# Swingin round with ropes like monkeys! VS metal and leather!



## 056 kid (Mar 16, 2005)

; I know all the jazz about safe and harmless tree climbing, but letting all your weight sit on a harness and a rope is just a bit over the top. There is no skill or talent involved with climbing any more. I climb with gaffs and a safty belt. How many folks still climb like that? How many have even done it at all? Ropes have there place but i can testify that gaffs don't cause all the damage they are apparently supposed to. My boss,(a veteran of 40 years) has climbed with gaffs and a safety belt all that time and has never killed a single tree. He has had customers that have used him time and time again. I have seen big pin oaks that he topped and trimmed years ago and they looked beautiful! Any of you guys that climb primarily climb with ropes should get 110 feet in an old poplar with 2 spikes holding you off the ground and a thick belt around your ass holding you against the tree. A bit different than being strapped to a series of ropes!


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## JonnyHart (Mar 16, 2005)

*Not a great idea dude*

Oh boy! You're stirring up a hornets nest now dude.


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## Trignog (Mar 16, 2005)

Thats fine if you want to spend all your time crawling from limb to limb and spike back down that 100 ft poplar.And gaff marks do create avenues for all sorts of critters.What ever works right, just stay out of _my_ trees.


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## clearance (Mar 16, 2005)

056-I always climb with a belt and spurs. I only use my rope to position myself, or to rappel. When I rappel out of a tree I trust my rope and saddle because I constantly check them. Your tone however, is a little uppity, people here have called me a hack cause I climb with spurs, but if they climb without spurs, good for them. Each to his own, live and let live and all that good stuff.


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## dayman (Mar 16, 2005)

Smells like Troll-spirit


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## 056 kid (Mar 16, 2005)

I dont want to stir a pot, just wondering what every one thinks.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 16, 2005)

They think that yur stirring the pot. :alien:


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## 056 kid (Mar 16, 2005)

I aint a got dam troll! and if you dont believe that check on the pictures forum in a fue weeks!! It will all be there!


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## 056 kid (Mar 16, 2005)

I know!


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## tnttreeman (Mar 16, 2005)

Trolling?? I do that in a boat when I'm out fishing.


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## JonnyHart (Mar 16, 2005)

What's a troll? I've been wondering.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 16, 2005)

Search google, a dictionary (online current one with slang), or search here for what a troll is.

056, your trolling, search for DdRT, SRT, and Hack on AS and your question will be answered.

Troll


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## Reed (Mar 16, 2005)

I guess things have gone weird here.

056 'Kid', are you familiar with the rising occurance of disease epidemics in the last 25 years?

I don't like metrics, but use them in the lab...there is no choice. Also find it difficult to loosen a 14mm alternator bracket mount bolt with a 9/16th's socket, but I don't brag about trying it...mostly 'cause I don't. 

I wouldn't expect to get a job in trees if I had to climb with a 1956 David Bradley gear-drive saw, but I did that once long ago and far far away. 

I agree there's little use for me to be dressed-out in gay flourescent spandex in order to get my bicycle from here to town when cut-off blue jeans do just fine, but spikes for anything but removals should be regulated by stiff fines or buckshot. 

Now back to the end of the 20th century.


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## fpyontek (Mar 16, 2005)

oakwilt said:


> 056 'Kid', are you familiar with the rising occurance of disease epidemics in the last 25 years?



You have to be kidding. I'm not condoning spikes on prunes, but seriously, arborist type pests are not vectors in overwhelming majority of disease transmission. Furthermore if we are going to consider arborist transmission of disease, how about the fact that almost nobody sterilizes the hand and chain saws before cutting into healthy wood in the same tree or before moving on to the next tree.

Fred


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## mikecross23 (Mar 16, 2005)

Just delete this whole dang thread and ban it's originator.


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## alanarbor (Mar 16, 2005)

056 kid said:


> ;There is no skill or talent involved with climbing any more. I climb with gaffs and a safty belt. How many folks still climb like that? How many have even done it at all?



You've got a big brass set claiming that climbing without gaffs takes no skill or talent. 

You should be feeling like a cow that decided to swim the amazon about now.


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## Reed (Mar 16, 2005)

fpyontek said:


> You have to be kidding. I'm not condoning spikes on prunes, but seriously, arborist type pests are not vectors in overwhelming majority of disease transmission.
> 
> Fred



Maybe I've mistaken something. What are "arborist type pests"/?

Pests aren't restricted by definition to insect. Influenza is a "pest". Know what causes lethal yellowing in palm? 

Considering "overwhelming majority", on that scale then you know what does?

With this kind of thinking, no wonder die-offs are unparalleled. Jeez.


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## NickfromWI (Mar 16, 2005)

I say we hear him out. He said some pictures are coming. I'll wait for those.


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## fpyontek (Mar 16, 2005)

oakwilt said:


> Maybe I've mistaken something. What are "arborist type pests"/?
> 
> Pests aren't restricted by definition to insect. Influenza is a "pest". Know what causes lethal yellowing in palm?
> 
> ...



The arborist type pest I was referring to is someone referred to here as a hack.. uses spikes, etc.


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## fpyontek (Mar 16, 2005)

oakwilt said:


> I guess things have gone weird here.
> 
> 056 'Kid', are you familiar with the rising occurance of disease epidemics in the last 25 years?



