# Volunteer?



## slowp (Jul 9, 2013)

Here's a link to pictures of blowdown to saw up, by hand, in the wilderness. Don't know if I'll be healed up by then....my heel spur got irritated after a few years of not bothering...:msp_sad:

Anybody wanna help? This is south of White Pass, WA (Hwy 12). No dates are set yet.
https://plus.google.com/107769768906767969795?cfem=1#107769768906767969795/posts?cfem=1


----------



## Gologit (Jul 9, 2013)

By hand? As in misery whip?


----------



## slowp (Jul 9, 2013)

Gologit said:


> By hand? As in misery whip?



Well, if you wanted to, you could use an axe.


----------



## Gologit (Jul 9, 2013)

No power saws?


----------



## madhatte (Jul 9, 2013)

Wait: so you can carry in those high-tech alloy hiking poles and synthetic sleeping bags and featherlight stoves powered by white gas, but chainsaws are still forbidden in "wilderness" ares? Am I missing something?


----------



## Gologit (Jul 9, 2013)

I'll bet they don't like you to chew, either.

Now, to be totally environmentally correct, even a hand saw would be non native and intrusive to a pure wilderness setting. Damn things are made outta metal, ya know. I'll bet the wooden handles on them are another non native species. Leave 'em in the truck.

No cell phones, no watches, no GPS gadgets. No granola or trail mix, no prepared foods of any kind. Catch a bunny, rub two sticks together for fire, char and eat. No water other than what you can slurp up out of a creek. Toilet paper? Use moss. I think people who worship the wilderness owe it to themselves to experience it in as pure a form as possible.

I think the people involved should resort to using leverage and brute force to move the logs... pointed sticks, sharp rocks, fingernails, stuff like that. And no hardhats or other protective clothing. Loin cloths and bare feet. No gloves. No first aid kits. No communication between workers other than mono syllabic grunting and hand gestures. Chanting would be allowed.

Or...you could just leave the blowdown where it is...and walk _around_ the damn thing.


----------



## madhatte (Jul 9, 2013)

Pretty much summarized my whole half-baked argument. "Wilderness" is a sham.


----------



## slowp (Jul 9, 2013)

madhatte said:


> Pretty much summarized my whole half-baked argument. "Wilderness" is a sham.



I've pointed that out. It didn't go over too well. 

The Park Service, who are the people who wear the Smokey Bear Hats and charge a lot of money for you to go through their gate, do allow chainsaws to be used in THEIR wilderness. 

The Forest Service could, if somebody had (name the correct body parts for the gender used) and would stick by their decision. I believe the Regional Forester, who resides in Portland, OR, has that power. But the parts are missing.


----------



## Gologit (Jul 9, 2013)

slowp said:


> But the parts are missing.



Maybe they're just rusty from lack of use.


----------



## roberte (Jul 9, 2013)

Gologit said:


> I'll bet they don't like you to chew, either.
> 
> Now, to be totally environmentally correct, even a hand saw would be non native and intrusive to a pure wilderness setting. Damn things are made outta metal, ya know. I'll bet the wooden handles on them are another non native species. Leave 'em in the truck.
> 
> ...



What , getting in the suv and driving, burning all that fossil fuel , with the window and the ac on didn't want in on the act.


----------



## slowp (Jul 9, 2013)

I should think that quieter, battery powered saws would be allowed, but nooooooooo. I'm also wondering if a dog pulling a travois would be in violation of The Rules. I could hook up The Used Dog and throw tennis balls down or up the trail. He could pull some of our gear.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jul 9, 2013)

what are the rules on large amounts of nitrated powdery substances and small batteries... one 2" hand drill and a few minutes could save a whole lot of time and misery... plus the pieces are lighter:msp_wink:


----------



## Gologit (Jul 10, 2013)

Det cord.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jul 10, 2013)

Bah Det cord is to clean... if yer gonna blast it might as well make a mess of it, besides there's gonna be a whole pile of volunteers to do the clean up...:wink2:


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 10, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Bah Det cord is to clean... if yer gonna blast it might as well make a mess of it, besides there's gonna be a whole pile of volunteers to do the clean up...:wink2:



Yeah right I bet they're standing in line haha. I'll volunteer for round trip airfare and lodging but the husky's are a coming with me lmao. :monkey:

I always figured better to do it and ask for forgiveness than be a pawn in a knuckle headed scheme!


