# anyone not been hurt?



## frashdog (Jun 6, 2006)

Doing tree work that is? My buddy is trying to tell me that every tree guy/gal has or will get hurt. I disagreed with him that there has to be some really careful folks out there. Anyone not get hurt, or hurt a lot? 

Argument stemed from me climbing for prune jobs solo. Nothing technical. I do not think twice about other solo high risk events such as rock/ice, motorcycle, skiing, white water kayaking. Actually I think I'm more careful solo knowing that I have no one else to help me out , or to show off for, so stay sharp and think! 

Personally I think driving in you're vehicle is the most dangerous thing we do due to the frequency rates and forces involved, let alone yellow paint is not a good barrier to prevent a car coming in the other direction from swerving a few feet in your direction.


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## 1CallLandscape (Jun 6, 2006)

I climbb solo and im pretty cautious also but there is always margin for error. last week i got wacked in the face by a pretty large limb while cutting with the power pruner. branch slid down the pole and hit me, happened in a blink of an eye. im ok but it smartened me up alot.... everybody will sustain an injury of some type. the risk just comes with the job. like a chef cutting himself with a knife type of a deal.
-mike


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## SilentElk (Jun 6, 2006)

If you disregard normal branch slaps and scraps and an occasional bruise, I have never been hurt requiring medical attention or where I should have recieved it. No stitches or broken bones or the like. I have had a gazillion scratchs on my arms though.


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## pbtree (Jun 7, 2006)

I have been hurt, and I cannot think of anyone I know in this business who has not been...


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## treeseer (Jun 7, 2006)

Good for you, Dan--hope you keep that record into retirement.

Here's the same question answered in 2003:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=8598&highlight=injured


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## NYCHA FORESTER (Jun 7, 2006)

That is one reason your insurance rates are so high..........because you (tree workers in general) are willing to accept getting hurt on the job is acceptable, that it is OK, that you are not a true "tree man" unless you have the scars to prove it.


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## treeseer (Jun 7, 2006)

nycha you are so wrong--I got more scars than I do brains, but they are a source of shame, making me not a tree man but a recovering tree man-iac who is now big on PPE and deliberation.

The fact that I'm now training my 16-yr old also makes me extra careful...


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## 1CallLandscape (Jun 7, 2006)

NYCHA FORESTER said:


> That is one reason your insurance rates are so high..........because you (tree workers in general) are willing to accept getting hurt on the job is acceptable, that it is OK, that you are not a true "tree man" unless you have the scars to prove it.



No matter what job you have your gonna get hurt sooner or later. nobody is "willing" to get hurt or even wants to have to tell that they have been hurt but i guess thats why they call them accidents. Its the guys that get hurt from sheer stupidity that need a good slap in the face to wake them up to safety some times. Personally ive had a few wake up calls, nothing major like nicking my self with the bowsaw, wacked in the face by branchs, pulled muscels...... nothing needing a hospital trip but ive seeen some other guys take some pretty nasty falls, gafs to the leg, saw wounds and some real gory stuff.

-mike


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## Dadatwins (Jun 7, 2006)

NYCHA FORESTER said:


> That is one reason your insurance rates are so high..........because you (tree workers in general) are willing to accept getting hurt on the job is acceptable, that it is OK, that you are not a true "tree man" unless you have the scars to prove it.



Actually the rates are so high because the insurance industry lumps together every untrained and unskilled homeowner and landscraper wanna-be-tree-climber that falls out of a tree, or drops a tree on a structure together with the professional arborist that have mostly never been seriously hurt or caused major damage. 
Back to the question. I can honestly say aside from a few bumps, scrapes, and handsaw nicks I have not been hurt doing treework. I did break my knee slipping on a wet running board getting into a truck years ago. I also popped an ankle after getting hit by a bus while flagging traffic, and popped a wrist climbing a ladder on a brush truck that later got infected after surgury to repair the torn tendon. Funny thing is all these injuries occured either before working on the tree or after, but during the actual cutting of the tree I have been fine. Guess that makes me a safe tree climber but a disaster before and after.


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## maxburton (Jun 7, 2006)

I've been doing tree work for only 5 years, and the worst I ever had was a Walnut tree split open while my lanyard was around it. I got squeezed pretty good and went to the hospital to make sure nothing got broken or messed up. I was fine, though. Other than that, bruises and cuts. And, of course, the occasional flow from a hand saw nick.

I never work alone, I want someone to always be there to make the call if neccessary.


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## clearance (Jun 7, 2006)

Hurt to me is when you cannot work the next day, wage loss injuries count, they raise the rate for the employer and usualy mean serious. I have got stitches lots of times, bruises and scratches are not worth mentioning. Cut myself bad when I was spacing back in '94, only wage loss during tree work. What is important is that you learn from experience. Treeseer is ashamed of his scars, buddy, they mean more than tattoos, I would rather the couple of big scars on my arm than the names off my exes in a heart.


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## avalontree (Jun 7, 2006)

*Confidence ='s pain*

I think I know your buddy. Anway, I've been dancin in trees for a few years now, from Georgia to Rhode Island. Not much to climb here in Upstate New York, but as a friend of mine says, "Dude, you're in the lungs of the universe, and the universe is everywhere." Whatever that means.

Everyone gets hurt doing trees and the more you think you won't the more likely you will. I've knicked myself and scraped my self and had white pine tops come back at me that should of had a rope (learned from that one) that I fortunatly avoided. And of course I've had climbing saws get ripped out of my hand from too big willow trees (learned from that one). 

Scars are teachers and, unfortunatley in this business, you need teachers.

All it takes is one mistake that may have had nothing to do with you.

Like Max said, " I never work alone"

God aint gonna call 911 for ya.


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## frashdog (Jun 7, 2006)

> Everyone gets hurt doing trees and the more you think you won't the more likely you will.


Good thing I don't think I will not get hurt. 


> Scars are teachers and, unfortunatley in this business, you need teachers.


 I see injuries and close calls as lessons along my self taught course on life. Pay enough attention and you might just learn some good stuff that can help you out later.

Getting hurt is part of life not just tree work. From the most "percieved" high risk events we take part in to seemingly routine safe events, people have sustained minor injuries or even died you said it


> All it takes is one mistake that may have had nothing to do with you.


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## frashdog (Jun 7, 2006)

So, then there are poeple that have not been hurt doing tree work.....I mean yet.


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## woodchux (Jun 7, 2006)

I've been hurt doing construction long ago.
But never while doing tree work.(not seriously)


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## 1I'dJak (Jun 7, 2006)

i'm hurtin right now thats for sure! big scabby sores on my shins from the spurs... i'm doing forestry topping right now so i'm on the spurs all day driving up the big trees... with time off and res work the shins were a little soft... finally bought some stretchy soccer shin pads... bloody well hurts though...should've done that the first day!


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## rebelman (Jun 7, 2006)

I've trimmed and removed many thousands of trees. In 94 i slipped a new spike deep behind my knee. A few years ago a pole saw came hurtling down and cut a finger good. Those ten or so stitches didn't keep me off the job at all. Not bad I'd say. I cut myself with my climbing saw all the time, Just not while it is running.


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## sal b (Jun 7, 2006)

there's hurt and then there's injured. you can work hurt but you cant work injured


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## pigwot (Jun 8, 2006)

When the tri-cut handsaws came out I nicked a finger. Another time I had just sharpened a chain, went to step over the fallen log to start bucking it up, and the cuff of my pants caught on the stub of a small branch. That caused me to trip. I caught myself, but not before I hit my knee on the bar of the non-running chainsaw. The freshly sharpened tooth I kneed deftly cut a slice of flesh right over my kneecap and about 2 inches long. Since it flexed so much it would not stop bleeding until I got it sewn up. Came right back and finished clearing the lot. Only fell once, about 8 inches: had stepped up on a branch, and was tending slack in my climbing line when the apparently solid oak 6" diameter branch broke off. Been lucky compared to many others in this area...


