# Wedge Stacking?



## 137cc (Jan 10, 2016)

So I've been working a fire rehab job in California. And we have all these trainer's from the south that tell us how to fell the trees. They're basically GOL worshippers, its been incredibly frustrating working for them. But I've got a specific question about the way they tell us to wedge trees, specifically stacking wedges. I found this photo on the web, but it's the way they teach:






Please tell me I'm not only one that thinks this method of stacking wedges is garbage. You make two bore cuts directly below your back-cut.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 10, 2016)

Um... are they on drugs?

granted i've done something similar when i had one set back hard, but its not my preferred choice. 

Usually just get one or two going then stack the next two directly in the back cut, maybe with a bit of dirt in em to help keep em from slipping out, rinse repeat as necessary


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## madjoe (Jan 10, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Um... are they on drugs?
> 
> granted i've done something similar when i had one set back hard, but its not my preferred choice.
> 
> Usually just get one or two going then stack the next two directly in the back cut, maybe with a bit of dirt in em to help keep em from slipping out, rinse repeat as necessary


+1. We have a guy that swears up and down this is the way to do it. Ive done like you said and do something like that cause I has one sit back and lean toward a barbed wire fence. I always drive one. Use saw dust and dirt and double stack. Then give each wedge a couple of licks to keep them going in somewhat evenly.


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## 2dogs (Jan 10, 2016)

madjoe said:


> +1. We have a guy that swears up and down this is the way to do it. Ive done like you said and do something like that cause I has one sit back and lean toward a barbed wire fence. I always drive one. Use saw dust and dirt and double stack. Then give each wedge a couple of licks to keep them going in somewhat evenly.


Same here.


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## bitzer (Jan 10, 2016)

Thats total bs. It would be much harder to lift the tree that way. Instead of working with the tapers of two wedges you would be sort of fighting them. Also the added friction along with the wood having to break along the sides of the wedges would add a lot of unecessary effort.


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## windthrown (Jan 11, 2016)

Meh. The same people tell me not to drop start my saws, but I do that anyway. Usually with the brake off. For wedges, I use this method:


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2016)

Probably an unitentional dutchman, making for difficult wedging. If a tilted wedged tree won't fall just refall it.


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## windthrown (Jan 11, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Probably an unitentional dutchman, making for difficult wedging. If a tilted wedged tree won't fall just refall it.



That is like.. way to practical. Please refer to page 346 in the GOL fallers manual and re-post your reply!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2016)

windthrown said:


> That is like.. way to practical. Please refer to page 346 in the GOL fallers manual and re-post your reply!


Lol, Henry, I prefer show boat falling, like trying to make a simple job look difficult. That way I can charge more.


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## TreeswingerPerth (Jan 11, 2016)

I've seen people do that stacking stuff but I still don't get it . If I need a bit more lift I use a hi lift and normal wedges .
Never had a problem , sometimes use my gob / mouth cut as a wedge too . Till it splits !!!


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## 137cc (Jan 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Thats total bs. It would be much harder to lift the tree that way. Instead of working with the tapers of two wedges you would be sort of fighting them. Also the added friction along with the wood having to break along the sides of the wedges would add a lot of unecessary effort.



Couldn't agree more, but if you question this method they give you the pink slip. All while preaching safety! safety! safety!


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## KiwiBro (Jan 11, 2016)

Horizontal stacking is what the cool kids are doing these days.


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## nk14zp (Jan 11, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Meh. The same people tell me not to drop start my saws, but I do that anyway. Usually with the brake off. For wedges, I use this method:
> 
> View attachment 477812


You mean that's not how yer supposed to start them?


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## madjoe (Jan 11, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Meh. The same people tell me not to drop start my saws, but I do that anyway. Usually with the brake off. For wedges, I use this method:
> 
> View attachment 477812


Same here. If my saw gets started, its usually drop started.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Thats total bs. It would be much harder to lift the tree that way. Instead of working with the tapers of two wedges you would be sort of fighting them. Also the added friction along with the wood having to break along the sides of the wedges would add a lot of unecessary effort.



My thoughts exactly.^^^

I do see the concept as another trick in 'your' arsonal though. We may find ourselves in a position where we need to overcome a Falling difficulty.
In a perfect world to me is having at least 2) 10" & 1) 12" K&H in pristine condition along with back ups in my backpack. These wedges have a very low coefficient of friction, yet they start if the tree sets back on your bar even in frozen hard & sort woods. They also doubble stack well without any compound.
They are sleek with rounded corners for side wedging on small diameter when safe to do so, as you know.
Having said that, I see the demo as "over comming a Falling difficulty" if that was there intention.
Apart from that said, The Faller have inadequate equipment.

If all wedges but 10" & 12" k&H were take off the shelves for a year, I wonder how many active interior fallers would ever buy an 8" wedge again? They are crap and make their lives difficult in comparison. 

Moreover; all wedges the same is a bad combination. Hence: One 12". When you are lifting a lot of weight, Its the sleek 10's that will get it done.
I use my 12" to chase and release my 10" Just before I has chased out and its time to stack or doubble stack. You can't often release from the side with heavy weight in the event of "been caught with your pants down"
( same sized wedges like shown above)
So this is a faster trick than making a release wedge or windowing for axe head in the event of this happening and an addition to a doubble stack or stack +triple)... if you are almost there. One I do if my wedges have lost the leading taper is doubbe the saw Kerf.

But then again, what do I know I'm just a flipbook Faller, a living room cutter...lol

I must be a professional Faller because I learnt something today.

Thanks for sharing OP

Always hear someone out, We take what we can and we leave the rest behind.

To do this on a reg basis ? I'll check the;
"Are they high" box as well.


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## 137cc (Jan 11, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Always hear someone out, We take what we can and we leave the rest behind



The problem is if you question any of their methods you get fired. I'm all for learning new techniques to add to the bag of tricks. But all they bloat about is how their methods are superior and safer.
They also preach a boring back-cut on every tree.


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## madhatte (Jan 11, 2016)

I've never bored to stack wedges. I have used split backcuts for small ones but that's not the same. Just stack 'em, dammit, and move on.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2016)

Yep i carry a 10 and 2 12s. Usually the ten and one of the twelves has a good leading edge. The other twelve is chewed off. When I'm in timber where i might possibly hit the good wedge i get that blunt one in there asap and take the good one out. On occaision if a tree sits back and i haven't gotten a wedge in, i will bore the kerf and start a wedge. Once its open enough then get some along side. No need for mumbo jumbo. I rarely ever need more than 3 wedges. Small timber- back cut first, wedge, then face.


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, Henry, I prefer show boat falling, like trying to make a simple job look difficult. That way I can charge more.



Lots of fiber on the stump for such a self- proclaimed high dollar wood cutter.


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Lots of fiber on the stump for such a self- proclaimed high dollar wood cutter.


Lol, that fibre pull was the unitentional dutchmen fault. Lots less waste then your funking cuts. Which doesn't matter anyway, cause all your trees are dens for racoons. Lol


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, that fibre pull was the unitentional dutchmen fault. Lots less waste then your funking cuts. Which doesn't matter anyway, cause all your trees are dens for racoons. Lol


Why would you allow an unintentional dutchman on high dollar wood? You had all the time in the world only cutting two trees per day!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Why would you allow an unintentional dutchman on high dollar wood? You had all the time in the world only cutting two trees per day!


If I recall, the tree was a tapped sawlog. Probably fence wire in it too. Lol
Place nice, and don't be so cocky, you've only been in the bush four years. Lol


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## bitzer (Jan 11, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> If I recall, the tree was a tapped sawlog. Probably fence wire in it too. Lol
> Place nice, and don't be so cocky, you've only been in the bush four years. Lol


Its funny how i've learned to do things with trees you've never even thought of in such a short time. I can save em out without chaining em together. Buck without wedges too. Yee-haw! So why did you quit? I'm confident in the woods. The only place i really feel comfortable.


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## chucker (Jan 11, 2016)

you know you did something right when you can take a frozen hardwood tree with a top heavy spider crown back leaner to the ground without busting it apart! after accomplishing a task like this working with a straight as an arrow pine even swaying in the wind to mothers song , there a piece of cake and able to eat it too!


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 11, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Its funny how i've learned to do things with trees you've never even thought of in such a short time. I can save em out without chaining em together. Buck without wedges too. Yee-haw! So why did you quit? I'm confident in the woods. The only place i really feel comfortable.


Don't get too cocky, its a dangerous game.
Since when did I quit the woods?


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## northmanlogging (Jan 11, 2016)

Hey gypo, you sure get grumpy in the winter... maybe think about getting one of them happy lights? or maybe cable... Play some hockey, dig a tunnel to town... 

Just sayin, rest of the year yer kinda fun...


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## Macman125 (Jan 11, 2016)

I have never in my life seen that technique. Looks like poo lol.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 11, 2016)

OP, i am on the extreme east side and even i think all this GOL and that ridicules wedge stack is some bull chit some desk jocky come up with for little pecker pole falling.

any stick can be back cut if set up right....fact. as far as stacking, if i think i'll need to {rarely] i will start three 10" then only drive the two outside ones till i can get a second on top the middle one. this way they cannot wiggle out side ways.

it would be better in most cases to use a swing dutchman or sizwheel imho.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> OP, i am on the extreme east side and even i think all this GOL and that ridicules wedge stack is some bull chit some desk jocky come up with for little pecker pole falling.
> 
> any stick can be back cut if set up right....fact. as far as stacking, if i think i'll need to {rarely] i will start three 10" then only drive the two outside ones till i can get a second on top the middle one. this way they cannot wiggle out side ways.
> 
> it would be better in most cases to use a swing dutchman or sizwheel imho.



I'ma gonna steal that one


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 12, 2016)

137cc said:


> The problem is if you question any of their methods you get fired. I'm all for learning new techniques to add to the bag of tricks. But all they bloat about is how their methods are superior and safer.
> They also preach a boring back-cut on every tree.


 I'm surprised, they do have higher standards in California than Gol to fall on the fire if my understanding is correct. Tell them you adhere to the higher standards and the real production cutters in the country & around the globe are laughing.

How the heck do they figure Pounding a single stack of steep wedges is safer than alternating sleek wedges on a parellal drive. Much less energy expelled by the Faller and way less energy transfer to alternate sleek wedges. It's always parellal alternation on danger trees for a reason.

Heavyweights?
These guys need basic "grade one page one physics lessons.
Start with the definition of work & energy and force constraint force,distance and moving body


I would make them look retarded with my 22 handle 3. 1/2 pounded against those methods with a 5 pound wedge melter if they like.

The best way to teach this^^^ more so this type of man is to watch him break in your presence, them have 'em watch with out word. After a long silence then look back and say; ....Did I make myself clear back there?? The answer is always YES.
Once you clue them in that there is a lot more to it than the little bubble they live in.... then who knows?


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## windthrown (Jan 12, 2016)

nk14zp said:


> You mean that's not how yer supposed to start them?



No no no no non no no... you are supposed to read the official OSHA approved book that came with the saw, in Spanish, and start the saw with the saw on the ground, your right foot jammed into the back handle, you bent over to start the saw so you are completely off balance on your left knee leaning into the bar, and start the saw from a very weak right arm and wrist position to promote injury. Never mind that the saws are designed by the engineers to be drop started, that the guys at all the saw shops around here drop start saws, and every logger, tree butcher and faller that I know drop starts their saws, except when an insurance or OSHA agent is within eyesight. Or if you are being certified, doing state or federal land work, or some company ********** from the main office is hanging around in the field observing things.


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## windthrown (Jan 12, 2016)

Out here where I am its pretty much all small gyppo logging with a hodge-podge of heavy equipment, saws, fallers and truckers. The logs that I see rolling out of here are a smattering of local mill premium saw logs, export logs, pulp logs and culls for firewood. Some log loads are hauled by shiny new trucks with 'perty low taper #1 peeler Doug fir logs rolling along in front of my house. They are a sight to see. Others are double trailer rigs on old tractors with pulp logs piled high any which way and they look like they are not going to make it another mile down the road, let alone to the mill. The slash and cull logs are hauled out of here with dump trucks. No one gives a shitt how the trees are felled, if wedges were used or how, how the logs are skidded and stacked, how they look when they are hauled out, or what brand of saw was used to fall and buck them. They just care about the trees being felled, cut to length and limbed, loaded, getting them to the mills and getting paid.


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2016)

Gypo Logger said:


> Don't get too cocky, its a dangerous game.
> Since when did I quit the woods?


Quit logging? John you know of me from an online forum. What i do in the world is a little different. I treat every tree and cutting situation with respect. As if it could mangle or kill me. I've got 5 kids to go home to at the end of the day. Thats my goal. To make it home. So do you have any pics of you leaned up on a log lookin real tough?


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Out here where I am its pretty much all small gyppo logging with a hodge-podge of heavy equipment, saws, fallers and truckers. The logs that I see rolling out of here are a smattering of local mill premium saw logs, export logs, pulp logs and culls for firewood. Some log loads are hauled by shiny new trucks with 'perty low taper #1 peeler Doug fir logs rolling along in front of my house. They are a sight to see. Others are double trailer rigs on old tractors with pulp logs piled high any which way and they look like they are not going to make it another mile down the road, let alone to the mill. The slash and cull logs are hauled out of here with dump trucks. No one gives a shitt how the trees are felled, if wedges were used or how, how the logs are skidded and stacked, how they look when they are hauled out, or what brand of saw was used to fall and buck them. They just care about the trees being felled, cut to length and limbed, loaded, getting them to the mills and getting paid.


Yep. The mill doesn't care how the wood gets there. As long as it gets there and in one piece.


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## Bwildered (Jan 12, 2016)

137cc said:


> So I've been working a fire rehab job in California. And we have all these trainer's from the south that tell us how to fell the trees. They're basically GOL worshippers, its been incredibly frustrating working for them. But I've got a specific question about the way they tell us to wedge trees, specifically stacking wedges. I found this photo on the web, but it's the way they teach:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It maybe rubbish, but each wedge has the advantage of being in timber & has less chance of flying out like plastic on dirty plastic, if a wedge does shoot out of the back cut then there is a higher chance of the hinge failing when it sits back down again, they must give reasons though of why this method is preferred & better than any other, or its just a meaningless way of training.
Tanski


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> It maybe rubbish, but each wedge has the advantage of being in timber & has less chance of flying out like plastic on dirty plastic, if a wedge does shoot out of the back cut then there is a higher chance of the hinge failing when it sits back down again, they must give reasons though of why this method is preferred & better than any other, or its just a meaningless way of training.
> Tanski



Well you don't stack wedges without another wedge making room. And yes they sometimes do pop out, but not with any king of bone smashing force, maybe a bruise, but bruises we're used too. When they do pop out there is the other set of wedges already tightened up, they really only pop out when getting started.

