# Tell me about Axes....



## PLMCRZY (Nov 15, 2014)

I need a good one. I looked at lowes and home depot today, there are many shapes and sizes. I just need one to split wood decently. I heard about looking at the grain in the handle..... Why? What should i look for exactly? Id like to spend no more then $50


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## aarolar (Nov 15, 2014)

Let me go ahead and get it out of the way....


Fiskars X27


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## gunnusmc03 (Nov 15, 2014)

What kind of wood do you split primarily?


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## Philbert (Nov 15, 2014)

Or, if you really want to _learn_ about axes:



Actually pretty interesting if you are into this stuff.

Philbert


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 15, 2014)

gunnusmc03 said:


> What kind of wood do you split primarily?


Around here is oak mainly. But we have mesquite, cedar, hackberry, and the occasional fir.

I try to cut oak mainly, but lately ill take whatever.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 15, 2014)

aarolar said:


> Let me go ahead and get it out of the way....
> 
> 
> Fiskars X27


Ya i like those, but id have to order it.


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## aarolar (Nov 15, 2014)

Fiskars X27


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## unclemoustache (Nov 15, 2014)

Fiskars is the best axe, but I still prefer a maul. I'll just keep my mouth shut about what kind of handle my maul has, in case Whitespider sees this.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 15, 2014)

Whats the difference????


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

An _Axe_ is designed to chop wood. A _Maul_ is designed to split wood. Different shaped head, although, a lot of wood has been split with axes.

Philbert


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## 4seasons (Nov 16, 2014)

Quick summary of what everyone is going to say:
1.Axes are not for splitting, that is a job for mauls.
2.Big box stores carry cheep Chinese axes/mauls.
Both of these points are valid.
You are already getting the X27 guys pounding their favorite. (I have one too and it is a good tool but not the best in any category, but could very well be the best compromise in all categories.)
You will also get some comment about fiberglass handles being tougher, and wood handles taking more shock away from your hands. While true that fiberglass handles are stronge, the epoxy that holds fiberglass handles in breaks down and the head will work loose. (Very quickly on cheep mauls) And the shock that a good hickory handle takes out of your hands will quickly destroy a cheep hickory handle.
You will also get some guys that ignore your $50 price limit and start talking about their favorite axe/maul. It does not matter if it is a Gransfors or Sthil they are out of your price range. They may be nice tools but if you can't spend the dough what does it matter? Even the Fiskars is right on the edge of your price.
If you want to spend less than $50 you will have to shop in flee markets and yard sales to find a good tool. With wood handle you want the grain to be in the direction of the strike. You also want the outer wood (not heart wood) on a hickory handle. If there is some dark wood in a hickory handle or if the lines in the wood run perpendicular to the cutting edge you don't want it. Of course any wood handle is only as good as the operator. A missed swing, and over-strike, or even a misread split can put a dent or even snap your wood handle. 

So you have 3 options. 
1. Buy a cheep tool. Break it. Buy another cheep tool. Break it too. Curse because you could have spent less money now up front and got a good tool.
2. Get lucky and find an old quality tool used. Learn how to use it so that you never miss and the handle holds up or learn how to replace handles often.
3. Up your budget a little because the X27 is $50 plus shipping, and you will need a sledge and wedge for the tougher rounds as well. The Fiskars is not designed for driving wedges nor is it great at knots or crotches. You can always noodle what the Fiskars can't split and only buy one tool. But unless you find a free shipping deal you won't get a X27 for under $50. The X25 is a good tool too, but frankly I find the X27's handle to be a bit on the short side for my taste.


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## troylee (Nov 16, 2014)

x27 is 39.97 at walmart


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

Welp guess ill order the fiskars. I was looking for a maul while buying my saw but the dealer did not have any.


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## Deleted member 116684 (Nov 16, 2014)

go get a fiskars and dont waste you money on axes that will break and have no warranty. I've used a bunch of mauls for the past how ever many years i have been splitting wood and the x27 is sufficient for splitting most wood. When and if you want another one and you get the jack to do it, I'd dip into the subject a little deeper. Or if you want to you may be able to find a thread or video about how to shape cheap mauls into better ones. Good luck


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## mdavlee (Nov 16, 2014)

The council tool 6 lb maul seems to be a great price for a good quality steel.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 16, 2014)

Others have said it but it bears repeating:

"Wal Mart" carries the x27" You do NOT have to order one or pay shipping.

Harry K


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## woodchuck357 (Nov 16, 2014)

The way the grain runs has little to do with the strength of the handle unless it is a dog legged one. Just make sure the grain runs the full length of the handle, The handle with the grain running up and down when the ax is stuck into a stick of wood is more likely to warp to the side. 
I usually use heart wood for the hafts I make, Hickory or ash mostly but have made a lot out of white oak. 
I almost always split out the wood for ax and maul hafts, that way the grain doesn't run out. I also want a fast growing tree for handles, the fewer rings per inch the better.
The longer the handle the better 36 minium. for just splitting any maul is better than any ax, except for the monster mauls. 
And any edge tool will need sharpening, some need it when new.


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## mikey517 (Nov 16, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> The council tool 6 lb maul seems to be a great price for a good quality steel.


+1
There's a recent thread about them with pics. A nice tool!

Council Tool Maul

Made in USA and around $25.00


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## square1 (Nov 16, 2014)

aarolar said:


> Let me go ahead and get it out of the way....
> 
> 
> Fiskars X27



One & done! You can stop reading right here.


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

FWIW I prefer a good hickory handle splitting axe or maul I just know how it's going to go down in here so I just decided to join them.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 16, 2014)

I split mostly with an axe, but find few have an appropriate head shape for most wood, in that they have too narrow a taper that gets stuck too easily. For some wood that's OK, and for some you can do the "handle twist" as the head enters the wood, but for other wood that's hopeless and won't work. 

I also find that most axes in stores are too light at 3-1/2lb, and usually come with a crap handle poorly mounted. That said, all my axes are cheap junk bought locally or head I found. The original handles fail quickly and then I put on something better, usually a Link handle - they seem to be the best of what I can find in stores, but you still must pick and chose. I like something around 4-1/2lb, but those are had to find locally (except HF). With some attention to mounting a proper wooden handle and sharpening and reshaping the cutting edge, I find they work quite well. I'm trying to avoid ordering things on line if possible.

Both of the tools in these threads still work well:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/axe-me-about-my-new-axe.186934/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/axe-me-about-my-new-axe.186934/

I'm planning on buying another of those 4-1/2lb HF axes and reshaping the face to a steeper angle.


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## 513yj (Nov 16, 2014)

I bought the truper splitting axe at TSC for 25 bucks and it works a heck of a lot better than the splitting maul I have. I don't split much anymore that I bought a DHT 27 ton but sometimes I like to take down some straight grain hard maple for fun. A lot of the stuff I split in the past was a wedge and a 20lb sledge anhyhow as the splitting maul just bounces off standing dead elm rounds.


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## mdavlee (Nov 16, 2014)

I've got a husky maul at home waiting to be tried out. I have a x27 but don't use it much. The x25 had a better head design. I use a 5 lb council falling axe for kindling. It seems to do great for that stuff.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

Ya i wanted a council tool but they are sold out every where


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

4seasons said:


> Quick summary of what everyone is going to say:
> 1.Axes are not for splitting, that is a job for mauls.
> 2.Big box stores carry cheep Chinese axes/mauls.
> Both of these points are valid.
> ...


Good write up wow. Do you write for a living or what?


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

That splitting axe at TSC is a good one dad has been using his for 6 or 7 years now with no complaints.


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

We use an 8 pound splitting maul with a fiberglass handle it has lasted more then ten years. I call it a go devil no one seems to know what the hell that means. 6 lbs aint enough to bust the bigger stuff. I find the fiberglass handles hold up better to mis - strikes . Back in the old days I made my own handles from Hickory or White Oak but now I have money so I just buy stuff!


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 16, 2014)

I have split 5-7 cords a year for about 6 yrs with a Collins 8 lb and Collins 13 lb mauls. When the synthetic handle on the 8 lber finally came loose I cut the handle off and use it now for a splitting wedge. I decided I would give the famous X27 a try and I am not impressed. It works well for some straight grained stuff but I still prefer a heavier maul.


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## Ymountainman (Nov 16, 2014)

I have over thirty axes. All old vintage ones that ring like a bell if tapped on. I've used almost all the patterns on single bits and double bits. I bought the dvd above on axes . I have lined them up and split green oak. In my opinion the best splitting axe is a 3.5lb Kelly jersey pattern axe. It will run thru the wood. I have big 5lb jersey patterns too and they don't do as good as the 3.5lb ones? I guess I can't swing them as fast. The jersey pattern seems to be a lot better pattern than any other axe in my opinion. On the old axes you can honestly put a shaving sharp edge with a file.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

I have an x27 splitting ax... believe me, you'll also need a splitting maul.
If you get a splitting maul you won't "need" a splitting ax... but you may "want" one.

Swinging a splitting maul requires a different technique that swinging a splitting ax.
I don't know what your experience level is, but if I was to give advice to a novice... start with a 6# maul, add an 8# maul and 4# ax later.
*


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## regulate34 (Nov 16, 2014)

Must just be me but I hate Fiskars for splitting and chopping. Most my axes have been fitted with Sch40 pipe and handles filled with foam.
works great. you will never break it.

Right now I have been using my 6lb maul with a hickory handle because the handle was free. pretty happy with that.


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> I have an x27 splitting ax... believe me, you'll also need a splitting maul.
> If you get a splitting maul you won't "need" a splitting ax... but you may "want" one.
> 
> Swinging a splitting maul requires a different technique that swinging a splitting ax.
> ...


Not bad advice but once you split with an 8 the only way you go back to a 6 is if you loose the 8 or you are injured!


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)




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## slowp (Nov 16, 2014)

I am happy with my cheapo plastic? handled splitting maul. You see, I like to keep it near the rounds and that means out in the rain here. Wood rots. I think it is year 5 and it is still going. It was a Home Depot cheapo and definitely less than $50.


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

slowp said:


> I am happy with my cheapo plastic? handled splitting maul. You see, I like to keep it near the rounds and that means out in the rain here. Wood rots. I think it is year 5 and it is still going. It was a Home Depot cheapo and definitely less than $50.


How many pound?


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## slowp (Nov 16, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> How many pound?



Heavy enough. I don't know. I just use it, it works, and that's all I care about.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

Ahhh so once the fiskars fan boys leave the truth comes out!!!


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Ahhh so once the fiskars fan boys leave the truth comes out!!!


I split Oak logs averaging 20 or more inches with the 8 pound go devil or splitting maul as you may know it youngster. What are you busting hardwood or pine?


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> I split Oak logs averaging 20 or more inches with the 8 pound go devil or splitting maul as you may know it youngster. What are you busting hardwood or pine?


Post oak, some mesquite, lil cedar. No pine around here really.


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## troylee (Nov 16, 2014)

I have no idea where the axe, maul, hammer is gonna land, so I choose to not use them. I did go buy a fiskars hatchet, but have put it away, far out of reach, as I enjoy having my fingers and toes.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 16, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Not bad advice but once you split with an 8 the only way you go back to a 6 is if you loose the 8 or you are injured!


Lol - I hate my 8lb and want to get another 6lb. My wife had bought me a Craftsman 6lb with a glass handle and teflon coating. It worked pretty well, but was junk - it cracked at the handle hole. Then she bought me anther with a hickory handle, but the guy talked her into an 8lb. Next time I want to buy my own, although I appreciate her good intentions.


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> Lol - I hate my 8lb and want to get another 6lb. My wife had bought me a Craftsman 6lb with a glass handle and teflon coating. It worked pretty well, but was junk - it cracked at the handle hole. Then she bought me anther with a hickory handle, but the guy talked her into an 8lb. Next time I want to buy my own, although I appreciate her good intentions.


I can't do the 8lb either I can't get enough velocity behind it I stick with a 4-1/2 lb axe and if that won't bust it in 3-4 licks switch up to wedges the finally noodling as a last resort.


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## GVS (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Or, if you really want to _learn_ about axes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A very good video!


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> The way the grain runs has little to do with the strength of the handle unless it is a dog legged one.





My understanding of handle grain is that it matters in a couple of way. One, as mentioned, is that the handle is more likely to split if the grain 'runs out'. In the illustration above, I would call the upper handle 'better', not necessarily 'good.




The other is in stiffness of the handle. With grain running parallel to the head, the handle will be stiffer. With grain running perpendicular to the head, the handle will flex more. Try this with a small piece of wood to feel the difference.

Philbert


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## unclemoustache (Nov 16, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Ahhh so once the fiskars fan boys leave the truth comes out!!!



As I said on the first page, I have the Fiskars (both sizes) and a cheap plastic-handled maul. I prefer the maul. Fiskars just doesn't have the weight, unless you're splitting straight-grain easy stuff.


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## lone wolf (Nov 16, 2014)

unclemoustache said:


> As I said on the first page, I have the Fiskars (both sizes) and a cheap plastic-handled maul. I prefer the maul. Fiskars just doesn't have the weight, unless you're splitting straight-grain easy stuff.


I agree, and have found that to be very true the 8 lb works best any heavier your gonna ruin your lower back.


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## zogger (Nov 16, 2014)

Learning your tool, keeping it sharp, and reading the wood is more important than tool selection. It's like chainsaws, a guy who knows how to fell and buck and keep a sharp chain will get more done at the end of the day running some homerenter class saw than a noobie with the newest fancy pro saw.

all axes and mauls swing different, they just do. there is no single technique that works with all those tools. 

If you can swing fast and have good aim, you can get by with a lighter splitting axe. Same kinetic energy to the wood as a heavier one, swung slower. 

Personally, I have better aim with lighter splitting axes, mostly because I learned, and learned fast, how to split wood with a lightweight limbing axe.. I own a small variety of splitting tools and usually use all of them processing wood, and then there's noodling once it really gets hard going.

Wayyy back in the day when I worked for some firewood guys, they wanted me to use a monster maul..it busts wood, but shazam, I could only swing it for a little while, went back to my light axe and developed technique, and kept up with the big guys splitting with the monster maul.

When you are a little guy competing against big guys in a physical labor world, you have to learn finesse and technique over brute grunt power. 

I own and use an original fiskars supersplitter, which is my fav I have ever used, a TSC generic maul, a husky/wetterlings splitting axe, then sledge and wedges. I use them all. Zombie apocalypse hits, I am grabbing the fiskars and doing my mini HO scale annoyed Conan routine...


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 16, 2014)

unclemoustache said:


> As I said on the first page, I have the Fiskars (both sizes) and a cheap plastic-handled maul. I prefer the maul. Fiskars just doesn't have the weight, unless you're splitting straight-grain easy stuff.



I have both plus a wedge/sledge. Right tool for the right job is the answer. None of them will do all jobs well.

Harry K


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## regulate34 (Nov 16, 2014)

I prefer a 6lb maul 90% of the time. my 10lb maul comes out when I am in 36"+ wood.
I seem to be able to split longer with the 6lb over the 4lb axe


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

I have a conventional, single bit, wood handled, hardware store axe that I used to split with, based on my Boy Scout training. It works. I have a wood handled, 6 0r 8 pound (?) sledge and several 3 to 5 pound steel, splitting wedges (I pick them up at garage sales habitually) for larger stuff. Less mess (and faster?) than noodling. Good to have at least three wedges in case the first two get stuck. I also have a couple of 'wood grenade' wedges that picked up at garage sales and keep for show and tell, but they don't work that great IMHO.

I bought an earlier Fiskars maul, then an X27 when they came out to try it:

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/fiskars-28-and-36-side-by-side-comaprison.170817/

I got a monster maul from a neighbor who moved, and tried it for a while, but put it on CraigsList after comparing it to my Fiskars. I also picked up a couple of Fiskars chopping axes which I like for light limbing and driving plastic wedges when cutting with a chainsaw.

Philbert


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

aarolar said:


> _*I can't do the 8lb either I can't get enough velocity behind it...*_


Unlike an ax, velocity is not the key when using a maul... power and momentum (follow-through) are.
You should not concentrate your aim where the maul first strikes the round... your aim should be concentrated on where the maul finishes, where it strikes the splitting stump. That's what I meant about the different techniques; you aim an ax where it strikes, you aim a maul where it finishes... ya' haf'ta be thinking opposite ends of the round being split.

You'll often hear guys who use an ax explain how they "snap" or "cant" their wrists slightly just as, or just before, the ax strikes the round.
You don't do that with a maul, you should still be "swinging" as the maul finishes (or stops)... follow-through, follow-through, follow-through...
*


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Unlike an ax, velocity is not the key when using a maul... power and momentum (follow-through) are.
> You should not concentrate your aim where the maul first strikes the round... your aim should be concentrated on where the maul finishes, where it strikes the splitting stump. That's what I meant about the different techniques; you aim an ax where it strikes, you aim a maul where it finishes... ya' haf'ta be thinking opposite ends of the round being split.
> 
> You'll often hear guys who use an ax explain how they "snap" or "cant" their wrists slightly just as, or just before, the ax strikes the round.
> ...


I'll have to give it a try if I ever get another maul. I have one I reworked then found out I can't get a handle for it.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 16, 2014)

If you are interested in an actual axe for small limbing and kindling etc then I strongly suggest the Husqvarna forest axe. I think I paid around $65 for it and it's a hand forged hickory handled beauty from Sweden. Shaving sharp and the perfect small and light axe. It goes with me whenever I'm out cutting wood.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Unlike an ax, velocity is not the key when using a maul


The equation for kinetic energy is:


So if you double the mass you double the energy imparted at impact (assuming you can swing it as fast), but if you double the velocity you get 4 times the energy. This is just as true for a maul as it is for an axe. Even with a maul you're better off if you can swing it fast, which is why I don't like an 8lb maul - I can swing one fast but I can feel I'm losing altitude with every swing! I can swing a 6lb maul at a decent velocity for quite a while, at least when I'm in shape.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 16, 2014)

Here's a picture of my husqvarna forest axe.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Or, if you really want to _learn_ about axes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You're really, really into sharp things aren't you?


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

Im going to get a cheap one see how long it lasts. Just like my cheap stihl saw.....


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> You're really, really into sharp things aren't you?


Tool focused. 

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

You guys know a splitting maul that can also be used as a sledge? I don't want to be forced to drag 20 freaking things with me when I scrounge for firewood. Already have to carry the chainsaw, PPE, bar oil, chain file, extra chain, possibly larger bar, fuel, bucking/felling wedges, Fiskars, etc. If you can't use the maul as a sledge why the hell do they make the other end flat!? Make the other end into an axe head. I agree it will be one heavy axe but at least it will purposeful. 

Anyways, I would be really grateful if someone can recommend a dual purpose maul.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> You're really, really into sharp things aren't you?


He's the sharpest cutter on the chain!


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> You guys know a splitting maul that can also be used as a sledge? . . . If you can't use the maul as a sledge why the hell do they make the other end flat!?.


Good question. Sledgehammers are softer than other hammers, so that they don't chip when driving a steel wedge. A maul may work: I have not used one for that. Maybe someone else can chime in. 

Some of the metal on the other side of the head is also for balance.

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Oh wait a minute, just read the Council Tool blurb about their mauls. Here it is:

Designed to split and "bust" wood, mauls feature a wood cutting blade on one end and a round striking face on the opposite end. The striking face is intended for driving steel wedges that are used in conjunction with splitting logs

If that's true, problem solved.


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

mikey517 said:


> +1
> There's a recent thread about them with pics. A nice tool!
> 
> Council Tool Maul
> ...





aarolar said:


> FWIW I prefer a good hickory handle splitting axe or maul I just know how it's going to go down in here so I just decided to join them.



My curiosity is peaked on the Council Tools maul based upon CT Yank's thread. 

I do believe I am going to give it a try and buff out the head like he did. 

It's a cheap enough price to experiment with. 

I am curious to see how well it holds up to the abuse that I put the Fiskars through (Mr Over Strike and pry bar usage) along with shock transmission to my hands and arms. 

My Fiskar's has been a honey badger of a tool that gets worked hard and I have been thoroughly pleased with it's purchase.


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

Where is everybody getting the council tools maul at?


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

aarolar said:


> Where is everybody getting the council tools maul at?



I was going to go to Bailey's for it. Hopefully shipping won't be bad.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

benp said:


> My curiosity is peaked on the Council Tools maul based upon CT Yank's thread.
> 
> I do believe I am going to give it a try and buff out the head like he did.
> 
> ...



Do you run into a lot of stuff that Fiskars can't handle? If you break out the maul/wedges for stuff the Fiskars is unable to split I'd rather run with the maul to begin with.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

$20 just got me a 3.5 lb maul with hickory handle. Ill see how she holds up


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> _*The equation for kinetic energy is:*_


Unfortunately, kinetic energy is the energy something contains due to velocity... as velocity drops by half, energy drops at the same 4-times rate. A lighter object loses velocity much faster when it meets resistance... such as an ax or maul striking wood. An example of this is demonstrated by ballistics... it's possible to send a lighter bullet from the muzzle at a much higher velocity (and it has a higher kinetic energy at launch). But both bullets meet air resistance as soon as they are launched, and the lighter bullet slows much faster... momentum causes the heavier bullet to lose less relative velocity. At some point down range, the heavier bullet will be traveling faster than the lighter bullet... and it now holds the higher kinetic energy. There's a bit more to it than that... but I believe you see my point.

Kinetic energy is the measure of energy contained by a moving object only at that moment in time (due to it's velocity at that brief moment).
Momentum (p=mv), on the other hand, is a measure of an object's ability to retain energy as it meets resistance.

That's why a light splitting ax works well for straight grained, relatively easy to split wood... it only needs to impart that energy for a relatively brief moment in time (before it loses most of that energy).
But for tough to split wood, even though it contains less energy at the moment of strike, the heavier maul will impart more energy over the length of time needed to complete the split (because it retains more of its energy longer during resistance).

It flat ain't as simple as doing a bit of multiplication and making such claims as yours... there's much more to it.

Follow-through, follow-through, follow-through...
*


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> $20 just got me a 3.5 lb maul with hickory handle. Ill see how she holds up


That's really light to be a maul sounds more like an axe


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Do you run into a lot of stuff that Fiskars can't handle? If you break out the maul/wedges for stuff the Fiskars is unable to split I'd rather run with the maul to begin with.



No I don't and I split a lot of big length rounds.

To me not splitting and unable to split are two different scenarios.

Not splitting = Fiskars bouncing back at me or sticks in with a thunk and shows no sign of cracking on either end of the round. I know within a few whacks if it is not going to play nice.

Unable to split = Some forward progression but just does want to give up the ghost. I ran into an oak last year that had this funky twisted grain like the outside of a Twizlers that I wound up wedging and sledging.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

benp said:


> No I don't and I split a lot of big length rounds.
> 
> To me not splitting and unable to split are two different scenarios.
> 
> ...



So the Fiskars is sufficient for the majority of stuff you run into. The stuff that over matches it is something that a maul wouldn't be able to crack either. Knowing this, I would be a total idiot if I willingly chose to swing a 6 pound sledge vs the Fiskars. Thanks for the help


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

aarolar said:


> That's really light to be a maul sounds more like an axe


Ya single bit axe. Sorry wasnt thinking. I watched that video, ill split tmrw. See how it goes.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Unfortunately, kinetic energy is the energy something contains due to velocity... as velocity drops by half, energy drops at the same 4-times rate. A lighter object looses velocity much faster when it meets resistance... such as an ax or maul striking wood. An example of this is demonstrated by ballistics... it's possible to send a lighter bullet from the muzzle at a much higher velocity (and it has a higher kinetic energy at launch). But both bullets meet air resistance as soon as they are launched, and the lighter bullet slows much faster... momentum causes the heavier bullet to lose less relative velocity. At some point down range, the heavier bullet will be traveling faster than the lighter bullet... and it now holds the higher kinetic energy. There's a bit more to it than that... but I believe you see my point.
> 
> Kinetic energy is the measure of energy contained by a moving object only at that moment in time (due to it's velocity at that brief moment).
> Momentum (p=mv), on the other hand, is a measure of an object's ability to retain energy as it meets resistance.
> ...


