# is this professional ?



## eigermike (Nov 25, 2015)




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## 1270d (Nov 25, 2015)

It may have been done by a professional. Someone is always worst in the field.


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## slowp (Nov 25, 2015)

Where is that? Is it a fireline or a hiking trail?


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## dooby (Nov 25, 2015)

eigermike said:


> View attachment 464048
> View attachment 464050


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## eigermike (Nov 25, 2015)




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## eigermike (Nov 25, 2015)




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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)

this tree has been left like this sence the first of oct ! its about 5 yards from the trail. this is in nor cal in lassen national forest they were doing a dangerous tree felling grant . its just qrazy what they get away with that we cant! my club takes care of these trails its a ohv area and i love clearing trails with my saws! just wanted to see what other people thought of there work


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## dooby (Nov 26, 2015)

eigermike said:


> this tree has been left like this sence the first of oct ! its about 5 yards from the trail. this is in nor cal in lassen national forest they were doing a dangerous tree felling grant . its just qrazy what they get away with that we cant! my club takes care of these trails its a ohv area and i love clearing trails with my saws! just wanted to see what other people thought of there work


no hold wood on the hinge of stumps-tree left unfinished. "nough said. prior pic looke like lots of plunge cuts from a small saw/bar-


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## northmanlogging (Nov 26, 2015)

not professional.

The hack job cuts are pretty standard fire wood hackery, but leaving one half cut and standing is irresponsible.


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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)

dooby plunge cuts is what it look like to me to! this isnt no firewood guys this wood will be left where it lies forever!!!!!!! its really sad and i think the forest service should awnser!


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## dooby (Nov 26, 2015)

not my dept. Class A-C cutters for the Govt. have always caused me great stress. nothing should ever be left that will cause a safety concern for others. imho.


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2015)

eigermike said:


> dooby plunge cuts is what it look like to me to! this isnt no firewood guys this wood will be left where it lies forever!!!!!!! its really sad and i think the forest service should awnser!



Well then, instead of trying to get an "awnser" on the internet, call the FS office and actually talk to somebody if you are actually concerned about safety. Otherwise, they'll never know. 

Also, how would you get that "firewood" out if it is on a trail? Build a road in? Haul in a skidder?


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## Frank Savage (Nov 26, 2015)

Oh my...I understand that removing road/trailside hazards where there is no serious traffic is a loved way how to get some practice and into bigger timber, but hell, those who do that shall be kinda judicious about capabilities of their own and their equipment. The photo may be misleading sizewise, but I see 28"-36" stumps chewed by 15" bar. Good fun for a "pissing contest" of those who know their $hit and consider tape racing boring on that day (  ), but this is absolutely unacceptable-at least in my neck of woods. No way to leave half cut tree standing, no flagging at all and not cutting it down right on next sunrise in a production unit. No way to leave such a tree anywhere else... To leave a comb of fiberpull on the stump is definitely not a pro manner-somebody trips and ends up with splinters in the neck, so probably dead...

The series of plunge cuts on that rotten punk is going into gold division of WTF/how not to cut down a tree. Good example for students...


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 26, 2015)

It's ugly work. The one half dead tree that was cut into is not very safe either.



eigermike said:


> This tree has been left like this since the first of Oct! It's about 5 yards from the trail. This is in Nor Cal in the Lassen National Forest. They were doing a dangerous tree felling grant. It's just crazy what they get away with that we can't! My club takes care of these trails, it's an OHV area. I love clearing trails with my saws! I just wanted to see what other people thought of their work


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## nk14zp (Nov 26, 2015)

Maybe this should be moved to the firewood section?


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## Gologit (Nov 26, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> Maybe this should be moved to the firewood section?



Yup. Know anybody that can do that?


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## 2dogs (Nov 26, 2015)

If it is legal to do so then clean up after these guys. Cut off the splinters and drop the standing tree that was partially cut. If you are not positive regarding the legality then speak to the forest staff. Either way document your findings and give them these pics also.


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## 2dogs (Nov 26, 2015)

This work was done by the East Of the Rockies Short Bar and Pizz Revving Society.


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## madhatte (Nov 26, 2015)

Let's not move it to Firewood. This looks like one of three things: poorly-managed trail clearing/contract administration, poorly managed fireline clearing/felling bossing, or plain old vandalism. Either way, the standing damaged trees have got to come down if they're able to fall across a trail.


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2015)

If I say a bad thing about firewood, they will come here. 

On getting hold of FS people, be patient. It is the time of year when folks are using up their use or lose vacation time so bodies will be scarce. Ask for the Timber Sale Administrator because they are usually one of the few working this time of year. They might be able to get word to the person in charge.

Here we go....I find firewood cutters to be well, annoying to deal with. 

Wait, wait....


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## Gologit (Nov 26, 2015)

slowp said:


> If I say a bad thing about firewood, they will come here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It might take them awhile to show up. First they have to load ten saws...one for every conceiveable size of wood... twenty extra chains, three axes, five splitting mauls, two hundred feet of rope, forty gallons of gas, ten gallons of oil, two cell phones, a video camera with spare batteries, a GPS for when they get out of sight of the road, three logging chains, a couple of chokers, five fire extinguishers, two pair of genuine certified made in China logging boots, a Roger RamJet logging helmet, a huge first aid kit that they've never opened and don't really know the contents of and enough firearms and ammo to fight off the entire Lower Slobovian army, into a massive 4WD pickup with side racks, huge tires, and camo seat covers.

They're not _all_ annoying. Some of them are pretty good. I can think of two. Maybe three.
They do get a little testy when we tell them that they can't cut wood on our ground except by prior permission. Maybe that has to do with past firewood cutter antics...like long butting our log decks, not knowing how to split tracks on wet haul roads, sport falling, flattening culvert ends, driving through re-prod, leaving their trash behind, driving around locked gates, target practice on advisory signs, and ignoring private property notices.
The one that annoyed us most was a guy who wrecked his pickup on our ground...after driving past several No Entry-Active Logging Area signs... misjudged a switch back, slid sideways in the road and got T-boned by a water truck. He tried to sue us. He wasn't successful. 
Firewood cutters that want to heat their homes with wood and get a little exercise in the bargain are to be admired. We just don't want them around our place.


