# Tauntline Hitch Appreciation Thread



## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

Okay, I know I'm not the only climber that uses this simple, effective hitch. I read the threads going on and on about all the 'modern' hitches and all those mechanical gizmos for ascending/descending. Cool. Someday I might switch, but for now the good 'ole TH works for me.

So who else uses this dinosaur knot?


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## tophopper (Dec 24, 2003)

I havent even tied a tautline in over 8 years. now that it hink about it Ive forgotten how 
Once the blakes was introduced I switched over, havent even tied a blakes in near 2 years. 
Butch- everyone here is cutting edge, you are probably one of the only people at this site who uses the dinosuar knot

No appreciation from me


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## Lumberjack (Dec 24, 2003)

I don't think that you're (proper usage) going to get a large number (2-33) of people that use the TH. The few times I have used DbRT, I used the Blake's.


Carl


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## TREETX (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *
> Would I use a tautline hitch again? For tying down a refrigerator in the back of a truck, sure. But it is not even close for climbing.
> *



I have used it and the blake's to tie my kayak to my truck.

For climbing??


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 24, 2003)

The fact that a blake's works 10 times better than a tautline hitch, and takes no extra equipment to tie, leads me to believe anyone who doesn't make the switch is either unable to learn a new knot, or is just into masochism.


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## Lumberjack (Dec 24, 2003)

I actually do use a version of the TH to down the brush in the trailer sometimes. It makes it easy for the groundy to tighten up the ropes and keep crap from falling off.


Carl


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## rborist1 (Dec 24, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Koa Man (Dec 24, 2003)

I still use a TH very often in climbing, but only in one situation, descending from a coconut tree DRT. I use a Distel for all other climbing. The Distel works just great for me and I am completely satisfied with it.


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## fmueller (Dec 24, 2003)

That the first friction knot I learned. Granted I don't climb everyday but would like to try some other knots. I heard one bad turn on the blake and it turns into a suicide knot so I don't mess with that one. Can't afford all the new gismo's so the TLH is my knot.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *I don't think that you're (proper usage) going to get a large number (2-33) of people that use the TH. The few times I have used DbRT, I used the Blake's.
> 
> 
> Carl *




The Blake's is next in line for the dinosaur award!


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm not seeing too much appreciation here.

Since I'm the only one that uses this hitch, I feel it is my responsibility to keep using it.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

Cool.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *I'm not seeing too much appreciation here.
> *


Here's another dinosaur, lumbering out of the Mesozoic. I use TLH exclusively, 3 down 2 up, not out of masochism or stupidity but only because it has never failed me and it's automatic and can be tied with one hand without being able to see it.


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## murphy4trees (Dec 24, 2003)

I AM with Rocky....
Next time I go camping I might use the tautline to tighten up the tent lines.... If I find myself without the proper cordage or needing a quick 2nd tie in I'll use the Blake....
If there are others using the tautline on AS they are laying low....

So the question to MB is what's getting in your way??? Why not make the change???...... Everyone of us that made the switch will guarentee that once you try it you'll never go back.... I AM really interested in the thinking of a person that is reluctant to change in the face of all this feedback.... I was stuck for years...... once I realized the upside of new school techniques I couldn't get enough.... 
So I welcome you in advance to the 21st century...


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## ORclimber (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *So who else uses this dinosaur knot?  *



The hardcore union line clearance guys are the only ones around here. 

The VT is where it's at


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## murphy4trees (Dec 24, 2003)

OK so we've got some other diehard old schoolers here....
They give the following reasons for their continued use of the TL....

1) has never failed me and it's automatic and can be tied with one hand without being able to see it.... GM

2) one bad turn on the blake and it turns into a suicide knot so I don't mess with that one. Can't afford all the new gismo's so the TLH is my knot

3) this simple, effective hitch.... works for me.... MB

In response to Guy's point that the TL is reliable, what he's used to, and can be tied in tough spots.... I can't argue with the reliability of the TL.... The VT can loose it's bite and fail if not tied properly. So it requires some practice, adjustment and awareness.... To me that's still a good trade off for all the benefits it offers.... The increased efficiency of advanced hitches is awesome. You won't really get it until you try it in the tree....
You're used to the TL..... Remember back when you were used to the dial up telephone... You'd probably still be using one if you had never tried or seen the new phones.... Anyone out there still using an electric typewriter.... Not on this site, because you wouldn't be here without a computer and once you try the computer, you won't go back...... EVER....
In response to Guys point about one handed tying behind his back.... I ask... how often do you need to tie it one handed???? How many times a day do you tie it anyway??? The reason you need to tie it one handed is cause the other hand is busy... That WILL NEVER HAPPEN WITH THE ADVANCED HITCHES.... You tie it once and that's it.... The hitch stays on the rope all day.... You can move your tie in point ten times without touching the hitch... Its as easy as unclipping the spliced eye, putting it through the new TIP and reclipping the eye... That can be done in as little as 5-10 seconds...

Our second old schooler thinks the Blake is dangerous and doesn't want to spend the money on the new gear.... To tell you the truth, that's one of the things I love about Big Jon.... he lets me try out his gear for free, so I can see if I like something before I buy it... If you get paid by the hour with no regard to productivity, it might make sense to stay with the TL.... Each job will take a lot longer and you with therefore make more money.... If you followed that theory though, you'd want to cut everything with dull saws and make as many trips to the truck as possible...


And finally MB thinks the TL is simple and effective.... So is walking... it'll get you there eventually everytime... no need to worry about vehicle maintenance or fuel bills... but cars are faster... a lot faster


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## kurtztree (Dec 24, 2003)

I use the taughtline to climb with too 2 up 2 down. Never heard of any other knot until i found this site in august now there are so many different knots my head starts to spin. But Asplundh only wants you to use taughtline so that is what I use there. When I do side work I try to use some others. Hopefully in February at the the dnr thing i'll get to check out a split tail and some others . I went and bought a micro scender landyard out of nowhere comes the vt land yard thread should have waited but I guess it happens a little to late. I still like the micro better then the one lenght landyard where you have to go around the tree two or three times to get in position to make a cut or whatever . Still a lot of learnig to do with the help of you guys. Thanks


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *How many times a day do you tie it anyway??? The hitch stays on the rope all day.... You can move your tie in point ten times without touching the hitch... Its as easy as unclipping the spliced eye, putting it through the new TIP and reclipping the eye... That can be done in as little as 5-10 seconds...
> 
> *


All Greek to me. I have to use 2 ropes in many trees just to get around, so I'm retying all the time. Sometimes retie or resnap lanyard 8-10 times while ascending. I haven't timed it lately but I'd say the TLH takes 5-10 sec., so where's the benefit?

The new TIP may be 20' away and accessible only by flipping a monkeyfist or pushing it with a polesaw. Is it easier to get a spliced eye thru a TIP? Then where's the benefit?

Thanks for trying to lead this dinosuar to evolve into a bird, but I don't see the benefits.


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## blue (Dec 24, 2003)

this is a interesting thread.can anyone direct me to a site that shows a step by step guide to tying some of these advanced hitch's.
thanx


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## murphy4trees (Dec 24, 2003)

Guy,
Are you saying you can untie your TL, untie from the steel clip and retie to the clip, then tie another TL in 5-10 seconds.... I'd like to see that... And how long does it take to tie and untie a monkey's fist??? Compare that to clipping and unclipping a throwball and mini biner onto the eye in your rope. 
It may not "SEEM" like it takes long to tie those old familiar knots 10x/day... And this isn't a race.... Yet all those seconds add up....


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## rumination (Dec 24, 2003)

blue,

I am going to take the liberty of reposting some pics of the advanced hitches that TreeSpyder did a good job of putting together. its not step by step but I hope it helps.


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## rborist1 (Dec 24, 2003)

:Eye:


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## Ax-man (Dec 24, 2003)

Merry Christmas Every One!!!!!


What is the purpose for this thread MB???? If it is for some kind of appreciation type fan club for the old Taut Line hitch, with a nostalgic stroll down memory lane that only brings back memories of jams, constant redressing, couplied with complete retying of the knot in some cases. Not to mention the amount of friction this knot has on the climbing line. It is like a death grip strangle hold compared to a VT.

If this is the purpose for this thread, your just not going to find many supporters on this site for your cause or what ever it is your trying to to get out this thread. 

I can understand Guy's position on climbing, no one here can say any thing to sway him, he has made that point obvious many times.

Do us all a big favor, try a Blakes with a pulley, even these two little changes can make a big difference in how much faster and easier life can be when you earn your living with a rope. I didn't think it could get any better after that, but it does.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

Uhhhhh, okay.

Anything u say, Axe-man!


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## SilverBlue (Dec 24, 2003)

Hey MasterB, are you going to listen to someone who still uses an AXE? Haven't used one of those farm tools in 20 years since they invented the splitter


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## Nickrosis (Dec 24, 2003)

The tautline what?


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## murphy4trees (Dec 24, 2003)

I did use the TL to tie a spider leg this year.... I think i went with 3 under 3 over... worked well... Good knot for that use... So for that... I appreciate the TL....


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *I did use the TL to tie a spider leg this year.... I think i went with 3 under 3 over... worked well... Good knot for that use... So for that... I appreciate the TL.... *





Well alllllrighty then!








Give the TH some love!!!


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## Stumper (Dec 24, 2003)

Butch, Like Brian and so many others-when I tried a Tress cord and an advanced hitch the tautline became an occassional use rigging knot. Sure, modified/tied as Brian mentioned, it is a totally reliable knot and if I need to climb "old school" in an emergency I know and trust it, but a few climbs on advanced hitchs will make them familiar and reliable to your sub-conscious and the ease of use will astound you.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 24, 2003)

I could never understand the resistance that some climbers have to trying new things, especially things as simple to acquire as a new climbing hitch. This kind of reminds me of my 86 yr. old grandfather who won't go to the dentist even though he has a mouth full of aching teeth.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

Yea. Tauntline hitch, dental work. Same thing.

Whut wuz i thinking?


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *Yea. Tauntline hitch, dental work. Same thing.
> 
> Whut wuz i thinking?
> ...




Now your learnin'.........my ZEN climbin' buddy!!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 24, 2003)

Hmmm.

Lemesee.

Tauntline Hitch = Crosscut saw
Anything else = Power tuned chainsaw

Sounds like more dental work rhetoric....


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 24, 2003)

MB, once you get all that dental work done you'll be able to hang up that MS200 and prune with your teeth!!!