Bore cutting is inherently dangerous, anytime you use the tip you risk a kick back, kick backs can maim or kill, so how the **** is that safer?

Not to mention boring into it you don't really know how far you've gone so you could be cutting away the all important hinge wood without even knowing it. or worse you haven't gone deep enough and the wedges will stall out and you spend an hour trying to move a tree with wedges that can't go anywhere.

Also when exactly are you supposed to start this stacking, cause I'd like to see these yahoos try and bore under a started wedge, or better yet get 2 going and make a third hole. I carry extra bars in the Crummy, and extra saws, but I don't carry that many of them.


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## chucker (Jan 12, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Quit logging? John you know of me from an online forum. What i do in the world is a little different. I treat every tree and cutting situation with respect. As if it could mangle or kill me. I've got 5 kids to go home to at the end of the day. Thats my goal. To make it home. So do you have any pics of you leaned up on a log lookin real tough?


 this was a tough and rough day at 100degs. with 70% humidity... no power with the hyd for the lift to roll an pile logs except old man power? kinda got a good feel for the ole timers and their toils with tough conditions.... we are so lucky today !lol


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## 137cc (Jan 12, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> I'm surprised, they do have higher standards in California than Gol to fall on the fire if my understanding is correct. Tell them you adhere to the higher standards and the real production cutters in the country & around the globe are laughing.



This a fire rehab job, not a wildfire suppression job. Basically a big California electric utility hired a company from out of state so they could avoid the 41% comprehensive insurance rate. The company is out of the south, and they hired a company called NATS (North American Training Solutions) to be trainers. These NATS guys are diehard GOL fans. My last phone died otherwise I would post some photos of the horrible stumps they leave (even by GOL standards). 

These NATS guys don't want to hear anything other than yes sir. Since we're around power lines every tree has to have a rope in it. They require a rope in every tree over 10' tall, even ones that have no chance of hitting a powerline. And brag about how they are actively trying to change the ANSI standard to every tree over 10' needs a rope.


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## Gologit (Jan 12, 2016)

137cc said:


> This a fire rehab job, not a wildfire suppression job. Basically a big California electric utility hired a company from out of state so they could avoid the 41% comprehensive insurance rate. The company is out of the south, and they hired a company called NATS (North American Training Solutions) to be trainers. These NATS guys are diehard GOL fans. My last phone died otherwise I would post some photos of the horrible stumps they leave (even by GOL standards).
> 
> These NATS guys don't want to hear anything other than yes sir. Since we're around power lines every tree has to have a rope in it. They require a rope in every tree over 10' tall, even ones that have no chance of hitting a powerline. And brag about how they are actively trying to change the ANSI standard to every tree over 10' needs a rope.



Give it a few months and there will be a lot of burn salvage falling jobs open.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2016)

Here's that tree/stump


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> Here's that tree/stump


So you have to cut them out then? In that instance the bottom two wedges did nothing. If the wood alongside them doesn't break, wheres the lift?


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## bitzer (Jan 12, 2016)

chucker said:


> this was a tough and rough day at 100degs. with 70% humidity... no power with the hyd for the lift to roll an pile logs except old man power? kinda got a good feel for the ole timers and their toils with tough conditions.... we are so lucky today !lol


Its fun to do **** the hard way sometimes.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2016)

bitzer said:


> So you have to cut them out then? In that instance the bottom two wedges did nothing. If the wood alongside them doesn't break, wheres the lift?


Didn't have much backlean, didn't need much lift. Tree was used, to photograph the method, in the absence of a convenient heavy leaner.

Pretty sure if he needed more lift, he would have been able to get it and the wood in each of those lifts would have broken free of the tree in the process. Using this cut on such a sized tree here during an assessment would likely never result in gaining a felling ticket.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 12, 2016)

why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?


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## Gologit (Jan 12, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?


 
Because it would be a disaster?


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## KiwiBro (Jan 12, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?


Hmmm, I double dare Gypo Logger. Extra points for multiple wedge stacks.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 12, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Because it would be a disaster?


very likely


KiwiBro said:


> Hmmm, I double dare Gyppo Logger. Extra points for multiple wedge stacks.


ha ha ha


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## northmanlogging (Jan 12, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?



because someone would have to iron out a hard hat and then find gainful employment.

As far as getting ANSI to require roping tree... well ANSI requires chaps, and safety glasses, I own neither.


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## Bwildered (Jan 13, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Well you don't stack wedges without another wedge making room. And yes they sometimes do pop out, but not with any king of bone smashing force, maybe a bruise, but bruises we're used too. When they do pop out there is the other set of wedges already tightened up, they really only pop out when getting started.
> 
> Bore cutting is inherently dangerous, anytime you use the tip you risk a kick back, kick backs can maim or kill, so how the **** is that safer?
> 
> ...


Rather than just knocking the method I'm just looking at the pluses & minuses of it, the pluses are you need to carry & use less wedges, they are less likely to fly out, they can't be driven skewif because they're captivated in a slot, there is less chance of the tree sitting back down & breaking the hinge.
The minuses are you have to do another couple of bore cuts of adequate depth that an experienced faller should be capable of doing repeatedly, you have to be able to gauge how much lift is needed before starting as another bore cut once loaded is not an option, training experienced fellers in a different method.
Fanks


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## Gypo Logger (Jan 13, 2016)

View attachment 478280
I've stacked wedges a few times, but what happens when they won't lift enough to commit the tree, even though the tree is commited to the direction of fall? Two choices, blast thru all remaining holding wood and let the chips fall where they may, or just refall and rewedge uncooperative stupid tree. Lol
All fine and dandy info, but tree size and species needs to be considered. Gravity comes to mind.View attachment 478280


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## bitzer (Jan 13, 2016)

If the tree is leaning towards where you've aimed it and you still can't get it to fall you've got other problems. And constantly talking about "refalling" trees is not the way to go. Have I cut trees off the stump because they sat back and weren't coming back or the wind was blowing hard and they were going to split? Yes i have. I'm sure everyone has at some point. But putting a new face and new wedges in a tree is an ugly situation. You've already compromised the tree with your first cuts. You've said it so many times lately i had to say something. That and un-intentional dutchmans. Check to see if your face is clean before you back cut it. Pretty simple. Cocky or not John safety is number one in my book. Maybe you see my swing cuts and other bs i try as not safe, but my methods are effective 99% of the time. It took me a lot of practice to get there and i know my limits even though i tend to push them to learn new things.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 13, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> Rather than just knocking the method I'm just looking at the pluses & minuses of it, the pluses are you need to carry & use less wedges, they are less likely to fly out, they can't be driven skewif because they're captivated in a slot, there is less chance of the tree sitting back down & breaking the hinge.
> The minuses are you have to do another couple of bore cuts of adequate depth that an experienced faller should be capable of doing repeatedly, you have to be able to gauge how much lift is needed before starting as another bore cut once loaded is not an option, training experienced fellers in a different method.
> Fanks



I hear ya, its just that the pluses don't come near enough to make up for the minuses. Stacking wedges isn't something every Tom Rick and Larry should ever do, its fairly advanced crazyness. Compounding the problem with adding more bore cuts adds more variables to an already iffy situation. And like most things SSD/GOL related its unnecessarily complicated and wastes even more precious time. Time spent at the stump wacking wedges or messing with the back cut is time spent waiting for something to hit you in the head, once the back cut is started there is no stability in the tree, even with the goofy trigger ssd/gol crud, the bastard can and will go at anytime, trees fight back and they are sneaky ****ers.

I personally get nervous when I have to stack wedges as its more pressure on the hinge/hold wood, both flex and tension.


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## madhatte (Jan 14, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> like most things SSD/GOL related its unnecessarily complicated and wastes even more precious time.



This is exactly my concern. Time spent farting around under the tree is time I could get whacked by that tree, especially if I'm already tired from pounding wedges. If I can swing it so that gravity does some or all of the work for me, I'm already gone before anything dangerous happens.


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## bitzer (Jan 14, 2016)

How exactly do you have to carry less wedges around? Three pretty much gets the job done. One to open, two to stack. Unless its big timber. When stacking wedges the entire taper of the wedge has contact with the tree. With the bored stack only a very small amount of wood is touching the wedge. Think about it. The wedge is being driven straight. It would be like sandwiching a wedge between 2x4s. How much of the wedge (which is supporting enormous pressure) is actually contacting the wood ? Wedges have a taper for a reason and this method is negating that. Thats aside from the fact it is a ridiculous waste of time. Trying to re-invent the wheel.


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## x308 (Jan 14, 2016)

What is meant by SSD and GOL? Research was not helpful.


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## Bwildered (Jan 14, 2016)

bitzer said:


> How exactly do you have to carry less wedges around? Three pretty much gets the job done. One to open, two to stack. Unless its big timber. When stacking wedges the entire taper of the wedge has contact with the tree. With the bored stack only a very small amount of wood is touching the wedge. Think about it. The wedge is being driven straight. It would be like sandwiching a wedge between 2x4s. How much of the wedge (which is supporting enormous pressure) is actually contacting the wood ? Wedges have a taper for a reason and this method is negating that. Thats aside from the fact it is a ridiculous waste of time. Trying to re-invent the wheel.


I'm only going off the posted pictures & explainations of backing up doubled up wedges which means an equal amount in reserve to stop the tree sitting back & possibly breaking the hinge. Plastic wedges aren't much good for lifting anything heavy anyway & with our HWDs they are as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, that method with a single wedge is the recommended way to get small poles down against the lean. So far on the surface I'm seeing more positives than negatives.
Ta


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## bitzer (Jan 14, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> I'm only going off the posted pictures & explainations of backing up doubled up wedges which means an equal amount in reserve to stop the tree sitting back & possibly breaking the hinge. Plastic wedges aren't much good for lifting anything heavy anyway & with our HWDs they are as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, that method with a single wedge is the recommended way to get small poles down against the lean. So far on the surface I'm seeing more positives than negatives.
> Ta


So do you use metal falling wedges? Like the maggys? We've already been over how hard your hardwoods are. If a tree is cut up properly and a person is not trying to defy an insurmountable lean the basics of wedging apply to any tree. Its essentially replacing material you have removed by cutting as well as adding material to correct the lean of the tree until it tips. Making multiple kerfs below the back cut is removing more material that needs to be replaced. Therby making more work for the wedger. Hence the wedgie has the advantage and he has been known to kill.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2016)

x308 said:


> What is meant by SSD and GOL? Research was not helpful.



SSD=Swedish Stump Dance, GOL is Game of Logging, game of logging is a course folks are sometimes "required" to take in parts of the US in order to fall trees, SSD is an insult to GOL, because GOL involves a great deal of dancing around a stump in circles from one side to the other, and was "invented" in Sweden.



Bwildered said:


> I'm only going off the posted pictures & explainations of backing up doubled up wedges which means an equal amount in reserve to stop the tree sitting back & possibly breaking the hinge. Plastic wedges aren't much good for lifting anything heavy anyway & with our HWDs they are as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, that method with a single wedge is the recommended way to get small poles down against the lean. So far on the surface I'm seeing more positives than negatives.
> Ta



Plastic isn't much good for lifting how? And like I said before you back up stacked wedges with another wedge or another stack of wedges, sometimes a whole box of stacked wedges.


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## Woos31 (Jan 14, 2016)

If wedges can lift trees 10ft plus across the stump, then I'd say they can lift pretty hard. I'm sure the three wedges bored in and stacked in OP pic has advantages somewhere I don't comprehend, however as mentioned earlier that a lot of time at the stump beating your head in, beating stuff loose above you, and flat out melting wedges. Then when your all done you get to cut your wedges out if they ain't broke. Like I said I'm sure there's benefit I don't understand but also don't agree with the idea, there's a lot of other ways to get er done than having to chase that goose up a tree. 
As for their ANSI ruling, I'd love to be a be on the landing when they brought that to attention at ANY logging job on the west coast.........OH man dat be a good show


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## 137cc (Jan 14, 2016)

bitzer said:


> How exactly do you have to carry less wedges around? Three pretty much gets the job done. One to open, two to stack. Unless its big timber. When stacking wedges the entire taper of the wedge has contact with the tree. With the bored stack only a very small amount of wood is touching the wedge. Think about it. The wedge is being driven straight. It would be like sandwiching a wedge between 2x4s. How much of the wedge (which is supporting enormous pressure) is actually contacting the wood ? Wedges have a taper for a reason and this method is negating that. Thats aside from the fact it is a ridiculous waste of time. Trying to re-invent the wheel.



Thanks, this is basically my same opinion on this stacking method. You explained its obvious shortfalls better than I could. 



northmanlogging said:


> SSD=Swedish Stump Dance



That's hilarious, definitely gonna start using that term.


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## windthrown (Jan 14, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Yep. The mill doesn't care how the wood gets there. As long as it gets there and in one piece.



Well, the mill also cares about length. Too short and they will not take them. Too long, and they may charge for cutting them. That happened to a guy I knew in Roseburg. He had a load of logs rejected by the mill for being too short. So he cut his next load of logs long, and they billed him for the cuts! He was furious at them for that. Fortunately for him there were a lot of mills near Roseburg at that time ('04) and he was able to sell the shorties in Drain. He also found another mill to sell his logs to.


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## windthrown (Jan 14, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Hey gypo, you sure get grumpy in the winter... maybe think about getting one of them happy lights? or maybe cable... Play some hockey, dig a tunnel to town...
> 
> Just sayin, rest of the year yer kinda fun...



