# Never milled wood before-is making this staircase possible?



## Renee (Oct 25, 2008)

We're going to be building a home in a couple of years, and we're in the planning phases. I want to build this staircase (just the stair treads part of it) out of wood we cut from the land.







We're going to have to cut a 800 foot long road through the land to get to the build site, and then clear the actual area for the house, so even though we're going to save as many trees as we can, I think we'll have enough wood to work with. Most of the trees are oak, some white, some red.




We'll be doing most of the construction ourselves.

So, my question is about how to make those treads. I'm assuming we'd have to take a log, cut it into a basic square, bigger than our final size, then dry it and plane it down. But how to dry them? How much shrinkage should we expect? This is something we've never done before.

The staircase will be going up into a loft, not a main living area, so it can be steeper and narrower than a normal staircase. If it's going to take a year (or more) to dry the wood adequately, that's OK, we can put up a temporary one until it's ready.

So, any advice on this? Is this doable? Thanks!


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## Wolfking42084 (Oct 26, 2008)

Renee, 
Welcome to AS. This is a great idea and actually something you very seldom see. All they're doing is taking the heartwood and squaring it up. You would have some nice boards out of the logs also to do some framing with or whatever you choose. Since you are going to be using oak for the actual stair, you may consider making the cut-outs they'll sit on out of oak also. Just so it will match. As far as the wood shrinking, you may just get with the individual who saws the wood for you or a lumber expert. It will all depend on how many inches square you decide to make them. Have fun planning! Logan


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## carvinmark (Oct 26, 2008)

Hello and welcome to AS. Not sure if you need to follow any building codes where you are, but you may want to check so you will know what size you will need to cut. Where I am, we are required to have a min 10" tread. To get this, I would cut a 10,1/2" square and let them dry, then re-saw when you are ready to build.


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## BobL (Oct 26, 2008)

Hi Renne,

Now that I have seen your design I have a couple of suggestions. 

If you mill these at minimum tread size, unless you get them kiln dried they will take a long time to dry. The design also consumes a lot of wood and energy using whole 10 x 10 beams. Have you thought about milling the treads at 12 x 2.5 and then make just one 8 x 8 beam and cutting some square cookies and fix these to the ends of the treads. If you cut that beam with the heart offset by an inch and tuck them under the stair by an inch or two you won't hardly see the join.

You will then have a lot of wood left over for other great projects.


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## excess650 (Oct 26, 2008)

Its doable, but will take a lot of good logs. It will take a 17" minimum diameter tree(without bark) to make a 12x12 cant. You'll have to account for shrinkage on the width, and have extra length if you want to remove the worst of the end checking. After the cants are milled(presuming that you plan to do it), I would suggest taking them to a local mill and having them dry them in a kiln. Air drying 12x12 oak might take several years.


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## woodshop (Oct 26, 2008)

excess650 said:


> ... After the cants are milled(presuming that you plan to do it), I would suggest taking them to a local mill and having them dry them in a kiln. Air drying 12x12 oak might take several years.



Welcome to AS Renee... I agree with what folks have been telling you, this is certainly doable, but at a price, and I'm not talking money. A tree sawn into a large enough cant for a stair tread would take a long time to dry completely, several years depending on how you do it. In the process, it would continue to shrink, twist and check. Depending on how you fasten that huge cant to the stair stringer, it will be more difficult to end up a couple years down the road with flat level strait consecutive treads. When walking up stairs, treads that are not dead even and where your foot thinks the next one should be is asking for trouble. Kiln drying something that thick is also not an easy task as kiln schedules are usually set up for standard 4/4 to 12/4 thicknesses (1 inch to 4 inch). All that said can this be done? Sure. Just understand that this is one of those things that probably looks easier than it actually is to do. Another option, although might be a bit pricey for a project this huge, would be to use PEG. You submerse the wood in this stuff and it replaces the water in the wood and stabilizes the beam. Not sure how you would do the kind of volume you need for this project though. Three or four 55 gal drums full of PEG? $$$$$$

Keep us informed as you clear the land and build your house. There is a wealth of information here when it comes to cutting wood, milling and drying it.


