# Sustainable logging



## logging-guide (Feb 8, 2011)

There is this misconception among the public about loggers that I would like to put to rest. They seem to think that loggers are unconcerned about the forests they work in. They think loggers only cut, slash and destroy. As a logger I take issue with this way of thinking. I was taught from the first day on my first logging job to be responsible in the way I harvest timber. I was taught to make as little of an impact as possible. It only makes good sense, I mean after all we want to come back and harvest that piece of timber again. 

My question is this. What sustainable logging methods do you use to minimize the impact on the forest?


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## RandyMac (Feb 8, 2011)

I gotta admit, I enjoyed the cutting, slashing and destroying.

You will get some reasonable people to answer your questions. It's above my pay grade. We have a few active foresters and loggers who are well versed on the subject.


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## palogger (Feb 8, 2011)

From a fallers stand point, one of the best things i try to do is fall my trees so that the skidder doesnt have to try spinning them around the leave trees. I have even cut some logs to length in the woods to reduce the chance of marking trees up if the logs are laying in behind leave trees. Another thing is try to not knock tops out of the leave trees


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## slowp (Feb 8, 2011)

Where I work, at least for 6.5 more weeks, the timber is growing faster than it is harvested. Would that be above or below sustainable?

The agency has had a genetically superior tree program. In the 70's trees were chosen for their fast growth, good form and location--easily accessible. Cones were picked, and then the seeds planted in nurseries. Then scions (I'm talking about what I do not know much about) were grafted onto whatever you graft to and we now have seed orchards, where seeds can be gathered for starting seedlings if needed. 

We don't have the big clearcuts anymore. I see some plans for some small 2-5 acre "clearings" in the next project. 

When we talk terminology, sustainable is second to "restoration".


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## madhatte (Feb 8, 2011)

I don't care for the term "Sustainable". It implies a status quo which never needs to be changed. I prefer "Ongoing", as it implies no end. 

That said, there has been a sea change in logging philosophy in the last 25 years, some of it due to government intervention, some due to improvements in science and technology, and some due to popular opinion. On the whole, the changes have been largely for the better. However, we're only human, and we have to make mistakes to learn from them. I suspect that forestry practice will continue to evolve as our knowledge and needs evolve.


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## Labman (Feb 8, 2011)

I think every profession and industry has a lot of past to live down. As an early settler on the North branch of the Sesquanaha, I doubt my great, great grandfather practiced sustainable forestry. Too bad all the money he made was squandered long before my generation.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

Tree co your absolutely right on the head there, all those years of leave that old knotty tree as a seed tree has created a gene pool that is terrible! And slowp it is true that the trees are growing faster than there harvested but there again faster dose not equate with higher quality faster growth means weaker cell structure larger grow rings and weaker lumber! And palogger thats the way to do it the less damage to the residual stand the less chance you have of insects or disease getting in and weakening the timber! 
We too use directional falling when we drop trees but we always buck to length our logs I was taught along time ago that the longer the log the more damage can o cure, so we use more chokers and bunch our logs to remove them!And when we get trees that we cant get by without hitting them then we place old tires around the trees to help take the impact! O and logging guide did you get my email?


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## Humptulips (Feb 9, 2011)

madhatte said:


> I don't care for the term "Sustainable". It implies a status quo which never needs to be changed. I prefer "Ongoing", as it implies no end.
> 
> That said, there has been a sea change in logging philosophy in the last 25 years, some of it due to government intervention, some due to improvements in science and technology, and some due to popular opinion. On the whole, the changes have been largely for the better. However, we're only human, and we have to make mistakes to learn from them. I suspect that forestry practice will continue to evolve as our knowledge and needs evolve.



Disagree completely! Things started going down hill 30 years ago. Forests al least in this state are being mismanaged at an accelerating rate. Blame it mostly on government regulations. The rest is catering to the PC crowd that thinks clearcut is a dirty word.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

clear cutting and replanting dose nothing but destroy the existing eco system! It leaches nutrients out of the soil even when using water bars and other methods of erosion control's they only modify's the loss of soil it also allows invasive species to engulf the area and destroys wild life habitat that is need! even slowp admits that it is more about restoration, if the practices were working why are you guys having to restore what was done in the past? And you can go on all day debating management practice's what it really boils down too is markets and prices ! All that wood that is going to waste would be utilizes if markets were available at a price that would afford a profit. Lands would be available to log if the general pubic were able to see positive in packs on the land and not areas looking like a tornado hit it ! Here is a pic of a job that we have done along a main highway we have revived many comments and job inquiry's after people have seen the positive in pack created with this kind of management


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## hermit (Feb 9, 2011)

We have more houses than we can sell, We overharvest our forest, Our unemployment is sky high. How about we use horselogging and cut timber with crosscut saws. With putting enough people to work we could regulate how much timber we cut and if you have a place to live you don't need to build another one. So that should help lower the excess houseing, won"t need to cut as much timber, Put many people to work,cuting and skidding with horses. Just think of all the support jobs. No work= no pay, no welfare !!! (I'm NOT running for any political office, Probably couldn't get elected for dogcatcher with ideas like this anyway)


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## madhatte (Feb 9, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> Things started going down hill 30 years ago. Forests al least in this state are being mismanaged at an accelerating rate. Blame it mostly on government regulations. The rest is catering to the PC crowd that thinks clearcut is a dirty word.



That's a sentiment I've heard more than once, and is not without merit. As I've noted elsewhere, Douglas-Fir grows best in full sunlight -- that is, the sort of conditions that follow a clearcut. Our young forests are among the most vigorous in the world. 

However, on the steep slopes and clay soils common through much of our region, the roots of both mature trees and understory shrubs and forbs are critical in holding soils stable during our wet winters. Landslides occur when water percolates through permeable soil layers to the interface with impermeable parent material, and the whole mass floats off down the hill. Limiting disturbance limits this slope instability. 

An "Ongoing" forestry program is one which balances the needs of the developing trees with the needs of the soils they require to grow in. There will be no forest in the future if the hillside is in the river drainage.


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## 137cc (Feb 9, 2011)

horseloger said:


> clear cutting and replanting dose nothing but destroy the existing eco system! It leaches nutrients out of the soil even when using water bars and other methods of erosion control's they only modify's the loss of soil it also allows invasive species to engulf the area and destroys wild life habitat that is need! even slowp admits that it is more about restoration, if the practices were working why are you guys having to restore what was done in the past? And you can go on all day debating management practice's what it really boils down too is markets and prices ! All that wood that is going to waste would be utilizes if markets were available at a price that would afford a profit. Lands would be available to log if the general pubic were able to see positive in packs on the land and not areas looking like a tornado hit it ! Here is a pic of a job that we have done along a main highway we have revived many comments and job inquiry's after people have seen the positive in pack created with this kind of management


 
Sorry man, clear-cuts are a PROVEN method. However they aren't the right choice in every forest type. There are many area's where we should never use this practice. 

The stuff you said about the soils having nutrients leached out is just untrue. Removing all of the stems from a site doesn't change the soil chemical composition. It will change soil moisture content, and the soil can be compacted to different degrees depending on the method of harvest.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

If you have erosion you have leaching ask any soil scientist And madhatte is absolutely right about the shrubs and tree roots holding the soil and the deeper and larger the root system the more it holds! A lot of the land slides that occurred out there are attributed to the loss of the overhead canopy buy logging or fire! 
Hermit Although you were joking there I think and if not I will apologizes ahead of time! But the context is actually not a bad idea and is needed! Rural areas that have good growing stocks could benefit from small scale logging and sawmill operations and employ many more people If the larger corporations would allow it but they do everything in there power to stop it fearing that we will get into there pockets! You know that the guy that invented the combustion engine used wood alcohol to run his engine, which is made from trees! Now wouldnt that be a market too supply


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## madhatte (Feb 9, 2011)

Give this a look.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the link that is exactly what Im talking about from what I see they have a diverse Eco system that was restored by uneven aged management!And utilizing all merchantable material into finished product allows a higher profit on a lower amount of timber extracted And using small low impacted machinery to harvest the wood!
Although not all wood land owners would be able or willing to harvest this way, [meaning that they would not have the capital to buy the machinery] Small community groups would be able to come in and harvest leading to more employment for cutters skidder operators horse, or machinery sawyers dry kiln opperater's and cabinet makers and truck drivers


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## logging-guide (Feb 9, 2011)

*Logging Guide*

I have to say, I like what I am hearing. Thank you all for your great answers! This thread proves that loggers in general are concerned about the health of the forest they work in. Your answers show that loggers are ahead of everyone else like we always have been. Loggers are progressive and not just sustainable in the way they manage forests. 

Slowp, I think what you are doing is above sustainable. Maybe we need to coin a new term such as 'Progressive Logging' for this type of operation. 

Madhatte, I like your thinking on this. I would add as well that the free market has had a lot to do with the advances in the last quarter century. The need for better, cheaper, more easily harvest-able timber has given rise to operations like Slowp is describing. 

Horseloger and TreeCo, You are absolutely right. Maybe advances in science can solve the poor gene pool problem. In the mean time we can follow your lead and harvest timber selectively, and with minimal damage, leaving high quality younger trees behind to re-seed the forest. 

You all have inspired me to write an article Sustainable Forestry or Progressive Forestry

Check it out an let me know what you think.

Have a great day!


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## Humptulips (Feb 9, 2011)

horseloger said:


> clear cutting and replanting dose nothing but destroy the existing eco system! It leaches nutrients out of the soil even when using water bars and other methods of erosion control's they only modify's the loss of soil it also allows invasive species to engulf the area and destroys wild life habitat that is need! even slowp admits that it is more about restoration, if the practices were working why are you guys having to restore what was done in the past? And you can go on all day debating management practice's what it really boils down too is markets and prices ! All that wood that is going to waste would be utilizes if markets were available at a price that would afford a profit. Lands would be available to log if the general pubic were able to see positive in packs on the land and not areas looking like a tornado hit it ! Here is a pic of a job that we have done along a main highway we have revived many comments and job inquiry's after people have seen the positive in pack created with this kind of management



I won't speak for your area but i know this area and clearcuts are the best way to go. Nothing unnatural about it either. It mimics a burn at least they way it used to be done.
When Slowp talks about "restoration" I can say with a lot of confidence she means restoration to an old growth forest with the goal to never log it again. Those second groth forests she pictures hardly need restoration from bad logging practices.
Those tornado hit looking clearcuts might not look good to the general public but don't fool yourself, it is plowed ground waiting for the next planting and not just commercial trees . Nature plants a lot of benficial flora by herself.

This erosion you talk about just overblown around here. Didn't seem like much of it. Worst slides seem to be in the old growth. It rains a lot here so maybe we have the ability to flush any silt to the ocean but mostly not a factor. Th trees gorw just fine erosion or not. Maybe you have to see it but they come up like a carpetand you can't stop them.

When I see the new forestry, I see millions of feet of good timber left to rot in blown down buffer strips, root balls leaching their dirt into salmon streams and a lack of forage for wildlife because the thinning doesn't promote the growth they prefer.
The area where I live went through the supposedly worst logging practices in the 20s and 30s. Splash dams, ground logging across and through streams and yet the salmon were doing great, the forest was growing thick and the game was plentiful. Now however all of that has changed and I don't think you can blame how things have changed all on forestry but you can't say the old ways were to blame either. That just doesn't fly if you saw what it looked like.

The main problems I see now are the wasted leave trees, thinning for no good reason, private lands being logged to fast and government lands not being logged enough or not at all.

I tell you I just get so sick of hearing how bad logging is and was. It is not true.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

well then if its so good then how do you explain the growth in slowps and in the growth in madhate link the most of the trees in madhatte have larger growth and looks of better quality, because of the uneven age management!And as I stated the nursery trees that are replanted are genetically engineered for fast growth and fast growth produces weak lumber! You can talk to most any contractor and he will tell you that the wood that was produced out of the old growth wood was far superior than the wood today! It is a proven fact that clear cutting hurts the Eco System and that land slides are a direct link to fire damage and logging activity! So you can tote the company line or actually dig into the real science! 
If we dont change how we look to the general public we will have more and more regulations heaped on us by the government! Shows like Axe Men that show's that we are a bunch of thug's that stand around cussing and trying to kill each other for dramatic effect and showing trees being smashed and dragged through the landscape only enhance the feeling that we are destroying more than we are helping the environment ! And there again if you say the word second growth that means that it was cut once and you are restoring it back to its originally condition so how can you restore something if it wasn't damaged in the first place!
I have been out there worked there and left in discussed because of what I have seen this was back in the eighty's when supposedly they had started to do things more sensibly but it was still pretty bad !


