# Horse logging article from Boston Globe



## Dalmatian90 (Jan 16, 2011)

Last horse logger lives on his own terms in N.H. - The Boston Globe


----------



## 371groundie (Jan 16, 2011)

well that painted the forest industry in a negative light. cute story, but didnt represent the mondern forest industry in the north east well at all. mostly sterotypes about clear cutting short rotation. 


ive met Mr. Plowden, wonder what he thinks about the story.


----------



## floyd (Jan 16, 2011)

Everyone does not have a burning desire to feed the mill.

Maybe you missed the part about it being a niche market. 

Some landowners aren't interested in seeing the effects of machinery in their woodlot. The volume they want removed may not pencil out for a machine logger.


I would hazzard a guess John knows Rick.


----------



## LumberjkChamp (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks for linking that article. Well written. Though it would have been slightly more romantic if instead of "rip starting" his chainsaw he broke the morning silence with the high keening sound of a razor sharp crosscut saw while starting the difficult process of undercutting a tree by hand. But, really, no harm done. A good read. I enjoyed it.


----------



## TMFARM 2009 (Jan 16, 2011)

thats a logger with a hard work ethic.. it takes a lot to use horses for any thing.
they alone are work for most people...neat article.


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 16, 2011)

Typical city slicker written article - paints clearcutting in a negative light once again.

Oh, and there is no blade on a chainsaw :monkey:


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 17, 2011)

An unfortunate urban romantic account of a very tiny niche in harvesting.

Horse logging is an incredible skill that few have. There are many realistic problems with using horses for harvesting for woodlot owners.

First is the impact on the land. The small footprint of hooves is far greater that the 2 ' wide harvester (Timberjack) tracks, or even full size skidder wheels with chains.
We use mechanized gear because of less ground damage.

Second, horses cannot work wet, rocky, or hilly terrain. Snow depths much over a couple of feet are tough on the animals.

Third, on larger, long term harvests, your gear can sit overnight in place ready to work the next morning. Horses not, they need to be sheltered, returned to the barn.

Fourth, the work done by one feller and horses is long and tedious. The net BTU use is higher with animals than gear doing the job faster, more efficiently.

The article does the straw dog ( explanations online for those who don't understand :thinking about "clear cutting". It hasn't been done in the northeast for decades on any kind of scale. More common are patch cuts, or corridor harvests, leaving trees we mark for later crops.

Most skilled harvester ( fell, delimb, cut, carry ) operators leave the same paths as horse loggers, as well as selectively cut.

Comments ?

JMNSHO


----------



## John Ellison (Jan 17, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> First is the impact on the land. The small footprint of hooves is far greater that the 2 ' wide harvester (Timberjack) tracks, or even full size skidder wheels with chains.
> We use mechanized gear because of less ground damage.
> 
> Comments ?
> ...


 
Have you ever actually ever been around a horse logging job?


----------



## ChainsawmanXX (Jan 17, 2011)

We use horses to extract alot of our timber, We can use a skid trail all day and there is barely any trail there haha. 
Loved his comment though "Make alitte, spend less."


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 17, 2011)

John Ellison said:


> Have you ever actually ever been around a horse logging job?



Three jobs ( 3 ) in the past 6 years. Why ask ? *Why the H would I even mention it if there was no experience.* What's up John ?

Since you're challenging some facts and experience, how about your experience with horse logging ? Arkansas ain't here BTW. :messed:

Discuss facts rather than attack personally: footprint, energy use, timeline, your actual ("actually") use of horses for harvesting in a region with snow, boggy ground, bony woodlands, hills. Not warm flatland.

There are 2 horse loggers in this area. It is a definite sideline, hired out for landowners wanting to "make a green statement" not harvest for forest management, or profit. The 2 guys know this. Their draft animals are used on their farmland.

What is not understood is why so many of you online here get bent out of shape defensive. They're only opinions: some scratched online ( huh ? ), and some from real world, on the ground life. 
Hey, it's virtual.:musical-note:


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 17, 2011)

ChainsawmanXX said:


> We use horses to extract alot of our timber, We can *use a skid trail all day and there is barely any trail there haha*.
> Loved his comment though *"Make alitte, spend less."*



Guess the logs are levitated.:confusedn:

What do your animals use for fuel ? Cost ? Winter feed ? Vet care ? Shoes ?
Transport (trailer)? Damage to that skid trail wet or unfrozen ?

What's "alitte" ?


----------



## PB (Jan 17, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> An unfortunate urban romantic account of a very tiny niche in harvesting.
> 
> Horse logging is an incredible skill that few have. There are many realistic problems with using horses for harvesting for woodlot owners.
> 
> ...


 
I have to disagree about ground damage. A single tire spin from a ringed tire will do more damage than running a team of horses over a piece of ground several times. I spend a lot of time in logged woods and have never seen skid trails as narrow or clean as horse trails. The PSI for a horse may be worse, but that is only the area of a hoof print every few yards compared to a constant pressure from a tire or track. 

For large operations, there is no comparison of mechanized vs. horses. Horses are used in small woodlots to reduce the impact on the soil and maneuver around tight spaces and limit the need for large skid trails. 

Horse logging is quite common back in PA for hardwood logs. I have seen it done several times and helped on one job and cut firewood with another. You are talking about a specific situation, you even say so, but your broad generalizations fall short of the truth. 

Carry on fellow Mainah (I'm just a transplant).


