# Mastermind Meets The Stihl MS441CRM



## Mastermind (Mar 6, 2012)

I went today and picked up a new saw for one of our members from "down under". Well that made two MS441CRMs that were in the shop.







Yep there's a saw in there. 






The one on the left will stay stock and the 3/4 wrap is going to be swapped for a half wrap.

The one on the right will be treated to a full woodsport and compression increase.






If you are wondering why there's a black muffler on the RH saw.....it's a replacement, and I couldn't get a SS muffler on short notice.....and maybe not at all.

There's a story behind the missing muffler but we are here to talk saws. :msp_thumbup:






This slightly used 441 has 145ish on compression. A tad low in my mind. We'll fix that.






This is very strange.......The air filter mount has no nuts holding it in place. The air filter was just loose under the cover. 






I would love to hear some input from anyone that has experience modding the 441. I see a saw that should take to modds very well since it has the strato butterflies instead of the split carb. We shall see.


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## gcdible1 (Mar 7, 2012)

does your dealer give you better pricing? I would hope if you do a lil talking you could certainly help them sell a bunch of saws. Although they may not tlike your warranty voiding mods...


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## CR500 (Mar 7, 2012)

Suscribed, I can not wait to see the results... I am still debating on buying one lol


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## Dan_IN_MN (Mar 7, 2012)

So...you're saying that the cover pushes against the filter? Or...is something missing?


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> does your dealer give you better pricing? I would hope if you do a lil talking you could certainly help them sell a bunch of saws. Although *they may not tlike your warranty voiding mods*...



Actually, they like it when I show up. They know they will never have to see that saw again...... :cool2:


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

manyhobies said:


> So...you're saying that the cover pushes against the filter? Or...is something missing?



Those two studs hold the AF mount on with nuts.......the dang nuts are not there. I just hope like hell they never were.


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## DB43725 (Mar 7, 2012)

I guess every manufacture has a saw or to built on fridays,,,,,,,,,,


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## branchbuzzer (Mar 7, 2012)

Be picking one up tomorrow afternoon, pending UPS . Hopefully my nuts will be in the right spot...


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

branchbuzzer said:


> Be picking one up tomorrow afternoon, pending UPS . Hopefully my nuts will be in the right spot...



That's all a feller can wish for........his nuts being in the right place and all. 

We're gonna be cleaning up some tornado damage in the morning so it'll be sometime in the evening before I get a chance to update this thread. 

The destruction is just stunning in the area where we will be working. The only remaining tree has the frame of a double wide wrapped around it. My daughter, her husband and kids helped the folks try to find a few of their belongings...pictures and things today. They really need some folks around to help them right now. We're gonna do what we can.


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## parrisw (Mar 7, 2012)

Cool. 

You just don't ever stop do you Randy?


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## gcdible1 (Mar 7, 2012)

I sorta kinda think i want one of those 441crm's randy...Since im no real mechanic the auto carb adjustment would be great. As long as it doesnt cost a ton if it breaks. I bet the r version also comes with the hd oiler?

Good to see the community service, plus add that to the excuses to go :msp_wink:cut wood thread...


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 7, 2012)

Suscribed

Would like to see before and after vids please.


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## deye223 (Mar 7, 2012)

opcorn:Suscribed
+1 :agree2:


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## Slamm (Mar 7, 2012)

??? There should be a "Wing" topped screw holding that air filter to the air baffle. Not a traditional "wingnut" like the older regular 441's use to have, and two nuts holding the air baffle to the carb? 

I have never seen a regular steel muffler on a 441 CM before, ours have always been Stainless Steel Mufflers. Thats different. Keep an eye on if it is "tuned" different, electronically from the factory or not from the stainless one.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 7, 2012)

The original stainless muff has been are lost somewhere.


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 7, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> I sorta kinda think i want one of those 441crm's randy...Since im no real mechanic the auto carb adjustment would be great. As long as it doesnt cost a ton if it breaks. I bet the r version also comes with the hd oiler?
> 
> Good to see the community service, plus add that to the excuses to go :msp_wink:cut wood thread...



The R model (wrap ) comes with
Twin bumper spikes
Roller chain catcher
Large clutch cover
High out put oiler
Stiffer AV springs


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## Slamm (Mar 7, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> I sorta kinda think i want one of those 441crm's randy...Since im no real mechanic the auto carb adjustment would be great. As long as it doesnt cost a ton if it breaks.



You are quite right about the auto adjusting carb being great. It keeps that saw running a max tune at all times under all situations. Anyone that thinks they can do this with a screwdriver, has simply not run a saw with a tach on it while cutting for hours and hours. No human can with a little orange screwdriver can cut as much wood as you can with a Mtronic system on the same saw, it can't be done. I have both regular modded 441's and Mtronic 441's all with tachs on them and a lot of the difference in "in the cut" rpm's comes from that screwdriver and getting it just right.

Over the last couple of weeks I have spent hours running Mtronic and non Mtronic saws and the Mtronic system just hands down puts that screwdriver to shame. You need to adjust the carb morning, mid morning and evening to get the tune in the cut absolutely peak in the cut and then you can't do squat about the timing adjustements that the Mtronic system can. Not to mention the super easy starts.