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## excess650 (Oct 26, 2008)

Woodshop,
Point taken regarding kiln schedules! What do you think of constructing a pole building with metal roof to act as their own kiln? Too haphazard or lacking too much control? I'm thinking that Arkansas should be plenty warm, and a pole building with a little ventilation should allow the wood to bake 9 months of the year.

Granted, oak 12x12s will be very heavy, so equipment will be necessary to move the cants.


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## Renee (Oct 26, 2008)

You guys are awesome! Wonderful information so far. 

Where we're building is outside city limits, and the only building codes we have to follow are for the septic system. There will be no inspections other than that. Since the staircase won't be in daily use, I'm comfortable with 10" treads and 8" risers--it's a little steep, but I think acceptable for the application. I do understand how important it is for the stairs to be consistent dimensions. 

We have done a lot of construction work in the past and feel pretty confident about our basic woodworking capabilities, we've just never actually cut our own lumber. 

I figure we can cut each tread out of the base of a separate tree, where they will be thicker. We're trying to avoid cutting down any of our monster white oaks, but we will have to take out several medium sized ones that should be thick enough at the bottom. I'm assuming there will be quite a bit of waste, but since the wood would likely be going to firewood otherwise, I'm OK with that. 




> If you mill these at minimum tread size, unless you get them kiln dried they will take a long time to dry. The design also consumes a lot of wood and energy using whole 10 x 10 beams. Have you thought about milling the treads at 12 x 2.5 and then make just one 8 x 8 beam and cutting some square cookies and fix these to the ends of the treads. If you cut that beam with the heart offset by an inch and tuck them under the stair by an inch or two you won't hardly see the join.



We're considering this, kind of a fake log. We're going to have steel railing, and I figure we can use steel banding to cover the seam if we go that way. It's probably the most practical solution, but something about the solid log thing still appeals to me. We're going to have a half-bath under the stairs, and if we did whole logs they could form the ceiling of that room, which would be cool.

So can anyone give me rough numbers on this thing if we did try to do the solid logs?

Assuming 15 stairs (so that we can throw away the worst two) that are 3.5' long and 10x10 each, how much is a lumber yard likely to charge for kiln drying? I'd guess we can cut them rough and keep them outside (covered, of course) while we're building (probably at least a year, since we're DIY), then move them to the kiln...how long do they need to be there and how much would that cost?

Would it be better to rough cut the treads and then move them immediately to my mom's garage or attic? I don't know the procedure here. I'm OK with putting in a temp staircase for a year or so, but if it's going to take more than 3-4 years to dry them, we'll need to look at faking it. 

It's almost midnight here, so I'm going to go to bed. I'll check back in the morning if anyone has any questions for me. Thanks again,

R


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## slabmaster (Oct 26, 2008)

Hi,If you are going to dry it yourself,i would put it inside with a fan and dehumidifyer in the building out of the sun.White oak is difficult to season successfully,but well worth the effort if done properly.It is a nice wood.Red oak would be easier to season as it is very porous unlike white oak which has inclusions called tyloses.If you use both,you will have to treat them differently when seasoning. Good luck with your endevor! Mark


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## Backwood (Oct 26, 2008)

That seems like a LOT of weight to put in an attic ? You might even need to think about putting extra support piers under where the staircase will be cause that will be a lot of weight.
In ideal conditions it will take 4/4 oak at least a month to dry in a good kiln, it takes 6/4 approx 50% longer, and takes 8/4 approx 250% longer. It would take a looong time to kiln 40/4 ( 10'' thick ) would probably be really expensive IF you could find somebody to do it .
The idea of a thinner tread and a false end cap seems like a good idea. Would still work for ceiling because looking up at ceiling you wouldnt know how thick it was anyway. If you cut the treads 1 1/2" thick I would still let it air dry for at least a year.


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## Metals406 (Oct 26, 2008)

I just got done building some timber-framed stairs for a house I was working on. One thing to consider is how the beams are milled. You want someone that knows what they are doing, in relation to the grain, so to avoid stresses in the finished product (ie: timber bind).

