# Why don't they use skidders and fellerbunchers?



## mercer_me (May 2, 2009)

I know some of the hills they cut on is to steep to have skidders and fellerbunchers, but some of the hills they cut on arn't that steep. They could get wood out alot faster if they used 2 skidders, a buncher, and a prosser. And if they did that they would only have to pay 4 guys, and they would bring in more money. And a companey like J.M. Browning could aford the payments for the equipment.


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## Kunes (May 2, 2009)

mercer_me said:


> I know some of the hills they cut on is to steep to have skidders and fellerbunchers, but some of the hills they cut on arn't that steep. They could get wood out alot faster if they used 2 skidders, a buncher, and a prosser. And if they did that they would only have to pay 4 guys, and they would bring in more money. And a companey like J.M. Browning could aford the payments for the equipment.



well either the hill is steeper than it looks orr they have there other reasons.


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## Humptulips (May 2, 2009)

On the coast we get a lot of rain and skidders make too much mud and are often times pretty helpless. On the flatter ground and some not so flat most guys are shovel logging. Steeper ground is mostly tower logging, skylines and dropline carriages. Farther you go south or inland it's drier so you are more apt to see a skidder. Used to be the wood was often to big for a skidder but not so much anymore.


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## slowp (May 3, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> On the coast we get a lot of rain and skidders make too much mud and are often times pretty helpless. On the flatter ground and some not so flat most guys are shovel logging. Steeper ground is mostly tower logging, skylines and dropline carriages. Farther you go south or inland it's drier so you are more apt to see a skidder. Used to be the wood was often to big for a skidder but not so much anymore.



Right on, and sometimes a processor is used on the flatter ground. A processor can lay the branches in its path to walk on, and won't cause compaction as much doing that. When the skidder drags the log, those branches get dragged out of the way, then it rains, then there's mud and operations get shut down. The Coast Range, where the filming is done, has really good soils-without much rock, and that means it also muds up quick. Best Management Practices list rutting as a concern. We have a limit we go by, any ruts longer than 10 feet or deeper than 6 inches means no skidding that day. But most of our ground is too steep.


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## Burvol (May 3, 2009)

mercer_me said:


> I know some of the hills they cut on is to steep to have skidders and fellerbunchers, but some of the hills they cut on arn't that steep. They could get wood out alot faster if they used 2 skidders, a buncher, and a prosser. And if they did that they would only have to pay 4 guys, and they would bring in more money. And a companey like J.M. Browning could aford the payments for the equipment.



Shovel Logging. Old Bushler was getting pretty good at making me not want to watch him on some steep ground on the Oregon Coast.


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## CJ-7 (May 4, 2009)

Ok, I give. What is shovel logging?


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## CJ-7 (May 4, 2009)

> Ok, I give. What is shovel logging?




Duh-Google it...

Did so and I am confused.. On J.M Brownings site, he references yarders, yet shows an excavator type machine. 

http://www.jmbrowninglogging.com/logging/shovel-logging.htm

On another site it references an excavator type machine only operation.

http://www.g-eng.biz/le/logsys/shovel/shovel.html


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## Humptulips (May 4, 2009)

Shovel logging utilizes a loading machine (your excavator like machine). Almost always hydraulic with grapples. I have seen line machines used in days gone by but that's a thing of the past.
Anyway the macine walks off the road picks up the logs and swings them to the road. When they get more then one throw from the road they pile and then forward the logs towards the road in succesive swings. Can operate with very little ground disturbance and on wet ground they can punchin the road they make to keep themselves afloat. Limitations are steep ground.


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## RPM (May 4, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Shovel logging utilizes a loading machine (your excavator like machine). Almost always hydraulic with grapples. I have seen line machines used in days gone by but that's a thing of the past.
> Anyway the macine walks off the road picks up the logs and swings them to the road. When they get more then one throw from the road they pile and then forward the logs towards the road in succesive swings. Can operate with very little ground disturbance and on wet ground they can punchin the road they make to keep themselves afloat. Limitations are steep ground.



