# Where has all the business gone?



## Sunrise Guy (Jul 9, 2009)

I have never had such a long, dry spell as I am having, at present. The weather sets new records for heat, each day, and people just don't want their trees worked on. It was 106F, yesterday! Hot or cold, I need to work. I'm starting to feel like I'm going to knock on doors and offer to take down limbs for $50/hr., no minimum. This is getting painful. Anyone else out there in the "oven belt" noticing a drop-off of business?


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## prentice110 (Jul 9, 2009)

You aint kiddin! I dont know about the "heat belt", but I just did a pine removal the other day for 40 bucks cash. I didnt want to but I needed the $ for fuel so I could do the next job. Two years ago I wouldve had no problem selling the same tree for 150-200 without the stump all day long. Thats the thing I hate about knocking on doors. When someone calls you, they need something from you. But when your doing the knocking your more at there will.


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## Treetom (Jul 9, 2009)

slow around here, too. on a job i bid last week i was the tenth tree service. many more clients keeping the wood and doing their own clean up, too, trying to save a buck. i haven't resorted to knocking on doors yet, but i will if it gets too slow, or just go through my client list and do some telemarketing. 
maybe go door to door pulling that promark and drum up a few stump jobs.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 9, 2009)

yep here to jobs go chep back to 1980s price tom trees


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## prentice110 (Jul 9, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> yep here to jobs go chep back to 1980s price tom trees



80's prices? What are you talkin about? there hasnt been a price increase in this whole forsaken industry since the 80's


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## treeman82 (Jul 9, 2009)

I went to look at one yesterday, the landscaper took me over. The client has been out of work for 9 months and wanted the lowest price. I bid at $1,200, and they had already had at least 5 other prices, ranging from $850 - $1300. Thing is you need a backhoe or a log truck to be able to do the job in an efficient manner.

While things were on the rise for a while, it looks as though we are gonna be on another downward slope for a bit... people are holding onto money again.


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## senechal (Jul 9, 2009)

It's pretty slow here. Our two crews are on 4 day work weeks with some short days on top of that. I know that we are slightly more fortunate than arborists at a couple other big shops in town, but if things don't pick up...


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## prentice110 (Jul 9, 2009)

I know a guy with 2 GIANT red oaks. The kind that are 85 feet tall and all trunk. I wanted to stock up on firewood cuz this winter is going to be brutal, so I gave him a "nice price" of 700 per tree without stumps. He said some cash raiders told him 800 for everything! He told me who it was and I couldnt believe it. If he even goes with them, I might sit across the street from them with my bob cat and watch them quarter the rounds and load them by hand into there pickup truck. Knowing these guys itll be six hours to get em' down , and two days of cutting and loading. I shouldve stayed in med school. jk


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## mckeetree (Jul 9, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> Thats the thing I hate about knocking on doors. When someone calls you, they need something from you. But when your doing the knocking your more at there will.




You are right. When you go knocking doors you are someones punk and I would just not do tree work if it came to that. My Grandfather was one heck of a business man. Better than I'll ever be. One thing he told me was never get into something where you have no options to change horses if it quits making money and I took every word to heart.


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 9, 2009)

prentice 110 said:


> 80's prices? What are you talkin about? there hasn't been a price increase in this whole forsaken industry since the 80's



your nuts we got in the 90s $ 2500.00 a day 3 man day now its$ 900.00 and happy to get that tom trees


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## ozarktreeman (Jul 9, 2009)

Treetom said:


> slow around here, too. , or just go through my client list and do some telemarketing.
> 
> 
> That has worked really well for me in the past,or just pay past clients a visit
> ...


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## Rftreeman (Jul 9, 2009)

I haven't done any tree work in weeks so I'm glad I'm a jack of all trades.

it will get worst before it gets better.......


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## Tree Pig (Jul 9, 2009)

Well idiot home owners like this dont help. If you guys havent read this post yet its worth the price of admission, this guy takes the cake.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=103561


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## ozarktreeman (Jul 9, 2009)

wow,that,s one cheap sob!
not wishin any bad luck on anyone but maybe the nieghbors seen him snap crackle and pop!


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## prentice110 (Jul 9, 2009)

tomtrees58 said:


> your nuts we got in the 90s $ 2500.00 a day 3 man day now its$ 900.00 and happy to get that tom trees



We could pull 5 g's a day in the late 80's early 90's but we were the only ones around with 2 clam trucks and a 20 inch chipper then. Back then there were maybe 15 co's in the yellow pages. Now theres over 80 and thats just whos listed. Theres way to much competion and thats a fact. Maybe in your neck of the woods there isnt 500 cash raiding crackheads or brown boys drivin the price down. But here in the real real world even when things were good you were hard pressed to get more than 2000 a day. Unless its a crane day. Or your just lucky.


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## senechal (Jul 10, 2009)

prentice110 said:


> Maybe in your neck of the woods there isnt 500 cash raiding crackheads or brown boys drivin the price down.



No better way to drum up business than letting colleagues and clients know you have anxieties of different skin colours in the industry. WTF


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## mckeetree (Jul 10, 2009)

senechal said:


> No better way to drum up business than letting colleagues and clients know you have anxieties of different skin colours in the industry. WTF



Take all that smart talk off some where else cat. The man made an accurate and honest statement.


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## senechal (Jul 10, 2009)

Honest statement indeed. The racist BS I don't much care for.


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## prentice110 (Jul 10, 2009)

If you think thats racist .... Some of my best friends are mexican. Im just pointing out facts. So I have a foul mouth. I really dont care what you think cuz Im not gonna change your mind any way so ignore it or go home.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jul 10, 2009)

We have a lot of lowball hacks of every color, many of them come form upstate Mini-soda. Dunlap likes to call them wood ticks.

There is a local father & sons outfit here that does a lot of raise and guts that look like a home owner rented a bucket.

I too feel that the racial reference is inappropriate, that is unless it is Irish you are lambasting, them Mic bastages aint worth the ink their...oh wait, my grandma's grandaddy came from Ireland...


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## newsawtooth (Jul 10, 2009)

*Business*

There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.

As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.


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## TreePointer (Jul 10, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.
> 
> As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.



I think Pennsylvania just moved in that direction. 
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/hic.aspx?id=4313
http://www.plna.com/content/?/government/sb-100-contractor-registration/who-must-register

I wonder how this affects arborists and tree services. Any PA professionals out there?


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## mckeetree (Jul 10, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.
> 
> As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.




I think you are right.


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## TackleTree (Jul 10, 2009)

My experience is when the market goes up there is a better chance of getting the price you want. Still tough for sales in the summer. Try it, won't hurt to try! Good luck.


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## arborist (Jul 10, 2009)

newsawtooth said:


> There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.
> 
> As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.



EXACTLY!
and i cannot understand why every state doesn't mandate this already.
everyone wins!
the homeowner.why?because they can ONLY get licensed arborists who have studied safety first and how to properly care for trees.etc.etc.etc.
its kicks out the fly by under bidders who have no insurance nor other overhead in most cases.
the industry as a whole wins.
the good "tree workers" WILL become "arborists"
the fly by guys wont care to study and become knowledgeable in modern arboriculture.after all.they dont care about safety or trees.just that $ they can get from them unlike the good tree workers.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> (snip)Run your business right and you will not have to worry about the low ballers and hacks taking your business.



Sorry, but that's just not true in many markets around the US and, probably, the world. It sounds cool to say it, and draws many into saluting with a "Right on!" while they stand up and cheer, but it's really empty, feel-good fluff. In my area, there are fellows who will take down a lightning-struck, seventy-foot Sycamore, with a fifty foot, full-canopy spread, for $400 against my $1750 bid, as happened last week, and I was giving the fellow a good bid as I knew him from past experience. FWIW, the tree stood ten feet from the fellow's house. No, you can do everything right, and work your :censored: off to please your customers, but when times are tight, the low-ballers and hacks do take your business, and that's a fact, Jack!


