# When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?



## Greystoke (Oct 1, 2009)

magnus said:


> I have several large Eucalyptus that need to be brought down behind my house and gardens.
> 
> They are heavily weighted, as well as side-leaning, in the same direction; which unfortunately is over a cliff with my house below. I have found that using 3 winches pulling the tree ~170 degrees away from the lean, without cutting a notch to fell the tree, to work well.
> 
> ...



:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:

Man, this sounds scary! You need to post some pics. I have never cut a eucalyptus but I am guessing that could easily barber chair. Cutting a tree without using an undercut is never a good practice, an with a large tree can be very deadly. These are the best pics I could find showing a barber chair:












Be safe pardner!


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## redprospector (Oct 1, 2009)

I've never cut Eucalyptus either, so I guess this is just my opinion................But, I would have to say that it is *NEVER* ok to fell a tree of any size without an undercut. If you're worried about "weakening the tree prematurely", make sure your cables are set high enough and under tension before you start cutting. I don't think that sloped back cut is doing you any good either.
Play it safe, it ain't worth dieing over. 

Andy


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## Meadow Beaver (Oct 1, 2009)

It's not safe at all. Cutting a tree without a face cut will give you little control over where the tree will land as well.


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch? 


When you are in the mood to get hurt BIG TIME!!


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## Hddnis (Oct 1, 2009)

As I've been thinking about this more I can forsee a situation where you cut the tree and it turns and drops along the cliff instead of away from it. Your winches may be enough to make it fall the right direction, but not to hold it once on the ground, or worse yet if it was hanging at the top of the cliff.


Hope this helps you understand what I'm saying. 







Even if the anchor points were spread out you would then run the greater risk of the tree overcoming one and compounding the problem.


Mr. HE


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## matt9923 (Oct 1, 2009)

056 kid said:


> When is it appropriate to NOT use a felling notch?
> 
> 
> When you are in the mood to get hurt BIG TIME!!



yup unless I'm cutting a 3" tree.


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## Hddnis (Oct 1, 2009)

matt9923 said:


> yup unless I'm cutting a 3" tree.




I use the MS 192 on those and cut a notch anyway. Also a backcut. It is just fun, and requires a level of precision that you don't always have to use in bigger trees.


Besides, it can be fun.:hmm3grin2orange:



Mr. HE


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## matt9923 (Oct 1, 2009)

Hddnis said:


> I use the MS 192 on those and cut a notch anyway. Also a backcut. It is just fun, and requires a level of precision that you don't always have to use in bigger trees.
> 
> 
> Besides, it can be fun.:hmm3grin2orange:
> ...



LOL, i sometimes cut in an inch then back cut to give me a little hinge action.


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## Wishie22 (Oct 1, 2009)

No notch = no control is what I was taught. 

Hate to see the tree barber (as stated) and run down the hill on ya.


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## 2dogs (Oct 1, 2009)

Magnus I have quite alot of experience with eucs. They are strong and heavy! The bark on them makes climbing very difficult. A face cut is absolutely needed here as on any tree over 5" or so. To not notch the tree you are asking for trouble because it may split vertically, aka a barberchair. Trying to tear a tree down with equipment is also never a good idea. Any failure in the system leeds to loss of control of the direction of fall. Using a (BIG) winch to aid in keeping control of the tree can work out fine as long as you first face and then back cut the tree.

If you know a competent climber then chunking the tree down may be the best solution. That may cost you some money though. At least dinner and some refreshments!

Posting pics of the job may help but on;y so much information can be gleaned from a picture.

BTW you have a great blog.


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## hammerlogging (Oct 1, 2009)

pop cut: kerf face, back cut, when she pops run like hell.


Stupid.


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## bullbuck (Oct 1, 2009)

Wishie22 said:


> No notch = no control is what I was taught.
> 
> Hate to see the tree barber (as stated) and run down the hill on ya.



:agree2:


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## 056 kid (Oct 1, 2009)

Just back cutting is no fun anyway!


