# help, why am I grooving



## chainsaw papa (Feb 1, 2020)

Hello and thanks for your time , I am relatively new to this although i have been cutting 10 chords a year for about ten years now so i'm used to chain sharpening for the purpose of tearing through fast. However I've only milled just over thirty ten footers and ive been having trouble with grooving through out the cut like a washboard. I'm using a stihl 461 with a 32 inch bar. Everything I've been milling is between 15- 24 wide, all red oak that's been standing dead and one old maple. I'm assuming the problem is with the chain and more specifically me sharpening it. I've been having a few issues, originally my stihl dealer gave me a pair of full skip chain when i asked for ripping chain and told me they were the same which iv'e now leaned the differences ,, after the second cut or so with the new chain its been taking me over 20-27 min for a 9+ foot oak 15-20 inchs across, sometimes running out of gas before it finishes. I "feel" like i'm sharpening it well and doing it after every cut at this point. I'm using the stihl long gauge you lay on top of the chain to check the depth gauge risers but no matter how many times i have filled the chain it still says they don't need to get filled down even tho it acts like its blowing powder out, am i just using it wrong?Do those gauges not work on skip chain for some reason? I can only assume my chain is no longer grabbing anything as progress eventually ground till a halt but the gauge still reads below the file level. So this painfully slow forever filing is all I ever knew. After getting frustrated with the saw not cutting i threw on a new regular chain that I had picked up, I started cutting the same logs in 7-8 min, half a tank of gas leftover and the saw was pulling me through out the cut gently, it was like everything i had read about. between cuts 5-7 it started to leave shallow but more prevalent chain grooving in the cut and had slowed down, so I sharpened it, I tried being careful to maintain even pressure on every tooth and counted my strokes. and when i returned for a cut it pulled right through again but not as smoothly or as fast as when new and it also left very deep chain grooves. It was only the first time sharpening it I didn't think I could mess up five strokes that fast. After that cut i tried again this time with the stihl 2-1 in case the depth gauge needed to go down or get even, I went back and it tore right down the log but again with very deep groves. So i guess one of my questions finaly is does the teeth wear very unevenly from side to side because of the pressure of horizontal cutting even when using alot of wedges? I just picked up a tool to measure the length of the teeth so i can keep them even but when I checked them there was a difference but maybe only a pen tip,,is that all it takes for such a severe reaction? do you need to measure them evertime you sharpen the chain then for milling? And if the stihl depth gauge tool dosnt work on skip chain then how do you all file them so there even because dosnt there height control more of the grooving then the length of the tooth? I would also love any ideas for covering and storing your piles ,my current plan was to wrap them in weed fabric to keep the rain off but still looking for a suitable cover. I have a few adds on Craigslist for scrap metal sheets from roofing but have hurd nothing for awhile now. Any ideas to do with the end cuts? Any and all of your help is greatly appreciated I have exhausted myself reading this past 10 months and I have three kids 3 1/2 and under so 20+ min a cut and all this trial and error with the chain is getting tiresome. Thanks again if you've managed to read to the end is. Also I live in CT there is literally NO ONE around here that does this to talk with and the three closest dealers to me have absolutely no idea about chainsaw milling other then knowing what it is and they have no other customers that do it that they could give my number to for help. Thanks and take care


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## 86 350x (Feb 1, 2020)

I think your chain is you main problem , filed between 5-10 degrees should work or ripping chain and think you grooving should lessen


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 1, 2020)

thanks, I have read alot about changing the tooth angle and have just wanted to get the basics down before I played around with it and also wasn't sure if it would be to hard on may saw. Now why would the chain cut clean out of the box at the normal angle but not after some use or me sharpening it, wouldn't the stock angle be at least good enough? thanks again for your help


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## M.R. (Feb 1, 2020)

Bar condition / ??? Wear...


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 1, 2020)

The bar is in pretty good shape I thought the bar might have gotten smoked a bit which is another reason i put a new chain on and eliminated that when the new chain cut smooth, thanks for the help


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## andy at clover (Feb 2, 2020)

I would suggest you take your skip chain(s) in for a grinder sharpening at a saw shop... kind of a re-set.
Get all the teeth and raker lengths the equaled up.
When you're in there, take your raker depth gauge in with you and have the shop demonstrate how it works .....it sounds like something is incompatible ... maybe your gauge does not work with skip chains.
I don’t know what you mean by long guage but it sounds like the culprit.... maybe not.

A couple other tips. (You may already be doing these).
Keep your chain tensioned to the tight-ish side to start the day... it will loosen up.
An over loose chain can cause gouging.

Stop as seldom as possible and keep the saw in the same angle the entire length of cut.

Also, when you run a pass, allow the tip of the bar to get out ahead of the powerhead end by a few bar widths if possible.
Avoid having the powerhead end lead or having the bar perpendicular to the rip.
This I have found gives the best cut and allows the rakers to do the “self feed” of a pass....
At the beginning of a pass, After I get the entire width of the bar into the log, I sort of anchor the powerhead end and pivot bar tip forward a few inches or more depending on how much extra bar length you have... wider pieces will allow less angle.... too much is too much.
Then, for the rest of the cut keep it at that angle... the finish surface of the cut really improves and feeding runs smoother.
You may have a bit of surface variation at the beginning of the rip but after developing a fluid technique it’s pretty good.
This method helped improve my surface quality the most of anything


I run Stihl skip chisel chains with the factory top plate angle and have been pretty happy with speed and finish surface for softwoods.
A reduced top plate angle will cost some speed of cut but, the surface finish will be nicer for hardwoods.
Skip chain clear chips best and are faster to sharpen with fewer cutters.
For long bars or underpowered saws they are really great.