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## Grizzly (Jun 8, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I've never been injured climbing other than a million small scratches.
> 
> I did get a nasty chain saw cut to my leg back in 87' but I was lucky and it was just a flesh wound.



those scratches come with the job. no matter what o do to protect my skin, either my hands get all black and cut up, or my arms turn a blod red.

No major accidents with the chainsaw, but when i was putting my chain on one day, i sliced my finger open trying to move the chain. Man I hated that saw.:deadhorse: :angry2:


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## mikecross23 (Jun 8, 2006)

I've strained my back 2 times and wacked my wrist w/ the hand saw one good time. Never missed any work though from injuries. Haven't been doing it for 30 years like others. 4yrs part time and the last 4 yrs full time. I have had too many close calls that never resulted in anything serious. 

-Mike-


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## TimberJack_7 (Jun 8, 2006)

Nothing more here than a little love bite from my 385xp that resulted in about 20 large stitches. Fortunately that one was on the ground.

Other than no injuries, knock on wood.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 9, 2006)

1I'dJak said:


> i'm hurtin right now thats for sure! big scabby sores on my shins from the spurs... finally bought some stretchy soccer shin pads... bloody well hurts though...should've done that the first day!



How are those soccer shin pads holding up?

Ive been cut at 90 feet pretty bad to the point of almost passing out.
Started rappelling down and another climber in the tree noticed my rope was to short for me to make it to the ground, my bud tied on another rope and lowered me. 

Today I was rushing thru a low bid trim job. Bought some new speedline caracbiners and was using them as a redirect. The gate cut me good! One finger over from my pinkey. I use that finger to push the line onto the carabiners. Then a stink bug got in my eye. Yeah! that sucked. I just kept climbing.
I get home load out my gear to put up and wham! Barely knicked a knuckle well it bleeded all over my shirt, i looked like a horro movie character walking in the house. Ive not been knicked twice in a day in a long while ... guess I was due. This is the very nature of our business dont be coy or elegant about it. Rule out all you can that can go wrong , the rest is pure luck.
Knock on wood.


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## rebelman (Jun 9, 2006)

I'll save Tom Dunlap the post, many of these injuries could have been prevented by wearing gloves.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 9, 2006)

Rebelflame, you wear them sissy gloves all the time just like your hard hat you sleep with uh huh. You wear glasses to bed fraid some boobie gonna poke your eye out Id imagine so nerd.

Oh and by the way rebelnerd, I have 3 pair of brand new... worn out.... high dollar... baseball gloves, I use mostly on pine... in the truck.

I hate guys like rebelnerd, I hate large compaines that call me when I'm in bed, asking me do to what their 20 year old company cant.


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## oldugly (Jun 9, 2006)

Been hurt, but never injured.
Took a ride down a white pine when I was still fresh in this business, no one ever told me they got brittle when it was 10 below, tied into the top, leaned back to set the knot, and took the top with me to the ground...landed in about 3 foot of snow..no damage, except to the tree.

Took a spike through the heel, right through both sides of some brand new boots back in 86, was real upset about the boots. Then realized that my foot was what the spike was caught on. I finished the tree, iced it down, and was back to work the next day...(still cussin about the boots)

Had a real smart-ss boss as a groundman one time, kept insisting I take pieces bigger on an elm removal. Took a piece too long, and the ground men weren't able to control it, pinned my arm against the tree, had to lower the piece over my arm....(nice rope burn...not serious) That was the last time I ever worked for another tree service. As the boss was picking himself up from the ground, (he had a little run in with an angry climber when I got down) I was walking away.

After 27+ years I have never lost a day to an injury doing tree work...I still NEVER work alone. IT is the stupidest move you can make. Your friend is right. No matter how good you are, there is always the unexpected, unseen, and the accident you did not expect. I have never been hurt in a "hard" tree. Always the easy money ones.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 9, 2006)

I got 20 years to go before I am thru. Oldugly, you got off lucky with the few injuries you got. Thanks for your candor oldugly. My friend can barely feed himself and weighs 75 pounds. I say friend we worked aloft fside by side for over 3 years, @ 42 with 20 + yrs exp he was good on removals but rarely tied in. I send him pics of trees I do.


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## oldugly (Jun 9, 2006)

Any tree man that survives awhile in this business has to have luck as an ally. No matter how good you are, there is still an area left to chance.


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## Treeman67 (Jun 9, 2006)

frashdog said:


> Doing tree work that is? My buddy is trying to tell me that every tree guy/gal has or will get hurt. I disagreed with him that there has to be some really careful folks out there. Anyone not get hurt, or hurt a lot?
> 
> Argument stemed from me climbing for prune jobs solo. Nothing technical. I do not think twice about other solo high risk events such as rock/ice, motorcycle, skiing, white water kayaking. Actually I think I'm more careful solo knowing that I have no one else to help me out , or to show off for, so stay sharp and think!
> 
> Personally I think driving in you're vehicle is the most dangerous thing we do due to the frequency rates and forces involved, let alone yellow paint is not a good barrier to prevent a car coming in the other direction from swerving a few feet in your direction.


 i may suggested you becareful what you say, becuz your cocky attuide , you will next to get hurt or be killed, Common thing with cocky climber with pride and/or ego , you may think... naww it won't happen to me.. but it can happen anydays. one thing from experence is learned from mistake, then after that become more aware every aspect what i do and skills, i once felled 40 feet from tree and hit a ground so hard every bone my body cracked but i walked way with no broken bone but sored. i been cautious climber every since. i had several scrachtes skin from chipping, there times the hanger came down right upon me without warning, that why hard hard saved my head , i had some rope rigged just lifted me up the air so fast that rope is burning through my glove and get rope burn on my hand 1st and 2nd degreed burn.
many thing can goes wrong, no matter how careful you are how safe you are to be. this line of work dangerous and always will be. i been doing tree work for long time, but to me i think you just newbie of alittle treeman with ego. guy alike you i have zero tolerates. humble yourself alittle groundie ...lol
Treeman67


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## rebelman (Jun 9, 2006)

A partner of mine used to say "safety belts are for fags." I still don't know if he was joking or what. He doesn't climb any more, he fell forty feet after cutting his rope and put a four inch crack in his pelvis.


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## woodchux (Jun 9, 2006)

Stupid is as stupid does


Be Safe


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## frashdog (Jun 9, 2006)

> i may suggested you becareful what you say, becuz your cocky attuide, you will next to get hurt or be killed, Common thing with cocky climber with pride and/or ego, you may think... naww it won't happen to me..


Thanks for the concern, I think there's a bit a misunderstanding here. I never said it would not happen to me. I have already been hurt plenty, last one was 20 stiches to the lower lip after a log rolled at me and a limb caught me. I have a many lessons in life resulting in hospital visits. I do not see myself as a "cocky climber", yes I am new, but I feel I do not exceed my abilities alone, notice I said nothing too technical solo.

My point of the whole post was to see if there was infact people that had not been hurt doing tree work. Not to proclaim my imortal climbing prowess. 



> many thing can goes wrong, no matter how careful you are how safe you are to be. this line of work dangerous and always will be.


duuurr, keep it up maybe you'll tell me something I do not know.



> i been doing tree work for long time, but to me i think you just newbie of alittle treeman with ego. guy alike you i have zero tolerates. humble yourself alittle groundie ...lol
> Treeman67


do you really talk like that? Was it the 40 foot fall, or the hangers? Peace bro, I'm about a humble a dude as they come.


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## Grizzly (Jun 10, 2006)

rebelman said:


> A partner of mine used to say "safety belts are for fags." I still don't know if he was joking or what. He doesn't climb any more, he fell forty feet after cutting his rope and put a four inch crack in his pelvis.