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## Meadow Beaver (Oct 1, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Just back cutting is no fun anyway!



Yep it doesn't take any skill to put your saw on the back of the tree and cut.


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## bullbuck (Oct 1, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Just back cutting is no fun anyway!



but it can increase your pay getting paid by the piece in small timber by upwards of a third to "hack"off trees 16"and smaller that are obviously headed in a certain direction.first your saw must be cutting fast second once you commit you must not stop for anything,i even will check my fuel level before attempting this,it is not safe,i certainly do not condone it.but for a poor starving scab it has made the difference in a good paying day,and just another day in trash many times,mind you these are small trees on anything bigger my cuts match everytime if possible,calculated risk for me,but one cutting near things of value?no way! i would notch a 3"if it were near a home etc.


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## TreeClimber57 (Oct 1, 2009)

You need the notch and hinge to control the fall as other have stated. Dangerous otherwise. Never safe to fell a tree without notch and proper hinge wood, unless it is small enough you can pick the whole tree up and carry it.. then you can control the fall perhaps by simply your own strength. Be safe..


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## fmaglin (Oct 1, 2009)

I've had to pull a few trees and the way I do it is I rig up my pulling line usually as high as I can place it. I have the winch operator put just enough tension on my line to keep the tree from falling in a direction I don't want it to go; I then notch for the direction I want it to fall. As I begin my back cut I watch the kerf. When it just starts to open up I stop sawing and signal the winch operator to start winchin. I've been pretty successful using this procedure.


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## gallegosmike (Oct 1, 2009)

Anything over 8", I use a shallow notch in the face of the tree. Over 12", do a felling notch. Over 24" and Ive only done a few. I use a V notch to make the tree goes where I need it to!


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## dingeryote (Oct 1, 2009)

gallegosmike said:


> Anything over 8", I use a shallow notch in the face of the tree. Over 12", do a felling notch. Over 24" and Ive only done a few. I use a V notch to make the tree goes where I need it to!



Birdsbeak notch deep. Cable. Tractor. Back cut just to make a hinge, and fold it over

If no room for a tractor, I would be leery of using a winch.
Once the thing starts over and the cable goes slack, there would be a hell of a shock if the thing started sliding downhill.

Possibly tie it off low, to some sort of anchor, to control any wierdness when it's down and while the winch takes up slack??

No face cut means no control at all. I have watched my cousin cut with no face, and the weight rotating the trunk can go any way it wants, whenever it wants. Creepy scary stuff even on little 24" Red Oaks. I dunno how the production guys keep alive doing that sorta thing.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## CanadianCarGuy (Oct 1, 2009)

What I would do is tie line high up as possible on the tree, and ladder will do the trick most of the time (I've done this a few times with 100foot fir trees). Then attach the line to something that is well anchored. Then using a come along winch the tree back away from the cliff until you see it has changed the lean enough or put enough pressure on it that you can visually notice it. Cut an undercut (just go deep enough so that the hinge will support the weight of the tree, too small and the weight of the tree will collapse on the weakest side under tension), then you can do the backcut two different ways. One is really slow and steady cutting a bit and winching a bit. The wincher must stay with the cutter, otherwise there may be too much weight for the come along or make it more difficult than it should be. Remember not to walk in front of the intended falling direction of the tree if you are winching yourself once it is cut. The other way to cut the backcut would be to put as much tension on the tree as possible and then cut the backcut fast as possible to use the momentum of the bowed over tree as a spring, but this way is pretty hit or miss, but the anchored line will keep the tree from falling backwards. Also remember to put the come along far enough away that the wincher won't get creamed with the tree.


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## tramp bushler (Oct 2, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> but it can increase your pay getting paid by the piece in small timber by upwards of a third to "hack"off trees 16"and smaller that are obviously headed in a certain direction.first your saw must be cutting fast second once you commit you must not stop for anything,i even will check my fuel level before attempting this,it is not safe,i certainly do not condone it.but for a poor starving scab it has made the difference in a good paying day,and just another day in trash many times,mind you these are small trees on anything bigger my cuts match everytime if possible,calculated risk for me,but one cutting near things of value?no way! i would notch a 3"if it were near a home etc.


