# Point of entry



## Ohiowoodguy (May 28, 2008)

What, exactly, does cutting at point of entry mean? If you're limited to "12 inch at point of entry", does this mean 12 inches in diameter above the root swell, or at actual ground level? Some trees 12 inches in diameter at ground level may only be 4 inches DBH, because of butt swell or buttresses at ground level.


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2008)

*A ship entering a different country*

That is the only point of entry that I know of ,,???????????????????????????/


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## slowp (May 29, 2008)

tramp bushler said:


> That is the only point of entry that I know of ,,???????????????????????????/



Yes, I've been through Blaine, Oroville, and Nighthawk.....actually, I think they are called Ports of Entry.


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## tramp bushler (May 29, 2008)

*Your Right*

Ya Port of Entry , there ya go ...

These East coast guys with their short bars , it,s kind of confuseing describeing falling techniques because their bars are so short and they only have half their handle bars ....OH WELL ,,as long as the chain is sharp and it keeps going around I guess it can be figured out .. Mayby they are talking about boring cuts .That would be exciteing , An 044 or 372 with a 20" bar boring into a hardwood tree ...No wonder they advertise [ ARM CHAPS ] on this site ..

gumboot


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## slowp (May 29, 2008)

Tramp Bushler, I am ashamed to admit that I too only have a half wrap handle on my saws. I merely buck stuff up or cut tiny stuff. There have been times when I wished I had a full wrap, usually when I'm on a steep cutbank trying to get a bent over alder on the ground. But the Barbie Saw would not fit in the little pickup box if it had a full wrap. And with gas prices so high, I can't justify buying one for Twinkle. So, I shall continue to be an exception to the west coast tradition. Please don't kick me off the site! Like I said, I mostly buck up stuff so it should be ok....right? :blush:


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## Ohiowoodguy (May 29, 2008)

*real wood*

Aren't there any real loggers on this site?- or is everybody here just into that wussy soft-wood? If my bar is never too short, then its always too long!:smoking:


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## slowp (May 29, 2008)

Wussy soft wood is what the mills buy here and make boards out of and we have houses out of....We grow it quite well here thank you.  
Saw some video at our safety meeting today of hazard trees being cut down. Yup wussy 6 foot diameter soft woods with problems to make cutting them quite interesting. The camera went fuzzy on one after the cutter and filmer had to make a run for it as the tree began to split about 10 feet above the cut. Yup, it is woose wood and woose trees too. It brought back memories of how things were 20 years ago...pretty woosie then too.


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## ddhlakebound (May 29, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Aren't there any real loggers on this site?- or is everybody here just into that wussy soft-wood? If my bar is never too short, then its always too long!:smoking:




Surely there are some "real loggers" in the mills and sawshops where you live.

Maybe you should ask them how to identify which baby trees to cut, and which baby trees to leave....

BTW....its hard for your bar to be too short when all you cut is pecker poles. 

A smart fella doesn't need to be from the PNW to have loads of respect for the dangerous, hard work those guys do.


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## tramp bushler (May 30, 2008)

*We.ll let ya slide*

. I use a half wrap,,, For Pre Commercial thinning .... I,ve got a 5 bushel Yellow Cedar to fall this week .. It,s only worth about 5 grand on the local domestic market 
I,ve got about 250,000 board feet to cut this week coming ..I may be able to post some pics


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## slowp (May 30, 2008)

I am much relieved.


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## Gologit (May 30, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Aren't there any real loggers on this site?- or is everybody here just into that wussy soft-wood? If my bar is never too short, then its always too long!:smoking:



:monkey:


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## Ohiowoodguy (May 30, 2008)

slowp said:


> Wussy soft wood is what the mills buy here and make boards out of and we have houses out of....We grow it quite well here thank you.
> Saw some video at our safety meeting today of hazard trees being cut down. Yup wussy 6 foot diameter soft woods with problems to make cutting them quite interesting. The camera went fuzzy on one after the cutter and filmer had to make a run for it as the tree began to split about 10 feet above the cut. Yup, it is woose wood and woose trees too. It brought back memories of how things were 20 years ago...pretty woosie then too.



