# Questions on insulating and heating a pole building



## s13rymos (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey guys.. Im gonna be building a 30x40 pole building on my property soon and i was wondering what is the best way to insulate it.. I was thinking something along the lines of spray on insulation or trying to fit foam sheets in somehow.. also would a OWB be sufficient enough to heat both this and my house or would i need a separate heat system for my shop.. any help would be great thanks..


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## Slick (Nov 4, 2009)

An OWB will surely heat that and a house, mine does most of 40x70 building and my house, just size it properly. Insulation for a pole building comes in many varieties...how are you finishing the inside? Alot of guys use the blanket insulation that goes on as you apply the metal walls of the building, not the best insulation but it's something, probably R4-6 or something like that...sheet foam will get you similiar results depending on how thick you go. If your finishing the inside just build walls between the "poles" of the building and use batt insulation between them. 
Mine has the blanket which isn't the greatest but it's something, I'm working my way around with framed walls and R13 in them and it's a huge improvement.


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## modn (Nov 4, 2009)

Typical extruded foam is r-5 per inch of material. I did this in my pole barn and it works great. Works pretty well on the ceiling also.


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 4, 2009)

If I were to do it from scratch, and didn't want to pay thousands for sprayed-on foam, I'd put 2" foam sheet (vertically) around the perimeter underground, put hydronic heat loops under the concrete floor and fill the walls with cellulose. Even if I didn't have an OWB but might get one someday, I'd insulate the floor and put the pipes in it for hot water heat.


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## s13rymos (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for the responses guys.. I dont know if im gonna finish the inside yet.. if i do it wont be for awhile... I might just do the sheets of foam like u guys said and see about putting pipes in the floor for radiant heat off the floor.. i think that should work.. Ill add that i dont have a OWB right now.. we had a taylor a long time ago when i was a kid but the water jacket rusted out so we got rid of it.. im in the market for another one since the design of them has been greatly improved..


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## whiting-5 (Nov 4, 2009)

mine is 55x88 feet i had the insulation guys in my building during the day all areas that you could see light .got spray in. corners, eves pretty much everywhere then went back with 6 inch thick pole barn insulation.it is tight we use it for live music and it even sounds good!


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## pwl (Nov 4, 2009)

Check out www.garagejournal.com. Tons of info and many good people there.


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## MNGuns (Nov 4, 2009)

In my 30x40, I have foam panels between the battens on the walls, and then covered that with 3/8 CDX to protect it and give me something to hang tools and such on. I have yet to insulate the ceiling, but intend to have it sprayed rather than mess with setting in the lumber needed to hang plywood. My shop has it's own wood stove and even on the coldest days it stays as nice as you would expect a shop to be. I'm working out there, not living in it...


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## trialanderror (Nov 4, 2009)

we had our quonset building insulated, we only did 1 inch of sprayfoam. it's all steel. the guy doing it said 1" will take care of 85% of the battle...it wasn't bad to heat, i put a 8ft attic to naturally act as a heat insulator, and keep the heat lower to the floor. 

it's a 50x100 with 22ft tall on center... floor still needs to be poured, i plan on doing pex in the slab. a job for next summer.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 4, 2009)

Spray on insulation is pretty popular here for sheds. It's good stuff, and remarkably tough for what it is. Ice shack technology up on Lake of the Woods for some of the resorts consists of build a floor, frame the sides, panel the inside, put a roof on it, then spray foam the outside and paint over it. I've spent a couple days in one at well below zero, and it stayed plenty toasty.

I'd definitely look into it if you're insulating the whole thing and not planning on finishing it. For a finished shop area, I would probably just stick to regular batt insulation.


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## dingeryote (Nov 4, 2009)

A couple years back when we built our 30x60, spray insulation was not as cost effective as plain old bat insulation and chip board, so we went that route in the seperate shop area of the barn. Ceiling is 20' so we insulated the overhead and partitioned it off as well from the rest of the barn.

