# swabish vs. distal



## Smith (Jan 25, 2002)

*schwabisch prusicks*

Does anyone out there use a schwabich prusick to climb on? I've used it on a couple of jobs and for some rec. climbing. I find it can be used like a blake for hip thrusting or like a V.T but with out a micro pully. Has anyone had problems with it slipping? I think I'd like some info on it before I start using it exclusively.

Thanks


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## tshanefreeman (Jan 25, 2002)

Smith,

I climb with the Schwabisch Prusik practically everytime that I am up in a tree, walking amongst the branches. If I have to hip-thrust upto the lower limbs (ex: if they were upwards of 10-20' from the ground), I usually use a Blake's Hitch, which I can tie in such a way as to maximize my knot advancing. Once I am on the desired branches where I'm to begin working, I will hook in with my lanyard, untie from the Blakes, and tie my Schwabisch. It sounds like a lot of wasted time, but really it only takes a few minutes; which I feel that are easily saved once climbing amongst the limbs.

I tie my Schwabisch prusik using a 12" eye-to-eye prusik rope. The prusik is tied around the climber's line, and then hooked to the saddle's D-ring with a carabiener. I also make use of a micro-pulley to aid in the advancing of the knot. I find that knot advancing is far easier when I can simply pull upwards on the slack end of the climbing line.

As for the performance: I find that this particular prusik is the best friction hitch that I have used to date. I first began climbing with the Tautline Hitch and found that it sometime loosened and turned into the dreaded 'Sui-Slide'. However, the Schawbisch and even the Distal Prusik (which is a simple variation of the Schawbisch, just that the tails end up facing away from each other, instead of in the same direction) seem to preform far better. I never have to worry about screaming my way to the ground! 

A tip that I can give you, is that I use a 16-strand 12" eye-to-eye prusik tied in the pre-described fashion. It never fails! However, I first tried the Distal Hitch (the Schwabisch variation) with a 3 strand eye-to-eye prusik. This setup sometimes slipped slightly. 

Goodluck with your climbing.
Shane Freeman


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## Greg (Jan 25, 2002)

*sp*

I use a swabish only for attaching my micropulley to my climbing line for knot tending, and only because it is very quick and easy to tie. I've tried climbing with it and found it just locks up too much, but I say that about every climbing hitch except the blakes and Distal. 
The distal is a great knot, I use it on my lanyard with a william biner and micropully. The distal set up on my 15foot lanyard makes it my most used peice of gear.

Smilies are annoying!
Greg


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 26, 2002)

i favour a distal, and New England 3 strand Hy-Vee as my 'tail'.

i think the stifness of the 3 strand makes a lot of diffrence in how it grips the line, this is a medium lay. For me Tree Master is to stiff and 'opens' too easy allowing sliding. I like 3 strand in tails and lanyards because it is so easy to eyesplice, especially with Hy-Vee; as 1 strand is marked. 

i also think that 3 strand on a braided line has interesting gripping characteristics. For a while i even used a 3 strand 5/8 for a tail; so maybe my habits are sharpenned from that time!


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## Smith (Jan 26, 2002)

thanks for the info guys. I was wondering if any of you have tried to use the schwabisch with out a micro pully? last time I used it I could advance my knot the same way without a pully as with. Is this a normal characteristic of this knot (mabey I should check how I tied it!)

Thanks Again


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 26, 2002)

Shane, have you tried using ascenders on DRT to get to a working hight then putting the working knot in?


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## Rob Murphy (Feb 3, 2002)

As a old body thruster from way back i am using this system rather than change hitches. I havent tried combined with pantim but will shortly.Of course srt for really big stuff!







To move the friction hitch away from me if Iam doing body thrusting and want to get full extension I.....
1)Form a marlin spike on climbing line above terminal knot(set at desired distance)
2) unclip beaner with friction hitch and micro pully from D on Harness..
3)clip said beaner into marlin spike
And away I go...
Note: friction hitch and pulley set on small end of beaner.
Adv..simple system 
DisAdv..Must clip in to change crotches,dont set knot too far away as it can be difficult to reach.


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## Rob Murphy (Feb 3, 2002)

Distal or schwabich slipage seems more to do with rope combo's than the qualities of the knots themslves.
Murh sumising..........


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## TheTreeSpyder (Feb 3, 2002)

Wow, very good Murph!

i think that it makes tons of diffrence, on the timing of body thrusting. Keep psyched that you are working a 2/1 - friction machine; use low friction.

