# Yarder logging



## Chad ward (Nov 10, 2012)

Do you have to have elevation with mountains for a yarder system to work? I'm a wet land logger in the south east looking for a system to harvest tracts with low density stems per acre, not enough volume for a matt logging system.


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 10, 2012)

not necessarily, If you run a three drum yarder have a tall enough tower, or run the old school constant haulback it can be done on flat ground. The trick is getting the carriage back to the choker setters, which is usually accomplished with gravity, but with a three drum you set one drum to pull the carriage into the brush one to lift, and one to pull the logs out of the brush. with the old constant haulback one capstan type pulls the carriage in or out of the brush, just use forward or reverse...

I would be careful running a yarder in swamps though you need to have really strong roots to make a Skyline system work, there is a boat load of presure on the tail hold, usually a stump or a "lift tree" and I admit to assuming that swamp trees do not have deep roots?

That aside I bet a guy could pick up a decent used yarder for cheaper than a new skidder with gigantic tires on it? but your still gonna need a crew that can run the thing for you... good luck


----------



## slowp (Nov 10, 2012)

A high lead system, where there is no carriage--just butt rigging, works on flat ground in clearcuts. That used to be done a lot around here. Here is a video and they have a rider block. You can high lead without, but you may plow a nice ditch in the ground if the yarder is powerful enough.

[video=youtube_share;pxJYMndMsdA]http://youtu.be/pxJYMndMsdA[/video]


----------



## hammerlogging (Nov 10, 2012)

Chad ward said:


> Do you have to have elevation with mountains for a yarder system to work? I'm a wet land logger in the south east looking for a system to harvest tracts with low density stems per acre, not enough volume for a matt logging system.



your question will not be whether it is physically feasible, which it is, and it has been done, but if its economically viable, depending on the value of those stems. yarders are more affected by density than most systems and the logging bill is affected by this.


----------



## bitzer (Nov 12, 2012)

Sounds expensive.


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 12, 2012)

Bitzer and Hammer are correct, Yarders may be easy to obtain, but not cheap to move or set up, plus you're going to need a crew of at a minimum 3 experienced people, The operator needs to know what he is doing and be familiar with the machine otherwise people get hurt, the rigging slinger and hook tender need to at least be familiar with the system preferably be very experienced, just to make it work, In reality a few more bodies would make the job faster and easier, add at least one more choker setter to the mix, and a chaser, and a side rod, loader operator, processor operator. At the end of the day all these Guys and gurls want to get paid.

Other than being expensive its not a bad Idea:msp_biggrin:


----------



## slowp (Nov 12, 2012)

Yarder whistles are a cheery noise to hear on a foggy morning.


----------



## Slamm (Nov 12, 2012)

I pondered doing this, but it just doesn't seem practical from a man power point of view and you're in softer swamps than I am, will swamp grown trees hold anything in those soft soils? I mean for the support cables to attach to. I would think you would pull every tree out of the mud after awhile.

I'm going the route of large flotation tires, its much less expensive and doesn't require different experience or skills or more manpower.

I also have the option of just working faster when it freezes or is dry, but don't likely have that option in a Florida swamp.

Sam


----------



## slowp (Nov 12, 2012)

Twisters and a small stump. This is one of the problems faced when the old stumps are too rotten to use for a tailhold and the plantation is young. Note the rigging crew size. There's also a yarder engineer, shovel operator, and chaser on the crew that are not shown. They are up on the landing. 





View attachment 261954


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 12, 2012)

As others are stating your crew and tail holds are going to be a problem. Low volume also creates an economic problem in that you need to recover a high volume to pay your costs. Factoring into that is you will be doing more road changes because your volume isn't high. That adds cost. And being flat ground you're going to be runnin but rigging instead of a drop line carriage which also reduces the width of your roads. Thereby exacerbating the constant road changes. Trust me if you damage a carriage you don't want that repair bill! They are a great machine but if crap goes sideways and somthing happens to it they are not cheap to fix. Also with having a hard time with tail trees you're going to have a hard time with guy stumps and would probably have to bury deadmen or buy a bunch of D8 cats to use instead. I've seen at least 3 8's on a tower myself. The physical constraints of your particular ground makes it difficult to run a full blown tower.

Ok in a previous thread. For the foresters... we discussed matt logging a bit. I just sat in on a discussion about it. I have an idea but first I have a few questions. How big are the units, acerage wise and skid distances? Specifically how does the low volume make the matt infeasable? How woul you normally log a low vol unit like this, or would you not?


