# Some big timber and the reality of falling



## forestryworks (Mar 24, 2012)

Some may have seen this video. And some may already know what the article speaks of, but for any newbies lurking around that want to fall timber...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vFbdAQc3hv0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A fading generation: Number of loggers in Northwest has plunged


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## Jacob J. (Mar 24, 2012)

That article(s) is kind of older but does represent a lot of the modern reality. The booming export market of the 
last couple of years has gotten some younger guys in the woods but not as many as twenty years ago. 
A lot of young people simply don't want to make the sacrifice of living the lifestyle that comes with working in
the woods and the potential health risks. I'm not having any problem though finding young people that want 
to work in wildland fire. I had over 600 applicants last year for three jobs. Nice video.


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## OregonSawyer (Mar 24, 2012)

I was just in Sweet Home today. Checking out a couple timber sales... Jameson, you got a lot of West Coast in ya for never having been out here. One of these days you'll have to make a trip. I feel like you'd be in awe of timber that so many take for granted. How's that school treating you anyway? Done yet?


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## paccity (Mar 24, 2012)

rice has been working just west of us for a wile now.


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## forestryworks (Mar 24, 2012)

OregonSawyer said:


> How's that school treating you anyway? Done yet?



Going alright. Graduate in December Got the summer off and hunting furiously for work. No falling work luck yet. Sure am itching to cut!!



paccity said:


> rice has been working just west of us for a wile now.



He'd be a hell of a guy to work with and learn from!


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## Jacob J. (Mar 24, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Going alright. Graduate in December Got the summer off and hunting furiously for work. No falling work luck yet. Sure am itching to cut!!



Have you gotten some time in yet on a high lead show?


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## forestryworks (Mar 24, 2012)

No, I've only cut for cable and grapple skidders.


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## RandyMac (Mar 24, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> Have you gotten some time in yet on a high lead show?



LoL, the lad is a flatlander.


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## Gologit (Mar 24, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> That article(s) is kind of older but does represent a lot of the modern reality. The booming export market of the
> last couple of years has gotten some younger guys in the woods but not as many as twenty years ago.
> A lot of young people simply don't want to make the sacrifice of living the lifestyle that comes with working in
> the woods and the potential health risks. I'm not having any problem though finding young people that want
> to work in wildland fire. I had over 600 applicants last year for three jobs. Nice video.



Well said.


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## Gologit (Mar 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> LoL, the lad is a flatlander.



He is _now._ That will change.


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## paccity (Mar 24, 2012)

Gologit said:


> He is _now._ That will change.


yup, but he's got to be hungry for it.


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## Gologit (Mar 24, 2012)

paccity said:


> yup, but he's got to be hungry for it.



True.


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## DavdH (Mar 24, 2012)

*Trade*...I'd love to cut for a skidder. Heli is going to start flying units soon. I don't know how much $ it is but I'm sure the logging is costing way more than the logs are worth on the open domestic market,


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## madhatte (Mar 24, 2012)

My sources tell me that China is finally getting its fill of our cheap exports (damn, that's a weird thing to say) and will soon be buying only 2-saw or better. The market will get weird after that, you can be sure. I'm guessing that they're gutting Siberia instead, as it's closer, cheaper, and more corrupt. Back here, in the absence of a strong demand for building materials, you'll likely see timber prices crash, but not likely to 2009 lows. I'm thinking it'll settle out to something like early 2011, when my notes show our timber going for about $450/Mbf, with our 20% FSC premium. That means elsewhere in the region should expect somewhere on the order of $380/Mbf. That's a bit lower than current prices, but way higher than just a couple of years ago when we bottomed out just above $200/Mbf. My hope is that with the rush to export raw materials to Asia waning, the domestic market will stabilize some, and we can find some semblance of equilibrium between cutting and growing.


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## carym2a (Mar 24, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> LoL, the lad is a flatlander.



