# Ghetto grapple skidder idea



## Jim Timber (Sep 6, 2012)

I've got some areas I'd like to open up, but don't want big equipment to fit when done (like pulling a single cull tree out of a young stand). I've been planning on using a logging arch behind my atv, but then it dawned on me - a utility tractor/backhoe would just need a grapple fabbed up, and I'd have better pulling power.

So is this idea nuts? I can do all the fab work, I just don't know if a bucket boom would hold up to being tugged on like that? My biggest trees are only 18" DBH, and I already figured on topping them before dragging out.

I also need the hoe for digging stumps and such, so it wouldn't be a special purchase.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 6, 2012)

a 20' hemlock 18" dbh weighs in the neighborhood of 1500 pounds, picked hemlock becouse its sort of a middle weight between hard woods and soft woods. Then factor in drag from the dirt, and getting hung up on stumps etc. There be allot of weight hanging of the back of your tractor. And a grapple adds a bunch of leverage to that. Not to mention the grapple itself will end up at a guess around 500 pounds at least if'n ya want it to stay together for more than a few days. Anyway can your tractor handle that much hanging off its three point? Will the front wheels stay on the ground?
A better option is the commercially available skidding winchs such as the Farmi and other brands. Tractor logging can be done Ya just have to be very careful where you go with your tractor, you don't have the sheer weight of a skidder or the maneuverability of articulation or tracks, Not to mention the cage forestry machinery comes standard with


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## rwoods (Sep 6, 2012)

Two thoughts for you to consider: 1) IMO a utility tractor with a backhoe would be maxed out with just a small log. Check with a reputable dealer and you will hear of utility tractors that have been broken in half just hauling heavy round hay bales (without a backhoe) down the highway. The drive train of utility tractors aren't designed for the shock loads imposed by bouncing or hitting objects while carrying a lot of weight. Also a backhoe's downriggers are used to support the load during digging. 2) Before you buy a backhoe to dig stumps, go rent one and run it for a day doing this - there is a reason that landclearers typical push trees over and then cut them up rather than cut them down and dig stumps. I think you'll find that digging stumps with a real backhoe is hard enough without trying to do it with a utility tractor. Ron


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## Jim Timber (Sep 6, 2012)

Utility tractors don't have 3pt hitches. They have a loader, and a hoe. The hoes that come off are typically junk - so I'd get one that's built as one, not had one added as an after thought.

I can buy the whole tractor for $5K. Renting one would cost a good chunk of that. I need the hoe to build a couple ponds, and maybe dig some holes. Digging stumps is a bonus if I'll do it.

My main trees I'll be cutting are aspen and basswood - pretty light stuff. The oaks and maple will only be cut in certain areas. Elm, birch, and hop hornbeam (ironwood) fill out the list, but I don't have much of those three.


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## jnl502 (Sep 6, 2012)

I've used a mid sized older tractor, a 601 workmaster Ford with a log arck mounted to the 3 point tractor and it worked pretty good but if I was doing another job I would upgrade. A 444, 454 IH with good brakes and good rubber that is liquid filled or I put new rubber have them foam filled. Build a log arch with swivel wheels on the bottom like the ones on a bush hog rotery cutter to help hold weight off of the 3 point. Then a chain and wench setup. You get the idea as for the stumps maybe a skid steer. You could dig around the tree and pull it over. I have done this and it can be done safely if planed. Good luck with your plans
jnl


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## rwoods (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm a Deere man and this is what Deere considers an utility tractor:




Since you mentioned an atv log arch, I assumed in error that you were talking about a compact utility tractor:



Anyway, a good size dedicated backhoe shouldn't have any problem dragging a log of the size you described but there are better ways to do this. Of course if skidding logs is only secondary to digging holes then a backhoe makes a far better choice than trying to dig with a skidder. Ron

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## northmanlogging (Sep 6, 2012)

a log "arch" with tongs is another way just make sure to put a swivel on the tongs! Utility tractors that I am familiar with have a three point hitch, The front loader is an option, the backhoe (that attaches to the three point...) is an option. The Backhoe that yer probably thinking of as a "utility" tractor is a BACKHOE and is special built one piece unit. As mentioned before the out riggers keep it from tipping over. And as a side note most of them if ya put the front loader up about half way and dump the clutch it will do some awesome wheelies, that's with the rear bucket tucked in and empty...(bosses hate this:msp_w00t