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## madhatte (Feb 9, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> When I see the new forestry, I see millions of feet of good timber left to rot in blown down buffer strips, root balls leaching their dirt into salmon streams and a lack of forage for wildlife because the thinning doesn't promote the growth they prefer.
> The area where I live went through the supposedly worst logging practices in the 20s and 30s.



Ah, there's another thing that's commonly overlooked. Diseases such as Laminated Root Rot weaken the trees from the roots, and the likes of Brown Top Rot makes trees prone to breakage in the wind. Note that both of these diseases are endemic to forests of a specific age class, that is, 50-100 years old. That's the exact age of the majority of timberlands harvested in the Pacific Northwest today. 

A simultaneous strength and weakness of clear-cutting as a silvicultural treatment in 2nd-growth stands is that it captures the vigor of the young forest before the diseases have a chance to do major damage. Contrarily, it captures the entire genetic diversity of the stand before Natural Selection has a chance to produce disease-resistant individuals through trial and error. A longer rotation (say, 70 years) would only show increased losses to disease and to stem exclusion. 

A well-planned thin program, however, can capture both mortality and survival, and repeated entries fine-tune the desired stand structure so that a given stand can be visited again and again. The most important thing to get away from is the idea that there's some kind of hurry -- that's Wall Street thought, and those guys don't work in the woods with us. Trees have their own pace about things. 

Finally, I want to address the issue of "Clock-Resetting" events like fire or volcanism and their role in forests. Yes, these things do happen. In some places they happen relatively often, and the ecology adapts to accomodate it. In other places, such as the outer Pacific coast of the Northwest, they happen very infrequently, and the ecologies are poorly adapted to such events. 

The time between major disturbance events is called a "Return Interval". Eastside Ponderosa stands have a fire return interval on the order of 5-10 years. Coastal Spruce and Hemlock stands? More like 1000. It takes centuries for the organic material in the top and middle layers of soil to grow thick and rich enough to support the kind of plant and animal diversity we take for granted. For every major disturbance event, it takes time to recover. 

The most extreme examle locally is, of course, Mt St. Helens. Go walk around the Hummocks between Cold Creek and Johnson Ridge and have a look at the soil. It's thin, sterile, and fragile. That's because it's only been 30 years since it was nothing but a fine glass dust. Now walk around in the big timber near Staircase. Your soil will be under a couple of feet of leaf litter, branch debris, moss, lichen, and will be soft, moist, aerated, full of worms and bugs and fungus. 

That's what disturbance destroys. It's not just the soil itself -- it's everything that makes the soil. Those things, in turn, are what makes a forest, not just trees. I almost don't care about trees at all, except as they affect the larger system that is the Forest. That's why I'm so adamant about limiting disturbance. I don't want to save any special tree or something -- I just want to make sure that there are forests for later so fifty generations from now there'll still be raw materials to make buttwipe out of.


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## slowp (Feb 9, 2011)

I usually don't like folks trying to read my mind for me, but Humptulips hit it right on. I have asked what we are restoring the forest to...what condition. Old growth was what was in the documents, the people wouldn't answer. So, since old growth is off limits, the federal woods won't have logging for long. We grow trees here. They grow fast. 

As to the quality? All trees have growth rings far apart at the start here. The second growth has less defect and saves out better when felled. Did you notice all the rot and breakage in the old growth when you were out here, horselogger? We'd cruise it to where we figured the top would explode when the tree hit the ground. We got pretty good at that after seeing what happened. 

Did you notice all the conks on the trees? There were quite a few, especially when we got into the hemlock/silver fir stands at the higher elevations. So much for quality there.

Clearcuts being bad? Clearcuts have been made for eons out here. Think of what the vocanic eruptions have done. The tribes burned the forest so they'd have good hunting and berry gathering. The big game doesn't have much to eat in a dark, old growth forest. 

Our huckleberry areas are getting smaller. The old clearcuts are getting a closed canopy and that chokes out the huckleberries. I am a huckleberry fanatic and want more clearcuts again. Huckleberries have also been "discovered" by the urban restaurants and the demand has increased. So we folks who pick for ourselves are competing with commercial pickers while the available berries are decreasing. 

Soils? We have slides where there was no logging and slides where there was. Our local soils are volcanic. Lots of pumice. Dig down and you'll find a layer of pumice, then a layer of organics, a layer of pumice, a layer of organics...Water perks through it pretty fast so it dries out fast. Did I mention how well trees grow? 

One small mill goes through 2mmbf each month. I do not think you could supply that using horses, but I don't know much about horses. I do know that we have a lot of very steep ground that needs a yarder or helicopter to get the logs off. 

As for making jobs? Back when logging was going hard and heavy here, a guy only needed to show up early and stand by the Mt. Adams Cafe with a lunchbox and a pair of calk boots, and he'd get picked up by a crew and put to work. Then there were the kids hired to dig fireline, the FS people who did the burning, the contract mop up crews, the brush pilers, the tree planters, the road builders, and the thinners. The TWO ranger districts employed two hundred people in the summer, most of whom worked in timber prep jobs. Now we have one district that has maybe about 60 employees in the summer, most of whom seem to work at computers. We hire maybe one or two kids to work in timber prep. 

It was hard to find an excuse to be unemployed here. Now???

Like Humptulips said, we have blowdown in some pretty thick concentrations and it is rotting away. The woods are pretty much shut down. Sad...But don't blame clearcuts. Clearcuts are sustainable.


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## Humptulips (Feb 9, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Give this a look.



Found this pretty interesting and have a little insight on it. My Father grew up just across the river from it. He picked black berries there and later on ferns. Pretty good example of how things used to be done. Not perfect but it turned out allright. In more recent years the best words I can call it are Hobby Farm. Nice if you can do it


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## Humptulips (Feb 9, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Ah, there's another thing that's commonly overlooked. Diseases such as Laminated Root Rot weaken the trees from the roots, and the likes of Brown Top Rot makes trees prone to breakage in the wind. Note that both of these diseases are endemic to forests of a specific age class, that is, 50-100 years old. That's the exact age of the majority of timberlands harvested in the Pacific Northwest today.
> 
> A simultaneous strength and weakness of clear-cutting as a silvicultural treatment in 2nd-growth stands is that it captures the vigor of the young forest before the diseases have a chance to do major damage. Contrarily, it captures the entire genetic diversity of the stand before Natural Selection has a chance to produce disease-resistant individuals through trial and error. A longer rotation (say, 70 years) would only show increased losses to disease and to stem exclusion.
> 
> ...



So many different issues.
Laminated root rot. I've had a little experience with it. Thinning is probably the worst thing you can do. Seems to be worse in dryer soils but not much you can do about it realistically except planting trees with resistance. Almost impossible to tell 100% which trees are infected. If you leave them they blow down when you let the wind in. You can't replant with more resitant trees as long as you thin.
Logged in the Bremerton watershed and there was a lot of it. It was pretty obvious that there had never been any large timber in the area. The rot killed them before they got very big. They wouldn't allow clearcuts and we were thinning. Lots of repeated entries which constantly damages new growth plus there is a certain amount of stand damage every time. Really exacerbates the blowdown issue also.
That's what it looked like to me.

Spruce and hemlock forests and St Helens. Apples and oranges. St Helens is fir country. Spruce and Hemlock forest here on the wet side are not effected long term by a burn at least soil wise. The soil is not destroyed and the spruce and hemlock grows back just fine. Probably never see any burns here again anyway. Too much air polution.
St Helens, That's really not soil disturbance at least anything that can be compared with logging. More like dumping 10 feet of sterile pummy on top of everything. In logging you just stir it up a bit at worst.
I'm not really advocating scalping the country with a cat but yarding a few logs to the road doesn't stir things up that much


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

there again sustainable forestry is all about selective cutting removing the worst first and doing it with as little disturbance as possible to the land! A high lead yarder is an appropriate machine if it is used correctly. And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days ! But allot of the skills needed too work a team that well has been lost and only now is there a movement to bring that back! But getting back too what I was saying by looking at the natural tree paint that mother nature has made cavity's seeping wounds lighting and bug damage, and deformed trees. Timber can be marked too remove the inferior and open the canopy to create light so the under growth and smaller trees can grow! This allows your food for wild life including huckleberry's to grow with out stripping the land! And as madhatte posted the old growth timber has soils feet deep and reclaim site the soil is disturbed so badly that they can not regenerate that depth for century's


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## Gologit (Feb 9, 2011)

horseloger said:


> And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days !


 
45000 feet in two days is pretty good for two teams. But when we need a million feet on the landing every week and the ground is cow face steep I'd rather have a Chinook or an S-64. Very little soil disturbance with a helicopter.

Horses have their place and I'm glad to see somebody like yourself that cares enough to keep the old time traditions alive. But in most of the places I work they couldn't yard enough timber to make any money and they couldn't yard enough timber to keep a decent sized mill going. They're fun to watch and they're a curiosity but nobody who is really logging for a living takes them very seriously.


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## 371groundie (Feb 9, 2011)

im not only a trained logger and educated forester, im also a landowner. the only ground if purchased is the 4 acres i live on. the rest of my ground has been handed down through the family. 

the management of the ground before it was in my hands was mostly leave it all or take it all. this has left me with areas loaded with wood, and areas that are very young stands. 

my forestry education has given me the skills to 'read' a stand of timber. ive seen professionally managed stands and butchered woodlots with nothing notable left standing. and ive seen these stands 1, 10, 50 years post harvest. this gives me a playground as a forester to manipulate different stands.

its my perspective as a landowner that leads me to treat every woodlot as my own. i want to teach my son, and my grandson how to log, and how to manage a forest for long term returns.


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## horseloger (Feb 9, 2011)

as i have stated before its not about old time traditions its about utilization of the right technology to the right project and your right in the conditions you are in on a steep hill side a helicopter might be the best option ! But cost of that helicopter is expensive and unrealistic for most operations! And as far as horses keeping up with a large mill how do you think they did it in the old days all those redwoods were moved with draft animals on hillside and in flat areas. I have a friend that lives up on wolf creek pass in Colorado and logs on hillsides that are as steep as cliff sides as far as Im concerned and he uses horses and mules to skid these logs out! And I know many loggers that are logging for a living will disagree with your thinking that it a niche or curiosity thing! There out there everyday moving timber and making a larger profit than they did with large iron !I reiterate if it cost you $250.00 per day to operate a skidder and it cost you $10.00 per day to run a horse and you can do about the same amount of work then which do you think would make more profit? And 371 goundie my hats off to you thats exactly the way to bring up the next generation! I too am teaching my sons in the same manor!


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## Humptulips (Feb 9, 2011)

horseloger said:


> there again sustainable forestry is all about selective cutting removing the worst first and doing it with as little disturbance as possible to the land! A high lead yarder is an appropriate machine if it is used correctly. And horse's could keep up with a mill like that if you had enough teamsters as stated on one of the other threads Two teams were able to produce 45000 feet of logs to the landing in two days ! But allot of the skills needed too work a team that well has been lost and only now is there a movement to bring that back! But getting back too what I was saying by looking at the natural tree paint that mother nature has made cavity's seeping wounds lighting and bug damage, and deformed trees. Timber can be marked too remove the inferior and open the canopy to create light so the under growth and smaller trees can grow! This allows your food for wild life including huckleberry's to grow with out stripping the land! And as madhatte posted the old growth timber has soils feet deep and reclaim site the soil is disturbed so badly that they can not regenerate that depth for century's



I really am at a loss what to say about your posts except to say one size does not fit all.You may well have the best aproach for where you are at. Please though do not dismiss clearcuts wholesale. They really are the best way to do things in some areas. In my posts I have tried to make it clear my observations are limited to my small area of wandering up and down the coast. I wouldn't dane to argue for the same thing anywhere east of the coast range.


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> Laminated root rot. I've had a little experience with it. Thinning is probably the worst thing you can do.



