# class "c" feller



## Ryan Willock (Sep 13, 2002)

what is a class "c" feller??? how do you become one


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## logcutter429 (Sep 14, 2002)

Never heard of one , most of us comes from the school of hard knocks.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 14, 2002)

righto then rbtree any thoughts?


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 14, 2002)

That class "C" stuff must be out west or something cause I have never heard of it either,but I do know what it takes to become one some good old fashion expierence in the woods with some tree's and a chainsaw...Don't worry about any class c crap unless you really have too for some odd reason,if you do find out let us all know....

Later Rob.......


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 14, 2002)

thanks rob, i would like to get into felling but everyone around here seems to have gone mechinized i would prefere to do it the old way


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 14, 2002)

I have mechanical felling equipment also,but thats not all I use I only use the Hydro Ax on stuff up to 20" because thats how big the shear on it is so pretty much anything over 20" I use a chainsaw for.You know it really depends on the job on what you have or need to use for equipment I mean you don't want to be doing a 20 or 30 acre clear cut with just a chainsaw and skidder thats when you need to go with the mechanical equipment ya know..Usually the smallest jobs I do with my buncher are about 5 acres anything under that is all saw,it's not worth the time and money to run it for anything less than that..

Later Rob..


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## logcutter429 (Sep 14, 2002)

*class"c" feller*

Might be an out west thing i have'nt been out ther in 8 or 9 years now, might have something to do with all the classes were going to now,everybody out here is mechinized too, just a few hard core loggers who don't want to spend acouple millon dollars just to log, we stay in bigger timber because of it too, hang in ther Ryan you'll make it.


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## bwalker (Sep 14, 2002)

what do you guys think of machines? Seems most of the guys have went machine crazy in my area. It also seesm like they are working more and harvesting more for less money. The guy I am going to be working for has a skidder, a couple of saws and thats it. He works less and seems to do as good as they guys with all of the new equipment.


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 14, 2002)

I only like machines for the big jobs 10acres +,I have two grapple skidders,my Hydro Ax buncher,and a Morbark chiparvestor,and of course my Kenworth log truck,and about ten saws mostly Stihl and 2 Husky's.Machines have thier downfalls like when they break of course they cost some hard earned green.I definetly don't have a million dollar business I probally have 150,000 worth of equipment but it's all paid for already so now it's just keep it all operating.I know a few guy's around here that do everything with a machine and don't use a saw exceopt for limbing maybe if they don't use a slasher.I don't know it all has it's place in the business,and it also depends on the size jobs you do,you don't want all this equip if all you do is house lot's or other small jobs.The only reason I have this stuff is because I do alot of clear cutting in 20 acres +,it take's a few guy's with saws to that without a feller buncher.

Later Rob...


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## JimL (Sep 14, 2002)

I got 7 or 8 066's, JD cable skidder, an a knuckleboom. Place that buys the logs hauls them.

I can think of a good 15 loggers around here that dont use anything but saws an a skidder.


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## Nickrosis (Sep 14, 2002)

Ryan, apparently the class "c" feller thing isn't very popular. Here are some ways that you can reach more standardized certifications.

In the Midwest, we use a system operated by the Forest Industry Safety Training Alliance which is spreading nationwide. They have classes titled FISTA 1-4. I've accomplished 1 & 2 and will take Level 3 in November.

More nationally, go with GOL, of which I've taken the first level. That is geared towards loggers.

In the arborist industry, ArborMaster classes are widely accepted for felling. The classes do not have the depth of FISTA because it's only 2 levels, as I recall.

Dent is also very well recognized, but I'm not the person to ask about him.

Nickrosis


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## bwalker (Sep 15, 2002)

Magnum, Thats alot of equipment for only 150,000.
Nick Are you aware of any of the courses you menbtioned being offered in upper Mi? How about the appelton/greenbay area?


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 15, 2002)

Stihl, i don't see how you could clear that kind of land by yourself w/out equipment in any reasonable amount of time. Nick, do you have to have that kind of certification out west??? do ya'll think $500 hundred is reasonable for a 066??? just wondering . im going to have to save my $$$ to get one. just put new tires under my pickup


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## rbtree (Sep 15, 2002)

ryan, 

ask fsburt, he is certified, I think. David, the guy that felled that big fir for me, was C certified by the forest service in California back in 95. He was just over at the house looking at my pics, and i forgot to ask him to explain the procedures. Personally, I've been involved in residential work for most of my career, so have no woods experience.

You have had lots of good answers to your questions. It takes years to work up to being a feller for a western outfit. First they start you out as a choker setter, then you can work up. Out here, til Bush shot off his mouth, there has been much less logging since the late 80's, which equals lots of out of work loggers. 