I had worked out one time how much the computer control portion of the Mtronic is/was and I thought it was something like $75 or less, and/or that is for the whole carburator or something, either way, for the benefits and so far, complete lack of problems it has produced, its a no brainer for those that like to get work accomplished and not literally "screw" around with tuning a saw.

Sam


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## splitpost (Mar 7, 2012)

subbed inopcorn:


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## JakeLeg (Mar 7, 2012)

Been waiting for this one I'll be checking in on this thread. opcorn:


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## gcsupraman (Mar 7, 2012)

Slamm said:


> I have never seen a regular steel muffler on a 441 CM before, ours have always been Stainless Steel Mufflers. Thats different. Keep an eye on if it is "tuned" different, electronically from the factory or not from the stainless one.
> 
> Sam



The original stainless muffler was modded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll2fMfuiQWY

About 3-4 weeks ago another AS member sent me a pm to inquire about the mod and was looking for some tips on how i did it. After some back and forth and a phone conversation, I offered to send him mine for free and he agreed to send his to randys shop (where my saw was going). I got a PM that he loved my muffler and that was the last i ever heard from him - i guess he decided to keep both mufflers . So after three weeks of no muffler we had to get a replacement.....and the black one was in stock. 

Not sure about the air filter nuts though....i never took the cover off as i didnt even run a tank of fuel through the saw.

Anyway....moving on.....cant wait to see the results!

Greg


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## sgrizz (Mar 7, 2012)

opcorn:


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## HittinSteel (Mar 7, 2012)

Nice of you and your family to help out those victims.... I imagine it just comes naturally for you and you've instilled those values in your family.

oh, also interested in watching this saw progress


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

parrisw said:


> Cool.
> 
> You just don't ever stop do you Randy?



Nope..........not till I have too. 



Stihlman441 said:


> Suscribed
> 
> Would like to see before and after vids please.



Of course there will be before and after videos. I've been waiting for awhile to get started on this build. This saw has been on the shelf waiting on that muffler for three weeks.



Slamm said:


> ??? There should be a "Wing" topped screw holding that air filter to the air baffle. Not a traditional "wingnut" like the older regular 441's use to have, and two nuts holding the air baffle to the carb?
> 
> I have never seen a regular steel muffler on a 441 CM before, ours have always been Stainless Steel Mufflers. Thats different. Keep an eye on if it is "tuned" different, electronically from the factory or not from the stainless one.
> 
> Sam



Thanks Sam, that's the way it is. I was just missing the two nuts that hold the baffle on.

The "tune" won't really matter as the saw will be modded anyway. I'm just curious how far one can go on these before the auto tune can't supply enough fuel. I know Terry built several, but I can't find any info on enriching the metering system on the M-tronic.

The auto tune 562s that I build more than compensates for the mods. I am thinking that as long as the venturi isn't enlarged the low pressure signal should be strong enough to pull plenty of fuel. If the venturi was enlarged I think that's when fuel supple issues would show up as the low pressure signal would weaken....we shall see.




Stihlman441 said:


> The original stainless muff has been are lost somewhere.



Yep.



gcsupraman said:


> The original stainless muffler was modded. Stihl MS441RCM Free Muffler Mod - YouTube
> 
> About 3-4 weeks ago another AS member sent me a pm to inquire about the mod and was looking for some tips on how i did it. After some back and forth and a phone conversation, I offered to send him mine for free and he agreed to send his to randys shop (where my saw was going). I got a PM that he loved my muffler and that was the last i ever heard from him - i guess he decided to keep both mufflers . So after three weeks of no muffler we had to get a replacement.....and the black one was in stock.
> 
> ...



Thanks Greg for explaining what happened here. I didn't know the whole story, just that you got burned by one of our own.


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

HittinSteel said:


> Nice of you and your family to help out those victims.... I imagine it just comes naturally for you and you've instilled those values in your family.
> 
> oh, also interested in watching this saw progress



We should have been gone already if you ask me. 

You of the guys that has a trailer is running late. He is meeting me here so.........


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## blsnelling (Mar 7, 2012)

The 441C will have no trouble supplying the fuel required by the port work. The one I did is still running strong.


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## FATGUY (Mar 7, 2012)

subscribed.


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## naturelover (Mar 7, 2012)

Subscribed!


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## Stihlofadeal64 (Mar 7, 2012)

Subbed in with opcorn:! 
opcorn::


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## fastLeo151 (Mar 7, 2012)

*Sweeeeeeet!!!*

Im excited to see the results!

Andrew
(Btw Randy Get anthing in the mail yet?)


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> The 441C will have no trouble supplying the fuel required by the port work. The one I did is still running strong.



Thanks for the info Brad. That helps set my mind at ease. 

How to the 346 work out?



fastLeo151 said:


> Im excited to see the results!
> 
> Andrew
> (Btw Randy Get anthing in the mail yet?)



I'm not sure what all I got. I was gone until just a few minutes ago. My mailman and UPS guy both left several boxes in my van. I've not gone thru them yet.

I did get to run the 441 a bit today. I cut thru a nail and ruined a damn chain..........