Why don't you explain to me the rising occurance of disease epidemics.





oakwilt said:


> With this kind of thinking, no wonder die-offs are unparalleled. Jeez.


What kind of thinking are you referring to?
That I question the ignorance of blaming "disease epidemics",your words, on gaffs.
I also wonder about your silence when I question why arborists don't sanitize their saws.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 16, 2005)

There have been a number of oakwilt infestations that are linked to ROW work.

056- Do you work for Harry? As I said in his post, I've seen cankers and decay associated with old gaff marks. I've seen tree failure due to deacy around old topping cuts.

Would you like a discussion on tree biology, or are you set in your ways and won't listen.

As fro climbing on a rope, vs. a buck strap...well i bet you I can jump from stem to stem easier then you can


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## begleytree (Mar 16, 2005)

fpyontek said:


> I also wonder about your silence when I question why arborists don't sanitize their saws.



fpyontek,
I've been doing this work for a while, about 13-14 years now, much less than you. So to learn, I ask you: Is it necessary of sanitize saw bars and chains? I always thought that between the bar oil and heat, it would kill any pathogens. Do you have reference to material proving otherwise? I do keep a 50/50 bleach/water spray bottle on the truck for pruners and such. gaffs I don't care about, if I'm wearing them, the tree is gone anyway, so who cares if I spread anything from one piece of firewood to another. Brings up the point of handlines, lanyards and climbing rope. If they can transmit pathogens, and come into contact with fresh cuts, could this be a vector also?

-Ralph


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## Reed (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm following a controlled database of 23 recognized disease events occurring in North America. If you're not familiar with the mapped destruction crossing several economic species, you're apparently in an area of pristine health, an area I'm not at all familiar with but would certainly like to know about.

"Sanitation" is an industry practiced norm here, but then we're in the largest destruction foci known of three different but highly destructive systemic fungal parasites. The physical nature of a gaff wound is unlike any other natural or trauma-induced injury, the first place I venture to extract a hot sample of any of the above mentioned pathogens. I know, I wounded the trees to expedite my research. 

Rather than just try to adjust your thinking parameters regarding gaffing hardwoods susceptable to various airborne or other various transmitable viral or bacterial threats, I invite you to the Hill country of Texas to attempt an ascent of a centuries-old live oak with your macho set-up and see how far up you get. I won't stop you but a very concerned and vigilant tree industry most certainly would. They share much data and info, most of it confusing and some even baseless, but all agree on one very important no-no. 

Sterilization is impossible but attempted by reasonable sanitation, at least by informed and dedicated people. Excuse to use gaffs that indeed could be sterilized better than a saw chain or clutch cover isn't my point at all. Opening a door to invite a vector in is the point 56, a very serious one.

Oh, and I do use gaffs....on dead takedowns....sometimes.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 17, 2005)

056 u r a troll! you have never operated a saw or climbed a tree in your life. what are you doing here. get a life...


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2005)

oakwilt-what about when bears scratch up a tree, like from 3 feet to 8 feet from the ground with thier claws. Whatcha gonna do about that? And isn't all this tree death making you guys money from removals? I know that you and J.P.S. have probably forgotten more about trees than I'll ever know but c'mon, we all love trees, but they are still just trees. Please answer this-are you making money removing dead or dying trees or not?


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## glens (Mar 17, 2005)

056 works for (or is) Harold McPeak!


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## fpyontek (Mar 17, 2005)

oakwilt said:


> Rather than just try to adjust your thinking parameters regarding gaffing hardwoods susceptable to various airborne or other various transmitable viral or bacterial threats, I invite you to the Hill country of Texas to attempt an ascent of a centuries-old live oak with your macho set-up and see how far up you get. I won't stop you but a very concerned and vigilant tree industry most certainly would. They share much data and info, most of it confusing and some even baseless, but all agree on one very important no-no.



Oakwilt, did you actually read my original post? I never endorsed using spikes on prunes and I stated so!
Adjust my thinking? Thats quite the pompous attitude. What should be adjusted is the need for people to pass themselves off as experts, misrepresenting the facts and not backing up outraeous claims with some verifiable reference. 

for example:


oakwilt said:


> ... Influenza is a "pest". Know what causes lethal yellowing in palm?



A. Causal Agent of LY

In 1968, organisms called mycoplasmas were found to cause certain plant diseases. Many diseases previously thought to be caused by viruses have since been found to be associated with mycoplasmas or mycoplasma-like-organisms (MLO's). Evidence suggesting that LY was also caused by these single-celled organisms was reported in 1972. The presence of MLO's within the food-conducting tissues (phloem) of palm trees affected by LY and the response of palm trees to anitibiotic injections (oxytetracycline) were the two pieces of evidence which indicate that MLO's are responsible for LY.

B. Insect Vector

A planthopper identified as Myndus crudus has been shown to transmit the causal agent of LY in replicated tests at the Agricultural Research and Education Center. Myndus crudus was collected from the leaves of palms where LY was prevelant and then transferred to caged, healthy palms. In all cages where the insects were introduced, the palms developed LY. The presence of the MLO was subsequently verified with the electron microscope.

http://www.floridaplants.com/horticulture/ly.htm

By the way, mycoplasmas are bacteria.
I guess the question that begs to be asked is: do YOU Know what causes lethal yellowing in palm? 

I really dont want this to continue so I'm going to spell this out one more time so it is understood.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN USING SPIKES FOR PRUNING!

