# Door Knocking/Sales and One liners.



## Ben Musha (Jan 17, 2015)

I know alot of people do not hit the roads and go d2d. I have met lots of guys who do not knock and stay busy. I'm sure word of mouth about a company doing really good work takes the leg work out of it. But I do knock doors as a small relatively new company. I don't mind doing it and find enough to stay busy. I was wondering if anybody else knocks as well and if you know any good "lines" to say. Or just anything relative to sales and how I can improve production on the sales end.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 17, 2015)

Only hacks door knock here.
Jeff


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Jan 17, 2015)

The only luck I have had with door knocking is when I'm grinding. On tree work the neighbors will come talk to you if they want work done. A yard sign will produce as much business as knocking on doors and is a lot more respectable.


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## mike515 (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't knock on doors but if you're going to, I wouldn't do it in a way where the person feels like you're expecting them to tell you right away if they need you to do something. I'd have a card or flier in hand and say something like "We're working down the street and doing what we can to get our name out there. If you ever need any work done, we sure would appreciate it if you kept us in mind". They may say "Sure". Then that's it. Says thanks and let it go if they don't initiate anything else. No standing there telling them about your qualifications, experience, etc. You should have that on the flier or card. You can also do door hangers. You might want to check into any local soliciting rules though.


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## Del_ (Jan 17, 2015)

If someone knocked on my door trying to sell tree work I'd figure they were scoping out the place to commit a future theft. Most people feel that way.


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## bigremovals (Jan 17, 2015)

ive learned that around mn just about everyone hits doors even the big companys... i have a sales guy that runs around hitting doors we get most of our jobs from it


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 17, 2015)

I had to do it once when it was deadsville with no calls coming in. What a waste of time. 95% of the people weren't home.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 17, 2015)

Not allowed to do it in most comunites here. No door to door solicitation. We have a company that does mass mailing and we run some billboards. Mostly word of mouth tho. Mailings are more geared twards treatment of trees.


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## TaoTreeClimber (Jan 17, 2015)

I never ever knock, but I wont hesitate to hang one of these on the front door. Never ever in the mail box. Just hang it on the door and move on.


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## CanopyGorilla (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm not above a knock. I started my own business and I need to pay mortgage. Most of our work comes from excellent word of mouth, referalls, and advertising, but if I see a dead tree in a yard I give two knocks then leave a card. If someone answers I usually say "hey, I just saw your dead tree, I give fair pricing, I am licensed and insured, here is my card, have a great day"...... Then I walk away. No pressure on the HO.


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## RajElectric (Jan 18, 2015)

Residential cold calling is frowned upon in Norfolk County Ontario, last winter storm some "tree companies" would go ahead, on their own, without homeowners knowledge, do a removal or taking down a dead branch and then demand payment. Seriously it happened. The local cops sent a message out that if anyone approaches you with unsolicited tree work to call the police. Brant Count Ontario, well, they are all broke, or cheap, or don't care. Door to door calls take a lot of time, with little results. Usually I will get 2 or 3 more tree jobs once someone see's me in their neighbours doing some work.


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## mckeetree (Jan 18, 2015)

jefflovstrom said:


> Only hacks door knock here.
> Jeff



Same here. Besides, around here anymore in most neighborhoods it will get the police called on you. Other ones it might earn you a beat down. We saw a guy get pepper sprayed last year. My neighbor has a sign that reads "If I didn't invite you here get your ass off my property now!"


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## Ben Musha (Jan 19, 2015)

mike515 said:


> I don't knock on doors but if you're going to, I wouldn't do it in a way where the person feels like you're expecting them to tell you right away if they need you to do something. I'd have a card or flier in hand and say something like "We're working down the street and doing what we can to get our name out there. If you ever need any work done, we sure would appreciate it if you kept us in mind". They may say "Sure". Then that's it. Says thanks and let it go if they don't initiate anything else. No standing there telling them about your qualifications, experience, etc. You should have that on the flier or card. You can also do door hangers. You might want to check into any local soliciting rules though.


Good stuff, this is exactly what I do, I let them know we are working in their area, and then politely ask if they would like a estimate on any trees on their property. Never pushing anything, only talking tree work if they want to. I'm a 22 yr old white kid with a baby face so I think that helps. I rarely get the cops called, so I rarely buy permits. though I am now since I'm climbing and opening up shop.


