# Climber hurt



## BC WetCoast (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm putting this here rather than Injuries as you will see in a minute.

I've heard through the grapevine, it wasn't in the papers, that a climber from the local &&&&&&&& office was seriously hurt recently. He was SRT a conifer. He had tossed his line over a branch and tied the standing end off at the base of the tree and began climbing. From what I hear, his rope was away from the tree a bit and after he was up about 30' the branch broke. He fell and has leg and back injuries. He has been in an induced coma to assist in healing. If anyone has more details, it would be appreciated. 

The part of this story that applies to this forum is that Worksafe BC, and again this is from discussion from people who are in the know and not an official announcement, is considering a ban on spurless climbing in BC. Worksafe BC is the government agency that dictates safety i this province and reports directly to God himself (ie who cares abou the trees). Whether saner heads will prevail we wait and see.


----------



## TrillPhil (Dec 1, 2010)

I don't see how spurs would have helped him...

Were he to have gone up with spurs, tied into that branch, then had it break... There is no guarantee that the equipment or tree we work on will not fail. 

Although I try to place my lines in a crotch with ideally a second crotch..


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 1, 2010)

the rope belongs in the crotch, not over the limb. 

I carry binoculars in my backpack in case I need to inspect the load limb I'm gonna hang my life on.

good post, bet the little kids who post nonsense (acetreeco2002, etc....) wont recognize the value.


----------



## Damon (Dec 1, 2010)

this should get interesting if they outlaw spurless climbing... wonder how long before the rest of the provinces would jump on the band wagon...


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Dec 1, 2010)

*Spurless Climbing*

Well.. if B.C. does it, suspect Ontario would not be too far behind. Rest of the provinces may be a little slower.

But.. maybe somebody should consider what happened in the accident first before they jump to conclusions. Spurless climbing can be dangerous.. if not done properly. But.. then can just about any other aspect of our business.. 

Just about anything that I do can cause an accident somehow.. climbing with spurs improperly, using chipper, stump grinder, Bobcat, bucket truck, even dumping mulch or wood can cause injury if you are not using common sense. Can get hurt getting out of truck.. somebody has to think about this one before they jump..


----------



## lxt (Dec 1, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> the rope belongs in the crotch, not over the limb.



I agree!!! BUT...he was in a conifer!!!! goodluck at finding a crotch, he should of made sure his life line was over a couple limbs atleast!! hopefully he will be ok.



LXT...............


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 1, 2010)

lxt said:


> I agree!!! BUT...he was in a conifer!!!! goodluck at finding a crotch, he should of made sure his life line was over a couple limbs atleast!! hopefully he will be ok.
> LXT...............



Every branch has a crotch, where it meets the tree. AGAINST the trunk is where the rope goes.

another limb or 2 under would have been better, agreed.


----------



## arborsoldier (Dec 1, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> the rope belongs in the crotch, not over the limb.
> 
> I carry binoculars in my backpack in case I need to inspect the load limb I'm gonna hang my life on.
> 
> good post, bet the little kids who post nonsense (acetreeco2002, etc....) wont recognize the value.



Good One Treeslayer!! That was a zinger!! :agree2:


----------



## NCTREE (Dec 1, 2010)

It's not an issue of whether spikeless climbing conifers is safe, it's an issue of carelessness and inexperience amongst the climber. Why should the trees suffer?


----------



## Saw Dust Smoken (Dec 1, 2010)

*work enviroment*

Being inexperienced, carelessness, or just in a hurry can kill ya. 
Some people cant be saved from there own stupidity?
If this same person drives in the ditch. Or runs telly poles over with there vehicle. Are we going to move ditches and telly poles back from the edge of roadways just to accommodate them?
Will this world ever stop bending over backwards for stupid people??


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Dec 1, 2010)

NCTREE said:


> It's not an issue of whether spikeless climbing conifers is safe, it's an issue of carelessness and inexperience amongst the climber. Why should the trees suffer?



