# Do we REALLY want regulatory control?



## treesquirrel (Jan 9, 2010)

OK first, I am not certified. I've thought about it but with my focus being on removals and pruning I have not yet accepted it as a significant business booster.

I am about 70% self taught and to this day have zero incidents worth mentioning. 

The point of my thread is do we really want some kind of government regulation of our industry? Notwithstanding OSHA we currently have a lot of freedom in how we perform work and how we use equipment. A high level of regulation could micro manage our work procedures to a point that we would be under a microscope and if there were ever an incident who knows what decisions could be rendered based on a tunnel vision view of "acceptable" practices.

I get as frustrated as anyone else when I bid a 2k job and get underbid by 50% by bubba and his pickup. I do try to price my services competitively based on what this market will bear without going broke. But it seems there are some individuals that feel regulation is a solution to the fly by nights.

Actually, I'm sure there a dozens of certified Arborists that would consider me a FBN even though I work safely, smart, and have all the right equipment. I also won't do a job that I am ill equipped for. I have colleagues in the biz I refer work to that is outside my ability to do safely. We will join forces regularly to get tough jobs done. A fly by night will look at almost any job and say "yup, we can do that fer ya!". and then proceed to destroy property.

Anyway, while OSHA pretty much is not going to show unless someone loses a limb or life, and ANSI is pretty much just a "guideline" for smaller businesses I don't particularly care for anyone regulating what I do. Once you jump into the realm of working power lines then it is a different story. I'm focused on residential services and I do not undertake work around primary lines and only work around secondaries if the situation is relatively easy to keep hazards to a minimum.

In a manner of speaking I self regulate based on my experience and skill level.

How do you feel about this?


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## Sunrise Guy (Jan 9, 2010)

This topic has been just about beaten into the ground in here. I come from an industry, the tattoo and body piercing biz, that is regulated very little, for the most part. The result: Too many shops have sprung into existence, leading to the pie being sliced too thin, then, for anyone to make a good living. The only ones to make great livings in the tree biz, consistently, are those in bed with governing bodies via sweetheart contracts that most of us do not have the finances to pursue. Strict regulation of the residential/commercial tree work market would help keep the hacks out, but many in here just can't seem to understand that. They would rather rag on and on about the hacks and this has no effect on the prevailing situation.


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## Grace Tree (Jan 9, 2010)

I saw the transportation industry in the the 1970s prior to deregulation. The layers of regs only served to protect the larger companies and that became so ridiculous and transparent that the entire industry was deregulated.
It's not the initial regulation of an industry that's dangerous. It's the influence that larger companies have in controlling reg that may prevent competition from smaller, new start companies. 
This may be a bad example but let's say as an applicator you're required to carry xx amount of insurance specific to that part of your work. Big Tree Company uses it's dollar influence with regulators to increase the requirements for the insurance amounts to the point where it's no longer profitable for you. Big Tree Company can, because they've essentially written the regs for themselves, have high insurance amounts but pool the costs among multiple operators in their company. They've eliminated competition by regulation.
It would probably be more fair to the industry long term to send out goon squads and bust some kneecaps. Regulation usually starts out well intended but ends up being suffocating.
Phil


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## outofmytree (Jan 9, 2010)

Small Wood said:


> I saw the transportation industry in the the 1970s prior to deregulation. The layers of regs only served to protect the larger companies and that became so ridiculous and transparent that the entire industry was deregulated.
> It's not the initial regulation of an industry that's dangerous. It's the influence that larger companies have in controlling reg that may prevent competition from smaller, new start companies.
> This may be a bad example but let's say as an applicator you're required to carry xx amount of insurance specific to that part of your work. Big Tree Company uses it's dollar influence with regulators to increase the requirements for the insurance amounts to the point where it's no longer profitable for you. Big Tree Company can, because they've essentially written the regs for themselves, have high insurance amounts but pool the costs among multiple operators in their company. They've eliminated competition by regulation.
> It would probably be more fair to the industry long term to send out goon squads and bust some kneecaps. Regulation usually starts out well intended but ends up being suffocating.
> Phil



Valid point here SW.

I am pro regulation but I hear your point. I think that it is less a problem with industry regulation than it is with the method of enforcement. I would suggest that the first and most obvious step would be to regulate at local govt level. Require any work on trees over a given size to be subject to the issue of a permit at a nominal value. The only persons able to gain said permit would be those businesses with the appropriate certification. 

I think it is safe to say that the majority of tree professionals want the hacks out of the market. Regulation is *ONE* way of achieving this. I would be really interested to hear of other ideas that could be implemented with a minimum of cost to all.


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## mckeetree (Jan 9, 2010)

treesquirrel said:


> The point of my thread is do we really want some kind of government regulation of our industry?



In a nutshell, yes. The playing field is just too unfair the way things are now for the guys that are seriously trying to make a real business and a real living out of this deal and not some cat just fool assing around.


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## lumberjack333 (Jan 9, 2010)

I'd be happy if they made it a REAL trade... Here in Canada I'd call that a Red Seal trade. Something that would require a three year apprenticeship and 7000hrs of work experience to acquire your ticket. Instead I'd put the qualification standards of this industry somewhere similar to that of roofing, joe blow jumps up on the roof with a hammer and a couple bundles of shingles... looks over and sees you up in a tree. He says, "Hell Mayble, I can do that there trimming for nuthin!" next thing you know hes taken his ladder, propped it up against a tree and hikin up with a chainsaw on his shoulder. But you'd never see Joe pullin wire or running pipe on a big commercial jobsite right? Because you need ticketed qualifications that state "I know these rules, i know this code." Before you can get your hands on something deadly or job-critical (or at least be under the supervision of someone that does.) I just finished my first week of College for the Arborist apprenticeship here in Ontario, and I can say that I'm with a great group of like-minded individuals, the teachers are all very experienced and I've already learned at least one new thing, in each class every day that I didn't know at the beginning of the week. School is great, licenses are great and nobody is every too old to stop learning. The only problem with all of this, is that I'll be coming out of school next winter, educated and qualified to be working in my chosen trade. However nobody out there currently recognizes that qualification because the training is not standardized across Canada, and the trade remains unregulated. There is a whole section on this site dedicated to deaths and casualties of our trade, what do you think the best way to prevent these in the future is? Most of the mistakes made that lead to these deaths are simple things that can easily be taught over two or three winters at college. I say educate and regulate, only then will we be paid what we deserve and cease to be generalized as a group of crazy tree guys that just cut and hack their way through peoples backyards... Thanks to the ladder scrambling, chainsaw shouldering yuppies out there.

Stay safe everyone.



(Not saying anything bad about roofers, its hard honest work and in my opinion is dangerous enough to justify more regulation as well.)


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## Hddnis (Jan 9, 2010)

Every time I've seen regulation it ended up biting the little guys that did the best work first.

Big companies have deep pockets and pay lobbiests big money to make the regulations the way they want them. They always have them rewritten to squeez out any smaller than they are. They drown you in paperwork and meaningless stipulations.

I've seen it happen a couple times in the past and it will happen that way again.

The other thing you see is that regulation won't stop hacks, it just makes them change names and move more often. They work for cash and then they're gone. 




Mr. HE


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## Bermie (Jan 9, 2010)

I've said my bit on this topic before, I'm in the pro regulation camp, for the reasons others have expressed...there are too many landscapers flinging a ladder against a tree and hacking everything at head height holding on with one hand and swinging a 200t with the other and calling it tree work. 

Here is a link to all the UK standardized certificates of competence in tree work. Check them out, to be legal to do tree work you have to pass these assessments. They form the basis of getting qualified, they are the minimum practical standards. http://www.nptc.org.uk/assessment-schedules/
scroll down till you see the chainsaw qualification on the right side


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## D Mc (Jan 9, 2010)

I am pro-certification but anti-regulation. It is protection money. Whenever you pay someone to protect your interests you will lose freedom. 

That is a very good point that Bermie pointed out on the stringent UK regulatory system. They are one of the most regulated countries out there. Just ask them if it has had any affect at all in stopping the hacks or to help stabilize their work through reduced competition of said hacks. 

It has not.

Dave


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## treesquirrel (Jan 9, 2010)

So in support of regulation it seems that a lot of competent business owners will need a grace period to gain the proper certifications. It would be kinda harsh to all of a sudden inform folks they can no longer feed the family or pay the mortgage because they are not certified even thought they have 10 plus yrs in the industry.

And again, how far will it reach. I'd worry about it becoming much much more than a simple license procedure. this is a dangerous biz. every employee that picks up a chainsaw or runs a chipper may be required to be educated in some form of class monitored by the licensing agency. 

On the flip side, I would rather be small and deal with these kinds of rules than to have to keep track of 20-30 emp[employees and all their certs, or training.


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## lxt (Jan 9, 2010)

I dont think you can regulate by Certification??? what certification would be the standard? ISA & TCIA would have a field day lobbying for control.

Line clearance already has a certifying body & is a recognizable trade, though mostly through bargaining units...but none the less it was Unions who helped get this field recognized!

I am in agreement with regulating this field...but, it would have to be done at a local level.....we have a town locally who requires permits for tree work but that doesnt insure the contractor is good, however the town manager is an arborist & has a referral list of recommended companies to do the work, kinda little favoritism there...but I am on the list!!

Im not sure in our trade how it would be regulated & if it was....those who are the hacks we complain about would probably be "grandfathered" like the Truck drivers & the CDL situation!! SOooo what then? 



LXT.............


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## danieltree (Jan 9, 2010)

My state(Louisiana) requires licensing and encourages certification. It all looks good on paper but has no teeth. Primarily it is to guarantee that the company is insured. We have to take one continuing education class a year and pay for the license renewal. I find that the only way this helps is if the customer is aware of the license requirement. I would like to see a little more regulation but only if it drops my insurance rates considerably. Our state does educate the consumer some so that helps.​


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## southernoutdoor (Jan 9, 2010)

Shouldnt need the govt to tell us what we should and shouldnt do. Just burn the hacks out!!! Run em out of town! Start taking this country back!!!


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## BRCCArborist (Jan 9, 2010)

There is another thread going on right now that describes an "Arborist" in CT spiking up a pine prune. The poster also states that CT has an arborist license requirement. I think this pretty much sums up the ineffectiveness of regulation.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 9, 2010)

I am pro regulation for where there is a minimum knowledge level required to perform as a for-hire service. How can we kvetch about hacks lowballing and messing up work if there are no consumer protection laws?


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## fishercat (Jan 9, 2010)

*all these folks who are pro reg...............................*

will be anti reg as soon as it happens.

the government can' friggin regulate itself,let alone anyone else.

it gets regs, i'm out of this industry.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 9, 2010)

fishercat said:


> will be anti reg as soon as it happens.



I'm sure I would disagree with some of what they require, but I would much rather have some controls then letting the lawnmower men hack trees up.

I do not fear government as much as I would fear the anarchy some libertarians think we should have. Whether it be the wild west, or the days of Standard Oil and the slave labor in eastern coal mines.

Those who whine about regulations do not study history.


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## Bearcreek (Jan 10, 2010)

I have not had a chance to read through this thread yet but my answer to the original question is, no way. The government has no business telling people when or how or by whom their trees can be cut.


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## treevet (Jan 10, 2010)

We have been discussing this on a Linkdin group I am in and they are mostly management muni arbs. They are all for it of course. The nature of the beast prevents a good system by lacking the ability to be equitable. 

I am on my towns Forestry Board and because of this I witness on a daily basis just how much graft and corruption exists everywhere in this small government let alone bigger ones. It is ugly.

Who issues licenses but more important ....who is able to rescind them. That person has corruptible power. But, hey, if you are this person or the ones in the favor of this person, life is all good.

The ISA system is the best out there in establishing a minimum level of knowledge and better yet requiring periodic credit accumulation to stay current and increase knowledge or get booted. After that "let the buyer beware"....forget about government handling anything like this in a positive manner.

And Squirrel, if you cannot pass this entry level test, then you should not be making decisions on what trees should be removed that are not dead and you certainly should not be up there pruning trees.

Also, Treeco, I am amazed you would not support the ISA and dropped your membership. You seem way too smart to not recognize that this the best game in town.


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## jomoco (Jan 10, 2010)

Why are you guys averse to letting your work speak for, and sell itself?

If a hack can do your work cheaper, you are at fault, either from a skill perspective, or an uneducated client base perspective.

If you can't out perform a hack?

jomoco


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## danieltree (Jan 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> We have been discussing this on a Linkdin group I am in and they are mostly management muni arbs. They are all for it of course. The nature of the beast prevents a good system by lacking the ability to be equitable.
> 
> I am on my towns Forestry Board and because of this I witness on a daily basis just how much graft and corruption exists everywhere in this small government let alone bigger ones. It is ugly.
> 
> ...



I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.


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## jomoco (Jan 10, 2010)

danieltree said:


> I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.



The ISA and TCIA are far more interested in luxury vacations in Hawaii than they are furthering the average treeworker's safety, knowledge or information/training base accessability.

Aloha!

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 10, 2010)

danieltree said:


> I agree . I would like to see ISA do a little more customer education though. The milk people get together and promote milk, so do the meat people, why cant we run an ISA campaign to let the whole country know that we are the standard maybe run a commercial or two around every regions arbor day. If it was an easily recognized credential that the customer recognized then we all would get it because the customer would know to demand it. Most of my customers have no clue about ISA until I tell them. I guess every arborist promotes ISA if they are certified but I think it means more actually coming from the organization.



That is a very good post esp. the last sentence.

My example when I have spoken to them has been the golf tournaments you see on television quite often have commercials for the Golf Course Superintendents of America and this is very high profile.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 10, 2010)

I would like to see more of a presence on the lawn and garden shows that influence peoples decision making; not just this is what you do, but whys and wherefores.


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## danieltree (Jan 10, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I would like to see more of a presence on the lawn and garden shows that influence peoples decision making; not just this is what you do, but whys and wherefores.


Yeah, but instead we get a show like "saw for hire". That hurt. I heard ISA raised a stink about it and that helped get it off the air but it would have been nice to see a show or commercial come on to counteract the damage.


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## scubadude1188 (Jan 10, 2010)

I think the U.S. Forest service and state forest services should get on board and start promoting proper tree care. They have money, influence and a respected name that the most people know. They could set up at state fairs, and give information to be handed out at nurseries and other such places and start spreading the word. It means more to come from that end then a industry organization that some may see as a way to try to make more money for the industry and not necessarily focused on what is best for the trees.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 10, 2010)

scubadude1188 said:


> They have money,



So you don't complain about paying taxes? This is the "special interest" conundrum: we all hate them until, they are us.

I would much rather see nonprofits doing the shuck and jive then a federally funded campaign.


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## treevet (Jan 10, 2010)

danieltree said:


> Yeah, but instead we get a show like "saw for hire". That hurt. I heard ISA raised a stink about it and that helped get it off the air but it would have been nice to see a show or commercial come on to counteract the damage.



Don't underestimate the influence of these forums. I think we all were on it long before it reached the ISA's radar.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> Don't underestimate the influence of these forums. I think we all were on it long before it reached the ISA's radar.



Yup, it was a grass roots uprising. The ISA called up Noskiwhatever and had him out for a few days to talk. The magazine column said he was very receptive to what they had to say.


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## scubadude1188 (Jan 10, 2010)

I would say coming from both sides would probably be the most effective and get the wider range and amount of people on board with proper tree care practices. The question is how will the ISA and TCIA get to the public who are not in the tree industry unless they have already consulted an arborist who used proper tree care practices?


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## M.D. Vaden (Jan 10, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> The only ones to make great livings in the tree biz, consistently, are those in bed with governing bodies via sweetheart contracts that most of us do not have the finances to pursue.



That almost happened in Oregon once when big tree services hired a lobbyist and started schmoozing the contractors board. Took 2 years to stop them. Fortunately the group we put together was 5 times their size, and the state representatives at the last hearing had ears for all the details. The problem was not the regulation or qualified, but the laws and rules neatly tucked in to eliminate small businesses without giving them a transition period or way to prepare.

2009 put a pretty bad taste in the public's mouth about sweetheart contracts and people in bed with governing bodies.







opcorn:


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## Bermie (Jan 10, 2010)

treevet said:


> ...The ISA system is the best out there in establishing a minimum level of knowledge and better yet requiring periodic credit accumulation to stay current and increase knowledge or get booted. After that "let the buyer beware"....forget about government handling anything like this in a positive manner....
> 
> .



...minimum level of knowledge...

I would say that is probably my only beef with the ISA Certified Arborist designation, it established a knowledge base, but unless you voluntarily take the climbers certification as well, there is no need or requirement to demonstrate practical competence, actually applying a tool to a tree, or getting up in a tree to carry out an aerial, visual assessment above ground level.

However having the CA is better than not having it...

I am not ISA certified, I have considered it but with all my UK certifications I reckon I'm somewhere well within their knowledge range AND have practical skills certifications as well so its not a pressing priority.

That's not to say I'll never have a go at it, I am a bit of a procrastinator but I do believe the more the merrier and having a range of certifications from different jurisdictions is a good thing in my books...I will get around to it some time!

To address an earlier query, do the NPTC/City & Guilds certifications and the requirement to hold them to be considered qualified to do tree work in the UK, prevent hacks or 'white van men' from doing tree work?? 

No...but if they get caught...and it happens, or if there is a safety incident and it is investigated, they are in deep doo doo. 

The framework exists for comparison, a framework for determining whether their work is correct or not. It gives a starting point, do you have the minimum qualifications in your possesion to be doing what you do? If you do and your work is ####, then you cannot plead ignorance...you have just shown you do not care and you are an unscrupulous practitioner. If you don't, well...In the Arboriculture Monthly reports I get on email, there are often reports of 'hackers' being caught out misrepresenting themselves and being prosecuted and fined serious amounts of money.

