# Starting a small farm...



## Diy mechanic mike

So my parents just bought a piece of property and were beginning to develope it how we want it set up.... Were wanting to grow multiple kinds of berries, also some cherry and pawpaw trees on contour terrace/swale setup. Being that were wanting to farm on the hillside because the terrain is rolling hills and lots of erosion issues, so the terrace/swales being on contour will eliminate the erosion issues and store the rain we get in the ground/irrigation ponds. Any way "tmi" already haha, were clearing lots of smaller brush grow up from someone logging here n there about 10-15 years ago so if you can imagine how that would look after logging and no maintenance, quite a task let me tell you lol. But how do you go from timber stand to field of cover crop for nitrogen. like best tractor attachments for ground work to plant and harvest the said cover crop. thinking rye,crimson clover,alfalfa being that they are all nitrogen fixers great for erosion. Basically what were wanting to do as we clear more sapling wooded area for farming were bushhogging it to a grass maintenance and then wanting to plant cover crop for a couple years til we can afford a dozer cut the terrace/swales on contour then we will have a good cover crop top soil sod so we have cover crop growing in our berry area rather then weeds growing at random. So fyi we do have a tractor not a glamorous one either but she works like 10 men so that's a bit of a back saver. It's a massey ferguson 3165 (industrial 165 heavy front axle) has a front end loader and the shuttle shift so 12 speed trans. And we also have a 6 way 3pt blade, two bottom plow, and bushhog. Obviously items for clearing/minor dirt work. So what I'm thinking would be best for tilling/planting the seed on our hillside would be a rotary harrow(after we bushhog to a grass turf), any of you that have experience with these have any Input on this working ok for lightly tilling so we dont just loose our top layer to erosion and I figured it would leave aerated holes in soil so if I rigged up a seeder behind the rotary harrow it would poke holes perfectly for the cover crop seed to go into instead of just being washed down hill during a rain. Any experienced input would be greatly appreciated as I'm just getting into it and need as much good info as possible so I can do it right the first go.....
Thanks mike


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## Ryan'smilling

Hey Mike, quite the project you're taking on.

I'm gonna shoot you a private message. I have a friend who lives in South Eastern Missouri who is knowledgeable about this stuff. He's got a lot of experience putting in prairie in that area.


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## 066blaster

not sure if you started your project or not? i would not worry to much about a cover crop for adding Nitrogen, as your crops will need supplemental Nitrogen anyway. I would be more concerned with killing existing weeds and grass. I would spray it good with round up or a generic brand. wait a few weeks untill you see some growth starting and spray again. wait a couple weeks and then start your tilling. for perennials (strawberries, asparagus, raspberries, ect) we keep the ground black for a year before planting. this really helps prevent major weed issues, as well as keeps it loose and easy to work with. when we have an area that we a letting rest for awhile we plant winter rye mid September, it comes up in a few days if there is some moisture in the ground. around June the next year we cut it with a haybine or sickle mower, and rake and bale. you could mow with a brush hog at anytime in spring if your not baling it.


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## Diy mechanic mike

We have started project before i even made the post haha. it was all grown up not even much access pathways which is what we have mostly got done already. We have cleared a few patches here and there but we got a big patch(around a acre) down in the bottom semi flat area next to flashflood creek/erosion ditch which we planted 50ish black walnut trees in late October on 10' grid pattern(for timber not fruit) for a retirement plan for when im 60-70 years old(I'm 26 now). Obviously as we clear more lower area near ditch/creek ill plant more trees. But we are gonna be growing the berries and other produce on a south southwest facing hillside. That were gonna be putting swales/terraces on contour as a water catchment system for the crops and to eliminate erosion issues. The ocean has been getting so much of our top soil cuz of erosion its crazy. But our swales/terraces will be spaced 15ft apart so we can plant cover crops in between rows and get two passes with tractor to bale it, kind of a agroforestry technique but instead of timber trees and cover crops were doing berries/produce and cover crops and walnut trees in low lying more flashflood prone area but we dont actually have standing water just a big sheet of water draining, while its raining because of the funnel shape our land creates. the rain can only drain one direction. 

But were trying to stay on the organic side of farming and i think instead of killing the **** grass and all your beneifical soil microbes with that cancer causeing round-up id rather just disc the area and seed it with cover crops to get that established for a year maybe reseed second year and once that cover crop turf is established third year then we will cut swales and obviously reseed inbetween and only grow clover on the swales with berries/produce. Were just now clearing the canopy thats been established for 10+ years so there really isnt much **** grass mostly saplings and sticker bushes lol. If we sprayed and killed everything on our hillside like you said we would loose so much top soil in that time of waiting for it to die it would be devastating, imagine 2 acres of hillside with absolutly nothing growing on it to absorb the rain for as long as you were explaining(seemed like a 2month process with all that waiting weeks), pssht anybody down for a muddy slipnslide event with mud wrestling at the bottom lol cuz that is what would happen hear. i live in the mississippi valley of southern illinois and we get lots of rain you could probably pull your plan off out west where there burning up from no rain/moisture but not here. We did have a bit of grass growing in a area on the hillside were clearing now that we had clear last summer which was just random weeds and some wild ceral rye i think or just a survivor from 20+ years ago when i think it was cattle pasture. But there wasnt much growing and thats how i know how much soil we would loose if we went a month or more of 2 acres being cleared with nothing growing cuz we lost alot of soil in the little area that nothing was growing in this summer. 

Are there any cover crops you can plant in spring or early summer? Cuz were gonna have the whole 2 acre hillside mostly clear by spring and are looking into stuff to plant to keep the erosion to a minimum this summer. And we dont really wanna be mowing weeds in there cuz of spreading seed so be best if we get something beneficial growing with the few established weeds we got, then as summer goes on our beneficial stuff can dominate and once fall gets here disc it all and reseed with rye and clover and that next year we should have a good base to maintain to start the swale project. Were not trying to rush the whole process, we want it done the right way and using chemicals is never the way cuz there is always another chemical to fix the issues the other chemical caused and so on so forth why do you think commerical farming is slowly fading, cuz the chemicals cost to much to really make much at end of year with all the different things they need to just get a crop outta their field. Its like big pharma with pills but in the farming world.... the corporate ways need to stop screwing everything they can.


