# anyone know what knots to use on amsteel blue?



## lone wolf (Mar 25, 2010)

just got it and was wondering what knots can be used or should it only be used with braided eyes.


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## Grace Tree (Mar 25, 2010)

Spliced eye. I think it's 12 strand class 2. Here's the Samson link:
Samson Splicing
I'd follow the splicing instructions exactly; specifically the lock. It's easy stuff to splice but it's slippery stuff. I spliced an eye wrong and after using it for a couple months it slipped the splice. It was just a leftover scrap that I used for a pull handle but it did make me more careful. I made a few 3/8" slings and have used them for a couple years with no problems. 
Phil


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## pdqdl (Mar 25, 2010)

You can talk about splicing until you are blue in the face; sometimes you need a knot. Like when you are 30' from your stuck tractor, your amsteel is 150' long, and that would put you in the mud on the other side of the road.

Knots in amsteel tend to choke down and squeeze the knot in half, or so I've been told. DON'T try a bowline on a heavy load. I'm only repeating stories, as I have never managed to hurt my 150' amsteel rope

If you are rigging a rope to something like a truck you might try this, it worked well for me a couple of times. It's guaranteed to come apart when you need to untie it, and I suspect that it is as strong as any other knot. Anthony Book of Knots lists it as the right knot to attach a rope to a vehicle for severe loading. Sadly, I can't find my ABOK, and I don't remember the name.







The load would be applied to the single line hanging down to the floor, and the lowest half-hitch takes the majority of the load. I always stretch the knot out real good by hand before I step on the gas. So far, it has never failed me, but I don't use it that often. I tied this in some old arborplex, because I didn't want to hike out and get my amsteel.

This knot is really nothing more than passing the rope around some structure like the tow ball on your truck, then pulling a nice long loop through a marl or "half-hitch". Do it a few more times, and then stretch it out. Step on the gas!

That first half hitch will be choking down awful tight though...I'd test it's strength a little before you over load it on something critical.

If tying to a tree: Timberhitch holding a marl is almost infallible. It never slips and it never binds down.

I would avoid mid-line knots entirely.


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## moray (Mar 25, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Knots in amsteel tend to choke down and squeeze the knot in half...



I believe this is a general property of hollow braids. I have tested Tenex knots to failure and even the best knots failed below 50% of nominal rope strength, and some failed as low as 30%. The same knots in a double braid did far better.

An Amsteel-Blue girth hitch that I tested to failure failed more or less as pdqdl describes--the "bridge" of the hitch squeezed so hard on the highly-tensioned legs of the hitch that it cut them in two!

If you absolutely have to tie a knot in a hollow braid, derate the rope to 30% of nominal. For Amsteel, I would go lower still.


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## lone wolf (Mar 25, 2010)

moray said:


> I believe this is a general property of hollow braids. I have tested Tenex knots to failure and even the best knots failed below 50% of nominal rope strength, and some failed as low as 30%. The same knots in a double braid did far better.
> 
> An Amsteel-Blue girth hitch that I tested to failure failed more or less as pdqdl describes--the "bridge" of the hitch squeezed so hard on the highly-tensioned legs of the hitch that it cut them in two!
> 
> If you absolutely have to tie a knot in a hollow braid, derate the rope to 30% of nominal. For Amsteel, I would go lower still.



sounds like i better get an eye spliced huh?


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## pdqdl (Mar 26, 2010)

What are you doing with it? Making slings, using it as bull rope, winch line, or what...?

I use my 3/8 amsteel rope as a tow rope for machines stuck where there is poor access for anything closer, or as an extension for the winch line on my little crane/chipper truck. It doubles nicely for a light duty speedline too, because it is so light and easy to handle.

I don't recommend it for any application that uses a lot of friction, like natural crotch rigging, or heavy speedlines without pulleys to slide down the rope. It melts very easily. 

I tried climbing a tree DbRT with it once: it was terrible. Impossibly slick, the friction knot was not holding well. Furthermore, just my puny 230lbs and the associated friction was causing some fraying on the rope. I never did that again.

When using it on a shorter tow that cannot use all 150', I either double it, or tie it off using the knot I showed above.


