# banning use of owb in ohio



## excalibur1983 (Feb 17, 2008)

The OHIO EPA has drafted a proposal to regulate the use of OWB's emissions. I think this is a BUNCH of B.S. Everyone you know that has a OWB or sells them in OH is going to be affected by the law if it is adopted. Written comments can be mailed to the Division of Air Pollution Control, Ohio EPA, P.O. Box 1049, Columbus, Ohio 43216-1049. All comments must be received by Friday, March 7, 2008. Ohio EPA will consider all comments before it formally proposes the rule changes. When the rules are formally proposed, Ohio EPA will hold a public hearing and offer another public comment period before any rules are adopted. 


Here is a the web address with a summery of the proposal:

http://www.epa.state.oh.us/pic/nr/2008/february/OWBRules.html

Hope everyone in Ohio sends them a letter disagreeing with this!!!!!


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## beerman6 (Feb 17, 2008)

burn good would and meet the setback and other rules and it wont be banned,is what I read.


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## excalibur1983 (Feb 17, 2008)

Untill 2015 then if it doesn't meet the emmissions reg. of 032 pmmb it must be removed or placed out of service. The stack hight has to be 5 feet above the roofline if with in 150 feet of the OWB.
synopsis
http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/regs/3745-115/3745-115SYNIP.pdf

definitions
http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/regs/3745-115/3745-115-01.pdf

requirments
http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/regs/3745-115/3745-115-02.pdf


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## olyman (Feb 17, 2008)

EVERYONE in the state needs to fight this--woodburner in house--fireplace--or owb--as the trash that will start coming down the pike will be unbelieveable--and other states will try to model after it--------STOP THIS TRASH BILL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kneejerk Bombas (Feb 17, 2008)

What is the problem?
You have 7 years to stop blowing smoke on your neighbor. They want a low polluting stove, a decent setback from property lines, and safe smoke stack.
Seems reasonable to me.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 17, 2008)

I agree with Bombas, I have no problem with these rules. The only one that sucks is the stack above the roof rule. If I had to follow that rule my stack would be about 25' high.

All this says is burn clean fuel and dont burn in the summer when your neighbors are outside. It seems to me that a rule like this could help save OWB's from a complete banning like they are doing in the Northeast


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## Lignum (Feb 17, 2008)

The restrictions are not all that unfeasible. The voters banned smoking in any workplace because of health issues, so I can see them picking on the OWB. From what I seen, the owners burn any trash wood, green, rotten, all of it and it does smoke up the area. Perhaps all they need is a 20-25 foot tall stack and that would solve the problem.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 17, 2008)

Lignum said:


> From what I seen, the owners burn any trash wood, green, rotten, all of it and it does smoke up the area.



Way to put all OWB owners into one category. :monkey: 

Dont forget tires and plastic:bang:


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## Mr. Firewood (Feb 17, 2008)

I'll oppose it just because it bans burning tires, tires = free heat LOL

I like my wood furnace because it is vented up the chimney and people just think it is a fireplace fire, I have a small OWB sitting on my patio just so that I am grandfathered, I plan on hooking it up in the next year or two


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## Lignum (Feb 17, 2008)

HUSKYMAN said:


> Way to put all OWB owners into one category. :monkey:
> 
> Dont forget tires and plastic:bang:





I did not put *all* OWB owners into that category, you did. From what I wrote, I stated that from "what I seen".

That does not make a rule stating that all do that, just the ones that I have seen locally in my area. The burning of green wood and junk (wood) has been the major draw to those who I personally know have purchased them.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 17, 2008)

Lignum said:


> I did not put *all* OWB owners into that category, you did. From what I wrote, I stated that from "what I seen".
> 
> That does not make a rule stating that all do that, just the ones that I have seen locally in my area. The burning of green wood and junk (wood) has been the major draw to those who I personally know have purchased them.



OK thanks for that clarification. While mine burns green wood fine it does make more ash and smoke and I avoid it if I can. Had to burn some tonight because I just built my place and I have not had a full year to season any wood. I always point out to my buddies how much better and how my cycle times for the fan are a lot shorter on seasoned wood so no one tries to ban them around here. 

I actually am a big fan of fining those caught burning tires, trash etc very heavily. We only have one planet


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## Sawmill (Feb 17, 2008)

I can see restrictions on them in towns. but I would like to know how much the oil and gas companies are pushing for these regulations. I am talking about the places that deliver gas and oil.


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## Lignum (Feb 17, 2008)

HUSKYMAN said:


> OK thanks for that clarification. While mine burns green wood fine it does make more ash and smoke and I avoid it if I can. Had to burn some tonight because I just built my place and I have not had a full year to season any wood. I always point out to my buddies how much better and how my cycle times for the fan are a lot shorter on seasoned wood so no one tries to ban them around here.
> 
> I actually am a big fan of fining those caught burning tires, trash etc very heavily. We only have one planet




I thought you were joking about the tires, that's hilarious!


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## blizzard (Feb 17, 2008)

why is that hilarious? people caught burning tires should be heavily fined. that kinda crap shouldn't be allowed.


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## cmetalbend (Feb 17, 2008)

*You have got to be SHI*ing me*

Well here's my take. First it's the stack height, and the smoke, next it's the apprearence(big wood piles of dead rotting wood), then the safty factor(near a heavly wooded area) then on to people with allergies and how it creates reactions for them. Just another ploy by the gov. Giving them back control of How and what natural resources we use. As far as you folks that think the smoke is an inviromental issue. TELL IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO START FOREST FIRES. I'm tellin ya next we'll have to have permits, take classes, get licenced, equipment inspected, wood inspected, and there be only certain types of wood you can burn. My luck not what I have avaliable. And trust me sure as I set here, it will never end. And you will have to pay for everthing I listed just above. More revenue to Who? sure as he** not me. Ya great idea, just remember you said that.:angry2: Sorry guy's but I strongly DISAGREE.


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## rx7145 (Feb 17, 2008)

The thing I don't like is the stack height. So what if I smoke out myself? It should be 10ft above any house not heated with the OWB with in 150ft. Also the 200ft from the property is BS also. I own 2 acres but live in the center of a big field. The closest neighbors are 800ft away. I have never had anyone complain about the smoke. Which makes sense because 90% of the people on my road heat with wood. 

I hate over reaching government. I wish it was local and not the state government.


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## Lignum (Feb 18, 2008)

blizzard said:


> why is that hilarious? people caught burning tires should be heavily fined. that kinda crap shouldn't be allowed.




What is hilarious is not the fact that people are doing that, but the fact that people actually think that they can burn tires anyway. If you want to look like your burning down your house go ahead, but a freaking tire? Talk about hillbilly.


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## acer saccharum (Feb 18, 2008)

Ohio is not the only place, the town of Ringwood NJ is also considering similar restrictions with respect to stack height and setbacks. It was reported in the Bergen Record within the past few weeks, however I'm unable to find the article online. The artice said they had complaints about OWBs on two different properties and were considering regulations to deal with it.


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## ray benson (Feb 18, 2008)

There are a lot of articles in the news about regulating or banning OWB's. 
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071202/BIZ/712020314/-1/BIZ


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## bassman (Feb 18, 2008)

what you have here are a few people that can write really good letters to people that can make changes.
I think that OWB's are great and I have one so I see first hand what they can do and why it can piss off the neibours...
I am glad my closest neibour is far enough away that if I was to burn tires they would not get smoke in there faces..
you people in areas that are trying to ban boilers need to watch out for guys burning junk next to political strongarms and get a few smart people with framed papers behind them protesting how good a boiler can be when they are used properly.
this kind of stuff is all around us .... my cousin has a sport bike that will hit 50 mph in first gear and 160 mph in a few seconds when the posted speed limit is 60 mph!!!!!
yet they still sell these bikes by the thousands every year .
basicly if your making lots of smoke with junk wood and burning tires don't do it when "they" are watching......


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## oneoldbanjo (Feb 18, 2008)

This is my first year with a OWB and I love it - I have 27 acres, my furnace is 300 feet from any property line and my closest neighbors are 400 feet away and burn wood in an indoor woodburner......all is peaceful in my neighborhood.

When it is really cold out our furnace works great, burns clean and keeps us very comfortable. This has been a very strange winter however and last week it was 18 degrees, yesterday it was 56 and this morning it was 36 and it is supposed to get down below 20 again this week. When the weather goes from 18 to 56 - my furnace blower doesn't come on for a long time and when it does......it smokes like crazy for a while. Also during periods when the air is still and damp - the smoldering OWB makes a pretty nasty smell around our property as it just isn't burning cleanly and there is no wind to take the smoke away. Currently I have a strange mix wood from the land clearing that is well seasoned - however the quality varies as it has been sitting outside uncovered for three years - so sometimes we get really good wood and sometimes it is kind of wet and punky. I should have all that old wood burned up this winter and next year I will be using the wood that is in the 18x20 metal carport that we built right next to the OWB. If I know in advance what the weather is going to do I can plan ahead somewhat and make smaller fires that burn more efficiently - but I often have evening meetings and need to put enough wood in to last 14-16 hours as I leave the house at 5:30 AM and often don't get home again until 10 PM.

Now to bring this response ON THREAD - I am the City Engineer for 3 small towns in Kentucky and the Zoning Administrator and Building Inspector for 1 of those towns. All these towns have some streets where the lots are small and the property is 40 - 80 feet wide and about 125 feet deep. Currently we have no ordinances that would prohibit the use of an OWB in town - except for an Ordinance that prohibits "Any use that creates objectionable noise, odors or vapors". I love my OWB and I would hate to give it up - but I don't believe that they could work in the residential areas where neighbors are so close together. On a warm, damp day with little wind - I am sure I could upset every neighbor within 800 feet of me. On some days the smoke from my woodburner rises and seems to be of little problem - on other days the smoke rises a bit then drops to ground level and doesn't disspate well.

I can't see how an OWB can be used in a residential area that is densly populated - it is sure to become a nuisance and a real irritant to the neighbors. In most cases you can locate your woodburner in a downwind location on your property - some of your neighbors won't be so lucky and someone will always be getting your smoke. I am not sure what would be written into reasonable regulations - the ban on burning garbage, tires, shingles, etc. certainly seems reasonable to me......But I also believe that a ban on the use of OWB in densly populated areas is also reasonable. If you have less than an acre of ground and can't keep your woodburner several hundred feet away from your neighbors property and frequently send your smoke over onto the neighbors property and make their house smell like smoke - chances are there will be some unhappy neighbors.


