# How long to wait on steady work?



## MonkeyMan_812 (Dec 24, 2009)

How long did it take for most of you guys to stay busy all week every week? I mean I get busy spurts but this year sucked in a major way. Just trying to stay encouraged here. I'm to the point where I just think taking a job somewhere would be better off. I hear about these other guy being 2 or 3 months back logged. I'm trying to hang on but the stress and worry is starting to get to me. I think 25 hour with no worries might be better than all the stress of running a biz. Any suggestions.


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## Grace Tree (Dec 24, 2009)

Merry Christmas brother,
Phil


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## lumberjack333 (Dec 24, 2009)

I was busy from March to the end of August this year, soon as the summer was over, work died off for the better part of september. I started getting concerned with my reserves dwindleing away so I jumped on board with another tree service through the fall and into the middle of this month. After September passed, my phone started ringing again so I had steady side jobs usually working sat sun for myself and five days a week for my boss... Now I'm foreman there, and signed on for my apprenticeship starting in January going till March and by then tree season will be firing up again for the new decade . I plan on investing some serious $$$ into my company next year, get myself a 1 ton dumper and a 6" chipper to make the sideies go that much smoother, and having the combined income and stress free lifestyle is much easier on me and my wallet. By the time I'm done my apprenticeship in 2011, if things go according to plan I'll be ready to branch out on my own with a little more equipment, knowledge and a stronger client base than before...

Long story short, do what you need to to survive... just don't lose sight of your personal goals.


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## Tim'sTree (Dec 24, 2009)

Monkeyman asked a question that was also on the tip of my tounge. I'm going into my third year. This past one was much busier than my first, but I wasn't close to five days a week steady. So to the guys with an ongoing backlog of work- how many years did it take?


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## mckeetree (Dec 24, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> I'm to the point where I just think taking a job somewhere would be better off. I think 25 hour with no worries might be better than all the stress of running a biz. Any suggestions.




Unless you have a ton of money invested in the tree business then I think you would be better off with a regular job if you can get one that is any good. I was just talking yesterday with another tree service owner about how this business has changed over the past 30 years. There was a time when a guy that didn't have a lot at stake could make some money in the tree service business but not anymore. Illegal aliens, economic climates like we have never seen before, consumer education and the internet have changed the rules of the game. If I could go back in time 25 years and know what I know now I would have never got in this business. Trimming and removals used to be the cash cow for most all small companies. That has changed without many small guys figuring it out. Trimming and removals are getting exponentially cheaper when you inflation index against 20 years ago and I guarantee it is going to get worse if the train stays on the same track. It cost me a lot of money every month to just keep the doors open. If I had not rolled with the punches and adapted somewhat to what has been coming at us as an industry I would have been out of business a long time ago. I know several guys right here close to home that have struggled along in the tree business for years now. There was a good thread about that sometime back. I guess they just didn't want to work for someone else. Lots of them have beat at the profession going back and forth in it from part time to full time. I know one guy who is 51 years old, has been doing the tree service thing for 25 years and I bet you he doesn't have $10,000 in savings. Twenty five years, less than $10,000 in savings, no insurance and no retirement. That sucks if you really think about it. The bottom line is this....to do any good in this business anymore you have to get a little bigger than most guys want to get, owe more money than what you feel comfortable owing, have A+ credit, apply yourself 110%, put in way more hours than you would like to, accept the fact you have to have and deal with employees, practically be married to the business, spend a lot of time on customer development, offer every service imaginable related to trees and be set up and licensed to do it, never look desperate and look good chewing through a concrete wall if you have to.


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## teamtree (Dec 24, 2009)

I have been in the business for about 10 years and I still don't have enough work to keep 3 guys busy all year round. I left a great corporate job and started doing tree work because I loved the work. I feel like if I can control my expenses this year I will make a turn for the best. But with fuel prices higher, insurance premiums rising, unemployment taxes doubling it is getting harder and harder to make a decent living, if one at all. Now you climbers are a different story....you have a different set of skills than I and you can generate more money from climbing where I hire it out. I am a bucket baby.

I am lucky to have a wife with a great job that pays most of the bills until I get things paid off but we struggle when customers don't pay in a timely fashion. I try to take on as much work as possible but I just don't see the opportunities that I did 5 years ago. New competition from various areas is a big concern. 

I know how much you love tree work, but to reinvent the wheel is getting harder and harder. The bigger players are getting really efficient and can do more while you are struggling to buy a chipper or loader to get you in the same ballgame. 

I am trying to diversify my business and I see an opportunity to sell and plant trees. Nice margin, little equipment, no saws or climbing necessary. I am also looking at new ways to get my business name out there. 

Think about our industry compared to others....we get much less money than landscapers, excavators, building contractors and our industry requires expensive equipment and more risk. For example, I know guys who get $900 for there excavator and labor (1 guy, 150k piece of equipment plus hauling eq) vs. 3 guys 300k in equipment that gets 1500k per day.

I am going to hang around for a couple more years and see what happens, then I may go back to accounting or sales.

Have a Merry Christmas!!!!


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## Rftreeman (Dec 24, 2009)

times are rough......


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Unless you have a ton of money invested in the tree business then I think you would be better off with a regular job if you can get one that is any good. I was just talking yesterday with another tree service owner about how this business has changed over the past 30 years. There was a time when a guy that didn't have a lot at stake could make some money in the tree service business but not anymore. Illegal aliens, economic climates like we have never seen before, consumer education and the internet have changed the rules of the game. If I could go back in time 25 years and know what I know now I would have never got in this business. Trimming and removals used to be the cash cow for most all small companies. That has changed without many small guys figuring it out. Trimming and removals are getting exponentially cheaper when you inflation index against 20 years ago and I guarantee it is going to get worse if the train stays on the same track. It cost me a lot of money every month to just keep the doors open. If I had not rolled with the punches and adapted somewhat to what has been coming at us as an industry I would have been out of business a long time ago. I know several guys right here close to home that have struggled along in the tree business for years now. There was a good thread about that sometime back. I guess they just didn't want to work for someone else. Lots of them have beat at the profession going back and forth in it from part time to full time. I know one guy who is 51 years old, has been doing the tree service thing for 25 years and I bet you he doesn't have $10,000 in savings. Twenty five years, less than $10,000 in savings, no insurance and no retirement. That sucks if you really think about it. The bottom line is this....to do any good in this business anymore you have to get a little bigger than most guys want to get, owe more money than what you feel comfortable owing, have A+ credit, apply yourself 110%, put in way more hours than you would like to, accept the fact you have to have and deal with employees, practically be married to the business, spend a lot of time on customer development, offer every service imaginable related to trees and be set up and licensed to do it, never look desperate and look good chewing through a concrete wall if you have to.



Alot of wisdom went into that post. 

Thats about what I'm seeing the farther along I get.


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## Uncle John (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm afraid the economy will get worse before it gets better.


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## ArborSmithNw (Dec 24, 2009)

I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...

Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.

Sitting home waiting for your phone to ring can really bring down your moral. At least if you're out talking to people you are not focused on not having work.

Again, it's just my opinion that I know others are completely opposed to. But I also know I am sitting on a 3 week back log of 40 hour weeks & have only been running this outfit for a year.

Merry Christmas & good luck through the rough patch.


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## tree MDS (Dec 24, 2009)

I've been at this thirteen years, and its still hard to stay busy all the time like that. But then being young and stupid along the way I only went after the type of work I really wanted to do (takedowns), rather than work at developing a more diverse clientel. I'm hoping its not too late though as I dont want to end up like mckeetree's example.

Alot of fighters in this biz and you are (unless your daddy got deep pockets or you deal drugs) more than likely going to have to be one of them in order to make it. I'm not so sure taking a job working for someone else is really fighting, and thats not really fair to your potential employer either - because if and when the economy finally shifts, your more than likely gonna just run back out on your own. but then the tree biz is full of people using other people and vice versa anyways...so I guess thats just business as usual.

Ah whatever, I got some some drinking to do...later 

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas all!


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## mckeetree (Dec 24, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...
> 
> Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.
> 
> ...




Part of what I was talking about is how customers perceive you. You are cementing the fact that you are perceived as a "door knocker." Around here that is not too good a tag to have hung around your neck. No matter what you do or think you kinda have that vacuum cleaner salesman stigma attached to you. I think if you are going door to door and doing any good with that you are either cheap as an illegal alien or worse yet cheaper than one. A man watching me type this just commented "All he is really doing is just aggravating the community and making real tree care companies look bad as a profession." I have to agree with that. Plus I think you are about 99% hogwash based on what you have posted since you joined and that is my opinion.


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## treesquirrel (Dec 24, 2009)

This has been a roller coaster year for me. And currently the roller coaster is down in a low valley.

Hang in there. I do anything I can drum up. Currently I am lined up to do some odd bobcat jobs and I even have some concrete work to do. Diversify when it is slow. Three weeks ago I was fairly busy, today its dead as far as tree work goes. I have one job and I am waiting for the ground to dry up.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Dec 24, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I'm not so sure taking a job working for someone else is really fighting, and thats not really fair to your potential employer either - because if and when the economy finally shifts, your more than likely gonna just run back out on your own. but then the tree biz is full of people using other people and vice versa anyways...so I guess thats just business as usual.



Actually I would not run back to being on my own. The shortage of work is just the staw that broke the camels back as far as a reason to get out of the business for myself goes. Im thinking that a clock-in clock-out situation would be better than having to deal with all the headache. If I'm not making good money doing it (working for myself) than I'll just go climb for another company. But I would agree with you about people using others to get started on thier own. Ive seenit and heard about it at least a half a dozen times.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 24, 2009)

McKeetree said it. We have work booked year around. 10 year old company and every year has been better than the last. We don't do residential and we don't advertise, we market, and with 12 guys do 1.5 million (this year), but it does take money to make money. I think the owner spent about 100,000 this year in marketing which cost more than advertising. I think the biggest hits to companies is homeowners cutting back and lots of competition. My competition is big companies. 
Jeff


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 24, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> But I would agree with you about people using others to get started on thier own. Ive seenit and heard about it at least a half a dozen times.



Absoutely!! Happens a lot.

It is a tough business to get into, and tough to hang in there.

I was somewhat fortunate, as I started with well over $100K in cash in back pocket to drop into this business, that allowed me to pick and choose a wide variety of equipment (although I had to pick up used equipment at that). On top of that I had enough spare cash to allow me to ride two years without making a dime for myself - as long as I didn't loose too much in the business.

Even at that it slows down in winter somewhat. And I have since opened up a lawn care side to business as well, which allows a lot of flexibility. (My heart is still with the tree side, but I love the ability to move guys around if necessary). I started the mowing side initially for my youngest son to give him a summer job (as I didn't have enough tree work at the time for somebody without experience). Now it is a good side business as it has pretty steady work from late spring into late fall. 

I would love to simply take the winter months off myself, but some of the guys working for me can not handle the gap, so gotta keep going.

