# Angry



## old dude (Aug 21, 2012)

Makes me angry that the entire industry seems to be turning away from climbing skills for the comfort of heavy equipment bucket trucks,spider-lifts etc...
Whatever happened to the days when a man was known as a 'climber'. A SKILL that must be developed over many years of trial and error and down right hard, (honorable) work. Today it seems that if you don't have the bucket trucks, the chippers and chipper trucks, the stump grinders and sprayers----- your not really an arborist.
believe me, I made a good living for thirty plus years with just me and a sidekick (no, not the rope retrieval tool---although I used one for years and think they are GREAT)----All I am saying is that the industry is being, skill-speaking, 'dummed down, by this fixation fed by heavy equipt. manufactures paying big bucks to the trade rags. 
My advice? Gather your truly useful hand tools like the carabiners, slings, sidekicks, spurs hand saws and micro-pulleys and get up there and prove to yourselves that you don't need to be riding a hundred thousand dollar equip. inventory to be a true climbing arboriculturalist.


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## BlackOakTreeServ (Aug 21, 2012)

Im not saying all that equipment is bad or anything, I just prefer to climb, dont want to spend big money on stuff I cant afford, to many going under here.....I owe nothing,
chip truck and chipper serve's me well with small crew....But it's what works for me, others need big equipment and it suits them well, easy on the big jobs....


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

I get what your saying, but in our end of the world without heavy equipment it wouldn't be possible for us to serve our client base. We run two crews non stop with the most state of the art #### out there and we still can't do them fast enough. average wait time even in the winter is 3-4 months. En less it is an emergency then it becomes high priority. A boom or log truck is worth about 10 good men, and when you do the math on what you save on comp and labor it pays for itself. 10 guys with saws couldn't dream of loading a truck and moving wood as fast as that thing could even if they all had mini skid loaders.

The buckets for us are mainly so we can do three or four trees without repositioning. a lot of times if we where climbing we would have to come down and ascend the next tree. the amount of time saved again and on fatigue pays for it self.

i would assume the crane saves me 20-30k a year in labor alone. these new stump grinders are even doing better for me on saving people think wow a 60k stump grinder big money right? wrong we can haul it on the back of my 5ton with a flat bed and it weighs around 5-6k. there is no more standing around and watching a stump get ground out, they are lucky if they get to look at it for 10 min anymore the 2900 we ordered from bandit is a 90hp kabota i do believe and the ox is 140hp deere.

lets say i do 50 big stumps a year which it is more like in the 100's, and each one took an hour of grinding. if your employees are waiting for you to grind it out and watching you that costs. 3000$ a year for me? that almost makes the payments for half a year wow. now your turning a profit with it i hope also.

to clean trees up with a knuckle boom only cost me 30$ an hour how do i figure this. well the guy running it is paid 18.00 and the other matinence. try and compete with it out of shear man power it would cost like 300$ an hour or is impossible to move material that fast. and people ##### about us bidding city trees at like 150.00-200.00 a piece.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 21, 2012)

Whatever happened to the tough corn farmer's picking corn by hand?  Anyway, you can't stop progress, but I would not get carried away with the thought climbing is being dumbed down. If anything, it is being advanced and competing with the big expensive equiptment and in a difficult economy. Relax, all is good.
Jeff


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## TreeAce (Aug 21, 2012)

Good climbers are getting more n more scarce all the time. Its def a dying craft. I get some jobs because I am going to climb and not bring equipment on to the yard and I have not gotta jobs because the HO thinks (I am sure someone put the thought there) the job cant be done with out a crane and/or a bucket. The small back yard lifts are the kiss of death to the true art of climbing trees. I assume those lifts will become somewhat more affordable in the coming years. But in the mean time I still crack a grin when some HO looks at me and shakes there head and says...."that was amazing!"


