# Rigging Blocks & Pulleys???



## Redbull (Apr 8, 2004)

Do any of you use any other blocks and pulleys except those specifically designed for arborist applications. Basicly what I'm getting at is, are there any other cheaper alternatives? I'm willing to spend the money to get the job done right but if anyone has any trade secrets to save a couple of bucks, then I'm listening. I have a honey locust removal and the whole back yard is a target. Every inch is landscaped except a small walkway. I have three spars with minimal brush and the rest is just blocking down wood. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Brandon


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 8, 2004)

In a pinch, I've used a clevis. I rarely use pulleys at all, but when ya need em, ya need em.


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## xtremetrees (Apr 8, 2004)

Ive used loop runners with not one but two steel biners to rope out heavier wood. Dont use one carabiner it to less of a radious for the rope to bend and hold on. A clevis is much used as MB suggest and probably stronger than what i suggest.
Oppose the gates on the biners if you do use two to increase the surface area your rope will be running over.
Locus is heavy wood dude start small and work to bigger pieces its also prone to splintering. Locus dust burns my eyes wear your goggles and direct those chips out your face dog.
Enjoy!


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## Redbull (Apr 8, 2004)

Rocky, that's the exact set up I was looking at. I was just wondering if there was a little cheaper alternative. 
I'm looking at spending about $500 on gear for this removal and I bid the job pretty low. In other words, I'm not making any money after paying my help. On a positive note though, I will be learning something new and I know the gear will pay itself over and over. Any other suggestions are welcome. Thanks for the input.
Brandon


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 8, 2004)

Those stamped steel pullies are OK for light rigging, but don't take side loading too well.

I have a few of them but have gone almost exclusivly to the ISC aluminum spring blocks, You can load them anywhich way.


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## dbeck (Apr 8, 2004)

I am a fan of spring blocks compared to the blocks w/ the screw tight construction. At the end of a long removal, I have climbed back to the block to take the final top and found the threaded pin has loosened. Not a good situation to say the least...just thought I'd add that. Anyone else had this happen?


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## Redbull (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm not going to be taking anything real big when blocking down the spar. The biggest spar is only about 18"-20" in diameter. So, according to my trusty "Weight of Green Logs" chart, at 20" diameter I could take 2-3' blocks and not exceed 500lbs. Not real heavy stuff but still substantial.


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## NeTree (Apr 8, 2004)

Better to buy the best, and have it for when you DO need to handle more weight, than spend a little less now for something lighter, only to need something heavier down the road.

Trust me... you'll be wishing you had.


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## Stumper (Apr 8, 2004)

I've roped out about a jillion small chunks on CMI Rescue pulleys. The Big blocks have the advantage of being hard to overload. The Rescue Pulleys rated at 5000-6000 lbs(note this is max. tensile--- working loads are much less-arborist rule 10% of breaking everyone elses 20-25% of rated tensile) handle small pieces just fine and are easy to pack around in the tree.


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## Ax-man (Apr 8, 2004)

I can't add much more than has been said except for adding some details.

Like MB said a clevis can be used, if you do use one, get the biggest one you can find, it might be somewhat of a overkill for what your doing, the bigger clevis will help spread the bend ratio on the rope when it is shock loaded.

Brian mentioned the Tenex slings a definate must have, if you don't have these 5/8 Arborplex or Stable Braid could be used with bowline knots or jacked bowlines tied in the end, just be careful as the bowline will be the weakest link in this set up.

Brian mentioned the Port a Wrap, again a definate must have. The Port a Wrap 1 if you can still buy it would have a tendency to let coils fall off the device when blocking wood, if it wasn't locked off good. The improved version is a much better tool for blocking wood.

An investment in heavy rigging equipment is money well spent. If taken care of properly will last a very long time. The next time you need it you will have it.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 8, 2004)

Redbull,
I have a cheaper alternative, since i live in the area. Well i also happen to have all of the necessary equipment,,hobb's device, GRCS, ISC spring blocks, Tenex eye sling, Whoopies & Loopie ,3/4 inch bull line, along w/ probobally any other kind of rigging or climbing equip which may be necessary... This all comes w/ myself to come show you how to work it.. This may cost you a little less than the 500 than what your looking at spending for this job,, If you need the equipment and some extra help PM me and we can get together.


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## NeTree (Apr 8, 2004)

See? Problem solved.

