# White smoke billowing out of chimneys



## PA. Woodsman (Dec 29, 2006)

I hardly have any smoke coming out of my chimney, but I burn seasoned wood and burn hot with a fairly recent (1993) woodstove. My neighbor, however, who sells firewood (much, much more than me) burns in a woodstove that "came with the house" and everytime that he's burning it looks like steam emitting from a nuclear power plant. Is this an indication that he is burning unseasoned wood, wet wood, and using a not-very efficient stove? Occasionally he has a load of wood sitting in the back of his truck ready for delivery, and you only have to get within 12 feet or so to smell the aroma of the freshly-cut splits. To each his own-but he really smogs up the neighborhood!


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## olyman (Dec 29, 2006)

tooo wet wood most likely--though---my wood is dry before i stack it in the basement--and the firebox doesnt go out all winter--yet--when i throw new pieces in--i have smoke for a bit--dont know the reason---


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## CertifiedFunds (Dec 29, 2006)

Most likely moisture in the wood. But what the hell do I know.:sword:


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## stihl 440 (Dec 29, 2006)

*bark*

I'm, preety sure it is the outside fresh split wood and bark burning off. Smoke turns clear on mine after that happens.


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## (WLL) (Dec 30, 2006)

*week fire*

not burning hot enough will smoke and smolder even green wood will smoke very little in a hot fire. im thinking he is not tending his fire and its not his main source of heat. he should put a fan or blower forcing the fire to get hot and keep it hot by watching it


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## PA. Woodsman (Dec 30, 2006)

(WLL) said:


> not burning hot enough will smoke and smolder even green wood will smoke very little in a hot fire. im thinking he is not tending his fire and its not his main source of heat. he should put a fan or blower forcing the fire to get hot and keep it hot by watching it



Actually the stove is in his basement, so I think that he (or his wife) loads it up and who knows what they do from there on! But I'm telling you, the white smoke just billows out of his stack like the old Bethlehem Steel stacks used to look! When I asked him years ago what kind of stove he had he said "I don't know, it came with the house"! :greenchainsaw:


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## PA Plumber (Dec 30, 2006)

Good chance his is dampering it down a lot. I run ours about 350 F to 450 F and on cold still days, get enough white smoke to see over the back yard. it there is any wind at all, it disperses within 5 to 10 feet of the cap.


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## Shmudda (Dec 30, 2006)

Gotta remember something here....smoke is unburned fuel, plain and simple. I have a Lopi Liberty wood stove and the hotter the unit runs the more efficient it is and the less "smoke" it produces. Trust me, you don't want the smoke as it creates creosote, and that causes fires. Burn it hot and you wont regret it, and neither will your neighbors!

White smoke can come from a number of different reasons. Unseasoned wood and type of wood, notice I didn't say "wet wood". You can have dried seasoned wood that is wet to the touch that will burn better then "unseasoned" wood with a very high moisture content. 

No matter what you do when storing wood outside the best moisture content you can ever get around Pennsylvania is about 15%. Most oaks, and cherries have moisture contents double or triple that when first cut, that is if they are alive and not dead.

Also, your neighbor might be throwing a few pieces of coal in the stove too and not telling anybody about it because of the potential issues around that. Some places will go as far as not allowing its residents to burn coal because of the emissions, just as what you are seeing, but of course your nose would tell you if this is happening.......

Craig


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## Shmudda (Dec 30, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Welcome to ArboristSite Craig.




Thank you TreeCo....glad to be here! I've been looking for a site like this where wood is in the blood!

Craig


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## 046 (Dec 31, 2006)

what's comes out of chimney is the true test of how clean a wood stove is burning. not referring to smoke during startup, but how much smoke is produced going full bore. 

very few wood stoves will burn clean with green and seasoned wood. 

most new wood stoves uses secondary combustion to achieve a complete burn. burning incomplete combustion products or smoke, also called woodgas. intake air is feed in near top of firebox. fresh air is pulled downwards, along with woodgas, burning the smoke. 

there's several other methods using secondary combustion to achieve a complete burn. end result is very little smoke is emitted. 

here's a link where several folks posted their wood stoves, along with chimney in action. don't know about anyone else, but I'm concerned your smoking neighbor and others like him, could cause a ban on wood burning stoves. It's already happening to OWB's. 

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=38965


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## zemmo (Dec 31, 2006)

20 years of wood burning for me. If it's really cold one always has a little moisture coming out of the pipe, and that appears white. At 40 below, it's very obvious, and it tends to just sink to the ground, as there's usually a bit of an inversion in very cold weather. But it doesn't sound like that's happening in your case.


