# What causes a tree to barber chair



## strtspdlx

I've been having an issue lately with a few larger trees barber chairing not necessarily bad but it could be worse. They're probably 30ish" trees give or take 10-12" (I'm not good at visual measurements without a tape measure). And when they split its probably about 2-3' up. I have no idea why they do but if someone could give me insight into how to make it less likely to happen I'd appreciate it. 


Regards-Carlo


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## KenJax Tree

Could be a lot of things. It could be the heart wood is rotten, your face cut isn't deep enough, too much lean for a conventional face and back cut, failure to cut the sap wood on both side of large diameter trees...etc. 

Before you can prevent a barber chair you need to know and understand what's causing it.


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## Skeans

strtspdlx said:


> I've been having an issue lately with a few larger trees barber chairing not necessarily bad but it could be worse. They're probably 30ish" trees give or take 10-12" (I'm not good at visual measurements without a tape measure). And when they split its probably about 2-3' up. I have no idea why they do but if someone could give me insight into how to make it less likely to happen I'd appreciate it.
> 
> 
> Regards-Carlo


Why don't you post up some pictures of the before and after.


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## strtspdlx

I wasn't thinking about it last time I cut. And all the evidence is already gone. Next time I cut hopefully it doesn't happen but if it does I'll be sure to snap some photos. 


Regards-Carlo


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## strtspdlx

KenJax Tree said:


> Could be a lot of things. It could be the heart wood is rotten, your face cut isn't deep enough, too much lean for a conventional face and back cut, failure to cut the sap wood on both side of large diameter trees...etc.
> 
> Before you can prevent a barber chair you need to know and understand what's causing it.



That's what I'd like to learn. I
Understand it's the tree splitting because of the hinge. But what in the hinge causes it? Is there a way to setup the hinge so it won't do it? What preventative measures can I take and how do they effect it to prevent it from happening. I've only been cutting for 2 seasons. So needless to say I'm a newbie but I need to learn before I get hurt. 


Regards-Carlo
Edit. You refer to sapwood. What is that? And to the best of my knowledge the trees where solid. No rot. The one that was dead as a door nail did t barber chair either. And I put a tiny mouth on it. Maybe and inch deep tree was probably 24" or so


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## Skeans

Sometimes boring and back strapping the back cut can help from barber chairing others are just a bit too hairy and make you pucker up.


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## Gologit

Carlo...if you have leaners and you can fall them with the lean, this cut works pretty good. The triangle works better for me 'cause it's easier to match up the cuts but either one will work.


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## ChoppyChoppy

Barber chair is for sure bad - people are killed every year from them!

Are you staying in the cut long enough? If you leave too much of a hinge it can barber chair.
What tree species are you cutting?


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## strtspdlx

Oak ,pine, and 2-3 species that I don't know what they are. 


Regards-Carlo
Edit. Valley firewood I didn't answer all questions. Once I get them dropped my hinge is only 1" to 1-1/2" wide. And I full gas after it cracks until it swings down. I only had 3 of probably 20 do it to me but it still makes me very nervous. Most split straight up and went back away from me but I'm waiting for the one that hits me.


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## Marshy

All good advice given already. The mechanics behind it is one side of the trunk is in tension and the other side is in compression. At the plane where the forces of compression and tension meet there is a shear force. Wood fibers are poor in shear force so when they fail you get separation at that plane, hence barber chair. By using a bore cut you can remove that area where the two opposing forces (compression/tension) meet and mitigate the potential to chair.


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## Trx250r180

I use the triangle cut Gologit posted on any tree that has a good lean to it , Be careful not to walk behind the tree when making the 2 side cuts ,i put a face in first ,then nip the 2 side triangle cuts ,a longer bar is nice for this ,keeping your body farther away ,after the side cuts are made ,the pressure is relieved from the barberchair ,then make a reg back cut where the point of the triangle is .

Here is an example on a small alder stump that had a good lean to it after it was cut 
.


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## dor-moor hands

Some species are prone to chair like ash. Even if there is no lean. Which could be your unidentified species. i have seen people do to shallow of a face and to small of an angle cause the tree to chair when the face closes before the hinge lets go.