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## murphy4trees (Dec 25, 2003)

Tauntline Hitch = Crosscut saw
That's about right... other possible analogies might be:
electric typewriter, dial up telephone, whisper chipper, chain driven stump cutters, ignition points, horse and buggy, bias ply tires, two orange juice cans attached by a string, vinyl records, hemp rope, the Edsel, 8 track cassete tapes, and large leaves...


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## Stumper (Dec 25, 2003)

Tom, In the interest of friendly argument. Brian's tautline variant was my knot for years. While "open prussik" does describe it accurately, I searched for a name for many years and could not find that hitch in the literature EXCEPT that the Rolling hitch/Magnus hitch which we generally acknowledge as the tautline (the Tautline being tied on rope and the Rolling on a spar) was depicted in both forms depending upon the book and illustrator. I consider that to be the proper form of the knot and the commonly accepted form to be an inferior variant. (I know that this is slightly ridiculous-"I'm right and the whole world is wrong...." but the commonly accepted form is a creeper even in natural fiber. The "open prussik" form is stable and performs all of the same functions as the reversed form without the drawbacks-I bet that sailors noted that even in the days of hemp)-I found some of the O.P. form illustrations in older literature.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SilverBlue _
> *Hey MasterB, are you going to listen to someone who still uses an AXE? Haven't used one of those farm tools in 20 years since they invented the splitter *


There's another analogy that falls flat.
I split wood with a maul--after Isabel, lots of practice--and outpaced a mechanical splitter, with the need to roll em into position, and the chugging along of the machine, not to mention the stench and the noise and the lung-rotting smoke.

Yeah if there's lot of knots the sledge-and-wedge method may be slower, but for most trees the maul wins over the logsplitting machine. It's the greatest exercise in the world for your spine, too; unkinks it and sends that spinal fluid to the brain, Whoosh! Rush! Cheap Kicks for the drug-free types. Might not feel as good to the Marlboro-and-wisky crowd, might be hard on a hangover.

Many guys I see using the logsplitters have bellies like beerbarrels and are poppin ibu for their achin' backs. If that machine's progress, give me the past. One of my namesakes, Guy Fawkes, had the right idea but carried it too far. He's still got a holiday named after him tho.

axman I ain't closed to change, just happy with the old, and no tom not out of honor-- like the Last Samurais where they all died except the white-skinned hero named Tom, sheesh what a stretch that was!--but more out of habit; if it's a bad one it can get broke in time. But it's like double-lanyarding up a tree; it doesn't look as impressive as the bigshot-and-ascender route, but you get to stop and smell the lichens while you inspect the stem.

I'll try the U-turn on the TLH next time; whatever you call it it'll be a change and who knows may lead to others.


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 25, 2003)

PS-- Don't taunt those who use a tautline hitch!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 25, 2003)

i appreciate the TautLine but don't use it; it looked after me well fo a while. i've started many a man on it; i see it as part of the family of clove hitches; thereby a stepping stone to other things (Distel); whlie always instilling the same pattern of lacing; hopefully reducing error witht he familiarity. Beyond that, my appreciation is mostly historical, or maybe prepping someone to be around folks that have never seen anything but a TL; so that it seems s/he is beyond the TL, and not 1 less trick here, 1 more there; so just an oddball (<-though that works foer me too!). i would only use a non-splittail in pinch/quick dble/temp. crotch; or to teach it, to have ready for someone elses arsenal (perhaps history/mechanichs/appreciation of knots used/emergency) should contingency arise. Beyond that, don't really see much utility for a non-split tail or TL.

i think that a 2down, 1 up clove type lacing makes a rolling hitch, more ususal in adjustable/lockable (even after overnight stretching of materials, adjusted to retighten) hitch for tent stakes. Not that there is anything wrong with adding a ring and making a tautline; but i have always used that division of knots to specific tasks to illustrate a theory that, 1 turn is temporary stay, 2-3 trustable for loads, but 4 +turns(delegated 1 more ring, placing life higher priority than utility loads constantly in form, philosophy and practice!) on something is the positive lock/overkill for trusting lives to, other conditions permitting. As an observation, learning, double checking of all things involved that people present as knots and such!

Brian was making an open prusik, a different knot as Tom said; because of simple mechanichs in the ways the 2 different paths of lacing the line works(no matter how many coils). In all TL, clove, rolling hitch (also called Magnus) etc. all are laced similar, and destined to walk without stopper (or standing on own tail, as in constrictors do as part of clove knot family that have 1 end free, but don't walk option given!).

If you pull the working end of a clove, it tracks against the standing end (pressed against working end as working end is pulled); so Working end tries to pull the standing end tail in the 'out'/free walked off the end direction! Also, it compounds this action by the working end (as it is pulled) pushing the Zbar towards the free end of the standing end, as the working end is still pulling too, like a cons-piracy(ooooops...) formed for the gripping coli troops that perform the work of gripping to walk right off the job. Except if there is a big bad moderator in the way asking if they are gonna "stop'er not?". Also these coils for clove types continue in same direction continuously, rather than self trapping, by reversing 1 turn (at very start of upper 'story' of 'sandwhich' stack) the 'girth'/prusik family employs. Giving Prusiks a locking half hitch that changes direction, that cloves don't have.

The 'girth'/larks, prusik etc. have a twist, so as the working end is pulled, it tracks against the standing end as before, but the turns are reversed, so the 'tractoring'/grabbing action will tend to draw the standing end tighter, not looser. Also, the now straight bar (as opposed to clove family Z bar signature), is pushed further down away from free end of the standing end. Then the prusiks, cross that top turn

So as the pull on the working end walks 'clove' type lacings to freedom off the end of the line 2 ways, a girth, prusik type lacing tightens 2 ways by the same pull; though i think a 'girth'/lark's needs a stopper, as well as any open LifeLine Link.

Might i suggest a Distel in 1/2" to disbeleivers in the loading of friction hitch from both ends or one, as the most familiar form to the TL? Using friction rope devices in that basket position rather than the choke position work easier for up and down IMLHO.


Orrrr something like that!
:alien:


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## murphy4trees (Dec 25, 2003)

Splitting wood by hand is OK by me.... though I hope its for home use....
I raced a lickety spliter and won many years ago... I was splitting red oak and he was splitting beech... That was fun.. I saw a guy outsplit two men and a splitter on TV and used his style... He would often split a piece where it lay, not even touching it with his hands... he also lifted a leg on the upswing to keep his back straight... Swinging a mall is good for conditioning... I haven't done it in years... Hope to get back to it someday


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## Ax-man (Dec 25, 2003)

Were getting away from MB 's thread and going off topic with this wood splitting but it is Christmas so what the hey.

I agree with Murph's and Guy's statement about wood splitting being good for all around conditioning. I used to it all by hand too with an over sized Missouri Maul.

But do you really think you can keep up with a splitter ALL DAY LONG and do it again the next day, I hardly think so. At the end of the day the guy with the splitter is going to have a much bigger wood pile of" desireable" "finer" split wood, than you guy's will have by knocking some logs in half with your mauls and calling it split wood.

Using Red Oak ( probaly straight grained ) as an example, that a man with a maul can beat a splitter in a race, that really isn't much of a comparision, IMO. Let's see who comes out on top when you start throwiing in Elm or Hackberry wood, also let's not forget those crotch pieces, especially those crow feet crotches. My money would be on the guy with the splitter.

It takes about 2- 3 hrs to produce a standard cord with a splitter, depending on the lengths of wood and the type of wood being split. I don't think a guy with a maul and some wedges could do that even on his best day.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

*Blakes*

The blakes is a better hitch and it's easy to tie.
Hold the tail of your rope and do two wraps around it and your thumb.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

Then do two more wraps.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

Pull out your thumb and put tail in.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

Snug it up and add a stopper.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

The advantage besides working better, is it does not lock down, you can pull slack through the hitch with little effort. 
This sets up the next logical step, adding a fair lead.
Now you can pull slack out with one hand, this works poorly with a tautline because they lock up and can not be advanced easily.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

Now we need to solve Guy's problem. We shouldn't have to tie and untie knots all day, thats what carabiners and snaps are for.
So we add a split tail and snap or carabiner.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

You can see things are getting bulky, so the next step will be to use a smaller rope for the split tail and a VT attached in a clever way to the pulley.


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## Ax-man (Dec 25, 2003)

Is that pulley your basic fixed side plate pulley??? Or is something special with an eye to recieve the dbl. fishermans. Clever though saves some room on the carabiner so it isn't so crowded.


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## Davidsinatree (Dec 25, 2003)

I have been useing the blakes, like it alot but I have been trying the distal . I'm not yet ready to switch to it though. I think I'm going to try the tauntline just for fun I'v never tried it. I do know 4 other climbers that use the tauntline. Weather you like like it or not I would bet it's the most used friction hitch in the tree industry. It would be interesting to know, but its clearly in the minority in this group. :angel:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 25, 2003)

Ax-man,http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&pays=0&Langue=en&Activite=26&Famille=11&Produit=351&Conseil=&ProduitAssocie= It's nice because the carabiner and pulley are tied together so you can't drop a piece when you're tieing it or untieing it.
When I'm done climbing, I tend to just leave the hitch tied to the rope, bend over my rope bag and pull it back through the hitch, into the bag. When it's time to climb again, it's all tied and ready to go.

Are all these guys climbing on Tautline hitches not using a fair lead? That would totally suck to need two hands to adjust your climbing line.


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## kf_tree (Dec 25, 2003)

it must really suck to use 2 hands on a saw too.........


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 25, 2003)

Mike, those step-by-step pics were outstanding! I've seen the Blakes before in my collection of 'books', but I never really experimented with the various hitches all that much.

I DO remember trying the BH and kinda liking it, but I never got into the habit of using it. 

Your MOST EXCELLENT POST has piqued my curiosity. I will try out the BH this monday with a more positive frame of mind.

Thank you, sir.


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## rahtreelimbs (Dec 25, 2003)

Glad to see the Outlaw Zen Climber has taken one more step up the progression ladder!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Hoffman _
> *Glad to see the Outlaw Zen Climber has taken one more step up the progression ladder!!! *




One more, eh?

I didn't care AT ALL about the other hitches.

Maybe later.

But probably not.

I did like that little pulley-thingy.


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## NeTree (Dec 25, 2003)

Hmm... I use a Blake's 60% of the time, a tautline the other 40%.

Dinosaur knot maybe, but it works.

