# cutting tips please.



## vince (Dec 25, 2005)

This may be a dumb ? but i searched the search forum and couldn't find anything on how to prevent a barber chair from happening so my question is is there a way to cut a tree without having it barber chair or does it depend on all sorts of variables including lean type of wood and so on.


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## DanManofStihl (Dec 25, 2005)

When we do tree work that we think might barber chair we wrap 4 or 5 heavy duty chains around it about a foot from the bottom and about a foot higher every time. We also use wedges and cut at an angle. I hope this helps.


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## Onelick (Dec 25, 2005)

Bore cutting and setting the thickness of the hinge first, then cutting back towards the back, leaving a backstrap, set a wedge if need be, then cut the strap. Best method I've found yet. Basic Game of Logging stuff.


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## mike385 (Dec 27, 2005)

I agree with Onelick, bore cut, set hinge thickness, look for a escape path. I went through the game of logging cutting trees that were on a 30 to 40 degree slope. All trees were at least 18 inches breast high also alot were in the 4 foot diameter.
mike


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## jp hallman (Dec 27, 2005)

Onelick said:


> Bore cutting and setting the thickness of the hinge first, then cutting back towards the back, leaving a backstrap, set a wedge if need be, then cut the strap. Best method I've found yet. Basic Game of Logging stuff.



I agree, best and safest method. If the tree's over four feet or so, cut through the sapwood a few inchs on each side too. Then cut the "holding post" you left on the backside out from the hinge.


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## ajjohnsons (Dec 27, 2005)

Hi Vince, 
Douglas Dent wrote a great book "Professional Timber Falling", you can buy it from Baileys.This book has a lot to offer. Al.


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## Tree Sling'r (Dec 29, 2005)

We make deeper undercuts in certain situations and that helps. On a bigger tree (if I am worried) I will bore into the middle of the tree through my undercut and get rid of a few inches of wood. Your middle wood is what will make a barberchair. Anything on the side will just tear out and that is what we call stump pull. When you start your back cut, just scribe your cut before you start sawing and look at what you have for hinge on both sides. Dawg in and saw your scribe, get both sides sawed up where you have sufficient hinge and leave the middle wood for last - what you have bored will save a barber chair and hassle (unless of course it too big with too much of a lean) and will not have anything to do with where the tree will fall. Your outside hinges along with your undercut will determine the lay of the tree i.e. compensation.
I am a better shower than sayer - hope this makes any sense.


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## smokechase II (Dec 30, 2005)

Vince:
I don't believe Dents book covers the bore out the back method. Most would consider that the safest but I don't think it was in existence or widely understood back then. Dent's book did cover doing a face as far in as you could get it, making sure it was wide, doing two angle cuts that formed a triangle and they at least nipped the holding wood at the corners, then with your sharp saw cutting briskly through the remaining triangle. 
Gerry Beraneck's (sp?) book; titled something like "Fundamentals of General Tree Work", also lists a Coos Bay cut. I have no familiarity with it but would recommend that you have both books on the shelf.
We had a pro cutter that I thought was the best faller/teacher I've ever seen tell us that while the bore was good, he never had a heavy leaner that the Dent identified method, (it actually dates from the X-cut days), above couldn't handle and that he was concerned with the bore method in larger West Coast Trees and bars too short with either method.
I would also suggest that there should be no wedging on a heavy leaner. That could assist a barber chair event, not prevent it. If you were to force the tree over early with wedges or have an untimely wind, either of those could contribute to the barber chair. You want to cut everything you can before it commits.
While working with a cutter on a NE Oregon fire this last summer, he cut a heavy leaning Larch with the bore method. It slabbed up the back just prior to finishing the cut. {Larch was used by pioneers for split rail fences and shakes-because of this splitting ability}. Not anywhere as dangerous as a barber chair, but potentially not good.
Another pro cutter told me of doing a bore cut out the back where the tree did a root pull just as he was finishing his cut. That root came close to grabbing him and pulling him toward the tree. This could be mitigated by cutting the root to stop this prior to the bore cut.
So while you should regard the bore out the back as the best, please be aware of what a complicated world falling is.
The escape path from any potential barber chair is of extreme importance.