The newer 066's, with comp. release, likely have a single port muffler, so their power is down quite a bit from my dual port older units. Also, recently, Stihl has reduced their published pwr specs even more. To meet EPA standards, they have made their mufflers even more restrictive. Shame, but no problem, just open em way up and gain back the lost power and then some. 400-500 is a good price for an 066 in good condition. Be sure to remove the muffler and check for any scoring.


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 15, 2002)

bwalker,

Your right it is alot of equipment for 150,000,but that's what you get when you travel the US to the big equipment auctions you can usuall find stuff fairly cheap.Probally spent 15,000 just to haul everything back to NH alone.The JD 648 G is a '98,the 748G is a 01',the chipper is a '94,buncher is a '93,and my log truck is a '99,the truck was just a cab and chassis I had to set it up,the 748 needed all new tires and chains,I spent some money just on getting them to operate daily,so really it's not that much equipment for the money.


Ryan,

Your right as well I could not finish those jobs in a timely matter if I did'nt have my equipment,If all I had was a saw and skidder it would take at least two months to do all that.


Later Rob..


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 15, 2002)

i'd love to find a small op and observe for a day or two if they would allow it how long does is take you to clear your average 20 arce tract???


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 15, 2002)

Usually a well wooded 20 acre parcel will take me about a month thats doing everything felling,hauling,chipping,and on occasion removing stumps and hauling them away as well.It really depends on how much wood there is on the parcel sometimes I can get it done in 2 weeks,but I work 7 days a week 5:30am-6 or 7pm depending on daylight,and of course I haul the real heavy loads to the mill at night that way you have a better chance of not seeing one of the TRUCK NAZI'S and getting fined for being overloaded.To bad you were'nt closer by I'd have you come with me to my next job and help out...

Later Rob..


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 15, 2002)

when ya start'n it??? any place to stay up that way, ie. motel, boarding house


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 15, 2002)

I'll be starting a selective cut for a landowner in Northern NH in a few weeks I think it's around the 5 of October,lot's of Pine to be cut nice easy cuttin wood.I'm sure I can find a place for ya if you really want to try it out for a couple weeks.I'll let you know when I get all the details.

Later Rob..

Where in NC are you located ??


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 15, 2002)

i'm in chapel hill, home of the tree huggers, lol most irriatating people, don't even want the dead ones cut love to come have to check my work schedual though anything big enough to give me an excuse to bring my 066??


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 15, 2002)

Oh yeah there's definetly stuff big enough to bring your 066,I'll have my 064AV w/36" on it ,and my new 385XP w/32" on it as well,so if you want you could bring it.

Tree huggers do SUCK......
I chased one off one of my jobs once with my Hydro Axyou should of seen him runnin!!!!Funniest thing I saw that whole day...

Later Rob..

Chapel Hill in which county Orange or Madison either way it's at least a 800mile trip to where I'am at,thats a long ride.I just came back for Cedar Falls Iowa a few weeks ago that was a 1300 mile trip drove straight in 22hrs man was I tired when I got there..Just thought I'd let ya know what you were in for...


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 15, 2002)

orange county, 800 mi... and??? i drove 1,200 mi to main just to shoot a bear


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## swampwhiteoak (Sep 16, 2002)

Class A,B,+C are forest service designations. I'm not an employee so I couldn't tell you what they mean in the normal course of work.

However they are used in wildland firefighting to designate qualifications;
A=brush clearer and/or swamper, can cut <8" dbh
B=up to 24"dbh
C=over 24"dbh

Should be noted that a faller on a fire usually spends his time cutting dangerous snags so line can be built. That 24" tree might not have much holding wood. A class C faller is probably the most dangerous job on a fire.

You get qualified by taking a 3 day class, S212. Just taking the class and showing some proficiency will get you the A rating. Being good will get you a B rating. C ratings are hard to come by because not many people are qualified to give that certification. And I believe you have to requalify every 2 years.


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 16, 2002)

cool, i was wondering what exactly it was, saw rbtree talking about it and got curios. started sufing the net trying to find out more about to see what it was but couldn't find anything


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 16, 2002)

rob what size bar would you run on an 066 for what you do??? i was thinking 24-28" bar w/skip chain...any thoughts


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Sep 16, 2002)

Ryan I would have to say at least a 28" w/skip chain if not a 32"..


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 16, 2002)

how big are the trees you usualy cut???