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## mckeetree (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I agree.



Now why would you want to go and agree with that? Facts are facts. And in certain areas the Mexicans are driving the prices in this business down. I see it all the time. Their is not much regulation in this business so they have little overhead and they come in with prices that won't even cover a legitimate business hard cost to do a job. The Mexican owner may be legal but their workers won't be. And to say do a good job and you won't have to worry about things like that is a big crock of crap. No matter how good you run your business you can't compete with a situation like that. I have payroll tax, sales tax, contractors liability,workers comp.,mandatory high limits of vehicle liability, applicators license fees, ISA dues, TCIA dues, business property tax, Texas workforce commission fees and income tax just to name some of it. And all they have is a yellow pages ad. But they are cheap and in a bad economy they look good.


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## mckeetree (Jul 11, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Sorry, but that's just not true in many markets around the US and, probably, the world. It sounds cool to say it, and draws many into saluting with a "Right on!" while they stand up and cheer, but it's really empty, feel-good fluff. In my area, there are fellows who will take down a lightning-struck, seventy-foot Sycamore, with a fifty foot, full-canopy spread, for $400 against my $1750 bid, as happened last week, and I was giving the fellow a good bid as I knew him from past experience. FWIW, the tree stood ten feet from the fellow's house. No, you can do everything right, and work your :censored: off to please your customers, but when times are tight, the low-ballers and hacks do take your business, and that's a fact, Jack!



That's a fact, Jack.


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## mckeetree (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.



This whole deal is going over your head you moron.


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## arborist (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.



right.but that's just the point.
many are saying these fly by guys should be made to step up or get out of the way by mandating state arborist licenses & insurance.
so in other words,it should be illegal to just let someone with a saw promote themselves for compensation of tree work.
there are reputable isa certified arborists who are not lucky enough to live in a state where anyone can legally do the same work they can.
to many homeowners simply don't know the difference.they look at a yellow page ad and think well,he's just as good as the next guy.
sadly,many just don't understand the VAST difference.

see,without mandating a license where an individual clearly needs to study and learn.(not some simple little ok,go through the motions test for a fee either lol) you have "joe" who is called,who has no education but offers the same work as "jack" who is a licesed arborist.
joe bids a price of $10.00 and jack bids $15.00
a homeowner simply doesn't care or doesn't know.and takes the lower price.
this sucks,as "jack" can prove to the state he knows what he's doing to remain safe,not damage anything,and be insured in case,as well show he knows how to properly care for a tree,not just take $ and run.
now at the same time,"jack" is hurt yet again,if and when "joe" bids $15 on the same job as well.because "joe" is simply not proven as "jack" and hasn't done the requirements.he shouldn't make the same amount of money of course.
without state mandatory arborist licensing and proof of insurance,"jack" is SOL! who worked very hard and maintains all the proper tools,safety training,work comp etc,etc,etc, that "joe" is not required to have or checked upon at all to verify.
not to mention the complete butcher work we see in these states to trees who don't require arborists.

make it illegal in all states for a co with no license so that proven "arborists" can make a living,while maintaining constant training is what needs to happen.
until then,you are correct it: " falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack." lol


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## newsawtooth (Jul 11, 2009)

*Business*

Tree Co, requiring licensing and insurance is bureaucracy and if you run your company right then you shouldn't have a problem with a little oversight. 

If all that is required to enter this business is a saw and ladder then most legit companies will not be able to compete. The notion of customer service and quality work is idealistic and naive. It is a business that is driven by bids, lowest bid wins. Most customers will pass you over for a few bucks discount.

I return to impediments, speed bumps to entering the business. Why is it that pesticide application is so lucrative, relatively? I should preface this by stating that it is lucrative (relatively) in CO, WY, and UT. In comparison it has harder to get an applicator license. It requires so much experience, so much education, and stricter licensing guidelines. The net effect is a smaller number of people providing the service and subsequently much less disparity between bids. They are typically within a few cents per application for Mountain Pine Beetle for example.

Maybe more bureaucracy isn't the answer, but excluding more people from the business couldn't hurt.


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## PurdueJoe (Jul 11, 2009)

Everyone wants quality work. Only 5% of clients will pay that extra for it. The other 95% they are going to take that lower bid. Simply as that. I bid a job for a guy that knew a client had done a job for a couple weeks before and they guy kept telling me how happy my client was and how great a job I did and how he wanted the same thing. Gave the price thinking this is in bag this guy knows I do good work. Never heard from him. Lowest bid wins.


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## BRCCArborist (Jul 11, 2009)

Work is pretty good here, I average about 10-12 hour days. Almost too much! But too much work is better than not enough.


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## highasatree (Jul 11, 2009)

*keeping busy*

Yes it has slowed down, Not getting near the amount of calls I've had in previous years. If it wasn't for my corporate clients, I'd have hardly no work.
Right now I've got around 2 good weeks of work ahead od us...Eugene


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## mckeetree (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Twenty two years in the biz. I don't think the subject is over my head, punk!



I have been in business for 23 years but whether it's 10 or 22 or 23 years that doesn't keep anybody from being a moron. I knew a guy that retired in 1999 after 38 years in the business and everything went over his head. You couldn't tell him anything or make him understand anything. So years do not inoculate you from being a moron.


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## tree MDS (Jul 11, 2009)

I like to think that tree work is one of the last jobs where a real man can make a good living doing something that he loves. Heck, its not everybody that can make more money than a lawyer per hour with no education to speak of! This speaks of the sort of man this trade requires.

I'm not for more bureaucracy by any means...on the other hand I dont want to see the trade ruined by low-ballers.

I just go about and try and let my work speak for itself. Its coming together slowly.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.



Since it's against policy, on here, to get into personal attacks, I will not begin to do so. Just imagine all of the negative things that could be said about your kind, caring, compassionate reply, as above, and you'll have it without my stating it.

In a country where illegals have a "right" to compete, at an unfair advantage, with those of us who must pay all of the taxes and fees my colleague in Dallas previously listed, it is certainly NOT a matter of tough :censored:.


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## l2edneck (Jul 11, 2009)

been real slow here to


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## mckeetree (Jul 11, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I like to think that tree work is one of the last jobs where a real man can make a good living doing something that he loves. Heck, its not everybody that can make more money than a lawyer per hour with no education to speak of! This speaks of the sort of man this trade requires.
> 
> I'm not for more bureaucracy by any means...on the other hand I dont want to see the trade ruined by low-ballers.
> 
> I just go about and try and let my work speak for itself. Its coming together slowly.




More money than a lawyer per hour? I need to move to CT. I never wanted to see a lot of bureaucracy in this business but something needs to change the way things are going now.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jul 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Twenty two years in the biz. I don't think the subject is over my head, punk!



How many years have you been out of the biz, though? If you are still active in it, which I doubt, how do you get the time to post more than four posts a day, everyday, for the past 7.5 years? I really want to know how that's possible. 4X365X7.5=10,950.

It's easy to be an "arm-chair arborist" when you haven't been in a tree for many years, or been out there seeing the hacks tearing it up for the same amount of time.


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## tree MDS (Jul 11, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> More money than a lawyer per hour? I need to move to CT. I never wanted to see a lot of bureaucracy in this business but something needs to change the way things are going now.



Well you get my point anyways. Last job I actually made 200 per hour gross. Not bad. Thats decent pay here. The start ups are usually around 1200 a day. I try and be middle road with my pricing. My customers usually are refferals or people that can just generally tell I've got a pretty good clue as to what needs to be done and how to go about it.

Sometimes I still wonder if I'm charging enough though.


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## tree MDS (Jul 11, 2009)

Not to derail a good cat fight though....


