# Mark trees, or let sawyers choose?



## old CB (Nov 24, 2016)

On a 1,180-acre county park/preserve (Betasso Preserve) across the fence from my home, a fire-mitigation-thinning operation in Ponderosa Pine woods is nearing completion. It’s a $1.3 million heli-logging show creating fuel breaks on three areas totaling 189 acres, through 50—80% fuel reduction. As you can imagine, certain neighbors have expressed doubts & concerns—the contract is managed by Boulder County, whose ways don’t always inspire confidence.

As my full-time gig is 95% fire mitigation for homeowners, I’ve been in favor of this thing. The thinned ground next door to me is now far less likely to bring fire to my place. (My main question was heli-logging?—why not skidders? We have sandy gravel for soil, ground that you can’t hurt with wheeled traffic. But I don’t manage county parks and open space.)

The block adjacent to my place was slated for 80% thinning, and a week or two before work started I finally saw tape (no paint) on trees. The specs were that nothing over 18” DBH would be removed, so county forestry techs put pink DO NOT CUT ribbons on several of the larger trees, and also pink-taped a few of what I call “character” trees—odd, misshapen, or whatever. But that seemed backwards to me. In my work—small-scale of course, compared to this project—everything I cut is marked with blue paint. When I studied forestry (as an amateur, in the 1970s), I seem to remember the saying: "You don’t choose trees with a saw in your hand." Foresters do the selection beforehand, not sawyers. So my question is: has this changed? Is it typical to let production sawyers drop trees and expect they’ll get the ratio right? These guys moved quickly—I never saw a sawyer study or survey the area. They dropped trees like they were getting paid by the piece.

Overall, I’ll be happy with the work. (Although when the saws cranked up next door I watched a sawyer casually cut the pink tape off my favorite “character tree” and fell it. I went up and fussed a little.) But I truly am curious. I know that marking with a paint can is an imperfect science ‘cause it can be hard to visualize the result. Is it common to allow sawyers to choose?


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## northmanlogging (Nov 24, 2016)

I rarely work with a forester, so I pretty much choose as I go. It don't take much to plot out a plan as you go, get the basics of what they wan't left, property lines are always nice and go.

Ribbon is a good way to loose trees you wan't to keep, as you mentioned ribbon cuts easy and is easily lost. paint on stem and stump not so much.

A selective cut by the logger is all depending on how trustworthy the logger is, and clear communication between logger, owner, and forester if there is one. Personally I'll bother the owner as I go, making damned sure I'm cutting what they want and nothing more. Foresters tag and leave for the most part, after a brief but in depth meeting, then check up on ya now and again.

As far as skidder ground vs heli ground, who knows... county management everywhere isn't led by the sharpest knives in the drawer, Sometimes they call for the harvest to be done in a certain way, such as xxx ground pressure, if that number is too low, then tracked machines can't even be used regardless of the soil types. The other factor being steepness or remoteness of the job, building 10 miles of road gets expensive so helicopter may have been the cheaper option.


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## slowp (Nov 24, 2016)

It sounds like the county selected Leave Trees and yes, that is common, but using paint is a good thing unless you are in a visually sensitive area where people don't want to see paint on trees. If the latter is the case, leave trees can still be painted, but on the side not facing the road. 

We've also had Designation By Description where the purchaser is responsible for the outcome and the cutters either choose while cutting (seldom done) or the logger flags or paints trees. Leave tree or cut tree marking can be determined by the amount of paint that would be used. In some cases, leave tree marking uses less paint which means less money spent on paint.

On helicopter logging--helicopter units are easier to get approval from environmental groups and potential protesters. It really doesn't make a lot of sense sometimes, the helicopter outfit will want to have large landings, but we do what we must to make forest management less controversial. Conventional logging may require roads to be built and road building is a big red flag to the enviros.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 24, 2016)

I never understood the bias against roads in the forests. You would think that access would mean more folks visiting said forest, and enjoying it more.

The enviro nuts seem to wan't people to just stay out... so they can play... and not have to deal with all this ... this public ew


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## bnmc98 (Nov 24, 2016)

Probably depends on the sale and who owns the land. So, from what I have learned having cut on fed sales. They pick everything for you. Major fines to cut the wrong trees. Most contracts are set up with designated species and size. Also, they will go so far as to make you go through brush piles and cut up the tops if they think they are too big and you could get a log out of them. They control even how much you will slash the saplings at the end of the sale. 
So, as a cutter, my philosophy has always first and foremost cut what makes money...
That being said, that is probably a similar philosophy to most loggers. I am under contract with those I work for, so they set the guidelines for me as well. We actually leave quite a few trees to make it look good for the land owners. Private land is also different than other areas as well. We log for ranchers and they want them gone for the most part.
As a cutter, I also need to know what makes a log and does not, so a sawyer would need to know what they are doing in all of the above situations in order to be allowed to select the trees themselves.
but as a rule, whose ever land and contract is established is king.