Its best to cut where your certian that the rope isn't there.
He must ahve been jokeing, or safety was #2 on his job list.
What was he trimming when he fell?:blob5:


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## rebelman (Jun 10, 2006)

He was topping an eighty foot red oak for removal. The tree had lot's of suckers and I guess he got his climbing rope around one on the branch he was cutting. It's weird, his new ground man asked him starting up if he used two tie ins, "nah." I wasn't there, we were competitors here and partners in Memphis. He was an all star coast guard guy, helicopter jumper, sick of safety regulations. I finished the tree while he was getting the log roll in the Little Rock VA. They bolted him back together, he still rides a harley and get's in bar fights, does hot chicks. He missed a stump by three feet.


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## jmack (Jun 10, 2006)

maxburton said:


> I've been doing tree work for only 5 years, and the worst I ever had was a Walnut tree split open while my lanyard was around it. I got squeezed pretty good and went to the hospital to make sure nothing got broken or messed up. I was fine, though. Other than that, bruises and cuts. And, of course, the occasional flow from a hand saw nick.
> 
> I never work alone, I want someone to always be there to make the call if neccessary.


try the prussik fiction saver, sounds intense


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## jmack (Jun 10, 2006)

rebelman said:


> A partner of mine used to say "safety belts are for fags." I still don't know if he was joking or what. He doesn't climb any more, he fell forty feet after cutting his rope and put a four inch crack in his pelvis.


 nice one


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## jmack (Jun 10, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Rebelflame, you wear them sissy gloves all the time just like your hard hat you sleep with uh huh. You wear glasses to bed fraid some boobie gonna poke your eye out Id imagine so nerd.
> 
> Oh and by the way rebelnerd, I have 3 pair of brand new... worn out.... high dollar... baseball gloves, I use mostly on pine... in the truck.
> 
> I hate guys like rebelnerd, I hate large compaines that call me when I'm in bed, asking me do to what their 20 year old company cant.


 and I disdain fools like yourself who bring down the industry as a whole


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## clearance (Jun 10, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Rebelflame, you wear them sissy gloves all the time just like your hard hat you sleep with uh huh. You wear glasses to bed fraid some boobie gonna poke your eye out Id imagine so nerd.
> 
> Oh and by the way rebelnerd, I have 3 pair of brand new... worn out.... high dollar... baseball gloves, I use mostly on pine... in the truck.
> 
> I hate guys like rebelnerd, I hate large compaines that call me when I'm in bed, asking me do to what their 20 year old company cant.


All bow down to Extreme, I and all the rest are unworthy, mere imitations of real climbers. Extreme, you are the man, I grovel at your feet. And Jmack the word is spelled "disdain".


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## xtremetrees (Jun 10, 2006)

TY TY dont be a puss your way over due to get hurt bad get ready for it.
Jmack,
12 yrs aloft and I been hurt bad yet... Yeah, I'm way over due. If you think youll get a lifetime of climbing without injury your the fool. Why dont you try climbing with a few more safety gadgits. Maybe youll feel comfy then.

Only thing brings me down is your total blindness to just how many folks do get hurt doing what we do.Your delusional you will get hurt bad or killed IN THE ARBORIST PROFESSION.

You probably throwball your takedowns??!??! HAHA sounds like you work for the man.

No clearance Im not all that I'm not even an above average climber.
I do however try to live up my name


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## treeseer (Jun 10, 2006)

xtreme, ever hear of Alcoholics Anonymous?

4th step is a ????? (female dog, edited) , but worth it.

Take a deep breath and find another outlet, willya?


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## xtremetrees (Jun 10, 2006)

I have lost a few teeth to trees. But I wouldnt consider it an injury like old man said never lost a day of work because of um


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## xtremetrees (Jun 10, 2006)

Noob treeseer,
I guess youve come along here to the AS in what the last 4 years?
I have taken a few uncalled for shots at you just because you are BCMA.
I was being unfair I may add. (estimates thread)I still pratice some of what Dr. Bill taught. So I plead the 5th.
But AA as an institution is a JOKE it is a institution of peer review filed with hypocracy youd be better off converting to catholocism, your corundium it seems you've no myth to follow.
It is not easy explaining our profession (Check out my videos) leastly via a medium such as a computer.

Treeseer, I was a guru of AA for 12 years friend.....
Cheers!


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## trees4est (Jun 10, 2006)

clearance said:


> And Jmack the word is spelled "disdain".


Really, _you_ don't want to start calling people on spelling. Actually, I don't think anyone should start, it's a lost cause. No offense to anyone, spelling isn't everything. Neither is punctuation, syntax, vocabulary...umm, modifiers, articles, conjunctions, metaphors, abstraction...they're just something.
This isn't english class, though. This is a forum for quite a wild variety of people doing a wild variety of things for and to trees.
But about the thread topic, I think everyone knows you work with sharp implements and cut things or move big heavy wood things around with big heavy metal things, you might at least get a boo-boo sometime.


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

*I hate to say it, but thats funny*



rebelman said:


> A partner of mine used to say "safety belts are for fags." I still don't know if he was joking or what. He doesn't climb any more, he fell forty feet after cutting his rope and put a four inch crack in his pelvis.



karma.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 10, 2006)

I think we should all bow down to the spikeless removal wizard from Moscow, USSR. That dude rocks.


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

> trees4est said:
> 
> 
> > Really, _you_ don't want to start calling people on spelling. Actually, I don't think anyone should start, it's a lost cause.
> ...



Im an English teacher and I agree with you, more or less. Sometimes gettin the point across is, well, the point. Ever see that thing on the Net where every word is jumbled except the first and last letter?
A vrey itnresitneg atirlce


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## avalontree (Jun 10, 2006)

> I'm about a humble a dude as they come.


[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah? What does being "humble" mean to you?


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## frashdog (Jun 10, 2006)

> Oh yeah? What does being "humble" mean to you?


mostly being aware of when I f:censored:k up or when I do some thing amazing just smile and know. Most people do not take well to "horn tooters". Like "Oh I done this that and the other thing", "Been there done that." Course there's a grey area between "horn tootin" and giving some credibility to back up a story. 

Can include when to ask a question, apologize, praise, subbort. For me the right choices usually come from the "a voice" in my head, not being the ego. If I listened to my ego I'd probably be in jail or dead.

you said it "karma"


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## Grizzly (Jun 11, 2006)

frashdog said:


> mostly being aware of when I f:censored:k up or when I do some thing amazing just smile and know. Most people do not take well to "horn tooters". Like "Oh I done this that and the other thing", "Been there done that." Course there's a grey area between "horn tootin" and giving some credibility to back up a story.
> 
> Can include when to ask a question, apologize, praise, subbort. For me the right choices usually come from the "a voice" in my head, not being the ego. If I listened to my ego I'd probably be in jail or dead.
> 
> you said it "karma"



So then in the tree industry, who would be comsidered a celebraty trimmer?
Motivation is a major factor in climbing those big trees;especially taking then down. you need to be able to not only emphacise that your the best, but to show them you are the best. 
Go get 'em!!!!


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## jmack (Jun 11, 2006)

clearance said:


> All bow down to Extreme, I and all the rest are unworthy, mere imitations of real climbers. Extreme, you are the man, I grovel at your feet. And Jmack the word is spelled "disdain".


 ayuh thanks clear


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## jmack (Jun 11, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> TY TY dont be a puss your way over due to get hurt bad get ready for it.
> Jmack,
> 12 yrs aloft and I been hurt bad yet... Yeah, I'm way over due. If you think youll get a lifetime of climbing without injury your the fool. Why dont you try climbing with a few more safety gadgits. Maybe youll feel comfy then.
> 
> ...


 son you better go pack your lunch


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## jmack (Jun 11, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> Why am I the only C.A. out of 5 in my town not spikeing trims then Jmack?
> 
> I think we should all bow down to the spikeless removal wizard from Moscow, USSR. That dude rocks.


 omfg what r u talking about


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## frashdog (Jun 11, 2006)

> So then in the tree industry, who would be comsidered a celebraty trimmer?


good question, I'm curious, any nominations? 


