# epa laws in PA



## chugbug (Dec 25, 2009)

Can someone help me find the recent post about the new strict laws in pa on OWB , I can't seem to find it , thanks


----------



## PA Plumber (Dec 25, 2009)

Found this. Maybe you've already gotten this far?

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/DEPUTATE/AIRWASTE/AQ/openburn/docs/ModelBoilOrd.pdf


----------



## chugbug (Dec 25, 2009)

Think I saw that one , wasn't there one just posted this past week or so , something about the new very strict regulations for PA . 

PA plumber , hows it going ?? I think you were the one that told me where I could find xp husky oil in Bloomsburg , I appreciated your help and wanted to let you no that the next size up bottle is much cheaper but renco doesn't have them , I found them at a very small dealer in Hunlock creek , about 20 miles north of Bloomsburg. You get almost twice as much for a few cents more money .


----------



## PA Plumber (Dec 25, 2009)

Sorry, I just don't remember that.

I do remember a 372 in New Bloomfield that we discussed. The fellow was asking just a tad too much.

But... you are welcome!


----------



## WidowMaker (Dec 25, 2009)

This should get you in the ball park

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/aq/openburn/docs/outdoor_wood-fired_boilers.pdf


----------



## flotek (Dec 25, 2009)

thanks ed rendell ...first its phase one ..then 2 ..then what ? they get completely phased out ? a 1 dollar tax on every split you own ?gotta pay for those expensive clean air programs somehow !welcome to impeding government control of your life right down to what you heat your families home with and burn in the privacy of your backyard .tax and spend tax and spend ,democrats wont be happy till they regulate and tax every aspect of your existence in the name of being politically correct ,tolerant and non objectionable even if its making false crisis situations ..after all they gotta save you from yourself because they know ultimately whats best for you and your family and making a buck off it just sweetens the deal.its sad and a foolish self defeating cycle ..dumb people keep voting these same guys in and wonder why they lose little portions of their freedom bill by bill and they get the same results from the same leftys each time .i dont want the government telling me what to do ,i know whats best for me and my family ,i want my own personal freedom to make my own decisions without every little thing being regulated and taxed and people sneaking around my area looking for laws or regulations being broken.the crooks in office dont have the right to force their will on the people ,they are supposed to run the post office(now its bankrupt btw ) and protect us from enemy foreign intrusions.the yhave big problems to worry about like our record unemployment our debt ,our wars ..instead they are further bankrupting our country by the day and cramming their bad ideas down our throats


----------



## WidowMaker (Dec 25, 2009)

Yuo ain't seen nothing yet...Wait til they get control of health care. That will be the spring board to TOTAL control under the guise of "it's unhealthy"


Welcome to the USSA!!!

Were you can't runa chain saw, or burn wood......


----------



## Slick (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey Chugbug, that was me with the XP oil at Renco, thanks for the heads up. They are right around the corner from me so I was getting it there but your right the small bottle add up, I switched to Bailey's synthetic but I'll grab some XP form the Hunlock Creek guy if I'm up that way. 

Those 2 links kind of cover what I got in the mail a few weeks ago from Central Boiler about what PA is trying to do...it's basically 150 feet from any property line, think it was stack 2 feet above any residence within 500 feet if not EPS certified, 150 feet if EPA certified and there were some dates to stay within but I didn't pay attention to those, I don't burn in the summer. It's the 150 from property lines I'm close to, just pacing it off I'm right at 150 from 3 lines...my stack is close to 20ft and I think I'd still have to raise it more to stay away from the 500 feet rule they are proposing, what will really suck is it's my own rental house next door that is 3 stories and would be the highest around....


----------



## flotek (Dec 25, 2009)

notice how they say its in a certain phase of the ~compliance and theres different levels ,and those are the current requirements required NOW ,once in effect and its common place the requirements become stifffer until the eventual outlawing takes place becuase they are terribly dangerous to wildlife and the ozone also grossly intolerant of your neighbor and will surely cause his whole family and dog to die of cancer ..they always seem innocent enough at first to keep the complaints and backlash down ..the real question is when will enough be enough ?what will phase 4 and 5 be in 2 or 3 years


----------



## chugbug (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey Slick, sorry for the confusion , Iv'e talked to both of you I guess and got it mixed up , if you want directions let me know . 

These regulations are ridiculous !! I can't help but think the oil companies are at the root of it all .


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 25, 2009)

It is my understanding that this is NOT yet law, but is in fact proposed. No matter it plain *****. I fully understand that there are places where OWB's just should not be. I cannot say that I disagree with the banning of burning garbage and items such as treated wood. But the 500 ft rule for stoves and chimney heights in regards to stoves installed prior to this ruling is just unacceptable, about like buying a car that is legal for sale then passing new laws and dictating that you have to make your old car meet the new standards.

I will have to check Benscoters in Hunlock Creek for bar oil, I drive past him 3 days a week. I saw the husky sign on his building but did not realize he sold saws, just thought he did the lawn tractors. He also has a poulan pro sign up.


----------



## PAwoodchopper (Dec 25, 2009)

How close are they to becoming laws ?????


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

PAwoodchopper said:


> How close are they to becoming laws ?????



Unsure, but I did get a bunch of signatures on letters to DEP and my state rep regarding this. I will be checking with her shortly and would suggest everyone do the same. If we do not let the legislators know our feelings this will slide right through.

For all of those that heat with an inside stove instead of an OWB, you need to join our fight, because you will be next. These type of people never stop, they just pick you apart one piece at a time.


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Non EPA inside wood stoves should be next!



So I take it you favor banning of all wood stoves regardless of type that are not epa certified?


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If they are high emission, yes.



So it does not matter to you that many people spent thousands of dollars to install these stoves that there was no regulation on, even people that made a purchase like weeks ago...they should just roll over and flush the money they spent down the drain. 

Now if the govt wants to buy me a new stove because they changed the rules mid game MAYBE I could accept it, but not like this.

So what is next for you, can I drive my classic car? How about older tractors and lawn mowers? Are you going to throw your non epa saws away? Where does it end for you?


----------



## Slick (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm with Storm....they don't ban older cars when they come up with ways to make car emmision cleaner. What's worse, millions of cars driving around with old pollution controls burning oil/gas/diesel or people burning wood? I'm all for saying you can't burn trash, I agree with putting something on the books that can be enforced so if someone is burning trash etc and a zoning guy catches them they get fined or something but come on...I could burn perfectly seasoned wood with a 20+ ft stack and be over 400 feet from a neighbor and not be legal if this crap is passed.....


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I've little to no concern about people who believe they have the right to heat using high emission wood burning devices and using wood heat as a stepping off point to rant on the evils of the EPA.
> 
> Stop fouling the air and giving wood heat a bad name!



These stoves were legal when purchased. If they want pass a law that states they have to meet a certain emission standard from now on, so be it. But I have NO tolerance for attitudes like you have displayed to regulate prior purchases and installations that were LEGAL when installed. 

Or are you just trolling...


