# Why spurless utility Sucks



## clearance

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...utility+arborist+accident&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13 Branch he was standing on broke, if he was wearing spurs this would have never happened.


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## MrRecurve

What does being spikeless have to do with anything? I'm confused.

"If Jim had climbed higher and crotched his rope at a better angle relative to his work position, when the limb snapped Jim would have fallen down into the saddle rather than back into the electric line"

If Jimbo had set a proper high point to work from, his weight wouldnt have been 100% on the limb and it most likely wouldnt have broken.

How would spikes benefit this situation?


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## clearance

Treeco, you can go sit in the truck. Mr. R., if the man had spurs he wouldn't have had to to stand on any branch at all, and with his flipline would have been anchored to the tree, not dependent on a rope and its placement for safety.


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## Treeblitzer

Isn`t Bartlet owned by Asplundh? If so Asplundh has a policy that states a climber must be tied in above and away from all conductor`s.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

I feel dumber for having read this thread.


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## rbtree

Mike Maas said:


> I feel dumber for having read this thread.



The thread starter is the one that should be tucking his tail between his legs....

amazing.


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## MrRecurve

clearance said:


> Treeco, you can go sit in the truck. Mr. R., if the man had spurs he wouldn't have had to to stand on any branch at all, and with his flipline would have been anchored to the tree, not dependent on a rope and its placement for safety.



I thought that that was what climbing arborists did? Depend on ropes I mean. I must have my job description confused.

Any hack can spike a prune and take the limb at the trunk, that level of skill hardly lets you call yourself a climber, let alone an arborist.


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## clearance

You mutts would be electrocuted doing utility, its about safety and keeping the power on, the trees come third, where they belong. Guy was almost killed climbing the "proper way", great, bet he wishes he had been a "hack".


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## MrRecurve

The point is that he WASNT climbing the proper way. Thats why he got fried.


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## woodchux

I think that accident could have happened spurless or with hooks on.
The real danger spurless utility climbing would be setting the climbing line around wires


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## beowulf343

That article brings up a question we used to argue about when I did row. When you are climbing, do you climb all the way to the top of the tree even if it is 50 feet above the lines or do you just climb as high as you need to to get the job done. The tree top climbers would always argue that the higher you are the more maneuverability you have while in the tree (which is true.) But the other guys would always argue that all that extra climbing is just a waste of energy and time-climbing an extra 30-40 feet every tree all day adds up fast. The point is now moot for me since I haven't trimmed in over 7 years, but I am interested in the opinions of some other line clearance trimmers.


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## Kneejerk Bombas

You should tie in a good amount above your work, but you don't need to go all the way to the top. This climbers problem was he didn't go quite high enough, he tried to climb the absolute minimum, to reach his work. It had nothing to do with spike or spikeless.


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## clearance

Mike Maas said:


> I feel dumber for having read this thread.


When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work, then you can tie your rope to a good point and come down. There is no need to ever have your rope higher than you are to hold you while you are working, you climb up, cut off branches to get clearance, tie in and come down, simple, safe. What cannot you spurless do gooders understand, even you Mike, even because you are dumber now ?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

clearance said:


> When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work, then you can tie your rope to a good point and come down. There is no need to ever have your rope higher than you are to hold you while you are working, you climb up, cut off branches to get clearance, tie in and come down, simple, safe. What cannot you spurless do gooders understand, even you Mike, even because you are dumber now ?


Before I read this post, I might have been able to answer that question.

I climb with spikes, about 30 or 40% of the time, I'll still get up a bit above my work, even if it's just tossing the end of my line up a bit.

Clearance, you say, "When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work."
It didn't prove to be true in this case, did it?


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## MrRecurve

clearance said:


> When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work, then you can tie your rope to a good point and come down. There is no need to ever have your rope higher than you are to hold you while you are working, you climb up, cut off branches to get clearance, tie in and come down, simple, safe. What cannot you spurless do gooders understand, even you Mike, even because you are dumber now ?



So what do you do when you need to reduce the limb by 20% ?? Cut it off at the trunk then do your reduction on the ground?

Are you even a climber or do you just have a ladder?


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## Kneejerk Bombas

MrRecurve said:


> So what do you do when you need to reduce the limb by 20% ?? Cut it off at the trunk then do your reduction on the ground?
> 
> Are you even a climber or do you just have a ladder?