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## porsche965 (Mar 7, 2012)

*Mastermind meets the 441C*

Absolutly subscribed!


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## gcsupraman (Mar 7, 2012)

Randy,

Not sure if you've seen this before but Sam posted info in another 441 M-Tronic thread on recalibrating a M-Tronic saw. Good info.



Slamm said:


> (To recalibrate a 441 M-Tronic) The directions are as follows:
> 
> 1. Remove the bar/chain and replace the cover (not sure why you have to have the cover back on).
> 2. Push the control lever all the way down to start.
> ...


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## deye223 (Mar 7, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I did get to run the 441 a bit today. I cut thru a nail and ruined a damn chain..........



them trees have a lot of nails in em over there if i was you i'd grab me trusty 30-30 and go hunt'in bums with a hammer in there hand LOL


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## Bowtie (Mar 7, 2012)

deye223 said:


> them trees have a lot of nails in em over there if i was you i'd grab me trusty 30-30 and go hunt'in bums with a hammer in there hand LOL



Railroad spikes suck even worse! Ask me how I know...:mad2:


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## deye223 (Mar 7, 2012)

Bowtie said:


> Railroad spikes suck even worse! Ask me how I know...:mad2:



looks like you put up with nails and i put up with grit

[video=youtube;FAotjPER9N8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAotjPER9N8&context=C4c8c017ADvjVQa1PpcFNoPlybCSLFd7A30hqs5RKsgZB8pZ1lGik=[/video]

sory for the derail randy


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## walexa07 (Mar 7, 2012)

subscribed!


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## Bowtie (Mar 7, 2012)

deye223 said:


> looks like you put up with nails and i put up with grit
> 
> [video=youtube;FAotjPER9N8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAotjPER9N8&context=C4c8c017ADvjVQa1PpcFNoPlybCSLFd7A30hqs5RKsgZB8pZ1lGik=[/video]
> 
> sory for the derail randy



Lot of sand blown into the lower trunks of trees around here. Living in the middle of the great plains we see wind all the time, and it is a sandy/silt area where I cut wood along the Solomon River. That crap embeds itself into the bark and grows into the tree.


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

OK I finally got out of the shop for the night. We had a hell of a day cutting up some big yard trees, hitting nails and wire every little bit. We did manage to clear out so they could use a skidsteer to start cleaning up the mess.....and a mess it was. I've never seen anything like that before.

Here's the low down for the numbers crunchers.

Stock compression: 145

Without a base gasket.......

Squish: .019 BTW the base gasket is .020 thick.

Ex: 102°

The transfers open progressively like the 261....

130° - 136.5°

In: 75°

I cut .045 from the squish band to raise compression and increase both strato and intake duration.

After machine work the squish was set at .025 and the intake was at 78° atdc.

Now for some pics of the disassembly.


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

Looks a lot like a 261.......











Not the best casting I've seen. We'll slick all that up though.


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

I brought a piece of oak back that's 30" in diameter........it came for a spot about 8' off the ground in one of the trees we cut up today. With a 28" B&C on the 441 I laid into it............hit a freaking nail!!!!!!!!! I check the other end of the piece out..........fixed the chain........hit another damn nail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ended up with a 20" B&C and a much smaller piece of some very hard white oak, but I finally got a video of the saw in wood. What a day.


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## tlandrum (Mar 7, 2012)

i know a guy that usually has clean wood near by.lol


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## Mastermind (Mar 7, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> i know a guy that usually has clean wood near by.lol



I need a damn chunk...... :msp_thumbup:


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## tlandrum (Mar 8, 2012)

i can puta big ol chunk in the truck for ya but getting it out is all on you and john. (kuckleboom not included):hmm3grin2orange:


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## DB43725 (Mar 8, 2012)

All I can say is WOW,,,,Their sure seems like a lota ports in that jug Randy, you might get sore fingers before ya get that one done ( LOL)


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

tlandrum said:


> i can puta big ol chunk in the truck for ya but getting it out is all on you and john. (kuckleboom not included):hmm3grin2orange:



You just call me when you have a big ass hunk............we can drag her out with a chain. 



DB43725 said:


> All I can say is WOW,,,,Their sure seems like a lota ports in that jug Randy, you might get sore fingers before ya get that one done ( LOL)



The exhaust port and upper transfers get the most of the attention in this saw. The intake and strato ports just get a good smoothing out.

I used a Dremel flex shaft for a long while.....it has about a 1/2" diameter handpiece. When I got a Foredom the larger handpiece felt awkward and it took a while to get used to it. Now when I have to use the smaller handpiece it makes my hand cramp and ache....


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 8, 2012)

Picks please.:biggrinbounce2:


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> Picks please.:biggrinbounce2:



LOL.......I'm still drinking coffee. It's 7:30 am here. 

I'll have more pics after work. I've not started the port work yet....just got the machine work all complete....

Cutting the squish band seems to be the ticket on a lot of saws. I've gotten used to doing it now, and with a handheld cutter it only takes a few minutes.

I just built a 660 for one of our members with the squish cut and the jug lowered enough to drop the exhaust to 98 degrees. That made the 660 come alive. I ran four tanks thru it yesterday and was very impressed. It's a different saw now.


