# Thinning some red pine



## Zackman1801 (Nov 17, 2008)

We have been working the past few weeks on a red pine stand in Oxford Maine with our forestry class and finally today i got some pictures. Its real nasty stuff, it was mostly planted randomly there are no rows to speak of and there is some mixed in hardwoods. The tops are really gnarly and the trees get hung up alot, but its easy to move around because there is no brush. 

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=154.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/154.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Some of the local residents, i dont know if they are Llamas or Alpacas though, strange little things. 

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=157.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/157.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
The truck that holds the crews saws and other gear
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=158.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/158.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
First tree of the day, we had to open up the skid trail.
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=159.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/159.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
making the notch
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=161.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/161.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Bore cut
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=162.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/162.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
finishing it off
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=163.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/163.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
went down nice time to limb :


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 17, 2008)

<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=172.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/172.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Our instructor Al Schaefer on the skidder JD 440c
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=173.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/173.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
skidder
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=174.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/174.jpg" border="0" alt="Al Scaefer on the skidder"></a>
again
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=175.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/175.jpg" border="0" alt="wes making a notch"></a>
falling partner wes taking down a red pine
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=176.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/176.jpg" border="0" alt="Notch"></a>
one of my notches
<a href="http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/?action=view&current=178.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/zackman1801/178.jpg" border="0" alt="HUH?"></a>
OK what do we do here? the red paint means we need to cut it, but the blue stripe indicates that the electric company has limbed it to be used for telephone poles? this is what bugs me about this stand its all mixed up.

Got some video too, enjoy!
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## Jacob J. (Nov 17, 2008)

Looks like fun!


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 17, 2008)

im uploading the video portion right now on you tube but its taking forever. its been about 45min and up up to about 20% so it might be a bit.


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## Mike Van (Nov 17, 2008)

Good pics Zackman - All the red pine down our way is dead from the scale, you might find an isolated live one, but it's getting rare. Years back we got a load of poles [power co. retiree] They'd been CCA treated. When we rolled them off the pole trailer like we always did, some would break right in half. Come to find out, they'd run some dead red's instead of the southern pine they usually used. We had to go replace them all, talk about brittle.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 17, 2008)

yeah there are alot of dead ones in this stand too, they look ok, have green needles but when you cut into em they spray dust, and then when they fall down they smash into 20 little firewood sections, its funny but it can be dangerous because they scatter as they fall. Its really really hard to get the trees to the ground in the middle of the stand where we were working. Other crews have opened up the sections around the outside and they just drop trees off the edge and in the surrounding field but in the middle there are no holes to speak of and you have to find strategic lanes to put the trees in. Sometimes i have to go back 2 trees and fell them in a row so that i can get to the target tree because there is no way to get to the one we need. Atleast this second thinning has more trees marked, in the stand up the road a bit the markings seemed almost random and there were only a few marked so you couldent even open a hole because you could only fall one tree, atleast here there are 5-6 in a bunch marked so you can open up a hole and fall them all there, and then move on, it ends up nice too because they all end up in a pile with all the butts facing one direction.


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## Zackman1801 (Nov 18, 2008)

finally got the video up last night, took forever to download onto youtube. deff watch in high quality, its 100x better.


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## RCR 3 EVER (Dec 5, 2008)

The avatar is of Dad and 1 brother thinning our Red Pines out every other row about 30 years ago. Back then we stacked the logs after we cut them to length and then we hauled them to a central point into a huge stack all by hand with just a tractor and trailer. We used 1 Jonsered saw and it took about 1 summer of weekends to finish the job. 
A semi then came to pick up the logs in several trips. Once as it attempted to drive up the incline to the main road and turn, it tipped over and blocked the road for hours. They probably did not make too much money on that load since we had a contracted amount coming to us.

The Feds had planted the trees long long ago all in rows with the trees about 8ft apart.


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## stihlkicken (Dec 5, 2008)

*humbolt?*

just curious, have you guys ever tried using a humbolt notch?


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 5, 2008)

wont let us. its really not that necessary either, i guess we just do things differently. i have yet to see a humbolt notch around here ever, even in old cuttings. everyone i know that cuts uses the open faced notch.


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## MR4WD (Dec 5, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> wont let us. its really not that necessary either, i guess we just do things differently. i have yet to see a humbolt notch around here ever, even in old cuttings. everyone i know that cuts uses the open faced notch.



Is it quite common to bore cut as well? When you guys make your open face notch, is it supposed to be that shallow and that tall? Just curious,

Chad.


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## gavin (Dec 6, 2008)

i think those are alpacas. nice pics and video. one thing i'd recommend is even with the small saws, get on one knee so you can keep a straight back. always gotta think long term.