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## Ben Musha (Jan 19, 2015)

TaoTreeClimber said:


> I never ever knock, but I wont hesitate to hang one of these on the front door. Never ever in the mail box. Just hang it on the door and move on.


Damn dude that is a nice hanger.


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## Ben Musha (Jan 19, 2015)

mckeetree said:


> Same here. Besides, around here anymore in most neighborhoods it will get the police called on you. Other ones it might earn you a beat down. We saw a guy get pepper sprayed last year. My neighbor has a sign that reads "If I didn't invite you here get your ass off my property now!"
> HAHA **** ya. I rarely get called on since I wear reflective gear and I am super polite.


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## mckeetree (Jan 19, 2015)

HAHA **** ya. I rarely get called on since I wear reflective gear and I am super polite.


You would around here fuc3ker.


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## mattfr12 (Jan 19, 2015)

Some places around here they get pretty tense about it. Hangers and stuff would be a way for the cops just to know who did it. You can do it but even if your passing out flyers I think they want you to buy a permit even to stick a letter in a door jam. Ive bought mailing lists for the 10 closest zip codes I usually just use post cards they are slightly cheaper than an envelope.


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## mckeetree (Jan 19, 2015)

[QUOTE="mattfr12, post: 5161472, member: 18597" Hangers and stuff would be a way for the cops just to know who did it. [/QUOTE]

Exactly. We had a turd called Juan's First Choice Tree Care (an ******* I despise) putting door hangers in a no solicitation neighborhood. They came down on Juan hard charging him first with criminal trespass (to my delight) and when that wouldn't stick they charged him with littering and that did.


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## Aldegar (Jan 20, 2015)

I do door hangers sometimes, I don't knock. I figure that I would be highly irritated to have to deal with someone bothering me at home so I just leave the hanger like a ninja.


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## mckeetree (Jan 22, 2015)

Aldegar said:


> I do door hangers sometimes, I don't knock. I figure that I would be highly irritated to have to deal with someone bothering me at home so I just leave the hanger like a ninja.



I just don't want anybody fool assing around my front door that is not supposed to be there...my clients don't either and they are pretty vocal about it. My next door neighbor called me one afternoon about a year ago and told me some jackass was messing around at my front door. I told him I was thirty seconds from being home and hauled ass on to my driveway to find the guy had moved on to the neighbor on the other side of me. I walked over to the fence just in time to hear that neighbor tell the guy to get his trash off his door and get his ass off his property before he put the dog on him. It was some roofing company.


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## Aldegar (Jan 22, 2015)

mckeetree said:


> I just don't want anybody fool assing around my front door that is not supposed to be there...my clients don't either and they are pretty vocal about it. My next door neighbor called me one afternoon about a year ago and told me some jackass was messing around at my front door. I told him I was thirty seconds from being home and hauled ass on to my driveway to find the guy had moved on to the neighbor on the other side of me. I walked over to the fence just in time to hear that neighbor tell the guy to get his trash off his door and get his ass off his property before he put the dog on him. It was some roofing company.



Lol, yeah fiddling with another mans door knob is highly awkward. Around here everyone has lots of trees and will need tree work at some point or another, my door hanger includes a $75 off coupon so at least there is an incentive to call me and it's a good reminder about tree work that they have been putting off. Sometimes you need to be proactive to get work.


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## mckeetree (Jan 22, 2015)

Aldegar said:


> Lol, yeah fiddling with another mans door knob is highly awkward. Around here everyone has lots of trees and will need tree work at some point or another, my door hanger includes a $75 off coupon so at least there is an incentive to call me and it's a good reminder about tree work that they have been putting off. Sometimes you need to be proactive to get work.



It's probably a geographic thing. You go fooling around people's front doors down here and you might get your ass shot...by the homeowner or the cops.


