# Arizona Wallow fire pics.



## robfromaz1977 (Jun 20, 2011)

Alot of photos of the fire.


Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests' Photostream


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## 2dogs (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks!


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## dave k (Jun 20, 2011)

Incredible pics I can't believe that so much beauty and destruction could could be in the same frame. Hope that makes sense ! Thanks for posting and hope everyone in that massive effort is safe.


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## mdavlee (Jun 20, 2011)

There's a lot of good pictures on that slide show. It's sad how big the fire is now. I've been in some of that area from springerville southwest towards phoenix and in the alpine area is where I was staying at the time.


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## madhatte (Jun 20, 2011)

dave k said:


> I can't believe that so much beauty and destruction could could be in the same frame. Hope that makes sense !


 
Boy does it ever. Why do you think any of us work in fire at all?


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## GRTimberCO (Jun 21, 2011)

Truelly awsome pictures. Some of those were unbelievable.


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## ChrisF (Jun 21, 2011)

Amazing photos, thanks for sharing the link!


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## GRTimberCO (Jun 22, 2011)

Looking at those pictures I'm assuming that most of those guys are part time/ or what the USFS calls temporary employees. What does it take to get on with the USFS to work part time like this?


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## slowp (Jun 22, 2011)

Those first many pictures were brown nose  pictures. They were of Tidwell, who is the current Chief of the Forest Service.
He is the head honcho, so many pictures must be taken. 


GR Timber.
You need to fill out an application to get a seasonal job. Call your nearest ranger station and find out who to talk to. I believe you will need to get an application in during the first part of the year. Then trolls that live in an unknown bunker rumored to be somewhere in Albuquerque, where they actually have a dress code, or tried to have one, will pore over your application and decide what you are good for....even though they have no idea what the job is. Then a selection is made.

It is a tedious, time consuming process. Good Luck.


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## 2dogs (Jun 22, 2011)

slowp said:


> Those first many pictures were brown nose  pictures. They were of Tidwell, who is the current Chief of the Forest Service.
> He is the head honcho, so many pictures must be taken.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Who wizzed in your Cheerios this morning?


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## madhatte (Jun 22, 2011)

DoD is the same... and the decisions are also made in AZ... Ft Huachuca, to be exact. I don't understand at all.


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## slowp (Jun 22, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Who wizzed in your Cheerios this morning?


 
Sorry. Just cynical after many years. The Albuquerque (no) Service Center has been a mysterious area. I do believe they have improved as I started getting retirement pay right away. Others have not been so lucky. There have been many horror stories of temporary employees not getting any pay, being unable to fill positions because of backlogs, numerous problems. They have improved. The FS is also going a bit retro after this grand experiment, they have put some personnel people back on Forests. 

Like everything else, downsizing to save money but not time. OK, the other pictures were good--the Dirty People.


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## nw axe man (Jun 22, 2011)

slowp said:


> Those first many pictures were brown nose  pictures. They were of Tidwell, who is the current Chief of the Forest Service.
> He is the head honcho, so many pictures must be taken.
> 
> 
> ...


 Patty, sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on it. When I get paid I also get paid from that unknown bunker that someone has to go find everytime I submit an invoice. Seems like they lose it every time. Definitely can make for some cynical attitudes. Even with Honey Cheerios. lol


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## robfromaz1977 (Jun 23, 2011)

Here is a neat pic in Alpine. Only the burned up mountain behind the elk isn't neat. :msp_sad:


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## forestryworks (Jun 23, 2011)

I bet none of that timber will get salvaged :monkey:


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## slowp (Jun 23, 2011)

That picture of Alpine makes me wonder where my Hannegan Helitack hat is. I won it in a golf game there. No, I am not a good golfer and the game is quite boring unless you spice it up. I just happened to hit the longest drive in the Women's division. I think it was the thin air. 

The Apache Rez salvaged their burnt wood after the last big fire. I believe the folks on the Black Mesa FS district put up a little bit--snags along roads.


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## Whiteman (Jun 23, 2011)

Here ya go boss.


