# A Not Uncommon Yarding Problem.



## slowp (Dec 29, 2009)

I was out scouting a unit ahead--refreshing my memory. It had been partially yarded. I came across this problem. From these photos, can you tell what the problem is? The rule is No Skidders, cat, forwarders etc. allowed. Only a yarder or helicopter. 

This is looking uphill. Ignore my beautiful assistant's zombie eyes.






This is looking down the slope. 






I'd type the answer upside down but that would be too much trouble. :monkey:


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## synness4 (Dec 29, 2009)

put a harness on your "used" dog hooked to the logs and trow a stick to the log truck !!!


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## logging22 (Dec 29, 2009)

theres a pretty dog in the way? Did i win?


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## 371groundie (Dec 29, 2009)

ok eastcoaster out of my league, but ill take a stab at it. 

it looks like you are kinda on a step in the slope. aka its steeper below you than above you. so if you set up a yarder on top of the hill, the wood from below where you are standing will catch on the hump. 

thats my guess. if not that it might have somthing to do with the water in the background of the second pic.


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## slowp (Dec 29, 2009)

371groundie said:


> ok eastcoaster out of my league, but ill take a stab at it.
> 
> it looks like you are kinda on a step in the slope. aka its steeper below you than above you. so if you set up a yarder on top of the hill, the wood from below where you are standing will catch on the hump.
> 
> thats my guess. if not that it might have somthing to do with the water in the background of the second pic.



We have a winner. The slope is the problem. They'll need to rig up an intermediate support or jack to get the logs up over that. Or else yard downhill.

The unit has old skid trails all over it, but is under a court order to use yarders or helicopter. 

I believe they might start up in June.


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## Humptulips (Jan 1, 2010)

So is it logged above the hump? It looks like it if the dog is above the timber to be logged.
If so then the question arises do you log across dead ground or down hill. Ack, what a terrible set of options.


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2010)

Humptulips said:


> So is it logged above the hump? It looks like it if the dog is above the timber to be logged.
> If so then the question arises do you log across dead ground or down hill. Ack, what a terrible set of options.



Yes it is. There was a disagreement between the logger and mill. Somebody else will have to finish the unit. It won't be a happy place to be.


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## floyd (Jan 1, 2010)

AKA deflection. Yrs ago, in another galaxy, I worked for USFS. We used to run profiles looking at...deflection.


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2010)

floyd said:


> AKA deflection. Yrs ago, in another galaxy, I worked for USFS. We used to run profiles looking at...deflection.




Well, if you ran a profile, this spot would be the critical point. The logging system was prescribed by a court. It is doable with an intermediate support.
Downhill? Well maybe I should run a profile to see if that works. Have to find out who has the most recent issue of loggerpc. 

Usually, an experienced logger will figure it out as good as loggerpc. In fact, I ran a profile on another unit, the logger walked it. The logger said hang skyline 30 feet up. Loggerpc said the same.


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## Gologit (Jan 1, 2010)

slowp said:


> Usually, an experienced logger will figure it out as good as loggerpc. In fact, I ran a profile on another unit, the logger walked it. The logger said hang skyline 30 feet up. Loggerpc said the same.



Ssshhhhhhhh...don't let the people in the office know that. They'll revise the software so the logger will be _wrong_.


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## forestryworks (Jan 1, 2010)

slowp said:


> The logging system was prescribed by a court.



and that is what's wrong with this country.

not snipping at you Slowp, but stuff like that...


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## floyd (Jan 1, 2010)

Need a little more info. Why did the court prescribe skyline & who recommended this to the judge?


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2010)

It was before my time here. An environmental group took the sale to court. 
Using skyline for 100% of 2 sales was the judgement. No groundbased, no where, nohow. 

But, about 100 feet away, across a little drainage, is a new sale logged with a cat. It makes no sense, doesn't have to make sense, and "that's just the way it is."

Gologit, that software is made by Oregon State. They'll have to change it. Maybe they will since the last time I was in their Forestry building, there was a large bulletin board with HEMP IS THE ANSWER proclaimed. Now, whatever the question is, remember, HEMP IS THE ANSWER.


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## Rookie1 (Jan 1, 2010)

slowp said:


> It was before my time here. An environmental group took the sale to court.
> Using skyline for 100% of 2 sales was the judgement. No groundbased, no where, nohow.
> 
> But, about 100 feet away, across a little drainage, is a new sale logged with a cat. It makes no sense, doesn't have to make sense, and "that's just the way it is."



That is soooooo stupid. What is this world coming to,a bunch of sue happy freaks.


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2010)

Rookie1 said:


> That is soooooo stupid. What is this world coming to,a bunch of sue happy freaks.




Been that way for a looooonnnngggg time here. Anybody but a forester is an expert on forest management. No more ranting, gotta make the best of it.