. For just gun and run , a kerf face isn,t bad , if you have your poop in one sock .... Let the tree start to fall into the kerf then rip the back off ,,,,, .. Yes it is fast , problem is some guys do it with too big a ttree and it kills them .. And there is a tendency to stop looking up ... Thatll get ya killed pretty quick too ......

.... A sloping back cut is never a good thing .. However as has been stated , get your riggin good and tight , actually begin lifting the tree , then put in the face ,, no more than 1/3 rd the dia of the tree . pull a little more , then put in the back cut with 4 or more inches of stump shot .. If you start pulling early , and pull as you cut , you should be able to lift ther tree , before it is ready to take off from the stump ...


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## Humptulips (Oct 2, 2009)

Yea, I've done it and seen it done. There are times when it is waranted, not many but rare occasions. I'll catch it for this I know. To begin with when you are doing this you're not worried about control. You have already decided the tree is going straight down the hill no matter what you do. Think totally rotten on the lower side and straight up and down hillside with a heavy lean. Stick a bar in an inch and it's pinched. So side notch the hell out of it and saw the back up. Better have a fast saw and a good runway. Species is important.

I've seen guys try to knock these things over but I'm not a great fan of it as I've seen a few teepees made and then you are screwed.

As for the diagram just uproot it or break it off if you have the power and you're that scared of it. If it won't break put some tension on it and get in there and cripple it a little but use a small undrcut. Then get out of the way and break it the rest of the way off with your drum.


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## Brushwacker (Oct 3, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> :jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:
> 
> Man, this sounds scary! You need to post some pics. I have never cut a eucalyptus but I am guessing that could easily barber chair. Cutting a tree without using an undercut is never a good practice, an with a large tree can be very deadly. These are the best pics I could find showing a barber chair:
> 
> ...



I had about an 25" oak leaning hard into a wind that I thought I could get away without a notch and I just undercut it about 1/3 through then just got into the back cut and it barberchaired backwards. Had the saw pinched , I let go,stepped back and most of a few to several thousand pound tree trunk climbed up about 12 feet of the wood holding and slammed down onto the ground where I originally was cutting in about 1 second, just missed me,thank God, caught the big old tough Homelite enough to bend the bar and if I remember right cracked the clutch cover. Ya be careful , most of the barber chairs I remember seeing were bigger trees then in the picture and the trunks weren't held up, they just split or cracked off the wood holding and slammed back down like in 1 second.


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## bullbuck (Oct 3, 2009)

Brushwacker said:


> I had about an 25" oak leaning hard into a wind that I thought I could get away without a notch and I just undercut it about 1/3 through then just got into the back cut and it barberchaired backwards. Had the saw pinched , I let go,stepped back and most of a few to several thousand pound tree trunk climbed up about 12 feet of the wood holding and slammed down onto the ground where I originally was cutting in about 1 second, just missed me,thank God, caught the big old tough Homelite enough to bend the bar and if I remember right cracked the clutch cover. Ya be careful , most of the barber chairs I remember seeing were bigger trees then in the picture and the trunks weren't held up, they just split or cracked off the wood holding and slammed back down like in 1 second.



reminds me of a story,easily an 90'white fir i was wedging off the fence on a more than likely?too windy day to be cutting?50 plus m.p.h.,anyways had the tree in motion headed due west,in my mind had this one down.no,not the case,i shirt you not that tree was blown by the wind from a 20degree tilt back the other wayslabbed out of the facecut backwards up 20 feet or so?kicked off the chair hit the tree i had basically fallen below,for it was the only thing big enough to get behind in such an unforseen panic.whew that was a good one!my notch was clean thought i had it dialed,that was my first mistake


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## yooper (Oct 3, 2009)

tarzanstree said:


> :jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:
> 
> Man, this sounds scary! You need to post some pics. I have never cut a eucalyptus but I am guessing that could easily barber chair. Cutting a tree without using an undercut is never a good practice, an with a large tree can be very deadly. These are the best pics I could find showing a barber chair:
> 
> ...