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## 371groundie (Dec 6, 2008)

*felling technique*

that how i was taught to fell as well. its the soren erikson / GOL (Game Of Logging) way of doing things. anyone who gets trained in the state of maine gets taught to do it that way, whether they put it to practice or not is a different story. 

some study somwhere found that the large majority of felling injuries came within 7 ft of the stump. that face is supposed to be atleast 90 degrees so the tree can fall to the ground and the hinge remain in tact. that way the but cant jump back or to the side. the bore cut lets you make the hinge a uniform thickness and get a wedge in the back before the tree has a chance to fall. then you can just cut the holding wood in the back and get out of that 7 ft danger zone. 

its a good concept. easy to practice in a nice flat planted pine stand. on hilly or hummocky ground it can lead to some screwed up butt logs because the hinge will hold and slab off a portion of the log. so in high quality wood i cheat and make that notch less of an angle so it closes and breaks the hinge before the tree hits the ground. 

i was taught felling by an old timer and then by somone who did it with the 'open face notch' etc. its nice because i can use both ways or some crazy hybrids to acomplish what i want.


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## 056 kid (Dec 6, 2008)

Lots if people here use the open face notch. It takes longer to get a tree on the ground. I like Humbolt and also use conventional with 1/4 to 1/2 diameter notches.

Have any of you ever seen someone cut like this?!



red is holding wood, black is gutted.


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## forestryworks (Dec 6, 2008)

the ground and the tree (and your saw) will always dictate the face you're gonna cut


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## John Ellison (Dec 6, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> the ground and the tree (and your saw) will always dictate the face you're gonna cut



Thats right, there's no one face fits all.


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## Nailsbeats (Dec 6, 2008)

371groundie said:


> that how i was taught to fell as well. its the soren erikson / GOL (Game Of Logging) way of doing things. anyone who gets trained in the state of maine gets taught to do it that way, whether they put it to practice or not is a different story.
> 
> some study somwhere found that the large majority of felling injuries came within 7 ft of the stump. that face is supposed to be atleast 90 degrees so the tree can fall to the ground and the hinge remain in tact. that way the but cant jump back or to the side. the bore cut lets you make the hinge a uniform thickness and get a wedge in the back before the tree has a chance to fall. then you can just cut the holding wood in the back and get out of that 7 ft danger zone.
> 
> ...



The problem with the high notch when you are felling in close quarters is that you need the tree to release quickly allowing it to roll off of other trees throughout the fall. Otherwise you end up with hangers. Also, what you said about ruining butt logs. I use it for some tree work in yards where I don't want the butt to come off and roll into a target and lumber is not a factor.


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2008)

I think they are alpacas and they are cool. The saying is " once you had alpaca you never go backa"
Allright, I am sorry for that but you should lose the strings hanging off your hoody.


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 7, 2008)

i tried to tuck them in but they always find their way out. my normal shirt was dirty, that one dosent have any hangers to get caught. bore cutting is the norm around here, a few old timers still cut the way they always cut. ive seen some who dont even make notches just cut around and leave a small area of wood cut on what ever way they want it to fall and then wedge it over. i dont get why people think bore cutting is soo dangerous, if you dont use the kickback zone its not going to kick back, ive made tons of bore cuts and never had one.


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## Cletuspsc (Dec 7, 2008)

I use an open face notch and bore cut on everything. ill punch out the center if its real higrade stuff. the safty factor in it really ruls out any thing else. not to bost experience here or any thing but as a production cutter i cut about a million feet a year and i have never had a problem with the open face. it just works and its safe.


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## Zackman1801 (Dec 7, 2008)

yeah, i think that alot of people out west dont really like it for one reason or another, but people around here have openly embraced it. like i said, i dont think i have ever seen anyone else use a humbolt. not saying there is anything wrong with it but people around here just dont use it, not much need to i guess.


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## forestryworks (Dec 7, 2008)

Cletuspsc said:


> I use an open face notch and bore cut on everything. ill punch out the center if its real higrade stuff. the safty factor in it really ruls out any thing else. not to bost experience here or any thing but as a production cutter i cut about a million feet a year and i have never had a problem with the open face. it just works and its safe.



a good faller will have more that one trick up his sleeve and another saw close by


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> i tried to tuck them in but they always find their way out. my normal shirt was dirty, that one dosent have any hangers to get caught. bore cutting is the norm around here, a few old timers still cut the way they always cut. ive seen some who dont even make notches just cut around and leave a small area of wood cut on what ever way they want it to fall and then wedge it over. i dont get why people think bore cutting is soo dangerous, if you dont use the kickback zone its not going to kick back, ive made tons of bore cuts and never had one.



Oh the bore is fine if you wanna, ditch the string, yank it out and throw it away


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## treemandan (Dec 7, 2008)

I forgot to add " Here's looking at you kiddo!"
Did you see his eyeball?
All the straps on a pair a chaps make me nervous too.


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## clearance (Dec 7, 2008)

Nice pic there Dan, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words. 

I use a Humbolt, 30 degrees type. Undercut around 1/3 of the tree diameter. Falling through standing timber is dangerous, more trees should be marked by someone who has experience falling, it seems.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Good luck to you Zack, and be carefull out there.


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## MR.STIHL036 (Dec 10, 2010)

*junk*

we just finished that site last year we all hated it Sheaffer and bean were very pissed on this site now were cutting the parsons road site


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