----------



## havenodog (Dec 26, 2009)

I agree with you Slick. Those whose only source of heat is wood are they to be forced to be compliant with the epa when they change the rules mid-game? I do not make alot of money and to go out and buy a compliant wood furnace at this point in time would almost put me in the poor house. They have no right to pass this kind of legislation especially now that global climate change has been proven a massive money grubbing hoax. But I don't want to hijack this thread. Sorry. Anyway the govt. cant even control underbrush in our national forests which causes massive fires and tons of so called greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere. and they're going to ban non-compliant stoves? How many wood stove or fireplace chimneys or owb stacks would it take to put the same pollutants (so called) into the atmosphere as one 10,000 acre forest fire? Give me a break TreeCo. All the chimneys in this country blowing smoke is miniscule in comparison and the earth just keeps plugging along merrily on its own way as God intended.


----------



## havenodog (Dec 26, 2009)

Dittos for Storm too


----------



## Slick (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> If they are high emission, yes.



Your in favor of banning the selling of high emission stoves or banning the use of them?


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Not trolling at all. Being legal at the time of sale has little to do with a stove that may last for 20 or more years. It's a big problem with high emission indoor stoves.......EPA limits on emissions have been in effect for 20 years now but some of these stoves are going to last for decades longer. There needs to be a cut off date.....and there is going to be! It's happening around the country as we type and it is a good thing.



You never answered my question: How far do you go or does it end with the EPA stoves? I have seen your type many times and you always squeal the loudest when the winds of change hit you. 

As far as it being a big problem I guess it depends on whose research you believe. I do NOT believe in the govt controlling every aspect of my life and telling me how to live. 

By the way I am going to smoke some bologna for the next 12 hours at really low temps, should that be outlawed too?


----------



## gwiley (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This has nothing to do with the encroachment on our rights that the EPA is undertaking. I might be able to understand some concern in very densely populated areas but even then I think they are overstepping. What they are doing impacts even very rural housing and goes beyond ridiculous.

One good forest fire a year or a volcano send more "pollutants" into the air than we can dream of with or without catalytic converters etc. 

The bottom line is that wood burning is a net 0 green house gas contributor - the plants that we burn pulled that carbon out of the air to begin with! 

If a small region has air quality issues due to geography/topography and population issues then I understand LOCAL regulations, but the EPA is overstepping in a huge way.


----------



## 603doug (Dec 26, 2009)

I would like to see real unbiased numbers on the amount of non complaint heating appliances and what kind of effect neg or pos( yes you can show me all types of data to support your attitude but so can algore). There is another forum (good info source) that everyone who uses a owb or some non Massachusetts approved burner is the cause for every type of pollution problem that going to kill us all. Do not get me wrong I do not want to add problems to the environment that will effect our future on this planet but I also want moderation and deliberate steps that work not like this health care approach that will prove a detriment to our future generations because we like our power and want ways to expand it. Well need to add wood to my "outdoor phase 1 approved boiler"


----------



## Slick (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So if you want the use of non-epa stoves banned how do you suggest the government enforce that? Guess they would be walking into everyone's house? Good luck with that..., people freak when a zoning guy drives past their house and now everyone should let them walk in to look for an EPA stamp on a stove? 


By the way TreeCo, what kind of car do you drive? Hope it has the highest emissions rating in existance TODAY or else you might have to sell it....heck my daily driver is an 09' hybrid and the 10' has some new emission checks, guess I should plan on it being illegal soon? 

Again I ask, why don't emissions standards make past cars illegal but they should on stoves?


----------



## 603doug (Dec 26, 2009)

You are right this is a wood heat forum but now that there could be many restrictions imposed by an uninformed group we need to be aware as a group to prepare for or accept changes and maybe help in the changes in regs to better tackle the problems than a shotgun approach


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 26, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> This is a wood heat forum and I'm sticking to the subject of wood heat. If you want to spout off about politics there is a political forum here somewhere.....share your angst with them!



Another thing about you guys is that you always want to change the subject when the going gets a little tough. And you still did not answer any of my questions which is no surprise. Maybe you should move to Europe or something, I hear they are all green over there. I will keep my guns, money and freedoms, you can keep the change.


----------



## WidowMaker (Dec 26, 2009)

In this instance the two are inseperatable...


----------



## flotek (Dec 26, 2009)

teaching a lefty socialist about common sense and morality is like trying to teach a pig to sing ,it wastes your time... and annoys the pig  
if the epa/government said tomorrow all woodburning appliances are banned regardless of if there certifed or not he would be fine with it ,in fact like any good sheep ,he would be fine with whatever king barry or the epa says even if it took away our rights as americans.remember they know whats best for you and your family and are only trying to make the world a happy tolerant place for all trees and slime covered toadstools


----------



## wampum (Dec 26, 2009)

I sold a lot of stoves in Pa back in the 70's and 80's. Non of them at that time were so called EPA approved,because the EPA had not ruled on it yet. This is almost the same argument as Global Warming. In the early 80's a lot of knowledgeable people claimed that in the end a log rotting in the forest put out as much c02 as a log in a fire,its a natural thing. I heard a professor at Notre Dame say this at a seminar for wood stove dealers. The only problem is the smell or residue from what you burn.I was amazed at the amount of towns out in Colorado where I hunt that have banned burning wood. Most of these towns are over built and tucked into a small mountain area. I can understand why they get upset over burning wood,because they are too crammed together. Burning toxic stuff like ties is not a good idea,that only hurts good burners that burn good dried wood. At one time I could literally pee in my front yard and never be seen. We use to look when a car went by,because we were lucky to see 2 or 3 a day. Now we might get that many a minute. I burn 2 stoves one is EPA approved the other is a 30 year old Fisher. I have never had a complaint from any neighbor,several times they have commented on the nice smell a wood burner puts out. 60 years ago,we had a lot of coal burners,I have noticed a few coming back. People have to have heat,I am with you guys let the feds butt out and leave the rural areas alone. However,how many think they are going to go away? They are not,I wish I was wrong but big brother has landed,and we are all going to pay the price,just because they think they know best. Its going to get exciting boys,global warming,health care,epa,you name it,its just a big power and money grab. They are all rip-offs,but somehow I think we are still going to pay.


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 27, 2009)

I would just like clarify my position on this issue. I could support some COMMON SENSE type of regulation GOING FORWARD from where we are today. I have no problems with the banning of garbage burning, burning of man made woods such as plywood, pressure treated woods, masonite etc. I do not even mind that some REASONABLE type of standards are applied to FUTURE wood stoves. There are settings in which OWB's are not practical, I understand that. But to take the big sloppy paint brush that the liberal tree hugging gore/obama fans want to use to paint us all with is RIDICULOUS. 

There are plenty of democracies that the liberal left wing loons have already ruined. This country was supposed to be different. READ OUR CONSTITUTION. If you do NOT like it here the way it is, then no one is stopping YOU from LEAVING. Go live somewhere that supports your position. LEAVE US ALONE. If you really dig on this crap of saving the world from pollution and global warming, then go to CHINA and preach. They spew out more PM in the air in one day than all the wood stoves in the US do in several years. 

