# Sharpening



## Sandhill Crane (Jul 2, 2017)

I hand sharpen with a Stihl three in one file.
The second photo shows a spectral reflection from the corner tip inward. I think it is from the file dropping off and not being level.


The first photo is a dull, unsharpened cutter.


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## Dolphus Raymond (Jul 2, 2017)

That looks odd for sure. I've never used the Stihl file but I like the concept of sharpening the teeth and taking down the rakers at the same time.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 2, 2017)

I really like the file system, but it is a dedicated system. 
This chain is 3/8ths, for .325 you would have to buy another dedicated file set.
The files are replaceable, but not interchangeable in size.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 3, 2017)

The cutters do not look like the best to me. I always file the rakers as the cutters wear down. My chains are always hand filed. You need to file farther down towards the drive links about a 32'' or two. I have seen much worst though. The set up you have is not very sharp, but it might work OK for hard wood in that the cutters are a bit blunt. With some practice you will be flying through your logs. Thanks


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 3, 2017)

Took Teds lead and used a backer board so the photos are a little better.
At first I thought my phone distorted the left hand cutter hook, but turning the saw around I now see in the photos that most of the left hand cutters have very little hook compared to the right hand cutters.
I think it is from the file being unlevel and too high coming out of the cutter when I do the left side of the chain.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 3, 2017)

I am a free hand person my self. Aim for the face of the cutter to be more concave and farther down. Yes you do need to lift up a bit to get the top part of the cutter sharp, but after the shape has been established. You will start to be impressed when the chips are just flying and the saw does most of the work without pressure. Thanks


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## CaseyForrest (Jul 3, 2017)

I use the same guide the majority of the time. After probably 5-7 sharpenings I'll throw the chains on the grinder to even everything back out. I can get chains sharper with the file but the angles start to become inconsistent as does cutter length. The grinder evens everything back up. 


Sent from a field


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## CaseyForrest (Jul 3, 2017)

Crane, how old are the files and do you rotate them in the guide between sharpenings?


Sent from a field


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 3, 2017)

New files a month ago, and I've cut very little.
I do rotate but after a while kind of loose track of what side is what.
Use them and change them out once a month or so, and throw them away.

Just cut some dirty logs from the bottom of the pile.
Back to the bench vise.

I did read a little on line about sharpening. 
I was looking for angle terminology and of course some numbers. 
Stihl said 1/4 of file above top of cutter, another, I think Pferd, said 1/5 above. 

But what I was going to say is, one said tighten the chain before sharpening and re-adjust it after wards. 
I usually adjust it before sharpening, but not tight.


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## cantoo (Jul 3, 2017)

Crane, might want to look into your oil type or usage too. The bottom of your chain sure looks really worn compared to the size of the cutters. Mine get pretty worn too so I've taken to giving them and extra shot of spray can lube between fill ups.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 3, 2017)

Yeah, I noticed the center of the link appears worn. 
From the nose of the bar?
I saw a video on YouTube of a chain that is too loose. It whips around the drive sprocket, rises, and crashes into the bar, and takes a little hop back off the bar, then down. 
Since seeing that, I run my chain a bit tighter than I use to.

I am still confused about that actually.
Does a chain contract, or expand when running and up to operating temp?
Worse case, I'd rather be too loose than too tight.

I used Jonsered bar oil(spelling?).
Just got five gallons of Country Line or something from TSC. It was $2.00/gal. cheaper.
The oiler is pushing it out, whether it is doing its job is another thing.

The bar is new this spring, and only 4 1/4 tanks of fuel since the new carb, maybe 4 1/4 before that, with that new carb. I'm guessing 1/2 to 3/4 cord per tank. 
Saw really has not seen much use due to issues.
The chain shows wear, the bar not so much.
Maybe I need to look at the drive sprocket for wear.

New dedicated fuel can and Recreation fuel this past week since getting the new carb tweaked.
A 1 1/2 tanks through it.
Runs great...except for one hard start today.


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## CaseyForrest (Jul 4, 2017)

After sleeping on it... I think you are inadvertently putting to much side angle on the left cutters compared to the right. The jig wont let you alter the height of the file in the cutter unless you really try, so the only 2 angles you can "modify" is the 30° top plate and the 10° up (if you choose) to help define the hook. I think you are putting more angle on the left cutters essentially not letting the file get into the gullet.

A 'top down' shot may show this...


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 4, 2017)

Yesterday I noticed the hook can be increased or decreased by deviating from level across the top.
You can modify up/down.
Raising the file on exit decreases hook, and increases the 60* plus/minus cutter angle 
Lowering on exit stroke increases hook, and decreases cutter angle.
Or so it seems to me. (using the 3/1 file system)
I noticed I could look down at the file handle and site the inner edge of the handle for up/down/level, before beginning the stroke. -----)
If the chain tips away a bit when pushing the file it would be the same as raising the exit stroke, giving less hook.
Im going to try tightening the chain before sharpening as suggested.

Angle consistency: I use a full file stroke, remove the file, and repeat. Using the full stroke keeps the file from dulling in one spot sooner than another, gives consistency per tooth using the same stroke length, and bottoming the handle against the bar is a sure indicator of being on or off. Often the first stroke is a touch off, correct on second, repeat on third. Kind of why I do three strokes. (again, this is with the 3/1 which has a wide handle with the 30* angle at both ends, a guide if you will.)

Pressure consistency is a huge factor.
I do not have that down either.
There is a definite difference, one side to the other. 
I'm going to rotate the bench vise today so it is 90* to the bench and not parallel. 
That way I can switch sides and not turn the saw around, same height, and such.

One guy I know does an extra stroke on one side to compensate and calls it good.

Checked the drive sprocket and definitely needs replacing.
YouTubed how to get the outboard clutch off the 357xp.
Really......put rope in the cylinder...............................


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## Ryan'smilling (Jul 4, 2017)

@Sandhill Crane, one thing that helps me with filing a chain when it's on the saw is to tighten your chain pretty tight, but so you can still rotate it, then rotate your chain to where you want, and then stick your scrench in between the chain and the bar on the underside of the bar. That really tightens up the chain so it doesn't move around. Then when you want to advance the chain, just pull it out. Learned that from the square filing guys.


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## jwade (Jul 4, 2017)

it looks as though the gullets on your chains could ose a good touch ip also. it will really make a difference how the chips are ejected during cutting. hope this helps.


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## cantoo (Jul 4, 2017)

Sandhill, I usually use the oil from TSC but after wearing out a cheap bar last year in a few hours cutting I switched to some heavy Poulan oil that I had on hand. I just bought 2 jugs off the stickiest oil that Lazer makes. My stihl dealer says he thinks it is better than stihl oil. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet though. And I make sure that I ordered the better bars this time around. I also replace my drive sprockets more often.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 4, 2017)

I ran some Lazer chain two summers ago and loved it.
I've never seen their bar oil anywhere. 
Got the chain from a mom and pop shop that has since closed.

I do need to get a drive sprocket.
Not a fan of the outboard clutch on this XP. 
We have a rental place about ten miles away that sell/services Husqvarna, just haven't tried them since they picked up the franchise.
They should have parts...

82* today. A couple hard starts, like six pulls, so not so bad.
I dressed the bar today, and did a half cord.
Beautiful day...


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## rarefish383 (Jul 5, 2017)

On oil. I have bars that are 40+ years old that saw 20+ years of commercial service, then me cutting firewood and milling with them for another 20 years. Most of our saws, in the 70's had automatic oilers, but they all had thumb pumps too. Dad would give anyone heck if they weren't constantly pumping. Always use a full tank of oil per tank of fuel. Back then I never heard of "Bar Oil". We just used the cheapest 10W30 oil we could get, by the case, at KMart. I still use 10W30 unless I catch a good sale. To put in perspective how much my saws still get used, I mix in 5 gallon batches, and use about 5 gallons a month. By the 80's we bought enough saws, pretty much all Homelites, that other dealers started sending us flyers on their products. Then I remember reading one manufacturers theory on using thick oil that would cling to the bar and lubricate longer, and an others claim that thin oil was better because it flew off the end of the bar, carrying heat off the the bar keeping it cooler. Both theories had a pile of scientific research to prove their side. We kept using 10W30, and now I have 40 year old bars, still in service. I adjust the chain so you can pick it up with 2 fingers, and the drivers come to the top of the bar groove, but not sagging off the bottom. I would rather run it a little loose than tight.

On filing, I still free hand with a chunk of an Oak stick stuck on the file for a handle. I rotate the file after every stroke, and every third or fourth stroke I tap the file across the chain to clean out the filings. I think the files last longer that way. A sharp chain will create less heat and aid in longer bar life. When you have to start leaning on the saw to cut you are creating a lot of heat. I can buck up an Oak log and hold the bar in bare hands when done. If the bar is so hot you can't touch it, you are not using enough oil, your chain is dull, or too tight. That bar won't last long. 

Sharp chain, lots of oil, long bar life, Joe.


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## rarefish383 (Jul 5, 2017)

Sandhill, I notice on one of the pics, one set of rakers was way lower than the other, and both rakers were very flat. When I used to file just for bucking, I kind of did the same thing. When I got into milling I found how much difference it made to keep the raker rounded, more like the profile of a new chain. I don't like my rakers quite that low, unless I'm into soft woods. But, since I'm retired, I only cut Oak for my personal fire wood use, so I try to keep the profile close to factory, Joe.


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## anlrolfe (Jul 5, 2017)

Look at the rakers...
If you're using the combination file and hitting the rakers and teeth simultaneously the rakers will tell you if the angle is off.
If you're holding true the rakers will be perfectly squared off.
Is it me or are the rakers down to nubs ???


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 5, 2017)

I also file freehand.

I have found that my body position when doing each side leads to me inadvertently getting more pressure on the file when filing the left side teeth. So I compensate by making a couple extra strokes on the right side. Otherwise the left side will get filed down further than the right, over the life of the chain. Also by the last 1/3 or so of chain life I am also starting to file into the top of the links just a little.

Could be perspective or something, but those rakers in the pic against the white background look like they are filed too low, and the teeth not low enough (not enough hook?). But that might be me.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 5, 2017)

The photos are not ideal, just a phone camera, and difficulty focusing on such a small part of the overall photo.
Some of the rakers do look low. They should all be the same, varying only if tooth length is different, and allows one to drop.
In the previous photos there is definitely a difference between left and right cutter profile after sharpening.

New day.
Ryan'smiling, good tip. I tried it this morning.
Rarefish383, thanks. I cut on a bench, and plastic wedge almost every piece to keep from binding and finish the cuts. I use Tap Magic cutting fluid when filing. It shows in the photos as bits black grunge.
This mornings sharpening and wife's camera (which I have no clue how to use, different modes and all). So just two basic shots on a tripod, same teeth, both sides.

I purposely lowered the outfeed end of the file, and held pressure consistently toward the 28* side of 30*
Also felt tipped the rakers and used a .025 gauge and flat file. Did not touch any of them, but they are consistent, and a stroke or two lower than the gauge.


Crap...technical error:
Photos are on desktop but will not load. Kicks out at last moment.
My helper/mentor/better half... is in the flower garden.

Edit: got it... 
Top photo left side cutters do not appear 60* yet.
However, lower photo they are parallel to the right hand cutters if you go by the bar. I put sticky notes on the computer screen to emphasis the angles.


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## Philbert (Jul 5, 2017)

File guides can help to maintain desired file heights and angles, and help most people obtain more uniform, consistent, cutters. But there is still technique and skill involved.

The amount of pressure applied on R and L cutters, as mentioned, is one example. Maintaining a smooth stroke, is another.

Thank about shooting pool; if the user's stick moves in a straight line, but the player's wrist flicks a little at the very end of the stroke, the ball is going somewhere else. So _'follow-through_' is important.

That is why I think that it is so important to have either the chain, or the guide bar, securely clamped, so that the filer can use both hands to control the file, and not be 'fighting' a moving chain.

Philbert


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 5, 2017)

Totally agree Philbert.

That is what I'm trying to do, is observe the outcome, and adjust. The biggie is the difference between right and left filing. I do not work across my body the same on either side. It is obvious, even more so if you have ever tried yoga. You don't even need to do that. My wrists alone flex very different, the dominant being tight, and far more restricted, and considerably stronger, than the left. So when switching hands a lot is different. Therefore, I do as much as I can keeping the arms close in, and use the legs to do the forward glide motion.

Prior to this I used a Grandberg clamp on guide. Twenty plus years and it got sloppy. Still used it applying the pressure the same each time, then I noticed it would slip down a bit on the bar. I over tightened it and broke it. Bought another Grandberg, but have been using the Stihl 3/1.

Something not mentioned yet is eyesight. The camera is very helpful to see the differences, somewhat magnified. I have a 4X magnifier that I pull out once in a while and wear, but to see with it, I have to have my head closer, and then I'm back to using my arms to make the stroke. Seems less consistent, or consistently worse.

When sharpening I always use the bench vise. The cutter has to be fixed to use consistent pressure. The draw back is the lighting is okay, not ideal for detail work. 

On another note, I just ordered a hundred pallets for the Posch. That should be good for the next twenty five cord.


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## muddstopper (Jul 5, 2017)

I bought a sthil 3in one a couple years ago. Since then, I gave my grinder away. No so far away I can borrow it if I rock a chain. Anyways. I find that if I use a full stroke of the file, I tend to dip at the end of the stroke too. What I do are half strokes and stop filing before my hand starts to dip. Now sometimes I use the far end of the file and other times I use the tail end of file. I try to keep my strokes even and same for pressure, I also take the time to site down the bar and make sure the lines of the 3in1 file system are lined proper. After fileing one or two teeth, muscle memory sort of takes over.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 5, 2017)




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## turnkey4099 (Jul 5, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Yeah, I noticed the center of the link appears worn.
> From the nose of the bar?
> I saw a video on YouTube of a chain that is too loose. It whips around the drive sprocket, rises, and crashes into the bar, and takes a little hop back off the bar, then down.
> Since seeing that, I run my chain a bit tighter than I use to.
> ...



It expands as it warms up. If it is a bit tight as you finish the job, loosen it right after shutting down as it will contract and get TOO tight.

I started filing in 1976. Soon realized that learning to free hand was rather pointless and changed to one of the clamp-on file guides. Sets all the anggles, the depth and even the length of the tooth. Don't even have to pay much attention to what one is doing, just take a certain number of strokes (5 for me is about right unless it is rocked) advance, 5 more, advance. 20" loop takes about 10 minutes and that includes mounting saw in vise, the clamp on guide and setting the angles. When done I KNOW that every angle on every tooth is the same. I don't even try to 'touch up' a chain in the field, just grab a sharp one fromthe tool box and back to work.


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 5, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I ran some Lazer chain two summers ago and loved it.
> I've never seen their bar oil anywhere.
> Got the chain from a mom and pop shop that has since closed.
> 
> ...



While at the dealer try to get it swapped over to a rim sprocket. From then on it is only 'pull c-clip' replace rim, replace c'clip and back in business in under 30 seconds. New ones are cheap.


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## DSW (Jul 5, 2017)

Ideally I have the chain tight on the bar when I file. But if it isn't, it's not the end of the world, just follow the tooth to get the right angle. I wouldn't suggest it until you're comfortable filing in an ideal scenario.


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 5, 2017)

@Sandhill Crane I think in your application a grinder makes more sense, or a file guide. Freehand filing is a pissing contest. I have honestly never seen someone who can out do a properly set up grinder. I have met people who can almost match it. In my opinion the geometry matters more then the fine-ness of the cutting edge. The bad wrap for grinders is not well deserved. In my experience with firewood, time is money. I do all my bucking then all my splitting in blocks. I found it most productive to have 6 or 7 chains to rotate through. After I touched them up with a file once or twice they get ground to keep everything even.