Been heating it with a salamander for now. I'm waiting to find a good electric wall mount heater for a good price. I just need to knock the chill down while I'm in the shop working and don't want to leave a burning stove going.
No Boiler here... I don't care for them, but see where they would be great for the application. Toasty warm concrete would be great to work on come winter!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote


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## nrouwhorst (Nov 4, 2009)

*Insulating Pole Barn*

Closed cell polyurethane foam sprayed in a pole barn is your BEST option. The foam will bond your building together, its amazing how much structural integrity it will add to your pole barn. To keep the price relatively inexpensive have the outside walls sprayed with 2" of foam and then blow 15" of fiberglass or cellouse in the attic space, with baffles for ventilation. I've sprayed at least 50 pole barns in the past 7 years and everyone of my customer's can't believe how well the foam works. The foam stops air infiltration which pushes your conditioned air out. Pole barns have many areas were air can get in, small gaps in the sheeting ect. When you have air infiltration with fiberglass the dry trapped air in the fiberglass gets disturbed and your r-values plummet. Because the foam is solid and cellular the trapped air inside the foam isn't effected by outside conditions i.e. cold temperature, wind, or moisture. Not to mention, metal is a very good conductor and is a likely place for condensation. Closed cell polyurethane will stop all moisture penetration and condensation. If you want to do more research on your own check out http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-04 , and http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=1


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## STANG302 (Nov 5, 2009)

nrouwhorst said:


> Closed cell polyurethane foam sprayed in a pole barn is your BEST option. The foam will bond your building together, its amazing how much structural integrity it will add to your pole barn. To keep the price relatively inexpensive have the outside walls sprayed with 2" of foam and then blow 15" of fiberglass or cellouse in the attic space, with baffles for ventilation. I've sprayed at least 50 pole barns in the past 7 years and everyone of my customer's can't believe how well the foam works. The foam stops air infiltration which pushes your conditioned air out. Pole barns have many areas were air can get in, small gaps in the sheeting ect. When you have air infiltration with fiberglass the dry trapped air in the fiberglass gets disturbed and your r-values plummet. Because the foam is solid and cellular the trapped air inside the foam isn't effected by outside conditions i.e. cold temperature, wind, or moisture. Not to mention, metal is a very good conductor and is a likely place for condensation. Closed cell polyurethane will stop all moisture penetration and condensation. If you want to do more research on your own check out http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-04 , and http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=1



Excellent! I will be building a 40x60/80, have not made up my mind yet, next summer. It will be split into living quarters and a shop/storage area for my party rental biz. And finding information on how people have acomplished this in the past is slim to none. That is the best information I've seen on insulating, thanks!

I will have a boiler and radiant heat trough out. If I put 2" of spray in foam on the walls. Would you recomend a second layer of bat in the outside walls for living quarters? 

The shop I'm not worried about. There the readiant heat and light foam on the walls should keep it comfortable.


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## Slick (Nov 5, 2009)

Anyone know if foam can be sprayed over the blanket foam put on pole buildings? I wouldn't mind doing my ceiling but it already has the blanket...


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## STANG302 (Nov 5, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> we had our quonset building insulated, we only did 1 inch of sprayfoam. it's all steel. the guy doing it said 1" will take care of 85% of the battle...it wasn't bad to heat, i put a 8ft attic to naturally act as a heat insulator, and keep the heat lower to the floor.
> 
> it's a 50x100 with 22ft tall on center... floor still needs to be poured, i plan on doing pex in the slab. a job for next summer.



Sorry a little off topic. How do you like your steel quonset? Were did you get yours from? And how much did it run you? 

I've looked at steelmaster and there large buildings realy are not that cost efective over stick built pole buildings. And the fact that I could not easily figure out an easy way to insulate I looked elsewere. 

Now again the sprayed foam is intreging. If it sticks to the steal and seals all the seams and does not detiriourate over time and start falling off. This is making steal quonsit type buildings a viable option again. I'll have to continue some research on this.


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## Taxmantoo (Nov 5, 2009)

For everybody who is thinking of spraying foam and NOT putting wallboard over it (like the guys spraying ceilings), you need to read this:

http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-05


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## trialanderror (Nov 5, 2009)

STANG302 said:


> Sorry a little off topic. How do you like your steel quonset? Were did you get yours from? And how much did it run you?
> 
> I've looked at steelmaster and there large buildings realy are not that cost efective over stick built pole buildings. And the fact that I could not easily figure out an easy way to insulate I looked elsewere.
> 
> Now again the sprayed foam is intreging. If it sticks to the steal and seals all the seams and does not detiriourate over time and start falling off. This is making steal quonsit type buildings a viable option again. I'll have to continue some research on this.




it's not off topic, it's insulation related 

i love it, totally bad ass. Dad's boss had him do a jobsite, and he saw the building, and asked the owner was the story was, said you can have it if you move it, if it doesn't move, it's getting plowed down. So, we moved it. A job it was, but man, it was worth every effort, 2 weeks and gas money. The panels are kinda curved, ribbed you could say. It was galvanized, and we ended up heating every nut with a torch and zapping apart with a cordless drill, naturally that destroyed the gal coating, so we sand blasted the essential overlapping areas, sealed with paint (can't remember the name, have to dig up some paperwork) and quick put it up. after it was up, finished sand blasting and coating. We have our own sand and sandblaster. 472 caddy with a 4 speed running 2 separate 2 stage compressors, also turning a supercharger that forces air in the intakes, and they're serious compressors, caddy has all it can do to run them in granny gear......pumping into 4x500 gal tanks. 

