# crane guys



## Toddppm (Oct 23, 2002)

OK I just landed a job to remove some good sized oaks that are accessible by crane, the guy's meeting me in the morning to check em out.
I've never been the climber on a crane job and haven't even worked on one since about 1991? 
My guys have never done one period!
I'm planning on doing the biggest one and the first smaller one to show them but I need some pointers.
On a straight up pick do you guys like to cut straight through or still use a snap cut-cut= part way through then another cut from other side passing the first above it?
A few of these big limbs are hanging way out towards the house(spanking new, maybe $800k!)at an angle, I'm guessing we'll use a balancer type sling spread out high and low? if theres room , do you like to just cut from the bottom up as it's picked up , use a top notch or cut from the top down and let it rip off when cut through?
What else?


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 23, 2002)

Todd,
Crane removals are the one situation where many normal rigging methods are altered. The two most important things to remember are to not shock load the crane (cutting straight through a limb and letting it rip off while swinging wildly from the hook) and to engineer your cuts so you are well clear of the load when the operator starts to move it.
For horozontal limbs I like to tip-tie the lead (so it is butt heavy) and notch for the sky. I make my undercut out from the notch so the butt will not freefall. The operator will need to pick up slightly on the lead as you cut so your saw doesn't get pinched, but DO NOT let him stand the limb up untill you are clear. Once your notch and back-cut are made, you can put your saw away and move away. Give the signal for the crane to remove the piece. It will stand up and then separate once the notch closes and the hinge breaks. Keep in mind that if the notch is too large then the limb may not break free and you will need to finish the cut so the crane can lift the lead. This is dangerous since you will be right there when the butt end comes free, so try not to make your notches too big!

For vertical or near-vertical loads, I also hook high then make overlapping cuts. Make the first cut on the opposite side from where the cable connects to the lead. Second opposing cut should be above the first cut and on the side of the cable connection. This way the crane can lift if your saw gets pinched, and the step will keep the butt from coming back into you. Once your cuts are made, drop down clear of the lead and signal the operator to lift.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 23, 2002)

A new way I learned from Chisholm on making a picked cut is to come in with your backcut parralel to the ground. This forms a shelf for the wood to sit on if there is any problem, like a boom sag from a bit too much weight.


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## Toddppm (Oct 23, 2002)

Sounds good, didn't even think about last cut on the cable side, would have figured that out after pinching the saw I'm sure! Brian what do you mean you make your undercut out from the notch? 
Good idea JPS


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## kf_tree (Oct 23, 2002)

todd
does the crane guy you plan on useing have experiance doing tree work?


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## Toddppm (Oct 23, 2002)

That was my first question! They say they do alot of tree work, I told him upfront we're inexperienced, I don't care if it takes all day as long as it's safe I'll still make $$ Should only take 2 or 3 hours total though.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 23, 2002)

Todd, I was trying to say that I leave a step for the butt to sit on so it doesn't swing down. I typically make my undercut about 2"-3" further out the limb from my notch on a typical 10"-12" lead, depending on the elasticity of the wood. 

As long as you have that step to catch the butt, you can make the notch kinda small (narrow). If the lead breaks off before completely vertical, it will still sit on the step untill the crane picks it completely clear.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 23, 2002)

I just removed two large trees with a crane yesterday, and the whole time I was thinking how easy it was. There is nothing hard about it, except you should know the hand signals, that takes about 1 minute to learn.
One thing I did, was to have the operator set the ball right over the tree and tell me how much he could lift in that position, to give me a refrerence. I also had a log chart to give me a rough idea of how much things weigh, it was way off.
The biggest problem is getting spoiled and losing the real skills that you can develop without a crane.
My biggest piece was 6800 lbs.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 23, 2002)

Another good trick that I've done for years on crane removals- I bring an extra loop runner or lanyard up with me so I can hang my saw while I run out a lead to set the cable. No reason to bring that extra 10 lbs out the limb when you don't need it. A handsaw can be handy to cut something out of your way if necessary, but I usually try to just bend the small stuff over so I'm not dropping a bunch of stuff around the base of the tree.

Job setup requirements- Crane placement is primary. Try to place the rotation of the crane so that he can reach all the other leads around your tie-in lead. Your tie-in lead should be the last one cut if at all possible. 
Try to set up the chipper so that it is blowing away from the tree and the crane. The chipping area doesn't have to be right next to the tree, just within easy reach of the crane. 

