# Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center Newsletters



## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 3, 2008)

I found this looking for info on Sim Limb. A few good bits in there.

http://www.wildfirelessons.net/Scratchline.aspx


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## Gologit (Mar 3, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I found this looking for info on Sim Limb. A few good bits in there.
> 
> http://www.wildfirelessons.net/Scratchline.aspx



Thanks for posting that.


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## techdave (Mar 3, 2008)

*thanks for the link...*

Now if I could just get my Yahoo favorites to accept it! LOL


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## Austin1 (Mar 4, 2008)

Ah memories! I sometimes I wish I was still 20 years younger and doing that!
My post is a bit off topic here but I learned lot's as a smoke jumper in my youth and I seen some scary sh** too, plus I got to see lot's of beautiful country. I tip my hat to the men & women that still do that.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 5, 2008)

Austin1 said:


> I learned lot's as a smoke jumper in my youth and I seen some scary sh** too,



Like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane and into a raging fire? Noooo, that don't sound scary to meeee!


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## Austin1 (Mar 5, 2008)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane and into a raging fire? Noooo, that don't sound scary to meeee!


Oh no I wouldn't jump out of a perfectly good plane more like getting dropped of by chopper from hot spot to hot spot.


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## tek9tim (Mar 6, 2008)

Austin1 said:


> Oh no I wouldn't jump out of a perfectly good plane more like getting dropped of by chopper from hot spot to hot spot.



So that isn't smokejumping, it's helitack. Totally different, at least in the states. Jumpers are delivered by plane and use parachutes. Rappellers slide down a rope out of a helicopter, and helitack get out of a helicopter after landing to fight a fire. 

Jumpers don't jump "raging fires", they jump small skunky ones that can be put out by 2-6 guys in less than a couple of days. They're an initial attack resource, and don't have the means to fight large fires despite what the movies tell you. 

It's bad enough that everyone assumes that the only people fighting forest fires are smokejumpers. Let's not muddy the waters by saying you were a jumper when you were a helitack. Anyone who doesn't really know much about it asks me "Oh, so you're a smokejumper?" My reply: "No, ma'am, I work for a living."


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 6, 2008)

tek9tim said:


> So that isn't smokejumping, it's helitack. Totally different, at least in the states. Jumpers are delivered by plane and use parachutes. Rappellers slide down a rope out of a helicopter, and helitack get out of a helicopter after landing to fight a fire.
> 
> Jumpers don't jump "raging fires", they jump small skunky ones that can be put out by 2-6 guys in less than a couple of days. They're an initial attack resource, and don't have the means to fight large fires despite what the movies tell you.
> 
> It's bad enough that everyone assumes that the only people fighting forest fires are smokejumpers. Let's not muddy the waters by saying you were a jumper when you were a helitack. Anyone who doesn't really know much about it asks me "Oh, so you're a smokejumper?" My reply: "No, ma'am, I work for a living."



I know guy who ran a ccrew of class C fallers out of Bend, OR for a few years. It amazes me thaat so many of the people wo work the line are so low paid. If i remeber right, the contracts paid $30/hr for the class C's and it was downhill from there. I could not imagine doing that much work, and mainaiting gear ffr so little.


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## techdave (Mar 6, 2008)

*Right on JP Sanborn!*

The wildland FFs are not paiod enough, and there aint enough career opportunites for them.

Eveybody is quick to prop up anyone in uniform. But they always forget the border patrol and the wildland FFs.

i got lots of buds who did their time in the military and even some who did a few years as major city cops without a single close call.

I dont know a single active border patrol (non slug) or experienced wildland FF who has not had at least one close call, aka brush with death.

Recently the fire regime her ein Socal seems to have changed, or is in a particularly bad cycle. Been lots of nasty near and actual burn overs since the Pines and Cedar fires.


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## bendtrees (Mar 7, 2008)

tek9tim said:


> So that isn't smokejumping, it's helitack. Totally different, at least in the states. Jumpers are delivered by plane and use parachutes. Rappellers slide down a rope out of a helicopter, and helitack get out of a helicopter after landing to fight a fire.
> 
> Jumpers don't jump "raging fires", they jump small skunky ones that can be put out by 2-6 guys in less than a couple of days. They're an initial attack resource, and don't have the means to fight large fires despite what the movies tell you.
> 
> It's bad enough that everyone assumes that the only people fighting forest fires are smokejumpers. Let's not muddy the waters by saying you were a jumper when you were a helitack. Anyone who doesn't really know much about it asks me "Oh, so you're a smokejumper?" My reply: "No, ma'am, I work for a living."



