# bowline on a bight, grabbing just one loop?



## Plasmech (Nov 10, 2009)

Say I want to install a 5/8" block on a bull rope using a bowline-on-a-bight. Only one of the two loops formed will fit into the attachment pin pulley. Is it acceptable to do this? Otherwise, what's a recommended knot for this application that will actually come out after she's loaded to several thousand pounds? This is a snatch block w/ come-along application by the way.


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## lego1970 (Nov 10, 2009)

I've had good luck with using a butterfly knot. Sometimes I have to use a hammer to get the knot apart but that's only if I'm using the truck or a come-a-long on it.


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## Plasmech (Nov 10, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> No it is not OK to load only on loop of the BOAB.
> 
> Alpine butterfly or mid line figure eight. Both will tighten up more than a bowline so be prepared.



Yea I've used the butterfly before but man is that one hard to get undone...


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## southsoundtree (Nov 10, 2009)

Rather than a hammer, you can use a breakable stick in the knot. When the knot is to be untied, break the stick (usually about thumb-thick works) at the knot and remove from the knot. You have slack in your knot. Of course this will change bend radius, dressing, possibly strength, but if your not near the max load, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Rftreeman (Nov 10, 2009)

I use something similar to the butterfly but I'd have to show you how it done, it can be untied easily and has one loop and just call it the three ring knot.


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## daytondedrick (Nov 10, 2009)

A "bowline on a bight with one eye" is an option.


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## daytondedrick (Nov 10, 2009)

I've always called it a "bowline on a bight with one eye", but apparently it is also called a "double dragon". Look here-

http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm


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## treemandan (Nov 10, 2009)

do you smell what The Plas is cooking? He's got something in the pot.


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## Plasmech (Nov 10, 2009)

treemandan said:


> do you smell what The Plas is cooking? He's got something in the pot.



Yea. It's called work baby!


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## treemandan (Nov 10, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Yea. It's called work baby!



Dam. just look at all the rep you got now. Hell, you are steeped in it. But no pics? Well smelling is one thing; can we see?


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## Plasmech (Nov 10, 2009)

treemandan said:


> Dam. just look at all the rep you got now. Hell, you are steeped in it. But no pics? Well smelling is one thing; can we see?



Main job has been logging out a guy's back lot...by hand, no Dingo and no big truck. Getting lots of felling and bucking experience. Setting lots of bull ropes using the Big Shot, spikes, and even ascenders. Many come-along pulls too. Not a glamourous job, not many pictures, but it's giving some sort of experience anyway. 

Have several other jobs lined up including a few rigging-down jobs which I have zero experience doing. One job is completely over my head, in fact I think it's probably a crane job, that's the one I wanted you to look at TMD. 

I am getting a lot better on the spikes believe it or not!


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 11, 2009)

*Consider this alternative*



Plasmech said:


> Say I want to install a 5/8" block on a bull rope using a bowline-on-a-bight. Only one of the two loops formed will fit into the attachment pin pulley. Is it acceptable to do this? Otherwise, what's a recommended knot for this application that will actually come out after she's loaded to several thousand pounds? This is a snatch block w/ come-along application by the way.



*"The Water Bowline is a very secure loop that won't jam ..."*

*WATER BOWLINE link* ... *WATER BOWLINE video*













*"Although similar in finished appearance to the double bowline, the water bowline is formed with a clove hitch as the loop in the standing part of the rope. This is similar to the double bowline, which puts the running end through a doubled loop. The additional friction from the clove hitch increases the security of this knot."*


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## Plasmech (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks Jack but I need a mid-line knot, not a terminating knot.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 11, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Thanks Jack but I need a mid-line knot, not a terminating knot.



I didn't see "mid-line" in the OP ... guess I should have assumed ... 

so, have you ever tried a Figure 9? ... it's a fairly good single mid-line loop as long as you don't pull the ends apart ... TheTreeSpyder got me interested in it a long time ago ... pulled down a large leaner with a tractor a week ago ... 1/2" TreeMaster looped around the stem with F9 on each end linked to the tractor, in the rain - very wet ... it was a chore but it could be untied without tools ... worth considering

BTW ... after being unsuccessful with a 4T come-along and block ... it came down with the tractor!