LOL, a line clearance guy doing a branch reduction? That's a good one.


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## jonseredbred

*missing the point*

what we are forgetting is that Jim is screwed for life. You ALWAYS climb to a point well above your work thats tree climbing 101, unless you work for a utility and production is #1 priority. Tree's are not priority #3, if all the trees are hacked up and gone, where you gonna work? I like spikes too, but they would not have helped Jim, Start tying in above your work so you can go home every nite. :deadhorse:


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## beowulf343

jonseredbred said:


> what we are forgetting is that Jim is screwed for life. You ALWAYS climb to a point well above your work thats tree climbing 101 :deadhorse:


Not always, it sucks tying in above your work when your dropping a top.


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## jonseredbred

but you still have to work the bottom before you drop the top, or do you just go up and crash the top thru the tree and plow it into your customers lawn? I know sometimes you/we take shortcuts, but when your going to be in a tree for a given period of time, tie in high and you will allways be on safteys side.

Why chance getting hurt??


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## beowulf343

jonseredbred said:


> but you still have to work the bottom before you drop the top, or do you just go up and crash the top thru the tree and plow it into your customers lawn? I know sometimes you/we take shortcuts, but when your going to be in a tree for a given period of time, tie in high and you will allways be on safteys side.
> 
> Why chance getting hurt??


You know, I was making a joke, but if you want to get serious, fine. 
I spend probably a couple hours every day working above where i'm tied in-it's called removals. Sure, when you start, you can tie in high and drop the low stuff, but sooner or later you are going to reach the point where you're cutting above your lanyard, rope, etc. If you're careful and always tie in twice, you can work like this without a problem-i've done it this way for years and haven't fallen out of a tree yet.
As to crashing the top, there are such things as ropes, false crotches, etc. that will allow you to drop the top without crashing it through the tree or plowing up the lawn-you just have to know how to use them. Also, not every tree has branches growing all the way up from bottom to top-sometimes you can just run up, drop the top, and start chunking down without having to cut any low branches (and all this cutting is done above your tie-in.) 
If you just trim trees, your point is a good one and I follow it myself. But if you've never done a removal, than please don't try to tell me to ALWAYS tie in above my work-you obviously don't know what you're talking about or you are a newbie. And if that is the case, why are you posting a know-it-all statement like that on the commercial thread?


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## beowulf343

You know, it felt so good to vent I'm going to continue.

The thing that annoys me about this site is that most people seem to forget there are different disciplines when it comes to tree work. There is trimming, removals, and line clearance (which is a whole different animal in itself.) Most people do either one or a combination of a couple but vey few do all three and are experts in it. So why does someone who does primarily trimming gives pointers to a guy who does primarily removals. I'll admit, I do mostly removals, so you don't see me giving alot of advice to the trimmers or line clearance guys (although I've done both, I don't have the experience of someone who does it every day for a living.) And I'm not talking about honest questions either. The other day I was asking about using ladders-I didn't tell people they were unsafe, i was just curious as to how other climbers use them safely. For example, I may ask clearance why he uses spikes but I won't tell him not to use them because he knows more about line clearance than I do. 
To sum up, if I want pointers on removals, I want them from someone who does removal. (And I'm only talking about things that pertain to removals only. Questions about ropes, knots, saws, etc. are free game.)


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## jonseredbred

I know you cant always tie in above your work. I have done more removals than I can count and I am not a newbie. I watch many a climber come to work and tie in 2 foot above the first limb they are gonna take out only to scramble around to tie in again and I was making discussion on that particular accident. Sorry you bit on it and became offended but I am sure you have seen climbers do it to.


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## coydog

first of all, we don't know he wasn't wearing spikes, if he was far enough out on a limb that his line was horizontal and his head clipped the line when he took the swing then he might have been standing out on the limb to clear some overhang before he took the limb all the way off at the trunk, in which case spikes or not would have made no difference. Notice the first thing that happened was his hard had fell off his head little good a class e hat will do if it flies off your head, would a chinstrap have saved him? who knows...


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## RedlineIt

Article doesn't say he was spurless or not, we don't know how he accessed the hemlock.

Article does say his rope was horizontal, not verticle which means he was on a limbwalk, so spurless or not is moot.

Only thing to learn from article is tie in high for a limbwalk, full-stop. Line clearance, prune, setting a rigging line, removal or whatever limbwalk = high tie-in.

