# Cylinder honing



## Tree Wacker (Nov 24, 2011)

i been looking at some saws on e-bay lately. and i've seen several sellers say that they had the cylinder re-honed and new piston and rings installed. and then they said it is tight and smooth with new crank bearings and many new parts.

i been around enough saws to know if it looks to worn just go a head and replace the cylinder and not hone one.

so what i was wondering why would they want to rehone a cylinder when they can find a after market piston and cylinder and put it on the saw.

what do you all think here is one of the saws i was talking about.i'm sorry if its one of members auctions here on the site i'm not trying to bash no one i was just wondering why would someone rehone a cylinder.

STIHL 038 MAG II 72CC 4.9HP CHAINSAW SAW POWERHEAD - 036, 044, MS440, 046, 066 | eBay


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## sachsmo (Nov 24, 2011)

Because pistons are much cheaper than jugs. Most scored cylinders can be cleaned up with a few acid treatments and a light hone. Put a new piston/rings in and have a good runner.


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## sachsmo (Nov 24, 2011)

Besides the $$$ factor, OEM cylinders 99% of the time are of better quality than the aftermarket stuff.


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## blsnelling (Nov 24, 2011)

Nothing wrong with lightly honing a cylinder. I know of a couple sponsors here that hit every cylinder they port with a light hone before putting it together. I only do it when cleaning one up with a melted piston. Here's a pic of a McCulloch 101B kart motor. This is a cast iron liner, but gives you an idea. A NiSi lined jug wouldn't take this much of a cross hatch since it's so hard.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 24, 2011)

We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand. 

To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.


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## Fish (Nov 24, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.
> 
> To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.



I agree, just remove the pasted on aluminum, takes a little work, but the better way to go.


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## Bowtie (Nov 24, 2011)

What about a flat stone hone? I ordered a new OEM 034 Super top end last year and the piston was really tight. I LIGHTLY hit it with a new flat hone with wd40 as a lubricant for just a couple seconds, and it worked great.


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## THALL10326 (Nov 24, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.
> 
> To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. *I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder*.



I bet you have seen the bad results of a hone job though. A few years ago a man brought me a 084 he had bought from a rental center, was scored. He decided he could clean that cylinder with a good hone job, boy did he hone it, right down till there was no nikasil left, he ruined it.

If someone tells me I just rebuilt it, I honed the cylinder and installed a new piston you can rest assured I'm gonna say no thanks. 

Where I work there is no cleaning of scored cylinders either, its replaced with new or it doesn't get worked on. Too date almost 20 years now I've never had one comeback on a cylinder job. It may be ok for the hobbiest or the guy trying to squeeze some pennies but when repairing for money all the possible errors have to be eliminated as much as possible.

I'm with you Jacob, honing is not for chainsaw cylinders at all...


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## Bowtie (Nov 24, 2011)

THALL10326 said:


> I bet you have seen the bad results of a hone job though. A few years ago a man brought me a 084 he had bought from a rental center, was scored. He decided he could clean that cylinder with a good hone job, boy did he hone it, right down till there was no nikasil left, he ruined it.
> 
> If someone tells me I just rebuilt it, I honed the cylinder and installed a new piston you can rest assured I'm gonna say no thanks.
> 
> ...


Tom, you ornery old cuss, you is fulla crap!


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## sachsmo (Nov 24, 2011)

Well,

Howz ya doin' Tom.

I will take all them scored cylinders off your hands, for 10x scrap price.


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## THALL10326 (Nov 24, 2011)

Bowtie said:


> Tom, you ornery old cuss, you is fulla crap!



I covered my bases with you in mind, haha. I said it may be ok for the hobbiest or penny pincher, I'm positive your not a penny pincher, right,hehe

On my own saw as with you on your own saw yeah it might be worth a try and things may turn out just fine. At the shop though where the man is reaching in his wallet I can't take the chance, it has to be as good as I can possibly get it which means new. Many a cylinder has been saved with acid and thats all fine and well but when I have to stand behind the work after the man flips the bill I want to be as certain as I can he doesn't have a problem down the road. New is the safest bet, cleaning with acid or honing is not even though they may both work, with new I don't have to worry about it..


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## Bowtie (Nov 24, 2011)

THALL10326 said:


> I covered my bases with you in mind, haha. I said it may be ok for the hobbiest or penny pincher, I'm positive your not a penny pincher, right,hehe
> 
> On my own saw as with you on your own saw yeah it might be worth a try and things may turn out just fine. At the shop though where the man is reaching in his wallet I can't take the chance, it has to be as good as I can possibly get it which means new. Many a cylinder has been saved with acid and thats all fine and well but when I have to stand behind the work after the man flips the bill I want to be as certain as I can he doesn't have a problem down the road. New is the safest bet, cleaning with acid or honing is not even though they may both work, with new I don't have to worry about it..



You are right. I was just a funnin. Plus, that is Stihl's policy! Hey that 034 you sent me is stihl runnin like a top! My friend loves it!


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## THALL10326 (Nov 24, 2011)

Bowtie said:


> You are right. I was just a funnin. Plus, that is Stihl's policy! Hey that 034 you sent me is stihl runnin like a top! My friend loves it!



