# Fell 30 Feet Out of The Tree Today...



## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

I fell 30' out of the tree today. I'm a little embarrassed about it but thought I would put it out there for debate and maybe figure out what I did wrong.

I got real lucky. I was tied in but my friction hitch failed and did not bite. I was climbing an Ivy covered tree, about 36" DBH and the first crotch is 30' off the ground. I had my groundy tailing my rope and I have instructed him to just let go of the rope if I slip. Told him my friction hitch will catch me. I didn't want him to catch a spike in the face or anything in the event I slipped close to the bottom. I am revising that plan as of today.

Anyway, I am climbing on a VT and have stepped off on it a thousand times. I've accidentally slipped several times and never had it fail before. It has always bit the rope and caught me. I slipped in the Ivy this morning trying to get in the first crotch and went straight to the ground. I tried to catch the line but I caught my bull line which I had already set instead. Luckily I had enough friction between my climbing line and the bull line to slow me enough to not make a hard fall. I didn't even hit hard enough to knock the wind out of me. To tell the truth I was on the ground before I even had a chance to be scared. 

It happened so fast that I didn't have time to react. I had always thought that in the event of my friction hitch failing I would always be able to catch my line and keep myself from falling. I see how foolhardy that thinking was. Absolutely no time to react.

I got real lucky and did not get hurt at all but I just can't figure out what caused my hitch to fail. My line wasn't crossed up or anything. I don't know, maybe a piece of Ivy got caught in the hitch or something. Haven't decided if I am going to switch hitches or not. I love climbing on the VT but I have a lot less faith in it now.


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## outdoorlivin247 (Aug 27, 2010)

A local guy that fell out of his bucket last week wasn't so lucky....

His groundie turned around to chew his ass thinking he dropped a limb only to find out it was him...


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

Yup, got real lucky. After that I strapped on my ascenders, went up and finished the tree.


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## ozzy42 (Aug 27, 2010)

Glad you're ok .
Did you test tug the VT before you clipped in?
That hitch can be finicky as hell.
Try to keep mine set on my climbline.

What rope and i2i are you using?


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## tree MDS (Aug 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> I fell 30' out of the tree today. I'm a little embarrassed about it but thought I would put it out there for debate and maybe figure out what I did wrong.
> 
> I got real lucky. I was tied in but my friction hitch failed and did not bite. I was climbing an Ivy covered tree, about 36" DBH and the first crotch is 30' off the ground. I had my groundy tailing my rope and I have instructed him to just let go of the rope if I slip. Told him my friction hitch will catch me. I didn't want him to catch a spike in the face or anything in the event I slipped close to the bottom. I am revising that plan as of today.
> 
> ...



Not to say I told you so.. but that's both you and Bermi now. I was wondering why nobody else was seeing the potential for danger in that knot all along (if you remember correctly). Not sure if I'm gonna keep using it either.. 

Glad you are ok md!


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

ozzy42 said:


> Glad you're ok .
> Did you test tug the VT before you clipped in?
> That hitch can be finicky as hell.
> Try to keep mine set on my climbline.
> ...



I keep mine on my climbline as well. I could not set it as I was using both hands and spikes to get up the large Ivy covered spar. That's why I had my groundy tailing my line. Should have just went up on my ascenders in the first place. I was just trying to avoid having to switch out to a spike once I was topside.

I'm using Poison Ivy line and HRC i2i.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 27, 2010)

Glad you are ok!
Jeff


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## Muffler Bearing (Aug 27, 2010)

I Hope You Picked Up Some Lotto Tickets On Your Way Home!!

I'm Glad Your O.K.


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## Treetom (Aug 27, 2010)

*Live to climb another day*

Glad you're ok. Took a spill last year after climbing since '81. Gravity pulled me down so fast there was no time to react. I've found that the VT, when not under tension. will lose it'a grip on the rope in a short time. I've switched over to the distel with good results. Thanks for your humility. Rep.


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## oldirty (Aug 27, 2010)

glad to hear you ok larry. that wouldve sucked to lose you to a VT. your story is one of the reason i don't bother with that knot. i used it a couple times but found myself screwing with it more that i felt i should on a hitch. 

go with the distal.

stay safe.


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

Well, I've got to admit, I iced down an 18 pack of beer on the way home... Gonna git with my funky lil' cowgirl later...

Some days you just got to celebrate being alive!!! 

Livin' on life number 9!


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 27, 2010)

WOW! LALALUUUUCKY! Glad ur ok, I never trusted that one, new kid uses it, ironicclay, bought him a new set up today, gonna get him in here to read this, he was using my split tail with a Blakes, I asked him if he was sure he didnt want to stay with it, he was determined on the VT, see what he will think about it now!


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## mattfr12 (Aug 27, 2010)

ya ive read about the VT in alot of knot books and what not and even on sherrills website i think in the description it says not suitable for life support.


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## Sunrise Guy (Aug 27, 2010)

Two words from antiquity: Blake's Hitch. I hate VT's, plain and simple. I tried one, a few years back and thought, "You gotta be kidding me. I wouldn't trust my life to this thing in a million years." I know there is snob appeal with the VT, for who knows what reason, but I think/know that it is not a great hitch, or a reliable one, apparently. I have never had one problem, not one, with my Blake's.


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## Bermie (Aug 27, 2010)

Well I know why mine slipped, it got a bit loose, I didn't eyeball it before stepping off. I was able to stop because I just instinctively flicked UP on the VT, which is what it needs if it is ever a bit loose.