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## rwoods (Nov 26, 2015)

Give us Firewooders a little credit. I would have at least made a face cut before I abandoned the tree. Maybe it was the work of a Chainsawer trying to cut a vertical cookie.  Happy Thanksgiving all. Ron


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2015)

My favorite bad guy story is a firewood cutter who got in my face after I told him he was not in a legal area to cut firewood in. Note that I could have taken info and given him a ticket instead of shooing him away. He was upset and started on with a political rant and informed me that I would be out of a job come November because they were taking the country back. I did not tell him that I would have my job until January, because that is when the inauguration is....

Now I are a firewood hack myself. And there was one guy who I shooed out of an area who actually thanked me for not writing a ticket. Many are misplaced and we do have very complicated rules. But we need to be courteous to each other during face to face contacts. 

Then there was the unhappy logger who had his log deck ruined over a weekend. He muttered, (add expletives) "Why couldn't they have cut one log up at a time?" The cutters had lopped off the ends of many logs and ruined the lengths. I started actually painting NO WOODCUTTING on decks after that because signs get ripped off too easily. 

The firewood cutters do help open up roads after storms though, unless the road is blocked by alders that are not of a record breaking size.


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## nk14zp (Nov 26, 2015)

slowp said:


> My favorite bad guy story is a firewood cutter who got in my face after I told him he was not in a legal area to cut firewood in. Note that I could have taken info and given him a ticket instead of shooing him away. He was upset and started on with a political rant and informed me that I would be out of a job come November because they were taking the country back. I did not tell him that I would have my job until January, because that is when the inauguration is....
> 
> Now I are a firewood hack myself. And there was one guy who I shooed out of an area who actually thanked me for not writing a ticket. Many are misplaced and we do have very complicated rules. But we need to be courteous to each other during face to face contacts.
> 
> ...


We had the whole pile of hardwood veneer logs shortened up(one or two sticks of firewood cut from the end) one weekend


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## Gologit (Nov 26, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> We had the whole pile of hardwood veneer logs shortened up(one or two sticks of firewood cut from the end) one weekend



We've had that happen with fir and pine logs more than once. When they're decked they're already bucked to the length the mill wants and pays the most for. 
We penciled in the amount of loss from firewood thieves and it was surprisingly high. Figuring in the devaluation of the log it was more than enough to amount to a felony.


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## madhatte (Nov 26, 2015)

Our firewood cutters have a sense of entitlement second only to the cities who expect free christmas trees. It's actually a person's almost-full-time-job to keep them in the proper places on the proper decks. There's still plenty of theft; always of the "dump the tree across the road and only take what's convenient" kind. They're usually only helpful after storms.


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## rwoods (Nov 26, 2015)

Since I married into a Yankee family where Dinner is thought to be the evening meal, I had a little time on my hands since my last post so I went and cut a handful of trees. At the risk of having my license to visit here revoked, I'll continue this post with a few pictures and commentary.

An example of why FireWooders flourish in the absence of pulpwood cutters:

Small cherry (picture does not do its curvaceous figure justice) succumbs to Eastern FW Humboldt:




*

Patented slow and easy fall FW side wedge: 






FW natural falling vine for limb locked wee ones:




Very valuable Black Walnut:






Ron

* Also an example of why I prefer to cut alone. 17 different cutters would have come up with 17 different assessments of the lean and the proper approach.


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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)

ok guys i am curently trying to get awnsers from the forest service but so far lotts of run around! what you guys dont see is all the green trees that they cut and all the danger ones that they left! it is just crazy.


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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)




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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)

yes there is a cuvlert there!


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## eigermike (Nov 26, 2015)




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## rwoods (Nov 26, 2015)

Just a little more:

A proper FW always tries to turn the tree to the left to be able to justify cutting the far hinge thin or off - its the natural arc of the saw isn't it. Believe this is oak.





I hesitate to show these pictures of some of my recreational experimentation for fear some other trespasser here will copy and get hurt. Not worried about you guys as you know what you are doing and/or are so hardheaded and tough that you would likely survive a mishap.

FW progressive barber chairs in unidentified tree. Actually it was purposeful for a slow and easy fall.




One reason to practice progressive barber chairs - cocked and ready spring pole:




Seven cut to length "logs" under tension (could only get 5 in the picture):




Pictures for those who insist that there is no vertical movement in un-severed fibers. The first is the stump showing a fairly level cut despite the progressive barber chairs and the second is the end of the stem showing what otherwise appears among the pulled fibers to be a stepped cut. 





Ron


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## slowp (Nov 26, 2015)

eigermike said:


> ok guys i am curently trying to get awnsers from the forest service but so far lotts of run around! what you guys dont see is all the green trees that they cut and all the danger ones that they left! it is just crazy.



The Forest service is closed today. What kind of runaround are you getting on a day it is closed? Speaking to dispatch? I'm not even sure if they are at work. Something is fishy in Sweden.


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## 2dogs (Nov 26, 2015)

Gologit said:


> It might take them awhile to show up. First they have to load ten saws...one for every conceiveable size of wood... twenty extra chains, three axes, five splitting mauls, two hundred feet of rope, forty gallons of gas, ten gallons of oil, two cell phones, a video camera with spare batteries, a GPS for when they get out of sight of the road, three logging chains, a couple of chokers, five fire extinguishers, two pair of genuine certified made in China logging boots, a Roger RamJet logging helmet, a huge first aid kit that they've never opened and don't really know the contents of and enough firearms and ammo to fight off the entire Lower Slobovian army, into a massive 4WD pickup with side racks, huge tires, and camo seat covers.
> 
> They're not _all_ annoying. Some of them are pretty good. I can think of two. Maybe three.
> They do get a little testy when we tell them that they can't cut wood on our ground except by prior permission. Maybe that has to do with past firewood cutter antics...like long butting our log decks, not knowing how to split tracks on wet haul roads, sport falling, flattening culvert ends, driving through re-prod, leaving their trash behind, driving around locked gates, target practice on advisory signs, and ignoring private property notices.
> ...