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## John_DeereGreen (Mar 8, 2012)

Looking good Randy, looks to be a lot of material to work with there. 

I'm interested to see how this one works out...


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 8, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> LOL.......I'm still drinking coffee. It's 7:30 am here.
> 
> I'll have more pics after work. I've not started the port work yet....just got the machine work all complete....
> 
> ...



Sorry mate,a bit early for ya, its 1 am here just got home from work.


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## gcsupraman (Mar 8, 2012)




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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

gcsupraman said:


>



Sup Greg????????????

I was just hoping to find you. Call me.........lets talk about this muffler.

I need to know if a screen is a necessity for you. There's a lot of ways I can do this thing, but none of them work well with a screen.


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

Well the 441 is back together and it sounds freaking great!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I opened and slicked up the lowers a little bit.






Raised the transfers and leveled them up.






I widened the exhaust and raised it quite a bit, never did anything to the floor but slick it up. The ring end is beside the exhaust port but 68% of the bore is still possible. It doesn't look like much has been done here but a lot of material came out. 






This was a mistake. I took it apart this way but couldn't get the intake boot back through without pulling it back down and fitting the boots and carb housing to the jug then installing that all as a unit. This saw is a gold plated pain in the ass to R&R the jug on.


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## deye223 (Mar 8, 2012)

i new if i kept watching i would find out what that drill bit was doing


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

deye223 said:


> i new if i kept watching i would find out what that drill bit was doing



LOL that drill bit was plugging the fuel line.


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## blsnelling (Mar 8, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> This saw is a gold plated pain in the ass to R&R the jug on.



I told ya so


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## deye223 (Mar 8, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> LOL that drill bit was plugging the fuel line.



yeah i could not work it out in the other pic + it was in the am last night


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I told ya so



I'll say this Brad. This thing sounds very, very good. :msp_sneaky:


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

Interesting, I have never seen a ported strato cylinder look like that, but my experience is very limited.

Let me ask you, did you ever take the fuel tank off when you disassembled this saw? If you didn't then I can feel your frustration as re-assembly, and you must have saint like patience. While it does take a couple of minutes longer its makes certain aspects of it much easier and controlled, from my experience with others dis-assembly of the 441, I find that taking the tank off, provides a reassembly process almost completely void of curse words, LOL.

The 441 does take a little longer, but after a certain point it can be almost completely taken down with a screwdriver and your fingers. So yes there are more parts, but it takes seconds to get them all out. Again not making like it isn't more complicated, because it is, but I don't think its the wild nightmare that some have made it out to be.

Hey, what is the #2 stamped in the exhaust port for? I have most of my saws with that 2 stamped in it, I would have thought that if there was another number like a 1 or 3 or 4, I would have seen it by now, but I have only seen a 2 ........... what does it mean?

Sam


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

Slamm said:


> Interesting, I have never seen a ported strato cylinder look like that, but my experience is very limited.
> 
> Let me ask you, did you ever take the fuel tank off when you disassembled this saw? If you didn't then I can feel your frustration as re-assembly, and you must have saint like patience. While it does take a couple of minutes longer its makes certain aspects of it much easier and controlled, from my experience with others dis-assembly of the 441, I find that taking the tank off, provides a reassembly process almost completely void of curse words, LOL.
> 
> ...



I did not take the tank off........and I do have the patience of Job. 

I don't see anything out of the ordinary in the porting??? What area are you referring to Sam?

I do agree that, though this is a bit more work to disassemble but I could get used to it, and no it's not a "wild nightmare" 

The 2 is a mystery to me as well Sam.

I'll be putting it in wood tomorrow.........wish me luck.


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## blsnelling (Mar 8, 2012)

I've never taken the tank off a 441. I don't know why you'd want to.


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## Slamm (Mar 8, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I've never taken the tank off a 441. I don't know why you'd want to.



It makes reassembly a lot easier. I take the tank off and while it does take a little while longer, maybe 3 minutes with power tools. Those that don't take the tank off, cursed a lot more than I did, afterwards they now take the tank off and think life with the 441, while still more complicated is much smoother of a reassembly.

Was just pointing that out, maybe you guys like it that way or maybe not. Just a thought, based on how I've done it, and others seemed to like it.

Sam


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## gcsupraman (Mar 8, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I'll be putting it in wood tomorrow.........wish me luck.



Should run even better now that the carb is bolted down!! 

I think alot of members would like to know how this ported 441 M-tronic would stack up against a ported MS460. May I suggest a saw vs saw comparison test?


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## Mastermind (Mar 8, 2012)

Slamm said:


> It makes reassembly a lot easier. I take the tank off and while it does take a little while longer, maybe 3 minutes with power tools. Those that don't take the tank off, cursed a lot more than I did, afterwards they now take the tank off and think life with the 441, while still more complicated is much smoother of a reassembly.
> 
> Was just pointing that out, maybe you guys like it that way or maybe not. Just a thought, based on how I've done it, and others seemed to like it.
> 
> Sam



I appreciate the input Sam. This is the first 441 I've had apart........an easier way would be a blessing. 



gcsupraman said:


> Should run even better now that the carb is bolted down!!
> 
> I think alot of members would like to know how this ported 441 M-tronic would stack up against a ported MS460. May I suggest a saw vs saw comparison test?