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## Shmudda (Dec 31, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Twenty eight years of wood heat for me!
> 
> How about you?



TreeCo,

I have had chainsaws in my hand since I was 7 years old, so that make it 37 years of cutting. I would have had one in earlier but my dad and grandfather didn't see me eye to eye on that request!

My parents heated with wood, and my grand parents too. I have been heating with wood in my home for the past 10 years and have saved a pile of money off the gas bills. I heat a 2400 sqft home and my highest gas bill is has been $94.00/month so far, which is about $50.00 over the summer bill. If I had it to do over again I would have either put a wood furnace in or a wood fired outside boiler for my main heating source. As luck has it though, I just have a free standing wood burner in my basement, which is good enough for me at this time in my life.

Craig


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## smokechase II (Dec 31, 2006)

*smoke trivia*

“A wood stove is over 500 times dirtier than a modern oil burner and a 1000 times dirtier than heating with gas! Heating with a wood stove for one season generates as much pollution as driving a car 130,000 miles.”

“Freshly cut, live trees have about 50% of the weight of their wood as water…..Think about putting .. water on your stove and heating the pot until it has boiled dry. This is how much energy you are wasting. Also, the heat required to boil off all the water means the fire is cooler and so less of the wood-gas ignites and smoke increases.”

“Unburnt wood-gas condenses into tiny droplets of tar when it cools down to 40 or 50°C. These tiny droplets scatter visible light in the same way steam does when it condenses into tiny water droplets. The scattered light from the wood-smoke is a bit like seeing a cloud. The thicker the appearance of the smoke the more particles are present ……It usually has a white, or sometimes faint blue, appearance. If the smoke is black it means there is a lot of carbon, or soot, present. Black smoke suggests the fire is too hot, and may damage the heater or flue.”

These above quotes are from some quick web surfing.


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## smokechase II (Dec 31, 2006)

*understanding smoke*

More smoke trivia:

Wood does not burn. Directly.
When heated, wood breaks down into gases, that then combine with Oxygen and with a little more heat we have a chemical reaction called fire. Same process with a candle flame. The wax doesn't burn, note how the combustion (flame) is a bit above. Gases burn.

If there is less visible smoke produced from a fairly efficient fire, this does not mean it is pollution free. The list of by-products of combustion of cellulose is a bit overwhelming. 

We still need to have very efficient wood stoves. 
White smoke does generally indicate too much water.
Water is usually a fire suppressant; whether in the wood or in the atmosphere or applied to the wood by fire hose. 

Dry firewood does everything right. 
Easy to start, more heat and less pollution overall etc.


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## buckwheat (Dec 31, 2006)

But isn't the particulate matter suspended in wood smoke far less "damaging" then that of fossil fuels? In fact, some could argue that when dispersed and ultimately washed back into the ground, it provides a benefit. But don't take my comment as advocating less efficient stoves - particulate smoke is still pollution, and we don't have an unending supply of wood.

The big deal with wet wood, in addition to just being a pain to start a fire, is how much that water content absorbs calories that would otherwise provide heat. I'd have to look it up, but the absorbion rate at the point of steam conversion is rather impressive. Further, when you factor an expansion rate of 1700:1, I've actually had fires "blow themselves out" when the flames heated up a wet log and things started popping.

As for the heated gases, that's how an ABC extinguisher works: it interupts the chemical reaction occuring between the heated fuel and the conversion of the solid combustibles into those gases.


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## Husky137 (Dec 31, 2006)

buckwheat said:


> and we don't have an unending supply of wood.




Us forest growth currently exceeds use by some 33% annually.


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## PA. Woodsman (Dec 31, 2006)

*Thanks, all!*

Thanks everyone for your input. I do know that a few years ago I was out of firewood to sell, so I told a customer to call my neighbor. Well, he bought some from him and was NOT HAPPY-it was plainly unseasoned, and didn't perform well, obviously. I see my neighbor when he delivers wood to his house; he parks his truck out front and puts it into the basement like coal used to be delivered. So I'm thinking that he loads himself up with sem-seasoned wood, and it sits down in the dark basement, and he just burns it without even caring or realizing that he'd have a much better woodburning experience if he would use seasoned wood, which is funny to me since he SELLS firewood from his logging company! I would think that he'd keep some of the BEST (and dry) woods for himself! Maybe one day when he and I are both around I'll have to walk down there and ask if I could SEE his woodstove; then I could get a look-see at what's going on! Thanks again!


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## smokechase II (Dec 31, 2006)

*back to your thread*

A couple thoughts on the wood game;
Buy it a year or at least a full summer/fall ahead of use and allow it to dry.