Imagine that same size tree only in maple or oak (ok, maybe not as tall), but with utility lines running through the limbs, houses and garages and streets and sidewalks within 20 feet, nails and chains in the trunk. Our mills buy hardwood; we can't usually give pine away. We do grow some biguns too. The 088 & 48" bar doesn't collect too much dust here.

But seriously: is point of entry measured at ground level or above the swell?


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## Gologit (May 30, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Imagine that same size tree only in maple or oak (ok, maybe not as tall), but with utility lines running through the limbs, houses and garages and streets and sidewalks within 20 feet, nails and chains in the trunk. Our mills buy hardwood; we can't usually give pine away. We do grow some biguns too. The 088 & 48" bar doesn't collect too much dust here.
> 
> But seriously: is point of entry measured at ground level or above the swell?



Yeah, okay...we're impressed. Now, what's this Point of Entry stuff? Is this something you read about, heard about, or made up out of your own head?

How does it apply to cutting trees? Is it some kind of wierd government thing? What???!!!

Why do you need to know it and how do you plan on using it? Or is this just some kind of little test you made up to check out our woods creds?


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## abohac (May 30, 2008)

*What the heck!*



Gologit said:


> Yeah, okay...we're impressed. Now, what's this Point of Entry stuff? Is this something you read about, heard about, or made up out your own head?
> 
> How does it apply to cutting trees? Is it some kind of wierd government thing? What???!!!
> 
> Why do you need to know it and how do you plan on using it? Or is this just some kind of little test you made up to check out our woods creds?



I don't want to get into who or what is a "real logger", and quite often I hear some new jargon concerning the woods but I have never heard the term "point of entry" when talking about cutting wood. Can you explain to all of us dopes what the heck you are talking about?


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## 2dogs (May 31, 2008)

abohac said:


> I don't want to get into who or what is a "real logger", and quite often I hear some new jargon concerning the woods but I have never heard the term "point of entry" when talking about cutting wood. Can you explain to all of us dopes what the heck you are talking about?



I think of entering a stand of trees but that is it. Help us out here.


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## Ohiowoodguy (May 31, 2008)

*Is this clear?*

Loggers here usually work on contracts which specify which trees in a stand to take. Trees are usually marked, or a minimum size (or certain species) is agreed upon between the owner and logger- usually a minimum diameter at breast height (DBH). I got into a deal with a logger who is taking "everything 12 inches or bigger in diameter at point of entry" for grade lumber and blocking, and I get to take the remaining trees (pecker poles?, come on!) for firewood (its 15 acres of clear-cutting: owner wants more cropland). I have asked the logger for specifics and recieved conflicting answers, but he is both crazy and dishonest-like most around here.
Please don't be insulting out of hand. I guess I shouldn't have used sarcasm to rouse an answer. Some of you should lighten up. I'm surprised 'cause all the loggers I've met over the years in Northern BC have been pretty laid-back.


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## Gologit (May 31, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Loggers here usually work on contracts which specify which trees in a stand to take. Trees are usually marked, or a minimum size (or certain species) is agreed upon between the owner and logger- usually a minimum diameter at breast height (DBH). I got into a deal with a logger who is taking "everything 12 inches or bigger in diameter at point of entry" for grade lumber and blocking, and I get to take the remaining trees (pecker poles?, come on!) for firewood (its 15 acres of clear-cutting: owner wants more cropland). I have asked the logger for specifics and recieved conflicting answers, but he is both crazy and dishonest-like most around here.
> Please don't be insulting out of hand. I guess I shouldn't have used sarcasm to rouse an answer. Some of you should lighten up. I'm surprised 'cause all the loggers I've met over the years in Northern BC have been pretty laid-back.