Friend of a friend gave us a deal, ended up costing $7000 to spray, so we did only 1". It was overwhelming how much 1" accomplished. It was so effective, we're not concrned about adding more.

It had a 12" I beam full lenght for the far top center for support, i used that for an attic hoist, then the attic itself sits on top of I beams, so i have a 35ton hoist that floats full width and lenght of the building. Next up is to put a pit in the floor. Off topic that was. 

We were told the building was 50 years old (Not sure how true that holds), but, the steel was in excellent condition, starting to fad and surface rust, but some blasting and painting, and it's to last quite a while in my time. I'm very very satisfied with it. 

Basically i was out the time to move it clean it and assemble it, gas money to move it and blast it, and paint it.

If i came across another one, i'd be on it quicker then stink on ####.


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## STANG302 (Nov 5, 2009)

Was there any isues with the poly bonding to the steel? 

Well thanks, I think you just killed my idea of a pole building. And I have seen these quonsits on craigs list for sail cheap! I may have to keep my eye open or look at one new.


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## trialanderror (Nov 5, 2009)

nope, not a problem. made sure it was super clean, naturally sandblasting does that with zero effort. Then i spray painted it. It was literally a blast to do it drunk  
Needs to be primed.

http://www.sprayfoam.org/uploads/pages/4480/AY%20112.pdf

that should get you started if any more questions.


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## Steve NW WI (Nov 5, 2009)

trialanderror said:


> We were told the building was 50 years old (Not sure how true that holds), but, the steel was in excellent condition, starting to fad and surface rust, but some blasting and painting, and it's to last quite a while in my time. I'm very very satisfied with it.



50 sounds about right. Quonsets were pretty much an invention of WWII, and were popular for a while after the war, until pole sheds came onto the scene. There's many an old quonset around, and most still look fairly good for their age.


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## taylor6400 (Nov 5, 2009)

i built a 32x40 2 years ago. Used the blanket insulation. not the greatest...but i filled up the atic area with cellulose. Doesnt take much to heat it. make sure you have your gaps filled and youl be ok with whatever you choose on the walls. But load her up up top. Also, i used white steel on the ceiling and love it. Its bright and i ran perp to the 4 ft OC trusses and dont have to brace it for insulation. No worries about sag.


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## s13rymos (Nov 6, 2009)

Thats what i was thinking.. Make sure the gaps are filled and i should be alright.. Thanks guys for contributing to this post.. lots of great ideas in here!


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## Streblerm (Nov 7, 2009)

I have a 24X36 pole building with 12" ceilings. Here's what I did/plan to do:

The outside is steel over tyvek, over osb. On the inside I put 2X6 studs horizontally tied to the purlins. I have one inch foam in the bays created by the horizontal studs. I also went down 3' with the foam to insulate the slab.
I have R-13 fiberglass batts in the bays also covered with a vapor barrier on the inside, then another layer of steel siding on the inside. Steel for the ceiling too. 

Eventually I'll get around to blowing fiberglass insulation in the ceiling...but the way it is, I never got below 25 degrees even when it gets into the low single digits for a fair amount of time.

two kerosene wick heaters will keep it in the 60's and I have three garage doors that I still haven't gotten around to putting the seals on yet.

I believe insulating the slab and ceiling will probably give you the most return on investment.

For heat I have a 60K btu radiant tube heater hanging from the ceiling. I was going to do radiant floor heat, but the initial expense coupled with infrequent use made me decide to go with what I have. Some sort of radiant heat is the way to go. When I go out there and turn it on, I immediately feel warm. Once the slab warms up, it doesn't take much to keep it warm.


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## MotorSeven (Nov 7, 2009)

STANG302 said:


> Sorry a little off topic. How do you like your steel quonset? Were did you get yours from? And how much did it run you?
> 
> I've looked at steelmaster and there large buildings realy are not that cost efective over stick built pole buildings. And the fact that I could not easily figure out an easy way to insulate I looked elsewere.
> 
> Now again the sprayed foam is intreging. If it sticks to the steal and seals all the seams and does not detiriourate over time and start falling off. This is making steal quonsit type buildings a viable option again. I'll have to continue some research on this.




