# could've been done in half the time...



## forestryworks (Jul 7, 2008)

...with a longer bar... after all, it is a 372

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h710OWVVeqI&feature=related


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## .aspx (Jul 7, 2008)

It looked like he bore-cut that. Was that necessary? I would think no.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 7, 2008)

What a joke. Throw those platic wedges in the garbage where they belong.


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## .aspx (Jul 7, 2008)

There's an awesome video floating around the interwebs where a guy hammers in some magnesium-alloy wedge and then proceeds with the cutting.


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## redprospector (Jul 7, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What a joke. Throw those platic wedges in the garbage where they belong.



Nothing wrong with plastic wedges, he just needed a little bigger axe to drive it with.
Plastic wedges are great once you learn how to use them. Problem is, people just want to say they're junk instead of taking time to learn anything.

Andy


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## .aspx (Jul 7, 2008)

plastic wedges are fine with me


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## Zackman1801 (Jul 8, 2008)

yeah try getting a tree with 5 feet of back lean to go where you want without a wedge. lol hope the homeowner has insurance!


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## rbtree (Jul 8, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What a joke. Throw those platic wedges in the garbage where they belong.



say what, nails? 

Methinx you might consider piping down and learning a bit....while you're still young.


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## forestryworks (Jul 8, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What a joke. Throw those platic wedges in the garbage where they belong.



it's not he who laughs loudest, but he who laughs last... 
and the old timers
will always have the last laugh.

and for what it's worth, i get the hardwoods down 
just fine with plastic wedges


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## mile9socounty (Jul 8, 2008)

The plunge cut might not have been needed. But everyone is different and do things differently. I have no problems using plastic wedges. If the break, oh well. I will always find more of them when I'm out beating the brush watching the planting crews. If it comes down to it. I would have just b:censored:stered cut it. :monkey:


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## tomtrees58 (Jul 8, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What a joke. Throw those plastic wedges in the garbage where they belong.



year a reel tree cutter plastic wedges are excellent tom trees


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## Husky137 (Jul 8, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Nothing wrong with plastic wedges, he just needed a little bigger axe to drive it with.
> Plastic wedges are great once you learn how to use them. Problem is, people just want to say they're junk instead of taking time to learn anything.
> 
> Andy



A bigger axe/hammer and more than one wedge. He waited to long to get the wedge started as well. 

A waste of time with a bore cut on that one. What he lacked in experience he made up for in the PPE ballistic armor department.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 8, 2008)

All right guys, my old man has 35 years experience and doesn't use plastic. I have some and they don't even compare to steel for most of what I do. It is my opinion, sorry if I don't ride on your bandwagon.

What's this about learning how to use a plastic wedge? It's a wedge, you put it in the kerf, hit it accurately, use at least two side by side to work against the other, stack if you have too. If I am missing some special technique let me know.


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## rbtree (Jul 8, 2008)

You might want to go to the Madsen's and Bailey's websites. These are the two largest logging supply houses, probably in the world. Note the numbers of different wedges they use....styles, shapes, materials.....

Your old man is a timber faller, huh?

Ya'll might want to come out west, and see how the big boys fell real timber.....doubt you'll see a one of them packing steel into the woods....a few might have a couple magnesium wedges.....or a hardhead plastic......


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## ropensaddle (Jul 8, 2008)

Zackman1801 said:


> yeah try getting a tree with 5 feet of back lean to go where you want without a wedge. lol hope the homeowner has insurance!



Ehhh my 200000 lb winch will make a wedge look like a joke.
I do have steel and plastic and use them both but not for
felling around expensive objects my winch performs that.


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## 2dogs (Jul 8, 2008)

ropensaddle said:


> Ehhh my 200000 lb winch will make a wedge look like a joke.
> I do have steel and plastic and use them both but not for
> felling around expensive objects my winch performs that.



Please show us a pic of your twohundred thousand pound line pull winch and the aircraft carrier it is mounted to.  

Not everyone here can climb trees to set the rope at the correct height in a tree. Not everyone can drive up to each tree. Out here in the west we have steep hills and not every tree on flat ground has a road near it.


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## motoroilmccall (Jul 8, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Please show us a pic of your twohundred thousand pound line pull winch and the aircraft carrier it is mounted to.
> 
> Not everyone here can climb trees to set the rope at the correct height in a tree. Not everyone can drive up to each tree. Out here in the west we have steep hills and not every tree on flat ground has a road near it.



Thats where a Lewis Winch comes in handy. Just gotta make sure to get the line high enough, and not to drop the tree on the winch, and the operator!!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 8, 2008)

rbtree said:


> You might want to go to the Madsen's and Bailey's websites. These are the two largest logging supply houses, probably in the world. Note the numbers of different wedges they use....styles, shapes, materials.....
> 
> Your old man is a timber faller, huh?
> 
> Ya'll might want to come out west, and see how the big boys fell real timber.....doubt you'll see a one of them packing steel into the woods....a few might have a couple magnesium wedges.....or a hardhead plastic......




He used to be. He still does quite a bit of it among other things. Out west doesn't directly apply where I'm at. There are many differences.

Answer me this, granted I can get my wedges from tree to tree and I don't hit them with the saw, what advantage does the plastic wedge have?


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## .aspx (Jul 8, 2008)

_granted I can get my wedges from tree to tree_

If you aren't able to get your wedges from tree to tree you shouldn't be hauling any gear to begin with.


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Out west doesn't directly apply where I'm at. There are many differences.



No, not really. There are young guy's everywhere who won't listen. 

