# Directional felling



## rebootuk (Dec 27, 2009)

Hi, I'm in need of some information if anyone can help. It's been a while since I took all my courses for felling but during that time my instructor showed us how to fell a tree in the opposite direction of the lean forcing it over, it incorporated a 45 degree cut? to the side? Can anyone tell me how this is done or have some diagrams? Thanks.


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## Metals406 (Dec 27, 2009)

rebootuk said:


> Hi, I'm in need of some information if anyone can help. It's been a while since I took all my courses for felling but during that time my instructor showed us how to fell a tree in the opposite direction of the lean forcing it over, it incorporated a 45 degree cut? to the side? Can anyone tell me how this is done or have some diagrams? Thanks.





You'd have to draw a picture of what you're trying to describe. . . Sounds like a type of "Walking Dutchman" though.

This would be similar in application:

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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uvVY5jaY9jg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uvVY5jaY9jg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## rebootuk (Dec 27, 2009)

That's not the way he did it but it looks the part. My instructor put a wedge cut in the direction of felling and before the back cut he seemed to put an angled cut below the wedge cut at the side with the nose and put a breaker bar in and then the back cut, then pushing it over with the breaker bar. I'll try to make a drawing of what I can remember. Thanks for the vid's.


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 27, 2009)

You talking about a snipe on the stump or on the log?


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## rebootuk (Dec 27, 2009)

It could be, id know it if i saw it, if u pardon the pun.


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 27, 2009)

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## Metals406 (Dec 27, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> You talking about a snipe on the stump or on the log?



A snipe in the face (on the log or stump) wouldn't effect the tree trying to fall opposite the lean. . . That requires a Dutchman or wedging.

From his description, it sounds like a type of Dutchman, I just don't know which one? There are a lot of Dutchman techniques out there.


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 27, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> A snipe in the face (on the log or stump) wouldn't effect the tree trying to fall opposite the lean. . . That requires a Dutchman or wedging.
> 
> From his description, it sounds like a type of Dutchman, I just don't know which one? There are a lot of Dutchman techniques out there.



I don't know, I'm not quite sure what he was trying to say.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 27, 2009)

As an official (admonished...) directional faller, at least often enough (most of the day, every day), I'll try.

All he did is face it where he wants it to go (or lightly compensated due to side lean) and bore in behind the hinge. Established a hinge, cut toward a back strap. He inserted a lever instead of wedges cause it must be smallish wood. Then he cut his strap probably at a angle just cause, could have been level, doesn't matter, then levered the tree over with his bar. If you want more explanation, ask and I'll fill you in. Oh, and I have to say, bore cutting is dangerous, as are chainsaws, and driving to work, and everything else.

Sorry folks, this is europe. I don't think a dutchman flies over there. I'm hope people have these tree swingin skills over there, but I'm pretty darn sure they're not teaching it formally. 

cuttin heli wood tomorrow, and the next day, and barring one or two days to keep our mudded out loggers busy, pretty much every day for the next 3 weeks. Sweet. I'll be sure to swing a dutchman for each of ya'll, and more than one open faced bore felling for my pinko commie socialist european co-horts!!! (by the way, thats what the most valuable wood gets, no matter what!!!!)


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## rebootuk (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry Hammerlogging your wrong on the idea and I am fully trained and experienced in my field and yes we do things here to a high saftey standard. As for the cut I have drawn a picture to the best of my ability and maybe it will help. I might see if I can make contact with my old instructor, I'm going back to the college in Jan.


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## oregoncutter (Dec 28, 2009)

*hmm!*

I've only made a living cutting timber since I was about 20 so 11 years or so now, I know alot of guys on here are more professional than me and may get what You are asking, and explaining here. Is the face what You are calling the wedge cut? and are You trying to swing the tree 180 degrees and if so why? Is that bore cut on both sides and is it supposed to be down below the face and back cut that far? In my experience going far opposite of the lean I utilize the tools I have I use a my own version of a dutchman, wedges, and have had jobs in good timber where I have had to use jacks to fall em inlead. From experience there are some trees that are nearly impossible or unfeasable to fall opposite the lean with out the use of tools other than just You're saw.


