# Myths and facts of EPA Wood Burning Stoves



## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

I've read with interest a lot of good comments recently regarding high efficiency wood stoves. However there are some myths that I'd like to debunk from a MFG point of view. 

Let me try to dispel some of these myths:

1)	Wood burning appliances no matter what their brand and model do not produce BTU's. Wood has BTU. The more wood you can put in there the more BTU you will get out. If one complains his new wood stove is not heating enough, it must be because the unit was not sized appropriately or the fuel is inadequate (see below)

2)	A pound of wood is worth about 8,000 BTU at 15% humidity. Wood burns best between 15% to 20% humidity. Above that it is considered ‘wet’ and its BTU output is considerably reduced. This is because the first phase of combustion is to eliminate moisture out of the wood. Therefore all the initial caloric energy (heat) has to boil off water first.

3)	Smoke condenses at about 250f. Therefore, because wet wood takes longer to reach gas combustion (visible flames) you will see a lot of smoke until you can get past the 250f limit. The longer it stays below that range the more creosote formation.

4)	Efficiencies are measured in EPA wood stoves with the ‘stack loss’ method. That is, whatever heat is lost in the flue is deducted from the total heat output. Ie. An 85% efficient stove means 15% of its heat is lost in the chimney. This is not bad; you need that 15% to create a draft. Old wood stoves (pre-EPA smoke dragons) were typically in the 40% to 50% efficiency range. To provide enough heat for the house they had a large combustion chamber (more BTU) and a high air to fuel ratio. That is they burned fast.

5)	A wood stove is basically a carburetor. You have fuel and oxygen. You also have a third component – Heat. These three factors must be balanced carefully to provide best efficiencies and burn time. Too rich creates too much smoke and loss of efficiencies. Too lean and the fire burns out of control and burn time is reduced drastically. 

6)	Suggestions on raising the fire with a fire grate actually reduces heat output and affect efficiencies. A grate takes a great deal of space meaning less wood can fit in the stove (less BTU). A grate serves no purpose whatsoever in an EPA stove since the primary air intake feeds oxygen directly to the logs and the secondary air channels feed oxygen to the top re-burn tubes.

7)	Trying to extract more heat from EPA wood stoves with heat reclaiming devices (flue type or water coils etc…) actually degrades the performance of the unit. The unit will take longer to reach optimum temperature and will not stay as long in the ‘sweet spot’ of secondary combustion. This will cause a cooler fire chamber, more smoke, more creosote, incomplete combustion and poor draft.

8)	Your worst enemy is the ‘old guy syndrome…’ _Son, you can’t tell me how to burn wood, I’ve been doing it before you were a glint in your dad’s eye…_ will only make matters worse. The reason your whole way of burning wood must change is the same reason we went from carburetors to fuel injectors or venting old gas appliances versus new gas appliances. The more efficient the unit, the more you have to respect their parameters. It’s a trade-off and you win at the end anyway.

9)	Start your fire with small dry kindling and get a small intense fire going immediately to get your draft established. Then keep adding bigger and bigger dry pieces of wood until the biggest is no bigger than 6” to 8” max. Small splits offer more surface area for gases to escape and charcoal phase to begin. A big round log takes longer to get to temp, moisture has to follow the grain and can only evaporate at either end therefore slowing combustion and increasing creosote. 

10)	Wood stoves are tested and certified for safety by UL. Any attempt at removing parts, drilling holes, modifications etc… immediately voids the UL safety certification and if your house burns down you don’t have insurance.

11)	Wood burning appliances no matter what their brand and model do not ‘draft’. It’s a black square box made out of metal with no moving parts. *I cant repeat this often enough, a wood stove does not ‘draft’.* If you have drafting problems or smoke in the house look at the following: Poor chimney design (this is a whole topic on its own), barometric pressure, temperature differential, length of chimney, house under negative pressure, wet wood and many other factors but almost never a wood stove problem. 

12)	If you really want to be entertained, there is nothing quite like a chimney fire. Let’s hope it’s not at your house!

In conclusion, the difference between a new EPA high efficiency wood burning appliance and the old one is the new appliance controls the combustion a lot tighter. Both will output the same BTU per pound of wood. However, the old one will burn a lot faster and waste over 50% of its energy in the chimney. The new EPA stoves on the other hand will control and optimize the combustion for a clean, efficient and long lasting burn.

If you want more heat get a bigger stove. 

Your best friend is a wood moisture meter and a straight up chimney (that’s what she said!)

Hope this helps


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Good one. Real thorough. A good read. We manage to derail the EPA agenda here with the Heatmor 200 Outdoor Wood Boiler. I'm a proponent of the* LABL* Society. (Load A Bigger Log.)


