# Chainsaw Mill Setup? (I know, I know - not the first to ask, won't be the last)



## Yellowbeard (Apr 6, 2013)

I've been browsing through posts on this site for the past few days. I did some milling last week with a setup that belongs to a friend (Alaskan 36" on a Stihl MS460). 

We had milled some stuff before and I really liked it. That hasn't changed, except perhaps to have made my love of this stronger.

Now, before you say "just get a band saw mill" or something to that end, you should know that this will really be a hobby for now only. I make furniture a bit and my wife is an architect, so I may end up using the lumber for a number of projects. Mainly I just hate to see a good tree go to waste, so I want to be able to go slab up windfalls and other trees. My family also has 135 acres with a number of species on it so I may cut some wood there on occasion.

Really I am a high school biology teacher by trade, so I will be able to go mill in summers and on weekends - I am looking for a setup that will let me do milling out in the woods, where the log is (I don't have a trailer as yet, nor lifting equipment - just an old Toyota 4X4 that will let me get my equipment close to the log). I guess I like milling so much because, while I sometimes see light bulbs go on in the heads of my students, actually telling when you're making progress is hard - not so with milling. I end up with a pile of lumber I can see RIGHT THERE and that feels good. Here's what we did last weekend (please don't laugh - I already have log envy but we all have to start somewhere).

View attachment 288667
View attachment 288668
View attachment 288669


For a regular saw, I am still using my dad's old WB 028. It says "made in West Germany" on the case, so that gives you an idea of it's age. I DON'T plan to try and use this saw for milling, so don't worry.

I was going to look at an 066, but having read through a lot of the forums, I think that I am going to try and pick up an 075/076 in decent shape and then fix anything necessary to fix (I built a car in high school, which was quite some time ago, but I think I can still remember enough to work on a saw, I hope - if not, I have some contacts the the local Stihl dealer who can probably help). While I would love to get a bigger saw/newer saw/whatever, as I mentioned, I do have a wife, and so I don't want to start TOO strong a case of CAD too quickly. I think I could try this out, use it 10-15 times per year and it wouldn't break the bank. 

Power head chosen (though I am sure there will be comments about this choice, so please let me know!) I am planning on running a 42" bar (not sure what kind yet - ya'll seem to have a LOT of advice about bars) on a Panther II 48" mill for starters. I live in Arkansas, and so far I have only been cutting smaller red oaks (smaller meaning in the 15"-18" range). However, I want to be able to go larger and also want to be able to make crotch cuts if I feel like it.

Not sure about chain yet, but I am thinking about some Grandberg .325x.063 Ripping Chain. Haven't decided yet if I should just buy it on a roll or what. Advice would be helpful.

I would love to start out at around $600-750 or so (I was going to put that toward a new gun, but I decided that saw would probably be more practical at this point).

I guess what I want to know is: Does this sound like a reasonable setup to start with? I KNOW from having read a bunch of the forums that you will all have lots of comments, but that's what I want. I tend to try and do a lot of research before getting into something. Sometimes I can go ahead and just burn myself out on the research and not ever actually end up spending money (wish me luck .

Comments? Sorry to post this as a new thread, but I couldn't figure out a better place to put it, given the specific question.

Thanks in advance!


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## BobL (Apr 6, 2013)

Another one got the bug, don't worry - it will pass - eventually :msp_biggrin:

A 42" bar to cut 15-18" logs is a tad overkill. I would get a shorter bar for milling those logs but if you can only afford one bar then a 42" is a fair start.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 6, 2013)

BobL said:


> Another one got the bug, don't worry - it will pass - eventually :msp_biggrin:
> 
> A 42" bar to cut 15-18" logs is a tad overkill. I would get a shorter bar for milling those logs but if you can only afford one bar then a 42" is a fair start.



Well, of course, of course. Hoping to go after some bigger trees eventually, of course. I might start with a smaller bar. Like I said - would like to also be able to mill a fork (or crotch or Y or whatever is the proper term). Actually have one in mind from the tree in the pics above. The biggest problem with this size bar afaik is that it won't fit in the extended cab of the truck while on the saw, meaning I'll have to either put the saw in the bed or take everything apart.

So, other than the obvious (biting off more than I can chew, perhaps) does the setup above sound reasonable?

Thanks for replying!


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## mad murdock (Apr 6, 2013)

Welcome to the wonderful world of wood! There is a guy on Eugene craigslist (Oregon) who is selling an 090 and a 076 with bars, chains, and a 60" Alaskan. For around the same money he is asking you can get a new Logosol M8 from baileys, on sale now for 1799. Or you can go way cheaper and get a new Timberjig, for 99.00 from baileys, on sale right now too. I am waiting for mi Timberjig to arrice(ordered it the other day). I have an Alaskan mill and have done a lot with it, and will continue to use it. I like the versatility of Logosol's Bigmill System. Start with the Timberjig and if you want you can upgrade from there. As far as saws go, the sky is the limit. I have a saw or 3.....well maybe I have over a dozen now, but who's counting look around for a good used power head, go 70cc at least anything smaller is just brutal punishment for you and the saw when milling with a CSM.


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## mtngun (Apr 8, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Not sure about chain yet, but I am thinking about some Grandberg .325x.063 Ripping Chain. Haven't decided yet if I should just buy it on a roll or what.


The kerf of 325 is just as wide as the kerf of 3/8.