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## Daddy M Dawg (Jul 11, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> How many years have you been out of the biz, though? If you are still active in it, which I doubt, how do you get the time to post more than four posts a day, everyday, for the past 7.5 years? I really want to know how that's possible. 4X365X7.5=10,950.



Didn't TreeCo use to be the moderator here? If so that answers the questions for me.


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## tree md (Jul 11, 2009)

Been slow here too until the past week. I booked 6 jobs this past week for a little over 5K and have a $3800 sale pending. I am getting about 1/3 less on jobs than I was last year but I'm having to compete with market prices. Hey, I'm working. Maybe things will pick up for some of you guys soon. I sure hope it stays busy here.


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## ewoolsey (Jul 11, 2009)

i have been doing alright here for this time of the year, have lots of jobs lined up for fall, did a $2,400 job last week plus got 5 others.


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## treevet (Jul 14, 2009)

Been busy enough this summer but anything will seem slow after you experience a hurricane. For 6 straight months every day storm work for top dollar and unlimited work. Buy anything you want watch your bank accounts bulge. Tired but happy tired.

Took a bid today in an area I won't usually bid in as I am used to the money properties but my insurance agent recommended me and I thought it was a claim. Big red maple removal on a small island in a concrete driveway, wires everywhere. Have to crane the big fat trunk out and too fat to wrestle into firewood. One day's work with 75 foot aerial bid $2200. intentionally low to match the nborhood as she told me it was not a claim upon arrival. $200 on the stump and $60 to scoop the excess. In front a busted up red maple over the roof. Busted absolutely everywhere. No climber could get to some of the stuff hanging by a thread over a brand new roof. $975. with again 75 foot bucket instead of my smaller one. No way around a day's work even with the big bucket and crane and BC 2000 on the take down alone.

Start quoting the removal and you can tell by the reaction it is a waste of time. Ask her what the bid she had was. $1500 for everything. Removal, wire drop, take all the huge trunk, grind the stump and clean it up, pick all the damage out of the front tree and lighten over the roof? Yup. 

What in the world is she expecting to beat that idiotic bid?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 11, 2009)

*work*

There are Mexicans in Memphis climbing trees for minimum wage! They have taken the cost way down in Memphis. If I know I'm biding against them , I'll purposely bid cheap just to beat them. Climbing trees , big trees , for minimum wage! A lot of them have left because the work is so slow!


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## sharkfin12us (Aug 11, 2009)

*bids*



GlenWimpy said:


> There are Mexicans in Memphis climbing trees for minimum wage! They have taken the cost way down in Memphis. If I know I'm biding against them , I'll purposely bid cheap just to beat them. Climbing trees , big trees , for minimum wage! A lot of them have left because the work is so slow!


Not every one goes for the lowest bid.For me word of mouth works great.Last half of july was slow and now mid august is picking up.I think when september comes around and kids are back in school things should pick up.If you do good work reasonable price and have full insurance.


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## treemandan (Aug 11, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I like to think that tree work is one of the last jobs where a real man can make a good living doing something that he loves. Heck, its not everybody that can make more money than a lawyer per hour with no education to speak of! This speaks of the sort of man this trade requires.
> 
> I'm not for more bureaucracy by any means...on the other hand I dont want to see the trade ruined by low-ballers.
> 
> I just go about and try and let my work speak for itself. Its coming together slowly.



No education to speak of? Then how are you able to write?


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## treemandan (Aug 11, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> How many years have you been out of the biz, though? If you are still active in it, which I doubt, how do you get the time to post more than four posts a day, everyday, for the past 7.5 years? I really want to know how that's possible. 4X365X7.5=10,950.
> 
> It's easy to be an "arm-chair arborist" when you haven't been in a tree for many years, or been out there seeing the hacks tearing it up for the same amount of time.



Hold on there Sparky. I am putting in a voucher for Treeco. I am sure he has some kind of comfy chair, most likely a couple but I doubt he takes them along to the job. Now if you did the math on me you wouldn't think I ever left the house.
I suppose if they mandated certification I would go get it to continue working. I also suppose that might be a good thing because of so many guys trying on tree work for size.
No don't go getting mad at me as I am only just saying.


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## mckeetree (Aug 11, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> There are Mexicans in Memphis climbing trees for minimum wage! They have taken the cost way down in Memphis. If I know I'm biding against them , I'll purposely bid cheap just to beat them. Climbing trees , big trees , for minimum wage! A lot of them have left because the work is so slow!



I know, I know. We deal with it all the time. It is pitiful and ridiculous. How can we start liking anything the government is doing when we are all so mad over the illegal alien problem they won't do anything about.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 11, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> I know, I know. We deal with it all the time. It is pitiful and ridiculous. How can we start liking anything the government is doing when we are all so mad over the illegal alien problem they won't do anything about.



They don't have to do anything but stay outta the way, problem solved and cheapo. Of course I don't want that until I get ticked when they have illegally stole my work.


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## BC WetCoast (Aug 12, 2009)

While certification is a reasonable idea, and I agree with it whole heartedly, it is still no guarantee. After all, how many unlicenced electricians or plumbers are out there doing work, even though there are regulations already in place.


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## mckeetree (Aug 12, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> how many unlicenced electricians or plumbers are out there doing work, even though there are regulations already in place.



Around here? Not many. There was quite a few 25 years ago but they sorta self police nowadays.


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## bighugetrees (Aug 12, 2009)

I lost job/bid of $1,200 to someone who could do it for $800. He fell a tree the wrong way through the neighbor's enclosed car trailer. That's when the owner found out he had no insurance for this type of work. Not sure if he felt the savings was worth it or not. Owner will not talk to me now.

I love "ill-eagle" companys.


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## stihlhere (Aug 12, 2009)

I bid a job to remove 28 longleaf pines 80'plus some dbh range from 16 to 40inches 3 over house 1with split top no access climb cut and catch at least 20 of them, grind all stumps and remove all debries. oyea there are so many small oaks around them you cant see the tree tops from inside the yard home owner dosent want any damaged. yard fenced in with privacy fence in town. he and a bid from some shirtless scratched up guys that had slid down trees for 4000.00 dollars his second bid was 5000.00 i was so desperate for a job i bid 6000.00 i think i can salvage 1000.00 worth of wood with out risking property damage.


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## arborworks1 (Aug 12, 2009)

That is way to cheap for a zero impact job. Plus think about how long 28 trees will take. The mulch from the stumps will take you at least a solid day hauling and grinding. You will not get it anyway being that you where 2000 bucks off the low bid.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 12, 2009)

stihlhere said:


> I bid a job to remove 28 longleaf pines 80'plus some dbh range from 16 to 40inches 3 over house 1with split top no access climb cut and catch at least 20 of them, grind all stumps and remove all debries. oyea there are so many small oaks around them you cant see the tree tops from inside the yard home owner dosent want any damaged. yard fenced in with privacy fence in town. he and a bid from some shirtless scratched up guys that had slid down trees for 4000.00 dollars his second bid was 5000.00 i was so desperate for a job i bid 6000.00 i think i can salvage 1000.00 worth of wood with out risking property damage.



$7000/28, or $250/tree. I guess I don't feel so bad, now. With the trees being as big as you describe, and some being a major hassle to rig down, you are working for peanuts. The joker bidding $4000----Heck, I'd let him have the gig, bring a lawnchair and some beers, and laugh my butt off watching him work for a few days.


----------



## GlenWimpy (Aug 12, 2009)

*work*

I'm doing trees for 375 , I once did for 875 , and I'm doing trees for 875 I used to do for 1675 , and I'm doing trees for 1275 I used to do for 2500!


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## BRCCArborist (Aug 12, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> I'm doing trees for 375 , I once did for 875 , and I'm doing trees for 875 I used to do for 1675 , and I'm doing trees for 1275 I used to do for 2500!