Agreed.


----------



## Damon (Dec 1, 2010)

as an arborist I don't think the tree should suffer, I'm just curious as to whether or not it will come to pass, I hope California jumps on the band wagon and outlaws spikeless climbing, i bet the granolas would have a field day. Up here we climb mostly hardwoods, and if they got spiked regularly they would be in pretty rough shape


----------



## treemandan (Dec 1, 2010)

The poor guy, it seems, did not heed the " know or don't go" rule or something. It can be trying to catch a crotch in conifers and its been vague for me at times but I sure follow that rule. 
Don't want to hear to much about this kind of accident, its bad for srt publicity but really the cause is climber error... pretty stupid error too.
Hey, I don't mean to be saying the guy is stupid, just the error and I know stupid errors cause major #### but what would make a man get on a branch like that?


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 1, 2010)

Saw Dust Smoken said:


> Being inexperienced, carelessness, or just in a hurry can kill ya.
> Some people cant be saved from there own stupidity?
> If this same person drives in the ditch. Or runs telly poles over with there vehicle. Are we going to move ditches and telly poles back from the edge of roadways just to accommodate them?
> Will this world ever stop bending over backwards for stupid people??



:agree2:

Darwin rules......there will always be idiots getting hurt. Carelessness, on the other hand is avoidable. I don't know this guy, and don't intend to insult him, but he f-ed up. my prayers to him and his family though.


----------



## tomtrees58 (Dec 1, 2010)

we can all say its not the way to climb a tree but the bottom line the guy is hurt sad


----------



## TreeClimber57 (Dec 1, 2010)

tomtrees58 said:


> we can all say its not the way to climb a tree but the bottom line the guy is hurt sad



So true.. easy to be critical. On other hand there are proper ways to do the job... then again.. I bet a lot on here have cut corners, either when they were younger.. or because they were in a hurry.. whatever. Most times when guys do things it works out ok.

The unfortunate ones are caught - either because what they were doing was outright stupid.. or they were unlucky when they cut corners. 

Same as guys who don't have insurance.. and there are a lot around here. Most of them get away with it most of the time..


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 1, 2010)

treeslayer said:


> :agree2:
> 
> Darwin rules......there will always be idiots getting hurt. Carelessness, on the other hand is avoidable. I don't know this guy, and don't intend to insult him, but he f-ed up. my prayers to him and his family though.



Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi. 
Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent. 
You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.


----------



## Mikecutstrees (Dec 1, 2010)

Norway Spruce can be very difficult to set a line in too because all of the limbs arch down. Many conifers can be very difficult. Ive even climbed on marginal tips with my lanyard around the tree so I wouldn't take a bad fall if my tip failed. Then I reinstalled when I got up higher. 

Mike


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 2, 2010)

I've picked up a few more details on this accident. Again these are all 3rd hand. The climber was one of the senior people in that operation. 

He bigshot his line into the tree and did a pull test and was confident in his tip.

When he got to about 40' the tip failed and started breaking branches on the way down. He stopped about 4' above the ground. As he stopped, he went backwards in his saddle, turning upside down. He was wearing a Vertex helmet, but had the chinstrap very loose, and as he turned the helmet slid forward toward his nose, exposing the back of his head. He hit the back of his head on the ground. I'm not sure of the surface, but it wasn't light and fluffy.

The debate is a good one. The safe practices of our industry is a reason why we should be involved in industry trade organizations, be it ISA or others. We need a collective voice to stand up to government 'safety' agencies who don't know the business. Without someone telling them what rules are practical and what are pure nonsense, they will create rules that only make sense to them.


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 2, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.



Sure it will. 
Anyone reading it might take heed to our advice and criticism.
As I said, I bear him no ill will, he suffered an accident due to his choice and action. everyone has the potential to do so.

How high up was the TIP?


----------



## treemandan (Dec 2, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
> Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
> You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
> With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.



