# Pole Barn project



## konnan1 (May 28, 2014)

Hello,

Was hoping to get a bit of advice. I purchased a woodland mills bandsaw last year, and am very happy with it. This summer will be the first big project in building a 28x32 garage/wood shed to enclose the woodstove and store the wood.

I'm planning on doing 12' footings with brackets, and 6x6 posts....I was 'hoping' to use wood from my property for the posts instead of going PT. I have a lot of poplar, cedar, some maple and ash. Would any of those be suitable to posts? I was hoping cedar...

Any advise would be great!


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## Trx250r180 (May 28, 2014)

cedar ,the last stuff i put in the ground i painted with roofing tar to hope it lasts longer ,concrete may keep it dry too ,stuff i just direct buried was starting to rot when i pulled the poles out 10 years later


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## konnan1 (May 28, 2014)

Good to know, now this might be a dumb question, but how bad would it be if I cut and milled 6x6 cedar posts and used them right away without drying them?

As long as cedar can hold the load, that would save me buying PT posts, I'm doing siding so it 'shouldn't' ever get too wet.


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## Trx250r180 (May 28, 2014)

konnan1 said:


> Good to know, now this might be a dumb question, but how bad would it be if I cut and milled 6x6 cedar posts and used them right away without drying them?
> 
> As long as cedar can hold the load, that would save me buying PT posts, I'm doing siding so it 'shouldn't' ever get too wet.




They will hold the load up and down fine ,they are a little softer to hold nails ,but fine ,if you pour in concrete when poles are wet they may shrink some would be only drawback ,i have had some boards shrink 1/8 to 1/4 after milled right when the tree was fell ,if the logs have been down 6 months or so shrinkage not so bad ,i get more stable boards out of logs that have been down a while 6 months plus ,but they are are a little harder to cut being drier ,if put in concrete should last a long time i would think


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## Sawyer Rob (May 28, 2014)

Buy the PT post if you want it to last a long time. Very FEW natural woods will last in the ground, especially if the ground is damp, and NOTHING "you" can buy will make your poles last longer! Keep in mind, the post expand and contract, so water gets under tar, cement holds the water closer to the post and rot begins.

Another option is to buy steel columns or pour cement columns, then use your wood over them. Just keep in mind, to protect your lumber from touching cement which will attract moisture.

SR


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## GrantD (May 28, 2014)

It really depends on the type of cedar. They all have different shrinkage rates, and there are a few factors that will play into it also. Moisture content of the lumber is a biggie.

Also keep-in-mind, back in the old days they cut and used lumber all the time to build barns and out-buildings while the wood was still green.


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## Sawyer Rob (May 28, 2014)

And those OLD barns were built out of OLD GROWTH tree's, something we don't have now days... And, that's a BIGGIE!

I have no problem using green lumber but I do have a problem with it near or touching the ground.

SR


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## konnan1 (May 28, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> And those OLD barns were built out of OLD GROWTH tree's, something we don't have now days... And, that's a BIGGIE!
> 
> I have no problem using green lumber but I do have a problem with it near or touching the ground.
> 
> SR




What if the cement footing/tubes were raised a bit off the ground and I just bolt it on with a bracket from there? So say 4' deep below ground, and a 1/2' above? I'm in a really dry/sandy area as well.


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## Sawyer Rob (May 28, 2014)

That works as long as your pole doesn't touch the cement and the ground is sloped so NO water gets to the pole. You just have to keep moisture away from the poles.

I'd be picky about the grade of the poles too, make sure there are no big knots in them ect... Cedar is pretty soft, I'd probably used bolts in high stress area's, like header connections ect...

SR


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## GrantD (May 28, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Another option is to buy steel columns or pour cement columns, then use your wood over them. Just keep in mind, to protect your lumber from touching cement which will attract moisture.
> 
> SR



^^^ this man speaks the truth.

You also should be able to find a galvanized piece from the local hardware store to anchor into the concrete, that will anchor your post too. I'll get a pic of what I used to replace some rotting posts at my father's house last year if you'd like. It raised the post about a 1/4" off the footer we poured for the post.