Do not worry about John staying busy in winter. He is out making snow angels in the snow, nekked.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 14, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Do not worry about John staying busy in winter. He is out making snow angels in the snow, nekked.


eeeheeww


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## Bwildered (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm not disputing plastic wedges don't lift, they just don't lift much before they start to do everything but lift. I think the method with wedges stacked in bore cuts gets the most out of the poor little things safer, the negatives some have put up are a bit limp, like having to do bore cuts to a depth greater than the length of a wedge, if you're a competent Faller & that's an unsafe activity you're in the wrong game. Boring out the centre of the hinge isn't an unsafe practice or method either. Having to cut out the wedges after is a mystery as well, as a hit with the back of an axe on top of the mortise cuts will break them out easily, all I'm seeing is resistance to another method without any reasonable grounds.
Stanks


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## KiwiBro (Jan 15, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> I'm not disputing plastic wedges don't lift, they just don't lift much before they start to do everything but lift. I think the method with wedges stacked in bore cuts gets the most out of the poor little things safer, the negatives some have put up are a bit limp, like having to do bore cuts to a depth greater than the length of a wedge, if you're a competent Faller & that's an unsafe activity you're in the wrong game. Boring out the centre of the hinge isn't an unsafe practice or method either. Having to cut out the wedges after is a mystery as well, as a hit with the back of an axe on top of the mortise cuts will break them out easily, all I'm seeing is resistance to another method without any reasonable grounds.
> Stanks


Get to it on a good sized back leaner and post plenty of pictures please.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> eeeheeww



Oh, I forgot to add that he is using a wedge making his snow angels. Nekked.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> Get to it on a good sized back leaner and post plenty of pictures please.



Too bad I never hosted a GTG at my ex's place, as many wanted to here. She has a dozen good sized pistol butts, a few dozen bad leaners, and all kinds of crap trees that needed to be dropped because the previous owner high graded or 'select cut' and left all the crap, snags and culls standing on her property. Those would have made for good videos, and lots of different techniques for bore cutting, off angle back cuts, stacked wedges, rope work, and the like. Glad I did not though, after what happend to Scotty and his wife at their later GTG. There is always at least one turd that shows up.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 15, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Too bad I never hosted a GTG at my ex's place, as many wanted to here. She has a dozen good sized pistol butts, a few dozen bad leaners, and all kinds of crap trees that needed to be dropped because the previous owner high graded or 'select cut' and left all the crap, snags and culls standing on her property. Those would have made for good videos, and lots of different techniques for bore cutting, off angle back cuts, stacked wedges, rope work, and the like. Glad I did not though, after what happend to Scotty and his wife at their later GTG. There is always at lest one turd that shows up.


The chance to learn from pros in a bunch of challenging trees would be a great thing indeed.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> The chance to learn from pros in a bunch of challenging trees would be a great thing indeed.



At that time it would have been. I have since pretty much figured out the methods for doing bore and off angle back cuts to better control the falls in a lot of tall redwoods, leaning pines and twisted eucs down on California on a property that I help manage in Mendocino Co. I trade tree work for vacation housing, abalone, and top quality cellar wine. I posted some photos of the early redwood falling here back in '07 or '08, but the AS hack wiped them all out. I do not have backups of those anywhere.


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## Bwildered (Jan 15, 2016)

KiwiBro said:


> Get to it on a good sized back leaner and post plenty of pictures please.


????? In our HWDs! I'll be successfully doing soft Dutchman cuts before I progress onto that next level of impossible.
Fangst


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## bitzer (Jan 15, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> I'm not disputing plastic wedges don't lift, they just don't lift much before they start to do everything but lift. I think the method with wedges stacked in bore cuts gets the most out of the poor little things safer, the negatives some have put up are a bit limp, like having to do bore cuts to a depth greater than the length of a wedge, if you're a competent Faller & that's an unsafe activity you're in the wrong game. Boring out the centre of the hinge isn't an unsafe practice or method either. Having to cut out the wedges after is a mystery as well, as a hit with the back of an axe on top of the mortise cuts will break them out easily, all I'm seeing is resistance to another method without any reasonable grounds.
> Stanks


So removing more wood than necessary in the back cut of a tree is ok, thereby setting yourself up for more work and more material to add? Its time consuming and pointless. I wedge trees every day with no problem. If i know its going go need more than a double stack and it has to go one way then it gets jacked. The bore cuts and how deep they are is not the issue. Further compromising a tree when it is not necessary is futile. The tree will wedge MUCH harder when the wedges are in contact with wood instead of another wedge. They have to squeeze into that kerf you made until you drive them in far enough to break the wood away from the sides. Plastic wedges are meant for lifting trees, not breaking wood. I know ur aussie hardwoods are very soecial and can not be tamed, but here in the timid north we swing or wedge our trees with the help of gravity in a expediant manner. Don't worry, i will give you new reasons every day if you like. Whats your name by the way? I like to know who i'm debating with. I think we've arrived at that station eh mate?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 15, 2016)

windthrown, there is a big difference between a high grade and a proper selection. just saying, they are not the same prescription even if some greedy loggers did one for the other.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> windthrown, there is a big difference between a high grade and a proper selection. just saying, they are not the same prescription even if some greedy loggers did one for the other.



I know that, and her property was badly high graded. My original cruise assessment and several others confirmed it, including a guy named George Fenn who taught me a lot about tree management, and from the state that came out to do the forest plan. They took all the good timber and left all the crap trees. They also did not pay the federal taxes and stuck my ex with that as well. She was naïve when she bought that place. She had a choice of paying the taxes, suing the old owners for the taxes, or re-planting it and putting it under a forest plan. She did the forest plan and replanted thousands of trees when I lived there. If I stayed there I would have clear cut the bad parts 10 acres at a time and just replanted it, piece meal. There is just no fixing high graded stands. To get high quality Doug fir, you need to plant them in the sun, grow them as a stand and push the crowns up uniformly, and thin them at intervals to get high quality low taper. I went to tree school at OSU.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 15, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> I'm not disputing plastic wedges don't lift, they just don't lift much before they start to do everything but lift. I think the method with wedges stacked in bore cuts gets the most out of the poor little things safer, the negatives some have put up are a bit limp, like having to do bore cuts to a depth greater than the length of a wedge, if you're a competent Faller & that's an unsafe activity you're in the wrong game. Boring out the centre of the hinge isn't an unsafe practice or method either. Having to cut out the wedges after is a mystery as well, as a hit with the back of an axe on top of the mortise cuts will break them out easily, all I'm seeing is resistance to another method without any reasonable grounds.
> Stanks



take a long hard look at that picture I posted earlier, there are multiple stacks of three, those where started before the jack came into play, if you have trouble using plastic wedges try aiming yer wacking stick a little more carefully, sort of the point of using an axe with a square poll is to not melt or have wedges get crooked.

like madhatte and several others have stated, removing material from the lift side just means more work to replace that material. It also means loosing more lift with the wedges you have, since they won't do anything until they compress the fibers on both sides rather then just one, for instance a stack of 2 wedges wedge on wedge only compresses fiber on the extreme sides of the stack, stacking into plunge cuts, compresses fibers on both sides of every wedge. Not to mention having to stuff an extra 2-3 inches of wedge into a hole before it even makes contact.

Also, boring is dangerous it invites a kickback there is no better way to get a kick back then boring, granted "professionals" with "professional" training should be able to bore cut without getting hurt, and I bore all the time, its just not something I use first, because its dangerous. Also the part you seem to be forgetting is that your talking to PRODUCTION cutters here, some more then others yes. Folks that hand cut professionally don't have time or energy to **** about with shitty methods and half baked ideas, we use what works and generally can see from 5 feet away what works and what does not.

Keep in mind the same ass hats that are demanding the OP use this method are also demanding and trying to force a rule change to require EVERYONE to rope a tree bigger then most Christmas/Yule trees. Its ****ing moronic peroid.


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

Yeeeeeeeee haaaaaaah!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 15, 2016)

That right there will be the start of more then a few brawls


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## rwoods (Jan 15, 2016)

I have just one question for you wedge stacking pros - how much did Toyota pay you guys to star in the RAV4 commercial? 

Oh, one more question did NM get his shirt back, or did Mr, Rav get to keep it?

 Ron


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## windthrown (Jan 15, 2016)

From the new movie,_ Tree Roping_


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 15, 2016)

Ron, lol.

WT, weren't bustin ya chops or nothin, its just that term high grade rubs me wrong.......i seen alot of it here. sorry, i would addressed you by name but for the life of me i can't remember it. happens more and more.....very frustrating.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 15, 2016)

Treeslayer, it's Hank. And for the record, I still love my non-pro clamshell MS310 Hank helped me procure many years ago. My first 'real' saw (relative to the saws I had been murdering) and the first act of generosity I experienced from anyone on this site.


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)

No problemo, Slayer. There was a high grade job done down the highway from me here last summer. It only has wolf trees, skinny 6 inch 40 foot firs and bad leaners left. I hate seeing them, but they are common here. Guy next door to that crappy job is doing a bang-up slick cut on 20 acres. He will have a perfect growing setup for the next round of planted fir trees there. World of difference. This is all small mom and pop woodland territory here, the big commercial stuff is farther east in the Mt Hood Nat. Forest.

Kiwi: I go by the name of Hank or Henry on AS now. Goes better with my avatar and keeps the Bushy Apes guessing. Glad you like the 310 still. I sold/gave my last 310 (I had a series of them) to my nephew. They are good saws. I tried like hell to get it to run with a stock 361, but I could not get quite that out of it with muffler and carb mods. They are the best saws of that series though.


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## 137cc (Jan 16, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> ????? In our HWDs! I'll be successfully doing soft Dutchman cuts before I progress onto that next level of impossible.
> Fangst



If you're still defending this garbage method of stacking wedges, then any dutchman on purpose is way beyond your timber felling knowledge.



Bwildered said:


> I'm only going off the posted pictures & explainations of backing up doubled up wedges which means an equal amount in reserve to stop the tree sitting back & possibly breaking the hinge. Plastic wedges aren't much good for lifting anything heavy anyway & with our HWDs they are as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, that method with a single wedge is the recommended way to get small poles down against the lean. So far on the surface I'm seeing more positives than negatives.
> Ta



Oh so you think your large eastern hardwoods weigh more than average left coast softwoods, cool story bro.


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## bitzer (Jan 16, 2016)

137cc said:


> If you're still defending this garbage method of stacking wedges, then any dutchman on purpose is way beyond your timber felling knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so you think your large eastern hardwoods weigh more than average left coast softwoods, cool story bro.


Hes from down under mate. Not the states. He and i had a discussion a few months ago about swinging trees. He said it couldn't be done beyond 90 degrees and even that was very unlikely. He had aslso never swung a tree in his life with an intentional dutchman up to that point. I backed up my side with pics of a soft dutchman swing i did from start to finish from a job i was cutting during the course of the thread. He still said i was full of crap. Then proceeded to tell me how hard his hardwoods are. I live in WI and all i cut is hardwood. The general mechanics of timber falling are the same across the board. Species to species vary obviously. Even tree to tree. Hold wood is different, etc. The more he talks the less i know he knows. Thats why i keep him talking with obvious questions, but at the same time proving my point that i am correct because i do this for a living every day.


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## Bwildered (Jan 16, 2016)

bitzer said:


> So removing more wood than necessary in the back cut of a tree is ok, thereby setting yourself up for more work and more material to add? Its time consuming and pointless. I wedge trees every day with no problem. If i know its going go need more than a double stack and it has to go one way then it gets jacked. The bore cuts and how deep they are is not the issue. Further compromising a tree when it is not necessary is futile. The tree will wedge MUCH harder when the wedges are in contact with wood instead of another wedge. They have to squeeze into that kerf you made until you drive them in far enough to break the wood away from the sides. Plastic wedges are meant for lifting trees, not breaking wood. I know ur aussie hardwoods are very soecial and can not be tamed, but here in the timid north we swing or wedge our trees with the help of gravity in a expediant manner. Don't worry, i will give you new reasons every day if you like. Whats your name by the way? I like to know who i'm debating with. I think we've arrived at that station eh mate?


In regards to breaking out the mortised timber of bore cut, here's another little experiment you can do, pop a dangerous deep bore cut 1/2" from the top of a stump if you can, place a wedge into it & hit it with 20 oz claw hammer, you will be able to easily break out the timber above the wedge with a couple of half hearted taps with the hammer, so in the grand scheme of things when you belt a wedge in with a 4 lb axe it's nothing & not going to make wedging a tree any harder. 
Some mongrel days I might wedge 50% of the trees I fall & I only carry one alloy wedge, anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go. I don't use plastic wedges in the bush as they are less than useless, but have found them really handy when I hang a solid core door getting it to the right height as they are nice & slippery.
Ta


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## Bwildered (Jan 16, 2016)

137cc said:


> If you're still defending this garbage method of stacking wedges, then any dutchman on purpose is way beyond your timber felling knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so you think your large eastern hardwoods weigh more than average left coast softwoods, cool story bro.



What's garbage about it? It's safer. So what if another wedge has to be used to get the same amount of lift as two back to back.
Wrong country bro.
Thangst


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## Bwildered (Jan 16, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Hes from down under mate. Not the states. He and i had a discussion a few months ago about swinging trees. He said it couldn't be done beyond 90 degrees and even that was very unlikely. He had aslso never swung a tree in his life with an intentional dutchman up to that point. I backed up my side with pics of a soft dutchman swing i did from start to finish from a job i was cutting during the course of the thread. He still said i was full of crap. Then proceeded to tell me how hard his hardwoods are. I live in WI and all i cut is hardwood. The general mechanics of timber falling are the same across the board. Species to species vary obviously. Even tree to tree. Hold wood is different, etc. The more he talks the less i know he knows. Thats why i keep him talking with obvious questions, but at the same time proving my point that i am correct because i do this for a living every day.


Coming from some one that seems to be a sawn off hero that can't even do a small scale experiment on a sapling to prove himself wrong that's hilarious. Maybe a hacksaw is too much for you & would be too dangerous or embarrassing!
Thanski


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## Gologit (Jan 16, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> In regards to breaking out the mortised timber of bore cut, here's another little experiment you can do, pop a dangerous deep bore cut 1/2" from the top of a stump if you can, place a wedge into it & hit it with 20 oz claw hammer, you will be able to easily break out the timber above the wedge with a couple of half hearted taps with the hammer, so in the grand scheme of things when you belt a wedge in with a 4 lb axe it's nothing & not going to make wedging a tree any harder.
> Some mongrel days I might wedge 50% of the trees I fall & I only carry one alloy wedge, anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go. I don't use plastic wedges in the bush as they are less than useless, but have found them really handy when I hang a solid core door getting it to the right height as they are nice & slippery.
> Ta



I'm glad that you're not falling anywhere around me.