----------



## imagineero (Jul 10, 2013)

I've watched some of the videos, and while it's a real pain in the ass to go about that sort of work with only hand tools I think it's kind of cool that the tradition is being carried on, even if it is in a fairly contrived sort of way. I'd have a go at it myself if we had anything like that around my parts. Seems like some of those folks got a whole lotta knowledge about the older tools and how to go about it. 

In a somewhat related topic.... when I was in korea I did a lot of climbing and hiking. Seems like there's a temple on the top of every mountain. The monks that work there often have a good sense of humor - they're people of the earth. I was having a chat with a guy one day and I asked him why they don't put the temples in more accessible places - wasn't it losing them business? He said that it was a good thing the temples are at the top of the mountain. The physical difficulty of getting there deters people who who don't really want to go, and the effort you have to make also prepares you for the spiritual work you have to do when you get there.

You could clear those trails real quick with dirt bikes/choppers and chainsaws. But I guess the work of clearing them by hand preserves a whole lot more than the environment. It's also preserving part of the heritage of working the forest. 

Shaun


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 10, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I've watched some of the videos, and while it's a real pain in the ass to go about that sort of work with only hand tools I think it's kind of cool that the tradition is being carried on, even if it is in a fairly contrived sort of way. I'd have a go at it myself if we had anything like that around my parts. Seems like some of those folks got a whole lotta knowledge about the older tools and how to go about it.
> 
> In a somewhat related topic.... when I was in korea I did a lot of climbing and hiking. Seems like there's a temple on the top of every mountain. The monks that work there often have a good sense of humor - they're people of the earth. I was having a chat with a guy one day and I asked him why they don't put the temples in more accessible places - wasn't it losing them business? He said that it was a good thing the temples are at the top of the mountain. The physical difficulty of getting there deters people who who don't really want to go, and the effort you have to make also prepares you for the spiritual work you have to do when you get there.
> 
> ...



I see, well; daylights wasting :monkey:


----------



## slowp (Jul 10, 2013)

imagineero said:


> I've watched some of the videos, and while it's a real pain in the ass to go about that sort of work with only hand tools I think it's kind of cool that the tradition is being carried on, even if it is in a fairly contrived sort of way. I'd have a go at it myself if we had anything like that around my parts. Seems like some of those folks got a whole lotta knowledge about the older tools and how to go about it.
> 
> In a somewhat related topic.... when I was in korea I did a lot of climbing and hiking. Seems like there's a temple on the top of every mountain. The monks that work there often have a good sense of humor - they're people of the earth. I was having a chat with a guy one day and I asked him why they don't put the temples in more accessible places - wasn't it losing them business? He said that it was a good thing the temples are at the top of the mountain. The physical difficulty of getting there deters people who who don't really want to go, and the effort you have to make also prepares you for the spiritual work you have to do when you get there.
> 
> ...



One of the saw instructors has a spud for removing bark. He bought it from a museum somewhere in the east. It was made during the 
1700s. He put a new handle on it, and we were using it. 

Our area is a 2 hour drive on pavement, and then often another hour on not so good roads. We only had 5 people in the saw school. To the north and south, they turn people down for saw training. We're kind of too far from the cities to get "crowds" of volunteers. Our scenery is a little less oooh and ahhh worthy than the north. But our area is also way less crowded.


----------



## imagineero (Jul 10, 2013)

slowp said:


> One of the saw instructors has a spud for removing bark. He bought it from a museum somewhere in the east. It was made during the
> 1700s. He put a new handle on it, and we were using it.



That's pretty cool! When you take a longer view, this current era of technology and fossil fuel powered machinery is pretty much just a flash in the pan. Nobody knows how long it'll last, and while we hope that some amazing discovery will keep it going forever it seems much more likely we'll just guzzle the lot down and end up pretty much back where we were. When that happens, it'll be nice if we have at least a remote trace of the knowledge, skill and understanding that was carefully built up over thousands of years, passed down from one generation to another. God bless those who carry that torch.

Shaun


----------



## slowp (Jul 10, 2013)

The same guy made a underbucker out of airplane grade aluminum. Those are a wheel with grooves in it to hold the saw when you have to come up from the bottom, mounted on a bar with a chisel like tip so you can pound it into the log. The wheel is mounted so it can be moved up and down on the bar. It's pretty neat.


----------



## slowp (Jul 10, 2013)

This is kind of related to the topic. I never thought that my bike was noisy. I guess the deer and elk I've come across must be deaf.

