# A different way to sharpen a chain.



## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

Having ran chainsaws for over 16 years to cut firewood for are own consumption. Having never taken a chain in for sharpening in those 16 years. And having a dad to learn from that really never could sharpen a chain properly. And never having any books or the internet that told me how to sharpen a chain properly.

Considering the fact that I haven’t frozen to death. That means that I have pretty much come up with my own system to sharpening chains.

I have looked back through the old post as far as I could find and I haven’t really seen anyone mention a system like my system, on this board.

So, if it will help anyone, I will stick my nose out and explain how I have learnt to sharpen chains to get smooth cutting, and consistent cutting speed.

Rules.

First rule. You are sharpening a chain, not individual teeth. The cutting that a tooth does, is more affected by the teeth, and the rakes on the links around it than it is by the rake on the link that the tooth is on it’s self.

Second rule. They move as a group, not as individual teeth. 

Third rule. The cutting speed of all teeth is controlled by the tooth that cuts the slowest that is in the cutting channel.

Fourth rule. The incoming wood angle and The travel speed is the sum of the forward speed vector and the cutting speed vector.

Fifth rule. The cutting speed is more of the function of rake height compared to the tooth preceding it on the same side. Not the one following it (the one on the same link.)



The total downward travel speed (cutting speed) is controlled by the rake running in the cutting channel. And logic has it that it is running in the channel left by the preceding tooth. It can’t be running in the channel of the tooth that is on the same link, because it follows behind it .

So, if rake height is set 25 thou below the tooth height, when the chain travels a distance equal to the distance between two cutting teeth on the same side, then the chain will move down 25 thou.

The set of links that have the smallest difference between the rake height and the tooth preceding it will restrict the cutting speed of all the other teeth in the cut.

If you have one short tooth that is only 10 thou above the rake behind it, then all the rest of the teeth will be cutting 10 thou when it’s in the cutting channel. That is even when all the rakes are set to 25 thou below the tooth that is on the same link


The other thing to remember is sharpen each tooth based upon it’s wear, not the wear of any other tooth. You want all teeth to contribute equally to the cut. The wear will tell you if it is taking more or less out of the cut than the other teeth. 

The wear can be determined by the flattened leading edge at the very front of the top of the tooth. When you look at it in bright light you will see the glint from it. Sharpen the tooth back till you remove that flattened edge.

If a tooth shows no sign of wear when you sharpen a chain, then don’t sharpen that tooth. Over time, the other teeth will come down to match that tooth. Then you can start to sharpen it as much as the other teeth when it starts to show as much wear.

Remember, we a sharpening a chain, not individual teeth. Just because you have the rake set 25 thou lower than the tooth doesn’t mean it’s going to do any cutting, if it is short enough that it can’t reach the wood. 

Just because it’s a new chain doesn’t mean that all the teeth will cut evenly! There is manufacturing variations and tolerances. You will occasionally have a greedy tooth that cuts more than all the rest. That one will need to be filed down more than the other ones until they start wearing evenly as a set.

And some times you get a chain which has one side that has the teeth sticking out higher. So one side will have to be sharpened a little more each time you sharpen it until it starts evening out.

A good (accidental) rock grind is a quick way to find out which teeth are sticking out more. It’s obvious if you have any tall teeth after you hit a rock.

If you don’t want to take the time to set each rake by the height of the tooth in front, then it is easier to just grind the rakes down as a group. Not based on the height of the tooth in front of it.

I normally just sharpen the teeth based on wear until the chips start getting small, then I bring the rakes down as a set. Bring all the rakes down the same amount. Get the rakes about 30 thou below the average tooth height. If the chain has been sharpened evenly, then there should be little difference among the height of the teeth on the chain. Given the occasional rock damaged tooth that is shorter than the rest. 

On the occasional rock damaged tooth, you probably want to take of a little on the rake following it so it won‘t slow down the cutting speed.

The cutting area is separated into three zones. The right tooth side, the left tooth side, and the overlap area. The right and left tooth side take 25 thou each pass, while the overlap area gets a 12 thou cut each pass because it is cut by both sides.


Lets look at the cutting done by a chain of teeth on one side.

Lets say you have all the rakes set to 25 thou below the tooth on the same link, but one of the teeth is 10 thou shorter than the rest.

N= normal
S= short
(amount of cut in thousandths)
N ,N ,N ,S , N , N , N
15, 15, 15, 5, 25, 15, 15. 

The only tooth that is cutting the full 25 thou is the one behind the short tooth. Cut speed is set by the by the smallest difference in height, that is between the short tooth and the rake on the one behind it. That is 15 thousandths per chain travel equal to the distance between the teeth on the same side.

If you set rake height based on the tooth preceding it. Then this is the cutting pattern.

N ,N ,N ,S , N , N , N
25, 25, 25, 15, 35, 25, 25.

Considering the wear will eat away at the tooth following the short one, and the short one will wear less, then after sharpening, the cutting pattern will start to look like this. 

N ,N ,N ,S , N , N , N
25, 25, 25, 17, 31, 27, 25.

Then

N ,N ,N ,S , N , N , N ,N
25, 25, 25, 20, 27, 27, 26, 25

All the time maintaining a constant average of 25 thou per tooth, cutting speed.


If you sharpen based on wear with all the rakes set to the same height then cutting speed will be limited to the shortest tooth. But as you file down based on wear, then all the teeth should get close to the same height above the rakes and wear/cut evenly.

All you have to pay attention to is a short (previously damaged tooth) that you will have to cut the rake down behind it a little more than the rest so it don’t affect cutting speed when it is in the cut channel.

As I previously stated.
“I normally just sharpen the teeth based on wear until the chips start getting small, then I bring the rakes down as a set. Bring all the rakes down the same amount. Get the rakes about 30 thou below the average tooth height. If the chain has been sharpened evenly, then there should be little difference among the height of the teeth on the chain. Given the occasional rock damaged tooth that is shorter than the rest.

On the occasional rock damaged tooth, you probably want to take of a little on the rake following it so it won‘t slow down the cutting speed.”

The reason I state “Bring them down the same amount” instead of worrying about measuring their height compared to anything else is…… The rake that rides the wood the most, and slows down the cutting speed the most is the one that wears the most. So, after a good amount of cutting, then all the rakes should be close to the same height below the preceding tooth. You want to keep the height difference the same from set to set, so you just bring all them down the same amount. (The same number of passes with a flat file.) 

I can make up a couple pictures to illustrate what I am talking about if anyone wants.


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## scootr (Nov 7, 2008)

Could you expand on that explanation? LOL. Interesting, will take some time to digest that one.

Welcome to the club.


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## husky455rancher (Nov 7, 2008)

woah i just throw em on the grinder at my dads lol. welcome btw


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## LarryTheCableGuy (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey Gary...

.


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## superfire (Nov 7, 2008)

*velcome*

  
i need another beer and may be then i can decipher this jiberish science. ithink what works is what you get by learnin from your pass errors. me i started hand filin chain with out a :censored: clue as to what the reason the cuttters and riders did together, learned a few basics from books then a few old timers showed me how to get better results. one thing i found is use the same number of file strokes on both sides then the cut all match in face to tail length.


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## Rusty99 (Nov 7, 2008)

Welcome! 

Wow, definitely a thorough explanation you've got there, I'll need some time to let it all settle in. 

Rusty


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## cmetalbend (Nov 7, 2008)

Ok ,but what about what about my skip tooth chain, :jawdrop: Really there might be some good info, but alot of crap. You need to take it up to about 1/4 throttle and find a groove before you get tagged as another "RED" I'll let the other's explain that, gotta go NASA's Buzzin on the other computer.:monkey:


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## Tzed250 (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> Having ran chainsaws for over 16 years to cut firewood for are own consumption. Having never taken a chain in for sharpening in those 16 years. And having a dad to learn from that really never could sharpen a chain properly. And never having any books or the internet that told me how to sharpen a chain properly.
> 
> 
> 
> I can make up a couple pictures to illustrate what I am talking about if anyone wants.



Have you ever seen a slow motion video of how a chain cuts?


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## Mr. Obvious (Nov 7, 2008)

This guy is clearly identified as someone who has never had a date.

By the way your statement 

QUOTE]The cutting speed of all teeth is controlled by the tooth that cuts the slowest that is in the cutting channel.[/QUOTE]

seems to be a little off since all cutters are moving at the same speed since they are all attached together. One tooth can't cut slower than the next.

As in all scientific theory, if one of the fundamental assumptions is wrong, the remaining jibberish is to be discarded.


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## Mr. Obvious (Nov 7, 2008)

By the way, this guy reminds me of one of my past chinese PhD students who once told me he had proven that God exists. Funny thing is he would never show me the proof.


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## belgian (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> I can make up a couple pictures to illustrate what I am talking about if anyone wants.



opcorn: opcorn:


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## 777ER (Nov 7, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> Have you ever seen a slow motion video of how a chain cuts?



Is there one?

I'd like to see it.


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## woodbine (Nov 7, 2008)

Sorry , I just thought it was a joke. I thought " at last an American with a British sense of humour - a beautiful blend of fact and fiction "


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## nilzlofgren (Nov 7, 2008)

I thought the first rule of chain sharpening, was that you don't talk about chain sharpening.


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## mountainlake (Nov 7, 2008)

I think he's trying to say keep the rakers at the proper hieght. Steve


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## Slamm (Nov 7, 2008)

Uhhhh so what you are trying to say is:

Keep the teeth sharp and the rakers at the right hieght, and these things will help the whole chain cut faster. Is that what you are saying?

I too was never given a book or video on how to sharpen a chain, as a matter of fact your "book" is the first I have read on this subject. That being said, I guess, I should look forward to the new "illustrated" version. Up until this point, I had always just made sure the rakers were set at a good hieght and the teeth were sharp, amazingly I never put anymore thought into it than that, lol.

I did have an amish cutter that sharpened his chain with the file completely perpendicular to the chain/bar and his saws always cut very nicely. I have yet to try this method but soemday I might, right after I start thinking of the chain as a team.

Very odd,

Sam


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## troutfisher (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS, that is very impressive! Please continue, I'd like to read more. Do you change your rules from softwood to hardwood?


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

Mr. Obvious said:


> By the way your statement
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The cutting speed isn’t it’s speed traveling down the bar. The cutting speed is how big of a layer of wood it’s taking as it passes through the cut channel.