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## yooper (Nov 11, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I use something similar to the butterfly but I'd have to show you how it done, it can be untied easily and has one loop and just call it the three ring knot.



I beleave I use the same Knot when using a rope for a 3-1 to pull down trees.
We always called it a 3 ring bowline, knot sure what its real name is.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 11, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> I use something similar to the butterfly but I'd have to show you how it done, it can be untied easily and has one loop and just call it the *three ring knot*.





yooper said:


> I beleave I use the same Knot when using a rope for a 3-1 to pull down trees.
> We always called it a *3 ring bowline*, knot sure what its real name is.



This "3 ring knot (bowline)" sounds interesting. I only found one reference to it which claimed it WAS, *so they say*, the Butterfly (aka Lineman's Loop, aka Alpine Butterfly ... )

Could this possibly be what you're referring to???

*Butterfly Knot *


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## Rftreeman (Nov 11, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> This "3 ring knot (bowline)" sounds interesting. I only found one reference to it which claimed it WAS, *so they say*, the Butterfly (aka Lineman's Loop, aka Alpine Butterfly ... )
> 
> Could this possibly be what you're referring to???
> 
> *Butterfly Knot *


the knot I use you start with the 3 rings in your hand as you would with the butterfly but then use a braiding motion with the three loops and pull the third loop threw and that is the standing loop and you pull the two tails (one would be tied off to a tree or what ever) and cinch it all up then you have a mid-line loop that you can use for a block and the tail that your would go threw another block on an anchor point and back threw the block on the loop to get a mechanical advantage, I only use this for pulling spars and whole trees over and nothing else....

if my card reader was working I'd make a video to show what I'm talking about..

Did all that make sense....


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## Plasmech (Nov 11, 2009)

I can tie a butterfly with my eyes closed but again, it's REAL hard to undo once she's been loaded with a few thousand pounds, I mean nearly impossible.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 11, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> I can tie a butterfly with my eyes closed but again, it's REAL hard to undo once she's been loaded with a few thousand pounds, I mean nearly impossible.



Favorite mid-line loops (in order): F9, BOAB, Butterfly

Here's a thought ... you might want to have one of these ... they're really handy in this work:






The pliers for shackles & links ... the marlin spike will untie anything ... the knife when it won't (lol)

$35 from myerchin.com


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## Plasmech (Nov 11, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Hey Plas consider one of these to go between the block and the rope. Picture taken from Sherrill catalog. Get the biggest one that will fit. There are also whopping large steel biners that would work well.



Good idea.


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## outofmytree (Nov 12, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Say I want to install a 5/8" block on a bull rope using a bowline-on-a-bight. Only one of the two loops formed will fit into the attachment pin pulley. Is it acceptable to do this? Otherwise, what's a recommended knot for this application that will actually come out after she's loaded to several thousand pounds? This is a snatch block w/ come-along application by the way.



Use a steel karabiner to join the BOAB and the block. Then you can use both legs. Love BOAB's for the ease of breaking after loading.


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## toddstreeservic (Nov 12, 2009)

it is perfectly safe to use only one loop of the BOAB. It is used in rock climbing to attach to 2 seperate anchors. You could also use a figure 8 on a bite although it is harder to untie after being weighted. Butterfly is the way to go IMO.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Hey Plas consider one of these to go between the block and the rope. Picture taken from Sherrill catalog. Get the biggest one that will fit. There are also whopping large steel biners that would work well.



Also, consider these (Sherrill, too):





Or, this (ISC Big Dan 50kN - old pic from Sherrill's site, current models look different):





And then there's this (AUSTRIALPIN 111kN) for heavier rigging:


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## davej (Nov 12, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> $35 from myerchin.com



$4 from China

Actually, what if you used a Fig-8 or 9 or a Butterfly with a carabiner stuck in it? The Butterfly has sort of a natural spot for a biner to go.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

davej said:


> *$4 from China*



COOL - good find!!!