Andy


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## b1rdman (Jul 8, 2008)

.aspx said:


> _granted I can get my wedges from tree to tree_
> 
> If you aren't able to get your wedges from tree to tree you shouldn't be hauling any gear to begin with.



I think you misread his post.

I use plastic and steel (mostly steel). I'll pick up the plastic when weight or proximity to the saw dictates but 9 out of 10 times I grab steel wedges.

I'm open to learning more too so the question remains unanswered.

What advantage does the plastic wedge have?


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## ropensaddle (Jul 8, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> I think you misread his post.
> 
> I use plastic and steel (mostly steel). I'll pick up the plastic when weight or proximity to the saw dictates but 9 out of 10 times I grab steel wedges.
> 
> ...



You already mentioned their main advantage close to chain
plastic comes out and ease of carrying in the woods. I drill
mine out and put a rope and snap so you can snap to your saddle
or belt loop for woods cutting!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah Rope, I do the same on mine for up in the tree.

Aside from the BS, I am still waiting for an answer.


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## slowp (Jul 8, 2008)

The advantage of the plastic wedge is...if you do happen to saw it, it isn't going to wreck your chain. I have chewed up quite a few over the winter. I use them for bucking. I use them frequently. Keeps the saw from getting stuck. Or gets it out after getting stuck. Whatever. Don't leave home without them.


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

Ok, all BS aside.
A minimum of 3 wedges should be on the person (not in your pack, or in the truck, or at home in the shed), along with a minimum 3 lb. axe. If you don't carry them in a wedge pouch, or pocket you will spend more time hunting them down than you do cutting trees. 
Now since you're carrying those bigass splitting wedges you might get away with 2. 
If everything else is equal, I am carrying about a pound of wedges, You are carrying 10 pounds of wedges. That's only a 9 pound difference if you're driving your bigass splitting wedges with a 3 pound axe, which I doubt. You're probably driving them with at least a 6 pound maul, or sledge. That puts you carrying 12 pounds more than me. Some of the strips I've cut, I had to hike a mile or more to get to them because the roads weren't built yet. After felling, limbing, and bucking to length 75 to 150 trees (depending on the size of trees) I'd be willing to bet that extra 12 pounds would have your butt getting home about an hour after the rest of you got there. 

The taper on plastic wedges is far easier to lift a tree with (can you say leverage?). The taper on a bigass splitting wedge is made to break wood apart. You can drive a 10 penny nail with an 8 lb. sledge, but that doesn't make it the right tool for the job.

Another place plastic wedges shine is if you hit one with the saw you're not dead in the water. I think you said you haven't hit a wedge with a saw........Keep cutting, you will.
I've heard some people say they don't like plastic wedges because they break. That's like saying I don't like nails because they bend when I hit them. Learn how to hit them straight.:bang: 

I've got some old steel felling wedges that I found on a sale, they're hanging on the wall where they belong, and they are a slim taper like the new plastic ones, maybe slimmer. The last time that area was logged was in the 30's

This is only a couple of reasons that plastic wedges are better than steel splitting wedges for felling timber. Yes, they may apply mostly in the west. So if you're just fiddle-farting around cutting a few trees a day, then by all means use your bigass splitting wedges, and drive them with a monster maul if you want too. Maybe you'll break off a hinge lifting that hard that fast. I just hope it don't squash you.

Andy


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## abohac (Jul 8, 2008)

rbtree said:


> You might want to go to the Madsen's and Bailey's websites. These are the two largest logging supply houses, probably in the world. Note the numbers of different wedges they use....styles, shapes, materials.....
> 
> Your old man is a timber faller, huh?
> 
> Ya'll might want to come out west, and see how the big boys fell real timber.....doubt you'll see a one of them packing steel into the woods....a few might have a couple magnesium wedges.....or a hardhead plastic......


Don't want to pipe in and be a smart#$%@^ but do you guys ever cut anything bigger than those telephone poles on the axmen show? I saw some big timber cut in Alaska but nothing really very big on that show. And, I am really trying to learn something here becasue I have never been to Wash or Oregon.


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## abohac (Jul 8, 2008)

forestryworks said:


> ...with a longer bar... after all, it is a 372
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h710OWVVeqI&feature=related



Got a lot of neat stuff he carries around with him though! Got some nice duds too!


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## b1rdman (Jul 8, 2008)

slowp said:


> The advantage of the plastic wedge is...if you do happen to saw it, it isn't going to wreck your chain. I have chewed up quite a few over the winter. I use them for bucking. I use them frequently. Keeps the saw from getting stuck. Or gets it out after getting stuck. Whatever. Don't leave home without them.



I'm with you on that!

I always have one or two in my back pocket when bucking.


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## b1rdman (Jul 8, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Ok, all BS aside.
> A minimum of 3 wedges should be on the person (not in your pack, or in the truck, or at home in the shed), along with a minimum 3 lb. axe. If you don't carry them in a wedge pouch, or pocket you will spend more time hunting them down than you do cutting trees.
> Now since you're carrying those bigass splitting wedges you might get away with 2.
> If everything else is equal, I am carrying about a pound of wedges, You are carrying 10 pounds of wedges. That's only a 9 pound difference if you're driving your bigass splitting wedges with a 3 pound axe, which I doubt. You're probably driving them with at least a 6 pound maul, or sledge. That puts you carrying 12 pounds more than me. Some of the strips I've cut, I had to hike a mile or more to get to them because the roads weren't built yet. After felling, limbing, and bucking to length 75 to 150 trees (depending on the size of trees) I'd be willing to bet that extra 12 pounds would have your butt getting home about an hour after the rest of you got there.
> ...