Regardless of which hitch you use, I'm sure everyone eyeballs their hitch several times during the day, half the time its subconscious, so the VT is no exception.

I still use my VT, happy with it, but then again, I did not go very far...6' or so and I was working low at that time.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...and also never stop experimenting with cord and hitches...I have a bit of OP coming next week, who knows, a distel may work better...as long as it works with the hitchclimber I don't mind which hitch I use, right now the VT is my choice...still


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## TrillPhil (Aug 27, 2010)

Glad to hear you're okay, and for the story.

I was using another climbers setup earlier this week, he uses a split tail and distel, however I don't know any friction knots but blakes vt and of course taut line... Tied the vt, looked at it and thought, do I trust my life to this. Tied the blake's went up got the job done...


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## Mikecutstrees (Aug 27, 2010)

Glad your ok Md. Thanks for sharing your experience so all can learn. Stay safe.

Mike


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## trailduster2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Glad your ok!!! In this line of work life is all we have. dont trust yours with the VT. I will never use it, my knot of choice is the diestal. Not one problem period. When I am hanging out over the power lines, if the knot failing didnt kill me the power lines surely will!


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## Bermie (Aug 27, 2010)

Seriously MD, so glad you are ok...and props to you for posting your incident.
That takes guts, thanks


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## ddhlakebound (Aug 27, 2010)

Scary stuff man, glad you had a nice soft landing. I haven't used the vt enough to develop a dislike of it, but to me it's just got too much play between loading and grab. 

The i2i blakes (Michoacán) grabs better (imo), takes up less space, and has less play than the vt. If you're gonna change it up, give it a try.


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## treemandan (Aug 27, 2010)

Dam! Glad you are fine. I know people who have stopped climbing after that.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 27, 2010)

I retie mine every time i go up a tree, the hitch is too finicky to just leave on the rope. The characteristics will change with ware.

Glad you are still hale and whole.

Kinda like my near death experiance with my fisherman creaping apart with the high-tech cord. I went back to StableBraid and have had no problems since.


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## TimberJack_7 (Aug 27, 2010)

Well, like everyone else, glad to hear that you are ok. I took a 25ft fall last year and landed hard. Fortunately nothing broken and no long term bad effects but sore for a good three months. All that the result of me being a dumba$$ and taking a stupid chance.

Like someone has said, we play a man's game here. Every great now and then we get a second chance when we shouldn't have. Play safe bro, enjoy the iced down beer, and save a horse and ride a cowgirl !

As for me, yeah I know it is ancient but I am still running the old tautline hitch. Works for me. Life always taste a little better when you realize how fleeting it is!


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## Blakesmaster (Aug 27, 2010)

Md. Glad to hear you made it out safe. Won't comment on the VT as I've had both good and bad luck with it. I'll chill and listen to what comes out of this thread but mainly just happy you didn't bite it. That's what's important.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 27, 2010)

Thats a pretty good fall, 30 feet. Can't say anything that hasn't been said so take care bro and you know God was watching out for ya. 

I still climb on a VT, but as we all know it's a bit more maintenance for a bit more performance.


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## Tree Pig (Aug 27, 2010)

Back when I was still jumping out of plains, everyone was just REALLY getting in to high speed canopies and in turn low fast hook turns were the big rage. Though they were the bomb for fun they were very dangerous (results being burning in to the ground at 80-90 mph) .

VT is the Hook turn of treeclimbing, everyone loves it cause its slick and the latest and greatest. I lost 3 good friends to low hook turns. Someone dying while under a perfectly good canopy just for a little extra fun is really stupid. 

I know you guys that climb every day, all day easier climbing and time saving is key to production but getting hurt while climbing on a questionable, temperamental friction hitch when there are so many safer options is almost as senseless as the hook turn is. Be careful folks.

MD... I am really glad I didnt lose one to the VT.


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 27, 2010)

Stihl-O-Matic said:


> Back when I was still jumping out of plains, everyone was just REALLY getting in to high speed canopies and in turn low fast hook turns were the big rage. Though they were the bomb for fun they were very dangerous (results being burning in to the ground at 80-90 mph) .
> 
> VT is the Hook turn of treeclimbing, everyone loves it cause its slick and the latest and greatest. I lost 3 good friends to low hook turns. Someone dying while under a perfectly good canopy just for a little extra fun is really stupid.
> 
> ...



Big ole guy, cares!
Jeff


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## burntslap (Aug 27, 2010)

Played with the VT a little. Ought to call it DRT. Old skool Blakes and home every day. Glad your alright.


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## derwoodii (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for the post and your courage for sharing for others. Could VT users enlighten me about VT hitches eg whats the advantages over others eg Prusik or Tautline.

I,m very old school circa 1981 never strayed far from a 4 loop prusik so a little fear full of new ideas but very happy to see innovation.

http://www.mytreelessons.com/friction hitch-work in progress.htm


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

TreeCo said:


> I think the VT is taking an undeserved beating in this thread. Almost any climbing hitch that is not tightened every now and then on a long ascent is likely to fail to grab if suddenly loaded.
> 
> Nothing I'm hearing is steering me away from the VT thus far.
> 
> Glad you made out OK MD!



X2

I don't plan on giving up on it. Just going to pay more attention tending it from now on. My prussic cord and climbing line are getting old and worn out. I'm buying new of both this upcoming week. Like John said, Maybe the characteristics are just changing with wear. 