The stair treads I had milled were 11" X 3". These were not hardwood, but Doug Fir. An 8" rise isn't steep at all?.. That is, however, the maximum amount of rise according to the IRC. 

As the other guys here have stated, twist, checking, etcetera are a consideration. Another option would be to have the mill, cut you stuff 2" thick, and laminate the treads... Based on how you oriented the grain pattern, it could turn out rather pretty.

Log/timber work is heavy... You'll want to calculate point loads, and have _thickened footings_, or another appropriate load bearing member to carry that load (ie: Helical piers). 

Good luck!


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## carvinmark (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree with added supports for the weight and that an 8" rise isn't too steep at all, probably about a 40-42 degree angle and that is comfortable.


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## Lloyd H (Oct 26, 2008)

*8 inch risers*

My father an old carpenter of many years always said the rise and run of one step should equal 17 inches for the stair to feel right. Also already brought up, uniformity in rise and run is real important as your body only needs two steps to fix itself for the rest of the steps, ie. 2 steps can vary a little 3 steps or more gotta be the same.


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## cityevader (Oct 26, 2008)

Cool idea for stairs.

But that got me thinking...how are logs for log cabins prepared/dried. My friend lives in one with very substantially sized logs.


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## Renee (Oct 27, 2008)

slabmaster said:


> Hi,If you are going to dry it yourself,i would put it inside with a fan and dehumidifyer in the building out of the sun.White oak is difficult to season successfully,but well worth the effort if done properly.It is a nice wood.Red oak would be easier to season as it is very porous unlike white oak which has inclusions called tyloses.If you use both,you will have to treat them differently when seasoning. Good luck with your endevor! Mark


Hm. We have more red oak than white, and the white oak are prettier trees, so we'll probably just go with red oak for this project for consistency.



Backwood said:


> That seems like a LOT of weight to put in an attic ? You might even need to think about putting extra support piers under where the staircase will be cause that will be a lot of weight.
> In ideal conditions it will take 4/4 oak at least a month to dry in a good kiln, it takes 6/4 approx 50% longer, and takes 8/4 approx 250% longer. It would take a looong time to kiln 40/4 ( 10'' thick ) would probably be really expensive IF you could find somebody to do it .
> The idea of a thinner tread and a false end cap seems like a good idea. Would still work for ceiling because looking up at ceiling you wouldnt know how thick it was anyway. If you cut the treads 1 1/2" thick I would still let it air dry for at least a year.


 Good point on the ceiling. It sounds like faking it is going to be our best bet. 



Metals406 said:


> I just got done building some timber-framed stairs for a house I was working on. One thing to consider is how the beams are milled. You want someone that knows what they are doing, in relation to the grain, so to avoid stresses in the finished product (ie: timber bind).
> 
> Log/timber work is heavy... You'll want to calculate point loads, and have _thickened footings_, or another appropriate load bearing member to carry that load (ie: Helical piers).
> 
> Good luck!


 Hadn't considered the extra weight, excellent point. I don't know what timber bind is, could you elaborate?



cityevader said:


> But that got me thinking...how are logs for log cabins prepared/dried. My friend lives in one with very substantially sized logs.


 Good question. I have no idea. 


So assuming we go with faking it, is it worth it trying to mill this stuff ourselves, or would it be better to just buy the lumber and maybe just make the end caps from our trees? My husband already likes the idea of new tools (milling equipment) and we could possibly also make the exposed beams we're going to need to hold up the loft, which would probably pay for the equipment (wild guess on my part). The actual labor isn't a huge consideration.

If we have to pay to have the wood kiln dried off-site, does that eliminate any savings you get by providing the wood, or do you still come out ahead?


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## Ed*L (Oct 27, 2008)

Just a WAG here...those stair treads all have the pith in them, I'll guess they were made from smaller trees that wouldn't be large enough to get a good sawlog from. Probably would have ended up as firewood.

Ed


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## woodshop (Oct 27, 2008)

Renee said:


> ...If we have to pay to have the wood kiln dried off-site, does that eliminate any savings you get by providing the wood, or do you still come out ahead?



