# Tricks for untieingreally tight knots?



## ripplerider (Aug 2, 2011)

Anyone have any wisdom/tricks for getting a standing bowline untied from a 3-strand rope that had a LOT of pressure applied to it? Tried using a scrench to prise it apart and can probably get it eventually but seems like I'm marginally damaging the strands like this. This knot usually unties easily for me but this time had another rope tied to it with a Maasdam puller on both ropes at once (2 pullers working in unison to pull a tremendous white pine.) Thouhgt about putting dishwashing soap on it, any thoughts or better ideas?


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## ripplerider (Aug 2, 2011)

Sorry about the spacing in title but I'm not a great typer.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 2, 2011)

I always heard of it as referring to braking its back, when you pull the one section of loop that loosens it up. Seeing as its just three strand you can try smacking it with a hammer.


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## winchman (Aug 2, 2011)

*can't help you this time, but...*

Next time you plan on loading a knot to the extreme, use the "stick trick." Detailed in Gerry Beranek's "Fundamentals" book, it is basically shoving a stick into the knot so that you can break the knot after it's been loaded. 

Try it, you will be soooo happy you did. Just stick a stick into your knot where you want to break it later.


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## chad556 (Aug 2, 2011)

Channellock pliers and vice grips. If you are worried about the pliers' teeth damaging the rope try wrapping the rope in a rag or something that will take the abrasion. Use the mechanical advantage of the pliers and you will get the knot to break rather easily. Thats how i do it.


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 3, 2011)

Sometimes have to cut out the middle of the wood inside of the rope's wrap around the wood, crush the wood into pieces, and take the wood out from the loop of rope. As the rope is free of the wood I take the knot down with a 23 oz hammer.


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## ripplerider (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks guys. Yeah I know the "stick trick" but it's too late for this particular knot. Didnt realize I was going to have to put so much pressure on it before I tied it. Got a job to do tomorrow involving dropping about a dozen trees from the ground, along with a couple of climbers. So I went over there last night with my son and hung ropes in about 10 of them to expeditite things this morning. Used several ropes that havent seen the light of day for quite some time. I'll get those bowlines out , just takes some elbow grease. I just hate to beat on my ropes with a hammer or prise on thom with a screwdriver too much. Spraying them with diluted laundry detergent didnt seem to help at all.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 3, 2011)

Use a better knot , a properly tied good knot no matter how tight it is always unties .... You could pull a plane with a bowline and it will untie by hand ....


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## the Aerialist (Aug 3, 2011)

*Get the right tool for the job ...*



ripplerider said:


> Thanks guys. Yeah I know the "stick trick" but it's too late for this particular knot. Didnt realize I was going to have to put so much pressure on it before I tied it. Got a job to do tomorrow involving dropping about a dozen trees from the ground, along with a couple of climbers. So I went over there last night with my son and hung ropes in about 10 of them to expeditite things this morning. Used several ropes that havent seen the light of day for quite some time. I'll get those bowlines out , just takes some elbow grease. I just hate to beat on my ropes with a hammer or prise on thom with a screwdriver too much. Spraying them with diluted laundry detergent didnt seem to help at all.


 
And that would be a Marlin Spike. Here's a mini one I always have with me on the job:


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## the Aerialist (Aug 3, 2011)

*Use the right tool for the job ...*



ripplerider said:


> Thanks guys. Yeah I know the "stick trick" but it's too late for this particular knot. Didnt realize I was going to have to put so much pressure on it before I tied it. Got a job to do tomorrow involving dropping about a dozen trees from the ground, along with a couple of climbers. So I went over there last night with my son and hung ropes in about 10 of them to expeditite things this morning. Used several ropes that havent seen the light of day for quite some time. I'll get those bowlines out , just takes some elbow grease. I just hate to beat on my ropes with a hammer or prise on thom with a screwdriver too much. Spraying them with diluted laundry detergent didnt seem to help at all.