Uh-oh. I'm starting to rub off on Bob.


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## eigermike (Nov 27, 2015)

nothing fishy going on. just hard to get awnsers ive been on this for a while will see what happens!


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## nk14zp (Nov 27, 2015)

rwoods said:


> * Also an example of why I prefer to cut alone. 17 different cutters would have come up with 17 different assessments of the lean and the proper approach.


A tree can't be read from a pic.


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## nk14zp (Nov 27, 2015)

eigermike said:


> ok guys i am curently trying to get awnsers from the forest service but so far lotts of run around! what you guys dont see is all the green trees that they cut and all the danger ones that they left! it is just crazy.


Some times dead standing trees are left as habitat trees if they don't pose a safety threat.


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## slowp (Nov 27, 2015)

eigermike said:


> nothing fishy going on. just hard to get awnsers ive been on this for a while will see what happens!



So who did you call yesterday? Just curious.


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## rwoods (Nov 27, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> A tree can't be read from a pic.



And sometimes they can't be read from the ground. 

The secondary point of my original post being that trees can be read differently by different folks and how you read a tree determines your approach. All 17 of my hypothetical cutters could read this tree differently but all could put it down where they wanted. 

The primary point of my post was FWs cut trash trees that a hand faller logger would avoid.

Ron


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2015)

nk14zp said:


> Some times dead standing trees are left as habitat trees if they don't pose a safety threat.



Yes they are. They shouldn't be though. A dead standing tree is a safety threat and belongs on the ground.


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## slowp (Nov 27, 2015)

rwoods said:


> And sometimes they can't be read from the ground.
> 
> The secondary point of my original post being that trees can be read differently by different folks and how you read a tree determines your approach. All 17 of my hypothetical cutters could read this tree differently but all could put it down where they wanted.
> 
> ...



Not always. In this part of the country, we have snooty firewood cutters. They want an old growth Doug-fir with no knots (peeler grade) and straight. They turn their noses up at the tops--I used to go behind and cut their left overs up for my own firewood. 

One guy came up to me when I was cutting a road open so I could get back to a unit. He wanted me to mark a blowdown that was the quality of the above. It was about a hundred feet off the road. I did not. The tree was in an area where cutting was limited to the width of the road and the tree had to be across the road, blocking it, like the hemlock was. That hemlock was a nice tree. I mentioned to the guy that I could help him if he wanted to cut it up. I wanted the road open. He turned up his nose and drove off. Of course, the Doug eventually disappeared. Some folks only obey the firewood rules when an FS person is around.


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2015)

rwoods said:


> And sometimes they can't be read from the ground.
> 
> The secondary point of my original post being that trees can be read differently by different folks and how you read a tree determines your approach. All 17 of my hypothetical cutters could read this tree differently but all could put it down where they wanted.
> 
> ...


 You make a very good point. Sometimes though a person falling for a living will have to cut trees that no firewood cutter in his right mind would voluntarily attempt. Goes with the job. LOL...I wish it didn't.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 27, 2015)

So you've been following me around and taking pictures of some of my stumps eh? Not appreciated one bit.


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## rwoods (Nov 27, 2015)

slowp, sorry I wasn't trying to defend anyone. There are plenty of bad actors out there. When someone mentioned veneer logs, I thought convenent, straight, no knots - perfect firewood for the lazy thief. I doubt I would had enough patience to do your job. I bet bad hunters were bothersome too. Found a bear bait barrel on my property some months back. I own under 4 acres adjacent to the NF. Why pick me over 650,000+ acres of pubic land - simple, easy access off the paved road. 

Bob, your point is just as good. There a huge difference between a professional trying to make a living in the woods and someone after free firewood. Same should go for the voluntary risk taking. The older I get the more trees I pass. 

Between the unscrupulous FWs, the clueless FWs and lawyers, it is no wonder private landowners in your area don't want us around and the FS ends up with the bulk of us. From a nuisance FW standpoint both slowp and you would like it here as there is no incentive to go into the forest for firewood. Big game could pose an issue though.

SP, those sorry stumps in my pictures are infortunately all mine and freshly made yesterday, I was having a little fun - like using the vine to pull over that tiny tree which by the way was the most dangerous one of them all. It's fall took down enough dead limbs from adjacent trees to wipeout the AS four man twelve saws FW huddle.

Ron


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## Gologit (Nov 27, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> So you've been following me around and taking pictures of some of my stumps eh? Not appreciated one bit.



I'll make you a deal...I won't look at some of your stumps if you don't look at some of mine. Some of the big Redwood stumps looked like they'd been attacked by a horde of rabid beavers.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 27, 2015)

Guys that cut wood off decked logs are culls ,and deserve an azz whoopin .


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## Sagetown (Nov 27, 2015)

Lately; I've seen professional tree company employee crews that are not only amateurs, but can't speak a word of english either.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 27, 2015)

maybe i am weird........ant big log is going on the truck, little 12-14" sticks are for wood. i am not going to pick up 300lb rounds and put on a splitter, it boggles my mind why any one would want to fool with great big sticks for wood.
take big sticks to the mill, cut up the tops of them for wood. is this not normal?


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 27, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Since I married into a Yankee family where Dinner is thought to be the evening meal, I had a little time on my hands since my last post so I went and cut a handful of trees. At the risk of having my license to visit here revoked, I'll continue this post with a few pictures and commentary.
> 
> An example of why FireWooders flourish in the absence of pulpwood cutters:
> 
> ...