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## Gologit (Jun 23, 2011)

Whiteman said:


> Here ya go boss.


 

Looks like Erickson AirCrane is doing alright. 3 S-64s drawing standby pay.


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## Gologit (Jun 23, 2011)

2dogs said:


> Who wizzed in your Cheerios this morning?


 
I think that getting your Cheerios wizzed in for 32 straight years might just maybe provoke an occasional sarcastic comment.


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## nw axe man (Jun 23, 2011)

Whiteman said:


> Here ya go boss.


 
That's a great pic! Keep em coming.


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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 4, 2011)




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## atvguns (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey Rob thanks for posting the pics did you loose any property in all of that


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## mdavlee (Jul 4, 2011)

Lots of good pictures there. How close did it come to the power plant right outside of springerville? I worked on unti 3 when it was being built about 6 years ago. I was staying up in Alpine if I remember right in a little tiny motel beside a gas station.


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## Gologit (Jul 4, 2011)

*Timber salvage*

Has anyone heard if there are any plans for salvage logging from the burn?


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## forestryworks (Jul 4, 2011)

As long as the environmentalists and the Feds run the National Forests... they'll just keep on burning.

We need more proactive forest management, and less reactive firefighting.


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## SDB777 (Jul 4, 2011)

Sure makes ya think about doing some controlled burns, under supervised conditions to remove the large amounts of 'fuel' on the ground.

Half million plus acres, property and whatnot.....whew!
Cool link!








Scott B


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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 5, 2011)

atvguns said:


> Hey Rob thanks for posting the pics did you loose any property in all of that


 
It never got close to my house. Some of the homes up in Eagar about 2 miles away got close but none burned.


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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 5, 2011)

mdavlee said:


> Lots of good pictures there. How close did it come to the power plant right outside of springerville? I worked on unti 3 when it was being built about 6 years ago. I was staying up in Alpine if I remember right in a little tiny motel beside a gas station.


 
It never got north of Springerville. I work at the power plant 20 miles further north.


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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 5, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Has anyone heard if there are any plans for salvage logging from the burn?


 
I have not heard what the plans are but I did see a log truck loaded with burnt logs sitting in Eagar just a few days ago. Not sure where they came from exactly but it couldn't have been far.


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## Whiteman (Jul 8, 2011)

I just heard on the radio that they were going to take bids on a ten year thinning project. They were talking about how thinning would benefit the owls rather than it burning up. I guess they had to see it first?:bang:


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## slowp (Jul 8, 2011)

Whiteman said:


> I just heard on the radio that they were going to take bids on a ten year thinning project. They were talking about how thinning would benefit the owls rather than it burning up. I guess they had to see it first?:bang:



More like Congress had to see it and be reminded. They are the ones who really control the purse strings.
Memories are short.


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## robfromaz1977 (Jul 9, 2011)

They declaired the Wallow fire 100% contained yesterday at 6:00 PM. The last acre count I saw was 538,049.


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## MikeinAZ (Jul 23, 2011)

Figured I'd give you all an update on this as those of us south of the fire are starting to see the after effects.

I live in Clifton, AZ. About 31 miles south of the Wallow Fire. And the easy part of the fire is over. There were threee major watersheds affected in this fire.

The San Francisco River watershed (where I live) is completely destroyed. Pretty much the entire river has been rendered devoid of life due to the sediment runoff and the acidity of the ash. The river runs the color and consistency of chocolate syrup when it rains. Many endangered species have pretty much been wiped out due to massive fish kills. Spikedace and loach minnows and the Chiracahua leopard frog are among them. The cottonwoods along the river are turning yellow and dropping their leaves already. USFS tells us it will take 5 to 10 years for the river to recover. Wonder how SAn Carlos Dam is going to handle all this?

The Salt River watershed has also sustained heavy damage. It feeds the area around Phoenix. The extent is still unknown at this point.

The Little Colorado River watershed has also sustained heavy damage due to sediment runoff and the acidity of the ash.