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## Ryan'smilling

Before you go cutting swales and terraces on a property that isn't in an arid climate, you should check out keyline design. It's not his design, but Richard Perkins has a lot of good YouTube videos and a book on laying out your property in a great way that concentrates on water management. Swales are great in some places, but they're not parallel and that's pretty problematic in an agricultural endeavor of any scale. Plus, swales are pretty expensive.


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## 066blaster

Diy mechanic mike said:


> We have started project before i even made the post haha. it was all grown up not even much access pathways which is what we have mostly got done already. We have cleared a few patches here and there but we got a big patch(around a acre) down in the bottom semi flat area next to flashflood creek/erosion ditch which we planted 50ish black walnut trees in late October on 10' grid pattern(for timber not fruit) for a retirement plan for when im 60-70 years old(I'm 26 now). Obviously as we clear more lower area near ditch/creek ill plant more trees. But we are gonna be growing the berries and other produce on a south southwest facing hillside. That were gonna be putting swales/terraces on contour as a water catchment system for the crops and to eliminate erosion issues. The ocean has been getting so much of our top soil cuz of erosion its crazy. But our swales/terraces will be spaced 15ft apart so we can plant cover crops in between rows and get two passes with tractor to bale it, kind of a agroforestry technique but instead of timber trees and cover crops were doing berries/produce and cover crops and walnut trees in low lying more flashflood prone area but we dont actually have standing water just a big sheet of water draining, while its raining because of the funnel shape our land creates. the rain can only drain one direction.
> 
> But were trying to stay on the organic side of farming and i think instead of killing the **** grass and all your beneifical soil microbes with that cancer causeing round-up id rather just disc the area and seed it with cover crops to get that established for a year maybe reseed second year and once that cover crop turf is established third year then we will cut swales and obviously reseed inbetween and only grow clover on the swales with berries/produce. Were just now clearing the canopy thats been established for 10+ years so there really isnt much **** grass mostly saplings and sticker bushes lol. If we sprayed and killed everything on our hillside like you said we would loose so much top soil in that time of waiting for it to die it would be devastating, imagine 2 acres of hillside with absolutly nothing growing on it to absorb the rain for as long as you were explaining(seemed like a 2month process with all that waiting weeks), pssht anybody down for a muddy slipnslide event with mud wrestling at the bottom lol cuz that is what would happen hear. i live in the mississippi valley of southern illinois and we get lots of rain you could probably pull your plan off out west where there burning up from no rain/moisture but not here. We did have a bit of grass growing in a area on the hillside were clearing now that we had clear last summer which was just random weeds and some wild ceral rye i think or just a survivor from 20+ years ago when i think it was cattle pasture. But there wasnt much growing and thats how i know how much soil we would loose if we went a month or more of 2 acres being cleared with nothing growing cuz we lost alot of soil in the little area that nothing was growing in this summer.
> 
> Are there any cover crops you can plant in spring or early summer? Cuz were gonna have the whole 2 acre hillside mostly clear by spring and are looking into stuff to plant to keep the erosion to a minimum this summer. And we dont really wanna be mowing weeds in there cuz of spreading seed so be best if we get something beneficial growing with the few established weeds we got, then as summer goes on our beneficial stuff can dominate and once fall gets here disc it all and reseed with rye and clover and that next year we should have a good base to maintain to start the swale project. Were not trying to rush the whole process, we want it done the right way and using chemicals is never the way cuz there is always another chemical to fix the issues the other chemical caused and so on so forth why do you think commerical farming is slowly fading, cuz the chemicals cost to much to really make much at end of year with all the different things they need to just get a crop outta their field. Its like big pharma with pills but in the farming world.... the corporate ways need to stop screwing everything they can.


Not sure what kind of soil you have??? I'm in southeast Wi . it's pretty hilly by us , but every farmer here sprays and tills their land. It takes a major rain storm at just the wrong time to create any major erosion. If you want to farm organically, thats great, but keep in mind probably 99% of the produce people eat is not grown organically. Most crops, unfortunately are almost impossible to grow organically. 
Insects, weeds, fungus, bacteria,rodents,birds,deer,rabbits are all a problem. Have you ever observed people buying produce? they inspect it!! smell it, squeeze it, turn it upside down. If there is any blemish or imperfection, they put it down and grab a different one and start the inspection process over again. We inspect all of the produce we sell and if there is a blemish it gets thrown out, or possibly sold for a 1/4 of what it should sell for. So if there is a major insect problem or disease your whole crop can be worthless. Even with using chemicals it's not easy. I hate spraying, it's time consuming, expensive, and yes I hate the exposure to the chemicals. It also has to be done correctly or you can damage your crops. 
I think some people think there is some evil chemist farmer mixing stuff together to try to poison people. Thats not true. The chemicals are FDA and EPA approved and have strict guidelines to their use. 
I guess I'm not sure if you are growing just for yourself and family or to sell? but i have been involved in produce since I was 4 and just turned 43 and still have plenty of problems. There are new insects and diseases all the time ,followed by new tools and chemicals to combat them. I won't even get started on Excessive rain, drought, hail, frost, winter kill, Excessive heat, sunburned fruit. 
I have seen many a organic "farmer" come and go. It's usually A first generation farmer who knows nothing about growing anything, and doesn't have any of the expensive equipment needed. 
Good luck to you, It's not easy.


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## Diy mechanic mike

We have seen every video and got richard perkins book, he definatly has it going on for sure. But our hills are definatly steeper and more rolling from erosion then his, which is why we were gonna introduce the key line concept in between our swale rows where we will be growing cover crop to harvest. So we would be able to make two guaranteed passes with tractor between swales for ripping key lines for even more water catchment but the swales are gonna be filling to a certain point and then drain into a small pond for storage in case of drought. So basically the swales will store water for the berries/produce/fruit trees and the keylines will store water for the cover crops. once the cover crop cant take anymore it drains into the aquifer storage from the swales and over flow into small pond. Like i said we get alot of rain so we were gonna go full blast water catchment cuz of our hills grade and our climate. since we are on a premium ssw facing hill our cover crop and produce should just explode with growth with all that water storage/sun and ground shouldnt be to mushy downhill of swales. 

Check out "geoff lawton" on youtube. 