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> Whatever happened to the tough corn farmer's picking corn by hand?  Anyway, you can't stop progress, but I would not get carried away with the thought climbing is being dumbed down. If anything, it is being advanced and competing with the big expensive equiptment and in a difficult economy. Relax, all is good.
> Jeff



well i mean even with all the equipment i don't see how anyone could own a tree service and not be a proficient climber. there are plenty of places the longest of cranes won't reach and buckets just can't travel. if your completely reliant on equipment your cutting yourself short.

climbing trees is definitely not the hardest thing I've had to conquer rope rigging and all of that is cool. but when you get into the crane end of the world death is easier to come by. getting anywhere in the tree is no problem but knowing what to do when you get there now thats where the men are separated from the boys.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 21, 2012)

Safety and production trump all chest beating ,anyday and anyway , I am gonna do it Like that where ever possible , if I could buy a robot to fly the bucket , I would sorry to ruin this mans man thread


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 21, 2012)

If we could get the youth interested, but so many have an entitlement attitude. 
Run an ad and see the response's. Ouch!
Still, I would not worry. If anything, 'Old school is a Great back-up'.
Jeff


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 21, 2012)

:msp_tongue:


treeclimber101 said:


> , I would sorry to ruin this mans man thread



You can still edit your post. LOL!

Jeff :wink2:


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have no shame at all Jeff period I don't even hesitate one bit to get er done with my 60ft strap on


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 21, 2012)

My opinion is if you don't have a bucket truck you're just as limited as if you can't climb. In time all that big equipment pays for itself and makes you more productive.


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## KenJax Tree (Aug 21, 2012)

Del_ said:


> It's hard to imagine being an arborist and not having a chipper.
> 
> 
> It would be like being a truck driver and not having a drivers license.



Yeah and i couldn't imagine digging stumps out with a shovel everyday.


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## pdqdl (Aug 21, 2012)

Sometimes that big equipment lets you do the impossible...like safely removing hideously dead & rotten trees with a bucket truck. If you climbed it...you would either die or hit everything beneath the tree.

Sometimes you MUST move quickly. I took out a large elm over 4 lanes of public street once. It was done on Sunday, we had a street closure permit, and we couldn't dawdle. That wasn't the time to be monkeying around on a rope, we had to put it down quickly and get the traffic moving. Maybe a really fast climber could have done as well, but then it would have been someone else's job then, wouldn't it?


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 21, 2012)

Del_ said:


> It's hard to imagine being an arborist and not having a chipper.
> 
> 
> It would be like being a truck driver and not having a drivers license.



Real men still burn there brush


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Real men still burn there brush



we do sometimes, when we do land clearing the cheapest option is for us to burn the stumps. man do like 400 stumps make one hell of a bon fire. and i mean like 400 20+inch stumps with all the root balls still attached. we usually put a few hundred gallons of diesel on it and let it burn for about a month. usually does the trick. 60 truck loads down to 1 of ashes.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 21, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> we do sometimes, when we do land clearing the cheapest option is for us to burn the stumps. man do like 400 stumps make one hell of a bon fire. and i mean like 400 20+inch stumps with all the root balls still attached. we usually put a few hundred gallons of diesel on it and let it burn for about a month. usually does the trick. 60 truck loads down to 1 of ashes.



A few hundred gallons ? That sounds like a Valdez spill


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> A few hundred gallons ? That sounds like a Valdez spill



300- or 400 yes sir. around 1500.00 worth but not all at once. try getting a pile of stumps the size of a football field burning. we have to get a permit to do it. that 1500.00 in fuel is way way way cheaper than hauling them out. hauling them out would be 10k or more in cost. the land owner usually gets us a permit and the go ahead to lite them up. usually burns for like 30 days.


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## beastmaster (Aug 21, 2012)

I feel your pain, but not to take advantage of any tool that makes a job easier and safer doesn't make since. I often times feel cheated when we use a crane to do a removal. That is from a climbers point of view. I love a challenge, and taking down a big hazard tree over a structure, impervising rigging technics, pitting my skills against a tree no one else wants to do is very satisfy. But you can't argue that fact when they bring in the crane, and the job is done in three hours, not three days.
I work for various companys when they need some thing their people can't do. It's just a days work for me to climb up 90 ft and tip back a monster euc. using hand loppers, or drop and catch big pieces of wood, or some thing else that any good climber 25 years ago could do, but not so many today. This is good for an old dude like my self, but not so for the future of the industry. Good job security for those that are up to the challenge and are willing to push the boundaries.
But when I watch a good bucket operator do what would take me hours , do it in 20 min. or when a crane or loader moves tons of wood that otherwise would of had to be carried out, were all thankful.
I use to use trailers when I was in business. climbing up in that trailer cutting down the load, time after time, was a lot of work. That same load would only be a little pile if ran throu a chipper, taking a few min.
There will always be a need for expert climber to do the impossible or seemly insane, when the machines can't, and those that can, though maybe not as many as their use to be, will have job security, and be well paid.


