# Windsail reduction--effective or waste of time



## southsoundtree (Dec 31, 2008)

I've heard different things about windsail reduction.

some say its the key, others a waste, others negatively affecting the tree due to lost photosynthetic potential, lost energy stores, and wounds to deal with. 

Some people strip out the inner canopy that they can reach from the bole, others remove whole branches back to the bole, others branch reduction/ limb end work. 

Does anyone have any research about different treatments for different types of trees?

Anecdotal evidence?


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## 1I'dJak (Dec 31, 2008)

well the forest industry here in bc puts money into reducing windsail along the edges of some of their cuts....studies performed by a fellow named stephen mitchell seemed to point that this led to less windthrow...however, overall health of the tree isn't as important to the foresters as keeping an edge... We top or spiral prune... the spiral prunes don't look pretty...definetly not residential standards...Personally I have visually seen and felt the difference in a wind, being at the top of a 'windfirmed' as to one not treated.


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## RedlineIt (Dec 31, 2008)

southsoundtree,

There has been quite a bit of research done on *windfirming* in British Columbia as it relates to preventing windthrow along the edges of logging cutblocks. Here is one, reduced to the basics for general orientation purposes:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/training/00015/lesson5/5-print.htm

Anecdotally, I've revisited some large firs I have thinned residentially, and I approach it as a spiral prune and thorough crown cleaning, removing anything crossed up, rubbing, cracked, growing into a large mat and of course all the deadwood. Any heavily levered branches I don't want to remove get an end weight reduction. Nothing looks the worse for it so far.

RedlineIt


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## RedlineIt (Dec 31, 2008)

1I'dJak,



> ... the spiral prunes don't look pretty...definetly not residential standards...



You must be doing A spiral prune differently in the bush than I do it residentially. Most my clients think the tree looks great, "All cleaned up like that."

RedlineIt


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## clearance (Dec 31, 2008)

Jak and Redline are right, it works. I have done it, seen my share of big blowdown and seen the windfirmed trees still standing.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 31, 2008)

Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.


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## 1I'dJak (Dec 31, 2008)

a forestry prune is way diff't then a resi prune...forestry pruning is all about production an minimizing hangers, so you often skin up a side to have an area to send your branches...plus we're swinging over from tree to tree with our climb line and a grapple with 7mil line... So you often skin up the side of the tree you're gonna be swinging from, so you got a good spot to throw your grapple...


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## ropensaddle (Dec 31, 2008)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
> Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.


Yep crossing branches,poor attachments first then careful thinning and
keeping structure very important. I always try to leave enough to not lions 
tail and try to take undesirable leave a desirable when thinning and it seems
to come out very well in spring flurry.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 31, 2008)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.



So true, since any tree will fail, at least partially under the wrong conditions, we are there to decrease the risk of failure. 

I've worked enough storms where prior pruning appeared to have saved trees where neighboring trees were devastated. 



> Any heavily levered branches I don't want to remove get an end weight reduction.



To me this is the key, weather it is coniferous or deciduous. Most trees carry a surplus of dynamic mass (photosynthetic to include younger bark) so cyclical pruning does not harm. 

If the tree is highly stressed from either biotic or abiotic factors, then adding the stress of pruning may force it into the "spiral of death" or a defensive decline. 

Old trees can be pushed from stasis to senescent decline.

The trick is to get to the tips and avoid work on the inner canopy. Reductions should be made with an eye to dynamics and moment of bend. 

Trees may be self optimizing, but they can only add for current loading. New foliage, seed loads, and future weather cannot be a factor in optimization since it is a natural process. 

A good practitioner can use structural improvements (as mentioned above) in with the concept of increasing stability. I would add modifying growth direction where lower canopy is conflicting/competing/crowding inner and upper canopy


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## RedlineIt (Dec 31, 2008)

1I'dJak,



> a forestry prune is way diff't then a resi prune...forestry pruning is all about production an minimizing hangers, so you often skin up a side to have an area to send your branches...plus we're swinging over from tree to tree with our climb line and a grapple with 7mil line... So you often skin up the side of the tree you're gonna be swinging from, so you got a good spot to throw your grapple...



