# While I'm Not A Newbie,... Why Is Using Spikes to "Prune Only" A Bad Thing?"



## StihlRockin' (Oct 3, 2013)

Here in N. Minnesota, not necessarily the twin metro, but hours N. of that...

Climbing with SRT or similar is not common. Using spikes for removal however, is. 

Using spikes to remove a few dead limbs is common around here. I ask you fellow Arboristsite members the drawbacks or negs of using spikes for simple trimming jobs.

OK, more specific...

What are the disadvantages or negatives of trimming trees of their dead limbs and not full removals when the tree is fully alive and healthy?

I feel I know a few answers, but you guys are going to learn this dude some stuff. LOL!

Thanks!

*Stihl*Rockin'


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## Guran (Oct 3, 2013)

The spikes will cause damage to the bark, phloem and cambium. The tree could get infected by that.
Spikes is fine for removal obviously. If you want to keep the tree "fully alive and healthy" I suggest that you prune spikeless.


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## Goose IBEW (Oct 3, 2013)

Every spike mark will leave a wound an an entry location for infestation.

It is painfully obvious that spiking to prune a tree is not the correct means of caring for it and the scars look hideous for years to come. I have found that by practicing drt climbing even on a rig as simple as the Blake's hitch, you can be faster and more proficient at your work. With spikes, you will generally be limited to working the trunk of the tree, on drt you can limb walk and get to the outer branches for up close and precise trims. This is coming from someone who started out doing spike removals. It is liberating to learn how to navigate the whole tree and not be limited to hanging out near the trunk. Better learn your rope climbing and you will find that you will be more comfortable, do a better job and exert less energy in a tree to perform the same work. Good luck and safe climbing.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


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## Carburetorless (Oct 11, 2013)

The only time I've ever used spikes on a tree that was staying was to position myself on a dead limb that I was removing in sections, but I only spiked the dead limb so I could move out towards the end of it. My spikes never touched the live part of the tree.

I've seen trees that had been spiked, and they didn't die, but other did. I think the biggest risk of damaging a live tree by spiking it is the fact that spikes are normally used on dead trees, and many of those dead trees died from diseases, those diseases are probably on the spikes that are used on them, so spiking a live tree with infected spikes could possibly spread the infection from the spikes to the live tree.

The same thing goes for your cutting tools.


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## BC WetCoast (Oct 12, 2013)

There are two situations where I could see spurs being used on live trees. 

One, mature Douglas fir or sequoia where the dead bark is so thick, you would never reach the cork cambium let alone the cambium. However, I don't see any need as the tree would be so large that just trying to advance the lanyard would be such of a pain that rope climbing it would be worthwhile.

The second situation is a poor condition tree, a tree on the verge of being condemned but for whatever reason isn't and some deadwood/sketchy branches need to be removed. In this situation there may not be any good places to tie in and spurring the tree isn't going to create more problems than the tree already has.


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## kyle goddard (Oct 12, 2013)

Well that sums it up. 

What do you clean your cutting tools with?


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## imagineero (Oct 13, 2013)

10% bleach solution. Don't leave it on too long, it's hard on steel.


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## kyle goddard (Oct 13, 2013)

*blue mountains*



imagineero said:


> 10% bleach solution. Don't leave it on too long, it's hard on steel.



I see your from blue mountains. In Pennsylvania by any chance?


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 13, 2013)

The OP really needs to g to school!
Jeff :msp_scared:


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## 802climber (Oct 13, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> The OP really needs to g to school!
> Jeff :msp_scared:



The OP really needs a self-climbing tree stand.


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## StihlRockin' (Oct 14, 2013)

To the *&!$% who did nothing to add to the post, but make semi-disparaging remarks, I pitty you. While I've been doing this longer than most of our employees have been alive and enjoying the benefits of self-employment since the 80's, just because I ask a question, it doesn't necessarily means it's from me directly. I ask because I know of several climbers in my area who prune live trees with spikes. I also KNOW most of the reasons NOT to climb healthy live trees with spikes. However, unlike you all, I learned to ask questions with humility.

I think I have a strong grasp on the negative reasons of climbing live trees with gaffs since I've been doing this professionally since most of you been alive, but when asking a question, I may just learn one more thing. I'm never too knowledgable to learn something new.

Since this forum went down, I had to resort to going to other forums and they talk much about this place having idiots. Now I'm not saying there are idiots here on this thread now, but I'm starting to understand what they are saying. If you ever get the feeling to leave stupid or non-helpful remarks, maybe it's best you just stop yourself and move on to another post before you embarrass yourself or let others know your true colors.

As for the few who took their valuable time and answered my questions, I sincerely appreciate your replies and am sorry you have to read the type of remarks this place has been rumored for, for quite some time now.

StihlRockin'


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## sgreanbeans (Oct 14, 2013)

Another reason not to spike prunes, it exposes you for what ya really are.

If you spike a prune, your a hack, simple as that........


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## sgreanbeans (Oct 14, 2013)

I will jump on that, see, the reason the others don't like this forum, is they come here, say they are the best, seasoned and have done it all, seen it all and give advice ..... on it all. Then they ask why it is bad to prune with spikes. 

They get bashed, cant handle the heat, so they go to the kinder, gentler forum where everybody pats each other on the back, kinda like a "no child left behind" deal.

Maybe, if you asked in a different manner, you would get different responses. "I'm not a newb, but why is spiking bad". Not a good way to ask a Q. You have been doing this how long, and you don't know the answer?

BTW, quit talking trash about the whole site, while there are some major A holes here, they are consistent. Rather have a consistent A hole than a poser. They are individuals and do not speak for everyone.....most of the time. 

Referring to the others forums while talking trash about this one, that will get you a permanent seat with the "others".

The fact that they talk trash, means they read and are afraid to post.


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## imagineero (Oct 14, 2013)

I generally try not to give guys a hard time in the 101 forum, they're here to learn after all and no question is too dumb. You talk about humility, but you've pretty much come in here and made an ass of yourself. By your own admission, presumably you've been climbing for around 30+ years, ran forums online, been a member of this site for 5 years, but you come on and ask newb questions, then chew people out for the answers they give you. You've got to rethink your approach to the job. Did you just wake up recently and start wondering about these basic things, after being in the industry so long? There's nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case then ask and listen. Two ears, one mouth and all that. Some of the comments you make really get alarm bells ringing, like you don't use your flipline much while spiking? What the ####!

When you're passionate about your job, you tend to take an interest in it. Like, if I was a chef, I'd be reading up on it every day, asking for advice, looking around, trying to work for the best in town so I could lift my game. I'd be looking into what was the best knife, how to sharpen it, different pots, recipes and so on. Well, there's chef's, then there's cooks, then there's slophouse workers. If you're coming onto a forum after 30 years as a 'chef' and asking how to peel a potato, then you're going to catch some grief. 

There's nothing wrong with trying to lift your game, no matter how many years you've been in the game, or what level you're at.... but the attitude makes a difference. The guys that come on here with the attitude of "I been doing this my whole life, I don't need this crap, but tell me about it anyways" tend not to get the best advice. The questions you asked are sensible questions, and they've been asked many times before and answered well, but if you haven't taken an interest in the last 5 years you've been a member here, what's changed?


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## miko0618 (Oct 14, 2013)

I agree with both here. I don't think a legitimate question should be answered with condescending sarcasm. I do think there are better ways to communicate. call him out on it, but be an adult. I just asked a chipper related question and I got an answer that said " you don't own a grease gun". I didn't even reply. I wanted to say " I own a grease gun but this is my first chipper you ignorant f*&k!". but theres no point. just ignore the people on their pedestals and thank the people that are there to help.