I did the quonset route with LQ. I also had the foam sprayed on the LQ walls...it is outstanding and well worth the money. We heat the 500 sq ft of LQ with a 1500 watt cube heater & had the small window unit on only in the evenings for a couple of hrs each day during the summer.

Here is the build thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/97429-truth-about-arched-steel-buildings.html

RD


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## nrouwhorst (Nov 7, 2009)

*Second layer of batt insulation*



STANG302 said:


> Excellent! I will be building a 40x60/80, have not made up my mind yet, next summer. It will be split into living quarters and a shop/storage area for my party rental biz. And finding information on how people have acomplished this in the past is slim to none. That is the best information I've seen on insulating, thanks!
> 
> I will have a boiler and radiant heat trough out. If I put 2" of spray in foam on the walls. Would you recomend a second layer of bat in the outside walls for living quarters?
> 
> The shop I'm not worried about. There the readiant heat and light foam on the walls should keep it comfortable.



2" of closed cell spray foam is all you'll need for the outside walls. However, for the walls that divide the living quarters from the pole barn itself an R-13 batt will be sufficient. Especially if your going to have different zones for different parts of your building.


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## STANG302 (Nov 9, 2009)

> I did the quonset route with LQ. I also had the foam sprayed on the LQ walls...it is outstanding and well worth the money. We heat the 500 sq ft of LQ with a 1500 watt cube heater & had the small window unit on only in the evenings for a couple of hrs each day during the summer..



Thanks, that is exactly what I want to do, loft and all. Though I am looking for something with a bit bigger living space. 

How did you seal your stick built ends to the steal? Spray insulation only? 
How is the insulation holding up? Any problems with it seporating from the steel?


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## Racerboy832 (Nov 9, 2009)

I am always interested in spray foam. Is there any approx price per square foot it cost? I would want closed cell.


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## STANG302 (Nov 9, 2009)

Just got a qoute on a building from steel master. On a two buildings 30x50 $15,000, 40x60 $30,000. Seems a little steep to me and these were clearance prices. I can get stick build for less.


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## s13rymos (Nov 9, 2009)

The quote for my pole building is $16,500 thats a 30x40 14' walls 12x12 door includes concrete floor and site prep..


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## trialanderror (Nov 10, 2009)

MotorSeven said:


> I did the quonset route with LQ. I also had the foam sprayed on the LQ walls...it is outstanding and well worth the money. We heat the 500 sq ft of LQ with a 1500 watt cube heater & had the small window unit on only in the evenings for a couple of hrs each day during the summer.
> 
> Here is the build thread:
> 
> ...



Fun wasn't it?  to take it down at the site I made some scaffolding to drop in the stakes of a dump box on our 1 ton. ended up with a mobile 12'x8' platform. I didn't like the wiggly ones like in your pics. After we got it home and went to put it back up, assembled each 'ring' and then lifted into place with a 3 yard loader, we used a 22ft long truck frame, mounted to the bucket to get the lift height needed, naturally needed a bigger machine (trojan 300). I'll get a pic of mine when im' back at my parents. Each panel of ours was easily over 150#, they're 2 1/2' by 9', and there's 9 1/2 panels per 'ring'....


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## MotorSeven (Nov 10, 2009)

STANG302 said:


> Thanks, that is exactly what I want to do, loft and all. Though I am looking for something with a bit bigger living space.
> 
> How did you seal your stick built ends to the steal? Spray insulation only?
> How is the insulation holding up? Any problems with it seporating from the steel?



I did 6" walls inside and out of the LQ, they are bolted to the slab & strapped to the quonset. I sealed any gaps with the canned foam. 
The installer had a little trouble getting the foam to stick because the quonsets have a ight coating of oil on them when shipped to prevent rust. So I would suggest a quick pressure wash before foam. The insulation is perfect. It was seafoam green, so I sprayed white latex on it. 
For a better loft, I would go another foot or two higher....I'm 6'4 and can't stand "upstairs" unless I am in the center. Or, put the building on a knee wall. 

30x50....$15,000??? NO WAY!. 
I paid $7,900 thru US Building. Stick to your guns and tell them how much you will pay.....they have a lot of room to move on these. Their(all of the quonset mfg's) sales tactics are right out of the "Looser used car salesman in a plaid suit" book. They play games like a bunch of morons. Consider a much larger one and splitting it with someone else....like a 50x100. Ebay actually has really good prices. 

RD


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## nrouwhorst (Nov 10, 2009)

*Price per square foot*



Racerboy832 said:


> I am always interested in spray foam. Is there any approx price per square foot it cost? I would want closed cell.



Its about $1.90 per square foot for 2 inches and $2.70 per square foot for 3 inches.


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