Got it. So my resi method of tying a limb off with slings, cutting it, rapping down a bit to haul it into the trunk, then dicing it up into chuckable pieces would be just a wee bit time consuming... 


Old Chip,

Given that the OP southsound is from WA, I figured he was asking about excurrent trees, specifically big west coast conifers. I could be wrong. But you are absolutely correct that lion-tailing is setting a tree up for failure, for sure.


RedlineIt


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## southsoundtree (Dec 31, 2008)

RedlineIt said:


> 1I'dJak,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes excurrent trees primarily. 
The one "method" that seems most debunked is the inner canopy removal/ liontailing. I think that this is what people can reach when they are only climbing conifer with lanyards. 

Some people site Dr. Ed Gilman's work as evidence against windthinning/ windsail reduction. 

A lot of anecdotal evidence for WSR so far in this thread. 

Anecdotally, flush cuts and topping were good answers to problems in the past, though over time this has changed. Is WSR another of these??

It sure is being performed, though is it really a good practice?

What about energy absorbtion/ dissipation by limbs, and what happens to trees that have had some of these absorbers removed??




End-weight reduction--- is its purpose to reduce the likelihood of windthrown trees or just reduce limb breakage? Opinions.


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## southsoundtree (Dec 31, 2008)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> Taller trees with all sectional leads attached closer to the base present a greater wind-sail hazard when lion-tailed. They are better served with slight crown-reduction & responsible thinning.
> Trees with scaffold-branches present no wind-sail hazard when properly pruned. Crown-reduction would be rare. Exceptions might include high-winds or ice-storms.



OC-

What do you mean about high-winds and ice-storms as exceptions. That's the real problems that people are trying to figure out solutions to. 

We get lots of wind up here. Vary rarely snow and ice, as compared to other parts of the country, however we just go out from under record snowfall. There was an ice storm here about 12 years back. Trees failing under these conditions is what panics people, and causes them to seek out "expert" opinions. Would you elaborate, please?


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## southsoundtree (Dec 31, 2008)

*RE: spiral pruning*

Would people elaborate on spiral pruning for forestry and residential settings, please? 

Methods, purposes, reasons for these methods being the ones used--I guess that is to say there origins and any backing for them.


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## clearance (Dec 31, 2008)

southsoundtree said:


> Would people elaborate on spiral pruning for forestry and residential settings, please?
> 
> Methods, purposes, reasons for these methods being the ones used--I guess that is to say there origins and any backing for them.



Forestry windfirming is only to prevent trees from blowing down into creeks and other riparian areas and staying alive untill the understory grows up. This is so the creek stays shaded, mainly. It is just whack off about 20% of the limbs and top it at about 6"-8". It is not pretty, not approved by some, but who cares, its all about production and keeping the riparian area intact. 

Forestry is miles and miles of trees, by a couple of hundred feet wide. It ain't one or two trees in someones yard, for that you can spurless around and take all day.


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## frodo (Dec 31, 2008)

i thinned the crown in a mature acer sacarum today about 40in dbh . i feel that i extended the life of this tree. it was located fifteen ft. away from a home and had never been pruned. i feel it was either only remove dead dying diseased broken rubbing and then let a big storm break half the top out. or thin it and hope that everything compartmentalizes well. i feel the latter is the lesser of the two evils. if i were to thin a juvenile tree i feel i would not need to remove as much canopy


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## TreeTopKid (Dec 31, 2008)

southsoundtree said:


> I've heard different things about windsail reduction.
> 
> some say its the key, others a waste, others negatively affecting the tree due to lost photosynthetic potential, lost energy stores, and wounds to deal with.
> 
> ...



There was a study titled _The Effects of Pruning on Drag and Bending Movement of Shade Trees_ in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry. Scientific Journal of the ISA. Volume 34 No4 July 2008.

It was was an interesting article, and it showed that there were a lot of variables to apply with regards to species, size/dimension of the crown, wind velocity, and mass (tree mass). For example wind speed is often substantially greater than at the base therefore removing the lower branches would less effectively reduce drag than reduction pruning. 