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## ScottinAK

Trx250r180 said:


> I use the triangle cut Gologit posted on any tree that has a good lean to it , Be careful not to walk behind the tree when making the 2 side cuts ,i put a face in first ,then nip the 2 side triangle cuts ,a longer bar is nice for this ,keeping your body farther away ,after the side cuts are made ,the pressure is relieved from the barberchair ,then make a reg back cut where the point of the triangle is .
> 
> Here is an example on a small alder stump that had a good lean to it after it was cut View attachment 437567
> .


So you do the face cut, then the 2 angle cuts. Are the angle cuts just a straight cut or wedge? Also is there a back cut in there to release the tree or the 2nd angle cut acts as the back cut?


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## Trx250r180

I am not the greatest sharpie artist ,but hope this helps
Cut 1 is the face ,i personally use a humboldt
Cut 2 ,first side cut line it up with the hinge in the face
Cut 3 ,second side cut ,connect hinge with the first side cut ,now the triangle is made
Cut 4 , The final reg back cut start at the tip of the triangle you made ,when you hear stuff popping in the back cut ,run away like a little girl ,because the tree is going over
A longer bar is safer when cutting any chair prone tree ,cutting with the tip end of the bar ,it helps keep you more away from the tree if it decides to chair out
What the side cuts are doing is relieving the pressure in the log that wants to chair out ,once you cut those out ,it is much less prone to pop with that material gone .
The stump i posted was leaning about like the drawing ,and you can see how it ripped the fiber guts out going over slow vs chairing out .

On the question on the side cuts ,they are just one cut strait ,no wedge to them ,only wedge is the face .


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## ScottinAK

Trx250r180 said:


> I am not the greatest sharpie artist ,but hope this helps
> Cut 1 is the face ,i personally use a humboldt
> Cut 2 ,first side cut line it up with the hinge in the face
> Cut 3 ,second side cut ,connect hinge with the first side cut ,now the triangle is made
> Cut 4 , The final reg back cut start at the tip of the triangle you made ,when you hear stuff popping in the back cut ,run away like a little girl ,because the tree is going over
> A longer bar is safer when cutting any chair prone tree ,cutting with the tip end of the bar ,it helps keep you more away from the tree if it decides to chair out
> What the side cuts are doing is relieving the pressure in the log that wants to chair out ,once you cut those out ,it is much less prone to pop with that material gone .
> The stump i posted was leaning about like the drawing ,and you can see how it ripped the fiber guts out going over slow vs chairing out .
> 
> On the question on the side cuts ,they are just one cut strait ,no wedge to them ,only wedge is the face .
> View attachment 437692


Awesome, thank you. I put that one in the tool bag.


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## Litz

There are a lot of good posts here on how to cut trees that are obvious candidates for barber chairing, but if you cut enough trees eventually you will have one barber chair that is not leaning or showing any visual signs that it would. I have had perfectly strait and sound larch barber chair 35 feet up and land 30 feet back from the stump, had to pack out a co-worker with a broken neck from a lodgepole barber chairing and had thousands of trees with no lean or rot start to barber chair. Here are a few tips that I always use to prevent(or stop once they start) the non-obvious trees from barber chairing:
- Always make a deep enough face cut so that when the tree is falling and the face closes it will not slow or prevent the tree from continuing to fall.
-unless there is a really good reason to get a long ways away from the tree always finish your cut and do not start to walk away as soon as the tree starts to fall. The main reason for a tree to barber chair is when it starts to fall and has momentum or a lot of weight in the top and something at the stump (not cutting enough holding wood, having a shallow face) starts to stop the tree from falling. This puts an immense amount of vertical splitting pressure on the tree trunk at the point you stopped cutting. I always stay cutting until the tree is going right where I want it to and is well on its way before walking or running away. 
-obvious one but always cut a clear escape path or multiple escape paths from the base of the tree. I like to have my main one go at a 45 degree angle back and away from the direction I am falling the tree. 
-If the tree starts to fall and you notice it start to barber chair cut as fast as you can!! If you can cut enough wood to make the forces holding the tree up on the stump less than the forces cracking the trunk vertically the tree will stop barber chairing and fall. I can typically prevent 95% of barber chairing trees this way but it is absolutely essential that you are able to tell when it is to late and time to quit cutting run as fast and far from the tree as you can. -Always cut with a sharp saw! Even if it is the last tree of the day stop to file or switch chains. A dull saw makes the above tip useless and will just waste valuable time that could be used to get away from the tree. 
-Watch your limb weight...it can create every bit as much force on a tree as a heavy lean. 
-one last one is once you decide to run go twice as far and twice as fast as you think you need to they happen so fast and can land way farther from the tree than you could imagine.
Happy cutting!!