The Blake's doesn't tend to roll out of lock down as much, but if you don't get it exactly right, you're in for a surprise.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 25, 2003)

Day-um Erik, ya just coming outta the closet? 

Do you use the little pully-thingy?


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## NeTree (Dec 25, 2003)

Naw, I'm a dinosaur.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 25, 2003)

I'm gonna try it.

What the hay?


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## Ax-man (Dec 25, 2003)

MB,, Didn't you know Mike is really Santa. That is his Christmas present to you, mine was the link on that pulley, Thanks Mike.

Mike,, Your set - up and mine are basically the same,, I noticed you went with the light weight rope snap, and termination knot combo. Mine has a spliced eye, with twist lock carabiner, instead of a snap.

When you advance the working side of the line with the snap, does it get hung up if the throw is off a little and goes off target??? I usually take the splice off the biner and use a light throw ball or the biner itself if the the throw is short and easy. The light snap would be enough weight as opposed to a heavier snap. to advance the line, and I could save a step or two for line advancement. The Fisherman's knot is the one concern I'd have, other than that your set-up is very


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *The Blake's doesn't tend to roll out of lock down as much, but if you don't get it exactly right, you're in for a surprise. *


A surprise? I like surprises under the tree this time of year, I don't like surprises while in the top of a tree.
Mike's stepbystep present almost pulled me out of the Mesozoic, but Erik's pushed me back. Just what kind of surprise are you talking about, man?


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## Base (Dec 26, 2003)

I use a blakes hitch with a spilt tale probably 60% of the time i like it because i can adjust the lenght depending on what i am doing i.e keep it long for those nice long drags up the tree and short when i'm chogging down a cypress, other than that i use my lockjack for those nice long branch walks, no matter what you use its all about preference if it works for you and fits your style its all good. happy climbing people and stay all frictioned up when swinging about


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## Guy Meilleur (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> * If it's not tied right, it isn't a Blake's, it's called a Pilot-Error-Hitch or Sui-slide.
> *


OK, that sinks it; unless I want to take the time to do 38 repetitions for my aging brain to learn the Blake's correctly, sounds like it's TLH until I'm grounded by late senescence. 

Then again, TD, a year ago you took one look at my buttstrap saddle and pronounced it a "suicide saddle". I call legstrap saddles Nutcrackers, and not just because I'm in a holiday mood.
With a tlh if it ain't right it don't slide. With a Blake's it slides willynillY and puts you on the ground?

I'll just wait until it freezes here and I have the time to play with it. Like that'll happen any time soon!
O and TD why not send up doofus RK to the feeding frenzy? It'd be fun to watch, with a raincoat on. ps my inbox is open.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Dec 26, 2003)

The Blakes is no more likely to slip than any other hitch. Start out low and slow. If you are an experienced climber, by the time you tie, dress and set it three times, move up and down a little, you will be a pro, no worries.

I may have put my photos in the wrong order, adding a fair lead should be first. This takes no skill to add and shows you the benefits of one handed operation.
Make changes to your climbing system one at a time and use them for a week or two before you move on.
The split tail is also easy, you'll need a seperate piece of rope though, preferably spliced.
Both these steps will improve your climbing without much change.
You will see why it's nice to tie hitches that don't lock down, like the Blakes or the VT.

That was my progession anyway, once I added the fair lead, it was clear the tautline locked too hard. The Blakes was great, then I saw the VT and a light went on.


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## Joe (Dec 26, 2003)

.


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## Stumper (Dec 26, 2003)

With all due respect to Mike's "change one thing at a time" progression I don't really see the point in that. Why prolong the learning curve with an ongoing feeling of discomfort with something new? It is just a cord, a hitch, a 'biner and a pulley to go all the way. I was climbing on an 'open prussik' Tautline. I read about the other methods on here (I'd seen them in print before but was disinclined to change). The recrotching benefits clicked for me. Easier slack tending sounded good but wasn't a primary motivator. I could see that this had a real potential to improve my climbing. I read about the various stages then made a tress cord, bought a new'biner and micro pulley. I tied a Swabisch a few times one evening and then started climbing on it. After about 3 climbs on the Swabisch I tried the V.T. and the Distel. Guy is an intelligent person. He has read all about this stuff. If he is willing to try the something new I think he can go all the way in one step. Just give it a few days for a fair trial. I know that I'm not going back!:angel:


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## SilverBlue (Dec 26, 2003)

This just in, well not really.Anyone try the "icicle hitch"


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## NeTree (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *
> 
> The rumor that I've heard over the years is that the Sui-slide will grab after a two foot slip.
> Tom *



Like hell it will! Trust me on this one.:angel:


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## Ax-man (Dec 26, 2003)

I really don't understand this mental block thing when it comes to tying a new style friction hitch. Any one who has tied the TL for years should have a grasp for how it functions, and secures you on the climbing line. The same basic principles of the TL apply to the newer hitches. If you can't see how the newer knots are going to function on the rope, then some type of red flag should go up and say to you " Hey this isn't going to work" " I must be something wrong". I just don't see where the problem could be when it comes to tying some of these hitches. 

If someone is still not sure or uneasy about some thing new, then the old adage of practice low comes into play. A few footlocks or a couple of body thrust pulls should be enough to find out if a new hitch is going to work and function the way it should.

I think Guy's yanking our chains here on the site. I'd bet he is down there in NC, shooting his Big Shot, hoofing his way to the top by footlocking and VTing his way around the top of those trees. He probaly even has a Lock Jack hidden in his gear bag that he isn't telling us about.


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## rbtree (Dec 26, 2003)

Guy and MB and any of youse guys still using a TLH. 

As many here have said, all hitches work, some better than others, some finicky, some easier to tie. My advise would be to go straight to a distel or Schwabisch, as they work much better than a Blakes, are easier to tie, and can't be tied wrong. Personally I use a Vt, which, to its users is the King of friction hitches. But it is more senstive to length and being tied and used correctly.

When I double crotch, I toss on a TLH as it is so quick to tie. That is, if I don't have a second split tail on my belt or just want to be quick.

Above all, always use a pulley as a slack tender, as it's benefts are many.

Here's a shot of the last of a pine that took two climbers and 2.5 groundies 2 days to remove, 2.5 truckloads of chiips, more pics eventually if I ever quit skiing.


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## NeTree (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tom Dunlap _
> *Erik,
> 
> So...why not take a microsecond more time and share what, it seems, you know about slippage? Are you teasing? It was important enough for you to post, why isn't it important to share a story.
> ...



Quite simple. If it's not tied right, it won't grab when you load it. Oh sure, you'll yank on it when you set & dress and think it's okay, but it will sui-slide easily.

When I first started using it (eons ago, now), sometimes I'd get the crossover on the wrong side... and I'd get about 10 or twenty feet up footlocking, and then I'd start putting all my weight on, and (somewhat) slowly slide back to terra firma. Not fast enough to get hurt mind you, but faster than you can say WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!?!

So, as I said, if it's not tied exactly right, it won't grab. I thought it was a pretty simple enough statement- one that needed no explanation, but alas, I have been requested to overcomplicate it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stumper _
> *With all due respect to Mike's "change one thing at a time" progression I don't really see the point in that.:angel: *



Due respect to MIke????? 

Yeah, jest a Blake's J, but this place stands as a place of record i think more and more; Mike has done us a service; there should be more of other knots IMLHO. How many places available to all exist, can one find all of the solid things that can be offered here. People from other discliplines and interests should have a place to marvel at these innovations as well IMLHO.

i think that Blake's is a worthy step if it is only crossover stone with the equipment and familiarity had. It also has value as a better 'quicky' open tailed secondary adjustment etc. It has a French Coil Base look/operation (different than action of double clove/TL in my mind); even though just pulling from one leg. Also, very simple security like an anchor/barrel; only running 4 coils instead of 2 before tucking under 2!

Though, if ya can crossover higher -on an eye to eye tail; i'd go with Distel like RB said, can be tied in 1/2", in almost a TL form, only grab both ends of the line to saddle. i'd try Distel or Blakes on a 1/2" 3 strand tail if you can eye splice and have the proper line. If y'all want to try stepping slowly, and not juming into a new knot to trust your life to, with ends you tied differently than before, in line you never trusted like that before, that kinda looks funny and small, with a new toy underneath etc. all at once. In fact it makes sense to me if ya feel like you are in more of a comfort range, paying attention to one change at a time as to make single and not group errors to self correct etc.!

The ice out here is great and rock solid, but i seen guys rush before at the wrong angle; ain't noone in this camp got anything to prove; we all stand facing the odds eye to eye all the time!


If you find your place with these 'other knots' (some take 'tuning' of and to); i think ya can see; you prolly (Sanborniski Spoken Here!) won't look back to Blake's/TL; like those here that have tried it before ya!

Orrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:


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## xander9727 (Dec 26, 2003)

Getting back to the start of this thread. I used the TH for the first two weeks I climbed. I then modified it to an open prussic (it just made more sense). When I teach people I have them start with a distel. They use the 30" tennex prussic lines from sherrill. The distel is easy to tie and use for beginners. I personally like the VT and the distel. A TH is good for securing stuff to the trailer and for tent stakes. 

MB,
"Cross over children, all are welcome, go into the light" (Short lady in poltergeist).

The distel and a micro pulley are your friend.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 26, 2003)

YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!!!


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 26, 2003)

That pic is bogus!


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## rbtree (Dec 26, 2003)

Naw. Mb, that looks like a Magnablakedisteswabbyuntautvaldomessyard tresse knut not knot to me. It looks like it would hold and only slip a couple inches...dont know abooot pelvic thrustin' on her tho.


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## treehugger01 (Dec 26, 2003)

Qhat I like about the blakes from what I think has been tested is if you fall on the knot it doesnt scench up but rather stops and releases a couple time before seezing up, whereas the taughtline will just seeze up.But then again I might be wrong.
edit
I do remeber a teenage climber back in 95 fell. Somehow, his rope had flipped on the last bit of stubb he was working. Flipped and he fell about 30 feet before the rope caught on a 2 inch by 2 inch long stubb. seenching him and his knot down tight. frantically hugging the tree and yellin "did you see that ????!" at the top of his lungs. I didnt work that day so I dont rember if it was a TL or a blakes that had to be cut out of his rope.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 26, 2003)

The three times I took a direct fall my TH locked up tootsweet.

I had no complaints!