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## muddstopper (Jul 6, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> @Sandhill Crane I think in your application a grinder makes more sense, or a file guide. Freehand filing is a pissing contest. I have honestly never seen someone who can out do a properly set up grinder. I have met people who can almost match it. In my opinion the geometry matters more then the fine-ness of the cutting edge. The bad wrap for grinders is not well deserved. In my experience with firewood, time is money. I do all my bucking then all my splitting in blocks. I found it most productive to have 6 or 7 chains to rotate through. After I touched them up with a file once or twice they get ground to keep everything even.


 I used to take several chains and a couple of saws, now I take 4 saws and a couple of extra chains.


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 6, 2017)

muddstopper said:


> I used to take several chains and a couple of saws, now I take 4 saws and a couple of extra chains.


Either way, you would have a lot of 4 or 5 chains dull at the end to sharpen, and doing 5 at once, I find grinding to be faster then filing. I find filing only faster on short bars with external clutches.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 6, 2017)

Never used a grinder.
When I first got a chainsaw, a Stihl 042 about 1980-81, I would have a shop sharpen the chains. After several bad experiences, getting blue tip cutters back that dulled with a half tank of fuel, I found an old timer that could hand sharpen hand saws and chainsaw chains for me. I was glad to give him the work. A few years later I bought a Granberg file guide that mounts on the bar.
I like the 3/1 now, more than the Granberg.
Truthfully, with the 50-60% use on this chain, I think the teeth are pretty consistent as far as length.
Cutters on left side are beginning to look better.

I have a new Granberg jig sitting on the shelf. I'm sharpening so often this is just an exercise to improve. 
I've also found the Granberg can slip down as the clamp pressure is not centered. This may be in part to my using cutting oil, or the pitiful thumb screw. Stripped the last one after many years, using a little extra leverage.

The newer ceramic crank jig looks interesting. May give the Timberline a try.

I'm cutting good in hard wood, just looking for improvement.
Not working the bar at all. Once the bar is into the log far enough, I wedge the kerf from pinching. (cutting on a log bench) Never touch the dogs to most stuff, just let the bar come down level on its own.
Been getting in some dirty logs, so sharpening practice every 1/4 to 1/2 cord this past week.
I'm not cutting any really big stuff to see how straight it's pulling in a long cut. That tells you real quick if your off. So there is that. 16" maybe, is about as big as I'm cutting, mostly smaller. 5" stuff or smaller can get grabby, so I just make sure it's pulling down, and the log is against the front of the bench.


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## DSW (Jul 6, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> have honestly never seen someone who can out do a properly set up grinder.



Allow me to introduce myself.......

I agree to a point. A well set up grinder can make a chain razor sharp, as can someone with a file who knows what they're doing. The angles of the cutters shouldn't be that far off if the person filing has some experience, yeah they won't be perfect but it won't matter unless they're significantly off, and if they're that far off that person needs more practice.


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 6, 2017)

DSW said:


> Allow me to introduce myself.......
> 
> I agree to a point. A well set up grinder can make a chain razor sharp, as can someone with a file who knows what they're doing. The angles of the cutters shouldn't be that far off if the person filing has some experience, yeah they won't be perfect but it won't matter unless they're significantly off, and if they're that far off that person needs more practice.


"not that far off' in the real world means little for all practical purpose, still gonna cut. Noted, nobody can beat a machine, never heard of someone who has that steady hands. If I am trying to show off my saws I will use a file n joint, but at the end of the day I am going to chose the fastest method to be good enough to be productive. Based on my own limited testing surface finish takes second fiddle to proper shape and angles.


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## Mad Professor (Jul 6, 2017)

I use a pferd combo file similar to the stihl setup you use for my milling chains. For crosscut chains I just use a round file holder, either a stihl or oregon

As the rakers get filed they get flat on the top so I dress the leading face to round them a bit. Do you check the rakers with a depth gauge? Maybe the flat file is holding the setup too high and you need to touch the rakers separate?

It does look like you could use more hook. What dia file are you using?


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## Philbert (Jul 6, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> That is what I'm trying to do, is observe the outcome, and adjust.


Key thing is that you are aware of an issue and now you can work on it. 

Might not 'solve' it at first, and as a couple of guys have noted, the chains do not have to be perfect to cut. Your awareness, and your interest to keep improving, are what will make you better over time.

Philbert


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 6, 2017)

Not at the house to check for sure, but I believe I'm using 13/64" files.
7/32" file (if it fits) in the same holder would give less hook...

Picked up a rim sprocket today and some clean pull cord to remove the clutch assembly.

I have a new .058 Oregon chain for this saw.
I think I'll mount that, and file one tooth to see if there is a change in profile.

Also have a new Stihl chain for another saw, so I will take some pictures for a better look at each.


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 6, 2017)

Tenderfoot said:


> Either way, you would have a lot of 4 or 5 chains dull at the end to sharpen, and doing 5 at once, I find grinding to be faster then filing. I find filing only faster on short bars with external clutches.



??? I carry at least 2 extra (sharpened) chains for each saw I have with me. Rare to change out one chain much less all of them. A big day of sharping chains would be somewhere around 4 hanging on the 'to be sharped' nail. I usually just sharpen the one(s) on the saws I will be using the next day if they need it....and my criteria of "need" is 'it wouldn't self feed when I quite last time'. I don't go until I have to "lean" on the saw.


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 6, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> ??? I carry at least 2 extra (sharpened) chains for each saw I have with me. Rare to change out one chain much less all of them. A big day of sharping chains would be somewhere around 4 hanging on the 'to be sharped' nail. I usually just sharpen the one(s) on the saws I will be using the next day if they need it....and my criteria of "need" is 'it wouldn't self feed when I quite last time'. I don't go until I have to "lean" on the saw.


I can wait more then a day to decide to sharpen all of them.


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## CaseyForrest (Jul 6, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Picked up a rim sprocket today and some clean pull cord to remove the clutch assembly.



Impact gun will zip the nut right off.


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## GVS (Jul 7, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> While at the dealer try to get it swapped over to a rim sprocket. From then on it is only 'pull c-clip' replace rim, replace c'clip and back in business in under 30 seconds. New ones are cheap.


Yup,I love rim drive!Wish I could come up with one for my limbing saw.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 8, 2017)

Almost ordered a Timberline sharpener from Bailey's last night. Right at $120. plus $20. per ceramic cutter. Then I thought, $140. is $140. ($160. really with two cutters), and I really have not heard much about them, except the ceramic cutters can chip if you crank it the wrong way.
Also, there is no top angle adjustment. 30* I did find on another site an optional adapter is available to do 25*
Anybody use one?
Likes/Dislikes...


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## Philbert (Jul 8, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Almost ordered a Timberline sharpener from Bailey's last night. . . .
> Anybody use one?
> Likes/Dislikes...


http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-chain-sharpener.180488/

Philbert


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 8, 2017)

I really like the roller file guide husky markets. It works very well for me and is just as fast as free hand filing. Its a good way to cross the bridge from 'I cant file at all' to 'I can file all the things!' It helped me build up good muscle memory, but it does not leave much hook if you use a 7/32 on 3/8ths chain. Not a bad thing IMO, just something to consider, it still throws big fat chips and cuts quickly.


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## Mad Professor (Jul 8, 2017)

Anybody else start out sharpening just using a round file with a handle? I even made the handles from a piece of hardwood branch. You could tap the end of the file into the pith in the center of the branch. This was when I was about 13. It took a while but I can make really sharp chain freehanding. You can tell when a cutter is sharp by the feel of the file as it passes along the cutter.

I did it this way for many years and used a flat file for the rakers. This was just eyeballing all the angles except for chains marked on the top of the cutters. You can make as much or as little hook as you want.

I got fancy years later and got the simple file holders that just clamp on to the file at each end (stihl, oregon) and regulates how much hook you can produce. It irritated me that you needed different holders for 3/16 or 7/32". If found you could shim the 7/32" file holder with a match book cover, and then use a 3/16 or 5/32" file in it. Depending on the shim you can adjust how much hook you file into the cutter.

Then I got a chainsaw mill, ripping chains, and discovered all sorts of gadgets used to sharpen chains: grinders, all sorts of file guides, dremel attachments............I ended up still sharpening my milling chains by hand but used a pferd file holder to try to keep the rakers even. I broke down and got a gauge for the rakers on my crosscut chains.

Depending on how dull a chain gets, 3-5 strokes with file usually gets all the cutters sharp. Again you can tell by the feel how many strokes each cutter needs, no sense in filing more steel off a sharp cutter. To even up the cutters, I just put a couple of extra file strokes onto all the cutters that are a bit longer. The shorter cutters only get more strokes if they are still dull. 

If the chain hit something, all the cutters that were damaged get filed until the top of the cutter cleans up.

I use my chains until a cutter finally breaks off, and until then they still cut well. Those chains get hung up on a nail for cutting stumps, line trees that may have metal, or very dirty wood.


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## Dolphus Raymond (Jul 8, 2017)

After several years of having my chains sharpened on a grinder, I too hand file now. I sharpen my saw after every use and have learned that the best way to sharpen a chain is to never let it get dull. Also, I have a depth gauge and check my rakers each time. Seems about every third sharpening I have to take them down a bit.


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## cantoo (Jul 8, 2017)

Sandhill, I bought one of the electric sharpeners from TSC and loved it for awhile then I realized that my chains were getting dull faster and weren't lasting as long either. And it seemed to take more time to sharpen them than by hand. I decided to start buying my chains in bulk and files by the dozen and throw them out more often. I have bad bones and joints so I pick the days that I sharpen chains. I also don't let them get very dull and find that a few strokes is all that is needed to get them back to cutting. I bought a decent wheel for it and I still use my electric one but not very often.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 8, 2017)

Thanks for all the posts.
Post #44. I read about the first fifteen pages, then jumped to the end.
I'm again tempted to try the Timberline after reading of others good/indifferent experiences. And now Timberline has been around awhile. 
I also sharpen often, but perhaps not often enough for super chisel style cutters I'm using.
Last time I sharpened I dressed the bar up, and flipped it, noticing I should have done that sooner as well.


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## Philbert (Jul 8, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I'm again tempted to try the Timberline after reading of others good/indifferent experiences.


 Some people really like it. You might. 

If not, there is still a lot of interest in it, and you should be able to sell it in the Trading Post. 

Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Jul 8, 2017)

.I use both a file and a grinder......sometimes depends on how many chains I have, how bad they are, or even my mood at the time....

When I use a file, I use a file no wood handle, no guide, nothing.....I get great results....

When I use a grinder, I get great results....

All comes down to how many/much you are sharpening your chains...

Bottom line, the file and the grinder are only as good as the guy operating them, period!!!!!


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## sawhoss (Jul 9, 2017)

Sandhill, have a jig with extra stones. Could you pm me, I'll make you a super deal.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 10, 2017)

CaseyForrest said:


> Impact gun will zip the nut right off.


Been out of town for several days, and nice to be home.

Pulled the cover off the 357xp. 
No nut, so I followed what I saw on several YouTube videos, pulled the plug and found TDC, pushed in a bit of clean pull starter rope. 
Used a screw driver and tapped it with a hammer, reverse thread. Sweet... 
New rim sprocket. The old one was worn and needed replacing, but not trashed out.

Pick up a hundred pallets in the morning and back to cutting and splitting...

And thanks Sawhoss...pretty country up that way. 
Been forty years since I've been there.


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 10, 2017)

Dolphus Raymond said:


> After several years of having my chains sharpened on a grinder, I too hand file now. I sharpen my saw after every use and have learned that the best way to sharpen a chain is to never let it get dull.
> 
> <snip>



right on!! Also throw away a file when it no longer cuts well. I spent too many years filing using files that were long past their service life before I learned to throw them away.


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## TreeswingerPerth (Jul 10, 2017)

As far as I'm concerned hand filling is the way to go , I take great delight in seeing my saw fire out good chips .

I believe you get a better edge than a grinder can produce , and my own stay sharp longer than others that were machine sharpened. I always try to get Save edge files if I can , they seem to cut really well and seem to last longer .

Only my opinion , but plenty of practice will produce excellent results .


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 10, 2017)

My last two times out cutting (I get out for an hour or two in evenings when I can - last just last night) my bars found the dirt more than once and they both are now doing the banana cut thing. I guess tonight will be some serious filing time.


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## Khntr85 (Jul 10, 2017)

TreeswingerPerth said:


> As far as I'm concerned hand filling is the way to go , I take great delight in seeing my saw fire out good chips .
> 
> I believe you get a better edge than a grinder can produce , and my own stay sharp longer than others that were machine sharpened. I always try to get Save edge files if I can , they seem to cut really well and seem to last longer .
> 
> Only my opinion , but plenty of practice will produce excellent results .


Have you ever ran chains that "you" personally ground, next to chains you have filed???

I am not at all trying to sound condescending....I used to think the same way....I dont cut "cookies" and have never and probably won't ever time a cut in my life...for real world cutting, you can get these chains to cut neck and neck with each other.....IMHO


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 10, 2017)

Khntr85:
Not sure what your saying. Grinding is more repeatable...

I've never used a grinder. Never wanted to because...
(in no particular order)
-it seems the learning curve would burn a few chains.
-I would have to take the chain off the saw. (The thing about that is I've always found the outboard clutch a pain.)
-it would remove more cutter than necessary each time.
-what grinder do I buy??? 
-what wheel do I use on it?
-when is a wheel replaced?
-I would need more chains to swap out at the wood lot. (right now I have the chain on the saw, and a new one, a back up, in the box.)

Should I be looking to buy a grinder? (I'm still shooting for 100 cord this year.)


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## Tenderfoot (Jul 10, 2017)

What you should do is subject to what you WANT to do. I know 15 man tree services that do not own a grinder and exclusively file. But, I also know that I like having a grinder even though I primarily file to true up chains and to deal with 5 or 10 at once.


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## Khntr85 (Jul 10, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Khntr85:
> Not sure what your saying. Grinding is more repeatable...
> 
> I've never used a grinder. Never wanted to because...
> ...


Hello sir.....first off let me say I am NOT saying one or the other is better than the other, just simply saying they compliment each other very nicely....

I heat my home and hot water with wood 6-months out of the year and do tree work on the side...I mainly cut hardwood, so I can't "half ass" sharpen a chain, or it won't last long!!!

Learning curve== yes...

Burning a whole chain, no if you can eat with a fork and knife, you can pick it up very quickly....

Grinder brand and wheel type, many options here....

Do some research, see what you think....I can guarantee you if you are doing 100 cord a year, you will find a good use for a grinder and wonder why you didn't get one years ago....if you are happy with the file after all these years, then keep at it with the file!!!


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 10, 2017)

I'm going to try the Timberline, thanks to sawhoss...


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 10, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Hello sir.....first off let me say I am NOT saying one or the other is better than the other, just simply saying they compliment each other very nicely....
> 
> I heat my home and hot water with wood 6-months out of the year and do tree work on the side...I mainly cut hardwood, so I can't "half ass" sharpen a chain, or it won't last long!!!
> 
> ...



There is a problem in that you are being way too reasonable. There must be some disagreement somewhere. I think that a $29 HF can work well, but it does not automatically set it self up. A good Oregon can more easily do a better job. I never could figure out how to use a guide so after a couple thousand cords free hand it is. I still think that those that want to learn and they have a reason to learn to file they could do a great job and be happy too. Thanks


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## TreeswingerPerth (Jul 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Have you ever ran chains that "you" personally ground, next to chains you have filed???
> 
> I am not at all trying to sound condescending....I used to think the same way....I dont cut "cookies" and have never and probably won't ever time a cut in my life...for real world cutting, you can get these chains to cut neck and neck with each other.....IMHO



I have only ever tried shop ground chains , I don't cut cookies or time cuts either but I felt my own sharpening was superior to the shop ground chains .
As I said only my opinion , maybe my local shop just ain't that good at grinding them ? But I'll stick to my hand filed chains .


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Ya - so after a quick supper last night I 'touched up' my 360 chain and made for the woods to drop a couple big old stubs I had my eye on. Don't know what I did wrong but the thing wouldn't make it thru a cut - big time banana cut thing going on now. It was fine before I hit the dirt with it the last time out. Then to top it off I pulled up to the garage door when I got back & front ball joint popped apart on the ATV when I hit the brakes. I guess at least it happened in the right place - but I won't be doing any cutting for a few days. Yesterday must have been a Monday.....