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## strtspdlx

I was on YouTube searching around and noticed a lot of people plunge cut their back cut and leave a trigger on the backside. Supposedly this lessens the chance of a barberchair as your hinge is already setup. Assuming that the hinge is setup and I plunge cut and leave that trigger is this a safe way to fall a tree wether it is likely to barberchair or is not?


Regards-Carlo


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## Marshy

It lessons the chance for it to chair because you created some distance between that plane where one side is in tension and one side is on compression. It's a very good way to reduce the chance of chair but it also creates some new risks. Like, if you don't leave enough material in your trigger it could fail and the tree falls before your ready. If you go to cut the trigger and it pulls the fiber from the stump it could take your saw with the tree. It could pull a chunk from the stump if the stump fails. There is usually a tremendous amount of tension in that section of wood.


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## Trx250r180

Marshy said:


> It lessons the chance for it to chair because you created some distance between that plant where one side is in tension and one side is on compression. It's a very good way to reduce the chance of chair but it also creates some new risks. Like, if you don't leave enough material in your trigger it could fail and the tree falls before your ready. If you go to cut the trigger and it pulls the fiber from the stump it could take your saw with the tree. It could pull a chunk from the stump if the stump fails. There is usually a tremendous amount of tension in that section of wood.


Yes and if it takes your saw ,let it go ,things can go wrong real fast .


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## acer-kid

Marshy said:


> By using a bore cut you can remove that area where the two opposing forces (compression/tension) meet and mitigate the potential to chair.


I stated something similarly once, and a member here (pelorus) pointed out to me that you are simply shifting the neutral plane to the hinge. Not that it affects the conversation much, just thought it was a good point. 

The right amount of lean and top weight, coupled with a poorly cut face can result in a barber chair in spite of a bore cut.


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## acer-kid

Trx250r180 said:


> Yes and if it takes your saw ,let it go ,things can go wrong real fast .


A good trick is to make your trigger cut BELOW the bore. Far less chance of booking a flight for your husky.


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## Skeans

Once in a blue you can get away with swinging a heavy leaner as well. Don't recommend it that often or that it's the safest thing to do either.







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## strtspdlx

Well I bought this saw cheap. I'm not saying if it takes flight I won't be worried. I will about my safety and others. But if it sacrifices the saw and saves My life so be it. I'm just trying to learn before I make mistakes. When I was a few years younger I didn't care I would've just let the chips fly. I have too many responsibilities for that mentality now. And we're looking to buy some
Land with about an acres worth of trees I have to clear for our horse and luckily for me they're mostly all leaning in some way shape of form. If I can get back to the property before closing I'll shoot some
Pictures. 


Regards-Carlo


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## Gologit

There's been some pretty good advice in this thread but I'll add just a little to it.
A barber chair doesn't always go straight back. Sure, the majority of the time they'll split straight up the tree but they can also split out, slab out and come at you from an angle.
When that happens the slab itself will almost always break off and come down...usually right where you'd be standing if you weren't smart enough to get the hell out of the way. It happens in the blink of an eye.



Somebody here said that when a tree starts to 'chair that you can continue to power through the cut and maybe catch it before it gets bad. I wouldn't do that. Maybe on certain types of wood...and especially on smaller trees...it might work. Nothing I've ever cut would let you get away with that. In bigger trees with a long bar buried the action of the slab can push your bar back toward you. Again, it happens real quick.
If you see any sign that the tree is going to chair just pull your saw and bail. You're not cutting high quality logs where trying to save one might make you some money. Even if you were it's not worth the gamble.


