# Excessive stump-shot. . .



## Metals406 (Jul 22, 2012)

Does it increase your chances of a Barber-chair?

Discuss. . .


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

You're talking back cut above face? "Backstep"?


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## Metals406 (Jul 22, 2012)

Rounder said:


> You're talking back cut above face? "Backstep"?



Yes


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## wowzers (Jul 22, 2012)

When I first started I had a hard time not leaving a big step. Took a while for me to get it down.


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't have the experience alot of you guys have so my opinion may not be valid but I am not a big believer in leaving much stump shot. I have not had a barberchair that has ever amounted to much but I have seen slabbing that stopped just short of a chair. I prefer minimal stump shot on the dead trees I take down, like about and inch, maybe two inches at most. I almost always use a Humboldt as it feels more natural to me and easier to match to the gunning cut vs a conventional notch.

To clarify I think in dead trees too much stump shot is a very bad thing. The hinge is not flexible and the fibers tend to break rather than bend or pull. To much stump shot will cause (me) to cut the hinge up too close because the tree won't commit to the lean fast enough. A tree over about 30" gets 2" of stump shot, below that I prefer 1".

Breaking the hinge wood early really sucks!


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## wowzers (Jul 22, 2012)

The biggest thing I found is it makes one that leans the wrong way a lot harder to tip over.


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## madhatte (Jul 22, 2012)

I think the USFS has done a lot of part-time cutters a disservice by preaching stump shot as a safety item. Near as I can figure, its only real function is to keep the stem from sliding or rolling back across the stump once it tips, which isn't an issue at all with a Humboldt. Why they insist on teaching the conventional face is beyond me. I've always found it easier to match the corners with a Humboldt, as well as physically less work -- just dog in and let gravity do its thing rather than fighting the saw all the way through the cut. 

As for barberchair, that's a possibility that needs to be addressed on a tree-by-tree basis rather than by sweeping proclamation. Again, I blame the USFS for teaching one cut as though every tree was the same. I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a good reason for a stepped back cut in the crosscut days, but at the moment I'm at a loss to figure out what that was. 

Oh, and all cuts waist-high? Another dumb idea. It's like they don't want their cutters to practice critical thinking. I've had to evaluate cutters for S-212 and bit my tongue checking off as "good" all these practices that I personally disagree with.


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

Nate, I don't think it increases the chance of a chair at all. My boss insists on 2 inches, his thinking being that it will slow the fall of the tree, helping eliminate fibre pull, given more time to proceed with the back cut in un-tensioned fibre. He is right, but keeping the tree on the stump longer has its downfalls too.

That said, I hate the backstep, and don't usually use it, unless I'm within view of the road where the boss might see what I'm up to. A sharp chain, expierence and adequate sized saw will take care of fiber pull or barberchair potential.


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## Metals406 (Jul 22, 2012)

Not talking 2 inches here guys, by excessive I mean 3" - 6" on trees no greater than 24" in diameter.

My personal belief is it will cause a chair, if the wood grain is straight enough -- whether the tree is green or dead.

This spans multiple species, but the more chair prone species would be even worse.

In example, Cody is a nice guy, but he needs more than the wildland training he has.

Check out his step here, and watch the wood grain. . . If it was straighter grained, or frozen, I believe it could have slabbed on him. Especially if his face had been more shallow, and the face would have closed earlier on him.

Not saying I'm right, but that's why I think this is a good thing to spitball on.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sk5SshyzGNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2012)

Ugh Wranglerstar. No wonder you don't approve of his techniques. I have watched several of his videos in the past and while they are well done his experience level seems pretty low and he only knows his way. I was interested in hand tools and his axe video is really terrible. Sorta Bob Vila meets Red Green.


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## Metals406 (Jul 22, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Ugh Wranglerstar. No wonder you don't approve of his techniques. I have watched several of his videos in the past and while they are well done his experience level seems pretty low and he only knows his way. I was interested in hand tools and his axe video is really terrible. Sorta Bob Vila meets Red Green.



Like I said, he's a nice guy -- but probably shouldn't be showing felling how-to in his videos.

He has older videos, when he was clearing his old property, when he was felling a lot of trees. In those videos, he would say he wasn't claiming to be a pro -- but in more than one sense -- folks will take him as one.

