# Climbing saddles



## mikecross23 (Jan 22, 2003)

I've finally decided that my saddle sucks. Well, it doesn't suck, it's just not right for me. It's a weaver w/ 6" back pad and sit strap. Even when unloaded the saddle is heavy so when I cram it full of tools, I'm like an anchor! I also am not fond of the attachment points. Sit strap D's and two side D's. I have to use a spreader snap to avoid hip pinch and that thing weighs a ton too. I've started looking at two new saddles to try but want feed back first. The master II is the first one I want to try, and the arbormaster pro series on pg 9 of the Sherrill catalog. I think I want the individual leg straps. They both seem to have a lot of attachment points and loops for hanging tools. Any positive or negative feedback would be appreciated.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 22, 2003)

Many saddles look comfortable but do not fit the way you would expect. I almost bought a couple different saddles including Buckingham, Petzl Navaho and others based on pictures. But luckily I found local places where I could try them on and I am grateful I didn't buy them.
Start calling different suppliers within driving distance and find out who has what in stock. Then grab a rope and go try them on, including hanging from a rope in them! They may feel ok standing in the showroom but you won't know for sure until you set a rope and clip in.
I'm still looking for someone who has a Butterfly that I can try on. I will not buy one unless I try it first.


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## heartland (Jan 22, 2003)

I totally agree with TC165: many saddles look good in a picture...then end up sucking wind. I had a really good opportunity to try on and actually climb in many different types of saddles when I was at Arbor Master training. Some saddles looked really great laying there on the ground, but after strapping it on and putting some weight in it: totally different story. Some saddles, no matter how many adjustments they have, just don't fit certain people. Anyway, here is my 2 pennies on the saddles you mentioned (cause I tried em both):

Master II
The Master II is part of the "ArborMaster Series" of saddles. I tried on a few of these, including the Master II. My complaint here is that the waist belt and bottom parts of the saddle are an integrated unit: that is, you cannot separate one from the other. Also, each one has its own limited number of attachment points (I'm talking lifeline attachments here, not tool/accesory). Further, the attachment points are not always located in the place you want them. Of all the saddles in the ArborMaster Series, I found the Master II the most appealing...but even it has limited attachment points (compare the Master II to the Pro Series w/ Pro Master Bottom and you'll see the difference).

.... then I tried on the Pro Series saddles.....

Pro Series 
As alluded to above, one of the things I really liked about these saddles was the fact that that the "belt" is separate from the "bottom": they are not integrated. This appealed to me because I was uncertain as to which type of bottom I wanted to get: legstraps vs. bosun seat. There are two other characteristics of these saddles that are nice too:
a. lots of different lifeline attachment points
b. lots of different tool/accessory attachment points

I ended up getting the bosun seat and like it so far. I wanted a seat that was comfortable in a sitting position: could not get that from the legstraps.

I've played with various lifeline attachement points too: each distributes weight differently. I can't tell you how many times I've made use of the various attachement points when in precarious climbing situations: it is nice of have lots of choices based on your climbing position - for example, you can connect the lanyard to any of the lifeline attachments via a beaner.

If you find yourself sitting on a branch while in the tree for some reason, the bosun seat can be a little unsteady: that is where the legstraps would be better. Some climbers I know say that footlock is easier with the legstraps too..... but I don't have any probs with footlocking and my bosun seat. If I ever really wanted to switch to the legstraps, it is simply a matter of swapping the bosun out: a 5 minute job and you're ready to go.

The only drawback to the Pro Series saddles is the price: get ready to drop at leat $300. Nevertheless, you get what you pay for.

Find a store that has the both saddles and check em out in person, bearing in mind the things I've mentioned and I think you will see how different the two saddles really are.


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## mikecross23 (Jan 22, 2003)

Thanks for the input fellas. I know someone w/ a master II that I can try on. There is only one store locally that carries any climbing gear and I just found out about it last weekend. Don't know what kind of saddles they might have. Anyone recommend a rolling D. Looks like a rolling D would be great for positioning; bad for getting your elbow pinched! ! !