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## Humptulips (Jan 1, 2010)

Used to be on OlympicNF no equipment was ever allowed off the road. I see now they are backing off of that a bit and allowing some ground based equipment to operate. I think it won't last if what I see recently is an example. An outfit logging a sale just south of me had knee deep mud when I rode along with a friend to deliver a few loads of rock. 

I found those logging profiles to be next to worthless. It seemed they assuned a skyline could run for a couple thousand feet with no belly. You draw a straight line on a piece of paper. It's gotta work, right!


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## slowp (Jan 1, 2010)

The computer run program is pretty good. It is a little more complicated than a line on a paper. 

What with the deadlines for putting up a sale, there isn't enough time to get plans very accurate. That's a bad thing. I do a lot of fixing. 

Skidders are a cheaper way to go, but folks don't understand that they can't run during wet weather.


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## RPM (Jan 1, 2010)

Guess you can't get a mid slope road or trail up on the break and spliit the yarding up / down? Although suppose if you are looking at intermediates they are not going to let you build a piece of road either.

That sucks ... I hate when "rules" screw up good logging chance.


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## Hddnis (Jan 1, 2010)

At least the court didn't order that blimps be used; I have heard of that being requested, don't know if it was in the ruling or not.



Mr. HE


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## AlaskanLogger (Jan 1, 2010)

Just curious, how far is the yarding below the bench? And what will the average road length be? Skyline road, i mean....


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## AlaskanLogger (Jan 2, 2010)

Hddnis said:


> At least the court didn't order that blimps be used; I have heard of that being requested, don't know if it was in the ruling or not.
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. HE



Balloons were actually used here in Alaska for a time. Pat Soderberg, Clear Creek Logging logges several sales. Wish i had some pics. Yarder was a Washington triple-drum designed specifically for the balloon.


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## slowp (Jan 2, 2010)

AlaskanLogger said:


> Just curious, how far is the yarding below the bench? And what will the average road length be? Skyline road, i mean....



That part would be about 1000 feet, I believe. There was some discussion when the original logger was in there. Only about 200 to 300 feet under the bench.


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## AlaskanLogger (Jan 2, 2010)

With 1000 foot roads a smaller yarder will be best- especially working with intermediate supports. Looking at your pics, the timber is alright. A TY40 or Koller 501 should do it. With fuel prices these days I avoid even the 071's unless I absolutley have to have them- which you wouln't here. I have a friend near PeEll who would log this with a Cat 330 yoader and Eaglet carriage, but for me we wont yoader over about 800 feet. He has been lucky, and Ive been at it long enough to know that I'm not lucky.


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## AlaskanLogger (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks for sharing slowp- this logging-from-the-couch is always more fun, and the crew and trucks are never late!


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## floyd (Jan 2, 2010)

And safer too & it doesn't rain on us.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 4, 2010)

AWWWHH heck , just tower up a 009 and ground pound it ... No Polack , just high lead :stupid:opcorn::kilt::kilt::kilt:


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## tramp bushler (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh ya , down hill .. Have the hook fall the lift trees , he,s prolly too chicken to climb anyway ......... 
.
. I,ve seen it done toooo many times to want to remember !!!


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> Oh ya , down hill .. Have the hook fall the lift trees , he,s prolly too chicken to climb anyway .........
> .
> . I,ve seen it done toooo many times to want to remember !!!



Many years ago, the fallers cut the tail trees. Hats were thrown when the mistake was discovered. They did rig up a polack (if you are talking about a Grabinsky) and just managed to get everything up the hill. 

I have not seen butt rigging in use since leaving here. 

Butt,  that's a good thing about thinnings, there usually are several trees that make good lift trees-usually. Sometimes not. 

They usually fall the lift trees to de-rig. The wildlifers like to have trees left on the ground and will go in afterwards to dump trees to leave on the ground. 

Gotta get to work....I'm getting into a "Pun" mood.


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## Metals406 (Jan 4, 2010)

We encountered bellies in the sets' (roads) quite a bit. Slack pulling carriages were heavier (i.e. Eagles, Maki's), so we used a Cristy Carriage. It helped when we had to rig a tail tree that wasn't as beefy as we wanted. 

We'd climb the tail tree, set a ****** lip, and guy the heck out'a the tree. It worked really well and wood could be pulled.