Very well to point out the differences in the trees from here and there. I was going to convey that myself in my earlier message. I sort of did but not in detail like you.
I did my best to picture the scene in my mind and came up with pretty much the same thing but I added the fact that one is utimately to blame for his own misfortunes BUT yes, there is more to it.
For one, there are high power scopes which to use to see the TIP. I understand completely why they are not a mandate but if I was out there in those sticks I think I would have one. 
Its true I only needed a scope to see my TIP once or twice in my life. We have it easy over here in comparison but I have to say I see all those rec people climbing them pretty good. As an arborist I have to wonder about the geefy smiles on their faces cause the thought of falling don't come easy to me.
Anyway, the point is that there is a way to climb safely and there isn't. If the guy is actually a climber then he probably knew he stood a chance of falling. Don't ya think? Hmmm? It would be different if he was a trainee. Don't ya think? Hmmm?
The reason I am so interested in this is obvious being a user of srt in the same manner. I went up some hairy stuff though I had to pull out and re-insert a few times.


----------



## summit583guy (Dec 13, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
> Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
> You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
> With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.



You nailed it right, people from the east have no idea! Im from the east and can honestly say Srt ascent into firs/cedar/hemlocks up to 250ft can be extremely dangerous, especially cedars due to there branch formation. I worked with this climber at this company and am a friend of this climber. He is a extremely talented climber with lots of experience and formal training. An update of his condition- it's been a couple weeks since ive herd an update but last I herd through a mutual friend was that he is being moved to a rehab facility. He is out of his coma, will speak short sentences but is very forgetfull at times, No spinal injuries. He is in a positive state and on the right road to recovery.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 13, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Srt accent into conifers is one of the most dangerous things we do out here in my opinion. It's interesting that all you guys sight inexperience and poor judgment as the culprit. The one thing in common is you all come from areas east of the Mississippi.
> Often times with Douglas firs and western red cedars they are so dense you really don't know exactly what your tip is like. Binoculars are of little help with trees this dense. Even if your rope is over several branches once you break the t.i.p the inertia will break the remaing branches below. With trees like Western red cedars, every branch grows strait towards the ground,its very easy for your rope to creep out on the ascent.
> You can take precautions like using a flipline on the ascent and spending more time getting a stout tip but most of us are pressured by our employers to just "get up that tree"
> With alot of climbers unaware that srt doubles the load on the t.i.p, company's pushing production and zero tolerance of spiking accidents like these will become more prevalent. Criticizing the climber is not going to save any lives.


Hey feller I have lived most of my whole life west of the Mississippi:monkey: Wonder why your not criticizing, as it is your MO usually Anyway I agree conifers can be dangerous, but so can cottonwood and other poplars. The fact is; you really don't get to know enough until a minimum of five years active climbing and people are always equating speed with good which is not at all the case. I have 27 years aloft and the worst I have been injured thus far in a tree was four stitches which I readily accepted for being a bit stupid. Most climbers have a few close calls especially in the first five years after twenty they many times are not close they're fatal because they are doing the ones no one else will and with declining ability usually. Fatigue and production requirements are the biggest killer and most management do not want that truth exposed imo.


PS: I hope the climber has a full recovery btw.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 13, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Hey feller I have lived most of my whole life west of the Mississippi:monkey: Wonder why your not criticizing, as it is your MO usually Anyway I agree conifers can be dangerous, but so can cottonwood and other poplars. The fact is; you really don't get to know enough until a minimum of five years active climbing and people are always equating speed with good which is not at all the case. I have 27 years aloft and the worst I have been injured thus far in a tree was four stitches which I readily accepted for being a bit stupid. Most climbers have a few close calls especially in the first five years after twenty they many times are not close they're fatal because they are doing the ones no one else will and with declining ability usually. Fatigue and production requirements are the biggest killer and most management do not want that truth exposed imo.
> 
> 
> PS: I hope the climber has a full recovery btw.



