# Angle at which to sharpen a chain



## atp_08 (Nov 8, 2016)

Hello, pretty new to chainsaws and cutting. Recently ive been cutting some trees on my land and ive been trying to sharpen the chains myself. I have the correct chain file and a file guide. But my question is, on the guide it has different angle degrees 30,25,20,15,etc. How do I determine which degree to use? Ive searched rhe packages that the chains came in and there is no info, it just tells me which size file to use. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

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## Ozhoo (Nov 8, 2016)

Welcome to AS. Take a gander at this chart and see if it makes any sense... post your questions.


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## atp_08 (Nov 8, 2016)

Is that specific to just oregon chains? And how do i determine depth gauge? Does it have something to do with the number on the chain? 

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## Efisher26 (Nov 8, 2016)

Search hand filing, there's a couple good threads


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Just a home owner that likes the older better made machines

Craftsman 3.7
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## CR888 (Nov 8, 2016)

30° top plate hold the file flat and 0.20" depth gauge. Keep it simple and practice technique keeping the file moving in a straight line.


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## Homelitexl903 (Nov 8, 2016)

I don't know much compared to the experts on this wonderful forum but your file guide should match an angle line ontop of your Oregon chain. I don't think depth gauge has anything to do with number on chain more with how many files have been done and setting rakers to match. Go easy on this guy fellas. I still suck at hand files compared to experts but get pretty close to perfection from the help of this site...I think, my chips are better than dust.


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## pioneerguy600 (Nov 8, 2016)

I have been hand filing chains since around 1965 and still enjoy doing them to this day. The top plate angle is kind of subjective to the species of wood and the power of the saw being used along with the type of climate one is cutting in. If there is such a thing the most common top plate angle is around 30 degrees, this is a good starting place for new filers, keeping the cutter size and shape is more important than the actual angle chosen. The relationship between the depth gauges and the cutter teeth is important also, for smooth cutting the depth gauges are best kept between .025 to .030 lower than the cutters, there are simple gauges available for checking these measurements. Once a person advances at hand filing for different types of wood and between frozen winter cutting and milder weather cutting the chain can be filed at different angles to better meet those conditions. Start out keeping it simple and branch out later after you have mastered keeping a chain sharp and consistent.


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## lambs (Nov 8, 2016)

All good advice to which I might add that it is a good idea to get a short length of new chain to keep on your bench as a reference for the amount of hook you are looking for.

I keep one handy to make certain I'm grinding / filing them correctly.


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## Workin'Rabbit (Nov 9, 2016)

My big tip.... Dont let it bother you when you mess up a chain or two 

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## Philbert (Nov 9, 2016)

atp_08 said:


> How do I determine which degree to use?





atp_08 said:


> Is that specific to just oregon chains? And how do i determine depth gauge? Does it have something to do with the number on the chain?



Welcome to A.S.!

1. For most chains, the manufacturer's recommended filing angles, depth gauge settings, etc., are printed on the boxes that the chains came in, on a piece of paper packed with the chains, or are posted on the manufacturer's website. The numbers stamped on the chains _sometimes_ specify these settings, but _usually_ refer to the manufacturer's model number for that chain. For example, the chart that Ozhoo posted above, shows numbers stamped on Oregon drive links. Figure out if the chain you have is made by STIHL, Oregon, Carlton, Archer (stamped on the chain), or TriLink ('000'), then look for their website. Some chains do not identify the manufacturer, or have the name of the saw company stamped on them.

2. If you don't know, or cannot figure out which chain you have, you can use the 'default' angles that most shops will use when sharpening chains that customers bring in: 30° / 60° / 0°, with a 0.025" depth gauge offset. File sizes are _usually_ 5/32" for 1/4 inch and 3/8 low profile pitch chains; 3/16" for .325 pitch chains; and 7/32" for full size 3/8 pitch chains.

3. One of the advantages of filing / sharpening your own chains is that you can do what you want. E.g., you may find that different angles (e.g. 25° or 35°) work better for certain species of wood, or even different saws, due to their power output. If you don't know, start with the default. If you want to experiment, try changing some of the specs (angles, depth gauge settings, file diameter, etc.) and see if it makes a difference in _your_ cutting, with _your_ saws, and the wood _you_ cut. This is easiest if you have a few chains, sharpened differently, that you can swap out and try side-by-side. Some guys even keep different chains for different types of wood or cutting (e.g. hard wood, soft wood, frozen wood, . . . ).