Nice thing about this site... you can meet alot of cool dudes who understand what you do all day, cuz they do it too.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 8, 2004)

When it comes to Blocks, we have 3 different ones and with out a doubt nothing beat the ISC spring Blocks especially if you'll be using it repeatedly Not having to worry about it coming unthreaded or worry of dropping the pin is so great, Plus for the amount of weight they can handle they are exceptionally light....


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## ORclimber (Apr 8, 2004)

The 4" CMI #15221 sure is handy. It get used for high lead truck skidding. Good for redirects and MA when pulling trees over. And as a false crotch of course.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 9, 2004)

Everybody talks about tennex like it's good. I can't think of a rope I like less, except maybe three strand.
Sure the vendors like it 'cus it's cheaper than dirt and easy to splice, but the splices don't last, the loose construction of the rope makes it not suited to tree work, it's limp hand makes it difficult to work with and it's not very strong for it's size.
If I were going to put up with these unattractive qualities, i'd use Vectran or one of the new high modules ropes. and save on size, weight and bulk.

I like the aluminum bolcks with the captive pin, and make sure you can remove the sheave for cleaning and inspection.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 9, 2004)

Let's see here, all the great things about Tenex,,, well it's easy to splice like you said,,,cheap as dirt like you said, and it's also much lighter than double braid. These are all qualities i'll take if all i have to give up is a little durability and limpness...Do much splicing MM? How many tenex slings can you put out in the time it takes to do one double braid? Thats why tenex is better..By the way i'm not sure what you mean by the splices not lasting i haven't incurred this problem...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 9, 2004)

I don't go for cheap and easy, I want tools that are the best. I'll run Stihl, you run Pullon.


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## rbtree (Apr 9, 2004)

And the one thing that TreeJunkie missed, and also contrary to your statement, Mike, is that 12 strand hollow braided polyester (which Samson calls Tenex) is that it is stronger than double braid.

I have a 7/8th whoopie that is still going strong after appx 8 years of use....not coated either so it's real limp...nor does it have chafe tubing added. We dont use it daily, not even close,but still it 's time to retire it.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 9, 2004)

Omst of the high modulus products will have poor wear charictaristics, so build a chafe guard into any whoopie/loopie's made from the materials. E.g. some web tubing to cover th burry on a loopie.


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## Matt Follett (Apr 9, 2004)

Your guys like those spring blocks eh? I keep thinking about getting one... We've got the big steel cheek plate ones, with the captive pin, But as dbeck mentioned sometimes the pin will loosen, in fact, I may have posted this here last year, or maybe it was the year before, I can't remember now, but anyway...

On a big removal, we had the pin loosen right off untill on one piece the pulley actually opened up!!!!! The load kept everything together, but man those were some scary moments. 

So keep you eye on that pin if you've got/get one of those blocks!!!


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *I don't go for cheap and easy, I want tools that are the best. I'll run Stihl, you run Pullon.  *



I'm not quite sure what makes you think I'd be running a poulon. Anyway the cost factor really has nothing to do w/ it.. It's simply a superior product in my opinon. 
Jps, Where can i get the chafe gaurd tubing?


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## Lumberjack (Apr 9, 2004)

Sherrill sells it.


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## Robh (Apr 9, 2004)

When it comes to buying safty gear you should ask yourself this question: just how much is my life worth? The answers will come much easyer....Rob


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeJunkie _
> *I'm not quite sure what makes you think I'd be running a poulon. Anyway the cost factor really has nothing to do w/ it.. It's simply a superior product in my opinon.
> Jps, Where can i get the chafe gaurd tubing? *



I just assume you run Pullon because they are cheap.

If Tennex is a supperior product, why do you need chafe gaurd? Stable Braid has it built on, it called a sheath.

A question for you, how is Tennex supperior to Vectran, other than cheapness?


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 10, 2004)

The chafe guard is for the Vectran, Aramid, Dyneema and like products that don't wear as well as polly.

I think once Tenex (or the like) has been loaded a few times the looseness is not a big problem. The soft lay can be a problem, but for loopies and balancers it works very well.

If you want to go for a loopie that will run with a 1 inch rope then go with the hightech fibers so you can reduce the size of your sling rope.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 11, 2004)

hello.....


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## Lumberjack (Apr 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeJunkie _
> *hello..... *




Howdy!

I perfer tennex over a double braid. Tennex is much easier to splice, and its splices are adjustable, making it faster to rig tighter.


