# growing liquid amber trees



## randyman

This is my first posting for this web site and hope someone out there can answer my questions. I've taken some of the spiny seed balls from a couple of liquid amber trees growing in the park across the street from my house. One of the trees is a brilliant red and the other not quite as vivid. If I plant the seed balls will it grow or do I need to do something to the seed balls first? Are there lots of seeds inside one of these balls or do I plant the whole thing? Also, will the seed balls from the trees have the same color leaves as the parent tree or do I take my chances on the leaf color? Thanks for any info you can provide. R!


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## Nickrosis

Sorry I don't have any specific experience with them, but I would always recommend seeing what Michael Dirr has to say in his Manual of Woody Plants. Mine is not at home with me now, but I could check when I'm back at work in 7 hours.


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## randyman

I'd appreciate any information you can find-Thanks, R!


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## Nickrosis

I remembered. 

For some reason, I didn't recalll _Liquidambar_ being spelled that way, but sure enough, on page 571 of *The Manual of Woody Landscape Plants* by the most excellent Michael Dirr (who I have to meet someday, we have a mutual friend who's promised to arrange something sometime).



> *PROPAGATION*: Seeds exhibit only a shallow dormancy, but germination rate is considerably increased by cold, moist stratification at 41°F for 15 to 90 days; leafy cuttings taken with a heel can be rooted under mist in summer; have tried to root a variegated seedling clone but without success; cultivars are normally budded or grafted.


Really good book. In my limited experience in testing his propagation recommendations, they have been useful but not perfect. I would try a couple variations on his experiences if you have the resources. 

To more directly answer what you're asking, I would try cracking open what you described as seed balls. The botanical term is fruit (I assume you're talking about the spiny looking capsules). Like an apple, a fruit is a structure that protects the seeds. So you want to get those seeds out and chilled in a refridgerator for a couple of weeks or months. Try a ziplock bag with a wet paper towel packed in. After that, you can sow them directly in pots or experiment with sprouting them in sand or between a paper towel folded over, saturated, and in full sunlight. Then move those into pots once a sprout (technically, a radicle) appears.

Let us know how it goes.

--AS's budding horticulturalist


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## Chucky

Randyman, 

Nick gives good advice on how to propagate a Sweetgum from seed. You mentioned, however, that one tree had brilliant red foliage, the other duller. Be careful in thinking because you harvested a fruit from the brilliant red tree, that you will get a tree with similar foliage from a seed from that fruit.

Trees are highly genetically variable, especially Sweetgums. The genes of both parents during sexual reproduction of a genetically variable organism will assort independently during meiosis, and when the gamete (what will become the egg and grow into the tree) is formed from this random mixing of genes, the eventual characteristics of this tree, such as leaf color, vigor, resistance to disease, etc., will entirely be determined by chance. In other words, if you plant 20 seeds from your Sweetgum fruit from the brilliant red tree, you will get a range of seedlings that display leaf color from red to dull. 

But you will probably not get brilliant red, because that particular tree is most likely a clone – grafted on a hardy rootstock – that came from an exceedingly rare seedling (or sapling) that was spotted by a wary nurseryman. He or she then tested it for other desirable characteristics, and after meeting most of these criteria, it became part of the nursery trade. Probably thousands of trees grown from that one clone, now manifest themselves as beautiful trees across the North American landscape.

So, the only way to get a tree just like the one you like is to clone it – thus keeping the exact same genes as the parent. In the case of the Sweetgum, you can either do it by making softwood cuttings, by grafting or budding, or by layering.

The other way to get the brilliant red color, is to grow the seeds en masse. Among hundreds of seedlings, you are bound to get one with the characteristic you’re looking for. Most likely you won't want to do this, but it was the way the most famous plant “breeder” of all time developed his unique plants. 

Luther Burbank rarely bred (crossed or hybridized) plants. He simply allowed a particular plant to become pollinated naturally (randomly), planted thousands of the genetically variable seeds on acres of land, then when they grew to seedlings, he selected the unusual ones that held potential. Luther Burbank’s genius was the ability to spot the “specialness" of an adult plant when it was a mere seedling.