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time and effort to write that up. Maybe it will edjumacate some people.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

> * 1) Wood burning appliances… do not put out BTU's. Wood has BTU…*


Why then, are they given a BTU _output rating_?



> * 2) …Wood burns best between 15% to 20% humidity. Above that it is considered ‘wet’ and its BTU output is considerably reduced...*


Exactly how much is “considerably” anyway?



> * 4) …An 85% efficient stove means 15% of its heat is lost in the chimney…*


Is that with the stove set on high, low, or somewhere in between? Any wood? Any moisture content? Any size fuel load? Or just the wood and quantity they tested it with?



> * 5) A wood stove is basically a carburetor…*


Hmmmm…… I would classify it as more like the engine the carburetor is bolted to.



> * 6) Suggestions on raising the fire with a fire grate actually reduces heat output and affect efficiencies. A grate takes a great deal of space meaning less wood can fit in the stove (less BTU). A grate serves no purpose whatsoever in an EPA stove since the primary air intake feeds oxygen directly to the logs…*


Wow, that’s quite an assumption on your part. I know I can remove the brick from the bottom of mine (no longer needed with a grate) and easily build a grate that would not raise the fire one iota. The primary air feeds oxygen _directly_ to the logs? How does it do that?



> * 7) Trying to extract more heat from EPA wood stoves with heat reclaiming devices… will cause a cooler fire chamber, more smoke, more creosote, incomplete combustion and poor draft.*


Let’s come back to this in a minute.



> * 8) Your worst enemy is the ‘old guy syndrome…*


OMG… I’m my own worst enemy!



> * 9) Start you fire with small dry kindling…*


Naw, I’m stickin’ with an accelerant…



> * 10) Wood stoves are tested and certified for safety by UL. Any attempt at removing parts, drilling holes, modifications etc… immediately voids the UL safety certification and if your house burns down you don’t have insurance.*


And we have another insurance expert. Funny thing, I’ve made several wood burning appliances from scratch (no UL certification at all), modified a few others, my insurance “guy” was fully aware… and I’ve always had insurance. How can that be?



> * 11) Wood burning appliances… do not ‘draft’… I cant repeat this often enough, a wood stove does not ‘draft’.… almost never a wood stove problem.*


I’m totally confused… #7 says if I modify my stove with a heat reclaiming device it won’t draft properly… and now you’re saying a stove doesn’t draft at all. Really, I’m totally confused.



> * 12) If you really want to be entertained, there is nothing quite like a chimney fire...*


Cleans-up the inside of the chimney real good too.



 Ya’ know? Sometimes I have way too much fun for my own good.


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## trophyhunter (Nov 16, 2012)

Spider I know your EPA stove gives ya fits, why not just donate it and we'll get the welder out to make you happy? 

Man I love my EPA stove, second one (non cat) variety and once I learned how to burn them correctly I cut my wood consumption in half. I enjoy processing all that wood to a degree, but there's a shortage of cartilage in some pretty critical joint's these days.


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## slowp (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Wow, that’s quite an assumption on your part. I know I can remove the brick from the bottom of mine (no longer needed with a grate) and easily build a grate that would not raise the fire one iota. The primary air feeds oxygen _directly_ to the logs? How does it do that?



Look at your stove. Mine has an air inlet at the front. The air is piped in from the outside--under the house. If I accidently block that, the fire won't burn very well. The only grate is for cleaning ashes out, and is closed during burning.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

slowp said:


> Look at your stove. Mine has an air inlet at the front. The air is piped in from the outside--under the house. If I accidently block that, the fire won't burn very well. The only grate is for cleaning ashes out, and is closed during burning.



Having you outside air supply is a real good feature. I like you better all the time, P.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Why then, are they given a BTU _output rating_?



Well... you do have to put some wood in it, then burn it, then calculate the various parameters. 

BTU output is a result of the life cycle of the fire. For the EPA testing the heat output is low since its with cribbed softwood in small QTY. For the 'real' life BTU output rating we burn real cordwood.

For both test, you have to weight the wood, measure its moisture content and follow a lab protocol. 

Again, the stove did not produce the BTU but the wood did. The bigger the stove, the more BTU output...


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Exactly how much is “considerably” anyway?



Wood <5% Moisture Approx 8,600 BTU/Lbs
Wood <20% Moisture Approx 6,200 BTU/Lbs
Wood <50% Moisture Approx 4,000 BTU/Lbs

A BTU is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 pound of water by 1oF. Heat from one match stick is about one BTU.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Gassification is the coolest thing going. I wonder though whether the ROI makes it more novelty than reality.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> I’m totally confused… #7 says if I modify my stove with a heat reclaiming device it won’t draft properly… and now you’re saying a stove doesn’t draft at all. Really, I’m totally confused.