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## bitzer (Jan 16, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> Coming from some one that seems to be a sawn off hero that can't even do a small scale experiment on a sapling to prove himself wrong that's hilarious. Maybe a hacksaw is too much for you & would be too dangerous or embarrassing!
> Thanski


I was wondering when the jokes about my manhood or penis size would start. That experiment was your idea. I did mine with two real trees and a bunch of pictures. When i asked you for yours you said you didn't want to waste a broom stick. I never said bore cutting was dangerous. To me its just a waste of time and that means money. If you only carry one wedge than how do you stack them? I know you said you've never tried it, but why defend it so vehemently then? Wedge on wood has a lot more friction than wedge on wedge. You said so yourself. Breaking the wood out after isn't the issue either. Its just more time which means more money. You must be paid by the hour.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2016)

in my opinion, GOL is more dangerous. at least in big timber.


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## rwoods (Jan 16, 2016)

Just the observation of a trespassing firewood hack - time is precious to most folks. Translated here to mean efficiency/productivity and safety.

The described GOL method appears to be neither as efficient nor as productive as proper stacking wedge on wedge. Overall it doesn't appear to me to be much safer, if at all. The facts behind these conclusions have already been stated.

With all due respect to my Aussie friend, BW, my time is too precious to waste it arguing with him over techniques. He knows you can swing a tree and he knows those useless plastic wedges are used to fall trees bigger than any he has ever cut. I am sure he would agree that he is as hard headed as those Aussie trees of his; an attribute with its own pros and cons.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Jan 16, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> What's garbage about it? It's safer. So what if another wedge has to be used to get the same amount of lift as two back to back.
> Wrong country bro.
> Thangst



Alright Bewildered, how is it any safer?

Take yer time.


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## Gologit (Jan 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Alright Bewildered, how is it any safer?
> 
> Take yer time.


 We keep making the same mistake. We're trying to overcome inexperience and ignorance with common sense, logic and the excellent advice of people who actually know what they're doing. In most cases it might work. In this case, not so much.
Some times you just have to quit beating your head against the wall.


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## windthrown (Jan 16, 2016)




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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2016)

Gologit said:


> We keep making the same mistake. We're trying to overcome inexperience and ignorance with common sense, logic and the excellent advice of people who actually know what they're doing. In most cases it might work. In this case, not so much.
> Some times you just have to quit beating your head against the wall.


yes sir......but whats more frustrating to me is trying to explain to some one that wants to know.........i just seem to have a hard time typing in a way folks can understand...........and of course i don't want any one to get hurt.


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## Gologit (Jan 16, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> yes sir......but whats more frustrating to me is trying to explain to some one that wants to know.........i just seem to have a hard time typing in a way folks can understand...........and of course i don't want any one to get hurt.



You explain things just fine. Don't worry about it. A
lot of people don't really want advice anyway. They just want you to validate whatever goofy idea they already have set in their mind.
You can't do anything with people like that.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2016)

i know.......but some times its a friend and i wish i could get on mah private chopper here and fly over to show them lol.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 16, 2016)

No help < reading < photos < videos < personal instruction.
Always grateful for at least the last four.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 16, 2016)

Gologit said:


> You explain things just fine. Don't worry about it. A
> lot of people don't really want advice anyway. They just want you to validate whatever goofy idea they already have set in their mind.
> You can't do anything with people like that.



Do you just copy and paste this? cause you say it a lot.


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## Gologit (Jan 16, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Do you just copy and paste this? cause you say it a lot.



No cut and paste. But you're right, I do say it a lot. I'm old and old people tend to repeat themselves.
It's a damn shame that we have to.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 16, 2016)

Its an arrogance problem, that old dude don't know ****, I went to college I paid to learn form an old dude that paid to listen to some other old dude that learned his **** for free from some other old dude. or dudette whatever....


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## HuskStihl (Jan 16, 2016)

What I don't understand about the method in question is where the lift comes from. To drive a wedge into a horizontal bar-width bore, you will have to break fibers to get the wedge in. I guessing you bore close enough together that the wood breaks easily, but it seems like u'r fighting yourself. I'm not explaining it right, but if you walked up to a tree, bored in horizontally, and started pounding a wedge into the bore, I doubt you'd get very far


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 16, 2016)

thats pretty much my take on it John. developed for pecker poles i'd say.


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## Bwildered (Jan 17, 2016)

bitzer said:


> I was wondering when the jokes about my manhood or penis size would start. That experiment was your idea. I did mine with two real trees and a bunch of pictures. When i asked you for yours you said you didn't want to waste a broom stick. I never said bore cutting was dangerous. To me its just a waste of time and that means money. If you only carry one wedge than how do you stack them? I know you said you've never tried it, but why defend it so vehemently then? Wedge on wood has a lot more friction than wedge on wedge. You said so yourself. Breaking the wood out after isn't the issue either. Its just more time which means more money. You must be paid by the hour.


If you had done your test with a surveyor & an engineer I'd be inclined to believe your story, but without that you're only guessing where the lean was or the C of G was, with a well formed concentric sapling or pole it is easily determined & impossible to get a line if fall anywhere beyond 90' to the line of the lean only by cutting. I can see why the wedging method is being pushed & can see why it can work, you say the opposite without having done it either. It looks like we should both try it & report back.
Tanski


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## KiwiBro (Jan 17, 2016)

Pine will hold on and swing over 90 degrees. None of the gums I have dropped will allow much swing. At least not with my current bag of tricks. Biggish back leaning gums get the 10t wedge if I think the hinge will handle it.


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## Bwildered (Jan 17, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Alright Bewildered, how is it any safer?
> 
> Take yer time.


If you had taken your time to read what I said, it's already been said & you don't have to go too far back to read it either. The reasons for why this method has been pushed by the trainers hasn't yet been explained, but I'd be saying that it is a safety aspect, which is front & foremost these days & the sacrifice of a little time to achieve it is the price industry has to pay to reduce accidents, workers comp payments & industry deaths. Our logging industry 30 years ago was full of hillbilly cutters killing themselves hand over fist, then they gradually changed the industrial laws, so that now if anybody is negligent in their duty of care they can be sued for millions in a common law court for negligence, that goes from the land owner up the chain to the owners of the mill, that's why they implement training programs to cover their arses, but they still want the job done cheaper every year which is a total contradiction & the only way around to make money is mechanisation, or the people doing the job will have to take shortcuts, from what I can see some are defending the later.
But back to the question, it's safer because the wedge has less chance of bouncing or skewing out of where it's being driven into, plastic on plastic only has 1/2 the resistance of bouncing out of the cut as one with timber friction on each face & the incline of the slope is double that of a single wedge which isn't working in the favour of stopping a wedge bouncing out. If wedges bounce out there is more chance of the hinge breaking when the tree sits back down with force, which leads to a Faller being caught by a tree going the wrong way with no escape route, not all fallers may back up their doubled up wedges to prevent this happening or had a few close calls to learn what to do from a near miss. Statistically 1 in 2 million minor incidents will cause a fatality in the building industry, forestry is probably twice as dangerous as that at least.
Thansk


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## bitzer (Jan 17, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> If you had done your test with a surveyor & an engineer I'd be inclined to believe your story, but without that you're only guessing where the lean was or the C of G was, with a well formed concentric sapling or pole it is easily determined & impossible to get a line if fall anywhere beyond 90' to the line of the lean only by cutting. I can see why the wedging method is being pushed & can see why it can work, you say the opposite without having done it either. It looks like we should both try it & report back.
> Tanski


Top weight plays a major role. Without it the stem would just sit there. I know from experience. 

On the stacking- just because the govt thinks its safe and effective doesn't make it so.


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## Bwildered (Jan 17, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Top weight plays a major role. Without it the stem would just sit there. I know from experience.
> 
> On the stacking- just because the govt thinks its safe and effective doesn't make it so.


Well that would be perpendicular with no lean then & C of G is not outside the basal area & the soft Dutchman cutting is knawing away the support from under it in the direction you want it to topple.
Ta


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## Woody912 (Jan 17, 2016)

probably a stupid question but why are there not wedges available with more lift (blunter)? Won't stay in the kerf? I'd never be able to use a 11" wedge in most of the trees that I cut


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 17, 2016)

there is, they are triple taper. they have another angle about 2/3 up the wedge. i never saw a short one though.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> If you had taken your time to read what I said, it's already been said & you don't have to go too far back to read it either. The reasons for why this method has been pushed by the trainers hasn't yet been explained, but I'd be saying that it is a safety aspect, which is front & foremost these days & the sacrifice of a little time to achieve it is the price industry has to pay to reduce accidents, workers comp payments & industry deaths. Our logging industry 30 years ago was full of hillbilly cutters killing themselves hand over fist, then they gradually changed the industrial laws, so that now if anybody is negligent in their duty of care they can be sued for millions in a common law court for negligence, that goes from the land owner up the chain to the owners of the mill, that's why they implement training programs to cover their arses, but they still want the job done cheaper every year which is a total contradiction & the only way around to make money is mechanisation, or the people doing the job will have to take shortcuts, from what I can see some are defending the later.
> But back to the question, it's safer because the wedge has less chance of bouncing or skewing out of where it's being driven into, plastic on plastic only has 1/2 the resistance of bouncing out of the cut as one with timber friction on each face & the incline of the slope is double that of a single wedge which isn't working in the favour of stopping a wedge bouncing out. If wedges bounce out there is more chance of the hinge breaking when the tree sits back down with force, which leads to a Faller being caught by a tree going the wrong way with no escape route, not all fallers may back up their doubled up wedges to prevent this happening or had a few close calls to learn what to do from a near miss. Statistically 1 in 2 million minor incidents will cause a fatality in the building industry, forestry is probably twice as dangerous as that at least.
> Thansk



Because the government says makes it right?

Yes wedge on wedge has more likely hood to pop out, but it is manageable, both when backed up, and by using just a touch of dirt between wedges, simple easy method that doesn't waste time under a crippled back leaner.

Also I've never had the hold wood fail backwards, I've cut too much off yes, and I've had it fail sideways, but a wedge will hold it from going backwards if the cutter doesn't cut all the hold wood, and with back leaners i always leave more hold wood anyway, despite if it requires me to beat the wedges a little harder.

Only once have I had a tree sit back after lifting off the wedges, and it was being pulled by a cheap rope that broke, luckily the hold wood did its job. that and the kung foo wedge toss from 3 feet away that kept it from tipping all the way back. Now I tighten up a few wedges before pulling even with cable.

The point you seam to be missing is that boring under your back cut, only removes material you need to lift the tree, causing you to use more wedge, 3 cuts is equal to about one wedge in thickness, so now you have used three wedges where 2 could have done it, and probably broke one in the process. but since you can't drive them deep enough, now you have to add a forth... and where exactly is that going to go? ya just going to bore under those three wedges and stuff another one in there? I think not, in fact I know yer not cause I understand physics. meanwhile said tree is crippled hanging on to whatever hold wood is left, just waiting for the next strong breeze to send it wherever it wants to go.

To sum up, once you have the back cut started is the most dangerous time in falling timber, it can and will go at any time, there are no hard and fast rules that say 2" of hold wood is going to hold this 12000 pound stick in the air while I **** about whittling on the stump. So yes there is a chance that a plastic wedge will pop out, that is why you use at least 2 stacks, but at least you get the tree leaning the right direction as quickly as possible. In my book, and considering the type of logging I do is far more important then making sure some ass nine rule made up by some pencil pusher in an office is followed.

Also if you can't judge the lean of a tree be it crown weight, lean, limb, head, belly, whatever and you've been cutting for more then 3 weeks, hang it up before you get killed.


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## Skeans (Jan 17, 2016)

And how are you suppose to do something like that with almost ground level stumps or on steep ground standing on spring boards?

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## Bwildered (Jan 17, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Because the government says makes it right?
> 
> Yes wedge on wedge has more likely hood to pop out, but it is manageable, both when backed up, and by using just a touch of dirt between wedges, simple easy method that doesn't waste time under a crippled back leaner.
> 
> ...


Yes those pesky governments, they like to bring in all sorts of silly rules for no reason, like having speed limits, aviation rules, building regulations, etc, etc etc, all to save a few lives, then they have the right to call you up to go & fight for your country so you can be killed on their terms, so nothing really makes sense.
At the bottom of the page there are other threads covering a lot of what has been said, for & against & the situations of where the method is best used.
Ta


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2016)

Speed limits, make money, lots of money

Aviation rules so pilots can land in an orderly fashion and the planes don't fall out of the sky, and to make money

Building regulations are largely to give building inspectors a job, and engineers something to help pay off college. Oh and to make money

Wars make even more money, but not for the gubamint, for the folks that make bombs so the people that work for them can pay taxes, blow speed limits, crash airplanes, get building permits, and ultimately give everything back to the government so they can pay for the bombs they dropped.

Bureaucracy is bad, regulating how folks work is bureaucratic tyranny, its pointless and only pisses people off. 

You still haven't answered how it makes things safer.


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## Bwildered (Jan 17, 2016)

Well when I'm flying, driving or sitting in my house the last thing I'm worried about is whether the govt is making money, my family's safety comes well before that. One of civilisations oldest laws was to protect human life, it was made around 4,000 years ago by a King of Babylon to stop dodgy builders killing people in dodgy buildings that collapsed for no good reason, the penalty was death I believe & compensation to relatives, the King didn't make any money out of it. Anarchists & some daring entrepreneurs don't like laws & rules, so it's survival of the most ruthless in the end if it's open slather.
I thought I had answered the question fairly fully, but I'm sure I've missed a few minor points
Ta


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2016)

no you quoted other people then conveniently dodged the question. 

So I ask again exactly how is it safer?


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 17, 2016)

Matt, give it up bro. havn't you figured out what kind of fellow your arguing with yet?


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2016)

Yeah, just hoping that maybe he'll figure out what kind of fellow he is. A little more and I'll put him in a camp of my own.


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## CUCV (Jan 17, 2016)

Are they making you use the technique on every tree? That seems pretty ridiculous if they are...

I use the technique on trees with a heavy back lean and it works well. Usually the tree would also have a rope in it with a 5:1 on the other end.

The wood between wedges does break out and lift. I can't say that I have used it on a tree over 36" in diameter since I haven't cut anything bigger than that in a few years but it does work well on smaller trees. Wedge stacking on smaller diameter trees can be challenging with a heavy back lean and this is a great way to do it.


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## Skeans (Jan 17, 2016)

Heavy back leaners I'd be more tempted to start the back cut like you would for a jack then pound the wedges up tight and finally put the face in much easier less work and time.