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

TreeswingerPerth said:


> I have only ever tried shop ground chains , I don't cut cookies or time cuts either but I felt my own sharpening was superior to the shop ground chains .
> As I said only my opinion , maybe my local shop just ain't that good at grinding them ? But I'll stick to my hand filed chains .


I hope you didn't take that post wrong I didn't mean to be rude in anyway!!!!

This is exactly what I was referring to, as far as the shop ruining your chain...people take there chains to a shop, and some burnt out kid that has never cut wood in his life ruins a guy's chain....then the guy is pissed,(and rightly so), and thinks all grinders in the whole world are junk...this is how grinder have gotten a bad reputation, IMHO.....90% of the people I sharpen chains for tell me that excactly story!!!!

Hey if it's worked for you this long, I wouldn't change a thing....

How many chains or rolls of chain do you go threw a year????


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> There is a problem in that you are being way too reasonable. There must be some disagreement somewhere. I think that a $29 HF can work well, but it does not automatically set it self up. A good Oregon can more easily do a better job. I never could figure out how to use a guide so after a couple thousand cords free hand it is. I still think that those that want to learn and they have a reason to learn to file they could do a great job and be happy too. Thanks


LOL, yes sir I do agree with you that most guys only need a file....I also believe that everyone that runs a saw should be able to ATLEAST touch up a chain with a file....people sometime act like filing is some secret art that only a few can ever learn, not the case....

I tell people to grab a few of their favorite beverages a file, a chain that needs to be sharpened, and a brand new chain....you simply set-up in a postition thats comfortable to you, and start trying to make the dull chains profile look like the new chains profile, don't forget to check the rakers, and lastly go try the chain after you file it...you can only learn if you want to and put in the effort!!!

My dad didn't give any other options when I was a kid, it was here, grab this file, watch me, then practice for yourself.....he said take care of your chain it's one of the most important steps in maintaining your saw!!!


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Ya - so after a quick supper last night I 'touched up' my 360 chain and made for the woods to drop a couple big old stubs I had my eye on. Don't know what I did wrong but the thing wouldn't make it thru a cut - big time banana cut thing going on now. It was fine before I hit the dirt with it the last time out. Then to top it off I pulled up to the garage door when I got back & front ball joint popped apart on the ATV when I hit the brakes. I guess at least it happened in the right place - but I won't be doing any cutting for a few days. Yesterday must have been a Monday.....


Are your cutters close to the same length.....

Can you snap a few pics from both sides of the chain...


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Are your cutters close to the same length.....
> 
> Can you snap a few pics from both sides of the chain...



I don't know now. I thought they were when I did my quick touch up last night - but I was in a hurry & only eyeballed. Sometimes it just never pays to be in a hurry I guess. Next stab at it I will take my time & check closer.

I did some searching on this on here later last night. Lots of past banana cut talk, but one thing I didn't find a good answer on and even conflicting info - if one side has higher cutters than the other, does it cut to that side or away from it? Mine goes left, so I was thinking the left side must be higher. But I found a couple posts saying the opposite - if the left side is higher it will go right.

Something sure isn't right - never had this issue like this before. And I did flip the bar and try it before I headed out - same deal, still went left.


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## Mad Professor (Jul 11, 2017)

I've been doing mostly cordwood on my own woodlot the last few years. One of the reasons I hand file is I can do that in the woods without taking off a chain. If my saw starts to get dull or I hit something, I'll cut a groove in a big stump and use that to hold the bar, or if you wish use a "stump vise":

http://www.baileysonline.com/Chains...Chain-Filing-Vises/WoodlandPRO-Stump-Vise.axd

If the chain is not too dull I can get it sharp in not _much more_ time than changing out a chain. If the chain gets really bad I grab one of my other saws, but I do carry a spare chain. My saws I can use in pairs with same bar/chain combos: 1) 16"/0.325 028S/026, 2) 20"/0.375 036 X 2 or 036/038M 038M X 2 , 3) 24"/0.375 038M X2 or 038M/066 056M/066. What I bring depends on the wood

One disadvantage of hand filing is if you want to carry spare chains into the woods, you need to remove/install each chain to sharpen it in advance. I can see wanting a grinder then. I'm usually on a 1 spare chain system and if I dull both when I get home I sharpen the one already on the saw, then install the 2nd dull one and sharpen that. The 1st chain becomes my spare for next cutting.

Another plus of multiple chains, which has not been touched on yet, is rotating chains evens up your driver and sprocket wear.


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> I don't know now. I thought they were when I did my quick touch up last night - but I was in a hurry & only eyeballed. Sometimes it just never pays to be in a hurry I guess. Next stab at it I will take my time & check closer.
> 
> I did some searching on this on here later last night. Lots of past banana cut talk, but one thing I didn't find a good answer on and even conflicting info - if one side has higher cutters than the other, does it cut to that side or away from it? Mine goes left, so I was thinking the left side must be higher. But I found a couple posts saying the opposite - if the left side is higher it will go right.
> 
> Something sure isn't right - never had this issue like this before. And I did flip the bar and try it before I headed out - same deal, still went left.


Just take the chain off and hold a left cutter next to the right cutter....

Yes if all the cutters on one side are off the saw will cut like yours.....1-2 cutters being off won't hurt nothing, the whole side will.....

I see this problem every time I sharpen for people....everyone has a strong side, and you will always take more material off that side....


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Just take the chain off and hold a left cutter next to the right cutter....
> 
> Yes if all the cutters on one side are off the saw will cut like yours.....1-2 cutters being off won't hurt nothing, the whole side will.....
> 
> I see this problem every time I sharpen for people....everyone has a strong side, and you will always take more material off that side....



So on the face of it - if it cuts to the left, would you expect the left cutters to be higher? Or the right?

Seat of pants was telling me left - but as said I found some conflicting input.


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## jomoco (Jul 11, 2017)

Dress your bar NSMaple!

The rails need to be burrless and even.

http://www.baileysonline.com/Chainsaw-Bars/Guide-Bar-Maintenance-Tools/Oregon-Bar-Rail-Dresser.axd

Jomoco


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## TreeswingerPerth (Jul 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> I hope you didn't take that post wrong I didn't mean to be rude in anyway!!!!
> 
> This is exactly what I was referring to, as far as the shop ruining your chain...people take there chains to a shop, and some burnt out kid that has never cut wood in his life ruins a guy's chain....then the guy is pissed,(and rightly so), and thinks all grinders in the whole world are junk...this is how grinder have gotten a bad reputation, IMHO.....90% of the people I sharpen chains for tell me that excactly story!!!!
> 
> ...





Khntr85 said:


> I hope you didn't take that post wrong I didn't mean to be rude in anyway!!!!
> 
> This is exactly what I was referring to, as far as the shop ruining your chain...people take there chains to a shop, and some burnt out kid that has never cut wood in his life ruins a guy's chain....then the guy is pissed,(and rightly so), and thinks all grinders in the whole world are junk...this is how grinder have gotten a bad reputation, IMHO.....90% of the people I sharpen chains for tell me that excactly story!!!!
> 
> ...



No offence taken ,
I use about 25/30 3/8 full chisel and maybe 15 .325 , a 404 on the 880 lasts me about two years . All loops , Stihl or Oregon generally.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 11, 2017)

A couple good posts.
I certainly fall into the 90% grinder burnt chain from a shop some thirty years ago.
And definitely what jomoco said....

Another thing to examine besides the cutters and rakers, is the bar.
Last year I was having a lot of trouble at one point.
Very poor results from sharpening and cutting to one side.

Turns out, quite by accident, I found there was a burr on one edge of the bar, and the bar was no longer square side to side when I put a machinist square on it and held it to the light. 
I bought a small bar dressing tool (a file and plastic right angle guide thing) and regularly flip the bar unsidedown after six or seven sharpening. 
The other thing to check, especially if you get in the dirt occasionally, is the gauge of the bar groove, or chain guide. There are small tools that have several sizes on one tool. All I can think of is .050 and .058, but there are others (.0404?). If the groove is worn and sloppy the chain will lay over a just a touch.
This is a good reason to keep things sharp, and not pinch bars in the cut, to keep the chain running as cool as possible in the chain guide. If the edge of the bar is a touch blue, or the paint is burnt, take a hard look at the bar, and adjust your cutting technique. (plastic wedges are really helpful) A bar can last a very long time with minimal touch ups. The chain I put photos up of, has thirty plus cords on it.


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## Philbert (Jul 11, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Khntr85: -I would have to take the chain off the saw.





Mad Professor said:


> One of the reasons I hand file is I can do that in the woods without taking off a chain. . . Another plus of multiple chains, which has not been touched on yet, is rotating chains evens up your driver and sprocket wear.



Yes.

Most manufacturers recommend running 2 to 3 chains in rotation (no pun intended) to maintain even wear on the drive sprocket and drive links. You also need to pull the bar periodically to really clean the bar grooves, file off burrs, and flip it to even out bar wear, as well as to clean out behind the bar.

If you use a device such as a chain vise; a Granberg style jig on a spare bar clamped in a vise; the 'Chainmeister', etc., it is possible to hand file spare chains without mounting each one on the saw.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/introducing-the-chainmeister.235996/

Philbert


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 11, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> I don't know now. I thought they were when I did my quick touch up last night - but I was in a hurry & only eyeballed. Sometimes it just never pays to be in a hurry I guess. Next stab at it I will take my time & check closer.
> 
> I did some searching on this on here later last night. Lots of past banana cut talk, but one thing I didn't find a good answer on and even conflicting info - if one side has higher cutters than the other, does it cut to that side or away from it? Mine goes left, so I was thinking the left side must be higher. But I found a couple posts saying the opposite - if the left side is higher it will go right.
> 
> Something sure isn't right - never had this issue like this before. And I did flip the bar and try it before I headed out - same deal, still went left.



Pretty much never does a bar have anything to do with anything. Yes it can wear uneven if there is extreme abuse. I had a very well used bar with hundreds of cords of use on it. It was beyond just sloppy and it cut in a curve so was going to change the bar and then had second thoughts. After careful examination I realized that it could be straightened out. After some file work with plenty of effort it cut pretty straight then I changed the bar. If the rakers are lower on one side it will cut that way. If the cutters are sharp on one side it will cut that way. If you hit a rock or a tough knot it often happens on one side so the other side some times will need to be filed so that both sides match a little. It is like aligning your car in that if your front end keep pulling to one side or the other it could be that one tire is very low on air so it has to be corrected. Not all links need to match, but they work best when most of them on both sides are doing their job. Having a section of new chain to compare is not a bad way to go. After many attempts success will happen. BTW leaving the chain on the bar with a vise of some kind that is adjusted to the firm side can be very helpful and then adjust it as needed when finished. Thanks


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Just take the chain off and hold a left cutter next to the right cutter....
> 
> Yes if all the cutters on one side are off the saw will cut like yours.....1-2 cutters being off won't hurt nothing, the whole side will.....
> 
> I see this problem every time I sharpen for people....everyone has a strong side, and you will always take more material off that side....



I mount my saw upside down in the vice. Allows me to file both sides right handed. Stand alongside bar for one side, at the tip for the other. I saw that tip on this site years and years ago. Still have a slight tendency to get one side sharper than the other somehow.


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## CaseyForrest (Jul 11, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I'm going to try the Timberline, thanks to sawhoss...



I'll be interested in your report. 


Sent from a field


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Well - I had an extra glass of red vino with supper so now off to the dungeon to break out the files....


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> I mount my saw upside down in the vice. Allows me to file both sides right handed. Stand alongside bar for one side, at the tip for the other. I saw that tip on this site years and years ago. Still have a slight tendency to get one side sharper than the other somehow.


I like to have the saw facing me, I can do both sides like this....I figured it's the easiest position to get into in the field.....

A lot of times I do it right on the tailgate with the saw handle pushed into the tailgate frame at an angle..


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## Khntr85 (Jul 11, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Well - I had an extra glass of red vino with supper so now off to the dungeon to break out the files....


Seems to help learn when you ain't in a hurry....

Not a good time to learn In the field, when it's about dark, and your tired, hungry and ready to get home, LOL


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 11, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Well - I had an extra glass of red vino with supper so now off to the dungeon to break out the files....



This saying comes to mind, "You have an eye like a dead fish..."


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 23, 2017)

The Timberline was on my doorstep today.
Many thanks to sawhoss in Wisconsin.
Tried it tonight. Run the chain around three times taking just a touch off each round. 
The cutters are sharpened from one side, the right side, looking down the bar, power head away from you, so opposite from how you would hold a saw to use it.
I had trouble a few times getting the carbide to start on some of the right hand cutters because the carbide enters from the outside of the cutter to the inside (which is backwards from hand filing.) Also a factor, this chain has been hand filed and some cutters were longer than others.

After the three loops around the chain I gave it a good look.
Thing is my chain is 50% or less, and as noted in previous posts the hook could have been more pronounced by lowering the file 1/32" to a 1/16".
The Timberline indexed off that bottom plateau of the tooth. The jig corrected tooth length and top angle, but not the hook on this used chain. 
I may put a new chain on tomorrow and try that with better luck, because the carbide cutter will index 'more gooder' (lower). 
(more gooder, more better. Terms my son used when he was younger, much younger than the 29 years he is now.)

My first impression is that the Timberline will be great for fine touch ups, but a really dull full chisel would be better done with several strokes of a file rather than five loops of the Timberline taking small amounts each time. Comparing the Stihl 2-1 (I've been incorrectly calling it the Stihl 3-1) and the Timberline. Top angle and side pressure for tooth length is more consistent with the Timberline. Depth on the Stihl is fixed and indexed from top of tooth down. Timberline is fixed and indexed from bottom of tooth up. For aggressive touch ups the Stihl would seem a better choice. I could mark the thumb screw, indexing it for tooth length, and rotate it a couple quarter turns for multiple passes on each tooth and then repeat.

What I did find the first go was that my top angle was very, very close, sometimes a touch under 30*, which is fine for hardwood. Tooth length did vary, one side being consistently a stroke or two shorter. Maybe I can adjust depth on this used chain with a file and then fine tune with the Timberline. This is a good chain to practice on and I have learned a bit already. The test will be cutting some wood today, although it is very still out, and humidity in the 90% + range.


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 23, 2017)

Last Friday was cutting some Oak limbs on my saw horse. The limbs are just some thing that I have to deal with to finish clearing the the small ranch I am working at. The small limbs are very dirty and hard on chains. My chain was sharp right after lunch so by 1 or 2 was needing some pressure to get through the limbs. The file that I was using was from a cheap set of files that I bought from a hardware store. I wanted to have an assortment of files for my little 50cc saws. After maybe 10 uses of the file it was needing quite a bit of pressure to get the hook just right. So I grabbed a new Oregon and breezed through the chain. My vise was screwed in to a stump that selected for sharpening. What became obvious was there were a few points that were a habit of mine. The chain was about 60 or 70% worn, but still cut great. First was was position to the chain was always consistent. This made the angles come out very uniform. The other thing that struck me was I was not looking at he chain, but looking around at the landscape and wild life. The hook came out great when it felt right. I knew what the hook should feel like. Then I noticed that using the worn file caused the cutters to have a slight arc, but the new file was almost perfectly straight and finally with a worn chain the hook should just barely go down into the connecting link. Thanks


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## aokpops (Jul 23, 2017)

I,m done with this find way sharpen chain an do it .


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## Skeans (Jul 24, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> ??? I carry at least 2 extra (sharpened) chains for each saw I have with me. Rare to change out one chain much less all of them. A big day of sharping chains would be somewhere around 4 hanging on the 'to be sharped' nail. I usually just sharpen the one(s) on the saws I will be using the next day if they need it....and my criteria of "need" is 'it wouldn't self feed when I quite last time'. I don't go until I have to "lean" on the saw.