That’s a mouthful. 

good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 2, 2020)

wow andy at clover thanks so much for such a detailed response. I have spent so many hours reading watching and researching this topic and its the first ive herd of the chain tension effecting the cut, how tight do you keep yours? i was a little worried about getting too much heat if I had it tight.great tip among others. I was also running the saw power head first most of the time as it seamed to feed better for me I thought but would get caught up on the inconsistencies of the side. I did notice when switching to the regular chain it pulled through better and with the nose but did notice needing more throttle to get through the cut compared to the full skip but for me it was saving 16 min a cut or so. 
Ive now spent the last hour plus looking into the granberg file n joint system. I feel this can eliminate any problems of user error as well as saving me having to pay the dealer to bring them back. Any thoughts on the hand file vrs electric? I was leaning towards there cheaper hand file version unless the electric is superior. you also are keeping your tooth angle at factory huh? most what i read says to bring it to ten degrees but im worried about stressing the 461 out with the blunter edge. perhaps lower the angle on the skip chain but keep factory for the full chisel? Is the ten degree angle done more for speed or finish? Thanks again for your time, I'm so hooked on this.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 2, 2020)

As I'm thinking more about what you said the chain tightening makes a lot of sense and would explain why it progressed slowly increasing with each cut as the new chain stretched out before i ever touched it to do something wrong, and I'm sure my hand filing isnt perfect and equal on each side as maybe needing for milling vrs bucking fire wood and it only made the situation worse. Also looking back the regular chain tended to grab a lot more and was pulling off the bar alittle as I slowed down at the end of the cut. So how tight should the chain be? also Ive seen some videos of guys grinding every other pair of teeth down narrower on skip chains to make scoring teeth does this help in speed also or just the finish? could you also do something like that on the full chain to help with the finish as well as take some strain off the saw running the full chain. I had such a better experience in speed with the full chain I had ordered two more that night but I also have the two full skip to straighten up. Does the lower filing angle help in speed or just in smoothness? Sorry I'm throwing so much at you its just so exciting having someone to talk to abut this stuff, cs milling is a lonely hobby out my way, thanks again


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## babybart (Feb 2, 2020)

I don't see too much difference in finish between ripping chain and cross cut chain IMO. Like Andy said, keep your chain tight and your bar dressed. When I start to get some bar wear I notice more grooving as the chain kinda lays over in the cut. The rakers play a larger part in milling as that helps pull your saw through the cut where as cutting firewood you can lay on the saw to help. I don't know if you read through the Milling 101 but there is a lot of good info to be found!


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 2, 2020)

Hello again and thankyou all for all your help. I have deffintly spent alot of time reading the milling 101, lots of great info there but nothing beats being able to ask specific questions. As for my bar it was new before doing the three hundred board feet and apears to be in good shape however I did notice a small section on the metal that appeard to be peeling back a little problemly from over heating while using the skip chain while the depth gauges weren't lowered enough to bite well. That being said I then lightly filled back the little peel and the grove and bar seamed fine to me and when I put the new chain on it cut great and smooth. Could a bad bar change the way the chain cuts after 5-7 passes or would it be bad from the start? How do I know if the bar is bad,, the chain has a little side to side motion in the middle of the bar and not much towards the ends, is that normal on a long bar (32)?


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## andy at clover (Feb 2, 2020)

chainsaw papa said:


> wow andy at clover thanks so much for such a detailed response. I have spent so many hours reading watching and researching this topic and its the first ive herd of the *chain tension effecting the cut, how tight do you keep yours?* i was a little worried about getting too much heat if I had it tight.great tip among others. I was also running the saw power head first most of the time as it seamed to feed better for me I thought but would get caught up on the inconsistencies of the side. I did notice when switching to the regular chain it pulled through better and with the nose but did notice *needing more throttle* to get through the cut compared to the full skip but for me it was saving 16 min a cut or so.
> Ive now spent the last hour plus looking into the *granberg file n joint system*. I feel this can eliminate any problems of user error as well as saving me having to pay the dealer to bring them back. Any thoughts on the *hand file vrs electric*? I was leaning towards there cheaper hand file version unless the electric is superior. you also are keeping your tooth angle at factory huh? most what i read says to bring it to ten degrees but im worried about *stressing the 461* out with the blunter edge. perhaps lower the angle on the skip chain but keep factory for the full chisel? Is the ten degree angle done more for speed or finish? Thanks again for your time, I'm so hooked on this.



*chain tension effecting the cut, how tight do you keep yours?*
Depends on the bar length. With a 36" I keep them tight enough that you can pull the chain about 3/4"" out of the bar groove and then it snaps back. Longer bars are tough to get that tight.
The chain needs to be able to "porpoise" in order to cut well but no be so loose that it wobbles and grooves.


*needing more throttle*
Try and keep the saw at Wide Open Throttle whenever you cut. It's healthiest for the powerhead and also will keep more oil flowing.
Oiling is kind of a side-note in this regard but....I've noticed my Stihls pump way less oil at less than full throttle... That's a big deal.


*granberg file n joint system*
Never tried one. I file by hand. Someone else will probably comment.

*hand file vrs electric*?
I guess I'm lucky that I have a great Saw shop 10mins away. They do all my grinding so I never even considered anything other than hand filing for touch ups. 
When My chains need a grind I just take em in. I usually touch up file every 30' of milling. I'm running a bigger saw and keep my rakers pretty low. 
It helps the saw self feed. I think once you get your rakers right, you'll have better self feed and improved cut quality.

*stressing the 461*
It's a great saw and should be fine. There is a HO oiler available... instal it if you did not already. Just keep a load on the saw and run sharp chains at WOT. Good fuel mix at 40:1. If you keep milling, consider a 100Cube+ saw .
Since you read the 101, you know about getting the log into and sloped position to make use of gravity.
If you use gravity and just let the saw cut, the 461 should have plenty of "rear end" to power through 15"-20" logs with a 32" bar.
Consider opening up the muffler port to help it cool and give a bit more power. Tons written on that.

Have fun!


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 2, 2020)

Hello again and as always thanks for your time, I wont have a chance to do some milling until wendsday but checking the chain now it definitely pulls out much farther then 3/4 so I'm really optimistic about tightening it up and getting much better results. I still think my teeth are uneven on the sides as i noticed it was cutting and sending out good size shavings but also some powder so maybe one side is much better then the the other, I'm going to put the chain on the caliper tonight after the game and true it all up, How do you guys measure the rakers to keep them even if not using the stihl tool that lays on top and has them poke through, am I right that uneven rakers can really groove out the wood also? As for the gas mixture I hadnt thought about running 40-1 and have been doing the standard 50-1, 40-1 is better for the engine right? just smokes a little more. I also didnt relize that running the saw wide open was easier on it and helps it cool. also hadnt notice the oil consuption being less when not wide open,,,I did already make an aux oiler out of an old brake fluid container. it holds enough oil with out being extra heavy, a see through hose and a fuel petcock from tracter supply to control the drip, 5$ invesment . 
I just found the section on this site for product review so im going to look up the grandberg file, ive been hand filling for twenty plus years with no issue and now with milling im a lost little fish in a big pond making wash boards. 
If your interested I uploaded in the picture thread a couple pictures of my latest slabs to make a family dinner table, wood was harvested from our front and back yard so i think thats extra cool.
thanks!!