> Motivation is a major factor in climbing those big trees;especially taking then down. you need to be able to not only emphacise that your the best, but to show them you are the best.
> Go get 'em!!!!


I hear ya. Walk the talk.


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## treeseer (Jun 11, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I count all ISA TCC competitors as noteworthy and serious climbers.
> 
> Dan



I second Dan's nomination. If you have not seen an ITCC competition, you have not seen the best.

"Motivation is a major factor in climbing those big trees;especially taking then down. you need to be able to not only emphacise that your the best, but to show them you are the best."

Grizzly, removals are a mechanical operation. Yes they take skill, but all they result in is wood and chips. Leaving a tree better than you found it, able to stand for the long haul, that takes a different level of thought along with mechanical skill.

Arboriculture is an Art and a Science.

And the only grammar that's really important is that nice lady who birthed your parent and makes you cookies.


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## GlennG (Jun 12, 2006)

I`m calculating and cautious. My ego is humble. Not counting the bumps and scrapes that come every day I have never been hurt. I always tie in twice and think about every cut. I want to be around for a while because I truly enjoy this work. A few years ago I was attacked by a clients dog and I was out of work for a week and a half. Thats the only real injury I`ve suffered yet.

Kinda like the tortois and the hare , the tortois always comes thru day after day. 
Brains beats balls in this business .

Glenn


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## xtremetrees (Jun 12, 2006)

I think for me becomming more experienced at it can be diasaterous.
I have a tendancy to just let the notch fuse blow as spidy puts it.
Of all the things can go wrong, must remeber to maintain one more I know alot is already being asked of me but I just maintain an escape route.
"There are old climbers and bold climber" but not old bold climbers is because of my tndacy to go bold either with a small tie in or ig rope it out, because boredom. Over time we all go big, I must remeber like old ugly said the easiest tree ,move, what not gets me.. I must keep trees difficult and strenous. To me that means small pieces longer days but i must have this self discipline.


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## TreeTopKid (Jun 13, 2006)

Yes quite a few times over the years. Never too badly. The worse time was probably when I neglected to tie a knot in the end of my rope. I under estimated the height of a Lime tree and was foolishly flying down my rope at the end of a job and basicaly catipulted of the end onto a scalfold pole which went into my leg without even peircing my chainsaw trousers/pants. Five stitches inside eleven outside ouch!

Still have a perfectly round scar today!:monkey:


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## oldugly (Jun 15, 2006)

*celebrities*

I watched one climbing competition...those guys are fun to watch, exciting and efficient...but I was thinking what would justify celebrity status.

Another definition given was pathetically politically correct and lifeless...something about ansi, and isa. (Good organizations, but c'mon we are talking about celebrity status...the true great ones.)

My definition would be the ones the customer (our true judges) remember long after they are gone. The comments that stick in my mind from my customers around here:
"Dallas was amazing to watch, he got everything out of here without hurting a thing."
"Paul did all my tree work, he took care of me, was a nice guy, and always was there when I needed him."
" I worried about that tree for years, and finally called Wayne. He took it out in a matter of a couple of hours...I thought it would take days."

Another definition would be the ones that use their abilities to further the industry, and make our world a little safer. For example the climber that wrote the TCC, or the founder of Davey's (who as far as I know started the first climbing school in the US. but I might be misinformed on my history). The founder of this site, although I do not know his climbing ability...he used what he did know to further communication between tree men. Another climber I knew 30 years ago had a saddle custom made for himself. It was years later that I saw the first butterfly style saddle in production...I personally think they stole his design...but again I could be misinformed.

Who are the true GREAT ones? Probably unheralded by the world, but well remembered as teachers, examples, and innovators. I may not agree with him all the time but I think Tom would rate up there. Another one that would ruffle a few feathers around here would be Clearance, and in the same breath some of his biggest and most vocal critics. To define the great ones is to separate the egos from the abilities, and to differentiate between those who speel standard catch phrases which are heralded as popular, or wise, from those who think for themselves, create new and better ways of doing our business, and use their abilities to better our lives, or their customers.

The GREAT ones I know I could count on one hand, and have several fingers left over...Good climbers, there are alot of them, The GREAT ones few and far between.
Just the opinion of an old man with a bad attitude.


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## rebelman (Jun 15, 2006)

.

Another definition given was pathetically politically correct and lifeless...something about ansi, and isa. 

Do you climb spikeless and make standard cuts? If you do how can you say that it is pc bs and lifeless. It takes commitment and dedication. It's not a popular catch phrase, it's real world scratching for a living. Something has to seperate the tree men from the hacks. A minimum inerpretation of ANSI pruning standard does that. If you make the cut, you're plenty famous.


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## oldugly (Jun 15, 2006)

*spikeless*

I try to climb spikeless on any tree I trim, but if I cannot do it efficiently, the spikes go on. Now for a little reality beyond the pc bs. Show me one tree, just one, that has died due to spike marks...and I will buy into it full heartedly. 

After 15 years in my own business, and 12 working for others I have come accross alot of previous trims. Note...I did NOT say a tree that has died due to poor trimming. There are many of them out there, and truly these propetuators of topping, and stubbing, and "dress" cutting are hacks. But now that you threw down the glove...show me one, just one that has died from spiking.

That is what I mean by political correctness vs. reality. You have been taught the EVILS of spikes, but without verification of its proof. I will NEVER say spiking a tree is good for it, do not misinterpret this, I do avoid it whenever I can still do the tree efficiently and give my customers a reasonable price....but yes I still use spikes on some trims. Show me the proof, then start calling me a hack youngster. 

It is egos like yours that make the word ARBORIST a four letter word in a lot of good people's vocabulary. 

As far as ANSI goes or the ISA...I think they are great organizations trying to better the quality of our profession, and although I belong to neither, I give them the ultimate respect. I also respect the new methods of climbing, and by all means I would never discourage others from learning them. There are many great innovations that have bettered our life, and the health of the trees, so I am not against change, nor am I above learning something new...I do everyday.

Its brainwashed repettition of utlitarian superlatives, and ultimatums that raise my dander some. Its then I step back and ask why? Show me the proof. 

Rebelman...I fear you do not live up to your name, rather you are part of the brainwahed masses, unable to rebel, because you are unable to open your mind to the possibility that not all you were taught in school...is true.


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## rebelman (Jun 15, 2006)

I've been pruning a thousand or so trees a year to standard since 89. That's a half decade before ANSI tree pruning standard. I didn't even know about ANSI until a couple of years ago. I was simply shown the way by a certified arborist, and bought into it fully. I've never met another spikeless pruner(hundreds of spikers). I've never discussed codit or proper pruning with anyone, because noone qualifies, they all use spikes if it's a little tough, or all the time. For a full decade(the nineties) I argued with people tired of getting ripped off by our industry. They don't care about Alex Shigo. I'm not being politically correct, you are, old ugly. I'm the one bucking the trend in the real world.


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## pigwot (Jun 15, 2006)

rebelman,
I am and always have been a spikeless pruner and I respect your integrity. My standard question is "would you go to a midget barber who had to spike up your leg to cut your hair?" I left the industry in 1991, but still climb ocassionaly (friends, neighbors, relatives, and for the landscaper who bought my heavy equipment). Heard Shigo on one of his first lecture tours at Longwood Gardens in PA. Looked at a Liquidamber styraciflua today where you could see the path taken by the last spike-pruner, and each entry point was oozing and had fungal fruiting bodies evident after just one year...