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## habanero (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm not a fan of government regulation of anything, but I have to say I can in *some instances* see the need for something to be done with OWB's. I drive by one every night on my way home from work and there are times (probably at least 1 night a week) it nearly creates a traffic hazard because the smoke blowing across the road is so thick. If I lived next to that guy I'd certainly not be a happy camper. All this being said I drive by others that you almost never see any smoke at all coming from, so I'd never say they are all bad. But it's like everything else, the bad ones ruin it for everybody.


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## Zodiac45 (Feb 18, 2008)

This is a tough subject. While I love the concept, (of OWB's) I can see where it could be problematic(as oldbango and some others stated). For people with larger properties that can hang with the regs and don't "abuse" it by causing inordenant polution they work great and I don't foresee any problems. Generally speaking, what usually happens is someone pushes the limits and then everyone suffers for it. 

It's sort of like junked cars up here in Maine. For years it was tolerated to have one in your yard for parts or whatever as long as it was out back. Then certain people began too push the bounderies and have yards full of junk. These became eyesores and the few (offenders) effected the many. Now we have legislation coming into play were you can have all the cars you want, but they must be registered, insured, and inspected. You see my point. It's always a few irresponsible people who ruin it for the majority of others.

I don't currently own one but have been considering a boiler to tandem with my oil/steam system. I do have a large cookstove in the kitchen and another small chimney flued Jotul too. I like not having any or very small oil bills. I have enough property that I don't have too worry but I have seen one (OWB) in town (at a tool rental business) that on foggy (low pressure) days smokes up the whole area. I live on the sea coast and guess what? We get allot of foggy days. This guy's irresponsibility is whats going to ruin it for others.


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## mantis (Feb 18, 2008)

This is what I know.OWB do not come cheap.4-6 grand for some.Burning tires is a great way to ruin the OWB.In this GREAT Socialist State of NEW YORK,our Govenor with the big ears has proposed banning them all together.What it comes down to IMO is MONEY.The government is missing out on all of that tax money people do not claim selling wood. I cut my own, so to heat my house only cost me a few gallons of gas.and a lot of back beaking work.Multipy that by a few million and how much money does BIG BROTHER miss out on?They say it is in the name of safety,but who is kidding who?If every one has to PAY for oil just thing of all that tax revenue!!! This is where it starts,once they take your freedom away you never get it back.OWB's now then what? it won't stop there


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## cmetalbend (Feb 18, 2008)

mantis said:


> This is what I know.OWB do not come cheap.4-6 grand for some.Burning tires is a great way to ruin the OWB.In this GREAT Socialist State of NEW YORK,our Govenor with the big ears has proposed banning them all together.What it comes down to IMO is MONEY.The government is missing out on all of that tax money people do not claim selling wood. I cut my own, so to heat my house only cost me a few gallons of gas.and a lot of back beaking work.Multipy that by a few million and how much money does BIG BROTHER miss out on?They say it is in the name of safety,but who is kidding who?If every one has to PAY for oil just thing of all that tax revenue!!! This is where it starts,once they take your freedom away you never get it back.OWB's now then what? it won't stop there



Yup, just another revenue they need to get their hands in, that's all this really is. And their method of attack is the environmental issue's. It always stem's from the petition's who need more money, or at least they're the one's profiting from it. You decide. Kinda like Ambulance chasers. Someone leads the path and they end up profiting.


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## Husky137 (Feb 18, 2008)

That may be the case in other places but it doesn't hold water in Massachusetts. No tax on home heating oil or firewood.

I see many more smoky woodstoves and fireplaces than OWB's. I bet for every one OWB running his rig poorly there are 50 idiots smoking out the hood with their choked down, green wood burning woodstoves.


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## lxt (Feb 18, 2008)

Anything that will take money away from a utility or service provider that the Govt regulates makes them un happy!!

In my area a gentleman put up a windmill nice looking unit!! he used it for supplemental electric, well he found out if he put up 1-more he would be self sufficient & even have the ability on occasion to overproduce electric supply, which the utility must buy from him!!

Now these windmills were built in good taste, it didnt look like some arizona wind farm or anything, well..........an ordinance was put into place forbidding anyone to put up windmills!! It says more than that but I simplified it, he is allowed to keep his but no one can purchase or build one of these now!!

tax is not charged on fuel oil to customers but is charged to the supplier & there are many, hazmat tax, road tax, regular tax, transport tax(different from road) if im not mistaken there is a spill/cleanup tax..forget the right wording, but this is just a sample...probably more than 1/2 the fuel oil bill is tax the supplier pays...........you just pay a flat rate.


LXT..................


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## mantis (Feb 18, 2008)

Husky137 said:


> That may be the case in other places but it doesn't hold water in Massachusetts. No tax on home heating oil or firewood.
> 
> I see many more smoky woodstoves and fireplaces than OWB's. I bet for every one OWB running his rig poorly there are 50 idiots smoking out the hood with their choked down, green wood burning woodstoves.



Sure it does.If I have to pay for Oil to heat my house.I might not pay a tax up front.But the one who sold it to me does.Do you think he is going to flip the bill for me?The one who sells the wood for cash.Do you think he clames all of it on his income tax? I doubt it.


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## Butch(OH) (Feb 18, 2008)

Well I have my letter typed up and ready to send off tomorrow. Arguing pros and cons here is good for raising hackles and sometimes fun but how about writing the state EPA and your state rep and doing some good with your rants also?

Its more about control and revenue than pollution boys. You who think its all about pollution are,,,, well,,,,,,,

it must be nice to live in fairyland.


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## JLROOT (Feb 18, 2008)

This is my first post on this site and may very well be my last (I hope not, I really like this site). Let me start out by saying that I AM OFFENEDED. By the chick in the store with way too much perfume (it makes me sneeze). By the goody goody jerks trying to regulate or abolish smoking because it raises insurance rates(which, by the way, spend their weekends skiing at the lodge, breaking legs, which oh by the way raises MY insurance rates). By the jerks in the hybrid cars saving the planet(Oh by the way; Where does all of that lead/acid goe after 5 years when those batteries are crap and need to be replaced). The point is that when the lady with the perfume makes me sneeze, I can get over it. I can get over the x-games, where broken legs are commenplace. They have their vice and I have mine. I wish people would stop looking for ways to get offended. I read an article about a guy that just could not get a good breath of air because of his neighbors owb. Maybe if he would get off his butt and spend a day or two cutting wood his lungs would be in better shape!!!! Anyways I had better quit while I am ahead.


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## Butch(OH) (Feb 18, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Welcome to ArboristSite JLRoot!
> 
> Sounds like you're a good fit.



Shoot Treeco, I was waiten for you to jump strattle of me, guess Im losen my touch LOL


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## AngelofDarkness (Feb 18, 2008)

I think the smoke problem can be solved with a next generation OWB, one with a variable-speed combustion blower and variable dampers, features found on big commercial boilers. That way the fire can be kept hot enough to not smoke and still respond to changes in load. Personally I don't like OWB's, they seem overcomplicated and inefficient, a lot of heat is lost to the outside. I'd rather have a quality wood stove or furnace. 

I have an older wood stove from the 70's, I run it hot enough that at operating temp there is zero smoke coming out of the stack, only heat. I try to only burn dry stuff, sometimes I mix in half-green stuff when I am low, but only when the fire is hot. I won't burn anything thats really green. I also live in town, and burn every day it's below 40, I have had zero smoke complaints.


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## cmetalbend (Feb 19, 2008)

JLROOT said:


> This is my first post on this site and may very well be my last (I hope not, I really like this site). Let me start out by saying that I AM OFFENEDED. By the chick in the store with way too much perfume (it makes me sneeze). By the goody goody jerks trying to regulate or abolish smoking because it raises insurance rates(which, by the way, spend their weekends skiing at the lodge, breaking legs, which oh by the way raises MY insurance rates). By the jerks in the hybrid cars saving the planet(Oh by the way; Where does all of that lead/acid goe after 5 years when those batteries are crap and need to be replaced). The point is that when the lady with the perfume makes me sneeze, I can get over it. I can get over the x-games, where broken legs are commenplace. They have their vice and I have mine. I wish people would stop looking for ways to get offended. I read an article about a guy that just could not get a good breath of air because of his neighbors owb. Maybe if he would get off his butt and spend a day or two cutting wood his lungs would be in better shape!!!! Anyways I had better quit while I am ahead.


Virgin post, Welcome to the party.


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## Khtsr44 (Feb 19, 2008)

*Wood burning*

It's all about control of your everyday life. Wake up and smell the wood smoke people.
All you down south people have been so over regulated for so long you don't have a life any more.
Ken


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## hanko (Feb 19, 2008)

my guys and me have been working for a guy that by the way sells timberwolf splitters. He also has a wood master OWB. I payed close attention to the smoke, and I didnt really see a problem. I checked out his wood pile that was stored inside and dry and appeared to be seasoned. Is it possible that all the problems are from green wood and tires, garbage ect. If i had somebody next to me burning tires, his OWB wouldnt last very long. Hes heating 3 buildings so it runs hot. I really didnt notice any more smoke than any other wood burner


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## Butch(OH) (Feb 19, 2008)

hanko said:


> my guys and me have been working for a guy that by the way sells timberwolf splitters. He also has a wood master OWB. I payed close attention to the smoke, and I didnt really see a problem. I checked out his wood pile that was stored inside and dry and appeared to be seasoned. Is it possible that all the problems are from green wood and tires, garbage ect. If i had somebody next to me burning tires, his OWB wouldnt last very long. Hes heating 3 buildings so it runs hot. I really didnt notice any more smoke than any other wood burner




You got it Hanko and that is what burns me. A few bad designs, a few people that burn garbage and tires, a few that burn big chunks of wet wood and make smoke clouds so the socialists get out a big wide paint brush and paint the OWB as evil and ban it. I have neighbors 150' away on three sides and have been burning split and dry wood for two seasons. Little smoke other than a 30 seconds after a long off cycle, zero complaints, zero problems. A fellow down the road cuts his firewood at most two weeks ahead of burning and throws it in his inside wood stove. It smokes all day long while my OWB is putting out virtually nothing. You guys who think its no big deal because you burn wood inside in a stove, your day is coming. As a matter of fact it is already here in certain parts of the country.