Really, it is the most responsive, high preformance knot I have used. Like I said, I love climbing on it. 

I'm not advising not to use it, just be careful with it is all.


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## BuddhaKat (Aug 27, 2010)

Falling ain't so bad. It's the landing that sucks.

I'd have died of fright before I crossed the 15' mark.


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## RedlineIt (Aug 27, 2010)

Got to agree with JohnPaul:

1. Glad you came out with just a WakeUp.

2. Retie your hitch every time you climb, VT, Knut, Distel, Blakes what have you.

It's not just glazing that can set in undetected, but general crustiness from yesterdays sap, sawdust, honeydew, get in to the fibres and if left tied overnight, night after night, cause the hitch to "freeze" in a relaxed or open state.

Remove the eye2eye and retie each time, (and even then you can feel the way it was on your last rap, tie it opposite) and a lot of these issues go away. For the VT to work, the cordadge MUST be flexible.

Washing your Eye2eyes once in a while helps as well.

RedlineIt


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Thanks for the post and your courage for sharing for others. Could VT users enlighten me about VT hitches eg whats the advantages over others eg Prusik or Tautline.
> 
> I,m very old school circa 1981 never strayed far from a 4 loop prusik so a little fear full of new ideas but very happy to see innovation.
> 
> http://www.mytreelessons.com/friction hitch-work in progress.htm



I started out on a 4 loop prussic and climbed on it for years. When I got a little heavier I had to go with a 5 loop prussic. Works very well.

The advantage with the VT in my opinion is the braids below the coils. This allows the hitch to be so much more responsive. It runs well when you need it to and has always bitten really well for me until today. if you do a lot of limb walking and getting out there in no man's land it really runs smooth. Sure, if you are still hanging on to everything you can get your hands on for security and want the security of a hitch that is going to be very solid but harder to work up and down then the blakes hitch is for you. If you are advanced to the point that you just walk right out on the limbs then the VT makes it much easier and smoother to do so.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> X2
> 
> I don't plan on giving up on it. Just going to pay more attention tending it from now on. My prussic cord and climbing line are getting old and worn out. I'm buying new of both this upcoming week. Like John said, Maybe the characteristics are just changing with wear.
> 
> ...



I think my old ass stick with the taught line and blakes, distel. I have climbed on taught line 28 years and the only problem is with it sticking not falling. I am very glad your ok md


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## derwoodii (Aug 27, 2010)

tree md said:


> I started out on a 4 loop prussic and climbed on it for years. When I got a little heavier I had to go with a 5 loop prussic. Works very well.
> 
> The advantage with the VT in my opinion is the braids below the coils. This allows the hitch to be so much more responsive. It runs well when you need it to and has always bitten really well for me until today. if you do a lot of limb walking and getting out there in no man's land it really runs smooth. Sure, if you are still hanging on to everything you can get your hands on for security and want the security of a hitch that is going to be very solid but harder to work up and down then the blakes hitch is for you. If you are advanced to the point that you just walk right out on the limbs then the VT makes it much easier and smoother to do so.



Ok ta your so right about walkin limbs with prusik they jam n pinch just when you need em to slide. My big limb walkin days are passing or past so I,ve sadly missed out on a better way.

How about on the way up body thrustin is it better here?


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## tree md (Aug 27, 2010)

My hip and body thrusting days are over but this knot really shines when going up on ascenders. Like I said, normally it slides and bites like a mechanical ascendder. I just got in a funny position with mine today. Plus, again, My rope and prussic are worn out. I've got one more to do on them tomorrow then my next climb will be on new rope.


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## derwoodii (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks again. You youngster with your new fangle gear leaves me feelin so old. Often I help at OZ itcc comps and envy the gear in used today its so trick your so lucky. I fear its gettin a bit over the top with so many bits n pieces hanging off you belt mistakes are easyer. Take care.


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## pdqdl (Aug 28, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> I retie mine every time i go up a tree, the hitch is too finicky to just leave on the rope. The characteristics will change with ware.
> ...





That's odd. I use home spliced beeline i2i and my VT gets more reliable the longer I leave it on the rope. It only needs tending carefully when it has been recently re-tied.

I use 8mm beeline on 10mm velocity. I like it for the ease that it slides up, but I really prefer the more traditional knots (on 1/2" climbline) for sliding down. I think the VT binds up a bit too tight, and only slides down with quite a bit of resistance. This thread reminds me that it didn't use to be so tight on the down-direction, so maybe it's time to put on a new i2i.

Perhaps some ropes & i2i combinations are not well suited to using with a VT?


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## beowulf343 (Aug 28, 2010)

That's scary, glad to see you're ok, md.




ddhlakebound said:


> The i2i blakes (Michoacán) grabs better (imo), takes up less space, and has less play than the vt. If you're gonna change it up, give it a try.



Agreed, three years without a problem yet.


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## vaclimber (Aug 28, 2010)

*Vt?*

Hey guys. My knowledge of friction hitches doesnt run very deep. Is there an online resource (illustrated) I can check out? I started with the tautline, then used the Blake's, then used my own knot-3 wraps up then underneath the "bridge" with the tail and tucked it under the middle wrap. I tied a figure8 at the end but after it was dressed and set good it didnt creep. After I was told I couldnt use it in the jamboree I changed to the split-tail system. Anyway, I think it is a French prussik I use now where I simmply wrap around my climbing line 4 times with my split tail and return to the biner (using a smaller diameter tail). Im very pleased with it performance. I read alot of bad stuff about the VT and am curious. Any input?