I (and others) gave him some good pointers back then. . . And apparently it fell on deaf ears. Can't really blame him, he probably thought I was some 15 year old goober typing in his mom's basement. :tongue2:

He's consistently stepped about 6" on his trees though -- is that something he learned when he was doing wildland fire stuff?


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

Okay, yeah 3-6 inches is another story...not sure what would happen, never bothered to try it!


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## FSburt (Jul 22, 2012)

My thoughts on stump shot height is like most of you already have pointed out. It is usually excessively preached that more is better for govt cutters and we end up seeing folks at our c sessions trying to beat themselves senseless with a tree that has a shallow 1/3 undercut and a high back cut to boot. I try to explain that there are very rare instances for needing a high backcut and it usually deals with falling down the hill and needing the tree to hang on the stump for most of the way down. I think they feel these are hard and fast rules that can never be broken which is where they get stuck at.


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## RandyMac (Jul 22, 2012)

Yep, for downhill or if the tree is pushing through other trees.
I'm a fan of waist high stumps.


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## Gologit (Jul 22, 2012)

There's some good information in this thread...you guys have it figured out pretty good. 
I agree that an inch or two doesn't really matter in most cases. After that it's a tree by tree thing.
I usually don't use much but, then again, it depends on the tree, the ground, and what I want to do.

They guy on the video? He's a little scary. With that particular tree I didn't see any need for a big step cut...but that's just me.
That move he made to retrieve his axe just as the tree started over was bad. If the tree had slabbed on him he couldn't have been in a worse position.


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

Must be bored, I just watched the video. 

In this case, the fondling of the tree in the beginning of the video, talking sweetly to it, and the wearing of the bandana will most certainly avert any danger of a chair.


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## Gologit (Jul 22, 2012)

Rounder said:


> Must be bored, I just watched the video.
> 
> In this case, the fondling of the tree in the beginning of the video, talking sweetly to it, and the wearing of the bandana will most certainly avert any danger of a chair.



Yup..and that wicker-bill hat, too, that'll keep a guy safe. I was waiting for him to buck his tape when he left it stretched out. I watched it without sound but I'll just take your word about the sweet talking. The bandana was a bit too much.


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2012)

rounder said:


> the wearing of the bandana.



y m c a


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## forestryworks (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't know about excessive stump-shot making certain trees more prone to barber chair, but I do know it makes trees harder to wedge over...

Did a job last week falling topped pines. Not sure why the person topping them couldn't finish their work, but whatever; I made good money off their nonsense.

The guy I worked with is a gov. employee, always 1/3 depth conventional, stump-shot, ALWAYS wedging. Every. Single. Tree. :bang:

We had two topped trees left to fall, I got one, he got one. 

He did his usual cutting. I cut mine a good deal more than 1/2 depth (free standing spars, mind you) and it fell with no effort from me; except dogging my saw from far to near. He beat wedges on his spar until the thing wobbled and inched its way painfully slow to the tipping point. 

I guess he had enough ax swinging cause he stood up and pushed it over :monkey:

There's a reason for doing the undercut first; it undermines (undercuts) the tree's center of gravity. Hopefully that guy will understand that some day and not work so hard.


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

2dogs said:


> y m c a



And beer just went from my mouth and hit the computer screen, needed that! Gotta go to bed.....3AM wake-up call.

That was ####### funny.


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## Rounder (Jul 22, 2012)

Gologit said:


> Yup..and that wicker-bill hat, too, that'll keep a guy safe. I was waiting for him to buck his tape when he left it stretched out. I watched it without sound but I'll just take your word about the sweet talking. The bandana was a bit too much.



Tape action and wedge were pretty funny...


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## Jim Timber (Jul 22, 2012)

So as a relatively green cutter (I've probably felled 100 cords of wood), I've always left a little step to force the tree to pivot on that and not kick back or slide off the back of the stump. I cut fast enough that the tree is still standing while I'm pulling my saw out and getting clear (most of the time). When you've got a real leaner, there's no point and I'll do a little relief on the downward side before cutting through from the back - that might not be the right thing to do either.

Do you guys intend to cut a flush stump? Or are you just against leaving so much wood above the hinge?

I've never had a barber chair, but I've had plenty that didn't cooperate.


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## TreePointer (Jul 22, 2012)

The higher you cut, chances increase that you will look like Bob Vila:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6N6rViWIzVY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## RandyMac (Jul 22, 2012)




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## Jim Timber (Jul 22, 2012)

I'd slide that stick BV cut off the bar as I came through from behind... No need for more than one cut on that twig.