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## johnha (Feb 19, 2008)

I live in a wooded development. The failure of certain neighbors upwind of me to clean up their leaves causes me a whole lot of extra work each fall/winter. Its a price I pay to live where I do. I understand that I likely have different standards as to what constitutes 'cleaned up' than they do. Or maybe they're just lazy. Its none of my business. All that said, my neighbors are entitled not to be choked by my 2 wood burners.

If every owner of OWB's operated their units properly this would not have become an issue. 

People don't notice the 99 OWB's that are properly operated, only the 1 that is smoking up the whole neighborhood. We have all seen that 1 guy, so we shouldn't try to deny he exists. 

Trying to blame folks who have a legitimate complaint against that 1 guy doesn't accomplish a thing.


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## mga (Feb 19, 2008)

Lignum said:


> The restrictions are not all that unfeasible. The voters banned smoking in any workplace because of health issues, so I can see them picking on the OWB. From what I seen, the owners burn any trash wood, green, rotten, all of it and it does smoke up the area. Perhaps all they need is a 20-25 foot tall stack and that would solve the problem.



true.

wasn't there a guy here in the forum who says he burns waste oil in his? he may be out in the country and away from people, but still, the option is there. i've also read from some here who say they do burn green wood all the time, along with lumber and skids.

many states are addressing this issue already, even here where i live they are writing laws to regulate them. 

an old saying that management used to tell the union: "to abuse it is to lose it".


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## hanko (Feb 19, 2008)

I made a joke a few days agp about the moderators being the wood police. I really think there should be Wood Cops. If you get caught burning #### in your wood stove, big fine. Im actually getting rid of my wood furnace and going to a EPA radiant stove for many reasons, but one reason I feel good about is the less crap im spuing into the air. Now dont get me wrong, im no greenie liberal by no means, but ive herd my neighbors ##### about my stinkey furnace when theu dont think im listining. More and more people are going to wood for heat, so its up to us to make sure we will all be able to without the township guy showing up. burn hot and use dry wood


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## hanko (Feb 19, 2008)

######################## bad words I guess, now im in trouble


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 19, 2008)

mga said:


> true.
> 
> wasn't there a guy here in the forum who says he burns waste oil in his? he may be out in the country and away from people, but still, the option is there. i've also read from some here who say they do burn green wood all the time, along with lumber and skids.
> 
> ...



Waste oil can be burned in any stove, not just an OWB. Also people who have a lot of equipment have been burning waste oil since before I was born. While this does not give them the right to smoke out the neighborhood, breaking old habits can be next to impossible


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## mga (Feb 19, 2008)

HUSKYMAN said:


> Waste oil can be burned in any stove, not just an OWB. Also people who have a lot of equipment have been burning waste oil since before I was born. While this does not give them the right to smoke out the neighborhood, breaking old habits can be next to impossible



i understand that.

however, in today's "al gore environment", there seems to be a green light on complaining about any little offensive smoke that bothers someone, or that someone feels is poluting the environment. for that reason, it's best to remain quiet about burning waste oils.


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## hydro2 (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't even live in Ohio, but find the notion that government feels the need to regulate whether or not one chooses to heat his/her home with wood/coal a bit disturbing, to say the least. What has this nation become? In the 40's and 50's every house on every block heated with wood and coal. The number of homes heating with wood and coal has steadily declined over the past 50 or 60 years and yet the cancer and asthma rate continues to climb. Explain that!!!!!!! In a time when oil, natural gas and propane prices have reached staggering rates and the economy being as dismal as it is, you would think that the leaders of this once great country would encourage people to be self sufficient using any means at their disposal to survive and cut heating costs. Many people will be unable to pay the astronomically high heating bills they encounter this winter. Perhaps it is big oil and government in bed together?
Many citizens of this county have become nothing more than whiners, crybabies and “Benedict Arnolds”, turning in their neighbor every time there is a faint glimpse of smoke rising from the chimney of their neighbor. Our citizens should be ashamed of themselves and our politicians with their air quality control committees should be doubly ashamed of themselves. These are people who are paid with taxpayer funding. These agencies are wasting taxpayer’s money like there is no end in sight. 
The cliché that only the strong survive is no longer true. If this was the case, we would not even be debating this matter. Just because there are people who are to lazy or weak to take control of their own primal needs, (heat in this example) they expect the rest of nation (out of jealousy I expect) to be dependant on big industry (oil and gas) and government to coddle them and care for their every need. Being that they are too lazy to gather wood and are unwilling to put forth an effort, they don’t want people who are, to reap the fruits of their labors. They feel that all people should just turn up the thermostat and pay the oil and gas companies, because the fine particulates will get us all if we don't. Never mind the preservatives in our food, pesticides on our fruit and steroids in our meat, they could not possibly cause cancer. The real enemy at hand is the fine particulates. After all, big oil needs the money more than the working class American citizen. So turn up the thermostat, enjoy the heat and lastly just shut up and pay, thus saving us all from cancer. After all, you did not really need food on your table for your family. 
Those who actually work pay at least 40 percent of their earnings in taxes, and this is what they get for their money. For the 40 percent they are forced to contribute, they get air quality agencies and committees (with inflated salaries) such as this funded by tax dollars. Shameful to say the least! Just my two cents!


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## Justsaws (Feb 20, 2008)

I will support any bill that reduces the amount of ground level smoke.

I will support any bill that reduces the amount of treated wood, plastic, tires, and poison ivy burned. Jail time and seizure of property sounds like a fitting punishment for these offenses since we are not allowed to shoot the stupid.

If people that own OWBs do not want to be regulated then I recommend policing yourselves, as that has not happened I will support any governmental agencies that will. These OWBs have become a nuisance and health hazard to people who are forced to live next to these inefficient pollution machines.

If you live out in the boonies congratulations, if you can see your neighbors house be careful and control your smoke. Also, do not sell your land to developers and then complain about your new neighbors.

Good luck, but if you are against this bill then I hope you develop severe asthma, chronic bronchitis and/or allergies to wood smoke so that you can also develop some sense of compassion for those less fortunate than you.


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## cmetalbend (Feb 20, 2008)

Justsaws said:


> I will support any bill that reduces the amount of ground level smoke.
> 
> I will support any bill that reduces the amount of treated wood, plastic, tires, and poison ivy burned. Jail time and seizure of property sounds like a fitting punishment for these offenses since we are not allowed to shoot the stupid.
> 
> ...


Here's where A God Father clause is needed. If the unit was there before you moved in then KEEP MOVIN. Most of us have been less fortunate at some point in our lives, or still are. Wishing "ill will" is stupid, imature and inhumane":angry2:


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## MS-310 (Feb 20, 2008)

:censored: You know this topic has been talked about for a long time. Listen, don't burn junk in your boiler don't burn junk in your in door wood stove....duh. But don't try to say every one is going to get a unwanted lung problem cuz of a OWB it can be anything that burns fuel......Lets think, any one here go to the BAR? Most Bars have smoke in it, that smoke is 100x the amount of carcinogens then in wood smoke......Im not sure of the real numbers but I have about 30 pages of OWB facts about smoke some from CB and some from heatsource 1.....

Hay it will be OK when Hillarys in office......she will take care of it....LOL


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## blizzard (Feb 20, 2008)

Hopefully mccain gets the job. NOTTT!!!!


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## johnha (Feb 20, 2008)

blizzard said:


> Hopefully mccain gets the job. NOTTT!!!!



Hey blizzard, there's a sub forum for political views on this board. Perhaps you thought you were posting there?


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## blizzard (Feb 20, 2008)

perhaps


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## blizzard (Feb 20, 2008)

I mean ooopppsss :0


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## Marc (Feb 20, 2008)

While I have mixed feelings about this reg... I can certainly see both sides of it. I realize that there are problem burners out there and the health concerns can be very real.. but at the same time, punishing all for the misgivings of a few is generally not the right way to handle things, especially when this will, as I see it, discourage people from using wood fuel for heat, which probably means more oil consumption. And maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought we all mostly agreed _less_ oil consumption was a good thing...

Well anyway, I'm enjoying the trend toward gasifiers, and I hope more boiler manufacturers make more outside models soon. Wood Doctor had the Converter, but apparently has some issues. The more HS Tarms, Orlan Ekos, Econoburns and Garns, etc. being used, the lower the prices for them will go and the better off we'll all be, IMHO.

I'll probably be installing a Tarm or Eko within the next year, myself, just because as much as I like cutting wood, I'd rather only have to cut 6 cord per year than 10 or 12.


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## broachman (Feb 20, 2008)

*More reg.s because a nieghbor smells something!*

I realize this thread is about new regulations on wood burners, but there are a lot of oil burners that smoke and stink on those low pressure days. 
How many of you live around that?
Will we force all those people to buy new heating sources too?

Gov't is totally out of control.
Freedom?
The baseline now seem to be "if one person doesn't like it, we need a law!"
Kind of like the "If we can only save one life" our Socialist politicians use for justification for any new law.

We are witnessing the Death of Freedom.
To poorly paraphrase "the true test of freedom is the right of another person to say what you truly can't stand to hear.

Goodbye America!


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## hanko (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmmmm!!!!!! what he say


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## Lignum (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't think we need another agency or what have you. Like I posted earlier, making the people who install the OWB place a 25' stack in it, and it could and would likely fix all problems.


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## HUSKYMAN (Feb 20, 2008)

Lignum said:


> I don't think we need another agency or what have you. Like I posted earlier, making the people who install the OWB place a 25' stack in it, and it could and would likely fix all problems.



That along with burning the proper stuff. I dont think 25' should be a firm figure. I dont know how I would support a 25' stack on my stand alone stove, guy wires? 