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## derwoodii (Aug 28, 2010)

vaclimber said:


> Hey guys. My knowledge of friction hitches doesnt run very deep. Is there an online resource (illustrated) I can check out? I started with the tautline, then used the Blake's, then used my own knot-3 wraps up then underneath the "bridge" with the tail and tucked it under the middle wrap. I tied a figure8 at the end but after it was dressed and set good it didnt creep. After I was told I couldnt use it in the jamboree I changed to the split-tail system. Anyway, I think it is a French prussik I use now where I simmply wrap around my climbing line 4 times with my split tail and return to the biner (using a smaller diameter tail). Im very pleased with it performance. I read alot of bad stuff about the VT and am curious. Any input?



Here ya go

http://www.mytreelessons.com/friction hitch-work in progress.htm


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## vaclimber (Aug 28, 2010)

derwoodii said:


> Here ya go
> 
> http://www.mytreelessons.com/friction hitch-work in progress.htm



Thanks derwoodii! Seems like a nifty site that I will enjoy.


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## ozzy42 (Aug 28, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That's odd. I use home spliced beeline i2i and my VT gets more reliable the longer I leave it on the rope. It only needs tending carefully when it has been recently re-tied.
> 
> I use 8mm beeline on 10mm velocity. I like it for the ease that it slides up, but I really prefer the more traditional knots (on 1/2" climbline) for sliding down. I think the VT binds up a bit too tight, and only slides down with quite a bit of resistance. This thread reminds me that it didn't use to be so tight on the down-direction, so maybe it's time to put on a new i2i.
> 
> Perhaps some ropes & i2i combinations are not well suited to using with a VT?



I've had the same experience.
I am using 10mm beeline on my lanyard w/ a brass key ring snap.I leave it tied most of the time except to clean sawdust out every now and then.
It does not slip,except if bucked up close to the spar and the hitch hits a nub or something.Just have to make sure it's stretched out and not being comprimised.

On my climb line ,I am using 10mm ocean.It gets retied a little more frequently,and always takes awhile to set back in after retieing.
I think this could be due to the fact that it's pretty stiff for a 10 mm rope.

Thought an 8 mm would grip better ,but don't think my big grubby hands,and my 200+ lbs could get used to hanging from a pc of clothesline rope.


Thinking of trying a 13mm high vee single eye split tail w/a pulley using a blakes.
I really like the split tail deal.
Anybody using this set up? 
If so,does it tend slack decently?


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## rbtree (Aug 28, 2010)

*I*

It is good that all are aware of how finicky the Vt is. While it's my fav friction hitch, that I've used for about 14 years, it must be given constant attention and respect. In fact, I seem to recall that Sherrill no longer recommends using it.

I currently am using 8 mm OP on 11 mm Blaze and 11.7mm Tachyon. Have used Bailout, which is stiff and wears longer than any other friction hitch cordage. Have used Beeline and others as well, plus plain old double braid polyester. They all work, just some last longer.


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## JeffL (Aug 28, 2010)

Yeah, I've played with that hitch a few times. Its way too finicky for me, having to grab it after unloading it damn near every time to get it to bite back down. I just hop between a swabisch and distel now.

Glad to hear you're ok though, thats pretty damn lucky!


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## ropensaddle (Aug 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> My hip and body thrusting days are over



Lol you have missed the secret of staying young then brother. I really love the body thrust and I am serious. I am so seriously considering the wraptor though but I would still have enough thrusting to get my cardio!


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## tree md (Aug 28, 2010)

ropensaddle said:


> Lol you have missed the secret of staying young then brother. I really love the body thrust and I am serious. I am so seriously considering the wraptor though but I would still have enough thrusting to get my cardio!



Well... Let's just say my body thrusting days in the tree are over... 

Off to do one more for the week then get my new line.


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## colt044 (Aug 28, 2010)

Glad to hear your OK MD, Things happen fast.


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## burntslap (Aug 28, 2010)

Actually, I'm toying with a similiar set-up now. 13mm Blaze w/ 10 mm Bee split-tail, Blake, pully on b'ner. As long as the Blake wasn't tight, there was no pitch in the rope, and I had enuf tail, it worked fine. IOW's, in a cleaner environment, it probably would have worked better ( fir trees were both scarred & bleeding from previous flush-cuts made by prior climber ). In this case (oh, I'm gonna regret this ), the VT works considerably better.

I'm gonna try an 11 mill combo next.


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## Bermie (Aug 28, 2010)

Derwoodii...

I never liked the pussick loop, two wraps was not enough and three was too many...moved the the blakes and that was just fine for several years, but then I wanted to have the self tending setup with a micro pulley.

I just could not get the blakes to ride right with a pulley, it was too tight, probably had the wrong cord...I moved to a distel with beeline, again, it would set too tight on my XTC to self tend happily.

I finally got a hitchclimber, some icetail i2i...and I hit the sweet spot, with the VT.

For me the VT does not overtighten, it self tends beautifully with a hitchclimber, one handing in and out from a branchwalk is nice. I just have found the right combination and I like it. For body thrusting you have to pull from above the hitch, with if you are going any distance could be a problem, so I put a little 5" stitched nylon sling on the bottom biner, and extend it away from me just enough to enable me to pull from below, hand over hand, above or below makes for a nice swift ascent.


