# superlight .223



## spencerhenry (Aug 9, 2006)

i spend alot of time scouting for my favorite pastime. archery hunting trophy bull elk. being in western colorado, the areas i hunt require alot of distance and elevation gain on foot. i am also a die hard coyote hunter, as such i almost always carry a rifle, but am getting tired of carrying an 11# gun up over passes a 12500'. so while hiking out the other day i decided that what i need is a tiny .223 rifle. 16.5" barrel, short buttstock made out of aluminum or magnesium, single shot probably, or maybe repeater. was thinking of an xp-100 with a buttstock and legal length barrel.
anybody know of such a creature, or anyone who might want to build such a toy? my goal is to be under 5# with a scope.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 9, 2006)

You might want to give some consideration to a bullpup design.

http://www.barreledaction.com/babulform.html


I think they tend to be lighter, and with the right stock (think hollow fiberglass or carbon fiber), could be just the ticket for you. You sure don't need 11 pounds to 'tame' the .223!


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## eric_271 (Aug 9, 2006)

NHM 90 might work aka ak47. Chrome barrel any butt stock you want to put on it, super light with a .223 breech and it will repeat a lot of times if your aim is off a little. I like to follow the dust tracks right up to the target. Happy hunting.


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## coveredinsap (Aug 10, 2006)

Most of the lightweight 'survival' or 'backpacker' rifles that I've seen such as those made by Marlin are in .22lr (maybe .22 Magnum?) but not in an actual centerfire rifle round such as .223.

Here's one made by Henry @ 2.5 lbs:
http://www.gunshopfinder.com/Henry/henryUSsurvival.asp

.22 long rifle isn't a bad round. I've seen good sized deer dropped with a well-placed .22 lr round from a rifle....and there is a wide variety of ammunition to choose from.

Looks like there are a few in .223 after all:

* The Henry U.S. Survival. This takedown .22 weighs just 2½ pounds. It breaks down and all parts fit in the hollow stock.
* Springfield Armory M-6 Scout. This fold-down model is also very compact and offers both .22 and .410 barrels.
* KEL-TEC SU-16 Rifle. This gas-operated, self-loading rifle in .223 Rem. also features a fold-down stock for easy storage. The stock holds spare magazines and the forend folds down to form a bipod for increased accuracy.
* Marlin 70PSS Papoose. This stainless, seven-shot, semi-auto .22 offers a takedown barrel and synthetic stock. It comes in a padded carrying case.
* New England Firearms’ Versa-Pack. This rifle has interchangeable barrels that easily swap over from .22 rimfire to .410 shotgun.
* Savage 24F Predator. This over/under combination gun is available with a .22 Hornet, .223, .17 HMR or .30/30 over a 12-gauge barrel or .22 LR, .22 Hornet, .223 or .17 HMR over a 20-gauge barrel. The takedown action makes storage easy.
* Winchester M-9422 and Marlin M-1894PG. Lightweight lever guns like these offer lots of magazine capacity and the versatility of using either birdshot loads or standard bullets.
* Thompson/Center’s G2 Contender. This single-shot is known for accuracy. It comes in a number of different caliber options, is easily scoped and stows effortlessly.

http://www.kel-tec.com/su16b.html


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## clearance (Aug 10, 2006)

coveredinsap said:


> .22 long rifle isn't a bad round. I've seen good sized deer dropped with a well-placed .22 lr round from a rifle....and there is a wide variety of ammunition to choose from.


There is a reason why rimfires are banned for hunting deer, I guess it has something to do with the fact that not all shots are well placed. Deer have been known to suffer after being wounded by a .22. The same shot with a 30-30 or other centerfire with a 150 grain instead of 40 grain bullet is going to cause more shock and blood loss. Be humane in your hunting.


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## klickitatsacket (Aug 10, 2006)

have you thought about a bolt action pistol in .223? A Savage 516 BSS in .223 and a bipod is a great combination for taking yotes. the 510F Striker can be had in .22-250, .243 and .308. These are great guns anvery accurate Also they are only about 5#


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 10, 2006)

OR a Thompson/Contender. You could go .223 or maybe .30-30. Accurate. Enough power. Lightweight.


And for fun, you can get a .45-70 barrel for plinking!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 10, 2006)

Hmmmm. Now that I'm thinking along the .45-70 line, I think I have solved your problem! What you need is one of these:


http://www.magnumfilms.com/movies/BFR02_trans_sv3_1.mov




Uh, I mean the GUN! The GUN, man! Leave them girls alone!


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## ASD (Aug 10, 2006)

try a 
ruger Minny 14 with a synthetic stock
AR15 flat top
and i think Remington makes something with a carbon fiber stock and barrel ??