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## jnl502 (Sep 7, 2012)

A decent backhoe is going to run in the 12-15 K range and on flat ground would do the job. But, is like rideing a rocking chair. On uneven ground an accident waiting to happen. 
I have seen people use 4x4's to skid logs and seem to do well. If you had a deicated 4x with some 8 ply trencher type tires with chains and welded up diff's would work pretty well. A arch welded in the bed with a wench to pick it up and tongs on a short chain. Weld a chain hook on the arch and just hook the chain on and wench it up. A good 4x can be had for $2500 or less and build it for off road only.
jnl


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## Jim Timber (Sep 7, 2012)

I've thought about building a dedicated "mule" to haul logs around. Like a skidder someone put in water and shrunk.  I could start with a little 100hp 4 banger, mate it to a wicked gear reduction, and then hook it up to a couple narrowed front axles and have 4 wheel steering. Fluid filled tires for weight, and a roll cage to keep the widow makers out.

I'm actually talking to a guy who's got an old airport "tug" to possibly use as a donor vehicle. It's got a chrysler 225ci I-6 and a double gear reduction already - I just don't know how well that thing would adapt to being lifted for more ground clearance. Right now, it's 7" off the pavement, and that won't fly in my boulder pocked dirt. If it was flat, that thing would probably be perfect with some ag tires instead of the turf ones they come with.


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## psuiewalsh (Sep 7, 2012)

You need a loader with a utility bucket. Really hauls out the splits too.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 7, 2012)

I've got about 5 of the CL listings saved for loaders - all of them are over 10K, and I just don't have that much money at the moment.

I need to sell some wood or win the lottery before I can buy decent gear. Right now I'm trying to get it done on the cheap.


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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

I've toyed with the idea of making one of these into a poor man's skidder - four wheel steer (crabs, too), plantary axles, Turbo 400 automatic tranny, 6.2 diesel, top speed high gear high range about 25mph, weighs about 5 tons, and I believe cold A/C. Unfortunately, if I went through with it I may have to call it home. Ron




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## psuiewalsh (Sep 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> I've toyed with the idea of making one of these into a poor man's skidder - four wheel steer (crabs, too), plantary axles, Turbo 400 automatic tranny, 6.2 diesel, top speed high gear high range about 25mph, weighs about 5 tons, and I believe cold A/C. Unfortunately, if I went through with it I may have to call it home. Ron
> 
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> ...



That would be an awsome snow pusher


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## Jim Timber (Sep 7, 2012)

I put my offer in of 300 on the tug, the guys asking 700 trade items - probably won't get it, but who knows.

It's roughly scrap value, and I'm sure he knows that.


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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

psuiewalsh said:


> That would be an awsome snow pusher



Most were released to the public a few years ago. The Dodges and Jeeps are up now. Too bad they are 2wd. They have nice Cummins engines though. Some others are 4wd with planetaries; I believe they have 4 cylinder Perkins. Ron
















Rear view of Chevy






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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> I've got about 5 of the CL listings saved for loaders - all of them are over 10K, and I just don't have that much money at the moment.
> 
> I need to sell some wood or win the lottery before I can buy decent gear. Right now I'm trying to get it done on the cheap.



There's a bunch of these JD644s coming up for auction. Unfortunately, they are all in Georgia. But if you keep a look out there maybe one at some militrary base near you. Ron





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## Jim Timber (Sep 7, 2012)

The guy came back with $500 on the tug. I'm curious about what rear end is in it, and how hard it would be to lock. The size is right, the price is close to right, and I'd just need to find a divorced transfer case to stuff in it to enable 4wd and slap a new live axle under the front, then lift it some.

I'm not crazy about the chrysler engine, but I can't buy a decent garden tractor for the same money.


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## psuiewalsh (Sep 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> There's a bunch of these JD644s coming up for auction. Unfortunately, they are all in Georgia. But if you keep a look out there maybe one at some militrary base near you. Ron
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dads loader pictured previously is 644B. It is very handy esp with the utility bucket. We were notching 20" oaks and pushing them over with no issues. then cut the log at 17' and carry to the pile. Also very quick to cut off firewood rounds as the whole tree is held up off the ground.


