# ground worker skills?



## treeman82 (Jan 25, 2003)

What do you guys think are good skills for a ground worker to have? I can think of a few off hand... 

1) be able to fuel up chain saws and send them up to a person who is aloft

2) be able to work rigging devices safely and without endangering the welfare of the climber, or private property

3) be able to tie some basic knots

4) this is the one I am curious about... being able to set the climber's line using throw bag / line and BS 

I am finding that number 4 is gaining more and more importance as time goes by... 


Any others?


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 25, 2003)

Show up early for work, Monday through Friday, clean shaved or trimmed, shirt tucked in and boots laced.

Have a clean driver's license.

Not allow chemicals to interfere with work.

Manage money so that check advances aren't needed.

Manage gear on the ground. Get pruning gear or rigging gear prepped and set without a long drawn out chalk talk at every job.

Think ahead two or three steps.

Like a Boy Scout: Be Prepared

Have enthusiasm for work at a minimum. Being excited about arboriculture would be even better.

Tom


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2003)

That showing up part is half the battle, i think the biggest probelm in the industry is that groundies are concidered unskilled labor. The we complain when they act that way.

A buddy of mine ran an ad in the local paper and he got 2 classes of responce; unskilled individules wanting more money then they were worth and skilled people laid off from other trades thinking that that skill justified high wages in this feild. He says he is willing to pay 15 for a groundie who can show up and be willing to work, as long as they are willing to go through a probation period at 9. He is still looking.


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## Jumper (Jan 25, 2003)

A few of the skills I have needed in the past as a groundie:

Be able to pickup all the rest of the crew (other groundie and climber) neither of which have a drivers license, one for being a deadbeat dad, the other for unpaid parking tickets, and by extension, do all the driving;

Be able to bill the customer for work completed in legible writing and total bill correctly with correct taxes applied;

Liaise with customer in a professional and dilplomatic manner ands also put up with flak from their weird neighbours , both granola munching liberals and plain old a**holes, while climber has escaped up the tree;

Act as crew chief as directed by business owner-someone has to be in charge, and my experience with some climbers is that they want nothing to do with anything administative; 

Conduct daily inspections of all equipment including vehicles, dump chips on own as required;

Learn how to apply deep root fertilization, inserts, and vertical mulching and head off to do same on own without supervision from Day One;

Be able to prune shrubs and do small removals from Day one.

Wear and purchase own required safety equipment without protest;

The list goes on-I got paid pick from Company Number One, and he was slowly going under, none of the equipment worked worth a d*mn, but at least I learned a lot, and got a lot of free firewood and use of equipment on own trees when requested eg chipper.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 25, 2003)

Nath, that is being a low paid sucker <g>.


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## Jumper (Jan 25, 2003)

*oops and respnse to treeman82*

**** vice pick.

Treeman82, I would not feel comfortable setting the climbers line using throw bag, that is why he gets paid the big $$$$ LOL and I think where I line is set for a given ascent is a pretty personal thing.


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## Treeman14 (Jan 25, 2003)

I agree about setting the lines. A climber should(must) set his own line. And DON'T coil up my climbing line. I know you're just trying to be helpful, but keep your mitts offa my line.


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## ORclimber (Jan 25, 2003)

I'll settle for english speaking(because that's all I speak), good hearing, able to follow direction, and a strong back.


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## treeman82 (Jan 25, 2003)

Brett and Mitch, I was wondering about setting lines, because when I have been setting my lines in the tree, all I ask the groundie to do is pull on the slick line to get my climbing line (or pull rope) into the tree. I kind of feel that, that is degrading to the groundie. What I would propose is that the climber CLEARLY point out to the groundie where he or she wants the line set. The groundie then, with proper training would shoot the throw back up there, when the climber is back down, put a couple clove hitches on the climbers line and haul it up. I know that being a ground person isn't the most glorifiying work, but I just though that would give them something to be proud of, or look forward to. I guess that is just me though. However I do understand about safety and positioning being an issue.


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## treeclimber165 (Jan 25, 2003)

I'd prefer setting my own lifeline, thank you very much. I'm working with one groundman on one of the crews I climb for at setting lowering lines and bagging my throwline. It takes me 20 minutes to set a line and get all my gear together before I can ascend into a tree. If the groundman bags my throwline I can get up there 3 minutes faster. 3 minutes times 20 trees a week and that's an hour saved. 

