# Call me a Moron!!!



## MS TreeMonkey

I just wanted to send in a few pics to explain why you should always have someone teach you the proper procedures in sectioning down trees. This happedned back in November of 2005. I thought i had sense enough to do it without any advice. Well, on the first tree I ever sectioned down, i was about 35 feet up and cut to far through the stem too fast and when the saw got to the other side, the butt cut knocked the saw down into my knee. Needless to say, i didn't look at the cut until 3.5 hrs later when i finished the job!! It wasn't too bad, but it definitely scared me into thinking and learning proper procedures!!


----------



## smokechase II

*as requested*

Moron.

Retake the photos in focus so I can use them in a powerpoint.
At least the scar currently.

With permission.

Please and thanks.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

3.5 hours later you look at a chainsaw wound? Well, that wasn't the brightest thing you've ever done.

You could have bled to death in that time. Falling out of a tree because you passed out due to lack of blood is NOT conducive to a long life.


Tough is good, but not using common sense is not good.


----------



## MS TreeMonkey

smokechase II said:


> Moron.
> 
> Retake the photos in focus so I can use them in a powerpoint.
> At least the scar currently.
> 
> With permission.
> 
> Please and thanks.




Sorry, I can't retake the photos because it happened back in November.

BlueRidge, I could tell the bleeding wasn't too profuse, it was my kneecap, not my femoral artery!! I was doing a "buddy" job and i knew if the guy saw what happened he would insist i quit right then. I never claimed I was tough for continuing to work with a cut leg!! It was more of a warning to other "newbies" as what not to do!


----------



## lovetheoutdoors

Ouch.....better luck next time....


----------



## TwoTurboVolvos

I kinda did the same thing quite a few years(10+) ago. After falling a tree at my parents house, I was limbing it and the blade touched my knee cap after cutting a branch. I didn't think anything of it 'till a few minutes later when I felt my shin sticking to my pants...Long story short, 12 stitches later and I'm good!
Ron


----------



## clearance

BlueRidgeMark said:


> 3.5 hours later you look at a chainsaw wound? Well, that wasn't the brightest thing you've ever done.
> 
> You could have bled to death in that time. Falling out of a tree because you passed out due to lack of blood is NOT conducive to a long life.
> 
> 
> Tough is good, but not using common sense is not good.


Blue, if it ain't bleeding and you feel ok, why stop? Often the blood congeals and stops on its own. I have finished the day and got stitches before. Kept going and didn't get stitches when I should have as well. I am not tough like some of the old time loggers. Like guys who got cut real bad with an axe and put in stitches themselves. Or kept going after thier fingers were squashed to get something done, guys who thought freezing was for women when they were at the hospital. Once I shot myself in the fleshy part of my hand with a nailgun, 3" nail, my boss pulled it out and I kept on framing, thats my "tough" story. Blue, I guess you haven't spent too much time in the bush or construction, everyone has a tale or two.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

> Needless to say, i didn't look at the cut until 3.5 hrs later




Generally speaking, you have to look to see how much it's bleeding. I nailed myself in the thigh with a fresh blade on carpet scraper once. Didn't feel like anything but a pinprick. I looked to see, and I was dripping on the carpet. Rapidly. Good thing the new carpet hadn't been laid yet!  Almost made a secretary pass out.  



To get cut, check to see it's not serious, and go on with the job is one thing. I was responding to _*not even looking at it*_ for 3.5 hours. That really IS enough time to bleed to death if you've hit some major blood vessels, no matter how tough you are. If I know I've hurt myself, I check it out. Guess that makes me a sissy.


----------



## woodchux

I keep about a half dozen tubes of super glue on the truck ... just in case


----------



## hobby climber

Glad your OK now...hope you carry a blood stopper bandage up the trees with you on your saddle!!! Everyone should IMHO. HC


----------



## Sizzle-Chest

clearance said:


> I am not tough like some of the old time loggers. Like guys who got cut real bad with an axe and put in stitches themselves. Or kept going after thier fingers were squashed to get something done, guys who thought freezing was for women when they were at the hospital.



there's nothing tough about ignoring your injury, unless you think dying is cool. in a small logging town i used to live in a "tough" logger got clobered by a log, but instead of going to the hospital he just drank a cup of coffee and went back to work, not realizing that he was bleeding internally. he died before the end of the day.