Sure it's easier but doesn't the slimmer profile of a plastic wedge translate into less lift? Thus less leverage?


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> Sure it's easier but doesn't the slimmer profile of a plastic wedge translate into less lift? Thus less leverage?



Nope.
Let's say we have a 10' bar to lift a heavy object, if we put the fulcrum 5' from the object we will get a lot of lift, but little leverage. Now let's move the fulcrum in to 1' from the object, we don't get as much lift but we have a lot of leverage.
Which one is easier to drive? The splitting wedge, or the felling wedge? If it's easier to lift the same object you have more leverage.
With a thicker (splitting) wedge you have less leverage, possibly lifting the tree too hard (using a heavier driver to make up for loss of leverage), and in certain circumstances can break the hinge.

Andy


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## b1rdman (Jul 8, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Nope.
> Let's say we have a 10' bar to lift a heavy object, if we put the fulcrum 5' from the object we will get a lot of lift, but little leverage. Now let's move the fulcrum in to 1' from the object, we don't get as much lift but we have a lot of leverage.
> Which one is easier to drive? The splitting wedge, or the felling wedge? If it's easier to lift the same object you have more leverage.
> 
> Andy



Interesting.

I sure wish I didn't mow the lawn tonight because I always have a couple cold ones while mowing. I'm sure this would be crystal clear on any other night.


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I sure wish I didn't mow the lawn tonight because I always have a couple cold ones while mowing. I'm sure this would be crystal clear on any other night.



Clear as mud huh? 

Andy


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## b1rdman (Jul 8, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Clear as mud huh?
> 
> Andy



naw... I got it now, but you'll have to excuse me. 

I'm on vacation!


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

b1rdman said:


> I'm on vacation!



What? You lucky dog. The last time I had one of those was when I ran out of work.

Andy


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## Zodiac45 (Jul 8, 2008)

Plastic's the best way to go. They are high tech as wedges go. They have grips (like large rasp teeth) on the bottom to help them hold( not squirt out)We have what they call hardheads which are plastic with metal beating ends, but no one uses steel wedges any more. I usually have 3 with me, an 8 , 10 and 12". 
And yep Birdman less lift (over a longer length) translates into more leverage. Think of it as a ratio/lower gear.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 8, 2008)

Plastic wedges may have more leverage in principle, but not in my real world experience because they just don't drive like steel ones. Thus, my original joke about throwing them out, that guy really wacked away with that old hatchet.

Keep in mind now, I am speaking in terms of eastern hardwood not western softwood. Plastic wedges do not fair well with those nasty, old, crooked, limby, unbalanced, hardwood trees. They need a lot of lift especially when going opposite the lean. Put a couple steel wedges in with a 8lb maul and you don't need to stack can drive them in with good lift and no wedge damage. With trees 20" and up (this is where they shine) you usually don't have to worry much about contacting the wedge. You don't have to pound it in as far to get the same lift. Next best thing to a tree jack in my opinion.

For bucking I will agree that plastics work great. Placing a wedge above the saw to hold open the kerf. I also use them when climbing to hold the kerf.

I am not trying to re-educate the western cutters, there are many different variables and if I were in their shoes I would be doing it the same way they are. I am simply stating the virtues of steel wedges that I have found and deem valueable for my use in my area.

As far as playing me off as a young punk that doesn't listen, that is simply not true. There are different sides to the debate, both having meritt in their applications. 

Logging is a big business in Wisconsin and there are many pro's in my area. Though processors have taken the place of many a faller.


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## abohac (Jul 8, 2008)

I can settle this. If you like plastic use 'em. If you like steel, use 'em. If you like a big ax then use that. If you like a small ax, use that. Wow. I think I'll become a therapist (Dr. Phil better watch out)


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## ropensaddle (Jul 8, 2008)

abohac said:


> I can settle this. If you like plastic use 'em. If you like steel, use 'em. If you like a big ax then use that. If you like a small ax, use that. Wow. I think I'll become a therapist (Dr. Phil better watch out)



If you do I will winch ya out of the hole bud


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## redprospector (Jul 8, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Plastic wedges may have more leverage in principle, but not in my real world experience because they just don't drive like steel ones. Thus, my original joke about throwing them out, that guy really wacked away with that old hatchet.
> 
> Keep in mind now, I am speaking in terms of eastern hardwood not western softwood. Plastic wedges do not fair well with those nasty, old, crooked, limby, unbalanced, hardwood trees. They need a lot of lift especially when going opposite the lean. Put a couple steel wedges in with a 8lb maul and you don't need to stack can drive them in with good lift and no wedge damage. With trees 20" and up (this is where they shine) you usually don't have to worry much about contacting the wedge. You don't have to pound it in as far to get the same lift. Next best thing to a tree jack in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Whatever floats your boat.
If I remember right, I cut a hardwood tree east of the center line of the US once. Physics, are Physics reguardless of which side of the country your on.
I didn't mean to say you don't listen. I've heard that our brains have a capacity, and that when you reach that capacity you just can't learn something else without forgetting something to make room for it. You obviously are at that capacity. 
Personally I'm not that smart yet. But I am smart enough to know when I'm wasting my time. 
Have fun, and don't get squashed.

Andy


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## Fuzly (Jul 8, 2008)

Nails,

You just have to understand we are tougher in Wisconsin and can swing that 8 pounder no problem to put those steel wedges in. In many areas there is a condition called weaktititis, which makes swinging a sledge too dificult. 