Unless you have room for your wood truck AND chipping operations at the same time, try to leave most of the wood standing until the brush is gone. That way the ground crew isn't tripping over a pile of logs and you don't have to sit and wait while logs are moved out of the way by the crane.

Plan all your picks with the crane operator before starting. Visualize every pick so you both know what order they will be taken. Some changes may occur later, but it's good to have a basic plan so you both are on the same page. Know where your tie-in is going to be and that your lifeline is not in conflict with the crane cable.


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## Toddppm (Oct 23, 2002)

Yeah Mike I'm hoping it's going to be easy and spoil us 
I'm going to make sure the crane operator goes over every single piece before we start wether he likes it or not, I'd better request a patient guy huh!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 23, 2002)

Good point Brian, we park the wood truck within reach and put the wood right in the truck with the crane, no need to bring the bobcat.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 23, 2002)

Forgot the jpg.


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## lync (Oct 23, 2002)

*Different approach*

On most crane jobs i've worked on my life line is run thru a pulley located a foot down from the tip of the boom. The crane operator
keeps the ball pulled up all the way so that its above me, picks me up with the boom and places me in the tree. I manuver into position using my climbing line and moving the boom to the best high tie in point. Set the sling(s) 1 or 2 depending on horizontal or vertical leaders. Tie in with my lanyard when im ready to cut.
After cut is made, and crane is holding the load, I unclip my climbing line (still tied in with lanyard) holding the falling of my climbing line while the operator booms/cables the load down. Ground guys unhook slings and send them back up on the ball. When boom is above me reclip in on the climbing line and signal crane operator to next pick position, sling the next piece and so on.


corey


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## kf_tree (Oct 23, 2002)

lync, are you tied in at the boom while your making the cut? did i read that right?


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 23, 2002)

Lync, 
Doing it that way, why would you need a climber? Seems like a tremendous waste of crane time if the crane is doing double duty moving the 'climber' (cutter?) around AND moving the limbs too. 

Until recently it was illegal for cranes to lift people unless they were in an approved life support basket. Many crane companies and/or operators still refuse to do it. With my local crane outfit, their policy forbids it. But most of the operators familiar with tree work will give you a lift into the tree.

I like getting a lift into the tree to save myself an ascent, but then I tie in and move around the tree without assistance from the crane. I'd feel lazy sitting like a lump watching the ground crew busting butt and waiting for the crane to take me out the limb because I was too lazy to climb out there myself. I could see doing it that way if I had a broken leg or something.


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## lync (Oct 23, 2002)

I'm sure there's more than 1 way to skin a cat. This meathod works, and there is no wasted movement. The boom is usually directly above the pick, which is probably your best tie in point to get the slings on. The operator cables up with the load to take out the slack, and you can decend or move laterally to the point at which you want to make your next cut. By holding the falling end of your line, you can easily retrieve it and clip in when the boom is above you. I know that you cant get into position for the next pick, until the boom is up, but the high tie in point makes moving around the tree a snap. Kf i'm tied in until after the cut
and unclip before the load is lowered.


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## tjk (Oct 24, 2002)

165, I ran a crane removal crew for 4 years, {we own our own crane} our system is about identical as yours. We found that tying into the tree at the last brush cut was the most productive way to go. Our cutting techniques are also very simalar. There is no right or wrong to do any type of tree work, we just found this system to be the safest {zero lost time injuries} and the most productive}. We are going on our 10 th. year of having our own crane.


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## kf_tree (Oct 24, 2002)

lync, staying tied in till after the cut is just not comfortable to me. cranes are great , but when some thing goes wrong it goes wrong big time. 2 different tree svc i know,,,,,,one ripped the boom right off the truck. another collapsed the boom right across a roof. i've seen out riggers come off the ground.... your putting alot of faith in the operator working that way. i always prefered to trust myself when ever possible. i'd tust being tied into a live oak over a mechanical crane with an operator any day.

we always did crane work as treeclimber 165 described or out of a bucket. lync, i'm not saying nah nah nah your way is wrong. but i would not be comfortable working that way. what ever works for you is the way to go i guess. the guys that did crane work with me were a tree svc that owned their own crane. they worked in an area with alot of big tree's and did nothing but big removals every day. they always rode the ball up and tied into the tree. if it was a limb that was a real pain to get out on a second guy would ride up to set the sling, then lower to the ground while the guy in the tree would make the cut. the same when useing the bucket. if the bucket would not reach to set the sling a second guy would ride up and the bucket guy would make the cut. but no one was tied to the crane while the cut was being made.