Dang glad I don't fall timber with you if a chain isn't pulling I wouldn't run it at all myself I burn through 3 or 4 chains a day falling and bucking fir for a living. And to be honest you guys can keep your files I can grind them faster straighter and sharper then a file can any day of the week an hour or so a day grinding 32" 105 driver up to 60" 185 driver chains and you'll never file again.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## anlrolfe (Jul 24, 2017)

I can say that If I depended on bulk loops of saw chain to do my job hand filing I would be the last thing I'd want to waste my time on.

As a firewood getter, I can afford to pick and choose my variables. If it's too hot, too cold, too tired, too whatever I can do something else. I've known a person or two over the years that just buy a new chain when their old got dull. People that suit up and dog in on those massive crape myrtles with their electric saw every other year. As a firewood getter in a State with mild winters hand filing suits me well. I can clamp up the saw in the bench vice, sip a beverage, and take my time.


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## NSMaple1 (Jul 24, 2017)

Forgot about this thread after my vino related filing thing.

I spent longer than I've ever spent before filing a chain that evening. I grabbed a nearby small adjustable wrench & did some quick guaging, and found my right side teeth seemed to be longer/higher than the left side. Took a long time to get those consistent. But I also found I think that the left side had more hook (were deeper) - so took some time to try to even that out too. A few of the rakers on the right side seemed a bit higher too - but overall they seemed pretty good.

Anyway - next trip out it buzzed right through the big stuff that was binding me up the last time out. Seemed to cut just as good as when it was new, even though at this point there is not a whole lot of life left in it. So I was happy - and from all that it seemed the bigger hook on the left teeth had more influence than the longer/higher teeth on the right, making it banana to the left. Not exactly what I was expecting, but that's what it seemed like from what I think I found & what I did & the outcome. 

Then on the last couple of cuts I grounded the thing again - so we'll see next time out what that messed up. I switched to splitting mode after that day so don't know yet on that.


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## Sandhill Crane (Jul 24, 2017)

Skeans: What machine do you grind with?


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 24, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Dang glad I don't fall timber with you if a chain isn't pulling I wouldn't run it at all myself I burn through 3 or 4 chains a day falling and bucking fir for a living. And to be honest you guys can keep your files I can grind them faster straighter and sharper then a file can any day of the week an hour or so a day grinding 32" 105 driver up to 60" 185 driver chains and you'll never file again.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk





Skeans said:


> Dang glad I don't fall timber with you if a chain isn't pulling I wouldn't run it at all myself I burn through 3 or 4 chains a day falling and bucking fir for a living. And to be honest you guys can keep your files I can grind them faster straighter and sharper then a file can any day of the week an hour or so a day grinding 32" 105 driver up to 60" 185 driver chains and you'll never file again.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



It has been a number of years since cutting in Oregon, but very familiar with Oregon, Wash, Idaho. The trees in those states are *SOFT.* If you are happy with your grinder then that is what you should do. For me I would need at least 40 to 50 and maybe that would not be enough spare chains or carry a large supply of generating equipment to grind chains. I would say that most folks here love their grinders. There is not a possibility that you could take your chain off and change it and sharpen it cheaper, faster or sharper than I can just pull out a file and sharpen it right on the saw and go back to work. It seems like most believe using a file is VOODO art, well it is not. I would say you keep your grinder and go about and enjoy being in the forest doing what you like doing, but I will hang on to my ammo box with files. Thanks


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## Philbert (Jul 24, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> IThere is not a possibility that you could take your chain off and change it and sharpen it cheaper, faster or sharper than I can just pull out a file and sharpen it right on the saw and go back to work.


Maybe just exchange it for one sharpened back at the shop? (8.93 seconds!)



Philbert


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## Skeans (Jul 24, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Skeans: What machine do you grind with?


Silvey pro sharp, Silvey P&D for the 3/4 harvester chain, Silvey 510, then an Oregon setup for doing rakers.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Skeans (Jul 24, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> It has been a number of years since cutting in Oregon, but very familiar with Oregon, Wash, Idaho. The trees in those states are *SOFT.* If you are happy with your grinder then that is what you should do. For me I would need at least 40 to 50 and maybe that would not be enough spare chains or carry a large supply of generating equipment to grind chains. I would say that most folks here love their grinders. There is not a possibility that you could take your chain off and change it and sharpen it cheaper, faster or sharper than I can just pull out a file and sharpen it right on the saw and go back to work. It seems like most believe using a file is VOODO art, well it is not. I would say you keep your grinder and go about and enjoy being in the forest doing what you like doing, but I will hang on to my ammo box with files. Thanks


You can say what you want but if you want to come file my 60" chains have at it just make sure you keep the corners in check and both sides even it's hard enough to cut with that length all day let alone when you're fighting equipment.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 24, 2017)

Skeans said:


> Dang glad I don't fall timber with you if a chain isn't pulling I wouldn't run it at all myself I burn through 3 or 4 chains a day falling and bucking fir for a living. And to be honest you guys can keep your files I can grind them faster straighter and sharper then a file can any day of the week an hour or so a day grinding 32" 105 driver up to 60" 185 driver chains and you'll never file again.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



I see I wasn't clear. I either quit for the day or change out a chain when it needs down pressure to cut.


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## walkerkorby (Jul 25, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I hand sharpen with a Stihl three in one file.
> The second photo shows a spectral reflection from the corner tip inward. I think it is from the file dropping off and not being level.View attachment 588593
> View attachment 588592
> View attachment 588594
> The first photo is a dull, unsharpened cutter.


One of the issues with that three in one file, is that you don't get the necessary 10% down angle on the top plate. Ideally you'd be filing slightly upwards towards the tip, not level, this angle basically helps eject the chips. The problem with the three in one is that if you give it that slight angle then your depth gauges end up slightly pointy which isn't ideal, and it also lifts the file just slightly higher out of the gullet than where you want it.

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## NSMaple1 (Jul 25, 2017)

Necessary 10° down angle?

I always try to file flat. Also the recommended way per Stihl manuals. That I have.


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## Philbert (Jul 25, 2017)

walkerkorby said:


> One of the issues with that three in one file, is that you don't get the necessary 10% down angle on the top plate.


As I understand it, the STIHL 2-in-1 file / sharpener (and the Pferd model) is only supposed to be used with a 0° down angle. The same is true for all of the basic STIHL and Oregon file holders, like these:.




If you want / need that 10° down angle, you need to go a different way. I think that the Husqvarna roller guides have this angle 'built in'.

Philbert


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## Ted Jenkins (Jul 25, 2017)

Maybe just exchange it for one sharpened back at the shop? (8.93 seconds!)

Well Hi Philbert You can not take your chain off take the loose chain off set it up on your wonderful grinder sharpen your chain put the chain back on the saw and adjust the tension how quickly? Make a video of that process. The point is you do not want to learn the VOODOO art of sharpening your chain on the saw. You are in great company as there are many people who totally agree with you. That process is not for me and others. That is why companies sell grinders. HF grinders are only $24.99 for a limited time what is not to like. Have a very good day I will. Thanks


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 25, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Necessary 10° down angle?
> 
> I always try to file flat. Also the recommended way per Stihl manuals. That I have.



I'm old school. 35 cross angle, 10 up angle (or down, depending on how you look at it ) but I really set my cross angle a bit less that 35 as on a new chain teh file in the jig won't drop down through the gap between tooth and raker)


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## turnkey4099 (Jul 25, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Maybe just exchange it for one sharpened back at the shop? (8.93 seconds!)
> 
> Well Hi Philbert You can not take your chain off take the loose chain off set it up on your wonderful grinder sharpen your chain put the chain back on the saw and adjust the tension how quickly? Make a video of that process. The point is you do not want to learn the VOODOO art of sharpening your chain on the saw. You are in great company as there are many people who totally agree with you. That process is not for me and others. That is why companies sell grinders. HF grinders are only $24.99 for a limited time what is not to like. Have a very good day I will. Thanks



Yep, when I'm in the field I want the saws to be running and cutting. No down time except for breaks and at those times I want to be communing with nature and sipping coffee, not squinting at files.


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## walkerkorby (Jul 25, 2017)

Philbert said:


> As I understand it, the STIHL 2-in-1 file / sharpener (and the Pferd model) is only supposed to be used with a 0° down angle. The same is true for all of the basic STIHL and Oregon file holders, like these:.
> 
> View attachment 592891
> 
> ...


Yes, those can only work with a 0° angle, I usually use those roller gauges for that 10° angle. Here's what I just learned from reading above and then following up with a little research: Stihl chain is recommended to be filed flat and Oregon chain is recommended at 10°. Ha! Didn't know that. Truthfully I've never really been entirely consistent, when I use the roller I get 10° (which doesn't fit on stihl chain anyway) and when I use my pferd file I probably fudge it around 5-6° instead of perfectly flat...

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## Philbert (Jul 25, 2017)

walkerkorby said:


> Stihl chain is recommended to be filed flat and Oregon chain is recommended at 10°.


Part of the confusion is that those recommendations, as well as the recommended sharpening angles, have varied through the years. Sometimes they were different in different publications the same year.

So use that as a starting point, and decide what works best for you.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jul 25, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> Well Hi Philbert You can not take your chain off take the loose chain off set it up on your wonderful grinder sharpen your chain put the chain back on the saw and adjust the tension how quickly?



Ted, I really believe that you can file as well as you describe. It is a skill that only a small percentage of folks have.

A larger percentage can file 'good enough to get by'. Then there are people who don't even realize how bad they are. That's why companies like STIHL and Oregon suggest having chains 'evened up' with a grinder after every few hand filings. 

I receive many chains where the R and L teeth are completely different lengths, and have maybe 5 or more degrees difference in top plate angles, if they are even that consistent. So I true them up on a grinder (doing a batch right now). I will touch up a chain in the field with a file, but prefer to swap out more dinged up chains (storm cleanup is hard on chains). To do that I have to '_grind as I file and file as I grind_' so that I am not completely reshaping the teeth each time. I am sure that I could learn to file better, but do OK with a sharp file, some type of file guide, and the chain held steady with a stump vise, chain vise, or bored into a stump.

_'Lots of ways to sharpen; everyone has to find something that works for them'_.

Philbert


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## Skeans (Jul 25, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Ted, I really believe that you can file as well as you describe. It is a skill that only a small percentage of folks have.
> 
> A larger percentage can file 'good enough to get by'. Then there are people who don't even realize how bad they are. That's why companies like STIHL and Oregon suggest having chains 'evened up' with a grinder after every few hand filings.
> 
> ...


The only kicker I can say is if you're running longer then 28" bar full comp or semi skip it's faster to swap a chain out then it is to file especially when you run saws for a living.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Philbert (Jul 25, 2017)

_'Lots of ways to sharpen; everyone has to find something that works for them'_.

Philbert


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## Khntr85 (Jul 26, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> It has been a number of years since cutting in Oregon, but very familiar with Oregon, Wash, Idaho. The trees in those states are *SOFT.* If you are happy with your grinder then that is what you should do. For me I would need at least 40 to 50 and maybe that would not be enough spare chains or carry a large supply of generating equipment to grind chains. I would say that most folks here love their grinders. There is not a possibility that you could take your chain off and change it and sharpen it cheaper, faster or sharper than I can just pull out a file and sharpen it right on the saw and go back to work. It seems like most believe using a file is VOODO art, well it is not. I would say you keep your grinder and go about and enjoy being in the forest doing what you like doing, but I will hang on to my ammo box with files. Thanks


Have you been physically assaulted by a grinder, as soon as someone mentions one you seem to get very excited....

I am just joking with you ted, and I do totally understand we're you are coming from, you are not the only one that had to grow up and hand file a chain...

Any time some one says something about a grinder, you instantly assume that they can't file or do not even want to try....this is WRONG...a lot of guys that have grinders still file, I know I do, hell I actually like to hand file,(if it's my own chains lol)...

Believe it or not you DO NOT have to pick one or the other, YOU CAN use both....I know sounds absolutely outrageous, I do it all the time!!!

Let's be honest hand filing is NOT VODOO here people, it's simply chainsaw maintance....


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## Khntr85 (Jul 26, 2017)

I have never used/seen a timberline in person....what kind of adjustment does it have so all the cutters are the same length...

The Reason I recommend the granberg or the Stihl file holder is because you are actually learning how to "free" hand file while using the jig....once you have used the granberg or the file holder for awhile, you will easily be able to transfer into "free" hand filing (using JUST the file)....it's an easy transition because you are building muscle memory when using these!!

This is not vodoo, rocket science, or even that hard guys....get a file, a brand new chain, and a dull chain....get a good spot that's easy to see the chain and start filing the darn chain until you get it to resemble the brand new chain!!!


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## Big_Eddy (Jul 26, 2017)

I touch up my chain every tank. Only takes a few minutes and keeps it cutting properly. Haven't hit a rock in years - so it usually only takes a few strokes a tooth.

I've always used the Husky roller guide and they work well for me. Been using my original 0.325" one for >25 years. I recently sent my wife to pick up one for 3/8" chain, and the local saw shop sold her the Husky SharpForce http://www.husqvarna.com/us/accesso...g-equipment/sharp-force-file-guide/653000034/ instead (Pferd Chain Sharp). They told her that was what they used in the shop these days.

I've only used it once so far - and have not formed an opinion yet - but what I did notice was that the reference angles on the SharpForce are 35 degrees, whereas the Oregon recommendation for my 73LGX chain is 25 degrees. I used a sharpie to mark 25 degrees on it before I even started. I'll have a better opinion after a few more tanks through the saw. So far seems to work okay. I did have to take the gauges down a bit before the first use - they were holding the round file a bit high on the tooth.


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## Philbert (Jul 26, 2017)

That Husky SharpForce looks like the old version of the Pferd file guide. The roller guides are still available. 

Philbert


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## Big_Eddy (Jul 26, 2017)

Philbert said:


> That Husky SharpForce looks like the old version of the Pferd file guide. The roller guides are still available.
> 
> Philbert



Correct on both points.


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## Sandhill Crane (Aug 6, 2017)

Gave the Timberline a try. Gone back to hand filing with the Stihl 2-1 guide.


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## Khntr85 (Aug 7, 2017)

I haven't used the timberline, butbit just doesn't look helpful in any way to me!!!

Atleast will h a granberg a novice is building more axle memory without even thinking about it


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## Philbert (Aug 7, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> I haven't used the timberline, butbit just doesn't look helpful in any way to me!!!


In the main Timberline thread (http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-chain-sharpener.180488/) advocates say that it helps them to _maintain_ sharp, consistent edges. Not as good to reshape a rocked cutter.

Philbert


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 8, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Have you been physically assaulted by a grinder, as soon as someone mentions one you seem to get very excited....
> 
> I am just joking with you ted, and I do totally understand we're you are coming from, you are not the only one that had to grow up and hand file a chain...
> 
> ...



Excellent answer could not say it better or as well. Actually I am very good with a grinder, but it is not realistic to use being 4 or 5 hours away from electricity. Thanks


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## Sandhill Crane (Aug 8, 2017)

Philbert said:


> In the main Timberline thread (http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-chain-sharpener.180488/) advocates say that it helps them to _maintain_ sharp, consistent edges. Not as good to reshape a rocked cutter.



To anyone... send me ten bucks to cover shipping and a box and the Timberline is yours. 
First one to post gets it. 

Wait, everyone just send ten dollars, and the first one I get, I'll send it to. The others I'll just keep. Chop, chop!

For real. If some one wants it, it is yours for shipping. Three carbide bits included.


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## Ryan'smilling (Aug 8, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> To anyone... send me ten bucks to cover shipping and a box and the Timberline is yours.
> First one to post gets it.
> 
> Wait, everyone just send ten dollars, and the first one I get, I'll send it to. The others I'll just keep. Chop, chop!
> ...




PM incoming!


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## old guy (Aug 8, 2017)

Aah, beat me to it, Ryan.


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## Ryan'smilling (Aug 8, 2017)

old guy said:


> Aah, beat me to it, Ryan.




You'll just have to come over and grind some chains. By the way, you need any bar oil Jon? I'm headed to tractor supply this afternoon to make a dent in their stock of $6 gallons. Let me know if you want a few.