----------



## horseloger (Jan 17, 2011)

Hey log butcher I think you should check your facts before throwing rocks ! Number one if you read the address of chainsaw man xx its Missouri not Arkansas although they are plenty of good horse loggers in ark,! Number two you wish too address the cost of horse logging verses s conventional logging, here it is the total cost for feeding vet and horse shoeing is no more than 400.00 per month there is no carbon used too produce the the fuel the horses regenerate there waste back too nature and reproduce there own food can your skidder do that? The foot print of a skider is two foot wide and it destroys more regeneration than it ever saves in compression and we all know what the ruts are like when a skidder goes through the woods ! It cost at least 500.00 in our area too move equipment and I carry my horses back and forth with me going from thee house to the woods and back ! This is a expense I would have too pay regardless and it allows me too carry all my gear with me in the horse trailer so I have almost all my tools and drill press welder oil gas and spare parts with me if something breaks I don't have to travel to town to get it fixed! That is a huge savings! I am not chained to my business my equipment is payed for and if I want too take a day or two off I can without worrying about making that huge skkider payments, and I have no problems finding more work and better timber because all I have too do is show pic of my last job and people jump at the chance to have us work there property! Although there is no way that the horse can skid out as much as a skidder can the bennefitts of using horses out way the extra timber the skidder will produce, and will far out way the damages that a skidder crates! 
As far as working the animals on hilly rocky ground we live in the Ozark mountains some of the hilly est and rockiest terrain in the US and we do it very day, the horses skidd up hill down hill and over rocks and never have a problem we work rain days here and back in my home state of Indiana and where I took my forestry training in Vermont when heavy equipment cant work with out damaging the soil! And as far as Rick is concerned he has probably twice as much knowledge about logging as the both of us combined!!!!!


----------



## John Ellison (Jan 17, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Three jobs ( 3 ) in the past 6 years. Why ask ? *Why the H would I even mention it if there was no experience.* What's up John ?
> 
> Since you're challenging some facts and experience, how about your experience with horse logging ? Arkansas ain't here BTW. :messed:
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, I should not have used the word actually. Hahaha, I'll try not to get all bent out of shape and defensive.

I just see that ground inpact comment a lot by people that have never been around animal extraction.
I have no experience with horse logging, but I logged with mules from 98 to 08 here in central Arkansas.
I did not read the article mentioned and am not commenting on it. Your right, Arkansas is not Maine or ?
I used them in very little snow, but they were on plenty of rocks and occaisonal steep ground. They were usually smart enough to stay out of wet and boggy ground.

I have never tried to say that horse/mule logging is the answer to every logging situation. I talked myself out of quite a few jobs when I told the landowners that thay should have machine logging done for what they wanted.
It all depends on the situation, but there are certain jobs that can be done with animals that the only way it could happen mechanicaly with the same footprint/impact is with small tractors. I dont think you will find any horselogger that is trying to say their way is the answer to every job. There are a lot of disadvantages and problems to logging with animals. Some people are not willing to work with them. A crappy job can be done with animals the same as machines.

I don't think that anyone that has been around a lot of logging can say that a good horselogging job in the right situation is anything other than LOW impact. 
Forget all the reasons not to do it (production, transporting, training the animals and finding/making the tools needed)etc.
I got into it because I wanted to work in the woods with animals. Was'nt out to save the planet. There is a horse logger on the west co. Gregg Caudell. Another logger asked him why he wanted to fool around working with horses. He replied "Because I can". I like that.

Also, there are a lot more horse/mule loggers around than you think. Its just not obvious.


----------



## ChainsawmanXX (Jan 17, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Guess the logs are levitated.:confusedn:
> 
> What do your animals use for fuel ? Cost ? Winter feed ? Vet care ? Shoes ?
> Transport (trailer)? Damage to that skid trail wet or unfrozen ?
> ...


 
Nope that just plain old flat dragging. 
To answer your question on fuel... its not as much as your skidder is =D hhaha
Cost.. couldn't be as much as the parts for a skidder 
transport... Like seriously.. come on I can pull 2 horses with a 1 ton. Although yea you can pull a small skidder with one but they wouldnt be as much wear and tear as a 7ton skidder.


----------



## Mike Van (Jan 17, 2011)

Here's some real horse logging, circa 1955. My uncle Pete is on the right, I'm the 4 year old in the middle, my sister Vicki is on the left. There was a 20 acre woodlot about a half mile from the farm here. My grandfater had a Farmall H but it never went up there, only the horses. Pete had his leg broken a few years before this photo from a rolling log. This was all for firewood, the only heat in the farmhouse was a huge wood furnace & the Andes stove in the kitchen. I've got some more of these somewhere, I'll have to try to hunt them up.


----------



## nba123 (Jan 17, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Hey log butcher I think you should check your facts before throwing rocks ! Number one if you read the address of chainsaw man xx its Missouri not Arkansas although they are plenty of good horse loggers in ark,! Number two you wish too address the cost of horse logging verses s conventional logging, here it is the total cost for feeding vet and horse shoeing is no more than 400.00 per month there is no carbon used too produce the the fuel the horses regenerate there waste back too nature and reproduce there own food can your skidder do that? The foot print of a skider is two foot wide and it destroys more regeneration than it ever saves in compression and we all know what the ruts are like when a skidder goes through the woods ! It cost at least 500.00 in our area too move equipment and I carry my horses back and forth with me going from thee house to the woods and back ! This is a expense I would have too pay regardless and it allows me too carry all my gear with me in the horse trailer so I have almost all my tools and drill press welder oil gas and spare parts with me if something breaks I don't have to travel to town to get it fixed! That is a huge savings! I am not chained to my business my equipment is payed for and if I want too take a day or two off I can without worrying about making that huge skkider payments, and I have no problems finding more work and better timber because all I have too do is show pic of my last job and people jump at the chance to have us work there property! Although there is no way that the horse can skid out as much as a skidder can the bennefitts of using horses out way the extra timber the skidder will produce, and will far out way the damages that a skidder crates!
> As far as working the animals on hilly rocky ground we live in the Ozark mountains some of the hilly est and rockiest terrain in the US and we do it very day, the horses skidd up hill down hill and over rocks and never have a problem we work rain days here and back in my home state of Indiana and where I took my forestry training in Vermont when heavy equipment cant work with out damaging the soil! And as far as Rick is concerned he has probably twice as much knowledge about logging as the both of us combined!!!!!


 
Well said. They are just two completly different ways of logging. The Osarks are short and steep and no inbetween.