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## BobL (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> The cutting speed isn’t it’s speed traveling down the bar. The cutting speed is how big of a layer of wood it’s taking as it passes through the cut channel.



Actually it's both:
Cutting speed is distance cut per unit time

"Inches of wood per layer x Number of layers or passes per unit time (rpm)." 

I never read sharpening books either. I watched my Pa and did what I reckoned he did and he just slapped my hand when I did it wrong! I guess he never read any education books either, actually he did but later on in his life. . . .


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## Zodiac45 (Nov 7, 2008)

BobL said:


> Actually it's both:
> Cutting speed is distance cut per unit time
> 
> "Inches of wood per layer x Number of layers or passes per unit time (rpm)."
> ...



+1 Bob, good equasion.


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

troutfisher said:


> N9WOS, that is very impressive! Please continue, I'd like to read more. Do you change your rules from softwood to hardwood?




How you change the sharpening pattern from soft wood to hard wood depends on if you want the teeth to lift when they go through the cut channel.

The cutting point is elevated above the support point. The chain is flexible, so when it is in the cut, and there isn’t enough force to keep the cutting link seated, the front of the tooth will lift up until the rake is dragging the wood.

Non lifting. There is enough down force and downward travel to keep all the links with the teeth fully seated, and in full cut.

Full cut is where you can put more down force on the bar and it doesn’t bog down the motor any more, or increase the cutting speed. That means that all links are solidly seated in the bar, running solidly on the rakes and all teeth are getting there full 25 thou. That is what my first post detailed. A way to sharpen a chain to maintain an even full cut for maximum cutting speed.

Lifting. There isn’t as much force down, as there is pulling force. So the front of the cutting links start to come up off the bar.

The teeth take less of bite because they are only taking a fraction of the full 25 thou. Thus, not maintaining maximum cutting speed.

If you look at the layout of the teeth, you will see that when it’s new the teeth can lift up to 30 to 40 thou and still remain actively cutting. Any more than that, then the rake will come above the cutting edge, the tooth will lose contact, and the tooth will drop back down.

The links at the end of the bar close to the motor will tend to lift less because of the pull force from all the other links that tend to keep it fully seated.

The lifting action helps compensate for height differences in teeth when the chain is new.

But as teeth wear, the cutting edge moves back to the back end of the link. So, when the front of the link lifts, then the actual cutting edge (at the back of the link) no longer comes up with it. So it don’t make a difference if the links are lifting or not.

For soft wood that takes little pull force per tooth, then you assume no lifting. Thus my method of sharpening in the earlier post to make sure all teeth stay fully into the cut.

Hard woods that take a lot of pull per tooth, then you can sharpen for lifting when the chain is new and the saw doesn’t have enough gumption to pull the chain when the teeth are at full cut. For that mode of cutting, you can set the rake height based on the tooth behind it. (traditional method)

But as the chain comes to the end of it’s life, then you need to start setting the rakes based on the tooth in front of them. That is because the link doesn’t really have any lifting action.

For hardwoods with a chainsaw that can pull the chain in full cut, then you can go for the method in my first post.


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

BobL said:


> Actually it's both:
> Cutting speed is distance cut per unit time
> 
> "Inches of wood per layer x Number of layers or passes per unit time (rpm)."
> ...



Yes, but I am assuming for all practical purposes that the chainsaw is big enough to pull the chain at close to full speed, so travel speed down the bar can be ignored for practical purposes. 

So the equation drops down to how much the teeth can remove each pass.

:sword:


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> Having ran chainsaws for over 16 years to cut firewood for are own consumption. Having never taken a chain in for sharpening in those 16 years. And having a dad to learn from that really never could sharpen a chain properly. And never having any books or the internet that told me how to sharpen a chain properly.





WTF

 please make that a sixpack


Heres the way I look at Chainsaw Chain..

if its stihl use a grinder, if its a cheap chain use a grinder, if your in the field use a new chain and if it gets unsharp ues a new chain (thats the beer talking) then use a grinder then if you have a file and its a cheap chain ues a file the beer again. by the way I now cross eyed and out of beer so    dmnit


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## Crofter (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> How you change the sharpening pattern from soft wood to hard wood depends on if you want the teeth to lift when they go through the cut channel.
> 
> The cutting point is elevated above the support point. The chain is flexible, so when it is in the cut, and there isn’t enough force to keep the cutting link seated, the front of the tooth will lift up until the rake is dragging the wood.
> 
> ...



I see some food for thought here. The theory of how a chain actually cuts if you could be view it in 3D slow motion would be a lot different than we usually think of it. I think Z250 posted some video here a number of years back. I like to think of it as a string of cutting kites being pulled one behind the other with each one having some limited individual motion but still influenced by whatever its front and rear partners are doing. I think N9WOS has made some interesting observations that tie in with other things we have read like progressive raker lowering as the chain wears back and leverage and angle of attack change relationships. The chattering in hard wood with too much raker clearance is spot on.

The normal intermittent or bobbing action of each cutter can be influenced by raker clearance, chain tension, how far back the tooth is worn, amount of hook and sharpening angles, whether upcut or down, and by the amount of pressure applied to the saw. If you use anything within reasonable recommended dimensions and dont get ridiculously extreme in tooth sizes you may never in a life of cutting run into it or have to worry about why.

Some of those things become much more important if you are trying to make a competition chain but I guess if you do it right you really dont have to know *why* it works there either. One thing you will always see is the cutter taken back to the rear rivet. 

Normally a cutter makes a bit of a scoop sideways at the same time it makes its shallow scoop downwards. How hard the chain is dragging its top cutter affects how much it skews out sideways too. I will attach a picture of different cuts in the same wood with only minor changes in raker and alteration of the side cutter that changed its way of cutting from intermittent to almost continuous pulls across the piece. The wood was red maple and the chain square ground. Just something I was playing with at the time. I can spend a lot of time trying to figure out what makes things tick, not that I have capitalized on much of it though.

I had not thought of the significance of the raker height of preceding same side cutter because I just dont get them that out of whack unless it is my stump and nail chain and it doesnt cut fast or smooth anyway! I think his hypothesis makes sense for a chain with higher rakers and being pushed on, more so than one with more aggressive raker and less chain pressure.


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## Cedarkerf (Nov 7, 2008)

Sounds like must cost a lotta money for a chain to put this much thought into it. My Grandad dropped out of the sixth grade and figured out how to sharpen a chain well enough to cut this tree down in less than a day.


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## cmetalbend (Nov 7, 2008)

Cedarkerf said:


> Sounds like must cost a lotta money for a chain to put this much thought into it. My Grandad dropped out of the sixth grade and figured out how to sharpen a chain well enough to cut this tree down in less than a day.



That's interesting, What type of tree is that? Think I'd need a little more than my 280 echo for that. LOL


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## Cedarkerf (Nov 7, 2008)

Douglas Fir. Orygun 1950s


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

Here is a start on the illustrations.

How a lifting tooth works.

The example link in these pics is really small compared to the cut. It’s only 210 thousandths long and 120 thousandths tall, with a 25 thou cut. That way it magnifies the angles to make it easier to see.

Tooth- New tooth 25 thou cut

Old tooth- end of life tooth with same 25 thou cut.

Lift- new tooth close to maximum lift of 43 thou. 7 thou cut in that position.

Old tooth lift. Old one close to maximum lift of 19 thou. 7 thou cut in that position.

If you have the too low of angle on the cutting face then when the tooth lifts, the angle will go vertical and the chain will start jumping.


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 7, 2008)

How do you keep the lift constant? It would change with load, chain temp, sharpness of the cutters,amount of oil.........


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## Crofter (Nov 7, 2008)

Stihl 041S said:


> How do you keep the lift constant? It would change with load, chain temp, sharpness of the cutters,amount of oil.........



And chain tension, up cut / downcut etc. Probably, no, _certainly_ more of theoretical than otherwise and I cant see a lot of people applying it in the field, but I do find it interesting. 

Kind of like discussing all the things that can contribute to causes or cures of chatter in machining. 

The only time I have really come across some weird chain tooth configurations is when someone was trying to compensate for a running off cut and was not attacking the real cause. I have not tried it myself but have seen it claimed that a chain could have longer cutters one side than the other and as long as the rakers were set *proportionally* it would still cut straight.


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 7, 2008)

Crofter;
I'm running a machine as I read this thread. Machine variables made me think of such things. Insert companys take all things and give us a workable average. 
Good reamers have uneven spacing on the teeth to keep vibration down. Formula in the Machinery Handbook for it.
.
You can't cover all the fine points and make money.


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## ray benson (Nov 7, 2008)

Took this off the Carlton site.


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## 777ER (Nov 7, 2008)

You mean like in the way the attached image shows?

Also see page 19 and 20 of this link:
http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf

I think what you're talking about is relative to the hinge point of the cutter itself.


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## Slamm (Nov 7, 2008)

Thinking of the chain as a "team" and now Dolphins in the ocean. Perfect.

It's all getting clearer ...... no really it is, LOL.

Sam


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## bigjake (Nov 7, 2008)

Man my brain is smokin. The last pic did clear it all up .And how many people 
here are wearing tin foil hats LOL or 10


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## Tzed250 (Nov 7, 2008)

The OP is smart, but making guesses. 

I do have the video that Frank mentioned, but I have never been able to post it here(still VHS). 

The video shows the cutters diving in and out of the fiber in a sine wave motion. They do not stay seated on the bar rail. 

Let's not forget that the real work done by the cutter is done with the side plate, not the top plate.

Pulling the fibers away from each other is easy. Severing the fibers is much harder.


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## Tzed250 (Nov 7, 2008)

Stihl 041S said:


> Crofter;
> I'm running a machine as I read this thread. Machine variables made me think of such things. Insert companys take all things and give us a workable average.
> Good reamers have uneven spacing on the teeth to keep vibration down. Formula in the Machinery Handbook for it.
> .
> You can't cover all the fine points and make money.



Haha!!! Me too!!!

Surface speed X feed/tooth= feedrate


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## 777ER (Nov 7, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> The video shows the cutters diving in and out of the fiber in a sine wave motion. They do not stay seated on the bar rail.



So this brings up a issue about chain tension.
Like does a slightly loose chain cut more and does 'dolphins swiming' on a larger scale? 
On the other hand, a loose chain can also create problems staying on the bar or has a tendency to throw itself off.
Where a chain too tight will do less cutting as a loose one?