You can search with Wikipedia for what draft is. Short answer: temperature differential between air molecules.

If you have a 100% efficient stove it means it means all the heat stays in the house and no natural draft can occur since there is no heat that can escape the flue.

The chimney is the engine that drives draft. 

The purpose of the stove is to have a controlled combustion and exhaust unburned volatile gases and water vapour. 

If you reclaim too much heat from your stove, there is very little heat in your chimney therefore a very weak draft.


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> Well... you do have to put some wood in it, then burn it, then calculate the various parameters.
> 
> BTU output is a result of the life cycle of the fire. For the EPA testing the heat output is low since its with cribbed softwood in small QTY. For the 'real' life BTU output rating we burn real cordwood.
> 
> ...



You may not have done it on purpose, but you started a fight. I hope you stay in it till the end. There will be good info in the insanity to come.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> And we have another insurance expert. Funny thing, I’ve made several wood burning appliances from scratch (no UL certification at all), modified a few others, my insurance “guy” was fully aware… and I’ve always had insurance. How can that be?



What one does with his own stuff is entirely up to them... For my part, i'd rather play it safe.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

trophyhunter said:


> *Spider I know your EPA stove gives ya fits, why not just donate it and we'll get the welder out to make you happy? *



Naw... I wouldn't call it "fits". It's gonna' keep us plenty warm enough, that much I can tell by the heat it cranks out when it gets up to temp.
I'm just gonna' haf'ta get used to a "different" routine, and get used to a couple things that are an inconvenience (in my opinion).

I'll tell ya' what... as much work as it was to get that thing moved into the basement, lined up with existing "stuff", set at the proper height, etc., etc., etc... well, I'll be workin' with it a bit before I throw in the towel. If push-comes-to-shove, I'll get the welder out this winter, start from scratch, and do another install next spring. I will say this, the wife likes to take the reflector off the door when she's down in my "man cave" with me (yeah, I let her down there once-in-a-while) and watch the fire... makes her kind'a in the snugly mood, if ya' get my meaning. And at our age, with kids still at home... If nothin' else, that's probably worth a couple inconveniences.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

stihly dan said:


> You may not have done it on purpose, but you started a fight. I hope you stay in it till the end. There will be good info in the insanity to come.



This dude is showin' some advanced product knowledge. Most salesmen today don't even bother remembering your name.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

stihly dan said:


> *You may not have done it on purpose, but you started a fight. I hope you stay in it till the end. There will be good info in the insanity to come.*



Naw... no fight, no insanity to come.
Just tryin' to yank *Fyrebug's* chain a bit.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> I will say this, the wife likes to take the reflector off the door when she's down in my "man cave" with me (yeah, I let her down there once-in-a-while) and watch the fire... makes her kind'a in the snugly mood, if ya' get my meaning. And at our age, with kids still at home... If nothin' else, that's probably worth a couple inconveniences.



You lettin' the cat out the bag now, man. Evr'y body gonna go get 'em a burner. Hehe. 

There's a formula this gorilla can understand: Caveman + Cave Woman x Fire = proliferation of the Human race. I can dig it. Firing it up now, _Family Style_.


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## CTYank (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> You can search with Wikipedia for *what draft is. Short answer: temperature differential between air molecules*.
> 
> If you have a 100% efficient stove it means it means all the heat stays in the house and no natural draft can occur since there is no heat that can escape the flue.
> 
> ...



Uh, nonsense. It's not a TEMPERATURE difference, but a PRESSURE difference, caused by the difference between the weight of a fixed area column of gas in the flue and the same height & area column of ambient gas.

Y'er also crossed up on some non-zero moisture-content of wood being optimum. Not so. Less is more.


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Temp difference is press difference.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

He's crossed-up on a couple of other things also... but hey, who's countin'?
Gotta' give the guy credit for memorizing the, "what to say if...", from the sales meeting.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

stihly dan said:


> *Temp difference is press difference.*



Ooo...Ooo...Oooo... I want in.

Not really. Warmer air expands causing it to expel some mass from the top of the flue... so less mass in the flue, less weight in the flue... less pressure in the flue.
But what if the height of the flue was infinite so the air could expand without losing mass... no matter how hot the air became the weight in the flue would remain constant... hence, no pressure change.
Temperature is the mechanize by which the flue loses pressure, but it isn't the pressure difference.

Just sayin'.