Mike is bein an odd ball, loopies and whoopies suck


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Howdy!
> 
> I perfer tennex over a double braid. Tennex is much easier to splice, and its splices are adjustable, making it faster to rig tighter.
> ...



I just said I don't like tennex. It's only quality is that it's cheap. Loopies and whoopies should last a long time, so why not make them out of good rope? Tennex is not he only hollow braid, and double braids can have hollow braid cores. Double braids also have many nice qualities a limp hollow braid doesn't.


Just because you're ignorant, doesn't make me odd. Maybe you should do two or three more days of tree work so you have some actual experience before you insult me.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 12, 2004)

So Mike M. What do you make woopies out of? If get all of this right, then, I'm not hearing anyone say that tenex is the greatest rope out there, nor is it the greatest hollow braid.. However, it fits it application,, and being cheap is just an added bonus....


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## Lumberjack (Apr 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *I just said I don't like tennex. It's only quality is that it's cheap. Loopies and whoopies should last a long time, so why not make them out of good rope? Tennex is not he only hollow braid, and double braids can have hollow braid cores. Double braids also have many nice qualities a limp hollow braid doesn't.
> 
> 
> Just because you're ignorant, doesn't make me odd. Maybe you should do two or three more days of tree work so you have some actual experience before you insult me. *




Ok, in the 5 days I worked in spring break I cleared 4.5k, and put out 8.5k in bids.

Then people that have been in the buisness for the last 30 plus years say it is good. 

I have never seen a loopie made out of double braid, but I am no splicin wizz. I use tennex slings, and have never had a problem with them.

If double braid loopies are so great, or even possible, then why doesnt Sherrill sell them. They love makein money, maybe you should patent it?


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## NeTree (Apr 12, 2004)

Carl,

Any time you want info on splicing, ask NickfromWI.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 12, 2004)

Oh yes, Nick is the go too guy for splicing.

Nick:

Can you make a loopie outa double braid?

Can a locking brumnel work on 16 strand? (From another thread that was never answered)


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 14, 2004)

Here's a pic of my favorite Tenex Eye sling and IsC spring Block...


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 15, 2004)

Is that lanyard placement safe?


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## rbtree (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Oh yes, Nick is the go too guy for splicing.
> 
> Nick:
> ...



i'm not Nick, nor much of a splicer, but the answer to both is a resounding NO!


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## Lumberjack (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *i'm not Nick, nor much of a splicer, but the answer to both is a resounding NO! *




I talked to nick off forum, and he said that the locking brumnel would work on a 16 strand, but that the long taper was a stronger slice. He also said that the lanyard that he is using now actually has the brumnel in the 16 strand.

I cant remember if he said that a double braid whoopie is possible (I think so), but I know that he said that a hollow 12 strand (the awful tennex) is much more practical.


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *the awful tennex*



Since your sarcastic remark proves you still don't understand my comments, I'll try one last time, and I'll type real slow so even you might get it.
I never said Double braids make better whoopies or loopies than tennex. I said I don't like tennex, it's only quality is it's cheap.
Here is a list of 12 strand hollow core ropes. I feel many are better than tenex, each for it's own reason(s). You will find tennex is the cheapest, not the best.
(that list is just one of MANY rope makers with 12 strand hollow core ropes)


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 15, 2004)

TG, Yeah i know it sopposed to be above the sling for safety, the way i saw it was hey, what's it gonna get hurt by the tennex, most of the time i try to play by the rules, that time i just wound up tying off the sling above my lanyard...Oops! But yeah i'd say it was safe, i'm still here talking about it and all went well...


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 15, 2004)

TJ, funny spot to tie your sling, right where the tree tapers down. Funny spot to choose to make the cut too, at the widest spot. Oh well, by the hour. LOL


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## Tom Dunlap (Apr 15, 2004)

There are just as many reasons for putting your lanyard above as below the sling. This has been gnawed no before as well as being written about in an article in Arborists News I think. 

I am wondering where your second tie-in is located? Besides a lanyard, do you have a climbing line tie-in?

Tom


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 15, 2004)

Tom, he doesn't need a second tie in, he's standing on top of a ladder. HEHE.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 15, 2004)




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## NeTree (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *TJ, funny spot to tie your sling, right where the tree tapers down. Funny spot to choose to make the cut too, at the widest spot. Oh well, by the hour. LOL *



What's going to happen when that chunk comes off? The taper will guarantee the rope won't anywhere.