Okay...let me see if I have this figured out correctly. You've entered into an agreement with a man you consider dishonest and crazy but you're surprised when his answers to your questions don't make sense. I guess you could ask other loggers in the area but apparently you also consider them to be dishonest and crazy so you probably woudn't trust their word either.

Then, when we ask you to clarify your terms, you become sarcastic and defensive. And you still haven't, or won't, define your need for an answer. It's hard to help someone who can't be more specific about what he needs. 

You also seem to feel you have the right to lecture us on the tone of our response. You don't.

You also state that you feel insulted. That's your choice entirely but I don't see that it's justified. A thin skin around here will just cause you grief...toughen up a little.

The logger, crazy and dishonest as he may be, is going to cut everything he is entitled to and you get the rest...right? Do you pay him or the landowner anything? Do you have a written agreement or just a handshake?

The Point of Entry thing was your way of checking on the logger wasn't it? You're going to go around behind him and scale what he's cut to make sure he's being honest? Better make sure that he doesn't add violent to dishonest and crazy.


Let us know how this works out for you.


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## GASoline71 (May 31, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Aren't there any real loggers on this site?- or is everybody here just into that wussy soft-wood? If my bar is never too short, then its always too long!:smoking:



It's not all about the softwood... try packin a 046 with a 36" bar for 12 hours on a friggin' sidehill all day in the bush...

You can have your p u s s y hardwoods on flatlands...

Hows that for defensive/sarcastic Bob?



Gary


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## Gologit (Jun 1, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> It's not all about the softwood... try packin a 046 with a 36" bar for 12 hours on a friggin' sidehill all day in the bush...
> 
> You can have your p u s s y hardwoods on flatlands...
> 
> ...



 Hey Gary...good to see you back. That wasn't bad but I know you can do better.  You're probably just out of practise. I'd hate to think you were mellowing in your old age. Maybe somebody will post another oil thread and you can really get back in shape.


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## Tazman1602 (Jun 1, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> It's not all about the softwood... try packin a 046 with a 36" bar for 12 hours on a friggin' sidehill all day in the bush...
> 
> You can have your p u s s y hardwoods on flatlands...
> 
> ...



:sword:  

Hey whaddya mean? We have sidehills up here in MI. Heck it's at least 100 yards from the bottom of the hill at my deerblind to the top. 

"packin a 046 with a 36" bar for 12 hours on a friggin' sidehill all day in the bush..."

Those words spell "Coronary" to some of us. I can't even imagine doing that. More power to you dude.


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## slowp (Jun 1, 2008)

Tazman1602 said:


> :sword:
> 
> Hey whaddya mean? We have sidehills up here in MI. Heck it's at least 100 yards from the bottom of the hill at my deerblind to the top.
> 
> ...



Having worked in the woods in both places, here's an example of my comparison...I'm a PNW native who voluntarily was exiled to Wisconsin, where the people are very nice. I got to try on a cheesehead in the "Packer Bar" 

I'm walking through a logging unit in Wisconsin, thinking how flat it is, much like a park--my knees are liking it. I get out to the road and the logger is there, looking all worried. He was told me he just didn't like having a woman out in that steep, rugged country walking about. It was very steep to him. Later, I dug out a picture I had of a unit east of Morton I'd worked in and on and when I showed that photo to them, it ended the worries about me on steep ground. HOWEVER, I had difficulty figuring out where I was on the flat ground, and had to use my compass (if I forgot to notice the sun) to get around. There are no land marks to be seen and usually no main ups or downs. The ticks are horrid and the humidity was awful in the summer. I got an intensive course in mechanized logging too.


Ohio guy: you really shouldn't go into an agreement unless you totally understand what is going to be done--and have a written contract. A good logger will not mind explaining what he's going to do, and should be glad to answer any questions. Like, define Point of Entry. A really good one will also try hard to do what you want (if it is reasonable) as he has a reputation to keep up. If you don't like the one you talked to, look for somebody else. The Midwest has good ones and bad ones just like anywhere else. The good ones might have a waiting list but it is wise to wait for them. You also will probably have to pay more for a good job but what do you want? You get what you pay for and the good guys will give you less headaches. 