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## flushcut (Aug 28, 2010)

tree md said:


> I fell 30' out of the tree today. I'm a little embarrassed about it but thought I would put it out there for debate and maybe figure out what I did wrong.
> 
> I got real lucky. I was tied in but my friction hitch failed and did not bite. I was climbing an Ivy covered tree, about 36" DBH and the first crotch is 30' off the ground. I had my groundy tailing my rope and I have instructed him to just let go of the rope if I slip. Told him my friction hitch will catch me. I didn't want him to catch a spike in the face or anything in the event I slipped close to the bottom. I am revising that plan as of today.
> 
> ...


Scary, I am glad you are OK! I think it should serve as a reminder for us to check our gear and hitch often while aloft.


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## treesquirrel (Aug 28, 2010)

I have never used the VT and I never will. When studying up on hitches the word "finicky" is all I need to make my decision not to use it. The hitch I will rely on for my life support will not be "finicky".

I keep my eyes on my hitch all the time as will all my connection points. I Use the Schwabish, prussic, blakes, and have never had a failure.

If I remember correctly even the tree climbers companion adds a word of caution with use of a VT due to its finicky nature.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 29, 2010)

Still am dwelling on the fact that you are OK, that is so cool that you walked away, I think that ultimately, giving any particular situation, it can happen to any hitch, any climber on anY job, and sure that it has, my blakes has slipped before, not much, but it has, I think this thread is proof positive that no matter the experience, the set up, the tree etc, bad things can and will happen, only this time we get to here about it first hand, instead of reading it in the paper!


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## tree MDS (Aug 29, 2010)

sgreanbeans said:


> Still am dwelling on the fact that you are OK, that is so cool that you walked away, I think that ultimately, giving any particular situation, it can happen to any hitch, any climber on anY job, and sure that it has, my blakes has slipped before, not much, but it has, I think this thread is proof positive that no matter the experience, the set up, the tree etc, bad things can and will happen, only this time we get to here about it first hand, instead of reading it in the paper!



Its not really slipping that I worry about with the vt, more of a plummeting action. Its nothing like a blakes or taughtline when they "slip". Hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm aware of the potential.


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## sgreanbeans (Aug 29, 2010)

tree MDS said:


> Its not really slipping that I worry about with the vt, more of a plummeting action. Its nothing like a blakes or taughtline when they "slip". Hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm aware of the potential.



Plummeting, that word in of itself, is bad! Your right, didnt think about the fact that you shot straight down, not really a slip was it!

I plummeted once, along time ago, 100% my fault, was knocked out by the impact, guess I bounced about 10 feet, just remember when I was mid air, happen so fast, no time to react, I didnt walk away unscathed either, was in the very beginning, after that, I sought out a Pro to show a young padawan the way of the Tree Jedi, He said "First rule, tie in"


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the well wishes. 

I have been thinking the situation over as well. I believe that a contributing factor to the failure is that my i2i might be a tad too long. I have been reading up on the VT and have read that it is likely to not bite on the rope after a long ascent if the cord is too long.

Bottom line, I need to be paying closer attention tending my hitch.


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## ckliff (Aug 29, 2010)

FWIW - I love climbing on the VT. I use the 3/8 tenex on 1/2 rope. When I use a second line, the blakes is always handy. It is good for every climber to know more than one friction hitch.


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

ckliff said:


> FWIW - I love climbing on the VT. I use the 3/8 tenex on 1/2 rope. When I use a second line, the blakes is always handy. It is good for every climber to know more than one friction hitch.



I'm about to go from 5/16 HRC to 3/8 Beeline. I climb on 11.7 mm Poison Ivy. I'm anxious to see how that combo works out. I've never used a 3/8 prusik cord before.

When I use two lines I use a traditional setup on the second line and use a prusik.


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## Nailsbeats (Aug 29, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> That's odd. I use home spliced beeline i2i and my VT gets more reliable the longer I leave it on the rope. It only needs tending carefully when it has been recently re-tied.
> 
> I use 8mm beeline on 10mm velocity. I like it for the ease that it slides up, but I really prefer the more traditional knots (on 1/2" climbline) for sliding down. I think the VT binds up a bit too tight, and only slides down with quite a bit of resistance. This thread reminds me that it didn't use to be so tight on the down-direction, so maybe it's time to put on a new i2i.
> 
> Perhaps some ropes & i2i combinations are not well suited to using with a VT?



I agree, 8mm Beeline on Tachyon, left tied most of the time bights more with more use.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 29, 2010)

ckliff said:


> FWIW - I love climbing on the VT. I use the 3/8 tenex on 1/2 rope. When I use a second line, the blakes is always handy. It is good for every climber to know more than one friction hitch.



The beauty of using poly or nylon rope you can buy in bulk and have several tress cords a in your kit.

I buy a couple hundred feet at a time and sell 5-10 bucks worth to people I work with regularly. I give a little away now and then too 

$25-30 for a tress cord is ridiculous.


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> The beauty of using poly or nylon rope you can buy in bulk and have several tress cords a in your kit.
> 
> I buy a couple hundred feet at a time and sell 5-10 bucks worth to people I work with regularly. I give a little away now and then too
> 
> $25-30 for a tress cord is ridiculous.



I think the cost is for the splicing. It's ridicules what they want for splicing. Only reason I am getting the Bee-Line is because Sherrill has a deal going right now to give one away with a PI purchase. Otherwise I have no problems tying my own eyes. Actually, I would prefer to with my prusik cords. I do like spliced eyes on my climbing line though. I need to learn to splice... With the prices they wanna charge for it, I am starting to think I'm in the wrong business.


