# Give It To Me Straight....



## haas (Sep 19, 2009)

I have been reading posts on this site for a few weeks now and I have yet to find the info that I need. I figured it best to join and open my own thread. After reading the serious reaming that you guys do to newbies I wanted a chance to have the crap handed to me, personally!

I want to preface this my saying I am not a professional arborist nor do I claim to be one. I have an extensive experience with rock climbing and knots as well as felling small trees with a chainsaw...And I fully understand this experience does not make me an arborist!

I recently purchased a home on one acre filled with ponderosa pines. The property was a foreclosure and has been neglected for 5-6 years now. There is quite a bit of heavy snow damage and dead limbs that desperately need to be pruned.

I do not want to get into topping large branches, and I don't want to start my own tree trimming small business. I just want to make my ritzy neighbors (and myself, I just don't complain about it) happy by trimming my pines. I bought the trimming saw on a schtick, but that only goes up 15ft and doesn't work well, fully extended, with anything over 2" in diameter.

Can I get to this stuff, 10-30ft off the ground, with a sitting harness, flipline, and a good pair of boots? (I know I shouldn't use gaffs on trees I want to keep). I was watching a neighbor's professional tree trimmer do this yesterday and this was the only safety equipment he was using. Of course, I understand he could have been a complete idiot not using any safety lines. He was, however, rarely over 20ft. and he was always standing on a good solid branch.

I've tried using gaffs on a telephone pole and know its pretty hard coming down, so I could easily hook up a climbing rope and repel down if needed.

Climbing is dangerous...Chainsaws are dangerous....put them together and you are crazy! I understand the risks, and much of the time I would only need a pruning saw.

Harness and flipline just seem safer than standing on a 25ft. ladder with a crappy pruning blade on a 15ft. stick!!!! What are your thoughts?


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## ropensaddle (Sep 19, 2009)

haas said:


> I have been reading posts on this site for a few weeks now and I have yet to find the info that I need. I figured it best to join and open my own thread. After reading the serious reaming that you guys do to newbies I wanted a chance to have the crap handed to me, personally!
> 
> I want to preface this my saying I am not a professional arborist nor do I claim to be one. I have an extensive experience with rock climbing and knots as well as felling small trees with a chainsaw...And I fully understand this experience does not make me an arborist!
> 
> ...



Hire a climber to help you we need the business and you your health! If you just goota try it still hire the climber to help you learn the ropes. Many of us including me are suffering in this economy and need to work so don't deprive us and yourself the benefits of the acquaintance.


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## lego1970 (Sep 19, 2009)

If you've done a lot of rock climbing in Colorado, then you already have the gear to do the job. When I first starting out doing tree work, I used a light weight harness, static 7/16 line, ATC, shunt and other simple gear that I had from repelling with some friends off of buildings when we lived in a downtown 10 story apartment building. Make yourself a lanyard for yourself, make a strap for the chainsaw so you can attach it to one of your gear loops, and either use a shunt or wrap a pursik on your line so you can position yourself along your climbing line. Try to tie in as high as safely possible then come down and cut the branches you want to and you slowly work back up. That way the lower branches will fall out of your way as your go back up and clean up the tree. Always use two tie in points when useing the chainsaw, and know where your cutting and where the chainsaw will go after you follow thru the cut. Tie in around the main trunk of the tree and not just a branch. Make sure you have good footing and are in a stable position when cutting branches. You might want to climb the trees without a chainsaw or just a handsaw at first until you get the feel of climbing with your particuliar set up. Then when you feel comfortable with however you work your gear, then bring a chainsaw up. If you've done a lot of rock climbing then you should know how to rig your gear up, but learning how to make cuts that don't bind your saw, rip the limbs, or cause the limbs to hurt you takes time and clear thinking. Take your time, think it out clearly and always know where that saw is gonna end up. As I said before try climbing without chainsaw to get used to your gear, the tree, and try just trimming with a handsaw at first. I can hack thru some pretty good size limbs with just a 15" Corona handsaw that they sell at Home Depot for like $25 bucks. Good luck and as mentioned above if you have the money, hire a local tree guy and see if he will let you climb with him.


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## matt9923 (Sep 19, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> Hire a climber to help you we need the business and you your health! If you just goota try it still hire the climber to help you learn the ropes. Many of us including me are suffering in this economy and need to work so don't deprive us and yourself the benefits of the acquaintance.



