# Double-Cut Felling Techniques?



## SteveSr (Oct 24, 2020)

Hello,

Double-cut happens when the tree is larger diameter than the saw bar is long. You basically have to cut from both sides of the tree.

Do any of you have any links to videos or other training materials that show the best practices for dealing with this situation?

Thanks,
Steve


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## northmanlogging (Oct 24, 2020)

and some shameless self promotion


D Douglas Dent has a great book that covers it timberfalling, not sure where to find it these days.

As for double cutting, the biggest thing is establishing your aiming cuts and not chasing them too much, pick a side of the tree to start on, make your first cut, I prefer the level cut, then eyeball 180 deg and try to match it, favoring to be a little shy, you can always take more off, but the idea is to have a nice straight aiming cut without any bulges or curves. Take your time and imagine your cuts as best you can, it takes a lot of practice to pull it off without some clean up. 

As for the back cut, pick the side you do not wan't to be under when the tree starts to fall, and cut it first, leaving some hold wood, then using the existing cut to line your bar up go to the other side and continue on. 

Granted there are literally hundreds of ways to pull this off, the biggest thing is making sure you don't cut away your hold/hinge wood and have a nice clean face cut. the rest is just removing the chunks as they come out.


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## SteveSr (Oct 24, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> D Douglas Dent has a great book that covers it timberfalling, not sure where to find it these days.
> 
> As for double cutting, the biggest thing is establishing your aiming cuts and not chasing them too much, pick a side of the tree to start on, make your first cut, I prefer the level cut, then eyeball 180 deg and try to match it, favoring to be a little shy, you can always take more off, but the idea is to have a nice straight aiming cut without any bulges or curves. Take your time and imagine your cuts as best you can, it takes a lot of practice to pull it off without some clean up.
> 
> ...


I mostly do trail work on the right coast so there is nothing nearly as large as that redwood tree. The main issue is that it can take a several mile hike to the worksite and saw weight is to be minimized. So I always use a MS260 (or equivalent) with a 16" bar. Therefore I end up doing a lot of "double-cutting". The face cut isn't quite so bad as you can see what you are doing to make the cuts line up. The big issue is the bore cut to set the hinge and then the back cut.

One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.

You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically. Horizontally you can sort of eyeball the bar and line it up with the face cut. This would likely leave a horizontal "slice" that would just split out when the tree fell.


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## rwoods (Oct 24, 2020)

Many of us don't bore cut except in certain situations. Might be easier for you to do likewise. Here is a link to Dent's book. https://www.baileysonline.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=dent+book

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Oct 24, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> I mostly do trail work on the right coast so there is nothing nearly as large as that redwood tree. The main issue is that it can take a several mile hike to the worksite and saw weight is to be minimized. So I always use a MS260 (or equivalent) with a 16" bar. Therefore I end up doing a lot of "double-cutting". The face cut isn't quite so bad as you can see what you are doing to make the cuts line up. The big issue is the bore cut to set the hinge and then the back cut.
> 
> One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.
> 
> You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically. Horizontally you can sort of eyeball the bar and line it up with the face cut. This would likely leave a horizontal "slice" that would just split out when the tree fell.


its surprising how little will hold a tree at times, so I will tend to take quite a bit off the ugly side, or use the bar tip and walk it around, so you're really only cutting from one side. Using the tip takes some practice as well, but its effective. East coast folks like to make fun of us long bar west coast guys, but even with 32" bars or better, they often arn't enough to get all the way through, so we have to tickle the off side with the tip, especially on steep ground where you just can't reach the off side without scaffolding or spring boards... and spring boards are cool and all, but if you don't need them its a better day all around. 

Bore cutting isn't something I use often as its really only needed on hard leaners, or extra sketchy rotten stuff.

However, since you are already bore cutting, you can establish the hold wood from the ugly side, then cut back to where your strap is going to be, and just poke the bar out the other side from the narrow point at the strap, then waltz to the other side and use that peep hole to start the second cut, finish setting your hold wood on the pretty side, then dust the strap and skedaddle on out of there


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 25, 2020)

Look up Patrick Lacey on that YouTube or some of the Canadians. Everything cut is bigger than the bar. It’s softwood so you’ll have to interpret that into your situations. You don’t always have to dance around a stick. The less back and forth the more you pay attention. You’ll be less tired and less mistake prone also. But sometimes you don’t have a choice. Northman is right, it’s impressive how little wood will hold a massive amount in place. There’s regulation for everything, then there’s real world experience that dictates what needs to happen, your experience will tell you what to do. Except for really spooky alder it’s rare that anything is bore cut here. If your 16 doesn’t poke through and give you a place to start the back side change to a 20, it’s only a couple more ounce to carry around. If your bar is that much to short search up the coos bay cut, it will eliminate 90% of need to bore. Score a line from corner to corner of your face, I do this all the time on bigger stuff, then you can connect the dots without as much guessing and make sure your cuts line up.