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## rebelman (Dec 31, 2005)

All good advice. This may sound like a joke but make sure and notch it. That's the smiley face before the back cut.


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## Freakingstang (Dec 31, 2005)

Never heard the term barber chair before? Anyone care to explain what that is? Thanks

Steve


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## smokechase II (Jan 1, 2006)

Barber Chair:
A heavy leaning tree falls but the holding wood near the horizontal cuts is no longer the fulcrum. The fulcrum can move say 5' - 40' up a split. 
So the tree is now sort of teeter tottered. Whatever the height of the split to the new fulcrum is also the length of the butt that is in the air *behind* the stump.
This will come smashing down. Possibly on an area the faller thought was safe with real power.
Barber chairs are most common in heavy leaning green trees. Other factors such as wind can physically duplicate the effects of a heavy lean.
The stump has a high backed 'barber chair' look.


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## rebelman (Jan 1, 2006)

I just remember some small ten inch or so diameter treees barber chairing on me because I didn't notch. and storm damage I kind of coudn't notch. If you saw my hair, you'd know I stay away from barber chairs.


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## NORMZILLA44 (Jan 7, 2006)

ajjohnsons, you took the words right out of my my good advice. Have a copy of dents bok right here. Smokechase, dents book did cover all the boring technique. I would say it was more widely understood back then. There isnt many guys out ther that know half or even a quarter of that stuff, and lok at the trees they were up against. Also vince barber, chair can occur in many situations not just a heavy leaning tree. Take ajjohnsons advice get that book many good tips for the learner, or pro. Dont just listen to anybody when it comes to tree falling unless you have seen them in action, because youre life in in youre hands. And everbody has their own methods some work some dont, they are not always right just look under the injury, and fatalaty section. Start with the book try saw small trees, dont get in a hurry or take short cuts, and dont get over confident double check, triple check think things through. STAY ALIVE.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 8, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> Never heard the term barber chair before? Anyone care to explain what that is? Thanks
> 
> Steve


Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.


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## gumneck (Jan 8, 2006)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.




Hey Slingr, can't tell from pic but did you have notch on the side facing away from camera? Pls share the details. I bet all that tearing was loud n scearry!


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 9, 2006)

gumneck said:


> Hey Slingr, can't tell from pic but did you have notch on the side facing away from camera? Pls share the details. I bet all that tearing was loud n scearry!


 Yeah my undercut was facing the sameway the tree landed. I guess if you never really seen a barberchair they can be scarier than they often times really are. Don't get me wrong - they are all spooky, but this one was no-nail biter. I get out of the way - so I am usually always safe. A friend of mine barberchaired a 4 1/2 foot shasta fir a few years back that split about 40 feet up. Shasta fir is used for veneir (spelling) so it is peeled. The mill was unable to use that log. It had over 2000bf in just that cut. So rather than facing the consequences the cat skinner buried the log. Everyone wondered whatever happened to that first cut.


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## smokechase II (Jan 9, 2006)

Tree Sling"r:
Boy, have you got my attention. 
"There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens."
In hindsight, sounds like boring wouldn't have made any difference. If you had nipped the corners on the holding wood, could that have helped?
Did the wind come up; did you drive a wedge too hard on a leaner?
Any thoughts on changing cutting technique?

I have had barber chairs on smaller 3" -6" diameter trees that I was thinning.
Knew what the risk was and I was just back cutting, (no undercut), on green young leaners. I was well positioned and not at risk from the tree, but since then I've heard stories about the saw being grabbed and flung even by smaller trees and I wouldn't pull that short-cut stunt again. (I was also curious to study a barber chair event on a small scale).
The times I've seen barber chair stumps in the woods have all been with small face cuts that only went in 25 % max.