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## TheJollyLogger

Gotta jump in. At its simplest, a barber chair occurs when the gravitational force on the tension wood overwhelms the integrity of the trunk, or the cellular bond between the wood under tension and the wood under compression. The split runs up the tree until the forces equal out. At that point, whatever gravitational forces are being exerted on the crown are in complete control, and inertia takes over. At that point, conventional escape paths are no longer always safe, and quite frankly chairs often happen so explosively the concept of escape is a moot point anyway. Ya done screwed up, youre gonna take your licks. As Bob said, a mindset that the tree will only chair directly behind is false, and keep in mind very often at the end of the chair it rolls off the stob, which could be 20-30' up.


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## ILikesEmGreen

Not my post, but def enjoyed reading. Learned a lot from people with way more experience than I. It's usually cheaper that way in the long run too. Thanks guys!

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## Gypo Logger

I don't know why some trees chair.


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## ILikesEmGreen

Havent the foggiest idea as to why that one did. Looks like high quality production work to me. *facepalm* hopefully that wasn't the last pic that guy ever had taken. 

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## Gypo Logger

Since we are talking about a very dangerous situation, I should clarify what's going on in the above pic.
The tree was windtrown and limb bound in another tree of the same size.
The butt was shattered already when I found it. There was nil to no chance of a formal undercut, so I severed it as best I could, then choked it off with the skidder, then completed the cut and winched it off the other tree at 90 degrees.
If you pull the tree straight back there is always the chance that you will uproot the other tree straight towards yourself.


ILikesEmGreen said:


> Havent the foggiest idea as to why that one did. Looks like high quality production work to me. *facepalm* hopefully that wasn't the last pic that guy ever had taken.
> 
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## ILikesEmGreen

Ahh, that'll definitely do it. Makes much more sense than some guy trying to fell it with a single cut. More explanation on a situation like that changes everything. Lol

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## strtspdlx

I'm glad I asked this question now. I think I'll be a bit more cautious when falling anything questionable now. If anyone has anything to add please speak up. The more I can learn the safer I'll be (hopefully). 


Regards-Carlo


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## Nemus Talea

Mismatched cuts in the face can cause chairs, especially if coupled with prone species (ie. boxelder), heavy head lean, side lean, structural weakness (crack or rot), weight, wind, etc. As tree falls, the kerfs of the mismatch close and its as if there is no face removed at all.
Borecutting works great but is best instructed in person. If you know someone qualified in its use pursue learning it, but otherwise, use previously mentioned T and triangle methods for the leaners. One of the Tube vids ya saw may have been me knocking over a goofy basswood. Not having to chase the hinge on backcut, especially on a hazard tree or bad ground is a big plus.
Review your basics. Barberchairs should be very, very rare and not a mystery if one does occur.


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## strtspdlx

Nemus
You mention if I know of someone who knows how to bore cut correctly to have them instruct me. Why do you say that? I thought bore cuts where just notch 10%. Bore cut leaving about 1" to 1-1/2" hinge and come out to trigger and leave trigger hold if you want to use wedges. If not just release tree? Or is there a lot more to it then just that?


Regards-Carlo


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## Carburetorless

Bore cuts are used on leaners to prevent barber chairing due to the tree falling before the back cut is finished. 

With the bore cut you can do a proper back cut, then release the holding wood, so the tree begins falling with a proper hinge instead of with a half finished back cut.

I've tried using a bore cut to allow for wedges to be placed, but the tree can still set down if you take too much holding wood out before you place your wedges.