When I get my hands on a large chunk of wood we shall see the 441 VS the 460 VS the 066.


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## tlandrum (Mar 8, 2012)

ive still got the piece you ran your 066 in. when ever it stops raining you can come try it out.


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## parrisw (Mar 9, 2012)

For myself, I found it was easier to reassemble the 441 with the tank off, it was still way more work then your usual average saw.


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

My money's on the 460, but that will be a very close race.


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 9, 2012)

How did you do the muff modd Randy ?.
Comp psi ?.


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## SawTroll (Mar 9, 2012)

DB43725 said:


> I guess every manufacture has a saw or to built on fridays,,,,,,,,,,



Monday saws are worse, made when everyone has a bad hangover.......:msp_scared:


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## M-tooth (Mar 9, 2012)

Subbed


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## John_DeereGreen (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm chomping at the bit for a video!!!!


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Stihlman441 said:


> How did you do the muff modd Randy ?.
> Comp psi ?.



Here are my final numbers....

Compression 170psi
Squish .025
Exhaust: 99*
Transfers: 128* and no longer progressive.
Intake: 78*

The muffler I modded like the pics I saw of Terry's muffler mod. The slot under the factory outlet just makes sense. I don't like that a screen cannot be easily utilized with the mod. Greg assured me that a screen is not necessary for his use though. I'll video the five tuning cuts the manual mentions after a bit.......these modded saws are loud and I try not to piss off the neighbors by running them early in the morning or late in the evening.


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## mdavlee (Mar 9, 2012)

Its 8:15 here randy. That's plenty late enought to run power tools isn't it? I'm sure my neighbors have been mad at me a few times. I forget people sleep past 7:30 a lot. I was outside about 7:15 one morning in the summer running a saw. I heard someone weed eating behind me a few houses over so I thought it was fair game. The wife wasn't impressed.:msp_sad:


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## Slamm (Mar 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> My money's on the 460, but that will be a very close race.



I agree. Hopefully Randy can run the saw a little while to get use to it before the race. Those wild differences in times that you had with MM one are due to the computer sorting things out at first in the beginning of the cut, or possibly it not being calibrated, or both.

I've had one that without calibration was the richest running saw I've seen a 441 engine be and still run, it pulled hard in the cut, but just smoked at start up and some when it idled. I calibrated it and made a few cuts and this fixed that over rich issue, but then the saw was stolen so no further testing was possible with that saw. It also drank gas like no tomorrow, if you stopped and started it from tree to tree, but if you let it idle, it got much better mileage?????

Randy, make sure you recalibrate it, as its possible the neat sound it makes is like a dragster with a big cam is due to running the wrong program for the additional air flow. When I MM one they do the same thing. They crack and pop and sound really mean, but they run better and faster after recalibration.

When you cookie cut with it. Try to cut something with it first and then go right into the "racing cut". Don't just start it and "race cut" it, it will run rich for the first couple of inches, then start to pull after that.

The best way I can describe how racing the 441 Mtronic is not the be all test for the saw is by describing another computer controlled product the Chevy Duramax and its transmission.

I drive like a grandma under normal conditions and when pulling a trailer. Rarely if ever will I make attempts to race a 7000+lb truck, but never the less, when I do it tries to shift like am still a grandma, which is not good for that particular race. So in measuring that truck's abilities based on a timed race is very limiting in measuring its overall capabilities as a work truck, no go pull some heavy trailer and the added benefit of that computer controlled tranny and engine system make the job so much easier, like driving a Cadillac by comparison to driving other trucks in the 2002 era. That is how the 441 CM is, the 460 is a hot rod in the race, but the 441 CM will cut more wood or outwork it easily.

Sam


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## deye223 (Mar 9, 2012)

andrews 441 is quicker than his aussi model 460 it's not ported the 441 is

28 ES lite


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Slamm said:


> I agree. Hopefully Randy can run the saw a little while to get use to it before the race. Those wild differences in times that you had with MM one are due to the computer sorting things out at first in the beginning of the cut, or possibly it not being calibrated, or both.
> 
> I've had one that without calibration was the richest running saw I've seen a 441 engine be and still run, it pulled hard in the cut, but just smoked at start up and some when it idled. I calibrated it and made a few cuts and this fixed that over rich issue, but then the saw was stolen so no further testing was possible with that saw. It also drank gas like no tomorrow, if you stopped and started it from tree to tree, but if you let it idle, it got much better mileage?????
> 
> ...



The owners manual says to make five uniform cuts to calibrate the system. Is that all it needs in your opinion?

It sounds "right" now, no cracking or anything out of the ordinary, just very responsive and strong.


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Another question.......how many guys have a 441 that has had a compression increase?


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## sharkness (Mar 9, 2012)

I just purchased a 441c last Saturday after my 576xp AT was stolen out of my truck. It seems that this saw and the 261 are a pain to mod. Is it more costly to have one of these ported vs. something like a 460.