The standards for competence are drawn up by practicing professionals, meetings and practical sessions are held to actually work out in the field whether a proposal is workable in reality. Ive been to some of those meetings and sessions and those guys really hammer it out, agree, disagree, compromise whatever. I's not totally perfect but it does establish an agreed baseline

I work here in a totally unregulated environment, it stings to see landscape companies advertising tree work, seeing that disasterous work and knowing what a customer paid for it...I know of one housing development that paid about $11,000 for three days work by four landscapers in a bucket truck...EVERY tree was cut off level at a 'nice' height, absolutely no regard for species, shape, structure, pruning strategies, whatsoever. But I got turned down to do a rigged removal over a roof because they had spent their buget...so now they have hacked trees and a potential liability over a house.

A landscaper was killed two years ago, 25' up an unsecured ladder, rope tied to a truck, rear handle saw, no rope, no harness, 20' of heavy casurina above him...something went wrong, ladder fell, he fell and 20' of heavy casurina fell on his chest...DEAD...for what?

So do I think that only certified +/or licensed companies or individuals should be allowed to carry out work over 8'....you BET I do!

I say +/or because I have one landscaper pal who has taught himself tree work, he has a background in agronomy and worked his way up the ranks in a good landscape company. I have seen his work and I would be happy for him to work on trees...he's proven it by what he does, no official tree certificates but the proof is in the pudding, and he can tell you why he does what he does. So he may not be certified, but he could be licenced based on demonstrated practical competence and underpinning knowledge.

Ok, I'll stop now...time to watch football and have a


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## M.D. Vaden (Jan 10, 2010)

Bermie said:


> So do I think that only certified +/or licensed companies or individuals should be allowed to carry out work over 8'....you BET I do!



I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.

How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.

Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.


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## fishercat (Jan 10, 2010)

*interesting.*



John Paul Sanborn said:


> I'm sure I would disagree with some of what they require, but I would much rather have some controls then letting the lawnmower men hack trees up.
> 
> I do not fear government as much as I would fear the anarchy some libertarians think we should have. Whether it be the wild west, or the days of Standard Oil and the slave labor in eastern coal mines.
> 
> Those who whine about regulations do not study history.



you think another branch of government is going to stop them?

it's already regulated here in Connecticut.you need an arborist license with the state to prune and/or trim.the lawnmower guys still do it without a care in the world.

there will always be customers who don't care because they know if they hire someone with an abrorist license is going to charge more than Jose's lawn service.i don't see what you are accomplishing.you are never going to stop hacks.you can't legislate morality,it's never happened and never will.if you think it will,you're dreaming.

i understand though that you believe government is the answer for everything. when you find something they have fixed,be sure to let me know.


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## fishercat (Jan 10, 2010)

*now there's any idea!*



M.D. Vaden said:


> I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.
> 
> How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.
> 
> Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.



makes a lot more sense than regulating us.

kinda like the laws we have on the books now.has banning murder stop people from killing each other? nope,i think it's worse now than it's ever been?

guns are regulated. hasn't stopped gun crimes.

drugs are illegal,funny,people still use them.


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## treevet (Jan 10, 2010)

I don't see that as a reasonable analogy. We are offering the public a service they are breaking the law (including in some cases non licensed hacks).
It is next to impossible to consistently stop someone that is thinking about breaking a law. It is also very difficult to stop someone that is in the process of breaking a law (if you are not there at the time). Enforcement after the fact gets them out of the crime pool theoretically and even inhibits others when they consider breaking law.

But we are talking about discerning people buying services and how can we let them know that we are the right choice? Credentials are one way to identify the learned ones. In a perfect world the ISA is arborists regulating themselves. You get to vote for your state or province or country's rep. Yo can, yourself run for office and move up to run the whole show if the mood strikes but hopefully those that represent you will act in a way that the majority would want you to. Democracy...perfect world....not ours.

Sometimes you have to pick your poison. Mine would non government dispensed.


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## Bermie (Jan 10, 2010)

M.D. Vaden said:


> I had an idea that may be far fetched, but maybe not, considering how many homeowners make foolish choices, like not checking licenses. Or, that some don't pay their bill and and not qualified to know whether work was done right.
> 
> How about if homeowners have to be certified to own a home? No recurring fees. But a one-time certification showing they were taught about how to hire contractors and what their own responsibilities are.
> 
> Personally, I think that if the law is going to REQUIRE tree companies and landscape companies to have bond and insurance, that the law also REQUIRES any homeowner who signs a service contract to likewise carry a bond.



That's never going to happen...

But on a somewhat similar note, in the UK (ok I sound like a broken record, but better to borrow a wheel than redesign it...)

The Arboricultural Association runs a series of workshops throughout the year across the country called "Engaging Arboricultural Contractors" 
It is one day in length and is aimed at municipalities, councils, homeowners associations etc. who may be considering having arboricultural works done for them. 
It covers all the topics like why contractors should be certified, what kind of equipment they should have, what kind of insurance they should have, what level of expertise they should expect, why a certified approved company will cost a significant amount of money...they pass around equipment, good and bad, they show videos of accidents...then they go outside and demonstrate good climbing practice, chainsaw use, and pruning technique.
At the end of the day, those groups of people leave with a better idea of what a reputable company looks like, what they will do, and that they should not necessarily take the lowest bid!

Now I REALLY am going to have some


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 10, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> We do not need regulation and it would not be good for the consumer. I've been in the tree biz since 1987 and a Certified Arborist for 18 of those years. It seems most of the posters in this thread want regulation to get the low bidders out of the loop so they can make a better profit. I'm against it. If the client doesn't know better than to buy poor quality work then they will get what they pay for.



I agree 100% with TreeCo's statement here . 

The people have what they want now, that's freedom of choice. Pay for good work or get cheap low quality work, it's your choice and that's the way it should be.


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## danieltree (Jan 10, 2010)

Even though I like James the narcoleptic I would not offer that choice to anybody. The guy that tells my customer his tree has pine beetles when it does not just so he can cut it down for some quick cash is not a choice either. I live in a regulated state and we deal with this crap all the time. If there is no label to mark a proven Arborist then how does the customer begin to shop for that choice.​


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## Nailsbeats (Jan 10, 2010)

danieltree said:


> Even though I like James the narcoleptic I would not offer that choice to anybody. The guy that tells my customer his tree has pine beetles when it does not just so he can cut it down for some quick cash is not a choice either. I live in a regulated state and we deal with this crap all the time. If there is no label to mark a proven Arborist then how does the customer begin to shop for that choice.​



Easy, talk to references. If a consumer cares they'll do the legwork to get a good contractor.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 11, 2010)

Just curious on how many non-regulators would go see a doctor who is not board-certified, Hire a lawyer who hasn't been called to the bar, or have a guy who can read engineering tables design their skyscraper?


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## clearance (Jan 11, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Just curious on how many non-regulators would go see a doctor who is not board-certified, Hire a lawyer who hasn't been called to the bar, or have a guy who can't read engineering tables design their skyscraper?



Or get an arborist who hasn't climbed a tree or ran a saw....... Now, cutting down trees around powerlines, well, thats another kettle of fish.


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## treevet (Jan 11, 2010)

Ya cut em in a way that you don't get electrocuted?


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## clearance (Jan 11, 2010)

treevet said:


> Ya cut em in a way that you don't get electrocuted?



So far, lol.


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## Bermie (Jan 11, 2010)

clearance said:


> Or get an arborist who hasn't climbed a tree or ran a saw....... .



Damn straight skippy...CA's should have tree climber specialist as well, even if they never actually climb another tree, at least they'd have an understanding.


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## outofmytree (Jan 11, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Damn straight skippy...CA's should have tree climber specialist as well, even if they never actually climb another tree, at least they'd have an understanding.



Amen.


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## lxt (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow..others & I have preached many of these points regarding the CA credential.......ISA wont change cuz then the tree climber specialist cert. would be entailed within the CA cert & $$$ would be lost?????? & hats off to the poster recognizing that ISA & TCIA could insteed of going to Hawaii & other lavish areas for conferences & such....spend those moneys on promoting!!

I understand why Treeco said hell with ISA....I got my CA cause alot of contracts with the park service require it & I bid & get those....BUT, they dont promote us or enforce standards, they come across as a necessity for our trade but they are not & to boot.....everything is about Money, while ISA grows off our membership the only thing I see them really doing!....Is having more lavish getaways while creating more $$$$ making certification programs

Unions represent there members better than this & they are basically a tax to work..........ISA, doesnt really do much for their membership on the levels we need them to. Untill this happens.....it`ll be the same!






LXT.................


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Damn straight skippy...CA's should have tree climber specialist as well, even if they never actually climb another tree, at least they'd have an understanding.



Arborist and climber are like rectangle and square, the latter is the former, but the former is not necessarily the latter. Why should a lab researcher show the same competency as a for-hire practitioner?


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## lxt (Jan 11, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> Arborist and climber are like rectangle and square, the latter is the former, but the former is not necessarily the latter. Why should a lab researcher show the same competency as a for-hire practitioner?




Thats funny, The NAA back in the day required such!! & that was a respected organization with a title of CA that held merit & respect, not that way now with the ISA!!

The credentials have been watered down & more put in place to bring in a larger group of people, ultimately for more money!!! lessen the requirements, obtain a larger membership base, create more credentials....MAKE MORE MONEY!!!..........then drink margaritas in hawaii off the dues of the members! LOL...



LXT...........


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## John Paul Sanborn (Jan 11, 2010)

NAA, now TCIA is the industry advocacy organization, the ISA is more intellectual made up of all types of people who work with trees.

I would like to see more nurserymen as CA's, why should they have to climb?

How about a 50 year old female phd who specializes in roots? 

I would not want to try to put Kim Coder in a tree these days!


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## Bermie (Jan 11, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> NAA, now TCIA is the industry advocacy organization, the ISA is more intellectual made up of all types of people who work with trees.
> 
> I would like to see more nurserymen as CA's, why should they have to climb?
> 
> ...



Ok, JPS. you do have a valid point there, and I agree there would be people who could or would never climb, but need a knowledge certification.

I guess some of my frustration comes from being a climbing arborist, I realize there are tree specialists out there who do not climb, and they hold a depth of knowledge far and away beyond what we are talking about... but to me the term arborist encompasses the whole gamut, knowledge and practical competence. (thats just the way I feel!)

For someone to get a certification that designates only an attained knowledge base, and a pretty basic one at that...maybe it should be called something else, something that makes it clear it is a knowledge only designation...then when, and if necessary, someone collects both parts, knowledge and competence, THEN they could be called a Certified Arborist.


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## treevet (Jan 11, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Ok, JPS. you do have a valid point there, and I agree there would be people who could or would never climb, but need a knowledge certification.
> 
> I guess some of my frustration comes from being a climbing arborist, I realize there are tree specialists out there who do not climb, and they hold a depth of knowledge far and away beyond what we are talking about... but to me the term arborist encompasses the whole gamut, knowledge and practical competence. (thats just the way I feel!)
> 
> For someone to get a certification that designates only an attained knowledge base, and a pretty basic one at that...maybe it should be called something else, something that makes it clear it is a knowledge only designation...then when, and if necessary, someone collects both parts, knowledge and competence, THEN they could be called a Certified Arborist.



The whole genius in the set up is the ceu's. The org is destined to break up into more and more specialists as now there is BCMA, Muni, and Utility. Expect more to come I would expect. You have the entry knowledge recognized and then you are free to get your credits in any area and eventually you will be a specialist in that niche. I wish they would acknowledge the number of times you have re certed so the buyer would have an idea of how many credits times 30 you have attained. Be real simple by adding it to your cert number.


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## lxt (Jan 11, 2010)

First off nurserymen have an association, I wonder how TCIA would feel about ISA being called the intellectual counterpart!

LOL, why would a 50yr old female with a PHD.....care to have an Arborist certification?.......really!! that makes no sense to want a lesser "pigskin" when you`ve obtained the ultimate!!

Yes........climbing should be mandatory for CA`s!! sorry, the safety aspects of this more than suggest such!!

I hardly think the genuis of the ISA is the CEU`s, yes they`re gonna add more Certs........certs=$$$$$!. personally I`d rather see the main exam be retaken every three years....not the same one! in other words you took the entry level exam.....3years later you are prompted on what exam you will need to take, buy the book, study, pay cert fee & thats it....kinda like college courses...you have core classes & electives...make the Arborist news quizzes electives! then rank or rate the individuals certification based on that!!

personally the general public wont give a crap!!


LXT.............


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## fishercat (Jan 11, 2010)

*sorry for jumping all over you JPS.*



fishercat said:


> you think another branch of government is going to stop them?
> 
> it's already regulated here in Connecticut.you need an arborist license with the state to prune and/or trim.the lawnmower guys still do it without a care in the world.
> 
> ...



i thought i was replying to Treeco. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Rftreeman (Jan 11, 2010)

Regulation is not the answer, education is............:hmm3grin2orange:

Landscapers will ALWAYS do tree work but is there really anything wrong with that if they know both industries......

There will always be some idiot that gets hurt or killed......

There will always be someone that will do it cheaper......

The ISA could care less about you or this industry, all they want is your money.........

There most likely would be new taxes added to the many we already pay to fund this "regulation" that would be useless to keep the "low bidders" out, it would only help them because they don't pay taxes anyway.....


That's how I see it.........


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## Bearcreek (Jan 11, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Just curious on how many non-regulators would go see a doctor who is not board-certified, Hire a lawyer who hasn't been called to the bar, or have a guy who can read engineering tables design their skyscraper?



I've heard this analogy before. First of all, all of the jobs you mentioned require far more knowledge and education than is needed to perform the vast majority of tree work. Secondly, yes, people should be able to choose their own doctors, lawyers and architects without government interference.


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## treevet (Jan 11, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> I've heard this analogy before. First of all, all of the jobs you mentioned require far more knowledge and education than is needed to perform the vast majority of tree work. Secondly, yes, people should be able to choose their own doctors, lawyers and architects without government interference.



How about without credentials?

Also how many species of human beings do doctors deal with?

How many species of trees do arborists deal with?


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## IcePick (Jan 11, 2010)

Personally I don't care about regulation or not. The hacks will never be stopped, and like some guys have already said, people have a right to pay for poor quality tree work if they're so inclined.

My main concern is that I don't make near enough money that I should, considering I climb EVERYDAY...hazard removals, crown cleans, technical riggings...you name it.

Working for a company, I'm more interested in pushing for higher wages, better benefits, and no way in hell is ISA or TCIA going to make that a reality for me.

Prolly some of you are thinking "hey dipsh.t, you could probably make a better wage if the industry was regulated" but I just don't see that happening as well.


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 11, 2010)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ISA an organization run by its members? There isn't some individual who gets the dollars earned through registrations. 

If you don't like the way the ISA is run, then, like the government, step up and run for an elected position. It's easier to make changes from the inside.

Staff, the bureaucracy, answers to the Board of Directors. Don't like how staff operates, get on the Board and change it. 

I learned this lesson first hand when I was much younger. I was sitting on the Board of Trustees for the local library. After a while, the Chief Librarian was considered to be doing an inadequate job. Gone.


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## fishercat (Jan 11, 2010)

*as for me,*



Bearcreek said:


> I've heard this analogy before. First of all, all of the jobs you mentioned require far more knowledge and education than is needed to perform the vast majority of tree work. Secondly, yes, people should be able to choose their own doctors, lawyers and architects without government interference.



no problem going to a doctor who isn't part of the system if he had good references."the bar" is the problem with lawyers.

i can't afford a skyscraper. probably never will be able to.


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## Bearcreek (Jan 12, 2010)

treevet said:


> How about without credentials?
> 
> Also how many species of human beings do doctors deal with?
> 
> How many species of trees do arborists deal with?



Yes, without credentials, if folks are so inclined. Besides, having credentials and using them to give customers confidence that you know what you're doing is a whole different thing than the government telling the customers they can't hire you without them. I have no problem with the ISA offering certifications and using that as a marketing tool. I have no problem with organizations requiring contractors who submit bids to be certified. What I do have a problem with is the government, at any level, deciding who is and who is not qualified to work on trees. That decision should be the landowner's. And yes, doctors do work on one species (unless they're a veterinary doctor), but I still think their work takes more education and knowledge than ours. If I screw up a prune job, the worst that can happen, usually, is the tree dies and has to be removed. If a doctor screws up a heart surgery, the patient could die. I believe his patient's life is a hell of a lot more important than my patient's.


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## treevet (Jan 12, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> Yes, without credentials, if folks are so inclined. Besides, having credentials and using them to give customers confidence that you know what you're doing is a whole different thing than the government telling the customers they can't hire you without them. I have no problem with the ISA offering certifications and using that as a marketing tool. I have no problem with organizations requiring contractors who submit bids to be certified. What I do have a problem with is the government, at any level, deciding who is and who is not qualified to work on trees. That decision should be the landowner's. And yes, doctors do work on one species (unless they're a veterinary doctor), but I still think their work takes more education and knowledge than ours. If I screw up a prune job, the worst that can happen, usually, is the tree dies and has to be removed. If a doctor screws up a heart surgery, the patient could die. I believe his patient's life is a hell of a lot more important than my patient's.



What if you were to hack your trees all to hell, top cuts, flush cuts, rip cuts, spike wounds all over. The tree doesn't die but decay sets in all over and one day your ;mom is unloading the groceries and the whole works comes down on her and her station wagon?


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## Bermie (Jan 12, 2010)

Well, regulation is about to come to Bermuda...
The Government has just listed Horticulture as an occupation for which you must be licenced...they started with welders, auto mechanics and electricians last year. Arboriculture will come under that heading of Horticulture.