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## Nemus Talea

strtspdlx said:


> Nemus
> You mention if I know of someone who knows how to bore cut correctly to have them instruct me. Why do you say that? I thought bore cuts where just notch 10%. Bore cut leaving about 1" to 1-1/2" hinge and come out to trigger and leave trigger hold if you want to use wedges. If not just release tree? Or is there a lot more to it then just that?
> 
> 
> Regards-Carlo


Many variables from tree to tree and different situations. Someone looking over your shoulder can point them out better than clowns like me on the internet.
RPM and angle at start of bore, placement of cut as dictated by ground / hazards, and body position should ideally be observed. Boring should not be used if placement results in a crack running into hinge or latch area. Bore should stop and felling plan reevaluated if large amount of rot or big cavity encountered. (large and big are relative of course) These situations can result in crushed bars, chairs or compressed stump failure. Latch shouldnt be placed in burled, knotted or compromised wood. Sapwood of some species is quite weak and must be left thicker than other trees,.. sometimes not trusted at all. Depending on anticipated tension at latch, dont place above profound buttress root as it could tear right to the ground before you're ready and root can get you. Bark, no matter how thick, should not be considered latch thickness. Bark should be removed at placement areas with axe if preloading with wedges.
Triangle cut that gologit posted is good choice in weak and brittle stuff.
1 - 1.5" hinge would be a bit thin at 30"+ DBH for many species. Some may be being removed if yer cutting during its fall though. Be careful of beginner manual ratios for face angle, depth, backcut height and hinge ratios. Use them as you learn but be mindful of their effects. A little rot changes hinge thickness. On cottonwood, for example, I prefer deeper face, and higher backcut than if i was taking a hickory,.. most of the time. Most manuals dont fully explore effects, good and bad, of techniques.
If you are new or relearning methods, as I had to do many years ago, keep your brain in gear and think about the physics involved in getting that tree on the ground safely.
Practice borecut on felled trees to get "feel" for it. Boring is actually very useful releasing stress when cutting log length.
Got pics of stumps? A scrench, saw, cigarette lighter or pop can next to it will help for scale.
What size saw are you working with? Bar lenth? Sharp?
This chairing mystery must be figured out before ya get killed. Are your face cuts meeting perfectly? A kerf cut beyond intersection in face could be the culprit.


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## strtspdlx

Nemus

ALOT of info in that post. Makes me feel very ignorant to think it's so simple. This weekend I should be out in the woods weather permitting and I'll try to get a few shots of what I'm dealing with. Most of the trees I cut I had my 385xp with 24b&c the chain on the saw however had seen some metal at some point and I could never get it sharpened the way I wanted. I would call it sharp though as after I fell and bucked one tree is have to touch it up before felling anything again. Right now I sold that saw like a moron and got myself a 455 rancher. Looking for a 372xp at the moment though. 
As for my face cuts. As far as I can tell they meet very well. Nothing in the intersection point and I always had a nice straight line so I could use the felling lines on the saw. 
When you say a kerf cut beyond the intersection. Does that mean if I where to go beyond the root of the hinge and cut further back without opening the hinge more? If so I may have done that but at the most it would've been height of the chain deep. As I always tried to keep the intersection point as debri free and sharp as possible. 


Regards-Carlo


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## Nemus Talea

The concept is simple, but as with all tree work, consequences for some details not addressed are dangerous.
372 would be excellent for the job. Depending on species, 455 may be a little slow/weak with bar fully buried. Small bites like whats possible with T method would be smart way to go on the leaners.


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## SteveSr

strtspdlx said:


> I was on YouTube searching around and noticed a lot of people plunge cut their back cut and leave a trigger on the backside. Supposedly this lessens the chance of a barberchair as your hinge is already setup. Assuming that the hinge is setup and I plunge cut and leave that trigger is this a safe way to fall a tree wether it is likely to barberchair or is not?
> Regards-Carlo



Carlo,

I am a USFS and S212 trained volunteer sawyer. I do trail construction and maintenance. Here is what I have been taught and slightly modified to increase my safety when falling trees. This is especially useful in situations with trees with high lean, weight, or ice storm damage.

1. Use an open face notch. An open face notch is 90 degrees or greater. An open face notch CANNOT close and cause the trunk to shatter before the trunk is on the ground.

2. The notch depth should be 20-25% of the trunk diameter. Cleanup any "dutchman" (cut mismatch) that was formed while cutting the notch. 

3. The hinge width should be about 10% of the trunk diameter.

4. Construct the hinge by bore cutting behind the CENTER of the notch. A swamper observer is useful to make sure that the bore cut is level with the notch. You can TAKE YOUR TIME doing this as the tree is still supported by the hinge and the remainder of the trunk. Unlike a conventional back cut the tree goes nowhere... yet.

