# Urban-Municipal Forestry Question



## CivilServant (May 14, 2006)

Hi,

I have a question that I tried to find the answer for first by searching, but no luck.

Here's the conditions, question follows.

Medium sized old Midwest city, most trees 20 + years old, 30% maples, 15% ash (dead/dying), 51,000 street trees, 100,000 park/woodland trees (about 20% are managed near trails and play areas). 600 miles of roadway.

Staffing: Unionized
One realworld experienced CA/Forester (came from private industry, not a lifelong city employee)
One (me) scheduler/data entry person/dirt work coordinator
12 field workers (4 bucket/climbers, 1 investigations, 7 ground/traffic control).

Equip: All top notch 7 yrs old max
3 bucket trucks
3 chip trucks w/ whole tree chippers
1 stumper
2 Prentice cranes
3 p/u trucks
various other stuff

Problems in the city:
Emerald Ash Borer, street improvement, sidewalk improvement, aged/wrong species planted in the wrong locations. Department is way behind on trims.

Question:
What staffing level is needed to get on and maintain a 5-7 yr trim cycle, removals for age/species diversity and replant 500-700 trees per yr.

Remember I've got to control traffic with the same staff also, deal with injuries and vacation/sick time. Because these are all employees 35+ yrs old we currently experience 20% absent/injury rate and they have plenty of leave time available.

I'm really looking for a supportable position to present to the politicians when we ask for high paid climbers, not laborers/trainees.

Thanks, any input is appreciated, and if I forget to mention something important needed to reach a conclusion, ask for more info.


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## clearance (May 14, 2006)

Hi Civil, welcome. First point, it is a unionized enviroment so new hires are most likely held to the union agreement for wages. Second, it shouldn't be a problem getting new climbers to come to a city/union job, it isn't exactly balls to the wall treework. To get more of a crew I would pull the old lawsuit line, "we have numerous tree that pose a significant threat of failure and have to mantain other trees so they remain safe, blah, blah..." Propose an aggressive hazard tree program, emphasise the need to keep the liability costs down, thats my advice, good luck.


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## doggonetrees (May 14, 2006)

Looks to me like you have a pretty good work load, maybe want to beef up on the ground labor if all trucks are to be worked at the same time- for traffic control. Didn't see any listing for spray services, which could come in handy for the control of unwanteds around the neighborhoods.


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## treeseer (May 15, 2006)

The SMA listserv http://www.urban-forestry.com/mc/page.do?sitePageId=1946 is down right now. I would post this question there.

While clearance's liability focus can move people, I prefer pointing out the value of the forest and the need to grow that value. Here's the good news from MI; http://www.americanforests.org/news/display.php?id=154

First step in any good tree program is an inventory.


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## OTG BOSTON (May 15, 2006)

I'm jealous of your staffing and your equipment, we make do with much less in Boston. 

One thing to watch out for is privatization of your entire Tree shop. Many municpalities are finding out that it is much cheaper to hire out all of the tree services you currently provide in-house. This would be especially true if you have a large number of comp. claims and work related injuries.

This may work out better for your particular situation as it seems you were backed into this tree care position.


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## diltree (May 15, 2006)

Is this a proposal to create a forestry dept. fo the city???


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## CivilServant (May 15, 2006)

Thanks for the responses. We found some info, but more is always helpful. Someone has compiled the same types of info we have and determined that 4500 (all in house) - 8000 (contractor assisted) trees per full time employee is managable. Once we get past the EAB and replanting issues it may prove to be for us also.

Boston - Hate to see it get contracted anymore than the assistance that is being used to clean-up the EAB issues. The workers and the residents have a good relationship currently. I also like the work, having run harvestors and hydro axes, trying to work around a tree is different than mowing it down.
So, I don't really feel that backed into the position. Maybe they put me here to bring the insight of a dirt worker into the tree hugger realm. Just like Clearance sees tree management from a different perspective than many. When I look at the proposed hardsurface or underground work I see where a tree is going to get in the way , whether its today as a sapling or in 20+ yrs. Besides I'll never get tired of explaining why we want to put a fire hydrant here within 1000 ft of your house or why when they come to replace your lead water service it will kill your tree that was planted 1 ft off the water service. I have a nice picture also of the curb box that is now part of a tree (it must have made it easier to locate in the days before metal detectors). Why did anyone ever plant trees that get to be 30+ DBH in 36" extensions.