Regardless, back to original post. It really depends upon where you are and what you are doing. Right now I have all the work than I can handle (summer students are gone and back to regular staff). Just picked up nineteen jobs in the past week and half, most are fairly small jobs and most are removals, but pays the bills. Took me maybe five years to get to the point where I had the ability to say it carried me through the year, and by that time I had summer students and two full time workers (one a climber) with me.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 24, 2009)

If I didn't own rental properties, free and clear, near the university, here, I could not afford to stay in the tree biz. As others have said, the economy is bad and I expect it to get worse, despite what the talking heads on TV blab about our "economic recovery." Also, McKee hit the nail on the head in his posts in this thread. We are dealing with many folks who will work for far less than we can. It comes down to a matter of either pricing like them and lowering your complete standard of living, or trying to do things right at the risk of not working at all. I am working on a "take it day to day" basis, right now, and I will decide in the next six months if I'm staying with the trees. If I decide to get out, it will be a fast and clean break, as I have done in my other professions of music (20 years) and tattooing (15 years). To hang in and die by degrees is far more painful, as I see it, than throwing yourself completely into a new profession and/or line of work. Thing is, I really enjoy tree work, and I'll hate to see it go, if I give it up.


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## John464 (Dec 24, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> McKeetree said it. We have work booked year around. 10 year old company and every year has been better than the last. We don't do residential and we don't advertise, we market, and with 12 guys do 1.5 million (this year), but it does take money to make money. I think the owner spent about 100,000 this year in marketing which cost more than advertising.
> Jeff



not sure what you mean but MARKETING is ADVERTISING. I spend about 50k a year in just marketing/advertising and its the single most important beginning step in running any business, not just tree care. SELL SELL SELL. how do you get sales? you put your company in their face. then you need the staff to handle the calls.

I however never would of started a tree care co in the past 5 years and would of been real reluctant in the past 10, because as mcktree said the big guys will swallow you whole. It takes over a mil in equipment thats been well paid for to make big profits nowdays, atleast in my area. Ya'll starting in the last 5yrs need some serious capital to compete with the big dogs. They are the only ones making real money because they can do it faster. Check out oldirty's posts. His boss I know is making great money cause he is ahead of his competition, not just another tree co, but better than them. To be the most profitable you have to be faster at generating leads and faster than your comp at doing the work. Add up what your biggest expense is, and that is time, which is paid by you for your laborers. 

Most every other contractor is getting a better return on investment, electricians, plumbers, carpenters all see a higher profit margin per man after expenses. You either gotta really love this profession nowdays to begin a tree care co to settle with a less than 6 figure salary. do all the headaches make it worth it? running a tree care company involves putting up with a ton of aggrevation. love it or or go elsewhere for better money. Or lay your nuts on the table(risk) and think big. Find the biggest company in your area and analyze how you can beat them at the tree game, but be prepare to spend over a mil that would be much better invested in many other businesses


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 24, 2009)

John464 said:


> but be prepare to spend over a mil that would be much better invested in many other businesses



Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on.. 

I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.

But it is fun


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## John464 (Dec 24, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on..
> 
> I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.
> 
> But it is fun



i just added up your capital expenditures. you are right around $340k. 340k can buy a nice car wash that brings in over 200k a year and all you have is maintenance on the machines and refill soap. after your initial investment and then paying operating costs you would still be making more than 6 figures. you could watch via laptop while your cashier puts the cash into the register. people pulling up in line with cash in hand. no having to wait to they put their snarling dog away. no showing up less than 24hrs later to give an estimate and the job is already done. less hassle, less headaches. better return on investment. so many opportunities out there easier and less stressful than running a tree care company. the sad thing is I am plagued with having sap in my veins. I like this #### too much.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 24, 2009)

And last year the price of fuel! Dump fees and now the EPA.
Jeff


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## treesquirrel (Dec 24, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Definately have to spend a lot, no question about it. Even if you buy used. By the time you have trucks, trailers, dump boxes, chip boxes, chippers, bucket trucks, stump grinders - if you do that, saws, rope and rigging gear.. and that is only the beginning.. Then comes insurance, taxes, employees, accountant fees, buildings, on and on..
> 
> I dumped well over $100K a quite a few years ago in the first 12 months, then another $60K in the next year or so.. and think it has been at least $30K every year since. (that is just equipment in the field) This year think it was around $50 or 60K.. and I have already purchased another $30K which I will pick up in January of 2010. So the pain never really stops.



And customers think you should show up with ALL that stuff and cut down their 30 inch oak for 200 bucks.


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## southernoutdoor (Dec 24, 2009)

Well how about keeping it small, two man crew and just take on enough to keep ya busy? Dont try to compete with the big guys just do quality work at a reasonable price. Seems like that could be successful?????? I'm new so I may not have a clue, just seems like a good approach


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 24, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> I know this is a major point of contention for some fellas here, so I will go ahead and just preface with "this is just my opinion"...
> 
> Direct selling. (aka door knocking) For any call you receive & get invited to bid on, force yourself to not go home until you make contact with 10 or so homeowners that live in the area that look like they could use some pruning, even if its just a hedge.
> 
> ...



this here is the best post i read on this thread! he is right! study shows that direct marketing is the most effective way of getting jobs. one day a week i have my guys hand out flyers and i get a lot of work that way. you have to get people thinking. not everyone pays attention to their trees, they have more important things to do. hand them a tree service flyer and watch their necks break as they look up at all their trees. point the limbs out that are dead, warn them of potential hazards. if you really want to work you will, the work is there you just have to go get it because its not going to come to you. why should they call you over the next guy? DON'T GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO CALL THE NEXT GUY!!!


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## ArborSmithNw (Dec 24, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> this here is the best post i read on this thread! he is right! study shows that direct marketing is the most effective way of getting jobs. one day a week i have my guys hand out flyers and i get a lot of work that way. you have to get people thinking. not everyone pays attention to their trees, they have more important things to do. hand them a tree service flyer and watch their necks break as they look up at all their trees. point the limbs out that are dead, warn them of potential hazards. if you really want to work you will, the work is there you just have to go get it because its not going to come to you. why should they call you over the next guy? DON'T GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO CALL THE NEXT GUY!!!




Stewart NAILED IT.
Backlogs don't lie. 
Size 10's kicked up on the desk worrying gets nothing accomplished.


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## mckeetree (Dec 24, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> this here is the best post i read on this thread!



Well that is sad. You may consider getting some counseling.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

Don't believe the hype in this thread about the mega-buck expenditures these guys supposedly make as far as it relates to the actual income they net after all of their bills are paid. Sure, you can go out and take on a bunch of debt and try to compete with the big guys in your city, sure. But you had better have a great legal department to handle the red tape you'll encounter going after municipal gigs, and you better employ, for big bucks, a former city/state/county big wig who can get you into the sweetheart contracts your competitors have sewn up, way ahead of you. There are big talkers in here who tell you about their huge investments in their businesses and their six figure salaries. What they don't tell you about is their bankruptcies and how they live on negative cash flow for the sake of appearances. Unless you are already independently wealthy and can actually take on the big names in this business, keep it fairly small and you will be OK if the economy actually does turn around. In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. I don't live large and I only owe taxes at year's end. When other tree companies, other than the big two, are working in town, I work. Right now things are pretty terrible, and if the economy doesn't turn around, they may stay that way. I do really enjoy tree work and I do a great job, but the realities of the opportunities to do it, or lack thereof, will ultimately dictate whether or not I'm still in the tree game six months from now. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard, business would be just as dead as it is now, but I would be over my head in debt. Think long and hard about that before you rush out to your bank to take on that new $100K loan.

FWIW, go ahead and knock on doors, hang flyers, place ads in the paper, yellow pages, etc. If the work is not there, it's not there. The guy who talked about marketing, as opposed to advertising, is simply practicing obfuscation, as advertising is, obviously, intimately associated with marketing. Again, in the end, you can market your company until you're blue in the face and your cash is gone. As I said, if the work is not there, it's not there.


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## danieltree (Dec 25, 2009)

I ask myself this every year during the winter, and I always decide to stick it out. I sometimes have a hard time considering myself a company.I carry all the insurance (which next to labor is my biggest expense)have my own equipment , isa cert. and am licensed for my state. I only manage to get a little work though and 90 percent of my own work is referral. Every year it gets a little better. I climb for other companies to keep myself busy and also keep my ground man busy, if I did not do this I would not be able to make it. I also sub the jobs that are small but still need a skilled person to do , you know the jobs that cost as much in labor as the job was sold for(I do the job for half the money and still make money) I tried to work a large crew and realized that all I was doing was wasting good paying jobs on labor. So I guess what I am getting at is that the only way that I manage to make it is to stay small and keep my expenses down. I also seem to handle the winter slow down better If I come up with a project to do around the house to focus on. Oh yeah save up enough cash to make it through the winter if you can that helps a lot .​


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## Saw Dust Smoken (Dec 25, 2009)

*work or time off*

Daniel is right! Keep back enough money to not have to work in slow times. If I dont turn a wheel for 2-3months in the winter? No problem! Big company cant do this with debt and employee headaches!!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Don't believe the hype in this thread about the mega-buck expenditures these guys supposedly make as far as it relates to the actual income they net after all of their bills are paid. Sure, you can go out and take on a bunch of debt and try to compete with the big guys in your city, sure. .



I did not have what I consider mega-buck expenditures myself. However I did drop a few dollars, as stated however I was fortunate in that I had enough cash from a previous job where the initial amount I dropped was in my back pocket with enough additional to live for 2 years without taking anything back. This then allowed me to push the full returns back into the company (other than some money I gave my two sons who worked with me the first two years).

Even after all of that, we still do not go after the big municipal jobs. Almost all my work is around the lake (Georgian Bay), and residential. I have thought about pushing into the bigger jobs, but so far have not done so. I just purcased a new skid-steer (bobcat), stump grinder (Vermeer), a mower for the lawn side (eXmark Navigator) and a 5 ton dump trailer.

It does cost money.. do I need to do it.. likely not, but I am having fun and have enough spare cash in company to do so.

Do I want the big jobs, no.. I had 9 employees in summer (half of them summer students), I am trying to add a couple more in 2010, but that will be it.

But even at that it took five years to get to where I wanted to be for work, and that was with enough cash up front to buy enough (used) equipment to get started.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

southernoutdoor said:


> Well how about keeping it small, two man crew and just take on enough to keep ya busy? Dont try to compete with the big guys just do quality work at a reasonable price. Seems like that could be successful?????? I'm new so I may not have a clue, just seems like a good approach



It is the best approach. I only grew a bit bigger initially as I took on mowing of lawns as well, for my son initially - gave him summer employment while at school.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> not sure what you mean but MARKETING is ADVERTISING. I spend about 50k a year in just marketing/advertising and its the single most important beginning step in running any business, not just tree care. SELL SELL SELL. how do you get sales? you put your company in their face. then you need the staff to handle the calls.