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## psuiewalsh (Sep 7, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> The guy came back with $500 on the tug. I'm curious about what rear end is in it, and how hard it would be to lock. The size is right, the price is close to right, and I'd just need to find a divorced transfer case to stuff in it to enable 4wd and slap a new live axle under the front, then lift it some.
> 
> I'm not crazy about the chrysler engine, but I can't buy a decent garden tractor for the same money.



I wonder if you find the right transfer case you could add a hydraulic pump and add alot of possibilities


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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> The guy came back with $500 on the tug. I'm curious about what rear end is in it, and how hard it would be to lock. The size is right, the price is close to right, and I'd just need to find a divorced transfer case to stuff in it to enable 4wd and slap a new live axle under the front, then lift it some.
> 
> I'm not crazy about the chrysler engine, but I can't buy a decent garden tractor for the same money.



Can't help you with axle question. No really experience but I have been told that the Chrysler industrial engines have a good reputation. Some Clark forklifts had the slant 6 which I know is a good engine. When your $ allows buy one of these and you'll have a backhoe and skidder potential. Last I checked they were going for around $15,000 straight off the base. Some are pristine and some are dogs. Many even include a hydraulic chainsaw thrown in the tool box. This one looks pretty good and is up for sale now. Ron





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## psuiewalsh (Sep 7, 2012)

rwoods said:


> Can't help you with axle question. No really experience but I have been told that the Chrysler industrial engines have a good reputation. Some Clark forklifts had the slant 6 which I know is a good engine. When your $ allows buy one of these and you'll have a backhoe and skidder potential. Last I checked they were going for around $15,000 straight off the base. Some are pristine and some are dogs. Many even include a hydraulic chainsaw thrown in the tool box. This one looks pretty good and is up for sale now. Ron
> 
> 
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> ...



Is that a UNIMOG with mercedes diesel?


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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes. Ron


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## rwoods (Sep 7, 2012)

Jim Timber, if you would supply some more information about the tug such as make and model, I would be happy to see what specs I can find. Ron


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## redprospector (Sep 7, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> The guy came back with $500 on the tug. I'm curious about what rear end is in it, and how hard it would be to lock. The size is right, the price is close to right, and I'd just need to find a divorced transfer case to stuff in it to enable 4wd and slap a new live axle under the front, then lift it some.
> 
> I'm not crazy about the chrysler engine, but I can't buy a decent garden tractor for the same money.



Ok, I have been pretty quiet lately, but I've got to throw my 2 cents in on this one.
In my opinion.....The only way you can break even on this is if scrap iron goes to $250 a ton, and that's before you spend the money & time to find a divorced transfer case, a front end, and a ring gear & pinon to make it match the rear end. After you get that several thousand dollar investment installed you will need to get more aggressive tires. Couple more grand? Then you'll need a winch, an electric one won't do, you really need a pto winch. Well crap, now you need a pto to fit the tranny, or transfer case. Good luck finding a good used one. I won't go into the 1000 little unforseen things that will need to be done to get this project right.
I figure that when you finally get that tug transformed into a halfased skidder you'll probably have about $8000 tied up in that $500 tug, and that's all anyone will ever view it as is a $500 tug. You'll never get your investment back when you're done with it.
I personally believe that you'll be far better off buying a tractor of some sort to fit the budget. At least you'd be able to sell it when you're done if you want to. 
If you're planning on moving logs, nothing works better than something that was designed to do the job.

Andy


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## OlympicYJ (Sep 7, 2012)

Andy is right on that stuff addingbup. Maybe a nice little skidder like the mountain logger....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## KYLogger (Sep 7, 2012)

redprospector said:


> ok, i have been pretty quiet lately, but i've got to throw my 2 cents in on this one.
> In my opinion.....the only way you can break even on this is if scrap iron goes to $250 a ton, and that's before you spend the money & time to find a divorced transfer case, a front end, and a ring gear & pinon to make it match the rear end. After you get that several thousand dollar investment installed you will need to get more aggressive tires. Couple more grand? Then you'll need a winch, an electric one won't do, you really need a pto winch. Well crap, now you need a pto to fit the tranny, or transfer case. Good luck finding a good used one. I won't go into the 1000 little unforseen things that will need to be done to get this project right.
> I figure that when you finally get that tug transformed into a halfased skidder you'll probably have about $8000 tied up in that $500 tug, and that's all anyone will ever view it as is a $500 tug. You'll never get your investment back when you're done with it.
> I personally believe that you'll be far better off buying a tractor of some sort to fit the budget. At least you'd be able to sell it when you're done if you want to.
> ...



amen!