...in the short term. As noted above, it's a disease endemic to young forests. Older forests will build a tolerance. That's why it's good to plan for a many-aged stand. 



Humptulips said:


> Almost impossible to tell 100% which trees are infected.



100% true. I'm participating in a study now on how to find the edge of a disease center reliably. It's proving to be very difficult.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !


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## Humptulips (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !



You seem to have the world figured out to suit you so I'm done. Carry on as you please.


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest!



Respectfully disagree.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

No I just believe in the facts as they are presented to me! give me data that supports clear cutting as a sustainable way of logging and I would gladly rethink my opinion!As far as I'm concerned clear cutting is just a cheap and fast way of getting wood off a mountain, Replanting dose replace the timber that is lost but dose so at the loss of wood quality and ecological diversity!


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Give me the data to back that up ! The only reason the forestry service was originated was a way for the lumber barons to stop john mure for closing down there operations that were clearly destroying the forest! Then big money manipulated the forestry service into showing that clear cutting was fine if they just left a few spots here and there This type of thinking along with the the agricultural practices of the day caused the dust bowl which led to the great depression which led to the formation of the cccs! There experts decided that transplanting trees would be a great way of regenerating the forest which it was and the lumber barons seen this as a way that they could passify the public into thinking they were doing something wonderful by replanting what they took but in reality it was all about taking as much as they could with as little expenditure as possible !


 
Come on bud,
His name is spelled John Muir. He, in my opinion, is the father of all the waco environmentalist we're dealing with today. But I don't think he was shutting anyone down before the forest service was started. I'm sure he was squacking though.

Andy


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

Maddhatte are you trying to say that the forestry service was started because of the great fire? That is the link that you posted!


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

I stand corrected I didn't my typo, but if you check your history books you will see that he had as big of a following as the environmental s do today!He most certainly was trying to shut down the lumber barons and Teddy Roosevelt started the forestry service to be an intermediary between the to camps! This was taken from the forestry dept. history page The founding of the National Forest System and the Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, has its roots in the last quarter of the 19th century. The national forests (at first called forest reserves) began with the Forest Reserve Act of 1891, which allowed the president to establish forest reserves from timber covered public domain land. Several early leaders and visionaries, along with willing presidents (especially Teddy Roosevelt), scientific and conservation organizations, and newly trained forestry professionals, led the successful effort in retaining millions of acres of Federal forest land for future generations.


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## joesawer (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I stand corrected I didn't my typo, but if you check your history books you will see that he had as big of a following as the environmental s do today!He most certainly was trying to shut down the lumber barons and Teddy Roosevelt started the forestry service to be an intermediary between the to camps! This was taken from the forestry dept. history page The founding of the National Forest System and the Forest Service, an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, has its roots in the last quarter of the 19th century. The national forests (at first called forest reserves) began with the Forest Reserve Act of 1891, which allowed the president to establish forest reserves from timber covered public domain land. Several early leaders and visionaries, along with willing presidents (especially Teddy Roosevelt), scientific and conservation organizations, and newly trained forestry professionals, led the successful effort in retaining millions of acres of Federal forest land for future generations.


 

That is some powerful Kool Aid you are drinking!
Clear cuts on the west coast=dust bowl in the high plains?
Clear cuts are sustainable and have been sustained but if you blind yourself and believe half truths and environMENTAList agenda you are crippling yourself from the start.
If you do not understand the market factors that have caused juvenile trees to be cut into lumber and sold resulting in lower ring counts, you have not even scratched the surface of understanding what you are ranting about.
A big reason for the lumber quality that you complain about is because of the pressures people like you have brought onto the industry! And then you complain about your success! Are you related to my ex?

Is this a little plagiarism? Lol 
Read the second paragraph.
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1602.html


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

joesawer first of all I hate Kool aid I do understand the market factors I deal with them everyday! And there again support your ideologue with facts make me a believer! The reason the market has driven it self to smaller stems is because of the bad logging practices of the past and I am sorry you guy s dont like hearing that but its the truth ! And I am not ranting environmental Roderic ether its a historical fact that the logging practices that happened on the west coast enraged the public and caused the banning of the old growth timber! How else wound something like that get through congress? The study s were there to convince congress that the damage being done to the old growth timber would lead to its destruction and there for they used the spotted owl as a way of stopping that destruction ! Check your history books the cccs were formed to combat the erosion problems caused by the logging and agricultural practices that stripped our land of vegetation and caused the dust bowls on the plains and mud slides in the north west ! And as far as my success you have no idea how successful I am you dont know me from Adam, I have a very successful management practice because the management practices I use work, so thats a pretty ignorant comment!

I read the post it said, The agency itself was created from two federal entities. Beginning in 1891, forested public domain lands were set aside by presidential proclamation in order to reduce destructive logging and preserve watersheds. Now why would they create an agency to reduce the destructive practices if they didnt occur and there wasnt some sort of out cry from the general public?


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Maddhatte are you trying to say that the forestry service was started because of the great fire? That is the link that you posted!


 
Let me clarify. The early Forest Service was an ineffective, toothless agency constantly tied up in legal battles with the rival BLM. The Great Fires of 1910 galvanized the flailing agency with a single purpose: Fire Suppression. 

My point is that no matter what the FS wanted to do in the beginning, it wasn't really doing it. The Great Fires made the USFS what it is today.


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## slowp (Feb 10, 2011)

I'll do this from my head, and later cite the references.

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted." 

The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto. 

Hmmmm, my history book on the FS seems to be missing. It is titled, The Greatest Good. 

Muir and Pinchot were at odds with each other. Pinchot was for managing, Muir for wilderness. 

Pinchot won out. The Land Nobody Wanted became public lands and now grows some pretty good timber. The land out west that was not homesteaded or owned by railroads became Forest Reserves. 

After WW2, there was a housing boom. That is when the timber production ramped up on National Forests. Yes, some of the poorer growing sites were over harvested. 

I got in on the last of it. Regardless of what study you read, the forests on the West Side of the Cascades made a profit for the treasury. The timber was of good quality, and was bid accordingly. Putting up clearcuts took less time, fewer people, and we had laws requiring reforesting. Not only did an area have to be replanted, it had to be certified as adequately stocked, within 5 years of that planting. 

We were already starting to thin in the 1980s here. Then the environmental madness started. Did you know that one college on the east coast appealed timber sales as part of a class project? Sales out here in the west?

That's how crazy it got. Since then, the owl forests, which were the most productive, have been virtually shut down. 

That's it in a nutshell. Now, I wonder where my book is?


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Let me clarify. The early Forest Service was an ineffective, toothless agency constantly tied up in legal battles with the rival BLM. The Great Fires of 1910 galvanized the flailing agency with a single purpose: Fire Suppression.
> 
> My point is that no matter what the FS wanted to do in the beginning, it wasn't really doing it. The Great Fires made the USFS what it is today.


 
Ok learned something there thanks


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted." 
The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto. 
deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary 
And in the early eighty's timber was being removed so fast that even my home state of Indianan was looking into using soft maple and poplar as an alliterative to spf studs! This is what led to the up roar by the Sierra Club that started the spotted owl thing
And that brings up another point the reason that the maple poplar thing never got started was because of the monopoly enjoyed by the lumber barons on the west coast ! There making the agency stamp unfordable to all but the wealthiest stopped many small mills from producing! 
And we can quote the history books but allot of that has been manipulated to show good face on the government most of the history that I know was haded down by my grandfather who was out there running his own mill back at the turn of the century!


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## Gologit (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."
> The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
> The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.
> deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary
> ...


 
:monkey: Dammit...you caught us. Okay, you're right. It's all a big conspiracy between the mighty timber barons and the various government agencies to rape the land, get rich and, in the process, keep guys like you hungry and poor. You're on to us...I can tell.

And, since I do most of my work for just about the biggest timber baron there is, maybe it's time we gave your ideas some thought. We're having a round of meetings right now to plan our work for the coming year and I'll be sure to mention that we need to do a better job of covering our tracks. Guys like you are watching our every move. 

And, just for thought...A couple of years ago I clearcut about eighty acres that my _grandfather_ clearcut in the early 1950s. Before that it was clearcut in the late 1890s. I have my grandfather's old scale tickets as a reference and the logs I cut were more plentiful by the acre, had better dbh, were just as varied in species, and had less defect at the mill than his did. Sounds to me that maybe a clearcut _can_ regenerate into something _better_ than a lot of mis-informed people realize.

You've stated your position and several very knowledgeable people have showed you where you were wrong, that your ideas were rooted in emotion instead of common sense, and that your logic was flawed. You chose not to accept their accumulated wisdom and experience. That's your choice entirely but, it seems to me, that if enough people tell you that you're wrong, you just might be.

I'm done with this thread.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

No your absolutely wrong nobody has shown me anything but the company line, and you can show scale tickets all you want but then why again do the contractors keep complaining about the quality of lumber they receive for construction purposes? And as I have said I base my facts on research that has been done by accelerated researchers ! The point I have always tried to imply was that if the timber had been managed correctly when the housing boom started then maybe the whole spotted owl thing would of never happened!And as far as trying to except there knowledge and wisdom it seems that you folks want to operate with a closed mind! When you make comments even after the facts have been shown that operations other than your own are just wannabes and unable to meet your high expectations then your the one that is operating on emotion instead of common sense ! Maybe you should suggest looking into selective cutting you might find some open minds that are willing to do things a different way ya never know! 
And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !


 
Chill, yo. I think we've covered that one in detail already.


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Select cutting works ok in mixed stands also containing various ages of trees.
Palco did a great deal of thoughfull select cutting in Old Growth stands, a fair amount blew down and the result was a clearcut. Clearcutting Doug Fir makes sense, largely a single age, single species forest and you pretty much get the same type of tree afterwards.
As for #####ing about lumber quality, look to the sawmill grading system as well, things have changed, what used to be "merch" worthy of fence boards, is now "construction" grade. Select has knots, instead of all clear heart. Younger trees have more distance between growth rings, it is a fact of life now, get over it.
The Old Growth was used to build and expand our great Country, at a time when it was needed. Today's lumber will hold up your house just fine.
Second guessin' the older logging practices is only an excerise in an historic sense. Things were learned. Our regs are causing the Canadians to strip their lands, when they run out, we will most likely be more open to timber harvest.


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> No your absolutely wrong nobody has shown me anything but the company line, and you can show scale tickets all you want but then why again do the contractors keep complaining about the quality of lumber they receive for construction purposes? And as I have said I base my facts on research that has been done by accelerated researchers ! The point I have always tried to imply was that if the timber had been managed correctly when the housing boom started then maybe the whole spotted owl thing would of never happened!And as far as trying to except there knowledge and wisdom it seems that you folks want to operate with a closed mind! When you make comments even after the facts have been shown that operations other than your own are just wannabes and unable to meet your high expectations then your the one that is operating on emotion instead of common sense ! Maybe you should suggest looking into selective cutting you might find some open minds that are willing to do things a different way ya never know!
> And by the way the originally question was what kind of sustainable logging do you do !


 
Whoa there buckaroo!
Those contractors that are complaining about the quality of lumber, where are they getting that lumber? Home Depot? Lowe's? 
Last year a buddy of mine that builds log homes bought several units of 2x6's. They weren't that great, but as good as anything else Lowe's had. I helped him mill a shiplap on them, on the end of every board was a tag that stated the lumber came from Germany on some and various other European countries on others. Not one board out of 15 units was a product of the good old USA. My buddy said "they aren't very good, but at this price I can defect". 
Maybe your contractor friends are bargain hunting, and then complaining about the quality.
I don't think that lumber grading is the same as it used to be. I think they have got a little lax in grading so other countries can compete. A #2 common now is about the same as a #3 shelving grade used to be.
I believe you may be complaining about the quality of our timber stands, judging them by the quality of foreign lumber.

Andy


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Brain hurt from being reasonable.

....and the horse you rode in on!!!!!


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Still wondering what "accelerated researchers" are. They drink too much coffee, they do Meth?


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Time to get to it, gonna fondle some OD DF "select"





.