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## imagineero (Oct 14, 2013)

Yeah you've got to expect that from Jeff, that's just how he's wired. I've got to admit I almost 'liked' his post. But you got some very good advice shortly after, and didn't it turn out that you didn't realise there was a grease fitting there? I'm going to bet without even seeing that that lack of grease was a contributing factor, if not the main cause of your problem, so I guess everyone has their own way of 'helping'.


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## miko0618 (Oct 14, 2013)

that's my point. I gathered from his comment that I needed to grease it. you can get the point even if its not the best way of communicating. but naturally your first reaction, and sometimes the only reaction, is to get upset. so its both ways and it will always be that way.


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## HuskStihl (Oct 14, 2013)

I've been a old growth faller in the PNW for 20 years, and before that I was a Stihl master technician for 10 years. I don't expect any of you guys to be able to answer this to my satisfaction, as you probably don't have my experience or abilities, but what are those pointy metal things attached to the saw chassis where the blade comes off? They seem like more of a hazard than anything useful??????


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## miko0618 (Oct 14, 2013)

chainsaws don't have blades


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## kyle goddard (Oct 14, 2013)

There dog's. Why do you think there hazardous.? Btw im talking about them pointed metal things. 

I think this thread has gone off the wall. So I cant tell if you're serious or not.


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## 802climber (Oct 14, 2013)

Lol ? 



stihlrockin' said:


> i feel i know a few answers, but you guys are going to learn this dude some stuff. Lol!


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 14, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> that's my point. I gathered from his comment that I needed to grease it. you can get the point even if its not the best way of communicating. but naturally your first reaction, and sometimes the only reaction, is to get upset. so its both ways and it will always be that way.



I did not to mean to sound the way you took it. Sorry, 
Jeff


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## miko0618 (Oct 14, 2013)

its no problem. I was using it as an example, not as an outlet to vent. I appreciate you apologizing. seriously, don't sweat it.


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## Goose IBEW (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm still relatively new on here as far as I'm concerned. I have taken the heat for saying something stupid, took it like a man and learned from it. What did I learn? Keep my mouth shut when I don't know what I'm talking about.

I am about to turn 40 years old and have owned, used and maintained my own saws since I was 12. When it comes to climbing, spikes or no spikes, I'm a newb like it or not. I listen, (read 100 times more than I post), expect to be treated like a green horn when my actions deem it deserving and respect the guys that have been doing this profession for their whole lives. Like an 18 year old ground hand, gonna hear about it when you are deserving of. 

I was taken back a little as you start out claiming to be a newb ready to learn but later on in the thread claim to be doing this longer than some of us have been alive insinuating that you already know the answer to the questions you put forth. I really don't care either way but your reputation becomes shaky when you change the story mid stream. 

I learned that its good to clean your tools with 10% bleach solution to avoid spreading disease to the trees you want to take care of. I thank the member who shared this knowledge. Be truthful and humble, you will get answers. Keep your composure no matter what someone else does. Just because you feel someone else pulled the pin doesn't mean you have to. Also, I'm by no means a moderator but using @#$% to disguise curse words really isn't the best thing to do either, the warning has been posted in the stickies. 

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2


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## KenJax Tree (Oct 14, 2013)

miko0618 said:


> its no problem. I was using it as an example, not as an outlet to vent. I appreciate you apologizing. seriously, don't sweat it.



just tell Jeff "I have a potty mouth" :msp_smile:


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 14, 2013)

KenJax Tree said:


> just tell Jeff "I have a potty mouth" :msp_smile:



I hear that a lot, but I don't cry about it. It is true I forget to take my man-suit off after work sometimes and may seem harsh. Just call me on it and I will then know then how to react to certain poster's. :msp_tongue:
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Oct 14, 2013)

Goose IBEW said:


> Also, I'm by no means a moderator but using @#$% to disguise curse words really isn't the best thing to do either, the warning has been posted in the stickies.
> 
> Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2



True,, I use space's!
Jeff


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## Carburetorless (Nov 9, 2013)

@Jeff

Are you the one that redesigned the site???


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## StihlRockin' (Nov 11, 2013)

Goose IBEW said:


> I'm still relatively new on here...
> 
> I was taken back a little as you start out claiming to be a newb ready to learn but later on in the thread claim to be doing this longer than some of us have been alive insinuating that you already know the answer to the questions you put forth. I really don't care either way but your reputation becomes shaky when you change the story mid stream."



Maybe being "relatively new" has something to do with it? I don't know and it's really not an issue, but I've NEVER claimed to be a "n_ewb_". I think maybe it had something to do with the way this forum part has it's titled posted:

"_This Forum is for individuals new to the business and seeking help learning the basics. Ask the pro's here._"

First of all, I'm far from a "newb" being in the industry professionally since the early 80's. However, I know there is so much to learn that no one can know it all. I started my thread in the "...new to the business" part because it's a "newb" question, so to speak.

Like I've mentioned several times already, both in this post and others, I think I know most all the answers, BUT NOT all the answers... and in so asking, I thought maybe I could learn more. Instead I get criticism and bs, etc, instead of just a plain answer without all the hoopla. LOL! Whatever. I had hoped to learn something extra I could take back and tell these guys here locally that their spiking live pruning is wrong. 

Thanks for your reply.

==========================================

Here's a carpenter's axiom... "Measure twice, cut once." To those who haven't learned here and on other posts of mine...

"Read TWICE, reply once", because if you don't you may be mistaken in my question, etc. Thanks!

An unusual thread for sure. Maybe being a pro and asking "newb" questions here is not the thing to do? Don't know but the replies have been less than stellar by far.

Take care,

*Stih*lRockin'


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## SecondGenMonkey (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm gonna ignore the bovine fecal matter in the thread and just give my answer.

Wounds invite disease. Spikes pick up a ton of bacteria and viruses. Don't use them unless you are felling.

Even if you just cleaned them, you're unnecessarily jamming bacteria from the bark into the cambium and inviting rot to developed.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk


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## BC WetCoast (Nov 23, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> I'm gonna ignore the bovine fecal matter in the thread and just give my answer.
> 
> Wounds invite disease. Spikes pick up a ton of bacteria and viruses. Don't use them unless you are felling.
> 
> ...



Bacteria doesn't develop rot, fungi does.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Nov 23, 2013)

True, bacteria just feeds on the sugars and creates a nice environment for fungi spores to develop.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk


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## capetrees (Dec 7, 2013)

jefflovstrom said:


> It is true I forget to take my man-suit off after work sometimes


 
You wear a man suit and forget to take it off? What's underneath??


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## Steve Voss (Dec 7, 2013)

ok, so the first two things that anyone ever learned me about climbing was

Don't use your climbing line as a rigging line

Don't use your spikes unless the tree is dead or your removing the tree completely.

I guess because I am a newbie I don't ask for more than common sense answers.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 9, 2013)

Steve Voss said:


> ok, so the first two things that anyone ever learned me about climbing was
> 
> Don't use your climbing line as a rigging line
> 
> ...