I can't say it any simpler than that.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 17, 2005)

glens said:


> 056 works for (or is) Harold McPeak!


where'd you get that?


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## fpyontek (Mar 17, 2005)

begleytree said:


> fpyontek,
> Is it necessary of sanitize saw bars and chains? I always thought that between the bar oil and heat, it would kill any pathogens. Do you have reference to material proving otherwise?
> -Ralph



Hi Ralph,
I don't think that normal saw usage produces enough heat. I know your told to boil water for 5 minutes to kill pathogens in water, that seems like a lot of heat. Below are three sites that deal with the issue of sterilization.

see:
http://nofc.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/leaflets/pruning_e.html
(excerpt below)

Pruning and Plant Health

"While pruning is often used to remove insect- and disease-infected portions of the tree, pruning can also place a tree under stress and provide wounds suitable for insect and disease entry, especially when a tree has been severely pruned. Insects such as the bronze birch borer and the carpenterworm on hardwoods and the pitch moths on conifers may attack pruned trees. Cytospora canker and Diplodia shoot blight are two diseases that attack conifers through pruning wounds on otherwise healthy trees. The risk of infection by disease organisms can be reduced by sterilizing pruning equipment after use in pruning diseased trees to remove galls, cankers, and shoot blights."

or see:

http://nofc.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/leaflets/pruning_e.html
or
http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb0983/eb0983.pdf

Fred


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## glens (Mar 17, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> glens said:
> 
> 
> > 056 works for (or is) Harold McPeak!
> ...





056 kid said:


> i can testify that gaffs don't cause all the damage they are apparently supposed to. My boss,(a veteran of 40 years) has climbed with gaffs and a safety belt all that time and has never killed a single tree. He has had customers that have used him time and time again. I have seen big pin oaks that he topped and trimmed years ago and they looked beautiful!





ismyturnnow said:


> Have you, honestly have you ever once seen a tree die from spiking. Well I'd like to answer that before I go on. I've been doing this a long time people and I have yet to see one tree die from spiking or become unhealthy from spiking. I have yet to see any tree I've topped die from spiking and Topping at the same time. ... I do good work and I get paid for it and I get called back to do more work not because the trees have died from spiking or topping because the trees are living, looking good and healthy.
> (HAROLD MCPEAK)


&nbsp;


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## Old Monkey (Mar 17, 2005)

It's funny everyone thinks this is a troll and yet they fall all overthemselves to reply. Well I for one won't be bated into reponding to this thread...DOH!


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## TimberMcPherson (Mar 17, 2005)

056 kid, your boss is in the stone age. He probably thinks hot butter is good for burns and the earth is flat. go work for, and pray that one day you to may become, a real arborist.


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## VTMechEng (Mar 17, 2005)

I am working on getting some pics of trees either dying or dead from toping. A coworker says he will be taking a bunch down next week so I hope he remembers to take some pics. They will be up as soon as, and if, I get them.


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## Reed (Mar 17, 2005)

I recall owning an 056 years ago. Somewhere on the road to and from, it slipped out and off the tailgate never to be seen again. I replaced it with a 066 and never missed it after that.


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## dayman (Mar 17, 2005)

Ol' McPeak has gotten more advertising from arbo forums for free than he's ever paid the yellow pages for 

http://www.cuttree4u.com/facts.htm


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2005)

dayman said:


> Ol' McPeak has gotten more advertising from arbo forums for free than he's ever paid the yellow pages for
> 
> http://www.cuttree4u.com/facts.htm



That's only if you think any publicity is good publicity... or have thinking of link based search prioritization (ok you tech geeks, what is it I'm trying to say here )


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

No fighting now, i have seen enough of that on this site!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 17, 2005)

Well, are you willing to listen and enguage in a discussion on tree physiology?


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## clearance (Mar 17, 2005)

Why don't one of ya''ll do a little private eye investigatin and find out who this 056 is? Contemplation on my part has caused me to agree with those who think he is what you call a "troll". Go Jim Rockford style when you have some spare time and dig for the truth. I think he's rattling everyones chain on purpose, needs to be grabbed and asked " What you doing heyahh boy, my you one o them boys from York City" I am not in any way making fun of southern accents, I think they are cool, sounds real hot when a woman talks like that.


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## chicken89 (Mar 17, 2005)

i did my first climb a few weeks ago. my boss wants me to learn how to use the ropes before i start using gaffs. using the ropes helps us learn the knots better and faster


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## jason j ladue (Mar 17, 2005)

056 kid said:


> No fighting now, i have seen enough of that on this site!


you hush now. you havent seen enough of anything. children are to be seen not heard.


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

ur a funny guy jason!


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## JonnyHart (Mar 17, 2005)

So where are these pics you spoke of? :Eye: :Eye:


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

Ask woodshop. I sent them over to the east coast this last monday, they should be here soon! I am looking foward to putting an end to all this troll nonsence!


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## jkrueger (Mar 17, 2005)

I've seen dorks in trees before. Arborists know how to deal with them. Guess some people work harder at being dumb, and some are natural. I think the originator of this thred needs to give an appology to et'al.

BTW: Spikes are the last resort and only in TDs. Unless you, like the originator of this thread is not a talented climber.   