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## sawinredneck (Aug 10, 2006)

Actually SAPs idea of the KEL-TEC SU 16 isn't a half bad one!! Neat little rifle!!! I am not a big fan of the .223 myself, yes it has it purpouse, but a .22 works for most of it and is a lot cheaper to shoot. Need something larger than that, .243 gets my vote!!! BTW: if you shoot a deer in KS with a rimfire, it's jail time!! Need to look again, but I think the .223 is even considerd too small for that. .223 would be great for 'oytees, but I prefer no. 4 buck out of a gauge, lots easier to hit a moving target with more projectiles. I guess I'm lazy:hmm3grin2orange: 
Andy


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## CaseyForrest (Aug 10, 2006)

I had a Marlin 17hmr. That thing was wickedly accurate out to at least 200 yards. I originally bought it to shoot yotes, but never got around to it and ended up selling it.

Me and a friend used to sit 75 yds out and pick off red winged black birds, one shot.

Its illegal here to shot deer with .22 and smaller. Also illegal to hunt with any type of rifle below about midway of the lower penissula. Shotgun and Muzzleloader are it.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 10, 2006)

CaseyForrest said:


> Also illegal to hunt with any type of rifle below about midway of the lower penissula. Shotgun and Muzzleloader are it.



Whyzzaat? Too many people?


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## CaseyForrest (Aug 11, 2006)

I believe so, to many hunting, and when your round has the ability to travel up to a mile.....

Here hunting on private land will cost you unless the land is yours. Public land you will be sharing a tree. You can have a conversation with a stranger and not have to speak loud enough to worry about spooking the deer!!


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## 046 (Aug 11, 2006)

yeoww... I know it's not a .223, but check this ti gun out...

Model 700 Titamium $2385

Calibers: 260, 270, 7mm08, 308

"Every ounce counts, especially at the end of a hunter’s day. That's we offer the lightest standard production rifle on the market—the Model 700 Titanium Ultimate Lightweight. Rivaling custom-made rifles at a fraction of the cost, the Model 700 Titanium delivers unmatched all-weather performance and superb accuracy in a remarkably light, compact package."

http://www.outdoorsupplies.co.nz/Centerfire.html


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## eric_271 (Aug 13, 2006)

ASD said:


> try a
> ruger Minny 14 with a synthetic stock
> AR15 flat top
> and i think Remington makes something with a carbon fiber stock and barrel ??



I had a chance to buy one, stainless barrel, stainless collapsable stock and stainless scope perfect condition for $400 and passed it up. I kick myself in the azz over that.


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## coveredinsap (Aug 14, 2006)

clearance said:


> There is a reason why rimfires are banned for hunting deer, I guess it has something to do with the fact that not all shots are well placed. Deer have been known to suffer after being wounded by a .22. The same shot with a 30-30 or other centerfire with a 150 grain instead of 40 grain bullet is going to cause more shock and blood loss. Be humane in your hunting.



Make no mistake....I never said it was 'legal', nor did I advocate hunting with such a (illegal) round. We're talking survival rifles/situations when the least of your concerns is breaking game laws. I said that I've seen it done before....meaning that the .22lr can very easily take rather large game in a survival situation, i.e. .22lr is an excellent choice for a lightweight survival/pack rifle.


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## ShoerFast (Aug 14, 2006)

.22LR's are about useless on elk.

.223 comes real close to legal for deer, but bull-elk are a little shock proof, and there brain-bucket is too thick for a rim-fire if the angle is anything less then say 45 Deg.

You would eat very well with a .223 , the ammo is light , brass can be found anywhere.

The only other consideration would be having something "hunt-legal" .

I like my TCR-83 , with a Thomson Center .223 barrel, it drives tacks better the my 7MM-08 bull barrel from Ackley.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 14, 2006)

Some of you folks might want to consider re-reading the original post.


He's looking for a COYOTE gun to carry with him while he scouts for BOW HUNTING elk.


He didn't ask about a deer or elk gun.


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## ShoerFast (Aug 14, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Some of you folks might want to consider re-reading the original post.
> 
> 
> He's looking for a COYOTE gun to carry with him while he scouts for BOW HUNTING elk.
> ...




It would stand clear that the rifle would need a dual-purpose, as its clear that he is not shooting at yotties while scouting elk, unless he scouts areas he wont hunt?


Anyone that has scouted areas like he is talking about, anything as simple as a rock slide can make your day trip a survival situation, .223 being my first choice, less then 5# more then ideal.

Here is a little story from near the area he is talking about.

A few years ago, a hiker slipped near St. Mary's Glaser, the fall tipped a rock onto his lower leg.

There was no way for him to move the rock, or free his leg, he did have a Swiss-army knife, and severed his leg below his knee instead of freezing to death. He was out to his truck and to help for the story to be in the next mornings paper, he did believe he would have died if he hadn't.

My opt, would be to shoot 3 times, once every minute, (wait 5 and repeat) the local distress single before I would wop my leg off.

It is not common, but some have got stuck in snow storms, maby a little trip with Alferd Packer and you would understand?
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/alfred_packer/index.html


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## 361kid (Aug 14, 2006)

It's not cheap and it's not a .223 but the remington titanium is an amazing rifle. .260 rem or 7mm-08 are great dual purpose deer/coyote rounds. You may also want to take a look at the new ruger scout rifle. It has the forward scope mount, weighs around 5lbs, and comes in .243, 7mm-08, .308, or any of the WSM rounds i believe.