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2010)

moray said:


> I believe this is a general property of hollow braids. I have tested Tenex knots to failure and even the best knots failed below 50% of nominal rope strength, and some failed as low as 30%. The same knots in a double braid did far better.
> 
> An Amsteel-Blue girth hitch that I tested to failure failed more or less as pdqdl describes--the "bridge" of the hitch squeezed so hard on the highly-tensioned legs of the hitch that it cut them in two!
> 
> If you absolutely have to tie a knot in a hollow braid, derate the rope to 30% of nominal. For Amsteel, I would go lower still.



Sorry to get off topic but I would be interested to know if the timber hitch and cow hitch failed at below 50% on the Tenex Moray. I had a timber hitch fail on my Tenex sling onetime is why I ask. I mostly use double braid now but still use the Tenex sling occasionally. That will become even less if it is going to fail at 50%.


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## pdqdl (Mar 26, 2010)

I always follow Moray's splicing stuff pretty closely. He does good work. I suspect that his setup does not really allow for load testing either cow hitch or timber hitch, since he uses hydraulics to pull between two fixed points.

Load testing a timber hitch would mean either setting up hydraulics to push away from a fixed point (very difficult to control) or that he would have to mount a spar of some sort in the middle of his setup. When the rope broke, he would be confronted with how to stop the parts from flying that were still attached to the tensioned rope.

Essentially, he would have built a hydraulically powered slingshot if he mounted a log in the middle of his setup. That test would probably be pretty dangerous.


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## lone wolf (Mar 26, 2010)

tree md said:


> Sorry to get off topic but I would be interested to know if the timber hitch and cow hitch failed at below 50% on the Tenex Moray. I had a timber hitch fail on my Tenex sling onetime is why I ask. I mostly use double braid now but still use the Tenex sling occasionally. That will become even less if it is going to fail at 50%.



did you back it up with a half hitch?


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## lone wolf (Mar 26, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> What are you doing with it? Making slings, using it as bull rope, winch line, or what...?
> 
> I use my 3/8 amsteel rope as a tow rope for machines stuck where there is poor access for anything closer, or as an extension for the winch line on my little crane/chipper truck. It doubles nicely for a light duty speedline too, because it is so light and easy to handle.
> 
> ...


chipper winch.


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> did you back it up with a half hitch?



Yes I did but to be fair I was using it as a redirect and pulling a stump over with a truck when it failed. I had the block pulled out 90 degrees from the tree so it was not being pulled straight up and down when it failed. Plus, I could have set it in a better spot on the tree.

I had a large stump, about 4' tall and 60" that I had missed the cut on towards the center. After trying to pound wedges into the kerf and having two men try to rock it and break it over I decided to put my block on a nearby tree for a redirect and pull it over with the truck. I tied a timber hitch and backed it up with a half hitch. When I tried to pull it over with the truck the timber hitch came out of the Tenex sling.


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## moray (Mar 26, 2010)

tree md said:


> Sorry to get off topic but I would be interested to know if the timber hitch and cow hitch failed at below 50% on the Tenex Moray. I had a timber hitch fail on my Tenex sling onetime is why I ask. I mostly use double braid now but still use the Tenex sling occasionally. That will become even less if it is going to fail at 50%.



No, I haven't tested either of those, pretty much for the reasons so colorfully laid out by pdqdl. I really do have to worry about big things flying.

That 50% figure represents a knotted eye experiencing a straight pull. Could you not splice up a whoopie or loopie sling? That would be the best use for Tenex and should give great performance. I really don't think Tenex was designed to be used in the same way as solid ropes, though with sufficient derating it should be OK.


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## lone wolf (Mar 26, 2010)

interesting stuff indeed whats the best way to go?


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2010)

moray said:


> No, I haven't tested either of those, pretty much for the reasons so colorfully laid out by pdqdl. I really do have to worry about big things flying.
> 
> That 50% figure represents a knotted eye experiencing a straight pull. Could you not splice up a whoopie or loopie sling? That would be the best use for Tenex and should give great performance. I really don't think Tenex was designed to be used in the same way as solid ropes, though with sufficient derating it should be OK.



Yes, Tenex loopie sling is what I was referring to. All of my heavy rigging is done with double braid bull line.