Owl


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## slowp (Oct 25, 2020)

Get a cheery helper to help carry gear. He was a good boy.


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## Cfaller (Oct 25, 2020)

This is good book on timber falling also. Dent's book was written in the early 70's.





Get The Book


Safety & Discipline




theartoffellingtimber.com


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## SteveSr (Oct 25, 2020)

[




slowp said:


> Get a cheery helper to help carry gear. He was a good boy.
> View attachment 863703


Yea, I know people who let their dogs carry some of their gear!


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## SteveSr (Oct 25, 2020)

Cfaller said:


> Dent's book was written in the early 70's.



A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.



Cfaller said:


> This is good book on timber falling also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll take a look at this book.

As volunteers working in NF & other federal land we have to do things their way. They are now mandating (via JHA) an open face face cut... (Must control the fall all the way to the ground). They are also highly recommending (I don't think that it is mandated... yet) bore cutting the hinge as it gives the sawyer time and a way to precisely set everything up correctly before cutting the trigger wood.

Both of these techniques increase the safety for the sawyer which is the reason for doing it. One of my instructors once said that "We are going to ruin you guys for logging" due to the emphasis on safety and not on cutting for production.


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## 2dogs (Oct 25, 2020)

Judging Dent's book before you have ever seen the cover? How tolerant you are.
Your woke instructor has ruined you for learning different techniques for different situations. Please stay east of the Rockies so you won't have to speak with people who cut trees every day and have been doing so for many years and, surprise, live to go home to their families.


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## slowp (Oct 25, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Forest Service in Region 6 does not allow trail crew volunteers to fall trees. They can buck out trails after training and certification either with a chainsaw or misery whip. I am amazed that they allow you to fall trees for trail maintenance as a volunteer. Only the certified and paid trail crew -- FS people, are allowed to do that here, and there isn't much falling to do along trails for them. Contractors, also.

Why are you falling trees along trails?


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## slowp (Oct 25, 2020)

I like my ironing board cover!


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## slowp (Oct 25, 2020)

This is handed out at trail work saw training out here. We have mostly wilderness work. 

Saws That Sing


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## northmanlogging (Oct 25, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of things have changed, but Dent's book is still a good place to start, simply because it shows you and tells you to look at your efforts and criticize them. You can learn more from one mistake then you can by doing it "proper" every time. 

Sounds like some of these folks that are "mandating" stuff don't really understand tree falling, its not always about a perfect cylinder in an open field, many times you don't want the stem attached to the stump all the way to the ground, **** most of the time you really really don't want that especially in a thinning or selective cut situation. You wan't the butt on the ground in front of the stump ASAP. 

Nor do I feel that bore cutting every tree all the time is ever warranted. Most times its just more work and slows you down, both making things ultimately more dangerous by the end of a long day. 


I suppose setting everything perfectly has its benefits, assuming the cutter knows what perfect is to begin with, but in reality dynamic motion can be perfect too, and you can't achieve that while running away...

Anyway, I get that the mucky mucks are doing their best to not have a major liability on their desks but come on, its tree falling, its going to be dangerous, use a little common sense and a little bit of experience and see what happens, one cut to rule them all is a fallacy at best


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## Spotted Owl (Oct 25, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> A lot has changed with tools and techniques in the last 50 years. A lot in the way of improving safety.



A lot hasn’t changed in 50+ years also.... Like volunteers who ask when they already know or decide who knows and who doesn’t before even hearing what might be said/read.

Good luck.



Owl


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Oct 26, 2020)

Quite amazing what a 24 inch bar will cut.
I'm only a short dude


Don't hassle me too much id only cut a couple trees before that 1.

Like northman said learn from mistakes.

First leaner sooo first bore cut too. Still bar far too short but all I had.