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## clearance (Jun 15, 2006)

oldugly said:


> I try to climb spikeless on any tree I trim, but if I cannot do it efficiently, the spikes go on. Now for a little reality beyond the pc bs. Show me one tree, just one, that has died due to spike marks...and I will buy into it full heartedly.
> 
> After 15 years in my own business, and 12 working for others I have come accross alot of previous trims. Note...I did NOT say a tree that has died due to poor trimming. There are many of them out there, and truly these propetuators of topping, and stubbing, and "dress" cutting are hacks. But now that you threw down the glove...show me one, just one that has died from spiking.
> 
> ...


Awesome Old Guy, I spike everything, but I make collar cuts. The do-gooders have demonized me ever since I have been on this site about spiking around power, even though it is the safest way for a man to live around power and most of them don't climb around it. I know spiking trees isn't good for trees, but I come first, hard to accept for some, people always come first. The PC, Hilary Clinton, takes a village, big brother knows best crowd can take a flying leap. Spike if you want, hump ropes if you want, do whatever turns your crank. I would love to see these PC freaks try and spurless what I climb now, old growth cedars, over 150', with the dead branches first at 70' and the live branches all drooping down.


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## avalontree (Jun 15, 2006)

*what?*

How can you even begin to say that spiking a tree is okay/ Forget about the health part and all that, its friggin ugly and if you're gonna sell people dead wooding or pruning or whatever you do and not let them in on how spiking trees without killing them is not a common practice then i really want to move where you live and throw out some advertsing.

And what does H. Clinton have to do with trees?


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

avalontree said:


> How can you even begin to say that spiking a tree is okay/ Forget about the health part and all that, its friggin ugly and if you're gonna sell people dead wooding or pruning or whatever you do and not let them in on how spiking trees without killing them is not a common practice then i really want to move where you live and throw out some advertsing.
> 
> And what does H. Clinton have to do with trees?


H.Clinton was very much part of the crowd that wants to tell you how and what to do in your own life, thats what, kind of like you and your fellow spurless zealots. You come out here to where I live and try to sell your spurless bs windfirming trees, wearing caulks while you do it. Like I said try spurless climbing big old growth red cedars, with caulks now Buddy. Tell me how its done before you buy a ticket.


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## avalontree (Jun 16, 2006)

*mandatory spiking*

you have a point, but man! You're more fired up than a pitbull. All i know is that if I was allowed to start spiking trees, I might feel a little bad about it at first, and then when I got used to it I wouldn't care and that would be the problem in and of itself. If you have to do it, then I guess you have tol. Im not buying any ticket . Why dont you run for office and make spiking mandatory?


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> Spiking trims is a sign of an uneducated or under trained arborist.


Can you spurless climb a 150' tall old growth red cedar with no live branches for 70'-80' that then droop down? Wearing caulk boots? Of course not, go sit in the truck, cause thats what you would be doing till the day was over if you brought your sorry ass up here. Not really fired up, laughing at you guys, well can ya do it? Lets hear all about it, educate me, know it alls.


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> It's easy if you know how.


So you have spurless climbed with caulks, wow, you the man, tell us about it, big old red cedars too, damn, where abouts?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 16, 2006)

guys....! :deadhorse:


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> So you have spurless climbed with caulks, wow, you the man, tell us about it, big old red cedars too, damn, where abouts?


Waiting for an answer.......


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> This is a 185' tall Ponderosa Pine that is 5 feet thick at the base. No spikes were used to access this tree. This stuff ain't rocket science Clearance.


It ain't a red cedar and I can't tell if anyone is wearing caulks. That sure is a killer flag though, thanks.


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## trevmcrev (Jun 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> Waiting for an answer.......



Hi Clearance, i think i see where you're coming from but.............

In Australia we have lots of very tall Eucs. A long way to the first branch, just as far as you say, sometimes further. A bigshot will get you up there. As far as safety goes i think you are safer tied in from above than just working your way up on spurs & flipline. Maybe you feel firing a bigshot as close to the lines as you are is not safe, but they can be accurate to the exact fork you want to hit with practice.

As for the caulks, I've seen before you've mentioned the are a mandatory safety requirement for you, but is that in terms of walking through the bush?

If so could you not take them off, swap for regular boots when set up and ready to ascend-without spurs on?

I respect what you do still, and yes i like my power, but there may be other ways of doing what you do if you felt it really mattered.

And oldugly, years after pruning with spikes on a tree the decay from all those wounds will link up(decay spreads most vertically) creating a significant column of decay. This may not directly "kill" the tree, but will certainly lead to it's premature removal. 

15 years in this caper i've yet to come across a live tree requiring pruning that could not be done without spikes.

As for celebrity arborists, in Australia at least if not internationally i'd have to say Graham McMahon. His removal/rigging work is nothing short of genius, and there probably isnt another climber in Aust that doesnt look up to him in some way or another.

Trev


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## oldugly (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm glad I got some people riled up, its good to re-evaluate your beliefs and confirm them....but I think I was not entirely understood.
#1 I never said spiking trees was good for them
#2 I never condoned the practice for all trims, or even the majority of them
#3 I DID however state that I have never seen a tree killed by spiking

What I did not initiate, or intend to was to open a can of worms that would lead to a disrespect for eachother, (although I couldn't give a D-mn what you think of me) The fact is that alot of you have valuable experience, education, and knowledge to share and I appreciate that. I also appreciate that when I laid down this challenge, it was in response to a statement that only the textbook answer of a good climber was legitimate. I see alot more than that out there.

If you recall I said Tom, and several others would rate as the "great ones" here. I also mentioned Clearance by name, and several of his greatest critics..(although I did not mention by name they would include Treeco, and Treeseer, and a few others that I am sure I have lost all respect from because of my statements.)

What I intended to illustrate and to hopefully encourage was the respect for others regardless of the textbook answer. I value the CA's very highly, and I wish I had the time or the energy to devote to joining your ranks, but I don't. Also I am getting up in years and really don't want to apply myself to a change of direction at this time.

Tom has done something with his experience in helping to promote safe practices, raise the standards in our industry, and as patiently as possible, (sometimes much more patient than I would be myself) instruct others on the learning he has recieved.

Clearanc, although ridiculed sometimes, at least is vocal and willing to share what he has learned over the years in utility clearance, and is not afraid to question the status quo, or the textbook answer to age old questions.

Treeco has obviously built a successful business and a lot of business owners could learn a lot from him.

Treeseer has a lot of valuable technical information and I respect his opinion very highly.

What I am saying in evaluating your peers, don't give a pat textbook answer to your question, and open your mind to others who may do something different, and in your opinion wrong. Because although his methods may be different, he possibly learned from a different book than you. There are many clebrities in this business...Dr. Shigo, Peter Donnelli, (I hope I spelled his name right) Mr. Daveys, etc. but the true great ones are the ones that serve their customers day to day, and they will always be your true judges. 

After saying all that, for years I would not use spikes on trim jobs. After many re-trims following other company's work I still have not found a tree killed by spiking. So I started using them again when it was more efficient to do so, and I can give my customers a better deal this way.

Treeco, I loved the picture....however I do not know many companies that can afford to have that many trimmers in one tree. How big was the mortgage the customer had to take out for that one? 

Good luck to you all.


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## xtremetrees (Jun 16, 2006)

I agree with oldugly.
The ones here that are so vehimatly against spikeing are mostly flying buckets:hmm3grin2orange:

The book says they are moderately to extremely harmful.SPIKES I disagree and if you do own and fly a bucket to me your not a arborist. 
Your a bucket flyer and really to me your a scam artist. What I mean is in removals where do you stand? Do you throwball them? I agree with olduglys point where after the show the client says wow that was expensive but I'd pay again to see spandal balet? Bucket wont reach your not really giving your all to trees, climb out of it.