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 14, 2006)

ShoerFast said:


> It would stand clear that the rifle would need a dual-purpose, as its clear that he is not shooting at yotties while scouting elk, unless he scouts areas he wont hunt?




Or unless he's scouting off season? At any rate, a coyote gun is what he asked about. What that would have to do with Packer is anybody's guess.


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## ShoerFast (Aug 14, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> Or unless he's scouting off season? At any rate, a coyote gun is what he asked about. What that would have to do with Packer is anybody's guess.



Elk are nothing like Eastern Deer, (elk are none territorial) if there is a shot, or anything they don't like, there gone. Elk fallow the grass, and if your not scouting close to when your hunting, (eg: looking for last years raked trees or rubs) most scouting is done to find the huge bulls, and there were you find them, you wouldn't shoot around your scouting area, I wouldn't anyway.

Your point about re-reading the org. post sounded condescending to me. To include a link about Alford would maybe help you think what I thought about that,,,,,,, If Alford had a 5# .223 , maybe he could have eat elk instead of people?


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 14, 2006)

I guess I'll just leave it to the person who asked to decide what he wants to use a gun for, rather than decide for him what he SHOULD use it for.


Oh, perhaps you missed the part in the Packer story where they were all armed?


BTW, I'm originally from the west - I know more about elk than eastern deer.


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## ShoerFast (Aug 14, 2006)

BlueRidgeMark said:


> I guess I'll just leave it to the person who asked to decide what he wants to use a gun for, rather than decide for him what he SHOULD use it for.
> 
> 
> Oh, perhaps you missed the part in the Packer story where they were all armed?
> ...



Well now, then I must digress, as I only hoped to add my .02 cents worth any way, but with area experts aloft, hell spit!

But it dose prove my guess that it was a condescending statement!


Packer has a ton of stories, one that they were just out a few hours and held up to see what the weather would do, and Alford was all ready hungry.

BTW, this first of September, will be my 10th year as a Certified Colorado Big Game Guide, and the elk crowd here would love to hear your expertise on the subject!


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## musch (Aug 15, 2006)

I know that you COULD kill a deer with a 22lr, but it is definately not allowed for hunting in these parts.

I shot a racoon right through the head at 20 yards with a 22lr, and it still took 2 more rounds to finish him off. 

I think the smallest I would hunt deer around here would be 30-30.

Just my $.02


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## spencerhenry (Aug 19, 2006)

not sure who posted it but yes, read the original post. i am looking for a super lightweight .223 for shooting coyotes.

i DO shoot coyotes where i scout for deer and elk. i have killed coyotes the night before opening day of a deer and elk season, and during. the elk dont care, they dont leave the valley, hell sometimes they dont even look up unless the shot is in their general direction.
i take serious offense to anyone who is suggesting that i want this rifle to poach anything. to anyone who says so, F-U:angry2: . i am a volunteer with the Colorado Division of Wildlife, having just last weekend been a part of a bighorn sheep count. I have testified for the DOW, even after being threatened by the now convicted poacher. 
i am as serious a hunter as there is. i scout for elk as soon as late june, always carrying a rifle, and a pocket full of coyote calls. i spend a tremendous amount of time looking for and at animals. my experience has taught me that in the early summer where there are elk, there are coyotes. 

but back to the original quest. i have narrowed it down to 2 choices, either an xp-100 (i already have one in 7br), rebarreled with an 18" carbon fiber barrel, and a lightened action with a carbon fiber stock, or a custom titanium action with a carbon fiber barrel, and carbon fiber stock. my goal is 4.5# or less with a scope.
i already have the ar-15, the remington 700, the winchester model 70, and various other guns that will all kill coyotes, but they all weight at least 6#. though i have thought of other calibers, and may decide on something else, right now the quest is a .223 remington.


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## shalx (Aug 20, 2006)

*dont hack*

NULA , new ultralight arms in west Virginia very light very accurate customs reasonable ( for a custom ) prices. If you call you will likely talk to the owner and he will take the time to answer your questions. Don,t hack the xp100 and while I like the 700 ti if it is not lubed the actions feel very rough to function the NULA model 20 feels like glass built small and light from the start. Off topic but while you check out his website look at his rimfires I feel the best 22lr sporter made and he will match your big game rifle in weight balance and stock dimensions.COOL!


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## BlueRidgeMark (Aug 20, 2006)

Cool! Got link? Maybe he's close enough to me to visit.


Not that I have any money for a custom rifle....


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## spencerhenry (Aug 22, 2006)

i checked out the ultralight arms web site, a little bit more money than i wanted to spend on my project. i have no doubt they are fine pieces, but $2800 starting is not worth it to me. think i will get an xp-100 and build a stock for it out of rocky mountain juniper that is over 600 years old, possibly rebarrel it later


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