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## 137cc (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Gifford Pinchot "started" the USFS. In the Upper Great Lakes region, the land had been scalped, trees cut, no replanting. Folks tried to homestead on it, but gave up. It was called, "The Land That Nobody Wanted."
> The start the lumber barons wipe out the east coast moved to the mid west and destroyed the lands there and then they tried it on the west coast until Muir and his grope started protest to stop them ! Pinchot was put in place to mediate between the two gropes and was supported by big money and congress thats why he won out!
> The USFS was formed to control such deforestation. Not to end clearcutting. Caring for the Land and Serving the People became the motto.
> deforestation is clear cutting as defined by the dictionary
> ...


 
horseloger, oh where to start? 

Gifford Pinchot is widely considered to be the father of the modern day forest service. He was good personal friends with Teddy Roosevelt, and was the key voice in his ear. Both Pinchot and Roosevelt were CONSERVATIONISTS. They believed in wise use of our natural resources. I believe this is the Pinchot quote that slowp was referring to earlier;

'Conservation is the foresighted utilization, preservation and/or renewal of forests, waters, lands and minerals, for the greatest good of the greatest number for the longest time"

Pinchot and Roosevelt were not friends of big business/congress either, Teddy was busy trustbusting and breaking up monopolies. Pinchot was also instrumental in getting the forestry service moved out of the dept. of interior and into the dept. of agriculture. This was done because of widespread corruption at the interior that Pinchot believed would lead to the exploitation the forest reserves. And its not all about logging, the early forest service spent a lot of its focus on grazing and mineral rights.

John Muir was a PRESERVATIONIST. While his views didn't come to reality in his lifetime, the national park system is developed from his ideas. 

And you are repeating a lot of environmentalist rhetoric. Saying the clear-cuts are deforestation is blatant environmentalist garbage. What's going on in the rainforests of south america is deforestation. Industry cutting and replanting is not deforestation. It may not be your preferred management technique, but that doesn't mean its deforestation. 

I don't even want to start on your mis-understanding of economics and real world facts. 

If horse-logging is so profitable and can fully supply big mills then why aren't more people doing it? 

A horse that only costs $10 per day and can keep up with a skidder? 

I have a friend that logs in areas steep as cliff sides as far as Im concerned and he uses horses and mules to skid these logs out? 

Horse logging is a hobby industry that remembers the old times. It is limited in the areas where it can be used to make a profit and is hard to do on a large scale. It accounts for less than a fraction of a percent of timber making it to mills in this country, so that's why it's a hobby.


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## floyd (Feb 10, 2011)

Educate me here. Why are most so down on animal powered extraction? Is it taking money from your pocket?

It is a niche market. Not everyone has a burning desire to feed the mill & listen to equipment every day.

Have you ever seen a professional working their animals in the woods or did you get your education fron Dirty Jobs?


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

floyd said:


> Educate me here. Why are most so down on animal powered extraction? Is it taking money from your pocket?
> 
> It is a niche market. Not everyone has a burning desire to feed the mill & listen to equipment every day.
> 
> *Have you ever seen a professional working their animals in the woods or did you get your education fron Dirty Jobs?*


 
Very profound.

Horse loggers are great, horse's asses are not.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

There again Gifford Pinchot was very close to Roosevelt and he was into conservation that is why he was picked to run the department because Roosevelt new he would find a way to calm the environmentalist and help the timber barons get all the timber they wanted!
And as far as me dealing with my buddies I deal with company's that sell lumber in the millions of feet not build homes they know there stuff I have a degree from Purdue university in wood technology I know wood I know the grading rules you are right they have relaxed them but thats because they are cutting Juvenal lumber ! 
And how ever you say it clear cutting wastes more than it regenerates its not environmental nonsense as you state! And as you stated the Canadians are stripping there ground and you hoping for more timber to be released so you folks can go out and do it again? There is a saying those that do not learn from there history are bound to repeat there mistakes!
And floyd it is niche market thats growing strong and when fuel reaches 5-7 dollars a gal and the big boys fold up there tents or try to find other ways to feed the mill then they may understand, because only the highest profit jobs will be working and thousands will be out of work looking for some way to log and make a profit !
And yes my team only cost $10.00 per day to maintain and buy that includes food shoeing meds and vet fees I can pull them behind my pickup truck and when Im not using them they just hang around in the pasture and as far as most people not using them you would be surprised most of them keep to them selfs and do there job! I know personally at least 10 operations in Washington 5or 6 in in California and yes the guy in Colorado uses his horses all the way up too tree line ! Now I cant comment on palcos work that you are making reference too but one site dose not justify saying clear cutting is the only way out there!


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Fuel costs will be passed on the to consumer, just like any fuel based job, like farming.
Crosscut saws don't burn "fuel'', nobody thinks it's grand idea to throw away chainsaws.
As for doing it all over again, scrape your boots off, get out from behind that animal, the old style ways that you keep harping on, are nearly in the past as well.
Reread the the information provided, even though it doesn't set well with you. It is what it is. Maybe those blinders need to stay on the horse.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

no sir I dont have blinders on you must though, the high cost of fuel will only be passed on as long as people can afford it and I think its your way of doing things that is disappearing more and more land owners are not letting machinery on there property's when they learn that there is and alliterative because of the damage they do to the property! University's all over the united states are hiring teamsters too start new programs teaching forest management and and draft animal extraction of timber!


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Good luck with that.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

It has nothing too do with luck it is just a fact


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> There again Gifford Pinchot was very close to Roosevelt and he was into conservation that is why he was picked to run the department because Roosevelt new he would find a way to calm the environmentalist and help the timber barons get all the timber they wanted!
> And as far as me dealing with my buddies I deal with company's that sell lumber in the millions of feet not build homes they know there stuff I have a degree from Purdue university in wood technology I know wood I know the grading rules you are right they have relaxed them but thats because they are cutting Juvenal lumber !
> And how ever you say it clear cutting wastes more than it regenerates its not environmental nonsense as you state! And as you stated the Canadians are stripping there ground and you hoping for more timber to be released so you folks can go out and do it again? There is a saying those that do not learn from there history are bound to repeat there mistakes!
> And floyd it is niche market thats growing strong and when fuel reaches 5-7 dollars a gal and the big boys fold up there tents or try to find other ways to feed the mill then they may understand, because only the highest profit jobs will be working and thousands will be out of work looking for some way to log and make a profit !
> And yes my team only cost $10.00 per day to maintain and buy that includes food shoeing meds and vet fees I can pull them behind my pickup truck and when Im not using them they just hang around in the pasture and as far as most people not using them you would be surprised most of them keep to them selfs and do there job! I know personally at least 10 operations in Washington 5or 6 in in California and yes the guy in Colorado uses his horses all the way up too tree line ! Now I cant comment on palcos work that you are making reference too but one site dose not justify saying clear cutting is the only way out there!


 
Purdue.............Whoop te do. Sometimes the end user is the best person to get quality information from.
Clear cutting isn't a one size fits all prescription. Of corse neither is any other prescription. It is however a viable prescription.

Oh, on a side note. If you think that you're keeping a team of draft horses for $10 a day................Well, your logic isn't the only thing that's flawed. Your math skills seem to be lacking a little too.

I'm all done.

Andy


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Hey Red!
Meet you at the tavern for a beer. I got the first round.


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Hey Red!
> Meet you at the tavern for a beer. I got the first round.


 
Randy,
I'll have to make mine coffee. My wife convinced me 16 years ago that I really wasn't a good drunk. And all those years I really thought that was something I was pretty good at.  

Andy


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Coffee is good Andy, having etching grade right now.


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Hey, Horseloger, pull up a stump, tell us about the actual, hands on of horses and logs.


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

Hahaha.
My wife read my post and said she may have been wrong about me being a bad drunk. She said that it could be that I'm just an ass hole.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Hey, Horseloger, pull up a stump, tell us about the actual, hands on of horses and logs.


 
Yep, that's something I'd like to hear.

Andy


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Hahaha.
> My wife read my post and said she may have been wrong about me being a bad drunk. She said that it could be that I'm just an *ass hole.*
> 
> Andy


 
I am a dues paying member of that club, drinking or not.


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> University's all over the united states are hiring teamsters too start new programs teaching forest management and and draft animal extraction of timber!



I think it's great that universities are teaching a broader range of forest practices than they did a few years ago. I think horse logging is a great low-impact way to get the logs out. I also think it's just one of many tools to keep in one's box, along with all the others, including some of the less-in-vogue ones. There's a time and a place for everything. 

By the by, one of my co-workers is also a Purdue grad. Sharp dude, knows his stuff. I certainly won't be dissing on you for your choice of schools!


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

Madhatte,
I'm working on my masters degree from the School of Hard Knocks.
I've heard that's a pretty good school too. 

Andy


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

Best there is. Kind of tough to get them to give up the paperwork, though. Bummer, that.


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

There was a hippie crew who horselogged a pretty big patch of tall, skinny Doug Firs. I didn't watch them do it, but I saw the ground about a year later, nearly park like. They didn't burn the slash, it was scattered or piled for habitat. The Firs were 20-24 inch, they used handtools, taking almost half the timber and all the culls. It did take them a while.


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## slowp (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm still learning. The _School Of Asking Loggers _is a good one to go to. Sometimes it is best to just tell them what result you want, and let them figure out how to do it. We are getting beautiful results on a touchy feelie sensitive area.


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Best there is. Kind of tough to get them to give up the paperwork, though. Bummer, that.


 
Once upon a time, I did attend a little school for a while. One of my classes was soil & water conservation. It's been long enough ago that I don't remember much about what they said. Most of my education came when I stepped into the real world. I've got some paper work from that 1st little school I attended if someone really thinks they need it. I'd have to dig it up though.
I'm a firm believer in college, but the real education starts in the School of Hard Knocks.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> There was a hippie crew who horselogged a pretty big patch of tall, skinny Doug Firs. I didn't watch them do it, but I saw the ground about a year later, nearly park like. They didn't burn the slash, it was scattered or piled for habitat. The Firs were 20-24 inch, they used handtools, taking almost half the timber and all the culls. It did take them a while.


 
I've never been around a real horse logging operation. But there was a guy around here that was doing a little horse logging on his own property. Really cool to watch him work his team, but like you said, it was slow going.

Andy


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

well thats where your wrong I said it was $10.00 per horse and that is all I pay I do my own shoeing I raise my own hay an grain so I dont pay over inflated prices for my animals! And how would you know what care cost for a draft horse if you dont use one?
And I found some pics here of fsc certified project and one of a clear cut I bet that if we did a national poll that more people would pick the fsc woods over the clear cut!
Here they are now number one is an aerial view of the too cuts number two is a fsc and number 3 is the clear cut


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

Well I to have been in the field for 30 years and am a third generation logger doing everything from cruising to cutting to rigging to machine operator to sawer so I have put my time in and have taken my nocks !


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## slowp (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> well thats where your wrong I said it was $10.00 per horse and that is all I pay I do my own shoeing I raise my own hay an grain so I dont pay over inflated prices for my animals! And how would you know what care cost for a draft horse if you dont use one?
> And I found some pics here of fsc certified project and one of a clear cut I bet that *if we did a national poll that more people would pick the fsc woods over the clear cut!*Here they are now number one is an aerial view of the too cuts number two is a fsc and number 3 is the clear cut



Well, yah, but does that mean it is sound forestry? We're already seeing the results of forestry by how the "majority" (loudest screamers) wants. Gee. 

My work here is done. This is not logical. Hey Randy, can I come in the bar too? I'll wear my purple shoes. . :beat-up::drink: 

I like my Jack, Yukon. On ice, please.


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

Ice it is. You drink free, it's purple shoe night.


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## Greystoke (Feb 10, 2011)

Humptulips said:


> I really am at a loss what to say about your posts except to say one size does not fit all.You may well have the best aproach for where you are at. Please though do not dismiss clearcuts wholesale. They really are the best way to do things in some areas. In my posts I have tried to make it clear my observations are limited to my small area of wandering up and down the coast. I wouldn't dane to argue for the same thing anywhere east of the coast range.


 
I completely agree pard. In my travels up and down the West Coast, mostly CLEARCUTTING The few times we did try to do some thinning, it was usually an effort in futility, as after a couple of good windstorms, we had to go back and re-log a big mess of blowdown. Again, not advocating big huge clearcuts, but they have their place in today's logging environment, at least in the environments that I have lived and worked in!