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## Stihl 041S (Nov 7, 2008)

Tzed250;
You mean all you got to back up you hair brained ideas is a bunch of facts?????




Well okay then, very nice post. mongo sorry.


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## stihl only (Nov 7, 2008)

I only use the Stihl 33SSC chain. It is a greatly improved design with shark swimming cutters!


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> The OP is smart, but making guesses.



Yes I am making guesses. (but not that smart) When you work with incomplete information, a guess is all you can make. 

I keep guessing till I get a system that works for me.

I was just posting it here to see if anyone else would think it was useful.


People can take it or leave it. Don’t bother me either way.

I also appreciate the other information that other people are posting. As they say, you learn something every day. As they say, if your not learning, your probably dead.


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## Slamm (Nov 7, 2008)

> As they say, if your not learning, your probably dead.



Or you voted for Obama ...... Sorry, sorry it just slipped, LOL.

Sam


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## ray benson (Nov 7, 2008)

Hopefully one day that slow-motion video of the chainsaw chain will make it to You Tube.


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## BobL (Nov 7, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> Let's not forget that the real work done by the cutter is done with the side plate, not the top plate.



That depends if you are cross cutting or down long milling.

When cross cutting the side plate does indeed cut more fibres than the top plate but whether cutting fibres is more work than punching in between fibres depends on the timber. Interlocking fibre hardwoods are sometimes as hard to cut in either direction.


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

> Took this off the Carlton site.



Well… If it sets up a feedback loop which keeps the chain in oscillation. Bouncing back between the rail and the wood. Then it should be easy to tape. Just put the chainsaw onto a piece of wood with the power head four or five inches from the piece being cut. With the returning teeth in view. You should be able to see the chain waves being carried out of the cut channel.


The other question with mechanical oscillations is….. What is the parameters needed to maintain it. Will the chain only oscillate like that in long cut channels. Or will it also do that in short ones. Will compression force (downward force) dampen the oscillation.

How that method would remove wood is a depression would move along the cut channel along with the chain oscillation. It wouldn’t be cutting at the entire channel at any one time. It would be chipping away at it in waves.

One obvious place it doesn’t do it is when someone is noodling.

And just because the wood comes out in chips does not mean that it isn’t being removed in a continuous strip from the cut channel. Wood doesn’t bend very well, so it naturally breaks into chunks when it is being cut.

Like a sawmill close to here. When the owner is pushing the logs through at full speed each tooth is removing a good 1/16 to 1/8 layer. The stuff that comes out is in little chunks. I know the teeth isn’t oscillating because the cut marks on the pieces coming out go from top to bottom of the piece. It comes out in chunks because the wood just breaks that way.

I will have to look at the witness marks on some of the wood I have cut to see if, and where there is any indication of tooth oscillation. 

Another way a person could find out is start cutting a cake off a big piece and just yank the chain up in mid cut. Knock the cake off of the cut channel and look to see if it looks like the last few passes were continuous from front to back, or if it was going in a wave motion down the cut channel.

I will have to look into this more.


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## chainsawwhisperer (Nov 7, 2008)

This is a fantastic thread, one of the more interesting ones in recent memory CSW


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## Crofter (Nov 7, 2008)

Did you not open my attachments? You can clearly see the intermittent action there in the one picture but it is totally absent in the other; no it was not sanded. You can also see the path of lateral deflection into the end grain which really defines the oscillation pattern. I could also post pictures of fairly uniform 1 1/2" long chip sections that seem quite connected to the same length of cutting dips into the wood. Not in all wood do the chip peels hang together for the whole length of the individual dips: In noodling there is likely a different cutting action forced by the full length long grain shavings. No question they hold together that way but noodling is a whole nother way of cutting.


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## Tzed250 (Nov 7, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> Well… If it sets up a feedback loop which keeps the chain in oscillation. Bouncing back between the rail and the wood. Then it should be easy to tape. Just put the chainsaw onto a piece of wood with the power head four or five inches from the piece being cut. With the returning teeth in view. You should be able to see the chain waves being carried out of the cut channel.
> 
> 
> The other question with mechanical oscillations is….. What is the parameters needed to maintain it. Will the chain only oscillate like that in long cut channels. Or will it also do that in short ones. Will compression force (downward force) dampen the oscillation.
> ...



Let me make it easy on you...I have seen the oscillation. The video I have is called "Cutting, Kickback, and Combustion". I was produced by Stihl Inc. in the late '80s. The video of the cutting _clearly_ shows the cutters intermittent action. The cutter has to cut in this way. The chips must break so they can fit into the gullet. If they did not break they would pack the gullet, then wedge the cutter away from the wood. The depth guage regulates the depth of cut by controlling the angle of attack as the cutter enters the wood. As soon as the cutter is to full depth on the rock-back, the depth guage helps to steer the cutter back out of the fiber. 

It is all in the video. Sorry that I have not had it converted to digital yet. Art Martin asked me to post it years ago. Maybe this winter I can get it done.


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## N9WOS (Nov 7, 2008)

Crofter said:


> Did you not open my attachments? You can clearly see the intermittent action there in the one picture but it is totally absent in the other; no it was not sanded. You can also see the path of lateral deflection into the end grain which really defines the oscillation pattern. I could also post pictures of fairly uniform 1 1/2" long chip sections that seem quite connected to the same length of cutting dips into the wood. Not in all wood do the chip peels hang together for the whole length of the individual dips: In noodling there is likely a different cutting action forced by the full length long grain shavings. No question they hold together that way but noodling is a whole nother way of cutting.



Yes, I seen your pictures but I thought you were getting at something else.

If the cut on the left hand side of the “detail” picture is what a chain cut is suppose to look like, then I am stumped (no pun intended).

That is what I try to avoid.
I go for the piece in the right hand side of the picture.

The oscillating pattern I was thinking about would be way smaller than what you have on the left of the pic.

I thought that what you were trying to show with those pictures was what abnormal tooth bouncing (sharpened to produce an oscillating pattern) would produce. (the left picture)

The only time my chainsaws produced the left hand cut is when the thing starts vibrating so bad that it starts shaking the chainsaw apart. When ever I have felt the chainsaw go into a vibration, it would leave that pattern. The first thing I would do is pull it out and take it to the truck to find out what is wrong. 

I see what you were getting at with your post now.

I guess none of my chains work like they say they should. (I don't think i want them to, if that is what it entails  )

Hmm…… more to think about.

....edit.......
When I am using a chainsaw that has no vibration isolation, and it starts making that pattern on the left, then there is a low frequency hummm that I feel through the handles.


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## StihltheOne (Nov 7, 2008)

Guys.. I gave up on the beer about a dozen posts ago and went to the "crown" method of right brain fluid. I better go to bed and let muy brain grow back after reading this!!! 
Very, very good thread.... I think


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## parrisw (Nov 8, 2008)

Didn't know you needed a degree in chain sharpening to get a chain to cut??? WTF Couldn't even get through the first post.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 8, 2008)

mountainlake said:


> I think he's trying to say keep the rakers at the proper hieght. Steve



What rakers I file mine off


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## cmetalbend (Nov 8, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> I will have to look into this more.



Awe chit now you guys did it.


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## APyontek (Nov 8, 2008)

Wow, so i dont know a whole lot about the physics that the chain actually goes through during the cutting process, but i think there was some good information added towards the end. however im still on my journey to figure out the best way to sharpen for crosscutting hardwood quickly when finish doesnt matter.


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## Crofter (Nov 8, 2008)

Square ground / filed chain severs the end grain fiber with a lot less fuzzing it up so you can see the path of the tooth more clearly outlined on the exposed ends. The main light source was low level and to the left to accentuate the surface with shadow. That was not a rough cutting chain. The smoother one was done with much less raker clearance and the sides of the cutter stoned. There I felt that the bobbing of the teeth was non existent and they remained pressed against the bar. It did not load the saw enough to cut fast but would be on a small saw with over sized sprocket. That makes a narrow kerf and removes less wood but would be useless to work with as you need a good margin to keep from pinching the bar or getting bound in big wood.

The picture below would be of a similar tooth. It is cut back to the rear rivet but the raker full height to give a clearance of 15 thou or so. Not enough bite or drag to make the tooth rock back or allow it to bobble as a normal work chain does.
The second picture compares kerf of a standard new 3/8 chain to what it can be reduced to. In this case just a little too much of a good thing as that chain was to easy to bind but it sure would melt wood. That was another experiment.
All things that defeat the normal design of a chains cutting action but can be put to use for special effects like racing. Not unheard of for a good race chain to cut in half the time of a standard chain.


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## N9WOS (Nov 8, 2008)

Usually I go for a tooth that is sharpened with a lot more top plate angle than the Mfr recommendations. Closer to 40 to 45 degrees. And I like hook, I really like the hook. To get the hook, I try to get a good undercut. When I do that, the chain seams to settle down and cut smooth.

They spec 85 degrees for the side plate angle on type 91 chain and 60 degrees on type 72. I probably go for closer to 45. Get a good chisel edge and it rakes the wood out instead of gouging it out.

New chains seem to always vibrate more. After a few sharpenings, it settles down.

When the side plate and top plate angles get to flat to the direction of travel, then the chain starts vibrating and gets jumpy.


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## GASoline71 (Nov 8, 2008)

Overengineering at it's finest...  

Gary


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## Crofter (Nov 8, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> Usually I go for a tooth that is sharpened with a lot more top plate angle than the Mfr recommendations. Closer to 40 to 45 degrees. And I like hook, I really like the hook. To get the hook, I try to get a good undercut. When I do that, the chain seams to settle down and cut smooth.
> 
> .



I imagine when you hit any dirt with a chain like you describe, you get a lot of filing practice in the process of removing the damage it takes to its long thin point.


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## N9WOS (Nov 8, 2008)

Yes, I get a lot of filing practice, and I don’t like the dirt. You got me pegged.
:monkey: 
usually it will hold a good top for a day cutting. But I always touch up the chains before a day of cutting.


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## Husky137 (Nov 8, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> Overengineering at it's finest...
> 
> Gary



Yup. It's a good thing though, because I'm sure that none of the chain manufacturers bothered to do any scintific studies and testing to determine the ideal angles for a properly cutting chain.:hmm3grin2orange:


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## B_Turner (Nov 8, 2008)

If I want to look at a cutter that makes great looking shavings,chips, etc. I simply have to look at one of the cutters on one of my chains hot off my ProSharp.

