan 31, 2022)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Ya'll lost me on the topic.
> And seeing this is a firewood forum...
> What is the 2021/2022 preferred two stroke fuel mix for newer pro chain saws?
> (Edit: Page #56 is the only page I've read, and did not want to go through previous pages, having read as much crap as I did on this one. So if there is good information previously, I've missed it.)
> I've been using Stihl oil mix for thirty years, most recently their synthetic, in Stihl and Husqvarna saws.


For your eyes only! 






So what's the current Two stroke oil favorite for


I’m seeing lots of mentions for products that aren’t specifically designed for chainsaw applications.




www.arboristsite.com


----------



## CaseyForrest (Jan 31, 2022)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Ya'll lost me on the topic.
> And seeing this is a firewood forum...
> What is the 2021/2022 preferred two stroke fuel mix for newer pro chain saws?
> (Edit: Page #56 is the only page I've read, and did not want to go through previous pages, having read as much crap as I did on this one. So if there is good information previously, I've missed it.)
> I've been using Stihl oil mix for thirty years, most recently their synthetic, in Stihl and Husqvarna saws.


Condensed version....

The Stihl Silver bottle oil is a JASO FB rated oil. It was designed to solve an issue with Stihl 4 mix engines. It is not the BEST oil to be used in a regular 2 stroke engine, especially if mixed stronger than 50:1.

Really, you're looking for a JASO FC, or even better and FD rated oil. Ive picked up and am going to try Maxima Super M, Red Line All Sport, Echo Red Armor and Lucas Semi Syn. If you want to step up from those, to a non rated oil but ones that get high nods from whomever in the know... Yamalube 2R, Maxima K2, Klotz Original Techniplate. Klotz R50 is good oil as well, but seems to gum up if you're not running the saws hard. The issue, as I understand it, going to a "better" non rated oil isn't always a good idea. Racing oils are designed to be used in engines that get torn down, so they lack some of the anti corrosion properties, and detergents you'll find in an FD rated oil.


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## Husky77 (Jan 31, 2022)

"Racing oils are designed to be used in engines that get torn down, so they lack some of the anti corrosion properties, and detergents you'll find in an FD rated oil."
Exactly, at last. Now just use what the manufacture advises, it will work honestly. And if you blow a saw up I would look at what your doing wrong. Tune and learn to tune right, then keep a chain sharp and then listen to your engine. EASY


----------



## huskihl (Jan 31, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> "Racing oils are designed to be used in engines that get torn down, so they lack some of the anti corrosion properties, and detergents you'll find in an FD rated oil."
> Exactly, at last. Now just use what the manufacture advises, it will work honestly. And if you blow a saw up I would look at what your doing wrong. Tune and learn to tune right, then keep a chain sharp and then listen to your engine. EASY


This is what was recommended by the manufacturer. No thanks 






So what's the current Two stroke oil favorite for


I’m seeing lots of mentions for products that aren’t specifically designed for chainsaw applications.




www.arboristsite.com


----------



## jellyroll (Jan 31, 2022)

huskihl said:


> This is what was recommended by the manufacturer. No thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I run what manufacturer doesn't recommend at ratios that make the epa get triggered.


----------



## rogue60 (Feb 1, 2022)

Babied and pampered well looked after 661 work saw run on 25:1 mineral oil..
That's amazing mineral oil getting in the way of metal to metal contact? unheard of according to the internet's I best be getting some top tier synthetic oil before me chit blows up me thinks ..


----------



## rogue60 (Feb 1, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I run what manufacturer doesn't recommend at ratios that make the epa get triggered.
> View attachment 961123


You can't see the wear on the piston? That's from the piston contacting the bore I'd changing oils myself...
Would be interesting to see the how much wear is on the load side piston skirt in that saw.


----------



## jellyroll (Feb 1, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> You can't see the wear on the piston? That's from the piston contacting the bore I'd changing oils myself...
> Would be interesting to see the how much wear is on the load side piston skirt in that saw.
> View attachment 961202


Yes it has plenty of wear but it is three years old and It has 700+ hours on it and it is a string trimmer. I have done commercial work.


----------



## North by Northwest (Feb 1, 2022)

Husky77 said:


> "Racing oils are designed to be used in engines that get torn down, so they lack some of the anti corrosion properties, and detergents you'll find in an FD rated oil."
> Exactly, at last. Now just use what the manufacture advises, it will work honestly. And if you blow a saw up I would look at what your doing wrong. Tune and learn to tune right, then keep a chain sharp and then listen to your engine. EASY


Absolutely 77 , back in the day , tear downs were normal 100 hr routines even sooner in some applications , the good old days. ! lol.


----------



## Joisey (Feb 1, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes it has plenty of wear but it is three years old and It has 700+ hours on it and it is a string trimmer. I have done commercial work.
> View attachment 961206


I have an XL12 that I have run on 50:1 Amsoil Saber oil for at least the last 20 years. I can wipe the carbon out of the exhaust port with a qtip or paper towel. Compression is still 140 psi, and zero scraping on the side of the piston. I run the hell out of that saw. I would say a chainsaw puts more of a load on the engine than a string trimmer.