Then got a 32 inch bar so headed to the other end of the shelter belt with the learned lessons



Still not really halfway with the 32. The mac isn't parked right to show it but yeah 6 foot tree. Probably cut less than a dozen trees by then. Probably not ideal to learn on lol but ahhhh sink or swim I say. My mates 45cc stihl certainly wasn't cutting that down.

Here's the row of trees.


Haven't got to cut many trees where the bar does reach across all the way. This was like 40 inch I guess




At the end of the day a hinge is a hinge and use common sense like northman said again leave the last bit to cut where you want to be standing. If its a leaner bore it.

To the op Steve surely you must pretty darn competent and dropping trees being a member for this long?

I guess I'm waffling for other newbs like myself finding this thread.

Just look after that hinge at all costs if its a leaner bore it. However ever you decide with whatever length bar just look after that hinge and keep your eyes peeled. So far I have avoided death by following that and be wary of youtube "experts" even many with a heap of subscribers and views are idiots no matter how flash their saw is and how many times they click the brake on and off


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## slowp (Oct 26, 2020)

I deleted my previous post. I am still curious as to what and why the FS is having trail work volunteers fall trees there when it just isn't done in the PNW region. Also, Stevesr, what certification level do you hold? A, B, C????? 
If things have not changed since I retired, an A level is beginning--one is not supposed to cut anything over 12 inches in diameter. A B level is one who is more competent but there is a 24 inch limit. A C faller is very competent and unlimited in the size of tree. What does your card say?

As for carrying a saw in, I padded the bar, as you can see in the dog picture, and carried with that on my shoulder and pack on my back. The saw head can rest on top of the pack, if it is a day pack. You shouldn't be working alone so spread out the load amongst your coworkers. The trail guys where I worked usually rode trail bikes, because if one can use a chainsaw, one is not in wilderness. There are also specific packs made for carrying saws. 

I did not want to fall trees, I just wanted to be able to use a saw to get into timber sales instead of whacking away with a pulaski or waiting for somebody else to cut the road open. I was merely a B Bucker which, as I explained to a production faller who was worked up about being told he could NOT volunteer to cut hazard trees along a road was demanding that I tell him how to fall a tree since I was the certified one. I told him I was merely a bucker and would have to lie down and look at the tree from that perspective (like it was on the ground) . We had a good laugh. 

Ah, waking up to the sound of a dog barfing is a great way to start the day.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2020)

"clicking the brake on and off"


Probably the most annoying thing in a "youtube expert" vidjeo. I can' probably count on one hand the times I've purposefully set the brake in the last 3 years, and usually its because the idle was running a little too high. 

If I climbed more (which I haven't done a whole lot of lately) I could say I did it more, because climbing saws have a mind of their own at times... and whipping a running saw around on a leash without the brake set just seams like less then a good idea lol. 

I'm sure that the internet nannies will have me flogged for it, and I really couldn't care, but the brake shouldn't be relied on, its there largely incase of kickbacks, or if you intend to hand the saw off, or do some really stupid acrobatics such as climbing spring boards while one handing an 084... The rest is all about tip control, keep the bar where you wan't it at all times and don't be a moron... kinda like muzzle control, don't point it at anything you don't want dead.


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## slowp (Oct 26, 2020)

If you were to be certified by the FS, you would be clicking that brake on and off. It's part of the deal. I'm used to doing it and have been glad I did a few times as I am a klutz. I also start a saw using the foot holding it (toes through the handle) method and that is a habit. It scratches the heck out of the saw if you wear calks, but? The only motor I can drop start (which is frowned upon by the FS) is my weed whacker. 

The OP does tell it like it is on the safety aspect. During saw training, they will say over and over that the main object of the training is to teach and stress safety. 

It's a different world from what most here are used to, but the FS deals with a lot of people learning how to run saws and such draconian measures like flipping the chain brake on might keep some from winning Darwin awards.


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## Bwildered (Oct 26, 2020)

There's some funny ideas out there, the chain brake is just like the parking brake on a truck, I'm sure there's still a few out there that use a rock under the wheel to stop the truck rolling away, because it's the macho way of doing it. Come to think of it I have never heard of somebody's day or the rest of their life being ruined by using any sort of brake for its intended purpose.


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## Westboastfaller (Oct 26, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> One thing that I have heard is that you shouldn't take out any more than 1/2 the diameter from the "bad" side and was wondering if there was any regulations/standards to support this. The second cut would be the full bar length from the "good" side.