Out here some friends have had their land logged piece by piece. The last logger (I've worked with too) listened to what they wanted him to do, and did it, and he was so good that they want him back in 10 to 20 years to log it again. He declined to log part of the area, saying he could, but due to the slope it would make a big mess. He was a processor, skidder logger. That's an example of what you should look for.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 1, 2008)

Hey, I already created a bs thread several months back, maybe ya
should have just posted this there Point of entry sheesh is
that where my cowboy boots enter some dopes butt or what

Oh, and we have some fair side hills here Gary but definitely not
quite as large as yours, none snow capped, but do understand
carrying straight up hill say 3100 feet! It is a work out not even
toting a thing:monkey:

I have two saws with 36" bars on them and they get used quite often here. Hey maybe the point of entry to becoming a real tree
man is when ya have toted around saws with that much bar


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## Ohiowoodguy (Jun 1, 2008)

*Simple question*

Okay- now that we've all established that we all have the biggest wood (he-he) in the toughest situations; give it a rest.
I went into this deal with both jaded eyes open, aware of the risks and problems.
My motive for asking is to not cut what the logger is entitled to, since I'm going faster than him.
Does cutting a tree at a certain diameter at "point of entry" mean at ground level, or above the swell? If you don't know, please try to refrain from adding to the manure pit here, its FULL. Free speach is great, but whew!:deadhorse:


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## ddhlakebound (Jun 1, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Okay- now that we've all established that we all have the biggest wood (he-he) in the toughest situations; give it a rest.
> I went into this deal with both jaded eyes open, aware of the risks and problems.
> My motive for asking is to not cut what the logger is entitled to, since I'm going faster than him.
> Does cutting a tree at a certain diameter at "point of entry" mean at ground level, or above the swell? If you don't know, please try to refrain from adding to the manure pit here, its FULL. Free speach is great, but whew!:deadhorse:



:monkey: 

Well, I don't think point of entry means the diameter somewhere you're not entering the tree with the saw. 

But what I or anyone else here thinks it means don't mean squat. Because it's your loggers term, and only he knows what it means to him. 

So quit pissin around about the definitions of obtuse local terminology, and go ask the guy.


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## Gologit (Jun 2, 2008)

ddhlakebound said:


> :monkey:
> 
> Well, I don't think point of entry means the diameter somewhere you're not entering the tree with the saw.
> 
> ...



Good advice. Well said. I think what he wants is for us to validate some idea that he's already come up with. I can't really do that...mostly because I think the guy is a schmuck but also because I'm not entirely sure he's looking at his situation honestly.

He has issues with loggers but he'll get on here and suck our collective knowledge for his own gain without ever offering anything constructive in return. 

He doesn't trust the logger he's dealing with but he entered into an agreement with him anyway.

I really don't think there's much we can do for this guy.


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## Ohiowoodguy (Jun 3, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Good advice. Well said. I think what he wants is for us to validate some idea that he's already come up with. I can't really do that...mostly because I think the guy is a schmuck but also because I'm not entirely sure he's looking at his situation honestly.
> 
> He has issues with loggers but he'll get on here and suck our collective knowledge for his own gain without ever offering anything constructive in return.
> 
> ...



No help. You're allowed to say "I don't know" and move on. You don't have to post insults. If you choose not to believe or understand my explainations and clarifications, there's not much more I can do. 
Issues: Dishonesty: a local "reputable" outfit contracted with a landowner to cut cherry at 15" DBH and above, paid him for what was there, but waited 4 years to harvest. In that time a lot more grew above 15" than what they had paid for, and contract had no time limit. Landowner's fault, but still...
Crazy: Logger is cutting grade logs (I was supposed to clean up tops), landowner lives in town, but her son lives on the property. Neighbors complain to son about cutting on their property. Son confronts logger with a crowbar, fights, sherrif is called, enraged son attacks deputies and is shot dead. Logger calls me a week later and says "Now that the guy is in the ground, you can probably get tops. The funeral is today, but I'll talk to his mother tomorrow." That's crazy- I never did hear back from him.