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## treehugger01 (Dec 26, 2003)

HAHA master blaster well thank ya for doing that for me. Id always wondered scence I'd heard his story. Ive thought of rigging a big log up like a climber and throwing it from way up just to see what would happen. Great to know master blaster...hehe


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treehugger01 _
> *Ive thought of rigging a big log up like a climber and throwing it from way up just to see what would happen. *



Do that. If you've properly set n dressed your hitch I bet the log don't go anywhere.

But the actual logistics of doing that could turn into a real PITA.

Ya think?


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## treehugger01 (Dec 26, 2003)

Yeah it wood. Ridding the stubb after that bugger hit would be the PITA, like cutting a bad leaner in half where several limbs connect to the trunk it tends to hold and what a ride that is.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 27, 2003)

Advanced Hitches Thread

IMLHO this thread deserves a 5 star rating (box to lower right at the end of each thread); i always wait for threads to develop and go back on occassion and 'catch up' on the voting.

This gives a few threads star ratings to stand out for easier research by us and all others for years to come! This makes it so when you pull a search on "VT" a long list would come back, a few with stars etc. 

Also, on the forum list page, pressing the word "Ratings" at the top of the column will show threads in the order of their ratings (ascending or descending). Just as pushing the column heading "Thread" will list threads alphabetically by title; over riding the default to sort on time of last post to a thread. Also sorts likewise by clicking the column heading for "ThreadStarter", "Replies" and "Views"; lots of good stuff to find! Like this thread will be! 

Clicking the number of thread replies on thread list page gives list of folks that posted, sorted by the number of posts. Clicking any member's name brings up their 'Profile' page, leading to a search list of all of their posts.

"Search" function is a fantastic tool!


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## NeTree (Dec 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *In talking to Erik via email, I found he had saved an picture of the actual hitch he tied that failed him.
> The difference from a properly tied Blake's hitch is very subtle, if you look closely you might be able to see where he went wrong. *


.

I dunno... Looks like a Maas-Hitch to me.....definitely not one of mine!
 

What a Blake's SHOULD look like.....


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## treehugger01 (Dec 27, 2003)

Thats it! I taught a bud of mine just this knot and told him he could open his own tree business with just this knot. Him being ex French Foreign Legionaire did just that. He uses the blakes hitch on just about everything. Now he's in high demand in the area he lives. Who would have thought one knot would feed his entire family now, but it does.


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## treehugger01 (Dec 27, 2003)

I was not self taught. I had the great courage to drag brush for the best tree man I know. His name is Kenny Ledford he works with G & H Tree Service in Highlands NC. As a ground man they foot my bill to a Sherrill 2 day seminar back in 1995 and a take down Rob did over a fence. I met Ken Thompkins and learned the "New" friction saver device. I further progress my spikeless knowledge when I worked for Horticare out of Asheville NC. They climb out most of Biltmore forest. The only other company I know that adhears to the "Spikes only on removals" The last time I worked for a company was Kilmurry tree out of Atlanta GA. Ran his crew of 8 men and 4, 30,000 lbs. GVW 2003 International tree trucks. When we pulled into neighborhoods we looked like the circus come to town. Didn't learn much with them except it was fun running his freigh-train. I am currently studying to become a Arborist this after 12 years aloft.


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## rbtree (Dec 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treehugger01 _
> *HAHA master blaster well thank ya for doing that for me. Id always wondered scence I'd heard his story. Ive thought of rigging a big log up like a climber and throwing it from way up just to see what would happen. Great to know master blaster...hehe *



There have been drop tests done on most of the climbing knots. The results were that some of the knots abraded or broke the line. The Vt performed best, as it slipped, grabbed, slipped again, then stopped, thus reducing the dynamic loading. And the slippage distance was minimal. Tom, I'll bet you could direct us to the location of that article. 

th, if you really want to do that test, it would be easy. Just do it in a multi stemmed tree, so you're in another leader, and have groundies pull over the piece if it is awkward to push yourself. Or hook up with the Arbormaster guys with their Dynamometers, and get some peak load data.


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## Ax-man (Dec 27, 2003)

Congrats MB,, for putting this thread up.

I might be wrong on this,, but I think this thread has the record or very close to it on the number of replies, plus the added bonus of the five star rating. I'm still a relative new comer here, there might be some other threads stashed away that are bigger than this one.

I would have never guessed it would have gone this far, who knows how far it will go before before it peters out.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Dec 27, 2003)

Clicking 'Replies' column of thread list shows this thread to have the 10th amount of replys, Clicking 'Views' shows it to be about 40th in line for the amount of views ever in climber forum. Clicking the number of posts shows MB has presently made the most posts with 14(edit: oops 15.....), Mike 12 etc.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 27, 2003)

I can't get the 'views' to click.

I never knew that about the replys/views thing.

Thanks, Ken.


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## treeman218 (Dec 27, 2003)

*Sui-slide*

There are a lot of posts on this thread so I'm not sure if I missed something but this seems important…

If you take a look at the photos that Mike Maas posted on Thursday and Friday of the Blake's hitch you will notice that what is actually tied is a Sui-Slide. The "bridge" is not "captured".

Luckily it is the Holiday season so hopefully the TLH fans haven't had a chance to try out this "improved" climbing hitch. 

Check out the Tree Climber's Companion or the Sherrill catalogue for an accurate picture.


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 27, 2003)

I just looked on pg. 35 of the TCC and it is exactly what Mike showed.

Am I missing something?


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## Joe (Dec 27, 2003)

Treeman218: thanks for the heads up. I didn't know what a sui-slide hitch looked like. I've always tied the Blake's hitch correctly. Treeman218, would you or some1 else explain to me what it means to have the bridge captured?

Joe


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## NickfromWI (Dec 27, 2003)

*Tie your Blakes the right way....*

...and you'll never want to tie the Tautline again!

Looks like the picture Mike showed was indeed wrong. He showed what many refer to as the sui-slide







This one is correct...






The difference (and it's an important one) is that that final tuck, the working end should go BEHIND the standing end of the climbing line, not in front of/on top of it.

Click on the link below for further explanation.

I know Joe already mentioned that what Mike posted was wrong, but it's worth restating. As I've said in the past, "If you can't tie knots, learn how to tie knots."

love
nick


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## treeman218 (Dec 27, 2003)

What I mean by having the bridge captured is this:

After the turns are made on the standing part of the rope, the working end comes down over the bridge and then back under the bridge. Finally, the working end is tucked up through the bottom two turns and finished with a stopper.

Also, cut Mike Maas some slack on this one. He seems like a good guy.


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## Ax-man (Dec 27, 2003)

Has there been a reprinted edition of the TCC. 

My copy of TCC on page 35 discusses static and dynamic climbing systems. 

Page 83 of my copy of the TCC shows the proper way to tie the Blakes Hitch

Looks like Nick picked - up the ball Mike fumbled.


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## treeman218 (Dec 27, 2003)

You've got the second edition (and current to my knowledge) of the Tree Climber's Companion. Master Blaster apparently has the first edition which has the Blake's hitch illustration on page 35. 

I'm sure that it has been expressed before but the Tree Climber's Companion is essential reading and is probably the most "bang for the buck" of any training aid in the industry. The second edition is definitely worth the full cost to "upgrade".


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 27, 2003)

Outstanding, Nick. I didn't catch the 'behind the rope' part of the hitch - I can see there is a big diff.

Hey Mike! You and me owe Nick an attaboy!

Well, I did my attaboy!


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## Joe (Dec 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by treeman218 _
> *What I mean by having the bridge captured is this:
> 
> After the turns are made on the standing part of the rope, the working end comes down over the bridge and then back under the bridge. Finally, the working end is tucked up through the bottom two turns and finished with a stopper.*



Thanks for the reply. 

Joe


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## t6140p (Dec 28, 2003)

I learned to climb on the Tautline and through out the years have progressed through the Blakes, Distel and now the VT. 
If I unexpetidly find the need to double crotch in a tree, I'll tie the tail end of my rope to my saddle and tie a Blakes Hitch.
If I see the likely hood for a need to double crotch before I go up, I'll then carry a couple of extra beaners and a spair tail.

T


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## treehugger01 (Dec 28, 2003)

I was taught originally with the taugh line. A few years into climbing the blakes came out. 

I was taught to climb a tree like this:
Put on spikes 
Walk up to tree
Notice tie in point (pully)
Set safety length for tie in point diameter.
Climb to tie in point non stop.
Safety to tie in point.
Attach pully, tie in, rapell to lowest limbs, begin work


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## treehugger01 (Dec 28, 2003)

what wrong with that method.?
Do you suggest having one safety and limb as you go up?
I limb as I go. Unless there is overhang or limbs to be cut in half to be gone out on, I rarely tie in at all to be quiet honest.But I love it when I do.I feel much safer tied in twice thou most jobs dont call for. If you suggest i safety in at every limb I come to to get to the top to tie in thats about 20-30 clippings alot can go wrong there. 
Cheers


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## Ax-man (Dec 28, 2003)

Another excellent post Rocky,, you have made a number of them lately ,, I'm starting to lose count


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## MasterBlaster (Dec 28, 2003)

20 years ago none of the climbers around used lanyards. We thought they were for sissies. We didn't even use 'em in a bucket. All we climbed with were our ropes. That shows how good the training was back then.


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## treehugger01 (Dec 28, 2003)

What does the ANSI say about removing dead pines?
Maybe this should go under another thread.I remeber a multi-million dollar powerline contracting company employee had a few days off and worked with us. He says sure I'm a great climber. I been trained by (*&*&& company. Kool the boss says go hang a rope in that thar pine and come on down.
I hang a couple ropes and wonder where he's at.
I see he is up in the first tree. Dude I say you aiight.
All of a sudden *thaaackkk* he hits the ground about 3 feet from me. 
Dude you aiight i say?
"Sure i guess."
All that training paid off i see your ???? fast buddy. heh
He fell about 25 feet lucily he landed on his feet.
Power companies tree crew are the worse trained bunch of hack Ive ever met.
Where on the net is there fatality rates.
Where on the net is their injuirey list annually>?
Where on the net is their standard training program guides for training?
More folks get hurt within the line clearance communities than our I'm sure of it.


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 2, 2004)

Dude called the other night, lives 5 doors down, has small bucket service, wanting to know if he could borrow/buy a lanyard (i've made him several); it is all his climber needs. 