 
And that would be a Marlin Spike, here's a mini version I always carry on jobs:


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## zopi (Aug 3, 2011)

Lay the knot on the log or something and take a billet of wood or a mallet or some thing and give it a few whacks...turn ninety degrees and repeat....wiggle the line a bit...do it all again...it will work out...also works for getting water knots or fishermen's bends out of webbing loops...


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## ripplerider (Aug 3, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Use a better knot , a properly tied good knot no matter how tight it is always unties .... You could pull a plane with a bowline and it will untie by hand ....


 
Bullcrap101 I've been tying a proper bowline for more than 20 yrs. and I've had a couple stick under extreme conditions. I bet plenty other people on here have too.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 3, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Use a better knot , a properly tied good knot no matter how tight it is always unties .... You could pull a plane with a bowline and it will untie by hand ....


 
Properly, right.
Nope, you better use a 'Double Bowline ' on that. 
Jeff


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## Captain Crunch (Aug 3, 2011)

It's sounds like tension was applied to the bitter end (loose end) of the bowline, probably what made it so tight. A knitting needle might be easier to find/cheaper than a marlin spike. Normal use, never had a bowline stick like this. 
For pulling on both ends and the loop, try an alpine butterfly.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 3, 2011)

You do know that half hitch's along the line after the knot can make your life easier.
Jeff :msp_unsure:


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 3, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> If a properly tied bowline sticks there is a very good chance that the rope has been subjected to stress beyond it's recommended safe range of operation.


 
How many times you gonna change your name? 
Jeff :msp_rolleyes:


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## ripplerider (Aug 4, 2011)

Captain Crunch said:


> It's sounds like tension was applied to the bitter end (loose end) of the bowline, probably what made it so tight. A knitting needle might be easier to find/cheaper than a marlin spike. Normal use, never had a bowline stick like this.
> For pulling on both ends and the loop, try an alpine butterfly.


 
Yep, thats what we did. Had a rope puller on the main line and another on a different rope tied into the bowline. I'll never do that again. I'll try the Alpine butterfly sometime though.


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## Captain Crunch (Aug 4, 2011)

Del_Corbin said:


> Under heavy load the alpine butterfly will get tighter than #### and is not as easily broken as a bowline.


 
I guess I have only used it under normal heavy load not woodcutters heavy. 
I only use the alpinebutterfly if I NEED to pull on both ends of the rope. Otherwise bowline or as Jeff suggested, some form of taughtline hitch.


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## treemandan (Aug 4, 2011)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> I always heard of it as referring to braking its back, when you pull the one section of loop that loosens it up. Seeing as its just three strand you can try smacking it with a hammer.


 
A plus plus. Hammer knots.:msp_scared:


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 4, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> You do know that half hitch's along the line after the knot can make your life easier.
> Jeff :msp_unsure:


 
Everyone trust this guy. He knows is stuff. This man climbs more trees per day than the total climbers in the state of Arkansaw.....2 many. And believe it or not he keeps his smart phone on this website the whole time as he's making those cuts, so he's got a bead on the tree guy dope first hand in the trees, and a he's a bead on your prayers of distress simultaneously. He doesn't even take breaks. 

I can here Jeff now shutting down the big Stihler. He heard that phone notify him of another post in the forums. :Eye:


Jeff, send me a hard back copy of your tree workers guide. I'll pay full price. I've got that Clove hitch and half hitch working already. This stuff is priceless. I bet the Jeff Hitch is somewhere in that book.


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## millbilly (Aug 5, 2011)

Should of used a hatchet bowline there very east to untie no matter how tight they get just get out the hatchet. In my next post I will explain the dragin bowline :jester:


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 5, 2011)

We pulled out a chip truck from the mud with a double bowline and it was easy to untie.
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Aug 5, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> We pulled out a chip truck from the mud with a double bowline and it was easy to untie.
> Jeff


 
Yep. that's what old school really means jeffers! 

Love that knot... use it all the time with the tractor winch!


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 5, 2011)

Jeff,
I still say the Clove and Half Hitches will successfully bind beyond what is needed. I've found that the two have been extremely purposeful, my friend.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 5, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> Jeff,
> I still say the Clove and Half Hitches will successfully bind beyond what is needed. I've found that the two have been extremely purposeful, my friend.