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## SINGLE-JACK (Dec 28, 2009)

*Get these! It's the most you can learn about felling by reading!*
Good diagrams - good reading - good price. 
(Click on the each pic to link to the supplier.)


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 28, 2009)

That looks like something a weekend warrior would do.


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## rebootuk (Dec 28, 2009)

That's really gonna help.


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## bullbuck (Dec 28, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> That looks like something a weekend warrior would do.


:agree2:


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## rebootuk (Dec 29, 2009)

ok ok ive had a bad week. I get the gag.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 29, 2009)

rebootuk said:


> Sorry Hammerlogging your wrong on the idea and I am fully trained and experienced in my field.



K bud.


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## lostcoastland (Dec 29, 2009)

*Weekend Warrior...lol*

Go try it. ( Rebootuk ) The cut that is.


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> That looks like something a weekend warrior would do.


./.,

.

. Now , be nice .


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

Yup ..Were loggin now ..


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

Why do people have to make soo many weird cuts to fall a tree ... Some people make it alot harder than it needs to be ... .. People who advocate sloping back cuts have been smoking pot ......:censored:


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## clearance (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Why do people have to make soo many weird cuts to fall a tree ... Some people make it alot harder than it needs to be ... .. People who advocate sloping back cuts have been smoking pot ......:censored:



Lots of fallers here smoke pot, and thats just like drinking coffee to them, no big deal. The sloping backcut is way beyond smoking pot, its deranged. I have seen it many times along forestry service roads in this province. Weekend warrior wannabees, no doubt.


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 30, 2009)

This is what it should look like:


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

*Their not the same*

Smokin dope and drinking coffee are not the same .... Nope . No way ....
But your 100% right on the slopeing back cuts along forest service roads ........My point was that you have to be thinking backwards to think a slopeing backcut somehow consistently improves the outcome of stickin a saw into a tree ...........


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 30, 2009)

Hey Tramp you still got any of those Ace 394's?


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> This is what it should look like:


.

.

. Hey , thats cool , cutting snow white trees at night . :jawdrop: 
Good diagram tho .


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> ...



Not bad for just using paint.


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## clearance (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Smokin dope and drinking coffee are not the same .... Nope . No way ....
> But your 100% right on the slopeing back cuts along forest service roads ........My point was that you have to be thinking backwards to think a slopeing backcut somehow consistently improves the outcome of stickin a saw into a tree ...........



Never said they were, just said pot is used as coffee is used, same deal to some, but, no, its not the same. I used to drink beer like it was pop, not the same either. The sloping backcut is crazy, I have seen it many places, along with some funny undercuts as well, but, if they knew better, they would do better. I have got better at falling, and bucking, thanks to the fallers that showed me.


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

I hope I,m not being rude to the original Questioneer ....... If you buy a Husky, Stihl , or Solo , Pro grade saw .they come with a book ... In that book there are diagrams on how to fall a tree . If you just do it the way they show , most trees will hit their lays ... .. If you use plastic falling wedges instead of a steel pry Bar .. Your chain will live ALOT longer and still actually cut .. Also you won,t get shrapnel wounds in your body ... I see all manner of foolishness around here from these non coastal flat landers ,and they will argue till they are blue in the face with a guy who would cut 1 or 2 SHIP loads of timber a year for years till there were no more jobs doing so ......


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## Meadow Beaver (Dec 30, 2009)

For me it boils down to this: I hate seeing poorly cut stumps, I really hate seeing someone make a s****y stump. The way I see it, if you can't drop a tree right, then just give me your chainsaw(s) because you don't deserve it.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 30, 2009)

you've missed the real glory, the hippie speedball, reefer AND coffee.

I know people smole weed while falling, but I don't think its necessary, or good. I also know people who snort pills while falling.... and ...... but I don't work with them. And when I did, I gave them a LOT of space...


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## stuartc44 (Dec 30, 2009)

Hi, Is it a 'split-level' cut your'e talking about?

Thats what we call it over here, only really any good on smaller trees with back lean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZz7EylX3Ck


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## Metals406 (Dec 30, 2009)

stuartc44 said:


> Hi, Is it a 'split-level' cut your'e talking about?
> 
> Thats what we call it over here, only really any good on smaller trees with back lean.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZz7EylX3Ck



Well, I'd say that's the cut the OP was trying to describe. . . And I agree, only useful on pecker-poles.