Bottomline of efficient wood removal is sharpness and minimizing fibers severed per unit wood.

As one who makes wood shavings many hours a week, I believe the abovementioned cutters are a near practical limit in cutting efficiency for a sawchain.

As long as you are using a round file or wheel all the dolphins in the world won't swim near well enough to make up that difference in cutting ability. Relatively blunt side cutter and inefficient shape to cut wood.


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## Crofter (Nov 8, 2008)

No doubt that if you go too far outside the normal tooth configuration you can start to see effects in isolation that usually are combined. That said, it appears that you have come to the conclusion that the chain cutters do not normally porpoise. That *could *be legitimate but it fles in the face of what others have observed. I suggest that some of your conclusions might be circumstantial and you have the cause and effect not entirely meshing. You have to be carefull with evidence that way. Also it is not the best idea perhaps, to state a hypothesis with too much authority until you cross check the conclusions many ways.
Not trying to discourage you from examining the nature of how things work; I have devoted more than a fair share of time to that myself. Just remember that without having total context,that it is easy to watch trees in a breeze and come to the conclusion that it is the waving of their branches that causes the wind to blow.


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## N9WOS (Nov 8, 2008)

Crofter said:


> No doubt that if you go too far outside the normal tooth configuration you can start to see effects in isolation that usually are combined. That said, it appears that you have come to the conclusion that the chain cutters do not normally porpoise. That *could *be legitimate but it fles in the face of what others have observed. I suggest that some of your conclusions might be circumstantial and you have the cause and effect not entirely meshing. You have to be carefull with evidence that way. Also it is not the best idea perhaps, to state a hypothesis with too much authority until you cross check the conclusions many ways.
> Not trying to discourage you from examining the nature of how things work; I have devoted more than a fair share of time to that myself. Just remember that without having total context,that it is easy to watch trees in a breeze and come to the conclusion that it is the waving of their branches that causes the wind to blow.



And how many car batteries have you ran down by leaving them sit on concrete?

The point is, sometimes I trust conventional wisdom as far as I can throw it. When setting a car battery on the floor, I have had more than the occasional person tell me that it will run it down if I leave it there. And some highly educated people too.

I am still far from sold on the jumping tooth idea. The physics just isn’t there.

Now rock back of the tooth makes sense, but actual liftoff doesn’t.

The only way for it to happen is for there is space for the rake to lift up, then there has to be a non continuous cut to give the tooth space for the angular momentum to launch it and come back down.

If there is no clearance for the rake to lift up on impact with the wood, and no clearance space after impact to come back down after impact and liftoff, then the cutter will remain fully engaged through the length of the cut. It may oscillate after impact and commencement of cutting, but it won’t disengage as long as there is wood in it’s clearance space.

The back end of the link may come off the bar for a split second after impact because of angular velocities, but the cutting force applied to it will quickly push it’s back end back down to the bar as the cut commences. That is with taking into account the need for clearance for it’s front end to start lifting off. If it enters the cut with zero clearance between the wood and the rake then the front won’t lift to allow it to jump in the first place.

Considering that 91 chain has a height from cut edge to pivot point of link of about. 0.3 and a length from rake to back of about 0.5

That gives a mechanical ratio of about 3/5. As long as you apply a down force equal to 3/5 of the chain pull force then the cutters will not lift. If they don’t lift then they can’t jump.

With a maximum mechanical advantage of 3/5 the pull from the engine has no way to lift the bar off the work piece when you are applying more than that amount of force downward. No amount of bouncing back and forth will amplify energy. Law of conservation of momentum comes to mind. The only energy there to lift up the bar is what the motor puts into the chain. If the motor can’t lift the bar of the wood, then the links have no space to bounce.

And as for as deep patterns in the side and clearance of the bar, I was going on the actual drive dogs and the channel size. But the teeth are above that, so it give them more room to move. Actual measured top end (tooth area) play on a new bar an chain is over 50 thousandths which is consistent with even the deepest groves in the wood face. So the chain doesn’t have to come out of the bar even to make the deepest ones I have seen

Considering the normal down force used for normal cutting, the idea of a bounce space is not something I am inclined to believe in.

Just because someone captured an image of a chain doing something under abnormal conditions (very light down force with a bouncing chain) don’t mean that it is how the chain works under normal use.

Just because someone left a battery on concrete and it died, doesn’t mean that the concrete caused the battery to die.

The more I look at the way the teeth cut, the more I am getting the idea that bouncing/jumping teeth are just a wise tale that has been accepted as fact. 


:sword:


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## reachtreeservi (Nov 8, 2008)

nilzlofgren said:


> I thought the first rule of chain sharpening, was that you don't talk about chain sharpening.



LOL.....


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## 056 kid (Nov 8, 2008)

Whack thread..


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## Crofter (Nov 8, 2008)

Your statements and method of experimenting seems to be a bit short on objectivity! You are attempting to find everything pointing *against an intermittent cutting action or porpoising of the cutters.*

I agree that it does *not have to exist as the only means* of having a chain cut wood. I know how I can make a chain cut in that mode but it is not anywhere representative of normal chain. 
The first few teeth to contact the wood do not have to rear back to cut! Mark that down! They can each cut the thickness allowed by the raker clearance and in a fraction of a second will have created all kinds of space for the following teeth to start to porpoise between bar and wood. In fact if chain speed is high enough the centrifugal force will be pulling the chain outward with enough force that the chain need not even touch the belly of the bar. Another poster here, timberwolf has a high speed, stop motion photo of a chain showing the drive tangs entirely up out of the groove, and that on a 16 inch bar. There is all the space and more needed to allow for what you insinuate is not possible. Mark that down also!

Now on to your analogy about batteries cement floors and folk lore! That is a perfect parallell to the tree branches and wind! A lead acid battery has a self discharge rate from internal local activity that will cause it to go dead over a period of time whether it is connected to anything or not. It does not discharge through its case so it does not matter whether it sits on a floor, a piece of rubber mat or whatever. Down on a cool floor at a lower temperature will slow the self discharge somewhat compared to a higher room temperature. If a battery sits for any length of time with less than full charge, sulphation of the plates sets in which is practically a permanent limitation of its ability to take a subsequent charge; Perfect example of mis-attributing cause and effect. 

To suggest that there is as loose a connection with fact, regarding the cutting action of a chainsaw chain, is a bit of a stretch! Because *some *people obviously did not understand the lead acid battery does not in itself lend any weight to the argument that the accepted action of a chain saw chain is therefore likely to be incorrect.


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## Nailgunner (Nov 8, 2008)

keep it sharp, keep the angles right, keep it sharp, gauge the rakers now and then and keep them the right height, keep it sharp, Plenty of oil, keep it sharp, Avoid rocks and thereby keep it sharp; Done! No point wearing out the ends of your fingers beyond that. Any questions?


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## StihltheOne (Nov 8, 2008)

:agree2:


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## N9WOS (Nov 8, 2008)

> They can each cut the thickness allowed by the raker clearance and in a fraction of a second will have created all kinds of space for the following teeth to start to porpoise between bar and wood.



Once there is space and the teeth are no longer in continuous contact, then where is the down force that you are applying to the bar dissipated? The down force wants to close the gap. The only thing that holds it open is the force on the rakes. Once space is cleared, there is nothing to hold back the down force, so the bar drops to close the space.



> In fact if chain speed is high enough the centrifugal force will be pulling the chain outward with enough force that the chain need not even touch the belly of the bar.



The force is experienced where the chain goes around the sprockets. It does not pull outward on the spans of chain in between. They are going in a straight line. When the chain tries to pull out at the ends, it increases the tension on the chain in-between. The chain going around the sprocket on the end is exactly balanced out by the pull from the chain going around the sprocket at the engine. 




> Another poster here, timberwolf has a high speed, stop motion photo of a chain showing the drive tangs entirely up out of the groove, and that on a 16 inch bar.



That is a good indication that the chain needs tightened :greenchainsaw:


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## parrisw (Nov 9, 2008)

Here is my theroy. 

Make the dam chain sharp with the right raker clearance and go cut some DAM WOOD!!!!

They guys I cut with are usually in awe in how my saws always cut really fast. I just know how to sharpen a chain better then they do. At the end of the day, they are always handing me their chains to sharpen up. I guess sometimes it helps that I'm running a saw with 30-40 more cc though, ha ha ha ha ha. 

My test is, if its throwing big chips, I did a good job getting it sharp.


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## litefoot (Nov 9, 2008)

What's the porpoise of this thread? And is porpoise a verb?


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## Justsaws (Nov 9, 2008)

It is interesting that all of the chain manufactures have conspired to mislead poor working folks into believing that the product they sell and have sold for decades does not function the way it was designed to function and that their recommended techniques for maintenance are wrong and ineffective.

Do you use a breaker bar on your nuts?

Do your oils and fuels have to be special in order for your saw to function?

Have you ever found yourself asking,"If you could only be a genius then the chains might cut wood?".

Oregon Vanguard?


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## pgg (Nov 9, 2008)

Well, there's still a bit more to this equation, if you're cutting with the top-side of the bar, the chain cuts smoother and cleaner than it does when you're using the bottom-side of the bar. You'll notice it when cutting through branches, use the bottom-side of the bar and the edge of the cut will be rough and 'feathered'. Use the top-side of the bar and the chain leaves a clean smooth non-feathered edge, centrifugal force is affecting the chain and the way it cuts too


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## Justsaws (Nov 9, 2008)

The O.P.s technique is not new or different, it is how the typical chainsaw owner sharpens a chain. He just took the time to rationalize it, for that, I thank you. Do you at least use the correct size file or are you one of those smaller files makes for sharper longer lasting chains people? 

Batteries, aquatic mammals, and typical redefined as different, just another day in chainsaw heaven.

Someone needs to blame the Chinese or at least George Bush, mention the 361's ability to never go dull, and ask about modding the muffler so the chain stays sharp longer and this thread will have it all.

I already asked about his nuts, fuels, and oils. Those are covered.