3 loops is all you need for a day's milling, so it's hard to justify buying a roll.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 8, 2013)

mtngun said:


> The kerf of 325 is just as wide as the kerf of 3/8.
> 
> 3 loops is all you need for a day's milling, so it's hard to justify buying a roll.



Good point. I have found that changing to a sharp chain really cuts down on time getting through a log. How much good would just honing the chain between cuts do?

Thanks for the advice. Looking at the available bars for this saw, there's no way to go smaller than 3/8 chain anyway, is there? These are things I am still learning.

W.C.


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## mad murdock (Apr 8, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Good point. I have found that changing to a sharp chain really cuts down on time getting through a log. How much good would just honing the chain between cuts do?
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Looking at the available bars for this saw, there's no way to go smaller than 3/8 chain anyway, is there? These are things I am still learning.
> 
> W.C.


This is just my experiene-others may have different results. I started milliing with 3/8 ripping chain (Baileys woodland pro-rebadged carlton chain). Was good chain. After about 5,000 bd feet, I worked through the first 2 loops I bought. I decided to switch to the low profile Stihl Picco chain, and would not turn back, it cuts faster, and cust nice. It is more expensive, but it also oils better, with the oil-o-matic feature of the drive and interconnect links. These have been my hands on observations, using both sizes of chain with the same saw (Husky 372XPW). If you go to this setup, you can run 3/8" .050 guide bar, and drive rim, just want to use a new drive rim with the picco chain, not one you used on a 3/8 chain. There is a slight difference, but not noticable.


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## psgflier (Apr 8, 2013)

I started out with a 480 Husky, and filed my own chains to rip. The 480 wasn't big enough for more than a 24" bar ripping, so I got a 394. That worked real good for up to a 36" bar. This is using an Alaska mIII, so you lose about 4' plus on the cut. Filing a crosscut chain to a rip cut was a big improvement, and going to a ground rip chain an improvement over that. I used a 3/8" 50 gauge chain.
I carried a couple of bars and chains with me, used a longer bar to break down the log, then switched to a shorter one to mill the lumber. It makes a big difference in the length of chain your pulling, and what your not using in the cut is still loading down the saw.
I filed the chain with a file&joint at home to get the chain true and sharp, then touch up the teeth as needed when cutting. If I cut hemlock I can get 4 or 5 cuts between sharpening, Spruce a couple, and yellow cedar I have to sharpen every cut. Knocking the bark off in the cut line helps a lot. That's easy to do in spring cut logs, hard in winter wood.
I used the Alaska mill for years. It's a little lite duty, and I had to make a few repairs, but it worked good. One of the end pieces finally broke so I retired it.
I bought a Panther mill to replace the Alaska mill, and I've got to say I'm kind of underwhelmed with it. It's steel, which you might think is a good thing, but that makes it pretty heavy. On mine there are no marks on the posts for setting depth of cut, and the fit and finish is a little rough. It was less expensive than the Alaska mill, and tougher, but I got over 30 years use out of the Alaska mill, and cut a lot of wood.
Carl


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## BobL (Apr 9, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Good point. I have found that changing to a sharp chain really cuts down on time getting through a log. How much good would just honing the chain between cuts do? .



If by honing you mean a quick cutter touch up then yes, especially if you are cutting hardwood. I get about 32 sq ft between touch ups on aussie hardwood so you should get double that with your softwoods.

If you mean "honing with a hone" then no. To sharpen the cutters you physically have to remove a little bit of chrome plating from the cutter edge to create a no glint edge - this gets the cutter as sharp as it will be - honing is waste of time on a CS.


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## mtngun (Apr 9, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> How much good would just honing the chain between cuts do?



I can swap a chain in far less time than it takes to file a chain, and files cannot duplicate the angles on a Malloff ripping chain. Plus it's a royal pain to file a chain while mounted on an Alaskan.

Since you have decided on a 075/076 then 3/8 chain, ground to the Malloff angles, is the logical choice. It does not matter whether it is 0.050" or 0.063", but 0.063" bars will be easier to find for that saw.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 9, 2013)

mtngun said:


> I can swap a chain in far less time than it takes to file a chain, and files cannot duplicate the angles on a Malloff ripping chain. Plus it's a royal pain to file a chain while mounted on an Alaskan.
> 
> Since you have decided on a 075/076 then 3/8 chain, ground to the Malloff angles, is the logical choice. It does not matter whether it is 0.050" or 0.063", but 0.063" bars will be easier to find for that saw.



So let me make sure I understand: I can use a 3/8 chain on either of these bar stocks, correct? I am looking at a 33" Carlton sprocket nose on ebay. Any opinions on that bar? 

I am also now the proud owner of this: View attachment 289537


I got it for $286.60 with shipping on ebay. Stihl 075AV Chainsaw | eBay

Also, while I appreciate what you said about the Panther (I have used the Alaskan and the fact that it was made from aluminum and therefore light(er) was certainly something I saw as a plus. OTOH, I can buy twice the length of mill for half the price of an Alaskan, and, as I am not yet sure how far I will go in this obsession (er... hobby), that's pretty tempting. However, the lack of depth marks does bother me. Does anyone know if that's still the case with the Panthers?

I'm just stoked to possibly be going for around the $600 mark for mill, saw, bar and a couple of chains. Just cross your fingers for me that the saw runs strongly.

Any and all advice still welcome.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 9, 2013)

BobL said:


> If by honing you mean a quick cutter touch up then yes, especially if you are cutting hardwood. I get about 32 sq ft between touch ups on aussie hardwood so you should get double that with your softwoods.
> 
> If you mean "honing with a hone" then no. To sharpen the cutters you physically have to remove a little bit of chrome plating from the cutter edge to create a no glint edge - this gets the cutter as sharp as it will be - honing is waste of time on a CS.