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## lone wolf (Mar 26, 2010)

tree md said:


> Yes, Tenex loopie sling is what I was referring to. All of my heavy rigging is done with double braid bull line.



what do you recommend?


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## tree md (Mar 26, 2010)

I have been using 3/4 Tenex loopie sling for about 4 years now. I think it's a 12' sling, can't remember. In all honesty, it has worked pretty well for me. I have blocked wood up to 28-30 inches with it. As big as I can safety get it around. Never had a problem with it failing or the knot coming out as long as I was using it like I was supposed to, blocking wood with the block hanging straight up and down on the tree. Pulling the knot out with the truck did give me pause though. I have been using a double braid sling that I have because it seems to hold knots better and absorbs shock better as well.

I have to block some serious wood here in the next few days (36" pieces of Oak). I was going to use the Tenex sling as I feel that it would handle wood that size as long as it's set properly but the sling is too short to go around the tree and tie a safe hitch. I was just going to use my 3/4 bull line but went ahead and ordered an 18' double braid eye sling to do the job since the weather bought me some time on it. Tenex works OK but I like the way Double braid stretches a little to absorb shock plus it holds arborist knots great.


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## moray (Mar 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> ...I have been using a double braid sling that I have because it seems to hold knots better and absorbs shock better as well.
> 
> ...I was going to use the Tenex sling as I feel that it would handle wood that size as long as it's set properly but the sling is too short to go around the tree and tie a safe hitch...



I am confused. What are these knots and hitches you are tying with a loopie sling?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 27, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> just got it and was wondering what knots can be used or should it only be used with braided eyes.



I've been told that it is a pretty slippery rope, so I would not use a timber hitch. Stilson with a double half-hitch backup would make me comfortable.


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## tree md (Mar 27, 2010)

moray said:


> I am confused. What are these knots and hitches you are tying with a loopie sling?



I'm actually the one that was confused. I am using an eye sling, not an adjustable loopie sling. It's just a regular eye sling that I use with a cow hitch, preferably, to attach my block when I have enough line to tie it. When I don't I use a timber hitch.


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## pdqdl (Mar 27, 2010)

Sorry, been away from the thread a while. To return to an earlier theme:

I think the tenex is more likely to fail than an equal strength double braid in a shock loading because the tenex has less elasticity. Given a knot or other sharp bend, the outer fibers will even shear sooner on a slow pull, given the reduced ability to stretch.

There is an interesting video on YouTube that shows an elastic rope holding a shock load (repeatedly) and an Amsteel rope failing the same test on the first run, despite being a much stronger rope.

Lone wolf: that amsteel is perfect for the winch line, but put some splices on it. You are very unlikely to ever shock load that winch very much, anyway.


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## lone wolf (Mar 27, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Sorry, been away from the thread a while. To return to an earlier theme:
> 
> I think the tenex is more likely to fail than an equal strength double braid in a shock loading because the tenex has less elasticity. Given a knot or other sharp bend, the outer fibers will even shear sooner on a slow pull, given the reduced ability to stretch.
> 
> ...


good to know about the amsteel so you like double braid better what is the best sling to get?link for the rope test would be awesome.


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## pdqdl (Mar 27, 2010)

Actually, I don't hardly ever use a sling. My lowering block is handled by a 3/4" tenex spliced eye rope (I don't use a loopie or whoopie sling), and I rig my port-a-wrap using similar ropes. I'm afraid I am mostly old school, but I am working on getting up to speed.

I wasn't really stating that I like double braid better than tenex, although now that you put it that way, I probably do. I hadn't thought about it before you mentioned it. Until I have to splice it, I like stable braid for almost everything (in general) than almost anything else. 

Something to consider: you can't make loopie or whoopie slings with double braid rope, hence their popularity in Tenex. You CAN take a nice 3/4 double braid with an eye splice and rig any equipment to the tree that you can with a sling. It's not as simple or fast, but it's just as secure.

One exception: Amsteel is fabulous strong and really great for slow loads and light handling. I suppose some folks don't know that it is so light that it floats. Naturally, that makes it the best material in the world for towing any boat, big or small. 



I would like to say that I do lots of tree work, but I have had such a paucity of tree work that I can't justify owning a chipper right now, much less all that other tree stuff I own. We finally got $1300 worth of tree trimming to do next week. I am so out of practice I'll probably fall out of a tree.