Would you go out and teach a guy to climb if he paid you? Is int that you :censored: if he dies.


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## Apocalypsse (Sep 19, 2009)

Be smart, hire a *professional*.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Sep 19, 2009)

BUY _*The Tree Climber's Companion *_written by certified arborist Jeff Jepson. Buy it now, read it all then climb LOW & SLOW. *lego1970's *right you've got the gear and I suspect you've got the skills. Now, you need to figure out how it all applies to trees instead of rocks - the difference can kill you. 

Another option: Many professional arborist teach classes. "Google" and take one of those. Jepson's book will probably be required reading. So, but it now anyway.

BE SAFE!!!


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## treeseer (Sep 19, 2009)

With a 32' ladder and a 7-14' polesaw you can clear deadwood from pines up to 50'. this is good for the trees, as dead stubs are infection courts for fusiform rust, the most common pine disease here. :angry2:

i like climbing with ropes and all, but using a ladder is easier and faster and plenty safe if you know how to secure the ladder and yourself. An arborist who refuses to use a ladder is like a painter that refuses to use a roller. :help:


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## ropensaddle (Sep 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> With a 32' ladder and a 7-14' polesaw you can clear deadwood from pines up to 50'. this is good for the trees, as dead stubs are infection courts for fusiform rust, the most common pine disease here. :angry2:
> 
> i like climbing with ropes and all, but using a ladder is easier and faster and plenty safe if you know how to secure the ladder and yourself. An arborist who refuses to use a ladder is like a painter that refuses to use a roller. :help:



I have no problem with ladders and have even used my climbing stand on some pines to block and throw the chunks. It is safe as any method imo. I prefer the conservation of energy reserves for both myself and the tree lol. 







Now about teaching; I said nothing of teaching. I said helping and I believe as long as you tell the man he is flirting with disaster and that the basics you have shown him are not enough to keep him safe. Then recommend him getting more formal material such as anzi a 300
and the climbers companion or practical rigging and stress that even if he knows these books front to back it may still not prevent him from injury, then how can it be your fault he kills himself?


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## arborist (Sep 19, 2009)

Apocalypsse said:


> Be smart, hire a *professional*.



Agreed.


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## Fireaxman (Sep 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> With a 32' ladder and a 7-14' polesaw you can clear deadwood from pines up to 50'. this is good for the trees, as dead stubs are infection courts for fusiform rust, the most common pine disease here. :angry2:
> 
> i like climbing with ropes and all, but using a ladder is easier and faster and plenty safe if you know how to secure the ladder and yourself. An arborist who refuses to use a ladder is like a painter that refuses to use a roller. :help:



Good advice, but let me emphasize the caveat - "... if you know how to secure the ladder and yourself." I've said this before, a cut limb hunts ladders like a Texas tornado hunts trailer parks. How do I know? Wish I had a picture of my ladder to show you.

But, if you enjoyed rock climbing, you might enjoy tree climbing with ropes. Get Jepsons book, check out some recreational tree climbing web sites and videos, see if you might be interested. Take your time, do your homework, get with somebody to "show you the ropes", and learn a new hobby. Then, get yourself a Silky Zubat and, since you are up there anyway, do a little dead wooding. Start low, slow, and small, and work your way up. You might like it.


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## John464 (Sep 19, 2009)

treeseer said:


> With a 32' ladder and a 7-14' polesaw you can clear deadwood from pines up to 50'. this is good for the trees, as dead stubs are infection courts for fusiform rust, the most common pine disease here. :angry2:
> 
> i like climbing with ropes and all, but using a ladder is easier and faster and plenty safe if you know how to secure the ladder and yourself. An arborist who refuses to use a ladder is like a painter that refuses to use a roller. :help:



What a freakin joke. To prune a tree with a ladder is dangerous and slower. To safely lower limbs or bomb them you should not have the ladder in the tree. For advancement into the tree sure, but not when cutting, especially if the man is still attached to the ladder.

To safely prune a tree, learn to climb trees with the proper gear/PPE without cutting for some time, then attempt to prune with a saw after you feel you are ready. Once that branch releases there can be a second chance if you are quick to dodge when attached to your climbing line. If on a ladder brace yourself for the beating, unless you are like Guy pruning at most 1/2" diameter branches with his Felco, those just tickle him silly.