I should have used the word "filing" instead of honing. Sorry. Was thinking in kitchen knife terms. Frankly, I would rather run through several chains and then get them sharpened (I have no experience nor equipment for sharpening at this point). I was just wondering if running a quick file over them between runs would make much difference in the life of the chain and speed of cut. It was taking 20 minutes to get through 9.5 feet of 16" oak. Then I put on a brand new chain and it took 11. That's a heck of a difference. Was wondering where my best trade off between time spent sharpening/changing chains/in the kerf was. Guess I will have to work some of that out through experience.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 9, 2013)

psgflier said:


> I carried a couple of bars and chains with me, used a longer bar to break down the log, then switched to a shorter one to mill the lumber. It makes a big difference in the length of chain your pulling, and what your not using in the cut is still loading down the saw.
> I filed the chain with a file&joint at home to get the chain true and sharp, then touch up the teeth as needed when cutting. If I cut hemlock I can get 4 or 5 cuts between sharpening, Spruce a couple, and yellow cedar I have to sharpen every cut. Knocking the bark off in the cut line helps a lot. That's easy to do in spring cut logs, hard in winter wood.
> 
> Carl



This part seems like really great advice that I should have thought of but wasn't. Pulling the chain costs power, which means the less chain, the less power wasted on pulling chain, therefore the more power used to transfer into the wood. It might mean I should go ahead and get a smaller bar to go along with whatever bigger bar I end up with. 

I will likely try to run something like around a 2' bar, a 3' bar and a 4' bar eventually. I would like to have the option of making much larger cuts if the opportunity presents itself. OTOH, I haven't found anything yet that I couldn't do with my buddy's 30" bar. 

The one thing I /would/ ask about this is this: I read elsewhere on this forum that the 075 has so much torque that you don't want to run it perpendicular to a small log, but rather angle it and use a longer bar so you can get as much chain into the wood at once as possible, as otherwise you are just wasting power. Can anyone comment on this? I also read that you want to run this saw a little bit fat so it will rev a bit slower. While I understand what fat and lean running are, I don't have a practical sense of how fat to run it. Can anyone give me a good standard to use for this?

Also, how do you knock the bark off? What do you use?

Thanks!


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## excess650 (Apr 9, 2013)

If the saw has enough torque to pull it, switch from a 7T rim to 8T rim. This is effectively a "gearing change" that increases chain speed at the expense of torque. Angling the mill in the cut allows it to cut more aggressively as its then not strictly cutting end grain. You could also get a little more aggressive with your raker height so as to take thicker cuts and retain a 7T. Running "fat" or "rich" will help to keep the saw cooler. The idea is to JUST "2 stroke" in the cut, and 4 stroke whenever the load is lessened. Torque is your friend when milling, so is the reason that larger displacement saws are recommended.

You can use an axe, bark spud, or "Log Wizard" to remove bark.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 9, 2013)

excess650 said:


> If the saw has enough torque to pull it, switch from a 7T rim to 8T rim. This is effectively a "gearing change" that increases chain speed at the expense of torque. Angling the mill in the cut allows it to cut more aggressively as its then not strictly cutting end grain. You could also get a little more aggressive with your raker height so as to take thicker cuts and retain a 7T. Running "fat" or "rich" will help to keep the saw cooler. The idea is to JUST "2 stroke" in the cut, and 4 stroke whenever the load is lessened. Torque is your friend when milling, so is the reason that larger displacement saws are recommended.
> 
> You can use an axe, bark spud, or "Log Wizard" to remove bark.



When you say "switch from a 7T rim to an 8T rim is that on the drive gear of the saw itself, I assume? Sorry, pretty newb on a lot of this, but I tend to learn quickly. Thanks in advance for patience. Will this pattern work with standard chain or do I need to make a change? And is it worth exchanging the torque for the speed in this case? Assuming the answer is "yes" or else you wouldn't have suggested it. Also, sorry, I know I saw this somewhere on the forum but I am not sure I understand what raker height is yet (tooth cutting angle? tooth height so the depth of cut is larger with each pass, thus using all that extra power?) Again, sorry to be such a dang amateur, and thanks for the help!


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## scogar (Apr 10, 2013)

> Also, while I appreciate what you said about the Panther (I have used the Alaskan and the fact that it was made from aluminum and therefore light(er) was certainly something I saw as a plus. OTOH, I can buy twice the length of mill for half the price of an Alaskan, and, as I am not yet sure how far I will go in this obsession (er... hobby), that's pretty tempting. However, the lack of depth marks does bother me. Does anyone know if that's still the case with the Panthers?



I recently bought a PantherPro II for my MS 460. I have cut a few hundred board feet of pine with it so far and I am pretty happy with it BUT since it is the only thing I have ever used i have no comparisons. My one real issue is that there is no controllable depth setting. It is a matter of moving the bars to specific positions using a tape measure and careful tightening of the rig - with the saw in place this takes a bit of manipulation and time to do. I have considered drilling a series of holes in the risers(?) through which I could insert a clevis pin so I could set common measurements repeatedly. I think this would be a vast improvement

Scott

PS - no there are not even depth guide measurements it all must be done with a tape measure


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## john taliaferro (Apr 10, 2013)

I carry a few pine boards 1/2 " thick 2 - 3 - 4 " to get a quick set on mill height you can use multiple boards to get 3 1/2 " .