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## old guy (Aug 8, 2017)

No, I picked up a case about a month ago, thanks anyway.


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## Philbert (Aug 8, 2017)

Ryan'smilling said:


> I'm headed to tractor supply this afternoon to make a dent in their stock of $6 gallons.


$4.44/gallon, after 11% rebate, at that store where "_you save BIG money_"!

Philbert


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## Ryan'smilling (Aug 8, 2017)

Philbert said:


> $4.44/gallon, after 11% rebate, at that store where "_you save BIG money_"!
> 
> Philbert



Wow, right you are. They're practically giving it away...


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## sawhoss (Aug 8, 2017)

Crane, sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## Sandhill Crane (Aug 9, 2017)

If one can improve sharpening, it just makes it all the more pleasurable each time the saw is used. I think I gave the Timberline a good effort to learn, sharpening a dozen or more times, refurbishing a chain and using it many times on a new Oregon chain. 
-The Oregon, I believe, had a 10* angle, and the Timberline doesn't, so I cut wood, and it took a few sharpening to change that. 
-Refurbishing the old chain showed some cutters a bit shorter. The Timberline did not allow me to increase depth of the hook as shown in the first pictures I posted. 
-On the new chain, full chisel, I felt the carbide depth was too low, the cutter very sharp, but did not hold the edge as long as my hand sharpening. That is subjective of course. I sharpened the new chain five or six times before reverting back to hand filing. 
At that point, I enjoyed hand filing over cranking, and better visibility of the cutter being sharpened.
Glad I tried the Timberline. The next person can now give it a go and come up with his own opinion.


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## Big_Eddy (Aug 9, 2017)

I have used the sharpforce twice now - been too busy for much cutting with other work. My son used my saw over the weekend and ran a tank through the saw after my last sharpening to see what he thought. His feedback afterwards was that my right teeth were rounded (i.e. file motion is not straight) and my left teeth were more like 30 degrees than 25. He said the depth gauges were perfect though. He resharpened it for me (oregon guide) after the tankful.

I'll keep using it and see if I can improve.Good to get his feedback - my eyes aren't what they used to be.


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## Philbert (Aug 9, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I think I gave the Timberline a good effort to learn, sharpening a dozen or more times, refurbishing a chain and using it many times on a new Oregon chain. . . . Glad I tried the Timberline. The next person can now give it a go and come up with his own opinion.


Would you please copy this post and add it to the 'Timberline thread': 
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/new-chain-sharpener.180488/

It would be helpful for others. 

Thanks!

Philbert


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## Marine5068 (Aug 9, 2017)

cantoo said:


> Sandhill, I usually use the oil from TSC but after wearing out a cheap bar last year in a few hours cutting I switched to some heavy Poulan oil that I had on hand. I just bought 2 jugs off the stickiest oil that Lazer makes. My stihl dealer says he thinks it is better than stihl oil. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet though. And I make sure that I ordered the better bars this time around. I also replace my drive sprockets more often.


Ya, I also bought the Poulan oil ( I think it was on sale at TSC). It just seemed a bit heavier which works for me seeing as I cut mostly at moderate to warm outdoor temps.


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## Marine5068 (Aug 9, 2017)

rarefish383 said:


> On oil. I have bars that are 40+ years old that saw 20+ years of commercial service, then me cutting firewood and milling with them for another 20 years. Most of our saws, in the 70's had automatic oilers, but they all had thumb pumps too. Dad would give anyone heck if they weren't constantly pumping. Always use a full tank of oil per tank of fuel. Back then I never heard of "Bar Oil". We just used the cheapest 10W30 oil we could get, by the case, at KMart. I still use 10W30 unless I catch a good sale. To put in perspective how much my saws still get used, I mix in 5 gallon batches, and use about 5 gallons a month. By the 80's we bought enough saws, pretty much all Homelites, that other dealers started sending us flyers on their products. Then I remember reading one manufacturers theory on using thick oil that would cling to the bar and lubricate longer, and an others claim that thin oil was better because it flew off the end of the bar, carrying heat off the the bar keeping it cooler. Both theories had a pile of scientific research to prove their side. We kept using 10W30, and now I have 40 year old bars, still in service. I adjust the chain so you can pick it up with 2 fingers, and the drivers come to the top of the bar groove, but not sagging off the bottom. I would rather run it a little loose than tight.
> 
> On filing, I still free hand with a chunk of an Oak stick stuck on the file for a handle. I rotate the file after every stroke, and every third or fourth stroke I tap the file across the chain to clean out the filings. I think the files last longer that way. A sharp chain will create less heat and aid in longer bar life. When you have to start leaning on the saw to cut you are creating a lot of heat. I can buck up an Oak log and hold the bar in bare hands when done. If the bar is so hot you can't touch it, you are not using enough oil, your chain is dull, or too tight. That bar won't last long.
> 
> Sharp chain, lots of oil, long bar life, Joe.


I'm in full agreement of everything you said there.
Oil is way cheaper than replacing bars and chain too.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 9, 2017)

I would say that about sums it up Joe. I have one Stihl rollomatic that has cut a few hundred cords and still cutting straight , but it has graduated to 063 now. Thanks


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## Philbert (Aug 10, 2017)

Unclear on the Concept

The whole point of this type of file guide is to hold the file at the correct height: that depends on the chain tooth size and file diameter.
Home Depot's answer is that it is easier to stock one 'Universal' size.




Philbert


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## skindaddy (Aug 11, 2017)

ive got a few for you we bought my dad a oregon 511ax sharpener yrs back and i've been playing with it for awhile now also have a carbide or diamond blade i bought for it anyway , can never get good and big chips, no matter how slow or fast i go impossible to sharpen without blueing the tooth.

also whether by machine or hand how do you make the hook larger?


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> ive got a few for you we bought my dad a oregon 511ax sharpener yrs back and i've been playing with it for awhile now also have a carbide or diamond blade i bought for it anyway , can never get good and big chips, no matter how slow or fast i go impossible to sharpen without blueing the tooth.


Blueing the teeth usually means that you are pressing too hard on the wheel (best to use an intermittent tapping motion), or not dressing it.
Diamond wheels are only for carbide teeth, not for conventional chain, although, there are similar looking CBN wheels for conventional chain.
Lots of threads on grinding. Here are a few:

http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/chain-grinding.290970/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/resinoid-grinder-wheels.256733/
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...uy-an-oregon-511-or-something-similar.248403/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/best-bench-grinder-for-sharpening-chains.306129/



skindaddy said:


> also whether by machine or hand how do you make the hook larger?


Go deeper with the file or lower the wheel further than the manufacturer's specifications to get more 'hook'.

Philbert


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## Mad Professor (Aug 11, 2017)

Philbert said:


> $4.44/gallon, after 11% rebate, at that store where "_you save BIG money_"!
> 
> Philbert



Fuzzy math, 11% off is $5.34/gal


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2017)

Mad Professor said:


> Fuzzy math, 11% off is $5.34/gal


"EVERYDAY LOW PRICE$9.97
SALE PRICE$4.99 
11% MAIL-IN REBATE$0.55 
FINAL PRICE $4.44"

Philbert


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## skindaddy (Aug 11, 2017)

cbn was what i was trying to think of. got that.
also yes i have tried bumping, tapping, contstant ,. same results
with tapping it dont at first but by the 3rd, or 4th tap its hot enough it turns. i suppose if i took minutes per tooth i could succeed.

as far as hook by machine do you mean lower in height or lay motor on a lower angle as in column C in 2nd pic


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> as far as hook by machine do you mean lower in height or lay motor on a lower angle as in column C in 2nd pic


Lower angle in column 'C', and take the wheel deeper, towards the tie straps.

I think that it helps to take a Mr. Miyagi ('_Karate Kid'_) approach: start with a vision of what you what your cutters to look like, then figure out what grinder settings will get you there. Some guys keep a few links of brand new chain next to their grinder to use as a reference. You can also mount a well filed chain in your grinder vise, and try to 'copy' those angles.

Philbert


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## Ryan'smilling (Aug 11, 2017)

Mad Professor said:


> Fuzzy math, 11% off is $5.34/gal





Philbert said:


> "EVERYDAY LOW PRICE$9.97
> SALE PRICE$4.99
> 11% MAIL-IN REBATE$0.55
> FINAL PRICE $4.44"
> ...



I paid $4.99 at the register. Got the rebate slip in my wallet.


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## old guy (Aug 11, 2017)

I get more hook going from 60 degrees to 55 degrees.
I set the chain up so the wheel just barely touches the tooth, then I go all the way around the chain with one tap per tooth, if that is not enough I adjust the chain into the wheel & go around again one tap per tooth however many times it takes to get it sharp,
then I go to the other side of the chain & do it all over again readjusting the chain into the wheel.
If your burning the cutter your either taking too much at a time or staying too long, just a ''tchick'' is all it takes.


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## SeMoTony (Aug 11, 2017)

Mad Professor said:


> Fuzzy math, 11% off is $5.34/gal


Way fuzzy math. I'm still waiting for my 11% rebate voucher to buy the oil at Menards. Only been 2 months since it was mailed? Un impressed w/that store. Bought gallon b&c oil with original coupon & watched chainsaw carver out front for a while. Only went back because the family owned store dint have, Lowes dint Have, Family Center lacked, Rural king dint have, Menards had it and promised 11% off voucher. Had to spend another 50 some odd cents for stamped envelope to mail it. I'm better off at Lowes with 10% off at register with military deduction.
Stay safe


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2017)

old guy said:


> just a ''tchick'' is all it takes.


Aren't you a little old to be chasing '_tchick_'s?

Philbert


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## CaseyForrest (Aug 11, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> cbn was what i was trying to think of. got that.
> also yes i have tried bumping, tapping, contstant ,. same results
> with tapping it dont at first but by the 3rd, or 4th tap its hot enough it turns. i suppose if i took minutes per tooth i could succeed.
> 
> as far as hook by machine do you mean lower in height or lay motor on a lower angle as in column C in 2nd pic



My guess, if you're blueing teeth with a CBN wheel, is you are taking to much material off. I have CBN wheels and I find that what works best, probably with the vitrified wheels as well, is to just kiss the cutter. If you're running your chains to the point that they literally wont cut anymore, you may have to run a chain through the grinder twice just so you aren't trying to take off too much material in a single pass.

I don't let my chains get to dull, they are constantly being touched up with a file during the day. I can normally just lower the grinder head smoothly and slowly into and all the way down into the cutter. No tapping... no bouncing.

The thing about the CBN wheels is they remove material faster than a vitrified wheel. Try just hitting each tooth once or twice... The first touch half way through, second one to the stop.


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## Skeans (Aug 11, 2017)

Might also try some wax on the wheel

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Khntr85 (Aug 11, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> cbn was what i was trying to think of. got that.
> also yes i have tried bumping, tapping, contstant ,. same results
> with tapping it dont at first but by the 3rd, or 4th tap its hot enough it turns. i suppose if i took minutes per tooth i could succeed.
> 
> as far as hook by machine do you mean lower in height or lay motor on a lower angle as in column C in 2nd pic


You have got to have a "goal" in mind....if you don't know what a good profile for a cutter is, a grinder will mess a chain up faster than a file...:if you know what profile you want, a grinder will achieve it quicker....

Get a brand new chain to keep as a reference and have a tree guy/arborist show you how to correctly file a chain....

What settings are you running???


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## Philbert (Aug 11, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> You have got to have a "goal" in mind....if you don't know what a good profile for a cutter is, a grinder will mess a chain up faster than a file...:if you know what profile you want, a grinder will achieve it quicker....
> Get a brand new chain to keep as a reference and have a tree guy/arborist show you how to correctly file a chain....


Sounds like the wise man in post#135!

Philbert


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## skindaddy (Aug 12, 2017)

khntr85 ---What settings are you running???
for my husq. table 30* down 10 and motor 60* down 10
for dads stihl 30* table flat 75* motor

is there a diff. in the top plate angle and side plate angle just seen it in my notes and cant remember what i wrote?

what bar clamp on hand guides is everyone using


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## skindaddy (Aug 12, 2017)

old guy said:


> I get more hook going from 60 degrees to 55 degrees.
> I set the chain up so the wheel just barely touches the tooth, then I go all the way around the chain with one tap per tooth, if that is not enough I adjust the chain into the wheel & go around again one tap per tooth however many times it takes to get it sharp,
> then I go to the other side of the chain & do it all over again readjusting the chain into the wheel.
> If your burning the cutter your either taking too much at a time or staying too long, just a ''tchick'' is all it takes.



isnt it kinda hard to keep the teeth the same length doing it like this?


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## skindaddy (Aug 12, 2017)

i think the greats here should have a shootout and whoever thinks there the best at machine and/or by hand, should make a video for all of us under achievers and be the ultimate Stickie here. i know theres youtube but you never know whats right, or point out this or that


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Sounds like the wise man in post#135!
> 
> Philbert


Lol, sorry philbert I use a lot of your methods....

You have helped and continue to help me and I really appriciate it!!!


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> khntr85 ---What settings are you running???
> for my husq. table 30* down 10 and motor 60* down 10
> for dads stihl 30* table flat 75* motor
> 
> ...


I have my Oregon grinder heat tilt set at 55, (that's what Oregon reccomends)...

I use 30-toplate for Stihl and 25-for Oregon...

We need to see some close up cutter pics....get a clear pic of both sides of a cutter...

I use the "vice tilt" on chisel chains.....


Also don't get the hand filing side plate angles confused with the grinding head tile angle....look at the grinding chart philbert posted...

Can you get some pics of your chain....it's so much easy to see what you could be doing differently in a picture...


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

Also CBN wheels are nice, but you CAN still burn a cutter....you need to try and use a tap-tap-tap method, and take a tiny, tiny bit off each cutter at a time....

Do NOT try and take all the dull or bad materieal off at once.....as others have stated, you may have make 2-3 passes on a chain that is really dull or has hit something....

As a lot of guys who have cut a lot, you learn to stop cutting as soon as you have to force the saw to cut...:if you have to use the digs and apply a lot of force, that chain is done....swap out chains when they get dull, and sharpening them is easy...


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

Get some pics up close like this so we can see your chain...


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## Sandhill Crane (Aug 12, 2017)

Khntr85. It that hand filing or grinder?


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Khntr85. It that hand filing or grinder?


Grinder....

I can't remember if I did that chain on my Oregon 520, or the Stihl USG....


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## turnkey4099 (Aug 12, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Also CBN wheels are nice, but you CAN still burn a cutter....you need to try and use a tap-tap-tap method, and take a tiny, tiny bit off each cutter at a time....
> 
> Do NOT try and take all the dull or bad materieal off at once.....as others have stated, you may have make 2-3 passes on a chain that is really dull or has hit something....
> 
> As a lot of guys who have cut a lot, you learn to stop cutting as soon as you have to force the saw to cut...:if you have to use the digs and apply a lot of force, that chain is done....swap out chains when they get dull, and sharpening them is easy...



I change out chains when one quits "pulling", i.e., feeds itself down through the cut without down pressure. If t won't cut holding with one hand it gets changed. No I don't cut one handed but will do it just a few seconds to see if the chain is cutting well.


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## SeMoTony (Aug 12, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> isnt it kinda hard to keep the teeth the same length doing it like this?


BobL has pointed out that the chain "porpoises" or has an up & down or close to bar then a few hundredths of an inch away from bar motion. His point was that keeping the depth gauge height close to the same for each tooth is more important than the cutters all being the same height. If the bar was flat and the chain rode a uniform way down this level rail same height cutters wood be ideal. When the raker relation to the cutters on the chain is uniform I think the chips/cut will be smoother for the power head and operator. This isn't the first time my thoughts have been disagreed with. Stay safe


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## old guy (Aug 12, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> isnt it kinda hard to keep the teeth the same length doing it like this?


No, just the opposite is true, this keeps them all the same, how can you see it any other way, if you go around the whole chain without changing anything they are all the same.


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## Sandhill Crane (Aug 12, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> I change out chains when one quits "pulling", i.e., feeds itself down through the cut without down pressure.