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## Highclimber OR (Jan 23, 2015)

Yes it works if you know what you are doing, many guys kick it but I have had great success doorbelling. If I can't sign up at least 1000 dollars in 3 hours or less something is wrong. Smile be friendly just let them know you are working nearby and offer a discount. It's easiest if you spot legit tree problems you can resolve and let them know especially if it can be a hazard. Nice cards help I've just bid a long time I know how to read people well skills like that come in handy. If people generally like you that helps little things, be confident. Good luck


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## mckeetree (Jan 23, 2015)

mckeetree said:


> It's probably a geographic thing. You go fooling around people's front doors down here and you might get your ass shot...by the homeowner or the cops.



I should have added also it depends on how professional an outfit is. ISA and TCIA both strongly discourage door to door solicitation calling it extremely unprofessional. I know one guy in Tyler, Texas that thinks he is really involved in the ISA. He is not a certified arborist because, according to one of his employees, he has failed the certified arborist exam and the certified applicator exams about four times each. But then, the hypocritical S.O.B. knocks doors in Tyler. About three years ago he about got his legs chewed off by a big old mean ass dog.


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## mckeetree (Jan 23, 2015)

I got to thinking about it today and remembered there was somebody on here that got their ass handed to them over the door knocking deal but I can't remember who it was...it was about 2010 or so. They were taking up for door knockers and this particular person was also a big time pro cert. arborist and ISA guy. Someone copied and pasted some things from ISA and TCIA that frowned big time on door to door solicitation and best I can remember that member just flat left the forum forever.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 23, 2015)

mckeetree said:


> I got to thinking about it today and remembered there was somebody on here that got their ass handed to them over the door knocking deal but I can't remember who it was...it was about 2010 or so. They were taking up for door knockers and this particular person was also a big time pro cert. arborist and ISA guy. Someone copied and pasted some things from ISA and TCIA that frowned big time on door to door solicitation and best I can remember that member just flat left the forum forever.



That sounds familiar,,,was it here or was it on TW,,Pekka site? 
Jeff


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## mckeetree (Jan 24, 2015)

jefflovstrom said:


> That sounds familiar,,,was it here or was it on TW,,Pekka site?
> Jeff



It was here I'm pretty sure. What it all boils down to on that side of it is you can't condone or be a door to door solicitor and then pretend to be going along with ISA, TCIA or ASCA.


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## Sunrise Guy (Jan 25, 2015)

Did door hangers, years ago. Found my hit rate was about 2-3%. In the end, it wasn't worth it. I now have a yard sign with a coupon tube attached. That gets me far more jobs, when I'm working a site, and people can choose to stop and take a coupon. Door hanging gets folks riled up, to an extent, so it's just not worth it. I never knocked on doors. Folks around here might call the police.


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## mckeetree (Jan 25, 2015)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I never knocked on doors. Folks around here might call the police.




Folks around here WILL call the police.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 1, 2015)

I don't specifically door knock but if I am doing a job and see a tree in dire need of attention at a neighboring property I will use one of my 4x6 postcard/flyers and write an estimate on it and leave it on their door. Stick it and walk away...period. I have gotten a LOT of work from that because they have seen me at the neighbor's and they see what I did and how their property looked after I was done plus they have a readily available source for a referral by talking to the neighbor if they are so inclined. 
I door knocked for the first couple months I started in this biz (August 2013) and found (as has been stated) that the success rate was so low that I could likely do better writing my name and number in restroom stalls.

Plus...many people figure if you're door knocking you are broke and desperate and they try to price gouge you for huge discounts. My best success D2D has been on stumps after big storms...a month after the big storms.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 1, 2015)

HIGH QUALITY PROFESSIONAL LOOKING YARD SIGNS MAKE AN IMPACT!!!! Spend the money. I pay $10 each with the little wire H stand for 2 sided coroplast signs. Right now I have 8 signs in one neighborhood that I have been working in the past 2 weeks. The number of signs and the visual evidence of the work done are a testament to the people who drive by and they will call. But not if the sign looks like something your 12 year old made for you.

Also.....ADVERTISE!!!! PAY THE MONEY AND YOU WILL BE REWARDED!!! I do chipping and grinding work for 11 other small tree companies who have been in this biz for well over a decade each and don't have half the business I do. Last year I spent about $10K in print ads/mailers and it got me nearly $180K in gross sales. This year I am expanding my coverage area and my ads now cost me over $18K for the year. By averaging it out I should easily gross in excess of $250K this season. And I am just a one man operation with less than 2 years in this business in this town.