Oh, that and the fact that an unsecured construction workers hardhat that flies off your head is probably not a good bet for tree work.


RedlineIt


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## jonseredbred

redline put everything in perspective, he is 100% correct.


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## anuvadave

clearance said:


> When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work,



this is a qoute directly from the accident report which you should probably read again.

"He climbed the tree and secured himself around the main stem at approximately the same height he would be working." 

if he had no highline wouldnt he have just fallen out of the tree with the branch??


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## rbtree

Good job on bringing this old thread back, that made clearance look stupid. 

The article further states that, because he didn't set his lifeline well above, it was horizontal. Had he properly set it, he would have been able to limit his weight on the branch as he climbed out on it. Without seeing the situation, I'm going to assume that he should have also tip tied the branch and lifted it away from the primaries. This could have been done with an insulated pole. Hey, here I am, not a certified line clearance worker, describing how the job should (or could) have been done.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> When you climb with spurs you only have to climb as high as you need to do your work, then you can tie your rope to a good point and come down. There is no need to ever have your rope higher than you are to hold you while you are working, you climb up, cut off branches to get clearance, tie in and come down, simple, safe. What cannot you spurless do gooders understand, even you Mike, even because you are dumber now ?



I want to be above the wires as to not be put in direct path to ground.
I however understand the spur thing but your approach is rusty the
fatigue factor would be greater and time and production would suffer
to a point that electric bills would get way too high. Spurs in a positioning
sence, offer far superior ease in piecing near overhead conductors.


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## clearance

*Stupid??*



rbtree said:


> Good job on bringing this old thread back, that made clearance look stupid.
> 
> The article further states that, because he didn't set his lifeline well above, it was horizontal. Had he properly set it, he would have been able to limit his weight on the branch as he climbed out on it. Without seeing the situation, I'm going to assume that he should have also tip tied the branch and lifted it away from the primaries. This could have been done with an insulated pole. Hey, here I am, not a certified line clearance worker, describing how the job should (or could) have been done.



Really now, listen up, I climb with spurs, and how do you climb with spurs? With a steelcore. of course, no need to be standing on branches like this poor fellow was. I am stuck into the main stem, I tie in to what I can see to come down, thats it. Now, answer this, all you ISA geniuses, how could this have happened if he had been climbing with spurs and steelcore?????


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## lxt

Clearance not that I agree or disagree, 

#1 where I come from steel core is a no no, your working around powerlines "steel" is a conductor!!!

#2 tie in at the highest safest point possible, c`mon we in the Line field have had to take overhang off, Ive been out over the phases scared but did it safely or as safe as possible.

#3 in line clearance spikes are more for production than safety IMO, Ive taken them off when doing overhangs or prune out`s of the secondary banks, 

the climber in my opinion is the boss when aloft (apprentices not included) this gentleman just made an unfortunate/deadly mistake, clearance if what you are doing works for you & you make it home every night alive....God Bless you, keep doing it....but have an open mind!!!

LXT...........


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## clearance

*Clearing up some things, with facts*

Paths to ground that power uses-Fact-power uses ALL paths to ground.
Steelcores around powerlines-Fact-as long as you do not violate your limits of approach for conductive equipment you will be fine.
What is conductive?-Fact-Unless it carries a valid di-electric test sticker, it is conductive, end of story, never mind the tales.
Re: RBTree mouthing off- "I am not a certified line clearance worker" quote. Nuff said.


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## rahtreelimbs

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn: 


Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!


Back on the Spurs vs. no spurs!!!


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## rbtree

clearance said:


> Really now, listen up, I climb with spurs, and how do you climb with spurs? With a steelcore. of course, no need to be standing on branches like this poor fellow was. I am stuck into the main stem, I tie in to what I can see to come down, thats it. Now, answer this, all you ISA geniuses, how could this have happened if he had been climbing with spurs and steelcore?????


C'mon now, clearance, use your noggin. He obviously couldn't cut the branch while attached to the trunk, so he went out on it. I already stated what I think happened, which is that he needed to have a high tie, and work out on the limb. Whether he had spurs on or not is irrelevant. The branch most likely needed to be rigged, with a tip tie, overhead rope run through a pulley to allow for the branch to be lifted away from the primary which it most likely hung over.


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## clearance

Maybe so RB, I'm beat, its been a tough weekend for me.


