# Damage from logging



## andrew461 (Sep 6, 2015)

To keep it short and simple my grandma hired a company to log 180 trees off the land. They have just started working and are absolutely destroying the land. At least 2-3 up rooted or broke off trees to every one that it supposed to be cut. I just wonder what can be done.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 6, 2015)

well to some extent smaller trees like that are going to get mooshed.

From the look of things the loggers are taking the large marketable timber, which is larger and harder to move, making the younger, much smaller trees vulnerable to damage.

From what I see the damage could be a whole lot worse and the loggers are doing the best they can.


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## Skeans (Sep 6, 2015)

What kind of equipment are they using, thinning there will always be some damage normally skinning up of trees here in the west coast. If we did that I'd be packing up and looking for a new job. I will say normally you do cut yourself some lays unless using a buncher. And I do agree with North man they didn't thin as they should unless instructed to take out only that was dead.

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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

I say it looks like trash and is a poor representation of logging. They are in a hurry by the looks of things. If there a bunch of trees in the way for falling a large marketable tree we cut the small ones down first rather than dropping the big tree and just completely making it look like war. They are hoggers not loggers.

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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

This is just a small area. Maybe an area the size of 100 yards by 100 yards. This is all done by 3 dudes and an ancient timberjack skidder that's pissing oil everywhere it goes. I completely get there will be some damage but it seems very excessive like they are just rushing the job...kind of a time is money deal.


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

Yep you got it. Now if they are cutting monster red oak or **** oak with a huge wide crown some of that damage is not avoidable. But the oak you showed with the big crack from being bent over so far and standing back up....... That shows there quality of work. They could have at least cut it down and mentioned it to you. Being that it's merchantable size that seems to be the rite thing to do. IMO

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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

Unfortunately it looks as if they will just have to finish up and never be allowed back. One thing I did forget to mention was they are also taking a lot of unmarked logs out. For example they had about 15 full unmarked tress on the landing. I'll post more pictures of some worse damage later.


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

Did they buy it on the stump or are they paying a percentage per load?

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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

Paid 80k for 180 trees is all I know so I assume on the stump. Guys is disputing it and saying that he is taking 200 now.


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

And people wonder why loggers get a bad name.

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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

Exactly right. I just wish there's something I could do to get them to be more respectful my land. They are leaves widow makers everywhere also..seems very dangerous the way they are leaving things.


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

Did you get a contract signed?

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## Skeans (Sep 7, 2015)

This is after running though with a fixed head buncher. Being I'm not on the east coast do they have a pulp market there? If so isn't everything merchantable?

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## 1270d (Sep 7, 2015)

I'd say it looks like a pretty rough job. Like colton says they should be cutting the lays out before they flop the rest. 
But its always hard to judge a job by a couple of photos. 

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## northmanlogging (Sep 7, 2015)

If they are taking unmarked trees than yeah they gotta go, Also the mooshing of some small trees is going to happen but not every tree in the area.


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

Skeans said:


> View attachment 445738
> 
> This is after running though with a fixed head buncher. Being I'm not on the east coast do they have a pulp market there? If so isn't everything merchantable?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Not sure but worth looking into the pulp wood deal.


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

Not sure if there was a contract or not. This was my grandmas deal and it seems they think they are going to get one over on an old lady.


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

I'll 


1270d said:


> I'd say it looks like a pretty rough job. Like colton says they should be cutting the lays out before they flop the rest.
> But its always hard to judge a job by a couple of photos.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Ill post more pics after work of more intense damage


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## slowp (Sep 7, 2015)

Contract? References checked?

In the future, I'd recommend walking the area with the logger BEFORE anything is cut. Take a few roles of flagging along and flag in the skid trails. That helps with the falling. If they are good, they directionally fall the trees and can minimize damage. 

Was each tree to be cut, marked? If not, how and who is picking each tree to cut? Was there a timber cruise (volume estimation) done before cutting? 

Sounds like you need........a forester!

Pictures of damage are fine, but what percentage of the whole stand of trees is acceptable to be damaged? I've never seen a perfect logging job, unless you count clearcuts.
You need to figure out what is acceptable...10%? and put that, and everything else, in writing.


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## BeatCJ (Sep 7, 2015)

I would guess that if it's Grandma's deal, then Grandma is the only one with the ability to take action.

Obviously, their reputation is of no value to them. I would try to make sure they are limited to the letter of their agreement, whatever it may be. I believe that if they take more than what was contracted, damages get up their pretty quickly, something like triple stumpage? Of course, what you can do is controlled be the laws of your state. I think it would be wise to get professional help ASAP, and I would start with a reputable forester. That person could let you know if you have legal grounds to recover any damages. I suspect at this point all you can do is limit what happens from here out.

And of course, advice on the Internet is worth only what you pay for it, our ability to comment is affected by the quality of the data in, there are two sides to every story, and opinions are like a_ _hole_, everyone has one and they all stink (except mine). 

Good luck


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

BeatCJ said:


> I would guess that if it's Grandma's deal, then Grandma is the only one with the ability to take action.
> 
> Obviously, their reputation is of no value to them. I would try to make sure they are limited to the letter of their agreement, whatever it may be. I believe that if they take more than what was contracted, damages get up their pretty quickly, something like triple stumpage? Of course, what you can do is controlled be the laws of your state. I think it would be wise to get professional help ASAP, and I would start with a reputable forester. That person could let you know if you have legal grounds to recover any damages. I suspect at this point all you can do is limit what happens from here out.
> 
> ...