Do Mountain Bike Trails Belong In The Cascade Mountains? | Northwest Public Radio


----------



## WhistlePunk99 (Jul 10, 2013)

*Old skool*

I applaude the concept of trail clearing but it is wilderness and the point is to leave it molested by man right?


----------



## madhatte (Jul 10, 2013)

MAN MOLESTS WILDERNESS: news at eleven


----------



## WhistlePunk99 (Jul 10, 2013)

This wilderness is not to be touched by modern equipment is a bloody joke. If they want to build trails in there then they had better be ADA approved or that is discimination plain and simple.


----------



## Gologit (Jul 10, 2013)

Is HBRN back?


----------



## WhistlePunk99 (Jul 10, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Is HBRN back?



What is this ?


----------



## Gologit (Jul 10, 2013)

WhistlePunk99 said:


> What is this ?



Not much, really. He was a guy who used to post here. He pretended to be a logger and most of what he said were lies. After a very short time everybody quit believing his fantasy stories because real loggers know the difference.

He went away but every once in awhile he shows up with a new user name. We always know it's him because he always writes the same way, parrots the opinions of others, and gradually slips back into his old ways. 

He used to offer advice to newbies on here...bad advice...dangerous advice really, and that is the main reason he's no longer here. He has poor saw skills yet claims to be an expert and argues with the people who try to help him.

If he wants to live in a world of his own creation, that's fine. We just don't want any part of it.

We really hoped he'd get some mental health counselling and maybe get some meds to level him out. Maybe he did. Maybe not.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jul 10, 2013)

I thought the idea behind wilderness was to have a trace of something that was as near as possible to what Ma nature had in mind... while still having trails so us people can enjoy it as well.

The idea being that with no roads, cars, wheels, or engines of any type... it would remain as prestine as possible.

On that thought, far as I'm concerned there is enough wilderness to go around now, and not enough people enjoy it... (and in some places to many people).

Now if the forest service can get back to managing the forests that are not wilderness or part of a park, maybe then we could get some work done, and the forest service would have some money to do the maintenance on the trails themselves...


----------



## Philbert (Jul 10, 2013)

I tried the battery operated chain saw argument here in Minnesota. Said they were quiet and no fumes. Same response. 

Maybe drag saws? They were 1800's, right? ( So was dynamite!)

Philberr


----------



## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Not much, really. He was a guy who used to post here. He pretended to be a logger and most of what he said were lies. After a very short time everybody quit believing his fantasy stories because real loggers know the difference.
> 
> He went away but every once in awhile he shows up with a new user name. We always know it's him because he always writes the same way, parrots the opinions of others, and gradually slips back into his old ways.
> 
> ...



I miss the good old days.


----------



## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2013)

slowp said:


> Here's a link to pictures of blowdown to saw up, by hand, in the wilderness. Don't know if I'll be healed up by then....my heel spur got irritated after a few years of not bothering...:msp_sad:
> 
> Anybody wanna help? This is south of White Pass, WA (Hwy 12). No dates are set yet.
> https://plus.google.com/107769768906767969795?cfem=1#107769768906767969795/posts?cfem=1



I'd use dynamite on the big piles so the pieces don't look like they have been touched by man. Then I would use horses to drag the big pieces away and hand scatter the rest. Later in the year build a series of fires, burn to white ash, NO charcoal, and scatter the ash.


----------



## northmanlogging (Jul 10, 2013)

2dogs said:


> I'd use dynamite on the big piles so the pieces don't look like they have been touched by man. Then I would use horses to drag the big pieces away and hand scatter the rest. Later in the year build a series of fires, burn to white ash, NO charcoal, and scatter the ash.



Are ya this retentive about your laundry too? Sounds like an awful lot of work to clear a trail that well looks like a trail...

I'm with ya on the high explosives though... way more entertaining than a couple of old farts wheezing away on a misery whip, well maybe a little more entertaining...


----------



## 2dogs (Jul 11, 2013)

northmanlogging said:


> Are ya this retentive about your laundry too?



Yes.


----------



## tramp bushler (Jul 11, 2013)

slowp said:


> The same guy made a underbucker out of airplane grade aluminum. Those are a wheel with grooves in it to hold the saw when you have to come up from the bottom, mounted on a bar with a chisel like tip so you can pound it into the log. The wheel is mounted so it can be moved up and down on the bar. It's pretty neat.