Just a note to the OP....I started in August 2013 with my pickup, a small trailer a Vermeer 252 grinder and a Husky 445 16 inch saw. I now have a Freightliner FL50 chipper truck, a Vermeer BC1000 12 inch chipper and went from the 252 stump grinder to a 352....and more saws and climbing and rigging gear than I can remember...and I was able to pay cash for all of it as I went. Growing is not difficult...getting business is not difficult...doing the work good enough to get called back and have the customers refer you to their family and friends is the difficult part. And I have found that the clean-up of the yard is a HUGE difference in sales. I see other guys who just rake a little and leave the yard littered with twigs and sawdust. When we leave it is raked, blown and cleaned to look as good or better than it did when we pulled up the first time. People love that and smile when they pay you!!!

And an FYI....I have not had a single ad yet this year but I have now done over $15K of work in the past 3 weeks...and ALL of it on referrals and repeat customers from last season...my very FIRST full season of work. My climber and most of my groundies have been doing this for many years and they said this is the busiest they have ever been in January and all of them have asked me when I am going to go to a payroll system so I can hire them all full-time. That is the next big step for me. 

And to think that my first job in this business was in March 2013 doing part-time work for a small local operation....anything is possible...just dream it...then go do it!! 

But do it better than the next guy.


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## mike515 (Feb 1, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> My climber and most of my groundies have been doing this for many years and they said this is the busiest they have ever been in January and all of them have asked me when I am going to go to a payroll system so I can hire them all full-time. That is the next big step for me.



I would advise you to make sure you take all of the real costs of having employees into consideration. Maybe you already know all about it but you're going to have more costs than just payroll if you are doing thing legitimately. You should talk with your accountant and insurance agent. You're going to have payroll/tax associated costs, a hefty work comp policy and increased premiums on your liability policy because the insurance carrier considers employees as added exposure.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 1, 2015)

Yup...already got the insurance guy on board and looking into it. My liability policy covers up to 4 workers already for anything they do as contract workers. The biggest item will be the work comp insurance. But that is a percentage of payroll and my agent says he looked at it and it's surprisingly low for me considering what we do. I have a buddy who owns a steel frame company that erects clear-span building frames like Wal-Marts and such and he says his high risk aerial workers cost him $150 for every $100 of payroll. That would really kill me as far as job costs!!

Got a decent accountant to deal with who is very informative and helpful as well. Now to get the steady work coming in that will allow me to do all of this.

I am already doing this as a legit company and all...I just don't have any permanent employees at this point. I am growing quickly so I am going to have to go this route soon no matter what I do. There is no avoiding it if I wish to grow my business and make something for my wife and kids to have when I'm no longer here.


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## mike515 (Feb 1, 2015)

I don't think your friend is being truthful about his work comp costs....or maybe there is a misunderstanding. I'm reading that as him paying 150% of payroll for work comp. 15% sounds a lot more likely.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 1, 2015)

That is what I thought when they told me I would run at about 6%...but he said it's extremely high for a small part of his workers because of cranes, overhead wires and accident rates in the industry...I kinda thought that was outrageous myself. But...I'm not an insurance guy and don't have much experience with actuarial tables in industries.


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## treecutterjr (Feb 2, 2015)

Lawn guys run at 5%-6% in ky. Tree Service's run in the high 20s - low 30s percentages. I would double check that. Sounds fishy. Every one would have workers comp if it was 6%. That means on $20,000 worth of payroll you would owe like $1200 bucks for your yearly policy. Unlikely for a tree work policy.


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## mckeetree (Feb 2, 2015)

treecutterjr said:


> Lawn guys run at 5%-6% in ky. Tree Service's run in the high 20s - low 30s percentages. I would double check that. Sounds fishy. Every one would have workers comp if it was 6%. That means on $20,000 worth of payroll you would owe like $1200 bucks for your yearly policy. Unlikely for a tree work policy.



Unlikely or just flat out unbelievable.