----------



## Jumper

Its a guy thing called denial. Men are programmed from Day One to ignore and or minimalize injury/pain. I saw a stat regarding coronaries in middle aged men, half of all heart attacks are ignored to the point that big time damage sets in or worse death.


----------



## boo

woodchux said:


> I keep about a half dozen tubes of super glue on the truck ... just in case



super glue is toxic... I followed the streak---->>>> doc said I did a fine job other than the toxicity level of the super glue


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

???? My son just had super glue used on him in the emergency room.


$600 bucks worth!


----------



## Ryan Gossen

Have you guys ever noticed that the drive to complete a job can get a little wierd? I dont think Im as bad as most guys, but the few times when I required stiches, I had to be talked into leaving the job. I also noticed that those wounds did not hurt when they were made, probably due to exertion and adrenaline. Maybe to do a job like this, sometimes you have to rachet up your determination so high that a painless wound just dosnt register. Have to learn to let go though.


----------



## Treeman14

TwoTurboVolvos said:


> I kinda did the same thing quite a few years(10+) ago. After falling a tree at my parents house, I was limbing it and the blade touched my knee cap after cutting a branch. I didn't think anything of it 'till a few minutes later when I felt my shin sticking to my pants...Long story short, 12 stitches later and I'm good!
> Ron



Hmm, I thought the two toys were in your avatar. :jawdrop:


----------



## TwoTurboVolvos

Treeman14 said:


> Hmm, I thought the two toys were in your avatar. :jawdrop:


LOL! Well then I guess I have four toys!:hmm3grin2orange: 
Ron


----------



## MrRecurve

No-one thinks he should have had saw pants or chaps on??
Whats the standard of workplace safety in the Arbor industry in America? I would be too ashamed to tell anyone or show those pictures.

Moron.


----------



## Jumper

That was my thought exactly-a pair of lightweight saw pants would not have resulted in no injury, but likely nothing more than a bad bruise.


----------



## MrRecurve

I just dont understand how 

(a) he was allowed to not have any protection on. I would be sacked on the spot if my boss saw me cutting with no sawpants on, plus I would not be covered by my insurance, and workplace health and safety would look at fineing me. In the UK, you could have your arboricultural work license revoked!On top of that, I cant afford time off work or to damage my body through careless behaviour.

(b) how come in 2 pages of replies, nobody brought this up? I always thought that the States was light years ahead of Australia in this industry, but since Ive been browsing this site, I am starting to think differently. Saw pants or chaps are mandatory ppe in every outfit Ive ever worked for.


----------



## alanarbor

MrRecurve said:


> I always thought that the States was light years ahead of Australia in this industry,



Not in safety standards. Or I should say in enforcement of those standards.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

Exactly alanarbor, both standards and enforcement in the US are maybe less strict, so many tree serviceman start to lose the ppe when it gets really hot out and such. Most companies I've seen won't tolorate it, a few seem fine with it in low-profile locales. OSHA will definitely fine for it but I don't think they're going to strip a company of their license for that. I'm not 100% sure because I always where my chaps when climbing/cutting or bucking but I think only groundies are required to wear chaps here and climbers aren't. Virtually everyone has slipped a little here or there on the ppe (Aussie, American or otherwise) but I agree the gear should be used to reduce our exposure to bodily damage, a no-brainer. Seattle area tree services seem pretty good about it but there will always be your landscaper 30' up on a ladder with cigarette pursed between his lips as he holds the running saw in one hand and the branch he's cutting/supporting himself with in the other 

Since we're on the subject, anyone got any good tips for keeping the glasses from fogging up?


----------



## MS TreeMonkey

*Calm Down!!!*

Hey, let's remember when i started this thread, my point was that this was the first tree i had ever sectioned down. I was running off of pure nerves and adrenaline and trying to work too fast - not a good combination for a rookie. I've learned that it's much better to sit there for a few minutes to re-energize and think about your next cut than to just start hacking in a hurry. As for the chainsaw chaps - i still don't wear them. When it's 97 degrees and 92% humidity - it's all i can do to stay hydrated. I don't need a pair of chainsaw chaps getting hung on every branch and twig on the way up a tree. All that does is piss me off. I know i'm gonna catch a lot of flack for that statement - but it's true. I would rather spend an extra 15 minutes in a tree being extremely careful than putting on a pair of hot, sticky, tree tanglin' chaps and hackin' away. Go ahead, tear me apart, say i'm stupid, i'll let it roll off my back along with the other 2lbs of sweat i lose everyday! I'm not trying to be a jackass, i just don't see where it would end if you insist on climbers wearing chaps. What about cutproof gloves... and forearm guards... and a neck protector in case the saw kicks back in a funny way! How about a $50 fine if you take your safety glasses off - even if it's just to wipe the sweat away!