Really though, the only person I see out in the woods with plastic wedges is, well, me. That's about it, cause I like trying stuff out, and I had a guy show me how to use them. (Bigger the better BTW)

Don't see anybody carrying an axe around either, a few guys carry a couple plastic wedges in their pocket, but they just cut a hardwood club if they need to pound 'em.

Don't know what the big deal is with the steel, I've seen it done too.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 8, 2008)

Fuzly said:


> Nails,
> 
> You just have to understand we are tougher in Wisconsin and can swing that 8 pounder no problem to put those steel wedges in. In many areas there is a condition called weaktititis, which makes swinging a sledge too dificult.
> 
> ...




Fuz, I have some shorter plastics for tree work, and 12 inchers for the woods the pouch/suspenders and the whole bit. Big pockets with the logger pants work good too. I do like the little grippers on the plastic wedges though I have never had a problem with steel comming out.


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## Husky137 (Jul 9, 2008)

It seems fairly obvious from the posts that this is not an eastern hardwoods vs. western softwoods argument, so you can give that up too. Stick to using the wrong tool for the job. Go ahead and use metal wedges, but at least use felling wedges instead of splitting wedges.


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## Fuzly (Jul 9, 2008)

abohac said:


> Don't want to pipe in and be a smart#$%@^ but do you guys ever cut anything bigger than those telephone poles on the axmen show? I saw some big timber cut in Alaska but nothing really very big on that show. And, I am really trying to learn something here becasue I have never been to Wash or Oregon.



+1

Once again, we get talking about something interesting, and you get "I'm from the PNW and we're the only place in the world with big trees so everybody else shut up and the Axe Men producers found the only loggers who aren't awesome and don't use flame shooting Stihls with laser beams and aren't cutting 500 foot tall trees all day blah blah blah"

They must get sore shoulders from patting themselves on the back all day.

I mean it's beautiful country, and I'm sure it's hard work, but it's not the only place in the world with big trees or logging.


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## 2dogs (Jul 9, 2008)

abohac said:


> Don't want to pipe in and be a smart#$%@^ but do you guys ever cut anything bigger than those telephone poles on the axmen show? I saw some big timber cut in Alaska but nothing really very big on that show. And, I am really trying to learn something here becasue I have never been to Wash or Oregon.



Too late! So you're saying on Axman that there were no big trees? I think you should go back and watch the show again.

It does not matter to a plastic wedge what we call the tree. Hardwood or softwood the wedge acts the same, that is it keeps the kerf open and allows the faller to drive the tree over. With a proper 1/3 face cut and a hinge the correct thickness and the back cut in the right place some trees need just a nudge to commit to the fall. Many don't any help at all. However when the tree to be dropped is taller than say 125' that plastic wedge has to be set early on and kept snug. The slightest wind will start the tree rocking and any wedge can fall out easily, not to mention one that is sharply taperd and is heavy steel. Plastic falling wedges are basic safety gear and should be just an arm's reach away every time you fall a tree


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## hammerlogging (Jul 9, 2008)

Cant help but chime in now. All I cut is big eastern hw, bigger than anything that grows in WI. I know cause I been there. 
Plastic is great, right tool for the job.


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## slowp (Jul 9, 2008)

Fuzly said:


> Nails,
> 
> You just have to understand we are tougher in Wisconsin and can swing that 8 pounder no problem to put those steel wedges in. In many areas there is a condition called weaktititis, which makes swinging a sledge too dificult.
> 
> ...




Hmmm. Where I lived in Wisconsin, the fallers carried books on tape in their pockets, airconditioners and heat in their processors, and seldom got out of them.  20 to 39% ground was considered steep. I carried a picture from out here to show what steep really is. Steep there is when the forwarder tips over on its side. 

When one outfit had to hand fall a tree, the grandpa did it.  I think he was the only one who knew how. He also was the one to run a skidder and pull line, while grandson ran the forwarder. Then there was the other extreme. One guy working falling trees, cutting them into 8 foot "sticks" and then bunching them BY HAND WITH A PICKAROON. I thought that a little bit mad since hydraulics have been invented to assist in moving logs. 

But if we had ticks like that here, I wouldn't want to get out of a nice cab either. Ticks....shudder   They have lyme disease there too. 
We only have meth heads and some kind of deadly bacteria moving down from B.C.


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## 2dogs (Jul 9, 2008)

slowp said:


> Hmmm. Where I lived in Wisconsin, the fallers carried books on tape in their pockets, airconditioners and heat in their processors, and seldom got out of them.  20 to 39% ground was considered steep. I carried a picture from out here to show what steep really is. Steep there is when the forwarder tips over on its side.
> 
> When one outfit had to hand fall a tree, the grandpa did it. I think he was the only one who knew how. He also was the one to run a skidder and pull line, while grandson ran the forwarder. Then there was the other extreme. One guy working falling trees, cutting them into 8 foot "sticks" and then bunching them BY HAND WITH A PICKAROON. I thought that a little bit mad since hydraulics have been invented to assist in moving logs.
> 
> ...




Plastic wedges are very good for smahing ticks. Bush lawyers are bad here in the spring but not this late in the summer. We are on the ground alot now due to all the new calves, but no ticks.