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## old CB (Nov 24, 2016)

Thanks, folks. Sounds like this method is not unusual. Marking 189 acres would mean a lot of paint and labor. And, yes, in this case painting keep trees would annoy the average Boulderite.

As I said, I think it's working out well overall. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.


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## Skeans (Nov 24, 2016)

Myself running a thinning operation with ground based stuff I hate when a forester comes and paints selective trees for leaves they don't usually understand how a turn has to come around or they think you can do a 90 degree turn. That said I've done both with paint and none at all being on Weyerhaeuser ground thinning nothing is marked so you pick as you cut a rough 180 trees per acre left is how most of us thin we have guidelines we work off of such leave the biggest best trees. Doing government ground we had to finally tell the forester no more marking they were making too much damage with their trail style such as width and corners didn't work for the equipment. 

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## old CB (Nov 24, 2016)

I took a walk today through the treatment area and was pleased. I’m sure there are people who think it’s been “butchered”—the term I heard applied to a location I worked this summer. Still a lot of slash littering the ground, but that will go away.

Fire will have to fight its way through the area now. That’s what I want next door.

CB


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## Skeans (Nov 24, 2016)

old CB said:


> I took a walk today through the treatment area and was pleased. I’m sure there are people who think it’s been “butchered”—the term I heard applied to a location I worked this summer. Still a lot of slash littering the ground, but that will go away.
> 
> Fire will have to fight its way through the area now. That’s what I want next door.
> 
> CB


I leave the slash on the ground as a mat for ground protection from the forwarder but that normally last one to tow passes.

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## slowp (Nov 24, 2016)

When you live in a fire prone area, you don't want to leave slash on the ground like we do on the wet side. 'ologists love to hear about leaving slash on the ground (in this area) and skidding over it. I didn't tell them that the slash gets pushed off after a couple of passes. 

More on helicopters--more trees might be cut because you have to make a sale pay off and helicopters are spendy.


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## old CB (Nov 24, 2016)

When I say the slash will go away, I mean I expect a crew will remove most of it. Such stuff lasts for decades around here, especially on south-facing ground--we have no moisture to rot the stuff. The lop-and-scatter method of slash disposal--it doesn't work here, as you're just carpeting the ground with fuel. But I like to see bits of stuff on the ground, since too-clean ground will wash clean when we get a flood--and we get floods.

At 6-8,000' elevation on the side of a mountain you might not think about a flood . . . till a weather system stalls overhead and waaaay too much rain falls in a few hours. Then watch the ground slide away in ways you wouldn't expect.

In Sept. 2013 we got 15" rain in 5 days--pretty much a year's average rainfall. As a volunteer firefighter I went down our road midweek around midnight, responding to a call about trees that washed off a hill taking out the power line and closing the road. The creek was raging, all the culverts were plugged with debris, and 5-6" creek water and small rock was washing down the blacktop. Spooked the hell out of me, as I've seen blacktop carved away by a storm. (Seems to me you get similar issues in Warshington, Patty.)

I did not hear the actual radio traffic but I got it on good authority that one department radioed another: "Be aware, there's a house coming down the road in your direction."

We do what we must to make a home where nature doesn't give a rat's ass whether we're here or not.


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## madhatte (Nov 25, 2016)

Depends. First-entry thins are a good opportunity to slack off and let the loggers thin to a basal area or to a spacing. After that, it's a gamble and I'd really rather have a crew mark ahead of the fallers. I've done both to good results but the pucker factor upstairs is much easier to deal with when there's paint on trees, especially when they're worth more than a couple hundred bucks apiece.


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## Skeans (Nov 25, 2016)

madhatte said:


> Depends. First-entry thins are a good opportunity to slack off and let the loggers thin to a basal area or to a spacing. After that, it's a gamble and I'd really rather have a crew mark ahead of the fallers. I've done both to good results but the pucker factor upstairs is much easier to deal with when there's paint on trees, especially when they're worth more than a couple hundred bucks apiece.


I know I sound backwards from most but I was always taught no matter what you leave the quality wood and only cut a quality tree if there's no choice for a trail. I've seen jobs that are garbage from the contractor also seen garbage from the marking job because they forget about the yarding end of the job. Tree length I'll cut a high stump or leave a rub tree that will be removed once a trail is done. 

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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 25, 2016)

Skeans said:


> Myself running a thinning operation with ground based stuff I hate when a forester comes and paints selective trees for leaves they don't usually understand how a turn has to come around or they think you can do a 90 degree turn. That said I've done both with paint and none at all being on Weyerhaeuser ground thinning nothing is marked so you pick as you cut a rough 180 trees per acre left is how most of us thin we have guidelines we work off of such leave the biggest best trees. Doing government ground we had to finally tell the forester no more marking they were making too much damage with their trail style such as width and corners didn't work for the equipment.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



On most land I log I'd be happy to get 180 trees an acre!