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> And yes my team only cost $10.00 per day to maintain and buy that includes food shoeing meds and vet fees I can pull them behind my pickup truck and when Im not using them they just hang around in the pasture and as far as most people not using them you would be surprised most of them keep to them selfs and do there job! I know personally at least 10 operations in Washington 5or 6 in in California and yes the guy in Colorado uses his horses all the way up too tree line ! Now I cant comment on palcos work that you are making reference too but one site dose not justify saying clear cutting is the only way out there!


 
Sorry bud, read it and weep. You didn't say per each, you said your team.
I didn't say I've never had any draft animals, I just don't anymore.
Oh did I mention my major in that little school I attended............Farm and Ranch Management.........Yeah, I remember now, that was it. Wanna talk some animal husbandry?
Check mate!
I don't want to play anymore, you can't remember what you say and that makes it hard to present a good arguement. 

Andy


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## Greystoke (Feb 10, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Hey Red!
> Meet you at the tavern for a beer. I got the first round.


 
And I'll get the second one Andy...arguin with Idiots can make a guy thirsty!


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## RandyMac (Feb 10, 2011)

I think MadHatte buying the third.

Hearing about a horselogger's day would have been better than the baloney.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

well as I said before you show your ignorance in the way you talk yes I would be glad to talk animal husbandry with you my horses only use 10.00 a horse 2.00 per day for i bale of hay, grain is two pounds per day a 60 pound of oats last one month and that equates into 14.40 a month divided by 30.50 days = 2.11 per day for oats 1 salt block per month at 7.00 per block so 2.00+2.11+.22 = 4.33 shoes run 28.00 every three months 90 days divided into 28.00 =.31 for a total of $ 4.64 per horse I rounded off to the nearest dollar so I dont know what they taught you in that school but as usual you try to implement your ideas of what you think onto some one else and you dont look at the facts! I contacted some FSC foresters I know out on the west coast and they agreed the stands in the pictures were still intact and growing fine so your conclusion that theses stands do not hold up is not altogether true ! There again you have to look at all the factors involved to make a good plot! And i was going to let this go but this idiot will argue with you all day long and not be offended because there again you haven't showed the science that you guys are relying on, just your thoughts and observations! And your rants and 8th grade lets pick on the new guy will not make me leave this site! SO pat your backs thump your chests hoop and holler find every little mistake I make it doesn't bother me nor dose it impress me ! AS I stated I run a very successful company implementing these ideas every day, and I am teaching draft animal logging as I said before its not a hobby its a life ! How many of you commenting here run your own side or do you all work for the man!


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## madhatte (Feb 10, 2011)

Fun fact: it costs the landowner money, out of pocket, to get and maintain FSC certification. I know this because I work on a FSC-certified forest, and our annual audit is coming up again. What FSC certification buys you is A) lack of nosy intervention from the state (mostly) and B) the ability to (sometimes) command a premium for your timber on the auction block. As neither are 100% guaranteed, the FSC certification is more of a feather in a landowner's cap than anything else. 

Nobody's trying to pick on anybody. This is a civil discussion. There's only one person worked up here, and that person is holding a minority view. Fact is, as stated many times before, there's no "one-size-fits-all" treatment for forests. It is the thoughtful consideration given a sale that makes it or breaks it. A poorly-executed thin is no better than a poorly-executed clearcut, and letting "nature take its course" via stem exclusion is not a commercially viable route, either. We make decisions, succeed or fail, learn from mistakes and try not to make the same ones again. This is life.

Yeah, I'll get that third round. I think I want something 100-proof.


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## horseloger (Feb 10, 2011)

slowp said:


> Well, yah, but does that mean it is sound forestry? We're already seeing the results of forestry by how the "majority" (loudest screamers) wants. Gee.
> 
> My work here is done. This is not logical. Hey Randy, can I come in the bar too? I'll wear my purple shoes. . :beat-up::drink:
> 
> I like my Jack, Yukon. On ice, please.


 
slowp you say you are already seeing the results of forestry by the loudest screamers well just to let you know I can go into wilderness areas you speak of and do horse logging if I wanted to we do it here in the mark twain national forest quit often if more people like your self would quit thinking of this as a hobby then maybe your timber thats all locked up could be managed but I bet it would only be done in an environmental way, so maybe you would not want to be involved!


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## redprospector (Feb 10, 2011)

horseloger said:


> well as I said before you show your ignorance in the way you talk yes I would be glad to talk animal husbandry with you my horses only use 10.00 a horse 2.00 per day for i bale of hay, grain is two pounds per day a 60 pound of oats last one month and that equates into 14.40 a month divided by 30.50 days = 2.11 per day for oats 1 salt block per month at 7.00 per block so 2.00+2.11+.22 = 4.33 shoes run 28.00 every three months 90 days divided into 28.00 =.31 for a total of $ 4.64 per horse I rounded off to the nearest dollar so I dont know what they taught you in that school but as usual you try to implement your ideas of what you think onto some one else and you dont look at the facts! I contacted some FSC foresters I know out on the west coast and they agreed the stands in the pictures were still intact and growing fine so your conclusion that theses stands do not hold up is not altogether true ! There again you have to look at all the factors involved to make a good plot! And i was going to let this go but this idiot will argue with you all day long and not be offended because there again you haven't showed the science that you guys are relying on, just your thoughts and observations! And your rants and 8th grade lets pick on the new guy will not make me leave this site! SO pat your backs thump your chests hoop and holler find every little mistake I make it doesn't bother me nor dose it impress me ! AS I stated I run a very successful company implementing these ideas every day, and I am teaching draft animal logging as I said before its not a hobby its a life ! How many of you commenting here run your own side or do you all work for the man!


 
Ignorance is when you haven't been taught something. Stupidity is when you can't be taught something. I'm sorry I disapointed you by not being offended. I didn't realize I was supposed to be offended, you just haven't said anything to offend me, until you called me an idiot, but I'm pretty thick skinned. I don't think anyone is trying to make you leave this site. Tell us about the day to day of horse logging, I'm interested.
I've got my own operation..............I guess that would make me *THE MAN!*
Like I said earlier, I don't want to play anymore. Tell us about horse logging.

Andy


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

madhatte said:


> Fun fact: it costs the landowner money, out of pocket, to get and maintain FSC certification. I know this because I work on a FSC-certified forest, and our annual audit is coming up again. What FSC certification buys you is A) lack of nosy intervention from the state (mostly) and B) the ability to (sometimes) command a premium for your timber on the auction block. As neither are 100% guaranteed, the FSC certification is more of a feather in a landowner's cap than anything else.
> 
> Nobody's trying to pick on anybody. This is a civil discussion. There's only one person worked up here, and that person is holding a minority view. Fact is, as stated many times before, there's no "one-size-fits-all" treatment for forests. It is the thoughtful consideration given a sale that makes it or breaks it. A poorly-executed thin is no better than a poorly-executed clearcut, and letting "nature take its course" via stem exclusion is not a commercially viable route, either. We make decisions, succeed or fail, learn from mistakes and try not to make the same ones again. This is life.
> 
> Yeah, I'll get that third round. I think I want something 100-proof.


 your absolutely right about the FSC program but there again is not the FSC principles based on proven science ? and I have never maintained that there is only one way to do things just that clear cuts are what causes our industry the bad rep it gets as I said people would much rather see a job like the FSC picture than a clear cut so if we want to get the environmental people out of our hair then maybe we should try to do something about it! As far as being in the minority view thats fine by me but personal attacks and name calling in my world is something to get one worked up!


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Ignorance is when you haven't been taught something. Stupidity is when you can't be taught something. I'm sorry I disapointed you by not being offended. I didn't realize I was supposed to be offended, you just haven't said anything to offend me, until you called me an idiot, but I'm pretty thick skinned. I don't think anyone is trying to make you leave this site. Tell us about the day to day of horse logging, I'm interested.
> I've got my own operation..............I guess that would make me *THE MAN!*
> Like I said earlier, I don't want to play anymore. Tell us about horse logging.
> 
> Andy


 
I never called you an idiot I said it was ignorance and you stated your definition of ignorance is when you haven't been taught something, When were you taught about my expenses for my horse when were you taught about my math skills And Im glad you run your own show I fixed some of my Ignorance about what I know about you now didnt I am not stupid as you say I have learned a lot in my life and that is what I am trying to do is share some of that knowledge that I have but some on here keep insisting there way is the only way and not showing me the facts behind it


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## RandyMac (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh dear!

One of the most wasteful, destructive periods of historic logging, was done with animal power. Only the steam era was worse. 
Tell us the advantages that horse power has and what logging it does best.
Some of us have more interest in hearing about logging, than carrying on.
We do listen, we are active, we are from everywhere and now we have a horselogger.
Pictures are always good.

Gary is up for the 4th or are we at six?


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2011)

Okaaaaaaay, I think I've got it figured out. Calvin moved to Missouri and started horse logging.


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## RandyMac (Feb 11, 2011)

Jesus Christ!


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## Gologit (Feb 11, 2011)

Well?


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## redprospector (Feb 11, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I never called you an idiot I said it was ignorance and you stated your definition of ignorance is when you haven't been taught something, When were you taught about my expenses for my horse when were you taught about my math skills And Im glad you run your own show I fixed some of my Ignorance about what I know about you now didnt I am not stupid as you say I have learned a lot in my life and that is what I am trying to do is share some of that knowledge that I have but some on here keep insisting there way is the only way and not showing me the facts behind it


 
That's a load off my mind. I'm certainly glad it wasn't me that you called an idiot. I'm sure you can see how I could make that assumption, since that post started out replying to me, and I didn't notice any one elses handle mentioned to indicate otherwise. 
As far as being taught about you. You've been feeding us bits of information for several posts. As far as fixing your ignorance about me, you don't have to work so hard at it. Just ask, I'll tell you just about anything I want you to know.
Now tell us about horse logging.............please.

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 11, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Gary is up for the 4th or are we at six?


 
Damn Randy, you guys are gonna make a cyber-drunk out of me. 

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 11, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Okaaaaaaay, I think I've got it figured out. Calvin moved to Missouri and started horse logging.


 
Bob, I do believe that is the most logical explination I've heard for this annomaly.  

Andy


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## slowp (Feb 11, 2011)

horseloger said:


> slowp you say you are already seeing the results of forestry by the loudest screamers well just to let you know I can go into wilderness areas you speak of and do horse logging if I wanted to we do it here in the mark twain national forest quit often if more people like your self would quit thinking of this as a hobby then maybe your timber thats all locked up could be managed but I bet it would only be done in an environmental way, so maybe you would not want to be involved!



OH MY GAWD! 

Nobody, not nobody talks about logging wilderness. You'd have to use miserywhips, you'd have to take it clean out to a road outside of the wilderness boundary, you'd have every treehugger and hiker-- maybe even me, chained up to the scraggly trees up there to stop you. 

You could not "log" a wilderness area, legally. Even if you "wanted" to. Not only would you be paying out some money, the people who let you do so would probably get an unpaid vacation. 

Please explain when and how you logged in a wilderness area? Does the Mark Twain forest have a wilderness area? Or are you now talking about trail maintenance, using misery whips? 

Okay boys, we're on the fourth or fifth round and I am a happy drunk. I'll now buy and go home with an empty wallet. Tarzantrees, I'll share my Yukon.


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes we do maintenance and yes we use misery whips and we have been contacted by the forestry service to work on beetle kill in Colorado wilderness area with chainsaws and delivery too designated areas to be choppered out ! So if anybody will be let in it to wilderness areas it will be the horse loggers who do low in-pack logging !


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

These are some pics of some of the folks I know and deal with will have some more later
1 Is a skid trail that we work on for 6 months
2is a pic of John Plowden demonstrating the use of a bob sled at the MOFGA demonstrations
3 Is Chad Vogel using his logging arch to move some big poplar


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

thanks tree co


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## madhatte (Feb 11, 2011)

"Chad Vogel" -- why does that name sound familiar?


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## forestryworks (Feb 11, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Okaaaaaaay, I think I've got it figured out. Calvin moved to Missouri and started horse logging.


 
Somebody rep Bob for me, that was pretty funny


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## forestryworks (Feb 11, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Ok learned something there thanks


 
Here's you a good book to read on the subject.