In the conclusion it also noted that "pruning recommendations cannot be developed exclusively in light of mechanical considerations. Physiological considerations are also important as are the incidence of decay and regrowth after pruning. Further studies are needed to help determine pruning recommendations in terms of species, age, health, site conditions, tree risk, and aesthetics".

It's well worth you reading as there are a lot of hard facts, and statistics pertaining to particular species. I hope this helps.


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## OLD CHIPMONK (Dec 31, 2008)

In my opinion.......residential or institutional topping, lion-tailing or improper use of a branch-bark collar, leads to insect infestation, nutrient deficiency, heart-rot & the eventual demise of once healthy specimens.  
......Icestorms.....Hurricanes....Tornadoes......Floods.....Lightning -strikes.....to me, are an Act of God. Unfortunately, severe damage during catastrophic events is not preventable. We agree to disagree.......:agree2: 

The knowledge & expierience base afforded by this site ranks 2nd. to none. A step above most......like Viagara..... best of all....FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Many oppinions from members are given thru....Wisdom....something learned thru life.... such as...... done that.....been there.....works for me....... old school...... shade-tree mechanics.....etc. Never discount old age......
just consider it History......like yesterday's posts

Your comments ............... ALWAYS WELCOME !!!!!!!!!!!

... .... MAY I WISH ALL OF YOU A " HAPPY & PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR "..... .....


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## ropensaddle (Dec 31, 2008)

frodo said:


> i thinned the crown in a mature acer sacarum today about 40in dbh . i feel that i extended the life of this tree. it was located fifteen ft. away from a home and had never been pruned. i feel it was either only remove dead dying diseased broken rubbing and then let a big storm break half the top out. or thin it and hope that everything compartmentalizes well. i feel the latter is the lesser of the two evils. if i were to thin a juvenile tree i feel i would not need to remove as much canopy



Yes sir that is fact if pruned proper as a young tree to develop structure
and train the tree many future problems could be minimized. Unfortunately
we get them many times after a hack has mutilated them and have to focus
merely on risk reduction and preservation. It is a shame imo of course some
times you come to a yard that has had previous proper care and you have
little to do.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Dec 31, 2008)

OLD CHIPMONK said:


> The knowledge & expierience base afforded by this site ranks 2nd. to none. A step above most......like Viagara..... best of all....FREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



So we give you a chubbie


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## jomoco (Jan 1, 2009)

Interesting question that a very old and wise woman answered best when I curiously asked her why she had bowling balls tied to the ends of the lower lateral branches of her large eucalyptus trees?

She answered, " I want those branches to grow plenty of muscle so I can hang big potted plants on them without breaking them, they need dynamic weight loads applied to them to build that muscle, just like us!"

I agreed with her as I marveled at her accurate insight and analogy.

jomoco


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## ropensaddle (Jan 1, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Interesting question that a very old and wise woman answered best when I curiously asked her why she had bowling balls tied to the ends of the lower lateral branches of her large eucalyptus trees?
> 
> She answered, " I want those branches to grow plenty of muscle so I can hang big potted plants on them without breaking them, they need dynamic weight loads applied to them to build that muscle, just like us!"
> 
> ...



:hmm3grin2orange: new methods we can add to our portfolio but if we do
bowling ball stock would go up  a tree full of bowling balls to build
tension and compression wood lol.


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## jefflovstrom (Jan 1, 2009)

As you can see, I don't post alot, but like to read you guys stuff. Anyway, in my experience, the retention of parent wood is the main factor. There are eucs in Corpus Christie that stand after hurricanes due to wind sail reduction and retention of parent wood.
Jeff Lovstrom
Good topic, though


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## kano (Jan 1, 2009)

The way I see it is that taking the lower branchs can in fact raise the chance of windthrow in some way, You are taking away some sail true, but you are also taking away from the Axiom of Uniform Stress (ref:Claus Mattheck) plus you are also creating a higher leverage, I feel it is much more efficient to reduce the length of the branches, not to much that you stress the tree but just enough to make a differance, and where possible depending on species reduce the height.
As mentioned by some of the other guys dead, crossing over, damaged and week branches should be the first to go if even only them,
This is only my opinion


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## ropensaddle (Jan 1, 2009)

Pruning and phc has too many variables for a one size fits all. the plants genetic potential combined with the environment and the individual plants growth rate all play a huge part in my decisions. The fact that the same species can according to the growing conditions, grow completely out of the species normal genetic potential and form; stresses the need for plant by plant care. The one constant is our need, as professionals, to make careful site by site analysis before a systematic approach is made. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 2, 2009)

> Pruning and phc has too many variables for a one size fits all.