Rope ya old dog, nothing I say is gonna enlighten you. The fact that you even compared cottonwoods and poplars shows how naive you are. Both these trees have obvious distinct crotches, they may be weaker wood but at least you know exactly what your dealing with.
I know you have alot more experience in the trees then I, but in this aspect of treework you are absolutely clueless. I climb srt accent into Douglas firs on a daily basis. Today I pruned six of them, not one of them had a branch lower then seventy five feet. (Some hillbilly had raised the crown on all of them) Got my tip with the big shot and inspected it, then had the crew hang on it. Got a bad feeling half way up and used my flipline. When I reached my tip it was a branch about the size of my thumb, looked great from the ground though. 
I don't know what the solution is ,but I assure you these accidents are going to become more prevalent. Nothing is worse then hearing of a accident involving a experienced climber taking all the precautions.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 13, 2010)

I can see the end of this thread.
Jeff


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 13, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> I can see the end of this thread.
> Jeff



I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 13, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Rope ya old dog, nothing I say is gonna enlighten you. The fact that you even compared cottonwoods and poplars shows how naive you are. Both these trees have obvious distinct crotches, they may be weaker wood but at least you know exactly what your dealing with.
> I know you have alot more experience in the trees then I, but in this aspect of treework you are absolutely clueless. I climb srt accent into Douglas firs on a daily basis. Today I pruned six of them, not one of them had a branch lower then seventy five feet. (Some hillbilly had raised the crown on all of them) Got my tip with the big shot and inspected it, then had the crew hang on it. Got a bad feeling half way up and used my flipline. When I reached my tip it was a branch about the size of my thumb, looked great from the ground though.
> I don't know what the solution is ,but I assure you these accidents are going to become more prevalent. Nothing is worse then hearing of a accident involving a experienced climber taking all the precautions.



I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 13, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
> I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.



Oh yeah hillbillies don't over raise city boys do


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 13, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I have climbed trees with similar characteristics some bald Cyprus do that. I know your a good climber cause your a young cock strong ole boy likely. I see myself like fifteen or sol year ago. It would take longer but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?
> I have not climbed your trees but make no mistake I could. You were right about the crotches but if you don't getem tight to the spar the same result was my meaning. It is a shame this man took a violent fall I hope he recovers soon.



I'm interested, how would you set up a bowline to srt off of.. There were no branches or stubs until seventy five feet . How would you install a tip in that situation?


----------



## moss (Dec 13, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> ...but why could you not just bowline the spar then srt on up?



It's pretty much impossible to cinch a bowline to the spar from the ground on a tall conifer/100+ foot SRT setting. Maybe if you had a trained squirrel. 

I think it's the production/peer pressure that results in experienced climbers accepting less than optimal SRT settings.

Classic scene at the base of the tree:
Climber installs a rope over a high branch in a conifer, turns to other members of the crew/team, "Think that's good to climb on?" the guy who's not climbing says "Sure, looks good to me".

That's the pressure. It's easy for someone else to say "Oh ya I'd climb on it". Everything looks good enough to them from the ground. Takes a lot of discipline to stick to your guns and take the time to get a setting that you're totally confident of, even if everyone's twiddling their thumbs and yawning watching you get it right.

Making spurs only rules avoids dealing with improving team safety thinking and support.
-AJ


----------



## beowulf343 (Dec 13, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
> Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.



Hahahahahahaha. Best post of the year!!!


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I bet you can. Maybe it's time to start a thread about the best taco truck to hit for lunch. No wait, we want to know the best tunes to listen to when doing estimates. If that's to much you could just put up some lame azz icons , as usual.
> Fact is this is a extremely important topic for climbers. Sorry if it's not holding the attention of a joyriding supervisor.