The next day an old familiar face shows up, to pick up the lanyard. A fella that had worked part time some time ago with us. He's convinced this guy he can climb (pretty healthy, some sense); and wants me to give him a 2 minute lesson in tying the climbing hitch so he could make the big bux!

i told him anyone i ever walked thru that made it 50x on the ground and still it looked different at 50' when you realize you're gonna sit on it etc. He kinda left like i was holding him back, maybe try to control the amount of available climbers in the area or something. He left me wondering about the worst of 2 evils, promising he'd figure one out etc. i remember my buddy Stretch telling me about showing a guy how to tie in and the guy went out and got hurt right away........ that was 10 year ago or so. so we always said that wasn't the way.

But then i got to thinking, he coulda grabbed a Sherrill catalog, looked on the net, tied it once for practice and been full fledged ready for battle.

So, anyone comes around asking, ya slap it on 'em? give'em a catalog and light a candle?


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## Lumberjack (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *So, anyone comes around asking, ya slap it on 'em? give'em a catalog and light a candle? *




I bet giving him the catalog would release you from liability, while keeping a friend. By showing him the catalog with the knot, you showed him the correct way to tie the knot. So it is up to him to tie it, just like many climbers every day.


2 candles, one for him, and the other for the knot.  

Carl


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## topnotchtree (Jan 2, 2004)

Hey treehugger, saying line clearance guys are poorly trained is wrong. There is a 30 month program to get a journeymans card around here through the IBEW. I will admit there are some guys I have worked with that don't deserve groundmans pay, let alone a journeymans pay, But most journeyman on the utility property that I work on are very capable of doing treework, and are ????ed good at it.


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## treehugger01 (Jan 2, 2004)

No Doubt brother!
I have more respect for tree men around lines than any other trade. Theres is a different game alltogether. Being that close to "immenent" death was just too nerve racking for me. To do it for months years at a time for me is unconcievable.

Power line tree workers should be the highest paid in the industry
"For me to say these guys are poorly trained is wrong."
It is what I've seen down south. I am refering to the big companies such as Asplundh and Davey policies. Especially when they lay on the ground with 1 years experience lucky to have landed on their feet.


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## topnotchtree (Jan 2, 2004)

The line clearance contractors do not condone the use of modern equipment because they do not want to pay for the proper training to teach the employees how to use it. We have had 2 guys fall this year because they were using newer techniques they were not properly trained in. I was introduced to the blakes hitch a few years ago and now that is about all I use for climbing. I am not supposed to use anything but the TL hitch but I still do. We are getting better lifts to make our jobs easier though. 2 yrs ago we got a 70 foot high ranger with the scissor lift. That is a sweet truck! This last spring we got a new back yard lift. It is trailered to jobsite. It has 4 hydraulically driven wheels and is about 5 feet wide and reaches almost 40 feet.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 4, 2004)

Since Mike corrected his post, maybe someone could post the Blakes and Sui-slide next to each other for better refferance.


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## geofore (Jan 4, 2004)

*where?*

Where on the net is there fatality rates? Don't know but this is well worth a read and it's long. www.cdc.gov/niosh/injury/traumalgface.html
I sometimes disagree with their analsis of what went wrong and what to do to correct it, they are better than most at it.


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## Joe (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Since Mike corrected his post, maybe someone could post the Blake's and Sui-slide next to each other for better reference. *



Nick showed the difference between the 2. It looks like Nick's post is corrected as well.


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## NickfromWI (Jan 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> *Since Mike corrected his post, maybe someone could post the Blakes and Sui-slide next to each other for better refferance. *





> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *...and you'll never want to tie the Tautline again!
> 
> Looks like the picture Mike showed was indeed wrong. He showed what many refer to as the sui-slide
> ...


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 4, 2004)

Splain to me the differance 'tween those two knots?

The both trap the bridge and working line.


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## NickfromWI (Jan 4, 2004)

You know, the more I look at it, it sure seems like both knots are identical.

I think Mike threw us off because his picture shows the last going over the bridge, behind the climbing line, then when it goes under the two coils, it is in front of the climbing line, instead of behind it as it should be.

I tied the knot loosely the way Mike shows, then when you tighten it down, it looks just like the one below it.

However, there seems to be some funny-business going on here.

If you go back and look closely at the pics Mike supposedly posted it seems like there was some photoshopping going on.

See the link below if you don't believe me, or go back and look at Mike's pics.  

So, what's going on!? 

love
nick


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## Ax-man (Jan 5, 2004)

Mike's picture is wrong, the tail should be behind the standing part of the line. Even though Mike's picture is wrong I still don't see how it could fail if properly set and tensioned on the host line. I'm sure if you were to "jam the tail " and set the brake it would hold you in place and prevent a fall. 

I think where all this sui-slide talk is coming from is some one has just wrapped the coils and tucked the the tail up into the bottom two coils with out forming the bridge. Wheather the tail is in front or behind the standing part of the line is a minor detail in the knot's performance.


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## NickfromWI (Jan 5, 2004)

Ax-man, grab a piece of line and tie it as mike has shown in that pic. When you snug it up, the final tuck seats itself where it should be. It does not stay on top like I earlier assumed it would.

love
nick


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## NeTree (Jan 5, 2004)

Nick-

Mike's ORIGINAL picture was incorrect, and yes... it was photoshopped. I believe he mentioned he had done so in the interest of not creating any further confusion for those not as familiar with this hitch as some of us.

The picture you viewed above the B&W pic as incorrect- isn't. The hitch is simply loose and hasn't been set and dressed yet. Once you pull on the tail the line comes 'round the back. 


Ax-

The tail belongs behind the standing part. Tie it both ways and test weight to it- you'll see a difference. And a Blake's is tied only one correct way, by definition. Anything else is a variation.


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## Ax-man (Jan 5, 2004)

Your right Nick, that bend where it enters the two bottom wraps forces the tail behind the standing part every time. I even loosened all the wraps and put the tail on the far left of the standing , results are the same when the knot is tensioned.


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## NickfromWI (Jan 5, 2004)

Ok, mystery solved.

Now I can go to sleep.

love
nick


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 5, 2004)

So i'm not really confused


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## Guy Meilleur (Jan 6, 2004)

I jsut came back from FL, land of palms and stunted trees like live oaks, and boy is it ever GREAT to be back where big trees grow!

Pruned a 60' ash today and tried the brandspankin new knot which is the TL with the upper two loops going to the left--what do you call it, the prusikpretzl?

It worked great!! Only cinched up on me one time. I mastered new technology, yippee! Maybe next year I'll try the Blakes, and later even ascenders! Anyone with a hotline to Santa, let him know I'll be pantin' for a Pantin in a decade or so. 

Thanks for the info, guys!


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Guy Meilleur _
> *--what do you call it, the prusikpretzl? *











I wish you coulda been with me in the pea-can I was in yesterday - MONSTER!!!


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## TheTreeSpyder (Jan 6, 2004)

*None of these are that foreign to your Experience Guy(s)!*

i'm thinking if the second story of turns, reverses direction, and both ends end up, coming out on the same side (like a loop chord choked 2x around host neatly is also a prusik), with a straight, rather than slanted (slanted denotes clove/TL) 'bar' is an open prusik. 

Placing an eye in the free end, and connectiong to saddle, would make a closed prusik. Or a closed loop of chord tied in circle to it's self, can be choked 2x, then connected to saddle for prusik.

Same knot as open prusik with 1, lower ring, and 3 top, in a closed formation (eye connected to saddle on each end); -like steal one ring from bottom and place on top story, you have a Schwab Prusik, better yet! Minimal change!

Prolly, the best in this , just one step off the path of experience is to take that double eye tail, and make your ol'TL; drop 1 ring from the bottom, and give it to the top(parallelling such action as in Schwab, only here with clove type lacing family pattern), hook both eyes to the saddle, and you have the Distel. 

Just like that prusik; all just ~(about) 1 step from what your used to in most of them! But, i think it is such that the change in the mechanichs of how it serves you can be dramatic. Some take a lil'experience for you to naturally tune it in etc. This is good practice for if ya ever later step up to the VT, it can really take some tuning to ya. 

But like any other better crafted machine, what a ride when ya get it going right!

All these friction hitches, can be made in 1/2", so ya might be able to experiment; without the variable of getting used to looking at that lil'chord etc. All of the 'closed' hitches would be inherently stronger compared to the 'open' tail on end of fritcion hitch. If the open system systems, could be compared to a choke (in sling lingo), and the closed systems then is a basket type position of the same line. For slings the ratings are usally Choke Strength x 2 1/2 = Basket Strength.

If ya gots some 3 strand, i think that is better/longer lasting tails/lanyards than braid on braid IMLHO. i think it flexes around host line nicer, and possibly that the 'flutes' between the strands allow better heat dissipation, than a 1/2" braid tube on a braided line, with more 'total contact' on the host line from the tube rather than 'fluted' contact point by 3strand. but, that is just a theory of why it seems to last longer.

So, nothing that far from home, here for ya to reach to and get a taste; see if it is for you. Of the 4 here : TL, Open Prusik, Schwab, Distel; i think the concensus would be to go for the Distel for best grab/release of the set, and a fairly close to an olde familiar form.

-KC


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## Bradley Ford (Mar 4, 2004)

*safest hitch?*

Is the tautline hitch (with stopper knot) the safest hitch for a dynamic climbing system?

Thinking about limiting a hitch's holding ability, so that it will "slip and grab" in response to a 4g shock load, made me wonder if fewer wraps and/or braids (generally producing less holding ability) would be safer than more. And the Tautline hitch's 3 wraps (1 up and 2 down) are about as few as are used in any climbing hitch.

Also, some may consider having a hitch that requires significant effort to move safer than a hitch that does not.


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## igetbisy (Mar 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Husky 288 _
> *I climb with a Tautline or a Blake. I got your back MB. *



TL here too butch, pretty hard to give that info out to the fellas here, sort of like a black man going to a white pride convention, but i find it's pretty conveinient, and i've never found myself wishing there was a better way.
But I am here to learn, so I guess It would be a bit rude not to take the unanimous opinion here, and see what I think about it, So I'll give some time towards checking these other options out.
I just cant wait till the day I run around here, trying to tell all the good ol boys that their ways are obsolete!!!


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## Lumberjack (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: safest hitch?*



> _Originally posted by Bradley Ford _
> *Is the tautline hitch (with stopper knot) the safest hitch for a dynamic climbing system?
> 
> Thinking about limiting a hitch's holding ability, so that it will "slip and grab" in response to a 4g shock load, made me wonder if fewer wraps and/or braids (generally producing less holding ability) would be safer than more. And the Tautline hitch's 3 wraps (1 up and 2 down) are about as few as are used in any climbing hitch.
> ...



