# michigan firewood questions



## glassman (Jan 17, 2010)

We have a lot of firewood available to us, after a section is logged, we can get the tops, and we have friends that need trees taken down (not near their house) I own a pickup truck that will pull 10,000 lbs. a new holland 29 hp tractor and I can borrow a 6 by 10 dump trailer. I am considering eventually purchasing a bigger dump trailer to load my tractor on and take into the woods with a front grapple. I have access to a small wood processor also. Is there a limit on how large a dump trailer can be before you have to get a special license to haul stuff? (or if it would be considered commercial) I was considering an 80" wide by 12' or 14' dump trailer. I may purchase a small wood processor someday that will run off my pto on my tractor. The other problem is the width of the processors, I am getting the exact width next week, I think they are going to be wider than the 80" width of the dump trailer. The guy I am working with heats with wood, and I will keep track of our hours to see if it would be profitable to sell the balance of firewood. I have lots more questions, would love to talk on the telephone (my dime of course) to somebody that has done this before so I wont make a lot of mistakes. The idea was to process the firewood right in the woods, and make dump runs to my friends house, then at the end of the day load everything up and head home. I wouldnt trust leaving any good equipment alone in the woods. Our other option is to just cut to length and put in dump trailer and haul home. I do not like handling the wood more than I have to. Any input would be appreciated. I can leave my e mail address if this site allows that, (dont know) I am not all that great on a computer. I have a LLC (limited liability company) already set up for something else that I could change to firewood related stuff if we ever take it that far. Thank you in advance for any input.


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## Treetom (Jan 17, 2010)

Glassman, You will need a Class A cdl to drive your set up if it gets too heavy, as well as a commercial plate. Also, all business vehicles, such as your truck, require DOT numbers on both sides of the truck in Michigan. You also need a DOT inspection sticker on a business vehicle. The following, from the Michigan CDL study manual may help. You can find it online in a PDF format for more details. 


Who Needs a CDL?
Any resident who intends to operate:
VEHICLES:
• Having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
COMBINATION VEHICLES:
• Towing a trailer or other vehicles with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more with a gross combination
weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.


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## glassman (Jan 17, 2010)

*treetom*

thank you treetom, my tractor weighs 3500 lbs. the processor if I get one eventually is about 1500 lbs. So along with the trailer weight I should be a couple thousand pounds light. I already have a commercial plate on my truck, so I think everything should work out well. I am up near Kalkaska by the way, if your ever up this way, e mail me and stop by my glass shop and say hello.


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## Treetom (Jan 17, 2010)

Thanks for the invite, Glassman. I'll look you up if I ever get up to Kalkaska. In the meantime, I'll keep an eye out for you on AS. Good luck with your firewood business.


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## treeslayer (Jan 18, 2010)

I sent you a PM with my phone #

I have sold firewood commercially since 1977, and have a lot of marketing and logistical experience if you're interested. 

you're headed the right way, once you can start thinking about motion studies in the production phase. then ya just have to sell it in bulk.


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## WSTREE (Jan 27, 2010)

You don't need a cdl. All you need is a chauffeurs license and a health card. And thats only if your driving a big truck over one ton.


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## glassman (Jan 27, 2010)

*wstree*

What do you mean by a health card? To show I have health insurance, or insurance on what I am carrying? Thanks ed


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## Ellistrees (Jan 27, 2010)

*Medical card not a health card*

It is to show you have gotten a current Commercial physical exactly like what is requred for a CDL except you do not have to have the cdl license unless your gvw gross vehicle weight capacity is over 26,000 lbs. It does not matter your actual weight but the weight rating on your truck. This should be in your owners manual. Most 1 ton duallys are 22,500 gvw. Usually it's your 3ton or larger trucks.
With a CDL license you do not have to have the medical card but to get a CDL license you have to have a physical 

Also these physical are only good for 2 years.


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## glassman (Jan 27, 2010)

*Wstree*

My pickup is a 1/2 ton truck, and tractor is 3500 lbs and processor is 1500. Are you saying only the truck has to be a 1 ton, or combined weight of everything I am hauling? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get everything right before I venture into this. Thank you Ellistrees and WSTREE for your help.


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 27, 2010)

I just want to clarify... 

In regards to the trailer...

MI doesnt care whats pulling that trailer or whats on it. If it is rated over 10,000 pounds, you need a class A cdl. This does not apply to Joe Homeowner. But if you are doing it to make money, you need the A. If you have Log plates, all you need is a chauffer endorsement but legally, IIRC that limits you to something like 50 or 150 miles from your place of business.


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 27, 2010)

glassman said:


> What do you mean by a health card? To show I have health insurance, or insurance on what I am carrying? Thanks ed



Its called a "Medical Card."

You need to go to a occupational physician and get a "DOT Physical." I am not sure if your primary physician is able to give a DOT physical.


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 27, 2010)

Ellistrees said:


> With a CDL license you do not have to have the medical card but to get a CDL license you have to have a physical
> 
> Also these physical are only good for 2 years.



