# wedges in felling big'uns



## techdave (Oct 1, 2004)

Howdy all . I have always used wedges on spars or any tree that looks to have a balanced crown. If it was a leaner and I was felling to the lean or towards obvious unbalanced crown I would not wedge. Now for the questions: Do I have to wedge on a balanced tree, or is there something about proper forecut, backcut, and hinge that "makes" the tree fall forwards. Am I wrong in thinnking if a tree was in balance straight up it would naturally want to sit down on the backcut if the backcut went beyond the center of the trunk??? Please let me know, until then I will keeep wedging. Thanks Dave in Eastern San Diego county.


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## Newfie (Oct 1, 2004)

Keep wedging. Cheap insurance for a couple of seconds to whack a wedge in the back cut.


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## techdave (Oct 1, 2004)

*wedging big'ns*

Thanks Newfie, I have got a fire victim from the so called "Cedar fire" who wants some trees dropped. All Pines and Cedars, 3 supposed to be 24 inch dbh and one 36+ dbh but I will believe it when I see it. I have not looked at the place yet. It is private land so if it has been private for a long time it would all be 2nd growth. I guess in the 80 or 90 years since last logged a sugar (lambert) pine could get that big, or a ponderosa. We dont have that many Jeffrey or Coulters but they are possibles. Also Calocedrus decurrens, Western Cedar.

If nothing else It will give the 372 a little workout and give us some slabs for benches and bridging. Thanks Dave,


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## Ryan Willock (Oct 1, 2004)

If you don't have a lot of experiance then wedging is your best bet and your safest.


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## John Ellison (Oct 1, 2004)

Even when your pretty sure of the lean, you can stick a wedge in the back cut just a bit, to where it is hanging down just a bit. Then you have a good visual down by your saw for when the tree is starting to move and if its going in the right direction. But dont forget to look up.

John


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## techdave (Oct 2, 2004)

*wedges, felling big'uns*

Thanks Ryan and John, I will keep wedging. John, I really like the idea of using the wedge as a gage. I usually use a spotter, and either the gap of the backcut or the ease of cutting towartds the hinge to tell me the backcut is opening up. thanks Dave.


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## wiley_p (Oct 2, 2004)

When falling, I always put in a wedge, even if I detect forward movement while putting in the face. The only time I dont use wedges is on trees with favor to the lay. And you would be suprised at the amount of back lean you can pound over.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Newfie _
> *Keep wedging. Cheap insurance for a couple of seconds to whack a wedge in the back cut. *



Ditto.

Also makes a good tell-tale of when the tree is on its way; as opposed to sawing while looking up...


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## wiley_p (Oct 13, 2004)

Where else should one be looking besides up? Any movement of the tree will be detected soonest by observation of the upper part of the tree.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

Well... you really shouldn't be actually CUTTING while looking up. If ya hit something in the tree, you could be in for a nasty surprise. If I feel the need to look up, I stop cutting. Most of the time you can tell just by the kerf anyways.


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## wiley_p (Oct 13, 2004)

It may not seem that way but trust me often by the time you see movement in the kerf its too late, also in the woods with other trees intertwined branches can fall from above and smash you as can tops out of snags. The way I was taght to fall was look up always while backcutting, looking forward or at the cut wont change a thing, a guy can glance around but keep your eyes up.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

Geez... never thought of that.


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## NeTree (Oct 13, 2004)

(sarcasm)


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## glens (Oct 14, 2004)

I can always tell exactly just what a tree's doing by sighting up it and taking a bead on a cloud for comparison.

TC


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## Nickrosis (Oct 14, 2004)

I wish I had used a wedge this past weekend! I had my saw pinched and the tree went the "wrong" way. I ended up going with it and things worked out fine....but it could've been much worse. As soon as my saw pinched, it was "why didn't I use a wedge!!!"


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

you should know better nick:angel:


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## wiley_p (Oct 14, 2004)

Nick were you watching the kerf as netree advocates?