Ron, cherry looks ok.........what was it ya was tryin to do with that super tall block? just wanted it to go slow? if so, i'm not sure that tall of one was necessary........then again i weren't there.
i see what you mean by progressive chair, just not sure why.
i take it your shoulder is healed then


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## Gypo Logger (Nov 27, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> maybe i am weird........ant big log is going on the truck, little 12-14" sticks are for wood. i am not going to pick up 300lb rounds and put on a splitter, it boggles my mind why any one would want to fool with great big sticks for wood.
> take big sticks to the mill, cut up the tops of them for wood. is this not normal?


Yes, this is normal procedures, big blocked rounds of veneer split up really nice. Lol
After all the best and biggest and fastest wood comes from the butt logs.
Who wants to deal with mills and log buyers anyway, they always seem to have their thumb on the Doyle stick anyway.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 27, 2015)

make money on the butt, keep warm with the top


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## rwoods (Nov 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Ron, cherry looks ok.........what was it ya was tryin to do with that super tall block? just wanted it to go slow? if so, i'm not sure that tall of one was necessary........then again i weren't there.
> i see what you mean by progressive chair, just not sure why.
> i take it your shoulder is healed then



Mike, just a little playing around, the small one was leaning into canopy it could not penetrate and I wanted it to help clear the deadfall in the canopy opposite the lean. I normally only cut stuff this size as a favor to homeowners. Typically with the long block I can control and manhandle small stuff to keep them out of the rosebushes, fence, or whatever a small tree could damage. Here the lean was too heavy for me to push the tree over so I wedged it upright enough to pull it where I wanted with the vine. Once again I was just playing otherwise I would have just cut it with the lean and jerked it down with my little tractor.

As to the purposeful barber chairs. that was a funky short tree (I don't know what it is but it looks like a bush growing on a tree stem. There are a bunch of them in my little patch.). This tree had a nice bow towards the lean and all of its canopy was draping on the lean side at the edge of a clearing . I was afraid ithat if the canopy hit the ground with any force the stem would chase me if it broke from the stump so I cut just enough to begin to fall, when it stopped I repeated the process until it was down. I think I read this one right as there was enough push back from the top I was able to cut the stem into seven pieces and it still held in place. I stopped at seven only because I was up to the first major fork; I then cut it free from the stump. The bucking was just playing. The falling was not - didn't want my family to find me in the backyard with a crushed chest from a back springing stem. I would not cut a dead tree or an oak this way. Whatever these bushy trees are they hold together quite well.

When confronting a small spring pole with a short bar I usually take several quick cuts to relieve pressure instead of just plowing through.

I do know this isn't a game, but I don't really know if there is a better way short of pulling/pushing equipment to take care of such trees other than slowing the fall. Any help would be appreciated.

Ron


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## northmanlogging (Nov 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> Ron, cherry looks ok.........what was it ya was tryin to do with that super tall block? just wanted it to go slow? if so, i'm not sure that tall of one was necessary........then again i weren't there.
> i see what you mean by progressive chair, just not sure why.
> i take it your shoulder is healed then



The Doug Fir and Hemlock out here makes the best fire wood, and its super easy to split with just an axe (though some would argue that a maul is better... they are wrong) You start getting into the tops and you start messing with knots which are less easy to split.

Personally I prefer Alder and Maple for fyre wood...

But growing up, the folks decided where we got our fire wood, we generally had 2 options, FS road clearing, or DNR fire wood permits, (though you used to be able to do the road clearing for DNR just now all dnr land is gated... bastards) The FS road clearing stuff was great cause you could usually find some decent sticks, get in early enough and you would have a permit to clean up X section of road, find a couple of pumpkins and you could easily get 8-9 cords in a weekend or 2. The DNR stuff which was free was a little different, they would clear cut and stack all the tops near a road or on a landing then set the whole area up for a fire wood area, just had to print out or request a permit that came with a map etc, then you get a couple weeks or months to cut as much wood as possible, down side was that it was a slash pile so dirty wood lots of limbs and small dia stuff... made for lots of work usually in the dead of Summer when it was like a scorching 75+ deg...

Anyway to split the big pumpkins it took 2 people but you could usually do say a 4' round in less then 5 minutes, start on either side, swing and leave the axe in, next guy swings and his strike would loosen your axe, repeat until round is split (3 hits was and is normal) then work your way around your side of the round until the wood is stove size, once they are broke in half it usually only takes one hit to split any given piece, and you don't need to swing real hard.

The whole fam damly would get involved with this pa usually ran the saw or one of us boys depending on how tough the splitting was, me and my brother or Dad and brother would split, ma would stack (my brother is terrible with a saw, likes to dig up rocks and stuff that and I'm the youngest so the hard splitting stuff was given to the bigger of us)... anyway the saw could usually just stay in front of the splitters, once the saw work was done (4-5 rounds of the big 4 footers) then whoever was running the saw would either start chucking wood or splitting... we have done as much as 6 cord a day like this including a half hour to an hour drive each way.


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## Trx250r180 (Nov 28, 2015)

treeslayer2003 said:


> make money on the butt, keep warm with the top


Mike. It is very common to get 2 or 3 logs out of 1 tree ,the softwood grow nice and strait a long ways 40 footers


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## madhatte (Nov 28, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> The Doug Fir and Hemlock out here makes the best fire wood, and its super easy to split with just an axe (though some would argue that a maul is better... they are wrong)



Agreed. I do most of my splitting with a mystery doublebit somebody from my office found rusting away in the woods which I rehandled and put a half-hearted edge on one side of. You just gotta know how to do the twist thing. 

Excellent post, by the by.


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## Sagetown (Nov 28, 2015)

madhatte said:


> Agreed. I do most of my splitting with a mystery doublebit somebody from my office found rusting away in the woods which I rehandled and put a half-hearted edge on one side of. You just gotta know how to do the twist thing.
> 
> Excellent post, by the by.


 My brother found an old single bit axe head along side the highway. I cleaned it up, sharpened , and rehandled it. I use it often. Looks similar to a Dayton axe.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 28, 2015)

Ron, i weren't being critical, just curious. i am spoiled, i have never not had large equipment. now i'm curious what your bushy trees are......