 IDK, there is a lot of certifications around the world these days and they aren't exactly in agreement with each other.
Even the basic 2 day first aid course in BC, simplfys the protocols compared to the intense occupational first aid courses that required 80 hours in class and 80 at home.
What you say may be a guideline somewhere but is not going to work in all situation under the said 50% as you can't go back down there after the top is cut, You want to make sure...and cut more.
It also wouldn't pose danger in many situations. What they are saying there (worst case scenario) is they don't want you over cutting on the low side of an unstable tree in case the tension wood was to tear off the high side when your down there. Secondly (and more probable) is having the bottom tension wood wanting to pinch the bar. Sometimes we start with a vertical cut with unstable trees and only cut the low side half of the undercut to better your chances of a pinch in order to cut the compression wood behind the hold wood.
I will jump on the same message as Matt (@ Northmanlogging) ,there is simply no one falling cut sequence for every tree.This is why at least BC Fallers Saftey Counsel was smart when they included the clause.."unless you are overcoming a Falling difficulty"

To be continued...





SteveSr said:


> You also have the issue of the hinge setting bore cuts not lining up vertically.


 its not done that way.

To be continued...


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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2020)

Bwildered said:


> There's some funny ideas out there, the chain brake is just like the parking brake on a truck, I'm sure there's still a few out there that use a rock under the wheel to stop the truck rolling away, because it's the macho way of doing it. Come to think of it I have never heard of somebody's day or the rest of their life being ruined by using any sort of brake for its intended purpose.


I get it, safety first etc. 

but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene. 

its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> However, since you are already bore cutting, you can establish the hold wood from the ugly side, then cut back to where your strap is going to be, and just poke the bar out the other side from the narrow point at the strap, then waltz to the other side and use that peep hole to start the second cut, finish setting your hold wood on the pretty side, then dust the strap and skedaddle on out of there


Hadn't thought of that but it would provide a way to make the cuts line up while still leaving the trigger/holding wood.


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## catbuster (Oct 26, 2020)

First off... Screw the bird’s mouth. Both Douglas Dent and Roy Hauser’s books are very good, the principles of falling a tree are the same regardless of what tool you use. I’d like to take one of Roy’s classes some day. 

Double cutting is exactly that. Gun one side of the face in, make your scarf cut. Then you have the choice of boring in & taking that chunk out then working around the other side, or you can get ballsy and come in from the other side and gun the cut in the same direction, make your scarf cut and hope they work. The latter is _far _from a guaranteed thing. The former is a much safer way and it’s easier to make your cuts line up. Don’t overthink it. 

If your bore cuts don’t line up, learn how to hold the saw level. It’s not that hard... Scribe a line around if you have to.

I too, am interested in your falling qualifications to work FS ground, volunteer or not. The last S-212 class, albeit an NWCG class, taught a farmer face as the primary face used. It also introduced me to the new levels (1, 2 & 3) that have replaced A, B & C.


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

slowp said:


> The Forest Service in Region 6 does not allow trail crew volunteers to fall trees. They can buck out trails after training and certification either with a chainsaw or misery whip. I am amazed that they allow you to fall trees for trail maintenance as a volunteer. Only the certified and paid trail crew -- FS


USFS has different rules for different areas. In our area volunteers can be certified up to "B" falling. However this is getting more and more rare as most volunteers do not put in enough saw time to either get or stay proficient.



slowp said:


> Why are you falling trees along trails?


Mostly to get rid of dead trees before they become hazards to hikers and some hazardous trees if the sawyer has the skill and can do it safely. We will also take down any tree that might represent a hazard to a piece of trail infrastructure, mostly bridges. Again, only if the sawyer has the skills to do it safely.


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Quite amazing what a 24 inch bar will cut.
> I'm only a short dude


Or a 16" bar even. You have some massive trees. Everything that I deal with is 99% second and third growth.

At only 150 pounds I am not a big guy either.



Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> To the op Steve surely you must pretty darn competent and dropping trees being a member for this long?


I would consider myself experienced and competent but no expert. I don't have any problem walking away from a situation that I am not 100% sure that I can safely handle. Anyone who thinks that they are an expert may need to think again. All of us just have experience some of which is different than others.



Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> Just look after that hinge at all costs if its a leaner bore it. However ever you decide with whatever length bar just look after that hinge and keep your eyes peeled.


Bore cutting is a good way to mitigate a barber chair in a heavy leaner. Fibers that are already cut can't start a longitudinal split.