I bet thats recommended by 4 out of 5 dentists


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## matt9923 (Oct 3, 2009)

yooper said:


> I bet thats recommended by 4 out of 5 dentists



good canidate for a face transplant.


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## bullbuck (Oct 3, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> . For just gun and run , a kerf face isn,t bad , if you have your poop in one sock .... Let the tree start to fall into the kerf then rip the back off ,,,,, .. Yes it is fast , problem is some guys do it with too big a ttree and it kills them .. And there is a tendency to stop looking up ... Thatll get ya killed pretty quick too ......
> 
> .... A sloping back cut is never a good thing .. However as has been stated , get your riggin good and tight , actually begin lifting the tree , then put in the face ,, no more than 1/3 rd the dia of the tree . pull a little more , then put in the back cut with 4 or more inches of stump shot .. If you start pulling early , and pull as you cut , you should be able to lift ther tree , before it is ready to take off from the stump ...


i agree,its not a good idea to gun and run,and it has filled up both of my socks more than once cutting that way!bad practice...its funny but i have had trees slab more with a match cut(two cuts)because of the sudden jerk when the kerf closes,when i one cut trees typically peel of the stump no sudden stop,and i got to where i can control them just a bit by cutting either one side or the other of the minislab,i really should quit doing that,not rel safe


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## 056 kid (Oct 3, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> i agree,its not a good idea to gun and run,and it has filled up both of my socks more than once cutting that way!bad practice...its funny but i have had trees slab more with a match cut(two cuts)because of the sudden jerk when the kerf closes,when i one cut trees typically peel of the stump no sudden stop,and i got to where i can control them just a bit by cutting either one side or the other of the minislab,i really should quit doing that,not rel safe



Not safe, bur quick and affective, there are ways to really steer small hardwoods with such techniques, You can almost eliminate wood pull by match cutting off the lean, Lots of old timers around my home parts use such techniques...\

not something that would really seem to pay off in conifer country, but pretty affective for thoes pesky whiteoaks...

Mabe I can draw something up for the heck of it..

Say the specimen tree has no real lean besides some head lean, you could steer the tree by keeping the same amount of wood on each side, then as the kirf closes,(widen the kirf as needed) you can cut one side or the other once the kirf has closed and get the tree to go left or right pretty dramaticly.. keep in mind that where the wood is & how much is there is key to not killing yourself!!!


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## hammerlogging (Oct 3, 2009)

Thats the side band swarp notch!!!!!.

Incerdible diagram.


DO NOT FALL TIMBER THIS WAY.

But it cracks me up, and secretly I'm quite humored by it. Some of our fallers play with it some, I am NOT partaking in the side band swarp notch club. I love swinging them, but the side band swarp notch tree top can actually pull all the way spinning on that remaining holding wood making the crown have an uphill lean- yes it swings on through to the intended lay, but it can break off as its coming around and fall on the cutter. I do not want to be crushed this way. That bypass over the face cut is absurd, say on a 20" dbh stem the face is 3 inches deep and the kerf face goes in a full 8 inches.

Makes me laugh, wish they wouldn't do it, but hell, we aren't working in the woods because we like being told what to do, there's a balance somewhere. Its not that different from dutchmans except they have more of a real hinge and the bypass design is differnt, but somewhere in there is some remarkable similarity considering we're talking old school deep woods Appalachia with modern PNW falling


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## 056 kid (Oct 3, 2009)

I figured you had herd of such practices. I fool around with it some, really because i have seen it done so naturally I wanted to experiment...


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## 056 kid (Oct 3, 2009)

I figured you had herd of such practices. I fool around with it some, really because i have seen it done so naturally I wanted to experiment...