Master Pruner,
Jack


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

ok what makes you such a smart ass. I am trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What is wrong with that. Who taught the tree geniuses any way


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## jkrueger (Mar 17, 2005)

Smart ass no, I listen and do the work. You don't allow yourself to hear, what is being said. Somehow you think being agressive in subject will get you what you really are after, right?

Mastrer Pruner,
Jack


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## JonnyHart (Mar 17, 2005)

056 kid, I've read some of your previous posts, and you do have some knowledge of tree work, particularly with saws, but I think it was a mistake for you to start this thread in the first place. It sounds like you're trying to pick a fight. The practices most of the veterans here try to get us to follow are not only industry standard, but alot safer than spiking around with a buckstrap. You should keep an open mind, and a more humble attitude.


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

Where do you get that from. I have not argued with anybody on this subject, but what am i to do when people talk down on me like i am some inferior being. I really dont appreciate that kind of treatment considering you don't know me! 
And i am curious, what am i after? If you are thinking attension, you are wrong! I am 17, i go to school, i enjoy each day seeing friends and having fun. If i needed attension, i think i would be else where!


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

Thank you for acknowledging my small amount of skill, but i do NOT want to start a fight.


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## Mange (Mar 17, 2005)

056 kid said:


> ; I know all the jazz about safe and harmless tree climbing, but letting all your weight sit on a harness and a rope is just a bit over the top. There is no skill or talent involved with climbing any more. I climb with gaffs and a safety belt. How many folks still climb like that? How many have even done it at all? Ropes have there place but i can testify that gaffs don't cause all the damage they are apparently supposed to. My boss,(a veteran of 40 years) has climbed with gaffs and a safety belt all that time and has never killed a single tree. He has had customers that have used him time and time again. I have seen big pin oaks that he topped and trimmed years ago and they looked beautiful! Any of you guys that climb primarily climb with ropes should get 110 feet in an old poplar with 2 spikes holding you off the ground and a thick belt around your ass holding you against the tree. A bit different than being strapped to a series of ropes!



For a kid going to school, should you not ask in a better manner?
I know kids are not as polite as when I went to school, but a tip:
Ask nice!
You will never find a place with more knowledge about the tree industry than collected in the persons that post here.
Learn a bit, then test and argue after.
Try not to tic everybody off.
I must say that I rally do not care who or what you are, but if you want to learn ask for facts make an opinion based on the facts + experience.

Glens, I think you solved it.

We now know a bit. 
Why don't you fill in the blanks 056, that would ease the minds with some here.


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## 056 kid (Mar 17, 2005)

ok but it's time to go home. later!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> It fits. Both user list VA. for location too.
> 
> Dan



Hey i said it first! Why does Glens get all the credit!



> Posted by JPS-
> 056- Do you work for Harry? As I said in his post, I've seen cankers and decay associated with old gaff marks. I've seen tree failure due to deacy around old topping cuts.


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## jason j ladue (Mar 18, 2005)

john's right. he got it first. i just have this wierd thing about reviewing the thread backwards... :angel: but this is _not _ mcpeak.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> but this is _not _ mcpeak.



Harry Jr.


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## Mange (Mar 18, 2005)

Sorry about that.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 18, 2005)

Mange said:


> Sorry about that.



I feel better now


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## jason j ladue (Mar 18, 2005)

Harry Jr.[/QUOTE said:


> maybe, but this is not senior for sure.


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## rb_in_va (Mar 18, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> maybe, but this is not senior for sure.



How do you know?


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## jason j ladue (Mar 18, 2005)

we have been engaged in a bit of...well, let's call it "an exchange of opinion" via PM- and suffice it to say- this is not an adult. what we have here is a (typically) excitable teen. based on his forum posts and the content of the messages i have been receiving from him (largely profanity, slurrs, and talk of violence), i was ready to write him off as a loss to humanity-BUT, he sent me a PM this morning that makes me think there may be hope for him (and us all)yet...good job kid, keep it up. humility will get you a long way in the world.


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## Mange (Mar 18, 2005)

I think that this kid, needs a mentor. How about that, up for it Jason?

Just kidding around a bit.


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## underwor (Mar 18, 2005)

Have you folks noticed how good some people are at BAITING others in the discussions? I guess we all have to be MASTERS at something!!


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## jason j ladue (Mar 18, 2005)

okay. i cant resist this one. too perfect. let's see here. i have heard of a master conductor, master head chef, a master arborist... so what do you suppose a persons title might be if he were a master of baiting?


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## Mange (Mar 18, 2005)

MASTER BLASTER

I just could not stop myself 

Where did I put those pills??


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## Trignog (Mar 18, 2005)

metal and leather! 

Sounds like your talking about your night life, the Freddy Mercury, Rob Halford way! hahaha


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## clearance (Mar 18, 2005)

Trignog that is a hilarious post. On a serious note, one of the worst moments in rock was when Rob Halford came out. I can never listen to rockin after midnight again the same, ruined a good song. Rockin after midnight till the dawn.... yeah with some guy Rob, you homo.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 18, 2005)

One's sexual orientation has little to do with the music, unless that's the way the musician planned it to be.

Homophobes!


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## treeseer (Mar 19, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> we have been engaged in a bit of...well, let's call it "an exchange of opinion" via PM- and suffice it to say- this is not an adult. what we have here is a (typically) excitable teen. , he sent me a PM this morning that makes me think there may be hope for him ...good job kid, keep it up.