Too much conjecture here without anything to back it up. The energy stored in the tool head is determined by mass and velocity according to the equation. You may be thinking of momentum, but that is still only mass * velocity, so they trade off evenly. 

What is done with it when it hits and how effectively it splits a certain type of wood is another question, and that is why we use tools with different shapes. 

Nonetheless, regardless of the tool it works by transferring the kinetic energy stored in the moving tool into forces that break the fiber bonds, and all the energy you have to work with comes from mass times velocity squared. So assuming you've chosen a tool with a profile well matched to the characteristics of the wood you're splitting, you are still better off swinging it fast compared to a heavier tool swung slower. 

Basically, swing the heaviest tool you can get moving fast without sapping all your strength. I'm better off with a 6lb than an 8lb.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*The stuff that over matches it is something that a maul wouldn't be able to crack either.*_


How-in-he!! did you get that from his post?
I'll flat tell ya' that there's plenty of rounds my Fiskars wouldn't split with 3, 4, or even more swings... but my 8# maul handled with one.
Most of the Bur Oak I split laughs at that 4# pound Fiskars... but it cringes when I bring out the maul‼
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> How-in-he!! did you get that from his post?
> I'll flat tell ya' that there's plenty of rounds my Fiskars wouldn't split with 3, 4, or even more swings... but my 8# maul handled with one.
> Most of the Bur Oak I split laughs at that 4# pound Fiskars... but it cringes when I bring out the maul‼
> *



lol. Well forgive me if I mistook his message. Went firewood scrounging today and I'm worn out.

I asked if he runs into a lot of stuff that his Fiskars couldn't handle. He said "No I don't and I split a lot of big length rounds." So one he splits possibly abnormally long rounds and they are large. If he has to use a wedge and a sledge then it's probably something a maul wouldn't be able to crack either. If the maul could handle it, why the hell would he drag out the sledge and wedges? Just seems like more work to me vs wacking the crap out of it with a maul.

So bottom line is Fiskars can handle most of the stuff it sees. A maul will be able to handle everything a Fiskars can and a little more but will take more energy to do so. Wedge and sledge will handle the outliers. If this is still wrong, I give up. I'll read this thread again tomorrow when I stop being a wuss from firewood hauling.


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## troylee (Nov 16, 2014)

When you all swing an axe/maul, how close do you come to hitting "the mark"? I can't guarantee being within 6" either way. I doubt it would be within a foot with a maul.


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> So bottom line is Fiskars can handle most of the stuff it sees. A maul will be able to handle everything a Fiskars can and a little more but will take more energy to do so. Wedge and sledge will handle the outliers. If this is still wrong, I give up.



Like anything else, no single tool will do anything. Choose the one you feel will best meet _your_ needs, the way _you_ work, _your _wood, etc. That's why most guys have a few different tools or methods they use.

Philbert


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> _*The energy stored in the tool head is determined by mass and velocity according to the equation.*_


No... that's not correct.
You're confusing kinetic energy with "absolute" energy.
Kinetic energy is not "stored" energy, it's a measure of the energy required to accelerate that object up to that particular velocity (whatever that velocity may be in any given moment in time)... kinetic energy has no relationship to "stored" energy. A stretched and secured rubber band "stores" energy... unless constantly powered, a moving object loses energy (on this planet), it does not "store" it.



troylee said:


> _*When you all swing an axe/maul, how close do you come to hitting "the mark"?*_


On a good day, I can place it in the exact same crack every time... on a bad day, within ½ an inch... on a "way too much beer last night" day, within an inch (whiskey may push it a bit over that).
*


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm with whitespider I can pick a spot and hit it repeatedly or even walk it across the face. I'd be willing to bet a 20 that I could hit a penny if it came to it.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Like anything else, no single tool will do anything. Choose the one you feel will best meet _your_ needs, the way _you_ work, _your _wood, etc. That's why most guys have a few different tools or methods they use.
> 
> Philbert



So I'll go with the Fiskars and just leave all the stuff that over matches it to rot in the woods lol. I'll be a uppity scrounger.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

For the record guys.... Tomorrow will be the first time to swing an axe....


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## troylee (Nov 16, 2014)

I know it is practice makes perfect, but I can't drive a nail with a hammer, no way can I chance the damage to life and limb with an axe.


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> For the record guys.... Tomorrow will be the first time to swing an axe....


Expect to break handles and miss your spot for some time. You will get there it just takes time and practice.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> For the record guys.... Tomorrow will be the first time to swing an axe....



Good luck. I never had much luck splitting with a single bit axe. Just kept sticking in the round. I always had to go back to my grandfathers maul. I loved that thing. I should find out the brand. He lives in NC so perhaps it's a Council Tool maul.

Oh, try not to over swing, or what ever it's called. I had a real issue with that. Broke a few handles. Then I grew wise and bought a massive grotesque maul that was fire engine read. Heavy too. Couldn't split a log to save my life with that thing.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 16, 2014)

We shall see. I read about the twist technique. Hopefully ill get it.


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

Yep a true single bit never worked for me either it's gotta have wings to be effective.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*So I'll go with the Fiskars and just leave all the stuff that over matches it to rot in the woods*_


L-O-L
Or you could get an ax, a maul, and a couple splittin' wedges... and keep it ALL‼
*


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> So I'll go with the Fiskars and just leave all the stuff that over matches it to rot in the woods lol. I'll be a uppity scrounger.


Maybe you go with the Fiskars, get what you can, see what is left, and come back another time with other tools for the other stuff. No matter what you have, some stuff is going to be too big for most scroungers.

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> L-O-L
> Or you could get an ax, a maul, and a couple splittin' wedges... and keep it ALL‼
> *



Hey now, that doesn't sound too bad. I already have some wedges that's buried in a stump near my house. Guess the previous tenants tried to split this thing. No idea what the hell they were thinking driving wedges into a stump. I'm going to chisel them out and use those bad boys. Yep, I can be pretty cheap lol. 

Yeah, what the hell. I'll get the Fiskars X27, Council Tool 6 pound maul, chisel out the wedges from the stump, buy some bucking wedges, buy some felling wedges, get one of those cool freaking Husqvarna lever felling thingies, buy a Husqvarna forest helmet system, rubber chainsaw resistant boots, fancy chainsaw resistant gloves, eye pro sunglasses, HD Makita 6421, a limbing saw, a hatchet to lop branches, a lopper to lop off smaller branches, a firewood truck, convert a boat trailer to a firewood hauler, bar mounted chain filer. Lets see, what else. I'll do all this and decide wood burning is not for me. I see a possible divorce in my future.


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> So the Fiskars is sufficient for the majority of stuff you run into.* The stuff that over matches it is something that a maul wouldn't be able to crack either*. Knowing this, I would be a total idiot if I willingly chose to swing a 6 pound sledge vs the Fiskars. Thanks for the help



At this juncture I would say yes. That is why I want to get one of the Council Tools mauls that CT Yank got to see if there is a difference.

I am not going after little stuff either with the Fiskars.





















The main differences between the two, imo, will be durability and how much it beats me up.

If it can hold up to the utter abuse I put the Fiskars through, my aim isn't swift with frequent overstrikes and having the handle bent over 5 inches when prying a piece apart, then I will be impressed.

I feel I will have it broke before the boiler shuts off for the year.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Maybe you go with the Fiskars, get what you can, see what is left, and come back another time with other tools for the other stuff. No matter what you have, some stuff is going to be too big for most scroungers.
> 
> Philbert



This Philbert guy has a good, logical head on his shoulders. This should probably go in the scrounging thread but I've been telling everyone I meet I burn wood. Always looking for more. Well now I know someone that burns wood as well and he has a splitter. If I run into something massive, I'll call this dude and use his splitter. I wonder if he has a maul I can use too?


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## aarolar (Nov 16, 2014)

If your aim ain't no better than that it won't last a day.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

benp said:


> At this juncture I would say yes. That is why I want to get one of the Council Tools mauls that CT Yank got to see if there is a difference.
> 
> I am not going after little stuff either with the Fiskars.
> 
> ...



Damn those things are long. I'm assuming the Fiskars is 36". Those long things can fit into your boiler?


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Hey now, that doesn't sound too bad. I already have some wedges that's buried in a stump near my house. Guess the previous tenants tried to split this thing. No idea what the hell they were thinking driving wedges into a stump. I'm going to chisel them out and use those bad boys. Yep, I can be pretty cheap lol.
> 
> Yeah, what the hell. I'll get the Fiskars X27, Council Tool 6 pound maul, chisel out the wedges from the stump, buy some bucking wedges, buy some felling wedges, get one of those cool freaking Husqvarna lever felling thingies, buy a Husqvarna forest helmet system, rubber chainsaw resistant boots, fancy chainsaw resistant gloves, eye pro sunglasses, HD Makita 6421, a limbing saw, a hatchet to lop branches, a lopper to lop off smaller branches, a firewood truck, convert a boat trailer to a firewood hauler, bar mounted chain filer. Lets see, what else. I'll do all this and decide wood burning is not for me. I see a possible divorce in my future.



You forgot safety chaps in your Santa list......


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## Philbert (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Well now I know someone that burns wood as well and he has a splitter. If I run into something massive, I'll call this dude and use his splitter.


Not trying to make a pun, but sometimes it is better to scrounge with a friend. Safer, makes things easier, and . . . . (wait for it . . . ) . . . you can _split _the wood!

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

benp said:


> You forgot safety chaps in your Santa list......



Oh yes, safety chaps! Maybe some bright clothing like the Husqvarna chainsaw video guys too. Don't want to be shot by hunters while I'm scrounging. Forgot one more thing, some shin guards. A massive round fell back onto my left shin. Almost cried yesterday in the woods. Wife was nearby so I had to man up and just complained about it for the rest of the day.


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

aarolar said:


> If your aim ain't no better than that it won't last a day.



Then the Fiskars is better to me.

Like I said.....I consider it the Honey Badger of tools.

"It just don't give a sh!t."


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## Ambull01 (Nov 16, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Not trying to make a pun, but sometimes it is better to scrounge with a friend. Safer, makes things easier, and . . . . (wait for it . . . ) . . . you can _split _the wood!
> 
> Philbert



lmao. Yes, win win! Good ole buddy system.


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## benp (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Oh yes, safety chaps! Maybe some bright clothing like the Husqvarna chainsaw video guys too. Don't want to be shot by hunters while I'm scrounging. Forgot one more thing, some shin guards. A massive round fell back onto my left shin. Almost cried yesterday in the woods. Wife was nearby so I had to man up and just complained about it for the rest of the day.



Getting beat up is part of the deal. It happens.

And Philbert is 100% on working with a buddy.

You can get A LOT done with one cutting and another splitting and getting stuff out of the cutters way. Much much more efficient.


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## 513yj (Nov 16, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> So I'll go with the Fiskars and just leave all the stuff that over matches it to rot in the woods lol. I'll be a uppity scrounger.



I used to leave a lot of that stuff there before I gots me a hydraulic splitter. Last year I mostly used the splitting axe since I could split my wood with a lighter tool in as many or less blows. My maul is an old who knows the brand but it says Made in USA on it that had to be wire wheeled to get the rust off so that might have something to do with it. I sharpened it with a medium grit stone on a bench grinder so that might be part of the problem too. I do know that I'm no longer leaving the big stuff nobody wants to deal with since I can process it easily now.


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## mdavlee (Nov 17, 2014)

I got this waiting on me right now. I hope to have a council or the like in the 6 lb range also soon. I have some ash, oak, and cherry to split.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Kinetic energy is not "stored" energy, it's a measure of the energy required to accelerate that object up to that particular velocity (whatever that velocity may be in any given moment in time)... kinetic energy has no relationship to "stored" energy.


The moving mass of the tool is in fact storing energy - the energy you put into it with your muscles. The amount of energy you put into it is determined by the kinetic energy equation. At impact this energy is dissipated, hopefully by breaking the wood fibers, but sometimes it is just turned into heat through friction (and then you get to swing again). You can store energy in mechanical form - this is how flywheel storage systems work.

Most of us are not strong enough to use an axe or maul handle as a ridged arm to push the tool head through the wood, so we store energy in the mass of the moving tool, which is released at impact. 

Energy must always flow from a higher concentration to be dissipated as heat at the background temperature. If you are doing work, that is energy per unit time, and the energy for it must come from somewhere.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

Then explain this to me Chris-PA,
Why is it a lighter, faster bullet, with a much higher kinetic energy value, *un*able to penetrate the skull of an elephant... yet the heavier, slower bullet, with a much lower kinetic energy value, able to penetrate the skull of an elephant??
Why is it that a 5 ounce baseball, traveling at 90 MPH, can knock a man clean off his feet and seriously dent steel... yet a 2 ounce tennis ball traveling at 150 MPH (which has a higher kinetic energy value), barely raises a welt??

Never mind... don't answer...
It's because kinetic energy ignores momentum... and momentum is the measure of a moving object's ability to do work.
*


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## KenJax Tree (Nov 17, 2014)

Forget all of em' just noodle everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zogger (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I got this waiting on me right now. I hope to have a council or the like in the 6 lb range also soon. I have some ash, oak, and cherry to split.



They do look high tech nice. What do those go for?


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## KenJax Tree (Nov 17, 2014)

$90 at my dealer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Miles86 (Nov 17, 2014)

This is what you want for the woods:

http://www.smkw.com/webapp/eCommerc...ayton+Model+Axe+with+4lb+Head/CTC40DR36C.html

The pol is the right size for wedging etc, and made is USA.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 17, 2014)

I think there are many that use the wrong technique when using a heavier maul. I think it's the same amount of work using the big maul as it is my fiskars. Depending on the wood I am splitting either one could be more effective at a given time. I am tempted to buy a nice 6 or 8 lb maul with a wood handle from husqvarna.


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I got this waiting on me right now.



Very interested to hear how it works out!

Did we ever get an answer of how it's warranty compares to the Fiskar's 

Philbert


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## Chris-PA (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Why is it a lighter, faster bullet, with a much higher kinetic energy value, *un*able to penetrate the skull of an elephant... yet the heavier, slower bullet, with a much lower kinetic energy value, able to penetrate the skull of an elephant??


You've mixed a lot of things together with this question - there are a lot of variables beyond the energy available, such as material properties and shape of the projectile. This is akin to choosing the right head profile on a splitting tool.



Whitespider said:


> Why is it that a 5 ounce baseball, traveling at 90 MPH, can knock a man clean off his feet and seriously dent steel... yet a 2 ounce tennis ball traveling at 150 MPH (which has a higher kinetic energy value), barely raises a welt??


Most likely because the tennis ball is much more elastic than the baseball, so at impact the energy is transferred at a lower rate. Work or power is energy/time, so dissipating the energy over a longer time means the peak power is lower. 



Whitespider said:


> It's because kinetic energy ignores momentum... and momentum is the measure of a moving object's ability to do work.


As I said before, momentum is just mass * velocity, so going 10% faster is equivalent to swinging something 10% heavier. 

The energy to split the wood must come from somewhere. You can set a 12lb maul on the log and nothing will happen. The energy comes from the person swinging, and the tool is the method of transferring that energy to the log where it is used to perform work. A tool that is moving faster has more energy stored in it at impact.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 17, 2014)

I suggest you both come over to my place and test your theories! I have several cords worth of test subjects to work with!


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Hey nobody cares about interia and crap. I just wanted to know what worked. You ladies need to stop squawking and go back to eating bon bons


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 17, 2014)

I have an x-25 and x-27 ,they split good for what they are ,get the job done ,for a few bucks more can get Husqvarna axe's ,i have 2 of them ,have a nice feel in the hand ,i have the carpenter axe and the fellers axe ,not for splitting wood those 2 ,more for debarking and chopping ,i am going to look at their splitting ones also ,they are a step below gransfors ,but half the price or less


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> $20 just got me a 3.5 lb maul with hickory handle. Ill see how she holds up


 
After you replace the second handle at $10 each you will remind yourself that you could of had a Fiskars with lifetime handle warrantee for <$50.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> After you replace the second handle at $10 each you will remind yourself that you could of had a Fiskars with lifetime handle warrantee for <$50.


Ok thanks


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I have an x-25 and x-27 ,they split good for what they are ,get the job done ,for a few bucks more can get Husqvarna axe's ,i have 2 of them ,have a nice feel in the hand ,i have the carpenter axe and the fellers axe ,not for splitting wood those 2 ,more for debarking and chopping ,i am going to look at their splitting ones also ,they are a step below gransfors ,but half the price or less


 
Whats the warrantee on the Husqvarna axes compared to the Fiskars? The handle is also shorter than the 36" Fiskars X-27. I couldnt imagine trying to split with anything less than 36". Each to their own I guess.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> _*Hey nobody cares about interia...*_


Hey... there ain't been any mention of inertia... but if'n you would like 
*


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Hey... there ain't been any mention of inertia... but if'n you would like
> *


You didnt quote my post correctly genius


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Unfortunately, kinetic energy is the energy something contains due to velocity... as velocity drops by half, energy drops at the same 4-times rate. A lighter object loses velocity much faster when it meets resistance... such as an ax or maul striking wood. An example of this is demonstrated by ballistics... it's possible to send a lighter bullet from the muzzle at a much higher velocity (and it has a higher kinetic energy at launch). But both bullets meet air resistance as soon as they are launched, and the lighter bullet slows much faster... momentum causes the heavier bullet to lose less relative velocity. At some point down range, the heavier bullet will be traveling faster than the lighter bullet... and it now holds the higher kinetic energy. There's a bit more to it than that... but I believe you see my point.
> 
> Kinetic energy is the measure of energy contained by a moving object only at that moment in time (due to it's velocity at that brief moment).
> Momentum (p=mv), on the other hand, is a measure of an object's ability to retain energy as it meets resistance.
> ...


 
Energy is energy. If the lighter fiskar has more energy because its higher velocity then more energy will be delivered into the round of wood. Forget what you think you know about momentum and losses due to air resistance, thats not applicable here.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Whats the warrantee on the Husqvarna axes compared to the Fiskars? The handle is also shorter than the 36" Fiskars X-27. I couldnt imagine trying to split with anything less than 36". Each to their own I guess.


I never really looked at it for a warranty ,if i break the handle it is my own fault if i miss ,it is a wear item as far as i am concerned ,i would rather pay more for something that performs better than pay more for a warranty on something that does not perform as good ,my brand new saws for example go right to the modder before i run them ,warranty is void at that point ,i have a fiskars as well with the 36 ,it is my splitting axe till i upgrade to a husky ,or if i splurge a gransfors ,the edge and feel on the better axe's is a lot different then the fikars in my opinion ,not that there is anything wrong with fiskars ,i have 3 models of them myself .


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I never really looked at it for a warranty ,if i break the handle it is my own fault if i miss ,it is a wear item as far as i am concerned ,i would rather pay more for something that performs better than pay more for a warranty on something that does not perform as good ,my brand new saws for example go right to the modder before i run them ,warranty is void at that point ,i have a fiskars as well with the 36 ,it is my splitting axe till i upgrade to a husky ,or if i splurge a gransfors ,the edge and feel on the better axe's is a lot different then the fikars in my opinion ,not that there is anything wrong with fiskars ,i have 3 models of them myself .


 
Let us know what they perform compared to the Fiskars. I cant believe a Husqvarna splitting axe with a 27" handle is going to be able to out perform a Fiskars 36" handle. Their head is relatively the same shape so I would venture a guess that they are going to be closely similar if they had the same handle length.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Energy is energy. If the lighter fiskar has more energy because its higher velocity then more energy will be delivered into the round of wood. Forget what you think you know about momentum and losses due to air resistance, thats not applicable here.*_


Well... I know if a 6 0unce billiard ball moving at 20 FPS squarely strikes another stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly 20 FPS away from it.
But if a 3 0unce billiard ball moving at 40 FPS (twice the kinetic energy, but identical momentum) squarely strikes a stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly the same 20 FPS away from it.
So... if the 3 ounce billiard ball had twice the kinetic energy... why does the struck ball move away at the same speed?? Where did the other half of that kinetic energy go??
*


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Let us know what they perform compared to the Fiskars. I cant believe a Husqvarna splitting axe with a 27" handle is going to be able to out perform a Fiskars 36" handle. Their head is relatively the same shape so I would venture a guess that they are going to be closely similar if they had the same handle length.


I like the longer 36 inch handle also ,i have not researched the higher end ones all that much yet to see how long they are ,i do like wood handles though so i think i will look into them some see if one is out there ,till then my x-27 is doing it's job just fine ,i looked at a stihl mall at the saw shop ,did not like the handle on the one that was on display ,did not have the hooked end at bottom ,was more like a sledge hammer handle ,not sure if they have reg axe handled ones or not ,may look into those also


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## Chris-PA (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> interia and crap


The inertia of crap is not something I'm qualified to discuss - there are too many variables.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Well... I know if a 6 0unce billiard ball moving at 20 FPS squarely strikes another stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly 20 FPS away from it.
> But if a 3 0unce billiard ball moving at 40 FPS (twice the kinetic energy, but identical momentum) squarely strikes a stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly the same 20 FPS away from it.
> So... if the 3 ounce billiard ball had twice the kinetic energy... why does the struck ball move away at the same speed?? Where did the other half of that kinetic energy go??
> *


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2014)

Honestly, I have never tried to split wood with a tennis ball, but hey, I am open minded . . . .

Philbert


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Just used my cheapo axe. Works good, i just suck


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2014)

Trx250r180 said:


> I never really looked at it for a warranty ,if i break the handle it is my own fault . . .



Fiskars warranties their synthetic handled tools to inspire confidence in them - a lot of people would not have tried them without this. Some do break, but that is factored into their costs. At the same time, if I am spending that much money on an axe, I want to be sure that it is not disposable. I want the option of replacing/repairing it, even if it is my fault. Wood handles and guaranteed 'plastic' handles meet that requirement for me.

Philbert


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## Sagetown (Nov 17, 2014)

mdavlee said:


> I got this waiting on me right now. I hope to have a council or the like in the 6 lb range also soon. I have some ash, oak, and cherry to split.


Really Folks: I've got all the axes I'll ever need, but I may be coming down with AAD, cause I sure like those Council Tool Axes y'all are talking about.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

The steel balls in Newton's Cradle are all of identical mass @Chris-PA , my billiard ball example uses balls of different mass and velocity.
If the lighter, faster billiard ball has twice the kinetic energy of the heavier, slower ball (yet, identical momentum)... why does the struck ball move at the same speed?? Why doesn't the struck ball move faster from the higher kinetic energy impact?? Where did all that extra "energy" go??

The truth is... it didn't go anywhere, it never really existed. Kinetic energy is a "potential", or "reference" value... energy and power are two separate things.
*


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## Chris-PA (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> The steel balls in Newton's Cradle are all of identical mass


I put that there as a joke. Inelastic collisions are not the correct model for what is happening when we split wood.

I can't really get into it now as I need to focus on work, and I believe we're boring people to death anyway. You have not indicated where you believe the energy to split the wood comes from.