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## MCW (Nov 9, 2008)

I like to get down to the nitty gritty on how things work too, however quantum molecular pythagoran micro physics generally doesn't apply to sharpening chains.....or so I thought.....
Maybe you'd better put the chainsaw sharpening theory to the side for a moment and approach NASA for a job?
If you sharpen a chain and you're happy with the way it cuts, then that's all that matters, no matter how bad it is


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## John Henry (Nov 9, 2008)

Mr. Obvious said:


> This guy is clearly identified as someone who has never had a date.
> 
> By the way your statement
> 
> QUOTE]The cutting speed of all teeth is controlled by the tooth that cuts the slowest that is in the cutting channel.



seems to be a little off since all cutters are moving at the same speed since they are all attached together. One tooth can't cut slower than the next.

As in all scientific theory, if one of the fundamental assumptions is wrong, the remaining jibberish is to be discarded.[/QUOTE]

He's talking about cutting speed perpendicular to the chain (i.e. depth speed).

I am not about to get into any theories of chain cutting, since I simply don't know a lot about it, but wanted to comment that you all seem a little hard on this guy. And you are doing it without making any objective statements that either agree with or contradict the things he's saying. If there's gibberish in what he's saying, tell us where it is and why it is.

I'm interested in learning about this topic, so was hoping that some of the experts on this stuff come out with some comments one way or the other.


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## Tzed250 (Nov 9, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> And how many car batteries have you ran down by leaving them sit on concrete?
> 
> The point is, sometimes I trust conventional wisdom as far as I can throw it. When setting a car battery on the floor, I have had more than the occasional person tell me that it will run it down if I leave it there. And some highly educated people too.
> 
> ...




Interesting.

I'll tell you what isn't a _wise_ tale.

Victory.

Since you seem to have made some kind of quatum leap in the understanding of wood cutting, it is time for *proof* that your theories are correct. 

You believe that you have a much better understanding of the mechanics and function of a saw chain, it should be easy for you to file a chain that will cut measurably faster than any other. 

Bring a 60 or 72DL chain to a GTG and run it against another chain, on the same saw, in the same wood. If your chain is faster then you might be on to something.

If your chain is not faster then it doesnt matter what you think about how a chain works because all you know how to do is file a slow chain. 

*Hypothesis-experiment-proof*

Are you a Scientist, or a Mad Scientist?




.


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## MCW (Nov 9, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> The more I look at the way the teeth cut, the more I am getting the idea that bouncing/jumping teeth are just a wise tale that has been accepted as fact.
> :sword:



You must have better eyes than mine 

As Tzed250 said, PROVE IT. There are a lot smarter people than you involved in chain development, testing, and design. Thats not me being negative mate but no matter how smart you think you are, there will always be someone smarter - and they probably work at Carlton, Stihl, Oregon etc etc.


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## Tzed250 (Nov 9, 2008)

.


You guys are gonna *make* me get that video on here aren't you...


.


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## Crofter (Nov 9, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> The force is experienced where the chain goes around the sprockets. It does not pull outward on the spans of chain in between. They are going in a straight line. When the chain tries to pull out at the ends, it increases the tension on the chain in-between. The chain going around the sprocket on the end is exactly balanced out by the pull from the chain going around the sprocket at the engine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that statement is a good indication that you are either *trolling *or your powers of observation are such that you are going nowhere with this.

John Henry, your sympathies are rather easily aroused; perhaps your bladder is close to your eyes!


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## ray benson (Nov 9, 2008)

NW9OS.....(Art Martin: Will the real logger please stand up) - thread is a good read. Here is one of the insightful posts by Art.

Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut. Most people don’t think much about the process, they just hold the saw and eventually the log is severed by this mean, dangerous and fast turning tool attached to a loud, noisy engine.
Most people are also surprised to learn that a tooth must actually leave the guide bar groove to cut wood efficiently. The chain cuts by a “porpoising” action. It resembles a porpoise swimming in the ocean. The leading edge of the tooth starts the “bite” causing the tooth to rock back as far as the depth gauge will allow it. The tooth is now in the cutting position. The cutter now leaves the groove of the bar and goes into the wood. The tension of the chain now increases and the power of the engine pulls the chain back out of the wood and the severed chip exits from the underside of the cutter (chip channel). The tooth now returns to its original position and the process is repeated over and over by the teeth on the chain.
The depth gauges are often referred to as “rakers”. The actual function of the depth gauge is to determine how far the tooth will rock back and how big of a bite it will take. In real softwood, the depth gauge will sometimes sink into the wood itself and cause the saw to bog down. On real softwood it may be better to run the chain with higher depth gauges. The “clearance angle” of the cutter is the reason why a tooth is able to rock back and take its bite. The clearance angle is the downward slope of the tooth as it goes from front to rear. The rear of the tooth is lower than the front. Without a clearance angle, the cutter would not be able to rock out the wood.


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## Crofter (Nov 9, 2008)

Crofter said:


> Well that statement is a good indication that you are either *trolling *or your powers of observation are such that you are going nowhere with this.
> 
> John Henry, your sympathies are rather easily aroused; perhaps your bladder is close to your eyes!



I think we are being trolled maybe by two people. I see lots of countering info being posted not just bashing!


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## RiverRat2 (Nov 9, 2008)

John Henry said:


> seems to be a little off since all cutters are moving at the same speed since they are all attached together. One tooth can't cut slower than the next.
> 
> As in all scientific theory, if one of the fundamental assumptions is wrong, the remaining jibberish is to be discarded
> He's talking about cutting speed perpendicular to the chain (i.e. depth speed).
> ...




Hold on there bud!!!!


Read this,,,, (Post # 87) from the thread I was talking about,,,, I am by no means and expert,,,, but Arts words make more sense to me,,,,








ray benson said:


> NW9OS.....(Art Martin: Will the real logger please stand up) - thread is a good read. Here is one of the insightful posts by Art.
> 
> Since there are so many new members joining the Arboristsite, now would be a good time to discuss how a chain cuts. With some paraphrasing and excerpts from articles that I have read and were authored by chain saw manufactures, I will try to explain what happens when you start your saw and begin to make a cut. Most people don’t think much about the process, they just hold the saw and eventually the log is severed by this mean, dangerous and fast turning tool attached to a loud, noisy engine.
> Most people are also surprised to learn that a tooth must actually leave the guide bar groove to cut wood efficiently. The chain cuts by a “porpoising” action. It resembles a porpoise swimming in the ocean. The leading edge of the tooth starts the “bite” causing the tooth to rock back as far as the depth gauge will allow it. The tooth is now in the cutting position. The cutter now leaves the groove of the bar and goes into the wood. The tension of the chain now increases and the power of the engine pulls the chain back out of the wood and the severed chip exits from the underside of the cutter (chip channel). The tooth now returns to its original position and the process is repeated over and over by the teeth on the chain.
> The depth gauges are often referred to as “rakers”. The actual function of the depth gauge is to determine how far the tooth will rock back and how big of a bite it will take. In real softwood, the depth gauge will sometimes sink into the wood itself and cause the saw to bog down. On real softwood it may be better to run the chain with higher depth gauges. The “clearance angle” of the cutter is the reason why a tooth is able to rock back and take its bite. The clearance angle is the downward slope of the tooth as it goes from front to rear. The rear of the tooth is lower than the front. Without a clearance angle, the cutter would not be able to rock out the wood.


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## N9WOS (Nov 9, 2008)

If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
I won’t be coming back.


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## Crofter (Nov 9, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
> I won’t be coming back.



You lost it when you talked about wanting a 45 deg or more top plate and lots of hook and then mentioned you could cut a whole day without sharpening. Insisting that the chain does not come away from the bar when the saw is revved up raised another red flag for me.

You have put a lot of though into your argument whether it is a concoction or not I cant be sure. Your insistence on having your opinion accepted as fact is a bit optimistic, especially when it flys in the face of the established understanding:you are going to have to have more patient and persevering than this if you are going to be a man of science!

Does anyone remember "Beginner"?


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## scotclayshooter (Nov 9, 2008)

Pics would help.
But Im with Crofter on the angles and the chain staying sharp all day.


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## parrisw (Nov 9, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
> I won’t be coming back.



Take it easy. Just think what your saying. Your a new guy here. You come here with a really long winded post about a bunch of stuff I couldn't even get through. You lost my interest in the first few sentences. You can't expect everybody's respect with a post like that especially being new around here. Allot of these guys really know their stuff. Just don't expect everybody to believe you when going on and on like this.


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## ropensaddle (Nov 9, 2008)

Ok I know how to sharpen a chain to better than new condition
so don't need help there. I could use help for it staying sharp
but prolly would only get smartazzed replies


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## belgian (Nov 10, 2008)

Crofter said:


> You lost it when you talked about wanting a 45 deg or more top plate and lots of hook and then mentioned you could cut a whole day without sharpening. Insisting that the chain does not come away from the bar when the saw is revved up raised another red flag for me.
> 
> You have put a lot of though into your argument whether it is a concoction or not I cant be sure. Your insistence on having your opinion accepted as fact is a bit optimistic, especially when it flys in the face of the established understanding:you are going to have to have more patient and persevering than this if you are going to be a man of science!
> 
> Does anyone remember "Beginner"?



:agree2: :agree2:


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## windthrown (Nov 10, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> Gary



Damn, you got that one right. JHC....    

I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story. 

Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.


----------



## MCW (Nov 10, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Damn, you got that one right. JHC....
> 
> I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story.
> 
> Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.



You fool, those specs won't work on the MS361, they're for the MS441! Lucky you didn't kill yourself. Damn amateurs...


----------



## reachtreeservi (Nov 10, 2008)

N9WOS said:


> If everyone thinks my honest opinion is trolling, then good by.
> I won’t be coming back.



See ya.


It's been fun.


----------



## bigjake (Nov 10, 2008)

I sharpen both sides so you can flip it over when its dull ??They dont want us
knowing this plus when im drunk if i put the chain on backwards it dont matter.
I also send my wood chips to the lab every hour or so to have them analyzed.
now lets gitter done and go cut  

and syne wave is spelled with a why ? dam this gets confusing.LOL


----------



## scotclayshooter (Nov 10, 2008)

Might find some one with it if we pester them enough lol

Or we pester Tzerd


----------



## Stihl 041S (Nov 10, 2008)

This is like the movie"Titanic". After it starts you don't just want it to end, you want it to end now.


----------



## Tzed250 (Nov 10, 2008)

scotclayshooter said:


> Might find some one with it if we pester them enough lol
> 
> Or we pester Tzerd



Cripes a mighty!!!


I guess I'm gonna have to find that film....


