# Tree felling question



## t613 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have casually cut down various trees over the past 20 years for myself and others. My count is probably somewhere around 250 trees (not many, I know...). I have never had a problem with the dropping of trees of most sizes (from saplings to 40" oaks) and getting them to go basically where I want them to fall.

Recently I saw a video produced by Stihl on saw maint. and operation. From it I learned that I do an "open face" cut on the side of the tree I want it to go, and my own type of back cut. As I said, I do an open face, but about 3/8 of the way through the tree (instead of the 20-25% in the Stihl video). On the back cut, I do not do the horizontal "2 inches higher than the apex of the open face cut". I have always done the back cut starting about 5-6" higher than the apex and on a downward angle to meet the apex on the front cut. Except for an occasional bar pinch (which I imagine would happen with the prescribed horizontal back cut also), are there any other reasons I should stop cutting this way?

I started doing it this way (as I said, no formal training) because it seemed to make sense. On the occasion the tree would fall backwards (opposite of the way I wanted it to go), it would pinch the bar or at least fall against my angled backstop until I could get the oomph from a rope or whatever to pull it the desired way.

Can any of you guys shed some light on this for me? Do any of you guys have your own way of doing it, or do you follow what Stihl and others suggest. Any input from experienced saw gods would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Tim


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## Burvol (Jan 22, 2008)

I have heard of guys doing stuff like this for reasons of such nature. I would talk to a proffesional in your area. Out west, cutting timber is a lot different than hardwoods, but I would never use that cut. When you put your back cut above your face cut, it alows for more control when wedging or working a leaning tree, and is what is refered to as a "step". I would pay attention to how your trees lean, and make proper adjustments in that aspect. If you are worried about pinching a bar or getting hung up falling, you should probably not do it, or seriously change your technique.


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## Husky137 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tim,

You are lucky you are not dead. You put a rope in after you have screwed up the felling cuts? Very dangerous. A sloping cut is an amateur move made by many people that have no understanding of the mechanics and physics of tree-felling. Wedges in the back cut pevent the tree from pinching the bar or falling back away from the face cut. There must be a dozen threads on this site extolling the dangers of the sloping back cut. Please stay safe.


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## t613 (Jan 22, 2008)

*Thanks Husky*

Husky, thanks for responding. To clarify, I do use a rope (with an assistant) before beginning any felling cuts.

The back cut I use is the same as a horizontal back cut (hits the same place in the apex of the face cut), just started higher and angled somewhat downward toward the hinge.

I looked up a "sloping back cut" on the OSHA site. My cut resembles their picture, but their back cut comes in way lower than mine. Theirs shows the back cut coming in *below* the apex of the face cut, mine comes in about 1-2 inches *above* the apex. They claim their example of a sloping back cut allows for a poor hinge and wasted material.

I'm new to the site and am in no way a professional, that's why I'm asking for input from you guys. Again, thanks for responding, I appreciate it.

Tim


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## Husky137 (Jan 22, 2008)

Besides affecting the hinge dynamics the sloping back cut can also increase the risk of a barber chair. The slope is a greater distance to cut and a slower degree of attack to the wood fiber. This will naturally mean that it takes longer to make the back cut increasing the risk of premature release of the fibers longitudinally due to stresses in the tree, especially in leaners. A very dangerous and often fatal situation.


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## t613 (Jan 22, 2008)

Husky, I get what you're saying and will definitely keep it with me on my future tree felling trips.

I took a few minutes and did a search on "sloping back cut". Wow, there have been some GREAT debates on the subject, most colorfully on the leverage of a wedge on a horizontal/angled back cut. Great stuff!

I'm trying to learn all I can absorb from experienced cutters to #1, stay healthy and #2 have an enjoyable cutting experience (avoiding mishaps and other frustrations).

Thanks again for your replies, and everyone else's too,

Tim


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## 046 (Jan 22, 2008)

here ya go... BC Falling Training Standards

http://www.bcforestsafe.org/content-program-fallers/fallers-06-05-01-backcut.pdf

http://www.bcforestsafe.org/content-program-fallers/program-fallers-5-newfaller.htm


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## cantcutter (Jan 22, 2008)

I prefer to plunge and cut the back cut. It alows you control over the wood left in the hinge and keeps the tree from starting to lean until the last possable second. It also alows you to stop and place wedges prior to finishing the cut, without the risk of the tree being caught by wind and going over. In states where loggers have to be licensed it is the required method for licensing.


