# Beech Tree?



## kcrossley (May 22, 2010)

Three years ago we moved into a new construction home with two 0-100' established beech trees. Both trees are at the edge of property, but beyond our lawn. This year the trees have noticeably thinned out. We did have a rather rough winter for the Virginia Tidewater area. 

A few years ago we established a rather large mulch bed around both trees thinking it would make them healthier. In doing so we covered up some of the trees roots on the surface. Could this be the problem? If so, can we reverse the condition by uncovering the roots?

Thanks,
Kelly


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## S Mc (May 22, 2010)

It can take many years for construction damage to manifest itself. Knowing construction crews, they could have driven over the root system time and time again, topsoil could have been removed, replaced, compacted, turned upside down...the desecration list just goes on.

A tree's root system can extend two to three times the size of the crown width. So stand back from your trees and picture that. How far into the managed yard and potential construction site do they go? You can then picture how much of the root system was impacted during construction and subsequent landscaping with lawn, etc.

Regarding your mulching efforts, how deep did you install the mulch? What product did you use? and how close to the buttress flair did you go?

Could you supply photos of the trees and area?

Sylvia


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## lxt (May 22, 2010)

The mulch base should be no more than 4inches thick & I usually stay away from the root flare/tree base.

if heavy equipment was on site there may be some compaction try a root aeration & see how that does???

good luck, beech trees are awesome when that big...just a pretty tree!



LXT.................


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## kcrossley (May 23, 2010)

S Mc said:


> Could you supply photos of the trees and area?



Sure, here you go:



















BTW, we had a pretty hard winter this year. Could that possibly be part of the cause? I also have an arborist coming out sometime this week to inspect them.

Thanks for your help.


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## kcrossley (May 23, 2010)

lxt said:


> if heavy equipment was on site there may be some compaction try a root aeration & see how that does???



What's that? Is it expensive?


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## S Mc (May 23, 2010)

Kelly, could you give us a photo of the base of the trees showing the mulched area as well?

I can see the buttress flair, which is good. And the mulch looks organic, also good.

Did you lay down any weed barrier prior to the mulch? If so, what kind? How far does the mulch extend and how deep?

Your lawn is beautiful. However, remember that if you put any weed and feed or herbicide products on it, this can adversely affect your trees. Do you have an irrigation system? If so, this may well have cut roots numerous times. The landscaping endeavors of laying the lawn, installing the irrigation system, all impact trees. When laying the lawn was any herbicide, pre or post emergent used?

These large trees easily have a root system that extended into the construction site area. There is no doubt in my mind that they were impacted by all this development. A lot changes under the ground during construction...none of it any good for trees.

Whereas prevention of damage would have been the best bet, as it is difficult to impossible to fix damage to trees after the fact, that is obviously a moot point. Aeration and restriction of use of herbicides are probably your only and best options for improvement to these trees' wellbeing. 

A harsh winter will impact a stressed tree harder than a healthy, vibrant tree. 

Sylvia


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## kcrossley (May 23, 2010)

Hey Sylvia,

Thanks again for your help. Here are the photos you requested, plus a few more.

*Both Trees*






*Left Tree*





















*Right Tree*
















Yes, we have an irrigation system, plus, we added about three dump trucks of dirt to the backyard, but were careful not to cover or damage or cover the roots. As far as the mulch, last year we used Scott's Nature Scapes, which we later found out was simply crushed pallets. Most of that washed down the hill. This year we used shredded hardwood mulch. NO weed barrier was used.

Actually, a month or so ago I used Ortho Weed-B-Gone to eliminate some weeds around the trees, but I sprayed it directly on each weed. 

I hope this helps.

Thanks again,
Kelly


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## S Mc (May 23, 2010)

Kelly, you did a beautiful job on the mulch. And weed maintenance, using a systemic with addressing each weed individually is definitely going to minimize chances of affecting your trees.

The only suggestion I have on the mulch itself would be to possibly take a blower and blow it a little bit further away from the trunk and expose more of the surface roots. That is being a bit picky, I know.