I'd almost rather use the 1/4 cut than a split-level though.


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## Burvol (Dec 30, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> you've missed the real glory, the hippie speedball, reefer AND coffee.
> 
> I know people smole weed while falling, but I don't think its necessary, or good. I also know people who snort pills while falling.... and ...... but I don't work with them. And when I did, I gave them a LOT of space...



Speed balls, LOL. Joe your a maniac. I can imagine some guys I know that where my age in the late 70's into the 80's cutting logs. Scary fun to them back then. 

You wanna tie one on, or just drink two beers, smoke a whole J or just a little toke, that's fine it's your choice after work. You stick #### up your nose or smoke white crap and it's over for your woods career. Just wait, it will fold. I have cut logs with two of those guys, and their hard drug addiction won. No shows, late, unsafe, ect. = gonners. Good cutters too. Unfortuanatly I am working this winter with some loggers that have drug issues. It's really sad and it pisses me off in the field. That's all I'll say about that. You should be sober at work, and that means no ####ing hangover.

I am guilty of the last one when I use to drink. Anyone I have authority over will get 2 free hangovers, LOL I'm not a ####...been there.


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## bitzer (Dec 30, 2009)

Wow it took that guy in the vid all day to do that. On heavy leaning smaller ones that are leaning back and right and I need them to go forward and left, I'll bore through the face, put a wedge in the back, and cut the straps on each side, cutting the side with the most back lean a little first and pounding the wedge in farther than cut the other side to make it go. Definetely faster than that, but thats only when I need to. They use a lot of fuel over there on those small trees...




Sloping backcut stumps are everywhere in Wisconsin. I don't know why they are thought to be such a great idea, but often I see them with no hinge and evidence of the tree falling the opposite of the intended direction.


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## Burvol (Dec 30, 2009)

rebootuk said:


> Sorry Hammerlogging your wrong on the idea and I am fully trained and experienced in my field and yes we do things here to a high saftey standard. As for the cut I have drawn a picture to the best of my ability and maybe it will help. I might see if I can make contact with my old instructor, I'm going back to the college in Jan.



I think they are trying to "Release the Vise" as Steve calls it. 

The Siswell cut, "Cutting your piece of pie" is in close proximity to the bar in your diagram, but it is done differently. It is directly infront of the hinge wood on the uphill side, then down in. You cut the pie shape out then swing the tree. You can see the pie shape from the same angle as your diagram. 

It allows the tree to move forward when swinging, rather than have your uphill holding side be stiff and breaking fiber while swinging. It is truly impressive to watch. I won't hardly swing trees with out it now. Big trees with a decent amount of side lean that have to be wedged are canidates for this too. Wedge _way easier_ when you cut yourself a piece of pie.


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## bitzer (Dec 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> Speed balls, LOL. Joe your a maniac. I can imagine some guys I know that where my age in the late 70's into the 80's cutting logs. Scary fun to them back then.
> 
> You wanna tie one on, or just drink two beers, smoke a whole J or just a little toke, that's fine it's your choice after work. You stick #### up your nose or smoke white crap and it's over for your woods career. Just wait, it will fold. I have cut logs with two of those guys, and their hard drug addiction won. No shows, late, unsafe, ect. = gonners. Good cutters too. Unfortuanatly I am working this winter with some loggers that have drug issues. It's really sad and it pisses me off in the field. That's all I'll say about that. You should be sober at work, and that means no ####ing hangover.
> 
> I am guilty of the last one when I use to drink. Anyone I have authority over will get 2 free hangovers, LOL I'm not a ####...been there.




The drugs usually do win. I quit the hard stuff years ago. I barely even drink anymore. It used to be a hangover and wake & bake all day everyday, get the shakes around lunch time, race to the gas station or liquor store as soon as I'm off the job and suck it up all night accompanied with what ever else was around to smoke or put up my nose. I've got buddies from high school still doing the same things. In and out of jail, can't hold a job, kids with different girls... One day I just said enough is enough, got sick of it. I had to cut all ties with my pals because its a trap. No rehab, just quit. Its been about 7 years now and I'll have an occaisonal beer or three, but nothing close to the old days. I am still amazed that I lived though some of that. Its too bad when you have guy that is a good guy when he is sober, but he just can't get away from the stuff. A good friend of mine that stood up in my wedding is one of them. He's been in and out of jail for years and I haven't talked to him in a long time. Just a waste.