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Why doe's warm air expand? Greater pressure. Is not air still air? only difference is temp, wich changes press. ( expands)


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## trophyhunter (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Naw... I wouldn't call it "fits". It's gonna' keep us plenty warm enough, that much I can tell by the heat it cranks out when it gets up to temp.
> I'm just gonna' haf'ta get used to a "different" routine, and get used to a couple things that are an inconvenience (in my opinion).



They just don't burn like old school stoves, I had fits with mine until I got my head wrapped around how the air intakes supply the fuel, they definitely demand a little more tending to until things are up to temp and running right. 

Hey if it comes to it and you feel like building a new one next year, you can always re-install that door for the Mrs!:msp_biggrin:


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

Air does not expand because of pressure, it expands because of temperature (inflicting artificial pressure will increase temperature, put that's not what we're talkin' about).
If a gas is a sealed container and the temperature increases, then pressure will increase due to the gas trying to expand.
If the container is not sealed the pressure is a direct result of the amount of mass remaining in the container and the force of gravity affecting it... less mass, less pressure.


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## haveawoody (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug

quote "Again, the stove did not produce the BTU but the wood did. The bigger the stove, the more BTU output"


Well no and yes.
Through a 6" chimney pipe this does not prove to be quite true.
You can only ask a 6" pipe to exaust some % more than a smaller stove can.
At some point a bigger rated stove just = more residue in the chimney.

A no brainer that 2 small stoves at 1/2 the btu rating of one big one are much more efficient cleaner better burning stoves than the big one.

JMO


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Air does not expand because of pressure, it expands because of temperature (inflicting artificial pressure will increase temperature, put that's not what we're talkin' about).
> If a gas is a sealed container and the temperature increases, then pressure will increase due to the gas trying to expand.
> If the container is not sealed the pressure is a direct result of the amount of mass remaining in the container and the force of gravity affecting it... less mass, less pressure.



Your making my point. If you heat up anything it expands creating higher press. If something is wide open you can only acheive min press diff either neg or pos, for it is open the mass will disperse into the lower press area's.
I thought this was fyrebugs fight? I have had too many whisky's to fight. I give, and don't care.


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## ss~zoso~ss (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Why then, are they given a BTU _output rating_?
> 
> 
> Exactly how much is “considerably” anyway?
> ...



It's cuz you pour your engine oil on your beautiful stacks!!!!


Hahah, just givin ya ####! Ur ok in my book!


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

Well, I didn't think of it as a fight...
But if'n you're gonna' have another whiskey... well then, I 'll have another also.
But I gotta' tell ya, my bottle is gettin' worrisome low.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Well, I didn't think of it as a fight...
> But if'n you're gonna' have another whiskey... well then, I 'll have another also.
> But I gotta' tell ya, my bottle is gettin' worrisome low.



Are you John Wayne? How come you talk like a cowboy? Aren't you from way up in the Nort? Hahaha. Foolin' We talk like cowboys too.


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## Whitespider (Nov 16, 2012)

Ronald Reagan said:


> *How come you talk like a cowboy? Aren't you from way up in the Nort?*



Well thar partner... let me tell ya'.
I lived a spell in Oklahoma some years back and I reckon a bit of the "cowboy" rubbed off on me.


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## stihly dan (Nov 16, 2012)

Ha, mine too,may have to dip into the tequila. Then I may be ready for a fight. And lose.


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## Gavman (Nov 16, 2012)

Four beers in here, I agree with Fyrebug:msp_biggrin:


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Naw... no fight, no insanity to come.
> Just tryin' to yank *Fyrebug's* chain a bit.



Well at least it's good conversation about a lot of hot air...


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> Fyrebug
> 
> quote "Again, the stove did not produce the BTU but the wood did. The bigger the stove, the more BTU output"
> 
> ...



What's the science behind that??? All of our stoves and furnaces (big combustion chambers) exhaust on 6"... The Max Caddy is 85% efficient more than many of our smaller stoves... Juss saying.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Gavman said:


> Four beers in here, I agree with Fyrebug:msp_biggrin:



I'm gonna get me a Southern Comforts on the rocks!


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> I'm gonna get me a Southern Comforts on the rocks!



Glad you're back, Fryeburg.


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 16, 2012)

haveawoody said:


> Fyrebug
> 
> quote "Again, the stove did not produce the BTU but the wood did. The bigger the stove, the more BTU output"
> 
> ...