When i buck my hips up, i allow my chest and shoulders to fall back violently while tightly gripping rope to my face; all in one motion. i try to minimize arm usage, by making the input power for this 2/1 machine - the action of my chest and shoulders falling back. When bucking hips up, i have legs folded to me for less leverage against me while fighting gravity; keeping its awesome pull minimized. Then i pull down on arms at bottom of motion as that is used to complete action of pushing hips up. While kicking out and rock extended legs down with gravity pulling at maximum on leverage of feet/ legs, to leverage chest up through pivot of seat connection!

In a lot of SRT/DRT i have observed a common denominator of fighting the weight of head, chest , shouders and arms as something that can take a lot of energy in itself . Instead of that energy directed straight into goal. Keeping them in line with rope can be very important and draining. Eye see that as a function of our assembly; that part of the body and its mass are leveraged against the pivot of the seat connection. They are the most weight at the farthest point of the lever, well in most anyway! Perhaps the feet are farther, but lighter, and easier to lessen leverage, by folding up under neath. Also in vertical position, naturally hang under seat connection; while chest wants to fall a weigh. In this scenario, i not only find myself neutralizing a lot of effort used to fight this effect (as in chest harness), but using it's force towards goal.

Still haven't assembled and tried Tom's chest harness/traxion and pantin deal though, maybe he could run it by again?

i like keeping a friction knot minder in line. Though i set it up so that i have a 'biner attatched to saddle; that connects a strap to another 'biner that connects line/tail to system; in a chain. Most of the fime i keep both 'biners hooked together directly; with strap still folded inbetween, still connection. For extended pulls; i on hook 'biners; extend strap, while anchored by layard; though 'biners never disconnect from from strap, maintaining ; tied in status. 

Though on ascents sometimes i like to have a pilot (pile-it) pulling tail of lifeline, to usher friction hitch up gently with minder; while all my energy is directed above knot into 2/1; rather than part of it being used to overcome friction in knot; to maximize effort to output ratio.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 9, 2002)

Instead of the Mini T. I use a rope man and have used a 'biner on the belly D-ring as a fair lead from ime to time. no redundancye there, I know.


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 5, 2002)

*climbing hitches*

I want to get opinions on the new hitches to hit the workplace.
The SWAYBISH and the DISTEL


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## greenguy (Apr 5, 2002)

I have seen them but not had time to work with them. I can only use taught line or blake hitch. At work one of the guys that I train with uses a distel.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 6, 2002)

i use the distal all the time, i make it in 3strand NE Saf.Blu HyVee and love it. i think it is better than Schwabisch. Some of these guys have eveolved beyond here to Frenchy and like. But the Distal serves me very well and simply.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 6, 2002)

Those are ok. They are really just a tautline with the tail attached to the 'binner, instead of hanging there with a backer knot.

I would encourage you to get a hunk of rope an eigth an inch smaller diameter than your climbing line(ultra tech at Sherrill), learn how to tie a double fisherman's knot and the MT or VT. 
The only trick is to attach everything and test it. If it doesn't grab every time, loosen up one of the double fishermans knots and shorten the length just a little, and test it again. If it doesn't slide up effortlessly, make the rope a little longer.
Test everything low and slow. You will say to yourself, "Why didn't I do this a long time ago?"


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 6, 2002)

Most of the high performance climbing hitches are tied closed rather than open. By using a smaller diameter accessory cord and closing the hithc you'll see some real improvements in the performance over the Blake's hitch.

There are several other hitches for you to investigate. X-Man has a website with a lot of good pictures. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to post a link on this forum. If you want the link, write to me off the forum so that I can send you the link. Maybe X-man will read this and try to post his link.

Be careful when you make the move to a high performance hitch. The cords that you'll use will have a huge effect on how the hithc slides and grabs. The difference between a 10mm and 11mm cord of the same variety will be significant sometimes. the cord needs to be smaller than your climbing rope but its generally not good practice to say that a certain size difference is the factor. Suppleness of the cord is a huge factor. Take the cord and bend a bight. You will probably find a cord with a medium stiffness will perform the best. Tenex is too soft and static line is too stiff. If those two ropes were 1 and 10 on a scale you will probably find that something around 6 will fit your needs.

Tom


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## rbtree (Apr 6, 2002)

Hello David Lee Roth......


You "just a gigolo" big stud, you!