Nothen like workin in the hole , he'll love it

Cary


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## Greenwedge (Mar 24, 2012)

*Cutting for skidders vrs. Strip sawing for line machines or helicopters*

This post is in regard to the good natured teasing that forestryworks has been getting for being a flatlander. I was broke in cutting by my father for Columbia Helicopters. Pretty much all of my time as a cutter has been doing time for line machines and helicopters, and sporadically some shovel ground and for the most part it was all to be 100% bucked. The rules were simple, keep your wood on the hill and fall it where you can buck it. Made it from 1992 to 2010 without falling one stick for a skidder of cat. When I came back to the home country to work I had hell with falling for the skidders. Falling a tree against it's lean just seemed so wrong...needless to say some operators had words with me in the beginning.....then there was the whole cutting tree lengths in the right of ways...never have I heard of this, and then they tell me that all the butts have to face the machine.......after a while I got the hang of it, but never really cared for falling on the flats, and would choose any day of the week to break over the hill for the tower rather than run the axe for the skidder....wedging just don't come natural to me!! In conclusion, the men that fall for these wheeled and tracked monstrosities have my utmost respect. Don't sweat the slopes Jameson, in my humble opinion it's by far better duty.


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## slowp (Mar 24, 2012)

Just try not to cut the lift or tail trees. That's not a good thing to do......:coffee:


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## carym2a (Mar 25, 2012)

and over a log and under a cable..

Cary


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## Samlock (Mar 25, 2012)

madhatte said:


> My sources tell me that China is finally getting its fill of our cheap exports (damn, that's a weird thing to say) and will soon be buying only 2-saw or better. The market will get weird after that, you can be sure. I'm guessing that they're gutting Siberia instead, as it's closer, cheaper, and more corrupt. Back here, in the absence of a strong demand for building materials, you'll likely see timber prices crash, but not likely to 2009 lows. I'm thinking it'll settle out to something like early 2011, when my notes show our timber going for about $450/Mbf, with our 20% FSC premium. That means elsewhere in the region should expect somewhere on the order of $380/Mbf. That's a bit lower than current prices, but way higher than just a couple of years ago when we bottomed out just above $200/Mbf. My hope is that with the rush to export raw materials to Asia waning, the domestic market will stabilize some, and we can find some semblance of equilibrium between cutting and growing.



They're expecting Russia finally to sign up WTO ratification this year. Currently Russians are charging €50 customs duty for each exported cubic meter of round wood. If/when they'll join the WTO, they'll not be able charge that much anymore.

Russians dislike the idea of the Siberian timber floating to China. All the timberland is owned by the Federation, but as you remarked, aside of the customs duties, they'll not have any chance to hold their timber crossing the borders.

Funny thing is, Chinese will get all the FSC certificated timber they need from Russia. I've asked a couple of Russian forestry professionals, how come virtually everything they produce is FSC certed, since the standards are pretty hard to meet even for the Finns. Well, they'd laugh and say 'Money can buy you things'.


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## Greenwedge (Mar 25, 2012)

Funny how that works huh?


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## Gologit (Mar 25, 2012)

Greenwedge said:


> Funny how that works huh?



Yup. I'll start laughing any minute now. Or, then again, maybe not.


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## madhatte (Mar 25, 2012)

Samlock said:


> I've asked a couple of Russian forestry professionals, how come virtually everything they produce is FSC certed, since the standards are pretty hard to meet even for the Finns. Well, they'd laugh and say 'Money can buy you things'.



Geeze, that's ugly. Almost wonder why we even bother.


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## Samlock (Mar 25, 2012)

madhatte said:


> Geeze, that's ugly. Almost wonder why we even bother.



Corruption. Kinda demoralizing, isn't it?


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## forestryworks (Mar 25, 2012)

Samlock said:


> I've asked a couple of Russian forestry professionals, how come virtually everything they produce is FSC certed, since the standards are pretty hard to meet even for the Finns. Well, they'd laugh and say 'Money can buy you things'.



That oughta give the hippies here a fit big enough to cause some ripples in Russian timber sales.

Or not.


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## RandyMac (Mar 25, 2012)

Hippies would just disappear in Russia.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 25, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> That oughta give the hippies here a fit big enough to cause some ripples in Russian timber sales.
> 
> Or not.



Not. They don't have any concern with what goes on in Russia. In fact for most, they don't really even have much real concern for 
what goes on here. They have a friend or relative organizing some protest and they get involved because it's a social thing. 

I've talked to a few protesters on timber sales. It's amazing how clueless they are on natural resource issues and what actually goes 
on in the woods.


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## forestryworks (Mar 25, 2012)

Jacob J. said:


> I've talked to a few protesters on timber sales. It's amazing how clueless they are on natural resource issues and what actually goes on in the woods.



All the more reason for the equal access to the courts thing to have some limitations in place.


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## Samlock (Mar 25, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Hippies would just disappear in Russia.