Feel better? Fool?
Jeff


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 14, 2010)

jefflovstrom said:


> Feel better? Fool?
> Jeff



I try to make my post's matter, not make me feel better. This is one of the few important topics I have come across on this site. Half the crap you read on this site is either self indulgent or in no way related to tree work. Take a look at the last 20 posts of yours, they are either stupid icons or crap you should be talking about to some secretary. Don't feel embarrassed, there are hundreds of other worthless posts about snowplowing, should I wear a warm sweater in the winter and i have no experience should I start a business etc.
Bottom line is I may talk crap here and there but I try to add humor and keep it tree related. I wish others would do the same, especially with a important topic like this.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 14, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I'm interested, how would you set up a bowline to srt off of.. There were no branches or stubs until seventy five feet . How would you install a tip in that situation?


If I had one worry my tip would , could fail , I would tie the spar off with running bowline.


moss said:


> It's pretty much impossible to cinch a bowline to the spar from the ground on a tall conifer/100+ foot SRT setting. Maybe if you had a trained squirrel.
> 
> I think it's the production/peer pressure that results in experienced climbers accepting less than optimal SRT settings.
> 
> ...



I had already said production requirements and have also told so many times everyone, speed is not to be equated with good. I learned a long time ago, speed will get you killed,will get you dead,will get you dead. Why when someone posts a difficult removal the first thing some five year climber wants to chime in saying, I would have done it in five hours for is beyond me. I can do and have done all my life the things every young whippersnapper needs or routinely uses a crane on now. I, at the end of the day, know I am going home because I work at a pace which suits the needs on the task. I would ask why is it impossible to cinch a bowline from ground I have done it to winch trees countless times! Sure you may have to shoot a couple angles and take a little more TIME but just before someone hits the ground I strongly doubt they are worrying over how fast they did the job! To really get to the nuts on safety someone needs to rough up management as many of these guys, though should be aging climbers are instead schooled cost cutters and bean counters. Yeah, I just said that and it is my opinion that; supervisory positions in tree companies should be filled by aging climbers but how many times do we see the polar opposite? I have actually seen some of these bean counters try to call the shots in the trench and many times making a simple task downright dangerous. The problem imo starts with the standard of supervision being focused on the dollar more than safe operations. It is a direct correlation seen in the need for speed by every aspiring young climber out there. While I may not be the fastest anymore I have one distinct quality over my competition. I know I am going home each night intact. I know through long years of experience and study with careful climbing practices.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 14, 2010)

Ode to Jeffy;

Though we all pick and prod
Though we poke and nod
He is one of the few
He is an aged climber like you.


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 14, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Ode to Jeffy;
> 
> Though we all pick and prod
> Though we poke and nod
> ...


----------



## moss (Dec 14, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I would ask why is it impossible to cinch a bowline from ground I have done it to winch trees countless times! Sure you may have to shoot a couple angles and take a little more TIME



Apologies, I should've been more clear: for tall forest conifers you could spend all day trying to cinch the spar and still not get it. Too many obstructions, small branches etc. up there in the way. A climber can make the effort to get the line over several limbs and do a safe ascent, obviously the guy that was hurt depended on one limb only.
-AJ


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 14, 2010)

moss said:


> Apologies, I should've been more clear: for tall forest conifers you could spend all day trying to cinch the spar and still not get it. Too many obstructions, small branches etc. up there in the way. A climber can make the effort to get the line over several limbs and do a safe ascent, obviously the guy that was hurt depended on one limb only.
> -AJ


 
I am a great cincher who has learned to mitigate tall obstructions but to be honest even it it cinched up partially it would have been better than this out come. Remember if the limb snaps gravity would tighten the loop. If he only was relying on one limb, my guess is it was the first so likely the obstruction clause would not be plausible ehh? The bottom line is, something was done improper, likely trying to meet expectations placed on management production requirements. Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 14, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I am a great cincher who has learned to mitigate tall obstructions but to be honest even it it cinched up partially it would have been better than this out come. Remember if the limb snaps gravity would tighten the loop. If he only was relying on one limb, my guess is it was the first so likely the obstruction clause would not be plausible ehh? The bottom line is, something was done improper, likely trying to meet expectations placed on management production requirements. Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.