I love working with groundmen who can think three steps ahead and can decide for themselves what they need to do next. Every job is basically the same. We make a mess, clean it up, and pack the tools. Some guys can pick up on a routine and stay busy without wondering what they should do next. Others can ground for 6 months and still act like every day is their first day on a tree job.


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## murphy4trees (Jan 25, 2003)

Setting up a 3:1 Z rig can be important to assure a good pull for certain cuts, which could save a lot of time not to metion the climber's life, and for speedlines.

Sharpenning a saw, and not dulling it when bucking wood

Good teamwork... both unspoken and that which requires clear communication

Shooting the BS either for climbing or rigging lines... let 'em practice during breaks etc..

Mechanical ability to fix and maintain trucks, saws, and chipper is a big plus, though rare

Upbeat attitude and enthusiasm enhancing team moral

Good felling technique should be learned/taught and practiced on the easy ones. 

Someboby has to rake..... (I use the power broom)

God Bless,
Daniel


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## Jumper (Jan 26, 2003)

", all I ask the groundie to do is pull on the slick line to get my climbing line (or pull rope) into the tree. I kind of feel that, that is degrading to the groundie"


Not to this one. I usually got the lines in the tree while the climber was getting his gear together etc.

I can give you a list of degrading jobs I have done in my 43 years and this small task sure was not one of them!


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 26, 2003)

On my crew I expect everyone to jump onto any task that they are trained to perform. Having a groundie set lines or stash throwlines doesn't generate a stratification. On the other end, I don't tolerate prima-donna climbers who feel that they are above raking. We all do everything. It's all about getting the work done effeciently not about shoving off work on team mates with less seniority.

I've had groundies work for me that had a better handle on the job flow than climbers with years of experience. Guess who got raises?

Tom


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## Jumper (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TreeCo _
> *
> 
> That quality is:
> ...



I have to disagree with you on this one point -not everyone out there is suited to climb but that should not exclude them from being a number 1 ground guy. In my own case the desire may well be there, but reality is I have had enough of heights and adrenalin rush to last a lifetime, am 43 years old, am in pretty good shape, however have a weak left arm held together with a 4 1/2 inch plate and six bolts, along with a compressed lower back from the last fall, degenerative disk disorder and osteo artritis. Having said all that, I have been up in smaller trees doing pruning (crabs and the like), and also have been up larger trees to assist in cabling with no probs. I just do not think I have it in me physically to be a full time climber at this point, perhaps 15 years ago, definately yes, but not now.


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## Jumper (Jan 26, 2003)

*Yup TreeCo*

The first company I worked for went under because:

The owner did not want to climb any more, though was a super guy , great boss and teacher, though (IMHO) a lousy businessman;

The climber was part time, severe "issues" which included dope on the job, and no driver's permit to get him to a rural loc;

The other wanna be /most of the time on the ground -climber was the deadbeat dad, no driver permit, and smoked up routinely until I raised hell and said someone had to be the boss and in charge;

And me, a 43 year old somewhat busted up ex Airborne type who went along for the ride because frankly I learned a lot, loved being outside and working with trees, and do not live for the almighty $.65 (1$US to most of you). I still go by houses looking at the pruning job and wonder WHO or WHY, especially in winter.


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## treeguy347 (Jan 26, 2003)

One of my biggest groundie pet-peeves is when they try to fill up a saw, end up spilling half the bar oil all over it, then hand it to you without cleaning it off. The two most important things IMHO are having a positive attitude and showing up on time, every time. If they can't show up they need to at least call.


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## Jock (Jan 28, 2003)

Well if they spill fuel, SACK them, if they smoke dope,SACK them, they dont show SACK them , even if they decide to call, still SACK them, but dont let them stress you, they are parasites, pond life, the lowest of the low who spend or will spend the rest of their natural being SACKED, they are not worthy of dragging brash, brash is too good a comodity for them to lay there grubby little hands on, if you still feel you need one of these things to help you get them to lift the dog ???? thats lying around the site, but dont give them gloves, and hit them if they even contemplate touching anything other than...........by the way..we have them here too..


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## Tom Dunlap (Jan 28, 2003)

DTE,

Maybe you can't understand Scottish or maybe the sarcasm wasn't loud enough. Seems like Jock is making a joke to me. But maybe that's because my ancestors came over from Scotland 

Tom

PS Added 1/29-Rather than delete and bail out of this tailspinning thread, I figured I'd add a footnote.