 
Hey FTA,(I will call you 'Ed') just add another half hitch, keep the clove and when it gets heavy, throw another half hitch.
BTW, I would push to get rid of those euc suckers.
Jeff


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 5, 2011)

You can call me Jose Poseroo for all I care. opcorn:

ANOTHER HALF HITCH??? It would be a week before they could send back up the rope untie. I sort of like this running bowline.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 5, 2011)

opcorn:
Jeff


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 5, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> Bullcrap101 I've been tying a proper bowline for more than 20 yrs. and I've had a couple stick under extreme conditions. I bet plenty other people on here have too.


 
An outpouring of agreement no doubt ...


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 5, 2011)

Are you 'Left-handed'?
Jeff :msp_wink:


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 5, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Are you 'Left-handed'?
> Jeff :msp_wink:


 
Why cause I am smarter than you ?????


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## tree MDS (Aug 6, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> An outpouring of agreement no doubt ...



Not from here... sounds like another internet jackass, know nothing wannabee to me..


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## ripplerider (Aug 6, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> Not from here... sounds like another internet jackass, know nothing wannabee to me..


 
You can tell all that from one thread about a stuck knot huh? From the amount of people talking about beating on knots with hammers I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one ever had a knot tighten up on me. Hell, if I'd wanted to do that I wouldnt have come on here looking for intelligent feedback. People like you are the reason I dont post on here more. I have too much work to do to spend a lot of time blowing my own horn on here. Also have a family to raise. But since you've called me a "know nothing wannabee" I will give you a little background... I started out running ropes and dragging brush on weekends for an old friend who worked for a right-of-way company through the week and did residential on weekends. This guy was an exceptional old-school climber, he amazed me and made me want to learn the trade. When an opportunity came up I went to work for the same company (approx. 1 yr. later.) I made foreman within 2 yrs. after proving myself on the Blizzard of '93. This company was a little different than most of the others around here, we trimmed everthing from ground to top. Lots of limbwalking over powerlines. Have you ever pulled overhang growing 20 ft. across a 3-phase line, only a couple of ft. above it? Maybe you have. Of course we wore spikes while doing so so I guess we were hacks but we were hacks who made proper cuts and tried our best to make the tree look decent when we got done with it. Ran a crew for 16 yrs. for this company, worked a lot of storms... hurricanes (Fran, Opal, Katrina, cant remember names of all of them) tornadoes and a lot of ice storms. All this time I'm running an ad and doing residential work on Fri. and Sat. Learned to climb spikeless though I'm not the best at it. Now I'm running my own show with an International chip truck, a Brush Bandit 250+ lot of climbing gear and saws. I still do almost all my own climbing at 50 yrs. old. Oh, by the way I found time to become a certified arborist along the way (C.A. no. 182113), Are you a C.A.? Sorry for wasting your time as a wannabee. Gotta love an internet hero like you, bet you wouldnt talk like that to my face, not but once anyway.


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## the Aerialist (Aug 6, 2011)

*The Real Internet Jackass ...*



ripplerider said:


> You can tell all that from one thread about a stuck knot huh? From the amount of people talking about beating on knots with hammers I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one ever had a knot tighten up on me. Hell, if I'd wanted to do that I wouldnt have come on here looking for intelligent feedback. People like you are the reason I dont post on here more... Gotta love an internet hero like you, bet you wouldnt talk like that to my face, not but once anyway.



He'd pee his pants if he had to deal with anyone face to face. His type gain courage from being behind an internet connection. Any knot can overtighten with enough force applied. That's why this was invented hundreds of years ago:


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 6, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> You can tell all that from one thread about a stuck knot huh? From the amount of people talking about beating on knots with hammers I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one ever had a knot tighten up on me. Hell, if I'd wanted to do that I wouldnt have come on here looking for intelligent feedback. People like you are the reason I dont post on here more. I have too much work to do to spend a lot of time blowing my own horn on here. Also have a family to raise. But since you've called me a "know nothing wannabee" I will give you a little background... I started out running ropes and dragging brush on weekends for an old friend who worked for a right-of-way company through the week and did residential on weekends. This guy was an exceptional old-school climber, he amazed me and made me want to learn the trade. When an opportunity came up I went to work for the same company (approx. 1 yr. later.) I made foreman within 2 yrs. after proving myself on the Blizzard of '93. This company was a little different than most of the others around here, we trimmed everthing from ground to top. Lots of limbwalking over powerlines. Have you ever pulled overhang growing 20 ft. across a 3-phase line, only a couple of ft. above it? Maybe you have. Of course we wore spikes while doing so so I guess we were hacks but we were hacks who made proper cuts and tried our best to make the tree look decent when we got done with it. Ran a crew for 16 yrs. for this company, worked a lot of storms... hurricanes (Fran, Opal, Katrina, cant remember names of all of them) tornadoes and a lot of ice storms. All this time I'm running an ad and doing residential work on Fri. and Sat. Learned to climb spikeless though I'm not the best at it. Now I'm running my own show with an International chip truck, a Brush Bandit 250+ lot of climbing gear and saws. I still do almost all my own climbing at 50 yrs. old. Oh, by the way I found time to become a certified arborist along the way (C.A. no. 182113), Are you a C.A.? Sorry for wasting your time as a wannabee. Gotta love an internet hero like you, bet you wouldnt talk like that to my face, not but once anyway.


 
Actually he was talking to me ....... I am the wannabee JO he was referring too , now look ya got sore fingers and a bruised ego for nuttin...


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 6, 2011)

Aerial_Arborist said:


> He'd pee his pants if he had to deal with anyone face to face. His type gain courage from being behind an internet connection. Any knot can overtighten with enough force applied. That's why this was invented hundreds of years ago:


 
Again tie a proper knot for what your doing and you can leave the zit popper behind the seat , I haven't needed a hammer or stick to break a knot ever , and on a daily basis it would seem that a more experienced ground man or climber would say the same ...


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## ripplerider (Aug 6, 2011)

Oh. Nevermind then.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 6, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> Oh. Nevermind then.


 
And I am not gonna change my opinion because of your lengthy time as a tree man , if your still beating the rope to break a knot than your doing it wrong .... A good proper knot always can be broken by a hand , and mostly nothing more than a strong thumb...


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## tree MDS (Aug 6, 2011)

RR, I guess I was wrong in assuming that you were green then... I mean every seasoned treeman comes to an internet forum and asks how to untie his knots.. right? 

No need to fight over it!


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## Pelorus (Aug 6, 2011)

The odd time a bowline on a bight will require assistance from a hammer & chain wrench. Rare occurence (on heavy pulls) and I'm damn sure that knot is tied and set correctly. It happens.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 6, 2011)

I just put a stick in the bowline if it's going to be loaded heavy. Anything that gets by me gets pryed apart with two Vise Grips, but that's few and far between.


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## newsawtooth (Aug 7, 2011)

Aerial_Arborist said:


> He'd pee his pants if he had to deal with anyone face to face. His type gain courage from being behind an internet connection. Any knot can overtighten with enough force applied. That's why this was invented hundreds of years ago:



Aerial, why'd ya bring my church key into this? What did it ever do to you?


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## ripplerider (Aug 7, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> And I am not gonna change my opinion because of your lengthy time as a tree man , if your still beating the rope to break a knot than your doing it wrong .... A good proper knot always can be broken by a hand , and mostly nothing more than a strong thumb...


 
I am not beating the knot, thats why I came on here looking for advice. This has happened twice in my entire career. First time I was trying to pull up a entire clump of redtips by the roots. Was using an old short rope and a pick-up. Guess you could say I overloaded the knot ,whatever, there were no targets and the job got done. The second time I applied tension to the loop AND the tag endof the rope. Had 2 ropepullers going at once. I wont do that again. 99.9% of my knots come apart with ease. But if you pull something long and hard enough for enough yrs. sometime, somewhere you'll have a knot tighten up on you.