Good advise. And if I had known what I know now when I started, I may have been able to get up to speed faster. I didn't spend $50K in marketing.. the first year I don't think I spent more than maybe $5K, and the 2nd year no better.

Even now I don't spend $50K -- but you do need to spend on marketing to get new customers. I have a lot of post-cards going out, and a lot of flyers. Some of it is a bit duplicated however, as some is focused on lawn work and some on tree work. Most of the lawn marketing now has some tree side added in, as there are a lot more potential long term lawn customers. (and we try to grab them for any tree work)

Maybe I should spend more.. I just had a set of flyers go to print. The big cost here though is the postage.


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## RVALUE (Dec 25, 2009)

Don't overlook the fact that in a dynamic environment, (constantly changing), tree work is viewed as more of a luxury as the economy falls. This in turn passes the cost on to the very insurance companies that harass you into a category that elevates the problem (of being viewed as a luxury.)

((Provided you pass on the overhead costs to the customer))

This is an unfortuneate situation to overcome. One more obstacle.

The result of this can be seen now as "seasoned" players in the business are now out or nearly out of work.

BUT the good news is, there is a *challenge* to get that tree on the ground faster than you think you can.


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## RVALUE (Dec 25, 2009)

Some suscribe to the concept that if you glean a bit of good information from a thread, it is worthy of REP.




:greenchainsaw:


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## RVALUE (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Good advise. And if I had known what I know now when I started, I may have been able to get up to speed faster. I didn't spend $50K in marketing.. the first year I don't think I spent more than maybe $5K, and the 2nd year no better.
> 
> Even now I don't spend $50K -- but you do need to spend on marketing to get new customers. I have a lot of post-cards going out, and a lot of flyers. Some of it is a bit duplicated however, as some is focused on lawn work and some on tree work. Most of the lawn marketing now has some tree side added in, as there are a lot more potential long term lawn customers. (and we try to grab them for any tree work)
> 
> Maybe I should spend more.. I just had a set of flyers go to print. The big cost here though is the postage.







The mysterious "effective Marketing"


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

danieltree said:


> (snip) I also seem to handle the winter slow down better If I come up with a project to do around the house to focus on. Oh yeah save up enough cash to make it through the winter if you can that helps a lot .​



Excellent point about the project around the house. This current slow-down has threatened to drive me into a real depression, but I have forced myself to keep busy around my house, and that seems to keep the blues away. I also have been updating my client mailing list using a new program, and just doing the data entry and seeing how many folks I've worked for over the years gives me hope that with the new features on this new program I will soon be stacking up the work for the new year.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard...........
> 
> 
> > That's great, but you have to realize that will not work for most people in this business. Don't get folks to dreaming they can get anywhere in this business without any equipment. It worked for you but I would call that an isolated case. Real isolated. There is one guy on here now that is already getting that "what if you just get out there with nothing and do good work deal going." Well, maybe, but usually that works out to be a long drawn out fiasco. I am not saying debt is a good thing from every possible angle and I have seen slow times before but without my bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders, and spray rig it would have been a real sad last 23 years.


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## RVALUE (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Sunrise Guy said:
> 
> 
> > In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard...........
> ...


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> That's great, but you have to realize that will not work for most people in this business. Don't get folks to dreaming they can get anywhere in this business without any equipment. It worked for you but I would call that an isolated case. Real isolated. There is one guy on here now that is already getting that "what if you just get out there with nothing and do good work deal going." Well, maybe, but usually that works out to be a long drawn out fiasco. I am not saying debt is a good thing from every possible angle and I have seen slow times before but without my bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders, and spray rig it would have been a real sad last 23 years.



Good advise. And frankly if I knew a few years ago what I know now, I would do a lot differently. Yes I had cash up front.. but even at that I made a whole lot of mistakes, and a lot of equipment sat idle for a lot of hours initially. Thank God it was paid for.

Best advise.. start small, with what you can afford. Focus on what you know and grow from there.

I am not trying to suggest that you need to fill a yard full of equipment or a shed full of saws.. and if you do make sure it is paid for.

I do suggest you start with what you know, knock on doors, use your contacts and friends to start a network, and go from there. Oh.. if you are buying anything at all, buy used if you can - make sure in good shape but used. I still buy most stuff used today - there is a lot of good used equipment out there.


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Well that is sad. You may consider getting some counseling.



get counseling mckeetree? ok yeah lets sit and listen to everyone bash the idea of doing tree work for yourself. all i heard up until this point is stories about giving up and taking a better job. you have to spend money to make money and invest a little time. if you fail whos fault is that? the tree company down the street? NO IT IS YOU FAULT!!!!! I think you need to get counseling. help this guy through his slump instead of trying to persuade him and scare him into giving up! get with the program man. sure there will be stories of failure but for every story of failure there is a story of success. here is a formula for you to think about ok HARD WORK= SUCCESS. Encourage this man, give him hope and don't come at me like that because I am trying to help this guy out! im sure you had someone helping you out or picking you up when you were down. i dont even have anything else to say to you man, merry christmas.


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## IcePick (Dec 25, 2009)

*sheesh*

Sounds like a lot of whining going on here. I work full time (year round) for an accredited company that did over a million in sales (still didn't pull much net worth in this year with all the expenditures and equipment purchased) and I do side work(all word of mouth, family, friends) when I can. However, I've sold a few thousand dollars of work for our company as well.

I aint rich but live comfortably and without a whole lot of stress (cept for this snow plowing [email protected]!).

I find out if one knows a lot of people, network well and doesn't have the personality of a slug, one can do alright for themselves no matter what it is they're trying to do. 

In my case, I'm putting forth 110% to the company I'm working for, and doing a little something for extra for me and my family on the side. I have a pickup, trailer, saws and climbing gear and don't use any of my company's equipment when doing my own small jobs.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> get counseling mckeetree?
> 
> im sure you had someone helping you out or picking you up when you were down.



Yeah, counseling. You may need some. Especially some business counseling. As far as anybody ever helping me out or picking me up when I was down, what a laugh. You must be like those Aboriginals in Australia that go into that dream world sometimes.


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Yeah, counseling. You may need some. Especially some business counseling. As far as anybody ever helping me out or picking me up when I was down, what a laugh. You must be like those Aboriginals in Australia that go into that dream world sometimes.



o yeah im dreaming, i was adopted by an 80 yr. old couple, grew up poor, started everything i have now by myself with no one! i help people out as much as i can because i had no one to help me out. i dont need business counseling either, i talk to my customer, do the job to the best of my ability, and don't leave until my customer is satified. thats all there is to it. where does the counseling come in? this isnt even my thread and im not stealing it by fighting with you. Good luck OP i hope things get better for you. DONT GIVE UP!


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> o yeah im dreaming, i was adopted by an 80 yr. old couple, grew up poor, started everything i have now by myself with no one! i help people out as much as i can because i had no one to help me out. i dont need business counseling either, i talk to my customer, do the job to the best of my ability, and don't leave until my customer is satified. thats all there is to it. where does the counseling come in? this isnt even my thread and im not stealing it by fighting with you. Good luck OP i hope things get better for you. DONT GIVE UP!



You are the one who was singing the praises of door knocking earlier. You were encouraging people to go door to door like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses. You said that hogwash arborsmith posted about door knocking was the best post in this thread. That is why I decided you needed business counseling. By your standards we all need to put on those sandwich signs and stand around near the intersections. Or better yet an old piece of cardboard with "will do tree work for food." Man, that kind of crap is what is wrong with public perception of this industry today. You don't see electricians, plumbers, mechanics or other professional trades going door to door to beg for work but you do see tree service "professionals" doing it.


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> You are the one who was singing the praises of door knocking earlier. You were encouraging people to go door to door like a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses. You said that hogwash arborsmith posted about door knocking was the best post in this thread. That is why I decided you needed business counseling. By your standards we all need to put on those sandwich signs and stand around near the intersections. Or better yet an old piece of cardboard with "will do tree work for food." Man, that kind of crap is what is wrong with public perception of this industry today. You don't see electricians, plumbers, mechanics or other professional trades going door to door to beg for work but you do see tree service "professionals" doing it.



door to door, no! I would never disturb people that way, DIRECT MARKETING, meaning directly mailing flyers, postcards, anything to say hey "I am your local tree service and I want you to know who I am and what I can do to improve your landscape and safety." this thread is about someone contemplating about giving up what he loves to do. We as fellow climbers and arborists cant encourage him to do it. We need to encourage the people that have no idea what they are doing and are putting real arborists out of work to quit.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 25, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> We need to encourage the people that have no idea what they are doing and are putting real arborists out of work to quit.



Good luck. Those are also the ones typically with lowest cost.
No education or training costs.
No certification or membership costs.
No insurance.
No WC, Taxes, etc..

Equals low cost work.. with which we can not compete.

But try to not get discouraged. Do what you can with what you have. Try to stay out of debt. Ensure you have all the proper licenses, insurance, etc. Do some good networking, marketing, etc..
Do an honest days work, and charge accordingly. Work will come.. at least it did for me. Having said that, we are in a crappy economy to be starting up.. but don't dispair there is still work out there for all of us.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> this here is the best post i read on this thread! one day a week i have my guys hand out flyers and i get a lot of work that way. hand them a tree service flyer



??????????????????????????????


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## tree MDS (Dec 25, 2009)

I hear you on the long drawn out fiasco part mckeetree. I beat myself up a good solid eight years with just a one ton and a 200+. I know that deal well. After a while it dawns on you that you could just get old and fade away at that gig. So I bought the tractor, picked up a trailer, then in a couple more years picked up the infamous bucket. Last year was a good year so I got the bigger newer chipper. All of that sucks to pay for, but I feel I was ready for each purchase...well as ready as I was ever gonna be anyway. But I guess my point is at some point you really do need to jump in and take some risk if you want to get anywhere (again, unless dad's rich or you deal drugs). Of course the repo mans been flying around town lately so knock on wood! lol.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

StewartTreeCare said:


> door to door, no! I would never disturb people that way.



????????????????????????????????


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I hear you on the long drawn out fiasco part mckeetree. I beat myself up a good solid eight years with just a one ton and a 200+. I know that deal well. After a while it dawns on you that you could just get old and fade away at that gig. So I bought the tractor, picked up a trailer, then in a couple more years picked up the infamous bucket. Last year was a good year so I got the bigger newer chipper. All of that sucks to pay for, but I feel I was ready for each purchase...well as ready as I was ever gonna be anyway. But I guess my point is at some point you really do need to jump in and take some risk if you want to get anywhere (again, unless dad's rich or you deal drugs). Of course the repo mans been flying around town lately so knock on wood! lol.



Good post.


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## tree MDS (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Good post.



Thanks. I didnt mean to get in the middle of the kill for ya there.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Sunrise Guy said:
> 
> 
> > In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard...........
> ...


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> ??????????????????????????????



????????????? do you ####in see door to door anywhere in there?