Well, it seems that I didn't hear Jock right. It seemed, when I read his post the first time, that he was really piling it on deep in an attempt to be sarcastic. Now, it seems, that he actually thinks that way. With an attitude like that, it might not be too big a surprise why he has such good relationships with his groundies. I'm not surprised anymore how quickly a good thread can be ruined by boorish behavior.

Tom


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## Jock (Jan 28, 2003)

*Some answers please*

I just read a forum on Groundies, put in my views, and hey presto, as normal was jumped on from a great height? Ok my opinion may not count much, what with me coming in from a different country but listen guys, I am an Arborist ..FULL TIME.. not an office worker or postman that takes down neighbours trees on a weekend, what we call weekenders,price droppers, so if you have a forum then you should be prepared to listen, but read the context too, but one or two of you may want to try to understand some of us dont have the monthly guaranteed pay cheque, and actually work for a living, and certainly dont need the expense of some toerag groundie who feels he is owed a living,for doing as little as possible, I sacked two groundsmen last month who didnt clear up a job, but decided to go to a bar for the afternoon!!!!, well sorry we were there until 9pm so we could invoice, but i guess some people may think i was very unfair and should reinstate them, perhaps even hire a shrink for them. Some people need to get a life out there, ..Regards Jock..


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 28, 2003)

That did seem rather mean and harsh. Yes there are bad apples in every bunch (i have run into more than my share lately, let my know if you behind on yours...i'll send some your way!!LOL) but its like the expression says "good help is hard to find". When I find some one good I first tell them that they are doing a good job and second I pay them accordingly!!! I have found that a lot of people have been run down all their life (me included) by their peers in school and else where and that if you give them praise for good work they will almost kill themselves for you (not that that is the objective but you get the idea!) and their self respect will increase as well as on the job "flow". just my thoughts:angel:


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## Menchhofer (Jan 28, 2003)

I wonder if there would be enough interest for a groundie only category? Probably not though.


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## Ryan Willock (Jan 28, 2003)

DTE, your right about the "Living Wage", they have to eat and live just like the rest of us so I personally base my pay on preformance and attitude. Every thing is relative, by that i mean what a person can live on in place A maybe totaly differant than place B!!! I state that only because of a discussion in another thread about labor rates and what not.


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## treeguy347 (Jan 28, 2003)

I have to agree with DTE. Jock has a pretty bad view on his groundies. I'd sonner change bedpans than work for him. Without ground guys, how are you gonna run your business??? In response to his post right after mine: The thing about spilling oil all over the place does bother me, but it was meant more as a joke. A groundie (or any other employee) with the right attitude and showing up when they're supposed to can usually be trained to do just about anything ou need of them. I would have fired the guys who blew off work in favor of the bar also, but there are times when something legitamate comes up, and under those circumstances, it's very nice to at least know that they aren't gonna be there, rather than wait on them.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 29, 2003)

OK people enough of the flame BS, let's act like adults.

I happen to agree with everyone here on the discussion (those parts I did not cut out)

Most of us hire groundies as entry level employees and have them dragging brush til the show an ability to do more then grunt work. We go through a lot of them to winnow the chaff and find the ones worth paying good money to keep

Yes, "sac 'em' if they are chronic screw ups, especialy if they go off for a pint durring the work day. Pay them more if they show up on time and work hard. Give another raise if they show innitiative on the job.

Jock, I think your opinion would have been better recieved if you would have weighed the diatrib by saying you actualy keep some good employees and pay them well. You must, because you said "we" were there till 9 finnishing up, implying that the othere heplers were there with you pulling the slack of the worthless POS's that you sacced.

Once again, let's refrain from volitile echanges of off topic vitrol. Leave that stuff for PM's and email.

Thanks.