----------



## Piotr Pakuła (Feb 1, 2022)

it depends on what kind of grass you enter ;-) this trimmer and what a trimmer it is


----------



## jellyroll (Feb 1, 2022)

Joisey said:


> I have an XL12 that I have run on 50:1 Amsoil Saber oil for at least the last 20 years. I can wipe the carbon out of the exhaust port with a qtip or paper towel. Compression is still 140 psi, and zero scraping on the side of the piston. I run the hell out of that saw. I would say a chainsaw puts more of a load on the engine than a string trimmer.


My compression is still 140 cold as well what are you grasping? i burn better than 5 tanks per day i don't run a guard and with my gear reduction box i am running 20 inches of line out on a 23cc unit.


----------



## Joisey (Feb 1, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> My compression is still 140 cold as well what are you grasping? i burn better than 5 tanks per day i don't run a guard and with my gear reduction box i am running 20 inches of line out on a 23cc unit.


And the side of your piston still looks like crap.


----------



## North by Northwest (Feb 1, 2022)

rogue60 said:


> Babied and pampered well looked after 661 work saw run on 25:1 mineral oil..
> That's amazing mineral oil getting in the way of metal to metal contact? unheard of according to the internet's I best be getting some top tier synthetic oil before me chit blows up me thinks ..
> 
> View attachment 961194
> View attachment 961195


Many , 371xp ' s & MS-460 's ran premium FC mineral oils @ 32:1 also for yrs of service , and looked like that . Nothing wrong with a premium dino oil in a properly tuned , high compression saw !


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## jellyroll (Feb 1, 2022)

Joisey said:


> And the side of your piston still looks like crap.


that is your opinion go tell someone who cares.


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## Joisey (Feb 1, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> that is your opinion go tell someone who cares.


That works both ways. I will lose zero sleep


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## CJ1 (Feb 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes it has plenty of wear but it is three years old and It has 700+ hours on it and it is a string trimmer. I have done commercial work.
> View attachment 961206


With 700 hours on it and it still shows mill marks IMHO that is impressive. I have pulled small bore dirt bikes apart with the ring worn half of the original thickness and the end gap unmeasureable, like 3/8 of a inch. On the bottom ring just to the right you can see a strange wear pattern developing because of the run time. Most 2 strokes never see this kind of time on them either from lack of use or piss poor maintenance and poor fuel quality. CJ


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## OM617YOTA (Feb 2, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Yes it has plenty of wear but it is three years old and It has 700+ hours on it and it is a string trimmer. I have done commercial work.
> View attachment 961206


If I had 700 hours on a string trimmer, I'd be absolutely thrilled that it still had any compression and ran at all. Yes there's wear, but it's got 700 hours on it. If it looked pristine, people would say you're lying about the 700 hours. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.


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## jellyroll (Feb 2, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> With 700 hours on it and it still shows mill marks IMHO that is impressive. I have pulled small bore dirt bikes apart with the ring worn half of the original thickness and the end gap unmeasureable, like 3/8 of a inch. On the bottom ring just to the right you can see a strange wear pattern developing because of the run time. Most 2 strokes never see this kind of time on them either from lack of use or piss poor maintenance and poor fuel quality. CJ


Ran 32:1 the entire time tuned a little rich on the H speed jet and when the line came in contact with grass it cleaned up.


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## jellyroll (Feb 2, 2022)

CJ1 said:


> With 700 hours on it and it still shows mill marks IMHO that is impressive. I have pulled small bore dirt bikes apart with the ring worn half of the original thickness and the end gap unmeasureable, like 3/8 of a inch. On the bottom ring just to the right you can see a strange wear pattern developing because of the run time. Most 2 strokes never see this kind of time on them either from lack of use or piss poor maintenance and poor fuel quality. CJ





OM617YOTA said:


> If I had 700 hours on a string trimmer, I'd be absolutely thrilled that it still had any compression and ran at all. Yes there's wear, but it's got 700 hours on it. If it looked pristine, people would say you're lying about the 700 hours. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.


Super tech universal air cooled from Walmart mixed with 87 E0.


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## motolane (Feb 2, 2022)

yamaha 2r synthetic has been my favorite for the last 30 years, i never had an issue- i always run with no ethanol gas mixed 32-1 or 40-1 and use it in everything 2 stroke


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## Woodchuckr (Feb 2, 2022)

Pulled the muffler off the 25 ish year old 026 a while back. Looked pretty nice, 50:1 Stihl oil, It has heated the home and fed the sawmill it's whole life. They gave out an extra 2 years warranty if you bought the 1 litre with the saw. Torco SSO and turbo blue race gas in the snowmobile is the best thing i have ever smelt!!


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## Okie294life (Feb 2, 2022)

JRM said:


> Well now I'm down the rabbit hole. Never researched 2 cycle oil, this could be dangerous. What to make of this test? I am always suspicious of a test that is not either blind or 3rd party. Would such a company put their reputation on the line by skewing results? I'd like to think not.....
> 
> Edit....link fixed
> 
> ...


I run red armour and I can attest to that. I like it and it’s red so there’s no guessing about whether it’s mixed or not….I really like that. It seems to be a lot less gummy than other mixes.


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## huskihl (Feb 3, 2022)

Okie294life said:


> I run red armour and I can attest to that. I like it and it’s red so there’s no guessing about whether it’s mixed or not….I really like that. It seems to be a lot less gummy than other mixes.