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## ropensaddle

I have climbed a lot of hot trees and with spurs but
if it is hot to the point where lifting with a rope makes
contact or dropping does the same I will climb and get
above the limb and prune it clear with a good rated pruner
with a clean dry pull cord then hinge it or rope it!
If you are above the point of contact most of the current
will pass below you as it takes the easiest path to ground.
I have felt indirect contact several times, as back then they 
waited way too long to trim and every tree was smoking.
The wind blows you feel it but not usually enough to panic!
I say usually because once some one stole the grounds
for copper and I got in a spot was not even ten foot off 
the ground and everything I touched shocked me, it sucked
had to holler for a pruner and problem solved was a bad
day. After that day I made it a point in burning areas to
check grounds on poles !


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> I have climbed a lot of hot trees and with spurs but
> if it is hot to the point where lifting with a rope makes
> contact or dropping does the same I will climb and get
> above the limb and prune it clear with a good rated pruner
> with a clean dry pull cord then hinge it or rope it!



Please explain what you mean by the term "hot" tree.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Paths to ground that power uses-Fact-power uses ALL paths to ground.
> Steelcores around powerlines-Fact-as long as you do not violate your limits of approach for conductive equipment you will be fine.
> What is conductive?-Fact-Unless it carries a valid di-electric test sticker, it is conductive, end of story, never mind the tales.
> Re: RBTree mouthing off- "I am not a certified line clearance worker" quote. Nuff said.


Fact yes current takes any path but make no mistake
If you are in direct path approach distance doesn't mean your safe
I have more time spent than anyone I know not bragging at all just
worked and done all the burners for too many years. Fact if you
are on the limb above the burning limb you will feel less current
if any at all because the burning limb is the path to ground and you 
are out of its path I hope this helped you I do not mean anything but help!


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Please explain what you mean by the term "hot" tree.


A hot tree come on I know you Know that !


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Fact yes current takes any path but make no mistake
> If you are in direct path approach distance doesn't mean your safe
> I have more time spent than anyone I know not bragging at all just
> worked and done all the burners for too many years. Fact if you
> are on the limb above the burning limb you will feel less current
> if any at all because the burning limb is the path to ground and you
> are out of its path I hope this helped you I do not mean anything but help!



That is what I was afraid of, climbing a tree with the primary touching it. Full on retarded, full on lunacy. Feel less current? You are insane. Trees touching need a line kill, that is denergized and grounded. Or if you can do it from an insulated bucket truck. Please tell me you are joking around. Anyone else here, for real now, if its touching or even close, (like within 3' of a 12kv line for example) do not climb it.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> That is what I was afraid of, climbing a tree with the primary touching it. Full on retarded, full on lunacy. Feel less current? You are insane. Trees touching need a line kill, that is denergized and grounded. Or if you can do it from an insulated bucket truck. Please tell me you are joking around. Anyone else here, for real now, if its touching or even close, (like within 3' of a 12kv line for example) do not climb it.


Clearance you are a hoot
as back then they would laugh you off the job if you refused to do your job, a hot tree is one that has been burning not touching but can be safely trimmed! I have more experience in my left pinky than You will obtain and even though shutting power down would be safer, it will not be done as customers being out of power for days not gonna happen. Getting a bucket on the sides of mountains not possible!


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## ropensaddle

You missed the point anyway of staying out of the path of least resistance


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> That is what I was afraid of, climbing a tree with the primary touching it. Full on retarded, full on lunacy. Feel less current? You are insane. Trees touching need a line kill, that is denergized and grounded. Or if you can do it from an insulated bucket truck. Please tell me you are joking around. Anyone else here, for real now, if its touching or even close, (like within 3' of a 12kv line for example) do not climb it.



The less current part is put there as it is possible but
I have never felt anything when I was above the burning
limb and by burning I don't mean at the time just to clear it up!
I have pulled fifteen foot over hang one foot in diameter and 
near minimum approach distance I don't recommend it but a
seasoned line clearance pro can do it! I am sorry if you are not.


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Clearance you are a hoot
> as back then they would laugh you off the job if you refused to do your job, a hot tree is one that has been burning not touching but can be safely trimmed! I have more experience in my left pinky than You will obtain and even though shutting power down would be safer, it will not be done as customers being out of power for days not gonna happen. Getting a bucket on the sides of mountains not possible!