My favorite Luther discovery: McDonald’s French Fries!


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## Nickrosis

Thanks for answering the rest of the questions.  I think you're much more qualified for those!


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## randyman

Many thanks for the response to my questions. I'll try your advice about freezing the seed balls (fruit) and see what happens. One of the trees has a couple of suckers sprouting from the base of the trunk and I'll also try rooting one of these. Again, many thanks. R!


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## Nickrosis

Refridgerating, not freezing. 

I don't know what the temperatures have been like in your area, but if it's been cold (around 40°F for a week or two), you may have already gotten the stratification effect.


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## Elmore

*Sweet Gum*

I wouldn't waste my time and energy on Liquidambar styraciflua mainly because of the aggressive root system and relatively weak structure. Also a lot of litter from mature fruit bearing trees. There are some seedless. Some say that they revert and then produce fruit. Liquidambar, the genus name, is also known in California as...Liquidambar. It is fairly popular and revered out there, mainly for it's fall color. Here in the southeast it is a common weed tree and is known as "Sweet Gum". You are in Chico. I hear that there are some Quercus suber planted there. Now that is a tree that I would devote some time to. If you can locate them and get some acorns, please send me some. In San Mateo, on the edge of Burlingame, west of El Camino Real, there is a planting of Quercus suber, Cork Oak. They were planted by John McLaren. As superintendent of parks, continuing the work of the previous park superintendent, McLaren patiently nurtured San Francisco's sand dunes into Golden Gate Park, one of America's great urban parks. During fifty-three years on the job, he built playgrounds and parks in San Francisco, sent around the world for plants, and was responsible for planting more than two million trees. Yep, he's the main man responsible for Golden Gate Park. He also planted a number of trees in other Bay Area communities. 

<img src="http://www.cypresslawn.com/graphics/notables/mclaren_port.jpg"width=250> <img src="http://www.lightight.com/GGP/mem_images/MemS28.jpg"width=350>
John McLaren
(1846-1943)


Luther Burbank lived and worked his magic in Santa Rosa.


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## Elmore

*Liquidambar styraciflua 'Rotundiloba'*

Here is a Sweet Gum that may be worth some attention, Liquidambar styraciflua `Rotundiloba' (Fruitless Sweetgum). Mature Ht./Wd.: 75'/50'. Unusual rounded lobes on the leaves. Fall color varies from yellow to burgundy. Original tree was discovered in the wild in North Carolina in 1930. According to Dirr, normally budded or grafted. You need root stock to graft onto so go ahead and germinate those seed. Moist stratification, 15 to 90 days at about 41 degrees f. Cuttings taken with heel can be rooted, under mist, in summer.
It's still a Sweet Gum though. Probably exhibits many characteristics that I am not fond of. I'll stick with Japanese Maples and Ginkgoes, thank you.

<img src="http://digitalis.mobot.org/mrsid/kemper/plantfinder/low/U950-0901022.jpg">


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## randyman

Thanks Elmore for your input. I may have to reconsider my choice of trees for the yard and enjoy the Fall colors of the liquidambar as it's growing across the street in the park. As for the Cuercus subar, if you're talking about a cork oak I have access to a lot of them. My Dad usually has several in pots at his house and is always looking for someone to pawn them off on. I can get acorns and send those if you'll send me your mailing address. It's a fairly slow growing tree but also hardy. I don't know if he has some in pots that could be sent or not, they may be to large. I got some acorns from some red oaks in the park and have them in pots now. I got information at the nursery about the two types of acorns I found but don't have the botanical name with me here at work. They were Cuercues something or other. One has a small flat acorn and came from a round shaped red oak and the other is a larger, regular shaped acorn and is from a more conical shaped oak. You can reply to my email if you [email protected] . R!


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## Chucky

Elmore,

I'd heard somewhere about John McLaren; he seems to be the Frederick Law Ohmstead of the west coast. 