Not true. This depends on the efficeintcy of the stoves. My stove is very efficient like lets say 85%. Now if you have two smaller stoves that are not as efficient, lets say 20%, then the larger stove will be more efficient, by 65% versus the two smaller stoves. Now lets consider that a larger stove like mine can be loaded with lots of wood, then controlled and kept at a fuel efficient stage much longer then a smaller stove. Like a car with a 1 gallon gas tank is not going to be as efficient as the same car with a 25 gallon tank. You use more fuel on the initail start up, and getting it up to speed than you do driving down the highway. Same is true for a stove.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

Good grief... it's a sad day when a bunch of guys are discussing burning firewood at 10PM when they could create their own heat with their lovely right about now...


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 16, 2012)

If I had one of them I would be doing some "exercising" about now. However, alass, no such luck for me. Oh and its only 8:30 your clock must be broke!! lol


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## Arbonaut (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> Good grief... it's a sad day when a bunch of guys are discussing burning firewood at 10PM when they could create their own heat with their lovely right about now...



The chimney is standing. See ya tomarrow.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 16, 2012)

EXCALIBER said:


> If I had one of them I would be doing some "exercising" about now. However, alass, no such luck for me. Oh and its only 8:30 your clock must be broke!! lol



It's because you live on the wrong side of the world!

I was in Nebraska last year. Had a good time. Lots of flat land and corn ( not so much corn this year I heard). Lots of good hunting ground. Cant wait to go back.


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 16, 2012)

Tonight I got home tired as all get-out, started a fire in my shop, the fire box is 24” x 32” deep. I grabbed a hand full of dry noodles from that elm log I couldn’t split, packed it in the bottom of that new to me stove, poured a quart of used motor oil over it mixed it up a bit. Lit a match tossed it on the pile oil soaked noodles mixed it up a bit, started loading logs on top, as many as I could. 

It burnt down a bit then I crammed in big as I could get rounds into the stove, fire was good and hot, felt good on my tired old bones shoved more in.

The fire felt so good I left the door open, it was so hot I had to move the chair back, I moved the splitting log over to rest my feet in front of the fire and whet to sleep, that 1980s fenland made stove none EPA heated my shop to 60 deg while the outside is 22.

I need all you guys to buy and use them EPA stoves, Leave more wood for me, I need all the extra wood I can get so I can leave my door open so I can feel the real wood heat fire has to offer, puts me to sleep real quick, and helps me wake up with a smile. It’s a beautiful thing an open fire in your shop/house, a bit of wood smell and lots of wood heat on your feet drying off the old boots.

OK so I’m half awake and relaxed thinking about going back out to my warm NON-EPA heated shop sit in my chair sipping a on a hot cup of coco then kick my boots up on the log and go back to sleep. Nothing but fire lighted shop coco and good NON-EPA Heat. 

Ill be back with a picture


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## Butch(OH) (Nov 16, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> Tonight I got home tired as all get-out, started a fire in my shop, the fire box is 24” x 32” deep. I grabbed a hand full of dry noodles from that elm log I couldn’t split, packed it in the bottom of that new to me stove, poured a quart of used motor oil over it mixed it up a bit. Lit a match tossed it on the pile oil soaked noodles mixed it up a bit, started loading logs on top, as many as I could.
> 
> It burnt down a bit then I crammed in big as I could get rounds into the stove, fire was good and hot, felt good on my tired old bones shoved more in.
> 
> ...




Daggone it I typed me up a fancy know it all reply and came back to post it and you had already stole my thunder,:msp_ohmy:

Even though we run an OWB thereis nothen better for a cold nor flue symtoms than a dastardly non EPA stove near red with about half dry red elm and a little bit of mother natures "coke" also known as hedge and the draft wide open or maybe even the door left cracked a bit. When you feel like I have the last few days I could care less what is going up the chimney, sure felt good on my old bones and the wood shed is over full anyway and still trees going to waste in the woods.


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## EXCALIBER (Nov 16, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> It's because you live on the wrong side of the world!
> 
> I was in Nebraska last year. Had a good time. Lots of flat land and corn ( not so much corn this year I heard). Lots of good hunting ground. Cant wait to go back.



I sure would trade you!! I was born and raised in Montana (western side, Bozeman) and I sure wish I could go back in time and kick my butt for leaving. I would like to see Canada again someday, hopefully on my way to Alaska to live. Right now I am stuck in this corn-holer state, where I am about the only one who goes outside I swear. The rest sit inside watching the boob tube. What part of the backwoods redneck inbred Neb you visit?


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 16, 2012)

*Non-epa*

This is the 2nd load.







Dont get me wrong. 