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Don't believe the hype in this thread about the mega-buck expenditures these guys supposedly make as far as it relates to the actual income they net after all of their bills are paid. Sure, you can go out and take on a bunch of debt and try to compete with the big guys in your city, sure. But you had better have a great legal department to handle the red tape you'll encounter going after municipal gigs, and you better employ, for big bucks, a former city/state/county big wig who can get you into the sweetheart contracts your competitors have sewn up, way ahead of you. There are big talkers in here who tell you about their huge investments in their businesses and their six figure salaries. What they don't tell you about is their bankruptcies and how they live on negative cash flow for the sake of appearances. Unless you are already independently wealthy and can actually take on the big names in this business, keep it fairly small and you will be OK if the economy actually does turn around. In my business life, I most often did not buy what I couldn't pay for, outright, and I amassed a net worth that others, with their huge debt load, can only dream of. I don't live large and I only owe taxes at year's end. When other tree companies, other than the big two, are working in town, I work. Right now things are pretty terrible, and if the economy doesn't turn around, they may stay that way. I do really enjoy tree work and I do a great job, but the realities of the opportunities to do it, or lack thereof, will ultimately dictate whether or not I'm still in the tree game six months from now. If I had bucket trucks, chippers, stump grinders and spray rigs sitting in my yard, business would be just as dead as it is now, but I would be over my head in debt. Think long and hard about that before you rush out to your bank to take on that new $100K loan.
> 
> FWIW, go ahead and knock on doors, hang flyers, place ads in the paper, yellow pages, etc. If the work is not there, it's not there. The guy who talked about marketing, as opposed to advertising, is simply practicing obfuscation, as advertising is, obviously, intimately associated with marketing. Again, in the end, you can market your company until you're blue in the face and your cash is gone. As I said, if the work is not there, it's not there.



So you assume that bankrupties and negative cash flow are the norm? Wrong, the work is there and that is the difference between advertising and marketing. There is plenty of work and plenty of optimism except with you. Dont paint with such a broad brush- 
Jeff


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> So you assume that bankrupties and negative cash flow are the norm? Wrong, the work is there and that is the difference between advertising and marketing. There is plenty of work and plenty of optimism except with you. Dont paint with such a broad brush-
> Jeff



Ah, so you know things I don't. Good for you. Never mind that two of my best friends, both bankruptcy attorneys, tell me that their businesses are booming. You know better than they do. I suppose you have your finger on the pulse of our economy to a more thorough extent than I, as well. Again, good for you. I see the business climate of this country going deeper down the tube, and I see my old stock portfolio, which I ditched right before the crash, failing to get back up to the ditch-point, over the last eight months, or so. Please feel free to visit me in Austin. I'll put you up, no lie. You can then take me around my town, which you apparently know more about than I, and show me where all of the work is. PM me and we'll make arrangements. I look forward to having you stop by.

I also am looking forward to you teaching me the finer points of marketing vs. advertising. Apparently I was under the mistaken notion that advertising is an integral component of marketing.


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## John464 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunrise,

we hear you on that staying small and not biting off more than you can chew. you can chew it if you are hungry and smart enough. that is fine if you are satified at just getting by and paying your bills. running a tree care company is a very tough business to operate. much easier things can be done and all the time, investment, and effort could be placed into a different field that would net you a six figure income by staying small. Not in tree care, staying small with the competition a tree care company faces today will not earn you that. There is too much difference in the way a small tree care company runs their operation vs a large one, but your biggest competition is the largest tree care company in your area. the one that gets the highest percentage of the avail jobs. like it or not they are your competition and it is up to you to put together an army of warriors to go into battle against them. by staying small you are bringing a knife to a sword fight. 

if you are happy with just saving a little stay small, the only way to even have a shot at making a killing like we did 20yrs ago is to have the big equipment, big marketing budget and a team that can recieve and complete work at a rate that is far beyond what your competition can keep up with. VOLUME. 

you say you have a girlfriend. do you have any kids? but arent making enough to support yourself without other investments right? point is there are those that have a big family, have more than one house, have some big toys in the garage and at the dock and did not get that lifestyle buy not taking some very high but calculated risk and became that top tree care company. I know not everyone wants the life of luxury, but why put up with such a hard business to run and a hard task to follow if you are not able to make a GREAT living. This is why tree care is going down the tubes, too many of you guys undervalue the risk you take being in this business. Just being comfortable is for the guy who just bangs a hammer into a board, or just plants some bushes or puts some wire nuts on a light. Dont you think we as operators have a lot more to worry about than a guy who has no machines to worry about daily and no threat of major damage to a customers home or employees who could die instantly with one false move? You as an operator are happy at taking a small piece of the pie for all that you place on the line? WHY?


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## StewartTreeCare (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> Sunrise,
> 
> we hear you on that staying small and not biting off more than you can chew. you can chew it if you are hungry and smart enough. that is fine if you are satified at just getting by and paying your bills. running a tree care company is a very tough business to operate. much easier things can be done and all the time, investment, and effort could be placed into a different field that would net you a six figure income by staying small. Not in tree care, staying small with the competition a tree care company faces today will not earn you that. There is too much difference in the way a small tree care company runs their operation vs a large one, but your biggest competition is the largest tree care company in your area. the one that gets the highest percentage of the avail jobs. like it or not they are your competition and it is up to you to put together an army of warriors to go into battle against them. by staying small you are bringing a knife to a sword fight.
> 
> ...



i agree. i want to get as big as i possibly can. my goal wehn i started my business was to buy one piece of machinery a year. in my first year i pushed that and bought my truck, dump trailer, chipper, and all new climbing gear and rigging gear. in the spring my goal is to buy a split dump and a stump grinder by the end of summer. this was my first year in business and im stuck right now, no work but i can appreciate that because i cn spend time with my two children and my fiance'. when spring comes around i wish push the limit, go all out. i wanna be the biggest in my area.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> Sunrise,
> 
> we hear you on that staying small and not biting off more than you can chew. you can chew it if you are hungry and smart enough. that is fine if you are satified at just getting by and paying your bills. running a tree care company is a very tough business to operate. much easier things can be done and all the time, investment, and effort could be placed into a different field that would net you a six figure income by staying small. Not in tree care, staying small with the competition a tree care company faces today will not earn you that. There is too much difference in the way a small tree care company runs their operation vs a large one, but your biggest competition is the largest tree care company in your area. the one that gets the highest percentage of the avail jobs. like it or not they are your competition and it is up to you to put together an army of warriors to go into battle against them. by staying small you are bringing a knife to a sword fight.
> 
> ...



I don't know sunrise's situation so I won't speak for him but for me, personally, I could give a rat's ass about the big family's, big toy's, big houses, big boats and what not. I don't care. I only strive to be comfortable and earn a decent living. Why trees then? Why my own business then? Why the risk? Because I LOVE it. Every ####in' inch of it. There are parts of the job that aren't great ( poison ivy ), parts of doing business that suck ( paperwork ) , and parts of the risk that aren't a lot of fun ( when #### goes bad ), but when it comes down to it, I'll take the good with the bad because...basically...I'm DONE without it. Swing a hammer? lol, if I don't have my life on the line when slingin' tops and my nuts in a vice to meet a deadline giving me the motivation to push through and come out better for it...well, at the end of the day my beer won't taste as good. Tree work gives my life spice. Running my own business gives me freedom. Risk gives me a boner. It ain't all about the profit.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't know sunrise's situation so I won't speak for him but for me, personally, I could give a rat's ass about the big family's, big toy's, big houses, big boats and what not. I don't care. I only strive to be comfortable and earn a decent living. Why trees then? Why my own business then? Why the risk? Because I LOVE it. Every ####in' inch of it. There are parts of the job that aren't great ( poison ivy ), parts of doing business that suck ( paperwork ) , and parts of the risk that aren't a lot of fun ( when #### goes bad ), but when it comes down to it, I'll take the good with the bad because...basically...I'm DONE without it. Swing a hammer? lol, if I don't have my life on the line when slingin' tops and my nuts in a vice to meet a deadline giving me the motivation to push through and come out better for it...well, at the end of the day my beer won't taste as good. Tree work gives my life spice. Running my own business gives me freedom. Risk gives me a boner. It ain't all about the profit.




That has got to be about the most disturbing thing I have read here this month.


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## ozzy42 (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't know sunrise's situation so I won't speak for him but for me, personally, I could give a rat's ass about the big family's, big toy's, big houses, big boats and what not. I don't care. I only strive to be comfortable and earn a decent living. Why trees then? Why my own business then? Why the risk? Because I LOVE it. Every ####in' inch of it. There are parts of the job that aren't great ( poison ivy ), parts of doing business that suck ( paperwork ) , and parts of the risk that aren't a lot of fun ( when #### goes bad ), but when it comes down to it, I'll take the good with the bad because...basically...I'm DONE without it. Swing a hammer? lol, if I don't have my life on the line when slingin' tops and my nuts in a vice to meet a deadline giving me the motivation to push through and come out better for it...well, at the end of the day my beer won't taste as good. Tree work gives my life spice. Running my own business gives me freedom. Risk gives me a boner. It ain't all about the profit.



I don't find it disturbing at all.

Business is rough for me right now also ,but it's do this or go back to driving a truck OTR.

Iv'e seen enough of the country side.
I"d rather see my wife and kids


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

ozzy42 said:


> I don't find it disturbing at all.





You don't huh? Well all of you everywhere can adopt that mindset as far as I am concerned so I won't have any competition Nationwide.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> You don't huh? Well all of you everywhere can adopt that mindset as far as I am concerned so I won't have any competition Nationwide.



What you gettin' at here, mickey? You don't like what you do? You remind me of my boss. ####in' HATES tree work. Why would he choose that profession then? I'll give you that I'm young, dumb, enthusiastic, and all that jazz and maybe another 20 years of this #### I'll want to come back in time and slap my current self in the face for deciding to put my body and mind through this horror of a profession, but man, you can ask my girl, I'm a real ####in' grouch if I don't get some trees down in a day.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> Sunrise,
> 
> we hear you on that staying small and not biting off more than you can chew. you can chew it if you are hungry and smart enough. that is fine if you are satified at just getting by and paying your bills. running a tree care company is a very tough business to operate. much easier things can be done and all the time, investment, and effort could be placed into a different field that would net you a six figure income by staying small. Not in tree care, staying small with the competition a tree care company faces today will not earn you that. There is too much difference in the way a small tree care company runs their operation vs a large one, but your biggest competition is the largest tree care company in your area. the one that gets the highest percentage of the avail jobs. like it or not they are your competition and it is up to you to put together an army of warriors to go into battle against them. by staying small you are bringing a knife to a sword fight.
> 
> ...



I originally wrote a reply to the above that was filled with acrimony and bad will. After reading over it I hit the "Delete" button and I'm sending this instead. Score one for the Spirit of Christmas:

I live very well. My kids are finishing college and doing well. My houses are all paid for and I have the toys I enjoy. I have a gf whom I love. I have done things my way for a very long time, and my way has made me very wealthy, with few regrets. If going after running a big operation is your happiness, then you go, guy, and God bless you. 