From what I’ve seen, red armor appears to be one of the best. Unfortunately it’s one of the most expensive also


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## Newmangrove (Feb 3, 2022)

After having read All 57 pages of this discussion, I did not see any mention of the one 2-cycle oil I have been planning to try. Lubrication Engineers 2-cycle oil with their secret Monolec additive.
Monolec is an anit-wear, friction reducing, self regenerating anti-oxidant according to their white paper. Sounds like a special voodoo product, but I was just curious if anyone has any experience with actually using Lubrication Engineers 2-cycle oil produced out of Kansas? Respectfully Submitted..


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## jellyroll (Feb 3, 2022)

Newmangrove said:


> After having read All 57 pages of this discussion, I did not see any mention of the one 2-cycle oil I have been planning to try. Lubrication Engineers 2-cycle oil with their secret Monolec additive.
> Monolec is an anit-wear, friction reducing, self regenerating anti-oxidant according to their white paper. Sounds like a special voodoo product, but I was just curious if anyone has any experience with actually using Lubrication Engineers 2-cycle oil produced out of Kansas? Respectfully Submitted..


If it cost more than $10 per quart no way.


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## Brufab (Mar 9, 2022)

Red armor for the win!  
I run it @32:1 in my big remington saws and @50:1 in my echo saws. So far so good.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 9, 2022)

I'm way too lazy to keep track of two separate mix cans. Everything would get 32:1.


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## ballisticdoughnut (Mar 9, 2022)

I’m currently running belray H1-R at 40:1 with VP T4 which is non ethanol 97 octane. I can’t justify the expense of the T4 long term but I must say my saws are liking it. I will continue to run the H1-R though and 92 octane non ethanol fuel.


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## jellyroll (Mar 10, 2022)

Running the cheapest fuel at the moment here as gas is 4.19 here


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 10, 2022)

clemsonfor said:


> I'm not trying to start an oil war or super long post but I know there is a good chance I do.
> 
> I need to buy some more and want to know what folks are useing. Several years back I used some bel rat, the. Uses a few quarts of amsoil, then got some Lucas but quit when someone told me it left their says dryer and less oily residue than other worse oils so I quit useing it. I got a qt of Raiseman semi syn that I just used up last I mixed. I am going to have to use the last of the Lucas that I have untill I buy something else and was wondering what folks are useing these days.


Since I'm in Europe/Romania, I use Motul 2T 800 off road synthetic. Couldn't be more happy. Although those brands you mention above are probably just as good if not better!


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 10, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Running the cheapest fuel at the moment here as gas is 4.19 here


Wait for a few days. It's gonna be at least $5 dollars a gallon. We in romania allready pay $6.5 US dollar equivalent in Ron for a gallon.(it was 7.2 ron per 1 liter of gas,could get to 10-12 ron per liter any day now... Thats $10 US dollars for a gallon...)


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## Tomos770 (Mar 10, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Wait for a few days. It's gonna be at least $5 dollars a gallon. We in romania allready pay $6.5 US dollar equivalent in Ron for a gallon.(it was 7.2 ron per 1 liter of gas,could get to 10-12 ron per liter any day now... Thats $10 US dollars for a gallon...)


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## camel2019 (Mar 10, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> I run Dominator in my air-cooled 2-stroke '74 Yamaha RD350. I've got a pile of money in that engine - I did my research in '09 and picked the best oil I could find. Saber would've worked great as a premix too, but I wanted to keep the OE oil injection, and Saber was a bit too thick. Also, the pump was designed to run at 50:1 or heavier - Dominator was the perfect oil for that. I've run the bike 6k HARD miles over the years, and compression is still triple digits cold, exactly what it was after the rebuild break-in period was done.
> 
> View attachment 960649


Got the same engine that’s going to end up in my hardtail chopper build just bc I have a 2 stroke addiction.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 10, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> View attachment 971895


We always have LPG  
Too bad all big trucks that are important run on diesel... And no matter how you drive a TIR semi truck it will still "drink" 40-45 liters per 100kms. Only with no trailer it might use "only" 19 liters per 100kms , as did a 2015 Mercedes Actros 1851 (510 hp truck) tested by me from Ulm germany to Buzau county (about 1800kms)...
Nevermind 8x4 tipper trucks ,used for gravels ,sand or asphalt road works/bulding... Those things rarely go below 50 liters per 100kms... 
Even a brand new Ford 4142 tipper truck 8x4 manual gearbox doesn't "drinks" under 50 liters per 100kms... No matter how nice I drive that thing...


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## Tomos770 (Mar 10, 2022)

I have always tought that truck burns between 30-35 L/100km....


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 10, 2022)

taking into account the weight of the loaded truck and it is not much 50L, only the price in a moment will be 2x higher


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 10, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> I have always tought that truck burns between 30-35 L/100km....


 No way. Big semitrucks called TIR here in europe have a fuel consumption when loaded with the legal weight of 20-22 tons will burn on long trips 40 liters of fuel diesel or more ,if the roads goes through mountains. The rest of the big 40 tons trucks will be above 45-50 liters of diesel fuel almost always. That ford 4142 with 500kms on the dash so basically new truck had on a 400kms trip an average consumption of 35-38 liters of diesel fuel per 100kms. And was empty all the time,since I was going to a highway building site. It weighs 16,7 tons empty. The most I seen on the scale(since its mandatory to weigh in before you get the transport papers)was 51,8 tons of dense pure granit rock gravel ,not a spec of normal soil or anything lighter in that load. It barely moved even with going through all 16 gears with half gears included. 
There are bigger trucks like Volvo FMX with 5 axles wich will weigh in 70 tons or more when fully loaded. 
Its all down to the volume of the tipper ,that ford 4142 has 20 cubic meter load space, Volvo FMX has even more space in the back. Most 8x4 tippers are 18 cubic meters loading space. Trucking industry will be the most affected by this war. After that everything in supermarkets or stores will get expensive too. Including food because agriculture is done with diesel trucks or equipment... 
Things can only go bad in the future.