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Well... I know if a 6 0unce billiard ball moving at 20 FPS squarely strikes another stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly 20 FPS away from it.
> But if a 3 0unce billiard ball moving at 40 FPS (twice the kinetic energy, but identical momentum) squarely strikes a stationary 6 0unce billiard ball... the ball that was moving becomes stationary, and the ball that was stationary moves at at roughly the same 20 FPS away from it.
> So... if the 3 ounce billiard ball had twice the kinetic energy... why does the struck ball move away at the same speed?? Where did the other half of that kinetic energy go??
> *


 
It's very simple, it takes energy to accelerate a mass. Specifically, velocity is the square root of 1/2mass x energy. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. 

In your example, the 3oz ball carries twice as much energy as the 6oz ball moving at twice the speed. When the 6oz ball contacts the resting 6oz ball it will travel away at 20FPS. The 40 FPS 3oz ball will strike the 6oz ball and make it travel away at 28FPS. Basically it takes more work to accelerate an object faster.


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> You have not indicated where you believe the energy to split the wood comes from.


(The guy . . . with the axe?)

Philbert


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> The steel balls in Newton's Cradle are all of identical mass @Chris-PA , my billiard ball example uses balls of different mass and velocity.
> If the lighter, faster billiard ball has twice the kinetic energy of the heavier, slower ball (yet, identical momentum)... *why does the struck ball move at the same speed?? Why doesn't the struck ball move faster from the higher kinetic energy impact?? Where did all that extra "energy" go??*
> 
> *The truth is... it didn't go anywhere, it never really existed*. Kinetic energy is a "potential", or "reference" value... energy and power are two separate things.
> *


 
It does move faster! The two struck balls dont move at the same speed. The one struck with the lighter faster 3oz ball moves 8fps faster than the one struck with the 6oz ball. Laws of physics says energy is neither created nor destroyed. Are you trying to create your own laws? lol

The truth is it had more energy the whole time and it transfered it into the ball and results in 8FPS more velocity. Just because it wasnt a 1 for 1 transfer doesnt mean it doesnt exist. 

You might want to refresh yourself with Mr. Newtons laws and the definition of kinetic and potential energy.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*The 40 FPS 3oz ball will strike the 6oz ball and make it travel away at 28FPS.
> You might want to refresh yourself with Mr. Newtons laws...*_


No... you should refresh yourself with Mr. Newton's laws... specifically the Law of Conservation of Momentum (derived from Newton's Third Law of Motion).

It states the total momentum of a closed system does not change. This means that when two objects collide the total momentum of the objects before the collision is the same as the total momentum of the objects after the collision (a stationary object has zero momentum). Now, billiard balls are not an absolute "closed" system, there is a very tiny amount of momentum lost to friction and whatnot... that's why I said "roughly" 20 FPS (because the struck ball would be moving slightly less than 20 FPS... certainly not more). If that 6 ounce ball was traveling at 28 FPS after the collision by the 3 ounce ball... well... that would break Mr. Newton's laws and most of them would need to be rewritten. You are correct that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but "kinetic" energy is not energy (in the sense you speak, in the physics sense), nor is it potential energy... it is a potential value, or reference value, depending on the calculation.

Go back and read my post again... I used the word value, not energy.

Oh... by-the-way... "Energy" equals mass times the speed of light squared (E=mc²).
Notice the velocity of mass itself is not part of the equation.
*


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> No... you should refresh yourself with Mr. Newton's laws... specifically the Law of Conservation of Momentum (derived from Newton's Third Law of Motion).
> 
> It states the total momentum of a closed system does not change. This means that when two objects collide the total momentum of the objects before the collision is the same as the total momentum of the objects after the collision (a stationary object has zero momentum). Now, billiard balls are not an absolute "closed" system, there is a very tiny amount of momentum lost to friction and whatnot... that's why I said "roughly" 20 FPS (because the struck ball would be moving slightly less than 20 FPS... certainly not more). If that 6 ounce ball was traveling at 28 FPS after the collision by the 3 ounce ball... well... that would break Mr. Newton's laws and most of them would need to be rewritten. You are correct that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but "kinetic" energy is not energy (in the sense you speak, in the physics sense), nor is it potential energy... it is a potential value, or reference value, depending on the calculation.
> 
> ...


You need to keep reading further into your Wikipedia text about elastic collission and how kinetic energy factors into the equation.

By itself, the law of conservation of momentum is not enough to determine the motion of particles after a collision. Another property of the motion, kinetic energy, must be known.


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## lone wolf (Nov 17, 2014)

Experience and crap, I been splitting 40 years the heavier head will split better if you have enough power to swing it!


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*You need to keep reading further into Wikipedia about elastic collission and how kinetic energy factors into the equation.*_ _*By itself, the law of conservation of momentum is not enough to determine the motion of particles after a collision. Another property of the motion, kinetic energy, must be known.*_


Did I not just say that the kinetic energy value was used for calculation??
In the case of two objects, both in motion, at different velocities and/or mass, the kinetic energy value (one of several values) is used to calculate what the resulting velocity of each object will be after a collision... but the *total* momentum remains unchanged unless an outside force affects one, or the other, or both.

And, I don't read Wikipedia.
And, we weren't talkin' about particles... it was billiard balls (one of which was stationary).
*


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Dont yall have jobs? Or is your job arguing with people??


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## lone wolf (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Dont yall have jobs? Or is your job arguing with people??


Raining hard here today no climbing.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Oh yes, safety chaps! Maybe some bright clothing like the Husqvarna chainsaw video guys too. Don't want to be shot by hunters while I'm scrounging. Forgot one more thing, some shin guards. A massive round fell back onto my left shin. Almost cried yesterday in the woods. Wife was nearby so I had to man up and just complained about it for the rest of the day.



Regular chainsaw chaps takes care of the of shins...when you wear them that is. It is the second part I tend to forget when fooling around the woodpile.

Harry K


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> _*Dont yall have jobs? Or is your job arguing with people??*_


Winter weather advisory here today, 10°, winds gusting over 35 MPH, blowing snow reducing visibilities and icing things up...
No road time or climbing unless it's an emergency.
*


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## aarolar (Nov 17, 2014)

Y'all think way to much about splitting a piece of wood just pick up the closest maul or axe and hit the damn thing if it don't bust back up and try something else.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

513yj said:


> I used to leave a lot of that stuff there before I gots me a hydraulic splitter. Last year I mostly used the splitting axe since I could split my wood with a lighter tool in as many or less blows. My maul is an old who knows the brand but it says Made in USA on it that had to be wire wheeled to get the rust off so that might have something to do with it. I sharpened it with a medium grit stone on a bench grinder so that might be part of the problem too. I do know that I'm no longer leaving the big stuff nobody wants to deal with since I can process it easily now.



You're not talking about those manual hydraulic splitters right? Just saw a foot operated log splitter. I could split one with my foot and another round with my Fiskars. Boom! Although I would probably miss with the Fiskars and split my shin in half.

Also, are you a 12v P pump driver?


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

turnkey4099 said:


> Regular chainsaw chaps takes care of the of shins...when you wear them that is. It is the second part I tend to forget when fooling around the woodpile.
> 
> Harry K



Awesome, one less thing to lug around. I need to find the best budget chaps.



aarolar said:


> Y'all think way to much about splitting a piece of wood just pick up the closest maul or axe and hit the damn thing if it don't bust back up and try something else.



lmao. I used to think I over thought things way too much until I found this site.


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## woodchuck357 (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Just used my cheapo axe. Works good, i just suck


Keep swinging, you will get better.
Concentrate on where the strike should land and repeat often enough and the muscle memory will take over.
I was splitting a few evenings ago and just kept swinging as it got dark. I split several rounds after it was full dark without a mislick.
There may be an article called Zen and the Art of Splitting.


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## 513yj (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> You're not talking about those manual hydraulic splitters right?
> 
> Also, are you a 12v P pump driver?



No, I saved up some money and bought a 27 ton DHT which has been a great investment. And yes I have one of the P7100 engines with a few adjustments. I want to buy a newer one with a quad cab due to family size expansion last year but I have to get done with the next couple semesters so I can work more. Might get a 24V and drive it till it dumps and swap in my 12V.


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## Marshy (Nov 17, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> No... you should refresh yourself with Mr. Newton's laws... specifically the Law of Conservation of Momentum (derived from Newton's Third Law of Motion).
> 
> It states the total momentum of a closed system does not change. This means that when two objects collide the total momentum of the objects before the collision is the same as the total momentum of the objects after the collision (a stationary object has zero momentum).
> 
> ...


 
I dont feel like this conversation is going to change your skewed outlook on how the world of physics actually works. One post your in left field asking where all the extra energy went in the example, which I explained, and in another post you seem to be able to explain the correct understanding of Newton's law. Good day to you.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

513yj said:


> No, I saved up some money and bought a 27 ton DHT which has been a great investment. And yes I have one of the P7100 engines with a few adjustments. I want to buy a newer one with a quad cab due to family size expansion last year but I have to get done with the next couple semesters so I can work more. Might get a 24V and drive it till it dumps and swap in my 12V.



I've been reading about those engines. Didn't know anything about diesels so I researched it. The 12v sounds like the perfect wood hauling motor. Reliable and easy to fix.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Heres my old 24v


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## 513yj (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> The 12v sounds like the perfect wood hauling motor.



I couldn't see myself going back to a gasser after owning this thing.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*One post your in left field asking where all the extra energy went in the example, which I explained, and in another post you seem to be able to explain the correct understanding of Newton's law.*_


BU!!$H!T... left field my azz.

In that same post when I asked where all that extra energy went, I specifically stated it didn't go anywhere because it never existed (as "energy").
Your explanation confuses kinetic energy with energy, and I simply pointed out the error by using one of Newton's Laws of Motion... which, I'll also point out you brought up in error.
I ain't stating the correct "understanding" of Newton's Law... I'm simply stating what Newton's Law says (or what the law derived from it says).

Your major error is equating _*kinetic*_ energy with energy, they are two completely different things that can not be used interchangeably... but you don't understand that.

So don't try and put it off as me having a "skewed" outlook on how the world(?) of physics actually works... you're the one in error.
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Heres my old 24v



Nice truck. You still have it? 

How did the splitting go? Did the single bit get stuck a lot? 



513yj said:


> I couldn't see myself going back to a gasser after owning this thing.



Once I work from home I'm getting myself a big ole 1 ton diesel. I don't have to worry about fuel prices and I can load it up with firewood, to an extent. 

Anyone else think it's hilarious these two guys are still arguing about physics?


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## benp (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Nice truck. You still have it?
> 
> How did the splitting go? Did the single bit get stuck a lot?
> 
> ...



You've seen Big Bang Theory right? Let it go.

That being said I loved Electromagnetic and Nuclear Physics. The only two things I could wrap my head around.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

513yj said:


> I couldn't see myself going back to a gasser after owning this thing.


I did. Have 2 gassers now.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Nice truck. You still have it?
> 
> How did the splitting go? Did the single bit get stuck a lot?
> 
> ...


No i sold it for 3k after the 2nd billet trans blew up. I wasnt going to drop another 5k on a trans. I miss it but, im starting on my ranger with a 5.0 that would probably eat that trucks lunch LOL

It did get stuck, im not sure whats causing it. But i did get some wood split.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> No i sold it for 3k after the 2nd billet trans blew up. I wasnt going to drop another 5k on a trans. I miss it but, im starting on my ranger with a 5.0 that would probably eat that trucks lunch LOL
> 
> It did get stuck, im not sure whats causing it. But i did get some wood split.



Just buy a Ford Lightning and call it a day. 

I could only split small rounds with a single bit axe. I'm sure people use them to split but I sucked with it.


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## zogger (Nov 17, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> I did. Have 2 gassers now.



Wimmin go crazee for a chain..saw..man....

Worked a tradeshow once, saw Eliminator there in a display


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 17, 2014)

zogger said:


> Wimmin go crazee for a chain..saw..man....
> 
> Worked a tradeshow once, saw Eliminator there in a display


My favorite band of all time. Love ZZtop


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## Philbert (Nov 17, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> I'm sure people use them to split but I sucked with it.


Maybe we should start you out slow with one of these?

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 17, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Maybe we should start you out slow with one of these?
> 
> Philbert




Interesting. Why am I starting out slow with one of those? I've split wood before. That would be kind of cool for my wife, if I can get her to use it.


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2014)

(Deep breath)
OK Marshy, let's forget bout the 3 ounce billiard ball completely.
Let's increase the velocity of the 6 ounce ball from 20 FPS to 40 FPS... which doubles its momentum, but quadruples its kinetic energy. So if the kinetic energy has quadrupled, why does the velocity of the struck ball only increase by the amount equal to the increase of momentum in the striking ball?? Why isn't the velocity of the struck ball quadrupled, or even tripled, or even increased a tiny bit over double??

The answer is because kinetic energy is not used to move the struck ball, momentum is. Kinetic energy does not have a "directional force" like momentum, or velocity, or acceleration... it's more akin to vibration, or magnitude. The result of greater kinetic energy is a higher frequency... the sound you hear when the balls collide is higher pitched and/or louder, but it doesn't affect the linear velocity of either.

Sometimes this higher frequency translates to greater shock (like tissue damage from a high velocity bullet), which can aid in splitting wood, especially relatively easy to split wood... but without at least some certain amount of momentum, shock is worthless (you need the penetration first). Like was stated by someone else in this thread... "I've never tried splitting wood with a tennis ball."
*


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## 513yj (Nov 18, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> I miss it but, im starting on my ranger with a 5.0 that would probably eat that trucks lunch LOL



It might be faster yes. Just like the chevy and ford v-8 diesels might be faster off the line. But when one ponders the question of what engine configuration do semi trucks use for pulling the mountains out west the answer is inline 6 cylinder. Cain't none of the 8 cyl diesels hold the speed of a load up a hill like a Cummins.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 18, 2014)

513yj said:


> It might be faster yes. Just like the chevy and ford v-8 diesels might be faster off the line. But when one ponders the question of what engine configuration do semi trucks use for pulling the mountains out west the answer is inline 6 cylinder. Cain't none of the 8 cyl diesels hold the speed of a load up a hill like a Cummins.


I drive a truck. C15 550hp non acert i know what power is sonny boy

Cat made a 3408 which was a v8 big truck engine and it was a pulling mofo btw


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## 513yj (Nov 18, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Cat made a 3408 which was a v8 big truck engine and it was a pulling mofo btw



The key word in this phrase is made, as in past tense. I'm also not saying you don't know what power is but I know staying power is best held by inline engines.

These are just my opinions of course.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 18, 2014)

513yj said:


> The key word in this phrase is made, as in past tense. I'm also not saying you don't know what power is but I know staying power is best held by inline engines.
> 
> These are just my opinions of course.


Wasnt emission friendly...... Glad you like your dodge. Glad i wont be towing with the Ranger.


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## 513yj (Nov 18, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Wasnt emission friendly...... Glad you like your dodge. Glad i wont be towing with the Ranger.



You probably can't tow with that Ranger anyhow since the front wheels will prolly be off the ground 30% of the time!


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## Ambull01 (Nov 18, 2014)

From axes to physics to diesel trucks lol. This site is about as ADD/ADHD as I am.


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## Idahonative (Nov 18, 2014)

Don't let people (or spiders) try to fool you into thinking this thread is complicated. All you really need in your arsenal when it comes to splitting wood by hand is a sledge, a wedge, and a Fiskars X27. End of story.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 18, 2014)

Idahonative said:


> Don't let people (or spiders) try to fool you into thinking this thread is complicated. All you really need in your arsenal when it comes to splitting wood by hand is a sledge, a wedge, and a Fiskars X27. End of story.



Well I'm almost there if that's the case. Just ordered my X27, should be here this week. I have some nice sized rounds to test them on. I'll get the Council Tool 6# maul once my wife's memory fades about buying the Fiskars. Wedges are stuck in a stump in my yard. Some genius decided to pound them in until there was no hope in getting them out with a chisel. Promise, it wasn't me. Was there when I bought this house.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 19, 2014)

Ya fiskars ill probably order as well. Only bad thing about this single bit, it gets stuck alot!!!


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Well I'm almost there if that's the case. Just ordered my X27, should be here this week. I have some nice sized rounds to test them on. I'll get the Council Tool 6# maul once my wife's memory fades about buying the Fiskars. Wedges are stuck in a stump in my yard. Some genius decided to pound them in until there was no hope in getting them out with a chisel. Promise, it wasn't me. Was there when I bought this house.




Well, split what ya want, but I would suggest starting with smaller rounds, put inside a tire and up on a fat cookie splitting block. Get your swing and aim down first and be careful, easy to blow through a round and swing through and hit something interesting that you don't want to.

Most of the time, I stand feet apart, straight at the round, axe straight up and back overhead, swing down to my aim point with some gusto and drop my knees a scosh to add a bit more focus and speed as it gets there.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 19, 2014)

Take your shirt off as well, and always have a Marlboro lit


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> (Deep breath)
> OK Marshy, let's forget bout the 3 ounce billiard ball completely.
> Let's increase the velocity of the 6 ounce ball from 20 FPS to 40 FPS... which doubles its momentum, but quadruples its kinetic energy. So if the kinetic energy has quadrupled, why does the velocity of the struck ball only increase by the amount equal to the increase of momentum in the striking ball?? Why isn't the velocity of the struck ball quadrupled, or even tripled, or even increased a tiny bit over double??
> 
> ...


 


Focus on what he sais at 3:00 in the video. Enough said.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Ya fiskars ill probably order as well. Only bad thing about this single bit, it gets stuck alot!!!



Yeah man, thought that would happen. Probably only good for small rounds. Guess you could noodle the bigger stuff then split it with the axe. I like to cut everything then go crazy with splitting though. Having to switch from chainsaw to splitting apparatus. 



zogger said:


> Well, split what ya want, but I would suggest starting with smaller rounds, put inside a tire and up on a fat cookie splitting block. Get your swing and aim down first and be careful, easy to blow through a round and swing through and hit something interesting that you don't want to.
> 
> Most of the time, I stand feet apart, straight at the round, axe straight up and back overhead, swing down to my aim point with some gusto and drop my knees a scosh to add a bit more focus and speed as it gets there.



You're making it sound like the Fiskars will blow through rounds like a hot knife in butter. Hope that's the case. I've hit my shin with the side of a maul before. Didn't feel too great. 

I naturally stand feet apart, feels more stable. You lift the axe straight up? I've always swung up it back over right shoulder then straight down.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Yeah man, thought that would happen. Probably only good for small rounds. Guess you could noodle the bigger stuff then split it with the axe. I like to cut everything then go crazy with splitting though. Having to switch from chainsaw to splitting apparatus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at the fiskars review on YouTube. It blows thru alot of stuff honestly.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Focus on what he sais at 3:00 in the video. Enough said.*_


What-the-he!! does that have to do with what we were talkin' about??
He's talkin' about two separate masses, both in motion, powered by the same force, at the same time, and during the same time frame‼

At 3 minutes in, he says energy is the product of force times distance... that's true. But in the case of our billiard balls, the force is applied to only one ball, by the cue stick, and for only a short (very short) distance. As the cue ball glides across the table, there is no force applied to it (or, more correctly, work being done on it)... it is momentum that carries it across the table. The distance (or time) it glides across the table is not part of the equation... period‼

When the cue ball strikes the stationary ball, the force of momentum pushes on the stationary ball for very brief moment in time and/or distance (and the stationary ball pushes back with it's momentum of zero). Now, remember, force is not energy... energy expended (work) is the product of force and distance (which may, or may not be, measured by time), which is equal to the (in this case) kinetic energy (W=Fd=Ek). With the billiard balls, the principle of Conservation of Momentum applies, the momentum of one is transferred to the other, the stationary ball has zero momentum before the collision, but acquires the momentum of the moving ball after... and the moving ball acquires the zero momentum of the other.

So let's go back to the 3 ounce ball moving at 40 FPS striking the stationary 6 ounce ball. If the strike is square, the 6 ounce ball moves away from the collision at (almost) 20 FPS because the force acting (working) on it is the momentum... energy is not force, but momentum is. The kinetic energy that the 6 ounce ball acquires is the product of force (momentum) and distance (or time), the kinetic energy of the moving ball *is not* part of the equation... period‼ Which is exactly what was stated 3 minutes into your video. And the striking ball?? Well, the force acting (working) on it at the collision was the momentum of the stationary ball (zero momentum)... and the product of zero force and anything equals zero kinetic energy. Also exactly what was stated 3 minutes into your video.

Now I know I said that kinetic energy didn't really exist, but that's not entirely true... I was playing with words to make a point. Kinetic energy is a scalar quantity, not a vector like momentum... kinetic energy has no directional force (it ain't a force at all). And if energy, no matter its form, can not be created nor destroyed, and only half of the energy possessed by the 3 ounce ball was transferred to the 6 ounce ball... where did the other half go?? Well the other part of that physics law is that energy can be converted... the other half of that kinetic energy was converted into several forms, such as sound energy, heat energy at impact, vibration, and whatnot. There ain't any such thing as a truly "closed system" (on this planet anyway)... there will always be loss of energy through conversions, as well as some loss of momentum (or force). That's why I said, "(almost) 20 FPS."

So how does all of this apply to splitting wood??
Well, you can claim all the kinetic energy you want... but the *force* acting (working) to split the wood is momentum ('cause energy is not force)... there is also, or should be, at least some force from the user at impact.
I can shoot a small steel wedge (or steel core bullet) from a gun at several thousand feet per second, and it would carry an awesome amount of kinetic energy... but it won't split the log.

Enough said.
*


----------



## Chris-PA (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Well, you can claim all the kinetic energy you want... but the *force* acting (working) to split the wood is momentum ('cause energy is not force)... there is also, or should be, at least some force from the user at impact.


I've stayed out of the billiard ball discussion as it is not a correct analogy and a distraction.

Your use of terms is all over the map - now we're on to force. OK then! Energy flows are the source of all work done and forces that are applied. There can be none of that without the flow of energy. Here ( http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/energy/u5l1d.cfm ) is a fairly good explanation of a similar system:

_"A hammer is a tool that utilizes mechanical energy to do work. The mechanical energy of a hammer gives the hammer its ability to apply a force to a nail in order to cause it to be displaced. Because the hammer has mechanical energy (in the form of kinetic energy), it is able to do work on the nail. Mechanical energy is the ability to do work."_

The potential energy (chemical energy) in your muscles is is transferred to the axe/maul as kinetic energy (mechanical energy). From the tool the mechanical energy (in the form of KE) is transferred to the block of wood at impact, where is does work. Work has the same units as energy, and in this case is essentially the change in kinetic energy of the moving tool. Work is force * distance, so that means that force times distance = the change in KE of the moving tool. Rearranging that you get F = KE/d, so if the tool stops in a short distance, and the KE was high, then you get a lot of force which hopefully breaks the fiber bonds and splits the wood.

But all of it depends on transferring KE to the tool, which goes back to my original statement you disagreed with. 

It is all about transferring energy, and you have not yet explained how the energy gets from your muscles to the wood block where it can do work. In fact you have said that it cannot be transferred by the tool - and yet somehow forces are applied to the wood bock. The reality is that the transfer of energy and the relationship betwen energy and force is already defined, and you don't get to make up new rules.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Look at the fiskars review on YouTube. It blows thru alot of stuff honestly.



Looks great. Did you see the video of that guy splitting a mass of rounds with a rope or something around it? Raced against the clock. I have to look for it again.


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## BeatCJ (Nov 19, 2014)

Idahonative said:


> All you really need in your arsenal when it comes to splitting wood by hand is a sledge, a wedge, and a Fiskars X27. End of story.