Why? If the tree cost $875.00, I say do it for that!


----------



## arborworks1 (Aug 12, 2009)

You know what the worst part is the economy is going to improve and the trees are going to continue to grow. They will still be there when people can afford them again. You should not lower your prices that much. People will expect you to keep low prices next time they use you. When you don't you lose the customer anyway


----------



## stihlhere (Aug 12, 2009)

You know what the worst part is the economy is going to improve and the trees are going to continue to grow. They will still be there when people can afford them again. You should not lower your prices that much. People will expect you to keep low prices next time they use you. When you don't you lose the customer anyway 

YOUR RIGHT BUT I HAVE LOST 8 BIDS IN A ROW ALL LARGE JOBS AND I'M HURTING ALSO I DIDN'T'T MENTION 10 or 12 can be topped and dropped if fence 1 fence can be taken down i priced the job with that stipulation. he also offered to trade it out in advertising on a few local radio stations as he is a local radio host. even so your right it is still peanuts if you could see the rest of the trees. luckly local co just got a tubgrinder and i can use my 8x20 dump trailer to dump all the mess less about 5 miles away for free. but the sawmill is 45 miles away!!!


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## mckeetree (Aug 12, 2009)

arborworks1 said:


> You know what the worst part is the economy is going to improve and the trees are going to continue to grow. They will still be there when people can afford them again. You should not lower your prices that much. People will expect you to keep low prices next time they use you. When you don't you lose the customer anyway



That is 100% right. And the thing is they equate YOU with the cheap prices. Lots of guys get reputations for being cheap and when they try to go up it doesn't work.


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## fishercat (Aug 12, 2009)

*truth is what it is.*



senechal said:


> No better way to drum up business than letting colleagues and clients know you have anxieties of different skin colours in the industry. WTF



why sugar coat it?


----------



## fishercat (Aug 12, 2009)

*you're welcome..................*



newsawtooth said:


> There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.
> 
> As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.



to pack your stuff and move to Europe anytime.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 12, 2009)

*you guys want change?*

start with voting for politicians that will actually do their job and represent YOU!
Not the illegals and deadbeats!

passing more laws and requiring more laws isn't gonna stop Johnny Chainsaw & Pickup.it also isn't gonna stop the homeowners from being cheap.

my buddy mows a lot of lawns.has always done it and does a great job.he's 100% legit.last year some yuppie in a golf course subdivision he has done for years dropped him over $3 a cut.i ain't kidding.

gun laws,licensing,permits,classes,and more government control over firearms sure slowed down crime. Give me a Friggin' break.

these potential customers have learned a game.they call everyone in the phone book and classified ads and gets an estimate.they pick the guy that will work for the least.eventually,these idiots are gonna work themselves to death or get hurt and they will start getting out of tree work.or a few homeowners are gonna get trees through their houses.unfortunately it has to happen.just the cycle of life.

i got a referral from a guy i know for a tree job last week.i call the woman and she says the big landscaping company took the tree down.she just needs the stump ground.i told her to have the landscapers do the stump.she says they don't do stumps.i told her i don't do landscaping and good luck.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 13, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> That is 100% right. And the thing is they equate YOU with the cheap prices. Lots of guys get reputations for being cheap and when they try to go up it doesn't work.



Very true. We started out with the intentions of being cheap to get our foot in the door. Thanks to the guys on this site I changed it pretty quick but we did a job about a year and a half ago for my bro's co worker, nice lady. My bro notoriously under estimates jobs but he's getting better. Anyway, we busted ass for a full day for only $650 on a good size sugar maple. This year the lady decides to get the next one taken down. Same size and obstacles. 3' dbh and about 75 feet tall, garage on one side, house on the other. Half day to rig down and chip up the other half we'd spend moving wood. I bid it at $1200 ( which is still super low, IMO, but she's a good customer. We've sold plenty of work because of her references. ) and she about fell on her ass. "NO WAY!", she cried, "That's almost twice as much!" What am I gonna do? Say I ####ed up last time but I can't work for peanuts now? Unprofessional reason to say the least. Most likely she'll find some hack to do the job super cheap and I'll never hear from her again...unless something goes wrong on the job. What can I do?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 13, 2009)

*trees*

I like it when you give someone a cheap "winter price' , then they'll call you back 3 years later , the tree is dead , new pool under the tree with 4 power lines , and want the same price!


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## Mike Van (Aug 13, 2009)

There's no magic answer guys - The people that constantly try to lo-ball you do it to everyone. Shopping for a car, new roof, septic system, whatever. They're going after CHEEP, some get burned, some don't. Worse yet is actually doing the job, then not getting paid or having to fight for your money.


----------



## newsawtooth (Aug 13, 2009)

*Not a bad idea*



fishercat said:


> to pack your stuff and move to Europe anytime.



Europe has a lot to offer. I would end up lying in a gutter in Amsterdam with a fist full of ones and contagious sores. 

I have reconsidered my stance on more regulations, especially at the state and municipal level. More regulation would be of little help and would likely makes things even more frustrating. A more powerful and relevant ISA or TCIA would be of the most benefit. If we could tie it to reduced insurance rates for people with accreditation it would be a start.


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## Brush Hog (Aug 13, 2009)

*Slow....... that's a understatement*

I start working for a company on Monday.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 13, 2009)

*work*

How about we just enforce the laws on the books and send the Mexicans home!


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## mckeetree (Aug 13, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> How about we just enforce the laws on the books and send the Mexicans home!



That is the comment a fellow from Sweden made the other day. He said it looks to him like we don't need a lot of new immigration laws we just need to enforce the ones we have (and send the Mexicans home).


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## ropensaddle (Aug 13, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Amen to that!



Me comprende vaghto +20000000000000000000000


----------



## fishercat (Aug 13, 2009)

*sorry newsawtooth....................*



GlenWimpy said:


> How about we just enforce the laws on the books and send the Mexicans home!



logic wins out on this topic.

we got enough people dipping into our pockets,getting the government or some association aint gonna make it any better i promise you that.i say turn every tree company you see running migrant labor in to the I.N.S..landscapers too.get involved in your local politics.that is the only thing that will really matter.if you don't start voting third party,nothing is gonna change. we can keep electing these deadbeat Repukes and Demacrooks till we are blue in the face and nothing will change for the better.i just keep wondering how long it will take the majority to figure this out.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 13, 2009)

*you're lucky you found something.*



Brush Hog said:


> I start working for a company on Monday.



no one seems to be hiring but i get a lot of inquiries if i'm hiring.


----------



## outofmytree (Aug 14, 2009)

The answer to the OP is....





Here!

Kicking ass and taking names downunder! Maybe you guys should move to Australia! Oh by the way, there are almost no Mexicans here. Although we have a few Kiwis I would like to see swimming east out of Botany Bay!


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## TimberMcPherson (Aug 14, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> The answer to the OP is....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then who would do all the work?


----------



## fishercat (Aug 17, 2009)

*i tell them the truth.*



Blakesmaster said:


> Very true. We started out with the intentions of being cheap to get our foot in the door. Thanks to the guys on this site I changed it pretty quick but we did a job about a year and a half ago for my bro's co worker, nice lady. My bro notoriously under estimates jobs but he's getting better. Anyway, we busted ass for a full day for only $650 on a good size sugar maple. This year the lady decides to get the next one taken down. Same size and obstacles. 3' dbh and about 75 feet tall, garage on one side, house on the other. Half day to rig down and chip up the other half we'd spend moving wood. I bid it at $1200 ( which is still super low, IMO, but she's a good customer. We've sold plenty of work because of her references. ) and she about fell on her ass. "NO WAY!", she cried, "That's almost twice as much!" What am I gonna do? Say I ####ed up last time but I can't work for peanuts now? Unprofessional reason to say the least. Most likely she'll find some hack to do the job super cheap and I'll never hear from her again...unless something goes wrong on the job. What can I do?



we underbid it last time but honored our word and price.we have a lot more equipment and bills since we did the last tree.

maybe she'll get an even higher quote and see that you guys are being more than fair with her.tell her to be thankful she doesn't live in New England.