First he opposes the use of a chainsaw now climbing gear. Whats next Guy? Trade the truck in for a horse and buggy?


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## BC WetCoast (Sep 20, 2009)

The Climbers Companion can be downloaded as a bit torrent pdf file. Do a google search.


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## haas (Sep 20, 2009)

Fireaxman said:


> Then, get yourself a Silky Zubat and, since you are up there anyway, do a little dead wooding. Start low, slow, and small, and work your way up. You might like it.



Totally thought you were yankin my chain with the "silky zubat" thing! Sounds like some sort of an alien laser out of a "B"-rated-80's-horror flick....then I googled and found it is a fancy pruning saw!!!

Thanks for the advice fellas! I wouldn't advise some schmuck to buy a used harness and rope off craigslist and go out to tackle devil's tower on his first climb either (http://www.nationalparklover.com/devilstower.htm). I enjoy climbing and repelling off rocks, so I think the tree thing could be a lot of fun if I take it slow....baby steps...

Treeseer: I've had my fun on ladders.....it only takes one time of balancing on one foot, on the top rung of a maxed out 25 ft. ladder, with a 15 ft. pruning saw in your arms to realize there has to be a safer way around this!

Another question. Can you climb a pine trunk in plain boots with a harness and a flipline (sans gaffs)? Or would I need to use the ladder to get to the bottom branch and scramble up that way?


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## ropensaddle (Sep 20, 2009)

John464 said:


> What a freakin joke. To prune a tree with a ladder is dangerous and slower. To safely lower limbs or bomb them you should not have the ladder in the tree. For advancement into the tree sure, but not when cutting, especially if the man is still attached to the ladder.
> 
> To safely prune a tree, learn to climb trees with the proper gear/PPE without cutting for some time, then attempt to prune with a saw after you feel you are ready. Once that branch releases there can be a second chance if you are quick to dodge when attached to your climbing line. If on a ladder brace yourself for the beating, unless you are like Guy pruning at most 1/2" diameter branches with his Felco, those just tickle him silly.
> 
> First he opposes the use of a chainsaw now climbing gear. Whats next Guy? Trade the truck in for a horse and buggy?



I think your not seeing things clear a ladder can be as safe as any form of climbing as long as your tied in. I use mine many times and it can speed the production rather than impede it. Attached to the ladder why would I attach to a ladder when there is a tree it is resting on


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## GlenWimpy (Sep 20, 2009)

haas said:


> I have been reading posts on this site for a few weeks now and I have yet to find the info that I need. I figured it best to join and open my own thread. After reading the serious reaming that you guys do to newbies I wanted a chance to have the crap handed to me, personally!
> 
> I want to preface this my saying I am not a professional arborist nor do I claim to be one. I have an extensive experience with rock climbing and knots as well as felling small trees with a chainsaw...And I fully understand this experience does not make me an arborist!
> 
> ...


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## tree MDS (Sep 20, 2009)

I would rent one of those man-lift thingys - unless you just want to play around and try the climbing thing out. Our hardware store has one in thier rental dept. for like 275 a day, its got a 47' working hight. I would think if you study proper pruning cuts and buy some of the gear mentioned you would make pretty good time - even if you dont finish it all in a day, just rent it again sometime.


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## outofmytree (Sep 20, 2009)

Nice work Haas. You got em flaming each other instead of you!

IMO if you are going to climb then go for it. Just leave the chainsaw on the ground. A hand saw can be used to remove branches as wide as 1/3 the blade length if you are patient. As to the climbing, by all means use a ladder to access a tree but please don't cut from one. I suggest before you climb that you become proficient at setting a TIP (tie in point) using a throwline and bag. As others suggested, Jeff Jepsons excellant Tree Climbers Companion is a great source of information including using a throwline. If the trees are too dense to hit the right spot first off then get into the lower canopy then climb and set your TIP. Once you feel confident about setting that TIP then take a handsaw up with you and prune the dead branches one at a time. 

There is no substitute for good hands on training as you would know from your own climbing experience. I would also suggest you take a tree pruning course to ensure you dont do more harm than good up there.

How about some photographs?

Oh and welcome aboard.


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## Adkpk (Sep 20, 2009)

Post some pics. 