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## ORclimber (Jan 22, 2003)

1 floating D is good, 2 is better. If you use a split tail system you can walk through your rope with 2 floating D's, comes in handy sometimes. Leg straps allow for more agile climbing instead of pushing your legs/hips together like the saddle you've been using. However, be warned that leg straps have been known to pinch the family jewels if you cross your legs wrong, not something you'd likely do twice.


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## mikecross23 (Jan 22, 2003)

Aaaawwwww, Crikey! ! !  I need those things!


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## Kevin (Jan 22, 2003)

I have the Pro Versatile with small D's which I dislike, I'd rather have large D's.
The D's flop back and were a pain until I used tie wraps to keep them forward.
The HDP rollers will give you liposuction if you aren`t careful.
It's a comfortable saddle to wear.


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## Dan Flinn (Jan 22, 2003)

I started with a saddle with individual leg straps. I'm a big guy and the thing squished me. 10 minutes and I was through - what a waste of money.

The saddle I have now has a board to sit in. Now, I can stay in a tree all day long, if need be. I think it's the Pinnacle model. It has good attachment points, etc.

Dan


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## TREETX (Jan 22, 2003)

My Butterfly has to be one of my best equipment buys. Super comfy. I can only compare it to my old butt strap saddle.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 22, 2003)

Nathan,
Can you mail me your Butterfly saddle for a couple days so I can try it out? I'll send it right back, I promise!!


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## TREETX (Jan 22, 2003)

No problem, the thing only weighs like 3 pounds.

I really like it and it has helped me evolve (as a climber). That may be more of a reflection of the poor quality of my old saddle than the good quality of the new.


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm a huge fan of the Butterfly! The most comfy saddle I've used in over 25 years of climbing. 

Crotch bite is not as much a function of having leg straps as being a funcion of saddle design. Before the Butterfly I used a Blair Ultra Light. that is a really nice saddle and modular too. The Back Jack waist belt gives the best support of any on the US market. The Butterfly is just a little shy of the support that the UL offers.

If a climber spends much of their time sitting on the rope in the saddle then a batten seat saddle might be a good choice. If the climbing style is one where the climber stands and moves to the work leg straps give more freedom of motion.

At the ITCC last summer I'm guessing that about 15-18 of the approx. forty climbers were in Butterfly saddles. Does that mean anything? Does to me.

Tom


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 22, 2003)

Tom,
Do you have any web addresses of any US suppliers for the Komet Butterfly? I'd like to track one down and get more info. I still won't buy it sight-unseen, though. As soon as Nathan mails me his I will be in a better position to make a decision.


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## budroe69moni (Jan 22, 2003)

*floating d's....*

there's been alot of talk about
whether or not to get a saddle 
w/ a floating d or not. my saddle 
sports a floating d and i don't see
how someone could climb w/out one.
it's awesome how no matter how you
twist and turn, your center of gravity
is always at your hips. great balance.
good luck bro,
budroe


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## mikecross23 (Jan 22, 2003)

*Floating D seems versatile . . .*

Floating D does seem the way to go. Limb walking is kind of a pain when you have to walk somewhat sideways or shimy out and the rope is anchored to the front and only the front. Besides some of the slidding D ring saddles have extra positioning loops sewn in. Do those extra loops do a good job for clipping in to instead of clipping in to the roller?


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## monkeypuzzle (Jan 22, 2003)

Only if I can try your Pantin Mike.  Will have the photos by Friday,I hope.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 22, 2003)

Many here may disagree with me, but I do not like the rolling D. Besides the above mentioned liposuction possibilities, I use my lifeline as a 'third leg' when working a tree. I am constantly leaning against the tension on my lifeline for balance. If my lifeline were attached to a moving pivot point, it would be much harder to depend on it for balance. I can limbwalk much easier having my third leg anchored securely to a non-moving attachment point on my saddle. With a roller I could turn the wrong way and it would roll possibly causing me to lose my balance. 