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## Metals406 (Dec 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I think they are trying to "Release the Vise" as Steve calls it.
> 
> The Siswell cut, "Cutting your piece of pie" is in close proximity to the bar in your diagram, but it is done differently. It is directly infront of the hinge wood on the uphill side, then down in. You cut the pie shape out then swing the tree. You can see the pie shape from the same angle as your diagram.
> 
> It allows the tree to move forward when swinging, rather than have your uphill holding side be stiff and breaking fiber while swinging. It is truly impressive to watch. I won't hardly swing trees with out it now. Big trees with a decent amount of side lean that have to be wedged are canidates for this too. Wedge _way easier_ when you cut yourself a piece of pie.



Burvol, you working today? If you had time, I'd love to see some pics/video of this Siswell cut in action. . . Sounds like an interesting technique.


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

hammerlogging said:


> you've missed the real glory, the hippie speedball, reefer AND coffee.
> 
> I know people smole weed while falling, but I don't think its necessary, or good. I also know people who snort pills while falling.... and ...... but I don't work with them. And when I did, I gave them a LOT of space...


.



. Ya and I can show you head stones and accident pics of guys who smoked pot while cutting and were crankin ..... LOTS OF THEM .. I can find guys still alive and introduce you to them ,who are just shells anymore ,who got smashed while high or crankin .........If someone can,t do the job pretty much naturally , they can,t do the job .....................Even too much coffee isn,t good ....


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

bitzercreek1 said:


> Wow it took that guy in the vid all day to do that. On heavy leaning smaller ones that are leaning back and right and I need them to go forward and left, I'll bore through the face, put a wedge in the back, and cut the straps on each side, cutting the side with the most back lean a little first and pounding the wedge in farther than cut the other side to make it go. Definetely faster than that, but thats only when I need to. They use a lot of fuel over there on those small trees...
> :agree2: He also way needs to sharpen that Solo .He left such a high stump ... I would have just slope cut the whole stump , shot the butt away from the intended direction of fall which would have thrown the head of the tree to the intended direction and let it go . Would have hit the same lay but would have taken a few seconds ..... But then I,m also a Pre Comercial Tree thinner .... Most little stuff , if you slide the butt off the stump away from the desired direction of fall it will go where you want it to ...And it will be done in a few seconds instead of all that time .......Hi
> 
> 
> ...


.....


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## tramp bushler (Dec 30, 2009)

Blitz .. I definatly learned something from you today ... I honestly never thot about boreing all the way thru the heart and out the back cut , setting a wedge then cutting the sides ....... I,m gonna use that trick ... I have to make real low stumps where I am now , and that trick will work well for me ... Thank you ... That is a good / safe /productive technique .


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## lostcoastland (Dec 30, 2009)

*sloping back cuts*

on the sloping cut thing..... must be like a pocket to stick a bar so the end doesnt hit on the ground before you get a good jack on the tree like u might with a perpendicular cut. nice. got it. now just need to find a tree to try it on...seems like it mite be a two person job but sounds effective...


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## Burvol (Dec 30, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Burvol, you working today? If you had time, I'd love to see some pics/video of this Siswell cut in action. . . Sounds like an interesting technique.



I'll take some pictures of one or two tommorow. Today I finished my day with one in a 3 bushel Fir that was being directionaly fell with wedges, not the dutchman. It's hard to explain or believe until you cut logs for a while, then use it. Most would argue or deny it's use. I swear it's a cool deal. Just not for all trees.


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## hammerlogging (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Blitz .. I definatly learned something from you today ... I honestly never thot about boreing all the way thru the heart and out the back cut , setting a wedge then cutting the sides ....... I,m gonna use that trick ... I have to make real low stumps where I am now , and that trick will work well for me ... Thank you ... That is a good / safe /productive technique .