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## TreeAce (Aug 21, 2012)

As much as I enjoy old school climbing/rigging I also enjoy and I mean REALLY enjoy doing big removals with a crane. It takes me to my happy place. Maybe I just dont do enough of them for the fun to wear off...IDK. I havnt done many this year cuz i quit dikn around with the bid and by the time I pay the reasonable rate I get charged I am still to high. There are to many guys running around my area with half ass cranes fighting over those jobs. So be it. I am getting my piece of the pie, I figure the slice is big enough ....for now.


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

TreeAce said:


> As much as I enjoy old school climbing/rigging I also enjoy and I mean REALLY enjoy doing big removals with a crane. It takes me to my happy place. Maybe I just dont do enough of them for the fun to wear off...IDK. I havnt done many this year cuz i quit dikn around with the bid and by the time I pay the reasonable rate I get charged I am still to high. There are to many guys running around my area with half ass cranes fighting over those jobs. So be it. I am getting my piece of the pie, I figure the slice is big enough ....for now.



save your pennies and buy a real crane one day then you'll blow those guys out of the water. around here we just smack the average stick crane guys around on price. on removals we have at least an 80-90% awarded rate usually 30% less than competitors and the word got out over the years. we haven't pruned but 2 trees this year and taken out over 1k.


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## treeclimber101 (Aug 21, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> save your pennies and buy a real crane one day then you'll blow those guys out of the water. around here we just smack the average stick crane guys around on price. on removals we have at least an 80-90% awarded rate usually 30% less than competitors and the word got out over the years. we haven't pruned but 2 trees this year and taken out over 1k.



That's not a good thing if you take them all down then what


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> That's not a good thing if you take them all down then what



They are removals for other companies a lot of times probably 30%. We don't have to do anything else to have work 365.

Let's just say you where down the road from me and had a big removal to do that required a crane and was gonna take you 3-4 days. And we could do it in a day. With a crane the kboom 20 inch chippers you get the idea. You would subcontract it to us instead of all the pain of renting a crane and man handling it out yourself. I charge 3k a day for a big crew with all the toys. So let's say that's a 6k removal for you you made 3k just for bidding it and we are in and out.

At least 10 companies within 30 miles use us for crane removal because even if they wanna pick it themselves they can hire our cranes per hour.

Davey hires us a pretty good bit. Even got paid to do one at the local office managers house because his own crews wouldn't touch it.

Saves me a lot of time in bidding. Some people have caught on tho and go to us the wholesaler. A climber from us is around 800.00 a day and companies are banging off the hook for my guys to climb for the bucket queens.

My kid wanted a Barbie jeep so I went out and climbed for a local guy and got her the escalade 12v model.

We do a good bit of dangerous trees for AA every year, the old bugger pays. 

There are a lot of ways to make money in this business especially off other tree guys.


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## beastmaster (Aug 21, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> save your pennies and buy a real crane one day then you'll blow those guys out of the water. around here we just smack the average stick crane guys around on price. on removals we have at least an 80-90% awarded rate usually 30% less than competitors and the word got out over the years. we haven't pruned but 2 trees this year and taken out over 1k.



I work for one of the only companys around that has it's own knuckle boom crane. Cranes don't seem as popular here as back east. That KB crane will fit in places other cranes can't. The operator using the remote control can always keep you and the load in sight. If you have your own crane, you find a 101 other uses for it. This guy has a huge cargo net. We often fill it full of wood to load it the truck. Saves backs from moving it all by hand from a yard. Some times will lift a chipper or big stump grinder and set it over a wall or fence. You wouldn't rent a crane for these tasks, but if you have one laying around anyway.
His KBoom is only 55ft maxed out. Many times I wish he had a bigger one. Their amazing.