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## pdqdl (Mar 27, 2010)

*Amsteel research*

Here is a comparison article to amsteel vs wire rope in logging applications: http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/synthropeusewinch.pdf


Perhaps I was remembering this test, that uses different rope than Amsteel:

Here is a good test from Yale Cordage that shows the difference that using a dynamic line can make. Unfortunately, they spoil the test (in my humble opinion) by TYING A KNOT in the tested ropes. The video clearly shows yale's rope breaking where the knot squeezes it off. By the way: Ultrex is Yale's version of Amsteel Blue. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they used a spliced eye.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDIo-WZkSaM

By the way, the tail end of this video shows a really good view of a tree climber getting hammered by a rope breaking under a load yanked short. The guy gets face butted by the branch he was on, then tumbles back to the trunk upside down from his lifeline, bouncing all the way.


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## moray (Mar 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> ...Unfortunately, they spoil the test (in my humble opinion) by TYING A KNOT in the tested ropes...



They also spoil the whole thing by sloppily confusing, over and over, lbs (force) and ft-lbs (energy). The video clearly wasn't put together by one of their engineers.

The engineers do it right on the Yale website where, if you look at the specifications page for one of their ropes, you are likely to see a beautiful color chart. The link shows Yalex, their equivalent of Samson's Tenex, and the chart shows how the rope absorbs energy. 

This whole business of dynamic load will continue to be mumbo-jumbo to many people until they get a grip on these energy absorption charts. The chart for Vectrus, one of their Vectran ropes, looks radically different. These two charts completely explain why the stronger rope in the video failed while the weaker rope survived.


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## lone wolf (Mar 28, 2010)

in the rope video the climber that got knocked about would have been f***ed if he hit his head or the rope broke .


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## lone wolf (Mar 28, 2010)

so before i get some new slings what say you guys on doublebraid v tenex?what do you think is the most handy size to get that is strong but not bulky?


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## tree md (Mar 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Here is a comparison article to amsteel vs wire rope in logging applications: http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/synthropeusewinch.pdf
> 
> 
> Perhaps I was remembering this test, that uses different rope than Amsteel:
> ...



And that my friends is why I always wear my brain bucket on removals now.

Jeez, this guy didn't even have a lanyard on. They should use that footage for training videos on what not to do.

I'd like to know what he was using for bull rope. A bull rope should not fail under those conditions, even being shock loaded.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> And that my friends is why I always wear my brain bucket on removals now.
> 
> Jeez, this guy didn't even have a lanyard on. They should use that footage for training videos on what not to do.
> 
> I'd like to know what he was using for bull rope. A bull rope should not fail under those conditions, even being shock loaded.



I took a good ride on a gum that had to be stopped no room for letting it run. I learned from that day forward take it smaller if necessary my feet went completely above my head I some how managed to hold the spar away from my face but when my lanyard pulled me back to the spar I wished I were wearing a cup. I hurt for several days over that.


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## tree md (Mar 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I took a good ride on a gum that had to be stopped no room for letting it run. I learned from that day forward take it smaller if necessary my feet went completely above my head I some how managed to hold the spar away from my face but when my lanyard pulled me back to the spar I wished I were wearing a cup. I hurt for several days over that.



I have taken a couple really hard rides. One was on a pine that I roped a huge top out of. Normally I would only take about 1/3 out in a healthy pine. I took more than that, a little less than half. Stupid I know but I was young. It was before I used a block. I was lowering from a couple of stubs of limbs I had cut. I too was able to protect my face but my body took a beating. I also took a serious ride in a Cottonwood top that my help didn't let run like I told them too. Rag dolled me too but again just a few bruises.

I agree, if there is any question take it smaller.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> I have taken a couple really hard rides. One was on a pine that I roped a huge top out of. Normally I would only take about 1/3 out in a healthy pine. I took more than that, a little less than half. Stupid I know but I was young. It was before I used a block. I was lowering from a couple of stubs of limbs I had cut. I too was able to protect my face but my body took a beating. I also took a serious ride in a Cottonwood top that my help didn't let run like I told them too. Rag dolled me too but again just a few bruises.
> 
> I agree, if there is any question take it smaller.