Awesome, glad it worked out for ya,cheers..........


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## Tree Wacker (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm with you Jacob too, honing is not for chainsaw cylinders at all... but what i always learnt is never hone a cylinder because of the thin wall of crome or nikasil that the cylinder has.but i'm with some members on here if you can hone a oem cylinder just a little to get the aluminum transfer off and not mess up the cylinder then i would give it a try.but i was tought if it's scored just replace it with a used cylinder and a new piston and rings.but what i'm trying to say if you run up on a used chainsaw that the seller told you he had the cylinder honed and fitted with a new piston are you going to buy that chainsaw? that what i'm seeing on e-bay everytime i look at chainsaws on there i find a few that the sellers that says they had the cylinder honed and fitted with anew piston and rings.but thats why i don't buy tomany sas off of e-bay i buy from member on here that i know that it is good running and put together the way it should.unless i know the seller that selling the saw or something on e-bay


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 24, 2011)

The saw shops around here that I deal with will not replace a piston period. They will put on a new OEM cylinder kit only.

As far as honing goes there are some people who can tear up an anvil with a piece of cooked cauliflower.

Running a ball hone in and out a few seconds clockwise and counterclockwise is not going to damage nikasil, and it may smooth out a few imperfections that you can do without.


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## Tree Wacker (Nov 24, 2011)

ZeroJunk said:


> The saw shops around here that I deal with will not replace a piston period. They will put on a new OEM cylinder kit only.
> 
> As far as honing goes there are some people who can tear up an anvil with a piece of cooked cauliflower.
> 
> Running a ball hone in and out a few seconds clockwise and counterclockwise is not going to damage nikasil, and it may smooth out a few imperfections that you can do without.



thats the way my stihl shop does they put just cylinder kits only.but if it's just a worn out piston he tells them it's not worth fixing so they will buy a new saw from him.but i'll keep that honing in mind nextime i find a saw thats not to fried to bad.i find a few that just need a new piston with a few lumps in the cylinder.i got a poulan 4218 that has a bad piston but the cylinder has a few lumps about middle ways of the it.


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## Arrowhead (Nov 24, 2011)

I usually don't hone unless there is a scratch or 2 that honing would remove. I have ball honed cylinders with minor scratches back to perfect condition. Had several on the Partner 500/5000 style saws pump almost 200lbs after honing. If the cylinder is spotless and I'm just re-ringing, I use red Scotch Brite to scuff the jug.


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## one.man.band (Nov 25, 2011)

measuring piston to cylinder fit is an art form. pistons vary, as do cylinder bore. making a torque plate jig would take a while. honing process is an art form to get correct x-hatch and finish. even removing a hone takes care. cleaning cyl after honing properly takes a very long time. ring fitting, etc.

question if all the above is worth the time/effort to do this properly, and lots of ways to make things worse.

JacobJ said it right!

nik and chrome are some very hard substances, but can be honed for x-hatch. iron cylinders or liners have to be finish honed. 

ball hone... would be difficult to run at a in and out speed mimicing your first girlfriend in a dead end cylinder.
just order a new cylinder before ruining it with a 3 stone hone... it will arrive just before garbageman comes.

nylon brush hones come in different grits, and take do not material out as quickly. but these are not used for x-hatch.

we used to send bike pistons (new and old) out to get coated after beading to swain, if the ring lands were not worn.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 25, 2011)

I think there are some apples and oranges going on here.

If you are JacobJ or somebody like him working on saws for professional use and have customers expecting their saw back in as close to new condition as possible that's one thing.

If you are trying to get a junk 028 back to where somebody can get a few hundred more hours use out of it that is another.

I routinely put new pistons is old saws for people in the community who just want the saw back running as cheap as possible. Usually it was bad mix.

They are farmer, home owner, landscaper, types who ruin a saw by misuse not overuse.

A good example. I fixed 55 Husq for a neighbor a few years ago and the cylinder was trash. I honed the hell out of it.

Other day he came by and asked me what I did to that saw, said it was the cuttingest saw he had ever had.

Thing is, he won't put 100 hours on that saw in the next decade. 

And, I didn't charge him but $40 dollars parts and all.


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## sachsmo (Nov 25, 2011)

Yup,

I was at a outdoor equipment shop one day, the guy in front of me was a logger/tree service guy I would guess.
They brought his 460 out in a box, told him it would be over $600 to fix it,
Then told him $50 bucks for the diagnosis, they were working out a deal, like "I'll take the $50 bucks off if you buy a new one and let me keep these worthless parts" as I walked out the door.


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## ncfarmboy (Nov 25, 2011)

sachsmo said:


> Yup,
> 
> I was at a outdoor equipment shop one day, the guy in front of me was a logger/tree service guy I would guess.
> They brought his 460 out in a box, told him it would be over $600 to fix it,
> Then told him $50 bucks for the diagnosis, they were working out a deal, like "I'll take the $50 bucks off if you buy a new one and let me keep these worthless parts" as I walked out the door.



