# What causes or caused this change in angle in the trunk?



## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

I have seen many bent trees, such as bent oak trees, but their trunk is a consistent curve. In this case, there is a clear change in angle. Why does the curve here abruptly change angle? Does this mean a piece of the trunk was chopped off? The first tree is the one I'm interested in. The second and third tree are example of bent trees where you can see a consistent curve with no abrupt change in angle. I have pointed out the relevant areas in each of the pictures. This particular tree is a spotted gum tree in Australia by the way I believe. 

Note I am not asking why the general shape occurs in all trees. I am moreso asking specifically why the first tree has an abrupt angle change in its trunk (see circle) but not the other two.


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

It's not uncommon to find trees with similar structure. The tree (tree A) begins straight into the sky, which is its job. Then, due to snow load, excessive wind, or any kind of weakness or death, an adjacent tree falls and bends tree A sideways, 90 degrees to its skyward shape. But a tree's job, its reason to be, is to grow straight up toward the sun, so it bends back sunward. Resulting in the shape in your photo.

Tomorrow I might dig out a photo of a remarkable such tree up the road from me.


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## capetrees (Jan 11, 2021)




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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

old CB said:


> It's not uncommon to find trees with similar structure. The tree (tree A) begins straight into the sky, which is its job. Then, due to snow load, excessive wind, or any kind of weakness or death, an adjacent tree falls and bends tree A sideways, 90 degrees to its skyward shape. But a tree's job, its reason to be, is to grow straight up toward the sun, so it bends back sunward. Resulting in the shape in your photo.
> 
> Tomorrow I might dig out a photo of a remarkable such tree up the road from me.


I'm not sure this addresses the question. Your explanation explains why the general shape occurs in all trees. I am moreso asking specifically why the first tree has an abrupt angle change in its trunk but not the others.


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> why the first tree has an abrupt angle change in its trunk but not the others.


Because the others did not get knocked sideways by something falling on them.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

old CB said:


> Because the others did not get knocked sideways by something falling on them.


I don't understand why the angle has to abruptly change in this case. There are cases of trees that have been bent due to something likely falling on them (since they seem too small to be intentionally bent by humans like trail marker trees) where this abrupt angle change doesn't occur. I've attached an example where the curve is still smooth. Also, is it possible tree A in the post was shaped intentionally by humans, perhaps by Aboriginals?


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

@old CB By the way, I'd appreciate it a lot if you can find a picture of the tree you mentioned


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

It's certainly possible that any such tree was caused by human intervention. But unless you shot any of these photos 120 years ago, all the Indians I know have been navigating using maps and such like in the meantime.

Now that you mention it, I have a neighbor up the road who I've worked for who has some saplings bent (rope and such) into crazy shapes for the future. He's a retired Asian chef if that means anything.


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## ATH (Jan 11, 2021)

tall skinny tree

Another tree falls on it making a spring pole tree.

One of the lower branches that was horizontal now is pointing straight up.

That branch grows up, up, up.

The tree "decides" it doesn't need the old trunk that was above that branch because it has a new trunk, so that old part dies.


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## Del_ (Jan 11, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> I don't understand why the angle has to abruptly change in this case. There are cases of trees that have been bent due to something likely falling on them (since they seem too small to be intentionally bent by humans like trail marker trees) where this abrupt angle change doesn't occur. I've attached an example where the curve is still smooth. Also, is it possible tree A in the post was shaped intentionally by humans, perhaps by Aboriginals?



The angle changes abruptly because a sprout on the trunk achieved dominance over the bent main trunk and the main trunk later died off for the same reason that all trees shed limbs that don't get enough sun.

These are the same trees you started another post about.


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## Del_ (Jan 11, 2021)

Damn that ATH beat me to it.. ... .....again!


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## ATH (Jan 11, 2021)

old CB said:


> It's certainly possible that any such tree was caused by human intervention. But unless you shot any of these photos 120 years ago, all the Indians I know have been navigating using maps and such like in the meantime.
> 
> Now that you mention it, I have a neighbor up the road who I've worked for who has some saplings bent (rope and such) into crazy shapes for the future. He's a retired Asian chef if that means anything.