But three feet above the nearest occupied building ought to do it


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## Lignum (Feb 21, 2008)

HUSKYMAN said:


> That along with burning the proper stuff. I dont think 25' should be a firm figure. I dont know how I would support a 25' stack on my stand alone stove, guy wires?
> 
> But three feet above the nearest occupied building out to do it




Agreed, 25" was just a round number off the top of my head.


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## R W Ohio (Feb 23, 2008)

April 15th. is far from the end of the heating season here in NE Ohio.


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## cmetalbend (Feb 23, 2008)

R W Ohio said:


> April 15th. is far from the end of the heating season here in NE Ohio.



Which bring's out another point. How long are these used during a typical season. Here in Kansas I'd say 5-6 months actual use.


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## jerseywild (Feb 23, 2008)

Lignum said:


> I don't think we need another agency or what have you. Like I posted earlier, making the people who install the OWB place a 25' stack in it, and it could and would likely fix all problems.



A 25' stack on a OWB is not an easy task.


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## Lignum (Feb 23, 2008)

'20 feet, or what have you to get the smoke above the roof lines of existing structures, that way the smoke doesn't hang out head level. That is what people are complaining about, not the fact that that they are is use, just that the fact there is billowing smoke that just hangs.


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## badtry (Feb 23, 2008)

too many people have the its all about me syndrome. I have a neighbor that burns three acres of leaves, every fall, in the ditch with no respect for where the smoke goes (wet or dry) or who it affects. Take a good look around, if you cant effectively install an owb without smoking a neighbor out, or dont have the ability to season your wood to burn cleaner, dont do it!


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## iCreek (Feb 23, 2008)

*Neighbor not to close ...*



badtry said:


> Take a good look around, if you cant effectively install an owb without smoking a neighbor out, or dont have the ability to season your wood to burn cleaner, dont do it!



I guess I am OK, my nearest neighbor is within view, and my brother in law... Heck, he don't mind much he heats with an OWB also !!

Just simple folk here in Missouri, trying to get by and save some money !!

ps. the horses seem to like the smoke


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## R W Ohio (Feb 23, 2008)

Last year we started the OWB in the 2nd. week of September and put the last wood in it the 2nd. week of May.


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## badtry (Feb 23, 2008)

nice spread icreek! looks like you can do what ever you want.


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## blizzard (Feb 23, 2008)

I live up in NE ohio and we don't fire up till late october and firing is spotty in april. in may really not much need to unless get a big cold spell. sun is very strong by then in ohio


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## Lignum (Feb 23, 2008)

badtry said:


> too many people have the its all about me syndrome. I have a neighbor that burns three acres of leaves, every fall, in the ditch with no respect for where the smoke goes (wet or dry) or who it affects. Take a good look around, if you cant effectively install an owb without smoking a neighbor out, or dont have the ability to season your wood to burn cleaner, dont do it!




Common courtesy is fleeting, and sometimes even rarer where people are living in more populated communities.


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## cmetalbend (Feb 24, 2008)

blizzard said:


> I live up in NE ohio and we don't fire up till late october and firing is spotty in april. in may really not much need to unless get a big cold spell. sun is very strong by then in ohio


This is ironic considering Ohio came up as a For-runner in the government fight againt OWB's.opcorn:


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## Tesen (Feb 24, 2008)

habanero said:


> I'm not a fan of government regulation of anything, but I have to say I can in *some instances* see the need for something to be done with OWB's. I drive by one every night on my way home from work and there are times (probably at least 1 night a week) it nearly creates a traffic hazard because the smoke blowing across the road is so thick. If I lived next to that guy I'd certainly not be a happy camper. All this being said I drive by others that you almost never see any smoke at all coming from, so I'd never say they are all bad. But it's like everything else, the bad ones ruin it for everybody.



Sounds like 21 Southbound; I drive from Massillon to Cleveland everyday, coming home down 21S I drive past an OWB, I have to smile that they are heating with it, but the problem is the smoke coming across the road sometimes totally blinds traffic. Unfortunately, this is more than likely the owner burning green wood; the problem is, the general public only see lots of smoke from it and they assume all OWB's are like that.

Ignornace combined with owners/operators that don't care what they burn is going to hurt everyone.

Tes


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## porta mill (Feb 24, 2008)

*owb regs*

I live in PA and there are problems with local governments banning owb's but most or the problem units are located in neighborhoods where there is not sufficient space between the houses and people burning trash in the owb's . i have been reading this thread since it's beginning and there is a few standards trying to be placed on owb's . like a 20' 25' smoke stack . How is the general home owner going to clean out that tall of a stack . with the price of under ground pex it will break the bank to place the unit 250' away from the nearest house, I think there should be regulations put on these units but the government is getting a little crazy . like in my case I live on six acres in which i have a house and my dad has a house and no neighbors in sight there should be no regs imposed on my owb that is just my opinion . i do not burn garbage or tires yes some rotten wood but it is better than burning oil or gas . I believe that a few few rotten apples are running the whole bunch .


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## oneoldbanjo (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't burn tires, garbage or wet wood - but yesterday I was surprised how much smoke I made. I was cleaning up the garage area and had a bunch of OSB and regular plywood scraps left over from the construction - and now that I am sure I can't use any of the leftover scraps I decided to burn them. The furnace was down to a nice coal bed and I kept raking the coals until just ash remained with enough coals to get the next load of wood burning. I then threw in a few dry branches and a pretty good stack of plywood that was cut up and layered to give plenty of airspace around the wood. The weather was about 36 degrees and very damp as there is about 4" of snow melting on the ground - with no wind and an occasional light snow. 

When the plywood started to burn the furnace put out a huge column of smoke that went straight up to about 80 feet before it started to spread out and dissipate. The color of the smoke was very dark - I guess a result of all the wood surface igniting without enough air supply to make it burn cleanly. Luckily there was no wind and the closest neighbors are 400-500 feet away. I really didn't think that burning a stack of very dry plywood that had been stored indoors would be a problem.

For the remainder of the plywood stack I will just be adding a few pieces at a time to the regular wood. Even with the best intentions us new guys can make mistakes in choosing what wood to burn.


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## Tesen (Feb 25, 2008)

Isn't plywood chemically treated? That maybe what caused the smoke. But hey we all make mistakes, you learned from it you are not the problem. The problem is the owb operators that don't care what comes out of their stack.

I've also noticed that a lot of OWB's have short stacks on them, why? I'd think getting the stack up higher would allow higher airflow currents to catch the smoke and pull them away from your house and neighbors.

Tes


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## oneoldbanjo (Feb 25, 2008)

I didn't burn any pressure treated plywood (the green tinted stuff that is OK for wet areas) - only plywood and OSB. I am sure there is a bit of glue in them - but on the few times that I burned plywood in waste piles I never noticed a smoke problem. It sure did make my OWB smoke though!


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## django (Mar 3, 2008)

THIS is what my EPA is worrying about? Nice. Wher I live there are several "mega farms" within 20 miles of each other. There is a constant dumping of pig and bovine manure on the same ground over and over. There is fecal matter in the ditches, that runs into the rivers. That seems to be O.K. Just don't burn your outdoor stove. Please. My stove is 75 feet from my 40 foot tall house. A 55 foot stack? What if I build a building over my stove? Is it O.K. then? This is typical restrictive legislation. You think you'll be able to build your own anymore? Only if you spend hundreds of dollars to make it meet standards and to have it "certified". Ask for the max and "settle" on a compromise. This is only the beginning.Trust me. If you think your state won't follow suit, you are dead wrong. It just takes a precedent. Outdoor stove owners are right to ask.... " What about that guy over there that burns indoors? He makes smoke too!" " "His chimney is lower than the roof of my house." etc... That will lead to.... "You know, your right! we'll put stiffer regs on them as well!" Nasty Nasty wood smoke. This is guaranteed. This type of legislation is seriously bad news. Unfortunately, it is i'm afraid, inevitable.
There are a lot of morons who put these things in residential areas. I know of several. What did they think? all of that smoke wouldn't bother anyone? That nobody would complain? Heck, I'd complain. I can see the local news crew now, camera pointed at a OWB belching smoke all over a neighborhood or grouping of houses on a nice low barometric pressure day. Smoke just hugging the ground. Maybe some kids playing in the smoke. Whos' gonna say that that person has the right to smoke up the house(s) and grounds next to them? If you think we're getting any sympathy from the non-burning public, think again. The number of people who own these really is'nt that large, but with $4 gasoline and $3 propane on the way, it could grow significantly. Better nip it in the bud now, is what they're thinking. My nearest neighbor is 1/8 mile away, if they were within a few hundred feet, I wouldn't use an OWB. Just not neighborly. 
So here we are. Or were.


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## Lignum (Mar 3, 2008)

django said:


> THIS is what my EPA is worrying about? Nice. Where I live there are several "mega farms" within 20 miles of each other. There is a constant dumping of pig and bovine manure on the same ground over and over. There is fecal matter in the ditches, that runs into the rivers. That seems to be O.K. Just don't burn your outdoor stove. Please.



That is being addressed as we speak.

Poultry runoff.


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## Husky137 (Mar 3, 2008)

oneoldbanjo said:


> I am sure there is a bit of glue in them /QUOTE]
> 
> Only a bit of glue in plywood? Are you for real? There is probably as much glue in plywood and OSB as there is wood fiber. Ever wonder why the stuff is so friggin' heavy? :jawdrop:


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## django (Mar 3, 2008)

Incidently, 200 feet from a property line is essentially right in the middle of 4 acres. How many of these are on a smaller plot than that?
Most of them.


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## TheInstaller (Mar 4, 2008)

*outdoor wood furnace smoke*

In the cases of people that complain about smoke. Im more concerned about all the smoke that the gov. allows people to suck through a cancer stick and then blow the toxins into the air. Most people dont realize that wood rotting on the forest floor puts out the same amount of pollution or darn close to that as the act of burning it the only thing that is different we are speeding it up but instead of leaving the forest cluttered with rubbish to promote forest fires we are using the wood. The forest and us benefit. The gov. doesnt like it because they own stock and companies involved with the oil business.