Peace on earth to all. Happy New Year.


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## NCTREE (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I don't know sunrise's situation so I won't speak for him but for me, personally, I could give a rat's ass about the big family's, big toy's, big houses, big boats and what not. I don't care. I only strive to be comfortable and earn a decent living. Why trees then? Why my own business then? Why the risk? Because I LOVE it. Every ####in' inch of it. There are parts of the job that aren't great ( poison ivy ), parts of doing business that suck ( paperwork ) , and parts of the risk that aren't a lot of fun ( when #### goes bad ), but when it comes down to it, I'll take the good with the bad because...basically...I'm DONE without it. Swing a hammer? lol, if I don't have my life on the line when slingin' tops and my nuts in a vice to meet a deadline giving me the motivation to push through and come out better for it...well, at the end of the day my beer won't taste as good. Tree work gives my life spice. Running my own business gives me freedom. Risk gives me a boner. It ain't all about the profit.



Couldn't of said it any better myself, except for the getting a woody thing that could be an occupational hazard.


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## ozzy42 (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> You don't huh? Well all of you everywhere can adopt that mindset as far as I am concerned so I won't have any competition Nationwide.



What mindset would that be?

I had a beautiful Christmas. The wife and kids are all healthy and happy as are most of my extended family.
Unlike Christmas 9 years ago. I was making money hand over fist,but was married to a miserable woman,and lost my uncle 1 week before the holidays.
Turned the [then] wife into a miserable woman with a bunch of bling,and did nothing to bring back my uncle.


There is more to life than money my friends


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> What you gettin' at here, mickey? You don't like what you do? You remind me of my boss. ####in' HATES tree work. Why would he choose that profession then? I'll give you that I'm young, dumb, enthusiastic, and all that jazz and maybe another 20 years of this #### I'll want to come back in time and slap my current self in the face for deciding to put my body and mind through this horror of a profession, but man, you can ask my girl, I'm a real ####in' grouch if I don't get some trees down in a day.



I am not saying I love or hate the tree care profession but let me tell you something Blakes, when it comes to business I am a business man. I'm not some guy getting a thrill out of cutting a tree down. You have got us all mixed up. I have done my share of hard work and I am not to good to get out there with my employees and sometimes do but this business is to me like any other and that is the bottom line. They need to have a commercial tree care forum for owners to talk business and then one for guys that just get a thrill out of removing trees.


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## mckeetree (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I have done things my way for a very long time, and my way has made me very wealthy



If I was VERY wealthy I wouldn't touch this business with a ten foot pole.


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Dec 25, 2009)

There is a lot of good information in all of your posts and I really appriciate all of the help.


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## Garden Of Eden (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If I was very wealthy I wouldn't talk about it.



My grandfather, who is a multi-millionaire, says all the time. "There are those who are incredibly wealthy, and those who talk about it." And, along the same lines, "The difference between winners and losers? Losers talk about winning, and winners just do it."

No opinion one way or the other on the whole thread. Just thought the quotes applied. 

My God bless everyone, and bring peace to your families forever!

Jeff


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 25, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If I was very wealthy I wouldn't talk about it.



I suppose "very wealthy" is relative, so I'll just say that I have the money to do what I want to do, when I want to do it. I'm in the tree biz because I love the work and the whole learning process. I had the good luck, and some intelligence, to make the right investments at a young age, and now they have paid off. I can't stand sitting on my rear, at home, and I like the physical nature of climbing and doing work in the trees. That's why I'm in the tree biz. As noted in other posts, though, if business does not pick up in the new year, and it has every year, I will be out of trees and onto yet another profession, which I'll do well in until I move on, again. For me, learning is the most rewarding thing in life, and each new profession brings yet another chance to learn new skills and apply them.

Speaking of "wealthy," what does that mean these days? If you have a net worth of $1M, are you wealthy, very wealthy, well off, barely getting by, etc., etc.?? Is a net worth of $2M "very wealthy?" $10M? I honestly don't know what the general consensus is on terms like that, and when I threw that in, in my last post, I was just going with a gut feeling. Getting out in the Ommmmmisphere---Maybe having your health, peace of mind, happiness and love makes you "very wealthy."


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 25, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> I am not saying I love or hate the tree care profession but let me tell you something Blakes, when it comes to business I am a business man. I'm not some guy getting a thrill out of cutting a tree down. You have got us all mixed up. I have done my share of hard work and I am not to good to get out there with my employees and sometimes do but this business is to me like any other and that is the bottom line. They need to have a commercial tree care forum for owners to talk business and then one for guys that just get a thrill out of removing trees.



I understand that. I just wonder what your motivation for choosing this profession and sticking with it are. You and some of the other big boys on here talk a lot about how this is not a good business to be in if you want to be "wealthy", so why are you in it? John posed a question to those of us who aren't in it for the money, and I told him why I am. If you, like John are in it for the money and you've come to the conclusion that there's no money in it, then why are you in it? Money is a great thing, and yeah, I want more, but a lavish lifestyle is not what I choose, I just want a nice little cabin and a few more acres of land. I could get that in almost any profession if I applied myself, but I LIKE tree work, that's why I do it.


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## John464 (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> I could get that in almost any profession if I applied myself, but I LIKE tree work, that's why I do it.



thats a fair enough answer and nothing wrong with that. My hats off to you guys who put up with the abuse of being a tree care owner op who cant see the achievement of their dreams within short term reach(i.e cabin and acrerage). My point is that is it will take you working harder and longer to get that cabin and a couple acres if you stay small because of the fierce and highly mechanized competition you face.

Nothing wrong with this way at all, but when I hear these whiners(not you blakes) crying about work ill be the first one to tell you to quit whining and lay down the risk and reap the benefits. Their is no better time than now to re-invent your company.

The number one goal that you will learn in any business school is that the reason a business exists is to maximize profit. If you are not doing that you are simply not a business man, but more of a worker. And again, nothing wrong with that.

I like trees, but I like being a businesses man more. To me its not about the money its about the satisfaction I get from taking a calculated move. Checkmate


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> I like trees, but I like being a businesses man more. To me its not about the money its about the satisfaction I get from taking a calculated move. Checkmate



Which is why I also own a business. I could make damn good money, more than I currently make, climbing for another service but the thrill of a sale, the success of an ad, and the ability to make my own calls garners much satisfaction for me as well. I bet your a poker player, aren't you, John?


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## John464 (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> Which is why I also own a business. I could make damn good money, more than I currently make, climbing for another service but the thrill of a sale, the success of an ad, and the ability to make my own calls garners much satisfaction for me as well. I bet your a poker player, aren't you, John?



Poker, nope, not my game. 

see you do have a business mindset then. keep feeding your business with new ideas and embrace new technology and trends and your thrill level will become even that much greater. you wanting a cabin and acrerage is wanting more than a decent living( which is all you stated you wanted) I think that is why Mcktree replyed the way he did.

Afterall, sounds like to me you want to make a dream come true by implementing your own entreprenurial tactics. I will say I hope you achieve your dreams sooner rather than later and hope I was able to share any wisdom in my posts. Cheers and Merry Christmas


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## treemandan (Dec 25, 2009)

Blakesmaster said:


> What you gettin' at here, mickey? You don't like what you do? You remind me of my boss. ####in' HATES tree work. Why would he choose that profession then? I'll give you that I'm young, dumb, enthusiastic, and all that jazz and maybe another 20 years of this #### I'll want to come back in time and slap my current self in the face for deciding to put my body and mind through this horror of a profession, but man, you can ask my girl, I'm a real ####in' grouch if I don't get some trees down in a day.



I often look at guys like that I wonder if I will be the same after so long. I like the work but the business sucks. I am very happy to have the great clients I have now I would be scared if I had to really pound the pavement competing with some of the guys out there now.
I do feel bad when I see them doing some jobs I would have like to do but there is little I can do about that. If I can't do it well and make good money and be happy about it then screw it.
If I wasn't able to walk away, if I had to rely on others to do the work, if I had to cheapen myself time and again to keep a crew working and support them I couldn't.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 25, 2009)

John464 said:


> Poker, nope, not my game.
> 
> see you do have a business mindset then. keep feeding your business with new ideas and embrace new technology and trends and your thrill level will become even that much greater. you wanting a cabin and acrerage is wanting more than a decent living( which is all you stated you wanted) I think that is why Mcktree replyed the way he did.
> 
> Afterall, sounds like to me you want to make a dream come true by implementing your own entreprenurial tactics. I will say I hope you achieve your dreams sooner rather than later and hope I was able to share any wisdom in my posts. Cheers and Merry Christmas


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> If I was VERY wealthy I wouldn't touch this business with a ten foot pole.



What would you do if you were very wealthy?

Personally I would want to do something. I have little desire to travel, did too much of that in earlier job. But I would want to do something. 

Why not invest in something you enjoy/love, hire a few younger guys to help out and to whom you can teach the work.


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> What would you do if you were very wealthy?




I don't know for sure. Realistically the chances of me ever being very wealthy are not good. One thing is for sure though, it would not be a service business. I love to travel but with the ball and chain of this business around my neck I can't leave for very long. I wouldn't want to do ANYTHING that required employees. I guess if I had the money I would buy a house on the beach around Majajual, Mexico and fish my life away.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> What would you do if you were very wealthy?
> 
> Personally I would want to do something. I have little desire to travel, did too much of that in earlier job. But I would want to do something.
> 
> Why not invest in something you enjoy/love, hire a few younger guys to help out and to whom you can teach the work.



Yeah, I agree. Well said. The trees keep me interested in learning more about arboriculture, everyday, and they keep me in better shape than any of my old friends who are now stuck behind desks and/or in cars/trucks/taxis all day long. At 57, I still weigh what I did in high school (155 lbs.) and my BMI is right around 11%. I find the work fun and challenging on many fronts. Many times I have gone through a scenario where I win $20M in the lottery and I think about what I would do. Always, it comes back to the trees, with perhaps a few more vacations thrown in. Should I be forced to start up in another profession due to a lack of cash flow from the trees, you can bet your #$$ that I will do trees on the weekends just for the pleasure of doing them.


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Many times I have gone through a scenario where I win $20M in the lottery and I think about what I would do. Always, it comes back to the trees




Ha! If I won 20M the only thing I want to do with trees is be in a hammock tied to two of them.


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## tree MDS (Dec 26, 2009)

I wouldnt know what to do without the tree thing.

If I was to win 20 mil I would probably just re-invest in my biz, really put a hurting on some of these guys. 

It would also be nice to drag a couple of my buddys away from their crap jobs.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Many times I have gone through a scenario where I win $20M in the lottery and I think about what I would do. Always, it comes back to the trees, with perhaps a few more vacations thrown in.



Agreed 110%.. 