In my defense lol, that gum had a hollow decayed area and I was skeerd to go higher lol I have had some rides too. It is why I don't like to rig big stuff to the spar and would rather wafer and throw, I don't feel my old bones are as tough as they used to be lol.


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## tree md (Mar 28, 2010)

I'd rather use a crane! 

Had a Silver maple that I had to get high enough in to make a cut and clear the phase 3 line. I felt confident I could do this tree without a crane so I gave the guy a pretty good price on the tree. Well, as I was going up, the leader I was on had rotten spots in it that I could pull out with my hand. There was still plenty of solid wood though and I felt pretty comfortable. The tree was around 75-80'. I needed to get up to 65-70 feet to be able to drop the top of the leader and clear the power line. At 50-60' I came to a large knot hole that I could stick my whole hand into. I needed to get 8-10' above that to make my cut. The wood was prolly 8" where I found the knot hole. I had no idea of how far up the hollow went. I came down grabbing a chunk of rotten wood on my way down, took it to the HO and told him I was going to need a crane to do the job. If I could have tied into a leader that wouldn't have swung me towards the lines I might have still risked it but there was no safe TIP. Luckily the HO understood and told me to go ahead and price two other hazard trees that we were planning to do in the future while I had the crane on the job.


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## lone wolf (Mar 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> I'd rather use a crane!
> 
> Had a Silver maple that I had to get high enough in to make a cut and clear the phase 3 line. I felt confident I could do this tree without a crane so I gave the guy a pretty good price on the tree. Well, as I was going up, the leader I was on had rotten spots in it that I could pull out with my hand. There was still plenty of solid wood though and I felt pretty comfortable. The tree was around 75-80'. I needed to get up to 65-70 feet to be able to drop the top of the leader and clear the power line. At 50-60' I came to a large knot hole that I could stick my whole hand into. I needed to get 8-10' above that to make my cut. The wood was prolly 8" where I found the knot hole. I had no idea of how far up the hollow went. I came down grabbing a chunk of rotten wood on my way down, took it to the HO and told him I was going to need a crane to do the job. If I could have tied into a leader that wouldn't have swung me towards the lines I might have still risked it but there was no safe TIP. Luckily the HO understood and told me to go ahead and price two other hazard trees that we were planning to do in the future while I had the crane on the job.


a rare smart homeowner you are lucky.


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## tree md (Mar 28, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> a rare smart homeowner you are lucky.



Oh he had done his homework. Everyone else had told him all three trees would have to come out with a crane. I was the only fool willing to attempt the one tree without a crane to try and save him some money. We came in at 10.5 on that job. I earned his trust and his business.


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## lone wolf (Mar 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> Oh he had done his homework. Everyone else had told him all three trees would have to come out with a crane. I was the only fool willing to attempt the one tree without a crane to try and save him some money. We came in at 10.5 on that job. I earned his trust and his business.



I have found that if you listen to the homeowner things go wrong do it your way or tell them to get lost I seen what wires can do to a person .now back to ropes anyone know of a double braided rope that keeps its color the only rope I have seen keep color is new england hi vee and sampson blue climbing line all my d.b. ropes lose color turn grey and are hard to tell apart when using 2 or 3 at one time?


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## tree md (Mar 28, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> I have found that if you listen to the homeowner things go wrong do it your way or tell them to get lost I seen what wires can do to a person .now back to ropes anyone know of a double braided rope that keeps its color the only rope I have seen keep color is new england hi vee and sampson blue climbing line all my d.b. ropes lose color turn grey and are hard to tell apart when using 2 or 3 at one time?



I use Samson stable braid, 3/4. Mine only starts to loose it's color on the ends where I tie knots and use it for rigging. Usually by the time the color starts fading too bad I trim it to make sure I am not using a weakened part of the rope. I work both ends and trim off the working section after it has been in service long enough to serve it's purpose.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 28, 2010)

I let an HO talk me into dumping chip down a hill in her back yard. The slope was not a huge problem for the old IH 4800 we had, but not on turf. She said that they take delivery of sand for the private beach every spring and the dump trucks have no problems. What she did not know is that the driveway was on the opposite side of the yard then where she told me to go  