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## TheInstaller (Mar 4, 2008)

*smoke concern and regs*

There are regulations popping up everywheres even in WI. Part of the problem with the smoke problem is because people burn garbage like plastic, rubber, grain bags, and etc. Another part of the problem is that most of the natural draft furnaces dont burn hot enough to burn up the gases. The only way you can burn the fire hot enough is with forced air and or a mile of insulated pipe on the chimney. I install an outdoor stove system a day(a simple house hookup). Out of all the stoves out there the natural draft stoves dont burn hot enough, smoke to much, and dont recover from a big heat draw.


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## irishcountry (Mar 4, 2008)

I find it funny that even the EPA will allow large corporate companies like Arrco (I think thats the right spelling) to contaminate the ground around their setups with lead and then also allow them to claim bankrupcy so they aren't financially responsible for the cleanup then let them move the operation to the next state and do it all over!! Thats just one company times that by how many are doing some of the same things. This was recently a story on the news and they interviewed the head honcho at the EPA and she said "Oh no they are not doing this on purpose to get out of cleanup they really can't afford it" Now Joe Schmoe puts in a outdoor woodboiler and quits handing over his/her cash to big oil and its under fire imagine that! Not doubt that there should be ongoin R&D to make them as effiecient as possible and putting one right on town square probrobly shouldn't fly but to outright ban them for the argument of pollution is absolutely fishy!! Period! I (like a dummy) called our local township and was told I cannot have one if I wasn't zoned AG and they are banned already for new installs!! Guess what I just seen in our local paper? The board meeting just recogonized that they should probrobly write some ordinances dealing with these "New" outdoor devices governing the placement and operation of them. Wow I called last fall so someone completely lied to me I supposed they felt it was their job to impose their own opinion of the wood boilers onto my situation. Now I have really lost faith in our system it seems that corruption, greed, power, and control is running rampant allover and all us Joe Schmoes get to foot the bill. I'm sure Michigan will follow suite soon even though I recently stumbled onto a site ran I believe by Michigan State University promoting wood burning?? HUH Well thats all I had to throw in I say run em' if you got em till they want to pay your heat bill for free but that didn't work out to well in Russia!


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## berry5 (Mar 6, 2008)

down here they are building this mega powerplant clean coal and they are going to use 25 percent wood to off set the price of coal they had a big article in the paper about how good wood is to use


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## irishcountry (Mar 6, 2008)

PERFECT EXAMPLE!! Thats exactly what i'm talking about its ok for the state, a large corporation (that pays lots of taxes) or any part of the government to do what they need to to make it "better" or work out to their benefit but god forbid anyone that can and is willing to be more self sufficient run a outdoor wood boiler better to let the logs rot on the ground or stand dead!! Like I said it seems very fishy to me I have seen a OWB down the road and I have purposely watched it at different times of the day and never do I see the entire valley behind his home clouded with smoke NEVER i'm am sure it varies with the manufacturer and model but if I was his neighbor it wouldn't bother me at all!! Last time I went by any large factory anywhere or worse refining plants ect. there are tons of smoke you can't tell me that a whole neighborhood of OWB could possibly put out a matching equivilent of CO2 and smoke. Thank you


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 6, 2008)

irishcountry said:


> PERFECT EXAMPLE!! Thats exactly what i'm talking about its ok for the state, a large corporation (that pays lots of taxes) or any part of the government to do what they need to to make it "better" or work out to their benefit but god forbid anyone that can and is willing to be more self sufficient run a outdoor wood boiler better to let the logs rot on the ground or stand dead!! Like I said it seems very fishy to me I have seen a OWB down the road and I have purposely watched it at different times of the day and never do I see the entire valley behind his home clouded with smoke NEVER i'm am sure it varies with the manufacturer and model but if I was his neighbor it wouldn't bother me at all!! Last time I went by any large factory anywhere or worse refining plants ect. there are tons of smoke you can't tell me that a whole neighborhood of OWB could possibly put out a matching equivilent of CO2 and smoke. Thank you



The sooner you quit trying to make common sense out of the environmental wacko crowd and/or the EPA says the sooner you will realize that it isn't about clean air and water. It is about control, tax money and job security for life long loafs on public payrolls. The real "job" of the EPA was completed 15 years ago when they got most of the heavy industry run out of the states and passed the clean water act. Now they pick on evil things like OWBs because they get bored playing cards on their computers and the grandstanding helps them get a few more bucks from the state budget.

The Ohio EPA's so-called facts are simply photo copied lore from their socialistic comrades out east. They didn't even bother to get new photos. Their "facts" are provable to be not factual. They wont release actual complaint numbers, only say "many" and on and on. Back them in a corner and all the can do is say how can it hurt to save some smoke? My guess is the legislation will pas in some form short of what is proposed at this time, how short? depends on how much fuss is raised, none of the chicken :censored:its want their face on the front page of the papers, that is on our side.


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## irishcountry (Mar 7, 2008)

You called it!! Its a shame that control and greed seem to factor into every facet of our goverment but your right about all you said when I was younger I guess I never looked at how things work even on a local level maybe I was better off then cuz if sure can make you red. The worst part is all of the thing they do to "us" is with our own money what a rackett!! A guys in my home town called the same township and said he heard OWB were already banned he said I want to put one in soon and was told no there are absolutely no bans on any woodburners all the officials did was attend a meeting at the capitol on OWB and their smoke "problems" why did he get the answer he did because he has raised and big ruckus over other issues and has no problem telling them what he thinks about how they are doing their jobs!! He simply stated they are there to work for us not against us he's right but boy is that so not how it seems to be!! I hope somehow all this stuff gets shot down it really seems like the "free" fades more by the year and we are left with just the "dumb" maybe its always been this way and i'm just now opening my eyes now that i'm older and thinking about what my kids will live like 10 or 20 years from now!! Keeping my fingers crossed for Ohio!!


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## Zodiac45 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well Butch, You can rant and rave all you want about the legislators but it's sort of like don't kill the messenger. You're always going to have someone coming along and micro managing everything. It's a sad commentary on how tax dollars are spent. That said, and I've said this before, it's the 5% or less of the bad apples that ruin things for everyone else. 
I'm inclined to agree with the Installer. Those people burning garbage, junk and unseasoned wood are a huge source of the problem. That and the poor design of some of the units are what's gonna screw the pootch if it doesn't get stopped. 
I don't know what the answer is but for everyones sake (who operates OWB's) maybe there needs to be a standard established and then an inspection process. A pass or fail and if someone fails, they get a timetable to fix it and reinspect. Sort of like our vehicles and the sticker process?


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## Butch(OH) (Mar 7, 2008)

The EPA is not the messenger, they are writing the message  Why, if this problem is a people problem, are they attempting to regulate the inanimate object? If an OWB pollutes the air in town does it not pollute the air in the middle of 400 acres just the same amount???? or is the EPA now also allowing themselves to be another layer of zoning and land use control. How did they get into that business??? 

As I said, it isn't about pollution and it isn't about stopping at OWBs it is about control,,,

lets not confuse the issues.


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## irishcountry (Mar 9, 2008)

*Correction*

Just to correct myself it was Asarco a company in El Paso Texas it was a copper smelter corp. they stopped for awhile but recently got permission to start up again.


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## hanko (Mar 10, 2008)

there is a fellow in another post that says he burns all year long, now isnt that part of why OWB's are getting a bad rap


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## hanko (Mar 10, 2008)

I also wanted to mention, and I just found this out a few days ago. I have a buddy in Hillman Mich who is of all things a bone cracker, and he also runs a health food store. He had a OWB set up in town to heat the health food store and his office. Caused quite a rukus. The town council passed an law and he had to move it. Now i would think to put one of those right in the middle of town is asking for trouble. I still think its a few bad ones that ruin it for others


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## oneoldbanjo (Mar 10, 2008)

This is my first year with my OWB and I have to admit - it is dirtier than I though it would be. The manufacturers/dealers say that they only smoke a bit at start up - but that is a bit optomistic. I use dry seasoned wood and it smokes pretty heavy for about 10 minutes when new wood is added - but the blower barely runs much longer than that and the furnace is up to the 170 degree shut off for the blower. The furnace then goes into a smolder mode that can last several hours if the weather is warm. If the temperature is above freezing, still air and damp - the furnace can be pretty foul smelling. I don't believe you could make a stack tall enough to get rid of the smell in those conditions as the smoke drops to ground level quickly. The follwing burns get progressively cleaner and the coals burn real clean.

I love my OWB - but I am certainly glad that I don't have a neighbor within a few hundred feet of me that owns one. Luckily I live in a rural area and don't have any neighbors for 300 or so feet, and probably more like 1,000 feet in the predominant wind direction. When the air is dry and calm the smoke goes straight up - and when the wind is blowing the smoke dissipates long before it reaches any neighbors. I have two othe neighbors with OWB's and they also are far away from any other neighbors.

These furnaces don't burn clean - and the websites that I have found that list testing figures on OWB's show that the smoke from a single OWB causes as much pollution as 300 oil furnaces or up to 8,000 of the new efficient gas furnaces.

I certainly believe that OWB's with the current technology do not belong in populated areas - if you have neighbors closer than a few hundred feet - you are going to make their house smell like smoke occasionally. If they live on the downwind side - you may be sending the smoke toward them almost non stop. I am not pro-government/EPA and don't support a ban on them - but I do believe that a property owner needs protection against having an OWB installed too close to their property and don't have a problem with regulations that will provide protection for adjoining property owners/homeowners. If your OWB makes the neighbors house smell like smoke - it is too close and shouldn't be permitted.


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## ziggy2b (Mar 11, 2008)

*2 cents*

I think the epa should see about getting the funds back to the state for all of the vehicle emmission stations they setup in this state?OOOOOOOOps then turn around and close them at taxpayers expense??? Know wonder this state is crying poor all the time!!!!!


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## oneoldbanjo (Mar 11, 2008)

EPA inspections in the State of Cuba?