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## psgflier (Apr 11, 2013)

There is a book about chainsaw milling that has some good information. I have a copy somewhere, but I wouldn't know where to look for it now. Some one can probably give you the name of it, but you can probably find it in the public library.
The best thing to do about taking care of your chain is to find someone that knows what they're doing and have them show you how how to sharpen it. There are some videos on u-tube, but they don't have real good close-ups or diagrams that you need if you are starting from scratch. There is also a lot of bs to sort out, which is also tough if you don't know what to look for.
Oregon used to have a pretty good booklet on chains. Bailys or Madsens might still have them. If you learn to file for crosscut properly, filing for ripping will come easier.
When you get used to it, filing the chain on the bar only take a couple of minutes. Unless you rock it, hit a nail, or something else to seriously screw it up, all you have to do is take a couple of light strokes of each tooth. No fooling with the rakers or anything else. Filing between cuts can make a lot of sense depending on the wood,saving wear and tear on the saw as well as gas and oil. I have to sharpen between every cut on yellow cedar, it has a lot of silica in the wood, and eats chain.
I was slabbing some dead white pine for a log cabin years ago, normally cuts like butter. This one log just wouldn't cut. I had to remove the saw from the cut about every 3 feet, smoke was in the air, and not just from me, the chain looked like hammered crap. I could not figure out what I was doing wrong. When the slab finally came off there was a piece of class imbedded in a check in the tree almost the full 16 feet of the log. The tree had grown around the glass and thee was no outward sign of it. 
I have seen some modes to the mill attachment that make it easier to change the chain, but otherwise you have to take the mill off the bar to change a chain.
If you don't have another saw, your going to need a crosscut chain for the log work. It's really nice to have a second saw.
Don't invest too much into bars yet, when you decide you're really into milling, you'll want to invest in a Cannon bar.


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## pastryguyhawaii (Apr 11, 2013)

scogar said:


> I recently bought a PantherPro II for my MS 460. I have cut a few hundred board feet of pine with it so far and I am pretty happy with it BUT since it is the only thing I have ever used i have no comparisons. My one real issue is that there is no controllable depth setting. It is a matter of moving the bars to specific positions using a tape measure and careful tightening of the rig - with the saw in place this takes a bit of manipulation and time to do. I have considered drilling a series of holes in the risers(?) through which I could insert a clevis pin so I could set common measurements repeatedly. I think this would be a vast improvement
> 
> Scott
> 
> PS - no there are not even depth guide measurements it all must be done with a tape measure



I recently got a PantherPro also. I, too, have nothing to compare it to but really like it so far. I scored some lines on the metal but still you have to be careful when tightening it up. If it's an 1/8" off that's what you end up with. I like the idea of drilling the holes.


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## psgflier (Apr 11, 2013)

I just did a search on saw chain sharpening instead of doing my taxes like I'm supposed to. I don't know which is more painfull, some ok stuf, some realy bad stuff.
For anyone looking for good advise on chain care, Stihl has a pretty good video on you-tube. Oregon has their brochure available online as a pdf, and Madsen's has some good information. Here is a link to Madsen's bar and chain guide site Guide Bar & Saw Chain Menu.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 11, 2013)

So, I got the saw in today. HOLY COW. It's like holding a motorcycle engine while it's running. 

It definitely needs some work, but it started up after only 10-12 pulls. After that, it would start right up. 

So, how do you get a chain on this thing? I am guessing you drop it over the (clutch?) first, then put it on the bar. I think I'll have my local shop go through it (assuming it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg - then again, I get the feeling that if I were to let this thing get away from me, or that if it were unsafe during operation that I could EASILY lose both, so....)

Anyway, any advice is welcome. A Carlton speed tip (made in Germany) 33" bar is on it's way. I guess I will make sure the saw is in running order and then buy a mill. Think I'll go ahead and do a panther for now, although I am unsure how I will lift that saw plus a bar PLUS an entirely steel mill. Guess I'll just have to get some muscle on.


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## mad murdock (Apr 11, 2013)

I have never seen a panther mill in person, I have used extensively the Granberg Alaskan III, and I just got the Timberjig, but have not milled with that yet. I have milled with my 075/Alaskan, and it works well. If the panther does not have dimensions on the uprights, I would lean toward an Alaskan, it is a pain to try and measure and adjust all at the same time. Plus the Alaskan has the advantage in not weighing as much with the aluminum components, it is plenty strong too!


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## excess650 (Apr 12, 2013)

Yellowbeard,
Don't get all wrapped up in the initial price of the mill. The Granberg Alaskan can be changed from size to size by swapping rails. Mine was initially 24", but I later bought 36" rails for it, and have left those rails in place. I've had fleeting thoughts of longer rails, but the reality of the weight of the slabs reminds me that 34" maximum cutting width is more than enough.

I have no experience with the Panthers, but it sounds like the lack of markings is a detriment. Engraving your own markings or drilling for locating pins sound like logical modifications IF you have the means to do it accurately. My advice would be to buy a 36" Granberg and be done with it.


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## BobL (Apr 12, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> . . . . ., although I am unsure how I will lift that saw plus a bar PLUS an entirely steel mill. Guess I'll just have to get some muscle on.