Good luck, and don't forget to report back!

Philbert


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## Dave27483 (Nov 9, 2016)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I have been hand filing chains since around 1965 and still enjoy doing them to this day. The top plate angle is kind of subjective to the species of wood and the power of the saw being used along with the type of climate one is cutting in. If there is such a thing the most common top plate angle is around 30 degrees, this is a good starting place for new filers, keeping the cutter size and shape is more important than the actual angle chosen. The relationship between the depth gauges and the cutter teeth is important also, for smooth cutting the depth gauges are best kept between .025 to .030 lower than the cutters, there are simple gauges available for checking these measurements. Once a person advances at hand filing for different types of wood and between frozen winter cutting and milder weather cutting the chain can be filed at different angles to better meet those conditions. Start out keeping it simple and branch out later after you have mastered keeping a chain sharp and consistent.


Great advice, 
I've always sharpened at 30 degrees, but what type of affect would sharpening my 3/8 chain to say 25 or 35 degrees have on cutting speed or longevity of the sharp edge?


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 9, 2016)

I sharpen quite a few chains a week, I use 30* for most chains. 35* for harvester (though I've done 30* too, doesn't seem to make much difference), 10* for ripping chains.


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## pioneerguy600 (Nov 9, 2016)

Dave27483 said:


> Great advice,
> I've always sharpened at 30 degrees, but what type of affect would sharpening my 3/8 chain to say 25 or 35 degrees have on cutting speed or longevity of the sharp edge?


 
We/I find that hardwood will dull the chain faster than softwood and that a little less angle will help the chain stay sharper longer, good for frozen wood also. The steeper angle will cut faster but dull sooner so its a trade off really. We do find the steeper angles to cut softwood faster but it will dull faster if used for de limbing those softwood trees, using a dedicated felling saw with steeper angle chain works well, use other saws for de limbing.


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## atp_08 (Nov 9, 2016)

Thanks for the advice guys. Ive been sticking to the 30° and its been working well. Now i just gotta figure out what im doing wrong when sharpening as it always cuts to the right after

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## Philbert (Nov 9, 2016)

atp_08 said:


> Now i just gotta figure out what im doing wrong when sharpening as it always cuts to the right after


Most guys are 'stronger' hand filing on the Right or Left sides. So even if they '_take the same number of strokes_' on each side, they tend to take off more on one or the other, leaving the cutters at different angles; at different lengths; or with the depth gauges higher on one side than the other.

Hold a few Right and Left cutters 'back-to-back' and see if they are identical/symmetrical. If you see a difference, you know what to work on.




Philbert


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## pioneerguy600 (Nov 9, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Most guys are 'stronger' hand filing on the Right or Left sides. So even if they '_take the same number of strokes_' on each side, they tend to take off more on one or the other, leaving the cutters at different angles; at different lengths; or with the depth gauges higher on one side than the other.
> 
> Hold a few Right and Left cutters 'back-to-back' and see if they are identical/symmetrical. If you see a difference, you know what to work on.
> 
> ...



You are right on there, very few people can file accurately, it takes time to learn and one must watch/concentrate on what the file is doing to the metal. Good lighting and sharp eyesight is a must, you have to watch to see how much and where the file is removing metal. I use a couple of cheap calipers for setting the size of the cutters, check them one at a time as I file each one, that keeps them within a couple of thousands size wise of each other. The angle is more difficult to stay consistent with but as long as they are close the chain will cut fairly straight and fast.


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## Philbert (Nov 9, 2016)

I keep saying, "_It's __not__ the file or grinder that sharpens the chain - it's the __user_" The tool does not do it by itself. Helps to stop and inspect each tooth as you sharpen (whatever tool you use). Good lighting helps.

Philbert


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## Wood Doctor (Nov 9, 2016)

Philbert said:


> Most guys are 'stronger' hand filing on the Right or Left sides. So even if they '_take the same number of strokes_' on each side, they tend to take off more on one or the other, leaving the cutters at different angles; at different lengths; or with the depth gauges higher on one side than the other.
> 
> Hold a few Right and Left cutters 'back-to-back' and see if they are identical/symmetrical. If you see a difference, you know what to work on.
> 
> ...