Same here. I read about the wound/bacteria/fungi relationship in my study guide and from a guy at Fairchild tropical garden that does workshops I attend.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk


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## La taupe (Dec 9, 2013)

I always wear spikes, pruning or not, I've seen and worked on trees in London that have been topped or thinned or generally worked on dozens of times by blokes in spikes, still going strong, they're trees not baby pandas.
oh and I often use the other end of my climbing line for light lowering.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 9, 2013)

Spiked Palm tree (coconut).
Palms don't compartmentalize like true trees. Its not guaranteed that this will happen, but not uncommon to find a rotted out Palm that's got spike marks all over it.
One neighborhood lost a ton of trees to a guy stealing coconuts with dirty spikes on, spread some disease. Most cases look like the spike brings insects, then peckers and finally they just start rotting out. WAS supposed to trim this one today but decided to take it out instead because it's leaning towards the house and over a commonly used walkway.






Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 9, 2013)

La taupe said:


> I always wear spikes, pruning or not, I've seen and worked on trees in London that have been topped or thinned or generally worked on dozens of times by blokes in spikes, still going strong, they're trees not baby pandas.
> oh and I often use the other end of my climbing line for light lowering.


Troll, looking to start drama. Wont happen............. guud bye


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## La taupe (Dec 9, 2013)

No not a troll, just telling the truth.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 9, 2013)

La taupe said:


> No not a troll, just telling the truth.



Don't work in Miami Dade. You'll get fined into ruin. Lots of lawn guys get away with it for a while but the county guys will roam around looking for that, being as how it's an illegal practice here.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk


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## La taupe (Dec 9, 2013)

Never really going to be a problem, but thanks for the heads up.


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## treesmith (Dec 9, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Another reason not to spike prunes, it exposes you for what ya really are.
> 
> If you spike a prune, your a hack, simple as that........


Couldn't agree more 

Sent from my GT-I9210T


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 10, 2013)

Bzzzzzzzzzzz bzzzzzzzzzz *chop* *chop* *chop* whiiiiiirrrrrrr! Circle saw, machete time!

This is not a signature.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 10, 2013)

La taupe said:


> No not a troll, just telling the truth.


Well then your a hack who tells the truth, better than a troll?, hmmmm, good question. Why are you here then? This is Arboristsite, not buzz or hackworld.


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## La taupe (Dec 10, 2013)

Because I work all day on trees, and have done for years, I can understand the logic behind it but I don't think a few spike marks is going to kill a tree. 
On utility arb blokes run up trees in spikes every few years to no detriment.
Sure I'm going to get stick, all the guys with letters after their name will look down their nose and call me names, I really don't care.
You don't have to jam 'em in at every opportunity, you still branch walk and all the fancy stuff, they're just handy sometimes for awkward bits.
Rest assured I am not by any means alone. 
Ohhhh the horror!!!!!!


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 10, 2013)

Nah, you aren't nearly alone. All the Haitian and Mexican lawn services down here have a spiker too. They make me some good hatracks to remove and plenty of mysteriously dead Palm trees.

sent using logic and reason from a device of witchcraft.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 11, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Because I work all day on trees, and have done for years, I can understand the logic behind it but I don't think a few spike marks is going to kill a tree.
> On utility arb blokes run up trees in spikes every few years to no detriment.
> Sure I'm going to get stick, all the guys with letters after their name will look down their nose and call me names, I really don't care.
> You don't have to jam 'em in at every opportunity, you still branch walk and all the fancy stuff, they're just handy sometimes for awkward bits.
> ...




Maybe in England the utility arbs prune on spikes, not done here anymore, written in the trimming contracts.

New word for you to learn today. CODIT Look it up. It was created by a fellow named Alex Shigo. You may want to read one of his books (if you know how to read).


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 11, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Because I work all day on trees, and have done for years, I can understand the logic behind it but I don't think a few spike marks is going to kill a tree.
> On utility arb blokes run up trees in spikes every few years to no detriment.
> Sure I'm going to get stick, all the guys with letters after their name will look down their nose and call me names, I really don't care.
> You don't have to jam 'em in at every opportunity, you still branch walk and all the fancy stuff, they're just handy sometimes for awkward bits.
> ...


Well...........at least your a honest hack, guess we need guys like you to show others what not to do. Since it is pretty obvious that you want a reaction, why don't you tell us what other hackish things ya do so we can get it out of the way. BTW, there is detriment,and you know this or you wouldn't have posted, like ya said, you just don't care.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 11, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Well...........at least your a honest hack, guess we need guys like you to show others what not to do. Since it is pretty obvious that you want a reaction, why don't you tell us what other hackish things ya do so we can get it out of the way. BTW, there is detriment,and you know this or you wouldn't have posted, like ya said, you just don't care.


If you cut the top half off of all the leads I hear it sprouts back real nice.

sent using logic and reason from a device of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 11, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Well...........at least your a honest hack, guess we need guys like you to show others what not to do. Since it is pretty obvious that you want a reaction, why don't you tell us what other hackish things ya do so we can get it out of the way. BTW, there is detriment,and you know this or you wouldn't have posted, like ya said, you just don't care.


Sure there's so detriment, Most everything you do up there to a healthy tree is of detriment, be it a reduction thinning or whatever.
I care in the sense that if all of my clients trees died I'd have some disgruntled people to deal with, but, guess what? they don't.
I just don't see that it's worth wringing your hands over some small damage that is of no consequence.
Well, anyway, let's see...hackish things I do.... like I said I use the tail end of my rope for light lowering, that, I genuinely feel is a handy skill to have, usually do my own lowering by cutting stubs and using the friction so my groundy has two free hands.
Those are the things I do that I feel are valid. Other things are a bit naughty (safety wise) so I wouldn't say.
I guess I wanted a reaction, why else does anyone post anything on this or any forum, including Twitter FB et al?
I feel that often these forums are overpopulated by rather worthy sorts who scoff at any practice that predates their time.


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## La taupe (Dec 11, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> If you cut the top half off of all the leads I hear it sprouts back real nice.
> 
> sent using logic and reason from a device of witchcraft.


Species dependent of course. That's another beef of mine, a lot of the "best practice"
Blurb fails to take into account the way differ trees react to pruning.
Saying you should prune a Poplar in the same way as a Beech is like applying the same veterinary procedure to Hippo and a Hyena.


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## La taupe (Dec 11, 2013)

BC WetCoast said:


> Maybe in England the utility arbs prune on spikes, not done here anymore, written in the trimming contracts.
> 
> New word for you to learn today. CODIT Look it up. It was created by a fellow named Alex Shigo. You may want to read one of his books (if you know how to read).


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## La taupe (Dec 11, 2013)

Yeah sure, did it at college


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 11, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Species dependent of course. That's another beef of mine, a lot of the "best practice"
> Blurb fails to take into account the way differ trees react to pruning.
> Saying you should prune a Poplar in the same way as a Beech is like applying the same veterinary procedure to Hippo and a Hyena.