Oh, and she was the neighbor, not the client....And i was running ChemLawn's pruning in the region... we had to get a special wrecker with an extra long cable, drive that to the edge of the slope... Then there were all the ruts from dragging the truck up hill...:bang:


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## ropensaddle (Mar 28, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I let an HO talk me into dumping chip down a hill in her back yard. The slope was not a huge problem for the old IH 4800 we had, but not on turf. She said that they take delivery of sand for the private beach every spring and the dump trucks have no problems. What she did not know is that the driveway was on the opposite side of the yard then where she told me to go
> 
> Oh, and she was the neighbor, not the client....And i was running ChemLawn's pruning in the region... we had to get a special wrecker with an extra long cable, drive that to the edge of the slope... Then there were all the ruts from dragging the truck up hill...:bang:



That stinks I have a probe that I plunge into the ground if it goes into the ground with ease I stay out. I will come back with plywood if it is cost efective but climb if it is just a little pruning job.


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## pdqdl (Mar 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> so before i get some new slings what say you guys on doublebraid v tenex?what do you think is the most handy size to get that is strong but not bulky?



You still haven't told us how you plan on using the slings.

Holding a block for catching a load: Big tenex is fine, or maybe smaller double-braid rope, double tied if you prefer. The real load is taken by the bull rope. If you have a stretchy bull rope and it is running up to the block and then back down to a friction device, you may have 40-80 feet of rope that can elongate. At that point, the elongation built into the sling becomes unimportant, because the shock load is being absorbed more by the bull rope.

Run a steel cable for a bull rope (or amsteel), and you will get more shock loading on the sling.

Eye Slings for rigging to a crane lift: I would feel perfectly comfortable with 3/8" amsteel. At almost 20k breaking strength, you certainly have a huge working load with a doubled up sling. That 3/8 amsteel is pretty light on a climbers belt, and nobody with any sense will be shock loading the crane.

Light slings for attaching to speedlines: almost anything with sufficient strength will do, because the speedline will be absorbing most of the shock. They have a built in "let it run" ability not found in most rigging.

I would say that any rigging sling for heavy drops on a block should be twice as strong as the bull rope. That, or doubled up to produce the same effect.


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> You still haven't told us how you plan on using the slings.
> 
> Holding a block for catching a load: Big tenex is fine, or maybe smaller double-braid rope, double tied if you prefer. The real load is taken by the bull rope. If you have a stretchy bull rope and it is running up to the block and then back down to a friction device, you may have 40-80 feet of rope that can elongate. At that point, the elongation built into the sling becomes unimportant, because the shock load is being absorbed more by the bull rope.
> 
> ...



for false crotch rigging what is better tenex or double braid and what is better on the ground for redirecting with a block tyed to a tree and pulling say with a truck?


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## tree MDS (Mar 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> I have been using 3/4 Tenex loopie sling for about 4 years now. I think it's a 12' sling, can't remember. In all honesty, it has worked pretty well for me. I have blocked wood up to 28-30 inches with it. As big as I can safety get it around. Never had a problem with it failing or the knot coming out as long as I was using it like I was supposed to, blocking wood with the block hanging straight up and down on the tree. Pulling the knot out with the truck did give me pause though. I have been using a double braid sling that I have because it seems to hold knots better and absorbs shock better as well.
> 
> I have to block some serious wood here in the next few days (36" pieces of Oak). I was going to use the Tenex sling as I feel that it would handle wood that size as long as it's set properly but the sling is too short to go around the tree and tie a safe hitch. I was just going to use my 3/4 bull line but went ahead and ordered an 18' double braid eye sling to do the job since the weather bought me some time on it. Tenex works OK but I like the way Double braid stretches a little to absorb shock plus it holds arborist knots great.



I've been using 18' DB slings for some years now. I also have a 20' tenex for attaching the large steel porty, and I bought a 25' tenex for really freakishly big trunks (I have only used it once or twice, its a bit much, but nice to have). 

The next slings I buy will be 18' tenex. Its stronger, and I like working with it much better.


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> I've been using 18' DB slings for some years now. I also have a 20' tenex for attaching the large steel porty, and I bought a 25' tenex for really freakishly big trunks (I have only used it once or twice, its a bit much, but nice to have).
> 
> The next slings I buy will be 18' tenex. Its stronger, and I like working with it much better.



one vote for tenex


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## pdqdl (Mar 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> for false crotch rigging what is better tenex or double braid and what is better on the ground for redirecting with a block tyed to a tree and pulling say with a truck?



