# Manual Log Turner for Sawmill



## TraditionalTool (Jul 13, 2019)

I haven't been around here in a while as I haven't done any milling in a while.

I am starting to mill some timber again and the one thing I'm continually reminded about is how difficult it is to move and turn logs on the sawmill. I have a rough terrain forklift which I use, but there's a lot of getting in/out of the lift when I need to turn a log...need to wrap straps and cinch down low, then get back in the lift to pull the forks up, etc...often it takes a couple times getting in/out of the lift for each cut, which makes for a long day.

Obviously I don't have any hydraulics on my mill, and short of that, I've come up with an idea for manually turning logs that I think will work nicely.

The concept is similar to what the guy who made the Swing-Set gear in the past. He seems to have gone out of business as his site no longer exists, but he had some sprockets wrapped with #80 chain which he used a floor jack to lift both ends of the logs to easily turn them. I was going to build something similar to that, but then a light came on in my head recently and I remembered a project I did to build machine skates to move my heavy machines around the shop, and I used ball bearings, which I still have a load of. I bought a big lot off ebay from Denso. I suspect they were used for alternators in cars.




What I am thinking about doing is something like this.




I am not sure how I will fabricate that arc, if I will cut some steel plate, or bend pipe and weld axles to, or bend tube, etc...but I will try to have a row of ball bearings on each side. Maybe 8 per side to cover a 36" arc, that would be about 4" between bearings.

The idea is to be able to roll the log with a cant hook easily. Any comments?

Cheers,
Alan


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## BobL (Jul 13, 2019)

I wouldn't use any sort of a curved surface, big logs won't fit the curve and neither will smaller logs and the curve will just get in the way of mill
If you just use flat "greased up' steel or HDPE lined say 2 x 4" RHS beans perpendicular to the long you should be able to rotate logs on these up against a stop with a decent cant hook 
That's all we have on the 35" BSM, we're cant hook rolling regularly shaped logs up to about 24" in diameter. Not so easy when there are branch unions or bulges in the way but its going to be the same with bearings.





This show strive old and new log lockers


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 14, 2019)

BobL said:


> I wouldn't use any sort of a curved surface


I guess it doesn't need to be curved if you use a cant hook towards the dog, but the arch would allow both direction of free spin. I think that could be useful. I know I can only cut a 36" diameter log on my carriage, and I only have 32" of total width. I've cut a bigger log by using a chainsaw to get it to conform. This brings up an interesting point. Where I want to have the manual log turner is when I'm cutting a log into a cant, mostly, or better stated might be with live edge logs, opposed to cants that have been cut down. Once I have think into a cant, they are usually manageable with a cant hook on the bed. Getting them into a cant is easier said than done.

Also, toe board are something I don't have and I originally had envisioned having interchangeable heads for a floor jack that I could swap out between toe boards and turning. I was talking with a friend today about what it would take to add hydraulics, cause that's what I really would like. The manual turner is a stop gap for me, but a fairly easy project that I think I can do in a day's time if I focus.



BobL said:


> If you just use flat "greased up' steel or HDPE lined say 2 x 4" RHS beans perpendicular to the long you should be able to rotate logs on these up against a stop with a decent cant hook
> That's all we have on the 35" BSM, we're cant hook rolling regularly shaped logs up to about 24" in diameter.



24" seems about what I have, but some have been larger...the largest I've cut is a 40", I had to get it to conform with the chainsaw.



BobL said:


> Not so easy when there are branch unions or bulges in the way but its going to be the same with bearings.


Maybe, but one thing is certain about bearings. They can withstand a great deal of radial force! Spacing out the bearings would make an incredibly capable spin device.



BobL said:


> This show strive old and new log lockers


This is what I currently use for dogging, not ideal but not bad and I can use a clamp like you have in yours. The previous owner had these built and they use some of the parts from the original Norwood bed, which he replaced. I have another style like yours also which accept square tube and allow it to adjust up and down. I also have some interchangeable dogs for those as well, some are just a tube with a flat plate, and the plate holds the bottom of the cant so I can saw low. Others with pointed screws similar to what you have...



Here it is in use, I normally use it for edging a number of boards. I use the other dogs for other securing.




Hope your sweetgum has been sweet these days...

Cheers,
Alan


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 14, 2019)

BobL said:


> This show strive old and new log lockers
> View attachment 746712



I really need to make some posts like this with the crank, have been meaning to do that with some allthread for a while, and keep putting it off.

Thank you for reminding me of that...I need to make a few...can't have too many clamps...

Cheers,
Alan


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## ChoppyChoppy (Jul 14, 2019)

What kind of mill do you have?