I see a lot of parts saws on Ebay from dealers that have seen the "light". Don't forget the phone call telling the customer the bad news and he doesn't pick it up. FREE parts saw in 30 days. Just for the record I routinely lightly ball hone after a piston meltdown. After removing the transfer. Never had a comeback on the used saws I sell.
Shep


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## sachsmo (Nov 25, 2011)

Yup,

Put several "meltdowns" back together that no doubt ran stronger than when they were new!

I don't use a ball hone, just acid then 320 grit. I have used a well worn flap wheel a time or two, but like the "feel" method better.

I have much more time than money!


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## wigglesworth (Nov 25, 2011)

I have posted many time how I thought honing was the devil. But I have come to realize it does have its place with us "hobbiest" who resurrect the dead. I'm a perfectionist freak when it comes to pistons and cylinders. If the bore ain't perfect, I am usually looking for another. But I've had some pretty "Rare" cylinders cross my bench that I typically wouldn't even consider running, that with a couple seconds of a 320 ball hone and a quick pass with my "special" hone, were brought back to their former glory. 

Contrary to popular belief, a nikisal cylinder doesn't need crosshatch for the rings to seat. They seat perfectly fine on a nice smooth bore. If u look inside a brand new OEM cylinder, there is the appearance of crosshatch, but in reality it's smooth as a baby's butt. The visible "crosshatch" is just from the final machining process. 

Now I'll share my "Special" hone with ya. Makes a beautiful smooth finish inside a cylinder, and makes it easy to see any imperfections missed in th cleaning up process, as it more or less polishes the bore, without removing any material. It's a grey scotch brite pad in an eyebolt. Crude, but man it puts the slickness in a bore, also helps smooth the rough edges around port openings especially after porting, and puts a good polish on the combustion chamber. I do all my cylinders with it, whether it gets honed or not. 

Here is a pic of the setup. 







And here is a finished product shot. This is a 262xp cylinder that had some pretty good scratches, and some transfer. She is perfect now after a good acid bath, some sanding, a light hone with a 320 ball hone, and a "Special" treatment.


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 25, 2011)

Wow Wigglesworth, that sure slicks it up.


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## sachsmo (Nov 25, 2011)

The heavy crosshatch is pretty much a thing of the past, even on cast four stroke cylinders the micro-finish and brush is the way to go.
And once you put it together, "run it like you stole it"!


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## one.man.band (Nov 25, 2011)

+1 Zerojunk
+1 ncfarmboy

+1 very nice work Wiggs!

as someone mentioned above...nik really doesn't need the x-hatch, it has some inherent mysterious oil holding capability. on bikes we want the least leakdown we can get immediately, so we honed them. even new pistons and cylinders vary in size. can't wait counting hours of runtime for sealing up rings. like seeing the rings seat in immediately, and then leaving them actually to wear through use. some problem areas were always around the exhaust ports, where the most heat was, where oil burned off the most, the nik was thinner. suggest just be careful and choose the right hone material/grit if you are new to this.

especially unique, unobtainable, or worn pistons can sometimes be saved with just a skirt coating. donno what a saw piston runs, but maybe could be a cheaper way out for some folks if they haven't tried this already.

happy wrenching.


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## rms61moparman (Nov 25, 2011)

As you can see there are lots of varing opinions here and they all work to some extent.
As for me....I will NEVER put a hone, ball or three stone, in a chainsaw cylinder.
I can see NO benefit and most will do more harm than good.
I have seen "honed" cylinders that were completely ruined IMO by the balls beating the hell out of the clockwise side of the ports and transfers.
The perfect seal is a glass smooth surface against a glass smooth surface protected by a microscopic film of oil.
Why do you want to put a bunch of scratches in it?
The Nicasil or chrome plating is thin enough as it is.....why would you want to remove any of it?

Put me firmly in the "HELL NO" category.


Mike


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## wigglesworth (Nov 25, 2011)

rms61moparman said:


> Put me firmly in the "HELL NO" category.
> 
> 
> Mike



Oh come on mike!! 

U wake up on the wrong side of the bed this mornin? Lol

I do agree with ya, to a point. Lots of cylinders have been reduced to piles if junk than have been fixed most likely, but I've also saved quite a few doomed for the scrapper. But, a ball home is my last option. I get out all I can with good ol' elbow grease and the scotch brite. 

Hope ya had a good thanksgiving mike!!


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## one.man.band (Nov 25, 2011)

Jacob J. said:


> We debated the whole honing/ball honing issue on Nikasil cylinders at one of the last Stihl dealer update meetings I went to. The consensus from the group (which included several long-time gold technicians and two of the regional service people) was that ball honing is unnecessary in most cases and in cases where piston residue is an issue, it's best removed by hand.
> 
> To me, ball hones are a waste of time and money. They've been shown to be detrimental to newer motorcycle cylinders and my belief is that in most people's hands, they do more harm than good. This doesn't mean my opinion is 100% right, but I've rebuilt a lot of saws, more than most members here combined. I've never seen the benefits of a ball hone on a modern Nikasil cylinder.



(can't get the multi quotes to work)
me: question if all the above is worth the time/effort to do this properly, and lots of ways to make things worse.

JacobJ said it right!