> As mentioned by some of the other guys dead, crossing over, damaged and week branches should be the first to go if even only them,



The dogmatic response of dead and crossing can increase risk of failure too. 

Trees with heavy deadwood loads can have moment of bend and dynamic loading radically changed, to the point where you have a _de facto_ lionstail.

Oftentimes a crossing union can become support for the upper branch, as co mingled canopies with a lot of little crossings can support a large low limb.


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 2, 2009)

[QUOT. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The dogmatic response of dead and crossing can increase risk of failure too.
> 
> Trees with heavy deadwood loads can have moment of bend and dynamic loading radically changed, to the point where you have a _de facto_ lionstail.
> 
> Oftentimes a crossing union can become support for the upper branch, as co mingled canopies with a lot of little crossings can support a large low limb.



:agree2: However heavy dead wood loads could suggest specimen is in a
mortality spiral. I don't believe I will recommend leaving many dead limbs
for safety.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> [QUOT. Many of you are way more skilled in this process than I and even if the known is related to the sometimes uncaring or misunderstanding client, does not mean they will accept a minimal intrusive treatment. What do we do with that? I mean when they expect a differance but the best thing for the tree is light pruning and monitoring how do you sell that to person's wanting change over fears of a failing tree? I also ask should you, liability wise?



I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.[/QUOTE]

Thanks good advise at least I am not alone


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 2, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> :agree2: However heavy dead wood loads could suggest specimen is in a
> mortality spiral.



Not necessarily, it could be typical for the species to hold deadwood. Honey locust is a good example, and a way to approach the species is to do a hazard deadwooding and light tip thin, vs getting all the deadwood out on the first trim ever.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2009)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Not necessarily, it could be typical for the species to hold deadwood. Honey locust is a good example, and a way to approach the species is to do a hazard deadwooding and light tip thin, vs getting all the deadwood out on the first trim ever.



I can see your point but could never sell it here lol.


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## RedlineIt (Jan 2, 2009)

Just to get this topic back to firming big west coast conifers:

You need to start at the very top with secateurs, or a pole pruner if you're timid. Leave wind-sail up there, you've lost the whole point.

On your way down, you need to remove or subordinate any co-doms, eliminate branches that mat with others, reduce end weight to prevent limb breakage and relieve rotational stresses.

The point is to create a tree that the wind blows through, and doesn't get blown around.

RedlineIt


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## M.D. Vaden (Jan 2, 2009)

This will be an interesting subject.

I believe the thinning can help some trees stand better and not break as much, but on the other hand, in regards to not falling over, this also might say something about the root system or soil.


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## ropensaddle (Jan 2, 2009)

M.D. Vaden said:


> This will be an interesting subject.
> 
> I believe the thinning can help some trees stand better and not break as much, but on the other hand, in regards to not falling over, this also might say something about the root system or soil.



I would bet more to be said of soil conditions and good root allocations of the trees use of energy, to have the greatest factor in failure of the stem. As in any construction the foundation is the uppermost concern to structural integrity


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 2, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> I think a lot of us wrestle with that one! I always make sure that the customer is aware of all the facts pertaining to their tree, but any decision they make regarding work being carried out, or not is ultimately theirs. If I really consider the tree to be a liability I always make sure I put in writing (regardless of whether it's a paying consultation or not) my concerns about their tree followed by a disclaimer. At least then if anything were to go 'pear shaped' you have legal documentation that they decided not to act on your advice.