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## Nickrosis (Sep 18, 2002)

FISTA offers classes in Wisconsin and Northern Michigan, I believe. Their website is: http://hosting.newnorth.net/fista


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## Ryan Willock (Sep 18, 2002)

thanks nick, cool site


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## Jacob J. (Oct 12, 2002)

Howdy-

I'd like to expand on swampwhiteoak's explanation of the "C" felling designation. It is indeed a U.S. Forest Service certification, and the C rating is very hard to come by. The agency sends one of their experienced chainsaw safety instructors out with a knowledgable private industry person ( usually the "Bullbuck" or the woods boss from a local logging company ). Both individuals watch you fall and buck a variety of trees and already downed logs, including a big blowdown. Then both give you an evaluation and they recommend you for the cert. Then it is sent to a local office where an agency bigwig gives their thumbs up. The Bureau Of Land Management, National Parks Service, Bureau of Reclamation, and many State and local governments use this same system. The S-212 "Wildfire powersaw" class is mostly designed for forest fire fighting and covers many of the fireline safety practices needed for brushing, falling, and bucking wood that is on fire or has been burned, which is a whole different ballgame.


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## Ryan Willock (Oct 12, 2002)

thanks jacob, do ya'll still fell any old growth on a regular basis??? how hard is it to get a job felling and what can you expect for starting pay???


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## Jacob J. (Oct 16, 2002)

Howdy Ryan-

Most west coast logging outfits expect a timber faller to have some experience working on a logging crew first ( I think this was mentioned in a previous post ) so usually a guy has to spend a couple years on rigging crews working "the brush" before they put him to work cutting. That way you'll have a handle on where the wood is best placed for removal and you'll have an idea where the "Lanes" or skidding routes will be. 

All of the logging shows out west here are mostly "High Lead", meaning that they use a tower yarder with a rolling carriage on a "skyline" and a "haulback" which carries all your chokers for looping wood. So basically a faller has to know how this all works before they enter the side to start falling.

Not much old growth anymore here, since the federal work is pretty much shut down, but hopefully Bush's plan will open the doors to some federal work, because some of it really does need to be done. 

As far as pay goes, a starting cutter can expect to make a day rate. A larger outfit will start you out around 200 a day for 6-7 hours worth of cutting, and they'll start you in a younger, smaller stand of timber until you get your skills and stamina built up. Experienced cutters cut for scale, or board footage, and that's the best way to go. Most big outfits here will pay you at least $11.00 per thousand board feet, especially if you're using your own hydraulic jacks. It's fairly easy to cut around 25,000 board feet in just over 6 hours, depending on the type of ground you're working. That's with decent second growth averaging 30" butts. 

My dad cut timber in Alaska in the late 70's and was averaging $600.00 a day cutting giant Sitka Spruce and Yellow Cedar. He ran McCulloch Pro 125s with 60" bars and Silvey 160 ton tree jacks ( triple RAMs ). 

One more thing about western falling-
It's good to find yourself a partner, a buddy who's experienced and wants to go to work as a team for cutting. The biggest outfits hire cutters in "sticks", or teams of two, that way a guy isn't by himself in case he gets injured. Most guys work as contractors and they'll have from two to 14 guys working as a small crew. Each guy keeps track of his own scale and writes his own scale tickets and turns them into the "bullbuck" or cutting boss. The "bullbuck" works out of the "Bull shack" where they discuss a lot of "bull shoot".


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## Ryan Willock (Oct 16, 2002)

thats pretty cool, how would some one like me go about contacting a company for a job??? where would i look, and would they recognize felling experiance from eastern logging???


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## Jacob J. (Oct 17, 2002)

Howdy Ryan-

A good job search engine like 

http://www.jobs.state.ak.us/

There's openings in Alaska right now for day rate cutters to live on the job and use the company's equipment. 

or 

http://www.hr.das.state.or.us/jobs/

is a good place to start. There's also several big west coast outfits right now looking for cutters. Columbia helicopters has a standing ad on Madsen's website: http://www.madsens1.com

click on "logger's listings". 
A big outfit near me is also looking for cutters: Huffman-Wright, their phone is: 541-839-4251 

they'll give you the name and number of the cutting boss. 

All of these outfits will recognize eastern cutting experience if you are familiar with different types of face cuts ( conventional, Humboldt, block-out style Humboldt, ultra-wide ) and if you're fast with a spencer tape cutting log lengths. The best thing to outline is that you're familiar with working on slopes and placing wood on contours without breaking it.


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## Ryan Willock (Oct 17, 2002)

thanks Jacob, when i get a little more experinance with the tape i'll start looking. i'm not to fast with a tape right now, but i am pretty good at putting stuff down where its supposed to go just good enough to get a promotion to crew leader today


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## StIhL MaGnUm (Oct 18, 2002)

Come on now Ryan you need to pick up the pace when using the Spencer and doing all the bucking if your not fast with the tape that really kills production..Keep on working on it cause when you come up here you'll be needing it alot and I sure don't want someone who cant keep up.....If I did I would hire my old man  

later Rob....


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## Ryan Willock (Oct 19, 2002)

hey now!!! the boss man saw measures and he's pretty quick too i don't do enough of it to pick up any speed


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