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## 2dogs (Jul 9, 2008)

There is also this wedge.

http://gear.sherrilltree.com/iwwida.pvx?;item?item_no=31963 1?comp=SHE


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## abohac (Jul 9, 2008)

2dogs said:


> Too late! So you're saying on Axman that there were no big trees? I think you should go back and watch the show again.
> 
> It does not matter to a plastic wedge what we call the tree. Hardwood or softwood the wedge acts the same, that is it keeps the kerf open and allows the faller to drive the tree over. With a proper 1/3 face cut and a hinge the correct thickness and the back cut in the right place some trees need just a nudge to commit to the fall. Many don't any help at all. However when the tree to be dropped is taller than say 125' that plastic wedge has to be set early on and kept snug. The slightest wind will start the tree rocking and any wedge can fall out easily, not to mention one that is sharply taperd and is heavy steel. Plastic falling wedges are basic safety gear and should be just an arm's reach away every time you fall a tree


I really don't know how to go back and watch again. Just staing what I saw> I probably missed most of the shows, but what I saw being cut should have been left for another 10 - 15 years so they could have made a log. However, different places do things differently and the more I can learn the better. And franlky, I really couldn't care less what kind of wedges anyone uses. I usually use the first one I can find (and yes I have some plastic ones and they seem to work OK).


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Jul 9, 2008)

I cut 30" northern hardwoods in michigans UP. I use plastic wedges and carry a light Ax. They work better then steel splitting wedges and are much lighter when you have to hike in a mile or so. When you hit them they just shread not destroy a chain. I have broken very few from hitting them, even when it is -30* outside... Guess steel wedges are a Wisconsin thing, hopefully it stays there.


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## slowp (Jul 9, 2008)

I should have snapped a picture, but it might seem weird so I didn't. One of the fallers today had a very colorful assortment of wedges on his belt. It was very bright and cheery...yellow, orange, pink and orange. He was packing 4.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 9, 2008)

30" is big hardwood. And before its mentioned, yes, WI can grow some nice timber. But it sure takes a lot longer, but that ain't our problem eh, they all fall the same.

Steel wedges might be a better ice scraper, . I try to not have to do that in the first place. the red head wedges make me laugh some times because they remind me of a bloody stump of a forearm. Please tell the faller my compliments on his selections, festive indeed, good for the spirit. Maybe if they sold steel wedges spray painted we'd like them more... no, that'd be like running an old 044 "cause its bigger than that 660, just look at the body and plus, this blade (I love it when people call bar and chain the blade)is like 4 inches longer."

CA fellows I've cut with were scared as hell of our snakes (which seem to be, for the most part, incredibly scared of loud noises such as chainsaws or anything else to do with logging), they ran away before hornet and yellowjacket season. A backwoods buddy of mine told me he thinks meth is leveled off in TN, anyone and everyone thats interested has done it and is either hooked and on their way out or over it. Fascinating insight


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## Bushler (Jul 9, 2008)

Children, please stop squabling you're giving me a headache.

(puffs up like toad), Harumph, I've been cutting timber since Christ was a Corporal, and I've used steelies, maggies and plastic wedges, steel jacks, and alum. hyd. jacks.

I also learned early on how to use a dutchman.

For old growth fir I still like steel wedges and bar plates. But that's for OLD growth, the 450 year old stuff with white speck. And an 8 lb. hammer. If the old OLD growth has much lean I prefer an alum. jack. Or a line machine and some climbing gear.

For good thrifty second growth fir (250 yr, old)I prefer plastic wedges and a 5 lb. collins axe.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 9, 2008)

Mr. Bunyan, I mean Bushler, has spoken, and I, with all due respect, stand down.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 9, 2008)

Thank you Mr. Bushler for acknowleging the use of the steel wedge, the defense rests. No further questions.


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## Fuzly (Jul 9, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Thank you Mr. Bushler for acknowleging the use of the steel wedge, the defense rests. No further questions.





Nobody said they were the only game in town.

"since Christ was a Corporal" that's a long time ago


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## forestryworks (Jul 9, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Thank you Mr. Bushler for acknowleging the use of the steel wedge, the defense rests. No further questions.



and i doubt wisconsin has 450yr. old timber...


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## Fuzly (Jul 9, 2008)

slowp said:


> Then there was the other extreme. One guy working falling trees, cutting them into 8 foot "sticks" and then bunching them BY HAND WITH A PICKAROON. I thought that a little bit mad since hydraulics have been invented to assist in moving logs.
> 
> But if we had ticks like that here, I wouldn't want to get out of a nice cab either. Ticks....shudder   They have lyme disease there too.
> We only have meth heads and some kind of deadly bacteria moving down from B.C.



I remember the infamous spring time "pulp peeling" season. The popple sticks (aspen) had to have the bark peeled off since the paper mills at that time would pay more if they didn't have to debark them or didn't have the equipment, I don't know. Anyways, cut em to 8 foot (100 inches later on), peel 'em with a hand spud, and bunch em, usually quicker to just carry them or end over end them minus a pickaroon. Then hand load them onto a sled behind an old Farmall or Ford tractor out to the landing.

A guy that could do 200 sticks a day was considered muy tough.

I tell ya, I hate bug dope, but I've been wearing it this year. Between the lyme and west nile virus I'm actually a little nervous outdoors. 

Bushler is right, squabling gets old fast.


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## ropensaddle (Jul 9, 2008)

I use them all including wooden sheesh is this the friggin White House?
No friggin wander we are being invaded


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## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Children, please stop squabling you're giving me a headache.
> 
> (puffs up like toad), Harumph, I've been cutting timber since Christ was a Corporal, and I've used steelies, maggies and plastic wedges, steel jacks, and alum. hyd. jacks.
> 
> ...




I wonder if you read the disputed point in these posts. The issue is using a SPLITTING wedge, not a steel falling wedge and feathers. Do you stand by your point or do you wish to make a clarification. A steel splitting wedge for falling?