Excellent statement! And time saver, both cutting and sharpening.


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> Excellent statement! And time saver, both cutting and sharpening.


Do you use a grinder or hand file or both...

I use both, actually really like to use both...

I cut down a silver maple that was leaning towards my house the other day and I hand filed the chains....

I usually cut hardwoods, so when I cut a soft wood like silver maple I realize how much easier it is to cut....when a guy cuts hard woods all the time, he better have his chains in point!!!!


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## Khntr85 (Aug 12, 2017)

I know a lot of guys say safety chains are "junk", well I gladly keep them....any one whom is competent with a grinder or handfile, can make them cut just fine....

I grind the safety hump down, then I use the chain for situations were there may be metal/debris in wood...

This chain has been ground/filed pretty far back, but still plenty of life in her....

As a wise man once told me, grind as you file, file as you grind.....

This is a Stihl RM 3/8 chain that was sharpened with the grinder...


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## turnkey4099 (Aug 13, 2017)

Khntr85 said:


> Do you use a grinder or hand file or both...
> 
> I use both, actually really like to use both...
> 
> ...



I use an Oregon clamp on that sets all the angles and depth. Only takes about 10 minutes/20" loop including mounting saw in vice and attaching the guide. Also had one of those cheap grinders. Used a couple times but it took longer than the filing guide. Never could see trying to free hand it as I can't see where it saves any time.


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## Ted Jenkins (Aug 14, 2017)

In my grinder days some times I used a spay bottle to make sure the cutters did not get too hot. Along with that if I was setting up a chain for myself I would take a small amount of the cutter off and on to the next for accuracy and to make sure they did not get too hot. To do a great job on your chain it is a little slow and tedious. I still have some safety chain or low kick back and find that it does not cut any different than any of my other chains. Of course the low kick back part has pretty much been ground away. I am always looking for any log or misc. wood laying around that could cause a kick back knowing that a lapse of concentration could bring disaster. Khn's chain look about the same hook as my filed chain so they should cut fine. Thanks


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## GVS (Aug 15, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> I use an Oregon clamp on that sets all the angles and depth. Only takes about 10 minutes/20" loop including mounting saw in vice and attaching the guide. Also had one of those cheap grinders. Used a couple times but it took longer than the filing guide. Never could see trying to free hand it as I can't see where it saves any time.


 


I have the Oregon clamp on guide too but it seems that the angle scale on the left and right side were off a small amount from one side to the other.After a few sharpenings the saw wanted to cut to one side.I bought a Granfers and solved the problem.


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## turnkey4099 (Aug 15, 2017)

GVS said:


> I have the Oregon clamp on guide too but it seems that the angle scale on the left and right side were off a small amount from one side to the other.After a few sharpenings the saw wanted to cut to one side.I bought a Granfers and solved the problem.


My Oregon is slightly off on depth side to side but that is just a minor adjustment.


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## skindaddy (Aug 18, 2017)

would you buy a oregon 557849 or a granberg similar clamp on sharpener


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## GVS (Aug 18, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> would you buy a oregon 557849 or a granberg similar clamp on sharpener


I'd recommend the granberg.


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## Philbert (Aug 18, 2017)

skindaddy said:


> would you buy a oregon 557849 or a granberg similar clamp on sharpener


Lots of info and photos in this thread:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/granberg-file-n-joint-revisited.193630/

Also a lot of customer reviews for each on Amazon (search by model numbers). Clearly, people have preferences for each.

Objectively, the Oregon 557849 is physically larger and heavier, The parts are better finished. Oregon also makes a smaller, less expensive version (model #23820).
The Granberg Model# G-106B is closer in size to the smaller Oregon model. The parts are made out of some type of pot metal which need to be smoothed out IMO.

All of these work. Older versions also available on eBay, etc.

Philbert


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## bigfellascott (Sep 21, 2017)

Is the side you are concerned about your weak side? (we all have a strong and weak side when it comes to filing apparently)

I too use the Stihl 2in1 and find it a ripper little setup, my mate wasn't sure about it at first but has now been converted and bought an aftermarket version (identical just blue instead of the stihl colour) we cut around 50-60ton a year and the 2in1 just speeds up the sharpening process for us and we get great results (we swap out files when we feel they aren't working as well as they should).

Simple to use, fast and efficient, what's not to like about that.


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## alleyyooper (Sep 22, 2017)

Don't any of you use a file card? Just beating the file on some thing to get the filings out dulls the file too.

 Al


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## Sandhill Crane (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm with bigfellascott on Stihls 2and 1. Simple and great results. I do add a step now, and that is to take the rakers down an extra stroke or two with a flat file and then another stroke on the front of the rakers to round them. The saw pulls nicely into the wood and floats thru Oak up to 14"-16". On larger wood it seems a little aggressive for a 4.4 hp saw and works it a little. On bigger wood this week I used a 661 and 25" bar with good results cutting Beach.


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## old guy (Sep 22, 2017)

alleyyooper said:


> Don't any of you use a file card? Just beating the file on some thing to get the filings out dulls the file too.
> 
> Al


If I beat the file I just tap the tip on something, mostly I just rub it on my pantsleg.


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## Ted Jenkins (Sep 22, 2017)

I try to keep my files clean as possible. Maybe there is a better way. I wash them once in a while with straight gas to get the oil off of them. I use a rag pretty often to wipe them off. Not my pants leg. When I sharpen a chain I look for a piece of softer wood to clean the chain off a bit before sharpening. I have never really used a guide. I learned to sharpen my saw by hand when I was 14 so when trying to set up a guide it seemed so weird. I worked for a Stihl dealer when in my 20s and set up a Stihl grinder for customers. I buy files by the dozens so forget to know how long a files lasts. Thanks


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## Sandhill Crane (Sep 22, 2017)

alleyyooper said:


> Don't any of you use a file card?


 I have one, it hangs on the bench close at hand, and use it often but mostly on flat wood rasps and metal files. The round chain saw files I use Tap Magic, a cutting fluid to float the filings away.


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## panolo (Oct 31, 2017)

I read this thread and bought the Stihl 2-1 and the Timberline. I like them both but think the 2-1 is easier and does a little better job for my skill level, especially in the field. Although I think it might be easier to be a little more uniform with the timberline. Thank for all the tips guys.


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## NSMaple1 (Oct 31, 2017)

My 360/20" is still getting under my skin. I thought I had it figured out when i last posted. I haven't used it much since, but had it out over the weekend. Didn't get too far into felling a big spruce stub before it started cutting crooked again. I don't think i hit anything. When I was at it before, I thought I had convinced myself it had more hook on the side that it was cutting towards, so I set about refiling to fix that and it seemed to work. When I sat down with it on Sunday after getting the spruce taken care of, it looked like the opposite was the case. More hook on the site opposite to the way it was curving. Not sure I'll get back out with it this year again or not.


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## Philbert (Oct 31, 2017)

panolo said:


> I read this thread and bought the Stihl 2-1 and the Timberline. I like them both but think the 2-1 is easier and does a little better job for my skill level, especially in the field.


Key thing is finding something that works for you!

Philbert

P.S. You should be able to recoup some of your investment in the Timberline in the Trading Post, Craigslist, etc.


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## Philbert (Oct 31, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> My 360/20" is still getting under my skin. I thought I had it figured out when i last posted.


Maybe try a new chain to rule out a bar problem?

'Hook', angles, cutter lengths, depth gauges, should be the same on both sides. 

Philbert


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## bigfellascott (Oct 31, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> My 360/20" is still getting under my skin. I thought I had it figured out when i last posted. I haven't used it much since, but had it out over the weekend. Didn't get too far into felling a big spruce stub before it started cutting crooked again. I don't think i hit anything. When I was at it before, I thought I had convinced myself it had more hook on the side that it was cutting towards, so I set about refiling to fix that and it seemed to work. When I sat down with it on Sunday after getting the spruce taken care of, it looked like the opposite was the case. More hook on the site opposite to the way it was curving. Not sure I'll get back out with it this year again or not.



Find the shortest cutter on the chain, use a shifter to measure it (then use the shifter as a guide to see if each cutter is the same length, if they aren't file them down until the shifter fits over them as well, that's the best way I know of to making sure each cutter is the same length (when they are longer on one side compared to the other you usually get the bannana cuts as I call em, other option is a worn bar.


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## turnkey4099 (Oct 31, 2017)

Went out todau tp noodle some 32" rounds down to sizes I can load. MS361/20" and MS441/25". Bothe with scip tooth chains I filed just yesterday using a clamp on guide. Niether one would cut for crap. Changed chains on 441 to a chain I filed last week. Cut great. Last time that happened I found the problem was setting the wrong angle on the file guide. Tooth felt razor sharp at the point but definitely dull forabout the last half of the tooth. Live and learn...again. I haven't checked the guide yet but those two chains are back on the 'to be filed" nail.


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## Philbert (Oct 31, 2017)

Just because you '_filed_' it, does not mean that you '_sharpened_' it!

Philbert


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## NSMaple1 (Oct 31, 2017)

bigfellascott said:


> Find the shortest cutter on the chain, use a shifter to measure it (then use the shifter as a guide to see if each cutter is the same length, if they aren't file them down until the shifter fits over them as well, that's the best way I know of to making sure each cutter is the same length (when they are longer on one side compared to the other you usually get the bannana cuts as I call em, other option is a worn bar.



I went thru all that a couple months ago and thought I had myself sorted. The main thing I haven't determined or got my head around is this : if your cutters are all the same length and height, but one side has more hook than the other, does it pull/curve to that side or away from it? 

I also went through my bar and am 95% sure it is fine. Also cuts the same when flipped.


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## Sandhill Crane (Oct 31, 2017)

Check the bar. Does it have a burr on one side and not the other? Flip the bar and check that side. If so, use your raker file and lay it flat on the bar to remove the burs. Then, using a bar file guide dress the top and bottom of the bar. These guides are inexpensive and used to level and true the top and bottom edge of the bar. Then check it with a small square.


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 1, 2017)

Yes did all that a couple months ago. Plus it cuts the same way (to the left) with bar flipped either way.

I haven't searched again since then, but I searched quite a bit then and couldn't find the answer to which way excessive hook will pull the cut. Or does it push it? Therein is the rub. Think I found conflicting opinions. It's easy (but maybe a bit tedious) to get your teeth all the same length, and the rakers all the same height, and make sure the angles are right - but consistent hook is a bit harder, side to side, for me at least, since I seem to put more down pressure on one side than the other.

I did get a new chain for it back in the summer but the stubborness now has me wanting to figure this out once and for all, before I swap chains, and get it working right again, and work it until it has near no teeth left.


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## Philbert (Nov 1, 2017)

I would just be speculating. 

If a chain is more aggressive on one side (say the Left) for any reason, it would seem that it would 'eat' more wood on that side, and 'pivot' on the other side (curving to the Right side in this case).

Take a chain. Intentionally put excess hook in one side, and experiment? Let us know.

Philbert


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## DSW (Nov 1, 2017)

I'm not saying bar issues that cause a cut to favor one side don't happen but in my experience it's typically the chain. 

I've also found cutter length differences, within reason, rarely cause it as well. 

I would say one side is dull as hell.


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 1, 2017)

After my sessions with this issue, I have convinced myself the only difference one side to the other is the amount of hook. At least in my case with this one chain. I have no problem recognizing dull as hell teeth when I see them, that isn't the situation here. I'm not sure I will be using it again this year, after my sharpening session of Sunday, so it might be a while before I see how that did. Although the stubborn curiosity might see me taking a go at a random piece of big wood. Randomly. Somewhere.

I think I will also be trashing a chain or two next year, I have my eyes on some old stumps & roots at our summer place that need gotten rid of. So might take that opportunity to see how purposely filing a chain wrong a certain way will cause it to act.


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 1, 2017)

Philbert said:


> I would just be speculating.
> 
> If a chain is more aggressive on one side (say the Left) for any reason, it would seem that it would 'eat' more wood on that side, and 'pivot' on the other side (curving to the Right side in this case).
> 
> ...



Hmm, that sorta makes sense.


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## Philbert (Nov 1, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Hmm, that sorta makes sense.


Thanks. But I'm just guessing.

Philbert


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 1, 2017)

DSW said:


> I'm not saying bar issues that cause a cut to favor one side don't happen but in my experience it's typically the chain.
> 
> I've also found cutter length differences, within reason, rarely cause it as well.
> 
> I would say one side is dull as hell.



Right on!!...except for one side being dull as hell. It only has to be a bit misfiled to cause the problem. I really haven't had the crooked cutting problem since I started usign a clamp on bar guide and learned to throw files away when they got dull.


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## DSW (Nov 1, 2017)

I only ever get a bar that wants to curve badly if I hit some grit, typically in standing dead trees, it will sometimes dull one side worse than the other. I've never purposely put a hook on one side and went tame on the other so it's definitely possible.


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## bigfellascott (Nov 1, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> Right on!!...except for one side being dull as hell. It only has to be a bit misfiled to cause the problem. I really haven't had the crooked cutting problem since I started usign a clamp on bar guide and learned to throw files away when they got dull.



Yeah you definitely have to get in the habit of rotating your files to get the best out of them, I find they just glide too easily and don't feel like they are taking any metal off, I then just give them a little twist in the file guide to find a part of the file which is good to go. I've even had some new files that didn't feel right from the get go, not sure why but they just didn't file right so I just bin em and get another one out (not like they are expensive to buy).


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## Skeans (Nov 1, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> After my sessions with this issue, I have convinced myself the only difference one side to the other is the amount of hook. At least in my case with this one chain. I have no problem recognizing dull as hell teeth when I see them, that isn't the situation here. I'm not sure I will be using it again this year, after my sharpening session of Sunday, so it might be a while before I see how that did. Although the stubborn curiosity might see me taking a go at a random piece of big wood. Randomly. Somewhere.
> 
> I think I will also be trashing a chain or two next year, I have my eyes on some old stumps & roots at our summer place that need gotten rid of. So might take that opportunity to see how purposely filing a chain wrong a certain way will cause it to act.


I'll make you an offer I'll throw the chain or chains on my grinders if you're interested.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NSMaple1 (Nov 1, 2017)

Thanks for the offer but I think it would cost more to get it there and back than a new chain would cost. Would be one time a grinder might come in handy though. And for next years stumping sessions. Hmmm...


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## Skeans (Nov 1, 2017)

NSMaple1 said:


> Thanks for the offer but I think it would cost more to get it there and back than a new chain would cost. Would be one time a grinder might come in handy though. And for next years stumping sessions. Hmmm...


I've done it for a few guys typically do small flat rate boxes depending on length 72 driver 3/8 you can fit about 4 in a box.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## rarefish383 (Nov 2, 2017)

Philbert said:


> Just because you '_filed_' it, does not mean that you '_sharpened_' it!
> 
> Philbert


I might have posted something way, way back in this thread. But here goes. Sometimes we just overthink stuff. I'm fourth generation in the tree business, so I may have an advantage. I don't use a guide or handle. Sometimes with my small files, or touching up one of the 36" plus chains my fingers start to cramp, so I break off a stick fatter than a pencil and jam it on the file. Most of us are not racing saws or cutting timber, perfection is not required. Most chains have a hash mark on them showing the angle. For beginners purpose, if you follow that line and keep your file dead level, it will cut well enough. Every now and then lay the file across the top of the teeth, if the rakers are holding the file above the cutters, give them a few swipes with the flat file. It will cut good enough. I've hit steel in trees that knocked one side of the chain way back. After filing the rocked side way back and just touching up the other side, the teeth were noticeably different, but it would still cut fast, straight, and throw chips. For beginners, just try to hold that angle, keep your file strokes level and straight. I've seen guys that try to sharpen the saw with it sitting to far away from them. The last inch of the stroke, they started to curve the file. Keeping the stroke straight is one of the hardest things to master, Joe.


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## Philbert (Nov 2, 2017)

My point is that '_the file_' does not sharpen the chain, the _person_ sharpens the chain, using the file, grinder, Dremel tool, whatever. If they know what they are trying to achieve (e.g. sharp bevels on the top and side plates), they can sharpen with almost any tool - granted that they will likely have more skill or experience with one or the other.