True. Fruit trees are fine to hatrack down here If done with the intent of continuing to keep the tree low and easy to pick. Avacado trees are regularly cut to a three foot stump and most mangos are no taller than about 10-15feet.

sent using logic and reason from a device of witchcraft.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 15, 2013)

Sure, there are trees that have been spiked, topped and mutilated that have gone on and survived. The idea is to give the tree the best chance, to do the least amount of damage while you are in it. You do this because you want to be a good steward of the land, well we do, not you. By sticking to the proven standards, you give your clients tree, the best possible outcome. Even then, you cannot guarantee the success, just likelihood of it. Reducing the amount of wounds in a tree reduces the chances of a bad guy getting in. But, that is only for those who give a chit. You, and hackers like you, don't care. That is the difference between us and u. Guys like you are just worried about the coin and getting it as easy as possible. I like coin, but I don't want to earn it by doing crap work. Punching a baby boy in the face, may not kill him, he will probably recover and live on to grow old, that does not mean it is ok to do it. Stabbing a old lady in the leg with a ice pick may wound her, but she is still going to be able to walk, again, does not mean its OK to do it. Spiking a old oak, hurts the tree, no argument possible, it is proven, many many times over. It may live a long time after, but is is weaker as a whole than it was before you did it. So it lives on and you think, "those guys are fools" and you continue to do it because the tree is still alive, then after several years it is dead, well, you spiked it years ago, so it wasn't you that did it. Actually you helped quit a bit. Every little wound that a spike makes is another wound the tree is trying to compartmentalize, taking energy away from other vital functions. Add that to proper pruning wounds, in your case flush cuts, peels and stubs, overtime, that had a huge affect on the over health of the tree. Each time it had to compartmentalize a wound, it loses valuable space to store food over winter, eventually, it has compartmentalized so many wounds that it does not have enough space to store enough food to activate buds in the spring, it may do some, but not all. This is the back end of a downward spiral that gains speed at the end. A weak tree is a easy target. One that you created. Every wound adds up, that is why it is important to keep the wounds to a minimum as much as possible. It may not get a bad guy right away, entering the wound that you created, pruning or a spike wound. But each hit, adds up over time. 
All trees react differently to pruning, that is nothing new. That does not mean one tree likes to be spiked more than another. But you already know this, but still do it anyway. Which in most eyes, is worse than the guy who was taught by uncle bubba and actually thinks he is doing it right, he has a excuse, he is ignorant. Cant get mad at someone who is dumb, for doing something dumb. But the guy who knows better, but does it anyways because he is lazy, well that's just a whole other level of hackery, so.....I dub thee, Super Hack.


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## La taupe (Dec 15, 2013)

Well, sorry about the late reply I was out punching baby boys in the face, I've got 5 minutes before I leave for an afternoon of putting ice picks in granny's legs.
I'm joking of course but I find your similes frankly ridiculous. These are trees you know, plants.
You can spin the line that any, or a significant number, of spiked trees will die but it's simply not true.
At no point did I say I flush cut and leave rips.
"Good steward of the land"...... thanks for the laugh.
I dub thee...super pompous.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 15, 2013)

Woah! Is this gonna turn into a Capitan Planet episode? Do I need to find Mati and his little monkey friend?

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## NYTREECLIMBER (Dec 15, 2013)

You can't fix STUPID!


Sent from my I phone 9


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## Treefreak (Dec 15, 2013)

kyle goddard said:


> Well that sums it up.
> 
> What do you clean your cutting tools with?



Kyle, I use isopropyl alcohol, on my handsaw its cheap, sterilizes and removes pine sap/resin. horticultural oil to lube it.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 16, 2013)

La taupe said:


> At no point did I say I flush cut and leave rips.



My bad, just assumed. So, do you make proper pruning cuts?


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## La taupe (Dec 16, 2013)

Fwiw yes.
I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
So I did it.
Anyhow seeing as we're having fun I'd like your opinion on another taboo.
These days (at least in the UK) there's dogma about cutting to live growth in a reduction/reshape, it's an absolute no-no to leave a blind stub. 
IMO with certain species this is good procedure, talking Beech, veteran oaks cherries maybe.
But, and this harks back to my earlier comment about hyenas and hippos, with others like lime, hornbeam, pops and willow there will be such a strong flush of regrowth ,within weeks at certain times of the year, that you should cut to shape in preference to leaving odd length branches with a few leaves on the end to achieve a "natural look"
This obsession with naturalness in an urban environment puzzles me and from experience many clients as well who seem rather underwhelmed with results when the tree climber is expecting a round of applause.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Fwiw yes.
> I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
> I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
> I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
> ...


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2013)

I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,



Did you spike it?
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 16, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Fwiw yes.
> I had a client once for whom I was removing some lower branches off an oak,
> I did all the branch collar stuff and he looked at it and said "can you cut them flat to the trunk?"
> I gave him all the compartmentalisation info, he looked and thought and said "just do it anyway"
> ...



I don't know what to say without sounding like a bully, so I won't say nothing.
Jeff opcorn:


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## treesmith (Dec 16, 2013)

That's because we're supposed to know what we're doing and they don't. 
There are times when the answer should be "no, I'm sorry but I can't do that" I've said that myself to customers over the years. I use what the owner wants as just a guideline not the overall pruning plan. Flush cuts are just **** whichever way you look at them


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 16, 2013)

treesmith said:


> That's because we're supposed to know what we're doing and they don't.
> There are times when the answer should be "no, I'm sorry but I can't do that" I've said that myself to customers over the years. I use what the owner wants as just a guideline not the overall pruning plan. Flush cuts are just **** whichever way you look at them


I've only been trimming for just over three years, but I've lost count of how many people I've told no. No, I won't cut your 60ft tree to a 20ft trunk. No, I won't make your black olive into a giant tuna can. No, I won't make that cut flush against the trunk and no, I don't need spikes for your piddly 40ft Palm. Often explaining why not satisfies them... or I just pull out a copy of the county and state codes and show them the fine for such operations.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> I've only been trimming for just over three years, but I've lost count of how many people I've told no. No, I won't cut your 60ft tree to a 20ft trunk. No, I won't make your black olive into a giant tuna can. No, I won't make that cut flush against the trunk and no, I don't need spikes for your piddly 40ft Palm. Often explaining why not satisfies them... or I just pull out a copy of the county and state codes and show them the fine for such operations.
> 
> sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.






So you've been trimming for three years and you've LOST COUNT of the people to whom you've said no.
That throws a bit of light on it. I can just picture you now driving round talking down to clients, telling them NO, then getting a little warm feeling inside 'cos you feel a bit superior. 

I have (very) occasionally turned down work over the years if 1. It's ridiculous 2.it can be seen from the road 3. I have loads of work 4. I didn't like the client 5. There is a Tree Preservation Order on it and the client wanted me to exceed what was permitted. Otherwise it's their money, I'll suggest alternatives but he who pays the piper.....
It was the guy's own garden, his trees and that's what he wanted. I told him the reasons why it was not what is normally done and he said do it anyway. If I didn't do it someone else would have.
Did I wear spikes? Don't know. it was a long time ago, probably.
Jeff, you don't want to be a bully? Seriously, don't flatter yourself.
Ps. Are any of you worthy experts going to address my questions on pruning styles on different species?


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## treesmith (Dec 17, 2013)

What would you consider ridiculous if spiking and flush cuts are fair game?


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

La taupe said:


> So you've been trimming for three years and you've LOST COUNT of the people to whom you've said no.
> That throws a bit of light on it. I can just picture you now driving round talking down to clients, telling them NO, then getting a little warm feeling inside 'cos you feel a bit superior.
> 
> I have (very) occasionally turned down work over the years if 1. It's ridiculous 2.it can be seen from the road 3. I have loads of work 4. I didn't like the client 5. There is a Tree Preservation Order on it and the client wanted me to exceed what was permitted. Otherwise it's their money, I'll suggest alternatives but he who pays the piper.....
> ...



