# Logging Contracts



## Ruster22 (Jun 1, 2013)

I have an opportunity to log a forty acre mixed lot. I have done several smaller select cuts, much smaller clearing jobs, cord wood, and tree removals, but I have several questions about a job this big and I have never sold logs off site.

First of all the township of Ulster (Hudson Valley) NY. requires a driveway permit (I would be contracting out the excavation job as a landing would need to be dug in the side of the hill, a culvert put in, and a road cut into a steep slope.), a Management plan, and a $5k cleanup bond. 

The lot is steep, for the east coast, and consists of 30% oaks and hickory 18"-30" and 60% pines 18"-36". I would have access to a large J deere tractor for the skidding and my buddy (yall know him as Plankton on here) for help with the timber falling. The 5k will be a push to come up with as I am a full time student, and I have contacts for a bunch of local mills and an intermediary log trucker. The lot was obviously managed 20 some years ago and the Land owner has the land for sale and wants to cash in on all of the timber (not my first choice). 

Questions:
What should a management plan look like? Should I hire a forester? what could he offer if I am going to be cutting most everything over 18"? ( I may need him to sign off on the plan). One mill wants to come out and look at the standing timber, is this normal and effective? 
The land owner (my dads girlfriend) fired a logger who showed up to town meetings drunk, couldn't come up with the bond money, and kept stalling. The management plan that he gave was a one page hand written joke. 

Do any of you have a chart of log price trends for pine over the past couple of years? (slightly off topic.

How do I go about estimating the job? What percentage does the land owner get? Is it worth pulling cord wood too? and if so, do any of you sell it by the log truck load aka in 16' lengths? 
The previous logger said he would pay the HO 40%: "15-30k maybe more maybe less" this sounds like a huge range and a high percentage to me. 

What else should I be looking out for? 

Thanks,
Ru


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## dooby (Jun 1, 2013)

Rustler22- If it were me i'd be careful about letting a mill send a forester to look at standing timber. Them foresters work for the mills the can "slick willy" pretty good. Alot like a car salesman or a politician or a lawyer. There are some good guys out your way on here, I hope they can help ya. I don't know the eastern market at all. I believe you will do fine.Good luck and go for it. I'd steer clear of a tractor and maybe see about leasing proper machinery or subbing the skidding out, It would take some burden off your schedule.IMO


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## jrcat (Jun 2, 2013)

I would not let a forester from a mill come onto the lots unless the mill is a reputable mill. Other than that its not a bad idea as that forester can save you alot of wasted time cutting trees they dont want. Get an independent forester if at all possible or one from the state. There are a few foresters on this site that might be able to give you some good information. 

The management plan is most likely for erosion control management. This varies from county to county in NY I could be wrong but it is more than likely where you plan to put in roads ,water bars and silt fence. then what you plan to do with the roads when you are done. 

Here is a stumpage price report from the NY DEC on various species sold throughout the state and the prices they bring in different areas of the state. http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2013winter.pdf

Most guys I know that work on percentage do it like this LO/ logger 50/50 or 55/45 or 60/40. This works out best for both parties and keeps things honest. Most reputable mils will also split the checks, one to you and one to the LO.

The pole/cord wood I would pull do not leave it in the woods, anymore the DEC frowns on it as it is considered waste and you might beable to trade some pole/cord wood for trucking. I have done this some and seems to work out well as the trucking company will take it stack it and sell it in the fall.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 2, 2013)

you should be able to get a lot of assistance from the county forrester and soil conservation district. they are non biased and there to help you. I would not invite a mill forrester out, as they are your competition. independents may charge up to 10% of the sale. I use the county guys here, listen to them and you will be ahead of the game. if ya can get the 50/50 deal goin it will be simpler if ya a little new at estimating the feet, it is tricky more so on big timber. keep askin us ? some one here should be able ta help. good luck

hey those hardwoods my be good enuf for grade, check into that market as well


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## bustedup (Jun 2, 2013)

I'd seriously consider a forester that is not connected in any way to a mill. Also I'd suggest that a county or state guy will know what mills are taking what and what lengths etc they are taking. He/she may also have other useful contacts that you could tap into.


As far as the work, plan your lays before you cut a thing, it can save ya time and headaches later. Don't over extend yourself there is only so much you can do yourself. It is a great temptation to think you are capable of doing more than either time etc will allow.


Expect things to go wrong at times (things always do) (equipment, weather etc) but have some sort of back up plan in place so things don't grind to a halt (time is money).