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

sharkness said:


> I just purchased a 441c last Saturday after my 576xp AT was stolen out of my truck. It seems that this saw and the 261 are a pain to mod. Is it more costly to have one of these ported vs. something like a 460.



I feel like a feller should take the sugar with the ####. 

Same price for them all.


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Another question.......how many guys have a 441 that has had a compression increase?



I have only set the squish. No popup.


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## Slamm (Mar 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The owners manual says to make five uniform cuts to calibrate the system. Is that all it needs in your opinion?
> 
> It sounds "right" now, no cracking or anything out of the ordinary, just very responsive and strong.



Randy, I've never calibrated like that. I do the 1 minute thing with the bar off. I make 5 uniform cuts all day and can't say that, that's ever changed anything to my ear or feeling. But I think just about all of us 441 CM owners have noticed some difference after the 1 minute calibration.

I even do it when I am flipping a bar over in the woods or something. A couple of times, I've sat the saw down next to me and start it and let it calibrate, while I flip the chain and clean out the other oil hole. I haven't noticed as big of changes when do that inbetween things like muffler modds and such. But for instance, I'm going to start running some 100LL AV gas again, as now I've seen how it runs on 87-91 right now and then I'll fill with 100LL run it for awhile make mental notes, and then recalibrate to see if a change is made.

I had one of my saws that wouldn't hardly start or idle when I first bought it. I did the 1 minute calibrate and have had ZERO issues with it since.

Sam


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## gcsupraman (Mar 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> My money's on the 460, but that will be a very close race.



I agree....and I'm fine with that :msp_smile: I believe thanks to Randy and Tlandrum we're going to find out soon!



Slamm said:


> I agree. Hopefully Randy can run the saw a little while to get use to it before the race. Those wild differences in times that you had with MM one are due to the computer sorting things out at first in the beginning of the cut, or possibly it not being calibrated, or both.



Sam, Are there two different calibration methods? The owner's manual said to run the saw in 5 uniform cuts to calibrate (guess Randy saw that too) however you posted another calibration method (idle for 60 seconds no bar/chain). Where did you get the other one? Do both need to be done?



Mastermind said:


> I feel like a feller should take the sugar with the ####.



Now do you have a limit on how much #### you take from one customer? I'm up to two I think!



Mastermind said:


> Same price for them all



<img src="http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/w/what_a_relief-863.gif" border="0" alt="What a Relief" title = "What a Relief emoticon" />


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## Slamm (Mar 9, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Another question.......how many guys have a 441 that has had a compression increase?



Just base gasket removed.

Sam


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## Slamm (Mar 9, 2012)

I think the 1 minute calibration is what the dealer is suppose to do ............ not sure if all dealers are doing it though, and I can't remember where I read to do it. I think it was on here (AS) somewhere. I do it and it works, as in, something does happen, smoother idle and smoother rpms and more torque at the higher rpm range.

I have never read the manual, LOL.

Sam


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## deye223 (Mar 9, 2012)

read that one a couple a months ago me self don't remember where it was on as


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> I have only set the squish. No popup.



This one had no machine work. This was before I knew about the calibration too. I understand that it responded very well to the calibration after I sold it. The wood is dead Oak.

[video=youtube_share;lzpp0-PyvDo]http://youtu.be/lzpp0-PyvDo[/video]


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

OK men I have some videos uploading..........


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

What's the compression now? I wish I could remember what it was on the one I had.


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> What's the compression now? I wish I could remember what it was on the one I had.



170psi with the exhaust at 99°


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Here's the stock video....most of my chains were damaged from the tornado cleanup, it was getting dark so I had to use a 20" B&C This chain was well sharpened and the rakers were set with a Husky roller gauge. That's just some hard freaking wood. 

On these two cuts I got 13:47 and 14:22

[video=youtube;X_vmgrbQbcE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_vmgrbQbcE[/video]


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

That video, once again, just shows how well these saws pull in stock form. They are great runners!


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> That video, once again, just shows how well these saws pull in stock form. They are great runners!



Just wait till you see the next one. We're in the 9:00s now.


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

25" B&C same one that was damaged just resharpened.

9:50
9:00
8:97
9:21
9:15

[video=youtube;_iP81HZ6goM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iP81HZ6goM&list=UUg2yelCeKwB12xIohZfmf1g&index=1&feature=plcp[/video]


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## Tzed250 (Mar 9, 2012)




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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


> opcorn:



Pass the popcorn. I love the stuff. :msp_sneaky:


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Tzed250 said:


>



LMFAO


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## blsnelling (Mar 9, 2012)

Very nice Randy. Sounds like it maintained it's throttle response. Have you noticed it sometimes taking a bit to throttle down? Don't you just love the way the cuts times don't increase as it heats up


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## Slamm (Mar 9, 2012)

Looks good. Just run some quick numbers and looks like you easily are 34% faster with your modds, that is nothing to sneeze at. Excellent.

Did you calibrate it yet? If not, calibrate it and see what it times at.


Sam


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## Bowtie (Mar 9, 2012)

Excellent thread! Now ya got me wanting a 441 with Happytune!


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## showrguy (Mar 9, 2012)

Bowtie said:


> Excellent thread! Now ya got me wanting a 441 with Happytune!



so your ready to part with that 460 ??