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## Husky137 (Jan 22, 2008)

t613 said:


> Husky, I get what you're saying and will definitely keep it with me on my future tree felling trips.
> 
> I took a few minutes and did a search on "sloping back cut". Wow, there have been some GREAT debates on the subject, most colorfully on the leverage of a wedge on a horizontal/angled back cut. Great stuff!
> 
> ...



Cool, good luck and safe and happy cutting.

Cantcutter, actually not a requirement for licensing in my state, but not a bad practice for many trees.


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## Mikecutstrees (Jan 22, 2008)

*my opinion on sloping back cuts*

a sloping back cut has many disadvantages.

1. Its harder to keep a correct orientation of backcut to hinge. What I mean is that if you come in and are directly opposite the notch with a 4 inch hinge if you have to cut the hinge a little more you will be below the hinge.

2. More chance for barberchair

3. when wedging the sloped lower wood is less stable and more apt to split.

4. The lower piece of firewood/ timber is wasted


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## 046 (Jan 22, 2008)

t613... a word of warning... 

take what you find on this site with several grains of salt. 
as some of the advice given will kill you! 

always best to learn from a pro in person... it's amazing how much folks will help, if you simply ask...


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## Dadatwins (Jan 22, 2008)

t613 said:


> I have casually cut down various trees over the past 20 years for myself and others. My count is probably somewhere around 250 trees (not many, I know...). I have never had a problem with the dropping of trees of most sizes (from saplings to 40" oaks) and getting them to go basically where I want them to fall.
> 
> Recently I saw a video produced by Stihl on saw maint. and operation. From it I learned that I do an "open face" cut on the side of the tree I want it to go, and my own type of back cut. As I said, I do an open face, but about 3/8 of the way through the tree (instead of the 20-25% in the Stihl video). On the back cut, I do not do the horizontal "2 inches higher than the apex of the open face cut". I have always done the back cut starting about 5-6" higher than the apex and on a downward angle to meet the apex on the front cut. Except for an occasional bar pinch (which I imagine would happen with the prescribed horizontal back cut also), are there any other reasons I should stop cutting this way?
> 
> ...



Gravity and wind are amazing aren't they????


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## Kogafortwo (Jan 23, 2008)

cantcutter said:


> I prefer to plunge and cut the back cut. It alows you control over the wood left in the hinge and keeps the tree from starting to lean until the last possable second. It also alows you to stop and place wedges prior to finishing the cut, without the risk of the tree being caught by wind and going over. In states where loggers have to be licensed it is the required method for licensing.



Don't plunge cuts have their own kind of risks? Being an amateur myself, a plunge cut is one of the many things I will leave to a professional tree service.


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## Ianab (Jan 23, 2008)

> Don't plunge cuts have their own kind of risks?



Not really. The only part that could be more dangerous is making the initial plunge, but as long as you use the lower corner of the bar tip it's pretty safe.

In many situations (leaning trees mostly) it's MUCH safer than standard felling cuts because of the better hinge and contol it gives you and the greatly reduced chance of barberchair.

Best to practice on something non-critical first, heck you can plunge cut a firewood log a few times to get the hang of it.

My girlfriend and I did a one day OSH approved basic chainsaw course and the instructor had MJ doing plunge cuts the first time she had ever used a saw. Just be carefull and watch the top corner of the tip doesn't enter the wood first.

Cheers

Ian


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## Kogafortwo (Jan 23, 2008)

*plunge cuts*

Ianab,
I watched some of Ekka's videos on AS and he does a lot of plunge cuts. He makes it look real easy, maybe that's because
a) he has years of practice and
b) he was doing it in a palm trunk - nice and spongy

I have some free firewood to cut after work later this week (yahoo - it's free) and might try it. I hope my RM chain will plunge into oak OK.


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## (WLL) (Jan 23, 2008)

Ianab said:


> Not really. The only part that could be more dangerous is making the initial plunge, but as long as you use the lower corner of the bar tip it's pretty safe
> 
> Ian


chain sawz are pretty safe


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## (WLL) (Jan 23, 2008)

046 said:


> t613... a word of warning...
> 
> take what you find on this site with several grains of salt.
> as some of the advice given will kill you!
> ...


x2


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## Scots Climber (Jan 24, 2008)

I use plunge cuts a lot of the time especially when felling Sitka and Larch. There is nothing worse than having to re-cut to release a trapped bar! I was also taught to make the open face of the "gob" smaller than 45 degrees, usually 25-30 degrees, but I was taught by someone who had worked in forestry for 40+ years. His reasoning was increased control and smaller loss to the mill able timber length. This method does mean that you have to use a breaking bar more often but the tree goes exactly where you put it 99% of the time.


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