Yeah, there _were _certainly trail marker trees...but not many of those will still remain. A lot of people want that token of history to be a part of their property, but that want doesn't make it so.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_ said:


> The angle changes abruptly because a sprout on the trunk achieved dominance over the bent main trunk and the main trunk later died off for the same reason that all trees shed limbs that don't get enough sun.
> 
> These are the same trees you started another post about.


What I'm having trouble understanding is that didn't a sprout on the trunk have to also achieve dominance over the bent main trunk in the case of the other two trees? There is a stub in the case of the other two trees as well indicating that the old part died but the curves in those trunks are not abruptly changed. That is the crux of my confusion. And yes, this is my second post, but the question before was moreso in regards to bark shedding which is a different topic.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

@Del_ @ATH @old CB I was wondering actually if the abrupt angle change is because of the difference in tree species. Someone I asked on another forum was mentioning that, and I'm quoting verbatim, "It's the difference in tree species in how the reaction wood develops. Look up compression wood and tension wood.". I was interested in your thoughts on this. Going to do some research on this as well.


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

So here's a photo (had to get my daughter to coach me through getting it here from I-Photo). It's a Ponderosa Pine. I'm standing by the main trunk. It bends over toward the ground, though there's no connection between tree and soil, then goes skyward again.


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## Del_ (Jan 11, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> View attachment 881662



What this photo may be showing what is called 'fiber buckling'. Fiber buckling is where the tree fibers on the compression side fail in a minor way and are pulled apart. Likely reaction wood has formed around the buckled fibers so the lump seen may be a combination of the two.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> @Del_ @ATH @old CB I was wondering actually if the abrupt angle change is because of the difference in tree species. Someone I asked on another forum was mentioning that, and I'm quoting verbatim, "It's the difference in tree species in how the reaction wood develops. Look up compression wood and tension wood.". I was interested in your thoughts on this. Going to do some research on this as well.


If the others are oak trees, and this is a spotted gum tree, since both are angiosperms which seem to produce the same kind of reaction wood (tension instead of compression), perhaps this is not the right explanation actually, according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_wood. Hm, it looks like this is still unexplained.


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## sean donato (Jan 11, 2021)

I smell a troll.....


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

These are really not uncommon. When I drive down the woods road to my camp, I pass beneath an elm that took its sideways path about 12 foot up, went sideways about 8 feet, then continued up. Whether it's main trunk or limb that shoots skyward is little matter. The tree will find its way in that direction one way or another. Probably one or the other is a flip of the coin.


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

Sean, the troll thing crossed my mind, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here.


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## sean donato (Jan 11, 2021)

old CB said:


> Sean, the troll thing crossed my mind, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here.


I'm trying brother..........


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## old CB (Jan 11, 2021)

If he's a troll, he's a hard-working SOB.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

Ha, I'm not a troll. I have just had a fascination of bent trees and trail marker trees, but never noticed an abrupt angle change like on this one. Again, just to clarify again, I am only specifically talking about this tree. Again, I am not asking WHY this tree shape occurs. I understand this, and I understand how the old main trunk of a tree died off after bending. My question is specifically in regards to this tree and the abrupt angle change, which I DO NOT see in the other two images and nor in most bent trees. If you pull up an image of a bent tree or a trail marker tree, you won't find a picture of a bent tree with a trunk that abruptly changes angle like that


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## Del_ (Jan 11, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> Ha, I'm not a troll. I have just had a fascination of bent trees and trail marker trees, but never noticed an abrupt angle change like on this one. Again, just to clarify again, I am only specifically talking about this tree. Again, I am not asking WHY this tree shape occurs. I understand this, and I understand how the old main trunk of a tree died off after bending. My question is specifically in regards to this tree and the abrupt angle change, which I DO NOT see in the other two images and nor in most bent trees. If you pull up an image of a bent tree or a trail marker tree, you won't find a picture of a bent tree with a trunk that abruptly changes angle like that



Each tree is an individual so responses may vary.