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## GrantD (May 28, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> And those OLD barns were built out of OLD GROWTH tree's, something we don't have now days... And, that's a BIGGIE!
> 
> SR



Truth. That's also why you see so many engineered joist/lumber used now, due to the short rotation lumber sold.


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## konnan1 (May 28, 2014)

GrantD said:


> ^^^ this man speaks the truth.
> 
> You also should be able to find a galvanized piece from the local hardware store to anchor into the concrete, that will anchor your post too. I'll get a pic of what I used to replace some rotting posts at my father's house last year if you'd like. It raised the post about a 1/4" off the footer we poured for the post.




That would be great - that sounds like what I was planning on using. Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but it's an anchor I place in the cement footer and then place the post in that bracket or anchor and bolt it through. So the wood is technically touching the metal, not the cement. Is that what your referring to?


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## GrantD (May 28, 2014)

konnan1 said:


> That would be great - that sounds like what I was planning on using. Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but it's an anchor I place in the cement footer and then place the post in that bracket or anchor and bolt it through. So the wood is technically touching the metal, not the cement. Is that what your referring to?



Yup. 

Here's a few pics















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## konnan1 (May 28, 2014)

GrantD said:


> Yup.
> 
> Here's a few pics
> 
> ...




Yes! This is what I was planning on using with the post's. So maybe I will give cedar a try. Those are some wide footings!


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## GrantD (May 28, 2014)

Yeah, they're a lil over built. But in order to pull the old posts and footings we had to dig quite a bit, and deep. Plus it can intermittently see some weight up on the deck above


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sawyer Rob (May 28, 2014)

"IF" your post isn't going to be in the ground, or have moisture getting to it, you don't have to use cedar.

SR


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## konnan1 (May 29, 2014)

Sawyer Rob said:


> "IF" your post isn't going to be in the ground, or have moisture getting to it, you don't have to use cedar.
> 
> SR




Good to know! Thanks - the most easily accessible woods are cedars and poplars on my property, I'm guessing cedar would be preferable in that case just on the off chance some moisture did get through...?


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## Mike from Maine (May 29, 2014)

Perma columns or laminated 2x6 posts (pt below grade)


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## SDB777 (May 30, 2014)

Most old barns around here were constructed using Bald Cypress{_Taxodium distichum_} on top of flat field stone foundations. Not sure I have even seen a barn made from ERC{_Juniperus virginiana_}(of western cedar{_Thuja plicata_})? If I did, I sure didn't realize it.

PT timber doesn't take well with ground contact either(in central Arkansas), got two years out of one before it rotted. So don't believe that PT is the 'answer to everything timber'. Osage Orange{_Maclura pomifera_} seems to hold up better then most timbers here(but it may not be available for you to mill in your area).


Why were you wanting to use 'Cedar', do you just have a lot of the stuff?





Scott (I see old growth everywhere in the forums) B


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## konnan1 (May 30, 2014)

SDB777 said:


> Most old barns around here were constructed using Bald Cypress{_Taxodium distichum_} on top of flat field stone foundations. Not sure I have even seen a barn made from ERC{_Juniperus virginiana_}(of western cedar{_Thuja plicata_})? If I did, I sure didn't realize it.
> 
> PT timber doesn't take well with ground contact either(in central Arkansas), got two years out of one before it rotted. So don't believe that PT is the 'answer to everything timber'. Osage Orange{_Maclura pomifera_} seems to hold up better then most timbers here(but it may not be available for you to mill in your area).
> 
> ...




Yes,... well Cedar and poplar, and I just assumed Cedar would be better long term for rot resistance. Originally I has going to buy either Hemlock or PT posts for $30 a pop, but thought I'd ask you guys first. If I can mill poplar or cedar if would just save me a bit of coin. I have other species on the lot, but noting as good size wise as those two, and the ash I usually cut for firewood. These would be thrown up with only a month or two of air drying as well which I know isn't ideal....but I don't care if it's pretty, just need something to store wood in and keep the mill out of the elements. After the posts/truss'/roof is up, I'll do board and batten siding to keep the posts dry.