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## gcsupraman (Mar 9, 2012)

Literally just walked in the door from a day of clearing a building lot......

The gains look impressive - there is a night and day difference between the stock and ported videos. I can only assume it will get better as it breaks in - I never even finished the first tank of fuel in it. 

What are you thoughts on the M-tronic system now that you've had a chance to run one?

Any predictions for this weekends saw race? 

Nice job man.

-Greg


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## Bowtie (Mar 9, 2012)

showrguy said:


> so your ready to part with that 460 ??



Not really but everything is for sale if the price is right!


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## phelps63 (Mar 9, 2012)

*From the Stihl Technical manual I was smart enough to save to desk top*

5.11 Calibrating the control unit
If the control unit or carburetor is replaced during
servicing, the M-Tronic must be calibrated.
. Remove the saw chain and guide bar
. Install chain sprocket cover
. Set Master Control Lever™ to Start }
. Start chain saw – do not blip the throttle trigger
. Let the engine run for at least 60 seconds in the
start position and then move the Master Control
Lever™ from the position Start} to STOP 0 –
calibration is finished
The control unit is adjusted to the carburetor while
the engine runs in the position Start}. The engine
must be switched off immediately for the information
to be stored in the control unit.


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## naturelover (Mar 9, 2012)

Awesome! 

I haven't done the one minute calibration, and unless it was done at the factory, mine never had gas in the tank when I picked it up.

Do notice what Slamm has said, it has a wicked idle. Lopes kinda like a big cammed motor, and sounds like its gonna blow the cylinder off. I like it! 

But only noticed it smoking and well, it farted a little bit during its first cuts, but hasn't smoked at idle. Cuts well though, doesn't seem to be running rich, but have been threatening to do the one minute calibration just to see if it made a difference. Kinda forgot about doing it the last time I had it out.

I bet that 441 will really run when it gets broke in!!!


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## phelps63 (Mar 9, 2012)

*here is the manual*

View attachment 228105


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## phelps63 (Mar 9, 2012)

mine has 8 tanks through it now and it gets stronger every tank. It is drained and I am looking for a box for it to be shipped out for a little lovin!:hmm3grin2orange:


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Slamm said:


> Looks good. Just run some quick numbers and looks like you easily are 34% faster with your modds, that is nothing to sneeze at. Excellent.
> 
> Did you calibrate it yet? If not, calibrate it and see what it times at.
> 
> ...



No I didn't Sam. I was unsure of the exact procedure. I will do that tomorrow and retest. 



Bowtie said:


> Excellent thread! Now ya got me wanting a 441 with Happytune!



I know how you feel. I mod a new saw that responds really well and I get to Jonesin for em. 



gcsupraman said:


> Literally just walked in the door from a day of clearing a building lot......
> 
> The gains look impressive - there is a night and day difference between the stock and ported videos. I can only assume it will get better as it breaks in - I never even finished the first tank of fuel in it.
> 
> ...



I love the M-tronic and the Auto-tune systems. They are a dream come true for a guy in my line of work. 

On the races.........My MS460 is tough to beat. 



phelps63 said:


> mine has 8 tanks through it now and it gets stronger every tank. It is drained and I am looking for a box for it to be shipped out for a little lovin!:hmm3grin2orange:



I know a guy that mods these saws. 

Thanks for posting the TI :msp_thumbup:


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## Bowtie (Mar 9, 2012)

*Amen*



Mastermind said:


> I know how you feel. I mod a new saw that responds really well and I get to Jonesin for em.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My 460 runs pretty sweet too, just wish I had more time to run it. Still on it's second tank since I got it back from you. 

Did I ever mention how much I have removing old rock wool insulation? Worse than installing the new R13 x 1000!


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## Mastermind (Mar 9, 2012)

Bowtie said:


> My 460 runs pretty sweet too, just wish I had more time to run it. Still on it's second tank since I got it back from you.
> 
> Did I ever mention how much I have removing old rock wool insulation? Worse than installing the new R13 x 1000!



I did new construction for many years. Remodeling was never something I got involved in. I looks........well, painful.


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## deye223 (Mar 10, 2012)

i'm gunna have a job for you in the not too distant future . now what can i sell haha


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

deye223 said:


> i'm gunna have a job for you in the not too distant future . now what can i sell haha



The dealer here is hooking me up with some good pricing. Just let me know Darren. I see a MS441CRM in your future too. 

I'm gonna try to run some more fuel thru Greg's 441 today. Hopefully I'll get the time. In my shop waiting on port wort there's a 660, 261, 395, 460..........................


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## mdavlee (Mar 10, 2012)

You should have all of them done today shouldn't you I need to run one of these 441 cms one day.


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## gcdible1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Alll of the used ms441's on ebay are NOT M-tronics. Maybe they are seeing it too. So, Randy you are lucky to have a good dealer locally. Mine acted as if getting a wrap handled saw ordered was work. Geesh, youd think they'd be happy to. And im sure they prob wont budge off msrp. I may have to let you get the next one!