No, I lost count because people want me to butcher trees. About 80% OF my work comes due to the high rating we have on some site called Angies List and I don't need people posting pics of butchered trees with my name on them. Oh, and I don't feel like getting sued because I made a header cut and some kid fell out of the tree trying to climb it using suckers. There was a case down here where that happened already. An arborist was hired to evaluate and trim some trees on a property That was for sale. He completed the work and said all was good. The day The new owners moved in their son climbed one of the trees and fell out because he grabbed a witches broom. Realtor and arborist both got hit with $1m lawsuits.

Reasons to refuse work?
1.Understandable.
2. What are you doing that you don't want people seeing you from the road? I love driving by a place and seeing my work.
3. If it's worth my time we can work out a schedule.
4. If you pay on time and listen to the evaluation team (three arborist might know a bit more than one home owner) then I don't care if you're an orange guido homo with bad breath and a nasally voice. Just stand back and let me work.
5. Its in our contracts that we don't remove any more than 25-30% of any tree that's not coming down and that protected trees are treated in accordance with the law. If you don't like it, we won't even finish the estimate.

Pruning can be species dependent but there a VERY few trees here that react well to being hat racked, spiked and flush cut so that pretty much means we don't do it.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

treesmith said:


> What would you consider ridiculous if spiking and flush cuts are fair game?


Ridiculous hmmmm, the most recent was a woman who wanted all the inner leaders of an umbrella pine removed to leave a "Y" in truth I didn't like her anyway.
The flush cut thing I already explained.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

Oh, yeah... I won't strip out trees either. Lion tail or otherwise. I'll thin it, But no strippers work for us.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> No, I lost count because people want me to butcher trees. About 80% OF my work comes due to the high rating we have on some site called Angies List and I don't need people posting pics of butchered trees with my name on them. Oh, and I don't feel like getting sued because I made a header cut and some kid fell out of the tree trying to climb it using suckers. There was a case down here where that happened already. An arborist was hired to evaluate and trim some trees on a property That was for sale. He completed the work and said all was good. The day The new owners moved in their son climbed one of the trees and fell out because he grabbed a witches broom. Realtor and arborist both got hit with $1m lawsuits.
> 
> Reasons to refuse work?
> 1.Understandable.
> ...


Number 2 severe reductions on trees (in accordance in the clients specific demands)
Note, I'm talking about Oaks etc, giving a lime or poplar a right muppeting whilst initially brutal will cause no lasting harm and will come back a treat.
Number 4. Around here, (South West France) nobody is going to pay for an evaluation team.
Number 5. Do you not have pollards there?


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 17, 2013)

From France, that explains it all. It is obvious that you are here just to cause problems. Wont do bad work cause it can be seen from the road! So if it was in a backyard, it would be OK? Just trying to understand your logic. At first, I was going to try and convert ya. But I see that would be a wasted effort. Not sure what your intent is, coming to a Arborist forum and trying to argue about things that are not negotiable. So then I go back to thinking your a troll. You obviously have read a little, but not enough. Topping or what you call pollarding, does harm a tree. If you are doing grape vines or a tree to produce a fruit or tender wood, whateves. But oak or poplar,that's topping and you suck if ya do it. But, again. You know this and are just trying to get a reaction. Well, keep going and you will get one.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 17, 2013)

Yeah, he is just a hack,,
Jeff


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## treesmith (Dec 17, 2013)

I worked a little in coppice and seen lots of pollards. Certain species are tolerant of pollarding, others not so much. There have been many customers remarking how healthy their trees were with all the extra growth the last year or two and then it dies suddenly, rapid excessive growth can be a good sign of a trees last hurrah or at least trying desperately not to kark it.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

treesmith said:


> I worked a little in coppice and seen lots of pollards. Certain species are tolerant of pollarding, others not so much. There have been many customers remarking how healthy their trees were with all the extra growth the last year or two and then it dies suddenly, rapid excessive growth can be a good sign of a trees last hurrah or at least trying desperately not to kark it.


Quite so.
There is a line of poplars near my old house in England, 20 or so of them 10 ft apart, now, to my knowledge they were "topped" literally cut in half about 25 years ago by a guy I know, so they must have been 25 to 30 years old minimum then, every single one of them came back strongly. Just before I moved out here (10 years ago)the owner got me to do it again, back to the old cuts, easy peasy. Now I was back last year and they are all as good as gold with strong regrowth.
Now at the moment they are maybe 55 years old and have another haircut or two ahead of them. Probably too big a time gap to be considered Pollarding but it's in the ballpark.
If they had been left to their own devices they would be far to big for their situation (both in regards to each other and the houses) so in other words they would have been felled and removed, and the owner would have lost his windbreak/screen. Perfectly good tree management. But considered hacking by some no matter the species, location or other factors.
Ps So tree smith knows something about Pollarding and coppicing any one else?


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 17, 2013)

We know lots about it and it has its place, the urban environment is not one of them. If a tree is maintained properly, it can get as big as it wants, right next to a house. But people get scared and a hacker shows, says "I can fix it, it just needs to be topped". So, like the tool that he is, he goes and gives it a nice hat rack, it grows back, then it is done again and again, reducing to old cuts. Over a few years, it forms a big nasty pollarding head at the stub with a ton of bad attachments, creating a hazard and liability, usually over a side walk or street or worse, in a back yard, ya know, where no one can see your bad work, where the little kids play under the tree with large epi's, that will start dropping. The hacker, thinks he did a good job, the HO knows no better as he is relying on bubba to do whats right. But bubba, what is right by him is to do the bare minimum and get the most, lie to the HO about the health of the tree and moves on to the next. This is not perfectly good tree management, it is Domestic Tree Abuse. Your arguments are invalid, your trying to sell a turds to plumbers. We are not interested in buying your BS.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

"The urban environment is not the place for pollards" genuinely laughable nonsense, it's exactly the place (clearly you know very little about it)
"A tree can get as big as it wants, right next to a house" unbelievable and dangerous rubbish.
There is a growing school of thought that completely rejects any form of reduction, or at the most accepts only the lightest tickle with a thin, I suspect this comes at the college level and filters it's way into professional organizations.
Remove or Leave is a term I've heard.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Number 2 severe reductions on trees (in accordance in the clients specific demands)
> Note, I'm talking about Oaks etc, giving a lime or poplar a right muppeting whilst initially brutal will cause no lasting harm and will come back a treat.
> Number 4. Around here, (South West France) nobody is going to pay for an evaluation team.
> Number 5. Do you not have pollards there?



4. We send one arborist to do the estimates. An estimate includes an evaluation as far as general tree health and practicality of what the customer desires are. It's free.
An actual full evaluation is a different story. We do safety and health evaluations for the county, private schools and businesses. That's a by the hour rate because we may evaluate 50-80 trees in a day and writing up full evaluations on each one with our suggestions and concerns for each tree.
We also do "failure summaries" for insurance companies if a tree fails and they need a second opinion as to what caused the failure. Often we find its because of topping, flush cuts, neglected co-dominates, root damage or disease, most notably gamma derma that a previous arborist either failed to notice or notify the customer of. As a matter of fact the last failure we inspected was caused by a trimmer spiking in with gamma infected spurs. Tree failed about three years later with gamma in almost every spike wound,

2&5: Yes, we call those hat racks. They are highly illegal.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

All very plausible except its spelt ganoderma (and don't blame auto correct)
Which sort of renders the rest of your post worthless.
Better luck next time though!


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

La taupe said:


> All very plausible except its spelt ganoderma (and don't blame auto correct)
> Which sort of renders the rest of your post worthless.
> Better luck next time though!