+1 rms61moparman

on board with that entirely, if i had a saw shop with employees. would not want someone tied up that long with one saw. if i was my only employee, i would not make any $. but i don't have a saw shop and don't fix saws for monetary gain. would do it for myself, very close friends, and folks who don't have the $ if they asked for help. self satisfaction. some things that i learned years ago help me to do that. i digress. but that's what i teach my kids.


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## komatsuvarna (Nov 27, 2011)

*Big thanks to wiggs*

Just thought Id add a little to this. I was given a clean complete Husky 44 for fixing the neighbors leaf blower. A lot of parts for the saw is NLA. Anyways, It had some transfer on the cylinder, and the piston is scared up a little. I done the acid treatment to the cylinder, then some light sanding with 220 and 320, then I put the Wigglesworth hone to it. Turned out well. I have one small scar below the exhaust port (that Im not going to loose any sleep over), but other than that it looks almost new. Forgive the crappy pictures. There from my phone, and I didn't have it set right on the before shot.


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## wigglesworth (Nov 27, 2011)

Hahaha!! The wigglesworth hone!!!

Looks good man!


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## ZeroJunk (Nov 27, 2011)

wigglesworth said:


> Hahaha!! The wigglesworth hone!!!
> 
> Looks good man!



Patent pending.


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## Jacob J. (Nov 27, 2011)

Looks like the Wigglesworth hone does a great job. I'm a get me one of those.


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## Tree Wacker (Nov 27, 2011)

yeah me too i'll take at least 3 of them.1 to use on cylinders and 2 to keep incase the first one get worn out LOL.and i'm dead serious too.


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## Mastermind (Nov 27, 2011)

Tree Wacker said:


> thats the way my stihl shop does they put just cylinder kits only.but if it's just a worn out piston he tells them it's not worth fixing so they will buy a new saw from him.but i'll keep that honing in mind nextime i find a saw thats not to fried to bad.i find a few that just need a new piston with a few lumps in the cylinder.i got a poulan 4218 that has a bad piston but the cylinder has a few lumps about middle ways of the it.



Some stuff to remember....the 4218 has a un-plated bore with a plated piston. Never sand or hone those type of bores. The finish is important and is ruined by sanding. If it's scored it's trash. 

Wiggs is the man. Best looking work I've ever seen......not as fast as me, but pretty.


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## Tree Wacker (Nov 27, 2011)

Mastermind said:


> Some stuff to remember....the 4218 has a un-plated bore with a plated piston. Never sand or hone those type of bores. The finish is important and is ruined by sanding. If it's scored it's trash.
> 
> Wiggs is the man. Best looking work I've ever seen......not as fast as me, but pretty.



oh i c well i didn't know that but i do know about it now thanks mastermind i'll sure rember that for now on.


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## dom1971 (Aug 20, 2018)

Check out this on Aluminum transfer removal, this guy does custom work on new saws and he is very popular. , what do you guys think ?


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## hotshot (Aug 20, 2018)

He posted comment #35 in this thread about 7 years ago...that is Masterminds’ video & his method does work very well!


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## blsnelling (Aug 20, 2018)

I've never heard of this @Mastermind Worksaws guy.


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## dom1971 (Aug 20, 2018)

I am new to chainsaw repair but I cannot imagine a better method. Any thoughts ?


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## cus_deluxe (Aug 20, 2018)

blsnelling said:


> I've never heard of this @Mastermind Worksaws guy.


Sounds like a hack.


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## cus_deluxe (Aug 20, 2018)

dom1971 said:


> I am new to chainsaw repair but I cannot imagine a better method. Any thoughts ?


If theres real heavy aluminum transfer, i use muriatic acid until it quits bubbling. Then i use randys method. I start with 80 grit, then go to i think 160 or 180, finish at 320, using a little lune during the process.


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## Sepia (Aug 20, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> If theres real heavy aluminum transfer, i use muriatic acid until it quits bubbling. Then i use randys method. I start with 80 grit, then go to i think 160 or 180, finish at 320, using a little lune during the process.


What is this "lune" you speak of? We have loons up here in the great white north, but they are too big to stuff into a chainsaw cylinder. I think even a little loon would be troublesome to say the least


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## cus_deluxe (Aug 20, 2018)

CJ Brown said:


> What is this "lune" you speak of? We have loons up here in the great white north, but they are too big to stuff into a chainsaw cylinder. I think even a little loon would be troublesome to say the least


LOL, im usually pretty good at spell checking myself. Lube dammit haha.


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## Sepia (Aug 20, 2018)

Just havin a little fun


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## cus_deluxe (Aug 20, 2018)

Dont worry chris, i can take it haha


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## Sepia (Aug 20, 2018)

On topic... I have been using these lately and they work awesome in cylinders and many other places as well. I use them in a pencil type grinder. They would be great in a foredom or dremel as well.
https://www.ebay.com/p/40pcs-1-25mm...m=192620187984&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


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## Sepia (Aug 20, 2018)

I was so busy checking my spelling, I forgot to include my link up there 

Fixed.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Sep 10, 2018)

Mastermind said:


> Some stuff to remember....the 4218 has a un-plated bore with a plated piston. Never sand or hone those type of bores. The finish is important and is ruined by sanding. If it's scored it's trash.
> 
> Wiggs is the man. Best looking work I've ever seen......not as fast as me, but pretty.