Matt, i see, its a different ball game on that side. a 4' round of white oak here you couldn't split with a stick of dynamite.......axe is pretty useless here but for kindling.


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## rwoods (Nov 28, 2015)

Mike, 

No problem. I look for critism from you guys as I don't have anyone here to teach me.

As to the trees, they are short (20' to maybe 30'), the wood is white and the bark changes up the stem from close to a mature poplar to a knobby texture. The branches drape downward so the falling side tends to roll under upon impact. I can't see any commercial value in them. 

Ron


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## Skeans (Nov 28, 2015)

slowp said:


> My favorite bad guy story is a firewood cutter who got in my face after I told him he was not in a legal area to cut firewood in. Note that I could have taken info and given him a ticket instead of shooing him away. He was upset and started on with a political rant and informed me that I would be out of a job come November because they were taking the country back. I did not tell him that I would have my job until January, because that is when the inauguration is....
> 
> Now I are a firewood hack myself. And there was one guy who I shooed out of an area who actually thanked me for not writing a ticket. Many are misplaced and we do have very complicated rules. But we need to be courteous to each other during face to face contacts.
> 
> ...


We had some firewood guys decide to cut a few of our oversize poles one weekend after that we gated the place.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## Skeans (Nov 28, 2015)

Gologit said:


> Yes they are. They shouldn't be though. A dead standing tree is a safety threat and belongs on the ground.


Doing the government work for the state they make us leave dead standing trees and create snags even in young thinnings.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


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## rwoods (Nov 28, 2015)

Mike, the best I can tell from my research is my trees must be young hackberrys. I don't know for sure as the leaves are gone. Like everything, the web descriptions are all over the lot. USDA compares it to elm and ash. Others describes the wood as strong and one of the most flexible of hardwoods while others describing the wood as weak and brittle. They all seem to agree that aside from wildlife, the tree is basically only fit for firewood. The birds may like them but I hate their droopy branches - you wack them off so you can mow and before you can turn around the next ones up begin to droop.

Ron


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## Gologit (Nov 28, 2015)

Skeans said:


> Doing the government work for the state they make us leave dead standing trees and create snags even in young thinnings.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk



That's a darn shame. The guys that have to deal with those probably don't like it much.
Most of my work was on private ground and we'd drop every one we could. Sometimes on burn salvage we might leave a few that looked like they could make it, but usually it was total clearcut.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 28, 2015)

rwoods said:


> Mike, the best I can tell from my research is my trees must be young hackberrys. I don't know for sure as the leaves are gone. Like everything, the web descriptions are all over the lot. USDA compares it to elm and ash. Others describes the wood as strong and one of the most flexible of hardwoods while others describing the wood as weak and brittle. They all seem to agree that aside from wildlife, the tree is basically only fit for firewood. The birds may like them but I hate their droopy branches - you wack them off so you can mow and before you can turn around the next ones up begin to droop.
> 
> Ron


i don't think we have them here Ron. sounds like an understory tree to me, as such its good your cutting them. i tell my LOs to cut beech and stunted oak for their wood and leave those straight pretty oaks to grow for a harvest. some don't seem to get it that you have to let the nice ones grow if you want a good pay next time.

speaking of beech, i saw some i girdled with the saw twice a few years back, they healed and are thriving. what has to be done to them short of cutting off?


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## slowp (Nov 28, 2015)

Gologit said:


> That's a darn shame. The guys that have to deal with those probably don't like it much.
> Most of my work was on private ground and we'd drop every one we could. Sometimes on burn salvage we might leave a few that looked like they could make it, but usually it was total clearcut.



Hey, it's a chance to make more money if you can bid it right. If there's enough profit on the FS side of things, they'll put out a contract for bid to make snags and drop green trees to be left as rat logs. Low bid gets it. That's here, not everywhere and depends on how high the bid on the timber sale went..above base rates.


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## Gologit (Nov 28, 2015)

slowp said:


> Hey, it's a chance to make more money if you can bid it right. If there's enough profit on the FS side of things, they'll put out a contract for bid to make snags and drop green trees to be left as rat logs. Low bid gets it. That's here, not everywhere and depends on how high the bid on the timber sale went..above base rates.




LOL...If I think about that long enough will it start to make sense to me? Or should I just disregard logic and common sense and adopt the good old "as long as we're getting paid the hell with everything else" attitude?
If I thought about it hard enough I could usually figure out why things were done a certain way but I gotta confess...some of the things the FS did I never did get a handle on.
Must be me, eh?


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## Woos31 (Nov 28, 2015)

Frank Savage said:


> Oh my...I understand that removing road/trailside hazards where there is no serious traffic is a loved way how to get some practice and into bigger timber, but hell, those who do that shall be kinda judicious about capabilities of their own and their equipment. The photo may be misleading sizewise, but I see 28"-36" stumps chewed by 15" bar. Good fun for a "pissing contest" of those who know their $hit and consider tape racing boring on that day (  ), but this is absolutely unacceptable-at least in my neck of woods. No way to leave half cut tree standing, no flagging at all and not cutting it down right on next sunrise in a production unit. No way to leave such a tree anywhere else... To leave a comb of fiberpull on the stump is definitely not a pro manner-somebody trips and ends up with splinters in the neck, so probably dead...
> 
> The series of plunge cuts on that rotten punk is going into gold division of WTF/how not to cut down a tree. Good example for students...


Especially being that rotten and it could just drop or collapse straight down on a guy or who knows what the hell them rotten buggers will do


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## SliverPicker (Nov 29, 2015)

Ron, thanks for setting me straight. I was a bit suspicious that those might not actually be some of my stumps. I usually don't do such a good job.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 29, 2015)

The FS foresters here now call the FS law enforcement folks if there is a mistake made. One guy on a crew I was cutting for last month accidentally put the horizontal part of the face in an 8" live pine before realizing his error. Law enforcement was called. No citation was issued. I also cut a cluster of 5 dead pines. One of them was 6 and 5/8" in diameter. The spec. on this project was 7" and up if its dead it goes. The forester threatened to call law enforcement because of that 3/8". The result was 4 people standing around the stump trying to figure out what to do. 20 minutes of drama over 3/8". This is one tree out of about 20,000 that were cut. I offered to glue the tree back on the stump, but no one took me up on my offer.