Burning not touching, so it has burned away, if under the primary or above it, only inches away. Do you even know the meaning of the phrase "limit of approach"? I think not. Laughed of the job, ok, anyone who asked you to climb those kind of trees would be disciplined and thier company possibly fined, here, anyways. Customers without power for days? Why? I had four line kills on the last contract I was working on, in a month. No big deal, no more than a few hours for the worst one and about 15 minutes for the easiest one. More experience in your left pinky, don't you mean finger, Liberace has pinkies. I wonder about you, but then you are going to heaven if you get cooked, so its all good. For anyone else out there, be smart, educate yourself.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Burning not touching, so it has burned away, if under the primary or above it, only inches away. Do you even know the meaning of the phrase "limit of approach"? I think not. Laughed of the job, ok, anyone who asked you to climb those kind of trees would be disciplined and thier company possibly fined, here, anyways. Customers without power for days? Why? I had four line kills on the last contract I was working on, in a month. No big deal, no more than a few hours for the worst one and about 15 minutes for the easiest one. More experience in your left pinky, don't you mean finger, Liberace has pinkies. I wonder about you, but then you are going to heaven if you get cooked, so its all good. For anyone else out there, be smart, educate yourself.


clear again so maybe you can understand miles of line not one little tree or is that too much for you to understand? The term we used was minimum separation means the same I ask you do you know? I know you have a job and understanding of power but limited experience I do hope you stick with the place you work as you could not handle real clearance with a know it all attitude. I hope the best for you and was just trying to get you to understand that being above has a definate advantage if a contact with a limb does occur as it keeps you out of the path of least resistance! Again best wishes on your job and I have no hate of line clearance personal so be safe!


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## ropensaddle

I suppose you think approach is the limb?
It means not getting your body closer than
the minimum separation of the specified voltage!
Also If you can safely perform work at a greater
distance it is desired are you quizzing or do you
actually think minimum approach means the tree branch
can't be closer than specified distance? Heck, dern near every
tree we trimmed was you had better stay at the candy
factory cause you would not make it here! I am not saying
it would not be better to have power isolated it is
just not necessary unless tree is actually on line
now that would be different as in uprooted and on the
line yeah you would be suicidal to climb that but that
is nowhere near anything I have said. Another time an isolation
may be necessary is if the trunk was within the limits in
that it put the climber closer than the minimum separation!
I think you are mistaken or uninformed on this topic.


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## clearance

Limits of appraoch are the relationship between the primary and you, the tools you are using and the vegetations proximety to that line. I am not familiar with the voltages you work around, here it ranges from 12 to 500kv, the limits of appraoch for each voltage varies. We use three tables A, B and C. A is for a tested and insulated tool, B is your body, uninsulated tools and vegetation, C is for uncertified workers. On a 12kv line this table is like this A-1', B-3', C-10'. So, if the branches are closer than 3' to the primary, it cannot be climbed, you could however reach over from another tree with a tested pole pruner. As the voltage increases, so do the limits, example, a 60kv line, A-3', B-5', C-10'. What sort of rules or standards do you use in your area?


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Limits of appraoch are the relationship between the primary and you, the tools you are using and the vegetations proximety to that line. I am not familiar with the voltages you work around, here it ranges from 12 to 500kv, the limits of appraoch for each voltage varies. We use three tables A, B and C. A is for a tested and insulated tool, B is your body, uninsulated tools and vegetation, C is for uncertified workers. On a 12kv line this table is like this A-1', B-3', C-10'. So, if the branches are closer than 3' to the primary, it cannot be climbed, you could however reach over from another tree with a tested pole pruner. As the voltage increases, so do the limits, example, a 60kv line, A-3', B-5', C-10'. What sort of rules or standards do you use in your area?



They are similar however the vegetation is not in the picture you
and conductive tools is the separation factor what we usually would
do is prune it away from the ground first with a rated pruner in them
days they were wooden have since used hotstick with blade mount
better no splinters kind of a peta pruning that many extensions but
safer than climbing and then pruning but that can be done safe also
especially if the winds not blowing. I would some times throw a rope
up to the crown and tie it with bowline and then pull tree and tie off
to create bigger gap but usually not necessary. The wind blows and line 
burns limb away usually a foot or better so 3 inch would be hard to 
imagine on any distribution line. Lines higher than distribution running
with static instead of ground are a different story transmission are
different as no ground and static build up can cause arc at great distance.
Path to ground you still have not fully understood that even though you
just mentioned one way of avoiding it by climbing a different tree to 
work from, and yes, I have done that as well there are many safe methods 
accomplishing safe line clearance. Staying out of the path of least 
resistance is one of the most important things to learn as a clearance tech
as not in the path not shocked.