Thanks good advise at least I am not alone[/QUOTE]

We're definitely not alone. I have had so many conversations about this with people, and all worry about the same thing. Couple that with the fact some body who is prepared to take legal action is usually prepared to say just about anything to get their settlement makes it a very worrying prospect (try not to resort to sleeping tablets LOL!).


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 3, 2009)

RedlineIt said:


> On your way down, you need to remove or subordinate any co-doms, eliminate branches that mat with others, reduce end weight to prevent limb breakage and relieve rotational stresses.



I find cone loading a big problem too


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## treejon (Jan 3, 2009)

I remember seeing a seminar with this guy sometime back at an ISA meeting, his set up is pretty impressive. He's got a giant wind machine. Most of the studies are limited to smaller trees though. Still fairly interesting I think.

http://www.ihc.fiu.edu/

just search for trees on the site, have fun sifting through all the info.


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## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

Thinking you somehow know better than the tree, which way, how tall, or how thick it should be is presumptuous and preposterous.

That very windsail that you mistakenly assume causes problems is the very dynamic force distribution system forcing the greatest leverage lower in the tree into the very wood big enough to take the strain and remain standing on it's lateral roots.

Branches in close proximity to each other support each other in high winds, effectively limiting their range of motion before encountering support from it's nearby neighbor.

If the dang tree could talk it would beg you to keep your presumptuously mistaken azz out of it and leave it alone until you really understand wht the hell you're doing.

When you finally realise that trees are far better off without us around, you will have taken the first step in becoming a journeyman arborist.

Work with nature, learn from it, enhance it and leave your mistaken assumptions at the door that's always open.

jomoco


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Thinking you somehow know better than the tree, which way, how tall, or how thick it should be is presumptuous and preposterous.



This assumes volition in the growth of the tree, since i do not believe that, I do know better then the tree. 



> Work with nature, learn from it, enhance it and leave your mistaken assumptions at the door that's always open.



I do not believe that the assumptions are mistaken.

Most trees evolved as communal organisms, and would have shed their lower limbs as they grew in a stand or forest. Large low limbs can compete with upper canopy in open grown forest type trees, which may cause structural problems down the road.

Trees are nodal networks, they increase mass around the nodes that add more to the system. Quite often this increase in mass can compromise the either the integrity of the tree, or its sustainable usefulness in a landscape setting.

Yes we should take the growth habits of the species (and the cultivar in many landscape plants, fastigiate cvs. are a very good example of this) whenever possible. Some people parse it as pruning is working within these boundaries, and trimming is the exception where you work within the needs of the landscape. eg, we prune for long term health and structural formation, and trim for building and utility clearance.


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## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

Then let me give you an example of a great arborist emulating nature instead of making a mistaken assumption.

Danny Simpson is the chief arborist at the SD Zoo. He has had the good fortune to travel the world and see firsthand a wide range of tree species in their natural settings, their habits and sometimes unique characteristics.

He applied this knowledge to a few Moreton Bay figs at the zoo with huge spreads by straffing the lower nodules on the bottoms of the lower lateral limbs at carefully calculated points with a razor causing it to drip white sap. He would then place 3 inch perforated PVC tubes stuffed with peet moss directly below and in contact with the wound going straight down to the ground, then placing drip irrigation directly above the wound so it would drip down into the peet moss tubes.

This technique in this and other species of trees triggers the growth of aerial roots from the straffed nodes that will grow straight down these tubes and take root in the ground eventually completely engulfing the tubes. This means of natural support not only increases the tree's structural ability, it also provides it with nourishment and water to grow ever larger over hundreds of years time.

Now compare this technique with that of the presumptuous arborist that cables that same branch for a perceived fault, without maintenance every 20-30 years tha cable becomes a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and achieve exactly the opposite of it's intended purpose of enhancing the tree's structural strength. When that cable degrades and fails it has the potential of splitting that tree in half.

I think Danny's approach is brilliant in that it emulates nature as well as lasts the entire lifespan of the tree, truly a symbiotic relationship that mother nature can smile about.

jomoco


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## ropensaddle (Jan 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Then let me give you an example of a great arborist emulating nature instead of making a mistaken assumption.
> 
> Danny Simpson is the chief arborist at the SD Zoo. He has had the good fortune to travel the world and see firsthand a wide range of tree species in their natural settings, their habits and sometimes unique characteristics.
> 
> ...