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## Sawyer Rob (May 30, 2014)

As for PT rotting, it depends on the PT lumber. Some is only treated to .40 retention, it will rot in some conditions. It's made for ground contact, NOT to be put in the ground. The .60 won't rot for a LONG time and .80 is for marine use.

Many places only have .60 if you order it, I haven't seen "anyplace" that has .80 in stock...

SR


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## SDB777 (May 30, 2014)

Konnan1,

Given the choice between the two....I'd pick cedar. Poplar, I wouldn't even use it for firewood....although, it will make a nice vase or something on the lathe.
I've seen cedar fence posts that have been in the ground holding barbwire for decades(think 50+ years), that are as solid as the day they were stuck in the ground. And I have seen PT that was sitting in one of those concrete pad/holder things rot after one year(as well as being eaten by bugs). Go figure?

Hemlock was used in the earlier days(think back during post-n-beam construction). It has some great qualities....happen to have any of that stuff(would put in on rock or concrete, and not ground contact).




Scott (what are you going to mill with) B


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## konnan1 (Jun 3, 2014)

Awesome - Cedar it is, hopefully putting it up green isn't a terrible stupid choice. I'll post some picks over the next month or two on how she is coming along.


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## JHctRednek (Jun 13, 2014)

Just my 2 cents, cedar is fine. 
We built a tractor shed with cedar poles in the 90s just took an axe and chipped off the pith from the cedar poles to get down to the heart wood and direct buried the poles 3' down. Its nothing special just three walls and a tin roof but its been holding up fine. Around here the only thing that rots on red cedar is the pith, just pull out any old fence post like SBD777 said and you'll see. 

good luck with your project


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## Marshy (Jun 13, 2014)

Of the species you listed cedar would be my number 1 choice. Overall best choice for rot resistant non-PT wood is black locust followed by cedar and hemlock. Those 3 are the go-to wood for farmers making fence post. If you use the cedar and put the post on a raised pad then I'd expect good life from it, more so than buried in the ground. Avoid using any popular unless you want problems, I just don't consider popular good wood in general let alone an ok choice for structural.


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## konnan1 (Jun 17, 2014)

Finally got two of the 10 posts I need milled. Here is a pic - ended up doing 8x8's of cedar. Now just 8 more to go.....


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## konnan1 (Oct 2, 2014)

Long overdue update! So dug out 10", 4 foot deep hole, and sono tube/cemented them in with anchors. Ended up cutting the posts down to 6x6's, just easier and more manageable. on the cross beams, one side poplar, one ash(notched in to pole), and then trusses went up last weekend. Literally my first project, so it's been a big learning experience....but its getting there! Now for the tin roof....


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## dlabrie (Oct 2, 2014)

konnan1 said:


> View attachment 371595
> 
> 
> Long overdue update! So dug out 10", 4 foot deep hole, and sono tube/cemented them in with anchors. Ended up cutting the posts down to 6x6's, just easier and more manageable. on the cross beams, one side poplar, one ash(notched in to pole), and then trusses went up last weekend. Literally my first project, so it's been a big learning experience....but its getting there! Now for the tin roof....



Did you build the trusses yourself?


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## konnan1 (Oct 2, 2014)

no - the one piece of wood on there that wasn't milled. had those generously given by a nieghbor


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## Marshy (Oct 2, 2014)

I hope the poplar works out well for you. Seems like a big investment to be gambling with on an inferior wood... I'd be movin quick to keep that Poplar out of the elements.


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## konnan1 (Oct 2, 2014)

Ya it's going to be 100% covered within the week and then shouldn't ever get wet again after that.


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## dlabrie (Oct 2, 2014)

konnan1 said:


> no - the one piece of wood on there that wasn't milled. had those generously given by a nieghbor


Wow, you lucked out! I called for quote on buying them for my 22 X 24 mill shed and they wanted $1600! I am going to make them myself. I am building mine from Eastern White Pine.


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## konnan1 (Oct 3, 2014)

Oh wow! I like it, I didn't do a floor on mine, my only regret. Next time 

Can't believe the trusses are worth so much! But I guess as long as you are very accurate on the angles and measurement's, building your own wouldn't be too troublesome. Then use that first one as a template to build the rest..