The fact that the tautline uses less wraps doesnt mean, IMO, that it is easier to slip. 

I would think that a VT or a variation would be better, as it acts on a longer section of the rope, and it is easier to fine tune it. I agree that using less wraps and braids would be the easiest way of obtaining a hitch that would slip.

In a tautline, the wraps take more of the load each than in a vt, as evidence that the tautline can work with just three wraps, instead of 3 wraps and the braid on the VT.

A shock load, being absorbed by the hitch, is going to create alot of heat, possibly damaging the rope from the sudden hard slide from the shock. (Doesnt a tautline lockup after it is shock loaded? I dont know, as i dont use them, just askin.) So i would like a hitch that spread the wear out in normal use, as to not burn throught the tress cord.

About the hitch that requires segnificant effort to move, that would be a pain for sure. But also, if it is hard to move, then how is a shock load going to be allowed to slip?

I see what you are sayin tho, advanced hitches will slip with little pressure applied to collapse them, but after all, that is one reason why we use them.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 30, 2004)

Well, I tried the Blake's hitch out, and its back to the 'ole tauntline for me. I DID like the way it didn't move when you didn't want it to, and didn't seem to lock up as much.
I DID NOT like the need for both hands, or the way it wore the bottom wrap prematurely.

Oh well... I DID try... :angel:


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## NickfromWI (Mar 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MasterBlaster _
> *...I DID NOT like the need for both hands... *



Do you mean in tying it?


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 30, 2004)

*Well, yah!*

 


Don't hate me because I'm old school... :alien:


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Mar 30, 2004)

Now that you know howto tie the hitch, add a fair lead, that's where the advantage comes in. The fair lead won't work for $hit wih with those old school hitches.
When I see a picture of you with a Blake's and a fairlead, then I'll believe you tried it.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 30, 2004)

*You don bleeb me?*


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## TheTreeSpyder (Mar 31, 2004)

Even a Blake's has 4coil short Frenchy stack, that the other friction hitches are built on too. The Blake's just kinda sits on it's own tail/bootstrap with main line pull placed on the easiet to hold point; much like constrictor, anchor; Y tie off to a lessor extent, etc.

The tautline kinda violates the pattern of the best strategy/ most common strategy of a short run of French Prusik coils (4)in same direction to grip host line for lifeline applications IMLHO. So, though the tautline the eldest of our friction hitches; in some ways the French Prusik pattern is the more proven, for it's ability to be applied in so many forms (VT/MT, Distel, Schwab, Knut, Kleim etc.), and more; especially in mountain/rescue.

So, i think in that realm the ol'tautline has become an oddball; who's design is different, only using 2 uniterupted rings for initial grab. Many things will work; never done it; but i know a guy that actually sets a clove hitch real tight and backs it up for a friction hitch for some years now!

i think steering from the tautline (though not in the clove or rolling hitch direction)is going with the better science; that yields friendlier hitches that are secure, don't sieze and are easier to 'break' from a standstill.


Orrrrrrrrrr something like that
:alien:


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## a_lopa (Mar 31, 2004)

i think the french is best with small pulley better for when you have to go up down a few times but thats only my opinion


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## Guy Meilleur (Mar 31, 2004)

*youwinlarry*



> _Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder _
> *
> i think steering from the tautline ...is going with the better science; that yields friendlier hitches that are secure, don't sieze and are easier to 'break' from a standstill. *


Thanks for that explanation--it made more sense and impact than all the other admonishments to get with the "advanced" program. 

In my TL, since flipping the upper two loops tto the left, seizing has been reduced >50%, but it still happens. And if it happens at the wrong moment, a sticky situation may result. Tried the blakes but didn't like it better.

Most seizures I can break with one hand, but if my second hand wasn't available when needed, hmmm....it's raining today, so it may be time to :Eye: the VT...


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## NickfromWI (Mar 31, 2004)

Guy, I dunno if you should start with the VT. It can take a while to fine-tune it. I wouldn't want you to give up on it! Perhaps the Distel or Swabish would be a good step up from the tautline. They are tied very similarly, but behave so differently!

If you're patient, then do invest the time in the VT...it will pay off big in the end!

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 31, 2004)

*Hey!*

This is the tauntline APPRECIATION THREAD!

Lets get appreciating!!!  


I used mine today with GREAT SUCCESS!!! I also had to euthanize a bird...


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## NickfromWI (Mar 31, 2004)

Guy, I appreciate your openness in considering newer, better options.

hows that, MB? 


love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 31, 2004)

We don't want this to be the FIRST THREAD to have ever gone OT, do we?


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## Ax-man (Mar 31, 2004)

Your not going to get any appreciating out of me MB, I think of you every time I undo my lead carabiner, to advance my line or get a new TIP. Yup, good ole MB down there in LA. , tying and untying that dreaded taut line. Life in a tree is just sooo much simplier with a split tail and VT with a pulley. You just don't know what your missing. 

Still don't know how you could wear a rope so quick using a Blakes.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ax-man _
> *Your not going to get any appreciating out of me MB, *




Then stay out the thread!


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## JonnyHart (Apr 1, 2004)

The tautline always works for me. And a couple of my past and present bosses only use one turn around the top of the hitch. I never tried it but I always refered to it as the bob hitch, or the paul hitch, or the russ, hitch, or whomever used it. I don't recomend or endorse this, just throwing it out there for the sake of conversation. be safe


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## murphy4trees (Apr 1, 2004)

Met a redneck climber in VA. and asked him "what kind of hitch do you use... have you ever tried a french prussic or do you just use a tautline?"... He had that look like "WHAT'S A TAUTLINE" so I added 2 under and 2 over...
He replied..."OH NO... I'm a speed climber 2 under...1 OVER..

That's the same guy that tried to kill his prune jobs with spikes so he could get the removal later..

Now he's the kind of guy that would really appreciate this TL appreciation thread..


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *
> 
> Now he's the kind of guy that would really appreciate this TL appreciation thread.. *




Don't be hating, Daniel.


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## TheSurgeon (Apr 1, 2004)

*new school*

I'm with Brian on this one. I've used a Blakes for some time, and knew of the Vt, distel, etc. but never tried them. Once Brian showed me in person, well, that's all she wrote. I might think of a Tautline sometimes, kinda like when I think about not climbing NEVER....... Currently switching over to the SRT, it takes a little while to set up, but it seems much more versitile.......


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## Lumberjack (Apr 1, 2004)

I used the blake's today on a second tie in on the tail of the climbing rope. I liked it fine. Thanks Eric for the thread on the blake's, I read it forever ago, but I used the knowledge today.


As for the tauntline, I have yet to give it a chance.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 1, 2004)

I was on the taughtline 3 below and one above my first year, then the blakes came out. Just more smooth and dont unroll i like it lots more. Tried the MT once or twice, but when tying into a pully the MT is just to fast.

I've had not problems with the blakes. If I fall on it it wont scench down like the taughtline, instead it will slip-grap-slips for several feet and then hold tight or so the pro's say. I have seen the taughtline burned into itself from a teenager that fell 30 onto it.
Edit: actually he fell onto a 2 inch stubb and the fliped line caught. He cut the stubb off and kept it with him for a few days.


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## topndrop (Feb 21, 2005)

I suppose I should chime in here as this was origonally my question regarding the number of above and below turns on the TLH that got all this started...

Thanks for all the interesting (and colorful) input regarding hitches. I have a couple things to say:

1.) Thanks to all the supporters of the TLH, which has for years stopped climbers from hitting the ground (and made us more than a few dollars besides).

2.) Even more thanks to those that develop and try out new rigging for us climbers to use that (sometimes) is easier and safer to use.

3.) For all the climbers and riggers represented here at ArborSite for the million or so years of accumulated knowledge. I actually do read the literature and also the information presented here and on other sites.

Although I have only been climbing trees for a living for about four years, I have a great deal of rock climbing experience (15+ years) and a lot of the gear is used in similar ways. I am ALWAYS looking for the SAFEST and FASTEST way to get the job done. Remember, "Nobody gets paid till we get out of here"...

My motto - "Nuthin got broke, Nobody got killed... it was a GREAT day!"


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 21, 2005)

I had completely forgotten 'bout this thread!  

TL fan club

:Eye:


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## xander9727 (Feb 21, 2005)

Me too.......I was kinda glad I forgot about it.

j/k


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## Ny finest (Feb 21, 2005)

TL always worked for me...after all its all I know


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## Ax-man (Feb 21, 2005)

MB, politely told me I had to stay out of this thread, cuz I don't appreciate a TL  

Larry


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

i free-fell about about 10 or 12' on a blakes like three weeks ago. that thing didnt move an inch! what a bite. dam near turned that knot inside out, but man did i go boink when i ran out of slack. archaic-maybe. but that is a dependable dependable hitch. i dont care _whatca _ say. easy to tie, and i cant understand _how _ it could be mis-tied. i might try the distel or some other advanced hitch, but probly not any time soon. 
butch dont listen to the h8rs. i know you dont, but...well, you know...


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## Lumberjack (Feb 22, 2005)

Where is ROCKY???


Why was there 10-12' of slack in your climbing line? I rarely have more than a foot of slack, 10-12 is unimaginable


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## MasterBlaster (Feb 22, 2005)

I have slack all the time, whut's the big deal?


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## alanarbor (Feb 22, 2005)

If there's a lot of slack in you line above you then you're going to freefall with a sudden stop, which could in itself cause injury, wheras if there is little or no slack, you won't have that jarring stop at the end......Unless of course you swing into the trunk!

Believe it or not a sudden stop can actually bounce your brain off the inside of your skull, causing severe injuries, even if theres no joint or muscle injuries associated. it's common in car accidents also.


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## alanarbor (Feb 22, 2005)

It's called coup/contrcoup injury as referred in the link below

Coup/Contrecoup brain injury


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

there was _no _ slack. it happened while rappelling on a removal.kind of a long/embarrassing story id rather not repeat. you can find it on mb's homepage if you really want...  
any way, my point is that the blakes will step up for you every time. at least iit has for me. and just for the sake of conversation, i normally keep a pretty close eye :Eye: on the slack- youd never see that kind of slack in my line unless i was held in place w/a positioning lanyard.