Interesting , how does it relate to concerns a client has for their thick
and growing Bradford pear? While I agree nature is the best teacher in
the case of the Bradford pear we have been taught over and over it
is and inferior species, that was also a tampering with nature product.
It takes all factors to determine the best plan, however I have few 
customers that will pay for that time to be taken they want it cut,
or trimmed to their idea of what they believe it needs. I am envious 
of some of you that must have customers that will pay you for time
with a hand lens and risistograph. I cherish a customer here that 
will actually take the time to listen and pay for proper care. I have not
found that magical customer yet willing to pay a living to care for his trees.


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## treeseer (Jan 3, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I am envious
> of some of you that must have customers that will pay you for time
> with a hand lens and risistograph. I cherish a customer here that
> will actually take the time to listen and pay for proper care. I have not
> found that magical customer yet willing to pay a living to care for his trees.



You will when you get certified. They will find you!

Nodal networks, organisms without volition, JPS you da man!

Trees in forests don't need us so much, but clear around them and pollute them and stress them and yes our assumptions are needed. Great story about triggering aerial roots--that would work on other sp. too...


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## TreeTopKid (Jan 3, 2009)

TreeTopKid said:


> There was a study titled _The Effects of Pruning on Drag and Bending Movement of Shade Trees_ in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry. Scientific Journal of the ISA. Volume 34 No4 July 2008.
> 
> It was was an interesting article, and it showed that there were a lot of variables to apply with regards to species, size/dimension of the crown, wind velocity, and mass (tree mass). For example wind speed is often substantially greater than at the base therefore removing the lower branches would less effectively reduce drag than reduction pruning.
> 
> ...





EDIT TO ABOVE POST : in Paragraph 2 it should read 'For example wind speed is substantially greater AT HEIGHT than at the base therefore removing the lower branches would less effectively reduce drag than reduction pruning. Apologies.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 3, 2009)

jomoco said:


> Thinking you somehow know better than the tree, which way, how tall, or how thick it should be is presumptuous and preposterous.
> 
> That very windsail that you mistakenly assume causes problems is the very dynamic force distribution system forcing the greatest leverage lower in the tree into the very wood big enough to take the strain and remain standing on it's lateral roots.
> 
> ...



If trees were left to nature and in their natural setting then an arborist wouldn't need to develop modification techniques. For example, I've been consulting with a developer who it putting in a planned community in what was a second growth conifer forest (Red cedar, Douglas fir, western hemlock) up to 160" tall. Largest diameter was about 4'. So most of the trees were tall and skinny with no taper and a crown size of less than 30% of total height. Growing in a forest setting these trees (particularily the codominant layer) are supported by their neighours, but once the land is cleared for housing, the edge trees are now subjected to wind stresses they were never subjected to before. Their stem or root growth is different than an open grown tree. 

Now, as the arborist, you need to make modification because the environment has changed. Unfortunately, stripping the forest edge back to a safe distance isn't always an option due to planning or environmental regulations, so tree modification prescriptions have to be made. At this point, in this situation, windsail reduction is the most viable one I've seen.


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## jomoco (Jan 3, 2009)

BC WetCoast said:


> If trees were left to nature and in their natural setting then an arborist wouldn't need to develop modification techniques. For example, I've been consulting with a developer who it putting in a planned community in what was a second growth conifer forest (Red cedar, Douglas fir, western hemlock) up to 160" tall. Largest diameter was about 4'. So most of the trees were tall and skinny with no taper and a crown size of less than 30% of total height. Growing in a forest setting these trees (particularily the codominant layer) are supported by their neighours, but once the land is cleared for housing, the edge trees are now subjected to wind stresses they were never subjected to before. Their stem or root growth is different than an open grown tree.
> 
> Now, as the arborist, you need to make modification because the environment has changed. Unfortunately, stripping the forest edge back to a safe distance isn't always an option due to planning or environmental regulations, so tree modification prescriptions have to be made. At this point, in this situation, windsail reduction is the most viable one I've seen.