Buckers used shorter handled swampers ax . You swung it in lengthwise to the log good and deep and the handle held up the saw. They also used short wide thin tapered steel wedges driven in crosswise to a buck to help keep the log from splitting as it was bucked. . I'de do it but I wouldn't take a class. Nope. I'de supply my own tools. But, take a class. Ooohhhh I'm gonna be mad about just the idea of that for days now. That's the problem with anything t do with the gubmint. It's not just that they want you t come work for free. But they want ya t bend over and spread em first 
. 

 
@#$%&*-+()?/;:'"! … them----------s wouldn't make a pimple on a timber beasts a$$. 
+*&%$#@!)?(+;*'+:%"&$ . 
I bet they wash their tin pants


----------



## tramp bushler (Jul 11, 2013)

Hey, 2 . ; you been fightin fires this season. We have at least 1pretty good size one going up by Chena ( cheena) Hot Springs. 
Do you guys get any chance to travel to other states for fires. Some of the guys I cut r.o.w. with last fall travel down to the Rockies on fires if there aren't any around here.


----------



## 2dogs (Jul 11, 2013)

Nope. My fire fighting work, hazard tree falling, is pretty muchly confined the few counties around me. I am on the statewide list and have received one call this year. That call was a screw-up on calFire's part and I did not even go on the assignment. There is a protocol the CalFire is to follow but they rarely do so. It is about who you know. I really don't mind though because I am busy enough during the summer. The money would be nice though.


----------



## slowp (Jul 11, 2013)

tramp bushler said:


> Buckers used shorter handled swampers ax . You swung it in lengthwise to the log good and deep and the handle held up the saw. They also used short wide thin tapered steel wedges driven in crosswise to a buck to help keep the log from splitting as it was bucked. . I'de do it but I wouldn't take a class. Nope. I'de supply my own tools. But, take a class. Ooohhhh I'm gonna be mad about just the idea of that for days now. That's the problem with anything t do with the gubmint. It's not just that they want you t come work for free. But they want ya t bend over and spread em first
> .
> 
> 
> ...



We used an ax instead of a steel wedge to keep the log from splitting. There's lots of little tricks. And yes, you'd need to have a first aid card, and go to the first training. It's really a good thing...better than having a saw handed to you and the training the words, "don't hurt yourself" like happened to me. That was the gubmint too. I didn't hurt myself but I sure was sore the first week.


----------



## slowp (Jul 11, 2013)

Here's a picture of the underbucker.

View attachment 304070


----------



## Gologit (Jul 11, 2013)

Nice. I'm glad to see the old skills and tools still being used. Keeping all that heritage alive is important. I'm proud of them.

Now, HAND ME MY 660 !!!


----------



## imagineero (Jul 11, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Now, HAND ME MY 660 !!!









Here ya go ;-)


----------



## Gologit (Jul 11, 2013)

imagineero said:


> Here ya go ;-)



:hmm3grin2orange: Hey now, that was a very technical cut I was doing. Years of experience and accumulated skill on display.


----------



## imagineero (Jul 11, 2013)

Looks like topping to me. Just sayin'


----------



## Gologit (Jul 11, 2013)

Truth? When I go out in the yard to prune things my wife hides all the power saws.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 11, 2013)

slowp said:


> We used an ax instead of a steel wedge to keep the log from splitting. There's lots of little tricks. And yes, you'd need to have a first aid card, and go to the first training. It's really a good thing...better than having a saw handed to you and the training the words, "don't hurt yourself" like happened to me. That was the gubmint too. I didn't hurt myself but I sure was sore the first week.



I had a first aid card over 20 years I wish they would quit screwing with the dern compressions cycles crap, confusing is what it is and yes that's gubmint. check call care was last one I went to I'm sure its different now :hmm3grin2orange: Now wait was it 2 breaths 12 compressions or look listen feel, wait omg how bout I fart first see if they wake  4 cycles check pulse oh no the fart killed them :monkey:


----------



## imagineero (Jul 11, 2013)

Gologit said:


> Truth? When I go out in the yard to prune things my wife hides all the power saws.



Well, ya know what they say; when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


----------



## slowp (Jul 11, 2013)

Pat McManus got it right with his story about the Christmas hatchet. 

The gist of the story was that when a kid gets a hatchet in his hands, an urge to chop happens. Table and chair legs show damage, shrubbery gets chopped and then a true mystery happens. The hatchet mysteriously disappears after the kid is asleep in bed.