Good job by you, Jason, hearing someone, who is still developing, until their head levels out. The rest of you guys who are so quick to beat down someone who obviously wants and needs to learn--apply a little patience, tolerate a little bravado while you beat the anti-spike drum. I'm on my 3rd and 4th teenagers in the house and have learned that if you have no tolerance you will get nothing but rebellion.

Re lethal yellowing, I'm no palm guy but even if insect-frond vectors have been identified, that does not mean that spikes definitely cannot spread disease. Plus they do make palm trunks ugly.

Re spike damage in gereral, I'll again attach this documentation of a 50" oak's death due to spikes:

The second oak majestically defined the edge of the historic district in Fuquay-Varina. Two years before, the Capital Trees Program had given it an Historic Tree Award. The lightning damage seemed just slightly wider than the first, so the arborist started treating the wound as before.

**Below some old pruning cuts halfway down, a portion of bark over 4’ square was detached. Curiously, it wasn’t near the lightning wound! Insects had entered wounds made by climbing spikes and eaten away the cambium.**

That climber must have dug in his spikes to keep his balance as he cut, with Great Expectations that those little holes couldn’t possibly hurt that great big tree. 

Added to the lightning wound, this human-made injury put the total dead bark area over one-third of the circumference. Despite insect control, fertilization, and, belatedly, mulch, the prognosis was poor. Little scar tissue grows, and half the crown is pale. The tree’s useful years were over, clearly due to the use of climbing spikes. 

(The tree was taken down a year later. AC bill went way up after that.)


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## Trignog (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm no homophobe MB. Just lookin over some old Priest titles, they have a whole new meaning now. "You've got another thing coming"! hahaha no kidding!


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 19, 2005)

I hear ya.


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## Mange (Mar 20, 2005)

056 kid said:


> ok but it's time to go home. later!



I thought there would be more?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 13, 2005)

056kid, you need a job this Summer? We could talk about the duties and responsibilities, but using spikes will be a minor component of the climbing. If you ever wish to have a job with any company, other than Flintstones Tree Care, it will likely be the same. We'd all really like to see you performing to your full potential. Your skill will stagnate if your climbing future remains dependant on using spikes. 

Becoming a good climber on spikes is not very difficult, like riding a bike with training wheels, and it imposes technical limitations (per JP, jumping from stem to stem, or footlocking). Have you ever done a long limbwalk with just a leather strap and spikes? Doubtful. Man, you will love the freedom. It's not harder to climb spikeless, except in the beginning, and only then because you naturally want to default to methods you used with spikes. Once you get over that, there's a whole new climbing world ahead, and a far wider potential to be hired by other companies.


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## 056 kid (Apr 13, 2005)

You are the first one who has actually made using ropes sound ok. Most others brag upon it like they are going to sell the equiptment which has been smelted from "old school" spikes to make beaners and fancy gadgets. I am by all means willing to try new things


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## arborman (Apr 13, 2005)

_I know all the jazz about safe and harmless tree climbing, but letting all your weight sit on a harness and a rope is just a bit over the top. There is no skill or talent involved with climbing any more. I climb with gaffs and a safty belt. How many folks still climb like that? How many have even done it at all?_


if youve never done it who are you to say that there is no talent in it? not many people still climb with gaffs and safty belts because they know there are more effective ways of doing it.. which will be faster, safer for both the climber and the tree. i would like to see you do an arial rescue with your spikes and belt. What would you do go up there cut their belt and toss them out of the tree? 
if i were you i would give some serious thought to learning new ways . allot of people are catching on to the idea of modern arbor culture.. and once home owners see that they have choices , either the guy who puts little holes all the way up every lead of a tree , and takes 8 hours to deadwood it . or the guy who can do it with no holes at all in allot less time and even gets into the tips to get all of the deadwood and not just what can be walked out on with gaffs. 

ohh and look at MCpeaks site. click on the firewood part to find out why his wood costs more then the rest of the worlds. *lol its not as good as his other section .. but it got a chuckle out of me. maybe I'm just easily amused.


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## 056 kid (Apr 13, 2005)

Read my previous post and see that i AM willing to learn "new ways".


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## NickfromWI (Apr 13, 2005)

arborman said:


> ...not many people still climb with gaffs and safty belts




Unfortunately this is simply not true. We here at arboristsite are NOT in the majority...yet.

love
nick


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## arborman (Apr 13, 2005)

yea your right on that one nick. I just needed to think outside the box for a min there *lol . in my mind though when i think of an arborist i think of people who know trees and know them well. And who are always changing ways with the times to keep up with the latest and greatest in the industry. 
but i do realize that what i think of and what really is could be very different. 

056 kid do things the way you want to do them. Just keep in mind that working aloft can be dangerous and all it takes is one misshap for someone to get seriously injured up in a tree. and someday you may be the only one there to get them down. you should have a plan to put into action one way or another.


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## 056 kid (Apr 13, 2005)

will do. To me honest one of the biggest thing that keeps me from getting into the new shcool more is money! I have been climbing with pole spikes for crying out loud!


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## treeseer (Apr 13, 2005)

056 kid said:


> will do. To me honest one of the biggest thing that keeps me from getting into the new shcool more is money! I have been climbing with pole spikes for crying out loud!


If you're not making enough to buy basic gear then you are either underpaid or...