It never ceases to amaze me at how many chains I have seen with one side of the cutters shorter than the other. To me, that means the saw has to be pulling to one side and creating angular or curved cuts. The side with the smaller teeth have to be following the other side unless the rakers are dropped further. I suppose the bar's rails could be out of whack also.

This past summer I saw this several times with a tree trimmer's saw chains. He always cut the same way when close to the ground as he shaved the stumps. The right side of his chains were getting beat up so he file sharpened that side twice as often. His bar's rails were also worn more on the right side. Eventually it was impossible for him to make a typical square bucking cut.


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## rd35 (Nov 10, 2016)

Philbert mentioned lighting and I have to agree. I have installed a big task light at my bench that supplements the light on my grinder. Makes a big difference. Especially at my age with my eyesight getting worse every day! Wood Doctor mentioned about cutters being different lengths from one side to the other. At one point in time I was told that it really doesn't affect the cut. But now that I have been sharpening chains for several years I have become convinced that it does! By having the same cutter length on both sides, it makes the chain balanced (left-to-right) and also greatly speeds up the process for setting depth gauges. Also, to me, it just "looks right" when both sides match.


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 10, 2016)

Most would be filers file to much metal, meaning too many strokes on a wood dull chain. Three strokes with a sharp file is all it takes. It's much like making perfect notes on a violin.
You can learn more in 5 minutes watching someone else do it than you could in 5 weeks on your own.
It's really quite easy, it just takes a steady hand and a clear understanding of what should be accomplished.
No exaggerated hook or high gullets.


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## pioneerguy600 (Nov 11, 2016)

Hey John, what is that Northern black spruce like for cutting? I would think the growth rings are closer together and that the wood would be more fibrous and tougher that far North.


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## timg1234562 (Mar 18, 2020)

atp_08 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. Ive been sticking to the 30° and its been working well. Now i just gotta figure out what im doing wrong when sharpening as it always cuts to the right after
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


You can use a caliper or even an adjustable wrench to check for uniform tooth length. I think this is important.


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## Ted Jenkins (Mar 18, 2020)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I have been hand filing chains since around 1965 and still enjoy doing them to this day. The top plate angle is kind of subjective to the species of wood and the power of the saw being used along with the type of climate one is cutting in. If there is such a thing the most common top plate angle is around 30 degrees, this is a good starting place for new filers, keeping the cutter size and shape is more important than the actual angle chosen. The relationship between the depth gauges and the cutter teeth is important also, for smooth cutting the depth gauges are best kept between .025 to .030 lower than the cutters, there are simple gauges available for checking these measurements. Once a person advances at hand filing for different types of wood and between frozen winter cutting and milder weather cutting the chain can be filed at different angles to better meet those conditions. Start out keeping it simple and branch out later after you have mastered keeping a chain sharp and consistent.



Pioneer has put it really well for beginners to understand what is ahead of them. A learning curve for sure, but well worth the effort. Those that sharpen with a grinder will follow a chart and get plenty of wood cut, but not efficiently. Those that cut a few cords a year will not learn the process and rely on ground chains for most part. Those that do this for a living will more likely pull out their files and go back to cutting. Thanks


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## NeSurfcaster (Mar 18, 2020)

Buy a raker gauge and you never need to get cutters the same length again. You could damn near file/grind one side back to the line and leave the other side untouched and still cut straight. The husky depth gauge tool works great, just doesn't last forever. As long as each tooth is taking the same size bite of wood it will cut straight.


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## KASH (Mar 19, 2020)

Pioneer guy here in NorthWestern Ontario when you drive down the highway and look at a swampy patch on the side of the road you see real small scraggly spruce maybe 20 to an acre. .We call these Stag spruce some are hundreds of years old and as you say the growth rings are very tight together they are very hard to cut.I think it is because of the poor nutrients and cold temps of these bogs.
Kash


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## pioneerguy600 (Mar 19, 2020)

KASH said:


> Pioneer guy here in NorthWestern Ontario when you drive down the highway and look at a swampy patch on the side of the road you see real small scraggly spruce maybe 20 to an acre. .We call these Stag spruce some are hundreds of years old and as you say the growth rings are very tight together they are very hard to cut.I think it is because of the poor nutrients and cold temps of these bogs.
> Kash