No kidding. Any hippie protest activity outside the big cities, that's just a bizarre idea in that country. They wouldn't get even near the logging grounds. Plus there's a certain reason why the Russian criminals have absolutely no respect over the western police forces and jails. 

The lesson we have learned living 1000 years next to that country is: You can't change Russia. You just have to figure out how to take advantage of it.


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## coastalfaller (Mar 25, 2012)

I looked into going over to Russia a couple years ago, was way too much corruption then, and guys packing uzi's who looked over the booms! 

From what I've heard, and this is just hearsay, so take it for what it's worth, but apparently being that the border is so huge and the Russian Far East such a vast area, the Chinese would just cross the border and start logging! Where ever and how much they wanted! Again, just what I've heard.

Also heard that a major transportation challenge is that the Russians and Chinese use different guage on their railways. Meaning that at the border, the logs would have to be unloaded, trucked across then reloaded. Seems a bit far fetched, but then who knows!


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## Sport Faller (Mar 25, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> LoL, the lad is a flatlander.



Don't worry, he'll be up here for the GTG in June and he'll prolly just stay


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## forestryworks (Mar 25, 2012)

bigskyjake said:


> Don't worry, he'll be up here for the GTG in June and he'll prolly just stay



Man I'd sure like to, but with the way my luck in job hunting and my money situation is going, I'll more than likely end up taking the first job I get offered.

Looking like CO for the summer.


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## Samlock (Mar 26, 2012)

coastalfaller said:


> Also heard that a major transportation challenge is that the Russians and Chinese use different guage on their railways. Meaning that at the border, the logs would have to be unloaded, trucked across then reloaded. Seems a bit far fetched, but then who knows!



Back in the early 90's Trans-Sib from Moscow to Beijing, at the Mongolian-Chinese border they drove the train through an assembly hall, jacked up cars and swapped bogies to fit the narrow gauge. And vice versa. I haven't taken that trip ever since, but I guess they do the routine today as well.


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## OlympicYJ (Mar 26, 2012)

Samlock said:


> Funny thing is, Chinese will get all the FSC certificated timber they need from Russia. I've asked a couple of Russian forestry professionals, how come virtually everything they produce is FSC certed, since the standards are pretty hard to meet even for the Finns. Well, they'd laugh and say 'Money can buy you things'.



And another reason to add to my list of why I hat FSC.


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## madhatte (Mar 28, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> And another reason to add to my list of why I hat FSC.



I see FSC as a good thing -- as long as we are FSC-certified, we are allowed to be self-policing, and are COMPLETELY free of state and federal oversight regarding forest practices, inasmuch as the certification states that we have already exceeded all requirements of those levels of government. Of course, this requires that both the certifying body and the landowner be honest; all I can say to that is "so far, so good". It would be easy to abuse FSC certification in a place like SE Russia, where law is as loose as some of my more ribald similes.


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## Jacob J. (Mar 28, 2012)

forestryworks said:


> Man I'd sure like to, but with the way my luck in job hunting and my money situation is going, I'll more than likely end up taking the first job I get offered.
> 
> Looking like CO for the summer.



Is it going to be something decent?


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## tramp bushler (Mar 31, 2012)

, Thats the problem with computers . The brain learns but the body don't . Jameson needs t shut his puter off and go get a job hideing babbet on a tower . Then he'll be in the right place to get on buckin for some outfit . Then single jackin . Once you learn how to fall + buck west coast timber on steep ground , do a good job with your timber and stay alive+ healthy . It's easy to learn how to cut anywhere . . . . He's not quite hungry enough yet . But I think he's gainin on er.


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## OlympicYJ (Apr 1, 2012)

madhatte said:


> I see FSC as a good thing -- as long as we are FSC-certified, we are allowed to be self-policing, and are COMPLETELY free of state and federal oversight regarding forest practices, inasmuch as the certification states that we have already exceeded all requirements of those levels of government. Of course, this requires that both the certifying body and the landowner be honest; all I can say to that is "so far, so good". It would be easy to abuse FSC certification in a place like SE Russia, where law is as loose as some of my more ribald similes.[/QUOTE
> 
> I know that FSC is even more stringent than the Washington Forest and Fish Rules but I believe they would still fall under the WADNR oversight though. As far as review by the Forest Practices Forester is concerned. I mean they wouldn't not review them I don't think.


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