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## clearance (Apr 13, 2005)

056-I spent most of my money on booze, broads and gambling-the rest I just wasted. Get a hardhat with a mesh screen and earmuffs, decent belt and spurs, steelcore lanyard and a couple of new ropes. And some sawpants for when you are back on the ground.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 13, 2005)

clearance said:


> 056-I spent most of my money on booze, broads and gambling-the rest I just wasted.



Hahahahahaaa!!! I thought I was the only one!


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## P_woozel (Apr 13, 2005)

Kid who are you, are there more like you somewhere? Oh, one more thing, does this river go to Antry? :umpkin:


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## 056 kid (Apr 13, 2005)

You wanna translate that for me?


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

Woozel, you're not pickin on our willing student, are you?

I have to respect 056 in coming out and tellin us he's a spiker. Here, saying that will get you flamed every time. But he's hangin in there, letting us know he's willing to try new methods, and why he hasn't up til now. Young Dawg is just here like the rest of us, wanting to learn and advance. 

Most of us didn't start out having an extensive online panel of teachers shelling out free information just because they cared. 056 has stepped up so he doesn't have to grind through years under his current mentor and live in that technically isolated shell.

I'd like to see this cat making at least $200 a day, getting some top-end gear and maybe thinking about certification or an arboriculture program. I don't think an early talent should have to suffer. This job can be endless joy and 056 clearly wants to fly with the monkeys. We're servin it up on a silver platter, he's hungry. We'd like him to represent our industry well and he wants to come home safe, and intact every night. I think we're working OK together, so far.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 14, 2005)

056 kid, read Shigo, A.L. (1991). Modern Arboriculture. Shigo & Trees Associates, Durham, New Hampshire, USA, maby you wont get such a hard time.

All i wana say is that i hope your tyed in twice, even if its 2 flip lines, or you wont last till your 18 bro.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

That's a good reference.

056, when you get into where ascending a rope is as fast as spiking up a tree, you'll get into some basic gear, cool stuff like this fab throwbag from JimNZ's country.

The amount of gear you'll need for conversion to spikeless would be:
1) rope
2) throwbag
3) throwline and stow device
4) bigshot and pole
5) Smurfies

That's pretty much it, if you stay old-school. If you want to move into the future and skip a couple years of learning curve, you'll also need

6) dual handled ascenders and a backup tress cord
7) descent device of your choosing
8) 11 mm rope over a 13

These are not in order. I'd certainly put the smurfies first. Without actually adding numbers, an off the hip guesstimate is 400 or 500 bucks. Seems huge to you, but this is part of a week's income. These are the tools of the trade, and they pay themselves off in security, safety, efficiency and feeling more like a pro. There's a lot to be said for that, how you feel once you're climbing more swiftly and safely and positioning with exactness and precise control. It's big fun.


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> The amount of gear you'll need for conversion to spikeless would be:
> 1) rope
> 2) throwbag
> 3) throwline and stow device
> ...


 I got 2-4 but rarely need them.
then there are the tools of the Older School of spikeless climbing:
1. 32', or better, 40' Ladder 
2. Polesaw

Climb to the top of the ladder, tie in w lanyard.
TIe snap end of rope into monkeyfiist, toss to a good branch. Or if branches are too thick to toss, push up knot with polesaw.
Pull monkeyfist down with poesaw, tie in.
Bodythrust up.
Repeat.

Sounds tedious, but with this method you can beat the majority of climbers who fling their throwballs, on most trees. I've seen the trees in Lynchburg; you do not need the bigshot on most of them. Keep It Simple Stuff.


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## pmuscato (Apr 14, 2005)

Swinging around like monkey's. It boils my blood when people compare me to a monkey. M I alone on this.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 14, 2005)

I'd rather be compared to a squirrel...


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## vharrison2 (Apr 14, 2005)

You crack me up


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

pmuscato said:


> It boils my blood when people compare me to a monkey.


Their words are like water; let your back be like a duck's.

Monkeys are intelligent and able climbers--I try to thank the idiots who say that, for the compliment. After all they are clueless on technique and fearful of heights, so they should be excused if what they say is not astute.

I'd much rather be likened to a primate than a rodent; mb you got empathy for skwerls now?


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Heck ya! I've never seen a squirrel throw feces!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 14, 2005)

Really we're more like spyders, hanging off a rope and all.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

I forgot to mention new-school would have spliced end(s) on their climbing and rigging lines. This speeds a lot of ops just by not having to repeatedly tie and untie. Some guys are unfamiliar with a monkey's fist, but to clip a steel biner onto an eye, it becomes an instant, less bulky 'monkey's fist'.


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## treeseer (Apr 14, 2005)

Good point, TM.

Are you gathering your data for the NEWTS meeting in August?


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## clearance (Apr 14, 2005)

About spliced ends-why not tie a rope snap at the very end of your rigging line and one about 2-3' from the end of your climbing line. Snap on, tie a bowline to rappel. Loop around, snap back on the line and lower away branches.


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## tophopper (Apr 14, 2005)

Tree Machine said:


> The amount of gear you'll need for conversion to spikeless would be:
> 1) rope
> 2) throwbag
> 3) throwline and stow device
> ...



When I made the conversion, it was long before the big shot. And I wrapped my throwline around a stick. The good ole days!  

Smurfies? gloves I assume. ?


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 14, 2005)

When I took the crazy sports reporter for KARE 11 [what is his name...???] climbing I gave him a pair of grippy gloves. He looked at them and asked me how many Smurfs they had to skin to make the glvoes. The name stuck.