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> I fell 30' out of the tree today. I'm a little embarrassed about it but thought I would put it out there for debate and maybe figure out what I did wrong.



I'm not sure what was involved with your gear's falling out. I won't do anything in a tree without some kind of back up device like a shunt. Otherwise I'd just be up there asking myself what the (dirty word) am I doing in the trees around here, and if those climbers on AS.com could see this,.... There is nothing trustworthy about friction knots. They're good to work with, but definitely not to depend on for dear life because if they are suddenly not set just right, then............


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## beowulf343 (Aug 29, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> There is nothing trustworthy about friction knots.




???


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 29, 2010)

beowulf343 said:


> ???



Yeah, was thinking them same.
Jeff


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

Yeah, I was thinking the same... Never met a climber in the industry that doesn't use one and trust his life to it on a daily basis...


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 29, 2010)

I think FTA just jumped in over his head. Probably Googling 'VT' and wondering what Vermont has to do with it.
Jeff


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> I need to learn to splice... With the prices they wanna charge for it, I am starting to think I'm in the wrong business.



I tried, but with how seldom I did it I could not maintain the skills. I make my own loopies and whoopies still, and a balancer every now and then. I just cannot get the tapers to match well on climbing line burries.


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 29, 2010)

ForTheAction said:


> There is nothing trustworthy about friction knots.



Any knot is as good as the attentio0n span of the one setting it. When I had mine fail I had thought earlier that I needed to retie one of the fishermen. You need to check mechanical devices all the time too.


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

Personally, I trust knots more than mechanical devices. That even goes as far as using a bucket. I would much prefer to be tied in with my own rope and my own knot than depending on a piece of mechanical equipment that I don't know a whole lot about and am not sure of who has inspected it last. When I had to do bucket work for one of the companies that I worked for my sphincter always drew up tighter in the bucket than when I was rope and saddle climbing.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 29, 2010)

tree md said:


> Personally, I trust knots more than mechanical devices. That even goes as far as using a bucket. I would much prefer to be tied in with my own rope and my own knot than depending on a piece of mechanical equipment that I don't know a whole lot about and am not sure of who has inspected it last. When I had to do bucket work for one of the companies that I worked for my sphincter always drew up tighter in the bucket than when I was rope and saddle climbing.



First time I got in a buckety I was at two year solid climbing and did not care much for it. Of course that was the old asplundh trucks rickety sob's the GF asked how I liked bucket and I told him man made the bucket and God made the tree who do you trust?


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## ForTheArborist (Aug 29, 2010)

I'll use the Blakes every time, and I'll use a shunt or something on top of that. That way I'm confident that there is a "tomorrow side" of the job when I'm up there doing business.


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## burntslap (Aug 29, 2010)

*Experimented*

Okay guys, after reading thru all the posts, I decided to do a little field test. 8mm Bee-Line ST, Blake, worked as expected on 13mm XTC, and 11.5 Lava. 8mm Ice i2i, VT, was finicky on 13mm XTC, but worked awesome on 11.5 Lava. Bear in mind, I payed much closer attention to the hitches as it was a test. However, my opinion of the VT did change with this experiment, and I will be using it in the future. One thing I noticed for sure, VT was much more forgiving in movement with pitchy line (I dang near had to get a hammer to move my Blake).


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## tree md (Aug 29, 2010)

burntslap said:


> Okay guys, after reading thru all the posts, I decided to do a little field test. 8mm Bee-Line ST, Blake, worked as expected on 13mm XTC, and 11.5 Lava. 8mm Ice i2i, VT, was finicky on 13mm XTC, but worked awesome on 11.5 Lava. Bear in mind, I payed much closer attention to the hitches as it was a test. However, my opinion of the VT did change with this experiment, and I will be using it in the future. One thing I noticed for sure, VT was much more forgiving in movement with pitchy line (I dang near had to get a hammer to move my Blake).



burntslap, that is the thing that is really awesome about the VT. If you need to get somewhere in the tree it will really allow you to get there. That is why it is dear to many climber's hearts, including my own. Another alternative is to tie a plain old prussic in your line. You can adjust friction by the number of coils that you use. I used to climb on four coils and still would when I needed my hitch to run smooth. You just have to be mindful that it is going to take more attention than a 5 coil prussic. Of course it depends on your weight. I am closer to 250 than 200 pounds and 5 coils works best for me except when I have to really move through the tree. There is no substitute for the VT in those situations IMO. Whatever you use just be mindful and pay attention to tending it.

There are those who climb ultra safe and there are those who push the envelope to get the job done and fast. Whatever you do, however you climb just tend your hitch closely and you will be fine.

I guess that was my whole point about posting this thread.


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## Rftreeman (Aug 29, 2010)

*VT*

*V*ery *T*hankful..

glad you did get hurt..


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## pdqdl (Aug 30, 2010)

tree md said:


> ...
> I have been thinking the situation over as well. I believe that a contributing factor to the failure is that my i2i might be a tad too long...



When I started making my own beeline prussics, I discovered that the commonly purchased length of 30" was too long for my preference, using the smaller diameter velocity for a climbing line. If you get it down to a shorter length for the smaller diameter climbing lines, I think there is a big advantage. 

If you have too much play in the VT, just add another crossover. More reliable, not really any more trouble to self tend.


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## tree md (Aug 30, 2010)

PDQDL,

I wanted to tell you that I have appreciated you excellent input on this thread. You definitely know your rope bud.