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

thanks alan. im highly  aware of such injury/hazard. the guy who taught me the ropes regularly kept what i thought was alot of slack in his line. and i always wondered if he wasnt putting himself at risk...


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

the tree i was in had a severe dog-leg and so i was afforded escape w/only a bruised ego and a sore neck/ i didnt smash into the spar. though in all fairness, i did not  visit a healthcare pro after.


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## hooks (Feb 22, 2005)

MB: I have used the th for 48 years also try all the new knots and toys. I still use th most of the time. old habits are hard to change.I use the swabish or distal with a pantin for footlocking. works good. hooks


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## alanarbor (Feb 22, 2005)

jason j ladue said:


> the tree i was in had a severe dog-leg and so i was afforded escape w/only a bruised ego and a sore neck/ i didnt smash into the spar. though in all fairness, i did not  visit a healthcare pro after.



So you went for a swing, not a straight drop & stop, right?


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

no. straight drop pretty much. it happened so quickly, im not sure of the exact trajectory of the fall. had to have been practically straight up-and-down though. there wasnt much swing at the end though. nobody else saw it happen. i was left dangling far enough away from the tree i had to call for a swing back to the spar


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

sorry bout the soft focus. its the only photo i have


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## alanarbor (Feb 22, 2005)

Ouch! Betcha had a little whiplash eh?


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

YEAH! pi55ed me offf too.  i got very  lucky that day. i figure i kicked one of the angels outta the band on that one. lets put it this way- if i was a cat, i'd only have 8 lives left. ive always been blessed w/ great providence. i hope i never  take it for granted. i dont know about God in the traditional sense, but i have felt more than once in my life, that some1 is looking out for me :angel: there must be _something _ keeping me here for _some _ reason. y'all be careful out there. dont take life, or anything else for granted. each day we're given is cause for worship and deep thanks. sorry, dont mean to get all sappy...


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## jason j ladue (Feb 22, 2005)

the worst part of that day was i had to finish three more trees! I tore 'em up!


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## Stumper (Feb 22, 2005)

alanarbor said:


> Believe it or not a sudden stop can actually bounce your brain off the inside of your skull, causing severe injuries, even if theres no joint or muscle injuries associated. it's common in car accidents also.




Given the injury decribed, approximately half of the professional climbers in the world appear to be at a 0% risk level.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 20, 2005)

murphy4trees said:


> I AM with Rocky



And just who is this "Rocky" character? :alien:


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

boxer isn't he - bit of a speech problem - likes running up stairs and fighting with Mr T


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

a i'm with you Jason - blakes are the way to go, never had one bind up so tight that i cant get it to shift - dont trust gizmos - if its mechanical no matter how simple, it can fail.


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## Lumberjack (Mar 21, 2005)

Tom D. Wilson said:


> dont trust gizmos - if its mechanical no matter how simple, it can fail.



Kinda an incorrect blanket statement aint it? 

Your rope can fail too, it was woven by a machine.


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 21, 2005)

Add chainsaws, cars and airplanes to the list 

Arbos are one of the last enclaves of rope on rope climbers in all of the working rope world. The mechanical tools have a great track record of dependability and performance.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

yeh but i'm not relying on a mechanical device to stop me from plumeting to my doom - - picky [email protected]@rd - and yes my ropes can fail so can my biners - i'v only had my own climbing gear for about 3 weeks - bought it all new and i still check everything before i climb - like to think i'm getting myself into the habbit - i trust the knotts i tie coz i know how to tie them properly - idont trust things with bearings and wheel and stuff - especially the work truks!!!


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

well i suppose you could be right T. Dunlap. i cant really imagine anything nsafe being allowed to be sold as climbing gear with in the industry ... never used them though .. probably will one day and will probably love em but at the mo my hooves are stuck in


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 21, 2005)

You've been climbing for three weeks and you don't trust gear?

Free your mind! 

I've been climbing for thirty years and I'm constantly checking my gear. Even when I climb with just a saddle and rope. 

I hope that you can some day learn about all of the possibilities available. Most of them will extend your healthy climbing career.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

no i'v been climbing since september last year - i do trust my gear - a million times more than i trusted the gear that we use at college and its noticable in my climbing - no target has been set that i cant reach i can set targetets were otheres can't and i may sound like i'm boastin but i'm proud of how my skills have improoved - and like you say you'v been climbing for 30 years and you check your gear all the time - i'v havn't even been climbing for a year and i check all my gear all the time- i mean whose to say that despite rigourus testing that one of my biners is a bit of a duff or its a collage biner and had been abused by some idiot or its clagged up with dirt - i preffered to find that out before my safety is depending onit- also i want to see how my ropes wear in so i get a feel for what is just normal wear and tare as well as checking for glazing and stuff - i can already see on my split tail where the rope is slightly flatter because this is where i tie my hitch. i know there is a lot out there and a lot of stuff is labour saving - but i dont want to become relient on them, i want to know that i can climb with out them - which i can!! - i can even make a harness using rope (very uncomfortable) and make a loop for tieing a prusik or khliemhiest (please disregard spellings) i think that to become the best climber i can i need to know the basics before getting into all the technical gizmo side of things - i do intend to try them out - particullary using a micro pulley as a slack tender when branch walking but i have no one to really show me these things - my boss and tutour are old skool - using prusik loops and have no desire to change - i'm going to a weekend put on by the ISA in england which is an introduction to tree climbing competitions with the sole purpose of picking up information and learning more things.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

and it not that i dont trust gear - its that i dont trust mechanicle things!


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 21, 2005)

You just gotta get yur mind right.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

MB its 12:40am here 'i'm on my sixth beer - and i mean proper beer none of your weak a$$ american pi$$ my mind aint up to much - i aint gonna go and buy sh!t taht i havn't been shown how to use or had a go on before hand - even if it is simple to use - there's always a knack to stuff


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## xander9727 (Mar 21, 2005)

A lot of the mechanical devices were specifically designed for rock climbing and caving. In tree care there is a lot more debris, weather extremes and chances for abuse than in the recreational arena. I do use mechanical devices both in rock climbing and in tree work. There are some that I feel are best left to recreational climbing, but that is only my opinion. I like using rope on rope on my climbing line to secure me in the tree. This easy to teach and works well. For work positioning lanyards mechanical devices are far superior. You are usually the most productive with what you are comfortable with. This really reduces the mental strain during the job.


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 21, 2005)

Tom D. Wilson said:


> MB its 12:40am here 'i'm on my sixth beer - and i mean proper beer none of your weak a$$ american pi$$ my mind aint up to much - i aint gonna go and buy sh!t taht i havn't been shown how to use or had a go on before hand - even if it is simple to use - there's always a knack to stuff




Hahaha. And you have a good one, my brother!


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## MasterBlaster (Mar 21, 2005)

Ya'll have WAY better tv 'cross the pond!


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## Tom Dunlap (Mar 21, 2005)

Xander,

Which tools make the crossover to treework and why? 

"For work positioning lanyards mechanical devices are far superior."

Do you really think so? Unless you use the Grillon or Positioner you have to unweight any mechanical. With a hitch and any slack tender the climber's weight can be fully on and still be adjusted. Am I missing something? Lanyard adjusters is one place that I think hitches work MUCH better. 

Wilson,

Skip the pulley for a slack tender. Just get yourself a swivel snap, they cost less than a pound and work just as well. One less thing to drop and more beer money in your pocket.


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## Tom D. Wilson (Mar 21, 2005)

i like the sounds of that; beer 12 - as you can gues - day off tommmorw!! -can you make that work with a blakes?? i'v heard you can use Biners for the same purpose- where abouts do you attch em for them to work bes


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## treeclimber jul (Mar 23, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I'm not seeing too much appreciation here.
> 
> Since I'm the only one that uses this hitch, I feel it is my responsibility to keep using it.


I use the blakes or a special French knot that incorperates a micro pulley and biner


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## pantheraba (May 6, 2005)

murphy4trees said:


> Met a redneck climber in VA. and asked him "what kind of hitch do you use... have you ever tried a french prussic or do you just use a tautline?"... He had that look like "WHAT'S A TAUTLINE" so I added 2 under and 2 over...
> He replied..."OH NO... I'm a speed climber 2 under...1 OVER..



MB, I just discovered this thread...a REAL long one. 

I was taught the "2 under, 1 over" way back and have used it lots. For an ornery rope, I would go 2 over 2...so you can count me as a "taut line appreciater". My teacher, Mike McCue, taught it to me when I was about 40 feet up and ready to come down one day. He was tired of me rappelling down (on a biner wrap the way the Rangers taught me) and talked me into tying and trying the TL...man, was it hard to let go of that knot in order to stop!!

That being said, this forum has got my head spinning with Blakes, Distels, VTs, knutes, blah, blah. I am still trying to sort it all out. I plan to try some of them, especially for a lanyard. My current lanyard with "built-in prusick" is a real pain to adjust...sometimes it gets super tight and almost impossible to adjust until I loosen the wraps.

But, I promise you this...if I do find another favorite the TL will always have a special place in my heart...I doos appreciate it.


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## a_lopa (May 7, 2005)

you shouldnt be aloud to climb a tree unless you can tie it IMO


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## jamie (May 7, 2005)

*never*

never tied it, never really plan to, if needs be i can tie a 4 wrap prussic. 

jamie


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## clearance (May 7, 2005)

I climb with a mechanical adjustable steelcore that can be tightened by pulling one end but has to be squeezed to release. Works awesome, all I have ever used, guys older tell me it beats everthing they used before. I rappel down with a two down-one up taughtline. I feel very stable and secure when I have my steelcore around the tree and am tied in with a tautline hitch, standing in my spurs of course. You have to be planted good to push off branches that are overhanging the primary, or tops that could hit the primary. Tautline with an 8 in the tail, always.


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## Ax-man (May 7, 2005)

jamie said:


> never tied it, never really plan to, if needs be i can tie a 4 wrap prussic.
> 
> jamie


_________________________________________________________________

You are not missing out on anything, by not using this old climbing knot. Trust me, there are no fond memories attached to using this hitch. OOPS, I forgot MB told me to keep out of this thread.  

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (May 7, 2005)

Don't be hating!


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## jamie (May 7, 2005)

*ok*

from looking at them a distel looks like a taughtline with the tail tied off and a few more wraps above?

or am i just tying it really wrong?

jamie


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## Ax-man (May 7, 2005)

I'm not hating, Butch, kinda of being a burr under your saddle, stirring the pot up a little. LOL. I just don't see why climbers stick with the Tautline, when there are other smoother working hitches, that perform better. To each his own, right. 