It's a pity you are not closer as you could really build up some muscle using my "Latest project" (see my sig line). I started building that mainly steel CSM in 2010. It weighs 87 lbs and it has ally mill rails. It's meant to be a prototype mill for testing ideas out on, - once I had it where I wanted it I was going to get an all ally version made. . . . . Some day, . . . . one day, . . . . . maybe.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 12, 2013)

So, I ended up picking up an Alaskan III 24" NIB on ebay for a best offer of $145. The offer was taken so quickly that I really wish I had offered less, but I'm not going to complain. Going to do exactly what excess650 suggested and just buy a second set of rails (48's). A buddy already has the size in-between (30 or 36 - can't remember) so we can trade around a bit. 

Planning to take the saw into my dealer today and see what they think about it. My bar should be in early next week, and I expect the Alaskan in next week as well. Guess I'll have to get a 24" bar as well so I can try out the mill before buying the bigger rails.

So far, all in, I am only at about $550 (but that doesn't include 48" rails, chains, a second bar, or any potentially necessary saw repair). However, I feel pretty good about it thus far, especially when the 076 Super I was looking at on ebay ended up going for $1145 (but it looked like it was in almost new condition, to be fair). 

I am really thankful for all the help, and as soon as I actually mill something (likely not for a few weeks), I'll post pictures.


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## mtngun (Apr 13, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Guess I'll have to get a 24" bar as well so I can try out the mill before buying the bigger rails.



Your 24" Alaskan needs a 30" - 32" bar. The clamps take up a good 6 inches of the bar.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 13, 2013)

mtngun said:


> Your 24" Alaskan needs a 30" - 32" bar. The clamps take up a good 6 inches of the bar.



Wow. That's very worth knowing. That must mean that my buddy has the 24" Alaskan (he has a 30" bar on it). For some reason I thought he had the 36. That actually makes a lot more sense now. So I'll need a 50-something inch bar to run a 48? I probably won't need that much mill right away. You just saved me a bunch of money. Thanks!

W.C.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 13, 2013)

BobL said:


> It's a pity you are not closer as you could really build up some muscle using my "Latest project" (see my sig line). I started building that mainly steel CSM in 2010. It weighs 87 lbs and it has ally mill rails. It's meant to be a prototype mill for testing ideas out on, - once I had it where I wanted it I was going to get an all ally version made. . . . . Some day, . . . . one day, . . . . . maybe.



Wow. I am... envious. So, you're using that extra nose at the outboard end as a tensioner in order to get more out of each bar - where did you come up with that? Is it something you saw somewhere else or were you just thinking "you know, the tension doesn't have to come from the power-head side - it could come from the opposite end just as easily" and then came up with it? It also eliminates wear on the actual nose of the bar, which is awesome. 

Your saw is in a bit better shape than mine - envious. 

I am also really impressed by how you use found parts for all of this. I was at a neighborhood cleanup the other day and saw a bunch of stuff being thrown away that just killed me, but my wife would have killed me had I hauled any of it home. I did manage to strip a few parts off an old Webber gas grill that would work on the one I have at home, though.


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## BobL (Apr 13, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Wow. I am... envious. So, you're using that extra nose at the outboard end as a tensioner in order to get more out of each bar - where did you come up with that?



Commercially available outboard sprockets, sometimes with Helper Handles have been available for many years - Baileys has these. They are normally used on double ended bars but I managed to pick up a new 44" bar for half RRP regular price so I thought I would just use that instead.



> Your saw is in a bit better shape than mine - envious.


Except for some corrosion on the outside of the oil tank that saw was in very good condition when I bought it - its milled about 100 logs so well and truly earned it's keep.



> I am also really impressed by how you use found parts for all of this. I was at a neighborhood cleanup the other day and saw a bunch of stuff being thrown away that just killed me, but my wife would have killed me had I hauled any of it home. I did manage to strip a few parts off an old Webber gas grill that would work on the one I have at home, though.



I admit I am a bit of a hoarder, but have a very patient wife, who is also not averse to picking up junk just in case it might come in useful. Living on an 1/8th of an acre in an inner city suburb limits me severely as to what I can accumulate - maybe that's a good thing. Most of the stuff, like bits of ally and steel etc I collect are from biannual road side hard garbage collections. I have a Toyota diesel van equipped with tools and can pull over and dismantle pretty much anything on the spot - at the moment I am making a gas forge from fork lift gas tank which I found by the side of the road.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 13, 2013)

BobL said:


> Commercially available outboard sprockets, sometimes with Helper Handles have been available for many years - Baileys has these. They are normally used on double ended bars but I managed to pick up a new 44" bar for half RRP regular price so I thought I would just use that instead.
> 
> [QUOTE[ Your saw is in a bit better shape than mine - envious.
> 
> ...


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## BobL (Apr 14, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> BobL said:
> 
> 
> > Commercially available outboard sprockets, sometimes with Helper Handles have been available for many years - Baileys has these. They are normally used on double ended bars but I managed to pick up a new 44" bar for half RRP regular price so I thought I would just use that instead.
> ...


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## Caghrlos (Apr 21, 2013)

hard in winter wood.


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## flashhole (Apr 21, 2013)

Great thread, I hope you can post pics or a video when you get it set up and running. Good luck.


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## flashhole (Apr 25, 2013)

Not trying to hijack this thread but I have a question and the voice of experience is clearly here.

I have a Husky 394XP with a 32" bar. If I buy an Alaskan Mark III 30" system, how much bar length is sacrificed to the mill attachment? What is the ideal length bar for a 30" mill?

Thanks.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 25, 2013)

flashhole said:


> Not trying to hijack this thread but I have a question and the voice of experience is clearly here.
> 
> I have a Husky 394XP with a 32" bar. If I buy an Alaskan Mark III 30" system, how much bar length is sacrificed to the mill attachment? What is the ideal length bar for a 30" mill?
> 
> Thanks.