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## Plasmech (Nov 12, 2009)

Know who sells AUSTRIALPIN?



SINGLE-JACK said:


> Also, consider these (Sherrill, too):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Know who sells AUSTRIALPIN?



I bought a pair of them off-the-shelf at Sierra Moreno Mercantile Company, Inc. - Hagerstown, MD - don't remember the cost.


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## Plasmech (Nov 12, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> I bought a pair of them off-the-shelf at Sierra Moreno Mercantile Company, Inc. - Hagerstown, MD - don't remember the cost.



Hey speaking of 'biners, any idea where you can get the little rubber stopper things, like the little wide rubber bands?


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## brisawyer (Nov 12, 2009)

Tie it with one loop. I will post a pic when the blackberry quits being retarded.


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## brisawyer (Nov 12, 2009)

Here it is. Part running up should go to tree. Part to right to anchor. Two hanging down is the loop. http://www.arboristsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114521&stc=1&d=1258070064


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 12, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Hey speaking of 'biners, any idea where you can get *the little rubber stopper things, like the little wide rubber bands?*



Drawing a blank - Help me out here ... *"the little rubber stopper things, like the little wide rubber bands?"* ... 
Come on, gimme some tech talk ... need more words ...

"little wide rubber bands"?





Corner traps?











"little rubber stopper things"?




*OUCH!!! NOT LOL*


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## Rftreeman (Nov 13, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> Drawing a blank - Help me out here ... *"the little rubber stopper things, like the little wide rubber bands?"* ...
> Come on, gimme some tech talk ... need more words ...
> 
> "little wide rubber bands"?
> ...


that's gota hurt like hell at first...


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## Plasmech (Nov 13, 2009)

Corner caps not Jimmy caps!




SINGLE-JACK said:


> Drawing a blank - Help me out here ... *"the little rubber stopper things, like the little wide rubber bands?"* ...
> Come on, gimme some tech talk ... need more words ...
> 
> "little wide rubber bands"?
> ...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 13, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Corner caps not Jimmy caps!



All these Corner Traps are from Sherrill












But, if you like the leather ones, you can make your own out of an old leather belt in less than a minute. You can also use a Velcro cable wrap (below), which works pretty good and is reusable. Or, for a more permanent trap use a nylon wire tie.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 13, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Say I want to install a 5/8" *block on a bull rope using a bowline-on-a-bight*. Only one of the two loops formed will fit into the attachment pin pulley. Is it acceptable to do this? Otherwise, what's a recommended knot for this application that will actually come out after she's loaded to several thousand pounds? This is a snatch block w/ come-along application by the way.



I was thinking about your OP. If you like _"using a bowline-on-a-bight"_, you can cinch up one of the loops (when you 'dress' the knot) so it's tight to the knot - then use the other loop for your block. Tried it last night ... it sets and unties well but I didn't load it with thousands of pounds. 

I've read that one of the known problems with the BOAB is that if you heavily load only one loop it will 'steal' from the other loop. By cinching the un-used loop tight, you will eliminate that as a problem.

... just a thought ...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Corner caps not Jimmy caps!





SINGLE-JACK said:


> ...
> But, if you like the leather ones, you can make your own out of an old leather belt in less than a minute. You can also use a *Velcro cable wrap (below), which works pretty good and is reusable*. Or, for a more permanent trap use a nylon wire tie.


Just in case your thread hasn't fallen off your radar ... I thought I'd post a pic ... 
*a Velcro cable wrap does make a really good corner trap*:


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## pdqdl (Nov 16, 2009)

Rftreeman said:


> that's gota hurt like hell at first...



They put them on little pigs, sometimes other farm critters. After about a week, certain parts just start falling off. They don't squeal nearly as much as when you get a knife and just have at 'em.