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## Jim Timber (Sep 8, 2012)

It's a United Tractor GC-340-4 

The rear end is dually 16.5's, so I'd be looking at $600 to put skidsteer tires on it (I already know where I can get them for 150 each new). Front axle would be $250 or so, and the transfercase might run me another 300. Hydraulics were what makes me so interested in this little thing - that engine has plenty of power to run a belt driven pump: no need to run it off the t-case. Maybe you're forgetting I am a machinist, and I own a full shop of gear? I don't pay other people to make this stuff. I have a 410A mig welder too...

The size package of the tug is the attractive aspect - it's smaller than a compact car, and is rated to pull 46,000lbs up a 13% slope. Now that's a rolling load probably on pavement, and who knows what it will do with a skid load on dirt, but my land is pretty flat on half of it, and that half is where most of my clear cutting will happen.

I don't see this as an investment in anything but my productivity and the FUN of modifying something "different." I'm not making it to resell, I'm making it to be useful for me. I also haven't committed to buying it yet (I have similar issues with the end result as some of the dissenting views here - this ain't my first franken-machine). At the end of the day, I don't give a crap what anyone else thinks of it, as long as it works for the job I intended it to do.

I'd LOVE to have a unimog! I'd even make wider trails to fit one on my land.  Those things rock.  I'll take a look at those demilled loaders too. I'd get a lot of use out of one, even if I'd have to winch up to it for some of the cuttings. I don't have 15K, and I can't get 15K... so if that's really what they cost, I'm out.


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## northmanlogging (Sep 8, 2012)

The little tug with the 4 wheel steering would be an ok way to go, but only if you can get the ground clearance! The skid steer tires are just too bloody short to do any good. Ya need as much clearance between the axles and dirt or Stumps as you can safely get, which means BIG tires, something in the range of 4' and taller, which means modifying the wheels to fit the axles ya got with the wheels that fit em and a set of 44" super swampers will probably only last about 2 hours in the woods, Yer gonna knead A.G. tires at least, All very doable if ya gots yer own Machine shop like yas said... Wheel adapters are a sinch. While your at it just lose the fenders in the scrap heap ya knead the clearance anyway and they wont last much longer than the head lights or windsheil should be fun...:msp_scared:


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## Jim Timber (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm getting around ok with 13" of ground clearance on my atv, but I do agree more would be better for the little tug.

I haven't committed to buying it. For 300 I'd get it for chits and giggles, but 500 is over my threshold for toys which require work, and closer to the "get an old tractor for $2K" instead side.

I need to sell some wood to pay for better gear, and once I do that, I don't need a huge 26,000lb loader just to clear some patches of trees. I'm not working other properties. I'm NOT a logger. Some of you guys don't seem to get that - I have 20-30 acres I want cleared, after that's done - I'm gonna be mowing my shooting range and yard for 20 years waiting for some pines to get big enough to cut.


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## floyd (Sep 8, 2012)

OK, here's what YOU don't get. We ARE loggers. Some do this, & just this for a living. MOST of us have a clue. 


Do you?


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## slowp (Sep 8, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> I'm getting around ok with 13" of ground clearance on my atv, but I do agree more would be better for the little tug.
> 
> I haven't committed to buying it. For 300 I'd get it for chits and giggles, but 500 is over my threshold for toys which require work, and closer to the "get an old tractor for $2K" instead side.
> 
> I need to sell some wood to pay for better gear, and once I do that, I don't need a huge 26,000lb loader just to clear some patches of trees. I'm not working other properties. I'm NOT a logger. Some of you guys don't seem to get that - I have 20-30 acres I want cleared, after that's done - I'm gonna be mowing my shooting range and yard for 20 years waiting for some pines to get big enough to cut.