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## fishercat (Aug 17, 2009)

*kind of a reversal to this story.*

i bid a job this morning for a lady.limb came off a swamp maple and ripped her power line down at 7 AM.guy stopped by in a red Volvo and told her he could take care of it for $700.she told him to get off her property.even the utility guy said he was nuts.i charged her $150 just because i had to bring a truck and chipper.i am not the cheapest guy around but i think i am fair.


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 17, 2009)

fishercat said:


> i bid a job this morning for a lady.limb came off a swamp maple and ripped her power line down at 7 AM.guy stopped by in a red Volvo and told her he could take care of it for $700.she told him to get off her property.even the utility guy said he was nuts.i charged her $150 just because i had to bring a truck and chipper.i am not the cheapest guy around but i think i am fair.



Lowballer! lol. As per your advice with my maple debacle, that's what I did. I was honest and upfront citing the fact that we are legit with insurance, advertising, equipment and so on. We did the last job super cheap yadda yadda yadda, you get the picture. We'll see if I get the job.


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## mckeetree (Aug 17, 2009)

fishercat said:


> charged her $150 just because i had to bring a truck and chipper.i am not the cheapest guy around .



Yeah, around here you would be the cheapest guy around with that kind of price. I think that might put you cheaper than the illegal Mexicans.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 17, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Yeah, around here you would be the cheapest guy around with that kind of price. I think that might put you cheaper than the illegal Mexicans.



Are there Illegal Mexicans in Texas?


----------



## fishercat (Aug 17, 2009)

*it's one friggin' limb!*



mckeetree said:


> Yeah, around here you would be the cheapest guy around with that kind of price. I think that might put you cheaper than the illegal Mexicans.



already laying on the front lawn.should be cut,loaded,cleaned up and gone in an hour or a little less.


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## mckeetree (Aug 17, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> Are there Illegal Mexicans in Texas?



Are there? Boy, what are you talking about? Let me put it this way, if you had a Greyhound bus and you started running it constantly back and forth trying to haul them back to Mexico you wouldn't even make a dent in them in 20 years.


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## treevet (Aug 17, 2009)

If ya ask most of them that IS Mexico.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> If ya ask most of them that IS Mexico.



Last year there were 375000 in MEMPHIS!


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## treevet (Aug 17, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> Last year there were 375000 in MEMPHIS!



damn!


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 17, 2009)

treevet said:


> damn!



Most of them have left , there is no work!


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## mckeetree (Aug 17, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> Most of them have left , there is no work!



I think they all went to Texas. Like Treevet said, most of them consider this Mexico anyway.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 17, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> I think they all went to Texas. Like Treevet said, most of them consider this Mexico anyway.



Lets just give Texas and California back to them! They can have Arnold , the DALLAS COWBOYS and Obama!


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## treevet (Aug 17, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> Lets just give Texas and California back to them! They can have Arnold , the DALLAS COWBOYS and Obama!



:agree2:

We get to keep McKeeTree tho. :kilt:


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## stihlhere (Aug 17, 2009)

heck no!!!!!!!!!! cant give TEXAS back us sons of the south are gona move there when they succeed. you know if Obummer gets reelected.


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## Slvrmple72 (Aug 17, 2009)

Succeed at what?


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## mckeetree (Aug 17, 2009)

Slvrmple72 said:


> Succeed at what?



It's a secret.


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## ozarktreeman (Aug 17, 2009)

dont worry mctree kay baley will send them back where they belong.


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## mckeetree (Aug 17, 2009)

ozarktreeman said:


> dont worry mctree kay baley will send them back where they belong.



Reckon? I would vote for an armadillo if that was it's campaign promise.


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## ozarktreeman (Aug 17, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Reckon? I would vote for an armadillo if that was it's campaign promise.



It,s one of the reasons I left weatherford.just took over.


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## BCMA (Aug 18, 2009)

What is the difference between an illegal immigrant working in the US, and an illegal, under-the-table, non-insured, illegitimate tree service?


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## outofmytree (Aug 18, 2009)

BCMA said:


> What is the difference between an illegal immigrant working in the US, and an illegal, under-the-table, non-insured, illegitimate tree service?



One will have signs in Spanish and the other other can't spell in any language?


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## Scottscape (Aug 18, 2009)

around here I haven't seen many mexican tree workers until last week. I was dumping and noticed a whole mexican asplundh crew pulling up... shame shame shame. I don't know how it is down south are there many mexican tree crews? Before long its going to be like every other trade they will take over.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 18, 2009)

BCMA said:


> What is the difference between an illegal immigrant working in the US, and an illegal, under-the-table, non-insured, illegitimate tree service?



One at least is here legally and at least someone in his family pays tax. Also volume 20 million illegal aliens how many or the other? Be honest , are you profiting off them or what?


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## BCMA (Aug 18, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Be honest , are you profiting off them or what?



I do not employ any Hispanics at this time. I do not employ any illegal immigrants- period. I pay all insurances, taxes, workmans comp., etc.. I run a 100% legal and Legitimate company. I see no difference between illegal businesses and illegal immigrants.


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## mckeetree (Aug 18, 2009)

Scottscape said:


> I don't know how it is down south are there many mexican tree crews?



Yes. Many.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 18, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Yes. Many.



Heh-heh. We both know that "many" doesn't even begin to describe the true number of those down here, these days.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 18, 2009)

*i see a difference.*



BCMA said:


> I do not employ any Hispanics at this time. I do not employ any illegal immigrants- period. I pay all insurances, taxes, workmans comp., etc.. I run a 100% legal and Legitimate company. I see no difference between illegal businesses and illegal immigrants.



illegal businesses still spend all their money in the local economy.illegal immigrants spend as little as possible here and send most of it back to were they came from.


----------



## gr8scott72 (Aug 18, 2009)

fishercat said:


> illegal businesses still spend all their money in the local economy.illegal immigrants spend as little as possible here and send most of it back to were they came from.



Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## BCMA (Aug 18, 2009)

fishercat said:


> illegal businesses still spend all their money in the local economy.illegal immigrants spend as little as possible here and send most of it back to were they came from.



Illegal business practices is what has and is putting our industry in the dumps. I find it amazing that anyone with a chainsaw can be a ""tree-cutter."" Low bid wins...right. BTW, I find that the general public many times do not regard tree services/tree care providers as a professional industry. By some we are viewed as just hacks running around in a truck with a chain saw looking for tonight's beer money.


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 18, 2009)

BCMA said:


> I do not employ any Hispanics at this time. I do not employ any illegal immigrants- period. I pay all insurances, taxes, workmans comp., etc.. I run a 100% legal and Legitimate company. I see no difference between illegal businesses and illegal immigrants.



At least one is legal to be in our country,I am glad you don't hire them it sounded as if you were jumping on their bandwaggon.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 18, 2009)

*again ,i disagree.*



BCMA said:


> Illegal business practices is what has and is putting our industry in the dumps. I find it amazing that anyone with a chainsaw can be a ""tree-cutter."" Low bid wins...right. BTW, I find that the general public many times do not regard tree services/tree care providers as a professional industry. By some we are viewed as just hacks running around in a truck with a chain saw looking for tonight's beer money.



our greedy crooked politicians,greedy employers and utility companies,drugs & alcohol ,welfare brats,the liberals,and illegal immigrants are causing people to try and earn some money to put food on the table,gas in the tank,and wood in the stove.

you don't seem at all concerned about the illegal political and business practices our elected a$$holes take part in!

i'll take the pickup and saw guys any day over the others.