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## cunrya (Jun 4, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy, the loggers aren't dishonest, but the timber buyers are shrewed. If you don't trust the guy I think you ought to look elsewhere. If your unsure of his terminoligy then ask. I understand you don't want to look like a greenhorn, but you'll look worse if you screw it up. I've heard that term before and he was refering to stump height (from Ohio too so...) I don't really think that is a standard term though so you ought to clarify with the logger.


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## Ohiowoodguy (Jun 4, 2008)

*Thanks*



cunrya said:


> Ohiowoodguy, the loggers aren't dishonest, but the timber buyers are shrewed. If you don't trust the guy I think you ought to look elsewhere. If your unsure of his terminoligy then ask. I understand you don't want to look like a greenhorn, but you'll look worse if you screw it up. I've heard that term before and he was refering to stump height (from Ohio too so...) I don't really think that is a standard term though so you ought to clarify with the logger.



Thanks, I know they're not all dishonest, just many I've met have done stuff I wouldn't. The wood in this deal is too good to pass up. I would hope that at 51 years, 31 years cutting, I'm not still a 'greenhorn'. I'll just go with my interpretation and pay the price if I'm wrong. The way he and his partner bandied "point of entry" about, I thought it was maybe an older term I'd never heard of (always more to learn).
Next time I ask a question here, I'll make sure the older posters know the answer first, so they don't get so :censored: frustrated.


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## 2dogs (Jun 4, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> No help. You're allowed to say "I don't know" and move on. You don't have to post insults. If you choose not to believe or understand my explainations and clarifications, there's not much more I can do.
> Issues: Dishonesty: a local "reputable" outfit contracted with a landowner to cut cherry at 15" DBH and above, paid him for what was there, but waited 4 years to harvest. In that time a lot more grew above 15" than what they had paid for, and contract had no time limit. Landowner's fault, but still...
> Crazy: Logger is cutting grade logs (I was supposed to clean up tops), landowner lives in town, but her son lives on the property. Neighbors complain to son about cutting on their property. Son confronts logger with a crowbar, fights, sherrif is called, enraged son attacks deputies and is shot dead. Logger calls me a week later and says "Now that the guy is in the ground, you can probably get tops. The funeral is today, but I'll talk to his mother tomorrow." That's crazy- I never did hear back from him.



What is your point?


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## Ohiowoodguy (Jun 4, 2008)

2dogs said:


> What is your point?



Actually 2 points: 1. Trying to extricate myself from the quagmire of paranoia shown here when plain English is misunderstood. And
2. Explaining the reasons for my "issues".


If you don't have an answer, why do you care?


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## Gologit (Jun 4, 2008)

*Sap ?*

Sap? Is that you, Sap?

I think I've got this figured out now. Ohiowoodguy isn't out of step...but all the rest of us are. I feel better knowing that everyone who tried to help this guy was as bad at it as I was. 

It must be neat to be the only smart guy in the room. As a retired teacher he should be used to dealing with people less informed than himself. I wonder what he taught. Probably not logic.

And no, I have no real idea what Point of Entry means...but I'll probably live through it.


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## 2dogs (Jun 5, 2008)

Bob I think it has to do with Steven King having John Lennon murdered. Only the black helicopter pilots truly know the real point of entry. Put on your foil hat and watch the skies.


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## Gologit (Jun 5, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Bob I think it has to do with Steven King having John Lennon murdered. Only the black helicopter pilots truly know the real point of entry. Put on your foil hat and watch the skies.