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## Treeman14 (Oct 24, 2002)

I'm pretty sure the Z states that the climber AND the load shall not be tied in at the same time. Its either one or the other. Even if its not the law, common sense would prevent me from tying into the boom while its loaded. We're not trying to be smug, we just don't want you to be the subject of the next tree climber killed thread.


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## lync (Oct 24, 2002)

Anything said is with good intent, i'm the last one who wants to get hurt or worse. If the crane had a major failure, i'd be in deep
****, . The other methods being discussed seem to be safe and efficent. The way I described i feel is safe, even more so if the tree being removed is not sound. The operator is one of the best i,ve ever seen, I trust him. Todd was looking for methods used in removal, this way is just another option.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 24, 2002)

Current ANSI states that the tree worker shall not be attached to the laded crane unless the responible person deams it to be the only safe way to work.

The tree worker shall not ride the hook but must be attached to the boom or cable above the ball. Hendrickson TCOC did a demo with a neat twist. The used a clevis on top of the ballwith a friction save running through a biner that was run throught he clevis locking pin. The climber attaches to the FS to rid the cable up to attache slings and then runs down, reties the climbinmg line to the tree for the cut.


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## Froggy (Oct 24, 2002)

*Reply*

I'll say this be careful. Take a few min. to look and study the tree with your crain guy. Make sure both of you are see the same picture. Then use your head and make cuts according to the piece. It should got well and be pretty quick.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 24, 2002)

Brian and I seem to be talking about the same method, one thing I would add is to make the knoitch small and wide.

Small so to make the shelf wider

wide so that the face does not close befor the pick is complete


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

Sorry, JPS, but you have it wrong. If the notch is too wide and the face does not close, the crane may not be able to pull the lead free. You want a narrower notch. Optimally, the face should close when the lead gets to about 75*-80* so it breaks free using leverage instead of making the crane operator jerk on it with the boom. The other scenario doing it your way is that the climber needs to go back and cut the lead free, placing him on harm's way. I cut my notches about 1/3 of the way through the lead so there is plenty of leverage on the face of the notch to break the limb free.


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## Toddppm (Oct 24, 2002)

You mean like this? (in Pic) 1rst one , so it catches on the lip? 
1/3 sounds deep but I guess with tension on it with the crane it's fine. 
I looked them over today with the crane rep. , man they look small but it will save us half a day of roping and loading so it will be well worth it.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

Todd, 
Kinda like this.


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## Toddppm (Oct 24, 2002)




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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

Here it is showing the cable placement. I try to make the notch break off the lead and let the crane lift it off the step.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

I'm no artist, but I played around with Paint a little and made this. You showed a somewhat horozontal limb, I showed a somewhat vertical lead and also a vertical trunk. The less the lead will raise before being lifted, the smaller the notch. For anything within 10*-15* of vertical, you can just make opposing cuts.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

(forgot the pic) :blush:


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 24, 2002)

I have not doen crane work, but have been told that you don't want the ceane to break the peice off. Once the load is vertical, you can finis the cut if needed.

With your last pic, if I were using a winch, I would make the back cut parallel to the ground to increase the area of the shelf.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

JPS- 
When the lead does not break free and you need to go back and cut it free, neither you nor the crane operator can be 100% positive of which way the butt will swing. I do not want my head or body in the path of a swinging 1000+lb chunk of wood. I have had to cut a few leads free and it is not a peaceful or relaxing situation. I prefer having the lead break free as it is being raised to vertical and it sails off smoothly without endangering me or shock loading the crane.

This is the 3rd time you have suggested a wider notch and the 3rd time I have contradicted you. I may not be the horticultural expert you are, but I know crane removals. They can be extremely easy or they can be scary as he11. I have done it both ways and I prefer easy.