How big was your face on that barber chair?


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## Freakingstang (Jan 9, 2006)

Tree Sling'r said:


> Heres one for you, I did this one last spring in Chico, CA. There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens.




WOW, Can honestly say I've never seen that before. Does it have to do with the type of tree (firs and evergreens) or can it happen to anything? I would imagine that that would be fairly hard to achieve with something like oak, or a real hard, hardwood. ?? no? maybe?


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 9, 2006)

smokechase II said:


> Tree Sling"r:
> Boy, have you got my attention.
> "There was maybe a half-inch of hinge wood left on this tree. Sometimes it just happens."
> In hindsight, sounds like boring wouldn't have made any difference. If you had nipped the corners on the holding wood, could that have helped?
> ...


Smokecase, the reason this particular tree barberchaired was because it was a doug fir combined with wedging due to a lean. Doug fir is extremely tough wood and many times your hinge needs to be much narrower than it would like with a pine or a white fir. As far as the face cut and what not - nothing changed compared to the norm - and if I would have expected a barberchair I would have bored a little bit of wood out from the middle of the tree with the tip of my bar through the face cut side. And would have made a deeper undercut. Doug fir can be by far the most complicated evergreen I have ever worked with. Not because it is different or bigger or smaller but, just because it is so tough that it can sometimes cause unexpected issues such as this. But I would say 35% of the wood I cut is doug fir. Like I said there may have been a 1/2 of hinge wood, but wedging sometimes can do as much damage as it can do good. Maybe next time I will not wedge and destroy the thicket of sapplings underneath the lean of the tree.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 9, 2006)

Freakingstang said:


> WOW, Can honestly say I've never seen that before. Does it have to do with the type of tree (firs and evergreens) or can it happen to anything? I would imagine that that would be fairly hard to achieve with something like oak, or a real hard, hardwood. ?? no? maybe?



Freakingstang - pretty much the species of the tree (doug fir) and the situation with the tree is why it barberchaired. There is other techniques I could have used to get it on the groud without incident - but, when nothing is expected the routine stays the same. And with that said - thats how people get hurt in this business. Obviously the unexpected is never expected.
I should also state that not all doug fir is that tough - just depends on the place. A lot of north slope wood is tougher than other areas. We jack a lot of big firs from streams and they are really soft and easy to work with. I suppose it could happen with any species though.


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## smokechase II (Jan 10, 2006)

Tree Sling'r
One thing that sticks with me as I age more and more is the difference in species. Sometimes a particular technique will catch on in one setting, for good reason, at that location.
Had a bud that used to say that Doug Fir was the strength of Western Oregon. Framers, before nail guns, hated Red Fir 'cause it was so hard to drive a nail into.


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## BlackenedTimber (Jan 10, 2006)

i had a barber chair with a 70 ft black walnut, about 26-28" DBH. of coarse, it was right next to a house that was being remodled... i dropped it away from the house, but of couse it barber chaired, and the entire damned thing hung up about 15 above the ground.... I almost wet myself... i thought it was going to fall off to the side and crush the house. It would have if we didnt get on it immediately with ropes and hoist. I still had to stand under it to finish cutting the chair, to drop it away from the house. It was a mess. Everything done to notch and drop that tree was done right, it just happened though. Sometimes you cant control it.


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## clearance (Jan 10, 2006)

The species has nothing to do with it, I like falling Doug. fir cause it is strong predictable wood. Some wood is just bad in itself for chairing, like cottonwood or maple, not Doug.fir. Pay attention to what you are doing and you can directionally slam Doug. fir all day every day with no drama. Barberchairs have killed lots of people in B.C.... because they made it happen.


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## Tree Sling'r (Jan 10, 2006)

clearance said:


> The species has nothing to do with it, I like falling Doug. fir cause it is strong predictable wood. Some wood is just bad in itself for chairing, like cottonwood or maple, not Doug.fir. Pay attention to what you are doing and you can directionally slam Doug. fir all day every day with no drama. Barberchairs have killed lots of people in B.C.... because they made it happen.