Well, you keep asking questions of loggers and _foresters_. If you don't like what they are telling you, perhaps you should ask all this in the homeowner helper forum. Then you might be able to get somebody to agree and bless whatever you are doing. I hope your neighbors don't mind having a shooting range nearby. 


_Sent without coffee kicked in._


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## northmanlogging (Sep 8, 2012)

Just trying to help there boss... Don't mean to ruffle any feathers. Logging is not easy or safe no matter how many precautions ya take, moving logs is difficult under the best of circumstances. Cobbled together gear is just adding another headache. Hel even the big machines break down all the bloody time our advice is just that advice to try and make you're home improvement project go a little smoother.
As far as ground clearance is concerned a four wheeler a guy can pick up and throw off of an obstacle, a skidder even a home made one is going to take a Hel of allot more then a push and a pull to get unstuck when (not if) it gets hung up on any thing.


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## rwoods (Sep 8, 2012)

Jim Timber, you left out a lot of details so it is no surprise that everyone who is trying to help you, including me, may go in a direction you didn't intend. From your posts so far, I assume you have no money to throw away, you enjoy making things, and you have some semi-rough ground with lots of projects - land clearing, pond building, etc. That said, only you can prioritize your use of time, money and skills. The tug you are looking at weighs only 5000# and has a drawbar pull of only 4000# with a maximum safe slope of 15 degrees. You have been given a lot of good advice here. Personally, I think it is a waste of your time, talent and money - and is potentially an accident waiting to happen - could be as simple as getting that little beast stuck (which you will) and hurting yourself trying to free it. If your wood is small enough and your ground is suitable for ATV skidding then work that line. Save your resources for your other projects. But don't deceive yourself - if you can't afford a day's rental to try out the right equipment, you can't afford to experiment trying to build it. 

Anyway here is a link to more than you will ever want to know about the tug: http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-10-3930-626-12.pdf 

By the way the rear axle is: 
(9) Rear (drive) axle.
Manufacturer Rockwell Standard
Part number . . . . . . . . . . . . . . TA267FSH
Drop case reduction ratio . . . 3.0 to 1
Differential reduction ratio . . .5 4/6 to 1
Brake type Drum hydraulic
Brake shoe size . . . . . . . . . .12½ in. x 2½ in. 

Ron


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## Jim Timber (Sep 8, 2012)

Our ziegler won't rent anything of substance to someone without a business insurance policy - doesn't matter that I have a 1 Mill personal liability umbrella. I wanted to rent a D8 @2K a week and they refused to deliver it the 8 miles to my land, and then found out I don't own a lowboy or a semi to pull one with. Right now, I don't have a suitable access road to get a truck in, let alone something that's 10' wide.

My neighbors can't do a damn thing about my shooting - it's rural, and the county has imposed lot restrictions with the intentions of keeping it rural. We have neighbors who shoot high power rifles on 200' deep lots (yes, scary!).

I'm not buying the tug.


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## rwoods (Sep 8, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> Our ziegler won't rent anything of substance to someone without a business insurance policy - doesn't matter that I have a 1 Mill personal liability umbrella. * I wanted to rent a D8 @2K a week and they refused to deliver it the 8 miles to my land, and then found out I don't own a lowboy or a semi to pull one with.* Right now, I don't have a suitable access road to get a truck in, let alone something that's 10' wide.
> 
> My neighbors can't do a damn thing about my shooting - it's rural, and the county has imposed lot restrictions with the intentions of keeping it rural. We have neighbors who shoot high power rifles on 200' deep lots (yes, scary!).
> 
> I'm not buying the tug.



Once again you and I are talking two different things. I am talking about the type of equipment our local rental stores carry and deliver - mid-size 4wd JCB backhoes on down. Maybe where you live this type equipment isn't available. Give it some time and you'll figure out what is best for your situation. Ron


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## redprospector (Sep 8, 2012)

Jim, I understand that you're a machinist. The question remains; Are you a magician too?
Since you're not buying the tug it doesn't matter right now. 
Good luck with your property. I hope everything turns out exactly the way you envision it.