Deliver what you promise and on time. Leave no mess and keep communication lines open.



There are a lot of very experienced guys on here so ask questions (they cost nothing) 



Good luck and hope it turns out well


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## northmanlogging (Jun 2, 2013)

As far as the bond goes, should be bonding type agencies near you that will take x% of the total bond. For example for me to have a 1,000,000 liability bond I would need to come up with 200,000 or 20% but then I could tell people I was bonded... so for 5K shouldn't be to bad (this is just an educated guess...)

Avoid the mill foresters like they have the plague, chances are they will turn around and underbid you so thier crews can get the work, they have no loyalty to you, and contracts that need filled.


For 40 acres you guys are gonna desperately want a skidder... should be a few around that just need a little lovin to make em go again. In fact there are several near my for under 7k, course it would cost as much to truck em out to NY... (clark 666, 667, garrett 20, 25, international s7,8, all under $7,000 the internationals are beat to Hel though...)

If this 40 acre you speak of is a guaranteed deal, you could possibly get a small business loan. That would cover a used skidder, the clean up bond, permitting, and maybe a little startup money. Although I would normally advice against going into debt, sometimes its unavoidable.

Is there a local logger you respect near you that could maybe mentor ya? Some old duffer that just knows how to get the wood out, while jumping through the paperwork nonsense, and is mostly retired so don't care about the "competition"...

Best of luck to ya, (funny this time that's not said/typed ironically... really good luck... and keep an open mind, and open ears)


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## Ruster22 (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks for the help. Based on your responses: No Mill forester, yes State/county forester, 50/50 HO/Logger income, Skidder over tractor, talk to more old timers. 

I would be interested in getting a business loan, but I go back to school in August and want to avoid any more debt for the time being. 

I'll call the trucker Monday and see what he knows about current prices. He sells to lots of local mills and I believe his outfit even ships to Canada, have you guys worked with this kind of intermediary trucker before? 

Thanks again,
Ru


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 2, 2013)

rus, I have my own truck so can't help there. jrcat does tho I think. ya can use a tracktor, jus remember 6 ply tires so gotta be super carefull and cut good roads. it's a hassle but can be done. 
ya prolly tear it up some.


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## jrcat (Jun 2, 2013)

I can probably get a list of some buyers up that way. I'll see what I can do. I know Wagner lumber is one of em .


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## Twindad (Jun 2, 2013)

If you need a management plan, you should definitely get a forester to help. I'm not familiar with NY agencies, but I'm certain there is a natural resources agency with foresters that can help you with several of your questions. Management plans, contact information for buyers, location and layout of landing and skid trails, etc. are all things that a forester can provide. A private consulting forester can provide all of the same plus accurate estimates of standing timber value. However, if you are cutting on shares, an estimate of timber value may not be all that important to you.
If you have a market, you should consider taking out the pulpwood sized stuff too. Just taking out the big trees in a diameter limit cut can have negative effects on the stand long term. Those smaller trees getting left behind in a diameter limit cut probably aren't smaller just because they are younger. They could be just as old as the big trees, just poorer quality, that would result in a poor quality future stand.
There's a lot of timber on 40the acres. As stated earlier, I would definitely look into getting a skidder. You can use a farm tractor to skid but it will be sloooow. More importantly, it can be very dangerous, especially if you're not an experienced operator and the ground is steep, as you say it is. If you're determined to use the tractor, then a quality 3pt winch will help a lot.
Good luck, log smart and be safe.

-Twindad


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## imalogger (Jun 2, 2013)

*Skidder*

+1 on the skidder. The woods is not a kind place on a farm tractor. Or any machine for that matter. It's real easy to rip valve stems of tractor tires or puncture the tires themselves. It's real nice to have a blade on the front 4x4 and most importantly a good cage around you. There's plenty of cages on skidders that bear evidence that they saved whoever was sitting inside when the cable snapped, top broke out of the tree ect.. I know the cage on mine saved my life. Most of us with skidders have probably had that moment when your skidders on 3 wheels and then you have to put the blade down to get it back on 4..


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## Gologit (Jun 2, 2013)

Good advice so far.


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## northmanlogging (Jun 2, 2013)

If you guys want to stand any chance of being done buy August, get a skidder. Tractors are all fine and good for farmer brown, with his logging winch... been there done that... production wise though you'll be lucky to get a load a day with a tractor, figure more like a load every 2-3 days, at that rate it could take 6 months to finish 40 acres. And realistically your talk'n 3-4 days with a tractor, and the longer the skid, the longer its gonna take.