I happen to to be on the occupation advisory committee, have been involved with training and education for the last 13 years...so here we FINALLY go!
FWIW the committee includes representatives from across the industry, and the standards will be set by them, NOT the Government...


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## outofmytree (Jan 13, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Well, regulation is about to come to Bermuda...
> The Government has just listed Horticulture as an occupation for which you must be licenced...they started with welders, auto mechanics and electricians last year. Arboriculture will come under that heading of Horticulture.
> 
> I happen to to be on the occupation advisory committee, have been involved with training and education for the last 13 years...so here we FINALLY go!
> FWIW the committee includes representatives from across the industry, and the standards will be set by them, NOT the Government...



That sounds great. I will be interested in the methodology of regulation and enforcement that your committee comes up with. I often wondered why it wasn't applied on multiple levels. For example, buy a chainsaw, show your chainsaw ticket, insure your business, show your business certified to OHS standards, put in a written quote, include your license number and so on. 

This is a good start run at a state level here. 







This license must be carried at all times on major worksites and covers 29 jobs like rigging, dogging, crane driving, EWP operation and so on. Cost me under $20 per annum. Add felling and aerial pruning to that list and you have a ready made arborists license. Not the company being licensed that is, but the individual. So no using someone elses dodgy building license to sell your work, you the person working on the tree must have the ticket.

Ah well. I can but hope.


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

shoulda asked if the lic. #....007 was taken yet Doc.


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## outofmytree (Jan 13, 2010)

:hmm3grin2orange: Reckon.


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## Grace Tree (Jan 13, 2010)

Different country, different culture. If I needed a card to buy a chainsaw I'd find somewhere else to live; in a hurry.
Phil


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

5 minutes ago I have the police and the fire department at my door. Some moron passerby calls in and says my house is on fire. I heat my house with wood. If they pass a law that you cannot burn wood in my town I am out of here as well. 

Not 5 minutes prior to that the dogs are barking like crazy at the front door. I go up stairs and look out there and some lady walking a dog and another person is up the hill, up the yard stairs fussing with Christmas lights on my yard light. I know it is late to keep up Christmas stuff, but it isn't against the law.

Wanted to let the dogs out to chase them but then I gotta worry about law suits. 

Laws, laws, laws, uptight people.


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## Grace Tree (Jan 13, 2010)

treevet said:


> 5 minutes ago I have the police and the fire department at my door. Some moron passerby calls in and says my house is on fire. I heat my house with wood. If they pass a law that you cannot burn wood in my town I am out of here as well.
> 
> Not 5 minutes prior to that the dogs are barking like crazy at the front door. I go up stairs and look out there and some lady walking a dog and another person is up the hill, up the yard stairs fussing with Christmas lights on my yard light. I know it is late to keep up Christmas stuff, but it isn't against the law.
> 
> ...



I hear you. a couple of years ago the doorbell rings and there's a cop at my front door. He said, "there's smoke coming out of your chimney." I didn't know what to say. He told me that someone had called it in because they thought it was too warm a day to have a fire. Idiots.
Phil


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

I have been burning for about 35 years. In the morning I burn it hot to warm up the house but also to burn out the creosote in the chimney. Then you have to bank it down or you probably would have a fire. This gives a brief burst of dark smoke.

If they have to call with some perceived emergency all the cops have to do is call your house, they have all the numbers, and you can stop 3 trucks and 3 cop cars from being in front of your house.

The call was "a structure on fire". Plain as day the smoke was coming out of the chimney. I guess one of 2 ways of looking at is "they were doing us a big favor".


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## Bearcreek (Jan 13, 2010)

treevet said:


> What if you were to hack your trees all to hell, top cuts, flush cuts, rip cuts, spike wounds all over. The tree doesn't die but decay sets in all over and one day your ;mom is unloading the groceries and the whole works comes down on her and her station wagon?



Sure, I don't want my mom getting killed by an improperly pruned tree. I also don't want her dieing of a heart attack. Therefore I think the government should set up a system where each person has to have quarterly physicals and anyone who doesn't pass is not allowed to have an ice cream and chocolate buying permit. Crazy, right? But, it's far more likely that she'll die of a heart attack because of bad diet than die by getting hit by a badly pruned tree. She's more likely to get killed by a branch while hiking in the woods where the trees aren't pruned at all. That's not a good reason for government regulations.


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Not sure what you mean by "burn out the creosote in the chimney". When creosote gets burned out in a chimney it's called a chimney fire...and chimney fires of all types are bad news..... they damage flue tiles and metal chimneys. Sounds like 'old school' wood heating. LOL!



Cooking it out may be a better term....anyway don't knock "old school" ....it got to be old school for a reason.....it worked. 

"damage flue tiles and metal chimneys" ? pishposh


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> Sure, I don't want my mom getting killed by an improperly pruned tree. I also don't want her dieing of a heart attack. Therefore I think the government should set up a system where each person has to have quarterly physicals and anyone who doesn't pass is not allowed to have an ice cream and chocolate buying permit. Crazy, right? But, it's far more likely that she'll die of a heart attack because of bad diet than die by getting hit by a badly pruned tree. She's more likely to get killed by a branch while hiking in the woods where the trees aren't pruned at all. That's not a good reason for government regulations.



I think we are on the same side of the fence and keep arguing....I am not for govt regs but rather credentials and let the buyer decide.


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## Grace Tree (Jan 13, 2010)

Everyone around here cooks out the chimney from time to time. 8000 Amish can't be wrong.
Phil


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> That sounds great. I will be interested in the methodology of regulation and enforcement that your committee comes up with. I often wondered why it wasn't applied on multiple levels. For example, buy a chainsaw, show your chainsaw ticket, insure your business, show your business certified to OHS standards, put in a written quote, include your license number and so on.
> 
> This is a good start run at a state level here.
> 
> ...





*God help us if this is ever put into law*, how absolutely f:censored:ing stupid this is!! chainsaw ticket??? what? this is taking it way too far, what next?......snow blower license, how about a "child bearing" license? 

Regulate our industry? It needs something, but nothing this absurd! Australia has an anti gun law too, dont they? try passing that here in the US!

Setting up a standard of betterment for our trade is a good thing but middle ground must be found, even though we complain about hacks...they still must be given time to adjust! 

IMHO regulations never work cuz someone always corrupts the system especially at the state & federal levels, put the burden on the consumer....after all they are the ones who complain! they werent complaining when ole billy bob undercut the competition by hundreds of $$$, heres the problem!!

Ho`s want the cheapest price & the best work not realizing that is not the case most of the time, then when their $75 lawn guy pruning looks like crap smear on an oak leaf they wanna cry foul!!! who really is a fault for low quality workmanship?....thats where it has to start!!


LXT..............


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> Hopefully you are better informed about trees than you are about wood heat!



Come on over if you ever in Cinci. I'll teach you a little of both.

Like every year this fall cleaned out my chimney and flue and got a small bathroom size garb can of creosote. Burned about 6 or 7 cords last year.


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> Sure, I don't want my mom getting killed by an improperly pruned tree. I also don't want her dieing of a heart attack. Therefore I think the government should set up a system where each person has to have quarterly physicals and anyone who doesn't pass is not allowed to have an ice cream and chocolate buying permit. Crazy, right? But, it's far more likely that she'll die of a heart attack because of bad diet than die by getting hit by a badly pruned tree. She's more likely to get killed by a branch while hiking in the woods where the trees aren't pruned at all. That's not a good reason for government regulations.




Nice reply Bearcreek!

C`mon treevet, what`s the statistics of death by bad pruning drop out? LMFAO!!!!!! if anything that would be a freak accident & honestly the person struck.....well it was their time to go!

Regulation in the sense some of you are talking about would even drive you outta biz, be careful what ya wish for! what if the regulation said person must show professional training & have 5yrs field experience by an established recognized biz????? what if the Big companies are looked to for establishing the regulations?

you think they`re gonna help you or help solidify a better hold in this economy for themselves? Regulation as some are stating will just be another money grab for local, state or federal!!...........



LXT.........


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## Live Oak (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> *God help us if this is ever put into law*, how absolutely f:censored:ing stupid this is!! chainsaw ticket??? what? this is taking it way too far, what next?......snow blower license, how about a "child bearing" license?
> 
> Regulate our industry? It needs something, but nothing this absurd! Australia has an anti gun law too, dont they? try passing that here in the US!
> 
> ...


It is my opinion that states should have licensing boards with a legislatively passed criterium list to adhere to. Governor in MI took discretion away from the ccw gun boards & gave them a list. now anyone in MI would receive a permit to carry simply by meeting the criteria on that list. I also believe that a gov. website having certified tree guys would be beneficial; say (county by county). The industry definitely has a lot of bad business being done each day on the part of owners. I see it in MI weekly.


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I burned about five cords and get about a pint per year.



I think we are both playing the game the right way.


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> Nice reply Bearcreek!
> 
> C`mon treevet, what`s the statistics of death by bad pruning drop out? LMFAO!!!!!! if anything that would be a freak accident & honestly the person struck.....well it was their time to go!
> 
> ...



You are always scared to death "somebody is doing a "MONEY GRAB" on your money" lol.

My guess is you don't have much money to grab and that is why you think everyone is after your last little bits.

You gotta spend money to make money. Don't let your cert. lapse if you haven't already. You will be sorry you did.

And yeah, you're right ofcourse, nobody should EVER worry about any tree falling on anyone hahahahahahah


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

treevet said:


> You are always scared to death "somebody is doing a "MONEY GRAB" on your money" lol.
> 
> My guess is you don't have much money to grab and that is why you think everyone is after your last little bits.
> 
> ...




You are funny!!...I have enough money to live very comfortable, put my daughter through college, build a music studio & own some nice toys, etc..etc.. very happy with what God gives me & thankful too.

I do spend money to make money, I dont like working hard for my cash to have some impotent rule maker dip into my cookie jar......theft is theft!

yeah I know.......poor pruning jobs & the fatality rate from such are always listed in the TCIA magazine.....NOT! LMFAO, 

with your fortune & ideas many would question why wouldnt you hire a regulated biz with certified personnel to clean out your chimney stack on the ole mobilehome.......hell fires from such as you have done are very frequent, should be certified to do that!!



LXT....................


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## outofmytree (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> *God help us if this is ever put into law*, how absolutely f:censored:ing stupid this is!! chainsaw ticket??? what? this is taking it way too far, what next?......snow blower license, how about a "child bearing" license?
> 
> Regulate our industry? It needs something, but nothing this absurd! Australia has an anti gun law too, dont they? try passing that here in the US!
> 
> ...



You mean you don't have a chainsaw ticket? Seriously? There is no course in the US which teaches chainsaw safety and handling?

Do you have a drivers license?

What an over the top reaction to simple common sense. Electricians, plumbers, builders and even house painters over here are registered. So when you call a tradesman to your house you can ask to see their certification. If you choose not to ask that's your call but go do a yellow pages search and see how many companies list their cert number in their ads.

No matter what method is used to "improve our trade" be assured some part of it must be government regulation. Just as some part of it must be industry driven and the largest part must be consumer education.



> Regulation as some are stating will just be another money grab for local, state or federal!!...........



Could you show me something other than anti regulation paranoia? Your electricians, plumbers, builders etc are licensed right? Does the licensing of trades in the construction industry seriously generate income for the government? Could you provide some concrete evidence of this?

I don't want the taxman sinking his claws into my hide anymore than you do. I also want to see the standard of work in our trade rise as a whole. You do not meet broke electricans, broke plumbers or broke builders or broke house painters over here because to earn in those trades you need certication. I know a few broke arborists. Do you?


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## Live Oak (Jan 13, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> You mean you don't have a chainsaw ticket? Seriously? There is no course in the US which teaches chainsaw safety and handling?
> 
> Do you have a drivers license?
> 
> ...


I climbed some trees for a 20 year old company in december & the ground crew definitely had not been taught chainsaw safety. first time they started a saw i came down & gave them the course. don't think it took me 10 minutes.


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

Here in PA, businesses such as home improvement contractors, framers, cabinet installers, floor tile installs, drywallers, painters, et... did not need a license!!!

Now the Atty General passed a law stating that businesses in the above line(s) of work will need to pay a registration fee & obtain a #, this costs $50.00 a year.....they did the same thing in Philly years ago & now the registration fee is $4-500.00 not exactly sure.

Pa is a state in financial trouble, I see what they are putting into place as a "census" for small biz, a way to make money to pull them outta financial turmoil that they will ultimately abuse & then will raise the costs over N over, just like the "turnpike" tolls & the state wanting to make other roads "toll" roads.....they want the money!!!!

tradesman here are viewed a little differently, yes we have chainsaw safety classes (voluntary), yes I have a CDL license...totally different animal as far as regulation IMO, here a licensed plumber can have many work under his license.......just like pest/herb license...the holder can have many applicators under his license as long as he is within a certain distance from them, 50 mile radius I think.

Painters, drywallers, floor installers & home framers did not need a license or need registration until july 2009????

I agree in part with what you are saying!!! but many want to compare our trade to doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc...when our education level is not the same, when the society importance of our trade is not the same, etc.. I wish it was!! Like I said in an earlier post...who will set the standard for the local, state or federal level to go by!!! 

over here & in PA you can start a lawn service/landscape serv with no experience, no license & a general liability policy thats almost non existant, some of these contractors dont even carry liabilty...especially grass cutters!


LXT............


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> why wouldnt you hire a regulated biz with certified personnel to clean out your chimney stack on the ole mobilehome.......



Not cause I am all worried about the big "money grab" or "impotence" or whatever you are worried about....but because I have a chimney even a chimney sweep couldn't clean so I do it myself with my cherry picker, on my $400,000 dollar "mobile home". A hillbilly like you should appreciate that.


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> I agree in part with what you are saying!!! but many want to compare our trade to doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc...when our education level is not the same, when the society importance of our trade is not the same, etc.. I wish it was!!



speak for yourself............well I guess you already did. Crack a book once in a while and quit worrying about the pandemic money grab lol.


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

treevet said:


> Not cause I am all worried about the big "money grab" or "impotence" or whatever you are worried about....but because I have a chimney even a chimney sweep couldn't clean so I do it myself with my cherry picker, on my $400,000 dollar "mobile home". A hillbilly like you should appreciate that.




Well thats good for you, funny how you want regulation to weed out the hacks??? I mean, Hell you`re doing so good why would you care!

Glad your mobile home appraised for so much....especially in cincinatti ohio....guess what? my mobile home is right there with yours,  

money grab= taxes in my eyes, guess you like taxes??? I pay uncle sam enough....so yes I get a little ruffled when other entities want to regulate/certify/accredate, etc... just for the sake of it, cuz our trade can produce a good buck!!

Impotence....was refering to people of a like mind to yours!! people who want everything regulated no matter what the cost!!! cuz they dont like the "hacks"....ever notice how an industry becomes regulated when its a growing (everbody`s doing it) business, then when the bottom falls out or it stabilizes it becomes de-regulated....cuz the Govt. doesnt want to continue waisting its resources on regulating it!!

Ill speak again for myself, we are not Doctors, nurses, lawyers, pshycologists, or Phd holders...most of us anyway!! most CA`s have no Assoc. degree let alone a BA.....we cannot think that we are on the same playing field as the above mentioned people are... you might want to!!! As do I, sorry not gonna happen untill colleges start having Arboriculture degrees...making the Arborist credential (in specific)...a nationally recognized program of study, a neccesitive degree to obtain employment in a desired field!............Right now it is VOLUNTARY...& if you can climb/operate a bucket you are gonna get hired without the CA cert!

BTW....I am reading an article right now! Organochlorines & Neonicotinoids!......Ohh did I mention in my "mobile home" I have a music library & law library....literally!!!! so reading has never been a problem!! Im not really a hillbilly...........more like a metal maniac! shred power!!


LXT..................


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

lxt said:


> Ill speak again for myself, we are not Doctors, nurses, lawyers, pshycologists, or Phd holders...most of us anyway!! most CA`s have no Assoc. degree let alone a BA.....we cannot think that we are on the same



I know you think we are on the same level of knowledge but it doesn't take much intuition to figure out the we are not. I have been studying trees for over 40 years...books, seminars, articles, etc, etc. I have been to countless Shigo seminars and used to go to a weeklong seminar he had with only 25 students who each had their own microscopes. I have all of his work and have read it and basically understand all of it.

Shigo used to say...."When you leave here you will still be confused however you will be on a MUCH higher level of confusion". Every day of the week I read for at least 2 hours about trees. I have around 100 texts on all aspects of trees and all of the ones suggested by the ISA. I have read all of them. I often re read them and have more background to gain more understanding of them.

I am trying to get through "Diagnosis and Prognosis of the Development of Wood Decay in Urban Trees" by Francis Schwarze. It is a way hard read but I will get through it and I plan to take another current class at Ohio State soon by Dr. Enrico Bonello on "Diseases of Shade Trees" and then re read this text with more understanding.

What I am trying to say here is "we" you keep using meaning I suppose..."all us guys that passed the Cert test" like you are vastly different than you assume. I passed that test 18 years ago without studying and the 30 credits I am supposed to get every three years is probably 1 percent of what I study in that span or less.

Don't think I am condescending to a CA but rather am proud of anyone that takes it and keeps it .....but there are many, many like me out there that just LOVE to study trees rather than being burdened by it or inconvenienced by it or money grabbed by it like you imply. We probably put in at least as much time reading as a doctor or nurse, etc., and the subject matter is just as complex.