In MI you are required to carry your Medical Card on your person. If you get stopped you had better have it when you hand over your liscense.


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## woodchux (Jan 27, 2010)

Along with the medical card you should get 3 warning triangles and a fire extinguisher too...


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 27, 2010)

woodchux said:


> Along with the medical card you should get 3 warning triangles and a fire extinguisher too...



Yep, good call.

And know how to set the triangles up given the road lay out.


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## ms310 (Jan 27, 2010)

*firewood in michigan*

It is not a good time to start a firewood business in michigan, all the unemployed people are cutting the rates big time. Last year i got 195 a cord delivered, this year there is guys doing it for 120 at least down here. My sales are still good at 180 a cord but, I havent gained too many new customers, held onto my old ones with dry wood, and big cords.


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## pdqdl (Jan 27, 2010)

*There is a lot of misinformation in this thread!*

Federal DOT standards are the same for all the states, although individual states can enact additional restrictions.

If your trailer is rated (GVWR) for 10,000 lbs, you will be required to have a Class A CDL. End of story.

If your truck has a GVWR of 26,000 lbs, you will be required to have a Class A CDL. 

If none of the above are true, and you exceed any of the GVW ratings, then you will be getting a huge fine for driving overweight, regardless of the type of drivers license you have.

I am not sure about the non-commercial or agricultural requirements of operating a class A vehicle, but I'll bet you would get the ticket for driving out of class if you did not have one.



_A CDL physical in Kansas City costs $45.00. Call any medical clinic that does "occupational medicine"_


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## WSTREE (Jan 28, 2010)

if your truck is not over 26,000 pounds you do not need a cdl it doesn't matter what you are pulling. if your truck is over 26,000 pounds what you are pulling changes the classification.hope this helps.


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## Ellistrees (Jan 28, 2010)

*Please do not give this guy false information*

If your trailer is rated (GVWR) for 10,000 lbs, you will be required to have a Class A CDL. End of story.

It's not the end of story. I have a lot of experience in this field with drivers with and with out CDL and *DOt regulations does not require* you to have a CDL for pulling a trailer over 10,000 lbs.
You can get a DOT regulations manual at most State license agencies and probably on line. Please look it up.


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## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2010)

Total BS! This is not hard guys. Rather than letting some other numbskull on the internet tell you what you need, read it for yourself. Here! Let me help you out: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm

Each and every time one of my drivers (Non-class A) is pulled over with our Ford F-550 pulling our trailer (over 10,000 GVWR), the driver is issued a ticket for driving a vehicle out of their class , and the truck is parked and the replacement driver BETTER have a Class A. The Missouri Drivers guide clearly states that if you are driving any vehicle towing such a trailer, you are required to have a class A license.

I have paid for too many fines on this exact topic for me to be wrong. Just because some other officer has not been issuing tickets to you guys does not mean that they couldn't write the ticket if they chose to. I use theses tickets as a primary motivation for my guys to get the class A certification to avoid the points on their record. Generally, the judge lets us out of the ticket if the driver shows up waving their newly acquired class A license.

_Do YOU have a class A license? If you do, you would know these facts. I DO, and I have trained a number of employees how to get one. Call it PDQDL's driving school. _

From the first page of the reference cited above:
" Classes of License:

The *Federal standard requires States* to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- *Any *combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds *provided the GVWR* of the *vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds*.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials. "

EVERY STATE IS REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THESE RULES. 

END OF STORY. 
(This means that I am not going to argue the point anymore. If you choose to argue with these verifiable facts...have fun.)


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## Ellistrees (Jan 28, 2010)

*I do and have had a CDL license for last 20 years*

Your truck Combined GVW for a F-550 is over 26,000 that is required a CDL
But a truck like a 350 pulling a 12,000 lb trailer does not need a CDL but does require the medical card.

Pleasse check DOT manual.:greenchainsaw:


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## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2010)

Yes! You must have a C_OMBINED _GVWR greater than 26,000.

BTW, F-550 is NOT over 26,000 GVWR. Rather, it is 17,500 lbs.

The error that is being made here is that the GVWR that the Federal regulations are referring to is the sum of the truck GVWR and the trailer GVWR. I guess if you had a 12,000 lb trailer, and were towing it with a truck that only had a 14,000 GVWR, then you would be OK. Most one tons will come in around 11,000 lbs. So...you might get away with that if everything adds up to less than 26,001.