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## HuskStihl (Jan 17, 2016)

This is prolly a no-no, but on little back leaners I put in the back cut, bore a wedge depth/width pocket in the center of the back, start a wedge, put in an open face leaving generous holding wood, and wedge it over. Let's me get full wedge height without bottoming out


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## northmanlogging (Jan 17, 2016)

boring the center out you mean, cause on the little guys that works pretty good.


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## 137cc (Jan 17, 2016)

CUCV said:


> Are they making you use the technique on every tree? That seems pretty ridiculous if they are...
> 
> I use the technique on trees with a heavy back lean and it works well. Usually the tree would also have a rope in it with a 5:1 on the other end.
> 
> The wood between wedges does break out and lift. I can't say that I have used it on a tree over 36" in diameter since I haven't cut anything bigger than that in a few years but it does work well on smaller trees. Wedge stacking on smaller diameter trees can be challenging with a heavy back lean and this is a great way to do it.


Yep every tree, but hey nearly everything gol is ridiculous. Basically gol is an over-engineered way to fell small trees. 36" is average timber over here on the left coast. It's not that bore stacking wedges won't work, it just doesn't work very well. It takes a lot of extra force to break the wood between the vertical stacked bores. Why you would add extra resistance to a lifting wedge beyond retarded. 

Basically a rope shouldn't be an excuse for garbage methods.


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## Skeans (Jan 17, 2016)

137cc said:


> Yep every tree, but hey nearly everything gol is ridiculous. Basically gol is an over-engineered way to fell small trees. 36" is average timber over here on the left coast. It's not that bore stacking wedges won't work, it just doesn't work very well. It takes a lot of extra force to break the wood between the vertical stacked bores. Why you would add extra resistance to a lifting wedge beyond retarded.
> 
> Basically a rope shouldn't be an excuse for garbage methods.


That and the height of timber over here why make any harder then it needs to be, those guys have never beat over a 200 ft tree with no wind let alone some wind.

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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2016)

Bwildered you throw the word wedges around pretty loosely. You could draw a parallel between wedges and man. Neither are created equally. Some packin' 5's, some 18's . Some are 5's some are 18's
Some are thick, some are thin
Some always work some work a little, some never worked.
They are as alike as murders and Saints man.

We have some unfinished biz...remember
You said you could probably show a pay slip or invoice of such back as far as my birth year.

Just a friendly reminder

Just because you have been living a while dosen't make you a Pørn star please don't forget...lol

Cheers


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2016)

HuskStihl said:


> This is prolly a no-no, but on little back leaners I put in the back cut, bore a wedge depth/width pocket in the center of the back, start a wedge, put in an open face leaving generous holding wood, and wedge it over. Let's me get full wedge height without bottoming out


Just gotta watch yer corners. It easy to cut to much on small ones, then wedge them sideways off the stump.


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## bitzer (Jan 18, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Yeah, just hoping that maybe he'll figure out what kind of fellow he is. A little more and I'll put him in a camp of my own.


You won't get any answers or satisfaction out of him. He doesn't have any. This is the same route he took during the dutchman debate. The govt didn't like that either. The best you can do is string him along because his arguements become more and more transparent. 

Hey at the very least we've really fleshed out why this technique sucks and explained better techniques. We need guys like him to come in here every so often to keep things going. Otherwise we pretty much know where we stand so conversations may not ever get this far. For the average joe reading this thread now, he can make an educated guess on what technique is more sound.


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## Gologit (Jan 18, 2016)

137cc said:


> Basically a rope shouldn't be an excuse for garbage methods.



Exactly right. I've seen a lot of different wedging techniques over the years but the one you posted is by far the strangest.
I don't have a closed mind and I'm always up for learning new and better techniques but I also recognize that most of the traditional methods are still in use for a darn good reason...they work. 
And on Bwildered's advice...If there are any of the newer guys reading this thread, please don't listen to anything the man has to say. He's just noise without knowledge.


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## Bwildered (Jan 18, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Exactly right. I've seen a lot of different wedging techniques over the years but the one you posted is by far the strangest.
> I don't have a closed mind and I'm always up for learning new and better techniques but I also recognize that most of the traditional methods are still in use for a darn good reason...they work.
> And on Bwildered's advice...If there are any of the newer guys reading this thread, please don't listen to anything the man has to say. He's just noise without knowledge.


It's you hasbeens that have neverbeen that are handing out the advice, im just saying there is no good reason not to use the method where its recommended. Your egos won't let you see the difference. Just got to move & change with the times, which is hard for some & impossible for others. If you went logging in Brazil they would laugh us all out of town for wearing boots, a hard hat & hearing protection.
Thansk


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## northmanlogging (Jan 19, 2016)

And now yer name calling...

Still waiting


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2016)

I've yet to see a use for this personally

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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> And now yer name calling...
> 
> Still waiting


And your insulting, so if you don't want it don't start it.


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## Gologit (Jan 19, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> It's you hasbeens that have neverbeen that are handing out the advice, im just saying there is no good reason not to use the method where its recommended. Your egos won't let you see the difference. Just got to move & change with the times, which is hard for some & impossible for others. If you went logging in Brazil they would laugh us all out of town for wearing boots, a hard hat & hearing protection.
> Thansk



Why not come on out to my part of the country and demonstrate some of your ideas? I can get you onto a real logging job for a day or two and you can show some of the production fallers your technique.
We'll take video. Lots of video. I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves. 
Bring your own boots and PPE. We can provide you with a saw and the rest of the tools.


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Why not come on out to my part of the country and demonstrate some of your ideas? I can get you onto a real logging job for a day or two and you can show some of the production fallers your technique.
> We'll take video. Lots of video. I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves.
> Bring your own boots and PPE. We can provide you with a saw and the rest of the tools.


Might lose a saw and lots of wedges in the process is the bad part.

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## Gologit (Jan 19, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Might lose a saw and lots of wedges in the process is the bad part.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



Ah, I doubt if he has the balls to do it. He probably wouldn't get out of the pickup when he saw the job. It's burn salvage, cow-face ground, and just generally a tough show all the way around.
Besides, as thin skinned as he is, when the guys heard him and watched him and started making fun of him he'd probably go into a snit and sulk until we got him back to town. Darn shame, though. I like to see the crew have something to laugh about now and then.
I'm out of here. See you guys tomorrow.


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Ah, I doubt if he has the balls to do it. He probably wouldn't get out of the pickup when he saw the job. It's burn salvage, cow-face ground, and just generally a tough show all the way around.
> Besides, as thin skinned as he is, when the guys heard him and watched him and started making fun of him he'd probably go into a snit and sulk until we got him back to town. Darn shame, though. I like to see the crew have something to laugh about now and then.


It's always fun having a green horn from town. I hate burn and blow down salvage but it has to be done.

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## madhatte (Jan 19, 2016)

Gologit said:


> I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves.



I first read the word "game" as "name" and immediately came to some conclusions... then I re-read it. Ah, well. Guess I won't be using my navy vocabulary today.


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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Why not come on out to my part of the country and demonstrate some of your ideas? I can get you onto a real logging job for a day or two and you can show some of the production fallers your technique.
> We'll take video. Lots of video. I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves.
> Bring your own boots and PPE. We can provide you with a saw and the rest of the tools.


They're not my ideas by the way & I would jump at the chance to do that, perhaps you could come & run my business of marketing & selling my sawn timber, learn to run my sawmill to cut tensioned HWD, cut, snig & log my land, plus cut the salvage up, split & deliver firewood solo while while I'm away, I even have PPE for you that you can keep as a souvenir, I hope you like lawyer vines, steep slippery country, leeches, ticks, bullants, deadly snakes & spiders, heat, humidity & torrential rain on a good day. I hope you're fit & not a smoker because ill leave you with an 090 with a 30" bar & that could kill you just trying to wield it all day.
I'm just a hasbeen that's stillbeing.
Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Might lose a saw and lots of wedges in the process is the bad part.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


It sounds like your talking from experience, not every body has been self taught & learned the hard dangerous way by being given a saw & told to "go n cuttem down"


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> It sounds like your talking from experience, not every body has been self taught & learned the hard dangerous way by being given a saw & told to "go n cuttem down"


I've never lost a saw or lost a tree over backwards I was taught to cut long poles if you loose one of them that's big dollars, till you cut with jacks daily or come play in the big long wood you have no where to talk.

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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

Skeans said:


> I've never lost a saw or lost a tree over backwards I was taught to cut long poles if you loose one of them that's big dollars, till you cut with jacks daily or come play in the big long wood you have no where to talk.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Well we're equal on that front, the only thing I might bust is some expensive trees by not having local knowledge of how they react when they hit the deck. Not many here can talk then if that's your criteria for knowing something about the game.
Thanski


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## northmanlogging (Jan 19, 2016)

who in their right mind still uses an 090 for production anyway? Also I'm pretty sure Bob started cutting before the 090 was introduced, back when Mc Cullach, and Homelight where the top dogs.

Before you jump to conclusions, I own one, it stays in the shed where it belongs. A 660 will out cut it daily and an 880 is cheaper to fix, not to mention faster and lighter.

Pretty much all timber will bust to Hel if you don't know what your doing, its not about what the tree can handle, its about not hitting stumps, boulder, knolls, cliffs, crummys or anything else that cause it to flex abruptly. I don't care if its tropical rain forest or high plains pine.

Still waiting.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2016)

bewildered, fyi most the guys your talking to have been in the woods 25+ years. some may have less years but are in the woods daily. pretty sure there are no hasbeens or newbies here. also there are guys here that cut every thing from coastal red wood to eastern hard wood. so the experience here is massive, you will have a hell of a time bull chitting your way out of absurd methods.


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## Skeans (Jan 19, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> who in their right mind still uses an 090 for production anyway? Also I'm pretty sure Bob started cutting before the 090 was introduced, back when Mc Cullach, and Homelight where the top dogs.
> 
> Before you jump to conclusions, I own one, it stays in the shed where it belongs. A 660 will out cut it daily and an 880 is cheaper to fix, not to mention faster and lighter.
> 
> ...


Another thing is a 090 is slow with a short bar they don't shine till 5 foot bars or longer imo and even then they could use a rim sprocket with a larger rim. Exactly the with the wood but I'd still love to see him try it in our tall wood with a gust come up all of a sudden.

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## chucker (Jan 19, 2016)

it's more like deja-vu all over again or february 2nd "groundhog's day" all over again with this clowns story, never ending.....


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## madhatte (Jan 19, 2016)

We get one of these every now and then. It's a welcome change from all the getting along we usually do around here.


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## Slingblade (Jan 19, 2016)

I'ma thinking I'll start by being the *first one to say what I know about "Wedge Stacking" wouldn't fill a thimble*...But politics, well thats a whole different matter...In North America, mind numbing government regs are managing to cripple the forest industry on all fronts...From expensive and time consuming safety courses that our loggers and fallers must PAY FOR AND PASS, to rudimentary rules that cost companies thousands to implement and maintain, it's pretty obvious the bulk of that expense ends up falling directly on the working man's back!...No one wants to minimize or disregard safety, especially the guy in the trenches, but when you have a chit load of NON ELECTED officials and a bunch of spoiled environmentalists with misplaced values making up the rules you have to step back and question BOTH necessity and motive...When it comes to safety, I'll put my money on the person with years of "hands on" experience...There's a BIG PICTURE to consider and anyone who can't or won't answer a simple question is probably only seeing a very small part of that picture...


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## 137cc (Jan 19, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> im just saying there is no good reason not to use the method where its recommended



Well there are plenty of "good" reasons to never use this garbage method. This method adds unecessary danger, so safety would be the first obvious reason. We actually care about our safety, that's why we don't pound wedges this way.


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## Gologit (Jan 19, 2016)

chucker said:


> it's more like deja-vu all over again or february 2nd "groundhog's day" all over again with this clowns story, never ending.....



You guys go ahead and argue with him. I'm putting him on IGNORE. Enough is enough.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 19, 2016)

137cc said:


> Well there are plenty of "good" reasons to never use this garbage method. This method adds unecessary danger, so safety would be the first obvious reason. We actually care about our safety, that's why we don't pound wedges this way.


well yeah.........i mean we all are still here breathing and talking about this after alot of years doing this work. so obviously we don't know what we are doing 

i think Bob has the right idea here.
137, sorry you have this BS to deal with on the job.


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## Sagetown (Jan 19, 2016)

Gologit said:


> You guys go ahead and argue with him. I'm putting him on IGNORE. Enough is enough.


 Life's too short ain't it.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 19, 2016)

I'll see what he has to say about 090's then consider one of the best ignore options on the inter web.


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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

137cc said:


> Well there are plenty of "good" reasons to never use this garbage method. This method adds unecessary danger, so safety would be the first obvious reason. We actually care about our safety, that's why we don't pound wedges this way.


After aftre all this you still haven't asked your trainers why this method is better or safer, you're just wingeing to your like minded group with similar attitudes to different methods, man or girl up & tell them what your really think about their methods or tell them to shove their job if you really think it's that dangerous or demeaning to you. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one here that's done that!
Thanski


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## Bwildered (Jan 19, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I'll see what he has to say about 090's then consider one of the best ignore options on the inter web.


I threw that in there seeing he liked the older methods & thought he'd be happy using an older saw.
Thansk


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## northmanlogging (Jan 19, 2016)

and yer done, please stay safe, and try not to get killed.


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## madhatte (Jan 19, 2016)

Yeah, an 090 is a particularly unpleasant machine to run. The A/V models are only slightly less so. Meanwhile, I'll be using the methods taught to me not by OSHA inspectors or high-dollar contract trainers but by fireline and timber fallers who know what works and what doesn't because they have already tried everything and don't have time to fart around. I'll do my part by passing this knowledge on to my crews. When I learn a new trick that works, I'll pass that on too. I won't pass on to my crews the flaky stuff that is a waste of time.