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## jellyroll (Mar 10, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> View attachment 971895


Most of us americans are getting paid next to nothing at work imagine $7.25 per hour and $1.50 is taken from your pay every hour for taxes. 
That is the current rate where i live i am only bringing home right now $200 per week.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 10, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Most of us americans are getting paid next to nothing at work imagine $7.25 per hour and $1.50 is taken from your pay every hour for taxes.
> That is the current rate where i live i am only bringing home right now $200 per week.


That is low pay considering living costs! And now this ukraine war, you're definitely gonna have a hard time! As many others!


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## jellyroll (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> That is low pay considering living costs! And now this ukraine war, you're definitely gonna have a hard time! As many others!


I work two jobs and drive a scooter to and from work most days to save money. Glad i didn't have to pay fuel bill on the truck used by the public works department 70 gallons of it went into the fuel tank and the rest in the transfer tank.
This is diesel cost here.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 11, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> I work two jobs and drive a scooter to and from work most days to save money. Glad i didn't have to pay fuel bill on the truck used by the public works department 70 gallons of it went into the fuel tank and the rest in the transfer tank.
> This is diesel cost here.
> View attachment 972210


Well lets see if my math is right 890 divided by 166 gallons that's $5,36 US dollars per gallon of diesel fuel! 
We pay here in Buzau county ,Romania, now as in TODAY 8 ron per liter of diesel fuel(cheapest type),multiply by 4 since we want the price for 1 gallon and = 32 ron. One US dollar costs today 4,48 ron. 32 ron divided by 4,48 = 7,14 US dollars for 1 gallon of "cheapest" diesel fuel in Romania... And monthly salary is around 2000 Ron here  (that's around $400US dollars). 
If those $hitheads in Russia don't shake hands, go home and forget about "THE WAR", it might well and very soon turn into a $10 US dollar for 1 gallon of diesel fuel... 
But I do hope they're "ambitious" enough and exchange some nukes ,since that's what Vladimir(the other vladimir) JEW Zelenskiy seems to want from the other Vladimir BASTARD PUTIN ,ambitious little christian orthodox CRIMINAL... 
I really honestly want them to nuke themselves. About time if you ask me!


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## Tomos770 (Mar 11, 2022)

Regarding the minimal vage.....its "au pair" with ours.....5.5eur/h +/- taxes....and you end up with 950-980euros per month..... 

Regarding the war....in 1991 we had balkan wars here.....for me.....Vladimir is copy of Miloševič....to the last detail. 

You as Romanian would understand this picture....  hope that this will be his destiny at the end!


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 11, 2022)

For him there is no longer enough punishment, now he is also afraid of his own people because he seems to "pay" for him / I am not surprised


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## jellyroll (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Well lets see if my math is right 890 divided by 166 gallons that's $5,36 US dollars per gallon of diesel fuel!
> We pay here in Buzau county ,Romania, now as in TODAY 8 ron per liter of diesel fuel(cheapest type),multiply by 4 since we want the price for 1 gallon and = 32 ron. One US dollar costs today 4,48 ron. 32 ron divided by 4,48 = 7,14 US dollars for 1 gallon of "cheapest" diesel fuel in Romania... And monthly salary is around 2000 Ron here  (that's around $400US dollars).
> If those $hitheads in Russia don't shake hands, go home and forget about "THE WAR", it might well and very soon turn into a $10 US dollar for 1 gallon of diesel fuel...
> But I do hope they're "ambitious" enough and *exchange some nukes* ,since that's what Vladimir(the other vladimir) JEW Zelenskiy seems to want from the other Vladimir BASTARD PUTIN ,ambitious little christian orthodox CRIMINAL...
> I really honestly want them to nuke themselves. About time if you ask me!


You don't want a nuclear exchange the fall out would wipe out half of Europe and plus it is stupid to even consider the thought.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 11, 2022)

Why did pu ... n disarm Ukraine from nuclear weapons earlier? Why was it not proposed to the Ruthenians?


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 11, 2022)

FCKPUTIN z Kyiv https://fr24.com/FCKPUTIN/2b196bf0


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 11, 2022)

Anyway: since this is a 2 stroke oil topic , how about some project farm "stuff" about 2 stroke oil?


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 11, 2022)

why is he testing 2t oil on a 4t slow speed engine?


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## Tomos770 (Mar 11, 2022)

He is testing it that we wont need.....


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 11, 2022)

Piotr Pakuła said:


> why is he testing 2t oil on a 4t slow speed engine?


he's an ex-army guy. obviously for fun ,out of curiosity and because subscribers too were curios what would be the "outcome". if that engine would seize solid not much would be lost since its a cheap engine. but the knowledge would be there for others to use or... NOT use


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 11, 2022)

oil in the crankcase 4t, for sure, was also / I meant that at the revolutions of the mower and at a lower temperature, this 2t oil will leave a completely different residue


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## bwalker (Mar 11, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Most of us americans are getting paid next to nothing at work imagine $7.25 per hour and $1.50 is taken from your pay every hour for taxes.
> That is the current rate where i live i am only bringing home right now $200 per week.