But that's just what I'm comfortable with. :angel:


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 23, 2003)

Fresco sells the Butterfly:

http://www.frescoarborist.com/


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## Kevin (Jan 23, 2003)

*Re: Floating D seems versatile . . .*



> _Originally posted by mikecross23 _
> * Besides some of the slidding D ring saddles have extra positioning loops sewn in. Do those extra loops do a good job for clipping in to instead of clipping in to the roller? *



Yes, they do.
You can get a wide spread in the ropes.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 23, 2003)

I Like Blairs saddles too, aside form the butterfly they are the only ones realy designed by climbers, though arbormaster did help adapt the new ling of B'ham.

If any of you little guys are looking for a full body, check out the BriDan Blair has. i liked it for utility,, but my high center of gravity made it impractical to use.


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## Kevin (Jan 23, 2003)

I talked to Don @ TCI and he has a harness that adapts to a regular linemans belt.
I may get to use large D's after all.


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## Bradley (Jan 24, 2003)

With the B'ham Versatile, you can have it both ways at once. Clip in to 7 diff. loops, or use your hdp rollers. This can change many times over the course of one climb especially if doublecrotching. If I'm on gaffs on an angled lateral and tied in behind me the line comes right to my hip over my flipline for perfect balance. Show me how to do that with stationary attachments.


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## mikecross23 (Jan 24, 2003)

For those of you that use the hdp roller system, don't you ever have a problem w/ losing balance while limb walking? 

For example if you are walking out on a limb and the hdp roller unintentionally slides an inch or two, that could be enough to throw me off balance and send me for a swing. 

Having only used a fixed anchor point, the sliding D seems kind of scary to me. I don't want to rule out the possibility of something that I might really like, so please let me hear your comments.


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## rahtreelimbs (Jan 29, 2003)

I had a friend who tried the Butterfly. He wound up returning it. After numerous adjustments he couldn't keep this saddle from pulling really tight in the crotch area. Was he adjusting something wrong?


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## lync (Jan 29, 2003)

*ordered a butterfly*

I've been getting my nuts smashed for the last 5 years climbing in an original buckingham master saddle. i guess I've grown used to it. Honestly it hardly ever happens but when it does you know it down to your toes. Just ordered a komet butterfly from fresco,
I'll see if its a nut cracker or not, plus I want to try a sliding d ring saddle . Too many times I'm fighting the saddle and trying to turn
my upper body to make a cut. I 'll let you guys know how it turns out. Otherwise you'll see it on e-bay!

Corey


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## Stumper (Jan 29, 2003)

Mike, I switched over to a sliding D saddle a few years ago. They get promoted for the increased mobility but I am, frankly, unimpressed. The difference isn't that great. It is possible to position your self somewhat differently with the sliding D but your concerns about limbwalking are partially valid. Mostly it is a matter of getting used to the different characteristics but I never have been as comfortable limb walking with the slider. They can pinch your belly. 
Sliding Ds may be perfect for other climbers but personally I am not looking to buy another.


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## mikecross23 (Jan 29, 2003)

Lync, Let me hear it. I'm taking my time 'cause I want to pick the right one. Need the Jewels! 

Stumper, I've been looking at the Arbormaster Pro Versatile. It has options to clip into I think it is 7 sewn loops or use the 
roller(s). I just want to know if it's comfy for me. The closest Vermeer/Sherrill dealer is 2 hrs away. I think monkeypuzzle and I are gonna make a trip in the next week or two.  

Thanks for the input!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 29, 2003)

You can tweek the tegstraps on teh b'fly by putting some quicklinks in the connection on the front of you thigh.

Maybe someone here has the mod already and can show a picture. Or email Toney Sakket for a pic.


