# Inexperienced feller looking for advice.



## OH_Varmntr (Dec 18, 2011)

Gologit suggested in another thread of mine to post up some pictures in this forum to get some feedback on getting better at felling techniques.

You can read up on my current job I've taken on. No money is exchanged, I was merely asked if I wanted to clear about a miles worth of ditchbanks for a friend. I said yes, as I will use it for firewood. 

You can view my other thread here...
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/188108-new.htm

There's a lot of smaller trees in bunches of 5 or 6 on a single stump. I've just been dropping the easiest first. By easiest I mean the ones that need to get out of the way before I can drop the others behind them. There's also some "bigger" trees, up to about 2' across. Not big to some of you, but you know what I mean.

Since the ditch is so long I've just been notching and backcutting away to get a lot of wood on the ground as quickly and as safely as possible. Some of them are leaning over the ditch enough that I can't get in front to give it a notch so I just do a single backcut and get away as the tree is going over. Then I'll return to finish it off. Are there safer alternatives to this? 

Here's a few pictures of what I'm up against and the various trees I've been taking down. I'll add more as I have the opportunity to take more pictures. Thanks for any tips in advance!



























There are also videos which can be found in the above thread.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 18, 2011)

why don't you spend some time looking at stumps, etc., on the "falling pics" thread and get some idea of what should be going on, as in, do a little research, and then we can talk. Be safe.


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## PA Plumber (Dec 18, 2011)

Hope the "fallers" don't mind...

Douglas Dent has a farily decent book out "Professional Timber Falling ~ A Procedural Approach." It's not perfect, but most of what he says/draws is quite helpful.

I logged off about 15 acres of Eastern Hemlock (20 some truckloads) a few years ago. This was pulpwood and saw logs combined. Had a couple of wood buyer's sawyers walk through our wood lot and drop a couple of trees. They were kind enough to walk me through felling a couple of times and gave me a couple hours of "help."

I even went to work with on of the buyer's small logging crew for a day, took my own saw/oil/fuel. For payment I got lunch and some very good experience.

For me, books, reading, and watching vids only went so far. Stump time is where all the lessons really sunk in. 
When throwing trees against the lean, my heart still hammers in my chest.


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## bitzer (Dec 18, 2011)

Well the first thing is brushing out your area. Making sure you have decent escape routes and that your trees hit the ground. When you bend a lot of little trees over (springpoles) with the tree you layed on top of them you are creating more dangerous work for yourself. Also sloping backcuts are no good and don't save anything. Take your time and try to get your cuts lined up. Its not a race. Learn from your stumps. I did this and the tree did that. Assess the tree before cutting for lean, dead limbs, etc. Run through possible scenarios in you head. Look up. On and on. There is always a way to put a face in. Just back cutting a tree will make it split out and barberchair. You have a ways to go, but if you keep an open mind and don't get pissed you will learn something.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 18, 2011)

Yes, get the Douglas Dent book. In that book, in addition to teaching basic felling techniques, he shows dangerous situations and says "LEAVE IT!". Or in other words you don't _have_ to cut down every tree. Leave dangerous trees or pull them down with power equipment is the idea.

Get that book here...
Bailey's - Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent

And take the time to clear out an escape route as shown in the following link. Clear out brush and branches on the ground near the tree you are felling so you don't trip on them when running for your life.

Take the time to properly cut each tree (shown in following) so you maintain control of that tree. Even small trees can have a lot of weight.

If a tree is leaning the opposite direction of where you want it to fall, take the time to attach a come along to pull it the desired direction. Make sure it will go where you want. If the tree gets hung up in another tree, then you have a BIG unsafe problem!

And ALWAYS use the chain brake before walking one foot with your chainsaw. Especially when limbing. Easy to trip and fall. Best if the chain is not moving and your trigger finger will not make it move when you fall on the chainsaw!

Speaking of limbing, beware of and learn about "springpoles". These are limbs which will whack you in the face or balls if you suddenly cut them! Instead make several small cuts to first relieve the tension.

Keep in mind that if a tree is down and you cut off all the limbs on one side, the tree may roll over and you may get whacked in the head by a limb still attached to the tree. Or the trunk may roll over and squish your toes. And cut on the uphill side in case the log wants to roll downhill. Keep in mind limbs under a log may be supporting the log. Take a moment to think about what is going to happen before cutting. Lots of energy in trees even when on the ground.

Here are some basics on proper felling...
G1958 Felling, Limbing and Bucking Trees | University of Missouri Extension

Then click on the things in the pictures at the next OSHA link. Learning these things can keep you out of the hospital...
Logging eTool - Manual Operations


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## forestryworks (Dec 18, 2011)

Step 1: You're either a faller or you ain't; a feller is just a regular fella.

Step 2: No more sloping backcuts.

Step 3: Practice, practice, practice.


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## RandyMac (Dec 18, 2011)

"Inexperienced feller"
LOL!


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 18, 2011)

Here is a picture of a stump with some nice "hinge wood". That is the part of the tree not cut which keeps the falling tree in a controlled fall. Works just like the hinge on a door!

View attachment 212184


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 18, 2011)

The in's and out's of felling are many. I'll touch on a few thing's that I use in a felling sequence. 

Read the weather-temperature, wind, precipitation

Read the tree.-balanced, moderate or heavy lean, seems and rot, knots, twisted grain, root flare

Read the surroundings- recognize all potential targets 

Place you bets.-predetermine what falling method is needed and how the tree will react

Set it up.-execute the falling method and sequence of cuts

Read the kerf- this will tell you if what you are doing is working, it's either telling you stop, go, go faster, slow down, or get the hell out

Finnish it off- cut up as far as needed and proceed on the escape route looking up and out.

When I first started precision falling I had to tell myself to slow down, that's when I really became aware that the tree was talking to me as I was executing my cuts. When it happens you need to recognize it and react immediately, when you don't race, you'll see it before it gets you.

Precision before production: Be hard on yourself and cut accurately, each time striving for perfection. Once you are there you can always back it off a bit to ramp up production.


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm not a logger, don't play one on TV, and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Slopinng (slopping, farmer cuts, etc...btw I take umbrage with calling them farmer cuts. Many of us farmers know better!) cuts do nothing to control how the tree will fall, and make wedging near impossible. Wedge on a flat cut, and you're lifting the tree (good), wedge on a sloped cut, and you're trying to push the tree sideways (bad).

Mr Dent may well have a good book, but I haven't read it. I will the next time I order from Baileys. I have read "To Fell A Tree", by Jeff Jepson, and I can say there's some good advice there. Anyone who's read both, please chime in and let me know how they compare.

Get yourself a good brushcutter, as already mentioned. A nice one will take anything 3" or under a lot faster than you can even bend down with the chain saw.

If you can find anyone with timber experience, buy em lunch and some beers afterward, Hands on training beats anything you can learn on the internet. Most of what I know I learned from an old guy who spent his teens and 20s in the woods. The stories alone are worth more than you can pay em.

Good luck with the job, have fun, and above all BE SAFE. Buying propane sux, but if you're too crippled up to carry wood, that's what you'll be doing anyway.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 19, 2011)

I read a bit of your other thread. In it you mentioned something about how you couldn't get the dawgs of the saw up against the tree for your felling cuts. And you were going to make your own...

FYI - I don't _need_ to use the dawgs on my saw for any cuts. I many times make all sorts of cuts without them. Sometimes it is just a "handy" thing to use. But I think I use them more for bucking. Or a back cut. But don't need to. And I have a sharp chain with the "rakers" or "depth gauges" lowered to the correct height. Maybe that is it? Anyway it is like cutting butter with my saw. So I don't need to use any force for the cut. The saw goes right in.