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## rarefish383 (Feb 5, 2020)

Pictures on both sides of this issue would really help. I mill with a Homelite Super 1050, 36" bar and out of the box Stihl .404 chain. The bar is 48 years old, and was used 20 plus years in commercial tree work. My other milling saw is a Stihl 660 with 36" bar, out of the box Stihl chain. I don't get any grooving, so I know it's not the cutter angle. Loose chain, dull chain, rocking back and forth, can cause grooving, or what I call chatter marks. I wouldn't start changing angles until I found out what the root cause is. I know you've been using saws for years. I was in the commercial tree business for 30 years, and was fourth generation, so I know sharp saws too. The hardest thing for me to learn was a sharp bucking saw does not equate into a sharp milling saw. I mill almost all Oak, and cut almost all Oak firewood. I did an experiment where I milled with my Super 1050 till it started to slow down in the cut. Took it off the mill and started cutting firewood. It still cut firewood like hot butter. I milled these slabs with the 660, 3 passes on the planer and they were ready for finish. The cutter angle has little to do with poor finish, there is something else going on.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 5, 2020)

I skipped a lot of the post because I know most of the guys and know what they say. We talk about this quite a bit. I can only get 3-4 8' cuts of 24" wide Oak and have to touch up the chain. I did mill some Dawn Redwood and got 20 plus slabs before I needed to sharpen. Type of wood matters a lot too.


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## zdinks (Feb 5, 2020)

I have one suggestion. Get a Grandberg electric sharpener. This will completely change your experience. Doesn't matter if you occasionally mill once or twice a year or do it professional for hire nearly every day. This will be a game changer. It is worlds faster and more accurate than by hand and at a pretty reasonable price point (around $75). I can sharpen my 36" bar (still attached to my mill) to near perfect in no more than a couple minutes. You can even hold a beer in one hand and sharpen with the other! Do I sound like a spokesperson for Grandberg yet (I'm not, but if they want to send me some free shwag I'm waiting).


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 6, 2020)

Hello and thank you all for your continued advice. So hears an update on where I'm at. Before going out to cut today I showed my regular full chain some love and measured each tooth and brought everything down sharp and equal. I was able to get in 110 board feet with various success. All in all it cut fast and the blade was sharp. When making my starter cut the first and last eight inchs or so were smooth but the rest was pretty grooved. I assumed maybe it was the slower throttle speed getting into and out of the cut. I tried again slower and also the bar more straight across as when starting and ending. That didn't seam to matter and the whole cut was grooved. For some reason perhaps being under powered but the saw never likes to lead with the nose, it dosn't grab into the wood and pull itself however the power head is always grabbing and wanting to go forward so if i lead with the nose I have to almost push with my outer hand while pulling back on the power head side and fight it. Now each cut I would tighten the chain some more hoping to fix the grooves. It seams on the 32 inch bar grabbing the chain you can always pull it out of the rails and if you tighten it to where you cant it's too tight to slide with your hand. As the cuts went by it would get worse to where I would take my 391 and do a skim coat cut across the top just to knock the grooves down some. One thing I did notice was the boards were peeling up as I cut them so I tried while still using my wedges lightly I put a small log on the end of board to keep it from rising incae it gave the chsain room to dance but to no luck. So I had an almost ten foot oak log in the air supported on each end, could that have caused some weird pressure? Now as I got through the log and into narrower cuts I noticed it was getting smoother, still grooved but not needing the skim coat. Now i wasn't sure if it was just getting to easier wood to cut by getting through the log or the chain finally being tight enough. I then started the next big oak about 20 across and the cut was still pretty chattered. This was now the seventh cut and it was slowing down so I went in to air compress the bar groove and powerhead and throw on a new full chain. Eventually I may have tightened the chain too much as I noticed the bar rail peeling back and out a bit under the cover I'm assuming from the heat and over tension? I'm going to try and add a picture after, The picture makes it look worse then it is. The groove still seams tight everywhere tho. With the new chain on I did another 4 or 5 cuts, I still had grooving through out the whole thing but not as deep, more like heavy chatter marks. Although it was better it still wasn't as smooth as I had cut some other slabs before. Rarefish383 I saw your other message about the large slabs I pictured and the finish on those I couldn't be happier with. Unless I've smoked the bar out to where it lets the chain dance to much I'm not sure how anything is different. Which leads to my next question,, everything I'm milling up is old oak that the gypsey moths killed about three years ago and had been standing dead. I dropped them in the spring but after processing the fire wood life got in the way and I hadn't had a chance to get to them until now. Oak is already a hard wood and being dead and dry is tuff on the chains and seams to almost dry them out , can the chain be grooving in because the wood is so hard it dosn't bite in easily and skips around more? Ill also try and add a picture of the grooves. As for zdinks I had been looking at that sharpener but had ordered the manual version of it, maybe at this time the money saved will be going to a new bar, I really like the idea of the set up knowing all your angles are true and having the ability to set stoppers I think is key, and this way I can still enjoy the relaxing hand file. Thanks again for all your help and to anyone who made it through this.


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## babybart (Feb 6, 2020)

Bar. I am willing to bet if you try to crosscut a log with that bar it will cut in a curve.


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## BobL (Feb 6, 2020)

CP, I suggest inserting a few paragraph breaks into your posts as your very long paragraphs are very difficult to follow 

Time I think to see some close up pics of your cutters like this.


To get a proper chain analysis the pics must be direct side on as shown below, "in focus", show at least 3 cutters and you can leave the chain on the bar.

I'm a tad concerned about your bar as it should not suffer that sort of damage on your soft/hardwood (ie nowhere near as hard as I cut), do you use an Aux oiler?
If not I would fit one as a first step. Bar bur needs to be removed as soon as it is formed and the bar rails need to be dressed otherwise even a slight unevenness between the bar rails can cause probs including grooving.