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## Jed1124 (Feb 2, 2015)

The company I work for is at 34% I know guys that have been quoted 41%.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 2, 2015)

WOW......that's not a small amount...that will slow down my equipment purchases...lol

As it was explained to me....workers Comp is not required here if you have 5 or less employees on the crew...I am usually smaller than that most days. On the days I run a big crew it is my crew and a crew I hire for the day - basically I hire an entire tree crew from another company with their equipment and all.


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## mckeetree (Feb 2, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> WOW......that's not a small amount...that will slow down my equipment purchases...lol
> 
> As it was explained to me....workers Comp is not required here if you have 5 or less employees on the crew...I am usually smaller than that most days. On the days I run a big crew it is my crew and a crew I hire for the day - basically I hire an entire tree crew from another company with their equipment and all.



The further you go the worse you get.


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## treecutterjr (Feb 2, 2015)

So if something happens and 1 of your "less than 5 guys" gets critically injured/ hurt who pays for those hospital bills?


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## mike515 (Feb 2, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> WOW......that's not a small amount...that will slow down my equipment purchases...lol
> 
> As it was explained to me....workers Comp is not required here if you have 5 or less employees on the crew...I am usually smaller than that most days. On the days I run a big crew it is my crew and a crew I hire for the day - basically I hire an entire tree crew from another company with their equipment and all.



There are a number of variables involved. If you hire another company....they are working for someone else and you send out a 1099 at the end of the year. But that means they have their own insurance and are acting as legitimate sub-contractors. When you get audited on your GL policy, they will ask for the names of sub-contractors and proof of insurance. If they are not legit and don't have insurance, any claim may come back on you. The next thing is....I don't know if it varies from state to state but in my state...if you have one employee, you have to carry work comp. Someone just starting out in this business in my state will not be able to get coverage from anyone so they have to go to the "pool". The "pool" exists because the law says you have to have coverage but nobody wants you because of a lack of history and potential exposure so the state requires all insurance carriers to basically take their turn in the "pool". Whoever is up next in line in the pool has to cover you but at much higher premiums. So that is where you end up with 20-30% or more. Theoretically, once you're established and have had a track record of no claims, you may be able to get out of the pool but if you have justified claims....probably not. Also, the more claims paid, the higher your premium. This is also true with your unemployment insurance to the state. You will have an opportunity to challenge claims on both work comp and unemployment and, if the claims aren't legit (obviously lots of guys will say almost anything to get benefits) you should fight them tooth and nail because your premiums will go up otherwise. Insurance is it's own ball of wax and you should try to be as well versed in the intricacies as your agent is. I know that the last time I switched carriers, I was talking to the new agency about my policies and they actually told me I should come to work for them selling insurance because they thought I knew more about it than some of their agents. It's your money and your business. You must know this stuff.


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## TC262 (Feb 3, 2015)

treecutterjr said:


> So if something happens and 1 of your "less than 5 guys" gets critically injured/ hurt who pays for those hospital bills?



Here in Wisconsin if a homeowner hires an uninsured contractor the homeowner is liable for medical expenses if anyone is hurt on the job site. If more people new about this these fly night guys would have a lot harder time robbing work from the legit company's doing it right.


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## treecutterjr (Feb 3, 2015)

I wanted to see if he would say that  I worked for a woman once that told me it happened to her. She hired a contractor to cut down a tree. The climber falls out of the tree and breaks his neck (doesn't die, just breaks neck). Contractor doesn't have insurance so the climber sues the homeowners insurance along with the contractor.


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## Griff93 (Feb 3, 2015)

We have the less than 5 employee's no workman's comp requirement here in Alabama as well. I only have a couple of employees. Most of the tree services around here are 4 man crews or less unless they are really big outfits. It's also extremely expensive in this area. I've gotten quotes at 55% of payroll. I flat out can't afford it and trying to pass on the cost to my customers prices me out of the market in this area. I'm already a bit higher than others due to paying my guys correctly (not 1099). I don't like it, I want to have workman's comp. I just simply can't afford it.


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## treecutterjr (Feb 3, 2015)

So seriously, how does that work. Like if you have a serious injury accident is it just common for the homeowners insurance to cover it? Or is there some other method?