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## the Aerialist (Aug 7, 2011)

*It don't even have to be a knot to get stuck ...*

I've had my gas powered capstan wench seize the three strand rope on it when one coil crossed another. That's not even a knot and it had to be cut off.


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## ripplerider (Aug 7, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> RR, I guess I was wrong in assuming that you were green then... I mean every seasoned treeman comes to an internet forum and asks how to untie his knots.. right?
> 
> No need to fight over it!


 
Sorry I made the mistake of coming on here and asking advice... apparently thats not what it's for... must be a place for snap judgements and ill-informed put-downs, If I wanted to hear that I'd still be with my ex-wife...actually you remind me of her. Dont want to fight about it? Don't make smart-aleck, non-productive posts. Thanks to all who offered real advice.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 7, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> Sorry I made the mistake of coming on here and asking advice... apparently thats not what it's for... must be a place for snap judgements and ill-informed put-downs, If I wanted to hear that I'd still be with my ex-wife...actually you remind me of her. Dont want to fight about it? Don't make smart-aleck, non-productive posts. Thanks to all who offered real advice.


 
I look at it like this , whether it is sports or work related , there is some jabbing and JOKING in all , I am not immune to it , and often find myself at the brunt of a joke , so with that being said you are a experienced tree man Starting a thread on breaking tight knots , maybe if you step back and see that this would something like a mechanic saying that he still scrapes and knuckle and can't figure out why ..... I am not taking personal jabs at anyone just the stupid #### that may be said .... And I am a smart### flat out .... So I am sorry ...


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## Havana woody (Aug 7, 2011)

ForTheAction said:


> Everyone trust this guy. He knows is stuff. This man climbs more trees per day than the total climbers in the state of Arkansaw.....2 many. And believe it or not he keeps his smart phone on this website the whole time as he's making those cuts, so he's got a bead on the tree guy dope first hand in the trees, and a he's a bead on your prayers of distress simultaneously. He doesn't even take breaks.
> 
> I can here Jeff now shutting down the big Stihler. He heard that phone notify him of another post in the forums. :Eye:
> 
> ...


 Has he got a blue ox and eats mountains of pancakes too. Or is that blue waffles and a mountian of bull?


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## tree MDS (Aug 7, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> Sorry I made the mistake of coming on here and asking advice... apparently thats not what it's for... must be a place for snap judgements and ill-informed put-downs, If I wanted to hear that I'd still be with my ex-wife...actually you remind me of her. Dont want to fight about it? Don't make smart-aleck, non-productive posts. Thanks to all who offered real advice.



It's okay dude, settle down already! 

Maybe try a double bowline next time (pretty sure that's what this is). I pull trees, butt logs etc. over with my tractor winch all the time using it, never had one lock up yet.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 7, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> It's okay dude, settle down already!
> 
> Maybe try a double bowline next time (pretty sure that's what this is). I pull trees, butt logs etc. over with my tractor winch all the time using it, never had one lock up yet.


 
Thats it.

Jeff


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## tree MDS (Aug 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Thats it.
> 
> Jeff


 
You don't think it needs a stick jammed in there somewhere jeff?


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 7, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> You don't think it needs a stick jammed in there somewhere jeff?


 
Nah....... there all stuck up his ###


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 7, 2011)

treeclimber101 said:


> Nah....... there all stuck up his ###


 
You a funny Goob, haha!
Jeff


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## ripplerider (Aug 7, 2011)

Looks like a doubled-up version of the standing bowline I use. I'll have to try it. Thanks for the informative post. It's all good.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 7, 2011)

jefflovstrom said:


> Properly, right.
> Nope, you better use a 'Double Bowline ' on that.
> Jeff


 
Hey, thats what I said.
Jeff


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2011)

ripplerider said:


> Bullcrap101 I've been tying a proper bowline for more than 20 yrs. and I've had a couple stick under extreme conditions. I bet plenty other people on here have too.


 
Sounds like yer not using the proper bowline. Try a double bowline or a bowline on a bight.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2011)

tree MDS said:


> It's okay dude, settle down already!
> 
> Maybe try a double bowline next time (pretty sure that's what this is). I pull trees, butt logs etc. over with my tractor winch all the time using it, never had one lock up yet.