To determine the cause(s) of grooving (washboarding) is tricky as there's usually not a single cause but a combo of factors coinciding to produce this effect. the factors include; chain speed, cutting sped, log width, wood hardness, and aggressiveness of chain cutter/raker setup. If any one of these factors changes ie chain becomes slightly dull, wood becomes slightly wider, the washboarding can appear or disappear.

Washboarding is very difficult to sort out but one thing you can try immediately is angling the mill so more of the bar is used. It has to be done more than just a tad , as much as you can. This should slow down the cutting speed and may help. If that doesn't work a different cutter profile may be needed and that's why I asked for some chain picks.

Below is an example of washboarding appearing on the first cut in a hard (its green, but it's much harder than dry walnut) log, and then no washboarding, until I I get to the final (bottom cut where it appeared again) . The cost were made using exact same chain/saw etc. The first and last cuts being much narrower and containing more slightly softer (ie more sap wood) than the middle of the log was enough to make the difference.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 7, 2020)

Hello BobL and thanks for your time and advise, I'll try and remember some paragraphs,,I tend to ramble.

I'll put a picture of the last two chains I was using. I havnt re sharpended them yet and one has 12 cuts on it and the other maybe five.

I do use a aux oilier that I made, I didn't drill the bar so it just drips on the chain returning in which I thought was alright but one of the chains does look pretty dry.

As for the bar rails I'm assuming i just flat file it down but what do you mean by dress the rails? The bar groove doesn't seam to be uneven and feels the same when I clean it out with the stihl gauge tool. Anyway to tell if the bar is still good enough for milling so I can eliminate that

In regards to changing the bar angle, the saw never seams to grab into the wood when I put a good angle on it and when I lead with the nose it fights the whole way. The wood is very dry and hard and I wasnt sure if too much bar in the cut is bad for the saw so I often reverted back to more straight across or leading with the power head which it seams to like

Thanks for the pictures the one on the left looks just like what I've been experiencing however my first and last cuts seam to be the best because of the soft wood which is opposite to your experience


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## BobL (Feb 7, 2020)

In dry wood this is the amount of aux oil I like to see on the bar. It also has to drip right on the point where the chain and bar meet.
If it just drips on the chain or bar alone it won't do much.



A quick look at your chains shows the following.
I can't seen anything that could cause the washboarding - what I was looking for was aggressive "Hook" or "Top plate cutting angle".
If anything the hook is less than I would use.

One chain is obviously newer (almost stock) than the other so I will only mention the older chain
On the older chain the gullet widths are clearly not the same, some are quite a bit wider than others.
This then means the cutter lengths will not be the same. Maybe get out a pair of callipers and check.
Identical length cutters are not critical provided the raker angles are all the same - I haven't worried about cutter lengths too much for a long time but I do try to get my raker angles close to the same.

This is all discussed in the Milling 101 sticky and I refer to is at "Progressive chainsaw sharpening", but perhaps applying it to your cutters will help.

Below shows a picture of one of your cutters and shows what I mean by raker angle.
It's basically the ratio of the "raker depth"relative to the cutter, to the width of the gullet or the width of the red line relative to the length of the red line.
This is one of the shallowest raker angles on the picture you posted.
The red line has a length pf 245 pixels and a depth of 11 pixels which works out to a raker angle (blue line)of just 2.6º which means it is way to low and will produce mostly powder.




Stock new 3/8 crosscut chain typically has a raker depth of 0.025" and a gullet with of 0.25" which works out to a raker angle of 5.7º.
This is the minimum raker angle I would use on any of my milling saws to make mostly chips and minimum powder.

Here is a slightly better one from your photo.
This one has a angle of 5.0º - but its still less than optimum.



The optimum raker angle for milling depends on the wood hardness and width and the power of tech saw.
On my 880 with the 60" bar in very hard wood I typically use angles of 6.5º shown in pic below. Note how low the raker is


On my 441 with the 25" bar and Lopro chain I use 7.5º, its grabby as hell and there is more B&C wear but it makes really nice chips.
Some members with 660s use up to 9.5º in softwoods - again more B&C and more vibe but boy does it cut fast.

if you do't want to work out the actual angle its just as easy to thing in terms of ratios.
The ratio I'm referring to is the "Gullet width" to "Raker depth", and stock 3/8 chain has a ratio of 10.
For milling especially in soft woods, ratios lower than this will produce much less powder and more chips.
A raker angle of 6.5º translates to a ratio of about 9:1
A raker angle of 7º = ratio of ~8:1
A raker angle of 8º = ratio of ~7:1
A raker angle of 9º = ~6:1

If you go above these raker angles the vibe will become really noticeable and the saw may become unusable.
Also be aware that high raker angles increases the likelihood of kick back so I avoid using a high raker angle chain for a cross cutting.
This is not an issue for milling, especially and Alaskan type mill.

If there are a few cutters with higher raker angles that all the others this may contribute to washboarding.
When the rakers angles as all close to each other each cutting cutter will grab the same amount of wood producing a more even cut which may help reduce the chances of washboarding.
However, I don't think washboarding can be completely eliminated because of all the other factors involved.

Using progressive chainsaw sharpening means the raker has to be dropped much more than conventional raker depth gauges allow but does mean the chain will continue to cut well even when it is at the very end of its life.
This means there will be very little cutter and almost be no raker left when the chain is finally disposed of
Here's an extreme example of one of my 441 Lopro chains before I tossed it out. 
When the rakers are this low the chain has problems clearing chips which limits cutting speed so it was not cutting as well as new chain but it was at least still making chips and very little powder.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 7, 2020)

Wow BobL thanks so much for taking the time to do that for me. That is a lot of great info that I'm going to have to mill over. Do you have any holes in your bar for the oil or is it just resting in the right spot? I'll have to fix my end of the hose it has been moving around a little the last few cuts. It was attached with zip ties and the electrical tape finally stretched.

I'm really surprised that my chain was that out of uniform. I had used a set of calipers and thought the teeth were all the right length. I had made all the teeth the length of the smallest one on the chain is that right or do you only have to match the smallest on each side? Ive seam to have read it both ways on places. As for the rakers I had used the stihl 2 in 1 file just for the reason of the rakers being uniform and then checked it on this stihl tool then rounded out the front. I did just get today in the mail the grandberg file n joint so ill be able to set my angles and depth and try and be true.