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## John Ellison (Oct 14, 2004)

I go along with the need to look up ( a lot ) when falling timber. Most of the cutting accidents that I have been around, guys that I have helped pack out, have been hit from above. I am sure that no one is saying that there is no need to look up, but from a safety standpoint I think it is a cutters most common and deadly mistake.

John


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## NeTree (Oct 14, 2004)

Of course you should be looking up from time to time, at least.

I'm just saying that you shouldn't be looking up and cutting at the same time; particularly with residential trees that have a high possibility of having foreign material in them.


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## Proj Eng (Oct 14, 2004)

> Do I have to wedge on a balanced tree, or is there something about proper forecut, backcut, and hinge that "makes" the tree fall forwards. Am I wrong in thinnking if a tree was in balance straight up it would naturally want to sit down on the backcut if the backcut went beyond the center of the trunk???



I'll try to answer his original question:

In a perfect world, perfect tree, perfectly balanced crown, the center of gravity of the tree (cgt) would be centered in the trunk. If you cut past the center, the wood left holding it up would (no pun intnd) have to be strong enough not to bend (elastic/plastic deformation) or collaspe (buckling). So with no wind and strong wood, you'd probably be fine. I'm sure maple, oak, poplar, etc would all behave differently [that would be a fun test, don't you think?]
But like it was said, why take the chance?, go with the cheap insurance.

I'll leave it up to the pros to discuss cutting, etc... as I am still learning as much as possible there. plus it's probably on plenty of other threads.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Oct 14, 2004)

If the FaceCut, comes back far enough for the resulting hinge pivot back further than the CG/tcg; then logically, without other forces acting; the tree will fall into the face.

Wedging can help place the CG out past this pivot by lifting if slight backlean; or secure against other forces (wind, miscalculation etc.). Wedging can also force the hinge stronger by pressurizing hinge during folding. The gravity of the tree will force the hinge to 'X' strength; the extra tension of wedge, will like force hinge stronger like a bigger tree would. Then, tree lifts off of wedge, and pressure stops (from wedge), so now only tree pressure on the forced stronger hinge.

Bringing Facecut in further, helps to fall to Face as said. 

Slanting BackCut downwards and wedging, reduces the arching motion, and thereby reduces the leverage that way. So it takes more power for the same effect, but the stump side is slanted on BackCut then too; this weakens the 'back stop' that more power must be applied to for the same effect!


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## a_lopa (Oct 14, 2004)

i know of a local guy faller that got impaled by a falling dead stick thru his shoulder,i dont look up for that reason just listern and watch the hinge allways out on a 45


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## wiley_p (Oct 16, 2004)

just listen and watch, sometimes Iwonder about people, you arent looking up at the hazard so how can you watch? your saw is running I guess youy have earplugs in. You make no case whatsoever nor does Erik.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Hazards should be identified before you ever even start cutting; so why the big need to look up? Your saw isn't up in the tree top.

DUH.


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## Gypo Logger (Oct 16, 2004)

An interesting technique is shown in the following picture.
Dennis has lightly set a wedge in the backcut after removing sufficient bark. The wedge hangs down, thereby detecting if the wedge stands up than the tree must be closing on the backcut. Or if the wedge falls out than the tree is where it was intended to go.
John


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Gypo Logger _
> *An interesting technique is shown in the following picture.
> Dennis has lightly set a wedge in the backcut after removing sufficient bark. The wedge hangs down, thereby detecting if the wedge stands up than the tree must be closing on the backcut. Or if the wedge falls out than the tree is where it was intended to go.
> John *




Meanwhile he can pay more attention to what he's doing.


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## Ax-man (Oct 16, 2004)

Pretty slick trick with that wedge.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2004)

Dam John(Dennis), that iz a cool trick. I can't wait to show it to someone!


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## wiley_p (Oct 16, 2004)

Maybe you run a saw differently than I Erik I've only been cutting for 18 years I can always learn something from folks just so far not from anything youve said on this topic, If you went in the woods with some of your technique I think you may modify things after a couple of days of poor produciton and screaming.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

wiley...

You're absolutely right- I must be wrong. 