----------



## slowp (Jan 17, 2011)

The only horse logging I've been around was in AZ. It was flat ground. The ground was too damp for skidders, I think it was in early Spring. The skidder logger had a horse, and decided to put him to use and did. He kept the horse in a portable corral on the unit. One night, the horse broke out and went home. He couldn't work the next day as he was too tired...kind of like some humans do. 

Even though the ground was wet, they did a good job. The logger lost weight and got in good shape from running with the horse. He was able to move a few logs instead of staying at home moving no logs. 

It wasn't overly productive, nor did anyone expect it to be. It was a case of having a horse and having time to use him.


----------



## LumberjkChamp (Jan 17, 2011)

Mike Van said:


> Here's some real horse logging, circa 1955. My uncle Pete is on the right, I'm the 4 year old in the middle, my sister Vicki is on the left. There was a 20 acre woodlot about a half mile from the farm here. My grandfater had a Farmall H but it never went up there, only the horses. Pete had his leg broken a few years before this photo from a rolling log. This was all for firewood, the only heat in the farmhouse was a huge wood furnace & the Andes stove in the kitchen. I've got some more of these somewhere, I'll have to try to hunt them up.


 
That is a really nice picture. Thank you for posting.


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 17, 2011)

Stihl can't get why too many here are set up those straw dogs. Too damn defensive about the one and only way of getting a job done in the woods. GOL, horse logging, Humbolts.

Horse logging is fine, it's green TO A POINT if you don't have to produce $$$$.

Footprint: NO harvest is done with heavy gear on wet, soft ground here. None. 

When ~400lb tiny hoof hits soft soil where is it going ? We're talking about tracks that are 2' wide each on usually dry or frozen or snowy ground---harvesters. The damage is little if any under those conditions.

Then for production when figuring in a timeline for say a 100a job, the time to complete a managed harvest with a Timberjack harvester may be 30 days. With a horse team, one or two cutters, hauling to a yard, figure at least 3-5 months total. Each fell needs chaining, skidding, bucking, delimbing. Most harvesters do it all in one pass.
Energy costs over time ? Feed, vets, shoes, gear, transport.

Now I don't give a s___ how you want to harvest. Just use your intelligence and listen to other approaches FROM THE REAL WORLD. And, get off ad hominum attacks for simple accounts of other ways. Throw those emotive "rocks" somewhere else.:island:

And you Mr. Slow, time to tell about those PM's ? :go-away:


----------



## horseloger (Jan 18, 2011)

I beg too differ I have logged in the north east on wet soil with horse when no machinery was allow to operate and Missouri has some of the most stringent clear water rules in effect but we operate every day in the spring !And the comment that slowp said was that they logged an area that was too wet for the machinery because they could!
And again tell me you can operate your machinery for 400.00 per month! As I stated before the reason you half too tear the woods up is that you have too make all them payments! I'm not throughing rocks I am stating facts! And I reiterate a machine that is 11 ft wide and 40,000 pounds is going to impact the forest no matter how wide the tracts! My horses are only 4 foot wide and 4200 lbs!
Horse logging is not about production or being green Its about leaving the forest in better shape than when you found it. If we do not we wont have good timber left that our children and grand children can utilize. Why do you think craftsmen will pay the high dollar they do to get old growth timber? Its because we have harvested the woodlands so hard and destroyed most of the good jean stock that was out there by our slash logging practices of the past That there is very few places that you can find good timber is a testament too that!


----------



## horseloger (Jan 18, 2011)

BY the way lumberjkchamp nice picks you can sure move a lot of wood with a scoot like that


----------



## joesawer (Jan 18, 2011)

The whole foot print psi and ground compaction argument is flawed from the start.
Yes a tracked log skidder may only have 7 psi when sitting on flat ground with every inch if the track placed evenly on the ground. In other words that is the minimum footprint psi it can ever have under perfect conditions.
On the other hand what do you think the psi is when it is pulling a maximum turn and it is on its back idlers.
Often the full weight of the machine and its turn and a good bit of horsepower are compacting a few square inches.
Yes a hoof might weigh 400 pound at rest but the downward psi from it will spike much higher while skidding logs.
No machine has the ability to transfer the psi and forward torque as efficiently as a horse or mule or bull.

It is my opinion that ground compaction is nearly a worthless argument anywhere that the ground freezes. Think about it real hard.
Root damage, ruts and regeneration damage on the other hand are much longer lasting damage.

I also have never seen a horse logger trying to compete with mechanized logging on volume. It has a narrow niche that iron cant fill.


----------



## slowp (Jan 18, 2011)

An interesting side note. Weyco has done studies comparing seedling growth between trees planted in compacted skid trails and trees in uncompacted soils. The trees planted in the skid trails were impacted for one or two years. After that, the roots grew out into the non compacted area and growth was equal to that of the neighboring seedlings. 

I still like yarders the best.


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 18, 2011)

Skid trails are good for pine regeneration.


----------



## LumberjkChamp (Jan 18, 2011)

horseloger said:


> BY the way lumberjkchamp nice picks you can sure move a lot of wood with a scoot like that


 
Not my pics. Mike Van's (a little further up in the thread.) I quoted them in my post to make sure that it was obvious that I was appreciative of them being posted. I agree, they are very nice. Sorry for the mishap.


----------



## gink595 (Jan 18, 2011)

Skidding logs with horses definatly leaves less of a impact, I've been around both, skidder trails are alot smaller too. I'm not against either and dont' care either way but thought the comment about Horses leaving a larger foot print was a bit off.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 18, 2011)

But My point is that its not just the ground pressure but the amount of regeneration that is the real problem, as I stated before a 40,000 lb machine thats 11 ft wide dose a lot of damage! 
And if you look at history horses have been used to move a lot of very big logs And a high volume of material has been moved with horses! A good team of horses and teamster can move on average 4000 bf of timber from the woods. Place 4 teams in the woods like that your production moves too 16000 ft a day but your cost for operation is less than 200.00 per day for four teams! And not only that but you produce more jobs for the community that your in! And another thing too think about is whats going too happen when fuel hits 4.50 a gallon?