With two of ya pounding away at it and a decent skidder, you should be able to pull 2 loads a day on good ground, granted east coast wood is different than here but should be somewhere in that vacinity.


As far as the percentage split... 50/50 is a pretty good deal for the LO, 60/40 is more reasonable, but since he's helping ya out I would give em 50%, unless the ground is really bad, steep/soft/rocky etc. then I would be inclined to go more in my favor.


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## Metals406 (Jun 2, 2013)

Cut it all down to dirt and replant. :msp_w00t:


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## 412jason (Jun 14, 2013)

I'm looking for white pine to construct a log cabin? How's it looking, you got large white pine


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## ryan_marine (Jun 25, 2013)

Here is how I do it in Ohio. The contract varies from job to job. But more or less it is a 70/30 split. Unless I have to do somthing with the tops. Then it could go as far as 40/60. I would sell off all the blocking to which ever mill is paying the highest. That gives the logger pocket money to keep working. Then when all the grade is out BID it off to what ever mills are in the area. Not hard to do. I would keep the forester out. Normally they cost 10% of all logs. Way to high imho. 

Ray


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## dooby (Jun 25, 2013)

metals406 said:


> cut it all down to dirt and replant. :msp_w00t:



l


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## dooby (Jun 25, 2013)

Metals406 said:


> Cut it all down to dirt and replant. :msp_w00t:



LOG , BURN IT, PAVE IT, I WANT MY MONEY NOW!!!!:msp_biggrin:


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## Ruster22 (Jun 26, 2013)

*Update:*

Thank you all for the advice.

I finally walked the lot with the State Forester this morning. 

Next I've got to get some bids for putting in a road; the statie recommended keeping the landing up in the woods, out of site and out of mind. I'm inclined to agree as the only place on the road that I could put it has 3 drainages systems coming out. I guess that means a bigger road and turn around for the house site. I should take the house site clearing (access, stumping and grading(maybe 2 acres)) out of the HO share right?

I also have to find a low grade pine and cord wood buyer. 

For the skidding I am going to try my buddies big Deere, but will probably end up subbing it to a skidker.

I am also considering buying the timber rights as there will be some killer oaks in there in 10-15 yrs: I would come up with a total estimate, low grade and cord wood to pay the HO 40% of said estimate, and put in contract the logging rights or 60% cash when she sells to land, which ever comes first. Does this sound reasonable?

What kind of insurance do you guys use? Granted I do not have any credit rating, no official business or history and am only 20 yrs old???



Thanks,
Ru


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## Ruster22 (Jun 26, 2013)

412jason said:


> I'm looking for white pine to construct a log cabin? How's it looking, you got large white pine



I got big pines, you gonna pick them up?


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## 412jason (Jun 26, 2013)

*whiate pine?*

Im looking for eastern white pine. 24 to 32 inch butts or bigger and at least 35 feet long.


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## dooby (Jun 26, 2013)

opcorn:


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## northmanlogging (Jun 27, 2013)

Ruster22 said:


> Thank you all for the advice.
> 
> I finally walked the lot with the State Forester this morning.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a solid plan.

For insurance, there are several outfits locale here that cater to loggers, Maybe call some local outfits and find who they are using? My liability is less then car insurance... Full coverage???

If your buddy lets you borrow his skidder do that (and don't tear it up) until you can get your own, maybe pay him a bit of rent. Subbing it out is paying some other dude to A: skid your logs B: keep his machine in repairs and fuel and C: pay his wage (the part that would normally go in your pocket...


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## jwilly (Jun 27, 2013)

412 - those are some big cabin logs.


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## treeslayer2003 (Jun 27, 2013)

jwilly said:


> 412 - those are some big cabin logs.



he prolly gonna mill them square?


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## Oldtimer (Jun 27, 2013)

After you take your money from the stumpage, the trucker takes his, the excavater takes his, your friend takes his, and the sub skidder takes his, the land owner will get zero.

There isn't enough money to go around. Not unless there's $70K in wood there.

And a farm tractor will get you killed on steep ground- if you don't go broke first.

My advice: Turn a local logger on to it for a fee of $500 up front. Easy money.


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## 412jason (Jun 27, 2013)

treeslayer2003 said:


> he prolly gonna mill them square?


I use them as is. Except for removing the bark. Scribe them and cut them with a chainsaw.


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