The Big Burn: Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire That Saved America


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## RandyMac (Feb 11, 2011)

Now we are getting somewhere. How do you load the logs on the truck?
I have seen A frames that would be easy to build and could be powered by horses.

found some old pics.

http://content.wisconsinhistory.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/cwdp&CISOPTR=249&CISOBOX=1&REC=7


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## horseloger (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes you can use a a frame but we use a knuckle boom loader that I made that fits on a f450 ford that I have or we stock pile and have trucks come in with loaders


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## Greystoke (Feb 12, 2011)

slowp said:


> OH MY GAWD!
> 
> Nobody, not nobody talks about logging wilderness. You'd have to use miserywhips, you'd have to take it clean out to a road outside of the wilderness boundary, you'd have every treehugger and hiker-- maybe even me, chained up to the scraggly trees up there to stop you.
> 
> ...


 
Yukon is too sweet for me, but after reading this thread, anything would suffice!


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 12, 2011)

Sustainable may just be another 'buzzword'. Lets face it, the trees are gonna be around alot longer than we are. This doesn't give us the right to hammer the resource, but it has been shown repeatedly that nature can look after itself regardless of what we do. We might screw it up in the meantime, but not in the long run.
In 1895, Morley Roberts decribes what it was like to walk thru a Redwood forest in his book, "The Western Avernus."

'And suddenly the path grew level, and I came out in the aisle of a forest cathedral.

I was in the Redwoods, the most majestic of all trees, save their elder brethren, the gigantic sequoias.

These were huge and solemn, some ten feet and more in diameter at the butt, rising bare of branches to two hundred feet above me, where they spread out in thick crowns, that darkened yet more the obscure and misty air of night.

My road still ran thru the redwoods, and if they were solemn and weird at night, they were more beautiful in the daytime.

These had grown for so many centuries, and had such great life in them, they were so grand and solemn and king-like, that I felt they had personality.

It seemed nothing short of murder to hew and saw them down for planks and post-making, for house-building, and shelter for little men, who lusted to destroy them in an hour the slow, sweet growth of their unnumbered years.

But men come and destroy them, as barbarians in the pathetic, silent senate-house, and nature lies wounded and bleeding.'
(Crescent City)


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## Greystoke (Feb 12, 2011)

I guess that would make Randy, Bob, and maybe a few others on here along with myself that have slew some old growth Redwoods, Barbarians? In that case, I am proud to be a Barbarian!:msp_smile:


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## floyd (Feb 12, 2011)

Something to be proud of.


Some differences in animal powered vs machine ectraction.

- Start at the back of the unit & work foward...hard to skid thru slash.

- If skidding tree length it is limbed in the woods

- It is not worth the effort to deck very high, Self loader can move faster than it 
takes to deck more than 4 or 5 high

- Production is not always the 1st priority

Some things in common

- Directonal falling is used alot

- People have fun out there

- A true professional is good at it


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## joesawer (Feb 12, 2011)

Wow I guess you don't have to have good reading comprehension or spelling skills to get a degree from Purdue! Lol
And plagiarism is generally frowned on and sources are usually given in higher education. Lol
Maybe that degree and millions of board feet are as real as those ten dollar a day draft horses.


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## joesawer (Feb 12, 2011)

At one time, long before evil clear cutting came on the scene much of the western half of the continent was covered in old growth Sequoia. Now it just exists in a narrow band on the western slope of the Sierras.
I wonder what evil man made act we can blame the lose of those millions of acres of old growth red wood on.
Some people think that just because we wanna harvest trees efficiently that we hate trees and the environment. That is like saying a rancher hates cows or a sheep herder hates sheep. 
I don't want the forest to go away or even decrease. I want it to increase and thrive. But I don't buy all the knee jerk emotional lies spread by those who want to destroy everything but themselves.


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 12, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> I guess that would make Randy, Bob, and maybe a few others on here along with myself that have slew some old growth Redwoods, Barbarians? In that case, I am proud to be a Barbarian!:msp_smile:


 Yes, anyone who cuts a redwood is a Barbarian, however anyone hewing the mighty Canadian sugar maple is purer than the driven snow! Lol
John


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## RandyMac (Feb 12, 2011)

Barbarians? Huh? Where?


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 12, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Barbarians? Huh? Where?


 
They all became tree huggers and leaf kissers. Lol
John


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## RandyMac (Feb 12, 2011)

Gypo Logger said:


> They all became tree huggers and leaf kissers. Lol
> John


 
Oh yeah.
Take your coors lite and go sit on the porch John.


Us barbarians get the seats nearest the stove, within reach of the whiskey. Who wants a cigar?


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 12, 2011)

RandyMac said:


> Oh yeah.
> Take your coors lite and go sit on the porch John.
> 
> 
> Us barbarians get the seats nearest the stove, within reach of the whiskey. Who wants a cigar?


 
Lol, not a problem, my porch is made of redwood and I'm chasing tequila with the Coors lite. Is that barbarian enough for ya? lol
John
BTW, don't you think you should be staying on topic???
John


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## RandyMac (Feb 12, 2011)

Gypo Logger said:


> Lol, not a problem, my porch is made of redwood and I'm chasing tequila with the Coors lite. Is that barbarian enough for ya? lol
> John
> BTW, don't you think you should be staying on topic???
> John


 
Kinda wandered off, it happens.

John, you do the best you can, with what you have to work with.

Sustainable logging is measured in time.
It depends on the operator. How many hours in one day, were you able to sustain logging?


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## slowp (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm thinking about switching to Tide. It takes sustains off a bit better than Costco's stuff.


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## horseloger (Feb 12, 2011)

joesawer said:


> Wow I guess you don't have to have good reading comprehension or spelling skills to get a degree from Purdue! Lol
> And plagiarism is generally frowned on and sources are usually given in higher education. Lol
> Maybe that degree and millions of board feet are as real as those ten dollar a day draft horses.


 Well as usual your showing your ignorance! Anything that you do not know about and dosnt conform to your ways you try to cut down ! I explained to you the cost of operation, and you call me a liar when you have no Idea what your talking about It must make you real proud to be so intelligent but I think you show your self for what you certainly what you are ! So what do you think it cost to feed a horse shoe or do you know anything about it at all ! So as I said before beat your chest slap your back and be the manly man you are because thats the only thing you can do


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## horseloger (Feb 12, 2011)

Gypo Logger said:


> Sustainable may just be another 'buzzword'. Lets face it, the trees are gonna be around alot longer than we are. This doesn't give us the right to hammer the resource, but it has been shown repeatedly that nature can look after itself regardless of what we do. We might screw it up in the meantime, but not in the long run.
> In 1895, Morley Roberts decribes what it was like to walk thru a Redwood forest in his book, "The Western Avernus."
> 
> 'And suddenly the path grew level, and I came out in the aisle of a forest cathedral.
> ...


 
Well that says it all as I said before if that timber had been managed correctly then maybe you guys would still be in big timber you wont see that again! It defiantly wont be clear cut and you people can cry in your pretzels all you want but it wont change the fact that what you have had, you have destroyed ! where is the science wheres your proof that your way is the only way! You say you want too here about horse logging and as soon as other people post you guys start in and try cutting them down The trees your thinning now will never be the trees that were there and you say Im in the minority but I think in reality you folks are in the minority and thats why your so intent on proving every other way is wrong other than yours ! And I know you folks weren't responsible personally for most of this, the problems is you want to hold on to these ideas that destroyed your way of life . And all the name calling and nick picking will never bring that back ! Logging will continue but in a way different way than your use too ! And I not trying to win any essay or writing contest so if you dont like the way I wright then dont look at my posts!!!!!!!!!


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## horseloger (Feb 12, 2011)

Hey floyd your not from floyd co va are you ?


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## Gologit (Feb 12, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> I guess that would make Randy, Bob, and maybe a few others on here along with myself that have slew some old growth Redwoods, Barbarians? In that case, I am proud to be a Barbarian!:msp_smile:


 
Yup...sign me on as a Barbarian. Do we get hats?


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## Gologit (Feb 12, 2011)

*Question about horse logging.*

I've been hearing a lot about horselogging in the wilderness areas. I think it's a great idea but I have a question.

Since everything you pack into a wilderness area has to be packed back out, what do you do with the horse poop? I mean, the horses eat grain and hay, none of which is a native plant in the wilderness area. The horses, being normal horses, poop. The poop contains seeds. If the seeds take root wouldn't that be a violation of the non-native plant species regulation?

So what's the answer here? Lot's of buckets? Really big diapers? Poop sterilization procedures? I'm really curious about this.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

You burn it


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2011)

Even during times of high fire danger? And doesn't fresh horse poop need a pretty hot fire to sterilize it?


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

No of corse not at those times you would ether have too pack it out or bauiry it any regular fire should sterilize it but in most cases you shouldn't have to worry about it because deer elk and most other animals in the forest eat from the same grass lands that the horses do ! and this question has never come up before they allow horse back riding in the wilderness areas and I dont think they requirer them to do anything spacial as far as I know! But thats a good question!


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## lfnh (Feb 13, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I've been hearing a lot about horselogging in the wilderness areas. I think it's a great idea but I have a question.
> 
> Since everything you pack into a wilderness area has to be packed back out, what do you do with the horse poop? I mean, the horses eat grain and hay, none of which is a native plant in the wilderness area. The horses, being normal horses, poop. The poop contains seeds. If the seeds take root wouldn't that be a violation of the non-native plant species regulation?
> 
> So what's the answer here? Lot's of buckets? Really big diapers? Poop sterilization procedures? I'm really curious about this.



Really big diapers -lmao, maybe xxxxxxL Pampers...

actually good question. short answer it depends where you are.

Most Western states now make you pack in certified (by state) weed-free hay.
yeah, it's gotta have a tag on it or color tied. Grain is ok IF it's commercial grain.
If not, no go.

Used to be free graze was a no brainer on National Forests and Wilderness Areas.
That's all changed/changing like everything else. Safest to pack it in, unless you have a grazing permit or know for certain free graze is allowed in your area of work.
All this applies to horse, mule, lhama, etc.

People were stupid careless and invasive plants have gotten a foothold and have ruined alot of good ground.

The whole grazing thing is another inferno of lawsuits by people that have to much time on their hands and money to burn.


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## floyd (Feb 13, 2011)

No I am not. I live where men are men & sheep are scared.

In some watersheds it is a requirement to diaper the animal. Don't ya love it?
Yup. OK, now here is why. Wildlife eat & live there. Horses are brought in, they don't eat there. So, they will have different bugs in their gut vs. the bugs in the 
resident wildlife. Same bugs in the soil. So everyone is used th those bugs & no citiots get sick. 

I never worked where I had to diaper my animals.

USFS requirements have been discussed, certified weed free hay. You should see some of it. 110# bales maybe 2'x2'. Pressed, just like the hay shipped overseas in containers.

Sort of related.. there are "bun bags" that hang off harness, or a saddle, to catch manure before it hits the street or trail. I never used one & I would not in heavy draft work in the field or the brush.
------------------------
Just a little aside here...close your eyes & hear the bells above the roar of the Minam. Then look around & here comes 17 heavy boned black pack mules, head & tailed, going up the double switchback at a trot. The bell tones are as clear as church bells.
Kind of like looking up in a redwood or sequoia grove, eh?


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2011)

lfnh said:


> .... another inferno of lawsuits by people that have to much time on their hands and money to burn.


 

Very true. And they're not usually directly involved in, or economically affected by, the the causes they commit themselves to.

Thanks for the information on horse feed etc. Good post. I probably won't ever do any work in a formal wilderness area but I've always been curious about it.


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## slowp (Feb 13, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Very true. And they're not usually directly involved in, or economically affected by, the the causes they commit themselves to.
> 
> Thanks for the information on horse feed etc. Good post. I probably won't ever do any work in a formal wilderness area but I've always been curious about it.



I have signed up for a trail work session, which is free. But I don't know if I get to go or not. 

If I go, which hardhat to take? The old MacDonald T which probably wouldn't do the job if something came down from the sky, or the brand new blue hat, on which I will need a sticker to make it look more authentic?

Ooops, I am straying. Did you know that they did have to have diapers on the horses that logged the Tacoma Watershed? 