Larry


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## Ax-man (May 7, 2005)

Your right Jamie, it is a closed Tautline and it is also upside down from the way you would normally tie it on a climbing line with a tail and an eight for a stopper.

Larry


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## JODY MESSICK (May 7, 2005)

I Used The 2 Under 1 Over Speed Knot My First Year Climbing Because Thats All I Was Taught Then Switched To The 2 And 2 Because I Would Always Have To Tightin It .i Use A Blakes Hitch Now It Is Much Better , The Guys At Work Have Never Heard Of It .


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 9, 2005)

I've had this one client for several years now and I just ralized today that he is climbing on a taughtline with a bo'lin tiler directly to his saddle.

I've been razzing him about oldschool, but when he had to untile everything when I shifted his TIP for him ....


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## MasterBlaster (May 9, 2005)

Ha! We don't need no stinking snaps!


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## pantheraba (May 9, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Ha! We don't need no stinking snaps!



I only recently discovered the split tail thru youse guys. Until recently, I used a double butterfly on the end of my climbing line...the loose leg (tail rope) of the b-fly was what I used to tie my tautline.

The split tail is so obvious now...thanks to this site and TB. I made my first one with a biner and bowline...I have 2 proper ones on the way from Wespur now. I'll start playing with something besides the tautline now.


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## Jim1NZ (May 10, 2005)

I have tried them all and use a mix of most.
Klemheist - footlocking
Distil - lanyard
French - climbing, the best i have found. Best when using a solid pulley and tying one end if the prussic to the pulley, dam i need a digital camera!


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## Ohioclimber82 (May 25, 2005)

*Climbing With A TLH.*

Well I am kinda surprised to see nobody is still using this knot? I guess the fact that Im over 40 might have a little to do with it. To be honest I have seen the new generation of climbers and I am not impressed in the least bit! The new bread of men pretty much dont have a clue as to how to climb a tree. Back when we trained a climber didnt see a set of spurs or a chain saw for one year. When you did earn the right to have a saw in a tree you pulled up a Super Wiz 66 and made your cuts. Need I say more to all you young bucks? By the way we tied rope saddles too. Im just an old fart in Ohio. Rick


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## NickfromWI (May 25, 2005)

Rick, there are still a LOT of people using the tautline. Thing is, many of those people don't get into computers that much, so looking at this site, you'd think that tree climbers across the US are using very modern techniques and equipment. You're looking at a skewed representation of the population here.

Trust me, the TLH is in full force all over this country. I'm sure it is the most popular hitch in America.

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (May 25, 2005)

And there ya go!


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## a_lopa (May 26, 2005)

thats funny,id guarantee 95%of climbers here use a loop with a english prussik,before that it was 8 plat with t/l


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## MasterBlaster (May 26, 2005)

Well you Aussies _are_ an advanced group of wankers!


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## Ax-man (May 26, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I've never climbed on a tautline. Not even once.


_________________________________________________________________

Be thankful for that Dan, your not missing much. I had to use a Blakes a while for a quick hitch, the friction in that one about drove me nuts, glad I switched  

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (May 26, 2005)

Remember, this is an _appreciation_ thread, boys!


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## Ax-man (May 26, 2005)

Oops, sorry MB,, I forgot  

Larry


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## MasterBlaster (May 26, 2005)

Never forget! It's all good!


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## tophopper (May 26, 2005)

Man, just for giggles I read this entire thread again. Sure has been mutilated and cut up. Pretty funny actually


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## MasterBlaster (May 27, 2005)

It's a shame people felt they had to delete threads.


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## jmack (May 27, 2005)

*th*



MasterBlaster said:


> Okay, I know I'm not the only climber that uses this simple, effective hitch. I read the threads going on and on about all the 'modern' hitches and all those mechanical gizmos for ascending/descending. Cool. Someday I might switch, but for now the good 'ole TH works for me.
> 
> So who else uses this dinosaur knot?


 yes i still use it when i am double crotching by the way, mb if it aint broke dont fix it ayuh


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## MasterBlaster (May 27, 2005)

Finally, some appreciation. Thanks, J!


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## Thor's Hammer (May 27, 2005)

Never used a TL hitch, but use a blakes all the time guess its pretty close. previous to that it was a 2 wrap prussik.


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## matthias (May 27, 2005)

I've only seen pictures of "progressive" climbing hitches but it appears to me that you couldn't bodythrust with it. So do you pull with the right and tend the slack with the left or are these hitches loose enough unloaded that you pull hand over hand above the hitch and the slack just plays through the hitch and tender?


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## Stumper (May 27, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> I appreciate the taunt line hitch for what it is. A relic from the past. Kind of like a living dinosaur.
> 
> Dan



Kind of like crocodiles, alligators, Komodo dragons and..........Butch.


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## matthias (May 27, 2005)

Thanks for the explanation Dan.


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## treeseer (May 27, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> You taunt line users sure have a sense of humor
> I appreciate the taunt line hitch for what it is. A relic from the past. Kind of like a living dinosaur.


Makes me mildly Mesozoic then.  You'd best not taunt the tautliners tho; we can lash back like a Tyranno's tail.

Re advancing, the Pantin does the best job of this for me. And bodythrusting is such great crosstraining for intimate pursuits, no one with a gut smaller than two watermelons should mock that exercise.

Dan those hand ascenders of yours I used in Pittsburgh hurt my shoulders sumthin awful. I didn't say much about it at the time; didn't want to hurt your feelings. Dunlap got me up in a big elm in MN using similar gizmoes; I'm aways away now  so I'll say I was skeered spitless relying on metal trinkets in my hands, looking down on 30' of air.

Somehow working the pelvis is easier for me; the rhythm is hypnotic, speshly with a dynamic line.


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## MasterBlaster (May 27, 2005)

And oh so easy to do.


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## treeseer (May 27, 2005)

TreeCo said:


> Hey Guy, They hurt your shoulders because you had a death grip on the ascenders.


No doubt I was squeezin; any new method is going to tighten the nerves I guess. it was a life-or-death grip; with practice I'd ease up and be more efficient, sure. Maybe in Nashville we could share some tricks and swap styles again, not that anyone would have much to learn from my way...If I used the vt for a half a day, it might ingrain as a new habit. I'll bet you and Nick and Tom and...thought sure I'd pick it up after you learned me on it; sorry to disappoint. 

I'm tryin' to get the blaster up there, but he's shyin away so far. Maybe some peer-group pressure will get him up there to watch Strasser and the other gibbons in the tcc, and do some rec climbin.

Then again if he's in a class by himself, is there a peer in his group to pressure him?


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## TheTreeSpyder (May 27, 2005)

i think ye olde Tautline, or dropping a ring off the top coil (making from a round turn to a simple turn on top) is more like a Midshipman's knot, more for utility, but was used for 'live' cargo too aboard ship. A Tarbuck was similar and used in tree werk.

i think that the 'newer' hitches and the Blake's work more on a 'sock' grip through the coils covering over the host lifeline and pulling long ways down it; this grip is so intense, that something is done to the bottom coils generally to disturb them or precede them so that slide and not just hold is possible with the friction hitch. This arrangement also seems to pull more in line with the host line, rather than leveraged across, especially in VT. 

i think a Tautline, Midshipman's, Tarbuck as a family of hitches, work more on the mechanics of the primary/active pull coming from a 2nd tier up, giving more of a leverage to bend the host line, make a bigger dent to affect grip/hold. A different strategy of hold/slide i think. Thus more leveraged weakness (bend) to host lifeline (with tautline), as more dent across if that is chosen rather than a 'sock' strategy over the line pulled directly down/ inline with host line(less bend to host lifeline) with 'newer' hitches?


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## MasterBlaster (May 27, 2005)

treeseer said:


> Then again if he's in a class by himself, is there a peer in his group to pressure him?




And there ya go!


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## treeseer (May 27, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> And there ya go!


That was a Set-Up line if there ever was one, huh? I knew you wouldn't resist. You're welcome! 

Now, back to the ranch; I'll try to find out what parks the tcc and the Saturday afternoon workshops will be in. Maybe we could scale a few there. MB will be there or be square; after all it's right next door to eastern LA.


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## John Paul Sanborn (May 28, 2005)

Just tell him you're supplying the burbon and ganja after-hours. Butch'l be there with bells on his toes.


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## MasterBlaster (May 28, 2005)

Bells. Ha!


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## Can-Do-It (May 30, 2005)

I've got to put my two cents in. I also use the TLH. 3 down 1 up.

Its a good knot .... and I don't need an excuess to you it. 

This forum is great for new idea's and equipment. I know that in the past 3-4 years I've changed just about every thing on by climbing belt to the new equipment types .. new rope, split-tell, tie straps, big-foot, macro accender (best tool yet). New hand saws, new power saws, But no new accending knot. 

Have a Blessed Day,


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## MasterBlaster (May 30, 2005)

Can-Do-It said:


> I also use the TLH. 3 down 1 up.



Three down? You must have a bit of a gut, eh? No problemno, just watch out! Others here will attempt to sway you from the ways of the TL.

Ultimately, it's your choice my brother.


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## Jim1NZ (May 31, 2005)

True that MB


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## Theodore (Aug 12, 2005)

Well, call me a dinosaur if you like, but I use a Tautline setup. It may be old school but if it ain't broke...


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## Gypo Logger (Aug 12, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I'm not seeing too much appreciation here.
> 
> Since I'm the only one that uses this hitch, I feel it is my responsibility to keep using it.


 I never thought I'd actually read a whole thread about climbing but this has been some real entertainment. Comedy in it's highest form. Maas and Rocky were in true form.
Can someone show a pic of a TH, I am interested to see one. In defence of Butch, I think he was in the Navy and maybe learned the knots there, sorta like Pirates on the Carribean or something like that.





John


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## Gypo Logger (Aug 12, 2005)

Hi Dan, a B&W would be fine. The only knot I know how to tie is the barrel knot for tying on flies to a leader.
Speaking of tying flies, check out the Coho pattern I made.
John


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## hobby climber (Aug 12, 2005)

Good one GL !


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## stehansen (Aug 14, 2005)

I used the tautline until I tried the Blake's and the Blake's hitch slides up the rope a lot easier when body thrusting or just taking up slack. The Blake's hitch also switched from sliding to gripping better than the tautline. I haven't tried any of the advanced hitches.


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