Also out in in the Yukon and Alaska the black spruce that grows in the low bogs are small scruffy tough as nails wood trees, especially those growing above perma frost. One could file their chain a bit differently for cutting that type of tree, more like cutting hardwood than the softwood species we have here. Back when I asked John about the toughness of wood out his way I was just hoping he would come back again to enlighten us some more, I have spent time out there in that territory/location but had not cut that species of tree.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...UKEwi3kLK1uaboAhUPTt8KHazZBy4Q7Al6BAgGEBk&biw


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## nixon (Mar 19, 2020)

NeSurfcaster said:


> Buy a raker gauge and you never need to get cutters the same length again. You could damn near file/grind one side back to the line and leave the other side untouched and still cut straight. The husky depth gauge tool works great, just doesn't last forever. As long as each tooth is taking the same size bite of wood it will cut straight.


Makes sense. But , if they are really vary a lot in length , wouldn’t that also affect the kerf of the cut ,causing some vibration problems ? The width of the cutter decreases a good bit as it gets further back .


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## EchoRomeoCharlie (Mar 19, 2020)

Angles are a lot like angles on knives. The 'best' angle depends on what you're doing.

The higher the degree of the angle the 'sharper' the cutter, the less resistance the cutter experiences, but along with that the faster it will dull. If you want longevity, for cutting in dirty or really hard wood, go with less angle. Cutting in softer wood and/or cleaner wood? Sharpen at a steeper angle.

Sharpness does not affect how much wood the cutter takes though. Just how easy it glides through the wood. Depth gauges handle how much wood each cutter takes, therefore a good depth gauge filing guide should be used to make sure all the depth gauges are at the same depth in relation to their respective cutter. Contrary to popular belief, each tooth does NOT have to be the same length and you do NOT have to take the same strokes on each tooth or file all cutters to the shortest one. As long as your depth gauges are filed properly, length of cutter isn't a factor in cutting straight. The more power you have, the lower the depth gauges can be, however, low depth gauges makes for a grabby chain. So again, find a depth you're happy with for your saw/bar length/type of cutting. It might be different for your different saws or even saw/bar setup. 

A hopped up 661 with a 20" bar cutting dirty skidded hardwood logs on a landing should have a lot different chain geometry than a 461 with a 32" bar falling redwoods all day.


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## Philbert (Mar 19, 2020)

nixon said:


> Makes sense. But , if they are really vary a lot in length , wouldn’t that also affect the kerf of the cut ,causing some vibration problems ? The width of the cutter decreases a good bit as it gets further back .


Yes.

Philbert


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## KASH (Mar 19, 2020)

EchoRomeo your post is the most accurate post on chain filing I have read.Good job.
Kash


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## Spottedgum (Aug 3, 2020)

pioneerguy600 said:


> I have been hand filing chains since around 1965 and still enjoy doing them to this day. The top plate angle is kind of subjective to the species of wood and the power of the saw being used along with the type of climate one is cutting in. If there is such a thing the most common top plate angle is around 30 degrees, this is a good starting place for new filers, keeping the cutter size and shape is more important than the actual angle chosen. The relationship between the depth gauges and the cutter teeth is important also, for smooth cutting the depth gauges are best kept between .025 to .030 lower than the cutters, there are simple gauges available for checking these measurements. Once a person advances at hand filing for different types of wood and between frozen winter cutting and milder weather cutting the chain can be filed at different angles to better meet those conditions. Start out keeping it simple and branch out later after you have mastered keeping a chain sharp and consistent.