My gear consists of a pair of good leather gloves (usually a new pair every 3 or 4 jobs), a pair of thick, Dickies carpenter jeans, my Red Dawg climbin' boots, usually a short sleeve buttonup shirt, safety sunglasses and a yellow lineman helmet.


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

BTW, TreeMonkey, okay....


_*You're a moron!*_


There. Happy now?






Well, you DID ask for that, didn't you?


----------



## diltree

Monkey....what good climber wears chaps while climbing???? I will be honest with you ; I wear shorts when its anything over 70 degrees and I love It!!!



www.dillontree.com


----------



## clearance

diltree said:


> Monkey....what good climber wears chaps while climbing???? I will be honest with you ; I wear shorts when its anything over 70 degrees and I love It!!!
> 
> 
> 
> www.dillontree.com


Unfortunately I have to wear saw pants at my job, I always climbed in jeans before, never shorts. Its not that bad, getting used to it, no need to wear saw pants climbing, if you get cut it will be somewhere on your upper body. I always wear saw pants or chaps on the ground, thats where they should be worn.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

*Chapless in MS*

MS treemonkey climbing and cutting is serious business...you posted an ad about cutting your knee open with a chainsaw, of course chaps are going to be mentioned. A self-proclaimed rookie should use this resource of information productively and not get so flustered by it. That doesn't mean follow everything everyone else says but do pay attention and compare notes and learn from some of these arborists who have been around a while.

Personally I choose to wear chaps in the tree because it's cooler here in Seattle (usually) and the heat/sweat factor is the only drawback I find in chaps. IMO they don't feel 'sticky' or 'tree-tanglin' in fact I forget they're there for the most part. I could count on one hand the number of times they've tangled in a tree branch. One thing I like about them is the added layer of protection from the elements protecting my legs (sharp branches, insects, my boney shins and knees vs. hard wood, etc.. I know it's hot down there though. I was recently in Biloxi/Gulfport area removing trees from structures for Hands on USA (www.handsonusa.org). The humidity you work in down there is crazy. 

I think you were right on when you said 'hackin' in a hurry' was one problem. Probably the main problem. Hope your knee is good!


----------



## MS TreeMonkey

*Thanks!!!*

First of all gitrdun, thank you for coming down and helping the folks on the coast! Many people across the country - i don't think - realized just how bad it got down there. 

The tanglin' part i was referring to primarily relates to the sweet gums and hackberries that are so popular to take out down here. They've got zillions of branches that snag my chaps and it drives me crazy! I understand what you're saying, though --- and i'll quit :deadhorse: 

Diltree, i'll have to stick with clearance - no shorts for me!!! Well, we'll have to wait until August and September gets here - those are our hottest months!


----------



## MrRecurve

clearance said:


> Unfortunately I have to wear saw pants at my job, I always climbed in jeans before, never shorts. Its not that bad, getting used to it, no need to wear saw pants climbing, if you get cut it will be somewhere on your upper body. I always wear saw pants or chaps on the ground, thats where they should be worn.



Well this example certainly doesnt agree with your opinion. Chainsaw pants should be worn whenever and wherever the saw is being operated.


----------



## trevmcrev

Yes chaps get tangled, but the latest summerweight chainsaw trousers are pretty comfy. Here in Australia it gets real hot too but Melbourne isnt real humid. Here its just a given that if you use a saw you wear the pants, even for climbers. Clearance, you may not feel too at risk of cutting you leg doing your sort of work, bombing out big tops etc, but doing lots of fine cutting in all sorts of odd positions doing crown cleaning/reduction type work you do often make cuts near your legs and its worth being protected there IMO.

I also like the extra padding on the front of my legs for leaning a knee on a branch etc.

Try it, you do get used to them. If you start off in them in the winter youll be used to it by summer and wont go back.

I almost feel nude without them!!!

Trev


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

Clearance what makes you think your legs aren't at risk of getting cut when running a saw in a tree? That was interesting seeing that this thread is about a guy who almost cut his kneecap off...while in a tree!