This will not be exact (because I don't have it in front of me to measure), but you lose like 4-6 inches of bar when you attach the Alaskan. There's a kind of a metal strap (like the toe of a boot) that goes around the tip of the bar, then a pair of steel clamping bars that clamp down on the actual bar itself right behind the "boot." If memory serves, this eats up 3-4 inches by itself. Then there's a steel clamp bar on the power head side of the bar as well. It eats up another inch or so. Then there's the bar that gets used up if you have your dawgs on, as the power head-side clamp cant go closer to the power head than the end of the dawgs. 

This is what I remember from 3-4 weeks ago the last time I was using a borrowed mill. I haven't put mine together yet and anyway I don't have it in front of me so I can't give you exact measurements, but that's roughly what I remember.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 25, 2013)

In other news: Got a clean bill of health from my local Stihl dealer on my 075, so it looks like the $300 I spent on it (total - that includes shipping and the checkup with some filter changes at the shop) was money well spent. Given what other running 075/076s have been going for on ebay lately, I am, as a Brit would put it, well-chuffed with that result. 

I now have 4 bars - 2 36(?)" Oregon hard noses that I got on this site for a steal. The (?) is because I am not sure if that's cutting length or actual length and I haven't put a tape on them yet to find out. A 33" Carlton sprocket nose (same problem as the Oregons - I haven't actually measured, except this: one of those must be wrong, because the Carlton is only about 1.5" shorter than the Oregon bars). A 25" Tsumura hard nose. Not sure what I'll end up using the Tsumura for as that's really too small for milling and the damn saw is so heavy that I doubt I'll end up crosscutting with it much. 

I bought a 24" Alaskan for $145 on e-bay and am eyeing some 48" rails for it, but I think I'll wait until I have a tree big enough to justify them (not to mention the bar I would have to buy) before purchasing. Speaking of, though, if anyone has a 48+" 3002 bar lying around that they want to get rid of....

Anyone know where I can get the aluminum channel stock that Alaskan uses for the end-cap pieces to attach top rails to? They sure want a lot for them and I can't help thinking that if I could just buy some of that stock (same stock they use for their big rails, actually) then I could just make my own. Advice welcome.

Someone told me they had seen a windfall cherry down in a draw that looked like it could be salvaged but they couldn't figure out how to get the log out. Sounds like a good first project. I'll post pics/video if/when that happens.

Thanks for all the great advice. I feel like I got a mill set up for a very reasonable price mostly because of research and help I got on this site. 

W.C.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, one other thing: I am planning to have my chains made as is recommended here: Chainsaw Chain, Sawchain information for Chainsaw Mills from Procut Sawmills under the heading "Smooth Lumber at a Slower Speed."

Opinions?


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## mtngun (Apr 25, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Oh, one other thing: I am planning to have my chains made as is recommended here: Chainsaw Chain, Sawchain information for Chainsaw Mills from Procut Sawmills under the heading "Smooth Lumber at a Slower Speed."
> 
> Opinions?


Ignore everything on that site and get your milling chain info here. We are the milling chain experts.


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## mtngun (Apr 25, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> I now have 4 bars - 2 36(?)" Oregon *hard noses* that I got on this site for a steal. The (?) is because I am not sure if that's cutting length or actual length and I haven't put a tape on them yet to find out. A 33" Carlton sprocket nose


You'll have to run your chain very loose with a hard nose bar. Sprocket nose is the way to go. 3/8"


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 25, 2013)

mtngun said:


> Ignore everything on that site and get your milling chain info here. We are the milling chain experts.



Ok, then, how should I have my milling chain made then? I am happy to hear advice - that's why I asked. 

Also, would love to know more about sprocket nose versus hard nose and how loose to make the chain - also how to tell when I have it at the right tension. 

Thanks!


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 25, 2013)

Whoops - misread your second post. So, go with the sprocket nose or otherwise would have to run it too loose - got it. But if I /were/ to run a hard nose, how loose and how do I tell? And what are the consequences of running it loose? I am guessing more marks in the wood but would love to know.

Thanks again!

W.C.


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## flashhole (Apr 25, 2013)

If it is too tight it will create excess friction at the tip of the bar and it will get pretty hot. You don't want to smoke a chain. Exactly how loose is something you have to experiment with. Too loose and you run a strong risk of it jumping off the sprocket or bar. Not something I'd want to chance. The sprocket tip is the way to go.


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## BobL (Apr 25, 2013)

My experience with chain tension when milling about 30 odd logs with a 42" hard nose bar was a Goldilocks one. Definitely not tight but not loose either. Too loose and it falls off the bar easier than a sprocket nose. The chain tension just has to be checked a bit more regularly than for a sprocket nose bar. The tricky time to check chain tension is when the bar is still at ambient temp but the chain is hot, ie after a ft or so of cut. If the chain is tensioned correctly at this point and cutting recommenced, when the bar eventually warms up it will expand and tighten the chain. On a hardnose bar the added friction can make enough of a difference to rob a lot of power from the saw and increase B&C wear. Other than this it was not really a problem.


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## mtngun (Apr 26, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> Ok, then, how should I have my milling chain made then? I am happy to hear advice - that's why I asked.



Take any non-safety chain and regrind it to the Malloff grind. Maintain at least a 6 degree raker angle and maybe more. Assuming you have a grinder. Your local saw shop will not have a clue about ripping chain or raker angles.