5. Once the hinge width is properly set I will cut the holding wood from the inside (hinge) straight back. Eventually there will be enough room to insert wedges on each side of the cut to prevent any sit-back.

6. Cut most of the trunk but leave about an inch of what is called "holding wood". Withdraw the saw from the cut and re-position wedges as necessary.

7. Now cut the holding wood from the outside. If the tree has any weight or lean it should start falling. If not start hammering wedges.

The beauty of this method is that the hinge is COMPLETELY constructed first so that even if the holding wood pulls out before you have a chance to cut it, the trunk itself should NOT split and the tree will just fall in its intended direction.

This method works great for trees that are smaller diameter than the length of your bar. If the bar is almost long enough you can slab both sides of the trunk to fix this. For trees much bigger than your bar length you have to use techniques that were shown in a previous post in this thread. The main idea is to ALWAYS construct the notch and hinge FIRST!

Stay safe out there... Know when to walk away!

Steve


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## HuskStihl

SteveSr said:


> Carlo,
> 
> I am a USFS and S212 trained volunteer sawyer. I do trail construction and maintenance. Here is what I have been taught and slightly modified to increase my safety when falling trees. This is especially useful in situations with trees with high lean, weight, or ice storm damage.
> 
> 1. Use an open face notch. An open face notch is 90 degrees or greater. An open face notch CANNOT close and cause the trunk to shatter before the trunk is on the ground.
> 
> 2. The notch depth should be 20-25% of the trunk diameter. Cleanup any "dutchman" (cut mismatch) that was formed while cutting the notch.
> 
> 3. The hinge width should be about 10% of the trunk diameter.
> 
> 4. Construct the hinge by bore cutting behind the CENTER of the notch. A swamper observer is useful to make sure that the bore cut is level with the notch. You can TAKE YOUR TIME doing this as the tree is still supported by the hinge and the remainder of the trunk. Unlike a conventional back cut the tree goes nowhere... yet.
> 
> 5. Once the hinge width is properly set I will cut the holding wood from the inside (hinge) straight back. Eventually there will be enough room to insert wedges on each side of the cut to prevent any sit-back.
> 
> 6. Cut most of the trunk but leave about an inch of what is called "holding wood". Withdraw the saw from the cut and re-position wedges as necessary.
> 
> 7. Now cut the holding wood from the outside. If the tree has any weight or lean it should start falling. If not start hammering wedges.
> 
> The beauty of this method is that the hinge is COMPLETELY constructed first so that even if the holding wood pulls out before you have a chance to cut it, the trunk itself should NOT split and the tree will just fall in its intended direction.
> 
> This method works great for trees that are smaller diameter than the length of your bar. If the bar is almost long enough you can slab both sides of the trunk to fix this. For trees much bigger than your bar length you have to use techniques that were shown in a previous post in this thread. The main idea is to ALWAYS construct the notch and hinge FIRST!
> 
> Stay safe out there... Know when to walk away!
> 
> Steve


Nice poast. I will add to be careful with hinge thickness while setting up with a bore cut in a good leaner (especially in a chair-y species). If u'r hinge is too thick, you can still chair the tree right up the back side of the hinge. If you have to wedge over a tree with a good lean, you have way too much hinge, and the wedging will further increase the chance of chairing. I probably would not leave 3" of holding wood in a 30" aspen, but would have no problem leaving that much in a yellow pine.


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## SteveSr

HuskStihl said:


> Nice poast. I will add to be careful with hinge thickness while setting up with a bore cut in a good leaner (especially in a chair-y species). If u'r hinge is too thick, you can still chair the tree right up the back side of the hinge. If you have to wedge over a tree with a good lean, you have way too much hinge, and the wedging will further increase the chance of chairing. I probably would not leave 3" of holding wood in a 30" aspen, but would have no problem leaving that much in a yellow pine.



I believe that you meant to say 3" HINGE in 30" aspen.

I should have noted that these are GENERAL GUIDELINES and as you have pointed out hinge thickness can vary with species, tree size, and trunk condition.