----------



## Tree Pig (Aug 18, 2009)

fishercat said:


> our greedy crooked politicians,greedy employers and utility companies,drugs & alcohol ,welfare brats,*the liberals*,and illegal immigrants are causing people to try and earn some money to put food on the table,gas in the tank,and wood in the stove.
> 
> you don't seem at all concerned about the illegal political and business practices our elected a$$holes take part in!
> 
> i'll take the pickup and saw guys any day over the others.


 
Ill second that all, especially the LIBERALS. The liberals are at fault for everything that is wrong with this country, Schools, Welfare, Courts and now they are going to destroy our healthcare.


----------



## treevet (Aug 18, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Ill second that all, especially the LIBERALS. The liberals are at fault for everything that is wrong with this country, Schools, Welfare, Courts and now they are going to destroy our healthcare.



They destroyed the sanctity of our neighborhoods as well by not standing up for our police and allowing free reign of drug dealers. They also have, in the last year, allowed SECTION EIGHT vouchers to be used anywhere bringing violent crime and degradation into hard working towns and villages. (be happy to elaborate if anyone doesn't know what I mean).


----------



## BCMA (Aug 18, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> At least one is legal to be in our country,I am glad you don't hire them it sounded as if you were jumping on their bandwaggon.



I will hire anyone who is a legal citizen of this country, who is drug free, and is a hard worker. It does not matter to me their race, creed, or religion.


----------



## ozarktreeman (Aug 18, 2009)

Story on drudge conservatives now out number liberals in all 50 states.
Where the h_ll were they at 6 months ago!


----------



## BCMA (Aug 18, 2009)

fishercat said:


> our greedy crooked politicians,greedy employers and utility companies,drugs & alcohol ,welfare brats,the liberals,and illegal immigrants are causing people to try and earn some money to put food on the table,gas in the tank,and wood in the stove.
> 
> you don't seem at all concerned about the illegal political and business practices our elected a$$holes take part in!
> 
> i'll take the pickup and saw guys any day over the others.



Why not just say they are both wrong. Why do you side with those who do not operate a legal business in the tree care industry. Are you one of them? Do you hire employees and pay them under the table? Are you paying workman's comp? Do you carry liability insurance? Do you meet OSHA and ANSI safety regulations?

I see some of these videos and pictures of "tree guys" on the Internet with no PPE. I have a good notion to forward their videos and pictures to OSHA. As you can see, I'm a little tired of the illegitimate practices of those in our industry. How unprofessional can we be?


----------



## treevet (Aug 18, 2009)

I have been in business for forty years and operate kosher in every way. But that being said, most ops begin in shades of legitimacy and work themselves into conformity (likely, truth be told, so did you Board). Not wanting to stand up for hacks and fly by nights but they are head and shoulders above illegal aliens imo.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 18, 2009)

BCMA said:


> Why not just say they are both wrong. Why do you side with those who do not operate a legal business in the tree care industry. Are you one of them? Do you hire employees and pay them under the table? Are you paying workman's comp? Do you carry liability insurance? Do you meet OSHA and ANSI safety regulations?
> 
> I see some of these videos and pictures of "tree guys" on the Internet with no PPE. I have a good notion to forward their videos and pictures to OSHA. As you can see, I'm a little tired of the illegitimate practices of those in our industry. How unprofessional can we be?



i am insured and a registered business.i hire NO employees! i ain't payin' no one to ruin my equipment,argue with me,yak on the cell phone,not show up,etc.i work with other companies and we just split the job.it's alot easier and they have as much to gain or lose as me.works like a charm for me.

i wear ear protection and prescription glasses,and my climbing gear.sometimes i wear a ball cap to keep the sun out of my eyes.that's my PPE.you don't like it,don't work with me.i'll be in the tree getting it down while your unfolding your chaps and putting in your nose plugs.

i can send you a picture of me running the 372 in shorts and tennis shoes.you can send it in to OSHA when you tattle on me.

OSHA and ANSI don't pay my bills.

i'm a little tired of folks that got too much time on their hands to worry about what i'm doing.mind your own damn business and you might have some.

that is one of the principles this country was founded on.you'reone of the reasons this country is going to hell.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 18, 2009)

*that's what i am saying.*



treevet said:


> I have been in business for forty years and operate kosher in every way. But that being said, most ops begin in shades of legitimacy and work themselves into conformity (likely, truth be told, so did you Board). Not wanting to stand up for hacks and fly by nights but they are head and shoulders above illegal aliens imo.



we all started there unless we were born rich or won the lottery.


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 18, 2009)

BCMA said:


> I will hire anyone who is a legal citizen of this country, who is drug free, and is a hard worker. It does not matter to me their race, creed, or religion.



I agree with that whole hearted.


----------



## BCMA (Aug 19, 2009)

> fishercat said:
> 
> 
> > i am insured and a registered business.i hire NO employees! i ain't payin' no one to ruin my equipment,argue with me,yak on the cell phone,not show up,etc.i work with other companies and we just split the job.it's alot easier and they have as much to gain or lose as me.works like a charm for me.
> ...


----------



## treevet (Aug 19, 2009)

I do not believe OSHA has any control over self employed individuals.

But he could in turn report you for using the ISA cert. without your name and number above and below the designation. (and me as well)


----------



## fishercat (Aug 19, 2009)

*i never use a cert.so no go there.*

no use for the ISA.

i'm sure with all his idle time he will find something.


----------



## fishercat (Aug 19, 2009)

*i'll get some together for ya.*



BCMA said:


> > Sure- send the pictures. Include your name, address, and phone number. We will use this as a test run and see if OSHA well inforce their rules. They have told me that they can fine just from a picture.
> >
> > Years ago I stepped in and ran a competitor's company for a couple of weeks as the owner was getting over his chainsaw injury. He was wearing tennis shoes and cut the four bones across the top of his foot in half. He was not a happy camper.
> >
> ...


----------



## treevet (Aug 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> > no use for the ISA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunrise Guy (Aug 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> BCMA said:
> 
> 
> > and when they show up,i'll tem them where to stick the pics and their regs and rules.
> ...


----------



## ropensaddle (Aug 19, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> fishercat said:
> 
> 
> > If you wear no PPE while working in and around trees, you are hurting our profession while you expose yourself to needless injury and/or death. The damage to our profession comes, in part, from others seeing how you operate and then following suit. These individuals may not be as careful as you represent yourself to be, and when they get hurt or killed, the public at large sees that as an indicator of how unprofessional and unqualified tree workers are. That, in turn, leads to public resistance to hire us, in the first place, which leads to loss of income for those of us who operate in full compliance. Where you, personally, are concerned, or should be, is that your failure to wear PPE can turn a minor bump on the helmet to a major head injury which may put you out of commission temporarily or permanently and deprive that family of yours, that you profess to care about so much, of its major breadwinner.
> ...


----------



## GlenWimpy (Aug 19, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Sunrise Guy said:
> 
> 
> > While I agree and wear my ppe almost to perfection there are times when the hh falls off and I chose to not pull it back up. There are times when I refuse to wear my chaps because of heat which is a bigger threat to me personally. I started in this biz before they were mandatory and provide them to anyone using my saws but summer here and they stay in the shade neatly folded.
> ...


----------



## outofmytree (Aug 19, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> fishercat said:
> 
> 
> > If you wear no PPE while working in and around trees, you are hurting our profession while you expose yourself to needless injury and/or death. The damage to our profession comes, in part, from others seeing how you operate and then following suit. These individuals may not be as careful as you represent yourself to be, and when they get hurt or killed, the public at large sees that as an indicator of how unprofessional and unqualified tree workers are. That, in turn, leads to public resistance to hire us, in the first place, which leads to loss of income for those of us who operate in full compliance. Where you, personally, are concerned, or should be, is that your failure to wear PPE can turn a minor bump on the helmet to a major head injury which may put you out of commission temporarily or permanently and deprive that family of yours, that you profess to care about so much, of its major breadwinner.
> ...