I don't know how many times I've had that 200T full throttle only inches from my legs. My good friend cut himself up the back of one of his legs when his saw kicked (many years ago)...27 stitches.

You may have people in this forum who are on the fence with the issue and here you are telling them their legs aren't at risk when in a tree so don't bother with the ppe (hey, that rhymed). Last time I remembered gravity pulls down but correct me if I'm wrong.

Whether they should be mandatory or not I don't know. Probably with the heat and such they shouldn't but that's a government thing. I wear em cause I care about my body. Life would suck with no kneecap!


----------



## clearance

It would take a lot of effort to cut your kneecap off with an 020, think about it. I would like to hear the stats on where people get cut climbing, if that stat came out there would be pressure to climb with saw protection on your arms and hands, cause thats where it happens, almost all the time. Feel like wearing some heavy, hot shirt and gloves, or would you rather climb in a t-shirt and be carefull? Risks have to be quantified, is it likely or not, and are the benefits worth it, not mindless fear. Trev, I climb with fallers pants all the time now cause I sub for a logging outfit, thier guys wear them, but they run 066 saws on the ground, where saw pants really belong.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

opcorn: 
The kneecap thing wasn't meant to be taken literally but severing an artery or slashing through tendon isn't so beond the realm of possibility. I totally agree that risk needs to be quantified and that less ppe and more care is one way to stay safe in the tree. Somehow that reminds me of growing up never wearing safety glasses running a weedwhipper until finally just last year, at 32 I got hit so hard in the eye with a seed I wished I had lost it! I've only been climbing a few years now and started out wearing all that ppe in the tree cause I knew I needed all the protection I could get short of a teflon chest protector and groin cup...I was inexperienced and I knew it. The saw pants thing just always stayed with me cause I got used to them, that's all. In my quantification I factor in that only a few days out of the year does it get hot enough here to worry about the layers; they're light and protective and help keep pitch, rain, etc. off my legs; that 046 mag gets heavy when bombing large chunks so I like that orange landing pad in my lap should things get ugly:O I'll shut up about chaps now, I don't want to be known as some chaps-spokesman or something!


----------



## clearance

Git, I understand, don't get me wrong, I wear a hard hat with a screen and muffs, boots, always have a whistle and pressure bandage on me. The only time I don't like to wear leg protection is in a tree.


----------



## a_lopa

i strongly disagree with you on this issue clearance,whos going to put the bandage on when your 80' up?no-one your another stat in the tree climbers dead book.ive held a bandage to a saw cut(not mine) to a leg cut it just missed the main arterie.trust me youl be dead before you could apply it if you did hit that arterie.as ive said theres main arteries in your legs have a think about it,i guess you wont thou.


----------



## Ekka

trevmcrev said:


> but doing lots of fine cutting in all sorts of odd positions doing crown cleaning/reduction type work you do often make cuts near your legs and its worth being protected there IMO.
> 
> I also like the extra padding on the front of my legs for leaning a knee on a branch etc.
> 
> Trev



Can you please explain what sort of pruning you do down thatta ways, what sort of trees etc.

Just interested.

Oh, who'd wear shorts in this job?


----------



## Ekka

I just wear long dacks but I do have some nice stihl chainsaw dacks, they're around $200 a throw here and for that I can get 6 pair of these other dacks.

I haven't really cut myself on the leg but know plenty who have.

There's no argument that having the pants on is safer but I dont, I suppose one day the regs will force us to.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

I sure hope not. I've come to agree it should be a personal choice as well. Given the various conditions arborists have to work in there has to be wiggle room for those working in extremely hot and humid weather and such.

For those in good conditions who still don't, good luck with that.


----------



## clearance

a_lopa said:


> i strongly disagree with you on this issue clearance,whos going to put the bandage on when your 80' up?no-one your another stat in the tree climbers dead book.ive held a bandage to a saw cut(not mine) to a leg cut it just missed the main arterie.trust me youl be dead before you could apply it if you did hit that arterie.as ive said theres main arteries in your legs have a think about it,i guess you wont thou.


Who? me thats who, I have a pressure bandage on me at all times. The main artery in your leg, the femoral, is pretty hard to hit climbing.