What if he's cutting 4 footers for firewood? Make an odd length just to avoid cutting thru a bit more wood?

The sling will prolly slide down a bit, so what? Shock absorber. Maybe there's a notch we can't see to prevent that from happening anyways?


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## NeTree (Apr 15, 2004)

Dang Rock, I guess I need to type faster.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 15, 2004)

Here is my opinion.






Like the file name says, it got the job done.

I wouldnt like my sling sliding down the spar, but like Eric said, it was ok. However if it slid, then his lanyard might be under the sling, and that might not be too cool, as it is his only APPARENT tie in. However there is a snap hanging off his center hard point, so there might be something I aint seein, but if so, that is alot of slack.

It would seem to me that the piece is properly tied, and isnt going anywhere. 

He is wearing twice as much PPE as half the people in this industry. 

It got the job done, post more pics!!

Also, about the firewood, unless you have a hydraulic spliter (or even then), then I think that I could find easier than that to split and process to firewood.


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## rbtree (Apr 15, 2004)

Please excuse me for getting picky, Mike, but that list includes arborplex and true blue, which are not hollow core rope, and are not splicable normally. Also, I'm sure some of those other lines listed, which aren't as strong as Tenex, are cheaper.

And Tenex is very strong, considering it uses no synthetic aramid fibers.

Additionally, I'm not sure, and will need to ask my supplier and/or Nick, if the aramid ropes require special splicing care, due to the slippery nature of the rope.

I'm soon going to be making a bunch of slings of varying kinds, and will be using spectra or similar lines, most likely. Anybody need some lines, let me know, I get product for real low prices.


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## rbtree (Apr 15, 2004)

One of the rather inflexible things taught at Arbormaster training was to be tied in twice and to have both placed above the lowering sling. That can be OK, but one of the two tie-ins should be choked around the spar, then it's not going anywhere. And since the sling should be tied as high as is practical to minimize drop, there's not a lot of room. So, I see no reason not to affix a lanyard below the sling, but above the block. If for some reason, it gets stuck, and the climber needs to move down, he should be able to attach from both lanyard ends...which might mean to have a quick release on each end..carabiner or other snap.

Nice pic, TJ


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## Lumberjack (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Carl?
> 
> His earplugs are yellow. Look closer. *



I thought that I saw them, but I couldnt tell, so I sided on the safe side. No offense intended.


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## NeTree (Apr 15, 2004)

Carl?

His earplugs are yellow. Look closer.


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## Lumberjack (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *One of the rather inflexible things taught at Arbormaster training was to be tied in twice and to have both placed above the lowering sling.*



That is what I thought, but in some of there pics (more evident in last years catalog, but it can be seen in this years) it shows the lanyard being under the sling. What gives?


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## Lumberjack (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by netree _
> *Carl?
> 
> His earplugs are yellow. Look closer.
> *



Couldnt tell if that was ear (albeit weird if it was), or a plug. My bad!


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## Tim Gardner (Apr 15, 2004)

TJ, I did not intend to stir things up. I was just asking a question. I have always placed my lanyard above the sling and my climbing line at waist level. I am always trying to learn a better way of doing things. I should have added more to my post than just the question.

BTW, very professional looking picture. I really liked the way you made your notch.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Apr 15, 2004)

I like to see the pics get picked apart in a freindly professional way. 

Beats the backslapping, mutual admiration that happens so often. 


Brandon's a tuff guy, he can take the nitpicking.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 15, 2004)

Thanks everyone, I should have explained the pic a little first i guess,, First off, I do have another tie in it is just hanging low, w/ s little slack in it. Made it easier to move around. Before i made my cut i placed it (my climbing line above the sling..I prefer one above and one below. Tying a timber hitch below your lanyard and rope is a real pain,, much easier just to have the sling above as you see in the pic. 
In regard to where i cut it, well yeah it probobally wasn't the greatest spot, but i didn't want to take it smaller, and wasn't comfy w/ it much larger. There were 3 pieces i took this size, this was the first. So i wanted to try to keep to a general size. That way i'd end up where i wanted. 
No it wasn't for firewood, that was garbage.
and last of all yes i was wearing earplugs.

Thanks for all of the compliments and the criticism..Both are always needed...