I've seen bent trees with abrupt changes like that. Maybe making too big of a deal out of one specimen.


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## Del_ (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm seeing compression and tension wood together on the photos. 

It's not like it is one or the other. Both occur and work together to seek the light and to fight gravity.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_ said:


> Each tree is an individual so responses may vary.
> 
> I've seen bent trees with abrupt changes like that. Maybe making too big of a deal out of one specimen.


That seems fair. The reason I'm curious is because I was wondering whether human intervention was somehow the cause of it. I'm not a tree expert so forgive me if the upcoming question seems ignorant, but do you think it's possible that someone sort of took a chunk of the trunk off, explaining that angle change. This is an open question to anyone reading this.


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## ATH (Jan 11, 2021)

You are talking about where the arrow is pointing? There are a few different reactions that could cause that. I'll take a stab at one possibility:
When the tree got bent, it split along the grain (called a longitudinal split). The reaction wood that formed around each of those splits lead to the strange angle you are seeing.

I don't think it is a compression/tension wood thing.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 12, 2021)

ATH said:


> You are talking about where the arrow is pointing? There are a few different reactions that could cause that. I'll take a stab at one possibility:
> When the tree got bent, it split along the grain (called a longitudinal split). The reaction wood that formed around each of those splits lead to the strange angle you are seeing.
> 
> I don't think it is a compression/tension wood thing.


Very interesting. I will research longitudinal splits and try to get back on this. I was wondering by the way whether you think human intervention might be the cause here. Again, this question is open for anyone reading.

To be specific, at the bottom part of the trunk, I was wondering whether someone took a chunk of it off right where the arrow is pointed. Kind of like a slice off making the most bottom part of the trunk smaller in diameter, causing the rest of the trunk that bends upwards to make that abrupt angle change. Do you know what I mean?


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## arathol (Jan 12, 2021)




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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 12, 2021)

ATH said:


> You are talking about where the arrow is pointing? There are a few different reactions that could cause that. I'll take a stab at one possibility:
> When the tree got bent, it split along the grain (called a longitudinal split). The reaction wood that formed around each of those splits lead to the strange angle you are seeing.
> 
> I don't think it is a compression/tension wood thing.


I found another closeup of the tree. Was wondering if you think this might be related to the split you're referring to.


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## lone wolf (Jan 12, 2021)

capetrees said:


>



Could be.


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## ATH (Jan 12, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> ...I was wondering by the way whether you think human intervention might be the cause here. ...


At this point, without further evidence, I think it is impossible to say whether human intervention played a role here or not. I don't see anything that suggests a slice was taken out, but that is not impossible. Did person pull the tree over? Maybe. Did a person fell one tree that leaned into this one? Maybe.

Something made it lean...that much we know. Curious: why does it matter what caused the original lean?


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 12, 2021)

ATH said:


> At this point, without further evidence, I think it is impossible to say whether human intervention played a role here or not. I don't see anything that suggests a slice was taken out, but that is not impossible. Did person pull the tree over? Maybe. Did a person fell one tree that leaned into this one? Maybe.
> 
> Something made it lean...that much we know. Curious: why does it matter what caused the original lean?


Again, I moreso wanted to know about the specific change in the bend near the bottom of the trunk. Thank you for the help by the way. What caused the original lean I'm uncertain of of course, but I have seen these tree shapes before. It's just the abruptness of the angle change confused me. And the confusion led to curiosity. There is actually sort of an interesting story to this tree, but it would take me ages to explain this. Perhaps I can talk to you about this over PMs.

You saw my most recent picture by the way right? It was more of a close up, and I do see a split there. (bottom right of trunk).


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## Del_ (Jan 12, 2021)

tree_enthusiast12 said:


> There is actually sort of an interesting story to this tree, but it would take me ages to explain this. Perhaps I can talk to you about this over PMs.



Well that would really suck.

There are quite a few of us following along.

Spill the beans!


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 12, 2021)

Del_ said:


> Well that would really suck.
> 
> There are quite a few of us following along.
> 
> Spill the beans!