----------



## horseloger (Jan 18, 2011)

My bad too I didn't look further up gink595 great pics


----------



## gink595 (Jan 18, 2011)

Around here we have a Draft Horse club, so some of the local logging outfits will hire the club to skid logs for them when the landowner doesn't want all the machinery in there, so it's a win, win situation the draft Horse club can actually use their teams and the loggers are able to get timber off of protective landowners


----------



## bunchgrass (Jan 18, 2011)

horseloger said:


> But My point is that its not just the ground pressure but the amount of regeneration that is the real problem, as I stated before a 40,000 lb machine thats 11 ft wide dose a lot of damage!
> And if you look at history horses have been used to move a lot of very big logs And a high volume of material has been moved with horses! A good team of horses and teamster can move on average 4000 bf of timber from the woods. Place 4 teams in the woods like that your production moves too 16000 ft a day but your cost for operation is less than 200.00 per day for four teams! And not only that but you produce more jobs for the community that your in! And another thing too think about is whats going too happen when fuel hits 4.50 a gallon?



Point well made. The other issue, call it GREEN if you want to, is a sustainable harvest. To service the debt on incredibly expensive equipment (both to buy and repair), you need to haul out huge amounts of wood daily. This production helps depress prices so you need to cut more ...... Horse logging doesn't have that overhead driving production.

slowp - I'm sure that Weyco would find that their harvest practices weren't having a negative impact on regeneration and forest regrowth. How about an independent source?

I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods but don't see why there's such animosity towards those horse logging - they're certainly not cutting into the commercial operation's profits.


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 24, 2011)

bunchgrass said:


> Point well made. The other issue, call it GREEN if you want to, is a sustainable harvest. To service the debt on incredibly expensive equipment (both to buy and repair), you need to haul out huge amounts of wood daily. This production helps depress prices so you need to cut more ...... Horse logging doesn't have that overhead driving production.
> 
> slowp - I'm sure that Weyco would find that their harvest practices weren't having a negative impact on regeneration and forest regrowth. How about an independent source?
> 
> I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods but *don't see why there's such animosity towards those horse logging* - they're certainly not cutting into the commercial operation's profits.



Another fine example of setting up *Straw Dogs*. 

No "animosity" at all. Just the facts pro/con concerning other techniques for getting a job done.

The real question should be why so many of you here get bent out of shape when another technique, method, tool, training is even mentioned that isn't your way.
Try "boring". "GOL". "Just a Homeowner" vs pro. Stihl vs Husky. Oil. One fool who posts too often, felt obligated to PM me on my bragging about "...being a Marine" ( Straw Dog again), along with some choice insults. Whew. Guess, this fool didn't take the meds that day. On and on and on. Well, it is the internet; virtual avatars and all. Gee, the most macho sounding here could be 8 year old girls pounding away in their PJ's. arty: 

So take it easy. Lower the tension. Get the job done. Enjoy life. Discuss with intellect from experience. Discuss. We've got the best place to live and work in the world......period. Oh yeah: and thank those who put themselves in harms way for us now and past.

JMNSHO


----------



## bunchgrass (Jan 24, 2011)

Another fine example of setting up *Straw Dogs*.

_In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think this means what you think that it means ...." - a more appropriate term might be scapegoat. The term straw dogs is more accepted as a "philosophy of presenting one mediocre idea, so that the listener will make the choice of the better idea which follows." Time to get a new word._



No "animosity" at all. Just the facts pro/con concerning other techniques for getting a job done.

_When you distort the facts (or just make 'em up), it's hard to believe that it's not driven by some animosity towards the group you're slamming - in this case, the horseloggers._



The real question should be why so many of you here get bent out of shape when another technique, method, tool, training is even mentioned that isn't your way.

_The above statement reflects your comments about horselogging not mine regarding using skidders/forwarders etc - here's part of my OP ".... I, like some others here, believe that skidders etc do have a place in the woods..."_


Try "boring". "GOL". "Just a Homeowner" vs pro. Stihl vs Husky. Oil. One fool who posts too often, felt obligated to PM me on my bragging about "...being a Marine" ( Straw Dog again), along with some choice insults. Whew. Guess, this fool didn't take the meds that day. On and on and on. Well, it is the internet; virtual avatars and all. Gee, the most macho sounding here could be 8 year old girls pounding away in their PJ's. arty: 

So take it easy. Lower the tension. Get the job done. Enjoy life. Discuss with intellect from experience. Discuss. We've got the best place to live and work in the world......period. Oh yeah: and thank those who put themselves in harms way for us now and past.

_WOW! I don't know where the above 2 paragraphs came from. Perhaps some kind of flashback or something because I don't see the relevance. Hope you get better soon._:bulgy-eyes:


----------



## horseloger (Jan 24, 2011)

Bunchgrass, I concur I dont recall anyone saying skidders had no place in the woods! We just pointed out the flaws in the facts that were presented!


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 25, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Bunchgrass, I concur I dont recall anyone saying skidders had no place in the woods! *We just pointed out the flaws in the facts *that were presented!



C'mon guys. No one is threatening your way..no need to get on your high horse :bulgy-eyesanother well worn saying ). "WE" huh ? Who is weeee ?
Look up what exactly a straw dog is as used in the real world.

Grassy you got to get out there, stop taking offense where none is meant; you make a fool out of yourself putting your own meaning into another's words. That, BTW, is the Straw Dog. Ain't real.

Hey, you can join the anti bore/GOL crowd, or the "we don need no stinkin PPE" machitos. How about calling someone.........."homeowner". As if all the virtual pros are homeless sleeping with their 60" saws in their trucks. Some need some dead serious self esteem going. Same old, same old.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 25, 2011)

What was that , did anybody understand half of that? Nobody is on there high horse as I stated we just pointed out the flaws in your train of thought! 
And as far as brunchgrass being out there hes out there everyday making a living doing what he loves!