Sorry Tim, but this instantly reminds me why the only "fire" parties I go to anymore are usually Smokejumper's. You may use the fun barb of "I work for a living" as a joke. Thats fun and all, but I've been around enough of the Fire scene to realize that the "cream rises to the top." I can stand the blah blah posturing of the "typical" hand crew for about ten minutes. I figure they are young. The ridiculous elitism of a Hotshot crew I can hang with for even less time unless I find one or two who aren't too busy stroking their egos. Generally, Smokejumpers are the only fire folks who have anything worthwhile to share. Excuse the Rant.
-On a serious note Tim, you gotta consider that "smokejumper" may be the accepted terminology for Heliattack up north? (I don't know) Or perhaps it was 20 years ago. I advise showing a little respect prior to accusations of "muddying waters."


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## Austin1 (Mar 7, 2008)

bendtrees said:


> Sorry Tim, but this instantly reminds me why the only "fire" parties I go to anymore are usually Smokejumper's. You may use the fun barb of "I work for a living" as a joke. Thats fun and all, but I've been around enough of the Fire scene to realize that the "cream rises to the top." I can stand the blah blah posturing of the "typical" hand crew for about ten minutes. I figure they are young. The ridiculous elitism of a Hotshot crew I can hang with for even less time unless I find one or two who aren't too busy stroking their egos. Generally, Smokejumpers are the only fire folks who have anything worthwhile to share. Excuse the Rant.
> -On a serious note Tim, you gotta consider that "smokejumper" may be the accepted terminology for Heliattack up north? (I don't know) Or perhaps it was 20 years ago. I advise showing a little respect prior to accusations of "muddying waters."


I personally did not take any offense to his post. Smoke jumpers are a thing of the past if you ask me at least up here.I use the term, for meaning air born lol As you jump from hot spot to hot spot in a chopper yes I could repel and have done it. But I started when I was a young 19 I thought it would be a great summer job, but I got more involved did more training and cert than I had planned.


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## tek9tim (Mar 10, 2008)

tek9tim said:


> Totally different, at least in the states.





bendtrees said:


> Sorry Tim, but this instantly reminds me why the only "fire" parties I go to anymore are usually Smokejumper's. You may use the fun barb of "I work for a living" as a joke. Thats fun and all, but I've been around enough of the Fire scene to realize that the "cream rises to the top." I can stand the blah blah posturing of the "typical" hand crew for about ten minutes. I figure they are young. The ridiculous elitism of a Hotshot crew I can hang with for even less time unless I find one or two who aren't too busy stroking their egos. Generally, Smokejumpers are the only fire folks who have anything worthwhile to share. Excuse the Rant.
> -On a serious note Tim, you gotta consider that "smokejumper" may be the accepted terminology for Heliattack up north? (I don't know) Or perhaps it was 20 years ago. I advise showing a little respect prior to accusations of "muddying waters."



Now, you kinda took it a little wrong. I work right in between Missoula, Grangeville and McCall, thus work with a lot of jumpers from all 3 bases, and have friends working at all 3. There are a lot of good guys (and girls) in jumping. There are also a lot of really complacent, cocky, arrogant guys that are way more concerned with the jumping itself and being out of the base than with putting the fire out. District crews do have some young guys on them. But there are a lot of people that jumped, rappelled, or shot and are now settling down and getting a career job with benefits and retirement, since those jobs are few and far between on type 1 crews, let alone the toll that type 1 crews take on your body. So yes, the cream rises to the top. But the people who really enjoy the work and want to stay in it for a long time tend to go back to district work, running crews. 

You have to also remember that everyone in fire pokes fun at everybody else. But also, most people's perception of what jumpers, rappellers, and helitack do is way off of reality. If there aren't fires, they don't do anything. Aside from landscaping or cache work around the base. If they get out on a fire, they want to stay out as long as possible, and do. District crews have plenty of other stuff to do, and are much more closely accountable for our actions. If the boss thinks we're milking it, he'll give us hell when we get back in. The jumpers don't get questioned on that, because they don't work for the districts that they fight fire on. 

I also did not mean to discount jumpers based on the type of fires they fight. Type 5 IA fires are my bread and butter, and are what I generally prefer. 

In the end, I'm glad there are jumpers, and I respect most of them. The ones I don't are the ones that give me a good reason not to. I certainly do not have a prejudice. 

And you missed my caveat to his misuse of smokejumper. 

I didn't mean to piss people off, I just get tired of people calling all wildland firefighters smokejumpers. I had a guy tell me he used to smokejump, turned out he went on a couple of brush fire calls with his volunteer fire department. I just like to see proper terminology use.


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## bendtrees (Mar 11, 2008)

Yo Tim,

I suppose I may have an axe to grind in there somewhere. Sorry if I let that out on you. I suppose my experience with RDM, MSO, and North Cascades has been pretty positive. That being said, I have worked with them little. I suppose it's all PM material anyway not forum.
cheers


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 12, 2008)

bendtrees said:


> I suppose my experience with...



I take it you are out of Bend, OR. Do you know Joey Cornell?


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