The following Stihl video goes into detail about chain sharpening including the rakers. Also I bring two spare sharp chains for each saw each day. (I always bring a back-up saw.) So I can quickly swap chains if one gets dull.

Stihl "Chain Saw Safety, Operation & Maintenance" video...
STIHL Incorporated USA -- Information -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws

Then I saw how you were having difficulty with the trees right on the edge of the creek bank. For that, I would say you have all the time in the world to think about that and think about some way you can get better footing and do this safer...

Perhaps you could build some sort of sturdy platform with stilts and with non-slip tape where you will stand? Or get galoshes and stand in the water? Or take a shovel and dig out a platform? Perhaps just lay a long 2 x 10 board, with non-slip tape on it, across the creek? Whatever works to make things more safe!

Old time loggers would use "spring boards" in the side of a very large tree...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_PY7SqbD2C...rKLajhYqAA/s1600/BC+blog+46+-+springboard.jpg


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 19, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> why don't you spend some time looking at stumps, etc., on the "falling pics" thread and get some idea of what should be going on, as in, do a little research, and then we can talk. Be safe.



You're right, because asking experienced tree fallers isn't research. 



forestryworks said:


> Step 1: You're either a faller or you ain't; a feller is just a regular fella.
> 
> Step 2: No more sloping backcuts.
> 
> Step 3: Practice, practice, practice.



I'm just a feller. As in fella with an 'er. :hmm3grin2orange:



RandyMac said:


> "Inexperienced feller"
> LOL!



See above. :msp_thumbup:



Nailsbeats said:


> The in's and out's of felling are many. I'll touch on a few thing's that I use in a felling sequence.
> 
> Read the weather-temperature, wind, precipitation
> 
> ...



Thinking back on the trees I put on the ground this weekend, I now see I need to slow down. I've got a thought in my head that I need to get all these down and out before 2013 rolls around and I lose what I haven't hauled out yet. Thank you for your insightful post. 



Billy_Bob said:


> I read a bit of your other thread. In it you mentioned something about how you couldn't get the dawgs of the saw up against the tree for your felling cuts. And you were going to make your own...
> 
> FYI - I don't _need_ to use the dawgs on my saw for any cuts. I many times make all sorts of cuts without them. Sometimes it is just a "handy" thing to use. But I think I use them more for bucking. Or a back cut. But don't need to. And I have a sharp chain with the "rakers" or "depth gauges" lowered to the correct height. Maybe that is it? Anyway it is like cutting butter with my saw. So I don't need to use any force for the cut. The saw goes right in.
> 
> ...




Thank you guys for all your input. Basically I've read that I need to take my time practicing safe, correct cuts using proper cutting techniques. Again thank you and I'll keep it in mind as I do more _research_ and more cutting afield.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 19, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> Here are some basics on proper felling...
> G1958 Felling, Limbing and Bucking Trees | University of Missouri Extension



Apparently they believe it's ok to do a single cut, as long as it's on trees less than 6" in diameter. 
"For trees 6 inches in diameter or less, make one cut through the trunk." 

The only ones I have used that "technique" on have been ones smaller than that. 

I have left a few trees standing that I felt were out of my reach or I felt were too dangerous for me to try my inexperienced hand at cutting down. There is a big elm that is back there that I won't touch. Looks to be hit by lightning once as the trunk is split vertically and all the bark is off of it. I have no idea how that thing will act once I start cutting it. The landowners will use their excavator to push it over and any other trees I leave up.


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## slowp (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm neither a feller nor a faller. Note my signature line. I do know that like Billybob said, when on a steep cutbank, or streambank, make some solid footing to work from. And have your escape routes brushed and figured out before cutting. 

Ooooh, I'm going to utter something and get flamed.

Look for a Game of Logging class perhaps? It won't make you a great faller, but you will learn some safe habits and get a bit of a start on technique and reading the trees. I think there may be more classes in the East than out here. 

A real, genuine, faller also told me that he would never recommend using a saw smaller than a 460 for falling.
He says you may need that extra power once in a while to get out of a bad predicament, as in needing to pour it to the tree to keep it falling. You might want to use that bigger saw.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 19, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Apparently they believe it's ok to do a single cut, as long as it's on trees less than 6" in diameter.
> "For trees 6 inches in diameter or less, make one cut through the trunk.".



Well that is no fun!

One time I had a 3" diameter tree (8 ft. tall) to cut down and made a big production of it for a friend's 5 year old boy. Did the felling cut, then the back cut, then yelled TIMBER!

I think we made the kid wear a hard hat too. He got a big kick out of it, but I think his dad and I had more fun...


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## hammerlogging (Dec 19, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> You're right, because asking experienced tree fallers isn't research. .



you have a long way to go. Its sort of like, "hey, could you real quick tell me how to fly a plane?"

Maybe the firewood forum is where this belongs afterall, a bunch of *fellers* talking about how neat-o it is to cut some wood.

Its good you're asking for some help. The help you need is an experienced faller by your side, to work with you, might I suggest, hand in hand, humming a spritely little tune.

Neat-O.

I'd rather chit chat about some nuances of the graceful art of slamming timber than write a novel. be safe.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 19, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> you have a long way to go. Its sort of like, "hey, could you real quick tell me how to fly a plane?"
> 
> I'm certainly no armchair faller, because we all know they know everything.
> 
> ...



You didn't have to sugar coat it. I've got thick skin. :msp_thumbup:

I've read plenty of posts here to know some of the pro guys have zero tolerance for ignorant firewood cutters like me. But then again, there are many guys here willing to help out a guy like me and to them, I say thank you.

To you, I say thank you for the safe wishes.


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## bitzer (Dec 19, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> you have a long way to go. Its sort of like, "hey, could you real quick tell me how to fly a plane?"
> 
> Maybe the firewood forum is where this belongs afterall, a bunch of *fellers* talking about how neat-o it is to cut some wood.
> 
> ...



Hey Hammer you got a laugh out of me! Holy #### you're a Cash fan?

Early one morning while makin the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed. I stuck that lovin 44 beneath my head.


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## bitzer (Dec 19, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> Here is a picture of a stump with some nice "hinge wood". That is the part of the tree not cut which keeps the falling tree in a controlled fall. Works just like the hinge on a door!
> 
> View attachment 212184




Hey Billy thats more like pull wood. Your face must have been a little tight on that one. Heres some hinge wood for ya!





View attachment 212290


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## PA Plumber (Dec 19, 2011)

Here are some stump shots from a while back... I believe these were in the 24" to 30" range.


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## slowp (Dec 19, 2011)

Accessories:





I leave too thick of hinges. I guess.





The most important accessory:




View attachment 212303
View attachment 212304
View attachment 212305


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## RandyMac (Dec 19, 2011)

Accessories?


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## GASoline71 (Dec 20, 2011)

PA Plumber said:


> Here are some stump shots from a while back... I believe these were in the 24" to 30" range.



You guys use those funny lookin' notch thingies where you cut about your gunnin' cut. 

Gary


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## Gologit (Dec 20, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> You didn't have to sugar coat it. I've got thick skin. :msp_thumbup:
> 
> I've read plenty of posts here to know some of the pro guys have zero tolerance for ignorant firewood cutters like me. But then again, there are many guys here willing to help out a guy like me and to them, I say thank you.
> 
> To you, I say thank you for the safe wishes.



See, I told you there'd be a little flak. But there's some good advice here, too. Most of the guys (and gal) that post on here are experienced and a lot of them make their living with a saw. They'll whack you around a little, kinda like an initiation, but if you truly want to learn falling this is a good place to start.