And were not trying to go large scale here, eventually 6-8 acre market garden, but were only planning to farm the 2 acre hillside at first to get all the kinks out of water catchment system and pest issues manageable via companion planting and organic pesticides then to conquor/manage other 4-6 acres. But i get you cant not spray a thing on your produce but you dont have to use deadly chemicals that are known to cause cancer. Fyi round up has just recently been sued for it and its probably not the first health lawsuit they have had against them. But i hope you atleast try an organic garden for your own produce for your health to fight off any cancer your exposed to. Cuz i totally get most ppl are stuck in the material world bubble and want perfect looking food but that same group of most ppl are also on loads of pharmaceuticals and a list of health issues. You can thank corporate america for letting big pharma pay off the fda to look other way and cause problems so big pharma can make more money to fill the big dogs pockets who run this place. Damn commies. Lol.


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## Diy mechanic mike

@ ryan, what exactly do you mean swales are expensive? Maintaining? Or the making of them?


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## 066blaster

I'm not convinced yet that round up(glyphosate) causes cancer. I mean I really hope it doesn't, but it just seems like there are just a bunch of lawyers trying to get rich off it. I know there is one guy that won a lawsuit ,but it will go to appeals court and get thrown out before the guy gets a dime. even if they determine it can cause cancer , I doubt it will ever be pulled from the market. It might have to be stated on the label.. There are plenty of known carcinogens that are sold to consumers everyday.
I also believe if it was pulled from the market millions of people around the world would starve to death. And you also have to consider the chemicals glyphosate replaced,,they were a lot worse. Sorry, not trying to get in a debate with you. I just see so much stuff on Facebook about roundup, and people that don't have a clue about making stupid comments. some people think it is injected into to corn and wheat, some people think farmers spray it on fruits and vegetables before harvest, some think it is an insecticide. The public is really being mislead by lawyers.


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## Diy mechanic mike

Yeah your probably right about it getting thrown out because big pharma will provide the best defense lawyer for the round up company to keep causing issues for ppl so big pharma can treat it and keep making billions off pharmaceuticals. And i know you dont wanna spray atleast the last 2-3 weeks before harvesting but you dont think that the spray soaks into the skin of fruits/veggies while spraying for months on end even tho you rinse off the residue? And i know carcinogens are sold to ppl everyday like tobacco (big pharmas right hand man), but do you think thats ok? I guess for population control but is the round up company gonna have to start running ads like tobacco are doing to get ppl to stop by showing all the terrible things it causes to get us to realize were killing ourselves? But hey its america were free to kill ourselves how ever we want, even if it is to the other guys financial gain. Money can make alot of corrupt things happen if you dont already know that, look at our celebrity president haha what a clown. "The biggest and best clown around", might i add for the sake of his ego... wouldnt wanna undermind him any. And i stay away from social media, its mostly crap and ppl arguing about whos life is better or who life they would like to live. I personally think the government is to thank for the misleading. Look at cannabis they been telling us its in same class as lsd,meth,and heroin and no health beneifits for ever. Can you grow lsd,meth, or heroin? Didnt think so so how is this classification valid? And what are we up to now 25 states with medical use. But alcohol, any health beneifits there? I get the government needs there fire water to fall asleep at night after a long day of manipulating ppl to believe their lies but damn cant we just blaze one for our aches and pains instead of taking a pain pill and signing the addition dotted line? its just sick how society has reached this level of corruption. Im honestly scared for our country.


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## Ryan'smilling

Diy mechanic mike said:


> @ ryan, what exactly do you mean swales are expensive? Maintaining? Or the making of them?



Yep, I meant the making of them. Earth moving in general is expensive. But maintenance becomes more of a hassle too. Obviously they're tough to mow and you limit the routes you have to travel over the farm, but if you plan out their placement well, that may not be an issue.


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## Diy mechanic mike

Well it could be expensive if your paying someone to come in to do it, but were planning to do the excavation ourselves so its done exactly how we invision it. Which i get that doesnt make it free but definatly half the expense. We have done some small scale swales at our house the old fashion way with hand tools and used our chickens to pack the loose soil making the swales burm and it worked great and now they have a rain water catchment to drink from. Making my life easier now that i dont have to worry so much about their access to water. Were gonna be planting some cover crop their this spring for the chickens once its harvestable. We have alot of pashion for this so we were willing to do a few "hardway" swales to get some experience with them before we go big. We also did a few using our bottom plow on tractor which worked really great, cuz our backs didnt hurt that night haha. But those are pretty small scale versions compared to what we are wanting. If we could find a jumbo bottom plow that our tractor could handle pulling that would be the idea i think but obviously a bulldozer with 6way blade would be the ticket. And at this point in time we cant afford one, but were getting pretty heavy into tree work for the materials, mulch/firewood for greenhouses and possibly logs for milling with our alaskian mill. And obviously the decent money you can make doing removals. We also have a woodchipper and dump truck for that stuff. So hopefully in the next few years we can manage to set some funds aside for a dozer.


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## Diy mechanic mike

And mowing/ maintaining grass on burms wont be a huge problem til i hit 60 cuz as crazy as it sounds i actually like weedeating. We got a couple weedeaters with the handle bars and backpack straps and omg idk why they even make regular weedeaters anymore. Id never go back. I hear alot of ppl complain about them but thats cuz they havnt found the right way to adjust straps or they just really like wearing their shoulders out. With the backpack straps and handle bars you actually get a core workout from twisting at hips rather then straining shoulders and arms.


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## CentaurG2

We farm organic. No fertilizers or pesticides. Weeds are a constant battle and you literally need to plant twice as much as counter losses to disease and pests but it can be done and you can generate quality produce that actually tastes good. Now can you make money at it??


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## muddstopper

CentaurG2 said:


> We farm organic. No fertilizers or pesticides. Weeds are a constant battle and you literally need to plant twice as much as counter losses to disease and pests but it can be done and you can generate quality produce that actually tastes good. Now can you make money at it??


I will disagree with having to plant more to get more. I got 6 bushel of whitehalf runners off a 2oft row. Tomatoes rottening because I couldnt eat or can all of them. 150lbs of potatoes off a 50ft row and that was after eating on them all summer. Still eating zucchini bread my wife made back in season. Corn, onions, squash, okra cukes, bell and cayanne peppers, I had more than enough and gave lots to my neighbors. All this grown on waste dirt from a highway contruction project.