Treeseer - Inventory is from the 80's and better than nothing, but lacks in many regards.

Doggonetrees - A full range of tree services used to be offered, but have been curtailed while the staff tried to deal with the EAB issue. Plans are to start them up again in about three years. The ash will be gone in about another yr, even the ones that residents were treating have begun to die off.

Clearance - Your right about muni work not being full tilt all the time. I also know about driving all over the region to different jobs. Adventure was lived in my twenties and now I'm back for the retirement not the riches. I know alot of others would like to join the club. As for liability I've seen that offering the homeowner the declining tree as their own to love nuture and worry about being sued for changes the "your not cutting down that tree" mentality.


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## diltree (May 15, 2006)

Just a question: Would it not be cheaper to inventory the work that needs to be done, create a master contract and put it out to bid, hiring an arborist to over see the work being done by the contractor.

the way I see it after paying out.

Equipment costs
Repair Costs
fuel costs
Insurance
Management Wages
Union wages
Health ins.
Sick time and vacation time
Over time

For an operation of that size; your operation costs would easily be a million a year. When you could contract the entire Job out for a fraction of the cost.

Our company does municipal contracts, and we do five times the work any forestry dept. would complete. I'm just wondering the advantages of placing it out to bid vs. the city doing the work. The City of Worcester MA, has a forestry dept. and their costs must be over a million, and If they put it out to bid a company like ours or Northern Tree would probley come in and blow it out for $500,000k

www.dillontree.com


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## treeseer (May 15, 2006)

re Privatization, there seems to be a push in that direction in NC. This http://www.ncufc.org/Blitz06final.pdf
Series of workshops features a city arborist speaking in the Commercial slot, covering that topic.
I'm not recommending these workshops; too much $ for too little relevant info.


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## OTG BOSTON (May 16, 2006)

Boston - Hate to see it get contracted anymore

Avoid it if you can. I came in here at a time when the transition was being made. I was seen as the guy making the changes when in reality the decision was made much higher up the totem pole. I'm union all the way but still had to put up with a couple of years worth of flat tires............for doing my job.

I inherited an awful mess (as far as the state of my trees) and after four years we are turning it around, hopefully we will be back to all in-house employees sooner than later. I haven't been in the game long enough to know but it seems as though these things run in cycles.

Anyway , good luck!


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## sawn_penn (May 16, 2006)

diltree said:


> Equipment costs
> Repair Costs
> fuel costs
> Insurance
> ...



So which of these expenses wouldn't a contractor be up for? Or are you suggesting some cheapo outfit with no insurance and undocumented workers?


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## OTG BOSTON (May 16, 2006)

Pay attention, he is a contractor who bids on this type of work. And he is correct, if you let the contractor deal with the sick time, no shows, vacation time, broken stuff, etc. the Municipality gets more actual work for their dollar.

The incentive for the contractor is that they bid on a set block of work, they get paid the same amount of money whether it takes them two years or two weeks.


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## diltree (May 16, 2006)

In the state of Massachusetts, There is no way for low ball companies to even bid on municipal contracts. With Prerequisites set by the municipality such as , equipment requirements, $1 million ins policy across the board, Prevailing wage records, Performance bonds for the value of the contract, and references usually including past municipal contracts completed, and there is NO sub-contracting so small companies are usually locked out from the start. OTG BOSTON understood my point perfectly. OTG my question to you is: As the tree Warden for the city of Boston, what do you see as the advantages of keeping the work in house. From my understanding most of the City of Bostons work has been contracted out to Northern Tree. We compete against Northern on many municipal bids in the Greater Worcester Area and I must say they are an excellent company and from what I have observed they do very good work.


www.dillontree.com


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## OTG BOSTON (May 17, 2006)

Are you an MCA? You know we live by a code and I couldn't possibly share my secrets with a non-MCA! (kidding of course!)

Yes, Northern has taken our big pruning and removal contract that was put out for a three year deal, we are halfway through.(they got the big contracts, there are several smaller companies who do other work for us) 

Let me preface this by saying that I enjoy working with Northern and now we have refined the relationship so that everything runs smooth. To get to this point took a lot of hard work and alot of Northern crews. At one point I was sh!tcanning a crew a week for one reason or another. The point of telling you this is that huge companies like this are constantly hiring and firing so I must be vigilant in keeping an eye on who is doing my work. Is it a Certified Arborist with 5 years of climbing experience, or is it a land clearing guy who got sent to Boston because the Bucket operator didn't show up?