I for one am sick and tired of the govt telling me what is good for me and how to live my life. READ the STUPID regulation in this legislation that is being CRAMMED down our throats. If this GARBAGE is passed, you can be fined $1000 to as much as $2500 PER day or spend 90 days in jail for each day that you burn your stove if it does not conform to their RIDICULOUS standards. You can beat up old ladies, rob and steal, use illegal drugs just to mention a few things and get less punishment than burning your wood stove for 2 weeks. That my friends is RETARDED LEFT WING LUNACY at it FINEST.


----------



## chugbug (Dec 27, 2009)

I for one am sick and tired of the govt telling me what is good for me and how to live my life. READ the STUPID regulation in this legislation that is being CRAMMED down our throats. If this GARBAGE is passed, you can be fined $1000 to as much as $2500 PER day or spend 90 days in jail for each day that you burn your stove if it does not conform to their RIDICULOUS standards. You can beat up old ladies, rob and steal, use illegal drugs just to mention a few things and get less punishment than burning your wood stove for 2 weeks. That my friends is RETARDED LEFT WING LUNACY at it FINEST.
__________________
Good point I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 27, 2009)

Maybe he should change his name to Eco TreeCo!


----------



## flotek (Dec 27, 2009)

fortunately for some members they are allowed to spew their nonsense and arent banned for there ideology on here ,simply because stupidity is not a ban-able offense.as mentioned a little common sense is in order sadly our current administration does not have any ..obviously if your burning trash ,truck tires ,dead raccoons and smoking up entire city blocks then that is an issue that needs addressed ,you simply find the bonehead and take it on a case by case basis you dont fine and regulate and basically ruin it for everyone even those who are responisble .


----------



## Slick (Dec 27, 2009)

wish I had my camera with me today, drove past two house with some type of indoor fire place/stove etc who's chimney was lower than my OWB and was smoking more than my OWB even at start up...and I heat two buildings with mine...


----------



## bore_pig (Dec 27, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> Maybe he should change his name to Eco TreeCo!


:agree2:
Old stoves can be burned just as clean as anything else.


----------



## Slick (Dec 27, 2009)

Point is it's user error, not equipment error....you can't idiot proof the world....and nobody wants the government trying to....


----------



## Slick (Dec 27, 2009)

Not debating selling EPA rated stoves, you said previously purchased OWB should be EPA certified or banned, that is just silly, did they do that in 1989 with indoor wood stoves? 

Still waiting to hear what vehicle you drive????


----------



## flotek (Dec 27, 2009)

i suppose all cars boats planes helicopters weedeaters lawnmowers atvs etc. made before 1989 should be destroyed becuase they certainly dont meet the strict current standards according to a government agency ...and all this at taxpayers expense of coarse ..so where does the madness end ?*you dont throw the baby out with the bath water
sorry for your stupid neighbor but if someone is being foolish and irresponsible then yes fine them or whatever ,but you dont force everyone in existence to succomb to becuase theres a couple bad apples who burn tires in their stoves .


----------



## Slick (Dec 27, 2009)

Vehicles have set the standard for emissions and cause more issues to the environment and our lungs than burning of anything that grows in nature ever could....so yeah, it would be good for you to not talk about it, won't go well for your theory that new emissions laws should effect previously purchased equipment...


Just put my last load of the day in the OWB...watched a nice belch of whatever come out of my neighbors heating oil burning house....something tells me that wasn't just heat I saw coming out...yeah, my wood smoke is bad for us  

To bad the forests don't have lobbyist like the auto makers and oil companies do, their new emissions standards don't effect past purchases right treeco....


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 28, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in discussing vehicles.





Yeah.......wouldn't want to put your foot in your foot in your mouth or eat your own words.


We all understand why you won't go there.


Interested in discussing chain saws then?



How eco friendly is your two stroke chainsaw? Any visible smoke or odor? What about noise pollution?


Would you take offense if some Eco Whacko came on here and told you that all chainsaws should be banned?

You could cut with an axe or manual saw, they'd say.


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 28, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Slick it sounds like you are burning clean...good for you!
> 
> 
> It a shame a small percentage of OWB abusers have drawn so much attention. It wasn't but just a few years ago we had guys bragging about burning tires and all kinds of trash in their OWB's...but oddly...they have quieted up these days.




What bothers me about your stated position in this thread is that you want to ban every non EPA stove for what you have now admitted are a few people that are causing problems. I like Slick only burned seasoned wood in my stove. I do not have close neighbors. I have invested thousands of dollars in my setup, yet you have no problem banning my operation that you have NEVER even laid eyes on, and that you could care less about MY HARD EARNED INVESTMENT and considerable labor that it has taken to put it all together. Throw it all away, screw you and go to **** as far as you are concerned. As I stated in an earlier post, you want to take that big sloppy govt paint brush and do away with us all.

That attitude I have a HUGE problem with.


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 28, 2009)

I personally feel TreeCo should be banned from the forums. 

No different if Al Gore himself were on here preaching the same thing.

I belong to a few hunting forums. Anyone that comes on an starts preaching ANYTHING that is anti hunting is banned.

Be a good idea here!


----------



## Slick (Dec 28, 2009)

Good point about the chainsaws.. yet another good example of putting new emissions standards in place and not banning previous equipment, so that's wood stoves, chainsaws, automotive does it constantantly, even gas etc furnaces and air conditioners...they up the seer rating on AC units all the time and make it illegal to sell lower than a certain rating...but they don't make you remove the old AC units already in use. 

Can anyone think of an efficiency or emissions type level that has been set for consumers that actually made it illegal to use any of the previously rated equipment like this proposed PA law does? Where is the precedence for this?


----------



## gwiley (Dec 28, 2009)

Windwalker7 said:


> I personally feel TreeCo should be banned from the forums.
> 
> No different if Al Gore himself were on here preaching the same thing.
> 
> ...



While I understand your idea I don't think that creates the most healthy environment for discussion. Treeco has good/helpful stuff to say on other topics - I just choose to not bother reading the silliness.

I like the fact that folks can openly disagree - remember we don't have to follow a particular thread or read/respond to a particular post.


----------



## wampum (Dec 28, 2009)

gwiley said:


> While I understand your idea I don't think that creates the most healthy environment for discussion. Treeco has good/helpful stuff to say on other topics - I just choose to not bother reading the silliness.
> 
> I like the fact that folks can openly disagree - remember we don't have to follow a particular thread or read/respond to a particular post.