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## deye223 (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> The dealer here is hooking me up with some good pricing. Just let me know Darren. I see a MS441CRM in your future too.
> 
> I'm gonna try to run some more fuel thru Greg's 441 today. Hopefully I'll get the time. In my shop waiting on port wort there's a 660, 261, 395, 460..........................



i know brad done the first 261 but then it was all quiet what have we started LOL 

441 as soon as the 460 is lubed up and gone


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## Officer's Match (Mar 10, 2012)

blsnelling said:


> The 441C will have no trouble supplying the fuel required by the port work. The one I did is still running strong.



It is Brad, I really love that saw. The 60sec calibration improved my throttle response, or more specifically, modulation. Easier to control rpm in and out of the cut. Kinda' made it "more stock" feeling without giving back the ported power gains. 

I know it is bulkier and slightly heavier than a 440/460, but once you run one (especially one opened up a bit), you _will_ love it.

BTW Brad, I really don't think I ever asked you what psi it made, but seat-of-the-pants feel is good pop (I don't have a guage).

Randy, that saw went from strong to absolutely fantastic - excellent job sir.


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## Slamm (Mar 10, 2012)

gcdible1 said:


> Alll of the used ms441's on ebay are NOT M-tronics. Maybe they are seeing it too.



You're not likely to see many used ones on the market, its the Cadillac of saws. They are tough, smooth and fast. Proper modding only makes them better.

Sam


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## Stihlman441 (Mar 10, 2012)

A ported 460 and a ported 441CMTronic,the 460 may be a little quicker at the races but the CMTronics are better in every other way.

Better
AV
Filter system
Easy start
No tune
Less fuel
Less fumes
:msp_biggrin:


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## Mastermind (Mar 10, 2012)

I've got video processing of a 441, 460, 066 , and 660 in chestnut oak over 30" diameter. All the saws are modded....

I'll be putting up a new thread after while.


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## ptjeep (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've got video processing of a 441, 460, 066 , and 660 in chestnut oak over 30" diameter. All the saws are modded....
> 
> I'll be putting up a new thread after while.



I always wanted to be in a foursome! Looking forward to it.


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## gcsupraman (Mar 10, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I've got video processing of a 441, 460, 066 , and 660 in chestnut oak over 30" diameter. All the saws are modded....
> 
> I'll be putting up a new thread after while.



http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/195865.htm#post3536882


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## Arbonaut (Sep 14, 2012)

phelps63 said:


> View attachment 228105



Super big shout out to Phelps63 for the link to this manual. This is totally golden.

Thanks, Randy for one hell of a thread.


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## Mastermind (Sep 14, 2012)

Ronald Reagan said:


> Super big shout out to Phelps63 for the link to this manual. This is totally golden.
> 
> Thanks, Randy for one hell of a thread.



Strange that this one popped up......I just ordered a MS441CRM.


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## Arbonaut (Sep 14, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Strange that this one popped up......I just ordered a MS441CRM.



I'm not strange. I'm special.


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## naturelover (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks for the manual Phelps63!


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## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2012)

Ronald Reagan said:


> I'm not strange. I'm special.



Looks like you earned a "special" trip to banned camp. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## fastLeo151 (Sep 16, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> Strange that this one popped up......I just ordered a MS441CRM.



Thought you already had a 460?


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## Mastermind (Sep 16, 2012)

fastLeo151 said:


> Thought you already had a 460?



I did....but it's gone.

The 441 ain't mine anyway.


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## Species 8472 (Sep 16, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> I did....but it's gone.
> 
> The 441 ain't mine anyway.



would that be heading my way downunder by any chance?


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## Mastermind (Sep 17, 2012)

Species 8472 said:


> would that be heading my way downunder by any chance?



It will be leaving the states after I grind, weld, flog......... :hmm3grin2orange:


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## DB43725 (Sep 17, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It will be leaving the states after I grind, weld, flog......... :hmm3grin2orange:



O MY !!!!!! Flog,,,,This sounds serious ,,,,,,,,,,,:msp_ohmy:


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## Rudolf73 (Sep 17, 2012)

Mastermind said:


> It will be leaving the states after I grind, weld, flog......... :hmm3grin2orange:



Lol 'flog'... you sound like an Aussie already


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## Andrew Wellman (Apr 23, 2013)

*Randy, any compression work?*



Mastermind said:


> Here are my final numbers....
> 
> Compression 170psi
> Squish .025
> ...



compression work? or does the strato timing not do well with a shift in the ports on the jug downward.


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## Mastermind (Apr 23, 2013)

Andrew Wellman said:


> compression work? or does the strato timing not do well with a shift in the ports on the jug downward.



I sent you a email.....


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## VinceGU05 (Aug 1, 2013)

Slamm said:


> I think the 1 minute calibration is what the dealer is suppose to do ............ not sure if all dealers are doing it though, and I can't remember where I read to do it. I think it was on here (AS) somewhere. I do it and it works, as in, something does happen, smoother idle and smoother rpms and more torque at the higher rpm range.
> 
> I have never read the manual, LOL.
> 
> Sam



do u do this from cold or the saw already nicely warmed up? brake on or off?


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## Stihlman441 (Aug 1, 2013)

Cold brake off.

It will run crap during this,smoke,splutter and so on.


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