TRADER!!!! thats samll diameter timber directional felling and you are waaayyy too cool for that nonsense!!!! It works well. After boring through the face, to clip the tabs, I do one side like a back cut and then the other, rather than standing behind and clipping, such small wood its easy to get the whole hinge. I only do this sometimes, its faster to bore through, place wedge in side, and clip the back.

Just kidding about being a trader, its just cause all the "i hate bore cutters" talk.

I only mentioned the hippie speedball because of all the pot and coffee talk, and it makes me laugh- I worked for a carpenter once, it was his term, made me laugh.

I agree with Burvol, a little understanding is sensible, but idiots need to grow the #### up. It'd be nice if we all got to work with sensible, professional people all the time, unfortunately they're hard to come by.


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## bullbuck (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Blitz .. I definatly learned something from you today ... I honestly never thot about boreing all the way thru the heart and out the back cut , setting a wedge then cutting the sides ....... I,m gonna use that trick ... I have to make real low stumps where I am now , and that trick will work well for me ... Thank you ... That is a good / safe /productive technique .



that is a good idea,you can still keep your cuts flush that way to produce a clean butt log


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## wvlogger (Dec 30, 2009)

MMFaller39 said:


> That looks like something a weekend warrior would do.



id rep yah on that but i am all out


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## Metals406 (Dec 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> I'll take some pictures of one or two tommorow. Today I finished my day with one in a 3 bushel Fir that was being directionaly fell with wedges, not the dutchman. It's hard to explain or believe until you cut logs for a while, then use it. Most would argue or deny it's use. I swear it's a cool deal. Just not for all trees.



Right on! Looking forward to it. 

I've been cutting trees for about 20 years now, so I know all things are possible. I remember seeing my first Dutchman when I was logging, and disbelieving the sawyer before he showed me it could be done. It was after that that I wanted to be a timberfaller.


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## Burvol (Dec 30, 2009)

Metals406 said:


> Right on! Looking forward to it.
> 
> I've been cutting trees for about 20 years now, so I know all things are possible. I remember seeing my first Dutchman when I was logging, and disbelieving the sawyer before he showed me it could be done. It was after that that I wanted to be a timberfaller.



That's what I was refering to. Cut with out it, then use it after you see it. I don't do it on everything, but I have incorperated it into my swing cut and certain trees that are being wedged. It's simple. It just makes the tree move more and I'm sure it could break a big one off if overdone or not used right.


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## Metals406 (Dec 30, 2009)

Burvol said:


> That's what I was refering to. Cut with out it, then use it after you see it. I don't do it on everything, but I have incorperated it into my swing cut and certain trees that are being wedged. It's simple. It just makes the tree move more and I'm sure it could break a big one off if overdone or not used right.



I agree totally. . . Everything has a time and a place. I also believe it's good to have a "Leatherman" of skills at ones disposal.


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## 056 kid (Dec 30, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Why do people have to make soo many weird cuts to fall a tree ... Some people make it alot harder than it needs to be ... .. People who advocate sloping back cuts have been smoking pot ......:censored:



Hay,,

Dont be profiling now, that just wont fly!


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## tramp bushler (Dec 31, 2009)

I do alot of bore cuts . but mostly bucking ..... A siswheel swing cut is an indispensable falling cut ... It helps with every thing .. .............


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## bitzer (Dec 31, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> Blitz .. I definatly learned something from you today ... I honestly never thot about boreing all the way thru the heart and out the back cut , setting a wedge then cutting the sides ....... I,m gonna use that trick ... I have to make real low stumps where I am now , and that trick will work well for me ... Thank you ... That is a good / safe /productive technique .



Hey man I'm glad I could give something back! I've learned and used a lot of western falling techniques used by guys like you on this site. The only thing about that cut is if you cut too far on one side of the wedge or the other it will fall prematurely about 90 degrees from your intended direction. I really only use that when there is not choice and the tree will get hung up or will cross my lay. After you've done it a few times its easy enough and an experienced faller like yourself would have no problem I am sure. 