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> I work for one of the only companys around that has it's own knuckle boom crane. Cranes don't seem as popular here as back east. That KB crane will fit in places other cranes can't. The operator using the remote control can always keep you and the load in sight. If you have your own crane, you find a 101 other uses for it. This guy has a huge cargo net. We often fill it full of wood to load it the truck. Saves backs from moving it all by hand from a yard. Some times will lift a chipper or big stump grinder and set it over a wall or fence. You wouldn't rent a crane for these tasks, but if you have one laying around anyway.
> His KBoom is only 55ft maxed out. Many times I wish he had a bigger one. Their amazing.



I use the waste management bagsters they are only 30$ and hold around 3k.


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## beastmaster (Aug 21, 2012)

Sweet 

ATTACH=CONFIG]249604[/ATTACH]


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## beastmaster (Aug 21, 2012)

Will they hold as much as one of these? View attachment 249605


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## mattfr12 (Aug 21, 2012)

beastmaster said:


> Will they hold as much as one of these? View attachment 249605



Absolutely probably won't last as long tho.


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## mattfr12 (Aug 22, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Hard to imagine needing that much fuel when what you are burning is.................fuel!



lots of dirt mixed in plus they are massive try lighting a 60" oak log on fire.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't know how tall the bucket trucks go. For me there is lots of climbing where a truck can't go.

In the timber industry we suffered from the mechanical monster. The feller buncher and the processor. But as long as we can log big old timber on steep broken up ground a good man with a falling saw,a pouch full of wedges and an ax still has his place at the top of the food chain. In the timber. I would think the arborist with his rope and saddle and saw would be in residential tree care. 

I've got over my hatred of bunchers and processors. They have their place. Same as bucket trucks.
Depends on the market.


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## TreeAce (Aug 22, 2012)

Did this maple yesterday. No practical way to get a hook or a bucket on it. It was a nice climb. I double crotched my 200 foot line n there wasn't much rope on the ground. Had some neighbors on lawn chairs for this one.


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## lone wolf (Aug 22, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Safety and production trump all chest beating ,anyday and anyway , I am gonna do it Like that where ever possible , if I could buy a robot to fly the bucket , I would sorry to ruin this mans man thread



Well you could mount a stick saw on it to cut from the ground but I dont know how you could put rigging lines and tie knots!


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## Tree Pig (Aug 22, 2012)

treeclimber101 said:


> Real men still burn there brush



Save a step and just lite the tree on fire. Then turn around and ask the HO for $1000.


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## lone wolf (Aug 22, 2012)

Tree Pig said:


> Save a step and just lite the tree on fire. Then turn around and ask the HO for $1000.



Have you ever tried that?


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## Grace Tree (Aug 22, 2012)

lone wolf said:


> Have you ever tried that?


I was lowering a top down and got distracted by the homeowner. Dropped it onto some uncoated backyard wires and started it smoking. Does that count? 2000 volts I was told. Ground guy said "someone must be smoking marijuana." I said, crap, the top's smoking. Cranked it up with a GRCS. Very exciting.
Phil


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## tramp bushler (Aug 22, 2012)

Tree Ace. Thats cool. ! Did you spur+flipline your way up it or climb your rope. 
I did not know maples got that tall. Are those power lines in the bottom of the pics. ?


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## lone wolf (Aug 22, 2012)

Small Wood said:


> I was lowering a top down and got distracted by the homeowner. Dropped it onto some uncoated backyard wires and started it smoking. Does that count? 2000 volts I was told. Ground guy said "someone must be smoking marijuana." I said, crap, the top's smoking. Cranked it up with a GRCS. Very exciting.
> Phil



That counts!:msp_w00t:


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## lone wolf (Aug 22, 2012)

[video=youtube;zRrNPEzr1ag]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRrNPEzr1ag[/video]


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## gorman (Aug 22, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> 300- or 400 yes sir. around 1500.00 worth but not all at once. try getting a pile of stumps the size of a football field burning. we have to get a permit to do it. that 1500.00 in fuel is way way way cheaper than hauling them out. hauling them out would be 10k or more in cost. the land owner usually gets us a permit and the go ahead to lite them up. usually burns for like 30 days.



If you have any pics or videos of this please put them up (or a link to them). This sounds interesting.