Depends... but as was said already, kiln drying large thick timbers takes a LOT more time (read $$$$$) than standard thicknesses. If you're going with the thinner stuff and faking the look, and you provide your own timber my guess is you will still come out ahead depending on the lumber market in your area. Prices for hardwoods vary all over the board depending on availability, supply and demand at the time... lots of things. Myself, I'd like the idea that part of the house came from trees on site. That in itself would be worth a lot to me personally. But that's me. As for milling your own and thus saving money... depending on how elaborate you get, a big bore saw (new) and a 36" alaskan mill like the MK II will run you around a grand all together by the time you purchase several chains and other accoutrement's. Thousand bucks could buy a lot of hardwood already cut, dry and ready to use. Then again, once you have the mill, you have it for future projects. Also, you could go the used big saw route and cut that price down 3-400 bucks. Lots of options. do a search on csm... or ripsaw... or alaskan mill and you will find tons of pics of mills in action here in this part of the forum.


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## Backwoods (Oct 27, 2008)

I Like the solid wood idea over the faking it idea because when you cut the end off the beam to use for end caps you have relived the tension in the wood and the end caps will split wildly if they have the hart still in them , making it difficult to maintain the fake look for long. 
If the wood is milled shortly after clearing a path thru the woods and stored in a metal building until the house is close to being finished then remill the beams square before installing them they may not be completely dry but most of the movement should be out of them and they will dry in place. 
If you end seal the logs you will still want to allow 3”- 4” of trim on the ends If you do not end seal then allow 6”- 12” of trim on each end of the beam. Leaving the beams in log form will save on end checking but will add to the drying time.
Cut five of six extra so that you can pick the ones that dried the best. You will always find a use for the other blocks.


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## Brmorgan (Oct 27, 2008)

Renee said:


> Hadn't considered the extra weight, excellent point. I don't know what timber bind is, could you elaborate?



Timber bind (also called compression wood) is internal stress in a crooked log or one from a leaning tree. The tree tries to correct its growth and realign with the sunlight, which results in heavier growth on the underside of the tree while it tries to push up. When a board is cut from this wood, it can quite literally spring off the saw and can warp beyond use instantly.

And as for the amount of shrinkage to expect, the average for North American woods is +/- 4% across the grain, I'd say Oak might be 3%. I'd say if you wanted a planed, smooth 10X10 to cut 10-3/8" green minmum, 10-1/2" would be better - you can always remove extra.


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## deeker (Oct 27, 2008)

Brmorgan said:


> Timber bind (also called compression wood) is internal stress in a crooked log or one from a leaning tree. The tree tries to correct its growth and realign with the sunlight, which results in heavier growth on the underside of the tree while it tries to push up. When a board is cut from this wood, it can quite literally spring off the saw and can warp beyond use instantly.
> 
> And as for the amount of shrinkage to expect, the average for North American woods is +/- 4% across the grain, I'd say Oak might be 3%. I'd say if you wanted a planed, smooth 10X10 to cut 10-3/8" green minmum, 10-1/2" would be better - you can always remove extra.



I cut up a doug fir log that was a leaner. It was fun watching how far the boards would spring up off of the cant as the band finished the cut. Even dingged up my blade guard a couple of times.

The boards will be used as "shorts" only. 

I am going to cut up a couple of leaner trees in the next week or so. The owner wants to see if we can use them as beams......I have my doubts.

Kevin


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## Brmorgan (Oct 28, 2008)

deeker said:


> I cut up a doug fir log that was a leaner. It was fun watching how far the boards would spring up off of the cant as the band finished the cut. Even dingged up my blade guard a couple of times.
> 
> The boards will be used as "shorts" only.
> 
> ...



The sawmill that my dad (and I as a student) used to work at has a curve saw on the small log line that can follow the bend in crooked trees, and cut boards consistently parallel with the pith. Then, once the boards are through the kiln at high-temperature and the lignin sets, they stay pretty straight. It's actually an amazing thing to watch, you'd never think you could get anything but firewood out of some of the logs.