I would move.
And if you are indeed making $7.50 an hour you pay zero income taxes and in fact the .government gives you free money in the form of the earned income tax credit.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 11, 2022)

Looks like the average American wage is $19/hr. McDonalds here pays $13/hr, and they are BEGGING for people willing to show up, on time, and sober. The Taco Bell that just got built in town had to close down again two months after opening because they didn't have staff. I made more than $7.5/hr in high school. Not trying to be rude, but Bwalker is right, move the hell out of that area if that's all the better wages are. Most of the country is most certainly not like that.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 11, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Looks like the average American wage is $19/hr. McDonalds here pays $13/hr, and they are BEGGING for people willing to show up, on time, and sober. The Taco Bell that just got built in town had to close down again two months after opening because they didn't have staff. I made more than $7.5/hr in high school. Not trying to be rude, but Bwalker is right, move the hell out of that area if that's all the better wages are. Most of the country is most certainly not like that.


What do you mean by "sober"? Are a lot of americans that heavy drinkers or my understanding of english is that bad? At $13 to $19 US dollars for an hour of work you'd find A LOT of romanians willing to work that job  . Now,I don't know what is the cost of living in that area or in USA generally speaking. But it sounds liveable life ,at a glance. Probably better then in Romania. Plus you don't have russian soldiers around ready to invade you or drop rockets on your house


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> What do you mean by "sober"? Are a lot of americans that heavy drinkers or my understanding of english is that bad? At $13 to $19 US dollars for an hour of work you'd find A LOT of romanians willing to work that job  . Now,I don't know what is the cost of living in that area or in USA generally speaking. But it sounds liveable life ,at a glance. Probably better then in Romania. Plus you don't have russian soldiers around ready to invade you or drop rockets on your house


Painting with a very broad brush here, but entry level jobs are generally held by high school or maybe college kids, who are just getting started in the working world, or by older folks who have made zero progress in their lives and are still working minimum wage jobs, and who have usually made other poor life decisions, such as substance abuse.

This isn't everyone, as I said I was painting with a very broad brush. You'll see plenty of hateful comments towards me for this, no doubt. There are plenty of legit and respectable reasons for adults with skills and drive to be working minimum wage jobs, but they won't stay there long.

At this point, coming out of years of unemployment in many industries due to covid lockdowns, and for a lot of folks unemployment is still running merrily along, I have a huge amount of respect for anyone who is working right now, at any job.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 11, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Painting with a very broad brush here, but entry level jobs are generally held by high school or maybe college kids, who are just getting started in the working world, or by older folks who have made zero progress in their lives and are still working minimum wage jobs, and who have usually made other poor life decisions, such as substance abuse.
> 
> This isn't everyone, as I said I was painting with a very broad brush. You'll see plenty of hateful comments towards me for this, no doubt. There are plenty of legit and respectable reasons for adults with skills and drive to be working minimum wage jobs, but they won't stay there long.
> 
> At this point, coming out of years of unemployment in many industries due to covid lockdowns, and for a lot of folks unemployment is still running merrily along, I have a huge amount of respect for anyone who is working right now, at any job.


Around here one can't afford to stay unemployed long; you can't live without a job of any kind. You're at risk of litterally dieing with no job or unwilling to work for various reasons. Unless you're into "fresh girls" from broken families and pimping them in Germany. Then your "problems" are of other kind,like avoid police and what next BMW M series should I get?  
The very succesfull pimps drive S class ,M5s or one a Lamborghini aventador... 
20 years ago wanted to be a truck driver in USA,was willing to leave all relatives/familly for that. Until I realised I can't start many mornings without them ,and not going insane litterally... I'm better off poor but with loved ones around!


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Around here one can't afford to stay unemployed long; you can't live without a job of any kind. You're at risk of litterally dieing with no job or unwilling to work for various reasons.


I have strong opinions on this, but this is the wrong thread and section for them. I'll bow out of the discussion at this point.


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## bwalker (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> What do you mean by "sober"? Are a lot of americans that heavy drinkers or my understanding of english is that bad? At $13 to $19 US dollars for an hour of work you'd find A LOT of romanians willing to work that job  . Now,I don't know what is the cost of living in that area or in USA generally speaking. But it sounds liveable life ,at a glance. Probably better then in Romania. Plus you don't have russian soldiers around ready to invade you or drop rockets on your house


McDonalds is paying $15 per hour in my area and offering college scholarships in addition. A guy can make $25-30 pretty easily doing manual labor. And everyone is hiring.
The place I work starts laborers out at $26 and change and Operators at $42.
The point is there are opportunities out there. You just have to go where they are.


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## bwalker (Mar 11, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Around here one can't afford to stay unemployed long; you can't live without a job of any kind. You're at risk of litterally dieing with no job or unwilling to work for various reasons. Unless you're into "fresh girls" from broken families and pimping them in Germany. Then your "problems" are of other kind,like avoid police and what next BMW M series should I get?
> The very succesfull pimps drive S class ,M5s or one a Lamborghini aventador...
> 20 years ago wanted to be a truck driver in USA,was willing to leave all relatives/familly for that. Until I realised I can't start many mornings without them ,and not going insane litterally... I'm better off poor but with loved ones around!


In America there are people that go their entire lives without working. That's part of the reason there is such a demand for labor from Mexico. Say what you want but those immigrants work.