I would say two or three wedges, but I split 10 cords last month and only used the wedges on about 10 rounds, only needed two one time. Probably would have been easier to roll it back up and noodle it, but I had the maul in my hand. It was a 40" diameter bigleaf maple stump round. And I suspect you could substitute an ax for the Fiskars and be just fine. I have a 6 lb maul, a 3 1/2 lb double bit ax and two 2 1/2 lb axes, 3 steel wedges and can split anything I have ever encountered. I will probably get a Fiskars to try eventually, I am intrigued.



Ambull01 said:


> You lift the ax straight up? I've always swung up it back over right shoulder then straight down.


Yes, ergonomically, it expends less energy to thrust the maul straight up, then start it down. If you are using a maul or sledge on a wedge, if you get bounce and can translate the momentum into a big roundhouse, then it can make sense to let the hammering device get behind the vertical plane. Wish I could remember where I saw the study.

So much arguing...


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> What-the-he!! does that have to do with what we were talkin' about??
> He's talkin' about two separate masses, both in motion, powered by the same force, at the same time, and during the same time frame‼
> 
> At 3 minutes in, he says energy is the product of force times distance... that's true. But in the case of our billiard balls, the force is applied to only one ball, by the cue stick, and for only a short (very short) distance. As the cue ball glides across the table, there is no force applied to it (or, more correctly, work being done on it)... it is momentum that carries it across the table. The distance (or time) it glides across the table is not part of the equation... period‼
> ...


Spidy, your missing a lot of my point and a lot of how momentum and kinetic energy is transfered. Your only considering half of the equation/theory. I agree with your first half of your post up until you try to explain what is happening with the balls colliding. Kinetic energy is comprised of an objects momentum. Momentum is mass x velocity and kenitic energy is 0.5 x mass x velocity squared. You cant predict final velocity of two obkects colliding without considering momentum AND kinetic energy. Its called conservation of linear momentum and elastic collision and it uses both momentum and kinetick ernergy. 

A 3 oz ball moving at 40 fps has twice as much kinetic energy as a 6 oz ball moving at 20 fps but their momentum is the same.

If the 3 oz ball moving at 40 fps collides with a 6 oz ball that is 0 fps then the proper approach to finding the final velocity of the balls is to combine conservation of momentum AND conservation of energy. Linear impulse of two objects defines how the objects react. As we both agree, the total amount of momentum is conserved. Thats is, the 6oz ball will travel 13.3 fps in the direction the 3oz ball was traveling in. After colusion, the 3 oz ball will actually travel 6.6 fps in the oposite direction. "The other half" of kinetic energy is not dissipated as heat and noise, those are minor losses that can be ignored and still get accurate predictions on final velocity post collision.

If you'd like to make a post to debate this further we can do that. I'd suggest the political forum where bickering is encouraged.

Please read this before you do though...

http://www.sparknotes.com/physics/linearmomentum/collisions/section1.rhtml#1d


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## Idahonative (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> What-the-he!! does that have to do with what we were talkin' about??
> He's talkin' about two separate masses, both in motion, powered by the same force, at the same time, and during the same time frame‼
> 
> At 3 minutes in, he says energy is the product of force times distance... that's true. But in the case of our billiard balls, the force is applied to only one ball, by the cue stick, and for only a short (very short) distance. As the cue ball glides across the table, there is no force applied to it (or, more correctly, work being done on it)... it is momentum that carries it across the table. The distance (or time) it glides across the table is not part of the equation... period‼
> ...



Spidey, if you could split wood as good as you run your mouth we would all bow down and worship you as THE wood splitting God. But you don't so we won't. The conversation is about axes and wood splitting. No one cares about the boring garbage of which you speak of. Sorry if that sounds unkind


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Yeah man, thought that would happen. Probably only good for small rounds. Guess you could noodle the bigger stuff then split it with the axe. I like to cut everything then go crazy with splitting though. Having to switch from chainsaw to splitting apparatus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ya, that's a heavy maul swing. Not needed with the fiskars plus it is safer/more effective (for me anyway) to do the straight on approach and overhead straight down swing. I looked but couldn't find the official fiskars vid with their spokesmodel splitting that way. too many fiskars vids on utoober now.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

BeatCJ said:


> I would say two or three wedges, but I split 10 cords last month and only used the wedges on about 10 rounds, only needed two one time. Probably would have been easier to roll it back up and noodle it, but I had the maul in my hand. It was a 40" diameter bigleaf maple stump round. And I suspect you could substitute an ax for the Fiskars and be just fine. I have a 6 lb maul, a 3 1/2 lb double bit ax and two 2 1/2 lb axes, 3 steel wedges and can split anything I have ever encountered. I will probably get a Fiskars to try eventually, I am intrigued.
> 
> Yes, ergonomically, it expends less energy to thrust the maul straight up, then start it down. If you are using a maul or sledge on a wedge, if you get bounce and can translate the momentum into a big roundhouse, then it can make sense to let the hammering device get behind the vertical plane. Wish I could remember where I saw the study.
> 
> So much arguing...



I definitely need more than one wedge. I've had two wedges stuck in a round before. Had to flip it over and beat the crap out of it to get the wedges out. Another wedge would have come in handy. 

What do you use the double bit axes for?

Hmm, I have to test that swing. It seems like it would be harder to lift the maul/axe straight and over your head since your hands would probably have to hold the handle at the end vs sliding your top hand up the handle as you would with the over shoulder strike. How do people swing those large carnival sledges when they try to hit the bell?


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> Ya, that's a heavy maul swing. Not needed with the fiskars plus it is safer/more effective (for me anyway) to do the straight on approach and overhead straight down swing. I looked but couldn't find the official fiskars vid with their spokesmodel splitting that way. too many fiskars vids on utoober now.



Okay I think I get it now. The Fiskars is wood's kryptonite. Swinging it predominately up and down lessens the chance of hitting the round at an angle or misjudging the strike which would make it kryptonite to the person holding said axe. I'll look for the video.


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## BeatCJ (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> What do you use the double bit axes for?


Splitting, limbing, popping rounds that don't get cut all the way, cutting brush, whatever. Just another tool, but it's heavier than my single bit axes.



Ambull01 said:


> Hmm, I have to test that swing. It seems like it would be harder to lift the maul/axe straight and over your head since your hands would probably have to hold the handle at the end vs sliding your top hand up the handle as you would with the over shoulder strike. How do people swing those large carnival sledges when they try to hit the bell?



Actually, you slide the handle through your upper hand, just do it with the handle pointed straight up.


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Looks great. Did you see the video of that guy splitting a mass of rounds with a rope or something around it? Raced against the clock. I have to look for it again.



There's one from an old member here doing a lot in a short time with the rope or bungee cord trick.



and here is a fiskars in good wood speed demo


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

BeatCJ said:


> Splitting, limbing, popping rounds that don't get cut all the way, cutting brush, whatever. Just another tool, but it's heavier than my single bit axes.
> Actually, you slide the handle through your upper hand, just do it with the handle pointed straight up.



lol. Sorry, I'm over thinking this way too much. Just hit the freaking log Ambull!

I was thinking you guys meant lift the axe straight up. That would be a little difficult to do while sliding your hand forward. If you lift it slightly above your left or right trapezius muscle then it sounds doable. Anyway, I'll shut up now.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> There's one from an old member here doing a lot in a short time with the rope or bungee cord trick.
> 
> 
> 
> and here is a fiskars in good wood speed demo




The second video is the one I mentioned! Thanks


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

BU!!$HIT Chris-PA,
Mechanical energy (which can be kinetic) *enables* an object to apply *a* force to another object.
Mechanical energy (which can be kinetic) *enables* an object to do work, through the application of *a* force.
Mechanical energy (which can be kinetic) does not drive the nail, the force of momentum does (there is a bit of force from the user at impact).
Kinetic energy is a scalar quantity only.
Quoting from your post...
_"The mechanical energy of a hammer gives the hammer its *ability* to apply a force to a nail_..."

The energy does not drive the nail. I could swing a ¼ gram hammer with all the energy I could muster, with both arms, until I was too tired to even lift the damn thing, and it still wouldn't have driven the nail... because energy does not equal force.
I ain't the one making up rules here.


Marshy,
You keep going back to elastic/inelastic collisions... and of two "moving" masses, particles no less. In an elastic collision the total kinetic energy of the two objects is conserved, in a perfectly inelastic collision the two objects stick together and the maximum amount of kinetic energy is lost (or converted), in a partially inelastic collision only some of the kinetic energy is lost (or converted).... but in all three collisions the total momentum is conserved.
The collision of two 6 ounce billiard balls is an elastic collision (or as close as we can get to it in the real world).
The collision of the 3 ounce and 6 ounce billiard balls is a (partially) inelastic collision.
And I quote from your link...
* "Inelastic Collisions *
_ So what if energy is not conserved? Our knowledge of such situations is more limited, since we no longer know what the kinetic energy is after the collision. However, even though kinetic energy is not conserved, *momentum will always be conserved*. This allows us to make some statements about inelastic collisions. Specifically, if we are given the masses of the particles, both initial velocities and one final velocity we can calculate the final velocity of the last particle...
In studying one-dimensional collisions *we are essentially applying the principle of conservation of momentum*._"

I just can't see how it can be more plain than that... it is flat impossible to end up with more momentum than you started with‼
*


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## Chris-PA (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> because energy does not equal force.


I never said that it did. I clearly wrote that force = work/distance, and that this is approximately equivalent to KE/distance. It was an equation, it is not something open to interpretation, and is obviously not the same as writing force = KE. 

Note that distance in the above statement distance is really supposed to be displacement, which is a vector and supplies the direction. I did this because distance is the magnitude of the displacement vector and it is clear that the force is applied perpendicular to the wood block, but then things get complicated by the shape of the splitting tool head and how the force is directed into splitting the wood - all of which is irrelevant to the fact that the energy to drive those forces comes from your muscles, and can be measured precisely by the mass and the square of the velocity of the tool at impact. 

The conversation is silly - no one else is really interested, you are mixing up and mis-using terms and cannot even accept basic principles of physics that have been worked out for some several hundred years. I'm out.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> *The conversation is silly - no one else is really interested*.



Amen Chris. Amen.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> _*force = work/distance, and that this is approximately equivalent to KE/distance.*_


That is totally incorrect... ya' better recheck Newton's second law of motion.
Force is the product of mass and acceleration (f=ma).

Potential energy = force x distance (well, sort'a, it would be height, not distance, for gravitational potential energy... and you still need the gravitational field strength of earth in the calculation)... so potential energy/distance (sort'a) gives us an expression for the expected force (but that ain't the calculation... you need more, which depends on the type of potential energy).
But kinetic energy and potential energy are two different things... a object possesses kinetic energy due to its motion, an object possesses potential energy because of its position, such as gravitational (a ball on top of a ramp), or elastic (a stretched rubber band), or electric (a charged battery).

*


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## Idahonative (Nov 19, 2014)

I beg you people...PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE SPIDER!!!


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Spidy, do you have formal education (i.e. a degree)?


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> There's one from an old member here doing a lot in a short time with the rope or bungee cord trick.
> 
> 
> 
> and here is a fiskars in good wood speed demo



I would use a fiskars all the time too if my firewood was like that. Is that some kind of pine? My 12 yr old daughter could split that wood. Much of the wood I split is not conducive to using a light weight fiskars. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place but so many people on here consider it "the end all say all".


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I would use a fiskars all the time too if my firewood was like that. Is that some kind of pine? My 12 yr old daughter could split that wood. Much of the wood I split is not conducive to using a light weight fiskars. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place but so many people on here consider it "the end all say all".


 I split 6-7 full cord of wood per year with a Fiskar for the past 2 years. All of it is hardwood. Elm, hard maple, black cherry, soft maple and probably others. I've used it in oak, course that pops like a balloon anyways... works fine untill you start getting into wood >24". All of my wood is 18-20" length, green or seasoned. My heavy maul has no handle anymore, its just one more wedge to pound with the sledge when the Fiskar fails to split it...


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> I split 6-7 full cord of wood per year with a Fiskar for the past 2 years. All of it is hardwood. Elm, hard maple, black cherry, soft maple and probably others. I've used it in oak, course that pops like a balloon anyways... works fine untill you start getting into wood >24". All of my wood is 18-20" length, green or seasoned. My heavy maul has no handle anymore, its just one more wedge to pound with the sledge when the Fiskar fails to split it...


I split about the same amount and maybe more but I haven't had my X27 for all that long. It just doesn't seem to bust up the rounds like my old 8 lb maul did. Who knows, maybe it will grow on me especially now with the addition of the hydraulic splitter I can use the fiskars on the straight grained "easy" stuff. I guess I was surprised at how unimpressive it was considering all the hype it gets.


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I would use a fiskars all the time too if my firewood was like that. Is that some kind of pine? My 12 yr old daughter could split that wood. Much of the wood I split is not conducive to using a light weight fiskars. I'm not saying it doesn't have its place but so many people on here consider it "the end all say all".



I don't think anyone has said that. What's been stated by a lot of guys is in their wood, they can get a lot done without resorting to a heavier maul, etc. I know I have stated many times I have multiple tools and use all of them. I have posted pics of them. In any wood that is straight grained and splits easy, you can rip it up with a fiskars, or other lighter weight axe, something that isn't an 8lb maul..

As to the guys splitting, they split what is in their locale, what they burn. It's the demonstration of both the rope/bungee trick and actually how fast you can go in *good wood*. 

Approximately 1/3rd of my eastern mixed species wood is easy, 1/3 starts to suck but is still doable with the fiskars, then the rest is a crapshoot. Some defies even sledge and wedge and needs to be noodled. Some, half the round is easy splitting, but on the other side it isn't, etc.

It's like saws, no one saw is gonna do all jobs all the time.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Spidy, do you have formal education (i.e. a degree)?*_


Nope... dropped out during the 10th grade.
Why do you ask??
*


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Nope... dropped out during the 10th grade.
> Why do you ask??
> *


 
Why do you think? Your arguing with individuals who have degrees in the engineering field who have formal training of the subject, who have spent many hours actually putting numbers to paper and using the equations, not someone who just reads something on the internet and regurgitates it. 

2 pool balls colliding is about as close as it gets to modeling a perfectly elastic collision... never mind, its not worth it.


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 19, 2014)

Jesus christ, shut up already!!


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> *It's like saws, no one saw is gonna do all jobs all the time*.



Is that what you tell your wife to explain your obsession?


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## PLMCRZY (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Why do you think? Your arguing with individuals who have degrees in the engineering field who have formal training of the subject, who have spent many hours actually putting numbers to paper and using the equations, not someone who just reads something on the internet and regurgitates it.
> 
> 2 pool balls colliding is about as close as it gets to modeling a perfectly elastic collision... never mind, its not worth it.


Engineers are some of the dumbest mfers ive ever met. I deal with them daily dont pull that card. Btw i have a high school diploma.... I know you would ask.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Your arguing with individuals who have degrees in the engineering field... not someone who just reads something on the internet and regurgitates it.*_


Well, you've been quoting web pages not me...
My arguments come from studying Einstein's theories of relativity, and where it leads me (such as Newton and his predecessors)... not the internet.
And if I held any stock in a degree, I'd have stayed in school... so, like was said, "don't pull that card."

OK PLMCRZY, with the pullin' of that card... I'll shut up now.
If someone sees you as less than equal, or unworthy of consideration... they see you as wrong, even if you're right.
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

Engineers are okay. I've met some dumb ones and some really smart ones. Just like most career fields. Now scientists on the other hand. Most are really smart. A lot of them are weird as hell though.


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

PLMCRZY said:


> Jesus christ, shut up already!!


 I can P*ss on your thread as I please. Thats the joy of the internet. Besides, I am still talking about axes.


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Well, you've been quoting web pages not me...
> My arguments come from studying Einstein's theories of relativity, and where it leads me (such as Newton and his predecessors)... not the internet.
> And if I held any stock in a degree, I'd have stayed in school... so, like was said, "don't pull that card."
> 
> ...


 
I'm not "pulling a card". I actually opened my old text to refresh my memory as its not something I use daily. I dont go around touting my education to put other people down and I dont judge poeple on their education (formal or not) and I mean no disrespect. I provided you the links so that you realize I'm not pulling this from my arse and my points are valid and I'm not taking parts of proven theory and making my own argument like you seem to be doing. If it sounds like Im copying web sites it's because those sites say the same thing my text books say. Hmmm


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Hey, I have no problem letting this go. I'll agree to disagree, not like im out to get a notch in my belt. Besides, this will all get buried 12 more pages about of Fiskars are the only true axe that can split wood and they are way superior over those wooden handled cave tools that our ancestors used.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

*LOL*
What is it I've said before?? Oh yeah...
This is the internet, I can be whatever I wanna' be 

Did I tell you guys I have a Fiskars X27 and a 8# maul??
I don't use the X27 much... it won't split the Bur Oak and elm I cut most worth sour owl squat. It ain't all that great on the ash, cheery and hard maple either. I used it the most on some walnut and Silver Maple I cut... seemed to slice right through that. But to be fair, I do the vast majority of my splitting with hydraulics. I'll sometimes grab the X27 or the maul (depending) to make smaller splits from larger ones... to build a cooking fire in the fire pit.
*


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## lone wolf (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Hey, I have no problem letting this go. I'll agree to disagree, not like im out to get a notch in my belt. Besides, this will all get buried 12 more pages about of Fiskars are the only true axe that can split wood and they are way superior over those wooden handled cave tools that our ancestors used.


Wait you are a pro Fiskars man? You think a lighter Fiskers will bust better than a heavier Maul like 8 lb?


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> *LOL*
> What is it I've said before?? Oh yeah...
> This is the internet, I can be whatever I wanna' be
> 
> ...


 
Maybe we should talk about angular momentum some. It sounds like your swinging that X-27 like a Sally. Maybe the other half of the Kinetic energy is lost to your girly grunting lol.


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Wait you are a pro Fiskars man? You think a lighter Fiskers will bust better than a heavier Maul like 8 lb?


 
Thats my main tool to help heat my home. Anything I cant spit with it gets partially noodled or fully noodled to movable chunks. If I cant split it noodled when green I will wait for it to season and then have no issues with the X27.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 19, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Wait you are a pro Fiskars man? You think a lighter Fiskers will bust better than a heavier Maul like 8 lb?


I don't have a fiskars - I bought one for my Dad and used it a fair amount. I found it underwhelming, but that's because I already split most of my wood with axes and it's just not much different - probably no diffrrent once the teflon wears off. 

I also have an 8lb maul and use it when I have to - but mostly the other side for driving wedges. And several other tools, as Zogger said. Different face angles and head shapes have varying effect on different wood spieces. With the wood types I'm used to splitting I can pretty much tell what tool I'll need.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Maybe we should talk about angular momentum...*_


Oh lordy... NO‼
That would lead to discussing a child's spinning top toy... then gyroscopes... then midway rides at the fair... then to imparting spin and "english" on a billiard ball  ...
My lord... where would it all end??
*


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## ray benson (Nov 19, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Oh lordy... NO‼
> That would lead to discussing a child's spinning top toy... then gyroscopes... then midway rides at the fair... then to imparting spin and "english" on a billiard ball  ...
> My lord... where would it all end??
> *


Don't know but the conversation got me thinking about baseball bats. Hickory, ash and maple. They even had Roger Maris years ago hitting with different weight bats and charted the distance of each weight of bat. Believe he hit the farthest with the heaviest bat but preferred the lighter bat.


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Is that what you tell your wife to explain your obsession?




Long term girlfriend, doesn't matter.

Anyway, the conversation went like this. One small saw plan, tornado smashes house, need a big saw to deal with all the extra oak kicking around, ha!. Year later, and after joining this site, I have a bunch, she goes, "How many saws are you going to get"? I go "One hundred runners, and whatever are parts saws. By then I should know what I am doing repairing them and could open a shop if I needed another income, or, do a little on the side, whatever, another skill to learn well". 

Paraphrased, but the 100 runners is accurate. I slowed down a lot this year after I got robbed for a buncha good ones last year. Had them in the barn, bad idea.... Until I have better/more secure storage I am only grabbing gems, or taking freebie junkers.


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## Whitespider (Nov 19, 2014)

Careful ray benson... you're bordering on "feeding the spider."
*LOL*
*


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## zogger (Nov 19, 2014)

ray benson said:


> Don't know but the conversation got me thinking about baseball bats. Hickory, ash and maple. They even had Roger Maris years ago hitting with different weight bats and charted the distance of each weight of bat. Believe he hit the farthest with the heaviest bat but preferred the lighter bat.



Did he ever use an aluminum bat? I know not allowed in pro ball, just wondering his opinion on them and how they worked

(wooden handle versus synthetic, etc)


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## Marshy (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> Did he ever use an aluminum bat? I know not allowed in pro ball, just wondering his opinion on them and *how they worked*
> 
> (wooden handle versus synthetic, etc)


Inelastic collision. Do we need to visit that in more detail? Spidy knows more than he's leading on to. I think he's sitting back having a good chuckle.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 19, 2014)

zogger said:


> Long term girlfriend, doesn't matter.
> 
> Anyway, the conversation went like this. One small saw plan, tornado smashes house, need a big saw to deal with all the extra oak kicking around, ha!. Year later, and after joining this site, I have a bunch, she goes, "How many saws are you going to get"? I go "One hundred runners, and whatever are parts saws. By then I should know what I am doing repairing them and could open a shop if I needed another income, or, do a little on the side, whatever, another skill to learn well".
> 
> Paraphrased, but the 100 runners is accurate. I slowed down a lot this year after I got robbed for a buncha good ones last year. Had them in the barn, bad idea.... Until I have better/more secure storage I am only grabbing gems, or taking freebie junkers.



Yeah, tornadoes scare the crap out of me although I've never seen one. So you had a hundred saws collected? 

Whoever robbed you is a brave man. Robbing someone from the GA hills. Isn't that where Deliverance was filmed?


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## 513yj (Nov 19, 2014)

What in the F is going on here. I thought we were talking about diesels here


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## zogger (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Yeah, tornadoes scare the crap out of me although I've never seen one. So you had a hundred saws collected?
> 
> Whoever robbed you is a brave man. Robbing someone from the GA hills. Isn't that where Deliverance was filmed?



No, was working towards one hundred, have less than that and like I said, slowed down getting them. That was just a goal.

Deliverance was a couple counties over from here.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

513yj said:


> What in the F is going on here. I thought we were talking about diesels here


What do you have?


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## Whitespider (Nov 20, 2014)

ray benson said:


> _*...the conversation got me thinking about baseball bats. ...Roger Maris years ago hitting with different weight bats and charted the distance of each weight of bat. Believe he hit the farthest with the heaviest bat but preferred the lighter bat.*_



OK, now that I'm done antagonizing the engineers (in all seriousness... I'm not always sure why I do that).

Picking the weight of your splitting ax/maul is a lot like picking the weight of a baseball bat. It's a balance... a balance of weight (momentum), speed (kinetic energy), and accuracy. The likely reason Maris hit the ball farther with the heavier bat was due to impulse time (assuming bat speed was approximately the same)... the heavier bat, with it's greater momentum, stayed in contact with the ball longer, thereby transferring more of its momentum and energy to the ball. The likely reason Maris preferred the lighter bat was due to accuracy... he hit the ball into play more often with the lighter bat.

So (my opinion), as far as weight goes, a person should pick the heaviest ax/maul he can swing, without adversely giving up speed, but not so heavy that accuracy suffers. Just like a bat, a human can only swing an ax/maul so fast... at some point there is diminishing return, lighter won't be faster.

But there's more to it than weight, speed and accuracy... and that's the argument both Chris-PA and Marshy were making with me, it gets real complicated after that (and billiard balls ain't a comparison). The shape and angle(s) of the tool determine how/where/when the "force" is applied, how efficiently the "energy" is used. Even the length, width and height of the tool has to be considered... and the calculations (as though anyone cares) get long and complicated. And then there's the handle... shape, length, material, and whatnot. Your physical build and body strength come into play. I danced around all of that in the argument... on purpose... 'cause I'm an azz when I wanna' be 
Hopefully they won't stay mad, or irritated, too long.