----------



## ropensaddle (Jul 11, 2013)

slowp said:


> Pat McManus got it right with his story about the Christmas hatchet.
> 
> The gist of the story was that when a kid gets a hatchet in his hands, an urge to chop happens. Table and chair legs show damage, shrubbery gets chopped and then a true mystery happens. The hatchet mysteriously disappears after the kid is asleep in bed.



It's that dern tooth fairy at it again huh lmao?


----------



## Philbert (Jul 11, 2013)

I went to a couple of the local USFS classes for trail volunteers. Learned a lot about the crosscut saws. They are fun when they are sharp, and tuned, and you can use them when you want to.

Picked some up at local flea markets, CL, etc. Needed some more projects . . . . 

Philbert


----------



## slowp (Jul 12, 2013)

We don' get no stinkin' t-shirts!

Yakima Herald Republic | Report shows national trails poorly maintained


----------



## imagineero (Jul 12, 2013)

$2,000 for 5 days food for 50 people?


----------



## Philbert (Jul 12, 2013)

slowp said:


> We don' get no stinkin' t-shirts!



(FYI - They are 't stinking when you receive them . . . After you've been out a few hours . . .)

Philbert


----------



## 2dogs (Jul 12, 2013)

slowp said:


> We don' get no stinkin' t-shirts!
> 
> Yakima Herald Republic | Report shows national trails poorly maintained



Then you all have to work shirtless. And hungry.


----------



## roberte (Jul 12, 2013)

slowp said:


> We don' get no stinkin' t-shirts!
> 
> Yakima Herald Republic | Report shows national trails poorly maintained



Hmmm, under funded and a backlog of maintenance. I think this were I'm supposed to be appalled.


----------



## AT sawyer (Jul 12, 2013)

I dunno, but looking at the pics of those blowdowns, I didn't see any big or challenging trees. Dead softwood like that saws up so fast that a crosscut will rip through it before a chainsawyer can get his chaps clipped on. Only trouble I can see are the sheer number of downed trees, as that can slow you down a bit. Many of those little ones are just good axe practice.

Site appears to be remote. Guessing that you'll spend much more time walking to the BDs than you'll ever spend pulling on a saw.


----------



## Gologit (Jul 12, 2013)

AT sawyer said:


> I dunno, but looking at the pics of those blowdowns, I didn't see any big or challenging trees. Dead softwood like that saws up so fast that a crosscut will rip through it before a chainsawyer can get his chaps clipped on.



Oh? Have you ever cut any wood in this part of the country?


----------



## AT sawyer (Jul 12, 2013)

Nope. Just gauging the size of the logs in proportion to the hiking sticks. Most seemed to be near the ground and straight across the trail. I don't remember any loose root wads or steep slopes. Typical day in the backcountry with saw and axe.


----------



## WhistlePunk99 (Jul 13, 2013)

Had some neighbor kids that volunteered some where in the Washington State,they said it would be easier to let the woods rot,kids do not want to work lol


----------



## roberte (Jul 13, 2013)

WhistlePunk99 said:


> Had some neighbor kids that volunteered some where in the Washington State,they said it would be easier to let the woods rot,kids do not want to work lol



Sorry kids, there is more to work than selecting the A or B button


----------



## floyd (Jul 13, 2013)

It is wilderness to the citiots. There are more of them than us. Putting them in designated wilderness areas keeps them off the roads. I understand they may drive by the worksite however it is usually to far from the trailheads to park near the worksite.

Be glad there is a spot for them in the woods.


----------



## hardpan (Jul 15, 2013)

Citiots. I like that word and will use it. If the goal of this project is education/demonstration of larger hand saws and axes, it is a good thing. If the goal is trail maintenance, bring in the chainsaws with experienced operators, the impact would be equal to damaging a grain of sand on a beach.


----------



## slowp (Jul 15, 2013)

I do not care for the word citiot, but that's just me. 

Right now the rule is stone, there will not be any chainsaws in the wilderness. I'll try to find an article about how saw teams with crosscuts cleared trails after a blowdown event in California. With strong, experienced people using them, ground can be covered. I've also packed a chainsaw and gear to just day work on a trail, and crosscut gear is definitely lighter. I'd want a pack mule or sherpa if I took the Barbie Saw in on an extended trip.


----------