Strangely......this guy looks a lot like me.


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## Mad Professor (Sep 10, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Strangely......this guy looks a lot like me.



Good to see you back. Cameo?

Too bad you abandoned this place and old saws.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Sep 11, 2018)

Mad Professor said:


> Good to see you back. Cameo?
> 
> Too bad you abandoned this place and old saws.



I was banned.....

Started this account to keep up with a few guys. 

Sadly......the place ain't too appealing to me these days......but I'm still porting saws just as I have since 2010.


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## Huskybill (Sep 11, 2018)

Ball jones tend to bounce over the open ports like the transfer ports and intake and exhaust ports. Ball hones are no good when there’s open ports in the cylinder. Look closely you can see where the balls bounce over the openings. I use gear driven adjustable hones. They have stones made for honing and boring all types of metal. I bore the castiron sleeves in dirtbike engines.


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I was banned.....
> 
> Started this account to keep up with a few guys.
> 
> Sadly......the place ain't too appealing to me these days......but I'm still porting saws just as I have since 2010.


Howdy Randy .
That  seems to be how your feeling in general from what I read at the other place, so lets not be a Debbie downer !
Hope you guys have a great time this weekend.


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> LOL, im usually pretty good at spell checking myself. Lube dammit haha.


So much lube helps get them in the cylinder .
Oh my another oil thread .


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## cus_deluxe (Oct 3, 2018)

Astroglide 16:1


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> Astroglide 16:1


Oh snap.
I tried to put a loon in the drill, had a hard time getting the feet in the cylinder .


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## cus_deluxe (Oct 3, 2018)

Ya cant just jam it in there brett, you gotta sweet talk it first, and you gotta have it pointed the right direction: head first. Come on man.


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> Ya cant just jam it in there brett, you gotta sweet talk it first, and you gotta have it pointed the right direction: head first. Come on man.


I didn't have a big enough chuck to put the feet in .
In case you need it I have the clutch cover here for the 362 .
Also the P&C, but I'm guessing those won't ever be used again.


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## Huskybill (Oct 3, 2018)

Two quarter pounders, large order of fries while the grill is hot. Please I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 3, 2018)

chipper1 said:


> Howdy Randy .
> That  seems to be how your feeling in general from what I read at the other place, so lets not be a Debbie downer !
> Hope you guys have a great time this weekend.



I hold no animosity......and can't recall the last time I posted anything negative about this site on any other forums. But......I'm not known for holding back when it comes to expressing my feelings.

So.......maybe you might try not being a.....what was that????? A "Debbie Does Dallas" ? LOL

Wish you could be here Brent. It's gonna be a hoot.


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## The Singing Arborist (Oct 3, 2018)

So another question about honing scored cylinders. I had a scored piston, rings and cylinder in my cs800. I replaced all of them with oem. Now I'm getting into the idea of porting this saw by just cleaning up and widening the ports. I practiced on the old cylinder and was wondering...if I cleaned up the light scratches on the old, now ported cylinder, and put that on the new piston and rings, what kind of risk do I run to the new piston and rings? In cases where the hone didn't work for you guys in the past, what ended up getting damaged in the failure?

I really want to get deeper in this chainsaw modding stuff, but want to do it carefully as I make money using these saws.


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## cus_deluxe (Oct 3, 2018)

chipper1 said:


> I didn't have a big enough chuck to put the feet in .
> In case you need it I have the clutch cover here for the 362 .
> Also the P&C, but I'm guessing those won't ever be used again.


Yeah id love that cover, didnt know until recently that they are different from the large mount.


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

cus_deluxe said:


> Yeah id love that cover, didnt know until recently that they are different from the large mount.


Just a little lol.
Shot me your addy again.


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## chipper1 (Oct 3, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I hold no animosity......and can't recall the last time I posted anything negative about this site on any other forums. But......I'm not known for holding back when it comes to expressing my feelings.
> 
> So.......maybe you might try not being a.....what was that????? A "Debbie Does Dallas" ? LOL
> 
> Wish you could be here Brent. It's gonna be a hoot.


Me either , just you said you were a bit burned out over yonder. 
What I hear when someone says, the place ain't too appealing to me these days, isn't exactly positive, but maybe my understanding is off a little off. You know by our conversations I'm not shy either .



If I said it's not to appealing to me would that be negative .
I would like to, but this time of the year is crazy busy, not sure how you do the gtg this time of the yr . 
Hope you guys have a great time. I'm still a bit worried about my car breaking down there .


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 4, 2018)

Honing a chrome plated cylinder is an interesting concept to me. I mean it will help with brake in I suppose but how does the cylinder side ever bed in when the chrome is so hard? Then again when it comes to engines in general, 2 strokes are less effected by ring seal then 4 strokes, small motors are less effected by seal then large ones, and fast motors are less effected by ring seal then slow ones. This transcends all engines no matter what the application. I know with motocross bikes we would put many new piston and rings in untouched 2 stroke cylinders before having an issue, and they weren't plated. I also know that when bikes like the xr600 had to be redone, Honda would say either don't touch it or replace the jug. Do not hone.