Everybody has their own methods for organic growing. Some methods work better than others and some methods are limited simply because of where someone lives. I will pass on a few things that have worked for me in the past. For weed control, nothing is easier, cheaper and more effective than mulching. Once my plants are up, I spread generous amounts of mulch around the plants. This keeps the weeds from coming up. I use mostly wood chips I have from right of way clearings. I get the power company to dump truck loads on my property and than turn the material whenever the mood strikes me. They will dump enough in one year to keep me in quality mulch for years. A side benefit is that as these wood chips breakdown, they add necessary carbon back to the soil, along with other nutrients. Google remial wood chips for more info. Another benefit is moisture retention. I like to fill the valleys between my potato rows after hilling. I get taters big as footballs. They grow into the mulch and dont get sunburnt as they do when growing in just dirt. After the taters are dug and garden harvested, I simply till the mulch into the soil. about the only thing I add to my garden is dolomitic lime. If your soil dont have it, you got to add it, pure and simple. 

Insect control is more insect prevention. Bugs breed and reproduce very fast. Start with a few and you have a big problem in just a couple weeks. The best way to control the bugs is to stop them before they get started. Chickens and hogs are your best tool to do this with. Of course you cant raise hogs and chickens in your garden, but if your garden has a fence then putting the animals in as soon as you have harvested the garden will get rid of most of the bugs, their eggs, and lots of weed seeds that wont be their next growing season. Also chickens and hogs are great areators and will scratch and root looking for those grubs that turn into potato and japanese beetles and they do a excellent job of mixing your soil with your mulch. also the benefit of added manure. Now I realize not everybody can grow chickens and hogs in their neighborhood, but if you can, its a good way to control weeds and bugs for the next growing season. Plus you get fresh eggs or fresh chicken and pork if you know how to butcher your own.

My biggest pest are deer. My 2000sqft garden has a 4ft wove wire fence around it. In the spring after planting my garden, I stretch string across the garden, from fence post to fence post. I go back and run more string at angles, sort of making the strings pattern diamond shaped. I then go back and tie the bright colored flagging tape to the string. Letting it hang down just about 2ft. The flags move with even the slightest breeze. I found that not only does the string and flags keep the deer out, but crows dont like the flags either. Havent seen a single deer track in the garden during growing season, but after I cut the strings down, tracks where there the next day..


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## sonny580

A big venture and sorry to say that you will run into big problems, also very expensive ones. You will have to focus on a few things at a time then when you master these, move to the next level. Insects and weeds will be your worst nightmare. Also you will need lots of fertilizer because plants have to eat just like humans. What you are doing will take years to do and will be very expensive up front but may pay off. Just not anytime soon! thanks; sonny580


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## muddstopper

You havent said how big a piece of property or how much of it you plan to tend. I have seen folks make terrances and plant trees on the top. Sound like a good plan, until you start trying to keep the grass and weeds off the steep part of the terrance. Personally, if you can mow or maintain the land as it lays I would forget doing terrance and swales you cant drive a tractor over. You can still plant your fruit trees in rows like on a terrance, only now you can drive around the trees with equipment. As for clearing, consider putting a fence around the area to be cleared and put a few goats inside the fence. You will be surprised as to how much underbrush they will get rid of. If you cut a tree down, they will eat most of the limbs and debark the larger stems. I have seen them eat the bark off fallen pine trees, including any small limbs, leaving it laying like a white skeleton. Best part is goats dont care much for grass and the grass will grow thicker putting a stop to any erosion. I you plan on any cattle or horses, just put them in the fence with the goats. The goats will eat the weeds and the horses and cows will eat the grass and cut any mowing or bushhoging down to nearly nothing. Also, goat meat is eaten by more folks than beef and selling goats isnt a problem.


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## Diy mechanic mike

I did say 2 acre hillside to start and then additional 4-6 acre hillside after we master the 2 acre side. And i love your idea of the pigs, goats, and chickens being the hired help cuz thats what we were thinking for the 4-6acre future site since we have the 2 acre side pretty well cleared by chainsaws/bush hogging. And while we are mastering the 2 acre side we can fence in the 4-6 acre side and let the hired help frolic around for a few years and we can also chainsaw a bit here and there to clear it up for the big project. We are a completely plant based family now becides our dogs they eat meat so the livestock will actually be long term pets i guess cuz we won't eat them. And that being said whats a good number for each type of hired help without getting super expensive to feed considering were not wanting to butcher, just have around to help work the land. Fyi we did start our first chicken farm venture with 30 chickens for eggs as we used to eat eggs alot before going plant based and we also make our dogs food using alot of eggs. So 30 birds was decent labor to care for collecting, washing, boxing, ect. but since we did eat alot it wasnt a big deal, but now since we dont eat them, collecting washing boxing isnt worth doing for 2-3 bucks a dozen(my areas prices due to the flood of backyard chicken farmers) there are some ppl who pay the government for the organic label and can sell theirs at the stores willing for 5bucks a dozen labeled organic farm eggs. But for the work that goes into that and paying the outrageous fee annually to be certified organic, im not sure its really worth it unless that is all you wanna do with your time and care for alot of birds. Being plant based now thats for the joes lol i just want about 20 birds max and a couple roosters to impregnate the eggs so they hatch instead of needing collected cuz i dont want them to become a huge chore like the 30 female laying birds we had. Any input on types of chickens good for my intended use would be gladly appreciated???
And goats/pigs i have no clue about care for either of them other then i know pigs need buddies. There is a person near our property that has this super narly looking goat with long black/white/grey hair with a twisted rack on his head that i would love to have a few of just cuz he looks cool lol. So from looks of that goat doesnt look like much grooming is needed for them/that type whatever it is. 
But the big question is how to manage 2-3 "excavation type" pigs, maybe 10 "minimal maintenance/excavation type" goats, and 20-30ish "minimal maintenance" chickens without spending alot on feed during winter when grazing is very limited? Please keep in mind i have no clue on pig/goat care. Obviously shelter/ water access and feed are big keys but beyond that im clueless.... input please???