I like an 8# maul because I swing it well, Chris-PA likes a 6# maul because he swings it faster than an 8#, Marshy likes a 4½# Fiskars because... well I I'm not sure about that one 
Anyway, we can argue about what's best all day long; but the truth is... you'll never know what works best for you until you try different weights and head shapes, in the type wood you split. Just because there's a bunch of Fiskars fans don't make it best for you... it might be... it might not be. Likely you'll find that the "best" thing is to have two, or three different tools... depending on what you're splitting (in truth, most of the guys do).
*


----------



## 513yj (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> What do you have?



Hard to answer this but it's either a lousy sense of humor or a 95 12V cummins with slight mechanical adjustments.


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## ray benson (Nov 20, 2014)

I like the 8lb. maul. if it gets stuck I hit it with a 6lb sledge one-handed. Or use an 8lb sledge with different sized wedges. Used to do all my wood manually. Once I got the splitter, the maul and wedges are used to break the wood into manageable pieces for the splitter.


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## flotek (Nov 20, 2014)

Mmmmm I guess I'll tell you about axes . There's a very expensive one called fiskars it comes with magic blend of koolaid the owner drinks this and falls in love with the tool and writes testimonials singing it's praises ...For everyone else we realized it's just a mediocre hand tool that costs triple the price


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## Whitespider (Nov 20, 2014)

I feel cheated, even if it was a gift... I didn't get the Kool-Aid with mine.
I'm bettin' the gift giver drank it...
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

flotek said:


> Mmmmm I guess I'll tell you about axes . There's a very expensive one called fiskars it comes with magic blend of koolaid the owner drinks this and falls in love with the tool and writes testimonials singing it's praises ...For everyone else we realized it's just a mediocre hand tool that costs triple the price



Wellll, Fiskars just arrived today. I tried it out on some pine. Split through it easily. I tried it on some other rounds and wasn't too impressed. 

That's the problem with such high expectations, reality sets in. Shoulda, woulda, coulda got a Council Tool maul. Ahhh!!! Of course it could just mean I'm weak, rusty, etc.

The X27 actually bounced off the round a few times. Got the blade to sink into the corners pretty dead but that round refused to give. I will continue to pour out my hate onto it.


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## svk (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Wellll, Fiskars just arrived today. I tried it out on some pine. Split through it easily. I tried it on some other rounds and wasn't too impressed.
> 
> That's the problem with such high expectations, reality sets in. Shoulda, woulda, coulda got a Council Tool maul. Ahhh!!! Of course it could just mean I'm weak, rusty, etc.
> 
> The X27 actually bounced off the round a few times. Got the blade to sink into the corners pretty dead but that round refused to give. I will continue to pour out my hate onto it.


There's no silver bullet....split a couple cords with it and see if it grows on you. If not throw it on the sale forum and try something else. Remember a light axe needs speed to be successful.


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## svk (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Wellll, Fiskars just arrived today. I tried it out on some pine. Split through it easily. I tried it on some other rounds and wasn't too impressed.
> 
> That's the problem with such high expectations, reality sets in. Shoulda, woulda, coulda got a Council Tool maul. Ahhh!!! Of course it could just mean I'm weak, rusty, etc.
> 
> The X27 actually bounced off the round a few times. Got the blade to sink into the corners pretty dead but that round refused to give. I will continue to pour out my hate onto it.


Can't remember if you've ever mentioned how much splitting you've done in your life. There's different techniques to split tougher wood like working your way around the outside. Trying to whack it in half always won't always work.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

svk said:


> There's no silver bullet....split a couple cords with it and see if it grows on you. If not throw it on the sale forum and try something else. Remember a light axe needs speed to be successful.



Will do. It did go through two pine rounds at once. I used one pine round as a splitting platform and put another on top. Both done one whack, too easy. That other stuff is one tough SOB. I almost got through some larger stuff so I'm hoping this tough crap turns out to be sweet gum or something. I'll have to identify the bark. 



svk said:


> Can't remember if you've ever mentioned how much splitting you've done in your life. There's different techniques to split tougher wood like working your way around the outside. Trying to whack it in half always won't always work.



I don't have a whole lot of experience. Used to do it everyday for my grandfather as a teenager before I went into the Marines. Then I used to split as exercise when I boxed. 
On the bigger stuff I hit the ends. Used to just hit everything right in the middle but found that led to a lot of stuck mauls and occasional handle on wood hits when it eventually split.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 20, 2014)

ray benson said:


> I like the 8lb. maul. if it gets stuck I hit it with a 6lb sledge one-handed. Or use an 8lb sledge with different sized wedges. Used to do all my wood manually. Once I got the splitter, the maul and wedges are used to break the wood into manageable pieces for the splitter.


Dual wield mauls - hadn't thought of that!


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

svk said:


> Can't remember if you've ever mentioned how much splitting you've done in your life. There's different techniques to split tougher wood like working your way around the outside. Trying to whack it in half always won't always work.



Just tried it on the biggest round. Went through it. Starting to love it already lol. The other rounds are some tough stuff. If I have to use wedges for each piece I'm going to throw it back into the woods.


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## flotek (Nov 20, 2014)

The fiskars is not junk however I found it to be only marginally better than a 16$ Collins axe .. The best axe is the one attached to a ram on a gas powered hydraulic splitter


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## zogger (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Wellll, Fiskars just arrived today. I tried it out on some pine. Split through it easily. I tried it on some other rounds and wasn't too impressed.
> 
> That's the problem with such high expectations, reality sets in. Shoulda, woulda, coulda got a Council Tool maul. Ahhh!!! Of course it could just mean I'm weak, rusty, etc.
> 
> The X27 actually bounced off the round a few times. Got the blade to sink into the corners pretty dead but that round refused to give. I will continue to pour out my hate onto it.



I find that is common with some of my wood, fresh cut green and no "checking" or cracks on the end yet. Once it starts cracking, it gets easier. tulip poplar I get is like that, brand new fresh it might just bounce. Freekin rubber wood. Wait a few weeks, splits real easy. I had some pine like that, dang stuff splashed sap, I mean splashed, when green and bounced off! Waited a long time, it split pretty easy. Mostly for the hardwoods around me, sweetgum and elm just suck. I might let them guys sit a full year until they are checked/cracked and the bark is off, then split them. It goes from impossible to doable with some effort and extra strikes. Up in the leveraxe thread is the piece of elm that defied everything, fiskars,husky axe, heavy maul, leveraxe, they all bounced off. Screw it, don't care, wait until next summer, try that elm again. 

Nice straight few branches redoak from inside the woods, always splits, green or dry. 

Species are different, as are individual trees from the same species.

That's one good thing about being years ahead, you can wait on some of the stuff.

Anyway, have fun with your new toy, split what ya can, move on. Eventually get a variety of edged wood manglers...


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> OK, now that I'm done antagonizing the engineers (in all seriousness... I'm not always sure why I do that).
> 
> Picking the weight of your splitting ax/maul is a lot like picking the weight of a baseball bat. It's a balance... a balance of weight (momentum), speed (kinetic energy), and accuracy. The likely reason Maris hit the ball farther with the heavier bat was due to impulse time (assuming bat speed was approximately the same)... the heavier bat, with it's greater momentum, stayed in contact with the ball longer, thereby transferring more of its momentum and energy to the ball. The likely reason Maris preferred the lighter bat was due to accuracy... he hit the ball into play more often with the lighter bat.
> 
> ...


Or you could just say that the 8 ponder is better because you already know this from experience


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

zogger said:


> I find that is common with some of my wood, fresh cut green and no "checking" or cracks on the end yet. Once it starts cracking, it gets easier. tulip poplar I get is like that, brand new fresh it might just bounce. Freekin rubber wood. Wait a few weeks, splits real easy. I had some pine like that, dang stuff splashed sap, I mean splashed, when green and bounced off! Waited a long time, it split pretty easy. Mostly for the hardwoods around me, sweetgum and elm just suck. I might let them guys sit a full year until they are checked/cracked and the bark is off, then split them. It goes from impossible to doable with some effort and extra strikes. Up in the leveraxe thread is the piece of elm that defied everything, fiskars,husky axe, heavy maul, leveraxe, they all bounced off. Screw it, don't care, wait until next summer, try that elm again.
> 
> Nice straight few branches redoak from inside the woods, always splits, green or dry.
> 
> ...



Yeah it's freshly cut. I didn't see any cracks on it either. You know what, it may be poplar. I was surprised how light it was considering they recently cut it down. This stuff is for next year or the year after so I have time lol. I'll just do a little at a time everyday. I LOVE splitting logs, almost as great as punching something. Total release of aggression/frustrations. It's also free.


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## svk (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Just tried it on the biggest round. Went through it. Starting to love it already lol. The other rounds are some tough stuff. If I have to use wedges for each piece I'm going to throw it back into the woods.


There's going to be some wood thatjust doesn't split; elm, etc. Cut it short enough to stick in the fireplace whole.


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## Erik B (Nov 20, 2014)

flotek said:


> The fiskars is not junk however I found it to be only marginally better than a 16$ Collins axe .. The best axe is the one attached to a ram on a gas powered hydraulic splitter


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

svk said:


> There's going to be some wood thatjust doesn't split; elm, etc. Cut it short enough to stick in the fireplace whole.



I wish I could. This round is kind of big. Probably 12" diameter or a little more.


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## svk (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> I wish I could. This round is kind of big. Probably 12" diameter or a little more.



You can always noodle. Makes a lot of mess but better than hitting it 100 times lol


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## benp (Nov 20, 2014)

The Council Tools PR60 6lb maul is back in stock at Bailey's. I just ordered one. 

I'm going to buff it like CT Yank described and attempt to put it through it's paces. 

If the handle holds up to my wayward ways, my main concern is shock transmission to my arms. 

I'm going to treat it no different than I do the Honey Badger. We'll see if it makes 2015.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

svk said:


> You can always noodle. Makes a lot of mess but better than hitting it 100 times lol



Crap I forgot about that. Would help if I actually had a working chainsaw but I'll save it until I get one. I drove by that street with all the bucked trees, still there. I'm going to go nuts on it this weekend and try to get it all. I need to make a sled with a dog harness. My dog is freaking retarded and possibly ADD. Super hyper and strong. If I could teach him to be my skidder he could get some exercise and help me at the same time.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

benp said:


> The Council Tools PR60 6lb maul is back in stock at Bailey's. I just ordered one.
> 
> I'm going to buff it like CT Yank described and attempt to put it through it's paces.
> 
> ...



Man you sound like you're really hard on handles. Are your arms abnormally long, like a gorilla's? Are you cross eyed?


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## benp (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Man you sound like you're really hard on handles. Are your arms abnormally long, like a gorilla's? Are you cross eyed?



All of the above.

Sometimes I go from near to far edges of a round to get a hint of a split. Aaaaaand sometimes I misjudge the far side. 

So I am rough on things.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

benp said:


> All of the above.
> 
> Sometimes I go from near to far edges of a round to get a hint of a split. Aaaaaand sometimes I misjudge the far side.
> 
> So I am rough on things.



lol. One of the reasons I bought the Fiskars was I heard they have a lifetime warranty. Wellll, just read the warranty info. They don't cover misuse. Woops, would have helped if I read that little blurb before I bought this pricey bit of plastic. 

I already smacked the crap out of the handle twice. Hope it can handle punishment.


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## Marshy (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> lol. One of the reasons I bought the Fiskars was I heard they have a lifetime warranty. Wellll, just read the warranty info. They don't cover misuse. Woops, would have helped if I read that little blurb before I bought this pricey bit of plastic.
> 
> I already smacked the crap out of the handle twice. Hope it can handle punishment.



I fail to see your point... If it broke swinging at or hitting a chunk of wood then how is that misuse? I think if you broke the wedge by hitting the back of it with a sledge then that would be misuse... If you were using it to drive a steel wedge then that would be misuse...


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Crap I forgot about that. Would help if I actually had a working chainsaw but I'll save it until I get one. I drove by that street with all the bucked trees, still there. I'm going to go nuts on it this weekend and try to get it all. I need to make a sled with a dog harness. My dog is freaking retarded and possibly ADD. Super hyper and strong. If I could teach him to be my skidder he could get some exercise and help me at the same time.


What kind of dog?


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

Marshy said:


> I fail to see your point... If it broke swinging at or hitting a chunk of wood then how is that misuse? I think if you broke the wedge by hitting the back of it with a sledge then that would be misuse... If you were using it to drive a steel wedge then that would be misuse...



Well I guess it's not misuse. They also don't cover accidental damage. I would say hitting the handle would be an accident since you're supposed to use the sharp part to hit the wood. Misuse could be argued because you shouldn't repeatedly be misjudging.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and my overzealous swings are covered in the warranty.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> What kind of dog?



American Staffordshire Terrier. He's a shelter rescue. Man they tricked me. Wrote online and told us how he's sooo sweet, loving, gets along with cats, etc. His energy level is insane. I used to have American Bulldogs. Big strong dogs that can stand heat, cold, pain, etc. This guy is in another league. Never, ever gets tired from physical exercise, at least from what I've seen. Take him on 6 mile runs and he'll do sprints in the yard when we're done. If I don't take him for two walks everyday he loses his mind. He'll run around the house full speed with his butt about 2 inches off the floor, just like a cartoon character. Tongue hangs out and eyes bulging. He looks very much like Ed from the Lion King.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> American Staffordshire Terrier. He's a shelter rescue. Man they tricked me. Wrote online and told us how he's sooo sweet, loving, gets along with cats, etc. His energy level is insane. I used to have American Bulldogs. Big strong dogs that can stand heat, cold, pain, etc. This guy is in another league. Never, ever gets tired from physical exercise, at least from what I've seen. Take him on 6 mile runs and he'll do sprints in the yard when we're done. If I don't take him for two walks everyday he loses his mind. He'll run around the house full speed with his butt about 2 inches off the floor, just like a cartoon character. Tongue hangs out and eyes bulging. He looks very much like Ed from the Lion King.


I love them dogs I had a great one, brindle huge head. Man talk about bite power he could hang on a rope a good while. Post a pic of the dog.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Now I get it, Am Bull Staffs and Bulldogs cool!


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> I love them dogs I had a great one, brindle huge head. Man talk about bite power he could hang on a rope a good while. Post a pic of the dog.



Yep, he has a massive head. I'm not sure if he feels pain. I made him a little toy in the yard. Tied a rope attached to a spring to a tree. Tied a burlap sack at the end of the rope so he could bite it. He'll bite it and have his feet dangling in the air. He whirls his body around with his tail wagging the whole time. I wish I easily amused like a dog. 

On another note, I noticed you're a tree ID expert. Could I send you a pic of these rubber rounds in my yard? I may exclude them from my scrounge location if they're known to always be hard to split.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Yep, he has a massive head. I'm not sure if he feels pain. I made him a little toy in the yard. Tied a rope attached to a spring to a tree. Tied a burlap sack at the end of the rope so he could bite it. He'll bite it and have his feet dangling in the air. He whirls his body around with his tail wagging the whole time. I wish I easily amused like a dog.
> 
> On another note, I noticed you're a tree ID expert. Could I send you a pic of these rubber rounds in my yard? I may exclude them from my scrounge location if they're known to always be hard to split.


Sure get some pics of the bark the end grain then some split . Maybe its Gum is it real stringy?


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Now I get it, Am Bull Staffs and Bulldogs cool!



Yep lol. I bought my ABs from Alan Scott, known as one of the fathers of the breed. Love those dogs. Really goofy and great with kids. They are able to switch on and off as the situation dictates. They do have an issue with flatulence though.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Yep lol. I bought my ABs from Alan Scott, known as one of the fathers of the breed. Love those dogs. Really goofy and great with kids. They are able to switch on and off as the situation dictates. They do have an issue with flatulence though.


Scott line eh. Sounds like a cool Staff though I like him.


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## zogger (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> lol. One of the reasons I bought the Fiskars was I heard they have a lifetime warranty. Wellll, just read the warranty info. They don't cover misuse. Woops, would have helped if I read that little blurb before I bought this pricey bit of plastic.
> 
> I already smacked the crap out of the handle twice. Hope it can handle punishment.




aim small...hit small


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Sure get some pics of the bark the end grain then some split . Maybe its Gum is it real stringy?



Okay I'll send tomorrow. Yeah it is. I sunk the Fiskars head into the side and thought I had it. Had to pull it out and couldn't get it to split anymore then that. Seems stringy but really light like poplar.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> Scott line eh. Sounds like a cool Staff though I like him.



Nice! You know about the bulldog lineage. Yeah, he drives me crazy but he's a good dog. He's under 2 years so I hope he freaking calms down soon. 



zogger said:


> aim small...hit small



Hmm, I like that mantra. I'll see if it helps. I was surprised I still have my aim. Was able to hit the same spot frequently.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Nice! You know about the bulldog lineage. Yeah, he drives me crazy but he's a good dog. He's under 2 years so I hope he freaking calms down soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I like that mantra. I'll see if it helps. I was surprised I still have my aim. Was able to hit the same spot frequently.


He ain't gonna calm down for a long time! I have a Corso that acts like that he opens doors and ruins anything he can !


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> He ain't gonna calm down for a long time! I have a Corso that acts like that he opens doors and ruins anything he can !



Crap. My ABs calmed down around 3 or 4. He's chewed up so many of my stuff I've had to dog proof my whole house. You ever hear of a Kong toy? Supposed to be indestructible. He chewed it into pieces in about 15 minutes. It cost me $20 freaking dollars. 

I like Corsos too. Always wanted a Dogo, maybe a presa too.


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## lone wolf (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Crap. My ABs calmed down around 3 or 4. He's chewed up so many of my stuff I've had to dog proof my whole house. You ever hear of a Kong toy? Supposed to be indestructible. He chewed it into pieces in about 15 minutes. It cost me $20 freaking dollars.
> 
> I like Corsos too. Always wanted a Dogo, maybe a presa too.


I have a Presa also. Corsos and Staff's or Pits are my favorite they all bite hard and will work.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> I have a Presa also. Corsos and Staff's or Pits are my favorite they all bite hard and will work.



Nice. Brindle? This is my first pit/staff. I knew they were a little more hyper than an AB but jeez, wasn't expecting this guy. Too bad they have such bad public image. They are great dogs if raised properly. My dog is spooning my wife right now.


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## Philbert (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Well I guess it's not misuse. They also don't cover accidental damage.



The Fiskars broken by AS members have been replaced. 

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

Philbert said:


> The Fiskars broken by AS members have been replaced.
> 
> Philbert



Cool, thanks. I can go at it with reckless abandon now.


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## Philbert (Nov 20, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Cool, thanks. I can go at it with reckless abandon now.


They won't help you if you hurt yourself. 

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 20, 2014)

Philbert said:


> They won't help you if you hurt yourself.
> 
> Philbert



lol. I'm a pretty careful guy. Never had a major injury. 

BTW, been wondering what kind of saw(s) you run?


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*Wellll, Fiskars just arrived today. I tried it out on some pine. Split through it easily. I tried it on some other rounds and wasn't too impressed.
> That's the problem with such high expectations, reality sets in.*_


I've found the Fiskars won't split (with one whack) most of what I cut. Seriously, it won't split anything a single bit ax won't, although it does it with a bit more authority. I had high expectations also; reading what the "fans" post you get the idea it the next best thing to a Star Wars Light Saber. But the "reality" is, like any other tool, it has its purpose and use... no more than that. I actually believe it would be a better tool with a good hickory handle on it; but then they couldn't use the "lifetime" sales gimmick... and, of course, the head would need redesign. The cost of the thing (not that it's _that_ much) must be mostly the handle anyway, 'cause the steel ain't all that great... too hard/brittle for a striking/cutting tool.

I use the "one-whack" theory when splittin' wood with ax or maul... if one won't do the job, I'm using the wrong tool (an occasional two whacks if the second is just to break the last few fibers or strings). The Fiskars is not effective on Burr Oak, Ash, Black Cheery, Hackberry, Hard Maple, and (straight) Red Elm... but the maul is. The Fiskars is effective on Silver Maple, White Cedar, Black Walnut (most of it), and standing-dead Pine... it does OK on a few of the others I mentioned _after_ they've been halved or quartered by the maul.

Nothing but hydraulics is effective on American Elm... or, at least, I ain't found anything else. Heck, wedge 'n' sledge ain't even effective.
Some stuff just ain't worth tryin' to split with shoulder power.
*


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> I've found the Fiskars won't split (with one whack) most of what I cut. Seriously, it won't split anything a single bit ax won't, although it does it with a bit more authority. I had high expectations also; reading what the "fans" post you get the idea it the next best thing to a Star Wars Light Saber. But the "reality" is, like any other tool, it has its purpose and use... no more than that. I actually believe it would be a better tool with a good hickory handle on it; but then they couldn't use the "lifetime" sales gimmick... and, of course, the head would need redesign. The cost of the thing (not that it's _that_ much) must be mostly the handle anyway, 'cause the steel ain't all that great... too hard/brittle for a striking/cutting tool.
> 
> I use the "one-whack" theory when splittin' wood with ax or maul... if one won't do the job, I'm using the wrong tool (an occasional two whacks if the second is just to break the last few fibers or strings). The Fiskars is not effective on Burr Oak, Ash, Black Cheery, Hackberry, Hard Maple, and (straight) Red Elm... but the maul is. The Fiskars is effective on Silver Maple, White Cedar, Black Walnut (most of it), and standing-dead Pine... it does OK on a few of the others I mentioned _after_ they've been halved or quartered by the maul.
> 
> ...


I have found that I can split American Elm once the temp gets well below zero with my maul.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> _*I have found that I can split American Elm once the temp gets well below zero with my maul.*_


Yeah, some of it... some of it, not so much.
*


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## GrassGuerilla (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I have found that I can split American Elm once the temp gets well below zero with my maul.



Green and very frozen, or with hydraulics. Otherwise an exercise in frustration.


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## Philbert (Nov 21, 2014)

The Fiskars with a wooden handle wouldn't be a Fiskars. 

The whole point of that tool is that they focused the weight at the 'point of operation', where it does the work, and took it out of the handle, where it does not help. 

I'm not going to start one of those physics arguments with the billiards ball experts on this thread, but the extra weight of a wooden handle would not help the splitting process, however, it would be more tiring for the user to repetitively lift. 

There are some differences between head shapes. But if a Fiskars only splits as well as a conventional axe that weighs 2 pounds more, it is still offering an advantage. It is not magic. 

Philbert


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

Philbert said:


> the extra weight of a wooden handle would not help the splitting process


No, the weight of the handle doesn't contribute much to the splitting process, but it also doesn't take much energy to accelerate it. I think the main reason for the handle is that they didn't have to incorporate a conventional eye into the head. Plus it utterly changes the manufacturing process by eliminating a material with a lot of variables and requiring more hand labor.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 21, 2014)

GrassGuerilla said:


> Green and very frozen, or with hydraulics. Otherwise an exercise in frustration.


I have never cut a green elm. Every Elm I cut is dead standing. It actually splits well by hand in the sub zero temps with my big 13 lb maul.


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## lindnova (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I have never cut a green elm. Every Elm I cut is dead standing. It actually splits well by hand in the sub zero temps with my big 13 lb maul.


I almost always cut dead elm and it is moderate to hard to split. The older the better, but before it gets punky.

I cut a live 16" American elm a few years ago and couldn't even get it to split with hydraulics (cut in June). Not for lack of power; the wedge went all in it nearly killing the motor, but no split. It was like trying to split a piece of rubber. After it dried a year it kind of split, but was real messy.