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## OM617YOTA (Mar 11, 2022)

Not just individual people, sometimes there are multiple generations in a family who don't work.

Edit: So much for bowing out.

Anyone heard of using 10:1 biodiesel for two stroke mix?


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## bwalker (Mar 11, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Not just individual people, sometimes there are multiple generations in a family who don't work.


Exactly! The parents teach the children to be professional scammers.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Mar 11, 2022)

It's a trade off. If you live where wages are high, the area usually has a high cost of living, is run by morons, the infrastructure beats the crap out of your vehicles which cost you even more money, people are generally miserable and rude, the weather sucks 8 months out of the year, and road salt finishes what the crappy roads couldn't on your wheeled investment. I'd be much happier making $4 an hour in a state that didn't steal every nickel you earned both directly and indirectly, and with people who still fear God and believe in our Nation AS FOUNDED.

That's all I've got to say about that.


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## bwalker (Mar 11, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> It's a trade off. If you live where wages are high, the area usually has a high cost of living, is run by morons, the infrastructure beats the crap out of your vehicles which cost you even more money, people are generally miserable and rude, the weather sucks 8 months out of the year, and road salt finishes what the crappy roads couldn't on your wheeled investment. I'd be much happier making $4 an hour in a state that didn't steal every nickel you earned both directly and indirectly, and with people who still fear God and believe in our Nation AS FOUNDED.
> 
> That's all I've got to say about that.


Let me guess. You live in the midwest?


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> In America there are people that go their entire lives without working. That's part of the reason there is such a demand for labor from Mexico. Say what you want but those immigrants work.


Ok, now you lost me... What do you mean "entire lives without working"?! How is that possible? Does money drop from sky and one just has to collect it?
What you say it's not possible around here where I live. It would very likely be taken as a joke if you would tell that to someone here...


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Not just individual people, sometimes there are multiple generations in a family who don't work.
> 
> Edit: So much for bowing out.
> 
> Anyone heard of using 10:1 biodiesel for two stroke mix?


10:1 that's 10 parts gas to 1 of biodiesel? 
Could be do-able. But why?! 
Project Farm tested quite a few oils on 2 stroke engines! I see no point in this. Why damage or fully destroy a good engine by using what isn't recommended?! I was carefull even in an old cast iron inline six BMW from an era when engines were built for reliability ,using fully synthetic oils ,in engine,gearbox or differential(ok the 4,44 ratio diff was a hard one,requiring old specs oil... Not necesarilly synthetic)... 
For me it's much easier to use what the manufacturer recommends. After all THEY spent millions of dollars or euros to design build and test the thing I'm buying... Think they know "a bit" more then me regarding the mechanical stuff... As is the oil lubrication requirements!


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Mar 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> Let me guess. You live in the midwest?


1,000 miles east of there ... and north, unfortunately.


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## 2100hpS10 (Mar 12, 2022)

Czed said:


> Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil 40/1
> View attachment 925184
> 
> At least 8 gallons through this 372
> The tree monkey turned me on to this 4 year's ago.


Do I need to put my glasses on or is there just one piston ring on your piston?
Schaeffers has good oil, use it in my race engine. I didn't know they had 2 stroke oil.


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## K-techcowboy (Mar 12, 2022)

clemsonfor said:


> I'm not trying to start an oil war or super long post but I know there is a good chance I do.
> 
> I need to buy some more and want to know what folks are useing. Several years back I used some bel rat, the. Uses a few quarts of amsoil, then got some Lucas but quit when someone told me it left their says dryer and less oily residue than other worse oils so I quit useing it. I got a qt of Raiseman semi syn that I just used up last I mixed. I am going to have to use the last of the Lucas that I have untill I buy something else and was wondering what folks are useing these days.


Klotz super techniplate or motul 800 2t are my go to oils. I'm a motorcycle technician and ex pro license holder on 2-stroke dirtbikes thats seen just about every brand of premix known to man be put through its paces and any of the klotz stuff is pretty remarkable and if anyone's ever bein to the track and smelt that sweet classic 2-stroke race bike exhaust smell there useing klotz. It also will mix with methanol if you build hot saws or mixture of gas and nitro.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> 1,000 miles east of there ... and north, unfortunately.


soo ,you're in Canada?!


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

2100hpS10 said:


> Do I need to put my glasses on or is there just one piston ring on your piston?
> Schaeffers has good oil, use it in my race engine. I didn't know they had 2 stroke oil.


looks like 2 rings ,one obvious ,the other on top "hidden"  don't think it would run with only one ring but beein designed for two rings


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## bwalker (Mar 12, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> 1,000 miles east of there ... and north, unfortunately.


You need to go west or south.


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## bwalker (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Ok, now you lost me... What do you mean "entire lives without working"?! How is that possible? Does money drop from sky and one just has to collect it?
> What you say it's not possible around here where I live. It would very likely be taken as a joke if you would tell that to someone here...


The government takes care of them cradle to grave.


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## anlrolfe (Mar 12, 2022)

Sometimes I use green oil
Sometimes I use blue oil
Anything is better than dropping back old school and using SAE-30-nd unless you've got a mosquito problem.
I'm more worried about readjusting the carb for current weather conditions than quibbling over oil. Remember, "OLD gas is BAD gas..."


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

bwalker said:


> The government takes care of them cradle to grave.