So I guess in the end with a saw motor being so small and high RPM in nature, a hone could give some cushion/protection possibly without effecting seal. I would think it's somewhat permanent rather then a temporary thing like it would be on a non-plated cylinder.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 4, 2018)

chipper1 said:


> What I hear when someone says, the place ain't too appealing to me these days, isn't exactly positive, but maybe my understanding is off a little off.



Oh I meant what I said. 

This site is not very appealing to me anymore. Hell, there's more political posts here than anything else. Most "discussions" here end up devolving into petty snippets of back biting snide comments from the peanut gallery. 

But....you might not see that since you're knee deep in it. For myself, having stepped back from it, I probably see it too clearly.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 4, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> Honing a chrome plated cylinder is an interesting concept to me. I mean it will help with brake in I suppose but how does the cylinder side ever bed in when the chrome is so hard? Then again when it comes to engines in general, 2 strokes are less effected by ring seal then 4 strokes, small motors are less effected by seal then large ones, and fast motors are less effected by ring seal then slow ones. This transcends all engines no matter what the application. I know with motocross bikes we would put many new piston and rings in untouched 2 stroke cylinders before having an issue, and they weren't plated. I also know that when bikes like the xr600 had to be redone, Honda would say either don't touch it or replace the jug. Do not hone.
> 
> So I guess in the end with a saw motor being so small and high RPM in nature, a hone could give some cushion/protection possibly without effecting seal. I would think it's somewhat permanent rather then a temporary thing like it would be on a non-plated cylinder.



Here's what I do. It may, or may not work for anyone else.


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 4, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Here's what I do. It may, or may not work for anyone else.



That cylinder looked slick after the scotch brite! See id try that now that I've seen someone else do it but would have never ventured that route on my own. I've always used muriatic acid but it sounds like you don't like it. What's the reason?


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 4, 2018)

SmellyPirateHooker said:


> That cylinder looked slick after the scotch brite! See id try that now that I've seen someone else do it but would have never ventured that route on my own. I've always used muriatic acid but it sounds like you don't like it. What's the reason?



If there are any pinholes, or scratches that go into the aluminum beneath he plating, the acid will eat away at it, and undermine the area making it far worse. Then there's the fumes, and the mess. 

Most people think a small hole in the plating, or a little gouge will cause the cylinder to be unusable. That's not really true. As long as the majority of the bore is in good shape, and all the aluminum is removed, it will run just fine. Scratches will fill up with carbon over time.....


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## SmellyPirateHooker (Oct 4, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> If there are any pinholes, or scratches that go into the aluminum beneath he plating, the acid will eat away at it, and undermine the area making it far worse. Then there's the fumes, and the mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That makes a lot of sense


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## rms61moparman (Oct 4, 2018)

Sometimes, great big nasty gouges will not effect the way a cylinder runs, depending on their location and the need for a running saw. Ain't that right wigglesworth???


Mike


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## muddstopper (Oct 4, 2018)

I am in no way a probuilder, but I have my own method of removing the aluminum transfer. I take the cyl out side and set on the ground. I then stuff a blue rag on a roll towel into the bore and pour it full of the muratic acid. I let it set for about 15 minutes letting the acid soften up the transfer and then take a forked wooden dowel rod in my drill and stick it into the towel and spin it with the drill. This doesnt remove any of the chrome or scratch or hone the cyl, but it will remove the transfer.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 5, 2018)

rms61moparman said:


> Sometimes, great big nasty gouges will not effect the way a cylinder runs, depending on their location and the need for a running saw. Ain't that right wigglesworth???
> 
> 
> Mike



Speaking of @wigglesworth he will be here tomorrow for the GTG. 

How are you Mike?


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 5, 2018)

muddstopper said:


> I am in no way a probuilder, but I have my own method of removing the aluminum transfer. I take the cyl out side and set on the ground. I then stuff a blue rag on a roll towel into the bore and pour it full of the muratic acid. I let it set for about 15 minutes letting the acid soften up the transfer and then take a forked wooden dowel rod in my drill and stick it into the towel and spin it with the drill. This doesnt remove any of the chrome or scratch or hone the cyl, but it will remove the transfer.



Sounds good to me.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 5, 2018)

A final hone for less than 30 seconds just to polish a cylinder is not too damaging but trying to hone out aluminum transfer or deep scratches will destroy a plated cylinder. Like Randy already explained, acid can and will destroy bare aluminum and a lot of cylinders have small pock marks,pits and such where the acid will get through the plating to the bare aluminum underneath and that little pock mark becomes much large quickly. Due to many reasons, local, no dealerships , before internet etc it was difficult to get new parts easily so one had to make do with what was on hand to keep a saw running til new parts could acquired. I have ran and kept saws running with cylinders damaged to the point that these days no one would believe they would run or last. Back then we just made sure the damaged areas, scratches or gouges were undercut enough that they would not cause further damage, sanding, scraping down the high points and put back together saved many woods workers countless down days of lost work. Wasn`t uncommon then for a woods worker to have only one saw, heavens forbid this today, right.
I have older saws that have huge chunks out of the cylinder or piston still running, would they make 2000 hours, not likely but many have been run many hundreds of hours now and continue to do so but the damage is below the compression making areas of the P&C.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 5, 2018)

If you have a little scratch or two left you will do more damage trying to get them all out than if you just left them.