The overboardedness with maintain ethics of not spiking trims may lead other less expereienced to throwball dead/weak/dying branches. 

It took me last week almost 1.5 hrs to get into the tree. Luckily for the client I wasnt charging by the hour.



Dead/dying/weakly attached. 
Remeber dead readers many will impliment what you say maybe not now maybe in a search 10 years from now.

I am becomming a treeman that charges by his throwball profeciency?
If your not charging more as a C.A. spikeless triming you should be.


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

trevmcrev said:


> Hi Clearance, i think i see where you're coming from but.............
> 
> In Australia we have lots of very tall Eucs. A long way to the first branch, just as far as you say, sometimes further. A bigshot will get you up there. As far as safety goes i think you are safer tied in from above than just working your way up on spurs & flipline. Maybe you feel firing a bigshot as close to the lines as you are is not safe, but they can be accurate to the exact fork you want to hit with practice.
> 
> ...


Trev, thanks, well written, legitimate points, I'll explain. Throwlines around power, 25kv line for example, the rule is that nothing can come closer than 4' to the line that is unisulated, a tool that is insulated (trimsaw, polepruner) can come as close as 11/2'. So by chucking a throwline higher than the primary there is a chance it could come in contact with the lines or wrap around them, even if it came closer than 4', it would be a violation of provincial work laws and the utilities rules. Making you liable for suspension or revocation of your ticket to work around power, at the very least a note in your file. Caulk boots, simple, the law is "workers required to walk on logs, timbers, shall wear caulks." That basically means the whole time you are away from the pickup, not going to change my boots on and off all day long for anyone, impratical and most likely violating the law some of the time. Trees-we work in an old growth rainforest, the trees are tough, the growing season for them is at least 11 months a year. I see trees all the time that have big damage, big tops ripped off by the wind, co-doms with one stem busted off from being hit by another tree, trees growing with 40' catfaces, etc. Growing well, hundreds of years old, still going strong. Spurring them is like jabbing an elephant with a paper clip.


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## coydog (Jun 16, 2006)

xtremetrees said:


> I agree with oldugly.
> The ones here that are so vehimatly against spikeing are mostly flying buckets:hmm3grin2orange:
> 
> The book says they are moderately to extremely harmful.SPIKES I disagree and if you do own and fly a bucket to me your not a arborist.
> ...


 xtreme, you make me laugh, I have a hard time figuring out sometimes if you are :
a- a troll
b- actually believe the nonsense you preach
c- a hopeless poser wannabe
And before all the AS feelgooders jump on me for flaming him, I'll remind everyone of his statement that the only way to survive a fall is to land on your feet.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 16, 2006)

Flame!!!!


Ahhhh. Now I feel warm and fuzzy.


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## trees4est (Jun 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> around power, 25kv line for example, the rule is that nothing can come closer than 4' to the line that is unisulated, a tool that is insulated (trimsaw, polepruner) can come as close as 11/2'. So by chucking a throwline higher than the primary there is a chance it could come in contact with the lines or wrap around them, even if it came closer than 4', it would be a violation of provincial work laws and the utilities rules. Making you liable for suspension or revocation of your ticket to work around power, at the very least a note in your file. Caulk boots, simple, the law is "workers required to walk on logs, timbers, shall wear caulks."


Man, did Hillary Clinton write those laws? Trying to tell you what to do. What a do-gooder bleeding heart.


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## clearance (Jun 16, 2006)

trees4est said:


> Man, did Hillary Clinton write those laws? Trying to tell you what to do. What a do-gooder bleeding heart.


WTF? Are you retarded?


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## trees4est (Jun 16, 2006)

clearance said:


> WTF? Are you retarded?


Gosh, I guess I am. Why do you ask? Did you not understand something?


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## Tree Machine (Jun 17, 2006)

I'm outta here.


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

clearance said:


> WTF? Are you retarded?



My thought as well. Some "free spirits" just do not get the gist of laws, and regulations, not to mention common sence that govern the activities of workers in high risk industries. This is the same bunch thay finds fellers pants "too hot", steel toe boots "too uncomfortable, or I might get my toes amputated", disdainfull attitude towards PPE in general, and a total disregard for their own well being. Caulks around wood in the bush sound like a good idea to me, though they might be overkill on someone's manicured lawn in Westchester County for eg. What does HC have to do with this discussion aside from the fact that she too comes accross as being a know it all. I do not have to agree with clearance's methods(but I likely would have a greater appreciation of them if I saw him in action), but I am not the one doing his job. Does a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon use the same techniques as Medicins san frontieres doctoring to the sick and dying in the Sudan?


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## Jumper (Jun 17, 2006)

coydog said:


> xtreme, you make me laugh, I have a hard time figuring out sometimes if you are :
> a- a troll
> b- actually believe the nonsense you preach
> c- a hopeless poser wannabe
> And before all the AS feelgooders jump on me for flaming him, I'll remind everyone of his statement that the only way to survive a fall is to land on your feet.



Doesn't hurt as much if you combine it with a good parachute landing roll, difficult to do with a chain saw I suppose


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## coydog (Jun 17, 2006)

clearance said:


> WTF? Are you retarded?


not to mention clearance posts from canada


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## trees4est (Jun 17, 2006)

good god, you guys are literal. I'm just pointing out that Clearance will cry about these supposed impingments on his liberties that aren't even mandatory (i.e. the use of spurs or not, the perennial b.s.) that the tree hugger, liberal elite etc. ad nauseum tries to foist on him, and then say, well, I gotta wear these, it's the regulations."H.Clinton was very much part of the crowd that wants to tell you how and what to do in your own life, thats what, kind of like you and your fellow spurless zealots." "The PC, Hilary Clinton, takes a village, big brother knows best crowd can take a flying leap. Spike if you want, hump ropes if you want, do whatever turns your crank" Except wear non-caulk boots. I mean, I know I shouldn't even try to reply to whatever that is. It's just too funny. I love it how Hillary Clinton somehow comes into play. Yeah, man, just lump everyone who isn't you or thinks like you into one big demon ball.
Jumper says,"Some "free spirits" just do not get the gist of laws, and regulations, not to mention common sence that govern the activities of workers in high risk industries."
Of course regulations are there for a reason. Sometimes they get extreme, but more often they just try to direct people into safe working. You need to recognize "tongue in cheek", dude. There is no law against using spurs, it's just discouraged if you are someone working to preserve trees. Which is not what you do, Clearance guy. You do windfirming (which is arguably stand preservation) and utility work. So be it.
And by the way, there are plenty of people who could climb any tree you climb without spurs. Faster? I don't know, it's not a race. But what does that matter? This thread is about injuries. Shouldn't have hopped on the derailment in the first place, sorry. Carry on.


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## clearance (Jun 17, 2006)

clearance said:


> So you have spurless climbed with caulks, wow, you the man, tell us about it, big old red cedars too, damn, where abouts?


Never got an anwer, lets hear it, anyone now. Plenty of people according to trees4est, where?


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## xtremetrees (Jun 17, 2006)

Clearance Ive heard you whine and justify you spikeing trees because of chalks or whatever but chacks dont get you up the tree dude spikes do and its much easier to climb them trees you climbing without um, unless theres dense undergrowth and is throwballing nightmare.
Can you spike 80 feet up in 8 seconds(ok be realistick and not a comp climber and say 18 minutes) safely, 
The point is being we work on a rope which is primarely used to catch us if we fall. I support the ideal of spikeless climbing simply because theres a safety to catch us if we fall. I know its a hassle tending the rope and flip core at the same time, those who love you will glad you did.