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 14, 2019)

ChoppyChoppy said:


> What kind of mill do you have?


It's a Norwood LumberMate 2000, so it's an older mill, but it doesn't have the original bed. It has a custom 30' bed and can saw approx. 27' as-is. It has a 23HP B&S gas engine. Here's a pic of it:




I haven't used it much in the past couple years, but just now getting a foundation for a home I'm building and want to mill some of my own timber.

I purchased a dual head shaper in hopes I could t&g my own flooring. It needs some TLC, but just bearings and minor adjustments.

For my property I'm building at, I will be getting a 320 amp service, and I've already bought a 20HP Phase Perfect (digital phase converter). I might think about converting my LM2000 over to use a 15HP or 20HP 3 phase electric motor.

Short of that, I'm ok with how it is now, but would like to make some mods to make it easier to mill by myself.

Cheers,
Alan


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 15, 2019)

You just don't need to build something like that. Just put together a winch set up with a GOOD winch, and it will do everything you need.







In fact, I wouldn't want those rollers on MY mill, as it's too easy for the log to roll back when I'm trying to hold it in place...

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 17, 2019)

I may try to add a winch, but I can use a cant hook on small logs like that on your mill. That's like an 8 footer. Let's talk 20+ feet and how that winch works.


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## Sawyer Rob (Jul 17, 2019)

I didn't have any problems at all turning this 21' x 30"...






Just buy a quality AMERICAN made winch, and you won't have any problems...

Don't come back wining if you buy a china made cheapo winch, and it won't turn a big log though...

SR


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## Franny K (Jul 18, 2019)

Is there room to leave the rough terrain forklift with the forks up kind of high so a come a long could be used to turn the log as it progresses into being a cant? The winch set up as pictured in post #7 will need some pretty strong stops. If the winch pulls straight up not so much.


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## TraditionalTool (Jul 20, 2019)

Franny K said:


> Is there room to leave the rough terrain forklift with the forks up kind of high so a come a long could be used to turn the log as it progresses into being a cant? The winch set up as pictured in post #7 will need some pretty strong stops. If the winch pulls straight up not so much.


Yes, I've tried that and it doesn't work very well, IMO. I really want to add hydraulics, it makes the most sense.


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## Franny K (Jul 20, 2019)

TraditionalTool said:


> Yes, I've tried that and it doesn't work very well, IMO. I really want to add hydraulics, it makes the most sense.



It does not work real quick but the side effects like making the ground mush with wheel travel over it is minimized over what you mentioned as the present method. Putting the stuff that comes off the mill on the forks might be rendered not an option as well.

There are claw type and the kind with a large chain and blocks of metal every six inches or so. Either way I think the mill will need more space underneath. I suspect a few of the manufacturers would sell you the parts needed for the turner itself.

The manual way with only one person after the first face the log becomes unbalanced unlike it was when round and any device such as in post 1 will hit problems at some size log. Kind of easy to put massive spine compression that might not be good repeatedly.


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 26, 2022)

Franny K said:


> It does not work real quick but the side effects like making the ground mush with wheel travel over it is minimized over what you mentioned as the present method. Putting the stuff that comes off the mill on the forks might be rendered not an option as well.
> 
> There are claw type and the kind with a large chain and blocks of metal every six inches or so. Either way I think the mill will need more space underneath. I suspect a few of the manufacturers would sell you the parts needed for the turner itself.
> 
> The manual way with only one person after the first face the log becomes unbalanced unlike it was when round and any device such as in post 1 will hit problems at some size log. Kind of easy to put massive spine compression that might not be good repeatedly.



Sorry, I don't get over here much, and have been busy getting a 30x40 shop designed and building permit added on to my home build. I plan to retire there. The shop will be have 6-8 feet of slab to hold my sawmill with a 30' bed.

Some of this info may be useful to others with manual mills, or even possibly a chainsaw mill, by using a hitch to mount a turner on, as an example.

I started to research this again and learned a few things. First, I want to point out that I posted this info on the Norwood forum prior to posting here, and wouldn't you know, Norwood kinda sorta heisted the idea and ran with it. Notice they didn't use an arch, so maybe you guys here were right, as I would imagine they tested that when developing this. The real idea here was to use ball bearings to assist in the turning, they did pretty much exactly what I have drawn in my pic and placed the bearings side-by-side. Bearings can hold an incredible amount of weight. I see they have some type of rubber/plastic wheel on the bearing. I am noting that so that if I decide to go that route, I will turn some UHMW possibly to press onto the bearing to act as a tire.

https://www.norwoodsawmills.com/rapid-dogging-rolling-system-set-of-2

One other thing that Norwood came out with that seems like a good idea, is these

https://www.norwoodsawmills.com/automatic-dogging-assist-hd36

The turner I can fabricate myself similar to what I have planed, but the ratcheting dog to assist it, I'm not clear how that works by looking at this picture. If anyone has one of them, please post a pic here if you can.