On western techniques: I still can't picture a siswheel, but I get the gist of it. Trying to figure out where the pie comes out. On a humboldt face is the pie out of the butt or the stump? It seems like it would be the butt. I've done some decent swingin with different kinds of dutchman cuts, but I'd like to give that one a shot. They might work better in hardwood than dutchmens do sometimes. Good to have another tool in bag to choose from.


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## tramp bushler (Dec 31, 2009)

*Humbolts and Siswheels*

Humbolts = the face .comes from the stump ... . That way your log can have a flush butt .. There are only 2 places I have found the Humbolt to not be as safe as a Saginaw face = The face coming out of the butt log . . .. Never use a humbolt face in a real loose and crumbly snag . . Sometimes they will split and the front part will fall straight down , with a humbolt it will slide down the face ,kicking the top back ,which can cause it to fold up ,RIGHT ON TOP OF YOU Had it happen to me and was stuck ,couldn,t run as my feet had fell down between the roots of a real bad 50" Hemlock snag God protected me on that snag . My saw was burried under about 3 feet deep pile of chuncks ... some weighed 75 lbs . .
. A very good friend of mine . One of the better fallers I know told me about a year earlier to quit putting humbolt faces in snags .. He explained why. I was at a different camp ,In fact I was at Shoal Cove cuttin for Leslie Cutting ... I had got out of the habit of using Saginaw faces on my snags .. Never again tho .
.
.
. The other place is really for the professional only . But it is an important technique .. When you need to push a tree with a driver .But one you rock into it then go fall the tree and you are on steep ground or bluffy ground like where Hammer is cutting . as the driver is well above you , and behind you and is fell into the larger tree you need to face and back cut and maybe even wedge over . You NEVER USE A HUMBOLT FACE IN THE DRIVER TREE!!! reason = as Hammer was writeing about how the humbolt face lets the tree slide down off the stump sooner ( in his situation he needed the trees he was falling to do that )... With a driver , you want it to stay on the stump as long as it can so you can run for your life and get out from under it before it gets you ....... This is a Southeast Alaska trick... It is so much safer than a humbolt face for this situation as to make the humbolt face dangerous in comparison .....
. Of course , with drivers , always use a good 2-4" stump shot ...


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## tramp bushler (Dec 31, 2009)

*Siswheels*

.. The Siswheel swing cut is a bore cut that gets cut in the stump of the tree at the back or inside of the face and on the side of the stump you are pulling the top towards .... Put in the face . then vertically bore in to the heart or at least to the amount of your holding wood .. -------Obviously If you have to pull the tree around you will be cutting off all or almost all your holding wood on the low side .. Generally 2 kerfs is about all you need , and in Alaska is about all you get , but I have taken a 2" piece out before .. It lets the holding wool move forward with the tree as it falls and there by stays attached to the tree longer , which pulls the tree over further .. ... Sometimes I use it , then saw it off quick if the tree is coming around too fast ..


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## tramp bushler (Dec 31, 2009)

With some brittle or frozen trees if you make a verticle bore cut about 2" back from the siswheel it will let your holding wood flex better and will work out ..As with a frozen stump sometimes the holding wood is almost useless .. Sometimes it works better than nothing ,and can save driving a bunch of wedges ...


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## bitzer (Dec 31, 2009)

tramp bushler said:


> .. The Siswheel swing cut is a bore cut that gets cut in the stump of the tree at the back or inside of the face and on the side of the stump you are pulling the top towards .... Put in the face . then vertically bore in to the heart or at least to the amount of your holding wood .. -------Obviously If you have to pull the tree around you will be cutting off all or almost all your holding wood on the low side .. Generally 2 kerfs is about all you need , and in Alaska is about all you get , but I have taken a 2" piece out before .. It lets the holding wool move forward with the tree as it falls and there by stays attached to the tree longer , which pulls the tree over further .. ... Sometimes I use it , then saw it off quick if the tree is coming around too fast ..



Hey thanks for the explaination! I meant where does the piece come out when using a humboldt face. I think Burvol mentioned this in a previous thread, I just couldn't picture it. I've got it now. I use humboldts most of the time. I cut a lot of dead and hazard trees and I think they get debris moving farther away from me faster. There is also a lot more that you can do with a tree with a humboldt I think and I am sure you would agree. Easier to swing, make the butt jump farther, get the butt moving faster or slower, etc, but you already know that. I just gotta get more guys this side of the rockies to believe me. That and using longer bars. Thanks again! I'll have to give that a try.