Now I'm sure I've been doing it wrong for the last 22 years. I'll have to hand over my tape and crayon, and find something else to do for a living.


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## wiley_p (Oct 16, 2004)

if you have really cut in the woods remember the subject was wedges in big timber, you wouldnt be so steadfast in what you are saying, never said you didnt know what you were doing but you said DUH to me remember like I dont know whats up, sos whatsay we get togeher sometime and see what the othewr is made of its been my experience you New England boys are good at what you do in your little part of the country, but you have some strange habits, and maybe 22 years there is only 10 years out here.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Nope. You win. I don't know a thing.










Well, I _DO_ at least have better grammar.


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## Big Dutchman (Oct 16, 2004)

wiley_p,

Reading back on this thread you said you use a wedge on every tree. That will not gain you any production, in fact it will make you be much slower on the stump. As soon as you pound your wedge up tight you lose the feel of the tree. My experience has taught me to use a wedge when needed.


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## xander9727 (Oct 16, 2004)

Erik,
All the trees east of the Rockies are no bigger than 15" dbh and no taller than 65'. Don't you know anything?

Everyone knows it's easier to fell a tree in an urban setting with multiple targets than a forest.

I prefer using a back release method and wedges on large trees. This prevents the tree from moving until after you're done sawing. Then you can look up after each swing of the axe/sledgehammer to look for falling debris. Addtionally it is easy to detect when the tree begins to move.

My $.02


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## wiley_p (Oct 16, 2004)

I stick a wedge in on every tree except those favored to the lay, I rarely have to use my axe, a tap with another wedge sets it in the kerf and sometimes a couple more taps is needed, you are correct though. Thats why my axes are painted dayglo because often the axe is with the fuel and my pack.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by xander9727 _
> *Erik,
> All the trees east of the Rockies are no bigger than 15" dbh and no taller than 65'. Don't you know anything?
> 
> ...


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

xander, you mean like this?


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

This should give you some idea on the proximity of the house...


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## glens (Oct 16, 2004)

What are you guys going to be like when cabin fever sets in?

Erik, you're supposed to look <i><b>up</b></i>!&nbsp; Now I'm thinking you're not really from MA, but Kentucky or Tennessee!


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Now, if you want a reason to look up, here it is... ME.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

OMG, Glen... your timing on that post was impeccable!!!

Call me if you want to know why.


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## wiley_p (Oct 16, 2004)

Erik that looks like standard removal work by a proffessional, and your lay looks nice in the first picture, so with all those targets you size everything up and put yor face in the need to focus on your lead is not improtant, also your showing pictures that are a little diferent than timber falling you are constanly ripping branches and tops etc . Thats why a guy wants to focus on up higher, follow the fall. The original post was in the logging section.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Well, the first pic was trees I was able to drop.

The other 2 trees weren't going to happen that way.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Oh, and the video clip? Just found where it's been hiding, and couldn't resist.


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Now, if you want a reason to look up, here it is... ME. *




Dam. Since my service pak 2 I just see alien cymbals.


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by wiley_p _
> *Erik that looks like standard removal work by a proffessional *



By the way, Thank You. =)


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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

Butch, you ain't got rid of that SP2 YET?!?!?


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## MasterBlaster (Oct 16, 2004)




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## NeTree (Oct 16, 2004)

...I'll take that as a NO.


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## techdave (Oct 17, 2004)

*thaks for all the info guys!*

Howdy all, thanks for the info. I did not mean to start a border skirmish between you all. To clarify I am cutting dead trees, mostly spars in a severely burned area. I stole the wedge as symbol of tip trick from the Dancin with the Devil thread, but I aint using it in thsi dead stuff because I still got to look up for burned branches falling from the vibration and movement of the tree. 

I spent all day in a recovery seminar yesterdy about how Cuyamaca Rancho State Park is recovering. Lots off good info on latest fire ecology. For examplesuppression is a failure in SoCal mixed coniferoius forsest and conif-decid because 1-3 percent of fires will escape initial attack and turn into santa ana driven hell storms---the cedar fire grew 22,000 acres in ONE hour at about hour 8 . It went 22 miles westward btween early morning and afternoon. Good info on animal behavior. A collared mtn lion female, went about 10 miles south in her terrritory, towards the fire!! She did make a successful hunt but was later burned and died after going from 90 pounds to 60 pounds in 2 weeks from burns on her stomach. 