I agree,I have disagreed with Tree a lot over the years. How ever I find a lot of knowledge in some of his posts and respect his right to his opinion. He made the statement that people have the right to breath. I agree with this,if you are burning garbage in an area where your neighbor has to breath it,you are wrong. We should all exercise common sense. I hate to see any new law written by the government,pertaining my personal rights. If common sense would have been used in the past,ma-be these laws would not even be considered. One thing I feel should be done,is it should be on a case by case situation. In other words if you are a responsible burner and no one is complaining then you should be allowed to continue. If you are burning garbage,and this effects your neighbors well being,by all means you should be made to conform. As far as guns or hunting are concerned,start talking about how you poach or shoot animals and leave them lay,or shoot close to and in the direction of a home. Most common sense hunters would disagree with you and want you stopped. Garbage burners are not using bullets but the stink from their stove is pretty bad. Like I said there has to be middle ground where common sense comes into play. I also agree that owners of old stoves should be grand fathered in. You burn clean dry wood,you are okay,but your next stove will have to comply.


----------



## ray benson (Dec 28, 2009)

If you search this forum you will see lots of info on OWB regulations and proposed standards. Restricting emissions on OWB's is coming .There are companies that make OWB's that meet the proposed standards. If I wanted to install one I would pick from that group.


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 28, 2009)

ray benson said:


> If you search this forum you will see lots of info on OWB regulations and proposed standards. Restricting emissions on OWB's is coming .There are companies that make OWB's that meet the proposed standards. If I wanted to install one I would pick from that group.



I do not believe that any of us that have posted on this thread have disagreed with some reasonable standards on FUTURE installations after the standards are established. The problem is that the EPA in Pennsylvania wants to impose their own unreasonable standards on EXISTING stove installations. This type of action is unprecedented. Never has this been done before with consumer products. Not in automotive, small engine, marine, motorcycles, snowmobiles, atv's, you name it. New standards were applied after a certain date and everything prior to that was grandfathered in.


----------



## olyman (Dec 28, 2009)

they tried to do this very same thing, in a cty just north of cr,ia--luckily--people found out soon enough--:censored::censored:


----------



## zeliespecwriter (Dec 29, 2009)

*Write the PA EPA!*

I received a letter from my state rep stating to send my concerns about the new regulations to the Environmental Quality Board, P.O. Box 8477, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8477 or submit my comments electronically by going to [email protected]. Comments must be received by January 4, 2010. It is funny how the state legislature has given so much power to the Department of Environmental Protection. Hopefully the letter made it as an attachment to this post.


----------



## LTREES (Dec 29, 2009)

Some people just don't care. they burn green wood and crap that causes a 100 ft. smoke cloud. My CB is in its 2 nd year burning. I have 2 new EPA Jotul stoves in my house which smoke alot more than the CB. My wife is upset we have 4k worth of stoves we don't use. I'm pissed cause my 22' stack is not going to be high enough. I put all my chips into 1 stack to save money in the long run. The gov. says that I have to work over time to buy oil and take the 12k you spent and flush it down the drain. If I am not offensive to my neighbors, leave me alone. Fine the offenders and educate them, leave Pa alone.

LT...


----------



## trouba (Dec 29, 2009)

I think EPA stoves are a bunch of BS I can make my new EPA stove smoke a lot, its all in how you run them, on the same note I can burn my 1942 Warn Morning stove as clean as most people burn their EPA stoves. The whole thing is a JOKE and were the ones paying the bill.

*"Don't Tread on Me"*


----------



## wampum (Dec 29, 2009)

LTREES said:


> Some people just don't care. they burn green wood and crap that causes a 100 ft. smoke cloud. My CB is in its 2 nd year burning. I have 2 new EPA Jotul stoves in my house which smoke alot more than the CB. My wife is upset we have 4k worth of stoves we don't use. I'm pissed cause my 22' stack is not going to be high enough. I put all my chips into 1 stack to save money in the long run. The gov. says that I have to work over time to buy oil and take the 12k you spent and flush it down the drain. If I am not offensive to my neighbors, leave me alone. Fine the offenders and educate them, leave Pa alone.
> 
> LT...



Good post:


----------



## trouba (Dec 29, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> So you can make an EPA stove smoke a lot. Have you ever wondered what the outcome would be if you ran an EPA stove to the best of your ability?



TreeCo I guess you missed the point of my post. I was just stating that I can make my old stove burn clean, or burn with a EPA stove just as dirty as a non EPA stove (not run by me I run mine to the best of my ability). The only time you ever see any evidence ie smoke from my old stoves are when first lit and when it has been reloaded, humm come to think of it the same holds true when it comes to my EPA stove. Sooo for your information I do run my all my stove's to the best of my ablity no smoke dragons here, and I still think all this EPA stuff is just a bunch of BS. 

This is a picture of an old stove.


----------



## wampum (Dec 29, 2009)

zeliespecwriter said:


> I received a letter from my state rep stating to send my concerns about the new regulations to the Environmental Quality Board, P.O. Box 8477, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8477 or submit my comments electronically by going to [email protected]. Comments must be received by January 4, 2010. It is funny how the state legislature has given so much power to the Department of Environmental Protection. Hopefully the letter made it as an attachment to this post.



Martin,Jaret will once again probably get my vote. He actually walked up through the field where I was splitting wood and told me who he was and he was running for state rep. Seems like a pretty common sense down to earth kid. I will watch how he votes on this. If he is being honest he will get my vote,if not I will vote against him. Thanks for the info Dave.


----------



## trouba (Dec 30, 2009)

"The arguement is old and you lost it a long time ago"

Thats what the British thought just before they lost that thing called the Revolutionary war. 

I never said EPA stoves were bad I just don't think there that great either, and as far as hating the EPA I never said that but I have seen them in action. My dad used to own a gas station that was contaminated they dug up the site hauled all the dirt to a landfill buy the Cedar River where it was supposed to be spread out and tilled so it could air out (they had a more technical term you know EPA speak). Well to make along story short the dirt never was spread out and the river flooded and years later it still sat in piles. The trucking for that alone cost over 100 thousand dollars in 1990s money so forgive me if I seem a little leary of this big government agency.

"Is Central Boiler just BS'ing us?" yep that is a nice setup but I would like to see that boiler run in the real world I don't doubt it can run as efficient as they say I just doubt that its 100% of the time (glad to see we can agree on something). Plus its kinda hard to put that in my living room. I am just speaking of my experience with my stoves not boilers. Big city government has already dictatorship I mean dictated I cant have one of those. 

*Don't drink the kool-Aid the polar bears aren't dieing. *


----------



## Mike PA (Dec 30, 2009)

Treeco: The point of the PA regs is not efficiency, it is to reduce airborne particulate matter. Trouba's point is simply that an old stove can and does burn well with little visible exhaust. Do the EPA stoves do better generally: yes. But, properly operated, many non-EPA stoves put out very little smoke. 

It's a common practice when arguing a point to shift the focus of the argument slightly so that you (collective, not you personally) are still correct. This is what Treeco did in his post to Trouba. He shifted the argument from smoke and particulate matter to efficiency. These are two different arguments, and not the point of the PA regs. The PA regs are simply to reduce smoke and to eliminate smokers. As someone else said, it would be better to deal with the offenders than to punish the good burners. It's just like in High School when the teachers couldn't figure out who did what, they just punished the whole class because of a bad egg. Wasn't right then, not right now.

The bottom line is too much government interference. We are steadily giving more and more control to the government to "protect" us. When are we going to learn to "protect" ourselves?