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## JRoland (Jan 19, 2016)

I'm on that same job as the original poster. I hadn't heard of GOL before reading this thread either. We were shown this method the other day as well, while dealing with a big pine we were working on. I bored in the length of the wedge and it split out fairly easily while putting the wedge in to give the desired lift. We so far haven't had to really pound wedges, due to being able to pull the trees/ spars using our mechanical advantage ( every tree on the project over ten feet tall has to have a pull line in it at least 2/3 of the way up).
I also never knew the difference between felling wedges and bucking wedges, and it did make sense to me / us that since we did not have felling wedges on our crew it would make it less likely to spit the wedge out from the compartment we had created rather than plastic on plastic. 
Some of the stuff I'm seeing is things I already knew about from seeing it in action, but just didn't have the terminology of it. Some of the techniques are new concepts to me though, it is definitely different from any job I've been on.
I figured why not bore in for the wedges, I'm not scared to bore cut ( we are bore cutting every tree) and we are not in a hurry to get trucks loaded / wood in the landing....


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## bitzer (Jan 20, 2016)

JRoland said:


> I'm on that same job as the original poster. I hadn't heard of GOL before reading this thread either. We were shown this method the other day as well, while dealing with a big pine we were working on. I bored in the length of the wedge and it split out fairly easily while putting the wedge in to give the desired lift. We so far haven't had to really pound wedges, due to being able to pull the trees/ spars using our mechanical advantage ( every tree on the project over ten feet tall has to have a pull line in it at least 2/3 of the way up).
> I also never knew the difference between felling wedges and bucking wedges, and it did make sense to me / us that since we did not have felling wedges on our crew it would make it less likely to spit the wedge out from the compartment we had created rather than plastic on plastic.
> Some of the stuff I'm seeing is things I already knew about from seeing it in action, but just didn't have the terminology of it. Some of the techniques are new concepts to me though, it is definitely different from any job I've been on.
> I figured why not bore in for the wedges, I'm not scared to bore cut ( we are bore cutting every tree) and we are not in a hurry to get trucks loaded / wood in the landing....



Is your background in tree service?


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## bitzer (Jan 20, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> After aftre all this you still haven't asked your trainers why this method is better or safer, you're just wingeing to your like minded group with similar attitudes to different methods, man or girl up & tell them what your really think about their methods or tell them to shove their job if you really think it's that dangerous or demeaning to you. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one here that's done that!
> Thanski



Why is it better or safer? Wedges spitting out of the cut isn't it. I'm going to call you Reggie from now on cuz you won't give your name.


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## chucker (Jan 20, 2016)

?? for what it's worth, I couldn't imagine having to rope a tree 11' tall(if you will pardon the miss use of " ' " as in stick high timber) or wedging a bush that my lawn mower can run over and chip out?? what a waste of time and gear to carry along. yet alone roping a 11' bush/brush 2/3rds up with a giant top of ? 2"..... it must be a horrible site! lol


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2016)

JRoland said:


> I'm on that same job as the original poster. I hadn't heard of GOL before reading this thread either. We were shown this method the other day as well, while dealing with a big pine we were working on. I bored in the length of the wedge and it split out fairly easily while putting the wedge in to give the desired lift. We so far haven't had to really pound wedges, due to being able to pull the trees/ spars using our mechanical advantage ( every tree on the project over ten feet tall has to have a pull line in it at least 2/3 of the way up).
> I also never knew the difference between felling wedges and bucking wedges, and it did make sense to me / us that since we did not have felling wedges on our crew it would make it less likely to spit the wedge out from the compartment we had created rather than plastic on plastic.
> Some of the stuff I'm seeing is things I already knew about from seeing it in action, but just didn't have the terminology of it. Some of the techniques are new concepts to me though, it is definitely different from any job I've been on.
> I figured why not bore in for the wedges, I'm not scared to bore cut ( we are bore cutting every tree) and we are not in a hurry to get trucks loaded / wood in the landing....



Stupid question... what is the difference between felling and bucking wedges?

Cause I taint never heard of a bucking wedge, splitting wedge yes, other wise a wedge is a wedge, Felling wedges are plastic/aluminium/magnesium, splitting wedges are steel. Not sure why a guy would need bucking specific wedges.

Honestly it sounds like you folks are being lead by the blind and ignorant.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 20, 2016)

Skeans said:


> I've never lost a saw or lost a tree over backwards I was taught to cut long poles if you loose one of them that's big dollars, till you cut with jacks daily or come play in the big long wood you have no where to talk.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


 but a **** of a lot sideways. You have never lost a tree? That's pretty chuncky soup to swallow.
Never cut a cedar with slight weight to the compression side and it had a small cats face on tension side you failed to check. I Never crushed a saw that I didn't want to either but I should have crushed about 10. Honestly, when was the last time you packed a jack around? It's not a daily basis thing. I have never seen them cut more that snipper wood on Axe man. A lot of second growth Fir there.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 20, 2016)

haxe men isn't exactly a good representation of PNW logging...

Granted a lot of what gets cut now is fairly small, especially compared to the BC and Alaskan coast stuff, but you can thank you're local evironmental knuts for that. Although if the knuts hadn't of stopped it Warshington state wouldn't likely have any old growth left outside of national parks or wilderness areas.

What you don't see on Haxe men is the nice DNR cuts and the occasional forest service cut, cause I'm pretty sure as soon as the foresters found out they where shooting an episode there would be some kind of fire danger shut down or the roads would be too wet to haul...


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Stupid question... what is the difference between felling and bucking wedges?
> 
> Cause I taint never heard of a bucking wedge, splitting wedge yes, other wise a wedge is a wedge, Felling wedges are plastic/aluminium/magnesium, splitting wedges are steel. Not sure why a guy would need bucking specific wedges.
> 
> Honestly it sounds like you folks are being lead by the blind and ignorant.








Figure 40--A bucking wedge being used as a hanging wedge.
The wedge kept the cut from opening too quickly and splitting the log,
and also stopped the log from rolling on the bucker when the cut was finished.
-- _Now You're Logging, by Bus Griffiths, 
with permission of Harbour _
*Bucking Wedges*
Wedges used to reduce bind or split wood are double tapered, meaning that each of the broad faces tapers equally from the center. When such wedges are driven, wood moves away from both tapered sides equally.

Double-taper wedges are preferred for bucking, while single-taper wedges are used for felling. Both types of wedges keep the saw kerf from closing. However, the single-taper wedge used for felling performs a lifting function, while the double-taper wedge used for bucking pries the log apart. Crosscut saw bucking wedges are made of metal and are shorter than felling wedges. They are wider at the bottom and have more of a fan shape than a felling wedge (figure 40).

Just because you don't know about it or ever seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, a bit like your whole argument so far.
Thanski


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Why is it better or safer? Wedges spitting out of the cut isn't it. I'm going to call you Reggie from now on cuz you won't give your name.


You can call me whatever you like, just don't ever call me late for dinner.
Thanski Reg


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2016)

BW, although you admit to being a one wedge guy, you chose to defend this method and thus you have been asked several times why this method is better or safer. You just keep dancing. If you want your opinion respected you would answer the question even if you are simply theorizing or speculating. Most everyone here can see pros and cons to this method. I dare say that most believe the cons far out weigh the pros. If you know different then state your case. 

Many here live off production and some have plenty of fire salvage experience. It is only natural for them to be highly skeptical of any method promoted by a group that requires roping any fire damaged tree over 10'. If a tree is properly roped to be pulled, why would one stack wedges? 

Not every one here is anti-government or anti-safety, nonetheless it doesn't take any "anti" bent to see that many risks are overblown by our government and exploited by folks chasing a dollar. On the surface this certainly appears to be the case here.

Ron


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2016)

JRoland said:


> I'm on that same job as the original poster. I hadn't heard of GOL before reading this thread either. We were shown this method the other day as well, while dealing with a big pine we were working on. I bored in the length of the wedge and it split out fairly easily while putting the wedge in to give the desired lift. We so far haven't had to really pound wedges, due to being able to pull the trees/ spars using our mechanical advantage ( every tree on the project over ten feet tall has to have a pull line in it at least 2/3 of the way up).
> I also never knew the difference between felling wedges and bucking wedges, and it did make sense to me / us that since we did not have felling wedges on our crew it would make it less likely to spit the wedge out from the compartment we had created rather than plastic on plastic.
> Some of the stuff I'm seeing is things I already knew about from seeing it in action, but just didn't have the terminology of it. Some of the techniques are new concepts to me though, it is definitely different from any job I've been on.
> I figured why not bore in for the wedges, I'm not scared to bore cut ( we are bore cutting every tree) and we are not in a hurry to get trucks loaded / wood in the landing....



Please explain the difference as told to you between a falling wedge and a bucking wedge. Is it simply single taper versus double taper? 

Thanks, 

Ron


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

rwoods said:


> BW, although you admit to being a one wedge guy, you chose to defend this method and thus you have been asked several times why this method is better or safer. You just keep dancing. If you want your opinion respected you would answer the question even if you are simply theorizing or speculating. Most everyone here can see pros and cons to this method. I dare say that most believe the cons far out weigh the pros. If you know different then state your case.
> 
> Many here live off production and some have plenty of fire salvage experience. It is only natural for them to be highly skeptical of any method promoted by a group that requires roping any fire damaged tree over 10'. If a tree is properly roped to be pulled, why would one stack wedges?
> 
> ...


I have put forward several times the reasons why I think it has an advantage safety wise, i also noted the disadvantages, as those disadvantages weren't safety issues then it passes the comonsense test, as far as the broader GOL techniques I'm not commenting on them, with the roping of the trees there maybe other factors involved like the assets of power lines that must be protected & there could be possibility of old burnt crap pine trees having rot in them. Somewhere in the management process a safety risk analysis has been done & a course of action decided, management seems to have skipped the worker input & feedback part which a essential part of the process.
I've worked on both sides of the fence so maybe I have a different understanding & outlook of how industrial safety operates with statistics, individual skills are not normally considered because of the broad nature of the aims to reduce workplace accidents & making exceptions to the rules puts the managers at risk of litigation if something goes wrong.
Tanks


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## windthrown (Jan 20, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> You have never lost a tree? That's pretty chuncky soup to swallow.



No shirt. Old saying here is that if you have not had a tree spin 180 degrees and fall square on your saw, you are not a faller. In my limited experience, they hang. They spin. They barber. They break the hinge and rock back over the stump. They sit back on the back cut and pinch the bar. They gush water. They shatter. They flip back and land 180 degrees from where you intended. They fall forward but not where they were intended. The wind kicks them off course. The lean was different than eyed and they roll. Or in some cases, they just sit there and do nothing. Or you do a dutchman, or cut a bad face or back cut. On a good day all the trees fall as or near expected. Every day is not a good day though.


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## madhatte (Jan 20, 2016)

Bwildered said:


>








OK, yes, that was how it was done in the crosscut days. Also, yes, the wedge I have pictured above is more commonly used in bucking applications than in falling ones, but the fact is that if you're any good at bucking, you will only use a wedge to get yourself out of trouble when you have mis-read a bind. Thus, in the modern vernacular, there is no such thing as a "bucking" wedge.


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## chucker (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> No shirt. Old saying here is that if you have not had a tree spin 180 degrees and fall square on your saw, you are not a faller. In my limited experience, they hang. They spin. They barber. They break the hinge and rock back over the stump. They sit back on the back cut and pinch the bar. They gush water. They shatter. They flip back and land 180 degrees from where you intended. They fall forward but not where they were not intended. The wind kicks them off course. The lean was different than eyed and they roll. Or in some cases, they just sit there and do nothing. Or you do a dutchman, or cut a bad face or back cut. On a good day all the trees fall as or near expected. Every day is not a good day though.


that is plain truth to a fact! you "SIR" are a truthful tree slayer!


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

windthrown said:


> No shirt. Old saying here is that if you have not had a tree spin 180 degrees and fall square on your saw, you are not a faller. In my limited experience, they hang. They spin. They barber. They break the hinge and rock back over the stump. They sit back on the back cut and pinch the bar. They gush water. They shatter. They flip back and land 180 degrees from where you intended. They fall forward but not where they were not intended. The wind kicks them off course. The lean was different than eyed and they roll. Or in some cases, they just sit there and do nothing. Or you do a dutchman, or cut a bad face or back cut. On a good day all the trees fall as or near expected. Every day is not a good day though.


Any day that you make it to the end of & you still have all your bits in working order is a good day.
Ta


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2016)

BW,

Thanks for responding. To save others time, I have highlighted below your responses that explain your reasoning. Are there any other reasons you would add to support your conclusion that this method is safer? Instead of us just theorizing, it would be good if the matters in italics were addressed by the actual proponents, or their pupils.

Ron



Bwildered said:


> It maybe rubbish, but *each wedge has the advantage of being in timber & has less chance of flying out like plastic on dirty plastic, if a wedge does shoot out of the back cut then there is a higher chance of the hinge failing when it sits back down again*, _they must give reasons though of why this method is preferred & better than any other, or its just a meaningless way of training._
> Tanski





Bwildered said:


> Rather than just knocking the method I'm just looking at the pluses & minuses of it, *the pluses are you need to carry & use less wedges, they are less likely to fly out, they can't be driven skewif because they're captivated in a slot, there is less chance of the tree sitting back down & breaking the hinge.
> The minuses are you have to do another couple of bore cuts of adequate depth* that an experienced faller should be capable of doing repeatedly, *you have to be able to gauge how much lift is needed before starting as another bore cut once loaded is not an option*, *training experienced fellers in a different method*.
> Fanks





Bwildered said:


> I'm only going off the posted pictures & explainations of *backing up doubled up wedges which means an equal amount in reserve to stop the tree sitting back & possibly breaking the hinge. Plastic wedges aren't much good for lifting anything heavy anyway & with our HWDs they are as useless* as an ashtray on a motorbike, that method with a single wedge is the recommended way to get small poles down against the lean. So far on the surface I'm seeing more positives than negatives.
> Ta





Bwildered said:


> I'm not disputing plastic wedges don't lift, they just don't lift much before they start to do everything but lift. *I think the method with wedges stacked in bore cuts gets the most out of the poor little things safer, the negatives some have put up are a bit limp, like having to do bore cuts to a depth greater than the length of a wedge*, if you're a competent Faller & that's an unsafe activity you're in the wrong game. Boring out the centre of the hinge isn't an unsafe practice or method either. Having to cut out the wedges after is a mystery as well, as a hit with the back of an axe on top of the mortise cuts will break them out easily, all I'm seeing is resistance to another method without any reasonable grounds.
> Stanks





Bwildered said:


> In regards to breaking out the mortised timber of bore cut, here's another little experiment you can do, pop a dangerous deep bore cut 1/2" from the top of a stump if you can, place a wedge into it & hit it with 20 oz claw hammer, you will be able to easily break out the timber above the wedge with a couple of half hearted taps with the hammer, so in the grand scheme of things when you belt a wedge in with a 4 lb axe it's nothing & not going to make wedging a tree any harder.
> Some mongrel days I might wedge 50% of the trees I fall & I only carry one alloy wedge, anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go. I don't use plastic wedges in the bush as they are less than useless, but have found them really handy when I hang a solid core door getting it to the right height as they are nice & slippery.
> Ta





Bwildered said:


> What's garbage about it? It's safer. So what if another wedge has to be used to get the same amount of lift as two back to back.
> Wrong country bro.
> Thangst





Bwildered said:


> If you had taken your time to read what I said, it's already been said & you don't have to go too far back to read it either. _The reasons for why this method has been pushed by the trainers hasn't yet been explained_, but I'd be saying that it is a safety aspect, which is front & foremost these days & the sacrifice of a little time to achieve it is the price industry has to pay to reduce accidents, workers comp payments & industry deaths. Our logging industry 30 years ago was full of hillbilly cutters killing themselves hand over fist, then they gradually changed the industrial laws, so that now if anybody is negligent in their duty of care they can be sued for millions in a common law court for negligence, that goes from the land owner up the chain to the owners of the mill, that's why they implement training programs to cover their arses, but they still want the job done cheaper every year which is a total contradiction & the only way around to make money is mechanisation, or the people doing the job will have to take shortcuts, from what I can see some are defending the later.
> But back to the question, *it's safer because the wedge has less chance of bouncing or skewing out of where it's being driven into, plastic on plastic only has 1/2 the resistance of bouncing out of the cut as one with timber friction on each face & the incline of the slope is double that of a single wedge which isn't working in the favour of stopping a wedge bouncing out. If wedges bounce out there is more chance of the hinge breaking when the tree sits back down with force, which leads to a Faller being caught by a tree going the wrong way with no escape route, not all fallers may back up their doubled up wedges to prevent this happening or had a few close calls to learn what to do from a near miss.* Statistically 1 in 2 million minor incidents will cause a fatality in the building industry, forestry is probably twice as dangerous as that at least.
> Thansk


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

madhatte said:


> OK, yes, that was how it was done in the crosscut days. Also, yes, the wedge I have pictured above is more commonly used in bucking applications than in falling ones, but the fact is that if you're any good at bucking, you will only use a wedge to get yourself out of trouble when you have mis-read a bind. Thus, in the modern vernacular, there is no such thing as a "bucking" wedge.


I didn't know there was a difference either, but there is.
Ta


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## Bwildered (Jan 20, 2016)

rwoods said:


> BW,
> 
> Thanks for responding. To save others time, I have highlighted below your responses that explain your reasoning. Are there any other reasons you would add to support your conclusion that this method is safer? Instead of us just theorizing, it would be good if the matters in italics were addressed by the actual proponents, or their pupils.
> 
> Ron


Thanks, hopefully that will save me from being accused of not giving any logical reasons, if it's not logical enough then we are operating on different levels or I have a hemispheric understanding gap.
Thansk


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## rwoods (Jan 20, 2016)

No problem, BW.

My opinion doesn't count for much due to inexperience but when I add up the pros and cons I reach a different conclusion. I get the side hold and the "traction" issues but it looks that you need at least three wedges and two bore cuts to do the job of two stacked wedges and as you noted you need to figure this out up front. For some reasons my figuring and the tree's tend to vary as often as you and I do.

I am done for the night as my computer locks up every time I open this thread. Using my phone tain't fun.

Ron


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## 1270d (Jan 20, 2016)

As an aside, I have found that putting some pine bark in between wedges worked well when temps are low. Like -20 f or lower. Wedges spit pretty easy then it seems, bark even helped when not stacking. Hard to find any dirt in the winter.


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## JRoland (Jan 20, 2016)

rwoods said:


> Please explain the difference as told to you between a falling wedge and a bucking wedge. Is it simply single taper versus double taper?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron



Felling wedges have barbs on them so they won't spit out.
Bucking wedges do not.
We hadn't really seen the barbed ones that often, but they sell them on treestuff. ( not sure if it's a good idea to post websites here... )
Jason


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## JRoland (Jan 21, 2016)

bitzer said:


> Is your background in tree service?



Logging, then line clearance, then forestry, then residential tree service. Among other things lol.


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## madhatte (Jan 21, 2016)

I got a case of barbed wedges shipped to me this fall. I haven't used any yet so I don't have an opinion on them. I'll get to them when the ones in my bag are done.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 21, 2016)

JRoland said:


> Felling wedges have barbs on them so they won't spit out.
> Bucking wedges do not.
> We hadn't really seen the barbed ones that often, but they sell them on treestuff. ( not sure if it's a good idea to post websites here... )
> Jason


 ??? I'm not so sure who's telling you this Jason. "Bucking wedges" Felling wedges, bucker pants, Faller Pants...bucking dogs, Falling dogs, ...figuratively speaking. Yes a stout double tapper wedge can be referred to as a bucking wedge. My minimal requirements is to carry three wedges, its part of the training, they also want you to have one double tapper.
To me its a beginner thing. As an experienced guy, I use rounder head corners such as K & H ( "red heads" ) single tapper to insert parallel with my chain. These wedges at 10" are a lifting wedge.

The purpose of the double tapper:
It's when working with minimal room
such as bucking OR felling with small diameter binds or lean.
They don't go very deep into the kerf before been affective. I believe K & H makes a 5.5" bucking or Falling wedge ??
What ever you like?? The doubles are steeper than heavy lifting wedges at about .... 8° I believe??


It serves the same purpose as a broken or cut wedge past the tapper for me.The tapper is basically redundant as I can open the kerf and get it to start if needed. Lets not forget wedges aren't to get you out of trouble but to keep you out of trouble.

I just use textured wedges like mentioned above that work in frozen wood better. Caulked/barbed wedges just add more work which causes fatigue and fatigue causes accidents. Much like the demonstration here. That's why it's not safe. You will notice you have to go a long way for the first barbs to set and most aren't good enough to set the barb..lol total joke.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 21, 2016)

the double taper 10" is nice cause it has a very narrow tip on it, hence I tend to buy a lot of em... they also have fatter ass one em so you get a little more lift then other 10" wedges I keep one on hand just for the event of a sit back or for when bucking goes wrong, other wise K+H red heads.

Also the double tapers are more prone to spitting out, regardless of whether you are stacking or not.


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## 137cc (Jan 21, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> Thanks, hopefully that will save me from being accused of not giving any logical reasons, if it's not logical enough then we are operating on different levels or I have a hemispheric understanding gap.
> Thansk



You still haven't given a logical reason, btw you saying it's safer doesn't count as a logical reason.


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## 137cc (Jan 21, 2016)

Bwildered said:


> After aftre all this you still haven't asked your trainers why this method is better or safer, you're just wingeing to your like minded group with similar attitudes to different methods, man or girl up & tell them what your really think about their methods or tell them to shove their job if you really think it's that dangerous or demeaning to you. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one here that's done that!
> Thanski



Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.


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## KiwiBro (Jan 21, 2016)

The moment one fails, they'll proclaim their roping instructions a fully justified success, unless it goes sideways. Too funny.


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## Bwildered (Jan 21, 2016)

137cc said:


> Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.


thats a terrible situation you're in, but you must be in their good books because they haven't given you the boot for asking questions so far, maybe a different tact could be for you to say to them why their technique is better, but give them some really far fetched ridiculous reason, any trainer would want to set you straight with their reasons & explainations.
Fanks


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## bitzer (Jan 21, 2016)

I don't use wedges for bucking. Occasionally to free a saw, but that's it on horizontal trees. Fatigue, time, and money are my reasons why this technique is foolish. Unnecessary work when perfectly good solutions are already available. Wood chips work well to keep wedges together if that's really the problem. One wedge should always be kept next to your stack. Simplicity. A stack of wedges usually only spits out when the tree moves forward as you are hitting them, taking the pressure off and allowing them to spit. Keeping your mind on what your doing (common sense) and not trying to be in a hurry is really the common denominator. If a guy can't hit a stack of wedges without them spitting out regularly, why would they want him to further compromise the tree and himself (fatigue) in the name of safety? Again simplicity. Three cuts, wedge, tip, done.


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## windthrown (Jan 21, 2016)

As for wedges, I use smooth surface orange ones of variable length. I like the smooth ones because they are stackable and they do not get stuck in the wood as much. They wear pretty fast though. I usually find a concrete or asphault road surface to grind off the plastic divots and to rough up the smooth surfaces a tad when they are new so they hold better. If needed I have also made them on the spot out of wood, ala my picture above. I also have some metal ones for splitting firewood with my 8 pound maul.

I also made some nice wedges out of white oak on my table saw for leveling my dubba wyde. Half the original leveling/foundation wedges here were rotted out when I bought this place. So I replaced the rotten ones a few years ago with the white oak ones. Two per speed block stack. I may make up a full set of leveling wedges and replace them all using black locust. That stuff does not rot out or warp at all.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 21, 2016)

you got white oak and black locust on that side?


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## JRoland (Jan 22, 2016)

137cc said:


> Like I said earlier, you get fired if you question them. And I need the money at the moment. Trust me I've asked the trainers about nearly everything they say. And everytime they will tell you it's safer without actually defending their technique.


The first day we were there, after the first two rules (1. No drugs and alcohol 2. Ropes in all trees over 10') the main safety point was that no steel core flip lines allowed on this job site. It was asked " what if the tree is outside the MAD ( minimum approach distance)". The answer was " no steel core flip lines allowed on this job." 
To the point that with all this talk of remove able offenses, etc. I went home and took my steel core flip line out of my job box and left it in the garage.
Fast forward to this mornings safety meeting, and the trainer/safety officer asks when can we use a steel core flip line? 
We all chime in "never on this job site!"
Then they proceed to say that steel core is ok, if the tree or any portion of the tree is not in the MAD.
Then it gets repeated in Spanish, then we head out to work.

I'm along the lines of what 137cc says though, it's good money and I'm down to do whatever....2 days of rain coming then 5 days of sunshine!


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

Black locust was planted by some of the pioneers and grows sorta wild up this way, not real common, and not a marketable timber. Pretty much the only chance I get to cut em for arboristy stuff, and I try to avoid most of that these days... try...

Black oak or gerry oaks are more common farther south down by Olympia and points farther south, the closer you get to oregon the bigger and healthier they get. Maybe some white oak too? not sure there.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

JRoland said:


> The first day we were there, after the first two rules (1. No drugs and alcohol 2. Ropes in all trees over 10') the main safety point was that no steel core flip lines allowed on this job site. It was asked " what if the tree is outside the MAD ( minimum approach distance)". The answer was " no steel core flip lines allowed on this job."
> To the point that with all this talk of remove able offenses, etc. I went home and took my steel core flip line out of my job box and left it in the garage.
> Fast forward to this mornings safety meeting, and the trainer/safety officer asks when can we use a steel core flip line?
> We all chime in "never on this job site!"
> ...




Sounds like a fun crew to work for... As much as I think what they are doing is stupid they is the boss and the boss signs the checks. 

I get the no steel core thing around power lines. Electricity is all fine and good until someone lets the smoke out of the lines... then things get kinda twitchy.


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## JRoland (Jan 22, 2016)

Also, thinking of it, as many different personalities and egos as there are in tree work this job would be nuts with as many people as are there if they DIDN'T have a whole grip of rules to play by and a way that they wanted all the trees to be cut. 
All the way down to how many wedges and what kind you need to have and how they want you to put them in.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

Yeah I get that, from the sounds of it there is a whole herd of folks working on it.

So having a few rules in place is generally a good thing, unless those rules are ass nine, then well they are just rules to be broken.

The part that I know would have gotten me tramped is the do it our way or else bit... wrong is wrong no amount of threatening or boasting changes it, when someone, anyone gets called on a ******** deal they should adult up and admit it rather then firing a dude over it... I've been fired several times... but I can still count to 20 before getting a scratch pad and pencil.


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## JRoland (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes there are a grip of people there.
For the talk I've heard of " removeable" offenses, the three crews that I've heard about getting sent down the road were pretty flagrant though.
Climbing a tree in the MAD with no rescue climber or rescue climber gear, falling a tree with no line in it with a humboldt cut, cutting the hinge and hitting the cross arm( heard that one almost shut the whole show down) and pulling a 130' tree using mechanical advantage, from 100' away. 

All reasonable reasons to not have those crews around in my opinion.


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## 137cc (Jan 22, 2016)

JRoland said:


> Yes there are a grip of people there.
> For the talk I've heard of " removeable" offenses, the three crews that I've heard about getting sent down the road were pretty flagrant though.
> Climbing a tree in the MAD with no rescue climber or rescue climber gear, falling a tree with no line in it with a humboldt cut, cutting the hinge and hitting the cross arm( heard that one almost shut the whole show down) and pulling a 130' tree using mechanical advantage, from 100' away.
> 
> All reasonable reasons to not have those crews around in my opinion.



Yeah all that happened, but plenty more have been let go that they haven't told you about. Don't bring up any pay issues, more than a few got let go complaining about how California labor laws were being broken. 

Also, they were signing people on as qualified fellers who showed up with a MS 250 and an 18" bar. When the NATS guys told us that a Humboldt was an unsafe cut, I realized that I had absolute retards for bosses. They also told me that my husky 390xp w/36" bar was too big of a saw, and that I shouldn't run it all day or I would get too tired.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

137cc said:


> Yeah all that happened, but plenty more have been let go that they haven't told you about. Don't bring up any pay issues, more than a few got let go complaining about how California labor laws were being broken.
> 
> Also, they were signing people on as qualified fellers who showed up with a MS 250 and an 18" bar. When the NATS guys told us that a Humboldt was an unsafe cut, I realized that I had absolute retards for bosses. They also told me that my husky 390xp w/36" bar was too big of a saw, and that I shouldn't run it all day or I would get too tired.



Well if labor laws are being broken, don't bother talking to the bosses just call L+I, labor laws are there for a reason.