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## lxt (Jan 13, 2010)

Treevet,

I must in your case concede! honestly, If what you are saying is true then I understand were you are coming from, I was referring to many such as myself in all honesty!

dont be fooled by my Bio, I am 2nd generation in tree care, while my age is not where you are I have been taught by many with much more time than you have...I respect the time, teaching & love by those such as yourself greatly!!! most of my time is in the field, hands on!

Im not trying to have a Pizzin match or anything...The average person will not & I repeat will not!! acknowledge what we do on a level that most of us here want them to...unless awareness is raised & IMO colleges, universities & trade schools will need to start promoting it on a level as the other degree/certification programs are on!! JMHO

I tell people I am an ISA CA & most dont even know what an "Arborist" is or what they do?? & these are college Grads in some instances!! 


LXT................


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## outofmytree (Jan 13, 2010)

Live Oak said:


> I climbed some trees for a 20 year old company in december & the ground crew definitely had been taught chainsaw safety. first time they started a saw i came down & gave them the course. don't think it took me 10 minutes.



My point exactly. We have many such examples over here. If you want to do this work for gain or profit then some minimum skills training should be mandatory. If the owner of the company you climbed for had an ounce of integrity those guys would have already known the basics. Sometimes it is not enough to hope that employers will train their people to keep them alive, sometimes regulation of some sort is required to make sure it is done.



> tradesman here are viewed a little differently, yes we have chainsaw safety classes (voluntary), yes I have a CDL license...totally different animal as far as regulation IMO, here a licensed plumber can have many work under his license.......just like pest/herb license...the holder can have many applicators under his license as long as he is within a certain distance from them, 50 mile radius I think.



Interesting geographical differences. That system needs fixing. Imagine the pain of plumbing that backs up because the "supervisor" was 49 miles away when the unskilled labour put the wrong size pipe in then buried it 2 feet down. Or if you prefer, the pain of replacing half your roof because the unskilled labour dropped the top of a tree on it because the CA was on the other side of town quoting a job. 



> I tell people I am an ISA CA & most dont even know what an "Arborist" is or what they do?? & these are college Grads in some instances!!





> Oh your an Arborist. Something to do with boats?



We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed. 

1.More skills and knowledge for *ALL* tree workers

2.Regulation as to who may work for gain or profit on trees of a given size

3.Public education so everyone knows that tree work is a skilled trade that must be done by skilled trades people.

The trick of course is finding a system which works in each different country. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution but the bare bones of it will be similar.


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## D Mc (Jan 13, 2010)

treevet said:


> Don't think I am condescending to a CA but rather am proud of anyone that takes it and keeps it .....but there are many, many like me out there that just LOVE to study trees rather than being burdened by it or inconvenienced by it or money grabbed by it like you imply. We probably put in at least as much time reading as a doctor or nurse, etc., and the subject matter is just as complex.



Well said.

Dave


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## treevet (Jan 13, 2010)

D Mc said:


> Well said.
> 
> Dave



Was thinking of you both when I said that along with others.


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

Treevet, out of curiosity? what title in arboriculture do you hold?

Love for studying trees is very admirable & not aiming this at you, BUT...many like you think that the book side of it with no hands on is fine!!! Hopefully you are not one of those!!!!

One can read books & go to seminars & have alex shigo talk to em all they want.....but if they havent work aloft....then to me their book smarts is just that, it has no real life experience to it & honestly my respect for those people is less than it would be for a non-certified climber with 10yrs. exp.

Im not sure if what you`re saying is 40yrs reading & studying or combined reading, studying, climbing/working aloft???? 

One can read all they want about trees......there is still no comparison to a Doctor, Nurse, Surgeon, Vet, etc.... If you think so, thats your biz!!but try telling the Mom with the dead tree in the back yard taking care of her sick baby.....that your book smarts pertaining to trees are just as good as the Doctor/Nusre who cared for her sick child..........good luck with that!

As far as the Complexity, you cannot even begin to compare Trees & shrubbery to the human anatomy & its workings, thats a very ridiculous statement!!! If one thinks it compares, I`d say go study to be a Doctor then!!......you will make more money, gain more respect & basically the demand for such makes it recession proof!! 

Hopefully when regulation comes upon us......those with hands on experience & certifications will be the voice instituting such, 40 yrs studying is a long time............but without hands on!!! I`ll say my experience is just as good if not better in a real life situation!!! Im pretty sure you have hands on!!



LXT.................


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## jrr344 (Jan 14, 2010)

*corps*

Regulation is code for; destroy the little guy and prop up huge corps. The normal tree pruner cannot afford to meet the regulations, which are usually overkill to put it nicely. Usually these regulation are brought on by the big corps lobbiest trying to destroy any competition.


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> Treevet, out of curiosity? what title in arboriculture do you hold?
> 
> Love for studying trees is very admirable & not aiming this at you, BUT...many like you think that the book side of it with no hands on is fine!!! Hopefully you are not one of those!!!!
> 
> ...



Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.

As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> Regulation is code for; destroy the little guy and prop up huge corps. They normal tree pruner cannot afford to meet the regulations, which are usually overkill to put it nicely. Usually these regulation are brought on by the big corps lobbiest trying to destroy any competition.



Welcome aboard JR. I do like your signature quote!

I agree that uncontrolled regulation often does exactly what you say. Unrestricted trading hours have had that effect on small retailers in other states of Australia and it is no surprise to discover that major retailers want them in my little part of the country too.

It is for this reason that I suggest more than simply regulation to improve our trade. Furthermore, if you scroll back to Bermies post, she is taking an *ACTIVE* part in new regulations and is, like me, a one truck operation. 

Reminds of a song from way back.

"keep talking 'bout the government won't stop air pollution,
put your hand over your mouth when you cough that'll help the solution".

I guess The Cane Gang thought actions were worth more than words too.


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

:agree2:, pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses...the good along with the bad!!!

I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!

I just dont get it, when a business files taxes...they`re registered, when they Incorporate...they`re registered, etc... who & what law should set a minimum standard? in most cases this is why alot of home owners do it themselves!!! yes... with consequences!!! 

On my property I can do my own plumbing, electrical, roofing, framing...you name it!! Yes....ME!.....I am in the last stage of my renovation...took me some 5+ yrs, I hired contractors to do most of the above...wanted it done right!!! But...there is no law saying I cant do it myself...as long as it meets code (which is a joke)! there is no code enforcment officer for the proper care of trees, even if there was??? the home owner could still do the work as long as it met code & in some instances would do it regardless!

Could you see this? hell the building trades code officers are in short supply, I couldnt even imagine a code officer for tree care!!!




LXT................


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## treevet (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.
> 
> As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.




thanks for getting my back bro


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> :agree2:, pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses...the good along with the bad!!!
> 
> I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!
> 
> ...



Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind. 

I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?


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## jrr344 (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Welcome aboard JR. I do like your signature quote!
> 
> I agree that uncontrolled regulation often does exactly what you say. Unrestricted trading hours have had that effect on small retailers in other states of Australia and it is no surprise to discover that major retailers want them in my little part of the country too.
> 
> ...



Never works like that though, you can't just have a little regulation. The government always over regulates, the only thing you can do is do it as responsible as you can so the gonvernment doesn't meddle.They don't know anything about the businesses they regulate anyways and they only ask people with a one sided political agenda so I say they should stay out of it.


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.
> 
> As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.





I dont know TV from adam, nor you! & honestly untill I see some one in action words dont mean a thing!

My main point was in regard to one trying to depict our trade as having similar importance to certain other fields & the thought that it has similar complexities.............which it in no way does!!!!!!

He is a CA (tv that is) held it since 71, honestly unless he has a BA, or Masters in Horticulture or something to do with this field........he is no better than I or anyone else....so in esscence he is being condescending towards CA`s..................what Degree puts him above anyone!! 40yrs is a long time... Like I said I have been trained by people with much more time than that!!! that doesnt make me better than anyone else!

As far as regulations go...........I personally dont care! yes I hate the Hacks & yes maybe we need something! truth is I worry about me!! those who worry so much about regulating something do it for personal gain or to better themselves in a way that they couldnt have done prior to the regulating!

1st you must remember...this is America!! right to pursue life, liberty & happiness.......along with free enterprise!! what will work here may/maynot work over there! boroughs,towns, cities, states, etc.. already follow ANSI standard...atleast some do, those I work for I make aware of the standard...untill those standards are enforced then all we are saying here doesnt matter.......ANSI...should be enough! just needs enforced!

As far as this trade getting recognized like some of the other titles mentioned, like I said....It will have to become a Degree necessary for employment in certain job fields like the others!!!!


LXT................


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> :agree2:, *pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses*...the good along with the bad!!!
> 
> I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!
> 
> ...



Sorry I just reread this and realised I missed the first paragraph. What *ADDITIONAL* costs do you mean? The only cost associated with the HRW license I posted previously is less than $20 per year. 

I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth! 

Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.

Once again I say, if you want change but don't want to be run out of town by the " big guys" then do something about it at a local level. Maybe joining ISA would be a good start. Your vote might be enough to tip the scale....


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind.
> 
> I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?





Yes it is....In Pa I can run my own home runs, connect the circuit breakers, etc.. I dont believe I can do the meter connection though??? I can do all the plumbing except for the main connect??? again I dont think so.

Again...as long as it passes code & thats if an inspector shows up to look at it, put it to you this way...I put in my footer framing to build on..called the inspector & he said whats it look like? I know!!, my contractor was like your kidding me...so he gets on the phone, describes the footer before the pour & the inspector says....sounds good..pour away!!

I feel when the codes in place are disregarded & an inspector does like what is mentioned above....heres the problem, this is the corruption Im talking about......you butter the inspectors hand & your work wont matter!

btw..... all my contractors...I knew & they all insisted on inspections & code systems to sign off on their work....I was a grunt helping them!!! thats it!!

TV, im not trying to down play your abilities or anything, Please dont get me wrong!!!....but if you`re a CA with no degree .......you are no better off than me or anyone else, you might be more knowledgeable in some areas..but thats it!! still not comparable to the other titles we discussed earlier!!



LXT................


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> Never works like that though, you can't just have a little regulation. The government always over regulates, the only thing you can do is do it as responsible as you can so the gonvernment doesn't meddle.They don't know anything about the businesses they regulate anyways and they only ask people with a one sided political agenda so I say they should stay out of it.



NEVER? In no area, anywhere, ever has there been a reasonable balance between freedom and control? Better start the revolution now then brother. 

Ok ok, I was being facetious. I still have to disagree. Either that or what I see on tv and hear from you guys living in the States is bogus. You seem to have a pretty decent place to live (almost as good as Australia) and also have regulations on food, clothing, education, cars, tools and a gajillion other things. Regulation per se is not bad, it is uncontrolled regulation that wears that badge. So fix it. Be an active voice. It is your trade, your industry and your country after all.


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

lxt said:


> I dont know TV from adam, nor you! & honestly untill I see some one in action words dont mean a thing!
> 
> My main point was in regard to one trying to depict our trade as having similar importance to certain other fields & the thought that it has similar complexities.............which it in no way does!!!!!!
> 
> ...



Oops. You said exactly what I said and thats just scary. Now here is the part that hurts. Enforcement can only be applied via ... are you ready for 
this....









regulation. Ouch. That hurt. I have not and will not suggest that the standards ALREADY in place are insufficient. They were drafted by groups of people from all over our industry with more experience and credentials than I could ever hope to gain. I have said and will continue to say that ONE component of improving our industry is to ensure EVERYBODY works to those standards. For that you need a piece of paper that says "thou shalt...." and we call those pieces of paper regulations.


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Sorry I just reread this and realised I missed the first paragraph. What *ADDITIONAL* costs do you mean? The only cost associated with the HRW license I posted previously is less than $20 per year.
> 
> I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!
> 
> ...



The additional costs???? you think making a biz confirm to a new ordinance, law, code, etc.. wont cost something???? Dude, this is America, just the paperwork aspects alone would cost "Millions" the entity regulating the field would cost "Millions"...yes jobs might be created but at whos cost.....the taxpayers thats who!! not to mention all the corrupt BS that goes along with it! We have the ANSI standard...just no enforcement!

how much do you think it would cost to "effectively enforce" the Ansi standard?? seriously!! we cant enforce enviromental pollution laws & the EPA & DEP are pretty large & well funded!! 

the practices you abandoned are good, however over here those contracts are "BID" on, they have a Spec, you bid pertaining to that spec & the low bid usually wins!! 

I am a member of the ISA & several other organizations, WHY? cuz in order to obtain some contracts it is better if you show an affiliation with them rather than not! does it make my biz better?....NO! my work ethic is & always was the same! these type contracts only make up a small% of my biz anyway!!


LXT................


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## Bearcreek (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind.
> 
> I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?



Maybe you're not familiar with residential electrical wiring so just FYI there are only three colors to worry about in the vast majority of houses; black, white and red. Being color blind would have nothing to do with it.


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> Maybe you're not familiar with residential electrical wiring so just FYI there are only three colors to worry about in the vast majority of houses; black, white and red. Being color blind would have nothing to do with it.



One of the "silly" regulations we have over here is that all would be Electricians must pass a colour recognition test before they study. I guess somebody thought getting the wires arse about could be problematic.


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## lxt (Jan 14, 2010)

We can not go out & do electrical/plumbing & other trades without a license outside our personal property (atleast not legally)! however there are questionable ways around the license!!

I heard of a few contractors selling Ho`s on stating on the permit that the home owner was performing the work!! this gets around insurance(s) as well the licenses needed to perform the job(s).

sad thing is when the properties were inspected...they passed!! now if the contractor can muster an inspection why not get the license would be my thought? but they think in this way: the license costs money, the Insurances cost money...the renewal fees & time studying for such could be better spent on something else....they dont want on the Radar, so to speak!!

what many have to remember is: alot of people do their job to make a living, they dont live for their job....there are more things in life to do!! & making this field a priority to regulate is not a.....priority!!!


LXT................


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## Bearcreek (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> One of the "silly" regulations we have over here is that all would be Electricians must pass a colour recognition test before they study. I guess somebody thought getting the wires arse about could be problematic.



That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?



If it is wired to mains, 240v, you must be certified. If there is a fire proven to be caused by wiring installed without a license you lose your house and can still be slammed with a fine on top of that.


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## jrr344 (Jan 14, 2010)

You havn't seen regulation, where I work we are regulated by; EPA, OSHA, FERC, DOT, ect...... They never stop once they start it is all about cash to them, they get all types of outrageous fines I can be sued personally for what I do not just the corp.


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## outofmytree (Jan 14, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> You havn't seen regulation, where I work we are regulated by; EPA, OSHA, FERC, DOT, ect...... They never stop once they start it is all about cash to them, they get all types of outrageous fines I can be sued personally for what I do not just the corp.



We have the same here with Worksafe(OHS), EPA, DoC, DEC and a half dozen others. Of course, in order to be fined I must first be in breach. As my crew operate to standards that is never an issue.


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## jrr344 (Jan 14, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> We have the same here with Worksafe(OHS), EPA, DoC, DEC and a half dozen others. Of course, in order to be fined I must first be in breach. As my crew operate to standards that is never an issue.



But sometimes the regs intfere with making a prophet, and I am not putting down safety but, they take things to far, I think any person should be responsible for their own safety and if they aren't that is their loss. They only real reason to have safety standards is to protect us from others. They have went way beyond that though, regulations now our like socialist governments in themselves, they tell us how to work, where to work and what work to do, they even tell us what kind of prophets are allowable to make.


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## Bermie (Jan 14, 2010)

Jumping back in here...I can see how in enormous countries like the States and Oz and even the UK...the level of beurocracy (sp?) , lobbyists, standards committees, safety committees etc. ad nauseum...has lead to top heavy regulation that is often too cumbersome for the small operator, where only the larger companies can afford to comply with everything.

We are in the enviable position here of being very small, 21sq miles, a working population in 'Landscaping' of about 800, and a unique regulatory environment...the situation is in my opinion manageable. The time between cause and effect is short. We have the advantage of having many people who have lived, worked and trained in other countries and have seen their efforts, good and bad, and so can bring that knowledge to the table as stuff to utilize and stuff to stay away from. And most of us know each other too, competitors, compatriots...!

The advantage of having industry practitioners responsible for setting standards on OURSELVES is huge. We know what goes on day to day, what will work and what will not to a large extent. We will also be able to change stuff if it becomes evident that its not working...ONLY the Occupation Advisory Committee can set standards, recommendations go from us to the Govt for them to make part of the legal framework, not the other way around.
The higest motivating factor in Gov't recommending which industries become 'regulated' is safety...safety of the practitioner, their clients and to an extent the environment. I can see the debate about chaps and chainsaw trousers being an interesting one...but debated it will be, pros and cons, by those who have to wear them! Our deliberations will cover the whole gamut of the industry, hotels, golf courses, nurseries, landscapers, arborists...!

Interestingly my insurance agent told me the largest sector of claims they get for workman's comp in the 'Landscape' industry is for chainsaw injuries...hmmm what does THAT tell me? And I don't get any break in my insurance for being certificated and qualified...doesn't strike me as fair...
A guy can come in on a plane one day ostensibly as a 'landscape gardener', not have to prove he knows one iota about the industry go to work the next, be given a machete or a chainsaw and told to go at it...how is that any good for the client, the industry or the landscape? Immigration has no requirement to ask for proof of any qualifications...just that no Bermudian wanted the job on offer!

The debate continues...


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## EdenT (Jan 14, 2010)

Bearcreek said:


> That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?



Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.


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## Bearcreek (Jan 14, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.



Are you saying that the hot and neutral lead to your friend's light were both white wires? If so that has nothing to do with the homeowner being colorblind. That's just stupidity. My point was that colorblindness does not affect a persons ability to do residential electrical wiring.