I really feel a large contributor to your tree's stress symptoms harkens back to the construction of the house and subsequent landscaping. Beeches, according to references, are fairly intolerant of construction, soil fill and general changes in their environment. 

It will be interesting to hear what the arborist on site has to say. I would be seriously thinking about an aeration effort, even knowing that is possibly only going to have a moderate affect, something is better than nothing. This process will be out in your lawn, as this is where the compaction will have been the worst. What I wouldn't be keen to hear is anything that involves injecting the tree or fertilization. If anything of this nature is suggested, ask numerous questions on the why, when, how, and why again. 

I am assuming the 3 dump truck loads of dirt was for your lawn area. And so, as I said, this will have impacted the root system. 

Many people feel that if they are outside the dripline, they are no longer affecting a tree's root system. However, on a large tree of this sort, with an immense canopy that is ascending rather than spreading, that grossly underestimates the protection zone needed in order to minimize negative impact.

Sylvia


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## lxt (May 23, 2010)

The aeration will help with the prior compaction by returning the pourous space back around the root system (to a degree) beech trees _ala, Fagus grandifolia_ like moist rich soil....so do a ph reading of the soil & see what its reading alkaline/acidic.

I would consult with a local Arborist, they will be able to explain in a greater detail what has been mentioned above!

good luck & those are nice looking trees....it may just be shock/stress that the trees may overcome....BUT, keep a close eye on em & talk to an Arborist.




LXT.............


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## kcrossley (May 26, 2010)

I've contacted Bartlett Tree Experts. They're sending an arborist out on June 8th. I'll update this thread as soon as they've evaluated the trees. Thanks to everyone who is helping me with this problem.


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## Ed Roland (May 26, 2010)

I agree with Sylvia. Looks like construction damage. 

Ive worked with several of the sales reps for the big "B" throughout VA. Knowledgeable bunch. If a Jason H. comes to see your tree, expect great service.

I look forward to reading what recommendations are prescribed.


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## ct greenman (Jun 3, 2010)

All the info given so far is spot on. To go a little further with the beautiful lawn the weed control on the lawn could have contributed to the sparse upper canopy. If you have a lawn service limiting the weed control they use will help. Beech trees have a very sensitive and close to the surface root system. This is also why construction 3 years ago may be part of the problem as well as compaction of the soil. A good organic fertilizer with microaize or compost tea treatments can help to revitalize health. Good luck Beech are one of my favorites. Bartlet has some good guys in my area whom I know.


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## kcrossley (Jun 9, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> All the info given so far is spot on. To go a little further with the beautiful lawn the weed control on the lawn could have contributed to the sparse upper canopy. If you have a lawn service limiting the weed control they use will help.



If weed control is part of the problem, will the trees recover once I have my lawn service discontinue the treatments?

I feel like a tree killer.


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## S Mc (Jun 9, 2010)

KC, has the Bartlett rep been out yet? 

The weed control products the lawn care service may well be contributing to a problem, but they are unlikely to be the sole cause. But seeing as these are big, magnificent specimens, I would error on the side of caution and withhold herbicides in their root zone.

I think the key component is the compaction due to the construction activity and will be interested what the onsite arborist recommends for remediation.

One of the goals in our industry is to get the word out there that trees need to be protected whenever change is being considered within their vicinity. There are few things we can fix with trees, so it is much better to prevent the problem to begin with. What makes this message so hard for people to understand, is that many years can go by before you see the ramifications of impact. By that time, the people involved are either long gone or do not tie in the event with the decline they are currently seeing. 

Sylvia


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 9, 2010)

to bad they were nice trees but construction damage not good and yes thear beech


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## kcrossley (Jun 9, 2010)

S Mc said:


> KC, has the Bartlett rep been out yet?
> 
> The weed control products the lawn care service may well be contributing to a problem, but they are unlikely to be the sole cause. But seeing as these are big, magnificent specimens, I would error on the side of caution and withhold herbicides in their root zone.
> 
> ...