 
Hook that to a big loader and yank all you want then pop that knot right out everytime. Really, if yer pullin hard enough to bind that knot up yer doing something stupit I would say.


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## treemandan (Aug 7, 2011)

You can make a bowline with as many loops as you want. The more the merrier.


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 8, 2011)

Hey, a double bowline :msp_thumbup:

You know I'm the bubba type they say. I hang my pick'em up truck in a tree a lot with a rope and a Stein to work on it, and I get worn out always trying to untie all of the granny knots I put in my ropes.


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## pdqdl (Aug 8, 2011)

It's too late to talk about untying a knot, so let me just comment that there is a knot for every application, and there is a knot available for every load that can be untied.

The alpine butterfly is highly recommended for mid-line knots, but it will sure bind up tight. Double bowline...probably ok. 

I usually pipe up at times like this with my favorite midline knot : Man-harness knot. It always unties, but it is not without it's imperfections, too.

If you are ruining ropes with knots that don't come out, then you need to spend a little more time each evening studying the books, and practicing the ones you don't know too well. Eventually, you won't be posting questions.


BTW: there is a special knot that is purpose built for towing trucks out of the mud, Jeff. I forget the name, but it is listed in ABOK, and I have used it very effectively. If you want, I can post a picture.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 8, 2011)

pdqdl said:


> It's too late to talk about untying a knot, so let me just comment that there is a knot for every application, and there is a knot available for every load that can be untied.
> 
> The alpine butterfly is highly recommended for mid-line knots, but it will sure bind up tight. Double bowline...probably ok.
> 
> ...


 
Go ahead and post it please, although I have never had a problem with a double bowline. I just repped you for your last post,
Jeff


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## Havana woody (Jan 28, 2012)

Still waiting on this solution?


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## knudeNoggin (Jan 29, 2012)

Havana woody said:


> Still waiting on this solution?



And waiting on that offered post of an image out of _Ashley's Book of Knots_
--just a # will do for me (I have the book).

Yes, even _bowlines_ can jam, although they can be tested
to rupture (one in each end of a test specimen) without jamming;
YMMV depending upon materials and setting and, if I understand
the OP's case, loading --he loaded the tail as well as the eye.
Which tightens the collar (rabbit path around tree; the bight formed
by the tail) sufficiently that, with elastic material, the load-reduced
diameter will see the tight collar become too tight (jammed) when
tension's off and the main line swells back to original diameter but
cannot squeeze back into the knot.

To answer the How to Untie question, I'll just echo what some others
suggested about using tools, and add that perhaps some salad oil on
the main line at the collar will help it slip back through.

As for a better knot ... ? In the OP's case, loading the tail was the
likely problem (why not put that 2nd loading also into the eye?).
A _water bowline_ (i.e., running the rabbit through a _clove hitch_)
would add grip to the tail leg and let you leave the collar looser
(without fear of the knot capsizing), and should prove immune to jamming.

Another _bowline_-like knot is ABOK #1033. Here, one proceeds
as though tying the _bowline_ in the "rabbit out of hole ..." method,
but instead of taking the tail back through the hole immediately,
go around the eye leg that flows from the main line, AND THEN
through the hole in the opposite direction (to the _bowline's_ way)
--looks sort of like the _carrick bend_'s lattice-like weaving
(before that ends-joining knot is capsized into form on setting).
And you'd leave this tail rather loose, at least not pulled as tight
as it could be (which would fold that eye leg back); that should
never be able to be jammed.


*kN*


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## tree md (Jan 29, 2012)

Love ABOK.

When I know I am going to heavily load a line I will use a knot where I take two coils and double them back on each other. Not sure what it would be called but it is one of the first knots I learned to use when I started learning tree work. It is the easiest I have found to break and untie. Even better than the butterfly knot, which can be a ##### to untie.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 29, 2012)

Dang! Just use a double bowline.
Jeff


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## superjunior (Jan 30, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Dang! Just use a double bowline.
> Jeff



that's what I use when I know its gonna be loaded up..


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