Is this a conifer?


----------



## tree md (Dec 14, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> I try to make my post's matter, not make me feel better. This is one of the few important topics I have come across on this site. Half the crap you read on this site is either self indulgent or in no way related to tree work. Take a look at the last 20 posts of yours, they are either stupid icons or crap you should be talking about to some secretary. Don't feel embarrassed, there are hundreds of other worthless posts about snowplowing, should I wear a warm sweater in the winter and i have no experience should I start a business etc.
> Bottom line is I may talk crap here and there but I try to add humor and keep it tree related. I wish others would do the same, especially with a important topic like this.



You have no sense of humor and zero personality. Every now and then you share a good piece of info pertaining to climbing. You are the perfect work drone. I bet your boss loves you. I love hiring guys like you, all business and no screwing off. All you have to do is reinforce their self importance and stroke their egos a little bit. Kudos to you.

Very sorry to hear of this man getting hurt. Gives me pause and reminds me to be very careful about setting remote tie ins. Hope he make a full recovery.


----------



## BC WetCoast (Dec 16, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I am a great cincher who has learned to mitigate tall obstructions but to be honest even it it cinched up partially it would have been better than this out come. Remember if the limb snaps gravity would tighten the loop. If he only was relying on one limb, my guess is it was the first so likely the obstruction clause would not be plausible ehh? The bottom line is, something was done improper, likely trying to meet expectations placed on management production requirements. Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.



Just to confirm, this company only does residential/commercial work, no utility clearance work. Having watched their crews from time to time, they don't appear to have a lot of production pressure on them.


----------



## moss (Dec 16, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Moss many times I have seen no suitable multi- limb set up I took the necessary precautions or my 27 year accident free record would not be. I know you enjoy climbing but I have built my life on it.



Definitely! On all accounts. Can't always get multiple limbs. I'm not a spar cinchmaster so when that happens the limb has to be bomb-proof. I'm never totally happy doing a long conifer ascent on a single limb with a trunk anchor, at least not until I reach the limb.
-AJ


----------



## summit583guy (Dec 21, 2010)

UPDATE:

Went an saw my buddy the other night, he is doing awesome. Has been in the hospitol for a month and half now. He should be in the rehab for another 2 weeks then he can leave and hopefully start working again (light duty). 

BC WESTCOAST- I can assure you there is high pressue working for this company as a crew leader. Ive been there and done it, everything is numbers & production there. 

stay safe.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

moss said:


> Definitely! On all accounts. Can't always get multiple limbs. I'm not a spar cinchmaster so when that happens the limb has to be bomb-proof. I'm never totally happy doing a long conifer ascent on a single limb with a trunk anchor, at least not until I reach the limb.
> -AJ



If I was to climb only your way I would get a very good pull test on any one limb setup and let my lanyard climb with me. I had a supervisor once call a safety lanyard a chicken strap in which case I told him, better a live chicken than a dead dummy. He never liked me after that but he also said one day to a new hire, if you do this long enough you will fall and I called him on it again; telling the new guy there is nothing saying you have to fall, this guy was a real work of art for a super


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

summit583guy said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Went an saw my buddy the other night, he is doing awesome. Has been in the hospitol for a month and half now. He should be in the rehab for another 2 weeks then he can leave and hopefully start working again (light duty).
> 
> ...



Yup it happens bro tell em to f-o I have it's not them in the tree!