We were also told that if we cut any spruce live or dead law enforcement would be called. 5 minutes after telling us this the forester proceeded to mark a skid trail with 2 dead spruces standing in it.

Some things, I guess, I am just plain incapable of understanding.


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## treeslayer2003 (Nov 29, 2015)

sounds like you found the rare A hole. i'd see how many sticks i could fall any time he is following me around, maybe self preservation will change his attitude.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

They call law enforcement on such things because they HAVE to. Yup, any time an undesignated tree is cut, the LEOs must be told. No exceptions. That doesn't mean citations are written, or that the LEO will even come out for a look. I'd lay the inspection report on his desk, and he'd read it and initial it. No site visit required unless I had a suspicion of evil intentions. I did have one of the LEOs come out when the faller couldn't understand that he wasn't cutting on a state job and I had to mark the trees in the skyline corridors BEFORE cutting started. In fact, things got a bit nasty and I thought I was going to get smacked by a fist. But the faller cooled off thank goodness. I like my teeth. The gypo logger, who was in charge cowered behind me during that conversation, and didn't say a word. 

SliverPicker, if your contract is a normal timber sale contract, it will say that all timber must be marked in advance of cutting. You don't go ahead and start cutting out your skid trails without that taking place. I hope your SA gets out there early enough to get it done so it doesn't slow things down. You can help that by getting things flagged out on the ground well in advance. Both parties work together, and it makes things more pleasant and efficient.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

We had a major screw up on a sale with many colors of paint on the trees. It was an old unit and purchaser mark for this attempt. There were blue marked trees from the previous attempt at a sale. We'd walked the unit but the cutters got confused and for a half day cut all the trees marked in blue. I hadn't gotten up there. I got a call to come into the office and the cutters were there. Their bullbuck walked through their strips and realized what was going on, shut them down, wrote up a beautiful account of what happened, and all came into talk. The LEO was there, we all worked out a solution using the contract provisions instead of law enforcement. Everybody worked together and all was well in the world except my boss and I had to spend a couple days in the fell and buck scaling logs and marking them.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 29, 2015)

He never once said he was required to call the LEO. He would, literally, stick his chest out and proclaim that "If X happens then I cam calling law enforcement." 

I told the superintendent on that job that if law enforcement was called because of an honest mistake on my part he would immediately be looking for a faller to replace me. "I will be gone before they even get here.".

Make a mistake at work and the law will come have a talk with you? No thanks.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 29, 2015)

Most trails and all the landings were marked ahead of time. About 30% of the skid trails were not marked until a month into the job. It really made for a lot of wasted time.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> He never once said he was required to call the LEO. He would, literally, stick his chest out and proclaim that "If X happens then I cam calling law enforcement."
> 
> I told the superintendent on that job that if law enforcement was called because of an honest mistake on my part he would immediately be looking for a faller to replace me. "I will be gone before they even get here.".
> 
> Make a mistake at work and the law will come have a talk with you? No thanks.




Sounds like you have to deal with a bit of a jerk. Is he new to the job? Maybe trying for his certification? Do you guys sit through a pre-work meeting where all the hoops and processes are explained? Those are boring as hell but can answer a lot of questions and prevent some problems.

It isn't really "calling" law enforcement. It's more of a notification...letting them know of a happening and what was done about it. This is supposed to be a check to prevent timber theft and maybe even prevent collusion between the SA and the loggers. There's been a bit of that in the past. Although the timber out here is not nearly so valuable as it was in the bad old days, the powers that be insist on that notification. It's one of those That's Just The Way It Is situations.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> Most trails and all the landings were marked ahead of time. About 30% of the skid trails were not marked until a month into the job. It really made for a lot of wasted time.



You want to be careful. If you really have a jerk as a sale administrator, they can insist on being notified in writing that they need to come out and mark the trees and they have up to 10 days to do so. I've heard of a couple of guys who insisted on that method and they milked those 10 days. It is a rare thing, but every once in a while, one insists on that.


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## bnmc98 (Nov 29, 2015)

Not enough money in it here to deal with buttholishness... (for us anyway)
I have run into some real winners. We had one guy that we asked if we could have a few unmarked trees in the cut area and because of deep snow he said no. So I asked if I marked them if we could have them, which he replied Yes to. So I did. That's not real ambitious. You would think they would give us everything they could because that would increase the probability of a return logger.

Whole clumps of trees dying in hazard removal projects and they would not give them to us because they did not only have 10% canopy left, most were 30% or under left green.

I have also cut blocks of select timber that were marked for cut, not a single straight log in the bunch. Crooked, rotten.... As if to say, these are all the trees we don't want and want removed, good luck selling them, but we got what we want... But you can't leave them either.

I have viewed sales up for bid that were the same thing. How's a guy supposed to make a buck?

Sales of burn areas that they will not allow skidding by tractor, only line machine (or suspended skidding). Of which there are not many around because it costs too much to operate vs what you get from your buyers.
Didn't really matter anyways because it was already slated for law suit before the bids were opened.

Some administrators seem to be so red tape oriented that they don't make it lucrative for the logger.

We had one guy that would not pass our slashing for anything. "has to be 18" or lower" The area we were working in was so windblown and thick with deadfall that it was not uncommon to have 3' - 4' of debris before we even started logging. They even had trail crews that came up and got lost trying to cut out the trails because they could not find them and eventually just said forget it and were told to leave them and not reopen them at all. We had to fight tooth and nail for him to pass us finally he did with two other officials suggesting that he should.
Ridiculous. If they ran it like a business then maybe we all might accomplish something, but as it is, I don't see many people doing much FS sales here anymore because FS doesn't even want us there and it shows.
We had one office tell us that they were trying to get out of anything that has to do with timber.