Almost nothing beats a whoopie or loopie sling for convenience up in a tree (despite the fact that I don't own one), and the same would be true for groundmen on a redirect. Unless you are going to splice your own, *that means tenex in 3/4".*

If splicing your own, that still means you would need a hollow braid rope like tenex. I am looking into the Yalex referenced above by Moray. It has some very impressive energy absorbing characteristics, and I could make my own slings. Tenex has low stretch, Yalex has lots of stretch.

The different adjustable slings are neat to use, but unless you have a bunch of them, you will get into too many situations where the only one you have is the wrong size for the job. So you need plenty of them. I am too cheap for that option, and I don't have enough tree work to justify the investment.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Mar 29, 2010)

Amsteel is good for when you have to use a long high tensile sling. It's biggest down-point is the wear characteristic. The tensile makes it worth the price, but you need a wear-guard on any rope on rope contact.

For common rig-point usage my preference is a Tenex loopie, really Tenex for everything except for very long but-ties for a porty or a redirect. Then i will use an old double-braid rigging line in a Stillson. Timber hitches are good for one or two rigs, because the need constant checking for creep in between load cycles.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> Almost nothing beats a whoopie or loopie sling for convenience up in a tree (despite the fact that I don't own one), and the same would be true for groundmen on a redirect. Unless you are going to splice your own, *that means tenex in 3/4".*
> 
> If splicing your own, that still means you would need a hollow braid rope like tenex. I am looking into the Yalex referenced above by Moray. It has some very impressive energy absorbing characteristics, and I could make my own slings. Tenex has low stretch, Yalex has lots of stretch.
> 
> The different adjustable slings are neat to use, but unless you have a bunch of them, you will get into too many situations where the only one you have is the wrong size for the job. So you need plenty of them. I am too cheap for that option, and I don't have enough tree work to justify the investment.



Yup me too, I use my 3/8 truckers chain on the ground to fasten porty if the spar is bigger than my 3/4 loopie or my 3/4 dead eye because it works and I already have it


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup me too, I use my 3/8 truckers chain on the ground to fasten porty if the spar is bigger than my 3/4 loopie or my 3/4 dead eye because it works and I already have it



yalex huh i will look that up now.cant find yalex with braided eyes anyone know of a place?


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## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> yalex huh i will look that up now.



I use tenex I was saying me too am cheap lol:monkey:
PS: I did order 6 biners 11 loop runners and a heavy duty 4"pulley and 17"fanno hand saw though just yesterday!


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> I use tenex I was saying me too am cheap lol:monkey:
> PS: I did order 6 biners 11 loop runners and a heavy duty 4"pulley and 17"fanno hand saw though just yesterday!



are you really just cheap or is it the work isnt like it used to be.what lengh loop runners you buy are they for speedline work?what biners they have a way of disappearing of your truck don't they.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> are you really just cheap or is it the work isnt like it used to be.what lengh loop runners you buy are they for speedline work?what biners they have a way of disappearing of your truck don't they.



Yup speed line got 4 25" up to 48" so will have several lengths then the hard trap biners 5 of the 12kn and one 24kn whatever kn means lol.


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## tree MDS (Mar 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yup speed line got 4 25" up to 48" so will have several lengths then the hard trap biners 5 of the 12kn and one 24kn whatever kn means lol.



Blakes was showing me how he buys the webbing in bulk and ties his own loop runners - whatever length he wants. Made sense to me.


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Blakes was showing me how he buys the webbing in bulk and ties his own loop runners - whatever length he wants. Made sense to me.



that would cut the cost in half i guess?


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## tree md (Mar 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Blakes was showing me how he buys the webbing in bulk and ties his own loop runners - whatever length he wants. Made sense to me.



I am thinking about doing the exact same thing. You can buy it by the spool from Wesspur for .55 cents a foot for 1" tubular nylon. That would be a hell of a lot cheaper than buying premade slings. 

The TCC shows you how to tie a knot and make endless loop runners. Beer knot or Water knot or something like that. Not sure, I've never made one before. On Rope shows you how to make them by sewing them.