Why?! Are they suffering from some debilitating handicap? Or what could be the motivation to keep around individuals like that? To me they're a waste of food and resources,generally speaking. No positive contribution to the society they live in. Or is one and I fail to see it?


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## bwalker (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Why?! Are they suffering from some debilitating handicap? Or what could be the motivation to keep around individuals like that? To me they're a waste of food and resources,generally speaking. No positive contribution to the society they live in. Or is one and I fail to see it?


Just how our entitlement society is... and nothing you said is incorrect. We have a system that encourages social parasitism.


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> soo ,you're in Canada?!


LOL, no. Poor writing on my part. I should've said, "1000 miles east .... and A LITTLE north of there ..."

MA = Massachusetts. Where Freedom began ... and now goes to die.


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## Lionsfan (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Why?! Are they suffering from some debilitating handicap? Or what could be the motivation to keep around individuals like that? To me they're a waste of food and resources,generally speaking. No positive contribution to the society they live in. Or is one and I fail to see it?


 Because they're allowed to vote, and you better believe they know who's on their side come election day.


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## Woody912 (Mar 12, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> Most of us americans are getting paid next to nothing at work imagine $7.25 per hour and $1.50 is taken from your pay every hour for taxes.
> That is the current rate where i live i am only bringing home right now $200 per week.


McDonalds here pays $15 an hour. I'd be moving


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## Tomos770 (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Why?! Are they suffering from some debilitating handicap? Or what could be the motivation to keep around individuals like that? To me they're a waste of food and resources,generally speaking. No positive contribution to the society they live in. Or is one and I fail to see it?


You dont have them in Romania?


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 12, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> You dont have them in Romania?



Tigani/ gypsies. I don't consider them romanian citizens!


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## Tomos770 (Mar 12, 2022)

They dont care, since they dont recognize nationality and borders...

...they are here, there, everywhere.....


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## JimR (Mar 12, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Well lets see if my math is right 890 divided by 166 gallons that's $5,36 US dollars per gallon of diesel fuel!
> We pay here in Buzau county ,Romania, now as in TODAY 8 ron per liter of diesel fuel(cheapest type),multiply by 4 since we want the price for 1 gallon and = 32 ron. One US dollar costs today 4,48 ron. 32 ron divided by 4,48 = 7,14 US dollars for 1 gallon of "cheapest" diesel fuel in Romania... And monthly salary is around 2000 Ron here  (that's around $400US dollars).
> If those $hitheads in Russia don't shake hands, go home and forget about "THE WAR", it might well and very soon turn into a $10 US dollar for 1 gallon of diesel fuel...
> But I do hope they're "ambitious" enough and exchange some nukes ,since that's what Vladimir(the other vladimir) JEW Zelenskiy seems to want from the other Vladimir BASTARD PUTIN ,ambitious little christian orthodox CRIMINAL...
> I really honestly want them to nuke themselves. About time if you ask me!


I was in Romania 3 years ago on business. I was totally surprised to see that I could get a really nice twin pork chop meal or a prime rib meal for under $10.00. A large bottle of beer was $1.50 and an awesome piece of triple chocolate layer cake was under $2.00. The cost of food in nice restaurants was extremely affordable.


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## Piotr Pakuła (Mar 13, 2022)

the same will be said by the US army, which is near me ;-)


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## Brufab (Mar 13, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> What do you mean by "sober"? Are a lot of americans that heavy drinkers or my understanding of english is that bad? At $13 to $19 US dollars for an hour of work you'd find A LOT of romanians willing to work that job  . Now,I don't know what is the cost of living in that area or in USA generally speaking. But it sounds liveable life ,at a glance. Probably better then in Romania. Plus you don't have russian soldiers around ready to invade you or drop rockets on your house


If you can't make atleast 500$ take home pay then you will be living at home with your family or renting 'a room' somewhere. 
Rent 600-900 mortgage 800-1200
Food 300
Car payment 300
Car insurance 150
Cell ph 100
1 Credit card 100
Cable/internet 100
Just this puts you close to paycheck to paycheck


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## Brufab (Mar 13, 2022)

Brufab said:


> If you can't make atleast 500$ take home pay then you will be living at home with your family or renting 'a room' somewhere.
> Rent 600-900 mortgage 800-1200
> Food 300
> Car payment 300
> ...


I forgot gas at 4-5$ a gallon.. 15$ hr @40hrs will have people living in their parents basement


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## Brufab (Mar 13, 2022)

K-techcowboy said:


> Klotz super techniplate or motul 800 2t are my go to oils. I'm a motorcycle technician and ex pro license holder on 2-stroke dirtbikes thats seen just about every brand of premix known to man be put through its paces and any of the klotz stuff is pretty remarkable and if anyone's ever bein to the track and smelt that sweet classic 2-stroke race bike exhaust smell there useing klotz. It also will mix with methanol if you build hot saws or mixture of gas and nitro.


Thanks k-tech. I always wondered what brand made that smell.


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## Tomos770 (Mar 13, 2022)

Brufab said:


> I forgot gas at 4-5$ a gallon.. 15$ hr @40hrs will have people living in their parents basement


23days(this month) X 8hrs X 15€\h = 2760euros brutto.....

Is 1760euros/mont over here after taxes (no kids no other tax relief no..)