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## Griff93 (Feb 3, 2015)

I've actually talked to an attorney about it. It sucks but basically it falls on the homeowners insurance and the business itself. I don't want a customer to have a claim. I don't want to loose all my business assets either. The last time I checked the annual premium for my three employees was about $36,000. That's right $36,000 per year in workman's comp insurance premiums. That doesn't cover me at all either. I kinda wish everybody was required to have workman's comp as it would level the field somewhat.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 3, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> WOW......that's not a small amount...that will slow down my equipment purchases...lol
> 
> As it was explained to me....workers Comp is not required here if you have 5 or less employees on the crew...I am usually smaller than that most days. On the days I run a big crew it is my crew and a crew I hire for the day - basically I hire an entire tree crew from another company with their equipment and all.



So you have 1 employee and he gets hurt on the job and you don't have worker's comp. What's he going to do? Sue your company and probably sue you personally. Think of insurance as protection against the unknown.


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## mike515 (Feb 3, 2015)

Griff93 said:


> I've actually talked to an attorney about it. It sucks but basically it falls on the homeowners insurance and the business itself. I don't want a customer to have a claim. I don't want to loose all my business assets either. The last time I checked the annual premium for my three employees was about $36,000. That's right $36,000 per year in workman's comp insurance premiums. That doesn't cover me at all either. I kinda wish everybody was required to have workman's comp as it would level the field somewhat.



That's pretty crazy! I think I'm paying 17-18% of payroll. I don't remember off the top of my head but it's somewhere in that range. One thing you might what to talk to the attorney about is incorporating the business but keeping all of the equipment in your name and leasing it to the business. I'm sure there is a way to protect most of the assets that way and you can probably find a tax break in there somewhere too. If you do that, there may also be a way to line your other policies up to protect you from a lawsuit. Or you could just legitimately contract the labor and require them to provide proof on insurance, pay their own taxes, etc. But that gets you walking another fine line if they are driving your trucks, wearing your uniform, having their hours dictated by you, etc. It doesn't mean they can't do any of those things but the IRS isn't definitive on the subject. They offer guidelines to be considered. But if they have their own insurance, that's a pretty big indicator of self-employment instead of employee.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 4, 2015)

It would be just like hiring temps from a service...I only provide the work and the uniforms they have to wear while working....they provide their own insurance and such??? That would be an idea...hiring through a temp service for seasonal labor....if they would have anyone who could actually do this work...lol


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## Griff93 (Feb 4, 2015)

mike515 said:


> That's pretty crazy! I think I'm paying 17-18% of payroll. I don't remember off the top of my head but it's somewhere in that range. One thing you might what to talk to the attorney about is incorporating the business but keeping all of the equipment in your name and leasing it to the business. I'm sure there is a way to protect most of the assets that way and you can probably find a tax break in there somewhere too. If you do that, there may also be a way to line your other policies up to protect you from a lawsuit. Or you could just legitimately contract the labor and require them to provide proof on insurance, pay their own taxes, etc. But that gets you walking another fine line if they are driving your trucks, wearing your uniform, having their hours dictated by you, etc. It doesn't mean they can't do any of those things but the IRS isn't definitive on the subject. They offer guidelines to be considered. But if they have their own insurance, that's a pretty big indicator of self-employment instead of employee.



We also had that discussion. My tree service is incorporated. Unless I'm proven to be personally negligent in my state they can't come after me personally. The problem with this is you have to be careful to maintain a separate entity. If you don't they can pierce the corporate vale even if you aren't personally negligent. Apparently owning all of the equipment and leasing it back to the company makes it where your corporate vale can be pierced. I don't want to lose my house over something that happens at work. I'd rather lose all of my company assets than lose that and my personal assets. I'd rather not lose any of them at all. I'd find a way to buy WC at 18% of payroll. I just plain can't afford it at the rates I've been quoted. I've gotten about 7 or 8 quotes so it's not just one agent that is way to high on it. I've never had a claim.


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## mike515 (Feb 4, 2015)

What if you also rent equipment to other companies or people? That makes it a legitimate separate business. Spend a few thousand bucks on some small power equipment....maybe some mowers, saws, one of those tiny chippers that a homeowner would buy, a couple of tillers, etc. Meet people by appointment and rent the stuff out. But it sounds like things vary from state to state because in my state, my earlier scenario is done all the time.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 4, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> It would be just like hiring temps from a service...I only provide the work and the uniforms they have to wear while working....they provide their own insurance and such??? That would be an idea...hiring through a temp service for seasonal labor....if they would have anyone who could actually do this work...lol



The people technically work for the temp agency, so they are covered by the temp agency's insurance (which you are paying for in the rate). 