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> They are similar however the vegetation is not in the picture you
> and conductive tools is the separation factor what we usually would
> do is prune it away from the ground first with a rated pruner in them
> days they were wooden have since used hotstick with blade mount
> better no splinters kind of a peta pruning that many extensions but
> safer than climbing and then pruning but that can be done safe also
> especially if the winds not blowing. I would some times throw a rope
> up to the crown and tie it with bowline and then pull tree and tie off
> to create bigger gap but usually not necessary. The wind blows and line
> burns limb away usually a foot or better so 3 inch would be hard to
> imagine on any distribution line. Lines higher than distribution running
> with static instead of ground are a different story transmission are
> different as no ground and static build up can cause arc at great distance.
> path to ground you still have not fully understood that even though you
> just mentioned one way of avoiding it by climbing a different tree to
> work from, and yes, I have done that as well there are many safe methods
> accomplishing safe line clearance. Staying out of the path of least
> resistance is one of the most important things to learn as a clearance tech
> as not in the path not shocked.



1' away aint 3' away and the tree can move closer because of the wind and body wieght. So, no thanks. You keep saying I don't understand, but your misunderstanding or ignorance in regards to how power gets to ground is shocking (ha, ha). Power takes all paths to ground, not just the easiest. "Vegetation is not in the picture" for you, I guess, not for me, seeing how it is conductive and all. You speak with confidence in quite a condescending manner, just what are your qualifications to speak to this subject?


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## ropensaddle

One more time as you still don't get it miles of burning line
not a tree here or there miles so If you climb another tree to work
from It is just as bad most times, but we use the safest option
we have. We have a billion times more lines and they don't get
trimmed soon enough even with giraffe's we stay behind especially
in manual only areas where no equipment can get to, where I was
a foreman many years with not one accident other than scratches.
The thing I learned that protected me in that was not to be in the
path of least resistance. Transmission was very different and vegetation
proximity a bigger factor due to arc but at least those lines were not 
allowed to get close and was mainly setting ropes and felling and it
was fun huge trees fell to prevent passing within fifteen feet or hitting
on a 500 kv line in Michigan.,


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> 1' away aint 3' away and the tree can move closer because of the wind and body wieght. So, no thanks. You keep saying I don't understand, but your misunderstanding or ignorance in regards to how power gets to ground is shocking (ha, ha). Power takes all paths to ground, not just the easiest. "Vegetation is not in the picture" for you, I guess, not for me, seeing how it is conductive and all. You speak with confidence in quite a condescending manner, just what are your qualifications to speak to this subject?


Is that claire I am sorry but turning off a town for a week
was not an option where I worked you keep reading them books boy and
maybe some day no one will have power
Ok you say I am ignorant on how power gets to ground
and that it takes all paths the thing you are not
getting is the one it takes is going to be the easiest
so if the limb your standing on is energized you are in the
path of least resistance and experiencing indirect contact!
I have been a foreman for line clearance for over twenty years
and yes I still learn the last 13 were as a danger tree expert
for the local coop removing danger trees dead burning and
anything that was problematic. I run a manual crew before that
never me or anyone under me accident numerous safety awards


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> Is that claire I am sorry but turning off a town for a week
> was not an option where I worked you keep reading them books boy and
> maybe some day no one will have power



I said in an earlier post about the contract I just finished working on, four line kills, the longest being a few hours. Your comprehension is on par with your understanding of electrical safety. "We have a billion times more lines", not so good at math either. Does your state have transmission lines that run for over 500 miles?, we do. "The path of least resistance" Good Lord.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> I said in an earlier post about the contract I just finished working on, four line kills, the longest being a few hours. Your comprehension is on par with your understanding of electrical safety. "We have a billion times more lines", not so good at math either. Does your state have transmission lines that run for over 500 miles?, we do. "The path of least resistance" Good Lord.


Like I said earlier that would not be an option
on miles of burning line can you trim miles in two hours I don,t think so, and I was talking nation wide One coop has 500 miles of transmission so keep that in mind and my understanding of electrical safety has kept me and all working around me safe with awards to prove it.