I may have some newer equipment, maybe a bit bigger in some areas (larger chipper), etc.. what I would likely do is branch out a bit, and get a bit bigger. Heck I already have employees.. so a couple more would not matter. What it would do is by being a bit bigger.. allow me to hire full time people to do the administration work!!  Hire a field manager to look after the crews (yes I would still be there - but if I wanted to take a few days off I could)  !!

Now that is what I think I will dream about for a bit.. then come back to reality!


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I wouldnt know what to do without the tree thing.
> 
> If I was to win 20 mil I would probably just re-invest in my biz, really put a hurting on some of these guys.
> 
> It would also be nice to drag a couple of my buddys away from their crap jobs.



I like that !! Good attitude


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## Grace Tree (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If I won 20 million my neighbors would think I was the gardener that worked at the estate tending the owners plant collection.


If I won 20 million I'd keep doing trees 'till the money was all gone.
Phil


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

Maybe I will go out and buy a lottery ticket today!! :yoyo:


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## treemandan (Dec 26, 2009)

Well you can't win if ya don't play!


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## treemandan (Dec 26, 2009)

Small Wood said:


> If I won 20 million I'd keep doing trees 'till the money was all gone.
> Phil



I hear that!


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## tree MDS (Dec 26, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Well you can't win if ya don't play!



Funny thing, I've never bought a single lotto ticket - not even a scratch off.

Lord knows I'm in the packie enough! 

Maybe I'll start... been thinking about it. gotta be an easier way.


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2009)

Some of you guys are just plain nuts. Funny. An old guy in Dallas that had been doing tree work for 40 years told me back around 1985 or so that I didn't fit the bill for a tree man. When I asked him why, he said "Because you don't appear to be a nut. Treemen are all nuts. And you make sense." I just looked at him and said whatever. After doing this for myself for 23 years and dealing with dozens of people in this profession I realize the validity in
the old cats statement.


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## Blakesmaster (Dec 26, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Some of you guys are just plain nuts. Funny. An old guy in Dallas that had been doing tree work for 40 years told me back around 1985 or so that I didn't fit the bill for a tree man. When I asked him why, he said "Because you don't appear to be a nut. Treemen are all nuts. And you make sense." I just looked at him and said whatever. After doing this for myself for 23 years and dealing with dozens of people in this profession I realize the validity in
> the old cats statement.



lol



> I wouldnt know what to do without the tree thing.
> 
> If I was to win 20 mil I would probably just re-invest in my biz, really put a hurting on some of these guys.
> 
> It would also be nice to drag a couple of my buddys away from their crap jobs.



I'm with you on that MDS, I'd hire my pals full time in a second. 

"You trim that tree, you go cable that one, that spruce there, limb it up and chunk it down, oh...that monster oak over there, yeah, I'll handle that when the crane shows up."


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## treemandan (Dec 26, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Some of you guys are just plain nuts. Funny. An old guy in Dallas that had been doing tree work for 40 years told me back around 1985 or so that I didn't fit the bill for a tree man. When I asked him why, he said "Because you don't appear to be a nut. Treemen are all nuts. And you make sense." I just looked at him and said whatever. After doing this for myself for 23 years and dealing with dozens of people in this profession I realize the validity in
> the old cats statement.



Now we know.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 26, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Ha! If I won 20M the only thing I want to do with trees is be in a hammock tied to two of them.



LOL! I don't believe you, to tell you the truth. You have sap in your veins as most of us in here do. Yeah, you might lay in your hammock for a bit, but eventually your gaze would start focusing on the limbs above you and how this one needs a little pruning, and----hmmmm--I think that one is dead, it may need to come off, and-----I think I'll fire up my 200 and get up there, well, just for a little while, but-------


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Maybe I will go out and buy a lottery ticket today!! :yoyo:



OK, but I want 10%, if you hit it, for motivating you to do so.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 26, 2009)

Are you giving up? Sunrise?


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> LOL! I don't believe you, to tell you the truth. You have sap in your veins as most of us in here do. Yeah, you might lay in your hammock for a bit, but eventually your gaze would start focusing on the limbs above you and how this one needs a little pruning, and----hmmmm--I think that one is dead, it may need to come off, and-----I think I'll fire up my 200 and get up there, well, just for a little while, but-------



Naw, no climbing for me anymore. Way too fat and my back and shoulders are shot now. There was a time though. I'm still decent on the ground if the mood strikes me. I do sales, consultations, soil analysis, appraisals, go out on larger planting jobs, still do a lot of application, that sort of thing. I get the payroll ready every week and the books ready to go to the bookkeeper. Of course I run the safety program and keep up with employee filings. I end up giving out a lot of free info on the phone with people calling wanting to know what kind of bug is this. If I won that 20 Mil though, hey if I cashed in that TWENTY, color me gone. I will get a transfusion to get the sap out or something.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 26, 2009)

jefflovstrom said:


> Are you giving up? Sunrise?



Funny you should ask. The phone was ringing off the hook, today. I'm back on the truck, boys. Next week is booked, solid. What a weird hot or cold profession this is.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 26, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> Funny you should ask. The phone was ringing off the hook, today. I'm back on the truck, boys. Next week is booked, solid. What a weird hot or cold profession this is.



I've got to add, here, that my mailing list is now in the best shape it has ever been in. It took me about a week of almost non-stop data entry to shape it up---something I should have done months ago, but put off. I hate doing mindless work like that, but the slow-down drove me to do it. I suppose the dark cloud does have a silver lining.

When my right-hand man, Dan, gets back from vacation, he will be given the list and I expect him to book us through March.

Just out of curiosity, what programs do you guys use to keep your client data base in good shape? I'm now using Mail List (V 4.0.1.0) by Avanquest. It seems to be a keeper, for now. I like the way I can now sort by zip code. When I'm going to be in a given area, I can now call everyone in that area and see what they may need. 

Again, it is always feast or famine in this biz.


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## ewoolsey (Dec 26, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Part of what I was talking about is how customers perceive you. You are cementing the fact that you are perceived as a "door knocker." Around here that is not too good a tag to have hung around your neck. No matter what you do or think you kinda have that vacuum cleaner salesman stigma attached to you. I think if you are going door to door and doing any good with that you are either cheap as an illegal alien or worse yet cheaper than one. A man watching me type this just commented "All he is really doing is just aggravating the community and making real tree care companies look bad as a profession." I have to agree with that. Plus I think you are about 99% hogwash based on what you have posted since you joined and that is my opinion.


I am not on here much , but it didnt take me long to see who think that they are god on here ,around here it's called making a living, if the guy needs to door knock , it dose'nt bother me, i have though about it if im in the area that need some work done, i am happy if i work 2-3 days a week , who wants to work 5 days a week every week any way, not me. i am not over my head indebt like most , the weather is the only problem now, i have work to do , yes my help would like to work more and i do thank of him , like most there is the slow time's, we all must make the best of it .


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## mckeetree (Dec 26, 2009)

ewoolsey said:


> i am happy if i work 2-3 days a week , who wants to work 5 days a week every week any way, not me.



Unreal.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

ewoolsey said:


> i am happy if i work 2-3 days a week



What do you do the rest of the time.. I love the work.

Now I must admit some time is spent working on the equipment, cleaning it.. changing oil, etc.. but for the most part it and I are in the field working.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 26, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I'm now using Mail List (V 4.0.1.0) by Avanquest. It seems to be a keeper, for now. I like the way I can now sort by zip code. When I'm going to be in a given area, I can now call everyone in that area and see what they may need.



If it works keep it. I am using one called Mailing List Deluxe (I think that is name).. not sure who makes it.

I also have a scheduling program - it is really designed for the lawn mowing side of my business - but also does dual duty for tree side (as there is more software on lawn side it seems!)


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## ewoolsey (Dec 26, 2009)

I like doing it to ,i also do taxidermy / trapping ,hunting, fishing,and some metal detecting , yes really.


TreeClimber57 said:


> What do you do the rest of the time.. I love the work.
> 
> Now I must admit some time is spent working on the equipment, cleaning it.. changing oil, etc.. but for the most part it and I are in the field working.


 .


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 27, 2009)

ewoolsey said:


> I like doing it to ,i also do taxidermy / trapping ,hunting, fishing,and some metal detecting , yes really. .



Good pass time.. I also do hunting, fishing, photography, gardening.. but still love working a full week. But each to their own.


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## NCTREE (Dec 27, 2009)

ewoolsey said:


> I am not on here much , but it didnt take me long to see who think that they are god on here ,around here it's called making a living, if the guy needs to door knock , it dose'nt bother me, i have though about it if im in the area that need some work done, i am happy if i work 2-3 days a week , who wants to work 5 days a week every week any way, not me. i am not over my head indebt like most , the weather is the only problem now, i have work to do , yes my help would like to work more and i do thank of him , like most there is the slow time's, we all must make the best of it .



i don't see that at all, please specify


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> i don't see that at all, please specify




He had that aimed at me I guess. Around AS, You can't talk about how to be professional in this industry without some folks claiming you think you are some kind of a king or some nonsense. This door-knockity tree gypsy two day a weeker comes with this line about me thinking I am God just because I denounce practices that are viewed as unprofessional in this industry today.


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## tree MDS (Dec 27, 2009)

We had a real nasty home invasion thing go down here a while back in which a mother and her two daughters were killed. The father was also badly beaten, but the poor bastard survived. They got the two scumbags...but as far as the door knocking thing goes around these parts - not so much after that. I'll just wait for the phone to ring.


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> I'll just wait for the phone to ring.



Me too. One of these days one of these door knocking "tree guys" around my area is going to end up scaring a homeowner and getting shot. Last year one got his ass chewed all to pieces by a dog. The dog actually bit his balls off. Another one was pretty lucky a couple years ago (he was an illegal alien trying to solicit mowing) when he thought he heard someone say "come in", walked in and got smashed over the head with a heavy vase by the lady of the house. He spent a few days in the hospital over that deal.


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## NCTREE (Dec 27, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> We had a real nasty home invasion thing go down here a while back in which a mother and her two daughters were killed. The father was also badly beaten, but the poor bastard survived. They got the two scumbags...but as far as the door knocking thing goes around these parts - not so much after that. I'll just wait for the phone to ring.



I've pondered door knocking before and have done some too. My dad has a business in which he's owned for 20yrs. We discuss this stuff from time to time. All of his work is word of mouth no advertising. He explained that he never had good luck with door knocking. 

I get extremely nervous approaching people houses to door knock or leave flyers. For one you enchroaching and trespassing. If someone answers the door i feel really desperate and propbably wont make a sale even if they have money to spend on treework. Making sales is about confidence and it's a hole different story when someone calls you.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 27, 2009)

Do you ever think about taking a job with a big company in a management position? 
Jeff


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## tree MDS (Dec 27, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> I've pondered door knocking before and have done some too. My dad has a business in which he's owned for 20yrs. We discuss this stuff from time to time. All of his work is word of mouth no advertising. He explained that he never had good luck with door knocking.
> 
> I get extremely nervous approaching people houses to door knock or leave flyers. For one you enchroaching and trespassing. If someone answers the door i feel really desperate and propbably wont make a sale even if they have money to spend on treework. Making sales is about confidence and it's a hole different story when someone calls you.