That Sweetgum cultivar is delicious-looking. Wish it was about 10 degrees F hardier so we could grow it here. The varied fall color reminds me of Black Gum, which though we can grow here, because it's a slow-grower, people seldom plant it. But it's a great park specimen, and fortunately Syracuse seems to have had the forward-thinkedness to plant it. But the colors remind me even more of the beautiful Persian Parrotia, a specimen of which I planted in my front yard last year, and happens to be in the same family. Reds, oranges, and yellows. I LOVE trees with great fall color!


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## Chucky

Liquidambar styraciflua 'Golden Treasure'


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## Tree Machine

Elmore, could you graft the scion of a _Liquidambar styraciflua_ 'Golden Treasure' onto the stock of any other sapling _Liquidambar_ ? Nice specimens. Nice pics


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## Elmore

*sounds like the plan*

Probably chip bud the heck out of it.


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## Tree Machine

C'mon.... explain chipbud.


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## Elmore

*Sounds like fun*



Tree Machine said:


> Elmore, could you graft the scion of a _Liquidambar styraciflua_ 'Golden Treasure' onto the stock of any other sapling _Liquidambar_ ? Nice specimens. Nice picsQUOTE]
> 
> Likely can be grafted within the species styraciflua. Possibly successful with acalycina and formosana. I'm sure that cultivars are mainly grafted onto styraciflua root stock. Best to evaluate the cultivar and how well it will perform in your area first. According to Dirr, 'Golden Treasure' is not very heat tolerant and due to about 4 more years of hell here in the USA, I would look at other similar cultivars to clone. Of course, if you have a stock plant handy I would give it a try anyway. You could always send them to places like the SF bay area, Ireland etc.. The cooler climates. There are several variegated cultivars and others with unusual features. It's best to investigate what you intend to produce. This ain't no presidential election. A cultivar called 'Starlight' sounds good. It is a Tony Avent introduction from NC. Very possibly heat tolerant and will not burn in the sun. 'Variegata' is very attractive and I suspect more readily available. 'Moonbeam', from Duncan and Davies in New Zealand sounds like it is an attractive cultivar. Heat tolerance? I can't tell ya. Maybe TimberMcPherson could tell us.
> <img src="http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/images/cd1703/gif/cd1703-90.gif">


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## Elmore

*Chip Bud (one of many techniques used in grafting)*



Tree Machine said:


> C'mon.... explain chipbud.


http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g1518.htm 

<img src="http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0802/images/prop3b.JPG"><img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:CxmdAqxnY1kJ:http://www.pixelography.net/media/chip.jpg"><img src="http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0802/images/prop3b.JPG">


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## Tree Machine

*Good link!*

Is that Chip Ganassi in the Bud car? Never made the connection. Do you use regular grafting wax on the new graft, lac balsam, or some other sealant? You could use this to implant little red (in the Fall) branches / limbs on an otherwise yellow tree, yes?


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## Elmore

*Chip Ganassi in the Bud car?*



Tree Machine said:


> Is that Chip Ganassi in the Bud car? Never made the connection. Do you use regular grafting wax on the new graft, lac balsam, or some other sealant? You could use this to implant little red (in the Fall) branches / limbs on an otherwise yellow tree, yes?


In what car? I can't see around that fella standing in front of the vehicle. It just looks like some right wing Bush supporter promoting "Family Values"...i.e. alcohol use Message from the American Medical Association, while raking in big bucks in sponsorship money. To me... that is.
Typically, you seal a bud graft with budding tape. A plastic tape used to secure the bud to the under stock. Some growers are using a self-adhering, stretchy, wax like tape called "Buddy Tape". I have been using Parafilm, cut into 1/4" x 2" strips. Parafilm is often used in laboratories to seal petri dishes etc.. It is a lot like "Buddy Tape" but thinner and likely, less expensive. Many growers won't use anything but the typical plastic tape that requires tying. It absolutely requires physical removal on the grower's part where as the "Buddy Tape" and Parafilm will eventually, in most cases, breakdown and not pose a problem with girdling.
Plastic budding tape 
Buddy Tape 
Parafilm 
Additional Parafilm Info


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## Tree Machine

*the gift of knowledge*

Excellent reference pieces there. Thank you

Can a chip be installed into the phloem/cambim of a much larger limb? 