After reading back through my posts I made it sound like being a Doug Fir was the only reason the tree barber chaired. Doug Fir in itself is not the only reason - but, with it being as tough as it is with the wedging and difficult lean involved in the particular incident I was refering to is. The strength of the hinge that was left was why it barber chaired. But, don't give me that crap about doug fir not being bad for barberchairing. It is by far the worst evergreen for that. Your climate of doug fir is way different, it is different in W. Oregon and W. Washington as well - it is all softer - just look at the growth rings. That is why I stated some areas are tougher than others. I have cut soft doug fir for months straight and never had any issues. Then I have cut doug fir so hard on the butt that a modded MS660 with seven tooth sprocket would hardly get through it with out back barring, tree that are 100 years old and maybe 20 inch DBH. That is the stuff that barberchairs, not very often but it does - even when everything is done right. I do this everyday, I have for 13 years in 5 different states and have noticed different methods for the same wood in different places. I will admit many barberchairs are created by neglect, but often it is nothing more that freak incident. I know where your coming from, but things are different everywhere.


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## Gologit (Jan 10, 2006)

Tree Sling'r said:


> After reading back through my posts I made it sound like being a Doug Fir was the only reason the tree barber chaired. Doug Fir in itself is not the only reason - but, with it being as tough as it is with the wedging and difficult lean involved in the particular incident I was refering to is. The strength of the hinge that was left was why it barber chaired. But, don't give me that crap about doug fir not being bad for barberchairing. It is by far the worst evergreen for that. Your climate of doug fir is way different, it is different in W. Oregon and W. Washington as well - it is all softer - just look at the growth rings. That is why I stated some areas are tougher than others. I have cut soft doug fir for months straight and never had any issues. Then I have cut doug fir so hard on the butt that a modded MS660 with seven tooth sprocket would hardly get through it with out back barring, tree that are 100 years old and maybe 20 inch DBH. That is the stuff that barberchairs, not very often but it does - even when everything is done right. I do this everyday, I have for 13 years in 5 different states and have noticed different methods for the same wood in different places. I will admit many barberchairs are created by neglect, but often it is nothing more that freak incident. I know where your coming from, but things are different everywhere.


 You got it right. Too many people look for some kind of fool proof formula for dropping trees. They want some kind of procedural guide that absolutely guarantees where each and every tree will fall if they just do this and that and the other thing according to guidelines. Wouldn't it be nice if things worked that way. Every tree is different. Two trees of the same species within ten feet of each other might cut completely different. Stay on your toes..be ready to haul out of there...and don't ever expect the tree to do exactly what you want. Talk to the old fallers or better still...listen to them. They got old in this business for a reason.


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## 046 (Jan 10, 2006)

great info...


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## logbutcher (Jan 11, 2006)

Think, plan your cut, plan the 'escape', know the wood, wedge to fell WHERE you want the tree to go.
*Listen to the Game of Logging guys*. It is some new stuff, but works. Try the program that is used in CPL courses (Certified Professional Logger). And yes, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. I've used it for a few years now and it has changed the way I fell, made it faster, and NO barber chairs, or those close calls with the butt chasing me as the tree drops.
Remember that a barber chair ruins the $$$$ of the tree and can kill.
Basics:
1. plan the fell and hinge.
2. Open face mouth with about 90 degree angle-no triangle baby 45 cut.
3. Bore cut leaving a hinge that is planned to hold the tree for the right fall.
4. Use techniques--wedges, or a "strap"--that will let the tree fall where you want it and give you a safe escape route.
5. Stand back and watch . 
Check out the GOL (Game of Logging) techniques. Many loggers here (smaller DBH than out west) use shorter bars for all cutting.
Happy trails.