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## EdenT (Jan 15, 2010)

Yes the stupidity part of your statement is quite correct. A person with no formal training or qualifications who was pretty sure he knew what he was doing actually didn't with near fatal consequences.

Gee that sounds a lot like some tree workers don't you think. Usually recognizable by the fact that they don't know how to do anything properly or safely because they have never had formal training. Trouble is that you don't see the signs until it's too late and they have injured themselves or a co-worker. I won't let a person start up a chainsaw in my vicinity unless I KNOW they have the appropriate training. Same as I won't let anyone work on my electrical systems until they prove to me they're a licensed electrician.


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## outofmytree (Jan 15, 2010)

jrr344 said:


> But sometimes the regs intfere with making a prophet, and I am not putting down safety but, they take things to far, I think any person should be responsible for their own safety and if they aren't that is their loss. They only real reason to have safety standards is to protect us from others. They have went way beyond that though, regulations now our like socialist governments in themselves, they tell us how to work, where to work and what work to do, they even tell us what kind of prophets are allowable to make.



Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. I comply to every current regulation I am familiar with and as I survived a complete OHS overhaul in the last 12 months I would say that we are up to date. The cost was almost nil. I had to lay my hands on a couple of manuals, some MSDS and had to write a company policy. 

The idea that you are responsible only for your own safety belongs in the 19th century. As an employer I am responsible for my safety, my employees safety and the safety of anyone on my worksite. It is not difficult to do and gives me great satisfaction in KNOWING that we do good work and still keep everyone safe. Oh, and I am also profitable.

It is a fallacy that you cannot be a safe operator and be profitable. All that is required is some forethought. In fact once you make safe work a habit it is hard to go back to being reckless. Learn to sell the idea that you do it the right way not the fast way and you can win a lot of jobs. Especially from people who work in other dangerous industries. I am close to 100% on converting leads to work when I speak to guys who are as sunburned as me and have work hardened hands. We speak the same language.


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## lxt (Jan 15, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Gee that sounds a lot like some tree workers don't you think. Usually recognizable by the fact that they don't know how to do anything properly or safely because they have never had formal training. Trouble is that you don't see the signs until it's too late and they have injured themselves or a co-worker. I won't let a person start up a chainsaw in my vicinity unless I KNOW they have the appropriate training. Same as I won't let anyone work on my electrical systems until they prove to me they're a licensed electrician.



agree to a point.....but telling someone they need chainsaw classes is not gonna go over well, how about the repair side of the coin, I know a person who "dropstarts" every saw....never had an accident..YET! I always bust em for this! how are you gonna know if someone is appropriately trained on anything? really? I know guys who have passed these classes & I wouldnt let them operate a toilet!!

The point is where does it start & stop, chainsaw class, lawn mower class, hedge trimmer class, ladder classes, nail gun class, etc.... everyone must be responsible for their own safety!!!! respect for the tool you are using will go further than any safety class/video training!

Outofmytree....you are responsible to promote safety & make sure the rules are adhered to, you are not responsible for anyones safety but your own, sorry.....you might want to look at it that way, but the bottom line is; Everyone must be responsible for their own safety, you cant baby sit all day!

the fallacy of safety you speak of is kinda funny! I have worked for Utility/residential contractors: big orange, green & yellow, red white & blue, etc...they`ll follow the rules to a "T" untill production is down....then its out the window with certain safety rules.....minimum approach distances, setting out rescue gear, signs displayed, flag personnel, experienced operators, etc... are some of the common ones!!

Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient & this is the standard with many companies, How many of us have heard.... "If you dont want to do it thats fine, I`ll find someone else who will".....the underlying fact is that refusal to do something will put you in a less than favorable position!!!!

So having a company policy, rules, codes, etc.... is as good as the paper it is written on!!! whats even more funny...well not really, is when someone does get hurt... then its how did this happen? how could it been prevented? & so on! All the while the company doesnt want to take blame....why? cuz ultimately its your responsibility!!! IMHO companies need to stop Bid work practices & just have T&M....Bid work sites have the largest accident rates due to unrealistic production requirements!!!




LXT..................


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## outofmytree (Jan 15, 2010)

lxt said:


> agree to a point.....but telling someone they need chainsaw classes is not gonna go over well, how about the repair side of the coin, I know a person who "dropstarts" every saw....never had an accident..YET! I always bust em for this! how are you gonna know if someone is appropriately trained on anything? really? I know guys who have passed these classes & I wouldnt let them operate a toilet!!
> 
> The point is where does it start & stop, chainsaw class, lawn mower class, hedge trimmer class, ladder classes, nail gun class, etc.... everyone must be responsible for their own safety!!!! respect for the tool you are using will go further than any safety class/video training!
> 
> ...



Simply not true. As an employer you are responsible for your employees safety. Cut corners and say, do not provide ppe, and in the event of an accident your ass is grass.

The mindset that says, "you cannot be safe and productive" needs to be addressed. I am both. I am not Superman. I am not smarter or fitter or better than the average biz owner. So if I can be safe and productive so can anyone else. If you cannot see how this can be done then ask!!!!!


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## lxt (Jan 15, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Simply not true. As an employer you are responsible for your employees safety. Cut corners and say, do not provide ppe, and in the event of an accident your ass is grass.
> 
> The mindset that says, "you cannot be safe and productive" needs to be addressed. I am both. I am not Superman. I am not smarter or fitter or better than the average biz owner. So if I can be safe and productive so can anyone else. If you cannot see how this can be done then ask!!!!!





Now thats a Fallacy, you can equip your crew with all the safety gear in the world....SAFETY is still their responsibility!!!....what you speak of is the problem with America!!!....someone always wants someone else to take responsibility, One needs to take responsibility for ones own actions!!!

No company can micro manage to a level where each employee is overseen by a safety consultant to make sure they are "properly" adhering to "EVERY" rule!! your guys are breaking the rules!!!!! you just dont know about it & you are a fool if you think otherwise, unless you are a one man operation!

Funny how you skipped the paragraph about the "big" employers & how they work it: again.... Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient!! If you are telling me you have NEVER...NEVER, EVER..bent or broke a safety rule then Id have to say you are a LIAR!!

Personally, my Team & I do our best to adhere to all safety rules, there are times when...even safety requires you to "take the shot", sometimes there is just no completely safe way to do something.....you can only do it the safest way possible...this is were the book smart non-working types are lost!! well what does the book say....

Someone mentioned in an earlier post about have endorsements or ranks put beside their ISA CA cert. #.....I think it should state "working" or "non-working"......let them explain that to the customer...yeah im a certified arborist....but I cant actually perform the work... I am all in favor of this!!! By the way getting back on track...ANSI is the standard to follow!!



LXT...............


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## lxt (Jan 15, 2010)

lxt said:


> The additional costs???? you think making a biz confirm to a new ordinance, law, code, etc.. wont cost something???? Dude, this is America, just the paperwork aspects alone would cost "Millions" the entity regulating the field would cost "Millions"...yes jobs might be created but at whos cost.....the taxpayers thats who!! not to mention all the corrupt BS that goes along with it! We have the ANSI standard...just no enforcement!
> 
> how much do you think it would cost to "effectively enforce" the Ansi standard?? seriously!! we cant enforce enviromental pollution laws & the EPA & DEP are pretty large & well funded!!
> 
> ...




Dont know if outofmytree replied to this, would be interesting to see his take on how to enforce ANSI standards & other safety practices....at a minimal cost.....as he put it!!!!!




LXT...........


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## outofmytree (Jan 15, 2010)

lxt said:


> Now thats a Fallacy, you can equip your crew with all the safety gear in the world....SAFETY is still their responsibility!!!....what you speak of is the problem with America!!!....someone always wants someone else to take responsibility, One needs to take responsibility for ones own actions!!!
> 
> No company can micro manage to a level where each employee is overseen by a safety consultant to make sure they are "properly" adhering to "EVERY" rule!! your guys are breaking the rules!!!!! you just dont know about it & you are a fool if you think otherwise, unless you are a one man operation!
> 
> ...



You are wrong both legally and morally. If you employ someone it is your legal responsibility to ensure you have done all you can to make them and their workplace safe. Go check it out, the information isnt hard to find. Even if it were not a legal requirement it is still a moral one. I cannot fathom how you fail to see that looking out for your workmates is wrong.



> Section 8(1) of the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2000 ( OHS Act 2000) states that as an employer you ‘must ensure the health, safety and welfare at work of all the employees’. To meet your responsibilities under the OHS Act 2000, you must provide:
> 
> safe premises
> safe machinery and substances
> ...




http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/OHS/WORKCOVERSROLEINOHS/OHSRESPONSIBILITIES/Pages/default.aspx#employers



> Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient & this is the standard with many companies, How many of us have heard.... "If you dont want to do it thats fine, I`ll find someone else who will".....the underlying fact is that refusal to do something will put you in a less than favorable position!!!!



I did not respond to this paragraph because I am not a "big" employer but I will help your sort this one out too. I have worked for many employers some good and some bad. The last time I was "railroaded" into doing something I did not want to do I was 17. Since then I have worked as I see fit and refused tasks that were beyond me. I have been fired once in the 26 years since then and that was due to my own incompetence. I have received glowing references from many of these employers some of whom I had had stand up arguments over procedure with. Good employers appreciate employees with the spine to say no when it is justified. 



> Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient!! If you are telling me you have NEVER...NEVER, EVER..bent or broke a safety rule then Id have to say you are a LIAR!!



I am going to assume that you are not outright calling me a liar. That is something easily done on the internet but less readily done to my face. I can tell you I have many times done things that are unsafe. I can also say, without reservation, that I have NEVER asked anyone else to do something that puts them at risk. If there is a tricky cut to make, I make it. If there is a suspect tree to climb I climb it. However with good planning and the ability to sell your skills, it is possible to reduce the risk of hazard to less than crossing a busy road. You simply need to plan ahead.


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## outofmytree (Jan 15, 2010)

lxt said:


> Dont know if outofmytree replied to this, would be interesting to see his take on how to enforce ANSI standards & other safety practices....at a minimal cost.....as he put it!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> outofmytree.
> 
> We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.
> 
> ...





> outofmytree.
> I would suggest that the first and most obvious step would be to regulate at local govt level. Require any work on trees over a given size to be subject to the issue of a permit at a nominal value. The only persons able to gain said permit would be those businesses with the appropriate certification.





> outofmytree.
> I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!
> 
> Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.



Yes, I answered that question over a number of posts in sufficient detail for anyone who chose to read.


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## computeruser (Jan 15, 2010)

Sunrise Guy said:


> I come from an industry, the tattoo and body piercing biz, that is regulated very little, for the most part. The result: Too many shops have sprung into existence, leading to the pie being sliced too thin, then, for anyone to make a good living. The only ones to make great livings in the tree biz, consistently, are those in bed with governing bodies via sweetheart contracts that most of us do not have the finances to pursue. Strict regulation of the residential/commercial tree work market would help keep the hacks out, but many in here just can't seem to understand that. They would rather rag on and on about the hacks and this has no effect on the prevailing situation.



Except that the purpose of regulation is not to pick winners and losers, but rather to ensure that minimum safety standards are being met. There is no constitutional basis for the former, but (slightly) more of a claim for the latter, though it would seem that state-level regulation would be most appropriate, as there is no Health&Safety enumerated power granted to the federal government for it to delegate to its agencies.

The government, federal/state/local, does not exist to ensure that the pie is cut in any particular way. And really, it shouldn't, because to do so is to invite the sort of corruption you see in the 3rd world countries - one's success being contingent upon supplying adequate bribes, having the right connections, etc.

For those who wish to regulate in the interest of safety, that's one thing. For those who wish to regulate in order to change the competitive landscape in the industry, I would warn you to watch out - there is no guarantee that you're always going to be on the side making the rules.

There is no real reason to keep the hacks out, in my opinion. Their work speaks for itself - if it is crappy or unsafe, it will soon be known as such; if it is workmanlike and also happens to be cheaper than the prevailing rate in your market, well then you've got a new competitor. To try to prevent upstarts from entering the marketplace is childish and mean-spirited, really. Sell your own service and knowledge. Be smarter, better, and more competitive. And understand that some customers are only concerned about price, and since there will always be this customer demographic, there will always be contractors whose business model is set up to cater to them.

I recently hired some work done on a number of large oaks overhanging my house. I solicited a handful of bids, but ultimately went with the second most expensive bid because the company is run by an actual certified arborist who knew what he was talking about when he came out to evaluate the trees and give me an estimate. His firm has a good reputation in the community. His insurance coverage met my requirements. His climbers were capable of stringing an intelligent sentence together (in English) when I was chatting with them before they started work. His equipment, though not brand new, was clean and it was obvious that they took pride in their work and their tools. Communication before the job started was very good. The job was done quickly, on time, at cost, and clean-up was handled well. They acknowledged a bit of damage that a branch did to my gutters, and offered to address it; I declined the offer, since it was so minor, but did appreciate the gesture. I would recommend this firm to others, gladly.


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## lxt (Jan 15, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> You are wrong both legally and morally. If you employ someone it is your legal responsibility to ensure you have done all you can to make them and their workplace safe. Go check it out, the information isnt hard to find. Even if it were not a legal requirement it is still a moral one. I cannot fathom how you fail to see that looking out for your workmates is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You only mentioned part of the act pertaining to Osha, & made it sound like more than what it is!!!

You are responsible to *Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC..* to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA, 

Morally do you need to watch out for others? YES, as far as the public goes ones work area is to be safegaurded as per what the regulations state, am I responsible for the car speeding through the work zone (set up properly) who hits my worker...gets out of his car & slips on a patch of ice & then hurts himself.......NO!!! he broke the law...not me!! according to the way you think I would be responsible!!

You should perhaps read some case law pertaining to WC filings & just how much resposibility "a reasonable person" , "employer" or "employee" can be held accountable for!!

You are not a "big" employer....so what! regulation means everyone is treated the same...I was giving you real life experiences based on what those who may aide in laying down the rules for the rest of us have done!

Yes...If you would have told me you never broke the rules I would call you a Liar.......!! on the internet or to your face...doesnt matter to me! cuz I know everyone has broke the rules somewhere sometime!! & what big companies have you worked for that APPRECIATE you telling them NO, im not doing that? cuz over here my man.....you would be jammed!!

It is apparent you dont know how the American system fully works, you base everything off your country.....here there are loop holes for everything, Believe me......the rulings & Law are a little different as far as responsibilty goes!!


LXT...................


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## outofmytree (Jan 16, 2010)

computeruser said:


> Except that the purpose of regulation is not to pick winners and losers, but rather to ensure that minimum safety standards are being met. There is no constitutional basis for the former, but (slightly) more of a claim for the latter, though it would seem that state-level regulation would be most appropriate, as there is no Health&Safety enumerated power granted to the federal government for it to delegate to its agencies.
> 
> The government, federal/state/local, does not exist to ensure that the pie is cut in any particular way. And really, it shouldn't, because to do so is to invite the sort of corruption you see in the 3rd world countries - one's success being contingent upon supplying adequate bribes, having the right connections, etc.
> 
> ...



Right on the nail. I make the same sorts of judgements when I hire in others and present my business the same way. Know your work, do it well, charge a fair rate and go home safe.


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## clearance (Jan 16, 2010)

EdenT said:


> Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.



Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.


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## outofmytree (Jan 16, 2010)

lxt said:


> You only mentioned part of the act pertaining to Osha, & made it sound like more than what it is!!!
> 
> You are responsible to *Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC..* to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA,
> 
> ...





> outofmytree.
> 
> We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.
> 
> ...



Try reading it again slowly. Especially the red part.



> lxt.
> 
> dont be fooled by my Bio, I am 2nd generation in tree care, while my age is not where you are I have been taught by many with much more time than you have...I respect the time, teaching & love by those such as yourself greatly!!! most of my time is in the field, hands on!



Reach into your vast experience that you have posted about and bring out a solution. As you rightly pointed out it is your country and your industry. Surely you have some thoughts on how it may improve?


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## outofmytree (Jan 16, 2010)

clearance said:


> Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.



How do you get beheaded by electricity?:monkey:


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## clearance (Jan 16, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> How do you get beheaded by electricity?:monkey:



I thought you would know what I meant, but funnily enough-there was a thread here some time back, and another thread asking if it was true about just that. The story goes that a guy was climbing a tree close to a high voltage power line. He leaned back and his neck touched the line and burned his head off, his body fell to the ground. Later someone had to knock his head off with a pole. This was here, swear to God, not making it up, people swore it was true. Now its late a night, maybe I sound like a total pos but its too funny, true or not. I am going to hell for that, I know.:jawdrop:


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## EdenT (Jan 16, 2010)

clearance said:


> Your friend was shocked, not electrocuted. That means killed by electricity. Like beheaded, or hung, or executed, that type of thing.



Thanks for the clarification clearance. He was shocked, just as I was by your gruesome anecdote. Oh hang on, that might be nauseated....


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

lxt said:


> > You are responsible to *Supply, Train, Enforce, Adhere to, Insure, ETC..* to the best of your ability as a company!!! You are not & I`ll repeat it again you are not resposible for anyones safety other than your own...In AMERICA,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bermie (Jan 16, 2010)

Whoa. TVet...take it easy!!

I am actually quite enjoying the back and forth between lxt and oomt...no need to descend into petty name calling, each chap has his position and point and so far they are conducting a fairly reasonable exchange...

Chill out man...oomt seems more than capable of holding his own!


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

Bermie said:


> Whoa. TVet...take it easy!!
> 
> I am actually quite enjoying the back and forth between lxt and oomt...:



who died and made you a mod? This thread isn't solely for your entertainment alone. You are JUST another poster out there in cyberspace.