Is that really what it's called? 

the side band swarp notch?


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## stihl sawing (Oct 3, 2009)

I didn't think there ever was a time not to use a felling notch. I will cut a small notch on little pecker poles.


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## slowp (Oct 6, 2009)

stihl sawing said:


> I didn't think there ever was a time not to use a felling notch. I will cut a small notch on little pecker poles.



When pruning rose bushes and cutting blackberries and such. A humboldt would be hard to do on the smaller blackberries and rose bushes.
I think that the double notched side swarping siwash cut would do for most roses.


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## 2dogs (Oct 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> When pruning rose bushes and cutting blackberries and such. A humboldt would be hard to do on the smaller blackberries and rose bushes.
> I think that the double notched side swarping siwash cut would do for most roses.



True but don't forget your axe and wedges.


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## slowp (Oct 6, 2009)

2dogs said:


> True but don't forget your axe and wedges.



The wedges must not clash with the color of the roses.


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## stihl sawing (Oct 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> When pruning rose bushes and cutting blackberries and such. A humboldt would be hard to do on the smaller blackberries and rose bushes.
> I think that the double notched side swarping siwash cut would do for most roses.


That's what the hedge trimmer is for.lol


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## bullbuck (Oct 6, 2009)

i sideswarp my roses with a double swishel sideswap on the lowside,until the hedge trimmers get hung up,then i exit using the patented flying dutchman technique:greenchainsaw:


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## 2dogs (Oct 6, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> i sideswarp my roses with a double swishel sideswap on the lowside,until the hedge trimmers get hung up,then i exit using the patented flying dutchman technique:greenchainsaw:



Show off. Let's see it on youtube.


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## bullbuck (Oct 6, 2009)

2dogs said:


> Show off. Let's see it on youtube.


i would if i could get this damn rose bush off of me!


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## 056 kid (Oct 6, 2009)

Seems like you fellers are pokin a bit of fun at the east coast timber faller's dialog..


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## bullbuck (Oct 6, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Seems like you fellers are pokin a bit of fun at the east coast timber faller's dialog..


i can only speak for myself,but i do not know the dialogue of the east coast,and am not playing on that...rather i am just poking fun in general...lifes too short to get all serious and ####!


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## 056 kid (Oct 6, 2009)

bullbuck said:


> i can only speak for myself,but i do not know the dialogue of the east coast,and am not playing on that...rather i am just poking fun in general...lifes too short to get all serious and ####!



Aint it!


I myself have a hard time understanding alot of the older cutters myself, never herd of a side band swarp notch either, just seen the actual deal..


I can hear the old boys talkin about it now though... man they got some native draw to em!!!


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## slowp (Oct 6, 2009)

056 kid said:


> Seems like you fellers are pokin a bit of fun at the east coast timber faller's dialog..



Nope. Swarp is/was a common term in this valley, used by the descendants of the original Euro folk, who came here from back there somewhere. There's a lot who migrated here from East Tennessee. And West Virginia. This part of the valley was called The Big Bottom. We have the Big Bottom (formerly a tavern, now upgraded for the tourii) Grill. .

Siwash is a logging term that is quite common when working with yarder logging. 

So, just swarp your mind clear of any misconceptions and enjoy the linguistical stuff.


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## 056 kid (Oct 6, 2009)

slowp said:


> Nope. Swarp is/was a common term in this valley, used by the descendants of the original Euro folk, who came here from back there somewhere. There's a lot who migrated here from East Tennessee. And West Virginia. This part of the valley was called The Big Bottom. We have the Big Bottom (formerly a tavern, now upgraded for the tourii) Grill. .
> 
> Siwash is a logging term that is quite common when working with yarder logging.
> 
> So, just swarp your mind clear of any misconceptions and enjoy the linguistical stuff.



You bet haha.

thanks for the learnin sesh!


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## magnus (Oct 7, 2009)

*Photos*

Wow, thanks for the great feedback. I had a chance to get online a day early this week, so here I am....with photos and a diagram. Tomorrow i walk to the city and will use the library to check online. 