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## Bushler (Jul 10, 2008)

2 dogs, NEVER use a splitting wedge. Damn, I thought it was about long taper steel falling wedges. Sorry.


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## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2008)

OK. I thought that was what you meant. We cool.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 10, 2008)

The steel wedges I use have more lift than your standard plastic, but they are not very aggressive by any means. They have the perfect taper for me and are very durable, drive great with an 8 pounder.

I am talking about moving heavy timber against the lean with these babies. When I try plastic for this, they go in the kerf, tighten up and wont move forward to drive the tree over. Just beat the piss out of the end and they give me the "toing" vibration sound, as if to say, "if you hit me harder I will just snap off." The steel ones just goes "tink" and keeps driving. Not scientific description, but the best I can do. 

I have used the actual splitting wedge with wings on it in a pinch, but definitely not my "go to" felling wedge.

That's about as clear as I can be without pictures, which I am going to try to get eventually.


A thought I had, could it be that you PNW guy's falling much straighter and taller timber on average is a big part of it. I mean if you lift a 140' tree 1" at the bottom, that will move your top weight over quit a bit. Now go to the 70', crooked, leaning, fat tree, it will take much more lift to bring the center of gravity over. I think this is a lot of the difference in the two applications. Because I know it works and works well for me, when the plastics won't get it over I plant a steel right in next to them and finnish.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 10, 2008)

Alright, here are pictures of the wedges I use. The plastics are 10" and the steel is 8 3/4".








That's a double stack plastic behind the steel. The steel wedge is about 1 2/3 the overall height of the double.





Here I am showing that if the plastic wedge were burried it would be about the same lift as half the steel wedge.


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## 2dogs (Jul 10, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> The steel wedges I use have more lift than your standard plastic, but they are not very aggressive by any means. They have the perfect taper for me and are very durable, drive great with an 8 pounder.
> 
> I am talking about moving heavy timber against the lean with these babies. When I try plastic for this, they go in the kerf, tighten up and wont move forward to drive the tree over. Just beat the piss out of the end and they give me the "toing" vibration sound, as if to say, "if you hit me harder I will just snap off." The steel ones just goes "tink" and keeps driving. Not scientific description, but the best I can do.
> 
> ...



If you just would have said "tink vs. toing" I would have understood and we would not have had 5 pages of posts.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Jul 10, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> I am talking about moving heavy timber against the lean with these babies.



I move heavy hardwoods on slopes with lean very easily with my plastic wedges  . Guess its all in the technique. I have never seen a feller in the UP use a steel wedge.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 10, 2008)

Chev, fill me in on your technique if you would.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Jul 10, 2008)

Big hardwoods on steep slopes i bore cut and insert wedges, then cut the backstrap and pound a little and get clear. My girlfriends dad has been cutting timber for an outfit up here for 31 years and doing it that way since he started. I rarely break wedges or have any tink tunk issues. 

Trees on lesser slopes or flat i just do a normal backcut with a wedge or two to set direction.


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## Bushler (Jul 10, 2008)

Nails, be carefull lifting that much with wedges, its possible to break the holding wood and have the tree come back over the wedge. Guanteed to make you run....

Do you ever use a dutchman? I have cut some gnarly tan oak by quartering it away from the lean, and using a dutchman to get it to swing into lead.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 10, 2008)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> Big hardwoods on steep slopes i bore cut and insert wedges, then cut the backstrap and pound a little and get clear. My girlfriends dad has been cutting timber for an outfit up here for 31 years and doing it that way since he started. I rarely break wedges or have any tink tunk issues.
> 
> Trees on lesser slopes or flat i just do a normal backcut with a wedge or two to set direction.



That's a good technique for what you're doing, no doubt.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 11, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Nails, be carefull lifting that much with wedges, its possible to break the holding wood and have the tree come back over the wedge. Guanteed to make you run....
> 
> Do you ever use a dutchman? I have cut some gnarly tan oak by quartering it away from the lean, and using a dutchman to get it to swing into lead.



I've had plenty of trees go over backwards, but none from wedging. I know it can happen though and is on the brain when really trying to force one where it shouldn't be able to go.

Most of our hardwoods hinge very strong, White Pine is a bad one around here.

I have not used the Dutchman. Though not the same, I quarter a lot and use a tapered hinge. I am going to experiment with Dutchboy though, try to get em' swingin. I think it is endless the shapes you can cut in a notch and stuff you can try.


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## hammerlogging (Jul 11, 2008)

Nails, remember, its the side lean, not the back lean, that'll make her break the hinge. I know the feeling when you have your wedges set and tunk no action. Well, thats cause you gat more back lean than you expected, misjudged. But, driving 2 or 3 wedges next to each other simultaneously makes hard punding situations tons easier. Doesn't that big steel wedge ever squirt out?

By the way, I use the long bar for all its benefits, and bore just about everything, never thought of it as harder than a 20" bar. Sure , we can all cut huge timber with tiny bars but its just not as fast casue you have to reposition so damn much. For any experienced cutter, whos afraid opf kickback? Ain't that big of a deal if you can handle a saw. Much rather an inconsequential kickback that ain't no problem than a barberchair, which is really scary stuation. Note- I've had one extraordinary barberchair situation bore cutting a rotten extrememly large hw tree. So, to each his own, but I'd never let someone cut for me where directional felling wasn't the norm.

Pounding on wedges may dislodge hangers whether you bore or back cut. But, bore cut felling (directional felling) has major safety advantages because the TREE IS NOT FALLING WHILE YOU ARE STILL ESTABLISHING YOUR HINGE. Cause HW don't cut as fast, and if you leave a fat hinge you get barberchair, or preliminary barberchair where you start busting butt log wood and good fallers don't break wood. And nails, I agree, the dude did look either coked up or nervous/afraid. No reason to pound wedges fast like that. Really your whole comment in the first place was no big deal, but I won't agree with the big steelies.