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## Zodiac45 (Mar 11, 2008)

oneoldbanjo said:


> This is my first year with my OWB and I have to admit - it is dirtier than I though it would be. The manufacturers/dealers say that they only smoke a bit at start up - but that is a bit optomistic. I use dry seasoned wood and it smokes pretty heavy for about 10 minutes when new wood is added - but the blower barely runs much longer than that and the furnace is up to the 170 degree shut off for the blower. The furnace then goes into a smolder mode that can last several hours if the weather is warm. If the temperature is above freezing, still air and damp - the furnace can be pretty foul smelling. I don't believe you could make a stack tall enough to get rid of the smell in those conditions as the smoke drops to ground level quickly. The follwing burns get progressively cleaner and the coals burn real clean.
> 
> I love my OWB - but I am certainly glad that I don't have a neighbor within a few hundred feet of me that owns one. Luckily I live in a rural area and don't have any neighbors for 300 or so feet, and probably more like 1,000 feet in the predominant wind direction. When the air is dry and calm the smoke goes straight up - and when the wind is blowing the smoke dissipates long before it reaches any neighbors. I have two othe neighbors with OWB's and they also are far away from any other neighbors.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the honest post. I know that you have invested considerable money in your OWB, but it's seems that you are being very objective when you wrote this description of how it burns, and you are a dry wood burner too boot!. It's begining to look like they have, in trying too make the appliance more efficient, created the monster. It is this smolder mode that causes the low temp fires and heavy smoke. All of us who use woodstoves understand that in the begining of a start up, and so some degree when adding wood, your going to get a bit of smoke. But I for one do not go for the cold fire smoldering technique. I've had two chimney fires that scared the bejeesus out of me and that was enough. I understand that this inn't an issue for OWB's but I prefer to burn hot, use a bit more wood maybe, burn cleaner. I wasn't aware that you can't regulate this ability on your OWB?


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## crowbuster (Mar 11, 2008)

hanko, a friend of mine with a hardy and in a small town does just that, burn all year, bad enough when cold as it is the smokiest around, but when people are outside thats whats killing us, that and blocking the highway with smoke.


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## hanko (Mar 11, 2008)

crowbuster said:


> hanko, a friend of mine with a hardy and in a small town does just that, burn all year, bad enough when cold as it is the smokiest around, but when people are outside thats whats killing us, that and blocking the highway with smoke.


yep, one of the reasons among others that i got rid of my wood burning furnace is the plums of smoke. I had new neighbors build a new house right nest door. I heard some comments when they didnt think I was listning about the smell. Now I firmly believe that I was here first and you dont move next to the dumo and ##### about the smell, and all that. but I was worried that at some point and time I would have problems with the township and wanted to avoid that. It was a smokey dude. There are 4 of us in the area that burn wood, and every day more come on board. I know in my heart that sooner or later we are all going to have restrictions on wood burning. I for one have seen and know people that have OWB, and they are filthy discusting messes. I know they can build cleaner boilers and people can do things to minamize the smoke and clean up around the unit itself. Im not one to tell somebody how they should maintain their property or how they have to heat their house, but if they dont clean up their act it will effect all of us.


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## hanko (Mar 11, 2008)

I will post a photo later on showing an OWB and the surounding area


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## Tazman1602 (Mar 11, 2008)

Kneejerk Bombas said:


> What is the problem?
> You have 7 years to stop blowing smoke on your neighbor. They want a low polluting stove, a decent setback from property lines, and safe smoke stack.
> Seems reasonable to me.



HMMM. I got news.............it is NOT reasonable. NO reason any government should dictate to us what we can burn to heat our homes with. 

*Do you *Really* believe the big oil and gas companies have nothing to do with this kind of stuff?* I live in Northern Michigan and if not for wood heat I"d have to walk away from my home of over 20 years and, personally, I"m not about to do that without a fight.

Propane over $3/gallon up here which means it would cost me around $5K to heat my home if that's all I had to rely on. With wood it's under $1K........

Maybe we should outlaw cars that don't get at least 50mpg. Then we'd all have to take out new mortgages to pay the $50K the dang cars would cost.

Nothing personal meant here, but where I live people are darn sick and tired of being told what they can and can't do in their personal lives on their own property.

Just my $.001 worth.............:chainsawguy:


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## irishcountry (Mar 11, 2008)

Amen Tazman!! I agree with some of the others and I understand having some very common sense things you should not be able to do and like I mentioned no reason the OWB companies shouldn't make more and more efficient units but it seems to be OK for the government, large corporations, ect. to do almost whatever they want and the little guys get the screw put down on them!! I know that a couple of people can ruin it for everyone but why is it not like that in big business one can polute like crazy but it doesn't ruin anything for the other big businesses!! Like I said if the special on Asarrco re-airs on CNN do yourself a favor and watch it, it will put all the rest of what us little guys are doing in prospective. No doubt once very restricitve regulations are put on OWB's regular woodburners catalytic or not will not be far behind then what is the option PETROLEUM or electric that is still largely generated from PETROLEUM. It is sickening what freedoms we do lose by the year maybe its always been this way and is just a matter of perception but it is going to get worse and worse till this stuff effects every single person that is about the only way people will stand together and fight back!! Like Tazman said what if they did ban all cars that didn't get 50mpg I would guess people then might pay attention!!


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## Tesen (Mar 11, 2008)

The crux of the problem is not telling you what you can and cannot do; it is about protecting other people's rights to have clean air around them (within reason). If your OWB is smoking out the neighbor’s house, then your OWB has become a public nuisance. Yes I know this is a slippery slope to be walking. I burn with wood and I refuse to give up my wood burner, least the government pay for my house to stay at 72F – 74F all winter long but at the same time, I refuse to be disrespectful to my neighbor’s and smoke them out of their house. I have access to free coal, just requires me to take a pickup down and get it loaded. But the stuff is so nasty, that it smokes badly and will leave a smoke haze across the neighborhood. Using this coal costs me less money and time, then harvesting my own firewood, so I save $$$, but I refuse to use it. Why? 1) It is disrespectful, my neighbors maybe can smell my wood burning, but the smoke is so very little, my exhaust fan disperses it quickly and high in to the air. The coal smoke just hangs… 2) There is enough negative press about smoking furnaces and OWB’s without (forgive me) adding fuel to the fire. 3) It is nice to be able to walk outside, take a deep breath in without coal smoke filling my lungs.

What needs to happen, is the EPA needs to work with manufacturers to improve the combustion process inside the OWB’s to produce cleaner exhaust. When there are a few OWB’s on the market, the EPA/state needs to offer incentive (i.e. money) for existing OWB owners to upgrade to the newer units. Maybe with free trade in for the new OWB; I think it only fair, if the general public wants the OWB’s regulated, they fork the money over through taxes to help existing owners replace their older units.


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## Farmerjon (Mar 11, 2008)

My house sits in the middle of our 40 acres. Trees on three sides of us. I am one of the guys that burns his OWB all year as it heats our hot water also. I burn slab wood pine for summer wood. Usually it will burn once a day and I don't stoke it full like winter time. We cook and work in our yard daily. Most of the stacks (mine included) are shorter than what we are used to and it puts the smoke closer to the ground. Some guy wires and a 10' stack would greatly eliminate any and all problems.


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## django (Mar 11, 2008)

I agree with the slippery slope comment and many other observations so far, but I still cant see the point in regulating stoves that are hundreds of feet from anybody. I have a real problem with the Ohio EPA telling me I can't have the stove smoking up my own house. Notice that the regs don't say that the stove has to be 200' from your neighbor, they say from A PROPERTY LINE. 
My property borders nothingbut empty fields. I have a granary (building) within 150' that is over 50' tall. Notice the regs don't say INHABITED building they only state a building. The Vermont regs are much more sensible than this. Also, the federal EPA regs on outdoor stoves upper limit the PP/MBTU 
to .6lb/hr. The Ohio regs start at .44lb and drop to .32 or 1/2 what the fed allows. Why? I have said this before, but this has to be understood completely to grasp what they are trying to do:
200 feet from a property line requires a minimum lot size of FOUR ACRES.
This "setbak" requirement will eliminate a very large percentage of current owners from using thier stove at all. 
This topic could go on forever, but the thing is, if you bought and installed your stove legally, broke no zoning laws or then current EPA regs you have the right to operate your stove, or be justly compensated for the loss of using it. Grandfathering in existing installations should be mandatory.
I also find it interesting that the language for these regs uses the term "open burning", Actually ,open burning is illegal in the entire state of Ohio. So now if they consider a OWB to be "open burning" that will be somewhat hard to prove, but I think they could do it.


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## Tazman1602 (Mar 11, 2008)

Tesen said:


> What needs to happen, is the EPA needs to work with manufacturers to improve the combustion process inside the OWB’s to produce cleaner exhaust.



Dude, no disrespect intended, but do you wonder why a pickup now costs around $35K? I can tell you in three letters..............EPA

Granted we have to be good stewards of this planet, but we also have to survive. Being allowed to do that as we see fit is a God given right.

The first new truck I ever bought I was 18 years old. It was a 1975 Ford F-150 4WD with all the goodies. $4500 out the door. You absolutely, positively NEED a 4WD where I live to get around in winter.

..........then came catalytic converters - which by the way caused way more pollution than they stopped because the dang things caused forest fires from burning too hot. No too many people even remember that one. Then came fuel injection. Great for gas mileage but impossible for Joe average to work on without the $5000 meter for interfacing into the computer system. .......and on and on and on until cars are so damn expensive Joe Average CAN'T afford them. OWB's will be the same way in ten years once the EPA gets involved.


Wife just bought a new 2007 Sierra 4WD and it was more than we paid for our first house................and we still chiseled around $10K off the price from the stealer (dealer).

The only thing the EPA has ever accomplished is to make most of our lives expensive and complicated. 

JMHO


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## irishcountry (Mar 11, 2008)

I agree with being respectful of your neighbors thats why I mentioned using "common sense" I don't know too many people that would see their smoke sticking in their neighbors yard and not do something to rectify it but no doubt there are a few that said there has to be a point where people are allowed to "makeit" we are getting stuck with bigger and bigger bills fewer jobs and expected to just accept the layers of rules and regs. just because most of the people making the laws make a very decent chunk of money (in most cases just a general assumption not saying every postion) and are very out of touch with everyday Americans not everyone makes 150,000 a year by themselves no matter what career path they have taken. Heat is a big factor for us we have had some whopper bills I am working to seal up and remodel to insulate better and have been replacing windows ect. but the heat must be generated somehow and if its the difference between keeping our home or trying to sell in a horrible market just to move into a smaller home with no sentimental value well I will also be burning wood. Either way if there are rules they should apply to all situations even big business that is only fair but that more times than not is not the case!! Good luck to OWB owners in Ohio


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## Tesen (Mar 11, 2008)

django said:


> I agree with the slippery slope comment and many other observations so far, but I still cant see the point in regulating stoves that are hundreds of feet from anybody. I have a real problem with the Ohio EPA telling me I can't have the stove smoking up my own house. Notice that the regs don't say that the stove has to be 200' from your neighbor, they say from A PROPERTY LINE.