Last winter I cut down a live American elm on a field edge and it split very stringy, but got it done ok. That wood will be nice starting wood next winter. It is still over 20% now after 9 months of split and stack.

I did get a fiskar x27. I agree with those that say it is only good for easy wood. No bur oak or elm. I have split some cherry this fall with it. I mainly use it to resplit pieces for the stove. I have been splitting very large for the outdoor furnace, and resplit as needed for stove or campfire wood. I must have got lucky with a good batch of steel as the edge is holding up ok for me. 

I have a few splitting tools to choose from and the 8 lb maul is the most used for me. X27 2nd, 6 lb maul 3rd. Of course I use the hydraulic for most of the wood. Hand splitting is mostly for exercise a little here and there in the evenings.


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> ...
> 
> I use the "one-whack" theory when splittin' wood with ax or maul... if one won't do the job, I'm using the wrong tool (an occasional two whacks if the second is just to break the last few fibers or strings).* The Fiskars is not effective on Burr Oak, Ash, Black Cheery, Hackberry, Hard Maple, and (straight) Red Elm... but the maul is.* The Fiskars is effective on Silver Maple, White Cedar, Black Walnut (most of it), and standing-dead Pine... it does OK on a few of the others I mentioned _after_ they've been halved or quartered by the maul.
> 
> ...


 
I try to stay way from making statements like yours in bold. The reason is because I have no problems splitting black cherry, red oak, ash and hard maple with my Fiskar. YMMV

Elm is a mixed bag. Ive had some that fly apart and some that laugh at you.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*I try to stay way from making statements like yours in bold. The reason is because I have no problems splitting black cherry, red oak, ash and hard maple with my Fiskar. YMMV*_


*LOL ‼*
I had to look up what YMMV stands for ‼
Just stating my personal observations, based on my personal view of effectiveness... I can't think of a reason for shying away from making such a statement.
Although... I gotta' hand it to ya'... YMMV pretty much says it all.
*


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

The white ash I get is easy splitting wood - one of the things I can often use the 3-1/2lb axes for.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

The ash I get is darn near as stringy as the elm, but a bit easier to bust... gotta' be due to local conditions I figure.
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> I've found the Fiskars won't split (with one whack) most of what I cut. Seriously, it won't split anything a single bit ax won't, although it does it with a bit more authority. I had high expectations also; reading what the "fans" post you get the idea it the next best thing to a Star Wars Light Saber. But the "reality" is, like any other tool, it has its purpose and use... no more than that. I actually believe it would be a better tool with a good hickory handle on it; but then they couldn't use the "lifetime" sales gimmick... and, of course, the head would need redesign. The cost of the thing (not that it's _that_ much) must be mostly the handle anyway, 'cause the steel ain't all that great... too hard/brittle for a striking/cutting tool.
> 
> I use the "one-whack" theory when splittin' wood with ax or maul... if one won't do the job, I'm using the wrong tool (an occasional two whacks if the second is just to break the last few fibers or strings). The Fiskars is not effective on Burr Oak, Ash, Black Cheery, Hackberry, Hard Maple, and (straight) Red Elm... but the maul is. The Fiskars is effective on Silver Maple, White Cedar, Black Walnut (most of it), and standing-dead Pine... it does OK on a few of the others I mentioned _after_ they've been halved or quartered by the maul.
> 
> ...


Kind of interesting how a maul that weighs 2 more pounds or so could be much more effective vs the Fiskars. I would think you could make that difference up with strike speed. Perhaps I should have paid attention to your physics argument


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Kind of interesting how a maul that weighs 2 more pounds or so could be much more effective vs the Fiskars. I would think you could make that difference up with strike speed. Perhaps I should have paid attention to your physics argument


 
Yes it can be made up with more speed.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Yes it can be made up with more speed.


Maybe my problem is I can't make up the difference in speed with the fiskars to make it more effective?


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*Kind of interesting how a maul that weighs 2 more pounds or so could be much more effective vs the Fiskars. I would think you could make that difference up with strike speed.*_





Marshy said:


> _*Yes it can be made up with more speed.*_


But... you guys are assuming the lighter ax is being swung faster (or striking at a faster speed), which may, or may not, be true depending on the user.
There's a speed limit for the human entity... some guys may be faster than others, but it ain't infinite for anyone.
Of course I've never measured it... but, going on feel, I'm seriously doubting there's any difference in striking speed when I swing a 4# ax or 6# maul... and maybe a miniscule difference with an 8# maul. It may be further into the swing (longer time) before I reach maximum speed, but that doesn't change the striking speed.



mn woodcutter said:


> _*Maybe my problem is I can't make up the difference in speed with the fiskars to make it more effective?*_


Maybe the heavier tool doesn't slow your swing (or striking speed)... which would nullify any "speed" advantage the lighter tool might gain.
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> But... you guys are assuming the lighter ax is being swung faster (or striking at a faster speed), which may, or may not, be true depending on the user.
> There's a speed limit for the human entity... some guys may be faster than others, but it ain't infinite for anyone.
> Of course I've never measured it... but, going on feel, I'm seriously doubting there's any difference in striking speed when I swing a 4# ax or 6# maul... and maybe a miniscule difference with an 8# maul. It may be further into the swing (longer time) before I reach maximum speed, but that doesn't change the striking speed.
> 
> ...


We need Myth Busters to settle this. It's opposite for me. I feel like I can swing that Fiskars faster than a wood handled maul. I also swing the maul a bit different. I think I keep the Fiskars more vertical


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> Maybe my problem is I can't make up the difference in speed with the fiskars to make it more effective?





Whitespider said:


> There's a speed limit for the human entity.



Yes, there is a limit to how fast you can swing even with no weight. That is the reason for my advice to swing the heaviest tool you can swing fast, which will vary for everyone. I'd actually modify that based on how long you will be at it - I can swing an 8lb maul fast, but I can't do it for very long. 

Of course, once the tool gets to the wood you still have the whole other half of the problem, which is translating the energy that got there into effective forces for breaking the wood fibers apart. What is required will vary with wood type, and different tool head profiles will work differently. This is really where all the complexity is, and all the experience comes in. The first part of swing velocity only determines how much energy you have to work with.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*We need Myth Busters to settle this.*_


I think not... it's already been settled several times.
Google the speed of a baseball bat, golf club, or whatever... there's a point where decreasing weight of the object being swung, or building more muscle on the person doing the swinging, no longer increases the speed of the swing (it can even slow it some).
*


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> _*Yes, there is a limit to how fast you can swing even with no weight.*_


You mean... we agree??
Mark it down boys... mark it down 
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> I think not... it's already been settled several times.
> Google the speed of a baseball bat, golf club, or whatever... there's a point where decreasing weight of the object being swung, or building more muscle on the person doing the swinging, no longer increases the speed of the swing (it can even slow it some).
> *


I was just thinking there's so many variables involved. Weight of the blade, weight of handle, balance, profile of head, swing characteristics, speed, etc. It would be interesting to see a scientific experiment to test the variables. Hope that makes sense, finance major here


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## zogger (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Kind of interesting how a maul that weighs 2 more pounds or so could be much more effective vs the Fiskars. I would think you could make that difference up with strike speed. Perhaps I should have paid attention to your physics argument



That's how it works for me, I am much more able to increase my swing speed over whacking around with the anvil on a stick. I don't even bust 120 lbs, I have to rely on speed and technique and tool. And plus, the original supersplitter came stock about as sharp as sharp gets, teflon slick coating to reduce friction in the wood, plus a very good well thought out wedge head shape. La Bomba! The teflon is long wore off, I use a spray can of teflon spray on it now when I go for a splitting session. Heck, I use it on all the axes, helps bunches and is cheap, few bucks a can.

If I was a foot taller and 100 lbs more, most likely could swing the 8lb anvil on a stick just as fast. Boom! But I ain't, so I don't....


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## zogger (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> I was just thinking there's so many variables involved. Weight of the blade, weight of handle, balance, profile of head, swing characteristics, speed, etc. It would be interesting to see a scientific experiment to test the variables. Hope that makes sense, finance major here



Axe comparison plus good way to use the fiskars


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## benp (Nov 21, 2014)

zogger said:


> Axe comparison plus good way to use the fiskars




Good video Zog!!!! Thanks.

I have never seen that before.


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## Philbert (Nov 21, 2014)

zogger said:


> Axe comparison plus good way to use the fiskars



Nice video Zog.

Philbert


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 21, 2014)

zogger said:


> Axe comparison plus good way to use the fiskars



Is it just me or do they use more boards stacked up with the competition's models vs the fiskars? Wouldn't using less boards give the axe more time to speed up?


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## Philbert (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> Is it just me or do they use more boards stacked up with the competition's models vs the fiskars? Wouldn't using less boards give the axe more time to speed up?


The Fiskars people made the video - they are going to show their product in the best light. You could argue about a few things in it..

- The wood block slides down the Fiskars blade because it is steeper too? Is this related to splitting?
- Cutting paper is not the same as splitting wood - the same angle might not apply.
- Splitting pine (?) boards from the side is not the same as splitting oak rounds from the end.
- Etc.

But overall, it is pretty impressive and well produced. Especially the wood splitting fixutre, and handle durability parts of the video.

I like my Fiskars' splitting mauls based on trying them and using them. Lighter to carry, handle, and hold than other mauls or axes I have tried. They have held up and they split stuff pretty well. I am not offended if someone likes something else more.

Philbert


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> _*Is it just me or do they use more boards stacked up with the competition's models vs the fiskars? Wouldn't using less boards give the axe more time to speed up?*_


Yeah... I noticed that also.
Ten blocks for competitors #1 and #2, what appears to be eight for #3, and seven for the Fiskars. More stacked blocks also makes for more "give", or absorption of the blow. But it's a sales video (shrug)... it-is-what-it-is. If it didn't show the product it's advertizing as a better mouse trap... it would be a lousy sales video. I believe they call it marketing. Ya' know?? Selling the magic.
I always laughed at the one where the Chevy and Ford were hooked together in a tug-o-war (don't remember now who's advertizement that was).
*


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## svk (Nov 21, 2014)

I would like to see proof that the same person can swing an 8# maul as fast as a 4 1/2 lb axe. I don't buy that.


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Yeah... I noticed that also.
> *Ten blocks for competitors #1 and #2, what appears to be eight for #3, and seven for the Fiskars. More stacked blocks also makes for more "give", or absorption of the blow. But it's a sales video (shrug)... it-is-what-it-is.* If it didn't show the product it's advertizing as a better mouse trap... it would be a lousy sales video. I believe they call it marketing. Ya' know?? Selling the magic.
> I always laughed at the one where the Chevy and Ford were hooked together in a tug-o-war (don't remember now who's advertizement that was).
> *


 
Bull chit! 3 more blocks for the heavier maul means it might of traveled 3" less than the Fiskar and yet it didnt manage to split 1 friggin' block. Despite that loss of travel, how come the extra momentum didnt help split anything? From a work standpoint, the Fiskar just kicked all their @sses.


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## lindnova (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> The ash I get is darn near as stringy as the elm, but a bit easier to bust... gotta' be due to local conditions I figure.
> *


I notice that too. The green ash around me (just north of you) is nearly as bad as elm when green.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

zogger said:


> That's how it works for me, I am much more able to increase my swing speed over whacking around with the anvil on a stick. I don't even bust 120 lbs, I have to rely on speed and technique and tool. And plus, the original supersplitter came stock about as sharp as sharp gets, teflon slick coating to reduce friction in the wood, plus a very good well thought out wedge head shape. La Bomba! The teflon is long wore off, I use a spray can of teflon spray on it now when I go for a splitting session. Heck, I use it on all the axes, helps bunches and is cheap, few bucks a can.
> 
> If I was a foot taller and 100 lbs more, most likely could swing the 8lb anvil on a stick just as fast. Boom! But I ain't, so I don't....



Yeah, I feel like I could swing the Fiskars all day long. Very light. Handle has almost no weight, at least it feel that way. 

The original is the all black handle? Man I should have bought that instead. The teflon won't last on my X27, it keeps going straight through rounds and into the freaking dirt. I seriously need a cookie round to split on. Another think I need to buy, teflon spray.


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

The originals have the orange on the handle. Keep it out of the dirt because the steel is brittle and chips easy. Keep the edge tuned up with a flat file.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> The originals have the orange on the handle. Keep it out of the dirt because the steel is brittle and chips easy. Keep the edge tuned up with a flat file.



Nice, I have the original. I like the orange too. Makes it a little harder to lose it in the woods.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

svk said:


> _*I would like to see proof that the same person can swing an 8# maul as fast as a 4 1/2 lb axe. I don't buy that.*_


OK... but does he have too??
Let's say he can swing the 4½ pound ax at a striking speed of 70 MPH... which works out to 737.12 foot-pounds of kinetic energy and 140.8 pounds-force momentum.
Now, to equal the same kinetic energy with the 8 pound maul he only needs to swing the thing 52½ MPH, and momentum increases to 187.77 pounds-force.
So... he can give up 25% of the speed, retain the same KE, and gain 25% more momentum.
Hmmmmmm..... maybe it ain't so simple as speed and weight, huh??

C'mon Marshy... it's a sales video... don't make more of it than what it is.
*


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

I watched the video. They made 4 main points:

*Handle Strength *- Their handle may be stronger, but it better be because it cannot be replaced. With proper use you should not be overstriking much.

*Balance* - They compared their axe to several others with considerably longer handles, which of course made theirs look like the balance point was closer to the head. Rigged.

*Sharpness* - They only showed that theirs is sharp out of the box, but so what? It won't stay that way. There is no reason you cannot sharpen any decent axe to a razor edge, and you should.

*Teflon Coating* - Nice for as long as it lasts, which will not be forever. 

So overall the main deal here is a coating that is temporary, the rest is BS.


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> I watched the video. They made 4 main points:
> 
> *Handle Strength *- Their handle may be stronger, but it better be because it cannot be replaced. With proper use you should not be overstriking much.
> 
> ...


 
I dont agree with you. The handle strength is superior to all others. Handles can break for other reasons than over strike. Ive broken them from just plain beating the wood or steel wedge too hard. Had one split the whole length of the handle right down the center and had another one break the fibers about 10" from the sledge head, both were nearly new with no over strikes.

Balanace was not rigged IMO. Look at the left side of the balance point. The Fiskars edge is within an inch or so of the balance point where all ther others are 2 or several inches away. It just meand the center of gravity for the Fiskars is in the head where it ought to be.

Sharpness might not mean much to you out of the box but for the average consumer of user on AS I dont think they will take the time to sharpen their maul that sharp. Yes it can be sharpened but I bet if you did a poll on here and asked how many people that use a 6.5lb maul if they keep it sharp enough to cut paper it might be <25%... that might even apply to the folks with Fiskars too... I keep mine as sharp as a pocket knife but I sharpen my maul the german method like my lawn mower blades, goot'en-uf.

Teflon coating, meh.. it wears off I guess. Not a lot to say there other than the finish under it is still quite smooth vs my other maul and axe...

Hey, its friday, time for


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## svk (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> OK... but does he have too??
> Let's say he can swing the 4½ pound ax at a striking speed of 70 MPH... which works out to 737.12 foot-pounds of kinetic energy and 140.8 pounds-force momentum.
> Now, to equal the same kinetic energy with the 8 pound maul he only needs to swing the thing 52½ MPH, and momentum increases to 187.77 pounds-force.
> So... he can give up 25% of the speed, retain the same KE, and gain 25% more momentum.
> ...


Agree completely with your math. 

Don't agree with the statement that both can achieve the same top speed with the same user.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> _*I watched the video. They made 4 main points:*_
> _*So overall the main deal here is a coating that is temporary, the rest is BS.*_


Holy crap‼ Twice in one day‼
Mark it down boys... mark it down 
*


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

svk said:


> _*Agree completely with your math.
> Don't agree with the statement that both can achieve the same top speed with the same user.*_


Yeah... I know... just responding.
I'm not even sure how we could prove it either way... at least not definitively.
Just because Superman can, don't mean the Incredible Hulk can.
Heck, I know guys that would have trouble lifting a 4½ pound ax over their head 10 times.
*


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## svk (Nov 21, 2014)

I'd be curious at what weight of tool the *average* person could generate the most energy from a strike when you take in speed and weight. 

I'd guess somewhere between 6-8...


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

Since this is about axes and I let the X27 dig into the dirt, is the general consensus a flat file to sharpen it? Did a search and that's what most people seem to use. That and/or a whetstone.


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## svk (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Since this is about axes and I let the X27 dig into the dirt, is the general consensus a flat file to sharpen it? Did a search and that's what most people seem to use. That and/or a whetstone.


Yes that's what I use. I don't worry about hitting the dirt now and then because at 45 bucks I don't expect it to last forever.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> I dont agree with you. The handle strength is superior to all others. Handles can break for other reasons than over strike. Ive broken them from just plain beating the wood or steel wedge too hard. Had one split the whole length of the handle right down the center and had another one break the fibers about 10" from the sledge head, both were nearly new with no over strikes.
> 
> Balanace was not rigged IMO. Look at the left side of the balance point. The Fiskars edge is within an inch or so of the balance point where all ther others are 2 or several inches away. It just meand the center of gravity for the Fiskars is in the head where it ought to be.
> 
> ...


I think sharpness is a big factor. Both of my 8 and 13 lb maul are as sharp as my fiskars and hold an edge better.


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## zogger (Nov 21, 2014)

Hey guys...that's the only video I know of that even remotely starts to approach a real test of axes. Everything else I have seen is just opinion/reviews/different guys swinging differently in different wood. I know it isn't perfect, but..open to any other true scientific tests. 

The best I have is my hands and back my wood with me swinging. Can't brag on my over all grunt, but my aim ain't too shabby....fiskars is far and away the most "accurate" axe I ever hefted. I imagine there are competition axes much better, but never even seen one, let alone use one. I can split more wood and easier with the fiskars over the other tools, in most, but not all, of my wood I cut here. The wood handle maul is what hurt my elbow bad this summer, not the plastic handled fiskars. Couldn't split much of anything for freaking months, really annoying! I love splitting! I just don't get bad shock from the fiskars like I do with the others. I have no explanation for that, other than nostalgia isn't quantifiable, and there are differences in synthetic handles. . Fiskars handles work, you can swing hard and not much shock. 

No idea on their metallurgy, why they make that type of steel. They are quite an old company and are familiar with steels. 

I personally don't care one way or the other, if you can replace a handle or not, I *don't* want to have to replace it in the first place. If I bust it, lifetime warranty, I'll replace the handle that way. Anyone wants nostalgia, go for it, there's some chert or flint over there, flake out an axe head sharp, go kill some animal to get some sinews, attach to nostalgic piece of wood of choice, and have at it! No fancy schmancy modern alloy steel made in robotic factories, gots to be old timey, REAL old timey "natural" and "nostalgia"! HAHAHAHAHA

Anyway, we go through this every winter, swing what ya want...don't make me post that pic of the two match halves again.....


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Yeah... I know... just responding.
> *I'm not even sure how we could prove it either way... at least not definitively.*
> Just because Superman can, don't mean the Incredible Hulk can.
> Heck, I know guys that would have trouble lifting a 4½ pound ax over their head 10 times.
> *


 
Im not sure there is any value in that. In real life you only use as much force thats requried to do the intended action. Yes there will be left over energy at times but only because it usually better to have too much then not enough when splitting wood.

Thats why I like the approach they took in the movie, i.e. let the axe/maul swing a natural arc (90*) and determine how effective each one is.

Whats that mean in the end? The "person" that swung the maul had to put in more energy from their body to pick up the heavier mass and then swing it throught the air where as the lighter fiskar tool less energy to pick up and swing but was more effective...

Just wait, with more beer this will only get better.


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## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> _*Balanace was not rigged IMO. Look at the left side of the balance point. The Fiskars edge is within an inch or so of the balance point where all ther others are 2 or several inches away. It just meand the center of gravity for the Fiskars is in the head where it ought to be.*_


The balance point of my 8# maul, using the edge of my hand, is with the head butted right up against my hand... it's all in choosing the handle and hanging the head on it properly. If I do happen to break a hickory handle, I can be using the tool again in a couple hours (or less, depending). I don't care how strong it is, the Fiskars handle ain't "unbreakable", and it ain't "user" replaceable... so in my personal opinion, the handle is a disadvantage, not an advantage (and it feels funky, to me anyway). As far as sharpness; I didn't think my Fiskars was all that sharp out'a the box... I put a file and stone to it before I even used it, no different than I do with any edged tool. (shrug)

But don't get me wrong... I ain't sayin' it's a bad tool... just sayin' it ain't magic.



Marshy said:


> _*Just wait, with more beer this will only get better.*_


Do I need to catch up?? LOL ‼
*


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## Marshy (Nov 21, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I think sharpness is a big factor. Both of my 8 and 13 lb maul are as sharp as my fiskars and hold an edge better.


 
I dont disagree with you. My point was how many people keep their maul as sharp or close to as sharp as the Fiskar comes out of the box? I certainly keep my Fiskar sharp, but not my maul...


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## zogger (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> I dont disagree with you. My point was how many people keep their maul as sharp or close to as sharp as the Fiskar comes out of the box? I certainly keep my Fiskar sharp, but not my maul...



One observation..with their new designs, I don't think the fiskars ship as sharp now as the original one I got. I have checked out several at the stores, sharp but not WATCHOUT sharp.


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## svk (Nov 21, 2014)

zogger said:


> One observation..with their new designs, I don't think the fiskars ship as sharp now as the original one I got. I have checked out several at the stores, sharp but not WATCHOUT sharp.


I'm sure some numbskull cut themselves and sued. "I didn't know an axe would be sharp!"


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> OK... but does he have too??
> Let's say he can swing the 4½ pound ax at a striking speed of 70 MPH... which works out to 737.12 foot-pounds of kinetic energy and 140.8 pounds-force momentum.
> Now, to equal the same kinetic energy with the 8 pound maul he only needs to swing the thing 52½ MPH, and momentum increases to 187.77 pounds-force.
> So... he can give up 25% of the speed, retain the same KE, and gain 25% more momentum.
> ...


Your calculation of the relationship of the velocity needed for equivalent energy is correct, however foot-pounds is not a unit of energy, rather it is a measure of torque. But you don't need to calculate the KE to find V2

V2 = SQRT(m1/m2) x V1

But then you go calculating momentum, which is nice but momentum is not what breaks the wood - force is the quantity you need. Force = mass x acceleration, or Work / time. Work here is KE, so you can also use Force = KE / time.

Either way you need more information to calculate force, and since force is a vector quantity you really need to know the direction to know how effective it is. Still, looking at just the magnitude in this case if you use F = ma (acceleration here is deceleration), it's reasonable to assume the higher velocity tool will decelerate faster but of course it also depends on the distance in which it stops.

If you use F = KE/t, then you'd need to know the time the tool head took to stop. Both of these could tell you the peak force. If you have a narrow taper tool that takes a long time to stop, or moves a long distance into the wood, then the peak force will be low, the fibers won't break and your axe will end up stuck in the wood!

Note that the equations concerning how the energy is transferred into force when the round is hit are first order, unlike the velocity squared term in the KE equation, and this is why it is important to focus on velocity. Whenever there is a variable raised to a power, that is the one you need to pay attention to.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 21, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Balanace was not rigged IMO. Look at the left side of the balance point. The Fiskars edge is within an inch or so of the balance point where all ther others are 2 or several inches away. It just meand the center of gravity for the Fiskars is in the head where it ought to be.


Ahh, but the absolute distance from head to balance point will be longer if the handle sicks out on the other side further. Note that they used an X25 rather than an X27 in that segment, and they don't actually even say theirs is better, they just say the balance point should be as close to the head as possible.