Then I stumbled across these solutions recently and this is actually not a bad solution for $1250, intended to fit on any manual sawmill.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265590629118

And they make a version without the hydraulic, but in my case I don't have hydraulics, so the prior is probably a better solution for me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/261821890243

I'm still researching as I still have some time. I was able to get my septic in which was being dragged out due to the BS pandemic. The contractor that did the septic for me did much of the grading for the shop. I'm now waiting on an estimate for the shop foundation which will incorporate 6-8 feet extra along the 40' side to hold the sawmill. I currently have electrical ran to the house foundation and water is connected with a single water spigot for a hose by the foundation. The septic contractor used it to compact the grading.

Woodmizer also has a manual turner, but I saw a couple hilarious videos of a guy using one on an LT40...it didn't work very well at all.

https://www.norwoodsawmills.com/automatic-dogging-assist-hd36

I still contend that if you mill timber and you want to reap the highest yields, cutting quarter sawn hardwoods is where it's at. Whether you want to sell it or use it for furniture like I do, that is the best quality you can get. Most folks on YT milling timber are just plain sawing slabs from top to bottom and the wood is not nearly as stable unless you fully dry the slabs and re-dimension them to S4S. The bottom line is that anyone that mills alone knows of this dilemma in operating a sawmill by one's self. There are some winch solutions and I may go that route also, something like this, and some people have added power winches to one of these types.



https://www.foxforestry.com/product/log-loader-log-turner-b1001/



My foundation which will sit in front of the shop. Rear of home and shop face the lake. This is the basement which has 10' walls, half of it will be used for hand tool work and making handsaws, a hobby of mine. Septic system is to the right of the foundation. The ONLY place I can put the sawmill on the side of the shop is to use the left side between the door and end of building, it's 31.5' and my sawmill bed is 30'. The right side will not be accessible with my forklift. Do I need 30' bed? Not really unless I want to build more with full size logs, but I can assure you I would build timberframe for anything else. No more full size logs for me, just too much heavy lifting. I primarily work by myself.








This post is long, but I'll toss a small picture of the shell going on the foundation. Eastern White Pine.


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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 26, 2022)

A good "American made" 2 speed boat winch easily turns logs and if you make up an adapter, it's powered and works great with a cordless drill. Mine works great.

The same winch can be used for log rolling, right from its turning position...

I'm wondering how much quarter sawing have you done? There's no advantage to QSawing many logs...

Anyway, good luck with your project...

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 27, 2022)

Rob,

I do have a hex drive Dutton-Lainson trailer winch I got to raise/lower the i-beam sections that hold the plates on my hydraulic press, maybe something like that would work nicely with a cordless driver. I think something like that would work fine with the J-Hook connected to the cable. The worm drivers are a pretty nice setup and the hex drive allow you to adapt either the handle or hex.
I sure like the idea of that self contained hydraulic unit, I sent an email to inquire about it.

I am really looking forward to getting my sawmill setup so I can use it at my property. Are you still using your Norwood?


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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 27, 2022)

The manual winch set up on my mill will turn the biggest/longest logs no problem, you can see what it looks like here,






Yes, still have the same BSM, I just milled a load of Blk. Cherry lumber for a guy, the other day,






It's been a great BSM...

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 27, 2022)

I'm having a hard time focusing on your turner with that beautiful tractor in front of my face! LOL I saw a similar manual winch on the Woodmizer site, and it did get me to thinking that it would most likely be able to turn most logs I work with. Even one of these arms with a power winch wouldn't be a bad solution. The Dutton-Lainson I mentioned has a removable handle that fits onto a hex, so just using a hex driver would assist something like that greatly.
I think I could fabricate something like that out of 2" square tube, and might be able to incorporate a 2" hitch receiver onto the mill to attach it. That might allow me to dual purpose it and use it on the back of my flatbed to winch logs onto the flatbed.

I might be able to make one for about $400-$500 including the winch, Woodmizer has one for $750 but that might require some fabrication to attach it. I think I would be better welding up my own out of 2" tube, as I could use that on a truck hitch at some point. Problem is that 2" square tube ain't exactly cheap these days...but that would be one EFFin' sturdy turner.