----------



## Jim1NZ

Hey clearance, you think you will be able to apply a pressure bandage, keep pressure on it at all times and get down out of a tree before you bleed to death if you hit a main artery in your leg with a chain saw?

This all being who knows where in the bush or what ever, while your in shock.

Wow mate you must be good.

I reckon you got to were trousers anyway so why not wear ones with protection in them.


----------



## clearance

Jim1NZ said:


> Hey clearance, you think you will be able to apply a pressure bandage, keep pressure on it at all times and get down out of a tree before you bleed to death if you hit a main artery in your leg with a chain saw?
> 
> This all being who knows where in the bush or what ever, while your in shock.
> 
> Wow mate you must be good.
> 
> I reckon you got to were trousers anyway so why not wear ones with protection in them.


Jim, I climb with fallers pants cause I have to, I used to climb in jeans, which I prefer. If you hit a main artery in your leg, it would be close to your bag and I never ever cut anywhere around my bag. I have been cut with saws before, a little 8 stitch on my wrist from a 200t and a bad one on my arm years back from a 266, I am aware of what they can do. Fact of the matter is that people that get cut climbing are cut in the upper body, do you wear a saw protective shirt and gloves?


----------



## Jim1NZ

I have never seen protective shirts and i dont no how you world cut your hand if your using the saw with two hands at all times.

How did you cut your arm and wrist?


----------



## clearance

There are protective shirts, I have only seen pictures in a Husky catolog, I am sure you could get them down under. How did I cut my wrist, one handing, of course, how else. How did I cut my arm, spacing (thinning small trees), piecework, saw in my hands running, fell into a hole, saw hit roots from an old blowdown, came back at my face but my arm was there. I really have no desire to get the "one handing" arguement going again, don't go there, I don't want to hear it. As I said, saw cuts climbing are usually to the upper body, so it would be in your interest to investigate these protective Husky shirts.


----------



## Ekka

clearance said:


> If you hit a main artery in your leg, it would be close to your bag and I never ever cut anywhere around my bag.



 

Hey, what are fallers pants? Got a pic


----------



## clearance

Ekka said:


> Hey, what are fallers pants? Got a pic


Saw pants, trousers I guess you call them, with suspenders that hold them up.


----------



## a_lopa

TreeCo said:


> I don't see the need for chaps in the tree either. There are other parts of the body much more at risk than the legs. I would look carefully at climbing positions that leave you cutting with a 200T inches from your legs.
> 
> It should be a personal choice.
> 
> If legs chaps are made mandatory then whole body chaps are the next logical progression.




no one would hire you here climbing without cut proof pants dan,im not joking.


----------



## a_lopa

i know where your coming from but lets be honest legs covered does cover alota bases,im wearing them now after a weeks work,feral yes.


----------



## trevmcrev

Ekka said:


> Can you please explain what sort of pruning you do down thatta ways, what sort of trees etc.
> 
> Just interested.
> 
> Oh, who'd wear shorts in this job?



We remove plenty of big Eucs, just because they are everywhere, so we also prune plenty too.
We prune Oaks, PinOaks, Elms, Liquidambars, Maples, Ash, etc. Lots of exotic deciduous trees that do well here with the cooler winters.

But hey, in summer we get 40 degrees celsius and still wear chainsaw pants ( no suspenders though sorry clearance but reckon they look funny, only ever seen em in old logging photos with the metal full brim hard hats:hmm3grin2orange: 

Pruned some freaky tropical looking thing the other day though, should send you a pic and see if you can ID it. Kept really bugging me the whole time that i didnt know what i were pruning:bang: 

Trev


----------



## Ekka

Yeah, about the only deciduos stuff up here is Liquidamber and Chinese elm (weed). You dont really see trees without leaves for months on end ... and I've put my foot in it the odd occasion thinking ..

.. oh it must be dead. Derr, it's winter but you forget.


----------



## trevmcrev

TreeCo said:


> I believe you. I just think there are parts of the body much more exposed. I see it as a step towards regulating climbing arborist right out of business. As Clearance mentioned, where is the arm, face and upper body protective clothing? Might as well have a one piece coverall. Climbing wearing a fireman's suit comes to mind.