We are being told to stay of the Coronado Trail (Route 191) due to mudslides and trees falling across the road in the burnt areas. So right now it is pretty much a travel at your own risk thing. The bad thing is that this fire has been predicted for over a decade. No one learned from the Rodeo-Chediski fire.

After talking to some friends that were there (I tried to get my red card straightened out), the fire behavior displayed in this fire was nothing like anyone has seen before. This fire was jumping canyons instead of following them and was actively back burning downslope AGAINST the wind. IT was crowning out in areas that was not predicted and lightly burning area that were expected to go through a hard burn. This fire was a warning for what is to come if things are not changed.

There will be a salvage sale coming out this spring. But with nearly 125,000 acres and a little over 1 billion board feet of lumber to be salvaged, I really don't think we will make a dent in it before it goes bad. Some of these trees are massive, 40+ inches in diameter. Best bet would probably be to high grade it and get what we can.


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## Gologit (Jul 24, 2011)

MikeinAZ said:


> There will be a salvage sale coming out this spring. But with nearly 125,000 acres and a little over 1 billion board feet of lumber to be salvaged, I really don't think we will make a dent in it before it goes bad. Some of these trees are massive, 40+ inches in diameter. Best bet would probably be to high grade it and get what we can.


 

Is the timber scattered or is there good volume per acre? Species? Any idea of how the sales will be set up as to separate units and their size?

Yarder ground, helicopter, Cat logging?


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## slowp (Jul 24, 2011)

Where are the mills located? Is there still one in Heber?


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## MikeinAZ (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm not sure how it is going to be split up. Species is mainly ponderosa pine. Most areas have a good volume per acre. You can get an idea of what is there by going through the photo stream.

The problem is that we have basically no infrastructure left in the area thanks to the environmentalists. The only mills I know of are the ones that Renegy owns and they can only 20 million board feet a year.

When the reservation lands burnt in 2002, the Apaches cut it all down and loaded in on railcars to be shipped to a mill somewhere in Georgia.


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## slowp (Jul 24, 2011)

It isn't totally the enviro's fault. Stone Container decided to go 100% recycled paper in their paper mill and that stopped the market for the little peckerpoles that the enviros are in favor of cutting. I'd say more like 85% would be more of a blame factor...Thanks to the former Southwest Center for Biological Diversity which is now a bigger (got rid of the Southwest) Center for Biological Diversity.


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## MikeinAZ (Jul 24, 2011)

slowp,

I've been involved in alot of what is going on here with the forest. I talk to the rangers here on a regular basis. And 100% of the blame lies on the Center for Biological Destruction. The A-S forest has tried many times in the past to get thinning projects going only to have the plans shot down by a bunch of enviro's who screamed we were going to clear cut the forest.

While CBD is involved in the White Mountain Stewardship project, they also went after the Greater Flagstaff Forest Partnership for doing the exact same thing the is going on up around Alpine and the like. CBD litigated the GFFP projects based on "unproven" science and techniques. Believe me, CBD has no interest in "saving" the environment, thye only care about litigating everything they can to gain money and power. They have forced the current management policies through litigation and they continue to do so. Right now, some 30% of the A-S budget goes directly to deal with litigation brought about by the enviro's. That 30% would go a long way in cleaning up this forest.

A major OSB manufacturer wasgoing to build an OSB plant here if the USFS would sign a 20 year contract to supply small diameter timber to the plant. The USFS would not sign the contract due to fear of litigation being brought about by the enviro's. This came directly from one of the Rangers. That plant would have needed around 30,000 acres a year to feed it.

There are also quite a few pellet mills coming online around here now. They would need around 5000 acres a year to feed them. There is also a big pellet mill about to start over in New Mexico. It has the capacity to produce 40,000 tons a year. So at a average of 100 tons per acre needing removed right now, that would chew up another 400 acres a year. Demand for wood pellets in Europe right now is exploding.

And add into this the fact that China is building 10 million affordable housing units for their people. Right now they are buying massive amounts of low grade logs from Canada for dimensional lumber. And thye still wnat more. Mature ponderosa pine makes and excellent dimensional product and we could sell everything that is burnt up there in a heartbeat.