So I only have hard woods for milling, they are all oak a and all have been dead and I have not seen a chip fly out of that saw for more then twenty seconds in 450 board feet before its just making powder, I had no idea there was another way. Now when you say hell on the bar and chain do you mean they need to get replaced sooner or just more frequent maintenance filling down the bar bur and sharpening the chain.

Now I'm running a stihl 461 with a 32nh bar in hard wood. With out straining the power head what would you recommend setting my rakers and gullet at for a regular chain as the box shown above and also for a skip chain that is one I picked up that the stihl dealer made? the nice thing with this new file system I can set it to the top of the raker then adjust it, every click is .010,,it should really help me true out all my chains.

I watched a video with a guy using skip chain and he filed every other two cutters narrow to make ripping chain would that be better? Do you use skip chain or reg full? I found the skip chain to be nicer in someways but painfully slow, but perhaps if I lowered my rakers enough it would be tolerable.

perhaps if my rakers are too low for milling that’s why I can’t get the saw to lead the cut with the nose, I just asked rarefish383 this on another thread also But if my bar is bad can it hurt my chain so if I put that chain into a new bar it’ll then hurt the new bar?
I ll be sure to keep reading through the miling 101
Thanks again


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## BobL (Feb 8, 2020)

chainsaw papa said:


> Wow BobL thanks so much for taking the time to do that for me. That is a lot of great info that I'm going to have to mill over. Do you have any holes in your bar for the oil or is it just resting in the right spot? I'll have to fix my end of the hose it has been moving around a little the last few cuts. It was attached with zip ties and the electrical tape finally stretched.


Yeah Zip ties are not the best.
My aux oiler delivery support goes right through the bar clamp - I used to have holes through my bars (see old oiler mount in pic below) but I replaced it with a drip oiler
View attachment 796257

Here is a simple one I made for a mate.
View attachment 796255

Thats a black poly irrigation fitting and a piece of threaded rod through the piece of steel strap. This enables the height to be adjusted so the gap is ~1/16" so the oil does not drop but wicks out direct onto the bar/chain



> I'm really surprised that my chain was that out of uniform. I had used a set of calipers and thought the teeth were all the right length. I had made all the teeth the length of the smallest one on the chain is that right or do you only have to match the smallest on each side? Ive seam to have read it both ways on places. As for the rakers I had used the stihl 2 in 1 file just for the reason of the rakers being uniform and then checked it on this stihl tool then rounded out the front. I did just get today in the mail the grandberg file n joint so ill be able to set my angles and depth and try and be true.


The "top plate cutting angle" which is the "hook" is the main angle to worry about since this determines the self feed rate of the saw.
Look here for details https://www.arboristsite.com/commun...nts-tips-and-tricks.93458/page-6#post-4107285



> So I only have hard woods for milling, they are all oak a and all have been dead and I have not seen a chip fly out of that saw for more then twenty seconds in 450 board feet before its just making powder, I had no idea there was another way. Now when you say hell on the bar and chain do you mean they need to get replaced sooner or just more frequent maintenance filling down the bar bur and sharpening the chain.


This tells me your rakers are too high.
By wear on the B&C, yes they will need to be replaced sooner and the bar needs to be dressed slightly more often but I can't tell you how much sooner because there are so many other factors at play.



> Now I'm running a stihl 461 with a 32nh bar in hard wood. With out straining the power head what would you recommend setting my rakers and gullet at for a regular chain as the box shown above and also for a skip chain that is one I picked up that the stihl dealer made? the nice thing with this new file system I can set it to the top of the raker then adjust it, every click is .010,,it should really help me true out all my chains.


I don't like telling CSMers what to set their rakers at because this does not encourage them to work it out for themselves, Once you know how to work it out for a particular setup then you can do it for any setup, eg longer bar wider wood different wood types.

I written this a few times but here is again
Start by getting all the cutters about the same length.
Then set the" raker depth" to "gullet width" ratio on all cutters to a 10:1 ratio (that's a 6º raker angle) by measuring the gullet width and then dividing that by ten and filing down the raker to that depth
eg if the gullet is 0.35" then the raker depth needs to be 0.035"
You can measure the depth using feeler gauges - place a straight edge or ruler across two consecutive cutters and slip the feeler gauges between the ruler and raker top.
I measure the raker angle direct like this


Once you have done all the rakers, try cutting, freehand cutting is fine as long as its down the grain like milling, its the same type of wood and the the width of the cut is about the same as the widest you are going to mill..
Then drop the rakers further by say 3 swipes each, try cutting again.
Repeat the previous step until the chain starts to be grabby, if you went too far, take a few swipes off each cutter, and repeat that until the grabbiness is reduced
Then measure the raker depth and that is the optimum raker depth for that combo of milling factors (wood saw, bar etc)
Of course every time you file the cutters the gullet gets wider so you have to drop the rakers even more then next time.

For folks that think this is uber anal, I don't measure the raker deaths every time I touch up the rakers. In the field while milling I'm pretty freehand, I lightly touch up the cutters (2-3 swipes) after EVERY tank of mix and swipe the rakers 2-3 times after every 3-4 tanks.
That way the cutters are never blunt and the rakers are always close to optimised. The only time I specifically remeasure the raker depths are when I take the saw home at the end of the day and clean and service the saw, pull of the B&C, clean the bar groove etc. Then I remeasure and set the rakers again. It depends how much milling I do. If its only a couple of logs and the saw is cutting well I leave it for next time.



> I watched a video with a guy using skip chain and he filed every other two cutters narrow to make ripping chain would that be better? Do you use skip chain or reg full? I found the skip chain to be nicer in someways but painfully slow, but perhaps if I lowered my rakers enough it would be tolerable.


I milled about 30 logs with skip chain but then switched to full comp chain for all my mills/bars form 20 up to 60". I've been filing by hand for 55 years so I am fairly quick at doing it. My dad taught me his way when I was nine but about 12 years ago I discovered I could improve it so I came up with my own slightly different way based around what chainsaw racers do.