And we don't consider firewood cutters to be ignorant and we don't look down on them. Well, not _all_ of them anyway.  We've had a few who wandered in here, asked our advice, and then argued with us. Boy, did that get ugly.

Stick around, ask questions, enjoy.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 20, 2011)

Thanks to all who have contributed. I was lead to believe the notch should be a lot deeper than ~1/4 the way into the face of the tree. As you can probably tell in my pictures, I cut mine atleast 1/2 the way through.

Is that so a deeper backcut gives a wedge more leverage on the tree or just because it is safer to have that much more wood holding the tree stable while the backcut is performed?



bitzer said:


> Hey Hammer you got a laugh out of me! Holy #### you're a Cash fan?
> 
> Early one morning while makin the rounds, I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down. I went right home and I went to bed. I stuck that lovin 44 beneath my head.



Got up next mornin and I grabbed that gun, took a shot of cocain and away I run...

HUGE Cash fan. 



Gologit said:


> See, I told you there'd be a little flak. But there's some good advice here, too. Most of the guys (and gal) that post on here are experienced and a lot of them make their living with a saw. They'll whack you around a little, kinda like an initiation, but if you truly want to learn falling this is a good place to start.
> 
> And we don't consider firewood cutters to be ignorant and we don't look down on them. Well, not _all_ of them anyway.  We've had a few who wandered in here, asked our advice, and then argued with us. Boy, did that get ugly.
> 
> Stick around, ask questions, enjoy.



A little flak, but I can handle it. 

I'm smart enough to know not to argue with folks I'm trying to _learn_ from. I'm quite open-minded.


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## PA Plumber (Dec 20, 2011)

GASoline71 said:


> You guys use those funny lookin' notch thingies where you cut about your gunnin' cut.
> 
> Gary



Yep. I tried a Humboldt once. It was on a slope. 

That tree went about 20' to the left of where I wanted it and shot 1/2 way down the ridge.

Scared the pants off of me and ruined a perfectly good Chestnut Oak tree in the process.

I'll stick with a conventional notch until I learn how to fell trees!


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 20, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> ...I was lead to believe the notch should be a lot deeper than ~1/4 the way into the face of the tree. As you can probably tell in my pictures, I cut mine atleast 1/2 the way through.
> 
> Is that so a deeper backcut gives a wedge more leverage on the tree or just because it is safer to have that much more wood holding the tree stable while the backcut is performed?



I've always read the notch should be about 1/3 the way...

Anyway the general idea is that as the tree falls, the hinge will remain connected from the stump to the tree. And keep the tree in control as it falls. (Keep it from flying up and whacking you in the face for example!)


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

1/3 minimum more if needed. I'm from the deep and steep facecut school.


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 20, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Thanks to all who have contributed. I was lead to believe the notch should be a lot deeper than ~1/4 the way into the face of the tree. As you can probably tell in my pictures, I cut mine atleast 1/2 the way through.
> 
> Is that so a deeper backcut gives a wedge more leverage on the tree or just because it is safer to have that much more wood holding the tree stable while the backcut is performed?
> 
> ...





Notching breakdown.

Corners
-The corners of the notch gun or aim the tree.

Openness
-The openness of the notch will tell you at what point in the fall you want the tree to release from the stump. This happens when the notch closes and breaks the hingwood in a leveraging fashion. There is a major preasure spike here that occurs at the hinge, if the backcut is not progressed enough at this point a "barber chair" can result. This is the moment of truth for the faller and takes experience and judgement to execute perfectly. 

Depth
-The depth of the notch will setup the hinge width and also determine how much tension or compression the backcut will be put under. 1/3 diameter or 80% hinge are the general rule here. The deeper you notch the more tension or compression you are putting the back cut under. I'll break this down further
- 1/3 notch standard
- 1/4 or less on leaners (headleaners or backleaners)
- Up to 1/2 on balanced trees, especially usefull in spars 


Backcut breakdown. 

-The height the backcut is made above the apex of the notch is called stump shot. This is a ledge that will help keep a tree on the stump as it may want to kick back at some point in the fall especially if the falling tree strikes another tree. Stumpshot can create hinge height, which will add some strength or holding power to the hinge.


Hinge breakdown.

Hinge height
-Created by the amount of stumpshot used

Hinge width
-Created by the depth of the notch or wherever the notch progression stops on a tree that is out of round. 

Hinge thickness
-Created by the progression of the backcut.


These are some of the in's and out's of general tree felling.


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## indiansprings (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd compare what your doing to what I would consider fence row cleaning in my area. Beside the falling advice that you have received, I'll give you my thoughts on how your attacking the job at hand.
I would refrain from getting a chit load down. It makes it tough to operate, trip hazards, limbs etc. I'm from the school of dropping one or two and cutting it up and piling my brush, cutting one or two more and doing the same thing. It keeps it from getting like a giant version of a game of pick of sticks. get too much down and it just becomes a tough area to work in. Just my take on it, I've done a lot of this type work, imho your going to be working your hiney off for that wood. Be safe/be careful and good cutting.
A lot of good advice has been given on felling, pay attention to what Randy Mac says, and you won't go wrong.


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> Notching breakdown.
> 
> Corners
> -The corners of the notch gun or aim the tree.
> ...



CC&P'ed from a Gov manual?

A 1/4 or less on a headleaner? Oh my, barberchair special.


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> CC&P'ed from a Gov manual?
> 
> A 1/4 or less on a headleaner? Oh my, barberchair special.



No, I wrote it myself.

The 1/4 would usually be accompanied by a bored back cut, thus eliminating the need to race and the chance of a barberchair granted you didn't leave to heavy of a hinge.

If you can get it in deeper and still keep up with the backcut, then by all means.


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

oh, got it, bored.


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## bitzer (Dec 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> CC&P'ed from a Gov manual?
> 
> A 1/4 or less on a headleaner? Oh my, barberchair special.



Thats exactly what I thought. I gun til it moves. You want to get rid of that compression wood. Then bore out some tension wood if its leaning that hard. Thats were watching the top as you're sawing and doing a little reaming in the process to keep the kerf from sitting right away takes a little practice. Correct assesment Macdaddy or shall I call you Mr. Reno? How is Janet these days?



Have fun mr. beats when you're boring behind that 1/4 face and the tree sits down HARD just as you pop through the other side.


Depth/style of face and all the little cuts and pieces removed all have their place in a variety of situations. That BS about it has to be this way and that. Its BS. 

It sure is fun watching the woodwork come alive on these type of threads.


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## forestryworks (Dec 20, 2011)

You should always cut until the tree commits.

Who the hell cuts a 2" holding wood strip on EVERY single tree and then stands there and scratches their ass wondering why the tree is skybound? Oh, the GOL fellas.

Cut 'er up til she goes then use the escape route.


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## madhatte (Dec 20, 2011)

On the one hand, we ARE talking about chainsaws. On the other hand, we ARE talking about chainsaws. 

There's more than one way to do things. Some are just stupider than others. Listen to how the tree wants to do things. Take its suggestions, then adjust accordingly.


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 20, 2011)

bitzer said:


> Thats exactly what I thought. I gun til it moves. You want to get rid of that compression wood. Then bore out some tension wood if its leaning that hard. Thats were watching the top as you're sawing and doing a little reaming in the process to keep the kerf from sitting right away takes a little practice. Correct assesment Macdaddy or shall I call you Mr. Reno? How is Janet these days?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's just some general guide lines buddy, no body said it had to be a certain way, you made that up on your own so get the #### off my back. 

It takes experience and someone by your side with a specific tree being cut down as an example to really put the learning in motion. This computer stuff is meant to put the mind in motion.