----------



## ChrisF (Jan 25, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> C'mon guys. No one is threatening your way..no need to get on your high horse :bulgy-eyesanother well worn saying ). "WE" huh ? Who is weeee ?
> Look up what exactly a straw dog is as used in the real world.
> 
> Grassy you got to get out there, stop taking offense where none is meant; you make a fool out of yourself putting your own meaning into another's words. That, BTW, is the Straw Dog. Ain't real.
> ...


 
Uh... you're barely coherent at this point. No offense but what the heck are you on about?


----------



## paccity (Jan 25, 2011)

:dunno:


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 26, 2011)

horseloger said:


> What was that , did anybody understand half of that? Nobody is on there high horse as I stated we just pointed out the flaws in your train of thought!
> And as far as brunchgrass being out there *hes out there everyday making a living doing what he loves*!



It's clear, concise, in the language you should understand. No ASSumptions.

...and BTW, how do you know what Grassy does and is doing ? Work with him/it/her ? Live next door ? 

...and why do too many of you find it difficult to discuss anything without attacks ? There is the crux of what is the issue ? These Straw Dogs of yours just keep piling up. 

Many need more woods time, less on your butts virtually plinging away. Flaws indeed !!!!!!

Now flame.............:clapn:


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 26, 2011)

ChrisF said:


> Uh... you're barely coherent at this point. No offense but what the heck are you on about?


 
Prøve å oppfatte og lese korrekt uten alle denne følelse tyrer. Tak tak.:mad-tongue:


----------



## slowp (Jan 26, 2011)

No thank you.

I will state my opinion that elephants are better than horses for logging...higher payload and decking and maybe even loading capability. But I've only worked in the woods since 1976 so would hardly have any knowledge. I better head out now and get some more experience. :silly:

The cute little Thunderbird Yarder is working on some nahsty ground. I'll try to get some photos so we may compare yarders to ponies....


----------



## horseloger (Jan 26, 2011)

Log butcher, with this point I would agree that elephants would be better than horse if you could get them in the US! But alas that is the case no body here knows how to train them ether and if you brought over trainers from India you would have problems with peda, so i dont think that is a real obtainable idea!
And as far as what bunchgrass is doing yes I know him personally as well as what he is doing and I can assure you he is no sit on his butt type of guy! As for my self I have a crew running everyday and have been in this business for 37 years , And most of that time I have been self employed and managing my own show! And at you dont last that long if you been sitting on your but in this business! 
And slowp I no that your cute little yarder can move a lot of wood but look at the aftermath true you guys replant after a operation but the wood you grow is no where near as good as what was there original! As I stated before why are the japs and other foreigner buyers as well as highended buyers in the us paying more for the old growth wood its because its had time to mature ! You are feeding a corporate system that keeps you in dept so that you have to produce for them, so they can sell there machines and parts at a over inflated price and they engineer those machines and prices so that you have to buy new to keep up! So instead of living interdependently as most of us loggers think we do we have a master that whips us into line and deter mens what we make in the from of price fixing and sale manipulation!


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 26, 2011)

Now there is a practical technique to put this discussion to bed : *elephants*. 
Brilliant .
Hey, even those PNW pros would love them. Large, strong, heavies. :male-fighter1:

So the choice is : diesel or manure. :confusedn: What a choice: you can make Straw Dogs out of manure, but diesel ?

Done. The End.


----------



## slowp (Jan 26, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Log butcher, with this point I would agree that elephants would be better than horse if you could get them in the US! But alas that is the case no body here knows how to train them ether and if you brought over trainers from India you would have problems with peda, so i dont think that is a real obtainable idea!
> And as far as what bunchgrass is doing yes I know him personally as well as what he is doing and I can assure you he is no sit on his butt type of guy! As for my self I have a crew running everyday and have been in this business for 37 years , And most of that time I have been self employed and managing my own show! And at you dont last that long if you been sitting on your but in this business!
> And slowp I no that your cute little yarder can move a lot of wood but look at the aftermath true you guys replant after a operation but the wood you grow is no where near as good as what was there original! As I stated before why are the japs and other foreigner buyers as well as highended buyers in the us paying more for the old growth wood its because its had time to mature ! You are feeding a corporate system that keeps you in dept so that you have to produce for them, so they can sell there machines and parts at a over inflated price and they engineer those machines and prices so that you have to buy new to keep up! So instead of living interdependently as most of us loggers think we do we have a master that whips us into line and deter mens what we make in the from of price fixing and sale manipulation!


 
Kumbayah Campers! Remain calm. I did not mean to insult you. Each method has its niche. Horses in your area, yarders, skidders, and helicopters here.

I am not a logger, I am a forester that works closely with loggers, and sees that they are doing what is expected and also doing some damage control when they can't do what is expected.

We thin. Commercially thin younger stands. The one that the cute yarder is in, is in an area that was burned over by a forest fire in the early 1900s. The CCC boys replanted quite a bit, and other parts came back naturally. 

A lot of folks believe incorrectly that you cannot thin with a skyline. It has been done here since at least the early 1980s. Results vary with the prescription, terrain and logger skill. The latter has improved immensely.

I am aware of only one manufacturer that still makes yarders. So, there is no need to constantly replace them. Parts yes. Since they are logging steep ground, the trees are cut by chainsaw, and usually have to be bucked and limbed by the fallers as well--where I work. Yarding tree length can pose problems in thinnings, so there is no need for a processor--and yes, there are exceptions to this also. A loader is needed, trucks and a crew. 

Our local mill buys a lot of logs, corporation or not, they employ a lot of folks and contribute a lot to our community. They are the main employer here. There used to be several sawmills, but we know that story.

That's how it is. I personally like skyline logging. It takes some planning, some grunt work, and I like the cheery whistles. It keeps me in some semblance of shape because I have to go up and down each corridor and spray paint on the extra trees to be cut for the openings. Corridors run ten to twelve feet wide and most non woodsy people can't even see them afterwards.