As far as a massive Husky yeah I'd have to agree, all that time spent trying to start it would wear a guy out


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 22, 2016)

a 390 is to big??????wtf i guess if i showed up with a 660 full wrap and 36" i am what? over or under qualified? i didn't know you guys on the west coast had to hear this crap.....i'm used to it and just say y'all better get outta the way lol.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 22, 2016)

windthrown said:


> No no no no non no no... you are supposed to read the official OSHA approved book that came with the saw, in Spanish, and start the saw with the saw on the ground, your right foot jammed into the back handle, you bent over to start the saw so you are completely off balance on your left knee leaning into the bar, and start the saw from a very weak right arm and wrist position to promote injury. Never mind that the saws are designed by the engineers to be drop started, that the guys at all the saw shops around here drop start saws, and every logger, tree butcher and faller that I know drop starts their saws, except when an insurance or OSHA agent is within eyesight. Or if you are being certified, doing state or federal land work, or some company ********** from the main office is hanging around in the field observing things.



I like finding a nice stump or log to set the saw in, then use the right foot method, hurts my hands less, but I have a serious family history of arthritis, and inherited my mom's spidery hands not my dad's sausages. .....





northmanlogging said:


> Well you don't stack wedges without another wedge making room. And yes they sometimes do pop out, but not with any king of bone smashing force, maybe a bruise, but bruises we're used too. When they do pop out there is the other set of wedges already tightened up, they really only pop out when getting started.
> 
> Bore cutting is inherently dangerous, anytime you use the tip you risk a kick back, kick backs can maim or kill, so how the **** is that safer?
> 
> ...



The way I was show was:
1. Face cut
2. Bore cut to make the hinge.
3. Bore cut to make spots for each of the wedges
4. Insert and snug wedges (so when you cut the rest of the tree it is then on the hinge and wedges)
5. Cut the wood remaining between hinge creating bore cut, and your top wedge bore cut. Do this on both sides of the tree....
6. Drive wedges.




treeslayer2003 said:


> why is it, we always see these examples used on pecker poles? if its so great, why don't we see pics of it on big stems?





Amem, they always train on the easy ones and say "You'll have to use a different technique on leaners with a canopy." but neglect to demonstrate that for you, thus making a person have to get on forums like this, to Learn How It's Done.





northmanlogging said:


> SSD=Swedish Stump Dance, GOL is Game of Logging, game of logging is a course folks are sometimes "required" to take in parts of the US in order to fall trees, SSD is an insult to GOL, because GOL involves a great deal of dancing around a stump in circles from one side to the other, and was "invented" in Sweden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dont forget to mention the jack 





KiwiBro said:


> Get to it on a good sized back leaner and post plenty of pictures please.



So does any one have any pictures of any method for dealing with a back leaner...... that does NOT involve chain/cable/rope or Jacks?

Or is the method for dealing with a leaner to ..... stop being a gov. whipped lackey and use ropes/cable/jacks?




bitzer said:


> So removing more wood than necessary in the back cut of a tree is ok, thereby setting yourself up for more work and more material to add? Its time consuming and pointless. I wedge trees every day with no problem. If i know its going go need more than a double stack and it has to go one way then it gets jacked. The bore cuts and how deep they are is not the issue. Further compromising a tree when it is not necessary is futile. The tree will wedge MUCH harder when the wedges are in contact with wood instead of another wedge. They have to squeeze into that kerf you made until you drive them in far enough to break the wood away from the sides. Plastic wedges are meant for lifting trees, not breaking wood. I know ur aussie hardwoods are very soecial and can not be tamed, but here in the timid north we swing or wedge our trees with the help of gravity in a expediant manner. Don't worry, i will give you new reasons every day if you like. Whats your name by the way? I like to know who i'm debating with. I think we've arrived at that station eh mate?



The way I saw lectured/"taught" was facecut, straight bar width bore cut bring the hinge (half way on each side for "bigger" trees), then make the bore cuts in the back, then stick them 3 wedges (or more) in, then finish cutting "the trigger" the rest of the wood remaining between hinge and wedges.

And I agree SSD is a good name for it. Now, I WAS shown/taught this for working in residential areas, no clue if the training would have been different if the only things to crush were yourself and Bambi


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> I bore all the time, its just not something I use first, because its dangerous. Also the part you seem to be forgetting is that your talking to PRODUCTION cutters here, some more then others yes. Folks that hand cut professionally don't have time or energy to **** about with shitty methods and half baked ideas, we use what works and generally can see from 5 feet away what works and what does not.
> 
> Keep in mind the same ass hats that are demanding the OP use this method are also demanding and trying to force a rule change to require EVERYONE to rope a tree bigger then most Christmas/Yule trees. Its ****ing moronic peroid.



Yah, like I said about residential areas. I think the method described by the OP is not ..... rather Should not be applied production cutting.


Bwildered said:


> Some mongrel days I might wedge 50% of the trees I fall & I only carry one alloy wedge, anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go. I don't use plastic wedges in the bush as they are less than useless, but have found them really handy when I hang a solid core door getting it to the right height as they are nice & slippery.
> Ta



It's that whole:

"anything that needs anymore I'll push it over with the big tracked wedge or pull it over with the winch on the other end, or fall anything of value & size in its path & send it where the lean will let it go"

That the agency types don't get, it is like..... "what do you mean you are 75 miles from the nearest emergency care!?! Isn't that against one of our OSHA policies? If it isn't, then we need to make it one!"



northmanlogging said:


> The point you seam to be missing is that boring under your back cut, only removes material you need to lift the tree, causing you to use more wedge, 3 cuts is equal to about one wedge in thickness, so now you have used three wedges where 2 could have done it, and probably broke one in the process. but since you can't drive them deep enough, now you have to add a forth... and where exactly is that going to go? ya just going to bore under those three wedges and stuff another one in there? I think not, in fact I know yer not cause I understand physics. meanwhile said tree is crippled hanging on to whatever hold wood is left, just waiting for the next strong breeze to send it wherever it wants to go.
> 
> Also if you can't judge the lean of a tree be it crown weight, lean, limb, head, belly, whatever and you've been cutting for more then 3 weeks, hang it up before you get killed.



Are they (them, the gov, the men in black) really trying to make everyone use this method for leaners, or is this thread trying to apply a method to a situation it was never intended for? (I honestly am curious about the method/situation question).




CUCV said:


> Are they making you use the technique on every tree? That seems pretty ridiculous if they are...
> 
> I use the technique on trees with a heavy back lean and it works well. Usually the tree would also have a rope in it with a 5:1 on the other end.
> 
> The wood between wedges does break out and lift. I can't say that I have used it on a tree over 36" in diameter since I haven't cut anything bigger than that in a few years but it does work well on smaller trees. Wedge stacking on smaller diameter trees can be challenging with a heavy back lean and this is a great way to do it.



Ok, finally someone with experience using this method on a leaner. How many wedges/bore cuts did you make for over coming the lean, and when in the felling process did you make the cuts?


137cc said:


> Yep every tree, but hey nearly everything gol is ridiculous. Basically gol is an over-engineered way to fell small trees. 36" is average timber over here on the left coast. It's not that bore stacking wedges won't work, it just doesn't work very well. It takes a lot of extra force to break the wood between the vertical stacked bores. Why you would add extra resistance to a lifting wedge beyond retarded.
> 
> Basically a rope shouldn't be an excuse for garbage methods.




It would make more sense for the gov to require a series of thicker wedges, than to use the method the OP brought up. Say carry 2-10" (or 12") then a 12" that is twice as thick, and one that is three times as thick. 4 wedges total, and equalling the height of 7.... seems straight forward to me... and hey, the physics will back it up =)







Gologit said:


> Why not come on out to my part of the country and demonstrate some of your ideas? I can get you onto a real logging job for a day or two and you can show some of the production fallers your technique.
> We'll take video. Lots of video. I won't even tell the crew what your game is. I'll let them decide for themselves.
> Bring your own boots and PPE. We can provide you with a saw and the rest of the tools.





Ummmm, was this open ended, or do I need to act like a knucklehead to get an invite?





Skeans said:


> till you cut with jacks daily or come play in the big long wood you have no where to talk.



SEE I knew! You guys were using a lot of jacks..... you just don't post you opposing methods much, just simply state "the OPs method stinks, the old way has worked and still does".... just not WHAT the "old way" is exactly...........


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## FSburt (Jan 22, 2016)

Like was said in numerous posts above I usually only use that method of wedging to lift a set back tree up to get some started in the original kerf if a wedge has been initially started. Works well every time I have used it. Can see the reasoning in the first pic but again this GOL stuff is always pushed to be applied on everything and I for one use a lot of techniques I have been fortunate to have been taught over the years. My take is they have to simplify this so much now because the overall skill level of saw operators is dropping so much since the woods industry slowed down. We are getting the same thing in the Govt cutting side too because no one gets out and makes the effort to cut anymore.


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## windthrown (Jan 22, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> you got white oak and black locust on that side?



Yah, we have native white oaks here, Quercus garryana. They grow all over up and down the west coast. We also have invasive black locust here that the pioneers brought and planted when they came out in the wagon trains. I live just off the old Barlow (Oregon) Trail. They planted the locusts for using as fence posts back in the day. There was a town a few miles from here 100 years ago, and all that is left of it is a grove of black locust trees. Nothing else. They moved all the houses and stores out of there during the great depression.


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## windthrown (Jan 22, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Black oak or gerry oaks are more common farther south down by Olympia and points farther south, the closer you get to oregon the bigger and healthier they get. Maybe some white oak too? not sure there.



Gerry oak is actually white oak, AKA: Oregon white oak, Quercus garryana. The black oaks (AKA: California black oak, Quercus kelloggii) grows only as far north as Eugene. My ex in southern Oregon has both on her property, well over 6 ft DBH and 120 ft high. Looking at them you cannot tell them apart, except for the leaves. Black oaks have pointy leaves, white oaks have rounded tip leaves. Black oak is actually in the red oak family.


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## windthrown (Jan 22, 2016)

137cc said:


> Also, they were signing people on as qualified fellers who showed up with a MS 250 and an 18" bar. When the NATS guys told us that a Humboldt was an unsafe cut, I realized that I had absolute retards for bosses. They also told me that my husky 390xp w/36" bar was too big of a saw, and that I shouldn't run it all day or I would get too tired.





I thought that 'fallers' with 290s were bad. I saw a lot of them on chipping jobs around here. Don't wanna run that 390 too long or you might get tired? You might actually get _tired_ falling trees? OMG! Holy shirt... where is that OSHA number I had...


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 22, 2016)

Ok...here's one for ya. Why do they call a lift and a half / double lift, a triple taper but don't call single taper a double tapper and a double tapper a double taper edge.
And what was a matter with skip, full and semi? Why would they have to call it FULL skip when we already had a 'full', dam it.


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## Michaelmj11 (Jan 22, 2016)

Westboastfaller said:


> Ok...here's one for ya. Why do they call a lift and a half / double lift, a triple taper but don't call single taper a double tapper and a double tapper a double taper edge.
> And what was a matter with skip, full and semi? Why would they have to call it FULL skip when we already had a full dam it.



Ok I will see your chainsaw chains and raise you a bicycle pedal. 

Once upon a time there were just rectangular pedals, we'll call them candy bars, then someone made candy bar pedals with Straps, these got names "Clip on's". Later they came put with pedals that you had to wear special shoes with special cleats to use, these cleats actually clicked into/locked into the pedals.... these pedals were named "Clipless pedals".......


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

Windthrown thanks fer the correction... the oaks don't grow much here.

And michell whatever... I'd quote ya but it would take all day...

The bore with a strap thing is GOL all the way. I suppose it has its uses though honestly I don't use it often only on severe leaners. Honestly GOL/SSD has been beaten to death on this particular forum for years, and doing so again sound wearisome... though if pushed I will feel better after beating up on some swedish nonsense.

As far as jacking I personally don't jack nearly as often as I probably should, my jacks are 25 ton automotive jacks and therefore are very heavy, so the work they would save on beating wedges is lost on dragging them around. So I only drag em out when I have a large tree with obvious back lean or get into trouble and run out of wedges, like on the cedar in the picture. Sometimes if I'm close to the crummy and have a less then ideal fall, I'll go ahead and plan on using em, they are very smooth when it comes to lift so there is possibly less shock to the hold wood... maybe? You should still back up a jack with wedges any way, don't necessarily have to beat on em but just keep em tight, so if the jack fails and they eventually will, the wedges are there to take the weight.

As far as wedging or jacking a heavy back leaner over, every method has its limits, and judgment comes into play. Without giving specifics if it looks like a lot of lean it gets pulled or pushed depending on what kind of equipment is available, or in the case of the current job leave em as not worth the effort.

Also I regularly work in target rich environments, probably 10% of the trees I fall threaten structures of some sort or another with direct lean or close enough to warrant a line hung in em. Of the rest probably 60% or better would be considered "danger" trees in that they are close enough to damage structures if they where to fall in that general direction, which legally around here is a tree length and a half to the stump to the nearest building.


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## northmanlogging (Jan 22, 2016)

P.S. Jacks are good for snags as well, being smooth and easy it leaves your head free to watch the top for excessive movement, giving you crucial split seconds to get clear if the top of some rotten ole owl nest decides to try and squish the puny human that is tickling its feet.

Wedging snags is sketch city... whack wiggle wiggle wiggle, whack wiggle wiggle wiggle topple... Frankly I'm not cool enough to swing an axe and hit what I'm aiming at without looking, and I doubt many are.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jan 22, 2016)

windthrown said:


> Gerry oak is actually white oak, AKA: Oregon white oak, Quercus garryana. The black oaks (AKA: California black oak, Quercus kelloggii) grows only as far north as Eugene. My ex in southern Oregon has both on her property, well over 6 ft DBH and 120 ft high. Looking at them you cannot tell them apart, except for the leaves. Black oaks have pointy leaves, white oaks have rounded tip leaves. Black oak is actually in the red oak family.


wow, at that size you all should have some dandy export markets. white oak has been hot here for a few years now. hell, i rather see it than black walnut in a way.


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## JRoland (Jan 24, 2016)

treeslayer2003 said:


> a 390 is to big??????wtf i guess if i showed up with a 660 full wrap and 36" i am what? over or under qualified? i didn't know you guys on the west coast had to hear this crap.....i'm used to it and just say y'all better get outta the way lol.



Great day today, sun came out and I got to play in a good sized pine.
Didn't need the extra wedge lift to fall the spar, so that part didn't matter.
As far as saw size, I'm finding I use a smaller saw a little more efficiently to make all my cuts line up better for this method of cutting, while boring in, cutting a 48" tree with a 24" in bar is possible, we did that the other day.
Maybe it's just because I've always ran my saws left handed and am not as comfortable with the 395 holding it what seems backwards to me.


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