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## moss (Aug 30, 2010)

pdqdl said:


> When I started making my own beeline prussics, I discovered that the commonly purchased length of 30" was too long for my preference, using the smaller diameter velocity for a climbing line. If you get ityou down to a shorter length for the smaller diameter climbing lines, I think there is a big advantage.
> 
> If you have too much play in the VT, just add another crossover. More reliable, not really any more trouble to self tend.



That's it, I like 28".

Do a crossover similar to the way a Blake's crosses the "bridge" just below the coils and then do the braids, aka XT, performs like a VT, less finicky, totally self-tending with a little rope weight below. Distel is a sweet hitch but tends to bind on me, Distel with very short legs is perfect for a lanyard IMHO, grabs quick, no sitback.
-moss


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## pdqdl (Aug 30, 2010)

tree md said:


> PDQDL,
> 
> I wanted to tell you that I have appreciated you excellent input on this thread. You definitely know your rope bud.



Thanks. That really means a lot to me.

I was quite the Boy Scout, and I have spent the last several years learning a lot here at AS from folks like Moss, Moray, and so many others. Even TreeSpyder, although he is awful hard to follow sometimes. There is SO much to learn here, if you just tune in real close.

It helps that I enjoy splicing and tying knots.


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## JNGWC&Tree (Aug 30, 2010)

Had a similar experience on a textbook tied Blake's once. I now use the tautline hitch. I'd rather have a hitch the seizes and freezes than one that keeps on running. 

It's a bizarre sensation to see wood passing by fast and hear the distinctive sound of rope passing through a friction hitch at high rates of speed. I landed on the clients fence and had to replace a section. If I had not had my spurs on I would have likely broken both legs but the shafts and pads took the impact and kept my legs braced. Nice bruises afterward.

It was like slow motion while happening though...........


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## tree md (Aug 30, 2010)

Another thing I failed to mention is that my line was a good 10' from the trunk so I took a pretty hard swing as well. This tree was very dead in the top. I had to set my bull line in the only central crotch and did not want to be tied in to the same lead I was rigging from. I had to set my climbing line in the crotch of another leader that had me about 10' away from the trunk. I'm sure the swing probably played a part as well. This tree was made to climb on rope. I was just trying to spike up to save time from having to switch over to gaffs. Which is what I did in the end anyway.

Oh well, chalk it up to a learning experience.

And yes, I did hear the line whizzing thought the hitch. It did seem to happen in slo mo but it happened fast enough that I could not catch my climb line. I did manage to catch my bull line which slowed me down enough to escape injury. I was on the ground before I knew it. Wasn't hurt a bit but I did lay there for a minute to catch my breath. That will definitely wake you up the first thing in the morning.


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## fishercat (Aug 30, 2010)

*Glad you're ok!*

I played with the VT last year.I never felt I could trust it.especially in a panic or emergency.Seemed high maintenance and needed constant attention.Made my job more stressful.

Back on the Blakes.Simple and always works.That's what I like.


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## tree MDS (Aug 30, 2010)

fishercat said:


> I played with the VT last year.I never felt I could trust it.especially in a panic or emergency.Seemed high maintenance and needed constant attention.Made my job more stressful.
> 
> Back on the Blakes.Simple and always works.That's what I like.



Maybe you forgot to take it out to dinner and kiss its neck ever so sweetly..


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## fishercat (Aug 30, 2010)

*Must have been it.*



tree MDS said:


> Maybe you forgot to take it out to dinner and kiss its neck ever so sweetly..



Thanks for the info!


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## Job Corps Tree (Aug 30, 2010)

*fell 30 feet out of a tree today*

Only times I have seen a VT fail is if it did not have enough wraps taken , How ever longt is if it is not all used up in the Knot so it has to draw out to its full length. it has to draw out to tighten, if only one wrap is left off and it can slide, sometimes that one extry wrap is all it will take to tighten up, but than again all ways check it. Glad you are OK


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## John Paul Sanborn (Aug 30, 2010)

If it is not set, and it fowls on your saddle or the like, then it is likely to not set. I've had it where my lanyard conflicts with the climbing VT and I get startled when I move farther then I expected.


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## ropensaddle (Aug 30, 2010)

Job Corps Tree said:


> one extry wrap



Lol now your sounding like a real Arkansan friend


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## jefflovstrom (Aug 30, 2010)

John Paul Sanborn said:


> If it is not set, and it fowls.



Then it is a bird! Ha!
Jeff


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## Jeffsaw (Aug 30, 2010)

tree md,

Thank-you for the honesty. It's info. like this that will help us greenhornes be more cautious.


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## Rftreeman (Aug 31, 2010)

Rftreeman said:


> *VT*
> 
> *V*ery *T*hankful..
> 
> glad you did get hurt..


that should read "glad you *didn't *get hurt"....


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## userdude (Sep 2, 2010)

*I think it was the name...*

that made this hitch popular a few years back. It really sounds like you know what you're doing when you use a Valdotain tresse!
On a serious note...glad you're OK bro.


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## fishercat (Sep 3, 2010)

*I agree 100%*



tree md said:


> Personally, I trust knots more than mechanical devices. That even goes as far as using a bucket. I would much prefer to be tied in with my own rope and my own knot than depending on a piece of mechanical equipment that I don't know a whole lot about and am not sure of who has inspected it last. When I had to do bucket work for one of the companies that I worked for my sphincter always drew up tighter in the bucket than when I was rope and saddle climbing.