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

When you mention a 1/4 facecut, back it up by saying you intend to bore cut, otherwise it can go badly by those with no knowledge or experience.


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## Sport Faller (Dec 20, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> You should always cut until the tree commits.
> 
> Who the hell cuts a 2" holding wood strip on EVERY single tree and then stands there and scratches their ass wondering why the tree is skybound? Oh, the GOL fellas.
> 
> Cut 'er up til she goes then use the escape route.



Damn, if I could get back all that Roger Maris swingin', wedge pounding, expended energy from leaving waaay to much holding wood.......... well, I could probably get up from watching storage wars and fix myself another drink


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

Get one for me Jake.
I been eating aspirin, trying to remember what it was like to run.


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## bitzer (Dec 20, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> It's just some general guide lines buddy, no body said it had to be a certain way, you made that up on your own so get the #### off my back.
> 
> It takes experience and someone by your side with a specific tree being cut down as an example to really put the learning in motion. This computer stuff is meant to put the mind in motion.



When you start giving specific numbers it gives it a certain finality and exact quality. Someone always brings that type of stuff to these type of threads. Nothing personal, just buisness. 1/4 face is not a good idea in my opinon.

Stuff like judging limb weight, not cutting under the lean, watching the top for movement instead of watching your saw, etc. Stuff that keeps you alive and saves you a lot of trouble. All trees have 2 types of lean. Cut the far side off first (compresion side) and get a wedge in there if needeed. Watch the top. Picking a specific target a ways out to gun to. On and on. Critical thinking and common sense. Mistakes and learning from them. Physics.


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## Sport Faller (Dec 20, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Get one for me Jake.
> I been eating aspirin, trying to remember what it was like to run.



Yes Sir, I got Evan Williams Black Label (Cody!, where you at?) you can have it neat, with an ice cube, or with a coca-cola. I even got a Zippo fired up for you to get ahold of the business end of a Backwoods


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## slowp (Dec 20, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Damn, if I could get back all that Roger Maris swingin', wedge pounding, expended energy from leaving waaay to much holding wood.......... well, I could probably get up from watching storage wars and fix myself another drink



Storage wars?

I have the problem of pulling the saw out as soon as the tree starts going over, and the hinge I leave is heavy duty. Then we become Farmerette Loggers and hook up the tree to the tractor to get it on the ground.
Limblock is not our friend. 

My falling is postponed until ski season is over. But I was out there today getting a load of green firewood. :smile2:


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Yes Sir, I got Evan Williams Black Label (Cody!, where you at?) you can have it neat, with an ice cube, or with a coca-cola. I even got a Zippo fired up for you to get ahold of the business end of a Backwoods



In a glass with a drop of water, thanks for the ceegar Jake


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 20, 2011)

bitzer said:


> When you start giving specific numbers it gives it a certain finality and exact quality. Someone always brings that type of stuff to these type of threads. Nothing personal, just buisness. 1/4 face is not a good idea in my opinon.
> 
> Stuff like judging limb weight, not cutting under the lean, watching the top for movement instead of watching your saw, etc. Stuff that keeps you alive and saves you a lot of trouble. All trees have 2 types of lean. Cut the far side off first (compresion side) and get a wedge in there if needeed. Watch the top. Picking a specific target a ways out to gun to. On and on. Critical thinking and common sense. Mistakes and learning from them. Physics.



The numbers are not meant to be a finality, but a starting point.


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## RandyMac (Dec 20, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> The numbers are not meant to be a finality, but a starting point.



Lots of text, but needs details and clarification, anyone who blindly follows such will see trouble.


An alternative to dealing with a headleaner, without the complications of boring for the beginner.

provided by the GaryGoo corporation


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 21, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Lots of text, but needs details and clarification, anyone who blindly follows such will see trouble.
> 
> 
> An alternative to dealing with a headleaner, without the complications of boring for the beginner.
> ...



That'll work too. That's how I was taught before boring was really thought of as an option. It offers that "look at the top" feel that a bore cut doesn't.

A note on the bore cut, it will create maximum momentum if you need to crash a tree through something. The tree takes off quick with maximum innertia.


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## Gologit (Dec 21, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> A note on the bore cut, it will create maximum momentum if you need to crash a tree through something. The tree takes off quick with maximum innertia.



Not in every case.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 21, 2011)

indiansprings said:


> I'd compare what your doing to what I would consider fence row cleaning in my area. Beside the falling advice that you have received, I'll give you my thoughts on how your attacking the job at hand.
> I would refrain from getting a chit load down. It makes it tough to operate, trip hazards, limbs etc. I'm from the school of dropping one or two and cutting it up and piling my brush, cutting one or two more and doing the same thing. It keeps it from getting like a giant version of a game of pick of sticks. get too much down and it just becomes a tough area to work in. Just my take on it, I've done a lot of this type work, imho your going to be working your hiney off for that wood. Be safe/be careful and good cutting.
> A lot of good advice has been given on felling, pay attention to what Randy Mac says, and you won't go wrong.



Perhaps the most useful advice to come through yet.

Cutting till you're done, avoiding barberchair, escape route (esp. with the butt kicking fromg those higher stumps)- pretty imp. too.


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## Greystoke (Dec 21, 2011)

slowp said:


> I'm neither a feller nor a faller. Note my signature line. I do know that like Billybob said, when on a steep cutbank, or streambank, make some solid footing to work from. And have your escape routes brushed and figured out before cutting.
> 
> Ooooh, I'm going to utter something and get flamed.
> 
> ...



A Proffessional Timber Faller is definitely not a truck driver with a chainsaw. A real Timber Faller...is just that, a guy that falls timber for a living for a significant amount of time. I don't really care if I offend any truck drivers out there, or anybody else for that matter...just wanted to clear something up for the inquiring minds on here as to what a real timber faller is, if that is what they are aspiring to do. Evidently Hooktender Keith has not worked around any real timber fallers...after all he is a riggin rat, and there is rarely any respect from them for timber fallers.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 21, 2011)

TIP: When you are logging, you are hauling away the whole log and just bucking (cutting into sections) in very few places. In this case it is advantageous for the hinge wood to break free during the last part of the tree falling to the ground...

And with a chainsaw chain, if it touches the ground while cutting (easy to do while bucking), then this can instantly dull the chain...

With that said, if you are bucking the log for firewood where you fell the tree, you are cutting the log in many places. Lots of opportunity for that chain to hit the ground...

So in that case, if you use a wider notch so the hinge wood does not break after the tree falls, then the base of the tree will remain attached to the stump - and up off the ground - and if you buck the log starting at the top of the tree, then a large portion of the tree will be held off the ground for you by that stump! (No chain dulling.)

Then last cut is to cut that hinge wood to free the remaining piece of wood.


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> A Proffessional Timber Faller is definitely not a truck driver with a chainsaw. A real Timber Faller...is just that, a guy that falls timber for a living for a significant amount of time. I don't really care if I offend any truck drivers out there, or anybody else for that matter...just wanted to clear something up for the inquiring minds on here as to what a real timber faller is, if that is what they are aspiring to do. Evidently Hooktender Keith has not worked around any real timber fallers...after all he is a riggin rat, and there is rarely any respect from them for timber fallers.



It is a humorous quote, which came at a trying time. The "Professionals" had multiplied that day. Buddies of buddies of the fallers were out falling. Because they had multiplied, they had gone beyond the layout. Not out of the unit but beyond the corridor layout. Add snow, bad feet, and a pulled muscle, and the steepest portion of the unit, --I was one cranky forester. I crawled through their fell and buck, marked the corridors out, and mumbled a lot of bad things. It was a bad day. Hooktender Keith was flagging in more trails so they would have an idea of which direction to fall to, and came upon me mumbling and saying bad things. The fallers got a few days off because they put so much on the ground--it is not a good thing to get too far ahead with the cutting in Winter. The yarding caught up quickly, more snow fell, they pulled out. 