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## kf_tree (Oct 24, 2002)

one accident that i know of happened because the crane broke the piece off. 

the few crane jobs i've been on when cutting the stick we always cut the stick straight across and through. slipping a wedge or 2 in so the saw does not bind.

the guys i know were doing a rental working with a climber they never worked with before. they were taking a big piece of the stick. the climber said the cut was through, the operator yelled it wasn't, the climber yelled it was. the operator went to boom it up , then the piece snapped off (the cut was not through). when it came off it caused the boom to bounce. the operator tried to dump the cable but he could not release it fast enough. it was a rear mount crane and the were working off the back side. the front out riggers came up the cab of the truck smashed onto the lower limbs of an oak it was parked next to. the boom broke right off the truck and layed between the 2 house's.

it just seems to me you would want a smoothe transition from tree to boom. no jerking or dropping, its the same as rope work. any drop just multiplies the weight.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 24, 2002)

Here is how the lead is positioned after it breaks free as the crane lifts it. The climber should be safely clear of the lead at this point, NOT finishing the cut!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 24, 2002)

Calm down Brian, it is called discussion. 

I'm stating my understaning and the reason behind it. My information comes from people I have a great deal of respect for.

By this I'm not trying to infer a lack of respect for you, just to give a basis for my accepting this information.


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## r/ctree (Oct 24, 2002)

If they broke a crane boom they had the crane over loaded shock load want break a crane boom by itself! The combination of inexperience caused that accident. I have been around cranes all of my life and they preform when they are worked not jerked.


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## Toddppm (Oct 24, 2002)

I'll be using a top notch and letting the operator snap it off unless he wants to be the climber and I run the crane! On a limb going out and up at an angle what other choice do you have? It's not like roping and the piece is going down away from you, it's going up and swinging towards you or over your head isn't it? I don't want to be near it when it comes off. A straight up pick won't bother me.


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## kf_tree (Oct 24, 2002)

r/ctree 
"I have been around cranes all of my life and they preform when they are worked not jerked."

did you mean to write perform? they perform when worked not jerked seems to contradict your first statement. they perform when worked not jerked seems to imply the "jerking" or bounce had some thing to do with the accident.

i'm not doubting you or the operators lack of judgement at the time. i'm just curious how big a roll the "bounce" played in the accident. if he was trying to raise the piece and it suddenly tore free causeing the crane to bounce, then trying to dump the cable and all the slack caught up with it. wouldn't that multiply an otherwise safe load into an over loaded piece? (did that make sense?)


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Oct 25, 2002)

> When the lead does not break free and you need to go back and cut it free, neither you nor the crane operator can be 100% positive of which way the butt will swing. I do not want my head or body in the path of a swinging 1000+lb chunk of wood. I have had to cut a few leads free and it is not a peaceful or relaxing situation. I prefer having the lead break free as it is being raised to vertical and it sails off smoothly without endangering me or shock loading the crane.



Just because you do a lot of something, doesn't mean you are good at it, Performance Tree exemplifies this.
The climber should know where the but is going to swing, or he should set it up differently so he does know which way it will swing.
The size of the notch doesn't seem critical, in this case, because you are basicly doing a bypass cut. If you are not by passing, the crane will need more presure to "break" it off. 
If the you were to use a narrow notch though, it could cause the limb to come free at a low angle(assuming you are tip tieing it like your picture). If this happens, you have more dynamic loading. 
I would opt for a second strap and lift the limb off horizontally or butt tie it and lower it just like in normal rigging.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 25, 2002)

Mike said-"If the you were to use a narrow notch though, it could cause the limb to come free at a low angle(assuming you are tip tieing it like your picture). If this happens, you have more dynamic loading. "

Obviously none of you are understanding me. As the crane liftsa the lead, the cut breaks free but the butt of the lead still sits on the step created by the placement of the undercut. There is absolutely NO SHOCK LOADING!. The crane simply stands the lead up and lifts it away in one smooth motion. 

Mike said-"The climber should know where the but is going to swing, or he should set it up differently so he does know which way it will swing."

I was referring to when the lead is stood up straight and you need to finish cutting it clear (Because you accidentally made the notch too big). Even if the crane is holding the lead straight up, weighting of the lead can make the butt swing 2'-3' in any direction. In this scenario, the crane operator usually pulls the limb away from the climber, but I still would rather be 5' away behind the trunk when the lead breaks free.