As Wiley stated, this is a logging type workarea, except there sometimes is a well, or wall, or watertank that must be saved. 
There will be bigger falls to come these 1-2 footers are just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the OLD trees are from 1894, but 170 to 224 year olds are common on the peaks, according to dendrochronologist yesterday at seminar. The District interpretive specialist holds to his guess of 500-700 years for his secret Coulter with 104 inch dbh, while I cant back that since the 224 year old from a nearby peak with similar soil was 84 inches. 
thanks again, dave.


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## NeTree (Oct 17, 2004)

Deadwood isn't going to hold a hinge nearly as well or as long.


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## wiley_p (Oct 17, 2004)

What are you saying Erik, maybe this would not be the place for the "murphy" tapered hinge? Techdave, dont be to reluctant to use wedges on those snags, remember they are often pefectly balanced, if you wedge, tap lookup wait, tap lookup wait. Or if your from the east coast look in the direction of you lay and bang away. Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by wiley_p _
> *Nick were you watching the kerf as netree advocates? *


I had a pull line and was plunge cutting. I knew it had structural issues...4 cracks were visible. No decay (red oak). What I didn't put together before I started cutting was the fact that I had a fraction of the hinge I expected I had.

The cracks were because of a split ages ago, and I didn't put it together....Oh well, it was in the woods.  I don't experiment like that on the job. Usually.


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## daddieslilgirl (Oct 17, 2004)

some of your words i dont understand but when we were little the first rule we were taught in logging was ALWAYS look up! just my 2 cents


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## NeTree (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by daddieslilgirl _
> *some of your words i dont understand but when we were little the first rule we were taught in logging was ALWAYS look up! just my 2 cents *




Now that you're bigger, maybe you can learn to use English.


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## NeTree (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by wiley_p _
> *What are you saying Erik, maybe this would not be the place for the "murphy" tapered hinge? *



Naw. Simply that it won't hold any hinge as well as it would in green wood... on the east coast, anyways.


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## xander9727 (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Now that you're bigger, maybe you can learn to use English. *



Erik,
I'm gonna bet this won't go without a response. ROTFLMAO


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## NeTree (Oct 17, 2004)

i dont care thatz wut eye hafen ignorelist four


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## wiley_p (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Naw. Simply that it won't hold any hinge as well as it would in green wood... on the east coast, anyways.  *


well theres one thing thats roughly the same.


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## Nickrosis (Oct 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *i dont care thatz wut eye hafen ignorelist four *


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## techdave (Oct 18, 2004)

*dead tree hinges*

Hi guys, the trees I am cutting are almost all fire kills. A few were beetle or drought kills before the fire. They have sat 1 year. I always pound the trunk to test for soundness, and clear the bark before starting. I figure I still got to look up, as some of these limbs are weak!!! One tree threw a 10 foot long 6 inch limb 30 feet when it landed. Would have felt great hitting my head from 40 feet up LOL!!

I always have wedged unless an obvious leaner...even going back to 12 inch maple I cut as a 13 year old kid under grandads direction. Looking bakc, he probably didnt know that much about timber either, as he was a Ranchero (cowhand), not a forest person.

Sometime in the next month I will move from the shadowed North side of the mountain into the southWest face!!!!! It will be weird to see teh difference in felling behavior, but I think the trees will be about 12 inches bigger on average, and lots more Quercus kellogii. 

I dont have much experince felling trees with broad crowns.
Most of what i have done is either Pines or Eucalyptus/BlueGum. Sorry AussieLopa, I dont know the different classifications, we just call them all Eucalyptus!!!


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## a_lopa (Oct 19, 2004)

one thing oftern over looked or frowned on by fools is cutting your notch as low as possible gaining leverage trees that size push over easy,eucs are weeds i meen trees blue gums are PITA they grow too quik


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