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## TREETX (Jan 30, 2003)

I love my stock bfly - thanks for the help from here.

I learned quick to adjust the leg straps tight but make sure you don't strap in anything other than your legs!!! You will know real fast when you put weight on the saddle.

I don't like the little elastic straps. They are really small and flimsy.

We have a saying about Texas - everything here will stick you, sting you, or bite you. Trees are no exception. I have had those straps snag a handful of times.


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## lync (Feb 2, 2003)

*caught a butterfly*

Butterfly saddle was delivered a few days ago, frankly it seems a little lightweight ( as far a durabilty and construction.. I took a non-working climb up a 40 ft maple in my back yard. The strap that the beaners slide on seems very light weight. It is a 1" wide nylon strap tripled over and stitched. I was hoping it would be as heavy as say a buckingham friction saver strap. The rest of webbing is about an 1.5 inches wide, and very lightweight. I hope it holds up. On a positive note the backpad is nice and wide and firm, the quick release buckles are fast on and off. 
The hip rings are bigger then the minis on buckinghan, but a little smaller that the old style ones. No stress on the jewels.

Anybody replaced the sliding strap yet? Any ideas would be welcome. The original strap is not going to last!!!

Corey


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## Ryan Willock (Feb 4, 2003)

i found the ProMaster for $239 w/leg straps from www.commercialcutters.com The saddle is in their mail order catalogue, doesn't seem as though they have it listed online.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 4, 2003)

Thanks for the link Ryan! I ordered a catalog.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 4, 2003)

Thanks for the input Dan. Brian sure is making his way all around the east coast isn't he. Crazy fool! I had a great time climbing w/ him and monkeypuzzle. Learned a lot too! 

Maybe I can figure out where to try on a butterfly. I'm still taking my time shopping for a saddle. I need to deny my usual impulsive buying habbits on this one!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 4, 2003)

I know a number of guys who have been on a b-fly for 2-3 years.

The front strap is one of the firs things people will modify. For some it is too short, or too long. others dont like is flat webbing. Most will cut it off and put in a rope. I've seen a few guys with two ropes.

Tom had a metal bar on a swivle for a while.

I think Fresco should have a part of their website shoing all the different ways guys have modifed their B-fly


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## lhampton (Feb 4, 2003)

I don't have any trouble with the yellow strap. After trying a few differnt ways to clip into it, I settled on Kong HMS' Biners. The large uniform shape seems to work/wear well. I had a little trouble with the leg straps loosening, but once I had it set the way I like it, a little electrical tape behind the buckles help stop the creeping, and I don't have the extra strap length snaking out (I can't bring myself to cut into something I paid that much for, even if it's just to shorten up a too long strap. Maybe part of why I haven't modified mine).

The extra mobility of the sliding d hasn't made a noticible difference in my climbing, but my back sure is pleased. Not near as much twist and strain put into it.

If I had to pick something to complain about with the Butterfly, it would be that the two side d's fold in and lay flat against the strap. Because of their design, they don't swing free like the ones I was used to.

I should also say that I don't climb but a fraction as much as a lot of you guys so things like equipment wear and productivity will differ from what you would expect to see.

If I had to buy a saddle today, I'd make the same choice. Komet Butterfly.

Louie Hampton


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 4, 2003)

My yellow strap just plain wore out, took about 8 months. The rest of the saddle is like new. I tied a piece of Ultra-tech to each ring with a double fisherman's knot, which allowed for easy adjusting to the perfect length, and the problem was solved.

The d rings do tend to fold back, seems like every time I go to use one, it's in the back position. Still better than the floppy ones, IMO. I am thinking about useing some elastic to keep them in the forward position, so when it is knocked back, it would pop back forward. Anyone already do this?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 4, 2003)

I heard jamming some electric tape around the bar next to the straps will keep them from folding flat. Think soemone put a tiewrap in there too.