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 15, 2004)

yes the earplugs are yellow


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 15, 2004)

and to my recollection, i don't believe there was any slipage at the sling. I see how that could be an issue. good point though.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeJunkie _
> *and to my recollection, i don't believe there was any slipage at the sling. I see how that could be an issue. good point though. *




It CAN be an issue. I had it happen to me once when I was learning how to rope chunks. The hitch wasn't snug enough and it slide down on my lanyard, dragging me down the tree 3 or 4 feet. NOT a fun event.
After that, I made sure to set my hitch tighter, and to NEVER have my primary lanyard below the hitch.


And Brian, when someone posts a smiley after someone says something funny(What MM said), that means they thought it was funny, too. Can you dig it?



No, probably not.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 15, 2004)

The only time i recollect slippage of a sling was while rigging down blocks of royal palm. Thankfully out of the bucket. I guess you should make little notches in the side of the trunk for your sling; b/c that sling slid until the chunk hit the ground. Thankfully nothing was hurt.


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## dbeck (Apr 15, 2004)

has anybody ever had a sling that was tied properly slide? I haven't seen it myself, but I could understand that an improperly tied sling could move. Maybe a case for loopies?


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *
> What a bunch of PC wussies we have here. No wonder we have so few REAL treemen posting here, just a few marginal climbers and several kids who are trying to learn. *



So which are you?


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## blackwaterguide (Apr 26, 2004)

I like the cmi 3 ton stainless, tenex whoopie for what I call heavy rigging. I've been doing a good deal of lighter rigging lately and am in search of a pre-tension device, such as a block and tackle. Noticed in Sherrill that they now offer double and triple pulleys. Anyone know whether a triple on top, double on botom, would be the way to go so far as mechanical advantage. And are their any other uses for such double and triple pulleys. Thanks, be careful out there.


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## TheSurgeon (Apr 26, 2004)

*Uh Oh!*

I hate to be the odd man out, but I NEVER have a second tie in, unless my original tie in point is 40 ft away. One steel core flipline and I'm good to go (homemade too!). When I get some time I'll post my 4yr. DEPENDABLE homemade flipline...


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## a_lopa (Apr 26, 2004)

never a second tie in???you only get one chance


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by aussie_lopa _
> *never a second tie in???you only get one chance *




That could set you up for an early retirement!


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## a_lopa (Apr 26, 2004)

true true but then you got to sit inside away from p.i


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## NickfromWI (Apr 26, 2004)

Huh, I never looked at this thread until a few minutes ago! I was missing out on a great discussion!

Here's my comments, FWIW...




> _Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel _
> *... If the block is hanging on an eye sling, just how could you possibly side load it? ...*



It happens. It's not supposed to. If you think about it in your head, it seems like it just can't. But trees aren't always ideal. Things can get in the way and mess things up! 

I love the ISC pullies with the spring-lock system. In my mind, there are no others!



> _Originally posted by Mike Maas _
> *If Tennex is a supperior product, why do you need chafe gaurd? Stable Braid has it built on, it called a sheath.
> 
> A question for you, how is Tennex supperior to Vectran, other than cheapness? *



In Stable Braid and all double braid polyester lines, the cover is not necessarily for chafe guard, as Mike suggests. The strength of these lines is shared fifty percent by each the cover and the core. Damage to the cover could result in a 50% reduction in rope strength. BUT, it does protect the core from grit and UV rays. Single braids might have higher breaking strengths when new, but I wonder who wins after 6months use?

And careful with a lot of those high-modulus hollow braids like Validator 12, Vectrus, etc. These lines are often braided for strength which results in a softer rope whose strands are just BEGGING to get snagged on bark. Like above, these ropes can have much higher ABS's than Yalex or Tenex, but do they maintain their strength in the long run? Right now, I know of know manufacturer who makes a tight (chafe resistant) line out of high-modulus fibers. These lines don't perform as well in these tight braids, when compared to nylon and polyester.



> _Originally posted by Lumberjack _
> *Can you make a loopie outa double braid?
> 
> Can a locking brumnel work on 16 strand? (From another thread that was never answered) *



Yes, you CAN do both. But there's no reason too. More work and the results are not worth it. The locking brummell is a more SECURE splice than the standard bury splice for 16 strand. It is much weaker, however. In break-tests, the rope will fail signifigantly lower than the bury splice because in the bury splice, the strands settle in and work together to share the load. In a locking brummel, (in any kind of rope) the strands cannot adjust to the load. I've had locked brummells break at 92% breaking strength in Yalex. I wouldn't expect to get that high of strength retention in XTC, a much firmer rope.