In BC ... same thing, but we call it hoe chucking. The couple of good operators around here are using Madil 1800 log loaders for hoe chucking. On the coast we were using Madill 3800 log loaders (bigger wood).

Skidders also require the use of skid trails depending upon the slope of the block and when you start blading trails (making cuts) the rain fall associated with the wet coast (like Humptulips mentioned) can cause you all sorts of grief. When we get into wet ground here we wait until things freeze and snow in. The tracked machines can also work steeper slopes than a skidder can - around here we hoe chuck the steeper slopes and basically forward the wood to the skid trails for the skidders where it makes sense. In the early 90's before the way of shovel logging / hoe chucking I saw alot of basically flat ground grapple yarded with mobile backspar


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## Mike Van (May 4, 2009)

O.K., I have to ask - What is "humptulips" ? Would that be like a lovesick bear in a flower garden? Or?


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## Gologit (May 4, 2009)

Mike Van said:


> O.K., I have to ask - What is "humptulips" ? Would that be like a lovesick bear in a flower garden? Or?



Check your Washington state map. And be prepared for a nasty letter from the Humptulips Chamber of Commerce.


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## GASoline71 (May 4, 2009)

All kinds of funny names around the Puget Sound and Hood Canal...

Humptulips, Hamma-Hamma, Dosewalips, Duckabush, Nooksak, Quillayute... then there all all the "ish's"... Snohomish, Stillaguamish, Skykomish, Samish, Sammamish, Salish...

The Indians were on some good Peyote whennthey named stuff around here...


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## Mike Van (May 4, 2009)

Thank you -


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## slowp (May 4, 2009)

It is a way we tell if you are an outsider or not. 

Pateros, Puyallup, Methow, and for Oregon, Yachats. There's lots more.


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## Humptulips (May 5, 2009)

Humptulips is as stated a small town but it takes it's name from the Humptulips River. Humptulips is Salish for "hard to pole" as in hard to pole your canoe. I actually live closer to the Quinault but Humptulips is my mailing address.
The Hoquiam which has been featured in the aqua man segments means "river of the dead" I believe. I've heard that that relates to the large number of snags that were along the river in the early days. A result of a subsidense(sp?) quake that drowned the trees in saltwater.


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## Humptulips (May 5, 2009)

RPM said:


> In BC ... same thing, but we call it hoe chucking. The couple of good operators around here are using Madil 1800 log loaders for hoe chucking. On the coast we were using Madill 3800 log loaders (bigger wood).
> 
> Skidders also require the use of skid trails depending upon the slope of the block and when you start blading trails (making cuts) the rain fall associated with the wet coast (like Humptulips mentioned) can cause you all sorts of grief. When we get into wet ground here we wait until things freeze and snow in. The tracked machines can also work steeper slopes than a skidder can - around here we hoe chuck the steeper slopes and basically forward the wood to the skid trails for the skidders where it makes sense. In the early 90's before the way of shovel logging / hoe chucking I saw alot of basically flat ground grapple yarded with mobile backspar



I've heard the term hoe chucking used around here also but used to describe logging with a dirt shovel, bucket and thumb.


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## Mike Van (May 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the info. Not far from me is a brook called Naromiyocknowhusunkatankshunk - I don't know what it means - Hard word maybe?


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## RPM (May 5, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> I've heard the term hoe chucking used around here also but used to describe logging with a dirt shovel, bucket and thumb.



There a couple of guys here that do the same but I have yet to see someone do it well. The inexperienced guys end up busting a lot of wood with the bucket and thumb. The guys running this equipment are getting younger and while they make good processor operators and log loaders (too much joystick and PS2) they haven't run a tracked machine off of a road. As you well know it takes a little experience to finesse a tracked machine up and over steep ground...never mind trying to toss tree around without breaking them or getting yourself all f**ked up. 

These are our smaller operators that don't have a yard full of iron to choose from so we try to place our contractors in the type of wood and logging that suits their equipment profile. We try to match equipment to ground and logging plan ..... almost always. 