----------



## Nailgunner (Nov 10, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Of course ... a hot babe ... beer ...



Excellent idea


----------



## scotclayshooter (Nov 10, 2008)

Tzed250 said:


> Cripes a mighty!!!
> 
> 
> I guess I'm gonna have to find that film....



OOps dyslexik keyboard strikes again sorry Tzed


----------



## logbutcher (Nov 10, 2008)

Gee, I don't understand a GD thing. The little grey matter seems to have left the container. Why oh why are we not worthy ?  
The "beer and babe" I get  , but this sharpening treatise .......  

PS Msr. Moderator: how does one go about getting those little red things ?


----------



## ropensaddle (Nov 10, 2008)

windthrown said:


> Damn, you got that one right. JHC....
> 
> I am lost on this thread. I learned to sharpen chains when I was about 10. My dad gave me the Homelite and a clamp-on-bar file guide and some files with a simple illustrations in a book, and he said, "Go to it." I sharpen at 30 deg. with 0 offset, and set the rakers with a depth gauge. End of story.
> 
> Of course if I dropped the rakers with a reverse end around bevel of 28.6 degrees with a 12.435 percent offset, and used high chromium carbon files and a burnisher to polish the edges with, and used depleted uranium alloy tipped chains that you can only get from a US military contractor, then I would get a chain float of 12 microns above the bar. That would allow for better cooling and displacement of the chain in the bar, and better torque angle for more power from the sprocket. Also if we consider the sine wave of the amplitude harmonic oscillations in the chain as it travels along the bar, and where it meets the wood, we would determine that there is more optimum cutting when the chain is moving faster, and thus would use a slightly higher number sprocket when cutting. We would also be inclined to use a larger saw with a larger bar and chain, becasue this would allow the saw to drive a chain at a higher velocity which would gain inertia and thus be better for cutting with. This of course would be the Stihl model MS361 chainsaw, as being the perfect chainsaw to do the job. Using that particular saw, it has been determined that the optimum use of chain would be found when sharpened at 33.567 degrees and a 7.896 offset from zero. The rakers should also be set 12.2 microns lower than specified by the manufacturer, as this will allow for better tooth travel when engaged in celulose. The rakers should also be angled at a 12.3 degree back slope as to engage the celulose at the optimum velocity and cutting angle for more precision cutting. Also to achieve the maximum pleasure using your chainsaw cutting in wood, you should daydream about a hot babe that you will meet for a beer when you are done cutting. That hot babe should be exactly 5'-4" tall, and have a height to weight proportion of not more than 142 pounds. If that is acheived, you will find that the performance of your saw will improve dramatically, and that your perceived cutting time will be cut in half.



Yeah I grind mine 25 to 30 degrees with a 60 degree tilt on my sharpener.
I used to just round file them and threw the guide in the trash after 5 to
10 years it was not needed,


----------



## windthrown (Nov 10, 2008)

MCW said:


> You fool, those specs won't work on the MS361, they're for the MS441! Lucky you didn't kill yourself. Damn amateurs...



Oh shi......


----------



## motosierra (Nov 10, 2008)

I still round file them....one or two swipes and she is off and cutting like new again.....whole chain takes about 2 minutes


----------



## windthrown (Nov 10, 2008)

Sierraazul said:


> I still round file them....one or two swipes and she is off and cutting like new again.....whole chain takes about 2 minutes



But that is about as easy as having sex!!!! :smoking:


----------



## drmiller100 (Nov 10, 2008)

N9, don't worry about the monkeys. 

they are all busy picking lice off each other, and don't understand when someone is trying to rationalize and explain physical phenomena. Newton, Einstein, Bernoulli et al all had similar issues.

I'm sure I'm not alone in having read your posts, and wanted to ponder upon them, and add them to our paradigm of how things work.

I will suggest strongly the chain does indeed dolphin along. If you think about it awhile, it doesn't really change anything. The chain leaves the bar, cuts.

It does cut much like you suggest. And your thoughts about a short cutter are something I had not considered.

If I understand one of your points, a worn out cutter needs a shorter raker???

This actually follows my experience with my processor. I did not appreciate the magnitude of the difference between worn cutter/new cutter until I saw your diagram. I'm still assimilating this article.

One thing you didnt' post. As you shorten the cutter, the kerf gets narrower.

The narrower the kerf, the less mass the chain has to carry out. Is the mass of the wood significant? I don't know.

Like someone else posted, I think a significant amount of work done by the chain occurs when it cuts the wood fibers. And, it cuts the wood fibers with the SIDE of the cutter.

Your comments about the vertical cutting of the teeth are a different way for me to think about things, but they sure make sense.

Like I said, when the monkeys squeak, some of the smarter folks are pondering.

Thank you,
Doug


----------



## windthrown (Nov 11, 2008)

:monkey: speaks? 

Spank the :monkey: 

Does the :monkey: get hurt? :monkey: 

:monkey: Give us your wisdom, oh great smart one. :monkey: 

I mean, I are just an unemployed engineer with an IQ of 140... 

Beer and babes are easier to understand. 
Well, at least beer is. I never understood women.

-The head :monkey:


----------



## Burvol (Nov 11, 2008)

Damn, I just read that guy's crap this morning with coffee before I leave...what an amazing load of #### to read @ 4:00 AM. He's the "smart" guy that can't figure out how to buck a log that is wound up or start a cut...


----------



## GASoline71 (Nov 11, 2008)

drmiller100 said:


> N9, don't worry about the monkeys.
> 
> they are all busy picking lice off each other, and don't understand when someone is trying to rationalize and explain physical phenomena. Newton, Einstein, Bernoulli et al all had similar issues.
> 
> I'm sure I'm not alone in having read your posts, and wanted to ponder upon them, and add them to our paradigm of how things work.



You sure you're on the right forum? We're talkin' about farkin' saw chain... not quantum physics... (hell I prolly even spelled quantum wrong)

Whatever mang... 

Gary


----------



## taplinhill (Nov 11, 2008)

GASoline71 said:


> You sure you're on the right forum? We're talkin' about farkin' saw chain... not quantum physics... (hell I prolly even spelled quantum wrong)
> 
> Whatever mang...
> 
> Gary



And what the heck is "paradigm"???????
 


__________________


----------



## GASoline71 (Nov 11, 2008)

That's where 2 guys go dig a hole I think...

Gary


----------



## GASoline71 (Nov 11, 2008)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

  

I need a mop to soak up all the coffee on my desk and computer!



Gary


----------



## parrisw (Nov 11, 2008)

ha ha ha ha ha, you guys kill me. Good thing my coffee is still brewing!!


----------



## madmax (Nov 11, 2008)

I've been reading threads on this site for about three yrs. now, and I've really learned a lot from you guys, However, after wasting close to a twelve pack of beer reading and trying to comprehend the first post to this thread I feel dumber than ever, (and was purty dam dum to start with)


----------



## pgg (Nov 12, 2008)

Pushing on the bar hard, the chain doesn't seem to be porpoising when I cut logs and branches and stuff, hard flat on the rails seems to me, teeth all cutting dead flat as in a picture, you wouldn't need a movie, porpoising is just a fancy word for wavy undulations, it's all just loose chains caused by too long bars :chatter:


----------



## Crofter (Nov 12, 2008)

pgg said:


> Pushing on the bar hard, the chain doesn't seem to be porpoising when I cut logs and branches and stuff, hard flat on the rails seems to me, teeth all cutting dead flat as in a picture, you wouldn't need a movie, porpoising is just a fancy word for wavy undulations, it's all just loose chains caused by too long bars :chatter:



Maybe we should brainstorm the construction of a saw with a retractable bar so you just stick out what you need commensurate with the size of wood at hand. That would prevent all that excess chain from flapping around in the breeze. You would be able to keep the chain pressed tight between wood and bar. Of course in the process you would necessitate the perfect length regulation of the cutters or have to resort to the method recommended by the original poster of a complicated process of tailor making the raker length of the preceeding teeth to control the cut of the following tooth!

Yup, I am going to get right on it!

I found it interesting to try to see if there was due process to his thinking or just baffle gab. If he applied it to fixed cutters on a rigid circular or flat saw I think his theory had a lot of validity, however he makes a *firm assumption *that a chainsaw chain only has straight lineal motion and any porpoising is thought a flaw. It makes any attempted explanation very complicated to say the least. You have to get very creative if their is error in the basic concept.


----------



## M.R. (Nov 12, 2008)

Crofter said:


> Maybe we should brainstorm the construction of a saw with a retractable bar so you just stick out what you need commensurate with the size of wood at hand. That would prevent all that excess chain from flapping around in the breeze. You would be able to keep the chain pressed tight between wood and bar. Of course in the process you would necessitate the perfect length regulation of the cutters or have to resort to the method recommended by the original poster of a complicated process of tailor making the raker length of the preceeding teeth to control the cut of the following tooth!
> 
> Yup, I am going to get right on it!



Boy, it would be nice to reel out enough to get the job done and be able to reach places from one spot , sorta like the extendable pole saws. The size, weight, and mass of this - the way I view it wouldn't have any advanages over the short-comings of using a longer bar.


----------



## GASoline71 (Nov 12, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Great pdf!
> 
> Thanks.



No kiddin'!

I had never seen it before...

Another thanks... 

Gary


----------



## reachtreeservi (Nov 12, 2008)

Add my thanks to the list.


----------



## scotclayshooter (Nov 12, 2008)

reachtreeservi said:


> Add my thanks to the list.



+1


----------



## Tzed250 (Nov 12, 2008)

It has been in the reference links sticky since Sept. of '06....


----------



## windthrown (Nov 12, 2008)

Hey, what the heck is all this easy to read and understand stuff? I thought that this thread was about the overly complex physics and dynamics of saw chain travel that requires deep transcendental thought and meditation about dolphin motion and harmonic oscillation? :greenchainsaw: 

Good post. 



Mark 42 said:


> Print this .PDF and take the time to read it carefully and thoroughly.
> http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf
> 
> It has taught me a lot more than anything else in this message thread.


----------



## parrisw (Nov 12, 2008)

Where's the OP??


----------



## parrisw (Nov 12, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I believe he pulled out when a few here questioned his interpretations of his observations.
> 
> Great thread though!



ha ha, ya I figured that happened. 

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Dennis_Peacock (Nov 12, 2008)

Excellent thread....once my head stopped hurting over all the various translations.