The stove I have in my house is a wimpy 20 x14inches and heats my 1200 sqfoot house to 80 deg when its -20 outside. with its try to get 2 small split chunks of wood in it 1500 deg firebox.
Go ahead touch that box. burns 6 to 8 hours holds the coals another 12 or 14. ya my home is warm and I only use 2 cords of wood each year could be 3 on a bad year, but its not like sitting in front of a grand ol FIRE.


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## bcorradi (Nov 16, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> This is the 2nd load.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If u only use 2 cords of wood heating with exclusively wood...sign me up I want one .


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## bcorradi (Nov 17, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Damn I've been hanging with a bunch of boozers!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be the designated poster.



You've been the designated poser for a long time so it should work out.


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 17, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> If u only use 2 cords of wood heating with exclusively wood...sign me up I want one .



Bought it used at a yard sale, the guy wanted it gone said it made a mess, ash.
Hersh and knock approved Canada guys I guess. I think its made by VC mod 44e.
not sure too hot to go behind it. 

For the last few years Ive been replaceing doors, windows, walls with insulation. this spring Im installing a ne roof. everything is insulated with new insalation over the old, the guys said the old stuff tends to compress, no since in dumping the old stuff its safe will just add more.

this pace is tight .


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 17, 2012)

*stove*

This is the average fire 2 sticks. and for the last load of the night I toss in a 6" or 8" round log 14" or so inches long, they seem to burn most of the night.


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## bcorradi (Nov 17, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> This is the average fire 2 sticks. and for the last load of the night I toss in a 6" or 8" round log 14" or so inches long, they seem to burn most of the night.



You must not have a good idea what a cord is...if u only burn 2 cords of wood in minot using it exclusively for heat....u can make a lot of money. just sayin.


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## bcorradi (Nov 17, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> Bought it used at a yard sale, the guy wanted it gone said it made a mess, ash.
> Hersh and knock approved Canada guys I guess. I think its made by VC mod 44e.
> not sure too hot to go behind it.
> 
> ...


My pace is tighter than yours and I don't only go through two cords per winter.


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 17, 2012)

bcorradi said:


> You must not have a good idea what a cord is...if u only burn 2 cords of wood in minot using it exclusively for heat....u can make a lot of money. just sayin.



We have had some scammers from out of state selling face cords of popular for full cords,(full Face cords) claiming there full cords. I have done a lot of flyer campaigning 
Informing face cords are not full cords. They are at best a 1/3 of a cord worth 50.00.

I do sell cords some as high as $425.00, but they are special cut for small stoves 
8’ to 12” long and 4’ to 5” across, standard cords 4x4x8 ash, elm, bur oak, 150.00
To 250.00, Delivery 50 to 100.

So again I’m not sure what your trying to imply.


--- 
I should add the 2 cord of wood is for the house alone not the shop, the barn, the tractor barn, the garage or the Quonset. Just the house


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## flyboy553 (Nov 17, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> ---
> I should add the 2 cord of wood is for the house alone not the shop, the barn, the tractor barn, the garage or the Quonset. Just the house




Geez! You heat all of those buildings? No wonder there are no trees in N Dak! :hmm3grin2orange:

Ted


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2012)

Crap! I hit-the-sack way too early last night (8:00 o-clock) and missed some of the fun.
Lookin' at this picture, I'm pretty sure there's gonna' be times I'll really miss the ol' smoke dragon... damn!



NDtreehugger said:


>


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## brenndatomu (Nov 17, 2012)

NDtreehugger said:


> This is the 2nd load.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 cords! Heck, there's 1/2 a cord in there now!! :hmm3grin2orange:


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## haveawoody (Nov 17, 2012)

fyrebug,
excaliber,

Think about the mechanics of it.

You have two small stoves that burn at 85% but burn at 1/2 the btu of the big stove that burns at 85%.
The combination of 1 big stove or two small stoves burn the same amount of wood but the two stoves are dumping more heat into the house from the second set of chimney pipe in the living space.

As long as you load the same wood in all, the little guys will give more heat in the same space.
Tradeoff is now you got two darn stoves to clean and load and start. LOL


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## Arbonaut (Nov 17, 2012)

Del_ said:


> Damn I've been hanging with a bunch of boozers!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be the designated poster.





bcorradi said:


> You've been the designated poser for a long time so it should work out.




*DING* Nails it.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 17, 2012)

EXCALIBER said:


> I sure would trade you!! I was born and raised in Montana (western side, Bozeman) and I sure wish I could go back in time and kick my butt for leaving. I would like to see Canada again someday, hopefully on my way to Alaska to live. Right now I am stuck in this corn-holer state, where I am about the only one who goes outside I swear. The rest sit inside watching the boob tube. What part of the backwoods redneck inbred Neb you visit?