Is there no humor in the woods allowed anymore? That line made me laugh on that nasty day.


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## madhatte (Dec 21, 2011)

It's the funny stuff that keeps me in the woods. 

I remember one lousy day working BLM land in the Oregon coast range my partner and I found a vertical canyon <100 foot wide between us and our unit _after_ we'd hiked several miles in. The maps provided for that contract weren't very good and we'd never seen the ground before, and on the unit map it just looked like a stream. There were no contour lines to offer a clue. It became immediately obvious that we weren't crossing that canyon, so we began the hike back to re-plan our strategy. 

That's when the rain started. Of course, this was early-October, coastal Oregon torrential downpour rain, after a sunny morning with "possible" showers forecast. I hate raingear and wear it as seldom as I can, so I was immediately soaked through, alternating between sweaty-hot and shivering cold. About 3/4 of the way back to the truck we broke through to the edge of a clear-cut unit, and what little shelter the canopy had afforded was gone. We stood a few minutes at the edge of the timber and stared at the grey and green ahead of us, not looking forward to the next couple of miles' trek through 8-year-old reprod. 

I got to thinking, "what if some kind of flaky-ass Oregon hippy meditation boojum could lighten the load?" I turn to my partner and go, "Zen camouflage, man -- If _I_ believe it, _they_ will too." He looks perplexed until I start muttering "I am tree. I am tree. I am tree." After a few moments he catches on, and we're both mumbling this mantra in near-hysterics, rain coming down in sheets, the both of us completely drenched. Eventually, I tire of this game, and turn to one of the tall trees at the forest margin, and say to it, "Hey, dude, zat a epicormic branch, or are you just happy to see me?" My partner and I busted up laughing for about a half hour. Then we started walking. Dry clothes were only a couple of hours away, after all.


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## RandyMac (Dec 21, 2011)

Nailsbeats said:


> That'll work too. That's how I was taught before boring was really thought of as an option. It offers that "look at the top" feel that a bore cut doesn't.
> 
> A note on the bore cut, it will create maximum momentum if you need to crash a tree through something. The tree takes off quick with maximum innertia.



Boring behind the hinge came along with the first chainsaws, it has been an option for many decades and is as new as vertical cylinders. There is very little that hasn't been tried already.


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## Greystoke (Dec 21, 2011)

slowp said:


> It is a humorous quote, which came at a trying time. The "Professionals" had multiplied that day. Buddies of buddies of the fallers were out falling. Because they had multiplied, they had gone beyond the layout. Not out of the unit but beyond the corridor layout. Add snow, bad feet, and a pulled muscle, and the steepest portion of the unit, --I was one cranky forester. I crawled through their fell and buck, marked the corridors out, and mumbled a lot of bad things. It was a bad day. Hooktender Keith was flagging in more trails so they would have an idea of which direction to fall to, and came upon me mumbling and saying bad things. The fallers got a few days off because they put so much on the ground--it is not a good thing to get too far ahead with the cutting in Winter. The yarding caught up quickly, more snow fell, they pulled out.
> 
> Is there no humor in the woods allowed anymore? That line made me laugh on that nasty day.



Sure there is humor, but do you really want me to start mocking the forest circus? I could do that all day!


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## slowp (Dec 21, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> Sure there is humor, but do you really want me to start mocking the forest circus? I could do that all day!



And just what do you think I heard all the time? Go ahead, there's nothing I haven't heard (I think) and I can do a bit myself. 

Besides, most of the guys posting here are those gods of the woods--fallers and a little bit of teasing does not hurt, or shouldn't hurt. :smile2:

If it does, I'll try to figure out another clever signature, maybe Sincerely?


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## Greystoke (Dec 21, 2011)

slowp said:


> And just what do you think I heard all the time? Go ahead, there's nothing I haven't heard (I think) and I can do a bit myself.
> 
> Besides, most of the guys posting here are those gods of the woods--fallers and a little bit of teasing does not hurt, or shouldn't hurt. :smile2:
> 
> If it does, I'll try to figure out another clever signature, maybe Sincerely?



Sounds good to me! A little teasin never bothered me, just wanted to point out that REAL Timber Fallers, are Gods


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## Gologit (Dec 21, 2011)

slowp said:


> And just what do you think I heard all the time? Go ahead, there's nothing I haven't heard (I think) and I can do a bit myself.
> 
> Besides, most of the guys posting here are those gods of the woods--fallers and a little bit of teasing does not hurt, or shouldn't hurt. :smile2:
> 
> If it does, I'll try to figure out another clever signature, maybe Sincerely?



That's okay, Hooktender Kieth can say whatever he wants and we'll give it the attention it deserves.
Fallers never pay much attention to hooktenders anyway. And, I gotta confess, some times it's nice to stroll across the landing at 1:30 in the afternoon and make sure the hooktender sees that we're on our way home. We might even lounge around for awhile...you know, doing faller stuff, getting our boots off, putting stuff away, and not being in any hurry to do it. 
If he ignores us, and he usually does, we always make sure to holler at him..."Hey, we're outta here, see you tomorrow".
Besides, a bullbuck told me one time that a hooktender was just the guy that could yell louder than anybody else on the crew. It's true. Everybody should go with their main talent.


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## highrisen (Dec 21, 2011)

You aint hurt yet are ya? Listen for the crack and move in the other direction!


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## highrisen (Dec 21, 2011)

P.S. dont listen to me


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## RandyMac (Dec 21, 2011)

highrisen said:


> P.S. dont listen to me



Duly noted.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 22, 2011)

Hammerlogging mentioned butt kick. Why does a higher stump create a harsher butt kick than a lower stump?

Also, I've been using what appears to be a Humboldt notch, when it looks like a conventional notch would be much easier for me, especially as I'm thinking about cutting lower stumps.

I'd like to find a full wrap for my 360P...

This has surely turned into an interesting thread.


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## RandyMac (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm thinkin' maybe the Hammer meant because the stumps are higher, that perhaps the trunk might motate around some.
I almost always left waist high stumps, 'cause being to close to the ground made me dizzy, you know, bein' a god and all.


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## slowp (Dec 22, 2011)

Gologit said:


> That's okay, Hooktender Kieth can say whatever he wants and we'll give it the attention it deserves.
> Fallers never pay much attention to hooktenders anyway. And, I gotta confess, some times it's nice to stroll across the landing at 1:30 in the afternoon and make sure the hooktender sees that we're on our way home. We might even lounge around for awhile...you know, doing faller stuff, getting our boots off, putting stuff away, and not being in any hurry to do it.
> If he ignores us, and he usually does, we always make sure to holler at him..."Hey, we're outta here, see you tomorrow".
> Besides, a bullbuck told me one time that a hooktender was just the guy that could yell louder than anybody else on the crew. It's true. Everybody should go with their main talent.



Good hooktenders with good crews are seldom seen on the landing. Maybe when rigging up the yarder. They are often harried individuals, having to pack heavy things around and climb trees. Perhaps they caught a glimpse of you while they were up in the tree? Hooktenders have a good grasp of the Stinkeye Concept. One guy wore a white hardhat because it bothered the crew. Note the excellent paint job in the photos.:smile2:










View attachment 212742
View attachment 212743


They get to leave high stumps.