----------



## Mike PA (Dec 30, 2009)

You know what kills me about this? The DEP, in their vast wisdom, set several public meetings concerning OWB to occur during the first few days of rifle season here in PA. Who do you think is using these stoves the most? Pretty cowardly move by the DEP, if you ask me.


----------



## RON58 (Dec 30, 2009)

Are you kidding me ? Sounds like our township meetings here,They hold them mornings during the week so ya gotta take off work to attend. Hell, not many can do that these days. I'm gonna need to work all I can to pay all my wood burner fines????????? WE ARE IN TROUBLE


----------



## Butch(OH) (Dec 30, 2009)

I have not taken the time to read the proposed Pa regs but if they are anything at all like the ones proposed here in Ahia my problem with them lies more with the ever more far reaching powers of EPA than with pollution. Think about it? Your OWB must be "X" feet away from the property line, Your stack must be "X" feet high. What is it with that crap? Is the EPA a pollution control agency or an extension of the damned land use and zoning Nazis?? I wrote my state representative and asked, "If my OWB pollutes in my neighborhood then is it not polluting in the middle of 4000 acres??" Without rewriting my entire letter to them I basically told them to ban them all,,, or none, but stay the heck out of zoning and land use, they have no power or authority there. Stack heights are the same issue, how does raising a stack change pollution? If the stack emissions are killing the my fellow man or mother earth at 10' it is killing them at 35'. Raising the stack only thins out the smoke so neighbors are not bothered by it, RIGHT? so I ask again, is that and EPA issue?? or a land use and zoning issue? 

I own a OWB, I have close neighbors, I am an independent, land owners rights and conservative SOB, but I can see where there are places that OWBs do not belong because the operator is an idiot, or the direction of prevailing winds. But those things are not for the EPA to decide, it is a local land use issue, aka zoning.

Keep the land use and zoning, pollution and MORAL issues separated and this whole OWB pollution deal is easier to understand and make sensible comment about.

I feel better now, thanks for listening. Now I am getting cold so Im going out to throw a tire in the OWB,,, a 13" one not a 20" because the 13" pollute less and I care about the environment, and today I burn tires because the wind is blowing away from my close neighbor and into the open field beside me.

That line of thought makes about as much sense as the proposed regs,,, well dont it???


----------



## gwiley (Dec 30, 2009)

Butch(OH) said:


> I own a OWB, I have close neighbors, I am an independent, land owners rights and conservative SOB, but I can see where there are places that OWBs do not belong because the operator is an idiot, or the direction of prevailing winds. But those things are not for the EPA to decide, it is a local land use issue, aka zoning.
> 
> Keep the land use and zoning, pollution and MORAL issues separated and this whole OWB pollution deal is easier to understand and make sensible comment about.



Very well said - rep coming your way.


----------



## trouba (Dec 30, 2009)

Mike PA said:


> Treeco: The point of the PA regs is not efficiency, it is to reduce airborne particulate matter. Trouba's point is simply that an old stove can and does burn well with little visible exhaust. Do the EPA stoves do better generally: yes. But, properly operated, many non-EPA stoves put out very little smoke.
> 
> It's a common practice when arguing a point to shift the focus of the argument slightly so that you (collective, not you personally) are still correct. This is what Treeco did in his post to Trouba. He shifted the argument from smoke and particulate matter to efficiency. These are two different arguments, and not the point of the PA regs. The PA regs are simply to reduce smoke and to eliminate smokers. As someone else said, it would be better to deal with the offenders than to punish the good burners. It's just like in High School when the teachers couldn't figure out who did what, they just punished the whole class because of a bad egg. Wasn't right then, not right now.
> 
> The bottom line is too much government interference. We are steadily giving more and more control to the government to "protect" us. When are we going to learn to "protect" ourselves?



Thanks well said, its kinda hard for the layman to judge particulate matter. I would venture most of the complainers aren't complaining about particulate matter their complaining about smoke. 

I suppose the day will come when we will all have to license our wood burning devices, own particulate matter measuring apparatus, test every day compile our results and send that along with our check to the government for all the rules and regulations we broke. Because we all know this isn't about the environment its about money and control.

*particulate matter measuring apparatus*





Features

* Simultaneously measure and display 6 channel of particle sizes, temperature and humidity
* Measure particle size down to 0.3 µm
* Selectable sample time, count data, programmable delay
* Store 5000 records of date, time, counts, relative humidity, temperature, sample volumes, alarms and location label
* Upload stored data to a PC with included software
* Compact, self-contained package allows for one-handed operation
* Intuitive, easy to use user interface
* Always ready to run, with no fluids to refill
* Backlit LCD for use in any lighting condition
* 8 hour rechargeable NiMH battery
* Protective holster

*All this for like 4 grand I cant wait for the future.*


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 30, 2009)

I just returned from a visit with our state rep's office, Karen Boback. I did not get to speak with Karen but did spend a considerable amount of time with her assistant. They were only recently aware of this proposed DEP law, primarily by the letters which I had previously sent to her office. The wave is starting to build as she has been checking into it and has been contacted by other concerned constituents. 

There will not be a vote by the state house and senate on this law as the DEP has the authority to pass such a law. What is happening is that people around the state are contacting their reps and voicing their concern and dissatisfaction with this proposed law. I was informed that a group of republicans are forming to mount a formal complaint with the DEP.

We MUST keep the pressure on! PLEASE if you own an OWB, or are thinking of getting one, and are from PA, take a few minutes of your time and CALL, WRITE a letter or better yet, STOP IN to your reps office and let them know how you feel! We are starting to get some traction on this matter but need more people to get involved.


----------



## Booshcat (Dec 30, 2009)

Sounds to me like Treeco has his. He has his 21 acres, his epa stove, and his elitist attitude. I bet the one thing Treeco doesn't have is a lack of money.
Thats usually when these types start telling us what "we" need to do to solve the worlds problems. My guess the reason that he won't discuss vehicles is that what he drives is probably worth more than many of us could dream of ever affording. Hows that hope and change thing working out for everyone? If you don't work for the government in America, you will soon be screwed.


----------



## Slick (Dec 30, 2009)

My guess is Treeco is driving a gas guzzling monster...

I just sent and email to show my opposition to the implementation of these regulations and called a few fellow OWB owners I know, none of whom know this was going on.


----------



## blackdogon57 (Dec 30, 2009)

Booshcat said:


> Sounds to me like Treeco has his. He has his 21 acres, his epa stove, and his elitist attitude. I bet the one thing Treeco doesn't have is a lack of money.
> Thats usually when these types start telling us what "we" need to do to solve the worlds problems. My guess the reason that he won't discuss vehicles is that what he drives is probably worth more than many of us could dream of ever affording.




Regardless of whether or not you agree with Treeco on this or other issues, I fail to see how his personal financial situation has much to do with the disscussion. For all you know he owns 21 acres of swamp, lives in a tar paper shack (with an EPA stove of course), and drives a POS vehicle.