Thanks Mike


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## CentaurG2

muddstopper said:


> I will disagree with having to plant more to get more. I got 6 bushel of whitehalf runners off a 2oft row. Tomatoes rottening because I couldnt eat or can all of them. 150lbs of potatoes off a 50ft row and that was after eating on them all summer. Still eating zucchini bread my wife made back in season. Corn, onions, squash, okra cukes, bell and cayanne peppers, I had more than enough and gave lots to my neighbors. All this grown on waste dirt from a highway contruction project.
> 
> Everybody has their own methods for organic growing. Some methods work better than others and some methods are limited simply because of where someone lives. I will pass on a few things that have worked for me in the past. For weed control, nothing is easier, cheaper and more effective than mulching. Once my plants are up, I spread generous amounts of mulch around the plants. This keeps the weeds from coming up. I use mostly wood chips I have from right of way clearings. I get the power company to dump truck loads on my property and than turn the material whenever the mood strikes me. They will dump enough in one year to keep me in quality mulch for years. A side benefit is that as these wood chips breakdown, they add necessary carbon back to the soil, along with other nutrients. Google remial wood chips for more info. Another benefit is moisture retention. I like to fill the valleys between my potato rows after hilling. I get taters big as footballs. They grow into the mulch and dont get sunburnt as they do when growing in just dirt. After the taters are dug and garden harvested, I simply till the mulch into the soil. about the only thing I add to my garden is dolomitic lime. If your soil dont have it, you got to add it, pure and simple.
> 
> Insect control is more insect prevention. Bugs breed and reproduce very fast. Start with a few and you have a big problem in just a couple weeks. The best way to control the bugs is to stop them before they get started. Chickens and hogs are your best tool to do this with. Of course you cant raise hogs and chickens in your garden, but if your garden has a fence then putting the animals in as soon as you have harvested the garden will get rid of most of the bugs, their eggs, and lots of weed seeds that wont be their next growing season. Also chickens and hogs are great areators and will scratch and root looking for those grubs that turn into potato and japanese beetles and they do a excellent job of mixing your soil with your mulch. also the benefit of added manure. Now I realize not everybody can grow chickens and hogs in their neighborhood, but if you can, its a good way to control weeds and bugs for the next growing season. Plus you get fresh eggs or fresh chicken and pork if you know how to butcher your own.
> 
> My biggest pest are deer. My 2000sqft garden has a 4ft wove wire fence around it. In the spring after planting my garden, I stretch string across the garden, from fence post to fence post. I go back and run more string at angles, sort of making the strings pattern diamond shaped. I then go back and tie the bright colored flagging tape to the string. Letting it hang down just about 2ft. The flags move with even the slightest breeze. I found that not only does the string and flags keep the deer out, but crows dont like the flags either. Havent seen a single deer track in the garden during growing season, but after I cut the strings down, tracks where there the next day..



We tried the wood mulch weeds down root many years ago. Turned out here that the short-tailed vole likes to nest in bark mulch and the “meadow mouse” was devastating on most vegetable crops including root crops. We switched to a heavy barrier fabric. Not only does it give the garden a very proper “English look”, it keeps both weeds and rodents down. It also works very well at warming the soil which helps out in our cold climate. The only problem is the fabric need to be removed every fall before tilling and put back every spring.

We always have about 24 or so chickens running about. They are free range and do a good job at insect patrol. I would caution against pigs, dogs or cats anywhere near an organic garden. Best to raise pigs on your neighbor’s property.

We have deer here but according to my game camera, they seem more interested in drinking out of my fish pond vs eating my produce. They only thing I raise that they really like is flowing okra. In spare rows, I usually grow cutting flowers and herbs. Once upon a lifetime, I purchased a pack of flowing okra seeds from Monticello. I usually grow them every year and the deer with trip over prime lettuce to eat the okra plants. I now mix them in with caster.

We also grow all organic corn. About every third ear with have a corn borer in it. While I don’t mind snapping off the end of an ear to remove the damage, few other folks will put up with the worms. You need to inspect every ear and we cull a lot.


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## CentaurG2

Diy mechanic mike said:


> I did say 2 acre hillside to start and then additional 4-6 acre hillside after we master the 2 acre side. And i love your idea of the pigs, goats, and chickens being the hired help cuz thats what we were thinking for the 4-6acre future site since we have the 2 acre side pretty well cleared by chainsaws/bush hogging. And while we are mastering the 2 acre side we can fence in the 4-6 acre side and let the hired help frolic around for a few years and we can also chainsaw a bit here and there to clear it up for the big project. We are a completely plant based family now becides our dogs they eat meat so the livestock will actually be long term pets i guess cuz we won't eat them. And that being said whats a good number for each type of hired help without getting super expensive to feed considering were not wanting to butcher, just have around to help work the land. Fyi we did start our first chicken farm venture with 30 chickens for eggs as we used to eat eggs alot before going plant based and we also make our dogs food using alot of eggs. So 30 birds was decent labor to care for collecting, washing, boxing, ect. but since we did eat alot it wasnt a big deal, but now since we dont eat them, collecting washing boxing isnt worth doing for 2-3 bucks a dozen(my areas prices due to the flood of backyard chicken farmers) there are some ppl who pay the government for the organic label and can sell theirs at the stores willing for 5bucks a dozen labeled organic farm eggs. But for the work that goes into that and paying the outrageous fee annually to be certified organic, im not sure its really worth it unless that is all you wanna do with your time and care for alot of birds. Being plant based now thats for the joes lol i just want about 20 birds max and a couple roosters to impregnate the eggs so they hatch instead of needing collected cuz i dont want them to become a huge chore like the 30 female laying birds we had. Any input on types of chickens good for my intended use would be gladly appreciated???
> And goats/pigs i have no clue about care for either of them other then i know pigs need buddies. There is a person near our property that has this super narly looking goat with long black/white/grey hair with a twisted rack on his head that i would love to have a few of just cuz he looks cool lol. So from looks of that goat doesnt look like much grooming is needed for them/that type whatever it is.
> But the big question is how to manage 2-3 "excavation type" pigs, maybe 10 "minimal maintenance/excavation type" goats, and 20-30ish "minimal maintenance" chickens without spending alot on feed during winter when grazing is very limited? Please keep in mind i have no clue on pig/goat care. Obviously shelter/ water access and feed are big keys but beyond that im clueless.... input please???
> 
> Thanks Mike