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## clearance (Apr 14, 2005)

056-climb with spurs if you want to, but climb safe. If you want to learn how to spurless climb, thats great, but get what you need first. Sounds like you do removals mostly, so do I. Removals with spurs are easy no talent or skill jobs I hear. I guess everyone thinks its easy to climb big firs heavily overhanging a 25kv three phase and cut and push big branches away from the line.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

I was wondering how the Smurfie thing got started. Thanks, Tom.

Smurfies, rubber-palmed cotton gloves, specifically, blue. The green ones arent called smurfies, and they're all called ugly gloves. They make em in red, but it sorta makes you look like you've got two terrible, flowing wrist wounds, if ya know what I mean. The red ones have never caught on in popularity. 

Side note on the Smurfies. I was at the TCIA Expo in Baltimore a couple years ago, and had a couple dozen pair of Smurfs in my pack, giving them to any Arboristsite guy I met on the floor. There was a footlock race, and my wife asked me if I was going to do it. "No, I don't think so." and she let me have it, "Why not, ya scared? Huh? Are you wimpin out? What are ya, a Poosie-boy? Huh? you a ????? or what?"

My wife has such a special way with me, ya know?

"You're not gonna climb for my honor and my glory....?"

So I sign up. My turn came up and I put on a pair of smurfies and got geared up. I heard some onlooker say, "I wonder why that guy uses gloves?" I looked over and said, "hey, bubba, this is why." I pulled myself up about ten feet, without using my feet, stopped, looked the guy in the eye and released one hand. As I hung there, feet dangling, holding my full weight with the grip of a single hand I said to all the onlookers, "Just try this with bare hands", and then I slid slowly down the rope, still just the one hand.

The point is, the grip you get is really quite amazing, even on wet rope. Every now and then I'll do a climb without them and I pay in diminished climbing performance and increased pain.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 14, 2005)

That makes me want to try out some gloves!


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## Tree Machine (Apr 14, 2005)

It's hard to go back once you use Smurfies, ESPECIALLY if you enjoy climbing in the rain. When your hands are soaked for hours, they're really soft and susceptible to injury. Smurfs help a lot. On the backside is cotton, so they breath well when the weather is hot. 

The Sherrill catalog has had the same testimonial from the same cat going on almost 7 years (p 48) that pretty much says it all.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Wear gloves, you will perform better.


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## Tree Machine (Apr 15, 2005)

The Ayatolla has spoken.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 17, 2005)

treeseer said:


> I got 2-4 but rarely need them.
> then there are the tools of the Older School of spikeless climbing:
> 1. 32', or better, 40' Ladder
> 2. Polesaw
> ...





Bro that sound like a bit of a mission!
You ever cut your rope with the pole saw?

Heres a idea, get a small karabina and clip your throw ball to the end of your climbing line knot throw that for the branch. Its even easer if you have a spliced rope

Do you use the pole-saw when climbing?

What happens if you cant get the work truck anywhere near the work site, you have to carry the ladder, pole-saw...

Most defiantly the 'Harrison rocket' throw ball is the best


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 17, 2005)

What do you reckon?


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## jason j ladue (Apr 17, 2005)

i reckon yer a groundie...


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 17, 2005)

Who me? Na mate i don't use a pole saw, was asking treeseer about it, and advising him about the rope-throwball method.


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## treeseer (Apr 17, 2005)

Bro that sound like a bit of a mission!
*It's routine once you get used to it, and faster on many trees.

You ever cut your rope with the pole saw?
* Never. Grab the knot/biner with the hook, not the blade.  

Heres a idea, get a small karabina and clip your throw ball to the end of your climbing line knot throw that for the branch. Its even easer if you have a spliced rope
*Great idea, I often do that.

Do you use the pole-saw when climbing?
* on most trees it saves time and effort and makes cuts that ar eimpossible to reach. Also use it to pull branches to within handsaw or secateur range. I'd rarely use a polesaw if it didn't have a telescoping handle.

What happens if you cant get the work truck anywhere near the work site, you have to carry the ladder
*Then it's time for the bigshot, or fling like TreeCo.


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## Jim1NZ (Apr 18, 2005)

oh yea, choice, cheers for that


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## SRT-Tech (Oct 18, 2006)

bumping the thread up, just for sh ts and giggles.........

i dont climb with spurs OR rope!!!! i use an ancient west indies technique of humming loudly, until i can elevate myself upwards......


:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:


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## waldini (Oct 18, 2006)

as clearance said at the start live and let live wot eva you have to do to get the job done.fair play to you for telling us how you work.

i admit i dont fancy 110 foot poplar no rope all credit to you. i am not saying i agree with your ways. each to there own. :greenchainsaw: all the best mate.


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## Doctor Dave (Oct 19, 2006)

oakwilt said:


> Maybe I've mistaken something. What are "arborist type pests"/?
> 
> Climbers pruning with gaffs?


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## Thillmaine (Oct 24, 2006)

*????ing idiot*

056 Kid you are fighting scientifically proven evidence. Wait maybe you dont know what scientifically proven is, your small brain cant comprehend scientific. Regardless you are an idiot that all I have to say:spam:


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## rebelman (Oct 25, 2006)

Humming loudly works!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 25, 2006)

SRT-Tech said:


> bumping the thread up, just for sh ts and giggles.........



