# Underbidding-Big Biz???



## CLEARVIEW TREE (Mar 31, 2009)

Looked at a removal of a large declining red-oak yesterday for an older couple on the lake. Gave em my price, talked a few minutes, and the lady tells me" Well you seem like a knowledgable guy, but this other guy said get estimates and call me back last and i'll see if i can beat the others" meaning basically he was gonna slash some off me and capitalize?????? This is really rediculous! She told me the name of the local biz and it wasn't suprising!!! I told her i'd keep it between us. But, man that's really unethical way of doing things. I reassured her to check there lic. and ins. I tell ya the economy is really bringin out the terds these days. Just wish i knew how to best combat that problem. Hopefully i'll pass my ISA exam here soon and further my credentials and just kill 'em with knowledge and professionalism.


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## TheLumberJack (Apr 1, 2009)

fight, fight, fight!


j/k


Ya the whole price matching method of business sure is annoying but it exists and there's no way around it other than what I believe you did was smart in educating the would-be customer in recognizing proper credentials and business coverages.

Good luck and I'd move on. If you were compelling enough this lady wil choose you.


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## ATH (Apr 1, 2009)

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> ..........Hopefully i'll pass my ISA exam here soon and further my credentials and just kill 'em with knowledge and professionalism.


Here is my opinion on the matter:
Choose your field... I am a Cert Arborist (only one other with overlapping market). I tell folks all the time, if you are looking at *tree care* it is important to find somebody who knows what they are doing and CA gives you some assurance of basic qualifications. That makes price shopping difficult because you never know if you are comparing apples-to-apples.

For removals - apples to apples is easy: the tree is gone. I can't tell you how I can do that better than the next guy. Find somebody who has insurance (and can show you a certificate) then shop for price. For us, that means do things that set us above (eg: cleaner job site, no lawn damage) and find ways to remove trees more efficiently than the competition.

I have been struggling for a few years whether I want to dive head first into the equipment it takes to do removals more efficiently as Emerald Ash Borer is getting ready to make a big run here.

Having said all of that...I agree with you that it is questionable (at best) to tell a client to shop around then call me and I'll decide if I want to beat the best price. It is one thing to bid a job and tell the client that there is flexibility to match another price...but to make others do the leg work for you is lame. If I were a potential client, I wouldn't hire anybody who behaved like that. If he garentees he will beat the price, have some fun and bid big removals at $100 and tell the client to call him because he garantees price matching..

Finally: funny story about one such local...maybe "apples to apples" isn't always "apples to apples". I was working at house of an acquaintence, this outfit shows up next door and starts working. (If I didn't need to get home I might have stuck around to watch a little longer for kicks--working from the top of a 40' ladder without tie-in or _any_ ppe...) Anyway, the first tree they dropped I thought "that homeowner must just hate trees, because that was a nice 12-inch dbh maple". Turns out, as I find out later talking to my client....OOPS! - that tree wasn't supposed to come down!!! (and he asked to be paid up front). I don't suspect they are competing for the same clients I am, so I'm not too worried about them - the longer they are around, the more people will start to look at real qualifications.


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## ozarktreeman (Apr 2, 2009)

:agree2:

got a call last summer from this gal, was in the area so dropped by quick looked at tree,nothin to it on lot line near woods just chop and drop.
gave her a price of 200.00 she said that sounds good.
SHE has the Balls to ask for written so she can give to the dollar general of services around here.
I start to get a little miffed,but stop and think why sure.
changed my mind will do a full clean up for $50.
she says thats low I say yea but other clown guarantees lower price.
don't ever call me again.

get a lot of the same thing around here,just do your best work and it will come to you.
hell i,ve even better priced some other guys out of job.don,t make a habit of it but it happens.


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## mckeetree (Apr 2, 2009)

We get those clowns with their lowest price deal through here every year. They never last long.


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## treemandan (Apr 3, 2009)

CLEARVIEW TREE said:


> Looked at a removal of a large declining red-oak yesterday for an older couple on the lake. Gave em my price, talked a few minutes, and the lady tells me" Well you seem like a knowledgable guy, but this other guy said get estimates and call me back last and i'll see if i can beat the others" meaning basically he was gonna slash some off me and capitalize?????? This is really rediculous! She told me the name of the local biz and it wasn't suprising!!! I told her i'd keep it between us. But, man that's really unethical way of doing things. I reassured her to check there lic. and ins. I tell ya the economy is really bringin out the terds these days. Just wish i knew how to best combat that problem. Hopefully i'll pass my ISA exam here soon and further my credentials and just kill 'em with knowledge and professionalism.



Isa Huh? I would be more impressed if you could do the job at the other guys price.
I don't mean to sound so glum but alas it seems that every litlle old lady I meet don't care what the paper says as long as its CHEAP! And in this case cheaper.
Who says they can do it cheaper? Just about everbody out there and maybe if you are not saying it now you will yourself... I hope not.
I would say it cept for one thing that it degrades the industry way to much.

You know people actually get mad when you charge them a couple grand for a job, which you do so well that it looks so easy to them. the think you are cheating them especially when someone comes along and auotmatically says they will do it cheaper. I blame the guy who started putting up those cheap plastic signs, they have groomed the world to believe that getting tree work done is like buying a car, a used car, a used car they don't really want to buy anyway and would much rather use the money to go to the beach. They have groomed the world to think that everyone of us is going to out bid each other for the job and our profit margins are outrageous. I blame those guys.
Bid for the economy I say, you know they are. And let your clients know how hard it is but you still are there.