Yes, the Bartlett rep was out yesterday. He felt there were probably a few things that contributed to this problem, including compacted soil and possible root damage from construction. He's preparing a proposal now, but here is what he recommended on site:

1. Discontinue use of any herbicides
2. Extend the mulch bed an additional 5-10' into the turf area
3. Aerate the lawn directly under the tree's canopy to help loosen up the soil

He also recommended cabling both trees where they split for additional support and a fertilization regiment, which he's putting together now.

Andrew, the person I met with, is quite knowledgeable and taught me a lot about how trees work, especially the beech genus. One thing that I didn't know is that beech trees have really wide and shallow root systems, which makes them much more prone to construction damage. I wish builders would take all of this into consideration when they're building a new home. 

I also learned that trees normally die from the top down when root damage occurs. Basically, the parts of the tree closer to the surface take most of the nutrients. One question I had that he didn't know the answer to was what happens if we trim the lower branches of the tree? Will that help direct more nutrients to the canopy? 

Hopefully, whatever he recommends will help.

Kelly


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## ct greenman (Jun 9, 2010)

NO trimming the lower branches will not help. Aeration and ORGANIC fertilization will help.


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## kcrossley (Jun 9, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> NO trimming the lower branches will not help. Aeration and ORGANIC fertilization will help.



Do you believe we can save them? What type of aeration? Should I use a standard yard aerator or is there something else?


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## ct greenman (Jun 9, 2010)

Most tree care co will use an injection system a large needle to inject fertilizer/water this will also break up compaction. I would do a fall spring and fall.After those apps The rehabilitation should be showing. Extending the mulch is a good idea but removing sod may damage more roots. I would not try that in the interest of less impact on the root system. For now the soil inject fert would be most beneficial in my opinion. Organic good ferts would be biopack/sea kelp or compost tea. A summer (ASAP) compost tea injection would be a good idea. All of these will loosen the soil and provide beneficial organisms and nutrients. Yes I think the beech trees will be ok if these things are done.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 10, 2010)

kcrossley said:


> 1. Discontinue use of any herbicides
> 2. Extend the mulch bed an additional 5-10' into the turf area
> 3. Aerate the lawn directly under the tree's canopy to help loosen up the soil
> 
> He also recommended cabling both trees where they split for additional support and a fertilization regiment, which he's putting together now.



1-3 and addressing the structural issues are all fine recommendations. 
I would not have recommended fertilization without foliar and/or soil testing. All the elements in the world are useless if the ph is off. A soil test will give you a base line potential hydrogen value to work with. 

Prescription prior to diagnosis = malpractice.

I may be getting ahead of myself since it's pretty likely the hold up on the fertilizer portion of his assessment is because the gang at the BTRL are processing your soil sample. 
They will get back to you and most likely recommend their product called _Boost_. Since we are dealing with damaged roots I will go ahead and guess they will throw a bag of a billion mycorr spores into the slurry to be injected into the soil under your trees.

These big bag-O-macro fertilizers regimens can push top growth at the expense of root development making plants vulnerable to stressful environments. Frequent, high levels of these fertilizer can produce an unbalanced and often unsustainable shoot-to-root ratio. The P disrupts the alliance between the fine root hairs and Mycorrhizae. Mycorrhizae on the other hand, feed plants and stimulate root growth. Generally, mycorrhizae are only helpful to plants on soils that are extremely low in Phosphorous. If Bartlett dumps a big bag-o-NPK-macros into the soil then the tree roots may disassociate with the beneficial fungi. They hedge that bet with their own bag of fungi. But now the soil has plenty of P.
Don't get me wrong, Boost is a tremendous tool when properly used. This may not be the time for it.

Your trees suffer root damage. Why force the tree to produce top growth? Why force a stressed tree to grow at all? Seems to me, slowing things down and ensuring optimum cultural practices going forward is best.
Instead of fertilizer to force growth, I would instead, _slow_ the trees shoot development and increase fine root density into the newly aerated soil with a growth regulator such as paclobutrazol. Mulch is all the *fertilizer* your trees will need.

Concerning seaweed extract: 
"Overall assessment: “…treatments are ultimately dependent on multiple plant, soil, and environmental factors, and often have no discernible effects.” 
“…there appears to be little value in applying these products.”
- Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist


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## kcrossley (Jun 10, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> I would not have recommended fertilization without foliar and/or soil testing. All the elements in the world are useless if the ph is off. A soil test will give you a base line potential hydrogen value to work with.