Why would you pay the agency rate for labour. Their people are going to be fully insured plus you have to pay the agency profit. No nut left for you.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 4, 2015)

mike515 said:


> That's pretty crazy! I think I'm paying 17-18% of payroll. I don't remember off the top of my head but it's somewhere in that range. One thing you might what to talk to the attorney about is incorporating the business but keeping all of the equipment in your name and leasing it to the business. I'm sure there is a way to protect most of the assets that way and you can probably find a tax break in there somewhere too. If you do that, there may also be a way to line your other policies up to protect you from a lawsuit. Or you could just legitimately contract the labor and require them to provide proof on insurance, pay their own taxes, etc. But that gets you walking another fine line if they are driving your trucks, wearing your uniform, having their hours dictated by you, etc. It doesn't mean they can't do any of those things but the IRS isn't definitive on the subject. They offer guidelines to be considered. But if they have their own insurance, that's a pretty big indicator of self-employment instead of employee.




The court rulings up here essentially are "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck". So if the people look like employees, are treated like employees, then they are employees. 

We have had many employers try and hide behind the 'contractor' shield. The courts and Cdn Revenue Agency have kicked that one to the curb.


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## Single_Shooter (Feb 4, 2015)

Missouri is like Griff stated. A buddy of mine has a construction business. He leases trucks then leases them to his company. He also gets a salary from the company as a project manager. He also has his business licensed out of Arizona where he owns part of a home with his Dad so that is his business address. Has Arizona tags on the trucks as well. Don't know how he does it but his dad is LOADED so he can afford the high dollar business attorney...I'm sure his dad knows the ins n outs of it all.
I just need to get into it and see what it will all cost me. I would rather do it right than half-ass it forever. Just one big injury and lawsuit and you're out of business and possibly out of your home. It's a scary thought for me...I have 2 homes and both are paid for so I have a lot to lose.

And as far as Temps go they are employees of the temp agency...not who they are working for. You can send one back at lunch and get a different one by the afternoon if you need. So their WC insurance lies with the agency unless they can show negligence but that is a whole different animal than WC insurance.


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## mckeetree (Feb 4, 2015)

Lot of BS in this thread.


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## BC WetCoast (Feb 5, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> Missouri is like Griff stated. A buddy of mine has a construction business. He leases trucks then leases them to his company. He also gets a salary from the company as a project manager. He also has his business licensed out of Arizona where he owns part of a home with his Dad so that is his business address. Has Arizona tags on the trucks as well. Don't know how he does it but his dad is LOADED so he can afford the high dollar business attorney...I'm sure his dad knows the ins n outs of it all.
> I just need to get into it and see what it will all cost me. I would rather do it right than half-ass it forever. Just one big injury and lawsuit and you're out of business and possibly out of your home. It's a scary thought for me...I have 2 homes and both are paid for so I have a lot to lose.
> 
> And as far as Temps go they are employees of the temp agency...not who they are working for. You can send one back at lunch and get a different one by the afternoon if you need. So their WC insurance lies with the agency unless they can show negligence but that is a whole different animal than WC insurance.



Even a low priced business attorney will know how to do most of that stuff.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Feb 5, 2015)

1. Any scam will work until challenged in court. 

2. The IRS sued Microsoft several times in the 90s over the subcontractor status of its employees. Review the case law if you have any questions about the status of a subcontractor. You will realize quickly that you will be considered an employer if challenged in court. 

3. Pick your subcontractors wisely because you can become liable for them just like a homeowner if challenged in court. 

4. Setting up a corporation is not all it takes to be considered a corporation. To get the protections of a corporation it has to be ran like a corporation. Go to your local SBA or community college and find a mentor to guide you and become an officer of your corporations board of directors. If you do not have a professional business manager guiding you, your corporation will be considered a facade if challenged in court.