Dude I agree with you; unfortunately the EPA issue comes down again to a few bad owners ruining it for the rest. If you are not smoking up your neighbors then you are not the problem, the twits are the ones that are going to ruin it for everyone else. In my original post you will notice the comment, "If your OWB is smoking out the neighbor’s house, then your OWB has become a public nuisance." IMHO, local zoning regulations should be enough to enforce this, but unfortunately the public got scared and ran to the EPA. In your situation, it would be tough to be a public nuisance when your neighbors are so far away, so you get screwed.

Sorry man, I am just throwing out ideas as possible solutions; other than getting the damn epa proposal canned (doubt it will happen, I think the best we can hope for is reasonable usage/emissions laws).

Some how I do not see the public that pushed for this accepting any grandfather clauses, you know the types: It is either entirely their way, or they will sue people into submission.


Tes


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## oneoldbanjo (Mar 11, 2008)

Tazman1602: I agree that part of the cost increase in a new pickup is the fuel injection and catytic converter the EPA required "improvements" - but don't forget that the average person does not buy a entry level pickup anymore. We bought a 1995 Ford 1/2 ton, auto, V-8 two wheel drive for just under $ 10,000 - and it did have fuel injection and a catalytic converter. It did not have leather, it did not have AC, it did not have electric windows, it did not have carpet, it did not have a CD player, it did hot have a garage door transmitter, electric mirrors, it was not a diesel, it did not have an Allison Transmission, it did not have self dimming mirrors - all of which make the "deluxe" truck cost $ 35,000 and are not EPA required.

django: I believe the reason they state 200 feet from any property line is that your current neighbors (or the next owner) may want to build a house on their property someday in what is now a field. By stating the requirement is 200 feet from any property line the neighbor is given protection for their property - not just for any current buildings they may have.

I am sure we will never agree on what is and isn't reasonable for OWB requirements. I do believe that property owners do have rights and you should be able to burn wood if you want to - but you should not be allowed to blow unlimited amounts of smoke at my property. I am fortunate to own more than 4 acres and I have an OWB and it is more than 200 feet from my property boundaries - and I really think that there are some places that people live too close together and an outdoor boiler would really compromise the neighborhood. It would be nice if the OWB industry could regulate themselves and make products that smoke and pollute as little as possible, however it appears that the current technology on these OWB's is primitive at best - they are only able to turn a fan on when they are cold and turn it off when they are hot.


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## Tesen (Mar 11, 2008)

Tazman1602 said:


> Dude, no disrespect intended, but do you wonder why a pickup now costs around $35K? I can tell you in three letters..............EPA
> 
> Granted we have to be good stewards of this planet, but we also have to survive. Being allowed to do that as we see fit is a God given right.
> 
> The first new truck I ever bought I was 18 years old. It was a 1975 Ford F-150 4WD with all the goodies. $4500 out the door. You absolutely, positively NEED a 4WD where I live to get around in winter.



Not to argue, it is not just the EPA. That 1975 truck would cost: $18725.26 with inflation. Factor in increased wages, materials cost and extra R&D due to the EPA and yeah, they are expensive now.



> them. OWB's will be the same way in ten years once the EPA gets involved.



You do have a point, my point was if they are going to force OWB's to be EPA compliant then ram it down the current onwers throats, then they need to help the owner purchase a replacement OWB to meet standards. I do not think it is fair to force an OWB change on people just trying to stay warm, but if they are going to do it, very least they can pay for the damn switch.




> The only thing the EPA has ever accomplished is to make most of our lives expensive and complicated.
> JMHO



As you said, being good stewards to the Earth is a good thing; I am all for being green even at a little extra expense to myself, but again I do not think if you are forced to switch your OWB you should have to pay for it.

Tes


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## Tesen (Mar 11, 2008)

irishcountry said:


> I agree with being respectful of your neighbors thats why I mentioned using "common sense" I don't know too many people that would see their smoke sticking in their neighbors yard and not do something to rectify it but no doubt there are a few that said there has to be a point where people are allowed to "makeit" we are getting stuck with bigger and bigger bills fewer jobs and expected to just accept the layers of rules and regs. just because most of the people making the laws make a very decent chunk of money (in most cases just a general assumption not saying every postion) and are very out of touch with everyday Americans not everyone makes 150,000 a year by themselves no matter what career path they have taken. Heat is a big factor for us we have had some whopper bills I am working to seal up and remodel to insulate better and have been replacing windows ect. but the heat must be generated somehow and if its the difference between keeping our home or trying to sell in a horrible market just to move into a smaller home with no sentimental value well I will also be burning wood. Either way if there are rules they should apply to all situations even big business that is only fair but that more times than not is not the case!! Good luck to OWB owners in Ohio




I understand what you are saying man, I totally do - this is why I installed a wood furnace in my house and it has very nicely helped reduce heating costs. And yea I think the EPA rules are going to suck for OWB's, they are going to be some strict rules that have no business being in existance. Unfortunately the point I was originally making, is some of the disrepectful SoB's out there are going to ruin it for the OWB operators.

One of the points I was trying to make, if there is no way to stop it and they are going to force it, the EPA and state better make up for it with the OWB owners. Either grandfather the existing installations or cough up the money for people to replace their existing units.

I know quite a few ppl that burn with OWB's that will be up the well known creek without a paddle if the law is to drastic. My push on people is to attack this on two fronts, I seldom suggest attacking the even possibility of such laws existence since the cry hards out there will never let it go, so I usually sound off on controlling the damage. 1) Grandfather the existing units! 2) State/EPA cough the money up to replace them then with your approved versions!

But as others have said here, if they go after OWB's it won't be log for standard wood stoves and furnaces. And yeah, I agree with a lot of the comments here, it is not just the joe public #####ing, it is the utilities as well.

Tes


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## irishcountry (Mar 11, 2008)

I too hope that the EPA is going to make some reasonable suggestions I have a real problem with everything GREEN being pushed on one side but the same people pushing to eradicate things like OWB and wood burning stoves and fireplaces it seems like a oxymoron. I think attacking the problem from both sides is the only way to be fair maybe they will give incentives to switch if a better unit comes out and that would be OK but people have spent lots of money for some independence from the foreign oil that you keep hearing about in the media and in my book they are saving money and keeping those dollars in their local areas either buying wood or at least taking their saws in occasionally for a tune up at the local dealer. To me the towns all across our country need that kind of small town "economic stimulas package" we need to get back to that and at the same time be aware and responsible for our own actions. Maybe those same people will not be out to just ban all units right away with no exceptions I suppose we will see the trend soon enough, I will be watching from a distance for now.


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## Tazman1602 (Mar 12, 2008)

Tesen said:


> Not to argue, it is not just the EPA. That 1975 truck would cost: $18725.26 with inflation. Factor in increased wages, materials cost and extra R&D due to the EPA and yeah, they are expensive now.
> Tes



DOH! +1

.........You kicked my butt on that one, kudo's!

Man I just hate any type of government regulation when it comes to my personal life. I figure I ought to be able to do what I want when I want on my property --- now granted I left out the part about having my own 20 acres in the country. I guess if I lived in a neighborhood with a neighbor right next door I'd feel differently.............

.........but you know what I *would* do? I'd make dang square sure my chimney was above the roofline or somewhere that it would NOT smoke up the whole neighborhood.

NAH. I just wouldn't live there. I'd find an acre somewhere out in the sticks and live in a tarpaper shack before I'd live in the city -- no offense meant to you city folk here.........

Art


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## Tesen (Mar 12, 2008)

Tazman1602 said:


> DOH! +1
> 
> .........You kicked my butt on that one, kudo's!
> 
> Man I just hate any type of government regulation when it comes to my personal life. I figure I ought to be able to do what I want when I want on my property --- now granted I left out the part about having my own 20 acres in the country. I guess if I lived in a neighborhood with a neighbor right next door I'd feel differently.............



Down side to living next door to other people, you have to play nice if you want a nice quiet life 



Tazman1602 said:


> .........but you know what I *would* do? I'd make dang square sure my chimney was above the roofline or somewhere that it would NOT smoke up the whole neighborhood.
> 
> NAH. I just wouldn't live there. I'd find an acre somewhere out in the sticks and live in a tarpaper shack before I'd live in the city -- no offense meant to you city folk here.........
> 
> Art



I hear you dude, my wife wanted to live in the city, I wanted land (highspeed internet out in the sticks here was not an option at the time and she just needed her DSL or cable for gaming ). She now sees what I mean about living with land around you, it is nice and you can pretty much mind your own business with a decent property size.

Our current issue, is whether to buy weekend vacation land down south where it is cheaper, to escape or to purchase higher priced land up N, to shorten my 110 miles a day round trip to work. 


Tes


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## cmetalbend (Mar 13, 2008)

*chimney mods?*

Here's an interesting thought. Let's say your chimney is 20 above your roof line, but you live on the side of a hill where your neighbor lives at the top? The smoke will obviously travel up?


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## berry5 (Mar 14, 2008)

they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest


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## hanko (Mar 14, 2008)

berry5 said:


> they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest



guys like you are the problem, you screw it up for everybody


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## irishcountry (Mar 14, 2008)

Allright now thats the spirit that gets thing accomplished!! I agree, I am not some anti-government or conspiracy guy (I do think we are played all the time though!!) but in my opinion we are citizens of this country and if we pay our taxes well we should be able to do pretty much what WE (as in "the people") want short of putting a nuclear reactor on our property!! I understand wanting cleaner air/land ect. but why start with the guys way way way down the list we are talking about wood here fires occur in nature how are you going to regulate that CO2 production? I would like to see a study on the CO2 and particulate matter produced in a large wildfire then compare that figure with the number of OWB across the US running all winter and just see which pollutes more. Maybe it would be surprising but that is just a comparison with mother nature not big industries that burn tons of fuel making products or refining/cracking fuel ect.!! Like I stated before it seems fishy and we get more free taken and are left with just the dumb!! God bless americans and right now Ohio OWB's


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## hydro2 (Mar 15, 2008)

berry5 said:


> they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest



Far too often we just lie down and comply. I agree with you! Same goes with taxes. If most stop paying, what could be done?