Naturally, they make a special tool for installing them, too.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> They put them on little pigs, sometimes other farm critters. After about a week, certain parts just start falling off. They don't squeal nearly as much as when you get a knife and just have at 'em.
> 
> *Naturally, they make a special tool for installing them, too.*



That special tool is in fact Sherrill's "Blue Band-It". You can buy the EXACT same tool at Tractor Supply 

Sherrill: "... this product is actually a castrating tool for livestock" - $13





TSC: SKU 2221505 Economy Band Castrator - $17.49





*YEA! SHERRILL!!!*

Yet more trivia ...

:arg:

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread:

Single loop BOAB or ... whatever ...


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## Plasmech (Nov 16, 2009)

Hurts just looking at it man...






SINGLE-JACK said:


> That special tool is in fact Sherrill's "Blue Band-It". You can buy the EXACT same tool at Tractor Supply
> 
> Sherrill: "... this product is actually a castrating tool for livestock" - $13
> 
> ...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> Hurts just looking at it man...



MAN, you got that right ... had my legs crossed as it typed it. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Plasmech (Nov 16, 2009)

SINGLE-JACK said:


> MAN, you got that right ... had my legs crossed as it typed it. :hmm3grin2orange:



Off topic here Jack, but I have some big-azzed poplars to take down. Any words of wisdom on cutting poplar? Is this stuff like super un-predictable?


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 16, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> *Off topic *here Jack, but I have some big-azzed poplars to take down. Any words of wisdom on cutting poplar? Is this stuff like super *un-predictable*?



Yeah, I know ... I tried steering it back on topic a couple of times ... hope your corner trap questions were answered ...

Anyway, about poplar ... they are somewhat un-predictable but NOT SUPER UN-PREDICTABLE. I had one break off (at a sharp angle) 10ft above the butt without any warning ... slid straight down and stuck 2ft in the ground. It's a generally weak wood. I've always felt it best to let them fall in the direction of lean, if possible. Avoid forcing them too much - pull and hold lines don't always work as expected - so be extra-extra careful ... *keep a sharp eye on the entire stem*, not just the crown and the butt.

Good luck - let us know how it goes,
Jack


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## Plasmech (Nov 16, 2009)

A little less straightforward...I need to climb these big guys, probably 90 feet tall, and bomb out the top so the bottom 40 feet can be felled.




SINGLE-JACK said:


> Yeah, I know ... I tried steering it back on topic a couple of times ... hope your corner trap questions were answered ...
> 
> Anyway, about poplar ... they are somewhat un-predictable but NOT SUPER UN-PREDICTABLE. I had one break off (at a sharp angle) 10ft above the butt without any warning ... slid straight down and stuck 2ft in the ground. It's a generally weak wood. I've always felt it best to let them fall in the direction of lean, if possible. Avoid forcing them too much - pull and hold lines don't always work as expected - so be extra-extra careful ... *keep a sharp eye on the entire stem*, not just the crown and the butt.
> 
> ...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 17, 2009)

Plasmech said:


> *Main job has been logging out a guy's back lot*...by hand, no Dingo and no big truck. Getting lots of felling and bucking experience. *Setting lots of bull ropes using the Big Shot, spikes, and even ascenders. Many come-along pulls too. * Not a glamourous job, not many pictures, but it's giving some sort of experience anyway.
> 
> Have several other jobs lined up including a few rigging-down jobs which I have zero experience doing. One job is completely over my head, in fact I think it's probably a crane job, that's the one I wanted you to look at TMD.
> 
> I am getting a lot better on the spikes believe it or not!





Plasmech said:


> ... *I have some big-azzed poplars to take down. Any words of wisdom on cutting poplar?* Is this stuff like super un-predictable?





Plasmech said:


> A little less straightforward...I *need to climb these big guys, probably 90 feet tall, and bomb out the top so the bottom 40 feet can be felled*.