That's just me. There is no perfect all around logging method. I used the term ponies because ingrained in my brain is a little Shetland Pony that was yarding out four foot lengths of wood for his family. They took him out to the woods a few times each year, to earn his keep and bring in the firewood. He worked just like a big horse. I was impressed. Pony logging...whoda thunk?


----------



## horseloger (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes skyline logging can do a great job with out much residual damage and they have there place in rough terrain they are the only way ! But the strip cut logging that is done in most parts of the north west and other parts of the world is going too eventually run us out of good timber !
And yes I know that your local mill buys lots of logs and keeps a lot of people in work and I feel thats A good thing too a point! But as you stated in your post they ran all the competition out of business. And why so they could control all these people by controlling the work in the area !


----------



## slowp (Jan 26, 2011)

horseloger said:


> Yes skyline logging can do a great job with out much residual damage and they have there place in rough terrain they are the only way ! But the strip cut logging that is done in most parts of the north west and other parts of the world is going too eventually run us out of good timber !
> And yes I know that your local mill buys lots of logs and keeps a lot of people in work and I feel thats A good thing too a point! But as you stated in your post they ran all the competition out of business. And why so they could control all these people by controlling the work in the area !



Another misunderstanding. There used to be three mills in this area. Then the crunch hit. The *Spotted Owl *lawsuits. Two of the mills depended on large, old growth sized logs from Federally owned forests. Those were no longer available for cutting, old growth became off limits, the mills closed down. 

An example? This area used to sell 120 million board feet of timber a year. Now it sells 25 million counting firewood. All second growth, no old growth. Something had to give and mills had to shut down. 

They did not retool. The surviving mill was already tooled up for smaller diameter logs and is still going although it has changed hands. Nobody ran anybody else out of the area, or controlled the work in the area. Logs also are trucked to mills that are out of our area, sometimes three hours away.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 26, 2011)

But did not the spotted owl issue become a factor because of the depletion of the old growth forest? And what happened to all the little mills that were prevalent in the 50 and 60tys most were bought up and or ran out with practices as I described before ! And with them went the independent logger just as they did with the small farmer and the Indians its the same old story, get them in dept more and more untill they cant pay and then take what they have left!


----------



## slowp (Jan 27, 2011)

The old growth was not depleted. A lot got cut, yes. And no, the mill closings had the opposite effect. The larger mills had their own logging crews and they were union crews. When ownership changed, as it did in the case of our local mill, those crews were fired and the work was let out to the smaller, cheaper, independent Gypo loggers. 

I do not know if that is a good or bad thing.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 27, 2011)

I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit! 
The same can be said for the new management getting rid of the unions and hiring the gepo crews . They did this so they can control these crews, it was harder to get the union crews to work for less money! I bet they offered to finance most of these crews when they set them up by doing that and being the only mill in the area without a long truck gave them the power to shut the door until they get the consesions that they want! Thats why the unions were put into place in the first place because the lumber barrens were doing the same thing back then that they are doing today and people got together and put a stop to it!


----------



## slowp (Jan 27, 2011)

You have no idea what has gone on here. Unlike a lot of places, our area grows trees.
That should be the main crop here. We have excellent conditions for growing forests.
Fantastic conditions.

No, the clearcutting did not degrade the land. Our area is lush and productive. Even if the areas were not planted, they would grow back to the first seral species which is Red Alder. 

My land and house are on forested land. It is a constant battle to keep the alder from taking over. In fact, I've let it close in a bit. Naturally. No planting. 

Geesh. If you looked at the growth rings on an old growth tree, you'd see similar growth to the replanted and young native stands in the beginnings. You cannot compare young second growth to old growth. The two are totally different. If left to grow, for a couple hundred years, that second growth would equal the old growth in quality. 

Douglas-fir, which is the primary species here, grows best after a disturbance. You'll find that this area has had forest fires in the past, which cleared the way for Doug-fir to grow. 

Around here, old growth trees do not live forever. Look at the Mt St Helens blast area. Look up the history of forest fires. Douglas fir is an early seral species. It arrives on the scene after the alder has started. Alder is a nitrogen fixer. 

Our ground does not "gully out". Our soils are volcanic and have lots of organics in them. Landslides will occur in both uncut old growth and plantations. The land recovers quickly in most areas. We do have unstable areas, which are going to slide no matter what. 

Our area is prone to natural disasters. We have volcanic eruptions, slides, floods, fires, earthquakes. Doug-fir is tailor made to grow in openings caused by those. If we imitated nature, so be it. 

As to the mills paying the gypos to start up operations? That's a good one. Maybe when they auctioned off the equipment to the public, that could be considered subsidizing?


----------



## Gologit (Jan 27, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit!
> The same can be said for the new management getting rid of the unions and hiring the gepo crews . They did this so they can control these crews, it was harder to get the union crews to work for less money! I bet they offered to finance most of these crews when they set them up by doing that and being the only mill in the area without a long truck gave them the power to shut the door until they get the consesions that they want! Thats why the unions were put into place in the first place because the lumber barrens were doing the same thing back then that they are doing today and people got together and put a stop to it!


 
Have you ever logged out here on the Left Coast? Have you ever traveled this part of the country enough to really see how much timber is gone and how much is left? If not, maybe it's time you did.
I can take you to places that my grandfather logged in the late 1920s and you can see for yourself how much actual regeneration there is. There's an amazing stand of timber there now. If you get out this way I'd be glad to take you on a tour.
Were mistakes made in the old days that scarred the land and caused harm? Yes there were. But those days are long gone...and we've learned from them. Even on our own ground we're held to an extremely high standard when it comes to how we treat the land. We very often spend as much, or more, time on preventing stream siltation and soil erosion during and after a timber sale than we do on the actual harvest itself.

And the big timber barons? They've always been around. If you read back through the history of the logging business you'll see that nothing much has changed. There's still plenty of room for the small independent logger.

The biggest timber company in California employs no actual loggers. None. Every log that comes down the hill was cut by independent logging outfits. Some of them are big outfits...some of them aren't, but they're all independent.