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## 2dogs (Jul 22, 2012)

Randy what is the story with that tree? Looks like rough country to work in.


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## RandyMac (Jul 23, 2012)

That was snag and hazard tree duty before setting fire to everything. It was on the Klamath, Happy Camp RD.


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> So as a relatively green cutter (I've probably felled 100 cords of wood), I've always left a little step to force the tree to pivot on that and not kick back or slide off the back of the stump. I cut fast enough that the tree is still standing while I'm pulling my saw out and getting clear (most of the time). When you've got a real leaner, there's no point and I'll do a little relief on the downward side before cutting through from the back - that might not be the right thing to do either.
> 
> Do you guys intend to cut a flush stump? Or are you just against leaving so much wood above the hinge?
> 
> I've never had a barber chair, but I've had plenty that didn't cooperate.



The tree isn't forced to pivot on the step. It's a safety measure to keep the tree from coming back on you as the face closes and the hinge breaks. Limb-locked trees are a good example of a situation where the tree might be forced back at you on the stump.

The trees decent is controlled by the hinge. Hinge thickness, fiber column height, fiber strength, straightness of the grain, and many other factors decide when and where the tree goes. . . Not to mention the unforeseen factors.

When you step the back like Cody, you're lengthening the fiber column of the hing. Got a corn broom in the house? Grab it and pretend it's you hinge. With your right hand grab it tight (that's your face), with your left hand bend the broom at different heights in relation to the right hand, and observe the fibers (don't break your broom LOL). 

So now look at the video of that fir. As the tree began to commit, that tall column of fibers began to bend, at some point they stop bending and start breaking. If the grain is straight enough at the tare, and the forces are great enough, it could continue up the stem and slab or chair -- specifically at the end of his back-cut. An early closing face would make it worse, as the tree would still have a lot of forward energy left.

He could cut trees that way for the next 100, and nothing may happen. . . But it only takes 1 to get ya -- and he's a bit cocky on the "stump lingering" aspect. Once the tree commits, get the heck back, most injuries occur within 8' of the stump.


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## Jim Timber (Jul 23, 2012)

In my mind, I'm the tree's [email protected] until it's on the ground. Unless it's a little one, I get the hell out of there!

I was trying to teach a buddy about cutting and he'd just stand there and look doe eye'd as the tree started to lean... Not on my liability insurance. I banned him from cutting anything over 4" after that. "If you can't hold it up, you can't cut it." He had no respect for how much force they have, so I relegated him to clearing brush.


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> In my mind, I'm the tree's [email protected] until it's on the ground. Unless it's a little one, I get the hell out of there!
> 
> I was trying to teach a buddy about cutting and he'd just stand there and look doe eye'd as the tree started to lean... Not on my liability insurance. I banned him from cutting anything over 4" after that. "If you can't hold it up, you can't cut it." He had no respect for how much force they have, so I relegated him to clearing brush.



A 20' X 4" diameter tree can kill you. . . I had a full-brim Mac T back in the day with a caved in top to prove it. 

Mass X Acceleration= Force

Good on ya for limiting him until he learn more.


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## Jim Timber (Jul 23, 2012)

The stuff I was letting him cut was aspen and basswood. A 4" tree might weigh 100#. 

If he was showing tendencies to get into the danger zones, I'd kick his ass right off my lot. He just lingered waaaaay too long after the tree had committed to falling.

Once I know she's moving, I'm outta there. What was really nice about stepping up to the 70cc saw, was that I can finish my back cut and get moving before the tree starts to go. If I do my cuts right, and judge the lean correctly - I'm at a nice distance watching her fall. That's my favorite place to be on a 15" oak.


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## slowp (Jul 23, 2012)

Bandanas like that are popular to put on large dogs that tend to drool a lot. They will act as a bib, and hopefully stop any drool contact with floors or rugs or???

Perhaps it is a Man Bib? 

Now, back to the topic. So, if or when I return to the limb locked tree project, I should leave a little step?? My cuts sometimes look like Bob Vila's.


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> Bandanas like that are popular to put on large dogs that tend to drool a lot. They will act as a bib, and hopefully stop any drool contact with floors or rugs or???
> 
> Perhaps it is a Man Bib?
> 
> Now, back to the topic. So, if or when I return to the limb locked tree project, I should leave a little step?? My cuts sometimes look like Bob Vila's.