Just pure curiosity.  Here's a pic...


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## Elmore

*budding/grafting*

I believe that a chip bud could work but there may be some better techniques to employ on a larger, more mature branch. I'll check and report back. (????...I just used spell check and infected my comp with a pop up thing).


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## Chucky

Hey Elmore!

What do you think of this great invention, the rooterpot?

http://www.rootrainers.co.uk/supplies/rooterpot


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## Tree Machine

Air layering made easy! Thanks, Chucky.


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## Elmore

*rooterpot?*



Chucky said:


> Hey Elmore!
> 
> What do you think of this great invention, the rooterpot?
> 
> http://www.rootrainers.co.uk/supplies/rooterpot


hmmm...sounds good to me. I have used the old fashioned, awkward methods before but I am open to new, more refined techniques. Need more info. Does it utilize moss or some other media? How many quid will it put me back, including shipping, handling and customs? Send samples.


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## Elmore

*Chainsaw may be needed*



Tree Machine said:


> Excellent reference pieces there. Thank you
> 
> Can a chip be installed into the phloem/cambim of a much larger limb?
> 
> Just pure curiosity.  Here's a pic...


Man, that's one butt ugly tree. Can you get a better picture? heh heh
Chip budding or most any graft may work. The main things to consider are good cambial contact and timing.
I recommend that you check out a book called "The Grafter's Handbook" by R.J. Garner. It's an old favorite. Been around a long time. Your library may have it or it can be purchased for about $17.00-$20.00 or so. Look up "Prong Budding". Also "Side Rind Graft", " 'Plant Pot' Rind Graft", "Awl Graft", "Peg Graft", "Slit Graft" and "Inverted L Graft". Many other techniques of grafting and budding, that may be of use, are illustrated and described in this book. I think "Prong Budding" is an appropriate graft for such an ugly tree.


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## Elmore

*Another suggestion*

Before sealing your graft, apply a solution of IBA to stimulate callous formation and keep that silicon goop away from your graft. Use a grafting wax or even better, Lac Balsam or Doc Farwell's Seal & Heal or Grafting Seal.


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## Tree Machine

More great resource from Elmore. Thanks, man.

Sorry about the butt-ugly tree. I did actually have in mind a particular tree, but the problem is, it's not a Sweetgum. To tell you about it would be to derail the thread. I'll show the pics as it is a variegated beech, prompted by your variegated <i>styraciflua</i>.

Does Elmore sell trees? I am just curious. You're specialty, if I am to recall correctly, is in the asexual propagation of odd, unusual and exceedingly cool trees. Is this true?


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## Elmore

*Ahh...*

... Tricolor Beech. Fagus sylvatica 'Roseomarginata'


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## Tree Machine

...... Elmore....? I'm getting the feeling that you're either a closet geek genius horticulturist, or possibly the department chair at U of A. What's your deal, Man?


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## jkarg

*Liquid Amber help*



randyman said:


> This is my first posting for this web site and hope someone out there can answer my questions. I've taken some of the spiny seed balls from a couple of liquid amber trees growing in the park across the street from my house. One of the trees is a brilliant red and the other not quite as vivid. If I plant the seed balls will it grow or do I need to do something to the seed balls first? Are there lots of seeds inside one of these balls or do I plant the whole thing? Also, will the seed balls from the trees have the same color leaves as the parent tree or do I take my chances on the leaf color? Thanks for any info you can provide. R!


 
Get a cup and shake the spiny seed balls, preferably still hanging from the tree, you should see seeds. Get a small container, fill with loose soil- potting soil with some sand, put seeds on top spaced out and cover with thin layer of soil. Water with spray bottle. Make sure soil is already very moist. Then put in window at home that gets sunlight but not too hot. I have three such pots going now. Good luck


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