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## Kevin (Feb 4, 2003)

I use tie wraps to keep from searching for the D.
The red lines in the attachment indicate the ties.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 9, 2003)

I finally bought a new saddle. It's the Arbormaster Pro Versatile from Sherrill. It has the option of using floating D's or just clipping in to the top of the roller strap. I preordered it w/ leg straps instead of the bosun seat. Did some more play climbing this weekend and like it. I didn't feel too comfortable on the sliding D, but the sewn loop attachments feel good to me. I'll play w/ the sliding D some more and it should get more familiar to me to feel the anchor roll. 

My leg straps do seem to cramp my masculinity. Would loosening the straps help keep them on the back of my thigh instead of riding up?


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## Kevin (Feb 9, 2003)

Maybe the black nylon seat straps at the back are too tight?


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## monkeypuzzle (Feb 9, 2003)

I have found that boxer shorts are not for climbing. The whitey tighties help keep your package safe and snugg. Once you get the leg straps to your liking you will be all set.

The straps at the back are left loose on my rig.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by monkeypuzzle _
> *The straps at the back are left loose on my rig. *



Yeah man, I noticed that your leg straps hang pretty loose. I guess I could wear my padded mountain bike shorts instead of my boxers and loosen the legstraps up a few inches.


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 10, 2003)

Mike just likes the way his leg straps frame out his 'package'. Chicks dig it too.


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## mikecross23 (Feb 10, 2003)




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## Kevin (Feb 15, 2003)

I wasn't real impressed with the Buckingham rep at TCI, his mind seemed to be everywhere but on his products.
I asked about the floppy D's on the pro saddle and he said it wasn't a problem for arbos because they clipped in as opposed to clipping out on the D's.
Is "clipping inwards" the norm here for most of you?


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## treeclimber165 (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kevin _
> *I wasn't real impressed with the Buckingham rep at TCI, his mind seemed to be everywhere but on his products.
> I asked about the floppy D's on the pro saddle and he said it wasn't a problem for arbos because they clipped in as opposed to clipping out on the D's.
> Is "clipping inwards" the norm here for most of you? *


I clip in whatever direction my clip is facing. I hate the floppy D rings with only one layer of fabric securing them. For the price they get, it's a farce. My $88 KK saddle has 2 layers of fabric and a steel flap riveted down to hold the D rings. They ain't goin' nowhere.
Just another reason why I will not buy a Buckingham saddle. If their company rep has that kind of attitude then I will use a KK until I find something better.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 15, 2003)

I love those replys 

My responce would be that it is a problem for me, that is why I'm bringing it up.

I hate those things, especialy when I'm wearing a jacket that is not long enough to go under the saddle. I'm always groping for the darned things.

other people like them because they are out of the way. They do not do broad enough focus studies, they talk to a few climbers and then say that is all of arboriculture. Look at the diversity of harness for the rock world, and what do we got?


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## Kevin (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn _
> * and what do we got? *









We got you babe!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2003)

Cabin fever gettin you Kev?


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## Kevin (Feb 16, 2003)

You can't go outside without frosting your tropicals!


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 16, 2003)

I was out looking for my toes the other day after doing 4-6 medium ash. I could not remember where I lost them...


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## mikecross23 (Feb 17, 2003)

*I LIKE IT!*

I put a lot of time in my new saddle this weekend. I pruned and cleaned out the deadwood in a huge live oak this weekend. I spent 6 1/2 hours in the tree on Saturday and about an hour on Sunday before the rain sent me home. The saddle is exactly what they call it, "Versatile." I love when doulbe crotching, I have all those connection options. While doing ascents and easy limb walks, I clipped in to the sewn loops. When trying to get the tips, I either double crotched or redirected and used the sliding D to allow me the extra reach and stability of being able to roll my body on it's side. I was having trouble getting all the adjustments just right, but after the long climb Saturday I got a better idea and made some more changes that night. It felt a lot better on Sunday! Thanks for all the help arboristsite members!  

-Mike-


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