You can, but those were smaller trees right?

On smaller limb-locked stuff, I usually want them to roll out, so when the tree is plenty committed, I cut the hinge off with the tip of the bar. 

Don't try it if it makes ya feel funny in yer guts.

On trees up to 12", a 1"-2" step is plenty.


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## slowp (Jul 23, 2012)

They are around 6 to 10 inches. A good firewood size. They seldom hit the ground without help from a tractor.

This one went on its own because there was a fence to hit.






Same with this one.





This one sat back. A Bob Vila stump. But it was one of the few to hit the ground.





View attachment 245956
View attachment 245957
View attachment 245958


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2012)

Yup, that's the one I remembered!

If you feel comfortable trying it, try the roll-out trick. It definitely helps them roll out and not want to stick up there in another tree.

A small felling lever/cant hook would be useful as well. If you make them stay on the stump all the way down -- and then cut your hinge once they've stopped moving-- you can roll them off with it.


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## slowp (Jul 23, 2012)

I do not understand this roll out that you speak of.

I heard a faller mentioning rolling a hung up tree out to a guy that was trying to become a faller and had come for help with his hung up tree. But I couldn't listen much because they were on my tail and I had to get corridors marked out. 

Because I'm ascared of the trees, I bug out before cutting the hinge thin enough. The trees do not break it off.


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## Metals406 (Jul 23, 2012)

slowp said:


> I do not understand this roll out that you speak of.
> 
> I heard a faller mentioning rolling a hung up tree out to a guy that was trying to become a faller and had come for help with his hung up tree. But I couldn't listen much because they were on my tail and I had to get corridors marked out.
> 
> Because I'm ascared of the trees, I bug out before cutting the hinge thin enough. The trees do not break it off.



I might could be able to make a video for ya, and explain/show it better that way.


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## 2dogs (Jul 23, 2012)

Limb locked trees are something I deal with regularly. Any tree that even looks like it will give me trouble gets a rope in it. I carry a throwbag (with line, weight, and tape) and a 120' piece of 1/2" Treemaster. I set the rope as high as I can and try to have someone pull the tree when it starts to fall. If I am working alone then I set the rope and pull the tree after I back cut it. Once every couple of years I will set up a self pulling rope system but that is a pain to do. Oh, and I have my truck to pull or winch with at times too.


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## Jim Timber (Jul 23, 2012)

I've been struggling with limb locking hangers a lot at my place. Usually comes from lighter cull trees landing on stronger crop trees. I'm going to need to rope them and use a high lift as a winch or do some pully work with the come along. My atv isn't heavy enough to winch them, even with the rear winch anchored.


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## madhatte (Jul 23, 2012)

You're gonna want a snatch block or two to a) increase your leverage and b) get you and your gear out of the line of fire. They're not expensive.


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## 2dogs (Jul 24, 2012)

madhatte said:


> You're gonna want a snatch block or two to a) increase your leverage and b) get you and your gear out of the line of fire. They're not expensive.



Yeah I didn't list every piece of gear I have. The throw bag and rope are the basics most often used. Note my rope is 120' long.


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## ShaneLogs (Jul 24, 2012)

Del_ said:


> I think it does.



X2 on that, Del.


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## ShaneLogs (Jul 24, 2012)

slowp said:


> They are around 6 to 10 inches. A good firewood size. They seldom hit the ground without help from a tractor.
> 
> This one went on its own because there was a fence to hit.
> 
> ...



Good pictures but, I am not understanding why you made that notch cut in the stump there ?:confused2:


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## Metals406 (Jul 24, 2012)

2dogs said:


> Limb locked trees are something I deal with regularly. Any tree that even looks like it will give me trouble gets a rope in it. I carry a throwbag (with line, weight, and tape) and a 120' piece of 1/2" Treemaster. I set the rope as high as I can and try to have someone pull the tree when it starts to fall. If I am working alone then I set the rope and pull the tree after I back cut it. Once every couple of years I will set up a self pulling rope system but that is a pain to do. Oh, and I have my truck to pull or winch with at times too.



I'm a big believer in rope as well. . . I rope a lot of trees that I think might give me trouble, or I want them 90° to 180° from their natural (usually hard) lean.


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## Jim Timber (Jul 24, 2012)

I've got a snatch block, but I could use another to multiply the force - it's been on the gear to buy list for a while.