----------



## tree md (Dec 21, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> If I was to climb only your way I would get a very good pull test on any one limb setup and let my lanyard climb with me. I had a supervisor once call a safety lanyard a chicken strap in which case I told him, better a live chicken than a dead dummy. He never liked me after that but he also said one day to a new hire, if you do this long enough you will fall and I called him on it again; telling the new guy there is nothing saying you have to fall, this guy was a real work of art for a super



Same here. I've had two or three tell me that I used a lanyard too much. Their belief was that you should not tie in at all with a lanyard until you reached your primary TIP. I followed that rule until one of my friends fell 10' while spiking a large diameter tree and ended up paralyzed from the waist down at 22 years old.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 21, 2010)

tree md said:


> Same here. I've had two or three tell me that I used a lanyard too much. Their belief was that you should not tie in at all with a lanyard until you reached your primary TIP. I followed that rule until one of my friends fell 10' while spiking a large diameter tree and ended up paralyzed from the waist down at 22 years old.



I was a rebel at the gate they were not in the tree and I do whatever it took to make me safe or I would not be climbing now.


----------



## sgreanbeans (Dec 21, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> If I was to climb only your way I would get a very good pull test on any one limb setup and let my lanyard climb with me. I had a supervisor once call a safety lanyard a chicken strap in which case I told him, better a live chicken than a dead dummy. He never liked me after that but he also said one day to a new hire, if you do this long enough you will fall and I called him on it again; telling the new guy there is nothing saying you have to fall, this guy was a real work of art for a super



Geez, what a dirt bag! Seen guys around here that will free climb all the way to their TIP, Climbing line clipped to the back of the saddle and no lanyard. Also seen them foot lock 10ft away from the trunk on a branch that has nothing below to catch the line if the branch breaks! 
Live chicken,dead dummy, gonna use that!


----------



## senechal (Dec 22, 2010)

Update:
He has regained his mobility and speech almost 100%. So good to hear.

My take on the situation, it could have happened to anyone. This climber knows his stuff, and in my opinion made an error in judgment not unlike any of us make during the work week. This time around it cost him big.

Rather than commenting on his integrity, abilities or workplace behaviour, why not take a second to consider something we all can take away from this incident -- No $200 job is worth your life. Check and double check your systems and the structure before, during and after. Build a routine that reduces your exposure, practice it and encourage others to get on board.

Not to take sides or anything, but until you've had reasonable production pressure on setting a solid line in a tall Doug or Western Red, you have no idea what you're up against. The structure, density and heights is one of the biggest dangers we face in the PNW, not SRT.


----------



## tree md (Dec 22, 2010)

senechal said:


> Update:
> He has regained his mobility and speech almost 100%. So good to hear.
> 
> My take on the situation, it could have happened to anyone. This climber knows his stuff, and in my opinion made an error in judgment not unlike any of us make during the work week. This time around it cost him big.
> ...



Rep sent but in all honesty... You have no idea what we all face working anywhere in this country... What, you think the PNW is the only place where we face production challenges in risky trees??? Get a grip chompy...

Glad to hear the climber is making a good recovery!


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Geez, what a dirt bag! Seen guys around here that will free climb all the way to their TIP, Climbing line clipped to the back of the saddle and no lanyard. Also seen them foot lock 10ft away from the trunk on a branch that has nothing below to catch the line if the branch breaks!
> Live chicken,dead dummy, gonna use that!



Guess I forgot to mention he fell 20' and had a permanent limp:monkey: I suppose he was a bit older school but heck they had buckstraps in his day a 50 dollar or even homemade lanyard may have saved him from the limp! I can't afford to get hurt I know it could happen but I am real careful.


----------



## senechal (Dec 22, 2010)

tree md said:


> What, you think the PNW is the only place where we face production challenges in risky trees??? Get a grip chompy...



Get a grip on context. I don't want your charity.


----------



## tree md (Dec 22, 2010)

senechal said:


> Get a grip on context. I don't want your charity.



LOL, I was Merry Christmasing last night and may have had a beer or two... No offense. 

BTW, I have much respect for the guys who climb the big PNW trees everyday... Tough job for sure.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

tree md said:


> LOL, I was Merry Christmasing last night and may have had a beer or two... No offense.
> 
> BTW, I have much respect for the guys who climb the big PNW trees everyday... Tough job for sure.



Lol nah just means five trees instead of eight lol.