You might be surprised at the number of folks that hang out on this site who are well set financially. I would be willing to bet that many drive expensive cars and trucks, own nice properties and have lots of expensive toys. Also willing to bet that they work their asses off and are proud to provide their families with nice things.


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 30, 2009)

TreeCo is an elitist. He is arrogant and looks down his nose at all of us. We've all seen his type.

Think about it. We have him on this forum rooting for the EPA to impose very strict regulations on many members on this board.

This forum is about cutting and heating with wood, yet we have a member that believes other members should have their wood stove banned. Be it insdie or outside, he wants them banned.

I'm sure many on here are in my shoes. We paid alot of money for our set up, to heat our homes and beat the rising cost of other fuels. Yet TreeCo wants us to lose that right and seems to relish in the idea that we could lose what we have invested.

If that happens, I'm sure this board will lose many members. What would we have to talk about? Is a guy like TreeCo, the kind of guy the sponsors would be proud of? I don't think so!

I think a guy like TreeCo shoiuld be banned for his views. His view goes against what this forum is all about. 

No different if Al Gore became a registered member and preached his views. Would he be banned? Would he be allowed to thumb his nose at us and literally laugh in our face as we lose our right to burn wood?

TreeCo has no problem with many of our stoves being banned. He encourages it.

I say, show him what banning is all about!

If someone went on a gun forum and started preaching about banning assualt rifles, they wouldn't last long. 

While TreeCo may have good information to share and post good info on other topics, the fact that he actually wants many stoves banned entirely, shows what he is all about.


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 30, 2009)

With SUPPOSED friends and allies like TREECO, we certainly do not need any enemies...


----------



## odps (Dec 30, 2009)

*TreeCo*

To get an idea of what kind of vehicles and equipment Dan likes, _aka_ *TreeCo* check his other posts...

_http://www.arboristsite.com/search.php?searchid=3268841_

*I especially like this one:* _http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=113686_

*Nothing better than a pre CAT 1973 CHEVY ONE TON* _http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=119055_

*His stove: A non CAT Jøtul F 600 Firelight CB* _http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1917168#post1917168_
_according to Jøtul's web-site:_ "largest non-catalytic cast iron woodstove in the world"
I don't know much about Jøtuls. Are they EPA certified?

*This is good*... _http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1898852#post1898852_


TreeCo said:


> Speaking for myself....all wood I sell comes from trees I charge people to remove. I'm very small time.
> I've considered limiting my firewood sales just to people that use epa woodstoves but haven't made that move.


----------



## trouba (Dec 30, 2009)

Nice research!!


----------



## odps (Dec 30, 2009)

*improvement ???*



TreeCo said:


> "I managed to get through the Winter of 2000-2001 with my wood boiler, but was not at all happy with the smoke and the 22% net delivered efficiency."
> 
> 
> Outdoor Boiler User Report Update
> ...




okay I guess, .... If you call a 6 hour burn time, an improvement..


----------



## treemandan (Dec 30, 2009)

It would be good if the pollutants from wood burning could be reduced, it would be nice if I had a bigger penis ( hell, it would be great if I had two). Sure things are quite expensive and its sucks when freedom is lost.
But hell, when I knew Treeco he was burning huge piles of wood just to get rid of it and I think he was heating his house by burning old paint. Is that right bubba, paint? I am still not sure what I saw but it looked dangerous. Whatever, though it is true some people go around saying stuff born out of conveinience. Ya know what I mean?


----------



## odps (Dec 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Out Door Wood Boilers Are Big Polluters.





TreeCo said:


> Outdoor Wood Boiler/Furnace (OWB) Polluting



Customers of yours TreeCo?


----------



## treemandan (Dec 30, 2009)

But was that paint?


----------



## odps (Dec 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Nope. I only sell to people who use EPA approved woodstoves.



As of 12-18-2009, 01:06 PM you were sellin to non EPA folks... or at least thats what you said.... 



TreeCo said:


> I've considered limiting my firewood sales just to people that use epa woodstoves *but haven't made that move*.


----------



## treemandan (Dec 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Hell Ben when you worked for me you were huffing paint!
> 
> 
> Remember the time you were huffing the exhaust on Jeff's pickup truck and he almost backed over you? LOL!



he did? I don't remember, must have been huffing to much paint.

Anyway, forget it.

Is there a way to fit an older stove to make it burn cleaner? I got this one that came with the house. I don't really care to much for, its kinda small. don't hold very much and I have to burn it cool so as not to over heat the downstairs. You should see the smoke coming out sometimes.
What are the compnents of a clean burning stove?


BTW , I told you, I saw him coming, he didn't hit me. Came dam close but I have good peripherals and I am quick. I would never turn my back towards any guys like that.


----------



## odps (Dec 30, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> I changed my sales policy on Christmas day.



Well shux... you should have said so... everythings all good then... 

So tell me about that Jøtul... is it EPA certified????


----------



## treemandan (Dec 30, 2009)

We used to have these big Cunninghams. 8 cubic feet inside. Since we had two of them my brother and I would each heat up a poker red hot and chase each around the house with them. I miss those days.


----------



## treemandan (Dec 30, 2009)

I am just waiting til the stove I have now is toast ( if it ever gets to be toast) and then will get something better. I can't decide what would be good for me. Maybe an OWB but I don't know.

Is 75,000 btu a high rating for a wood stove?


----------



## odps (Dec 31, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> Google it!/



Oh, I've already googled it... didn't see where it was EPA certified... but I could have easily over looked it? Did I over look it? can you post a link that shows its EPA certified ?

I don't know much about Jøtul Stoves... trying to learn something here...


----------



## odps (Dec 31, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> You are on your own good buddy. /



Awww man... I thought this was a good forum... a place where people come to exchange ideas and info...

I was hoping since you were a Jøtul owner and everything, that you would know if your stove was EPA certified... and you could enlighten the whole forum... for the betterment of everyone!!

Oh well then.. since you won't help a fellow forum-er out, I guess I will just have to rely on my own conclusions...

*Your Stove is not EPA certified... *​


----------



## trouba (Dec 31, 2009)

The Jotul stove treeco has if it a newer one would be 75 percent efficent putting off 4.4 grams of pollution I mean particulates so it looks like it would qualify as an EPA approved stove according to Jotuls site> But I can not find that model on the Epa site, An EPA certified wood stove or wood heating appliance has to be independently tested by an accredited laboratory to meet a particulate emissions limit of 7.5* grams per hour for noncatalytic wood stoves and 4.1* grams per hour for catalytic wood stoves. So it looks like he can still sell wood to himself according to Jotuals specs.


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 31, 2009)

Good ole TreeCo.

The guy dodges questions left and right.

Won't disclose what vehicle he drives.

Dodges questions about burning paint.

Doesn't want to discuss how much smoke and odor comes out of his two stroke chainsaw.

Won't answer if his Jotol is EPA certified.


Why all the question dodging, Big Man?

Constantly changes the topic when the questions get too hot.

Why don't you tell everyone how you use to be a moderator on this board but got kicked to the curb. 