> perhaps if my rakers are too low for milling that’s why I can’t get the saw to lead the cut with the nose, I just asked rarefish383 this on another thread also But if my bar is bad can it hurt my chain so if I put that chain into a new bar it’ll then hurt the new bar?


I think the wear on your bar can be dressed out it's better if the bar is smooth and dressed otherwise it will initiate early wear on the chain.


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## buzz sawyer (Feb 8, 2020)

Lots of good info here. Here's my 2 cents worth.

I'm sure I haven't milled as much as the others on this thread but my first concern on this was the skip-tooth chain. I've never milled with it but do know I get smoother cuts on my miter saw with an 80 tooth vs a 40 tooth blade. 
The damage I see on the bar tells me you are putting way too much pressure or need a lot more oil. File off the burr and make sure the top of the rails are square to the side of the bar. I milled several dead standing Ash logs 24" - 27" and saw no sign of the damage seen on your bar. I was using my SP125c / 36" bar / no aux. oiler.
When cutting with the PH leading the bar nose, you are cutting against the grain, which could be why it digs in more. 
Cutting with the bar nose leading the PH should give a smoother cut. Think of dragging a box down a set of stairs vs dragging it up.


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## Mad Professor (Feb 8, 2020)

I couldn't help it......


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 9, 2020)

Sweet BobL thanks for more great info. 

The two links about the aux oiler come up as an error.

I like the idea of having a log on end for testing and adjusting, I hoping the new jig I got will help me dial it in consistently. Also when you say dress the bar do you mean de burr it but then also poor oil in the groove? or oil the bar? 

Buzz Sawyer thanks for sharing also.. What your saying about your miter saw totally makes sense to me the whole reason I started with the skip chain was to be able to run a bigger bar on sort of a small saw. Also I think after all of Bob's info on my chain I think the reason my saw dosnt want to run nose first is due to the rakers being to short and with rarefish advising me on using a guide board with all my cuts is going to help a lot. Unfortunately it's going to be a few weeks at best before I have a chance to mill again and report back, gives me plenty of time to clean up my chains.

Thanks again to everyone for your time and advise,,,,, and Mad Professor thank you that was awesome!!!!


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## Mad Professor (Feb 9, 2020)

I've been using a logosol M5 mill since 1998 w/066 stihl. Never had an issue with grooves, sometimes got chatters getting started in the cut.

I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.

The Logosol mill runs the bar at 90 degrees to the log/cant, so I don't think you need to lead a bar into the cut to get a smooth one. That may help feeding with alaskan/granberg type setups though.

Concerning the MS461, I'm not sure if it like the 046 and 066 where you can upgrade the oiler? In those you did not need the whole oiler just two parts for upgrade.

IMHO it is not so much oil, as heat that makes milling hard on bars/chain. Granted I'm not using real long bars. A water drip will cool things off.

Just my two cents.


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## rarefish383 (Feb 9, 2020)

Has anyone tried one of these? It's very similar to the chain oiler on my old Vermeer stump grinder.
https://www.ebay.com/i/283660142684...VlToAiIMHmU2KkAzsCDrEvWbno6nAe9BoCyVIQAvD_BwE


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## andy at clover (Feb 9, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> I've been using a logosol M5 mill since 1998 w/066 stihl. Never had an issue with grooves, sometimes got chatters getting started in the cut.
> 
> I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.
> 
> ...


Interesting points Mad Prof. ....The Logosol is something I looked at early on. Ended up going with Alaskan style for portability into the woods.
Out of curiosity, what is the typical width you mill... and widest ?
The "Nose forward" technique has made a big difference in the quality of cut surface for me.
I'm milling pretty wide though... Minimum 22"-26" often 30"ish.

Good call on the oiler.
There is a H/O oiler option for the 461.... Highly recommended for the OP to instal it. 
From what I understand, Any of the Stihl models in the ms4xx or ms6xx can be upgraded to the higher capacity oiler.


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## Mad Professor (Feb 9, 2020)

andy at clover said:


> Interesting points Mad Prof. ....The Logosol is something I looked at early on. Ended up going with Alaskan style for portability into the woods.
> Out of curiosity, what is the typical width you mill... and widest ?
> The "Nose forward" technique has made a big difference in the quality of cut surface for me.
> I'm milling pretty wide though... Minimum 22"-26" often 30"ish.
> ...




My mill will do ~ 15' 6" lengths. Weight is the other issue, they say if I remember 1500 lbs? I know I've went over that.

Given those parameters. Most logs that will fit on the mill can take two slices off the log, 1st then turn 90 degrees and then another. A 24" bar will do the rest without turns unless you want to for grade/reasons. If you want 30" wide natural edges you need a long bar and a short log so not to exceed the weight max out.

Really big stuff you mount the mill on the log, inverted. Then no restrictions, use a longer bar have at it. 

The whole mill is ~ 150 Llbs. One hardy person can carry it into the woods....


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 9, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> I've only been running 3/8 picco chain, 63PMX by stihl. I've only hand filed it, and have used chains until teeth broke off (tossed them then) and still had smooth cuts. See some old threads by Mtgunn on using 3/8 picco chain.



I'm a little curious about the picco chain, the stihl dealer out here dosn't have any knowledge about milling and no other customers that do it but said he asked his rep for me and he recommended the 3/8 picco. I'm assuming it would be easier on the saw but was wondering how the cut times might change if at all. All I would have to do is change the sproket over right? and does it take a special 3/8 file? I was having trouble finding any threads from Mtgunn but will keep looking i'm still getting used to this site.



Mad Professor said:


> Concerning the MS461, I'm not sure if it like the 046 and 066 where you can upgrade the oiler? In those you did not need the whole oiler just two parts for upgrade.



As for the oiler parts, does it just increase the amount it holds or further increase the flow. I always seam to have close to half a tank of oil left after the gas is gone and my adjustment is set to high with no clogs. It was like that out of the box. I actual went back to the dealer to ask about it thinking something was wrong and he told me thats how they make them now.



andy at clover said:


> here is a H/O oiler option for the 461.... Highly recommended for the OP to instal it.
> From what I understand, Any of the Stihl models in the ms4xx or ms6xx can be upgraded to the higher capacity oiler.



Sorry to have to ask Andy but what does H/O and OP stand for?