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## Bushler (Jul 11, 2008)

Why is it so important to fall them against the lean? I can see heavy wedging an occasional tree, and unit line trees etc.. but normaly I can swing a leaner into lead with a single wedge and/or a dutchman.


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## redprospector (Jul 11, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Alright, here are pictures of the wedges I use. The plastics are 10" and the steel is 8 3/4".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nailsbeats,
That's just an old 5 lb splitting wedge. I'm not going to rail on you about using it, but I think it's a bad idea. If you like steel that's ok, but I would suggest investing in a couple of steel felling wedges instead. I'm not trying to be an a$$ or anything, I'd just hate to see you get hurt.

Andy


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## smokinj (Jul 11, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> Plastic wedges may have more leverage in principle, but not in my real world experience because they just don't drive like steel ones. Thus, my original joke about throwing them out, that guy really wacked away with that old hatchet.
> 
> Keep in mind now, I am speaking in terms of eastern hardwood not western softwood. Plastic wedges do not fair well with those nasty, old, crooked, limby, unbalanced, hardwood trees. They need a lot of lift especially when going opposite the lean. Put a couple steel wedges in with a 8lb maul and you don't need to stack can drive them in with good lift and no wedge damage. With trees 20" and up (this is where they shine) you usually don't have to worry much about contacting the wedge. You don't have to pound it in as far to get the same lift. Next best thing to a tree jack in my opinion.
> 
> ...



I use both for the same reason!


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 11, 2008)

Bushler said:


> Why is it so important to fall them against the lean? I can see heavy wedging an occasional tree, and unit line trees etc.. but normaly I can swing a leaner into lead with a single wedge and/or a dutchman.




Where I'm at you will get clumps of trees growing together, especially Basswood. They all lean out in a circle. I like to lay them all on top of each other if I can, nomatter what the lean. Obviously this makes skidding much easier. We have a 440B John Deere cable skidder. Puts the wedging to the test, that's for sure.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 11, 2008)

hammerlogging said:


> Nails, remember, its the side lean, not the back lean, that'll make her break the hinge. I know the feeling when you have your wedges set and tunk no action. Well, thats cause you gat more back lean than you expected, misjudged. But, driving 2 or 3 wedges next to each other simultaneously makes hard punding situations tons easier. Doesn't that big steel wedge ever squirt out?
> 
> By the way, I use the long bar for all its benefits, and bore just about everything, never thought of it as harder than a 20" bar. Sure , we can all cut huge timber with tiny bars but its just not as fast casue you have to reposition so damn much. For any experienced cutter, whos afraid opf kickback? Ain't that big of a deal if you can handle a saw. Much rather an inconsequential kickback that ain't no problem than a barberchair, which is really scary stuation. Note- I've had one extraordinary barberchair situation bore cutting a rotten extrememly large hw tree. So, to each his own, but I'd never let someone cut for me where directional felling wasn't the norm.
> 
> Pounding on wedges may dislodge hangers whether you bore or back cut. But, bore cut felling (directional felling) has major safety advantages because the TREE IS NOT FALLING WHILE YOU ARE STILL ESTABLISHING YOUR HINGE. Cause HW don't cut as fast, and if you leave a fat hinge you get barberchair, or preliminary barberchair where you start busting butt log wood and good fallers don't break wood. And nails, I agree, the dude did look either coked up or nervous/afraid. No reason to pound wedges fast like that. Really your whole comment in the first place was no big deal, but I won't agree with the big steelies.



I haven't had trouble at all with the steel wedge squirting out. I have pounded them in under major tension before too. I have used it to replace about 3 plastics many times, faster to me.

As far as dislodging stuff, the steel wedge does send a nice shock through the tree, and man do they drive.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 11, 2008)

redprospector said:


> Nailsbeats,
> That's just an old 5 lb splitting wedge. I'm not going to rail on you about using it, but I think it's a bad idea. If you like steel that's ok, but I would suggest investing in a couple of steel felling wedges instead. I'm not trying to be an a$$ or anything, I'd just hate to see you get hurt.
> 
> Andy




I think I would like steel fellers, that's a good idea. I am going to order some to try when I get around to it. Thanks.


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## 2dogs (Jul 11, 2008)

Are steel falling wedges made anymore? I had one many years ago but it was at least 50 years old.


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## Nailsbeats (Jul 12, 2008)

This has me thinking, if I can't find them I will probably build my own. Mill some steel and harden, should work.


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## smokinj (Jul 12, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> This has me thinking, if I can't find them I will probably build my own. Mill some steel and harden, should work.



I use the splitting wedges gives you alot of lift when you need the tree to go in a direction other than it wants to go naturally (not needed for every tree)


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## treemandan (Jul 12, 2008)

Nailsbeats said:


> What a joke. Throw those platic wedges in the garbage where they belong.



They are good for bucking logs on the ground that will close on your saw but then again so is a little piece of bark. 
Don't laugh at me cause I have a couple of them but I don't use them much. I also have a bastard file for my gaffs but that don't see to much action either. I also have a 7/32 saw file but the only place it will works is next to the beer fridge, hold on............. Yup still cold.