I hate hearing creaks groans and pops in a boom when I'm in the bucket.No one I know with a bucket gets them inspected.Scary.The fact they all have kids is even scarier.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2011)

*Reviving this thread*

I am reviving this thread because I had something happen with my VT earlier this week that has never happened before and could have been what happened during the indecent I originally posted about.

My VT inverted on me.

Two days ago I was doing a large prune and when I got near the top I noticed my VT was not biting. I stood up on my ascender to take some weight off and see what was going on with my knot and I saw that the knot had inverted. First time I have ever noticed it doing that. I inspected the knot to make sure I had it tied properly and it was. The braids just somehow found their way above the coils inverting the knot and turning it upside down. 

I know I have talked the VT up a lot and still believe it is the best knot I have found for effortless movement while working in the tree but I will definitely be exploring a few more knots after this experience.

Just figured I should put that out there.


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## flushcut (Apr 16, 2011)

What hitch cord are you using?


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2011)

I was using HRC when I first posted this thread. Now I'm using Icetail.


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## flushcut (Apr 16, 2011)

tree md said:


> Now I'm using Icetail.


 
I'm not familiar with that one. I was thinking if it was to stiff or your legs were to long it would allow your braids to push up and over your wraps when stripping slack. Or maybe your wraps are bitting to hard on your line? (pitch maybe?) Just trowing ideas out there. I like the swabisch I find the hard bitting more of a comfort thing for me.


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## prentice110 (Apr 16, 2011)

fishercat said:


> I hate hearing creaks groans and pops in a boom when I'm in the bucket.No one I know with a bucket gets them inspected.Scary.The fact they all have kids is even scarier.


 
My dads failed on him twice, one time the base snapped and the boom got caught in a crotch. Old Bob wasnt so lucky. I am becomeing more and more afraid of climbing the older I get, because I dont ever want to fall. Paranoid or something, I guess it helps me be safe, but I just dont trust the trees sometimes. As far as the gear goes, God knows. You kinda gotta hope that old Jerry down at the factory wasnt hungover or having an acid flashback when he was splicing your rope. Same thing with the bucket, but always kinda wanted to go out like that. Other wise I wouldnt still be flying a 69' Skyworker from time to time that hasnt been certified since 91'. Whata way to go. Be like stepping on an ant, its just a life , aint nothing special.


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## chad556 (Apr 16, 2011)

*Xt*

I started using a distel (or schwabish, cant remember) and didn't really care for it. Don't get me wrong it worked fine but it just didnt feel right. I researched a little more and decided to try out the knot that sherrill's website recommended for "seasoned or experienced climbers only". Took it low and slow and really liked it but I had a couple moments like tree md where I would double check it after unloading it and be like WTF is that mess? Having to redress a life support knot when you're 45' up kind of made me a little queasy.

I then stumbled upon a youtube video that demonstrated a variation of the VT called the XT, so far it has been flawless. Never had any trouble with it no matter what I do. It behaves just like the VT except it holds together no matter how loose it gets. Always grabs predictably, right away, when loaded. I know its not for everyone and lots of guys are set in their ways but if you are one of those guys that loves the VT but wishes it could just be... better, then this one is worth a shot:







It is tied just like the VT except instead of braiding right after the wraps you cross over your bottom tail just like your tying a blakes hitch, then you braid. That extra little bend holds the wraps in place perfectly. Works for me.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2011)

chad556 said:


> I started using a distel (or schwabish, cant remember) and didn't really care for it. Don't get me wrong it worked fine but it just didnt feel right. I researched a little more and decided to try out the knot that sherrill's website recommended for "seasoned or experienced climbers only". Took it low and slow and really liked it but I had a couple moments like tree md where I would double check it after unloading it and be like WTF is that mess? Having to redress a life support knot when you're 45' up kind of made me a little queasy.
> 
> I then stumbled upon a youtube video that demonstrated a variation of the VT called the XT, so far it has been flawless. Never had any trouble with it no matter what I do. It behaves just like the VT except it holds together no matter how loose it gets. Always grabs predictably, right away, when loaded. I know its not for everyone and lots of guys are set in their ways but if you are one of those guys that loves the VT but wishes it could just be... better, then this one is worth a shot:
> 
> ...


 
Gonna have to give that one a try. Moss also mentioned that he likes that one. I have tied it a few times just playing around but haven't climbed on it. I am in such a habit of tying the plain old VT that I forget to tie the XT. Kind of like the running bowline, you just get so used to tying the dam thing that you can do it upside down in your sleep.


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## tree md (Apr 16, 2011)

flushcut said:


> I'm not familiar with that one. I was thinking if it was to stiff or your legs were to long it would allow your braids to push up and over your wraps when stripping slack. Or maybe your wraps are bitting to hard on your line? (pitch maybe?) Just trowing ideas out there. I like the swabisch I find the hard bitting more of a comfort thing for me.


 
It's a lot more pliable than the HRC. I have shortened it up considerably as well. I think my prussic is only like 28" now. I have just enough to tie my hitch and that's the way I like it.


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## itsmyblood (Apr 17, 2011)

*Spliced eye vs double fishermens knot.*

One problem i'v had is with the prusik cord . I noticed the cords with spliced eyes tend to slide down the carabiner opening the braids causing the hitch to slide and not catch. I will never use spliced eyes on a prusik again. The double fishermens not holds the cord tight to the top of the carabiner.


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