Some guys bid on FS sales, but I don't know how they survive, or make it happen. I can't wrap my head around it.

Welcome to the "Last Best Place" (not for a Logger)

We just had a deal on the news where two major mills in the state here were interviewed and said that only 5% of their wood comes from FS sales. 10% from state. (our state forester seems very open to getting timber put up btw) 85% from private

Probably me just on a rant... ignore it.


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## rwoods (Nov 29, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> Ron, thanks for setting me straight. I was a bit suspicious that those might not actually be some of my stumps. I usually don't do such a good job.



I still scratch my head as to why many FWs and CSs can't seem to appreciate the fact that many loggers fall more trees in a day than they will in a lifetime. Though I have been around a little while, I have no doubt that you could compress all my fallings (including the midget trees) into just a couple of weeks of yours. I appreciate that you guys and slowp put up with me.

Ron


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## madhatte (Nov 29, 2015)

slowp said:


> a sale with many colors of paint on the trees



These are always a mess. That's why we always try to limit the moving pieces to boundary color, cut color, and maybe do not cut color.


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## ChoppyChoppy (Nov 29, 2015)

Guess it's not just around here.

They have stolen out of my log decks and make a freaking mess with what they leave behind. I don't understand it, but they will take a pile of normal length long logs (~40-45ft) and cut right in the middle, taking maybe 10-15ft worth of firewood, then move on to the next log.

They are quick too. Last winter we had a deck of logs, about 30 cords, on a land clearing job near the local Walmart. A contractor did the land clearing to prep for an indoor go cart track/fun center thing and we worked out a deal for the logs from them. 

Went to look at it Friday evening after they called to say it was ready to go. 2 nice piles of birch, both around 15 cords each and a 3rd pile of spruce and poplar, maybe 6-7 cords. We figured a good 4 loads of wood.
By the time we got there with the log truck Sunday morning, there was one pile of birch left, barely had enough for 1 load. The whole time we were loading there were pickup trucks pulling in and leaving, realizing that the "free" wood was being claimed by the owner.

Got told by one person "Well the wood was just laying there"




slowp said:


> Then there was the unhappy logger who had his log deck ruined over a weekend. He muttered, (add expletives) "Why couldn't they have cut one log up at a time?" The cutters had lopped off the ends of many logs and ruined the lengths. I started actually painting NO WOODCUTTING on decks after that because signs get ripped off too easily.
> 
> .


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## northmanlogging (Nov 29, 2015)

In regards to the FS woes...

Few weeks ago I looked into a deck sale, lots of wood 40 loads or so on one some old growth fir, or at least huge second growth, and another 20 loads on another sale, both bidding about the same time.

What the FS wanted for a minimum bid is about what I would have gotten for one of my private jobs, granted all I had to do was get a loader and line up 3-4 trucks and be done with it in a day or two per job, 

Problem is that once you get past all the BS, you realize that 20 miles of road maintenance are included in each sale, the timber had been down and sitting for at least a year (sauk river rd rebuild) and the lengths where all screwy. So even if you managed to get a mill to buy from you instead of them just bidding on it, they wheren't apt to be giving top dollar...

I still hope to get involved in some smaller DNR/FS sales, say a camp ground rebuild or parking lot clearing etc, but I'm really not sure its going to be worth all the bull shat.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> Not enough money in it here to deal with buttholishness... (for us anyway)
> I have run into some real winners. We had one guy that we asked if we could have a few unmarked trees in the cut area and because of deep snow he said no. So I asked if I marked them if we could have them, which he replied Yes to. So I did. That's not real ambitious. You would think they would give us everything they could because that would increase the probability of a return logger.
> 
> Whole clumps of trees dying in hazard removal projects and they would not give them to us because they did not only have 10% canopy left, most were 30% or under left green.
> ...



You really need to sit in on a planning meeting. That is where the head banging begins. And, read up on the contract. Unless it is a special case, or for slashing or something else, you are not required to cut culls. Look in the A provisions where it says what included timber is, and what is a merch tree. The contract defines that.
I know it is boring, but read up and familiarize yourself with the contract. That way you will know what is required and what is not. Also, you can put requests--always in writing to ask for changes if something is not quite right. Ask questions. 

There are bad eggs out there who try to bluff. If you don't know what is in the contract, you can't know. 

As for working in timber. I really liked it. We put out a product and I worked in more of a real world. But, timber folks are the part of the FS that most management folks want to hide away. It's the black sheep of the Forest Service. Although it funds a lot of Forest Service "specialists" they often do not like having to work on timber sales and don't care.


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## bnmc98 (Nov 29, 2015)

You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.


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## slowp (Nov 29, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.



I absolutely hated going to planning meetings. I am sure my blood pressure was in the danger zone at times. 

Arrrrgh, Out Out You Demons Of Stupidity. 

And as long as the sales keep selling, the 'ologists will continue to pile on more requirements.


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## northmanlogging (Nov 29, 2015)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=899211460125947&set=p.899211460125947&type=3

lets see if this works, on the lines of firewooding, this would be mah pah and nephew probably an ancient 034av maybe slinging a 25" bar? Also this is on a FS road that happens to lead to some private ground. I'm assuming it was taken saturday?


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## Sagetown (Nov 29, 2015)

northmanlogging said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=899211460125947&set=p.899211460125947&type=3
> 
> lets see if this works, on the lines of firewooding, this would be mah pah and nephew probably an ancient 034av maybe slinging a 25" bar? Also this is on a FS road that happens to lead to some private ground. I'm assuming it was taken saturday?


Well; it don't work on my end. It says" SORRY".


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## Gologit (Nov 29, 2015)

bnmc98 said:


> You're right, I have not sat in on a meeting. I'm sure that there is a lot more that goes into it than what I see.