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## old CB (Nov 25, 2016)

I should mention that they're not harvesting logs to be milled, despite calling it a heli-logging operation. Most of our Pondos are smaller than what you're accustomed to seeing in the PNW. Maybe only 5% or so of this stand is 18" DBH, and the average is probably 8-12." These trees are lifted in their entirety, dropped at the landing, and fed into a giant county-owned Morbark chipper. The chips are hauled in semi-trailers for bio-mass use--they heat the county jail (and I think another facility maybe). I did see one load of logs--so I guess maybe several?--go down the road. So maybe some product is going to an area mill (we only have two small mill operations nearby). I heard that the labor to reduce the trees to logs adds too much cost, and the demand for logs is probably not great (go figure).

No, this is strictly a fire-mitigation thin. No thought to future harvest, since it's a preserve.

Forest health is an additional consideration. With our fire-suppression efforts, tree density is too great, which favors the bark beetle and compromises stand health in general. One goal around here is to get stand density down to where occasional prescribed burns can maintain the large areas of county open space. Which gets us closer to nature's design--a good thing.


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## slowp (Nov 25, 2016)

Skeans said:


> I know I sound backwards from most but I was always taught no matter what you leave the quality wood and only cut a quality tree if there's no choice for a trail. I've seen jobs that are garbage from the contractor also seen garbage from the marking job because they forget about the yarding end of the job. Tree length I'll cut a high stump or leave a rub tree that will be removed once a trail is done.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



The National Forest around here is pretty much managed by an enviro group. They are set on only using basal area thinnings. That means it is fairly easy to decide which trees are cut as the only determination for a leave tree is the diameter at the stump and if it is alive. No need to look up, except to make sure the tree is alive. Pick the biggest diameter at stump height live tree, and cut ever other tree around it for a determined distance. This keeps the birds and the enviros happy, I guess. It does make for a more diverse stand because multi-topped trees, broken topped trees and deformed trees are left along with healthy trees.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 25, 2016)

old CB said:


> I should mention that they're not harvesting logs to be milled, despite calling it a heli-logging operation. Most of our Pondos are smaller than what you're accustomed to seeing in the PNW. Maybe only 5% or so of this stand is 18" DBH, and the average is probably 8-12." These trees are lifted in their entirety, dropped at the landing, and fed into a giant county-owned Morbark chipper. The chips are hauled in semi-trailers for bio-mass use--they heat the county jail (and I think another facility maybe). I did see one load of logs--so I guess maybe several?--go down the road. So maybe some product is going to an area mill (we only have two small mill operations nearby). I heard that the labor to reduce the trees to logs adds too much cost, and the demand for logs is probably not great (go figure).
> 
> No, this is strictly a fire-mitigation thin. No thought to future harvest, since it's a preserve.
> 
> Forest health is an additional consideration. With our fire-suppression efforts, tree density is too great, which favors the bark beetle and compromises stand health in general. One goal around here is to get stand density down to where occasional prescribed burns can maintain the large areas of county open space. Which gets us closer to nature's design--a good thing.



There is some logs in there, mills out here can take down to 5" dia on the small end. 

Problem is that the pine beetle has killed off so much pine and folks are trying to salvage as much as possible that the pine market is saturated, therefore the mills don't have to pay anything to get logs, and they can be as picky as they like. Simple supply and demand.

Bio fuel is about the only thing its going to be good for.

This here is exactly what happens when a forest is mismanaged.


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## Skeans (Nov 25, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> There is some logs in there, mills out here can take down to 5" dia on the small end.
> 
> Problem is that the pine beetle has killed off so much pine and folks are trying to salvage as much as possible that the pine market is saturated, therefore the mills don't have to pay anything to get logs, and they can be as picky as they like. Simple supply and demand.
> 
> ...


Great example of the government timber management, look at the thinning they had me do and you'd be sick to your stomach as well as tear out roads.

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## old CB (Nov 25, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> There is some logs in there, mills out here can take down to 5" dia on the small end.


I know too well that good logs are getting shredded, plenty of 'em. I was skidder operator for a logger (upstate NY, hardwoods) back in 1973.

When I first moved here I couldn't stand to buck up a pretty log--seemed like a crime against nature. But try to give away a good log or even 3 or 4. Even if a builder wants to mill a beam or two, loading and transporting are troublesome--no real logging takes place hereabout. I've given away a few, but it's rare that anyone wants them. A shame really.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 25, 2016)

Moved out here from WY, we didn't know **** about local timber, and here was all this hardwood they left 3-4' diameter stuff, dozens of logs.

And nobody was cutting it!