And you're right about it all being about profit. That's exactly what it's about. And it should be. We're not in this business for fun. But we can easily hit a good compromise between profitable logging and responsible logging. We can still make a buck and be good stewards of our land. We can...and we do...every day.


----------



## paccity (Jan 27, 2011)

:agree2:


Gologit said:


> Have you ever logged out here on the Left Coast? Have you ever traveled this part of the country enough to really see how much timber is gone and how much is left? If not, maybe it's time you did.
> I can take you to places that my grandfather logged in the late 1920s and you can see for yourself how much actual regeneration there is. There's an amazing stand of timber there now. If you get out this way I'd be glad to take you on a tour.
> Were mistakes made in the old days that scarred the land and caused harm? Yes there were. But those days are long gone...and we've learned from them. Even on our own ground we're held to an extremely high standard when it comes to how we treat the land. We very often spend as much, or more, time on preventing stream siltation and soil erosion during and after a timber sale than we do on the actual harvest itself.
> 
> ...


:agree2: wait for it.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 27, 2011)

Yes I have been out there and have done some logging out there in the early eighty's and what I have seen has done nothing but discussed me and as far as knowing what Im doing I have a four year forestry degree as well as 30 years in the field ! ! You do have perfect soils for regeneration but the quality of the timber remains the same I cant count how many times I have heard contractors tell me that the wood they received form the west coast and the south was of poor quality and nothing like the wood we used to use as recently as the 80s ! And I cant sell them poplar or soft maple lumber for construction lumber because of agency stamps that Weyerhauser and Potlatch made practicably imposable to get Even plywood dose not last as long or is of the quality that it once was. I come from a family that has been in the wood and lumber business for generations too and they all feel the same way that I do!
I am not trying to pick on the west coast I feel this is nation wide and it is not caused by the hard working men in the field but is done at the coperation level there again to gain profits ! And you may be lucky to have a mill around that dosnt operate in this manor but there are a lot of mills that do!And most of them are corporate giants ! And tell me that the tree that they planted back in the 30tys are equal too the timber that was removed 
We can debate this all day but the fact remains that the general public dose not look at it this way ! And if you guys are all working out there why do I see so many gripping about not having work why do they not go out and get these large corp. to let them work independently they supply the yarders and the locals supply the crews? I know there is a slump in the housing market here but china is rebuilding and so are other country's I have inquiry's everyday from overseas brokers that want dimension lumber! And yes there was mistakes made in the past and that is what brought on the spotted owl thing and yes they are making great strides towards getting away from those practices but it will take years to repair the damage done to our industrie in the name of profit! And yes we need profit but my point is most of the profit goes to the big boys and not to the hard working guys in the field !


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 27, 2011)

horseloger said:


> I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit!
> !


 
Old growth doesn't stay old growth forever :monkey:

Managing old growth for a "perpetual state" - as many environmentalists will have you believe is possible - is a forlorn hope. It's impossible.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 28, 2011)

That is a missnomer too, old growth timber can be managed and should be! By selecting the timber that is overmature and damaged to the point that it is no longer produceing new growth and thining out trees that are to closely spaced can be done on any wood specices. There are many land owners on the west coast and iner mountian region doing so with great scucsess!
And there too are many horse logging opperations on the west coast and they do a wonderful job of thing out trees in this mannor!


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 28, 2011)

Lunch break......getting the skid paths rid of the 2 feet of snow. 

At last, you usual suspects are finally discussing intelligently. No girlish tantrums, no ad hominum attacks ( PM or otherwise Slowp ), no Straw Dogs ( such as boring or GOL or horse logging), none of the prozac anger at other opinions. About time.


Keep it up. It's what discourse based on experience and reality should be.

He likes it.


----------



## Gologit (Jan 28, 2011)

logbutcher said:


> Lunch break......getting the skid paths rid of the 2 feet of snow.
> 
> At last, you usual suspects are finally discussing intelligently. No girlish tantrums, no ad hominum attacks ( PM or otherwise Slowp ), no Straw Dogs ( such as boring or GOL or horse logging), none of the prozac anger at other opinions. About time.
> 
> ...


 
Well, what a nice thing to say. I'm sure your approval is just as important to everyone else involved in this discussion as it is to me.

A lot of people on here considered you to be recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time. They considered your opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.
Most of us, including myself, had you figured for something of a jack-ass. We were wrong.
Your're not something of a jack-ass after all...you're a _total and complete_ jackass.

But thanks for the nice words, anyway. We all feel so much better now that we've made you happy.


----------



## paccity (Jan 28, 2011)

ha!


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 28, 2011)

Gologit said:


> Well, what a nice thing to say. I'm sure your approval is just as important to everyone else involved in this discussion as it is to me.
> 
> A lot of people on here considered you to be recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time. They considered your opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.
> Most of us, including myself, had you figured for something of a jack-ass. We were wrong.
> ...


 
Nice girl, nice. Now go out and play, beat your dog, or...................... 

All those sweet words. Such intense all-knowing. Such concentrated semantics. Much have taken a long spell with Webster's. I am happy...now that you're concerned.:excruciating:

Too bad. Back to your group rant girl. Too bad. Time out.


----------



## paccity (Jan 28, 2011)

:dunno:


----------



## floyd (Jan 29, 2011)

You should quit while you are ahead. It is obvious by your posts you do not have a clue about animal powered logging.That is OK. It is not for everyone. 

But now you have confirmed you need to get out more. Instead of manning up & learning from some criticism you took the low road.

Perception is all there is.


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 29, 2011)

Gologit said:


> *recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time.*
> *opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.*
> 
> *you're a total and complete jackass*.
> ...



:doh: Dear Bobbi and gang :
Sounds like you and the gang have some difficulties ( "flawed logic" 
and those "emotions" ) . Sorry about that.
Oh, and get that "experience level" up to standard.
Get better soon.
LB

P.S. Can I join your "Panties in a Wad" group ? Some cumbaya .


----------



## hammerlogging (Jan 29, 2011)

This horse logging debate is, sometimes, tiring.