I may be getting ahead of myself in my last post. Bartlett did in fact take soil samples of the turf area and of the natural wooded area. The turf was extremely compacted. The natural area was fine. My rep said he is likely to prescribe a fertilization regiment, but only after they tested the soil. The bottom line is these guys seem to know what they're doing, so I trust they'll make some sound recommendations after they've finished their official analysis.


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 10, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> NO trimming the lower branches will not help. Aeration and ORGANIC fertilization will help.


:agree2r cabling / drilling holes for bolts /lags mic ds? Bartlett love s that


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## kcrossley (Jun 10, 2010)

tomtrees58 said:


> :agree2r cabling / drilling holes for bolts /lags mic ds? Bartlett love s that



Why is that?


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## kcrossley (Jun 14, 2010)

Last week I received a proposal from Bartlett. Their recommended treatment program runs from $2,500 to $3,600 for both trees depending on the options I select. They are recommending a combination of pruning, cabling, and soil management.

Regrettably, I cannot afford even $2,500 at this time. Out of all the options they presented me with, the one I felt provided the most benefit was Root Invigoration, especially because of the soil compaction which was clearly evident when my rep took the soil samples. Root Invigoration involves cultivating the soil to a depth of six inches to a distance of approximately 15 feet around the base of the tree. The fee for that service was $765 per tree.

Having said that, I wonder if I could accomplish the same thing with a rototiller or would that do more damage than good? I really want to save these trees, but I simply don't have the resources to do everything Bartlett is recommending. I would greatly appreciate any advice you may have.

Thanks,
Kelly


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## tomtrees58 (Jun 15, 2010)

dont rototiller you will kill the roots you will lose the trees in the next 2 years


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## kcrossley (Jun 15, 2010)

tomtrees58 said:


> dont rototiller you will kill the roots you will lose the trees in the next 2 years



Okay, no roto tilling. Thanks.


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## ct greenman (Jun 15, 2010)

How do they plan to "cultivate" the soil? Are they using an airspade?
Heck no rototiller = tree killer


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## Ed Roland (Jun 15, 2010)

here ya go

http://www.bartlett.com/root-rx-vid-lg.cfm?rs


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## kcrossley (Jun 15, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> How do they plan to "cultivate" the soil? Are they using an airspade?
> Heck no rototiller = tree killer



Yes, airspade.


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## kcrossley (Jun 15, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> here ya go
> 
> http://www.bartlett.com/root-rx-vid-lg.cfm?rs



Thanks Ed. That was very helpful. After viewing the video, I'm even more convinced that of all the procedures recommended, this is the one that would be the most beneficial. Would you agree?

Also, what is the purpose of pruning the tree? Does that help stimulate new branch growth?


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## Ed Roland (Jun 16, 2010)

kcrossley said:


> Thanks Ed. That was very helpful. After viewing the video, I'm even more convinced that of all the procedures recommended, this is the one that would be the most beneficial. Would you agree?
> 
> Also, what is the purpose of pruning the tree? Does that help stimulate new branch growth?



Bartlett's root invigoration? Good stuff from the Bartlett Lab. Dr. Smiley is one of the best. His root invigoration is a tremendous tool for specific instances. 

With that said, I still think a growth regulator (Cambistat) is best over the _fertilization_ mentioned in the video. It is more beneficial to increase root density over top growth in this case. Of course roots can not be stimulated to grow into compacted soil so aerating is vital. 

Google Mycorrhizae. Learn it's importance to the health of the plant and it's relationship with phosphorous in the soil.

Pruning can initiate growth responses. Not all of which are good. 
Pruning = wounding.
KC, every last leaf on your tree is performing a very important process and some of the results of that process are stored for future use in the biomass removed from pruning. Think of every leaf as a food factory feeding an already stressed organism. Err on the side of caution. Slow down. NO [big-bag-o-macro] FERTILIZER unless proven deficiencies. Loosen the soil, mulch and monitor.

or spend the $ for Bartlett to get it *MOSTLY* right.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> Of course roots can not be stimulated to grow into compacted soil so aerating is vital.*MOSTLY* right.