----------



## hammerlogging (Nov 12, 2012)

the buncher builds a corduroy road on its way out, then cuts the side of the road, shovels pass stems to the road for skidders to take to roadside landing. If there is not enough material to build the road, no skidders, no logging. 200 acre blocks, roads about 4-500 feet apart. Tracjed machines can run the swamp, even skidders with doubles will break through easily without a proper corduroy road. they are constantly adding/adjusting weal spots as they go. They pull the muddy nasty stems from the road on their way out. But, I've had the pleasure of seeing both skidders and tracked machines "broken through" and severely sunken in the swamps and each time its nearly time to give up, there's lots of suction down there. Can't get the door open deep.

To the OP, it is not quite as bad as it sounds, but given low density, helicopter may be more feasible, as silly as it sounds. They do swamps often. A buncher can (fellerbuncher, any mechanized felling option really) can help with the density issue because they can increase the density on each road ("corridor") by also shovelling to under the lines. Also, not all machines need quite the crew as described, this is a west coast model described, more euro models are designed for smaller turns, smaller crews, bettter mobility, faster road changes, and depending on circumstances, sometimes lower $/ton or $/mbf. A carriage system is not impossible by any means with mid span hoists, and a big 30 ton track hoe would be plenty suitable for a tail hold with a yarder the size you would need.


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 12, 2012)

there is also the Swing Yarder method, I understand the Aussies and Kiwis use that method pretty often, basically there is a winch operated grapple hanging from where a normal carriage would go and they set a shovel on the far end sometimes to help move it about, in this case there is not much need for rigging slingers and choker setters, so you reduce some of the crew.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 12, 2012)

I had forgot about grapple yarders. A mobile tailhold would help with the road changes. Most grapple setups use a mobile tailhold. Cats were traditionally used but they are moving toward shovels. They are heavier, lighter on the land, and can move the timber just out of reach of the grapple foward of the tailhold so they can get it.

Was thinking chopper could be more efficient.

I was originally thinking maybe using a yoder if you could establish th road but was difficult to get off of the skikd road. they aren't pulling big turns and require a smaller crew. The size of the turns doesn't require guy stumps and its much more mobile. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Gologit (Nov 12, 2012)

What size is the timber?


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 13, 2012)

Gologit said:


> What size is the timber?



That's the best post I've seen yet. Key to knowing what can be done.

Geez, everybody has got skyline on the brain. Low volume swamp sounds like high lead country.
Again though size? Small stuff and no lift= chunks and cats asses.

Good stumps depend on species. Not knowing what they are I won't guess but there are good stumps in the swamp here. You have to know what to look for though.

Swing yarders would suck in this kind of place I'm guessing. All well and good to talk about a tail tree machine for one until you get it mired. I think if the guy could get around with something like that he wouldn't be asking questions. He be skidder logging it.

I think 4 guys to be minimum crew, 5 if you count shovel runner. Engineer, chaser, slinger, hooker.

Love to see a picture.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 13, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> That's the best post I've seen yet. Key to knowing what can be done.
> 
> Geez, everybody has got skyline on the brain. Low volume swamp sounds like high lead country.
> Again though size? Small stuff and no lift= chunks and cats asses.
> ...



True true. I was thinking if he could maybe get on more solid ground on the edge of the unit but agree. Didn't add that though. Bee doin any trappin? I'm gonna get to come home for the last two days of late buck this weekend. Pretty excited lol


----------



## northmanlogging (Nov 13, 2012)

wasn't counting Shovel jockey, but the hooker can also sling, its slow but can be done, in a pinch the engineer could also Chase but getting him out of the machine is like winning the lottery, that and with modern Yarders there is a bit of a climb up and down guy would have to be spider man, or spider pig... with a yoder its almost like a swing yarder, only its a shovel too... now ya's got me thinkin...


----------



## StihlKiwi (Nov 13, 2012)

northmanlogging said:


> there is also the Swing Yarder method, I understand the Aussies and Kiwis use that method pretty often, basically there is a winch operated grapple hanging from where a normal carriage would go and they set a shovel on the far end sometimes to help move it about, in this case there is not much need for rigging slingers and choker setters, so you reduce some of the crew.