It's nice to read your comments Pioneerguy.
In Australia we have all the Northern hemisphere softwood saw equipment but most of our timber is hardwood.
One of our species that is really good for firewood is called "IRONBARK" ........ for good reason. Makes pine look like styrofoam, but it burns like black coal.
Haven't been cutting as long as you - since mid 70's and about 20 years professionally till 2017 retirement.
Back in the 90's I noticed that my Husky 372xp 24" couldn't cut as well as it's smaller 350 18" brother. Plus it would burn out chains so much faster than the 350.
The 372xp was running 3/8 chain and the 350 running "inferior" 3.25 pitch, so no way should it have been better. It bugged me enough to start playing with variables.
Most obvious variable was the 15 deg sharpening angle on the 372xp, but the real killer in seasoned hardwoods is chain speed....... Fast = blunt.
To cut to the bottom line, the 372xp was "ok" on green hardwoods, but more pain than it was worth no matter what angles I tried.
BUT
The 350 lower speed and torque, came into it's own. The trick was to get the chain sharpened to take advantage of it.
The 3.25 pitch chain, running narrower kerf, combined with 30 deg sharpened semi chisel at 8deg offset, rakes at 30 thou and sharpened with a 3/16 file instead of a 5/32 to get an nice slow arc 45deg hook edge = wow.
The odd bit it took a while to learn, was that by making the chain cut deeper, meant it made less passes for the same cut speed, which improved the time between sharpens. This is the exact opposite of what you guys try to do with softwoods.
I love being able to stand next to a guy with his brand new 80cc saw, and use my old husky to tear through logs the same speed or quicker for the first 10 cuts, then watch him struggle to keep up as his chain dulls to the point of smoking while I keep cutting through 2 fuels.
It's a "David and Golliath" thing. Very pleasing.


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## pioneerguy600 (Aug 3, 2020)

Spottedgum said:


> It's nice to read your comments Pioneerguy.
> In Australia we have all the Northern hemisphere softwood saw equipment but most of our timber is hardwood.
> One of our species that is really good for firewood is called "IRONBARK" ........ for good reason. Makes pine look like styrofoam, but it burns like black coal.
> Haven't been cutting as long as you - since mid 70's and about 20 years professionally till 2017 retirement.
> ...


 You Sir make very good sense, easy to see from what you post that through trying different things while actually cutting in your conditions has improved cutting speed and chain longevity in those conditions. As a very young fella growing up in local lumber camps I had only a handful of things to occupy me, repairing chainsaws and filing chains were one of the things for me to do and learn from, possibly set me up for what I followed for the rest of my working years. The older torque saws could hold an edge for most of a days cutting back then, .404 chipper was the prevalent chain of the time set up differently for either hardwood or softwood and changed up again for winter cutting.


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## Spottedgum (Aug 8, 2020)

Thanks for your kind comments Pioneerguy. 
Manufacturers (rightly) try to make something that will work for all situations and appeal to the majority of buyers. 
So when you are designing saws or chain for green softwood, that will also cut seasoned hardwood in 40 deg C temps and frozen logs at minus 20degC (?) and sometimes get used for ripping (longgrain) it's all a really big compromise............. especially when you have to consider kickback for inexperienced operators..... and still be able to sell your product competitively.
For fellas with your skills and experience, you can reduce the compromise by knowing what you plan to cut. 
Ever cut palm trees ??


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## cranman1951 (Aug 8, 2020)

Spottedgum said:


> It's nice to read your comments Pioneerguy.
> In Australia we have all the Northern hemisphere softwood saw equipment but most of our timber is hardwood.
> One of our species that is really good for firewood is called "IRONBARK" ........ for good reason. Makes pine look like styrofoam, but it burns like black coal.
> Haven't been cutting as long as you - since mid 70's and about 20 years professionally till 2017 retirement.
> ...


I had a similar experience recently....I sold a 141 Husky ( poulan) to a customer with little cutting experience, and he later called to see if I would come to his house to cut a dead tree, and take my saw back...I showed up with a 350 and a 262 with 3/8 chain and as soon as I put the bar to the wood, it dulled. After an hour of sharpening and getting nowhere, I picked up the 141 with 16 inch bar and .325 chain, and cut easily through the petrified oak....great learning experience......


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## sean donato (Aug 8, 2020)

cranman1951 said:


> I had a similar experience recently....I sold a 141 Husky ( poulan) to a customer with little cutting experience, and he later called to see if I would come to his house to cut a dead tree, and take my saw back...I showed up with a 350 and a 262 with 3/8 chain and as soon as I put the bar to the wood, it dulled. After an hour of sharpening and getting nowhere, I picked up the 141 with 16 inch bar and .325 chain, and cut easily through the petrified oak....great learning experience......


This is interesting. I admittedly dont have the cutting experience as some of you guys, but cut quite a bit, even help a logger friend out from time to time, I've never ran into anything like that. Very interesting indeed.


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