Andy


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## terryknight (Sep 9, 2012)

it's your life and your money do what you wnat and what makes you happy. 

it's sounds like a backhoe is what would make the most sense. and they are very versatile machines.


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## loggert (Sep 10, 2012)

my younger brother just made a nice firewood skidder out of a ditch witch machine hes got a blade on it and a small bachhoe on it took the bucket off and made a small log bucket to load his 1 ton he put two tear drops on it and uses twich chains works good for what he does .


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## madhatte (Sep 10, 2012)

rwoods said:


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I know those 'Mogs. They're the coolest thing on 4 wheels. 20-speed cascading transmission (16 speeds forward, 4 reverse), portal axles, 6-cyl Mercedes diesel, GNARLY PTO, will do freeway speeds (if barely)... at $15K surplus, they're a steal. I hope to get one someday. I want one with a body I can build a camper into. Won't be anywhere I can't go.


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## Jim Timber (Sep 10, 2012)

Eventually I'll need to be able to clear a lot of dirt for the geothermal grid. Right now I'm only concerned with getting some money out of the trees I need removed without spending every penny I can hope to recover from it in the process.


I've often looked at ditch-witches in a similar light. Very capable little units with a small footprint. I'm going to need to rent one of those when it's time to put the power and phone lines in. I don't want lines going 1/4 mile through the trees. The cost of the poles and the time to install them will more than cover the additional expense of trenching and burial rated cable. I think I'm going with 400A service at the new place.


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## sodbreaker (Sep 16, 2012)

FWIW I've also been toying with the idea of building a log skidder. I probably will never actualy build it. But day dreaming helps me get through the other wise boring work days.

I figured out so far:

300-6 Ford, 4+4 trany behind it. Plus a 2spd trans case. Use two semi truck axles with something in the range 6.00:1 gears ratios. Articulated frame with the cab on the front half right above the blade. Engine on the back half with a wrecker boom and a cable winch. The other thing is buy a set a "mat tracks." Basicly you have "Quad track" setup up. Make it not more than about 4-5 ft wide and about 12-14 ft long. add a 5-6Ft blade on the front. 

Like I said, For what it's worth.
Sod breaker


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## Oldtimer (Sep 16, 2012)

Dude. Go get a big old Ox. Become an old timey logger. When the job is done, eat the ox.


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## rwoods (Sep 16, 2012)

He would have to boil that OX a long time or get himself a spare pair of choppers. :msp_smile: Ron


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## redprospector (Sep 16, 2012)

rwoods said:


> He would have to boil that OX a long time or get himself a spare pair of choppers. :msp_smile: Ron



Slow cook it.
You can eat a 10.00-20 truck tire if you cook it long enough. 

Andy


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## rwoods (Sep 17, 2012)

redprospector said:


> Slow cook it.
> You can eat a 10.00-20 truck tire if you cook it long enough.
> 
> Andy



I can still remember eating bull burgers as a kid. I wouldn't wish that pleasure on anyone. Ron


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## cedarcreek (Sep 22, 2012)

*Bobcat 430 excavator*



Jim Timber said:


> I've got some areas I'd like to open up, but don't want big equipment to fit when done (like pulling a single cull tree out of a young stand). I've been planning on using a logging arch behind my atv, but then it dawned on me - a utility tractor/backhoe would just need a grapple fabbed up, and I'd have better pulling power.
> 
> So is this idea nuts? I can do all the fab work, I just don't know if a bucket boom would hold up to being tugged on like that? My biggest trees are only 18" DBH, and I already figured on topping them before dragging out.
> 
> I also need the hoe for digging stumps and such, so it wouldn't be a special purchase.




Hi Jim,
I have a Bobcat 430, and I have found it to be invaluable for pulling, digging, lifting, pushing, clearing. As well as a tree falling aid when close to buildings, or select logging. As far as pulling is concerned, you want to be careful about fully extending the arm and pulling via backing up, you should not do this. You should set the machine as close as you can to the log to be pulled. Choke the log to your bucket and pull it via retracting the arm. You have a push blade on an excavator, set the end of the log on the push blade, lift the blade which lifts the end of the log off the ground. Choke the log onto the blade and back the machine out pulling the log with you. You can do this with multable logs too. Good luck.

Cedar


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