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## woodchux (Jun 17, 2006)

I can spike my way 80 ft up in under 5 minutes.
Probably more like 15 minutes for me to climb spur less.


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## clearance (Jun 17, 2006)

Like I have said, we have to wear caulk boots (if you guys had ever worked in the bush you'd understand why)' some of the cedars have no good branches for over 70' and the live ones all droop down untill you get near the top, trees are like 150'. Can you climb spurless with caulks? How are you going to get your throwline past the dead branches and around something that doesn't droop down?. Why not just admit you can't do it?


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## xtremetrees (Jun 17, 2006)

I can see you have no injuries from chawk boots. Today I spiked my boot only you can see we live in a dangours world. It shte guys on the ground that suffer us contatly managing heavy loads while flying thru the air.
:monkey: 
How many groundmen last years, some do..


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## trevmcrev (Jun 18, 2006)

clearance said:


> Trev, thanks, well written, legitimate points, I'll explain. Throwlines around power, 25kv line for example, the rule is that nothing can come closer than 4' to the line that is unisulated, a tool that is insulated (trimsaw, polepruner) can come as close as 11/2'. So by chucking a throwline higher than the primary there is a chance it could come in contact with the lines or wrap around them, even if it came closer than 4', it would be a violation of provincial work laws and the utilities rules. Making you liable for suspension or revocation of your ticket to work around power, at the very least a note in your file. Caulk boots, simple, the law is "workers required to walk on logs, timbers, shall wear caulks." That basically means the whole time you are away from the pickup, not going to change my boots on and off all day long for anyone, impratical and most likely violating the law some of the time. Trees-we work in an old growth rainforest, the trees are tough, the growing season for them is at least 11 months a year. I see trees all the time that have big damage, big tops ripped off by the wind, co-doms with one stem busted off from being hit by another tree, trees growing with 40' catfaces, etc. Growing well, hundreds of years old, still going strong. Spurring them is like jabbing an elephant with a paper clip.



Ok i here ya, sounds like you work in a very different environment to the average suburban arborist and have fair enough points to do what you do, that in many of our own working situations would be 99.9% of the time un called for.


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## ArborCore (Jun 23, 2006)

I always climb spikeless when trimming, and most of the time on removals. I have done A LOT of trimming which allows me to climb spikeless on removals too. Of course the only benifit I can think of for spikeless removals is comfort and no chance of stabbing yourself in the leg.

Does anyone else prefer to climb without spikes.

Don't get me wrong I am quite proficient with the spikes too. Just if I don't NEED them I don't use them.


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## clearance (Jun 24, 2006)

TreeCo said:


> I leave the spikes in the truck every chance I get. Rope climbing without spikes makes it much more enjoyable limb walking and getting out to the tips.
> 
> Dan


Try limb walking with caulks.


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## Tree Machine (Jun 24, 2006)

Right in the middle of my lower right leg, below the knee, inner side, toward the front, I have a bony knob there and a climbing spur, the pressure and the rubbing of it, it grinds the skin off, causing much pain. 

I didn't use to care for spikes on removals, normally it would be climb and crown out spikeless, come down help brush pilot, climb back up with spurs and be an aerial firewood factory. Now I have to really, really, _really_ need them to wear them.



Just yesterday I got rid of my old thrashed pads and installed the big, thick cadillac pads. I had them out and nearby today's takedown, but I just grit my teeth thinking of putting them on. I cheated and used a ladder on blocking out the lower trunks (triplet).


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## TreeTopKid (Jun 24, 2006)

oldugly said:


> I try to climb spikeless on any tree I trim, but if I cannot do it efficiently, the spikes go on. Now for a little reality beyond the pc bs. Show me one tree, just one, that has died due to spike marks...and I will buy into it full heartedly.
> 
> .



Does the tree have to die in order for the procedure to be incorrect. Spikes Should only be used in a take down situation. Any damage to the Cambium is going to cause death on some part of the tree, given the type of damage that can climbing with spikes on diagonal timber i.e. cuts right across the Cambium the die back could be quite extensive. 

As I understand it has always been considered malpractice. I was first told about it by an older generation arborist in the early eighties. In my opinion if you truly love trees you should climb properly or is it just a question of time & money?


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## clearance (Jun 24, 2006)

TreeTopKid said:


> Does the tree have to die in order for the procedure to be incorrect. Spikes Should only be used in a take down situation. Any damage to the Cambium is going to cause death on some part of the tree, given the type of damage that can climbing with spikes on diagonal timber i.e. cuts right across the Cambium the die back could be quite extensive.
> 
> As I understand it has always been considered malpractice. I was first told about it by an older generation arborist in the early eighties. In my opinion if you truly love trees you should climb properly or is it just a question of time & money?


Blah,Blah,Blah, hey Kid, its always time and money, more time more money, and the customer in most cases wants to spend less money. If you are so passionate about trees and the damage spurs do, you should be able to tell Old Ugly of trees that have been spurred to death. Or post a picture of one, maybe it does happen, one in a million. And, in some cases spurs are about safety. Its not good enough to just spout the party line, back up what you say.


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## 1I'dJak (Jun 24, 2006)

be adaptable... be realistic...what clearance and I do...windfirming... is impossible without spikes... some of you guys say you could do it... sure maybe you could do one a day...that production's gonna get you canned... i was at work yesterday looking at a big balsam and wondering how you could ascend it spikeless....not impossible but very time and energy consuming and very very sketchy as the bottom limbs were dead or dying...you'd be searing around for hours, f'n around with your throwbag and line all tangled up in the slash and nearby insanley branched cedar trees... i taught myself to spikeless climb and it defiently is easier on deciduous trees (of which i think most work on)... alot of big, thick branches to isolate your line on...as far as treeco's ponderosa pine... ponderosa's are significantly more decurrent than most conifers... plus those guys had all day....if the tree is a nice ornamental yard tree i'd attempt to spurless (not the most skilled)... but if i'm up in northern vancouver island and my friend who lives surrounded by big trees wants a line of them trimmed for view i'd spike up them... more thanb likely i'd spike up one, then use my claw (grapple) and ascender to swing to the next trees... as clearance said... here on the coast the growing se3ason is long, the winters are mild, the trees are hardy, and everything just grows and grows....


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## rebelman (Jun 24, 2006)

You're on point treetop. It is malpractice. Residential malpractice. I'm not gonna say it's windfirming malpractice, or even utility. It's preventable residential malpractice. It contributes cumulative stress to the tree. Wow, if these guys have never noticed spike marks on a dead tree they probably don't really do that much residential. I'll try to snap a photo of the next one and show them.


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## clearance (Jun 24, 2006)

rebelman said:


> You're on point treetop. It is malpractice. Residential malpractice. I'm not gonna say it's windfirming malpractice, or even utility. It's preventable residential malpractice. It contributes cumulative stress to the tree. Wow, if these guys have never noticed spike marks on a dead tree they probably don't really do that much residential. I'll try to snap a photo of the next one and show them.


Seen spur marks on dead trees, proves nothing. Nothing. Time for some critical thinking and logic boys, you are like a woman that sees her husband talking to another woman and concludes he is fooling around. The tree may be dead from various other reasons. Out the many hysterical tirades about spurring trees that have taken place on this website, the proof that spurring kills trees is weak, to say the least. Granted, its not good for them, like the scars I have, doesn't mean fatal. Calm down.