It would be very handy to have a spool of the stuff around and be able to make whatever size you need.


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## ropensaddle (Mar 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> I am thinking about doing the exact same thing. You can buy it by the spool from Wesspur for .55 cents a foot for 1" tubular nylon. That would be a hell of a lot cheaper than buying premade slings.
> 
> The TCC shows you how to tie a knot and make endless loop runners. Beer knot or Water knot or something like that. Not sure, I've never made one before. On Rope shows you how to make them by sewing them.
> 
> It would be very handy to have a spool of the stuff around and be able to make whatever size you need.



Yeah I suppose could have saved a dollar or so but these should do what I need of them and will be neat with little or no clutter!


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Yeah I suppose could have saved a dollar or so but these should do what I need of them and will be neat with little or no clutter!



speedline is fun


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## pdqdl (Mar 29, 2010)

48" loop runners at baileys are $8.95. At 55 cents per foot, you will pay $4.40 in materials. So there is a $4.55 per strap premium for getting it made for you [plus shipping!].

There is another consideration: all the loops from Baileys come in a different color for each length, making it easy to grab what you need and to do a quick visual inventory of what you have with you. Don't underestimate how important it is to easily grab the right loop when you want it.

When I am up in the tree, I clip one carabiner to each loop, and then carry all of them clipped together on my figure-8 or daisy chained down from that. So all the 3' loops are in one string, ready to use with a carabiner on them, and each of the other lengths is too.

The figure-8 gets a little crowded, but it does keep everything organized, and you can unclip it and hang the whole mess from 2' loop tied onto a branch or whatever. Plus, the figure-8 is always there if I really needed it in a pinch, too.

If I was going to make my own loops, I would buy some 12-strand rope and splice up some double eye slings. Smoother, stronger, and more reliable than the loops with knots, and the hollow 12-strand rope is real easy to splice. A short sling with two eyes would also be more versatile than a simple closed loop. You could always double it up to make it shorter and stronger, or run it single strength for greater reach.


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## pdqdl (Mar 29, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> yalex huh i will look that up now.cant find yalex with braided eyes anyone know of a place?



http://www.baileysonline.com/search.asp?skw=yalex&PageNo=1&x=0&y=0

At those prices, I would make my own. 
http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/how-to-splice-a-whoopie-sling-with-yalex/4197180652


These guys make slings of many varieties in yalex: http://www.bashlin.com/industrial/slings.htm


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## moray (Mar 29, 2010)

I like closed loops made from 5/16 and 3/8 Tenex. They are cheap, easy to make, and versatile. You can girth one to the stem for a foot loop or hand loop, girth it to a branch for rigging purposes or as a redirect, girth it to something to hang a block or to hang your saw or other crap, and so on. I doubt if there is anything a webbing loop can do that one of these can't do as well or better. I carry a couple with me at all times.


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## lone wolf (Mar 29, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> http://www.baileysonline.com/search.asp?skw=yalex&PageNo=1&x=0&y=0
> 
> At those prices, I would make my own.
> http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/how-to-splice-a-whoopie-sling-with-yalex/4197180652
> ...



looks interesting im going to have to get that.


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## pdqdl (Mar 30, 2010)

I think that if I wanted the "pound for pound" strongest, safest sling for hanging a block or other arborist tool from, I would make it out of polydyne from Yale.

It is double braid construction, which we know know is very tough and durable. It has about the highest strength of any rigging line that I can find, and it has way more "safe" energy absorbing capacity due to it's elasticity. Tenex is stronger, but not nearly as much elongation. It would be nice if all the rope manufacturers would publish their energy absorption figures like Yale does.

You could splice your own dead-eye slings, but there is no way you will make any whoopie or loopie slings. I don't know if anyone makes them for resale.


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## RUBE (Apr 3, 2010)

lone wolf said:


> just got it and was wondering what knots can be used or should it only be used with braided eyes.



A midline knot in most of the hollow braids will greatly reduce it strength as it will fail as a result of friction, as reported by others here. My home fix for making a long hunk of Amsteel shorter was taking a 2' piece and splicing a eye with a thimble on this short hunk. Than wherever I need a new point I just splice this into the long line whereever it is needed. Its easier to splice than unsplice but doable.


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