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## mattfr12 (Aug 22, 2012)

gorman said:


> If you have any pics or videos of this please put them up (or a link to them). This sounds interesting.



When we do clearing for the pitt international airport they dig probably a 30foot deep hole in the ground and pump natural gas pipes into it. its like an incinerator, dozer operator just pushes everything in the hole. I'm sure i have some pictures somewhere but they are probably all over the internet of guys doing it. every land clearing company we see around here burns 100's of junk trees and stumps on the site. its not to hard to obtain a permit for this where we live. its illegal as hell but a lot of guys usually put about 100 car tires under the pile to help it get going. lighting up a pile of stumps is a pain in the ass. very hard to get going we usually have like 10 leaf blowers going trying to blow enough air in there to get the fire hot enough to be able to sustain burn on its own without fuel.


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## tramp bushler (Aug 22, 2012)

Put an old 988 tire under a pile of stumps and get it burning. It will burn for days and days once it gets going.


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## TreeAce (Aug 23, 2012)

tramp bushler said:


> Tree Ace. Thats cool. ! Did you spur+flipline your way up it or climb your rope.
> I did not know maples got that tall. Are those power lines in the bottom of the pics. ?


Thank you. I did spur up. Setting a line and going up srt could be quicker for some but for me its just faster to spur up. A wraptor woulda been nice. There were some wires to work around.

I posted the pictures yesterday morning from my phone,signed in this morning and saw 9 likes (thank you!) but the pictures seem to be gone? Just wondering why?


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## tramp bushler (Aug 23, 2012)

No, their still there.


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## limbwalker71 (Aug 23, 2012)

I still climb everything , unless its falling down dead !


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## arborealbuffoon (Sep 13, 2012)

I have really changed my perspective about the whole equipment issue as I've gotten older. I will never forget the first time I realized what an awesome tool a good crane and operator can be.

Given unlimited economic resources, I would certainly own all the great toys. People are way too expensive to fix once they get destroyed by too much manual labor, and hydraulics are a wonderful thing!

In this market, there are far too many low-ballers and hacks. I am 100 percent certain that I couldn't even pay for the insurance and operating costs for a crane, bucket, and loader. It would be tough to do here even if one did every single tree job in the area. Far too often I see tree guys driving around on bald tires leaving giant oil slicks. If the bottom line won't allow for good well maintained equipment then I honestly see no reason to be in the industry.

We have a young guy here who has acquired a ton of equipment over the last several years. He does a fine job IMO, although he does spend a fair amount of time telling everyone what a super stud he is cuz he is a "professional climber". I would love to hear what he has to say 20 years from now after his body is completely shot from being Mr. SuperStud Climber...... 

The same guy ends up dealing with giant turds for low dollars on city contracts. There is a reason why our municipality won't even ask their own fully equipped crews to mess with those. And, when you are struggling to keep up with the overhead of your 3 ring circus, you end up with much of the work that no one else wants.

I definitely agree that having the right tools for the job is peachy. However, I sure don't need the financial pressure that comes with it all. I am more than happy to pass on nasty jobs. I have nothing to prove, and am only willing to do a limited amount of suffering when it comes to tree work. If the job requires machinery, I simply let the customer pay for the rental. Works out pretty well for me, and there are no pesky payments and upkeep.


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## tree MDS (Sep 13, 2012)

Good post AB!! 

It sounds like your market is similar to mine. I have managed to aquire a decent amount of equipment (could use a crane and stumper, but I'm not suffering too bad) that represents itself well. Everything always needs something, but that's just the nature of the animal. It wasn't easy to get it, but I couldn't (or wouldn't want to) do this without it at this point (and thankfully it's mostly payed off). I realized a long time ago that I didn't wanna become that guy, you know, the old climber, with no equipment, who's all worn out now, that used to be "the man" back in the day. Just my 2 cents.