Most of the log loaders in these parts run with a heel boom or graple/clam with articulated heads for loading and logging.


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## Humptulips (May 5, 2009)

Pretty much the same around here.
I don't see a heel rack on that Madill. Maybe I'm missing it. Looks like he has a clam instead of grapples.


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## rmihalek (May 5, 2009)

slowp said:


> Best Management Practices list rutting as a concern. We have a limit we go by, any ruts longer than 10 feet or deeper than 6 inches means no skidding that day.



Heck, I used to make ruts like that with my KX250 dirt bike on a good day!


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## 2dogs (May 5, 2009)

Sometimes the yarder moves the grapple cats. I like this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex_PJCPI49w


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## cbolyard (May 7, 2009)

slowp said:


> It is a way we tell if you are an outsider or not.
> 
> Pateros, Puyallup, Methow, and for Oregon, Yachats. There's lots more.



Lets not forget Osoyoos, Twisp, Okanogan (or Okanagan if you're north of the border), Chehalis, Stehekin, hell I've even heard Wenatchee butchered in ways unfathomable to my brain.


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## BC_Logger (May 7, 2009)

Humptulips said:


> Pretty much the same around here.
> I don't see a heel rack on that Madill. Maybe I'm missing it. Looks like he has a clam instead of grapples.



its running a WELDCO-BEALES or a Imac Clam grapple they dont need a heel rack


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## Kunes (May 7, 2009)

whats the advantage of cable skidders from grapple? $$?:arg:


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## Junior (May 7, 2009)

cable skidding requires the operator to leave the machine and set chokers, or have a setter working behind the cat or skidder. Grapple skidding ya back up to the turn and pick it up...


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## Kunes (May 7, 2009)

Junior said:


> cable skidding requires the operator to leave the machine and set chokers, or have a setter working behind the cat or skidder. Grapple skidding ya back up to the turn and pick it up...



i know that that's the difference but why would you ever have a cable than a grapple? so you lose money? or are they significantly cheaper


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## tlandrum (May 7, 2009)

i live in the mtns of east tn and a grapple skidder is about as useless as tits on a boar hog. it takes a dozer with winch and a cable skidder to get the wood of from these steep hills. where i am logging now its so rocky that you cant get within 50 feet of some trees and it takes a cable to get them. i use 5 chokers and a 150 ft cable 3/4 swedged to 5/8 and have a 60000 lb winch on a 30000 lb skidder so usually when you hit the winch the woods a coming to ya and you gone.


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## Junior (May 7, 2009)

Grapples can be faster, but a winchline reaches farther.


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## Kunes (May 7, 2009)

gotcha


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## Junior_M (May 7, 2009)

We choke alot of timber on selective clearing jobs because you tear up so much trying to get the grapple back to the timber. In other words, you knock down 6 young trees with some potential to get one tree thats had its time, that totally kills the selective clearing thing..


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## Kunes (May 7, 2009)

i guess grapplers are good when you have a fellerbuncher and a lot of trees..


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## slowp (May 8, 2009)

Kunes said:


> whats the advantage of cable skidders from grapple? $$?:arg:



Your helpful and friendly forester who is overseeing the job might point out that the contract often requires for skidders to stay on the skid trails, and the skid trails are required to be a minimum of say, 100 feet apart. So, if the feller buncher hasn't placed the bunches right next to the skid trail, you are out of luck. And remember, it is easier to pull line DOWNHILL, so it is best for the ground and you not to locate skid trails in creeks.


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## mercer_me (May 8, 2009)

Kunes said:


> whats the advantage of cable skidders from grapple? $$?:arg:



With a cable skidder you get out and pull you cable to the logs and hook you chokers to the logs. One advantage to cable skidders is the trees can be "skaterd" and not all in a pile like with a graple skidder. Another advantage with a cable skidder is if you start to spin you can let some cable out and drive forward then winch your twich up to you.


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