If a branch takes out your ladder and one will how do you get down? If your not comfortable standing in a tree, stand on a ladder but have a way to lower yourself when a branch takes out the ladder and save a few bucks to replace after it gets mashed. 

Another particular not mentioned much on these threads is getting hit with the branch you just cut. I have so much to say about it I think I will start a thread about it. Not right away though I got to get out in the yard and get some work done. 

Pines have weaker branches than most trees make sure your tie in point is a strong enough branch for your weight.


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## outofmytree (Sep 20, 2009)

Adkpk said:


> *Pines have weaker branches than most trees make sure your tie in point is a strong enough branch for your weight*.



A very good point here. Your system is only as strong as the weakest link. When attached to pines this is how I tie myself in.







The black thing with rings on the end is a cambium saver. Yet another item you will find in the tree climbers companion. You will save the tree and your rope a lot of pain by using one of these every climb.


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## ozzy42 (Sep 20, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I think your not seeing things clear a ladder can be as safe as any form of climbing as long as your tied in. I use mine many times and it can speed the production rather than impede it. Attached to the ladder why would I attach to a ladder when there is a tree it is resting on



:agree2:
I have used ladders forever. They are a must have tool for palm trimming. Have to use them correctly.
ladders don't usually fall or upset while climbing them,but while working.
I use them to run up in the canopy or out on a long lower limb,but with climbing rope,saddle,and flipline in tow.
Do it right ,very helpfull tool.
Trying to balance yourself,and hold on to ladder with one hand,and cutting with the other hand is a big NO NO


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## haas (Sep 21, 2009)

GlenWimpy said:


> Well , if obama the messiah , passes his health care , it will probably take the ambulane a few days to come and get you , another long wait at the ER , because it will be full of MEXICANS that are pregant , and MEXICAN men with stab wounds , so , probably a 3 day wait , then 6 months to see a dr later



:yourock:Luckily, I have a good arrangement with a local doctor...He set and casted my ankle for free when I broke it last year in a skiing accident. One of the many perks of my profession....

TREE MDS: Not a bad idea, but those man-lift-thingys are way to expensive. I already have most of the gear, so why not learn to climb trees safely? For less than $275 I can purchase all the gear I need to safely climb trees any day of the year. The snow around here is constantly taking branches out and $275 a day would add up quite fast. Oh, and I forgot to mention that I live on the side of a mountain....not too steep, but enough to nix the man-lift-thingy idea.

OUTOFMYTREE: thanks for the diagram, very helpful! A cambium saver is already on the list of things to purchase. Would you recommend one of those leather tubes or a strap with the steel o-rings? Can you get the strap version down from the ground? I'll try and get some tree pics up soon. Can I get into the lower canopy with just a flipline and hiking boots? (i'd be roped in) just curious if you can get enough friction with regular boots and no spikes?!?!

EVERYONE ELSE: no more ladder idea please! They are my arch nemisis! They are evil! And if I have to rope into the tree to make climbing a ladder safe, why not just climb the dumb tree!!!!


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## outofmytree (Sep 21, 2009)

haas said:


> Would you recommend one of those leather tubes or a strap with the steel o-rings? Can you get the strap version down from the ground? I'll try and get some tree pics up soon. Can I get into the lower canopy with just a flipline and hiking boots? (i'd be roped in) just curious if you can get enough friction with regular boots and no spikes?!?!



The tube is a rope guide, the strap-and-rings is a cambium saver. The tree climbers companion will show you both "soft" and "hard" retrieval methods. 

To ascend you will need the life line inserted first then climb the rope not the tree. Even if you could manage to climb with flipline and boots only the friction you generate would do serious bark damage where the purpose is to do little or no damage at all.


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## treeseer (Sep 21, 2009)

haas said:


> EVERYONE ELSE: no more ladder idea please! They are my arch nemisis! They are evil! And if I have to rope into the tree to make climbing a ladder safe, why not just climb the dumb tree!!!!


Because climbing a ladder is more efficient, that's why. But you, and many tree climbers, are more into the climbing experience than efficiency. And that is ok too. 

O and btw you can dispell the Evil by rubbing the ladder with garlic and goat's blood and shaking some chicken bones over it before you climb it. 

And whatever you do, don't walk under it!