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## clearance (Jun 25, 2006)

1I'dJak said:


> be adaptable... be realistic...what clearance and I do...windfirming... is impossible without spikes... some of you guys say you could do it... sure maybe you could do one a day...that production's gonna get you canned... i was at work yesterday looking at a big balsam and wondering how you could ascend it spikeless....not impossible but very time and energy consuming and very very sketchy as the bottom limbs were dead or dying...you'd be searing around for hours, f'n around with your throwbag and line all tangled up in the slash and nearby insanley branched cedar trees... i taught myself to spikeless climb and it defiently is easier on deciduous trees (of which i think most work on)... alot of big, thick branches to isolate your line on...as far as treeco's ponderosa pine... ponderosa's are significantly more decurrent than most conifers... plus those guys had all day....if the tree is a nice ornamental yard tree i'd attempt to spurless (not the most skilled)... but if i'm up in northern vancouver island and my friend who lives surrounded by big trees wants a line of them trimmed for view i'd spike up them... more thanb likely i'd spike up one, then use my claw (grapple) and ascender to swing to the next trees... as clearance said... here on the coast the growing se3ason is long, the winters are mild, the trees are hardy, and everything just grows and grows....


Hey Treeco, or any one else, what you got to say to this? Said much better than I have, should have more wieght for you tree huggers, as Jak spurless climbs sometimes. Well? Lets hear it.


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## rebelman (Jun 25, 2006)

Here's an old NAA quote:The improper use of climbing spurs led A. Des. Cars, author of Tree Pruning, to write the following qoute in 1881: "...the climbing spurs sometimes used by professional pruners should not be allowed. These men, paid according to the number of trees operated on or the quantity of wood cut, have no idea in pruning beyond cutting thte largest amount of wood in the shortest time. Climbing spurs should never be used by good workmen. Wounds made by the sharp iron teeth of this tool encourage the growth of injurious side shoots on the trunks, and leave defects in the wood which never disappear and diminish it's value." So basically the spike pruning is malpractice thing is more like 125 years old. Seems like I read somewhere the ancient asians considered it a serious offense. Isn't it jailable in some areas?


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## clearance (Jun 25, 2006)

Thats a pretty good answer Rebelman, good quote you dug up. I hope it never becomes a jailable offence, I wouldn't be paroled for a long time.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 25, 2006)

Makes me wonder-if this was a jailable offense, who would be left to do ROW trimming? I have never seen a climber who works around power every day climb without spikes.


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## beowulf343 (Jun 25, 2006)

Well clearance, I guess guys like us will have to live with the fact that we will never be "good workmen." Even though we have years of hands-on experience, even though we can climb anything-anywhere-anytime, even though we have never caused any major accidents or injuries, even though we can do our jobs quickly and efficiently while still being safe, even though we climb more trees in a year than alot of "professional arborists" do in a decade-It doesn't matter-to these guys we will always be hacks just because we wear spikes. And frankly, I'm okay with that since just last week I had to do a removal for a c.a. because he couldn't get his rope set into the tree from the ground.


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## clearance (Jun 25, 2006)

Hey 343, your a good guy, don't let the bastards grind ya down.


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## pyro_forester (Jun 25, 2006)

Heh, this topic makes me thing of my first day on the job last summer. within an hour of getting to the apartment complex, I'd had a limb dropped on my head, and the bucket truck busted a hose and showered two of us with hydraulic fluid. I guess you could call it my baptism by fluid  The limb didn't hurt me any, just glanced off my helmet thankfully.  The guy in the bucket had to rope himself out. Needless to say, I was much more attentive with making eye and verbal contact before going under.

Climb safe,
Taylor


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## pigwot (Jun 25, 2006)

Clearance: 
Your comparison of spiking injuries in a tree with the observation that you have lots of scars, and they are not fatal is a flawed statement. The human body when injured can grow new cells in the same place as the injured cells had occupied. A tree is unable to grow new cells in the same way; rather growing around and sometimes covering over the injury. Yet the damage is always there... and the injury does not "heal". I looked at a Sweet gum a few days ago, and you could see dark fluid oozing out of a very familiar pattern going up the trunk... and it was last 'trimmed' ten years ago.


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## clearance (Jun 25, 2006)

pigwot said:


> Clearance:
> Your comparison of spiking injuries in a tree with the observation that you have lots of scars, and they are not fatal is a flawed statement. The human body when injured can grow new cells in the same place as the injured cells had occupied. A tree is unable to grow new cells in the same way; rather growing around and sometimes covering over the injury. Yet the damage is always there... and the injury does not "heal". I looked at a Sweet gum a few days ago, and you could see dark fluid oozing out of a very familiar pattern going up the trunk... and it was last 'trimmed' ten years ago.


Ten years, wow. I though that the old line about women was kinda true "How can you trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die?"


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## hobby climber (Jun 25, 2006)

*Back on topic please...*

I see we have another AS.com thread thats been derailed again by the "spike or no spike" BS!!! Would be nice to have a AS.Com MEMBERS thread actually stay on topic for a change! As far as injuries go, I know of no one off hand thats been in the biz over 2-3years that hasn't received some type of injury. I would think that the majority of injuries occur in the first few years while still learning. Unfortunately, just about every mistake made is payed for in flesh & blood. Climb safe!!! HC


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## xtremetrees (Jun 26, 2006)

Mistakes!??
What causes me mistakes is any other thing that can go wrong. I think attitude toward the work itself plays a part in my safety as well as the safety of others. I can live with bonking myself in the head but bonking another.??


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## oldugly (Jul 4, 2006)

*apologies*

Hey guys I am truly sorry for derailing this thread off topic. My only purpose was to compare someone's definition of "greatness", or "celebrity status", not to reopen a dead can of worms. 

In my opinion, all of you who are steadfast in your business, treat your customers well, and are striving to make even your competitors lives a little safer, are "great", and "celebrities". Whether I throw in with all your beliefs or not is immaterial. And whether I have your respect or not is totally unimportant to me.

But I should have never derailed this thread into a topic that is so opinionated that neither side will ever leave their soapboxes long enough to listen to the other.

Back on topic.....

Being hurt...I found it is not the tree that I was afraid of that hurts me, but always the easy ones...the ones that silently lets me take my guard down long enough to suprise me.


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## squisher (Jul 4, 2006)

I have worked with trees for eleven years from spacing 5 years, rigging (spike climbing) spars for a highlead for five years and tree service for 1 year ( no I don't spike trims) and have never had a lost time accident. 

Squisher


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## Tree Machine (Jul 4, 2006)

> have never had a lost time accident.


Good on you, and welcome to Arboristsite, Squisher.


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## hobby climber (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes squisher, welcome to AS.com!!! Its nice to have another Canuck around here. Enjoy the show! HC


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## xtremetrees (Jul 4, 2006)

Welcome squishy, climb safe.


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## squisher (Jul 4, 2006)

Thanks for the welcome. 

Just to clarify the safety record I want to say I know that luck has a part in it and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves because I have worked with some extremely safe people who have been seriously injured and some that have ridden the fine line between production and safety and have been killed. One of my lifelong friends was killed on a highlead last summer. Whenever my life is on the line I make sure that I've done everything I can to ensure my safety. You need a really tight crew before you can rely on someone else for anything to do with your own personal safety.


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## xtremetrees (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm sorry your lifelong friend died bro. 
Myfriend got paralized from the neck down. He was as good as any two of these guys here.

I think luck does play a part. Thats a powerless feeling but I deal with it best I can.


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## walker/redmax (Jul 24, 2006)

My grandpa cut his leg wide open to the bone cuttin' with a 3120 above his head. Almost lost his leg but his scar is pretty bad azz:rockn:


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## benjycreeper (Jul 26, 2006)

*Plaster Casts are Great*

I have been a professional climber for 6 year and had a couple of impressive scratches from pruning saws (silky's), and of course been ripped to death by Leyland and Spruce but never fallen out or been touched by the saw (touch wood). So why is it that when riding my mountain bike last week i would decide to fall of nd break my fibula? 5 weeks of day time T.V and unitchable itches!
It is easy to get complacent though, stay focused!!!!!!!!

Bye, Bye.............


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