A valid point, well taken in that it acknowledges it's a man made problem being addressed by man that is inflicted on the forest to benefit man at the expense of the cleared trees.

Arborists do their best hopefully to accomodate trees to mans flawed ideas of a sustainable environment for them.

Erythrina caffra the african coral tree in almost every socal community is a perfect example of a marvelously exotic softwood, almost succulent like tree that almost every commercial climber who's ever climbed one has either fallen out of completely or broken out of completely. In their natural settings they are drought resistant requiring minimal water and nutrients to survive and sprout their huge clusters of crimson orangish flowers each year.

But plopped into the typical socal landscape they are overwatered, over fertilized, planted in lawns where they go totally ape crazy growing at unbelievable rates of speed such that every sping and early summer they basically self destruct by the hundreds and thousands unless they are pruned back hard every six months. These trees in these unnatural settings being pruned so hard so frequently never seem to flower because of all the new tertiary sprouting. Each early summer here in socal is coral breakout season, and climbers breakout and hit the ground with them every year.

Fortunately these trees do not generally get big enough that the fall is very far as they tend to grow wide rather than tall so that even a tied in climber usually hits the ground when the branch he's standing on breaks out from under him.

Naturally most arborists that can get to these out of place time bombs with a bucket, use them to safely prune them with. But there are probably millions of them that can't be reached with a bucket for one reason or another, and it takes an experienced climber to prune them without ending up a frustrated bloody mess and then breaking out of them and hitting the ground also, you see they have the most wicked razor sharp black thorns on their wood structure aplenty.

It's an arborist nightmare unless it is maintained and grown in a low water low nutrient environment, as it does so well and beautifully in it's natural setting.

Just one example of a tree introduced into the modern world and going wild as it demands arboricultural maintenance on a biannual basis or else!

jomoco


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## ropensaddle (Jan 3, 2009)

treeseer said:


> You will when you get certified. They will find you!
> 
> Nodal networks, organisms without volition, JPS you da man!
> 
> Trees in forests don't need us so much, but clear around them and pollute them and stress them and yes our assumptions are needed. Great story about triggering aerial roots--that would work on other sp. too...



Hmmmmm I could see good use of musquidine vines in this area as well:Eye:


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## Deuce-fir (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: South Sound Tree*

Oh man, all I gotta say is I feel your pain. Down here just a little south of you I've been weathering the worst snowfall the Willamette Valley has seen since anyone can remember, and I even asked the really old people. Now the rest of the middle to northern latitude regions of the country are sitting there watching the storm on the weather channel are thinking what's the big deal about 18 inches of snow. 
Well for one thing when giant conifers are allowed to go unchecked in a region that is considered the most productive ecosystem in the world in terms of vegetation biomass. Then throw a freak 40 year snow and ice storm at it Enormous trees start falling apart. That coupled with being a place that sits cozily between California and Canada, where we always have to worry about the explosive development, despite the economy and the man vs. nature interaction created therein, which brings me to my point. 
Regardless of what nature intends, people are going to do what people intend to do. We live in cities and towns, and not in the wilderness, and when Arborists (how dare it be used as a slur) are faced with such issues as clients who will pay to have what they want which isn't more natural disasters, like when the house built on a sand dune began sliding into the ocean, or flames kept appearing on their shake shingles, they want to know that their beautiful Douglas-fir in the yard isn't going to be joining them in their living room some day, otherwise beautiful as it is, it's gone. Or the old landowner disgruntled by local governments, and thanks to some recent ballot measures radio advertisements is ready for the first excuse his stand of trees gives him to take em out and subdivide the whole place. 
If we have to tell people that we are making the trees safer, in order for them to sleep at night, and prevent the unnecessary removal of a non hazardous healthy oxygen producing Co2 absorbing tree isn't it worth it???


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 5, 2009)

Deuce-fir said:


> Co2 absorbing tree isn't it worth it???



carbon sequestration by trees is a bit of a red herring, it lasts for 20-30 years on average? then what, it gets burned or rots?

Oops, that OT better stop before I climb on the soapbox!


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