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## Bermie (Jan 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> who died and made you a mod? This thread isn't solely for your entertainment alone. You are JUST another poster out there in cyberspace.



okaaayyyy, backing away slowly...peace brother


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

Bermie said:


> okaaayyyy, backing away slowly...peace brother



My wife is real good at playing the victim when she is wrong too.


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## lxt (Jan 16, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Try reading it again slowly. Especially the red part.
> 
> 
> 
> Reach into your vast experience that you have posted about and bring out a solution. As you rightly pointed out it is your country and your industry. Surely you have some thoughts on how it may improve?





I have read the "red" part....you have failed to answer how we enforce the Ansi standards we already have????? you have failed to mention where this Money will come from???? you have failed to realize... that more dont care than do care & therefore our field is not a "current" priority!!

IN MY VAST EXPERIENCE......I dont know how many times I can keep telling this guy this.... Untill our field has a degree associated with it making the CA credential a "necessity" to have for work in this field......& to have the ability to enforce rules that already exist....then all we are discussing here doesnt mean crap!

As mean & cruel as some will find this: our field doesnt hold that much of a priority for regulation, enforcement or to become a degree course....if it truly ranked with...say a Nurse, then there would be courses at colleges offering Associate degrees, etc... & the CA wouldnt be "certified" it would be a mandatory License!!! here in PA an LPN.....even has a degree associated with it!!

Your mind & heart might be in the right place but here in the states it takes money to implement things, to obtain money to put forth any type of license, degree program or other is not gonna be a burden the American Tax Payer is gonna foot................So untill you figure out where the $$$$ will come from to do that which you are stating then your point is a moot one at best!

so the 1,2,3s you have mentioned......goodluck with that, we already have training for tree workers along with knowledge based studies! Who may work for gain or profit by regulation I have already explained to you several times. 
Public education has been an ongoing thing that ISA, TCIA & the Arbor day foundation have been doing for years........they can only do what the $$$ lets em do!!

SOooooo until you come up with those solutions...then things here will keep on keeping on!!


LXT................


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## lxt (Jan 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> lxt said:
> 
> 
> > What a patently stooopit statement. You claim intelligence but you are dumb as a rock. You are a long winded blowhard (assclown was mentioned by another poster recently in a thread of the exact same subject). You are likely a miserable soul MIRED in mediocrity. Please learn how to spell or get spell check.
> ...


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## mckeetree (Jan 16, 2010)

LXT, sometimes people can make an ass out of themselves but you abuse the privilege. Even if I wasn't in this business I wouldn't hire you to take my trash out. I have seen bums on the street with more class than you.


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## ozzy42 (Jan 16, 2010)

We need less Gov. involvement in our lives ,not more.


Long live personal freedoms ,and personal responsibility.


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

lxt said:


> treevet said:
> 
> 
> > I own a tree company & operate it, I am LCTT certified...thats line clearance ole boy I started right out of high school at 18 apprenticed through the local union working for big orange, I have worked for several employers by way of a multi-employer contract.........I have ran crew for Davey & lewis along with others!
> ...


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## rob b (Jan 16, 2010)

Easy on the line clearence asplundh employees i work for them . I have two associate degrees and a ba in plant science. We take down some of the worst trees around. This guy might be a tool but all of us are not. We have more rules and regulations than we need usually these are a result of to many untrained idiots hurting themselves. IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE TRY IGNORANCE !!!!!


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> Easy on the line clearence asplundh employees i work for them . I have two associate degrees and a ba in plant science. We take down some of the worst trees around. This guy might be a tool but all of us are not. We have more rules and regulations than we need usually these are a result of to many untrained idiots hurting themselves. IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS EXPENSIVE TRY IGNORANCE !!!!!



Good post and sorry to associate you with this clown.


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## rob b (Jan 16, 2010)

As the old saying goes opinions are like aholes everyone has one and they all stink. Thats what we're all here for right?


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> As the old saying goes opinions are like aholes everyone has one and they all stink. Thats what we're all here for right?



Always heard that one (in the Marine Corps) with excuses substituted for opinions but I suppose that has some merit as well.


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## deeker (Jan 16, 2010)

mckeetree said:


> LXT, sometimes people can make an ass out of themselves but you abuse the privilege. Even if I wasn't in this business I wouldn't hire you to take my trash out. I have seen bums on the street with more class than you.



:agree2:

Unable to rep you for now.....great post.

Anybody got some rep for McKeetree??? It has been well earned.


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## deeker (Jan 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> Always heard that one (in the Marine Corps) with excuses substituted for opinions but I suppose that has some merit as well.



Thanks for your service!!

Semper Fi


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## deeker (Jan 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> As the old saying goes opinions are like aholes everyone has one and they all stink. Thats what we're all here for right?



:agree2:


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## jomoco (Jan 16, 2010)

Oh great!

The very proponents of de-regulation in govt, are now throwin down red, white and blue for stricter regulation of the tree industry?

If you can't distinguish your work from a cheap hack's, and find a client base willing to pay for your services?

Find another line of work darling!

Is peeker even qualified to post in the commercial arborist forum?

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

I think there is confusion in this thread in regards to lumping together govt. regulation and arborists regulation (ISA) and associated credentials.


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## EdenT (Jan 16, 2010)

jomoco said:


> Oh great!
> 
> The very proponents of de-regulation in govt, are now throwin down red, white and blue for stricter regulation of the tree industry?
> 
> ...



Given your position on WTC accidents I am not to sure what this post is about apart from being inflammatory. 

I am an employee. I am responsible for my own and everyone else's safety. If I see someone whether it is the boss or the brand new laborer doing something that is going to get them or someone else hurt, I stop them. If I don't stop them in time they will be covered by insurance or WC as the boss is no fool.

But I would much rather have stopped them and prevented an accident than knowing they will never dance again because their left stump is too short.

If a car speeds through our work site (and I have had one parked in the chipper), and strikes an employee then until such a time as the drivers estate (because I will  em') settles the claim for damages by the employee, then they will be covered by WC which is the bosses responsibility.

If I send them out on the road without hi-vis and traffic management in place then it is my responsibility. I assume my fellow employees are lambs when it comes to danger.

I want mandatory training so that the industry I chose to work in evolves and becomes more respected. Then when I tell people the tree in the backyard cannot be topped they accept my verdict instead of getting some idiot with a chainsaw and no ethics to do the butchery for them. As an industry we are well respected for our brawn, it is well past time we were respected for our brains as well.

Every day you take part in logistics management, traffic management, physics in about half a dozen different fields, mathematics, chemistry, biology, botany, mechanics, etc. Then throw in climbing which probably less than 1% of the population is even capable of doing, and only 1% of that would have the guts to do it.

As far as the clearance guys go they too are professionals. Us guys who do amenity tree work may not like their methods or results but they have a job to do and achieve amazing production in a very hazardous situation doing a job that has to be done. I would rather see a topped tree under a HV line than a burned out forest or house because a tree did contact a line.


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## RedlineIt (Jan 16, 2010)

For lxt:

Re ANSI standards: Are they voluntary? Or not? 

Re OSHA: Explain the difference between an Act and a Regulation.


Jomoco, it would be exceptionally strange if there were more stringent quals required to post here than to climb and cut, don't you think?

RedlineIt


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## jomoco (Jan 16, 2010)

RedlineIt said:


> For lxt:
> 
> Re ANSI standards: Are they voluntary? Or not?
> 
> ...



I just don't get it when guys like peeker and tv get all red, white and blue ronnie raygun deregulation rules in one forum, then waltz on over to commercial tree care and spout the exact opposite without being called out as blowhard hypocrites? That's all.

jomoco


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## rob b (Jan 16, 2010)

I think it comes down to this, passing tests and following rules is easy, making a good living and having a successful business is hard work!


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

jomoco said:


> I just don't get it when guys like peeker and tv get all red, white and blue ronnie raygun deregulation rules in one forum, then waltz on over to commercial tree care and spout the exact opposite without being called out as blowhard hypocrites? That's all.
> 
> jomoco



Be more specific joke a moke. As usual haven't the foggiest idea what the hell you are blowing your stinkin pie hole about.


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> I think it comes down to this, passing tests and following rules is easy, making a good living and having a successful business is hard work!



It ALL has to be earned. Nobody is giving you anything. If you got to pay the dues you can't worry about the big "money grab" or be a tightwad scrooge like jokeamoke. Pass the test, Pay the cert fee, take the classes and stay certed. It is a million miles from what it was 4 decades ago and contrary to what LXT says, there is likely no one that has been at it longer than I have. Hey way back then even the good guys did the wrong thing. They just did not know any better but now they do.

Why do you think that is. Not just these forums.....the first forum was the ISA's in 97.


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## EdenT (Jan 16, 2010)

rob b said:


> I think it comes down to this, passing tests and following rules is easy, making a good living and having a successful business is hard work!



I think that is the point rob, a successful business is harder work once you have passed the tests and follow the rules.

The problem is that the guys who don't follow the rules or know what they are meant to be doing have an easier time of it because someone else has to pay the price for their ineptitude. Why should all off the guys who work harder to obtain more knowledge and qualification be tarred with the same brush that the cowboy with a pickup and a chainsaw so rightly deserves.

The first step towards a world with better tree's is recognizing that there is such a thing as a recognizable tree expert and then marketing this concept to joe public.


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## jomoco (Jan 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> lxt said:
> 
> 
> > What a patently stooopit statement. You claim intelligence but you are dumb as a rock. You are a long winded blowhard (assclown was mentioned by another poster recently in a thread of the exact same subject). You are likely a miserable soul MIRED in mediocrity. Please learn how to spell or get spell check.
> ...


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

EdenT said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

jomoco said:


> If you can't compete out perform hacks then why are you complaining about them?



I'm doing just fine thank you very much. You on the other hand might be able to drive an 86 Toyo pick up instead of that POS 85 you drive around now if you took some positive steps.

I have 9 Trucks, massive amounts of equipment, a nice house in the suburbs, drive around in a new BMW station wagon and put 4 kids thru college......just with my company.....myself...and 1 groundman that doesn't climb. Might sound condescending but I am proud of what I have done so far and thankful for my profession and the organizations that support it.

You sourgrapes guys are a miserable lot I surmise.


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## clearance (Jan 16, 2010)

[QUOTE}



Let's have a chant....ISA.....ISA......ISA....

It is not perfect but it is the best we have, it is getting better [/QUOTE]

Chanting is for the non thinkers.

How about the ISA get some integrity, police thier members, quit being money grabbers and so forth? Some ISA types here call me a hack because I climb with spurs, meanwhile I am supervised by ISA people. Stuff like that, pathetic.


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## jomoco (Jan 16, 2010)

You just admitted to being for it yu goof ball!

Poor TV needs the ISA/GOVT to compete in a free natnl market?

Poor darling.

jomoco


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## treevet (Jan 16, 2010)

jomoco said:


> You just admitted to being for it yu goof ball!
> 
> Poor TV needs the ISA/GOVT to compete in a free natnl market?
> 
> ...



wtf is a natnl market sweetie. speak de english.

Where's your boy LXT? Or are you the same guy....LXT in the daytime and Jomoco in the evening lol.


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## mckeetree (Jan 16, 2010)

clearance said:


> [QUOTE}
> 
> Some ISA types here call me a hack because I climb with spurs



Based on your post as far as myself and anybody else at my company could ever tell you are a hack.


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## jomoco (Jan 16, 2010)

treevet said:


> wtf is a natnl market sweetie. speak de english.
> 
> Where's your boy LXT? Or are you the same guy....LXT in the daytime and Jomoco in the evening lol.



Within the US einstein.

jomoco


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## RedlineIt (Jan 16, 2010)

jomoco,

I just don't get it when guys like peeker and tv get all red, white and blue ronnie raygun deregulation rules in one forum, then waltz on over to commercial tree care and spout the exact opposite without being called out as blowhard hypocrites? That's all.

jomoco 

I assume you mean the Politics Forum.

Well, then, have at them there, not here. This is Commercial Tree Care and Climbing.

RedlineIt


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## deeker (Jan 16, 2010)

Looks as though one of the important (NUTJOBS) on this thread objects to my posts.

Well damn, jerkamole....I forgot my place.

Anyone want to buy my sawmill, and several used Stihl's??? An 088, 0380AVM and several others....even a JRed 920....

Just for you jerkinthemole....I make my living with my saws......

And unlike jerkinthemole....

I sign my name.

Kevin


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## RedlineIt (Jan 16, 2010)

Hiya Deeker!

I love the Psalms too!

Psalms 106:29 "As they were causing offense by their dealings, a scourge broke out amomg them."

Gotta love the the Bible, in thirty seconds you can find #### more pious than the last #######!

RedlineIt


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## outofmytree (Jan 16, 2010)

lxt said:


> I have read the "red" part....you have failed to answer *how we enforce the Ansi standards we already have*????? you have failed to mention where this Money will come from???? you have failed to realize... that more dont care than do care & therefore our field is not a "current" priority!!
> 
> IN MY VAST EXPERIENCE......I dont know how many times I can keep telling this guy this.... Untill our field has a degree associated with it making the CA credential a "necessity" to have for work in this field......& to have the ability to enforce rules that already exist....then all we are discussing here doesnt mean crap!
> 
> ...





> outofmytree.
> 
> We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.
> 
> ...





> outofmytree.
> I would suggest that the first and most obvious step would be to regulate at local govt level. Require any work on trees over a given size to be subject to the issue of a permit at a nominal value. The only persons able to gain said permit would be those businesses with the appropriate certification.



Read item 2 again. Then read the quoted section above. I did think this idea was simple enough to digest but in fairness I did only post this 3 previous times.  



> outofmytree.
> I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!
> 
> Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.



If a local govt/city council follows this simple proven idea the money saved would be more than adequate to cover any costs associated with inspecting work after issue of the above work permit and confirm it meets standards. I have no fear of someone inspecting my work in fact, if you care to look in the video forum, I am proud of my work and take video's to show future clients. So the concept of a city employed arborist checking out my work is like free advertising!

If more companies work to the existing standards then everyone wins. We have healthier trees that are safer for our kids to play under and are a long term asset for everyone living in that street. 

I am sure there are many other ways to promote better work. Don't you think it's time you threw out an idea for discussion?


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 17, 2010)

clearance said:


> [QUOTE}
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chanting is for the non thinkers.

How about the ISA get some integrity, police thier members, quit being money grabbers and so forth? Some ISA types here call me a hack because I climb with spurs, meanwhile I am supervised by ISA people. Stuff like that, pathetic.[/QUOTE]

You can throw them spurs away once you start at Bartlett.


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## clearance (Jan 17, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Chanting is for the non thinkers.
> 
> How about the ISA get some integrity, police thier members, quit being money grabbers and so forth? Some ISA types here call me a hack because I climb with spurs, meanwhile I am supervised by ISA people. Stuff like that, pathetic.



You can throw them spurs away once you start at Bartlett.[/QUOTE]

Ain't gonna happen, heard enough already from decent people here. Anyways, what about BC Hydro, all of the veg guys ISA certified, watching people climb with spurs to trim, always?


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## BC WetCoast (Jan 17, 2010)

clearance said:


> You can throw them spurs away once you start at Bartlett.



Ain't gonna happen, heard enough already from decent people here. Anyways, what about BC Hydro, all of the veg guys ISA certified, watching people climb with spurs to trim, always?[/QUOTE]

Are they ISA certified or CUA? 

Anyway, you obviously haven't read the ISA Code of Ethics, which governs how a CA should practice. 

I quote a couple of items

Certified Arborist compliance with all organizational rules, policies and legal
requirements. Certificants and candidates must:
1. Comply with all applicable laws, regulations, policies and ethical standards
governing professional practice of arboriculture.
2. Comply with all accepted professional standards related to arboriculture
practice, including national practice standards and policies.

The entire Code of Ethics - http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/ISACertifiedArboristCodeofEthics.pdf

By reading item 2, you will note that it states accepted professional standards including national practice standards. I see nothing that says using spurs when doing powerline clearance pruning is wrong, if it is according to accepted professional standards. 

I suspect that many on this board haven't read the Code either and while the ISA promotes the use of spurless climbing to prune residential trees, it makes no comment on those trees that are pruned for line clearance. Given how these trees must be pruned in order to meet the standards of the contract, spurring them is the least of their problem.

It's time to give up your rant on Veg Managers who are CA authorizing the use of spurs.


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## lxt (Jan 17, 2010)

Im right here treevet...I think you & mckee do the wrap around while patting each other on the back!!

My name is Doug & yes I do have a lawn care/Landscape section in my Biz, I have a crew of 4 that take care of that side of the Biz, I work the tree side but oversee it all, I have a stump grinding crew too!!

wheres your site granpa? what is your age? Im thinking in reality you`re 65+ which would explain your bitterness, your old, SSI is low, medicare dont cover enough, Va wont help ya, etc... You like to read...good for you, keep reading (put those bi`s on)...when you feel spry....Im not hard to find!!!

Cmon on over & teach me big boy!! If you have half of what you say & have the talent to back your old toothless azz....then Ill listen to what you have to say...

Till then......guys like you & Mckee are a dime a dozen...big mouths with no talent, show us something!! a site, pics of work...something!

I did not wont this to become a name calling, degrading thread... so I apologize for such, however...........those not from America!!! dont know & therefore couldnt even begin to understand how things here work!!!!!

Those such as Treevet & Mckee........are lttle kids in the playground..yelling pick me, picke me!! no one ever does or did, we all know why!!!

I dont wish to continue with the way this is going, untill it becomes a discussion......Im pretty much done! Its about regulatory control over our field........Not verbally bash each other! 