Bartlett is recommending cabling and pruning now, but advises that we hold off on aerating until this fall. Do you agree?


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## ChrisWNY (Jun 16, 2010)

Core aeration is preferred during the Fall because that is when cool season grasses grow the most. If you're only interested in aerating around your trees, it should be easy enough to rent an aerator and do the job yourself, as long as the ground isn't too dry or too wet, you can aerate at any time. If you're aerating an entire lawn, Fall is the best due to the growth of cool season grass and the weather conditions being optimal.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

ChrisWNY said:


> Core aeration is preferred during the Fall because that is when cool season grasses grow the most. If you're only interested in aerating around your trees, it should be easy enough to rent an aerator and do the job yourself, as long as the ground isn't too dry or too wet, you can aerate at any time. If you're aerating an entire lawn, Fall is the best due to the growth of cool season grass and the weather conditions being optimal.



So an aerator won't damage the roots?


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## Ed Roland (Jun 16, 2010)

The Bartlett sales rep seems to be operating on the premise that any new roots will then have lots of time to become established before next summer places a heavy demand on the root system. But what has he done to promote root growth other than loosening the soil? After root invigoration and* macro fertilization* the tree will respond with a lovely new flush of top growth and the "after" picture will make the tree look like its on the road to recovery. 
It very well may be. 
but...
It is this arborist's opinion that cambistat along with soil fracturing/aerating and mulch to promote root density _could be_ a better treatment for long term health over short term cosmetics. Likely cheaper as well. Ask your arb. rep. about this option.
http://treecarescience.com/uploads/marketing materials PDFs/SMPLInjured_Roots_SS.pdf

Remember. The good doctors at the BTR lab develop the science. It's up to their sales reps to accurately apply it in the field. The following is from the BTE patent for their root invigoration process. "1. A method of improving existing rooting soil around a plant comprising the steps of: selecting a portion of the existing rooting soil surrounding the plant as a first improvement zone; loosening the existing rooting soil in the first improvement zone with an air excavator which releases compressed air at supersonic speed, to a depth of around 6 to 8 inches below ground level"... "the treatment being selected from the group consisting of: organic matter, fertilizer, mycorrhizae fungi, a soil conditioner, *and combinations thereof*; and maintaining the treated existing rooting soil within the first improvement zone." 
- http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6845587.html

A tremendous tool for trees in compacted soil but Is this the best remediation for root damaged trees? Root damaged trees in compacted soil? Root damaged trees in compacted low fertility soil? Could very well be. I was not there so I can only help you make an informed decision.

Any pruning of live wood removes much needed foliage and creates wounds but maybe your arb rep has a very good reason for the pruning. 
Often pruning is used in conjunction with bracing to lighten loads. That decision has to be determined on site. 

I hope all this info helps, Good luck


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks Ed. All of this has been really helpful. I'll keep this thread updated so I can let everyone know how the trees are doing. Have a great week!


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## ct greenman (Jun 16, 2010)

ChrisWNY said:


> Core aeration is preferred during the Fall because that is when cool season grasses grow the most. If you're only interested in aerating around your trees, it should be easy enough to rent an aerator and do the job yourself, as long as the ground isn't too dry or too wet, you can aerate at any time. If you're aerating an entire lawn, Fall is the best due to the growth of cool season grass and the weather conditions being optimal.



No the core aeration you are talking about is for lawn. Its not good for trees especial beech. But fall is best for lawn aeration.


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## ct greenman (Jun 16, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> The Bartlett sales rep seems to be operating on the premise that any new roots will then have lots of time to become established before next summer places a heavy demand on the root system. But what has he done to promote root growth other than loosening the soil? After root invigoration and* macro fertilization* the tree will respond with a lovely new flush of top growth and the "after" picture will make the tree look like its on the road to recovery.
> It very well may be.
> but...
> It is this arborist's opinion that cambistat along with soil fracturing/aerating and mulch to promote root density _could be_ a better treatment for long term health over short term cosmetics. Likely cheaper as well. Ask your arb. rep. about this option.
> ...