I have seen SIP catalogs from the UK with cut resistant vests, jackets and gloves, it is available. I have considered a left wrist/lower forearm cover made from the same stuff to protect our climbers in the inevitable one handed cut gone wrong situation. Maybe for you that would be a good start at a minimum if you think there is a much higher risk there than in the leg area. I guess here its just become a part of the professional side of the industrys mentality to wear chainsaw pants. Chainsaw pants have evolved over the years too, and the latest stihl pants are so lightweight/vented on the back of the legs that it just about negates the thickness on the front. IMO denim jeans are probly as hot coz they dont breath well. If im not using a chainsaw, just hand pruning or doing stumps i wear Dickies work pants.

Trev.


----------



## Ekka

I wear Target easy fit Chino's with the pleted front and baggy. Nice and soft, light and plenty of air circulation.

Clearance would like them coz theres _bags_ of room. :hmm3grin2orange: 

Those dickies look much like the King Gee stuff, to tight and stiff.

http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=dickies work pants&sa=N&tab=wi


----------



## Jim1NZ

Hey i was just wondering, who thinks it would be easy or hard to cut your legs climbing? One or the other, then tell me how much of the time climbing do you spend in spikes?

I mean, wouldn't it be easier to cut your legs while climbing without spikes because you have to position yourself allot differently/irregularly to make your cuts. Besides spike pads would offer some protection too wouldn't they???


----------



## clearance

Jim1NZ said:


> Hey i was just wondering, who thinks it would be easy or hard to cut your legs climbing? One or the other, then tell me how much of the time climbing do you spend in spikes?
> 
> I mean, wouldn't it be easier to cut your legs while climbing without spikes because you have to position yourself allot differently/irregularly to make your cuts. Besides spike pads would offer some protection too wouldn't they???


1) Hard to cut your legs 2) All the time in spikes 3) I suppose 4) Yes, some, hard on the chain though.


----------



## Ekka

Jim

I think you are more likely to cut your legs on the ground than climbing.

But I do think you are more likely to cut your legs when NOT wearing spikes, ie pruning.

I 90% of the time climb with spikes coz hardly anybody wants pruning in this town. Oh, I dont count palm cleaning as pruning, I call it janitor duties for the arborcultural profession.


----------



## trevmcrev

Jim1NZ said:


> Hey i was just wondering, who thinks it would be easy or hard to cut your legs climbing? One or the other, then tell me how much of the time climbing do you spend in spikes?
> 
> I mean, wouldn't it be easier to cut your legs while climbing without spikes because you have to position yourself allot differently/irregularly to make your cuts. Besides spike pads would offer some protection too wouldn't they???



Ahhhh, the penny just dropped:yoyo: Yeah i see where clearance is coming from now on this one. When up & down a trunk on spikes you wont be cutting anywhere near your legs, duuuhhh. But definitly when working allover the canopy of a tree, pruning, spikeless you do. Thats where i were coming from. So yeah, if you only climb on spikes i can see how youd think it not likely to cut your legs. Not that i think for a minute this should become a "climb with spikes, its safer" thread. Just 2 very different aspects of tree work, with different hazards.

Trev


----------



## John Paul Sanborn

alanarbor said:


> Not in safety standards. Or I should say in enforcement of those standards.



The only time there is any real enforcement is when there is a death or multiple injury.

In some of the bigger metro areas OSHA will partol, but I've not heard of any company getting stopped in my area.

I see companies all the time with NO PPE on site. Shorts and no shirt in the bucket....

I never understood how people work all the time with no ear protection?!?


----------



## Ekka

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I never understood how people work all the time with no ear protection?!?



Ha, I wonder too, especially when they stand right next to that 18" chipper feeding it all day.


----------



## SRT-Tech

Ekka said:


> Ha, I wonder too, especially when they stand right next to that 18" chipper feeding it all day.




WHAT DID YOU SAY??? :hmm3grin2orange: 


i spent the bucks and got the best Peltor ear muffs i could. double cupped, nitrile rubber seal over the ears, very comfortable.....34 decibel noise reduction, the boss hates em.......cuz i cant hear him :hmm3grin2orange:


----------



## BlueRidgeMark

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I never understood how people work all the time with no ear protection?!?




It's the arrogance of ignorance, John. 


"Yeah, big deal! I've been doing this for years and I hear just fine! Ear protection is for sissies!"


Then they hit their 40s or 50s and wonder why they don't hear as well as they used to.

Too late, bud. You had your hearing, and you had your chance to protect it. Both are gone now.

So, who's the sissy now, you with the hearing aid in both ears, that can't quite make out the voice of his little grandson?