Bailey's ripping chain is a good place to start but its angles are not optimal for speed.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 26, 2013)

BobL said:


> My experience with chain tension when milling about 30 odd logs with a 42" hard nose bar was a Goldilocks one. Definitely not tight but not loose either. Too loose and it falls off the bar easier than a sprocket nose. The chain tension just has to be checked a bit more regularly than for a sprocket nose bar. The tricky time to check chain tension is when the bar is still at ambient temp but the chain is hot, ie after a ft or so of cut. If the chain is tensioned correctly at this point and cutting recommenced, when the bar eventually warms up it will expand and tighten the chain. On a hardnose bar the added friction can make enough of a difference to rob a lot of power from the saw and increase B&C wear. Other than this it was not really a problem.



So, I am thinking then that an auxiliary oiler is going to be a basic necessity if I am using a hard nose then? Should I drill it at the nose end? If so, where/how? That info about waiting a foot for the chain to heat but what happens after bar expansion is great - thanks. 

What I may do is start with the sprocket nose I have for practice and then move toward using the hard nose bars as I gain experience. 

Also, I get the Goldilocks thing - almost a bit more of an art than a science, eh?


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 26, 2013)

mtngun said:


> Take any non-safety chain and regrind it to the Malloff grind. Maintain at least a 6 degree raker angle and maybe more. Assuming you have a grinder. Your local saw shop will not have a clue about ripping chain or raker angles.
> 
> Bailey's ripping chain is a good place to start but its angles are not optimal for speed.



While I generally agree that my local shop doesn't have much clue about ripping chain, there is a guy there who was an aircraft mechanic for a while as well as a high school shop teacher, so he tends to know a bit more than one would expect. Is a grinder something I can expect the saw shop to have?

They mentioned that they could not make skip chain for me because they didn't have the equipment, but I am not sure if that's the same thing as what you are describing. I don't know what a typical piece of sharpening equipment looks like in a standard shop (whether it's what you are calling a grinder or if it's something else). 

Is a Malloff grind the same as Granberg? I think that's what you're saying here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm but I am not certain of that. I couldn't find Malloff grinds on the web. 

In general, I was getting pretty smooth cuts with the setup I was using before (Granberg chain in most cases on a 30-something inch bar using a Magnum 440 in 20" red oak that had been lying on the ground about 18 months). It was taking around 20 minutes to make it from one end of a 10 foot log to the other with that setup. Then I had the saw shop make another chain for me (I had borrowed the setup from a close friend and wanted to send home an extra chain as thank-you). They didn't have Granberg and they couldn't grind skips in the chain (at least, that's what I recall), so I just had them make me a standard chain. I can't remember if I had them sharpen it in any special way, though they did know I was using it for milling. That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter (it seemed like it cut way faster when new, but slowed at a much quicker rate on subsequent cuts than the Granberg).

In all cases, it seemed like the smoothness was similar. I did find that using rails on every cut worked well, not only because my feeling was that they would tend to smooth out the surface (as BobL said in the same thread I referred to above) but also because they gave me a handy surface from which to hang the saw when I started the cut (which is where, in the past, I have had the most planing work to do). I would prefer smooth to fast, I guess, because I will likely use most lumber I make for furniture, so any time I gain in the woods in exchange for rougher cuts will cost me more in the shop on the planer (plus, as BobL pointed out, it may also cost more wood in the long run). 

So, given my situation: Alaskan Mill mounted on a (variable length/nose type) bar attached to an 075 power head. I would rather go a little slower and get smoother results as mentioned. I am happy to use a Malloff grind if I can, A: figure out/understand what it is and, B: find someone who can make it for me. While I very much like the idea of sharpening/grinding my own chain, I currently don't want to spend the time/space/money to do so and, also, frankly I have learned enough about myself over the years to wonder if I am ready, at this point in my life, to be meticulous enough to do a proper job of it. Given those facts, I would prefer to pay $5 to have my local shop sharpen chain for me (also, it pays, in my experience, to maintain a good relationship with my local dealer). 

I have to say that I am SO grateful to have found this wealth of knowledge and willing help. Thanks.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 26, 2013)

I will also say that I recall seeing somewhere on this site (though I can't recall where at this point) that when using an 075 you could afford to cut a bit more aggressively given the amount of torque available with that saw. I would only wish to do so if I could get at least as smooth of cuts as I was getting with the setup I mentioned earlier. You can see some of the boards I was cutting (though not in close-up) earlier in this thread. I will say that they were smoother than I might have expected and I think they will plane out fairly easily and without much waste. I just wish I had comparison photos (even for my own memory) of the two cuts made by the two types of chain that I mentioned.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 26, 2013)

In general I will say that all the cuts I have made look far more like the right hand picture that BobL posted here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm than the left hand one. In other words, essentially zero washboarding of that type.


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## BobL (Apr 26, 2013)

Yellowbeard said:


> While I generally agree that my local shop doesn't have much clue about ripping chain, there is a guy there who was an aircraft mechanic for a while as well as a high school shop teacher, so he tends to know a bit more than one would expect. Is a grinder something I can expect the saw shop to have?


Yes it is. BTW I know you are a high school teacher and I was also one many moons ago but I don't see that as a criteria for knowing much about chain saws - read on.



> They mentioned that they could not make skip chain for me because they didn't have the equipment, but I am not sure if that's the same thing as what you are describing. I don't know what a typical piece of sharpening equipment looks like in a standard shop (whether it's what you are calling a grinder or if it's something else).