Well then ... I can only tell you what I'd do ... but I'll need more particulars:

Is the stand all poplar?
Clearing only or thinning?
Gaff, DdRT, DRT, SRT?
What's your gound support like?
Can you bomb everything or need a speedline?
What's the terrain?
Any structures, fences, powerlines or other obstacles?
Why block down to 40ft?
Harvesting any lumber? - certainly not veneer or firewood?
40ft sounds like you'll truck out the spars?
What's the road structure like?
No heavy ground equipment?
Or, are you gonna parbuckle?
What's your rigging gear? - just bull rope & come-alongs?
What's your rigging plan?
Etc, etc, etc ...

Lots to consider when you're planning a job 

- Jack


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## Plasmech (Nov 17, 2009)

Jack,

-4 poplar trees, all removals. 

-nothing anywhere near the drop zone, it would be impossible to hit anything even if I wanted to. The trees are out in the open.

-ground support: sucks

-plan is to DRT ascend, gaff when/where necessary

-here's the interesting part...there's a huge gully that the guy wants the wood thrown down into...so everything goes down there. Not the way I would do it on my property but oh well...

-no power lines anywhere around

-don't own and heavy ground equipment, but I get a real good free workout.


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## pdqdl (Nov 17, 2009)

If there is nothing beneath the tree, why aren't you just cutting it down?

Why climb?


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## eljefe (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: bowline on a bight*

Say I want to install a 5/8" block on a bull rope using a bowline-on-a-bight. Only one of the two loops formed will fit into the attachment pin pulley. Is it acceptable to do this? Otherwise, what's a recommended knot for this application that will actually come out after she's loaded to several thousand pounds? This is a snatch block w/ come-along application by the way.


Hi, all. Plasmech, getting back to the original post, I can see that there might be instances in your set up where no knot might work. Simply pass one end of the anchor rope in one side of the block out the other and let the block sit in the middle of the line. This is the line you are using to anchor the block. Anchor the 2 ends of the rope around whatever the anchor is to be and let the block float to the midpoint of the rope. You would not have to worry about one side being loaded more heavily than the other. This would, I am sure, would not be the way to go with every job, but it might work for you here. Obviously, the working line-the lowering line or tensioning line- whatever rope you use in the block needs to be the weakest link. I would also mention that no knot is easier to untie than any other knot, or at least in my experience.
I also would mention that the SS 5/8 arborist block, it is made by CMI, is rated for 2,800 lbs WLL. It is a real nice block, I have one and use it alot, but several thousand lbs load is too high. Go for the 3/4' model of the same thing and you can use 5/8 rope in it no problem (as per conversation with Wes Spur). Then you can use 3/4 rope for the anchor rope and not have to do a dance to adhere to the weakest link rule. You really don't want the anchor to break and have that big hunk of metal come flying straight at you.
eljefe


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 17, 2009)

pdqdl said:


> If there is nothing beneath the tree, *why aren't you just cutting it down?
> 
> Why climb?*


:agree2: I'd drop 'em whole!!!

Me thinks it be for practice!!!

IMO there's only tree reasons to climb:
1) Pruning
2) Unsafe to drop the whole tree
3) Practice/recreation.

Practice is good ... *BUT THOSE ARE DAMN BIG TREES FOR PRACTICE!!!*

That being said ... Plas, please be wary of any advice you get from anyone who isn't standing shoulder to shoulder with you seeing the problems you're facing ... especially someone you don't know!!!


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## pdqdl (Nov 17, 2009)

Well...just about every climber needed some practice at just felling trees, too. 

I suspect climbing practice is not what is needed. Sometimes folks use _most_ the methods that _they know best_. If you need help choppin' & droppin' these trees, there is lots of help here at AS on that topic, too.

By the way: for that mid-line knot, try the man-harness knot. Putting a load on in the middle of a line is what it is designed to do, and it unties easily after heavy loading, unlike the alpine butterfly. Someday I'll get somebody here at AS to try it out...


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## SINGLE-JACK (Nov 17, 2009)

*Man-Harness Knot*


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