----------



## Jim1NZ

trevmcrev said:


> Ahhhh, the penny just dropped:yoyo: Yeah i see where clearance is coming from now on this one. When up & down a trunk on spikes you wont be cutting anywhere near your legs, duuuhhh. But definitly when working allover the canopy of a tree, pruning, spikeless you do. Thats where i were coming from. So yeah, if you only climb on spikes i can see how youd think it not likely to cut your legs. Not that i think for a minute this should become a "climb with spikes, its safer" thread. Just 2 very different aspects of tree work, with different hazards.
> 
> Trev



Well done trev, this is exactly the reply i was looking for.

I think if your on a trunk there is less chance you will cut your legs because you simply dont cut near them. Pruning is a lot different, the positioning is different, balance is different, skills are different.

Il stick to my chainsaw trousers.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

*everything has it's time and place*

That is a nice distinction Trev. Makes sense out of the whole thing. I'm in spikes on removals about half the time. The other half is on rope pruning and I definitely see more radical positions with the legs to make good cuts while pruning. In spikes you're cutting above the waist, mostly, if you strip on the way up.

Once again the argument for 'time and place' wins out. Spikes have them, saw pants have them, etc. etc.


----------



## MrRecurve

Ekka said:


> Jim
> 
> I think you are more likely to cut your legs on the ground than climbing.
> 
> But I do think you are more likely to cut your legs when NOT wearing spikes, ie pruning.
> 
> I 90% of the time climb with spikes coz hardly anybody wants pruning in this town. Oh, I dont count palm cleaning as pruning, I call it janitor duties for the arborcultural profession.



Do you clean on spikes?


----------



## Ekka

All the time, I specify on my quotes that's how it will be done. If they dont want it spiked then I can give them other prices and options, but 99% of the time they've been spiked previously.

However, you wouldn't want to spike say Cubans that havent been spiked before, so then you'd give them options and costs.

AS4373 states wearing of spikes for pruning shall be avoided not that it should never be done. You need to weigh up the case on it's own merits. OHS for working off ladders is a shocker, so then you either set a high line and work from that but productivity will drop and the liklihood of an accident will increase statistically as you haven't got your feet secured (even with loops) as well as you do with spurs.


----------



## MrRecurve

When I clean palms, I usually throw a work/bull rope over the tree, then use it to pull up a pulley or cambium saver with my line attached, then tie the bull rope off at the base of the palm. When Im finished, I pull the bull rope out, and "walla!" no unsightly spike marks.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

*Afc*

Adjustable false crotch on a palm...clever.

I know nothing about cleaning palms tho.


----------



## Ekka

MrRecurve said:


> When I clean palms, I usually throw a work/bull rope over the tree, then use it to pull up a pulley or cambium saver with my line attached, then tie the bull rope off at the base of the palm. When Im finished, I pull the bull rope out, and "walla!" no unsightly spike marks.



Yeah, and by that time I would have done 3 of them.

Recurve, how much longer do you think it takes and what is the cost for say a 30' cocos palm average head not done for 1 year.


----------



## MrRecurve

I usually sting around 80 for a clean on spikes and 100 without. I give people the choice, and you would be surprised how many pay the extra 20. It only takes me half an hour with the false crotch, hardly slower than spikes at all. Very rarely I will have a hard time getting the bull rope out, and that may blow a palm out 5 minutes or so.


----------



## Jim1NZ

Hey Ekka how how have you seen people spikeless cleaning?

I had a go a while ago, throw ball directly over the top as you do for setting a rope, pull my climbing line through, then i tie that end off on the base of the palm. I set my footlock prussic on the other half of the rope and single line footlock to the top. I use a adjustable footlock prussic to get close then laynard in to the stem, i use a climbing line with standard set up to maneuver round the palm.

Seems to work sweet, bit of a mission though. Can do one in about half an hour but think i would be faster with a bit of practice.


----------



## gitrdun_climbr

*diversity in technique*

Wow, there sure is more than one way to skin a palm it sounds like. So if a palm gets 'cleaned' once a year and the climber spikes it every time, what does that thing look like after 5 or more years?

It seems to me that charging by the hour rather than by the tree would aleviate some of the need to damage the 'cared-for' tree for faster money but again, I've never climbed a palm...sort of a blind opinion I suppose.

:monkey:


----------