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## fishercat (Aug 19, 2009)

*this is all hogwash.*

customers here want the cheapest price.that is all they are concerned with at the moment.normally they want the tree down without any damage.the customer is not concerned with chaps or safety boots.most folks don't even know what they are or that they exist.

i drive around and watch other tree companies when i see them.there are a lot here.very few wear more than ear and eye protection.

what gives us a bad name is oil spills,swearing loudly on their property.pants hanging below your butt,no shirt with a bunch of tattoos,leaving trash all over the customers yard,damage to property from sloppy work practices or heavy vehicles where they don't belong,poor or no cleanup or signs of drug or alcohol use etc.

i get 99% of my work from referrals and neighbors watching us.they were either watching me get stuff down without breaking anything or were impressed with the cleanup or all the equipment we used.

keep you liberal logic cause i ain't buying it.no customer has EVER said anything to us about PPE.


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## fishercat (Aug 19, 2009)

*sorry.*



treevet said:


> fishercat said:
> 
> 
> > Was referring to HIS cert...."BCMA"
> ...


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## fishercat (Aug 19, 2009)

*i don't prune.*



outofmytree said:


> Sunrise Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Ditto.
> ...


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> customers here want the cheapest price.that is all they are concerned with at the moment.normally they want the tree down without any damage.the customer is not concerned with chaps or safety boots.most folks don't even know what they are or that they exist.
> 
> i drive around and watch other tree companies when i see them.there are a lot here.very few wear more than ear and eye protection.
> 
> ...



:agree2:


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## outofmytree (Aug 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> customers here want the cheapest price.that is all they are concerned with at the moment.normally they want the tree down without any damage.the customer is not concerned with chaps or safety boots.most folks don't even know what they are or that they exist.
> 
> i drive around and watch other tree companies when i see them.there are a lot here.very few wear more than ear and eye protection.
> 
> ...



Yes. I believe that is true. People will rarely tell you that they don't like your manner of work. They just won't call you at all.

I have never worked in any business, in any industry, in any city where price was not part of a customers motivation for making a purchase. It was simply not the *only* reason. 

If most businesses in your area DONT wear PPE then you have an outstanding business oppurtunity. You can be the only business that DOES wear PPE. 

Whatever you do is your choice. You dont have to believe in basic business principles proved correct in countries all round the world for centuries. You don't have to believe in gravity either. But they both work.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 19, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Yes. I believe that is true. People will rarely tell you that they don't like your manner of work. They just won't call you at all.
> 
> I have never worked in any business, in any industry, in any city where price was not part of a customers motivation for making a purchase. It was simply not the *only* reason.
> 
> ...


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## mckeetree (Aug 19, 2009)

outofmytree said:


> Yes. I believe that is true. People will rarely tell you that they don't like your manner of work. They just won't call you at all.
> 
> I have never worked in any business, in any industry, in any city where price was not part of a customers motivation for making a purchase. It was simply not the *only* reason.
> 
> ...



Yep.


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## BCMA (Aug 19, 2009)

fishercat said:


> no customer has EVER said anything to us about PPE.



I was complemented last week by a client for wearing a hard hat and chaps. The public appreciate a proper job site set-up, proper road signs and traffic control.

We seem to draw clients that appreciate professionalism.


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## BCMA (Aug 19, 2009)

treevet said:


> But he could in turn report you for using the ISA cert. without your name and number above and below the designation. (and me as well)



treevet- Thanks for point out to me this oversight. You are correct that anyone who states they are a CA must include their number, including the logo. This I have corrected. May I encourage you to do the same.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 19, 2009)

*I just got this in the mail, along with my check--*



BCMA said:


> I was complemented last week by a client for wearing a hard hat and chaps. The public appreciate a proper job site set-up, proper road signs and traffic control.
> 
> We seem to draw clients that appreciate professionalism.



I just got the mail a few minutes ago. Along with a check to pay for a gig I mentioned in another recent post was a sheet of paper with e-mails between the association manager who hired us and the person whose property we were working on, an absentee landlord. This is the part I want all of you "I don't need no damn PPE" guys to read: "I'm a little more comfortable going with them because I know they will use harnesses and ropes for their protection." 

This same client has just hired my company to clear the slope and cliff these properties sit on, for fire prevention. As long as the city okays my dropping the trees and brush to the public land sixty feet below, to be gathered later, the gig should be smooth. At around two G's, I'll be happy to do it.

The major point to be made here, for those who just don't get it, is that *the public does notice who takes professional precautions while on a given job.*


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## Tree Pig (Aug 19, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> "I'm a little more comfortable going with them because I know they will use harnesses and ropes for their protection."


As opposed to all the non ppe tree climbers that are climbing with out harness and ropes. So we are back to talking about the illegal mexican tree workers again. No rope no harness no shoes no green card no pay el taxes.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 19, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> As opposed to all the non ppe tree climbers that are climbing with out harness and ropes. So we are back to talking about the illegal mexican tree workers again. No rope no harness no shoes no green card no pay el taxes.



Hmm--You haven't been keeping up with this thread, right? A few guys posted about wearing little, if any, PPE and how that was their right. Forget the ethnic angle. I was simply illustrating that clients do notice how we conduct our business at their job sites.


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 19, 2009)

I climb naked!:deadhorse:


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## Tree Pig (Aug 19, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Hmm--You haven't been keeping up with this thread, right? A few guys posted about wearing little, if any, PPE and how that was their right. Forget the ethnic angle. I was simply illustrating that clients do notice how we conduct our business at their job sites.



I have been keeping up with it. I see were your going with what your saying I just do not give as much creedance to the idea as you do. Most homeowners have no idea what appropriate PPE is for the tree industry. This FACT is backed up by your own email. "I'm a little more comfortable going with them because I know they will use harnesses and ropes for their protection.". As opposed to what? Standing on a ladder?Free climbing? No mention of Head gear, hearing protection or chaps. Though I dont disagree totally with your message I dont think your backing up your own case. I do think that Fishercat makes a better case in saying that by people watching how safe they work it brings them business and that the homeowner has no idea if he should be wearing chaps or a hard hat and a very very large amount of new work in this business is from word of mouth or repeat customers. I myself wear chaps most the time on the ground only and do wear head gear most of the time but I will admit as has been seen in a prior post I will work without one at times also. I do on the other hand ensure anyone else working for me wears all appropriate PPE.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 19, 2009)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I have been keeping up with it. I see were your going with what your saying I just do not give as much creedance to the idea as you do. Most homeowners have no idea what appropriate PPE is for the tree industry. This FACT is backed up by your own email. "I'm a little more comfortable going with them because I know they will use harnesses and ropes for their protection.". As opposed to what? Standing on a ladder?Free climbing? No mention of Head gear, hearing protection or chaps. Though I dont disagree totally with your message I dont think your backing up your own case. I do think that Fishercat makes a better case in saying that by people watching how safe they work it brings them business and that the homeowner has no idea if he should be wearing chaps or a hard hat and a very very large amount of new work in this business is from word of mouth or repeat customers. I myself wear chaps most the time on the ground only and do wear head gear most of the time but I will admit as has been seen in a prior post I will work without one at times also. I do on the other hand ensure anyone else working for me wears all appropriate PPE.