But it is an interesting concept as well. When I am looking at a unit, I look at how it ought to be cut (silviculture), how it will be cut (economics) how it ought to be logged (harvest sytem), and how it CAN be logged given certain factors like harvest systems available, and social scrutiny. 

Different systems have diffferent advantages and disadvantages, there are physical and economical limitations to different tracts. Appealing to a landowner's emotions (i.e. got to log with horses) is no more respectable or appropriate than appealing to fear (i.e. arborist suggesting tree removal because needs work....) I will use logic and education rather than selling my opinion or appealing to one's emotional preferences. Social constraints to real forestry are real, how we deal with them is up to those of us participating in the industry. 

If you want to do the best for the land, the forest and the landowner, look at what % of the job will be recieve significant disturbance from which harvest sytem, which harvest sytems will allow for the best application of silviculture, often with a restorative element forthose with mulitple objectives, and whaat will yield the landowner a competitve value for their timber. If we were to supply societal demands for forest products with animal extraction we would have a severley degraded landscape and far a less proportion of the landscape would recieve legit silvicultural prescriptions

If you were to log with horses the places I have cut for yarders, helicopters, forwarder systems, and so forth, you would have extreme environmental degradation. Each system has its place. Almost everywhere I've cut has been cut before and in the good spots, not since the first time it was logged somewhere between after the civil war and about 1910- when all of Appalachia was done and everyone headed to the lake states, then out west. The logging that occurred then (animal, ground skidding......) would NEVER be allowed now due to environmental degredation. Horses and men and water quality were ENTIRELY disposable, it was not romantic.

Animal powered extraction has its niche. Its a very small niche limited severely by $/ton capability which is dicated principally by slope, skid distance, and avg, stem diameter (stand perameters and prescription applied). Other systems can participate in far better restorative forestry across a far more vast proportion of the landscape.

Niche.


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 29, 2011)

Excellent post, Joe!


----------



## logbutcher (Jan 29, 2011)

hammerlogging said:


> This horse logging debate is, sometimes, tiring.
> 
> But it is an interesting concept as well. When I am looking at a unit, I look at how it ought to be cut (silviculture), how it will be cut (economics) how it ought to be logged (harvest sytem), and how it CAN be logged given certain factors like harvest systems available social scrutiny.
> 
> ...


 
Well done: intelligent, science, 'discussable'. 
Thanks.


----------



## hammerlogging (Jan 29, 2011)

So ,what you're saying is this was less inflamatory than 

"My wife says I can hobby around horse logging only after I retire from professional logging"

or, "the last FSC harvest operations audit I participated in, the only logger with significant faults was the horsie guy, who took his system beyond its extremely limited capability"

or, "last time I pulled wood with horsies the owner told me after 3 100' drags to slow down, the little fellas needed a break...."

Yeah, not quite as productive for discussion.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 29, 2011)

And there again hammerlogging you have know idea of what horse logging is all about ! It is not limited by $ per ton nor slope nor skid distance all those factors can be mitigated by proper knowledge and a little elbow grease
Horse's can be used on slopes that no machine will operate except a yarder Skid distances are handled by dragging to trail from the woods and the forwarding with a trailer And as I have stated before two teams of horses can extract the same amount of logs as a skidder in a day with far less residual damage! And then theres the cost of operation I repeat how may of you can operate $13.33 per day per machine that you use? Dose your machinery repair its self? dose your machine replace its self? Horses will reproduce giving you a new machine every 4 years they heal them selfs in most cases! And most teams are usable well into there 20s ! Yes you are right animals, water ways and humans were expendable in the old days but this was so when machinery came on the scene men were mangled and killed in droves. When the d3 and other tracked type machinery first replaced the horse they were rolled, flipped over back wards and so on trying to get the most timber out with out regard to human life or limb or environmental damage, and this was the same case with the old time horse logging ! This has all changed with regulations and commonsense [ at least some people work with commonsense ] and so has horse logging and as far as intelligent science Purdue university Alabama university Arkansas university North Carolina and Kentucky university have all done study s on horse logging and have all come too the conclusion that it is a practical and economical alliterative to mechanical logging !
And what are you guys out there going to do when fuel gets to $5.00 or more per gal and your jobs will be falling like flys because the mills will not be able too pay that type of money on fuel and lower your wages? Why do more and more lumber company's inquirer in to hiring horse loggers ? And why do most land owners want to use horse logging over mechanical logging when they find out they have the choice! 
Man has been using horse's many more years than machinery and has accomplished astronomical projects using draft power so saying it is imposable or not cost effective is totally ignorant


----------



## hammerlogging (Jan 29, 2011)

knock your socks off homeboy!!!


----------



## forestryworks (Jan 29, 2011)

:deadhorse:

This thread is done, the goose is cooked.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 29, 2011)

Its interesting when the facts are presented in a rational manner that the people that oppose the facts want to stop the debate !


----------



## logging-guide (Jan 31, 2011)

*Why fight? We are all loggers*

Whether you use a skidder, yarder, or draft animals. We should use our energy to educate the public. 

For those of you who love using mechanized equipment such as skidders and yarders, that's great! It works for you and there are many things you can do to harvest timber in a responsible and sustainable way. Which is one thing I think we need to educate the public about. Loggers in general are concerned with the forest they work in. After all we want to go back and harvest that same piece of timber again. 

On the other hand I think that there is an incredible opportunity for horse loggers to cash in on the green wave. There is a great horse logging article on about.com explaining just how to do that.


----------



## horseloger (Jan 31, 2011)

Logging- guide, very well put and you are absulutly right and this is what I am trying to convey! This is not about going back and being nostalgic nor is it about something I do in my retirement or for fun ! We do this everyday and we also get inquires from college's across the country to come learn our techniques so young people can place the old technological with the new to create at better way of harvesting timber, then we may go back in as soon as ten years and re harvest ! Not only that but the timber we harvest 10 years from now will be of greater value because of the way we harvested it!


----------