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## haas (Sep 21, 2009)

treeseer said:


> And whatever you do, don't walk under it!


:bang:.....too late.....:bang:


They say you learn something new every day...I must be pushing my luck because today I have learned several things:
1. No matter how old you are, NEVER tell your mother you want to climb 50 feet up in a tree.
2. Friction AND ladders are evil. (think I could rub some garlic on the rope instead of using a cambium saver?)
3. Efficiency is overrated. Sometimes its the journey thats fun, not the end result!

Haha...Excellent! 

That stinkin tree climbers companion book needs to hurry up and get here. It's worse than waiting a year to see the next season of "Lost."


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## outofmytree (Sep 22, 2009)

treeseer said:


> Because climbing a ladder is more efficient, that's why.



Pay no attention to Guy he is getting on a bit and sometimes confuses efficiency with good. Climbing = good. Ladder = evil. Its quite simple really....:jester:


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## lego1970 (Sep 22, 2009)

Since we are on the subject of ladders. I have a love/hate relationship with them. I never trust them, especially when going on a second story roof top. They are pain to drag out and I've yet to find a groundsman that will volunteerly drag one out for me without asking, likewise when I'm the groundsman, I never haul it out until somebody ask for it. However, they speed climbing up on a lot of occasions and are a must have for working around Honey Locust.


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## John464 (Sep 22, 2009)

ropensaddle said:


> I think your not seeing things clear a ladder can be as safe as any form of climbing as long as your tied in. I use mine many times and it can speed the production rather than impede it. Attached to the ladder why would I attach to a ladder when there is a tree it is resting on




im seing it perfectly clear. working on a ladder at 30ft high, even with it tied to a tree is down right dangerous. the original poster was deciding between "_Harness and flipline just seem safer than *OR* standing on a 25ft. ladder with a crappy pruning blade on a 15ft. stick!!!! _"

I would like to see any arborist who can show pics of them at 30ft in the air, pruning a tree, with a ladder, to prove otherwise. 

Ladders are ok for advancement into the tree, it is not a tool to use in the tree while cutting in the tree. it limits you to proper cutting angles, hangers, etc. Climbing gear should be on and groundie should remove the ladder(target) away from the tree. 


If we are talking about a small ornamental prune with the use of an orchard ladder, it is also an accepted method.


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## haas (Sep 24, 2009)

What's the difference between an arborist rope and a climbing rope?

Haven't gotten the TCC book yet, but I'm just curious. Seems that most arborist rope is a bit thicker 11mm-13mm. I have some 10.4mm climbing rope? Is that ok to use?


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## rngrchad (Sep 24, 2009)

HEY, IVE BEEN LOOKING FOR STRAIGHT LONG LEAF TOBACCO. i CANT FIND ANY. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHERE TO GET STRAIGHT LONG LEAF TOBACCO OR WHO MAKES IT?
:bang:


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## ozzy42 (Sep 24, 2009)

You guys still going on about the ladder thing?
they are safe if you use them propperly.
































; said:


>



.


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## lego1970 (Sep 25, 2009)

haas said:


> What's the difference between an arborist rope and a climbing rope?
> 
> Haven't gotten the TCC book yet, but I'm just curious. Seems that most arborist rope is a bit thicker 11mm-13mm. I have some 10.4mm climbing rope? Is that ok to use?




I'm not a 100% but I believe most dynamic or even static rock climbing lines are nylon, kevlar, or something inbetween. Most rock climbing lines are kernmantle construction which is like two ropes in one, an outer sheath with an inner core. Most tree ropes are Polyester which has less stretch, softer and allow hitches of the same diameter rope to work better. Most modern ropes are either 12 or 16 strand although there are still 3 strand and kernmantle types out there. The kernmantle ropes have a tendency to milk during tree work, which means the inner and outer parts of the rope don't stay together and you get uneven segments of rope. I could be wrong but I believe the 12 strand has lower stretch but non-spliceble plus wear is directed along a smaller number of strands and the 16 strand has greater stretch but spliceable plus the wear is distributed along a larger number of strands. Most tree ropes are 1/2 for both ANSI standards and it allows better grip. I believe there is an exception for 7/16 lines but I do not know what that is. The above statements are what I believe to be correct but I could be wrong on one or all of the statements so please double check with your supplier. Good luck.


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