Landed in Lincoln and drove along the 80 to visit different Hearth dealers all the way to Ogallala. This was a couple weeks after the Joplin tornadoes and it was still very wet everywhere.


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## slowp (Nov 17, 2012)

I don't get it. Heat from a non-epa stove feels different than heat from an epa stove? Heat is heat. They all throw it out.


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 17, 2012)

Heat from EPA sucks air then puts out BTU radiant heat.

Heat from a non EPA sucks and blows, some cool spots, some hot spots.

When you open a door on a big ass stove you can feel the blast of high heat just like when you open the door of an EPA stove but with EPA its more of a lick then a blast of hot air.


The open door heats my shop 2 times faster then the closed door then after it gets to temp I close the door unless I want to roast a marsh mellows or hot dogs, or steak after after the wood burns down a bid then pop in a heavy skillet steak or throw a grill in their and call it a barbeque. EPA stoves are the cats meow you and I both know it.

But some times that 30/50/100 year old stuff gets it. And some how life seems a little bit better.

Just like going to sleep in front of a roaring fire in a dirt floor pole barn I call a shop.
One day Ill lay down the z pavers, but summer my Harley and I have too much to do.

and in the winter sitting on my ass in front of a big ass fire is too cool to work


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## Fyrebug (Nov 17, 2012)

slowp said:


> I don't get it. Heat from a non-epa stove feels different than heat from an epa stove? Heat is heat. They all throw it out.



You are correct. Wood burning produces 3 kind of heat: radiant, conductive and convective.

For all intent and purposes we refer mainly to radiant & convective. Radiant is infrared emissions. Unlike convective heat it does not heat ambient air but any surface it strikes. For example, when you come in the cold and let yourself warm in front of the fire you mainly feel radiant heat. It strikes your skin and penetrate deeper 'warming your bones'. That's one of the reason people like wood burning.

Convective heat is typically achieved with stove air shields, air mate (heat exchanger) and a blower and much like a furnace it heats ambient air. 

It may be heresy on my part but I have a very inefficient fireplace. We also like the flames, crackle & pop of an open fire. Nothing better on a cold Saturday afternoon for taking a nap on the couch.

My very efficient EPA Osburn inserts downstairs heats the house while my inefficient fireplace upstairs provides entertainment value.


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## Arbonaut (Nov 17, 2012)

EXCALIBER said:


> I sure would trade you!! I was born and raised in Montana (western side, Bozeman) and I sure wish I could go back in time and kick my butt for leaving. I would like to see Canada again someday, hopefully on my way to Alaska to live. Right now I am stuck in this corn-holer state, where I am about the only one who goes outside I swear. The rest sit inside watching the boob tube. What part of the backwoods redneck inbred Neb you visit?



Bozeman is where the Gibson Acoustic Guitars are made, now those are fine. Bozeman got a character all her own IMO. Must be low humidity, You can't make acoustics just anywhere. The finest, too. (And expensive.)


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## NDtreehugger (Nov 17, 2012)

It seems I have this stove figuered out

It has a 8” deep box below the door, the full size of the stove, after this fills up with wood coals, I just keep feeding it with wood on top of the coals, it burns in a slow manner with no smoke. And gives out more then enough heat. Every so often, take the coal shovel, scoop out from under the coal remove the ash and it keeps going. Great stove


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## cmsmoke (Nov 17, 2012)

I have a question. You say your insurance company is OK with your wood stove, even though, to my understanding, that it has been heavily modified, or at least, slightly. How do you know this...Have you ever lost your house to a fire and had a modified or homemade stove installed in it? Did your insurance company pay to rebuild it?
I'm not saying that your set up isn't safe. I hope you have great success in your quest to a better heating device. After all, without experimentation or thinking outside of the box...what would anybody have today? 
Please don't come down on someone for giving a simple reminder. Maybe we aren't all insurance experts, we're just looking out for one of our own. I hope that none of us ever has to find out how good there insurance company really is.


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## allstihl (Nov 17, 2012)

so you know of a "good" ins co


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## Whitespider (Nov 17, 2012)

Well, I've said this before... Insurance companies are regulated by the state, and in some instances by local government.
The simple answer is... go ask your insurance agent; if there's any question, the company will send someone out to have a look at what you have.
Out here in the county where I live, it has to be negligence on my part before they can deny me coverage. As long as the install meets, or exceeds all local codes (such as clearances)... I'm good to go. Modification, or even homemade... as long as they had a look at it (they may require inspection by a third party, or they have the right to require it) and can't prove later negligence on my part... I'm covered. Heck, i can even do my own electrical and plumbing work.