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## tramp bushler (Jan 1, 2010)

Blitz ; I see you run a big bore 460 . How much of a bump up was it .??. My 460 at a minimun needs new rings and I was thinking about putting a bb top end on it ..


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## Meadow Beaver (Jan 1, 2010)

You should just go with a modified stock top end.


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## bullbuck (Jan 1, 2010)

cool,hey im fixing to put a bb rebuild on my 460,any comments good,bad,where to buy etc.?


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## tramp bushler (Jan 1, 2010)

If I can gain a half dozen ccs that would be preferable ..


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## Meadow Beaver (Jan 1, 2010)

I had 2 460 BB kits I tried, I didn't like them. First one I had a problem with the exhaust port, and the second one I had ran ok but it lacked the rpm's I expected.


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## bitzer (Jan 2, 2010)

tramp bushler said:


> Blitz ; I see you run a big bore 460 . How much of a bump up was it .??. My 460 at a minimun needs new rings and I was thinking about putting a bb top end on it ..



Hey Tramp,

I was in a hurry the other day and totally missed your first response on when to use humboldts and not. Very good info. Glad you're still alive after that one. I will keep that in mind for future reference. I've had some trees that I suspected to be rotten that I will use a conventional on. Also good to know on a driver tree. I also do a lot of selective cutting and thinnings in hardwood forests aside from lot clearings so I do get into the occaisional snag that I need to to knock out. I've only ever put a conventional in a driver, tho I'm not sure why, guess now I do. Thanks again.


On the 460BB, mine is from Baileys. I also had a cheap one from fleabay that caught a ring after 15 tanks or so. The one from fleabay had a piston that was way too tight and looking back I never should have run it. It also had a very high and square exhaust port. I didn't degree it, but guessing from looking at other saws it was over 180 degrees stock. I ran it stock first to see how it did and it went to hell on me before I got a chance to port it. Lesson learned there. 

The Baileys kit is a lot better quality. There are few casting marks and all in all it is pretty clean from imperfections. The piston and rings also look good too. Baileys also warranties them for a year or so and I believe they would take care of any problem you would have. The only problem with the Baileys kit is that the intake and exhaust ports are small. The transfers look fine tho. I ran it stock for a while and then ported it. For me, I like it. The saw (powerhead itself, 3/4 wrap, big dawgs, tall clutch cover) only weighs 15lbs. or so. Its got great response and it will pull a 36" bar with full comp thru hardwood pretty well. I have never run a 660, but with the work I've done I would guess it would out run a stock one. The few porting jobs I have done gave those saws at least another 10 to 15ccs in power compared to a stock saw. So at 84cc I would guess it would compete with a 90+cc stock or better. I put my 460bb on a 440 crankcase so jumping from the 71ccs of the 440 to 84ccs made a big difference to me and with its wieght and manueverablility it really is a great all around saw. I believe it was worth my time and I would do it again. 


The arguements against it I have heard are that a 54mm bore is getting way over square for that stroke length so the net increase is only about 5% over the stock 52mm bore, but this was also only speculation by a well known builder on this site. I would guess there is more torque in the larger displacement tho. I have also seen and heard that the 460 oem top end on a 440 has great speed and its worth the power to weight ratio, but they lack in torque compared to a stock 460. To me I thought I could go for the 440bb at 77ccs or get a little more bang for my buck and get the 460bb at 84ccs. The extra work mounting it I believe paid off. The 460 oem top end would require about the same amount of work as the 460bb, but you are getting the extra displacement and saving the cost of the oem. I'm poor so to me BB no brainer! If you are putting a 460bb on a 460 then there is no extra work involved, just bolt it on. 

If you really want a noticable difference I would get the Baileys kit and port it or have it ported. It really has to be degreed I believe to make a great top end out of it. I also got this one about 6 months ago and I know they were making changes and also looking at different prototypes at the time. The ports may be a little larger on them now and I know there was a problem with the squish band on some that had been corrected. All in all I think they are worth it.


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