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## redprospector (Jul 24, 2012)

I've used a high stump shot on occasion. But the only legitimate reason for using more than 2" is if the tree is very close to a house or other structure (or whatever), and has to be felled uphill. In a case like this I would probably use an "open birds mouth" for the face. A block face works well for this too. I've usually got a 3/8" or 1/2" cable in a tree like this too. Snatch blocks are like just about anything else, they can be expensive if you buy a good one. I like my old McKissic, but it wasn't cheap.


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## redprospector (Jul 24, 2012)

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Snatchblocks can be expensive if you buy a cheap one too.

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 24, 2012)

Good to hear from ya Andy! Hope yer having a good summer. 

My China 6" block was $63.00 from my local rigging shop. . . The same block (obviously better quality) from Skookum was $600-$800. :jawdrop:


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## Jim Timber (Jul 24, 2012)

Yikes, what are they made of at $600?? 

I'm thinking I'll make my own double pulley ones at a cost of a couple hours time.


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## Metals406 (Jul 24, 2012)

Jim Timber said:


> Yikes, what are they made of at $600??
> 
> I'm thinking I'll make my own double pulley ones at a cost of a couple hours time.



Skookum is old-school American goodness.

When you order a block, they don't pull one off the shelf, they build it. :msp_thumbup:

BTW, they make blocks the size of yer truck. . . And you don't want to know what one of those costs. :msp_scared:


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## redprospector (Jul 24, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> Good to hear from ya Andy! Hope yer having a good summer.
> 
> My China 6" block was $63.00 from my local rigging shop. . . The same block (obviously better quality) from Skookum was $600-$800. :jawdrop:



It's good to be heard from. 
I'm buiser than a one armed paper hanger right now. But the State Forestry said they don't have anything on the horizon after this.
My old McKissic cost me $40 at a second hand store about 10 years ago. It has about an 8" wheel that will take better than a 3/4" cable. The guy either really liked me, or didn't know what he had. My buddy borrows it to use on his crane truck from time to time. 

Andy


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## Metals406 (Jul 25, 2012)

redprospector said:


> It's good to be heard from.
> I'm buiser than a one armed paper hanger right now. But the State Forestry said they don't have anything on the horizon after this.
> My old McKissic cost me $40 at a second hand store about 10 years ago. It has about an 8" wheel that will take better than a 3/4" cable. The guy either really liked me, or didn't know what he had. My buddy borrows it to use on his crane truck from time to time.
> 
> Andy



I have a big one like that as well, that I also picked up fer $40. Can't remember the name, but old USA fer sure. The hook has been welded a couple times, so I don't fully trust it, and it definitely wouldn't pass for any serious rigging.

So are you making any money, or going broke one job at a time. 

Howz Sean doing these days?


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## redprospector (Jul 25, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> I have a big one like that as well, that I also picked up fer $40. Can't remember the name, but old USA fer sure. The hook has been welded a couple times, so I don't fully trust it, and it definitely wouldn't pass for any serious rigging.
> 
> So are you making any money, or going broke one job at a time.
> 
> Howz Sean doing these days?



I'm making a little money, nothing to write home about though. I've always said that if I'm going to go broke I'll do it on the creek bank, or lake shore.

Sean's doing fine. He's building motorcycles instead of saws lately.

Andy


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## DavdH (Jul 25, 2012)

Darn for 45 years I been calling _stump pull_ stump shot, glade to finally get straightened out! Just trim it off, appearance can be 99% of the battle especially if you are marketing logs. Any one looking at the stumps after the fact is purely speculating 80% of the time. Isn't that right* Extrapolate*. The stump can tell a story but not the whole tale.


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## redprospector (Jul 25, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> Howz Sean doing these days?



This isn't Sean, but it is his cousin. :hmm3grin2orange: This girl is nothing but trouble.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VGhUngW8kkQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Andy


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## redprospector (Jul 25, 2012)

DavdH said:


> The stump can tell a story but not the whole tale.



The stump may not tell the whole tale, but if you know your fallers it will tell you who cut it.....they can fill you in on the rest.


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## Metals406 (Jul 25, 2012)

I bet nobody claims her at the family GTG's eh? 

That was nutty!


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## redprospector (Jul 25, 2012)

Metals406 said:


> I bet nobody claims her at the family GTG's eh?
> 
> That was nutty!



Hahaha. I don't think she'll be making any family GTG's for a while. 

Andy


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