One poster asked me to describe Ansi & explain Act & regulations & such......Im not ignoring you!! but why, really.... someone will post a dictionary version another the law version someone else the spirit of the law version & so on......just to start another battle of words!!

Bottom line is....this is America & if its my property that I pay taxes for...then who is anyone to regulate what I can/cannot do to my tree(s), lawn, shrubs etc... as long as it doesnt adversely affect anyone! Businesses are already regulated by labor laws & such, Ansi is our guide??? My biz is registered...& if anyone wants to come out & watch us...thats fine!! I worked a state park contract under DCNR supervision........you think it gets much stricter, BTW....the supervisor was an ISA CA & I wasnt at that time...He told me my knowledge & plan was better than the other companies who had ISA CA`s..............So I got the job, Go Figure!!

I wish the best to all here, be safe & be careful!!!

LXT..........


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## lxt (Jan 17, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Read item 2 again. Then read the quoted section above. I did think this idea was simple enough to digest but in fairness I did only post this 3 previous times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have read your 3 time posting....... you still dont get it!!! & im not gonna continue to post the same thing in regards to your posts! It doesnt get through to you!! hell come over to the US & fix us...its so easy..I mean hell....some of you guys have all the answers

I did give you what needs to be done to a certain degree!!! again I`ll ask?

*WHERE IS THE $$$$ GOING TO COME FROM*...you are good at saying this & that..........be real whew.......Again....Trees are not a priority nor tree care services that the Govt will impose mandatory regulations on how biz`s perform tree care functions!!! if you think so...Good for you!!

Funny......most want to use climate change as a way for regulation, these are the same azzes who on political threads would claim CC doesnt exist & Al gore is full of it!! hypocrites!! they use what they can when it profits for them!!! but would bash a certain party for doing the same!!!

Oomt, good luck...be safe & careful in what you do!!


LXT..............


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## lxt (Jan 17, 2010)

treevet said:


> I have 9 Trucks, massive amounts of equipment, a nice house in the suburbs, drive around in a new BMW station wagon and put 4 kids thru college......just with my company.....myself...and 1 groundman that doesn't climb. Might sound condescending but I am proud of what I have done so far and thankful for my profession and the organizations that support .




And no website!! show us oh great treevet of the heavens.....Cause you are full of sh:censored:t, you did all this in the ohio market??? c`mon show us the equipment!!! you have so much!! hell that would be a division in line clearance................

with just you & 1 ground guy?? then what do you need 9 trucks for?  even if the 4 kids, old lady you & the ground guy worked....that would still leave 2 trucks sitting? And im a blowhard????? you sir can exaggerate with the best of em !!!!

what a laugh you just gave me :greenchainsaw:


LXT...............


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## treevet (Jan 17, 2010)

lxt said:


> And no website!! show us oh great treevet of the heavens.....Cause you are full of sh:censored:t, you did all this in the ohio market??? c`mon show us the equipment!!! you have so much!! hell that would be a division in line clearance................
> 
> with just you & 1 ground guy?? then what do you need 9 trucks for?  even if the 4 kids, old lady you & the ground guy worked....that would still leave 2 trucks sitting? And im a blowhard????? you sir can exaggerate with the best of em !!!!
> 
> ...



Don't wet your pants boy.

They all get used including a dump trailer, a tilt trailer for my new Dingo skid steer, 2 stump grinders and 2 woodchippers, a spray rig, a TW5 with 30 ft. conveyor, and around 12 plus good running stihl saws etc etc. Makes the job easier to have all of this and I love to buy stuff.

You lay down 50 bucks in front of this forum and I will post picts of every one of them. You'll see some of em on here....www.shawtreesurgeons.com

Don't think there is any equipment on your dad's site is there?


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## lxt (Jan 17, 2010)

thats a nice website you got!! & dont worry I wont wet my self, LOL

On MY site! there will be a video coming...showing the League in action! & my dad just might be on there....

C`mon vet $50 bucks........thats chump change for you!! LOL

Now....Ill alert you for when the Vid is up n running......strap on them depends, take your laxatives & watch how the big boys play!!!....Just kidding..Looks like you have a nice site & toys...



LXT......................


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## treevet (Jan 17, 2010)

I'll be sitting by the computer waiting breathlessly til the vid makes its debut


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## lxt (Jan 17, 2010)

treevet said:


> I'll be sitting by the computer waiting breathlessly til the vid makes its debut



Hell dont wait.....I got a nice big sycamore tmrw & a row of osage tues & wed...............come on out & play!!! I work too much at my biz to take pic`s all the time.......Vid should be out in march/april its a 30 second or 1minute still shot type of thing...IDK, I just do the work & trust my rep in the ad dept.....she has done a good job for me so far!!! have to set a date for the pic`s to be taken!!

I wouldnt want you to wait that long at your age, let alone remember what we discussed here in january!..........LOL!! just kidding with ya!!

Take care treevet, enjoy your family & be safe!

LXT.........


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## clearance (Jan 17, 2010)

BC WetCoast said:


> Ain't gonna happen, heard enough already from decent people here. Anyways, what about BC Hydro, all of the veg guys ISA certified, watching people climb with spurs to trim, always?



Are they ISA certified or CUA? 

Anyway, you obviously haven't read the ISA Code of Ethics, which governs how a CA should practice. 

I quote a couple of items

Certified Arborist compliance with all organizational rules, policies and legal
requirements. Certificants and candidates must:
1. Comply with all applicable laws, regulations, policies and ethical standards
governing professional practice of arboriculture.
2. Comply with all accepted professional standards related to arboriculture
practice, including national practice standards and policies.

The entire Code of Ethics - http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/ISACertifiedArboristCodeofEthics.pdf

By reading item 2, you will note that it states accepted professional standards including national practice standards. I see nothing that says using spurs when doing powerline clearance pruning is wrong, if it is according to accepted professional standards. 

I suspect that many on this board haven't read the Code either and while the ISA promotes the use of spurless climbing to prune residential trees, it makes no comment on those trees that are pruned for line clearance. Given how these trees must be pruned in order to meet the standards of the contract, spurring them is the least of their problem.

It's time to give up your rant on Veg Managers who are CA authorizing the use of spurs.[/QUOTE]

Some veg coordinators are CUAs as well as ISA certified, a few. They are all ISA certified. So the ISA makes no comment on the use of spurs for line clearance, but does for residential trees. What about the many trees that are in someones front or back yard, and also by the powerline? Are they peoerline trees, or are they residential trees?

I also take issue with your comment about spurs being the least of the issues, given the way they are pruned for clearance. CUAs in BC are taught to make proper cuts. Dr. Shigos yellow book is handed to you at school, and it is a good book.


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## fishercat (Jan 17, 2010)

*treevet and lxt......................*

both of you should make friends and be damn glad you have work!

lots of us don't. no matter how good we are.


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## treevet (Jan 17, 2010)

fishercat said:


> both of you should make friends and be damn glad you have work!
> 
> lots of us don't. no matter how good we are.




We're good and I am gonna give him a ride to high school tomorrow.


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## fishercat (Jan 17, 2010)

*glad to hear it.*



treevet said:


> We're good and I am gonna give him a ride to high school tomorrow.



i was gonna offer to do both your jobs while you bickered.


:hmm3grin2orange:


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## treevet (Jan 17, 2010)

just an ole fashion pissin contest and, like anything else, it has an end. More fun than not.

But thanks for the offer.


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## treevet (Jan 18, 2010)

Back on topic....why don't we want gummit taking control of our profession?

They take everything too far that may start with good intentions or at least good propaganda.

Look at public assistance for the poor.....the "poor" have totally taken over a huge luxury apartment complex near my place of business. They walk up and down the road by my lot with their pants dragging on the ground as they cannot afford a vehicle yet they live in luxury and I mean luxury housing. At first it was section 8 housing then I guess last year they allowed it to be anywhere instead of just assigned areas. They bring their associated with poverty crime and everyone runs away like it was the plague eventually essentially moving the ghetto with them to where ever they go.

Now we are going to have Obama health care where we people that work hard pay for those that cannot afford health care or in most cases don't want to work for it or anything else.

Both of these examples involve "reparations" Imo and there is many opportunities for personal interests or favoritism in our profession when Uncle Sam or the local magistrate gets into our biz.

A good example I guess could be govt. getting involved with licensing motor vehicles and keeping drunken stoned incompetent drivers from killing the sober competent ones and collecting registration and licensing fees for betterment of roads etc. but this is one drop in the bucket in comparison to all they screw up.

What are some of the things they can screw up when they take over? Don't think this is a dream because almost any forum you go on people that are in govt. positions discuss the work that is in progress to do this and my government that I am familiar with in my locale by being on an Urban Forestry Board is creeping step by step into peoples private trees. 

In England I read recently....any tree that you can see even part of from any public venue or building is considered a public tree and thus subject to government regulation.


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## lxt (Jan 18, 2010)

fishercat said:


> both of you should make friends and be damn glad you have work!
> 
> lots of us don't. no matter how good we are.




We did......I agree with ya!! Treevet is a classy guy & I respect what he has done, doing & will do!! I should be working now....little wet to play in the sycamore today, rescheduled for later this week!!

LOL, I`ll catch the bus to school tmrw. thats pretty good!! & the start shaving thing....you got me good!! 

ok, onto the thread topic!!!


LXT...........


LXT................


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## EdenT (Jan 18, 2010)

Yes I agree. If the government took over the ISA membership fees would skyrocket, unless you were unemployed or a member of a minority, and services would decline.

What is required, is that an org like the ISA be controlled by tree workers and be mandated by government to enforce compliance to a set of standards.

Gee that was easy to type!

Of course what those standards were and how they were enforced would be up to the representative governing body of the ISA. Of course there is possibility of corruption. Of course there is a chance of failure. But any chance is better than having to listen to everybody moan about sub standard work in the industry (and see it myself).

Yes, of course I have considered the possibility that I may be talking out of my butt, damn left wing pinko that I am!


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## outofmytree (Jan 18, 2010)

lxt said:


> I have read your 3 time posting....... you still dont get it!!! & im not gonna continue to post the same thing in regards to your posts! It doesnt get through to you!! hell come over to the US & fix us...its so easy..I mean hell....some of you guys have all the answers
> 
> I did give you what needs to be done to a certain degree!!! again I`ll ask?
> 
> ...



Honestly I think you are being obtuse for the sake of it. The money saved on needless repeat topping is more than enough to cover the cost of hiring an appropriately skilled arborist to inspect trees after work is done according to the permit requested. It doesnt get much simpler than that. I don't know what wages would run to there but here the council saved just shy of a million and their arb costs them a hundred thou. That's a lot of change left over. They used it to pay for staged removals of over pruned trees and plant new specimens that are the right species for the location. Imagine how much money appropriate planting can save in the long term. 

Let me illustrate the point with a few links just so you know I am talking about real places and people.

The city of Stirling is a good example of broad spectrum housing. They cover suburbs that are for millionaires and suburbs that are rental properties only. This link is to their current street tree policy. http://www.stirling.wa.gov.au/home/development/Roads+and+Footpaths/Street+Trees.htm These guys are still operating on tree pruning programs that written over 50 years ago. Or perhaps they were written last week and the minds that conceived them are still in the 1950's.... I dunno. They have this great program that talks about planting a million trees by 2020. Sadly they still butcher the 500, 000 plus street trees that are their responsibility to manage.

This is one typical street in Inglewood 
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=inglewood+perth+WA&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=54.23735,78.837891&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Inglewood+Western+Australia&ll=-31.919438,115.882842&spn=0.000801,0.001203&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=-31.919299,115.882681&panoid=7t-N_ecJKZVZNn5JKR5LXg&cbp=12,139.58,,0,9.88 where _Lophostemon confertus_ (brush box) were planted decades ago as street trees. Firstly why pick a tree that grows over 20 metres high in local conditions to plant under power lines that are 5 metres high? Or if you prefer, why not, after the first half dozen toppings, do the math and remove that tree and plant a native (brush box is from 5000km away) that grows to 4 metres like _Callistemon viminalis_(weeping bottlebrush). Sadly once you start topping it becomes a disease. If you rotate that street view and look closely at the trees on the side of the road without power lines you can see they have been repeatedly topped too. Why? Because they are too big!

Now lets use these real life trees as examples. Lets say that this council spends just $50 per tree to prune them. I know many that must be pruned EVERY year but lets be cautious and say it is every second year. So, 500,000 trees at $50 each is $25 000 000 every 2 years or $12 500 000 per year. You can buy a bottle brush sapling 2 metres tall for $150 if you buy them 1 at a time. If you buy them 1000 at a time you would save enough on the price of the tree to pay for the labour to plant them. So in 6 years ($50 every second year remember) you can completely pay for the new tree which will then take at least 20 years to get close to the lowest power lines if indeed it ever gets there at all. This link is a row of these trees all of which are now over 20 years old and, coincidentally, all of which are owned by the city of Stirling. http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=beach+road+girrawheen+WA&sll=-31.919299,115.882681&sspn=0.000806,0.001203&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Beach+Rd,+Girrawheen+Western+Australia+6061&ll=-31.84764,115.834769&spn=0.000778,0.001203&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=-31.84774,115.834638&panoid=TsS8-7lHsnhiVrGCfYkHBg&cbp=12,263.85,,0,6.91 If the Google photograph was taken in October the trees would look like this 







So back to the math one more time. If it costs 6 years worth of pruning to plant 2 metres specimens but you then have 20 years of no pruning required how much money did that cost? It didn't cost ANYTHING!!!!! In fact the city just saved, over the course of 20 years, 
*$125 000 000* 

I hope that is now clear enough. It is possible for local government to manage trees far better than they do. In order for these changes to take place there needs to be new regulations. What sort of regulation and how it would be applied will vary from country to country but they will be necessary.

Isaac Newton told us "An object in motion will stay in motion and an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an external force". Or as I say to my children "If nothing changes then nothing changes".


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## lxt (Jan 18, 2010)

I agree with what Treevet said, Govt. involvement wouldnt be good.....I am currently in the process of getting my (ITQ) invitation to quote....ready for the new up coming state contract, they have a minority section in there thats ridiculous!!

Basically, it would allow any minority operated biz a much better opportunity to be granted a contract......as long as they meet the minimum standards...which are a joke!

I like my profession/trade alot, I speak out & try to implement a greater awareness of tree(s), the dangers, benefits, proper care, etc... its sad that most people on the local boards just dont care!!!

I dont know how to fully fix the problems associated with our trade, there will always be a loop hole for the "hack" businesses in any trade, the only thing I could see helping is to have the CA credential become a license much like a Nurse.....?????, one town in my area requires permits to trim/remove trees...but no requirement on who the home owners contractor is or what their credentials are................A home builder bid a tree job & placed scaffold around the tree & built up as they removed it...was the joke among all us Tree care co.

We went to the meeting complained & the township solicitor told us that Home owners have the freedom of choice to decide who may/maynot perform work on their property....as long as the basic requirements are met!!

IDK........what can we do to safegaurd our trade & make it better!!


LXT................


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## lxt (Jan 18, 2010)

OOMT,...........can some one else please explain to outofmytree about the inner workings here in America!!! Please!! he just doesnt get it.

OOMT, have you noticed that most of the other posters are in the states & that they/we cant even agree on what would work!!!! Your thought that money would be saved by proper care is *WRONG* why?

There are specifications set forth by the hiring agency....their specifications!! the bidder must follow those specs, doing less would mean improperly done & the contractor (under agreement) would be forced to do re-work!!! do you now get it!!!!! someone help me here!!! am I wrong????

Residentially, Yes I/we who do proper care implement the practices appropiate with the specie of tree.....however this is in regard to home owners & they all have different wants for their desired outcome, above this stage Local, State & Federal Govt......you will bid according to the specifications......good luck at changing those specs!!!

I am getting ready for the state bids...have the specs in front of me, there is no mention of collar cuts, proper pruning, etc.. it states 25ft from center of road trimmed ground to sky or what ever can be reached from a 50ft bucket.
stubs have been left by past contractors, tears, peels...you name it

to do it properly & I will try if I get the bid......try!! why? cause some of these trees have been trimmed in a way that to correct the problem will be very time consuming, there are deadlines to meet & the $$$$ dictates it all. *Do what the specs say or they let you go!!or worse Re-work*

hopefully this will sink in, hopefully now you understand how it works here..atleast in my state!!!



LXT..............


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## outofmytree (Jan 19, 2010)

lxt said:


> OOMT,...........can some one else please explain to outofmytree about the inner workings here in America!!! Please!! he just doesnt get it.
> 
> OOMT, have you noticed that most of the other posters are in the states & that they/we cant even agree on what would work!!!! Your thought that money would be saved by proper care is *WRONG* why?
> 
> ...



Wow. It is fortunate that other residents of Pa do not roll over when tough choices come up. If Benjamin Franklin had your "its all too hard" attitude the constitution might be a whole different document!

So far all you have done is whine about how corrupt your government is and how things don't get done right. Harden up princess. We have our own share of hogs with their snouts in the public trough and life still goes on.

Perhaps you should get someone at your end to explain my previous posts because they clearly go over your head. I said the regulation would be at the local govt end, that is, the body doing the hiring.


> I am getting ready for the state bids...have the specs in front of me, there is no mention of collar cuts, proper pruning, etc..


This is where regulation would do the most good. Right here. Are you getting this now?? Once the goverment itself complies to the existing standards then industry compliance is automatic. The cost of compliance is no longer an issue and professional tree companies can focus on doing a better standard of work. The trickle down effect of this sort of change is a strong influence on HO's too. They see street trees being pruned a certain way and assume it is correct so they ask for the same thing.

Remember this?!



> We have exactly the same problem. Like I said. Three things are needed.
> 
> 1.More skills and knowledge for ALL tree workers
> 
> ...