Eggs sell well around here. They fetch about $3 a dozen but you can ask more for fancy colored eggs. I would much rather gather eggs than pick strawberries or tomatoes. Despite being free range, most of our flock are very good about using the provided nesting boxes. If you can’t sell, don’t want or can’t use or give away to your local food pantry your excess production, you can always hard boil them and feed them back to your flock. Boil and cut them up, shells and all. If you want chickens but few eggs, the Cochin is a good candidate. They produce very few eggs, are very winter hardy and about as bright as a 3-watt bulb. You want a good tasting chicken that doubles as an excavator, the barred Plymouth rock is the bird of choice. Their unique coloration makes them predator resistant. Far better to rent goats than to own them. Best to raise pigs on your neighbor’s property.


https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog/Baby-Chicks/Partridge-Cochin-p728.aspx

https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog/Baby-Chicks/Barred-Plymouth-Rock-p231.aspx


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## Diy mechanic mike

You know now that you mention it we have some of the barred rock chickens and they have been the most tame and do alot of digging out of our flock. We started out with 10 barred rock, 10 rhode island reds, and 10 cali whites, and i have to say the cali whites are the nasty ones and they always fly out of the fenced in area we have for them which is a 1/4 acre. And i just hated coming home and seeing them out in the front yard, in the driveway, on the porch etc. And there was one rhode island red that got conned into the madness but the barred rocks always stayed in and did what we intended for them. We have had them 4 years now and were at about 15ish left, dogs got a couple, one got it by a coon or opossum, and the rest just this last year started dropping. We stopped selling/ using their eggs at year 3 cuz we started to find a few rotten ones and weird yokes and shells so figured they were aging out but all the rotten eggs and weird ones definatly helped us go fully plant based haha (that smell will haunt you) lol but good luck to all of you cracking eggs for breakfast, i hope you dont have to experience it. 
But back to the animal excavation project, why do you say pigs are for your neighbors property and to rent goats? I was only talking 2-3 pigs and maybe 10 goats. Obviously they would outlive our farming area project and would need other areas to work on which we have 27 total acres to have them frolic the rest of their heartbeats out as long as they dont cost us a fortune to keep fed. The whole slate we got is wooded, some thicker then others and a creek/erosion ditch at the lowest point, so i think the 3pigs and 10 goats could be a great natural army for the property we got. Im mostly just concerned about the cost of feeding them and their care cuz im not trying to use and abuse them here, just mostly make them earn their worth you know and save me a dime/alot of teadious time doing the inital brush clearing cuz thats the worst part in my opinion. But if they like it and do a great job at it then we might even grow them a special watermelon patch just for them cuz i hear pigs love melons and hard workers love getting bonuses. And thanks for the input its definatly great to hear other ppls experiences with possible ventures we plan to take.

Thanks mike


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## CentaurG2

Eggs have a respectable shelf life. If you were finding “rotten” eggs, you were picking up some really old eggs or cracked eggs. 

https://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/how-to-store-fresh-eggs-zmaz77ndzgoe

You should candle your eggs before eating or selling. A high-power LED flashlight works fine for this and you should be easily able to determine if an egg has a problem. We usually candle as we pick up our eggs. Any “bad” eggs can be cook and fed back to your flock.

Goats, if you have never dealt with them, do little other than try to get out of whatever area you try to keep them in. Following escape, they usually go to the exact area you don’t want them. Meat is next to useless as is the cheese. (acquired taste fur shure, but yuck!). Why keep them around? Rent them and get rid of them. Pigs is too close to humans for my comfort. Outfalls from the animals can be dangerous, particularly around an organic garden. Leave pigs to the piggeries.


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## 066blaster

when I was a kid our neighbors had giunne hens , about 40 or 50 running loose. we would find the eggs and throw them at each other. we learned very fast to hold our breath and run if it popped and was green when it hit the ground. Not to many other smells that have such an affect on your senses. and the smell is nothing like what most people consider rotten egg smell.


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## Diy mechanic mike

I get the eggs have a long shelf life but our 3year old chickens were laying these eggs and were bad. We never did here about the flashlight trick you mentioned, but sounds legit. They werent left behind for longer then a day cuz we collected mid morning and after 4pm everyday and when we forgot, the dogs collection pile got bigger. We gave the dogs the odd shaped ones that werent bad but bad ones(cracked) just when to compost pile. And we even had a few eggs that were laid without a hard shell it was like jelly but not leaking it was very strange looking. But thats when we were like yeah this has to be because they are old cuz nothing changed in their life becides giving up more yard to them to frolic and grub out on lol. We mostly let them graze in our planting usable compost pile, wood chip pile, yard, and supplemented with the scratch grain mix and layer pellets from store on rainy days and in winter or when they would really beg for it haha.

But you really dont see pigs or goats being a good/cheap tool to go from thick wooded unbrushed land to like forest service ground with big trees and minimal undergrowth(in my opinion the perfect maintainable wooded land)? I have seen alot of videos on youtube with ppl using pigs for clearing, specifically a guy using alot of pigs to basicaly bulldoze a hillside that had large forest growth on it and logged it and like months down the road it was ready to drag stumps to a pile and disc the ground and plant. It might have been a year later but still a pretty fast way to go from forest to pasture or w.e and a very cheap and natural way to do it. He claimed the pigs if unringed would dig the stumps out of the ground enough to pull out with a tractor with ease. Now i dont remember the time frame but if i remember right it was like within a year of logging the area he was able to drag uprooted stumps outta the way for the new feild to be worked and planted. Now i understand he had a fleet of pigs and they made one hell of a mess haha but the fact that the pigs made it happen is great. The mess part is why im saying 3 pigs is all we would want to handle our labor needs. I have seen what 3 pigs can do in a 20x10 pin and it gets nasty fast. But i think 3 pigs fenced in an area as large as 6 acres would be fine, to much ground to stomp to tear one specific area up unless its near a water hole where they would drink. 
But can you have pigs and goats fenced in together? Like would they get along or would i be running a gladiator style fight arena? I wouldnt even worry about the chickens cuz they dont cost much to replace if they got stomped, but they are pretty good at being chickens(running and hiding).

Thanks mike


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## muddstopper

Putting pigs in the same lot as a goat isnt a good ideal. A pig will eat anything, including goats and especially chickens. My suggestion was meant to use goats to deforest the underbrush and then use pigs to destump what the goats didnt eat. Personally, if I had no intention of eating the pigs, chickens or goats, I wouldnt raise them. If I did raise them then it would be with the expressed purpose to sell. A pig will bring a dollar a lb on the hoove. Goats, depending on breed, will bring anywhere from $25 to $100 per head. Boer Goats are considered meat goats and are usually sold by the lb. Boer goats are also the hardest goats to raise so be prepared to loose a few. 