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## Jock (Jan 29, 2003)

Well said, JPS, Just to confirm thing's I have 4 groundworkers here 3 of them have worked for me for 4 years, and 1 for 2years good workers, earn top dollar plus job bonus, hourly rate here is £11.00 per hour for a good groundsman, thats roughly equivelant to $16.50 per hour, bonus works on large removals, if I can foresee the job finishing by the end of the day or lunchtime the following day, theres a £50.00 cash bonus on that job and that has been known to happen more than once a week, the most important factor of all is that my groundsmen give us hell if we start to weary up the trees, same as i give them hell if they weary on the ground, we work well together, but theres no pulling away from the fact that most groundies can if allowed become a drain on your business so thats why i sack them. Should clear the point I hope, so just chill DTE and read more carefully.......Jock


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## Jock (Jan 29, 2003)

Ok DTE, Lets just end it, I've never been employed as a groundie but occasionally, if I turn up on a job i'll muck in just like even you might do, it's hard work i agree, but so what pay them accordingly, also as a point of interest to you guys who have your own business, I employ East European labour, at the exact same rates as the guys here get, lots of paperwork to get them here but believe me they appreciate the opportunities, and they also go home when the visa expires, Romanian workers are good workers in my experience, and the harder you work the harder they work, the bonus is there beer money, and the wages are for there families, to give them what they should have had years ago, a good lifestyle, I believe you guys have Mexicans not Romanians, so tell me , maybe in a new thread so as to end this arguing, How are they paid? the same as American guys? in fact i'll start the thread to show goodwill ...Jock


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## TREETX (Jan 29, 2003)

I use Mexican groundies. General labor goes for $6-$8/hr. I pay $10-$12 but that is for guys that can get it. They are one step ahead of me, saws gased up w/out asking. Ready to lower a limb once it is tied on without asking, the ability to operate and sharpen a saw, and the unbelieveable ability to drag brush faster than I can drop it .

I like the Mexican guys because they are there to work, get a job done, and get paid. Most of the American (white) guys I have worked are more concerned with who gets to do what and how much I am taking off a job compared to what they are getting paid.

Pay is cash and as far as visas and green cards, it is a don't ask, don't tell policy. If you demand them, you will just end up with fakes and a load of questions and paperwork at the end of the year.

I don't use general labor dead heads at all - my time is too valuable to put up with ignorance.

Many of the climbers I worked with in Germany were from the Balkans or Turkey.

Like all workers, there are many out there that are just looking to cart off your gear when you are away.


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## Jock (Jan 29, 2003)

An answer in all seriousness DTE, I was climbing trees long before I left school and started work, and like everyone else took on to cut branches off trees for people, extremely dangerous i know but it was cut them burn them or hide them somewhere, it escalated from rough pruning to TOPPING but i didnt know any better, I was a kid mad on cash, thats basically the answer, I slaughtered my poor neighbours trees, took their money and didnt feeel guilty, hid brash in compost piles etc etc, but after school i became more aware and started in business , end of story...Jock


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## budroe69moni (Jan 29, 2003)

*my 2 cents.....*

being a owner/operator of Golden 1 Arborist
i do it all, from the ground up! you're only as 
good as your help....lead by example.....walk 
the talk ect. ect. ect. 
if you're not willing to do the work.........
why should your ground help??????
just my 2 cents,
budroe


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## John Paul Sanborn (Feb 2, 2003)

Aint that the truth, these guys who think it is their job to get as much on the ground as fast as possible with no reguard for the rest of the team are a PITA to work for.

I do like being able to rig a lot of big stuff out fast, but waiting for the ground to clear the debris is important.

There is nothing better then a guy on the ground who know to look at your line every few minutes to keep it from being fouled. Those little things can make trhe differance between a good and and day.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 5, 2003)

Working on the ground once in a while is a great way to sharpen your skills as a climber. Also, a good ground man makes all the difference in the world as to how much work gets done, irregardless of the climbers skills. A chain is only as good as it's weakest link.


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## Jumper (Feb 6, 2003)

JP I agree with you re getting the big stuff down, and the importance of having the area below clean. One guy I worked for did not want any of the larger pieces bucked up to be moved aside, because he was more worried about its value as firewood than his own safety in the tree and mine on the ground. It is very difficult to work in an area where you are tripping all over everything , can not move backwards with a line without falling etc. not to menton keeping the climbers lines tiddly. This was furher compounded by it being a very small back yard.


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## jblimbwalker (Mar 2, 2003)

we all know what distinguishes good from bad ground help. If you try to make things hard on them, they will return the favor. A lot of bucket guys will free cut, or rope out massive limbs, only wasting valuable time and energy of the men on the ground. Every man on the job is a valuable component and the boss don't get paid 'till the job is done anyway.


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