Alright, this will be long, but here I go. The way I found out about this tree was through a man online, a Muslim man. He was trying to convince me of a miracle in his religion (Islam) and pointed me to this tree. This tree is located near a scout camp in Nowra, Australia. The supposed miracle was that this tree looks like a man bending down in Islamic prayer. In Islam, Muslims bend and pray towards Mecca, and he claimed that this tree was facing Mecca. I have attached an original picture of the tree below (the first time the tree was found) along with the prayer position in Islam. He claimed that the white markings on it look like an arm (middle of the trunk) where you could also see its eyes (two white dots on the stub). He also said that the area where the angle changes abruptly that I pointed out earlier was the tree person's "hand". He said all of these events could not have come about by chance and was intended by God, hence a miracle.

Being the skeptic I am, I wanted to investigate this further. I found instances of this tree online, and youtube videos with 1M+ views in regards to this tree (here is one example if you're interested: ). The tree was eventually cut down since the owner complained that many people would come near that tree and leave their belongings there which became an annoyance, so I wasn't able to verify where it was facing, but from some pictures I found of a compass alongside the tree, it faced very close to Mecca, but not exactly.

Given that there are 3 trillion trees in the world, it did not seem impossible for a tree like this to be created by chance and also face towards Mecca without resorting to supernatural reasons. However, the reason I became still unsure about this tree being created completely by chance were the white markings that resembled an arm + hands + eyes and also because I had seen bent trees like this before: trail marker trees in North America. Although there have been no online reports I could find of Aboriginals bending trees in Australia, this tree was near an Aboriginal area from what I know, and I have heard stories of Aboriginals bending trees in other parts of Australia through personal anecdotes, but not through any documented sources. So, I became curious as to whether this tree was bent by Aboriginals. I also became curious as to whether this tree, as far fetched as this may sound, was bent by some Muslim trying to achieve the purpose of making a miracle. I was also curious as to whether it is possible that some person specifically shed the bark in certain white patterns in the below picture to try to resemble a human. Lastly, since I had seen bent trees before but without the abrupt change in angle near the bottom right of the trunk in my previous picture, I was curious as to why it was the way it is. This is because the area where the angle changes abruptly was what the Muslim man claimed to be the person's hand. And so I was curious as to whether it's possible someone took a chunk of the trunk off right there. This is what brought me here.

So if there are still any insights you guys might have in regards to what caused that abrupt change in angle (whether through natural or potential human intervention), I'd be all ears. Anyways, that is the story


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## arathol (Jan 13, 2021)

pareidolia​/ˌperēˈdōlēə/​noun

1.the perception of apparently significant patterns or recognizable images, especially faces, in random or accidental arrangements of shapes and lines:"there could be a mysterious stone coffin on Mars, or, more likely, it's just the latest example of *pareidolia*"
Its whatever you think it is.....
Looks like a dolphin breaching





You are trying too hard to see something that isn't there. Most likely there is no one single cause for the odd shape of the tree. A series of events, with or without human intervention, over a fairly long span of time could do this.


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## Tin-knocker (Jan 13, 2021)

Found these two redwoods not too long ago. I’ve seen plenty redwoods with lots of weird angles and shapes but having these two be right next to each other with the same bend in the same spot was pretty cool. Anyone know what would cause this?


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## ATH (Jan 13, 2021)

A) I don't think anybody bent it to look like that. It would be very unpredictable what a tree is going to look like (so specifically) 40 years after bending.
B) Like @arathol said, you see what you want to see sometimes. Once seen, it is hard to unsee that. Like the Abraham Lincoln French fry. Or how many "old man mountain" formations are there that look like faces in rocks? Search "tree that looks like a person". There are lot of those out there.
C) The white bark flaking off that would be the "arms"...note that is on the outside of the "circle" - similar to what would be the "back", so those areas are a little more exposed so it is logical that the outter bark would exfoliate there first.

Outta the tree zone now: Can the creator of all things cause that? Sure. But so can another tree falling on it. Speaking for myself: my faith in the eternal is more substantial than seeing a tree praying to a man-made city thousands of miles away... If that is what faith is founded on, maybe that belief isn't so well rooted as this tree?