I'm not going to read or respond on this thread any more, since almost none of you have any idea what I'm trying to describe and think my methods are bad even though you have little or no crane experience. I have done over 150 crane removals safely and was taught by a man who did over 300 safely. Every crane operator I've used was impressed and pleased with how smooth and safe my method is. I've never had an accident or damage claim on a crane removal. 
My only critics are people who have never seen me work! So my description must be lacking.


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## kf_tree (Oct 25, 2002)

climber 165

just because you and mike get into a lttle tiff every now and then. why lump every one together with that " you guys " statement? 

it was ok for you to slam lync for not working up to "your" standards. but no one is allowed to question you, or dig a little deeper to your methods.

dude lighten up. isn't the purpose of a discusion board to discuss? when you were a kid , did you get mad and take your ball and go home if you didn't like the game?


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## TREETX (Oct 25, 2002)

No, I doubt he took his ball and went home. He was probably like me, just punched the other kid square in the nose.

I've enjoyed reading this thread and would hate to see it end with squabbling.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 25, 2002)

Much of what I do with the GRCS is light crane work acutualy. It is just that I have a static boom, and work under 3k#. Much of the mechanics are the same.

Even then having only theoretical knowledge in a subject should not preclude me from the discussion. There is a big differeance between watching something happen and discussing it with experianced persons.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Oct 25, 2002)

I've used The Winch to assist the climber to go back into the tree after lunch. Me and othere people. It acts as a belay and takes a little weight off the. Used it to pic a climber up a few times when we were doing partial removals and did not want to have to put gaffs on in the tree, way to slow though for regualr use.


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## lync (Oct 25, 2002)

DDM , A lot depends on the boom angle. The more upright the boom, the more the crane can safely lift, but don't over load it. I'd rather do the job in 20 picks instead of 15 if that will increase the safety factor for the crew. Try to get the crane as close to the work as it can be without sacrificeing safety, and the crane being in the way of the work area. A smooth transition of the load from where it was cut, onto the crane taking the load is what your going for. Before you put the slings on see where the cable is 
in relation to the tip of the boom, you may ask the operator to boom up/down or rotate left/right so that the load drifts away from you slightly when you cut it loose.

Corey


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## Toddppm (Oct 25, 2002)

Where did DDM jump into this? 
Thanks everybody!
We'll be doing the job monday morning , I'll try to get some pics.


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## Toddppm (Oct 28, 2002)

Well, got the crane part of the job out of the way It was pretty fun, everything went good but took longer than I thought it would. Had a steady drizzle most of the day but wasn't too bad. The top on the biggest tree flipped when it snapped off, kinda freaked me out but I was hiding behind and underneath some limbs, guy said he knew it was going to happen and lifted it as it did but didn't tell me that All 3 of us climbers got to do at least one to try it out. Awesome to let him load the trucks too, what a backsaver! Now if I could teach my guys how to take a pic.... http://community.webshots.com/album/53152242tkwHeB
Hopefully it will stop raining so we can finish the trimming and small removals tomorrow.


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## treeclimber165 (Oct 28, 2002)

Glad it went well for you, Todd. It's good to get that one bad cut out of the way on your first crane job. That way you have an idea what can happen when it goes wrong. I have had one or two bad cuts over the years and I'm glad that I was working with an excellent operator when it happened. When TWO people screw up, it can be rough. 
Anyway, sounds like this won't be your last crane job.


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## Treeman14 (Oct 29, 2002)

Kudos on the crane job. Glad it went well for you.


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## MasterBlaster (Jun 10, 2004)

Whoa! What a thread! What's all this talk about notching, and breaking, and the climber not finishing the cut? I might cut a narrow notch in a stem pick when I'm making my ALAP cut, but thats about it. I just cut straight thru on the smaller stuff and make use of the hinge. Bigger wood I'll make a kerf cut at the SAME LEVEL as my finishing cut. I rarely have the need for a snap cut, OR a notch. JMO.


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## BigJohn (Jun 10, 2004)

I wonder where Mark learned or got that idea about leaving the shelf? I'll be moving to NJ maybe before the year is out. I'll be at the TCC stiring up his KoolAid with Roachy. :jester:


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