Yep that's the one. Swinger with interlocking drums, a grapple and a 25 ton excavator as a tailhold would work pretty well. Swamp tracks on the tailhold machine if its particularly soft and Bob's your uncle


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 13, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Yep that's the one. Swinger with interlocking drums, a grapple and a 25 ton excavator as a tailhold would work pretty well. Swamp tracks on the tailhold machine if its particularly soft and Bob's your uncle



Not asking the guy to invest very much are you?

Seriously though if he can get a 25 ton excavator around he might as well shovel log it. Maybe put a drum on the shovel to reach some of the softer spots.

Grapple yarders are obsolete.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 13, 2012)

I agree with ya Hump, grapple yarders are dead for the most part in the US. A certain timber company has one and grapples everything they can; then stick a carriage on it and get the rest of the easier yarder ground. The loggin supe says it's super efficient and cheap compared to runing a full crew. Only reason they do it is cuz they have enough ground to keep it busy. Otherwise it wouldn't be feasable. ALthough I don't know why a Gypo doesn't get one and specialize in grappling and bounce around between different timber outfits to stay busy. Gotta beat L&I somehow. Any insights there Hump?


----------



## StihlKiwi (Nov 13, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Not asking the guy to invest very much are you?
> 
> Seriously though if he can get a 25 ton excavator around he might as well shovel log it. Maybe put a drum on the shovel to reach some of the softer spots.
> 
> Grapple yarders are obsolete.



Maybe they are in the US, but there's still a use for them. Timber, terrain, productivity etc all dictate that.

For interest's sake, have you heard of the falcon forestry claw? Its a mechanised grapple that you can run on tower yarders


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 14, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> I agree with ya Hump, grapple yarders are dead for the most part in the US. A certain timber company has one and grapples everything they can; then stick a carriage on it and get the rest of the easier yarder ground. The loggin supe says it's super efficient and cheap compared to runing a full crew. Only reason they do it is cuz they have enough ground to keep it busy. Otherwise it wouldn't be feasable. ALthough I don't know why a Gypo doesn't get one and specialize in grappling and bounce around between different timber outfits to stay busy. Gotta beat L&I somehow. Any insights there Hump?



The reason they are obsolete is they are not versatile. There are very few places you can use them you cannot shovel log. So you move into a show maybe there's a few places you can use them. What happens to your crew when they are layed off? They aren't there when it comes time to log the rest.
Also, it takes a lot of road changes because you have to go narrow. That takes time. Tailhold machine, walking it around the back end? Ever looked at a logging show lately? Notice all the RMZs and leave trees. You can't walk a tail machine much anymore most places.
To top it off you can out produce a grapple machine with a dropline carriage. More expensive to run a crew to be sure but with the increased production it makes them closer.

In a perfect world a grapple machine could move around to all the shows perfect for it. When the big timber companies had their own sides they did that.
Now though a gypo needs a machine he can use what ever show he gets. It's tough enough to keep your yarder working without being selective about what you will log.


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 14, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> Maybe they are in the US, but there's still a use for them. Timber, terrain, productivity etc all dictate that.
> 
> For interest's sake, have you heard of the falcon forestry claw? Its a mechanised grapple that you can run on tower yarders



Heard of them. Can't imagine that being cost effective.


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 14, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Heard of them. Can't imagine that being cost effective.



For my edification what makes it expensive hump? I should buy you coffee one day and pick your brain for it's knowledge :msp_w00t:

Oh when we were talkin about trappin I forgot to tell you but my grandpa and dad are supposed to have bountied the last two bobcats in Grays Harbor back in the day.They were usin hounds though.


----------



## hammerlogging (Nov 14, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Seriously though if he can get a 25 ton excavator around he might as well shovel log it. Maybe put a drum on the shovel to reach some of the softer spots.
> 
> .



Of the swamps I've seen the shovelling is fine, tracks are fine, yes they do run wide tracks, a few passes are fine for a shovel or fellerbuncher, but skidders need the corduroy roads. If there are not enough stems per acre to build the road to get to the back end the system is shot. Shovel would work if the distance is short enough, but shovels like some density too.

As Gologit pointed out, many stand factors not known. I don't know if a tracked machine would stay afloat as a tail hold


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 14, 2012)

It might have some issues with staying afloat but just thought. if were using a shovel as a mobile tailhold he could use mud mats as he moved... Would be impractical for shovel logging I would think but just moving on one trail it could work I think.


----------



## Rounder (Nov 14, 2012)

"To the OP, it is not quite as bad as it sounds, but given low density, helicopter may be more feasible, as silly as it sounds." 