:spam::spam::spam: for bartlet The cambistat is a good idea.


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## Urban Forester (Jun 16, 2010)

I would say that growth regulation is a good alternative, however a word of caution, once used, keep the trees on regulation. There is some concern now with resurgent growth if the use of cambistat is stopped. I have a 50ft. european tricolor beech in front of my house. In 2001 I cambistated it, I then let it go to see if resurgence was a problem... HOLY COW, by 2005 I had new terminal growth of 21". I had it pruned that year. Cambistat takes one molecule out of the gibberillic chain. When it "wears off" that chain reconnects with a VENGENCE. Its a good product, you just need to know that the tree needs to stay on a regular "schedule" of treatment. I think that rainbow scientific advancements has some info on their website regarding resurgence.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> No the core aeration you are talking about is for lawn. Its not good for trees especial beech. But fall is best for lawn aeration.



So are you saying the ONLY tree root core aeration I can do myself requires an air spade?


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## ct greenman (Jun 16, 2010)

kcrossley said:


> So are you saying the ONLY tree root core aeration I can do myself requires an air spade?



Another way to relieve compaction is with a needle injection. A large needle with pressurized water. Many tree co use this method to fertilize or inject compost tea. I made this suggestion on the first page.
You can always call another tree co Bartlet is not the only one. The care of trees is most likely in your area. An old bud of mine Will works for them Give them a call and see what they think.
Look for a third tree co also then look over all proposals and post main points then a good and affordable plan can be formulated.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

To give everyone a better idea on the area in question, both trees are at the edge of a natural wooded area. To the left, right, and behind the trees nothing has been disrupted, but we have applied anywhere from 4-6" of shredded hardwood mulch.

In front of the trees, there is a mulch bed that's approximately 5 feet from the tree. I now realize this mulch bed needs to be much larger. I'm planning on removing 10 additional feet of turf and extending the existing mulch bed from 5 to 15 feet so it covers the drip edge of the trees. Does that sound like a good start?

Is there anyway I can aerate the soil myself or will I need an airspade?


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## ct greenman (Jun 16, 2010)

kcrossley said:


> To give everyone a better idea on the area in question, both trees are at the edge of a natural wooded area. To the left, right, and behind the trees nothing has been disrupted, but we have applied anywhere from 4-6" of shredded hardwood mulch.
> 
> In front of the trees, there is a mulch bed that's approximately 5 feet from the tree. I now realize this mulch bed needs to be much larger. I'm planning on removing 10 additional feet of turf and extending the existing mulch bed from 5 to 15 feet so it covers the drip edge of the trees. Does that sound like a good start?
> 
> Is there anyway I can aerate the soil myself or will I need an airspade?



Removing more sod will damage more roots not a good idea. See if you can rent an air spade and compressor. Or call another co my co does not have an office in your area.
You may be able to get a needle used for fertilizing and use water from a garden hose I dont know if you will get the pressure necessary from the garden hose.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> You can always call another tree co Bartlet is not the only one. The care of trees is most likely in your area. An old bud of mine Will works for them Give them a call and see what they think.
> Look for a third tree co also then look over all proposals and post main points then a good and affordable plan can be formulated.



Thanks for the suggestion. I did contact another tree company. They felt the cabling idea was unnecessary, as was increasing the size of the mulch bed. They did recommended pruning and applying some type of magic mix, but I can't recall the name. He said two containers, which run about $30 each, would be enough for my two trees. I was told it was something you spray around the base of the tree to the drip line with a hose attached sprayer.


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## kcrossley (Jun 16, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> The care of trees is most likely in your area. An old bud of mine Will works for them Give them a call and see what they think.



Unfortunately, the closest office is in Alexandria, which is about 2 1/2 hours away.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 17, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> Removing more sod will damage more roots not a good idea. See if you can rent an air spade and compressor. Or call another co my co does not have an office in your area.
> You may be able to get a needle used for fertilizing and use water from a garden hose I dont know if you will get the pressure necessary from the garden hose.







ct greenman said:


> Another way to relieve compaction is with a needle injection. A large needle with pressurized water. Many tree co use this method to fertilize or inject compost tea. I made this suggestion on the first page.