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## smokechase II (Jan 11, 2006)

logbutcher:
I have tried the GOL thing and like parts of it. However, I would not want to decrease the size of any craftsman’s tool chest, and that includes the knowledge tool chest. 
Recommendation; don't limit yourself to just one technique.
I do very much agree that small faces are one of the primary contributors to barber chairs, if not the primary. Of all the barber chairs I've seen on stumps in the woods, they *all* had small faces. By that I mean shallow into the tree, like a GOL notch for depth.
By all means, make a high face, but don't short yourself on the depth to just a puny 25 percent in. Float that bar and get a decent face.
And take some of that center holding wood out with a bore cut from the front and/or nip the holding wood at the corners.
Sorry, but I'm gonna drop the Open face/bore the back technique for barber chair potentials. From now on it’s gonna be Open deep face/nip corners/bore the back. 
Granted, that is not specified at http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf on pages 12 and 16. 
But I just can't limit myself after seeing all those shallow faced barber chairs and reading what JimL and Tree Sling'r have to say. Getting down to a 1" or under holding wood hinge is just not enough. I'm gonna use every part of that knowledge tool chest.
(Trivia: My experience has also taught me that the holding wood/hinge will not stay intact anywhere near to the ground on dead trees, rotten wood and drought trees. Additionally, the width of that hinge needs to vary with different tree diameters etc., I.e. a narrow hinge will pull out soon on a bigger tree. What is narrow varies as you go from an 18" tree to a 4 foot tree. So I'd recommend that fallers beware of any specific holding wood rule and use knowledge to vary that holding wood width to get close to or achieve that 'to the ground' control.)
I'm currently putting together a powerpoint on strengths and weaknesses of Open Face Felling and would appreciate any photos or thoughts.
I'll be putting a draft out for comment in a couple months and would be thankful for any thoughts then also.


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## smokechase II (Jan 11, 2006)

Sorry; a duplicate message now deleted


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## 046 (Jan 11, 2006)

does anyone have any diagrams posted anywhere. 

don't want to risk mistaking your meaning


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## smokechase II (Jan 12, 2006)

046:
There is a pretty good site at http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf
Pages 12 & 16 talk about barber chairs a bit.

Later on, there are mentions of boring from the face side and cutting the holding wood at the corners (although different terms are used).

I'll see if I can come up with some more stuff later.


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## clearance (Jan 13, 2006)

TreeSling-Sorry to assume all D-fir is the same, here it is awesome wood to fall, buck or build with. Predictable as the sun and moon (at least for me). The idea of a tree chairing scares me, I really try to be carefull, sharp, full saw, proper cuts to reduce chance. When you are logging you can't pack a 3/8, grade 70 transport chain with a grab hook around with you, but if you are a tree service get one from the truck and use it.


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## logbutcher (Jan 18, 2006)

*"Only You Can Prevent Barber Chairs" -Smokechase II*

Listen to this guy. *I would not want to decrease the size of any craftsman’s tool chest, and that includes the knowledge tool chest. 
Recommendation; don't limit yourself to just one technique.*
Part of all that Game of Logging/CPL/MEMIC program is called " PLAN ".
The corner nip is part of it all also. Since that program I don't use chains, comealongs, and walk away from hung up trees when I manufacture them:bang: . Use more wedges, except on those :censored: rotten hartwood jobs.
What a wimp, huh ? Surprising though, even for this PT hacker, how much faster the cutting goes. And, no more Russian Roulette with leaners.
Happy Trails.
PS Does MEMIC do programs in Oregon ?


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## smokechase II (Jan 18, 2006)

*Memic*

I'll ask around, not aware of any classes.


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## wradman (Feb 10, 2006)

I would say your tree has an extreme lean to it , if this is not the case you need to work on cleaning out your undercut and double checking your holding wood, sometime when in larger hemlock you can also put in small cuts on each side of the holding wood to prevent root pull and barber chairing put it creates a probem with seeing how much holding wood you have left. The other coments on boring work really well on heavy leaners or you can also apply a T cut.


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