Agreed. I sort of tried the door knocking/door hanger thing a little, way back when I first started. It wasnt a matter of a couple weeks later that the local paper published an article about fraudulent "treeguys" running around door knocking. If I remember correctly they would take deposits, and of course never show up. Thankfully that article saved me from further embarrassing myself and that was the end of that for me.


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## ozarktreeman (Dec 27, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Me too. One of these days one of these door knocking "tree guys" around my area is going to end up scaring a homeowner and getting shot. Last year one got his ass chewed all to pieces by a dog. The dog actually bit his balls off. Another one was pretty lucky a couple years ago (he was an illegal alien trying to solicit mowing) when he thought he heard someone say "come in", walked in and got smashed over the head with a heavy vase by the lady of the house. He spent a few days in the hospital over that deal.



In TX.that is very likely to happen.people there take there home defense very seriosly. GB George Bush.


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## southernoutdoor (Dec 27, 2009)

Round here only gypsies go door to door tryin to get work, but whatever works for ya...I personally wouldnt take to well if Im in the middle of a football game half lit on some" captain morgan " and someone knocks on my door to ask about trimming my trees lol I probably might get a little redneck


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> He explained that he never had good luck with door knocking.



At least he didn't get his balls bit off.


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

tree MDS said:


> It wasnt a matter of a couple weeks later that the local paper published an article about fraudulent "treeguys" running around door knocking.



Our paper just ran a similar article about door knocking tree trimmers. There was a good one in the Houston paper a few years back. Man, that one really made them out to be what they are.


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 27, 2009)

I hope that all of this discussion and given to the difference between marketing and advertising.
Jeff


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## NCTREE (Dec 27, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Our paper just ran a similar article about door knocking tree trimmers. There was a good one in the Houston paper a few years back. Man, that one really made them out to be what they are.



I think I saw something on the news my first year in business similar to that. I was only in my first year and door knocking was actually a pondering thought then I saw the news. I was like great way to ruin it for the rest of us. I would of felt embarassed door knocking after that.


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## treemandan (Dec 27, 2009)

I think door to door sales went out a long time ago, yes it was packed with creeps and frauds.
Now if you are working at a house and take time to leave a flyer or something around I don't see what is so horrid about that. I mean lots of times when I am working people just come up to me and ask for an estimate. I figure its a two way street, it has to be, it just has to.
I don't see anything wrong with putting out flyers either.


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## treeman82 (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm slow right now, and this hasn't been a banner year by far. 

I've seen guys do the door knocking thing, or the most strange by far, is they will be driving by and see a person outside working in their yard... just stop the truck, get out and start talking with them about tree work that they need. These are ideas I don't condone.

On the other hand, I have been working at 1 house, and go to the neighbors to introduce myself... it works for me, but lately for some reason I have been slacking of on it, and I know that's a part of the reason why my phone is kind of quiet.


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## treemandan (Dec 27, 2009)

there is one company I know that goes door to door. Its a non-profit agency for clean air. They have a permit to do so and contact the police to tell them what area they are in. One day I had a kid sitting out on my curb waiting for a ride inthe rain for an hour.
When I was in school in AZ I had a door to door job. It was a water quality survey for a company that sold water conditioners. It paid very little of course, we all got the shaft when the salesmen screwed us. Now they were shysters.
But that is America, get a foot in the door, pitch the sale, sell the pitch and move on taking no prisoners. I shouldn't say just America, its everywhere, its business.


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## lxt (Dec 27, 2009)

It takes awhile for steady work year round, advertisement is key....along with a professional approach, customer relations is key, you will get more with sugar than with chit....so above all be nice!

I was told that if you go in debt you better make 3 times the amount you financed a year, I see guys my way buying new dump trucks & chippers spending 50-60k, winter comes then their selling stuff off!

Dont door knock, putting out fliers or professional formaids is different, ie; door hangers, promo offers, coupons, PHC guidesheets & similar! But to physically knock & sell..........NO!.

Be patient...time & a good work rep will do you best!!


LXT............


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## treemandan (Dec 27, 2009)

lxt said:


> It takes awhile for steady work year round, advertisement is key....along with a professional approach, customer relations is key, you will get more with sugar than with chit....so above all be nice!
> 
> I was told that if you go in debt you better make 3 times the amount you financed a year, I see guys my way buying new dump trucks & chippers spending 50-60k, winter comes then their selling stuff off!
> 
> ...


 This country was half built by door to door salesmen believe it or not. Not that I condone it myself.


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## ArborSmithNw (Dec 27, 2009)

lxt said:


> It takes awhile for steady work year round, advertisement is key....along with a professional approach, customer relations is key, you will get more with sugar than with chit....so above all be nice!
> 
> I was told that if you go in debt you better make 3 times the amount you financed a year, I see guys my way buying new dump trucks & chippers spending 50-60k, winter comes then their selling stuff off!
> 
> ...



Littering is ok but talking to somebody is bad, got it.


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## treemandan (Dec 27, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> Littering is ok but talking to somebody is bad, got it.



Yes, that is the general consensus. You should see all the liter in my mailbox.


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## ozarktreeman (Dec 27, 2009)

Ya know after reading all this,to door knock not to door knock.
Do whatever works best for your situation. After all no one on here WILL be paying your bills.I don't condone it but if I had to pay the bills I believe I could sell enough to make it.Regardless of what the perception is.what the hell I will go some where I am not known.
and that probably ain,t to far.


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## treemandan (Dec 27, 2009)

Speaking of liter in my mailbox








See? They used my name without my permission in thier advertising. I am pretty pissed about that. Do you guys think I can sue? There is my name right alongside thier name.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 27, 2009)

treeman82 said:


> I'm slow right now, and this hasn't been a banner year by far.
> 
> I've seen guys do the door knocking thing, or the most strange by far, is they will be driving by and see a person outside working in their yard... just stop the truck, get out and start talking with them about tree work that they need. These are ideas I don't condone.
> 
> On the other hand, I have been working at 1 house, and go to the neighbors to introduce myself... it works for me, but lately for some reason I have been slacking of on it, and I know that's a part of the reason why my phone is kind of quiet.



I guess I'll weigh in, here. I have no problem with hanging flyers when times are tough. I will not do a blanket flyer campaign in a given area, though. Rather, I will find those homes where the trees are in serious need of work and then drop off a "Sorry We Missed You" hanger that contains a proposal to do the listed work. When it comes to door knocking, I will only do it if my crew is across the street, next door, etc., and the prospective client, whom I can see needs some work done, can see what we're doing for their neighbor. I don't like having my door knocked on by those soliciting my business, out of nowhere, so I try to treat others as I want to be treated. That means I won't do a blanket door knocking campaign, ever.


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

ArborSmithNw said:


> Littering is ok but talking to somebody is bad, got it.



No, it's not OK either. Door to door solicitation, littering someones neighborhood with a bunch of fliers that blow off what it was put on three seconds after it was put there and then blows around the yard, tacky(and all of them are) door hangers and anything else that puts you on that person's property when your ass is uninvited and makes you basically a trespasser are all off limits. It is against the law to stuff your cards and fliers in their mailbox also. If you want to market your business to people that aren't contacting you, use the mail.


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I have no problem with hanging flyers when times are tough.



Most neighborhoods around here have an ordinance against it. Of course that's fine with me.


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 27, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Most neighborhoods around here have an ordinance against it. Of course that's fine with me.



Yes, a lot of areas around here we need to pay the post office to deliver them. Usually post cards work better than flyers I have found.


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## mckeetree (Dec 27, 2009)

TreeClimber57 said:


> Yes, a lot of areas around here we need to pay the post office to deliver them. Usually post cards work better than flyers I have found.




Exactly.


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## NCTREE (Dec 28, 2009)

I haven't heard much talk about internet websites in this thread. I have been pondering notion of a website. You guys that have websites do you see much return on them? Is their certain things to consider when having a website built like the number of hits you will receive and costs of making the site?


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## TreeClimber57 (Dec 28, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> I haven't heard much talk about internet websites in this thread. I have been pondering notion of a website. You guys that have websites do you see much return on them? Is their certain things to consider when having a website built like the number of hits you will receive and costs of making the site?



I am interested in hearing this as well. What works and what does not. Frankly our website does not work, but was waiting to see if something different may. How does a website work, what makes it work, and how do you get users to find it.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 28, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> I haven't heard much talk about internet websites in this thread. I have been pondering notion of a website. You guys that have websites do you see much return on them? Is their certain things to consider when having a website built like the number of hits you will receive and costs of making the site?



My web site gets me a good deal of business. I can put its URL on signs, cards, small ads, etc. and it takes it from there. 

You can build your own site with any of the programs out there designed to make it easy for you to do so. While my site is pretty bare basic, it gets the job done and didn't cost me a cent to put together.

I could pay Google a lot more to move it up the list on its paid ad hits, but I haven't felt the need.


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## Tree Pig (Dec 28, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> My web site gets me a good deal of business. I can put its URL on signs, cards, small ads, etc. and it takes it from there.
> 
> You can build your own site with any of the programs out there designed to make it easy for you to do so. While my site is pretty bare basic, it gets the job done and didn't cost me a cent to put together.
> 
> I could pay Google a lot more to move it up the list on its paid ad hits, but I haven't felt the need.



Websites are a great idea there are a ton of good free tools out there if you have any computer skills at all. I use pretty advanced stuff adobe creative suite master collection which runs about $2500 

but in the past I used something called webeasy 6.0 which was a free download, its pretty easy to use you can still get it here I believe.

http://www.brothersoft.com/web-easy-express-46903.html


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 28, 2009)

We have a web-site and so does all our competition, In fact, All our competition has a web-site or they are not competition. Sounds harsh, sorry.
Jeff


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## lxt (Dec 28, 2009)

I am one of maybe 2-3 services who has a website, in my area its not a needed thing, lots of seniors who still read the newspaper & this is the majority of my demographic.

My website does ok, brings me in biz from further than I would like to travel but... it pays to good to pass up! also its nice telling people check out my website for coupon offers, references, testimonials, etc...

something I do every now & then is to go to many of the ritzy local neighborhoods & meet the paper delivery person, (adult or teenager), once a week paper or everyday delivery & make a deal with them, I pay them to put my promo`s in the paper & deliver it!........for $25 I have not yet had one refusal, But have made thousands in return! I also make it a point to send them a little extra here n there & at the holiday season!


LXT...................


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## treemandan (Dec 28, 2009)

lxt said:


> I am one of maybe 2-3 services who has a website, in my area its not a needed thing, lots of seniors who still read the newspaper & this is the majority of my demographic.
> 
> My website does ok, brings me in biz from further than I would like to travel but... it pays to good to pass up! also its nice telling people check out my website for coupon offers, references, testimonials, etc...
> 
> ...