One could justify the locked version of the Brummell in 16 strand because in what we use it for, security (likelihood of the thing not falling apart in use) is what we are looking for, not necessarily strength. I only know of one instance where a 16strand splice came undone (in braided safety blue split tail, done by New England's splicers, not me!). It can happen, apparently. Though the possibility of failure during normal use exists with the standard bury splice, I still prefer it to the few locked brummell versions I've tried. I insure againsts splice slippage by burying more pics before starting the taper. All manufacturers reccomend 5. I go at least 7 or 8. Depending on the firmness of the rope, I might go more. In some Buccanneer line, I've gone as much as 15. That's loose stuff!

And the double-braid loopie? Yeah, you can do it. It's a pain. See the pic. This one shows a whoopie with a little carabiner eye. It wasn't hard to make, but it is a bit tough to adjust. It's with Yale's Double Esterlon (their superior version of Stable Braid!).



> _Originally posted by rbtree _
> *Additionally, I'm not sure, and will need to ask my supplier and/or Nick, if the aramid ropes require special splicing care, due to the slippery nature of the rope.*



Yes, rb-wan, these ropes DO require special splicing care. In my experience, the supplier is not the one to ask. Ask the manufacturer. (Unless they are one in the same...then you're golden!)

Usually a bury splice with a much longer tail (usually 2-4 times what you'd see in polyester) is what is used. The Amsteel Blue splice doesn't do any of the crossing like you see in the Brummell or the Locking Brummell- they say just a straight bury. But talk to the makers of the rope and they should guide you in the right direction. Email me and I can help you, too.

Okay, I think that's all I have for now. Nice thread!

Oh, and TreeJunkie- I put my lanyard below the block sling, too.

Is it too early for a root-beer float?

love
nick


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 26, 2004)

Nope!

Or a brownie!!!


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## rbtree (Apr 26, 2004)

Except with my supplier, Nick. They're a big operation, doing all manner of splicing, rigging and net making for the fishing industry.


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## a_lopa (Apr 27, 2004)

i get my ropes from a fishermans co op at a fraction of the price,its funny that an arbor store will call it ''tree line'' and the co-op has the same stuff (supertrill)


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by NickfromWI _
> *And careful with a lot of those high-modulus hollow braids like Validator 12, Vectrus, etc. These lines are often braided for strength which results in a softer rope whose strands are just BEGGING to get snagged on bark. Like above, these ropes can have much higher ABS's than Yalex or Tenex, but do they maintain their strength in the long run? Right now, I know of know manufacturer who makes a tight (chafe resistant) line out of high-modulus fibers. These lines don't perform as well in these tight braids, when compared to nylon and polyester.
> 
> 
> *



So you consider tenex a "tight" Braid?
In my use of high modules ropes as loopies, slings, and bull ropes, I find them every bit as snag resistant as tenex, even better because you don't have such a huge rope to work with.

The cover adds strength to some double braids, but many double braids have the cover to protect the core where most of the strength comes from. These ropes can have the parts of the cover you don't need cut away to open up the core for it's advantages, like they do with spliced eye ulta tech. The same thing can be done with loopies, whoppies, and other applications.


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## NickfromWI (Apr 28, 2004)

*So you consider tenex a "tight" Braid?
In my use of high modules ropes as loopies, slings, and bull ropes, I find them every bit as snag resistant as tenex, .*

No, tenex is definately not a tight braid. It is a little better than the high-mod hollow braid lines that I've seen and worked with. But in my opinion, it's strands get snagged more than I would like. This would be fixed by weaving the rope tighter, which lowers the breaking strength of the new rope.

*The cover adds strength to some double braids, but many double braids have the cover to protect the core where most of the strength comes from. These ropes can have the parts of the cover you don't need cut away to open up the core for it's advantages, like they do with spliced eye ulta tech. The same thing can be done with loopies, whoppies, and other applications. * 

When I referred to the cover being an important part of the strength of the rope, I referred to Stable-braid and other double braid polyester lines....a cover AND core both of polyester. In these lines, you should treat the cover with care.