Chicken eggs are easy to sell, but free range chickens tend to hide their nest. This usually means when you find one, there are usually several eggs in the nest and most of them will be old. A chicken will lay about every 26hrs, not quite one egg a day. A chicken is also hatched with every embryo it will ever lay. Its most productive period is about 50weeks after it first starts laying. Chicken farmers replace their flocks every year since they are only interested in mass production. Old chickes go into Cambell soup. If your going to sell eggs, the Black Australops have proven to produce the most eggs, but they are dumb as rocks. Most pruebreds wont even set their own eggs. Lots of folks raise certain breeds because they like green and blue and even chocolate colored eggs. Some breeds lay very large eggs. The most Money I ever made on selling eggs was when selling pure breeds. I have gotten as much as $45 doz, which included shipping, for certain breeds. I have shipped eggs all over the US. I used chicken tractors to keep my birds in. I kept the tractors in my pasture and would move them every couple of days. This way the birds had plenty of grass to pick and it kept the poop spread out so that flys and smells didnt become a problem. About as close to free range as you can get without letting them run free. Tractors also keep predators from becomeing a problem.


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## CentaurG2

We have a black australorp. She was a drive-by, as in someone drove by and tossed her out the window. She fit right in with the rest of the flock, although she is stupid tame. I am told there is a chicken breed called the death layer that produces eggs till the day it dies but they are ridiculously expensive.

https://greenfirefarms.com/deathlayer.html


If you are going to free range, go with chickens that have some predator savvy. Ancona and the Appenzeller are both reported to be great free range.

https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog/Baby-Chicks/Ancona-p724.aspx

https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalog/Baby-Chicks/Appenzeller-Spitzhauben-p580.aspx


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## Diy mechanic mike

Gotchya, yeah i didnt know if they could be together or not but i guess the chickens will have to learn the hard way cuz they are harder to teach where not to go since they can sorta fly over barriers lol. But yeah from everything ive read and videos ive watched seems that goats dont eat everything you want them to but pigs devour everything down to roots which is great for going from woods to pasture. So im thinking if i let goats and chickens in said area for a monthish then move them to next area to start, and let pigs go into area the goats were already at to finish up the work, then once move time comes again and pigs are outta the first spot i could maybe seed the area after a couple months of recovery from the disturbance. And if we get the whole 4-6 acres hot wire fenced in and separate it into 12 half acre lots, we could move them once a month for a whole year. Then start back over next year if we still have serious weed issues or we could just start them on some other areas on our property. But im guessing the clearing project of the 6 acres would take 2 years of rotation along with here and there chainsawing, so we might even have the pigs and goats excavating the area for 3 years so we have a year of them working on the weeds while there is sunshine available because right now we got alot of timber trees in that area so once its cleared of under brush in the first or second year we could start logging and have them work another year once its logged. And continue to work on seeding it with cover crops and removing the stumps from logged trees.

But any info on best inexpensive ways to feed/ care for 3-5pigs and 10 goats when using them for this purpose. I get during summer they wont need much supplemental feed but winter time they will.

Thanks mike


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## muddstopper

I think if i was going to free range and not eat the eggs or meat, I would go with some sort of Game chicken. They raise multiple broods each year and pretty much take care of themselfs. My grandfather used to raise fighting chickens. Way back when it wasnt illegal to import chickens, he brought in some sort of jungle fowl and cross bred with his games. For a while he was unbeatable at the chicken fights and used to go all over the county to enter his birds in big derby's. He kept experimenting with breeding until he finally messed his fighters up. Couldnt win a derby after that. With chicken fighting being illegal just about everywhere now, I doubt there is very much breeding for fighters taking place anymore.


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## Diy mechanic mike

I have talked to some ppl in my area that just got a dozen of the death layers eggs to hatch and they were very pricey for just the eggs that might not even hatch, so sounds risky to me but i guess once you got them you got a dozen a day for a long time, which caring for just a dozen chickens would be ok. But you know now that you say black astralorpe i think thats what our black ones are lol we just call them "white(skinnys), black (fatties), and the reds". But either way the black ones are definitely the most tame and do the most digging around, and are the biggest out of the types we have.


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## Diy mechanic mike

Lol i dont wanna be watching my back down at the farm cuz we got vicious chickens around. I get they could hold their own out there but man if i get attacked im pulling out the 22 and having target practice haha. But what are some good game breds that can take care of them selves cuz that is really what we want, self efficiency. And yeah the whole bird fighting thing being illegal is crazy cuz we still fight humans and heck its even on t.v. talk about "inhumane"..... but i guess there was alot of cruel training tactics with birds where humans we can actually tell them what to do and they listen, even scarier in my opinion then chickens haha.


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## CentaurG2

Diy mechanic mike said:


> Gotchya, yeah i didnt know if they could be together or not but i guess the chickens will have to learn the hard way cuz they are harder to teach where not to go since they can sorta fly over barriers lol. But yeah from everything ive read and videos ive watched seems that goats dont eat everything you want them to but pigs devour everything down to roots which is great for going from woods to pasture. So im thinking if i let goats and chickens in said area for a monthish then move them to next area to start, and let pigs go into area the goats were already at to finish up the work, then once move time comes again and pigs are outta the first spot i could maybe seed the area after a couple months of recovery from the disturbance. And if we get the whole 4-6 acres hot wire fenced in and separate it into 12 half acre lots, we could move them once a month for a whole year. Then start back over next year if we still have serious weed issues or we could just start them on some other areas on our property. But im guessing the clearing project of the 6 acres would take 2 years of rotation along with here and there chainsawing, so we might even have the pigs and goats excavating the area for 3 years so we have a year of them working on the weeds while there is sunshine available because right now we got alot of timber trees in that area so once its cleared of under brush in the first or second year we could start logging and have them work another year once its logged. And continue to work on seeding it with cover crops and removing the stumps from logged trees.
> 
> But any info on best inexpensive ways to feed/ care for 3-5pigs and 10 goats when using them for this purpose. I get during summer they wont need much supplemental feed but winter time they will.
> 
> Thanks mike



If you want to give it a try, the basic for either beast is food, water and shelter. Winter would be the same but depending on the severity of your winter and how many animals you want to over-winter, the water and shelter could become a big factor. Around here, cheap winter feed for goats are round bails of first or second crop hay. You can also go with squares but rounds are usually far more cost effective but are a lot more difficult to handle and store. You could also overwinter goats on pelleted feed or use a combo of hay and pelleted feed. Water here requires frost free hydrants and tubs with floating heaters so an electrical source near the tub is also required. If you get a lot of snow, it is unlikely the animals will stray from the shelter. Acquiring bedding and a method to remove contaminated bedding throughout the winter months should be considered. There are a lot of choices for bedding material but sawdust is usually used here as it is cheap. The only other thing I know about goats is that intact males positively stink. Stick with does or weathers.