This outfit would have one of the Gods lay out the corridors and pick out the lift trees/stump anchors.
I would dutifully mark the corridors and trees knowing that I would make another climb up (it was downhill yarding) to OK the new trees which the hooktender wanted. I started losing weight on that sale. The hooktender picked trees that were way the hell up--maybe he wanted to get closer to the Gods?


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## Gologit (Dec 22, 2011)

Yup...I'd see them in the brush _and_ on the landing. And they _do_ work hard, I'll give 'em that. I never was on a job where the hooktender climbed. I'm sure there are some who do but I usually saw some younger guy who was doing the rigging up. The hook would always have two or three guys who wanted to learn climbing and could get up the tree good enough to hang a block or two.
'Course, like I said, we didn't usually pay much attention to them. The only time we watched real close was when we noticed a saw get sent down. Then we'd usually watch the fun...or whatever might happen. That was in the days before video cameras. Too bad, too. Sometimes it got really entertaining.

And, just for the record...fallers aren't really Gods. Gods have to work too hard, never get a day off, and get blamed for everything that doesn't go right. 
Royalty might be a better word to describe fallers. Royalty is still at the top of the pecking order but they don't have the same thankless responsibilities as Gods. Royalty gets some time off. And they have serfs to take the blame when things go wrong.
Yeah...Royalty...that's much better than Gods. If you're into titles, that is.


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## RandyMac (Dec 23, 2011)

Royalty is it?
I am known as Emperor Rat Bastard the First on a 12th century wargame site and to a few on AS. 
I earned a reputation as being deliberately ruthless and as dangerous to my allies as I am to enemies.


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## Gologit (Dec 23, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Royalty is it?
> 
> I earned a reputation as being deliberately ruthless and as dangerous to my allies as I am to enemies.



You're from France?


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## RandyMac (Dec 23, 2011)

Gologit said:


> You're from France?



nah, just get irritated when they don't my orders, things happen. besides, the French are only dangerous to themselves.


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## floyd (Dec 23, 2011)

Is the top of that resting on the way down,,,or is that really fast film?


Very good advice here. Makes it easy to overthink this.


Best way to learn is cut alot trees & try not to hit very often.


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## slowp (Dec 23, 2011)

*I am a princess. All girls are. Even if they live in tiny old attics. Even if they dress in rags, even if they aren't pretty, or smart, or young. They're still princesses*.-- Sara Crewe, from the 1995 movie version of _A Little Princess_.

Another story. The two hooktenders and the sleepy forester.

The sleepy forester had not brought coffee with her on what turned out to be a bright and sunny day. She stumbled up the hill after scarfing down a sandwich, to "check stuff". She had seen the chainsaw being sent up the hill on the rigging, but she figured she wouldn't be close to where it was going. She was looking for the godly fallers. 

She was wandering across the hill, yawning, and enjoying the sun. It was fall, and soon her world would be plunged into endless days of drizzle and dankness. She saw two guys, one with an orange hat, starting to fall a tree. She did not have her glasses with her. The glasses might get paint on them, and it was hard to walk with them on. Across the hill she ambled, feeling safe since she was uphill, and the tree would be felled the other way, as that was where the closest corridor was. 

She heard a wedge being slammed on, and then an "Oh ____!" and saw the blurry man figures scampering away from the tree. She was still sleepy and unable to process the details. The tree came her way and she felt the wind of it as it landed with a WHOMP nearby. She continued on her way. 

The two blurry figures were not the royal fallers. They were two hooktenders. That crew was put together when the market crashed. The company had laid off the lowly rigging rats and had a crew of all their hooktenders working instead. They were sheepish, as was she.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 25, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> ...I've been using what appears to be a Humboldt notch, when it looks like a conventional notch would be much easier for me, especially as I'm thinking about cutting lower stumps...



The Humboldt is for logs being sent off to the mill. They want every inch of usable wood to cut lumber. More $$.

For firewood it does not matter. Whatever is easier for you! You can even make it 90 degrees with cuts in the log portion as well as the stump portion (both Humboldt and conventional) to keep the hinge attached after the tree falls. (To make it easier for bucking.)

For stump height, I would ask the property owner what they prefer. (Being nice...) If too low and grass and weeds grow up and cover the stumps everywhere, then people could trip on them or vehicles run into them. So the property owner may prefer they be high enough so they can be seen. Or may not care.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 25, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> The Humboldt is for logs being sent off to the mill. They want every inch of usable wood to cut lumber. More $$.
> 
> For firewood it does not matter. Whatever is easier for you! You can even make it 90 degrees with cuts in the log portion as well as the stump portion (both Humboldt and conventional) to keep the hinge attached after the tree falls. (To make it easier for bucking.)
> 
> For stump height, I would ask the property owner what they prefer. (Being nice...) If too low and grass and weeds grow up and cover the stumps everywhere, then people could trip on them or vehicles run into them. So the property owner may prefer they be high enough so they can be seen. Or may not care.



I was told stump height didn't matter, whichever was easiest for me. I'm just trying to stay away from bending over too much. 

I'm going out to cut tomorrow. Just bucking and limbing since I'll be alone.


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## indiansprings (Dec 25, 2011)

When we do fall timber I always make my cuts about waist high or a little above, just because it is comfortable for my back. Depending on the landowners wishes, we'll almost always go back at the end with some crapped out chains and flush cut them as close as we can. That way if they are brush hogging or driving a truck across their property they won't tear anything up. If the tree was alive I spray the stump with tordon and diesel to kill it. I am going to try to do the swedish candle method on about a 30" oak out away from anything. I'm going to use a big eye bolt to screw into the block portion and lift it out with the loader and pour diesel and old motor oil in it and light it off and see if it will burn the stump out.


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## ryan_marine (Dec 26, 2011)

Come down to Mt. Vernon for a day and I will help you out. There are plenty of trees. Even enough to answer most what if a tree is doing this to help you learn a lot.

Ray


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 26, 2011)

ryan_marine said:


> Come down to Mt. Vernon for a day and I will help you out. There are plenty of trees. Even enough to answer most what if a tree is doing this to help you learn a lot.
> 
> Ray



I appreciate the offer! I'm about 2 hours from you. I'm tucked way up in the NW side right on the border.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 27, 2011)

Went out this morning. Felt like I made some improvement.

I slowed waaay down and paid more attention to what I was doing.

Here's a few stumps from the day...






This one looks like the stump split, but it's bark that's hanging down...





The backcut was a bit too high on this one, but it worked okay.


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## RandyMac (Dec 27, 2011)

Noticeable improvement.
Just a suggestion, go a smidge deeper with the face cut and take a chip off the bottom cut.


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## Gologit (Dec 27, 2011)

BIG improvement.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 27, 2011)

Thank you.

RandyMac, what's the purpose of the chip off the bottom cut?


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## RandyMac (Dec 27, 2011)

That chip's proper term is "snipe" and will cause the butt to jump away from the stump. It provides a clean, straight edge for contact at the stump. It is useful when felling trees with considerable swell or flare at the base.


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## bitzer (Dec 27, 2011)

Nice work man! 

The extra chip is for movement. It keeps everything going. Just like this, but in reverse with a conventional face. 


Crap! Randy beat me to it!







View attachment 213719


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 27, 2011)

Beautiful. Those pictures provides a clear detail of how it works. Thank you. 

A lot of these trees are very straight to the base. Not many with flares but I'll play around with it because these trees are VERY wet in the center. So much so that once some of the trees are over, the water freely flows from the pulled fibers. Once the tree is coming over, the hinge just bends and it barely breaks so I'll play with the snipe to see if it will helps things go smoother.

Thank you guys.