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## glassman (Jan 28, 2010)

*thank you*

Thats some good info, the 6' by 10' dump trailer that I used last fall to get some personal firewood has a gvwr rating of 7,000 lbs. The 80" by 12' dump trailer that I want to purchase has a gvwr rating of 12,000 lbs. I was planning on driving my tractor with the wood processor hooked up to the rear pto right up on the trailer so I could drive right to the site to process. I know the prices of firewood are all over the place, a buddy of mine that owns a fireplace shop gets 195 a full cord picked up. He doesnt budge on his price because its not worth it to sell it any cheaper to him. He does it as a service to his customers. I dont think he would sell firewood otherwise. I am working on a way that a customer can get a semi load of pulp wood, have me process it, he can split the cost with a neighbor/family member or sell some of it outright and can end up with 20 face cords for themselves for as low as 300 bucks. A lot of people cant afford to buy a semi load, so this would only work with people that can come up with a little over 2 grand to do this. The info I get on here is better than buying a book sometimes. thanks again,,,,glassman


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## glassman (Jan 28, 2010)

*pdqdl*

My truck is a 1/2 ton that is rated at 10,000 lbs, the 80" by 12' dump trailer that I want to purchase has a gvwr rating of 12,000 lbs. My new holland tractor weighs 3500 lbs and the firewood processor weighs 1500 lbs. I called the trailer company and they said I should be ok. I will go to my secretary of state and get the booklet and probably get the cdl regardless. Again thanks for all the input from everyone.


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## pdqdl (Jan 28, 2010)

You will be ok legally, although you should still have a class E license.

I can advise getting a bigger truck if you plan on towing a full 12k around.


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## glassman (Jan 28, 2010)

*pdqdl*

Thanks again for your input. I am going to see a friend that works at secretary of state, talk to her, get any necessary booklets. I will be towing 5,000 lbs plus the weight of the trailer. I have pulled that much weight before from firewood without any problems. I just drive a little slower. I will get whatever is necessary in regards to license. I will let you guys know what they say at sec. of state. Thanks again,,,,glassman


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## CaseyForrest (Jan 28, 2010)

WSTREE said:


> if your truck is not over 26,000 pounds you do not need a cdl it doesn't matter what you are pulling. if your truck is over 26,000 pounds what you are pulling changes the classification.hope this helps.





Ellistrees said:


> If your trailer is rated (GVWR) for 10,000 lbs, you will be required to have a Class A CDL. End of story.
> 
> It's not the end of story. I have a lot of experience in this field with drivers with and with out CDL and *DOt regulations does not require* you to have a CDL for pulling a trailer over 10,000 lbs.
> You can get a DOT regulations manual at most State license agencies and probably on line. Please look it up.



Thats not true. Its true if you have a chauffers and farm endorsement.

But otherwise you need a Class A.


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## pdqdl (Jan 29, 2010)

Ellis trees and I beat this up pretty good, so I will explain again: The trailer weight greater than 10k is not entirely the determining factor to whether or not you need a class A CDL. If your "combination vehicle" weight is greater than 26,000 lbs AND your trailer is more than 10k: get the Class A.

If your truck is greater than 26k, and the trailer is LESS than 10k, get a Class B.

If your trailer is greater than 10K, and the COMBINED weight is LESS than 26k: get a Class E. By the way, a "Class E" license is NOT considered a "CDL", as it does not require taking the core test for a CDL of any other class.

All of these weights apply to gross vehicle weight RATING, not at all on how much it weighs, nor how much you have loaded on it.


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## woodchux (Jan 29, 2010)

Regardless of everything else said here look at your trucks registration slip... you must not exceed the weight on your registration or you will get fined from the dot


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## pdqdl (Jan 29, 2010)

There are SEVEN ways to get an overweight ticket ! 

#1


woodchux said:


> Regardless of everything else said here look at your trucks registration slip... you must not exceed the weight on your registration or you will get fined from the dot



OR your weight rating
#2...........per vehicle
#3...........per axle
#4...........per tire
#5...........per "bridge law" ruling: too much weight on a total length of vehicle wheelbase. (Never an issue with smaller trucks)

#6 OR your _actual_ weight per posted weight restriction on any road or bridge.
#7 OR your GVWR per posted GVWR (or registered weight) restriction for some municipal streets (I think these are for the police to enforce and not need a scale to prove the overweight violation)

Those DOT boys love to write overweight tickets!


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## glassman (Jan 29, 2010)

*final answer*

I went to the sec. of state today, got her booklet, she cant advise. Called the sheriff dept. the sgt. there said I would be ok with a regular license. I also told him that it would be used in a business. The 12' trailer has a gvwr rating of 12,000 lbs. 
trailer weight--------3660 lbs.
pickup weight-------7200 lbs.
tractor weight------3500 lbs.
firewood processor--1500 lbs.
total weight--------23,860 lbs.
I have about 8,000 lbs. I can load on that trailer so I have plenty of weight to spare with that too.

Thanks again for everyones input, was very interesting post.


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## woodchux (Jan 29, 2010)

Check with the state transport police, not the sheriff's dept. The DOT will be the ones giving you the tickets not the sheriff deputies... most cops cant even tell you the regulations.


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## pdqdl (Jan 29, 2010)

woodchux said:


> Check with the state transport police, not the sheriff's dept. The DOT will be the ones giving you the tickets not the sheriff deputies... most cops cant even tell you the regulations.



Ain't that the truth!


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