Jethro 2t sniffer said:


> So far I have avoided death by following that and be wary of youtube "experts" even many with a heap of subscribers and views are idiots no matter how flash their saw is and how many times they click the brake on and off


Unfortunately, YouTube has a very low barrier to entry and a lot of folks "think" that they are "experts". When anyone asks me how NOT to use a chainsaw my short answer is to go to YouTube and type in "Chainsaw".


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

slowp said:


> I deleted my previous post. I am still curious as to what and why the FS is having trail work volunteers fall trees there when it just isn't done in the PNW region. Also, Stevesr, what certification level do you hold? A, B, C?????


I suspect that volunteer falling isn't allowed in the PNW because the trees are generally *much* bigger and more of them may be compromised (rot) due to the constant high humidity.

I currently hold a "C" bucking and "B" felling certifications.



slowp said:


> If things have not changed since I retired, an A level is beginning--one is not supposed to cut anything over 12 inches in diameter. A B level is one who is more competent but there is a 24 inch limit. A C faller is very competent and unlimited in the size of tree.


Things have changed rather significantly since you have retired. USFS has now introduced the OHLEC complexity guidelines. They don't rate by tree size anymore. The rationale is that a compromised 10" tree could actually be more hazardous than a healthy 24" tree.




slowp said:


> As for carrying a saw in, I padded the bar, as you can see in the dog picture, and carried with that on my shoulder and pack on my back. The saw head can rest on top of the pack, if it is a day pack. You shouldn't be working alone so spread out the load amongst your coworkers. The trail guys where I worked usually rode trail bikes, because if one can use a chainsaw, one is not in wilderness. There are also specific packs made for carrying saws.


I actually made a saw carrier out of an old Kelty external frame pack. Works nice for carrying everything that you will need for a productive day of trail work.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 26, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> I suspect that volunteer falling isn't allowed in the PNW because the trees are generally *much* bigger and more of them may be compromised (rot) due to the constant high humidity.



This is where assuming can get you into trouble lol, the Humidity isn't so bad here, it just rains a lot, and its relatively cool. 

In other words rot isn't generally an issue.

Oddly enough, and i think most west coast cutters will agree a large tree is safer to fall than a little tree, up to a point anyway, these big trees are easier to get a wedge started as a little one will sit back before the bar gets out of the way, and a large tree starts to move real slow, so you have plenty of time to vacate the premises, or correct a cut, them small trees start to tip and are gone in a hurry.


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

catbuster said:


> If your bore cuts don’t line up, learn how to hold the saw level. It’s not that hard... Scribe a line around if you have to.


I am usually pretty close but not always on. Another poster had a nice tip for doing this. I have seen a video of the fire guys using sawdust or fire ashes on the side of the bar as a pseudo level. If the ashes don't vibrate off when the chain is spun the bar is level.



catbuster said:


> I too, am interested in your falling qualifications to work FS ground, volunteer or not. The last S-212 class, albeit an NWCG class, taught a farmer face as the primary face used. It also introduced me to the new levels (1, 2 & 3) that have replaced A, B & C.


USFS is still currently using the A, B, and C classifications and the now somewhat dated MTDC curriculum for volunteer training that won't be dealing with fires. From the best that I can determine the MTDC curriculum is pretty much the same as S-212 with all of the fire stuff removed.


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## SteveSr (Oct 26, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.


Well, believe it or not, the USFS has a rule for this too. It is called the two-step rule and it has noting to do with dancing... unless you're dancing with a chainsaw! Basically if you have to take more than two steps to your next cut the chain brake should be on.


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## Bwildered (Oct 26, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> I get it, safety first etc.
> 
> but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.
> 
> its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.


I've taken a step or few & gone completely arse over tit a few times & luckily still have all my bits, familiarity breeds complacency, I have to remind myself often to put the brake on because I'm especially guilty.


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## Jethro 2t sniffer (Oct 26, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> Or a 16" bar even. You have some massive trees. Everything that I deal with is 99% second and third growth.
> 
> At only 150 pounds I am not a big guy either.
> 
> ...



They are big trees they are everywhere here planted 100 odd years ago. Big eucalyptus big radiata pine those big hairy things are monterrey cypress. They love it here lots of work but wood is wood and free is great  

Yup you tube is scary its a good thing to watch the tree fails videos for a reality check on how South things will go if not on the ball 

I feel very safe using an old mac with no brake at all the slower rpm and the no AV gives a very accurate feel of the tip. They just don't kick as hard. They still will but the bar generally only goes where you put it not where the springs or rubber are sending it.