No, but I can blame distraction, horrible misspelling and auto correct.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 17, 2013)

You really are screwed up. Oh well, cant say I am overly upset about it, hackers come and go. You are no different, cept ur from France. Been there, it smells of chit, guess it goes with the territory. When ya live in a place that has open sewers, guess it should only make sense that the most arrogant of people are full of chit too.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

Hey! I'm arrogant! And I only poop once a day!

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 17, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> You really are screwed up. Oh well, cant say I am overly upset about it, hackers come and go. You are no different, cept ur from France. Been there, it smells of chit, guess it goes with the territory. When ya live in a place that has open sewers, guess it should only make sense that the most arrogant of people are full of chit too.





sgreanbeans said:


> You really are screwed up. Oh well, cant say I am overly upset about it, hackers come and go. You are no different, cept ur from France. Been there, it smells of chit, guess it goes with the territory. When ya live in a place that has open sewers, guess it should only make sense that the most arrogant of people are full of chit too.



I can see I rather overestimated you.


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## Zale (Dec 17, 2013)

La taupe- using spikes to prune a tree indicates a lack of ability to climb or plain ignorance. I could be wrong but I'm going to guess you are on the heavy side and find it difficult to balance your load on a limb with just your feet. You've just chosen the lazy way. IMO.


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## treesmith (Dec 17, 2013)

This is the 101 section for arborists, populated by experienced arborists helping less experienced arborists on an arborist website. Arborists should like trees. I go by industry best practice, regulations and experience, I would say we are open to new ideas but not ones that we know are wrong. Yes, some trees TOLERATE pollarding/topping and some trees tolerate spiking, the same way some people tolerate amputations and gunshot wounds. Just because they don't die doesn't mean it's good for them. I have yet to see a pollard that I like the look of even though I understand why they're done, London plane tolerates pollarding but any tree is happier if it doesn't have the **** hacked out of it, yes there are many pollarded trees but could it be done another way? Depending on species, probably. I have a friend who is a boxer, he can tolerate a good kicking, does that mean that he needs a good kicking regularly? Maybe I should organise a Maori to mangle him once a year or so and then tell everyone how good it was for him and how good he looks a year later, just in time for his next kicking. As far as I understand it original Pollarding is Coppicing but 2m/6'off the ground to stop beasts eating the regrowth, they were both used for producing a constant stream of timber of all sizes for uses from walking sticks to fence panels and building materials. If you go over a certain stem size then the chances of healthy regrowth diminish and you can lose the tree.
I worked on an old estate garden in Sussex where half a dozen apple trees and a yew were hacked in half by a moron, they survived and grew on, years later I am pruning them and what do I find? The apples are in beautiful health, although covered in epicormic shoots, the big problem is because they were topped the rot had started spreading all the way down the inside of the trunk, in fact one was so hollow and full of compost that I planted trailing flowers in all the flush cut rot holes up the trunk, now it's just a matter of time before they fail and for no other reason than some muppet had an idea. The Yew was the same but less advanced. Maybe the people here who's responses you don't like have first hand knowledge of why we prune the way we do. I hate climbing old regrowth on a badly pruned/topped tree, they're dangerous, fact. They also look like crap. Didn't Shigo talk about a trees dignity?


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 17, 2013)

You ever seen a pollard after a hurricane?

Here, learning material...
http://southfloridahorticulture.com/hat-rack-horrors/

http://www.merchantcircle.com/blogs...is-it-illegal-in-the-State-of-Florida-/394711

http://www.fairchildgarden.org/Articles/id/580/read/Preparing-Your-Yard-for-a-Storm/

If not hat racked every time a hurricane gets too close for comfort all those weakly attached branches get nicely twisted and snapped off. Often creating a nice flying debris field.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 18, 2013)

Zale said:


> La taupe- using spikes to prune a tree indicates a lack of ability to climb or plain ignorance. I could be wrong but I'm going to guess you are on the heavy side and find it difficult to balance your load on a limb with just your feet. You've just chosen the lazy way. IMO.


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## La taupe (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm just big boned that's all.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 18, 2013)

Lol

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 18, 2013)

La taupe said:


> I can see I rather overestimated you.



Yeah, well, your attempt to make us believe that your are some hacker from France was fun...........MOLE. Going to start checking IP's to see who you really are. Or ya, could just fess up. It would be faster, but with the same result. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 18, 2013)

Danno? Is it you, trying to guess who would pick that up, La Tuape, and use it for a screen name, niooooce. Going to try and guess first. the IP thing will take all day.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 18, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Danno? Is it you, trying to guess who would pick that up, La Tuape, and use it for a screen name, niooooce. Going to try and guess first. the IP thing will take all day.


Can't you just pull his general address and ping it? Should give you a general area or take you to a known proxy.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 18, 2013)

That is beyond me, pinging and all that!


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 18, 2013)

Ah, pretty simple actually. Just check the ip address' his posts come from and you can do one or two things. Either ping it from one of the many sites (just Google ping ip) or simply Google the address its self.
If he's behind a proxy or firewall you can monitor his ip while he's online and backtrack.

If you need help I'm sure my friends at unleashedprepaids.com will be happy to help, blast and I have dealt with a few unfriendlies over the years.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 18, 2013)

treesmith said:


> This is the 101 section for arborists, populated by experienced arborists helping less experienced arborists on an arborist website. Arborists should like trees. I go by industry best practice, regulations and experience, I would say we are open to new ideas but not ones that we know are wrong. Yes, some trees TOLERATE pollarding/topping and some trees tolerate spiking, the same way some people tolerate amputations and gunshot wounds. Just because they don't die doesn't mean it's good for them. I have yet to see a pollard that I like the look of even though I understand why they're done, London plane tolerates pollarding but any tree is happier if it doesn't have the **** hacked out of it, yes there are many pollarded trees but could it be done another way? Depending on species, probably. I have a friend who is a boxer, he can tolerate a good kicking, does that mean that he needs a good kicking regularly? Maybe I should organise a Maori to mangle him once a year or so and then tell everyone how good it was for him and how good he looks a year later, just in time for his next kicking. As far as I understand it original Pollarding is Coppicing but 2m/6'off the ground to stop beasts eating the regrowth, they were both used for producing a constant stream of timber of all sizes for uses from walking sticks to fence panels and building materials. If you go over a certain stem size then the chances of healthy regrowth diminish and you can lose the tree.
> I worked on an old estate garden in Sussex where half a dozen apple trees and a yew were hacked in half by a moron, they survived and grew on, years later I am pruning them and what do I find? The apples are in beautiful health, although covered in epicormic shoots, the big problem is because they were topped the rot had started spreading all the way down the inside of the trunk, in fact one was so hollow and full of compost that I planted trailing flowers in all the flush cut rot holes up the trunk, now it's just a matter of time before they fail and for no other reason than some muppet had an idea. The Yew was the same but less advanced. Maybe the people here who's responses you don't like have first hand knowledge of why we prune the way we do. I hate climbing old regrowth on a badly pruned/topped tree, they're dangerous, fact. They also look like crap. Didn't Shigo talk about a trees dignity?



Ok I won't cover every point but let's pick a few.
Why do people anthropomorphise trees all the time? Your friend being a boxer etc has diddly squat to do with Pollarding trees. It's silly to make the comparison.
Trees are not happy or sad again they are not people or animals. 
Plane and limes are planted precisely because the will tolerate heavy pruning or Pollarding. In an urban situation if you want a tree of say 10 mtrs you let it get to 10 mtrs then after a bit prune it wait a few years prune it again, why is that so bad? As long as you've picked the right species there's no problem.
Yews don't like to be hit hard, we all know that. Nothing new in that, they do make good hedges and topiary or is that ruining their dignity!
Pruning fruit Trees has little to do with what most people do on here.
Finally, Shigo broke new ground in tree biology sure, but why is his every utterance treated like the Word of the Prophet? "Didn't Shigo talk about tree dignity?" So what? 
Ps where in Sussex were you? My home county.