Also, the equation for rotational KE is actually KE = mass x r^2 x w^2 (w is angular velocity), so with the r squared term the mass close to the center is really irrelevant.


----------



## Whitespider (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh no you don't Chris-PA , you ain't suckin' me back into that ‼
But yes, I know foot-pounds ain't the universally correct way to express energy... I just converted the joule into foot-pound (force) 'cause most can relate.
And also yes... I know we need to know the acceleration (or deceleration) rate, in time or displacement, and the cosine of angle relative to the incline plane and direction of displacement (the wedge shape of the tool head).
But, like I said, you ain't suckin' me back into that ‼
Besides... I'm 8 beverages in.
*


----------



## stihly dan (Nov 21, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Oh no you don't Chris-PA , you ain't suckin' me back into that ‼
> But yes, I know foot-pounds ain't the universally correct way to express energy... I just converted the joule into foot-pound (force) 'cause most can relate.
> And also yes... I know we need to know the acceleration (or deceleration) rate, in time or displacement, and the cosine of angle relative to the incline plane and direction of displacement (the wedge shape of the tool head).
> But, like I said, you ain't suckin' me back into that ‼
> ...



Slow night, huh.


----------



## benp (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Since this is about axes and I let the X27 dig into the dirt, is the general consensus a flat file to sharpen it? Did a search and that's what most people seem to use. That and/or a whetstone.



Ambull, 

I just use a raker file. Works very well. 

Don't feel bad about hitting dirt. My first swing with the Fiskars = a blow through and hitting concrete. The upper edge looks like a gopher has been after it. 



zogger said:


> Hey guys...that's the only video I know of that even remotely starts to approach a real test of axes. Everything else I have seen is just opinion/reviews/different guys swinging differently in different wood. I know it isn't perfect, but..open to any other true scientific tests.
> 
> The best I have is my hands and back my wood with me swinging. Can't brag on my over all grunt, but my aim ain't too shabby....fiskars is far and away the most "accurate" axe I ever hefted. I imagine there are competition axes much better, but never even seen one, let alone use one. I can split more wood and easier with the fiskars over the other tools, in most, but not all, of my wood I cut here. The wood handle maul is what hurt my elbow bad this summer, not the plastic handled fiskars. Couldn't split much of anything for freaking months, really annoying! I love splitting!* I just don't get bad shock from the fiskars like I do with the others. I have no explanation for that, other than nostalgia isn't quantifiable, and there are differences in synthetic handles. . Fiskars handles work, you can swing hard and not much shock. *
> 
> ...



What I have been saying all along Zog. 

The shock transmission to you is minimal with the Fiskars compared to other tools I have used. 

I am curious to how the Council Tools 6lb maul I have coming compares in this category.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 21, 2014)

benp said:


> Ambull,
> I just use a raker file. Works very well.
> Don't feel bad about hitting dirt. My first swing with the Fiskars = a blow through and hitting concrete. The upper edge looks like a gopher has been after it.
> What I have been saying all along Zog.
> ...



Crap, another thing I need. A raker file. Totally forgot about that. I hope the time comes soon when I don't have to keep buying crap just to cut and split wood. 

Yeah, I just went through two pieces of pine and hit some gravel. I think I'll use the sweet gum rounds I picked up as a splitting platform. Fiskars will not go through that stuff. 

Can't wait to hear about your Council Tool. Sounds like we have the same aim so if it holds up for you it should be okay for my use too.


----------



## benp (Nov 21, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Crap, another thing I need. A raker file. Totally forgot about that. I hope the time comes soon when I don't have to keep buying crap just to cut and split wood.
> 
> Yeah, I just went through two pieces of pine and hit some gravel. I think I'll use the sweet gum rounds I picked up as a splitting platform. Fiskars will not go through that stuff.
> 
> Can't wait to hear about your Council Tool. Sounds like we have the same aim* so if it holds up for you it should be okay for my use too*.



LMAO!!!

I just spit my snuff out. 

Yep, if it holds up to the abuse that I put the Fiskars through ( over strikes and pry bar usage on splits) then you should be good. The only reason why I bought this (CT's Maul) is because of CT Yanks thread and a little curiosity. I hope it is a positive experience.

I use Save Edge raker files and always pick up one or two when I order new chain files. 

They are hungry little buggers


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## woodchuck357 (Nov 22, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Since this is about axes and I let the X27 dig into the dirt, is the general consensus a flat file to sharpen it? Did a search and that's what most people seem to use. That and/or a whetstone.


Stack a couple of tires, put wood to be split into the tires, no more hitting the dirt, chasing splits or standing them back up.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 22, 2014)

woodchuck357 said:


> Stack a couple of tires, put wood to be split into the tires, no more hitting the dirt, chasing splits or standing them back up.


You know, I heard about using tires to hold splits but never thought of using more than one. Freaking great idea. I'll get some used ones in the morning and try it out. Thanks


----------



## woodchuck357 (Nov 22, 2014)

search "tire aplitting ring"
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/tire-splitting-ring.249059/#post-4620154


----------



## square1 (Nov 22, 2014)

Does anyone really swing an ax like the the guy in the video?


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## dancan (Nov 22, 2014)

Pffft , no magic , next thing someone's gonna say no Santa ........Pfffft


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## blacklocst (Nov 22, 2014)

*Ergonomics is one other thing Fiskars has an advantage or other similarly priced mauls. It feels like an extension of your arm, other tools feel clumsy just picking it up let alone swinging it.*


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## Whitespider (Nov 22, 2014)

blacklocst said:


> _*Ergonomics...*_


That's a perception thing... the Fiskars feels funky, or clumsy to me.
I also find it difficult to control when I really "lean" into it... I actually have to take a little off the swing or it gets a mind of its own. Especially if it rebounds (bounces) off a tough round... LOOK OUT, no tellin' where it's goin. But rebound is more a function of (or amplification by) handle material than anything else.
*


----------



## blacklocst (Nov 22, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Especially if it rebounds (bounces) off a tough round... LOOK OUT, no tellin' where it's goin.
> *


Yeah, I've had it rebound and come within inches of my skull. I think lack of control comes from your focus being shifted from picking a spot on the round to muscling the maul.


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## Whitespider (Nov 22, 2014)

blacklocst said:


> _*I think lack of control comes from your focus being shifted from picking a spot on the round to muscling the maul.*_


Hmmmm.... Maybe, but I don't have any problem "muscling" my 8# maul, or any of the hickory handled strikin' tools. I have a fiberglass handled nail hammer that does the same thing... I miss the nail as much as I hit it. I believe it's more a technique thing; with a hickory handle you actually release, or relax, your grip just as the tool strikes... if you do that with a synthetic handle it'll rattle your spectacles off your face. I believe I have problems making the transition in technique (shrug)
Kind'a like teaching an old dog new tricks LOL ‼
*


----------



## lone wolf (Nov 22, 2014)

I never have any of these problems at all but my lower back sure is a problem.


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## zogger (Nov 22, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Hmmmm.... Maybe, but I don't have any problem "muscling" my 8# maul, or any of the hickory handled strikin' tools. I have a fiberglass handled nail hammer that does the same thing... I miss the nail as much as I hit it. I believe it's more a technique thing; with a hickory handle you actually release, or relax, your grip just as the tool strikes... if you do that with a synthetic handle it'll rattle your spectacles off your face. I believe I have problems making the transition in technique (shrug)
> Kind'a like teaching an old dog new tricks LOL ‼
> *



Been saying that over and over again now for years. It just is not, ain't an 8lb maul. Swing it like that with a maul mindset (muscle memory from repetition in the past) and technique, you aren't going to get any sort of good results with it. It takes some time and thinking about it to get the different technique down, muscle memory doesn't happen with a few test swings. And learning it wrong, doing it wrong over an extended session or sessions, will give you muscle memory that is wrong, and it still won't work right. No amount of muscle is going to compensate and give adequate results.

I do the fiskars like the guy in the vid, but also drop my knees just a little, dropping my body in other words, just a hair before impact, that gives even more additional speed. 

The fiskars really only works well with speed, accuracy, reading the wood good, not half good, and the combo of all that plus sharp as the technique. It's also a big plus to start at the outside and work in, right away exactly opposite from how most guys approach a big round with a heavy maul, they want to smack it down the center.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 22, 2014)

zogger said:


> right away exactly opposite from how most guys approach a big round with a heavy maul, they want to smack it down the center.


i gotta say, I split down the middle, axe or maul - or at least through the center of the grain. Because that is where the checks and cracks go.


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## Marshy (Nov 22, 2014)

Anything 12" or less I find the Fiskars will split in half on most hard woods.


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## zogger (Nov 22, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> i gotta say, I split down the middle, axe or maul - or at least through the center of the grain. Because that is where the checks and cracks go.



I can do it that way, two strikes near the edge leading to the center, with the grain, two cracks now. Next strike between the two perpendicular and an inch or two in, and slab off the outside piece with the bark. Do it again and again, now you have a clean round, no bark and it will split whichever way you need it to. to me, once the bark is off anything, it splits way mo bettah easier.

But right in the middle busting it in half, only smallish ones. I ain't got the grunt or technique whatever to do that, (speaking with a fiskars, not a maul) so I do it the other way. As a stunt I can walk a crack across a big one and eventually pop it, but it wastes strikes, not as effective, so I don't do it much.

I always have to find the easiest way that works for me, and we are all different. I can't really muscle anything, I have to finesse it.

This is why we all get different results with the same or similar tools.

And yes, I play around a lot when splitting, trying this or that, fun for me. Sometimes I am really just trying to put wood in the stack, so I'll stick to what I know -so far- what works in that situation, but a lot of times I try different stuff and stop and think about it. Always like to learn new stuff.

Another reason I liked the hokey fiskars promo vid, at least it is an attempt to take the human variables out. Something like those axe holder machines done independently would be a good scientific test. Especially if you could adjust speed of machine swing, and had plenty of the same size wood. The axes and mauls would have to be in stock as shipped form for the initial tests.


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## zogger (Nov 22, 2014)

Marshy said:


> Anything 12" or less I find the Fiskars will split in half on most hard woods.



Yes, I was referring to really large rounds, not small ones.


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## Philbert (Nov 22, 2014)

zogger said:


> It takes some time and thinking about it to get the different technique down, . . .The fiskars really only works well with speed, accuracy, reading the wood good, not half good, and the combo of all that plus sharp as the technique.





zogger said:


> I always have to find the easiest way that works for me, . . . . a lot of times I try different stuff and stop and think about it.



So you're sayin' that the Fiskars is the _thinking man's_ maul?

Philbert


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 22, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Just tried it on the biggest round. Went through it. Starting to love it already lol. The other rounds are some tough stuff. If I have to use wedges for each piece I'm going to throw it back into the woods.



Why throw it away? Bust it with wedge sledge then try again with Fiskars or maul. Most of my clear grain wood splits with Fiskars except the big rounds. Halve them and back to Fiskars. Sometimes the Fiskars doesn't work then I pick up the maul with left hand, 10 lb sledge with right hand, set maul in Fiskars' mark and pound away with the sledge. Purpose of holding the maul and hitting with sledge is so the round stays in place to be "caressed loveingly" with the splitting tools.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 22, 2014)

svk said:


> There's going to be some wood thatjust doesn't split; elm, etc. Cut it short enough to stick in the fireplace whole.



Or noodle it. I throw nothing away that can be made into good wood. I uisually have about 5% of a load that won't split - it goes to the noodle pile.

Harry K


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## zogger (Nov 22, 2014)

Philbert said:


> So you're sayin' that the Fiskars is the _thinking man's_ maul?
> 
> Philbert




More like I am easily amused...HAHAHAHA!


----------



## Motorsen (Nov 22, 2014)

Got to have an axe plan as well as a saw plan. You can't just have "one axe fix all". I have a heavy bastard for the big and gnarly stuff, and then a 3 or 4pound (can't remember right now it's in the back of the car and it's dark and raining) Hultafors for fair splitting conditions. Got a short chopping axe for kindling etc. I think I've got 7 or 8 axes around. None of then are bad. Just better suited for various jobs. A one axe plan would be a hydraulic splitter! Pick the right tool for the job and get it done. 
Just my humble opinion.

Motorsen


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## zogger (Nov 22, 2014)

Motorsen said:


> Got to have an axe plan as well as a saw plan. You can't just have "one axe fix all". I have a heavy bastard for the big and gnarly stuff, and then a 3 or 4pound (can't remember right now it's in the back of the car and it's dark and raining) Hultafors for fair splitting conditions. Got a short chopping axe for kindling etc. I think I've got 7 or 8 axes around. None of then are bad. Just better suited for various jobs. A one axe plan would be a hydraulic splitter! Pick the right tool for the job and get it done.
> Just my humble opinion.
> 
> Motorsen



What you said. I have different saws, axes and trucks, all have a different purpose.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 23, 2014)

zogger said:


> Been saying that over and over again now for years. It just is not, ain't an 8lb maul. *Swing it like that with a maul mindset (muscle memory from repetition in the past) and technique, you aren't going to get any sort of good results with it. It takes some time and thinking about it to get the different technique down, muscle memory doesn't happen with a few test swings*. And learning it wrong, doing it wrong over an extended session or sessions, will give you muscle memory that is wrong, and it still won't work right. No amount of muscle is going to compensate and give adequate results.
> 
> I do the fiskars like the guy in the vid, but also drop my knees just a little, dropping my body in other words, just a hair before impact, that gives even more additional speed.
> 
> *The fiskars really only works well with speed, accuracy, reading the wood good, not half good, and the combo of all that plus sharp as the technique.* *It's also a big plus to start at the outside and work in, right away exactly opposite from how most guys approach a big round with a heavy maul, they want to smack it down the center.*



Just found out you're absolutely right man. Swung the Fiskars for 4 hours. First I did my usual swing, fast and hard right in the middle. Didn't do much damage. Tried it a few more times. Then I started from the outside in. Big oak cookie round couldn't take it and split. Then I started on the big poplar rounds. They have a 2-3" circle of rot around the outer edge. With the poplar, I definitely had to strike it from the outside. I felt like I had to study the round a bit more vs how I used to split with a maul. I split the same way I throw punches in boxing, everything with bad intentions lol. 



turnkey4099 said:


> Why throw it away? Bust it with wedge sledge then try again with Fiskars or maul. Most of my clear grain wood splits with Fiskars except the big rounds. Halve them and back to Fiskars. Sometimes the Fiskars doesn't work then I pick up the maul with left hand, 10 lb sledge with right hand, set maul in Fiskars' mark and pound away with the sledge. Purpose of holding the maul and hitting with sledge is so the round stays in place to be "caressed loveingly" with the splitting tools.
> 
> Harry K



I don't know dude, the stuff I'm talking about is sweetgum. Although, I've been talking to a wood burner at work. I let most of the people I speak to know I burn wood. Always on the lookout for a source. Anyway, the guy has been burning for 30 years. He knows all about tree identification. Well, I volunteered to clean him chimney for him since he has bad knees. Guess he was so appreciative he's letting me use his splitter, 24' ladder, and chimney brush. Now I can get all the sweetgum I want.


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

Big fiskars they don't sell in the US and a couple young dudes whacking some mambo rounds...I think I would get tired, too....


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

And here's No Spill Jill's...err..cousin using a bolt on a log splitting gadget


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## KenJax Tree (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm sold where do i buy her


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ambull01 (Nov 23, 2014)

zogger said:


> Big fiskars they don't sell in the US and a couple young dudes whacking some mambo rounds...I think I would get tired, too....




I want one.


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## svk (Nov 23, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> I want one.


Maybe we can get one of our European members to ship about 10 of them to us.


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## Marshy (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> Maybe we can get one of our European members to ship about 10 of them to us.


I'd be interested in knowing what that would cost.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> Maybe we can get one of our European members to ship about 10 of them to us.


I would like to be in on that.


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

http://www.amazon.de/Fiskars-122150-Spalthammer-SAFE-T-X39/dp/B004ARHEY4

http://www.fiskars.de/Garten/Produkte/Holzbearbeitung/Axte/122161-Spalthammer-X46


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## Philbert (Nov 23, 2014)

"http://www.amazon.de/Fiskars-122150-Spalthammer-SAFE-T-X39/dp/B004ARHEY4"
82.95 EUR = 102.580 USD, plus shipping.

"http://www.fiskars.de/Garten/Produkte/Holzbearbeitung/Axte/122161-Spalthammer-X46"
These would be interesting to try. Since some of them appear more similar in appearance to 'conventional' splitting mauls, they could shine some light on the whole '_Magic Fiskars_' mystique.

Philbert


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

translate

https://translate.google.com/transl...e/Holzbearbeitung/Axte/122161-Spalthammer-X46

https://translate.google.com/transl...s-122150-Spalthammer-SAFE-T-X39/dp/B004ARHEY4


----------



## Philbert (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Ambull01 (Nov 23, 2014)

Philbert said:


> "http://www.amazon.de/Fiskars-122150-Spalthammer-SAFE-T-X39/dp/B004ARHEY4"
> 82.95 EUR = 102.580 USD, plus shipping.
> 
> "http://www.fiskars.de/Garten/Produkte/Holzbearbeitung/Axte/122161-Spalthammer-X46"
> ...



$102 for a maul, no thanks. So far the Fiskars works for my needs and that's all that matters. A Council Tool maul and some wedges is next then I'll be set for life (as far as a splitting axe).


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## lone wolf (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> I'd be curious at what weight of tool the *average* person could generate the most energy from a strike when you take in speed and weight.
> 
> I'd guess somewhere between 6-8...


8 pounder works best all around I keep telling them but no one listens.


----------



## svk (Nov 23, 2014)

zogger said:


> translate
> 
> https://translate.google.com/transl...e/Holzbearbeitung/Axte/122161-Spalthammer-X46
> 
> https://translate.google.com/transl...s-122150-Spalthammer-SAFE-T-X39/dp/B004ARHEY4



So the 46 is 10 lbs and 39 is 8 lbs, 9 oz head. 

Looks like a real sharp edge (the knid that American mauls need serious work to achieve) on that 46 also. I think this one would be one BAMF in difficult rounds.


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> So the 46 is 10 lbs and 39 is 8 lbs, 9 oz head.
> 
> Looks like a real sharp edge (the knid that American mauls need serious work to achieve) on that 46 also. I think this one would be one BAMF in difficult rounds.



Certainly looked like it in the vid. Wore that young dude out fast but he got some dang big splits out of it!


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## BeatCJ (Nov 23, 2014)

And to me, that's the advantage to the 6 lb. I wasn't that wiped out when I got done loading and splitting a truckload...


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

BeatCJ said:


> And to me, that's the advantage to the 6 lb. I wasn't that wiped out when I got done loading and splitting a truckload...



There's that for sure. Main reason I like the original supersplitter, like a whiffle ball bat! You don't get tired swinging it.

I like having a variety, something like that mambo x46 looks real good for the gnarly stuff you get into, but not for every piece. I paid close to a hundred for the 6 something lb wooden handled version, the husky maul, so around 100 for the big fiskars doesn't seem out of line.

I know the monster maul is even heavier at I think 14 lbs but dang, that's just too much and it's clunky.


----------



## BeatCJ (Nov 23, 2014)

My thought is that if i need a 10 lb maul, I'll drive a wedge or two. I used to operate a 12 lb sledge all day, but that was almost 30 years ago. I also got REALLY good at replacing handles. We carried 4 hammers in the crew truck, a couple of 8 lbers and a couple of 12s for when the going got tough. The handles in the 8's lasted a lot longer.


----------



## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

Husky modern style splitting axes in action, making uglies out of big cookies..not really a great test but you can see them


----------



## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

BeatCJ said:


> My thought is that if i need a 10 lb maul, I'll drive a wedge or two. I used to operate a 12 lb sledge all day, but that was almost 30 years ago. I also got REALLY good at replacing handles. We carried 4 hammers in the crew truck, a couple of 8 lbers and a couple of 12s for when the going got tough. The handles in the 8's lasted a lot longer.



What happens with me when I try to use wedges is they get stuck and buried. They need to be bigger and fatter than the hammer head, so you can chase them down into the wood all the way to the bottom and out if it doesn't split. The wooden handled husky splitter I have, you can do that, but not my sledge hammer.

What I do now is if I catch myself reaching for a wedge I flip that round aside and come back later and have a noodle party. Always wind up with some in most every batch of wood.


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## benp (Nov 23, 2014)

zogger said:


> Certainly looked like it in the vid. Wore that young dude out fast but he got some dang big splits out of it!



I can appreciate their tenacity going after those rounds.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 23, 2014)

zogger said:


> What happens with me when I try to use wedges is they get stuck and buried.



That's why I have at least 3. Don't normally need them all, but if 2 are stuck, the 3rd goes in near the edge to at least free up one of the others.

(Worst case Zog, you can try laying another wedge on its side, over the top of the buried wedge, and maybe drive another 2 inches with the sledge hammer.)

Philbert


----------



## lone wolf (Nov 23, 2014)

Philbert said:


> That's why I have at least 3. Don't normally need them all, but if 2 are stuck, the 3rd goes in near the edge to at least free up one of the others.
> 
> Philbert


You can always noodle it.


----------



## Philbert (Nov 23, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> You can always noodle it.



Risky when it the round is filled with forged, steel wedges!

Philbert


----------



## lone wolf (Nov 23, 2014)

Philbert said:


> Risky when it the round is filled with forged, steel wedges!
> 
> Philbert


It takes the pressure off if you get close. What kind of wood you getting a bunch of wedges stuck in anyway?


----------



## BeatCJ (Nov 23, 2014)

I got all of the wedges my grandpa had with him stuck in an oak round one time...

My uncle was really irritated he didn't send it as a saw log, I was told he burned a $10,000 tree. I would be surprised if he didn't do it more than once...


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

Philbert said:


> That's why I have at least 3. Don't normally need them all, but if 2 are stuck, the 3rd goes in near the edge to at least free up one of the others.
> 
> (Worst case Zog, you can try laying another wedge on its side over the buried wedge, and maybe drive another 2 inches with the sledge hammer.)
> 
> Philbert



Hmm, I only have two. I could always use the maul and sledge hammer that dude in. I don't like doing that, but do it when necessary. Like I said, I am way more into noodling now. I just don't want to be hassled with real gnarly stuff. A couple bucks gas and mix oil and bar oil and some trigger time can do a lot of heavy duty noodling of gnarly stuff. My elbow just has never gotten back to normal since it popped last summer, I can do light weight easy splitting mostly. I don't want to make it worse. The easy to medium stuff is still a LOT of wood I can do, so that's good enough.


----------



## mn woodcutter (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> So the 46 is 10 lbs and 39 is 8 lbs, 9 oz head.
> 
> Looks like a real sharp edge (the knid that American mauls need serious work to achieve) on that 46 also. I think this one would be one BAMF in difficult rounds.


So i wonder if it would generate more splitting force because it's heavier or would the lighter and faster X27 do better? Anyone want to chime in?


----------



## svk (Nov 23, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> So i wonder if it would generate more splitting force because it's heavier or would the lighter and faster X27 do better? Anyone want to chime in?


Two completely different tools. These are heavyweights so should only be used on difficult wood. Very few people could swing a ten pounder very long.


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## mn woodcutter (Nov 23, 2014)

svk said:


> Two completely different tools. These are heavyweights so should only be used on difficult wood. Very few people could swing a ten pounder very long.


I was joking because the last 100 posts in this thread have been an argument of such things.


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## zogger (Nov 23, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> So i wonder if it would generate more splitting force because it's heavier or would the lighter and faster X27 do better? Anyone want to chime in?