Come with me sir, you are being charged with aiding and abetting a troll


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## 056 kid (Oct 25, 2006)

im starting a job tomorrow with asplundh as a climber.


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## PUclimber (Oct 25, 2006)

Good luck with Asplundh. They are a lot of old school guys atleast around here. Most of them are rough characters that have been through a lot of divorces and are missing teeth. I don't condone spiking on prune jobs but i've seen it done and spiking a tree leaves openings for pests and diseases that would otherwise not be able to penetrate the deep enough into the tree to do damage without an opening.


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## Jim1NZ (Oct 25, 2006)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Come with me sir, you are being charged with aiding and abetting a troll



Na, let them go hard JP. Let this be a off topic thread with no relevance, a thread for people to argue freely with out ruining other good threads.

Just make sure you guys that have nothing worthwhile to say post in this thread ONLY! 

:deadhorse:


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## Eagle1 (Oct 25, 2006)

Who the hell uses gaffs to prune or trim. Gaffs are for removals only.


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## mightyoak (Oct 25, 2006)

for your information there only (2) things in trees, squirrels and nuts, and I'm no squirrel..


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## Grizzly (Oct 30, 2006)

mightyoak said:


> for your information there only (2) things in trees, squirrels and nuts, and I'm no squirrel..



yet when your driveing down the road and the other guy (trolls) are hacking everthing in sight, don't you think to your self, "why, how in the hell did they get the job. They are better off being squirls than arborist.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 31, 2006)

Grizzly said:


> yet when your driveing down the road



Then he's a loose nut.

Ekka asked for irrelavent posts 

Are you sure i should not delete the entire thread


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## (WLL) (Oct 31, 2006)

fpyontek said:


> The arborist type pest I was referring to is someone referred to here as a hack.. uses spikes, etc.


hacks or cutters ar not arborists


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## rebelman (Oct 31, 2006)

056 kid said:


> letting all your weight sit on a harness and a rope is just a bit over the top.
> 
> wow 56. wow.


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## Jim1NZ (Nov 1, 2006)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Then he's a loose nut.
> 
> Ekka asked for irrelavent posts
> 
> Are you sure i should not delete the entire thread



Better in one place than all over the site JP


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## Grizzly (Nov 9, 2006)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Then he's a loose nut.
> 
> Ekka asked for irrelavent posts
> 
> Are you sure i should not delete the entire thread



It's your gig, but dosen't it throw you off your rocker if you hear another company working at a job you just bid?


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## rubberducky (Nov 21, 2006)

jason j ladue said:


> 056 u r a troll! you have never operated a saw or climbed a tree in your life. what are you doing here. get a life...



sorry to break you heart jason but ive seen him do it.


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## old timer (Nov 25, 2006)

*are we going back to the stone age*

yes i used to climb free no spikes and no ropes then i got wise/now with ropes and thought /work is better and safer and a tree without hundreds of needlles wounds yours. old timer


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## Blinky (Nov 25, 2006)

Chalk me up on the monkey side of the board... I just like it better. Gaffs are good tools though and work better than rope sometimes. I'm not gonna gaff a tree I want to live though.


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## snarf (Nov 25, 2006)

056 kid said:


> My boss,(a veteran of 40 years) has climbed with gaffs and a safety belt all that time and has never killed a single tree. He has had customers that have used him time and time again. I have seen big pin oaks that he topped and trimmed years ago and they looked beautiful!



Great post! 
I have not read all the replies but I would say right off that for Kid's boss, the trees he has spiked, have been in his care for many years. 

So, is'nt he really practicing BONSI??? (except for the spiking part)

Hey, those bonsi guys do horrible things to trees in order to force them to conform to a look that they want. but the trees survive and are, indeed healthy and strong. 

I think this is the 'root' of the issue between topping/spiking & 'poor tree work'.

the biggest reason to not top trees is because if the 'treatment' is not continued throughout the many years of the trees life, the tree will become a safety issue as well as an example of work done to it which leads to decay/ failures, & a tree which does not live as long as another similar tree which is pruned in a way which is compatable with it's biology.


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## CwbyClmr (Dec 4, 2006)

hey kid, good luck to you and keep an open mind. I've only been climbing for about 4 or 5 years and have used spikes a handfull of times. I learned the old school way of one rope prusik tie in, no split tails or anything. Takedowns and all never used spikes until this year. I love them but only use them for the takedowns. I'm not knocking anything or anyone but I've recently learned new ways of climbing with ropes, ascenders and micropulleys, I love it, its much easier. But just keep learning you'll get there.
Good Luck!!!!!


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## Grizzly (Dec 17, 2006)

I almost graduated myself from spikes to ropes. I started to repell down branches that seem dependable. I had my dad working for me for a few days and he thought that i was crazy repelling with a 1/2'' rope instead of spiking down. the less holes the better. Itry not to put any but in some cases theres just no other option; especially in a small back yard.


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## Treetom (Dec 29, 2006)

*Just some thoughts.*

This is an interesting post. I use a saddle and gaffs on most jobs as I have for 25 years. I never even got used to using a second, verticle rope like they use in the split tail climbing system. Just too much rope to deal with. But as I've aged and gained experience I always remember Murphy's Law: "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong." So, my compromise between all ropes, or spurs and saddle only, will be a another safety line in addition to my lanyard. Or I can just hire a younger climber. Nah!


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