In lines like the ultratech (which you mentioned) the strength from the cover is negligible. And these are the lines that I like. If you look at many of these high-modulus double-braids, most have a polyester cover. That polyester cover is often very, very tightly woven, compared to the loose high-mod core. It is acceptable to cut away the cover on a line like Crystalyne (almost all of whose strength is the vectran core). You cannot treat double-braid polyester in the same way. Cover and core are crucial for strength.

Know your ropes....inside and out!

love
nick


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## a_lopa (Apr 29, 2004)

pulleys etc are over talked about,i only use pulleys for deflection or on a job that has an extreme amount of lowering a real tree person can read the tree well enough to use a few crutches one rope yes one,everyone wants to go new school when they dont know whats been working for decades,the more gear the more chance to stuff up,all this talk of ropes like steel cable and pulleys everywhere is a sales gimmick just like alloy spurs''how much time do you spend in the tree the salesman asks''oh all day ''well you need these spikes ''what a load of crap,learn the basics before spending money on all the rubish,


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## a_lopa (Apr 29, 2004)

a cruch dont slip either,i only consider myself to have a resonable knowledge of trees,you dont learn how to do take downs from reading a catologe although some here would disagree


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 29, 2004)

Rubish? You may be posting in the wrong forum mate. If you care to continue burning up ropes by running natural crotches so be it. But don't even come in here and bash those of us who have evolved. Our tools are not rubish, you just sound like a tight arse who isn't willing to pay out for proper equipment.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 29, 2004)

Old schoolers and new-tech climbers need to accept and respect each other's styles. There is no reason why one has to lord their techniques over another.

Or am I missing something here?


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## a_lopa (Apr 29, 2004)

everything has its place,diffrent strokes diffrent folks,by the time my rope is glazed its made me enough im no cheapskate and i dont work for peanuts.you obviously dont get it,using cruches saves time,labour. all getting the same job done.as i said i do use pulleys only when its necesary.im 30 with 12 yrs experience doing real work i dont own a hand saw im not after that market


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## murphy4trees (Apr 29, 2004)

> Old schoolers and new-tech climbers need to accept and respect each other's styles. There is no reason why one has to lord their techniques over another.



Spoken like a true die hard od schooler...
If you old schoolers tried "lording your techniques", the new schoolers would just laugh


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## rbtree (Apr 29, 2004)

Agreed, I use natural crotches routinely....for light lowering, the line will last for years. In a conifer, it is usually not time effective to set a pulley, and often, lifeline. 

That said, I own 7 pulleys, 5 blocks, and use 'em...enough!


Lying down on the job:


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## murphy4trees (Apr 29, 2004)

I've been meaning to put together a picyure book of co-dom failures to sell cabling work... that shot would probably make the cover....OUCH...


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *Spoken like a true die hard od schooler...
> If you old schoolers tried "lording your techniques", the new schoolers would just laugh *





Whats the deal, Daniel? Dis me every chance you get?

If it makes you feel superior, go ahead. I'm willing to help you in your time of need.


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 29, 2004)

+Aussie, 
Thank you very much. In your last statement you summed yourself up pretty well. Around here we would call your type a hack. With an attitude of only being in this business for the quick buck, w/ no real interest in actually caring for trees. Maybe you can find a site called Treebutchers.com, might fit your approach to tree care a little better. 
Aussie quote, "you obviously dont get it,using cruches saves time,labour." 
Actually I do get it. I grew up in this businesss, my father runs a company very similar to what i picture yours being like. I've been down that road, finally a new path came and now i can actually respect the business i'm in. This is something i could have never achieved working for that kind of company.


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm sure Aussie will bow to your mightyness, along with me, any day now.

Just not today, eh?


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## TreeJunkie (Apr 29, 2004)

I don't believe that was directed toward you MB. Thanks for the smart comment though.


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## murphy4trees (Apr 30, 2004)

> Whats the deal, Daniel? Dis me every chance you get? If it makes you feel superior, go ahead. I'm willing to help you in your time of need.


MB
OK.. here's the deal...
I don't mean any disrespect.... and I don't consider myself superior to you.. In the shape I AM in today... you could probably climb circles around me... 
And I do KNOW that "my" new school techniques superior to your old school techniques... 
I long for the day I get to read a post from you saying something to the effect that "the lightbulb has gone off and now you get what we all were talking about"... Everyone's gotta have a mission in life and I, perhaps misguidedly, have picked transforming the world, one old school climber at a time... and your the climber on the table now.. So I push and prod and poke and kick a little... but you're a tough nut to crack... 
So maybe I should just break down and send you $40 in gear... except to really get the full effect you need a spliced eye climbing rope too, which is getting a little pricey... Or perhaps we could take up a collection and have Sherrill send you the rope and gear...