I bought my MS180 2 years ago, that was the first time I ever used a chainsaw in my life. Not opposed to sawing, just never had a need. Anway the manual came in Portuguese, since i live on a portuguese island...and i do not speak portuguese...so i figured out how to work it myself and proceeded to cut an acre of jungle. mainly incenso and acatia trees spread over a 45 degree mountainside. at the time there was not internet so i could not get online to get an english manual or ask questions.
i made a lot of mistakes, but now i KNOW why i do NOT do certain things, that I now have read about. Now I bought a MS660 for the larger euks, although i did drop a 130 cm tree with my 35 bar. landed in my bathroom when the winch snapped! Anyway, on to the problem at hand.

There were a lot of posts, so let me try to make sense of some of the common ideas.

basically, ALWAYS use a notch.

also the tree has a diameter of 75 cm.

the "pro" i hired to fell the two trees that landed in our garden was recommended to me, so i did not check his credentials well. my mistake. on an island of 4000 there are few pros at anything other than fishing and dairy.

you need photos to make sense of what i am talking about...so here they are.

first, the last euk i cut using "my method". the trunk is uphill of the stump against the natural lean and weight, nearly identical to present problem tree.






now the problem tree.


















or all the photos are on photobucket here
http://s628.photobucket.com/albums/uu3/magnusflores/

thanks allot for the input, i need help.
trust me, if there were a pro to hire here i would! 
not proud, just can´t find good help these days.


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## 056 kid (Oct 7, 2009)

notch & back cut, then pull her over!

good luck!!


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## RRSsawshop (Oct 7, 2009)

056 kid said:


> notch & back cut, then pull her over!
> 
> good luck!!



Yes I agree you don't have any other choice!!!:jawdrop:


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## tramp bushler (Oct 8, 2009)

*Cool*

You get around a bit hey .. I would still put in a small face .. It looks like the wood is fairly brittle , as I mentioned , I would take up a good strain , then put in a small face , not very deep but have your sloping face cut be steep enough so the face won,t totally close as tree falls .. No deeper than 1/4th the diameter of the tree ... At least 4 inches of stump shot .. Back cut higher than the face cut ........

Asd a side note , couldn,t you have found a steeper place to live  .. I,m joking , I bet yalls legs and lungs are in very good shape !!!!!!! Be careful ... I really enjoyed your story and pics , Thanks ...


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## hammerlogging (Oct 8, 2009)

man thats a lot of side lean. If you can risk it, you can try to pull it around with a face making as wide a hinge as possible then back cutting leaving the uphill side of the hinge fatter than the under the lean side, but that hinge is still likely to pop as soon as the tree stsrts falling. I fthis type of mistake is a really bad thing, you need a climber to get some of that crown weight off before you try and fall it.


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## magnus (Oct 15, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> You get around a bit hey .. I would still put in a small face .. It looks like the wood is fairly brittle , as I mentioned , I would take up a good strain , then put in a small face , not very deep but have your sloping face cut be steep enough so the face won,t totally close as tree falls .. No deeper than 1/4th the diameter of the tree ... At least 4 inches of stump shot .. Back cut higher than the face cut ........
> 
> Asd a side note , couldn,t you have found a steeper place to live  .. I,m joking , I bet yalls legs and lungs are in very good shape !!!!!!! Be careful ... I really enjoyed your story and pics , Thanks ...



i used to love travelling, but now i am trying to settle down. 

legs are aching all the time! but we are fit and healthy...the beer gut is gone after 3 years here!

carrying 20 lbs of machine up and down these mountains is tiring, but at least i get a nice view to keep me motivated.

as far as cutting this tree, it sounds like your summation is in line with all that i have read. is stump shot the same as hinge? how much higher should the back cut be?


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## tramp bushler (Oct 15, 2009)

Stump shot is the height of the back cut above the face ..... It helps keep the tree from sliding back past the stump .......


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