All this talk of oilers had gotten me thinking. I used to mill much smoother boards when I started last year and one thing that I did change and over look was my bar oil. Tractor supply had some on sale and I picked up some winter weight oil thinking its cold out and its thinner so maybe it would go through more oil. Which didn't happen looking back,,could a lot of my dry chain and bar wear be that the lighter oil just isn't tacky enough and isn't staying on the chain with the heat generated during milling? 

Having said all that has there ever been a discussion on here about using filtered motor or hydro oil or perhaps frier oil in your aux oiler. I would worry about small metal burs in the motor oil getting between the chain and bar if not filtered well and the frier oil might just smell bad or stain the wood.


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## BobL (Feb 10, 2020)

Th aux oiler delivery support on th BIL mill goes right through the bar clamp - I used to have holes through my bars (see old oiler mount in pic below) but I replaced it with a drip oiler (New Oiler) on all my mills.




Here's one I made for a mates 3120.


Thats a black poly irrigation fitting and a piece of threaded rod through the piece of steel strap. This enables the height to be adjusted so the gap is ~1/16" so the oil does not drop but wicks out direct onto the bar/chain.


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## BobL (Feb 10, 2020)

chainsaw papa said:


> I'm a little curious about the picco chain, the stihl dealer out here dosn't have any knowledge about milling and no other customers that do it but said he asked his rep for me and he recommended the 3/8 picco. I'm assuming it would be easier on the saw but was wondering how the cut times might change if at all. All I would have to do is change the sproket over right? and does it take a special 3/8 file?


It's called 3/8 chain but it is definitely NOT 3/8 and a special sprocket is most definitely required and it is not readily available.
The standard 3/8 pitch noses also have a problem with this chain so it has to be kept very tight to prevent it riding off the nose until the chain stretches enough to sit on without riding off.
My understanding in that Logosols come with these drive sprockets and will only supply them to Logosol owners.
I made my own drive sprockets by turning down 404 sprockets in a metalwork lathe - this requires tungsten carbide cutters, los of patience and be prepared to break some of the cutters while doing it.



> As for the oiler parts, does it just increase the amount it holds or further increase the flow. I always seam to have close to half a tank of oil left after the gas is gone and my adjustment is set to high with no clogs. It was like that out of the box. I actual went back to the dealer to ask about it thinking something was wrong and he told me thats how they make them now.


On the BIL mill the flow of my oil is adjustable from the milling position via a bicycle gear change lever and cable that has 7 click positions and this opens and closes a valve on the oiler.



> this talk of oilers had gotten me thinking. I used to mill much smoother boards when I started last year and one thing that I did change and over look was my bar oil. Tractor supply had some on sale and I picked up some winter weight oil thinking its cold out and its thinner so maybe it would go through more oil. Which didn't happen looking back,,could a lot of my dry chain and bar wear be that the lighter oil just isn't tacky enough and isn't staying on the chain with the heat generated during milling?


Sufficient B&C oiling is important in keeping the bar cool specially in dry wood. In some of the stuff I mill more resin from the wood is extracted by hotter chain and this clings to the chain like glue making it even hotter due to the increased friction. To counteract this, when the cut is finished I let the oiler run with the chain running out of the wood at its slowest seep so it doesn't fling off any oil - once the chain is glistening with oil I stop, refuel and do my chain touch. By the start of the next cut any remaining hard oiled resin has softened and just peels off in the first inch or so of the new cut.



> Having said all that has there ever been a discussion on here about using filtered motor or hydro oil or perhaps frier oil in your aux oiler. I would worry about small metal burs in the motor oil getting between the chain and bar if not filtered well and the frier oil might just smell bad or stain the wood.


 I use filtered motor oil - its clear/transparent as new oil - with a viscosity additive. The place I buy it from adds the viscosity agent to my specification. I use the same oil in the aux oiler.


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## Mad Professor (Feb 10, 2020)

6Kproducts (formerly danzco) has 3/8 picco rims for Oregon large 7 spline. Before they made these available I had them make a batch up for me (2009?) I have a lifetime supply.

https://www.6kproducts.com/sprocket-375_p_pitch.html

Don't try running 3/8 picco chain on a 3/8 sprocket tip bar, *it WILL muck things up*. Stihl made 3003 mount bars in 3/8 picco but they are hard to find. GB makes bars with this configuration. You need a 3/8 picco rim sprocket too

I don't see these GB bars listed but I've bought them through Left Coast Supplies before the went out of business . I'd have to check a bar to see if there is part #.

Logosol has a monopoly on stihl 63PMX chain in the USA and they price it like it is made of gold. Woodland 3/8 picco milling chain is an alternative but not the quality of the stihl chain. You can also regrind the stihl 63PM chain but then the cutter will be shorter to start with.

As mentioned heat is the problem with bars/chains when milling. A simple water drip goes a long way to keep things cool and also helps prevent buildup of crud.

Concerning the Stihl HO (high output) oilers, they just have a different piston and control screw that allows more flow, you don't need to buy the whole pump. The 046/460 and 066/660 stihls had these. I'm not sure if the 461 does? Check an IPL of the oiler.

The other member that did a lot of work milling with 3/8 picco/lo pro was mtngun. A ton of reading here

https://www.arboristsite.com/community/search/60971677/?q=3/8&o=relevance&c[user][0]=24362


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## Mad Professor (Feb 10, 2020)

BobL

I really like the idea of using the bicycle gear shifter to control flow setting on your oiler!

Is there pics here of the rest of your system? Great stuff there!


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## BobL (Feb 10, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> BobL
> I really like the idea of using the bicycle gear shifter to control flow setting on your oiler!
> Is there pics here of the rest of your system? Great stuff there!



Oil lever



Tank flow control


Oil lever location.



I tried water cooling in place of aux oiling - not good in my hardwoods, after about 3 weeks I noticed more wear and tear as the water washed too much of the oil away.
Kept things nice and clean through.

MtnGUN Made his Lopro sprockets out of 404 as well, that's where I got the idea for mine.


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## Mad Professor (Feb 10, 2020)

BobL said:


> Oil lever
> View attachment 796858
> 
> 
> ...



The Danzco picco sprockets are really high quality pin drive type. They started out in making saw sprockets for race saws.

Maybe the aux oiler with just a bit of water drip too might be something to try?

Have you used any of the GB 3/8 picco bars?