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## La taupe (Dec 18, 2013)

sgreanbeans said:


> Yeah, well, your attempt to make us believe that your are some hacker from France was fun...........MOLE. Going to start checking IP's to see who you really are. Or ya, could just fess up. It would be faster, but with the same result. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.



How did you find out about MOLE? Oh yeah there's a picture of one right there!
I'll let you have your fun, I think you'll be surprised!


SecondGenMonkey said:


> Ah, pretty simple actually. Just check the ip address' his posts come from and you can do one or two things. Either ping it from one of the many sites (just Google ping ip) or simply Google the address its self.
> If he's behind a proxy or firewall you can monitor his ip while he's online and backtrack.
> 
> If you need help I'm sure my friends at unleashedprepaids.com will be happy to help, blast and I have dealt with a few unfriendlies over the years.
> ...


Who's being unfriendly? I've could go back on these thread and count the insults and casual racism directed towards me, no sweat, I knew I wasn't going to be making a lot of friends with this stance. The worst things I've said are "Nonsense" and "laughable" hardly the work of a troll is it?


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 18, 2013)

La taupe said:


> How did you find out about MOLE? Oh yeah there's a picture of one right there!
> I'll let you have your fun, I think you'll be surprised!
> 
> Who's being unfriendly? I've could go back on these thread and count the insults and casual racism directed towards me, no sweat, I knew I wasn't going to be making a lot of friends with this stance. The worst things I've said are "Nonsense" and "laughable" hardly the work of a troll is it?



Sorry, bad choice of words. That's just what we call people we suspect may not be who they say or are likely banned users under a different name.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 18, 2013)

No biggy.


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## treesmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Crowborough, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Findon, Heathfield, finished at Plumpton in 2001, born in New Forest, Hampshire though, dad's side have been in the woods for centuries and mums side were from Chatham, Kent. As we are both English, we are technically allowed to dislike the French, as people they are beautiful but as a country they suck ass. I think the boxer example is applicable, a tree gets cut, it loses a large chunk of its balanced system and it goes into shock, it reacts by growing in an unnatural exaggerated fashion and just as it gets its health back it is cut again, just as my friend would recover in time for a good kicking. I understand pollarding and the why's and wherefores but I just don't like it, it's not natural for a tree to lose all its branches on a regular basis. The old style Coppicing and pollarding was different in as much as it was farmed and it wasn't allowed to get to full grown tree size.


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## treesmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Pressed button too early. The problem I see is that a lot of trees unsuitable even for street life get the topping/pollarding treatment and certainly not to the same standard as a properly pollarded lime/plane, I've had the pleasure of climbing topped euro Ash - Fraxinus Excelsior amongst others, a tree that can snap suddenly and climbing above the rotten attachments can be like Russian roulette, they flex so far and then Bang, add some snow, wind chill and a daytime temperature of -17°c (lived in Northern Scotland too) and you're asking for trouble, I wouldn't want that sort of tree anywhere near my house! I kind of agree that in certain positions for certain functions you can do whatever you want to a tree but is it still a tree? Hedge species can become trees but until they do they are a hedge, I've done topiary to beech, yew, laurel, espalier fruit trees etc, I've also worked alongside farmers who have a very functional view on trees and pruning. Take a tractor flail for example, they are vicious, don't leave nice cuts but I understand why they are used, most of the species in the hedge are capable of becoming trees but they're aren't, it's a hedge. Using a flail on a grown tree is just butchery. Yes, I've see it done and I was disgusted.
There was a line of lombardy(?) poplars (I think, tall skinny things) near West Malling research centre, a windbreak, they were topped pollarded to keep manageable and all it did was rot the stem from the top down and make them unstable. As others have said, there are better ways to prune trees for long term health and stability than pollarding/topping, pollarding can be an effective management technique on the right tree but that doesn't mean it is the best way and tends to be used now on previously pollarded trees only. I think it's far more important to put the right tree in the right place first time but that doesn't help with existing ones. 
If those fruit trees I mentioned been one of many species capable of serious growth you'd now be looking at a tree with a large column of rot that is supporting all the regrowth above it, pretty standard for topped trees. **** like that can kill people. And it's ugly. Being from Sussex you should know about tree dignity, you should spend time in an old Beech/Oak wood and breathe it in, listen to them, maybe it's a respect thing. 
BTW I wasn't referring to you when I said moron or muppet, that's reserved for people who knowingly hack trees without trying to find another way.


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## treesmith (Dec 18, 2013)

Found this underneath a badly pruned cypress today, absolute proof that bad pruning is damaging not just to trees but faeries too


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

East of me then,Horsham boy myself (rudgwick to be precise)
Just time before I set off to work to address the whole tree dignity stuff, yes I grew up in the woodlands of the Weald walking my dog, ferreting etc. that's the point you see, they are woods where trees can do their thing un hindered.
In gardens and the urban environment trees are there for our amenity, shade, sight screen, visual pleasure etc, and have been planted as such, if that means they cannot fulfill their potential size wise, so what? Trim them, if that means they don't live to be veterans so be it.
If a repeatedly trimmed pop lives to 60 (and provides shade or whatever for those years)rather than growing to 100 ft plus and falling to pieces after 90 years, which is not an option in a garden, well what's wrong with that?
All this talk about topped trees being dangerous to climb won't wash with me.
If you don't fancy it get a cherry picker.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 19, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Quite so.
> There is a line of poplars near my old house in England, 20 or so of them 10 ft apart, now, to my knowledge they were "topped" literally cut in half about 25 years ago by a guy I know, so they must have been 25 to 30 years old minimum then, every single one of them came back strongly. Just before I moved out here (10 years ago)the owner got me to do it again, back to the old cuts, easy peasy. Now I was back last year and they are all as good as gold with strong regrowth.
> Now at the moment they are maybe 55 years old and have another haircut or two ahead of them. Probably too big a time gap to be considered Pollarding but it's in the ballpark.
> If they had been left to their own devices they would be far to big for their situation (both in regards to each other and the houses) so in other words they would have been felled and removed, and the owner would have lost his windbreak/screen. Perfectly good tree management. But considered hacking by some no matter the species, location or other factors.
> Ps So tree smith knows something about Pollarding and coppicing any one else?




We have had a lot of natural black cottonwoods (a native poplar) topped around here in the past. You then get several new fast growing codom tops and a topping cut that rots very quickly. So now there are 40' codoms weakly attached to a top with significant rot. Can you say hazard tree? We have the same problem with alders and hemlocks.

You say you read at college. You must have read as much as the basketball players at the Univ of Kansas.


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

So re-top 'em. Below the rot if you like, then reassess in 5 or 10 years.
End of hazard.


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## treesmith (Dec 19, 2013)

Sorry, started a long winded rambling answer, too busy. If you did that in Australia you'd be fined heavily, only the council and utility are allowed to ruin trees here.


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## treesmith (Dec 19, 2013)

La taupe said:


> So re-top 'em. Below the rot if you like, then reassess in 5 or 10 years.
> End of hazard.