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## bomar (Sep 15, 2012)

i was always taught to work smarter not harder and hell if you have the funds to get a better tool for the job you would be dumb not to utilize a bucket,crane,skid steer,etc. Sometimes you got to put pride aside and look at the big picture to make work safer and easier just my 2 cents.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 15, 2012)

I guess 2 cents is more than 1 cent.
Jeff


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## sgreanbeans (Sep 15, 2012)

I love the toys, but I always use the "old school" ways. I have all the gadgets for climbing, but I still hip thrust. Sometimes I could use my bucket, but the tree is easy so I just climb it and keep the thing there as a chip truck. BUT! If I can use my skid loader.........for anything. I WILL! Cause, any way u cut it, humping material sucks! Did back then, does now! I will occasionally, not take my chipper, if its a real small job, that I can toss in a trailer and bring it home to chip, avoiding driving the BT across town, saves gas and time, can buzz around town a lot easier with my 250 and dump trailer. We have Crane Co's here, but most of them suck. They have horrible reps for jackin chit up, so I won't use them. I rig everything. 3 times now in my whole career, have I used a crane, on a job. Have taken many a tree that others said could not be done without one, they just don't have the skill or knowledge on how to do it. I would have loved to get one, I was close to getting one as they are a awesome tool, little late for that now!


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## treemandan (Sep 15, 2012)

mattfr12 said:


> we do sometimes, when we do land clearing the cheapest option is for us to burn the stumps. man do like 400 stumps make one hell of a bon fire. and i mean like 400 20+inch stumps with all the root balls still attached. we usually put a few hundred gallons of diesel on it and let it burn for about a month. usually does the trick. 60 truck loads down to 1 of ashes.



I am calling the EPA right now!


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## treeclimber101 (Sep 15, 2012)

treemandan said:


> I am calling the EPA right now!



It just sounds like a lot of diesel being burned


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## treemandan (Sep 15, 2012)

I hear ya Old Dude. In my twenty years I have been in a bucket maybe 6 times and half of them was to top hedges. You have a Sidekick? yer an elitist then huh?


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## mattfr12 (Sep 15, 2012)

treemandan said:


> I am calling the EPA right now!



Thats who you get a permit from so i guess they can just verify it for you? around here its the DEP. we follow rules and regulations for it so have at it.


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## bomar (Sep 16, 2012)

TreeAce said:


> Did this maple yesterday. No practical way to get a hook or a bucket on it. It was a nice climb. I double crotched my 200 foot line n there wasn't much rope on the ground. Had some neighbors on lawn chairs for this one.
> 
> looks pretty close to the powerlines or is it a optical illusion i kno the rule here is you cant go within 10 feet which is the minimum approach distance for anyone thats not line clearance certified i was just wonderin if that law is the same there


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## bomar (Sep 16, 2012)

Tree Pig said:


> Save a step and just lite the tree on fire. Then turn around and ask the HO for $1000.



did you learn this tactic from the aerial arborist lol sounds like something he would have done


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 16, 2012)

bomar said:


> TreeAce said:
> 
> 
> > line clearance certified
> ...


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## Pelorus (Sep 16, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> bomar said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to keep harping on this, it is not 'Certified', it is 'Qualified'.
> ...


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## pdqdl (Sep 16, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> jefflovstrom said:
> 
> 
> > You're not certified unless you're qualified?
> ...


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## KenJax Tree (Sep 16, 2012)

I know guys that are "certified" that shouldn't even be allowed to run a chain saw.


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## jefflovstrom (Sep 16, 2012)

pdqdl said:


> Pelorus said:
> 
> 
> > I think the suggestion is that "qualified" is real, and certification doesn't really count for anything.
> ...


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## Pelorus (Sep 16, 2012)

KenJax Tree said:


> I know guys that are "certified" that shouldn't even be allowed to run a chain saw.



Some of them take Train the Trainer courses and become instructors somehow.


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## mattfr12 (Sep 17, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> > Ah,
> ...


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## pdqdl (Sep 18, 2012)

Now don't go stirring up old grudges! Jeff & I are on the same page on this one.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Certified means that at some point in time, you could pass somebody's written test. Qualified means that you know what you are doing.


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## Pelorus (Sep 18, 2012)

Curious if "qualified" means you passed somebody's written / practical test to earn the qualification? And what has to be done to maintain that qualification - ie. achieving a set amount of CEU's in a given time frame? Periodic practical re-tests? It must be confusing, (mebbe even to the point of being meaningless) to Joe Public when monikers like "arborist", "certified arborist", "certified tree worker", "ISA certified arborist", "line clearance qualified" are advertised. Someone whose ISA CA certification expires could certainly advertise themselves as a "Qualified Arborist" or a "Certified Arborist" with zero adverse financial impact. (Depending on business location). That's the way it is up here, so I see very little incentive for tree companies to spend time and money on employees getting and maintaining proffesional credentials.