That is true for a lot of things. How many widgets of all shapes and sizes have you ruined trying to make them perfect.


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## RedneckChainsawRepair (Oct 5, 2018)

1 2 3 to easy for me. I like to do a quick crosshatching myself. Makes a difference in my mind.

Could be used after step 2, but look at difference after step 3. Just a quick turn both ways to crosshatch.


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## trappermike (Oct 6, 2018)

If there is aluminum scoring on the cyl. remove it carefully with muriatic acid,not too long. then run a ball hone thru,only a few seconds is needed. Watch NHRA Top Fuel drag racing on TV sometime,a 10,000 HP nitro engine does a 3.7 second run at 330 mph (with 50 psi supercharger pressure!),is then cooked everytime,if they don't explode,(which is a spectacular fireball)then they just run a ball hone thru and stuff new pistons in(in 1 hour) and ready to go again,good enough for them,good enough for me. They show it in the pits between runs.You can see the ball hone being used.


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## holeycow (Oct 6, 2018)

Those are not 2 strokes with ports and chrome lining are they?


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## trappermike (Oct 6, 2018)

No not 2-strokes but the pistons and rings and bore must survive infinitely more pressure and seal. I only ever use ball hones on 2-strokes,but each to his own... And a ball hone does a nice job of smoothing port edges too.


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## trappermike (Oct 6, 2018)

Is not honing done to create a good piston and ring cylinder seal? Quick ring seating and good seal are what I look for.


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## blsnelling (Oct 6, 2018)

The top fuel dragster application has no correlation what so ever. Chainsaws have NiSi/chrome lined cylinders.


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## trappermike (Oct 6, 2018)

Cylinder finish and sealing are my only consideration,they are what I've always used,if you like a different type of hone,fine by me. Each to his own...


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## blsnelling (Oct 6, 2018)

I didn't state whether you should hone or not...simply that your comparison is of no merit. Completely different materials and application.


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## trappermike (Oct 6, 2018)

I disagree,cylinder sealing and piston ring and cylinder breakin and sealing are related,be it a cast iron bore,nikasil or chrome. Also the crosshatch left retains oil for lubrication in 2-strokes,also I only hone for a few seconds so not to thin the cylinder plating, the old chrome was tough,but nikasil is pretty thin,I hone as little as possible on them. I don't know why the ball hone goes in the garbage can for saws. You surely don't use the ancient 3 stone hone, do You?


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## rms61moparman (Oct 6, 2018)

trappermike said:


> I disagree,cylinder sealing and piston ring and cylinder breakin and sealing are related,be it a cast iron bore,nikasil or chrome. Also the crosshatch left retains oil for lubrication in 2-strokes,also I only hone for a few seconds so not to thin the cylinder plating, the old chrome was tough,but nikasil is pretty thin,I hone as little as possible on them. I don't know why the ball hone goes in the garbage can for saws. You surely don't use the ancient 3 stone hone, do You?




Nope!
Nor any other hone either.
There are just better ways.
But to each their own. Your saw do it your way.


Mike


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## rms61moparman (Oct 6, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Speaking of @wigglesworth he will be here tomorrow for the GTG.
> 
> How are you Mike?




I'm OLD, FAT and crippled!
But I keep waking up every morning (or at least some time during the day) so life is good!
Sorry I didn't know about your GTG in time to make plans, I'd love to see a bunch of youall again.
Guess I should get back into the loop a little. Hope everything goes great for your GTG.


Mike


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## trappermike (Oct 7, 2018)

No hone at all?!
Yea ok ,do it your way... Well each to his own...no crossshatch for efficient ring sealing or retaining oil...


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 7, 2018)

rms61moparman said:


> I'm OLD, FAT and crippled!
> But I keep waking up every morning (or at least some time during the day) so life is good!
> Sorry I didn't know about your GTG in time to make plans, I'd love to see a bunch of youall again.
> Guess I should get back into the loop a little. Hope everything goes great for your GTG.
> ...



Gonna do it again next year. First weekend in October again. 

It was great having Andre @Andyshine77 there this year.


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## holeycow (Oct 7, 2018)

The original factory crosshatch is already there. You just have to reveal it with a good cleaning.

It takes a lot of pistons and rings to wear out the factory crosshatch in good chrome. Lots.


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## Canyon Angler (Oct 8, 2018)

On normal car engines with cast iron cylinder walls, I thought the reason for honing was to remove the glaze and smooth out where the ring ridge had been, and to get a good crosshatch for ring seating and oil retention.

But on a chrome or nikasil cylinder in a 2-stroke, do you even _get_ a glaze, much less a ring ridge?


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## Deleted member 135597 (Oct 8, 2018)

i rebuild piston aircraft engines for a living. Steel cylinders get honed and chrome ones do not. We chrome cylinders when necessary to bring them back into spec. which is rarely done anymore.


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## CR888 (Oct 8, 2018)

trappermike said:


> No hone at all?!
> Yea ok ,do it your way... Well each to his own...no crossshatch for efficient ring sealing or retaining oil...