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## mike515 (Feb 5, 2015)

BuckmasterStumpGrinding said:


> 1. Any scam will work until challenged in court.
> 
> 2. The IRS sued Microsoft several times in the 90s over the subcontractor status of its employees. Review the case law if you have any questions about the status of a subcontractor. You will realize quickly that you will be considered an employer if challenged in court.
> 
> ...



All of this is true and I hope I didn't come across as implying you should do anything illegal or unethical. I was just tossing out ideas. I have no idea what the different state laws require but you should absolutely be on the right side of the law if anyone ever questions your operation. Honestly...I'm pretty surprised by any state not requiring work comp...even if it is only a handful of employees.


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## BuckmasterStumpGrinding (Feb 5, 2015)

Having a company to hold most of your assets and a separate company to conduct business under is considered running a shell company and won't hold up in court. If they are really two companies in two different lines of business they might hold up, but I wouldn't count on it. A lawyer will most likely prove they are both alter egos of the main shareholders and it will be you on the line without a corporate veil. The main purpose I see in shell companies is to discourage lawsuits. It cost more time and money for a lawyer to tie all your businesses to you. If a problem big enough to scare you comes along you will not be protected unless you settle before the person gets a lawyer. I think it is a better idea to save your money and try not to get sued.


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## Seedling345 (Feb 15, 2015)

Single_Shooter said:


> That is what I thought when they told me I would run at about 6%...but he said it's extremely high for a small part of his workers because of cranes, overhead wires and accident rates in the industry...I kinda thought that was outrageous myself. But...I'm not an insurance guy and don't have much experience with actuarial tables in industries.


Our insurance guy is as dumb as a box of rocks. He came on the job site to see us climb he can under us cutting with no hard hat or nothin we coulda told the guy it was ok to free climb and he would have bought it he insured roofers and wanted to do arborist insurance. Works for me but I couldn't believe he didn't read up on Osha standards for our work before diving in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## millbilly (Mar 8, 2015)

mckeetree said:


> Lot of BS in this thread.


You don't mean 15k, 3 weeks in Jan with a part time crew in St. Louis? Me, I personally will knock on a door. If it's an obvious hazardous condition and after looking at it over and over in my travels to my shop or around town. What kind of bothers me is, I have watched a hazardous condition for months, even years and then I drive by and someone did it and I know it could have been me. One of my best accounts occurred when I drove up to new housing development and knocked on the superintendents trailer, 12 years later I'm still doing his tree work.


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## greg jones (Mar 9, 2015)

well very interesting iam hoping word of mouth buisness card some flyers and google will work


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## Single_Shooter (Mar 9, 2015)

millbilly said:


> You don't mean 15k, 3 weeks in Jan with a part time crew in St. Louis?



Wow...should I feel insulted or something here? Likely not...but let's take a look at the facts....

Maybe I got my math wrong here....not sure how you see it, but $15K gross sales to me is about 6 - 7 full days of work for my little crew. Maybe a little more or less but it's definitely 7 days or less if I get lucky and score a good sale or two. And seriously....$15K in work is not that much work if you own all your equipment and you are charging appropriately.

That's not a lot of work for 3 weeks....and if I am not mistaken, but I could be wrong here, so please check this out and get back with us....less than 3 days of work in a week equates to *part time*....and with weather in the 30's and 40's here for a few weeks it was downright balmy for January.

We even worked today, on a Sunday, because a customer wanted to be home when we trimmed their trees. Trimmed 3 trees, then got to do 3 stumps for their neighbor and 2 more for another neighbor across the street. And one neighbor took all the limb wood from us for his wood stove so all we chipped was twiggy stuff. All in all a good day. $1,800 in gross sales - start at 9am - headed home by 2pm. That is a good day to me. And exactly why I ALWAYS have my stumper along for the ride. Just a side note....we have worked the past 5 days straight. 

My crew was just ecstatic because they got a full day of pay for a half day of work (plus I bought lunch) and they didn't even have to rope around any power line, fence, shed, farm house, dog house, out house or a house of any kind and not one single lawn ornament to speak of. And even happier because it was all in the front yard and they weren't stomping around in doggie land mines all morning. All in all a good day to kick off the coming of the warm season.


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