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## peetar (Sep 19, 2012)

No need to be angry.

Climbing takes a skill set that bucket work does not. All climbers (competent), can figure out how to work out of a bucket; not all bucket operators could ever be able to climb.

A climber given a bucket is going to do far less damage than a bucket baby will ever do.


I would never think about going back to tree work full time (at 42), but with a bucket and a mini-skidd, I can go another 10-15 years. They don't grow much more than 100ft. in the midwest, so having to climb 25ft and dealing with 12-14 in. wood (aloft) is a God send.

I have more respect than I could express for the guys in the NW, but I'm glad I'm where I'm at. All I want to do is complete the job at hand, go home at night, and not feel like I got in a car wreck in the morning.


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## pdqdl (Sep 19, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> Curious if "qualified" means you passed somebody's written / practical test to earn the qualification? And what has to be done to maintain that qualification - ie. achieving a set amount of CEU's in a given time frame? Periodic practical re-tests? It must be confusing, (mebbe even to the point of being meaningless) to Joe Public when monikers like "arborist", "certified arborist", "certified tree worker", "ISA certified arborist", "line clearance qualified" are advertised. Someone whose ISA CA certification expires could certainly advertise themselves as a "Qualified Arborist" or a "Certified Arborist" with zero adverse financial impact. (Depending on business location). That's the way it is up here, so I see very little incentive for tree companies to spend time and money on employees getting and maintaining proffesional credentials.



I suspect the answer to those questions is entirely dependent upon whom you ask.

All the ISA certifications mean that you could pass a written test. For Joe Public, that should be good enough to trust the certification to do the job. For those of us that really know what we are doing, the ISA certification really doesn't mean jack s... For those arborists who consider themselves qualified, that is just an opinion that they can advertise or not. Myself...I am both certified and qualified for general tree maintenance. I was qualified (in my own, not so humble opinion) long before I obtained the certification.

When it comes to line clearance, that is an entirely different matter. Qualified means that you have had all the necessary training and experience to be thoroughly competent. I think OSHA has some rather particular definitions for "qualified", but I don't know those rules. Since I am NOT qualified for any sort of line clearance, I'll have to defer further comment to those folks that read this thread. Jeff L, I believe, and many others here at AS can tell you more.

I am not certain, but I believe that an ISA BCMA certification certainly requires respect from anybody in the business. There are many other agencies in the US and worldwide that have their own certifications. Some of these, I am sure, are quite comprehensive, while other will be not quite so good.


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## pdqdl (Sep 19, 2012)

Pelorus said:


> ... That's the way it is up here, so I see very little incentive for tree companies to spend time and money on employees getting and maintaining proffesional credentials.



Yep. I'm not much different in that respect, either. My current ISA membership is currently lapsed. They want too much money, and I just don't have that kind of cash to throw around. 

I'm still certified for quite a while yet...


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## arborealbuffoon (Sep 19, 2012)

peetar said:


> All I want to do is complete the job at hand, go home at night, and not feel like I got in a car wreck in the morning.



I have tried and tried, and still haven't expressed myself that clearly and concisely.

I would love to steal THAT quote and perhaps make it my sig........

Yup, it's true, I am a whiny little beoch when I get all torn up these days in the mundane pursuit of a dollar. Not worth it on so many levels.


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## treemandan (Sep 19, 2012)

jefflovstrom said:


> pdqdl said:
> 
> 
> > Ah,
> ...


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## treemandan (Sep 19, 2012)

peetar said:


> No need to be angry.
> All I want to do is complete the job at hand, go home at night, and not feel like I got in a car wreck in the morning.



Uh, yer in the wrong business fer that.


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## treemandan (Sep 19, 2012)

but that,right: Don't get angry, just retire.


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## Naked Arborist (Sep 21, 2012)

If you are "so angry" you should get out now before the anger causes a distraction, clouds your judgement and someone gets hurt.


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