Do you know how hard Nikasil is? I believe there is a place for honing some cylinders, just not Nikasil plated saw ones. Some of the guys offering advice have rebuilt more than a few.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 8, 2018)

CR888 said:


> Some of the guys offering advice have rebuilt more than a few.



I'm relatively new to the saw community. 

What size blade for my MS310 ?


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## Sepia (Oct 8, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I'm relatively new to the saw community.
> 
> What size blade for my MS310 ?


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 8, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> I'm relatively new to the saw community.
> 
> What size blade for my MS310 ?


 Are you sure its not a 311Y? Just asking since I have only worked on very few saws.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 8, 2018)

CR888 said:


> Do you know how hard Nikasil is? I believe there is a place for honing some cylinders, just not Nikasil plated saw ones. Some of the guys offering advice have rebuilt more than a few.



In this case honing, or sand paper and finger, Muratic Acid, or whatever is to get the aluminum transfer off. The less effect on the plating the better.


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## ZeroJunk (Oct 8, 2018)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Are you sure its not a 311Y? Just asking since I have only worked on very few saws.


If it is a Piltz he could probably use a 60 inch.


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 8, 2018)

pioneerguy600 said:


> Are you sure its not a 311Y? Just asking since I have only worked on very few saws.



Well I will be damned. It must be a special model. It has a 311Y sticker too. 

Now.....about that blade. 

The guy at the saw shop tried to sell me some sort of chisel chain attachment for it, but I can't find the hammer setting to run that.

I just want a dang regular blade.


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## Sepia (Oct 8, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Well I will be damned. It must be a special model. It has a 311Y sticker too.
> 
> Now.....about that blade.
> 
> ...


Maybe this guy can help you out ...


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## Mastermind Worksaws (Oct 8, 2018)

CJ Brown said:


> Maybe this guy can help you out ...
> 
> View attachment 678902



Looks like a smart feller.

Now. What oil should I be running in my special edition 311Y MS310?


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## rms61moparman (Oct 8, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Looks like a smart feller.
> 
> Now. What oil should I be running in my special edition 311Y MS310?



I read somewhere that SAE30 at 16:1 is the best protection money can buy!


Mike


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Well I will be damned. It must be a special model. It has a 311Y sticker too.
> 
> Now.....about that blade.
> 
> ...



Blades are over rated and dangerous, better be very careful if using a blade on a chainsaw.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Looks like a smart feller.
> 
> Now. What oil should I be running in my special edition 311Y MS310?



Those 311Y models bring big monies on eBag due to the rarity of them in North America.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2018)

ZeroJunk said:


> If it is a Piltz he could probably use a 60 inch.



Those 311Y `s could easily pull a 60" Cannon bar and chain, they are awesome so I have heard.


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## Sepia (Oct 9, 2018)

Mastermind Worksaws said:


> Looks like a smart feller.
> 
> Now. What oil should I be running in my special edition 311Y MS310?


I've heard that used motor oil is the most economical, but you should strain it through an old pair of underwear first to remove any impurities.


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## pioneerguy600 (Oct 9, 2018)

CJ Brown said:


> I've heard that used motor oil is the most economical, but you should strain it through an old pair of underwear first to add any impurities.


 Fixed it for ya,....LOL


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## MrTwig2 (Jul 29, 2019)

Am I the ony one who glass bead cylinders to get rid of aluminium transfer?
I've done it on a dozen or so saws, and it always works great.


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## Huskybill (Jul 29, 2019)

I just lightly honed my cylinder for my 2100 husky. The cross hatch holds oil to keep the piston lubed. The horizontal lines in the piston also holds oil. I use the ball hone for nickasil cylinders. With chrome you want a nice tight cross hatch. I put the ball hone in front of the bore. A short burst of the trigger clockwise I go in to the chamber. Then it’s a short burst coming out clockwise. Then a burst counter clockwise in, then a burst counter clockwise out. Usually that’s enough of a cross hatch. I’m not changing the bore size, I’m just putting the cross hatch back in it. Don’t run the hone continuously, just short bursts in and out for the best cross hatch results.

www.enginehones.com

https://www.enginehones.com/niapho.html

To hone or not to hone? My local husky factory authorized dealer hones every used cylinder. I notice the hidden flaws will show up more after honing. I don’t hone much just enough to lightly have a cross hatch. Without honing the rings will take longer to break in.

Once the cylinder is honed and cleaned I burnish a moly paste into the pores of the metal of the bore. I burnish moly into the skirt of the piston. I then apply the two stroke oil to the rings, top wrist pin needle bearing, the rod bearing, and flow some oil to the crank bearings. I put some oil on the cylinder walls just a little. Then assemble. Don’t forget to pre lube the new seals, before there installed.


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## pollywog (Jan 18, 2022)

I just purchased a nearly new (2 hours) Stihl MS362 with a cooked piston and aluminum transfer slathered 
inside the bore.I have removed most all of the aluminum residue with 400 grit Wet or Dry and good ole
WD40 to create a slurry.
I'm going to test this out and will let you know how it works,i have positive vibes that it will work just fine.
It's an experiment,we'll see.


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