This thread has gone on and on and---- In going back through it I see that my posts were attributed to other posters and their posts were attributed to me in the quotes section. Maybe somebody purposely did that, maybe the server is acting up. Either way, I'm making this my last post in this thread, that I started long ago. All I was trying to get across in my last few posts was that clients do take notice of those who operate safely and those who take extra measures to ensure that they stay safe. If the public is made aware of proper PPE for tree workers, something I strongly hope happens in the near future, you can bet that those who "macho it out" in shorts, tennis shoes and gimme caps will get fewer and fewer gigs, as it should be. 

Accidents happen. If you could avoid them at all times and/or plan out when they would occur, there wouldn't be any accidents, would there?


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## GlenWimpy (Aug 19, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> This thread has gone on and on and---- In going back through it I see that my posts were attributed to other posters and their posts were attributed to me in the quotes section. Maybe somebody purposely did that, maybe the server is acting up. Either way, I'm making this my last post in this thread, that I started long ago. All I was trying to get across in my last few posts was that clients do take notice of those who operate safely and those who take extra measures to ensure that they stay safe. If the public is made aware of proper PPE for tree workers, something I strongly hope happens in the near future, you can bet that those who "macho it out" in shorts, tennis shoes and gimme caps will get fewer and fewer gigs, as it should be.
> 
> Accidents happen. If you could avoid them at all times and/or plan out when they would occur, there wouldn't be any accidents, would there?



Due to this thread , I will climb only in a complete 17 century armor knight suit! with Sword!


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## treevet (Aug 19, 2009)

BCMA said:


> treevet- Thanks for point out to me this oversight. You are correct that anyone who states they are a CA must include their number, (AND NAME) including the logo. This I have corrected. May I encourage you to do the same.



You're welcome BCMA. Was just pointing out for posterity that you may not operate in the pristine realm you think you do. 

I do not plan to conform with the logo issue as I like to be a little of the rebel. I do not make any secret of who I am and where I am from and their rent a cops will pursue me as they have in the past and demand adherence to their rules. 

And....you "have corrected" this situation ....how?


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## arborist (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm having the best year ever since 2001 when i began my own tree service.
i can just keep up with one ground man and myself.still quite small,but at times wishing i actually had a climber i could call with his own ground man.
I'm just starting to hit this level and it's feeling nice!
i know i couldn't work another climber 40 hrs a week tho yet,so im not sure just how to go about this step.if work keeps coming in like this,it's going to have to be on the top of my list to figure out tho lol.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 20, 2009)

arborist said:


> I'm having the best year ever since 2001 when i began my own tree service.
> i can just keep up with one ground man and myself.still quite small,but at times wishing i actually had a climber i could call with his own ground man.
> I'm just starting to hit this level and it's feeling nice!
> i know i couldn't work another climber 40 hrs a week tho yet,so im not sure just how to go about this step.if work keeps coming in like this,it's going to have to be on the top of my list to figure out tho lol.



Just use sub check insurance and references and or get to know them.


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## arborist (Aug 20, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Just use sub check insurance and references and or get to know them.



right.this part i figured.however what holds me back is the fact knowing i cannot use him full time yet.not sure how much luck id have finding a climber i could count on being on call upon request know what i mean?
I know as a climber before going on my own,i looked for full time work.
just not sure id be able to find a skillful seasoned climber that i could count on being able to handle any tree at any time.
i guess i would schedule work id have him do on say mon-wed or something but man,you know how things can change in a hurry.hmmm
perhaps it wouldn't be hard to find someone on call.but i fear a "good" "reliable" climber is working already.
though this thread suggests their may be plenty out there willing to work anytime and are available.makes me think i should have the secretary start looking into this for me.
holy cow,i better get to bed lol!
lots of time to finish up two jobs going,but won't be enough to start a new one anyway,so not worried about starting to early.tho that changes often too lol.better hit the hay.


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## fishercat (Aug 20, 2009)

*it all depends where you are.*

i guess you are hiding from someone.

i climb as a sub all the time.

like Rope says verify insurance with their agent and see if they have any references.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 20, 2009)

arborist said:


> right.this part i figured.however what holds me back is the fact knowing i cannot use him full time yet.not sure how much luck id have finding a climber i could count on being on call upon request know what i mean?
> I know as a climber before going on my own,i looked for full time work.
> just not sure id be able to find a skillful seasoned climber that i could count on being able to handle any tree at any time.
> i guess i would schedule work id have him do on say mon-wed or something but man,you know how things can change in a hurry.hmmm
> ...



Like fisher said depends where your at and one solution is have several subs that are willing to help when needed. It is unrealistic to expect them to leave their own gig to take care of you but if you have a line up then you can shuffle them in to position. I stress check them well, your reputation depends on their actions. I don't get enough to stay busy yet but if a big storm comes I have several out of town members here I would call to help. It is a matter of harnessing your market share. Sure you have to pay them most if not all your profit but after they have went back home you are the business that provided help when they needed it most. I missed my first opportunity in the hurricanes, I won't miss the next. I found in those situations having the ability to bring in the troops frees you up to bid more work as if your in the book you are the one being called. Problem is; they won't wait long it has to be done and fast. Whatever you chose to do make sure to check with customer to make sure work is to their satisfaction and if not shed the sub and fix the customer at all costs.


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## treevet (Aug 20, 2009)

I think it is often overlooked that a great living can be provided by just staying as a climber/owner and a groundman. I have been doing it for 40 years. It just takes an above average work ethic, and a high level of operation. This includes having as much equipment as they (bigger ops.) do and being able to answer the questions/handle any job they can.

If you get over loaded for whatever reason.....the comp. sucks, little competition around, a storm hits, you are exceptionally good at what you do, you have movie star looks, you become popular in social circles, you have exceptional knowledge, etc., etc,....whatever......

just significantly raise your prices until you are not overloaded. Supply and demand. I am quite sure a 2 man op. can make more money than a much larger op. considering bottom line. You gotta bust a$$ tho and know as much as the big boys do, 

Lot being said on this thread, with the same predictable posters condescending to others in regards to PPE. I think it is much more important that the level of knowledge about trees be brought up to look professional.
Conflicting opinions in regards to treatments of trees and/or removals, nec. or not.....imo....is what makes our profession an embarassment.

Shigo used to say, if they gotta have a national climbing championship, why cannot they have a national tree knowledge championship?


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## outofmytree (Aug 20, 2009)

> Lot being said on this thread, with the same predictable posters condescending to others in regards to PPE.



Dunno if I need to write better or you need to read better but I can assure you there was no intent to demean or belittle anyone in what I said. I absolutely believe in full PPE for all team members. I once sent my wife home for not wearing her boots. Needless to say I cooked for myself that week. 



> Shigo used to say, if they gotta have a national climbing championship, why cannot they have a national tree knowledge championship?



I suspect that would produce a smaller list of competitors TV. I would still enter if only to show my peers that I have actually read one book. Not a big book I will admit, but I did read one. Once. Honest.


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## outofmytree (Aug 20, 2009)

treevet said:


> I think it is often overlooked that a great living can be provided by just staying as a climber/owner and a groundman. I have been doing it for 40 years. It just takes an above average work ethic, and a high level of operation. This includes having as much equipment as they (bigger ops.) do and being able to answer the questions/handle any job they can.
> 
> If you get over loaded for whatever reason.....the comp. sucks, little competition around, a storm hits, you are exceptionally good at what you do, you have movie star looks, you become popular in social circles, you have exceptional knowledge, etc., etc,....whatever......
> 
> just significantly raise your prices until you are not overloaded. Supply and demand. I am quite sure a 2 man op. can make more money than a much larger op. considering bottom line. You gotta bust a$$ tho and know as much as the big boys do,



I absolutely agree. It has cost me about $120k extra turnover a year to retire my wife as groundie and employ two guys when all expenses are factored in. Finding the right balance of guys on the road and work you do yourself is an art form in itself. I am clearly more Picasso than Da Vinci at the moment.


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