The biomass power plant in Snowflake also needs and additional 100,000 tons of biomass to operate, so there is another 1000 acres a year.


We could get this forest cleaned up right quick if we could get the enviro's out of the way. The problem right now is, is that many of these places are afraid to sign a contract or hire any one to clean this up due to the possibility of the enviro's litigating the crap out of everything because they didn't get there own way. Alot of people could go back to work on this and stay employed for a very long time.

The market is there, it just needs to be developed a little. But unfortunately, what we have here is a small group of people who rely on peoples fears and knee jerk reactions to misinformation. And they have become very effective at it. And our forests are the ones suffering the most, to the tune of 40 million acres of National Forest land and an additional 150 million acres of public land. 190 million acres needing thinned to avoid catastrophic wilfires is just mind boggling and makes one wonder how we have gotten to this point.


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## slowp (Jul 25, 2011)

I apologize. I did the non-local thing myself! Good luck on getting a salvage going.


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## madhatte (Jul 25, 2011)

MikeinAZ said:


> acres needing thinned to avoid catastrophic wilfires is just mind boggling and makes one wonder how we have gotten to this point.



What's ironic about this alarming trend is that the FS itself abandoned its "10 AM Policy" years ago because they were beginning to understand the importance of fire in a functioning ecosystem. The "enviros" are setting back both science and policy by 40 years, and for what? More destruction, more waste? Way to go guys! Way to save the world!

(Note: as a trained biologist, a paid forestry technician and a seasonal wildland firefighter, I am familiar with the history of both sides of this argument, and am personally in favor of what works long-term -- which most decidedly does NOT mean a hand-s off approach to forest management)


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## slowp (Jul 25, 2011)

The big hurdle is profit and budget. The enviros want thinning, but only the unmerch stuff and want it funded. (by whom is something else) The traditional way is to make a sale in an area and also allow the cutting of mature trees in order to pay for the non-merch thinning. In the eyes of eviros, and the younger urban generation, this is logging, and it is bad. Gotta get over that because the way budgets are being cut, funding by selling merch timber is going to be the only way to fund thinning.

But if a market for this small stuff happened, that takes care of that. 

The FS is politically gun shy. Even here, the chief enviro group has pretty much dictated how things have been. They threaten to sue unless....

A new Forest Supervisor was hired, and some other positions have changed, and we shall see if this continues. However, I heard yesterday that the timber target (the amount of timber a forest is supposed to offer for sale in a year) was reduced to 22 million board feet. This is on a forest that could easily offer much more volume up for sale. We can grow nice trees here.


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## MikeinAZ (Jul 25, 2011)

madhatte,

I hung my gear up Dec. 31, 2007 after 14 years on a volunteer wildland crew. 12 others went with me. We decided that if the trend continued (and it has) that we were not going to sacrifice our lives needlessly. I know a few of those the were at the Wallow Fire. And the behavior they described to me was absolutley terrifying.

slowp,

Actuall the small stuff has value. I just signed a tentative contract with Snowflake Power to supply biomass to them to the tune of 30,000+ tons a year. The uses are out there, just have to beat the bushes to find them. I also found out that the OSB plant may still go in. Couple of hundred jobs there not including the people in the woods harvesting. The wood pellet plant over in New Mexico has also been diffing around to find a supply of biomass. Looks like things may start picking up around here.

All I have to say to the enviro's is if they want to have a hands off approach then they need to get off their butt's and go fight these fires. Let them look a firestorm straight in the face and they will change their tune very fast. Especially when they are getting burnt while still a quarter mile away from the flames and trying to run away in an 80 mile an hour wind from the fire pulling air.


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## madhatte (Jul 25, 2011)

@slowp: 22MMbf for the whole country? Hell, we're shooting for 9 on our paltry little 100,000 acres!

@MikeinAZ: I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in.