Do you know what spacing your doing for the purlins on the roof? I did trusses 4' oc., am milling true 2x4's, was told I should stagger them ever 11" up the roof, and then nail my tin on. But every 11"'s sounds like overkill...?


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## dlabrie (Oct 3, 2014)

My plan is to get the deck finished then build a jig on the floor to construct the trusses. I am not a carpenter, so I might be doing this all wrong, but I plan to 
place the 2x4 trusses 2' on center (is this over kill?) and space the purlins 2' apart. I am going to have a 6/12 pitch with a metal roof. I built a barn 25 years ago with 2x6 rafters 2' on center, and spaced the purlins 2' apart. They have held up fine. I also have a lean-to for my fire wood, purlins 2'apart.


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## konnan1 (Oct 3, 2014)

No I don't think it's overkill. I only went 4' centers as I knew I was going true 2x4 purlins, at a spacing of my choosing, so I just figured I would make it work....wanted a bigger shed as I only had 9 trusses to work with. If your building your own...then nothing wrong with 2'. Also my trusses are 2x6, so that factored into my decision as well.


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## Sawyer Rob (Oct 5, 2014)

Factory truss' are built from a better grade of wood than just using stud wood, and they are pre-stressed when they are put together... (less sag and stronger)

SR


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## dlabrie (Oct 16, 2014)

Progress update...


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## pete_86 (Oct 16, 2014)

Looking good, what's the floor going to be made of 2x material? No 24" on rafters or trusses is usually considered the max normally and that's not always because of truss strength, but the ability of whatever roof decking that's used to span the distance. Using milled lumber and if you have enough on hand, 16" OC and 1x3 purlins is plenty. If you ever walk on a metal roof it's always practice to stay on the purlins, and metal roofing dents easy enough 16 oc if walked between. Your 24oc be plenty as doubt you'll walk on it much after it's built? More pitch less loading and snow pile up.

Was curious about your floor beams. Did you end up using carriage bolts or timber screws to attach to posts? I was wondering if anyone's done or thought of this? Such as setting your beam on 4x4 post supports and than notching the end of the 6x6 posts 4" so that the post sits directly on beam and the 2" piece left is kept on the inside and a few 20d nails thrown in. No special hardware needed and all wood to wood bearing with this method. Once building is framed the posts will be rigid as building will hold posts in place and they just need to transfer load. Building will be locked in from side to side motion and any uplift. The only problem with this method is your turning a 6x post into a 4x bearing capacity. Lots of ways to skin a cat, wanted to mention another way for anyone thinking of doing a pole barn


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## dlabrie (Oct 17, 2014)

For the the headers, top and bottom, I first hung 8', 2x8s on joist hangers between the posts. Then I spanned 2, 12' 2x8s across the front of them. For the top headers, I put a 2x down the post to help support the 2x12s. Everything is secured with 4" TimberLOK Heavy-Duty Wood Screws.

The floor is going to be 1"boards. I am going to build 2X4 roof trusses at a 6/12 pitch. I'll use 1"boards for the purilns and a metal roof to top it off.


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## kimosawboy (Oct 17, 2014)

There is free software out there that can help you with the layout of the trusses as well as the spacing....
Like Sawer Rob said factory trusses are from a better grade of wood, they are also designed by an engineer/assembled with the correct plates and press.
Dlabrie, it sounds like your truss layout will be fine especially with the big pitch. Snowload is never going to stick and I assume that all your material is cut to true dimensions? 24"OC is standard for around here (west coast)
Konnan1, 4' OC is a pretty big spacing, have you thought about building a few of your own trusses to throw into the mix? What is the pitch on yours going to be?


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## dlabrie (Oct 17, 2014)

kimosawboy said:


> There is free software out there that can help you with the layout of the trusses as well as the spacing....
> Like Sawer Rob said factory trusses are from a better grade of wood, they are also designed by an engineer/assembled with the correct plates and press.
> Dlabrie, it sounds like your truss layout will be fine especially with the big pitch. Snowload is never going to stick and I assume that all your material is cut to true dimensions? 24"OC is standard for around here (west coast)
> Konnan1, 4' OC is a pretty big spacing, have you thought about building a few of your own trusses to throw into the mix? What is the pitch on yours going to be?