Knowing nothing of the economics of the OP's deal...., but a kmax with a good pilot can move wood so fast, it'll make your ####### head spin. Sometimes exspensive at the start is cheaper / less ####ing around in the end.


----------



## hammerlogging (Nov 14, 2012)

Rounder said:


> "To the OP, it is not quite as bad as it sounds, but given low density, helicopter may be more feasible, as silly as it sounds."
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing nothing of the economics of the OP's deal...., but a kmax with a good pilot can move wood so fast, it'll make your ####### head spin. Sometimes exspensive at the start is cheaper / less ####ing around in the end.



Ya, for all I know he's logging old growth cypress out of a real swamp, real 6' dia. stuff, not the 3rd growth tupelo swamps of the southeast swamp loggers. big difference.


----------



## RandyMac (Nov 14, 2012)

Three truck tow - 1,500 hp - one job - [url]www.TruckingFantastic.com - YouTube[/url]


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 15, 2012)

OlympicYJ said:


> For my edification what makes it expensive hump? I should buy you coffee one day and pick your brain for it's knowledge :msp_w00t:
> 
> Oh when we were talkin about trappin I forgot to tell you but my grandpa and dad are supposed to have bountied the last two bobcats in Grays Harbor back in the day.They were usin hounds though.



Narrow roads makes for lots of road changes. That takes time and probably a couple guys to keep up. Only point in the bigger yarder is longer yarding which means the engineer will need a spotter. so you have a crew of four yarding one log at a time as opposed to a crew of 5 or 6 bringing in 4+ logs at a time with less down time for road changes.
Also you can't cold deck much so you have a shovel sitting there idle half the time because there is only one log at a time making it to the landing.

Bottom line is if they were a good idea everyone would be using them which they are not.


----------



## StihlKiwi (Nov 15, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> Narrow roads makes for lots of road changes. That takes time and probably a couple guys to keep up. Only point in the bigger yarder is longer yarding which means the engineer will need a spotter. so you have a crew of four yarding one log at a time as opposed to a crew of 5 or 6 bringing in 4+ logs at a time with less down time for road changes.
> Also you can't cold deck much so you have a shovel sitting there idle half the time because there is only one log at a time making it to the landing.
> 
> Bottom line is if they were a good idea everyone would be using them which they are not.



I take it by roads you mean settings?
Shouldn't need a spotter with the falcon claw; thats what the camera is for, its one of the advantages it has over a traditional grapple. And if you process with the digger that's clearing the chute it lifts the efficiency there.

You raised a good point about grapples in general when you mentioned that not all forests are suitable, but over here there are guys with yarders that will spend years at a time in one forest, on similar terrain. If a grapple suits the job, on it goes. Doesn't take long in the scheme of things to go from a grapple to north-bending etc or vice versa when necessary.


----------



## StihlKiwi (Nov 15, 2012)

RandyMac said:


> Three truck tow - 1,500 hp - one job - [url]www.TruckingFantastic.com - YouTube[/url]



Thats cool, looks like one hell of a road up the hill. There is no way that yarder is 150t though, not even close


----------



## OlympicYJ (Nov 15, 2012)

We must of been typing at the same time hump. Gotcha on the dropline. That's what I was wondering what was making it more expensive in comparison to. Thanks hump.


----------



## Humptulips (Nov 16, 2012)

StihlKiwi said:


> I take it by roads you mean settings?
> Shouldn't need a spotter with the falcon claw; thats what the camera is for, its one of the advantages it has over a traditional grapple. And if you process with the digger that's clearing the chute it lifts the efficiency there.
> 
> You raised a good point about grapples in general when you mentioned that not all forests are suitable, but over here there are guys with yarders that will spend years at a time in one forest, on similar terrain. If a grapple suits the job, on it goes. Doesn't take long in the scheme of things to go from a grapple to north-bending etc or vice versa when necessary.



So how do you keep a decent crew when you've turned it into a part time job?


----------



## StihlKiwi (Nov 16, 2012)

Humptulips said:


> So how do you keep a decent crew when you've turned it into a part time job?



Good point. and one that will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Crews that predominantly run grapples will be able to carry on as normal I guess, and the only crew I'm aware of running a Falcon, other than the crews doing the testing, the owner has got the breaker-outs falling etc, and has said he wont lay them off, although I suspect he most probably wont replace them when they leave.


----------