Izračun plače 2021 | Data d. o. o. - Podjetništvo, ustanovitev podjetja


Kalkulator za izračun plače iz mesečnega bruto zneska; prikaz prispevkov iz plače, neto plača, celotna obremenitev delodajalca.




data.si






Dodatki = extras.... ie transport to work (you dont have that over there)
Strošek delodajalca = how much must boss pay to the state (3254 euros)

But we have free health ensurance (still its better if you are ensured some extra...ie side ensurance)



60% of working people here recieves minimum vage.... ~ 970euros netto +/-

Brutto-brutto (what boss pays to the state= 3254e) vs netto (1784e)... Is around 40-44%

Even more if you count in taxes when you buy stuff (gasoline food alcohol etc).....


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 13, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> 23days(this month) X 8hrs X 15€\h = 2760euros brutto.....
> 
> Is 1760euros/mont over here after taxes (no kids no other tax relief no..)
> 
> ...


 Better then Romania


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## Tomos770 (Mar 13, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Better then Romania


Yes.....and no!

It all depends......ekhm....whenever I go to Bosnia on vacation (with friends)....they down there have even less.....but still have somehow easier living.....less stress.....more grill 

La dolce vita


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## Smitty Smithsonite (Mar 13, 2022)

Brufab said:


> I forgot gas at 4-5$ a gallon.. 15$ hr @40hrs will have people living in their parents basement


Around these parts, people will just claim disability or get welfare and get ALL that paid for (except gasoline), PLUS deal drugs, and make $150k a year. That's why you see brand new $80,000 Escalades with $6000 worth of wheels and stereo system parked at the Social Security / unemployment building in Worcester, MA. Been that way ever since I can remember.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 13, 2022)

Smitty Smithsonite said:


> Around these parts, people will just claim disability or get welfare and get ALL that paid for (except gasoline), PLUS deal drugs, and make $150k a year. That's why you see brand new $80,000 Escalades with $6000 worth of wheels and stereo system parked at the Social Security / unemployment building in Worcester, MA. Been that way ever since I can remember.


Really? I'm emigrating  
Do they need truck drivers?


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## Lionsfan (Mar 13, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Really? I'm emigrating
> Do they need truck drivers?


You bet your ass we need truck drivers. Company I drive for is like a revolving door.


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## Gabriel1982 (Mar 13, 2022)

Lionsfan said:


> You bet your ass we need truck drivers. Company I drive for is like a revolving door.


Why "revolving door"? The drivers come and go? Why? What truck you drive and what distances daily ? You made me curios


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## Lionsfan (Mar 13, 2022)

Gabriel1982 said:


> Why "revolving door"? The drivers come and go? Why? What truck you drive and what distances daily ? You made me curios


There are so many good paying jobs available right now that guys never stick around, constantly chasing rainbows I guess. I drive tractor/trailer, flatbed trailers. I'll run anywhere from 200-600 miles ( 320-965 kilometers) in a day as the schedule and loads change from one day to the next.


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## macs1 (Mar 14, 2022)

Amen!


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## K-techcowboy (Mar 15, 2022)

Brufab said:


> Thanks k-tech. I always wondered what brand made that smell.


Not a problem my friend. I run all my stuff at 32:1 mixture too. Just like my KX250


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## Tomos770 (May 25, 2022)

Found interesting info about Stihl Ultra (if that is true?) 






Switched Stihl MS170 to Amsoil Saber, now white smoke?


I'm not a fan of Amsoil for several reasons, so might not help any, but I'd use a good brand name oil like Stihl or Echo. There's really no need for exotic oils in 2 cycle engines. I'm not even convinced there's a need in any well maintained, decent condition engine. Take a look over on the...



bobistheoilguy.com







> Here's some trivia for those interested - the Stihl HP Ultra is a vegetable oil made from palm kernel oil. It's a bit dirtier than some of the other offerings but is still (no pun intended) a fabulous product


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## bwalker (May 25, 2022)

Tomos770 said:


> Found interesting info about Stihl Ultra (if that is true?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it's not a vegetable oil at all. It's a TMP ester based oil that may or may not be made from palm oil.
You can make esters from lots of different fatty oils be reacting them with an acid.


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## jellyroll (Jul 6, 2022)

Been having trouble finding oil at dealers let alone Walmart. So i bought some mag1 universal air cooled at the gas station for 1.99 per bottle. 8 ounces to 2 gallons of 87 E0 and i was off cutting again. rated jaso fb so it shouldn't kill anything


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## OM617YOTA (Jul 6, 2022)

I bought a quart of Yamalube 2R. It's taking it's time getting here.


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## jellyroll (Jul 6, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> I bought a quart of Yamalube 2R. It's taking it's time getting here.


I can't hardly find any 2t oil here. I found a vintage round can of echo 2t oil about a month ago and used it. Smoked like hell but worked fine.


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## OM617YOTA (Jul 6, 2022)

Lots available online.


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## jellyroll (Jul 6, 2022)

OM617YOTA said:


> Lots available online.


can't wait 3-6 weeks on oil i got things that need done.


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## cookies (Jul 6, 2022)

jellyroll said:


> can't wait 3-6 weeks on oil i got things that need done.


VP Racing will directly sell and ship to your door 2 cycle oil and bar oil from a pint up to a 55 gallon drum and every size in between


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## OM617YOTA (Jul 6, 2022)

Check Amazon, everything in a few days. When I said my Yamalube was taking it's time getting to me, I still meant less than a week, instead of a day or two. They have Red Armor, Honda HP2, Husky XP+, plenty of options.


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