We were not allowed to even drive through the Seattle one when there was a fire going and that was the short way. But after a few days of pow wowing we got to enter it and dig line.


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## ChainsawmanXX (Feb 13, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I've been hearing a lot about horselogging in the wilderness areas. I think it's a great idea but I have a question.
> 
> Since everything you pack into a wilderness area has to be packed back out, what do you do with the horse poop? I mean, the horses eat grain and hay, none of which is a native plant in the wilderness area. The horses, being normal horses, poop. The poop contains seeds. If the seeds take root wouldn't that be a violation of the non-native plant species regulation?
> 
> So what's the answer here? Lot's of buckets? Really big diapers? Poop sterilization procedures? I'm really curious about this.


 
Well i guess horse poop would be alot better than motor oil all over the place :msp_blink:

You'd think they wouldn't care about the horse poop considering the bear poops in the woods haha


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2011)

slowp said:


> I have signed up for a trail work session, which is free. But I don't know if I get to go or not.
> 
> If I go, which hardhat to take? The old MacDonald T which probably wouldn't do the job if something came down from the sky, or the brand new blue hat, on which I will need a sticker to make it look more authentic?


 
I could send you another Explosives sticker...or would that make people nervous?


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## slowp (Feb 13, 2011)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> Well i guess horse poop would be alot better than motor oil all over the place :msp_blink:
> 
> You'd think they wouldn't care about the horse poop considering the bear poops in the woods haha



The saddle horses poop on the trails, which seems to bother some of the hikers. It is easy enough to kick off. Our area has horse camps that are on the edge of the wilderness area. 

The trail in the Grand Canyon was running green when we backpacked back up. There'd been a snow, which the mules turned green, then there was a lot of green runoff.
That was a bit of a shock as I thought National Parks were into keeping things neat and tidy. 

Yes, equipment leaks. Most operators carry stuff to absorb it. On contracts here, there is a Prevention of Oil Spills section, and if there is a large amount of fuel or oil stored, like on a helicopter landing, there has to be a spill prevention plan submitted. That usually consists of some kind of barrier put around the fuel truck to keep the fuel from spreading out should a spill occur.


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## slowp (Feb 13, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I could send you another Explosives sticker...or would that make people nervous?


 

Perfect. And I have a Columbia Helicopters one somewhere. :msp_biggrin:


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

Well there again chainsaw xx they can carry in invasive species that could cause damage and there again the city folks dont like seeing poop in there trail, but just like using chainsaws in wilderness areas that I'm sure can be negotiated out in the contract! As with every thing else there has to be some give and take!


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## Greystoke (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> So what do you think it cost to feed a horse shoe or do you know anything about it at all !



Not sure how much it costs to feed a horseshoe:monkey: I do know how much it costs to shoe a draft horse...round these parts is about $150-$200 every four to six weeks...more if you are using them for logging as they need caulks. BTW, I have shod a few horses, went to MSU horseshoeing school to get my education so I now KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT SHOEING HORSES 



horseloger said:


> Well that says it all as I said before if that timber had been managed correctly then maybe you guys would still be in big timber you wont see that again! It defiantly wont be clear cut and you people can cry in your pretzels all you want but it wont change the fact that what you have had, you have destroyed ! where is the science wheres your proof that your way is the only way! You say you want too here about horse logging and as soon as other people post you guys start in and try cutting them down The trees your thinning now will never be the trees that were there and you say Im in the minority but I think in reality you folks are in the minority and thats why your so intent on proving every other way is wrong other than yours ! And I know you folks weren't responsible personally for most of this, the problems is you want to hold on to these ideas that destroyed your way of life . And all the name calling and nick picking will never bring that back ! Logging will continue but in a way different way than your use too ! And I not trying to win any essay or writing contest so if you dont like the way I wright then dont look at my posts!!!!!!!!!



You know pard, you don't even deserve to grab hold of a powersaw, or set foot in the woods...with all of your ignorance, you claim to be a logger, but I have always felt like it was a brotherhood, and I have been a part of the best brotherhood out there in the logging world, and you would definitely not make the grade in my world. What do you think every major city in a forested part of our country is? It is a CLEARCUT! You went to Purdue, did you not read history books? Every major city in a forested environment started out right in the heart of the best timber, with a Sawmill. Look at pictures of the old days and see big stumps lining the streets. All the seed eatin granola hippies in San Francisco (and every other tree huggin liberal city on the West Coast) should thank Loggers and Clearcuts for their wonderful cities. It pisses me off when some ignorant maggot forgets those facts, so the next time you start bashing clearcuts, you better stop and think about what really kicked started this great country of ours. And you call yourself a Logger?? You definitely don't deserve that title, because you don't even know what it takes to be one. A real logger...it's in his blood, and he is proud to be part of the brotherhood! Nuff said?


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2011)

slowp said:


> Perfect. And I have a Columbia Helicopters one somewhere. :msp_biggrin:


 
Done deal. Keep the Columbia sticker for yourself though. " No vendor endorsements" rule, ya know.

Besides, I got bored yesterday and put all new conspicuity tape on my MacT...no room for stickers now. :msp_wink:


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## madhatte (Feb 13, 2011)

I have a bumper sticker that says "Legalize Lutefisk!" but it's too big for a helmet.


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## slowp (Feb 13, 2011)

I had one that said, "It's hard to be humble when you are Norwegian!" But I traded that car in. 

My Earth First one wore out. Time to order a new one or two. 

What a gorgeous day it is today! I've been splitting wood and doing hot tub maintenance, and entertaining the Used Dog..multi-tasking.


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## floyd (Feb 13, 2011)

so, does the earth first say something about we will log the rest ot the planets later?


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## ChrisF (Feb 13, 2011)

madhatte said:


> I have a bumper sticker that says "Legalize Lutefisk!" but it's too big for a helmet.



Haha, I love it!

(the sticker, not the food. Lutefisk is horrible)



slowp said:


> "It's hard to be humble when you are Norwegian!"



In-freaking-deed!


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## Gologit (Feb 13, 2011)

ChrisF said:


> Lutefisk is horrible


 
I've always thought that when you went to visit somebody and they served you lutefisk, that maybe it was a not so subtle message of some kind. 

Does _anybody_ really _like_ that stuff?


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## Samlock (Feb 13, 2011)

I do. Boiled and served with white sauce. Delicious!


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## slowp (Feb 13, 2011)

floyd said:


> so, does the earth first say something about we will log the rest ot the planets later?


 
Yes. I have the place bookmarked where I got them.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> Not sure how much it costs to feed a horseshoe:monkey: I do know how much it costs to shoe a draft horse...round these parts is about $150-$200 every four to six weeks...more if you are using them for logging as they need caulks. BTW, I have shod a few horses, went to MSU horseshoeing school to get my education so I now KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT SHOEING HORSES
> 
> 
> 
> You know pard, you don't even deserve to grab hold of a powersaw, or set foot in the woods...with all of your ignorance, you claim to be a logger, but I have always felt like it was a brotherhood, and I have been a part of the best brotherhood out there in the logging world, and you would definitely not make the grade in my world. What do you think every major city in a forested part of our country is? It is a CLEARCUT! You went to Purdue, did you not read history books? Every major city in a forested environment started out right in the heart of the best timber, with a Sawmill. Look at pictures of the old days and see big stumps lining the streets. All the seed eatin granola hippies in San Francisco (and every other tree huggin liberal city on the West Coast) should thank Loggers and Clearcuts for their wonderful cities. It pisses me off when some ignorant maggot forgets those facts, so the next time you start bashing clearcuts, you better stop and think about what really kicked started this great country of ours. And you call yourself a Logger?? You definitely don't deserve that title, because you don't even know what it takes to be one. A real logger...it's in his blood, and he is proud to be part of the brotherhood! Nuff said?


 i dont know where to start with a moronic comment like this! And I dont know if I should waste my time but icant let this rest! Who are you to decide who should work in the woods? did god or somebody come down an bang you on the head and say your the one , I dont think so !
As far as your comment about being a student at msu I think thats wounder full is that where they taught you too gouge your costumers 150 to 200 a horse is outrageous unless its for some type of restorative shoeing, So that proves your character ! As I have stated in past post I do my own shoeing when I need it most of the time I let the horses go barefoot because that is actually better for there hoofs! But ether way I do most of my own work to avoid scammers like you!
As far as citys being clear cuts you are absolutely right they were clear cuts and thats why theres no sawmills there now because they used up everything in the area and moved on leaving ground that was no good for farming so they built towns! And they kept moving on until they reached the west coast and the public got tired of there land being destroyed after they mowed everything down and there was nothing left! Thats why your facing the regulations that are here It doesn't have anything to do with Hippies it has every thing to do with the American people speaking out and saying enough is enough,and you dont like it because you cant go out and rip and tear any way yo want in the name of profit ! There is nothing wrong with making a profit on your work but if you do it at the expense and the destruction of the natural resource that is making your profit then your are a fool not a good logger ! I dont need your approval nor do I want it I have faith that what I am doing is right and have plenty of people that agree with me.And thats more than I can say for you because most of the general consensus is that clear cutting is not expectable ! So the only Ignorant person is you for trying to think loggers are the only ones that make this country great they did a big part but they were not the only ones!


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Really big diapers -lmao, maybe xxxxxxL Pampers...
> 
> actually good question. short answer it depends where you are.
> 
> ...


 Do you do work for the forestry system with horses or just do a lot of riding ? and your right about the law suits and stuff but its more like people with more money than brains:msp_laugh:


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## floyd (Feb 13, 2011)

First time I saw that saw that was on a tricked out truck in the Gorge. I about died laughing.


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## Greystoke (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> i dont know where to start with a moronic comment like this! And I dont know if I should waste my time but icant let this rest! Who are you to decide who should work in the woods? did god or somebody come down an bang you on the head and say your the one , I dont think so !
> As far as your comment about being a student at msu I think thats wounder full is that where they taught you too gouge your costumers 150 to 200 a horse is outrageous unless its for some type of restorative shoeing, So that proves your character ! As I have stated in past post I do my own shoeing when I need it most of the time I let the horses go barefoot because that is actually better for there hoofs! But ether way I do most of my own work to avoid scammers like you!
> As far as citys being clear cuts you are absolutely right they were clear cuts and thats why theres no sawmills there now because they used up everything in the area and moved on leaving ground that was no good for farming so they built towns! And they kept moving on until they reached the west coast and the public got tired of there land being destroyed after they mowed everything down and there was nothing left! Thats why your facing the regulations that are here It doesn't have anything to do with Hippies it has every thing to do with the American people speaking out and saying enough is enough,and you dont like it because you cant go out and rip and tear any way yo want in the name of profit ! There is nothing wrong with making a profit on your work but if you do it at the expense and the destruction of the natural resource that is making your profit then your are a fool not a good logger ! I dont need your approval nor do I want it I have faith that what I am doing is right and have plenty of people that agree with me.And thats more than I can say for you because most of the general consensus is that clear cutting is not expectable ! So the only Ignorant person is you for trying to think loggers are the only ones that make this country great they did a big part but they were not the only ones!


 
Whatever little troll...keep livin in your little fantasy world  Too bad that your ignorant ideals are supposedly tolerated in your area. I would love to see a fine specimen of a logger like you show up on a job site where I have worked and start spouting off the way you have on this thread...you would be laughed all the way back to the hole you come from with your tail between your legs.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

tarzanstree said:


> Whatever little troll...keep livin in your little fantasy world  Too bad that your ignorant ideals are fupposedly tolerated in your area. I would love to see a fine specimen of a logger like you show up on a job site where I have worked and start spouting off the way you have on this thread...you would be laughed all the way back to the hole you come from with your tail between your legs.


 No i wouldn't go home with my tail between my legs now maddhatte lets talk about threats and insults


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## Meadow Beaver (Feb 13, 2011)

Well, this thread has given me a headache, I see why everyone is talking about booze. 

I think sustainable forestry means different things, in different places, to different people.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

Yes there is more than one way to do sustainable logging and clear cuts do have there place, but only when disease or infiltration of foreign spices have dominated an area and they need to be removed ! And this is based on scientific principles
And this tread was to discuss the different ways of sustainable logging not bash anyone with a different way of operating!