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## andy at clover (Feb 10, 2020)

Sorry Pappa...

*H/O* in this case is “high output”.
*OP* is Originating Poster or original post ... Commonly used in Forum Jargon. 

If all else fails ...google tells all


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 10, 2020)

Ha ha thanks Andy, I had a few guesses as to what it meant, all of which wrong. I did try google but the best I got was h/o -home owner, and
OP -operating professional


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## Mad Professor (Feb 10, 2020)

chainsaw papa said:


> Ha ha thanks Andy, I had a few guesses as to what it meant, all of which wrong. I did try google but the best I got was h/o -home owner, and
> OP -operating professional



Where in NE are you? I venture between VT and western MA.


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## BobL (Feb 10, 2020)

Mad Professor said:


> The Danzco picco sprockets are really high quality pin drive type. They started out in making saw sprockets for race saws.


I know the high quality as I have several of their 9 and 10 pin race pin sprockets. Never used them.



> Maybe the aux oiler with just a bit of water drip too might be something to try?


I tried water drip and even a hose connected up to the nose with one of those click fittings. I didn't do it because of heat - I was just being a tight ass to see if I could reduce the expenses of running an aux oiler. 



> Have you used any of the GB 3/8 picco bars?


No - I tried to get one back in 2010 but my local GB supplier said he couldn't get anything like that - maybe they came in later?


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## Mad Professor (Feb 10, 2020)

BobL said:


> I know the high quality as I have several of their 9 and 10 pin race pin sprockets. Never used them.
> 
> 
> I tried water drip and even a hose connected up to the nose with one of those click fittings. I didn't do it because of heat - I was just being a tight ass to see if I could reduce the expenses of running an aux oiler.
> ...




A great company that went out of business, Left Coast Supplies, had the GB 3/8 picco bars in all sorts of lengths (16-40+"). Prices were super cheap too. I picked up some 25" bars for ~ $22 USD each. They also had 25" 63PMX milling chain loops for ~$20.

I wish I had stocked up more heavily.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 11, 2020)

BobL said:


> On the BIL mill the flow of my oil is adjustable from the milling position via a bicycle gear change lever and cable that has 7 click positions and this opens and closes a valve on the oiler.


Hey BobL thanks for the pictures that's a real sweet looking set up, very convenient having the gear lever by the milling handle.



BobL said:


> Thats a black poly irrigation fitting and a piece of threaded rod through the piece of steel strap. This enables the height to be adjusted so the gap is ~1/16" so the oil does not drop but wicks out direct onto the bar/chain.



It was great seeing how you attched that to the bar clamp. I had an extra air tool fitting and thought it would also work great and then thought about using the articulating style as seen on the gun here. My thoughts were it would just hang straight down if the vibration effected it otherwise I would be really able to dial in the wick location and if it stays in place angle it with the chain direction to maybe pull more oil into the chain. I just have to add a threaded piece to put the nuts on and control the height as shown in the one you made your friend.



BobL said:


> Sufficient B&C oiling is important in keeping the bar cool specially in dry wood. In some of the stuff I mill more resin from the wood is extracted by hotter chain and this clings to the chain like glue making it even hotter due to the increased friction. To counteract this, when the cut is finished I let the oiler run with the chain running out of the wood at its slowest seep so it doesn't fling off any oil - once the chain is glistening with oil I stop, refuel and do my chain touch. By the start of the next cut any remaining hard oiled resin has softened and just peels off in the first inch or so of the new cut.


Some more great advice, I have noticed some build up on my chains as well even tho the wood has been old. I was tending to shut my drip off as I got to the end of the cut to drain the line and not make a mess but I understand now how it would be beneficial to leave on a bit . 



Mad Professor said:


> Where in NE are you? I venture between VT and western MA.



I'm in south eastern CT, Takes two hours to get to Mt. Monadnock, or Mt Greylock. I used to get out your way alot more for hiking and camping but were over run with babies right now. Crawford notch campground was four hours away and Acadia was about eight with gas stops and lunch. How about your self?


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## ML12 (Feb 12, 2020)

I seem to get a lot of grooving with skip chain, and not much at all with full comp. Just my observation. The skip is also Oregon ripping chain (semi chisel) while the full comp is stihl RS3 or whatever the full chisel option is.

We only got skip because we thought there would be an issue with the 60" bar, but there isn't so next loop will be full comp.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 14, 2020)

Thanks ML12 Thats the same reason I started with the skip chain thinking the 461 would be a little under powered. It really did just fine and reduced my cut time in half. I was going to get a skip chain made up for the 36 inch bar tho to not stress the power head out too much unless anyone else has experience with that saw with a 36 inch in hard wood. Thanks again


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 22, 2020)

Hello again,
Bob L I was wondering if you could take a glance at my chain again for me I filed all my teeth to 30 degrees on the grandberg jig but the hook looks alittle aggressive compared to the stock teeth. I also picked up that angle finder from your video and tried setting them all as close to six degrees as I could get it. I was wondering how I did with it as It took some getting use to. I love the accuracy I'll eventually get with using it. I did have a couple that went closer to six and a half seven and I was wondering is that alright or should take a couple swipes off the teeth to bring it back down. I also dressed the bar out and am hoping this all improves my problem, I still have a couple weeks before I can get back out there tho.Thanks again for all your help.


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## buzz sawyer (Feb 23, 2020)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## andy at clover (Feb 23, 2020)

Papa

Kudos for putting in the effort!
The hooks are a bit sharp but you should not change them before running the chain.
The chain should cut nicely but dull a bit more quickly.


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## chainsaw papa (Feb 24, 2020)

Thanks Andy I'm all about putting in the work and hope results continue to follow. I also reworked my aux oiler and fabed a bracket up for a more precise application which seams to apply it much better. 

So what was I doing wrong to create such an aggressive hook? Was I filling in to deeply, or did I set the file up a tad too low? I figured I would start out at the stihl standard 30 degrees and go down by five degrees over time and see how the saw responds.


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## djones (Mar 4, 2020)

I too was wash boarding quite a few boards in the beginning of my milling exercise until I realized that I was using a .50 ga. chain on a .58 ga. bar. Put the right chain on the bar and wash boarding disappeared. Keeping the chain snug made the boards almost look like they were planed. Live and learn.


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