So what DO you use for Schwabisch/distal? I have one of the Sherril tenex cords, it seems ok. Plus I bought enough 3/8 to make 3 more. for $4!! It becomes 1/2 inch or so when spliced. not sure exactly how to do it to get the ends to meet in the middle, I reckon it is easy. Made a 1/2 inch 15 foot balancer, a 5/8 3-9 foot whoopie, and havent made the 3-14 foot 3/4 whoopie yet. Made a loop out of the 32 foot piece and used it for portawrap sling yestiddy, it barely made it around the maple.

What a great day it was, tearing down this huge old hollow maple, plus 3 alder. I shot a bunch of pics, sarted tearing down the alders around Dan Kraus' perch (my cinematographer!!), he set a line for me, I swung over and joined him. Ian was having fun wrecking the maple and posing! When Dan split for a new perch, I hung the camera on a branch and started whackin'. But Ian had disappeared- 26 years olds gotta eat lunch, I reckon. So I lowered the camera out, dropped the top, and rigged a swing line for the nearby alder's long laterals over the stream and second story deck. But a lower branch which was in the way needed whackin', and plates of food had miraculously appeared. (Thank you, Jerry, for having such a great daughter!) Besides, I'd have had to rig self unhooking slings, as the whole motley crew was stuffing faces. So, I made like a tree and left (or is that leave) and showed em how to do it......



.......Yummmm

..the as yet unconverted (to anything else) Vt guy......

Dodg 

by the way, the TD butt shot didn't do anything for me, remember I had that view for my whole rock climbing "career".

Belay on? On belay! Climb on. clim-- Aarrgh.....


FALLING!!!


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## Rob Murphy (Apr 11, 2002)

Sorry!!!
PS we use the swaybish heaps in rigging


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## rbtree (Apr 11, 2002)

Hi rob, that looks like a 5 wrap Vt, tied from a real short piece of Technora? Why so short, to reduce slop? I have figured out how to self advance my Vt, using a variation of mark Adam's adjustable sliding bridge. It is sweet, but adds additional stuff to the setup, but works like a poor man's lock jack, and isnt finicky.


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## Rob Murphy (Apr 12, 2002)

I think its Ultra tech cord.yeh small for less movement.This is what I do to extend,thats why the biner is reversed. It worx OK but still the friction hitch can slip...combine with pantim and the SRT gear is only for REALLY big stuff.


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## rahtreelimbs (Apr 22, 2002)

*schwabisch vs. distal*

The only difference between the schwabisch and the distal is only that the bottom wrap is in the opposite direction. How much difference does this really make? Now I see that the X-MAN has different styles of the distal on his site. If anyone has tried these different variations of the distal let me know if they are better than the basic version.


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## treeclimber165 (Apr 22, 2002)

The new Sherrill's catalogue has a nice illustration on page 18. Never tried either, but I can try them now that I see how to tie them.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 23, 2002)

i prefer the distal (clove family); better than the swabish (prusik family). They are two diffent machines, with diffrent characteristics. Just because the same elements are used in building a house; doesn't make them all the same.


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## rbtree (Apr 23, 2002)

Well, so far, I only have the Sherril spliced tenex for tieing the Schwabisch/distal. And so far, my prognosis is that the knots are Ok, but can slip on occasion, as well as bind up a bit under a heavy load, thus making them far less desirable than my Vt., the undisputed king of friction knots, at least in my book, and all my converted friends.

What other cordage are you guys using? Seems a stiffer material might be more likely to slip?


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## TheTreeSpyder (Apr 23, 2002)

i think that material slippage in the same knot will be directly related to amount of contact (size of footprint on host) and flexability (ability to choke around host tightly).

Guess i'm going to have to retry this VT though!


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## X-man (Apr 23, 2002)

*Advanced Friction Hitch Cord*

Guys!

Try New England T-900 8mm / $1.89 a foot at WestMarine.com. I have found this line works great with all the new advanced friction hitches. New England also has some Vectran cords and Kevlar cords that are bulletproof! I'm getting some samples to see if they are better than the T-900, I'll let you know how they preform!Check out neropes.com for Stats!
Here's a page with a variety of advanced hitches:http://community.webtv.net/acutabovetree/RopesSplicingKnots


Rigging it down,
X-man


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## FBerkel (Apr 28, 2002)

I agree with rb that the vt. is the best of the new knots, though it has a tendancy to lose its "set" when pushed up by the slack tender on a long ascent. Swabisch has never done that (using Sherrill tenex), but tends to tighten up too much. I did'nt like the distal when I tried it.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jul 1, 2002)

*Distal - Swaybish problem ???*

I'm using Sherrill's yellow 12 strand eye-to-eye cord. It seems that after alot of use ( when the cord starts to get really supple and broken in ) the cord bites real good but doesn't release worth a darn. This is after sitting on it for a while. Has anyone else experienced this? Rich.