You're probably right. Why didn't I think of that? Wait a minute...I can't find my tin-foil hat...but I'll bet I know where I could borrow one. It'd be a long trip to Ohio to get it, though.


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## ropensaddle (Jun 5, 2008)

Ohiowoodguy said:


> Thanks, I know they're not all dishonest, just many I've met have done stuff I wouldn't. The wood in this deal is too good to pass up. I would hope that at 51 years, 31 years cutting, I'm not still a 'greenhorn'. I'll just go with my interpretation and pay the price if I'm wrong. The way he and his partner bandied "point of entry" about, I thought it was maybe an older term I'd never heard of (always more to learn).
> Next time I ask a question here, I'll make sure the older posters know the answer first, so they don't get so :censored: frustrated.



Here is some advise; you say the logger's were using that quote
while speaking with you and you did not understand wtf they meant.
We have not helped you either with are smart azzed comments
I would be very aware of those guy's and their point of entry references,
they may be thinking :censored:


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## redprospector (Jun 5, 2008)

Gologit said:


> Sap? Is that you, Sap?
> 
> I think I've got this figured out now. Ohiowoodguy isn't out of step...but all the rest of us are. I feel better knowing that everyone who tried to help this guy was as bad at it as I was.
> 
> ...



Well, I have tried hard to stay out of this, but I can no longer resist.
I have learned during my life that some people are beyond help. 

Ohiowoodguy's "logger" friend sounds like a guy that was around here for a short time. He was one of those "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, baffel em with BS" kinda guy's.

I don't know what "point of entry" is, nor do I care.........Unless someone I'm entering into a contract with start's throwing it around. Then I'll look them right in the eye, and ask; What the :censored: are you talking about?

Andy


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## Gumnuts (Jun 5, 2008)

Sheesh .......!/ farmer wants 15 acres cleared.
2/ Logger wants good logs 12'' D up .his first priority is for good logs .AN tops 12"> he'll be WANTING for blocking.
3/ Firewood seller ( you) can have whats left under 12".....
pecker poles an limbs

If you are working with him he'll let you know what lengths he wants.You''l get an idea of what head / tops an limbs are yours.

If you are coming in after him ,which is probably the case it too should be clear what he wants - not rocket science.He's got first dibs if any of the tops exceed 12" tops.You cut off excess under 12".

If your going in before him just be mindfull if your dropping em to leave all 
above 12"...lengths....even trim him a nice log ,every now an then.He sees your being mindfull of his stuff an he'll throw you some bones an make it easier for you.
You end up with limbs , sapling trees( pecker poles) under 12'' Same with tops.
You mentioned buttrussed stuff....eg,, ..take the 9".....

Police friend uses the term ' point of entry '
Rescue workers use the term ' point of entry '

Drop some and buck some small stuff that's under 12" and check with him that your cool to drop some bigger stuff - just be mindfull of not hanging them 
up or creating probs for him to fix.Buck and collect one tree at a time.

When in doubt ...as you appear to be......just take the no brainers to start with ....more will be revealed, obvious as you work into it.

ARE YOU JUST GETTING FREE WOOD TO PROCESS OR ARE YOU ENTERING A CONTRACT FOR PURCHASE OF WOOD OR CLEARANCE ????? 

Don't like seeing you get jumped on but suggest you leave the sarcasm out
for now ie,.' ARE'NT THERE ANY REAL LOGGERS HERE ? " CAUSE SOMETIMES YOU'LL CATCH ANY OR ALL OF US ON A BAD DAY.....TIRED, OVERWORKED AND
DOWNRIGHT ONERY.
POST A PIC OR 2 OF YOUR DISHONEST LOGGER OR YOURSELF( JOB SITE / TREES IN THE BACKGROUND) WITH A SMILE AND WE'LL BE EATIN OUT OF YOUR HAND.

- Graeme.


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## zayder06 (Jun 8, 2008)

Rational and reasonable answers not allowed.


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