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## slowp (Dec 27, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> That chip's proper term is "snipe" and will cause the butt to jump away from the stump. It provides a clean, straight edge for contact at the stump. It is useful when felling trees with considerable swell or flare at the base.
> ]




This is probably a stooopid question, but would that snipe add any speed? Ooops, I just answered my own question that I was going to ask about limb locked trees but if they can't get going, the snipe is worthless.

Sorry, back to you. Good night all.


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## bitzer (Dec 27, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Beautiful. Those pictures provides a clear detail of how it works. Thank you.
> 
> A lot of these trees are very straight to the base. Not many with flares but I'll play around with it because these trees are VERY wet in the center. So much so that once some of the trees are over, the water freely flows from the pulled fibers. Once the tree is coming over, the hinge just bends and it barely breaks so I'll play with the snipe to see if it will helps things go smoother.
> 
> Thank you guys.



It looks like you are cutting a lot of red (slippery) elm, which means very stringy fibers. Unless you cut them nearly all the way up they will stay on the stump or you have to set the face up for the hinge to break. The snipe should help with that. Those are fun to swing because they stay on the stump forever. Those do like to hold water.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 27, 2011)

3 cheers for improvement! 

I guess that'd be beer, jug wine, and whiskey.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 27, 2011)

bitzer said:


> It looks like you are cutting a lot of red (slippery) elm, which means very stringy fibers. Unless you cut them nearly all the way up they will stay on the stump or you have to set the face up for the hinge to break. The snipe should help with that. Those are fun to swing because they stay on the stump forever. Those do like to hold water.



A lot of these trees have red streaks through them. I think those are mulberry? Anywho, I'm definately going to play with adding a snipe. Can't wait to see how they help.



hammerlogging said:


> 3 cheers for improvement!
> 
> I guess that'd be beer, jug wine, and whiskey.



That would be 2 shots of whiskey, preferrably Crown, and a chaser of Shiner Bock. Not much of wine drinker here...


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## hammerlogging (Dec 27, 2011)

the improvement is drastic, and refreshing. I know I can't take credit for being helpful, but it is most impressive to see the progression on this thread. It appears as though you actually looked and listened and applied, carefully and thoughtfully. Thanks from me for caring and being worth the effort, that at least others showed.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 28, 2011)

hammer, I wasn't going into this to jerk you guys around, that's for sure. When I said I needed advice, I fully intended on listening, learning and applying it. :msp_thumbup:

Thanks for all the advice so far guys/gals. I'm going back today, but I'm going to limb and buck because I'm down a spotter.


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## coastalfaller (Dec 28, 2011)

If I can speak for Hammer, I think where he was coming from is that this site has seen its fair share of the "other" type of people looking for advice. You are certainly the exception, not the rule! Good job!


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## Gologit (Dec 28, 2011)

coastalfaller said:


> If I can speak for Hammer, I think where he was coming from is that this site has seen its fair share of the "other" type of people looking for advice. You are certainly the exception, not the rule! Good job!



Yup. It's really refreshing when somebody asks our advice, takes it, applies it, and then lets us know how things worked out.

Too many times a person asking advice is just asking us for validation on something he's already decided to do. If we don't agree with him, and sometimes we don't, he gets all bent out of shape. Too bad. The collective knowledge and experience in this forum provides a wealth of information.

The OP has done well. He's the kind of person we don't mind helping.


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## coastalfaller (Dec 28, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Yup. It's really refreshing when somebody asks our advice, takes it, applies it, and then lets us know how things worked out.
> 
> Too many times a person asking advice is just asking us for validation on something he's already decided to do. If we don't agree with him, and sometimes we don't, he gets all bent out of shape. Too bad. The collective knowledge and experience in this forum provides a wealth of information.
> 
> The OP has done well. He's the kind of person we don't mind helping.



Absolutely, Bob, well said! Hope things are well.


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## Gologit (Dec 28, 2011)

coastalfaller said:


> Absolutely, Bob, well said! Hope things are well.



Things are great. If nothing horrible happens I'll be fully retired by the middle of June. Except for a few little side jobs. :smile2:

I always said that I'd keep working until that 660 that Treeslingr did for me wore out but I think that darn thing is going to run forever. Maybe I'll just keep it for a pet.


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## coastalfaller (Dec 28, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Things are great. If nothing horrible happens I'll be fully retired by the middle of June. Except for a few little side jobs. :smile2:
> 
> I always said that I'd keep working until that 660 that Treeslingr did for me wore out but I think that darn thing is going to run forever. Maybe I'll just keep it for a pet.



Haha! Right on, congratulations!You'll have to take it out every now and then to keep the sawdust moving through the veins though!


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 28, 2011)

Gologit said:


> The collective knowledge and experience in this forum provides a wealth of information.



Yes, it's awesome! It's one thing to read about doing something and the many different ways to do it. But it's a completely other thing to discuss it with folks who do it day in and day out, who know what works and when to use it, why it works, and most importantly, how to make it work.

You guys/gals are awesome. I can totally understand what you mean when it comes to helping people who don't really want your _help_. I moderated a 4 wheeler forum for a while and there were people who had no idea which end of a wrench to use, yet they were splaying useless information telling people how to do things. Granted working on 4 wheelers isn't always life or death, but you can understand what I'm saying. 

I'm glad I'm not one of "those guys".


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## Dalmatian90 (Dec 28, 2011)

(Firewood dude interjecting here...)

One thing I've been doing OH is trying to make more a "game" out of it to see how accurate I can be. Not just "I want it to go in that direction" but "I want it right exactly there." Saw the trick of using a wedge as a target on the bore cut thread and I think I'll try that with the next round of trees I have to drop. It looks like a good training wheel idea for those of us who aren't masters.

Something I noticed big time this year compared to a couple years back is I cut really flat now. I was NEVER as bad as your first cuts here  but I often had a small amount of unplanned slope to them...I'm really not sure when I crossed the line, and whether it's just muscle memory or I'm doing a better job squaring up the saw to the tree with my eye before I commit to the cut, but even stuff I *don't* care about like simply taking stumps down to ground level when I'm done are coming out flat level. Part of that is looking at the whole saw and not just my bar when I'm lining things up.

There's also "sight lines" on the chainsaws on both the starter and sprocket cover sides:






Those let you check to make sure you're making your cuts perpendicular to the direction that you intend to drop the tree which helps avoid having face cut be slightly off or having your hinge end up thicker on one end then the other (yeah, I know there's some advanced tricks that sometimes you want the hinge to be uneven.)

Here's a pic I found through Google of a guy checking to make sure the sighting lines parallel the direction he wants the tree to fall:


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 28, 2011)

Dalmatian90 said:


> ...Saw the trick of using a wedge as a target on the bore cut thread and I think I'll try that with the next round of trees I have to drop...



More fun is an upright empty soda pop can, then the tree falls on it and squishes it!


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

Dalmation, no excuses for why my stumps were pure ####e to begin with other than I just didn't care. All I wanted to do was get wood on the ground and I wasn't really _trying_ to do it properly. I'm no longer in that mindset though.

I've seen the sightlines but haven't used them. One more thing to throw in there sometime to practice with.

I've learned a _LOT_ so for now I'm going to try to hone my "skills" and go from there. I'll keep adding pics along the way to show progress.


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## indiansprings (Dec 29, 2011)

Big improvement, great you come to the right place, ole Randy Mac and the rest of the west coast crew provide great advice on falling. Don't get in to much of a hurry, be safe.

Thank God they banned HBRN before he could have given some of his "professional" advice. lol


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

LOL they finally banned him?