OOOOOO, I'm tellin! 


No, that is using your noodle. Where did you go? The Rodney Dangerfield School of Business?


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## lxt (Dec 29, 2009)

treemandan said:


> OOOOOO, I'm tellin!
> 
> 
> No, that is using your noodle. Where did you go? The Rodney Dangerfield School of Business?





LOL, I know it sounds un-orthodox, but it works unbeleivably well & it gives the paperboy/girl a little extra!

Its kinda funny right around x-mas they`ll call me & see if I want to have them put promo`s in the paper.....they love the extra cash!

LXT.................


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## Garden Of Eden (Dec 29, 2009)

*Trespassing Law*

I know in Michigan this is what the law says, I'm sure other states are similar.

"Criminal trespass law is enforced by police, sheriffs, or park rangers. Civil trespass requires that the landowner initiate a private enforcement action in court to collect any damages for which the trespasser may be responsible, regardless of whether a crime has been committed. Traditionally, for either type of trespass, some level of intent is required. Thus, the trespasser must not simply unwittingly traverse another's land but must knowingly go onto the property without permission. Knowledge may be inferred when the owner tells the trespasser not to go on the land, when the land is fenced, or when a "no trespassing" sign in posted. A trespasser would probably not be prosecuted if the land was open, the trespasser's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property, and the trespasser left immediately on request."

Basically, it's not really prosecutable, if the owner tells you to leave, and you do, or if there isn't a sign saying not to. Sadly, just because I'm on someone's property, does not mean I'm trespassing.
Not looking for a debate, just clearing up a misconception. 

God Bless.

Jeff


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## lxt (Dec 29, 2009)

Boy, In Michigan you could really jam certain religious groups, I have the Jehovah nitwits (no offense) put fliers on my door every other week!

If I'm home when they stop I'm cordial to em, but after 15yrs.....you would think they would give up!!



LXT...............


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## NCTREE (Dec 29, 2009)

lxt said:


> Boy, In Michigan you could really jam certain religious groups, I have the Jehovah nitwits (no offense) put fliers on my door every other week!
> 
> If I'm home when they stop I'm cordial to em, but after 15yrs.....you would think they would give up!!
> 
> ...



I have the perfect way to get rid of those jehovahs, come to the door dressed in a charles manson t-shirt and a baseball cap with an upsidedown pentagram on it. That will send them running quick.:jawdrop:


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## lxt (Dec 29, 2009)

:agree2: LMFAO.....that would send the one lil ole lady into a coma! 



LXT..........


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## mckeetree (Dec 29, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> While my site is pretty bare basic, it gets the job done and didn't cost me a cent to put together.



I used to have a site until a customer that designs sites made me feel so ashamed of my page that I took it down upon his recommendation. I'm going to get one back up in 2010. Here is the thing about websites and this comes from a guy that has built them for fortune 500 companies "Your website gives potential clients an instant perception of you and your company. There are thousands of sites out there that suck and the average Joe doesn't realize how bad his web page is. The first thing the customer sees, the first thing, they instantly start to form a conscious and unconscious opinion of you. If your site is just plain bad, and man, there are a hundred ways to mess one up, you are better off with just a '"store front" type page or not one at all." He showed me all the mistakes that I made in my site and told me "See, I know you, you worked for me before I ever had a look at that website. If I didn't know you, and the only thing I had to go by to form my opinion of your company was that website, I'm going to say I probably would never have called you."


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 29, 2009)

Gotta have a site.
Jeff
Lots of people with puters.


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## mckeetree (Dec 29, 2009)

Garden Of Eden said:


> I know in Michigan this is what the law says, I'm sure other states are similar.
> 
> Basically, it's not really prosecutable, Sadly, just because I'm on someone's property, does not mean I'm trespassing.




Don't get too sure. They can and do prosecute people in Texas for being on someone's property. If you walk up into someone's yard, and you know you are on their property and can't prove you have reason to be there (and reason can't be you are trying to sell something) you run the risk of all sorts of things happening to you around here.


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## ozarktreeman (Dec 29, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Don't get to sure. They can and do prosecute people in Texas for being on someone's property. If you walk up into someone's yard, and you know you are on their property and can't prove you have reason to be there (and reason can't be you are trying to sell something) you run the risk of all sorts of things happening to you around here.






AHHHAHHH! God Bless Texas. Man I miss that place sometimes.
Then again you can get good mesican food anywhere. Almost.


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## Sunrise Guy (Dec 29, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> I used to have a site until a customer that designs sites made me feel so ashamed of my page that I took it down upon his recommendation. I'm going to get one back up in 2010. Here is the thing about websites and this comes from a guy that has built them for fortune 500 companies "Your website gives potential clients an instant perception of you and your company. There are thousands of sites out there that suck and the average Joe doesn't realize how bad his web page is. The first thing the customer sees, the first thing, they instantly start to form a conscious and unconscious opinion of you. If your site is just plain bad, and man, there are a hundred ways to mess one up, you are better off with just a '"store front" type page or not one at all." He showed me all the mistakes that I made in my site and told me "See, I know you, you worked for me before I ever had a look at that website. If I didn't know you, and the only thing I had to go by to form my opinion of your company was that website, I'm going to say I probably would never have called you."



I had the same high-tech, designer types, telling me how bad my last (tattoo) site was. I told them all to piss off. Then my old site was voted one of the "100 Best in Texas" sites by Texas Monthly magazine, and you know they are pretty well-regarded down here. I don't go in for all of the bells and whistles. I just tell it like it is on my current site, which I lifted directly from my old site. Yeah, my color scheme is a bit cheesy, and maybe it's a little rough on the eyes, but I doubt, strongly, that I would get more business by tweaking it. I am not planning on changing it until I am ready to do it myself, and I don't have the time or inclination to do so, right now.


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## BC WetCoast (Dec 30, 2009)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I had the same high-tech, designer types, telling me how bad my last (tattoo) site was. I told them all to piss off. Then my old site was voted one of the "100 Best in Texas" sites by Texas Monthly magazine, and you know they are pretty well-regarded down here. I don't go in for all of the bells and whistles. I just tell it like it is on my current site, which I lifted directly from my old site. Yeah, my color scheme is a bit cheesy, and maybe it's a little rough on the eyes, but I doubt, strongly, that I would get more business by tweaking it. I am not planning on changing it until I am ready to do it myself, and I don't have the time or inclination to do so, right now.



I'm sure you competitors appreciate you doing your page in Davey colours


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## capetrees (Dec 30, 2009)

NCTREE said:


> I have the perfect way to get rid of those jehovahs, come to the door dressed in a charles manson t-shirt and a baseball cap with an upsidedown pentagram on it. That will send them running quick.:jawdrop:




I just listen to their speach at the door, tell them to "go to hell" and close the door.

Hasn't been a return for many years. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## MonkeyMan_812 (Dec 30, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> Don't get too sure. They can and do prosecute people in Texas for being on someone's property. If you walk up into someone's yard, and you know you are on their property and can't prove you have reason to be there (and reason can't be you are trying to sell something) you run the risk of all sorts of things happening to you around here.



Heck, in Texas you can fatally shoot someone who is trying to break into _your neighbors house_ and they wont file charges in some cases. If I am wrong about that please let me know.


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## lxt (Dec 30, 2009)

Web page designers are like any other Biz, I agree on not needing all the bells & whistles, truth is each designer thinks their the best & they know how to market better(sounds like us tree guys).

I have had many people compliment me on my site & even more compliment me on just having a site!! very few tree services here have websites, you can count them on 1 hand.......however you would need several hands to count all the tree services!

As long as it makes you more money than it cost you!!!



LXT.....................


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## mckeetree (Dec 30, 2009)

MonkeyMan_812 said:


> Heck, in Texas you can fatally shoot someone who is trying to break into _your neighbors house_ and they wont file charges in some cases. If I am wrong about that please let me know.



You are pretty much right. There is town close to me here called Gun Barrel City. Their motto is "We shoot straight with you." Some years ago we had wide spread tornadoes through here and tree folks came in from every where. I remember one guy from somewhere up north was poking around trying to get an old man to the door to ask him about a broken branch when the old dude took a pot shot at him. The guy was telling me about it and said "That damn sign needs to say "we shoot straight at you" not "we shoot straight with you."


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## mckeetree (Dec 30, 2009)

lxt said:


> truth is each designer thinks their the best & they know how to market better




That's true to a point but they all agree on some proven fundamentals for the site to make it a selling site and not just another information site.


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## lxt (Dec 31, 2009)

mckeetree said:


> That's true to a point but they all agree on some proven fundamentals for the site to make it a selling site and not just another information site.



In the tree realm you are providing information!! we`re selling our service! which the website is just basically a resume for us, Now in retail I could understand marketing strategies & different page styles.......selling tree work through websites "only"...doesnt work!!, people want to meet you, know about you & basically see if you`re the type of person they want on their property, way different & unlike selling a product!

honestly the proven fundamentals of marketing are the simplest ones & those who think outside the "fundamental" box will spark interest & do better! I have not met one website designer who could sell my service better than me!

they`re are just the catalyst to promote my image, ideas, exp., etc... thats it, if I was computer savy I wouldnt need a web designer! JMHO



LXT...................


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## woodchux (Dec 31, 2009)

*Websites only $25 per year!*

Having website can be a huge advantage for your company. For example If you google 'my town and tree service', i will come up number one in the results now. Websites dont have to be expensive or complicated. I have used this company for 5 or 6 years now and they only charge $25 per year for a website and you get free web hosting! No banner ads or popups either.. Once you have a website with them they will occasionally send you offers to get additional websites for only 6.95 per year!
In the last couple of years alot of people have started using the internet to find businesses instead of using the phonebook. I get at least a couple of jobs each month from my website.
I wouldnt tell yall about this company if i didnt use them myself and know that its the real deal. 
If you use this link you can get the website for only $25 per year total cost, no BS! 
http://affiliate.doteasy.com/index.cfm?M=red&B=3&T=185477&A=woodchux


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## jefflovstrom (Dec 31, 2009)

Yup.
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Dec 31, 2009)

lxt said:


> honestly the proven fundamentals of marketing are the simplest ones & those who think outside the "fundamental" box will spark interest & do better!



Actually that was one of the fundamentals I was referring to. Thinking outside the box with the site design. Sometimes you start acting like a blockhead. So your site is your resume. Good deal.


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## treevet (Jan 1, 2010)

Speaking of economy woes....the Burlington, Wis. Liars Club bestowed its highest award Wed for this line...

"I just realized how bad the economy really is. I recently bought a toaster oven and, as a complimentary gift, I was given a bank."

The quip earned Larry Legro of Sun Prarie, Wis., the dubious-but serious- distinction of being the year's World Champion Liar.

"I was ecstatic," said Legro, 58 a state health inspector. "I told people all year I was planning to win the contest."

His wife rolled her eyes when told of his win.


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