What if the homeowner has better things to do then waste money getting someone in? I helped on a massive poplar fresh out of college, 20' stem with IIRC 80'-90' multi stemmed regrowth, hollow at the bottom with two tree sized stems over gardens, nobody came back for that one and it was on council ground in a public space


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

treesmith said:


> What if the homeowner has better things to do then waste money getting someone in? I helped on a massive poplar fresh out of college, 20' stem with IIRC 80'-90' multi stemmed regrowth, hollow at the bottom with two tree sized stems over gardens, nobody came back for that one and it was on council ground in a public space


Well in a way it shows that regrowth is not as weak as some would suggest!
Whose to say what would have become of the tree had it have been left to its own devices.
We had a big storm here a few months back, cleared a lot of hung up and wind blown, made a few quid, mostly ash and pop, here's a few pics of a 25 to 30 mtr wind throw Pop I had to do, never been touched by human hand. Point is reduction in height, reduction in sail effect, less likely to end up on the deck. Sure, a management plan has to be in place, if it's done once it has to be done again.


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

treesmith said:


> Sorry, started a long winded rambling answer, too busy. If you did that in Australia you'd be fined heavily, only the council and utility are allowed to ruin trees here.


They'd already been done. What would you suggest?


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

Here's a weeping willow I saw next door today, old guy scalps himself every 3 years or so. Left alone not only would it become too big for its situation, the limbs would become so heavy it would start to break itself to bits.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 19, 2013)

Now it would, but with proper care and not being hat racked that could have been a beautiful tree

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> Now it would, but with proper care and not being hat racked that could have been a beautiful tree
> 
> sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


I'm curious, what would you describe as proper care to a weeping willow, next to a stream in a situation where you don't want it to dominate the garden, ie you want it to remain at approximately the size shown in the photo?


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 19, 2013)

Was it a preexisting tree? Or did the homeowner plant it?

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## La taupe (Dec 19, 2013)

Let's assume he planted it for the sake of this exercise.


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 19, 2013)

Plant a different tree, LOL.
Jk. 
Yearly reduction via proper cuts by up to 50% for the first ten years with a focus on preventing a lean toward the water. If codominate leads must be established encourage a wide spread between them using trimming and bracing methods (being careful to watch the braces so they don't become incorporated). Once a desired height is reached use a drop crotch method to maintain it and thin by 25-30% for the next 20-30 year's reducing the amount of canopy removal to about 15-20% once the tree is truly mature.
A weekly raising by a gardener with hand snips or (shudder) hedge trimmers can keep the vista and allow for access to flower beds without impacting the tree greatly.
It will eventually get pretty big, but remain maintainable and with thinning allow plenty of undergrowth.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## treesmith (Dec 19, 2013)

A smaller tree, as SGM said, can be controlled, it can be made into anything you want. My point above was that if the owner has a mature tree extensively chopped(which was all too common) a large percentage then tend to leave it until it HAS to be done. If it's in a farmers field far away from the public then whatever, chopping off trees halfway is a farmers speciality. If it's in a public place around people then it can become a very real problem. I have taken down more than my share of topped/badly pruned trees around houses, some belonging to farmers, some to people with no money, some to whom trees are just a nuisance. The tree has been topped and left for however many years until it becomes properly dangerous to the climber and whatever is underneath it. This year we turned up to remove a fractured Liquidamber, the owners had lived there only a few months, their 5ish year old daughters were on the trampoline. They decided to leave earlier than planned to go somewhere, within 5 minutes a neighbour phoned them in panic, their previously topped tree had decided to shed 40' of it's top straight through the trampoline, exactly where the children should still have been. Any tree near people needs to be pruned in a way that doesn't cause it to become dangerous if left. If a council with a properly organised tree department can leave a tree to become dangerous to the public then how can private owners with less money and less knowledge be expected to do better? Advertising spike pruning, flush cuts and topping on an international arborist 101 forum and then arguing about it, especially as we all know first hand that these practices can cause big problems just seems a little naive and silly, deliberate even. Think you've spent too much time in France. If one of your trees fails and kills someone because of the way you pruned it, however far in the future then it's your fault and you are liable. I don't think "it was already like it" will cut much slack. 
In certain places with certain trees you can do whatever you want, but please do not call yourself an arborist.


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## La taupe (Dec 20, 2013)

SecondGenMonkey said:


> Plant a different tree, LOL.
> Jk.
> Yearly reduction via proper cuts by up to 50% for the first ten years with a focus on preventing a lean toward the water. If codominate leads must be established encourage a wide spread between them using trimming and bracing methods (being careful to watch the braces so they don't become incorporated). Once a desired height is reached use a drop crotch method to maintain it and thin by 25-30% for the next 20-30 year's reducing the amount of canopy removal to about 15-20% once the tree is truly mature.
> A weekly raising by a gardener with hand snips or (shudder) hedge trimmers can keep the vista and allow for access to flower beds without impacting the tree greatly.
> ...



Firstly, and most importantly that won't work, clearly you have no idea now a willow like this grows next to water. It simply cannot be controlled like that.
Secondly, let's say this tree is 35 years old, your saying yearly work, formative pruning, the reductions,costing say 400 bucks plus bracing you say? So we are talking about around 90000 bucks to do a tree that the homeowner does to his perfect satisfaction at no cost every 3 years.
Plant a different tree? He wanted a weeping willow.


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## treesmith (Dec 20, 2013)

He honestly likes looking at a hairy stick? I'd prefer looking at a tree. He's a homeowner not an arborist. Why not plant a root grafted hybrid with smaller overall form instead of a fast growing large fragile split prone rot prone shoot forming water hog in the wrong place and then try to control it. What happens if he moves/dies and it doesn't get pruned for thirty years, then a young family buy it. Everyone loves picnics under a willow...


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## SecondGenMonkey (Dec 20, 2013)

La taupe said:


> Firstly, and most importantly that won't work, clearly you have no idea now a willow like this grows next to water. It simply cannot be controlled like that.
> Secondly, let's say this tree is 35 years old, your saying yearly work, formative pruning, the reductions,costing say 400 bucks plus bracing you say? So we are talking about around 90000 bucks to do a tree that the homeowner does to his perfect satisfaction at no cost every 3 years.
> Plant a different tree? He wanted a weeping willow.



I did not mean yearly for the full life of the tree, just the first ten years, when the trim should take an hour or less (about 250usd) and bracing only if needed to help prevent the initial leader growth from forming dangerously close together. After that I forgot to mention that the trims should be bi-annual, but I figured that was a given.
I assume it will grow at a similar rate to a comparable tree down here where our water table is about six to eight feet below surface in most places.
Insisting on planting a willow that you know will be expensive to maintain over the course of 35-50 years and hacking it into a troll doll is like buying a Ferrari and running it on low grade fuel and oil and having a spray can paint job. Congratulations, you own a 100,000usd car that has constant problems and runs like crap. The nature of the tree needs to be taken into account at the time of planting.

Like I said, it WILL get big. That's just the way the species is, hacking it won't change that. And if that pic is of 2-3 years worth of hat rack growth I don't see it growing any faster with proper pruning.

sent using logic and reason from a device forged of witchcraft.


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## sgreanbeans (Dec 20, 2013)

Guys, do not feed the troll. You do not need to explain it to him, he knows he is wrong. I let him go until now, so that way he could say his spill. Now that he has, and it is clear of what he is. A hacker, with hacker arguments and clearly no real understanding of how trees grow and how to care for them.


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## treesmith (Dec 20, 2013)

No worries


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