 Yes, all of my wood is true size. I think Konnan1 is using 2X6 trusses.


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## konnan1 (Oct 17, 2014)

I'll try and up a new photo soon, roof is 85% on! Looking like a real shed finally. Yes I am using 2X6's on trusses, and the purlins are 2x4(true) 2'OC. I staggered them so there is some overlap and I plan on keeping a minimal snow load with a snow rake anytime we get a big dumping just because I'm paranoid.

Yours is looking great dlabrie!!


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## pete_86 (Oct 18, 2014)

Where can you get the free truss software? I'll have to do a search, I have a hard time even finding simple backyard shed plans for free these days. Not that I need plans to build, just can make life easier planning a materials list or not taking time to figure out certain things or forget to figure out certain things, LOL.

Your structure is looking nice dlabrie, your joists are at 24"? 40 psf, the minimum for decks just for example. Deck boards 5/4 max span 16 oc and 2x material at 24 will give 40psf. Are you doing board and batten siding? Hope the weather is nice for you this wknd, rain here.

What are your thoughts on a ridge board and rafters? 2x8 rafters maybe depending on the rake length. What I have had trouble with is finding calculators that may consider roof pitch. Too many variables as a flatter roof should almost take loads like a floor and a steeper roof not as much will stick to it. Of course worst case scenario 1' snow on a flat or on a 12/12 is still the same weight, but my thinking is considering it like a ramp and a pickup truck. 2x12 ramp boards won't take a load held flat, but if you throw some of the weight to gravity on an inclined plane than the boards will take the load. I thought of this when I was planning an addition on the house. For a cathedral ceiling, 2x8 was way to go sized to fit insulation. Had I wanted a flat ceiling, I could have gotten away with 2x6s. Hmm, when in doubt built it stout! LOL, just be nice to have better calculators as with bigger projects you can have quite a savings not throwing money away buying bigger than necessary timbers.


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## dlabrie (Oct 19, 2014)

I found a truss calculator here. The floor joists are 24"oc. I am going to use 1"(true) for the deck. The mill itself will be sitting on >6x6"cross beams on top of that. I'll be using board and batten siding. I am trying to avoid ridge board and rafters and want to try my hand at making trusses. It has been raining a lot here. I hope to be able to get out today and start the deck.


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## moojpg2 (Oct 19, 2014)

When i built my bigger wood shed i stick framed it with dimensional southern yellow pine 2x6 rafters 16" oc with 5/4 decking as purlins. (Built the whole thing out of pressure treated). Fairly flat pitch but it takes the snow loads we get up here just fine. My poles are just on deck blocks on top of 4" of compacted stone, anchored with biggest shed anchors i could find. Havent had any issues.

(I know it should be on footings but area where i live is built on top of an old granite quarry, yard is full of giant pieces of ledge, and digging holes much more than a foot deep usually reguires an excavator or explosives)


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## konnan1 (Oct 21, 2014)

Update photo. Roof over 75% on, starting to pile some wood for the beast...getting there! Still lots of finishing touches that are needed. Really under-estimated the time it take to build a structure like this.


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## dlabrie (Oct 21, 2014)

konnan1 said:


> Update photo. Roof over 75% on, starting to pile some wood for the beast...getting there! Still lots of finishing touches that are needed. Really under-estimated the time it take to build a structure like this.
> 
> 
> View attachment 375023


Looking good! you'll be under cover in no time!


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## dlabrie (Jul 19, 2015)

Well the snow is gone and 9 cords of winter wood is cut, split and stacked so it is time to get back to the shed. The mill is working out nicely on the deck. I have been cutting 2X4s for my trusses. Here are a few picts.


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## rarefish383 (Jul 20, 2015)

A friend built a large barn to hide his tractor trailer in. He lived in a residential neighborhood with a HOA. They had five acres and a couple horses. They used all Poplar for the board and batten. That was over 30 years ago and all of the B&B looks fine still. Here's a log house, built of Poplar logs with the bark on, in the 1930's in the Wash DC area, very humid and wet. I took these pictures a couple years ago just to post here, Joe.


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