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 22, 2010)

tree md said:


> LOL, I was Merry Christmasing last night and may have had a beer or two... No offense.
> 
> BTW, I have much respect for the guys who climb the big PNW trees everyday... Tough job for sure.



Old Scrooge is getting in the Christmas spirit. Once the booze wears off you start realize that you might be a bit of a d bag. You, OD and tree vet produce half the negative posts on this site and that ain't much to be proud of. Hope the new year brings you all wealth, little more work and a better attitude. 
I know its hard to conceive but these trees present a unique challenge that only guys in the pnw can relate too. Until you have experienced it first hand just read and learn, leave the comments to the guys with the experience.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Old Scrooge is getting in the Christmas spirit. Once the booze wears off you start realize that you might be a bit of a d bag. You, OD and tree vet produce half the negative posts on this site and that ain't much to be proud of. Hope the new year brings you all wealth, little more work and a better attitude.
> I know its hard to conceive but these trees present a unique challenge that only guys in the pnw can relate too. Until you have experienced it first hand just read and learn, leave the comments to the guys with the experience.



Lmfao what evea:monkey:


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 22, 2010)

Glad I wasn't mentioned in that crowd!!! Whew!
Jeff


----------



## tree md (Dec 22, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Old Scrooge is getting in the Christmas spirit. Once the booze wears off you start realize that you might be a bit of a d bag. You, OD and tree vet produce half the negative posts on this site and that ain't much to be proud of. Hope the new year brings you all wealth, little more work and a better attitude.
> I know its hard to conceive but these trees present a unique challenge that only guys in the pnw can relate too. Until you have experienced it first hand just read and learn, leave the comments to the guys with the experience.



LOL, I don't think I've ever seen you make a post that was not derogatory or negative...

Merry Christmas!


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lmfao what evea:monkey:



Rope, I thought you were a backwoods Arkansas tree hillbilly in his mid fifty's, not a fifteen year old Californian valley girl. What evea LOL,OMG, ROFL.
All jokes aside you all make this site great, just lighten up on the personal negativity.


----------



## ropensaddle (Dec 22, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Rope, I thought you were a backwoods Arkansas tree hillbilly in his mid fifty's, not a fifteen year old Californian valley girl. What evea LOL,OMG, ROFL.
> All jokes aside you all make this site great, just lighten up on the personal negativity.



Like , sure tell ya what big guy come down hea to Arkansas I let you peek under my dress:love1:


----------



## mr. holden wood (Dec 22, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Like , sure tell ya what big guy come down hea to Arkansas I let you peek under my dress:love1:



Good stuff fo sure, personally I'm ready to mix my trash talking, ego filled posts with more enlightenment and positive remarks. Maybe it's because it's almost Christmas or the up coming new year, but honestly its probably the whiskey egg nog. I thought my my sarcastic posts were funny and not offensive but perhaps I was wrong.
This was a great post and something I deal with on a daily basis, production versus safety. If the former becomes more crucial tragedy ensues. Hope other guys in this region chime in, I would like to hear their input. 
I noticed all the the post regarding the arborist exam rope. If you need any advice, I took the test a few months back and have some good study aids that I picked up from fellow arbs, best of luck


----------



## jefflovstrom (Dec 22, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> Good stuff fo sure, personally I'm ready to mix my trash talking, ego filled posts with more enlightenment and positive remarks.



Thought you already have been, but, go ahead again. Don't forget you 'man-suit'. Don't want you to cry!! :hmm3grin2orange:
Jeff


----------



## treeslayer (Dec 22, 2010)

mr. holden wood said:


> *You, OD and tree vet* produce half the negative posts on this site and that ain't much to be proud of. Hope the new year brings you all wealth, little more work and a better attitude.
> I know its hard to conceive but these trees present a unique challenge that only guys in the pnw can relate too. Until you have experienced it first hand just read and learn, leave the comments to the guys with the experience.




I know those 3 guys, who the #### are you?


----------