One belly I remember was so bad though, the carriage would hit dirt for 5' or so, and then get lift again.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 4, 2010)

*slowp thats a pretty big word for a riggin man*

Ya it,s a Grabinski . But it,s just called a rider block or Polock .......... It works very good , puts a little more wear on the haul back but not much . But it is alot better on the logs , if there is even some lift ....... THE LIFT TREE PROBLEM IS A MANAGMENT PROBLEM ..... I get pretty p.o.ed when office types blame the fallers for cuttin timber when the trees usually arn,t marked or someone tells the cutters or bullbuck the unit will be shovel logged ect....... Or there is one little dot of faded paint , or a small ax blaze ......that can,t be seen by someone who is bushlin .... 
.
. Yes there are CULL cutters who will pound lift trees .. But if the guy marking the trees spent time unwrapping subterranean lead kinky inch chockers . .. they would make REAL sure the lift trees were already swampped out and marked so a blind guy would know not to cut them .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Put on some fogged up safety glasses and you will see what I mean ...


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## Humptulips (Jan 4, 2010)

Heard it called Grabinsky, lavinsky, skavinsky, rider block amd pollacking but mostly the pollacking. Grabinsky mostly used by your FS types, maybe regional thing. Kind of like this from Metals

(We'd climb the tail tree, set a ****** lip, and guy the heck out'a the tree. It worked really well and wood could be pulled)

I'm sure that makes sense in Montana but I don't have a clue here what he's talking about.

On another note I never really liked pollacking unless you have a lot of lift. Seen guys use it when you couldn't even get the chokers all the way off the ground. It really helps on a downhill show but again you need lift and IMHO it is really hard on the haulback especially if you don't have the prerequisit amount of lift


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> Ya it,s a Grabinski . But it,s just called a rider block or Polock .......... It works very good , puts a little more wear on the haul back but not much . But it is alot better on the logs , if there is even some lift ....... THE LIFT TREE PROBLEM IS A MANAGMENT PROBLEM ..... I get pretty p.o.ed when office types blame the fallers for cuttin timber when the trees usually arn,t marked or someone tells the cutters or bullbuck the unit will be shovel logged ect....... Or there is one little dot of faded paint , or a small ax blaze ......that can,t be seen by someone who is bushlin ....
> .
> . Yes there are CULL cutters who will pound lift trees .. But if the guy marking the trees spent time unwrapping subterranean lead kinky inch chockers . .. they would make REAL sure the lift trees were already swampped out and marked so a blind guy would know not to cut them .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Put on some fogged up safety glasses and you will see what I mean ...




Actually, I think one of the owners of the logging side, was cutting in that area. It was kind of "his bad."


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## tramp bushler (Jan 4, 2010)

*Down hill logging , it,s a Southeast thing*

Ya for loggin up hill regular highlead works well unless you have to tightline up over a bluff or 2 in the rode............
.
.
.It is amazeing how some guys run a business .......


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## hammerlogging (Jan 4, 2010)

belly is another word for deflection


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## slowp (Jan 4, 2010)

Lift is the term I hear most. Easier to spell than deflection too.

During the 80s, it seemed like every clearcut had some flattish ground at the top, and then plunged off over a rocky bluff down to the creek (pronounced crick). That was solved by simply pushing in a road, dumping big pit run rock on it, and then yarding from the bluff edge. Vegetation belays were sometimes available, and there usually was a non rocky spot to get down, but one crew had a rope to slide down on. 
Most people on the ground, including me, were young then. 

This area has had quite a bit downhill yarding done too. The logging systems guys don't like us doing it.


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## Humptulips (Jan 4, 2010)

slowp said:


> Most people on the ground, including me, were young then.



Wasn't that great. The hills weren't near as steep then and they weren't as tall either. Could have something to do with quantum physics but I thought time was supposed to slow down as we became heavier (must be drifting closer to a black hole) but instead time seems to speeding up. I know we must be close to a blackhole because everything is heavier now then it used to be. I used to be able to pack two 15 inch youngs and now I can barely pick one up. Alas, I have lost my old physics book from school or I would check on these things.


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## AlaskanLogger (Jan 4, 2010)

slowp said:


> Lift is the term I hear most. Easier to spell than deflection too.
> 
> During the 80s, it seemed like every clearcut had some flattish ground at the top, and then plunged off over a rocky bluff down to the creek (pronounced crick). That was solved by simply pushing in a road, dumping big pit run rock on it, and then yarding from the bluff edge. Vegetation belays were sometimes available, and there usually was a non rocky spot to get down, but one crew had a rope to slide down on.
> Most people on the ground, including me, were young then.
> ...



One State Sale I bought in the early 90's (up Winston Creek in Lewis County WA) had alot of long (1800') downhill corridors in it. We actually used a standing skyline with a motorized slackpulling carriage. We could clamp it and bring in wood from long herringbone corridors, then snub the carriage down the main corridor with the haulback. When I bought the sale I was planning on using a subcontractor, but wound up short on work for one of the Vail sides, so we ran a TMY 70 at 50', and the haulback had a water brake so it worked out OK. It wasnt fun logging, but it was logging, and the wood was nice sized. Wood went clear to Eugene, so all the truckers made good money on it as well.


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