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## ATH (Jan 13, 2021)

Tin-knocker said:


> Found these two redwoods not too long ago. I’ve seen plenty redwoods with lots of weird angles and shapes but having these two be right next to each other with the same bend in the same spot was pretty cool. Anyone know what would cause this?


I think same things covered earlier in this thread...something bent the trunk but it grew vertical because that is the way trees are "supposed to grow". Tropism.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 13, 2021)

ATH said:


> A) I don't think anybody bent it to look like that. It would be very unpredictable what a tree is going to look like (so specifically) 40 years after bending.
> B) Like @arathol said, you see what you want to see sometimes. Once seen, it is hard to unsee that. Like the Abraham Lincoln French fry. Or how many "old man mountain" formations are there that look like faces in rocks? Search "tree that looks like a person". There are lot of those out there.
> C) The white bark flaking off that would be the "arms"...note that is on the outside of the "circle" - similar to what would be the "back", so those areas are a little more exposed so it is logical that the outter bark would exfoliate there first.
> 
> Outta the tree zone now: Can the creator of all things cause that? Sure. But so can another tree falling on it. Speaking for myself: my faith in the eternal is more substantial than seeing a tree praying to a man-made city thousands of miles away... If that is what faith is founded on, maybe that belief isn't so well rooted as this tree?


You're guessing that the tree is 40 years old based on the diameter of the trunk? Secondly, can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by "outside of the 'circle'". Which areas in the tree specifically do you think are more exposed and would logically result in the outer bark exfoliating first?

Also, thank you for your response.


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## ATH (Jan 13, 2021)

40 yrs was just a random #. Plausible. Depending on site and species could be 20 or 200 just as easily.

For the white bark:
Imagine the "back" is a cylinder attached to the "body" and the "arms" as a separate cylinder attached on the bottom side. What part of those cylinders is most exposed to things rubbing against them (knocking bark off)? Not the underside or top side, but the parts that stick out to the sides the furthest. That is where the bark is exfoliating as expected.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 13, 2021)

ATH said:


> 40 yrs was just a random #. Plausible. Depending on site and species could be 20 or 200 just as easily.
> 
> For the white bark:
> Imagine the "back" is a cylinder attached to the "body" and the "arms" as a separate cylinder attached on the bottom side. What part of those cylinders is most exposed to things rubbing against them (knocking bark off)? Not the underside or top side, but the parts that stick out to the sides the furthest. That is where the bark is exfoliating as expected.


Ah, this still doesn’t make sense to me sorry, but I think i know where my confusion here lies now.

The white bark is the new bark, not the old bark, no? The original bark would be dark, so isn’t it exfoliating on the top side of the cylinder more (where the “back” would be)? Notice it’s completely white on the top side of the bend meaning the old bark has completely gone away (apart from the brown circle). Meanwhile, on the sides where the “arms” are, it has partially exfoliated into white marks but not fully, no?


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## Rabid K9 (Jan 14, 2021)

Am very familiar with the species (Corymbia maculata).

Moderate to fast growing hardwood, wide natural distribution, valuable tree commercially with a variety of heavy structural uses, timber achieves a high BAL (Bushfire Attack Level) rating, so still able to be used externally for construction. Still used for power poles in certain areas. I have a stack at my yard salvaged from jobs that will be sold as 'bush poles'.

The morphology of that particular specimen is very common, certainly not restricted to the species & the likely reason of it's development have been explained here already. Will commonly see this type of structure a number of times within large spotted gums (spotties for short), with some impressive compression ribs & other feature even on relatively young trees such as this. Would estimate tree age to be <35 years, in this situation, tree as an indigenous marker is not plausible. Directional & territorial trees were marked differently & could walk you directly to many in some of our remoter regions.

Photos showing some thinning work in mixed plantation of spotted gum & red stringy bark to give an idea of growth rate. Was planted 1995, average side conditions, poorly managed (as a timber resource) since then.