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## Backwoods (Oct 28, 2008)

Brmorgan said:


> The sawmill that my dad (and I as a student) used to work at has a curve saw on the small log line that can follow the bend in crooked trees, and cut boards consistently parallel with the pith. Then, once the boards are through the kiln at high-temperature and the lignin sets, they stay pretty straight. It's actually an amazing thing to watch, you'd never think you could get anything but firewood out of some of the logs.




I have run one of those as well, and for a small log operation, they are the cats meow. It was made by USNR.


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## Backwood (Oct 28, 2008)

Improper drying can also put stress in the wood. It sucks when you put a perfectly straight 1x8 on the table saw and rip it in half only to end up with two 1x4's that are so crooked they are usless. 
Oak is one of the hardest woods to dry. If you put some in a box with a fan and dehumidifier it would be easy to dry it to fast and end up with a bad honeycomb problem ( the wood fibers would seperate and you would be left with wood full of small holes ) You probably wont even notice it until you plane the surface off of it. If you do this you want to make sure that you remove no more than 10 gallons of water per 1000 board feet of wood per day. no more than 5 gallons per day if you are drying 500 board feet .... etc...

Finding a local portable sawmill to come to your place and mill the wood on site might be the best way out. Saw it , sticker it , and air dry it until you are ready for it, then use it. It dosent " have to be kiln dried "


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## Renee (Oct 28, 2008)

OK, a few more questions: How are logs used in making log cabins prepared? 



Backwoods said:


> I Like the solid wood idea over the faking it idea because when you cut the end off the beam to use for end caps you have relived the tension in the wood and the end caps will split wildly if they have the hart still in them , making it difficult to maintain the fake look for long.
> If the wood is milled shortly after clearing a path thru the woods and stored in a metal building until the house is close to being finished then remill the beams square before installing them they may not be completely dry but most of the movement should be out of them and they will dry in place.
> If you end seal the logs you will still want to allow 3”- 4” of trim on the ends If you do not end seal then allow 6”- 12” of trim on each end of the beam. Leaving the beams in log form will save on end checking but will add to the drying time.
> Cut five of six extra so that you can pick the ones that dried the best. You will always find a use for the other blocks.





> Does anyone disagree with Backwoods here? Using the solid logs is going to be the most visually appealing, and if the wood cracks it really isn't a problem in this application. It IS a problem if it warps significantly after they're in place, making the stairs uneven.
> 
> Would 2-3 years of air drying (assuming 10x10 logs) be enough to stabilize the wood for this application?
> 
> ...


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## Brmorgan (Oct 28, 2008)

If you build green, the amount of shifting and warping will likely depend on how well the pieces are fastened together and to the house structure. If they're really well secured with lag bolts, pegged mortise & tenon joints, etc., there probably won't be a whole lot of movement other than the inevitable shrinkage. Just don't use nails for any of it, they'll gradually pull out. The biggest problem I see with building green in this case is if you want to have really nice, smooth, finished surfaces on the beams. In the first place, it is much harder if not impossible to get such a surface on green wood, and even if you do, the surface will change as it dries. Some areas will shrink more than others, resulting in an uneven surface, and you might even end up with a crack forming on the top where it would be least desirable. So at the very least be prepared to re-finish the pieces some time after installation. If you have the time/patience to wait though, I would personally do as Backwoods suggested and cut them and let them dry out for a while, even 6 months or so, if for no other reason than to see where any cracks are going to form which will let you better decide how the pieces should be used. Cutting more than you need (both in length and number of pieces) is good advice too, you never know if some will want to twist and/or crack beyond usability, and substituting an odd piece later will present different problems.


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## woodshop (Oct 28, 2008)

Renee said:


> ...Does anyone disagree with Backwoods here?


 Nope... pretty much right on target in my opinion. Especially the part about making sure you have several extra so you can cull the ones that crack or split excessively.


Renee said:


> Would 2-3 years of air drying (assuming 10x10 logs) be enough to stabilize the wood for this application?


Hard to say... lots of variables, mostly exactly how and where will they be milled, stickered and then dried. My educated guess is for a 10x10 three years would be enough if there is enough air getting to the stack and they were relatively short, say 5-6ft long at the most. Then again, I've cut down trees that have been standing dead for more than 5 years that had wet lumber when I milled them. Not quite as saturated as a live tree, but certainly not dry. Water just doesn't leave large thick cants quickly.