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## madhatte (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> No i wouldn't go home with my tail between my legs now maddhatte lets talk about threats and insults


 
I gave you a warning in the hope that you would calm down, and nobody would have to escalate the level of moderation required. Please understand that I am charged with helping keep the peace here, and am attempting to do the very same. It's nothing personal.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

I understand and am willing to cooperate but when every other post is a slam of what I say do or think I am going to defend myself ! I didn't start with the bashing I am only trying to express my opinion and just because my opinion is not what they want to here then they bash you ! And if I am that far off the mark then why did the US courts agree with the science im following


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## paccity (Feb 13, 2011)

Gologit said:


> I've always thought that when you went to visit somebody and they served you lutefisk, that maybe it was a not so subtle message of some kind.
> 
> Does _anybody_ really _like_ that stuff?


 
only during the holidays, and then not a lott of it, ah the smell.:msp_biggrin:


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## madhatte (Feb 13, 2011)

HL, kindly check PM.


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## paccity (Feb 13, 2011)

horeslogger, some times it can be hard to express a way of doing something with out coming across as arogant, . just a thought? :msp_smile:


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## hammerlogging (Feb 13, 2011)

slowp said:


> I'm thinking about switching to Tide. It takes sustains off a bit better than Costco's stuff.


 
NICE ONE!!

Randy's cracked me up to, how long can you sustain logging

I've avoided this one but I will point out something to consider- there is some exceptional timber being cut out of Pennsylvania/New York, extremely high value, up where captain steep is from, that is the regrowth from a sustainable forestry nightmare, its all residual cherry from commercial clearcutting in the early 1900's was understory overlooked trash, now its *killer* timber.

I'm with Madhatte, its all about the soil. Less roads, less skid trails, more suspension. 

Leaching is NOT the same as erosion. Leaching is a chemical process.

As I've said before, my wife told me I can log with horses when I retire from logging. 

Argh. I tried to stay out!


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## redprospector (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I understand and am willing to cooperate but when every other post is a slam of what I say do or think I am going to defend myself ! I didn't start with the bashing I am only trying to express my opinion and just because my opinion is not what they want to here then they bash you ! And if I am that far off the mark then why did the US courts agree with the science im following


 
Dang! I took a little break for a day or two, come back, and this crap is still going on? 
I can't believe you're crying about getting slammed, or bashed, or whatever when you were the one who came out calling us all ignorant, idiots, etc. etc. etc.
Are any of those US court judges loggers? I wonder how much they know about what they're making decisions on? 
Buck up Buttercup!

Andy


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## redprospector (Feb 13, 2011)

paccity said:


> horeslogger, some times it can be hard to express a way of doing something with out coming across as arogant, . just a thought? :msp_smile:


 
Not always what you say, but how you say it.

Andy


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> NICE ONE!!
> 
> Randy's cracked me up to, how long can you sustain logging
> 
> ...


 Well first of all if they left the weed trees that wouldn't be considered a sustainable harvest that is high grading and the reason the cherry came back and made what you call killer timber was that the over story was released and the cherry took dominance. And then were allowed to mature with out disturbance for 90 years because it had a land owner that managed it correctly! Leaching is NOT the same as erosion. Leaching is a chemical process. leaching is the proses of water removing nutrients from the soil in the process of erosion that is the damage it dose. And horses use less roads less skid trails and more suspension.


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## horseloger (Feb 13, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Dang! I took a little break for a day or two, come back, and this crap is still going on?
> I can't believe you're crying about getting slammed, or bashed, or whatever when you were the one who came out calling us all ignorant, idiots, etc. etc. etc.
> Are any of those US court judges loggers? I wonder how much they know about what they're making decisions on?
> Buck up Buttercup!
> ...


 I said based on the science that the judges made the decisions on if they have the proper information in front of them, then they should be able to make the proper judgement thats what judges are there for to evaluate the evidence placed in front of them and make a decision base on the facts ! Then what do you call it if its not bashing like I said any time you guys here something you dont like you start in bashing them you automatically labeled me some sort of hippie tree hugger and didn't even considered that there might be a better way only they way you guys think it should be done ! I was under the understanding that this forum was to discuss new Ideas and exchange knowledge not run the guy into the ground because he operates in a different way than you do! So if I came on here and started attacking your operation your knowledge in the way you folks have done to me, you would defend yourself too SO buck up buttercup .


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## lfnh (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Do you do work for the forestry system with horses or just do a lot of riding ? and your right about the law suits and stuff but its more like people with more money than brains:msp_laugh:


 
Did do work for BLM and FS for fuel load mapping -ground truthing for aerial estimating; forest and wilderness trail clearing and maintenance; packed rode, grunted and swore in Wyoming and Eastern Oregon. 
Built my own harness, rigging, and pack saddles. Have skidded and hauled earth and rock with horsepower - both kinds. 
Have owned and run long horns on forest and blm grazing allotments in E Oregon and put up with cut fences and smashed gates from elk and "concerned guardians of the forest".

Have clearcut ROW tracks for electric transmission lines. Actually it was complete deforestation. Have also done selective cutting for stand health.

Have worked and seen some ground with best and worst forest harvest and mangement. Same goes for ranching.

The times we are in now, it seems extremes in thinking prevail and lawsuits severely hamper best management practices for the resource. The cost of compliance and regulatory mis-direction are being underwritten by the taxpayer and end consumer. One size fits all proscription is not likely to succeed.

just my opinion.

Mods - appolgies for topic detour.


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## madhatte (Feb 13, 2011)

lfnh said:


> The times we are in now, it seems extremes in thinking prevail and lawsuits severely hamper best management practices for the resource. The cost of compliance and regulatory mis-direction are being underwritten by the taxpayer and end consumer. One size fits all proscription is not likely to succeed.



SHA-ZAM

That's not a detour at all, that's right on. I'd rep you but I'm out.


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## paccity (Feb 13, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Did do work for BLM and FS for fuel load mapping -ground truthing for aerial estimating; forest and wilderness trail clearing and maintenance; packed rode, grunted and swore in Wyoming and Eastern Oregon.
> Built my own harness, rigging, and pack saddles. Have skidded and hauled earth and rock with horsepower - both kinds.
> Have owned and run long horns on forest and blm grazing allotments in E Oregon and put up with cut fences and smashed gates from elk and "concerned guardians of the forest".
> 
> ...


 
sounded on topic to me.


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## redprospector (Feb 13, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I said based on the science that the judges made the decisions on if they have the proper information in front of them, then they should be able to make the proper judgement thats what judges are there for to evaluate the evidence placed in front of them and make a decision base on the facts !


 
Ok, now explain away the snot and tears.

Andy


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## horseloger (Feb 14, 2011)

redprospector said:


> Ok, now explain away the snot and tears.
> 
> Andy


 
No snot and tears just the facts


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## horseloger (Feb 14, 2011)

lfnh said:


> Did do work for BLM and FS for fuel load mapping -ground truthing for aerial estimating; forest and wilderness trail clearing and maintenance; packed rode, grunted and swore in Wyoming and Eastern Oregon.
> Built my own harness, rigging, and pack saddles. Have skidded and hauled earth and rock with horsepower - both kinds.
> Have owned and run long horns on forest and blm grazing allotments in E Oregon and put up with cut fences and smashed gates from elk and "concerned guardians of the forest".
> 
> ...


 
no one size doesn't fit all and thats just it if the facts are presented to the powers that be and the public in the right way maybe some of the law suits would be stopped . And the end consumer is going to win out no matter what you do they that hold the gold make the rules and they are saying they dont like clear cutting unless it serves there purpose! IE power lines home sites so on and so forth


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## redprospector (Feb 14, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I said based on the science that the judges made the decisions on if they have the proper information in front of them, then they should be able to make the proper judgement thats what judges are there for to evaluate the evidence placed in front of them and make a decision base on the facts ! Then what do you call it if its not bashing like I said any time you guys here something you dont like you start in bashing them you automatically labeled me some sort of hippie tree hugger and didn't even considered that there might be a better way only they way you guys think it should be done ! I was under the understanding that this forum was to discuss new Ideas and exchange knowledge not run the guy into the ground because he operates in a different way than you do! So if I came on here and started attacking your operation your knowledge in the way you folks have done to me, you would defend yourself too SO buck up buttercup .


 
I hate it when someone edits a previous post after I've quoted it. :msp_angry:
You're doing exactly what you're accusing everyone else of doing. You evidently do "selective cutting", and you come in here telling everyone that clear cutting is the work of the devil, and is not acceptable. It was discussed that there should be different prescriptions for different situations. In one post you'd agree with that, and in another you'd say that those who have worked on clear cuts, and agree with their use is stupid.
People won't usually attack you if you don't come in swinging. You might not need to defend yourself if you didn't attack in the first place.
I do selective cutting too. Not because I agree with what you say, but because clear cutting doesn't work well in this region. It is very dry here and the trees grow very slowly. The survival rate in planting seedlings is very low, so we do selective cutting. You, like a lot of others seem to be trying to apply the "science" for your region to everywhere.
Science is based on fact's, and both are subject to change.

Andy


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## Meadow Beaver (Feb 14, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Yes there is more than one way to do sustainable logging and clear cuts do have there place, but only when disease or infiltration of foreign spices have dominated an area and they need to be removed ! And this is based on scientific principles
> And this tread was to discuss the different ways of sustainable logging not bash anyone with a different way of operating!


 
You've got it backwards dude. 

And, you're the one not excepting others perspectives towards types logging. If you weren't so against the thought of clear-cut logging you might learn something form people who have been there and done that.


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## redprospector (Feb 14, 2011)

horseloger said:


> No snot and tears just the facts


 
Hahaha. I understand and am willing to cooperate but...................................they're picking on me, and calling me names, and bla, bla, bla.
Like I said. Facts are subject to change.
I haven't seen you present anything but opinion, and attitude.

Andy


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 14, 2011)

Lots of Sustainability going on in this thread! Lol

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=18877


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## hammerlogging (Feb 14, 2011)

horseloger said:


> over story was released and the cherry took dominance.
> 
> leaching is the proses of water removing nutrients from the soil in the process of erosion that is the damage it dose.
> 
> And horses use less roads less skid trails and more suspension.



Not true, not true, and not true.


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## forestryworks (Feb 14, 2011)

horseloger said:


> foreign spices


 
Black Pepper?


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## slowp (Feb 14, 2011)

On the topic of judges being the deciders...

A judge made a couple of decisions on a couple of sales here. He decided that ground based logging--that would include horses, would be too harsh on the soils.
So, skyline had to be used. There were old skid trails from the past, no signs of erosion, they'd healed up, but it had to be skylined. 

Judges make decisions based on technicalities, sometimes extremely small technicalities in documents. They do not get out of their office. They do not know what is on the ground. They are not foresters. Would you want a judge deciding how best to remove your appendix? That's what has happened in the woods.

The ground was not shaped right. Intermediate supports had to be rigged up, and they were not called for during the planning process. Downhilling of some parts had to be done. It looks good, but was a pain for the loggers to do. 

Did I read a line about horses getting better suspension than anything out there?
Do you have flying horses? 

On horses needing less roads? What is your maximum skidding distance you can do and make money doing so? I've always figured a quarter mile for skidders. 
Helicopters can go farther, as can a yarder.

We are pointing out that horse logging is not the ONLY way to log and it is not even feasible on most of the ground WHERE I LIVE AND WORK. Now it may be in Missouri or Arkansas or where ever you live.

We are selling timber that grew in the clearcuts of the 50's and 60's and it is good straight, nice timber. That's my definition of sustainable. 

Read my signature please.


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## floyd (Feb 17, 2011)

What has not been mentioned is horses in the brush bunching to a fowarder. Could be horse powered as well. Some guys have them. 

I have used blocks & cable, a 1/4" main line, to go where it was too steep for the team.


To me that is trying to compete with machine logging. It is real different out there just talking trash to your team while you move wood. A guy still has to saw some but it is mostly quiet.



The suspension talked about involves an arch that raises the front of the log modeled after the arches pulled by crawler tractors yrs ago. Not too handy on the sides of canyons


Any moron with a team can trash a skid trail ...just like any moron with a rubber tired skidder or crawler can.


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## horseloger (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes And you can also high line over a creek or gully with the right set up!


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