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## Tazman1602 (Mar 17, 2008)

berry5 said:


> they outlaw my owb they will have to come and arrest me, when i get out it will be fired up, they are not telling me what i can or cant do, they cannot arrest all of us. i will pile up 20 times the amount of wood i burn in a year and burn it in the open in protest



I agree with you to a certain extent. I too am very, very tired of being told what I can do, when I can do it, and how I will be allowed to do it. The whole thing is stupid. 

I did a study while in college for Engineering. At that time there were almost 300,000,000 cars in the US and the EPA was cracking down on emission regulations. A tree hugger friend said we should go back to riding horses. OK, I"m up for a healthy debate.............

...........problem was when you factored in the methane gas and other pollutants that is emitted from horse poopy it is enough (even in those days.....there are now 500,000,000 cars now..) it is enough that the ozone layer would be gone and we would all be dead.

Long live the internal combustion engine......................


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## windthrown (Mar 17, 2008)

Well, protesting aside (I agree with the let 'em arrest me for burning wood in my OWB ), there are two OWB models at least that have or will have EPA approval. They are spendy; about ten grand for either one. But they are also way more efficient that traditional OWBs, (along the lines of wood gassifiers, which they both are), so you would burn probably half the wood in them for the same amount of heat. They also allow for long burn times, unlike traditional wood gassifiers. 

One is from Central Boiler: The E-Classic 2300 model outdoor wood furnace has qualified for the U.S. EPA Outdoor Wood-fired Hydronic Heater (OWHH) certification. www.centralboiler.com 

Another is from Sequoya: The model E3400 which is now has the orange EPA OWHH Phase 1 Sticker. www.wdheat.com


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## django (Mar 18, 2008)

Hi. Keep in mind when mentioning "compliant" stoves that the Federal EPA emissions or not as strict as what Ohio wants to implement. At "phase 2" Ohio regs are about 1/2 of federal.


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## woodlumn (Mar 18, 2008)

I'd like to see a study that compares the total pollution associated with:

1. the mining, production/refinement, transportation, and creation of infrastructure for delivery of natural gas and the wildlife refuges, national parks, wilderness, and towns that this all destroys

versus...

2. owb fueled by local wood

which one pollutes more, which one is afftecting more people? seems like a no-brainer to me.

people say that gas/kerosene/oil burns cleaner - yes, they _burn_ cleaner...but that's only telling a tiny fraction of the story.


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## irishcountry (Mar 18, 2008)

I couldn't agree with you anymore!! I never thought about a couple of those industries and your right it seems like a ABSOLUTE no brainer and I don't even own a OWB "YET". Tiny fraction is all they want the average everyday American to think about!!


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## windthrown (Mar 18, 2008)

django said:


> Hi. Keep in mind when mentioning "compliant" stoves that the Federal EPA emissions or not as strict as what Ohio wants to implement. At "phase 2" Ohio regs are about 1/2 of federal.



OH will wind up like CA. They will demand to use only 'clean' energy and pay a lot more for it, while states next door like West VA and Nevada will burn all the 'dirty' wood and oil and coal the others refuse to burn (and wind up with the same amount of smoke blowing around in the air). Of course, in most urban areas of CA, _ALL _wood burning appliances are banned for new construction. At the same time that they have severe power shortages...

These newer OWB systems are WAY better than existing ones on reducing air pollution, "Oh, but we want it all even more better!" Its going to be interesting when 2010 rolls around. I doubt the the US will be able to afford the luxury of super-clean burning energy technology, along with vastly higher prices for oil, coal, gas and wood. Price for diesel gas here is over $4 a gallon, thanks to the 'clean diesel laws' in effect. I will keep my 'dirty' OWB, and my 'dirty' 361.


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## blizzard (Mar 19, 2008)

*OWB's*

I was up in chataqua county new york this weekend and many people up there have OWB. Lots of Central boilers. I was over at peek n peek and when I was on the lift I could see the smoke plume from one of these units that was probably a mile a way. Big old cloud of smoke. Just thought I'd put down what I saw.


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## oneoldbanjo (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't believe Kentucky will be quick to limit or ban OWB's. We are not densly populated except in a few cities and we propably aren't cold enough that too many people will buy an OWB. We did have automobile emmision inspections for a while in the northern 3 counties - but it was not continued. It was a little odd that the State was inspecting our cars - while bunches of smokey old cars and trucks from the next county south were driving past my office in the morning to get to work in Cincinnati. If automobile inspections and OWB regulations come into Kentucky I bet it will have to be as a result of some Federal mandate.

Woodmaster claims the life expectancy of my OWB is 20 years and I hope to be able to wear it out - I will be 72 by then and maybe I will even get a few more years out of it if I take care of it. I will then have to make a decision about how fit I am to keep cutting and burning wood - it will still have been nice to avoid high energy costs for that long. I am sure by then the technology will have changed significantly and I can only hope to be able to afford another one - but maybe I can't afford to be without another one.


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## irishcountry (Mar 21, 2008)

Sounds like a plan, Kentucky is a beautiful state my grandma is in southern Ky. and their are still people that will wave to you whether you look familar or not on your way up the "holler" she is in gotta love that!! I will have to look up woodmaster sounds familar I will put it on my research list. Are you pretty happy with it?? Have a good weekend


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## peter nap (Mar 22, 2008)

cmetalbend said:


> Well here's my take. First it's the stack height, and the smoke, next it's the apprearence(big wood piles of dead rotting wood), then the safty factor(near a heavly wooded area) then on to people with allergies and how it creates reactions for them. Just another ploy by the gov. Giving them back control of How and what natural resources we use. As far as you folks that think the smoke is an inviromental issue. TELL IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO START FOREST FIRES. I'm tellin ya next we'll have to have permits, take classes, get licenced, equipment inspected, wood inspected, and there be only certain types of wood you can burn. My luck not what I have avaliable. And trust me sure as I set here, it will never end. And you will have to pay for everthing I listed just above. More revenue to Who? sure as he** not me. Ya great idea, just remember you said that.:angry2: Sorry guy's but I strongly DISAGREE.



I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

On neighbors with allergies....when I built here, I had no neighbors and liked it that way!
This county was a very rural farming community until they put in the interstate.
Over night it went to a very pricey, suburban area full of soccer moms with allergies.
I have 10 acres surrounded by quarter acre lots populated with complainers. No one says anything when the fertilizer they put on their lawns every other week, runs in my creek. But let me burn a few leaves in fall and listen to the screams.

I am NOT a good neighbor! I didn't ask them to move to the country and if they have severe enough allergies that it is a health problem.....They can go back where they came from or better yet die and quit taking up square footage.


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## jdboy9 (Mar 22, 2008)

I would rather them try and put regulations on how to build homes efficiently or how about putting regulations on the automotive market. I have no problem owning a small car to commute with and a truck to do my work with. Why am I still seeing suvs with one person in them? You want to bet a majority of the EPA people drive around gas guzzling vehicles?? Just a hunch

I have an f350 powerstroke modded out pretty good it gets about 12mpg I used to have a ranger 4x4 to drive in the winter well now I have a ford escort that gets about 32mpg. Yeah it sucks but I know I'm saving money and helping with the depletion of our oil resources. 

I just think there are other ways to regulate energy loss and pollution then riding everyone with boilers.


OH WAIT! I think I know why there aren't regulations like that with homes and cars....maybe just maybe its because homes and cars all use some sort of petroleum,nuclear,coal, etc energy source that the governments can line their pockets with. I guess I could be completely wrong but I sure feel like that's why things are the way they are.


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## peter nap (Mar 22, 2008)

jdboy9 said:


> I would rather them try and put regulations on how to build homes efficiently or how about putting regulations on the automotive market. I have no problem owning a small car to commute with and a truck to do my work with. Why am I still seeing suvs with one person in them? You want to bet a majority of the EPA people drive around gas guzzling vehicles?? Just a hunch
> 
> I have an f350 powerstroke modded out pretty good it gets about 12mpg I used to have a ranger 4x4 to drive in the winter well now I have a ford escort that gets about 32mpg. Yeah it sucks but I know I'm saving money and helping with the depletion of our oil resources.
> 
> ...



That's very true. I have a Chevy 2500 Diesel for heavy work, a Ford Focus for the light car and this year I bought a Whizzer.






After a little tinkering, it goes 48 MPH and gets 98 MPG. No tags needed.

My wife had so much fun on mine, I had to buy her one,


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## jdboy9 (Mar 22, 2008)

that is awesome  

I have a bike too but not that cool!! How much was it?


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## peter nap (Mar 23, 2008)

1,600.00.

Seems kinda pricey until I remember I had a road bike that was 1700.00. Then my knee blew out so no more peddling.

I was reading about a fellow that decided to ride his from Florida to Alaska. He planned to trailer it back but had so much fun, rode it back to Florida.

I figure mine has paid for itself already. The last time I filled my truck, it cost me 107.00. If I'm able to skip 6 fillups, I'm money ahead.

This bike has been around since the 40's and has changed very little. 138cc motor that's as trouble free as any I've seen. Here's a link:
http://www.whizzermotorbike.com/


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## peter nap (Mar 23, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> I want one!



 Doesn't surprise me one bit! I have never taken it anywhere that I didn't get a lot of people asking about it and where to buy one. I carry a stack of the dealers cards with me and to date, he has sold 12 of them from people that had cards I gave them.

The funniest one was one day I rode to a flea market where I find good deals on tools. ( I got a Makita sliding miter saw, new in the box for 75.00 once and no....I didn't ask a lot of questions)

Anyway, a fellow on a full dressed Harley walked over. First thing that crossed my mind was I was going to have to whip his behind for making fun of my Whizzer. He said, hey man, where'd you get that thing....I gotta have one!

I have him a card and spent the next 20 minutes telling him how to open the restrictor plate and shave the head and what size to rejet it to.


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