If they have no idea what a sharp cutter looks like, what they are trying to achieve, they can file all day, file the backs of the cutters, square off a sharp bevel, etc.

So 'taking 3 strokes with a file', or using a different type of file guide, is not going to necessarily get them a sharp chain. Same thing with a $1,000 grinder. If you know what you are trying to accomplish, and use these tools _intentionally_, then maybe a sharp file and a stick may be all that some guys need.

Philbert


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## cat10ken (Nov 2, 2017)

I've always said, if you have to mark your cutters you are filing so you can tell when you are done; you obviously can't tell a dull tooth from a sharp one.

I prefer to use a clamp on the bar type guide although I have 2 Oregon grinders. I don't like having to take the chain off the saw to sharpen.

With the clamp on guide I will sight down the file to make sure the top edge of the file is about 10% above the top of the tooth; this will give you the right hook. I think this is built in on the hand held guides.

I have also found that tooth length isn't all that important, just adjust the raker depth for each tooth.

I'm 67 have been cutting and burning wood since I was a kid so don't be too hard on me if you don't agree.


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## turnkey4099 (Nov 3, 2017)

cat10ken said:


> I've always said, if you have to mark your cutters you are filing so you can tell when you are done; you obviously can't tell a dull tooth from a sharp one.
> 
> I prefer to use a clamp on the bar type guide although I have 2 Oregon grinders. I don't like having to take the chain off the saw to sharpen.
> 
> ...



RE: marking teeth.

Good luck with your belief, eventually you will start to loose your eyesight some and will be marking teeth. One person on these type threads has already confessed that he had to eat crow on the subject.


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## Ted Jenkins (Nov 3, 2017)

Some one was asking me the other day how I sharpened chains after thinking for a moment IDK. I was too busy watching some deer navigating through some fence lines that I was not paying any attention to the sharpening process. It is necessary to glance down at the cutters to see if they are cleaned up well. Although Cat like me is a seasoned OLD FART who wants to spend more time cutting than messing around with chains. The fastest cheapest way to get the most out of any chain is to skillfully hand file it to perfection every time period. It takes time to learn how to skillfully accomplish this process that most people do not want to bother learning. Many do not have the patience to learn this process. Otherwise there would not be any chain saw shops anywhere. Many AS people take their saws to have upgrades or routine maintenance performed. These folks do not want to perform these tasks themselves so. I have never taken any saw to any shop ever so. I am positive that those who take their saws to shops to have work done enjoy cutting wood just as much as those whose perform all their own work maybe more. It appears that more than half of fallers or amateurs prefer to set up an grinder for their chains so they can be uniform with out surprises and they enjoy cutting just as much as anybody. So there are folks from one end of the spectrum to the other who all enjoy cutting. As far as the rakers are concerned even though I have filed hundreds of chains I do not always do it perfect. I was cutting some larger Pine logs that were a little soft the other day and decided that it would be OK to go a little more aggressive with the rakers so gave each one a couple extra strokes. Just like riding a wild bronco it shook like mad. So back to basics each cutter needs to be looked at to see if the rakers are properly matched. If Cat can mark the rakers that are in need of special attention effectively then he should mark them he will still be back to cutting sooner than most with a big smile. Let the chips fly. Thanks


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## Big_Eddy (Dec 20, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> I mount my saw upside down in the vice. Allows me to file both sides right handed. Stand alongside bar for one side, at the tip for the other. I saw that tip on this site years and years ago. Still have a slight tendency to get one side sharper than the other somehow.


I was sharpening in the garage last night and recalled this post. My usual technique is saw sitting on bench, tailgate or stump, one hand on the file, finger of the other supporting the side of the tooth being filed.
Last night, flipped the saw over and clamped it in the vise, used 2 hands on the file. Much easier and much more consistent angle and pressure from tooth to tooth and especially side to side. I'll be doing that again next time. My son (who cuts and sharpens a lot more than I do) was watching and had to give it a try too. He may be converted as well.


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## Sandhill Crane (Dec 20, 2017)

turnkey4099 said:


> eventually you will start to loose your eyesight some and will be marking teeth.


I sharpen the same number of strokes per tooth as a somewhat close estimate. About mid way through a chain I will take a hard look, sometimes with dividers or a magnifier headset, to see how the individual tooth lengths compare. Generally I find one side shorter than the other, but I've been correcting pressure some. If I find the my dominate side, my right, is noticeable shorter then I take a couple extra strokes off the long side.
I use a bench vice to sharpen for a couple reasons. The work is held steady. The work height is comfortable and I can move with my legs, holding the file fairly consistent throughout the length of the file stroke. And relating to eyesight, the lighting is very good.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 21, 2017)

Big_Eddy said:


> I was sharpening in the garage last night and recalled this post. My usual technique is saw sitting on bench, tailgate or stump, one hand on the file, finger of the other supporting the side of the tooth being filed.
> Last night, flipped the saw over and clamped it in the vise, used 2 hands on the file. Much easier and much more consistent angle and pressure from tooth to tooth and especially side to side. I'll be doing that again next time. My son (who cuts and sharpens a lot more than I do) was watching and had to give it a try too. He may be converted as well.



Are you trying to say that you were sharpening your saw with one hand? I do not think that would work well. Left or right hand on the file handle with the opposite hand on the other end of the file. There is no other possible way. When you get done with one side including rakers go to the other side of the saw and repeat.

Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 21, 2017)

Sandhill Crane said:


> I sharpen the same number of strokes per tooth as a somewhat close estimate. About mid way through a chain I will take a hard look, sometimes with dividers or a magnifier headset, to see how the individual tooth lengths compare. Generally I find one side shorter than the other, but I've been correcting pressure some. If I find the my dominate side, my right, is noticeable shorter then I take a couple extra strokes off the long side.
> I use a bench vice to sharpen for a couple reasons. The work is held steady. The work height is comfortable and I can move with my legs, holding the file fairly consistent throughout the length of the file stroke. And relating to eyesight, the lighting is very good.



In the garage or out in the field same process. I run the file until i see or feel the leading edge just start to curl and then I know it is time for the next. It is rare that one side of the chain is longer, but when I notice it is loped side I do the same just a couple extra strokes to let the chips fly Thanks


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## Big_Eddy (Dec 21, 2017)

Ted - there is another way - been doing it for years. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Round file with handle, no guide. Saw on tailgate, stump, log, bench.

Right hand cutters.

Saw facing away from me.
Left hand holds the file by the handle. Index finger extends up the file to apply some side pressure to the file.
Right hand on the right side of the bar, index finger up and supporting the outside of the tooth being filed.
File at the correct the angle, control file depth by adjusting placement of the finger.
3-5 strokes per tooth
Left hand cutters.

Saw facing left to right in front of me. Left hand has file. Thumb applies side pressure
Right hand reaches around the bar, index finger up and supporting the outside of the tooth, setting depth.
Same process.
I still do the above when touching up in the field.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 21, 2017)

MR Big I do not believe there is any other way, but you are doing it so what can I say. Why do you hold the tooth that you are sharpening? Two hands on the file makes sense. If your chain is a little sloppy that is the time to firm it up. I sharpen usually once and hour to once every hour and half. One hand would get so tired trying to do all the work. I most often pick out a stump that is just the right location and height. Then I set my vice oil fuel grease gun etc. 100 plus cutters of 404 with one hand six times a day seems pretty rough but that is why you are Big Eddy. Thanks


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## Big_Eddy (Dec 21, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> MR Big I do not believe there is any other way, but you are doing it so what can I say. Why do you hold the tooth that you are sharpening? Two hands on the file makes sense. If your chain is a little sloppy that is the time to firm it up. I sharpen usually once and hour to once every hour and half. One hand would get so tired trying to do all the work. I most often pick out a stump that is just the right location and height. Then I set my vice oil fuel grease gun etc. 100 plus cutters of 404 with one hand six times a day seems pretty rough but that is why you are Big Eddy. Thanks


Ted - without a vise to hold the bar, the second hand is primarily holding the bar in place to stop the saw from moving around. Sliding that finger up beside the tooth adds a bit more support to the side of the tooth and provides a depth "stop" for the file to ensure the optimum 20% file above tooth.

Just the way I do it - not saying it's the best way.

Now that I've tried filing upside down in the vise - I'll be doing a lot more of that in the future.


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## old guy (Dec 21, 2017)

I also use one hand on the file & one one the tooth, when it gets to the left cutters I turn the bar to the left and keep using my right hand only now I push backwards.


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## panolo (Dec 21, 2017)

I was recently gifted a used grinder when my buddy replaced his. I'm not great with it yet but have had a couple oopsies chains that I worked over. I can get them pretty close but if I take my 2-1 over with a few finish strokes they cut like a bandit. Really like how quick the grinder cleans up the rocked chains much faster than hand filing. I'm running full chisel stihl chains on all my saws currently and they cut fast but dull easy. 2-1 tightens them up very quickly in the field.


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 22, 2017)

Now I understand the folks who have been sharpening, but without a vice. Any vice makes the most sense to me. Take a 4 to 6'' C clamp and weld a lag bolt on the end opposite the screw handle and you have a vice. Take a small log and make about a 8 to 10'' cut and stick your bar into it along with a small wedge of wood to make your bar tight and you have a vice. Once your bar is secure you can accelerate much faster at getting your chain fine tuned. Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Dec 22, 2017)

panolo said:


> I was recently gifted a used grinder when my buddy replaced his. I'm not great with it yet but have had a couple oopsies chains that I worked over. I can get them pretty close but if I take my 2-1 over with a few finish strokes they cut like a bandit. Really like how quick the grinder cleans up the rocked chains much faster than hand filing. I'm running full chisel stihl chains on all my saws currently and they cut fast but dull easy. 2-1 tightens them up very quickly in the field.



When cutting green Pine or Oak chisel chain makes some sense, but with dryer wood a semi will outlast and cut faster. Thanks


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## old guy (Dec 22, 2017)

I use nothing but full chisel chain and cut all dead dry wood.


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## turnkey4099 (Dec 22, 2017)

old guy said:


> I use nothing but full chisel chain and cut all dead dry wood.



Same here. I probably have to change chains more often than with semi though. Doesn't bother me, just gives me more time bent over the bench sharping chains.


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## panolo (Dec 22, 2017)

Ted Jenkins said:


> When cutting green Pine or Oak chisel chain makes some sense, but with dryer wood a semi will outlast and cut faster. Thanks


 Most of what I cut is a hardwood. This year has been mainly red oak, sugar maple, ash, and elm. Most is pretty green. I have been going to buy a few semi chains but haven't yet. It seems once you get a good edge on a full as long as you don't dirt it that you can cut a lot of timber. Every third tank or so I'll make a few turns with 2-1 and it tightens right back up.


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## Iaff113 (Dec 22, 2017)

panolo said:


> Most of what I cut is a hardwood. This year has been mainly red oak, sugar maple, ash, and elm. Most is pretty green. I have been going to buy a few semi chains but haven't yet. It seems once you get a good edge on a full as long as you don't dirt it that you can cut a lot of timber. Every third tank or so I'll make a few turns with 2-1 and it tightens right back up.



When you all say 2-1 are you talking about the stihl sharpener 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## panolo (Dec 23, 2017)

Iaff113 said:


> When you all say 2-1 are you talking about the stihl sharpener
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes, sir. I think some other's make it and it runs a little cheaper because it is not creamsicle colored. It's really idiot proof.


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## Big_Eddy (Jan 7, 2018)

Anyone else having a terrible time keeping a chain sharp when it's cold out? Minus 15-20 C or about 0F this week. Cutting logs off a pile. Clean wood. Can't seem to keep the chain sharp. Not even a tank before feels dull again. Tried semi-chisel (brand new). Same thing. 20-30 mins max before it seemed to be dulling. Touch it up and another 30 mins. Normally get a couple tanks a sharpening minimum. 

Probably doesn't make a difference but saw is a 562xp and it's running great. Auto tune rocks.


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## Philbert (Jan 7, 2018)

Frozen wood is harder than unfrozen, green wood. If you know that you will be cutting frozen wood, consider a shallower top plate angle (say, 25° instead of 30°). Or, consider having different chains to swap out for different situations.

Philbert


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## Ted Jenkins (Jan 7, 2018)

Big_Eddy said:


> Anyone else having a terrible time keeping a chain sharp when it's cold out? Minus 15-20 C or about 0F this week. Cutting logs off a pile. Clean wood. Can't seem to keep the chain sharp. Not even a tank before feels dull again. Tried semi-chisel (brand new). Same thing. 20-30 mins max before it seemed to be dulling. Touch it up and another 30 mins. Normally get a couple tanks a sharpening minimum.
> 
> Probably doesn't make a difference but saw is a 562xp and it's running great. Auto tune rocks.



I have not seen much difference whether wood is frozen or not since my wood is seasoned and dry. In my experience the semi rocks everything else does not. Thanks


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## Big_Eddy (Jan 7, 2018)

Philbert said:


> Frozen wood is harder than unfrozen, green wood. If you know that you will be cutting frozen wood, consider a shallower top plate angle (say, 25° instead of 30°). Or, consider having different chains to swap out for different situations.
> 
> Philbert



Oregon 73LPX filed at 25 degrees 7/32 file, rakers at 0.025" per usual (Oregon spec)
Chain is at 70%. 

Semi chisel was brand new. Oregon 73DPX


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## Philbert (Jan 7, 2018)

That's all I got! You can experiment with other angles, less hook, etc., and see how that woks. The caveat is that edges that hold up longer will likely cut slower too. 

Sharpening more frequently might just be a fact of cold weather cutting . . . 

Philbert


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## muddstopper (Jan 8, 2018)

panolo said:


> I was recently gifted a used grinder when my buddy replaced his. I'm not great with it yet but have had a couple oopsies chains that I worked over. I can get them pretty close but if I take my 2-1 over with a few finish strokes they cut like a bandit. Really like how quick the grinder cleans up the rocked chains much faster than hand filing. I'm running full chisel stihl chains on all my saws currently and they cut fast but dull easy. 2-1 tightens them up very quickly in the field.


 What kind of grinder? Those cheap ones that dont allow you to set all the angles are worthless on full chisel chain. With full chisel, you need a 10* upward angle and those harbor freight, $30 grinders dont have that adjustment. With semi chisel, those cheap grinders work pretty well because you dont use the 10* angle when sharpening them. I had a fix angle grinder once and gave it away when I bought one of the oregon clones at Northertool. The Norther grinder would allow for all the angle adjustments, all tho the little dgree indicators where off a little bit. I used a new chain to set all the angles and marked the scale and it worked great after that. I gave the clone away to a friend after buying the sthil 3in1 file system. I wanted it close in case I rocked a chain, but prefer hand fileing now.


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 8, 2018)

I rarely use 10 degree up angle on my full chisel chain. Only when I'm bored and want to take the extra step moving the vice. 

Cuts just fine. 

sent from a field


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## panolo (Jan 8, 2018)

muddstopper said:


> What kind of grinder? Those cheap ones that dont allow you to set all the angles are worthless on full chisel chain. With full chisel, you need a 10* upward angle and those harbor freight, $30 grinders dont have that adjustment. With semi chisel, those cheap grinders work pretty well because you dont use the 10* angle when sharpening them. I had a fix angle grinder once and gave it away when I bought one of the oregon clones at Northertool. The Norther grinder would allow for all the angle adjustments, all tho the little dgree indicators where off a little bit. I used a new chain to set all the angles and marked the scale and it worked great after that. I gave the clone away to a friend after buying the sthil 3in1 file system. I wanted it close in case I rocked a chain, but prefer hand fileing now.



Timber something. Never really looked to be honest. He's not a cheap skate as he upgraded to the Oregon hydraulic. Mounted it on a piece of 2x8 so I can clamp and use it in multiple areas and just went ahead and experimented. I didn't 10 degree grind any. I just checked the angles best I could to make sure they were close. Maybe I will try that and see if it makes a difference. 