Well... it was cottonwood, and its different here than it is in the high plains, squishy, stinky, and soft... 14 cords later... house smelled like dog poo for 2 years, only way it would burn is with the vent wide open so that eventually cooked the stove...

Couple years ago i was scouting a dnr firewood "sale" there was a guy with a brand new poulan wild thang, a van with a utility trailer bragging about how the loggers left all this maple... I just smiled nodded and drove on...


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## old CB (Nov 25, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Moved out here from WY, we didn't know **** about local timber, and here was all this hardwood they left 3-4' diameter stuff, dozens of logs.
> 
> And nobody was cutting it!
> 
> ...


Them damn loggers don't know squat. Lucky that a smart guy like that showed up with his toy saw to make use of that maple.


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## madhatte (Nov 25, 2016)

Skeans said:


> I know I sound backwards from most but I was always taught no matter what you leave the quality wood and only cut a quality tree if there's no choice for a trail. I've seen jobs that are garbage from the contractor also seen garbage from the marking job because they forget about the yarding end of the job. Tree length I'll cut a high stump or leave a rub tree that will be removed once a trail is done.



And much appreciated, too. Rub trees are a good practice. Note that on our sales, some of the "garbage" that is marked is done not for the log but for the shadow that will lift up off of the ground when it's gone. We try to take a bit of everything and focus on the light we can get to the forest floor for the residual stand. Of course, our strategy would be totally different if we were expected to turn a profit.


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## bnmc98 (Nov 26, 2016)

slowp said:


> The National Forest around here is pretty much managed by an enviro group. They are set on only using basal area thinnings. That means it is fairly easy to decide which trees are cut as the only determination for a leave tree is the diameter at the stump and if it is alive. No need to look up, except to make sure the tree is alive. Pick the biggest diameter at stump height live tree, and cut ever other tree around it for a determined distance. This keeps the birds and the enviros happy, I guess. It does make for a more diverse stand because multi-topped trees, broken topped trees and deformed trees are left along with healthy trees.



Thats funny, around here they they seem to look up and make sure they keep all the straight ones too and give the crooked junk to be harvested. No wonder they don't have bids on some sales.
I've walked through several sales here to look it over and no way would I ever bid on them... no pulp market here.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 26, 2016)

Without having read said thread, I'd be cutting something, even if was a low grade thinning of the stems that don't appear to be thriving or have any reason to live. Leave the good stuff on the stump and dont sell those ripe pumpkins until you find the best market. Twere my bush, I'd enjoy every tree while it was still standing. You can always cut them down, but you can't stand them back up again. If we want good carrots, we need to weed our garden.
A rich person is one who is gaurdian over our trees.Trees represent a whole lot more than just a bunch of ripe bananas.


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2016)

bnmc98 said:


> Thats funny, around here they they seem to look up and make sure they keep all the straight ones too and give the crooked junk to be harvested. No wonder they don't have bids on some sales.
> I've walked through several sales here to look it over and no way would I ever bid on them... no pulp market here.


 
Sounds like your enviro group needs to talk to our enviro group. The bad thing is, they only want to use this method. Its a one size fits all for them but does not address problems like rootrot patches that have trees falling on roads, or making openings for wildlife, berries, or views.


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## madhatte (Nov 26, 2016)

See, that's why we do it the way we do it -- we can address those things as part of our normal process without having to pretend that it's new or exceptional.


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## RandyMac (Nov 26, 2016)

I've done it both ways, I believe I can open a stand better than someone who breezes through spraying paint.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 26, 2016)

Went up on the annual family scare the wifes trip today...

Passed through several FS thinnings, some looked good, some not so much.

2 were done with yarders 1 everything looked nearly natural unless you know what your looking for, the other, a half blind school marm could tell were the yarder was set up, big huge cable paths, lots of junk just over the edge of the road... not horrible but not the best either.

The first one on the way up was mostly flat, who ever did it managed to scar up most of the trees along the main road, and probably half of the leave trees are critically damaged.


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2016)

northmanlogging said:


> Went up on the annual family scare the wifes trip today...
> 
> Passed through several FS thinnings, some looked good, some not so much.
> 
> ...



Wonder why the SA let them get away with that?


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## Skeans (Nov 27, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Wonder why the SA let them get away with that?


Wonder if it's like that government job we did for a few years where damage was acceptable and to an extent promoted?

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## slowp (Nov 27, 2016)

Gologit said:


> Wonder why the SA let them get away with that?



Maybe the SA did not use bribery cookies?


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## northmanlogging (Nov 27, 2016)

No idear, the damaged stuff is at a pretty low elevation only like 1-2 miles in, used to have epic paint ball wars in there... the yarder units are a bit farther up but not much, been a couple years since they did them, though the slash poles are still pretty obvious, most folks that go up there get it... but its not leaving the best image in folks minds


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