Once again I remind you to look at the red part. I am well aware that there will be different models to suit different countries and even different states or localities. I am also well aware that there will be plenty of whiners saying "it can't be done here" but history shows that the whiners fade away and those who had the determination to make something better won out.


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## lxt (Jan 19, 2010)

OMG..........oomt, you must have been bitten by some form of venemous creature which affected the part of your brain for understanding!!

Did you read my whole post??  Im the guy pointing!!!!!!

Well sprout, here in PA all the other contractors doing the state work....do it to specs, to change those is not an option for us contractors!! re-read this till it sinks in!!!

Im not whining about Govt. Im telling you as clear as possible...LOCAL GOVT. doesnt care to change the way biz is conducted...especially for our trade!! Re-read this till it sinks in!!!

No one at my end wants to explain it to you!!!! As my PM box has posts within it declaring how ridiculously stupid you must be to not understand what I have written!!! let alone.. them telling me to ignore you!!! like they are doing.....*Re-read this till it sinks in*

Regulation as you mentioned "for proper work" would mean more time initially to correct the wrong....Guess what Einstein? they are not going to pay more for the time needed for such!!! *ITS BID WORK* do you know what that means?? really....do you?? Re read this till it sinks in!!!

your thought as too whats needed for the problem:

1- more skills & knowledge for all tree workers

Really....we already have several entities that provide such!! not to mention most employers have a standard training program for tree workers. well thats #1 down..two more to go...Re-read this till it sinks in!!!!

2- regulation as to who may work for gain or profit on trees of a given size

 what is a tree of given size?? 10 ft...20ft...90ft.. who in the hell is gonna determine what size a tree needs to be for a professional to work on it, A tree over here is determined by DBH... not sure if the same where you are!! can you see it? "well Jim thats a tree of given size better get a pro" yep...this would go over like a turd in the face!!

3- Public Education so that *everyone* knows...bla bla bla

Hmmm...ISA, TCIA, Arbor day foundation, Tree city USA, etc...I believe these guys are already doing that, yeah I imagine they need to really beef up on media coverage, commercials, enforcement of CA ethics, etc... shouldnt cost but a few million dollars, I get right on that!!!!!!

*Now for your RED part*, Really!!!!!!! well we Americans would have never thought of that!! 

whew!!!! I have chronologically answered your questions...what I would suggest is for you to read up on & understand the following terms:

*Bid work, specifications, re-work, priority, lobbying contract* & above all... again, where will the $$$ come from to regulate as you are suggesting!

oomt, your post is clearly that of a dolt, you lack the ability to clearly understand what I have posted & how it works HERE!!, I dont know if your remedial reading skills are impaired or if its your understanding?

*I am done explaining to you!! preschoolers would have gotten it by now*




LXT.........


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## fishercat (Jan 19, 2010)

*obviously.....................*



outofmytree said:


> Honestly I think you are being obtuse for the sake of it. The money saved on needless repeat topping is more than enough to cover the cost of hiring an appropriately skilled arborist to inspect trees after work is done according to the permit requested. It doesnt get much simpler than that. I don't know what wages would run to there but here the council saved just shy of a million and their arb costs them a hundred thou. That's a lot of change left over. They used it to pay for staged removals of over pruned trees and plant new specimens that are the right species for the location. Imagine how much money appropriate planting can save in the long term.
> 
> Let me illustrate the point with a few links just so you know I am talking about real places and people.
> 
> ...



you are not very familiar with are government.

by the way,don't you have some guns to turn it?

how's that gun regulation going for you?

crime must be 100% non existent Down Under now. 

yeah right!


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## outofmytree (Jan 19, 2010)

fishercat said:


> you are not very familiar with are government.
> 
> by the way,don't you have some guns to turn it?
> 
> ...



Dunno what the gun control comment is about FC. This is thread is about tree work. My firearms are in the gun safe where they belong.


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## outofmytree (Jan 19, 2010)

lxt said:


> OMG..........oomt, you must have been bitten by some form of venemous creature which affected the part of your brain for understanding!!
> 
> Did you read my whole post??  Im the guy pointing!!!!!!
> 
> ...



Oh my. You really are a wee whiner aren't you. Fortunately you are the exact opposite of most Americans I have met and worked with who have a great "lets get it done" attitude. Honestly with the way you are foaming at the mouth I would think you are either suffering from rabies or more likely, as TV alluded to earlier, you are terrifed that some change to the existing system (which you whined about not working in this very thread) is going to bite you in the back pocket. Afraid of a little light being shone on your business perhaps? Something rotten in the state of Denamrk....


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## lxt (Jan 19, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> Oh my. You really are a wee whiner aren't you. Fortunately you are the exact opposite of most Americans I have met and worked with who have a great "lets get it done" attitude. Honestly with the way you are foaming at the mouth I would think you are either suffering from rabies or more likely, as TV alluded to earlier, you are terrifed that some change to the existing system (which you whined about not working in this very thread) is going to bite you in the back pocket. Afraid of a little light being shone on your business perhaps? Something rotten in the state of Denamrk....





Dude..........you are a funny aussie with your bloomers & nickers on!! 

Dont worry lil fella...my biz is legit, quarterly audits, tailgate handouts,etc... Ahhh...guys..you were right!!!! you know who you are! thanks. rep coming!

keep trying onmyknees!!

LXT...................


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## fishercat (Jan 19, 2010)

*it has everything to do woth it.*



outofmytree said:


> Dunno what the gun control comment is about FC. This is thread is about tree work. My firearms are in the gun safe where they belong.



regulation is regulation.

your lack of an answer is an admittance of it's failure.


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## outofmytree (Jan 19, 2010)

Interesting juxtaposition you present with quarterly audits and tailgate handouts in the same sentence. 

Is there any chance you will grow a set some time soon and post ANY positive thoughts on how the industry can be improved? I realise original thought may be tough for you but surely with your vast knowledge you can come up with something better than "the system doesn't work!"

Try to remember that its called the INTERnet and this is an INTERnational forum. Despite your obvious fear of change there are a large number of members here who welcome the idea of better standards of work in our industry some of whom live in the States and some who live in other countries.


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## lxt (Jan 20, 2010)

Rep to you fishercat!!!! hey he`s still posting.....



LXT.................


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## fishercat (Jan 20, 2010)

*it's amazing.*



lxt said:


> Rep to you fishercat!!!! hey he`s still posting.....
> 
> 
> 
> LXT.................



even the Massachusetts liberals are quiet this morning. :hmm3grin2orange:


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## Ekka (Jan 22, 2010)

treevet said:


> Let's have a chant....ISA.....ISA......ISA....



Here you go.


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## EdenT (Jan 22, 2010)

Define irony.


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## Grace Tree (Jan 22, 2010)

.


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## clearance (Jan 22, 2010)

outonalimbts said:


> Regulate tree work- World Wide- make it a felony crime to do tree work with out the proper training-i.e.; ISA Certified Arborist credential! Or come up with a new credential- worldwide acceptance!



The wet dream of control freak do-gooder wannbees. Good grief.:jawdrop::monkey::jawdrop:


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## outonalimbts (Jan 22, 2010)

*I get angry when people take advantage of others*

I am dedicated to do my best no matter what, I take this work seriously, I don't try to bleed my clients out of money- I object to business that prey on people- I don't really care if they work in trees or not.

I believe in making money- but not raping people out of it.

I think regulation would be good. to set a standard


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## clearance (Jan 22, 2010)

Deleted your post I quoted, but it still lives on!


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## outonalimbts (Jan 22, 2010)

*you were right though... lol*

I was on a rant, it was better deleted...

Thank you for pointing out my err.


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## clearance (Jan 22, 2010)

outonalimbts said:


> I was on a rant, it was better deleted...
> 
> Thank you for pointing out my err.



Its ok, I deleted something too. Take care, be safe.


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## fishercat (Jan 23, 2010)

*i agree with your work ethic.*



outonalimbts said:


> I am dedicated to do my best no matter what, I take this work seriously, I don't try to bleed my clients out of money- I object to business that prey on people, I don't really care if they work in trees or not.
> 
> I believe in making money- but not raping people out of it.
> 
> I think regulation would be good. to set a standard



I am the same way without regulation. there are already laws against taking advantage of people and it still goes on unless an AG needs press time.

Regulation is not going to stop it.

Carpenters and home contractors are regulated and they are still screwing people over.My GF hired on older man who was a licensed contractor to build a closet. after paying him $900 ,we had to get someone else to come and redo it.Don't even get me started on Home Inspectors.

I just don't understand why we need to pay the government to come in a do nothing even more.The police regulate all of us and we still have crime.The builders are regulated and there are still brand new houses falling apart around here.


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## outofmytree (Jan 23, 2010)

fishercat said:


> I am the same way without regulation. there are already laws against taking advantage of people and it still goes on unless an AG needs press time.
> 
> Regulation is not going to stop it.
> 
> ...



This is a valid viewpoint. I do not want more regulation if the outcome is crappier work. My objective, and I believe the objective of most posters here, is to find a way to raise the overall quality of work in our trade. Regulation without enforcement is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.


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## Ekka (Jan 24, 2010)

*SACRAMENTO, CA License required for tree workers?*

So is there already a licence system or is board-certified Master Arborist Robert Props with Props Tree Care not telling the true story?

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=73768&catid=2



> When choosing a professional to inspect your trees, Prop says make sure they are *state licensed contractors* and that they have insurance coverage, with enough umbrella coverage to handle any fatality potential.


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## sgreanbeans (Jan 24, 2010)

I think in Cali there is, I worked for a company, the owner had to put his lic # on the trucks, We had city inspectors out and about all the time checkin the work, dont know if they were city Arborist, they should have been!


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

Ekka said:


> So is there already a licence system or is board-certified Master Arborist Robert Props with Props Tree Care not telling the true story?
> 
> http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=73768&catid=2



Each state has some degree of autonomy when it comes to making state law. Don't think the dude is lying but rather just referring to his state. There is no state license yet in my state. They all must abide by Fed. law.

I don't agree that a HO should check to see if the company is covered by umbrella to handle any fatality claim. That is not possible and no one could afford such a thing if it even existed. Someone could sue for a billion dollars if there husband was Donald Trump and he got squished (just an extreme example).


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## outofmytree (Jan 24, 2010)

treevet said:


> Someone could sue for a billion dollars if there husband was Donald Trump and he got squished (just an extreme example).



Just picked up on your typo Dave. You meant to say Ivanka would pay you a billion dollars if you squashed Donald... right?


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## treevet (Jan 24, 2010)

You're right Doc and likely many others haha


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## fishercat (Jan 27, 2010)

*Connecticut is regulated.*

you need an arborist license to trim.you take a test ,they take your money and that's it,

you should see some of the "licensed arborists" around here.worst hacks you have ever seen.no one comes around to check on these clowns.

i went down to the DEP office who supposedly regulates the licensing. the women there told me they like to compare themselves to the IRS. WTF????????????????


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## outofmytree (Jan 27, 2010)

fishercat said:


> you need an arborist license to trim.you take a test ,they take your money and that's it,
> 
> you should see some of the "licensed arborists" around here.worst hacks you have ever seen.no one comes around to check on these clowns.
> 
> i went down to the DEP office who supposedly regulates the licensing. the women there told me *they like to compare themselves to the IRS*. WTF????????????????



They have no friends and they have to pay their parents to come over at Christmas?


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## lxt (Jan 27, 2010)

As in many instances its all about the money!!! on another thread it was asked about the home improvement contractors license being needed for tree care/ landscape.....I posted & said not needed......Well..

I get an e-mail telling me the law has been ammended (added to) & this may affect my biz.......yes it did..indeed!!! So now I need to be registered as a home improvement contractor????? how dumb!!.....Yes I registered

My beef is: if my state is going to have me pay money for a biz license then why not make it a trade specific license? I know home repair guys, builders, etc.. that dont have this registration #/license....

the sad thing is whos gonna enforce this law? our understaffed police dept. code enforcement? who... & where is the registration money going, whats its use, etc.. I dont mind paying for a license...but atleast humor me on how it will be spent......Guess I can go do remodels & build houses now 


LXT................


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## TreeWhitelock (Feb 14, 2010)

LMAO!!! Well, no need to throw my two cents in. its all been said. That thread went well!! I thoroughly enjoyed that one. Very informative and funny. We almost have a documentary here.


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## fishercat (Feb 15, 2010)

*That's all fine and dandy but.......................*



outofmytree said:


> This is a valid viewpoint. I do not want more regulation if the outcome is crappier work. My objective, and I believe the objective of most posters here, is to find a way to raise the overall quality of work in our trade. Regulation without enforcement is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.



that is going to make the price go up,which in turn creates more low ball hacks.They will work on weekends or at night if they have to.


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## EdenT (Feb 15, 2010)

fishercat said:


> that is going to make the price go up,which in turn creates more low ball hacks.They will work on weekends or at night if they have to.



Which will make them stick out like a dogs......well bits of a dog that stick out. All the easier to detect, fine, and put out of business.


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## fishercat (Feb 15, 2010)

*as long as there are low ball unregulated hacks...................*



EdenT said:


> Which will make them stick out like a dogs......well bits of a dog that stick out. All the easier to detect, fine, and put out of business.



there will be chap bastards to hire them.


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## outofmytree (Feb 21, 2010)

fishercat said:


> there will be chap bastards to hire them.



I agree. Frankly I do not want to get a call from the cheap bastards in the first place. So let Joelowbidder take em all. I will talk to the clients who want the best work at the best price in that order.

On a side note. With my outrageous charge out rates and refusing to top for quick bucks my team are currently booked 3 weeks in advance. Oh and we do not have a single work contract. Every booking is either referred or new from the advertising.


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## outofmytree (Feb 21, 2010)

Just realised that you cursed the lowball unregulated hacks Fish. Welcome to the darkside! More regulation please!


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## Ekka (Apr 4, 2010)

outofmytree said:


> More regulation please!



I agree.

Better when brands stop selling franchises to anyone with the money rather than the qualifiaction.

For example, Jims Trees, doesn't mean you get a qualified arborist .... just some fool who paid the franchise fee. :monkey:

You know, they say that insecure people ... the types who were employees who require security and certainty in business .... are the predominant purchasers of franchises as they required job security, like Jim's offer gaurantees for franchise buyers.

LOL, and the customer ... beware.


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## treeseer (Apr 4, 2010)

What's wrong with working on weekends? I use students for help so weekends are working time. convenient also, since the client is home to pay, and the neighbors, to learn.

Regulation? Good and bad to it...hard to put a value on certs and quals when certs have no field component, and quals for gardeners transfer to arbs.

Buyer beware, either way.


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## Ekka (Apr 4, 2010)

treeseer said:


> Regulation? Good and bad to it...hard to put a value on certs and quals when certs have no field component, and quals for gardeners transfer to arbs.



I suppose it would be for some-one who escalates just one source to supremacy. :monkey:


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## outofmytree (Apr 4, 2010)

Ekka said:


> I agree.
> 
> Better when brands stop selling franchises to anyone with the money rather than the qualifiaction.
> 
> ...



You know this interests me. According to your website Ekka you gained cert III in 2005 and have been in operation for 12 years. So which cert III arborist did you have on site for 7 years supervising every job?

There is no zealot like a convert. Just like ex smokers are the worst for pressuring others to quit. So you, after 7 years of unqualified work, (your own words), now demand everyone have some particular form of qualification.

You are a hypocrite of the worst kind Ekka.


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## fishercat (Apr 4, 2010)

*I curse all hacks.*



outofmytree said:


> Just realised that you cursed the lowball unregulated hacks Fish. Welcome to the darkside! More regulation please!



We seem to have more regulated hacks lately.The state just wants their money and the hacks just want to be able to say they are regulated because they think it will help sell their service.trees still suffer but the state gets more money to squander and the hacks feel more important.


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## outofmytree (Apr 7, 2010)

Ekka said:


> I agree.
> 
> Better when brands stop selling franchises to anyone with the money rather than the qualifiaction.
> 
> ...



This the second time you have posted this Ekka. I am unsure whether you are ignorant of business practise or are wilfully misleading the readers here as you have a history of doing both.

Let me set the record straight.

Name the most succesful independantly owned business in Australia? McDonalds. A franchise.

Name the most succesful independantly owned fuel station chain in Australia? Caltex. A franchise.

Name the most succesful electronic retail outlets in Australia?

Harvey Norman. A franchise.
Retravision. A franchise.
The Good Guys. A franchise.
Betta Electrical. A franchise.

Thirsty? Grab a fresh juice at Boost Juice. A franchise. 
Hungry? Grab a pizza from Eagle boys. A franchise.
MMM icecream from Wendy's. A franchise.
Car needs a service. Drop in to Automasters. A franchise.
Need work done on your lawn, fence, pool, patio, TV antenna or your *TREES* call Jim's. The most succesful home service *FRANCHISE* in the Southern Hemisphere.

Perhaps the most telling statistic of all is this, provided by Robert Gottleibsen, one of Australia's most respected business experts. 


> Griffith University's Franchising Australia 2006 survey found that our franchising sector turns over an estimated $128 billion, or 14 percent of the country's GDP.



So on the one hand we have a Ekka saying franchising is for wimps and on the other we have Robert Gottleibsen saying franchising produces $128 billion dollars for Australians. Who do you believe?


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## jefflovstrom (Apr 7, 2010)

It seems to me that this Ekka guy is a jealous guy. He does like to take leave of his own site to come here and start trouble. Maybe he feels left out of the social and financially benefits of being connected to successful relations? I don't know, but he does not seem to be a happy guy.
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Apr 9, 2010)

I like the Aussie names, Eagle boys pizza!Boost Juice!


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