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## a_lopa (Apr 30, 2004)

not being a smart ass but i have two climbers how work part time for me both hard nuts one has 17yrs exp the other same age as me 12 years residentual removals never worked for a company with a tower the older guy was dux of best tree college in aust and regulary gets called into the city to do the to hard trees he doesnt even own a pulley that i know of we had a laugh about him retiring his glazed workline the other day after a bit of ribing,so what if im in trees mainly to do removals after working my ass off for 100pr day for tight ass companys with ???? equipment. and i can give my mates work for good money


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## rbtree (Apr 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by murphy4trees _
> *I've been meaning to put together a picyure book of co-dom failures to sell cabling work... that shot would probably make the cover....OUCH... *



Sounds good, you soon to be famous and published writer. I normally expect $1500 for a cover shot, but since you're such a great fella, I'll give you one time rights for........


.....um..


your sister?

Uh oh, back to hiding


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## murphy4trees (Apr 30, 2004)

My sister is up there... in weight more than age...
You might need that GRCS to get her in the back of the truck for a hot date!!! Still open for the deal???


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## a_lopa (Apr 30, 2004)

he probably would be ha ha lol


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## rbtree (Apr 30, 2004)

get outta town!


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## MasterBlaster (Apr 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TreeJunkie _
> *I don't believe that was directed toward you MB. Thanks for the smart comment though. *





Forgive me, mate. I was pi$$ed from yur spur comment on another thread... I musta missed the smilie, or something.


Imagine that... tree climbers argueing with each other!!!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Apr 30, 2004)

You _can_ do lowering without a pulley and brake, the question is, *why would you*?

It's simply faster and easier with the proper equipment than without. My ground crew complains on those occasions I don't set proper lowering equipment, which isn't often. Their job is hard enough, why make it worse?

The old school/new school thing is not really about what method is better, it's about the old schooler not being willing to even try the new techniques, yet still insisting their method is better.
Now if you try new school, really give a technique a fair chance, then decide it doesn't work as well, then I can respect that. Espescially if you can put into words why you don't feel it has advantages.

A great example is Rocky J's use of false crotches on his climbing line. He tried them, decided it wasn't for him at this time and went back. He explained what it was he didn''t like, and I respect him for that, even if I don't agree.

This horse pooky, "I ain't never used no fancy rigging gear and I'm the best climber in four contries!", is just so stupid.

For the record, the stupid comment was aimed at aussie_lopa and Mb. Personally I think you guys are ok, just don't respect your attitude about progressive tree work.


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## a_lopa (Apr 30, 2004)

i find it makes it easier on ground crew on most occasions if there is a three man crew including climber the extra friction points lead to virtualy no raping,or if one groundie is suspending weight the other can pull the piece where you want it with the climber holding some friction on final decent too easy. no extra ropes no extra nothin just a few crutches that are already there


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## a_lopa (Apr 30, 2004)

lowering big pieces will be generally in a big tree with big crutches i think its the new school who have trouble getting there head around it


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## Rob Murphy (Apr 30, 2004)

*Old Old School*

Whats with you guys...Whats all this rope nonsense..If ya cant just spike up and bomb everything...why bother??


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## a_lopa (May 2, 2004)

another climbing crew i know that sub doing powerlines were moaning about having to spikeless climb eucs for trims,the small guy who is always thinking how to do it easier either climbs up the back of them,away from side most likely to be seen in the audit or climbs up and then gets the spikes sent up.


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## Rob Murphy (May 2, 2004)

*Poor Gear an training*

Thats probably because...if its like Tassie..they get minimal gear and training.Probably dont use throwlines or a bigshot etc and its all producity based ...so much per trim etc.Here in north Tassie we have so much within the 1 meter clearance of HV thats its only a matter of time before we have bad fires.


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## a_lopa (May 2, 2004)

im hearing you on that we used to do 4m then 7m clearance to the sky there is only 1-3 m now they will simply go back to that after a fire or insurance problems and get hourly rate tenders with all the big companys cutting each others throats to do it, i was getting 100 pr span a few years back making real money but now all the overhang is getting back there its simply not worth it if they suddenly get serious which there known for and want it done to the letter you would be working for less than nothing


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