Those guys were splitting fairly tall and beefy rounds, what it was designed for.

I could see several uses, say a common one, someone with a mechanical splitter but no log lift. Bust the big ones up to a size you can heft easy to get on the beam. Or in the woods getting the wood, bust em up smaller to load on the truck. In the yard, something beyond a lightweight axe but still doable with a heavy maul, what we call gnarly stuff.

It's a little bigger and heavier than most box store mauls, plus sharp, I imagine it busts pretty good. Certainly wouldn't want to use it on every piece of wood, every swing, unless I was in weight/resistance training for some sport.

In smaller good wood, nope, a lightweight axe would be loads faster. In big wood, that big momma would be faster.

editops, joking ha...

Well, if some guy could wrangle one of those around as fast as most guys could swing an x27, he could be crowned king splittin dude 0 rama! 

I got 15 splits in a near square 16 x 16 red oak round in 40 seconds before..like to see similar someone swinging that x46 beast in a much bigger chunk of wood...


----------



## svk (Nov 23, 2014)

mn woodcutter said:


> I was joking because the last 100 posts in this thread have been an argument of such things.



LOL

So if one billiard ball is traveling at.....


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## BeatCJ (Nov 24, 2014)

... the speed of sound, can you still hear a facepalm in the forest?


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## Whitespider (Nov 24, 2014)

svk said:


> _*So if one billiard ball is traveling at.....*_





BeatCJ said:


> _*... the speed of sound*_


Now you've really made things difficult to predict.
Strange things happen to a moving object as it transitions into, an out of the speed of sound.
*


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## Chris-PA (Nov 24, 2014)

If a billiard ball hits a tree in a forest, and nobody hears it, who buys the next round?


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

lone wolf said:


> 8 pounder works best all around I keep telling them but no one listens.



8 pounder huh. I'll see if Council Tool has one vice the 6 pounder. I've been thinking about the optimum splitting height. This will vary from person to person though. Figured there's probably a general guideline of how high the round should sit. Maybe knee high or below.


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## Whitespider (Nov 24, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> _*I've been thinking about the optimum splitting height.*_


Optimally, the handle should be horizontal when the head strikes.
So the optimum height would depend on the person's build, technique, handle length and shape, plus something I'm sure I'm not thinking about this morning.
*


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

Whitespider said:


> Optimally, the handle should be horizontal when the head strikes.
> So the optimum height would depend on the person's build, technique, handle length and shape, plus something I'm sure I'm not thinking about this morning.
> *



Cool, I'll test this. I was actually thinking the handle should be slight below parallel. Seems like that would give the maximum amount of force/power then returns would diminish from there. WTH do I know though, only have about a year of splitting experience lol.


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## Philbert (Nov 24, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> I've been thinking about the optimum splitting height. . . . Maybe knee high or below.



I was taught to bend my knees when I split, so my standing knee height is higher than my squatting knee height, if that makes sense. When I have a lot of wood to split, I like to have a few different height rounds to use as a splitting base, and choose, depending on the wood. 

Philbert


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## Whitespider (Nov 24, 2014)

Bending your knees increase the power a tad, but more importantly it reduces the strain on your back a bunch.
*


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## Philbert (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm not sure of the physics (and not looking to start that again) but I am thinking that it also carries the blade of the maul/head of the sledge hammer down straight into the wood, as opposed to in an arc. The difference may be minimal in a practical sense. Anyway, it probably means that I prefer a slightly lower splitting surface than if I stood with my knees locked. I always prefer to split on a raised surface than the ground.

Philbert


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

Philbert said:


> I was taught to bend my knees when I split, so my standing knee height is higher than my squatting knee height, if that makes sense. When I have a lot of wood to split, I like to have a few different height rounds to use as a splitting base, and choose, depending on the wood.
> 
> Philbert



Unless you're @benp (hope I did that right). That guy splits logs. He needs a tall round to stand on to split his stuff.


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## BeatCJ (Nov 24, 2014)

Toad22t said:


> View attachment 380273





Whitespider said:


> Now you've really made things difficult to predict.
> Strange things happen to a moving object as it transitions into, an out of the speed of sound.
> *


And, to add complexity, the speed of sound varies with altitude/elevation.



Ambull01 said:


> 8 pounder huh. I'll see if Council Tool has one vice the 6 pounder. I've been thinking about the optimum splitting height. This will vary from person to person though. Figured there's probably a general guideline of how high the round should sit. Maybe knee high or below.


I agree, if you could have only one, the 8lb would probably be it. But I don't/won't have but one, I'm good with my 6lb and a handful of wedges and an ax of some sort. Works for me in my conditions and wood.


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## svk (Nov 24, 2014)

In theory I can see that hitting the split with the whole cutting edge would work best.

In practice I have had better luck with my rounds on or close to the ground. I have a big maple chopping block that is about 10" tall and then putting a 20" round on top of this still has it slightly below "optimum". But they seem to split easier.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

svk said:


> In theory I can see that hitting the split with the whole cutting edge would work best.
> 
> In practice I have had better luck with my rounds on or close to the ground. I have a big maple chopping block that is about 10" tall and then putting a 20" round on top of this still has it slightly below "optimum". But they seem to split easier.



Hmm, I was thinking hitting the split at an angle would be best lol. I have no idea why I'm spending so much freaking time breaking down the art of splitting wood. Anyway, I usually start a wedge at an angle because I feel like it goes in easier. Then I straighten it out once it enters the round. Was thinking hitting the round with a slight angle (upper portion of blade slanted down) may go into the round easier and possibly reduce the chance of the handle hitting the wood. 

My knee height with shoes on is approximately 21". I've tried taller splitting platforms but feel like I lose a lot of power. Wish I could has as much enthusiasm for my real, salary earning job as I have with splitting wood


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## BeatCJ (Nov 24, 2014)

More choices of your own splitting wood.


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

BeatCJ said:


> More choices of your own splitting wood.



True. Plus I have an excuse and am allowed to use a chainsaw.


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## Chris-PA (Nov 24, 2014)

My favorite axe is a 4-1/2lb that has been sharpened a bit too much, so it has a fatter profile but also the face has become quite rounded. The thing just works. With the rounded face the angle at which it hits may be less important. Also, having the wood closer to the ground gives you a longer distance in which to swing, and therefore longer to get the tool up to speed. 

I tend to do more of a knee bend when I'm splitting wood that is stringy with a sharp, narrow taper axe. Then I bend quite a bit on the last hit to pull the axe head down through the round and cut the strings against the block.


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## benp (Nov 24, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Unless you're @benp (hope I did that right). That guy splits logs. He needs a tall round to stand on to split his stuff.



Lol..

Trust me, I've had my share of stinkers that won't budge. 

I had some gnarly red maple yesterday and Saturday that was twisted. That sucked.

Always good to have more tools at your disposal.

And thanks to Zogger's video, I now want those Fiskar's mauls. I ALMOST ordered one off of the Amazon site, just to see what shipping would be.


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## svk (Nov 24, 2014)

Speaking of technique, this guy has it down....


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

svk said:


> Speaking of technique, this guy has it down....




Umm, that's one bad dude. He's wearing new age Jesus sandals to split rounds!!

His aim kinda sucks too. Unless he meant to strike it in 20 different places.


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## zogger (Nov 24, 2014)

benp said:


> Lol..
> 
> Trust me, I've had my share of stinkers that won't budge.
> 
> ...



Which one, the big momma x46? goferit! Lot of us would like to know I bet! I ain't got the loot now, but maybe next year I can afford another axe.


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## Philbert (Nov 24, 2014)

zogger said:


> I bet! I ain't got the loot now, but maybe next year I can afford another axe.


Maybe Santa will bring you a 3D printer and you can print your own?

Philbert


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## benp (Nov 24, 2014)

zogger said:


> Which one, the big momma x46? goferit! Lot of us would like to know I bet! I ain't got the loot now, but maybe next year I can afford another axe.



The X37 is 8lbs and I might go for that.

Shipping looks to be 25 bucks. I think I need to double check this.

The total for the X37 shipped comes to * EUR 74,56 = to $92.77. *

Hmmm


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## Ambull01 (Nov 24, 2014)

benp said:


> The X37 is 8lbs and I might go for that.
> 
> Shipping looks to be 25 bucks. I think I need to double check this.
> 
> ...



Not too bad. Ya'll are going to turn me into a axe/maul fanatic to go along with my chainsaw addiction.


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## TheViking (Dec 2, 2014)

Hmm wow I was just wondering about axes the other day and what to get... I really like this forum!


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

TheViking said:


> Hmm wow I was just wondering about axes the other day and what to get... I really like this forum!



Just don't go into the Chainsaw section. If you do, it will brain wash you into thinking you need at least 20 saws to cut firewood.


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## svk (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Just don't go into the Chainsaw section. If you do, it will brain wash you into thinking you need at least 20 saws to cut firewood.


And ONLY pro saws actually cut wood. If you buy a homeowner saw it probably won't start, let alone cut enough wood to meet your needs You know, they just arent durable enough to last


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

svk said:


> And ONLY pro saws actually cut wood. If you buy a homeowner saw it probably won't start, let alone cut enough wood to meet your needs You know, they just arent durable enough to last



lol. Forgot has to be at least 60cc as well. Just bought a 6421 so I'm already brainwashed. Just couldn't swallow my pride and buy a 5020AV for less than $200.


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## svk (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> lol. Forgot has to be at least 60cc as well. Just bought a 6421 so I'm already brainwashed. Just couldn't swallow my pride and buy a 5020AV for less than $200.


Although if you dont own a 550XP or MS261 you can't be in the club either....

In no way is this a dis on either of those models as the 550 is on the list when my 65 finally dies.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

svk said:


> Although if you dont own a 550XP or MS261 you can't be in the club either....
> 
> In no way is this a dis on either of those models as the 550 is on the list when my 65 finally dies.



Great, I thought the 6421 made me an honorary member. 

Looks like you have some older saws, hope this 6421 lasts too. I don't really feel like shopping for another saw anytime soon. I was seriously obsessed with CL/ebay/trading post for about 3 weeks looking for the best deal. 

As for axes/splitting, I think I'll pick up a Collins maul soon. They have them at a store near me. Then I'll take it right to their service window and see if they'll grind off the hump thingy right after the blade's edge. No idea what that's supposed to do but hear it helps. My grandfather and great grandfather would roll their eyes if they knew about the time I spend researching axes, chainsaws, mauls, wedges, etc. They used what they had around and made it work for them. Hillbilly can do attitude.


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## svk (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Great, I thought the 6421 made me an honorary member.
> 
> Looks like you have some older saws, hope this 6421 lasts too. I don't really feel like shopping for another saw anytime soon. I was seriously obsessed with CL/ebay/trading post for about 3 weeks looking for the best deal.
> 
> As for axes/splitting, I think I'll pick up a Collins maul soon. They have them at a store near me. Then I'll take it right to their service window and see if they'll grind off the hump thingy right after the blade's edge. No idea what that's supposed to do but hear it helps. My grandfather and great grandfather would roll their eyes if they knew about the time I spend researching axes, chainsaws, mauls, wedges, etc. They used what they had around and made it work for them. Hillbilly can do attitude.


Thats a very respectable saw you picked up. And you now belong to a special cult of Dolmar and Makita owners. 

I would consider a Dolmar as a future large saw purchase and we got a new dealership in town. The owner is a well known small engine mechanic so that makes it a bit more attractive. And the sales guy is a nice guy too.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

svk said:


> Thats a very respectable saw you picked up. And you now belong to a special cult of Dolmar and Makita owners.
> 
> I would consider a Dolmar as a future large saw purchase and we got a new dealership in town. The owner is a well known small engine mechanic so that makes it a bit more attractive. And the sales guy is a nice guy too.



Oh man, get one! Those are some beautiful saws. Look like works of art unless they're just using special lighting techniques to make them look sexy. 

About the dealerships, I used the Dolmar dealer locator and it looks like there's one 17 miles away from me. Doesn't sound like a true chainsaw place though. Is it the same for you? Also noticed a small engine repair shop and some farm supply stores listed as dealers. Is that the typical Dolmar dealer?


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## svk (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Oh man, get one! Those are some beautiful saws. Look like works of art unless they're just using special lighting techniques to make them look sexy.
> 
> About the dealerships, I used the Dolmar dealer locator and it looks like there's one 17 miles away from me. Doesn't sound like a true chainsaw place though. Is it the same for you? Also noticed a small engine repair shop and some farm supply stores listed as dealers. Is that the typical Dolmar dealer?


Not sure. I really knew nothing about Dolmar until I read the hype on here. Mine is in an auto parts shop but as I mentioned the owner is a long time small engine guy.


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## mikey517 (Dec 3, 2014)

svk said:


> And ONLY pro saws actually cut wood. If you buy a homeowner saw it probably won't start, let alone cut enough wood to meet your needs You know, they just arent durable enough to last


The first year I burned wood for heat, I cut all my logs with the lowly and much maligned Husky 240e. The next year, I got my Husky 353, cut my wood with that, and burned in the same stove. Pretty sure the wood burned hotter and longer with the upgraded saw.


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## olyman (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Just don't go into the Chainsaw section. If you do, it will brain wash you into thinking you need at least 20 saws to cut firewood.


 and NOTHING but a stihl...................


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

svk said:


> Not sure. I really knew nothing about Dolmar until I read the hype on here. Mine is in an auto parts shop but as I mentioned the owner is a long time small engine guy.



I see. Sounds like that is the norm then. Have to go in and meet the mechanic. Took my Homelite to a new small engine place 5 minutes away from me to adjust my carb settings. Guy wanted to charge me $80 for some ultrasonic carb cleaning contraption treatment. Told him no thanks as $80 is probably more than the chainsaw. He ended up fiddling with the carb jets fro about 20 minutes and charged me $20. Idle is set super high, chain spins fast even at idle. Throttle needs to be feathered to keep it running. Sooo, not really as big of a deal as I first thought. Hope these Dolmar dealers turn out to be better.


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

olyman said:


> and NOTHING but a stihl...................



lol. I don't know why you guys love Stihl so much. Understand they're a great chainsaw company but I'm not that crazy how they charge more for chainsaws because of their name recognition. People automatically think top of the line chainsaw even when it's actually the homeowner variety. Case in point, my brother. He bought a Stihl chainsaw for $128 a couple years ago that was a floor model. Found out I was getting a Makita for over twice the amount he paid and flipped out. Said why are you buying that when I bought a STIHL for less!? May have to drive to NC and see how the saws compare.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> lol. Forgot has to be at least 60cc as well. Just bought a 6421 so I'm already brainwashed. Just couldn't swallow my pride and buy a 5020AV for less than $200.


I don't need any more saws - heck, I don't need all of the ones I have now - but there is one more I want to get. A 5020 is it: I want to see how much I can get out of a ported 5020.


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## TheViking (Dec 3, 2014)

Guess I need that Husky 460 now even more.... My current Husky won't do it O


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## Ambull01 (Dec 3, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't need any more saws - heck, I don't need all of the ones I have now - but there is one more I want to get. A 5020 is it: I want to see how much I can get out of a ported 5020.



Hmm, you port saws? Ever worked on a 6421? Get the 5020 from VMinnovations. Refurbished selling for $129. Can't beat that.


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## Chris-PA (Dec 3, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Hmm, you port saws? Ever worked on a 6421? Get the 5020 from VMinnovations. Refurbished selling for $129. Can't beat that.


I only port my own for fun - I don't have the facilities, tools, time or experience to take on work for others. I will probably get a refurb 5020 from them eventually, but while that is a good deal it would still be the second highest amount I've ever paid for a saw.


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## CTYank (Dec 4, 2014)

Chris-PA said:


> I don't need any more saws - heck, I don't need all of the ones I have now - but there is one more I want to get. A 5020 is it: I want to see how much I can get out of a ported 5020.



If you've never run a PP5020, you're in for a pleasant surprise. For such a cheapie, they really rip, bone stock. I've got about 3 yrs on mine now, so it's broken in.  It had no problem with the OEM bar fully engaged in blowdown hickory. Of course, the chain was sharp; that OEM "Vanguard" chain spit serious chips. The strato-scavenging doesn't hurt, for fuel endurance & local air quality.

A 16" bar works very nicely with it, better suited to confined areas, like a hardwood top that you're limbing. Second b&c simpler to pack into the woods than a second saw.

Bud I volunteer with tried it (he still has his Stihl 250- avail. cheap) and got his own as soon as he had the $. Still loves it, and the 455r I sold him. What I'm saying is that you might even be happy running it as you brung it. Except for the pleasure of tweaking it.

Ill be watching & listening to how it works out for you.opcorn:


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## svk (Dec 4, 2014)

CTYank said:


> If you've never run a PP5020, you're in for a pleasant surprise. For such a cheapie, they really rip, bone stock. I've got about 3 yrs on mine now, so it's broken in.  It had no problem with the OEM bar fully engaged in blowdown hickory. Of course, the chain was sharp; that OEM "Vanguard" chain spit serious chips. The strato-scavenging doesn't hurt, for fuel endurance & local air quality.
> 
> A 16" bar works very nicely with it, better suited to confined areas, like a hardwood top that you're limbing. Second b&c simpler to pack into the woods than a second saw.
> 
> ...


I remember this saw being over it's head in 18" sugar maple and needing to get rescued by an old junker Husky. And the chain was definitely sharp as you spent half the morning sharpening it....

I was "strongly encouraged" to try this saw and to me it felt like a somewhat heavy, modestly powered 50 CC saw.

Do you get kickbacks from Poulan and Council Tools? From what I can see they are average performing tools yet you carry on like they are the silver bullets of the arborist world.


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## turnkey4099 (Dec 4, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> 8 pounder huh. I'll see if Council Tool has one vice the 6 pounder. I've been thinking about the optimum splitting height. This will vary from person to person though. Figured there's probably a general guideline of how high the round should sit. Maybe knee high or below.



I like mine sitting about waist high at the top = results in the ax/maul being level when it strikes. My splitting blocks are cut to get that result from the average length of the stuff I'm splitting.

Harry K


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## turnkey4099 (Dec 4, 2014)

Ambull01 said:


> Umm, that's one bad dude. He's wearing new age Jesus sandals to split rounds!!
> 
> His aim kinda sucks too. Unless he meant to strike it in 20 different places.



Very good lesson on how not to split wood. Gotta admire his 'jumping', gauranteed to hit the same spot every time!!! Even his wedge technique sucks. Best placement of the wedge is somewhat away from the center of the round not out on the edge. 

Harry K


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## Ambull01 (Dec 4, 2014)

turnkey4099 said:


> I like mine sitting about waist high at the top = results in the ax/maul being level when it strikes. My splitting blocks are cut to get that result from the average length of the stuff I'm splitting.
> 
> Harry K



I'll try that. Waist high seems a bit high to me though, unless you have one of those short legs long torso body type. I have some sweetgum rounds that I can cut into different sized splitting blocks. 



turnkey4099 said:


> Very good lesson on how not to split wood. Gotta admire his 'jumping', gauranteed to hit the same spot every time!!! Even his wedge technique sucks. Best placement of the wedge is somewhat away from the center of the round not out on the edge.
> 
> Harry K



lol. It looks kind of cool but I'm definitely not trying that technique. Probably miss the round and end up hitting my foot/shin. 
Yeah I learned the whole wedge on the edge thing by trial and error. Usually just busts through the outer part of the round which forces me to hammer it out. In the center never really worked either in the bigger stuff, tended to get swallowed up and had to take a maul to the round to free it.


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## Philbert (Jan 23, 2015)

A few more good axe references (USFS PDF):

Northeastern Logger's Handbook http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87208315/PDF

Using Axes http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf99232823/pdf99232823Pdpi72pt06.pdf

Philbert


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## BeatCJ (Jan 24, 2015)

Ambull01 said:


> Yeah I learned the whole wedge on the edge thing by trial and error. Usually just busts through the outer part of the round which forces me to hammer it out. In the center never really worked either in the bigger stuff, tended to get swallowed up and had to take a maul to the round to free it.


I try to never use a wedge unless I have a second available, too. Like Harry K says, somewhere between the center and the edge. I try to place the first one somewhere around halfway between the edge and the heart, leaves room to start a second. If I get them BOTH stuck, then I beat the opposite side to death with my maul, sometimes work the outside edge next to the wedge. In my wood, that has never failed to split a round for me.


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## zogger (Jan 24, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> I try to never use a wedge unless I have a second available, too. Like Harry K says, somewhere between the center and the edge. I try to place the first one somewhere around halfway between the edge and the heart, leaves room to start a second. If I get them BOTH stuck, then I beat the opposite side to death with my maul, sometimes work the outside edge next to the wedge. In my wood, that has never failed to split a round for me.



You need two, and/or an additional maul, etc because the dang wedge companies will not ship a big wedge! I want one longer than 16 inches so I can smack that dude ALL the way through the round, and I want it wide and thick. Even up to like a 20 lb wedge.

If I have to break out the hammer and wedge, I want it to work, because I am staring at something nasty.

Lack of real big wedges makes me noodle a lot more, I know full well the limitations of these normal size wedges they sell at the various hardware/farm stores. I very rarely wedge anymore precisely from getting multiples stuck.


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## woodchuck357 (Jan 24, 2015)

zogger said:


> You need two, and/or an additional maul, etc because the dang wedge companies will not ship a big wedge! I want one longer than 16 inches so I can smack that dude ALL the way through the round, and I want it wide and thick. Even up to like a 20 lb wedge.
> 
> If I have to break out the hammer and wedge, I want it to work, because I am staring at something nasty.
> 
> Lack of real big wedges makes me noodle a lot more, I know full well the limitations of these normal size wedges they sell at the various hardware/farm stores. I very rarely wedge anymore precisely from getting multiples stuck.


Gluts, large wooden wedges normally cut from dead limbs. One diagonal cut makes two.


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## zogger (Jan 24, 2015)

woodchuck357 said:


> Gluts, large wooden wedges normally cut from dead limbs. One diagonal cut makes two.



I make those for lifting logs for bucking, to get them off the ground, but never tried a hardwood wedge for splitting rounds. And also for felling, before a couple years ago I never owned any plastic wedges.


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## handsplit! (Oct 4, 2015)

Ymountainman said:


> I have over thirty axes. All old vintage ones that ring like a bell if tapped on. I've used almost all the patterns on single bits and double bits. I bought the dvd above on axes . I have lined them up and split green oak. In my opinion the best splitting axe is a 3.5lb Kelly jersey pattern axe. It will run thru the wood. I have big 5lb jersey patterns too and they don't do as good as the 3.5lb ones? I guess I can't swing them as fast. The jersey pattern seems to be a lot better pattern than any other axe in my opinion. On the old axes you can honestly put a shaving sharp edge with a file.





Ymountainman said:


> I have over thirty axes. All old vintage ones that ring like a bell if tapped on. I've used almost all the patterns on single bits and double bits. I bought the dvd above on axes . I have lined them up and split green oak. In my opinion the best splitting axe is a 3.5lb Kelly jersey pattern axe. It will run thru the wood. I have big 5lb jersey patterns too and they don't do as good as the 3.5lb ones? I guess I can't swing them as fast. The jersey pattern seems to be a lot better pattern than any other axe in my opinion. On the old axes you can honestly put a shaving sharp edge with a file.



Love the Jersey and Michigan style axe heads. 3-3 1/2 axe and 6-8lb mauls. Can't beat em! And a hickory handle. Nothing better. Would like to try an ash one sometime!


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## Ironworker (Oct 4, 2015)

Just finished splitting with a Gransfors large splitting axe and splitting maul, can't decide which one I like best, they are both good and really make the wood fly apart, by far they are the best splitting tools I've ever used and by a lot also.


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