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## slowp (Oct 27, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> I get it, safety first etc.
> 
> but some of these yayhoo's would have you set the brake anytime the saw isn't actively cutting wood, as in in between every limb, every buck, every step you take the brake MUST BE ON. Which is Ludacris and obscene.
> 
> its not really a macho thing to me, its just understanding how the saw works, and being careful where the ouchy bits are put.


I guess I've been certified by reasonable guys who saw the big picture. I never ran into anybody that hard core. One retired lawyer? who showed up to work on a trail, KICKED MY SAW to see if the chain brake was real. I hope he hurt his foot because he kicked Old Sparkless and that old saw has a lot of metal in it! 
(Not sure if he was a retired lawyer but he sure was twitchy--one of those guys who works fast but not necessarily safe because he's pushing too hard.)

Ever hear of fake chain brakes? I sure haven't.

Still waiting on the OP to answer previous questions. (cue up the Jeopardy tune)


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## slowp (Oct 27, 2020)

The PNW also has protocol for hazard trees. Whether a hazard tree is felled depends on the amount of traffic/time that people would be spending near enough to get clobbered. I'm thinking there is a bit of falling done in some of the burn areas, but you go into the woods on a trail, you take your chances. The FS has a hard time taking care of hazard trees along school bus routes and most trails are not a priority.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 27, 2020)

slowp said:


> I guess I've been certified by reasonable guys who saw the big picture. I never ran into anybody that hard core. One retired lawyer? who showed up to work on a trail, KICKED MY SAW to see if the chain brake was real. I hope he hurt his foot because he kicked Old Sparkless and that old saw has a lot of metal in it!
> (Not sure if he was a retired lawyer but he sure was twitchy--one of those guys who works fast but not necessarily safe because he's pushing too hard.)
> 
> Ever hear of fake chain brakes? I sure haven't.
> ...


There was a brief time when saws came with a bumper to protect your knuckles (cause I guess folks were getting into fist fights with the trees?) 

however, dude kicking someone else's saw is a good reason to get in a fist fight, so maybe the knuckle guards really did serve a purpose?

Lots of them dudes that work hard, and play it off as being better then everyone, but really not accomplishing much for 10x the effort


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## rwoods (Oct 27, 2020)

I had to go back to the first post as I was getting confused as to why a B faller would need basic advice. If you want training materials, here is a good start IMO: https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ard-video-series/introduction-1-of-17?lang=en

Ron


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## SteveSr (Oct 27, 2020)

rwoods said:


> I had to go back to the first post as I was getting confused as to why a B faller would need basic advice. If you want training materials, here is a good start IMO: https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...ard-video-series/introduction-1-of-17?lang=en
> 
> Ron


I was just wondering where the USFS was getting/setting their guidelines for *current* best practices. As folks have noted there are lots of different sources for information. While most pretty much agree there are differences.


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## slowp (Oct 28, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> I was just wondering where the USFS was getting/setting their guidelines for *current* best practices. As folks have noted there are lots of different sources for information. While most pretty much agree there are differences.



Here's my experience with it. In the 1980s, guys were showing up on fires with brand new saws and claiming to be fallers. Forest Service people--falling bosses go out with contract fallers on fires and help out and watch things. These falling bosses were having to return to camp after just a few trees were cut, or attempted to be cut, with the "faller" in tow because the fallers were incompetent. We were also having fatalities and injuries during those years. We had a fatality on our district--a motorist driving by was killed when a hazard tree being felled, went over backwards, and hit him as he drove by. The guys out doing the falling were well versed in falling, but not safety. No flaggers were present, no warning signs, and it was a fairly well used road. That's why the certification started--too many injuries and deaths.

Douglas Dent videos were watched, then one went out with the district expert and started cutting trees. Dent actually went out with some of the local Randle area production fallers to film. I remember them coming into the office afterwards and talking about having a couple of the trees go over backwards that day and having blown the filming of the falling method they wanted to demonstrate. 

Various experts in and out of the agency got together and came up with the certification.