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## ropensaddle

clearance question if you are on a limb above the limb you are taking
out and the limb under the limb you are on becomes energized do you think you will be shocked?


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## clearance

Don't even speak of burning trees on transmission lines. Miles of burning on distribution? Here it only the rare tree, maybe one in a thousand. Your utility must be incredibly incompetent and criminally negligent for there to be "miles of burning line". I have trimmed and removed burners out of the bucket, or climbed them with a line kill, thats the rules here, thats what I do. This climbing burning trees B.S. makes the arguements over one-handing and one tie in seem pretty small. I would like to hear from a lineman about this, I just know electrical safety in regards to treework.


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## clearance

ropensaddle said:


> clearance question if you are on a limb above the limb you are taking
> out and the limb under the limb you are on becomes energized do you think you will be shocked?


Its not good enough to "think", you have to know. Electricity is a strange and powerfull beast, best not mess with it. Some people have been killed by 120 volts, others have survived flash overs from 230 000 volts. Be safe, be smart, follow the rules and you will be o.k. My answer is maybe, not good enough, kind of like, if you are shot in the shoulder with a 9mm, will you survive? Probably you will, care to find out?


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Don't even speak of burning trees on transmission lines. Miles of burning on distribution? Here it only the rare tree, maybe one in a thousand. Your utility must be incredibly incompetent and criminally negligent for there to be "miles of burning line". I have trimmed and removed burners out of the bucket, or climbed them with a line kill, thats the rules here, thats what I do. This climbing burning trees B.S. makes the arguements over one-handing and one tie in seem pretty small. I would like to hear from a lineman about this, I just know electrical safety in regards to treework.


This was back in the eighties and still some lines that way but I think If shutting the power off and grounding is the way you do clearance you will be safe the problem is no one wants to climb and these lines get skipped and then someone highly trained has to come in and trim but back in early 80s it was skipped due to economy issues they let the lines get bad due to not enough funds jobs were scarce in them days. I would have loved to
see grounded lines but it was not an option if they will kill for ya go for it!


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> Its not good enough to "think", you have to know. Electricity is a strange and powerfull beast, best not mess with it. Some people have been killed by 120 volts, others have survived flash overs from 230 000 volts. Be safe, be smart, follow the rules and you will be o.k. My answer is maybe, not good enough, kind of like, if you are shot in the shoulder with a 9mm, will you survive? Probably you will, care to find out?


Well I do agree it is strange but will take the path of least resistance
to ground you are above the path and out of the current however
rain would be different and windy days we kept for the berry trees even
though they were few. clearance for the most part you are knowledgeable
and have good ideas especially for new guy's you are probably one of the
best climbers in your area at line clearance. I am not trying to put you down and even side with you on some things, spurs being one of them! However I tried not to use them in yards but some climbers really make a tree look bad the way they spur and others can be gentle.


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## clearance

Hey Rope, you take it easy and take care of yourself, look up and live.
Cheers, Jim


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## lxt

ropensaddle, I know exactly what you are talking about!!! I remember climbing up between the phases after putting a pull rope on the nuetral & hot(2 different ropes of course) to seperate them so I could get above the wires & blow the top out over them(usually the nuetral side) 

A LINE KILL!!!! man I wish I could of got one of those, back when rope was talking late 80`s if you didnt do it......GO HOME! of course this was distribution 4kv, the joke was it will only bite ya!!!

clearance, I totally agree with you on how it should be done, however realistically that dont always happen, depends on the utility inspector!!!

Take Care, Be Safe

LXT............


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## 046

many thanks for this important lesson and the importance of not becoming part of path of least resistance!



ropensaddle; said:


> Is that claire I am sorry but turning off a town for a week
> was not an option where I worked you keep reading them books boy and
> maybe some day no one will have power
> Ok you say I am ignorant on how power gets to ground
> and that it takes all paths the thing you are not
> getting is the one it takes is going to be the easiest
> so if the limb your standing on is energized you are in the
> path of least resistance and experiencing indirect contact!
> I have been a foreman for line clearance for over twenty years
> and yes I still learn the last 13 were as a danger tree expert
> for the local coop removing danger trees dead burning and
> anything that was problematic. I run a manual crew before that
> never me or anyone under me accident numerous safety awards


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## arborterra

Wow, What a topic. Spurs or no spurs. I'm with rope on the real world of line clearance. It wasn't just back then. If it takes spurs to make it safer, do it. It is always sad to see a person injured. Yes I have climbed more burning trees than I could ever keep track of. Fire flying, burning. With & without spikes. There is the infinate variable syndrome to be dealt with in any tree work. We must pay atention, be alert and be careful at all times. Decisions must be made based on knowledge and experience. What worked in one situation won't necessarily work in another. They tell you what M.A.D. is but when you go to work it is avoid contact or zero. Whatever works. If you make a mistake they have documentation that you knew better and it was against policy. Butts are covered and life goes on. Sad, but that is the line clearance that I know.