Go to the meetings whenever you have a chance. They're aggravating but they're also informative.
You might have to chew a hole in your lip to keep from saying something when the idiocy starts but just sit there and take it all in. The meetings give you a good idea of who is who and you need to know that.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 30, 2015)

slowp said:


> You want to be careful. If you really have a jerk as a sale administrator, they can insist on being notified in writing that they need to come out and mark the trees and they have up to 10 days to do so. I've heard of a couple of guys who insisted on that method and they milked those 10 days. It is a rare thing, but every once in a while, one insists on that.



I've seen this in action. It shut a whole job down for about 5 days.


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## SliverPicker (Nov 30, 2015)

I'm actually hoping that when I grow up to be big and strong I can bid on some FS sales. That's where the best timber seems to be hiding these days. 

Whenever I am dealing with FS sale administrators (not often) I make sure to tell them that I have been to Forestry Skool. Offering that info seems to make things a bit smoother. A spoonful of sugar? Maybe just grease for the wheels.


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## chucker (Nov 30, 2015)

SliverPicker said:


> I'm actually hoping that when I grow up to be big and strong I can bid on some FS sales. That's where the best timber seems to be hiding these days.
> 
> Whenever I am dealing with FS sale administrators (not often) I make sure to tell them that I have been to Forestry Skool. Offering that info seems to make things a bit smoother. A spoonful of sugar? Maybe just grease for the wheels.


?? or it puts more chocolate on the tip of the nose ?? lol


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## Quartz Path (Dec 1, 2015)

All I can say is dangerous if trees are cut and felled like this it is only a mater of time before someone kills themselves the lack of anything even trying to resemble a hinge on those cuts should give away how bad the work has been as for half cut trees left standing that's insane.


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## muddstopper (Dec 21, 2015)

I am just a firewood hack now, but growing up I used to do a lot of logging. dad picking me and my brother up everyday after school to head to the woods. Of course the trees in my area are nothing lie the wood you westerner folks cut. A 4ft dai tree around here is a really big tree. I can relate to FW stealing wood, some so bold to try and do it with you on the job site. I had a job of removing some pretty large Northern Red Oak. Mot of it so big my cable loader woudnt even put one end of the log on the truck. I had to wait until the clearing crew could pick the logs up and put on my truck. One guy drove up with his pickup truck wanting to cut some fire wood. Since I wasnt hauling firewood and there where plenty of good tops laying everywhere I said sure, cut all yu want, just leave the logs alone. I even went so far as to take the cable loader and pull a bunch of tops up to the road to make it easy for him. When I got my truck loaded, it was a couple of hour round trip to the log yard. When I got back to the site, guess what, the guy had cut up a large portion of my saw logs into firewood lenght. well to late to save my wood, but I be durn if he was going to haul it out of there for firewood. I got the clearing crew to bring their dozer and push the blocked wood, as well as all the tops I had pulled up to the road, bac down into the gulley they came from. The FW guy came back with his pickup and started complaining they where pushing all the wood where he couldnt reach it. I told him to quit his B.tching and leave, I had tried to be nice and help him gather his wood, and would of pulled up a lot more for him, but he just had to ruin my high dollar veneer red oak that I was getting a dollar a board ft for, which back in those days was a lot of money. He b.itched and moaned, but his easy wood just wasnt available any more.

I know a lot of loggers in my area, even though I dont log anymore, a lot of the folks I grew up with. I still go to their logging sites to harvest firewood. I ask before I show up and they usually will take their loaders and load me up all the butt uglies they dont want. It gets the junk out of their way and I get my firewood. I seldom have to crank a saw and usually dont even get dirty. I might have to sit around for a little bit until everything is clear for me to actually get to the wood, but I stay out of the way and stay ready for when they are.


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## treeslayer2003 (Dec 21, 2015)

yes sir, if they just work with us i don't mind helpin um out. i'm about done on this job and the last thing i'll do is push the tops back in the woods. they better get it, i won't leave that in the field for the farmer to complain to the land owner about my mess.


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## muddstopper (Dec 21, 2015)

I think most of the loggers would probably go a little bit out of their way to help a FW'er as long as it didnt interfer with their operation. It doesnt take but one Ahole to screw things up for everybody. You screw over the logger a time or two and I can guarantee the logger will ban everybody from his site, and the next site hes working on too.


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## FSburt (Dec 29, 2015)

Hello all long time since I have posted but this one grabbed my attention. They do contract the hazard tree falling work along ohv and hiking trails on the northern cal forests since they get a lot of grant $ for this. Now judging from the 2 pics of the stumps it appears the first tree was a green red fir felled parallel to the road what is not visible is f the top 1/2 was dead only. The second tree looked like a total hack job with a small bar. Now if this were govt fallers doing this level of shoddy work someone should be answering for it. We have spent a lot of time and energy in R5 developing a safe and efficient cutting program that frowns on this type of substandard work. Now another clue is the low cuts. Most FS stumps as some on hear will attest are usually of the conventional undercut method and are waist high for ease of escaping the stump in a standing position. We have had some folks (private citizens) trying out their falling skills on big green sugar pine 60 inches plus dbh. 1 was felled and left in the middle of the road and another was sawn up with undercut kerf all cut up but they could not get it blocked out so they left as is. I debated falling it but since it's still a live tree and it's not a hazard to any roads and is in middle of the woods I decided to leave it. Just sad to see the big trees like that get vandalized by some wannabe lumber sexual fool trying to impress his woman.


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## FSburt (Dec 29, 2015)

Oh and it could be low bidder contract work with someone in over their head trying to deal with trees beyond their skill level.


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## eigermike (Jan 2, 2016)

found out that the forest service said they learned some things after this job. she told me that that contracter would not be back. said that they wont have as big a crew and the contract would be writen different next time. she really difnt say much about the tree that was half cut but she really wanted more pics of the cullvert that was damaged. said they could dock them money for it. she gave me the rules for danger tree felling that they used . she said there was a forest person with them when all cutting was done. when the snow melts this spring i will take her in and show her all that i saw. the sad thing is whats been done is done! i will keep u guys posted as to what ever happens thanks mike


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