Either they don't know much or are just avoiding doing a bit of work. While making up a new skip chain from individual links is a PITA, there is a simpler way and that is to cut or grind off the unwanted cutters. This method significantly limits the type of skip chain that can be made but a simple L-R cutter pair, cut off two cutters, L-R cutter pair type skip chain can be made this way. Maybe it's a softwood thing but found skip did not work for me in Aussie hardwoods. Sure it can be touched up quickly but it also went blunt quickly so that on some long wide cuts I had to remove the mill from the cut and touch up the chain. Regular chain takes longer to sharpen but is does not go blunt as quickly.



> Is a Malloff grind the same as Granberg? I think that's what you're saying here: http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/193938-2.htm but I am not certain of that. I couldn't find Malloff grinds on the web.


 sort of. I wouldn't worry about malloff or granberg grinds until you get more experience with regular chain.



> In general, I was getting pretty smooth cuts with the setup I was using before (Granberg chain in most cases on a 30-something inch bar using a Magnum 440 in 20" red oak that had been lying on the ground about 18 months). It was taking around 20 minutes to make it from one end of a 10 foot log to the other with that setup. Then I had the saw shop make another chain for me (I had borrowed the setup from a close friend and wanted to send home an extra chain as thank-you). They didn't have Granberg and they couldn't grind skips in the chain (at least, that's what I recall), so I just had them make me a standard chain. I can't remember if I had them sharpen it in any special way, though they did know I was using it for milling. That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter (it seemed like it cut way faster when new, but slowed at a much quicker rate on subsequent cuts than the Granberg).


It sounds like your rakers need attention. Even with poorly set rakers a chain will cut when it is first sharpened but then as the cutters loose their bite they will slow right down. If you take and post a close up directly side on photo of a chain cutter and raker I will diagnose if this is a problem. 



> In all cases, it seemed like the smoothness was similar. I did find that using rails on every cut worked well, not only because my feeling was that they would tend to smooth out the surface (as BobL said in the same thread I referred to above) but also because they gave me a handy surface from which to hang the saw when I started the cut (which is where, in the past, I have had the most planing work to do). I would prefer smooth to fast, I guess, because I will likely use most lumber I make for furniture, so any time I gain in the woods in exchange for rougher cuts will cost me more in the shop on the planer (plus, as BobL pointed out, it may also cost more wood in the long run).


Slow cutting will generally create smooth cuts but slow cutting will eventually become irritating - it is possible to get fast and smooth. The problem with "fast" is that to do this you need shallow Top plate cutting angles and higher raker angles which it is accompanied by more vibe, jerkiness, slamming into cuts etc which need to be avoided if you want a fair finish.


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## Yellowbeard (Apr 26, 2013)

BobL said:


> Yes it is. BTW I know you are a high school teacher and I was also one many moons ago but I don't see that as a criteria for knowing much about chain saws - read on.
> 
> 
> Either they don't know much or are just avoiding doing a bit of work. While making up a new skip chain from individual links is a PITA, there is a simpler way and that is to cut or grind off the unwanted cutters. This method significantly limits the type of skip chain that can be made but a simple L-R cutter pair, cut off two cutters, L-R cutter pair type skip chain can be made this way. Maybe it's a softwood thing but found skip did not work for me in Aussie hardwoods. Sure it can be touched up quickly but it also went blunt quickly so that on some long wide cuts I had to remove the mill from the cut and touch up the chain. Regular chain takes longer to sharpen but is does not go blunt as quickly.
> ...



First off, let me second the opinion that one doesn't need to be a teacher (or even college educated, etc.) to know stuff. I didn't mean to imply that. I was in construction before I was a teacher and knew a lot of guys who were very wise. My great uncle was one of the smartest men I ever knew (a real jack of all trades) and I don't think he got past 8th grade. Also, I am first to say to my students that it is absolutely NOT the case that one needs a college education to be successful. It was just that, in this particular case, this is an older guy who really seems to pay attention and know what he's doing. I guess the fact that he taught is really kind of incidental; I was just trying to illustrate that he actually did seem to understand my questions and even pointed out things that I didn't know (obviously easy to do, especially on this subject).

Maybe what he said was that he couldn't make the teeth correctly (as in - like the granberg chains I had) but could only grind them off - a lot of the problem is probably my poor memory.

So it sounds to me like you are recommending staring with a full tooth chain and cutting my teeth, as it were, correct? Unfortunately, I can't post a pic of the chain in question right now because it's gone back to my buddy's house in Kansas. However, I can (and will) post a picture if I get the same problem again - thanks for being willing to look at it.

I know that I have a LOT to learn when it comes to chains. I suspect that I am going to have to just do some cutting and see what happens (sort of what you're suggesting, I guess), then go from there.

Thanks!


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## mtngun (Apr 27, 2013)

From the milling sticky at the top of the forum:












Your local saw shop will likely not have a clue how to sharpen to Malloff specs as very few people do, even on this forum, and the grinding wheel has to be modified, which the shop is unlikely to do. At best, the shop will give you a 10 degree grind similar to Woodland Pro milling chain. 

I'll have to disagree with BobL about cutting fast and smooth at the same time. 



> That chain took 12 minutes to make it's first cut, then slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY on cuts thereafter


It sounds like the chain was dull, probably because it hit dirt or something. I typically get 6 - 8 passes before it's time to swap chains. Each pass will be a little slower -- and smoother -- than the previous pass.


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