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## MikeinAZ (Jul 25, 2011)

Just for giggles, here is a link to a comparison to the 1910 Woolsey inventory and a survey done on 185-87 by the USFS on the forests here in the Southwest. It is in basal area, but that is just square feet of tree diameter at breast height per acre. According to this report, we weren't such bad stewards after all. If they want to return the forests to old growth, let's do it. I'll even put a new chain on my saw.

http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Research/changed_southwestern_forests.htm

At bottom of page. Pay special attention to the 12-21 inch classes.


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## Gologit (Jul 26, 2011)

slowp said:


> However, I heard yesterday that the timber target (the amount of timber a forest is supposed to offer for sale in a year) was reduced to 22 million board feet.


 
Any good timber in that or is it mostly junk?


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## slowp (Jul 26, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Any good timber in that or is it mostly junk?


 
If, they defy the eviros, and shoot for some of the older timber--80 yrs old, there will be some good stuff. I did a lot of recon and there is good and crappy stuff. Last I heard, two gutsy, recently hired on guys were pushing for 2 to 5 acre "openings" in some of the crappier units. The units are crappy because they are close to being understocked, due to root rot. If there are no little clearcuts, the volume per acre will be sad.

One recently retired guy--not me, was totally against any openings and going into the older stands. He HAD a lot of power on decisions made. 

It was so bad, that whenever I got into a nice stand that was on the map to check out, I wondered what would be the problem with it, it was too nice to be in a sale--the way things went with the planners. But, each sale seems to get more contract requirements added on. Last I saw, silt fencing was going to be required around each landing. Now, how do you skid or yard logs over a silt fence, without damaging the silt fence each time? 

Retirement is good.


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## madhatte (Jul 26, 2011)

slowp said:


> totally against any openings and going into the older stands.


Sow how does he expect to get any regen in DF that way, or is he just gonna wait out Stem Exclusion for the next hundred years or so? I deliberately create openings to ensure that there's trees to cut later.


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## 8433jeff (Jul 26, 2011)

I admire and respect you guys for battling with the idiots, both the gov'ment and the enviros. We don't need to cut everything down, but forest management isn't putting up a fence and hanging "NO TRESPASSING" signs on it. As was said, this was predicted, and sadly will probably be forgotten. To not no try to save as much of the timber would be mindless, good to see some of it getting to a mill.
One question, in the pictures they were dumping straw for erosion control and moisture preservation, I presume. Any seed with that, and that will stay without anchoring it? Seems some or a lot of it would wash with the next hard rain. And how far are we trucking the straw? I suppose that doesn't matter since its needed.
There was a mess of some grass hay that headed south to the gulf from up here, supposed to have been the stuff for soaking up oil.


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## Gologit (Jul 27, 2011)

slowp said:


> Last I saw, silt fencing was going to be required around each landing. Now, how do you skid or yard logs over a silt fence, without damaging the silt fence each time?


 
Easy. The logger hires extra people...at his own expense...to repair the silt fence. Hell, everyone knows loggers are rich and can afford all the labor costs. 

We just got through shot-rocking two low water crossings that don't even have water running across them. Just in case, ya know. But what the hell...it's only money.


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## slowp (Jul 28, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Easy. The logger hires extra people...at his own expense...to repair the silt fence. Hell, everyone knows loggers are rich and can afford all the labor costs.



Maybe my second career? I went to a 3 day class on "erosion control." I do recall them saying they had very good results from spreading straw on a problem area, and then running sheep on it. The sheep worked the straw into the soil with their sharp little hoofies and also applied fertilizer at the same time. 

Shhhhhh. If the wrong people see this, they'll be putting that method into contracts too. Them Montana guys might could have a problem.


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## floyd (Jul 29, 2011)

Maybe he has seen the windthrow that occurs with that prescription?


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## slowp (Jul 29, 2011)

floyd said:


> Maybe he has seen the windthrow that occurs with that prescription?



Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The trees are all supposed to blow over if you thin them too. Not so here. You take a chance but then isn't growing timber one big chance? What with fires, mudslides, lawsuits etc. it is always risky.


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## floyd (Jul 30, 2011)

Yup. Maybe "there" the forester has seen windthrow.


Thanks for sharing the risks of woodland ownership.


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