Why was that?


----------



## Pain Cow (Dec 31, 2009)

Usually weasles were raised by weasles.


----------



## PAwoodchopper (Dec 31, 2009)

Pain Cow said:


> Usually weasles were raised by weasles.



I REALLY think he means *REDNECKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Storm56 (Dec 31, 2009)

Pain Cow said:


> Usually weasles were raised by weasles.



HYPOCRIT is the word that comes to mind...


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 31, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> This video was taken on 2.21.09 at approximately 8am. It displays the pollutant wood smoke that my neighbors put into the environment on a regular basis
> 
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yrY4shkn1fo&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yrY4shkn1fo&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>






This post is from a guy that sells firewood, drives a diesel, owns an uncertified stove, operates a chainsaw with oil/gas mix, burns up old rotted wood to clear his land and he's worried if someone else is polluting.


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 31, 2009)

TreeCo's videos give you a peek into the kind of guy TreeCo is.

He goes around video taping his neighbor's and other people's houses to show the smoke.


From the dates on the videos, he's been doing it for a while.

We all know the type of person he is. We see his type portrayed in movies and TV shows. The nosy neighbor looking out the window with binoculars to neb. He takes it a step farther. He takes videos to post on the internet and show the world.

He's a class act.


----------



## Mike PA (Dec 31, 2009)

*Videos*

It does seem a bit odd that you are recording people's stoves. Seems to be a bit of an obsession of yours...?

Anywho... I can understand why you don't like the person across the street using an OWB with a stack that is too low. I agree that is a poor location for the stove and your neighbor should not have done that. I think the township or borough should regulate that use, as it clearly does affect other people. I will not install one of those at my house because my neighbors are too close. Having said that, a blanket banning of these stoves and non-EPA stoves is simply wrong. I am not sure how old my stove is (25+?), but I challenge anyone to show that my stove impacts anyone elses health or property value. 

Getting back to the point of the OP - PA is using a blanket regulation to deal with OWBs, which is wrong. New installations should be completed according to new regulations. Old installations should be left alone, unless they specifically create a problem, and not just for someone driving around with a video camera. Prevailing winds, stack heights, and distances need to be considered before the DEP simply outlaws peoples use of these stoves.


----------



## Mike PA (Dec 31, 2009)

Sorry - my mistake.


----------



## ray benson (Dec 31, 2009)

Mike PA said:


> Anywho... I can understand why you don't like the person across the street using an OWB with a stack that is too low. I agree that is a poor location for the stove and your neighbor should not have done that. I think the township or borough should regulate that use, as it clearly does affect other people. I will not install one of those at my house because my neighbors are too close. Having said that, a blanket banning of these stoves and non-EPA stoves is simply wrong. I am not sure how old my stove is (25+?), but I challenge anyone to show that my stove impacts anyone elses health or property value.
> 
> Getting back to the point of the OP - PA is using a blanket regulation to deal with OWBs, which is wrong. New installations should be completed according to new regulations. Old installations should be left alone, unless they specifically create a problem, and not just for someone driving around with a video camera. Prevailing winds, stack heights, and distances need to be considered before the DEP simply outlaws peoples use of these stoves.



Some other states do allow the counties or villages to set the OWB regulations. Something similar should satisfy PA. legislators. It would be nice if a company could make upgrade kits to increase efficiency and minimize particulates on older units.
Those CB furnaces look pretty impressive
http://www.centralboiler.com/e-classic.html


----------



## Mike PA (Dec 31, 2009)

There are local ordinances in PA that cover OWB installation, but not every municipality has them. The DEP regs would cover the ones that were installed prior to local ordinances and, in many cases, goes beyond what the local code calls for. It will be onerous or impossible for many people to comply with the DEP regs, as stack heights could get outrageous (Need to be 2 feet higher than houses within 150 to 500feet, depending on stove type).


----------



## odps (Dec 31, 2009)

*The TreeCo Video collection...*



TreeCo said:


> Maybe you'll notice a pattern after a bit. Personal attack......new smoking owb video. Let's see who runs out first. Google is watching.



Every time you post, its another vid of one of your customers....



TreeCo said:


> I changed my sales policy on Christmas day.


 but all of these videos were made before Christmas... LOL..

seen one smokin owb, you've seen em all... no one is clikin em man... every time you post a vid... we just scroll by...

but hey, knock yourself out...


----------



## Windwalker7 (Dec 31, 2009)

TreeCo said:


> This video was taken on 2.21.09 at approximately 8am. It displays the pollutant wood smoke that my neighbors put into the environment on a regular basis
> 
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yrY4shkn1fo&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yrY4shkn1fo&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



I guess its someone else that video tapes "YOUR NEIGHBOR" and puts it on You Tube.

My Bad!


----------



## wampum (Dec 31, 2009)

Mike PA said:


> There are local ordinances in PA that cover OWB installation, but not every municipality has them. The DEP regs would cover the ones that were installed prior to local ordinances and, in many cases, goes beyond what the local code calls for. It will be onerous or impossible for many people to comply with the DEP regs, as stack heights could get outrageous (Need to be 2 feet higher than houses within 150 to 500feet, depending on stove type).



Mike those local ordinances remind me of the local ordinances some townships have for burning your trash.(or open fires,camp fires) I think ours is on Tuesday. If you are burning for recreation or clearing farm land,then you can burn any time. I hate regulation,unless someone is harming someone else. Those open fire rules were put in basically so that you did no harm to your neighbor. The neighbor and you know not to hang clothes out on Tuesday,because the neighbor may be burning trash,and you may get ash on it(just an example). Any other day should be OK. Camp fires or Farm fires(clearing fence rows exc) are usually pretty far away from other houses. If they start to just take a wide brush and make regulation that covers the whole state,will not open burning be next. Once you start something,you start a slippery slope,more regulation will be coming. The best part is DEP is non elected officials,that are making law. Kind of sounds unconstitutional to me. But any more they just tend to wipe their butts with the constitution.


----------



## flotek (Dec 31, 2009)

the problem is the law doesnt change much of anything as far as johnny neighbor is concerned . it doesnt matter if theres a strict new regulation for the use of epa certified stoves or not ,the fact is if someone is irresponsible and burns green wood garbage tires ect .. they will do it just as they always have regardless of what appliance they are required to use.ive seen it first hand many times trust me you can bellow tons of noxious smoke out of a new epa certified stove if you miss use it and are ignorant in proper use just like any stove .its like saying guns kill people ,its self defeating because your blaming an innanimate object for the problem when its the user


----------



## wampum (Dec 31, 2009)

Just makes you wonder,if we had a long power outage,where only wood stoves,could be used for heat. After a few days Kerosene would run out in most homes,after the 5 or 10 gallons put aside run out. I wonder if that nosey neighbor that complained about your stove would like to visit to get warm?


----------



## woodbooga (Dec 31, 2009)

This thread sure has some interesting tags down at the bottom of the page.


