# Stumpage Prices, I wish we could go back ten years in time !



## clinchscavalry (Sep 16, 2011)

I just finished marking about 140 acres of mostly pulpwood sized trees for a second thinning. One area had larger timber with a good bit of chip-n-saw and some older sawtimber. My management strategy for several years now has been to avoid selling higher product class pine timber due to extremely low stumpage prices. Pulpwood prices are "almost" back to what they were ten years ago, but the larger wood is down to less than one half (or lower) compared to the nineties:bang:. In theory, stumpage prices will rebound at some point, but it's also possible we'll look back and say "man, we had some good prices back in '11":msp_confused:

However, on this particular job, the landowner needed a little extra income so I lightly marked through areas with sawtimber, trying to take out just the trees with cankers, sweep, or those that had fading tops. The loggers were right behind me, which is both good and bad from my standpoint. It's bad to have the feller buncher so close that you can feel the wind from the falling trees, but it's good to be out there to mark skinned or otherwise damaged trees and to make sure a full truckload goes out towards the end of the job.

Here is what really sticks in my craw. I was watching a load of nice pine sawtimber go out yesterday and mentally figured what it was worth to the landowner. A normal load will yield from $700-$800 now. Yet, in the late nineties that same load would be worth $1700-$1800:msp_thumbdn: Small sawtimber is even more disappointing, dropping from $1200/load a decade ago to about $450 now.

I have several client/landowners with twice thinned pine stands waiting for the stumpage prices to (drastically) improve. At some point, the trees will have to be cut regardless, but it's a sad state of affairs when a timberland owner cannot even justify planting pines anymore based on current prices.

Are the rest of you seeing this type of difference in timber prices, or is it just us?

Oh, I almost forgot, due to drought conditions and triple digit temps all summer, the beetles are wide open in this region. I hear the loggers right across the road from my house cutting beetle trees and the green ones that will be infested soon enough, all at less than half the price it was in "the good old days".


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## ridecaptain (Sep 16, 2011)

Timber at an alltime low,but go price lumber.


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## redheadwoodshed (Sep 16, 2011)

It's pretty much the same in Louisiana.


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## madhatte (Sep 16, 2011)

Interesting trend I'm noticing in the PNW recently: FSC-certified timber is commanding a very real premium at the auction block (to the tune of nearly a full 25%!) versus Department Of Revenue's posted average price for a given species, grade, and geographic region. What this tells me is that there is a very real consumer demand for "green" lumber, and the expense of attaining and maintaining FSC certification should more than pay off on all but the smallest ownerships. Mileage may vary in other regions, but these numbers are current and valid for the market in which I work.


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## lfnh (Sep 16, 2011)

Madhatte -
any upward price for the domestic, non-FSC Cert saw timber (pine, fir, spruce) in PNW?

could understand some temporary plywood storm demand swing up..


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## madhatte (Sep 17, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Madhatte -
> any upward price for the domestic, non-FSC Cert saw timber (pine, fir, spruce) in PNW?.



Oh, I'd say so.


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## carguy (Sep 18, 2011)

Here in eastern Virginia the chip-n-saw and saw timber stumpage is about what it was in 1980, which might be less than what it is currently in Georgia. Pulpwood is highly dependent on longer term weather conditions which can change the prices from $7/ton to $12/ton. A lot of the ground will not hold up during prolonged wet weather so the mills can run low on feed stock. The market is terrible and until housing picks up substantially nothing will change. I can't see anything to indicate a housing improvement any time soon, hopefully I am wrong.


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## Oldtimer (Sep 19, 2011)

Best I ever got, straight through price on the landing, for Eastern White Pine, was $295 per thousand. Last I knew, it was down to $275 on the landing, but that was last summer. Been on hardwood since. Oak is down- but not by half from previous highs. Average is maybe $100 per thousand delivered in as memory serves.
Last I heard, hardwood pulp was $34 or $35 a ton delivered in. I have not sold any for almost 2 years though, so i can't say if it's still there. Sold every stick of HW pulp as firewood.


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## earache (Sep 19, 2011)

I need some clarification. I have read and reread this thread. There are some major differences between stumpage pricing and "market" or "delivered" pricing. It seems like you(clinchscavalry) are disappointed in "delivered" price. And in that, I would agree. 
No one around here can sustain any higher stumpage prices. High stumpage prices lower margins for the contractor, causing a whole list of problems(poor roads, poor equipment upkeep, overharvesting, timber theft, etc). The current practice of to "buying" a job has become absolutely ridiculous. Too much of the money is going to the landowner and mills, and not enough to the producer. 
Please clarify.


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## Oldtimer (Sep 20, 2011)

I buy my own wood from private landowners. I always buy my wood with the landowner getting 50-60 % depending on the terrain, the wood, and what they want done.
If the ground is steep and rocky, I make more. If they have flat ground and want every dime they can get, I can make a little less per thousand or ton but make it up on the ease of getting a load out.
If I can't buy the wood right, I don't buy it. Simple as that. I need to make $400 to $500 on a 5500 board foot straight-job load of pine. That allows me to pay the loan on the equipment, buy fuel and supplies, make a weekly "paycheck" and have a little smidge of profit to bank.
It also allows me to do what I call "charity work", IE making and placing log bridges over small streams, lopping the brush like it *should* be lopped, cutting the bent over whips and such, building a landing and then closing it out, etc...that all takes time and fuel and both = $$.


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## mingo (Sep 20, 2011)

The best market we have for white pine right now is loaded on containers and shipped to China. Second best is loaded on trailers and shipped to Canada. When I started in this business we could sell all are logs in a 20 mile radius. Had 10 mills in the county now, only 1 is left and they do all their logging in house. Sad state of rhe American economy.


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## burroak (Sep 20, 2011)

Same in my area.
Being a small landowner, I have more options if I'm willing to work.

I've found I can significantly increase my profits by turning pine into firewood. And this is in hardwood country! People who have firepits, and campfires love the stuff. It's cheap for them, and easy to light. Yet I get roughly 40% more $$ compared to taking the logs to the mill. 
I've been having similar results with the hardwood. Making more money from firewood than taking the logs to the mill. I'm not talking veneer logs though.

Probly not an option for the large landowners, but the small guys like me can still squeek by if you have the time on your hands.


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