That's good advice and I'll take it to heart and look for a pro to assist me. I will post more info as it becomes known to me. Thanks everyone for the help!


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## slowp (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm betting the Michigan has a county forestry program. Or a state run one? Those are places to start, AFTER you've talked to grandma. Maybe she's happy with the job?
Meanwhile...here's a professional, well done, falling job. Planning was done in advance of any work on the ground.



Here is another area, after logs were yarded in. It was a skyline yarded unit.


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

slowp said:


> I'm betting the Michigan has a county forestry program. Or a state run one? Those are places to start, AFTER you've talked to grandma. Maybe she's happy with the job?
> Meanwhile...here's a professional, well done, falling job. Planning was done in advance of any work on the ground.
> View attachment 445820
> 
> ...


That's a proper job..grama is in tears about it


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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

slowp said:


> Contract? References checked?
> 
> In the future, I'd recommend walking the area with the logger BEFORE anything is cut. Take a few roles of flagging along and flag in the skid trails. That helps with the falling. If they are good, they directionally fall the trees and can minimize damage.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree that a forester should have been involved along with a ride through estimate. All of this happened and was set in stone before I had a chance to interfere. With that said we went through and counted 75 that were supposed to be cut and 120 down as result. I understand completely that damage to others is going to happen but that number seems way too high to me.


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

Of what size were the 120 down?

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## andrew461 (Sep 7, 2015)

coltont said:


> Of what size were the 120 down?
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


The majority 20"-28" then a lot of 18" maybe 30 6-8" ers..its bad!


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## Skeans (Sep 7, 2015)

slowp said:


> I'm betting the Michigan has a county forestry program. Or a state run one? Those are places to start, AFTER you've talked to grandma. Maybe she's happy with the job?
> Meanwhile...here's a professional, well done, falling job. Planning was done in advance of any work on the ground.
> View attachment 445820
> 
> ...


From the size of the timber that was all export correct? Do you do any commercial thinnings in young stands such as 20 to 25 year old?

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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

I'd raise a ruckus.

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## dnash (Sep 7, 2015)

What kind/size of trees are they removing? Must be a butt load of veneer to get 80k out of 180 trees...


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## coltont (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm thinking big white oak and hard maple. Maybe some poplar. A piece or two of ash that's good yet.

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## slowp (Sep 8, 2015)

andrew461 said:


> That's a proper job..grama is in tears about it



Everything was laid out before any cutting began. I walked every skid trail and painted trees to be cut for skid trails, we located landings and Okayed cutting extra trees for those and marked them. There was no spontaneity except for an occasional hang up, which was a safety hazard. 

Of course, the contract is at least an inch thick. That was on federal land.


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## madhatte (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm with Slowp on this one. Not in the contract = not their problem. You have to have a good cruise and layout before hand and some form of administrator to oversee that the terms of the contract are met. While it does look like they're making a bit of a mess, without a contract, there's nothing saying that they can't. Time is money. This is how it works in the woods. Please talk to a forester before planning any future timber sales.


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## andrew461 (Sep 8, 2015)

Consensus is that consulting with a forester is a must...unfortunately no one heard me saying that all along and still won't seem to listen. I talked to man in charge and was told there is a contract and it states 208 trees for 26500. Sorry about the bad info before. One of those is in a yard of a rental..that one is $3000 by itself. Seems they are going to make a good amount off that deal..


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## andrew461 (Sep 8, 2015)

dnash said:


> What kind/size of trees are they removing? Must be a butt load of veneer to get 80k out of 180 trees...


Oak walnut cherry maple mainly... Along with the innocent bystanders.


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## andrew461 (Sep 8, 2015)

andrew461 said:


> Oak walnut cherry maple mainly... Along with the innocent bystanders.


Sorry mostly all 24 inches across the stump


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## andrew461 (Sep 8, 2015)

dnash said:


> What kind/size of trees are they removing? Must be a butt load of veneer to get 80k out of 180 trees...


Correction... 208 at 26500.


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## madhatte (Sep 8, 2015)

andrew461 said:


> Consensus is that consulting with a forester is a must...unfortunately no one heard me saying that all along and still won't seem to listen.



I'll be surprised if they don't listen next time. Contracts are important, and the details are more so.


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## Gologit (Sep 9, 2015)

SlowP and Madhatte called it. Before any work starts, have a contract and then make sure the contract rules are enforced.


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## BeatCJ (Sep 9, 2015)

andrew461 said:


> That's a proper job..grama is in tears about it


Well, if she's not happy then you can feel free to try to be a little more proactive.



andrew461 said:


> ...I talked to man in charge and was told there is a contract and it states 208 trees for 26500...


Can you get a copy of the contract? I would hope your Grandma has her copy. First place to start. I would bet that it has some sort of language about quality of work. My biggest fear would be that it is a one sided boiler plate thing that ends up giving your family no power. In which place you will need to start planning the future clean up, and live with what happens, while make sure they only take the absolute minimum they are allowed.

Good Luck


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## Gypo Logger (Sep 12, 2015)

From the pics it does look like a bad haircut. Will the loggers be cleaning up the tops? If so, that is when most of the damage is incured if not done properly.
When a large hardwood is felled quite a bit of the understory gets wiped out as colateral damage, but a good logger will nip those off along with any spring poles.
As far as scale and purchase price is concerned, it sounds like they payed 125$/tree with a conservative scale of 60,000 board feet.
The bottom line is how many crop trees are left behind and wether the basal area is right.
Once the fuelwood is taken out you will have a better view of what kind of woodlot they left behind.
Contracts are fine as long as they aren't written up to entrap either party.
John


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