Now if you live on one of the two left coasts, or east of the Mississippi, or west of the Continental Divide... you're probably screwed! (but, I'm just guessin', I don't know that as a fact 'cause I ain't an Insurance Expert)


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## Larry Ashcraft (Nov 17, 2012)

> The stove I have in my house is a wimpy 20 x14inches and heats my 1200 sqfoot house to 80 deg when its -20 outside. with its try to get 2 small split chunks of wood in it 1500 deg firebox.
> Go ahead touch that box. burns 6 to 8 hours holds the coals another 12 or 14. ya my home is warm and I only use 2 cords of wood each year could be 3 on a bad year, but its not like sitting in front of a grand ol FIRE.


My dad grew up in the high plains of eastern Colorado. There was very little wood available for heating or cooking, so they gathered cow chips for fuel.

So I guess you could heat your home on bull####.


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## REJ2 (Nov 17, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> You are correct. Wood burning produces 3 kind of heat: radiant, conductive and convective.
> 
> For all intent and purposes we refer mainly to radiant & convective. Radiant is infrared emissions. Unlike convective heat it does not heat ambient air but any surface it strikes. For example, when you come in the cold and let yourself warm in front of the fire you mainly feel radiant heat. It strikes your skin and penetrate deeper 'warming your bones'. That's one of the reason people like wood burning.
> 
> ...



Fyrebug, if i may ask, you represent several insert manufacturers, correct? My internet research leads me to believe the Osburn 2400 may be perfect for me, affordable, efficient, stylish, what can you tell me about my chosen model good or bad? Heating about 1600 sq. ft. upstairs only.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 18, 2012)

REJ2 said:


> Fyrebug, if i may ask, you represent several insert manufacturers, correct? My internet research leads me to believe the Osburn 2400 may be perfect for me, affordable, efficient, stylish, what can you tell me about my chosen model good or bad? Heating about 1600 sq. ft. upstairs only.



Hi Rej, I dont represent different MFG. SBI makes 7 different brands, one of which is Osburn.

Osburn is our flagship line and we put the most quality/feature set in it. The 2400 is one of the biggest non-cat insert available on the market. So you want to make sure it will fit in your fireplace. It's a heating beast so I wouldn't worry about heating your area. As with most high-efficiency inserts, make sure to use a 6" stainless steel liner and it will provide you with years of use.

Were you thinking of getting it from a local dealer?


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## Fyrebug (Nov 18, 2012)

Whitespider said:


> Well, I've said this before... Insurance companies are regulated by the state, and in some instances by local government.
> The simple answer is... go ask your insurance agent; if there's any question, the company will send someone out to have a look at what you have.
> Now if you live on one of the two left coasts, or east of the Mississippi, or west of the Continental Divide... you're probably screwed! (but, I'm just guessin', I don't know that as a fact 'cause I ain't an Insurance Expert)



My earlier comments on modifications and insurance is partly due to the fact i've never had a happy experience with insurance companies. If they can find a excuse for not covering a claim, they will do so.


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## REJ2 (Nov 18, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> Hi Rej, I dont represent different MFG. SBI makes 7 different brands, one of which is Osburn.
> 
> Osburn is our flagship line and we put the most quality/feature set in it. The 2400 is one of the biggest non-cat insert available on the market. So you want to make sure it will fit in your fireplace. It's a heating beast so I wouldn't worry about heating your area. As with most high-efficiency inserts, make sure to use a 6" stainless steel liner and it will provide you with years of use.
> 
> Were you thinking of getting it from a local dealer?



Found a place in OK, not exactly local, still researching.


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## Fyrebug (Nov 19, 2012)

REJ2 said:


> Found a place in OK, not exactly local, still researching.



If you are a DIY and there are no stores nearby you could always try Osburn 2400 Wood Stove Insert | WoodlandDirect.com: Wood Stoves & Inserts


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## Robby (Nov 19, 2012)

Ronald Reagan said:


> Gassification is the coolest thing going. I wonder though whether the ROI makes it more novelty than reality.



I bought a gassification boiler. Absolutely the best money I've spent in a while. I use dry, I mean very dry wood (8% to 14%) and it burns clean. Because the wood is so dry I do have to be carefull not to load right up initially. Computer controlled, 1/2 load, light, and walk away. After first 5 minutes no smoke,none,nada.


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## REJ2 (Nov 20, 2012)

Fyrebug said:


> If you are a DIY and there are no stores nearby you could always try Osburn 2400 Wood Stove Insert | WoodlandDirect.com: Wood Stoves & Inserts



Thats the place, for some reason i thought they were in OK.


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