Now to answer your question. Most of the guys who work for Northern are from the western part of the state. They may have come into town for a Sox game or whatever, but they don't have a clue when it comes to getting around. There are also certain cultural differences. In house guys live in the city and are from the 'hoods, not only do they know how to get around, they know the people, the cops, etc. Sense of ownership is another biggie. Emergency work is huge. We are on call 24-7 and there are two of us who answer the calls, if there were more of us we could possibly have a life. And the biggest thing is the Union titles, If I were staffed the way it should be I wouldn't need Northern but I also wouldn't have the 500K either.

Like I said on an earlier post I am new to this. Northern has helped reduce our backlog of calls and really improved our rate of service. I don't know for sure if it will happen but, hopefully we will be going back the other way soon.


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## diltree (May 17, 2006)

*Otg*

I definitely see the advantages of a forestry Dept., especially where Its Boston and we both know how confusing it can be getting around the city. Maybe you guys should keep the pruning in house and put the removals out to bid flat bid. If you do that maybe Dillon Tree can bid it and blow it out, a flat bid removal contract may be worth us heading to Boston, we can show you guys how its done!!! 
OTG I am not a MCA nor do I employ any MCAs...but recently during a lengthy Conversation; Dan Mayer, MCA, from Mayer Tree Service recommended I join the Mass Arborist Ass. and Take their MCA exam, I told him I took it once a few years back and thought it was to tough at this point for me to pass. He said that they revamped the test providing new study material and a CD-Rom. So you will be happy to know myself and two other arborists from my company will be going for the MCA , and our company will be joining the organization. 


www.dillontree.com


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## OTG BOSTON (May 18, 2006)

_maybe Dillon Tree can bid it and blow it out, a flat bid removal contract may be worth us heading to Boston, _

I'll let you know next year when they are open again.

_we can show you guys how its done!!! _

Don't get too far ahead of yourself, I run this entire operation from a Bucket Truck. (bucket baby maybe, but no slackers here) also you would be amazed if I told you how it was being done right now.

I was on the committee that re-worked the MCA exam, the CD is awesome if I do say so myself. It could even be a great reference for people who don't plan on taking the exam. Dan is a great guy for sure, check out his shop if you get a chance (it's like treeguy heaven)
_
myself and two other arborists from my company will be going for the MCA , and our company will be joining the organization_.

sweeeeet! I'll be looking for you at the exam in the fall.

do you know any Stockbridge guys???


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## diltree (May 18, 2006)

*Otg*

My Brother in law is a Stockbrige grad......he is just finishing his B.A. in Urban Forestry, he has worked for us since his teen age years, and with the education along with the practical field experience he has become a fine arborist. We have plans for him to eventually head up our PHC program, and he will be going for the MCA with me in the fall. I'm sure you guys run a fine crew, and I would Love to work in Boston...we took down a 100' 48"diameter rock maple for the town of sterling today, and without a bucket this tree would have been a pain....you guys have any left in the city this big...



www.dillontree.com


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## OTG BOSTON (May 22, 2006)

All roads lead to Stockbridge.......in Mass anyway!!

I'll give you a heads up when our contract comes up for bid.

We have some of the biggest oldest trees around!!!!!!!


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## diltree (May 26, 2006)

Thanks, OTG, I would greatly appreciate a heads up......We have never worked for the city of Boston, but in the past we have completed many contracts in the city and surrounding towns for Boston Edison. Is there a contractor list for bid invitation in Boston?? or do you simply need to keep an eye on the Boston Herald.



www.dillontree.com


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## OTG BOSTON (May 30, 2006)

keep you eye on the rags and I'll let you know when. It should be about this time next year.


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## Optiboli (Jun 18, 2006)

*Not enough*

Hi ya civilservant .Just to give you a little info on our dept for you to compare with .We are about the same in the tree numbers as you ,we have about 70% american elm,the rest ash , maple and oak.We have a large dutch elm removal program that we run from fall to spring.We have about 35 personel,6 of them climbers.One 80 ft bucket truck ,two 60 ftrs.Two combo bucket/chipper trucks.Five chipper trucks and one 40ft bucket truck.Our pruning cycle is allmost nonexistant .We hire contractors for some of the work but saftey concerns slowed that down.We need at least another 10 workers to catch up on all the damage from last winters storms alone! One positive spin on all this i ll never run out of work! :greenchainsaw:


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