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## clearance

This burning stuff trips me out, here we say "the tree is burning, I need a line kill" . If the tree is close enough that its burned, forget it. So true what Arborterra says about utility work, they want it done as cheaply as possible, they will blame the guy doing the work if something goes wrong right away, and they will mouth off about how much they care. They-utility.


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## clearance

TreeCo said:


> Clearance things must be different where you are because down here in Georgia we have a lot trees that are being 'burnt back' from the power lines.
> 
> I just had the utility do a trim on one of mine that touched the lines when the wind blew. The power was not cut off to do the work. I believe the voltage is 14kv. There were several 3 to 4 foot limbs in a pecan that were all black and had dead leaves from contact. With no wind these limbs were within 12 inches of the line.



We can trim anything from an insulated bucket, as in 1/4" away from the line. But you can grab the primary with your hand from the bucket, its insulated, the tree isn't, ever. Thats why we don't climb that stuff, talk about rolling the dice.......


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## ropensaddle

A little off topic but utility sucks for other reasons
production requirements,nepotism,chiggars,ticks,
and pay. I just gave it up this last year as my biz
was going well enough to tell the purty boy fu!
He got a position over me had half my experience
but was nephew of the one that retired and handed 
him his silver spoon! I have hoof and mouth and I
almost went fist city but decided to just quit.
That has been the case with every utility I
have worked for not what you know or how well
you do your job it was how well you got to knees
I do that for no man. It was funny my last week
all the azz kissers bucking for my job were too
funny.


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## ropensaddle

clearance said:


> We can trim anything from an insulated bucket, as in 1/4" away from the line. But you can grab the primary with your hand from the bucket, its insulated, the tree isn't, ever. Thats why we don't climb that stuff, talk about rolling the dice.......



Grabbing a primary is worse than climbing a close tree
a bird nest could make your day yes they are insulated
tested once a year if you are lucky but a bird can ruin
your day over the weekend. Also beware of thinking you 
are safe phaze to phaze on a branch or phaze to ground
neutral will light you up!


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## Ekka

MrRecurve said:


> What does being spikeless have to do with anything? I'm confused.
> 
> "If Jim had climbed higher and crotched his rope at a better angle relative to his work position, when the limb snapped Jim would have fallen down into the saddle rather than back into the electric line"
> 
> If Jimbo had set a proper high point to work from, his weight wouldnt have been 100% on the limb and it most likely wouldnt have broken.
> 
> How would spikes benefit this situation?



For the record, MrRecurve also fell from a palm clean he was working on, climbing SPIKELESS.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=47051


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## userdude

clearance said:


> You mutts would be electrocuted doing utility, its about safety and keeping the power on, the trees come third, where they belong. Guy was almost killed climbing the "proper way", great, bet he wishes he had been a "hack".



 Soooo damn true, especially the part about being electrocuted


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## ronnyb

Clearance- it must be a different world in Canada, because what Rope is saying is the norm here in the states. I worked line clearance for 7 years and never had a line killed or dropped. Never. Plenty of trees growing 15 feet plus through the phases. Got shocked many times, matter of fact everyone I worked with would get it a couple of times a year. The worst I got was from indirect contact off of a 24.9kv line. The leaves were touching me, it looked like I had been stung by bees. Moved on from line clearance, worked residential, got a degree, certified arborist, and now own my own company.


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## John Paul Sanborn

Ronny, where in the MKE metro area are you working? 

I work all over the area with several different companies, I'll be up in the North Shore with Jerry Smith today.


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## ronnyb

We work primarily in Wauwatosa, New Berlin, Brookfield, Elm Grove. West side of town, some on the north side.


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## John Paul Sanborn

*Hi Ronny*

Do you go to the WAA/DNR shindig in Greenbay? I've not missed one for near 10 years.


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