I sure wish N9 hadn't of left.


----------



## Metals406 (Nov 12, 2008)

Mark 42 said:


> The teeth rock no matter how tight the chain is.
> If you push hard enough or tighten the chain enough to stop
> the teeth from rocking you will damage the bar and chain.
> 
> ...



Holy crap!! I had the same idea about writing Time Warp!! I was just telling the wife about it about an hour ago (like she cared :greenchainsaw: ). We should have a huge campaign to get them to make slo-mo video of a chainsaw in wood... With different chain to boot.


----------



## MCW (Nov 13, 2008)

Mark 42 said:


> The teeth rock no matter how tight the chain is.
> If you push hard enough or tighten the chain enough to stop
> the teeth from rocking you will damage the bar and chain.
> 
> ...



Well they're obviously wrong  As if a chain can leave the bar - thats CRAZY talk


----------



## Nailgunner (Nov 13, 2008)

polycarbonate needs to be polished to be transparent as such; it wouldn't be polished after chainsawing it! also it's very tough; too tough for a wood cutting chain, which wouldn't work as expected anyway. A third problem is specific to thermoplastics, they tend to melt under high speed cutting, and I'm sure a big cut with a fast chain would get very sticky very fast.

My vote goes with high-speed X-ray photography.


----------



## Metals406 (Nov 13, 2008)

Mark 42 said:


> Here's my post on the Discovery website (Which is where suggestions belong)
> http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2501973079/m/8301993199



I just posted a reply backing you up.


----------



## B_Turner (Nov 13, 2008)

Polycarbonate doesn't have directional internal fibers like wood.

With wood,the fibers have a big effect on the shaving. E.g. engrain dust (miling) vs long noodles vs crosscut where the tooth rocking plays the biggest role.

The shaving and the known struture of wood tell us alot about what the cutters are doing.


----------



## Metals406 (Nov 13, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Makes 3.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 3, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Have you ever seen a slow motion video of how a chain cuts?





777ER said:


> Is there one?
> 
> I'd like to see it.





Crofter said:


> I see some food for thought here. The theory of how a chain actually cuts if you could be view it in 3D slow motion would be a lot different than we usually think of it. I think Z250 posted some video here a number of years back. I like to think of it as a string of cutting kites being pulled one behind the other with each one having some limited individual motion but still influenced by whatever its front and rear partners are doing. I think N9WOS has made some interesting observations that tie in with other things we have read like progressive raker lowering as the chain wears back and leverage and angle of attack change relationships. The chattering in hard wood with too much raker clearance is spot on.
> 
> The normal intermittent or bobbing action of each cutter can be influenced by raker clearance, chain tension, how far back the tooth is worn, amount of hook and sharpening angles, whether upcut or down, and by the amount of pressure applied to the saw. If you use anything within reasonable recommended dimensions and dont get ridiculously extreme in tooth sizes you may never in a life of cutting run into it or have to worry about why.
> 
> ...





Tzed250 said:


> The OP is smart, but making guesses.
> 
> I do have the video that Frank mentioned, but I have never been able to post it here(still VHS).
> 
> ...





Stihl 041S said:


> Tzed250;
> You mean all you got to back up you hair brained ideas is a bunch of facts?????
> 
> 
> ...





ray benson said:


> Hopefully one day that slow-motion video of the chainsaw chain will make it to You Tube.





Tzed250 said:


> Let me make it easy on you...I have seen the oscillation. The video I have is called "Cutting, Kickback, and Combustion". I was produced by Stihl Inc. in the late '80s. The video of the cutting _clearly_ shows the cutters intermittent action. The cutter has to cut in this way. The chips must break so they can fit into the gullet. If they did not break they would pack the gullet, then wedge the cutter away from the wood. The depth guage regulates the depth of cut by controlling the angle of attack as the cutter enters the wood. As soon as the cutter is to full depth on the rock-back, the depth guage helps to steer the cutter back out of the fiber.
> 
> It is all in the video. Sorry that I have not had it converted to digital yet. Art Martin asked me to post it years ago. Maybe this winter I can get it done.





Tzed250 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I'll tell you what isn't a _wise_ tale.
> 
> ...





Tzed250 said:


> .
> 
> 
> You guys are gonna *make* me get that video on here aren't you...
> ...







*Well....the video has been located. Now all I need to do is find an economical way to transfer it to digital.*














.


----------



## tomtrees58 (Jan 3, 2009)

Mr. Obvious said:


> This guy is clearly identified as someone who has never had a date.
> 
> 
> wow tom treesopcorn:


----------



## TheRickster (Jan 3, 2009)

When a chain gets dull I normally just put it on backwards and cut a little to resharpen it:greenchainsaw: 

I figure if running it forward dulls it then running it backwards must sharpen it right?? lol..

There really is a lot of good theory and info here.. I would be interested to actually see a slow motion vid of a cut taking place to really get a sence of what is going on.. Easy to visualize but would be better to see in reality...

Rick


----------



## madmax (Jan 3, 2009)

after the luck I had with my pickup today, I say pull the chain off, sling it back and forth horizontally against the paint on the Dodge, then lay it on the hood of the pickup and throw rocks at both of them.


----------



## scotclayshooter (Jan 4, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *Well....the video has been located. Now all I need to do is find an economical way to transfer it to digital.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:


----------



## scotclayshooter (Jan 4, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *Well....the video has been located. Now all I need to do is find an economical way to transfer it to digital.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you have a paypal account i will chip in £10 $15 towards it.
Someone must have a VHS to DVD recorder. They are on sale here so you guys must have one.


----------



## Biker Dude (Jan 4, 2009)

WOW! My head is swimming with dolphins and I haven't even had a beer yet!
If you wanted to see how a chain cuts couldn't you just set up the saw to cut the width of the cut off of the end of a log, basically shaving the end of the log? The only down side is that one side of cutters would not be in wood so it might not act the same as a normal cut would.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jan 4, 2009)

You just open the package and pull the nice shinny new chain out of its box
and go to cuttin  Ok Thall you owe me big buddy pay up lol


----------



## scotclayshooter (Jan 4, 2009)

Biker Dude said:


> WOW! My head is swimming with dolphins and I haven't even had a beer yet!
> If you wanted to see how a chain cuts couldn't you just set up the saw to cut the width of the cut off of the end of a log, basically shaving the end of the log? The only down side is that one side of cutters would not be in wood so it might not act the same as a normal cut would.



There was a thread a short while ago about how the chain cuts, This vid will solve once and for all that the chain must leave the bar to cut.
Like a porpoise was the description.
I cant remember who started the thread now.
But a searching we will go!

It was this thread lol


----------



## GASoline71 (Jan 4, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> *Well....the video has been located. Now all I need to do is find an economical way to transfer it to digital.*
> 
> .



That is friggin' cool mang!!! 

But please start a new thread so this worthless debacle will die away somewhere... 

Gary


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 4, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> That is friggin' cool mang!!!
> 
> *But please start a new thread so this worthless debacle will die away somewhere... *
> Gary



Trust me...it will get its own place. I just wonder what happened to the Nostradamus of saw chain???


----------



## GASoline71 (Jan 4, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Trust me...it will get its own place. I just wonder what happened to the Nostradamus of saw chain???



The door hit 'im where the good lord split 'im...

Good riddance. Thaere were a couple other self proclaimed "experts" that I am glad to see gone too...  Funny how they got their panties in a wad when someone who could not "see the light" questioned their tactics... 



Gary


----------



## Rickochet (Jan 4, 2009)

10 pages of this thread and what did I get? Well......... I got some more links to carb rebuilding, muffler mods and the free saw link was tremendous!!!! 
Thanks to all who posted to make this lengthy quandary a worth while endeavor! :deadhorse: :deadhorse:


----------



## bortle (Jan 4, 2009)

I can't believe I read all ten pages. Thanks for the Carlton link. Very informative. Some of that other stuff is way too technical for me.


----------



## Tzed250 (Jan 4, 2009)

Rickochet said:


> 10 pages of this thread and what did I get? Well......... I got some more links to carb rebuilding, muffler mods and the free saw link was tremendous!!!!
> Thanks to all who posted to make this lengthy quandary a worth while endeavor! :deadhorse: :deadhorse:




Typical of AS...


----------



## songofthewood (Feb 21, 2009)

bortle said:


> I can't believe I read all ten pages. Thanks for the Carlton link. Very informative. Some of that other stuff is way too technical for me.



Me too.Live and learn. :deadhorse:


----------



## windthrown (Feb 21, 2009)

Biker Dude said:


> WOW! My head is swimming with dolphins and I haven't even had a beer yet!
> If you wanted to see how a chain cuts couldn't you just set up the saw to cut the width of the cut off of the end of a log, basically shaving the end of the log? The only down side is that one side of cutters would not be in wood so it might not act the same as a normal cut would.



Hmmm, has me thinking, you could just use some clear cedar and film it, right? :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## Jonny Quest (Feb 21, 2009)

Dude...

You need to get out more.

I use a Granberg jig. My chains are very sharp and cut like a dream. If I happen to "rock" a chain, then I use my Granberg 12 volt hand grinder. This combo has produced a lot of chips & noodles.


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 22, 2009)

Jonny Quest said:


> Dude...
> 
> You need to get out more.
> 
> I use a Granberg jig. My chains are very sharp and cut like a dream. If I happen to "rock" a chain, then I use my Granberg 12 volt hand grinder. This combo has produced a lot of chips & noodles.


Yeah and one day you will find a machine grinder is worth the cost involved the older we get the less time we have and less effort we want to use sharpening chains. My grinder will produce a chain that cuts straight, fast and long in way less time than any method short of using new chains. I don't have any more sore knuckles. I can get one razorsharp with a round file and flat basterd but I can also do the same with my grinder and get drags teeth etc. the same depth and size. I can get them close by hand as well but takes much longer.


----------



## 2000ssm6 (Feb 22, 2009)

My eyes crossed about half way.....


----------



## mowoodchopper (Feb 22, 2009)

So are you saying the guy on youtube with the redneck chain sharpening video isn't doing it right? He just uses an angle grinder!!! LOL


----------



## Zodiac45 (Feb 22, 2009)

Whom ever resurrected this thread needs too have his incoming wood angle and The travel speed is the sum of the forward speed vector and the cutting speed vector checked!