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## lync (Jul 1, 2002)

I've been using that 12 strand in a swaybish split tail, and thought I was the only one having a problem. When it was new it grabbed tight and released easy (to decend), but its gotten so sticky that I find I have to footlock the falling end,( to take the tension off the hitch) and break it loose. I think its made of a line called TENEX. If it continues I'll switch back to a blake's hitch.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jul 1, 2002)

You could try another knot configuration. Try adding wraps above or below the crossover.

You can go back in the archives and "maybe" find a link to X-man's page. He has generously posted pictures of almost all of the climbing hitches being used. I'd post his URL but I think that if I did, I might be joining my Cheesehead partner at a necktie party 

Rather than going back to a Blake's you could try another accessory cord for your split tail. When I double crotch or don't have my Lock Jack along I use 3/8" New England double braid that I get from West Marine. It's cheap and opens up nicely.

Tom


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## Eric E. (Jul 1, 2002)

I find that the tenex doesn't hold it's inital qualities long with either hitch.


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## rbtree (Jul 2, 2002)

Tom, I take it that is a soft double braid, but stiffer than the spliced tenex, now no longer hollow. Sounds good; think a 7/16 size would also work? I find the Tenex adequate, but a far cry from the Vt. But I use it a lot for a false crotch, or retrievable redirect.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jul 3, 2002)

i don't think anyone agrees with me, but i like the distall in 3strand, favoring NEsaf.Bl. HyVee, i go 1 down 3up, make em' and replace'em when needed; lanyards too. i try to have a newer lanyard/ older tail or reverse for more immediate recognition.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jul 5, 2002)

*Distal - Swaybish Problem*

In case anyone is interested. I tried climbing with a slightly used yellow Tenex 12 strand instead of my very worn 12 strand. It released alot easier than the worn 12 strand. I hope I've figured out my problem. Rich


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## rbtree (Jul 5, 2002)

I got some 3/8 PS Ropes polyester double braid today, and will try that. My wholesale source had no 7/16 available, and will get some 1/2 inch soon. I think the 3/8 will be too small and bite too much, but we shall see. If I find the perfect combination, I might not be such as Vt addict.

I also saw their Vectran, which is even more expensive than Plasma. It was developed by Cortland Cable, which specializes in small lines. (They bought PS Ropes to be able to have the Plasma line). Vectran has almost 0 creep, and was first used for space shuttle tethering, as well as weather balloons and other giant balloons for moving cargo.

Anyone want to buy some 1.75 mm Zing It, I have over 600 feet more than I need, you can have it for 9 cents a foot, plus no more than a couple grand shipping.... or see me in Seattle.


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## Rob Murphy (Jul 6, 2002)

I am using 8mm Sprectra on 13mm yale XTC with a 5 wrap french prussick, its sweet.Bits well and releasses easy.
Anyone else using Spectra?
My trainee will be using 10 mm Spectra.


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## rbtree (Jul 6, 2002)

Rob,

I'm sold on the 5/16th UltraTech for Vt, 6 or 7 wrap. Isnt the spectra softer? It also is not as heat or abrasion resistant as the Ultratech. I think 8 mm is close to 5/16 in size. I assume you are making your prussic shorter than the typical 23 inches (I think it is) for the 6-7 wrap- which is 3 or 4 wraps and three crossovers or weaves. 

I also just got 600 feet of the new Samson Gold Streak, it is purty!! We have some retired Blue Streak for handlines, thus the gold stuff. Dan Kraus will help us splice 'em up!! We have some of the white 16 strand Yale, it is nice, tightly woven, just not as strong as the Samson. It is a bit on the small side too.

Rog

Greenery wil grow about anywhere here in the PNWet, as you can see:


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## Rob Murphy (Jul 6, 2002)

I guess its that I can pick spectra up five minutes away at my local marine supplier. i have used altratech found it too stiff for my liking and, for me, hard to get hold of . My mate uses the 10mm Spectra as he uses a standard length pussick.It looks bulkier so thats why I will give it to my trainee,sometimes looks help when your learning.
Yeh my prussick length is shorter to compensate for the smaller diameter other wise it would bite to hard.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Jul 6, 2002)

Rich,
The rope is not your problem, it's the hitch. The Distal and Swabisch are great knots to know if you are writing a history book of knots, or to impress freinds that you can tie many useless knots, but to actually climb on them, I don't know.


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