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## tree_enthusiast12 (Jan 14, 2021)

Rabid K9 said:


> Am very familiar with the species (Corymbia maculata).
> 
> Moderate to fast growing hardwood, wide natural distribution, valuable tree commercially with a variety of heavy structural uses, timber achieves a high BAL (Bushfire Attack Level) rating, so still able to be used externally for construction. Still used for power poles in certain areas. I have a stack at my yard salvaged from jobs that will be sold as 'bush poles'.
> 
> ...


Interesting, did not expect an Aussie to chime in, cheers. When you say you've seen this particular morphology, do you mean that you've seen it bent in that manner? This is (or was, since it is now cut down) in New South Wales in Bengalee Scout Camp in Nowra, Australia by the way. From what I know, it is near an Aboriginal area, hence was wondering whether it's possible it was bent by them. You said aboriginal marked trees are marked differently. Where have you seen them? Anecdotally, I have heard stories of Aboriginals bending trees that looked similar to trail marker trees from North America in Queensland. This particular specimen does look like a trail marker tree from North America, and so wanted to ask why exactly it's not plausible that this might have been shaped purposefully.

Do you have any thoughts on the abrupt angle change on the bottom right side of the trunk by the way as discussed a bit earlier on this thread?


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## Franny K (Jan 14, 2021)

I was wondering how much variation in the point of discussion would there be in say a hundred feet of living fence made like this picture I found quickly with credit to mother earth news.


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## ray benson (Jan 15, 2021)

The crooked forest in Poland.
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/...phrase=crooked forest poland&sort=mostpopular


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## billyboy (Jan 17, 2021)

I think two bucks were having a dual and they fell on the tree when it had a two inch trunk at ground level and bent it over to the ground Causing internal damage to the tree. A few years later a beaver came along and said to himself, “oh boy, I don’t have to stand on my hind legs to cut off this branch”. A single little branch said to himself, “oh boy, I get to be the leader”.


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## ATH (Jan 17, 2021)

Ah yes...the Australian beaver.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2021)

ATH said:


> Ah yes...the Australian beaver.


Easy! 77yrs may be to soon since the US troops stationed over there in WW2. ( not really)
Dam fancier uniforms , taking all the sheila's & making double the wage?
The Aussies would say:
"They're over paid, over sexed and over here"
Lol.
Oh well, once everyone was deployed, all the fist fights were soon forgotten about.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2021)

Franny K said:


> I was wondering how much variation in the point of discussion would there be in say a hundred feet of living fence made like this picture I found quickly with credit to mother earth news.View attachment 882334


That's pretty cool. In the English countryside I've seen mature beech hedges weaved or ++, mixed in. That's cool. The hedges are inpregnetable. Dogs will peg a pheasant against them.
I saw a different style, I thought it was just an impressive neat pile of brush then I noticed it was all layered, hinged over and weaved in. Probably about 12-15ft long and at about 2" dia.


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## KarlD (Jan 18, 2021)

Westboastfaller said:


> That's pretty cool. In the English countryside I've seen mature beech hedges weaved or ++, mixed in. That's cool. The hedges are inpregnetable. Dogs will peg a pheasant against them.
> I saw a different style, I thought it was just an impressive neat pile of brush then I noticed it was all layered, hinged over and weaved in. Probably about 12-15ft long and at about 2" dia.


We call that a layed hedge. I used to do a lot of them when I managed countrywide sites for the local authority.


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## Westboastfaller (Jan 18, 2021)

KarlD said:


> We call that a layed hedge. I used to do a lot of them when I managed countrywide sites for the local authority.


Ok, Thanks for that. Very cool! Thats a smart way to do it.
I've had to 'hinge' larger sized varieties of 'Pacific willow' once, per as forestry specs, way back in the day to encourage the moose. Generally that is not an acceptable practice in contract thinning of softwood/ brushing deciduous.
That's kinda baiting the animals?
Especially right next to a hunting lodge with international clients.
Just get them so high on ASA (aspirin) and shoot them?
Moose are probably not that dumb of an Animal. They just all have a drug problem.






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