When I got my "permanent" job, I got a call asking if I would want to start work on a precommercial thinning crew. I said yes. I showed up, was given a beater saw, file, chaps and earplugs and told "Don't get hurt." No training. Trial and error was the way I learned and some of the trees were big enough to maim or kill--culls had to come down. I did go get a coworker to cut some of those as I did not know how to do it. I still don't. Found out thirty some years later that the guys on the crew had a pool going on how long I'd last. I made it through the season and was able to cut as much as they did after I figured it out. And, I had to use the chain brake because the old Mac saw I had wouldn't run unless I kept the idle speed turned up. 

The bucking exam I had later in life was going out with our C faller, and bucking and limbing what he told me to do. The same was done with the volunteer organization, except with the latter, I sat through a class before going out.


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## slowp (Oct 28, 2020)

northmanlogging said:


> There was a brief time when saws came with a bumper to protect your knuckles (cause I guess folks were getting into fist fights with the trees?)
> 
> however, dude kicking someone else's saw is a good reason to get in a fist fight, so maybe the knuckle guards really did serve a purpose?
> 
> Lots of them dudes that work hard, and play it off as being better then everyone, but really not accomplishing much for 10x the effort



Karma scared him that day. He misjudged the tension in a blowdown and got knocked over when it released. Nothing serious, but a good scare for him.


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## SteveSr (Oct 28, 2020)

slowp said:


> Here's my experience with it. In the 1980s, guys were showing up on fires with brand new saws and claiming to be fallers. Forest Service people--falling bosses go out with contract fallers on fires and help out and watch things. These falling bosses were having to return to camp after just a few trees were cut, or attempted to be cut, with the "faller" in tow because the fallers were incompetent. We were also having fatalities and injuries during those years. We had a fatality on our district--a motorist driving by was killed when a hazard tree being felled, went over backwards, and hit him as he drove by. The guys out doing the falling were well versed in falling, but not safety. No flaggers were present, no warning signs, and it was a fairly well used road. That's why the certification started--too many injuries and deaths.
> 
> Douglas Dent videos were watched, then one went out with the district expert and started cutting trees. Dent actually went out with some of the local Randle area production fallers to film. I remember them coming into the office afterwards and talking about having a couple of the trees go over backwards that day and having blown the filming of the falling method they wanted to demonstrate.
> 
> ...


GREAT historical perspective! Basically the same thing happened on the east coast. Training was instituted due to too many injuries and fatalities. First to the production guys and then very soon thereafter for the volunteers. As you might expect there was tons of complaining initially but that gradually faded away.


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## SteveSr (Oct 28, 2020)

slowp said:


> Karma scared him that day. He misjudged the tension in a blowdown and got knocked over when it released. Nothing serious, but a good scare for him.


It seems that everyone has their "horror" stories. Even for the "experts" it is sometimes hard to judge the forces in a tree that is not moving.


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## slowp (Oct 28, 2020)

SteveSr said:


> GREAT historical perspective! Basically the same thing happened on the east coast. Training was instituted due to too many injuries and fatalities. First to the production guys and then very soon thereafter for the volunteers. As you might expect there was tons of complaining initially but that gradually faded away.


MMMM, FS doesn't really have "production" cutters. Cutting for a living, and cutting for the FS are two different worlds. In the US, production fallers don't have a certification program, which was explained to me over and over by the faller who wanted to volunteer to fall hazard trees along the school bus route.


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## northmanlogging (Oct 28, 2020)

slowp said:


> MMMM, FS doesn't really have "production" cutters. Cutting for a living, and cutting for the FS are two different worlds. In the US, production fallers don't have a certification program, which was explained to me over and over by the faller who wanted to volunteer to fall hazard trees along the school bus route.


The down side of socialized medicine would more then likely mean getting certified in all sorts of crap... which is why most other countries have 9000 certifications required to do just about any job.


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## slowp (Oct 28, 2020)

And the guy giving me a hard time pointed out that he had safety glasses in his pocket, chaps somewhere at home, but he did wear earplugs.


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## Bwildered (Oct 29, 2020)

slowp said:


> I guess I've been certified by reasonable guys who saw the big picture. I never ran into anybody that hard core. One retired lawyer? who showed up to work on a trail, KICKED MY SAW to see if the chain brake was real. I hope he hurt his foot because he kicked Old Sparkless and that old saw has a lot of metal in it!
> (Not sure if he was a retired lawyer but he sure was twitchy--one of those guys who works fast but not necessarily safe because he's pushing too hard.)
> 
> Ever hear of fake chain brakes? I sure haven't.
> ...


Stihl 090's had fake chain brakes.


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