Why go to the bother of leaching materials out of compost and squirting them into the ground when you could simply apply the compost intact as an organic mulch layer. Mulch is a VERY cheap way to decompact soil. It also handles fertilization.
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mulching.aspx

kcrossley, even if you decide to do nothing else, the absolute best and cheapest thing you can do for your trees is to increase that mulch ring. Avoid peddlers of extracted seaweed compost juicy juice and "magic mix". 
And please, do not try to rent a supersonic airspade and 185 cfm compressor to perform soil fracturing or try that _do it yourself_ water hose fert needle trick with material likely containing _E. coli and Salmonella_ pathogens.


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## kcrossley (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> kcrossley, even if you decide to do nothing else, the absolute best and cheapest thing you can do for your trees is to increase that mulch ring. Avoid peddlers of extracted seaweed compost juicy juice and "magic mix".
> And please, do not try to rent a supersonic airspade and 185 cfm compressor to perform soil fracturing or try that _do it yourself_ water hose fert needle trick with material likely containing _E. coli and Salmonella_ pathogens.



So do you think the plan I indicated in post 43 makes sense?

http://www.arboristsite.com/showpost.php?p=2286647&postcount=43


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## Ed Roland (Jun 17, 2010)

yes. i do.
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mulching.aspx

The tree roots and the grass roots share the same space within the soil. Physically Removing the grass will likely effect the tree. Consider having the grass expertly treated with an herbicide. Then mulch.


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## kcrossley (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> Consider having the grass expertly treated with an herbicide. Then mulch.



Is Round Up considered a herbicide? Won't using a herbicide hurt the tree roots or does it not go that deep?


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## Ed Roland (Jun 17, 2010)

Round up (glyphosate) is sprayed onto the grass blades and it then translocates into that plant. *Properly applied* it should only kill the grass. If you want to avoid chemicals then try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_mulching


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## kcrossley (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> Round up (glyphosate) is sprayed onto the grass blades and it then translocates into that plant. *Properly applied* it should only kill the grass. If you want to avoid chemicals then try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_mulching



With an area this large, Round Up is probably best. So, your advice is to use it sparingly, correct?


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## Ed Roland (Jun 17, 2010)

It's what i would use. Just apply to the grass only. Not to the point of runoff.
Roundup is effective on actively growing plants so allow some time for it to work. Then simply mulch over it.

I would also re-visit that cabling issue. Your pictures show tight attachments and targets. 
http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/hazards.aspx


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## kcrossley (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> I would also re-visit that cabling issue. Your pictures show tight attachments and targets.
> http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/hazards.aspx



The cabling wasn't that expensive, so I think I can afford that.


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## ct greenman (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> Why go to the bother of leaching materials out of compost and squirting them into the ground when you could simply apply the compost intact as an organic mulch layer. Mulch is a VERY cheap way to decompact soil. It also handles fertilization.
> http://www.treesaregood.com/treecare/mulching.aspx
> 
> kcrossley, even if you decide to do nothing else, the absolute best and cheapest thing you can do for your trees is to increase that mulch ring. Avoid peddlers of extracted seaweed compost juicy juice and "magic mix".
> And please, do not try to rent a supersonic airspade and 185 cfm compressor to perform soil fracturing or try that _do it yourself_ water hose fert needle trick with material likely containing _E. coli and Salmonella_ pathogens.



I am not "peddling" :censored: The big problem is compaction and I am trying to give the man an affordable solution. To even snuggest using round up with the shallow and sensitive root system of a beech is ludicrous. The compost tea or other biostimulants are working very well for us in my state.
A good way to rid yourself of grass is a tarp over the grass for a week. I will stop peddling my insanity now.


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## Urban Forester (Jun 17, 2010)

Round-up is not mobile in the soil, it binds to soil particles quickly. If mixed and used correctly it will control the grass w/o entering the root system of the Beech. I've used roundup within the root zone of my beech for 10 years. Follow label instructions and you should have no problems.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 17, 2010)

ct greenman said:


> To even snuggest using round up with the shallow and sensitive root system of a beech is ludicrous.