I am no authority on pig farming. I know pigs can be pastured with supplemental grain. Here is an article that is similar to what I think you are trying to do.

http://smithmeadows.com/farm/how-to-raise-pigs-on-pasture/

Most folks that I know who raise pigs do not over winter them. You might find someone in your area that raises pigs and talk to them about best farming methods for them.


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## CentaurG2

muddstopper said:


> I think if i was going to free range and not eat the eggs or meat, I would go with some sort of Game chicken. They raise multiple broods each year and pretty much take care of themselfs. My grandfather used to raise fighting chickens. Way back when it wasnt illegal to import chickens, he brought in some sort of jungle fowl and cross bred with his games. For a while he was unbeatable at the chicken fights and used to go all over the county to enter his birds in big derby's. He kept experimenting with breeding until he finally messed his fighters up. Couldnt win a derby after that. With chicken fighting being illegal just about everywhere now, I doubt there is very much breeding for fighters taking place anymore.



It was probably a Malay chicken. I would like to add a couple to my flock but they are not cold weather hardy breed so they are a no go around here.


https://livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/malay


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## Diy mechanic mike

Gotchya so water and shelter are biggest winter concerns.... we have a few ppl down near our farm that do bail hay that we could source from cost effectively and in the future once we get our pastures planted we will probably try to work some sort of deal out with them to bale it for us and leave us half or so since we dont have means to bale it at this point in time. Any input on deals like that would be great if anyone has worked out sonething like this before?.?... but the bedding issue shoukdnt be a problem we have saw mills near that load out sawdust for cheap as well or if wood chips could work we would have that all day our selves for free and the used material could be piled for a year for future use on fruit trees or berrie bushes as mulch. But im guessing our front end loader would finally get a full time job around the place rather then just being a front end weight lol. But the winter watering issue could be an issue to figure out, as we do not currently have a power source out there but we do have great access to the grid as it runs right threw the middle of our property spliting it in half so options are endless on points to source power from and if all hell hits the fan and we let it grow back up which we wont but previous owners did this exactly, But every 5 years the power company hires out a company to clear with bucket trucks and forestry mulchers the right of way so they helped us out this year alot on stuff we were planning to do in futre but only have to maintain it now and we got a load of chips dumped for us as well so free access to bedding/mulching materials if woodchips are ok for bedding that is. But thanks for the info and links to check out more info on our future projects. Forums are like the greatest things ever, i feel sorry for all the oldtimers who had to just figure it out the hard way but i respect all of them because someone had to do it and i really appreciate that their info is more readily available for ppl willing to seek it out. And the internet has made that very easy for the motivated mind.

Thanks mike


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## Ferny

First of all congratulations! I have a friend who 3 years ago decided to buy this farm for sale in Spain in La Mancha province and he has been growing grapes as that area is popular for it as I understand. Now his business is going pretty good as he sells grapes to local bodegas (vineyards) the only issue he has is when he needs to gather the crop. He highers Moroccans mostly and they do all the work for him.


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## esshup

For clearing brush and stuff on a larger scale I'd find a place that rents a tracked bobcat with an enclosed cab, with what they call a Fecon head. Think of a large open brush dhipper that will chew up trees/brush, etc and leave mulch behind. You can probably do an acre or two in a day, depending on the size of the trees there. 

Going organic is a chore for a larger scale like you are describing. Look into how many years it takes before you can be certified organic. Then look into the actual sales of the produce you want to sell vs. the amount you will NOT sell because of the imperfections.

Goats can clear brush too, but you have to fence the area in and what will THAT cost? They won't eat much woody brush or small saplings either. 

Ever see organic honey? Think about that for a minute or two. Read up on how far bees will travel from their hive. Unless you control a huge amount of land, and have the hives in the exact center, how do you keep the bees from gathering nectar and pollen from non-organic certified plants??

I think being certified organic is a good thing, but if you are planning on running a business and getting your income from that, I don't know if it will be a sustainable long term.

Locally last year we had a crop duster spray the wrong farm. The one that he sprayed was certified organic, not any more.........................


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## Woodchuck71

Everyone has a dream.But goats are usually found in my nightmares!
Unless you put in a no-climb wire fence,8'tall(at least),with nothing, I mean NOTHING,within their jumping ability, you're fighting a loosing battle.
Once they get out,they find the best paint job on any vehicle and decide they need to put their signature on it!
That's my experience with them anyways.
Nope,not the 40 year old tractor,20 year old dump truck but the 2 week old pickup.
Pigs will usually stay in IF trained young to electric wire.May hit it a couple times,but that's usually all it takes.
Keep first strand about 8"or so off the ground,second strand about 20".
But,IMHO,you need a solid wire perimeter fence also.
Southern Illinois,wintering shouldn't be a huge problem if you choose to.
Guineas are awesome, but never hadluck them laying their eggs in the coops.
Ours free range,with chickens.They roost in coop together,but don't lay their eggs inside.
So we usually find nest with as many as 20+eggs in them.They(eggs) go to the pigs!
Never lost a chicken or Guinea to hogs,but list several to Hawks.They go inside their coop every night with automatic door,don't have to worry about coons and possums.
Pigs keep snakes away also.Feeding your pigs will get expensive.In your situation I'd buy early spring,let them do their business with supplemental feed,then sell when them at around 250/280 pounds.
No wintering and someone always buys pigs.


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## Huskybill

Don’t forget the wild life. I have fruit trees for the bear and deer. This year in planting pasture grass and white clover. I only have two acres but plenty of wild life going from the bottom land up to the water shed behind me.

Onetime we had 100 tomato plants we canned. One pound of fried chopmeat, a jar of tomato sauce, one pound of macaroni, some cheese and homemade garlic bread we / kids ate good.


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