I envy you for being in "Cherry Country", that's like hitting the lotto in itself. I have mostly live oak around me, which is not good for milling. There are a lot of walnut orchards in the area by my property, but I learned recently that you can't actually mill those because they use an English Walnut base, and graft fruit trees on top to get the best yield at harvest time. This leaves the upper tree as too small to mill. The walnuts I've been able to find are mostly home owners that had one blow on their house and looking to get someone to remove it for "FREE". For a non-professional sawyer, that's dangerous work without insurance...For me, I wouldn't care if it took me an entire weekend to mill up a pile of cherry like you have there, that would most likely be an entire year of projects for me. My 3 favorite woods to work are walnut, cherry and hard maple (in that order of preference). I do have a few 12' cedar logs, they cracked some on the ends...not my favorite wood to cut as the silica is tough on blades. One log per blade, If I'm lucky...before a resharpen... (I don't own a sharpener, so send them out)


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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 27, 2022)

I have lots of cherry, maple and walnut here, along with many others in my woodlot. I milled this cherry a week or so ago,






I don't saw full time, I run my mill when I feel like it, I have a pile of cherry to mill right now, along with some oak.

That's a really good brand of winch you have, it should serve you well.

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 28, 2022)

I would kill to get even one nice cherry log that I could get wide boards out of like that...milling is like real estate, it all gets down to location, location, location...
I'm anxious to work on a tube frame to mount a winch to, either manual or power, or even using the cordless hex driver. That will most likely take care of me unless I was milling full time to generate $$$s. I have always just wanted to be able to turn trees into furniture and/or be able to build my log home.


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 29, 2022)

Rob,

Look at this video, it does essentially what I was suggesting. See approx 6:00 for the manual turner similar to yours with bearings and 7:00 for what I described above with the arch. Is it any surprise I posed that on the Norwood site a number of years ago...looks like it works pretty darn good to me, but who am I to say...see 7:00 into the video. I'd like to spin 12' logs, they're spinning 8' logs. I think it would work fine. No arch needed.

I'm trying to understand the Briggs & Stratton 23HP V-Twin. They still offer it and offer a hydraulic package on the HD36, but I'm not clear if that charges the battery or not. I always kill a battery, even if they stay disconnected for a couple years they go dead. Do you have electric start on yours? I was looking at hydraulic levers at surplus center, they sell levers and cylinders. None of it is easy to adapt and the manual makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking the manual with the hex drive and a set of raiseable (is that a word? LOL) bearings to rotate it on. If a 12' log could be spun without a cant hook, that would be nice.


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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 29, 2022)

I don't want my logs to move around on the mill too easy, I want some friction to the cant/log to hold it while I mill it. Dogging is much less important that way.

The winch turns the logs easy enough that turning a log or cant isn't a problem.

Yes, my mill is electric start, and I don't have batt. problems at all. My 23hp easily keeps the batt. charged.

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 30, 2022)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Yes, my mill is electric start, and I don't have batt. problems at all. My 23hp easily keeps the batt. charged.


Do you know if there's an alternator built into the v-twin? This is something I haven't been able to figure out. It must charge the battery...


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## Sawyer Rob (Dec 30, 2022)

Yes mine charges the batt... IF your B&S came with your mill, it charges the batt.., if it didn't then THAT B&S could have come without a charge circuit in it.

SR


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## TraditionalTool (Dec 31, 2022)

Sawyer Rob said:


> Yes mine charges the batt... IF your B&S came with your mill, it charges the batt.., if it didn't then THAT B&S could have come without a charge circuit in it.
> 
> SR


Yes, I know mine charges the battery, and I would use electrical for power feed, but not sure that would even be needed for hydraulics, read on...the $64k question is if it has enough amps to run anything else useful, like power feed? I think I should be able to test the voltage regulator going to the battery and make sure I have 14.x~ volts, if it is only like 12.6 volts I know something is wrong. It should work as a car, very similar, AFAICT. However, the wires are thin and can they handle the amperage? This is what I can't seem to find details on in the spec/parts.

What confuses me is that Norwood does sell a unit that adapts to the HD36, and it appears to have a 2nd smaller 5HP gas engine on it to run the hydraulic pump. In that regard, maybe I could adapt a belt drive hydraulic pump and run that off the V-twin which drives the blade wheel?

The only reason I can figure Norwood didn't create it that way is there was no easy way to adapt a belt driven pump to the current carriage without having the customer having to drill and/or tap anything...forbid...seems that everything bolts/clamps in place, very little is welded on the carriage, but that's the primary portion I use.

If I had to create a list of things to improve, I would list the in the order of priority for me:

log turning
power feed
band blade tension
log dogging (I have a solution right now, my bed is DIY)
toe boards


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## dave_dj1 (Thursday at 4:04 PM)

A foot lever jack ? Kind of like the ones on a hydraulic saw but use your weight to push the log, push down on the lever and the jack goes up.


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