Some woods you might want to split immediately when still green. Oak - Maple etc.

The softwoods I'm familiar with are easiest to split after they've dried as much as possible.

If your budget allows.
1) Buy wood early,
2) Up off the ground and waterproof covered,
3) But with airflow through the center for max dry effect,
4) Split early if best,
5) More than you need.

Firewood is an insurance policy.
Petro fuel prices, who cares?


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## smokechase II (Dec 31, 2006)

*wood stats*

Husky137:

Where did you get that stat, 33%?

I believe it, just want to circulate those numbers at work.

Thanks


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## smokechase II (Jan 1, 2007)

*wood smoke danger*

buckwheat:

I don't know about comparisons between cellulose and coal combustion by-products.
Do know that wood smoke produces known carcinogens. The smaller diameter particulates are the ones that are serious.


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## jab6 (Jan 2, 2007)

PA. Woodsman said:


> I hardly have any smoke coming out of my chimney, but I burn seasoned wood and burn hot with a fairly recent (1993) woodstove. My neighbor, however, who sells firewood (much, much more than me) burns in a woodstove that "came with the house" and everytime that he's burning it looks like steam emitting from a nuclear power plant. Is this an indication that he is burning unseasoned wood, wet wood, and using a not-very efficient stove? Occasionally he has a load of wood sitting in the back of his truck ready for delivery, and you only have to get within 12 feet or so to smell the aroma of the freshly-cut splits. To each his own-but he really smogs up the neighborhood!


i problably load my stove up to much also...i like to see the smoke coming from the chimney..on a cold calm nite ill pack the stove run outside in my boxers freeze my bag off just to watch the smoke....he he..nothing like a full wood box during a winter storm.......


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## cord arrow (Jan 2, 2007)

> I run ours about 350 F to 450 F



...yep, i keep mine in those ranges, happy stove, happy neighbors.

...my dear young wife left to her own devices, runs it 100 degrees or so hotter, somewhat less happy stove, even happier neighbors...

...ya know, we all need to do it right, and advocate doing it right...unless of course we care to have the government decide what we can heat with...

...there's a few brand-spankin' new high dollar epa stoves around me, and i'll tell ya, no matter what you spend, common sense is NOT included...


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## 046 (Jan 2, 2007)

where are you guys measuring that 350 to 450 degrees at? 

mine runs high as 650 degrees, measured on side walls near burn zone. air exit temp is 250 degree when running that high. normally I'll run it for air exit temps of 165-175 degrees. 

my longest burn time was 16 hours using two round logs 24in x 10in. 
normal burntime is 3-8 hours depending upon size and type of wood. since my firebox is 12 cubic feet, I can load a LOT of wood. but usually will load up maybe 1/3 - 1/2 full. 

going through under one cord per month. 
what size fireboxes are you using?


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## cord arrow (Jan 2, 2007)

mine's measured on the top of the stove, somewhat removed from the firebox...i reckon we're in the same ballpark.


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## PA Plumber (Jan 2, 2007)

jab6 said:


> i problably load my stove up to much also...i like to see the smoke coming from the chimney..on a cold calm nite ill pack the stove run outside in my boxers freeze my bag off just to watch the smoke....he he..nothing like a full wood box during a winter storm.......



Me too!!! 19 degrees F. No wind and the smoke coming out thick. Looks cool!!!

My thermometer is about 12" above the top of my stove. I will let it run a little warmer if it is in the 20's F or below.


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## 046 (Jan 3, 2007)

mine barely gets warm on outside of insert. seems most of the heat has been routed to heat exchanger/blower.

just took a set of readings... 154 degree air temp coming out of blower. outside of insert is 121 degrees. internal firebox is 489


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## mga (Jan 3, 2007)

the jerk two houses down must be burning his trash today. i went outside and the front yards were filled with _white smoke_, but it sure didn't smell like wood. the smell was so rancid, it got to the point where i had to go back inside. that's how bad it smelled. what an ???????.

it's people like that that cause problems for everyone else.


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## PA Plumber (Jan 3, 2007)

Okay, I just took some stat readings for reference.
Air temp coming from the top center exit holes for the blower: 245 F.
Flue temp. measured off of flue wall on exterior 10" above stove: 366 F
Magnetic thermostat on flue 10" above stove reads 400 F. 

Our stove is made by Long Manufacturing (Here when we bought the house). We use it to heat about 2600 Sq. Ft. not including the basement where the stove is located. Does a good job to about 25 F. The 2nd floor runs a little chilly, but great for sleeping!


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