It's not doing too bad a job. Cut about 4 cord yesterday with one saw and one chain. Touched it up twice with 5 strokes a tooth using the 2-1. Mostly all red oak with a little ash, maple, and couple of white oak logs mixed in. Most was clean except for the few that were in the bottom of the pile and pulled some frozen ground up with them.


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

muddstopper said:


> . . . With full chisel, you need a 10* upward angle . . . I gave the clone away to a friend after buying the sthil 3in1 file system.


The STIHL 2-In-1 file holder is designed to be used in a level position; with a 0° down angle.



_"Sharpening STIHL Saw Chains_"
http://static.stihl.com/security_data_sheet/downloads/Sharpening-STIHL-Saw-Chains.pdf

Philbert


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## muddstopper (Jan 8, 2018)

Philbert said:


> The STIHL 2-In-1 file holder is designed to be used in a level position; with a 0° down angle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didnt see any mention of chain up or down angle, might of missed it. But on every chain box I have bought will have a chart similar to this one, http://en.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf, on the back of the box, and the chains I buy always call for the 10* up angle. From personal experience, I can tell the difference in cutting with a chain sharpened at 0* and one sharpened at 10* For semi chisel, the proper angle is 0*


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

I get it. They provide us with confusing and, sometimes contradictory, information.

I have seen different angles in different charts. Some of the newer Oregon charts recommend the 'down angle' for many semi-chisel chains as well. That's why I encourage people to consider these specifications as 'starting points', as opposed to gospel truths.

It's also important to understand the file guides. Both the STIHL / Pferd 2-in-1 guide; and the basic, stamped metal file guides; are designed to be used level. The Oregon file charts even have this noted with an asterisk (*). 

Other guides may have the down angle 'built-in'. The Granberg style clamp-on guides let you dial in whatever you want. With a better grinder (as you noted), I can try and match any profile that the user prefers.

Bottom line is that you found something that works for you.

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

Here's a condensed screen shot from one of the Oregon pages:



And from a STIHL guide :



Different manufacturers. Different chains. Different saws. Different wood. Different users.
So, again, take all the 'specifications' as 'starting points', and find something that works for you!

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

*STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 1
*
Was unable to load this as a single document, due to its size, even zipped. So uploading it in 3 PDF parts. Lots of good stuff inside.

Original document: sharpening_STIHL_saw_chains_0457-181-0121_02.pdf

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

*STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 2*

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 8, 2018)

*STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 3*

Philbert


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## Philbert (Jan 10, 2018)

Posted this before, but if it helps you to remember . . . .

You file your square chains _in_,
You file your round chains _out_,
You drop down the rakers
and you clean the gullets out.
Make all teeth the same
and you hear the sawyers shout,
"_That's what it's all about!" - _Philbert


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## Jeffkrib (Mar 11, 2018)

Guys I'm looking to buy a chain grinder in the next couple of months, been filing for years but would like to correct angles and rocked chains. I just got an old hand me down rusted Oregon clamp on file guide but the body of the clamp is plastic so I'm not impressed. Also I use Carlton chain which is very hard on files. I find it difficult to get the file to bight and cut unless its a brand new file.
I have a bit of money set a side and could even buy a USG which I could probably use a USG all my life and hand it down to my kids. I'm a toolmaker by trade and have used surface grinders, cylindrical grinders, tool & cutter grinders ect so I understand for precision its all about rigidity and the amount of play in the moving bits in the hinge. That's one half of the equation the other half is how precise the chain is clamped in the vice.
Which brings me to my question looking on ebay I found this Windsor grinder which is clearly a Jolly star grinder but it looks to have a different chain vice. Does anyone have guidance on the quality of the these two different vices This Windsor grinder can be had for $375, Jolly star for $550 and USG $1000.

*Tecomec jolly star*






*Windsor Grinder*


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## Philbert (Mar 12, 2018)

Tecomec makes a few different models of grinders, which are sold under a few different brand names. In some cases, these grinders (e.g. Oregon branded) may have different or additional features.
http://www.tecomec.com/category/_chain_saw_accessories/index.htm

The Jolly Star grinder you have pictured uses the same 'self-centering' vise used on the (now discontinued) Oregon 511AX grinder, which worked well for normal use, but some high-volume users wore these vises out:
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511ax-vise.228345/
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/has-anyone-used-the-oregon-511a-and-the-511ax.261521/
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511ax-repair-mod-and-similar-units.263497/

The Windsor grinder you show looks like the very basic Tecomec grinder, which uses a cam style vise (same type as used on the also discontinued Oregon 511A), which can still wear. It does not have the 'down angle' adjustment or a built in light, but available for under $200 here in the US via eBay.

I believe that both use the same motor, and the same grinding wheels, and are both better quality than the 'clone' / 'look alike' versions.

The Oregon 520 grinder has an improved cam vise, that clamps the chain from both sides, has all of the angle adjustments, and a unique wear feature for the wheels to keep them centered (under $350 in the US from various sources). Check that model out too.

Other grinder tips here:
https://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/511a-grinder-improvements-tweaks.197073/

Philbert


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## Jeffkrib (Mar 12, 2018)

Thanks Philbert, that's the sort of answer I was looking for. I will go to a couple of local dealers, hopefully they have some grinders for me to have a look at and make my decision from there.


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 13, 2018)

I can see that Philbert has done his job. In the past he has always had kind words to say and patiently explained what grinding disks to use. Me on the other hand not so much. Only 15 or 20 years ago I learned to check my rakers every time I ran a file over the cutters. Although I have an electric grinder have never been able to use it more than every five years. This past week I got a new roll of 404 semi with lots of chrome on the cutters. Also have been playing with angles and depth so was able to cut more logs than two guys with new 660. Not me alone against two guys at the same time, but was fun. Thanks


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 13, 2018)

panolo said:


> Timber something. Never really looked to be honest. He's not a cheap skate as he upgraded to the Oregon hydraulic. Mounted it on a piece of 2x8 so I can clamp and use it in multiple areas and just went ahead and experimented. I didn't 10 degree grind any. I just checked the angles best I could to make sure they were close. Maybe I will try that and see if it makes a difference.
> 
> It's not doing too bad a job. Cut about 4 cord yesterday with one saw and one chain. Touched it up twice with 5 strokes a tooth using the 2-1. Mostly all red oak with a little ash, maple, and couple of white oak logs mixed in. Most was clean except for the few that were in the bottom of the pile and pulled some frozen ground up with them.


 
I cut Friday almost 2 cords before I needed to hit the chain, but not anywhere near 4 cords. Very impressive. Thanks


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## Jeffkrib (Mar 22, 2018)

Dropped into my local Stihl dealer on the way home from work today to talk grinders. They didn’t have any on the shelf but had a USG and Oregon 511ax in their work sho. The guy behind the counter only uses the Oregon because “on the Stihl everything is back to front and you even have to use it left handed”. The price of a USG $1300. He tried selling me a Jakmax grinder and claimed it’s a Tecomec but I’ve looked it up and it uses different castings to the Tecomec / Oregon grinders and wanted $400 for what I’d say is a Chinese knock of. 
In the absence of any better recommendations I’m going for the jolly star I posted a few posts up as it’s the best value for money here in Aus.


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## NSMaple1 (Mar 22, 2018)

Just bouncing back in about my crooked cutting issue.

I have a theory I haven't had a chance to check out yet. I since noticed or realized that the saw that chain was on (an MS360) is pretty leaky of chain oil, when it is sitting. If there is much oil left in it. I also looked at the oil adjustment screw. It was turned out pretty well all the way (I got it used, first time I have looked at it). I thought it was oiling adequately - I would look at the chain sometimes during an idling pause and be able to see a bit of oil when I pulled up on the chain. But I don't think I could ever get a fling off the nose. So, I think I have a hose that needs replaced, maybe cracked, and a prematurely worn chain (well, the teeth are 3/4 gone, but the drivers were wearing moreso). Maybe even affected bar wear, might need a new one of those too. It is riding pretty sloppy in the rails. Quite a bit of wiggle. So any little bit of sideways pull, from either hitting a knot, or a slight mis-filing, or nicking dirt, or whatever, would cause the chain to tip and go sideways pretty easy.

Anyway, I will be digging into my oiler hose before I use it again - could still be a couple months before I get around to that. But I now think crooked cutting in a lot of cases may have nothing to do with sharpness of chain or straightness of bar. Which is why it was driving me so nuts - and I likely should have picked up on it way sooner. Duh.


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 22, 2018)

Philbert said:


> *STIHL Sharpening Guide Part 3*
> 
> Philbert


Once again very well said. Maybe some will pay attention. Thanks


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## deadtrees (Mar 22, 2018)

I was filing chains today when my wife looked in the door and said "I see you are sharpening blades." I gave her a pass because she has been a good wife for 39 years and I know she was feeling bad because the puppy has been regressing on the housebreaking the last couple days.


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## Krazo (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks Philbert for uploading *the STIHL Sharpening Guide PDFs.*

I'm just getting my new Super Jolly up and running and practicing on a junk Sthil RS33 chain. I ground it with a 10 degree down angle but was not coming out with the same profile as my new RS33 chain that just came out of the box. So I setup the grinder to a 0 degree down angle. Now the profile on the junker is looking like the new chain. I did a forum search using "Sthil" and "Down Angle" and dug up this thread.

Would it be fair to say that the new chain does not come from the factory with a down angle ground into it? The guide in the Tecomec Super Jolly Manual said to put a 10 degree down angle on the tooth.

Not to say that introducing a down angle into the tooth is wrong. I'm just trying to come up with a method to get consistent results in the way I do my sharpening.

At any rate the PDFs are loaded with great information. 

Thanks Again!


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## CR888 (Apr 13, 2020)

Just do what you have done and work towards getting the cutter how you wants it to look. Just going off an arbitrary set of angle specs is in no way going to garuantee the results say of a new RS chain. Other variables need considering like tooth length, wheel profile etc. Treat angle specs as a guide or something to start with and then adjust from there. Your eyes and brain are by far your best grinding aids.


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## Philbert (Apr 13, 2020)

Krazo said:


> I'm just getting my new Super Jolly up and running and practicing on a junk Sthil RS33 chain.


Check out this thread for more tips on using your new grinder, which is very similar:





511A Grinder - Improvements / Tweaks?


I read some of the threads on tweaking the Northern Tool grinders, and thought that we ought to have one for the venerable Oregon 511A (and related Italian grinders). This model does not have the same quality issues as the knock-offs, and I know that it has been replaced by the 511AX, but there...




www.arboristsite.com







Krazo said:


> I ground it with a 10 degree down angle but was not coming out with the same profile as my new RS33 chain that just came out of the box. So I setup the grinder to a 0 degree down angle. . . .
> Would it be fair to say that the new chain does not come from the factory with a down angle ground into it?


_STIHL_ does not recommend the 10° 'down angle' for _their_ chains in their sharpening instructions, so what you found makes sense. 

Whether it is worth doing is another conversation: _Oregon_ reps have told me that it absolutely makes a difference with several of_ their_ chains, when measured in a test fixture, under controlled conditions. I have not personally noticed enough of a difference in _my_ cutting to make the extra steps (tilting the vise) worthwhile, so i don't do it. *I also use a file to touch up cutters in the field (as do many of the people that I sharpen chains for), and the instructions for many file holders specify only using a 0° angle ( or 90°‚ to the guide bar), so I try to '_grind as I file and file as i grind_'.* Going back-and-forth between 0° and 10° takes additional time and wastes a lot of cutter life.

One advantage of sharpening your own chain is that you can do what you want, or what works best for you. Grind at 27-1/2°! Use a 6° 'down angle'! Set your depth gauges at 0.027", if you want! Consider those specs given to you by the manufacturers as 'starting points', and work from there. If there is a hand-filed chain that really cuts the way that you like, place it in your grinder (with the motor 'OFF") and try to work backwards to 'copy' those angles.

Also keep in mind that there can be differences between different brands of chains, different saws, different wood, different types of cutting, etc. Experiment, figure out what works for you, and have fun with it.

Philbert


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## Krazo (Apr 13, 2020)

I just mounted the 8MM Grinding Disk on the Supper Jolly to experiment with grinding depth gauges and noticed some pretty good run out maybe about 1/16 of an inch on its outer edge. I came across a thread that talked about grinding disks not running true and possibly trying to dress the disk to true it up. What kind of run out is acceptable for a new undressed disk that's 8mm in thickness?

Well I attempted to dress the disk but began to think that maybe that's just way too much material to take off to get it trued up, the disk is probably defective. The Grinder does vibrate and pulse pretty good when it comes up to speed

So the interesting thing is that before I got the Super Jolly I purchased an Oregon 410. It came with Tecomec Grinding Disks. When I mounted the first disk it wobbled like crazy with pretty good vibration when up to speed. I mounted the remaining 2 disks that came with the 410 with the same result. I sent the unit back thinking the arbor was bent. The company I got it from told me I mounted the disks incorrectly, the 410 did not have any issues with a bent arbor. The disks were mounted correctly their is no doubt in my mind!

So am I just being a ninny here and need to learn that some disks just don't run true? Am I just getting the luck of the draw with a bad run of Tecomec Disks? The other 2 Tecomec Disks that came with the new Supper Jolly run true.

Is Tecomec known to have quality control problems with their disks?

I've studied up a little bit on the different types of grinding disks and their properties here in the forums. The question being is that if Tecomec Disks are not the greatest what would be a good (not cheap not too expensive) disk for a novice like me to purchase until I get some experience under my belt to make ant intelligent choice on grinding disks.

Thanks in advance to anyone who may have some thoughts


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## Philbert (Apr 13, 2020)

I assume that you mean 'grinding _wheel_', and are not getting creative, by mounting other types of abrasive discs on your grinder; correct?

Tecomec wheels are generally high quality in my experience. Do they seat tightly on the arbor? Any bumps on the mounting flanges? Are there paper discs ('blotters') on both sides?

The biggest problem I have had with grinding wheels were some cheap ones, where the 7/8" ID was a metric 'equivalent', that was not close enough, and the wheels wobbled dangerously out of round. Try flipping the wheel over, or rotating it slightly on the arbor before tightening the holding flange and nut - see if that makes a difference. Otherwise, could be defective.

Philbert


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## Krazo (Apr 13, 2020)

Philbert said:


> I assume that you mean 'grinding _wheel_', and are not getting creative, by mounting other types of abrasive discs on your grinder; correct?
> 
> Tecomec wheels are generally high quality in my experience. Do they seat tightly on the arbor? Any bumps on the mounting flanges? Are there paper discs ('blotters') on both sides?
> 
> ...


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## chipper1 (Apr 14, 2020)

Khntr85 said:


> Have you been physically assaulted by a grinder, as soon as someone mentions one you seem to get very excited....
> 
> I am just joking with you ted, and I do totally understand we're you are coming from, you are not the only one that had to grow up and hand file a chain...
> 
> ...


I pick both myself.


Philbert said:


> Just because you '_filed_' it, does not mean that you '_sharpened_' it!
> 
> Philbert


And just because I've sharpened it doesn't mean I filed it .
I like my grinders, but I probably have a few more files than grinders lol.


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## Philbert (Apr 14, 2020)

chipper1 said:


> And just because I've sharpened it doesn't mean I filed it .


Nice assortment!

Philbert


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## chipper1 (Apr 15, 2020)

Philbert said:


> Nice assortment!
> 
> Philbert


You never know what you're going to need lol.
I recently sold the orange tecomec 137 on the left, it was dedicated to safety chain rakers as the silvey raker grinder grinds the rakers when the chain it on a radius which misses the safety humps. On my chains I just cut those big ole shark fins right off. Just finished up a 325 semi chisel with the anti vibe humps on it, hand filed it, cleaned the gullet deep and very mild side plate angle/hook since it's for a buddy who has very little cutting experience. 
I haven't used a grinder in a couple weeks, but I have a couple damaged chains(rock, metal, lots of dirt) and I'll be using the stihl on them.
I enjoy trying them all and seeing what I like, if you buy at the right price it's not to difficult to get your money back out of equipment.


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