Ct, i'm not snuggesting nothing to you. I'm having a conversation with friends.

You included. So here, my friend, is the moa for glyphosate.
http://www.ncwss.org/proceed/2006/abstracts/94.pdf


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## kcrossley (Jun 18, 2010)

I spoke with Bartlett about removing the turf yesterday. They believe there is at least 4-5 inches of fill dirt on top of the Beech tree's roots, so they didn't see a problem with using a turf cutter. They also felt that increasing the size of the mulch bed was a good first step towards reducing the compaction of the soil and prepping the area for the root invigoration process this fall.


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## S Mc (Jun 18, 2010)

Holy Cow, have I missed out on a lot.

I was concerned about the glyphosate around the beech trees as well, but UFs personal experience reassures me. 

kc, you can dig a sample hole to see how deep the fill is (unless that was already performed and reported on in a post I missed...I thought I went back and reread everything, but it sounds like I missed something).

Fertilizing a stressed tree is NOT recommended. Pushing new growth gives us a visual that is instantly gratifying and, IMHO, is one of the reasons fertilization is so often recommended....it will produce reliable results that "prove" we have done something. However, if a tree is not reproducing adequate carbohydrates and instead is existing partially or mostly on stored reserves, you are in fact, using up those stored reserves faster as it pushes new growth.

So as has been pointed out by several, you need to know the reasons and reactions of what the treatment is trying to produce and what is actually going on.

I'm with the aerate gang, but I'm not quite in with all the recommendations on how. (Again I may have missed something). A core aerator designed for aerating your lawn is going to be insufficient. The grass roots will be much more opportunistic and take advantage of the space faster than your tree roots will.

I'm with Ed on having concerns about your renting an air spade and doing it yourself. 

Ct, are you suggesting a needle injector so the air spade would basically "terra vent" as opposed to creating larger holes or trenches as in vertical mulching? If so, I'm on that band wagon. The aeration needs to occur out in the turf where the compacted roots are. 

Did anyone test the compaction level turf vs mulch? (If so, please direct me to the post and I will reread.)

Sylvia


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## Ed Roland (Jun 18, 2010)

Sylvia, Ct suggests the homeowner rig a garden hose up to one of these soil injectors.







And remember our recent case of the oak with turf surround? Removal of the turf was way more intrusive than topical kill. 

Fill or no, tree roots manage to find that ideal area in the soil that favors growth. Why would the tree roots stay below the grass roots? I would not have the grass cut out. Running machines over the beech roots caused this problem. Running another over the roots to cut grass away seems counterproductive.


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## ct greenman (Jun 18, 2010)

Ed Roland said:


> Sylvia, Ct suggests the homeowner rig a garden hose up to one of these soil injectors.


 He wanted to do it on his own. I should have said leave it to a pro. Teas and other microbiology type ferts are to improve soil biology for the roots not push top growth.


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## Ed Roland (Jun 18, 2010)

We agree that the soil is what needs treatment here. We just disagree on how to go about it.


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## S Mc (Jun 18, 2010)

So kc is thinking of enlarging the mulch area into the turf area. And we are discussing the best, least invasive way to do this. With the reassurance from personal experience (Urban Forester) on use of glyphosate in the vicinity of beech roots (remembering you need to look at every species individually, oaks are very different from beech), I am not opposed to that method and it may very well be the least invasive. Especially compared to a machine (is this where the sod cutter came in?).

If the main problem is compaction, then getting side tracked on adding amendments clouds the issue. Many times the microbial life does not need to be "fed", it needs to be left alone to flourish and do its job. It does need oxygen.

How far is it from the base of the trees to the house? How wide is the combined crown(s) of these trees? What percentage of roots were compacted? And how much is another 5 ft (times running length of area) going to amend? You are going to want to aerate basically the entire turf area as well. 

Aeration is a temporary fix. It is never as good as preventing the compaction in the first place. However, it may help and is worth the effort for at least an attempt at saving these wonderful trees. 

Sylvia


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