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## rtrsam (Jul 12, 2008)

I've used steel firewood wedges a few times when I had nothing else, but I'm more likely to cut a wood wedge insead. If I get real busy with a fat taper but thin firewood wedge, I've just seen it compressing the wood around the wedge instead of lifting the tree. This is especially true in softwoods where you might have 3" of sapwood before you get to anything tough enough to lift a tree

I've also used steel "production" wedges, like we use for making split rails out of redwoods for falling, a steel wedge about the size and shape as an 8" or 10" plastic wedge.

However, I can count my steel wedges for falling experiences on one hand, the rest of the time it's plastic or a Silvey jack.

I've seen steel falling wedges in museums but I sure would't know where a person could find them for sale today. I have a hard enough time getting steel splitting wedges for redwoods, and last time I checked I couldn't even find a checker wedge.

And the guy in the video, ot looks like he could have used a deeper face cut (was he even 1/4 way through the tree?) and he either didn't need wedges at all or he got real lucky that tree didn't set back because he was cut a long ways before he ever put in a wedge.


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## treemandan (Jul 12, 2008)

TreeCo said:


> Add me to the list of plastic wedge users!
> 
> They are especially great when the driving is close to the chainsaw bar. I'm not ashamed to admit I've nicked a few in situations where a metal wedge would have brought sawing to a stop(during a fell!).
> 
> I've got four of the 12 inch neon green. They are easy to find and very light weight. Of course they are only for felling and saw pinches. They are not for splitting wood.



hell, i usually just drive them into the bar, I thought that is how it was supposed to be done.
I have to tell you though, buddy, it says right on the box that the neon green ones are for homosexuals to use. The orange ones are for heterosexuals. You had better switch before people get the wrong idea.
well whatever you fancy but mine are all much shorter than when I first got them.


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## slowp (Jul 12, 2008)

*A Wedge In Use*

Here is a photo of actual wedge useage. It is blurry because things weren't going so well and I get jumpy and ready to run away in such situations. 






Another picture. Note the hardhat color coordination with the wedge. 




I am also noticing a new trend this year of having the felling axe painted flourescent orange. I always wondered why nobody did that. Makes things much easier to find in the woods. The axe also matches hat and wedge for a very sophisticated look. In the winter, he'll also match with his orange caulks.


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## pdqdl (Jul 12, 2008)

*EVERYBODY seems to have missed the point of the film !*

This obviously was NOT some newbie showing off his cool toys. It looks to me like a very experienced feller proving some point. I'm just not sure what the point is. I think he was just trying to show how much tree he could cut off before the tree fell over. Supporting this conclusion:

1. The bore cut was started and finished very smoothly. No way to fake knowing how to do that. As he proceeded through the cut, he carefully pivoted on the point of the saw and left a strip of wood perpendicular to the hinge. 

2. The wedge was placed and pounded tight to HOLD the tree before the finishing cut was placed, but he obviously did not expect the tree to go over even the second time the wedge was pounded in.

3. The entire back cut was finished, and the tree was not sent over with the wedge, it was only tightened up a bit.

4. To finish the tree, the hinge was almost 1/2 cut off but the tree didn't fall yet. Either pure dumb luck, or somebody was carefully loading the wedge up to not _quite_ push the tree over. When the hinge wood was reduced, it was done with a bore cut with the bar finishing on the compression side of the tree. That's not the sort of cut you would do unless you had a lot of confidence in your skills.

5. After all the work and preparation, the tree went over VERY slow after only 5 whacks with the hatchet. The guy had enough time to pick up his wedge, stand back up, put a hand on the tree, and casually step away. That would only happen if you had finished the tree with just barely enough wood to hold it up, and that it was pretty close to perfectly balanced otherwise.

These are not the sort of things that happen by accident. I just don't know what the guy was trying to prove.

Q.E.D.
*****************************************************

All you guys arguing about wedges: that's almost as bad as arguing about Stihl vs Husqy, hand filing vs. machine, Ford vs Chevy, etc. What's the point ?


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## pdqdl (Jul 12, 2008)

*You didn't look close enough*



rtrsam said:


> ...And the guy in the video, ot looks like he could have used a deeper face cut (was he even 1/4 way through the tree?) and he either didn't need wedges at all or he got real lucky that tree didn't set back because he was cut a long ways before he ever put in a wedge.



He left a section of wood perpendicular to the hinge to hold the tree up. It was carefully planned.


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## 2dogs (Jul 13, 2008)

All you guys arguing about wedges: that's almost as bad as arguing about Stihl vs Husqy, hand filing vs. machine, Ford vs Chevy, etc. What's the point ?[/QUOTE]

Yeah! What is with all the discussion. You would think this is a discussion forum. Hey, wait it is. 

I guess you learned something, finally.


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## joesawer (Jul 13, 2008)

Just saw this thread, I have been very busy.
Yes, that tree could have been cut much more effeciantly.
What I saw was some one who was nervous and unsure of what he was doing. 
Remember the wedge cannot lift the tree when there is a strap behind the hinge. It is a total waste of time and energy to try moving the tree forward with a wedge unless it is standing on the hinge and wedge.


Nails, it seems we have had the whole wedge conversation before. Same old tired song, different verse.


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## joesawer (Jul 13, 2008)

abohac said:


> Don't want to pipe in and be a smart#$%@^ but do you guys ever cut anything bigger than those telephone poles on the axmen show? I saw some big timber cut in Alaska but nothing really very big on that show. And, I am really trying to learn something here becasue I have never been to Wash or Oregon.





http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=69827
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=64917&highlight=log+load+pics
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=60669


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## slowp (Jul 13, 2008)

I can't watch videos as I have dial up. But, if it was about a tree going over slowly, the saying is, "It's ok, as long as it goes the right way."


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