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## STLfirewood (Apr 3, 2009)

I had a lady call me she had a good size maple in her back yard. She got 2 bids. I was the lowest at $1650. The other bid was $2k. It was 40"dbh and about 10ft up it went to 5 leaders. The climber spent a good 6 1/2 hours in it maybe a bit more. When e were done she was very thankful and said she had no idea how much work went into taking a tree like that down. She told me at first she couldn't understand why tree work was so much money now she does. I have to go back next spring to remove 6 more trees.

Scott


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## PurdueJoe (Apr 3, 2009)

I called my old boss today b/c I had a question and just to bs a little and we started talking about bidding work and he said that he had lost a couple of jobs to larger companies that are usually higher then he is. I'm not talking higher as in 200-400 but usually 600-800. He has been bidding work that would usually be 2k-2400 at 1400-1600 just to keep him and the guys working. I just got a call from an old roommate from college and we talked about our friends and it's not just tree care guys that are having problems.


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## rngrchad (Apr 4, 2009)

PurdueJoe said:


> I called my old boss today b/c I had a question and just to bs a little and we started talking about bidding work and he said that he had lost a couple of jobs to larger companies that are usually higher then he is. I'm not talking higher as in 200-400 but usually 600-800. He has been bidding work that would usually be 2k-2400 at 1400-1600 just to keep him and the guys working. I just got a call from an old roommate from college and we talked about our friends and it's not just tree care guys that are having problems.




Purdue Joe, you bring up an excellent point, it is not just tree-guys that are having problems. I work in the Demolition/Construction/Scrap Metal Hauling industry 5-6 6 days a week. There are a ton of other "newer" companies, uninsured, running low-end equipment and non-cdl non certified equipment operators working illegally and for cheap. It's dog-eat-dog. Our company has lost many contracts over the last 6 months, only to have them come back around and resume their work-agreements because those other low-end cheap contractors just couldn't work at the professional level that our company has done from the start by using qualified-insured cdl operators with clean driving records and no criminal history. Sounds silly maybe, but we're staying busy, and the higher overhead from our newer equipment is in the end actually been a huge asset over our competitors. I know it's not tree work, but it just goes to show, if you got good people working for you, those low-buck transient tree men shouldn't hurt you too much. And if you arborists keep crying about how much work your losing from those type of folks, just be sure to realize, you are not the only industry suffering. The tougher things get, the cheaper crews will be willing to work. One of the best things I've learned is: It COSTS money just to bid a job simply to be working. If there is little profit in it, let the transient el-cheapo treekids do the work. Because in the end, if you bid low just to be working, all you'll end up with is a sore back and unneeded stress on your equipment all for very little if any profit.


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## Taxmantoo (Apr 4, 2009)

So some tree services are starting to act like car salesmen?

"Give me everybody else's price and let me decide if I want to beat the lowest guy by $50". Good deal if you can get the customer to lay it out for you that way.


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## Raymond (Apr 4, 2009)

STLfirewood said:


> I had a lady call me she had a good size maple in her back yard. She got 2 bids. I was the lowest at $1650. The other bid was $2k. It was 40"dbh and about 10ft up it went to 5 leaders. The climber spent a good 6 1/2 hours in it maybe a bit more. When e were done she was very thankful and said she had no idea how much work went into taking a tree like that down. She told me at first she couldn't understand why tree work was so much money now she does. I have to go back next spring to remove 6 more trees.
> 
> Scott


Yeah I like when they watch. They have no problem paying when they see the work it take to do the job.

On the other hand we removed a maple that sounds about like what you're describing yesterday. The guy was nice but a dork. When it come to pay up, he jokingly said..."You did say you'd do it for the firewood right?" I didn't even smile and told him that ain't even funny!


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## tomtrees58 (Apr 4, 2009)

PurdueJoe said:


> I called my old boss today b/c I had a question and just to bs a little and we started talking about bidding work and he said that he had lost a couple of jobs to larger companies that are usually higher then he is. I'm not talking higher as in 200-400 but usually 600-800. He has been bidding work that would usually be 2k-2400 at 1400-1600 just to keep him and the guys working. I just got a call from an old roommate from college and we talked about our friends and it's not just tree care guys that are having problems.


:agree2:tom trees


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## HorseShoeInFork (Apr 4, 2009)

PurdueJoe said:


> I called my old boss today b/c I had a question and just to bs a little and we started talking about bidding work and he said that he had lost a couple of jobs to larger companies that are usually higher then he is. I'm not talking higher as in 200-400 but usually 600-800. He has been bidding work that would usually be 2k-2400 at 1400-1600 just to keep him and the guys working. I just got a call from an old roommate from college and we talked about our friends and it's not just tree care guys that are having problems.





rngrchad said:


> The tougher things get, the cheaper crews will be willing to work. One of the best things I've learned is: It COSTS money just to bid a job simply to be working. If there is little profit in it, let the transient el-cheapo treekids do the work. Because in the end, if you bid low just to be working, all you'll end up with is a sore back and unneeded stress on your equipment all for very little if any profit.





tomtrees58 said:


> :agree2:tom trees



I am around and associated with folks in the heavy construction industry. For the past 10+ years it has been blow and go, bids up over projected cost, not enough equipment or manpower to even get the jobs. There were alot of people out there doing excavation, utility, commercial construction, etc. that had no business experience let alone construction experience. These people were getting big $$$$ jobs at whatever they wanted to bid and winning because no one else had time to do it. Fast forward to present day. Most of these goon squad construction outfits are belly up and the "good guys" are scrounging every centimeter of the USA for work just to survive. Bids are coming in millions of dollars under estimates. The spreads are very hard to figure. Some of them are literally throwing themselves on a grenade hoping it doesn't go off.


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