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

Renee said:


> OK, a few more questions: How are logs used in making log cabins prepared?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Renee (Oct 28, 2008)

slabmaster said:


> Renee said:
> 
> 
> > The best log cabin logs are already dry dead standing trees that have already seasoned before thay were cut down.You get less movement from those.Log homes settle even after they are assembled which is usually taken in to account at time of build.Some but not all use dead standing timber for logs for this very reason,less settling after built.Hpoe this helps. Mark
> ...


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## slabmaster (Oct 28, 2008)

That would speed things up alot! As long as they aren't rotton.They will be harder to mill,but you will also have a jump on seasoning them.


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## Renee (Oct 28, 2008)

Ah HA! I think we have found the key. Dead trees it is.


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## Brmorgan (Oct 29, 2008)

60 acres with oak? Lucky :censored:!!!


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## BlueRider (Oct 29, 2008)

One of the things that was brought up was shrinkage and how much. Using the shrinkage calculator On WoodWeb you will find that a red oak 12" x 12" will shrink almost 1" Not sure how acurate the calcuator is for figuring out 80% - 10%change. it is acurate for a 15%-8% change

When your trees are first cut about 80% of their weight will be water. the bigest amount of shrinkage and cracking will happen in the first stage of drying as the moisture content comes down to around 30%. in a 2" thick board this process usually takes less than 3 months depending on the weather(temp & humidity). the thicker the board the less warpage. I can mill a log at 1" aand it will warp like a roller coaster but if I mill it at 3" there will be very little warping. I have milled a few 10"x10" pine beams and had very little if any warping. The biggest problem wth beams that size is not with any drying defect but rather pure and simple shrinkage.if yo look at the end of a 12"12" beam and draw a line from corner to corner this line will measure a bit over 16". as the beam shrinks it will compress towards a point in the midle (assuming you box the heart like in the photos- and I think this would be a good idea) what I am trying to get at is that the shrinkage per inch along the diagonal will be the same ans the shrinkage per inch on the simple width which will mean the overall amount of shrinkage along the diagonals will be more and ultimately result in a curved tread. as I said at the begining the bulk of all this will happen in the first stage of drying.

I think the design is awsome and would encourage you to persue it. Another option would be to search out some salvaged building beams to use for that detail and use your oak else where in the project. You may even be able to work out a trade.


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## trimmmed (Oct 29, 2008)

As a functional stair, I think the design sucks. It does have a "look" however that is no reason to install an unsafe stair.

Without a nosing I don't believe it can pass any building code. Happy heel catchin!

You might be able to mill an angle on the riser to give it draft, to overcome the lack of nosing. Look for a cross section for a poured masonry stair as an example.


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## woodshop (Oct 29, 2008)

My experience as a logger years ago, as well as dropping them since then, is that dead standing trees are not as "wet" as living trees, but they still have a LOT of moisture in them, and unless they've been dead so long they are grey skeletons, they only really dry out completely when cut up/milled. However, in a tree that has been dead or even one just slowly deteriorating and dying over a period of years I would be careful of bugs. I was given a huge white oak one time that had just been dropped after it had been dying for a good 5+ years. It was still solid though and I was anticipating some nice white oak lumber. When I sliced it open I was greeted with a heartwood riddled with beetle larva similar to the kinds that inhabit the inside of bark on dying trees... looked a lot like these critters I found milling a pecan tree this past summer here in this pic..




.
Air drying would not kill these guys, they would continue to munch away long after you milled them in to stair treads. Kiln drying if hot enough would do them in though. Point is be careful of dead or dying trees, as they eventually get full of bugs at some point.


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## Backwoods (Oct 29, 2008)

Lunck Time.


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## Brmorgan (Oct 30, 2008)

Those look about the same as the wood borer grubs we have up here - they grow up into thin black beetles about an inch long, with really long antennae up to twice the length of the beetle itself. PS, the grub shrapnel is a nice touch.


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