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## TheJollyLogger

No, I think he meant to say holding wood. It's another term for hinge.


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## SteveSr

TheJollyLogger said:


> No, I think he meant to say holding wood. It's another term for hinge.



Gotta love terminology... We were taught that holding wood is the small section of the trunk opposite of the hinge. I have also seen it referred to as a "strap" and "strap cutting".

I did a quick search and found this OSHA web site that some might find useful...

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/index.html

It shows the technique that I mentioned MINUS the Open-Face notch. I can't understand why Open-Face has not gained more popularity since it is ABSOLUTELY safer - the tree remains attached to the stump ALL the way to the ground. I guess that it may be the small amount of salable lost timber to the notch but how much is a life worth?

I just hope that the OP figures this out before he gets seriously injured or worse yet - killed. If you are making Barber Chairs (consistently like the OP apparently was doing) you are doing something WRONG and need to improve your technique.


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## TheJollyLogger

There are a lot of good things about an open face notch, and many times when a Humboldt or conventional notch is a better choice. At that point you're straying out of 101 territory, and those techniques are best learned in person.


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## HuskStihl

An open face leaves neither a low stump nor a flat butt. If you need the stick to stay on the stump all the way down, a block face, a Swanson, or sniping the undercut can accomplish the same result


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## TheJollyLogger

Not to mention a siswheel or a Dutchman doesn't work worth a Damn with an open face, lol.


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## HuskStihl

TruDat


TheJollyLogger said:


> Not to mention a siswheel or a Dutchman doesn't work worth a Damn with an open face, lol.


TruDat


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## 777funk

I've always cut about a 90 degree face cut. If you leave a wide enough notch the hinge will stay attached until after the tree hits the ground (most of the time it has to be cut). If you go too narrow with the face cut notch (say 30 degrees), the hinge wood breaks clean before the tree hits the ground and up it goes (barber chair in the face if you're not outta there like you should be regardless of cut style).

I think this is called an Open-Faced Notch according to this OSHA link:
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/notches.html

Edit: ha... looks like the answer has already been beat to death.


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## TheJollyLogger

There are times when you want that hinge to break.


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## 777funk

True and it can also be a safety hazard to finish that cut on the ground. But there's usually less momentum at that point regardless. I usually fell with a wide notch. I get out of there as soon as I see the tree start going so I'm not really in harms way if it did barber chair, but regardless, I'd sure rather not risk it. 

All my cuts are on the ground. Chunking up in the tree would also be a different dynamic. I've got zero experience with that.


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## TheJollyLogger

The mindset of "I'm outta there as soon as it starts going" is not a good defense against chair prone trees When a bad chair happens it can be explosive.


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## acer-kid

777funk said:


> so I'm not really in harms way if it did barber chair,



Cute.


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## 777funk

acer-kid said:


> Cute.



I'll be the first to admit I've only felled approx 200 trees. So _Cute_ may be the word for it. I wouldn't claim to be a pro as many here are. But, I've never had a BC in those 200 falls by using a wide notch and not messing with anything that looks dangerous (hard leaners). Hopefully I'll be to the side or outta there if/when it happens. But, no doubt... the 90 degree open faced notch helps in some cases:
http://loggingsafety.com/content/barber-chair-tree-kills-logger-0
If there's not enough angle in the face cut opening the wood has something to pry against and physics says a BC will be much more likely.

Interesting fact (may be well known but first time I've seen this chart):
http://tcia.org/news/safety/numbers-civilian-tree-care-accidents-2012

Looks like 'hit by tree' is the #1 killer. I wonder how many of those are barber chair hits.


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## ILikesEmGreen

777funk said:


> I'll be the first to admit I've felled probably only 200 trees. So _Cute_ may be the word for it. I've never had a BC in those 200 falls by using a wide notch and not messing with anything that looks dangerous (hard leaners). I'm sure it'll happen eventually. Hopefully I'll be to the side or outta there if/when it happens. I'm sure there are times that it's completely out of the blue... but on the same token I'm sure there are signs to look for before even starting the saw.
> 
> Interesting fact (may be well known but first time I've seen this chart):
> http://tcia.org/news/safety/numbers-civilian-tree-care-accidents-2012
> 
> Looks like 'hit by tree' is the #1 killer. I wonder how many of those are barber chair hits.