----------



## Saw Bones (Feb 22, 2009)

zodiac45 said:


> whom ever resurrected this thread needs too have his incoming wood angle and the travel speed is the sum of the forward speed vector and the cutting speed vector checked!



+1


----------



## Gologit (Feb 22, 2009)

Zodiac45 said:


> Whom ever resurrected this thread needs too have his incoming wood angle and The travel speed is the sum of the forward speed vector and the cutting speed vector checked!



+2


----------



## ropensaddle (Feb 22, 2009)

gologit said:


> +2



+3


----------



## 7oaks (Feb 22, 2009)

ray benson said:


> Hopefully one day that slow-motion video of the chainsaw chain will make it to You Tube.



Send me the VHS or DVD and I'll digitize it and upload it to YouTube...Carl


----------



## woodguy105 (Feb 22, 2009)

777ER said:


> You mean like in the way the attached image shows?
> 
> Also see page 19 and 20 of this link:
> http://www.sawchain.com/images/complete book.pdf
> ...



Cool 777ER thanks for posting that link!


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## woodguy105 (Feb 22, 2009)

GASoline71 said:


> That is friggin' cool mang!!!
> 
> But please start a new thread so this worthless debacle will die away somewhere...
> 
> Gary



:monkey: How 'bout makin' it a Stickey.... or is that stinky?...


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## Glock2240 (Sep 6, 2009)

Tzed250 said:


> Trust me...it will get its own place. I just wonder what happened to the Nostradamus of saw chain???



What ever happened to the video?


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## 4ty8er (Oct 12, 2012)

Mr. Obvious said:


> By the way, this guy reminds me of one of my past chinese PhD students who once told me he had proven that God exists. Funny thing is he would never show me the proof.


No one is as blind as one who will not see.:msp_smile:


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## RAMROD48 (Oct 12, 2012)

4 year old thread...WOOO HOOO...


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## Bingo (Oct 12, 2012)

*Sharpening chains...*

"Considering the fact that I haven’t frozen to death. That means that I have pretty much come up with my own system to sharpening chains."
This was from the very first post. I thought he might have a system that would make sharpening chains easier...better...more efficient...and, after all those pages from a thread that was 4 yrs old...I got nada!...All I wanted was a better way to sharpen chains...not a treatise on the physics of how the chain works while cutting!...Even though it was all very interesting along the way I wasn't looking for or trying to find an intellectual approach to the theory of the chain in action....End result is I learned very little about a chainsaw chain...very interesting to be sure but not what I'd hoped for...A seeming waste of a PHD approach to the theory of the chain. A big mistake in ego when presented to guys that have been using these chains for years and years...w/great success...Wow...sorry but you've got to present something that changes the paradigm of the chain altogether...be innovative and completely ground breaking in your approach if you want the Noble.....Sorry, I didn't get much of a learning experience from all those pages...sad, as I had hoped for more...A good brain wasted....sigh!
An old post of incredible potential that, in the end, has come to naught...Suckered in again...I like the OP but coming up against reality and experience has proven his downfall it seems....Geez, I need a beer...Be nice if this were more up to date....Guess it's over...AS is fun though!


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## Moparmyway (Dec 4, 2012)

Bingo said:


> "Considering the fact that I haven’t frozen to death. That means that I have pretty much come up with my own system to sharpening chains."
> This was from the very first post. I thought he might have a system that would make sharpening chains easier...better...more efficient...and, after all those pages from a thread that was 4 yrs old...I got nada!...All I wanted was a better way to sharpen chains...not a treatise on the physics of how the chain works while cutting!...Even though it was all very interesting along the way I wasn't looking for or trying to find an intellectual approach to the theory of the chain in action....End result is I learned very little about a chainsaw chain...very interesting to be sure but not what I'd hoped for...A seeming waste of a PHD approach to the theory of the chain. A big mistake in ego when presented to guys that have been using these chains for years and years...w/great success...Wow...sorry but you've got to present something that changes the paradigm of the chain altogether...be innovative and completely ground breaking in your approach if you want the Noble.....Sorry, I didn't get much of a learning experience from all those pages...sad, as I had hoped for more...A good brain wasted....sigh!
> An old post of incredible potential that, in the end, has come to naught...Suckered in again...I like the OP but coming up against reality and experience has proven his downfall it seems....Geez, I need a beer...Be nice if this were more up to date....Guess it's over...AS is fun though!



I agree with you.
I just joined, but have worked on this stuff since I was a kid, spent $500 on a great benchtop sharpner 30 years back. I cut trees on the side for friends since I was chopping them down with an axe with my brother at 7 years for me, and he was 9. I file if I have to and do a pretty good job, but grind them whenever I can to keep then crisp.

Show me the difference in cutting with a 10 deg difference in cut angle, learn me why its better to keep the standard 30/60 than something like 35/65 .............
Anybody want to teach me what changes with different angles on the sharpner ?
I thought thats what I was going to read .................. guess more splitting on the wood pile for me, and if anyone wants to teach me something, I am all ears !!!


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## MCW (Dec 5, 2012)

Moparmyway said:


> I agree with you.
> I just joined, but have worked on this stuff since I was a kid, spent $500 on a great benchtop sharpner 30 years back. I cut trees on the side for friends since I was chopping them down with an axe with my brother at 7 years for me, and he was 9. I file if I have to and do a pretty good job, but grind them whenever I can to keep then crisp.
> 
> Show me the difference in cutting with a 10 deg difference in cut angle, learn me why its better to keep the standard 30/60 than something like 35/65 .............
> ...



Unfortunately a lot of us are under the impression we can teach somebody how to file a chain on the internet. We can't. Only one on one with somebody who knows what they are doing or experience can teach that. The OP thought he'd come out and dazzle us with brilliance or some end world hunger and cure cancer kind of new idea but alas...

The OP who has long gone thought he'd come along and change the world on how chain cuts. Typical highly strung individual who confuses theory with practice. I have struck a lot of people over the years who are basically too smart for their own good. This guy would be great fun to be around as I'm betting he would have a theory on every single thing on earth. You'd turn the kettle on and he'd simply have to explain how a kettle works. He'd then feel obliged to inform you on how a teabag infuses the surrounding water with tea. Do you know how sugar is extracted and refined? Well, just sit down and let me tell you blah blah blah.

He is quite simply a frustrated nerd.

In fact I'm betting he has already burnt his brain out trying to convince others he is the the next Albert Einstein.

Dammit I got sucked into replying to this darn thread...


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## Metals406 (Dec 6, 2012)

I'd like to point out that a 5° difference in cutter angle is like 15 thousands of an inch. So whether you're hand filing or grinding, I dare you to hold that kind of tolerance on your teeth, or have the sac to claim you notice a significant difference in the chains performance with 5°.

Jebus, the factory doesn't even give that much of a crap. . . Measure up a chain some time and see what their tolerances are. :msp_rolleyes:


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## Moparmyway (Dec 10, 2012)

MCW said:


> Unfortunately a lot of us are under the impression we can teach somebody how to file a chain on the internet. We can't. Only one on one with somebody who knows what they are doing or experience can teach that. The OP thought he'd come out and dazzle us with brilliance or some end world hunger and cure cancer kind of new idea but alas...
> 
> The OP who has long gone thought he'd come along and change the world on how chain cuts. Typical highly strung individual who confuses theory with practice. I have struck a lot of people over the years who are basically too smart for their own good. This guy would be great fun to be around as I'm betting he would have a theory on every single thing on earth. You'd turn the kettle on and he'd simply have to explain how a kettle works. He'd then feel obliged to inform you on how a teabag infuses the surrounding water with tea. Do you know how sugar is extracted and refined? Well, just sit down and let me tell you blah blah blah.
> 
> ...



Well, I appreciate your reply. ......and I agree with you. I had to show my brother how a file should only be pushed across the tooth one way, how to hold the bar and keep it steady while the smoothe push forward is linear, not curved as it moves forward. I got my little file working great, through years of trial and error. I can not explain it, but I can show you how to hold the bar and move the file without dragging it backwards so it stays sharp........ its something learned. 

I just wonder how the different angles affect cut speed, smootheness, grabbyness, or if the cut changes-does the saw has a faster "smoothe spot" when it cuts ? etc......
I suppose its just one of those things that will have to be personally experimented on to see if there is even any differences as far as chain sharpness durations ........
BUT wait !!!!
That would mess up my hand file system, wouldnt it ???? It would have to be sharpened differently by file..??
................. so maybe its best to stay @ 30/60 and file away when needed....................I can do a mean file job on my 044 !!


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## Moparmyway (Dec 10, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> I'd like to point out that a 5° difference in cutter angle is like 15 thousands of an inch. So whether you're hand filing or grinding, I dare you to hold that kind of tolerance on your teeth, or have the sac to claim you notice a significant difference in the chains performance with 5°.
> 
> Jebus, the factory doesn't even give that much of a crap. . . Measure up a chain some time and see what their tolerances are. :msp_rolleyes:



OK, so 15 deg then ..........
Sorry I think you missed my point.
I hand file and grind my chains, and through decades of both, I now have my filing and grinding working together for the last 15 years so I dont remove much at all on the wheel, even after a dozen touch ups in the field, every cutter just needs a slight dress, thats a close tolerance to me. I think that 5 deg would be a difference somewhere, maybe in how long the cutter stays sharp, maybe a smoother cut, or a cleaner wall on the cut along with a slightly faster cut .............. the dumb things you think of when cookie cutting 36" diameter Hickory so you can use your 12# maul for the next few months. Theres lots of thinking time doing this business ! Then I think - OREGON, STIHL, etc .... comes with those angles, so I should stop thinking, dont want my sac to hurt.


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## zogger (Dec 10, 2012)

Stihl 041S said:


> How do you keep the lift constant? It would change with load, chain temp, sharpness of the cutters,amount of oil.........




It would be possible to keep it more constant if the rails were shaped with left and right flanges, to stop the chain from coming out at all, and you had to thread the chain in loose as a string, then spin it to complete right on the bar. You'd have to "load the bar" in other words. The chain design would need a similar complimentary rivet extension or roller pin arrangement to ride up against the sideways part of the rail.




I am sure the bar and chain designers have thought of this, because it is obvious, and also obviously rejected it for several reasons..but it would work Ok. Proly cut pretty good actually...Be a bear to manufacture and bars would wear out faster (using the special chain). They could be cut on wearout though and you could switch to normal chain...


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