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## avason (Dec 29, 2011)

Dalmatian90 said:


> (Firewood dude interjecting here...)
> 
> One thing I've been doing OH is trying to make more a "game" out of it to see how accurate I can be. Not just "I want it to go in that direction" but "I want it right exactly there." Saw the trick of using a wedge as a target on the bore cut thread and I think I'll try that with the next round of trees I have to drop. It looks like a good training wheel idea for those of us who aren't masters.
> 
> ...



Gotta be honest. I've been cutting for a few years now and have heard of sight lines but never knew where they were. Thanks!


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## RandyMac (Dec 29, 2011)

On most old saws the sight lines were prominent.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

I played with the sightlines today and found it much easier to get my facecuts to line up at the same point now. Also makes it easier to keep the backcut parallel with the facecuts. I'm definately going to pay more attention to these now.

My brother in law and I went back today and cut for about 4 more hours. We are actually much much further that I had originally thought. He's in town with his wife for a few days and is a firewood cutter as well, but doesn't do near as much as I do. 

We came across a big cottonwood. I need a bigger bar now, bigger saw would be better  I cut a snipe in the facecut and tried that out. Here's the video. Ole creaky thing. It was fun.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wzplg6VObkY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doesn't look very big.





Snipe...





Hinge.





How does it look? I had to make multiple cuts in order to complete the face cuts and backcut. My bar was short by about 8".

Another tree.





Stump. Comments?





We took another tree down and after it hit the creekbottom it cracked open at a crotch. Apparently some honeybees made it home. I had no idea. They weren't very excited, chalk that up to the cold weather. Would have sucked if it was summer and they were up to their full potential though. I'd like to take them so they don't die but I haven't the slightest clue on how to treat them.


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## Sport Faller (Dec 29, 2011)

Form one Certed Firewood Hack to another, I think it looks pretty good, yeah if it was about 30 degrees warmer you mighta been runnin like you had a dog chasing you :msp_tongue:


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

I was trying to figure out how to change the line below my username. How do you do it?!

When the tree hit I heard a buzz but didn't think anything of it. Guess there's always one feisty little bastard amongst the colony. I bet his name was BuzzyMac.


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## Sport Faller (Dec 29, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> I was trying to figure out how to change the line below my username. How do you do it?!
> 
> When the tree hit I heard a buzz but didn't think anything of it. Guess there's always one feisty little bastard amongst the colony. I bet his name was BuzzyMac.



Go to the Market and click on User Title and you should be good to go


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

Oh, oh, it's magic! Ya kno-o-ow...

Thanks buddy.


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## Billy_Bob (Dec 29, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> ...We took another tree down and after it hit the creekbottom it cracked open at a crotch. Apparently some honeybees made it home. I had no idea. They weren't very excited, chalk that up to the cold weather. Would have sucked if it was summer and they were up to their full potential though. I'd like to take them so they don't die but I haven't the slightest clue on how to treat them.



That is a "bee tree"!

The way you "treat them" is to run for your life! (Along that escape route you should have cleared. :smile2: )


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## Gologit (Dec 29, 2011)

Bees...another one of God's little door-prizes for timber fallers.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 29, 2011)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is a "bee tree"!
> 
> The way you "treat them" is to run for your life! (Along that escape route you should have cleared. :smile2: )



Two escape routes, to be exact. Dry ones atleast. Had another one but it required going knee deep in the creek. Guess that'd be better than 6ft deep in the ground :msp_razz:


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## hammerlogging (Dec 29, 2011)

It looks like your horizontal bypassed your vertical face cut. This causes the face to close on the kirf, not the face, and can cause excessive fiber pull or a barberchair tendency. Make sure your face cuts match.


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## bitzer (Dec 29, 2011)

Thats what I was thinking too. Bypassed cuts are fun when you are trying to make them though.

OH Var- When putting your face in what cut do you make first?


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## Steve NW WI (Dec 30, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Form one Certed Firewood Hack to another, I think it looks pretty good, yeah if it was about 30 degrees warmer you mighta been runnin like you had a dog chasing you :msp_tongue:



Gawdammit, now I gotta go and get certified? Jeez, it was sooo much easier just being a rep ho.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 30, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> It looks like your horizontal bypassed your vertical face cut. This causes the face to close on the kirf, not the face, and can cause excessive fiber pull or a barberchair tendency. Make sure your face cuts match.



Ahh I see. If it closes on the kerf then it will lift the tree a bit as it's going over and pull the fibers? 



bitzer said:


> Thats what I was thinking too. Bypassed cuts are fun when you are trying to make them though.
> 
> OH Var- When putting your face in what cut do you make first?



I put my vertical cut in first then try to match the horizontal cut. A lot of times I'm not level with my horizontal cut and I end up having to cut my vertical deeper to complete the cuts. Most of the time they don't match but I'm getter better at it the more I do.



Steve NW WI said:


> Gawdammit, now I gotta go and get certified? Jeez, it was sooo much easier just being a rep ho.



I'm passing the torch, so now you're certified, hack! :msp_thumbsup:


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## Sport Faller (Dec 30, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Ahh I see. If it closes on the kerf then it will lift the tree a bit as it's going over and pull the fibers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



we're gonna have to change our titles to OG certed wood hack, to differentiate between the founding fathers and the progeny :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 30, 2011)

"Certifier of Certified Firewood Hack Certifiers"


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## forestryworks (Dec 30, 2011)

I'm off to be a firewood hack. Gonna use the horizontal zip cut method.


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## Sport Faller (Dec 30, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> I'm off to be a firewood hack. Gonna use the horizontal zip cut method.



Dude as long as you cut your backcut in at a 45 you don't need no fancy assed facecut

but seriously, you gonna get some video or what?


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## floyd (Dec 30, 2011)

I hate finding bald face hornet nests. Yellow jackets are just a bother to me.

I enjoy laying in the yard by the house & watching the bald face hornets & yellow jackets cruising about a foot off the ground looking for something to eat.


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## forestryworks (Dec 30, 2011)

bigskyjake said:


> Dude as long as you cut your backcut in at a 45 you don't need no fancy assed facecut
> 
> but seriously, you gonna get some video or what?



Out of 95 or so trees, only 3 or 4 had the ol' face and backcut. The rest, just zipped em down.

Clearcutting trees for a guy, leaving waist high stumps. A D7 will be coming in next year. Should be easy work for the dozer man.

These trees aren't video worthy, lol.


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## OH_Varmntr (Dec 30, 2011)

A D7? That's it?


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## Sport Faller (Dec 30, 2011)

forestryworks said:


> Out of 95 or so trees, only 3 or 4 had the ol' face and backcut. The rest, just zipped em down.
> 
> Clearcutting trees for a guy, leaving waist high stumps. A D7 will be coming in next year. Should be easy work for the dozer man.
> 
> These trees aren't video worthy, lol.



Awwwww man, I havent got to cut jack #### down in like a month, I just needed some fresh video to keep me going, at least tell me you took the 660 and cut like 3 or 4 trees at a time, at least gimme that much


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## bitzer (Dec 30, 2011)

OH_Varmntr said:


> Ahh I see. If it closes on the kerf then it will lift the tree a bit as it's going over and pull the fibers?
> 
> 
> 
> I put my vertical cut in first then try to match the horizontal cut. A lot of times I'm not level with my horizontal cut and I end up having to cut my vertical deeper to complete the cuts. Most of the time they don't match but I'm getter better at it the more I do.



If you put your horizontal in first you can gun to the lay a lot easier. Then start at your corner and try to come up short at the other corner on your diagonal. If cutting the diagonal this way, when the gun hits your target your piece should fall out. If it doesn't, stop cutting before you've gone too far. If it pops early well just cut it again. Re-cutting can run you out of room in a hurry in small timber.


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