Reading down a little bit, looks like 3 of them were BC's...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk


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## 777funk

ILikesEmGreen said:


> Reading down a little bit, looks like 3 of them were BC's...



You're right! Thanks. Didn't read down far enough. I read a little more and it's saying only 25 were killed (media reported tree work fatalities) in 2012. That seems like a small number. Can't believe that's even half. They say 64% were 'hit by tree' so that's 16 and only 3 of those were BC. I'm sure there were a lot more tree fatalities than this. If that were the number struck by lightning, I'd believe it. Tree work harm is a lot more likely than getting hit by lightening I'm sure.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding

Preventing the barber chair is as important as getting out of there if it happens. There are few things more complicated than laying down a barber chaired tree that is still attached and half the trunk is over your head.


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## TheJollyLogger

Yeah, this thread got a little derailed. Keep in mind, the type of face cut has nothing to do with preventing a chair. Preventing a chair is all about assessment and what you do on the backcut.


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## acer-kid

TheJollyLogger said:


> Yeah, this thread got a little derailed. Keep in mind, the type of face cut has nothing to do with preventing a chair. Preventing a chair is all about assessment and what you do on the backcut.


I agree with that for the most part.. The face won't matter. In some instances.. It can.


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## Carburetorless

Yep this thread is definitely starting to look like a train wreck.


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## acer-kid

As of ten minutes ago, anyways.


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## number9t

new to the site, and like this thread. Do any of you make sapwood cuts or "bring your corners in" to prevent barberchairs?


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## TheJollyLogger

That will help with twisting and fiber pull out but won't do a thing to prevent chairing.


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## harry398

SteveSr said:


> Gotta love terminology... We were taught that holding wood is the small section of the trunk opposite of the hinge. I have also seen it referred to as a "strap" and "strap cutting".
> 
> I did a quick search and found this OSHA web site that some might find useful...
> 
> https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/index.html
> 
> It shows the technique that I mentioned MINUS the Open-Face notch. I can't understand why Open-Face has not gained more popularity since it is ABSOLUTELY safer - the tree remains attached to the stump ALL the way to the ground. I guess that it may be the small amount of salable lost timber to the notch but how much is a life worth?
> 
> I just hope that the OP figures this out before he gets seriously injured or worse yet - killed. If you are making Barber Chairs (consistently like the OP apparently was doing) you are doing something WRONG and need to improve your technique.





I have been using the open face notch, and conventional. I dont have any knock on the homboldt, and will begin to try it. I see some advantages to it......and I learned alot from the series here. 
I was searching around about Leaning tree's and found this thread and found it interesting. I have not experienced a Barber chair, and I am thankful. 

the triangle is illustrated here..... 

*The open face cut is listed as safest by OSHA*. https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/notches.html


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## harry398

SteveSr said:


> Gotta love terminology... We were taught that holding wood is the small section of the trunk opposite of the hinge. I have also seen it referred to as a "strap" and "strap cutting".
> 
> I did a quick search and found this OSHA web site that some might find useful...
> 
> https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/index.html
> 
> It shows the technique that I mentioned MINUS the Open-Face notch. I can't understand why Open-Face has not gained more popularity since it is ABSOLUTELY safer - the tree remains attached to the stump ALL the way to the ground. I guess that it may be the small amount of salable lost timber to the notch but how much is a life worth?
> 
> I just hope that the OP figures this out before he gets seriously injured or worse yet - killed. If you are making Barber Chairs (consistently like the OP apparently was doing) you are doing something WRONG and need to improve your technique.





I have been using the open face notch, and conventional. I dont have any knock on the homboldt, and will begin to try it. I see some advantages to it......and I learned alot from the series here. 
I was searching around about Leaning tree's and found this thread and found it interesting. I have not experienced a Barber chair, and I am thankful. 

the triangle is illustrated here..... 

*The open face cut is listed as safest by OSHA*. https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/notches.html


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