----------



## odps (Dec 31, 2009)

*Video*

One could set a video camera on a tripod in my back yard... and it would be easy to get footage of the ole girl puffing smoke during certain parts of the burn cycle, when I add wood. But you would also get hours and hours of footage when there is no smoke at all, as the stove is doing its job...

Then one could post hours and hours of this footage on the internet... over and over... but what would that prove? Nothing... if you've seen one owb run clean, you've seen em all.... 

The real question at hand, is; since most stoves in service today are non EPA certified, will they be outlawed??????

Also, there is no reason to single out any particular type of wood burner... All *non EPA* wood burners could suffer the same fate...

If your stove (insert, indoor unit, owb, fire place, whatever...) is *non EPA*certified... then your in the same boat with the rest of us... no matter how "clean" you think _your_ stove is...

I can't figure out why an owner of a *non EPA* free standing cast iron stove would want to loose their stove to new EPA regs ???

I mean if it happens... it happens... but it could effect* all *of us non EPA stove owners... not just the owb folks...


----------



## MNGuns (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm sure this thread could go on for some time, and as a responsible OWB owner I'd have a few comments I could add as well, but I do believe the best thing to do here is.......DON'T FEED THE TROLL...


Stay warm guys.......


----------



## Slick (Dec 31, 2009)

woodbooga said:


> This thread sure has some interesting tags down at the bottom of the page.



Good catch, holy crap that's funny


----------



## Slick (Dec 31, 2009)

On a serious on-topic note....after sending my email the other day to the email address posted a couple times on this tread and on my CB literature I got an automated reply but it had good info about how to get the results etc sent you in the future...worth the email right there...send them in PA people, gotta be in by monday.


----------



## odps (Dec 31, 2009)

MNGuns said:


> I'm sure this thread could go on for some time, and as a responsible OWB owner I'd have a few comments I could add as well, but I do believe the best thing to do here is.......DON'T FEED THE TROLL...
> 
> 
> Stay warm guys.......




Awwww maaaan..... but trolls can be so much fun!!!!


----------



## woodbooga (Dec 31, 2009)

Slick said:


> Good catch, holy crap that's funny



I like TreeCo and consider him a friend. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not. Tho' this thread ain't doing much to advance his candidacy for "Most Congenial AS Poster of the Year." 

For me, no OWB. Neighbors too close. I think it was miss manners who said that laws and regulations begin where common sense and respect for one's neighbors break down. If everyone was considerate, we could have the hands-off government so many want. 

I don't know the science of particulate matter emissions, etc., so I can't get into that. Stinky smoke I can wrap my brain around. For those of you burning good quality wood and have respectable clearances from others, more power to you.

In my case, my woodstove was manufactured 70 years before the epa was created. First year burning, I thought we were doing it wrong. No chimney smoke save for kindling - whilst all my neighbors had smoke coming out of theirs.

In addition to saving $$$ on heating and cooking, I'm doing my part to help us become less fossil fuel dependent. And since my stove's an antique, I'm keeping alive a part of our history - something I value, if you read my same ax twice thread yesterday.

Happy New Year!


----------



## rob206 (Jan 1, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I've little to no concern about people who believe they have the right to heat using high emission wood burning devices and using wood heat as a stepping off point to rant on the evils of the EPA.
> 
> Stop fouling the air and giving wood heat a bad name!




Well, there is evidence that OWB's do not pollute anymore than your valued epa certified stove. I concede that these reports in the links provided come from sources on behalf of the OWB industry and CB in particular. That does not mean however that their data/argument is wrong. They use numbers right from EPA doc's.

What gets me about the left is that it is always someone elses rights they want to stamp out, and always someone else who determines what is acceptable or not. Well okay, I too think emissions from wood burning appliances should be reduced. Reduced to ZERO. How's that sound? Are ya with me?


http://www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com/cms/repository/media/er-0406-GitlenLetterNESCAUM.pdf


http://www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com/cms/repository/media/Guldberg%20Testimony%2010-30-06%20Indiana%20EQSC.pdf


----------



## odps (Jan 1, 2010)

rob206 said:


> Well, there is evidence that OWB's do not pollute anymore than your valued epa certified stove.



TreeCo's stove is not EPA certified...


----------



## Storm56 (Jan 1, 2010)

Like I aid in an earlier post HYPOCRIT - I really dislike hypocritic attitudes.


----------



## ray benson (Jan 1, 2010)

rob206 said:


> Well, there is evidence that OWB's do not pollute anymore than your valued epa certified stove. I concede that these reports in the links provided come from sources on behalf of the OWB industry and CB in particular. That does not mean however that their data/argument is wrong. They use numbers right from EPA doc's.
> 
> What gets me about the left is that it is always someone elses rights they want to stamp out, and always someone else who determines what is acceptable or not. Well okay, I too think emissions from wood burning appliances should be reduced. Reduced to ZERO. How's that sound? Are ya with me?
> 
> ...


I posted a link to the CB website earlier in this thread. They have one of the best rated owb's. But do not lump all owbs with them as far as efficiency or emissions. How much do the CB's cost? The ZERO emissions idea sounds close to the rules in the state of Washington.


----------



## Booshcat (Jan 1, 2010)

*Live and Die by the EPA Regulations?*

Does anyone find it ironic that Treeco will only sell wood to owners of EPA certified stoves?

*Do all of Treeco's vehicles meet current EPA mileage and emission standards for new vehicles?*

Should the gas stations then, not sell him fuel for his cars and trucks?

How would he make a living then? 

How would he be able to sanctimoniously pontificate to the great unwashed masses then?

Does anyone else think that Treeco is acting a lot like everyones favorite ahole over on the chaisaw forum, Spacemule?


----------



## odps (Jan 1, 2010)

Booshcat said:


> Does anyone find it ironic that Treeco will only sell wood to owners of EPA certified stoves?



Does anyone actually believe TreeCo only sells to EPA certified stove owners?

He only made _that_ statement after being pressed... and just a couple of days ago...

I wonder if _any_ of Treeco's customers even own EPA certified stoves...

I wonder if he actually has *one* customer with an EPA certified stove...
_*He, himself* _doesn't even own an EPA certified stove...

Not sayin I doubt his word... _but just wondering_...


----------



## bore_pig (Jan 1, 2010)

Better watch your tongues guys. I quoted Mr. TreeCo in my sig. Was reprimanded for it. He's special. Used to be a Mod.


----------



## odps (Jan 2, 2010)

bore_pig said:


> Better watch your tongues guys. I quoted Mr. TreeCo in my sig. Was reprimanded for it. He's special. Used to be a Mod.



*"Used"* to be, being the key word there.... 


TreeCo first started in this thread talking about *inside stoves* then he diverted attention to OWB's.... _whats up with that???_


TreeCo said:


> Non EPA *inside* wood stoves should be next!



When you use someones own words to shed light... who could have a problem with that???


----------



## trouba (Jan 22, 2010)

Hey Treeco after some very careful calculations (and a few beers) I have concluded that my new EPA stove is only 12.2963455% more efficient and not the 1/3 or 33.3% you stated.  Just kidden hehe


----------

